# Whitebeard vs Kaido



## Shunsuiju (May 11, 2022)

Battle of the 'World's Strongest' title holders.





Who reigns supreme over the seas?

Reactions: Like 1


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## trance (May 11, 2022)

so this is oldbeard then?


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## Shunsuiju (May 11, 2022)

trance said:


> so this is oldbeard then?


Yeah, but at the exact moment he was introduced with the title.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## trance (May 11, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Yeah, but at the exact moment he was introduced with the title.


then kaido but its a great fight

even with his health stablized and more freely able to call upon his adv. coc, WB shouldn't have more stamina than kaido which is what it would come down to

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Neutral 1


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## The crazy hacker (May 11, 2022)

Whitebeard wins.

But the one stabbed by Squardo and had heart attacks loses.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Turrin (May 11, 2022)

WSM title has to do with Attack Potency and WSC has to do with durability. Usually Attack Potency matters more then Durability in Shonen, so I favor WB to win this in an all out fight. Also WB himself believed he was still the strongest even after taking significant damage at MF, and he was for sure aware of Kaidou’s strength (if anything he overrated him as he believed he beat Oden 20 Years ago), so this is another indicator WB was the strongest.

Additionally WB was considered closest to the throne of PK by numerous well informed characters and DBs and the Strongest Pirate. While some might argue this is due to his Crew’s Power, I don’t think that makes much sense in context with what we have seen from Kaidou’s crew and what we know about Shank’s Crew.

Kaidou’s forced out number WB’s significantly and while WB commanders do seem stronger then Kaidou’s it’s not by an enormous margin. It’s not like Marco is stomping King 1v1, Ace is stomping Queen, etc… these are largely High Diff matches still and with the WB commanders having to deal with Superior numbers they could easily loose or be forced to extreme diff.

Like wise Shank’s crew is hyped as the strongest not WB’s.

This must mean it’s WB power being over the other Yonko that tips the balance and makes him the Strongest Pirate and Closest to One Piece. This is supported by Shanks fearing a fight with WB in the Ace Novel more then anyone else and WB being stated to have world ending power, a power-scale we still have not seen even in Luffy and Kaidou’s final clash

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 4 | Disagree 1


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## YonkoDrippy (May 11, 2022)

WB wins

Old WB was still called the WSM even when Kaido was around. When he was first introduced, WB wasn’t sick like he was in MF. He beats Kaido extreme diff.

Kaido beats MF WB tho

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Steven (May 11, 2022)

WB wankers strikes back

Kaido~Primebeard>Old WB

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## God sl4yer (May 11, 2022)

It goes wither way.

This WB was the WSM unlike the one at MF who was having heart attacks and barely had any haki and even then had enough AP to 2 shot an admiral. With much better CoO, stamina and advCoC he will be a beast

Reactions: Like 2


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## TheWiggian (May 11, 2022)

Primebeard > Oldbeard > Kaido

Reactions: Agree 8 | Winner 2


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## God sl4yer (May 11, 2022)

Steven said:


> WB wankers strikes back
> 
> Kaido~Primebeard>Old WB


Nice fanfiction.

Canonically;
 primebeard > kaido ~ healthy old WB > sick old WB.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Steven (May 11, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> Nice fanfiction.
> 
> Canonically;
> primebeard > kaido ~ healthy old WB > sick old WB.


NF Trolls lol

WSC and 1on1 King>WB

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Grinningfox (May 11, 2022)

Kaido is the worst possible kid of fight for oldbeard 

He takes it after a great fight

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## God sl4yer (May 11, 2022)

Turrin said:


> WB himself believed he was still the strongest even after taking significant damage at MF.


No he didn't, he believed that no one can remain the strongest forever and his time to step down as the strongest has come as he is now getting stabbed by fodder characters.


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## Empathy (May 11, 2022)

WB was still the world’s strongest while Kaidou was alive, so he’d win.


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## Grinningfox (May 11, 2022)

Empathy said:


> WB was still the world’s strongest while Kaidou was alive, so he’d win.


A Bagua to the chest is triggering a heart attack if a stab would


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## Eustathios (May 11, 2022)

Whitebeard wins. His CoO was so good he could not be touched even in sleep and he split the skies with Shanks. Buggy, Sengoku and Garp considered him the strongest pirate. He's not losing here.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## TheNirou (May 11, 2022)

Oda already answered this question since 2010...

Reactions: Winner 13


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## Turrin (May 11, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> No he didn't, he believed that no one can remain the strongest forever and his time to step down as the strongest has come as he is now getting stabbed by fodder characters.


No he said he can’t remain the strongest for ever. Which means he currently is the strongest but soon not to be. That’s the definition of the word remain


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## Ludi (May 11, 2022)

The strongest pirate wins, of course


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## God sl4yer (May 11, 2022)

People downplay old WB a lot.

In a sick and injured state he was physically fast enough to appear behind akainu in a war and had enough AP to 2 shot akainu without any advCoC, stalemated aokiji and beat the shit out of BB while he was half dead. The same BB who scarred shanks when he was ongaurd and defeated ace without much difficulty. Yes he had very bad CoO and durability but healthy old WB beard had much better CoO and had advCoC + much better physical condition.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## God sl4yer (May 11, 2022)

Steven said:


> 1on1 King


After WB died.


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## Van Basten (May 11, 2022)

WB extreme diff.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 11, 2022)

Ludi said:


> The strongest pirate wins, of course



What about the strongest creature?


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## TheMoffinMan (May 11, 2022)

If this version of WB is healthy enough to not suffer a heart attack then I favor him. Not sure that's the case tho, considering he was hooked up to every medical box in the verse even back then.

Kaidos defence also ensures it will be a long fight further increasing the chance of WBs health acting up. All in all I'd favor Kaido more times than not, but this version of WB should have an advantage over people like Shanks, Akainu etc.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Ludi (May 11, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> What about the strongest creature?


If the creature is also a pirate, as well as a man, I'd favor the person being the strongest Man and strongest pirate personally

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## Vinsmoke31 (May 11, 2022)

Prime wb>kaido>oldbeard

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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 11, 2022)

Kaido high diffs.

You need primebeard to extreme diff Kaido.

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## Strobacaxi (May 11, 2022)

Oldbeard with his medicine was WSM. He's more powerful than Kaido. His stamina might fuck him though

Like any fight between two yonkos, it's either way.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## nyamad (May 11, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> Kaido high diffs.
> 
> You need primebeard to extreme diff Kaido.


You mean Primebeard to make it an extreme diff win for Kaido


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 11, 2022)

nyamad said:


> You mean Primebeard to make it an extreme diff win for Kaido


Oh nah, I think Primebeard and Roger are still slightly stronger than Kaido.

They are PK Tier, above the Yonko.

My scale is:

PK Tier > Yonko > Admirals > YC1s > lower Yonko commanders

And since Kaido is very likely the strongest Yonko, he would just be slightly below Primebeard and Roger.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Amol (May 12, 2022)

Whitebeard wins with very high diff.
It would be a tough battle.

Whitebeard has more offence while Kaido has more defence. Should be an interesting fight.

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## Dellinger (May 12, 2022)

Amol said:


> Whitebeard wins with very high diff.
> It would be a tough battle.
> 
> Whitebeard has more offence while Kaido has more defence. Should be an interesting fight.


Old WB winning with very high diff ? What ?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ShWanks (May 12, 2022)

Kaido melts his skull...WSC > WSM

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Corax (May 12, 2022)

Prime WB obviously. High at worst. Luffy has yet to reach PK/prime WB lvl. He might reach it in next arc or two though.

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## YellowCosmos (May 12, 2022)

Kaido should be able to beat an old and sick Whitebeard, It won't be easy and he'll probably take devastating wounds, but his stamina is obviously way better and he's not lacking in any other department (except sheer offensive power) compared to Whitebeard.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Dellinger (May 12, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> Kaido should be able to beat an old and sick Whitebeard, It won't be easy and he'll probably take devastating wounds, but his stamina is obviously way better and he's not lacking in any other department (except sheer offensive power) compared to Whitebeard.


Why do you guys downplay Kaidos offensive power ?


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## YellowCosmos (May 12, 2022)

Dellinger said:


> Why do you guys downplay Kaidos offensive power ?



Where did I downplay his offensive power? All I said is that he's lacking in offensive power _compared to Whitebeard_.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dellinger (May 12, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> Where did I downplay his offensive power? All I said is that he's lacking in offensive power _compared to Whitebeard_.


Teach with the same fruit is weaker than Kaido. Don’t see why Kaido lacks in offensive power compared to Gura. Not strictly about range but how much hurt he can put in someone. Based on what we’ve seen at least


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## YellowCosmos (May 12, 2022)

Dellinger said:


> Teach with the same fruit is weaker than Kaido. Don’t see why Kaido lacks in offensive power compared to Gura. Not strictly about range but how much hurt he can put in someone. Based on what we’ve seen at least



I don't think Whitebeard's offensive power is superior to Kaido's _only _because he has the Gura Gura no Mi (although it is a big part of it), so I'm not sure why Blackbeard matters here.

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## Quikdraw7777 (May 12, 2022)

I don't think the version of Whitebeard being used here can handle the raw displays of Haki Kaido has shown.

He'll be able to trade blows, but I think prolonged fighting CQC with Kaido will force him to constantly stress high levels of Haki.

I think Kaido gives him a heart attack.

I say Kaido High~Extreme Diff.
I'm talking *8.5~9/10* difficulty.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 12, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Kaido melts his skull...WSC > WSM


Doesn’t creature include man?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShWanks (May 12, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Doesn’t creature include man?


No, Kaido's not a man he's a male. Man includes humans. He's generalized as a man but NOT human. Humans are creatures tho.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Dellinger (May 13, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> I don't think Whitebeard's offensive power is superior to Kaido's _only _because he has the Gura Gura no Mi (although it is a big part of it), so I'm not sure why Blackbeard matters here.


How else can you call it superior ? He’s not physically better than Kaido and his Haki is sure to deteriorate


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## YellowCosmos (May 13, 2022)

Dellinger said:


> How else can you call it superior ? He’s not physically better than Kaido and his Haki is sure to deteriorate



I said the fact that he has the Gura Gura no Mi is a big part of why I think his offensive power is superior to Kaido's. His offensive power is supplemented by his immense physical strength (which doesn't need to greater than Kaido's) and his advanced forms of haki (which I don't doubt he was still able to use).

You brought up Blackbeard as a counterpoint, and while I'm not sure whether you were referring to MF Blackbeard or Yonkou Blackbeard, I think it's fair to say that Blackbeard hasn't demonstrated much when it comes to physical strength and haki, nor (this particularly applies to MF Blackbeard) can we say he has mastered his Devil Fruit to the extent that Whitebeard must have.

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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Kaido for sure. Oldbeard lacked advcoc, stamina, speed, endurance, observation haki, basically everything aside from some island level AP ( I'm being optimistic here )

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## YellowCosmos (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Oldbeard lacked advcoc,



Can't really say WB lacked Advanced CoC when there's very little evidence the concept existed in Oda's mind pre-TS.


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> Can't really say WB lacked Advanced CoC when there's very little evidence the concept existed in Oda's mind pre-TS.


So we must grant him feats he does not have in his old age?   let me guess, he also has FS

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## YellowCosmos (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> So we must grant him feats he does not have in his old age?   let me guess, he also has FS



What you must do is your business to figure out. I don't see an issue with supposing he was using it.

I'm just pointing out that you're not in a position to say he didn't have or wasn't using advanced CoC in MF. You don't argue that a host of other characters (including VAs, Commanders and Admirals) don't have CoA Hardening or don't emit black lightning when using haki at certain levels of intensity, because everyone knows Oda came up with that stuff post-TS. Similarly, you shouldn't argue that Whitebeard wasn't using it at time, because the advanced application as far as we know is a post-TS invention. On top of that, he's a confirmed user of it...


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> What you must do is your business to figure out. I don't see an issue with supposing he was using it. If you do, explain your issue.
> 
> I'm just pointing out that you're not in a position to say he didn't have or wasn't using advanced CoC in MF. You don't argue that a host of other characters (including VAs, Commanders and Admirals) don't have CoA Hardening or don't emit black lightning when using haki at certain levels of intensity, because everyone knows Oda came up with that stuff post-TS. Similarly, you shouldn't argue that Whitebeard wasn't using it at time, because the advanced application as far as we know is a post-TS invention.


You're not pointing out anything that can prove interest regarding this debate. Idgaf if Oda thought about it or not back then, all I care is if we saw sickbeard using it and we did not. It's a poor attempt of an excuse. End of story.


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## YellowCosmos (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> You're not pointing out anything that can prove interest regarding this debate.



I only intended to point out that your statement that "Whitebeard lacked AdCoC" has no evidence supporting it, because the only evidence you can cite for it (its absence in MF) is not really evidence for it. It's a very limited criticism of your post.


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> I only intended to point out that your statement that "Whitebeard lacked AdCoC" has no evidence supporting it, because the only evidence you can cite for it (its absence in MF) is not really evidence for it. It's a very limited criticism of your post.


And I'm telling you that in battledome scenarios and situations, you use what you have. Whitebeard couldn't stop Ace's execution with the bare minimum of fodder knocking CoC amd you're trying to imply that he actually had adcoc? 
Lack of evidence IS evidence in a situation like this.


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## YellowCosmos (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> nd I'm telling you that in battledome scenarios and situations, you use what you have.



That's why I'm telling you don't have "Whitebeard didn't have adCoC". Follow your advice and use what you have.



Duhul10 said:


> Whitebeard couldn't stop Ace's execution with the bare minimum of fodder knocking CoC amd you're trying to imply that he actually had adcoc?



That was after a stab wound from Squardo, a heart attack, an exchange with Akainu which cannot have been easy on the stamina (plus a fistful of magma in the chest from the guy) and multiple injuries from other marines. All of that stuff weakened Whitebeard. You can't argue that his failure in that instance means that when starting fresh (or when he's as angry as he was after Ace's death), he wouldn't be able to use adCoC.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> That's why I'm telling you don't have "Whitebeard didn't have adCoC". Follow your advice and use what you have.
> 
> 
> 
> That was after a stab wound from Squardo, a heart attack, an exchange with Akainu which cannot have been easy on the stamina (plus a fistful of magma in the chest from the guy) and multiple injuries from other marines. All of that stuff weakened Whitebeard. You can't argue that his failure in that instance means that when starting fresh (or when he's as angry as he was after Ace's death), he wouldn't be able to use adCoC.


So you have no proof he can use advcoc. I have proof he couldn't even use normal CoC ( which even a fodder like pre ts Luffy could even though he had also been hurt ).

Again, bring me panels of sickbeard using anything close to advcoc and I'll agree with you, although we both actually know he couldn't, it's not really debatable.

Enough with the excuses, I'm quite sick of them


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## YellowCosmos (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> I have proof he couldn't even use normal CoC



No, you don't. This was covered in the last few posts.



Duhul10 said:


> Again, bring me panels of sickbeard using anything close to advcoc and I'll agree with you,



I'm not asking you to agree with me that Whitebeard had advCoC in MF, since that's not what I'm saying to you. Remember that I'm pointing out that you're unable to substantiate your claim that Whitebeard doesn't have adCoC in this fight. 

Whitebeard having advCoC in MF has much more to do with how we should think about Oda's retcons and "innovations" in general than with "feats".


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## Inferno Jewls (May 13, 2022)

Whitebeard high diffs

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> No, you don't. This was covered in the last few posts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do actually, a stab does not make you forget how to use coc.
Bro, again, for the milionth time. Bring any bit, tiny proof that he could use it. Just bring something.
What keeps you from saying: "how do we know sickbeard didn't have FS?", although the guy got easily tagged by multiple fodders from the beginning to the end of the war.
If a day will come when Oda will retcon that and specifically state WB had it at MF, you'll have a point, until then, it's all fanfiction


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## YellowCosmos (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> What keeps you from saying: "how do we know sickbeard didn't have FS?", although the guy got easily tagged by multiple fodders from the beginning to the end of the war.



Whitebeard didn't display FS in any of the flashbacks involving him and we have another top tier (Big Mom) which didn't use it, so taking it for granted that he has it is not acceptable.


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## Shunsuiju (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Bro, again, for the milionth time. Bring any bit, tiny proof that he could use it. Just bring something.





Duhul10 said:


> What keeps you from saying: "how do we know sickbeard didn't have FS?", although the guy got easily tagged by multiple fodders from the beginning to the end of the war.


Marco implied Whitebeard's reflexes had declined a lot:




It's very likely Whitebeard had future sight at one point, even if he couldn't use it in Marineford.



Ace couldn't even hit him in his sleep.



ShWanks said:


> No, Kaido's not a man he's a male. Man includes humans. He's generalized as a man but NOT human. Humans are creatures tho.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Marco implied Whitebeard's reflexes had declined a lot:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Proof of advcoc! Not just coc...
The ace part is not proof of FS, neither is marco's statement


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## Firo (May 13, 2022)

WB reacted to Kizaru on his way to intercept. If that wasn’t FS then it makes that feat even better tbh.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Shunsuiju (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Proof of advcoc! Not just coc...


Isn't sky splitting adcoc?


Duhul10 said:


> The ace part is not proof of FS, neither is marco's statement


I never said it was...


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Firo said:


> WB reacted to Kizaru on his way to intercept. If that wasn’t FS then it makes that feat even better tbh.


Old rusty rayleigh reacted to Kizaru from miles away. Marco kept up with him without getting overwhelmed for a good period of time and has no FS.


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> *Isn't sky splitting adcoc*?
> 
> I never said it was...


No.
Contactless Black lightning in a clash is.


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## Shunsuiju (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> No.
> Contactless Black lightning in a clash is.


It's the tell-tale sign. When Luffy unlocked it he split the sky:



Oden talked about how when Roger and Whitebeard clashed, they split the skies. This is Whitebeard in his prime using black lightning haki:



Oda never visualized haki pre-timeskip, but he used Shanks and Whitebeard clashing to signify the highest level of this haki.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> It's the tell-tale sign. When Luffy unlocked it he split the sky:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bolded is just assumption. There is also a visible difference in size between nonadvcoc clashes and advcoc clashes.

We also have BM and Kaido doing it without advcoc iirc so there you have it.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Bolded is just assumption. There is also a visible difference in size between nonadvcoc clashes and advcoc clashes.
> 
> We also have BM and Kaido doing it without advcoc iirc so there you have it.






Each time the sky was split post-timeskip. The only outlier is Shanks vs Whitebeard which was before Oda started using the gimmicky lines.


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Each time the sky was split post-timeskip. The only outlier is Shanks vs Whitebeard which was before Oda started using the gimmicky lines.


I know you're trying to push the narrative towards your direction by focusing on the split instead of focusing on what we know advcoc looks like. Be my guest and believe Sickbeard could use advcoc and never actually used it on panel 
Like I've told another individual in this thread or another, I can't recall, back up what you say with actual feats or don't bother with it.


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## Shunsuiju (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> I know you're trying to push the narrative towards your direction by focusing on the split instead of focusing on what we know advcoc looks like. Be my guest and believe Sickbeard could use advcoc and never actually used it on panel
> Like I've told another individual in this thread or another, I can't recall, back up what you say with actual feats or don't bother with it.


Focusing on what?


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Focusing on what?


On what I said


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## Eustathios (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> So you have no proof he can use advcoc. I have proof he couldn't even use normal CoC ( which even a fodder like pre ts Luffy could even though he had also been hurt ).
> 
> *Again, bring me panels of sickbeard using anything close to advcoc* and I'll agree with you, although we both actually know he couldn't, it's not really debatable.
> 
> Enough with the excuses, I'm quite sick of them



*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 13, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> *Spoiler*: __


I already posted it. He's in complete denial at this point.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> *Spoiler*: __


Not advcoc for reasons before mentioned. Kaido and big mom did it without advcoc and so did Shanks and WB, looked the same, felt the same, was the same ( although better for the one on onigashima )


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## Firo (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Old rusty rayleigh reacted to Kizaru from miles away. Marco kept up with him without getting overwhelmed for a good period of time and has no FS.


