# MS Sasuke vs Itachi



## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

*Location: Sasuke vs Danzo*
*Mindset: *Bloodlusted.
*Knowledge: *Full
Itachi is "healthy" which means he won't die midfight. Who do you think wins?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Tanto (Mar 19, 2019)

Itachi wins, mid diff. He's just on another level.


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## Cad Bane (Mar 19, 2019)

Sasuke wins by outlasting him. Tsukuyomi working on another MS user is questionable at best, and Sasuke might just break through it. Totsuka Blade can be blocked by Sasuke's own Susanoo. Yata Mirror may be an issue but Sasuke has much better stamina than Itachi so he can keep his Susanoo up longer than Itachi. Sasuke wins high difficulty with Izanami being the biggest threat.


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## dergeist (Mar 19, 2019)

Lord Itachi has a unique skill set and is both an analytical and tactical genius. His speed is also far greater than Sasuke's, he wins mid difficulty at best.


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## weegee22 (Mar 19, 2019)

MS Sasuke pretty much counters a good chunk of Itachi's arsenal. Tsukuyomi and general Sharingan genjutsus no longer works on Sasuke, Amaterasu wouldn't be helpful since Sasuke has Kagutsuchi. While Itachi can only use up to 3 MS jutsus (excluding Susano'o) per fight, Sasuke has a significant advantage chakra reserves-wise. Itachi relies on genjutsu to end fights, in order to mask his limited stamina. Hell, even in Part 1 when he was much healthier, Itachi was already starting to feel spent physically after using Tsukuyomi twice and Amaterasu once in a single day. Not gonna happen vs Sasuke.

Itachi has no choice but to go all-out, and that won't look good for him.

He does have Izanami (that'll work) and Kotoamatsukami from Shisui's crow, assuming he's allowed them, in which case he deffo wins.

Without them, Itachi imo loses more often than not


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 19, 2019)

Sasuke counters Tsukuyomi, has better Amaterasu with Enton, and can fight Itachi nose to nose all day with Susanoo.

Sasuke has tiers better stamina, as well. MEaning this fight becomes a Susanoo slug fest with neither Susanoo able to destroy the other (As Susanoo Durability >>> Susanoo firepower as shown with legit every form of it even with Rinnegan Sasukes PS) so Sasuek just outlasts.

Sasuke can also oneshot Itachis Susanoo if he has to tho...With Kirin. Which is very easily prepped in a battle between 2 Amaterasu users.

So Sasuke counters everyone of Itachis moves until Itachi goes down due to MS strain, or Sasuke bides his time in Susanoo until Kirin is prepped, then oneshots Itachis Susanoo, then oneshots Itachi while hes on the ground temporarily incapacitated.

High-extreme diff for Sauce either way tho.

Also before anyone brings up something like Itachis minuscule physical speed advantage...Sasuke reacted to the Raikages top speed...So while Itachi does have a slight edge in movement, hes not doing anything significant with it as Sasuek has dealt with far faster opponents.


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## Android (Mar 19, 2019)

Itachi beats him.

Firstly, lets address the clearly false argument of any outlasting accruing.
Let's compare:
- Itachi moments before his death, mustered V4 Susano and fought and defeated and sealed Hydra. He was already injured and low on stamina.
- Sasuke's best display with the MS is V3 legless Susano. He used V4 Susano when he was bloodlust, but that was for like 2 seconds.

Whoever thinks Sasuke is gonna outlast Itachi just didn't/couldn't/choose not to read the manga.

V4 Susano w/Totsuka and Yata >> Sasuke's V3 Susano. So Itachi would come out on top in a Susano battle.

Outside of Susano, Itachi is still superior.
He's faster, has better CQC performance going off feats, and better reactions (outperformed early EMS Sasuke). And his clone games would troll Sasuke the way it did with SM Kabuto, but worse.
Amaterasu is useless, both can put the flames out. And Genjutsu is moot.
The way I see it, either Itachi beats him in a Susano battle, or Sasuke catches a nice shadow clone feint and gets killed.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Grinningfox (Mar 19, 2019)

Sasuke wins because he can force the battle into a war of attrition via Susanoo 

The upside is that Itachi will see that Sasuke has MS and won’t waste Chaka on Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi 

I just think that Sasuke can force the issue with Susanoo and keep itachi turtled in his until one drops and I’ll back Sasuke in that 

Extreme diff


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

This is never going to become a Susanoo fight, Sasuke can just prep Kirin and nuke Itachi's Susanoo. CQC Itachi is superior and their ninjutsu is on par. Itachi's Susanoo > Sasuke but I think Sauce with his summon can easily avoid it.


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## Santoryu (Mar 19, 2019)

Itachi solos

finger genjutsu plus kunai slash has a finesse that is beyond the conceptual realm of the younger brother. forest level katons smash through Sasuke's defended, leaving a crack in the purple humanoid. The burning black inferno incinerated all physical matter while the altering dimension of willpower proceed to show themselves. A stationary figure resides upon the chair while a metaphorical world engulfs the man into the abyss of the forgotten.


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 19, 2019)

Android said:


> Let's compare:
> - Itachi moments before his death, mustered V4 Susano and fought and defeated and sealed Hydra. He was already injured and low on stamina.
> - Sasuke's best display with the MS is V3 legless Susano. He used V4 Susano when he was bloodlust, but that was for like 2 seconds.


This is dumb because it acts as if Sasuke and Itachi used Susanoo for the same length of time. Which is bullshit. Sasuje maintains Susanoo through several back to back chapters including through s casual conversation with Danzo.

ALSO, this assumes the only thing Sasuke did was Susanoo spam...Which is also bullshit. Sasuke was seen using Susanoo and Amaterasu at the same time...With no signs of it slowing him down...You point me to where Itachi has ever done that.

It also ignores Sasukes FKS feats where he shit out Chidori, Susanoo, Amaterasu, and enton spam left and right like no big deal.


Android said:


> Whoever thinks Sasuke is gonna outlast Itachi just didn't/couldn't/choose not to read the manga.


Or

Ya know

Just looked at all of Sasukes feats and didn’t misrepresent context like you just did.


Android said:


> V4 Susano w/Totsuka and Yata >> Sasuke's V3 Susano. So Itachi would come out on top in a Susano battle.


Totsuka isnt beyond what Sasuke can tank so dumb argument

And Sasuke has bypassed Yata before so dumb argument 


Android said:


> He's faster, has better CQC performance going off feats, and better reactions (outperformed early EMS Sasuke). And his clone games would troll Sasuke the way it did with SM Kabuto


All rendered moot by Susanoo


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## Trojan (Mar 19, 2019)

Sasuke wins. 

He counters all of itachi's jutsu perfectly well. The best thin itachi has to offer is hist Genjutsu skills which means jack-shit
against Sasuke, so that's 99% of itachi's arsenal is already thrown out of the window

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tanto (Mar 19, 2019)

@Sage light 

What do you think


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 19, 2019)

Itachi  mid dif.

He is faster and more intelligent. He'll make better use of his MS, tire Sasuke out like he did against the Hebi variant and simply destroy him with his V4 if it comes down to it. 

Sasuke has no experience using his V4 as a MS user, he was just getting accustomed to his V3 could only maintain his V4 for literally a second before his eyes almost gave out on him.
Itachi's V4 is superior anyways with Totsuka and Yata.

Kabuto fight EMS Sasuke would be a better match against Itachi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi  mid dif.
> 
> He is faster and more intelligent. He'll make better use of his MS, tire Sasuke out like he did against the Hebi variant and simply destroy him with his V4 if it comes down to it.
> 
> ...


No offense but living itachi has no chance against the EMS.


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi  mid dif.
> 
> He is faster and more intelligent. He'll make better use of his MS, tire Sasuke out like he did against the Hebi variant and simply destroy him with his V4 if it comes down to it.
> 
> ...


Itachi gets fucking destroyed by EMS Sauce.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 19, 2019)

Itachi wins.

This is a perfect example of intelligence>>>power.

There is no doubt Sauce has better stamina and can counter Itachi's jutsus well, but MS Sauce was just too unhinged in combat. I feel like Itachi will control the fight from beginning to end.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> No offense but living itachi has no chance against the EMS.


Early EMS Sasuke (Kabuto fight).

Itachi'd lose to this version of Sasuke. But it won't be a stomp, nor will it be an easy battle.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Android said:


> Early EMS Sasuke (Kabuto fight).
> 
> Itachi'd lose to this version of Sasuke. But it won't be a stomp, nor will it be an easy battle.


I know which version he was talking about, but Itachi has literally no way of stopping the EMS.


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## JayK (Mar 19, 2019)

Normally if it was an IC scenario I'd give Sasuke the win due to basically being Itachi -Totsuka/Tsukuyomi but with better stamina which is the only important stat in this Susano'o stall fest.
Now Tsukuyomi is basically worthless against Sasuke due to similar Genjutsu feats and I honestly have no idea if Totsuka can pierce through Susano'o which is btw also a big questionmark talking about Amaterasu (hence the term stall fest).

Bloodlusted however they will instantly bump out their oneshots and seeing how Susano'o will take too long to form which as a result also negs the possibility of Totsuka for Itachi, him and Sasuke will immidiately opt for Amaterasu and proceed to oneshot each other likely ending it in a draw.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

JayK said:


> Normally if it was an IC scenario I'd give Sasuke the win due to basically being Itachi -Totsuka/Tsukuyomi but with better stamina which is the only important stat in this Susano'o stall fest.
> Now Tsukuyomi is basically worthless against Sasuke due to similar Genjutsu feats and I honestly have no idea if Totsuka can pierce through Susano'o which is btw also a big questionmark talking about Amaterasu (hence the term stall fest).
> 
> Bloodlusted however they will instantly bump out their oneshots and seeing how Susano'o will take too long to form which as a result also negs the possibility of Totsuka for Itachi, him and Sasuke will immidiately opt for Amaterasu and proceed to oneshot each other likely ending it in a draw.


What if Sasuke can neg Itachi's Ama with Kagutsuchi?


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## Android (Mar 19, 2019)

Hussain said:


> The best thin itachi has to offer is hist Genjutsu skills which means jack-shit
> against Sasuke, so that's 99% of itachi's arsenal is already thrown out of the window


Genjutsu is Itachi's specialty. But it's not 99% of his arsenal.

It goes both ways. Literally any jutsu Sasuke has under his belt, Itachi can counter.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> No offense but living itachi has no chance against the EMS.





Zembie said:


> Itachi gets fucking destroyed by EMS Sauce.


Nah, the Kabuto fight version was more or less potrayed on an equal level to Itachi, Summit arc version was clearly weaker.


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## JayK (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> What if Sasuke can neg Itachi's Ama with Kagutsuchi?


Pure assumption if it works on the Amaterasu created by somebody else (and also the reason I said just likely ending in a draw).

So yeah if it works obviously Sauce wins.

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## Android (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> I know which version he was talking about, but Itachi has literally no way of stopping the EMS.


Which is why I said he'd lose. EMS removes all the drawbacks.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 19, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah, the Kabuto fight version was more or less potrayed on an equal level to Itachi, Summit arc version was clearly weaker.



Edo Itachi.

Big difference. Living Itachi cannot maintain that level for that long.

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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah, the Kabuto fight version was more or less potrayed on an equal level to Itachi, Summit arc version was clearly weaker.


Bruh Itachi had more or less an EMS with him being Edo, Itachi is literally going to kill himself white Sasuke stays in his susanoo. EMS is *WAY* too much for itachi


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

JayK said:


> Pure assumption if it works on the Amaterasu created by somebody else (and also the reason I said just likely ending in a draw).
> 
> So yeah if it works obviously Sauce wins.


Yeah thats fair.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 19, 2019)

JayK said:


> Pure assumption if it works on the Amaterasu created by somebody else (and also the reason I said just likely ending in a draw).
> 
> So yeah if it works obviously Sauce wins.


If his Kagutschi works on Itachi's Amaterasu, then it means Itachi can stop Sasuke's Amaterasu as he has the capability of stopping the flames : Spoilers 27 Pictures

So Amaterasu/enton is pretty much a non factor in this fight.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Bruh Itachi had more or less an EMS with him being Edo, Itachi is literally going to kill himself white Sasuke stays in his susanoo. EMS is *WAY* too much for itachi





ShinAkuma said:


> Edo Itachi.
> 
> Big difference. Living Itachi cannot maintain that level for that long.


Edo Itachi didn't use MS more than he did while in he was in his deathbed.
Unless you count Nagato + Kabuto encounters as one which would be pointless as we are talking about a single battle here.

Itachi is a stronger fighter, and his V4 will crush Sasuke'S like a can so it is not like Sasuke can turn on Susano'O and defend until Itachi falls dead.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Edo Itachi didn't use MS more than he did while in he was in his deathbed.
> Unless you count Nagato + Kabuto encounters as one which would be pointless as we are talking about a single battle here.
> 
> Itachi is a stronger fighter, and his V4 will crush Sasuke'S like a can so it is not like Sasuke can turn on Susano'O and defend until Itachi falls dead.


HAHAHHA HE CAN LITERALLY DO THAT, Itachi has NO WAY he can attack Sasuke. Susanoo protects him from Totsuka, and Itachi eventually gets tired and dies. The end. Or gets hit by Kirin or some other fucking jutsu Sasuke has.


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## JayK (Mar 19, 2019)

That's provided they are actually able to stop the flames of each other which there is no solid evidence of they can, but worst case this imo ends in a double death for Sauce.

Otherwise he just plain wins.


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## Gianfi (Mar 19, 2019)

Imo, Sasuke surpassed Itachi only with EMS, as it’s been implied in the manga+databooks. So Itachi wins high diff


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

Edo Itachi > Living Itachi and that's a fact. Edo doesn't suffer from any drawbacks. EMS Sauce drills him a new one neg diff. He can just camp in his Susanoo till itachi dies. MS Sasuke vs Itachi is more fair.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> HAHAHHA HE CAN LITERALLY DO THAT, Itachi has NO WAY he can attack Sasuke. Susanoo protects him from Totsuka, and Itachi eventually gets tired and dies. The end. Or gets hit by Kirin or some other fucking jutsu Sasuke has.



There is no evidence eitherway, but I'm assuming that Susano'O's own weapons have the capability of damaging itself. And Totsuka is a legendary blade, so it isn't a regular Susano'O sword. Consecutive attacks from it will eventually destroy Sasuke's Susano'o while Sasuke's attacks will be negated by the shield of Yata.


Kirin was able to bust a V1-V2 variant. There is no evidence that it busted the whole Susano'O.
Also Itachi has seen Kirin once, if he thinks it is a threat(which it isn't), he won't let Sasuke prepare it. Pretty simple.



JayK said:


> That's provided they are actually able to stop the flames of each other which there is no solid evidence of they can, but worst case this imo ends in a double death for Sauce.
> 
> Otherwise he just plain wins.



I said that in response to Sasuke being able to control Itachi's flames with Kagutschi.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Btw @Comat0se you can show yourself.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 19, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Edo Itachi didn't use MS more than he did while in he was in his deathbed.
> Unless you count Nagato + Kabuto encounters as one which would be pointless as we are talking about a single battle here.



It's the same period of time. Living Itachi is far more limited in how often he can use his MS vs his Edo version. (4 vs 9 I believe?)

There is no doubt Edo Itachi is a far different animal than living. Sustained and multiple MS use with no drawbacks? Living Itachi would be dead with that much MS use in a day.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is no evidence eitherway, but I'm assuming that Susano'O's own weapons have the capability of damaging itself. And Totsuka is a legendary blade, so it isn't a regular Susano'O sword. Consecutive attacks from it will eventually destroy Sasuke's Susano'o while Sasuke's attacks will be negated by the shield of Yata.
> 
> 
> Kirin was able to bust a V1-V2 variant. There is no evidence that it busted the whole Susano'O.
> ...


Everything you just said seems like headcanon to me no offense. Feats of it penetrating a fully armored Susanoo? Yeah Itachi can chill inside his Susanoo. For how long do you think he will be able to do that?  Not too mention Sasuke can block it with his own shield and a sword coated in Amaterasu. Until Itachi runs out of stamina and can't maintain Susanoo anymore and then Itachi dies.


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is no evidence eitherway, but I'm assuming that Susano'O's own weapons have the capability of damaging itself. And Totsuka is a legendary blade, so it isn't a regular Susano'O sword. Consecutive attacks from it will eventually destroy Sasuke's Susano'o while Sasuke's attacks will be negated by the shield of Yata.
> 
> 
> Kirin was able to bust a V1-V2 variant. There is no evidence that it busted the whole Susano'O.
> ...


You do realize that Sasuke can rebuild his Susanoo? Kirin busted Susanoo and there is zero evidence that he didn't. Itachi also can't keep up Susanoo for long with his shitty stamina. I am very curious about how he won't see kirin as a threat, and how Itachi stops this.


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## Tanto (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Btw @Comat0se you can show yourself.



Itachi is faster has more knowledge and more versatile than Sasuke. Even though Sasuke would be able to break out of most of his genjutsu it'd give Itachi minimal time to capitalise.


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Everything you just said seems like headcanon to me no offense. Feats of it penetrating a fully armored Susanoo? Yeah Itachi can chill inside his Susanoo. For how long do you think he will be able to do that?  Not too mention Sasuke can block it with his own shield and a sword coated in Amaterasu. Until Itachi runs out of stamina and can't maintain Susanoo anymore and then Itachi dies.


Sasuke doesn't have a shield on his Susanoo.


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> Itachi is faster has more knowledge and more versatile than Sasuke. Even though Sasuke would be able to break out of most of his genjutsu it'd give Itachi minimal time to capitalise.


Itachi is faster, yea.

Knowledge is debatable and since this is FULL KNOWLEDGE as stated in the OP it doesn't play a huge part.

Itachi is not as versatile as Sasuke, since he is the guy who has shown knowing lightning style, fire style and has a summon who can fly.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> Itachi is faster has more knowledge and more versatile than Sasuke. Even though Sasuke would be able to break out of most of his genjutsu it'd give Itachi minimal time to capitalise.


Speed doesn't mean shit when he can just use Susanoo from the get-go. 3T Sharingan broke Tsukoyomi, no way its penetrating EMS.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Sasuke doesn't have a shield on his Susanoo.


The bow can be used as a shield.

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## Tanto (Mar 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Knowledge is debatable and since this is FULL KNOWLEDGE as stated in the OP it doesn't play a huge part



What Knowledge feats does Sasuke have compared to Itachi? So IT DOES play a part.



Zembie said:


> Itachi is not as versatile as Sasuke, since he is the guy who has shown knowing lightning style, fire style and has a summon who can fly.



Yes he is, Itachi has shown better taijutsu, genjutsu, fire style, clone feints and what not compared to MS Sasuke's jutsu. Itachi can Amaterasu his Hawk no big deal.



Artistwannabe said:


> Speed doesn't mean shit when he can just use Susanoo from the get-go. 3T Sharingan broke Tsukoyomi, no way its penetrating EMS.



Speed does count when he can avoid most of Sasuke's attacks.

I'm talking about MS genius not EMS.... It took time for Sasuke to " break " it. In that time frame Itachi will capitalise. Even Danzo BLATANTLY SAID Sasuke's genjutsu was a far cry from Itachi's.


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## The_Conqueror (Mar 19, 2019)

Fictional Healthy Itachi does win. He is better with MS and has shown good chakra control. Sasuke would likely waste a lot of MS abilities whichitachi would counterv with feints or lesser. thats where experience and knowledge comes into plsy i guess. Lets not forget  Itachi has stronger version of susanoo 

But again the manga version of itachi would loose to peak MS sasuke without a doubt


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Everything you just said seems like headcanon to me no offense. Feats of it penetrating a fully armored Susanoo? Yeah Itachi can chill inside his Susanoo. For how long do you think he will be able to do that?  Not too mention Sasuke can block it with his own shield and a sword coated in Amaterasu. Until Itachi runs out of stamina and can't maintain Susanoo anymore and then Itachi dies.


It is common sense that the weapon of Susano'O would be able to harm it. It is like saying that knights who fought in medieval times couldn't kill each other because steel weapons couldn't breach their steel armor.
Yata and Totsuka are greater items than whatever Sasuke's Susano'O has.
So if this fight comes down to V4 Susano'O vs V4 Susano'O  Itachi'll edge Sasuke out due to his weapons.

But if what you are saying is true and that Susano'O can't be breached by its own weapons then yes, Sasuke'll outlast Itachi.

So at the very worst case you have to acknowledge that I'm 50% right.



ShinAkuma said:


> It's the same period of time. Living Itachi is far more limited in how often he can use his MS vs his Edo version. (4 vs 9 I believe?)
> 
> There is no doubt Edo Itachi is a far different animal than living. Sustained and multiple MS use with no drawbacks? Living Itachi would be dead with that much MS use in a day.



In the same day maybe, but not in the same fight.

You can just check how many MS Jutsu Itachi used and for long he used them in each fight against Kabuto and Nagato and it was less than what he did when he was in his deathbed.  Especially his Susano'O.

The whole "EDO ITACHI HAS INFINITE STAMINA HE SPAMMED MS JUTSU" is fan fabrication which never happened in the manga. If that was the case Itachi wouldn't use his lower level Susano'O in short bursts, instead he'd activate V4 and stay in it the entire time.
Edo shinobi haven't shown any OOC behaviour for the most part with a few possible exceptions.



Zembie said:


> You do realize that Sasuke can rebuild his Susanoo?


Not instantly : 
Spoilers 27 Pictures



> Kirin busted Susanoo and there is zero evidence that he didn't


What we saw around Itachi initially is the Semi V2 : Spoilers 27 Pictures
We also know that V4 can't be formed instantly : Spoilers 27 Pictures

We've seen the activation speed of Susano'O has it's limits : Spoilers 27 Pictures
We also know that neither Zetsu nor Sasuke saw Susano'O until Kirin came down, so Itachi had a very short timeframe to react to Kirin and use Susano'O.
So it is very likely that he didn't use V4 or the shield of Yata.



> Itachi also can't keep up Susanoo for long with his shitty stamina. I am very curious about how he won't see kirin as a threat, and how Itachi stops this.



Kirin requires prep. Itachi has seen the prep. So when Sasuke starts shooting fireballs into the sky Itachi'll press him and prevent him from doing it.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> What Knowledge feats does Sasuke have compared to Itachi? So IT DOES play a part.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sasuke has EMS, A 3T Sasuke broke the Genjutsu like it or not. It might as well be instant break. Don't tell me you think Itachi beats an EMS Sasuke? Btw I advice you to disprove my arguments before you take away rep from me


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> What Knowledge feats does Sasuke have compared to Itachi? So IT DOES play a part.



BUT ITS FULL KNOWLEDGE. IT SAYS SO IN THE OP. You can argue that Itachi is a better tactician than Sauce which I can agree on.





> Yes he is, Itachi has shown better taijutsu, genjutsu, fire style, clone feints and what not compared to MS Sasuke's jutsu. Since when can MS Sasuke fly? don't know what manga you read.


Itachi hasn't shown better Firestyle feats, Genjutsu is useless against a user of the Mangekyou. 
Also Sausage can fly with : 




> Speed does count when he can avoid most of Sasuke's attacks.


In CQC? Yea it matters. No one is fast enough to avoid Amaterasu tho, and lets say that they can't manipulate eachothers Amaterasu. It will just end in a draw.



> I'm talking about MS genius not EMS.... It took time for Sasuke to " break " it. In that time frame Itachi will capitalise. Even Danzo BLATANTLY SAID Sasuke's genjutsu was a far cry from Itachi's.



It took 3T Sauce time to break out of it. Even if Sasuke's genjutsu sucks, there is no reason to think he isn't immune to it since we have been shown countless times that MS is immune to visual genjutsu bar IT. Itachi even said that someone with the blood of the Uchiha and MS can break from Tsukuyomi, so there's that.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is common sense that the weapon of Susano'O would be able to harm it. It is like saying that knights who fought in medieval times couldn't kill each other because steel weapons couldn't breach their steel armor.
> Yata and Totsuka are greater items than whatever Sasuke's Susano'O has.
> So if this fight comes down to V4 Susano'O vs V4 Susano'O  Itachi'll edge Sasuke out due to his weapons.
> 
> ...


Sasuke can instantly invoke the Susanoo again no big deal. Yeah you are _partially_ right, but Totsuka doesn't have any piercing feats so I will count it as a normal weapon. I do think Itachi's Yata is better than the fucking bow Sasuke has tho. Btw do you think that Yata is omnidirectional? Just a question. BTW I honestly think that Edo Itachi wins this battle, so I can agree on that atleast.


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## Tanto (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Sasuke has EMS, A 3T Sasuke broke the Genjutsu like it or not. It might as well be instant break. Don't tell me you think Itachi beats an EMS Sasuke?




This thread isn't EMS Sasuke vs Itachi now is it. I do think EMS Sasuke does beat Itachi, but Itachi will put up a fight.




Artistwannabe said:


> Btw I advice you to disprove my arguments



I did read your arguments, and I did disprove them.


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is common sense that the weapon of Susano'O would be able to harm it. It is like saying that knights who fought in medieval times couldn't kill each other because steel weapons couldn't breach their steel armor.
> Yata and Totsuka are greater items than whatever Sasuke's Susano'O has.
> So if this fight comes down to V4 Susano'O vs V4 Susano'O  Itachi'll edge Sasuke out due to his weapons.
> 
> ...



Okay, you are 50% right. I agree that Itachi's susanoo is superior and never claimed otherwise, but Sauce has the stamina and has the defense to outlast Itachi. Kirin can be also bought down with the flames from Amaterasu. Also nothing is stopping sasuke from launching Amaterasu arrows from his Susanoo into the atmosphere. Itachi hasn't shown any speed feats when inside his full Susanoo. Also Enton Kagutsuchi can be controlled to pierce and attack from a side where the Susanoo isn't covered with the Yata mirror (which isn't omnidirectional).


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> This thread isn't EMS Sasuke vs Itachi now is it. I do think EMS Sasuke does beat Itachi, but Itachi will put up a fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well you -repped me when I was talking about EMS Sauce 
You did not really disprove anything lmao. Did you by chance take away rep because you were....salty?


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## Tanto (Mar 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> You can argue that Itachi is a better tactician than Sauce which I can agree on.



Cool.



Zembie said:


> Itachi hasn't shown better Firestyle feats, Genjutsu is useless against a user of the Mangekyou.



Bee Needed to use Samehada to protect from his katons when Itachi wasn't even @ full power. MS Sasuke's best feat with fire style is using it on Baku.......

Genjutsu, for the most part is useless on a MS user excecpt Tsukuyomi. It'd take time for Sasuke to " break " it. Itachi would capitalise in that time frame.



Zembie said:


> In CQC? Yea it matters. No one is fast enough to avoid Amaterasu tho, and lets say that they can't manipulate eachothers Amaterasu. It will just end in a draw



Itachi can transform into a flock of crows like he did in his fight with Naruto. So he would be able to counter it like that.





Zembie said:


> It took 3T Sauce time to break out of it. Even if Sasuke's genjutsu sucks, there is no reason to think he isn't immune to it since we have been shown countless times that MS is immune to visual genjutsu bar IT. Itachi even said that someone with the blood of the Uchiha and MS can break from Tsukuyomi, so there's that.



I'm not denying he can't break out, just that is doesn't happen instantly in that time frame Itachi will capitalise. Plus, when Itachi was edo, his genjutsu ( not Tsukuyomi ) still worked on EMS Sasuke, so there's that.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 19, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> In the same day maybe, but not in the same fight.



Itachi's limit has always been defined as what he has done in a *day*. Basically since his first appearance.



> You can just check how many MS Jutsu Itachi used and for long he used them in each fight against Kabuto and Nagato and it was less than what he did when he was in his deathbed.  Especially his Susano'O.



Edo Itachi used more MS jutsus than deathbed Itachi. It was not less, not sure where you are getting this. 9 vs 4, or 10 (11 if you could Izanami) vs 5 depending if you count Koto as MS.



> The whole "EDO ITACHI HAS INFINITE STAMINA HE SPAMMED MS JUTSU" is fan fabrication which never happened in the manga.



More than double his living self would probably qualify as spam. Also with zero ill effects.

It is simply a indisputable fact that Edo Itachi used waaaay more MS techs than his living self could possibly use.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> Cool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sasuke was in his 3T form when he got caught by Itachi's Tsukoyomi, in which Naruto fight did Itachi turn into crows? Can you show scans?


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## Tanto (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Well you -repped me when I was talking about EMS Sauce
> You did not really disprove anything lmao. Did you by chance take away rep because you were....salty?



Sasuke can't break out of it instantly. & No I didn't take away rep because I disagree with your opinions, I did that because you were being arrogant and Condenscending.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> Sasuke can't break out of it instantly. & No I didn't take away rep because I disagree with your opinions, I did that because you were being arrogant and Condenscending.


Okay I don't want to argue about why you took away my rep. Seems kinda petty tbh.


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> Cool.







> Bee Needed to use Samehada to protect from his katons when Itachi wasn't even @ full power. MS best feat with fire style is using it on Baku.......


This proves nothing tbh, unless you can show me a scan where Itachi shows a superior feat in this department I am going to disagree.



> Genjutsu, for the most part is useless on a MS user excecpt Tsukuyomi. It'd take time for Sasuke to " break " it. Itachi would capitalise in that time frame.


Sasuke couldn't break immediately because he was with his 3T sharingan. No where is it said that you need time to break from Tsukuyomi.




> Itachi can transform into a flock of crows like he did in his fight with Naruto. So he would be able to counter it like that.



If its the fight in BOS than Naruto was already caught in a genjutsu. And we have always seen that when crows appear, its either for a substitution or its genjutsu.





> I'm not denying he can't break out, just that is doesn't happen instantly in that time frame Itachi will capitalise. Plus, when Itachi was edo, his genjutsu ( not Tsukuyomi ) still worked on EMS Sasuke, so there's that.


Sasuke let himself get caught, and it was Tsukuyomi.


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## Siskebabas (Mar 19, 2019)

What a hell? People debating ems sauce vs itachi? Its like low difficulty fight for sasuke, turns on susano and tires itachi out. Ms itachi vs Ms sasuke should around high to extreme win for sasuke, susano renders both their arsenals useless, so its contest who can hold it longer.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

@Comat0se Hey bud I was wrong, He was in his EMS when he let Itachi get him into a genjutsu. Just saw the panel.


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## Tanto (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> in which Naruto fight did Itachi turn into crows? Can you show scans?



Naruto remains in Sage Mode and enters BSM like he did before


Artistwannabe said:


> @Comat0se Hey bud I was wrong, He was in his EMS when he let Itachi get him into a genjutsu. Just saw the panel.



It's all good. It just proves Ems Sasuke can still get caught.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> Naruto remains in Sage Mode and enters BSM like he did before


 



Comat0se said:


> It's all good. It just proves Ems Sasuke can still get caught.


I don't know if he lowered his guard to get hit by his genjutsu, this feat is kinda weird to me because both participants were willing, and that also means Sasuke can catch Itachi in a genjutsu too.


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## MaruUchiha (Mar 19, 2019)

Itachi is only superior in genjutsu and intellect.. Other than that MS Sasuke is just a slight stronger version of him. Sasuke outlasts


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## Tanto (Mar 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> This proves nothing tbh, unless you can show me a scan where Itachi shows a superior feat in this department I am going to disagree



Itachi caught a perfect Jinchuriki in his fire style twice and said jinchuriki relied on Samehada to protect him. Naruto would have got caught if Samehada didn't absorb it. 



Zembie said:


> Sasuke couldn't break immediately because he was with his 3T sharingan. No where is it said that you need time to break from Tsukuyomi.



Sasuke had the Curse mark in which he doesn't have here. It does take time to break Tsukuyomi.



Zembie said:


> If its the fight in BOS than Naruto was already caught in a genjutsu. And we have always seen that when crows appear, its either for a substitution or its genjutsu.



Then Itachi will substitute out of it, anything a clone can do Itachi can too.




Zembie said:


> Sasuke let himself get caught, and it was Tsukuyomi.



I concede that it was Tsukuyomi, it just proves that MS Sasuke can get caught in it.


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> Itachi caught a perfect Jinchuriki in his fire style twice and said jinchuriki relied on Samehada to protect him. Naruto would have got caught if Samehada didn't absorb it.


Yea, I admit that Itachi's fire style is strong, but this doesn't prove to me that Sasuke has inferior Firestyle.




> Sasuke had the Curse mark in which he doesn't have here. It does take time to break Tsukuyomi.


Sauce doesn't need Curse Mark when he has a superior sharingan to break it.





> Then Itachi will substitute out of it, anything a clone can do Itachi can too.


I don't think you can substitute out of Amaterasu. Also substitution ain't that impressive and can be used by both parties.






> I concede that it was Tsukuyomi, it just proves that MS Sasuke can get caught in it.


It proves nothing since Itachi was also caught in Sharingan genjutsu. They are both immune and can break out immediately unless they want to get caught.


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## Tanto (Mar 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Yea, I admit that Itachi's fire style is strong, but this doesn't prove to me that Sasuke has inferior Firestyle.



What feats does Ms Sauce have to be on Par to Itachi's. He matched used one on Itachi and used fire style on Baku are the only notable ones Sasuke has that I can think of.



Zembie said:


> Sauce doesn't need Curse Mark when he has a superior sharingan to break it.



He had the curse mark and sharingan to break out of it. It still takes time.



Zembie said:


> I don't think you can substitute out of Amaterasu. Also substitution ain't that impressive and can be used by both parties.



Itachi used crows in his fight with Sasuke be could turn into crows to negg Amaterasu



Zembie said:


> It proves nothing since Itachi was also caught in Sharingan genjutsu. They are both immune and can break out immediately unless they want to get caught.



 It took Sasuke multiple panels to break out it didn't happen instantly.


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## Tanto (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> I don't know if he lowered his guard to get hit by his genjutsu, this feat is kinda weird to me because both participants were willing, and that also means Sasuke can catch Itachi in a genjutsu too.



Itachi would be able to break out of it. Sasuke doesn't have as many feats as Itachi with Genjutsu. He used crows in his fight with Sasuke he could hse them again to get rid of Amaterasu.


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> What feats does Ms Sauce have to be on Par to Itachi's. He matched used one on Itachi and used fire style on Baku are the only notable ones Sasuke has that I can think of.







> He had the curse mark and sharingan to break out of it. It still takes time.



And was missing the MS, which is superior to CS+Base Sharingan.



> Itachi used crows in his fight with Sasuke be could turn into crows to negg Amaterasu


Yea, and that is the substitution jutsu or when a clone gets killed he turns into crows. Substitution isn't the same as disintegrating and disappearing.





> It took Sasuke multiple panels to break out it didn't happen instantly.


Already addressed this above.


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## Tanto (Mar 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Already addressed this above



Yeah, I did too.



Zembie said:


> Yea, and that is the substitution jutsu or when a clone gets killed he turns into crows. Substitution isn't the same as disintegrating and disappearing.



