# Mass Effect vs Halo vs Starcraft



## C0rnholio (Mar 23, 2012)

These 3 universes go to war. Who wins?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 23, 2012)

The one with the galaxy sterilizing rings.


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## Distracted (Mar 23, 2012)

I don't know if they will casually have those rings at their disposal or be able to position them in such a way as to be able to use them against an opposing force without wiping themselves out.

I don't know much about Halo's star ships or the actual hard numbers of Mass Effects ships, anyone have that information to share?

What of the reapers, are they working with the Mass Effect universe?  Cause they could be the most powerful single entity in this thing outside of the Halo rings, but far more practical and useful


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 23, 2012)

Forerunner shield worlds exist for the sole purpose of ensuring that use of the Halos isn't a M.A.D. situation. Even without the Halos, they can easily steamroll the other two verses. Their ground forces (antique, outdated ones at that) cause damage visible from orbit. Their fleets can detonate stars. They've constructed Dyson spheres and entire planets made of Sentinels, just a few dozen of which can vaporize a Covenant cruiser with one blast.

The main gun on a Reaper apparently tops out at 500 kilotons. That's a joke to Starcraft, much less the Forerunners.


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## Matta Clatta (Mar 23, 2012)

Mass Effect ships outside of the reapers have something like 12LY per day outside of Mass relay travel so that's how fast their ships are. The reapers are something like double this though since they can go from one half of the galaxy to the other in half the amount of time it takes normal ships.


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## Xiammes (Mar 23, 2012)

Covenant baby shake the others easily, and they fight using forerunner mining equipment, they don't even know how to use the real weapons. UNSC would put up a good fight to the others, though would only lose due to overwhelming numbers. 

Of course I know little of SC, so this mainly towards ME.



> Mass Effect ships outside of the reapers have something like 12LY per day outside of Mass relay travel so that's how fast their ships are. The reapers are something like double this though since they can go from one half of the galaxy to the other in half the amount of time it takes normal ships.



UNSC can travel 2.65 ly per day, which is pretty slow. Covenant travel 912 LY per day, and can pin point light jump in small spaces. Forerunner Dreadnought is well over double that.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 23, 2012)

So Mass Effect has terribly slow FTL compared to the other two verses, in addition to generally inferior firepower.


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## Light Bringer (Mar 23, 2012)

The Forerunners at the peak of their civilization inhabited 3,000,000 fertile worlds, were capable of visiting other dimensions, move planets and stars, and IIRC even contemplated shifting the axes of galaxies.

Not to mention, their ships are fucking fast; The Didact's ship traveled tens of thousands of light years in a few hours, and the Seedling Star is supposed to be even faster.

Add the Precursors and their wacky neural based tech to this and you get a stomp of biblical proportions.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 23, 2012)

A singular Onyx Sentinel can produce a megaton of firepower. And the Forerunners have at least one whole planet made of them.

The fact that a Reaper the size of Sovereign is outgunned by a mass produced Forerunner drone the size of a car should say a lot about how lopsided this match is.


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## Distracted (Mar 23, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Forerunner shield worlds exist for the sole purpose of ensuring that use of the Halos isn't a M.A.D. situation. Even without the Halos, they can easily steamroll the other two verses. Their ground forces (antique, outdated ones at that) cause damage visible from orbit. Their fleets can detonate stars. They've constructed Dyson spheres and entire planets made of Sentinels, just a few dozen of which can vaporize a Covenant cruiser with one blast.
> 
> The main gun on a Reaper apparently tops out at 500 kilotons. That's a joke to Starcraft, much less the Forerunners.



That changes my opinion heavily.  I figured Halo would win any ground battle, my only issue was how they would fair in space.  I figured a reaper would be a huge deal in the star craft universe but maybe I'm wrong about that as well.

Either way Halo looks like the clear favorite here, I'll leave it open to see if there are any dissenting opinions, but it sounds like this is case closed.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 23, 2012)

imagine what the Precursors could do


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## C0rnholio (Mar 23, 2012)

Not saying you're lying but could you at post some evidence? a lot of that stuff sounds like wank i mean... travel to other dimensions?...................


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## Xiammes (Mar 23, 2012)

None of its wank, not even in the slightest. Halo doesn't fuck around at all, you should have figured that out when the first game had a galactic life wiper.

Even the UNSC can out gun the Alliance and Reapers, with the Dreadnought dealing about 38 kilotons per shot, which their are only 80 or so Dreadnoughts in the Alliance.  The average MAC gun does around 64 kilotons per shot, every ship has one of these, war ships carry at a minimum of two of those bad boys. Lets try the ODP's, they deal around 5325 megatons per shots, and fire every 5 seconds, with over 300 guarding a planet.

Reapers are said to go down with a combined force of 4 dreadnoughts, with a single warship carrying 2 mac guns which deal nearly double the fire power of a dreadnought, a single UNSC warship can out gun a Reaper.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 23, 2012)

so it's basically Halo > SC > ME ?

is SC closer to Halo or ME ?


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## Byrd (Mar 23, 2012)

The only thing ME probably will win is the ground war... I don't see any ground units in Halo that can take down a destroyer


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 23, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> so it's basically Halo > SC > ME ?
> 
> is SC closer to Halo or ME ?



Probably closer to Halo.


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## Light Bringer (Mar 23, 2012)

C0rnholio said:


> Not saying you're lying but could you at post some evidence? a lot of that stuff sounds like wank i mean... travel to other dimensions?...................



_"The secrets that lie between the streaking particles and waves that make up atoms are said to be vast. From those inner secrets, Forerunners have prodded sufficient power to change the shape of worlds, move stars, and even to contemplate shifting the axes of entire galaxies.

We have explored other realities, other spaces—slipspace, denial of locale, shunspace, trick geodetics, natal void, the photon-only realm called the Glow.