Marco tanked it from meters away. Didn’t WB do it at close range. Rayleigh also did it fairly close and that’s why he was considered a legend. Not gonna get into how strong Ray is because no way to actually know where he stands ultimately. We just know he’s up there.


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## Shunsuiju (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Not advcoc for reasons before mentioned. Kaido and big mom did it without advcoc and so did Shanks and WB, looked the same, felt the same, was the same ( although better for the one on onigashima )




See how Shanks vs Whitebeard is the only one without haki effects?


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> See how Shanks vs Whitebeard is the only one without haki effects?


See how BM vs Kaido one also has none and is vastly different from the Kaido vs Luffy one which we know had advcoc?


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## Grinningfox (May 13, 2022)

Sky splitting isn’t ACoC now?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## The crazy hacker (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> See how BM vs Kaido one also has none and is vastly different from the Kaido vs Luffy one which we know had advcoc?


How is sky splitting not an AdCoC feat? Yamato who has AdCoC couldn't sky split.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> How is sky splitting not an AdCoC feat? Yamato who has AdCoC couldn't sky split.


How is it difficult to simply analyse 2-3 images?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 4


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## Shunsuiju (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> See how BM vs Kaido one also has none and is vastly different from the Kaido vs Luffy one which we know had advcoc?


Oda was still figuring out how it looked. The important part is that he drew the black lightning in the cut away shot. In Shanks vs Whitebeard, there were no haki lines at all.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The crazy hacker (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> How is it difficult to simply analyse 2-3 images?


So Whitebeard has less proficiency in conquerors than Yamato?


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> So Whitebeard has less proficiency in conquerors than Yamato?


Sick old whitebeard has NO advcoc at all. Cry about it to Oda, not to me, I didn't draw this manga, unfortunately


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> *Oda was still figuring out how it looked*. The important part is that he drew the black lightning in the cut away shot. In Shanks vs Whitebeard, there were no haki lines at all.


That's the poorest excuse yet. 
It's just become fanfic at this point. Years later post MF, Oda still made the difference between an advcoc clash and a non-advcoc clash clear ( luffy vs Kaido ; bm vs Kaido ).

I never thought the haters would reach this level of creativity . What's next ? May I say Kaido can use Meigou?


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## Firo (May 13, 2022)

Arguing Haki shit from pre timeskip is kinda nonsensical especially since it wasn’t as fleshed out as it is now. It wasn’t even fully explained when it was first used in Amazon Lily. Even in the war, we barely knew why people were tagging Logia users until Ray gave the explanation much later.


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Firo said:


> Arguing Haki shit from pre timeskip is kinda nonsensical especially since it wasn’t as fleshed out as it is now. It wasn’t even fully explained when it was first used in Amazon Lily. Even in the war, we barely knew why people were tagging Logia users until Ray gave the explanation much later.


Or in other words "Arguing haki sh*t against characters I want to win in a debate is kinda nonsensical and shouldn't be allowed. We'll give all Wano feats to all top tiers I like so that they can look good against Kaido". Is my translation on point?


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## Shunsuiju (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> That's the poorest excuse yet.
> It's just become fanfic at this point. Years later post MF, Oda still made the difference between an advcoc clash and a non-advcoc clash clear ( luffy vs Kaido ; bm vs Kaido ).
> 
> I never thought the haters would reach this level of creativity . What's next ? May I say Kaido can use Meigou?


Creative? That's ironic.

You're out here claiming Kaido and Big Mom were holding back in their clash.


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## Firo (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Or in other words "Arguing haki sh*t against characters I want to win in a debate is kinda nonsensical and shouldn't be allowed. We'll give all Wano feats to all top tiers I like so that they can look good against Kaido". Is my translation on point?


This level of comprehension. God damn.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Friendly 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Creative? That's ironic.
> 
> You're out here claiming Kaido and Big Mom were holding back in their clash.


Both in base and ended up forming an alliance  + clash not looking like an advcoc clash

Hmmmm

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Firo said:


> This level of comprehension. God damn.


I'll gladly accept the concession   
You always hand me concessions of the highest quality and I respect you for that. Others lack style while conceeding, not you my brother, not you !

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 14, 2022)

Primebeard is the one who would extreme diff Kaido.

Old beard gets high diffed.

Old sick beard gets mid diffed.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shunsuiju (May 14, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> Primebeard is the one who would extreme diff Kaido.
> 
> Old beard gets high diffed.
> 
> Old sick beard gets mid diffed.


When was Whitebeard ever old and not sick?


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 14, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> When was Whitebeard ever old and not sick?


When he was old and not sick obviously.


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## Shunsuiju (May 14, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> When he was old and not sick obviously.


In the story I mean


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 14, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> In the story I mean


In this case probably Old WB who is on IV or pre Squard stab Old WB before his sickness and deterioration  started coming in on MF.

By sick WB I mean WB who was starting to deteriorate, get heart attacks and his Haki etc. started weakening exponentially due to his illness.


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## Shunsuiju (May 14, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> In this case probably Old WB who is on IV or pre Squard stab Old WB before his sickness and deterioration  started coming in on MF.
> 
> By sick WB I mean WB who was starting to deteriorate, get heart attacks and his Haki etc. started weakening exponentially due to his illness.


Ok thanks for clarification.

So you think Primebeard~Kaido>Oldbeard?


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 14, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Ok thanks for clarification.
> 
> So you think Primebeard~Kaido>Oldbeard?


Primebeard >= Kaido > Oldbeard for me yea


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## Shunsuiju (May 14, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> Primebeard >= Kaido > Oldbeard for me yea


Hard disagree but we'll leave it at that.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Duhul10 (May 14, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Hard disagree but we'll leave it at that.


Featwise, portrayal wise and hype wise, he might even be optimistic with the ">=" from primebeard to Kaido ( optimistic for Wb )


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## Shunsuiju (May 14, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Featwise, portrayal wise and hype wise, he might even be optimistic with the ">=" from primebeard to Kaido ( optimistic for Wb )


Prime Whitebeard has little to no feats but he has far greater hype


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## Duhul10 (May 14, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Prime Whitebeard has little to no feats but he has far greater hype


Far greater hype than the wsc, wsp, the being to awaken joyboy and also push said God who can literally warp reality to to extremest diff after going through a gauntlet? The guy feared by the gorosei and avoided by this same wb? The guy who at 15 was hyped to the level of making the Rocks crew invincible?


All wb had was the WSM title, with Kaido not being a man

Again, Kqido is not certainly above, or below, I'd rather consider them extreme diff either way


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## TheWiggian (May 14, 2022)

Primebeard destroys Kaido if even Oldbeard is stronger than him.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 14, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Far greater hype than the wsc, wsp,


Hold your horses, old Whitebeard held the title of strongest when Kaido was alive. In his prime the gap would be even bigger. It was said by Buggy he was the only man to ever fight Roger to a standstill. This is while the likes of Garp, Sengoku and Shiki were roaming the seas. Sengoku stated if Shiki and Roger were to ever fight, the winner would be clear:



Roger and Whitebeard were on a level of their own in a world of monsters.


Duhul10 said:


> the being to awaken joyboy and also push said God who can literally warp reality to to extremest diff after going through a gauntlet?


Losing to Luffy at this point in the story isn't really helping your case here when Luffy's benchmark is Roger and by extension Whitebeard.


Duhul10 said:


> The guy feared by the gorosei and avoided by this same wb?


The Gorosei didn't fear Whitebeard? They were trembling at the thought of him and Shanks meeting.

Whitebeard avoided Kaido simply because he had no interest in fighting him and the chaos that would come from it.


Duhul10 said:


> The guy who at 15 was hyped to the level of making the Rocks crew invincible?


He's strong for sure.


Duhul10 said:


> All wb had was the WSM title, with Kaido not being a man






Their titles are completely contradictory


Duhul10 said:


> Again, Kqido is not certainly above, or below, I'd rather consider them extreme diff either way


You would oppose the opinion of Sengoku, Doflamingo and Big Mom?


*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Duhul10 (May 14, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Hold your horses, old Whitebeard held the title of strongest when Kaido was alive. In his prime the gap would be even bigger. It was said by Buggy he was the only man to ever fight Roger to a standstill. This is while the likes of Garp, Sengoku and Shiki were roaming the seas. Sengoku stated if Shiki and Roger were to ever fight, the winner would be clear:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I'd rather take Oda's, who's portrayed Kaido as such.
Wb held a fake title which was debunked during mf by numerous characters.
Buggy is an EB villain who's got no idea oc the current tiers when it comes to the big guys, this aside from the fact that he's a fodder.
BM knows WB has the strongest crew and she also talked about a "long ago" WB.
The gorosei fear angering Kaido, I don't recall them saying that about WB, against whom they actually went at war.
Rest of the post is irrelevant stuff, which has nothing to do with current Kaido, the being to pull out Joyboy after 800 years.


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## trance (May 14, 2022)

WB's bounty > kaido's bounty

Reactions: Like 2


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## Eustathios (May 14, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Yes, I'd rather take Oda's, who's portrayed Kaido as such.
> Wb held a fake title which was debunked during mf by numerous characters.


Cope.


Duhul10 said:


> Buggy is an EB villain *who's got no idea oc the current tiers when it comes to the big guys*, this aside from the fact that he's a fodder.


Baseless and hilarious when you realize all of Kaido's hype comes from other people's statements.


Duhul10 said:


> BM knows WB has the strongest crew and she also talked about a "long ago" WB.


WB's crew does not matter. A Yonkou can defeat 2 crews at the same time, easily, remember? That's what you guys were saying. Be consistent please.


Duhul10 said:


> The gorosei fear angering Kaido, I don't recall them saying that about WB, against whom they actually went at war.



*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 










But according to you, Garp and Sengoku don't know anything, am I right? Just as you like to ignore manga panels like WB v Shanks or argue in bad faith in general.

Reactions: Winner 4 | Informative 1


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## Duhul10 (May 14, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Cope.
> 
> Baseless and hilarious when you realize all of Kaido's hype comes from other people's statements.
> 
> ...


First 2 points are not worth replying to, I'll take those as concessions as they don't actually build a point

Wb's crew matters, it's stronger than any other yonko crew.

The scans prove nothing, show me the gorosei


Also yes, Sengoku and Garp had no idea about WB's state, unless you can specifically prove they knew.


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## Shunsuiju (May 14, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Yes, I'd rather take Oda's, who's portrayed Kaido as such.


 

You know Big Mom, Sengoku and Doflamingo are characters written by Eiichiro Oda right? 


Duhul10 said:


> Wb held a fake title which was debunked during mf by numerous characters.


Bad faith Duhul.

The guy who cites SBS corners to prove Kaido is the strongest claims that the narrators words are false.




Duhul10 said:


> Buggy is an EB villain who's got no idea oc the current tiers when it comes to the big guys, this aside from the fact that he's a fodder.


Buggy is a first hand witness.

Again, your attempts to downplay other people's statements when that's all Kaido's hype lies on shows you only argue in bad faith.


Duhul10 said:


> BM talked about a "long ago" WB.


So you agree prime Whitebeard was above Kaido? You make this so easy.


Duhul10 said:


> The gorosei fear angering Kaido, I don't recall them saying that about WB, against whom they actually went at war.


Why would they fear Kaido? Everytime he challenged them he lost.  


Duhul10 said:


> Rest of the post is irrelevant stuff, which has nothing to do with current Kaido, the being to pull out Joyboy after 800 years.


Oh yeah, move past all the stuff you can't refute.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (May 14, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> You know Big Mom, Sengoku and Doflamingo are characters written by Eiichiro Oda right?
> 
> Bad faith Duhul.
> 
> ...


What a stupid post   gosh...
Ok...
I don't cite SBS corners, the AW community does so that aLainu looks better in front of other top tiers as he was f*ed up by an almost dead WB.
Buggy is a first hand witness of prime WB, but not prime Kaido
I agree Prime wb + his crew > Kaido + his crew

Ask the gorosei why they fear him, not me, aside from his obvious superiority in comparison to their lackeys. Also, he only lost on purpose based on the info in the last chapter  the marines are his food providers.

You're too weak for me...you know it...I know it...every non AW member knows it, but you're fun cause you're not rude

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## trance (May 14, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> I agree Prime wb + his crew > Kaido + his crew


the crews cancel out so that leaves primebeard > kaido


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## Duhul10 (May 14, 2022)

trance said:


> *the crews cancel out* so that leaves primebeard > kaido


Definitely not   Kaido's commanders were a disappointment


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## trance (May 14, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Kaido's commanders were a disappointment


how? it took zoro and sanji getting a major power up to beat king and queen respectively and jack only went down against dog and cat when they were in their super saiyan mode  

is primebeard >= kaido really such a stance you will avoid at all costs?


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## Duhul10 (May 14, 2022)

trance said:


> how? it took zoro and sanji getting a major power up to beat king and queen respectively and jack only went down against dog and cat when they were in their super saiyan mode
> 
> is primebeard >= kaido really such a stance you will avoid at all costs?


It took a Zoro who barely understood his powers and had no Ashura 
And 
a Sanji who literally kicked Queen's ass, like the fight didn't even look too close.
Jack's loyalty surpasses his strength, to say the least.


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## trance (May 14, 2022)

GO D USOPP said:


> old beard is a more refined better version of kaido


ok how is oldbeard a "more refined, better version" of kaido?


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## trance (May 14, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> It took a Zoro who barely understood his powers and had no Ashura
> And
> a Sanji who literally kicked Queen's ass, like the fight didn't even look too close.


yea those were MAJOR power ups

king and queen should not be much weaker than marco and jozu if at all



> Jack's loyalty surpasses his strength, to say the least.


could vista do beat than jack against them? doubtful tbh


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## Shunsuiju (May 14, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> *I don't cite SBS corners*, the AW community does so that aLainu looks better in front of other top tiers as he was f*ed up by an almost dead WB.


 


Duhul10 said:


> Buggy is a first hand witness of prime WB, but not prime Kaido


What does Kaido have to do with this?


Duhul10 said:


> I agree Prime wb + his crew > Kaido + his crew


Way to dodge that bullet.  

But anyways, you and I both know that comment had nothing to do with crews. Garp, Sengoku, Big Mom and Doflamingo have all on different occasions referred to Whitebeard as the king of the sea. He sat before the thrown but never took the seat. Meanwhile, Kaido's been twiddling his thumbs for 20 years ever since Oden sonned his ass. And now a rookie, who hasn't even matched Roger's accomplishments is about to defeat him.


Duhul10 said:


> Ask the gorosei why they fear him, not me, aside from his obvious superiority in comparison to their lackeys. Also, he only lost on purpose based on the info in the last chapter  the marines are his food providers.


Kaido only incites fear because he's a reckless mongrel with no regard for human life.


Duhul10 said:


> You're too weak for me...you know it...I know it...every non AW member knows it, but you're fun cause you're not rude

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Lmao (May 14, 2022)

Old Whitebeard was WSM and is stronger than Kaido. However the gap between them is small and Kaido is the worst kind of opponent for prolonged battle.

Whitebeard has the means to put Kaido down but he will not manage to do so before his condition hinders him.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 14, 2022)

trance said:


> WB's bounty > kaido's bounty


Well we have never seen someone's bounty be decreased by the marines once they attain it in their prime .

I mean dang their bounty still exists even after their death.


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## trance (May 15, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> Well we have never seen someone's bounty be decreased by the marines once they attain it in their prime .
> 
> I mean dang their bounty still exists even after their death.


i already said kiddo wins here

i was just tryna see how duhul would respond to it

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Duhul10 (May 15, 2022)

Lmao said:


> Old Whitebeard was WSM and is stronger than Kaido. However the gap between them is small and Kaido is the worst kind of opponent for prolonged battle.
> 
> Whitebeard has the means to put Kaido down but he will not manage to do so before his condition hinders him.


Therefore Old WB is below Kaido   
Bruh, this post felt like a dog running after it's own tail and finally catching it


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## Duhul10 (May 15, 2022)

trance said:


> i already said kiddo wins here
> 
> i was just tryna see how duhul would respond to it


To what? 70+ yo WB, who was friend to the PK, having a slightly higher bounty than 59 yo Kaido?


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## trance (May 15, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> who was friend to the PK


does this even matter?


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## Duhul10 (May 15, 2022)

trance said:


> does this even matter?


Yes, of course


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## trance (May 15, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Yes, of course


 how?


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## Duhul10 (May 15, 2022)

trance said:


> how?


by being a friend of the WG's greatest enemy and a man to whom said enemy might have shared his secrets.


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## trance (May 15, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> by being a friend of the WG's greatest enemy and a man to whom said enemy might have shared his secrets.


care to prove the WG knew roger shared his secrets to WB? as far as the WG was concerned, they were lifelong rivals. why would rivals share secrets with each other?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Duhul10 (May 15, 2022)

trance said:


> care to prove the WG knew roger shared his secrets to WB? as far as the WG was concerned, they were lifelong rivals. why would rivals share secrets with each other?


So the WG immediately finds out 2 yonkos meet, but they wouldn't find out if two pirates like those 2 are having a picnic?
Also, again, WB was way older than Kaido.


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## trance (May 15, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> So the WG immediately finds out 2 yonkos meet, but they wouldn't find out if two pirates like those 2 are having a picnic?
> Also, again, WB was way older than Kaido.


so what you're saying is, WB didn't earn his bounty thru his own strength and merits then right?


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## Duhul10 (May 15, 2022)

trance said:


> so what you're saying is, WB didn't earn his bounty thru his own strength and merits then right?


He earned it by that, by age and possibly ( imo ) also by being associated with the PK.


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## trance (May 15, 2022)

posted this mf in the wrong damn thread  



Duhul10 said:


> and possibly ( imo ) also by being associated with the PK.


but you can't prove it so why even mention it?

these are the facts: WB's bounty is higher than kaido's

the circumstances regarding them can only be speculated on

you said before that the gorosei feared kaido more than WB since they were willing to go to war with WB



Duhul10 said:


> The gorosei fear angering Kaido, I don't recall them saying that about WB, against whom they actually went at war.



but WB has the higher bounty indicating the gorosei view him as a greater threat but they fear him less than kaido despite assigning him a lower bounty?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## trance (May 15, 2022)

disclaimer- im not saying bounties are the truest way to guage strength

i just don't agree with your claim the gorosei feared kaido more than WB

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (May 15, 2022)

trance said:


> posted this mf in the wrong damn thread
> 
> 
> but you can't prove it so why even mention it?
> ...


Using bounties as a certain means of scalling the strength of two characters? We don't really do that here. WB had once the title of WSM and at some point he might have been stronger than Kaido. His health declined, his fame remained and so his bounty grew. He was wrongfully believed to still have been the WSM when in reality he was on medical support.

I don't really need to prove it, bounties are not straight-up power levels. What you should note is how close Kaido is to them in spite of one of them wrongfully living with a title up until he was 72 and the other one being the guy who discovered op.



Also lol at the Gorosei actually caring about a 4-500 mil difference between 2 yonkos ( bounties which aren't even calculated by them ).


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## trance (May 15, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Using bounties as a certain means of scalling the strength of two characters? We don't really do that here.


i know hence the post right after 

ive been here longer than you dude  



> His health declined, his fame remained and so his bounty grew.


how do you know his bounty grew in his old age? do you have proof?



> Also lol at the Gorosei actually caring about a 4-500 mil difference between 2 yonkos ( bounties which aren't even calculated by them ).


again i'm not citing bounties as a way to definitively guage strength

i just don't agree with your claim they feared kaido more than WB


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## Duhul10 (May 15, 2022)

trance said:


> i know hence the post right after
> 
> ive been here longer than you dude
> 
> ...


Age is just a number hombre 
How do you know it didn't ? He had 13 more years than Kaido to have his bounty grow. Logic dictates this. What have you got?

You brought bounties, as a means to compare the opinion of the Gorosei on the two and I've proved you that it's like really not relevant because the bounty and the title were everything that was left of WB .


