# Is Tobirama overrated?



## Matty (May 15, 2016)

Just an analysis of his BD standing. I have no opinion really besides that he is a low end high kage. But does anyone think he is overrated/underrated?


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2016)

He's only underrated by those that think Tobirama is trash to make Minato look good, but I think he's rated pretty generously. 

 In my opinion, he's at least above Minato and any of the Sannin individually based on his speed, reactions, and his knowledge and versatility when it comes to ninjutsu.


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## Matty (May 15, 2016)

Above Minato?? I think he is above Sannin but under Minato tbh.


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## ImSerious (May 15, 2016)

Matty said:


> Above Minato?? I think he is above Sannin but under Minato tbh.


Don't bother with that guy mate, for your own good.

I believe Tobirama is around Minato's level, which is top tier, far above the sannin and gokages. But I think i'm in the minorty when it comes to him.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Saru (May 15, 2016)

I think Tobirama's as strong as Minato at best, but I don't think he's any stronger than him. Above the Sannin level but not like multiple tiers above them or anything. You certainly don't see any "Tobirama vs. the Sannin" threads in the NBD.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2016)

Yes, Tobirama is grossly overrated, but that's understandable given the clusterfuck that was the Birth of the Jūbi Jin Arc. I have him around Sannin-level, though I'd give him the nod over Itachi because of his background.


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## Matty (May 15, 2016)

Yea I see him being a tier higher than Sannin at best so I agree with you all there. He certainly is powerful but he lacks a lot of raw offensive firepower


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## sharingankid123 (May 15, 2016)

Ofc, What Tobirama did to konoha was to raise dumb old mans like Danzou, Hiruzen and the others conselors with dumb philosophies who were just following Tobirama way of thinking  
As for fighting aspect, Tobirama spent his life running away from Madara

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Equilibrium139 (May 15, 2016)

sharingankid123 said:


> Ofc, What Tobirama did to konoha was to raise dumb old mans like Danzou, Hiruzen and the others conselors with dumb philosophies who were just following Tobirama way of thinking
> As for fighting aspect, Tobirama spent his life running away from Madara


Huh??? That has nothing to do with whether or not he's overrated, not to mention the fact that the last part is completely inaccurate as well.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

Yes, he is overrated.

People will go as far as denying canon (his battles with Kin/Gin) to over-glorify him. All based on tagging Obito, and of course ignoring the price he had to pay in order to do that (losing half of his body). I think he is around the Sannin-level, but weaker than them overall, as I think the manga made it apparent well enough that they are (along side Hiruzen) stronger than Tobirama.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 3


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## ImSerious (May 15, 2016)

y u do dis hussain


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## $Kakashi$ (May 15, 2016)

He's basically a slightly worse version of Minato.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 15, 2016)

$Kakashi$ said:


> He's basically a slightly worse version of Minato.


This. 

Saying tobirama is better than/can beat minato is the very definition of overrating him.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

@
Kishi is the one who did it bro, not me. 

People overrate a lot of Tobirama's abilities, and they do it grossly as well. They still believe in the rubbish that he is some super Water-Style user based on a false-hype of an ANBU saying "incredible" when they know for a fact that not only the ANBU did not say "Oh, wow! He is the best Water-Style user ever" but they know that it got retconned as well!

Or the fact that they will be willing to give ET as a part of Tobirama's power when it comes to Vs threads. However, they will never acknowledge that ET is part of Oro's power as well that he can use it. See Tobirama Vs itachi for example, ET is a factor there for a lot of people. Those same people won't acknowledge that Oro became far stronger than itachi with his ET, and will not count it as part of his power. They are stuck in the past.

Others will take Tobirama's Water-style that cut down the Tree's branches and make it deadly as fuck. Those same people won't take
Jiraiya Odoma-Rassengan or his combination jutsu (Fire, oil, and Wind) to be as deadly... 

His Shunshin speed is overrated when we have seen it to be rather average at best. Most of his overestimation comes from what people expect him to be because he "Was fighting uchiha his whole life" or "he has a sword since he was young, and therefore he must be super good with swords"

His sensing abilities are always overexaggerated to ridiculous levels because "OMG! he sensed Hashirama's cells!!! That must be the best feats ever!!!!" The same feat that a non-sensor is capable of doing better!! (Oro) 

and the same with his chakra, taijutsu, and many other shit...

literally, every aspect of Tobirama is severely overrated. 


Edit:

And the garbage about his "greater versatility"

credits to @UchihaX28 
Did not remember this one...

Reactions: Informative 2


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## wooly Eullerex (May 15, 2016)

he is the 17th strongest legitimate character.


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## Equilibrium139 (May 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> @
> Most of his overestimation comes from what people expect him to be because he "Was fighting uchiha his whole life"


I find this to be pretty hypocritical because you used this argument yourself in an Itachi v Tobirama thread.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> I find this to be pretty hypocritical because you used this argument yourself in an Itachi v Tobirama thread.



I put Tobirama over itachi because he defeated Izuna, not some unknown uchiha-fodders. He probably did not even fight those uchiha fodders to begin with as he has always been shown to be fighting Izuna, and when Izuna got killed, the battle between the uchiha and Senju ended as well in that regard. 

Of course, defeating Izuna does not necessarily mean he can defeat itachi. However, as itachi himself being disgustingly overrated, I don't see the regular MS users to be that far away in term of levels as itachi's fans would love to think that he is better than all other MS users by a good deal. 

When Tobirama defeated Izuna they were in their early 20s (24 to be exact). And since Tobirama is already aware of Enton, and we know that MS gives you Susanoo as well. I don't see itachi beating Tobirama. meh...


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## Isaiah13000 (May 15, 2016)

Indeed he is, all of the arguments created for Tobirama vs. Minato or anyone else make this as clear as day. People say he has superior reactions because he was able to tag mindless Jubito, yet he did it at the expense of losing half of his body. They say he was able to react to Juubito's Gudoudama and return it back to mindful Juubito whilst KCM Minato couldn't. They say this makes Tobirama > KCM Minato in term of reflexes yet completely ignore the fact that this is an interception feat which means it doesn't count as much. As it has been shown multiple times that intercepting attacks not directed at you is far easier than ones aimed at you. If you follow their logic, then you have Suigetsu having superior reflexes than Taka Sasuke because he could intercept an attack from A when Sasuke couldn't. Or both Guy and Lee being faster than Juudara's Gudoudama because Guy saved Kakashi from one and Lee saved Guy from one. But as usual the biased ones completely ignore things like that.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 15, 2016)

Can't say if he is overrated don't pay enough attention for that. But he is really, super strong.


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2016)

Matty said:


> Above Minato?? I think he is above Sannin but under Minato tbh.



 Tobirama has greater versatility and higher speed, reflexes, and a significant sensory advantage. There's no reason why Minato should even be above him when he outperformed KCM Minato during the War Arc.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

The most hilarious arguments about Tobirama's level is when it comes to "oh, he has FTG, he must be on the same level as Minato" 

When Minato was able to shut down armies by himself, and Tobirama couldn't handle handful of fodders even with help!
Or that Minato being able to deal with A-B who are known to be the strongest-tag-team in Kumo, and meanwhile Tobirama
couldn't handle Kin-Gin even with the Raikage along side him...

But somehow they are on the same level because "same jutsu"  

Those same people who wouldn't say that Tobi (the zetsu) is as powerful as Hashirama because both they have Buddha
or that Rinnegan Sasuke = DMS Kakashi = EMS Madara because they all have PS.

And so on...


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Tobirama has greater versatility and higher speed, reflexes, and a significant sensory advantage. There's no reason why Minato should even be above him when he outperformed KCM Minato during the War Arc.



oh yeah, thanks for reminding me of this shitty argument as well. 

I guess I should add it to the first post.


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> oh yeah, thanks for reminding me of this shitty argument as well.
> 
> I guess I should add it to the first post.



He has various techniques other than FTG and Edo Tensei and he's considered to be very proficient in ninjutsu according to the Databook.

The only thing Minato has is FTG, but a lot of his techniques just rely on flinging around a bunch of kunai like a ballerina and hope a retard like Raikage falls for it.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Isaiah13000 (May 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> He has various techniques other than FTG and Edo Tensei and he's considered to be very proficient in ninjutsu according to the Databook.
> 
> The only thing Minato has is FTG, but a lot of his techniques just rely on flinging around a bunch of kunai like a ballerina and hope a retard like Raikage falls for it.



This is a prime example of why Tobirama is overrated.


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> This is a prime example of why Tobirama is overrated.



I'm going by feats.

He outperformed KCM Minato, so the idea that Base Minato can beat Tobirama is silly.

Don't like it? That's too bad, I'm strictly using what the Databook states and what the manga displays to support my answer. Being better at FTG does not imply superiority at all.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> He has various techniques other than FTG and Edo Tensei and he's considered to be very proficient in ninjutsu according to the Databook.
> 
> The only thing Minato has is FTG, but a lot of his techniques just rely on flinging around a bunch of kunai like a ballerina and hope a retard like Raikage falls for it.


Save the nonsense. 

Both of them have S/T jutsu. However, Minato has better quantity AND quality.

Tobirama:
- FTG
- FTG Giri
- FTG swap

Minato
- FTG
- FTG level 2
- FTG swap
- S/T barrier
- His long named jutsu

Of course all of them of a better quality than Tobirama.

Then different jutsu/ability
1- Both of them are sensors and can sense with their fingers.
2- Both of them have clones
3- Both of them have the 4 Suns barrier

Both of them have summoning jutsu
1- Tobirama summons ET (Worst than part 1 Oro's ET)
2- Minato summons frogs

Tobirama has Water-style jutsu
- The Water Dragon
- Water Barrier
- The water wave

Minato has sealing jutsu (which are on a much higher level)
- Dead Seal
- 4 telegrams seal
- 8 telegrams seal
- Contract seal
- his 1 handed seal

As Tobirama's jutsu stop at that.

Minato still has
transferring chakra, and SM

I don't see where that having greater versatility came from.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm going by feats.
> 
> He outperformed KCM Minato, so the idea that Base Minato can beat Tobirama is silly.
> 
> Don't like it? That's too bad, I'm strictly using what the Databook states and what the manga displays to support my answer. Being better at FTG does not imply superiority at all.



Well clearly you didn't considering he never outperformed KCM Minato at all and I've been over this discussion with many people various times and they all bring up the same bullshit that can be easily shutdown. His superiority is not strictly based on FTG, though it mostly is, it's based on his overall portrayal in general which indisputably exceeds Tobirama's.


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## ARGUS (May 15, 2016)

Some clowns think he's far below the likes of base minato, SM naruto and Itachi 
Despite feats easily putting him at the same level as these guys. 

There are also some people who just rate him bad cuz of spite. 
These are mostly minatos fans 

So yeah hes actually underrated here
But only by a small amount of people


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Some clowns think he's far below the likes of base minato, SM naruto and Itachi
> Despite feats easily putting him at the same level as these guys.
> 
> There are also some people who just rate him bad cuz of spite.
> ...



You are a clown, ARGUS.

SM Narudo was taking on full (of the half?lol) Kurama, he took on Pain, defeated the 3rd Raikage, and more shit. All of those characters are superior to Kin/Gin

Minato defeating armies, took on both A & B at the same time.

Tobirama's feat of getting his ass kicked by Kin and Gin are sure impressive in comparison.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 15, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Some clowns think he's far below the likes of base minato, SM naruto and Itachi
> Despite feats easily putting him at the same level as these guys.
> 
> There are also some people who just rate him bad cuz of spite.
> ...


Tobirama and Minato are both on the same level though Minato is still above him. Both Minato and Tobirama are above Sage Mode Naruto; and they're both beyond Itachi for sure from an actually objective viewpoint.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

@ARGUS

I wonder what do you think of this




 next one
(The secret story of the strongest tag-team) 

Shouldn't Minato have gotten stomped as Tobirama, since he was fighting an ever stronger team? 
and alone with no "Raikage's help"


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## ~M~ (May 15, 2016)

I will never  buy the tobirama hype. He's below or equal to Sanin battle level and no more.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Tobirama and Minato are both on the same level though Minato is still above him. Both Minato and Tobirama are above Sage Mode Naruto; and they're both beyond Itachi for sure from an actually objective viewpoint.



What makes Tobirama stronger than SM Narudo exactly?


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

~M~ said:


> I will never  buy the tobirama hype. He's below or equal to Sanin battle level and no more.


The manga still makes it clear that he is below Hiruzen. People do not want to take what the manga/author say and still going on with their fanfiction.



Hiruzen was already better than Tobirama since he was in his childhood.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> What makes Tobirama stronger than SM Narudo exactly?


Sage Mode Naruto was only capable of defeating Pain because he had the assistance of Kurama and some prior knowledge. Had it not been for Kurama's rampage, he would've lost and been sealed. He also got blitzed by blind base Madara in the War Arc whilst Tobirama was stated to be the fastest of an era with Hashirama, Madara, and Izuna in it. That alone would put him above Sage Mode Naruto.

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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Sage Mode Naruto was only capable of defeating Pain because he had the assistance of Kurama and some prior knowledge. Had it not been for Kurama's rampage, he would've lost and been sealed. He also got blitzed by blind base Madara in the War Arc whilst Tobirama was stated to be the fastest of an era with Hashirama, Madara, and Izuna in it. That alone would put him above Sage Mode Naruto.



Kurama is part of him. If you will take it away from him, it's only fair to take the ET from Tobirama as well. 

- lol, and getting "blitzed" by Asspulldara is a worst feat that getting killed by Kin/Gin who were trashed by Darui? How exactly? 



> That alone would put him above Sage Mode Naruto.


lol, no it does not. Unless you believe

Darui + Team10 are stronger than Tobirama and all of his 6 students because they did better than Tobirama did.

Also, Asspulldara did dodge Tobirama's attack, no? 
He however couldn't dodge Gaara's attack, does that make Gaara stronger and faster?


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## Ryuzaki (May 15, 2016)

Barring Naruto, he's easily the 3rd most powerful Hokage, ahead of the likes of Hiruzen, Kakashi, Tsunade, that much is certain. He's also well above the sannin, war arc gokage and has demonstrated more intelligence than any of them.



Hussain said:


> Yes, he is overrated.
> 
> People will go as far as denying canon (his battles with Kin/Gin) to over-glorify him. All based on tagging Obito, and of course ignoring the price he had to pay in order to do that (losing half of his body). I think he is around the Sannin-level, but weaker than them overall, *as I think the manga made it apparent well enough that they are (along side Hiruzen) stronger than Tobirama*.


This is a gross underestimation of his power, he's now where near as weak as this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Barring Naruto, he's easily the 3rd most powerful Hokage, ahead of the likes of Hiruzen, Kakashi, Tsunade, that much is certain. He's also well above the sannin, war arc gokage and has demonstrated more intelligence than any of them.
> 
> 
> This is a gross underestimation of his power, he's now where near as weak as this.



How the heck is it underestimation?
You are the one who is overestimating by saying fanfiction claims as he is above Hiruzen and the Sannin 

Where has Tobirama EVER been compared to Hiruzen and the Sannin and came on top? Please enlighten me because what I remember he always was at the bottom when he is compared to them.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Kurama is part of him. If you will take it away from him, it's only fair to take the ET from Tobirama as well.
> 
> - lol, and getting "blitzed" by Asspulldara is a worst feat that getting killed by Kin/Gin who were trashed by Darui? How exactly?
> 
> ...



You aren't getting my point, Naruto did not beat Pain with purely Sage Mode. He beat Pain with Sage Mode and Kurama whilst he lost against Pain with Sage Mode.

Kinkaku and Ginkaku were never trashed by Darui, Darui *only* beat the Gold and Silver Brothers because he had the assistance of Samui, Atsui, Ino-Shika-Cho, Kitsuchi, and dozens of members of the Alliance at various points. Had either Kin and Gin took them all seriously and went V2 immediately they would've trashed Darui and the rest. For all we know, Tobirama and A2 might have dealt with a V2 Kin and Gin working together and using the Sage's treasured tools in tandem. We're also unaware of how strong the Kinkaku Force was but they were likely very strong. Though I do agree that this clearly puts him below Minato, it'd still put him above Sage Mode Naruto.

He dodged Tobirama's attacks after he had acquired Hashirama's Sage Mode to bolster his abilities and Gaara didn't use a physical attack. He took him by surprise with his sand and Madara had no reason to take Gaara or anyone else seriously.


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## Ryuzaki (May 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> How the heck is it underestimation?
> You are the one who is overestimating by saying fanfiction claims as he is above Hiruzen and the Sannin
> 
> Where has Tobirama EVER been compared to Hiruzen and the Sannin and came on top? Please enlighten me because what I remember he always was at the bottom when he is compared to them.


Oh so we're to assume just because he can't use Hiraishin as adeptly as Minato, he's just garbage all around then?

Please save your bullshit for someone else. You don't have to like it, but that's just the way it is.

Hiraishin puts him above Hiruzen's old ass who is still a 3.0 in speed, that's like Part II Sakura level. Tsunade would get decapitated, Jiraiya would lose another arm...Didn't SM Jiraiya get blindsided by Animal Path? Just wondering.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> You aren't getting my point, Naruto did not beat Pain with purely Sage Mode. He beat Pain with Sage Mode and Kurama whilst he lost against Pain with Sage Mode.
> 
> Kinkaku and Ginkaku were never trashed by Darui, Darui *only* beat the Gold and Silver Brothers because he had the assistance of Samui, Atsui, Ino-Shika-Cho, Kitsuchi, and dozens of members of the Alliance at various points. Had either Kin and Gin took them all seriously and went V2 immediately they would've trashed Darui and the rest. For all we know, Tobirama and A2 might have dealt with a V2 Kin and Gin working together and using the Sage's treasured tools in tandem.
> 
> He dodged Tobirama's attacks after he had acquired Hashirama's Sage Mode to bolster his abilities and Gaara didn't use a physical attack. He took him by surprise with his sand and Madara had no reason to take Gaara or anyone else seriously.



- I did not say he beat him. I am saying Narudo gave pain one hell of a fight that Pain himself admitted that Narudo is the toughest opponent he fought against. On the other hand, Tobirama got stomped from weaker opponents, who did not even
acknowledge him. 

- Yes he did, he cut them down several times, and they got regenerated because they are ET. 
 next one
 next one
 next one
 next one

and so on

- No, I am referring to this attack
 next one


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## Kyu (May 15, 2016)

There's like 3 people that think Tobirama moves faster than the likes of Kyuubi Minato, KCM Naruto, and RCM Ay. Is that enough to label him as overrated?

Tobirama is a less mobile Minato with suitons/paper bombs/sub-par zombies instead of fuinjutsu/senjutsu/toads. Second Hokage is more experienced in battle, other than that they're two of the most intelligent ninja konoha has ever produced.

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## Ryuzaki (May 15, 2016)

Apparently some here think that he's below Sannin level, might as well say he'd lose to Hidan at this rate, if we're going to properly underrate him, let's do it in style

Reactions: Like 2


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Oh so we're to assume just because he can't use Hiraishin as adeptly as Minato, he's just garbage all around then?
> 
> Please save your bullshit for someone else. You don't have to like it, but that's just the way it is.
> 
> Hiraishin puts him above Hiruzen's old ass who is still a 3.0 in speed, that's like Part II Sakura level. Tsunade would get decapitated, Jiraiya would lose another arm...Didn't SM Jiraiya get blindsided by Animal Path? Just wondering.



Me who should save my bullshit? 
I think you should go to mirror man. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. 

First comparison between Hiruzen and Tobirama (and the other Hokage really)
 next one
The strongest of all. 

Second comparison


talent surpasses Tobirama since childhood.

Oro and Tobirama?
 next one
Oro has a superior jutsu than Tobirama

and he was able to stop him as well
 next one

And then there is the fact that Hiruzen admitted his telent is less than Oro's
 next one

Oro > Hiruzen > Tobirama in that regard.


So, once again, you are the one who is talking nonsense here. 
I asked you to bring 1 time where Tobirama was compared to them and came on top, and you obviously failed miserably. 



> Hiraishin puts him above Hiruzen's old ass who is still a 3.0 in speed



And FTG makes him faster than Asspulldara, Hashirama, Kin, Gin...etc etc
Did that make him stronger than them? 



> Didn't SM Jiraiya get blindsided by Animal Path? Just wondering.


Don't know what you are referring  to be honest.

But did not Asspulldara sense Tobirama and reacted to him? Just wondering.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> - I did not say he beat him. I am saying Narudo gave pain one hell of a fight that Pain himself admitted that Narudo is the toughest opponent he fought against. On the other hand, Tobirama got stomped from weaker opponents, who did not even
> acknowledge him.



Tobirama was praised and acknowledged by Madara who is superior to Pain in terms of both ability and knowledge. It is true that Pain said that and acknowledged Naruto, but Tobirama was acknowledged by a superior opponent.



> - Yes he did, he cut them down several times, and they got regenerated because they are ET.
> next one
> next one
> next one
> ...



The first one is the only valid one, the second one was due to Kinkaku not knowing how Ranton worked, and the third and fourth ones only happened due to Darui's most used word conveniently changing at the last second which prevented him from being sealed; something that neither Kinkaku or Ginkaku knew would happen. To make this worst, neither of them are in V2, the form that Darui quite literally ran away from and needed everyone's help to deal with.

That was a combination technique done by both Gaara and Shukaku, and Madara was in the air, how exactly was he suppose to dodge?

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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

> [="Isaiah13000, post: 55627185, member: 251681"]Tobirama was praised and acknowledged by Madara who is superior to Pain in terms of both ability and knowledge. It is true that Pain said that and acknowledged Naruto, but Tobirama was acknowledged by a superior opponent.


Praised for his speed, no one denied that his FTG is fast. 
We are talking about in term of battles, and we all know that Tobirama is scared of Asspulldara.
So, no, your comparison makes no sense.

Had Tobirama fought Asspulldara, and that statement came from the battle, then sure. But Asspulldara was not
talking about that.



> The first one is the only valid one, the second one was due to Ginkaku not knowing how Ranton worked, and the third and fourth ones only happened due to Darui's most used word conveniently changing at the last second which prevented him from being sealed; something that neither Kinkaku or Ginkaku knew would happen. To make this worst, neither of them are in V2, the form that Darui quite literally ran away from and needed everyone's help to deal with.


The fuck? How not knowing how Ranton work is Darui's problem exactly? lol
Are you saying he should have given him a lecture on his abilities before they battle?

And I am not sure how the other line change the fact that it did happen exactly! It remains unchanged that
Darui did slash them down on all of those examples.

It does not matter. Kakuzu said that Kin does not use V2 unless Gin is out. So, chances are, it was not used
against Tobirama either.



> That was a combination technique done by both Gaara and Shukaku, and Madara was in the air, how exactly was he suppose to dodge?



Did not Sasuke dodge B's attack on the air?


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## Matty (May 15, 2016)

I don't see why it is a stretch to say Tobirama is on the level of Sannin. Especially Oro and SM Jiraiya...

Oro took his technique and perfected it and can counter hiraishin by burrowing or oral rebirth. He may be smart but beating Izuna doesn't equate to him being on par with Minato

The fact people even think he is close to Minato is a joke. Minato is more versatile, better with FTG, is faster and was a better Hokage


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

Matty said:


> I don't see why it is a stretch to say Tobirama is on the level of Sannin. Especially Oro and SM Jiraiya...


Because People disgustingly underestimate them, that's why. 
I am not even sure if those people read the manga to be honest. 

And they do that because of some circumstances, that Tobirama himself wouldn't have done much better if at all.

Like people shits on Tsunade because she was busy protecting the villagers, and couldn't take on pain. I would love to see Tobirama saving everyone had he been in her place when he couldn't even teleport his 6 students.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Praised for his speed, no one denied that his FTG is fast.
> We are talking about in term of battles, and we all know that Tobirama is scared of Asspulldara.
> So, no, your comparison makes no sense.
> 
> ...



Madara hailed Tobirama not only for his speed but his ability in general by stating that there is a "gulf between our skills *now*". 




> The fuck? How not knowing how Ranton work is Darui's problem exactly? lol
> Are you saying he should have given him a lecture on his abilities before they battle?
> 
> And I am not sure how the other line change the fact that it did happen exactly! It remains unchanged that
> ...



The thing is, Darui had time to figure out the tools worked due to what happened with Samui and Atsui. So he obtained some knowledge on his opponent whilst Kin and Gin had zero. Darui would've never been able to obtain any knowledge had he fought them alone at the beginning and would've been murked. 

Yes, but the circumstances of how it happened matters too. 

If that was the case, then the only time they must have used it is when they died. Which doesn't make sense, Kakuzu was likely just implying that Kin transformed because he was angry.






> Did not Sasuke dodge B's attack on the air?



I do not remember.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

> [="Isaiah13000, post: 55627227, member: 251681"]Madara hailed Tobirama not only for his speed but his ability in general by stating that there is a "gulf between our skills *now*".


And? The different in power is greater now. That does not mean Tobirama was a match to him.
Asspulldara stated that only Hashirama can match him during their time
Madara hailed Tobirama not only for his speed but his ability in general by stating that there is a "gulf between our skills *now*".

Dan also stated the same thing

and it was stated directly that Tobirama is scared of Asspulldara
when Oro was talking to him about Asspulldara. 




> The thing is, Darui had time to figure out the tools worked due to what happened with Samui and Atsui. So he obtained some knowledge on his opponent whilst Kin and Gin had zero. Darui would've never been able to obtain any knowledge had he fought them alone at the beginning and would've been murked.


And Tobirama who fought them before did not have time even tho he was with the Raikage? 
Remember the first time Tobirama did not die (but almost), it was the second time he got killed. And I would
expect the Raikage to know about those tools. 



> Yes, but the circumstances of how it happened matters too.


The circumstances here were not unfair. It's part of the battle. 



> If that was the case, then the only time they must have used it is when they died. Which doesn't make sense, Kakuzu was likely just implying that Kin transformed because he was angry.


Not really. Gin can be hurt badly or defeated, but not necessarily killed. However, we know that was not the case because it was Gin who stated that they "fucking floored the 2nd Hokage" 






> I do not remember.


It was when B said that Sasuke is the first one to dodge his attack after his brother. I don't know the chapter exact number tho.


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## ~M~ (May 15, 2016)

It's almost like you haven't read the manga if it isn't clear to you Minato in the authors mind is only behind hashirama


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## Isaiah13000 (May 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> And? The different in power is greater now. That does not mean Tobirama was a match to him.
> Asspulldara stated that only Hashirama can match him during their time
> Madara hailed Tobirama not only for his speed but his ability in general by stating that there is a "gulf between our skills *now*".
> 
> ...



I know Hashirama is the only one who could defeat Madara, this is obvious, but that is mostly in reference to EMS Madara. Itachi stated that MS Madara and Izuna were roughly equals and Tobirama soloed Izuna by himself meaning that his power was likely close to that of Madara's at the time which is why Madara felt the need to mention the current gap. Either way, Tobirama receiving praise of his abilities from Madara Uchiha is greater than Sage Mode Naruto receiving praise from Pain no matter which way you cut it. It being in reference to speed doesn't matter because most of Minato's power and praise comes from his speed yet we don't use that against him do we?





> And Tobirama who fought them before did not have time even tho he was with the Raikage?
> Remember the first time Tobirama did not die (but almost), it was the second time he got killed. And I would
> expect the Raikage to know about those tools.



That is... a fairly good point. I concede my point about knowledge being a vital factor in Tobirama and A2's case.




> The circumstances here were not unfair. It's part of the battle.
> 
> 
> Not really. Gin can be hurt badly or defeated, but not necessarily killed. However, we know that was not the case because it was Gin who stated that they "fucking floored the 2nd Hokage"



When did they say this?







> It was when B said that Sasuke is the first one to dodge his attack after his brother. I don't know the chapter exact number tho.


Either way, my point that Madara wasn't taking them seriously still stands.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2016)

So much, wrong. I will reply to this, and then I will have to leave. 

First of all, itachi's story is bullshit as all of it was proven wrong. However, even then, he did not say that "they were equal"

And even IF we go with that wrong translation, Izuna would be equal to MS Asspulldara. There is no way in hell that he is going to
be equal to EMS Asspulldara when asspulldara only got EMS after Izuna's death. Unless you are saying that MS Izuna was far stronger
than Asspulldara that asspulldara couldn't reach his level until he gained EMS. Which is obviously nonsense.



> It being in reference to speed doesn't matter because most of Minato's power and praise comes from his speed yet we don't use that against him do we?


No it isn't no matter how much you would love it to be. Otherwise, we can say that Jiraiya is far stronger than all of those because he gained praise from JJ Obito who is stronger than Asspulldara.

But we all know that it is not meant to be that Jiraiya is actually stronger than JJ Obito. lol



> Minato's power and praise comes from his speed yet we don't use that against him do we?


Except Minato actually wins the battles. Tobirama gets his ass kicked.

Against Hiruzen's clone? He got defeated
Against Asspulldara? He got defeated
Against Kin/Gin 1st round? He got defeated
Against Kin/Gin 2nd round? He got defeated
Against Obito? He got defeated (only being ET saved him)

He only won against the highly irrelevant Izuna. 



> When did they say this?



It's takl's translation

Ginkaku: its sucks...that we, who fucking floored the 2nd hokage are under his justu...dont ...

I am not used to this update in term of searching yet, so I can't really find the thread and link for you. 

Edit:


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## Isaiah13000 (May 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> So much, wrong. I will reply to this, and then I will have to leave.
> 
> First of all, itachi's story is bullshit as all of it was proven wrong. However, even then, he did not say that "they were equal"
> 
> ...



 I was clearly referring to MS Madara, and the EMS doesn't make you *that* much stronger than before. Which would mean that even though Madara is superior he isn't superior by a drastic margin. 




> No it isn't no matter how much you would love it to be. Otherwise, we can say that Jiraiya is far stronger than all of those because he gained praise from JJ Obito who is stronger than Asspulldara.
> 
> But we all know that it is not meant to be that Jiraiya is actually stronger than JJ Obito. lol



Juubito never fought Jiraiya and I don't recall him praising him in recognition of his abilities, so there is a main and clear difference.




> Except Minato actually wins the battles. Tobirama gets his ass kicked.
> 
> Against Hiruzen's clone? He got defeated
> Against Asspulldara? He got defeated
> ...



This is true, I can't deny this. 




> It's takl's translation
> 
> Ginkaku: its sucks...that we, who fucking floored the 2nd hokage are under his justu...dont ...
> 
> I am not used to this update in term of searching yet, so I can't really find the thread and link for you.



In the end, in-case you've forgotten, was not to say that Tobirama was on par or beyond Minato. Rather that Tobirama was above Sage Mode Naruto which I don't know why you find that so hard to believe.


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Well clearly you didn't considering he never outperformed KCM Minato at all and I've been over this discussion with many people various times and they all bring up the same bullshit that can be easily shutdown. His superiority is not strictly based on FTG, though it mostly is, it's based on his overall portrayal in general which indisputably exceeds Tobirama's.



He tagged Juubito multiples times before he was bisected, his clone quickly flickered to KCM Minato and grabbed his TSB before KCM Minato even could, warped to Juubito and easily tagged him with a TSB and clones are slower than the original. What did KCM Minato do in the fight? Right, he got his arm sliced off and got tagged by a TSB. When he did attempt to take control over the battle-field with multiple Kunai, he still ultimately failed which is what the Databook wants us to believe. You can argue that Tobirama got bisected, but I would then argue that Minato performed worse with Kyuubi Enhancements as he would've gotten his entire body blown off because of his stupidity. 

His superiority is strictly based on FTG. Tobirama has superior movement speed, reactions, greater ninjutsu versatility, and a huge sensory advantage. What does Minato have? A faster Shunshin (possibly) which Tobirama can react to and FTG which is mitigated with Tobirama's battle experience and sensory advantage?

Let's not play this game. Tobirama is above Base Minato, plain and simple.


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Some clowns think he's far below the likes of base minato, SM naruto and Itachi
> Despite feats easily putting him at the same level as these guys.
> 
> There are also some people who just rate him bad cuz of spite.
> ...


 
 Well, Hussain is a clown, so he fits that description quite nicely.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2016)

Kyu said:


> There's like 3 people that think Tobirama moves faster than the likes of Kyuubi Minato, KCM Naruto, and RCM Ay. Is that enough to label him as overrated?



 In overall strike speed and reactions, yes, he's superior to all of them and that's not surprising given that he could react to Juubito's Shunshin while KCM Minato, EMS Sasuke, and KCM Naruto were all dumbfounded about what was going on despite the fact that they had an outside perspective and thus, should've detected it sooner.

 In terms of Shunshin, he's not as fast, but that's irrelevant against Tobirama given his reflexes.


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## ARGUS (May 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> You are a clown, ARGUS.


The irony 


> SM Narudo was taking on full (of the half?lol) Kurama,


Let's just conveniently leave the fact that naruto had to resort to his seal and help of kushina to even remotely combat him

A Normal fight would result in flash TBB turning him to dust

SM naruto being on par with Kyuubi is as stupid as saying that he is on par with BM naruto



> he took on Pain,


No he didn't.
Once deva rejuvenated he got stomped
Again. A full front fight result in Pein turning him to paste

Hell despite all his lop sided conditions he still lost


> defeated the 3rd Raikage,


Perhaps the only fight he won.
But then again. Tobirama can replicate his feat 100 times easier



> and more shit. All of those characters are superior to Kin/Gin


Proves nothing
Since Tobirmaa outshined a far superior KCM naruto



> Minato defeating armies, took on both A & B at the same time.


Took on an army of fodders
Hebi Sasuke did that to 1000 men

And minato never combatted a full power bee and Ay at the Same time

Fighting a tentacle young inexperienced bee who countered his FTG blitz and dodging Ays blitz doesn't mean that he can beat both

Tobirmaa reacted to Juubito
Juubitos speed >>>> Ays

So Tobirama can do the same that minato did



> Tobirama's feat of getting his ass kicked by Kin and Gin are sure impressive in comparison.



We don't even know the circumstances of that battle. It could very well be a coup

Either way the whole point of that fight was to show that legends are exaggerated for something that they were thought to have done

so No.
Tobirama > SM naruto. Dodges everything in his Arsenal and blitzes him no diff

Tobirma > Base Minato. Much more reflexive and has far superior Striking speed. Can do everything in FTG that minato can do bar S/T barrier which holds no factor in their battle.
He reacts before and tags him much easier than how he did to Juubito





Isaiah13000 said:


> Tobirama and Minato are both on the same level though Minato is still above him. Both Minato and Tobirama are above Sage Mode Naruto; and they're both beyond Itachi for sure from an actually objective viewpoint.



Yeah they are on the same level since their entire Arsenal is reliant on FTG.
Tobirama is more reflexive whereas minato has faster shunshin

If I were to rate them it'll be

Edo Minato >>> Edo Tobirama = Edo Itachi > Base Minato > SM naruto


Hussain said:


> @ARGUS
> 
> I wonder what do you think of this
> 
> ...


Already addressed to this BS.
Doesn't matter anyway since Tobirmaa canonically outshined KCM minato and KCM naruto.


Saying otherwise would be like saying that
Base Minato >>> Kin/Gin > Tobirama > KCM minato
ck

Hussains amazing logic

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Gunstarvillain (May 15, 2016)

I definitely see tobirama as a technical genius in ninjutsu sure, planning and prepping sure why not, decent hype, punks his brother and his hatred for uchiha is only rivaled by Danzo and anti uchiha forum members. 

Clearly he is underrated. Most of his genuinely great feats are creating edo, keeping his brother's promise and helping to father in a systematic government "none are truly perfect", creating ftg, had a hand in how 3rd came up as hokage. 
And I know I'm not the only person who wished we got more minato tobirama sync


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## Kyu (May 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> In overall strike speed and reactions, yes, he's superior to all of them and that's not surprising given that he could react to Juubito's Shunshin while KCM Minato, EMS Sasuke, and KCM Naruto were all dumbfounded about what was going on despite the fact that they had an outside perspective and thus, should've detected it sooner.
> 
> In terms of Shunshin, he's not as fast, but that's irrelevant against Tobirama given his reflexes.



...Most shinobi typically use chakra to momentarily enhance their speed(a.k.a shunshin) when striking.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> He tagged Juubito multiples times before he was bisected, his clone quickly flickered to KCM Minato and grabbed his TSB before KCM Minato even could, warped to Juubito and easily tagged him with a TSB and clones are slower than the original. What did KCM Minato do in the fight? Right, he got his arm sliced off and got tagged by a TSB. When he did attempt to take control over the battle-field with multiple Kunai, he still ultimately failed which is what the Databook wants us to believe. You can argue that Tobirama got bisected, but I would then argue that Minato performed worse with Kyuubi Enhancements as he would've gotten his entire body blown off because of his stupidity.
> 
> His superiority is strictly based on FTG. Tobirama has superior movement speed, reactions, greater ninjutsu versatility, and a huge sensory advantage. What does Minato have? A faster Shunshin (possibly) which Tobirama can react to and FTG which is mitigated with Tobirama's battle experience and sensory advantage?
> 
> Let's not play this game. Tobirama is above Base Minato, plain and simple.



That's great, I can see that the constant bullshit continues. But I'm done arguing feats when it comes to Minato and Tobirama since it is clearly extremely subjective. So I'm going to take a more objective viewpoint and flat-out state what the series or rather Kishi was telling us. 

Minato was hailed as prodigy that you only see every once in a generation, he had the highest test scores in the academy ever (Itachi Shinden is the source), and out of all the shinobi sent to find Kushina; Minato was the only one who was able to locate her and dispatch all of the Kumogakure shinobi that had captured her. He was hailed by Jiraiya as  as having the type of talent you only see once a decade, while stating that there hasn't been another genius like him sense.  Flee-on-sight orders were given the instant Iwagakure shinobi saw him on the battlefield. Together, A (The Fourth Raikage) and B (A nigh-perfect Jinchuriki and the "Guardian of Kumo"), who were noted to be Kumo's "Strongest Tag-Team" were unable to defeat Minato despite fighting him multiple times with A coming to believe that he was unsurpassed and Jiraiya (One of the Sannin) believing him to possibly be one of the Children of Prophecy/Savior of the World. He was also believed to be the only one who could stop Orochimaru (who, . It was primarily due to his actions that the Third Shinobi World War ended (Narutopedia mentions this and I've seen the databook scan for this before, shouldn't be hard to find). He saved Konoha and the villagers by managing to defeat Obito (who's prowess was great enough that everyone who encountered him thought he was Madara Uchiha like he said he was), subdue Kurama (with Kushina's help), and then seal him away before dying. When reincarnated, he arrived on the battlefield before any of the Hokage and saved the Alliance's life once by warping away the Juubi's Bijuudama and then by teleporting them all outside of Juubito's barrier (although with help). He also saved Naruto and Sasuke's  lives with Naruto's help, helped them extract Juubito's chakra and put him down, and later came up with a strategy that alongside Kakashi, Gaara, and Lee allowed them to save Eighth Gate Guy's life against Juudara in battle and render Juudara without his main weapons: the Gudoudama (after he learned one of it's weaknesses).