Can you prove it was substitution? or that it was a clone? That was him using the crows. In the databook it says he can materialise into crows


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> Yeah, I did too.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you prove it was substitution? or that it was a clone? That was him using the crows. In the databook it says he can materialise into crows


Sadly, I can't believe the databook until he was shown using it himself. It was either a clone or genjutsu. Also CS+Sharingan < MS which you haven't addressed at all.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> Can you prove it was substitution? or that it was a clone? That was him using the crows. In the databook it says he can materialise into crows



I thought it was his cloning technique? Where does the databook indicate Itachi himself can turn into crows?


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## Tanto (Mar 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Sadly, I can't believe the databook until he was shown using it himself. It was either a clone or genjutsu. Also CS+Sharingan < MS which you haven't addressed at all.



The databook is a reliable source written by Kishi. Only some parts of it aren't reliable. What was said about the crows doesn't deviate from it being reliable. The curse mark is senjutsu, it grants you more chakra and physical capabilites. Sasuke won't have the extra chakra reserves. I never doubted he couldn't breka it, just that is doesn't happen instantly. Especially when we see EMS Sasuke vulnerable to it.


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> The databook is a reliable source written by Kishi. Only some parts of it aren't reliable. What was said about the crows doesn't deviate from it being reliable. The curse mark is senjutsu, it grants you more chakra and physical capabilites. Sasuke won't have the extra chakra reserves. I never doubted he couldn't breka it, just that is doesn't happen instantly. Especially when we see EMS Sasuke vulnerable to it.



The databook is not reliable in every instance, also showing a scan where it is said that he can disintegrate with his crow jutsu will be helpful. Doesn't matter what CS gives you when MS is the way to counter Itachi's most powerful genjutsu.


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## Tanto (Mar 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> also showing a scan where it is said that he can disintegrate with his crow jutsu will be helpful. Doesn't matter what CS gives you when MS is the way to counter Itachi's most powerful genjutsu



@ShinAkuma
Itachi Materialises into crows here September 24, 2018, 10:04 AM

September 24, 2018, 10:04 AM


Sasuke can counter it, but he break out of it right away. It would be enough time for Itachi to land a  finishing hit.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 19, 2019)

Comat0se said:


> @ShinAkuma
> Itachi Materialises into crows here September 24, 2018, 10:04 AM
> 
> September 24, 2018, 10:04 AM



That's just a clone homie.

*Crow Clone Technique (烏分身の術, Karasu Bunshin no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, C-rank, Supplementary
User: Uchiha Itachi

A human-shaped servant is created for get-togethers, inheriting his master's powers!!

A technique that produces a clone by projecting one's own chakra towards dozens of "crows". Because it uses crows as an medium, it requires less chakra then the normal "Shadow Clone Technique," while still being able to perform techniques.

[picture of Sasuke being surrounded by the crows from Itachi's Crow Clone]
→↓The dozens of crows come together to form the body of a clone. When the chakra projected by the user is severed, the crows disperse.
[picture of Itachi's Crow Clone flying apart in front of Naruto]*

It might not even be a clone after reviewing the chapter. Most of that fight was an illusion.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Itachi's limit has always been defined as what he has done in a *day*. Basically since his first appearance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Itachi's limit is defined by his stamina like everyone else. And there is a jutsu usage limit for every shinobi per "rest". "Rest" being the time it takes for them to replenish their stamina/chakra.

Due to Edo regen he may have rejuvenated his stamina alot faster than normally between the Nagato and Kabuto battles, but the fact remains that they are two seperate battles. So Itachi didn't spam any MS jutsu in OOC fashion per battle.

When you evaluate Itachi vs Sasuke and Itachi vs Nagato/Kabuto battles individually(as they should be evaluated), there is nothing Edo Itachi done in regards to jutsu usage that the living version wouldn't be able to do.



Zembie said:


> Okay, you are 50% right. I agree that Itachi's susanoo is superior and never claimed otherwise, but Sauce has the stamina and has the defense to outlast Itachi. Kirin can be also bought down with the flames from Amaterasu. Also nothing is stopping sasuke from launching Amaterasu arrows from his Susanoo into the atmosphere. Itachi hasn't shown any speed feats when inside his full Susanoo. Also Enton Kagutsuchi can be controlled to pierce and attack from a side where the Susanoo isn't covered with the Yata mirror (which isn't omnidirectional).


That is a good point, he can probably use Susano'O arrows as a source of heat, but then like I said, it is doubtful he can simply ignore Itachi's offense and focus on shooting arrows in the sky. Not that Kirin would accomplish much here. Itachi already defended himself even when he had no knowledge. He can preemptively use V4 Susano'O and yata to completely negate it this time around.

As for Yata :
September 24, 2018, 10:04 AM
While it looks like the middle part has a definite shape, the other bits seem to have the capability to extend. They look etheral, almost like a flame.
September 24, 2018, 10:04 AM
It looks like it can cover the sides as well, as the outline of the shield clearly extends to the sides.



Artistwannabe said:


> Sasuke can instantly invoke the Susanoo again no big deal. Yeah you are _partially_ right, but Totsuka doesn't have any piercing feats so I will count it as a normal weapon. I do think Itachi's Yata is better than the fucking bow Sasuke has tho. Btw do you think that Yata is omnidirectional? Just a question. BTW I honestly think that Edo Itachi wins this battle, so I can agree on that atleast.


I never claimed that Totsuka has any special piercing feats. I'd simply place it over a generic Susano'O sword simply because it is the only Susano'O weapon that has hype that goes beyond Susano'O.
But yeah if you are looking for proof I don't have them.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I never claimed that Totsuka has any special piercing feats. I'd simply place it over a generic Susano'O sword simply because it is the only Susano'O weapon that has hype that goes beyond Susano'O.
> But yeah if you are looking for proof I don't have them.


Then, I will count it as a normal weapon that has a sealing jutsu in it.


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## Ishmael (Mar 19, 2019)

Sasuke edges, better amaterasu use, he showed more resilience with the eye imo as far as the techs he was using and how long he chose to use them. Genjutsu isn't much of an issue, especially now that they're both MS users, cqc is in sasukes favor due to his quick raiton attacks. So yeah MS sasuke high diffs.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 19, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi's limit is defined by his stamina like everyone else. And there is a jutsu usage limit for every shinobi per "rest". "Rest" being the time it takes for them to replenish their stamina/chakra.



Itachi's living stamina appears to be 4 MS techs in a day.



> Due to Edo regen he may have rejuvenated his stamina alot faster than normally between the Nagato and Kabuto battles, but the fact remains that they are two seperate battles. So Itachi didn't spam any MS jutsu in OOC fashion per battle.



Within a day. Still executes 7 MS jutsus against Kabuto. No matter how you slice it Edo Itachi can use more MS jutsus than Living.



> When you evaluate Itachi vs Sasuke and Itachi vs Nagato/Kabuto battles individually(as they should be evaluated), there is nothing Edo Itachi done in regards to jutsu usage that the living version wouldn't be able to do.



Categorically wrong.

Kabuto fight Itachi used 7 MS Techs, 8 if you count Izanami. (with no indication of requiring stoppage or rest) He used maybe 5, being generous, on his deathbed and could previously only use 4 before needing rest.

It's simply a numbers game. More jutsus + no drawbacks vs less jutsus + severe drawbacks or death.

Edo Itachi is capable of much more than Living Itachi. Simply a fact.


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> That's just a clone homie.
> 
> *Crow Clone Technique (烏分身の術, Karasu Bunshin no Jutsu)
> Ninjutsu, C-rank, Supplementary
> ...


Not even a clone, the first time was Genjutsu and the second time was Tsukoyomi. Both were genjutsu. But yea, when Itachi's clone gets punked they turn intro crows like when Sasuke took down a clone with chidori eiso.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Itachi's living stamina appears to be 4 MS techs in a day.


You mean deathbed Itachi. 
Also  we have to specify that the 4th MS technique being Susano'O and the strain it puts on the body/chakra levels is 100% dependant on the duration it is used for and the stages that are used(V1,V2,V3,V4), rather than the times it is used.  Using V1 ribcage three or four times for short bursts is definitely not more taxing than using V4 once for 30 seconds. A very, very important detail we shouldn't omit.

+ Other stuff he used and the wounds he sustained obviously played a role on his condition as well.



> Within a day. Still executes 7 MS jutsus against Kabuto. No matter how you slice it Edo Itachi can use more MS jutsus than Living.


Chapter 577 :  Flash activated Susano'o fist twice.
Chapter 579 : 10-15 sec partial V2-V3
Chapter 580 :  Flash activated Fist once.  5-8 Sec V3
Chapter 582 :  Flash activated Fist once.
Chapter 585 : 1 Amaterasu, brief V2(5-10 sec max), 1 Tsukiyomi, Flash activated V1(2-3 sec)

So I absolutely have no idea how this transfers to 7 MS jutsu.

First off, he never used Susano'O V4. Which is the most taxing version(as stated and shown by Sasuke).
The total Susano'O usage doesn't probably exceed a minute(being overly generous), which is just about the same amount of time he used it against Sasuke but the difference is Edo Itachi used mostly the Lower variants.

We also have to note that his Tsukiyomi should be less taxing than usual, as there is quite a difference between the 72 hour version and the 24 hour one. He was panting heavily after he used it on Kakashi but not only he wasn't pating after he used it on Sasuke but he pretty much immediately started running as well.
So just as the experience of Tsukiyomi varies, so should the chakra investment.

So we have 1 Amaterasu, 1 Tsukiyomi and approximately a minute of Susano'O usage, mostly on the most basic stages. How is this more than what he used against Sasuke ? 



> Kabuto fight Itachi used 7 MS Techs, 8 if you count Izanami. (with no indication of requiring stoppage or rest) He used maybe 5, being generous, on his deathbed and could previously only use 4 before needing rest.
> It's simply a numbers game. More jutsus + no drawbacks vs less jutsus + severe drawbacks or death.


He used 3 MS techs.
Izanami isn't a MS tech. But if you want to put it out there, Itachi used other stuff against Sasuke as well. 

The main problem I'm seeing with the Itachi debates is that people take his performance against Sasuke as his baseline. Whereas in reality, we were told by Zetsu and Obito that it was the exception. 

He was terminally ill, probably living his last days or weeks going by Obito's words, and he was holding back on top of it. It is clearly the outlier, not the norm.



> [
> Edo Itachi is capable of much more than Living Itachi. Simply a fact.



Having the capability of doing something and actually doing something are two seperate concepts.

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (Mar 19, 2019)

Itachi cuts Sasukes Susano in half with totsuka. Sasukes susano does not have the durability of a field of Sage boosted Kimimaro bones which Itachi cut in half effortlessly. Sasuke dies in one or 2 hits.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (Mar 19, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Itachi solos
> 
> finger genjutsu plus kunai slash has a finesse that is beyond the conceptual realm of the younger brother. forest level katons smash through Sasuke's defended, leaving a crack in the purple humanoid. The burning black inferno incinerated all physical matter while the altering dimension of willpower proceed to show themselves. A stationary figure resides upon the chair while a metaphorical world engulfs the man into the abyss of the forgotten.



Sage is that you?


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Itachi cuts Sasukes Susano in half with totsuka. Sasukes susano does not have the durability of a field of Sage boosted Kimimaro bones which Itachi cut in half effortlessly. Sasuke dies in one or 2 hits.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 19, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You mean deathbed Itachi.



No I mean living Itachi.

Part 1 he could use 4 MS techs before shutting down his sharingan and resting. "Deatbed" Itachi used 5 techs and dies.



> Also  we have to specify that the 4th MS technique being Susano'O and the strain it puts on the body/chakra levels is 100% dependant on the duration it is used for and the stages that are used(V1,V2,V3,V4), rather than the times it is used.  Using V1 ribcage three or four times for short bursts is definitely not more taxing than using V4 once for 30 seconds. A very, very important detail we shouldn't omit.



I have omitted nothing.

He needed to shut down his sharingan in part 1 uses zero Susanoo. While I agree Susanoo usage is taxing, possibly more so that other MS techs, but his living limit without putting himself in danger has always been 4.



> + Other stuff he used and the wounds he sustained obviously played a role on his condition as well.



Sure...? Speculation as to what level.




> Chapter 577 :  Flash activated Susano'o fist twice. = 2
> Chapter 579 : 10-15 sec partial V2-V3 = 3
> Chapter 580 :  Flash activated Fist once.  5-8 Sec V3 = 4
> Chapter 582 :  Flash activated Fist once. = 5
> ...



Uh....you just listed 9 uses??????



> First off, he never used Susano'O V4. Which is the most taxing version(as stated and shown by Sasuke).
> The total Susano'O usage doesn't probably exceed a minute(being overly generous), which is just about the same amount of time he used it against Sasuke but the difference is Edo Itachi used mostly the Lower variants.
> 
> We also have to note that his Tsukiyomi should be less taxing than usual, as there is quite a difference between the 72 hour version and the 24 hour one. He was panting heavily after he used it on Kakashi but not only he wasn't pating after he used it on Sasuke but he pretty much immediately started running as well.
> ...



Itachi activated various levels of Susanoo 7 times in that fight!?

I think you forget what the premise of your argument is?

Let's recap - *The whole "EDO ITACHI HAS INFINITE STAMINA HE SPAMMED MS JUTSU" is fan fabrication which never happened in the manga.*

It's not fanfiction, obviously. Even by YOUR OWN COUNT. When the "fans" say he spammed MS techs they mean;

Chapter 577 :  Flash activated Susano'o fist twice. = 2
Chapter 579 : 10-15 sec partial V2-V3 = 3
Chapter 580 :  Flash activated Fist once.  5-8 Sec V3 = 4
Chapter 582 :  Flash activated Fist once. = 5
Chapter 585 : 1 Amaterasu, brief V2(5-10 sec max), 1 Tsukiyomi, Flash activated V1(2-3 sec) = 9

There is logically some strain and chakra investment in using Susanoo relentlessly, (tunring off and on over and over) otherwise Itachi would have used it more when alive or MS Sasuke wouldn't have gone instantly blind. Itachi used Susanoo more in the Kabuto fight than MS Sauce did before he got EMS, and look what happened to Sasuke?

I'm not even sure what you're attempting to argue? Edo is capable of far more than living and has *demonstrated* far more. No drawbacks no ill effects from MS use. Seems pretty clear.



> The main problem I'm seeing with the Itachi debates is that people take his performance against Sasuke as his baseline. Whereas in reality, we were told by Zetsu and Obito that it was the exception.



You assume this was in relation to his MS use. Part 1 disproves that notion. Obviously Itachi's *performance* was hindered due to health but that doesn't mean his MS use would be capable of increasing. (refer to part 1)



> He was terminally ill, probably living his last days or weeks going by Obito's words, and he was holding back on top of it. It is clearly the outlier, not the norm.



The argument at hand has nothing to do with performance. We are discussing his ability to use his MS, which we know is limited to 4 or 5 uses.

If you are arguing he can perform better in a fight than he showed on his deathbed? Sure, I don't disagree. If you are arguing that he can use his MS in the same manner Edo Itachi did? Not a chance.


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## Santoryu (Mar 19, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Sage is that you?


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## Bookworm (Mar 19, 2019)

@ThirdRidoku who do you think wins?


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## Phenomenon (Mar 19, 2019)

Itachi High end difficulty.

Better physicals except stamina but we have seen Itachi last much longer than he should and is carefully strategic enough to not waste chakra unnecessarily.

Itachi's Susanoo is superior also and his Amaterasu could cancel out Sasuke's variant if need be, Genjutsu is obviously out of the picture here but that's fine because Itachi doesn't need it, Itachi is also a master of clone feinting and could catch Sasuke off guard based on his performances against a SM user.

Sasuke can outlast at best but I'd give Itachi the solid win 6-7/10.


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## JJ Baloney (Mar 19, 2019)

I lean to Itachi. I think he'll use Izanami if they both exhaust themselves.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Itachi cuts Sasukes Susano in half with totsuka. Sasukes susano does not have the durability of a field of Sage boosted Kimimaro bones which Itachi cut in half effortlessly. Sasuke dies in one or 2 hits.



Fodder samurai could cut Kimimaro's bones.

Anyways, Sasuke outlasts. Hammering Itachi with Kirin (which takes no chakra to actually use) is a helpful tactic to gain the edge in the battle of attrition. Itachi straight-up has no offensive tools to even budge Sasuke.

Manga portrayal also dictates Sasuke surpassed Itachi with his own MS, just as Naruto surpassed Jiraiya with Sage Mode.


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## Ishmael (Mar 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> There is no doubt Sauce has better stamina and can counter Itachi's jutsus well, but MS Sauce was just too unhinged in combat.



This is something to consider, I'm one of the main people who prefer hebi because he was more tactical and balanced and here I am forgetting something like this.

Very good point bro.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

Bookworm said:


> @ThirdRidoku who do you think wins?


I bet my fucking ass that he's cooking up a post with 100000 manga pages and is writing a whole motherfucking essay on his thoughts. Can't wait!!!


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## kokodeshide (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


>


yes? That's what happens unless you can say his Susano is more durable.


ATastyMuffin said:


> Fodder samurai could cut Kimimaro's bones.


No, they cut into a little bit of a THIN layer of his bones. These same swords matched Sasukes btw. 



ATastyMuffin said:


> Anyways, Sasuke outlasts. Hammering Itachi with Kirin (which takes no chakra to actually use) is a helpful tactic to gain the edge in the battle of attrition. Itachi straight-up has no offensive tools to even budge Sasuke.


Kirin is negged by the Yata mirror, and the fight doesnt last long enough for kirin to appear anyway.

Danzos wind jutsu busted the back of Susano open, Sasuke is getting cleaved in half.


ATastyMuffin said:


> Manga portrayal also dictates Sasuke surpassed Itachi with his own MS, just as Naruto surpassed Jiraiya with Sage Mode.


No it doesn't. Manga portrayal has Itachi somewhere around KCM Naruto which is > SM Naruto which is >= MS Sasuke.
The manga even has itachi matching EMS sasuke. 
Also, its said that with EMS he surpassed him, not MS.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> yes? That's what happens unless you can say his Susano is more durable


No, I mean, where did you even get that from?


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> *Location: Sasuke vs Danzo
> Mindset: *Bloodlusted.
> *Knowledge: *Full
> Itachi is "healthy" which means he won't die midfight. Who do you think wins?



Sasuke dominates.


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## kokodeshide (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> No, I mean, where did you even get that from?


explosion
Right here.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> explosion
> Right here.


Okay, but how does he have less durability than kimimaro's bones? That's what I don't get.


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## Shazam (Mar 19, 2019)

With these stips,  Sasuke has all the advantages outside of intellect perhaps.


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## blk (Mar 19, 2019)

Technically Koto isn't restricted so Itachi could win just with that.

But excluding that, either Sasuke outlasts Itachi or the latter wins with Izanami. Full knowledge makes it hard for Itachi to land Izanami, but it's not impossible considering how better he is than Sasuke at tactics.

Also Sasuke won't outlast Itachi easily, he is generally very wasteful while Itachi is much more conservative, which means his older brother could compensate the lower stamina with a strategic use of abilities.

It's a 50/50, if knowledge wasn't full Itachi would win more than not with Izanami (not considering Koto btw).


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## Zembie (Mar 19, 2019)

@blk Technically Itachi's koto is in Naruto's mouth.


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## blk (Mar 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> @blk Technically Itachi's koto is in Naruto's mouth.



Depends if we assume that this is Itachi after that instance. Obviously these hypothetical battles don't follow any timeline of the manga, which is why it has to be specified.
Otherwise it's fair to suppose that a character has all of his abilities at his disposal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 19, 2019)

blk said:


> Depends if we assume that this is Itachi after that instance. Obviously these hypothetical battles don't follow any timeline of the manga, which is why it has to be specified.
> Otherwise it's fair to suppose that a character has all of his abilities at his disposal.


Shishui’s eye was not active when Itachi died. It was on its ten year cool down until after Itachi died.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> No I mean living Itachi.
> 
> Part 1 he could use 4 MS techs before shutting down his sharingan and resting. "Deatbed" Itachi used 5 techs and dies.
> 
> ...


I don't think it is fair to make an argument based on part 1 stamina levels. That is pre-power inflation when Kakashi's daily limit for Raikiri was 4 and using sharingan for a couple of minutes drained him. 

Eitherway, Itachi used more jutsu in his deathbed in part 2 than what he had seen from him in part 1, so I'm not sure why you think part 1 incarnation should be the limiter here.

I think using his part 1 incarnation is only useful to discredit  the "sick Itachi" fan fabrication.
In part 1 he used MS(and other stuff) to the extend that he had to turn off his sharingan and rest, and there were no physical detriments to his health(seeing as he was physically capable of running still) as opposed to keeling over and coughing blood after using 3 MS(which wasn't even his limit) in part 2.



> Sure...? Speculation as to what level.


Sure but we can't ignore the fact that those jutsu cost him chakra.
We can't exactly claim that 3 or 4 MS is his limit if there are other variables involved. That's all I'm saying.



> Uh....you just listed 9 uses??????
> 
> 
> Itachi activated various levels of Susanoo 7 times in that fight!?
> ...



Susano'O is an activation type technique, the longer it is activated, the more it drains.  And the taxation is amplified by the level of the Susano'O that is being used. These are directly stated and shown.

There is no evidence that turning it on and off briefly will be as taxing  as turning it on and maintaining it for longer periods of time while using higher levels. 

I think the flash activation points to the the contrary. It is more economic to use it on lower levels for small bursts than to materialize higher levels and maintain them. 



> There is logically some strain and chakra investment in using Susanoo relentlessly, (tunring off and on over and over) otherwise Itachi would have used it more when alive or MS Sasuke wouldn't have gone instantly blind. Itachi used Susanoo more in the Kabuto fight than MS Sauce did before he got EMS, and look what happened to Sasuke?



Itachi only got a chance to show it in the Sasuke fight and he simply used it as a trump card.
If Itachi used it against Sasuke like he used it against Nagato or Kabuto he'd kill him quicky, which would be the opposite of what he wanted to do. So I don't consider that as a proof to why he didn't use Susano'O the way he used it when he was an edo. You are basically discarding a very important variable here; he was holding back.

As for Sasuke, he actually used V3 and V2 and maintained them throughout the majority of the Danzo fight(good 5-6 minutes as he deactivated it when Danzo had 3 eyes left).
Link removed
Link removed

That probably exceeds the total of Itachi's displays.



> I'm not even sure what you're attempting to argue? Edo is capable of far more than living and has *demonstrated* far more. No drawbacks no ill effects from MS use. Seems pretty clear.


I'm arguing that his usage per battle wasn't  above what he had used when his alive.

It doesn't matter if he rejuvenated between battles as the time that passed between those battles is irrelevant. 



> You assume this was in relation to his MS use. Part 1 disproves that notion. Obviously Itachi's *performance* was hindered due to health but that doesn't mean his MS use would be capable of increasing. (refer to part
> 
> The argument at hand has nothing to do with performance. We are discussing his ability to use his MS, which we know is limited to 4 or 5 uses.


Itachi used more stuff in his deathbed than he used in part 1.
And we know for a fact that he wasn't in his deathbed in part 1 because he didn't keel over and die upon reaching his limits.

So clearly his capacity from part 1 to part 2 increased, just like everyone elses did.



> [
> 
> If you are arguing he can perform better in a fight than he showed on his deathbed? Sure, I don't disagree. If you are arguing that he can use his MS in the same manner Edo Itachi did? Not a chance.



I never said he can use it in the same manner as Edo Itachi.

I only said that his jutsu usage per battle didn't exceed what he has shown against Sasuke.
I don't care if he can immediately regenerate all lost chakra right after the battle ends. 
I'm not talking about capability here. I'm talking about actual display.


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## Bookworm (Mar 19, 2019)

@ShinAkuma V3 Susanoo can fit like 5 V1 Susanoo's in it. Tsukuyomi seems to cost a lot more depending on how many days it is too.


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## kokodeshide (Mar 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Okay, but how does he have less durability than kimimaro's bones? That's what I don't get.


A whole field of harder than steel + sage enhanced bones or sasukes susano which was broken open by a wind jutsu from danzo? You tell me which is harder, susano or tens of thick sage bone spires.


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## Bonly (Mar 19, 2019)

Itachi would win as he's pretty much a better version of Sasuke bar the stamina and Enton use, Sasuke didn't surpass Itachi until he got his EMS


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 20, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think it is fair to make an argument based on part 1 stamina levels. That is pre-power inflation when Kakashi's daily limit for Raikiri was 4 and using sharingan for a couple of minutes drained him



It's completely fair.

There is nothing in part 2 to suggest Itachi's standard operating levels is not 4 MS jutsus/day. Dying after using 5 jutsus does not disqualify his part 1 stamina.



> Eitherway, Itachi used more jutsu in his deathbed in part 2 than what he had seen from him in part 1, so I'm not sure why you think part 1 incarnation should be the limiter here.



Part 1 Itachi = 4 jutsus and physically normal

Part 2 Itachi = 5 jutsus and death

Absolutely nothing in part 2 invalidates his part 1 performance.



> I think using his part 1 incarnation is only useful to discredit  the "sick Itachi" fan fabrication.
> In part 1 he used MS(and other stuff) to the extend that he had to turn off his sharingan and rest, and there were no physical detriments to his health(seeing as he was physically capable of running still) as opposed to keeling over and coughing blood after using 3 MS(which wasn't even his limit) in part 2.



Not relevant to my point so sure.



> Sure but we can't ignore the fact that those jutsu cost him chakra.
> We can't exactly claim that 3 or 4 MS is his limit if there are other variables involved. That's all I'm saying.



Significantly less than MS jutsus.

The debate is how many he could normally use vs his Edo version. Our sample size has him at 4 and 5 respectively while alive, where his Edo version has significantly more. All samples incur other jutsus and tertiary damage and injuries/fatigue. Impossible to measure to what extent in each, thus we focus on the MS techs.



> Susano'O is an activation type technique, the longer it is activated, the more it drains.



It damages the user while active. Where does it say it drains chakra after activation?



> And the taxation is amplified by the level of the Susano'O that is being used. These are directly stated and shown.



Sure but any activation requires chakra and comes with the drawback of a physical toll. Each activation.

Literally zero chance any version of living Itachi could replicate the Edo feats.



> There is no evidence that turning it on and off briefly will be as taxing  as turning it on and maintaining it for longer periods of time while using higher levels.



There also no evidence that it is not as taxing.

I would agree a perfect/higher level Susanoo would be more difficult and harder than imperfect/lower level ones, but to what level is impossible to say. If you want to play the evidence game realize there is just a little evidence both ways.



> I think the flash activation points to the the contrary. It is more economic to use it on lower levels for small bursts than to materialize higher levels and maintain them.



It's possible but also telling that Living Itachi never utilized it, even when it would have been beneficial. (on his deathbed no reason to use anything beyond ribcage)



> Itachi only got a chance to show it in the Sasuke fight and he simply used it as a trump card.
> If Itachi used it against Sasuke like he used it against Nagato or Kabuto he'd kill him quicky, which would be the opposite of what he wanted to do. So I don't consider that as a proof to why he didn't use Susano'O the way he used it when he was an edo. You are basically discarding a very important variable here; he was holding back.



If your theory is correct about lower levels of Susanoo being less taxing chakra wise then there would be no reason not to downgrade in the Uchiha fight once he and Sasuke were alone. He didn't.



> As for Sasuke, he actually used V3 and V2 and maintained them throughout the majority of the Danzo fight(good 5-6 minutes as he deactivated it when Danzo had 3 eyes left).
> Postimg
> Postimg



Sure, but Sasuke has vastly more chakra and stamina than Itachi.



> I'm arguing that his usage per battle wasn't  above what he had used when his alive.



I understand that but we have been shown the contrary.

Itachi's limit appears to be 4 or 5 MS jutsus in a day. Even if I give you the benefit of splitting up between Edo's fights (which makes zero sense if you think about it) Itachi still performed way more instances of MS techniques vs Kabuto than he ever did when he was alive.

If you want to claim that Edo Itachi spamming MS techniques is fanfiction you cannot offer your own fanfiction to discredit it.



> It doesn't matter if he rejuvenated between battles as the time that passed between those battles is irrelevant.



Itachi visits Konoha and then goes on to find Jiraiya and Naruto. Needs to lure Jiraiya away before engaging.

Itachi fights Nagato and then immediately proceeds to look for Kabuto. No indication of any significant time has passed.

If anything more time passed between visiting Konoha and finding Jiraiya.

The Kabuto fight already has more MS usage and using the entire day makes it MASSIVE.



> Itachi used more stuff in his deathbed than he used in part 1.



Yes, 5 vs 4, but he was fine after 4 in part 1.

You keep saying this as though it proves something. All it shows is that pushing beyond your normal operating limits is punishing on the MS user, which we already knew.



> And we know for a fact that he wasn't in his deathbed in part 1 because he didn't keel over and die upon reaching his limits.
> 
> So clearly his capacity from part 1 to part 2 increased, just like everyone elses did.



Uh...no.

Using 5 MS jutsus and then dying does not prove an increased capacity vs using 4 MS jutsus so that you only need rest. It's non sequitur. For all we know 5 may have killed him in part 1 as well.

There's a reason his limit is 4, probably because he doesn't want to entertain potentially dying.



> I never said he can use it in the same manner as Edo Itachi.
> 
> I only said that his jutsu usage per battle didn't exceed what he has shown against Sasuke.



Except it did.

7 Susanoo activation's is significant. How could you even entertain that Living Itachi could possible spam Susanoo?



> I don't care if he can immediately regenerate all lost chakra right after the battle ends.
> I'm not talking about capability here. I'm talking about actual display.



The regeneration of the chakra is *why* Edo Itachi is far superior. He can use 13 MS jutsus in a day vs 4 or 5. You cannot disregard part 1 because you don't like it. Part 1 is still canon and his showings are not contradicted with part 2.

I understand you disagree, but you are engaging in your own fanfiction to disregard part 1, offer arbitrary effects and chakra usage on Susanoo and disregarding Itachi's daily usage to break his performance up into "fights".


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## X III (Mar 20, 2019)

If Itachi doesn't have lung cancer, he takes the W. The spiritual weapons of his Susanoo spell disaster for Sasuke.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 20, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> A whole field of harder than steel + sage enhanced bones or sasukes susano which was broken open by a wind jutsu from danzo? You tell me which is harder, susano or tens of thick sage bone spires.


Oh, so its pretty much your assumption? Sorry but I'm not buying it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 20, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> It's completely fair.


It isn't because there is a tremendous stamina increase(liberty of using more jutsu) from part 1 to part 2.


> +
> There is nothing in part 2 to suggest Itachi's standard operating levels is not 4 MS jutsus/day. Dying after using 5 jutsus does not disqualify his part 1 stamina.


Itachi died of his illness + chakra exhaustion.

I've already explained why stamina levels for everyone in part 2 exceeded their part 1 counterpats, including Itachi.
There is no logical explanation to how Kakashi went from 4 raikiri limit to 5+, and more liberal sharingan usage without any explanation or a statistical change in his stamina in Databook.



> Part 1 Itachi = 4 jutsus and physically normal
> 
> Part 2 Itachi = 5 jutsus and death
> 
> Absolutely nothing in part 2 invalidates his part 1 performance.


You've made a habit of omitting important details.
Itachi was in his deathbed against Sasuke. And he still ended up using more jutsu.
Itachi in part 1, after using MS only 3 times, couldn't keep his sharingan on and said he had to rest.
That means he exhausted himself with only 3 MS usage(and some other jutsu that you think is insignificant).

In part 2, he used MS 3 times and he still had chakra left for 1 Minute Susano'O(mostly on it's highest stage) and never turned off his sharingan until it went away completely by itself.
And he did that in a terminally ill body.


> Not relevant to my point so sure.


It is actually relevant because you keep saying that Itachi got killed by 4 MS usage in part 2 while in fact he died because of his illness.



> Significantly less than MS jutsus.


Impossible to know to what extend but we can't just ignore them.



> The debate is how many he could normally use vs his Edo version. Our sample size has him at 4 and 5 respectively while alive, where his Edo version has significantly more. All samples incur other jutsus and tertiary damage and injuries/fatigue. Impossible to measure to what extent in each, thus we focus on the MS techs.


We have him at 4(+ other things) in his deathbed.
We have less with his Edo version as I've explained in detail.



> It damages the user while active. Where does it say it drains chakra after activation?


So how do you think it stays active then ? Other than being fueled by chakra obviously.

Or do you think flash activating the fist for a brief moment costs as much chakra as using the Stage 4 for 5 minutes ?
How would that even make sense ?



> Sure but any activation requires chakra and comes with the drawback of a physical toll. Each activation.
> 
> Literally zero chance any version of living Itachi could replicate the Edo feats.


Actually the activation never showed any sign of physical toll. The physical toll mostly comes after maintaining it for a while. And like Sasuke said, the physical toll can be overcome because he thought maintaining the ribcage was hard at first then he had no problem maintaining V2 and then V3.

We've seen Death Bed Itachi use V4 longer than his Edo version, when he had one leg in the grave, so I absolutely have no idea what you are talking about.



> There also no evidence that it is not as taxing.
> 
> I would agree a perfect/higher level Susanoo would be more difficult and harder than imperfect/lower level ones, but to what level is impossible to say. If you want to play the evidence game realize there is just a little evidence both ways.


There is no need to play the evidence game here when all the displays of Susano'O and common sense together can only reach one conclusion.
Susano'O is basically chakra emitted from users body so logically it is sustained by draining the users chakra.



> It's possible but also telling that Living Itachi never utilized it, even when it would have been beneficial. (on his deathbed no reason to use anything beyond ribcage)


It never came into the picture up until the last second though.  He needed V4 to battle Yamata no Orochi, and then he could barely walk towards Sasuke and his Susano'O went down one level. But I think it wouldn't make sense to use smaller variant because he was in no position to defend himself and he was gonna die in a matter of seconds anyways.


> If your theory is correct about lower levels of Susanoo being less taxing chakra wise then there would be no reason not to downgrade in the Uchiha fight once he and Sasuke were alone. He didn't.


There was no reason to downgrade. The fight was basically over. Do you think a technicality like that would have any effect in those last 3 or 4 pages ?
You'd have a point if Itachi was trying to survive, but he knew he was about to die.


> Sure, but Sasuke has vastly more chakra and stamina than Itachi.


There is actually no evidence that he has "vastly" more chakra.
Going by the databook, he is only 1 tier higher and Sasuke has never been a stamina beast himself.

Eitherway, you claimed that Itachi used Susano'O longer than Sasuke did. That was my response to that.



> I understand that but we have been shown the contrary.
> 
> Itachi's limit appears to be 4 or 5 MS jutsus in a day. Even if I give you the benefit of splitting up between Edo's fights (which makes zero sense if you think about it) Itachi still performed way more instances of MS techniques vs Kabuto than he ever did when he was alive.
> 
> If you want to claim that Edo Itachi spamming MS techniques is fanfiction you cannot offer your own fanfiction to discredit it.


You believe that we were shown the contrary because you think each Susano'O activation counts as 1 MS use and has the same toll as any other MS technique on the user.
How would a chakra construct that is barely the size of an average man, cost the same strain/chakra investment as the one that is 10 times bigger and more complex ?

This also applies to other MS Jutsu.
We've seen Itachi panting and sweaty after the 72 hour Tsukiyomi : they're dangerous is due to the fact that Sasori can launch multiple projectiles in various different angles
But after the 24 hour one he didn't seem stressed even slightly :
they're dangerous is due to the fact that Sasori can launch multiple projectiles in various different angles
And he started sprinting right after.