But the vastness between suns is great and mysterious in a very different way."_

*Halo Cryptum - Chapter 10
*
_"The displays tracked our course. We were moving outward along the great spiral arm that held both the Orion complex and Erde-Tyrene—just a few tens of thousands of light-years.

Hours at most would pass for us."_

*Halo Cryptum - Chapter 9*


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 23, 2012)

IF they can go to other realities why didn't they just go to one when the rings went off?
Not really up to snuff on halo.


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## Xiammes (Mar 23, 2012)

> IF they can go to other realities why didn't they just go to one when the rings went off?



Thats what the shield worlds are for, so some did survive.


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## EpicBroFist (Mar 23, 2012)

Pretty sure Halo wins this pretty easily, they are way more powerful than the other verses with the shit they have; MAC guns, ODP's, and stuff like this ......


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## Light Bringer (Mar 23, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> IF they can go to other realities why didn't they just go to one when the rings went off?
> Not really up to snuff on halo.



Actually, they did. Shield worlds are encased in a slipspace field.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 23, 2012)

Light Bringer said:


> Actually, they did. Shield worlds are encased in a slipspace field.


So what happened to the forerunners then?
I don't remember them in any of the games.


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## Xiammes (Mar 23, 2012)

They continued their ventures else where, or they died out on the shield worlds. I don't remember what happened after the halo rings went off.


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## Light Bringer (Mar 23, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> So what happened to the forerunners then?
> I don't remember them in any of the games.



Mendicant Bias revealed the locations of the shield worlds to the flood and everything went to hell.

I'm pretty sure we'll see forerunners in Halo 4.


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## Wan (Mar 24, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> None of its wank, not even in the slightest. Halo doesn't fuck around at all, you should have figured that out when the first game had a galactic life wiper.
> 
> Even the UNSC can out gun the Alliance and Reapers, with the Dreadnought dealing about 38 kilotons per shot, which their are only 80 or so Dreadnoughts in the Alliance.  The average MAC gun does around 64 kilotons per shot, every ship has one of these, war ships carry at a minimum of two of those bad boys. Lets try the ODP's, they deal around 5325 megatons per shots, and fire every 5 seconds, with over 300 guarding a planet.
> 
> Reapers are said to go down with a combined force of 4 dreadnoughts, with a single warship carrying 2 mac guns which deal nearly double the fire power of a dreadnought, a single UNSC warship can out gun a Reaper.



"Outgun"?  Reaper main guns are over 400 kilotons per shot.   That's a good deal more powerful than a UNSC warship.  There is also recharge time and range  to consider.  UNSC ship guns take a minute or so to charge.  Mass Effect dreadnought guns fire every two seconds, so effective firepower output is actually _greater_ for Mass Effect dreadnoughts than UNSC ships.  Sustained fire from 4 dreadnoughts is needed to bring down a Reaper, not just a single volley.  Sustained fire from two dreadnoughts does not bother a Reaper (they have relatively fast shield recharging). A Reaper will survive the first volley from a UNSC ship, but a UNSC ship will not survive the 400 kiloton shot the Reaper spits back in return. 

And chances are that the Reaper will get the first shot anyways.  UNSC ship guns fire a 600 ton round at 30 km/s, while Reaper guns propagate at a fraction of the speed of light and are stated to be effective at ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers.  Reapers can wipe out UNSC battle groups before they get a chance to fire.  UNSC defense platforms are a different story though, I will admit.

Also, every UNSC "warship" has at least two?  Frigates only have 1.  Are frigates not warships, now?

And yeah, Forerunners stomp all over Mass Effect (and Starcraft).  They'd be a formidable adversary even for sci-fi races like the Culture.


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## Xiammes (Mar 24, 2012)

> "Outgun"? Reaper main guns are over 400 kilotons per shot. That's a good deal more powerful than a UNSC warship. There is also recharge time and range to consider. UNSC ship guns take a minute or so to charge. Mass Effect dreadnought guns fire every two seconds, so effective firepower output is actually greater for Mass Effect dreadnoughts than UNSC ships. Sustained fire from 4 dreadnoughts is needed to bring down a Reaper, not just a single volley. Sustained fire from two dreadnoughts does not bother a Reaper (they have relatively fast shield recharging). A Reaper will survive the first volley from a UNSC ship, but a UNSC ship will not survive the 400 kiloton shot the Reaper spits back in return.



UNSC ships don't survive normal shots from Covenant, they know if they are hit, they are as good as dead. Charge time is negated for the fact that every ship in the UNSC has mac cannon, not only a certain few. UNSC also uses nuclear mines.



> Also, every UNSC "warship" has at least two? Frigates only have 1. Are frigates not warships, now?



Sorry about that, almost every warship has at least two


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## Wan (Mar 24, 2012)

All that matters...why, exactly?  And btw Reapers could threaten Covenant ships, as 3 MAC rounds is enough to bring down Covenant shields and 1 shot from a Reaper > 3 MAC rounds.  Doesn't mean they would win a war, but they would put up a fight.


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## Xiammes (Mar 24, 2012)

Are you talking about Nuclear mines? They detonate and even stops Covenant shielding, making them easy targets for MAC fire.


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## Wan (Mar 24, 2012)

Ok.  How does that matter against the Reapers?


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## Xiammes (Mar 24, 2012)

Don't know you tell me, how do Reapers deal with massive EMP waves?


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## Wan (Mar 24, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> Don't know you tell me, how do Reapers deal with massive EMP waves?



A.  They wouldn't trigger it in the first place, as the Reapers would open fire tens of thousands of kilometers away from the UNSC.  You would need literally trillions of mines to effectively mine such an area (just cube 10,000 to get an idea of why).

B.  Inverse square law ensures that detonations in space quickly fizzle out over a distance of a kilometer or more.

C. There is no EMP in space in the first place.


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## Xiammes (Mar 24, 2012)

> A) They wouldn't trigger it in the first place, as the Reapers would open fire tens of thousands of kilometers away from the UNSC. You would need literally trillions of mines to effectively mine such an area (just cube 10,000 to get an idea of why).