Tobirama was able to end up soloing Izuna Uchiha by himself when Izuna was once stated to be Madara's equal (or at least close) at one point. He received direct praise from Madara Uchiha himself who stated that only after acquiring Hashirama's power on top of his own that there was a large gulf in their abilities; indicating that beforehand there wasn't such a enormous gap. Danzo Shimura remarked that during his time Tobirama was the strongest in the village. Tobirama alongside A2 was able to  *survive*  an  encounter  with the Gold and Silver Brothers. Whilst in the end he died during another encounter against the _*completely featless (since you value feats so much over anything else) *_Kinkaku Force. When reincarnated, he, like the other Hokage (including Minato) created a barrier powerful enough to restrain the Juubi. Later, his efforts alongside Minato, Naruto, and Sasuke were able to stall Juubito until they learned of his weakness in which he capitalized on it with Naruto and landed a surprise attack. 

Honestly, I'm not seeing why this is an argument aside from just your personal bias. It's clear who Kishimoto made out to be the stronger one. Only those who continue to distort text and continue to view things from their own subjective lens will come out with a conclusion that Tobirama is above Konoha's Yellow Flash. If anything, Tobirama is definitely above the Sannin, most Akatsuki members (yes, Itachi too), and most Kage in general but he is *not* on Minato's level or above. I have nothing else left to say in regards to anymore Minato vs. Tobirama arguments.


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2016)

Kyu said:


> ...Most shinobi typically use chakra to momentarily enhance their speed(a.k.a shunshin) when striking.



 Which has no bearing on their reflexes or strike speed.


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That's great, I can see that the constant bullshit continues. But I'm done arguing feats when it comes to Minato and Tobirama since it is clearly extremely subjective. So I'm going to take a more objective viewpoint and flat-out state what the series or rather Kishi was telling us.
> 
> Minato was hailed as prodigy that you only see every once in a generation, he had the highest test scores in the academy ever (Itachi Shinden is the source), and out of all the shinobi sent to find Kushina; Minato was the only one who was able to locate her and dispatch all of the Kumogakure shinobi that had captured her. He was hailed by Jiraiya as  as having the type of talent you only see once a decade, while stating that there hasn't been another genius like him sense.  Flee-on-sight orders were given the instant Iwagakure shinobi saw him on the battlefield. Together, A (The Fourth Raikage) and B (A nigh-perfect Jinchuriki and the "Guardian of Kumo"), who were noted to be Kumo's "Strongest Tag-Team" were unable to defeat Minato despite fighting him multiple times with A coming to believe that he was unsurpassed and Jiraiya (One of the Sannin) believing him to possibly be one of the Children of Prophecy/Savior of the World. He was also believed to be the only one who could stop Orochimaru (who, . It was primarily due to his actions that the Third Shinobi World War ended (Narutopedia mentions this and I've seen the databook scan for this before, shouldn't be hard to find). He saved Konoha and the villagers by managing to defeat Obito (who's prowess was great enough that everyone who encountered him thought he was Madara Uchiha like he said he was), subdue Kurama (with Kushina's help), and then seal him away before dying. When reincarnated, he arrived on the battlefield before any of the Hokage and saved the Alliance's life once by warping away the Juubi's Bijuudama and then by teleporting them all outside of Juubito's barrier (although with help). He also saved Naruto and Sasuke's  lives with Naruto's help, helped them extract Juubito's chakra and put him down, and later came up with a strategy that alongside Kakashi, Gaara, and Lee allowed them to save Eighth Gate Guy's life against Juudara in battle and render Juudara without his main weapons: the Gudoudama (after he learned one of it's weaknesses).
> 
> ...



 I skimmed through some of this and I will address it later, but some of it I see as irrelevant simply because it has no bearing on how strong they were as ninja.


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## Kyu (May 16, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Which has no bearing on their reflexes or strike speed.



Tell me, how does enhanced movement have no bearing on movement?


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## UchihaX28 (May 16, 2016)

Kyu said:


> Tell me, how does enhanced movement have no bearing on movement?



 I'm not referring to movement speed or foot speed. I'm referring to speed when it comes to dodging or striking.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (May 16, 2016)

I guess I will get accused of wanking,but in my eyes and my personal opinion is that Tobirama is a little bit above Minato,and is equal if not slightly above to MS Madara. The only thing pulling Tobirama back is that Kishi failed to show any good Finishing Move or Attack and even his great Suiton Prowess and that is what makes him look weaker than soner,because Kishi didn't show or gave him enough Fire Power. Like Rasengan Chidori,some insane Suiton or anything.

The Lifted Finger and Chakra Surge was supposed to kinda show that Raw Power of Tobirama and Hashirama and to show they are even above Hiruzen and Minato but later Kishi failed to deliver,and didn't develop Tobirama having all Basic Elements plus Yin and Yang,and with his Intelligence and Knowledge and Research and all I could even speculate he could he well versed in Fuin Jutsu too,and some decent Genjutsu too.But of course this is my own personal opinion and fan speculation,people can understand it as they wish,I don't want to be understand wrong.


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## Bonly (May 16, 2016)

Yeah he's kind of over rated to me. Kishi goes out his way through the DB and manga to hype Minato at being better with Hiraishin and faster with Shunshin and some people still dig up their ass to try and say otherwise, like no bro it's canon lol. Then there's the whole losing to Kin+Ginkaku thing which people wanna act like Kishi didn't push in our face a few times and wasn't using his defeat as a hype tool and people wanna say "but but meh feats" to say Tobi wouldn't lose because the feat whore outlook is to strong in them and they have yet to realize that feats are not an end all be all. In general I tend to think people overrate speed and since he's a speedy character his "feats" makes him seem overrated to me as he hasn't done nothing to much that would make me think that some other fast characters couldn't do the same. I usually find him to be on the same tier as people like Itachi,Minato,Pain, etc. like quite a few other people but I differ as I have him near the bottom of the tier with the Sannin whereas some others have him near the top of the tier above the likes of Minato lol

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Kyu (May 16, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm not referring to movement speed or foot speed.



The body flicker technique is essentially fueling the body with chakra to move at a high-speed that can't be reached without it. 

It isn't solely used for traveling. This justu's been applied in battle for quick bursts of accelerated movement several times.



UchihaX28 said:


> I'm referring to speed when it comes to dodging


Exhibit A: Dodging via shunshin.



> or striking.


Exhibit B: Striking via shunshin; Obito confirms its usage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rocky (May 16, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> His superiority is strictly based on FTG [...] which is mitigated with Tobirama's battle experience and sensory advantage.



How, exactly, would Tobirama's experience against Uchiha or ability to determine Minato's clan from his chakra signature help in a fight against Minato?


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## Trojan (May 16, 2016)

> [="Isaiah13000, post: 55627354, member: 251681"]I was clearly referring to MS Madara, and the EMS doesn't make you *that* much stronger than before. Which would mean that even though Madara is superior he isn't superior by a drastic margin


.
Asspulldara gained his PS from EMS, and PS is what makes him as powerful as he is. 




> Juubito never fought Jiraiya and I don't recall him praising him in recognition of his abilities, so there is a main and clear difference.


Exactly, and guess what? Asspulldara never fought Tobirama either. It has always been Hashirama. So, why does that work for Tobirama, but not Jiraiya?  




> In the end, in-case you've forgotten, was not to say that Tobirama was on par or beyond Minato. Rather that Tobirama was above Sage Mode Naruto which I don't know why you find that so hard to believe



Simply because SM Narudo was given a better hype AND a better feat. I don't see how Tobirama is going to beat SM Narudo when Kishi made Narudo face stronger opponents than Tobirama.


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## Itachi san88 (May 16, 2016)

I find Minato much more overrated than Tobirama actually, especially in this forum.

Tobirama is underrated for me, especially when many people say that he lose against Naruto SM or Sasori .-. People who overestimate him are very few.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 2


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## Blazing (May 16, 2016)

tobirama is actually a lil overrated , well , he overrates himself 
that said , no one , and i mean no one , is more overrated than itachi , tho he's a nice character and a great shinobi 

hashirama on the other hand , is shit , he's a shit character and he's overrated


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## Itachi san88 (May 16, 2016)

Blazing said:


> tobirama is actually a lil overrated , well , he overrates himself
> that said , no one , and i mean no one , is more overrated than itachi , tho he's a nice character and a great shinobi
> 
> hashirama on the other hand , is shit , he's a shit character and he's overrated


Welcome back cctr9

Reactions: Like 2


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## Blazing (May 16, 2016)

Itachi san88 said:


> Welcome back cctr9


who ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 16, 2016)

Tobirama is overestimated in some ways and underestimated in others.

Ways he's overestimated:

1) Hiraishin - I often see the claim that he's >= Minato despite the manga and especially DBIV going out of their way to make it clear that Minato is superior to Tobirama in this regard

2) Speed - Speed is just an overrated stat in the NBD in general, and thus characters who are highly speed based tend to be overrated to a certain degree. Luckily for Tobirama, he's actually got a Space-Time Jutsu so a-lot his speed hype is justified, but even still there are a-lot over overestimations of it

3) Edo-Tensei - A-lot of posters like to treat Edo-Tensei as Jutsu that it's users can pull out in any situation and thus will always have Tensei to fight for them, I do not think this is the case, and rather believe it will only be prepped under very specific situations; so I tend to find this aspect of Tobirama's character to be overestimated.

Ways he underestimated:

1) Arsenal - Most posters are feat whores in the NBD, so they treat Tobirama's arsenal as limited, however in reality we probably only saw a small fraction of Tobirama's arsenal. The fact that he lived a long and illustrious life inventing and creating various Jutsu supports this, as does his DBIV chart that shows he had could use all 5 Elements and Yin/Yang release, but we only got to see Suiton from him.

------

I personally place him beneath Minato, but only slightly.


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## Eliyua23 (May 16, 2016)

It depends on where you go , if you think he's stronger than Minato , you're overrating him , if you think he's below the Sannin/Itachi then you're underestimating him 

Hashirama>Minato>Sannin/Itachi/Tobirama sounds about right

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blazing (May 16, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> It depends on where you go , if you think he's stronger than Minato , you're overrating him , if you think he's below the Sannin/Itachi then you're underestimating him
> 
> Hashirama>Minato>Sannin/Itachi/Tobirama sounds about right


Fucking this


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## Isaiah13000 (May 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> .
> Asspulldara gained his PS from EMS, and PS is what makes him as powerful as he is.



He would've still have had V1 - V4 Susanoo beforehand as well as extremely high-level Katon, taijutsu, and bukijutsu skills. If anything it goes like this Hashirama > EMS Madara > MS Madara >= MS Izuna < Tobirama. So if anything, Tobirama would be close to if not possibly even with MS Madara.





> Exactly, and guess what? Asspulldara never fought Tobirama either. It has always been Hashirama. So, why does that work for Tobirama, but not Jiraiya?



What are you talking about? It's true that Hashirama mostly fought Madara and Tobirama mostly fought Izuna but they all still fought together on the same battlefield for most of their lives and would've seen each other's abilities and skills in action. Juubito (and Obito in general) has had zero interaction with Jiraiya. This isn't comparable at all and you know it.






> Simply because SM Narudo was given a better hype AND a better feat. I don't see how Tobirama is going to beat SM Narudo when Kishi made Narudo face stronger opponents than Tobirama.



Sage Mode Naruto had Shadow Clones already pepped beforehand, some prior knowledge, the assistance of all of the Toads/Frogs and still *lost* to the Six Paths of Pain, though he was compared to Jiraiya and Minato before fighting him. Regardless, after seeing Tobirama's performance and praise after being reincartanted putting him below SM Naruto is ridiculous. If a blind Madara could blitz SM Naruto then imagine what Tobirama would do to him since he's even faster than blind Madara.


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## Blazing (May 16, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> If a blind Madara could blitz SM Naruto


it's 2016 people , that wasn't a blitz 
also , pretty sure that pushing pain to his limits , defeating 3rd raikage , fighting the kyuubi , showing better feats and fighting stronger opponets , is much better than getting your ass solo'ed by kin and gin , no ?


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## Kyu (May 16, 2016)

Agreed with Hussain/ccwhatever's dupe on the "blitz" thing. A speedblitz means you nailed someone before they have the opportunity to react; Naruto put his arms up to block, minimizing damage received from his attacker.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 16, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I skimmed through some of this and I will address it later, but some of it I see as irrelevant simply because it has no bearing on how strong they were as ninja.



 



Blazing said:


> it's 2016 people , that wasn't a blitz
> also , pretty sure that pushing pain to his limits , defeating 3rd raikage , fighting the kyuubi , showing better feats and fighting stronger opponets , is much better than getting your ass solo'ed by kin and gin , no ?



Naruto only has a longer list of better feats because he's been around way longer than Tobirama has. This is why you have to include hype more than feats because a large amount of Naruto characters have insufficient amounts of on-panel/-on-screen time to determine everything based on feats. Tobirama's hype was superior to that of Sage Mode Naruto's for sure which is why he's above him.



Kyu said:


> Agreed with Hussain/ccwhatever's dupe on the "blitz" thing. A speedblitz means you nailed someone before they have the opportunity to react; Naruto put his arms up to block, minimizing damage received from his attacker.



Managing to put your arms up before being smacked aside like trash from an opponent who wasn't even focusing on you might as well count as a blitz. He very clearly could not mount much of an assault whatsoever and was very clearly outclassed.


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## Klue (May 16, 2016)

He created Edo Tensei, Hiraishin, and Kage Bunshin.

How the fuck is he overrated?




ImSerious said:


> I believe Tobirama is around Minato's level



About 1-2 steps behind. 

In speed of course.



ImSerious said:


> far above the sannin and *gokages*


 

Received an answer to my own question in the same post.
ck



ImSerious said:


> But I think i'm in the minorty when it comes to him.


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## Blazing (May 16, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Naruto only has a longer list of better feats because he's been around way longer than Tobirama has. This is why you have to include hype more than feats because a large amount of Naruto characters have insufficient amounts of on-panel/-on-screen time to determine everything based on feats. Tobirama's hype was superior to that of Sage Mode Naruto's for sure which is why he's above him.


yet with all of tobirama's hype , he got his ass solo'ed by kin and gin , two people who SM naruto dwarfs in both hype and feats
he got killed even when he had the raikage + several other jounin as back up
and that's not all , kin and gin went to far by saying '' we fucking floored him '' 
isn't hiruzen's hype greater than hashirama's ? then why did you put hashirama above him ? hm 
if naruto displayed better feats , then naruto has got better feats


Isaiah13000 said:


> Managing to put your arms up before being smacked aside like trash from an opponent who wasn't even focusing on you might as well count as a blitz. He very clearly could not mount much of an assault whatsoever and was very clearly outclassed.


no pal , it wasn't a blitz , no matter how much you want to force it , it's not a blitz 
a blitz is when you hit your opponet before he can even have the chance to react
in this case , naruto reacted both physicaly and mentaly 
the same thing happened with edo madara when he blocked V1 A , the amount of wanking was beyoooooooooooond imagination , and people went even further by saying madara blocked V2 A when A clearly stated that it wasn't his max speed
do you see people saying '' OMG , madara got blitzed '' because he got thrown aside ? 

EDIT : i checked you tier list , there's no sign for hiruzen ck


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## Kyu (May 16, 2016)

> Managing to put your arms up before being smacked aside like trash from an opponent who wasn't even focusing on you might as well count as a blitz. He very clearly could not mount much of an assault whatsoever and was very clearly outclassed.



That ain't how it works.

Getting smacked to the ground before you can defend yourself = speedblitzed

Blocking the hit, then the force knocks you off your feat = successfully reacting

Makes no logical sense for Madara to be using less than his full speed given he wanted Hashirama's sennin powers asap; Naruto was an obstacle in his way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (May 16, 2016)

Blazing said:


> yet with all of tobirama's hype , he got his ass solo'ed by kin and gin , two people who SM naruto dwarfs in both hype and feats
> he got killed even when he had the raikage + several other jounin as back up
> and that's not all , kin and gin went to far by saying '' we fucking floored him ''
> isn't hiruzen's hype greater than hashirama's ? then why did you put hashirama above him ? hm
> if naruto displayed better feats , than naruto has got better feats



Hashirama's hype is greater than Hiruzen's because his hype is actually legitimate and Hiruzen's hype was retconned later on. Neither in the late Manga nor Jin no Sho was he put above Hashirama which is why he is below him now. In the translation I've read Kinkaku and Ginkaku never said such a thing though it is true that Kakuzu stated that someone must've taken Ginkaku out for Kinkaku to use V2. This would imply that Kinkaku and Ginkaku were able to nearly killed Tobirama and A2 without even using V2. Though since they would've been alive they would have been stronger than they were when Darui and the Alliance fought them. Though despite that it'd still be pretty bad on Tobirama's part for him to barely survive an encounter with them. But after what we've seen later there is no way Tobirama lost to hose two normally especially with A2 by his side. They must've used V2, it's the only logical explanation.



> no pal , it wasn't a blitz , no matter how much you want to force it , it's not a blitz
> a blitz is when you hit your opponet before he can even have the chance to react
> in this case , naruto reacted both physicaly and mentaly
> the same thing happened with edo madara when he blocked V1 A , the amount of wanking was beyoooooooooooond imagination , and people went even further by saying madara blocked V2 A when A clearly stated that it wasn't his max speed
> ...



Edo Madara blocked V1 A's attack mentally with a Susanoo and was perfectly fine dude, SM Naruto got thrown aside like trash from blind Madara who had just recovered his "past power" according to Hashirama which is a power that Tobirama is well aware and dealt with many times throughout his life with Madara even implying that there wasn't such a large gap between them. Regardless of Tobirama's defeat at the hands of Kin and Gin or his death at the hands of the Kinkaku Force he is very clearly above Sage Mode Naruto if someone weaker than him can beat him easily.



> That ain't how it works.
> 
> Getting smacked to the ground before you can defend yourself = speedblitzed
> 
> ...



Why are we even arguing over something so trivial? Living Tobirama > blind Madara > SM Naruto was established within less than ten chapters. That is the point I'm making here.


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## Blazing (May 16, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Hashirama's hype is greater than Hiruzen's because his hype is actually legitimate and Hiruzen's hype was retconned later on. Neither in the late Manga nor Jin no Sho was he put above Hashirama which is why he is below him now. In the translation I've read Kinkaku and Ginkaku never said such a thing though it is true that Kakuzu stated that someone must've taken Ginkaku out for Kinkaku to use V2. This would imply that Kinkaku and Ginkaku were able to nearly killed Tobirama and A2 without even using V2. Though since they would've been alive they would have been stronger than they were when Darui and the Alliance fought them. Though despite that it'd still be pretty bad on Tobirama's part for him to barely survive an encounter with them. But after what we've seen later there is no way Tobirama lost to hose two normally especially with A2 by his side. They must've used V2, it's the only logical explanation.


here you go , you can thank me later  :
Takl's translation

if u mean the last page, the convo in jp is brilliant. im yet to find a dead-on eng expression for each line in it but roughly it goes like this 

-the 1st panel
Gin Kaku: t's a damn shame... that we are under the jutsu of the second hokage we fucking wiped the floor with...innit, kinkaku? 
-the 2nd
Darui: I'm sorry that you are embarrassed. Kinkaku sama, Ginkaku sama, the 2 of you are famed as 'the two glitters in kumo'.
-the 3rd
Kin kaku:...Ginkaku... look at his left shoulder. The lad is shouldering the 3rd's kaminari (bolt/ thunder)...he can fight some, it seems.
-the 4th panel
Darui: pardon my being impolite to my great seniors but I'll have you add to your shame a bit more... 
that may end up taking the gilt and silver gilt of yours off the gingerbread... 
-the 5th panel
Darui: at a stroke of my Ran-ton! 
This is Daru(dull)-i tho!!

. As it appears from Gin's statement it was a stomp "we fucking wiped the floor with". It's obvious that Tobirama did not give them a challenge or make them respect his power. For example, see how Madara speaks of Hashirama, A/B of Minato, Sasuke of Naruto, Mu of the 2nd Mizukage...etc Or even Kin/Gin of the 3rd Raikage. The case is not the same with Tobirama.

In addition even when it was 2 on 2 (Tobirama and the Raikage), they still got their asses kicked.
He couldn't
deal with Kin/Gin who can't even use the TBB, and according to Kakuzu, probably did not even use that mode
kin and gin aren't even jinchuurikis to begin with 
naruto's feats and portrayal put him above the likes of Tobirama. Naruto showed the ability to fight against characters like Pain, 3rd Raikage, Kurama, and stronger than MS Sasuke...etc. On the other hand, Tobirama is placed below Kin/Gin's level which they really can't do much against SM Naruto




Isaiah13000 said:


> Edo Madara blocked V1 A's attack mentally with a Susanoo and was perfectly fine dude, SM Naruto got thrown aside like trash from blind Madara who had just recovered his "past power" according to Hashirama which is a power that Tobirama is well aware and dealt with many times throughout his life with Madara even implying that there wasn't such a large gap between them. Regardless of Tobirama's defeat at the hands of Kin and Gin or his death at the hands of the Kinkaku Force he is very clearly above Sage Mode Naruto if someone weaker than him can beat him easily.


dear god  
isn't lifting both your arms and blocking the coming attack a mantal and physical reaction ? 
naruto got thrown aside because unlike madara he doesn't have susanoo to defend himself 
no matter how much you want to force this false thing , no , it's not a blitz 

speaking of getting blitzed , when madara got sage mode , he got blitzed by naruto who droped his ass to the ground with one tail of kurama , that's the only blitz that happened between them


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## Isaiah13000 (May 16, 2016)

Blazing said:


> here you go , you can thank me later  :
> Takl's translation
> 
> if u mean the last page, the convo in jp is brilliant. im yet to find a dead-on eng expression for each line in it but roughly it goes like this
> ...



But then this would put Tobirama below SM Naruto, which contradicts his portrayal later. We're forced to simply chalk that up to Kishimoto not thinking everything threw because the Tobirama we saw in the Senju vs Uchiha flashbacks and the one who fought alongside the other Hokage against the Juubi and Juubito would never be able to lose to base Kinkaku and Ginkaku especially with the help of another Kage. That's just completely fucking nonsensical.




> dear god
> isn't lifting both your arms and blocking the coming attack a mantal and physical reaction ?
> naruto got thrown aside because unlike madara he doesn't have susanoo to defend himself
> no matter how much you want to force this false thing , no , it's not a blitz
> ...



Alright fine I'll admit it wasn't a blitz for the sake of the argument, but that doesn't change the fact that'd put base blind Madara (with his *past power*) above Sage Mode Naruto. Whilst a Madara even stronger than that (MS Madara from the past) was apparently only slightly above Tobirama as Madara only remarked that there was _*now a gulf between him and Tobirama which would mean there wasn't one (or rather such a large one) beforehand. *_This is more than enough to say Tobirama > Sage Mode Naruto.


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## Blazing (May 16, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> But then this would put Tobirama below SM Naruto





Isaiah13000 said:


> which contradicts his portrayal later


no , it doesn't 


Isaiah13000 said:


> We're forced to simply chalk that up to Kishimoto not thinking everything threw because the Tobirama we saw in the Senju vs Uchiha flashbacks and the one who fought alongside the other Hokage against the Juubi and Juubito would never be able to lose to base Kinkaku and Ginkaku especially with the help of another Kage. That's just completely fucking nonsensical.


i know it's hard for people to accept this , but it's just the way it is 
see minato for example , he died protecting his kid , after he saved the konohagakure from the nine tails attack , and even then he managed to school tobi/obito's ass , stop the kyuubi , seal half of it inside him and the other half inside naruto 
see hiruzen for example , he died protecting konohagakure from orochimaru's assult , he faught edo tobi and edo hashi , and was able to seal'em , he whooped oro's ass and took off his ability to use ninjutsu 
no one at that time , in konohagakure , could've been able to stop oro other than Sarotobi , except for maybe jiraiya 
tobirama on the other hand , got defeated and killed by kin and gin , the story could'nt make it more abviouse 
do you think kishi would've put SM naruto against the likes of pain rikudou , the kyuubi , the 3rd raikage .....etc etc people far stronger than tobirama , if it wasn't meant to put naruto on a high standards ?
even in feats , SM naruto dominates 
better sesing , better durability , better clones usage , better arsenal , rasengan variants , strenght , stamina , more chakra , better taijutsu 
toads that can use tools , senjutsu , genjutsu ,elements that drawfs tobirama's suiton , taijutsu kenjutsu ....etc etc


Isaiah13000 said:


> Alright fine I'll admit it wasn't a blitz for the sake of the argument, but that doesn't change the fact that'd put base blind Madara (with his *past power*) above Sage Mode Naruto. Whilst a Madara even stronger than that (MS Madara from the past) was apparently only slightly above Tobirama as Madara only remarked that there was _*now a gulf between him and Tobirama which would mean there wasn't one (or rather such a large one) beforehand. *_This is more than enough to say Tobirama > Sage Mode Naruto.


first of all , there's no single panel in the manga that shows tobirama fighting madara when they were alive , except when renni tensei madara destroyed edo tobirama 

second of all , i know madara is above SM naruto , but the logic you used is really bad 
you based that on the fact the madara was able to land a hit on naruto 
by your logic , lee is stronger than madara because he was able to cut him in half with one kick 
or that hebi sasuke is stronger than itachi because he was able to land a hit on him 
so yes madara is above SM naruto 
no , the logic you used to justify this is bad 

now back to tobirama , there's no single panel of alive tobirama taking on madara , it always been 
hashirama / madara
tobirama / izuna
sage mode madara , literally destroyed edo tobirama in seconds , and shoved 6-7 black receivers in his ass , that my friend is far worse than getting kicked aside


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## Isaiah13000 (May 16, 2016)

Blazing said:


> no , it doesn't
> 
> i know it's hard for people to accept this , but it's just the way it is
> see minato for example , he died protecting his kid , after he saved the konohagakure from the nine tails attack , and even then he managed to school tobi/obito's ass , stop the kyuubi , seal half of it inside him and the other half inside naruto
> ...



Tobirama and A2 were defeated by the Gold and Silver Brothers and later Tobirama was killed by the Kinkaku Force. Both of these things were established before we see Tobirama soloing Izuna Uchiha by himself and later going up against the Juubi and Juubito alongside KCM Minato, KCM Naruto, and EMS Sasuke. There is no way that is meant to signify SM Naruto > Tobirama. As I've said before, Naruto lost to Pain in SM, he fought and defeated Kurama on a mental plane which is different than reality whilst Tobirama helped fight the Juubi in reality and later Juubito. That is definitely superior portrayal right there. 




> first of all , there's no single panel in the manga that shows tobirama fighting madara when they were alive , except when renni tensei madara destroyed edo tobirama
> 
> second of all , i know madara is above SM naruto , but the logic you used is really bad
> you based that on the fact the madara was able to land a hit on naruto
> ...



Yang Kurama-enhanced V1 Rock Lee was thrown extremely fast at Edo Madara by BM Naruto which is what allowed him to bisect him in half. That isn't the same as a blind Madara knocking aside SM Naruto easily on his way to restrain Hashirama. Like you said, Madara was in Sage Mode when he did that to Tobirama. He wasn't even in Sage Mode when he knocked SM Naruto aside. You also didn't address Madara's statement to Tobirama at all.


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## Blazing (May 16, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Tobirama and A2 were defeated by the Gold and Silver Brothers and later Tobirama was killed by the Kinkaku Force. Both of these things were established before we see Tobirama soloing Izuna Uchiha by himself and later going up against the Juubi and Juubito alongside KCM Minato, KCM Naruto, and EMS Sasuke. There is no way that is meant to signify SM Naruto > Tobirama. As I've said before, Naruto lost to Pain in SM, he fought and defeated Kurama on a mental plane which is different than reality whilst Tobirama helped fight the Juubi in reality and later Juubito. That is definitely superior portrayal right there.


the thing is , you are using team work feats , to justify the fact that tobirama is above SM naruto
when tobirama was along side with , KCM edo minato , EMS sasuke , KCM naruto , BSM naruto later 

the problem is , tobirama would've been dead in the first place if it wasn't for  :
- his edo tensei body wich made him able to survive juubito blitzing him and destroying half of his body 
- juubito's lack of onymodon or whatever the hell it's called , if juubito did have it when he blitzed tobirama , he would've never been able to regenerate and continue to fight to begin with 

so again edo body says you're welcome 
unfortunately , alive tobirama + help got his ass solo'ed by kin and gin 
tobirama defeating izuna doesn't hold any water since SM naruto was directly stated by the manga to be stronger than MS sasuke , who is a very powerful shinobi and the reincarnation of indra himself 

sage mode naruto has better feats , better chakra , better stamina , better arsenal , better taijutsu , durability , strenght , sensing , summons .....etc etc , and like i said he displayed much better feats 



Isaiah13000 said:


> Yang Kurama-enhanced V1 Rock Lee was thrown extremely fast at Edo Madara by BM Naruto which is what allowed him to bisect him in half. That isn't the same as a blind Madara knocking aside SM Naruto easily on his way to restrain Hashirama. Like you said, Madara was in Sage Mode when he did that to Tobirama. He wasn't even in Sage Mode when he knocked SM Naruto aside. You also didn't address Madara's statement to Tobirama at all.


no , no one threw rock lee , he jumped by himself using might guy's shoulder as a support 
second of all , getting your body cut in half is far worse than just getting knocked aside 
i don't even know what are trying to prove with this , since naruto after that kick was 100 % fine , and he got up and knocked madara's ass with one kurama tail 
so if you are trying to imply that what madara did to SM naruto was a big deal , then sorry , it isn't 
and finally , getting 6-7 black receivers shoved up someone's ass and destroying him completly is far worse 
and it gets even worse when you know that tobirama actually tryed to blindside madara from behind , and what happened ? he got destroyed in CQC


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## Isaiah13000 (May 16, 2016)

Blazing said:


> the thing is , you are using team work feats , to justify the fact that tobirama is above SM naruto
> when tobirama was along side with , KCM edo minato , EMS sasuke , KCM naruto , BSM naruto later
> 
> the problem is , tobirama would've been dead in the first place if it wasn't for  :
> ...



Well a good portion of that is true, your final statements are lacking. Izuna as a whole has had way more hype than MS Sasuke ever did, him simply being the reincarnate of Indra's chakra isn't enough to put him beyond him at that point. Izuna was noted to be possess prodigious talent, be acknowledged by his fellow Uchiha, and to be one of the most powerful Uchiha (Which is tied with the Senju as the strongest clan ever) in history. He obtained the Sharingan at a young age and was believed to be one of the first people to ever awaken the Mangekyo Sharingan. Him and Madara together ended up rising to the top of their clan and taking upon leadership roles as the strongest. Most importantly, he and Madara Uchiha were noted to be equals in every way possible. The only time Madara obviously exceeded Izuna is when he obtained the EMS.  Tobirama being able to evenly fight Izuna his whole life and eventually kill him is an immediate > Sage Mode Naruto (Who like I will say for the last time *lost to Pain even with a lot of assistance, fought Kurama on a mental plane and still needed help to beat him, and only beat A3 with prior knowledge*). 




> no , no one threw rock lee , he jumped by himself using might guy's shoulder as a support
> second of all , getting your body cut in half is far worse than just getting knocked aside
> i don't even know what are trying to prove with this , since naruto after that kick was 100 % fine , and he got up and knocked madara's ass with one kurama tail
> so if you are trying to imply that what madara did to SM naruto was a big deal , then sorry , it isn't
> ...



You keep bringing up irrelevant or flawed examples to try to prove a point. I'm not sure what else I can possibly say to you if you aren't already convinced after all this arguing that Tobirama > Sage Mode Naruto.


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## Android (May 16, 2016)

i'll take it from here 


Isaiah13000 said:


> Well a good portion of that is true, your final statements are lacking. Izuna as a whole has had way more hype than MS Sasuke ever did, him simply being the reincarnate of Indra's chakra isn't enough to put him beyond him at that point. Izuna was noted to be possess prodigious talent, be acknowledged by his fellow Uchiha, and to be one of the most powerful Uchiha (Which is tied with the Senju as the strongest clan ever) in history. He obtained the Sharingan at a young age and was believed to be one of the first people to ever awaken the Mangekyo Sharingan. Him and Madara together ended up rising to the top of their clan and taking upon leadership roles as the strongest. Most importantly, he and Madara Uchiha were noted to be equals in every way possible. The only time Madara obviously exceeded Izuna is when he obtained the EMS. Tobirama being able to evenly fight Izuna his whole life and eventually kill him is an immediate > Sage Mode Naruto (Who like I will say for the last time *lost to Pain even with a lot of assistance, fought Kurama on a mental plane and still needed help to beat him, and only beat A3 with prior knowledge*).


as Blazing already said , tobirama defeating izuna holds no water , sasuke was also a prodigy , and was acknowledged even by his enemies , and was said to surppas uchiha madara in the future 
also , tobirama had many many any battles over the years with him so it's not like it was a walk in the park or something
unlike kin and gin vs tobirama , which was - according to the manga - a horrible stomp  

pain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tobirama , in every way shape , or form 
yet 16 years old SM naruto , when it was his first time ever using SM , pushing pain to his max limits , and destroying his paths before losing to kyuubi control , is far greater than anythinh tobirama ever displayed 
kurama >>>>>> psido jinchuurikis gin and kin 
and yet SM naruto was able to deliver such a beating to him , the fight being in naruto's mind doesn't matter 
otherwise , why would bee tell naruto '' becarful '' '' it's too dangerous '' '' get'em naruto ''
do you believe kishi didn't want the fight to be real just because it happened in naruto's mind ?
no
bee and kushina didn't provide lots of help either , they both stated that they are very weak inside naruto's mind 
hachibi didn't really provide any real help for naruto either , hell he didn't even remember how was he able to hurt the 3rd raikage , naruto had to figure out everything by himself

still , all of this is >>>>>>> getting your ass + another kage + team of jounin solo'ed by kin and gin 


Isaiah13000 said:


> You keep bringing up irrelevant or flawed examples to try to prove a point. I'm not sure what else I can possibly say to you if you aren't already convinced after all this arguing that Tobirama > Sage Mode Naruto.


so you concede , very well then


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## Hasan (May 17, 2016)

I think Kishimoto's original intention may have been to portray Tobirama as somewhat a watered-down version of Minato, but then, he realized the character could actually be developed as 'more interesting'. It came at an expense of the original conception, but he definitely seemed like he had fun doing it. Case in point, when the Hokage initially arrive at the battlefield, Tobirama mentions that Minato's Hiraishin is faster than his own. 10 chapters later, when he uses it on-screen, there is virtually no difference in speed. . . and only the markings differ. He earns a few moments of his own. . . surprises and outperforms Minato, even takes lead in assault against Obito—

In the end, what separated his Hiraishin from Minato's supposedly advanced version was that he couldn't teleport too many people at a time, while Minato could. . . he even managed to use Minato's marking for his own Hiraishin. On top probably comes Madara's comment that –after everything that transpires– he is supposed to be a lot faster. Tobi-badass-rama—!? You bet.

With that said, I don't think he's overrated. It's just that revealing him to be the inventor of Hiraishin no Jutsu took away from Minato, upsetting a lot of people.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That's great, I can see that the constant bullshit continues. But I'm done arguing feats when it comes to Minato and Tobirama since it is clearly extremely subjective. So I'm going to take a more objective viewpoint and flat-out state what the series or rather Kishi was telling us.



It's only subjective to one's who are in complete denial of his feats.

What I'm conveying to you is exactly what happened. KCM Minato was trashed, Tobirama was not and reacted to attacks that KCM Minato couldn't. Call that "bullshit", but that's exactly what happened, but guys like you are afraid to admit that. It was nothing to do with my fanboyism when I'm an Uchiha fan to begin with, not a Senju fan.



> Minato was hailed as prodigy that you only see every once in a generation, he had the highest test scores in the academy ever (Itachi Shinden is the source), and out of all the shinobi sent to find Kushina; Minato was the only one who was able to locate her and dispatch all of the Kumogakure shinobi that had captured her.



This is great, but Tobirama's also a prodigy. The only reason he wasn't portrayed as such was because he was surrounded by others who were literally prodigies and was overshadowed by Madara and Hashirama. To suggest that Tobirama himself wasn't a prodigy in this sense is plain silly. Tell me one person who could replicate Tobirama's ability to invent many high level Kinjutsu? That's right, there isn't any, so using that as evidence is downright false and ignorant.

Minato was a child and had no bearing on his combat skills, so I don't need to explain why this hype is irrelevant, not to mention that it was merely a moment to signify Minato falling in love with Kushina, nothing more. 



> He was hailed by Jiraiya as  as having the type of talent you only see once a decade, while stating that there hasn't been another genius like him sense.  Flee-on-sight orders were given the instant Iwagakure shinobi saw him on the battlefield. Together, A (The Fourth Raikage) and B (A nigh-perfect Jinchuriki and the "Guardian of Kumo"), who were noted to be Kumo's "Strongest Tag-Team" were unable to defeat Minato despite fighting him multiple times with A coming to believe that he was unsurpassed and Jiraiya (One of the Sannin) believing him to possibly be one of the Children of Prophecy/Savior of the World.



Entire context suggests Raikage meant he was "unsurpassed" in terms of speed which absolutely doesn't compare to Tobirama's hype where he was the fastest man alive despite being surrounded by 2 Transmigrants and the 2 most powerful clans to boot.

Flee-on-sight orders were given to Jonin fodder who couldn't handle themselves in battle. Tobirama would've had that same hype given the fact that he could've easily replicated Minato's feat of warping behind him.



> He was also believed to be the only one who could stop Orochimaru (who, according to Hiruzen's own statement was bursting with tremendous potential and was a natural-born prodigy  whilst Hiruzen himself exhibited more raw talent than Tobirama as a child according to the databook) during the Konoha Crush.



Exhibited more talent in Ninjutsu? Correct.

Even then, Tobirama displayed more talent in other areas, so suggesting that Kid Hiruzen was more talented than Tobirama is absolutely silly. Minato was believed to be the Child of Prophecy as the Elder Frog suggested that one of Jiraiya's pupils would be the Child of Prophecy. It was only the fact that Minato was Jiraiya's pupil that he was believed to be the Child of Prophecy, but he ultimately failed and wasn't worthy of that position.



> It was primarily due to his actions that the Third Shinobi World War ended (Narutopedia mentions this and I've seen the databook scan for this before, shouldn't be hard to find).



And it was Tobirama's actions that tipped the war between the Senju and the Uchiha in their favor as Tobirama killed the 2nd strongest Uchiha within their clan.



> He saved Konoha and the villagers by managing to defeat Obito (who's prowess was great enough that everyone who encountered him thought he was Madara Uchiha like he said he was), subdue Kurama (with Kushina's help), and then seal him away before dying.



False. It wasn't believable that Obito was Madara because of his strength:

according to Hiruzen's own statement was bursting with tremendous potential and was a natural-born prodigy 

It's already been established that he was a watered-down version of Madara's Prime anyways.