> Itachi visits Konoha and then goes on to find Jiraiya and Naruto. Needs to lure Jiraiya away before engaging.
> 
> Itachi fights Nagato and then immediately proceeds to look for Kabuto. No indication of any significant time has passed.
> 
> ...


Like I told you I never argued about the chakra regeneration benefits of Edo body. But that happened in between 2 seperate fights. Which is completely irrelevant to my argument.



> Yes, 5 vs 4, but he was fine after 4 in part 1.
> 
> You keep saying this as though it proves something. All it shows is that pushing beyond your normal operating limits is punishing on the MS user, which we already knew.


He was "fine" because he wasn't in his deathbed.
But was he fine chakra-wise ? No. He couldn't even keep his sharingan active. We are talking about a guy who had his sharingan active pretty much 24/7.
they're dangerous is due to the fact that Sasori can launch multiple projectiles in various different angles
So that means he exhausted his chakra.



> Uh...no.
> 
> Using 5 MS jutsus and then dying does not prove an increased capacity vs using 4 MS jutsus so that you only need rest. It's non sequitur. For all we know 5 may have killed him in part 1 as well.
> 
> There's a reason his limit is 4, probably because he doesn't want to entertain potentially dying.



I'm tired of repeating myself, this is adressed above.



> Except it did.
> 
> *7 Susanoo activation's is significan*t. How could you even entertain that Living Itachi could possible spam Susanoo?


Your argument of Susano'O activation counting as 1 MS use is unsubstantiated. So is your claim of each MS use having the same strain and chakra toll on the body.



> The regeneration of the chakra is *why* Edo Itachi is far superior. He can use 13 MS jutsus in a day vs 4 or 5.


Your estimation is off but I agree. For the sole fact that ET Itachi can regenerate means he is superior(I won't go in to the Edo being weaker arguement).


> You cannot disregard part 1 because you don't like it. Part 1 is still canon and his showings are not contradicted with part 2.


I can disregard part 1 because of the power inflation that effected pretty much everyone not just Itachi.
Kakashi told his raikiri limit per day was 4 in part 1. In part 2, against Kakuzu he used like 5 Raikiri on top of tons of other stuff and still admitted that he had chakra left for a MS shot. He did all that while keeping his sharingan active which normally tired him out within a couple of minutes.
I've already explained numerous times why Itachi's MS display in part 2 is superior to part 1.


> I understand you disagree, but you are engaging in your own fanfiction to disregard part 1, offer arbitrary effects and chakra usage on Susanoo and disregarding Itachi's daily usage to break his performance up into "fights".



I've provided evidence regarding the difference in stamina levels in part 1 and 2. Both in general and specific to Itachi.
Your argument on each Susano'O activation counting as 1 MS use is subjective that goes against common sense.
Also why wouldn't I break his performance into "fights" as Kabuto, Nagato, and Sasuke battles are completely seperate from each other. We have to be able to evaluate them each on their own. I have no idea why you are against it.

Anyways, if you don't have anything new to add, don't bother. We've been going back and forth on the same subject to no avail.
Your argument basically boils down to you not acknowleding Itachi's physical condition in his fight against Sasuke. Also not acknowledgeing the fact that he exhausted his chakra in part 1.
And most importantly you think each Susano'O activation counts as 1 MS use, regardless of for how long it is used and what stage that is used, which in my opinion are the more relevant and important aspects of using Susano'O, so we can't overlook them.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 20, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It isn't because there is a tremendous stamina increase(liberty of using more jutsu) from part 1 to part 2.



Says who?

Just because Kakashi got better doesn't mean everybody did.

If you want to talk about fanfiction you can't simultaneously employ it.



> Itachi died of his illness + chakra exhaustion.



Yes he did.

Nothing about this fact disproves his part 1 performance.



> I've already explained why stamina levels for everyone in part 2 exceeded their part 1 counterpats, including Itachi.



You have offered your view, but your view is not a fact. We have zero reason to believe Itachi got some superhuman stamina boost.

Just because some characters progressed (Kakashi who also received his MS between PT1 and PT2) doesn't mean all characters got better. In fact it is more likely Itachi got *worse*.



> There is no logical explanation to how Kakashi went from 4 raikiri limit to 5+, and more liberal sharingan usage without any explanation or a statistical change in his stamina in Databook.



He got better.

Went from a jounin to low kage level. He simply leveled up. This is a manga literally focused on ninjas leveling up.

It's self evident.




> You've made a habit of omitting important details.



Because they are not important.



> Itachi was in his deathbed against Sasuke. And he still ended up using more jutsu.



Yes, and he died for it.

In part 1 he was still fresh as a daisy.

Simply nothing here to indicate any type of stamina boost.

Don't know what to tell you.



> Itachi in part 1, after using MS only 3 times, couldn't keep his sharingan on and said he had to rest.
> That means he exhausted himself with only 3 MS usage(and some other jutsu that you think is insignificant).
> 
> In part 2, he used MS 3 times and he still had chakra left for 1 Minute Susano'O(mostly on it's highest stage) and never turned off his sharingan until it went away completely by itself.
> And he did that in a terminally ill body.



Yes Itachi could push his MS in part 1 without risking death, but could not do so in part 2. You simply are not making a point here.

You cannot use a scenario where he pushed himself to the limits and died as "proof" he has more stamina when he basically had zero ill effects in part one.

It simply doesn't wash.



> It is actually relevant because you keep saying that Itachi got killed by 4 MS usage in part 2 while in fact he died because of his illness.



Both actually.

Unless you want to argue that he was going to die at the exact same moment.



> Impossible to know to what extend but we can't just ignore them.



We know it is significantly less. That's the point.



> We have him at 4(+ other things) in his deathbed.
> We have less with his Edo version as I've explained in detail.



You've offered your interpretation that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

7 activation of Susanoo is simply something his living self could never do. This cannot be ignored.



> So how do you think it stays active then ? Other than being fueled by chakra obviously.



How does a rasengen stay active?

You made the claim of continuous chakra investment, but there is nothing to indicate that. It is just as likely that it only requires an initial investment like other jutsus.

Even if there was a continuous investment we have no idea what it is. Could be almost nothing considering nobody ever had their Susanoo shut off from chakra depletion or had their Susanoo deplete their chakra to nothing.



> Or do you think flash activating the fist for a brief moment costs as much chakra as using the Stage 4 for 5 minutes ?
> How would that even make sense ?



It probably has the initial investment and the bigger the Susanoo the bigger the investment.

If the jutsu was explicitly explained I am all ears.



> Actually the activation never showed any sign of physical toll.



All MS jutsus had a physical toll on Itachi upon activation. Makes no sense that this particular one would be free.



> We've seen Death Bed Itachi use V4 longer than his Edo version, when he had one leg in the grave, so I absolutely have no idea what you are talking about.



Yes he used his best move and ended up dead where edo basically ran around like he had EMS, yet you are arguing that they both performed the same.

That's what we are talking about.



> There is no need to play the evidence game here when all the displays of Susano'O and common sense together can only reach one conclusion.
> Susano'O is basically chakra emitted from users body so logically it is sustained by draining the users chakra.



Sure, let's play the common sense game.

7 activations of Susanoo in a single fight. 5-7 full MS jutsus in a single day plus those activations. Zero drawbacks or strain.

Common sense dictates that living Itachi could never accomplish this.



> It never came into the picture up until the last second though.  He needed V4 to battle Yamata no Orochi, and then he could barely walk towards Sasuke and his Susano'O went down one level. But I think it wouldn't make sense to use smaller variant because he was in no position to defend himself and he was gonna die in a matter of seconds anyways.



Once Oro was taken out Itachi could have downgraded to block the explosive tags.

Come on man lol



> There was no reason to downgrade. The fight was basically over. Do you think a technicality like that would have any effect in those last 3 or 4 pages ?
> You'd have a point if Itachi was trying to survive, but he knew he was about to die.



Look it's your claim there is some sort of unknown yet significant difference between activation on Susanoo's  as far as chakra usage. If that were the case either Itachi would have downgraded or his depleting chakra would have forced a downgrade.



> There is actually no evidence that he has "vastly" more chakra.
> Going by the databook, he is only 1 tier higher and Sasuke has never been a stamina beast himself.



LOL, sure.



> Eitherway, you claimed that Itachi used Susano'O longer than Sasuke did. That was my response to that.



Actually I said he used it more, not longer.



> You believe that we were shown the contrary because you think each Susano'O activation counts as 1 MS use and has the same toll as any other MS technique on the user.



It does count as 1 MS use. Toll is unknown, but MS always takes a toll.



> How would a chakra construct that is barely the size of an average man, cost the same strain/chakra investment as the one that is 10 times bigger and more complex ?



It wouldn't, but I never claimed such.

The activation of each use is the issue here. Living Itachi could not activate his MS this relentlessly. When people say Edo "spammed" MS obviously they mean these instances of Susanoo on/off.

You claim these instances of spamming are somehow insignificant and Living Itachi would be fully capable of replicating this type of use even though we have zero evidence of such. I don't doubt a bigger jutsu costs more, my problem is with the idea that these activation's are so insignificant that they are somehow impart  far less strain than other MS jutsus.



> This also applies to other MS Jutsu.
> We've seen Itachi panting and sweaty after the 72 hour Tsukiyomi : they're dangerous is due to the fact that Sasori can launch multiple projectiles in various different angles
> But after the 24 hour one he didn't seem stressed even slightly :
> they're dangerous is due to the fact that Sasori can launch multiple projectiles in various different angles
> And he started sprinting right after.



I interpreted the difference as Kakashi being able to resist and Sasuke being free. Anyway not relevant.



> Like I told you I never argued about the chakra regeneration benefits of Edo body. But that happened in between 2 seperate fights. Which is completely irrelevant to my argument.



It's relevant to the *day*. Living Itachi is a single day gas tank. So any MS uses *within that day* is his limit. If Edo gets to perform far more MS uses with the *same time frame* then the edo is obviously capable of something living Itachi is not.



> He was "fine" because he wasn't in his deathbed.



He also did not push himself past 4 MS techs.

Obviously has something to do with it.



> But was he fine chakra-wise ? No. He couldn't even keep his sharingan active. We are talking about a guy who had his sharingan active pretty much 24/7.



Yeah he was low on chakra and needed to rest, BUT HE WAS PHYSICALLY FINE. No indication of chakra exhaustion or any ill physical effects. Implication is he could still continue if ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.

How do you keep thinking that a dude who pushes himself to death is somehow comparable to a guy who doesn't and then say "see proof the dead guy had more juice".

One guy died one guy didn't. COMMON SENSE would dictate that the whole pushing yourself to death has something to do with being able to use another couple of moves VS the guy WHO LIVED AND WAS PERFECTLY FINE.



> I'm tired of repeating myself, this is adressed above.



Look, just because you repeat 2+2=5 over and over doesn't make it so.

I have no problem with how you want to interpret Itachi and his capability, but you simply cannot scrutinize the common belief that Edo was far more capable with stuff like "fanfiction" and "common sense" while simultaneously employing an argument that is equally guilty if not more so.



> Your argument of Susano'O activation counting as 1 MS use is unsubstantiated.



LOLwut?

What is more likely, each activation having a toll or each activation being insignificant.

Let's do that common sense thing again.



> So is your claim of each MS use having the same strain and chakra toll on the body.



I never claimed they were all exactly the same.



> Your estimation is off but I agree. For the sole fact that ET Itachi can regenerate means he is superior(I won't go in to the Edo being weaker arguement).



Glad we could find some common ground.



> I can disregard part 1 because of the power inflation that effected pretty much everyone not just Itachi.



Power inflation is fanfiction. Itachi showed 2 of his most powerful jutsus and they remained so throughout the manga. There is no evidence Itachi was "power inflated".



> Kakashi told his raikiri limit per day was 4 in part 1. In part 2, against Kakuzu he used like 5 Raikiri on top of tons of other stuff and still admitted that he had chakra left for a MS shot. He did all that while keeping his sharingan active which normally tired him out within a couple of minutes.



Kakashi got better.



> I've already explained numerous times why Itachi's MS display in part 2 is superior to part 1.



I disagree that dying qualifies as superior.



> I've provided evidence regarding the difference in stamina levels in part 1 and 2. Both in general and specific to Itachi.



Omitting details anybody?

One guy died, one didn't Seems to be a significant detail even though his illness contributed to his death.



> Your argument on each Susano'O activation counting as 1 MS use is subjective that goes against common sense.



No it doesn't.

How would activating an MS technique not be consider activating an MS technique?



> Also why wouldn't I break his performance into "fights" as Kabuto, Nagato, and Sasuke battles are completely seperate from each other. We have to be able to evaluate them each on their own. I have no idea why you are against it.



Because Itachi's living stamina is within a day timeframe and Edo Itachi was capable of far more within a single day. Kind of the point.



> Anyways, if you don't have anything new to add, don't bother. We've been going back and forth on the same subject to no avail.



Fair enough.



> Your argument basically boils down to you not acknowleding Itachi's physical condition in his fight against Sasuke.



That's untrue. His illness obviously played a factor, but the degree is not known. Obviously he would not have died at the moment were it not for pushing himself to his limits.



> Also not acknowledgeing the fact that he exhausted his chakra in part 1.



Again, untrue.

He shut off his sharingan but was physically and mentally fine. He was not in a state that indicated he pushed himself to his limits.



> And most importantly you think each Susano'O activation counts as 1 MS use, regardless of for how long it is used and what stage that is used, which in my opinion are the more relevant and important aspects of using Susano'O, so we can't overlook them.



I consider each MS use to be an MS use, incurring some significant drawback as shown repeatedly in the manga. I never said they are all equal, but certainly all significant.


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## kokodeshide (Mar 20, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Oh, so its pretty much your assumption? Sorry but I'm not buying it.



No, it's pretty much basic logic and common sense. You can't say Sasukes susano is harder than Sage Bones if they have no feats to prove they are. That is not how this works. Danzo blasted through the back of Sasukes Susano, yet totsuka, which is a variant of the best cutting blades in Naruto kusanagi, that has feats above danzos wind jutsu, somehow cannot? You are new and maybe you don't quite get how this works but you have to prove he could, otherwise he cant.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 20, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> No, it's pretty much basic logic and common sense. You can't say Sasukes susano is harder than Sage Bones if they have no feats to prove they are. That is not how this works. Danzo blasted through the back of Sasukes Susano, yet totsuka, which is a variant of the best cutting blades in Naruto kusanagi, that has feats above danzos wind jutsu, somehow cannot? You are new and maybe you don't quite get how this works but you have to prove he could, otherwise he cant.


Bruh, Totsuka is a normal Susanoo sword in cutting power until proven otherwise. Everything you just said was pretty much fanfic. You have no proof that Totsuka has superior cutting power than a normal Susanoo. "You can't say Sage Bones are harder than Susanoo if they have no feats to prove they are." _Pointing out on the fact that I am new won't really help you in your arguments._


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 20, 2019)

I'll adress the 


ShinAkuma said:


> Because Itachi's living stamina is within a day timeframe and Edo Itachi was capable of far more within a single day. Kind of the point.


Again, I have nothing against that argument. Correct me if I'm wrong but I never said living Itachi could battle Nagato & Kabuto in a single day.
I only said the things he have done in those battles could have been replicated(aside from getting killed by Kabuto obviously) by living Itachi. Because I couldn't care less if he fought them 1 months apart. I'm only interested in the stuff he showcased against those two individuals in two seperate occasions.



> That's untrue. His illness obviously played a factor, but the degree is not known. Obviously he would not have died at the moment were it not for pushing himself to his limits.


It is actually pretty well known. Zetsu said Itachi may have been severely wounded before the fight. 
Obito and the databook also underlined the fact that Itachi was dying. Obito even said "he knew his time was short."
MS(especially Susano'O) puts a strain on the body. I'd argue that the weaker the body, the faster it would be consumed. And not just that, chakra is made of body and spiritual energy. So even if Itachi wasn't using MS, he'd eventually die simply by expending chakra.



> Again, untrue.
> 
> He shut off his sharingan but was physically and mentally fine. He was not in a state that indicated he pushed himself to his limits.


But again, you are ignoring that fact that he was sick during his fight against Sasuke. Why would he have similar physical drawbacks in part 1 ? Especially when he didn't even use Susano'O ?

We know for a fact that Susano'O is the jutsu that puts the most strain on the body(it is actually the only jutsu that is stated to have negative effects on the body) and we've seen Sasuke go through those drawbacks only when he used the higher stages for longer periods of time, at a time when he was basically a novice with it.

Shutting off his sharingan is basically an indicator that Itachi's chakra is at his limits. There is no ifs and buts here. So even if you don't want to buy the power inflation argument(which is pretty hard to deny honestly), you'll still have to acknowledge that part 1 can't be used as a limiter for Itachi's MS capability.



> I consider each MS use to be an MS use, incurring some significant drawback as shown repeatedly in the manga. I never said they are all equal, but certainly all significant.



But those drawbacks also do vary, based on each MS use don't they ? 

 Jiraiya can't really do anything against his feints with FRS which would've killed Deva Path

Sasuke only started feeling the drawbacks after he used it for a while. He even word for word states that the drawbacks kick in when it is used for "long periods of time." Also implies that the higher stages would put more strain on the body by saying "I haven't even perfected it yet, and I'm in this much pain."

So with that in mind, how does it make sense for a brief ribcage activation to be equal to 30 second V4 ?

You should be aware that you are contradicting yourself at this point. So either using V4 for 30 seconds is equal to flash activating V1 Ribcage or arm(which clearly isn't based on manga evidence), or they aren't equal and thus each MS use can't be equal to the other.

Sorry I omitted some part of your post but I don't want to argue for part 1 and part 2 difference and most of the stuff we were talking about are partially covered here, but if you like me to specifically adress a certain bit let me know.


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## kokodeshide (Mar 20, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Bruh, Totsuka is a normal Susanoo sword in cutting power until proven otherwise.


Bruh, Totsuka has better cutting feats.


Artistwannabe said:


> Everything you just said was pretty much fanfic. You have no proof that Totsuka has superior cutting power than a normal Susanoo.


Except Totsuka has cut harder things than a Susano sword has cut.



Artistwannabe said:


> "You can't say Sage Bones are harder than Susanoo if they have no feats to prove they are." _Pointing out on the fact that I am new won't really help you in your arguments._


Susano was taken down by a wind jutsu. Unless that wind jutsu was sharper than a blade of chakra, it isn't anywhere near tens of thick ass bone spires.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 20, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'll adress the
> 
> Again, I have nothing against that argument. Correct me if I'm wrong but I never said living Itachi could battle Nagato & Kabuto in a single day.



Fair enough.



> I only said the things he have done in those battles could have been replicated(aside from getting killed by Kabuto obviously) by living Itachi. Because I couldn't care less if he fought them 1 months apart. I'm only interested in the stuff he showcased against those two individuals in two seperate occasions.



And here's where we disagree. "Two separate occasions" occurs in a short timeframe within the same day.

Edo Itachi is capable of using so many jutsus in a single day that he seems like spamming compared to Living Itachi who could only use 5 MS jutsus max.

If you don't disagree then we can complete this discussion.



> It is actually pretty well known. Zetsu said Itachi may have been severely wounded before the fight.
> Obito and the databook also underlined the fact that Itachi was dying. Obito even said "he knew his time was short."
> MS(especially Susano'O) puts a strain on the body. I'd argue that the weaker the body, the faster it would be consumed. And not just that, chakra is made of body and spiritual energy. So even if Itachi wasn't using MS, he'd eventually die simply by expending chakra.



Well I guess we should get down to the brass tacks then.

Do you think Itachi would have died if he did not fight Sasuke that day and was pushed to the limits?



> But again, you are ignoring that fact that he was sick during his fight against Sasuke. Why would he have similar physical drawbacks in part 1 ? Especially when he didn't even use Susano'O ?



I'm not ignoring anything, I just don't buy the idea that his being sick was the determining factor on how many jutsus he could use.



> We know for a fact that Susano'O is the jutsu that puts the most strain on the body(it is actually the only jutsu that is stated to have negative effects on the body) and we've seen Sasuke go through those drawbacks only when he used the higher stages for longer periods of time, at a time when he was basically a novice with it.



No non EMS user has ever used Susanoo as relentlessly as Edo Itachi did. I agree there are drawbacks of varying degrees and logically drawbacks to spamming it's usage at any level.



> Shutting off his sharingan is basically an indicator that Itachi's chakra is at his limits. There is no ifs and buts here. So even if you don't want to buy the power inflation argument(which is pretty hard to deny honestly), you'll still have to acknowledge that part 1 can't be used as a limiter for Itachi's MS capability.



Or close to his limits. The fact that he had zero physical drawbacks indicates he wasn't totally out as usually we see a physical manifestation of chakra depletion, which Itachi had none.



> But those drawbacks also do vary, based on each MS use don't they ?
> 
> created a timeline
> 
> ...



I never said the MS drawbacks do not vary, only that they will always incur some significant drawback.

If spamming smaller versions of Susanoo didn't come with some significant drawback we would have seen it used in that way much more often as an obvious workaround. We never did. In fact the guy who did abuse, Sasuke, basically went blind virtually instantly compared to Itachi.

Obviously the Edo body allowed Itachi to use his jutsus in a manner impossible for Living Itachi. (physical toll, blindness)

Now I am not longer sure what exactly it is you are arguing. If you want to say that Living Itachi can replicate in a day half of what Edo Itachi did in a day while possibly incurring blindness and a heavy physical toll, sure I would agree. But there is zero chance Living Itachi could replicate and maintain his physical vitality that Edo Itachi was capable of.

Again let's get to the brass tacks - do you think Living Itachi could activate Susanoo 7 different times, 1 amaterasu and 1 tsukuyomi in a single encounter with no issues?


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## Sapherosth (Mar 20, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This is dumb because it acts as if Sasuke and Itachi used Susanoo for the same length of time. Which is bullshit. Sasuje maintains Susanoo through several back to back chapters including through s casual conversation with Danzo.
> 
> ALSO, this assumes the only thing Sasuke did was Susanoo spam...Which is also bullshit. *Sasuke was seen using Susanoo and Amaterasu at the same time*...*With no signs of it slowing him down*...You point me to where Itachi has ever done that.
> 
> ...





Is no one going to call out this absurd comment?


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Bruh, Totsuka has better cutting feats.
> Except Totsuka has cut harder things than a Susano sword has cut.
> 
> Susano was taken down by a wind jutsu. Unless that wind jutsu was sharper than a blade of chakra, it isn't anywhere near tens of thick ass bone spires.


Where are Totsuka's cutting feats? How can you say that this wind jutsu won't cut the bones?


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Mar 21, 2019)

Itachi wins. CS2 Flame dragons were implied to incinerate the immediate space, the former tanked them, that prolly means Susano'o arrow isn't bypassing his Herculean physique.

Karin implied non ocular based illusions - that are cannonically alluded to being inferior to ocular - could bypass an MS user's mental system, hence he progressively falls to highly advanced 3T or MS illusions.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 21, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Well I guess we should get down to the brass tacks then.
> 
> Do you think Itachi would have died if he did not fight Sasuke that day and was pushed to the limits?


At that exact moment ? No he wouldn't. But later on that day or the day after ? Who knows ? There is no way to tell exactly when he'd die, but we know for a fact that he knew he didn't have much time so he wanted to get the Sasuke bussiness over with.

Let me ask you a similar question then.

Do you think a person who is inflicted with a terminal illness living their last days/weeks would respond to heavy physical strain differently than someone who is in a much better shape ? If yes, do you think it would be significant ?



> I'm not ignoring anything, I just don't buy the idea that his being sick was the determining factor on how many jutsus he could use.


No one is trying to sell you anything. I'm  just repeating what we are shown and told in the manga.
We know that Hiruzen's old age was a determining factor on how much chakra he had. And honestly, he didn't look in a worse shape than Itachi. Itachi was basically keeling over and coughing blood after using his 2nd Amaterasu. Clearly exerting his chakra had ill effects on his body.



> No non EMS user has ever used Susanoo as relentlessly as Edo Itachi did. I agree there are drawbacks of varying degrees and logically drawbacks to spamming it's usage at any level.


This is where we disagree.
You think activating and deactivating it is more draining and chakra taxing than having it on for longer periods of time.
So in that sense, both Edo Itachi and Sasuke used their Susano'O more relentlessly than Edo Itachi who basically stuck with lower variants for the most part and used them in small bursts.



> Or close to his limits. The fact that he had zero physical drawbacks indicates he wasn't totally out as usually we see a physical manifestation of chakra depletion, which Itachi had none.


Physical drawbacks were mostly due to Susano'O and him being terminally ill.

Sasuke never keeled over and started coughing blood after using Amaterasu. He actually never showed any sign of serious physical distress until he used V3 for a long period of time.



> I never said the MS drawbacks do not vary, only that they will always incur some significant drawback.


But there is evidence that not every drawback is significant.
Sasuke never felt any physical distress when he used ribcage Susano'O, untill he used it for a long period of time. Contrary to your belief of a severe consequential drawback upon activation.

We've seen Itachi didn't even start huffing and puffing after he infliced that 24 hour Tsukiyomi on Sasuke, he started running and casually whipped out Amaterasu and kept running afterwards.

We've seen deathbed Itachi dismantle Yamata no Orochi with the strongest incarnation of Susano'O while taking his time, without showing any distress up until a certain point.

Where are those significant drawbacks that you speak of ?



> If spamming smaller versions of Susanoo didn't come with some significant drawback we would have seen it used in that way much more often as an obvious workaround.


Like when ? Itachi had no use for them when he was alive becuase the only time he used Susano'O was against Sasuke and the only time Susano'O became relevant was when he was sure that he wouldn't be able to survive Sasuke's trumpcard.



> In fact the guy who did abuse, Sasuke, basically went blind virtually instantly compared to Itachi.


I've already provided evidence that Sasuke used Susano'O around 5-6 minutes during the Danzo fight, that is more t han the total of Itachi's Susano'O usage on panel. And Sasuke used it for a couple of minutes priorly in the summit as well.



> Obviously the Edo body allowed Itachi to use his jutsus in a manner impossible for Living Itachi. (physical toll, blindness)


If by living Itachi you mean deathbed Itachi you are correct.
Otherwise you are not.
We've seen Itachi use Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu in rapid succession without any sign of physical drawbacks aside from chakra exhaustion.



> Now I am not longer sure what exactly it is you are arguing. If you want to say that Living Itachi can replicate in a day half of what Edo Itachi did in a day while possibly incurring blindness and a heavy physical toll, sure I would agree. But there is zero chance Living Itachi could replicate and maintain his physical vitality that Edo Itachi was capable of.


More or less agreed.



> Again let's get to the brass tacks - do you think Living Itachi could activate Susanoo 7 different times, 1 amaterasu and 1 tsukuyomi in a single encounter with no issues?


Easily.

Because we've already seen him use Tsukiyomi & Amaterasu in rapid succession with literally 0 physical drawbacks, and we've only seen him go through Susano'O's side effects when he was at the brink of death while he was using the highest incarnation of Susano'o for over 30 seconds. Using lower versions for a few seconds consecutively would be less physically draining, and given the size of the chakra construct the chakra invested should be alot less with smaller ones as well.


As a side note :
We can debate it on a seperate thread if you like but since you seem to be under the impression that power inflation doesn't exist, I want your take on how Kakashi went from not being able to walk straight after using MS once to basically consistenly using it with almost no physical drawbacks, within the span of a few weeks.

And how did he increase his daily Raikiri limit in those 2.5 years as well as got rid of the severe drawbacks of sharingan on his non competible non Uchiha body.
Seeing that Kakashi had both Raikiri and Sharingan for 13 years, during the time he was an active nin, I'm just wondering why he waited to improve those for the time skip and manage to do so without any statistical improvements on his databook stats or any indication of a training or a statement made by himself or any other character.


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## kokodeshide (Mar 21, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Where are Totsuka's cutting feats?


Cutting the bones....like i said.



Artistwannabe said:


> How can you say that this wind jutsu won't cut the bones?


Because it hasn't demonstrated the ability to do so.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Cutting the bones....like i said.


Okay, what makes you think that a normal Susanoo sword won't cut them? 


> Because it hasn't demonstrated the ability to do so.


But Totsuka also hasn't demonstrated the ability to cut a Susanoo either


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## kokodeshide (Mar 21, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Okay, what makes you think that a normal Susanoo sword won't cut them?


...Because it hasn't shown that level of cutting before. This is extremely simple. What has a regular Susano'o sword cut that is as hard or harder than Kimimaros bone?



Artistwannabe said:


> But Totsuka also hasn't demonstrated the ability to cut a Susanoo either


But it has demonstrated the Ability to cut something harder, aka, Kimimaros bone. And susano has been cut by something weaker, wind blades.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> ...Because it hasn't shown that level of cutting before. This is extremely simple. What has a regular Susano'o sword cut that is as hard or harder than Kimimaros bone?
> 
> But it has demonstrated the Ability to cut something harder, aka, Kimimaros bone. And susano has been cut by something weaker, wind blades.


You are making no sense my dude...you can't state something without having any proof of it whatsoever.
You can't state that Totsuka can cut Susanoo without having the feats to prove it.
You can't state that Kimimaro's bones are harder than a Susanoo when you are basing your whole point on 1 wind attack which may or may not cut those bones. Heck this jutsu might even oblitarate them, how can you know? Oh wait, you don't.


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## kokodeshide (Mar 21, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> You are making no sense my dude...you can't state something without having any proof of it whatsoever.
> You can't state that Totsuka can cut Susanoo without having the feats to prove it.
> You can't state that Kimimaro's bones are harder than a Susanoo when you are basing your whole point on 1 wind attack which may or may not cut those bones. Heck this jutsu might even oblitarate them, how can you know? Oh wait, you don't.


Bruh, YOU are the one stating that Susano could tank the hit with no proof. I provided you with the evidence. You are straight up rejecting it. 

How can I know? Really? How can YOU know? Oh wait you cant, cause this is a THEORETICAL DEBATE ON CARTOON CHARACTERS.

Follow the rules of debate, kid.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Bruh, YOU are the one stating that Susano could tank the hit with no proof. I provided you with the evidence. You are straight up rejecting it.
> 
> How can I know? Really? How can YOU know? Oh wait you cant, cause this is a THEORETICAL DEBATE ON CARTOON CHARACTERS.
> 
> Follow the rules of debate, *kid*.


Dropped, someone got too hot-blooded, you didn't provide any proof at all. Everything you said is as ambiguous as it can get... Not to mention that EMS Sasuke can just enter V4 Susanoo, are you going to say it's less durable than Kimimaro's bones? Those bones were literally there in 1 panel and you base your whole argument on that. Not only that, but you can't even provide proof that those bones are more durable than a Susanoo in any way shape or form, you are using Danzo's wind jutsu as an example, yet you can't say if this same jutsu can cut the bones with ease. No offense but everything you are saying is based purely on your own speculation, and I am not buying any of that. Not to mention calling me a kid just shows how mature you are in this conversation.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 21, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> At that exact moment ? No he wouldn't. But later on that day or the day after ? Who knows ? There is no way to tell exactly when he'd die, but we know for a fact that he knew he didn't have much time so he wanted to get the Sasuke bussiness over with.



Ok, so my point is Itachi's pushing himself to the limit is what caused him to die then and there. Sure he was going to die soonish at some point, but if he did not push himself he would have lived for an undetermined amount of time.



> Let me ask you a similar question then.
> 
> Do you think a person who is inflicted with a terminal illness living their last days/weeks would respond to heavy physical strain differently than someone who is in a much better shape ? If yes, do you think it would be significant ?



Yes the response would be different, but do not conflate physical strain with chakra capacity.



> No one is trying to sell you anything. I'm  just repeating what we are shown and told in the manga.



No, you are repeating your interpretation of what the manga shows.



> We know that Hiruzen's old age was a determining factor on how much chakra he had. And honestly, he didn't look in a worse shape than Itachi. Itachi was basically keeling over and coughing blood after using his 2nd Amaterasu. Clearly exerting his chakra had ill effects on his body.



You are not presenting a logically consistent argument. Itachi was not old, he was sick. You are conflating the effects of old age with  sickness. They are not the same and we have no reason to auume the effects are identical.

You are also making an argument that Living Itachi, who has always been sick it seems, will somehow replicate the performance of Edo Itachi, who is basically impervious to physical drawbacks and sickness.

What?



> This is where we disagree.
> You think activating and deactivating it is more draining and chakra taxing than having it on for longer periods of time.
> So in that sense, both Edo Itachi and Sasuke used their Susano'O more relentlessly than Edo Itachi who basically stuck with lower variants for the most part and used them in small bursts.



I think it has a worse overall drawback, ie; you would never want to spam Susanoo if you are Itachi. Which he evidently did not until he was an Edo. Each use of an MS jutsu causes damage to the eye, varying degrees of course. As a living entity with the MS you would  want to avoid multiple activation's of MS jutsus in order to avoid losing your sight too fast.

This is consistent with what we have seen in the manga. Itachi, who fought very smart and efficient, did not abuse his MS usage and as such avoided blindness for a very long time. Sasuke basically went blind 10X faster than Itachi



> Physical drawbacks were mostly due to Susano'O and him being terminally ill.



MS user's can become blind and experience physical pain without using Susanoo via Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.



> Sasuke never keeled over and started coughing blood after using Amaterasu. He actually never showed any sign of serious physical distress until he used V3 for a long period of time.



Sasuke is also younger and stronger, but he does experience eye pain when using Amaterasu or his shitty version of Tsukuyomi. All MS justsus cause some form of pain and the onset of blindness.




> But there is evidence that not every drawback is significant.



Blindness is significant.

Perhaps chakra depletion isn't always significant, but there will always be some significant drawback.



> Sasuke never felt any physical distress when he used ribcage Susano'O, untill he used it for a long period of time. Contrary to your belief of a severe consequential drawback upon activation.



Blindness and chakra usage are consequential.



> We've seen Itachi didn't even start huffing and puffing after he infliced that 24 hour Tsukiyomi on Sasuke, he started running and casually whipped out Amaterasu and kept running afterwards.



Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu always cause pain and blindness in the eyes



> We've seen deathbed Itachi dismantle Yamata no Orochi with the strongest incarnation of Susano'O while taking his time, without showing any distress up until a certain point.
> 
> Where are those significant drawbacks that you speak of ?



Death and blindness come to mind.

Yes his health is partially responsible for his death but HE WOULD NOT HAVE DIED THERE were it not for pushing himself to his limits.

You don't get to hang his death on only ninja aids when his physical exertion and MS use obviously accelerated it.



> Like when ? Itachi had no use for them when he was alive becuase the only time he used Susano'O was against Sasuke and the only time Susano'O became relevant was when he was sure that he wouldn't be able to survive Sasuke's trumpcard.



Ok, I am saying that activating Susanoo incurs drawbacks. (blindness, chakra, possible pain) You are saying this is not the case.

So how can you explain Itachi's reluctance to use a jutsu (Susanoo) that basically has zero or very little drawbacks (your view, not mine) in favor of ones that have heavy drawbacks? (Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi)

It is a rhetorical question of course. You can't explain it because it makes no sense. Itachi could have easily "flash activated" Susanoo to escape the toad stomach. Cost less chakra, incurs less harmful side effects if you premise is correct.