You think they lay them close to the planet? Also ODP's have much more range then Reapers, so they will always be in effective range in near planetary battle.



> B. Inverse square law ensures that detonations in space quickly fizzle out over a distance of a kilometer or more.



Not talking about the explosion, the nukes do jack shit to a Covenant shit, they use them to EMP the shields.



> C. There is no EMP in space in the first place.



In halo there is.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 24, 2012)

Well the reaper's were effected by the relay's exploding like a galactic emp.
Though those are supposed to explode and engulf entire solar systems like a super nova when they do.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 24, 2012)

Mass Effect specifically points out that a projectile weapon fired in space has no maximum range, and a Reaper's relativistic lava gun is still a projectile weapon no matter how much it looks like a laser. The orbital SMAC platforms are basically helpless against the Reapers, who can take them apart while staying far enough away to leisurely avoid return fire.


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## Platinum (Mar 24, 2012)

The UNSC slaps together a planet busting NOVA bomb and transports it via slipspace into the heart of the reaper fleet.

Good bye .


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## Xiammes (Mar 24, 2012)

It would be a suicide mission, also UNSC slip space is highly inaccurate, they ofter overshoot their destination by couple thousand kilometers every jump.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 24, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> It would be *a suicide mission*, also UNSC slip space is highly inaccurate, they ofter overshoot their destination by couple thousand kilometers every jump.



Masterchief is onboard so they make it


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## Light Bringer (Mar 24, 2012)

Platinum said:


> The UNSC slaps together a planet busting NOVA bomb and transports it via slipspace into the heart of the reaper fleet.
> 
> Good bye .



Wire that shit to the closest mass relay.

Hilarity ensues


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## Wan (Mar 24, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> You think they lay them close to the planet?



No.  It's just impossible to effectively mine a three dimensional area tens of thousands of cubed kilometers large -- impossible, that is, unless you literally have trillions of mines.



> Also ODP's have much more range then Reapers, so they will always be in effective range in near planetary battle.



What Eldritch Sukima said.  Mass accelerator-type weapons have theoretically infinite range (Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a bitch in space!).  They're only limited by how well your target can evade.  ODPs, as stationary objects, can't evade at all.  Reapers can position themselves far enough away from the ODPs -- a few hundred thousand kilometers, or so -- where they can evade even the ODP's shots while taking pot shots at the ODPs.

If that fails, a whole bunch of Reaper destroyers could drop out of FTL behind the ODPs, land on the defending planet, and take out the ODP's power source.  Heck, full-blown Reaper capital ships can land on planets themselves, but that would probably be overkill.



> Not talking about the explosion, the nukes do jack shit to a Covenant shit, they use them to EMP the shields.



Neither was I.  Any detonation (EMP or otherwise) in space is going to quickly dissipate thanks to inverse square law.



> In halo there is.



I did make a mistake, normal nukes don't generate EMP in space but specific explosives can be made that generate EMP in space (e-bombs).  Still, if Covenant shields fall to this EMP, why would that make Reaper kinetic barriers fall?  They're different systems.


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## Fang (Mar 24, 2012)

Impossible to mine things in a 3-Dimensional space? Not true.

Tell that to the Galactic Empire and Imperium of Man or the Yuuzhan Vong. You just need tactics and coordination to pull it off.


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 24, 2012)

Just a couple of questions I am not too sure with the halo verse been a while but here I go.

How does they handle Ghost/spectre psiconic special ops capable of bending light to cloak, and cause small psiconic storms to stunns enemies not to mention the can drop nukes from orbit?

Secondly I believe the average Marine has a stronger assault rifle than your average spartan or ground soldier in halo?

Ill post more questions as I get on my computer but just like some info how do they handle that.

In the higher tiers SC will get stomp but just curious about a ground battle without the big guns.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 24, 2012)

this probably will be decided in space


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## Wan (Mar 24, 2012)

Fang said:


> Impossible to mine things in a 3-Dimensional space? Not true.
> 
> Tell that to the Galactic Empire and Imperium of Man or the Yuuzhan Vong. You just need tactics and coordination to pull it off.



And author fiat that the enemy fleet flies right into the minefield.  Without that, why would an enemy fleet fly through a particular handful of cubed kilometers with mines out of tens of thousands of other cubed kilometers?  Again, you need trillions of mines to effectively mine such an area.


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## Fang (Mar 24, 2012)

No, you actually don't nor is PIS required.

Most mines in Star Wars (and by proxy as well 40k and other fictions) for example remained dormant around planetary theaters until enemy ships would set off on their internalized IFF with radar contact or the signatures in their sublight engines propulsion, and be registered, blanketing outside of a world's energy shields.

Sounds more like UNSC just isn't as militarily competent as one would like.

Hell the Vong employed dovin basal mines that acted as mass shadows to pull hyperspace traveling ships out of lightspeed and home in on them.


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## Wan (Mar 24, 2012)

Fang said:


> No, you actually don't nor is PIS required.
> 
> Most mines in Star Wars (and by proxy as well 40k and other fictions) for example remained dormant around planetary theaters until enemy ships would set off on their internalized IFF with radar contact or the signatures in their sublight engines propulsion, and be registered, blanketing outside of a world's energy shields.



Just how many mines are we talking about here?



> Hell the Vong employed dovin basal mines that acted as mass shadows to pull hyperspace traveling ships out of lightspeed and home in on them.



That doesn't sound like any sort of practical explosive mine.


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## Fang (Mar 24, 2012)

>Science fiction/fantasy
>Practical or logical

Pick one.

Tens of thousands at most, never heard of anyone seeding millions of kilometers of area in space. Empire and Imperium, usually plant a large amount but not impractical number of various mines around major trade routes, space lanes, near or surrounding communication satellites like Holonet Transcievers and stations, etc...


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## Wan (Mar 24, 2012)

Fang said:


> >Science fiction/fantasy
> >Practical or logical
> 
> Pick one.