> When reincarnated, he arrived on the battlefield before any of the Hokage and saved the Alliance's life once by warping away the Juubi's Bijuudama and then by teleporting them all outside of Juubito's barrier (although with help). He also saved Naruto and Sasuke's  lives with Naruto's help, helped them extract Juubito's chakra and put him down, and later came up with a strategy that alongside Kakashi, Gaara, and Lee allowed them to save Eighth Gate Guy's life against Juudara in battle and render Juudara without his main weapons: the Gudoudama (after he learned one of it's weaknesses).



So that has nothing to do with why Minato is superior to Tobirama at all. I could also list facts on how Sakura was useful in the war and state that she's superior to Tobirama.

 I never stated that Minato was useless during the war, but from a combat perspective, he couldn't do anything against Juubito whereas Tobirama could. 



> Honestly, I'm not seeing why this is an argument aside from just your personal bias. It's clear who Kishimoto made out to be the stronger one. Only those who continue to distort text and continue to view things from their own subjective lens will come out with a conclusion that Tobirama is above Konoha's Yellow Flash. If anything, Tobirama is definitely above the Sannin, most Akatsuki members (yes, Itachi too), and most Kage in general but he is *not* on Minato's level or above. I have nothing else left to say in regards to anymore Minato vs. Tobirama arguments.



No it's not. Your bias is making you think that all of this hype you presented to me is what makes Minato superior which in-fact it doesn't, not even the slightest. You're so fixated with the fact that Tobirama cannot be above Konoha's Yellow Flash that's actually making you look at Tobirama's feats subjectively and downgrade them as a result.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> It's only subjective to one's who are in complete denial of his feats.
> 
> What I'm conveying to you is exactly what happened. KCM Minato was trashed, Tobirama was not and reacted to attacks that KCM Minato couldn't. Call that "bullshit", but that's exactly what happened, but guys like you are afraid to admit that. It was nothing to do with my fanboyism when I'm an Uchiha fan to begin with, not a Senju fan.
> 
> ...



I pretty much already said I was done with Minato vs Tobirama with my last paragraphs. I cannot be assed to waste more time arguing with you when it's clear that you're never to going to concede or admit that you're wrong. I have lost all interest in Minato versus Tobirama arguments and will not comment on them anymore. You're looking way too deep into things and not taking them simply like you should. Kishimoto was clearly not thinking about Tobirama as deeply as you are considering his actual mentioned hype is still vastly inferior to Minato's. You're also reaching and trying to make things Tobirama did (such as slaying Izuna and "tipping the scales" of the Senju and Uchiha war) into making it a bigger accomplishment than it actually is. When you can show me a Manga scan or databook translation highlighting all of Tobirama's amazing accomplishments that can certainly convince most people that Kishi viewed Tobirama higher than he did Minato (which you can't) then I'll concede.  Until then, there is nothing canonically that puts Tobirama above Minato. The entirety of the Manga and databooks all say Minato > Tobirama. That's all there is too it.


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## Bookworm (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> @
> 
> His sensing abilities are always overexaggerated to ridiculous levels because "OMG! he sensed Hashirama's cells!!! That must be the best feats ever!!!!" The same feat that a non-sensor is capable of doing better!! (Oro)
> 
> ...



Does Oro sense the cells though? I don't remember that, not saying it didn't happen, but I don't remember it.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I pretty much already said I was done with Minato vs Tobirama with my last paragraphs. I cannot be assed to waste more time arguing with you when it's clear that you're never to going to concede or admit that you're wrong. I have lost all interest in Minato versus Tobirama arguments and will not comment on them anymore. You're looking way too deep into things and not taking them simply like you should. Kishimoto was clearly not thinking about Tobirama as deeply as you are considering his actual mentioned hype is still vastly inferior to Minato's. You're also reaching and trying to make things Tobirama did (such as slaying Izuna and "tipping the scales" of the Senju and Uchiha war) into making it a bigger accomplishment than it actually is. When you can show me a Manga scan or databook translation highlighting all of Tobirama's amazing accomplishments that can certainly convince most people that Kishi viewed Tobirama higher than he did Minato (which you can't) then I'll concede.  Until then, there is nothing canonically that puts Tobirama above Minato. The entirety of the Manga and databooks all say Minato > Tobirama. That's all there is too it.



That's your problem. You're ultimately taking things at face-value. When you look at it at a deeper level, none of what you said makes Minato seem better than Tobirama. I don't care whether or not Minato received more hype. He had greater screen time which makes sense why he would receive more hype. Tobirama wasn't even fleshed out until Databook 4 whereas Minato was fleshed out since the beginning.

If anything, Minato receiving more hype would suggest that he was respected more than Tobirama which makes sense given the fact that Minato impacted the story more than Tobirama did and had more screen-time. Itachi ultimately received more hype and praise than Nagato, but that doesn't refute the fact that Nagato is superior to Itachi from a combat perspective, so why would this be any different?

Honestly, when I look at both of their Databook 4 entries, Minato's hype doesn't far exceed Tobirama's hype from a combat perspective. If anything, their hype is rather equal as both had positive characteristics only exclusive to them and still highlighted specific things that Tobirama and Minato did that are actually relevant in battle, but when I look at their Databook 4 entries, none of it gives me the implication that Minato was superior to Tobirama.

If you want to use Minato's earlier hype, then that's fine, but I'm simply looking at the big picture and justifying that Minato's accomplishments weren't as impressive as you made them out to be.


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## ARGUS (May 17, 2016)

Not sure where people are getting the whole Minato > Tobirma from
And I can't say that I didn't believe in the same thing before. 

But it's wrong 
The only things where minato was above Tobirmaa was in the versatility of FTG and the usage of it 

In most 1v1 situations that's almost irrelevant . Since both minato and Tobirmaa beat the same people and lose to the same people putting them in the same position overall 

Minato has faster body flicker. 
Tobirama has faster reactions and striking speed. No amount of clown ass bull shit can change the *manga fact* that Tobirama is above minato in those. And that holds more credibility than faster shunshin since 
 -- Tobirama can react and evade with FTG 
 -- Tobirama having faster reactions means he reacts first and faster striking speed means he strikes before minato and tags him

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Android (May 17, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Not sure where people are getting the whole Minato > Tobirma from
> And I can't say that I didn't believe in the same thing before.
> 
> But it's wrong
> ...


and who got '' fucking floored '' by kin and gin twice ???


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> and who got '' fucking floored '' by kin and gin twice ???



 Who destroyed the 2nd strongest Uchiha in his era? I'll let you answer that one.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Who destroyed the 2nd strongest Uchiha in his era? I'll let you answer that one.


The feat less and irrelevant character tho.  

But who destroyed the one who destroyed the 2nd strongest uchiha in his era?


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> The feat less and irrelevant character tho.
> 
> But who destroyed the one who destroyed the 2nd strongest uchiha in his era?



Irrelevant character yet that developed Madara's hatred even further, thus, eventually leading to the battle at the Valley of the End? You have a twisted perception of what's irrelevant.

If Kin and Gin destroyed Tobirama, then that suggests that they're strong, not the other way around. They were Rikudou's Descendants, thus, naturally had powerful chakras, had Kurama's chakra, was hyped up by Yondaime Raikage, had Rikudou's Tools, and were surrounded by 18 other powerful ninja.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Irrelevant character yet that developed Madara's hatred even further, thus, eventually leading to the battle at the Valley of the End? You have a twisted perception of what's irrelevant.
> 
> If Kin and Gin destroyed Tobirama, then that suggests that they're strong, not the other way around. They were Rikudou's Descendants, thus, naturally had powerful chakras, had Kurama's chakra, was hyped up by Yondaime Raikage, had Rikudou's Tools, and were surrounded by 18 other powerful ninja.



- Not sure what the fuck does that have anything to do with anything. That's like saying Rin is super powerful because she is the reason Obito ended up being insane and the worst criminal in history. 

- Yes, but their fight with Darui was not the most impressive thing either.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

Hasan said:


> I think Kishimoto's original intention may have been to portray Tobirama as somewhat a watered-down version of Minato, but then, he realized the character could actually be developed as 'more interesting'. It came at an expense of the original conception, but he definitely seemed like he had fun doing it. Case in point, when the Hokage initially arrive at the battlefield, Tobirama mentions that Minato's Hiraishin is faster than his own. 10 chapters later, when he uses it on-screen, there is virtually no difference in speed. . . and only the markings differ. He earns a few moments of his own. . . surprises and outperforms Minato, even takes lead in assault against Obito—
> 
> In the end, what separated his Hiraishin from Minato's supposedly advanced version was that he couldn't teleport too many people at a time, while Minato could. . . he even managed to use Minato's marking for his own Hiraishin. On top probably comes Madara's comment that –after everything that transpires– he is supposed to be a lot faster. Tobi-badass-rama—!? You bet.
> 
> With that said, I don't think he's overrated. It's just that revealing him to be the inventor of Hiraishin no Jutsu took away from Minato, upsetting a lot of people.



-  Outperforms Minato on what? 
That he took a Gedu-Dama before him? lol
Did Hiruzen outperformed them as well because he saved Narudo first?  

visual things do not determine anything. RM Narudo's avatar looks like his BM Kurama's avatar
That does not mean they are equal.

PS looks the same with EMS Asspulldara, Rinnegan Sasuke, MS Kakashi...etc they are all equal? and the same with FTG. Databook even stated several times that Minato's FTG is superior to tobirama.

- He used Minato's marking because they linked chakra together. Not because he can do it whenever he pleases. 
- No, their speed never changed in their Edo-form.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

Klue said:


> He created Edo Tensei, Hiraishin, and Kage Bunshin.
> 
> How the fuck is he overrated?


Because he created water-down versions of those jutsu. What made those jutsu as great as they are is not Tobirama, it's people who
came after him. However, people give him feats from superior users to him. In addition, to creating their own fan fictional fighting style for him.


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## Klue (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Because he created water-down versions of those jutsu.



WTF did I just read?

He is the originator. 



Hussain said:


> What made those jutsu as great as they are is not Tobirama, it's people who
> came after him.



His jutsu were legendary from the start.

Let's not ignore the fact that he can use them all. His skill set is nasty.



Hussain said:


> However, people give him feats from superior users to him. In addition, to creating their own fan fictional fighting style for him.



NF is shit.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

> [="Klue, post: 55633926, member: 75443"]
> WTF did I just read?
> 
> He is the originator.


And that changes that his jutsu are weaker than people who came after him, how exactly? 



> His jutsu were legendary from the start.
> 
> Let's not ignore the fact that he can use them all. His skill set is nasty.


Must be why no mentioned him with them for the hundreds of chapters, and always remember those other characters
who used it.  



> NF is shit.


Agreed.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> - Not sure what the fuck does that have anything to do with anything. That's like saying Rin is super powerful because she is the reason Obito ended up being insane and the worst criminal in history.



 You stated he was irrelevant which obviously has more to do with being strong. Your example is absolutely horrible as that doesn't refute the fact that Izuna was relevant. FYI, Rin was also relevant to the plot. 

 If you want strength, he was the first Uchiha along with Madara to have awoken the MS during his time, was emphasized to be very skilled in Kenjutsu according to the Databook, and would have more experience using the Mangekyo compared to other Uchiha. That alone would make him the 2nd strongest of the Uchiha Clan which was the strongest clan at that time with unparalleled chakras. Not only did Tobirama best him in battle, but he improved quite a bit since then due to honing his own ninjutsu arsenal for the sake of Konoha.



> - Yes, but their fight with Darui was not the most impressive thing either.



 Isaiah already addressed this that Darui gathered intel with the help of his teammates. He, on his own certainly would not have beaten them and it took Darui along with Chouza and an entire Shinobi Division to best one of them. Besting both of them with Kurama's Chakra and Rikudou's Tools along with 18 other ninja to boot? Yeah, that's actually a very dangerous situation that Tobirama had to face.


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## Ryuzaki (May 17, 2016)

Hussain's argument is filled with snide resentment due to his hate for Tobirama, if it was up to him, he'd rate him lower than Ibiki, but thankfully it isn't.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> And that changes that his jutsu are weaker than people who came after him, how exactly?




 Hiraishin was less "diverse", but Hiraishin is dependent on one's reactions and how it is used and quite frankly, some of Minato's Hiraishin variants were proven to be useless.  With Edo Tensei, Tobirama was arguably better than Orochimaru was at using it as he can supplement his Edo Tensei with Hiraishin or even sacrifice them for massive explosions. I wouldn't necessarily refer to it as a watered down version, but he was definitely inferior to Kabuto's version of ET.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> You stated he was irrelevant which obviously has more to do with being strong. Your example is absolutely horrible as that doesn't refute the fact that Izuna was relevant. FYI, Rin was also relevant to the plot.
> 
> If you want strength, he was the first Uchiha along with Madara to have awoken the MS during his time, was emphasized to be very skilled in Kenjutsu according to the Databook, and would have more experience using the Mangekyo compared to other Uchiha. That alone would make him the 2nd strongest of the Uchiha Clan which was the strongest clan at that time with unparalleled chakras. Not only did Tobirama best him in battle, but he improved quite a bit since then due to honing his own ninjutsu arsenal for the sake of Konoha.
> 
> ...



- nah, he was just a plot device. Either way, it does not change the fact that Tobirama got "floored"

- And Tobirama had the freaking Raikag a long side him.  

- No, they needed that because Kinkaku was an ET, the damage Darui did to him BY HIMSELF was removed because of the ET effect. Otherwise, the battle wouldn't have gone that far to begin with.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Hussain's argument is filled with snide resentment due to his hate for Tobirama, if it was up to him, he'd rate him lower than Ibiki, but thankfully it isn't.


Stop with the drama. You over wank Tobirama, and I have already shut down your wank with Manga evidence. 
I told you to bring ANYTHING to support your wank, but you couldn't and ran away from the debate.

So you really have no right to talk now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Hiraishin was less "diverse", but Hiraishin is dependent on one's reactions and how it is used and quite frankly, some of Minato's Hiraishin variants were proven to be useless.  With Edo Tensei, Tobirama was arguably better than Orochimaru was at using it as he can supplement his Edo Tensei with Hiraishin or even sacrifice them for massive explosions. I wouldn't necessarily refer to it as a watered down version, but he was definitely inferior to Kabuto's version of ET.



The databook stats that Minato made the FTG ITSELF better and took it to another level. 
And no, it's canon that Oro's ET >>>> Tobirama's. 

and the whole ET & FTG is one of the fanfiction things I was talking about.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> - nah, he was just a plot device. Either way, it does not change the fact that Tobirama got "floored"



 So you admit that he's relevant as he actually further develops the plot?



> And Tobirama had the freaking Raikag a long side him.



 And who said Nidaime Raikage was that strong to begin with? 



> - No, they needed that because Kinkaku was an ET, the damage Darui did to him BY HIMSELF was removed because of the ET effect. Otherwise, the battle wouldn't have gone that far to begin with.



 Actually, it wouldn't have mattered because Darui was tagged the moment he initiated a "fatal" blow and he only managed to do so as Kin/Gin never expected him to attack when he still held a hostage. Doesn't refute the fact that once Kinkaku had tapped into Kurama's chakra, he was a far more formidable threat and pressured the entire Shinobi Division despite having Chouza's support as well.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> The databook stats that Minato made the FTG ITSELF better and took it to another level.
> And no, it's canon that Oro's ET >>>> Tobirama's.



 I only vaguely recall Zetsu Orochimaru's ET being better.

 Doesn't refute the fact that Tobirama has the tools to use Edo Tensei better which is supported by the fact that he created Gojo which produces a deadly explosion which revolved around his usage of Edo Tensei.



> and the whole ET & FTG is one of the fanfiction things I was talking about.



 Just like it is for Minato to use Sage Mode in battle, but that doesn't stop people from saying that he'll use Sage Mode now does it?


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> So you admit that he's relevant as he actually further develops the plot?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- barely. lol
- A raikge was chosen to be a Kage because he was weak? 
Also, I did not even talk about power, I am talking about "knowledge" do not tell me he does not know about the tools
that his village collected. 

- Who the fuck cares if they expected that or not? You can't tell me his luck is an unfair advantage! And no, I was not even talking
about that moment. I was talking about the moment when Darui chopped Kinkaku's arm off.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 17, 2016)

@UchihaX28 To be fair, Hussain has proven through Takl's translation and Kakuzu's statement in the Manga that Tobirama and A2 got demolished by base Kinkaku and Ginkaku. As for the Kinkaku Force, I don't believe they have anything to do with Kinkaku and Ginkaku unless I forgot something. Anyway, Tobirama's later performance during the war makes it extremely hard to believe that he had such trouble with those two even though the Manga said he did. The best conclusion that one can come to is that this is no different than Hashirama's mysterious death. Kishimoto simply didn't think through Hashirama and Tobirama's deaths as these two are far too strong to be killed by irrelevant fodder. Cause if you do value their deaths, specifically Tobirama's, he's going to be extremely weak.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I only vaguely recall Zetsu Orochimaru's ET being better.
> 
> Doesn't refute the fact that Tobirama has the tools to use Edo Tensei better which is supported by the fact that he created Gojo which produces a deadly explosion which revolved around his usage of Edo Tensei.
> 
> ...



Well, you recall wrong. Kabuto stated that Oro's ET is superior way before that.
Link removed

- The explosion tags would be performed by characters that extremely weak, and much slower than they already are. 
We don't even know how many ET can Tobirama summon, nor do we know if he can control them and battle at the same time either.

- Actually most people do not even consider SM for Minato at all. lol


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> @UchihaX28 * To be fair, Hussain has proven through Takl's translation and Kakuzu's statement in the Manga that Tobirama and A2 got demolished by base Kinkaku and Ginkaku. * As for the Kinkaku Force, I don't believe they have anything to do with Kinkaku and Ginkaku unless I forgot something. Anyway, Tobirama's later performance during the war makes it extremely hard to believe that he had such trouble with those two even though the Manga said he did. The best conclusion that one can come to is that this is no different than Hashirama's mysterious death. Kishimoto simply didn't think through Hashirama and Tobirama's deaths as these two are far too strong to be killed by irrelevant fodder. Cause if you do value their deaths, specifically Tobirama's, he's going to be extremely weak.



 Then I need the translation.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Well, you recall wrong. Kabuto stated that Oro's ET is superior way before that.
> Link removed



 I stand corrected.



> - The explosion tags would be performed by characters that extremely weak, and much slower than they already are.
> We don't even know how many ET can Tobirama summon, nor do we know if he can control them and battle at the same time either.



 What exactly are implying here? 



> - Actually most people do not even consider SM for Minato at all. lol



 Let's keep it that way.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> @UchihaX28 To be fair, Hussain has proven through Takl's translation and Kakuzu's statement in the Manga that Tobirama and A2 got demolished by base Kinkaku and Ginkaku. As for the Kinkaku Force, I don't believe they have anything to do with Kinkaku and Ginkaku unless I forgot something. Anyway, Tobirama's later performance during the war makes it extremely hard to believe that he had such trouble with those two even though the Manga said he did. The best conclusion that one can come to is that this is no different than Hashirama's mysterious death. Kishimoto simply didn't think through Hashirama and Tobirama's deaths as these two are far too strong to be killed by irrelevant fodder. Cause if you do value their deaths, specifically Tobirama's, he's going to be extremely weak.



Tobirama's feat in the war was also situational and ET was a factor. People do not count that.

For example, in order to wank Tobirama, they will take "Tobirama tagged Obito" but they ignore "Tobirama lost half of his body" This is ET Tobirama, however had he not been an ET, he would have lost right there in 1 second.

Example 2: The Hokages did the barrier. When doing so, Tobirama stated that he is in a sorry state, and his chakra was exhausted already. However, because he is an ET, he got his chakra back much faster.

Had it been living Tobirama, he wouldn't have got his chakra back that fast, and he wouldn't have performed as well either. However, people do not take that in consideration.

It's just like for example how people think so highly of ET itachi and some of them believe he is so much better than living itachi. The reason for that is because they got to see both of them. However, because of the additional effect that ET gives to itachi we don't get to
see him as tired as would normally be.

This is the same with Tobirama, had he been alive, the chakra factors will be also taken in consideration and many other things that he will have to worry about.

Not only with itachi, even Hiruzen for example. He used 5 clones, and 5 elements...etc even tho when he was alive, he was worried about his chakra....


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> What exactly are implying here?



Tobirama is fighting Shinobi. 
Those Shinobis are NOT going to stand there and wait for the ET (who will have slower reaction and speed that his original reaction and speed) to pull off the explosion tags. 

That's why Tobirama needed Hashirama to hold Obito for him because escaping the jutsu is not that hard. In addition, the Databook state that the USER himself can get in the explosion and die. So, if Tobirama was actually fighting, and the fight is within a close range, he puts himself at danger as well. 

See how he completely disappeared after he attacked Obito with it? It's because his body got destroyed as well.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> - barely. lol



 Not barely, he was one of the major aspects that motivated Madara to betray Konoha which kick-started the Moon's Eye Plan.


> - A raikge was chosen to be a Kage because he was weak?
> Also, I did not even talk about power, I am talking about "knowledge" do not tell me he does not know about the tools
> that his village collected.



 And we don't know when these tools were retrieved by the Hidden Cloud. 

 Honestly, I'm going to go with the notion that he had no intel on the tools considering Samui and Darui had information about the tools and still didn't know about their capabilities. 



> - Who the fuck cares if they expected that or not? You can't tell me his luck is an unfair advantage! And no, I was not even talking
> about that moment. I was talking about the moment when Darui chopped Kinkaku's arm off.



 And I'm certain that they didn't expect him to attack because they were holding a hostage.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama's feat in the war was also situational and ET was a factor. People do not count that.
> 
> For example, in order to wank Tobirama, they will take "Tobirama tagged Obito" but they ignore "Tobirama lost half of his body" This is ET Tobirama, however had he not been an ET, he would have lost right there in 1 second.
> 
> ...


I'm aware of this, there is a reason that I do not agree with Tobirama > Minato and already argued that a dozen times before. But that doesn't change the fact that he was still depicted as too strong to have been taken out by base Kin and Gin with the help of another Kage.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Then I need the translation.


-the 1st panel
Gin Kaku: t's a damn shame... that we are under the jutsu of the second hokage we fucking wiped the floor with...innit, kinkaku?
-the 2nd
Darui: I'm sorry that you are embarrassed. Kinkaku sama, Ginkaku sama, the 2 of you are famed as 'the two glitters in kumo'.
-the 3rd
Kin kaku:...Ginkaku... look at his left shoulder. The lad is shouldering the 3rd's kaminari (bolt/ thunder)...he can fight some, it seems.
-the 4th panel
Darui: pardon my being impolite to my great seniors but I'll have you add to your shame a bit more...
that may end up taking the gilt and silver gilt of yours off the gingerbread...
-the 5th panel
Darui: at a stroke of my Ran-ton!
This is Daru(dull)-i tho!!

-----------------


"fucking wiped the floor with" implies a total stomp.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama is fighting Shinobi.
> Those Shinobis are NOT going to stand there and wait for the ET (who will have slower reaction and speed that his original reaction and speed) to pull off the explosion tags.



 It's not the Edo Tensei performing the jutsu, but Tobirama. Why would it be slower?



> * That's why Tobirama needed Hashirama to hold Obito for him because escaping the jutsu is not that hard. * In addition, the Databook state that the USER himself can get in the explosion and die. So, if Tobirama was actually fighting, and the fight is within a close range, he puts himself at danger as well.



 If it's so easy to escape the blast radius, then why is Tobirama in danger when he can easily escape, especially with Hiraishin?



> See how he completely disappeared after he attacked Obito with it? It's because his body got destroyed as well.



 Well yeah, it sacrifices the person who is sacrificed, but Tobirama's own body isn't being sacrificed here. Only the Databook states that the user dies only if his body is being sacrificed, so he likely could escape the blast.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> -the 1st panel
> Gin Kaku: t's a damn shame... that we are under the jutsu of the second hokage we fucking wiped the floor with...innit, kinkaku?
> -the 2nd
> Darui: I'm sorry that you are embarrassed. Kinkaku sama, Ginkaku sama, the 2 of you are famed as 'the two glitters in kumo'.
> ...



 Which doesn't indicate that they weren't using Kurama's Chakra.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

> [="UchihaX28, post: 55634053, member: 237869"]It's not the Edo Tensei performing the jutsu, but Tobirama. Why would it be slower?


The fuck?
Tobirama will only CONTROL the ET, and they will pull those tags from their bodies by their own hands as Tobirama did with obito. 
Just like how Oro is the one who is doing the ET. However, when the Kages did their moves, it was THEIR speed, not Oro's. 



> If it's so easy to escape the blast radius, then why is Tobirama in danger when he can easily escape, especially with Hiraishin?


Because Tobirama will need to pin the opponent down somehow (or makes his ET do it). If not, then he can escape obviously. 
Even Hiruzen was fast enough to get far away from it. 



> Well yeah, it sacrifices the person who is sacrificed, but Tobirama's own body isn't being sacrificed here. Only the Databook states that the user dies only if his body is being sacrificed, so he likely could escape the blast.



Which is why I am telling you if it's a close battle in term of the distance then that will be dangerous for him. The only way this would
work is if he is fighting like Kabuto. Sends his ET where his real body is far away.

Which means the ET & FTG combo is fanfiction because in this way he will have to be there himself, and get himself in a dangerous situation.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Which doesn't indicate that they weren't using Kurama's Chakra.


 

Kinkaku ONLY looks like this when Ginkaku is done for.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Kinkaku ONLY looks like this when Ginkaku is done for.



 Which doesn't tell us about Ginkaku at all.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

You sound sad. 
We haven't even seen Ginkaku use it. 

But anyway, if it makes you happy, feel whatever you want. I am not going to waste my time dealing with those
less-than-smart posts of yours. lol


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> You sound sad.
> We haven't even seen Ginkaku use it.
> 
> But anyway, if it makes you happy, feel whatever you want. I am not going to waste my time dealing with those
> less-than-smart posts of yours. lol



 The meme was an indication that I was joking.

 I'll concede here, but it doesn't necessarily refute the fact that Kin and Gin w/ Rikudou's Tools along with 18 other shinobi isn't a powerful squad.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> The meme was an indication that I was joking.
> 
> I'll concede here, but it doesn't necessarily refute the fact that Kin and Gin w/ Rikudou's Tools along with 18 other shinobi isn't a powerful squad.


- Well, my bad then. 

- I don't even think those 18 other fodders worth mentioning to be honest. 
It will be like when Darui was taken on Kin/Gin and destroying the Zetsu at the same time.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> The fuck?
> Tobirama will only CONTROL the ET, and they will pull those tags from their bodies by their own hands as Tobirama did with obito.
> Just like how Oro is the one who is doing the ET. However, when the Kages did their moves, it was THEIR speed, not Oro's.



 No. The tags are a part of Tobirama's jutsu and so thus, he's manipulating the tags with his own chakra. He's not simply pulling tags one by one. Each explosion tag is summoning other explosion tags which produces a massive explosion instantaneously:

 Link removed

 None of what you're implying is true.



> Because Tobirama will need to pin the opponent down somehow (or makes his ET do it). If not, then he can escape obviously. Even Hiruzen was fast enough to get far away from it.



 So the Edo Tensei blowing up his opponent's body won't kill Tobirama because he can easily escape? All right, concession accepted.

 Hiruzen only got away as Tobirama spent time ensuring that everyone got away. No point in rushing it as Juubito was entangled by Hashirama's Mokuton.



> Which is why I am telling you if it's a close battle in term of the distance then that will be dangerous for him. The only way this would work is if he is fighting like Kabuto. Sends his ET where his real body is far away.



 But wait? Tobirama can easily escape apparently, so why is this an issue?



> Which means the ET & FTG combo is fanfiction because in this way he will have to be there himself, and get himself in a dangerous situation.



 I'm still not seeing how ET + FTG cannot be used in combat when Tobirama can tag his opponent and simply warp Edo Tensei towards the opponent's body.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> - Well, my bad then.
> 
> - I don't even think those 18 other fodders worth mentioning to be honest.
> It will be like when Darui was taken on Kin/Gin and destroying the Zetsu at the same time.



 Doubt it. Kin and Gin gathered a troop with the intention of defeating Nidaime Hokage along with multiple other individuals. I doubt he would bring fodder that Tobirama could kill fairly easily.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

When has any of those side characters been anything but fodders? 

Zetsu also said that the ones Asspulldara collected to ambush Kakashi and Rin were highly skilled Jonin and ANBU
and yet Obito who just obtained his MS trashed all of them without getting a scratch. lol


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## Isaiah13000 (May 18, 2016)

@UchihaX28 and @Hussain Again, can someone provide a Manga scan or databook translation in which it was stated that the Kinkaku Force was made up of Kinkaku, Ginkaku, and 18 others? I don't recall that being stated, the wiki doesn't support that notion either.


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## UchihaX28 (May 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> When has any of those side characters been anything but fodders?
> 
> Zetsu also said that the ones Asspulldara collected to ambush Kakashi and Rin were highly skilled Jonin and ANBU
> and yet Obito who just obtained his MS trashed all of them without getting a scratch. lol



 Because they didn't need to be strong enough to take down a skilled Kage.


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## UchihaX28 (May 18, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> @UchihaX28 and @Hussain Again, can someone provide a Manga scan or databook translation in which it was stated that the Kinkaku Force was made up of Kinkaku, Ginkaku, and 18 others? I don't recall that being stated, the wiki doesn't support that notion either.



 Link removed


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## Isaiah13000 (May 18, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Link removed


I don't recall Kinkaku and Ginkaku being called bounty hunters? I agree that it makes sense. But Seelentau, one of the top administrators on Narutopedia as well a well-known translator both on the wiki and here on this forum doesn't seem to believe that there is any official confirmation that Kinkaku and Ginkaku were on the Kinkaku Force.


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## UchihaX28 (May 18, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I don't recall Kinkaku and Ginkaku being called bounty hunters? I agree that it makes sense. But Seelentau, one of the top administrators on Narutopedia as well a well-known translator both on the wiki and here on this forum doesn't seem to believe that there is any official confirmation that Kinkaku and Ginkaku were on the Kinkaku Force.



 It would make sense given how Kinkaku and Ginkaku did stage a coup to take out Nidaime Hokage.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (May 18, 2016)

As I have said many times,the battle with Kin and Gin is if something,it is something too boost Tobirama prowess than rather making him look weak,because people underestimate them cuz Darui with Alliance help,detailed Info,Shikaku Plan and Ino Shika Cho help plus Atsui and Samui and Rikudou Toola plus the Jar was able to beat them. To me that doesn't make Darui so great or stronger than Tobirama.

If anything we don't know if Kin or Gin was in Kinkaku Force or who and what were those 20 or any details of the Battle or the Ambush with the Raikage.

Too many unknowns on how the battles went,what info each side had on the other and etc. If anything Kin and Gin are a force to be reckoned with,and can beat a lot of people are especially without info about them or the tools. And if they were less cocky and smarter they would have been even stronger.

Basically what I mean is that Kin and Gin fight against Tobirama is testament to his Power not making him look weaker.

But of course this is my opinion only.


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## Hasan (May 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> -  Outperforms Minato on what?
> That he took a Gedu-Dama before him? lol


I am sorry—the look on Minato's face. . . it's like he's still trying to comprehend the act of sheer badassery that Tobirama pulled, and Naruto –naturally– is in fanboy mode. The sky's blue, Hussain.


> Did Hiruzen outperformed them as well because he saved Narudo first?


Yes.

The Shinjuu absorbed all of Minato's chakra (implies inability and incompetence), whilst Tobirama's efforts were insufficient (implies inability). Hiruzen Badass-zen tore through the Shinjuu effortlessly. . . means he outperformed the other two. NF thinking he is fodder-tier has no bearing on what the author thinks of him.



> visual things do not determine anything. RM Narudo's avatar looks like his BM Kurama's avatar
> That does not mean they are equal.
> 
> PS looks the same with EMS Asspulldara, Rinnegan Sasuke, MS Kakashi...etc they are all equal? and the same with FTG. Databook even stated several times that Minato's FTG is superior to tobirama.


It reads: 'improved the mastery'. When the release was still fresh, you quoted that a lot, except highlighted only the improved part—strangely. His Hiraishin isn't any different from Tobirama's, he just uses it better.



> - He used Minato's marking because they linked chakra together. Not because he can do it whenever he pleases.


No, _Tobirama_ linked his Hiraishin with Minato's marking, through unknown means. Obviously once he did, he could –at will– use Minato's markings. Minato had nothing to do with it. 


> - No, their speed never changed in their Edo-form.


Madara gave his account, being an eye-witness of Tobirama's capabilities. He thought Edo Tensei Tobirama's performance was an insult to the _world's fastest man_, who happens to be the *latter's alive-self*.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 18, 2016)

I often struggle in trying to place him on a tier list. On one hand, he's praised by Madara on several occasions for his speed and battle ability, and cited by Danzou as unmatched in battle prowess during his time as Hokage. This places him above the other Kage of his era. But on the other hand, he's left on the brink of death by Kinkaku, who Team 10 and Darui were able to defeat by themselves during the War Arc. He's also (imo) clearly inferior to Minato, whose FTG and Shunshin trumps Tobirama's. This is pretty significant given that FTG and Shunshin are integral parts of his battle style. 

So, above Muu, Gengetsu, and therefore also Onoki, Gaara and any other Mid Kage, but below Minato, who's a top end High Kage. He's around Sannin level.


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## Trojan (May 18, 2016)

> [="Hasan, post: 55634783, member: 75070"]I am sorry—the look on Minato's face. . . it's like he's still trying to comprehend the act of sheer badassery that Tobirama pulled, and Naruto –naturally– is in fanboy mode. The sky's blue, Hussain.


ok? 
Tobirama used a FTG, him being faster that Minato's physical speed with that is expected.
What I am talking about is the whole thing, not a little moment, and then ignoring everything else. Because that's quite dumb.


> Yes.
> 
> The Shinjuu absorbed all of Minato's chakra (implies inability and incompetence), whilst Tobirama's efforts were insufficient (implies inability). Hiruzen Badass-zen tore through the Shinjuu effortlessly. . . means he outperformed the other two. NF thinking he is fodder-tier has no bearing on what the author thinks of him.


Lol, no it did not. What exhausted Minato the most is Teleporting the SA, after that he was the one who gave his kid his chakra. 

And no, your comparisons are just ridiculous. If you want to judge the performance you should compare everything and take the different factors on what's going on to end up with a rational conclusion.

Otherwise, we can have Ino > BM Narudo because she saved Choji before him.
Karin > Hiruzen & 5 Kages because she damaged the Buddha greatly and more than them.
Sakura > Rinnegan Sasuke because she outperformed him against Kaguya.

and so on.


> It reads: 'improved the mastery'. When the release was still fresh, you quoted that a lot, except highlighted only the improved part—strangely. His Hiraishin isn't any different from Tobirama's, he just uses it better.



It reads "improved the mastery" alone? 


> Hiraishin Ni no Dan / Flying Thunder God Level 2
> Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Close-range
> User: Namikaze Minato
> 
> ...






> 飛雷神互瞬回しの術 Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu/
> 
> 
> Ninjutsu
> ...





> Inherited from Master to Disciple
> Secret Story of the Creation of Hiden Ninjutsu
> 
> Tobirama’s developed jutsu were later inherited by a disciple, a user whose name was rising. Namikaze Minato improved the mastery of “Hiraishin no jutsu”, and thus took the nickname “The Yellow Flash”. The excellent jutsu was refined according to the disciple, who evolved it together with the era. The future of “Kagebunshin no jutsu (Shadow Clone Jutsu)” and “Rasengan” is dependent upon Naruto!?



You focused on "improved the mastery" and completely ignored the "refined" and "evolved" 



> No, _Tobirama_ linked his Hiraishin with Minato's marking, through unknown means. Obviously once he did, he could –at will– use Minato's markings. Minato had nothing to do with it.



You went to that chapter, when we have seen Tobirama asking the permission from Minato? 
_Tobirama_ linked his Hiraishin with Minato's marking
"4th LET ME use the connection between you and Naruto's chakra" 
thinking otherwise is not the smartest thing. There is a reason why Tobirama needed Minato to teleport him to his Kunai at first. 




> Madara gave his account, being an eye-witness of Tobirama's capabilities. He thought Edo Tensei Tobirama's performance was an insult to the _world's fastest man_, who happens to be the *latter's alive-self*.


Where did Asspulldara say he is slower than he was? I see a lot of fanfictions...


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## StarWanderer (May 18, 2016)

So, Hussain and CO still use that retard arguement about Tobirama being defeated by Kin/Gin?

Do we know how they beat him? Do we know what they had with them? Do we know anything about that battle?

We know nothing, at all.

Hashirama got killed during a war conflict.

The manga itself states that there was no shinobi on Hashirama's level during the Fourth Shinobi World War, during ET. Aside from his feats, his other hype, you have a manga statement about his power.

So The First Hokage is stronger that KCM Naruto, Sage Mode Kabuto, Rinnegan Obito and other shinobi individually. And that statement hasnt been contradicted by canon, at all. That statement is canon.

But yeah, because Hashirama got killed by some featless shinobi during a war (and we dont know how exactly he died, it's the same case as Tobirama's death) he is a weakling. Right?
Well, whatever. it's Hussain.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Trojan (May 18, 2016)

@


> Do we know how they beat him?


According to @ARGUS he is supposedly died out of fear because we haven't seen them use anything against him.

As for your example, is retarded (as expected of you frankly). When it comes to Tobirama, we know who defeated him, and how many are they, and we know it was a total stomp in their favor by them saying "we fucking wiped the floor with" and we know that they don't even use their Kurama's chakra except when Gin is defeated. And we know Kin and Gin's power as well.

And we know that it was not the only time defeated him. Tobirama and all of his students know that Kin/Gin are stronger than them. So, regardless of the means, it is obvious that Kishi wanted to show those 2 as superior shinobis to Tobirama. You must be really stupid of you couldn't get that.

In Hashirama's case, we don't know anything except he got killed by fodders. Look at the 3rd Raikage, no one take his death of battling 10000 fodders and lasting 3 days as a way to show how "weak" he is, but rather how "strong" even tho he was killed as well.


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## StarWanderer (May 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> @
> 
> According to @ARGUS he is supposedly died out of fear because we haven't seen them use anything against him.
> 
> ...



Maybe they used Kurama's chakra from the start? Maybe they had some artifacts with them in order to defeat Tobirama? Maybe that team consisted of the very best shinobi around?


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## Trojan (May 18, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Maybe they used Kurama's chakra from the start? Maybe they had some artifacts with them in order to defeat Tobirama? Maybe that team consisted of the very best shinobi around?


-We have already addressed when they use Kurama's chakra with manga facts. I am not going to take you assumptions about it 
when we have statements that state otherwise...

- And what of it if they have their freaking tools? 
Stop using pathetic excuses, please. That's like criticizing Tobirama if he used Kunai, explosion tags, ET...etc
just like he can use the tools available to him, they can do the same with their chakra, what's the problem? 

- We already know how Kishi treats those fodders. If Tobirama can't even deal with 18 fodders, then he is even more
pathetic than most people think.


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## StarWanderer (May 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> -We have already addressed when they use Kurama's chakra with manga facts. I am not going to take you assumptions about it
> when we have statements that state otherwise...
> 
> - And what of it if they have their freaking tools?
> ...