The fact that Itachi never did use it like this while living indicates the drawbacks associated with it are significant enough (perhaps not as significant) as the other MS jutsus.



> I've already provided evidence that Sasuke used Susano'O around 5-6 minutes during the Danzo fight, that is more t han the total of Itachi's Susano'O usage on panel. And Sasuke used it for a couple of minutes priorly in the summit as well.



Impossible to know how long Sasuke had Susanoo active in the Danzo fight. Could have been 10 minutes, could have been 2 minutes. Your number is arbitrary.



> If by living Itachi you mean deathbed Itachi you are correct.
> Otherwise you are not.
> We've seen Itachi use Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu in rapid succession without any sign of physical drawbacks aside from chakra exhaustion.



Is chakra exhaustion not a physical toll? Is blindness not a physical toll? Presumably he experienced pain from Amaterasu as we have always seen that associated with it's use.

All are physical drawbacks that Edo Itachi showed no signs of experiencing and/or was overcome by Edo regen and chakra regen.

Like I said before, Living Itachi could replicate edo Itachi's feats at the cost of pain, blindness and possibly death.




> Because we've already seen him use Tsukiyomi & Amaterasu in rapid succession with literally 0 physical drawbacks,



Covered above.



> and we've only seen him go through Susano'O's side effects when he was at the brink of death while he was using the highest incarnation of Susano'o for over 30 seconds. Using lower versions for a few seconds consecutively would be less physically draining, and given the size of the chakra construct the chakra invested should be alot less with smaller ones as well.



Covered above as well.



> As a side note :
> We can debate it on a seperate thread if you like but since you seem to be under the impression that power inflation doesn't exist, I want your take on how Kakashi went from not being able to walk straight after using MS once to basically consistenly using it with almost no physical drawbacks, within the span of a few weeks.
> 
> And how did he increase his daily Raikiri limit in those 2.5 years as well as got rid of the severe drawbacks of sharingan on his non competible non Uchiha body.
> Seeing that Kakashi had both Raikiri and Sharingan for 13 years, during the time he was an active nin, I'm just wondering why he waited to improve those for the time skip and manage to do so without any statistical improvements on his databook stats or any indication of a training or a statement made by himself or any other character.



"Power inflation" is a term invented by the fandom to explain a phenomenon they do not understand. It's not actually a real thing as far as the manga and it's creators are concerned.

Kakashi simply improved over the timeskip and throughout the manga.

Points out he is still young - here

Implication is that his development has not yet finished and pointing out he has developed a new jutsu. (Kamui)

Obviously Kakashi continued to grow throughout the manga. He went from Jounin, to high Jounin, to Kage. This isn't some magical arbitrary inflation, he simply progressed like many other did throughout the manga. Because the manga isn't specifically about Kakashi we aren't privy to the details of his growth, unlike Naruto and Sasuke.

The in-universe explanation to Kakashi continuing to strive to get better would be easy to attribute to Gai, who never stop training and thus pushes Kakashi forward.


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## kokodeshide (Mar 21, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Dropped, someone got too hot-blooded, you didn't provide any proof at all. Everything you said is as ambiguous as it can get...


Hot-blooded? No, annoyed that you clearly don't understand how any of this works. Your only response so far has been "Nah, I don't think so."
Where was your proof? I'll wait. Don't be a coward now.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Hot-blooded? No, annoyed that you clearly don't understand how any of this works. Your only response so far has been "Nah, I don't think so."
> Where was your proof? I'll wait. Don't be a coward now.


I edited my post, so read it up. I am as annoyed as you are, yet I am not showing *HALF* of the immaturity you are showing.


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## Sansho (Mar 21, 2019)

This shouldn't even be a question. Sure, Sasuke was strong enough to hold his own against Ay and a few others in the Kage Summit, but a healthy, non-blind Itachi with MS would be far too skilled for even Sasuke with MS. Hell, in their fight he still had to hold back against Sasuke, being deathly ill, near-blind, and the fact he wasn't trying to actually hurt Sasuke. Whereas Sasuke was trying to kill Itachi the entire time.

Then there isn't really anything Sasuke could do to counter the Totsuka Blade, which can supposedly cut through and seal anything, as well as damage Itachi's Susano'o due to the Yata Mirror. Sasuke may be okay against Tsukiyomi, but in terms of Amaterasu it's definitely not a game changer, especially as Itachi is well versed with his own MS ability, even despite the fact Sasuke could control his better.

MS Itachi was basically Hokage-tier, even Obito was afraid of him, and Sasuke at that point just couldn't match up to his older, far more genius brother.


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## kokodeshide (Mar 21, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Not to mention that EMS Sasuke can just enter V4 Susanoo, are you going to say it's less durable than Kimimaro's bones?


EMS? This is MS.
Plus, can you prove V4 is more durable or are you just assuming?


Artistwannabe said:


> Those bones were literally there in 1 panel and you base your whole argument on that.


Those bones are hard enough to stop Boosted Kusanagi cutting. This is shown by the samurai matching Sasuke yet failing to cut through the thin TIP of a regular Kimimaro bone. He also cut shuriken in half.
Kimimaro literally stalemated an ARMY of kusanagi-sharp cutting swordsman. Plus, he survived whatever KCM Naruto threw at him too.


Artistwannabe said:


> Not only that, but you can't even provide proof that those bones are more durable than a Susanoo in any way shape or form, you are using Danzo's wind jutsu as an example, yet you can't say if this same jutsu can cut the bones with ease. No offense but everything you are saying is based purely on your own speculation, and I am not buying any of that.


And where is your proof that Danzos wind jutsu could cut through a field of harder than steel spires? You have to proof that Danzos cutting power is above Kusanagi and Totsuka.


Artistwannabe said:


> Not to mention calling me a kid just shows how mature you are in this conversation.


If you say "NU-UHHH, IM NOT GONNA BELIEVE IT!" Without offering any counter point, I'm gonna treat you how you act. If you were to change that I would sincerely apologize.



Artistwannabe said:


> I edited my post, so read it up. I am as annoyed as you are, yet I am not showing *HALF* of the immaturity you are showing.


Yet one of us is actually contributing to the discussion.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 21, 2019)

And what are we supposed to go off of based on "healthy Itachi"?


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## Zembie (Mar 21, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> And what are we supposed to go off of based on "healthy Itachi"?


Literal fanfiction. Healthy Itachi can spam MS tech for 50 days without any side effects or something.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> EMS? This is MS.
> Plus, can you prove V4 is more durable or are you just assuming?


 sorry about that. My mind was still fresh from the debate with Comat0se and I was assuming you were talking about EMS Sasuke for some reason, that's a mistake on my part.



> Those bones are hard enough to stop Boosted Kusanagi cutting. This is shown by the samurai matching Sasuke yet failing to cut through the thin TIP of a regular Kimimaro bone. He also cut shuriken in half.
> Kimimaro literally stalemated an ARMY of kusanagi-sharp cutting swordsman. Plus, *he survived whatever KCM Naruto threw at him too*.


Sasuke's sword of Kusanagi isn't the same one Orochimaru had doe. It hasn't really shown any of the abilites the one Orochi had (Cutting through almost anything and having the power to change size)
Wait what hits did Kimimaru survive from Naruto?



> And where is your proof that Danzos wind jutsu could cut through a field of harder than steel spires? You have to proof that Danzos cutting power is above Kusanagi and Totsuka.


Yes, I have no proof of that, it was more of reverse logic, since we don't know if Totsuka's cutting power is special or not. Yes, it cut through Kimimaro's bones, but what makes you think that a Susanoo is less durable than that. It's more like your 2 arguments seem kind of unrelated, that is why I was confused when you first mentioned this feat at all. Unless we see Samurai's swords cutting up a Susanoo you can't say with a definitive word that the bones are more durable.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 21, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> And what are we supposed to go off of based on "healthy Itachi"?


Honestly I just threw it there so people don't say that he succumbs to his illness midfight or some shit like that.


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## kokodeshide (Mar 21, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> sorry about that. My mind was still fresh from the debate with Comat0se and I was assuming you were talking about EMS Sasuke for some reason, that's a mistake on my part.


No problems.


Artistwannabe said:


> Sasuke's sword of Kusanagi isn't the same one Orochimaru had doe. It hasn't really shown any of the abilites the one Orochi had (Cutting through almost anything and having the power to change size)
> Wait what hits did Kimimaru survive from Naruto?


The main feature of Kusanagi is its cutting ability, not its stretching or anything else. Shit, Sasukes Kusanagi, when used with enough force cut JJ Madara in half.

And The fight with Naruto was off panel, im just saying, he lived through whatever naruto did. not a real point, simply a matter of fact.


Artistwannabe said:


> Yes, I have no proof of that, it was more of reverse logic, since we don't know if Totsuka's cutting power is special or not. Yes, it cut through Kimimaro's bones, but what makes you think that a Susanoo is less durable than that. It's more like your 2 arguments seem kind of unrelated, that is why I was confused when you first mentioned this feat at all. Unless we see Samurai's swords cutting up a Susanoo you can't say with a definitive word that the bones are more durable.


Ok, Let me expand upon it then. It terms of cutting power.
A4's Chop=<Chidori=<Lightning Kusanagi
A4's Chop totally cut through and obliterated the part of the V1 Susano it hit. So should a Chidori Jab or a Kusanagi thrust.
Lightning Kusanagi=Chakra Blade
Chakra blade<Edo Kimimaros thin bone.
And since susano is just layers of more chakra, nothing indicates they are any harder, you can imply that if you increased the force behind A4s Chop, he could cut through more susano. This is even proven when he is in backpack form.
So
Kunai<<<<V1 Susano<A4 Chop=Chakra Blade=Chidori=Lightning Kusanagi<Thin Kimimaro bone<Thick Kimimaro bone=<thick sage Kimimaro bone<<<<<<<<30 thick sage kimimaro bones<<<<Totsuka. 

All in all, We know a thin amount of kimimaro bone is harder than V1 Susano. And since V2 and V3 Susano is just more layers of susano chakra,  we can also assume that thicker layers of bone would still be harder. And since Itachi cut through MANY layers of bone FAR thicker than what the Chakra blade failed to cut through, it is well within reason and logic to assume Totsuka can cleave through susano like butter.


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## Artistwannabe (Mar 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> No problems.
> The main feature of Kusanagi is its cutting ability, not its stretching or anything else. Shit, Sasukes Kusanagi, when used with enough force cut JJ Madara in half.
> 
> And The fight with Naruto was off panel, im just saying, he lived through whatever naruto did. not a real point, simply a matter of fact.
> ...


Hey bud, no offense but Sasuke didn't use the Kusanagi blade when he cut Madara in half. What he used was a raiton blade. This is the feat you should have used:

Naruto may have did jackshit in the fight for all we know lol

Idk Sasuke's Kusanagi blade is weird, it doesn't have the same design, have the power to make itself longer, nor did it cut through almost everything, I can't really find that much info on the blade doe, everything on the internet says its just a normal blade or some shit.


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## kokodeshide (Mar 21, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Hey bud, no offense but Sasuke didn't have the Kusanagi blade when he fought Madara. What he used was a raiton blade.


True, my mistake, either way, still pierced him.
 reported.



Artistwannabe said:


> Idk Sasuke's Kusanagi blade is weird, it doesn't have the same design, have the power to make itself longer, nor did it cut through almost everything, I can't really find that much info on the blade doe, everything on the internet says its just a normal blade or some shit.


Every kusanagi has a different design. Totsuka is blade of Kusanagi too, look at how weird it looks. The first Kusanagi didn't extend. The 3rd and 4th don't extend either. But all of them are specifically good cutting weapons. And Kusanagi didn't cut through everything either. You need the power to cut though something before you can cut through it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 21, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Ok, so my point is Itachi's pushing himself to the limit is what caused him to die then and there. Sure he was going to die soonish at some point, but if he did not push himself he would have lived for an undetermined amount of time.


And my point is that he pushed himself to his "limit" earlier, because of his illness.
I'm pretty sure there is a middle ground here.



> Yes the response would be different, but do not conflate physical strain with chakra capacity.


They are 100% directly related.
 reported.
 reported.

Both stamina and chakra dwell on body and spiritual energy.
A frail body will have less chakra reserves, thus reach to it's limit faster.


> No, you are repeating your interpretation of what the manga shows.


I'm pretty sure my interpretation in this case coincides with the manga.


> You are not presenting a logically consistent argument. Itachi was not old, he was sick. You are conflating the effects of old age with  sickness. They are not the same and we have no reason to auume the effects are identical.


I wasn't presenting the idea of them being identical. I was just saying that they are similar.
Older the people get, the weaker their body become. Since chakra is basically a mixture of body and spiritual energy, a weaker body will be capable of creating less chakra compared to a healthier body.



> You are also making an argument that Living Itachi, who has always been sick it seems, will somehow replicate the performance of Edo Itachi, who is basically impervious to physical drawbacks and sickness.
> 
> What?


I've already proved that Itachi wasn't sick in part 1. Or even if he was sick, then the health detriments of his illness weren't as significant as during his fight with Sasuke. He pushed himself to the brink of chakra exhaustion and he never coughed blood or showed the same amount of physical distress. 
Which is also confirmed by Zetsu based on the comparison he made.

So yes, unless we are specifically talking about deathbed Itachi, his MS  usage would be alot better, meaning similar amount of MS usage won't kill him or have the same effects on his body.



> ie; you would never want to spam Susanoo if you are Itachi. Which he evidently did not until he was an Edo.


"Spamming" in other words "quickly activating and deactivating lesser variants for more economical use" never became contextually relevant when he was alive. So there is no point of mentioning it.



> I think it has a worse overall drawback.
> Each use of an MS jutsu causes damage to the eye, varying degrees of course. As a living entity with the MS you would  want to avoid multiple activation's of MS jutsus in order to avoid losing your sight too fast.


 reported.
If the damage done to the eyesight is proportional to the damage on the body, then the same princible would apply here. Using a higher variant for a longer period of time would drain the eyesight faster which is also what we've observed with Sasuke. 



> This is consistent with what we have seen in the manga. Itachi, who fought very smart and efficient, did not abuse his MS usage and as such avoided blindness for a very long time. Sasuke basically went blind 10X faster than Itachi


It isn't consistent in the way you are describing it though. Sasuke lost most of his vision because he kept using higher versions of Susanoo'O against Danzo, instead of using the lower variants for quick bursts which you claim that Itachi can't do because how taxing it should be which in itself is contradictory.

We also haven't seen Itachi on panel as much as Sasuke, we have no idea about his MS usage. So it is hard to know how quickly Sasuke became blind compared to Itachi(we know that Madara lost his MS faster than his brother). 
But at the end of his bout with Kakashi, Sasuke's vision was just as bad as Itachi's during the time when Itachi first confronted him.
 reported.
 reported.



> MS user's can become blind and experience physical pain without using Susanoo via Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.



Eyes yes, but not on their body. 

Susano'O is different than Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi both mechanically and in princible. Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu are aim and shoot techniques that need the eyes to operate. 
Susano'O can be used without eyes, it is emitted from the body. So the physical distress is mostly on the body. It causes blindness yes(which makes no sense), but again the drain on the eyesight should be proportional to its usage.



> Sasuke is also younger and stronger


He definitely wasn't stronger during the summit or during his fight with Danzo. And the age difference should be 5. Which is irrelevant, Itachi was 21 when he died.



> , but he does experience eye pain when using Amaterasu or his shitty version of Tsukuyomi. All MS justsus cause some form of pain and the onset of blindness.


Never denied that part about Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu. But even then, the distress cause by those jutsu also do vary, based on evidence so we have to keep that in mind.

I'm simply talking about the distress of Susano'O that you keep referring to.
Sasuke never felt the physical distress until he kept Susano'O on for long periods of time which he himself admitted. 



> Blindness is significant.


Blindness is a cumulative effect. 



> Perhaps chakra depletion isn't always significant, but there will always be some significant drawback.


I guess it depends on what you mean by significant and how quantifiable it is.



> Blindness and chakra usage are consequential.


Like I said, blindness is a cumulative and a rather unquantifiable effect. But if it is in correlation with how taxing a technique is, then like I said above, lower stages of Susano'O used for short durations shouldn't accelerate blindness as much as higher variants being used for longer durations as they have shown to be much more taxing.



> Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu always cause pain and blindness in the eyes


With varying degress, yes. But I was strictly referring to that instace where we haven't seen a significant distress on Itachi after he used both of those techniques in rapid succession.


> Death and blindness come to mind.


He was already blind at that point and he didn't die while he was using the strongest incarnation of Susano'O.
Physical distress showed itself after he sealed Orochimaru.
So I have to ask you, how is activating and deactivating a lesser variant going to cause a significant distress ?


> Yes his health is partially responsible for his death but HE WOULD NOT HAVE DIED THERE were it not for pushing himself to his limits.
> You don't get to hang his death on only ninja aids when his physical exertion and MS use obviously accelerated it.


By the same token, we could say that he would have more limits to push if he wasn't dying of a terminal illness. 



> Ok, I am saying that activating Susanoo incurs drawbacks. (blindness, chakra, possible pain) You are saying this is not the case.


Well lets make this clear first. You are saying that activating Susano'O incurs drawbacks as much as any other MS technique does.
And I'm saying that not every drawback is equal to one another.



> So how can you explain Itachi's reluctance to use a jutsu (Susanoo) that basically has zero or very little drawbacks (your view, not mine) in favor of ones that have heavy drawbacks? (Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi)


I never said it has zero drawbacks. I said the drawbacks are in direct correlation with the stage and duration of the Susano'O that is being used.



> It is a rhetorical question of course. You can't explain it because it makes no sense. Itachi could have easily "flash activated" Susanoo to escape the toad stomach. Cost less chakra, incurs less harmful side effects if you premise is correct.


So you think I can't explain it because it doesn't make any sense but it does when you explain it through absence of evidence  ?



> The fact that Itachi never did use it like this while living indicates the drawbacks associated with it are significant enough (perhaps not as significant) as the other MS jutsus.


Susano'O didn't exist in part 1. Even Amaterasu was a mystery. His MS looked like a regular 3 tomoe until chapter 220 or something.
It is very clear that MS wasn't a fleshed out concept when we first saw it.

You are a smart fella, don't fall into these  traps.



> Impossible to know how long Sasuke had Susanoo active in the Danzo fight. Could have been 10 minutes, could have been 2 minutes. Your number is arbitrary.


It is not arbitrary:  reported.
As you can see, Sasuke deactivates Susano'O when 3 eyes are left on Danzo's arm(each eye lasts 1 minute) and the rest of the fight is offpaneled.
But we know that Sasuke had Susano'O on for the majority of those 7 minutes. So it can't be 2 minutes. Say 4-5 if you want to lowball it.



> Is chakra exhaustion not a physical toll? Is blindness not a physical toll? Presumably he experienced pain from Amaterasu as we have always seen that associated with it's use.
> 
> All are physical drawbacks that Edo Itachi showed no signs of experiencing and/or was overcome by Edo regen and chakra regen.


I said "physical tolls aside chakra exhaustion." 
While it is obvious that the ET Itachi came with fresh eyes, he still might be losing his sight with each use. Izanami made him blind in one eye and it didn't regen. We've also seen his eye bleed despite being an edo. So I'd say ET didn't negate inherent mechanics of the techniques. We've seen this through Gengetsu, when he used Joki boi his body was weakened just like it would be when he was alive.



> Like I said before, Living Itachi could replicate edo Itachi's feats at the cost of pain, blindness and possibly death.


Well what he did as an edo in any of those battles wouldn't fully exhaust his chakra so we can leave "death" out of the options. You are right on the others. But we have to add, pain and blindness with varying degrees of course.



> "Power inflation" is a term invented by the fandom to explain a phenomenon they do not understand. It's not actually a real thing as far as the manga and it's creators are concerned.
> 
> Kakashi simply improved over the timeskip and throughout the manga.
> 
> ...



Agree to disagree then.
Other than "developing a new jutsu" which is clearly referring to Kamui(which is also funny because he didn't develop it), there is literally no evidence that Kakashi improved from part 1 to part 2. Also the incompatibility of his non Uchiha body is not something that can be overcome with training, especially considering that he had 13 years to do it before the time skip and admitted that it was still a hindrance during the part 2 bell training.
Anways, I just wanted to hear what you thought about it, it is clearly we are on the other sides of the spectrum.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 21, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And my point is that he pushed himself to his "limit" earlier, because of his illness.
> I'm pretty sure there is a middle ground here.



I understand that, but you are unable to establish that Itachi's "healthy" limit is actually different.



> They are 100% directly related.
> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> ...



There is nothing there to indicate that sick and old are the same.

You can be sick without a frail body. You can also be old with a frail body without losing chakra capacity. (Onoki)



> I'm pretty sure my interpretation in this case coincides with the manga.



Disagree.



> I wasn't presenting the idea of them being identical. I was just saying that they are similar.
> Older the people get, the weaker their body become. Since chakra is basically a mixture of body and spiritual energy, a weaker body will be capable of creating less chakra compared to a healthier body.



I understand that you think they are related, but evidence of such has not been presented.

Speculation that Itachi's chakra capacity was less because he was sick cannot be supported with more speculation. Adding speculation to existing speculation does not qualify as proof.



> I've already proved that Itachi wasn't sick in part 1.



Ok sure, let's go with the idea that Itachi wasn't sick in part 1.

Here is his jutsu usage with no obviously drawbacks beyond the usual physical discomfort.

"Healthy" Itachi - 7 jutsus, 3 MS
Genjutsu counter - Link removed
Water Jutsu - Link removed
Exploding Shadow Clone  - Link removed
Tsukuyomi 1 - Link removed
Genjutsu on girl - Link removed
Tsukuyomi 2 - Link removed
Amaterasu - Link removed

"Death Bed" Itachi  6 jutsus, 3 MS (possibly 4)
Genjutsu - Link removed
Tsukuyomi - Link removed
Katon - Link removed
Big Katon & Amaterasu - Link removed
Susanoo - Link removed

3 MS Jutsus for each showing, (maybe 4 in the dying instance) 1 more jutsu in part 1 but used Susanoo in part 2. Doesn't appear to be much different between the two. In fact they are consistent with each other.



> Or even if he was sick, then the health detriments of his illness weren't as significant as during his fight with Sasuke. He pushed himself to the brink of chakra exhaustion and he never coughed blood or showed the same amount of physical distress.



Yes he is sick in part 2. The argument is if his chakra capacity was significantly different. Jutsu usage suggests it was not.



> Which is also confirmed by Zetsu based on the comparison he made.



Zetsu confirmed his physicals were hindered, but nothing about his chakra capacity. Since Zetsu was basically there to offer exposition if Kishi wanted to highlight diminished chakra capacity one would think Zetsu would bring it up.



> So yes, unless we are specifically talking about deathbed Itachi, his MS  usage would be alot better, meaning similar amount of MS usage won't kill him or have the same effects on his body.



You say Itachi was healthy in part 1, yet his jutsu usage is not significantly different that "death bed" Itachi.

This would suggest the opposite of your premise - that his chakra capacity was the same, but the toll on his body was more pronounced.

If his jutsu usage wasn't much different how can you assume that his healthy self should be able to do more? His healthy self never demonstrated the ability to do more.



> "Spamming" in other words "quickly activating and deactivating lesser variants for more economical use" never became contextually relevant when he was alive. So there is no point of mentioning it.



A jutsu with very little drawbacks and chakra investment would always be contextually relative.



> Link removed
> If the damage done to the eyesight is proportional to the damage on the body, then the same princible would apply here. Using a higher variant for a longer period of time would drain the eyesight faster which is also what we've observed with Sasuke.



Again, you cannot prove a premise based on speculation by offering more speculation.

Where does it say the drain on the eyes coincides with the damage to the body?

In fact the opposite is indicated via Inzanagi and Inzanami. Both jutsus completely seal the eye without causing any obvious pain or damage to the body.

Link removed

Link removed

Neither instance show pain to the body but both completely seal the eye.



> It isn't consistent in the way you are describing it though. Sasuke lost most of his vision because he kept using higher versions of Susanoo'O against Danzo,



Say who?

Itachi said that using more MS techs accelerates the blindness, it was never attributed to Susanoo or that continued use of Susanoo would cause the most acceleration. Repeated uses would qualify as more.



> instead of using the lower variants for quick bursts which you claim that Itachi can't do because how taxing it should be which in itself is contradictory.



It's taxing to *Itachi*, not Sasuke. We know Sasuke has more stamina.



> We also haven't seen Itachi on panel as much as Sasuke, we have no idea about his MS usage. So it is hard to know how quickly Sasuke became blind compared to Itachi(we know that Madara lost his MS faster than his brother).



It's true we haven't seen much of Itachi, but the times we have seen him, his limit was consistent.

You have to gather data from the examples available. The data suggests consistency.



> But at the end of his bout with Kakashi, Sasuke's vision was just as bad as Itachi's during the time when Itachi first confronted him.
> Link removed
> Link removed



Sasuke's is actually worse. Less detail (cannot see Kakshi's eyes) and Sasuke's MS can't be seen while Itachi's is still visible.



> Eyes yes, but not on their body.



Sure, but drawbacks are still drawbacks.



> Susano'O is different than Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi both mechanically and in princible. Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu are aim and shoot techniques that need the eyes to operate.
> Susano'O can be used without eyes, it is emitted from the body. So the physical distress is mostly on the body. It causes blindness yes(which makes no sense), but again the drain on the eyesight should be proportional to its usage.



Covered the proportional damage above.



> He definitely wasn't stronger during the summit or during his fight with Danzo. And the age difference should be 5. Which is irrelevant, Itachi was 21 when he died.



Sasuke has always been stronger (ie:stamina) bodywise than Itachi. His stamina rating was always higher.



> Never denied that part about Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu. But even then, the distress cause by those jutsu also do vary, based on evidence so we have to keep that in mind.



The damage from Amaterasu has been very consistent.



> I'm simply talking about the distress of Susano'O that you keep referring to.
> Sasuke never felt the physical distress until he kept Susano'O on for long periods of time which he himself admitted.



Yes but it causes blindness. When talking about why Living Itachi would not be capable of spamming Susanoo, the fact the each usage causes blindness would be an obvious reason.



> Blindness is a cumulative effect.



Still a significant drawback. One of the most significant for a doujutsu user.



> I guess it depends on what you mean by significant and how quantifiable it is.



If the majority of your abilities stem from your eyes one would think that going blind would be significant.

You may disagree.



> Like I said, blindness is a cumulative and a rather unquantifiable effect. But if it is in correlation with how taxing a technique is, then like I said above, lower stages of Susano'O used for short durations shouldn't accelerate blindness as much as higher variants being used for longer durations as they have shown to be much more taxing.



Covered this speculation above.

Itachi simply stated "the more you use these eyes". Spamming Susanoo, even lower stages would qualify as more.



> With varying degress, yes. But I was strictly referring to that instace where we haven't seen a significant distress on Itachi after he used both of those techniques in rapid succession.



Amaterasu was used off panel so we could not see what type of distress it may have caused.

Logically it would have caused the same distress *that we have always seen it cause* when used by non EMS/Edo.



> He was already blind at that point and he didn't die while he was using the strongest incarnation of Susano'O.



Yes, blindness caused by using Susanoo - 
Link removed



> Physical distress showed itself after he sealed Orochimaru.



He was always physically distressed. Spitting blood, panting. He just starting dying after sealing Oro.

Link removed
Link removed



> So I have to ask you, how is activating and deactivating a lesser variant going to cause a significant distress ?



It's going to cause blindness, which a Living Itachi would logically avoid as much as possible, in part disqualifying his ability to replicate Edo's performance.



> By the same token, we could say that he would have more limits to push if he wasn't dying of a terminal illness.



You could say anything.

The issue is proof to support what you say.



> Well lets make this clear first. You are saying that activating Susano'O incurs drawbacks as much as any other MS technique does.



No, I am saying it incurs significant drawbacks. I never said anything about equality.



> I never said it has zero drawbacks. I said the drawbacks are in direct correlation with the stage and duration of the Susano'O that is being used.



The question still stands - why would Itachi not use a jutsu that incurs less drawbacks than his other jutsus?



> So you think I can't explain it because it doesn't make any sense but it does when you explain it through absence of evidence  ?



It's your premise that "flash" activations of Susanoo carry little drawbacks. That is inconsistent with what we have seen in the manga that all MS uses cause blindness. Logically Living Itachi would do his best to avoid accelerating his blindness.

Anyway, covered most of this above.



> Susano'O didn't exist in part 1. Even Amaterasu was a mystery. His MS looked like a regular 3 tomoe until chapter 220 or something.
> It is very clear that MS wasn't a fleshed out concept when we first saw it.



Pretty sure Itachi's MS wasn't actually shown in part 1. The panels always cut away when he was engaging his MS. 



> You are a smart fella, don't fall into these  traps.



Are we using real world explanations for the manga or not?



> It is not arbitrary: Link removed
> As you can see, Sasuke deactivates Susano'O when 3 eyes are left on Danzo's arm(each eye lasts 1 minute) and the rest of the fight is offpaneled.
> But we know that Sasuke had Susano'O on for the majority of those 7 minutes. So it can't be 2 minutes. Say 4-5 if you want to lowball it.



Probably about half and half, so 4 minutes is a good estimate.



> I said "physical tolls aside chakra exhaustion."
> While it is obvious that the ET Itachi came with fresh eyes, he still might be losing his sight with each use.



Sure it's possible, but no evidence to suggest this.



> Izanami made him blind in one eye and it didn't regen.



The cost of the forbidden jutsu is permanent loss of light in the eye. I don't think Edo can overcome a cost. (Joki Boy) 

EMS Madara lost his sight to Izanagi despite EMS providing "infinite light" to the eyes, suggesting that the usage of MS causes damage while the use of the forbidden jutsus is a cost.

Regardless we know they are different.



> We've also seen his eye bleed despite being an edo.



Bleeding eyes is a manifestation of using amaterasu, it isn't a "drawback" as EMS Sasuke also has his eyes bleed despite EMS bypassing the drawbacks.

Link removed
Link removed



> So I'd say ET didn't negate inherent mechanics of the techniques. We've seen this through Gengetsu, when he used Joki boi his body was weakened just like it would be when he was alive.



Edo does not bypass costs of jutsus, just regens physical drawbacks.




> Well what he did as an edo in any of those battles wouldn't fully exhaust his chakra so we can leave "death" out of the options. You are right on the others. But we have to add, pain and blindness with varying degrees of course.



I disagree.

Against Naruto/Bee/Nagato - 9 Jutsus/4 of them MS, 1 aborted MS attempt

Katon - Link removed
Katon shurikens - Link removed
Genjutsu - Link removed
Amaterasu aborted - Link removed
Amaterasu - Link removed
Susanoo - Link removed
Magatama - Link removed
Susanoo V4 - Link removed
Amaterasu - Link removed

Against Kabuto - 13 Jutsus/8 if we remove the Susanoo arms/5 MS + Izanami

*Susanoo arm - Link removed
Crow summon - Link removed
*Susanoo arm - Link removed
Susanoo v3? (remained on for most of the chapter) - Link removed
*Susanoo arm - Link removed
Susanoo v4? - Link removed
Crow bunshin - Link removed
Amaterasu - Link removed
Susanoo v3 - Link removed
Tsukuyomi - Link removed
*Susanoo arm - Link removed
Izanami activation - Link removed
*Susanoo arm - Link removed

Both instances Edo Itachi executed more jutsus that he ever did while alive, either part 1 or 2. 22 jutsus total with zero drawbacks indicated. No pain, no loss of sight except for Izanami.

Literally impossible for Living Itachi, any version, to execute 22 jutsus in a single day 9 of them MS.

Even if we break the usage down into each fight both Edo's surpass the living incarnations.

I mean you can believe what you like but I don't see the manga supporting your view. I think it is supposed to be obvious that Edo Itachi is superior to his living self in virtually every way.



> Agree to disagree then.



Fair enough.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Mar 22, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I understand that, but you are unable to establish that Itachi's "healthy" limit is actually different.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






I'll give you a chance to go back and check how many jutsu's Itachi used in his fight against Sasuke again.....

I'll give you 24 hours before I show everyone how ignorant you are.


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## hbcaptain (Mar 22, 2019)

Itachi wins, his techniques are on par with early EMS Sasuke, he is way smarter and has Totsuka to easily bypass MS Sauce's Susano'o.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 22, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Sasuke wins.
> 
> He counters all of itachi's jutsu perfectly well. The best thin itachi has to offer is hist Genjutsu skills which means jack-shit
> against Sasuke, so that's 99% of itachi's arsenal is already thrown out of the window



This. 

In fact, Itachi even said that the only reason Sasuke wouldn't kill him is only because he lacks the MS. After having the MS for a week, Sasuke could replicate Itachi's feats and go beyond them. That's not even considering that Sasuke has a better arsenal than Itachi when you exclude the MS.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 22, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> I'll give you a chance to go back and check how many jutsu's Itachi used in his fight against Sasuke again.....
> 
> I'll give you 24 hours before I show everyone how ignorant you are.



Funny coming from the guy willing to use Edo Itachi's chakra feats i.e. the version of Itachi whose chakra kept getting replenished as per Edo Tensei's function.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 22, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I understand that, but you are unable to establish that Itachi's "healthy" limit is actually different.


There is no way to establish it because the only time we've seen Itachi "go all out" on panel was during his fight with Sasuke and that happened to be around the time when he was in his deathbed.
We can only estimate how he would perform if he wasn't dying from an illness which was labeled as a very significant drawback by Zetsu(unknowingly of course).

An important thing to consider here is that in addition to its hefty chakra cost, MS also takes a toll on the body. Someone with a dying body would be more susceptible to it's physical drawbacks.



> There is nothing there to indicate that sick and old are the same.


I never said sick and old are the same.
The diagram simply explains how Chakra is manifested. It is created from spiritual and body energy.



> You can be sick without a frail body. You can also be old with a frail body without losing chakra capacity. (Onoki)


We haven't seen many sick people in the manga. Kimi and Orochimaru are probably the only ones that come to mind and Orochimaru expressed that he was reaching to his limits earlier due to his body rejecting him but you may argue that his situation was different. He was bedridden nontheless though.

Kimi's body didn't seem weak in particular, but then he was pumped up by god knows what Oro and Kabuto prepared for him and his bloodline in particular gives him a powerful body by the virtue of it's regenerative capabilities.
As for Onoki, we haven't seen him in his prime, so it is hard to tell.

Eitherway we know for a fact that the state of the body can have an effect chakra levels based on the diagram and what we are told about Hiruzen.



> Disagree.
> I understand that you think they are related, but evidence of such has not been presented.
> 
> Speculation that Itachi's chakra capacity was less because he was sick cannot be supported with more speculation. Adding speculation to existing speculation does not qualify as proof.


I presented the evidence. State of a persons body will have a direct effect on their chakra and stamina levels based on the diagram and what the anbu said about Hiruzen.
Which correlates with common sense. Go to the gym and trying doing an intense workout when you are bedridden sick and see if you can observe a difference.

If the only applicable evidence in the battledome is a direct statement or showing from the author then we can simply discard each others posts without adressing anything.