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## trance (May 15, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> How do you know it didn't ? He had 13 more years than Kaido to have his bounty grow. Logic dictates this. What have you got?


you made the claim it grew  



> You brought bounties, as a means to compare the opinion of the Gorosei on the two and I've proved you that it's like really not rellevant because the bounty and the title were everything that was left of WB .


it showcases threat level so it can't be entirely dismissed either

do you honestly believe they fear kaido more? and based on what?


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## Crow (May 15, 2022)

Kaido wins. Old Whitebeard on life support couldn't go through the same gauntlet of Oden's Retainer's, the R5, Yamato and Luffy, Kaido's durability and stamina is too much, Whitebeard gets outlasted and put down by Kaido in a very high diff battle. People keep bringing up the WSM argument but that was pre-skip and not everyone knew that he was on life support and his powers had waned, he might've been able to clash with Shanks but he got exposed at Marineford.


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## trance (May 15, 2022)

"  " has some high quality smugness to it for sure

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 15, 2022)

@Duhul10 why you run away from our discussion ?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Duhul10 (May 15, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> @Duhul10 why you run away from our discussion ?


I can't even recall my last post in our discussion. I can't keep up rn cause I've got like 5 people sending replies and an exam in 2 days. Did you say something interesting or?


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## Shunsuiju (May 15, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> I can't even recall my last post in our discussion. I can't keep up rn cause I've got like 5 people sending replies and an exam in 2 days. Did you say something interesting or?


Oh ok, I'll take that as a concession.


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## Duhul10 (May 15, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Oh ok, I'll take that as a concession.


I do concede in front of my exams, indeed


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## ShWanks (May 16, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Marco implied Whitebeard's reflexes had declined a lot:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kaido is male not HUman. The fact he has WSC title at the same time WB has WSM title means Kaido isn't considered a "man".


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## Shunsuiju (May 16, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Kaido is male not HUman. The fact he has WSC title at the same time WB has WSM title means Kaido isn't considered a "man".


That's clearly not the intention of the author as Whitebeard is also referred to as the strongest pirate. Pirate, creature and man are being used synonymously here. I also doubt Kaido would be excluded from the general usage of the term man. It just seems like a wild reach to me.

Do you think these two panels are inherently contradictory or not?




Replace Killer with Buggy, would he share the same opinion about Kaido? Or are we lead to believe Whitebeard and Kaido held the same title at varying points in the story?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShWanks (May 16, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> That's clearly not the intention of the author as Whitebeard is also referred to as the strongest pirate. Pirate, creature and man are being used synonymously here. I also doubt Kaido would be excluded from the general usage of the term man. It just seems like a wild reach to me.
> 
> Do you think these two panels are inherently contradictory or not?
> 
> ...


Buggy hasn't seen Kaido's power first hand like Killer & vice versa. Actually Ace novel confirms Buggy's statement was incorrect because Kaido was said to be stronger than WB meaning Buggy was going off personal experience while Kaido is said to be Strongest by EVERYONE excluding Buggy.


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## nyamad (May 16, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Buggy hasn't seen Kaido's power first hand like Killer & vice versa. Actually Ace novel confirms Buggy's statement was incorrect because Kaido was said to be stronger than WB meaning Buggy was going off personal experience while Kaido is said to be Strongest by EVERYONE excluding Buggy.


Buggy has also been hiding in east blue for the last decade or so, so he statement relates to primebeard, not the sick medicated WB we were introduced to.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (May 16, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Buggy hasn't seen Kaido's power first hand like Killer & vice versa. Actually Ace novel confirms Buggy's statement was incorrect because Kaido was said to be stronger than WB meaning Buggy was going off personal experience while Kaido is said to be Strongest by EVERYONE excluding Buggy.


Why is the ace novel especially canon compared to other supplementary material like the one that says wb is the world’s strongest pirate


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## ShWanks (May 17, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Why is the ace novel especially canon compared to other supplementary material like the one that says wb is the world’s strongest pirate


Because Ace novel actually explains what the "World's Strongest Pirate" title means while other supplementary material doesn't. It isn't solely combat related like Kaido's title. It's a combination of strength & piracy career.


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## ClannadFan (May 17, 2022)

My biggest problem with this place is the hypocrisy.

So KaidoBros want us to take his WSC title seriously, but have never taken WBs WSM title seriously. And wonder why nobody takes them seriously.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (May 17, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Because Ace novel actually explains what the "World's Strongest Pirate" title means while other supplementary material doesn't. It isn't solely combat related like Kaido's title. It's a combination of strength & piracy career.


I thought that explanation was for WSM in the ace novel?


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## Perrin (May 17, 2022)

Lets wait till we see what awakened kaidou can do first.


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## Turrin (May 17, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> I thought that explanation was for WSM in the ace novel?


Nether is true.

Ace Novel does not give a clear answer period. It has a character name Skull who collect rumors about Pirates and uses those to guess at the meaning of their titles. Skull thinks WB is WSP because of how he lived his life, while he thinks Kaidou is the strongest 1v1 because no one can beat him 1v1. So from Skull perspective Kaidou > WB 1v1.

However other perspectives are presented in the novel that are more valid then Skulls. The Narrator considers WB the strongest and Narrator should know better then Skull. Shanks also heavily implies he views WB as by far the strongest as he fears fighting WB, but says nothing about Kaidou. And so on.
—-
All the Ace novel really makes clear is that the WS title aren’t straight forward as this forum tried to pretend they are and there is not a clear consensus in verse as to who is actually the strongest

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## Eustathios (May 17, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> I thought that explanation was for WSM in the ace novel?


The novel doesn't explain anything. It just presents different points of view in verse. According to the information collected by the Spade Pirates, Whitebeard was the strongest in the world, but it's hard to define "the strongest" in verse. So Ace's crewmate, Skull, comes up with his own interpretations. 


*Spoiler*: __


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## Seraphoenix (May 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Shanks also heavily implies he views WB as by far the strongest as he fears fighting WB, but says nothing about Kaidou. And so on.


Shanks never implies anything like that. Stop lying.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (May 17, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> The novel doesn't explain anything. It just presents different points of view in verse. According to the information collected by the Spade Pirates, Whitebeard was the strongest in the world, but it's hard to define "the strongest" in verse. So Ace's crewmate, Skull, comes up with his own interpretations.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


Who would have guessed shwanks representing their interpretation as canon?????


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## Turrin (May 17, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Shanks never implies anything like that. Stop lying.



He asks Ace which Yonko he would be going after and then specifically says “it couldn’t be WB” heavily implying he views WB as the bigger threat and then talks about how he would rather did then fight WB. Extremely clear Shanks seed WB > Kaidou by far

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Seraphoenix (May 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> He asks Ace which Yonko he would be going after and then specifically says “it couldn’t be WB” heavily implying he views WB as the bigger threat and *then talks about how he would rather did then fight WB*. Extremely clear Shanks seed WB > Kaidou by far


Shanks doesn't say that clown. That's one of his men.

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## trance (May 17, 2022)

turrin thinks shanks is afraid of WB when he went solo on his ship to talk and was the first to draw his weapon

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 6


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## MrAnalogies (May 17, 2022)

Stat comparison

Physical Strength: probably even
Speed: Kaido
Durability: Kaido by a lot
Stamina: Kaido, but WB is close
Offensive power: WB
Technique: even
Weapons: club slightly better against spear
Experience: WB
Range: up close even, long range Kaido
Haki: Kaido by a lot
Devil fruit matchup: tough dragon scales+armament would shield Kaido from a lot of the gura damage. Flaming dragon would also be a problem. Advantage Kaido unless WB is willing to destroy the Earth going all out.


Kaido has multiple obvious advantages here. Even if you want to wank WB's offensive ability and claim it's twice as high as Kaido's, the fact old WB was sick, and couldn't fully use his haki will be a major disadvantage in a long drawn out fight. Kaido is clearly faster with future sight when he bothers using it. Kaido has both the durability to survive multiple serious attacks even if he gets lazy on defense and the stamina/passive regeneration to outlast WB.

Kaido wins mid to moderately high difficulty.


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## GreenEggsAHam (May 17, 2022)

trance said:


> turrin thinks shanks is afraid of WB when he went solo on his ship to talk and was the first to draw his weapon


Sure he wasn’t afraid but shanks  still implied  WB was the strongest


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## Shunsuiju (May 17, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Buggy hasn't seen Kaido's power first hand like Killer & vice versa.


Why does that matter?


ShWanks said:


> Actually Ace novel confirms Buggy's statement was incorrect because Kaido was said to be stronger than WB


I'm not talking about outside of canon material


ShWanks said:


> meaning Buggy was going off personal experience while Kaido is said to be Strongest by EVERYONE excluding Buggy.


Everyone excluding Buggy, Sengoku, Garp, Mihawk, Doflamingo, Big Mom, the narrator.


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## trance (May 17, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Sure he wasn’t afraid but shanks  still implied  WB was the strongest


WB with his health stabilized and more freely able to call upon his coc? possibly

WB at MF who can only fight for about 10 minutes before he's at extreme risk for a heart attack? nah


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## Seraphoenix (May 17, 2022)

trance said:


> turrin thinks shanks is afraid of WB when he went solo on his ship to talk and was the first to draw his weapon


Bruh it’s absolutely comical lmao

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## MartyMcFly1 (May 17, 2022)

The more I think about this, the more I don’t see any scenario where Kaido beats Whitebeard in any form. Even when Whitebeard was old and sick, Kaido didn’t move on him until he was thoroughly distracted by a more pressing concern.

Whitebeard’s representation by Oda is damn near flawless, even in an arc where he was gonna die the entire time. If Kaido really could hang with Whitebeard, why did he wait so long to go for One Piece? He waited until after Whitebeard died, until then he just Posted up, and we know Kaido actually wanted it. Whitebeard didn’t.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Chip Skylark (May 17, 2022)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> The more I think about this, the more I don’t see any scenario where Kaido beats Whitebeard in any form. Even when Whitebeard was old and sick, Kaido didn’t move on him until he was thoroughly distracted by a more pressing concern.
> 
> Whitebeard’s representation by Oda is damn near flawless, even in an arc where he was gonna die the entire time. If Kaido really could hang with Whitebeard, why did he wait so long to go for One Piece? He waited until after Whitebeard died, until then he just Posted up, and we know Kaido actually wanted it. Whitebeard didn’t.


Kaido wanted to die in a blaze of glory, and he saw the Paramount War as his opportunity for that. The battle where WB and the Navy’s best fought all out. He wasn’t aware that WB was sick.

WB also didn’t have a Poneglyph. Or at least he wasn’t known to have one as Neko(?) didn’t mention his ownership of one when discussing where the remaining Poneglyphs were located. So he wasn’t an immediate obstacle in regards to finding One Piece.

We also know Kaido wasn’t just sitting around doing nothing since the SMILE project was in works even before the time skip. We’ve known that Kaido has been preparing for a big war against the entire world for a while.

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## MartyMcFly1 (May 17, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Kaido wanted to die in a blaze of glory, and he saw the Paramount War as his opportunity for that. The battle where WB and the Navy’s best fought all out. He wasn’t aware that WB was sick.
> 
> WB also didn’t have a Poneglyph. Or at least he wasn’t known to have one as Neko(?) didn’t mention his ownership of one when discussing where the remaining Poneglyphs were located. So he wasn’t an immediate obstacle in regards to finding One Piece.
> 
> We also know Kaido wasn’t just sitting around doing nothing since the SMILE project was in works even before the time skip. We’ve known that Kaido has been preparing for a big war against the entire world for a while.


Whitebeard had no desire to seek out the poneglyphs and only learned the true history in passing out of momentary curiosity. This arc Kaido seems to actively want to be Pirate King and find One Piece and made zero moves to actually complete that until recently.

If I had to guess, his suicidal nature lines up with his treatment of Yamato. He feels shame about what happened with Oden and Yamato was a constant reminder of what happened.

Kaido at the very least knew Whitebeard was in his 70’s before he decided to challenge him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (May 17, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Shanks doesn't say that clown. That's one of his men.


Yes Shanks does, he’s talking to Shanks the entire time. Actually read this:


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## Turrin (May 17, 2022)

trance said:


> turrin thinks shanks is afraid of WB when he went solo on his ship to talk and was the first to draw his weapon


The key word there was talk. Shanks never intended to fight WB. Plus there is a chance Shanks got stronger from the Ace Novel time period. Really doesn’t matter as I’m only citing the novel


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## Turrin (May 17, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Stat comparison
> 
> Physical Strength: probably even
> Speed: Kaido
> ...


WB offense is much higher then twice as high when you realize he was doing similar AP or greater casually against John the Giant that Kaidou’s ultimate finisher move was doing. Imagine what WB finish move with Gura is actually like.


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## A Optimistic (May 17, 2022)

Shanks came into Whitebeard’s ship alone, knocked most of the Whitebeard pirates unconscious, destroyed part of Whitebeard’s ship, and then proceeded to attack Whitebeard, and was grouped alongside Whitebeard according to Kaido 

but somehow shanks is scared of whitebeard

makes perfect sense. Learned something new today.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 3


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## Perrin (May 17, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Shanks came into Whitebeard’s ship alone, knocked most of the Whitebeard pirates unconscious, destroyed part of Whitebeard’s ship, and then proceeded to attack Whitebeard, and was grouped alongside Whitebeard according to Kaido
> 
> but somehow shanks is scared of whitebeard
> 
> makes perfect sense. Learned something new today.


Project confidence, if you’re in a similar situation then do the same.


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## Chip Skylark (May 17, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Project confidence, if you’re in a similar situation then do the same.


Think Shanks actually attacking WB goes beyond just a show of false bravado.

You’re supposed to try and look big in front of a bear. Not throw a punch. Unless you’re Mike Tyson. Shanks is Mike Tyson.

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## Shunsuiju (May 17, 2022)

I don't think the book implied Shanks was scared of Whitebeard. He basically said the same thing as Big Mom in different words:

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## Turrin (May 17, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Shanks came into Whitebeard’s ship alone, knocked most of the Whitebeard pirates unconscious, destroyed part of Whitebeard’s ship, and then proceeded to attack Whitebeard, and was grouped alongside Whitebeard according to Kaido
> 
> but somehow shanks is scared of whitebeard
> 
> makes perfect sense. Learned something new today.


Didn’t realize you were in denial. Learned something new today


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## MrAnalogies (May 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> WB offense is much higher then twice as high when you realize he was doing similar AP or greater casually against John the Giant that Kaidou’s ultimate finisher move was doing. Imagine what WB finish move with Gura is actually like.


Like I said, even if you want to wank WBs offense to being 2-3x higher (it isn't, but let's say it is), Kaido outlasts him with superior speed, durability, and haki.


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## ShWanks (May 17, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Why does that matter?
> 
> I'm not talking about outside of canon material
> 
> Everyone excluding Buggy, Sengoku, Garp, Mihawk, Doflamingo, Big Mom, the narrator.


None of them called WB stronger than Kaido...in fact Doffy would gladly prefer to fight WB than Kaido lol he crapped himself at the mention of his name. BM implied she could beat WB with a better crew/alliance. Sengoku called him WSM which doesn't apply to WSC. Same goes for Garp & Mihawk. The narrator called Kaido the WSC & if it's one one one bet on Kaido...

They straight thought Rocks was invincible due to Kaido joining.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShWanks (May 17, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> I thought that explanation was for WSM in the ace novel?


Nope it was for WSP


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## Shunsuiju (May 17, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> None of them called WB stronger than Kaido...in fact Doffy would gladly prefer to fight WB than Kaido lol he crapped himself at the mention of his name. BM implied she could beat WB with a better crew/alliance. Sengoku called him WSM which doesn't apply to WSC. Same goes for Garp & Mihawk. The narrator called Kaido the WSC & if it's one one one bet on Kaido...
> 
> They straight thought Rocks was invincible due to Kaido joining.


Sure dude

Reactions: Funny 3


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## trance (May 18, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> in fact Doffy would gladly prefer to fight WB than Kaido


only because he had the full force of the navy and the seven warlords backing him

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## Seraphoenix (May 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Yes Shanks does, he’s talking to Shanks the entire time. Actually read this:


"Red-hair and his men" followed by dialogue in italics showing the men's comments. Reading comprehension is tough huh?

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## trance (May 18, 2022)

yea it was shanks' minions who fears WB  

the most you could extrapolate from that on shanks' part is him possibly acknowledging WB as the WSM which in no way equates to him fearing WB


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## ShWanks (May 18, 2022)

trance said:


> only because he had the full force of the navy and the seven warlords backing him


WB's name doesn't strike terror into Doffy is the point lol.


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## Eustathios (May 18, 2022)

The stuff I read sometimes in this forum


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## trance (May 18, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> WB's name doesn't strike terror into Doffy is the point lol.


you literally cannot properly compare the two instances but ok


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## Turrin (May 18, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> "Red-hair and his men" followed by dialogue in italics showing the men's comments. Reading comprehension is tough huh?


The words are italic because they are Shank’s thoughts. It’s Shanks he’s talking to before and Shanks he’s talking to after. Therefore these are Shanks thoughts. Yeah I guess reading comprehension is tough but don’t worry we will get you through it

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Turrin (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Like I said, even if you want to wank WBs offense to being 2-3x higher (it isn't, but let's say it is), Kaido outlasts him with superior speed, durability, and haki.


No it’s way higher then that. WB casual unnamed attacks are >= Kaidou’s strongest. Therefore his named attacks are probably x10-100x stronger then Kaidou’s which we have the support for in his World Ending power.

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## GreenEggsAHam (May 18, 2022)

trance said:


> WB at MF who can only fight for about 10 minutes before he's at extreme risk for a heart attack? nah


1st, stop with this headcannon that he had a heart attack every 10 minutes, he had one heart attack throughout the whole war.

2nd, you’re right he wasn’t the strongest anymore but he was still the strongest pirate according to oda


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## trance (May 18, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> 1st, stop with this headcannon that he had a heart attack every 10 minutes, he had one heart attack throughout the whole war.


two, one while fighting akainu and another while attempting to use coc 

and in a fight against shanks with no PIS, just one heart attack seals the deal


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## GreenEggsAHam (May 18, 2022)

trance said:


> two, one while fighting akainu and another while attempting to use coc


The other one from using coc is due to injury not a heart attack



trance said:


> and in a fight against shanks with no PIS, just one heart attack seals the deal


He got heart attack due to injury from multiple marines in a 1v1 he’s perfectly clean and with no PIS he’s destroying everything including shanks


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## TheWiggian (May 18, 2022)

trance said:


> two, one while fighting akainu and another while attempting to use coc
> 
> and in a fight against shanks with no PIS, just one heart attack seals the deal



It doesn't because Shanks only has 1 arm.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## trance (May 18, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> The other one from using coc is due to injury not a heart attack


hmm i see



> He got heart attack due to injury from multiple marines in a 1v1 he’s perfectly clean and with no PIS he’s destroying everything including shanks


*one stab from squard

but anyway we're going off topic

Reactions: Agree 1


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## AnimePhanatic (May 18, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> That's clearly not the intention of the author as Whitebeard is also referred to as the strongest pirate. Pirate, creature and man are being used synonymously here. I also doubt Kaido would be excluded from the general usage of the term man. It just seems like a wild reach to me.
> 
> Do you think these two panels are inherently contradictory or not?
> 
> ...


Should we really take Buggy's statement as fact?
-Buggy says Whitebeard is the only man to fight Roger and lived
-Manga debunks that when Roger himself told Garp they nearly killed each other multiple times
-Manga shows us Roger fought Shiki and Shiki still lives
Buggy was speaking from his own experience, and that experience isn't something I'd bank on, considering he was camping on East Blue. And even if you wanna take Buggy's statement seriously, he obviously speaks about Primebeard.