We saw Tobirama's performances during the war, we saw how he outperformed KCM Minato, yet you use a battle we know nothing about as an arguement.

Well, they could use Kurama's chakra from the start, there could be the best shinobi alive with Bros, plus tools.

Of course, these are assumptions of mine, but at the same time, you cant use that battle as an arguement, because we dont know about the battle itself, about those shinobi with Kin/Gin and about Kin/Gin's equipement. The battle itself is a mistery.

But one thing can be said - that team would have wiped the f**king floor with base Minato if he was in Tobirama's place.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (May 18, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> We saw Tobirama's performances during the war, we saw how he outperformed KCM Minato, yet you use a battle we know nothing about as an arguement.
> 
> Well, they could use Kurama's chakra from the start, there could be the best shinobi alive with Bros, plus tools.
> 
> ...



- I won't go through that garbage again. You can take it to the garbage can for all I care. 
- I already shut down your rubbish. Kin only uses it when Gis is defeated which did not happen. Man up and move on...
- Yes I can, and I already did. Kishi made it clear that Kin/Gin are far stronger than Tobirama no matter how you look at it. 
- Again, I don't care about your garbage. Minato took on the strongest tag-team on Kumo, even stronger than Kin/Gin

So, again, man up and move one...


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## StarWanderer (May 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> - I won't go through that garbage again. You can take it to the garbage can for all I care.
> - I already shut down your rubbish. Kin only uses it when Gis is defeated which did not happen. Man up and move on...
> - Yes I can, and I already did. Kishi made it clear that Kin/Gin are far stronger than Tobirama no matter how you look at it.
> - Again, I don't care about your garbage. Minato took on the strongest tag-team on Kumo, even stronger than Kin/Gin
> ...



Kin uses it only when Gin is defeated? Proof.

Shut down? Dude, you were not even close. I dealt with you pretty easily in every debate we had so far. Maybe i should give you some advice? Maybe. Re-read the manga and Databooks.

He never made it clear, because:

1. We dont know anything about the battle itself.
2. They could have their tools + some others. Again - the battle itself is a mystery.
3. They had a shinobi team to back them up.

Making clear? I dont thing so.

Stop using that battle as an arguement when we have no knwoledge about it. Well, Killer Bee wasnt killed during the war, but Hashirama was. Killer Bee is stronger than Hashirama? Or maybe Darui is? Or the five kage? Nope.

Do you have anything else to provide? Because all of this sh*t got owned by me earlier, throughout the year i spent here.


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## Trojan (May 18, 2016)

> [="StarWanderer, post: 55635679, member: 246869"]Kin uses it only when Gin is defeated? Proof.


Are you mentally challenged? 
I sincerely believe that your brain has a lot of issues...

I posted that shit several times, or did you just come to the thread and attacked "Hussain & CO" without reading a thing?


> Shut down? Dude, you were not even close. I dealt with you pretty easily in every debate we had so far. Maybe i should give you some advice? Maybe. Re-read the manga and Databooks.



Reread the posts that deals with your garbage again. They are still in the thread.


> He never made it clear, because:
> 
> 1. We dont know anything about the battle itself.
> 2. They could have their tools + some others. Again - the battle itself is a mystery.
> 3. They had a shinobi team to back them up.


Maybe because you are simply too stupid to get. There is really no other explanation. 
otherwise it's stated over and over, and over again.


> Making clear? I dont thing so.
> 
> Stop using that battle as an arguement when we have no knwoledge about it. Well, Killer Bee wasnt killed during the war, but Hashirama was. Killer Bee is stronger than Hashirama? Or maybe Darui is? Or the five kage? Nope.


B was not killed because his opponent did not want to kill him obviously.



> Do you have anything else to provide? Because all of this sh*t got owned by me earlier, throughout the year i spent here.


Proofs only good for someone who actually seeks them. They are useless with trolls who are way too arrogant such as yourself.


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## $Kakashi$ (May 18, 2016)

About the Rikudou ninja tools, they couldn't have been used on Tobirama, right? Or else his soul would have been sealed in the pot.


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## Trojan (May 18, 2016)

$Kakashi$ said:


> About the Rikudou ninja tools, they couldn't have been used on Tobirama, right? Or else his soul would have been sealed in the pot.


Not necessarily. They might have used them against his ET for example. Or that they couldn't hit him with their tools. However, we know for a fact that he was not sealed.


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## StarWanderer (May 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Are you mentally challenged?
> I sincerely believe that your brain has a lot of issues...
> 
> I posted that shit several times, or did you just come to the thread and attacked "Hussain & CO" without reading a thing



I am too lazy to read all the posts in this thread. I am debating with you, i dont care about other posts you made here earlier. So be a good boy - provide a proof where it is said that Kin uses it only and *ONLY* when Gin is defeated.



Hussain said:


> Maybe because you are simply too stupid to get. There is really no other explanation.
> otherwise it's stated over and over, and over again.



Over, over and over again? I dont remember the statements you are talking about. Maybe you'll be a good boy and provide them?



Hussain said:


> Be was not killed because his opponent did not want to kill him obviously.



Darui wasnt killed. Kabuto wasnt killed.  Gai wasnt killed. All of these shinobi are weaker than Hashirama per canon. Before you can provide something, i think i'll provide a proof of my own.






Hussain said:


> Proofs only good for someone who actually seeks them. They are useless with trolls who are way too arrogant such as yourself.



I seek them, i am not arrogant and above all, i base my opinion on canon. And i am rational. I am not wanking on some character, unlike you.


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## StarWanderer (May 18, 2016)

$Kakashi$ said:


> About the Rikudou ninja tools, they couldn't have been used on Tobirama, right? Or else his soul would have been sealed in the pot.





Hussain said:


> Not necessarily. They might have used them against his ET for example. Or that they couldn't hit him with their tools. However, we know for a fact that he was not sealed.



We dont know much about that battle anyway.


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## Trojan (May 18, 2016)

> [="StarWanderer, post: 55635768, member: 246869"]I am too lazy to read all the posts in this thread. I am debating with you, i dont care about other posts you made here earlier. So be a good boy - provide a proof where it is said that Kin uses it only and *ONLY* when Gin is defeated.


If you did not read, then why did you come and attacked us? 
I won't post a thing, they are already posted. 



> Over, over and over again? I dont remember the statements you are talking about. Maybe you'll be a good boy and provide them?


No, go back and read. 

But if you want, you can see
1- Danzo's flashback
2- A's statement and Tsunade 
3- Ginkaku statement
4- The databook pages of Tobirama and Kinkaku and Ginkaku



> Darui wasnt killed. Kabuto wasnt killed.  Gai wasnt killed. All of these shinobi are weaker than Hashirama per canon. Before you can provide something, i think i'll provide a proof of my own.



Already addressed your retarded comparison. 
No one talked about Tobirama being "killed" we are mentioning his death because we know who killed him and their power. It's as simple as that. 




> I seek them, i am not arrogant and above all, i base my opinion on canon. And i am rational.


You need a reality check.


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## StarWanderer (May 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> If you did not read, then why did you come and attacked us?
> I won't post a thing, they are already posted.



Because it's time for me to join in and debate with you. 

I saw that scan with Shikamaru and i dont think that Kishi made it clear Kin/Gin bros are far stronger than Tobirama. Because we dont know how exactly Kin defeated Tobirama. And because of feats Tobirama has shown later.




Hussain said:


> No, go back and read.
> 
> But if you want, you can see
> 1- Danzo's flashback
> ...



It's up to you to provide all of that, not be. I am not the one talking about how overrated tobirama was and i am asking for a proof.

Plus, i am too lazy. Shikamaru's statement is to much for me already. 



Hussain said:


> Already addressed your retarded comparison.
> No one talked about Tobirama being "killed" we are mentioning his death because we know who killed him and their power. It's as simple as that.



We dont know how they killed him. It's the same as saying that some random street gangmember is a better fighter than, lets say, a UFC champion, because he, with his freands, somehow (we dont know how) took out that champ, lol. That's stupid.


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## StarWanderer (May 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> You need a reality check.



What about me shecking your bullsh*t and countering it with ease? Yeah, that sounds a lot better.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 18, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> It would make sense given how Kinkaku and Ginkaku did stage a coup to take out Nidaime Hokage.


 After looking into this further I don't think the Kinkaku Force was them. Kinkaku and Ginkaku made no mention of killing Tobirama after they were reincarnated, in fact, if anything, they were clearly referencing the event in which they nearly killed Tobirama and A2. As the Manga talked about this event and showed us brief glimpses of it as the brothers were introduced. There was no mention of the Kinkaku Force and Tobirama's death at all so that wasn't it. 

There's also the fact that Kinkaku and Ginkaku staged a coup against their own village, why would their own village then, instead of hunt them down and kill them, request their help and give them a whole team to go track down Tobirama and his group and kill them? It makes no sense. The official translations say nothing about Kinkaku and Ginkaku according to Seelentau nor would it make sense for the village to send the two people who just tried to assassinate their own Kage out on a mission to kill Tobirama. Kinkaku and Ginkaku trashed Tobirama and A2 while in their base form with just the Sage's tools with Tobirama barely surviving and later he was killed by twenty completely unknown and featless shinobi. This looks terrible on Tobirama's part, so you either value it and drop Tobirama's standing significantly or you ignore it and only value what he showed later on in the war. Same thing goes for you @StarWanderer


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (May 18, 2016)

Guys no need,I mentioned the situation with Kin and Gin so many times that I actually began to hate the Manga....no need to argue with Hussain ,because to him and others like him only what Minato does and sais is absolute and valid and etc.  I guess just the number and the lack of any info on the Shinobi or if Kin or Gin were there and what they did and use,is an absolute proof that they are weaklings and Tobirama is even weaker srew the fact that Madara threated him as nearly equal in Power and praised him few times ,because Hussain hates Madara too and Hashirama so everything they do and say is pointless and useless,because you know why,because Kishi made them stronger than Minato.

I am fine with all of Minato hype and feats even though he didn't perform as expected in the War and got few asspulls but I still consider him one of the best and coolets based ob feats and hype,and I am fine that even Tobirama admits to be inferior to a degree in FTG to him, but don't expect Hussain to show the same normal sense and respect for characters he obviously hates...

Danzo gave good hype too for Tobirama,and let's not forget how Darui won,and how hard are the Rikudou Tools to be countered without detailed information and combined with Kyubi Mods and Rikudou Jar,and the fact that there is no proof they were present at Tobirama death or were part of the Team...and let's not ignore what is a Plot Hole to me the fact that Tobirama had FTG and didn't escape or teleport his Team out of there.

P.S. I absolute agree with Isaiah and I have addressed the same Issue with Kin/Gin and their battles in my previous Comment and even in few older comments with my old(sadly lost) account,anyone can check them if they want!


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## Skaddix (May 18, 2016)

I don't think losing to Kin and Gin is that bad. You gotta remember we saw most of the legends fighting as Edo ergo without sealing and absolute killing attacks they are way harder to put down.

Most Ninjas cannot get through V2 Shrouds.


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## Ryuzaki (May 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Stop with the drama. You over wank Tobirama, and I have already shut down your wank with Manga evidence.
> I told you to bring ANYTHING to support your wank, but you couldn't and ran away from the debate.
> 
> So you really have no right to talk now.


You haven't done anything your 'evidence' is about as phony as your argument, that's why it's pointless to continue. I don't think I've seen people grasp at straws like you have yet.


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## Android (May 18, 2016)

I smell concession


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## UchihaX28 (May 18, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> After looking into this further I don't think the Kinkaku Force was them. Kinkaku and Ginkaku made no mention of killing Tobirama after they were reincarnated, in fact, if anything, they were clearly referencing the event in which they nearly killed Tobirama and A2. As the Manga talked about this event and showed us brief glimpses of it as the brothers were introduced. There was no mention of the Kinkaku Force and Tobirama's death at all so that wasn't it.
> 
> There's also the fact that Kinkaku and Ginkaku staged a coup against their own village, why would their own village then, instead of hunt them down and kill them, request their help and give them a whole team to go track down Tobirama and his group and kill them? It makes no sense. The official translations say nothing about Kinkaku and Ginkaku according to Seelentau nor would it make sense for the village to send the two people who just tried to assassinate their own Kage out on a mission to kill Tobirama. Kinkaku and Ginkaku trashed Tobirama and A2 while in their base form with just the Sage's tools with Tobirama barely surviving and later he was killed by twenty completely unknown and featless shinobi. This looks terrible on Tobirama's part, so you either value it and drop Tobirama's standing significantly or you ignore it and only value what he showed later on in the war. Same thing goes for you @StarWanderer



I mean, I don't really care all that much of how Tobirama died because we don't know the specifics of the fight. It's as you said that Kishimoto likely didn't care considering he decided to go into depth about things such as Kakuzu's encounter with Hashirama which was very vague in the manga yet didn't care to elaborate on Tobirama's death in the Databook. Instead, Kishimoto writes about what was already conveyed to us in the manga. So essentially, Kishimoto just didn't care.

He clearly wanted to portray him as very powerful as his sensory skills are above Hashirama and are highlighted in the Databook, his ninjutsu prowess are highlighted in the Databook, and he even goes off to tell us that he invented other high level jutsu aside from FTG and Edo Tensei in the Databook as well. Seems clear to me that Kishimoto wanted to tell us that he was strong regardless and his feats most definitely support that.


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## Complete_Ownage (May 18, 2016)

People seriously debating the a meanigless fight that took off panel that we have damn near no details about. The hype from Madara and danzo along with Tobiramas war arc feats place him well beyond anything kin/gin had shown. War arc feats put him easily a tier above them. This only brings up two points:

1) As stated above we have no clue wtf happened off panel - anything is speculation - were they even apart of the squad at that time since they were exiled before that
2) Kin/Gin damn near killed Tobirama during a peace meaning through an act of coup d'etat. Yes a surpise attack by two  pseudo jins weilding rikudou tools and couldn't kill a mere senju
3) Kinkaku alone inflicted massive damage to the first division alone with darui having knowledge/ being fed knowledge
3) The more plausable answer is that they got retconned just like the 10,000 other things or Vice versa
4) Doesn't the databook stating them having the power of the gokages as well with their tools?

Hashirama died to unknown fodder shinobi. Guess he sucks too

To come out alive(barely) against two pseudo jins who are distantly related to rikudo sennin that have access to his legendary tools and damn near wiped out the first division(just one of them) is pretty fn impressive


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## IzayaOrihara (May 19, 2016)

Well first of all, before i get into big discussions, let me just simply answer the question. Is Tobirama overrated? Yes indeed. Why? People think he is Minato's equal (or stronger) and that is simply just not the case.



~M~ said:


> I will never  buy the tobirama hype. He's below or equal to Sanin battle level and no more.


This.

I see him as an equal to (or slightly below) the Sannin. Whether thats underrating, accurate or overrating is for fans to decide. But Base Minato isnt that much above the Sannin so putting Tobirama on Sannin level isnt all too bad for Tobirama-fans.



Complete_Ownage said:


> * The hype from Madara and danzo along with Tobiramas war arc feats place him well beyond anything kin/gin had shown. *_War arc feats put him easily a tier above them_.



@Complete_Ownage you are being seriously unfair to KinGin. So what if what Tobirama showed was better?

Jiraiya's feats against Pein put him above Hanzo, based on what we saw of his abilities, but his portrayal (historic feats + his massive hype from Jiraiya himself) puts him above. Its not KinGin's fault that they got the offpannelling treatment just like Hanzo did (even if he was Rusty when he died, as an Edo, he should have performed better).

So I think you are being very unfair there.

Also, when did Danzo hype Tobirama, may I ask? In fact may I ask for a scan? Might as well bring the Madara scan and any databook info so that all the evidence is on the table.

At the end of the day, even if Tobirama has better feats than KinGin, they still defeated Tobirama and were as a duo, portrayed above him. By your logic, even Base Jiraiya (let alone SM) > Prime Hanzo, because he has better feats, despite basically stating that he at the time would not have been able to defeat Hanzo at his peak, the same one he , Orochimaru and Tsunade fought 30 years ago in Amegakure during the Third Great Shinobi World War.



Hussain said:


> Oro and Tobirama?
> Dokugiri
> Oro has a superior jutsu than Tobirama
> 
> ...


I really dont see the problem with this.

Prime Orochimaru is the guy Hiruzen was referring to. He was healthy and had his arms. That guy in my opinion, along with Byakugo Tsunade and SM Jiraiya, is stronger than Tobirama, just by feats. The databook hype and portrayal only solidifies this, unless people think Kinkaku and Ginkaku (unfair portrayal of feats against Darui or not) could defeat Prime Orochimaru, which i think is absurd. This guy was compared to Base Minato (whom is stronger than Tobirama) on more than one occasion.


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## StarWanderer (May 19, 2016)

The only Sannin Tobirama cant beat without ET is Orochimaru. Other Sannin? He beats either Tsunade, or Jiraya, in a one-on-one combat.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 19, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> The only Sannin Tobirama cant beat without ET is Orochimaru. Other Sannin? He beats either Tsunade, or Jiraya, in a one-on-one combat.


How?

*Jiraiya*
SM Jiraiya can sense too. Tobirama cant counter Gamarinsho if Jiraiya gets in range of him. I wont wank Gamabunta though since the Gojo Kibakufuda explosion outsized War Arc Gamakichi but please, Tobirama was an equal to Izuna, whom in my opinion, cant be any better than Itachi (we can only speculate Izuna had what MS consisted of the time, Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu etc), whom ran away from Jiraiya and said he couldnt beat him. Tobirama doesnt use FTG Kunais like Minato. If he marks Jiraiya, he can drag him into Gamaguchi Shibari. He will have no way out so at best its a draw. Any Suiton floods are soaked up by Yomi Numa. His other Suiton (cant remember the name - the one he cut Shinju Branch with) isnt any different from Fukasaku's. Its a draw at best.

*Tsunade*
Tobirama cant kill her. Katsuyu tanks Gojo Kibakufuda. If you use the FTG argument ill just use my old argument.

You: Tobirama beheads her. He is fast enough to do so and she cant regenerate from a decapitation.

Me: Tobirama is faster than Hashirama and is a better sensor, so should be able to land a decapitation on Hashirama, whom has a regeneration power that is equal to/slightly inferior to Tsunade's Byakugo, so therefore, if Tobirama can beat Tsunade in that way, he should be able to beat Hashirama too in the same way.

At the end of the day, its a battle of attrition. Both have abnormally high chakra reserves as they are both Senju, but Tsunade has her Byakugo reserves, so she trumps in that area too.

*Orochimaru*
Its virtually impossible to put Tobirama above the Sannin when Orochimaru, was more talented than Hiruzen, whom was stronger than Tobirama even when he was Naruto's age. Orochimaru (on two occasions) was also compared to the same Minato that Tobirama is inferior too. And the Sannin are portrayed to be equals, relatively around the same level. If we go by the Sansukumi Orochimaru/Snake > Jiraiya/Toad > Tsunade/Slug > Orochimaru/Snake. I (Orochimaru's biggest fan) genuinely believe that Tsunade has the abilities to defeat Prime Orochimaru (with the exception of ET, which Orochimaru doesn't even need against Tobirama anyway) - in fact, I even once made a thread to argue for it () as well as arguing for it in other threads so I see Tsunade (or any Sannin for that fact) beating Tobirama.

Don't bother with the link. Here you go:


IzayaOrihara said:


> I'm gonna keep this brief. I re-watched/re-read the Sannin fight and then a few of the other battles Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru participated in throughout the series, and came up with a theory that the Sannin's fighting styles are similar to their summons.
> 
> GAMABUNTA AND JIRAIYA
> 
> ...



The second part will be in my next post.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (May 19, 2016)

Jiraya will not have thr chance to get into SM. Tsunade head is easily taken with FTG and Suidanha,or he can slice her in two .
Against Oro Tobirama just need to keep trashing him till he run out of Chakra,due the Snake Tegen being quite Chakra Taxing unlike FTG and with Edo and GKF he beats them even easier.


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## IzayaOrihara (May 19, 2016)

Part 2


IzayaOrihara said:


> *Evaluating the Sannin's battle styles - Part 2*
> 
> 
> So Snake > Frog > Slug > Snake and i'lll leave it at that. I used to think maybe Orochimaru is the strongest but now i look at them as equals. They are relatively around the same ballpark in terms of power (yes, so people need to stop downplaying Tsunade) but its just that Orochimaru has a skill-set which allows him to defeat Jiraiya more often than not while Jiraiya has a skill-set which allows him to defeat Tsunade more often than not and Tsunade has a skill-set which allows her to defeat Orochimaru more often than not. Thats the interpretation i agree the most with. Why?
> ...


Moving swiftly along ....



Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> *Jiraya will not have thr chance to get into SM. Tsunade head is easily taken with FTG and *Suidanha,or he can slice her in two .
> *Against Oro Tobirama just need to keep trashing him *till he run out of Chakra,due the Snake Tegen being quite Chakra Taxing unlike FTG and with Edo and GKF he beats them even easier.



*Tsunade*
You said Tsunade's head is taken with FTG? No. Read my response to @StarWanderer.
*Orochimaru*
Lol "trashing Orochimaru". With what? And give me a scan which suggests Snake Regen is taxing. I already discussed that issue in my Orochimaru vs Itachi Essay. Itachi made those statements about Sasuke when he was using his Sharingan to analyse Sasukes chakra levels. If its taxing for Sasuke doesnt mean it is for Orochimaru. Orochimaru never said it was taxing or showed that it was. Its his jutsu and he is a more skilful user.
_EDIT_: *An extract from my Orochimaru vs Itachi essay which is relevant to why Tobirama cannot beat him. The parts highlighted in red are the bits i'd like you to read. I just posted the whole extract though otherwise it would be confusing and disorganised. Read it all if you want to grasp a better understanding of what I'm trying to say. Ignore it at your own peril.*


> And also look at these these scans:
> Dokugiri
> 
> Itachi said Oral Rebirth was a technique straight from Orochimaru's repertoire, and that it was chakra taxing. What people don't understand is that he made that comment to Sasuke based in a Jutsu he saw Sasuke use, not to Orochimaru based on a Jutsu which he used. It was never implied Oral Rebirth was taxing *for Orochimaru*. Sasuke had to save it for Amaterasu. Orochimaru used it smiled each time. When you use a technique that is taxing (like any MS technique for Sasuke, or Rasenshuriken for Naruto during his assault on Kakuzu), you don't laugh about it. You start panting, and huffing and puffing. Orochimaru did this at the end of the fight, when his body was giving up on him, not because Oral Rebirth takes too much chakra. But because it's something Itachi said (he is God to his fanboys), everyone takes it at face value and just underestimates Orochimaru as a result of it, without even thinking about it first. Itachi said Oral Rebirth was from Orochimaru's repertoire. Hashirama techniques and cells, the Uchiha's Sharingan eyes and Orochimaru's Oral Rebirth obviously become weaker when used by someone the Jutsu is not suited to. The same applies to the Rinnegan. Look at what Nagato did with Rinnegan. Madara, the original host of the eyes, could do more, and for less of a price (in terms of chakra). I mean, Itachi can't fire 1000 fire balls, but what's to say he can't fire 100? Or 50? The Jutsu was never said to take much chakra from him. This logic applies to Oral Rebirth. The sooner people realise this, the better. And for the record, Oral Rebirth is a counter to Amaterasu.
> ...


*Jiraiya*
You say Jiraiya cant get into SM. Funny that. Considering he managed to get into SM against Pain, who is stronger than Tobirama. Pain is around the same level as if not above Base Minato. Jiraiya got into SM against a stronger opponent than Tobirama using Gamaken, a weaker summon than Bunta, whose size was nerfed in Part 2. At his real size, this is how big he is.

And these are the kind of opponents Gamabunta can face.

He can dash this far and jump this high to avoid Tobirama and has better Suitons than what Tobirama spat out.


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## IzayaOrihara (May 19, 2016)

No comeback? Anyone ...

@StarWanderer @Second Hokage Tobirama @Complete_Ownage
Ill wait for those replies ... because it seems like you've all got bark and no bite.


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## Complete_Ownage (May 19, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> you are being seriously unfair to KinGin. So what if what Tobirama showed was better?



Because I will go with current end series feats over anything else. So MANY things have been retconned over the series history and don't hold face anymore.



> Jiraiya's feats against Pein put him above Hanzo, based on what we saw of his abilities, but his portrayal (historic feats + his massive hype from Jiraiya himself) puts him above. Its not KinGin's fault that they got the offpannelling treatment just like Hanzo did (even if he was Rusty when he died, as an Edo, he should have performed better).



Two sides of each story...

Jiraiya even at his peak thought it would be impossible for one man to defeat Hanzo. The man who goes ahead and defeats Hanzo praises Jiraiya as one who could have killed him if it were not for his secrete....omg infinite loop hole....big bang.... black hole


Granted let me just say for the record that I believe Nagato was more "praising" his former master then anything




> Also, when did Danzo hype Tobirama, may I ask? In fact may I ask for a scan? Might as well bring the Madara scan and any databook info so that all the evidence is on the table.



I am currently at work and will have to find the panels when I get home unless someone wants to post them for the time being.



> At the end of the day, even if Tobirama has better feats than KinGin, they still defeated Tobirama and were as a duo, portrayed above him. By your logic, even Base Jiraiya (let alone SM) > Prime Hanzo, because he has better feats, despite basically stating that he at the time would not have been able to defeat Hanzo at his peak, the same one he , Orochimaru and Tsunade fought 30 years ago in Amegakure during the Third Great Shinobi World War.



Just because someone defeats another shinobi does not make them superior to them. In some instances yes(namely 1v1's) however in many battles there are factors that play important roles.

They practically ambushed the second Raikage and Second Hokage during a peace meeting. Just imagine getting attacked by two pseudo jins with rikodou tools when your not expecting it

Now the kinkaku force thing...We do not even know if they were present during this attack as they were exiled at this time. We have no records of what took place off panel or events prior to that but once again they sent an entire group that specializes in killing superior foes to take out Tobirama and co

Yes they wiped the floor with him either through a means of coup d'état during a meeting or with 18 other elite shinobi trained to track down and eliminate stronger foes..sounds like cowards to me

And no kin/gin even in there edo tensei feats were impressive. Kinkaku damn near wiped out the first division alone if not for intel from headquarters


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (May 19, 2016)

I am on my phone so I will just write and hope someone will provide the screens.

Danzo said that there was no greater Shinobi in Konoha than Tobirama when he was going to sacrifice himself.

When Madara pinned down Tobirama,he said to Tobirama that being fate or destiny there is a gap in their power now which suggest in life they were pretty close to equal.

I consider Tobirama stronger than Pain,and Jiraya getting in SM I think is impossible with Tobirama as an opponent.

Tobirama can surprise Tsunade with FTG and behead her or slice her in two like Madara did. She can't touch him.

Against Oro he just has to evade which is easy with FTG and tire him out.

Not to mention Tobirama has Elemental and Arsenal Advantage plus FTG amd GKF amd ET.And from the Sannin only Oro is equal or close to him Intelligence.

Besides Tobirama,Kin and Gin are way underrated too,for people who were assigned to capture the Kyubi,imagine their Power before becoming Pseudo Jins. Later they had all Six Tools plus Kyubi Mode,and they are nearly perfect Combo of Two. For someone to beat them both without Detailed Knowledge on them and their Tools is nearly Impossible if not God Tier,if they were less Cocky and more Careful they would not have beem Sealed. And let's not forget that to Beat them Darui needed the most Detailed information about them and their Tools,a back up from entire decision plus Ino Shika Cho plus Atsui and Samui for more info,plus Shiakaku to make a Plan and plus an Asspull woth Last Minute Word Change(which was ridiculous to me) and even then he needed the most OP Rikudou Tool to finish to Job.

So yeah Kin and Gin are way way stronger than most,and probably can beat any Kage 1 VS 2 bar Hashirama,but still Gokagd can beat them 5 VS 2 ,and still they probably were no part of Kinaku Force and the Plot Hole with Tobirama and FTG still remains which just means Kishi needed a Noble Death for him and rushed things out,which later in the War Backfired.


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## StarWanderer (May 19, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> *Jiraiya*
> SM Jiraiya can sense too. Tobirama cant counter Gamarinsho if Jiraiya gets in range of him. I wont wank Gamabunta though since the Gojo Kibakufuda explosion outsized War Arc Gamakichi but please, Tobirama was an equal to Izuna, whom in my opinion, cant be any better than Itachi (we can only speculate Izuna had what MS consisted of the time, Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu etc), whom ran away from Jiraiya and said he couldnt beat him. Tobirama doesnt use FTG Kunais like Minato. If he marks Jiraiya, he can drag him into Gamaguchi Shibari. He will have no way out so at best its a draw. Any Suiton floods are soaked up by Yomi Numa. His other Suiton (cant remember the name - the one he cut Shinju Branch with) isnt any different from Fukasaku's. Its a draw at best.



It takes time for Jiraya to use Sage Mode. He wont have that time against someone who is faster than KCM Minato and has faster Shunshin than KCM Minato's movements (base Minato is already faster than long-ranged Kamui absorbtion). Tobirama can speedblitz Jiraya. And yes - he uses marked Kunais. His attack on Sage Mode Madara is a good example of that. 



IzayaOrihara said:


> Tobirama cant kill her. Katsuyu tanks Gojo Kibakufuda. If you use the FTG argument ill just use my old argument.
> 
> You: Tobirama beheads her. He is fast enough to do so and she cant regenerate from a decapitation.
> 
> ...



Tobirama can kill her with either Suiton, or kunai. Tsunade doesnt pose a threat to him at all.

As for your realy, realy bad arguement - Hashirama is fast enough to not get blitzed by his brother. Tsunade, however, is not even close to that kind of speed.


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## Veracity (May 19, 2016)

I don't see a problem with Tobirama losing to Kin and Gin. He clearly didn't have Edo prepped, and aside from that, he doesn't have a way to breach their cloaks. As for why he didn't teleport away? The same bullshit applies for him needing to create an opening for his students yet possessing FTG. Kishi just didn't think about it. 

As for his standing... Based on feats and portrayal I'd say Tobirama = Minato> Itachi > Sannin.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## StarWanderer (May 19, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Scans please



[2] [2] [2] [2] [2] [2]

He clearly outperformed KCM Minato during 4SWW.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Nope.
> 
> The same Tsunade that was sliced and diced by Edo Madara's V3 Susanoo, and mokuton, and pierced and slashed by Orochimaru's diamond carving Kusanagi, is not going down to a Kunai that Base Part 1 Naruto blocked from Kabuto with his hand, that cant regenerate and doesnt have chakra enhanced strength. And she is dodging Suiton. If hit cuts or decapitates her, she regenerates. Kishimoto hasnt portrayed Tsunade as the type to go down to a Kunai, quite the opposite actually.



When she can regenerate her whole head, let me know. Because nobody has ever demonstrated that kind of regeneration. Hell, even Juubidara with Hashirama's Sage Mode and Juubi's senjutsu-chakra (senjutsu chakra boosts every ninjutsu shinobi has) almost got killed when half of his torso and arm has been removed. A whole head to regenerate may be even worse than that. 



IzayaOrihara said:


> Thats a baseless excuse to downplay Tsunade. Tobirama is faster than Hashirama. I dont care what you say. Madara reacted to him, but Madara had EMS, Rinnegan, SM Sensing and all sorts of things at the time. In Base, Hashirama is going down to Tobirama's decapitation, unless you start looking at things objectively.
> 
> Tobirama < Sannin. There's just no way around it. They are portrayed as equals and Orochimaru was more talented than Hiruzen, whom is better than Tobirama. The Sannin have higher feats and portrayal. If Tobirama even comes near Tsunade she will elbow him in the face faster than I can come up with an essay to wank Prime Orochimaru (well, I dont wank him, but you get the metaphor anyway).



Rinnegan doesnt give any kind of speed boost. The only thing that boosts speed and reflexes was Hashirama's Sage Mode he obtained. 

I am looking at things objectively. Tobirama canonically isnt as powerful as his brother. Hashirama is slower, but he has feats that proves he is fast enough to not get blitzed and use his techniques against Tobirama. Madara reacted to V2 Ei's speed and BM Naruto's Shunshin, and blocked both of those, yet Hashirama fought with him equally in CQC. Hashirama is fast enough to not get blitzed, although he is slower. Tsunade is not even remotely close.

Tsunade elbows Tobirama, who is dozens of times faster than her? I lol'ed. That's one of the most stupid sh*t i've ever read in the Battledome.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tsubaki1684 (May 20, 2016)

Tobirama mastered all 5 elements. That and his keen intellect puts him ahead geniuses such as Shisui Itachi and Minato.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (May 20, 2016)

Tobirama is praised for his Speed,Intelligence,Ninjutsu Prowess having mastered all 5 + 2 Elements being one of the best Suiton Users by hype in History,plus created many Forbidden and High Level Tech aside from FTG,KB and ET. Praised as master Swrodsman with great Knowledge...just Kishi failed to develop and show most of Tobirama and failed to give him Finishing Move outside GKF.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hasan (May 20, 2016)

Hussain said:


> ok?
> Tobirama used a FTG, him being faster that Minato's physical speed with that is expected.


Deliberate misrepresentation? He intercepted the Gudoudama before Minato could, without Hiraishin.



> What I am talking about is the whole thing, not a little moment, and then ignoring everything else. Because that's quite dumb.


Do clarify about the 'whole thing'. Are you saying people missed something regarding the feat in question? What's so ambiguous about it? If something is, why haven't you mentioned it? Or are you suggesting it should be studied by considering the remaining of his feats? If so, that's a silly thing to say. You are essentially arguing that him getting beaten down by Madara should change our view on him outdoing Minato—for instance. The 'whole thing' gives us an idea about the character's strength—subjective, and not something I argued (as of yet). I merely pointed out that when the author gave him his turn, even Minato was taken aback by the amount of skill, he displayed. That's nothing something anyone can (or should) deny.



> Lol, no it did not. What exhausted Minato the most is Teleporting the SA, after that he was the one who gave his kid his chakra.


Minato himself said that.



> And no, your comparisons are just ridiculous. If you want to judge the performance you should compare everything and take the different factors on what's going on to end up with a rational conclusion.


Hiruzen saved Naruto at the *same place and time*, Tobirama and Minato were trying to—means he outperformed them. If you want to consider 'other factors', Hiruzen is canonically stronger than both Tobirama and Minato. . . the 'strongest Hokage in history' fact that you, so anxiously, post every time someone mentions Hashirama's name. 



> Otherwise, we can have Ino > BM Narudo because she saved Choji before him.
> Karin > Hiruzen & 5 Kages because she damaged the Buddha greatly and more than them.
> Sakura > Rinnegan Sasuke because she outperformed him against Kaguya.
> 
> and so on.


In order for one character to outperform another, the circumstances have to be the same—or worse, or there's a race-condition. Did Hiruzen try to compete with Karin, or take Tobi head-on, and failed? No. Did Sakura take Kaguya head-on, like Sasuke? No.



> It reads "improved the mastery" alone?
> 
> You focused on "improved the mastery" and completely ignored the "refined" and "evolved"


None of the passages imply that Minato's Hiraishin is functionally different from Tobirama's: (1) The first one isn't even a comparison, and the preceding sentences gibberish that you opted to not read makes clear the meaning of the 'evolved variation' → throw a kunai, jump to it (which, by the way, even Tobirama could do). (2) Pushing it higher → Minato is better user of the two, which no one denied. No mechanical variation, as far as the manga is concerned. (3) The third one is about Tobirama's legacy that Minato carried into a new age. The sentence that mentions 'refined' and 'evolved' has a metaphorical tone, and clearly echoes what the passage is about in the first place → Minato inherited the technique, and improved its mastery.


> You went to that chapter, when we have seen Tobirama asking the permission from Minato?
> even Tobirama could do
> "4th LET ME use the connection between you and Naruto's chakra"
> thinking otherwise is not the smartest thing.
> There is a reason why Tobirama needed Minato to teleport him to his Kunai at first.


Permission doesn't imply inability, and—

You do realize that you're actually enforcing my point, than countering it? I provided the scan, in which Tobirama says he linked Minato's marking. . . and you only showed me *when *he might have done that.


> Where did Asspulldara say he is slower than he was? I see a lot of fanfictions...


It's an obvious take away from Madara's comment, unless you think that Tobirama intentionally slowed down.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kyu (May 20, 2016)

Tsubaki1684 said:


> Tobirama mastered all 5 elements. That and his keen intellect puts him ahead geniuses such as Shisui Itachi and Minato.



Itachi died at 21 & Minato died at 24; Tobirama lived over _twice_ as long. He _should_ have more elements under his belt than those two. Shisui shouldn't be too much older than them but I'll leave him out of it considering I don't know his exact age


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## IzayaOrihara (May 20, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Wood Style: Universe Wood Style: Universe Wood Style: Universe Wood Style: Universe Wood Style: Universe Wood Style: Universe
> 
> He clearly outperformed KCM Minato during 4SWW.


Im on my phone so the scans arent showing, but yeah i believe you.


> When she can regenerate her whole head, let me know. Because nobody has ever demonstrated that kind of regeneration.


I dont care. Tsunade said she can regenerate any damaged parts of her body. That includes her haid. Hidan survived a decapitation and Orochimaru has survived something similar on one occasion so dont even think about bringing real world logic into this.


> Hell, even Juubidara with Hashirama's Sage Mode and Juubi's senjutsu-chakra (senjutsu chakra boosts every ninjutsu shinobi has) almost got killed when half of his torso and arm has been removed. A whole head to regenerate may be even worse than that.


I Dont care. He wasnt almost killed. He survived and regenerated. The same will go for his head.

If Tsunade cant regenerate her head then that means you must think Tobirama > Hashirama (who has a slightly inferior regeneration jutsu and is slower than Tobirama, who you think can easily land a decapitation on someone, which is stupid considering he didnt do it to Izuna, an Uchiha he hated with everythin in him, as weve seen how badly he wanted to kill Madara, on two separate occasions, as well as sasuke, so you are wanking)



> Rinnegan doesnt give any kind of speed boost. The only thing that boosts speed and reflexes was Hashirama's Sage Mode he obtained.


I never meant to imply Rinnegan increases speed, but what about perception like the Sharingan and Byakugan.



> I am looking at things objectively.


Quite the opposite actually. You are giving Tobirama feats he hasnt shown himself to be capable of, while rejecting the objectivity of Sozo Saisei/Byakugo's description, and subjectively taking away abilities from Tsunade.



> Tobirama canonically isnt as powerful as his brother.


He isnt as powerful as the Sannin either. @Hussain 's scans prove that.


> Hashirama is slower, but he has feats that proves he is fast enough to not get blitzed and use his techniques against Tobirama.


Such as? Give me a scan that proves Base Hashirama can dodge say the attack that Tobirama downed Izuna with if Tobirama lands an FTG marking on the back of Hashiramas neck or the side of his waist.



> Madara reacted to V2 Ei's speed and BM Naruto's Shunshin, and blocked both of those, yet Hashirama fought with him equally in CQC.


In that case Tsunade and Madara are equals in speed since she did CQC with him. Dont give Mokuton Cell enhanced Edo Madaras feats to Base Hashirama, considering it was SM Hashirama that was seen clashing in CQC with EMS Madara.