> Ok sure, let's go with the idea that Itachi wasn't sick in part 1.
> 
> Here is his jutsu usage with no obviously drawbacks beyond the usual physical discomfort.
> 
> ...



You forgot the 2 Karasbunshins he made earlier to intercept Naruto and Sasuke and his 2nd Amaterasu.

He used 2 Amaterasu in that fight :
1 : Link removed,
2 : Link removed
And the 2nd one was a long burst.
He also stopped the Amaterasu on Sasuke : Link removed
which is also a taxing MS ability apparently : Link removed

So the part 2 Itachi used more stuff than his part 1 healthy/healthier incarnation, and the 4th MS he used was the strongest MS Jutsu and used it for a while too.

So going by his part 1 limits, he should have been out of chakra after his 3rd MS(maybe even before considering he used more jutsu on top his MS in part 2).  But he kept his MS active, even when he was basically doing nothing but talking to Sasuke : Link removed
Meaning he wasn't close to fully exhausting his chakra at that point.
And then he proceeded to use his most taxing MS jutsu.



> Yes he is sick in part 2. The argument is if his chakra capacity was significantly different. Jutsu usage suggests it was not.


Like I told you, it is pointless to compare his jutsu usage to part 1 because he has shown capacity for more in part 2.
You explain that phenomena by saying that Kakashi got better, so explain it however you will.

I'm only using the part 1 display to point out that putting a strain on his body didn't effect him as much as it did when he was in his death bed, to clear out the false notion of MS usage bringing Itachi to his knees.



> Zetsu confirmed his physicals were hindered, but nothing about his chakra capacity. Since Zetsu was basically there to offer exposition if Kishi wanted to highlight diminished chakra capacity one would think Zetsu would bring it up.


He also said Itachi should have been much stronger :Link removed
He mentioned him coughing blood and thought he could have been severely wounded before the fight, and not necessarily because of MS overuse, that he specifically put aside.



> You say Itachi was healthy in part 1, yet his jutsu usage is not significantly different that "death bed" Itachi.
> 
> This would suggest the opposite of your premise - that his chakra capacity was the same, but the toll on his body was more pronounced.
> 
> If his jutsu usage wasn't much different how can you assume that his healthy self should be able to do more? His healthy self never demonstrated the ability to do more.


Itachi wasn't a fleshed out character in part 1.
There is arguably 5 years between the time he was introduced and the time he went all out.
I explain it via power inflation, you can explain it however you want but his part 2 incarnation has shown higher capacity, despite being ridden with a terminal illness.



> Again, you cannot prove a premise based on speculation by offering more speculation.
> 
> Where does it say the drain on the eyes coincides with the damage to the body?


It is not speculative to begin with.
We should have closed the page on this by now. *Sasuke outright states that the effects of Susano'O on his body increase as he uses it for longer durations. *
So it is not speculative, it is a manga fact.  As for the damage on eyesight correlation :

We've also seen Sasuke lose his eyesight as he used Susano'O longer and longer and it became very evident when he activated the last stage : Link removed
The higher the stage, higher the strain on the body : Link removed Bottom middle panel.
There is a correlation.



> In fact the opposite is indicated via Inzanagi and Inzanami. Both jutsus completely seal the eye without causing any obvious pain or damage to the body.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...


You'd have a point if they were MS jutsu, but they aren't.
Impossible a to draw a comparison from there as they operate on different mechanics.



> Say who?


Scans above.



> Itachi said that using more MS techs accelerates the blindness, it was never attributed to Susanoo or that continued use of Susanoo would cause the most acceleration. Repeated uses would qualify as more.


Itachi never specified anything about Susano'O.
Also in the case of Susano'O, a technique that is activated and sustained like a chakra shroud, using it more doesn't necessarily mean repeated uses, you just made that up. Good try though.



> It's taxing to *Itachi*, not Sasuke. We know Sasuke has more stamina.


I don't get it.
Using Higher variants for longer durations were shown and stated to be more taxing to the user by Sasuke, the guy with more stamina, so why would it be the other way around for Itachi ?



> It's true we haven't seen much of Itachi, but the times we have seen him, his limit was consistent.
> 
> You have to gather data from the examples available. The data suggests consistency.


Consistent data would require consistent variables.



> Sasuke's is actually worse. Less detail (cannot see Kakshi's eyes) and Sasuke's MS can't be seen while Itachi's is still visible.


I'd attribute it to distance. Kakashi is also standing further away from Sasuke.
But I think the point was to reference the instance of Itachi's POV, I highly doubt Kishi cared who was slightly better or worse.


> Covered the proportional damage above.


Counter covered by me.


> Sasuke has always been stronger (ie:stamina) bodywise than Itachi. His stamina rating was always higher.


I disagree.
Sasuke had trouble maintaining the ribcage and compared himself directly to Itachi implying he was inferior.

Sasuke also couldn't maintain Stage 4 more than a second, so "bodywise" he never reached to the level of Itachi during that arc.



> The damage from Amaterasu has been very consistent.


Fair enough but I'd argue that a smaller Amaterasu used for a shorter duration would put less strain on the eye than a bigger amaterasu with more sustain and focus.


> Yes but it causes blindness. When talking about why Living Itachi would not be capable of spamming Susanoo, the fact the each usage causes blindness would be an obvious reason.


Blindness is caused by using MS techniques. Use of Susano'O is defined by its activation time and it's power(level), so I'd say blindness the use of Susano'O would cause will be in direct proportion to that.



> Still a significant drawback. One of the most significant for a doujutsu user.
> If the majority of your abilities stem from your eyes one would think that going blind would be significant.
> 
> You may disagree.


Never claimed otherwise. I'm also taking about "per use."
Blindness as a cumulative effect is pretty severe.


> Covered this speculation above.
> 
> Itachi simply stated "the more you use these eyes". Spamming Susanoo, even lower stages would qualify as more.


Same, covered above.



> Amaterasu was used off panel so we could not see what type of distress it may have caused.
> 
> Logically it would have caused the same distress *that we have always seen it cause* when used by non EMS/Edo.


Still not enough distress to impede his capability of running. Anyways, it isn't significant enough on the body eitherway.



> Yes, blindness caused by using Susanoo -
> Link removed


Never claimed otherwise.



> He was always physically distressed. Spitting blood, panting. He just starting dying after sealing Oro.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed


He was already spitting blood before he used Susano'O, because he was ill.
And after he got up(which he was recovering from Kirin, not Susano'O)
Link removed
He was speaking pretty comfortably, with no sign of physical distress.



> It's going to cause blindness, which a Living Itachi would logically avoid as much as possible, in part disqualifying his ability to replicate Edo's performance.


Blindness unknown to what extend.  Also going blind doesn't prevent him from using Susano'O. We know that he went blind to use Susano'O, and he kept using it. So it doesn't discredit anything.




> You could say anything.
> 
> The issue is proof to support what you say.


I've provided an argument, your rebuttal is simply asking for proof.
If there is solid proof eitherway we wouldn't be arguing over it.



> No, I am saying it incurs significant drawbacks. I never said anything about equality.



You said Itachi used MS 7 times against Kabuto, counting each ribcage activation as 1 MS use and based your argument on that to prove that living Itachi, whose limit was 4 MS uses, wouldn't be able to replicate it.
If each MS use is not equal, then how did you came to the conclusion that 7 MS uses is more than 4 ?

That is the only the reason why this debate began.


> The question still stands - why would Itachi not use a jutsu that incurs less drawbacks than his other jutsus?


That question doesn't even exist to begin with. Like I said, Susano'O wasn't contextually relevant till Sasuke used Kirin.



> It's your premise that "flash" activations of Susanoo carry little drawbacks. That is inconsistent with what we have seen in the manga that all MS uses cause blindness. Logically Living Itachi would do his best to avoid accelerating his blindness.


Use of Susano'O is inconsistent with other MS jutsu. It acts like a chakra shroud and has varying levels of power which have varying levels of tolls on the user. And can be used without eyes.



> Pretty sure Itachi's MS wasn't actually shown in part 1. The panels always cut away when he was engaging his MS.


It was shown in part one for the first time here : Link removed which is long after he showcased its abilities.

Link removed 3 tomoe during Tsukiyomi
Link removed 3 tomoe after
So I'm pretty sure it wasn't a fleshed out design and Kisihmoto was purposefully holding on to it, even the anime team had to draw it like a 3 tomoe.


> Probably about half and half, so 4 minutes is a good estimate.


I'd say close to 6 given the panel time, but whatever suits you.



> Sure it's possible, but no evidence to suggest this.
> 
> The cost of the forbidden jutsu is permanent loss of light in the eye. I don't think Edo can overcome a cost. (Joki Boy)[
> 
> ...


That is a fair point but in case of MS the cost of using it is blindness. Itachi still had MS, so the cost should be the same for him.


> Bleeding eyes is a manifestation of using amaterasu, it isn't a "drawback" as EMS Sasuke also has his eyes bleed despite EMS bypassing the drawbacks.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed


I know, it emphasizes the strain put on the eye. In MS's case it causes perfmanent damage and EMS is simply immune to it.



> Edo does not bypass costs of jutsus, just regens physical drawbacks.


If simple regeneration overcame it, then I'd say medical jutsu would be able to heal it as well.


> I disagree.
> 
> Against Naruto/Bee/Nagato - 9 Jutsus/4 of them MS, 1 aborted MS attempt
> 
> ...


Let's see.
Katon and Katon shruikens  = 2 Katon Itachi used in his fight with Sasuke.
Genjutsu = Genjutsu he used against Sasuke.
He used 2 Amaterasu in both fights.
Magatama is basically weapon of Susano'O, if you will factor it in, then we should factor in Itachi using Yata no Kagami and Totsuka against Yamata no Orochi as well.
Eitherway deathbed Itachi used Susano'O for a longer duration.
Amaterasu he used against the crow was the smallest he ever used and was used after his fight against Nagato.
On top of this Itachi also used Tsukiyomi.
So deathbed Itachi used an additional MS shot and a longer Susano'O over his edo variant.
It is very clear that Deathbed Itachi exceeded the chakra Edo Itachi used here.



> Against Kabuto - 13 Jutsus/8 if we remove the Susanoo arms/5 MS + Izanami
> 
> *Susanoo arm - Link removed
> Crow summon - Link removed
> ...


Itachi never used V4 against Kabuto. He used a partial V3 when he first grabbed on to the snakes, and then used a full V3 to use Magatama, all were deployed for short durations.
Crow summon was used before his fight with Kabuto not against him, so it is irrelevant. I've already told you I'm not talking about capability, but rather display.

Itachi used one Amaterasu, and one Tsukiyomi and various stages of Susano'O bar the V4 for shorter periods of time, didn't exert too much physical energy, and used a single bunshin and Izanami. Even if we assume that Izanami's cost is significant, how is this more than what deathbed Itachi used ? It is basically less Susano'O, 1 Amaterasu less as well as other stuff.



> Both instances Edo Itachi executed more jutsus that he ever did while alive, either part 1 or 2. 22 jutsus total with zero drawbacks indicated. No pain, no loss of sight except for Izanami.


I covered it in detail above. Living Itachi used more jutsu per encounter.



> Literally impossible for Living Itachi, any version, to execute 22 jutsus in a single day 9 of them MS.


I agree, but never was argument to begin with, so don't see the relevance.



> Even if we break the usage down into each fight both Edo's surpass the living incarnations.


Nah.



> I mean you can believe what you like but I don't see the manga supporting your view. I think it is supposed to be obvious that Edo Itachi is superior to his living self in virtually every way.


I agree that ET Itachi is superior.
But he is superior because of what he is capable of, not because of what he has shown against Nagato or Kabuto.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 22, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> I'll give you a chance to go back and check how many jutsu's Itachi used in his fight against Sasuke again.....
> 
> I'll give you 24 hours before I show everyone how ignorant you are.



If I missed anything you are more then welcome to present it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 22, 2019)

I just reallized how long this has been going on off topic.
Any debate about Itachi really brings in the heat.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 23, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is no way to establish it because the only time we've seen Itachi "go all out" on panel was during his fight with Sasuke and that happened to be around the time when he was in his deathbed.
> We can only estimate how he would perform if he wasn't dying from an illness which was labeled as a very significant drawback by Zetsu(unknowingly of course).



And again, we have no evidence that Itachi could be capable of more than he showed.

Just because he was sick doesn't mean his chakra capacity was lower.



> An important thing to consider here is that in addition to its hefty chakra cost, MS also takes a toll on the body. Someone with a dying body would be more susceptible to it's physical drawbacks.



I would agree that Itachi probably wouldn't die pushing himself like this were he healthy, but there is no evidence he could push *more.*



> I never said sick and old are the same.
> The diagram simply explains how Chakra is manifested. It is created from spiritual and body energy.



Sure but it doesn't really prove anything.



> We haven't seen many sick people in the manga. Kimi and Orochimaru are probably the only ones that come to mind and Orochimaru expressed that he was reaching to his limits earlier due to his body rejecting him but you may argue that his situation was different. He was bedridden nontheless though.
> 
> Kimi's body didn't seem weak in particular, but then he was pumped up by god knows what Oro and Kabuto prepared for him and his bloodline in particular gives him a powerful body by the virtue of it's regenerative capabilities.



Kimi is an interesting case and similar to Itachi, yet nothing was said about diminished chakra capacity. 

Oro basically is impossible to compare as due to random bodies, body rejection and a damaged soul all contributing to his diminished state. 



> As for Onoki, we haven't seen him in his prime, so it is hard to tell.



There was no indication his jutsu usage was less, tho his body was actually weaker. This actually supports the premise that even if your body is weaker your chakra may not be.



> Eitherway we know for a fact that the state of the body can have an effect chakra levels based on the diagram and what we are told about Hiruzen.



Yes it can, but not always.

You obviously see the dilemma here. 



> I presented the evidence. State of a persons body will have a direct effect on their chakra and stamina levels based on the diagram and what the anbu said about Hiruzen.



*Can* have an effect, not necessarily that it *will*



> Which correlates with common sense. Go to the gym and trying doing an intense workout when you are bedridden sick and see if you can observe a difference.



If we were actually this concerned about common sense this discussion would have ended by simply counting the amount of jutsus Edo Itachi performed in a single day.

We can play the common sense game, but you need to commit to it. You can't just use it when it's convenient.



> If the only applicable evidence in the battledome is a direct statement or showing from the author then we can simply discard each others posts without adressing anything.



Then I suppose the issue here is what you consider "evidence".



> You forgot the 2 Karasbunshins he made earlier to intercept Naruto and Sasuke and his 2nd Amaterasu.



The 2 karabunshins were not during the fight, so I didn't forget them. If we are using the *day* as the benchmark of performance, which I actually prefer, then this discussion is basically over.

Edo Itachi - Single Day

Katon - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Katon shurikens - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Genjutsu - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Amaterasu aborted - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Amaterasu - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Susanoo - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Magatama - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Susanoo V4 - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Amaterasu - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Susanoo arm - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Crow summon - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Susanoo arm - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Susanoo v3? (remained on for most of the chapter) - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Susanoo arm - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Susanoo v4? - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Crow bunshin - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Amaterasu - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Susanoo v3 - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Tsukuyomi - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Susanoo arm - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Izanami activation - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Susanoo arm - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Cost is eyesight in 1 eye - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Genjutsu - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Genjutsu - that was what pushed Indra over the edge



> He used 2 Amaterasu in that fight :
> 1 : Link removed,
> 2 : Link removed
> And the 2nd one was a long burst.
> ...



You are correct on the second Amaterasu, my bad. I will add it to the list.



> So the part 2 Itachi used more stuff than his part 1 healthy/healthier incarnation, and the 4th MS he used was the strongest MS Jutsu and used it for a while too.



So the new list is - 

Part 1;

Genjutsu counter - Link removed
Water Jutsu - Link removed
Exploding Shadow Clone (50% chakra right there) - Link removed
Tsukuyomi 1 72 hours - Link removed
Genjutsu on girl - Link removed
Tsukuyomi 2 24 hours - Link removed
Amaterasu - Link removed

Part 2;

Genjutsu - Link removed
Tsukuyomi - Link removed
Katon - Link removed
Big Katon & Amaterasu - Link removed
2nd Amaterasu - Link removed
Susanoo - Link removed



> So going by his part 1 limits, he should have been out of chakra after his 3rd MS(maybe even before considering he used more jutsu on top his MS in part 2).  But he kept his MS active, even when he was basically doing nothing but talking to Sasuke : Link removed
> Meaning he wasn't close to fully exhausting his chakra at that point.
> And then he proceeded to use his most taxing MS jutsu.



I agree he did better in part 2, but it's not significant. Especially considering he went blind and died.

Also you can be out of chakra and leave your Sharingan on.

Link removed

Itachi turning off his Sharingan is likely a choice to conserve energy/rest.



> Like I told you, it is pointless to compare his jutsu usage to part 1 because he has shown capacity for more in part 2.



This is where your logic falls apart. Itachi did show slightly more "capacity" with his jutsu count, yet when we count Edo's jutsus you figure it's basically the same and downplay the significance of jutsu count.

Well why can't we do this here with part 1 Itachi as well? One could argue the 72 hour Tsukuyomi took the most toll on Itachi out of ALL his MS techniques. One could also argue that Itachi used a shadow clone in part 1 (called a shadow clone) which we know splits chakra in half. 


Now we know shadow clones fuck shit up for peeps with low chakra reserves like Itachi, so obviously this would account for a bulk of his chakra. The implication now is that Part 1 Itachi was operating at 50% chakra. 3 MS Techs on 50% chakra. That probably makes him superior to part 2 now. 

So either jutsu count matters or it doesn't. You cannot simultaneously  hang your argument on jutsu count while downplaying jutsu count when it doesn't agree with your perspective. Pick a poison, stick with it.



> You explain that phenomena by saying that Kakashi got better, so explain it however you will.



We already have an explanation - Itachi was willing to die in his part 2 fight with Sasuke. Thus he could push completely to his limits.



> I'm only using the part 1 display to point out that putting a strain on his body didn't effect him as much as it did when he was in his death bed, to clear out the false notion of MS usage bringing Itachi to his knees.



I agree his body was in better shape in part 1, but again, this does nothing to prove chakra reserves. 



> He also said Itachi should have been much stronger :Link removed
> He mentioned him coughing blood and thought he could have been severely wounded before the fight, and not necessarily because of MS overuse, that he specifically put aside.



Yes Itachi should have been physically stronger. He should have been faster and been able to resist the side effects of MS use better, but again NOTHING ABOUT CHAKRA CAPACITY.

Zetsu in this fight is literally an exposition machine, but he never mentions Itachi's chakra capacity.



> Itachi wasn't a fleshed out character in part 1.
> There is arguably 5 years between the time he was introduced and the time he went all out.
> I explain it via power inflation, you can explain it however you want but his part 2 incarnation has shown higher capacity, despite being ridden with a terminal illness.



Again we do not see a significantly larger capacity in part 2. That premise is still unproven. Considering part 1 Itachi used a shadow clone, it is still possible his part 1 self had more juice!



> It is not speculative to begin with.



Damage to the eyesight is proportional to the damage to the body.

That is speculation. Nowhere was it ever stated this is the case and has been proven opposite with regards Izanami/Izanagi.



> We should have closed the page on this by now. *Sasuke outright states that the effects of Susano'O on his body increase as he uses it for longer durations. *
> So it is not speculative, it is a manga fact.  As for the damage on eyesight correlation :



Yes his body is in pain, but premise isn't that Susanoo causes pain, your premise is that the damage to the body is correlated to the damage to the eyesight. 

Speculatory and also proven to not be the case in some instances.



> We've also seen Sasuke lose his eyesight as he used Susano'O longer and longer and it became very evident when he activated the last stage : Link removed
> The higher the stage, higher the strain on the body : Link removed Bottom middle panel.
> There is a correlation.



Susanoo activation causes damage to the eyes, this has always been my premise. You are not disproving that. 

This also proves nothing in regards to damage to the body being directly correlated to the eyes. Sasuke doesn't even appear to be in pain at this stage or distress from Susanoo, yet he went blind.

This scene proves that you can go blind with Susanoo on, which we already knew with Itachi.



> You'd have a point if they were MS jutsu, but they aren't.
> Impossible a to draw a comparison from there as they operate on different mechanics.



Why does it matter if they are MS or not?

The point is one can be blinded without physical pain. They are all sharingan techniques, same eyes similar effects.



> Itachi never specified anything about Susano'O.
> Also in the case of Susano'O, a technique that is activated and sustained like a chakra shroud, using it more doesn't necessarily mean repeated uses, you just made that up. Good try though.



Activation multiple times qualifies as "more". Keeping it on for extended periods qualifies as "more". It's what more means.



> I don't get it.
> Using Higher variants for longer durations were shown and stated to be more taxing to the user by Sasuke, the guy with more stamina, so why would it be the other way around for Itachi ?



Any version of Susanoo would be *more* taxing on Itachi as he is physically inferior to Sasuke. That is the point.



> Consistent data would require consistent variables.



Sure, but you don't get to toss out the data just because you don't like the variables.



> I'd attribute it to distance. Kakashi is also standing further away from Sasuke.
> But I think the point was to reference the instance of Itachi's POV, I highly doubt Kishi cared who was slightly better or worse.



Uh, no. You made a claim and offered evidence for that claim. Your evidence has been disproven. One is clearly worse than the other. You don't get to say X is worse when the evidence for X indicates better. I'm sorry this doesn't wash.



> I disagree.
> Sasuke had trouble maintaining the ribcage and compared himself directly to Itachi implying he was inferior.



Does Sasuke have more chakra than Itachi or not?

It doesn't matter.



> Sasuke also couldn't maintain Stage 4 more than a second, so "bodywise" he never reached to the level of Itachi during that arc.



Is maintaining Susanoo simply a physical trait or also a skill trait?



> Fair enough but I'd argue that a smaller Amaterasu used for a shorter duration would put less strain on the eye than a bigger amaterasu with more sustain and focus.



Possibly, but again arbitrary to say so and impossible to estimate by how much. like it puts similar strain.



> Blindness is caused by using MS techniques. Use of Susano'O is defined by its activation time and it's power(level), so I'd say blindness the use of Susano'O would cause will be in direct proportion to that.



Yes it's possible, but you run into the same issue of arbitrarily downplaying smaller activation with the idea that they are somehow much less.

We don't know how much less they are, but we do know more MS uses is worse for the eyes.



> Never claimed otherwise. I'm also taking about "per use."
> Blindness as a cumulative effect is pretty severe.



Fair enough.



> Still not enough distress to impede his capability of running. Anyways, it isn't significant enough on the body eitherway.



It would be as significant as always implied, some blindness and pain to the eye.



> Never claimed otherwise.





> He was already spitting blood before he used Susano'O, because he was ill.
> And after he got up(which he was recovering from Kirin, not Susano'O)
> Link removed
> He was speaking pretty comfortably, with no sign of physical distress.



Ok, so here is a perfect example of this discussion - you make alot of arbitrary assumptions with no  conclusive evidence either way. You make that decision in a manner that you prefer rather than admitting you don't know. Again, I don't really care what you want to believe, but I must point this out.

If Itachi is basically always physically distressed how did you determine that his physically distressness was never caused by using Susanoo?

You have no way to determine what caused his physical distress, as such it is not possible to make a positive claim to the nature of the distress and you certainly cannot claim Susanoo causes none YOU JUST SPENT HALF A PAGE ARGUING HOW MUCH DISTRESS SUSANOO CAUSES.

Come on man.



> Blindness unknown to what extend.  Also going blind doesn't prevent him from using Susano'O. We know that he went blind to use Susano'O, and he kept using it. So it doesn't discredit anything.



Missing the point.

If Susanoo use cause blindness then obviously Living Itachi could simply never afford to use it in the manner Edo Itachi did.



> I've provided an argument, your rebuttal is simply asking for proof.
> If there is solid proof eitherway we wouldn't be arguing over it.



Fair enough.



> You said Itachi used MS 7 times against Kabuto, counting each ribcage activation as 1 MS use and based your argument on that to prove that living Itachi, whose limit was 4 MS uses, wouldn't be able to replicate it.
> If each MS use is not equal, then how did you came to the conclusion that 7 MS uses is more than 4 ?



The same way you concluded that Part 2 Itachi MS use was superior to part 1.

You can either run with that logic or not. I don't really care which just tell me which.



> That question doesn't even exist to begin with. Like I said, Susano'O wasn't contextually relevant till Sasuke used Kirin.



Again, if your premise is true, it would have always been relevant. The point here is the lack of use in the manner that Edo Itachi showed us indicates that your premise is unlikely.



> Use of Susano'O is inconsistent with other MS jutsu. It acts like a chakra shroud and has varying levels of power which have varying levels of tolls on the user. And can be used without eyes.



Yes, but Susanoo's drawbacks are consistent with the other MS techs. We are discussing the drawbacks, not the usage.



> It was shown in part one for the first time here : Link removed which is long after he showcased its abilities.
> 
> Link removed 3 tomoe during Tsukiyomi
> Link removed 3 tomoe after
> ...



I know it was shown, I am referring to the instances where a MS tech was used. Itachi's eyes were avoided both with Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. (Itachi's eyes in Tsukuyomi is an illusion not indicative of the real world)



> That is a fair point but in case of MS the cost of using it is blindness. Itachi still had MS, so the cost should be the same for him.



I would say Edo regen allowed Itachi to avoid or delay many of the MS drawbacks. (no blindness or pain from use) Maybe Edo Itachi could have gone blind eventually but clearly something was allowing him to perform without obvious drawbacks.



> I know, it emphasizes the strain put on the eye. In MS's case it causes perfmanent damage and EMS is simply immune to it.



Agree.



> If simple regeneration overcame it, then I'd say medical jutsu would be able to heal it as well.



Edo regen far exceeds any medical jutsu known. 



> Let's see.
> Katon and Katon shruikens  = 2 Katon Itachi used in his fight with Sasuke.
> Genjutsu = Genjutsu he used against Sasuke.
> He used 2 Amaterasu in both fights.
> ...



Deathbed - 
Genjutsu - Link removed
Tsukuyomi - Link removed
Katon - Link removed
Big Katon & Amaterasu - Link removed
2nd Amaterasu - Link removed
Susanoo - Link removed

Edo Nagato Fight - 

Katon - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Katon shurikens - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Genjutsu - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Amaterasu aborted - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Amaterasu - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Susanoo - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Magatama - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Susanoo V4 - that was what pushed Indra over the edge
Amaterasu - that was what pushed Indra over the edge

Magatama is considered a jutsu, not a weapon.



This is why it's different than Yata Mirror or SOT.

Itachi in the Nagato fight used more jutsus, same MS techs or more. (unsure that Magatama is consider an MS tech) all with no drawbacks.

Again, if you feel living Itachi could replicate Edo's performance with the risk of possible blindness or death, then I agree it's *possible*. However if you think he can do with virtually no issues, there is no chance.



> Itachi never used V4 against Kabuto.



How do you identify V4?



> Itachi used one Amaterasu, and one Tsukiyomi and various stages of Susano'O bar the V4 for shorter periods of time, didn't exert too much physical energy, and used a single bunshin and Izanami. Even if we assume that Izanami's cost is significant, how is this more than what deathbed Itachi used ? It is basically less Susano'O, 1 Amaterasu less as well as other stuff.



It's *only* comparable when you eliminate all the other Susanoo activation's. Once you add those in it clear edo Itachi used more stuff.



> I covered it in detail above. Living Itachi used more jutsu per encounter.



Covered.



> I agree, but never was argument to begin with, so don't see the relevance.
> 
> Nah.
> 
> ...



Then I suppose we are at an agree to disagree impasse. If jutsu count doesn't matter I'm not sure what metric you would accept to show Edo's performance as superior.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Mar 23, 2019)

Bookworm said:


> @ThirdRidoku who do you think wins?



I am glad you asked, sorry for the late response.

Itachi fodderstomps.

Like, some people just don't understand that Itachi could have killed Hebi Sasuke at any point in time really if that had been his desire.

Itachi is literally superior to Sasuke in every way imaginable.

*Reflexes*: Itachi reacted to Kirin which moves at 98,000 m/s. Itachi was also able to perceive and react to Muki Tensei and managed to generate a Susano'o arm in time to protect Sasuke. Sure, Sasuke wasn't the target of the attack, but we learned that in retrospect. The truth is, Sasuke couldn't mentally react at all to Muki Tensei, given that we always See him move to protect Itachi. But this time, he couldn't do it and expressed genuine  shock and concern.  These two feats blow Sasuke out of the water.

*Stamina*: I am well aware Itachi isn't any stamina beast. but his stamina is actually underrated. He is essentially outlasted Sasuke when you think about it, which was the goal coming into the fight, tire out Sasuke until Orochimaru is forced out. Even after suffering several injuries, including burn injuries from Kirin, Itachi still had enough in the tank to fight Orochimaru completely blind with a taxing V4 Susano'o. I'd argue that Itachi as an absolute low end is equal to Sasuke in stamina prior to Sasuke's ridoku boosts. He was using chakra taxing MS techniques and had used 3 crow clones as well the day of that fight.


*Skill: *Yes, as I said, he fought completely blind against Oro. You can clearly see his eyes were the same white color as when he casted Izanami against Kabuto.  Furthermore, Itachi stated "By the feel of it, this is Orochimaru's 8 headed serpent". We know every ninja can sense chakra on basic levels, even if they aren't sensory mode users. Check this thread for more details:

Itachi fought Oro's hydra on the cusp of death with a chakra taxing V4 Susano'o using sound, smell, basal levels of chakra sensing, skill, instincts, and experience. Sasuke has no feats like this at all. Itachi literally dodged Killer Bee's sword strike from behind without even looking at him while being distracted by KCM naruto. His situational awareness skills are top notch. He stalemated Killer Bee's seven sword style with kunai and Killer bee was unable to land a single blow on Itachi during the entire skirmish, proving his prowess with sharingan and taijutsu/kenjutsu  skill. Killer Bee fodderstomped Sasuke, enough said.
The bro can also perfectly curve kunai directly into Nagato's eyes and exploit veterbrate blindspots. Sasuke has no feat with shuriken at that level. Itachi can throw 22 kunai into Sasuke's eyes as soon as the fight starts, shit diff, just like he did to Nagato who has three times the vision of a normal human and can see exactly what his summons see.





*Speed:*
Oh my gosh this is a spite stomp in every category. Sasuke can't even see Itachi's hand seals when Itachi is remotely serious despite watching him from just  a few feet away in a shuriken clash, meanwhile Sasuke has no impressive hand seal speed feats.


 Itachi is fast enough with Body Flicker to circle around Killer Bee without Killer Bee noticing. Itachi is also fast enough to blitz Nagato without a mental reaction. Nagato literally has the reflexes to control 6 different bodies in Konoha and also has 3 times the visual field of a normal human. He casually reacted to Bee. But with Itachi, Nagato was given FOUR different sequential stimlui to react to and he STILL couldn't mentally react to Itachi.


Nagato's chameleon and hell realm were loooking at Itachi's kunai. That means Nagato was also looking at them. This is Stimulus 1. Lets' assume that they didn't see the kunai though even though they were directly going into their eyes.

Stimulus 2: Two of Nagato's security cameras went dark, that means he is immediately his summons have been blinded. Instinct tells you to prepare a defense for incoming threat.

Stimulus 3: Itachi literally is carrying a HUGE manifestation of his chakra around him. Even if Kabuto forgot to turn on sensory mode,  Nagato can still sense chakra on a basic level just like everyone else. If Itachi, a non sensor type,  can sense the chakra of the 8 headed hydra from more than 30 feet away despite *not being a sensor type*, than Nagato has no excuse for not sensing a massive, dense, and highly concentrated deity made of chakra coming from his right regardless if Kabtuo forgot about his *sensory mode *abilities, See here for more details  You don't need to be a sensor type to sense chakra people, so I don't want to hear it. It's been debunked since like the first arc of the manga ROFL.

Stimulus 4: The massive chakra ghosts plants down a hand next to Nagato a few feet away and starts sliding it. If you think the bro can't see a giant ass hand right next to him, then you are trolling. He saw it. This is the THIRD stimulus MINIMUM that Nagato's brain recieved since the moment Itachi threw  his kunai, and Itachi wasn't close when he threw them either. He was many feet away in the forest at the time he threw it. And yet Nagato couldn't register a startle response and activate Preta, the fastest and best defense  in his arsenal for a chakra construct like Susano'o. And we know Kabuto was in control of Nagato and was actively awaiting an ambush from Itachi and was hoping to capture him and rewrite his tag as well, so there is no excuse.

Given that even Nagato can't react to Itachi's body flicker, it's a uphill battle to claim that Sasuke can. Itachi can just flicker at Sasuke and slit his throat with a kunai,  there won't be a mental reaction.

I'd  be damned if someone could make a convincing argument that Sasuke can even mentally react to Itachi's Totsuka. That blade also humiliated Nagato with V4 thrusting speed. Nagato was standing somewhere between 40-50 feet away from  again, a large chakra construct. I already proved he can sense it regardless if Kabuto had full sensory mode turned on or not. The bro's chibaku tensei was destroyed and his enemies were hiding in the smoke, that much is common sense. He was awaiting their next move. He clearly saw the blade coming out of the smoke as well, his eyes were looking up at Susano'o. And then the blade courses through him without a mental reaction, no preta, no Shinra, not even an unconscious jerking of the body, he got shit diff'd by Totsuka's speed. The same thing happened to Oro. Oro has shown to be able to instinctively react to Sasuke's chidori stream. Yet with Totsuka, he was caught off mid sentence, couldn't react to it at all, and was visibly surprised in both his facial expression and thought box; he couldn't see the speed of the blade's thrust. And people wonder why I listen to a 300 chapter old statement from Black Zetsu claiming that Itachi was invincible with yata and Totsuka. The feats are there if you open your eyes and look at the panel, I can't help you with that all can do is reference you all the scans lmao.

If Itachi feels like it, he just launches his Sakegari blade at Sasuke as soon as the fight starts, there won't be a mental reaction to the thrust. Sasuke may be able to react to the formation of Susano'o, which would given him time to form his own Susano'o. But that's all I'm giving him. After that, he won't see the blade. All that is left is for Totsuka to pierce through Susano'o, and I believe it will. The blade is stated to lack a physical form and pierced through Nagato who is a durability beast, Itachi's other swords can cut through SM  Kabuto (durability monster) and Kimimaro's SM ehnanced bones. It can clearly cut like a normal sword but I believe that it can phase through any defense based on Black Zetsu's and Databook statements of it being ethereal. So yeah, Sasuke gets shit diff'd by Totsuka on all accounts.

Itachi uses the Body Replacement Technique but with Shadow clones, and with this technique he seems to be able to teleport to a location of his choice while leaving a shadow clone behind. He did this to the Konoha Jounin, he did to Sasuke despite Sasuke holding him and watching him, He did it to Nagato, Killer Bee, and kcm naruto, and Nagato didn't notice it until Itachi dispelled his shadow clone despite the fact that Nagato is a high level sensor and was physically holding him, and Itachi did it to EMS Sasuke and Kabuto TWICE despite them having an EMS and haxxed sensory abilities respectively. In all instances , Itachi seems to reappear either behind, in front, or above his opponents while duping them with a clone that is essentially indistinct from the original unless you are asspulldara. So yeah, his clone Body replacement technique alone one shots.  As soon as the fight begins, He leaves a clone in his place, reappears behind Sasuke  then stabs Sasuke in the back of his head with a kunai similiar to what he did to Kakashi's water clone back in Part one, a quick and merciful death for his beloved younger brother. Sasuke won't feel a thing nor see a thing.