If there's no logic to science fiction or fantasy, then there's no point in debating.  So:

>Apply logic to science fiction/fantasy
>Stop debating.

Pick one.



> Tens of thousands at most, never heard of anyone seeding millions of kilometers of area in space. Empire and Imperium, usually plant a large amount but not impractical number of various mines around major trade routes, space lanes, near or surrounding communication satellites like Holonet Transcievers and stations, etc...



Ok, there _is_ a way that mines in space could work -- homing mines.  You may not be able to get the ship to come within a kilometer of the mine, but you can get the mine within a kilometer of the ship.   As far as I know, though, Halo mines don't do this, and if they did that would make them a target for a Reaper's laser defenses.


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## Fang (Mar 24, 2012)

Oman said:


> If there's no logic to science fiction or fantasy, then there's no point in debating.  So:
> 
> >Apply logic to science fiction/fantasy
> >Stop debating.
> ...



Science fiction nor fantasy is purely logical period with their tech or anything else, you know exactly what I mean, don't play the semantics game. Parroting mean isn't helping you either.

And that line of reasoning would mean only hard science fictions would apply. Or races like the Culture and Xelee in that specific case.



> Ok, there _is_ a way that mines in space could work -- homing mines.  You may not be able to get the ship to come within a kilometer of the mine, but you can get the mine within a kilometer of the ship.   As far as I know, though, Halo mines don't do this, and if they did that would make them a target for a Reaper's laser defenses.



Those aren't the only ones. Some others are also automated defensive batteries/guns, etc...Anyway a single kilometer is the UNSC's limit for their mines sensor range? Pretty low-grade stuff.

Though its been awhile since I've read any Halo novels. So yeah, I'm pretty again non-surprised at how most of the tech the UNSC possess is weak again. If I remember right, Shiva tactical nukes were barely in the kiloton range.


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## Light Bringer (Mar 24, 2012)

Oman said:


> Ok, there is a way that mines in space could work -- homing mines.  You may not be able to get the ship to come within a kilometer of the mine, but you can get the mine within a kilometer of the ship. As far as I know, though, Halo mines don't do this, and if they did that would make them a target for a Reaper's laser defenses.



Moray mines do it, they use some weird propellent chemical to make them stealthy. And if those are as powerful as the mines that were used on Onyx, they pack a yield of at least 30 megatons.


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## Wan (Mar 24, 2012)

If the propellant has a chemical reaction that produces heat for thrust, it will still likely be picked up by Reaper sensors.  Stealth in Mass Effect requires heatless propulsion, hull refrigeration, and internal heat sinks.  Otherwise the heat sticks out like a sore thumb in the blackness of space.


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## Wan (Mar 24, 2012)

Fang said:


> Science fiction nor fantasy is purely logical period with their tech or anything else, you know exactly what I mean, don't play the semantics game. Parroting mean isn't helping you either.
> 
> And that line of reasoning would mean only hard science fictions would apply. Or races like the Culture and Xelee in that specific case.



By simply trying to do a versus debate, one is applying logic to the combatants.  There has to be things it can and can't do.

Anyways, regardless of what Star Wars or 40k do, my points still stand unless there's evidence from Halo itself to contradict it.



> Those aren't the only ones. Some others are also automated defensive batteries/guns, etc...Anyway a single kilometer is the UNSC's limit for their mines sensor range? Pretty low-grade stuff.



Defensive batteries are by nature not mines; they're gun batteries.  And I never suggested that a single kilometer is the limit to their _sensor_ range, only their detonation range.

  Inverse square law means any detonation spread out in a sphere will quickly weaken.



> Though its been awhile since I've read any Halo novels. So yeah, I'm pretty again non-surprised at how most of the tech the UNSC possess is weak again. If I remember right, Shiva tactical nukes were barely in the kiloton range.



Ah, they're not _that_ weak, AFAIK.


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## Platinum (Mar 24, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> It would be a suicide mission, also UNSC slip space is highly inaccurate, they ofter overshoot their destination by couple thousand kilometers every jump.



A couple thousand kilometers isn't much when you are talking about something that can destroy a planet . The Nova Bomb detonated a few thousand kilometers away from most of the covenant fleet, still flash vaporized all of the ships that weren't on the dark side of the moon.

Or just throw it on a stealth ship and drive it to the middle or hell get the covenant drop it out. 

Elites have no problem cooperating with humans after the war.


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## Wan (Mar 24, 2012)

The Nova Bomb is an extremely rare superweapon; it's not something they could chuck at the Reapers willy-nilly.


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## Lord Stark (Mar 24, 2012)

Oman said:


> "Outgun"?  Reaper main guns are over 400 kilotons per shot.   That's a good deal more powerful than a UNSC warship.  There is also recharge time and range  to consider.  UNSC ship guns take a minute or so to charge.  Mass Effect dreadnought guns fire every two seconds, so effective firepower output is actually _greater_ for Mass Effect dreadnoughts than UNSC ships.  Sustained fire from 4 dreadnoughts is needed to bring down a Reaper, not just a single volley.  Sustained fire from two dreadnoughts does not bother a Reaper (they have relatively fast shield recharging). A Reaper will survive the first volley from a UNSC ship, but a UNSC ship will not survive the 400 kiloton shot the Reaper spits back in return.
> 
> And chances are that the Reaper will get the first shot anyways.  UNSC ship guns fire a 600 ton round at 30 km/s, while Reaper guns propagate at a fraction of the speed of light and are stated to be effective at ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers.  Reapers can wipe out UNSC battle groups before they get a chance to fire.  UNSC defense platforms are a different story though, I will admit.
> 
> ...



The problem with your theory is that you are talking about frigates, where as the larger MAC guns of UNSC ships likely have yields closer to SUPER MACS.
And what the hell are the reapers going to do against dozens of these?