Sengoku SAID Whiteboard was the WSM cause he THOUGHT Whitebeard was the WSM. He also attributed part of it to him having the power to destroy the world.
-Right after Sengoku says so, Squardo stabs Whitebeard, Marco says WB should have been able to dodge that... Implies that he's weaker
-Crocodile tells WB that the WB he remembers wasn't so weak. WB replies saying he can't be the strongest forever
-Entering the war, he gets rid of all the drips and stuff injected into his body. Says he doesn't want to be seen as a weak old man.
All implies that he in fact, doesn't see himself as the WS anymore

_______________________________

Now, compare it with Killer's statement
-Says Kaido is the WS
-Saw WB during the broadcast at Marineford
-Invaded Big Mom's Territory
-Saw Shanks' terror first hand
Basically, he'd experienced all the Emperors and still called Kaido the strongest. Of course, you could say it only applies cause WB was already dead, but that really doesn't mean much.
Why?
Cause WB got hype from matching Roger, not the other way round. And since sick Roger could match Primebeard, it's not all too unbelievable that Prime Roger > Primebeard.
Kaido also goes ahead to hype Roger as a different kinda beast, so it should be...
Prime Roger > Sick Roger = Primebeard => Kaido > whoever the next strongest Emperor is.

On topic, Kaido beats Oldbeard, WSM title or not, but might lose to Primebeard.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Eustathios (May 18, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Should we really take Buggy's statement as fact?
> -Buggy says Whitebeard is the only man to fight Roger and lived
> -Manga debunks that when Roger himself told Garp they nearly killed each other multiple times
> -Manga shows us Roger fought Shiki and Shiki still lives
> Buggy was speaking from his own experience, and that experience isn't something I'd bank on, considering he was camping on East Blue. And even if you wanna take Buggy's statement seriously, he obviously speaks about Primebeard.


The first part of your argument falls flat when you actually read what Buggy said. He didn't say the only man who fought him and lived. He said the only man to fight him to a standstill/tie


*Spoiler*: __ 










Buggy was a witness of the countless duels Whitebeard and Roger had. You conveniently left out the fact that before camping in East Blue, Buggy was sailing alongside Roger up to his last moments.



> Sengoku SAID Whiteboard was the WSM cause he THOUGHT Whitebeard was the WSM. He also attributed part of it to him having the power to destroy the world.
> -Right after Sengoku says so, Squardo stabs Whitebeard, Marco says WB should have been able to dodge that... Implies that he's weaker
> -Crocodile tells WB that the WB he remembers wasn't so weak. WB replies saying he can't be the strongest forever
> -Entering the war, he gets rid of all the drips and stuff injected into his body. Says he doesn't want to be seen as a weak old man.
> All implies that he in fact, doesn't see himself as the WS anymore


You got the order of events wrong. Squardo, under Sengoku's orders (meaning Sengoku thought he had a shot), stabs Whitebeard. Marco says if he were in his prime, not even an ally would be able to get a hit on him and Whitebeard mentions how he can't be the strongest forever and he's planning to die in Marineford. If anything, that just hypes prime Whitebeard for being able to evade even surprise attacks from his most trusted allies. 

After all that, when Whitebeard begins his charge, Sengoku announces that he the Strongest Man in the World and that the entire Marine forces should be wary of what they're about to face. Sengoku's opinion is actually very important and holds a lot of weight, because he's the man tasked with keeping the Yonkou in check by the World Government, and he keeps tabs on them. He also has information from CP organizations who we know have agents within Yonkou crew ranks.


> _______________________________
> 
> Now, compare it with Killer's statement
> -Says Kaido is the WS
> ...


It does mean a lot. First of all, the broadcast from Marineford was interrupted and manipulated several times. People didn't get the full picture of what went down.

Secondly, we don't even know when Roger got his disease, nor when it started to affect his fighting capability. We do know that Whitebeard and Roger fought countless times and that they tied. The author's intent is very obvious in establishing a relationship of parity between the two. If you want to overnanalyze things, than I could bring up the fact that Whitebeard never used his fruit in their clash.


> Prime Roger > Sick Roger = Primebeard => Kaido > whoever the next strongest Emperor is.


Yeah, no. "Prime Roger" is just fanfic.

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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> No it’s way higher then that. WB casual unnamed attacks are >= Kaidou’s strongest. Therefore his named attacks are probably x10-100x stronger then Kaidou’s which we have the support for in his World Ending power.


WB's attacks are 100x stronger than Kaido's? Lmao.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 18, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Now, compare it with Killer's statement
> -Says Kaido is the WS
> -Saw WB during the broadcast at Marineford
> -Invaded Big Mom's Territory
> -Saw Shanks' terror first hand


Killer didn't see Bigger Mom and probably didn't see a single named move from Shanks.


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> in fact Doffy would gladly prefer to fight WB than Kaido lol he crapped himself at the mention of his name.


This is a good point that gets overlooked. Doflamingo was literally smiling at the idea of going to war with WB and was goofing off and having a blast at marineford. As soon as Law mentioned that his plan was to piss off kaido so that he'd take his anger out on Doflamingo, his demeanor changed immediately.


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## A Optimistic (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> This is a good point that gets overlooked. Doflamingo was literally smiling at the idea of going to war with WB and was goofing off and having a blast at marineford. As soon as Law mentioned that his plan was to piss off kaido so that he'd take his anger out on Doflamingo, his demeanor changed immediately.





ShWanks said:


> in fact Doffy would gladly prefer to fight WB than Kaido lol he crapped himself at the mention of his name.



Apples and oranges.

Doflamingo had the Shichibukai and the full might of the marines fighting alongside him during the war against Whitebeard.

In a war against Kaido, Doflamingo doesn’t have powerful allies fighting alongside him.  He would be sweating hard if he heard Whitebeard was sailing to Dressrosa.

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## Turrin (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> WB's attacks are 100x stronger than Kaido's? Lmao.


10-100x seems fair considering WB DF has planetary destruction capability. But I guess you just want to ignore the range given because your in denial


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 10-100x seems fair considering WB DF has planetary destruction capability. But I guess you just want to ignore the range given because your in denial


There is nothing in the manga remotely suggesting WB is 100x stronger than the other yonko, you are talking out of your ass.


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Apples and oranges.
> 
> Doflamingo had the Shichibukai and the full might of the marines fighting alongside him during the war against Whitebeard.
> 
> In a war against Kaido, Doflamingo doesn’t have powerful allies fighting alongside him.  He would be sweating hard if he heard Whitebeard was sailing to Dressrosa.


If WB went to Dressrosa kaido would immediately send support so that's not a good example, unless you meant kaido wasn't his ally and it was just him then yeah he probably would be worried. 

I just didn't get the impression he was as scared of WB as he was of Kaido. Doffy didn't display paralyzing fear in front of Fujitora or Aokiji either.


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## God sl4yer (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> If WB went to Dressrosa kaido would immediately send support so that's not a good example, unless you meant kaido wasn't his ally and it was just him then yeah he probably would be worried.


Bad example, Kaido would come straight for doflamingo but WB was supposed to fight the entire WG mainly admirals and not only doflamingo, how are you even using this as an example? lol, ofcourse he will be more afraid of kaido since he was going to come straight for his head, if WB was coming to kill doffy in dressrosa he would be more scared of him.


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> Bad example, Kaido would come straight for doflamingo but WB was supposed to fight the entire WG mainly admirals and not only doflamingo, how are you even using this as an example? lol, ofcourse he will be more afraid of kaido since he was going to come straight for his head, if WB was coming to kill doffy in dressrosa he would be more scared of him.


I addressed everything you wrote in the post you quoted.


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## God sl4yer (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> I addressed everything you wrote in the post you quoted.


WB was considered to be the strongest pirate alive at that time and people in the verse truly believed that, whether he was or he was not is another matter. What you are implying is that doffy knew WB was having heart attacks and wasn't the strongest anymore, which isn't possible.


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 18, 2022)

No polls?


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## trance (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> was just him then yeah he probably would be worried.


this is what ava meant

if doffy were to incur WB's wrath and didn't have the navy to hide behind, i have no doubt he'd be sweating and panicking

then again, reactions aren't the be all end all either so who knows


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

trance said:


> this is what ava meant
> 
> if doffy were to incur WB's wrath and didn't have the navy to hide behind, i have no doubt he'd be sweating and panicking
> 
> then again, reactions aren't the be all end all either so who knows


I'm not even sure about that because Doffy acted awfully confident and bold around Fujitora and Aokiji in two separate instances (grinning around them). He didn't have the navy backing him in those encounters, he was completely alone.


Literally the only time Doflamingo looked terrified was when kaido was mentioned.


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## trance (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> I'm not even sure about that because Doffy acted awfully confident and bold around Fujitora and Aokiji in two separate instances (grinning around them). He didn't have the navy backing him in those encounters, he was completely alone.


that's because yonko > admirals


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> WB was considered to be the strongest pirate alive at that time and people in the verse truly believed that, whether he was or he was not is another matter. What you are implying is that doffy knew WB was having heart attacks and wasn't the strongest anymore, which isn't possible.


I am not about to get dragged into another tedious wsc vs wsm debate. There's tons and tons of evidence either way and you can easily support the argument kaido was stronger while WB was alive. Especially the dying sick WB of marineford, I don't see how that can even be debated when Marco and Crocodile and WB himself admitted he was growing rapidly weaker.

Even if for the sake of argument WB was somehow stronger, Kaido is definitely faster, more durable, has better stamina, and way better haki than marineford WB. Raw strength isn't the end all be all in vs discussions. Kaido's scales and haki would reduce the damage from the earthquake attacks but no one ever talks about that. Or the fact Kaido has future sight and could easily dodge many of WBs attacks. WB would need to end the fight very quickly or he's going to be in a very long and painful brawl running out of energy very quickly before being killed.


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

trance said:


> that's because yonko > admirals


Sure if you want to ignore the facts

-Akainu nearly killed WB
-Akainu took 2 blood lusted hits and survived
-Akainu>/=Aokiji

Yet Doffy showed no fear at all around Aokiji and Fujitora and even clashed with them by himself with no navy or schichibukai or crew to help him.


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## God sl4yer (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> I am not about to get dragged into another tedious wsc vs wsm debate. There's tons and tons of evidence either way and you can easily support the argument kaido was stronger while WB was alive. Especially the dying sick WB of marineford, I don't see how that can even be debated when Marco and Crocodile and WB himself admitted he was growing rapidly weaker.
> 
> Even if for the sake of argument WB was somehow stronger, Kaido is definitely faster, more durable, has better stamina, and way better haki than marineford WB. Raw strength isn't the end all be all in vs discussions. Kaido's scales and haki would reduce the damage from the earthquake attacks but no one ever talks about that. Or the fact Kaido has future sight and could easily dodge many of WBs attacks. WB would need to end the fight very quickly or he's going to be in a very long and painful brawl running out of energy very quickly before being killed.


You didn't read my post carefully. What i said was that WB was considered to be the WSM (not that he was) , so doffy considered him as the strongest aswell even if he wasn't anymore. So from his perspective he should be scared from WB more than kaido.


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## Seraphoenix (May 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> The words are italic because they are Shank’s thoughts. It’s Shanks he’s talking to before and Shanks he’s talking to after. Therefore these are Shanks thoughts. Yeah I guess reading comprehension is tough but don’t worry we will get you through it


You're a meme at this point. Legit laughable that you can't understand something so basic.


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> You didn't read my post carefully. What i said was that WB was considered to be the WSM (not that he was) , so doffy considered him as the strongest aswell even if he wasn't anymore. So from his perspective he should be scared from WB more than kaido.


WB isn't as cruel or as ruthless as Kaido. One of the main reasons WB had his wsm title was for his devil fruit ability to destroy the world. This is mentioned in the manga by Sengoku as well as the vivre cards. Doffy knew WB wouldn't destroy the world when his goal was to save Ace.

The facts are that he simply didn't quake in fear facing off against WB, or Fujitora, or Aokiji, or any top tier besides Kaido. The fear surrounding Kaido is primarily due to his terrifying reputation in 1v1 scenarios.


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## GreenEggsAHam (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> I'm not even sure about that because Doffy acted awfully confident and bold around Fujitora and Aokiji in two separate instances (grinning around them). He didn't have the navy backing him in those encounters, he was completely alone.
> 
> 
> Literally the only time Doflamingo looked terrified was when kaido was mentioned.


Kinemon looked terrified when he heard about an admiral being in dressora Compared to him being fearless with kaido  

Therefore we can conclude, admirals>kaido

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## God sl4yer (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> WB isn't as cruel or as ruthless as Kaido. One of the main reasons WB had his wsm title was for his devil fruit ability to destroy the world. This is mentioned in the manga by Sengoku as well as the vivre cards. Doffy knew WB wouldn't destroy the world when his goal was to save Ace.
> 
> The facts are that he simply didn't quake in fear facing off against WB, or Fujitora, or Aokiji, or any top tier besides Kaido. The fear surrounding Kaido is primarily due to his terrifying reputation in 1v1 scenarios.


Bro too much headcanon and assumptions, let's just stick to what oda planned and information he provided us with of WB's status as the WSM and WSP.

btw none of the shichibukai at MF war were afraid of WB, does that mean WB was not WSP?


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> Bro too much headcanon and assumptions, let's just stick to what oda planned and information he provided us with of WB's status as the WSM and WSP.
> 
> btw none of the shichibukai at MF war were afraid of WB, does that mean WB was not WSP?


They aren't assumptions. Its a fact WBs title was partly due to his fruits ability to destroy the world and Doflamingo knew he'd never actually do that.

I already told you I'm not interested in a wsm vs wsc debate that's been done to death. What we do know is this:

-WB, when he appeared in Marineford, _clearly_ wasn't the most powerful person on the planet. Marco commented on how he struggled to use haki and Crocodile called him "weak". Therefore it's ludicrous for anyone to claim _that_ version of WB was definitely stronger than Kaido.

-In addition to struggling to use haki, WBs reflexes and overall speed were diminished to the point where Squard could land a hit. Kaido kept up with various fast opponents like Luffy and even showed future sight. Therefore, Kaido is definitely faster.

-Kaido is clearly more durable. Not up for debate.

-Kaido has better stamina. He has been fighting for 50+ chapters. WB had heart attacks when he fought and needed to be hooked up to machines even while sitting down.

None of these are head cannon assumptions, just facts straight from the manga. Prime WB is anyone's guess, but it's quite obvious Kaido is the deadlier opponent 1v1 and would have *multiple* advantages in this matchup including speed, stamina, durability, haki, and range. Even if for the sake of argument Marineford WB was stronger, that would not be enough to win this matchup given all the other stats.


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## God sl4yer (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> They aren't assumptions. Its a fact WBs title was partly due to his fruits ability to destroy the world and Doflamingo knew he'd never actually do that.
> 
> I already told you I'm not interested in a wsm vs wsc debate that's been done to death. What we do know is this:
> 
> ...


Yes WB's DF can destroy the world and that's where some of his hype came from but it's not like gura can only be used to destroy the worlds and there's nothing else it could do lol, his gura's powers just 2 shot the strongest admiral in a fucked up condition, and healthy Oldbeard could use advCoC and full haki even in sleep so he isn't known as the WSM for his world destruction ability only.

Brooo when did i even compare WB with kaido? All i am saying is that he was considered to be the strongest man and pirate by in verse characters. I never even argued that MF WB was stronger than kaido.


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## Tsukuyomi (May 18, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Kinemon looked terrified when he heard about an admiral being in dressora Compared to him being fearless with kaido
> 
> Therefore we can conclude, admirals>kaido


Hammy has spoken.


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> Yes WB's DF can destroy the world and that's where some of his hype came from but it's not like gura can only be used to destroy the worlds and there's nothing else it could do lol, his gura's powers just 2 shot the strongest admiral in a fucked up condition, and healthy Oldbeard could use advCoC and full haki even in sleep so he isn't known as the WSM for his world destruction ability only.
> 
> Brooo when did i even compare WB with kaido? All i am saying is that he was considered to be the strongest man and pirate by in verse characters. I never even argued that MF WB was stronger than kaido.


Show me where I said the gura fruits only ability is destroying the world? My point was that Doffys lack of fear might have been due to knowing WB wouldn't do that. 

WBs purely physical quake attacks wouldn't be as effective on Kaido due to his dragon scales and insane durability/haki. The one who fought in Marineford in particular is going to be in serious trouble due to the speed, durability, and stamina difference between Kaido and old WB even if WB hits harder. The thread is about WB vs Kaido I wasn't saying you directly compared them


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## Turrin (May 18, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> You're a meme at this point. Legit laughable that you can't understand something so basic.


Concession accepted, that you had no argument and are arguing against what was clearly shown in the text


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## Turrin (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> There is nothing in the manga remotely suggesting WB is 100x stronger than the other yonko, you are talking out of your ass.


Except Sengoku saying WB AP is a threat to the entire planet.


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## God sl4yer (May 18, 2022)

That


Turrin said:


> Except Sengoku saying WB AP is a threat to the entire planet.


Thats not his AP, he can't punch someone with world destroying AP.


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## Turrin (May 18, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> That
> 
> Thats not his AP, he can't punch someone with world destroying AP.


Proof, because based on what Sengoku says he can.


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## YellowCosmos (May 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Except Sengoku saying WB AP is a threat to the entire planet.



Evidence that wasn't hyperbole?


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## Turrin (May 18, 2022)

YellowCosmos said:


> Evidence that wasn't hyperbole?


Sengoku is not prone to making Hyberbolic statements and this is something repeated in other sources as well. So we have no reason to assume it’s hyerbolic.


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Except Sengoku saying WB AP is a threat to the entire planet.


Yeah, I know. But there is nothing in the manga indicating WB is 100x stronger than the other yonko. That's your head cannon number you pulled from thin air. All of the yonko are in a stalemate and relatively close to each other in overall power.

We don't know _how_ WB would use his fruit to destroy the world. It could be a chain reaction due to his ability to create earthquakes. It doesn't mean he was hitting Akainu or Blackbeard with planet busting attacks.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## God sl4yer (May 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Proof, because based on what Sengoku says he can.


Proof you say? 
In MF the strongest attack he used was heaven and earth, that wasn't AP, all it did was tilt the seas and weaken the foundation of MF. He can't put all this power into his punch, it's a different ability.

btw I don't think he can destroy the world in a single attack, he has the potential to destroy the world but  not in sigle attack.


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## God sl4yer (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Yeah, I know. But there is nothing in the manga indicating WB is 100x stronger than the other yonko. That's your head cannon number you pulled from thin air. All of the yonko are in a stalemate and relatively close to each other in overall power.
> 
> We don't know _how_ WB would use his fruit to destroy the world. It could be a chain reaction due to his ability to create earthquakes. It doesn't mean he was hitting Akainu or Blackbeard with planet busting attacks.


This.


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## Turrin (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Yeah, I know. But there is nothing in the manga indicating WB is 100x stronger than the other yonko. That's your head cannon number you pulled from thin air. All of the yonko are in a stalemate and relatively close to each other in overall power.
> 
> We don't know _how_ WB would use his fruit to destroy the world. It could be a chain reaction due to his ability to create earthquakes. It doesn't mean he was hitting Akainu or Blackbeard with planet busting attacks.A


Actually I gave a range and your just refusing to acknowledge that. The reason a range exist is because we don’t know the exact number, but world destruction is for sure massively more then x2 Flaming Drum Dragon; as even Barjang Gun which was stronger then Flaming Drum Dragon significantly came nowhere close to destroying the world.
—-
What chain reaction could WB set off that wouldn’t require insanely greater AP then Flaming Drum Dragon. Explain it to me


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## Turrin (May 18, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> Proof you say?
> In MF the strongest attack he used was heaven and earth, that wasn't AP, all it did was tilt the seas and weaken the foundation of MF. He can't put all this power into his punch, it's a different ability.
> 
> btw I don't think he can destroy the world in a single attack, he has the potential to destroy the world but  not in sigle attack.


Proof heaven and sea is the strongest attack he is capable of or that’s not proof at all

Even if not in a single attack the ability to destroy the world at all requires an AP far beyond what Luffy and Kaidou displayed even at their peak.