*Genjutsu
*


This is a murderstomp. Sasuke couldn't see through Itachi's 3 tomoe genjutsu, Itachi had to release it for him then reveal the subterfuge by having the faux itachi lift two fingers and point to the fact that the real Itachi never left his chair. Tsykuyomi also one shots, Obito very clearly stated that Itachi held back in every way, and even shows a direct scan of Itachi's tsyukuyomi when he says this, so don't listen to anyone that claims other wise. Itachi can put his bro in Tskuyomi for 80 years if he wants just like he did to someone in the novel. A huge leap from that water downed Tsykuyomi he used on Sasuke rofl. We know Itachi can vary the power, he did 72 hours on Kakashi but only 24 hours on 12 yr old sasuke. Who knows how long he kept 6 yr old Sasuke in there during the night of the massacre, but Sasuke got back up from it rather immediately, which wouldn't have happened if Itachi was serious. So yea, Genjutsu Solos if PIS is turned off.


*Arsenal*


Even without Susano'o and the spirit weapons, Itachi's arsenal is much wider than Sasuke's and has the versatility to take on Susano'o. He can spawn water tendrils inside of Sasuke's Susano'o and attack him from the inside from all directions just like he did to Kakashi.. He has any water or wind technique that he has copied from his time as an anbu or Akatsuki member, and we know he copies techniques and is not opposed to using them because he did it to Kabuto in izanami.  Sasuke sticks to what he thinks he can  spam to victory, which is just amaterasu, susano'o chidori, and the occasional grand fireball.

*Experience/Intelligence/Tactical prowess/ Wisdom.*

Another murderstomp. Itachi not only has more years of fighting under his belt compared to Sasuke, he also has better quality. Itachi's genius allowed him to graduate the academy at a much younger age than Sasuke, something Sasuke was jealous of. Itachi was legit bossing around Kakashi at age 13, as the anbu black ops leader. Itachi wasn't even a man but he was ordering around a grown, experienced, and famous ninja like Kakashi. Itachi was killing and fighting ninjas much more experienced than himself in terms of time spent on the battlefield, showing how much of a prodigy he was. Hiruzen said Itachi was just as wise as he was at age 7, possibly wiser. Sasuke has no noteworthy feats that even come close to Itachi's level in this category.

Itachi's eye for misdirection is only rivaled by a few ninja in this manga.
He seamlessly combos his attacks together and each attack increases the chance that his next attack will land:

Against Kurenai: Genjutsu reflection, kunai slash, then kick

Against Kakashi: Shuriken ruse, water style from all directions, Shadow Clone Body Replacement technique and the real

Itachi stabs Kakashi's water clone from behind, The real Kakashi tries to attack the fake Itachi but realizes he actually needs to save Kurenai, and Itachi's clone explodes, then tsykuyomi follows. Kakashi even said that what Itachi did there was nothing compared to what 13 year old Itachi can do LMAO.

Against Hebi Sasuke: First, Genjutsu GG. Then, shuriken clash , Grapple + Shadow Clone Body Replacement technique  while the real Itachi throws 3 kunai from a safe distance away in mid air. Sasuke gets duped and throws his shuriken at the faux Itachi, faux Itachi explodes and disorients him, giving Itachi a free opening for Tsykuyomi GG. This is essentially more or less the same combo Itachi used on Kakashi. The fight against Sasuke ended there for me, everything else was just Itachi dragging things out.


Against Nagato Killer Bee and Naruto: Uses a fireball to draw everyone's attention. Then subs out with  a shadow clone using his Body Replacement technique. Later Reappears above Naruto and Bee,  then  profits with taijutsu. He could have detonated the clone he left under Nagato's arm with great clone explosion for a more dramatic diversion but he can't harm fellow edo tensei.

Against Bee: Flaming shuriken >  3 tomoe genjutsu >Finisher with shuriken.


Against EMS Sasuke and Kabuto:
Yakasa beads+ Sasuke's arrow to stun Kabuto and put him where Itachi wants him> Crow clone Body replacement technique>finisher with sword strike from behind after the crows disarm and disorient Kabuto.


Itachi's framework of fighting is to either open with Genjutsu GG either through his fingers or eyes, or alternatively: Fake out:*Ninjutsu/shuriken diversions--*> Subterfuge plus secondary fake out = *Body replacement shadow clone technique/genjutsu---*>* Finisher(Totsuka Blitz, Tsykuyomi, Amaterasu)* . In order to beat Itachi, you must be able to answer this 3  stage attack framework he always uses. Sasuke doesn't have what it takes. He loses at step one, where Itachi either opens with basic genjutsu or opens with shuriken techniques. 22 kunai to the eye or shackling stakes, pick your poision: But oops, actually Itachi is bloodlusted as per the OP , so 22 kunai to the eye it is. They all go into his "blindspot" just like they did to Nagato's.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Speedyamell (Mar 23, 2019)

Itachi wins.
Superior susanoo, plus use of clones and feints earn him a high diff win


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 25, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> And again, we have no evidence that Itachi could be capable of more than he showed.
> 
> I would agree that Itachi probably wouldn't die pushing himself like this were he healthy, but there is no evidence he could push *more.*


Itachi died because of his illness before  the fight was over. He technically never went out of chakra in that fight.

By your own admission you said that his illness would accelerate his death. That means if he wasn't dying already, then he could have sustained Susano'O for longer, which directly translates to higher chakra capacity.



> Just because he was sick doesn't mean his chakra capacity was lower.


In most cases it is. But if you think Itachi would be the outlier, then be my guest and provide your argument.



> Sure but it doesn't really prove anything.


It proves that chakra and stamina are created from body energy. A weaker body would be able to generate less body energy, thus less chakra.



> Kimi is an interesting case and similar to Itachi, yet nothing was said about diminished chakra capacity.


Absence of evidence isn't evidence.
No one was there to comment on his performance, and it would be OOC for Lee or Gaara(people who haven't met him before) to say something about his actual capability.

Also Kimi didn't keel over cough blood during mid fight, so whatever his illness might be, it did not have the same health detriments as Itachi's had, or they were simply negated by his bloodline.
Dude could regenerate his bones within seconds as well as skin and other tissue to a certain extend, so it is very likey that he can endure alot more punishment(contextually old age or illness in this case) than normal people.

Do you think Kimi is the best example to make an objective claim about the correlation between terminally ill people and body strength ?



> There was no indication his jutsu usage was less, tho his body was actually weaker. This actually supports the premise that even if your body is weaker your chakra may not be.



Jutsu usage for his younger self was never established nor it was relevant. Also we absolutely have no idea how "weak" his body was, relative to Hiruzen. His back problem, being the only weakness, is a very specific issue that even the young people can have. So that doesn't necessarily mean he had a weak body.



> [
> Yes it can, but not always.
> 
> You obviously see the dilemma here.
> ...


In most cases it does. Old people and terminally ill people have weaker bodies, that is the norm.

If feels like you are trying to prove the opposite by relying on outliers(old man with strong body, terminally ill dude with strong body).



> If we were actually this concerned about common sense this discussion would have ended by simply counting the amount of jutsus Edo Itachi performed in a single day.
> 
> We can play the common sense game, but you need to commit to it. You can't just use it when it's convenient.



Nah, it would have ended the moment you realized dying Itachi displayed more or less the same chakra capacity the edo variant has displayed in his fight against Kabuto or Nagato.



> The 2 karabunshins were not during the fight, so I didn't forget them. If we are using the *day* as the benchmark of performance, which I actually prefer, then this discussion is basically over.


But you cited the jutsu Edo Itachi used before and after his fights.
That is the only reason I mentioned the karasubunshins. Just keeping it honest.


> So the new list is -
> 
> Part 1;
> 
> ...



Especially considering he was already dying off an illness.
I think that is the real difference maker.




> Also you can be out of chakra and leave your Sharingan on.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> Itachi turning off his Sharingan is likely a choice to conserve energy/rest.


Or he was out out. I mean really out.




> This is where your logic falls apart. Itachi did show slightly more "capacity" with his jutsu count, yet when we count Edo's jutsus you figure it's basically the same and downplay the significance of jutsu count.
> 
> Well why can't we do this here with part 1 Itachi as well? One could argue the 72 hour Tsukuyomi took the most toll on Itachi out of ALL his MS techniques. One could also argue that Itachi used a shadow clone in part 1 (called a shadow clone) which we know splits chakra in half.
> 
> ...


I absolutely have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not comparing apples to oranges like you are.
I'm comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
When I say Jutsu count, I'm talking about his MS jutsus and I'm simply saying that the 3 MS shots he used in part 1(2 Tsukiyomi and 1 Amaterasu) would be more or less equal to his 3 MS shots in part 2(1 Tsukiyomi and 2 Amaterasu).

And if you want to get technical about the specifics of Tsukiyomi, then those 2 Amaterasu Itachi used in part 2 were much bigger than the one he used agains the toad stomach, given the spread of the flames on the wall.



> Now we know shadow clones fuck shit up for peeps with low chakra reserves like Itachi, so obviously this would account for a bulk of his chakra. The implication now is that Part 1 Itachi was operating at 50% chakra. 3 MS Techs on 50% chakra. That probably makes him superior to part 2 now.
> 
> We already have an explanation - Itachi was willing to die in his part 2 fight with Sasuke. Thus he could push completely to his limits.


Ok then we'll have to assume that those 2 crow bunshins Itachi used before the fight against Sasuke also split his chakra. What does that leave part 2 Itachi with ? 

At best you can argue that Itachi was able to cast 1 MS after splitting his chakra in half in part 1, which means he has enough chakra left for 1 MS shot at 50%. And then he during the time he left Konoha and faced Jiraiya, he regenerated X amount and used another 2.

Probably same logic would apply to part 2 Itachi. After the crowbunshins were gone, it was probbaly like an hour(maybe more it is hard to keep track of time) before Sasuke came and met him and he regenerated Y amount chakra.

Or, we can assume that when the clone is dispersed, whatever chakra capacity left untouched on the clone(in which case the exploding bunshin didn't use any jutsu other than exploding himself) goes back to the user.
So unless they used those Jutsus with their clones around, then it means absolutely nothing.



> Yes Itachi should have been physically stronger. He should have been faster and been able to resist the side effects of MS use better, but again NOTHING ABOUT CHAKRA CAPACITY.
> 
> Zetsu in this fight is literally an exposition machine, but he never mentions Itachi's chakra capacity.


Because from Zetsu's point of view, Itachi basically died  while walking towards Sasuke in a fight he seemed to be victorious. Itachi never technically went out of chakra in that fight. Why would Zetsu even mention chakra capacity specifically ?


> Again we do not see a significantly larger capacity in part 2. That premise is still unproven. Considering part 1 Itachi used a shadow clone, it is still possible his part 1 self had more juice!


So using Susano'O around 1 minute(I'd say slightly more but 1 if you want to lowball it), on top of lots of physical exertion(don't forget stamina also uses body energy like chakra) doesn't show superior chakra capacity ?
I adressed bunshin argument above.



> Damage to the eyesight is proportional to the damage to the body.
> 
> That is speculation. Nowhere was it ever stated this is the case and has been proven opposite with regards Izanami/Izanagi.


Susano'O damages the body the more it is used. It is a mechanic directly related to it's usage.
Also the longer you use Susano'O, the more it will damage the eyes sight.

Izanami and Izanagi are completely different jutsu. Why do we assume they operate in similar mechanics to other MS jutsu ?
Again, apples and oranges, you have no argument there.


> Yes his body is in pain, but premise isn't that Susanoo causes pain, your premise is that the damage to the body is correlated to the damage to the eyesight.
> 
> Speculatory and also proven to not be the case in some instances.



My argument is the damage to the eye sight should be in correleation with the usage of the jutsu. We should agree on this correct ?

Then the usage of Susano'O is defined by how long it is used for and how much power is invested in it(stages). The more you use it, the more toll on the body, also more damage to the eyes.
How is the toll on the body and damage to the eyes aren't correlated in that case ?



> Susanoo activation causes damage to the eyes, this has always been my premise. You are not disproving that.


I never disputed that. I only disputed that activating Susano'O for a brief second would be less taxing for the eyes than using it for longer periods of time.


> This also proves nothing in regards to damage to the body being directly correlated to the eyes. Sasuke doesn't even appear to be in pain at this stage or distress from Susanoo, yet he went blind.



Because he got a breather in between Danzo and Kakashi fights, he had Susano'O turned off.
We are told that Susano'O starts to take toll on the body the longer it is used.



> This scene proves that you can go blind with Susanoo on, which we already knew with Itachi.


This scene also proves that higher stages will take more toll on the eyes.
He immediately covered his eyes in pain as he upgraded to V4 and his sharingan was deactivated.



> Why does it matter if they are MS or not?
> 
> The point is one can be blinded without physical pain. They are all sharingan techniques, same eyes similar effects.


Because of different mechanics ?
That is like saying all katon jutsu are the same because they burn your skin on contact.



> Activation multiple times qualifies as "more". Keeping it on for extended periods qualifies as "more". It's what more means.


So it doesn't mean much unless we can quantify the "more" and "activation."
Susano'O's usage varies, as well as the toll it takes on the user.



> Any version of Susanoo would be *more* taxing on Itachi as he is physically inferior to Sasuke. That is the point.


He is not though. We've seen him use Susano'O better than Sasuke, despite being physically weakened.

If you are talking about chakra capacity, then it is hard to know because we don't know how Itachi's chakra level would be like if he was healthy.



> Sure, but you don't get to toss out the data just because you don't like the variables.


No no no, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, you can only get consistent data as long as the variables are the same or at least very similar. There is nothing to like or not like here.



> Uh, no. You made a claim and offered evidence for that claim. Your evidence has been disproven. One is clearly worse than the other. You don't get to say X is worse when the evidence for X indicates better. I'm sorry this doesn't wash.


My evidence isn't disproven unless you simply ignored the distance between Itachi and Sasuke and the distance between Kakashi & Sasuke.
Usually objects tend to look more blurry as they stand further away from you.
I only offered an alternative, in case you didn't want to get a technical debate about that too. But sure, be my guest.



> Does Sasuke have more chakra than Itachi or not?
> 
> It doesn't matter.


Sick Itachi ? Yeah, especially going by the databook.



> Is maintaining Susanoo simply a physical trait or also a skill trait?


It is both I'd say. So Itachi was better than Sasuke in both accounts.



> Yes it's possible, but you run into the same issue of arbitrarily downplaying smaller activation with the idea that they are somehow much less.
> 
> We don't know how much less they are, but we do know more MS uses is worse for the eyes.



Just because we don't have a specific value doesn't mean we can't make an estimation based on already established variables such as Higher Stages being harder to use, the chakra constructs size, the toll on the body etc.



> If Itachi is basically always physically distressed how did you determine that his physically distressness was never caused by using Susanoo?
> 
> You have no way to determine what caused his physical distress, as such it is not possible to make a positive claim to the nature of the distress and you certainly cannot claim Susanoo causes none YOU JUST SPENT HALF A PAGE ARGUING HOW MUCH DISTRESS SUSANOO CAUSES.
> 
> Come on man.


Are you trying to take things out of context on purpose or are you really confused I don't get it.

I always claimed that the distress of using Susano'O is dependent on variables such as the duration it is used for and the stage that is being used.

So in that particular page, he had just activated Susano'O for the second time(the initial unknown stage was busted) and he was trying to recover from Kirin and he was already coughing blood after the second Amaterasu.

I'm basically pointing out that you arrived to the conclusion that Itachi was "always" distressed from using Susano'O and was spitting blood because of it, simply by ignoring lots of other variables, the ones I mentioned above.



> Missing the point.
> 
> If Susanoo use cause blindness then obviously Living Itachi could simply never afford to use it in the manner Edo Itachi did.


So he'd just accept defeat and die by the hands of his opponents ? What kind of a logic is that ?
Itachi'd use MS whenever it would be necessary.
You can argue that he wouldn't kill the crow with Amaterasu, but that was off combat anyways.



> The same way you concluded that Part 2 Itachi MS use was superior to part 1.
> 
> You can either run with that logic or not. I don't really care which just tell me which.



I'll try to explain myself here because seeing your response its seems though I failed to do so up until this point.

Let's just say Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu, by the virtue of being aimshoot techniques and techniques being on a similar level, are Apples. Red an Green, with comparable sizes.

Susano'O is the citrus fruit family, but have different types and sizes.
Susano'O V1 = Lemon
Susano'O V2 = Mandarin Orange
Susano'O V3 = Orange
SusanoO V4 = Grapefruit


So going by your logic, you are saying that 4 Lemons +3(duration)  > 2 Orange +10(duration) + 1 Grapefruit + 20(duration)

The only reason being they are more in number. Obviously there are lots of wrongs with that equation.

It is about time we moved on from this.



> Again, if your premise is true, it would have always been relevant. The point here is the lack of use in the manner that Edo Itachi showed us indicates that your premise is unlikely.



My premise has nothing to do with the narrative of the story.
Ok, lets just entertain your absence of evidence argument.

Let's say Kishimoto thought it would be a good idea to introduce Susano'O before he introduced Amaterasu and Itachi used Susano'O to break free from Jiraiya's jutsu.
It would still be done off panel, so how would you even know what Itachi used there ? Itachi could say "I had to use Susano'O" or something of course, but then you would have no idea what kind of a jutsu it was.
Jiraiya wouldn't be able to talk about it either, because he wouldn't see the black flames.

And even if thats what happened, I swear to god we would be arguing to this day which stage of Susano'O Itachi used to break free. Jiraiya fans would say that he used Stage 4 and Totsuka, and Itachi fans would argue that he used V1 or someshit.
And we still would be having this argument btw.



> Yes, but Susanoo's drawbacks are consistent with the other MS techs. We are discussing the drawbacks, not the usage.


Drawbacks are in correlation with the usage.
Sasuke said it, we are shown it. The longer you use Susano'O, the more taxing it is. The higher stages you use, the more taxing it is.



> I know it was shown, I am referring to the instances where a MS tech was used. Itachi's eyes were avoided both with Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. (Itachi's eyes in Tsukuyomi is an illusion not indicative of the real world



Usually Itachi's eyes inside the genjutsu are the same as his eyes outside. Why would he revert his eyes back to the 3 tomoe sharingan inside the genjutsu or right after we take a close look in his face ?
It is pretty uncharacteristic of any MS user.
At least it has never been the case after Kishimoto fully revealed his MS. So it is pretty clear that the concept of MS wasn't fleshed out yet, or it was being hold back for a reason.



> I would say Edo regen allowed Itachi to avoid or delay many of the MS drawbacks. (no blindness or pain from use) Maybe Edo Itachi could have gone blind eventually but clearly something was allowing him to perform without obvious drawbacks.


Which in itself is pretty arbitrary. Because we know that Itachi was having severe drawbacks because of his sick body, and Sasuke showed lesser drawbacks because he was spamming it without even fully mastering it(using Susano'O and Amaterasu together bothered Obito, which is something edo Itachi never done for example, there goes the "spamming" argument).



> Edo regen far exceeds any medical jutsu known.


Fair enough.



> Deathbed -
> Genjutsu - Friendship Souls
> Tsukuyomi - Friendship Souls
> Katon - Link removed
> ...



We just compared then in the pervious post.
Katons negated each other. Genjutsu negated each other.
Aborted Amaterasu never came into the picture, so it is irrelevant.
2 Amaterasu negate each other.
Itachi used V2, V3 and V3 against Nagato for brief periods of time, and Death bed Itachi used(unknown version against Kirin), then he full activated V4. Defeated Yamata, and then went to V3 and zombie walked Sasuke's ass for an entire chapter and died.  Let's just assume it is the same for the sake of the discussion, but obviously Deathbed Itachi used it for longer.

Itachi also used Tsukiyomi against Sasuke.
So in the end he used more jutsu than his ET variant and died on his feet, without going out of chakra.


> Again, if you feel living Itachi could replicate Edo's performance with the risk of possible blindness or death, then I agree it's *possible*. However if you think he can do with virtually no issues, there is no chance.


I wouldn't say with virtually no issues, but obviously the issues wouldn't be as severe as they were against Sasuke, that is a given.


> How do you identify V4?


V4 is the tengu mask + shroud  + Totsuka:
Link removed
Link removed

V3 is this : Link removed

You can see the diffence here as it is dissipating :
Link removed


> It's *only* comparable when you eliminate all the other Susanoo activation's. Once you add those in it clear edo Itachi used more stuff.


Are we back to square 1 again ?

I'll ask the same question then.
How is activating the ribcage is for a few seconds is the same as using V4 for 30 seconds or more ?



> Then I suppose we are at an agree to disagree impasse. If jutsu count doesn't matter I'm not sure what metric you would accept to show Edo's performance as superior.


Jutsu count matters as long as you can directly compare them.

If Susano'O is the jutsu in question, like I've been saying for several pages, other variables are involved and we should take them into consideration before we equate 1 ribcage activation to 1 Tsukiyomi or equate using V4 for 30 seconds to 1 Amaterasu, or any nonsensical thing of that nature.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 25, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi died because of his illness before  the fight was over. He technically never went out of chakra in that fight.
> 
> By your own admission you said that his illness would accelerate his death. That means if he wasn't dying already, then he could have sustained Susano'O for longer, which directly translates to higher chakra capacity.



Two problems here -

Did he die of chakra exhaustion?

Impossible to know how much juice he had left.

Obviously healthy or not he was near his limits.



> In most cases it is.



Says who?

What cases are you talking about?



> But if you think Itachi would be the outlier, then be my guest and provide your argument.



Listen, you can't just make random arbitrary claims and say I gotta prove you wrong.

We have a sick dude in Kimi with no obviously loss in chakra capacity. We have an old dude in Oonoki with no obvious loss in chakra capacity. It's safe to say this idea of sick = less chakra isn't some hard and fast rule in Naruto.

Snipping the stuff that basically repeats this point.



> Jutsu usage for his younger self was never established nor it was relevant. Also we absolutely have no idea how "weak" his body was, relative to Hiruzen. His back problem, being the only weakness, is a very specific issue that even the young people can have. So that doesn't necessarily mean he had a weak body.



Oonoki didn't appear to be weak, that is the point.



> In most cases it does. Old people and terminally ill people have weaker bodies, that is the norm.



Yes the norm in the real world.



> If feels like you are trying to prove the opposite by relying on outliers(old man with strong body, terminally ill dude with strong body).



No, I'm proving it's not a rule.



> Nah, it would have ended the moment you realized dying Itachi displayed more or less the same chakra capacity the edo variant has displayed in his fight against Kabuto or Nagato.



This is only a discussion because you have decided that chakra capacity only matters per fight not per day but even then Edo Itachi used more jutsus.



> But you cited the jutsu Edo Itachi used before and after his fights.
> That is the only reason I mentioned the karasubunshins. Just keeping it honest.



Technically my benchmark is an entire day for stamina comparison. You broke it into fights, I assumed that all jutsus related to the immediate encounter would be relevant.



> Especially considering he was already dying off an illness.
> I think that is the real difference maker.



Itachi pushed himself as far as he could go and died marginally outperforming his part 1 self. (maybe underperforming considering part 1 use of a shadow clone)



> Or he was out out. I mean really out.



Oh for Itachi's sake can you stop moving the goal posts?

You made a claim that Itachi *had* to turn off his sharingan because he was out of chakra. This claim is *DISPOROVEN* by the manga itself.

Now you want to introduce another secret qualifier of "really out"? It was Itachi HIMSELF that said Sasuke was out of chakra. Come on lol

Accept it move along.




> I absolutely have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not comparing apples to oranges like you are.
> I'm comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
> When I say Jutsu count, I'm talking about his MS jutsus and I'm simply saying that the 3 MS shots he used in part 1(2 Tsukiyomi and 1 Amaterasu) would be more or less equal to his 3 MS shots in part 2(1 Tsukiyomi and 2 Amaterasu).



Ok fine, more or less equal.

Part 1 Itachi at 50% chakra gets 3 MS shots.



> And if you want to get technical about the specifics of Tsukiyomi, then those 2 Amaterasu Itachi used in part 2 were much bigger than the one he used agains the toad stomach, given the spread of the flames on the wall.



I have no idea how you determine an off panel amaterasu is smaller than what he did in part 2.



> Ok then we'll have to assume that those 2 crow bunshins Itachi used before the fight against Sasuke also split his chakra. What does that leave part 2 Itachi with ?



They use chakra, they don't split it.





> At best you can argue that Itachi was able to cast 1 MS after splitting his chakra in half in part 1, which means he has enough chakra left for 1 MS shot at 50%. And then he during the time he left Konoha and faced Jiraiya, he regenerated X amount and used another 2.



How much time between leaving Konoha and finding Naruto? How do you determine how much time is needed to regen chakra?



> Probably same logic would apply to part 2 Itachi. After the crowbunshins were gone, it was probbaly like an hour(maybe more it is hard to keep track of time) before Sasuke came and met him and he regenerated Y amount chakra.



Ok sure, how much chakra is that?



> Or, we can assume that when the clone is dispersed, whatever chakra capacity left untouched on the clone(in which case the exploding bunshin didn't use any jutsu other than exploding himself) goes back to the user.



Ok sure, how much chakra did the clone use to explode?



> So unless they used those Jutsus with their clones around, then it means absolutely nothing.



Or it does mean something?



> Because from Zetsu's point of view, Itachi basically died  while walking towards Sasuke in a fight he seemed to be victorious. Itachi never technically went out of chakra in that fight. Why would Zetsu even mention chakra capacity specifically ?



Zetsu was the exposition on the *UNKNOWN* variables on this fight. If diminished chakra was one of them there is no reason nothing would have been said. Itachi getting hit with Sasuke shuriken is not contextually relevant *until Zetsu said so*. Plus we had a perefct opportunity to comment on chakra with the katon head to head that Sasuke won.

He let us in on everything else hindering Itachi, but we should believe diminished chakra was something he wouldn't mention?



> So using Susano'O around 1 minute(I'd say slightly more but 1 if you want to lowball it), on top of lots of physical exertion(don't forget stamina also uses body energy like chakra) doesn't show superior chakra capacity ?



Not really.

Look, if you want to stack the deck to say it does there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. However I am attempting to bypass your Itachi bias and appeal to your logical nature, no offense intended if you feel you do not have an Itachi bias.

How much time passed between Konoha and the hotel? 15 minutes? Half an hour? We can see Konoha from the hotel, so it isn't that far away. How fast do you think chakra regenerates without help?

I'm of the assumption that there was simply not enough time to regen any appreciable amount of chakra between Konoha and the hotel. This would mean that Itachi at 50% chakra (50% because we cannot know how much chakra the exploding clone uses to explode. I would presume all of it, but who knows) in part 1 could use 6 MS shots, definitely 5. The same or better as his deathbed self.

You are under the impression that a break in action changes something. You must understand that logically it makes no sense unless a *significant* amount of time has passed in that break. Looking at the break in both part 1 and Part 2 Edo Itachi I cannot see any significance.

Anyway I am going to cut any of the items that are going in circles.



> Izanami and Izanagi are completely different jutsu. Why do we assume they operate in similar mechanics to other MS jutsu ?
> Again, apples and oranges, you have no argument there.



They are all sharingan jutsus, all with the same drawbacks - loss of sight.

They are clearly related, but it doesn't matter.



> My argument is the damage to the eye sight should be in correleation with the usage of the jutsu. We should agree on this correct ?
> 
> Then the usage of Susano'O is defined by how long it is used for and how much power is invested in it(stages). The more you use it, the more toll on the body, also more damage to the eyes.
> How is the toll on the body and damage to the eyes aren't correlated in that case ?
> ...



Ok sure. In your estimation how much damage does using a Susanoo arm cause in relation to V4 on the same time frame?



> Because of different mechanics ?
> That is like saying all katon jutsu are the same because they burn your skin on contact.



Your premise is blindness correlates to pain, yet we know you can go blind with zero pain. You say one is MS one is not, but that doesn't seem to matter. Itachi has his MS on when using Izanami - Gokage >>> Obito

On another note, you don't need your MS to use Susanoo, yet it still causes pain. Pain and loss of eyesight are not mutually inclusive as per the manga.




> He is not though. We've seen him use Susano'O better than Sasuke, despite being physically weakened.
> 
> If you are talking about chakra capacity, then it is hard to know because we don't know how Itachi's chakra level would be like if he was healthy.



Don't know what to say. If you think Sasuke if physically inferior to Itachi I will leave it at that.



> No no no, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, you can only get consistent data as long as the variables are the same or at least very similar. There is nothing to like or not like here.



But you are tossing out the data you don't like.



> My evidence isn't disproven unless you simply ignored the distance between Itachi and Sasuke and the distance between Kakashi & Sasuke.



Your premise is that Itachi's eyesight was just as bad as Sasuke's and then offered an image showing Sasuke's vision to be *worse*.

Your premise is not proven by the evidence you provided, in fact showing the opposite of your claim. You can't say you proved something by providing evidence showing the opposite of what you claimed it would show. At best your premise remains unproven.

Seriously, are you really trying to argue this?



> It is both I'd say. So Itachi was better than Sasuke in both accounts.



Ok, so if one doesn't have the skill, then obviously the physical ability will also be hindered.



> Just because we don't have a specific value doesn't mean we can't make an estimation based on already established variables such as Higher Stages being harder to use, the chakra constructs size, the toll on the body etc.



Sure, give me your numbers then.



> Are you trying to take things out of context on purpose or are you really confused I don't get it.
> 
> I always claimed that the distress of using Susano'O is dependent on variables such as the duration it is used for and the stage that is being used.
> 
> ...



Your premise was *We've seen deathbed Itachi dismantle Yamata no Orochi with the strongest incarnation of Susano'O while taking his time, without showing any distress up until a certain point.*

The claim is he wasn't distressed until after Oro was dealt with, yet we see him distressed *prior*. You have arbitrarily determined that his previous distress is a result of something unrelated to using Susanoo.

How did you determine that?



> So he'd just accept defeat and die by the hands of his opponents ? What kind of a logic is that ?
> Itachi'd use MS whenever it would be necessary.
> You can argue that he wouldn't kill the crow with Amaterasu, but that was off combat anyways.



No I am saying that because of the drawbacks related to MS use, Living Itachi could never afford to use 17 MS jutsus in a single day due to pain and blindness.



> I'll try to explain myself here because seeing your response its seems though I failed to do so up until this point.
> 
> Let's just say Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu, by the virtue of being aimshoot techniques and techniques being on a similar level, are Apples. Red an Green, with comparable sizes.
> 
> ...



My logic has always been that activating your MS techs relentlessly comes with a cost of pain and or blindness. Therefore more uses = worse off. (Intensity of use is also included)



> My premise has nothing to do with the narrative of the story.
> 
> Ok, lets just entertain your absence of evidence argument.
> 
> ...



Look, do we use real world arguments or not? Just let me know. I am arguing from what is narratively consistent.

The obvious narrative answer is that these type of spammy activation's are not productive, hence not really an option for an Itachi who doesn't want to go blind and or/doesn't expect to die anytime soon.



> Usually Itachi's eyes inside the genjutsu are the same as his eyes outside. Why would he revert his eyes back to the 3 tomoe sharingan inside the genjutsu or right after we take a close look in his face ?
> It is pretty uncharacteristic of any MS user.
> At least it has never been the case after Kishimoto fully revealed his MS. So it is pretty clear that the concept of MS wasn't fleshed out yet, or it was being hold back for a reason.



Look man, it's an *illusion*. Itachi could give himself googly eyes there if he wanted. 

The facts are that MS is required to use Tsukuyomi. The manga cut away from Itachi's eyes while he was hitting Kakashi from tsukuyomi. Occam's razor would dictate that he actually had MS on we just didn't get to see it, not that he used it with normal MS.



> Which in itself is pretty arbitrary.



It's arbitrary to think that an immortal body with infinite chakra refills and the highest level of regeneration ever seen would assist with coping with the drawbacks of MS use?

How?



> Because we know that Itachi was having severe drawbacks because of his sick body, and Sasuke showed lesser drawbacks because he was spamming it without even fully mastering it



Sasuke went blind faster than Itachi and was in ridiculous pain. His drawbacks were lesser but still severe.



> (using Susano'O and Amaterasu together bothered Obito, which is something edo Itachi never done for example, there goes the "spamming" argument).



Maybe the ability to use both simultaneously is an aspect of skill? In which case no matter how vital Itachi's Edo body was he could never replicate this feat. 



> We just compared then in the pervious post.
> Katons negated each other. Genjutsu negated each other.
> Aborted Amaterasu never came into the picture, so it is irrelevant.
> 2 Amaterasu negate each other.
> ...



Let's try this again. Tsukuyomi on Sasuke was always included in my list. I have amended the Susanoo levels.

Living Itachi vs Sasuke - 

Genjutsu - Gokage >>> Obito
*Tsukuyomi - Gokage >>> Obito
Katon - Gokage >>> Obito
Big Katon & *Amaterasu - Gokage >>> Obito
*2nd Amaterasu - Gokage >>> Obito
*Susanoo v4 x 2 - Gokage >>> Obito

5 MS techs maybe 5.5 with the longer activation Susanoo.


Edo Itachi vs Nagato - 

Katon - Gokage >>> Obito
Katon shurikens - Gokage >>> Obito
Genjutsu - Gokage >>> Obito
Amaterasu aborted - Gokage >>> Obito
*Amaterasu - Link removed
*Susanoo v2 - Link removed
*Susanoo v3 - Link removed
*Magatama - Link removed
*Susanoo V4 - Link removed
*Amaterasu - Link removed

6 MS techs, 7 if you consider aborted Amaterasu, all consecutively and his Susanoo was on for along time.

At best deathbed Itachi is close, but still falls short one jutsu. Yes he kept Susanoo on longer, but also had severe drawbacks that Edo never displayed. Yes he was sick, but even in part 1 displayed drawbacks from MS use.

Edo Itachi Kabuto - 

Susanoo arm - Link removed
Crow summon - Link removed
Susanoo arm - Link removed
*Susanoo v3? (remained on for most of the chapter) - Link removed
Susanoo arm - Link removed
*Susanoo v3 - Link removed
Crow bunshin - Link removed
*Amaterasu - Link removed
*Susanoo v3 - Link removed
*Tsukuyomi - Link removed
Susanoo arm - Link removed
*Izanami activation - Link removed
Susanoo arm - Link removed

6 MS level activation's (if you consider Izanagi on the level of an MS) plus 5 separate arm activation's. This has to be considered superior to deathbed Itachi IMO. The 5 arm activation's are just too numerous to ignore. Even if you cancel out 3 of them for the 3 regular jutsus from Living Itachi we still have 2 Susanoo arms and 1 crow summon above and beyond what living Itachi accomplished.

Honestly believe what you want. I'm just trying illustrate the difference as impartially as I can.



> V4 is the tengu mask + shroud  + Totsuka:
> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> ...