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## Wan (Mar 24, 2012)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> The problem with your theory is that you are talking about frigates, where as the larger MAC guns of UNSC ships likely have yields closer to SUPER MACS.



Source?  Super MACs are so much more powerful than ship mounted MACs that they rely on power plants on a planet's surface.



> And what the hell are the reapers going to do against dozens of these?



Die, probably.


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## Lord Stark (Mar 25, 2012)

Oman said:


> Source?  Super MACs are so much more powerful than ship mounted MACs that they rely on power plants on a planet's surface.


A good point, I was just going with size.  If a Frigate or destroyer's round does 64 Kilotons, there's no way that a Cruiser would do the same.  




> Die, probably.


In High Charity's defense fleet alone there were dozens, the Reapers can't fight the Covenant.  The UNSC is debatable.
Let's also check this image out shall we.

A single Reaper sized Covenant battleship could match _40_ UNSC ships.  They lost 13 ships.  It took the remaining 27 ships to break through it's shields.  Meaning even if we use your low ball 64 Kilos it took 1.78 Megatons of firepower to bring down a Covenant Battleship.  Now let's power scale and look at the reactor of a Supercarrier...that is 28km long.


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## Wan (Mar 25, 2012)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> A good point, I was just going with size.  If a Frigate or destroyer's round does 64 Kilotons, there's no way that a Cruiser would do the same.



Do you have a source that gives firepower numbers for cruisers?  We know that cruisers have 2 MACs; doubling the effective firepower that way might be the only advantage that they have over frigates in that regard.

Also, the 38 kiloton number for Mass Effect is for 800 meter dreadnoughts.  Dreadnoughts can go up to 1000 meters.  Do I get to say that those dreadnoughts have vaguely more firepower, too?



> In High Charity's defense fleet alone there were dozens, the Reapers can't fight the Covenant.  The UNSC is debatable.



Source?  If the source predates the publication of the game Halo: Reach, I doubt they were the same supercarriers.


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## Lord Stark (Mar 25, 2012)

Oman said:


> Do you have a source that gives firepower numbers for cruisers?  We know that cruisers have 2 MACs; doubling the effective firepower that way might be the only advantage that they have over frigates in that regard.


No but it's simple logic.  A Mac shaft for a Frigate is a few hundred meters where as the MAC shaft for a cruiser is a kilometer.  


> Also, the 38 kiloton number for Mass Effect is for 800 meter dreadnoughts.  Dreadnoughts can go up to 1000 meters.  Do I get to say that those dreadnoughts have vaguely more firepower, too?


Logically they would be more powerful.  Although the Kilimanjaro-class is different than the Everest class, as the Kilimanjaro class has broadside cannons rather than the one central main gun.




> Source?  If the source predates the publication of the game Halo: Reach, I doubt they were the same supercarriers.


No I really doubt that.  In the novels the term Supercarriers have been used twice.  
Dozens of them defended High Charity the Covenant Capital and one served as the flagship of Imperial Admiral Xytan 'Jar Wattinree.  The proof is in the text.


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## Lord Stark (Mar 25, 2012)

Whoops sorry I lied.  
"A hundred thousand probes darted and scanned with winking electronic eyes across the void of tangled nonspaces enveloping the Covenant inner empire. They gathered data and emerged into the cold vacuum, where they were recovered by the hundreds of supercarriers and cruisers in station-keeping positions around the massive, bulbous planetoid that dominated the heavens.
Not a single rock larger than a centimeter could enter this space without being identified, targeted, and vaporized. Autho- rization codes were updated hourly, and if any incoming vessel hesitated for a millisecond with the proper response, it, too, met unyielding destruction.
The High Charity drifted beneath this impervious network, il- luminated by the glow from scores of warship engines."-Halo: First Strike
There were _hundreds_ of Supercarriers protecting High Charity

And to give you a scope of how powerful the Covenant Military was.  The loss of Unyielding Hierophant and it's escorting fleet of 500 was dubbed "insignificant" by the Prophet of Truth


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## Wan (Mar 25, 2012)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> No but it's simple logic.  A Mac shaft for a Frigate is a few hundred meters where as the MAC shaft for a cruiser is a kilometer.



Which means nothing unless you can provide solid numbers on it.



> Logically they would be more powerful.  Although the Kilimanjaro-class is different than the Everest class, as the Kilimanjaro class has broadside cannons rather than the one central main gun.



No.  All dreadnoughts have main central guns.  All warships in Mass Effect have a main central gun, as well as broadside guns.  We just happen to know how many broadside guns the Kilimanjaro class has, as well.



> No I really doubt that.  In the novels the term Supercarriers have been used twice.
> Dozens of them defended High Charity the Covenant Capital and one served as the flagship of Imperial Admiral Xytan 'Jar Wattinree.  The proof is in the text.



Which novels, and when were they published?



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Whoops sorry I lied.
> "A hundred thousand probes darted and scanned with winking electronic eyes across the void of tangled nonspaces enveloping the Covenant inner empire. They gathered data and emerged into the cold vacuum, where they were recovered by the hundreds of supercarriers and cruisers in station-keeping positions around the massive, bulbous planetoid that dominated the heavens.
> Not a single rock larger than a centimeter could enter this space without being identified, targeted, and vaporized. Autho- rization codes were updated hourly, and if any incoming vessel hesitated for a millisecond with the proper response, it, too, met unyielding destruction.
> The High Charity drifted beneath this impervious network, il- luminated by the glow from scores of warship engines."-Halo: First Strike
> There were _hundreds_ of Supercarriers protecting High Charity



Which again makes me think they are entirely different than the supercarrier in Halo: Reach.  If the Covenant has hundreds of these things, why don't they show up in any of the other games?  We only see what are referred to as assault carriers, IIRC, the 5 kilometer ships (which are impressive in themselves).



> And to give you a scope of how powerful the Covenant Military was.  The loss of Unyielding Hierophant and it's escorting fleet of 500 was dubbed "insignificant" by the Prophet of Truth



Context, please? Prophets are also the guys who want to turn on the Halo rings.  He could easily be speaking in the grand sense with regards to their goal, not in a specifically strategic sense.