> Hashirama is fast enough to not get blitzed, although he is slower. Tsunade is not even remotely close.


No he isnt. You are just using baseless excuses to get around downplaying Tsunade

Choose one of the two
Either Tobirama isnt able to decapitate Tsunade/she can regenerate her head as proved in the manga

OR

Tobirama is able to defeat Hashirama, which im sure a wanker as such as yourself would love to believe is true

Choose the first option and concede that Tobirama < Sannin or choose the second option and ill accept Tobirama beating Sannin but we have to accept him beating Hashirama too at the same time as both are much slower than Tobirama and both use a similar regeneration power



> Tsunade elbows Tobirama, who is dozens of times faster than her? I lol'ed. That's one of the most stupid sh*t i've ever read in the Battledome.


He isnt dozens faster than anyone.
She hit Mu at the same time Raikage hit Madara. She while wounded and exhausted outran an in shape ANBU to the Pain vs Naruto battlefield. She protected Naruto from Kusanagi and later punched Orochimaru square in the face and on both times started from an inconvenient position (lying down wounded next to Naruto on the opposite side of his body to where Orochimaru was) and Orochimaru didnt react. She closwd the distance between her and V1 Ribcage Madara in a single leap. Gamabunta stands as tall as Kurama. Manda was even higher than that when she jumped up to the sky, while holding Gamabunta's Tanto, calculated Mandas position and struck him in his jaw before a snake as fast as him could get his teeth to make contact with Bunta's head when he was literally right next to him when he popped out of the ground. So no. She isnt getting her head cut off like an unresponsive dummy. And also, when Orochimaru (who by Hiruzen Portrayal, Edo Tensei War Arc Hype and general feats across the board is stronger than Tobirama, as I and Hussain proved, as well as in the same ballpark as Base Minato whom is stronger than Tobirama) couldnt down Tsunade with Kusanagi (the physically strongest sword in the world, able to cut the Diamond Hard Staff of Hiruzen, the guy who was stronger than Tobirama, and in his prime used that same staff to evict Kurama from the vicinity of Konoha in just a single attack) and Edo Rinnegan Madara couldnt down Tsunade with Susanoo swords (stronger than the one Sasuke smashed pillars with at the Five Kage Summit) or using Mokuton (the power of Hashirama Senju, the First Hokage, who along with Madara are two shinobi that can molest Tobirama) to cut her in half, was not enough to put her down, even when (Kusanagi and Mokuton) her Yin Seal was deactivated (showing her high survival rate as a Senjuzumaki whom became the most skilled medical ninja in the history of the shinobi universe), her going down to a rusty old kunai just seems silly. Im on my phone now but im almost home so if you want the scans for everything i just said, then simply say the word. I dont mean to offend you, and if i am wrong, sorry, but you are a wanker and a misogynist, so i doubt anything i say will change your mind, but in my mind, i have won this argument. Tsunade has the ability to defeat Prime Orochimaru (no ET). Tobirama cant beat that same Orochimaru. So how on earth is he beating the Slug Princess.

EDIT:



			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> I am looking at things objectively.


I understand that you like Tobirama, and yeah, he has cool abilities, but he just isnt beating Tsunade. He has lower portrayal than the Sannin. And sorry for insinuating you were a misogynist. I was mad and confused and you didn't deserve that. I understand what you are going through. I once tried to see if Prime Orochimaru could beat the Six Paths of Pain. He is close to Pain like Tobirama is to Tsunade, but its just not enough.



			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> I am looking at things objectively.


If you were looking at things objectively, you would understand that Kishimoto has portrayed Tsunade as a monster tank (Kusanagi/V1-3 Susanoo Dual Blades/Yasaka Magatama/Chou Shinra Tensei/Mokuton/Chakra Scalpels which form internal incisions) and not as someonme that would go down to a Kunai. You would understand Tobirama has never beheaded someone. What you are doing is just "wishful thinking". And even if Tsunade did get her head cut off by Tobirama, you would understand that Kishimoto has stated she can reconstruct all damaged parts of her body.

It has already been proved that Sannin > Tobirama by Portrayal





IzayaOrihara said:


> Well first of all, before i get into big discussions, let me just simply answer the question. Is Tobirama overrated? Yes indeed. Why? People think he is Minato's equal (or stronger) and that is simply just not the case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All you have made me do is explain it using the logic of Feats.

Conclusion: Base Minato > Sannin > Tobirama

I'm telling you. If you reread the whole manga and discard your favouritism of Tobirama, you would see its true. Dont use OOC arguments because Tobirama is your fav. The Sannin are my favs and I didnt do that. All I did was abide by the manga.

Kishi telling me Tsunade can regenerate//Tobirama never having decapitated anyone or showing he can do it to people stronger than him > you saying she cant//you saying he can and will. Thats the main point im trying to put across here.

If a living form of Tobirama could
- defeat Jiraiya 
- defeat a drugged Jiraiya without any use of ninjutsu
- match KN4 in a sick, nerfed state
- almost kill Jiraiya and Gambunta at the same time
- survive a fight against Healthy Itachi in the context where he has no killing intent and is only using jutsu in order to take over Itachi's body
- create the opportunity to kill Hebi Sasuke on his deathbed with no ninjutsu
- defeat Manda in one attack
- tank Pain's CST and save the whole of Konoha from an ugly death while doing so
- after having done so, outrun an in shape ANBU to the battlefield
- face up to 5 V3 Edo Madara Clones and come out alove after fighting for hours
- survive a battle against a man who equalled Konoha's strongest jonin, after having not been in combat for over 20 years
- take out the Fourth Kazekage (in what we were shown was) in one attack
- defeat the God of Shinobi, whom at the time of his death was the strongest of the Five Kage, using no more than 3 ninjutsu (Edo Tensei/Sen'ei Jashu/Kusanagi: Ku no Tachi) techniques (sadly, Tobirama cannot even manage this since he isnt as talented as Hiruzen, in fact, Hiruzen defeated Tobirama in his Edo Form)
- win the Second Ninja World War for Konoha and be the sole cause of doing this (lol Tobirama got offed by fodders in the first war) like Jiraiya said Tsunade was
- have the capacity to take out the Six Paths of Pain in Amegakure
- be more talented than Hiruzen like Orochimaru was
- have the ability to take out Sasori easily
- withstand Neurotoxins
- put down Yamata no Orochi
- take out Boss Snakes in single jutsus (Yomi Numa/Bring Down The House via Gamahiro)
Then i would accept him as an equal to the Sannin, not stronger, just equal. If he cant do at least 70% of the things on this list, then he aint beating a single one of them. He literally doesn't have a chance.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> You haven't done anything your 'evidence' is about as phony as your argument, that's why it's pointless to continue. I don't think I've seen people grasp at straws like you have yet.



grasp as straws by giving you  direct comparisons that made by the author himself about them?

What is your argument based on other than your obvious bias? 
All you have said so far is "Tobirama is better than the Sannin because I said so" Not sure if I
can take that seriously.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2016)

> [="Hasan, post: 55641660, member: 75070"]Deliberate misrepresentation? He intercepted the Gudoudama before Minato could, without Hiraishin.


Except it's with FTG. 
If Tobirama was running he will never be physically "standing" in that way. Even the anime understood that way as well.


Wood Style: Universe
Not would it be possible that no one was able to see him coming when he was supposedly running right in front of their faces. lol

Wood Style: Universe
Nor is it going to make sense that Tobirama's clan is that faster than he is with just shunshin.
Speaking of which, that's how a human should like when he is jumbing/coming from above.
Not "standing still" that does not possibly lead into thinking that a person was running. 


> Do clarify about the 'whole thing'. Are you saying people missed something regarding the feat in question? What's so ambiguous about it? If something is, why haven't you mentioned it? Or are you suggesting it should be studied by considering the remaining of his feats? If so, that's a silly thing to say. You are essentially arguing that him getting beaten down by Madara should change our view on him outdoing Minato—for instance. The 'whole thing' gives us an idea about the character's strength—subjective, and not something I argued (as of yet). I merely pointed out that when the author gave him his turn, even Minato was taken aback by the amount of skill, he displayed. That's nothing something anyone can (or should) deny.


No, I am talking about their entire performance from the start of the war (when they participated) to the very end.



> Minato himself said that.


"The FTG I used before" Why did you ignore that part? We have seen how exhaused Minato was after it.
said

Not as if that means anything to Tobirama anyway, as he he was inside of Narudo's tail and was protected from getting directly attacked.


> Hiruzen saved Naruto at the *same place and time*, Tobirama and Minato were trying to—means he outperformed them. If you want to consider 'other factors', Hiruzen is canonically stronger than both Tobirama and Minato. . . the 'strongest Hokage in history' fact that you, so anxiously, post every time someone mentions Hashirama's name.


No it does not. Unless you think the taka were also shown to be faster and outperformed Sasuke against the Raikage, which no sane person would say.
said
said



> In order for one character to outperform another, the circumstances have to be the same—or worse, or there's a race-condition. Did Hiruzen try to compete with Karin, or take Tobi head-on, and failed? No. Did Sakura take Kaguya head-on, like Sasuke? No.



And what was Hiruzen doing the whole time against Tobi? 
He was standing there waiting for him to get exhausted and go by himself? All of them were attacking him.
According to your logic, Kishi implies that Karin > Hiruzen, A, Mei, and Onoki. 


> None of the passages imply that Minato's Hiraishin is functionally different from Tobirama's: (1) The first one isn't even a comparison, and the preceding sentences gibberish that you opted to not read makes clear the meaning of the 'evolved variation' → throw a kunai, jump to it (which, by the way, even Tobirama could do). (2) Pushing it higher → Minato is better user of the two, which no one denied. No mechanical variation, as far as the manga is concerned. (3) The third one is about Tobirama's legacy that Minato carried into a new age. The sentence that mentions 'refined' and 'evolved' has a metaphorical tone, and clearly echoes what the passage is about in the first place → Minato inherited the technique, and improved its mastery.



Yes they do. Minato upgraded to until he was named the "Yellow Flash" which enabled him to defeat armies. Tobirama on the other hand was getting his ass kicked by far less numbers, and never got hyped or noteced as much as Minato in that regard.

- lol, your comparesions makes no sense. That's like saying Cho-Odoma-Rassengan has the same mechanics as the Rassengan, so therefore there is no different to the normal rassengan. 

Or that Karin's chains do the same thing like Kushina's chains, so there is no different between them in regard of power even tho the databook state otherwise.

and so on.

- "metaphorical" 
no it does not has that tone. It's flat out telling us that he improved the jutsu.
Minato changing the entire formula that being used for the jutsu is a clear example of that as well.


> Permission doesn't imply inability, and—


Nonsense.
There is a reason why Tobirama asked Minato for that. It's no different than Naruto giving the others his Rassengans.
even Tobirama could do
even Tobirama could do

Are you saying that they can create and/or use those Rassengans without Narudo actualling letting them using the? 

Or when Narudo allowed Sasuke to use his Gedu-Damas, can Sasuke use it as he wills WITHOUT Naruto allowing that to happen? lol



> You do realize that you're actually enforcing my point, than countering it? I provided the scan, in which Tobirama says he linked Minato's marking. . . and you only showed me *when *he might have done that.


That's when you take what you like, and ignore what you don't like because it's crushes your point.
I did not deny that Tobirama linked his chakra to Minato, now did I?

On the other hand, you completely ignore a key factor on what happened in which
1- Tobirama needs that link
2- Tobirama asked for Minato to let him use it.

Where you manupilated that, and passed it by as he can use Minato's markes "At will" which is obvious bullshit.
As he can't use shit without Minato letting him do so. Otherwise, he wouldn't have needed Minato to teleport him here
even Tobirama could do
even Tobirama could do






> It's an obvious take away from Madara's comment, unless you think that Tobirama intentionally slowed down.


No it's not. Asspulldara never implied such a thing. If Oro's ET effected his speed, it would have effected the other's as well. We know for a fact that did not happen, so this is an irrational thought.

Unless you can explain how the "ET" hates Tobirama so much that it allowed the others to use their full speed, but it was angery with Tobirama that it did not allow him to use his full speed for some reason.


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## Turrin (May 20, 2016)

I feel like the better question should be what places the Sannin as equals to Tobirama. Tobirama's accomplishments and hype outstrip any of the Sannin as far as i'm concerned w/ the debatable exception of Jiraiya. Tobirama commands the GoaT jutsu Hiriashin and I don't think ether of the other two Sannin have anything that quite measures up to that; Jiraiya can at least be debated thx to his ability to use Sennin Modo. Him defeating MS-Izuna is quite frankly a better accomplishment than ether Tsunade or Orochimaru have achieved, unless we take thee most conservative estimate possible of Izuna's capabilities and the highest estimate possible of Old-Hiruzen's capabilities, in which case maybe Orochimaru matches him, but than Tobirama went on to gain more exp, knowledge, etc... after that as his career as a Ninja was far from over (albeit so did Orochimaru as of the Boruto time-line, but i'm assuming most people are talking about Orochimaru in the Naruto Manga). Jiraiya again is the only one I think can be debated to match him, though it's mostly through statements in Jiraiya's case like his ability to draw or beat MS-Itachi or beat Pain w/ the right knowledge, rather than outright actions like in the case of Tobirama beating Izuna straight up. Also in terms of career Tobirama brings more to the table than any individual Sannin, sans again debatably Jiraiya who was a lynch pin in the prophecy being fulfilled; from inventing some of the most plot important Jutsu in the manga to, being the second strongest Senju, Nindaime Hokage, and so on. Also while I put less importance on feats than most, I think it does speak volumes that Tobirama despite getting less panel time than any of the Sannin, was objectively more impressive than all three of them, with again it being perhaps a bit debatable as far as Jiraiya is concerned.

That's not to say I think Tobirama is far above the Sannin, but I do think looking at it as objectively as possible (and most people know i'm a Sannin fan), it's hard to see any of the Sannin being equal to Tobirama, w/ Jiraiya maybe being the only one I can kinda of see a case being made for, but even still that should place Tobirama as >= Jiraiya > Oro/Tsunade, and I myself (again being more a Jiraiya-fan) would give Tobirama the nod above Jiraiya.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2016)

Bringing Izuna makes no sense whatsoever. It's a character that we don't know anything about. What is there to say he is as strong or stronger than the Sannin exactly?



> from inventing some of the most plot important Jutsu in the manga to


How inventing a jutsu makes you stronger than others? The jutsu he invented is better than Hashirama who did not invite jutsu, does that make him stronger? 

Sasuke learned a jutsu that Kakashi invented, is Kakashi stronger than Sasuke?

likewise, Tobirama created the ET for example. Then, Oro took the jutsu and made it far more powerful that Tobirama could have ever done. How does that make Tobirama better?


Naruto uses shadow clones and Rassengan, is he weaker than Tobirama and Minato
because he is using their jutsu and did not "create" a jutsu himself?


> being the second strongest Senju, Nindaime Hokage, and so on.


None of that means anything. 
Both Oro and Jiraiya were considered to be the 4th Hokage, and Tsunade is the 5th Hokage. What makes Tobirama's Hokage title better?
Heck, Kakashi is the Hokage even tho Narudo, Sasuke, and Sakura are all far stronger than he is. 

"2nd strongest senju" is fan-made tho. We never got anything like that. Unless you mean in Hashirama's time, then that does not mean anything really. It's not like we have seen tons of the Senju with outstanding power, now have we?

It's like saying "Kankuro is the 2nd strongest shinobi in Suna village, then that must mean he is super powerful" and stronger than the Sannin... 




> was objectively more impressive than all three of them, with again it being perhaps a bit debatable as far as Jiraiya is concerned.


he was not tho. 
heck, even all of the ET Hokage are, were ORO's jutsu for crying out loud.


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## Ashi (May 20, 2016)

Hussain, are you saying Tobirama is weaker than Base Minato? I find that a little hard to believe given the Juubi Arc's portrayal


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## Trojan (May 20, 2016)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Hussain, are you saying Tobirama is weaker than Base Minato? I find that a little hard to believe given the Juubi Arc's portrayal


I do think that base Minato is stronger than Tobirama, and by rather a big deal as well. However, I am not sure what does this have to do with the topic at hand in term of him compared to the Sannin. 

As for the War Arc, Minato outclassed him in every turn. The only thing making Tobirama "seem" stands out is when people use such retarded logic like when they compare retard-form Obito for example to full powered Obito, and then make stupid comparison.

It's like if someone say the Junchuuriki hit KCM Naruto in their base form.
However, the Bijuu got trashed by BM Naruto.

Therefore, the hosts alone are stronger than the Bijuus. You can't take those type of people seriously because of the sheer amount of stupidity. 

the same with Obito, in his retard form he, for example, has 2 Gedu-Damas that can't even destroy the ET.

In full control, those Gedu-dama increased into 10, and gained new abilities, and Tobirama himself admitted his speed when Obito shield himself. But we are supposed to believe that there
is no different between retard form Obito and that Obito according to those people?


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## Trojan (May 20, 2016)

@

Here is a comparison I made year(s) ago. 

When Minato and Tobirama first arrived to the War


The amount of damage Obito did. TAKING IN CONSIDERATION THAT MINATO FACED A STRONGER OBITO.

If you will take retard-form Obito, then Minato saved Narudo and Sasuke before his Gedu-Damas could even comes out
even Tobirama could do
even Tobirama could do

Had he been like Tobirama, Narudo and Sasuke would have lost their heads there. lol

anyway, they both got trashed by Asspulldara, even tho Tobirama was put down for good

But then again, are we going to act like RT Madara, is also the same as facing off JJ Asspulldara? 
Minato has always been against the stronger forms of those foes compared to the other Hokages. Not considering the different in powers is either do to people being biased, or them being stupid honestly. Just like we can't say "Hashirama defeated alive Asspulldara, therefore he is as strong as RM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke who took on JJ Asspulldara because Asspulldara is Asspulldara" Now would that make any sense?



Here, Tobirama took 1 Gedu-Dama and teleported it. That's cool. However, Minato took 5 of them and made them useless BEFORE they can do any damage to his body. At the same time, he outspeed Gai, in and out. Why don't people take this reaction to him, but they take Tobirama's? Even then Minato did not get fodderized here as Tobirama was. 


And Tobirama can only deal with 1, when he asked Minato to deal with more. lol

Finally,


I guess teleporting 2 guys, is also better than teleporting thousands of them, huh?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Isaiah13000 (May 20, 2016)

Hussain said:


> @
> 
> Here is a comparison I made year(s) ago.
> 
> ...


This is exactly why I'm not buying this Tobirama > Minato bullshit. You couldn't have said this shit any better, just because Tobirama is wiser and more experienced doesn't mean he's better. Some say Minato's FTG tactics "utterly failed" during the War Arc whilst Tobirama's execution was superior. Tobirama lost half of his fucking body when he employed his "superior" FTG usage against a mindless Juubito, and then needed Hashirama's help to restrain Juubito so he could proceed to lose his entire body when he mounted a counterattack. Had he been alive, he would've immediately died before he could do shit. To make this even worse Tobirama later employs a tactic against SM Madara that's extremely similar to Minato's Hiraishin Lvl 2, so clearly he found this "inferior usage" to be pretty helpful, no? Not to mention how he kept asking for his permission?

Minato later has to deal with mindless Juubito while protecting Naruto and Sasuke and right before he's able to land one of his strongest techniques Obito obtains complete control over the Juubi and transforms becoming far more powerful and intelligent. He then manages to chop off Minato's arm and takes him by surprise with a Gudoudama, to which Tobirama swoops in and teleports away. So this has people believe Tobirama > KCM Minato yet no one in their right mind is saying that Jugo and Suigetsu are > Sasuke because they could intercept attacks from Darui and A before a distracted MS Sasuke could do anything. Tobirama also had to sacrifice a clone to do that with one Gudoudama, yet Minato himself could warp after several of them from Juudara before he could anything with them. People ignore this, some calling this an "outlier" but no one is saying shit about Tobirama's feat with Minato.

Likely because some find it more "logical" that Tobirama who has already self-declared inferiority to Minato in terms of both Hiraishin and Shunshin consistently throughout the War and got completely trashed by mindless Juubito and SM Madara whilst Minato could still at least maintain most of his body against mindful Juubito and Juudara is faster than KCM Minato because he could react to a surprise attack not directed at himself faster than Minato could. It's extremely clear that people are simply being biased or idiotic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (May 20, 2016)

Those aren't the only factors either. People always have a blind eye to the character they were fighting. Even tho Obito is a complete garbage, but he still (somehow ) means a lot to Minato being his student and all. On the other hand, obito does not mean anything to Tobirama. That's like why we saw Minato fuzzy so to speak.

Just like how Kakashi's performance against Obito dropped drastically when he learned that obito is the masked guy. Or how Hiruzen kept thinking about Oro. Or how Narudo never used his full power against Sasuke in order to not kill him. Whether they like it or not, that's Kishi's way with the battles when it comes to a character who knows or have a relationship with the other character that it's against.

At the end of the day, Tobirama was completely obliterated, and so were the other Hokages. On the other hand, at no point was Minato completely out like them. 

And the only time he did something that they are fapping to, was literally when Minato & co was actually fighting and under that pressure while Tobirama came out off-panel where there was no focus on him.

That's like saying Sakura outclassed Narudo and Sasuke because she dealt with Shin when they were trolled or he focused on them
Link removed

She did not look so good when Shin was focusing on her alone, now did she? 
Link removed


And many other factors of course.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Isaiah13000 (May 20, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Those aren't the only factors either. People always have a blind eye to the character they were fighting. Even tho Obito is a complete garbage, but he still (somehow ) means a lot to Minato being his student and all. On the other hand, obito does not mean anything to Tobirama. That's like why we saw Minato fuzzy so to speak.
> 
> Just like how Kakashi's performance against Obito dropped drastically when he learned that obito is the masked guy. Or how Hiruzen kept thinking about Oro. Or how Narudo never used his full power against Sasuke in order to not kill him. Whether they like it or not, that's Kishi's way with the battles when it comes to a character who knows or have a relationship with the other character that it's against.
> 
> ...


It's also like when people say Itachi did better against Nagato than KCM Naruto and Killer B did because of what he did when Nagato (Kabuto) literally ignored his ass the entire fight. Or how Nagato's sensing was conveniently turned off so that Itachi could swoop in and help them. Had Itachi attacked Nagato one-on-one he would've gotten trashed but of course Kishi would never illustrate such a thing because he can't have Itachi look bad at all.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 20, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> But one thing can be said - that team would have wiped the f**king floor with base Minato if he was in Tobirama's place.


You sure?
You sure Darui > Base Minato? You need to be careful about that one.
Nerfed or not those clowns arent touching Minato. Their best feat was beating an unheard of kage (Nidaime Raikage), and i guess tobirama, which i have to give them credit for, but then again, Tobirama is weaker than the Sannin, all of whom are inferior to Base Minato so ...


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## Eliyua23 (May 20, 2016)

I dont know about Tobirama being above the Sannin or having better accomplishments , I mean Tobirama's defeat of Izuna is sketchy  at best because we don't know how strong Izuna was at the time or how far he had developed his MS, did he have stage 4 Susanoo , complete mastery or was he like Sasuke at the beginning of the Kages arc where he was still progressing with the MS , because if thats the case all of the Sannin could beat Sasuke at that time seeing as how he was equal to Raikage , who all of the Sannin are stronger than , the key is learning how powerful Izuna was at the time of his death , my conclusion is if you're fighting a CQC type of fighter like Tobirama the smart thing to do would be to turtle up in Susanoo , the fact he didn't do so kind of leads me to believe he didn't have it , as it seemed to be a go to move for Sasuke/Madara/Itachi when engaging in important battles and he's supposed to be in their mold having his eyes compared to Sasuke's .

I mean Jiraiya was hyped as being slightly stronger than an MS user Itachi who has better feats with the MS than Izuna , and could've beaten a Rinnegan user who is definitely above Izuna's level, Orochimaru had access to Edo Tensei and defeated Hiruzen who at the time stood above the other Gokage , shit overall Sannin's abilities proved more critical in the war arc as Edo Tensei, Sage Mode, Tsunade/Sakura's abilities ect


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## StarWanderer (May 21, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I dont care. Tsunade said she can regenerate any damaged parts of her body. That includes her haid. Hidan survived a decapitation and Orochimaru has survived something similar on one occasion so dont even think about bringing real world logic into this.



You dont? Juubidara, whose regeneration is many times better than Tsunade's, almost died after Gai took off half of his torso and his arm.

Tsunade has never, ever, demonstrated such a regeneration.

And i want to see her saying that she can regenerate any part of her body.



IzayaOrihara said:


> I Dont care. He wasnt almost killed. He survived and regenerated. The same will go for his head.
> 
> If Tsunade cant regenerate her head then that means you must think Tobirama > Hashirama (who has a slightly inferior regeneration jutsu and is slower than Tobirama, who you think can easily land a decapitation on someone, which is stupid considering he didnt do it to Izuna, an Uchiha he hated with everythin in him, as weve seen how badly he wanted to kill Madara, on two separate occasions, as well as sasuke, so you are wanking)



He almost got killed and that's a character whose regeneration abilities are dozens of times (literally) better than Tsunade's. If someone with 10 times (or even more) better regeneration than Tsunade's almost got killed by half of his torso being removed, than Tsunade dies after someone removes her head.

Hashirama is not so slower than Tobirama that Tobirama can speedblitz him. Neither Tobirama possess fast enough Shunshin to do that, not he is overall too fast for his brother. Hashirama is slower, yes, but not to the point that Tobirama can blitz him. He can use his techniques to kill Tobirama just fine.

He was about to hit Sage Mode Madara with his Kunai in his head. And Izuna may be a lot faster than Tsunade.



IzayaOrihara said:


> I never meant to imply Rinnegan increases speed, but what about perception like the Sharingan and Byakugan.



Rinnegan doesnt have 360 field of vision like Byakugan. As if i cared about that anyway. Perception has nothing to do with speed and reactions.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Quite the opposite actually. You are giving Tobirama feats he hasnt shown himself to be capable of, while rejecting the objectivity of Sozo Saisei/Byakugo's description, and subjectively taking away abilities from Tsunade.



I am objective because i base my opinion on canon. You dont - you just have some little fantasies of yurs that Tsunade can regrow her head although manga contradicts that by Juubidara's words. Plus, Tsunade has never shown that kind of regeneration.



IzayaOrihara said:


> He isnt as powerful as the Sannin either. @Hussain 's scans prove that.



Hussain is a troll who loves to write some non-canon bullsh*t, he rarely proves anything.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Such as? Give me a scan that proves Base Hashirama can dodge say the attack that Tobirama downed Izuna with if Tobirama lands an FTG marking on the back of Hashiramas neck or the side of his waist.



Hashirama was equal to Madara in CQC, who used his hand speed to block V2 Ei's punch and BM Naruto's Shunshin. That's enough already.



IzayaOrihara said:


> In that case Tsunade and Madara are equals in speed since she did CQC with him. Dont give Mokuton Cell enhanced Edo Madaras feats to Base Hashirama, considering it was SM Hashirama that was seen clashing in CQC with EMS Madara.



She did CQC with him? Where and when exactly? When she had the support of other kages? Or when she teleported suddenly at the moment of Madara's attack on remaining shinobi, when he had no option but to block her kick?

That was base Hashirama because he had no SM markings on him there. Nothing suggests he was in SM at that moment.

Also, Hashirama's DNA doesnt boost speed.



IzayaOrihara said:


> No he isnt. You are just using baseless excuses to get around downplaying Tsunade
> 
> Choose one of the two
> Either Tobirama isnt able to decapitate Tsunade/she can regenerate her head as proved in the manga
> ...



Chose one of the two:

1. Either you concede because i proved you wrong in this debate.
2. Or you concede because i proved you wrong in this debate.

Juubidara's case proves Tsunade cant regrow her head. My other proofs prove that you are wrong in everything else.



IzayaOrihara said:


> He isnt dozens faster than anyone.
> She hit Mu at the same time Raikage hit Madara. She while wounded and exhausted outran an in shape ANBU to the Pain vs Naruto battlefield. She protected Naruto from Kusanagi and later punched Orochimaru square in the face and on both times started from an inconvenient position (lying down wounded next to Naruto on the opposite side of his body to where Orochimaru was) and Orochimaru didnt react. She closwd the distance between her and V1 Ribcage Madara in a single leap. Gamabunta stands as tall as Kurama. Manda was even higher than that when she jumped up to the sky, while holding Gamabunta's Tanto, calculated Mandas position and struck him in his jaw before a snake as fast as him could get his teeth to make contact with Bunta's head when he was literally right next to him when he popped out of the ground. So no. She isnt getting her head cut off like an unresponsive dummy. And also, when Orochimaru (who by Hiruzen Portrayal, Edo Tensei War Arc Hype and general feats across the board is stronger than Tobirama, as I and Hussain proved, as well as in the same ballpark as Base Minato whom is stronger than Tobirama) couldnt down Tsunade with Kusanagi (the physically strongest sword in the world, able to cut the Diamond Hard Staff of Hiruzen, the guy who was stronger than Tobirama, and in his prime used that same staff to evict Kurama from the vicinity of Konoha in just a single attack) and Edo Rinnegan Madara couldnt down Tsunade with Susanoo swords (stronger than the one Sasuke smashed pillars with at the Five Kage Summit) or using Mokuton (the power of Hashirama Senju, the First Hokage, who along with Madara are two shinobi that can molest Tobirama) to cut her in half, was not enough to put her down, even when (Kusanagi and Mokuton) her Yin Seal was deactivated (showing her high survival rate as a Senjuzumaki whom became the most skilled medical ninja in the history of the shinobi universe), her going down to a rusty old kunai just seems silly. Im on my phone now but im almost home so if you want the scans for everything i just said, then simply say the word. I dont mean to offend you, and if i am wrong, sorry, but you are a wanker and a misogynist, so i doubt anything i say will change your mind, but in my mind, i have won this argument. Tsunade has the ability to defeat Prime Orochimaru (no ET). Tobirama cant beat that same Orochimaru. So how on earth is he beating the Slug Princess.



She hit Madara, not Mu. And Ei wasnt using his RCM. You are wanking Tsunade too much and do not know manga properly.

As for everything else - that doesnt even come close to Tobirama being able to react to Juubito's Shunshin and hand speed. That's not even close to Tobirama's clone (!) touching Gudoudama before Minato could do that. Not even remotely close. Tobirama is a lot faster, to the point when he can speedblitz her with no effort. He either decapitates her or simply cut her head in half by his Suiton.

And Tobirama > base Minato.



IzayaOrihara said:


> If you were looking at things objectively, you would understand that Kishimoto has portrayed Tsunade as a monster tank (Kusanagi/V1-3 Susanoo Dual Blades/Yasaka Magatama/Chou Shinra Tensei/Mokuton/Chakra Scalpels which form internal incisions) and not as someonme that would go down to a Kunai. You would understand Tobirama has never beheaded someone. What you are doing is just "wishful thinking". And even if Tsunade did get her head cut off by Tobirama, you would understand that Kishimoto has stated she can reconstruct all damaged parts of her body.
> 
> It has already been proved that Sannin > Tobirama by Portrayal



Kusanago went through her chesteasily. In fact, it pierced her sternum easily. She has regeneration, but her durability is not all that cool. She got damaged by almost everything that hit her, except little YM, very little i might add.


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## Turrin (May 21, 2016)

I think it's common sense that MS-Izuna was incredibly powerful. He was hailed as the second strongest Uchiha in the clan during the clan wars when arguably the Uchiha were at the height of their power, was depicted as frequently sparring with Madara, and had developed his Sharingan to the point of  Mangekyo. Taking those things into consideration how weak could Izuna really be... 

I think it's kind of feat whorish to says Izuna needs feats to understand how good of an accomplishment Tobirama beating him and than going on to have a long career as a Ninja afterwards is.


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## Hasan (May 21, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Except it's with FTG.
> If Tobirama was running he will never be physically "standing" in that way. Even the anime understood that way as well.
> 
> 
> ...


He used Shunshin no Jutsu, clearly (a quick example, another being when Minato saved Baby-ruto — among several other). They do approach a stationary point (erm, 'stand still'), after using the technique.  Also, for someone 'standing still' after a linear maneuver, his armor-plate –flipped up– suggests a physical movement. The only way he could have used Hiraishin, was if he used Minato's marking. 

Lastly, thumbs up for Pierrot for such marvellous, intense cut of the animation. Almost looks like they copy-pasted the panels, and colored them.



> No, I am talking about their entire performance from the start of the war (when they participated) to the very end.


I re-iterate, overall performance hints at the character's level of strength, but that has no bearing on one's perception of the discrete instances (of feats), because they describe it—the overall performance. You're essentially arguing the reverse—you presume Tobirama to be at a certain level of strength, and then you try to look at his feats through those lens. Thus, you end up with your own skewed perception of them. . . It's not supposed to work that way.



> "The FTG I used before" Why did you ignore that part? We have seen how exhaused Minato was after it.
> example


Does it somehow change the fact that Shinjuu depleted him completely?



> Not as if that means anything to Tobirama anyway, as he he was inside of Narudo's tail and was protected from getting directly attacked.


Of course not, because it's supposed to highlight Minato's inability and incompetency that allowed the Shinjuu to dehydrate him, leaving him incapable of doing anything to prevent his only son's impending death.



> No it does not. Unless you think the taka were also shown to be faster and outperformed Sasuke against the Raikage, which no sane person would say.
> example
> example


*sigh*

That's not what an 'outperformance' is supposed to be. By saying the two were 'faster' and 'outperformed' Sasuke, you're implying effort (to stop the incoming attack) on Sasuke's part, when there was none. Furthermore, there's no implication of Sasuke's inability i.e. intent and failure. Had Sasuke to tried to block the attack, and failed, but the other two succeeding → your case would be valid. Unfortunately, it's not. Partly because you cherry-picked two scans to present incomplete information, and majorly because you seem to misunderstand what 'outperformance' entails. In contrast—

Minato, Tobirama and Hiruzen each tried to save Naruto from the Shinjuu. They: (1) shared a common goal, (2) and had every intention to accomplish it, both of which were clearly illustrated. There was an 'implicit' competition between the three—by implicit, I mean, a situation were you could objectively compare the performances of each of the the three, by seeing who managed to save Naruto. They obviously weren't trying to outdo another—

Now does this shows that Hiruzen's stronger, or that he outperforms them every time? No, and –once again– not something that I argued. You can consider Hiruzen to be whatever level of strength, it's never going to change that the fact he saved Naruto, when the other two failed.



> And what was Hiruzen doing the whole time against Tobi?
> He was standing there waiting for him to get exhausted and go by himself? All of them were attacking him.
> According to your logic, Kishi implies that Karin > Hiruzen, A, Mei, and Onoki.


Not mine—yours. 'No sane person' would think that there's any correlation between Hiruzen counter-balancing Tobi's attack, and Karin –along with other three– in *hiding* until they *ambushed* Tobi.



> Yes they do. Minato upgraded to until he was named the "Yellow Flash" which enabled him to defeat armies. Tobirama on the other hand was getting his ass kicked by far less numbers, and never got hyped or noteced as much as Minato in that regard.


That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not, the technique was mechanically altered to perform better and faster than its supposedly primitive version.



> - lol, your comparesions makes no sense. That's like saying Cho-Odoma-Rassengan has the same mechanics as the Rassengan, so therefore there is no different to the normal rassengan.
> 
> Or that Karin's chains do the same thing like Kushina's chains, so there is no different between them in regard of power even tho the databook state otherwise.
> 
> and so on.


What comparisons? Are you talking about Tobirama jumping to kunai mid-air being the same as Minato jumping to the kunai mid-air?





> - "metaphorical"
> no it does not has that tone. It's flat out telling us that he improved the jutsu.


_"The excellent jutsu was refined according to the disciple, who evolved it together with the era."_ immediately succeeds the text that says he improved its mastery, which in turn, immediately succeeds the the text that reads he inherited Tobirama's legacy. Why would those words mean anything else, when the passage already established that Minato has greater mastery? It's merely a re-iteration in a more poetic 'legend revives' esque style, woven into the context of the passage.



> Minato changing the entire formula that being used for the jutsu is a clear example of that as well.


Maybe, I should clarify what I mean by an 'enhanced' Hiraishin. As I said in my original post, I believe Minato excels in his ability to teleport theoretically any number of people, while Tobirama is limited to not too many. Functionally, they are the same—the speed, and the underlying principle. I do think that Kishimoto may have originally planned to make Tobirama's Hiraishin slower, but clearly changed his mind later on.

The formula probably just holds an aesthetic-value only, like he –the author– does with Chidori and Raikiri, or the unique variations of the staff for each of the Juubi jinchuuriki. *In retrospect,* one could argue that he re-designed the formula, because the original was not compatible with Kushina, but that's a huge leap. However, it definitely does not seem to be linked to an enhancement, since his bodyguards also knew the technique, but their use is severely limited in its application.



> *Nonsense.
> There is a reason why Tobirama asked Minato for that.* It's no different than Naruto giving the others his Rassengans.
> example
> example
> ...


Yes. Minato's chakra was linked to *Naruto's*, whose chakra –in turn– was linked to every soldier on the field. Tobirama –by himself– can't link with too many people at a time, and he needed it to save the fodder-squad. Linking Minato's marking is something he might have done here, but not what he was asking for. You're confusing 'ability' with 'tactic'. Once you clear that up, we can talk about the comparisons you made.



> Where you manupilated that, and passed it by as he can use Minato's markes "At will" which is obvious bullshit.


I'm sorry—what part of "I linked Fourth's marking, but at my current power, I can teleport only one" is ambiguous?



> As he can't use shit without Minato letting him do so. Otherwise, he wouldn't have needed Minato to teleport him here
> example
> example


Well, duh. He hadn't linked Minato's marking at the time. 



> No it's not. Asspulldara never implied such a thing. If Oro's ET effected his speed, it would have effected the other's as well. We know for a fact that did not happen, so this is an irrational thought.
> 
> Unless you can explain how the "ET" hates Tobirama so much that it allowed the others to use their full speed, but it was angery with Tobirama that it did not allow him to use his full speed for some reason.


Bravo, you're trying to question Madara's credibility as the person with actual experience fighting Tobirama, with your assumptions. Didn't you earlier say to StarWanderer that you dealt in manga statements alone, than investing is someone's 'assumptions'?


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## IzayaOrihara (May 21, 2016)

@StarWanderer I dont have time now but soon i will reply to you


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## IzayaOrihara (May 21, 2016)

@StarWanderer sorry for the somewhat late response.


StarWanderer said:


> You dont? Juubidara, *whose regeneration is many times better than Tsunade's, almost died after Gai took off half of his torso and his arm.*


Get me scans for both of those.
And frankly i dont care about Juubito. His regeneration a different type to what Tsunade uses.


> Tsunade has never, ever, demonstrated such a regeneration.