Fair enough.



> Are we back to square 1 again ?
> 
> I'll ask the same question then.
> How is activating the ribcage is for a few seconds is the same as using V4 for 30 seconds or more ?



Never said it was, however 5 separate activation's becomes significant.



> Jutsu count matters as long as you can directly compare them.
> 
> If Susano'O is the jutsu in question, like I've been saying for several pages, other variables are involved and we should take them into consideration before we equate 1 ribcage activation to 1 Tsukiyomi or equate using V4 for 30 seconds to 1 Amaterasu, or any nonsensical thing of that nature.



Part 1 Itachi seemed to have a 5 MS limit which would be consistent with what we saw from deathbed Itachi.

I know you don't agree, but it really seems like the usage of the 3 main jutsus is similar chakra drain.


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## Kai (Mar 25, 2019)

Itachi is mentioned to have been able to kill [Hebi] Sasuke if he wanted, despite being just moments from deaths door. This narrative leads me to believe Itachi’s control over the fight was firm enough there was no chance of dying to illness before the fight was over. This also implies even had Sasuke tried to take advantage of Itachi’s illness it would not succeed had Itachi wanted him dead.

Expect Itachi to be able to match Sasuke in MS endurance thanks to higher pain threshold; He also holds superior offensive/defensive weapons thanks to Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror, the latter which should be even more durable than Susanoo.

TL;DR Itachi high-extreme diffs. Sasuke needs EMS to surpass Itachi IMO.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Mar 25, 2019)

If Sasuke has V4 Susanoo, and has full eye sight and health, he beats Itachi 7/10 times high/ extreme diff.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 26, 2019)

Its 2019. How the HELL is Itachi still being fanwanked beyond end to this day? 

Itachi HIMSELF said that Sasuke would surpass him if he had the Mangekyo Sharingan. Sasuke is immune to Itachi's best technique (Tsukuyomi), his Amateraus and Kagutsuchi shit on Itachi's, and his Susano'o, despite lacking the featless tools that Itachi has, has better feats of usage. Not only that, he can spam his MS, Itachi cannot. Sasuke also fought opponents who would outright beat Itachi due to being bad matchups for him (such as A and Danzo-who he defeated and Itachi even said his win over Danzo was impressive).

Seriously, Itachitardism should be dead in 2019. The worst part of the fandom should be in a smouldering pile!


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## Sapherosth (Mar 26, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Itachi pushed himself as far as he could go and died marginally outperforming his part 1 self. (maybe underperforming considering part 1 use of a shadow clone)



In the Sasuke fight he also used a clone. Oh wait, you missed that out. Earlier, Itachi also sent out a clone to use genjutsu on Naruto and pass on the crow. Who knows how much chakra that costed prior to the battle.

That's basically 2 clones that you've missed out.




> Zetsu was the exposition on the *UNKNOWN* variables on this fight. If diminished chakra was one of them there is no reason nothing would have been said. Itachi getting hit with Sasuke shuriken is not contextually relevant *until Zetsu said so*. *Plus we had a perefct opportunity to comment on chakra with the katon head to head that Sasuke won.*




Sasuke didn't win because he had more chakra. He won because his katon was boosted by nature energy AKA curse seal.
Another point that's wrong for you.




> He let us in on everything else hindering Itachi, but we should believe diminished chakra was something he wouldn't mention?



Sustained severe damage before the fight is pretty much self explanatory. Ever seen someone low on chakra moving normally? 

Kimi may have had his chakra hindered but no one was there to comment on it. You could even argue that Kabuto and Orochimaru were able to preserve Kimi much better than Itachi could preserve himself. 

After all, Oro has experiments and Kabuto is a medic Ninja. Itachi is neither so it makes sense that his condition wouldn't be as good as Kimimaru even on his deathbed. 



> Ok sure. In your estimation how much damage does using a Susanoo arm cause in relation to V4 on the same time frame?



Pretty sure using a Susano arm is like a drop of water in comparison to V4 Susano.

Just use its size as a correlation. Afterall Susano is a chakra construct.

Let's assume the size of V4 Susano is 10x that of Susano arm, you can safely assume that it costs 10x the amount of chakra.



> No I am saying that because of the drawbacks related to MS use, Living Itachi could never afford to use 17 MS jutsus in a single day due to pain and blindness.



If you actually count single uses of Susano arm as "1 MS jutsu" then Itachi can certainly use it.

According to you, Susano arms = 1 MS jutsu, right?





> Maybe the ability to use both simultaneously is an aspect of skill? In which case no matter how vital Itachi's Edo body was he could never replicate this feat.



Was this in relation to Sasuke using Amateratsu while using Susano?

If it was, then it was an act of stupidity, as pointed out by Obito. Not an aspect of skill. Lmfao.

If it was skill Obito would have pointed it out as such, but instead he said it's not a wise move.




> Let's try this again. Tsukuyomi on Sasuke was always included in my list. I have amended the Susanoo levels.
> 
> Living Itachi vs Sasuke -
> 
> ...



V4 Susano is considered as 1 MS tech?

Are you actually serious?

What about the crow clones that Itachi used in the fight or the crow clone Itachi sent to Naruto and used genjutsu earlier? Did you miss it intentionally or do you genuinely don't know. What about the Amateratsu seal that Itach used on Sasuke?

Man, you really don't know what you're talking about.




> Edo Itachi vs Nagato -
> 
> Katon - Link removed
> Katon shurikens - Link removed
> ...




Wowwww,

1 second use of V4 Susano is = to extended use of V4.
Nice logic you have there.

The Susano that Itachi used for a "long time" was actually a V2/V3 version of Susano. Nowhere NEAR V4.



> At best deathbed Itachi is close, but still falls short one jutsu. Yes he kept Susanoo on longer, but also had severe drawbacks that Edo never displayed. Yes he was sick, but even in part 1 displayed drawbacks from MS use.



Bullshit.

Did you even go to school for maths?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 26, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> In the Sasuke fight he also used a clone. Oh wait, you missed that out. Earlier, Itachi also sent out a clone to use genjutsu on Naruto and pass on the crow. Who knows how much chakra that costed prior to the battle.
> 
> That's basically 2 clones that you've missed out.



I was under the impression the first clone was a genjutsu. The Crow bunshin to give Naruto Shishu's eye occurred prior to the Uchiha fight, as such it wasn't considered.

Technically I prefer using the *day* as a metric to measure capability. You obviously understand the implications of using the day.



> Sasuke didn't win because he had more chakra. He won because his katon was boosted by nature energy AKA curse seal.
> Another point that's wrong for you.



I wasn't offering a reason on why Sasuke won. I was pointing out there was an opportunity to express Itachi had diminished chakra if that were the case via the katon head to head.



> Sustained severe damage before the fight is pretty much self explanatory. Ever seen someone low on chakra moving normally?
> 
> Kimi may have had his chakra hindered but no one was there to comment on it. You could even argue that Kabuto and Orochimaru were able to preserve Kimi much better than Itachi could preserve himself.
> 
> After all, Oro has experiments and Kabuto is a medic Ninja. Itachi is neither so it makes sense that his condition wouldn't be as good as Kimimaru even on his deathbed.



The point is to show that one can be sick with no obvious change to chakra capacity. There is no rule when it comes to this.




> Pretty sure using a Susano arm is like a drop of water in comparison to V4 Susano.
> 
> Just use its size as a correlation. Afterall Susano is a chakra construct.
> 
> Let's assume the size of V4 Susano is 10x that of Susano arm, you can safely assume that it costs 10x the amount of chakra.



Well thank you for your input.




> If you actually count single uses of Susano arm as "1 MS jutsu" then Itachi can certainly use it.
> 
> According to you, Susano arms = 1 MS jutsu, right?



Do you need MS to use Susanoo any version? Yes. Therefore it is an MS technique.

And My argument isn't that Living Itachi is *incapable* of using, but that he could not afford to use it in this manner.




> Was this in relation to Sasuke using Amateratsu while using Susano?
> 
> If it was, then it was an act of stupidity, as pointed out by Obito. Not an aspect of skill. Lmfao.
> 
> If it was skill Obito would have pointed it out as such, but instead he said it's not a wise move.



Missing the point.

If a certain level of skill is required to perform two MS jutsus simultaneously then how good or bad the body is won't be relevant until you meet the skill requirement..



> V4 Susano is considered as 1 MS tech?
> 
> Are you actually serious?



Sorry I didn't get the Itachi fanboy manual detailing what qualifies as what. I was under the impression that MS techs qualify as MS techs.



> What about the crow clones that Itachi used in the fight or the crow clone Itachi sent to Naruto and used genjutsu earlier? Did you miss it intentionally or do you genuinely don't know. What about the Amateratsu seal that Itach used on Sasuke?
> 
> Man, you really don't know what you're talking about.



Covered above.

But I have no issue quantifying the potential usage as a days worth.

Edo Itachi one day -

Katon - Link removed
Katon shurikens - Link removed
Genjutsu - Link removed
Amaterasu aborted - Link removed
*Amaterasu - Link removed
*Susanoo v2 - Link removed
*Susanoo v3 - Link removed
*Magatama - Link removed
*Susanoo V4 - Link removed
*Amaterasu - Link removed

Susanoo arm - Link removed
Crow summon - Link removed
Susanoo arm - Link removed
*Susanoo v3? (remained on for most of the chapter) - Link removed
Susanoo arm - Link removed
*Susanoo v3 - Link removed
Crow bunshin - Link removed
*Amaterasu - Link removed
*Susanoo v3 - Link removed
*Tsukuyomi - Link removed
Susanoo arm - Link removed
*Izanami activation - Link removed
Susanoo arm - Link removed

Seems like quite a difference.




> Bullshit.
> 
> Did you even go to school for maths?



Yes I did go to school for "maths" lol

Count Edo's entire jutsu use, count Living. How's your math doing?

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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 26, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Two problems here -
> 
> Did he die of chakra exhaustion?
> 
> ...


If it is impossible to know how much juice he left, it is also impossible to say that he was at his limit.
Matter of the fact is Itachi died by a combination of many things, his illness playing the primary role.
Eitherway, you said his illness accelerated his death timer, so if it didn't, it is natural he would be able to maintain Susano'O longer.



> Says who?
> 
> What cases are you talking about?


Common sense.


> Listen, you can't just make random arbitrary claims and say I gotta prove you wrong.


My claims are neither random nor arbitrary.
I made the claim that Itachi's body was weakened due to his illness and claimed that his stamina and chakra capabilities would be diminshed because of that.
I supported my case with common sense and that chakra diagram from the manga.



> We have a sick dude in Kimi with no obviously loss in chakra capacity



No one actually compared Kimi to his prime self, nor we've seen him in a situation where he wasn't ill.
He didn't keel over and cough during mid fight, and he has a bloodline limit that makes his body alot stronger than average folk. 
So there is actually no way to know if he was dimished or not, or if he was, to what extend, but his situation is different from Itachi.



> . We have an old dude in Oonoki with no obvious loss in chakra capacity. It's safe to say this idea of sick = less chakra isn't some hard and fast rule in Naruto.
> 
> Snipping the stuff that basically repeats this point.
> 
> ...


Outliers don't make the rule. 


> Yes the norm in the real world.


What does that even mean ? 
Naruto characters are also flesh and blood and get sick and die. 
Certain fundementals obviously apply to them, that is why common sense transfers, unless stated or shown otherwise.
Itachi is a regular human in Narutoverse standarts, physically speaking. He doesn't have body enhancements, a particular body altering bloodline, or regenerative powers. If he gets stabbed in a lethal area, he dies like anyone else from our world. 



> No, I'm proving it's not a rule.


You can't prove that with outlier examples.


> This is only a discussion because you have decided that chakra capacity only matters per fight not per day but even then Edo Itachi used more jutsus.


This is a discussion because I  stated that living Itachi could have replicated what he has done in Nagato and Kabuto battles and you objected.



> Technically my benchmark is an entire day for stamina comparison. You broke it into fights, I assumed that all jutsus related to the immediate encounter would be relevant.


We aren't debating your benchmark. We are debating whether Itachi benefited from the virtue of the so called "infitite" stamina in his battles against Kabuto and Nagato, which I intially argued against.
You brought up the whole "Edo Itachi used this much in a day" argument eventhough I repeatedly said I was talking about those battles by themselves.



> Itachi pushed himself as far as he could go and died marginally outperforming his part 1 self. (maybe underperforming considering part 1 use of a shadow clone)


I will adress the clone nonesense later in this post.

You think using that aditional V2-V4 Susano'O for around a minute on top of physically exerting himself further, while literally dying of a terminal disease is "marginally outpeforming ?"

You are the same guy who thinks activating ribcage or the arm briefly is significantly taxing, and you think Activating Susano'O twice and using it for over a minute(most of it V4) is only "*a marginal difference* ?"
Well if you think that is a marginal difference, then why do you think briefly activating a much lower stage of Susano'O is significant ?

Maybe you want to reconsider your opinion here.



> Oh for Itachi's sake can you stop moving the goal posts?
> 
> You made a claim that Itachi *had* to turn off his sharingan because he was out of chakra. This claim is *DISPOROVEN* by the manga itself.
> 
> ...



If Sasuke was literally out of chakra he would die, period. So when Itachi said "you are out" he clearly meant Sasuke didn't have chakra left to squeeze out another jutsu.
Which also shows that sharingan doesn't drain much at all. So Itachi turning it off(intentionally or not) just shows that he literally was at the brink of exhaustion. 
Yes, let's move on from this.



> Ok fine, more or less equal.
> 
> Part 1 Itachi at 50% chakra gets 3 MS shots.


You gotta stop that ridiculous 50% chakra notion.
Itachi never used a MS jutsu when he had his clone out.


> I have no idea how you determine an off panel amaterasu is smaller than what he did in part 2.


I based it off on the area he used it on, compared to the size of the one that fully engulfed Sasuke's katon. 
But it doesn't matter that much. 



> They use chakra, they don't split it.


Where does it say that ?
Karasubunshin is the same thing as Kagebunshin, it simply uses crows as a medium thus creating it requires less chakra, but it has the same functionality : 



> A technique that produces a clone by projecting one's own chakra towards dozens of "crows". Because it uses crows as an medium*, it requires less chakra then the normal "Shadow Clone Technique," while still being able to perform techniques.*


It is simply a different variant. 



> How much time between leaving Konoha and finding Naruto? How do you determine how much time is needed to regen chakra?


How do you ? 


> Ok sure, how much chakra is that?


I don't, know since you mentioned it, I thought you would have thought about all the variables.


> Ok sure, how much chakra did the clone use to explode?


Who knows ? Do you think it takes 50% chakra to make the clone explode ? So you think exploding clone would take much more chakra than a MS technique ? 


> Or it does mean something?



You see, when you create a kagebunshin or karasubunshin(which takes less chakra to create), you are basically splitting your chakra in half.
Means you and the bunshin have access to 50% of your chakra each.
This is obviously what is left of it after creating the bunshin(as creating it would also require some of your chakra)

Once the clone is dispersed, you gain access to 100% chakra(minus whatever the clone used).
So unless you can prove that the exploding clone used significant amounts of chakra,  then we have to assume that Itachi regained access to his 100%(minus the explosionn technique) once it vanished.

So my friend, you gotta stop grasping at straws here.


> Zetsu was the exposition on the *UNKNOWN* variables on this fight. If diminished chakra was one of them there is no reason nothing would have been said. Itachi getting hit with Sasuke shuriken is not contextually relevant *until Zetsu said so*. Plus we had a perefct opportunity to comment on chakra with the katon head to head that Sasuke won.
> 
> He let us in on everything else hindering Itachi, but we should believe diminished chakra was something he wouldn't mention?


Itachi never ran out of chakra.
So how would Zetsu compare Sick Itachi's limits to his previous limits unless he knew those limits ?

Think of it like this, you are watching a film which  you don't know how long it is.
Then the film suddenly ends at 1.5 hour mark because of an error. How would you compare the length of that film to other films you've seen ?

We also know that Zetsu never seen Itachi go all out, because he hasn't seen Itachi's Susano'O before, so going by that Zetsu didn't know healthy Itachi's chakra limit either.

Your argument is moot.



> Not really.
> 
> Look, if you want to stack the deck to say it does there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. However I am attempting to bypass your Itachi bias and appeal to your logical nature, no offense intended if you feel you do not have an Itachi bias.
> 
> ...



I adressed the clone argument already, you are wrong about how it works.

Also there is no way to know how much time has passed. Naruto and Jiraiya encountered each other. Naruto went home to pack, and then they moved out. During that time, Kakashi got hospitalized, Sasuke stumbled upon their conversation and then went out to look for Naruto and then went to the wrong hotel, and then Itachi and Naruto met.
This is a moot point anyways, but it surely wasn't 15 minutes lmao.



> Ok sure. In your estimation how much damage does using a Susanoo arm cause in relation to V4 on the same time frame?


I'd say it would be proportional to chakra invested and the stress it puts on the eye.
Seeing how Sasuke was comfortably using Susano'O V3 and then upgraded it to V4 and his eyes immediately gave out, I'd say the difference would be significant nontheless



> Your premise is blindness correlates to pain, yet we know you can go blind with zero pain. You say one is MS one is not, but that doesn't seem to matter. Itachi has his MS on when using Izanami - Gokage >>> Obito


Care to show me a MS jutsu that doesn't inflict any kind of pain/stress on it's use ? 

I never said blindness correlates with pain. 
I said the *blindness caused by MS jutsu correlates with the stress they put the user.*
Don't try to take the things I said out of context.



> On another note, you don't need your MS to use Susanoo, yet it still causes pain. Pain and loss of eyesight are not mutually inclusive as per the manga.


And yet it makes you blind and puts stress on the eye  :: Gokage >>> Obito
Because theoritically it still qualifies as "using MS" as stupid as it is.

If you'd ask me, I honestly wouldn't even think Susano'O would cause blindness as it has nothing to do with the eyes, it is basically a glorified chakra shroud. But, manga says it does so whatever.



> Don't know what to say. If you think Sasuke if physically inferior to Itachi I will leave it at that.



Well, he clearly was going by what've seen from MS Sasuke.  We've also seen ET Itachi manifest Susano'O when he was under the same kind of distress as Sasuke was, and Sasuke wasn't able to : Gokage >>> Obito
And before you play the ET card, take a look at Itachi's face. He was clearly in pain and under the same distress as Sasuke.


> But you are tossing out the data you don't like.


Are you referring to something specific or general ? Care to provide an example ? 



> Your premise is that Itachi's eyesight was just as bad as Sasuke's and then offered an image showing Sasuke's vision to be *worse*.
> 
> Your premise is not proven by the evidence you provided, in fact showing the opposite of your claim. You can't say you proved something by providing evidence showing the opposite of what you claimed it would show. At best your premise remains unproven.
> 
> Seriously, are you really trying to argue this?



The examples are more or less the same. Sasuke's look worse because Kakashi is drawn smaller because he is further away so he is less detailed. 
You are nitpicking, honestly lets move on.



> Ok, so if one doesn't have the skill, then obviously the physical ability will also be hindered.


Where are you getting at with this ?



> Sure, give me your numbers then.


I've been giving you estimations like I said. You are just brushing them aside because they aren't 100% prove numbers ? You don't have those either.



> Your premise was *We've seen deathbed Itachi dismantle Yamata no Orochi with the strongest incarnation of Susano'O while taking his time, without showing any distress up until a certain point.*
> 
> The claim is he wasn't distressed until after Oro was dealt with, yet we see him distressed *prior*. You have arbitrarily determined that his previous distress is a result of something unrelated to using Susanoo.
> 
> How did you determine that?


We saw him distressed right after he was recovering from Kirin, as he was trying to get up.

You basically falsely used that particular frame to indicate the activation put him under severe distress where there were other variables involved such as recovering from Kirin and his illness making him cough blood.

How did I determine this ? Like I said, once he got up and fully manifested V4 he wasn't distressed, talking and acting normal. Later on he grabbed his chest and thats when Zetsu mentioned that using Susano'O came with risks, and that is what 've seen from Sasuke as well, along with his statement of Susano'O putting it's user under risk after long use.
In other words deductive reasoning.



> No I am saying that because of the drawbacks related to MS use, Living Itachi could never afford to use 17 MS jutsus in a single day due to pain and blindness.


For the last time each ribcage activation doesn't count as 1 MS use and I never said living Itachi could use MS through out the day as many times as the ET version did.


> My logic has always been that activating your MS techs relentlessly comes with a cost of pain and or blindness. Therefore more uses = worse off. (Intensity of use is also included)


Your logic is false then.
Because activating Susano'O doesn't alone define its use. It is just a small portion of it.



> Look, do we use real world arguments or not? Just let me know. I am arguing from what is narratively consistent.
> 
> The obvious narrative answer is that these type of spammy activation's are not productive, hence not really an option for an Itachi who doesn't want to go blind and or/doesn't expect to die anytime soon.



If you are arguing from what is narratively consistent, then how would you expect Kishimoto to make Itachi use Susano'O prior to Kirin without changing the entire story ? 



> Look man, it's an *illusion*. Itachi could give himself googly eyes there if he wanted.


Capability of doing something is different from actually doing it.
What would be the point of giving himself different eyes ?
What would Kishimoto gain by tricking the reader unless it led to a big revelation later on ?(which we know it never did)



> The facts are that MS is required to use Tsukuyomi. The manga cut away from Itachi's eyes while he was hitting Kakashi from tsukuyomi. Occam's razor would dictate that he actually had MS on we just didn't get to see it, not that he used it with normal MS.


I never said he didn't use MS. I said it wasn't fully designed. So my guess is Kishimoto didn't give MS it's unique pattern at the time, that is why he didn't show the exact moment he used Tsukiyomi. 
But the pattern itself bears no mystery, so there is no logical reason of hiding it other than the fact that it didn't exist. We saw Itachi activate MS against Sasuke before they even started fighting.
It is not like MS needs to be activated the moment the technique is used and deacitvated immediately after.



> It's arbitrary to think that an immortal body with infinite chakra refills and the highest level of regeneration ever seen would assist with coping with the drawbacks of MS use?
> 
> How?


Because the only comparison you can draw from is Itachi during his fight against Sasuke, where was fighting with a weak body. So we don't know how Itachi'd handle MS if he wasn't dying from an illness, but going by Zetsu's description, it would be significantly different. 


> Sasuke went blind faster than Itachi and was in ridiculous pain. His drawbacks were lesser but still severe.


He was also inferirior to Itachi by his self admission. He initially had problems maintaining ribcage and couldn't even hold V4. 
So he is not a good indicator on how Itachi'd perform as well.


> Maybe the ability to use both simultaneously is an aspect of skill?


If it was, then Obito would compliment him, instead of criticizing him for "overusing" it.


> In which case no matter how vital Itachi's Edo body was he could never replicate this feat.


Nah, despite Itachi's Edo body, he never fought OOC(aside from turning off Susano'O at the end to lure Kabuto in).


> Let's try this again. Tsukuyomi on Sasuke was always included in my list. I have amended the Susanoo levels.
> 
> Living Itachi vs Sasuke -
> 
> ...


Again, you are 100% off.

Why is the Amaterasu on crow is there ? It was done after the battle.
And why is Susano'O usage is split in 3 parts ? He activated V2 as he karatechopped Nagato, and then used Magatama as he upgraded to V3 and upgraded to V4 and sealed Nagato, all of which happened within 30 seconds or so, maybe less given the CT bit probably took a couple of seconds despite the convos. But he never used Susano'O on different instances.

Itachi vs Nagato - Itachi vs Sasuke : 
Katons negate each other, 2 Amaterasu negate each other. Itachi used Susano'O longer against Sasuke, and he used Tsukiyomi on top of it. The only additional thing Edo Itachi has is Magatama, and honestly I highly doubt it counts as 1 Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi. It is an extention of Susano'O that can be even used in V3. 

So Sick Itachi has Edo Itachi beat here. With the additional Tsukiyomi and additional V4 usage.



> Edo Itachi Kabuto -
> 
> Susanoo arm - Gokage >>> Obito
> Crow summon - Gokage >>> Obito
> ...


Crow summon is prior to the fight against Kabuto. Shouldn't counnt.

Like I said, we should calculate Susano'O usage based on the stage and the duration.
Itachi never used V4 against Kabuto, which is the most taxing variant. He used V2 very briefly to cut down Kimi's bones, and he used V3 twice again very briefly, once to grab the attacking snakes, and once to close in on Nagato to throw Magatama.
Other than that, he very briefly activated the V1 4 or 5 times. The size of those chakra constructs don't even add up to a single V3. So I honeslty don't see how that would be significant.
But even if we equate the Susano'O usage to Sick Itachi's, then sick Itachi has 1 additional Amaterasu on top. Let's say Izanami takes as much chakra as an Amaterasu(based on nothing) they end up being equal.
I've already adressed the bunshin argument. Bunshin's chakra returns to the original when it is dispersed. 


> Honestly believe what you want. I'm just trying illustrate the difference as impartially as I can.


Well you are not doing a very good job at it. Sick Itachi ends up matching his Edo performance no matter how you twist it.


> Never said it was, however 5 separate activation's becomes significant.


Like I said, I think activation, as much as its use, would depend on the investment in the said Susano'O.
V1 variants are very small and very simple constructs.
V2 is bigger and more detailed. V3 is basically muscle structure + clothes and facial detail.
V4 is tengu armor, looks completely different and bigger.

But the thing is, there is a huge leap from V1 to V2 in terms of size. V1 is basically a mini version, while the others are basically different layers of the same thing.

I'm not saying that activating V1 wouldn't cost anything, but I don't think it costs anything like activating V2 or onwards..



> Part 1 Itachi seemed to have a 5 MS limit which would be consistent with what we saw from deathbed Itachi.
> 
> 
> I know you don't agree, but it really seems like the usage of the 3 main jutsus is similar chakra drain.



Part 1 Itachi used his 3rd MS and turned off sharingan and told Kisame he had to rest.
No idea where those aditional 2 shots come from.


----------



## Shazam (Mar 26, 2019)

I find it hilarious that when people implicate "healthy itachi", they act like he is supposed to be V2 speeds, Kisame chakra levels, and Gai's taijutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 26, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I find it hilarious that when people implicate "healthy itachi", they act like he is supposed to be V2 speeds, Kisame chakra levels, and Gai's taijutsu.


Are you that person ? Because it is the first time I'm hearing this.


----------



## Shazam (Mar 26, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Are you that person ? Because it is the first time I'm hearing this.



I'm that person who isnt falling for the idea tha being healthy makes Itachi 2 tiers stronger.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 26, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I'm that person who isnt falling for the idea tha being healthy makes Itachi 2 tiers stronger.


Who is though ?
Honestly I never saw anyone claim those things you did. Maybe a few individuals ? 
Definitely not enough to make a generalization.


----------



## Shazam (Mar 26, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Who is though ?
> Honestly I never saw anyone claim those things you did. Maybe a few individuals ?
> Definitely not enough to make a generalization.



You havent seen those posts then I presume.

Well in any case, carry on


----------



## Tri (Mar 26, 2019)

Itachi has better physical stats, intelligence, Susanoo, and honestly probably has similar stamina when he's not affected by his illness so he should overwhelm Sasuke here and take the win.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 26, 2019)

Tri said:


> Itachi has better physical stats, intelligence, Susanoo, and honestly probably has similar stamina when he's not affected by his illness so he should overwhelm Sasuke here and take the win.


1. Which is why Sasuke could handle opponents far faster and stronger than Itachi better than Itachi could?
2. Doesn't mean Itachi can't be overwhelmed.
3. Itachi's Susano'o is featless.
4. No, Itachi's stamina is shit even without his illness. Sasuke can spam the MS, Itachi is limited to three, at most four uses PER DAY. Even when he was healthy in Part I, he could only use the MS three time's a day before he couldn't maintain his Sharingan and needed significant rest.

Seriously, the Itachiwank needs to die.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 26, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 3. Itachi's Susano'o is featless.
> .







Shazam said:


> You havent seen those posts then I presume.
> 
> Well in any case, carry on


No I haven't.

I honestly don't remember anyone claiming that Itachi had V2 A speed or Kisame level chakra besides you.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Mar 26, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If it is impossible to know how much juice he left, it is also impossible to say that he was at his limit.
> Matter of the fact is Itachi died by a combination of many things, his illness playing the primary role.
> Eitherway, you said his illness accelerated his death timer, so if it didn't, it is natural he would be able to maintain Susano'O longer.



It is possible he could have maintained Susanoo longer, but going by his history, not much longer. 5 MS shots is coming to his limit.



> Common sense.



In other words arbitrary.

What you consider "common sense" doesn't mean it actually is. In a manga dictated by it's own rules it's difficult to label what is considered sensical in relation to that.

Common sense dictates that Living Itachi could not replicate an immortal regenerating infinite chakra version of himself. 



> My claims are neither random nor arbitrary.
> I made the claim that Itachi's body was weakened due to his illness and claimed that his stamina and chakra capabilities would be diminshed because of that.
> I supported my case with common sense and that chakra diagram from the manga.



You have arbitrarily decided Itachi must have lower chakra capacity, despite his chakra use being consistent with his part 1 self and despite no direct evidence to support it. We in fact evidence of a sick ninja with no clear chakra reduction. 



> No one actually compared Kimi to his prime self, nor we've seen him in a situation where he wasn't ill.
> He didn't keel over and cough during mid fight, and he has a bloodline limit that makes his body alot stronger than average folk.
> So there is actually no way to know if he was dimished or not, or if he was, to what extend, but his situation is different from Itachi.



The fact that nothing was ever mentioned or implied as diminished chakra is what's important here. Just as with Itachi if Kishi expected diminished chakra to be a thing he probably would have mentioned it.




> Outliers don't make the rule.



It's not an outlier if it's the majority of evidence.



> What does that even mean ?



There's no chakra in the real world.

You get that right?

Think about this - you are attempting to prove diminished chakra capacity by using *real world* logic, while ignoring the fictional examples we have on hand.

Believe what you want man, I'm just pointing it out.



> You can't prove that with outlier examples.



Not an outlier.



> This is a discussion because I  stated that living Itachi could have replicated what he has done in Nagato and Kabuto battles and you objected.



Yes, you believe he can turn off and on his Susanoo like a flashlight despite having never done so.

You also believe Living Itachi can somehow perform just as many jutsus, despite having never done so.

Like I said, believe what you want, I'm just pointing it out.



> We aren't debating your benchmark. We are debating whether Itachi benefited from the virtue of the so called "infitite" stamina in his battles against Kabuto and Nagato, which I intially argued against.
> You brought up the whole "Edo Itachi used this much in a day" argument eventhough I repeatedly said I was talking about those battles by themselves.



And even then he shows more jutsus as an Edo.

And I have also agreed that Living Itachi would be able to somewhat match what he did in those fights with the risk of blindness and physical toll. You didn't seem to agree with that either.

So you believe Living Itachi could do exactly the same as his Edo counter part and also feel no ill effects from that output?

C'est La Vie.



> You think using that aditional V2-V4 Susano'O for around a minute on top of physically exerting himself further, while literally dying of a terminal disease is "marginally outpeforming ?"



You are the same guy who thinks activating ribcage or the arm briefly is significantly taxing, and you think Activating Susano'O twice and using it for over a minute(most of it V4) is only "*a marginal difference* ?"
Well if you think that is a marginal difference, then why do you think briefly activating a much lower stage of Susano'O is significant ?

Maybe you want to reconsider your opinion here.[/quote]

3 MS shot and a 50% shadow clone. That implies 6 MS shots max. You say his clone sent back all/most of the chakra, but how do you think it blows up? Probably used the chakra he poured into it to blow up.

Anyway doesn't matter, just going in circles.



> If Sasuke was literally out of chakra he would die, period. So when Itachi said "you are out" he clearly meant Sasuke didn't have chakra left to squeeze out another jutsu.
> Which also shows that sharingan doesn't drain much at all. So Itachi turning it off(intentionally or not) just shows that he literally was at the brink of exhaustion.
> Yes, let's move on from this.



Look dude, this isn't how this works.

You made a claim that Itachi *had to shut off his sharingan due to being "out of chakra"* but the evidence suggests that you can be out of chakra and not have to shut your sharingan off DISPROVING YOUR PREMISE.

You don't get to counter with the esoteric "really secretly truly out". Out is out. Itachi didn't even say he was out in part 1.

Whatever man, do your thing.



> You gotta stop that ridiculous 50% chakra notion.
> Itachi never used a MS jutsu when he had his clone out.



Covered above.



> I based it off on the area he used it on, compared to the size of the one that fully engulfed Sasuke's katon.
> But it doesn't matter that much.



Sure.



> Where does it say that ?



In the link I provided.

Perhaps it is not showing?

Crow Clone Technique (烏分身の術, Karasu Bunshin no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, C-rank, Supplementary
User: Uchiha Itachi

A human-shaped servant is created for get-togethers, inheriting his master's powers!!

A technique that produces a clone by projecting one's own chakra towards dozens of "crows". Because it uses crows as an medium, it requires less chakra then the normal "Shadow Clone Technique," while still being able to perform techniques.



> Karasubunshin is the same thing as Kagebunshin, it simply uses crows as a medium thus creating it requires less chakra, but it has the same functionality :



The point here is that Kagebunshin splits chakra.



> How do you ?



I don't, that's why I use a day as the metric.



> I don't, know since you mentioned it, I thought you would have thought about all the variables.



I don't think one can recover any significant amount of chakra in an hour, which would be the maximum amount of time passed here I think.



> Who knows ? Do you think it takes 50% chakra to make the clone explode ? So you think exploding clone would take much more chakra than a MS technique ?



Well I think how much an MS technique costs is dependent on the person executing the jutsu.

Ok, conservatively I would say an exploding clone takes maybe 15-20%. You would obviously lose some juice on just making the clone and the chakra split. You then need some chakra to make the clone explode and you get back what is left. It was a pretty significant explosion.

Link removed

This would still put his part 1 self at 4-5 MS shots max. Unless you think the exploding bunshin took nothing in terms of chakra.



> You see, when you create a kagebunshin or karasubunshin(which takes less chakra to create), you are basically splitting your chakra in half.



Crow bunshin does not split your chakra.



> Once the clone is dispersed, you gain access to 100% chakra(minus whatever the clone used).
> So unless you can prove that the exploding clone used significant amounts of chakra,  then we have to assume that Itachi regained access to his 100%(minus the explosionn technique) once it vanished.
> 
> So my friend, you gotta stop grasping at straws here.



Sure, let's stop grasping at straws.



> Itachi never ran out of chakra.
> So how would Zetsu compare Sick Itachi's limits to his previous limits unless he knew those limits ?



The same way he compared Itachi's performance and speed.

Zetsu only displayed knowledge about Itachi at this point in this regard even though there is no reason for him to know specifically these things. He can easily "know" his chakra limits for the sake of exposition if it were something intended to be an issue. 



> Think of it like this, you are watching a film which  you don't know how long it is.
> Then the film suddenly ends at 1.5 hour mark because of an error. How would you compare the length of that film to other films you've seen ?
> 
> We also know that Zetsu never seen Itachi go all out, because he hasn't seen Itachi's Susano'O before, so going by that Zetsu didn't know healthy Itachi's chakra limit either.



Did he use Susanoo in part one before he ran out of chakra?