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## Lord Stark (Mar 25, 2012)

Oman said:


> Which means nothing unless you can provide solid numbers on it.


Low balling estimates still put Covenant Capital ships to have shielding capable of taking on at least 3 reaper Capital Ships.



> No.  All dreadnoughts have main central guns.  All warships in Mass Effect have a main central gun, as well as broadside guns.  We just happen to know how many broadside guns the Kilimanjaro class has, as well.


Proof of the Kilimanjaro class having a central cannon.  



> Which novels, and when were they published?


First Strike, it was published back before Halo 2.  Do you have proof of Supercarriers referring to any other vessel aside from the 28km one?  No, you don't because those are the only Covenant Supercarriers on record.  They only appeared in game in Halo: Reach.



> Which again makes me think they are entirely different than the supercarrier in Halo: Reach.  If the Covenant has hundreds of these things, why don't they show up in any of the other games?  We only see what are referred to as assault carriers, IIRC, the 5 kilometer ships (which are impressive in themselves).


Because they are all stuck on defense duty for the Covenant Holy City.  Given how zealous the Covenant are it makes sense that they wouldn't dedicate their most powerful warships to the Human Genocide.


> Context, please? Prophets are also the guys who want to turn on the Halo rings.  He could easily be speaking in the grand sense with regards to their goal, not in a specifically strategic sense.


The Prophet inhaled deeply, released a rasping sigh, and then asked, "And what of the Unyielding Hierophantl"
"The reports are unclear, Your Grace," Tartarus replied. "The renegade flagship Ascendant Justice was involved, and destroyed. We are unsure what triggered the station's detonation. The recorded communications channels were flooded with system error reports prior to its destruction. The Engineers are saying this is imp—"
The Prophet held up one claw, indicating silence. Tartarus halted midsyllable.
"A regrettable turn of events," the Prophet said, "but in the end, only an insignificant setback. Have the ships that are battle-ready rendezvous with us at the site of the cataclysm."
"And what of the incompetent, High One? The one who lost
Ascendant Justice?"
"Bring him before the Council. Let his fate match the magni- tude of his failure."

Dude the Hierophant's purpose was to conquer Earth, what else do you think they meant?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 25, 2012)

Reapers are overall superior to UNSC ships, which can beat Covenant ships when they have a three to one number advantage, so it really depends on how many Reapers there are.

The Reapers have apparently been doing their thing for a billion years, so if each harvest results in a net gain, there should be at least twenty thousand of them. That's if the population only increases by one Reaper per harvest.


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## Lord Stark (Mar 25, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Reapers are overall superior to UNSC ships, which can beat Covenant ships when they have a three to one number advantage, so it really depends on how many Reapers there are.
> 
> The Reapers have apparently been doing their thing for a billion years, so if each harvest results in a net gain, there should be at least twenty thousand of them. That's if the population only increases by one Reaper per harvest.



*Millions of years according the Vendetta.  And UNSC can win against Covenant fleets with 3 to one advantages _and_ if they have repair and refit stations as cannon fodder.  But even that has limits.  For example Master Chief states in First Strike that 500 Covenant ships would be capable of wiping out the UNSC ODPs and Defending fleets in a single volley of Plasma Torpedoes.
Also, yes the Reapers gain every cycle but they also lose every cycle.  For example at the Battle of Palaven they lost dozens of Capital ships to the Turian Fleet.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 25, 2012)

According to the wiki the Leviathan of Dis is a Reaper estimated to be nearly a billion years old.

And yes, the Reapers don't come out of a harvest unscathed, that's why I said net gain. As in, they presumably gain more Reapers per harvest than they lose. If that's true, there would be around twenty thousand of them at least, likely much more.


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## Lord Stark (Mar 25, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> According to the wiki the Leviathan of Dis is a Reaper estimated to be nearly a billion years old.
> 
> And yes, the Reapers don't come out of a harvest unscathed, that's why I said net gain. As in, they presumably gain more Reapers per harvest than they lose. If that's true, there would be around twenty thousand of them at least, likely much more.



A fair point.  However 20,000 Sovereign class Reapers seems a bit farfetched.  20,000 Destroyers and Sovereign classes I can see being accurate though.


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## Gekigangar (Mar 25, 2012)

Reapers are only that threatening in ME due to a few reasons.

1) They have slightly higher tech than the races they are wiping out.
2) They have the element of surprise when they relay in to the Citadel to wipe out the leadership of the races to prevent any collaborative resistance.
3) Their use of indoctrination to make the various races betray themselves.


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## Fang (Mar 25, 2012)

Actually its more to the fact that they influence all aspiring races after each extinction cycle to use the Citadel and the Mass Effect relays to develop along a technological path that they are already familiar with and acquainted to including the use of Element Zero based weapons and defensive technology.

I think even the ME Wikia explicitly makes it obvious that's how the Reapers are capable of sustaining themselves and winning so many times in the past.


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## Wan (Mar 25, 2012)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Low balling estimates still put Covenant Capital ships to have shielding capable of taking on at least 3 reaper Capital Ships.



...what?  I was asking you for solid numbers on UNSC firepower, nothing to do with the Covenant.



> Proof of the Kilimanjaro class having a central cannon.



From the codex entry on dreadnoughts:

"A dreadnought's power lies in the length of its main gun. Dreadnoughts range from 800 meters to one kilometer long, with a main gun of commensurate length. An 800-meter mass accelerator is capable of accelerating one 20 kg. slug to a velocity of 4025 km/s every two seconds. Each slug has the kinetic energy of 38 kilotons1 of TNT, three times the energy released by the fission weapon that destroyed Hiroshima."