And Tobirama has never, ever demonstrated being the world's greatest ever water release user. Does that mean he isnt? Hiruzen has never, ever displayed having every jutsu in Konoha. Does that mean he doesnt have it. Orochimaru has never, ever displayed defeating and taming Manda like Kabuto said he did. Does that mean Orochimaru never did so? Chiyo/Sasori has never, ever displayed using 10 Puppets/100 Puppets collection to conquer a Castle/Nation. Does that mean they did not. Tsunade has never displayed being able to counter Chiyo's poisons. Does that mean she did not. Chiyo has never displayed mixing an antidote to Ibuse's poison like she said she did. Does that mean she did not? Kid Tsunade has never displayed Byakugo Sakura levels of strength as a kid. Does that mean she did not have such strength as a kid. Itachi (in manga) has never displayed physical evidence that he had a lover, even though Obito said he did ("he even killed his lover"). Does that mean Itachi did not have a girlfriend?

Why would Tsunade lie? Stop taking her feats away and then wanking Tobirama and giving him feats he accomplished as an Edo with an immortal body and limitless stamina.



> And i want to see her saying that she can regenerate any part of her body.


Bitch please. *Bitch fucking please.*
Middle panel, left hand side.



> 1. He almost got killed and that's a character whose regeneration abilities are dozens of times (literally) better than Tsunade's. If someone with 10 times (or even more) better regeneration than Tsunade's
> 
> 2. almost got killed by half of his torso being removed, than Tsunade dies after someone removes her head.


1. Like I said ill need a proof of that.
2. Im looking for a fuck to give, since Tsunade survived being cut in half, and in that state, was able to summon Katsuyu to keep the other Kage alive. Had her Byakugo not run out when she fought Madara, she would have been as good as gold after that bisection. She has taken blades through the heart and had her spine snapped (yet was able to move, defying the laws of nature). Hidan was able to talk while his head was separated from his body. Kisame (Zetsu) did fhe same. Orochimaru has survived something similar to a decapitation. So a decapitation isnt killing Tsunade.



> Hashirama is not so slower than Tobirama that Tobirama can speedblitz him. Neither Tobirama possess fast enough Shunshin to do that, not he is overall too fast for his brother. Hashirama is slower, yes, but not to the point that Tobirama can blitz him. He can use his techniques to kill Tobirama just fine.


Three things.
1. Hashirama is slower. Dont try and sugarcoat him.
2. You are a bonafide liar.
3. Even if he is, dont make excuses. Tobirama (since we are wanking today) has shown feats that he could land a decapitation on Base Hashirama. If Tobirama marks him, he can lop his head off. You claim Tsunade (who has a superior regeneration to Hashirama) cannot regenerate her head, so according to you, Hashirama isnt the stronger brother.

As for the Juubito nonsense you spouted, the difference is, Hashirama and Tsunade's regeneration is the same type - a medical ninjutsu. Is Juubito's the same as that? If so, bring a scan with you.



> He was about to hit Sage Mode Madara with his Kunai in his head.
> 
> And Izuna may be a lot faster than Tsunade.


Scan? (I remember this but not vividly)

Yeah he could be. And maybe Hanzo in his prime was faster than KCM Minato. Or, Izuna may have been slower than CE Ino.

Dont bring a character we know nothing about in to this argument. What bias to wank an unknown Uchiha but downplay a known character.

I have no reason to assume Izuna is anywhere near Tsunades level of speed. Why would you assume hes faster. We know hes weaker than the Sannin (according to Kisame) so im not gonna go out of my way to put him above one in any category, even shuriken throwing.
Bottom right panel, left hand side speech bubble.

Didnt see that scan coming did you?


> Rinnegan doesnt have 360 field of vision like Byakugan.


I never said so.


> As if i cared about that anyway.


No, because all you care about is wanking Tobirama and taking feats away from Tsunade because she is a woman.


> Perception has nothing to do with speed and reactions.


So, Base Itachi's Reaction = 3TS Itachi's Reaction? That doesnt seem right. It seems right that the perceptive cognition abilities of the Sharingan enhance an Uchiha's reactive ability in battle.

And to believe you said i have lack of knowledge of the manga. Ironic really. Even more ironic because you dont know about Tsunade's statements and had no idea of Kisame's comparison of the Uchiha and the Sannin. Very ironic.

If we were both to sit an exam on the knowledge and understanding of the Naruto manga, I would score an A Grade. Based on the nonsense you spouted, I doubt you would even pass.

And its even more ironic how you talk to @Hussain like shit and mock his debating ability, when he is one of the best, most intelligent debaters on this board.

Take a look at the mirror. Youll see you are a hypocrite. And youll see you have an erection, which you wouldnt have if you didnt look at Tobirama so subjectively.

Its very shocking what ive heard from you today. Very shocking.



> I am objective because i base my opinion on canon.



*Tobirama being able to beat Hashirama is canon?*




> You dont - you just have some little fantasies of yurs that Tsunade can regrow her head


Its not a fantasy. The fantasy is Tobirama beheading someone who is stronger than him, and killing Hashirama as well.



> although manga contradicts that by Juubidara's words.


What words? Not that I care since Juubito's nonsense and Byakugo are two separate things that (to my knowledge) have never been compared.



> Plus, Tsunade has never shown that kind of regeneration.


*I repeat:* And Tobirama has never, ever demonstrated being the world's greatest ever water release user. Does that mean he isnt? Hiruzen has never, ever displayed having every jutsu in Konoha. Does that mean he doesnt have it. Orochimaru has never, ever displayed defeating and taming Manda like Kabuto said he did. Does that mean Orochimaru never did so? Chiyo/Sasori has never, ever displayed using 10 Puppets/100 Puppets collection to conquer a Castle/Nation. Does that mean they did not. Tsunade has never displayed being able to counter Chiyo's poisons. Does that mean she did not. Chiyo has never displayed mixing an antidote to Ibuse's poison like she said she did. Does that mean she did not? Kid Tsunade has never displayed Byakugo Sakura levels of strength as a kid. Does that mean she did not have such strength as a kid. Itachi (in manga) has never displayed physical evidence that he had a lover, even though Obito said he did ("he even killed his lover"). Does that mean Itachi did not have a girlfriend?

And anyway, based on Kishimoto's portrayal of Tsunade throughout this manga, the likelihood of her being able to regenerate her head (like she stated she could) is higher than the likelihood of going down to a Kunai (when V3 Susanoo Swords/Kusanagi/Mokuton/CST etc was not enough to put her down)



> Hussain is a troll who loves to write some non-canon bullsh*t, he rarely proves anything.


Jealous of his skills at debating? Hey, even I'm jealous sometimes.

He proved Tobirama is less talented than the same Hiruzen that is less talented than the Same Orochimaru who is an equal to Tsunade and in fact, inferior to her in the Sansukumi, but dont stop wanking Tobirama on my account.


> Hashirama was equal to Madara in CQC, who used his hand speed to block V2 Ei's punch and BM Naruto's Shunshin. That's enough already.


Whatever ...
He is slower than Tobirama ...
You said Tobirama can decapitate even though that is OOC ....
.... blah blah ....
you think he is > Hashirama.
So thats enough from you actually.

Where decapitations are concerned, this is from that Itachi vs Tsunade thread i did earlier this week/last week.


			
				Chatte/IzayaOrihara said:
			
		

> Many of you have stated that Tsunade would be put under genjutsu and then Itachi would behead her in a moment.
> *While this might be a possibility, the only time we have seen a beheading (in a one on one fight) is in Hidan and Kakuzu Arc.
> And that was because Hidan was standing still.
> 
> ...



I am not disregarding Tobirama's speed, but you cnanot disregard the truthfulness of that statement in relation to the Naruto manga



> She did CQC with him? Where and when exactly? When she had the support of other kages? Or when she teleported suddenly at the moment of Madara's attack on remaining shinobi, when he had no option but to block her kick?









> That was base Hashirama because he had no SM markings on him there. Nothing suggests he was in SM at that moment.


Okay, My Mistake. I remember that panel clearly now. But actually, i was talking about this:

I assumed they were going into CQC there.


> Also, Hashirama's DNA doesnt boost speed.


For the third time, I never said it did. Stop putting words in my mouth to cover up your own lack of understanding of a simple manga.


> Chose one of the two:
> 
> 1. Either you concede because i proved you wrong in this debate.
> 2. Or you concede because i proved you wrong in this debate.



You haven't done anything except say Tsunade cannot do something she said she could, and Tobirama can do something hes never shown.

Lol.

Its me that should be asking you that question.


> Juubidara's case proves Tsunade cant regrow her head. My other proofs prove that you are wrong in everything else.



What case?


> She hit Madara, not Mu. And Ei wasnt using his RCM.


Yeah my mistake.


> You are wanking Tsunade too much and do not know manga properly.


*Link Removed*
Coming from you? I had a simple misunderstanding. It is you who has poor knowledge. And how am i wanking Tsunade? I have a manga panel to support my argument. You do not. And Juubito nonsense whatever that is doesnt disprove Tsunade, because she said she could reconstruct all damaged parts and organs of her body. She knows her own limits. She said she can so she can. Juubito has nothing to do with that. Tsunade made these statements before Obito let alone Juubito even existed in this manga. If you feel Juubito has a better power, i dont care. You are a Tsunade hater anyway.



> As for everything else - that doesnt even come close to Tobirama being able to react to Juubito's Shunshin and hand speed. That's not even close to Tobirama's clone (!) touching Gudoudama before Minato could do that. Not even remotely close. Tobirama is a lot faster, to the point when he can speedblitz her with no effort. He either decapitates her or simply cut her head in half by his Suiton.


She regenerates from those attacks. She can regenerate any organ, including her heart and even her fucking brain, so no, Tobirama's suitononsense isnt doing anything. Either is his rusty old kunai.



> And Tobirama > base Minato.


Prove it.
Who else agrees with this.
@Hussain do you agree with this? Minato's power level can be a llittle confusing so I'll just go with whatever @Hussain's opinion on this is but until then, as far as im concerned, Base Minato is stronger.

Actually, now that I think about it, Minato is stronger.

Base Minato > Jiraiya
Jiraiya more or less= Orochimaru
Orochimaru > Tobirama
Orochimaru > Hiruzen > Tobirama

So yeah Base Minato is stronger.
Write a short essay proving he is stronger. And then ill think about changing my opinion, but then again, the manga does speak for itself.

And its funny you say I'm wanking Tsunade. I haven't even talked about Katsuyu yet so im not even taking her seriosuly yet let alone wanking her.

LETS SEE IF I CAN DIG OUT SOME CANON MANGA SCANS - OH ON THAT NOTE GET ME A PANEL OF TOBIRAMA BEHEADING SOMEONE WITH THE PHYSICAL STATS OF TSUNADE.







OH, FOUND THE SCANS
Katsuyu stands taller than Gamabunta, whom equalled a Bijuu in size.


A mini Katsuyu tanked KN6 cloak whereas KN4 almost disintegrated Orochimaru.


Mini Katsuyus (and Tsunade) tanked Chou Shinra Tensei (don't need a scan since you've shown that you know this happened).

So tell me, how is Tobirama taking down Katsuyu, who you've conveniently forgotten about. Focus on the specifics of the battle in question (Tobirama vs Tsunade) rather than bringing Juubito and his irrelevant ass into this. Tobirama could be faster than fucking Sonic the Hedgehog but it doesnt matter, cos he lacks a jutsu which can kill Tsunade. And Katsuyu for that fact.

If Tsunade summons Katsuyu before Tobirama is able to get an FTG mark on her, his attacks have no way of reaching her.

Its a battle of attrition. And Tsunade has Senju Reserves + Uzumaki Reserves + Senju/Uzumaki Lifeforce + Regeneration + Yin Seal Reserves + Class A Chakra Control as the World's Greatest Medical Ninja so i think Tsunade wins in that category.



> Kusanago went through her chesteasily.


Kusanagi can cut diamond. Tobirama's kunai cannot.



> In fact, it pierced her sternum easily. She has regeneration, but her durability is not all that cool.


Tobirama's durability is even lower. Much lower for that fact. So he's worse off in this battle than Tsunade is.


> She got damaged by almost everything that hit her


And the problem with this is that you are comparing Tobirama's Kunai to Chou Shinra Tensei, which she tanked while she was exhausted, and Kusanagi, which she took as a phobic wreck trying to protect Naruto, and Madaras V3 Swords which she took because she was attacking Susanoo at the time.


> except little YM, very little i might add.


I expect you to downplay Madara to make Tobirama look good, but it just aint working.


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## Veracity (May 21, 2016)

One some real Shit, Tsunade should clearly be able to regenerate limbs. Let's be real.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> One some real Shit, Tsunade should clearly be able to regenerate limbs. Let's be real.


Exactly.
And her head too.

"I can reconstruct any damaged parts and organs of my body".
Her head is a part of her body. Her brain is an organ.
Fire Release


> *Creation Rebirth*
> 
> 
> 
> *The absolute pinnacle of medical ninjutsu*, *created by the greatest of medical ninja*, Tsunade, it is the ultimate regeneration technique. By the great volume of chakra stored in her forehead at once, the body's cell division is forcibly stimulated by proteins, reconstructing all organs and all tissues making up the human body. The technique itself does not regenerate the old cells, rather it hastens the creation of new ones through division. If this technique is used, a body whose vital organs are so gravely injured that it cannot bear it any longer will be instantly restored to its uninjured state. By Tsunade's own claim, *as long as she has chakra it is impossible for her to die by any means, as such she gains a form of "immortality" throughout the duration of the technique.*[2]


What more proof is needed @StarWanderer and the rest of the Tsunade fanbase hatebase.
Meanwhile, @StarWanderer you go and get me the scan of Tobirama performing a decapitation.


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## UchihaX28 (May 21, 2016)

I disagree with that idea because regeneration of limbs is a power associated with Yin-Yang Release. I hardly find it realistic that Tsunade can function if her head is separated form her body.


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## Veracity (May 21, 2016)

Head is debatable, But limbs are not. People need to stop comparing Hashirama's regeneration to Tsunades anyway; they are not the same technique. The only thing similar between the two, is that they both don't require handseals. Tsunades, however, is the superior of the two via feats and hype.


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## Eliyua23 (May 21, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I think it's common sense that MS-Izuna was incredibly powerful. He was hailed as the second strongest Uchiha in the clan during the clan wars when arguably the Uchiha were at the height of their power, was depicted as frequently sparring with Madara, and had developed his Sharingan to the point of  Mangekyo. Taking those things into consideration how weak could Izuna really be...
> 
> I think it's kind of feat whorish to says Izuna needs feats to understand how good of an accomplishment Tobirama beating him and than going on to have a long career as a Ninja afterwards is.



Well not really I mean we see Sasuke have an MS and yet he underperformed until he was damn near blind in the danzo fight , and we dont even know how strong Madara was with MS as all his hype came with EMS and perfect susanoo , see thats the problem him and his brother haven't shown all the MS techs of Sasuke/Itachi , I mean we have found out thru countless battles that Susanoo was the bane of the MS yet we never saw that from Izuna , Sasuke was one of the most powerful people Bee ever fought but in the grand scheme of things he couldn't hold up against a Sannin until he went blind


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## UchihaX28 (May 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Head is debatable, But limbs are not. People need to stop comparing Hashirama's regeneration to Tsunades anyway; they are not the same technique. The only thing similar between the two, is that they both don't require handseals. Tsunades, however, is the superior of the two via feats and hype.



 I'm not, but creating something out of thin air is essentially Yin-Yang Release which people with only Rikudou's Power possesses.


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## IzayaOrihara (May 21, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I disagree with that idea because regeneration of limbs is a power associated with Yin-Yang Release. I hardly find it realistic that Tsunade can function if her head is separated form her body.


You disagree yet i bet you agree with the idea Itachi > Kaguya ....
.... just joking ...
Anyway, Hidan, Kisame (Zetsu) and Orochimaru all were functioning after some form of a decapitation. 

So ....


... and anyway how can you disagree. Why do you think your thoughts > manga facts?



Likes boss said:


> Head is debatable, But limbs are not. People need to stop comparing Hashirama's regeneration to Tsunades anyway; they are not the same technique. The only thing similar between the two, is that they both don't require handseals. Tsunades, however, is the superior of the two via feats and hype.


Exactly



Eliyua23 said:


> Sasuke was one of the most powerful people Bee ever fought but in the grand scheme of things he couldn't hold up against a Sannin until he went blind


What do you mean by this?


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## UchihaX28 (May 21, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> You disagree yet i bet you agree with the idea Itachi > Kaguya ....
> .... just joking ...
> Anyway, Hidan, Kisame (Zetsu) and Orochimaru all were functioning after some form of a decapitation.
> 
> So ....



And none of them have an anatomy even remotely close to Tsunade's. I'm not even discussing about whether or not she can survive decapitation. I'm referring to the idea of her regenerating limbs is unrealistic, so whether or not she survives decapitation doesn't matter to me if she can't regenerate her lost body parts.


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## Eliyua23 (May 21, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> You disagree yet i bet you agree with the idea Itachi > Kaguya ....
> .... just joking ...
> Anyway, Hidan, Kisame (Zetsu) and Orochimaru all were functioning after some form of a decapitation.
> 
> ...



Killer Bee stated when he fought Sasuke , he was one of the strongest people he had ever fought , Sasuke didn't reach Sannin level until Stage 4 susanoo after the Danzo fight where he went blind and needed Itachi's eyes


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## IzayaOrihara (May 21, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm not, but creating something out of thin air is essentially Yin-Yang Release which people with only Rikudou's Power possesses.





UchihaX28 said:


> Ugh, can't edit post, so hopefully you can see what I typed.


Sorry no, but your earlier post i quoted first - Tsunade regenerates her flesh, so no she doesnt need Rikudo rubbish/ She isnt making anything out of thin air.



> The absolute pinnacle of medical ninjutsu, created by the greatest of medical ninja, Tsunade, it is the ultimate regeneration technique. By the great volume of chakra stored in her forehead at once, the body's cell division is forcibly stimulated by proteins, reconstructing all organs and all tissues making up the human body. *The technique itself does not regenerate the old cells, rather it hastens the creation of new ones through division.* If this technique is used, a body whose vital organs are so gravely injured that it cannot bear it any longer will be instantly restored to its uninjured state. By Tsunade's own claim, as long as she has chakra it is impossible for her to die by any means, as such she gains a form of "immortality" throughout the duration of the technique.[2]





Eliyua23 said:


> Killer Bee stated when he fought Sasuke , he was one of the strongest people he had ever fought , Sasuke didn't reach Sannin level until Stage 4 susanoo after the Danzo fight where he went blind and needed Itachi's eyes


Oh i get it now. And yes i agree.

Off topic, but by that logic, Sannin > Killer Bee right?


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## IzayaOrihara (May 21, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm not, but creating something out of thin air is essentially Yin-Yang Release which people with only Rikudou's Power possesses.





UchihaX28 said:


> Ugh, can't edit post, so hopefully you can see what I typed.


Sorry no, but your earlier post i quoted first - Tsunade regenerates her flesh, so no she doesnt need Rikudo rubbish/ She isnt making anything out of thin air.



> The absolute pinnacle of medical ninjutsu, created by the greatest of medical ninja, Tsunade, it is the ultimate regeneration technique. By the great volume of chakra stored in her forehead at once, the body's cell division is forcibly stimulated by proteins, reconstructing all organs and all tissues making up the human body. *The technique itself does not regenerate the old cells, rather it hastens the creation of new ones through division.* If this technique is used, a body whose vital organs are so gravely injured that it cannot bear it any longer will be instantly restored to its uninjured state. By Tsunade's own claim, as long as she has chakra it is impossible for her to die by any means, as such she gains a form of "immortality" throughout the duration of the technique.[2]





Eliyua23 said:


> Killer Bee stated when he fought Sasuke , he was one of the strongest people he had ever fought , Sasuke didn't reach Sannin level until Stage 4 susanoo after the Danzo fight where he went blind and needed Itachi's eyes


Oh i get it now. And yes i agree.

Off topic, but by that logic, Sannin > Killer Bee since Sannin > Stage 4 Sasuke > MS Sasuke > Taka Sasuke = Killer Bee (Killer Bee is a bit higher since Sasuke had help, but anyway)

Because people usually wank Bee and say he trashes Sannin, something ive never understood


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## IzayaOrihara (May 21, 2016)

Sorry for double post, computer went mental, cant edit for some reason ..

Oh the mods will sort it out

I await your response @StarWanderer


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## Eliyua23 (May 21, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Sorry no, but your earlier post i quoted first - Tsunade regenerates her flesh, so no she doesnt need Rikudo rubbish/ She isnt making anything out of thin air.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sannin is slightly stronger , there is a reason Bee we see with Raikage restriction didn't fight much once he became hachibi host , but Bee did see Minato and thought the undeveloped MS Sasuke was a tough opponent , and he showed more with the MS overall than Izuna , Sasuke and Itachi when fighting CQC put up Susanoo why didn't Izuna , which shows he could be a great shinobi just like Bee thought Sasuke was with MS , but not at that Sannin level yet


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## Turrin (May 22, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> Well not really I mean we see Sasuke have an MS and yet he underperformed until he was damn near blind in the danzo fight , and we dont even know how strong Madara was with MS as all his hype came with EMS and perfect susanoo , see thats the problem him and his brother haven't shown all the MS techs of Sasuke/Itachi , I mean we have found out thru countless battles that Susanoo was the bane of the MS yet we never saw that from Izuna , Sasuke was one of the most powerful people Bee ever fought but in the grand scheme of things he couldn't hold up against a Sannin until he went blind


There's a big difference between Izuna and Sasuke. Izuna was hailed as the second greatest in the entire Clan; and this was during a time when all Ninja in the entire world were separated into Clans and the Uchiha Clan was ether tied for strongest next to the Senju or second strongest, and we know that the two top dogs were Tobirama/Hashirama, and Izuna was Tobirama's rival and equal in ability, up until Tobirama bested him. This essentially means that Izuna was superior to every Shinobi in the entire world sans Madara, Hashirama, and Tobirama, the latter of which he was close to, and even the former he was close enough to spare w/. 

Also even if Izuna only was comparable to MS-Sasuke, Tobirama beating someone on that level and than proceeding to have an illustrious career as a Ninja for many years after that is an enormous accomplishment. Who did any of the Sannin beat that is > MS-Sasuke, and than go on to have another decade or so to improve or at least become more experienced and knowledgable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## StarWanderer (May 22, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Get me scans for both of those.
> And frankly i dont care about Juubito. His regeneration a different type to what Tsunade uses.



I am not talking about Juubito - i am talking about Juubidara.

this

Senjutsu chakra boosts pretty much every ability shinobi has. Juubi's chakra - senjutsu-chakra. Hashirama's Sage Mode gave Madara a regeneration comparable to that of Tsunade. And on top of that SM he had Juubi's senjutsu chakra. That means, his regeneration was many times stronger than Tsunade's regeneration. 

If Juubidara almost died after gai took half of his torso, than Tsunade will die after decapitation. Plus, she has never shown the ability to regrow her brain.



IzayaOrihara said:


> And Tobirama has never, ever demonstrated being the world's greatest ever water release user. Does that mean he isnt? Hiruzen has never, ever displayed having every jutsu in Konoha. Does that mean he doesnt have it. Orochimaru has never, ever displayed defeating and taming Manda like Kabuto said he did. Does that mean Orochimaru never did so? Chiyo/Sasori has never, ever displayed using 10 Puppets/100 Puppets collection to conquer a Castle/Nation. Does that mean they did not. Tsunade has never displayed being able to counter Chiyo's poisons. Does that mean she did not. Chiyo has never displayed mixing an antidote to Ibuse's poison like she said she did. Does that mean she did not? Kid Tsunade has never displayed Byakugo Sakura levels of strength as a kid. Does that mean she did not have such strength as a kid. Itachi (in manga) has never displayed physical evidence that he had a lover, even though Obito said he did ("he even killed his lover"). Does that mean Itachi did not have a girlfriend?
> 
> Why would Tsunade lie? Stop taking her feats away and then wanking Tobirama and giving him feats he accomplished as an Edo with an immortal body and limitless stamina.



Well, Tobirama is canonically Suiton master and Hiruzen cant use every ninjutsu in Konoha, because he never used Hiraishin during the war when it will be so much useful.

There is nothing in canon that suggests Tsunade can regrow her head completely. Reconstruct damaged parts is one thing - regrow her entire head is another. 

So when you have a proof - comeback. Because for now, you dont. Plus, Juubidara's example proves Tsunade dies after her head being removed. 



IzayaOrihara said:


> Bitch please. *Bitch fucking please.*
> Middle panel, left hand side.



She said that she can *reconstruct any damaged part. *There is a difference between reconstructing damaged part and regrowing head completely. I see no proof.



IzayaOrihara said:


> What words? Not that I care since Juubito's nonsense and Byakugo are two separate things that (to my knowledge) have never been compared.



I'll post it here again. Someone with a lot better regeneration than Tsunade almost got killed after someone removed half of his torso. this



IzayaOrihara said:


> *I repeat:* And Tobirama has never, ever demonstrated being the world's greatest ever water release user. Does that mean he isnt? Hiruzen has never, ever displayed having every jutsu in Konoha. Does that mean he doesnt have it. Orochimaru has never, ever displayed defeating and taming Manda like Kabuto said he did. Does that mean Orochimaru never did so? Chiyo/Sasori has never, ever displayed using 10 Puppets/100 Puppets collection to conquer a Castle/Nation. Does that mean they did not. Tsunade has never displayed being able to counter Chiyo's poisons. Does that mean she did not. Chiyo has never displayed mixing an antidote to Ibuse's poison like she said she did. Does that mean she did not? Kid Tsunade has never displayed Byakugo Sakura levels of strength as a kid. Does that mean she did not have such strength as a kid. Itachi (in manga) has never displayed physical evidence that he had a lover, even though Obito said he did ("he even killed his lover"). Does that mean Itachi did not have a girlfriend?
> 
> And anyway, based on Kishimoto's portrayal of Tsunade throughout this manga, the likelihood of her being able to regenerate her head (like she stated she could) is higher than the likelihood of going down to a Kunai (when V3 Susanoo Swords/Kusanagi/Mokuton/CST etc was not enough to put her down)



She never stated such a thing. She said she can reconstruct damaged parts, she never said she can completely regrow parts of her body. Madara with Hashirama's Sage Mode which gives the same regeneration, couldnt. Juubidara could, but he had Juubi's senjutsu chakra on top of Hashirama's Sage Mode and nevertheless, he almost got killed. Why? Because Gai removed half of his torso, lol.

Orochimaru never dicapitated her, Susanoo swords never did that as well. Plus, she was close to dieing during the battle against Susanoos, but most of you forget that, yeah? this

And those are simple stabs, lol.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Jealous of his skills at debating? Hey, even I'm jealous sometimes.
> 
> He proved Tobirama is less talented than the same Hiruzen that is less talented than the Same Orochimaru who is an equal to Tsunade and in fact, inferior to her in the Sansukumi, but dont stop wanking Tobirama on my account.



Why should i be jealous when i beat him in pretty much every debate?

Also one interesting thing - talent isnt everything. Mark Hunt is less talented than Stefan Struve, but guess who got knocked out.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Whatever ...
> He is slower than Tobirama ...
> You said Tobirama can decapitate even though that is OOC ....
> .... blah blah ....
> ...



Yes he is, a little bit. And his Shunshin is slower than BM Naruto's. So he is weaker than Hashirama according to hype *and* feats. He cannot speedblitz him due to his Shunshin speed being too slow and Hashirama himself being super-fast, to the point he, although being slower, wont be speedblitzed by his brother. 

Minato threw kunai into Obito's head. I see no problem with Tobirama aiming for the head. Even if he doesnt, he wounds her, sees that she regenerates and puts her down by decapitating her.


In first panel, Madara effortlessly reacted to her punch and blocked it with Susanoo. In second, other Kage supported her, including lightened Ei. In third, that clone was "cornered" thanks to the combine efforts of all the Kage. this

She did nothing impressive. In fact, she never did anything to suggest that the Databook, where she had 3.5 in speed, lied.

I'll ignore all that bullsh*t with pictures and continue. 



IzayaOrihara said:


> Coming from you? I had a simple misunderstanding. It is you who has poor knowledge. And how am i wanking Tsunade? I have a manga panel to support my argument. You do not. And Juubito nonsense whatever that is doesnt disprove Tsunade, because she said she could reconstruct all damaged parts and organs of her body. She knows her own limits. She said she can so she can. Juubito has nothing to do with that. Tsunade made these statements before Obito let alone Juubito even existed in this manga. If you feel Juubito has a better power, i dont care. You are a Tsunade hater anyway.



That manga panel doesnt support your arguement, lol. And not Juubito - Juubidara.

Alright, so  i am a Tsunade hater? I lol'ed. 

Hashirama's regeneration = Tsunade's, manga proves that. this

Madara got Hashirama's regeneration without seals - couldnt regrow his hand. this this

But why? The same regeneration as Tsunade's and yet he couldnt regrow his own hand? 

That's right, dude - there is a difference between reconstructing damaged parts and completely regrowing new ones.

Later, Juubidara, who's regeneration is by miles better than tsunade's, almost got killed after Gai removed half of his torso. this

Juubidara's regeneration is so much better than Tsunade's, in fact, many times better, yet he almost got killed after recieving such damage. 

That means Tsunade cannot regrow her head. That's a simple Tsunade wanking, which contradicts the manga. 



IzayaOrihara said:


> She regenerates from those attacks. She can regenerate any organ, including her heart and even her fucking brain, so no, Tobirama's suitononsense isnt doing anything. Either is his rusty old kunai.



She cannot regrow a new brain - she can reconstruct a damaged one. I proved that.




IzayaOrihara said:


> Prove it.
> Who else agrees with this.
> @Hussain do you agree with this? Minato's power level can be a llittle confusing so I'll just go with whatever @Hussain's opinion on this is but until then, as far as im concerned, Base Minato is stronger.
> 
> ...



In most cases (not all of them, but most), styles make fights. That maths usually doesnt work. Tobirama proved himself to be faster than KCM Minato (his own physical movement speed being faster), thus he is a lot faster than base Minato. He can use that speed advantage.

By the way, why do you post that girl so often? Do you look just like her? Some afro-american beautiful babe? 

He speedblitz her before she can summon Katsuyu. Why? Because his clone's Shunshin was faster than KCM Minato's movement speed. this this this

And why cant he simply teleport Katsuyu away?



IzayaOrihara said:


> Kusanagi can cut diamond. Tobirama's kunai cannot.



And Tsunade has never demonstrated a durability good enough to say she can tank Tobirama's kunai.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Tobirama's durability is even lower. Much lower for that fact. So he's worse off in this battle than Tsunade is.



Doesnt matter.



IzayaOrihara said:


> And the problem with this is that you are comparing Tobirama's Kunai to Chou Shinra Tensei, which she tanked while she was exhausted, and Kusanagi, which she took as a phobic wreck trying to protect Naruto, and Madaras V3 Swords which she took because she was attacking Susanoo at the time.



She tanked a direct CST? Wanna see a scan.

And do not forget than Kakashi, for example, withstood ST. ST differs in power, you know.

She has no feats to suggest kunai cant cut her head off.



IzayaOrihara said:


> I expect you to downplay Madara to make Tobirama look good, but it just aint working.



LOL just look at the size of those things. this


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## StarWanderer (May 22, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> What more proof is needed @StarWanderer and the rest of the Tsunade fanbase hatebase.
> Meanwhile, @StarWanderer you go and get me the scan of Tobirama performing a decapitation.



Madara had the same regeneration - couldnt regrow his hand. Juubidara had even better regeneration - almost got killed after Gai took off half of his torso. And Tsunade herself was coughing blood after Madara's Susanoo swords simply stabbed her, provoking Ei to say that she'll die if she continue to fight like that.

So you can throw that Databook statement out of the window, because it contradicts the manga completely.

And everything that contradicts the manga =/= canon.



Likes boss said:


> Head is debatable, But limbs are not. People need to stop comparing Hashirama's regeneration to Tsunades anyway; they are not the same technique. The only thing similar between the two, is that they both don't require handseals. Tsunades, however, is the superior of the two via feats and hype.



It is said that Hashirama's regeneration is the same as Tsunade's and Madara survived (regenerated) his body after sand pierced all over the place. Link removed

It's up to you to prove their regeneration isnt the same, because the manga supports that it actually is.

Plus, Juubidara, with regeneration far superior to Tsunades, almost got killed due to losing half of his torso. Link removed

Tsunade cannot regrow her head, that's your fanfic and nothing more.


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## UchihaX28 (May 22, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Sorry no, but your earlier post i quoted first - Tsunade regenerates her flesh, so no she doesnt need Rikudo rubbish/ She isnt making anything out of thin air.



All that tells me is that she causes pre-existing cells to multiply rapidly which can heal damaged muscle tissue and repair major damage to the organs which aligns perfectly to what the manga displayed. That doesn't convey to me that she simply can regenerate lost body-parts because that's essentially a representation of Yin-Yang Release which is only possible through Rikudou's Chakra.

Yin Release to create something out of nothing (the foundation of the limb) and Yang Release to breathe life into that said body-part (supplying it with blood, bone, cells, etc).


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## Nox (May 22, 2016)

OFC he is overrated. It comes with the territory. The man afterall is the GOAT Kage to have ever graced the manga. Its not his fault people can't help but affix themselves on the d*ck that is his hype.


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## StarWanderer (May 22, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> All that tells me is that she causes pre-existing cells to multiply rapidly which can heal damaged muscle tissue and repair major damage to the organs which aligns perfectly to what the manga displayed. That doesn't convey to me that she simply can regenerate lost body-parts because that's essentially a representation of Yin-Yang Release which is only possible through Rikudou's Chakra.
> 
> Yin Release to create something out of nothing (the foundation of the limb) and Yang Release to breathe life into that said body-part (supplying it with blood, bone, cells, etc).



By the way, what do you think about Minato's and Tobirama's Shunshin speed? It may look as Obito could keep up with Minato's Shunshin in some panels, but those moments could be a simple running, not Shunshin. And we saw what Tobirama, whose Shunshin was slower than Minato's, was capable off.

I still think that Tobirama's clone shunshinning to Gudoudama before KCM Minato could touch it is a great display of how fast Tobirama's Shunshin is and, on top of that, how fast Minato's Shunshin is. But i may be wrong about all of that.

What do you think?


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## UchihaX28 (May 22, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> By the way, what do you think about Minato's and Tobirama's Shunshin speed? It may look as Obito could keep up with Minato's Shunshin in some panels, but those moments could be a simple running, not Shunshin. And we saw what Tobirama, whose Shunshin was slower than Minato's, was capable off.



I think they're roughly around Base Raikage's Shunshin. Not too impressive, but their speed really shines when they use FTG, mostly Tobirama because his reactions and strike speed far outstrips Minato's and unlike Minato's, he executes a very fast strike instantly after using FTG which improves the execution of his technique.



> I still think that Tobirama's clone shunshinning to Gudoudama before KCM Minato could touch it is a great display of how fast Tobirama's Shunshin is and, on top of that, how fast Minato's Shunshin is. But i may be wrong about all of that.
> 
> What do you think?



I think it's impressive too as he not only Flickered there, but he also reached out his arm to grab the Gudoudama in the time it took for KCM Minato to move his arm a few inches. Essentially, he not only flickered there, but he also brought his arm out to grab it whereas Minato could only remain stationary and attempted to grab it (which still failed). That's how I see it anyways.


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## StarWanderer (May 22, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I think they're roughly around Base Raikage's Shunshin. Not too impressive, but their speed really shines when they use FTG, mostly Tobirama because his reactions and strike speed far outstrips Minato's and unlike Minato's, he executes a very fast strike instantly after using FTG which improves the execution of his technique.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's impressive too as he not only Flickered there, but he also reached out his arm to grab the Gudoudama in the time it took for KCM Minato to move his arm a few inches. Essentially, he not only flickered there, but he also brought his arm out to grab it whereas Minato could only remain stationary and attempted to grab it (which still failed). That's how I see it anyways.



Alright.

However, why their Shunshin speed is roughly at base Raikage's level? We saw Minato being physically faster than long-ranged Kamui absorbtion: Link removed

And Tobirama shunshinned there and touched Gudoudama before Minato, amped by Kurama's chakra, could.


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## UchihaX28 (May 22, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Alright.
> 
> However, why their Shunshin speed is roughly at base Raikage's level? We saw Minato being physically faster than long-ranged Kamui absorbtion: Link removed
> 
> And Tobirama shunshinned there and touched Gudoudama before Minato, amped by Kurama's chakra, could.



 It was a coordinated attack and that was SM Minato who is faster than War Arc SM Naruto who possessed body speed that seemed to have surpassed someone on V1 Raikage's speed caliber. SM Minato is much faster by far, but it was a coordinated attack.

 I mostly believe Base Minato = Base Raikage's Shunshin based on C's statement (Viz Translation) and I explained why that is in my previous posts. I think Tobirama's performance still wouldn't contradict that idea. After all, Base Bee could intercept V1 Raikage's own strike speed, so it's not too ridiculous for a slower beings Shunshin to outstrip one's own strike speed. I think it's very impressive however, that Tobirama didn't just flicker, but also grabbed it as well before KCM Minato's arm could move a few inches. That places Tobirama's own physical speed on such a high pedestal honestly.


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## Eliyua23 (May 22, 2016)

Turrin said:


> There's a big difference between Izuna and Sasuke. Izuna was hailed as the second greatest in the entire Clan; and this was during a time when all Ninja in the entire world were separated into Clans and the Uchiha Clan was ether tied for strongest next to the Senju or second strongest, and we know that the two top dogs were Tobirama/Hashirama, and Izuna was Tobirama's rival and equal in ability, up until Tobirama bested him. This essentially means that Izuna was superior to every Shinobi in the entire world sans Madara, Hashirama, and Tobirama, the latter of which he was close to, and even the former he was close enough to spare w/.
> 
> Also even if Izuna only was comparable to MS-Sasuke, Tobirama beating someone on that level and than proceeding to have an illustrious career as a Ninja for many years after that is an enormous accomplishment. Who did any of the Sannin beat that is > MS-Sasuke, and than go on to have another decade or so to improve or at least become more experienced and knowledgable.



But just like in Sasuke/Itachi's time having the MS was rare even amongst the Uchiha so i would say based upon what little we know of the clan I'd wager to say Sasuke would be right behind Madara if he were apart of the clan during those times , and remember the modern times had more expansion and had more powerful ninja who weren't Hashirama/Madara who came along some even stronger than Tobirama (Minato,Kabuto,Nagato,Danzo) ect , while thats impressive that Tobirama could defeat an MS user and get stronger and that would suffice comparing him to most ninja , but the Sannin were the rare ninja's that seemed to get stronger as they got older , gaining more abilities and we're comparing Sannin at the time they were in modern manga , and at that time Jiraiya was stronger than MS user who actually had stage 4 susanoo , could have defeated a Rinnegan user who should be above the standard MS user , Orochimaru basically took Tobirama's technique and blew him out of the water with it , tons of research and preparation was able to toy with the ninja Hiruzen who stood above the shinobi world at the time of his death , Tsunade the combat feats certainly put her at a disadvantage but look at what she did in a supportive role and what she could have done with more chakra stored


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## StarWanderer (May 22, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> It was a coordinated attack and that was SM Minato who is faster than War Arc SM Naruto who possessed body speed that seemed to have surpassed someone on V1 Raikage's speed caliber. SM Minato is much faster by far, but it was a coordinated attack.
> 
> I mostly believe Base Minato = Base Raikage's Shunshin based on C's statement (Viz Translation) and I explained why that is in my previous posts. I think Tobirama's performance still wouldn't contradict that idea. After all, Base Bee could intercept V1 Raikage's own strike speed, so it's not too ridiculous for a slower beings Shunshin to outstrip one's own strike speed. I think it's very impressive however, that Tobirama didn't just flicker, but also grabbed it as well before KCM Minato's arm could move a few inches. That places Tobirama's own physical speed on such a high pedestal honestly.