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## God sl4yer (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> WBs purely physical quake attacks wouldn't be as effective on Kaido due to his dragon scales and insane durability/haki.


2 of Sick WB's quake attacks were enough to put down an admiral, how is this not enough to high damage kaido? I agree that he blocks some of its impact but quack attacks mostly bypass durability and attacks your insides, it's mostly based on internal destruction so it would still fairly injure kaido, btw this is healthy WB who had top tier CoO and was still able to use CoC and split the sky, so he doesn't need gura to injure kaido as he can can cut him using his sky splitting CoA and CoC. 

imo healthy WB vs kaido goes either way or WB takes it extreme diff.


MrAnalogies said:


> The one who fought in Marineford in particular is going to be in serious trouble due to the speed, durability, and stamina difference between Kaido and old WB even if WB hits harder. The thread is about WB vs Kaido I wasn't saying you directly compared them


I agree that MF WB loses, but it won't be an easy fight for kaido, bloodlusted WB was fast enough to get behind akainu without him realizing on the battlefield, i know he was off guard but this speed feat still is very good as know one was able to warn akainu before WB got behind him and hit him. WB's DF powers were strong enough to 2 shot akainu, so his AP was still fairly top tier. His monster like endurance makes up for his bad durability. 

btw this is healthy WB who was still able to use CoC and split the sky, so it shows that he can even cut kaido using his bisento. Anyone with sky splitting haki can injure kaido.


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## YellowCosmos (May 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Sengoku is not prone to making Hyberbolic statements and this is something repeated in other sources as well. So we have no reason to assume it’s hyerbolic.



I personally tend to disregard non-manga and non-SBS sources, since I don't know how they're written, where the authors get their information from and what is subject to correction by Oda and what isn't. Example, how do we know the author of that spinoff didn't regurgitate what Sengoku said about the DF without thinking about it or checking it properly? If you want to count it as part of your evidence, go ahead, but I won't.

Sengoku not being prone to making hyperbolic statements doesn't mean this isn't one of the instances in which he does.
You have a reason to assume it's hyperbolic, which is that the world hasn't (as far as we know) been destroyed or severely damaged. To know that the Gura Gura no Mi, or Whitebeard specifically, has that degree of power, it should have been exercised at some point in that way (or close to that way), no?

You can also take into account the fact that no DFs have ever been seen functioning on a scale which threatens the entire planet, and our list of knowns DFs includes some exceptionally powerful DFs.


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Actually I gave a range and your just refusing to acknowledge that. The reason a range exist is because we don’t know the exact number, but world destruction is for sure massively more then x2 Flaming Drum Dragon; as even Barjang Gun which was stronger then Flaming Drum Dragon significantly came nowhere close to destroying the world.
> —-
> What chain reaction could WB set off that wouldn’t require insanely greater AP then Flaming Drum Dragon. Explain it to me


Bloodlusted WB when he attacked Teach and Akainu was probably the angriest Character in the entire series. He put everything into his attacks against them. According to your logic, Teach and Akainu have planet level durability. And that obviously isn't remotely true as both have been hurt by attacks way below planet level.

We also know for a fact the yonko stale mate each other and keep each other in check. That's why they avoid going to war with each other because as soon as they engage in battle, the winner would be vulnerable for the other two. This was thoroughly explained in the Ace novel. The manga also makes it very clear that the yonko are all close in overall power and fighting ability when shanks clashed with WB, Kaido clashed with BM, etc. If WB was 100x stronger than his peers he could simply invade their territories and slaughter them with ease. It would also suggest Shanks has planet level strength in his arm which is also ridiculous. They all split the sky when clashing with each other which shows what yonko level fighters can do.

We don't know _how_ WB would destroy the planet. Therefore we can't assume he can channel that sort of power into his standard attacks in a 1v1 setting.


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> 2 of Sick WB's quake attacks were enough to put down an admiral, how is this not enough to high damage kaido? I agree that he blocks some of its impact but quack attacks mostly bypass durability and attacks your insides, it's mostly based on internal destruction so it would still fairly injure kaido, btw this is healthy WB who had top tier CoO and was still able to use CoC and split the sky, so he doesn't need gura to injure kaido as he can can cut him using his sky splitting CoA and CoC.


I didn't say he couldn't hurt Kaido. I said it would be harder to hurt him than any other character except Luffy because Luffy and Kaido are very resistant to physical damage. By no means am I suggesting this would be easy for Kaido. 

Kaido survived plenty of internal damage from killer and law and took advanced conqueror's slashes from Zoro, stand from the scabbards, etc and continued fighting without any breaks for another 20+ chapters without bleeding out. WB would need to land _many_ slashes to keep Kaido down, just saying. 



God sl4yer said:


> imo healthy WB vs kaido goes either way or WB takes it extreme diff.


I still think Kaido is faster and he's definitely got an edge in durability and stamina even over healthy WB, although not as big of a gap as the Marineford version. WB is tough as hell, but still human and would be at a disadvantage in a long brawl with a scaly tank like Kaido. I think the best strategy for WB would be to go all out from the beginning and don't give Kaido even a split second to rest damaging him with quakes and armament slashes repeatedly. The longer it goes on the worse it gets for WB. 

I can at least respect your reasonable take, and there are some arguments you can make to support WB beating him high dif. Some people think this would be an easy win for WB which is hilarious. 




God sl4yer said:


> I agree that MF WB loses, but it won't be an easy fight for kaido, bloodlusted WB was fast enough to get behind akainu without him realizing on the battlefield, i know he was off guard but this speed feat still is very good as know one was able to warn akainu before WB got behind him and hit him. WB's DF powers were strong enough to 2 shot akainu, so his AP was still fairly top tier. His monster like endurance makes up for his bad durability.


Well to be fair to Akainu he was in the middle of a war and like you said, he was off guard. I'm not saying WB is slow, but we know for a fact Kaido literally didn't bother dodging or blocking anything for dozens of chapters until he was drunk and randomly decided to use future sight out of nowhere. His thunder bagua is also insanely fast and even Luffy couldn't dodge it after mastering future sight and it took him a while to eventually be able to evade it on the rooftop. 

Bloodlusted Kaido would have a distinct speed advantage even against healthy WB. In character Kaido might fuck around and end up losing, but then again, Kaido lives to face worthy opponents and I doubt he'd be getting drunk or messing around if he knew WB was challenging him.


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## Turrin (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Bloodlusted WB when he attacked Teach and Akainu was probably the angriest Character in the entire series. He put everything into his attacks against them. According to your logic, Teach and Akainu have planet level durability. And that obviously isn't remotely true as both have been hurt by attacks way below planet level.
> 
> We also know for a fact the yonko stale mate each other and keep each other in check. That's why they avoid going to war with each other because as soon as they engage in battle, the winner would be vulnerable for the other two. This was thoroughly explained in the Ace novel. The manga also makes it very clear that the yonko are all close in overall power and fighting ability when shanks clashed with WB, Kaido clashed with BM, etc. If WB was 100x stronger than his peers he could simply invade their territories and slaughter them with ease. It would also suggest Shanks has planet level strength in his arm which is also ridiculous. They all split the sky when clashing with each other which shows what yonko level fighters can do.
> 
> We don't know _how_ WB would destroy the planet. Therefore we can't assume he can channel that sort of power into his standard attacks in a 1v1 setting.


1) WB was angry but he also was on a mission there to uphold Ace’s will and save Luffy and save as much of the WB Pirates as possible. So no matter how angry he is, he’s not going to release an attack that could endanger Luffy or the WB Pirates. So we know WB had good reason to hold back and we also know he was far from Top Condition by the time of those events. So it just seems dishonest to try to ignore 3 Clear statements from 3 different sources on his AP, simply because he didn’t decide in his worse condition ever to board wipe at the cost of his entire family and Luffy. Try to be reasonable with your arguments bruv

2) Dude I and others have explained this to you before. War isn’t a 1v1. Yonko don’t got to war with each other specifically because it’s not a 1v1; and they would have a loss of men in a war setting that they wouldn’t in a 1v1. This is what’s explained in both the Manga and Ace Novel. Nowhere does it say they don’t fight because 1v1 it would be a close or equal battle.  I repeat, No source ever says this in any material ever. This is also why zero fucks were given by Kaidou about fighting BM 1v1.

3) If WB invaded Wano he would end up fighting not just Kaidou but 20K Beast Pirates. So he would need to bring his men; and that would mean his family potentially dying in the war. So it just doesn’t work that way. It’s not like there was 1v1 opportunity for the Yonko to fight each other. 

4) If you can’t give an example of how he can destroy the world without having massively better AP then Kaidou, your view is just wrong. You can’t hide behind we don’t know how, when every way he possibly could required much higher AP then Kaidou.


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## Canute87 (May 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Proof, because based on what Sengoku says he can.


Destroying the world through earthquakes and tsunamis.  

Whitebeard is no Saitama.


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## God sl4yer (May 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Actually I gave a range and your just refusing to acknowledge that. The reason a range exist is because we don’t know the exact number, but world destruction is for sure massively more then x2 Flaming Drum Dragon; as even Barjang Gun which was stronger then Flaming Drum Dragon significantly came nowhere close to destroying the world.


No offense but this is one of the worst takes i have ever seen yet.
I will explain why;

-Dressros luffy's kig kong gun did more destruction than WB's strongest quack punch which put down akainu, so does that mean WB's punch was weaker than luffy's king kong gun? lol.

- Barjang gun was coated with advCoC so what it did was mostly internal damage, so stop using this attack scale bullshit. 

- akainu's DF is stated to possess the highest lethality in the verse but it's scale is much smaller than WB's DF so does that mean WB's DF is more lethal?


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) WB was angry but he also was on a mission there to uphold Ace’s will and save Luffy and save as much of the WB Pirates as possible. So no matter how angry he is, he’s not going to release an attack that could endanger Luffy or the WB Pirates. So we know WB had good reason to hold back and we also know he was far from Top Condition by the time of those events. So it just seems dishonest to try to ignore 3 Clear statements from 3 different sources on his AP, simply because he didn’t decide in his worse condition ever to board wipe at the cost of his entire family and Luffy. Try to be reasonable with your arguments bruv
> 
> 2) Dude I and others have explained this to you before. War isn’t a 1v1. Yonko don’t got to war with each other specifically because it’s not a 1v1; and they would have a loss of men in a war setting that they wouldn’t in a 1v1. This is what’s explained in both the Manga and Ace Novel. Nowhere does it say they don’t fight because 1v1 it would be a close or equal battle.  I repeat, No source ever says this in any material ever. This is also why zero fucks were given by Kaidou about fighting BM 1v1.
> 
> ...


1) I am not denying that WB might be able to end the world. What I'm disputing is your claim that WB can use that power for his regular AP. If he didn't put literal world ending power into his attacks against Teach or Akainu he isn't doing it against anyone. He would endanger everyone no matter where he is on the planet or who was around him so his allies being present at marineford is irrelevant. If he could actually dishes out planet level destruction in his attacks but never does so even when blood lusted, then wtf does it matter in a matchup? It's like me saying I can last 6 hours in bed but I refuse to approach any woman, who cares?

2) the yonko are all around the same level, sky splitters. You have zero evidence WB is anywhere near 10x stronger, let alone 100x stronger for his standard AP. Unless you think Shanks can bench press a planet with one arm and Teach/Akainu have planet level durability. 

3) Kaido told King the one who can beat him is Joyboy and Whitebeard was still alive when he said this. Luffy certainly didn't show planet level AP, therefore WB obviously cannot dish out planet level AP with his normal attacks...unless you think Kaido also has planet+ durability. 

4) I don't need to "hide" behind anything. Bloodlusted WB didn't destroy the world at marineford. We don't know how the world ending thing even works. You do realize you can "end the world" if you create powerful enough earthquakes you could fuck up the Earth's tectonic plates to the point where they're inhospitable or cause tsunamis powerful enough to wipe out all biological life forms. The manga never explains how so it's not on me to explain how. WB doesn't literally have planet ending power in his fists unless you're ready to die on the hill that the top tiers all have planet level stats or you want to claim a blood lusted WB was holding back.


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## God sl4yer (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> 1) I am not denying that WB might be able to end the world. What I'm disputing is your claim that WB can use that power for his regular AP. If he didn't put literal world ending power into his attacks against Teach or Akainu he isn't doing it against anyone. He would endanger everyone no matter where he is on the planet or who was around him so his allies being present at marineford is irrelevant. If he could actually dishes out planet level destruction in his attacks but never does so even when blood lusted, then wtf does it matter in a matchup? It's like me saying I can last 6 hours in bed but I refuse to approach any woman, who cares?
> 
> 2) the yonko are all around the same level, sky splitters. You have zero evidence WB is anywhere near 10x stronger, let alone 100x stronger for his standard AP. Unless you think Shanks can bench press a planet with one arm and Teach/Akainu have planet level durability.
> 
> ...


It's pointless, don't argue with him, he's high as fuck right now.

WB is saitama of one piece who is 100x stronger than other yonko and can end the world in one punch, lmao holy shit bro.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## God sl4yer (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> I didn't say he couldn't hurt Kaido. I said it would be harder to hurt him than any other character except Luffy because Luffy and Kaido are very resistant to physical damage. By no means am I suggesting this would be easy for Kaido.
> 
> Kaido survived plenty of internal damage from killer and law and took advanced conqueror's slashes from Zoro, stand from the scabbards, etc and continued fighting without any breaks for another 20+ chapters without bleeding out. WB would need to land _many_ slashes to keep Kaido down, just saying.


Well it wouldn't be easy for WB to put him down, but if an injured sick WB had enough AP to put down akainu, then with advCoC + better health and condition he definitely can put down kaido after an extreme diff fight.
MF WB's only way to damage kaido is through his quake punches so thats why he loses but in healthy condition he can injure him using his CoA, quake punches and advCoC and has much better stamina to keep these attacks going.


MrAnalogies said:


> I still think Kaido is faster and he's definitely got an edge in durability and stamina even over healthy WB, although not as big of a gap as the Marineford version. WB is tough as hell, but still human and would be at a disadvantage in a long brawl with a scaly tank like Kaido. I think the best strategy for WB would be to go all out from the beginning and don't give Kaido even a split second to rest damaging him with quakes and armament slashes repeatedly. The longer it goes on the worse it gets for WB.


MF WB was much slower than kaido but i think healthy WB who was one shoting ace in sleep using basic CoO is equal to kaido speed wise, now imagine WB using FS on top of his top tier basic CoO. He is definitely on the same level as kaido speed wise. 

Physical strength: kaido
Durability: kaido
Stamina : kaido
Speed : equal 
AP : WB
Endurance : WB

that's how i see it.


MrAnalogies said:


> Bloodlusted Kaido would have a distinct speed advantage even against healthy WB. In character Kaido might fuck around and end up losing, but then again, Kaido lives to face worthy opponents and I doubt he'd be getting drunk or messing around if he knew WB was challenging him.


Agreed that kaido will go all out from the start and will use FS and hybrid + advCoC but same goes for WB he will also use FS + quack punches and advCoC aswell, where i can see WB putting down kaido after an extreme diff fight and then losing his life after some days due to the injuries he got from kaido.


Good points though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> Well it wouldn't be easy for WB to put him down, but if an injured sick WB had enough AP to put down akainu, then with advCoC + better health and condition he definitely can put down kaido after an extreme diff fight.
> MF WB's only way to damage kaido is through his quake punches so thats why he loses but in healthy condition he can injure him using his CoA, quake punches and advCoC and has much better stamina to keep these attacks going.


Kaido is significantly more durable than Akainu tho. He's easily the most durable in the whole show, especially if he gets back up from Luffy's absurd gear 5 mega punch. I do agree healthy WB going all out can severely damage Kaido, no doubt, but he'd have to go all out immediately without letting up. 




God sl4yer said:


> MF WB was much slower than kaido but i think healthy WB who was one shoting ace in sleep using basic CoO is equal to kaido speed wise, now imagine WB using FS on top of his top tier basic CoO. He is definitely on the same level as kaido speed wise.
> 
> Physical strength: kaido
> Durability: kaido
> ...


Uh Ace isn't as fast as current Luffy who kaido was blitzing despite future sight. Especially not the younger rookie version of Ace who probably wasn't even commander level, come on. I don't see how you can claim WB is equal to Kaido in speed based on that borderline gag scene.

Agree with the rest. 



God sl4yer said:


> Agreed that kaido will go all out from the start and will use FS and hybrid + advCoC but same goes for WB he will also use FS + quack punches and advCoC aswell, where i can see WB putting down kaido after an extreme diff fight and then losing his life after some days due to the injuries he got from kaido.


It's kind of a toss up if both are blood lusted, healthy, and using their most brutal attacks immediately (although I slightly favor Kaido). But WB cannot afford to make a single mistake or lose focus for even a second because Kaido's durability and recovery are off the charts. That's why I say the longer it goes on the worse it is for WB.


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## Turrin (May 18, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> No offense but this is one of the worst takes i have ever seen yet.
> I will explain why;
> 
> -Dressros luffy's kig kong gun did more destruction than WB's strongest quack punch which put down akainu, so does that mean WB's punch was weaker than luffy's king kong gun? lol.
> ...


It didn’t do more destruction at all. WB quakes effected the entire ocean. Idk what your talking about.

And no the damage wasn’t internal as Luffy was just using the barrier version of Haki not internal damage.


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## Turrin (May 18, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> Destroying the world through earthquakes and tsunamis.
> 
> Whitebeard is no Saitama.


Which still requires far greater AP then Kaidou showed


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## trance (May 18, 2022)

i'm not sure if turrin knows the difference between AoE potency and damage potency  



MrAnalogies said:


> Sure if you want to ignore the facts
> 
> -Akainu nearly killed WB
> -Akainu took 2 blood lusted hits and survived
> ...


what facts? that was a heavily weakened and almost dead WB

everything points towards admirals being weaker than the yonko

their feats, portrayal and hype are all less impressive

obviously they're still incredibly powerful but there are levels to this


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## Turrin (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> 1) I am not denying that WB might be able to end the world. What I'm disputing is your claim that WB can use that power for his regular AP. If he didn't put literal world ending power into his attacks against Teach or Akainu he isn't doing it against anyone. He would endanger everyone no matter where he is on the planet or who was around him so his allies being present at marineford is irrelevant. If he could actually dishes out planet level destruction in his attacks but never does so even when blood lusted, then wtf does it matter in a matchup? It's like me saying I can last 6 hours in bed but I refuse to approach any woman, who cares?
> 
> 2) the yonko are all around the same level, sky splitters. You have zero evidence WB is anywhere near 10x stronger, let alone 100x stronger for his standard AP. Unless you think Shanks can bench press a planet with one arm and Teach/Akainu have planet level durability.
> 
> ...


1) WB can simply position the attack so that it would not hit the planet dead on. This is what characters do all the time in DBZ, for example. The fact that he couldn’t do this against Akainu or Teach when he was seconds from death, is not a good reason to ignore him having this AP, which obviously would heavily benefit him in many scenario’s where he can position his attack properly.

2) Luffy split the sky when he first got ACoC. He then went on to up his AP greatly with G2/3, G4, G5, and Finally his Giant G5 Barjang Gun fist, which Kaidou was able to match to a certain extent. It is therefore very clear that Kaidou AP is way above just Skysplitting levels. And this is not some soft cap for Yonko by any means at all.

3) Clearly Joy Boy is just one of the figures that can beat Kaidou; as he already suffered 7 Losses and none of them were Joy Boy. Oden also could have beaten him 1v1. So what Kaidou simply means is Joy Boy is one of the figures that will appear that can beat him, not the only one.

4) Creating powerful enough quakes that could mess with the tectonic plates is still way above the AP that Kaidou showed. So yeah, you need to explain how WB could end the world and it not make his AP above Kaidou. This is a Shonen Battle Manga, the answer here is obvious and your just ignoring it because you can’t handle WB AP being way above Kaidou’s

Yet I doubt greatly you would have any problem with someone saying Kaidou’s durability is x10 WB’s


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

trance said:


> what facts? that was a heavily weakened and almost dead WB
> 
> everything points towards admirals being weaker than the yonko
> 
> ...