That first sentence applies to all dreadnoughts.  We get the 156 broadside gun number from a separate codex entry:

"A ship's main gun is a large spinal-mount weapon running 90% of the hull's length. While possessing destructive power equal to that of tactical nuclear weapons, main guns are difficult to aim. Because ships must be able to point their bows almost directly at their targets, main guns are best used for long-range "bombardment" fire. 

Approximately 40% of the hull's width, broadside guns inflict less damage and can be mounted with greater numbers and more flexibility. The modern human Kilimanjaro-class dreadnoughts mount three decks with 26 broadside accelerators apiece for a total salvo weight of 78 slugs per side, firing once every two seconds."

Here the Kilimanjaro's broadside guns are specified as an example, but that does not mean that it lacks a main gun.



> First Strike, it was published back before Halo 2.  Do you have proof of Supercarriers referring to any other vessel aside from the 28km one?  No, you don't because those are the only Covenant Supercarriers on record.  They only appeared in game in Halo: Reach.



You don't have proof they are the same "supercarriers" either.



> Because they are all stuck on defense duty for the Covenant Holy City.  Given how zealous the Covenant are it makes sense that they wouldn't dedicate their most powerful warships to the Human Genocide.



That would maybe make sense if they had a handful of the supercarriers, dozens or so.	 But hundreds? No, we should have seen them more.



> The Prophet inhaled deeply, released a rasping sigh, and then asked, "And what of the Unyielding Hierophantl"
> "The reports are unclear, Your Grace," Tartarus replied. "The renegade flagship Ascendant Justice was involved, and destroyed. We are unsure what triggered the station's detonation. The recorded communications channels were flooded with system error reports prior to its destruction. The Engineers are saying this is imp?"
> The Prophet held up one claw, indicating silence. Tartarus halted midsyllable.
> "A regrettable turn of events," the Prophet said, "but in the end, only an insignificant setback. Have the ships that are battle-ready rendezvous with us at the site of the cataclysm."
> ...



"In the end" sounds likw what I was saying before: it's insignificant in the grand scope of their plan.  But either way, 500 ships does seem like tolerable losses to the Covenant.


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## strongarm85 (Mar 26, 2012)

Travel between the mass relays is probably the fastest mode of transportation in any of these verses.

That said Mass Effect verse is outclassed in every other way. The Reapers are the only important factor here.

The strongest weapon available to Mass Effect verse is actually their mass relays. In the event that ME is about to lose a cluster around a Relay, they can intentionally detonate the Mass Relay causing a Super Nova.

The thing about Mass Effect is that there are tons of Mass Relays out there that aren't activated. Whatever civilization built the reapers also built the Mass Relays and put them in every star cluster. The act of activating a Mass Relay links you to other Mass Relays that are also active. The first civilization in each cycle to open the Mass Relay gets a direct route to the Citadel.

Even though the Mass Relays are scattered all over the Galaxy, the races in mass Effect only have access to less than 2% of the galaxy.

In terms of Numbers Mass Effect has fewer capable fighters than Halo, but more than Star Craft.

The technology basis in Mass Effect is very different from Star Craft, but Star Craft seems to have more heavy hitting tech weapons... Unless you count detonating a mass relay as a weapon, in which case Mass Effect verse can create Super Novas by willingly detonating the Mass Relays.

Even with the Halo limited to just the Covenant and UNSC they should win in all of the important categories. The Flood could solo both verses.


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## Wan (Mar 26, 2012)

I don't see how the Flood could do much of anything to the Reapers.


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 26, 2012)

Wonder if the zerg can evolve faster than the covenant ?  infested spartans/covenant


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## Fang (Mar 26, 2012)

Flood wiped out the Forerunners.

Forerunners > anything in ME.


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## Matta Clatta (Mar 26, 2012)

Well that's nice 
I'm sure they had to appropriate Forerunner tech to do it (just like they do with the covenant's or the UNSC's in the halo games)  but as an organic species their tactics would be completely useless against a synthetic race like the reapers. They'd get indoctrinated and harvested and that would be the story of them.


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## Xiammes (Mar 26, 2012)

> Well that's nice
> I'm sure they had to appropriate Forerunner tech to do it (just like they do with the covenant's or the UNSC's in the halo games) but as an organic species their tactics would be completely useless against a synthetic race like the reapers. They'd get indoctrinated and harvested and that would be the story of them.



Depends, if their is a Gravemind existing, he has shown he can easily corrupt AI's, including ones as advanced as Mendicant Bias. The only hard part would be boarding one.

Though that is unlikely boarding one, no way in hell are the Reapers indoctrinated Flood when their is a Gravemind in existence.


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## SpaceMook (Mar 26, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> Depends, if their is a Gravemind existing, he has shown he can easily corrupt AI's, including ones as advanced as Mendicant Bias. The only hard part would be boarding one.
> 
> Though that is unlikely boarding one, no way in hell are the Reapers indoctrinated Flood when their is a Gravemind in existence.



Would Indoctrinated Flood allow Gravemind to possible be able to corrupt the Reapers? Provided he doesn't capture one of them in the first place.


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## Matta Clatta (Mar 26, 2012)

Again 
The gravemind that convinced Medicant Bias to go rampant accomplished that over 43 years. For one AI that's by itself that's a ridiculous amount of time.


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## Fang (Mar 26, 2012)

There is no literal way the Reapers/Geth/Collectors could indoctrinate the Flood given their parasitic nature in the first place.


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## Xiammes (Mar 26, 2012)

> Again
> The gravemind that convinced Medicant Bias to go rampant accomplished that over 43 years. For one AI that's by itself that's a ridiculous amount of time.



Are you going to even compare Mendicant Bias to a Reaper? The AI's the Forerunners have built are fully sentient and Mendicant Bias was the most advanced.


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## strongarm85 (Mar 26, 2012)

Soverign was able to indoctrinate the Rachni, who were an advanced telepathic hive mind species and made the entire race go to war. The Salarians had to bring in the Krogans to win that war and the Krogans were only helpful because of their high reproductive rates and how strong and bad ass they were.