Minato threw his kunai after Kakashi activated Kamui. Furthermore, he had to activate SM after that and create Rassengan.

I remember C saying that Ei's reflexes are on par with those of Minato and that's all.

What i'm trying to say is that placing Minato's and Tobirama's Shunshin at V1 Ei's caliber is a little bit of downplaying their abilities. Example with Ei is a good one, however i dont remember him having such an impressive striking speed (not combined with Shunshin) to say that Bee's Shunshin is realy fast if he could intercept V1 Ei's attack.

Tobirama's clone shunshinned to Gudoudama and touched it before KCM Minato could do the same. If Minato with SM could do all of those things before long-ranged Kamui ended, just imagine how fast Tobirama's Shunshin is if he could do all of that before KCM Minato grabbed Gudoudama.

Maybe i didnt understand you correctly, i dont know. I am tired right now because i had lot of work so i can be as dumb as a spoon right now.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 22, 2016)

Why don't we say Hiraishin and kamui are slower than Gaara's sand wall because it went first and finished before either of them and use that argue Gaara's reflexes are faster than V2 Ei.


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## StarWanderer (May 22, 2016)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Why don't we say Hiraishin and kamui are slower than Gaara's sand wall because it went first and finished before either of them and use that argue Gaara's reflexes are faster than V2 Ei.



Gaara's reflexes have nothing to do with the quickness of his sand, but yeah - his sand is damn fast.


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## Turrin (May 22, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> But just like in Sasuke/Itachi's time having the MS was rare even amongst the Uchiha so i would say based upon what little we know of the clan I'd wager to say Sasuke would be right behind Madara if he were apart of the clan during those times , and remember the modern times had more expansion and had more powerful ninja who weren't Hashirama/Madara who came along some even stronger than Tobirama (Minato,Kabuto,Nagato,Danzo) ect , while thats impressive that Tobirama could defeat an MS user and get stronger and that would suffice comparing him to most ninja


I think you need to clarify what MS-Sauske your talking about. Is it the one who just go MS that faced B or is it the one who had time to gain some experience w/ MS who faced Danzo? If it's the latter I could buy MS-Sasuke being the baseline for Izuna's strength, but if it's the former I can't.



> gaining more abilities and we're comparing Sannin at the time they were in modern manga , and at that time Jiraiya was stronger than MS user who actually had stage 4 susanoo , could have defeated a Rinnegan user who should be above the standard MS user


Like I said you can make a case for Jiraiya being equal to Tobirama, but only Jiraiya.



> Orochimaru basically took Tobirama's technique and blew him out of the water with it , tons of research


Orochimaru being better at 1 technique does not make him better than Tobirama. That's the same thing as saying the moment Naruto learned Fuuton Rasengan he was better than Minato.



> and preparation was able to toy with the ninja Hiruzen who stood above the shinobi world at the time of his death


First if your going to take PI Hiruzen statements seriously, than Fanbook stated he was equal to Orochimaru and yeah he had heavy advantages in that fight, Prep for specific Tensei and being able to control the battlefield via the S4 Barrier; and even still Hiruzen nearly forced a draw.

Secondly, by stand atop the shinobi world I assume you mean Hiruzen hype as the Strongest Gokage, but not only is this hype dubious at best in light Hiruzen Retecons, but even if we accept it, given Onoki's display and his own extremely positive portrayal, I say at best Old-Hiruzen was ever so slightly stronger then him, I.E. they are basically the same level w/ Hiruzen just being a shade better; Tobirama is more than a shade better than Onoki / Old-Hiruzen.



> Tsunade the combat feats certainly put her at a disadvantage but look at what she did in a supportive role and what she could have done with more chakra stored


I have and I would place her around Orochimaru's "level" because of it, but it's an inferior level to Tobirama.


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## Eliyua23 (May 22, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I think you need to clarify what MS-Sauske your talking about. Is it the one who just go MS that faced B or is it the one who had time to gain some experience w/ MS who faced Danzo? If it's the latter I could buy MS-Sasuke being the baseline for Izuna's strength, but if it's the former I can't.
> 
> 
> Like I said you can make a case for Jiraiya being equal to Tobirama, but only Jiraiya.
> ...



I'm talking about Sasuke during the Kages Arc before he went blind , Sasuke like naruto had reached maybe even slightly surpassed Sannin level but they were hindered by Kyuubi/blindness I'm just saying based on what we saw Izuna was not stronger than that Sasuke which means he's weaker than the Sannin 

Ok

But he's decisively better , in the way that Minato is decisively better with FTG which puts him above Tobirama , not saying that makes him much stronger if at all but that is a strong consideration for them being close in power 

Only thing that was retconned was him being stronger than hashirama but Senju/Uchiha was the reason for that nothing suggest besides maybe power scaling that he wasn't the strongest Gokage , thats my point Hiruzen was strong as fuck , on order to damn near beat Orochimaru , but orochimaru was docking around and not instantly going for the kill , I'm going to look at the data the way we look at it with Jiraiya and Orochimaru , Jiraiya .5 better than orochimaru , Orochimaru was .5 better than Hiruzen but after Minato's death he was still strongest Kage at that time , definitely better than Kage Arc Sasuke pre stage 4 Susanoo.

I dont think so I think Tobirama holds about the same gap in advantage that orochimaru holds meaning he's slightly above but not far above them , that would put him on Danzo level and I always saw Danzo and Prime Hiruzen as being close and Hiruzen was stronger than Tobirama in their flashback , the old hiruzen aint THAT far behind as he would be say Minato,Nagato,Danzo,Kabuto 

Tobirama has her beat combat wise, but Tsunade's better in support at best Tobirama maybe an inch stronger


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## Icegaze (May 22, 2016)

tobirama isn't overrated
he invented what has been referred to twice in the war as the most powerful ninjutsu.

granted he didn't perfect it, i.e couldn't perform the ET own techniques, but he created technique(s) S for plural with the ET which made them very effective regardless

you combine ET and hirashin and honestly you will realise he aint overrated

kage bunshin, ET and hirashin are 3 techniques that have found their way to be horrendously useful in the manga. tobirama created and used all 3 as a matter of habit

I would easily put him on the same level as the likes of minato and itachi. however claiming he is nagato level is simply wrong and hilarious


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## hbcaptain (May 22, 2016)

Some minority is placing him at Sannin level (greatly underrating him) and the other one places him above KCM Minato (greatly overrating him) . But general consensus places him at Base Minato's level (slightly below him) , so no he isn't overrated at all .


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## UchihaX28 (May 22, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Some minority is placing him at Sannin level (greatly underrating him) and the other one places him above KCM Minato (greatly overrating him) . But general consensus places him at Base Minato's level (slightly below him) , so no he isn't overrated at all .



 Right .... Being slightly below Base Minato is fine with you because you're a Minato fan. 

 What if he's slightly above Base Minato? What happens then?


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## Icegaze (May 22, 2016)

not really why there is such animosity from minato fans when it comes to tobirama

he isn't minato and doesn't fight like minato

they have 2 jutsu in common and use them very differently that it

almost like comparing kakashi and obito because they both have kamui.

some go on like loosing to kin gin is so bad but kin gin with the 5 treasures for me are clearly more dangerous than what kishi had time to show

then again might as well call hanzo weak, if we gonna go with war arc which trolled a bunch of good characters


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## Itachi san88 (May 22, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Right .... Being slightly below Base Minato is fine with you because you're a Minato fan.
> 
> What if he's slightly above Base Minato? What happens then?


Are you crazy? Minato fans are so upset since 2013 because Hashirama>Minato (and some Minato fanboys in this forum still don't accept it), and now... Tobirama>base Minato?? come on, man, try to understand

Reactions: Winner 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 22, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> I am not talking about Juubito - i am talking about Juubidara.
> above


And what does this prove? He almost died cos Gai was pummeling him. Tsunade was actually cut in half, and I don't think she, being a medical ninja/having Katsuyu/Senjuzumaki life force, was anywhere near death.





> Senjutsu chakra boosts pretty much every ability shinobi has. Juubi's chakra - senjutsu-chakra. Hashirama's Sage Mode gave Madara a regeneration comparable to that of Tsunade.


It was stated Hashirama's was inferior to Tsunade's. Tsunade can regenerate limbs. Hashirama cannot, hence why Madara took a Shirozetsu arm when the Bijuus hacked it off. And you cant prove Juubi chakra enhances it to the level of Tsunade, who can regenerate limbs. The comparison between them was that neither jutsu required hand seals.


> And on top of that SM he had Juubi's senjutsu chakra. That means, his regeneration was many times stronger than Tsunade's regeneration.


That's just baseless speculation. None of it is factual.


> If Juubidara almost died after gai took half of his torso, than Tsunade will die after decapitation.


Wrong, based on above scans.


> Plus, she has never shown the ability to regrow her brain.


Doesn't matter, based on below scan.

You keep repeating the "hasnt shown" argument and keep ignoring the manga panels i provided. Thats like saying Hanzo never defeated the Sannin because we were never shown the actual fight.

Let me ask you two things.

Tsunade can "reconstruct all damaged parts and organs of her body".
Her head is a part of her body. Her brain is an organ.
Thus, Byakugo Tsunade can survive a decapitation (which wont even be happening in this battle anyway). Yes or No? Based on the Canon Manga.


> Well, Tobirama is canonically Suiton master


According to you he isnt, because even though it was said, it was never shown. Kisame has better feats.

So what if Madara maybe had a better feat as you say. Its not Tsunade's fault shes never been decapitated. In fact thats a good thing, showing how battle able she is.


> and Hiruzen cant use every ninjutsu in Konoha, because he never used Hiraishin during the war when it will be so much useful.


Konoha jutsu could mean many things. It could mean
- Everything
- Everything except Kekkei/Genkai Hiden
- Just elemental techs
So i cant answer that


> There is nothing in canon that suggests Tsunade can regrow her head completely. Reconstruct damaged parts is one thing - regrow her entire head is another.
> 
> So when you have a proof - comeback. Because for now, you dont. Plus, Juubidara's example proves Tsunade dies after her head being removed.



You keep repeating the "hasnt shown" argument and keep ignoring the manga panels i provided. Thats like saying Hanzo never defeated the Sannin because we were never shown the actual fight.

Let me ask you two things.

Tsunade can "reconstruct all damaged parts and organs of her body".
Her head is a part of her body. Her brain is an organ.
Thus, Byakugo Tsunade can survive a decapitation (which wont even be happening in this battle anyway). Yes or No? Based on the Canon Manga.

Juubidara uses a different type of regeneration. Madara was unable to regenerate limbs. Tsunade can regenerate limbs. So I don't see how Hashirama's regen is better than Tsunade's. It was even stated it was not.


> She said that she can *reconstruct any damaged part. *There is a difference between reconstructing damaged part and regrowing head completely. I see no proof.


She was cut in half. If her body is bisected at her neck then she will survive because she survived a bisection at the waist. That is more than simple damage.

You are just being a nitpicker and worrying too much about semantics. Tsunade has twice shown she regenerate her spinal cord which is a huge feat.

You not only ignored my scans but ignored by examples where Kisame, Hidan and Orochimaru functioned after some form of decapitation. Neither of them are medical ninja. Neither of them have Byakugo. Neither of them have Senjuzumaki life force (well, Hidan is immortal, so ill give you that one).



Orochimaru took 4x Chakra Scalpel to the neck - it is an internal cut, which Kabuto suggested would have killed Rusty Tsunade if it hit her neck.

So Orochimaru was "decapitated" in a way, and still used a jutsu after. So Byakugo stays active after Tsunades head gets lopped off, not that Tobirama will even achieve this, but yeah.

SO yeah, Tsunade is regrowing her head, or regrowing a new body from the severed head, either way, but id go with the first, considering manga writers besides the write of fairy tail dont like to use unnecessary nudity - they try to avoid it.

I don't see why you are clutching at straws. Do you have a vendetta against Tsunade.



> I'll post it here again. Someone with a lot better regeneration than Tsunade almost got killed after someone removed half of his torso. above



Two things:
His regeneration is not better. He cant regenerate limbs. Tsunade can.
They are completely different types.



> She never stated such a thing. She said she can reconstruct damaged parts, she never said she can completely regrow parts of her body. *Madara with Hashirama's Sage Mode which gives the same regeneration, *couldnt. Juubidara could, but he had Juubi's senjutsu chakra on top of Hashirama's Sage Mode and nevertheless, he almost got killed. Why? Because Gai removed half of his torso, lol.



*YOU CAN NOT FUCKING PROVE THIS. THAT IS YOUR OWN BASELESS SPECULATION. SO WHAT, MADARA CANT REGENERATE LIMBS, BUT SM GIVES HIM THE ABILITY TO DO SO? NOPE. HE NEEDED ZETSU TO GIVE HIM A SPARE ARM. TSUNADE CAN REGENERATE LIMBS, SPINAL CORDS, FLESH WOUNDS, STAB WOUNDS, AND 3 PEOPLE IN THIS MANGA WERE ABLE TO FUNCTION THEIR MIND AND/OR THEIR CHAKRA AFTER SOME FORM OF A DECAPITATION. IN HIDANS CASE IT WAS THE FORMER, IN KISAMES CASE IT WAS THE FORMER, IN OROCHIMARUS CASE IT WAS BOTH.*



> Orochimaru never dicapitated her


Never said he did, for the 10th time now. Stop putting words into my mouth.



> , Susanoo swords never did that as well. Plus, she was close to *dieing during the battle against Susanoos,* but most of you forget that, yeah? above


Nope. Didnt even open the scan. Dont need to.
She fought 5 V3 Clones then still had enough chakra to power up mega jinton. She and the other kages survived the encounter with PS. She deflected a katon, and thats when Byakugo ran out, and even when she was in two halves, she was talking about saving the other kage, so not once in that entire section of the manga was she close to dying. You are now just making up facts and lying.


> And those are simple stabs, lol.


Kusanagi/V3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tobirama's Kunai.



> Why should i be jealous when i beat him in pretty much every debate?


No, what you do is what you are doing to me now.
You make up facts and then insult the other debater, hoping they will back down, but it wont work on me.



> Also one interesting thing - talent isnt everything. Mark Hunt is less talented than Stefan Struve, but guess who got knocked out.


1. Thats your opinion
2. Ive never even heard of these people - im guessing they are boxerd
3. Boxing isnt Naruto


> Yes he is, a little bit. And his Shunshin is slower than BM Naruto's. So he is weaker than Hashirama according to hype *and* feats. He cannot speedblitz him due to his Shunshin speed being too slow and Hashirama himself being super-fast, to the point he, although being slower, wont be speedblitzed by his brother.
> 
> Minato threw kunai into Obito's head. I see no problem with Tobirama aiming for the head. Even if he doesnt, he wounds her, sees that she regenerates and puts her down by decapitating her.


The point is this.
Tobirama can decapitate anyone slower than himself if i use your logic.
Hashirama cannot survive a decapitation if i use your logic.
So your logic says Tobirama > Hashirama.

Oh and once again, giving Minato's feats to Tobirama


> In first panel, Madara effortlessly reacted to her punch and blocked it with Susanoo. In second, other Kage supported her, including lightened Ei. In third, that clone was "cornered" thanks to the combine efforts of all the Kage. above
> 
> She did nothing impressive. In fact, she never did anything to suggest that the Databook, where she had 3.5 in speed, lied.
> 
> I'll ignore all that bullsh*t with pictures and continue.


So its Madaras fault he cowered into Susanoo? Tsunade went into CQC with him, end of.



> That manga panel doesnt support your arguement, lol. And not Juubito - Juubidara.
> 
> Alright, so  i am a Tsunade hater? I lol'ed.


Yes it does.

And it does seem as if you hate her. Why say she cant do something shes said/proved she can, but then use OOC arguments for Tobirama and give him minato's feats. It just doens't make sense.


> Hashirama's regeneration = Tsunade's, manga proves that. above


Tsunade can regenerate limbs. Hashirama cannot.


> Madara got Hashirama's regeneration without seals - couldnt regrow his hand. above above
> 
> But why? The same regeneration as Tsunade's and yet he couldnt regrow his own hand?


Hashirama and Tsunade have different regeneration powers. Tsunade's is a medical ninjutsu which uses chakra from her yin seal to stimulate cell multiplication blah blah ... hashirama's own power did not get that description

You saying it is the same is just poor understanding of the manga on your part.

How would madara know its the same power? He didnt have Hashirama's power at the time as an edo, and had only just seen Byakugo

Like i stated before, the comparison he made was not between the potency of the healing, it was that they both lacked hand seals. Read what he says

Again, your poor understanding of a simple manga




			
				Databook 4 said:
			
		

> This ability has the advantage of healing most damage that the user sustains without the need for hand seals. In this regard,  compares it to 's . This ability does not rival it in power, however, as it was unable to regenerate missing limbs or organs. The enhanced regeneration granted by the cells is so rapid that even dozens of puncture wounds, on top of various injuries inflicted by the combined physical assault of all nine were completely healed in mere moments, with the exception of a severed arm, which Madara instead replaced with the arm of a White Zetsu clone.


The comparison was based on the fact neither technique needed hand seals. Tsunade's regeneration limits are higher than that of Hashirama's.

This was said before Madara saw Byakugo, but then



And Byakugo is superior above




> That's right, dude - there is a difference between reconstructing damaged parts and completely regrowing new ones.



Shes not regrowing it. She is using cells in her body to multiply to create new cells and form a new head with a new brain. If the brain is what multiplies then she forms a new body, but it would be naked, and considering this is not Fairy Tail, the former is what would happen. I dont care if it doesnt completely make sense - this is Naruto, where bodyless heads can talk, and Tsunade can move her body when her spine is destroyed.


> Later, Juubidara, who's regeneration is by miles better than tsunade's, almost got killed after Gai removed half of his torso. above


Stop saying this rubbish. Madara cant regenerate an arm. Tsunade can. Hashirama's regen only regenerates wounds.






All you have done in this post is insinuate Tsunade cant regenerate half of her torso. Which is false. The reason Madara almost died is because he cant regenerate organs. The Kick Gai delivered hit his left side. If it had crushed his heart that would have been the end of Madara. If it was Tsunade, she would have regenerated. She can reconstruct new organs and heads and asses and toenails and pussies using the remaining cells in her body. She is like Cell from DBZ. As long as a cell of her body remains, it will multiply to form the fresh original body that existed in the first place.



> Juubidara's regeneration is so much better than Tsunade's, in fact, many times better, yet he almost got killed after recieving such damage.


Say that one more time and i will smack you through my computer lol. Ive proved you wrong. Your understanding of this manga is soooooo amateur and mediocre its so sad.



> That means Tsunade cannot regrow her head. That's a simple Tsunade wanking, which contradicts the manga.


I have scans, comparisons, feats, the works.
Tsunade can regenerate her head.
And even if she couldnt, it doesnt matter, as tobirama isnt decapitating her.


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## IzayaOrihara (May 22, 2016)

> She cannot regrow a new brain - she can reconstruct a damaged one. I proved that.



It was never specified that it had to be heart cells to regenerate her heart for example. It works with any cell in the body.

All you've proved is how misogynistic you are.

The funny thing is, if it was Itachi that could use Sozo Saisei and made those statements, people would agree he can regenerate his head. People just hate Tsunade because she is a woman and its sad.




> In most cases (not all of them, but most), styles make fights. That maths usually doesnt work. Tobirama proved himself to be faster than KCM Minato (his own physical movement speed being faster), thus he is a lot faster than base Minato. He can use that speed advantage.
> 
> Why do you keep posting that girl? Do you look like her or something? Some Afro American beautiful babe.


I dont care about what youve written here. Manga/Databook proves Sannin > Tobirama and Base Minato > Tobirama anyhow you put it.


I'm a 17 year old boy,, so I doubt i look  anything like her. Its just that, the faces she made in those images were the same faces i made when reading your post, so it felt right to post them. I watch a reality show she in called Love & Hip Hop, so I remember her reaction faces. I remembered them because i made those same faces when reading your post.

And yes, she is beautiful (my future waifu lol!!!)



> He speedblitz her before she can summon Katsuyu. Why? Because his clone's Shunshin was faster than KCM Minato's movement speed. above Link removed Link removed


And do what, stab her in the heart? If shes in Byakugo she laughs at him and keeps summoning.


> And why cant he simply teleport Katsuyu away?


To where. IIRC, Hiraishin works like this: you place a marking somewhere, and you teleport anything you touch and/or yourself to that mark. And Tobirama can a only do one mark at a time. If he takes Katsuyu from Japan to Zimbabwe, then he just has to fight Katsuyu there, and then waste stamina running back to Tsunade, and since no mark is on her, that decapitation fantasy of yours aint happening. When Tsunade sees him coming, she just summons Katsuyu again and again. Katsuyu isnt miles away in Shikkotsurin. She will be in the same battlefield, so she has enough chakra too spam summoning. Not that shed be exhausted since she has byakugo reserves. And Tobirama cant injure Katsuyu, so when she comes out, all Tobirama can do is waste chakra.


> And Tsunade has never demonstrated a durability good enough to say she can tank Tobirama's kunai.


YM > Kunai
CST > Kunai
Chakra Scalpel > Kunai
Kusanagi/V3 Swords never cut her in half, so a Kunai isnt taking off her head


> Doesnt matter.


Does matter. Because when he runs out of chakra to play whack-a-mole, he's gonna have to break the fourth wall, open the manga and read what Orochimaru says to Kabuto here.


We saw Katsuyu cover everyone. We didnt see Tsunade with any cover. We saw her injured, even though she wasnt injured before that, showing she wasnt covered by Katsuyu so got those scratches and dirt from CST.



She was seen near rubble, no Katsuyu in sight

Everyone else was fighting so they got their clothes damaged before CST happened, whereas Tsunade was healing, so the only thing that hit her in that arc was CST



This is why i say you hate Tsunade. Kakashi tanked a mini ST and you compare it to Tsuande who tanked a CST capable of destroying Konoha. What the fuck is wrong with you?


> She has no feats to suggest kunai cant cut her head off.


Yes she does.
And Tobirama has no feats to suggest he can land a decapitation on her without problem. Like i said the one time in the manga we saw a decapitation in a 1 v 1 was when Hidan was standing still.
And besides, Tsunade can survive a decapitation due to Byakugo.




> LOL just look at the size of those things. Link removed


In width it spanned Madara's Susanoo hand, the same kind of hand that held Danzo's entire body. And the explosion covered Tsunade's body and sent her flying into a pile of rocks. Dont water down her feats. Kunai is only strong enough to get cracked by Susanoo anyway. Scans?






StarWanderer said:


> *Madara had the same regeneration* - couldnt regrow his hand. Juubidara had even better regeneration - almost got killed after Gai took off half of his torso. And Tsunade herself was coughing blood after Madara's Susanoo swords simply stabbed her, *provoking Ei to say that she'll die if she continue to fight like that.*


No he didnt. Already established. And so what if she coughed blood, is she not a human? STOP WATERING HER FEATS DOWN.

And who is Raikage to be opening his dirty mouth, considering Tsunade was beating those Susanoos and he got caught in a Genjutsu and had to be saved by Onoki, who couldnt do any Jinton without tsunade towards the end of the fight.



> *So you can throw that Databook statement out of the window, because it contradicts the manga completely.*
> 
> And everything that contradicts the manga =/= canon.


You Are Wrong.




> *It is said that Hashirama's regeneration is the same as Tsunade's *and Madara survived (regenerated) his body after sand pierced all over the place. Link removed


Where? Madara compared  no hand seal usage, not effects, Again, how would he know.? Does madara have Byakugo?
Just wanking Uchiha i see.


> It's up to you to prove their regeneration isnt the same, because the manga supports that it actually is.


Already have, and the manga supports the complete opposite you dingbat.


> Plus, Juubidara, with regeneration far superior to Tsunades, almost got killed due to losing half of his torso. Link removed


Wrong, you mad bint. And he cant regrow Organs like Tsunade so if Gai's kick hit his heart Madara would have died. In the same position, Tsunade would have been fine.



> Tsunade cannot regrow her head, that's your fanfic and nothing more.


Tobirama cannot decapitate a woman who tanked stronger things, in a manga where decapitations rarely happen, that's your fanfic and nothing more.

*"I CAN RECONSTRUCT ANY DAMAGED PARTS AND ORGANS OF MY BODY"*



UchihaX28 said:


> All that tells me is that she causes pre-existing cells to multiply rapidly which can heal damaged muscle tissue and repair major damage to the organs which aligns perfectly to what the manga displayed. That doesn't convey to me that she simply can regenerate lost body-parts because that's essentially a representation of Yin-Yang Release which is only possible through Rikudou's Chakra.
> 
> Yin Release to create something out of nothing (the foundation of the limb) and Yang Release to breathe life into that said body-part (supplying it with blood, bone, cells, etc).


If she loses a limb she can essentially make a new one through cell division. If she loses her head, the rest of the cells in her neck will form upwards and make a new head.

How simpler can i put it?

If this isn't Hatred of Tsunade + Misogyny And/Or Tobirama Wank + Bias against Sannin, then I don't know what it is.

Tobirama isn't decapitating, and even if he is, Tsunade is regenerating. Manga proves it. If this were wrong, Hashirama would be weaker than Tobirama.

You guys just have to decide between Tsunade > Tobirama and Tobirama > Hashirama. I choose the former. I advise you all do too. @Hussain proved Tobirama was weaker than the Sannin.

Tobirama is close to them, but not quite at their level. He cant kill Tsunade or Katsuyu, and Tsunade wont be landing hits on him, so it comes down to attrition, and Tsunade has more chakra. When Tobirama isnt able to use FTG/Shunshin anymore, Tsunade will still be in Byakugo. Her normal reserves should be higher than Tobirama since not only is she Senju, she is also Uzumaki and has refined chakra control of the highest degree, as a medical ninja.

Tobirama has the same problem with Orochimaru. He cant kill him or his summon, so gets  outlasted, or opts for Yamata/resorts for Oohebi Neurotoxins in the worst case scenario.

Tobirama can't stop Jiraiya from getting into Sage Mode. Gamabunta will make sure of that. In Sage Mode, he preps Gamarinsho and gets in range. If Tobirama runs, then Jiraiya swamps the battlefield with Yomi Numa. Jiraiya will welcome an FTG marking as it just gives him a way to drag Tobirama into Toad Gourd Barrier/Toad Mouth Trap. In the very worst case scenario, Jiraiya might be forced into a tie as Jiraiya can get hit with Hiraishingiri, but Tobirama gets dragged into a Toad Jutsu. However, if he uses Bunta's mobility to jump across forest ranges to create space to get into Sage Mode, then he wont get hit by Hiraishingiri. He just catches Tobirama in Yomi Numa/Gamarinsho/Toad Gourd Barrier/Toad Mouth Trap. And Tobirama isn't outrunning an SM Rasengan because:

*Spoiler*: __ 






*Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan*

*Name
Kanji* 超大玉螺旋丸
*Rōmaji* Chōōdama Rasengan
*Literal English* Ultra-Big Ball Spiralling Sphere
*Viz print media* Super Giant Rasengan
*English anime* Massive Rasengan
*English games* Ultra-Giant Rasengan
*Debut
Manga* Volume #41, 
*Anime* 
*Game* 
*OVA* 
*Appears in* Anime, Manga, Game
*Data
Classification* Ninjutsu, 
*Class* Offensive
*Range* Short-range
*Other jutsu
Parent jutsu*




* [] *
Sage Art: Many Ultra-Big Ball Spiralling Serial Spheres
* [] Users*




The *Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan* is a more powerful version of the .

*Contents*
[]
*Usage*
In an instant, the user creates a Rasengan of gigantic proportions, larger than their own body. When it impacts, there is a large shock wave unleashed that can send unsuspecting shinobi flying. As with many Rasengan-variants,  needs the help of a in the Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan's formation.

*Senjutsu Influence*

A senjutsu-enhanced Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan.

When in , the user can perform a -enhanced version known as *Sage Art: Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan* (仙法・超大玉螺旋丸, _Senpō: Chō Ōdama Rasengan_). Although it has not been successfully used in the series, it is said that its destructive power – were it to explode – would easily carve away an entire mountain.


.... So if he doesnt have a mark on Jiraiya, even if he Shushin's back, the explosion will catch him. If he does haave a mark on him, and gets behind Jiraiya, Pa turns around and slices Tobirama with this.







Sannin > Tobirama. I understand you like Tobirama, and he is cool and all that, but please, by all means, be it feats, abilities, hype, portrayal, logic, common sense, he is not on the level of the Legendary Sannin, one of whom, was compared to the same Base Minato that is > Tobirama, and was more talented than/defeated the same Hiruzen that was more talented than/in childhood was stronger than Tobirama.


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## Veracity (May 22, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara had the same regeneration - couldnt regrow his hand. Juubidara had even better regeneration - almost got killed after Gai took off half of his torso. And Tsunade herself was coughing blood after Madara's Susanoo swords simply stabbed her, provoking Ei to say that she'll die if she continue to fight like that.
> 
> So you can throw that Databook statement out of the window, because it contradicts the manga completely.
> 
> ...



Unless you prove that Tsuandes regeneration has been stated to be the same as Hashirama's then I really don't have to prove anything. Tsuande has the hype and feats advantage, and IIRC, the only thing comparable about their regeneration techniques, is that they both don't require seals.

Why is Juubidara's regeneration way better than Tsunade's? Just being a god tier doesn't mean such. He also "almost died." That could mean a plethora of things. That doesn't 100% mean that losing his had would do the trick. That's honestly just reaching. Also regenerating an arm( which is exactly what Tsuande said she could do and is thus A CANON STATEMENT)is a lot different then regenerating a large Portion of her body, which is the means of debate.

You also have to take into consideration that Tsuande can live and fight after extreme damage has been taken; such as collapsed lungs, severed intercoastal muscles, severed spinal cord, being ripped in half , etc. Even her grandfather was able to fight while vertically being split in half. It isn't far fetched to assume that Tsunade can live without a head considering she is hyped to never die in battle and because she doesn't need to be conscious for Byakago to continue healing

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Veracity (May 22, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm not, but creating something out of thin air is essentially Yin-Yang Release which people with only Rikudou's Power possesses.



Tsuande is literally producing cells via chakra. Why would she not be able to regenerate an arm when she was created more complicated cell structures like the heart and spinal cord?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## IzayaOrihara (May 22, 2016)

Exactly @Likes boss
And don't worry, my recent post has disproved @StarWanderer 's silly argument.


Likes boss said:


> *It isn't far fetched to assume that Tsunade can live without a head considering she is hyped to never die in battle and because she doesn't need to be conscious for Byakago to continue healing*


And the fact 3 other people in this manga were conscious and able to use chakra after some form of a decapitation.


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## IzayaOrihara (May 22, 2016)

Im sorry @StarWanderer but I have won this debate. I proved all your "evidence" wrong. The Legendary Sannin > Tobirama. Minato is another argument for another day, and not one im going to have (because im not so knowledgable on Minato's abilities - or rather, i dont understand his power level and think hes overrated and underrated at the same time), but Base Minato > Sannin, so for now, I see Base Minato above Tobirama.


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## hbcaptain (May 22, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Right .... Being slightly below Base Minato is fine with you because you're a Minato fan.
> 
> What if he's slightly above Base Minato? What happens then?


Yeah Iam a Minato fan but Iam reasonable for example , I won't put him at War Obito level nor Edo Nagato . But he clearly plays in Pain/Itachi/MS Obito/Tobirama's level .
Putting him far below those is not objective at all , as I said you are among "the minority of true Mianto haters" . That's all I can say right now . Not my fault you're his worst hater in NF , your hate is that you put him amon mid-mid Kage level . The same tier as Tsnade , Kakuzu and co . According to NF and feats and yu know it you're drastically underrating him .


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## UchihaX28 (May 22, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Tsuande is literally producing cells via chakra. Why would she not be able to regenerate an arm when she was created more complicated cell structures like the heart and spinal cord?



Because she's only reconstructed "existing" complicated cell structures such as her heart spinal cord. It's not as if she had her heart completely blown off and reconstructed it from scratch. She simply takes pre-existing cells and has them multiply rapidly to reconstruct damaged tissue. That doesn't indicate to me that she can simply regenerate an entire body-part.

Sozo Saisei is an application of Yang Release which is why it's comparable to Hashirama's regeneration, but she cannot simply apply Yin Release simultaneously and create cells and body parts out of "thin-air" as that's something only people with Hagoromo's Power possesses.

 Edit: @IzayaOrihara 

 Can you please put spoiler tags on your images? No one needs to have their computer load so many large images because you decided to flood the entire page with so many scans.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (May 23, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> I'm talking about Sasuke during the Kages Arc before he went blind , Sasuke like naruto had reached maybe even slightly surpassed Sannin level but they were hindered by Kyuubi/blindness I'm just saying based on what we saw Izuna was not stronger than that Sasuke which means he's weaker than the Sannin


I don't think Tsunade and Orochimaru are > MS-Sasuke. Naruto was directly portrayed as above Tsunade in the Pain Arc; and MS-Sauske is equal to Pain-Arc Naruto. So I'd say MS-Sasuke > or at worst = Tsunade/Orochimaru. If we place Izuna around MS-Sasuke, and Tobirama beat him, than went on to have an illustrious career as a Ninja for many years after that, that suggests to me that Tobirama > Tsunade/Orochimaru.



> But he's decisively better , in the way that Minato is decisively better with FTG which puts him above Tobirama , not saying that makes him much stronger if at all but that is a strong consideration for them being close in power


Again, Like how Naruto was decisively better than Minato at Rasengan by the time of the Wind Arc?

And yes it's something to consider, but it's not the same as FTG. FTG is Minato and Tobirama's bread and butter; or to say it another way it's their main technique and what most of their fighting style revolves around. I.E. there is a big difference between someone being better w/ Sharingan than Sasuke, and someone being better at Chidori than Sasuke. The former is going to hold a-lot more weight than the latter. Edo-Tensei is not the former for Tobirama or Orochimaru, in-fact it can only be utilized under the right circumstances w/ prior preparation.



> Only thing that was retconned was him being stronger than hashirama but Senju/Uchiha was the reason for that nothing suggest besides maybe power scaling that he wasn't the strongest Gokage


I'm not going to dwell on this too much, because I simply brought it up as an aside anyway, but I don't think you can completely blame the power-scale. I mean Kishimoto didn't do Hiruzen any favors in terms of supporting his Strongest Gokage hype, even when Hiruzen was brought back in PII. 



> thats my point Hiruzen was strong as fuck , on order to damn near beat Orochimaru , but orochimaru was docking around and not instantly going for the kill , I'm going to look at the data the way we look at it with Jiraiya and Orochimaru , Jiraiya .5 better than orochimaru , Orochimaru was .5 better than Hiruzen but after Minato's death he was still strongest Kage at that time , definitely better than Kage Arc Sasuke pre stage 4 Susanoo.


I don't agree, that Old-Hiruzen was better than MS-Sasuke. Also if you really want to push forward w/ this Old-Hiruzen thing that's fine, but I think you should acknowledge the fact that when Old-Hiruzen and Tobirama were brought back an Edo in PII Kishimoto couldn't possibly been any clearer portrayal wise that Tobirama was superior to Old-Hiruzen. So if Orochimaru ≈ Old-Hiruzen, that only suggests to me that Tobirama > Orochimaru.



> I dont think so I think Tobirama holds about the same gap in advantage that orochimaru holds meaning he's slightly above but not far above them , that would put him on Danzo level and I always saw Danzo and Prime Hiruzen as being close and Hiruzen was stronger than Tobirama in their flashback , the old hiruzen aint THAT far behind as he would be say Minato,Nagato,Danzo,Kabuto


I don't think he's far above Orochimaru or as above Orochimaru as Minato/Nagato/Danzo/Kabuto are ether. However I don't think the gap is slight ether. To me the gap is about as big as the one between Itachi and Orochimaru, if not even a bit bigger.



> Tobirama has her beat combat wise, but Tsunade's better in support at best Tobirama maybe an inch stronger


As I said I'm already account for her support capabilities, and that's why I'd place her around Orochimaru's level and Onoki's level, but to me that level is inferior to Tobirama.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Complete_Ownage (May 23, 2016)

I can understand why people compare Minato & Tobirama fighting style since they share FTG and similar uses of it however I think it's incredibly unfair to say they are carbon copies of each other. Besides hiraishin they hardly share similarities. Madara states that Tobirama relied heavily on clones for feints and water ninjutsu. Madara also states Tobirama used Edo Tensei during the clan wars. Minato on the other hand utilizes hiraishin and his insane speed. 

They both rely on Hiraishin as the main focal point however the way they go about it is not 100% identical


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> And what does this prove? He almost died cos Gai was pummeling him. Tsunade was actually cut in half, and I don't think she, being a medical ninja/having Katsuyu/Senjuzumaki life force, was anywhere near death.



Judging from her condition, she was. She had to summon Katsuyu in order to restore her body. She even became an old lady in order to restore her body.

Plus, Juubidara's damage was a lot worse. Tsunade got her lower torso and legs cut off - Juubidara got half of his torso completely demolished.



IzayaOrihara said:


> It was stated Hashirama's was inferior to Tsunade's. Tsunade can regenerate limbs. Hashirama cannot, hence why Madara took a Shirozetsu arm when the Bijuus hacked it off. And you cant prove Juubi chakra enhances it to the level of Tsunade, who can regenerate limbs. The comparison between them was that neither jutsu required hand seals.



Where was it stated? Show me a Databook panel, or manga panel.

Madara had regeneration feats comparable to Tsunade's and Madara himself - a sensor, with amped vision (Rinnegan), who saw Tsunade's regeneration speed and Hashirama's regeneration speed - said it was the same ability Hashirama possessed. Link removed

Can regenerate limbs? I can regenerate them too if i have them damaged. I'll regenerate them, with time, just as every healthy human being. But at the same time, i cannot regrow my limbs, it's impossible. So when you have Tsunade's statement of being able to regrow her body parts, let me know.

Juubidara's chakra = senjutsu-chakra. Senjutsu-chakra amps every ninjutsu, every genjutsu and every taijutsu. It vitalises shinobi's body. Seems someone havent read the manga well. Plus, he has way better feats with his regeneration.

Madara didnt say "oh, so you can regenerate your wounds, just like Hashirama". He said that it was the same ability Hashirama possessed. The same. And that's coming from someone who saw Tsunade's regeneration speed and Hashirama's as well + was a sensor + had an improved vision, due to Edo Rinnegan.