I agree yonko are superior to admirals but not by a _huge_ margin. Aokiji also hung with WB in their clash. Commanders like Marco, Queen, Zoro, and Killer even managed to hold their own with BM and Kaido.

The context of our conversation was about how Doffy didn't show fear around Aokiji who was equal to another admiral who held his own with WB in a gruesome fight. Granted WB wasn't at his best but it does say something. Fujitora is obviously no slouch either and Chinjao suggested admirals in general can hold their own with yonko yet Doffy didn't fear Fujitora and even goaded him and clashed with him.

Doffy was called to go to war with WB knowing he might end up having to fight WB and this was his reaction:



Dofy didn't say "fuck that, I quit", he didn't get mad and scream or throw things across the room, he smiled while lounging in a chair in excitement and showed up to the battle smirking.

All of Doffys snickering and grinning shit stopped just at the mere mentioning of Kaido's name. Take that how you will.


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## MrAnalogies (May 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) WB can simply position the attack so that it would not hit the planet dead on. This is what characters do all the time in DBZ, for example. The fact that he couldn’t do this against Akainu or Teach when he was seconds from death, is not a good reason to ignore him having this AP, which obviously would heavily benefit him in many scenario’s where he can position his attack properly.
> 
> 2) Luffy split the sky when he first got ACoC. He then went on to up his AP greatly with G2/3, G4, G5, and Finally his Giant G5 Barjang Gun fist, which Kaidou was able to match to a certain extent. It is therefore very clear that Kaidou AP is way above just Skysplitting levels. And this is not some soft cap for Yonko by any means at all.
> 
> ...


1) For the love of God Turrin stop using other anime to support your arguments. This isn't DBZ. There is no evidence WB can use planet level attacks in combat. If he didn't do it against teach and Akainu he _isn't_ doing it in any other battle unless you think Roger, teach, and Akainu are planet level. *The only way it would ever happen is if WB gave no fucks about the planet so it doesn't matter*!

2) sky splitter=yonko level. That's all I was saying. I am not saying there is no level of destruction above sky level, my point was that oda uses sky splitting to indicate yonko level and uses that to show that all yonko are roughly in the same tier of power. You have NO evidence WB is 10x stronger than the other yonko.

3) we just found out kaido got captured on purpose so who knows what really happened with those losses. The fact kaido made a big deal about joyboy being the one to beat him while WB was alive is the whole freaking reason he went to wano because he expected that to be the guy to give him his best fight. Kaido wants a glorious 1v1 fight, that's literally his main objective for the last 200+ chapters.

4) we don't know _how_ he would do it. He can create a chain reaction that messes up the environment. I don't really have to explain shit I was just entertaining you, take it or leave it. I actually studied physics, geography, and astronomy, I could literally write an entire 50 page essay explaining how you could destroy the planet without it being a reflection on your combat attack power. Go back to point #1 because that's what's most important. WB *can't* actually use planet level attacks in a combat scenario without destroying the planet, it really doesn't matter that he has the capability unless you turn off morals and common sense for this battle.


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## trance (May 18, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> I agree yonko are superior to admirals but not by a _huge_ margin. Aokiji also hung with WB in their clash. Commanders like Marco, Queen, Zoro, and Killer even managed to hold their own with BM and Kaido.
> 
> The context of our conversation was about how Doffy didn't show fear around Aokiji who was equal to another admiral who held his own with WB in a gruesome fight. Granted WB wasn't at his best but it does say something. Fujitora is obviously no slouch either and Chinjao suggested admirals in general can hold their own with yonko yet Doffy didn't fear Fujitora and even goaded him and clashed with him.
> 
> ...


look man, i said at the start of this thread that kaido wins here

my only issue was using doffy's reaction towards WB and kaido when they're still not comparable situations no matter which way you slice it 

if you want to continue this, then you're free to PM me

otherwise we're on the same side debating over something that's barely relevant imo

Reactions: Agree 1 | Neutral 1


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## God sl4yer (May 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Which still requires far greater AP then Kaidou showed


Bruh...
there's a difference between haki damage and DF damage. Haki damage is mostly related with internal damage and all the power of your will (advCoC) is used to internally damage someone, on the other hand what DF's does is a different type of damage, some do internal damage, some inviromental damage etc etc there's a difference.

1) akainu DF does more damage than WB's gura and is more lethal, but we saw that WB's DF had much bigger scale, does that mean akainu's fruit isn't the most lethal fruit there is?

2) DF's have different powers and abilities as I explained, and WB's power in particular was able to cause tsunamis and earth quakes, this doesn't mean he can coat his punch this world destroying power, that's not how devil fruit powers works.

3) We know that with strong haki you can overcome DF's powers, this was stated many times even by kaido, there's no reason to believe that WB's DF is something else which cannot be countered by moster haki, roger was a perfect example in this case, they were stated to be equal, and that's it, you can't make up bullshit like WB can one shot this entire planet and the 4 yonko with it lol.


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## YellowCosmos (May 19, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Dofy didn't say "fuck that, I quit", he didn't get mad and scream or throw things across the room, he smiled while lounging in a chair in excitement and showed up to the battle smirking.
> 
> All of Doffys snickering and grinning shit stopped just at the mere mentioning of Kaido's name. Take that how you will.



In one case, Doffy would have been Kaido's primary target and he would have had to to oppose him using his own resources.

In the other case, Doffy wasn't Whitebeard's primary target and knew that the Whitebeard Pirates would be resisted by the other Shichibukai and the Admirals. Nobody was expecting him to fight Whitebeard.

Not really the same scenario.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Canute87 (May 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Which still requires far greater AP then Kaidou showed


The gura  just  has a certain characteristic  that can easily affect the environment.  That's all there is to it.   
Wwhat gura did against the individual characters  , Kaido could easily do as  well.  Kaido can easily one shot John giant with a single bagua.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Duhul10 (May 19, 2022)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> The more I think about this, the more *I don’t see any scenario where Kaido beats Whitebeard in any form. Even when Whitebeard was old and sick, Kaido didn’t move on him until he was thoroughly distracted by a more pressing concern*.
> 
> Whitebeard’s representation by Oda is damn near *flawless*, even in an arc where he was gonna die the entire time. If Kaido really could hang with Whitebeard, why did he wait so long to go for One Piece? *He waited until after Whitebeard died*, until then he just Posted up, and we know Kaido actually wanted it. Whitebeard didn’t.


What a disgusting overestimation of that wreck...

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## MartyMcFly1 (May 19, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> What a disgusting overestimation of that wreck...


What?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## God sl4yer (May 19, 2022)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> What?


He likes to downplay WB and the admirals a lot.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Duhul10 (May 19, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> He likes to downplay WB and the admirals a lot.


Or I simply don't live in the distant past 

Which was of course denied by further evolution of the manga.

Favoritism keeps certain individuals tied to a past which has been far surpassed already.


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## Duhul10 (May 19, 2022)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> What?


Is this a refutal?


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## God sl4yer (May 19, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Or I simply don't live in the distant past
> 
> Which was of course denied by further evolution of the manga.
> 
> Favoritism keeps certain individuals tied to a past which has been far surpassed already.


Right, and now manga supports that kaido can mid diff an admiral? lol

Him 2 shotting an admiral means he can 2 shot any current admiral and severely injure any yonko, this is a fact. This AP is much higher than most top tiers.


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## MartyMcFly1 (May 19, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Or I simply don't live in the distant past
> 
> Which was of course denied by further evolution of the manga.
> 
> Favoritism keeps certain individuals tied to a past which has been far surpassed already.


More like short term memory. From here on out there’s gonna be a lot of admiral hype bro.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Turrin (May 19, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> Bruh...
> there's a difference between haki damage and DF damage. Haki damage is mostly related with internal damage and all the power of your will (advCoC) is used to internally damage someone, on the other hand what DF's does is a different type of damage, some do internal damage, some inviromental damage etc etc there's a difference.
> 
> 1) akainu DF does more damage than WB's gura and is more lethal, but we saw that WB's DF had much bigger scale, does that mean akainu's fruit isn't the most lethal fruit there is?
> ...


No it’s not. There is only one Technique where Haki does Internal Damage. Otherwise Haki damage is external then same as any other attack. 
—-
There are of course different types of damage. However this does not change the fact that WB having the power to destroy the world has greater AP then Kaidou. Akainu DF being among the strongest in AP, means he also likely has the ability to destroy the world or very close to it with his DF. Which is far from
Unimaginable since Akainu DF can effect the environment as we saw on Punk Hazard; and Massive Volcanic Eruptions on some crazy Shonen scale could easily be world ending or close attacks.
—-
Roger’s Haki being enough to counter WB’s quakes means just that Roger Haki attacks also are at this planet endangering level as well. This is hardly surprising given he is indicated to be >= Prime Garp; and Prime Garp was able to overpower Don Chinjoa’s Drill which is Continental.


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## Turrin (May 19, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> The gura  just  has a certain characteristic  that can easily affect the environment.  That's all there is to it.
> Wwhat gura did against the individual characters  , Kaido could easily do as  well.  Kaido can easily one shot John giant with a single bagua.


To effect the environment to such a degree as to end the world requires greater AP then Kaidou displayed. It’s that simple. Unless you can explain how he can have lesser AP but still effect the environment enough to end the world


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## Duhul10 (May 19, 2022)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> More like short term memory. From here on out there’s gonna be a lot of admiral hype bro.


The gorosei themselves don't hype the admirals. Just imagine the fact that Sanji's probably going to beat one.


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## Steven (May 19, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> He likes to downplay WB and the admirals a lot.


Coming from a WB wanker

The Ironie


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## Duhul10 (May 19, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> *Right, and now manga supports that kaido can mid diff an admiral*? lol
> 
> Him 2 shotting an admiral means he can 2 shot any current admiral and severely injure any yonko, this is a fact. This AP is much higher than most top tiers.


Hard to believe right? That's what I meant, living in the past.

He didn't really 2 shot an admiral, aside from the fact that those were his 2 strongest attacks. He is of course a danger to any current yonko, but of course he'd lose in the end.


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## God sl4yer (May 19, 2022)

Steven said:


> Coming from a WB wanker
> 
> The Ironie


lol I agree that WB was the weakest yonko at the time and might lose to akainu in a 1v1, so how exactly am i a WB wanker?


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## God sl4yer (May 19, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Hard to believe right? That's what I meant, living in the past.
> 
> He didn't really 2 shot an admiral, aside from the fact that those were his 2 strongest attacks. He is of course a danger to any current yonko, but of course he'd lose in the end.


How are the admirals going to be relevant If kaido can mid diff them? That doesn't make any sense, and they have both feats and hype to push kaido to at least high diff.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## God sl4yer (May 19, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> The gorosei themselves don't hype the admirals. Just imagine the fact that Sanji's probably going to beat one.


They don't? They called aokiji very strong and were worried that he left the navy.

EOS sanji extreme diffing an admiral is reasonable, sanji right now is borderline YC1 level and eos sanji will be much higher.


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## Canute87 (May 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> To effect the environment to such a degree as to end the world requires greater AP then Kaidou displayed. It’s that simple. Unless you can explain how he can have lesser AP but still effect the environment enough to end the world


it just requires a certain type of ability.

The fact that whitebeard could just get angry and the island titled should tell you that.

Whitebeard has an ability that directly affects tectonic plates i.e seismic waves.  

There's nothing in one piece universe that automatically puts seismic waves above blunt force in how painful at attack to an individual could be.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Turrin (May 19, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> it just requires a certain type of ability.
> 
> The fact that whitebeard could just get angry and the island titled should tell you that.
> 
> ...


If his quakes are strong enough to effect the Tectonic plates to the point of causing the world to ends that’s greater AP in those quakes then anything Kaidou and Luffy displayed. Please keep in mind the Wano people could not even feel the impact of Luffy Barjang Gun. They were over and island sized distance away but still this is far from the AP to effect tectonic plates which is continental+ at minimum


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## MartyMcFly1 (May 19, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> The gorosei themselves don't hype the admirals. Just imagine the fact that Sanji's probably going to beat one.


Because the Gorosei trust that the admirals are indoctrinated enough to listen to them. They’re still the main line of defense for the Tenryuubito.

I’ve been thinking of making a post about this recently, if I had never read One Piece and was given a brief description of what the series is about, I would expect to see a character named Blackbeard. I would even expect him to be very powerful, likely one of the final antagonists. Most people can see that without much trouble. However they have a hard time applying this to the admirals and marines in general.


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## Duhul10 (May 19, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> How are the admirals going to be relevant If kaido can mid diff them? That doesn't make any sense, and they have both feats and hype to push kaido to at least high diff.


Oh, yeaaah, not saying they get mid diffed, especially not all of them, I was just giving an example. The reasoning of "how can an ADMIRAL lose like that?"
Well why wouldn't an admiral lose like that ( let's say high diff ) if Kaido is nigh equal to a God whom the bosses of the admirals fear so, so much and never thought that an admiral can beat him? Aside from the fact that the wg fears angering Kaido from the get-go.


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## Duhul10 (May 19, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> They don't? They called aokiji very strong and were worried that he left the navy.
> 
> EOS sanji extreme diffing an admiral is reasonable, sanji right now is borderline YC1 level and eos sanji will be much higher.


They don't to the point of actually believing they can competently protect the wg from Luffy and his gang. Of course they believe they are strong, who wouldn't?


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## Duhul10 (May 19, 2022)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> *Because the Gorosei trust that the admirals are indoctrinated enough to listen to them. They’re still the main line of defense for the Tenryuubito*.
> 
> I’ve been thinking of making a post about this recently, if I had never read One Piece and was given a brief description of what the series is about, I would expect to see a character named Blackbeard. I would even expect him to be very powerful, likely one of the final antagonists. Most people can see that without much trouble. However they have a hard time applying this to the admirals and marines in general.


To the bolded I'd like to say a quote which is very famous nowadays: "Objection! Hearsay!"

You're just making an attempt to justificate why the Gorosei  believe what they believe, but the justification is baseless. They actually fear Joyboy, they fear that their system is in serious danger.


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## Canute87 (May 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> If his quakes are strong enough to effect the Tectonic plates to the point of causing the world to ends that’s greater AP in those quakes then anything Kaidou and Luffy displayed. Please keep in mind the Wano people could not even feel the impact of Luffy Barjang Gun. They were over and island sized distance away but still this is far from the AP to effect tectonic plates which is continental+ at minimum


That's not greater AP.  That's just mastery of the DF , how far he can influence the power.  No different that Kiji  being able to freeze the ocean as far as he did.

And you also need to consider a possible "domino effect".  Earth quakes happen naturally as well. 

 So he can easily just be the starter fluid.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## God sl4yer (May 19, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> That's not greater AP.  That's just mastery of the DF , how far he can influence the power.  No different that Kiji  being able to freeze the ocean as far as he did.
> 
> And you also need to consider a possible "domino effect".  Earth quakes happen naturally as well.
> 
> So he can easily just be the starter fluid.


This. Perfectly explained.


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## God sl4yer (May 19, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Oh, yeaaah, not saying they get mid diffed, especially not all of them, I was just giving an example. The reasoning of "how can an ADMIRAL lose like that?"
> Well why wouldn't an admiral lose like that ( let's say high diff ) if Kaido is nigh equal to a God whom the bosses of the admirals fear so, so much and never thought that an admiral can beat him? Aside from the fact that the wg fears angering Kaido from the get-go.


Luffy's ability is said to be broken but a part of it's power is that it has its own will and people get attached to the user and other shonen bullshit. This is one of the main reason that WG fears luffy.
Yonko is someone who have a crew consisting of thousands of pirates and some strong commanders, the yonko hype and portrayal doesn't only comes from the captain itself, kaido in this case.


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## Turrin (May 19, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> That's not greater AP.  That's just mastery of the DF , how far he can influence the power.  No different that Kiji  being able to freeze the ocean as far as he did.
> 
> And you also need to consider a possible "domino effect".  Earth quakes happen naturally as well.
> 
> So he can easily just be the starter fluid.


Huh? Moving the tectonic plates is an AP feat. Not just an AoE one. It takes insane force to do that. What are you smoking dude


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## God sl4yer (May 19, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> They don't to the point of actually believing they can competently protect the wg from Luffy and his gang. Of course they believe they are strong, who wouldn't?


1) Luffy hasn't reached his full potential yet, he will still grow stronger and the navy is afraid from that peak joyboy luffy.

2) luffy has a yonko+ level  crew with him so it's not only luffy.


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## God sl4yer (May 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Huh? Moving the tectonic plates is an AP feat. Not just an AoE one. It takes insane force to do that. What are you smoking dude


That force to move plates is a devil fruit power and ability and not pure AP.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (May 19, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> 1) Luffy hasn't reached his full potential yet, he will still grow stronger and the navy is afraid from that peak joyboy luffy.
> 
> 2) luffy has a yonko+ level  crew with him so it's not only luffy.


The Gorosei feared the simple awakening of the fruit, not that Luffy will grow even stronger in time. They, of course, fear even that, but they were heavily alerted by the awakening itself.

Luffy's crew is not yonko+ level. Most of the crew is literally non-factor against a yonko, with only 2 of them being YC1ish level and one low top tier. Kaido, BM, current BB would still smash them.


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## Canute87 (May 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Huh? Moving the tectonic plates is an AP feat. Not just an AoE one. It takes insane force to do that. What are you smoking dude


It's more of  a DF  ability.

AP is more emphasized if if a force outside of natural occurrence can achieve a similar thing. .

A punch breaking an island in two has a shitload more AP than seismic waves because it's not within the normal capabilities of a punch to have that kind of effect. 

Similar thing with Garp and Chinajo.  Garp is not capable of breaking the ice berg even though his punch is more powerful. His punch does not have the drilling capabilities that Chinjao's head has.

Crocodile can reduce a mountain to dust with his DF,  Garp can do the same with a punch.  One is ability,  One is AP.

Likewise law cutting the mountain back in punk hazard was due to the DF and not purely physical cutting power.

Make no mistake seismic waves are very powerful but there are also certain characteristics seismic waves have that blunt force doesn't have to achieve more terrifying results. But tectonic plates by NATURE  are far more susceptible to attacks of a certain type.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## God sl4yer (May 19, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> The Gorosei feared the simple awakening of the fruit, not that Luffy will grow even stronger in time. They, of course, fear even that, but they were heavily alerted by the awakening itself.


True, but that awakened luffy is a yonko level character, and no reason to believe that gorosei won't be afraid of a new developing yonko, and then Monkey D luffy's potential with that DF would make him a joyboy level threat.


Duhul10 said:


> Luffy's crew is not yonko+ level. Most of the crew is literally non-factor against a yonko, with only 2 of them being YC1ish level and one low top tier. Kaido, BM, current BB would still smash them.


Lol i mean he has a full yonko crew, not a crew which can beat a yonko.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Turrin (May 19, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> It's more of  a DF  ability.
> 
> AP is more emphasized if if a force outside of natural occurrence can achieve a similar thing. .
> 
> ...


And I’m saying that a Seismic wave that’s powerful enough to effect the tectonic plates to the point of destroying the planet is beyond the AP of what we have seen thus far from Kaidou and Luffy. That’s all. I’m not saying the power of said waves is as strong as a Punch that could do the same thing


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## Turrin (May 19, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> That force to move plates is a devil fruit power and ability and not pure AP.


It is pure AP, as WB can apply that force in his attacks on people. He can Quake people.


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## Canute87 (May 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> And I’m saying that a Seismic wave that’s powerful enough to effect the tectonic plates to the point of destroying the planet is beyond the AP of what we have seen thus far from Kaidou and Luffy. That’s all. I’m not saying the power of said waves is as strong as a Punch that could do the same thing


But what I'm saying is that Whitebeard wouldn't create a single seismic wave to destroy the planet.