Itachi does not need to activate Susanoo to reach his chakra limits. This is simply non sequitur. 



> Your argument is moot.



No, your response is a logical fallacy.



> I adressed the clone argument already, you are wrong about how it works.



Covered.



> Also there is no way to know how much time has passed. Naruto and Jiraiya encountered each other. Naruto went home to pack, and then they moved out. During that time, Kakashi got hospitalized, Sasuke stumbled upon their conversation and then went out to look for Naruto and then went to the wrong hotel, and then Itachi and Naruto met.
> This is a moot point anyways, but it surely wasn't 15 minutes lmao.



Sure, an hour then? Regardless not a significant amount of time.



> I'd say it would be proportional to chakra invested and the stress it puts on the eye.
> Seeing how Sasuke was comfortably using Susano'O V3 and then upgraded it to V4 and his eyes immediately gave out, I'd say the difference would be significant nontheless



Or his eyes gave out because he was already near his limits of MS jutsu usage considering how he was using them relentlessly.

He could have been at 95% to blindness, went v4, hit 98%. Not that this matter.




> Care to show me a MS jutsu that doesn't inflict any kind of pain/stress on it's use ?



They all do.

THAT'S THE POINT.

Although I thought you felt it didn't with Itachi in part 1?

*"We've seen Itachi didn't even start huffing and puffing after he infliced that 24 hour Tsukiyomi on Sasuke, he started running and casually whipped out Amaterasu and kept running afterwards."*

Maybe I took that implication the wrong way.



> I never said blindness correlates with pain.
> I said the *blindness caused by MS jutsu correlates with the stress they put the user.*
> Don't try to take the things I said out of context.



Sure, stress instead of pain.



> And yet it makes you blind and puts stress on the eye  :: Link removed
> Because theoritically it still qualifies as "using MS" as stupid as it is.
> 
> If you'd ask me, I honestly wouldn't even think Susano'O would cause blindness as it has nothing to do with the eyes, it is basically a glorified chakra shroud. But, manga says it does so whatever.



Surething.



> Well, he clearly was going by what've seen from MS Sasuke.  We've also seen ET Itachi manifest Susano'O when he was under the same kind of distress as Sasuke was, and Sasuke wasn't able to : Link removed
> And before you play the ET card, take a look at Itachi's face. He was clearly in pain and under the same distress as Sasuke.



ET card is being played.

Nobody said Edo's don't have physical sensations.



> Are you referring to something specific or general ? Care to provide an example ?



Part 1 vs part 2. You think there was power inflation specifically for Itachi even if his part 1 showing is consistent with his part 2.



> The examples are more or less the same. Sasuke's look worse because Kakashi is drawn smaller because he is further away so he is less detailed.
> You are nitpicking, honestly lets move on.



They are not the same, easily identifiable as different. They are both going blind, that's all we can prove here.



> Where are you getting at with this ?



Your premise is Edo Itachi did not use Amaterasu and Susanoo simultaneously, in an effort to disprove the super physical body of Edo vs a Healthy Uchiha. (At least I think that's what you were going for)

If the simultaneous use of Susanoo and amaterasu is a skill requirement and not a physical one, then it doesn't matter how buff Itachi's Edo body is until he meets the skill requirement.



> I've been giving you estimations like I said. You are just brushing them aside because they aren't 100% prove numbers ? You don't have those either.



I am asking for *your numbers*.

This discussion is impossible to move forward on unless you can outline your exact estimations and I can see where we differ the most. (Probably on V4 Susanoo)



> We saw him distressed right after he was recovering from Kirin, as he was trying to get up.
> 
> You basically falsely used that particular frame to indicate the activation put him under severe distress where there were other variables involved such as recovering from Kirin and his illness making him cough blood.



Let's try this again.

Your premise, not mine - *We've seen deathbed Itachi dismantle Yamata no Orochi with the strongest incarnation of Susano'O while taking his time, without showing any distress up until a certain point.
*
Itachi was clearly distressed post Kirin. Two things happened, Kirin and Susanoo activation. 

How are you determining what it was that causes him distress?

I'm not saying what distressed, I'm saying he was distressed. You are making the claim on the nature of the distress.




> How did I determine this ? Like I said, once he got up and fully manifested V4 he wasn't distressed, talking and acting normal.



He's panting right here - 

Link removed

He's bleeding and sweating in every shot. I'm not sure how you think he's not distressed.



> Later on he grabbed his chest and thats when Zetsu mentioned that using Susano'O came with risks, and that is what 've seen from Sasuke as well, along with his statement of Susano'O putting it's user under risk after long use.
> In other words deductive reasoning.



Sure. I'm just pointing these things out.



> For the last time each ribcage activation doesn't count as 1 MS use and I never said living Itachi could use MS through out the day as many times as the ET version did.



I know. I wasn't contesting that. 



> Your logic is false then.
> Because activating Susano'O doesn't alone define its use. It is just a small portion of it.



And here is our problem. You think turning on and off an MS jutsus is basically meaningless. I don't. MS use was always considered dangerous, any MS use.



> If you are arguing from what is narratively consistent, then how would you expect Kishimoto to make Itachi use Susano'O prior to Kirin without changing the entire story ?



Flashbacks?

Leave how he escaped toad stomach as a mystery?

You could literally do anything.



> Capability of doing something is different from actually doing it.
> What would be the point of giving himself different eyes ?
> What would Kishimoto gain by tricking the reader unless it led to a big revelation later on ?(which we know it never did)



You're missing the point.

Your premise fails once you consider that we see his eyes in the illusion. What's the point of manifesting a 4 eyed demon head? Link removed



> I never said he didn't use MS. I said it wasn't fully designed. So my guess is Kishimoto didn't give MS it's unique pattern at the time, that is why he didn't show the exact moment he used Tsukiyomi.
> But the pattern itself bears no mystery, so there is no logical reason of hiding it other than the fact that it didn't exist. We saw Itachi activate MS against Sasuke before they even started fighting.
> It is not like MS needs to be activated the moment the technique is used and deacitvated immediately after.



Your answer is it's an illusion. I understand your position but we have an answer. Really not much else to be said.



> Because the only comparison you can draw from is Itachi during his fight against Sasuke, where was fighting with a weak body. So we don't know how Itachi'd handle MS if he wasn't dying from an illness, but going by Zetsu's description, it would be significantly different.



Part 1?

Plus the comparison is in regards to his chakra capacity, not his ability to kick Hebi's ass.

He was also inferirior to Itachi by his self admission. He initially had problems maintaining ribcage and couldn't even hold V4.
So he is not a good indicator on how Itachi'd perform as well.[/quote]

He was inferior *at first*. He obviously progressed past Itachi in some areas. (amaterasu)



> If it was, then Obito would compliment him, instead of criticizing him for "overusing" it.



Two jutsus at once can still be an aspect of skill and qualify as overuse, they are not mutually exclusive.

Plus Obito couldn't know if it's skill or not because he's never had 2 eyes.



> Nah, despite Itachi's Edo body, he never fought OOC(aside from turning off Susano'O at the end to lure Kabuto in).



When have we ever seen Itachi use Susanoo that much in continuity?



> Again, you are 100% off.
> 
> Why is the Amaterasu on crow is there ? It was done after the battle.
> And why is Susano'O usage is split in 3 parts ? He activated V2 as he karatechopped Nagato, and then used Magatama as he upgraded to V3 and upgraded to V4 and sealed Nagato, all of which happened within 30 seconds or so, maybe less given the CT bit probably took a couple of seconds despite the convos. But he never used Susano'O on different instances.



Wait so do the Susanoo levels ups not mean anything? 

But small activations don't mean anything either?

Lol, it's fine it doesn't matter.



> Itachi vs Nagato - Itachi vs Sasuke :
> Katons negate each other, 2 Amaterasu negate each other. Itachi used Susano'O longer against Sasuke, and he used Tsukiyomi on top of it. The only additional thing Edo Itachi has is Magatama, and honestly I highly doubt it counts as 1 Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi. It is an extention of Susano'O that can be even used in V3.
> 
> So Sick Itachi has Edo Itachi beat here. With the additional Tsukiyomi and additional V4 usage.



Yeah sure, doesn't matter.

There is functionally no difference between using 4 jutsus in a fight lasting 15 minutes and using 4 jutsus in a fight lasting 13 minutes and then using a jutsu within 2 minutes of the end of the fight.

This is the point. Living Itachi cannot replicate Edo Itachi's feats. When people say Edo Itachi spammed his MS they are specifically considering stuff like VAPORIZING A CROW WITH AMATERASU.  

This is the crux of the entire discussion, so nothing else really matters. Yes if you declare jutsus usage only counts from 1 specific point to another ie: the "fight", you could say that Living Itachi could possible match Edo. (Should we eliminate the first genjutsu against Sasuke because they weren't fighting?)

No hard feelings, I understand what you are saying, I just can't agree. But I will concede that technically in the time frame you have provided the jutsu usage is similar.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 26, 2019)

Kai said:


> Itachi is mentioned to have been able to kill [Hebi] Sasuke if he wanted, despite being just moments from deaths door. This narrative leads me to believe Itachi’s control over the fight was firm enough there was no chance of dying to illness before the fight was over. This also implies even had Sasuke tried to take advantage of Itachi’s illness it would not succeed had Itachi wanted him dead.
> 
> Expect Itachi to be able to match Sasuke in MS endurance thanks to higher pain threshold; He also holds superior offensive/defensive weapons thanks to Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror, the latter which should be even more durable than Susanoo.
> 
> TL;DR Itachi high-extreme diffs. Sasuke needs EMS to surpass Itachi IMO.



The same narrative which said that the only reason Sasuke can't kill Itachi is because he lacks the Mangekyou? 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Who is though ?
> Honestly I never saw anyone claim those things you did. Maybe a few individuals ?
> Definitely not enough to make a generalization.



_*You*_ are really saying you have _never _seen anyone claim that sort of thing?


----------



## Kai (Mar 26, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The same narrative which said that the only reason Sasuke can't kill Itachi is because he lacks the Mangekyou?


Sasuke may have surpassed Itachi eventually with a mastered Mangekyō but transplanted Itachi’s eyes before doing so (e.g. Susanoo).


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## Santoryu (Mar 26, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 1. Which is why Sasuke could handle opponents far faster and stronger than Itachi better than Itachi could?
> 2. Doesn't mean Itachi can't be overwhelmed.
> 3. Itachi's Susano'o is featless.
> 4. No, Itachi's stamina is shit even without his illness. Sasuke can spam the MS, Itachi is limited to three, at most four uses PER DAY. Even when he was healthy in Part I, he could only use the MS three time's a day before he couldn't maintain his Sharingan and needed significant rest.
> ...





Santoryu said:


> Itachi solos
> 
> finger genjutsu plus kunai slash has a finesse that is beyond the conceptual realm of the younger brother. forest level katons smash through Sasuke's defended, leaving a crack in the purple humanoid. The burning black inferno incinerated all physical matter while the altering dimension of willpower proceed to show themselves. A stationary figure resides upon the chair while a metaphorical world engulfs the man into the abyss of the forgotten.



You negged me for this post 

Your hatred is not strong enough!!!!!!!


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## kokodeshide (Mar 26, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> You negged me for this post
> 
> Your hatred is not strong enough!!!!!!!


He negged me too, he is too salty.



ShinAkuma said:


> Yes I did go to school for "maths" lol


He must be british or something, they say maths.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 26, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> He must be british or something, they say maths.



I know it was my lowkey troll.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 26, 2019)

Kai said:


> Sasuke may have surpassed Itachi eventually with a mastered Mangekyō but transplanted Itachi’s eyes before doing so (e.g. Susanoo).



Sasuke achieved a full Susanoo (V4) before he transplanted Itachi's eyes. His Susanoo has shown it can actually use jutsu (e.g. Enton) unlike Itachi's. Sasuke also had the stamina to spam it more than Itachi and even outright surpassed Itachi's Amaterasu use. We're led to believe MS Sasuke is stronger by Itachi's words and by the fact Sasuke was bit against foes stronger than the ones Itachi faced.

In fact, Sasuke _exceeded _Itachi's expectations. Itachi, despite expecting Sasuke to obtain the MS and eventually the EMS, was surprised that Sasuke was able to use Susanoo and was impressed that Sasuke could even survive fighting Danzo using Izanagi.


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## kokodeshide (Mar 26, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I know it was my lowkey troll.


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## Shazam (Mar 26, 2019)

*EMS Sasuke > Edo Itachi > V4 Susanoo MS Sasuke > Living Itachi >= V3 Susanoo MS Sasuke *


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 26, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> _*You*_ are really saying you have _never _seen anyone claim that sort of thing?


Are you implying you have ?
Maybe someone said it but who cares ? The way Shazam said it, he made it sound like it was the general consensus or something, but during the time I posted here, I don't recall reading such claims.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 26, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Are you implying you have ?
> Maybe someone said it but who cares ? The way Shazam said it, he made it sound like it was the general consensus or something, but during the time I posted here, I don't recall reading such claims.



Let's not play dumb here. You know which posters have said this before and I know which posters have said this before.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 26, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Let's not play dumb here. You know which posters have said this before and I know which posters have said this before.


I honestly don't remember.


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## Sapherosth (Mar 26, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I was under the impression the first clone was a genjutsu. The Crow bunshin to give Naruto Shishu's eye occurred prior to the Uchiha fight, as such it wasn't considered.



The first clone was not a genjutsu. 

It occurred prior, but was the chakra recovered? Tell me the length of time between it. 



> Technically I prefer using the *day* as a metric to measure capability. You obviously understand the implications of using the day.



Why would that matter? All that matters is how many jutsu someone can use within a SINGLE fight. 



> I wasn't offering a reason on why Sasuke won. I was pointing out there was an opportunity to express Itachi had diminished chakra if that were the case via the katon head to head.



Well you were wrong. Concede? 





> The point is to show that one can be sick with no obvious change to chakra capacity. There is no rule when it comes to this.



And the only example of this being the case is....Kimi? 

Whose to say Kimi's chakra wasn't affected? Sure, you could bring up the fact that Kimi got a 5 for chakra in the databook but that doesn't mean Kimi's chakra wasn't affected. 

5 may be the maximum, but that's as far as it goes. We know Naruto has far more than just a 5. 

Kimi may be a 6 or a 7 but the illness reduced it to a 5. Who knows. 




> Do you need MS to use Susanoo any version? Yes. Therefore it is an MS technique.
> 
> And My argument isn't that Living Itachi is *incapable* of using, but that he could not afford to use it in this manner.



Yes, It is an MS tech, but you are implying that the chakra usage is the same which is absolutely wrong. 




> If a certain level of skill is required to perform two MS jutsus simultaneously then how good or bad the body is won't be relevant until you meet the skill requirement..



What proof do you have that it requires a certain level of skill? It's actually ridiculous to say that Itachi cannot use Amateratsu while using Susano. 

That's just outright stupid. 








> Edo Itachi one day -
> 
> Katon - Link removed
> Katon shurikens - Link removed
> ...





Itachi used all those to fight 2 battles. 

He won't need all of it to finish 1 battle. Like I already said, the amount he used in 1 battle is no more than what he could already do whilst Alive & sick. 

Who gives a fuck how much Edo Itachi used in 1 day. All that matters is he has enough to finish his opponent. 




Yes I did go to school for "maths" lol

Count Edo's entire jutsu use, count Living. How's your math doing?[/QUOTE]


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## Sapherosth (Mar 26, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Let's not play dumb here. You know which posters have said this before and I know which posters have said this before.




Who said Itachi has V2 A level of speed? 

Go find it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 27, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> It is possible he could have maintained Susanoo longer, but going by his history, not much longer.


I'll take that as a concession then.


> 5 MS shots is coming to his limit.


This is something you made up.


> In other words arbitrary.
> 
> What you consider "common sense" doesn't mean it actually is. In a manga dictated by it's own rules it's difficult to label what is considered sensical in relation to that.


Manga has its own rules but it also has alot of rules that correlate with our world. So common sense applies unless it is stated or shown otherwise. 



> Common sense dictates that Living Itachi could not replicate an immortal regenerating infinite chakra version of himself.


I agree, and that is completely irrelevant to the debate.



> You have arbitrarily decided Itachi must have lower chakra capacity,


I decided that because he was terminally ill and was dying.
There is nothing arbitrary in that.



> despite his chakra use being consistent with his part 1 self


But it's not, like I've already proved.

In part 1 after using his 3rd MS technique during the day, he turned off his sharingan and told Kisame he had to rest.

In part 2, after using his 3rd MS, within a much shorter time frame, on top of more physical exertion(as we know chakra comes from stamina so physical activity by the virtue of lowering your stamina will also lower your available chakra) + the physical detriments of his terminal illness, he still had juice to use Susano'O for a significant amount of time.

There is no consistency here.



> and despite no direct evidence to support it.


You mean the already established link between body(stamina) and chakra that you brushed aside.



> We in fact evidence of a sick ninja with no clear chakra reduction.
> 
> The fact that nothing was ever mentioned or implied as diminished chakra is what's important here. Just as with Itachi if Kishi expected diminished chakra to be a thing he probably would have mentioned it.


You are basically ignoring everything I've said about Kimi and his bloodline. 
We weren't informed about any downside of Kimi's illness though. Like we weren't told that he was slower, less reactive, nor any comparison regarding his actual capabilities. So the extend of the health detriments are completely unknown to us. 

But that's fine, there is something more important here. Like Itachi, Kimimaro died unexpectedly while he was in the midst of using a jutsu. Both characters never went out of chakra at any point in their fight, nor had any trouble manifesting a technique attributed to lack of chakra. So contextually, whether they had diminished chakra compared to their healthier incarnations or not was a moot point.

In other words, absence of evidence is not evidence.


> It's not an outlier if it's the majority of evidence.


But it's not.
You can make a research and find out the majority of terminally ill people will have weakened bodies.


> There's no chakra in the real world.
> 
> You get that right?
> 
> ...



Whether chakra exists or not is irrelevant here because we know the mechanics and technical details regarding chakra, and it is directly linked to *stamina, which is a real life concept.
*
So basically shinobi draw chakra from their stamina. 
he still managed to activate an instant later

It is no different than drawing from your stamina to perform a physical task, it comes from the same pool.
So any physical detriment his illness had on his stamina will inevitably reflect on his chakra because chakra reserves are allocated from stamina. 



> Not an outlier.


So  you are saying that the concept of a sick person with a strong body with no diminished physical capabilities is not an outlier ? 



> Yes, you believe he can turn off and on his Susanoo like a flashlight despite having never done so.


He never done that because it wasn't contextually relevant.
But we've seen him use the strongest version of Susano'O for much longer than those "activations", which is directly stated to be more taxing, both because of the duration and because of it's relative power.


> You also believe Living Itachi can somehow perform just as many jutsus, despite having never done so.


I proved that Itachi performed more or less the same amount of jutsu he performed against Kabuto or Nagato.


> Like I said, believe what you want, I'm just pointing it out.


It has nothing to do with believing or not, numbers don't lie.


> And even then he shows more jutsus as an Edo


Through out the day ? Yes.
Per battle ? No.
Which is what I've been saying since the beginning.
.


> And I have also agreed that Living Itachi would be able to somewhat match what he did in those fights with the risk of blindness and physical toll. You didn't seem to agree with that either.


I never said Itachi can replicate it with no toll.

I said he would have replicated it with less tolls if he wasn't sick, which isn't what I was arguing against either. I was simply adressing the infinite stamina argument, which never came into picture against Itachi's battles against Nagato or Kabuto.



> So you believe Living Itachi could do exactly the same as his Edo counter part and also feel no ill effects from that output?
> 
> C'est La Vie.


Not sure why this is relevant, I never said anything of that nature.
Are you changing the goal post now ?


> 3 MS shot and a 50% shadow clone.
> That implies 6 MS shots max. You say his clone sent back all/most of the chakra, but how do you think it blows up? Probably used the chakra he poured into it to blow up.
> 
> Anyway doesn't matter, just going in circles.


It does matter.
Because you recently started with the 50% clone nonsense, so your opinion was the same prior to the clone thing.
Also 50% clone argument is BS unless you can prove that the clone wasted all 50% of that chakra to blow up. 


> Look dude, this isn't how this works.
> You made a claim that Itachi *had to shut off his sharingan due to being "out of chakra"* but the evidence suggests that you can be out of chakra and not have to shut your sharingan off DISPROVING YOUR PREMISE.


I'm wondering how long you are going to ignore the fact that when Itachi said "you are out" he didn't mean Saske was literally out. He meant Sasuke didn't have chakra left to squeeze out another jutsu, that is why he was suprised when Sasuke told him that he still had his trump card.

So with whatever small chakra Sasuke had left, he could keep sharingan active.
How does that disrpove my claim again ?

In one hand you have a guy who can keep his sharingan active with almost no chakra, and in the other you have a guy who can't keep his sharingan active at all.
The only logical outcome of that comparison is that the second guy had less chakra left compared to the first one.
So If anything, it reinforces my point even further lmao.



> Covered above.


You covered what ? By claiming that the clone used 50% of the chakra to blow up ? 
Based on what do you think a simple technique like that would take half of someones chakra pool, more than MS techniques ?



> In the link I provided.
> 
> Perhaps it is not showing?
> 
> ...



Karasubunshin is a Kagebunshin variant. It is the same technique, the only difference is that crows are used as a medium, so it takes less chakra to use it, but it can still use techniques.
It literally says in  the description.


> The point here is that Kagebunshin splits chakra.


So how do you think karasubunshin uses techniques then ? With imaginary chakra ?

Eitherway the chakra splitting is only relevant as long as the bunshin is active, as soon as it disperses the original can access the totality of chakra.
Part 1 Itachi never used his MS when the bunshin was around. 


> I don't think one can recover any significant amount of chakra in an hour, which would be the maximum amount of time passed here I think.


It is impossible to know if it was 1 hours, or 2  3. The only inuniverse known timeframe we have is that we know Itachi and Kisame arrived in the morning, and Jiraiya and Naruto had lunch together. Which doesn't tell us anything.

Even if it is 1 hours though(my estimation would be longer), Itachi would have recovered some amount  during his idle time that we can't ignore, whether it is 5 or 10%, it would still make a difference.



> Well I think how much an MS technique costs is dependent on the person executing the jutsu.
> 
> Ok, conservatively I would say an exploding clone takes maybe 15-20%. You would obviously lose some juice on just making the clone and the chakra split. You then need some chakra to make the clone explode and you get back what is left. It was a pretty significant explosion.
> 
> ...



We are playing the numbers game with no actual evidence. We can't know how much the clone took out of Itachi. You are saying 15-20%, maybe it is 5-10% maybe less maybe more. 

But what we know is that the 50% 3 MS shot thing is completely made up. 

If that clone took up 15% of Itachi's chakra, and 20% with the water missile. Then it still leaves Itachi with 3 MS shots @ 80% chakra + the recovery he made during the idle time.
So It still doesn't add up to 4 MS shots.

The only way part 1 Itachi could have room for 4 shots or more is, if the clone took alot of chakra, he made no recovery during the idle time, and when he deactivated his sharingan he still had significant enough chakra left for another jutsu.
None of which can be backed up by any form of evidence.



> Crow bunshin does not split your chakra.


By the virtue of being a KB variant and operating under the same mechanics, I'd say it does but it is a moot point. Unless Itachi can use 3 MS when the clone is running around then there is no way to claim that he can use 3 MS shots with 50% chakra. That is a false premise.



> The same way he compared Itachi's performance and speed.


Which he could judge easily without seeing one person going all out.
You dodge X, and you fail to dodge Y and I can draw a comparison just by looking at one instance.

When it comes to chakra limit, how am I to draw a comparison without seeing you go all out ?
Think about it.


> Zetsu only displayed knowledge about Itachi at this point in this regard even though there is no reason for him to know specifically these things. He can easily "know" his chakra limits for the sake of exposition if it were something intended to be an issue.



Exposition has to be contextually relevant. A character won't go OOC to state something that isn't relevant at the time. 



> Did he use Susanoo in part one before he ran out of chakra?
> 
> Itachi does not need to activate Susanoo to reach his chakra limits. This is simply non sequitur.


Fair enough.


> No, your response is a logical fallacy.


How is it a logical fallacy ?  Itachi died before he ran out chakra. There was no ground for Zetsu to draw a comparison from.



> Sure, an hour then? Regardless not a significant amount of time.


 It is basically an unknown amount of idle time. 


> Or his eyes gave out because he was already near his limits of MS jutsu usage considering how he was using them relentlessly.
> 
> He could have been at 95% to blindness, went v4, hit 98%. Not that this matter.


It is likely both. Sasuke already admitted that maintaining higher stages would be harder when he drew a comparison between his V1 and Itachi's "perfect Susano'O."
So the moment he reaches the perfect version his eyes gave out because it is clearly more taxing than V3 and harder to achieve, seeing how that was a gradual progress.


> They all do.
> 
> THAT'S THE POINT.
> 
> ...



No, you are trying to take it out of context.
I've always said that MS jutsu take toll with *varying degrees.*
Never said anything different here. I'm just saying that Izanami and Izanagi are non MS jutsu that operate under different mechancs. You can't draw a comparison.



> Sure, stress instead of pain.


Pain/stress being the indicator of the severity of it's use, then yes, the blindness would correlate with it.


> ET card is being played.
> 
> Nobody said Edo's don't have physical sensations.


If that jutsu is putting Itachi under the same discomfort as Sasuke, it makes no difference then does it ?


> Part 1 vs part 2. You think there was power inflation specifically for Itachi even if his part 1 showing is consistent with his part 2.


Which I've provided more than enough evidence for.
How do you even consider that arbitrary at this point ? You can say that you disagree, but arbitrary ? You are simply being dishonest.



> They are not the same, easily identifiable as different. They are both going blind, that's all we can prove here.


Let me ask you something.
Do you think you could see the same details on someone's face who is standing 10 meters away from you, compared to someone who is 5 meters away ?




> Your premise is Edo Itachi did not use Amaterasu and Susanoo simultaneously, in an effort to disprove the super physical body of Edo vs a Healthy Uchiha. (At least I think that's what you were going for)
> 
> If the simultaneous use of Susanoo and amaterasu is a skill requirement and not a physical one, then it doesn't matter how buff Itachi's Edo body is until he meets the skill requirement.



You'd have a point if we were told that Sasuke was a more skilled MS user than Itachi, but we know that at that point he wasn't able to even get his Susano'O above V2. 
Not only there is not enough evidence to validate that it was a skill based move, but there is also no evidence to say that Sasuke was more skilled than Itachi.



> I am asking for *your numbers*.
> 
> This discussion is impossible to move forward on unless you can outline your exact estimations and I can see where we differ the most. (Probably on V4 Susanoo)



Like I told  you, V2, V3, and V4 are different layers of the same thing.
V2 is basically the skeletal structure. V3 is slightly bigger due to the added muscle tissue and clothes. And V4 even bigger with the Tengu armor and from what we've seen Totsuka's gourd is exclusive to Itachi's V4. He never used Totsuka with lower stages, he used Yata with V3 though.

V1 on the other hand, is like an incomplete miniature version of the skeletal structure V2.

There is no way to give specific numbers, but we can easily say that there is a big leap between V1 and V2, both in terms of  the complexity and the size of the chakra construct, but size being the most predominant.

he still managed to activate an instant later
vs
he still managed to activate an instant later

We've also seen special equipment on the V4s of both Sasuke and Itachi. Itachi's V4 has Totsuka and Sasuke's V4 has enton sword.

It's like V4 > V3 > V2 >> V1



> Your premise, not mine - *We've seen deathbed Itachi dismantle Yamata no Orochi with the strongest incarnation of Susano'O while taking his time, without showing any distress up until a certain point.
> *
> Itachi was clearly distressed post Kirin. Two things happened, Kirin and Susanoo activation.
> 
> ...



You forgot the 3rd thing. He was coughing blood prior to both of those things.
So I'd say Itachi being distressed was mainly due to illness, then obviously some damage he took from Kirin + collapsing along with the Temple he was standing on. 

Susano'O started taking it's toll after he used it for a while.



> He's panting right here -
> 
> Link removed
> 
> He's bleeding and sweating in every shot. I'm not sure how you think he's not distressed.


He was bleeding and sweating ever since he used his first Amaterasu.
Not sure what that proves.



> And here is our problem. You think turning on and off an MS jutsus is basically meaningless. I don't. MS use was always considered dangerous, any MS use.


You can't make a broad generalization like "MS USE" when the use of Susano'O is defined by many other variables.
I'm not saying it means nothing. I'm saying that we should consider how he used Susano'O.
When you consider that Susano'O becomes more taxing the longer you use it, and the further you upgrade, it I think we can safely say that briefly activating the most simple variant will be alot less taxing.



> Flashbacks?
> 
> Leave how he escaped toad stomach as a mystery?
> 
> You could literally do anything.



So basically re-write story just to showcase that Itachi was capable of using ribcage Susano'O? 

How would we know which stage he used to break out of Toad stomach if it was done off panel ?
How would he create the Kirin cliffhanger when we knew that he had Susano'O ?
Do you honestly think that is a legitimate argument ?



> You're missing the point.
> 
> Your premise fails once you consider that we see his eyes in the illusion. What's the point of manifesting a 4 eyed demon head? Link removed


I'm not missing anything.
You are claiming that Itachi gave himself 3 tomoe eyes, despite having his MS activated in reality. I'm asking why he would do such a thing.



> Your answer is it's an illusion. I understand your position but we have an answer. Really not much else to be said.


"It is an illusion so it doesn't matter" is a cop out argument.


> He was inferior *at first*. He obviously progressed past Itachi in some areas. (amaterasu)


Some.
He never progressed past him in Susano'O and MS Genjutsu.
So yeah, until he got the eye transplant he never truly surpassed Itachi as a MS user.



> Two jutsus at once can still be an aspect of skill and qualify as overuse, they are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> Plus Obito couldn't know if it's skill or not because he's never had 2 eyes.


Obito had knowledge about alot of things he wasn't capable of using himself. 
Even a fodder like C can identify and comment on superior use of a MS jutsu(compared Sasuke's Amaterasu to Itachi's) then it wouldn't be out of place for Obito to do so as well.
Also even if they aren't mutualy exclusive, Obito could add in a complimentary remark on top of it. It was never mentioned, so there is no evidence that it is a skill based act.


> When have we ever seen Itachi use Susanoo that much in continuity?



I'd say the longest he used it was against Sasuke, from the moment he used it to block Kirin to the moment he died. He used it continiously.
Second one is probably against Nagato, from the point he Karatechopped him to the point he sealed him.



> Wait so do the Susanoo levels ups not mean anything?



No, the upgrades always happen whenever they use V3 or V4.
Those "upgrades" you listed apply to Sick Itachi as well.
We saw Sick Itachi activate a partial V2 at first, and then he upgraded it to V4, going through the same process Edo Itachi went through. So they aren't exclusive to the edo incarnation. It was pointless to list em. But whatever helps your case right ? 


> But small activations don't mean anything either?
> 
> Lol, it's fine it doesn't matter.


Pay attention to the context.



> There is functionally no difference between using 4 jutsus in a fight lasting 15 minutes and using 4 jutsus in a fight lasting 13 minutes and then using a jutsu within 2 minutes of the end of the fight.
> 
> This is the point. Living Itachi cannot replicate Edo Itachi's feats. When people say Edo Itachi spammed his MS they are specifically considering stuff like VAPORIZING A CROW WITH AMATERASU.


I  don't know in whose behalf you are speaking, but that's not what I'm arguing against.

People actually have the misconception that Itachi relied on infinite stamina specifically against his bouts against Nagato or Kabuto and he pulled those off only because he was an Edo.

Anything other than that doesn't interest me, never did, since the start of the debate.
For the millionth time, I don't care about capability, all I care about is display.



> (Should we eliminate the first genjutsu against Sasuke because they weren't fighting?)


No, because it happens within the same encounter against the same opponent.



> This is the crux of the entire discussion, so nothing else really matters. Yes if you declare jutsus usage only counts from 1 specific point to another ie: the "fight", you could say that Living Itachi could possible match Edo.
> No hard feelings, I understand what you are saying, I just can't agree. But I will concede that technically in the time frame you have provided the jutsu usage is similar.


That's all I wanted to hear.


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## Kai (Mar 27, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke achieved a full Susanoo (V4) before he transplanted Itachi's eyes.


Didn’t have what it takes to maintain it 

Incomparable to Itachi who kept last stage Susanoo _active and _defeated Orochimaru’s Eight Branches, right before his death.


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## ThirdRidoku (Mar 28, 2019)

@SuperSaiyaMan12 


I could care less what you think of my post lmao. You have no facts to support any of your claims of " fanboyism" so I accept your concession, especially since you clearly ignore the manga and Kishimoto's word


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 28, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> @SuperSaiyaMan12
> 
> 
> I could care less what you think of my post lmao. You have no facts to support any of your claims of " fanboyism" so I accept your concession, especially since you clearly ignore the manga and Kishimoto's word


Other than actual evidence from the manga? Itachi himself said if Sasuke gained the Mangekyo Sharingan, Sasuke would have been the winner of their fight. I ignore the manga? You continue to fanboy over Itachi and use hyperbole and create 'feats' for him which he never had.


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## ThirdRidoku (Mar 28, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Other than actual evidence from the manga? Itachi himself said if Sasuke gained the Mangekyo Sharingan, Sasuke would have been the winner of their fight. I ignore the manga? You continue to fanboy over Itachi and use hyperbole and create 'feats' for him which he never had.



Lmao itachi never said that. Obito and sasuke himself admitted that itachi could have killed him at any point during that fight.

You literally ignored all the points in my post and called me a fanboy when it's clear you have no clue what you are talking about , and I'm fairly certain you didnt actually take a look at the feats I cited. The bias is on your end.

Black zetsu stated he was invincible with yata and totsuka.

Totsuka blitzed Nagato and Orochimaru without either of them being able to mentally react. Orochimaru has reacted to sasuke's chidori but he couldn't react at all to Totsuka. 

Nagato can sense v4 Susano'o  regardless of whether or not kabuto knew about his sensory mode. I linked you  a post of mine proving that non sensors have sensed chakra all over the manga sufficient the chakra is powerful enough to manifest itself in a visible form. But you ignored it due to bias. He  was watching the blade with his eyes anyways Too. Therefore Black Zetsu was telling the truth. The databook says the same shit lmao. 

You also ignored the fact that Itachi has clone feinted everyone he has ever battle including Sasuke lmao. It happened on panel, but you have the nerve to claim I'm biased meanwhile you deny on panel feats.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 29, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I honestly don't remember.



I think you do. 



Sapherosth said:


> Who said Itachi has V2 A level of speed?
> 
> Go find it.



I didn't address you, but if the shoe fits... also I'm certain you know what I'm on about too.


Kai said:


> Didn’t have what it takes to maintain it
> 
> Incomparable to Itachi who kept last stage Susanoo _active and _defeated Orochimaru’s Eight Branches, right before his death.



It didn't disappear because Sasuke couldn't maintain it. It disappeared because Sasuke was shocked about his vision loss; we've seen Susanoo used by the blind and eye-less. It still counted as part of his arsenal.

If I ignore context like that then I'd be saying it isn't comparable to Itachi's.


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