IzayaOrihara said:


> That's just baseless speculation. None of it is factual.



Does Tsunade have regeneration feats comparable to Juubidara's? Nope. Does she have regeneration feats better than SM Madara? Nope. Was it stated that Tsunade's Byakugou regeneration ability is the same ability Hashirama possessed? Yes, it was.

Your statement about Tsunade being capable of regrowing her head is baseless. You cant prove it and the manga itself contradicts it, with Juubidara's words.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Wrong, based on above scans.



The Tsunade wank is strong here, seriously.

When did she ever regrew her body parts when they got destroyed? She never did that.

When did she ever stated she can regrow her lost/completely destroyed/chopped body parts? She never did that. Well, she said she can regenerate her limbs. To regenerate a damaged hand (regenerate a limb, damaged in battle) is one thing - to regrow a new one is another. If she said boldly that she could regrow her body parts after someone chopped them off, then yeah. But for now? No.

Because by saying "i can regenerate my organs and limbs" she could mean that she can simply regenerate damaged organs and limbs.

Also, where did she said that she can restore her head? Because to regenerate another organs, stored in her torso, and limbs is one thing - regenerate her brain is another. Can she send her chakra to her body after her head (where the Byakugou seal is, thus where it's chakra is) got chopped off? Or will she be able to restore her whole body, when she never did such a thing and when it has never been stated she can do that?

In either way, you have no proof she can regenerate her head.



IzayaOrihara said:


> You keep repeating the "hasnt shown" argument and keep ignoring the manga panels i provided. Thats like saying Hanzo never defeated the Sannin because we were never shown the actual fight.
> 
> Let me ask you two things.
> 
> ...



And her Byakugou seal is in her head. She herself said she stores all of that "regeneration" chakra in her forehead. Did she ever send her chakra on air? Did she ever restored her whole body?

As if she she ever stated she can regrow her limbs and organs after they've been destroyed. She said she can regenerate them, she never said she can regrow them. And by "regenerating" Kishimoto could mean "restoring damaged organs and limbs", not regrowing new ones.

By the way, why it wont be happening when Tobirama has way better speed feats and when his Shunshin is even faster than KCM Minato's movements? He will speedblitz her effortlessly, decapitate her effortlessly and thus, beat her effortlessly.



IzayaOrihara said:


> According to you he isnt, because even though it was said, it was never shown. Kisame has better feats.
> 
> So what if Madara maybe had a better feat as you say. Its not Tsunade's fault shes never been decapitated. In fact thats a good thing, showing how battle able she is.



Neither it was said, nor it was shown that Tsunade can regrow her head.

Cut off her head - cut off her access to main bdy. She has never gave anyone chakra on air, like some kind of wave or something. Even Bijuus have to touch person to give some chakra.

And you have no proof she can restore her whole body.



IzayaOrihara said:


> She was cut in half. If her body is bisected at her neck then she will survive because she survived a bisection at the waist. That is more than simple damage.



You compare decapitation to hip-legs bisection? I lol'ed.

Madara cut off her hip body part and legs, it's not the same as decapitation.



IzayaOrihara said:


> You are just being a nitpicker and worrying too much about semantics. Tsunade has twice shown she regenerate her spinal cord which is a huge feat.
> 
> You not only ignored my scans but ignored by examples where Kisame, Hidan and Orochimaru functioned after some form of decapitation. Neither of them are medical ninja. Neither of them have Byakugo. Neither of them have Senjuzumaki life force (well, Hidan is immortal, so ill give you that one).



People can regenerate their spinal cord. You can treat spinal cord damage sometimes.

However, if you got your hand cut off, it wont restore with time. The same goes with head, obviously.

She will stay alive, however, she wont be able to regrow a new head. That's a fanfic of yours, up to this moment.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Orochimaru took 4x Chakra Scalpel to the neck - it is an internal cut, which Kabuto suggested would have killed Rusty Tsunade if it hit her neck.



So what? Did he decapitate him?



IzayaOrihara said:


> So Orochimaru was "decapitated" in a way, and still used a jutsu after. So Byakugo stays active after Tsunades head gets lopped off, not that Tobirama will even achieve this, but yeah.
> 
> SO yeah, Tsunade is regrowing her head, or regrowing a new body from the severed head, either way, but id go with the first, considering manga writers besides the write of fairy tail dont like to use unnecessary nudity - they try to avoid it.
> 
> I don't see why you are clutching at straws. Do you have a vendetta against Tsunade.



He wasnt decapitated.

Tobirama's clone Shunshin is faster than KCM Minato's physical movement speed: Link removed Link removed Link removed

Minato is physically faster thanlong-ranged Kamui absorbtion: Link removed

And Tobirama marked Juubito with his arm before Juubito touched Tobirama's arm and half of the body with Gudoudama: Link removed  Link removed Link removed

Plus, Tobirama was stated to be the fastest shinobi during his era, thus faster than both Madara and Hashirama: Link removed

I wont post the scans with Madara feats against Ei, BM Naruto and SM Naruto right know. I did that lots of times. Maybe i'll post them here, later.

Tsunade is not even remotely close to that kind of speed. She cant react to Tobirama, at all. She gets blitzed.

Tsunade ahs never stated she can regrow a new body and has never stated she can regrow a new head, or a new limb, or a new organ + she never did anything like that on panel.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Two things:
> His regeneration is not better. He cant regenerate limbs. Tsunade can.
> They are completely different types.



Tsunade cant, and it was stated that her regeneration is the same ability Hashirama possessed.

Already addressed all of these.



IzayaOrihara said:


> *YOU CAN NOT FUCKING PROVE THIS. THAT IS YOUR OWN BASELESS SPECULATION. SO WHAT, MADARA CANT REGENERATE LIMBS, BUT SM GIVES HIM THE ABILITY TO DO SO? NOPE. HE NEEDED ZETSU TO GIVE HIM A SPARE ARM. TSUNADE CAN REGENERATE LIMBS, SPINAL CORDS, FLESH WOUNDS, STAB WOUNDS, AND 3 PEOPLE IN THIS MANGA WERE ABLE TO FUNCTION THEIR MIND AND/OR THEIR CHAKRA AFTER SOME FORM OF A DECAPITATION. IN HIDANS CASE IT WAS THE FORMER, IN KISAMES CASE IT WAS THE FORMER, IN OROCHIMARUS CASE IT WAS BOTH.*



Yes, i can. Madara never said something, like "oh, you can regenerate without seals, just like my brother could". He said Tsunade's regeneration was *the same ability Hashirama possessed*.
Link removed

Plus, SM Madara's regeneration feats are comparable to Tsunade's.

I never said she'll die instantly after decapitation, but she wont be able to regrow a new head, or a new body. That's your pure fanfic and that's it.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Nope. Didnt even open the scan. Dont need to.
> She fought 5 V3 Clones then still had enough chakra to power up mega jinton. She and the other kages survived the encounter with PS. She deflected a katon, and thats when Byakugo ran out, and even when she was in two halves, she was talking about saving the other kage, so not once in that entire section of the manga was she close to dying. You are now just making up facts and lying.



Still had enough chakra to power-up Jinton, yet before that, when she had even more chakra, she caughed blood after Susanoo simply stabbed her, provoking Ei to say that she can die if she continue to fight like that. Hell, you can see the difficulties she had when regenerating after Susanoo stabs.

The allmighty, all-regenerating Tsunade caughing blood and making a face, full of pain, after Susanoo swords stabbed her in 2 sides? And that's someone who can regrow a new head or a whole body? I again, lol'ed. Hard. Link removed Link removed

By the way, you do realise that she deflected Katon with her chakra, right? Link removed Link removed



IzayaOrihara said:


> Kusanagi/V3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tobirama's Kunai.



And? They didnt decapitate her.



IzayaOrihara said:


> No, what you do is what you are doing to me now.
> You make up facts and then insult the other debater, hoping they will back down, but it wont work on me.



I am not insulting you. And i dont remember insulting Hussain in any debate, at least directly.

But one thing is sertain - you will back down, with time. Because your arguements are laughable and prove nothing.



IzayaOrihara said:


> 1. Thats your opinion
> 2. Ive never even heard of these people - im guessing they are boxerd
> 3. Boxing isnt Naruto



And the more talanted doesnt always beat the less talanted.



IzayaOrihara said:


> The point is this.
> Tobirama can decapitate anyone slower than himself if i use your logic.
> Hashirama cannot survive a decapitation if i use your logic.
> So your logic says Tobirama > Hashirama.
> ...



Hashirama can percieve Tobirama's Shunshin and use his various techniques to beat his brother. Plus, he has a great durability with Sage Mode, with which Madara survived Bijuu's hits.



IzayaOrihara said:


> So its Madaras fault he cowered into Susanoo? Tsunade went into CQC with him, end of.



Maybe he didnt want a CQC with her? Especially when we know he was toying with Gokage, not using his full power.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Yes it does.
> 
> And it does seem as if you hate her. Why say she cant do something shes said/proved she can, but then use OOC arguments for Tobirama and give him minato's feats. It just doens't make sense.



It does? How?

Explain that to me.

The thing is - she never said and never did it. But you continue to say that she can do it. You are fantasizing too much.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Tsunade can regenerate limbs. Hashirama cannot.



Well, in the meaning of regenerate damaged limbs, both of them can. In the meaning of regrowing new ones? Both of them cant.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Hashirama and Tsunade have different regeneration powers. Tsunade's is a medical ninjutsu which uses chakra from her yin seal to stimulate cell multiplication blah blah ... hashirama's own power did not get that description
> 
> You saying it is the same is just poor understanding of the manga on your part.
> 
> ...



Madara said Tsunade's ability is the same ability Hashirama possessed, and that's someone with Rinnegan (thus have enchanced vision and can see chakra), with sensing and, finally, someone who saw both Tsunade's and Hashirama's regeneration. He saw the speed of her regeneration, felt her chakra, and said it's the same ability Hashirama possessed. He never said "oh, you can regenerate without seals, like Hashirama!".

*The same ability Hashirama possessed.*

Plus, it's not just Madara's statement - it's Kishimoto's statement you wanna sh*t on.

Fourth Databook has [] in it? Wanna see that.



IzayaOrihara said:


> The comparison was based on the fact neither technique needed hand seals. Tsunade's regeneration limits are higher than that of Hashirama's.



Is so, then Madara would have said that Tsunade, like Hashirama, can heal without seals. But he said that her regeneration is the same ability Hashirama possessed. And that's after seeing it with his very own eyes, with which he saw Hashirama's regeneration.



IzayaOrihara said:


> And Byakugo is superior Link removed



Thanks. I'll use it against you.

"madara said tsunade's byakugou was the same ability as hashirama's

so either it was retconed or viz is wrong or she didnt meant complete regeneration from the sratch" (c)

"he saw it with his own eyes so yes tsunade and hashirama have the same ability and tsunade cant regrow a new hand or head



she was also snapped in half did she grow new legs? no" (c)

Thank you. 



IzayaOrihara said:


> Shes not regrowing it. She is using cells in her body to multiply to create new cells and form a new head with a new brain. If the brain is what multiplies then she forms a new body, but it would be naked, and considering this is not Fairy Tail, the former is what would happen. I dont care if it doesnt completely make sense - this is Naruto, where bodyless heads can talk, and Tsunade can move her body when her spine is destroyed.



Well, a usual regeneration is the same thing. Yet no human can regrow a lost hand.

You have no statement and no feats.



IzayaOrihara said:


> All you have done in this post is insinuate Tsunade cant regenerate half of her torso. Which is false. The reason Madara almost died is because he cant regenerate organs. The Kick Gai delivered hit his left side. If it had crushed his heart that would have been the end of Madara. If it was Tsunade, she would have regenerated. She can reconstruct new organs and heads and asses and toenails and pussies using the remaining cells in her body. She is like Cell from DBZ. As long as a cell of her body remains, it will multiply to form the fresh original body that existed in the first place.



The level of stupidity in your posts aproach it's peak.

He cant regenerate his organs, yet he did regenerate them. I lol'ed. He crushed the half of his torso, where Juubidara's heart was. Link removed Link removed

And heart isnt only one organ Gai erased. Obviously.

You made such a comparison? So, in your opinion, she can restore her body even when only 1 cell left?

She cant regrow new head, new organs and new limbs. She never stated she can, and she never did that. Plus, Madara's statement and Juubidara's case prove that your words about her regeneration is a complete bullsh*t.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Say that one more time and i will smack you through my computer lol. Ive proved you wrong. Your understanding of this manga is soooooo amateur and mediocre its so sad.



Butt hurts, when someone destroys your wank, doesnt it? 

Madara saw Hashirama's regeneration through his battles with him. Oh, yeah, i forgot to show it: Link removed

And that's pretty much logical.

And said that Tsunade's regeneration is the same ability Hashirama possessed, after watching Tsunade's regeneration.

Dude, concede. You've lost already.



IzayaOrihara said:


> I have scans, comparisons, feats, the works.
> Tsunade can regenerate her head.
> And even if she couldnt, it doesnt matter, as tobirama isnt decapitating her.



Yet none of these back up your words. You cant prove your garbage to be true.

Finally, something i prepared for a desert...

Even if we imagine that you are right, Tobirama can simply exhaust her by cutting her into pieces until her Byakugou seal turns off! 

Or simply speedblitz her before she has a chance to use Byakugou seal.

Easy victory for me, although this time, i had to type a lot.


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## Itachi san88 (May 23, 2016)

Actually, databook implies that Hashirama regeneration is better than Tsunade regeneration.


*Spoiler*: __ 




*Healing Ability*
さらに驚嘆すべきはその回復力。
Further worthy of admiration is his recovery ability.
高度な医療忍術を操り、印を結ぶことすらなく傷を治せるのだ。
Commanding high-level ninja healing arts, he can heal wounds even without making hand gestures.
肉体そのものも生命力にあふれ、柱間の細胞を持つ者の治癒力を高める効果も。
His body itself brimming with vitality, those with Hashirama’s cells have heightened healing ability.
その力を超える忍は、以後現在まで存在しない。
_To this day, there is no ninja existing who surpasses his power._




Anyway i think that they're equal and that neither of them can regenerate limbs.


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Unless you prove that Tsuandes regeneration has been stated to be the same as Hashirama's then I really don't have to prove anything. Tsuande has the hype and feats advantage, and IIRC, the only thing comparable about their regeneration techniques, is that they both don't require seals.



Should i post Madara's words again? Madara saw hashirama's regeneration, saw Tsunade's regeneration and said that tsunade's regeneration was *the same ability Hashirama possessed*. 

No feats and no hype whatsoever. She cannot regrow a new head. Hell, her Byakugou chakra will be separated from her body due to decapitation and she cant give her chakra to her body after someone decapitated her. Of course, you can say that she can regrow her whole body.

Well, there is no proof she can.



Likes boss said:


> Why is Juubidara's regeneration way better than Tsunade's? Just being a god tier doesn't mean such. He also "almost died." That could mean a plethora of things. That doesn't 100% mean that losing his had would do the trick. That's honestly just reaching. Also regenerating an arm( which is exactly what Tsuande said she could do and is thus A CANON STATEMENT)is a lot different then regenerating a large Portion of her body, which is the means of debate.



Because he had Tsunade's regeneration, amped by Juubi's senjutsu-chakra?

Tsunade's statement "i can regenerate organs and limbs" can mean a plethora of things... That she can regenerate damaged organs and limbs, for example. Not regrow new ones after they got cut off.

Anyway, her Byakugou chakra is in her forehead and she uses that chakra to have such a great regeneration. After decapitation, she cant put her forehead chakra into her body, which is separated from her head. Thus, she wont be able to regrow new head. And there is no proof she can regrow a new body from her decapitated head.



Likes boss said:


> You also have to take into consideration that Tsuande can live and fight after extreme damage has been taken; such as collapsed lungs, severed intercoastal muscles, severed spinal cord, being ripped in half , etc. Even her grandfather was able to fight while vertically being split in half. It isn't far fetched to assume that Tsunade can live without a head considering she is hyped to never die in battle and because she doesn't need to be conscious for Byakago to continue healing



Her grandfather? Wanna see that.

Never die in battle? Kishimoto himself made those words for Raikage. Remember them? Plus, she caughed blood and made a pain grimace after being stabbed. 

Anyway, she wont even activate her Byakugou seal, due to Tobirama's vast speed advantage.


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## IzayaOrihara (May 23, 2016)

@StarWanderer i'm tired so you can expect a full response tomorrow, but i will say one thing
- I do not care if Tsunade never regenerated limbs/heads - a statement she said implies she can and on that premise alone Tobirama cannot defeat her


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## IzayaOrihara (May 23, 2016)

Itachi san88 said:


> Actually, databook implies that Hashirama regeneration is better than Tsunade regeneration.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Wrong on so many levels - no one has surpassed Hashirama as a ninja overall, like Kabuto/Madara said, but like the statement comparisons/DB comparisons show, Tsunade regen > Hashi
How can you say that when:

You disagree with something the manga said, yet you would probably subscribe to Itachi > Pein theories, which lie outside the manga. Lol im done with you.


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## Itachi san88 (May 23, 2016)

Dude, the databook that i posted talk about _Healing Ability_, not ninja overall.

starwandered has already said all there is to say, so I do not waste my time, since i don't care about Tsunade/Hashirama regenerations.

Lol i don't believe that Itachi>Pain and your obsession for him is hilarious   I know you need to vent your frustration, but go back to wank Orochimaru or go back to talk about Sannin bullshit and stop embarrassing yourself 



> Lol im done with you.


I hope

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> @StarWanderer i'm tired so you can expect a full response tomorrow, but i will say one thing
> - I do not care if Tsunade never regenerated limbs/heads - a statement she said implies she can and on that premise alone Tobirama cannot defeat her



 Except the statement that you presented doesn't imply it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2016)

I would say tobirama can be considered below jiriaya and orochimaru
however I don't see how he isn't superior to tsunade

his GFK simply trolls her. the technique is said to carry on continuously without an end in sight, tsunade will regen till she runs out of steam and dies

at least the other 2 sannin have means of stopping tobirama ET so I can certainly agree with the general consensus that sannin> tobirama

though that again only applies to jiraiya and orochimaru who have shown better techniques than tobirama


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## StarWanderer (May 24, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> @StarWanderer i'm tired so you can expect a full response tomorrow, but i will say one thing
> - I do not care if Tsunade never regenerated limbs/heads - a statement she said implies she can and on that premise alone Tobirama cannot defeat her



She needs to activate Byakugou seal first.

She can be tired out. Byakugou seal will turn off, as it did in canon.

She has no durability feats to suggest that she can tank a kunai slash.

She never said she can regrow organs, or regrow limbs that has been cut off.

She said she can regenerate organs and limbs. Cool, i can do that too.

She said she stores a lot of chakra in her forehead and use it to regenerate, but if she got decapitated, her head is not connected with her body, so she cant send there chakra from her forehead to regenerate. And there is no proof she can regrow an entire body. Hell, she had difficulties regenerating simple Susanoo stabs.

Concede, dude. You are wrong. You are wanking her too much.


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## StarWanderer (May 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I would say tobirama can be considered below jiriaya and orochimaru
> however I don't see how he isn't superior to tsunade
> 
> his GFK simply trolls her. the technique is said to carry on continuously without an end in sight, tsunade will regen till she runs out of steam and dies
> ...



What do you think about Tobirama speedblitzing Jiraya? Judging from his performance during the war, he is more than fast enough to do that.


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2016)

With tobirama I think the thing is people ignore the circumstances behind how juubito got tagged which is the only reason he outshined minato

Is the argument from tobirama supporters that minato while split in half can't tag juubito ?

His later feats certainly would imply he can though

Also perhaps people assume he put those explosive tags on juubito , I doubt that considering his ET have explosive tags in them

I can't say am right , however touching juubito 6 times certainly isn't right either

In any case without being able to mark his opponent and his less efficient means of using his marks honestly Jiriaya or orochimaru should beat him

When both characters didn't have the enemy tagged they both performed quite bad in the war 

Tobirama gets wasted by rinnegan Madara 

And SM minato gets wasted by juubidara

What's consistent however is when both had their enemy tagged they casually outperformed the other 

Minato slitting Obito throat while tobirama was still trying to get there


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (May 24, 2016)

The Tags that were on Juubito body were different than the Tags used for GKF ,plus their positions suggest they were placed there by someone,if they were in the Edo they would have been only in front of his Body like Chest and etc and would have probably be more than Six.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> The Tags that were on Juubito body were different than the Tags used for GKF ,plus their positions suggest they were placed there by someone,if they were in the Edo they would have been only in front of his Body like Chest and etc and would have probably be more than Six.



I find it unlikely he could touch juubito 7 times before being split in half 

Doesn't tally with the rest of his feats

I.e unable to land a blind side attack on SM Madara


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## UchihaX28 (May 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I find it unlikely he could touch juubito 7 times before being split in half
> 
> Doesn't tally with the rest of his feats
> 
> I.e unable to land a blind side attack on SM Madara



 Obito charged at him whereas Madara didn't.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Obito charged at him whereas Madara didn't.



Which would make touching Madara easier as it was even a surprise attack 

Yet he didn't have the physical speed to touch him


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 25, 2016)

Tobirama a has a lot of spirit/soul jutsu and fuin jutsu, that was and wasn't shown.  Unlike the other ambiguous all kinds of jutsu characters, we know he actually made a whole scroll of kinjutsu from which Naruto learned one.  That could beat Tsunade regardless of regeneration or slugger saiyan.

Tier-wise Tsunade thought she was no match for the weaker Madara she knew about, while Tobirama thought he could win, and it was implied by Madara he could have before Madara powered up all kinds with plot devices.  Also somehow Madara cared about dodging Tobirama's magic sword despite having Hashirama senpo regen even though he used his forearm to no-handed blade-catch Sasuke Kusunagi.  It might be made out of the same stuff as Minato's magic kunai.

Tobirama also has a cooler theme song which needs to be respected.


*Spoiler*: _Tobirama Rhymes with Tobirama oh_


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 25, 2016)

> She has no durability feats to suggest that she can tank a kunai slash.
> 
> She never said she can regrow organs, or regrow limbs that has been cut off.
> 
> She said she can regenerate organs and limbs. Cool, i can do that too.



You're one step away from being a lending manager at Gilrose Finance.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2016)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Tobirama a has a lot of spirit/soul jutsu and fuin jutsu, that was and wasn't shown.  Unlike the other ambiguous all kinds of jutsu characters, we know he actually made a whole scroll of kinjutsu from which Naruto learned one.  That could beat Tsunade regardless of regeneration or slugger saiyan.
> 
> Tier-wise Tsunade thought she was no match for the weaker Madara she knew about, while Tobirama thought he could win, and it was implied by Madara he could have before Madara powered up all kinds with plot devices.  Also somehow Madara cared about dodging Tobirama's magic sword despite having Hashirama senpo regen even though he used his forearm to no-handed blade-catch Sasuke Kusunagi.  It might be made out of the same stuff as Minato's magic kunai.
> 
> ...



Is there a confirmation that the scroll Naruto took was tobirama scroll ?


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## Turrin (May 25, 2016)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Tobirama a has a lot of spirit/soul jutsu and fuin jutsu, that was and wasn't shown.  Unlike the other ambiguous all kinds of jutsu characters, we know he actually made a whole scroll of kinjutsu from which Naruto learned one.  That could beat Tsunade regardless of regeneration or slugger saiyan.
> 
> Tier-wise Tsunade thought she was no match for the weaker Madara she knew about, while Tobirama thought he could win, and it was implied by Madara he could have before Madara powered up all kinds with plot devices.  Also somehow Madara cared about dodging Tobirama's magic sword despite having Hashirama senpo regen even though he used his forearm to no-handed blade-catch Sasuke Kusunagi.  It might be made out of the same stuff as Minato's magic kunai.
> 
> ...


The scroll was Hasiramas


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## UchihaX28 (May 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Which would make touching Madara easier as it was even a surprise attack
> 
> Yet he didn't have the physical speed to touch him



Possibly. Someone rushing towards you without the intention of dodging would be easier to tag than someone attempting to actually dodge.

But you're ignoring the fact that Juubito flickered towards him and tagged him multiple times * the instant * before Juubito sliced him in half. That requires precise timing and this is something KCM Naruto, Initial EMS Sasuke, and KCM Minato could not do as they stood there dumbfounded at what was going on.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Possibly. Someone rushing towards you without the intention of dodging would be easier to tag than someone attempting to actually dodge.
> 
> But you're ignoring the fact that Juubito flickered towards him and tagged him multiple times * the instant * before Juubito sliced him in half. That requires precise timing and this is something KCM Naruto, Initial EMS Sasuke, and KCM Minato could not do as they stood there dumbfounded at what was going on.



KCM could still use 2 chakra arms in the time frame it took that juubito to shape his attack and skewer Naruto 

I don't see how that's less impressive that getting split in half and tagging juubito what I believe to be once and not 6 times 

His ET have explosive tags in them since the point of ET is to take the opponent out with their sacrificial bodies while fighting 

U can't prove nor can I btw that tobirama placed those tags himself and then marked juubito at speeds juubito couldn't even perceive 

That doesn't slightly fall in line with the rest of his feats 

We will go around in circles on that but you can't possibly convince me he touched juubito 7 times 

With that much of a physical speed gap tobirama wouldn't need to risk his body to dominate juubito


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## UchihaX28 (May 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> KCM could still use 2 chakra arms in the time frame it took that juubito to shape his attack and skewer Naruto
> 
> I don't see how that's less impressive that getting split in half and tagging juubito what I believe to be once and not 6 times



 KCM Naruto reacted to Juubito's * Gudoudama extension * which even Hiruzen could react to point-blank, so it's clearly much slower than the attack he used on Tobirama where he actually used the momentum of his Shunshin to carry on with his attack which is essentially harder to react to then altering his momentum like he did against Naruto and Sasuke after he grabbed him. Not only that, he sliced through Tobirama which is a representation of his strike speed. He merely used the Gudoudama as a blade which is not when he did against KCM Naruto. That's an incomparable situation.



> His ET have explosive tags in them since the point of ET is to take the opponent out with their sacrificial bodies while fighting
> 
> U can't prove nor can I btw that tobirama placed those tags himself and then marked juubito at speeds juubito couldn't even perceive
> 
> ...



 he was simply creating another new body to heal himself from the fight whilst stating that his current body was having an "adverse reaction" and he needed a new one soon

 Tobirama's the one giving Hashirama orders.

 he was simply creating another new body to heal himself from the fight whilst stating that his current body was having an "adverse reaction" and he needed a new one soon

 Minato: "The Second is always quick to act."

 Pretty cut and cry that Tobirama was the one who placed the explosive tags.

 Even then, he tagged Juubito at least once (for FTG) which is something that KCM Minato, KCM Naruto, and Initial EMS Sasuke could not see at all. They didn't even see what was happening until Juubito sliced through Tobirama. Once Tobirama tells KCM Minato to jump is when KCM Minato actually notices the tags. Tobirama kept track of everything, but KCM Minato w/ an outside perspective could not. It's a very respectable speed feat, one that cannot be ignored.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> KCM Naruto reacted to Juubito's * Gudoudama extension * which even Hiruzen could react to point-blank, so it's clearly much slower than the attack he used on Tobirama where he actually used the momentum of his Shunshin to carry on with his attack which is essentially harder to react to then altering his momentum like he did against Naruto and Sasuke after he grabbed him. Not only that, he sliced through Tobirama which is a representation of his strike speed. He merely used the Gudoudama as a blade which is not when he did against KCM Naruto. That's an incomparable situation..



I don't see how hiruzen reacting to an enemy attacking from a much further distance implies its slower because hiruzen reacted. I don't see how a person physical speed is normally faster than their ability to cast jutsu more often than not its the other way around



.





> he was simply creating another new body to heal himself from the fight whilst stating that his current body was having an "adverse reaction" and he needed a new one soon
> 
> Tobirama's the one giving Hashirama orders.
> 
> ...



I don't see how quick to act means he placed the tags. couldn't that refer to tobirama marking his target with hirashin?
however note tobirama made a quick to act statement on minato when minato set up the kunai before they boxed juubi in

.





> Even then, he tagged Juubito at least once (for FTG) which is something that KCM Minato, KCM Naruto, and Initial EMS Sasuke could not see at all. They didn't even see what was happening until Juubito sliced through Tobirama. Once Tobirama tells KCM Minato to jump is when KCM Minato actually notices the tags. Tobirama kept track of everything, but KCM Minato w/ an outside perspective could not. It's a very respectable speed feat, one that cannot be ignored.



he tagged juubito once. I know that, I said that already. minato never faced that juubito to tag him though. the one he faced, if he had risked tagged him he wont have been able to regen so he did the smart thing and fled.

I respect the feat, however ur entire post doesn't actually prove he touched him 7 times. it implies at most he touched him once which is what most believe happened. cant take from that, he used ET to its full potential there.

makes sense

what ur doing would be like me ignoring all circumstances and saying minato could hirashin twice before 8th gate gai could move and make it sound like that's a reason he should blitz every non god tier character. while forgetting it was a planned interception making full use of lee speed and minato reactions


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2016)

tobirama making your quick to act comment on minato setting up marking

he was simply creating another new body to heal himself from the fight whilst stating that his current body was having an "adverse reaction" and he needed a new one soon

not really trying to go into a tobirama vs minato comparison all over again

the only thing that can be said for either is when they mark you they fight significantly better than when they haven't


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## Android (May 25, 2016)

Itachi san88 said:


> embarrassing yourself


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Precisely.
> 
> the tags are even way separated from each others. Like one on Obito's arm, the other one is on his leg, other one neer his chest....etc
> etc. There is no way that Tobirama physically placed those tags, and in those different places.
> ...



Yh but u only agreeing out of some weird fan butthurt and not because there is an obvious logic to it 

Perhaps best not to quote me since all things not naruto or pro minato hard to take you seriously

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2016)

Hussain said:


> jackass.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably it would have been better if I did not qoute you. It's my mistake. You need to grow up.



yh stop doing that. too much of a kid



now Saru and actual posters I welcome it.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Trojan (May 25, 2016)

@
Whatever, you do not worth the effort. Forget about that post. 
I'll delete it now.


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## Trojan (May 25, 2016)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Tobirama a has a lot of spirit/soul jutsu and fuin jutsu, that was and wasn't shown.  Unlike the other ambiguous all kinds of jutsu characters, we know he actually made a whole scroll of kinjutsu from which Naruto learned one.  That could beat Tsunade regardless of regeneration or slugger saiyan.
> 
> Tier-wise Tsunade thought she was no match for the weaker Madara she knew about, while Tobirama thought he could win, and it was implied by Madara he could have before Madara powered up all kinds with plot devices.  Also somehow Madara cared about dodging Tobirama's magic sword despite having Hashirama senpo regen even though he used his forearm to no-handed blade-catch Sasuke Kusunagi.  It might be made out of the same stuff as Minato's magic kunai.
> 
> ...



Where did thought that? 
When they were going to the were, he said "we" as he knew that "he" wouldn't stand a chance


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## UchihaX28 (May 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I don't see how hiruzen reacting to an enemy attacking from a much further distance implies its slower because hiruzen reacted. I don't see how a person physical speed is normally faster than their ability to cast jutsu more often than not its the other way around



He was within closer range and was mentally processing what was going on as Obito continuously extended his TSB to attack Hiruzen.

It is faster through feats. Hiruzen shouldn't have even been able to physically react to a Gudoudama extension in the first place if KCM Minato, KCM Naruto, and Initial EMS Sasuke can be blitzed with ease by Juubito's own Shunshin + Strike Speed, but that was what was shown.




> I don't see how quick to act means he placed the tags. couldn't that refer to tobirama marking his target with hirashin?
> however note tobirama made a quick to act statement on minato when minato set up the kunai before they boxed juubi in



No because KCM Minato's eyes bulged and we see the tags placed later, indicating that Tobirama was the one who placed the tags.

Later, he reassures everyone that he managed to tag Juubito with his own TSB is through the marking:

Naruto casually shunshined from his office to Kakashi's nose on the Hokage monument and grabbed Bolt's arm before he could release a shuriken from his hand

So Minato likely didn't know about it.

Minato's feat wasn't an application of reaction speed, so I'm not sure how that's relevant.



> he tagged juubito once. I know that, I said that already. minato never faced that juubito to tag him though. the one he faced, if he had risked tagged him he wont have been able to regen so he did the smart thing and fled.
> 
> I respect the feat, however ur entire post doesn't actually prove he touched him 7 times. it implies at most he touched him once which is what most believe happened. cant take from that, he used ET to its full potential there.



Minato got his ass handed to him and couldn't do anything when half of Juubito's body was preoccupied with fighting Naruto and Sasuke. I fail to see how Obito being Mindless had to do anything. Juubito lost control fighting Minato and still kicked his ass. Tobirama fought the same Obito who didn't succumb to the Juubi's chakra.



> makes sense
> 
> what ur doing would be like me ignoring all circumstances and saying minato could hirashin twice before 8th gate gai could move and make it sound like that's a reason he should blitz every non god tier character. while forgetting it was a planned interception making full use of lee speed and minato reactions



It's not the same. Minato's reaction feat was not situation where he reacted to any attack because as you said, it was coordinated with everyone else to ensure that the moment the kunai reaches the TSB, all Minato has to do is react to the kunai's change in position, and warp again immediately after he reaches his kunai. That's an example where Minato didn't react to anyone.

Tobirama did. It being pre-planned doesn't change the fact that he had to physically react to Juubito multiple times before he sliced him in half. Minato was never forced to physically react to anything whereas Tobirama did and KCM Minato&Co were dumbfounded with Minato left acknowledging Tobirama's reaction speed.

 I'm not ignoring the circumstances, you're just ignoring what each had to do to accomplish their goal simply because they're pre-planned feats.


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## IzayaOrihara (May 25, 2016)

@StarWanderer sorry ive been busy in different discussions allover the place but expect a full response tomorrow.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 26, 2016)

Where did it say the scroll was Hashirama's?

Tobirama thought he could win when he said he was going by himself to stop Madara and screw everyone else.


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## Bonly (May 26, 2016)

I don't think the scroll was stated to be Hashi's or Tobi's, all I remember is that it was stated that the previous Kages had forbidden it but that doesn't tell us who it belonged to.


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## IzayaOrihara (May 26, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> @StarWanderer sorry ive been busy in different discussions allover the place but expect a full response tomorrow.


In fact you know what @StarWanderer, I concede. Not because I am wrong, but for two reasons.
1) I have many other big fish to fry at this moment so i haven't the time for a long response.
2) This is just gonna lead to more people underrating Tsunade. First she can regenerate her head, but now, she cant regenerate limbs even though manga said she could (what kind of ignorance is this), and she has inferior regeneration to Hashirama when SM Madara showed this was not true, so I don't have time to argue with people whose only motive is to knock Tsunade down a tier.

So *for now (yeah, don't think this is over yet),* Tobirama defeats Tsuande Extreme Difficulty based on Bad Match Up, but they are of similar strength, same reason why Tsunade loses to Itachi, Sasori loses to Orochimaru. It's a bad match up. And she is a support ninja so i understand. I accept Tobirama is fast, but i still believe Tsunade can regenerate her head. No one but Kishi can tell me she can't. Tobirama defeats Tsunade Extreme Diff.

I have Itachi vs Orochimaru at the top of my mind so i cannot focus on this. But don't worry Tsunade, i got your back.
tsunade.

But one thing i can say is this:
You said: "Tsunade was bisected and didn't regenerate new legs"
*Spoiler*: __ 








Well ... of course she didn't you dingbat, because Byakugo Seal ran out before that happened you absolute .... let me not use that word, for your own sake as well as mine.

And thats the problem - *you think you know what you are talking about, but you are clueless*, so ill choose not to debate Tsunade with you. I'm not saying you are a misogynist, but if i was to say that, you all can understand why? Taking away her abilities, yet ive witnesses people give Living Itachi sharingan feats from Edo Itachi/MS Sasuke/MS Obito.

So yeah for now i concede. We can pick this up another day. Tsunade is still the Queen IDGAF!

*Spoiler*: __ 







PS: To be honest, the databook already proves Sannin > Tobirama and Portrayal (Manga Objective) > Feats (Fanbased Subjective) so for me, Tobirama will never be stronger than Tsunade

Whatever - let me ask you one more thing.
Tsunade vs Izuna? How badly does Tsunade stomp (*cough* bottom right panel, Kisame's speech bubble on the left hand side*)?

Tobirama is not that strong (people keep comparing him to an Edo version of himself who had Kage assistance and a body with limitless stamina) but I cannot stop someone from wanking. I know this from experience with Itachi vs Orochimaru debates.

Izuna based on speculation had what? Genjutsu? Countered by Yin Seal. Tsukuyomi? Healed by Byakugo. Amaterasu? Katsuyu/Byakugo etc etc you know the rest. Susanoo? Smashed with Byakugo strength + melted with Katsuyu acid. Tsunade can defeat Tobirama's equal so why can't she beat Tobirama. *Why apart from your misogyny can't she regenerate a head. *She won the Second Ninja World War for Konoha yet will die to a Kunai wielded by someone who was beaten in the First Ninja World War by 20 fodders. _She is the World's Greatest Medical Ninja but a Kunai will kill her_. She survived a battle with Prime Hanzo (who managed to strike someone as fast as Prime Mifune [Old Mifune showed considerable speed] on the head) yet she gets her head lopped off by a Kunai. I am not disregarding Tobirama's speed, but yeah, he kills the woman who picked up a sword that weighs what? 100 tons? And jumped into the sky, calculated attack location and hit Manda square in the head, closed distance with Madara and broke V1, hit Madara after being teleported and wounded by *Mabui's jutsu* _(which im sure does more damage to her neck than a Kunai, but of course, people ignore this feat),_ can use terrain manipulation/chakra scalpels/Ranshinshō on opponents that come up in her grill, and has Katsuyu, a Bijuu sized slug who is impervious to blunt force, cutting attacks, and heat based attacks, - she loses to a Kunai. Yeah lol thats why I am choosing to backdown here. You see living Tobirama in a great light, but I just can't see what everyone else is seeing. I care about Tobirama's feats, but at the same time, i do not, because Jiraiya having Gamarinsho does not mean he can beat Prime Hanzo, who has not shown a counter to it, because he is firmly above Jiraiya based on portrayal, the same way that Tsunade is above Tobirama. Portrayal also has to be taken into account here  as it is objective, rather than feats, which are subjective to fan interpretation (ie people have degraded Sozo Saisei, yet give Tobirama feats he achieved as an immortal edo, with limitless stamina, and help from kages around him, to his living self, in the same way people give Edo Itachi/MS Sasuke/MS Obito's sharingan feats to Living Itachi).

Anyway I "Concede" (Well, not concede, but you know what I mean)


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## Turrin (May 27, 2016)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Where did it say the scroll was Hashirama's?


Chapter 1, Viz, Hiruzen, "The scroll he has taken is so dangerous that the very first hokage sealed it away!"


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 27, 2016)

Huh.  What I read said the previous Hokage.

Oh well.


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## Turrin (May 28, 2016)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Huh.  What I read said the previous Hokage.
> 
> Oh well.


Yeah that's the shitty online translation.


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