He'd just create a seismic wave that causes other seismic waves to trigger off hence why i mentioned the "domino " effect.


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## MrAnalogies (May 19, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> That's not greater AP.  That's just mastery of the DF , how far he can influence the power.  No different that Kiji  being able to freeze the ocean as far as he did.
> 
> And you also need to consider a possible "domino effect".  Earth quakes happen naturally as well.
> 
> So he can easily just be the starter fluid.


He legitimately doesn't understand that attack power/destructive capacity doesn't automatically mean that a character can destroy x object in an instant with their own raw power. If a character can create flames and sets an oil factory on fire and blows it up, that does NOT mean the character has building level attack power. He caused a chain reaction that led to the buildings destruction. The oil and flammable materials were the major factors.

The earths crust can be very unstable and is already prone to things like earthquakes naturally without whitebeard doing anything. It's entirely possible he could cause a shockwave that makes the crust fall apart and cause worldwide destruction. Or he could create Noah's flood level tsunamis with his earthquakes wiping out all life. There are tons of possibilities and none of them would require WB literally being able to put planet busting power into his attacks in a 1v1 scenario. If a furious WB at Marineford didn't end the planet going all out against Akainu, then obviously he can't just channel his power directly that way. Unless people think Akainu has planet level durability.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Canute87 (May 19, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> He legitimately doesn't understand that attack power/destructive capacity doesn't automatically mean that a character can destroy x object in an instant with their own raw power. If a character can create flames and sets an oil factory on fire and blows it up, that does NOT mean the character has building level attack power. He caused a* chain reaction* that led to the buildings destruction. The oil and flammable materials were the major factors.
> 
> The earths crust can be very unstable and is already prone to things like earthquakes naturally without whitebeard doing anything. It's entirely possible he could cause a shockwave that makes the crust fall apart and cause worldwide destruction. Or he could create Noah's flood level tsunamis with his earthquakes wiping out all life. There are tons of possibilities and none of them would require WB literally being able to put planet busting power into his attacks in a 1v1 scenario. If a furious WB at Marineford didn't end the planet going all out against Akainu, then obviously he can't just channel his power directly that way. Unless people think Akainu has planet level durability.


CHAIN REACTION!!!

THAT"S THE FUCKING WORD.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## God sl4yer (May 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> It is pure AP, as WB can apply that force in his attacks on people. He can Quake people.


So why didn't he when he tried to kill akainu? tilting the sea didn't destroy MF so he can definitely apply all that power to his punch and kill akainu without destroying MF.


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## Turrin (May 19, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> But what I'm saying is that Whitebeard wouldn't create a single seismic wave to destroy the planet.
> 
> He'd just create a seismic wave that causes other seismic waves to trigger off hence why i mentioned the "domino " effect.


You realize we have had massive earthquakes all the time that don’t cause a domino effect that destroys the world. The AP necessary to start said domino effect would still require AP beyond anything we have seen thus far in the series. That’s what your refusing to acknowledge


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## God sl4yer (May 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> You realize we have had massive earthquakes all the time that don’t cause a domino effect that destroys the world. The AP necessary to start said domino effect would still require AP beyond anything we have seen thus far in the series. That’s what your refusing to acknowledge


It has nothing to do with AP, him tilting the sea and destroying the world is his DF ability. His DF directly works on the plates and moves them, that's not considered to be AP.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 19, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> It has nothing to do with AP, him tilting the sea and destroying the world is his DF ability. His DF directly works on the plates and moves them, that's not considered to be AP.


Yes and the power to move those plates is AP. It’s not like he can just magically beat any plate no matter it’s size that’s not his DF


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## Canute87 (May 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> You realize we have had massive earthquakes all the time that don’t cause a domino effect that destroys the world. The AP necessary to start said domino effect would still require AP beyond anything we have seen thus far in the series. That’s what your refusing to acknowledge


We haven't had earthquakes like  what was in san andreas. and even  that crazy mega  tsunami was the result of multiple earth quakes.

It's not as if Whitebeard just needs to swing his arm once and he does that.  He's going to have to do it multiple times.


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## MrAnalogies (May 19, 2022)

God sl4yer said:


> It has nothing to do with AP, him tilting the sea and destroying the world is his DF ability. His DF directly works on the plates and moves them, that's not considered to be AP.


It's no different from Aokiji freezing an entire lake. His ability is to freeze things around him. It doesn't mean anytime he hits someone he's striking with enough force to destroy a lake sized object.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Turrin (May 19, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> We haven't had earthquakes like  what was in san andreas. and even  that crazy mega  tsunami was the result of multiple earth quakes.
> 
> It's not as if Whitebeard just needs to swing his arm once and he does that.  He's going to have to do it multiple times.


We have had Magnitude 9.5 Earthquakes and they came nowhere near close to destroying the world. Which is enough to make my point that realistically WB Quakes would have to far exceed Magnitude 9.5 to destroy the planet, which is much greater then Island+ AP Luffy and Kaidou are showing.
—-
Even from a inverse perspective WB (and Teach) did a Quakes at MF which could be felt Islands away, so this is a Island+ feat (or greater) and it didn’t come close to destroying the One Piece world. So whatever Quake(s) WB would be using to destroy the world have massively greater AP then what WB showed at MF, which is still one of the greatest AP Feats in the verse.


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## Turrin (May 19, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> It's no different from Aokiji freezing an entire lake. His ability is to freeze things around him. It doesn't mean anytime he hits someone he's striking with enough force to destroy a lake sized object.


Yeah because Freezing isn’t the same thing as applying the force of an earthquake to someone. Like what the fuck even is this logic


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## Canute87 (May 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> We have had Magnitude 9.5 Earthquakes and they came nowhere near close to destroying the world. Which is enough to make my point that realistically WB Quakes would have to far exceed Magnitude 9.5 to destroy the planet, which is much greater then Island+ AP Luffy and Kaidou are showing.
> —-
> Even from a inverse perspective WB (and Teach) did a Quakes at MF which could be felt Islands away, so this is a Island+ feat (or greater) and it didn’t come close to destroying the One Piece world. So whatever Quake(s) WB would be using to destroy the world have massively greater AP then what WB showed at MF, which is still one of the greatest AP Feats in the verse.


how long do those earthquakes last for?


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## TheWiggian (May 19, 2022)

The strongest paramecia that is hyped to destroy the world = not ap


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## Duhul10 (May 19, 2022)

People still commiting Onan's sin over that WB hyperbole ? The guy's best actual feat is the destruction of the plaza of a small island. That tilting sh*t is as useless as one can produce  the waves could've reached another galaxy, it was still only a fodder control attack.


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## MrAnalogies (May 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Yeah because Freezing isn’t the same thing as applying the force of an earthquake to someone. Like what the fuck even is this logic


Freezing and creating earthquakes are both simply devil fruit abilities, but I guess that went right over your head as usual. Both Aokiji and WB could probably destroy the caucus mountains with their abilities but that doesn't mean they can *punch* their opponents with enough force to destroy mountains. That's not how it works.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how WB didn't destroy the planet while pissed off and hitting Akainu and Teach with everything he had. Planet level durability for top tiers confirmed?


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## jesusus (May 19, 2022)

What's stopping Whitebeard from grabbing this clown's head and feeding gura punches down his throat?


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## TheWiggian (May 19, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Freezing and creating earthquakes are both simply devil fruit abilities, but I guess that went right over your head as usual. Both Aokiji and WB could probably destroy the caucus mountains with their abilities but that doesn't mean they can punch their opponents with enough force to destroy mountains. That's not how it works.
> 
> I'm still waiting for you to explain how WB didn't destroy the planet while pissed off and hitting Akainu and Teach with everything he had. Planet level durability for top tiers confirmed?



Because Akainus body absorbed the majority of the force. His durability is scaled to small continent level, even though calcs are pretty much meaningless you guys argue about that here.


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## Duhul10 (May 19, 2022)

jesusus said:


> What's stopping Whitebeard from grabbing this clown's head and feeding gura punches down his throat?


What's stopping Kaido from Baguaing the sh*t out of this old, slow, sick and CoO-less fart ? 


as for your question: FS, durability above those city block level punches, vastly superior stats, haki, heat that could damage a god and so on.


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## Shunsuiju (May 19, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> What's stopping Kaido from Baguaing the sh*t out of this old, slow, sick and CoO-less fart ?
> 
> 
> as for your question: FS, durability above those city block level punches, vastly superior stats, haki, heat that could damage a god and so on.


despite all that whitebeard still downed someone stronger than kaido albeit with a cheap shot.

whitebeard before taking on all of marineford and back when ace couldnt touch him in his sleep, hes giving kaido the work.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Duhul10 (May 19, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> despite all that whitebeard still *downed someone stronger than kaido albeit with a cheap shot.*
> 
> whitebeard before taking on all of marineford and back when *ace couldnt touch him in his sleep*, hes giving kaido the work.


 give this man his cookie !!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TheWiggian (May 19, 2022)

WSP > Not WSP 

or 

WSP > W2SP who can only become WSP after the previous WSP dies

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3 | Creative 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 19, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> give this man his cookie !!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MrAnalogies (May 19, 2022)

jesusus said:


> What's stopping Whitebeard from grabbing this clown's head and feeding gura punches down his throat?


-Kaido is faster and has future sight which means he might not get grabbed in the first place

-He can make his body as hot as an oven and burn WBs hands off.

-He could Boro breath WB's face off if he just stood there grabbing onto Kaido. We all know what happened the last time WBs face was exposed to a steaming hot blast.

-He could punch WB back or claw at him with his 5 inch talons until he makes him let go. Or hit him with his club.

-He can transform into his full dragon form and make WB lose his grip immediately. 

I'm probably missing lots of things, but that wouldn't be a viable strategy at all.


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## MrAnalogies (May 19, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> despite all that whitebeard still downed someone stronger than kaido albeit with a cheap shot.


Akainu is not stronger than Kaido. Someone asked Oda a question about Akainu in an sbs and then immediately used kaido as a better example of strength. Imagine getting the spotlight taken off of you by the author when the subject was about you.  

That's without even getting into the fact Kaido has the world's strongest title and is clearly much more durable than Akainu who you admitted WB snuck up on with a cheap shot so I'm not sure where you're going with this.


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## MrAnalogies (May 19, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Because Akainus body absorbed the majority of the force. His durability is scaled to small continent level, even though calcs are pretty much meaningless you guys argue about that here.


I don't get into calcs unless it's very basic stuff like the speed formula/escape velocity/etc. Sometimes people take it way too far. 

Either way, we know Akainu doesn't have anywhere near continent level durability so this idea WB has actual planet level attacking power in 1v1 scenarios is nonsense unless you want to wank every top tier to planetary stats. And if you do that the matchup just gets even worse for WB.


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## TheWiggian (May 19, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> I don't get into calcs unless it's very basic stuff like the speed formula/escape velocity/etc. Sometimes people take it way too far.
> 
> Either way, we know Akainu doesn't have anywhere near continent level durability so this idea WB has actual planet level attacking power in 1v1 scenarios is nonsense unless you want to wank every top tier to planetary stats. And if you do that the matchup just gets even worse for WB.



They're somewhat comparable wether you like it or not, else the difference in strength would be too big. Their stats are distributed differently but the overall amount of ability/stats points would be comparable and balanced out.


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## MrAnalogies (May 19, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> They're somewhat comparable wether you like it or not, else the difference in strength would be too big. Their stats are distributed differently but the overall amount of ability/stats points would be comparable and balanced out.


It wouldn't be "balanced" at all even if every yonko had the exact same speed, durability, haki, technique, stamina, etc but WB could punch with literal planet level attacks. None of the other stats would matter and he'd win every matchup with ease with a glancing blow. Even if every yonko was 2x better than WB with every stat, all he'd need is a single hit to win. 

That's why this discussion doesn't make any damn sense. WB obviously doesn't hit that hard unless you want to argue that every top tier is also planet level since multiple characters took hits from WB without splattering into atoms somehow. It would be a very difficult thing to prove since we've seen most top tiers get hurt by attacks WAY below planet level.


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## Shunsuiju (May 19, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Akainu is not stronger than Kaido. Someone asked Oda a question about Akainu in an sbs and then immediately used kaido as a better example of strength. Imagine getting the spotlight taken off of you by the author when the subject was about you.
> 
> That's without even getting into the fact Kaido has the world's strongest title and is clearly much more durable than Akainu who you admitted WB snuck up on with a cheap shot so I'm not sure where you're going with this.


when has kaido ever beaten a top tier like whitebeard?


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## MrAnalogies (May 19, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> when has kaido ever beaten a top tier like whitebeard?


Kaido defeated 2 yonko level opponents, Luffy and Oden, and fought evenly with Big Mom for hours. 

What does this misdirection have to do with the fact Akainu is obviously not stronger or more durable than Kaido?


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## Shunsuiju (May 19, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Kaido defeated 2 yonko level opponents, Luffy and Oden, and fought evenly with Big Mom for hours.


oh please, luffy wasnt nearly yonko level yet and oden wouldve beat kaido without the distraction


MrAnalogies said:


> What does this misdirection have to do with the fact Akainu is obviously not stronger or more durable than Kaido?


later villain >

you and i both know akainu's stronger


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## MrAnalogies (May 20, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> oh please, luffy wasnt nearly yonko level yet and oden wouldve beat kaido without the distraction


Luffy split the sky and had advanced haki, he was yonko level. Kaido beat him.

You _don't_ know if Oden would have beat him.




Shunsuiju said:


> later villain >
> 
> you and i both know akainu's stronger


Ok Turrin.

Let me know when you have some real feats _proving_ (key word here for the hard headed) Akainu is stronger than Kaido. The manga disagrees with you.


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## Eustathios (May 20, 2022)

People really arguing that Oden wasn't about to turn Kaido into sushi 


*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Seraphoenix (May 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Concession accepted, that you had no argument and are arguing against what was clearly shown in the text


There is no concession. The text clearly says Red-hair and his men. Followed by dialogue in italics from his men. Even early translations have it like that. The problem is you lack reading comprehension or are so intransigent that you'll never admit you're wrong even when it's painfully obvious you are.

The idea that Shanks is scared of WB is laughable given what we've seen in the manga. As @trance pointed out, he came onto WB's ship solo, disrespected him by damaging his ship and asking Marco to join. Then was the first to draw his sword. This shows complete fearlessness. The same fearlessness where he challenged Mihawk while drunk. The same fearlessness when he challenged all the marines and BB.

So when reading the Ace novel, it's obvious to anyone with a brain that it can't be Shanks saying that. It specifically says Red-hair and his men. Do you understand what "and his men' means? Probably not. Because you have to save face by never conceding. Problem with that is you put yourself in a corner where you directly contradict the material, then end up looking like an idiot when you keep digging in.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Seraphoenix (May 20, 2022)

trance said:


> i'm not sure if turrin knows the difference between AoE potency and damage potency
> 
> 
> what facts? that was a heavily weakened and almost dead WB
> ...


Unfortunately Turrin is very hit and miss when it comes to understanding things. He struggled in Naruto as well.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Duhul10 (May 20, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> when has kaido ever beaten a top tier like whitebeard?


Hope you don't dare imply Akainu won sh*t there ?


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## Turrin (May 20, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> how long do those earthquakes last for?


I mean there has been a magnitude 8.5 that lasted 32 Years lol:

And the world was fine. So your just not right bruv


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## Turrin (May 20, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Freezing and creating earthquakes are both simply devil fruit abilities, but I guess that went right over your head as usual. Both Aokiji and WB could probably destroy the caucus mountains with their abilities but that doesn't mean they can *punch* their opponents with enough force to destroy mountains. That's not how it works.
> 
> I'm still waiting for you to explain how WB didn't destroy the planet while pissed off and hitting Akainu and Teach with everything he had. Planet level durability for top tiers confirmed?


Being both DF abilities doesn’t mean they work the same. WB Quakes people with force. Therefore his ability is a force based one, not Hax like Aokjii Freezing something. Please I’m beginning you to apply common sense.
—-
I already explained why posts ago.


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## Turrin (May 20, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> There is no concession. The text clearly says Red-hair and his men. Followed by dialogue in italics from his men. Even early translations have it like that. The problem is you lack reading comprehension or are so intransigent that you'll never admit you're wrong even when it's painfully obvious you are.
> 
> The idea that Shanks is scared of WB is laughable given what we've seen in the manga. As @trance pointed out, he came onto WB's ship solo, disrespected him by damaging his ship and asking Marco to join. Then was the first to draw his sword. This shows complete fearlessness. The same fearlessness where he challenged Mihawk while drunk. The same fearlessness when he challenged all the marines and BB.
> 
> So when reading the Ace novel, it's obvious to anyone with a brain that it can't be Shanks saying that. It specifically says Red-hair and his men. Do you understand what "and his men' means? Probably not. Because you have to save face by never conceding. Problem with that is you put yourself in a corner where you directly contradict the material, then end up looking like an idiot when you keep digging in.


*Red Hair* and His Men. Yet somehow you have determined this is just the thoughts of his men, despite Red Hair being the Speaker before and After; and included in that sentiment.

As far as translators go, I only saw the English translation, so if the Japanese Raw makes it more clear, and a translator has explained why, then cool post that quote and I’ll concede it’s WB’s men. But based on how the English language works it would be Shanks making that statement since Shanks is the speak before and after (or at worse it would be the thoughts of Shank’s Men and Shanks, since it cites both just before that).

So rather then being salt AF and Buthurt, and going off about how I can’t understand the English language, why not just post the Translators comments and end this there?
—-
Your presupposing that Shanks can’t hide his fear and that Shanks couldn’t have grown stronger since the Ace Novel. Your presuppositions aren’t canon.
—-
Beyond all of this Shanks at the very least is the one directly saying the quote about how Ace can’t mean challenging WB, over the other 3 Yonko. So no matter what it’s clear Shanks believes WB is the most Dangerous Yonko to Challenge and holds him above the other 2.


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## Shunsuiju (May 20, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Luffy split the sky and had advanced haki, he was yonko level. Kaido beat him.


yonko level base luffy  


MrAnalogies said:


> You _don't_know if Oden would have beat him.


cope


Duhul10 said:


> Hope you don't dare imply Akainu won sh*t there ?


i meant that whitebeard beat akainu. worded that poorly.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Rp4lyf (May 20, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> yonko level base luffy
> 
> cope
> 
> i meant that whitebeard beat akainu. worded that poorly.


Yes, both kaido and Luffy are Yonko level in base.  Base Kaido also split the sky with Big mom.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Shunsuiju (May 20, 2022)

Rp4lyf said:


> Yes, both kaido and Luffy are Yonko level in base.  Base Kaido also split the sky with Big mom.


the difference between base and nika is waaaaay bigger than base and hybrid.


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## MrAnalogies (May 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Being both DF abilities doesn’t mean they work the same. WB Quakes people with force. Therefore his ability is a force based one, not Hax like Aokjii Freezing something. Please I’m beginning you to apply common sense.
> —-
> I already explained why posts ago.


I didn't say they work exactly the same and of course an earthquake is going to generate force. There's more that happens in an earthquake besides raw force. The bottom line is that we DON'T know how WBs powers would work to "destroy the world" and it's very vague. It's also _extremely_ inconsistent with the feats he displayed even while bloodlusted and attempting to avenge his dead son. 

The yonko and other top tiers consistently show city to island level AP on average, something like planet level would be absurd. The yonko are depicted as near equals with the clashes of WB and Shanks, Kaido and BM, Luffy and Kaido, etc all splitting the sky when they use conqueror's haki. So do you think Shanks' arm is strong enough to handle planet level force...?

If he could apply planet level AP into his attacks, Teach and Akainu would be *DEAD* unless you think they have planet level durability. That's all there is to it.


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## The crazy hacker (May 20, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> the difference between base and nika is waaaaay bigger than base and hybrid.


I dont think the gap is that big. Yes base Kaido>base Luffy. But the pre-G5 fight showed that G4 and G2/3 has a small gap and we already know that G2/3 and base is extremely close.