The reapers should be able to indoctrinate the Flood, with or without Gravemind. I just don't think that the Reapers would be able to do it rapid enough.


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## Fang (Mar 26, 2012)

Nein.

The Rachni are nothing like the Flood.


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## Lord Stark (Mar 26, 2012)

strongarm85 said:


> Soverign was able to indoctrinate the Rachni, who were an advanced telepathic hive mind species and made the entire race go to war. The Salarians had to bring in the Krogans to win that war and the Krogans were only helpful because of their high reproductive rates and how strong and bad ass they were.
> 
> The reapers should be able to indoctrinate the Flood, with or without Gravemind. I just don't think that the Reapers would be able to do it rapid enough.



Cool story bro, but even if this were true how exactly are the Reapers going to match The Forerunners combined with the First Human/ San'Shyuum Empire, which was so powerful that it fought the Flood _and_ Forerunner simultaneously, and went as far as being capable of developing a Flood Cure.


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## strongarm85 (Mar 26, 2012)

Depends on what you allow from Halo verse. If your only including the games it could be a fairly potent tool. If your including Halo's Expanded Universe material then the reapers will be getting killed off faster then they can indoctrinate.

Granted, Reapers don't have to actually be present to indoctrinate things. Simply being near a reaper artifact, or a piece of reaper tech, can cause indoctrination to begin. The remains of long dead reapers are more than capable of indoctrination.


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## Lord Stark (Mar 26, 2012)

strongarm85 said:


> Depends on what you allow from Halo verse. If your only including the games it could be a fairly potent tool. If your including Halo's Expanded Universe material then the reapers will be getting killed off faster then they can indoctrinate.
> 
> Granted, Reapers don't have to actually be present to indoctrinate things. Simply being near a reaper artifact, or a piece of reaper tech, can cause indoctrination to begin. The remains of long dead reapers are more than capable of indoctrination.



Forerunner tech would obliterate reaper forces to the molecule.


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## Xiammes (Mar 26, 2012)

> Cool story bro, but even if this were true how exactly are the Reapers going to match The Forerunners combined with the First Human/ San'Shyuum Empire, which was so powerful that it fought the Flood and Forerunner simultaneously, and went as far as being capable of developing a Flood Cure.



From what I remember, the Flood Cure was a joke and the Flood simply stopped attacking the Humans, focusing in on Forerunners only. Its strongly hinted that Flood are either the remains of the Precursors or created by them, which would explain why they abandoned attacking the humans and focused on the Forerunners. It also would explain why Gravemind was able to disguise himself like a Precursor, he even called himself the last of the Precursors.



> Soverign was able to indoctrinate the Rachni, who were an advanced telepathic hive mind species and made the entire race go to war. The Salarians had to bring in the Krogans to win that war and the Krogans were only helpful because of their high reproductive rates and how strong and bad ass they were.



Rachni can't even begin to compare to the flood. Gravemind is the collective consciousness of everyone who has ever been infected, indoctrinating the flood would be useless or backfire as Gravemind would have a direct link to the Reapers. 

The only chance in hell the Reapers would have to indoctrinate is to indoctrinate Gravemind himself, which would be impossible. Even then, its hinted that Gravemind has no real corporal body, as any biomass could become the next home to a collective consciousness to become a Gravemind


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## Byrd (Mar 26, 2012)

I seriously doubt a gravemind would be able to corrupt the reapers and vice-versa... given to this the only thing ME will win is probably in ground combat


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## SpaceMook (Mar 27, 2012)

Byrdman said:


> I seriously doubt a gravemind would be able to corrupt the reapers and vice-versa... given to this the only thing ME will win is probably in ground combat



SC murks ME and Halo barring anything from the Forerunners in ground combat.


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## Light Bringer (Mar 27, 2012)

strongarm85 said:


> The reapers should be able to indoctrinate the Flood, with or without Gravemind. I just don't think that the Reapers would be able to do it rapid enough.



A gravemind turned Mendicant Bias, a contender-class AI especifically designed to eradicate the flood against it's creators. 

No, they would fail miserably.


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## Matta Clatta (Mar 27, 2012)

Indoctrination would work on the flood because they are an organic species with consciousness that can be eroded. Being a parasite does not take away instincts or impulses. 

I don't know how advanced medicant bias is but it seems highly irrelevant. In Halo The more advanced the AI the higher the chance of rampancy setting in. So really taking 43 years to convince such an advanced AI into rampancy really isn't impressive. Another Gravemind failed to immediately corrupt a less advanced Cortana 

A single reaper is composed of a significant portion of a harvested race(the protheans numbered in the trillions and that's just one capital ship) there are like thousands of reapers and a Gravemind who's best feat is corrupting a single AI in 43 years is supposed to easily have them all surrender to him.


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## Xiammes (Mar 27, 2012)

> I don't know how advanced medicant bias is but it seems highly irrelevant. In Halo The more advanced the AI the higher the chance of rampancy setting in. So really taking 43 years to convince such an advanced AI into rampancy really isn't impressive. Another Gravemind failed to immediately corrupt a less advanced Cortana



The AI's the Forerunners developed are fully sentient and was in charge of all Forerunner defenses. It was a 43 year interrogation, that ended with Gravemind convincing it to fight for the flood. Only UNSC AI have a high rate of rampetency.



> A single reaper is composed of a significant portion of a harvested race(the protheans numbered in the trillions and that's just one capital ship) there are like thousands of reapers and a Gravemind who's best feat is corrupting a single AI in 43 years is supposed to easily have them all surrender to him.



A Gravemind is composed of all races assimilated, meaning the Gravemind the Forerunners fought was composed of nearly all species in the Galaxy, which is far above just the assimilation of a portion of a race.

Neither is getting indoctrinated, but its far more likely that Gravemind incorporates the Reapers. Though Gravemind doesn't even need the Reapers, with access to Forerunner, even Covenant tech is far above the Reapers.


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