Luffy is still at least a YC1+ in base. Kaido is a lower top tier.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrAnalogies (May 20, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> yonko level base luffy


Show me someone who isn't a yonko splitting the sky and I'll concede.

Show me someone way below yonko level slugging it out and fighting evenly with another yonko while you're at it. I'll wait.



Shunsuiju said:


> cope


So you know for a fact Oden would have won? The manga disagrees with you. The reason Kaido can't let it go is because the fight was inconclusive due to the interference. Obviously you have horrible reading comprehension if you didn't know this. It's kind of a _huge_ part of Kaido's characterization to want to have a conclusive battle with someone strong and the reason he killed the CP0 agent.


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## Shunsuiju (May 20, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Show me someone who isn't a yonko splitting the sky and I'll concede.


why do i have to? it's a pure CoC feat.


MrAnalogies said:


> Show me someone way below yonko level slugging it out and fighting evenly with another yonko while you're at it. I'll wait.


yamato, marco, vista


MrAnalogies said:


> So you know for a fact Oden would have won? The manga disagrees with you. The reason Kaido can't let it go is because the fight was inconclusive due to the interference. Obviously you have horrible reading comprehension if you didn't know this. It's kind of a _huge_ part of Kaido's characterization to want to have a conclusive battle with someone strong and the reason he killed the CP0 agent.


oden had the advantage before the interference.


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## Turrin (May 20, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> I didn't say they work exactly the same and of course an earthquake is going to generate force. There's more that happens in an earthquake besides raw force. The bottom line is that we DON'T know how WBs powers would work to "destroy the world" and it's very vague. It's also _extremely_ inconsistent with the feats he displayed even while bloodlusted and attempting to avenge his dead son.
> 
> The yonko and other top tiers consistently show city to island level AP on average, something like planet level would be absurd. The yonko are depicted as near equals with the clashes of WB and Shanks, Kaido and BM, Luffy and Kaido, etc all splitting the sky when they use conqueror's haki. So do you think Shanks' arm is strong enough to handle planet level force...?
> 
> If he could apply planet level AP into his attacks, Teach and Akainu would be *DEAD* unless you think they have planet level durability. That's all there is to it.


No the bottom line is if you can’t describe a way that Quakes could destroy the world without creating a force beyond what Kaidou displayed. You have no argument
—-
Akainu and Teach not being dead is a red Harring argument for reasons I already explained to you that you have no suitable refute for


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## MrAnalogies (May 20, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> why do i have to? it's a pure CoC feat


Because only yonko split the sky. The only logical conclusion is that anyone splitting the sky is yonko level.




Shunsuiju said:


> yamato, marco, vista


Well obviously Yamato isn't "way below" yonko level if she can fight kaido in his hyrbrid form for nearly a full chapter.

Marco and vista did not "slug it out" with any yonko fighting evenly with them, what are you talking about?




Shunsuiju said:


> oden had the advantage before the interference.


That's your opinion. We don't know how the fight would have ended. That's the WHOLE POINT. It was _*directly compared*_ to Kaido vs Luffy because it was the exact same scenario, no one knows how tbag fight would have ended without interference but Kaido was the winner according to the author himself. That's war. Even Luffy and Kaido agreed it was a win for Kaido but neither of them were satisfied and Luffy even said "don't worry about it" just like when his fight with Katakuri was interrupted. Try to actually read the manga instead of spinning your own agenda


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## MrAnalogies (May 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> No the bottom line is if you can’t describe a way that Quakes could destroy the world without creating a force beyond what Kaidou displayed. You have no argument
> —-
> Akainu and Teach not being dead is a red Harring argument for reasons I already explained to you that you have no suitable refute for


I don't need to. I've said this to you several times. Either teach and Akainu are planet level or WB can't use planet level AP in battle. You can deflect and run all you want but this will always be an issue for what you're claiming. WB was bloodlusted and not holding back and didn't destroy the planet. I'm still waiting.


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## Shunsuiju (May 20, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Because only yonko split the sky. The only logical conclusion is that anyone splitting the sky is yonko level.


thats some toddler level logic  


MrAnalogies said:


> Well obviously Yamato isn't "way below" yonko level if she can fight kaido in his hyrbrid form for nearly a full chapter.


moving the goal post i see

yamato is way below the yonko. on par or slightly below regular luffy


MrAnalogies said:


> Marco and vista did not "slug it out" with any yonko fighting evenly with them, what are you talking about?


marco fought big mom for a couple chapters and so did vista. we have panels of them doing exactly that as well. what are you on about?


MrAnalogies said:


> *That's your opinion.* We don't know how the fight would have ended. That's the WHOLE POINT. It was _*directly compared*_ to Kaido vs Luffy because it was the exact same scenario, no one knows how tbag fight would have ended without interference but Kaido was the winner according to the author himself. That's war. Even Luffy and Kaido agreed it was a win for Kaido but neither of them were satisfied and Luffy even said "don't worry about it" just like when his fight with Katakuri was interrupted. Try to actually read the manga instead of spinning your own agenda

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## yaboilat (May 20, 2022)

Luffy has been Yonko level ever since he split the sky

Base Luffy splits the sky (something Oda has reserved solely for Great Pirates) and the clash is even compared to Whitebeard and Roger’s and he’s not Yonko level???

He was going blow for blow against Hybrid Kaido (who was also noted to be growing even stronger after drinking) and even outmatching him in some cases, but he’s not Yonko level???

you think Kaido was holding back so much he was weaker than his base form, despite saying Luffy’s the best fight he’s had in years???

Reactions: Like 1


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## Golden Garp (May 20, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Kaido defeated 2 yonko level opponents, Luffy and Oden, and fought evenly with Big Mom for hours.
> 
> What does this misdirection have to do with the fact Akainu is obviously not stronger or more durable than Kaido?




Ain't no way Oden is Yonko tier. Luffy wasn't Yonko Tier until G5 where he beat Kaido.


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## MrAnalogies (May 20, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> thats some toddler level logic


The only one acting like a toddler is you for not providing an actual rebuttal.

Name some characters who aren't yonko level who split the sky.




Shunsuiju said:


> moving the goal post i see
> 
> yamato is way below the yonko. on par or slightly below regular luffy


I didn't move any goal post. Regular Luffy split the sky after learning advanced conqueror's haki and fought with hybrid kaido. Therefore regular Luffy is obviously yonko level. He even told law to take Zoro and leave and that he could handle kaido. Yamato was able to fight with hybrid kaido for a few moments. Therefore Yamato obviously isn't way below yonko level.




Shunsuiju said:


> marco fought big mom for a couple chapters and so did vista. we have panels of them doing exactly that as well. what are you on about


Were they going toe to toe with the yonko and heavily damaging them with blood like Luffy was? No. Marco and vista are also commanders.

Luffy was already commander level after beating two of big Mom's commanders. Rooftop Luffy is *significantly* stronger than the one one whole cake island after having mastered advanced armament, conqueror's, and observation. Luffy went from being unable to damage kaido at all with his best attacks and being demolished with 1 hit to hurting kaido in base and being able to take multiple thunder baguas. If you still think Luffy isn't yonko level after all that you simply don't know what you're reading.



Shunsuiju said:


> oden had the advantage before the interference


Since you're hard headed I'm going to go over each point and then leave the discussion. Take it or leave it.

-Kaido had no idea Oden could use advanced conqueror's haki. When Zoro was on the rooftop he was about to be cut by a deadly enma slash that BM warned him to dodge. If that attack landed and severely wounded kaido would you say Zoro is superior to Kaido? I wouldn't because that would be ridiculous. In both scenarios Kaido was off guard and didn't know the full extent of the opponents abilities and nearly paid for it dearly. He's lazy on defense because he knows he has insane durability.

-Kaido was in his dragon form, then went to his base form. He *wasn't* going all out. No hybrid, no drinking, nothing. For you to ignore all that and then say Oden was "definitely" going to win even though it was written intentionally to suggest it could have gone either way means you are either being disingenuous or you need everything spelled out for you.

-He didn't bother using future sight. Which again, shows that Kaido clearly wasn't going all out. If the old lady didn't interfere then he might have used it to dodge the next hit. Or maybe Kaido lands the next lethal hit before Oden does. Or he transforms. There are literally dozens of possibilities.

-To use another example, if base Luffy was caught off guard and heavily wounded by Blackbeard who suddenly used a secret 3rd devil fruit ability, nobody with an ounce of intelligence would say that it was a "conclusive" battle that proved Blackbeard>Luffy ignoring the fact Luffy never got a chance to power up and use his gear or other abilities. Or shanks fight with Blackbeard where he was suddenly scarred unaware of how deadly Blackbeard was. I can give multiple examples destroying this weird rhetoric you have.

-at the end of the day, kaido still won the fight according to the manga itself. If you have a problem with that, send a letter to Oda. You're complaining to the wrong person and ignoring what has been stated in the story.


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## MrAnalogies (May 20, 2022)

Golden Garp said:


> Ain't no way Oden is Yonko tier. Luffy wasn't Yonko Tier until G5 where he beat Kaido.


Kaido: "Straw hat...How high can your ceiling go...?!"

*Thinks about 4 yonko level characters and also thinks about Oden*

Golden Garp: "Oden wasn't yonko level". 

Ok.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 20, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> The only one acting like a toddler is you for not providing an actual rebuttal.
> 
> Name some characters who aren't yonko level who split the sky.


correlation =/= causation. yonko splitting the sky is something they have in common, bu that doesnt mean it's something only they can do. in fact, i would say the fact that base luffy did it rules out that possibility.

besides, it's just a CoC feat. youve provided no actual reasoning as to why it would be exclusive to yonko.


MrAnalogies said:


> I didn't move any goal post. Regular Luffy split the sky after learning advanced conqueror's haki and fought with hybrid kaido. Therefore regular Luffy is obviously yonko level. He even told law to take Zoro and leave and that he could handle kaido. Yamato was able to fight with hybrid kaido for a few moments. Therefore Yamato obviously isn't way below yonko level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you asked me to provide characters who can exchange blows with emperor level people and i gave you some. now you're adding in all these extra stipulations.

was big mom hurting marco? was mihawk hurting vista? was aokiji hurting jozu before the distraction? these are all characters who've fought emperor level people for a few moments. they are also all way below yonko level like yamato.

luffy got way stronger in nika mode and barely beat hybrid kaido. base luffy isn't yonko level.


MrAnalogies said:


> Since you're hard headed I'm going to go over each point and then leave the discussion. Take it or leave it.
> 
> -Kaido had no idea Oden could use advanced conqueror's haki. When Zoro was on the rooftop he was about to be cut by a deadly enma slash that BM warned him to dodge. If that attack landed and severely wounded kaido would you say Zoro is superior to Kaido? I wouldn't because that would be ridiculous. In both scenarios Kaido was off guard and didn't know the full extent of the opponents abilities and nearly paid for it dearly. He's lazy on defense because he knows he has insane durability.
> 
> ...


all im hearing are a bunch of excuses and assumptions.


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## Mihawk (May 20, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Kaido: "Straw hat...How high can your ceiling go...?!"
> 
> *Thinks about 4 yonko level characters and also thinks about Oden*
> 
> ...



Actually only one of those 5 characters is arguably confirmed Yonko level, and that would be Shanks.

As for Oden, he probably didn't even hit his true ceiling since he died at age 39.


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## trance (May 20, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Actually only one of those 5 characters is arguably confirmed Yonko level, and that would be Shanks.


wait 

of roger, primebeard, shanks, xebec and oden only shanks is confirmed yonko level?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MrAnalogies (May 21, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> correlation =/= causation. yonko splitting the sky is something they have in common, bu that doesnt mean it's something only they can do. in fact, i would say the fact that base luffy did it rules out that possibility.
> 
> besides, it's just a CoC feat. youve provided no actual reasoning as to why it would be exclusive to yonko.


Because only yonko have done it. Pretty obvious visual cue unless you want to put fingers in your ears and say la la la. We literally get kaido asking how high Luffy's ceiling will go, kaido says "only the very strongest can use advanced conqueror's haki", and then we see Luffy splitting the sky. Like why do I have to keep spelling basic story telling out for you...?






Shunsuiju said:


> ou asked me to provide characters who can exchange blows with emperor level people and i gave you some. now you're adding in all these extra stipulations.
> 
> was big mom hurting marco? was mihawk hurting vista? was aokiji hurting jozu before the distraction? these are all characters who've fought emperor level people for a few moments. they are also all way below yonko level like yamato.
> 
> luffy got way stronger in nika mode and barely beat hybrid kaido. base luffy isn't yonko level.



This is what I asked for

"Show me someone way below yonko level slugging it out and fighting evenly with another yonko while you're at it. I'll wait."

You bringing up people fighting yonko "for a few moments" isn't what I asked for. Sorry, I know you desperately want to just dismiss what I wrote as shifting the goal posts because you learned a new catchphrase.

Marco and Vista never slugged it out with a yonko fighting on an even playing field. I didn't change any criteria. You think clashing a few times fits the criteria, Marco was not pushing big mom to her limits the way Kidd or law were there's a huge difference and certainly not the way Luffy and Kaido were slugging it out.

Mihawk clearly wasn't going all out against vista are you drunk?




Shunsuiju said:


> all im hearing are a bunch of excuses and assumptions.


Literally _*none*_ of those were assumptions. Did I "assume" kaido was in his base form or is there some hidden page in Two Piece showing Kaido in his hybrid form, drunk, and using future sight against Oden?


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## MrAnalogies (May 21, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Actually only one of those 5 characters is arguably confirmed Yonko level, and that would be Shanks.
> 
> As for Oden, he probably didn't even hit his true ceiling since he died at age 39.


I am so confused. You normally make very good posts but...are you telling me Whitebeard, who was the first yonko introduced in the story, wasn't yonko level? Roger, his rival wasn't yonko level? Xebec the guy who needed Roger and Garp teaming up to defeat? Please explain.

As for Oden, people can get mad and stomp their feet all they want, but Kaido compared him to the absolute strongest in the series so he's definitely yonko level. Kaido also stated only the strongest in the world could use advanced conqueror's haki.


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## Sablés (May 21, 2022)

He believes the others are above Yonko (and I agree) so the comparison doesn't really work.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Sablés (May 21, 2022)

That is to say, there is a gap between Whitebeard, Roger, Garp -> Shanks (Yonko), and if that gap exists, there can also be a similar one for Shanks -> Oden. So Oden could be below Yonko level and still qualify in Kaido's eyes, as the 5 are not necessarily equal or even comparable.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## MrAnalogies (May 21, 2022)

Sablés said:


> That is to say, there is a gap between Whitebeard, Roger, Garp -> Shanks (Yonko), and if that gap exists, there can also be a similar one for Shanks -> Oden. So Oden could be below Yonko level and still qualify in Kaido's eyes, as the 5 are not necessarily equal or even comparable.


When we have a panel saying this is the Pinnacle of strength for the series

And then people are dissecting it forming their own strict "sub categories" and tier list head cannon

That's when I tap out and I'm done with the discussion. No offense. It's the same reason Dragonball died because people obsessed over multipliers and power levels over analyzing who could beat who.

For me, it's pretty simple. Oden was able to use advanced conqueror's haki. Kaido said _only the absolute strongest could use advanced conqueror's haki_. Only yonko are seen splitting the sky, and Luffy split the sky after figuring out how to use advanced conqueror's haki. Kaido is a yonko and fought evenly with other yonko like Big Mom. Oden mortally wounded kaido, who is a yonko, and looked more impressive doing so than any other character on panel until we got to roof piece. _Kaido put Oden on the same pedestal as 4 other characters, 2 of whom were yonko_. Because the fight was ruined due to interference, it made Kaido depressed and he obsessed over it. Wano mourned the loss of Oden and there hasn't been a samurai on his level for _20 years_.

To me, the logical conclusion is the Oden is yonko level. Does this mean I think he has a 50/50 shot at beating any yonko? No, but to act like he's not even within the _ballpark_ of the other yonko requires tremendous amounts of mental gymnastics and tier list logic that is counter intuitive to what the _story_ is saying.

If Oden isn't even half as strong as the yonko (and I'm not saying you're saying this), then it doesn't make any damn sense for him to

A) severely injure a yonko
B) use advc haki when only the "strongest" can
C) left such a strong impression on a yonko that they obsesses over Oden for literal decades

Maneuvering around all that heads into the "author doesn't know what he's talking about" territory and that is a thin sheet of ice I am not willing to walk on.


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## ShWanks (May 21, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Apples and oranges.
> 
> Doflamingo had the Shichibukai and the full might of the marines fighting alongside him during the war against Whitebeard.
> 
> In a war against Kaido, Doflamingo doesn’t have powerful allies fighting alongside him.  He would be sweating hard if he heard Whitebeard was sailing to Dressrosa.


None of that matters. The mere name of Kaido is what scared him implying Kaido was all he thought about when the name was brought up. He wasn't scared of WB name but rather excited. You're just playing cemantics because you refuse to believe Kaido surpassed "Goatbeard" & by extension Roger.


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## The crazy hacker (May 21, 2022)

Just being yonkou level doesn't mean that you have to be as strong as G5 Luffy, Shanks, Big Mom or Kaido. We have payback war Blackbeard being a yonkou even though he is significantly weaker than them. Luffy split the skies. Oda's intention is that Luffy is a top tier. He might not have been as strong as Kaido or those solid top tiers but he was a top tier.

Kaido is just a higher top tier then a lot of people think.


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## Mihawk (May 21, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> I am so confused. You normally make very good posts


Thank you.


MrAnalogies said:


> but...are you telling me Whitebeard, who was the first yonko introduced in the story, wasn't yonko level? Roger, his rival wasn't yonko level? Xebec the guy who needed Roger and Garp teaming up to defeat? Please explain.


I'm saying that WB in his prime (which is the version of WB in that panel on Kaido's mind) is above Yonko level. The same goes for Roger the Pirate King who equalled him. The same for Xebec too perhaps.



MrAnalogies said:


> As for Oden, people can get mad and stomp their feet all they want, but Kaido compared him to the absolute strongest in the series so he's definitely yonko level. Kaido also stated only the strongest in the world could use advanced conqueror's haki.


Which is based on Kaido's impression.



Sablés said:


> He believes the others are above Yonko (and I agree) so the comparison doesn't really work.


Yes.


MrAnalogies said:


> When we have a panel saying this is the Pinnacle of strength for the series
> 
> And then people are dissecting it forming their own strict "sub categories" and tier list head cannon
> 
> ...



It's not really about creating personal sub categories or head canon. I'm actually also going by what the manga has shown.
We also have a panel of _Old _Whitebeard being placed on the same pedestal as Big Mom, Kaido, and Shanks, all fellow Yonko by Garp. We know for a fact that this version of WB who was the WSM, was on this level based on statements by Buggy, Jinbei, Ace, Doflamingo, Sengoku, Garp, Big Mom, and other credible sources. We also know that this WB was weaker than the one who was equal to the Pirate King, 20 years younger, and far healthier. Yet this older version was still "Yonko level" canonically.

So yeah it's pretty simple, Prime WB=Roger > Old WB.

This was not to confuse you. The reason why I said Shanks was the only "confirmed" Yonko level character in the list, because he is the only one out of those 5 actually confirmed to be at that level while the other 4's placement can be disputed or argued with.


To me, the logical conclusion is that Kaido's list is a list of the 5 people who made the biggest impression on him, and are the 5 people that _he _considers capable of fighting him (which is what he said), *that he has encountered. *Why? Well, because we have canon information that he has either met or confronted all 5 of these guys at different points in the past. Xebec was his former captain on a crew that had plenty of infighting. Roger became Pirate King, which is something he aspires to. Not to mention, they met at God Valley. WB was a former crew mate, and later a longtime rival as a fellow Yonko whom he tried to intercept at Marineford. Said interception was stopped by Shanks, another fellow Yonko who became a rival in the last 6 years. Then we have Oden, who gave him his scar.

These are the people that Kaido place on a similar pedestal, because they are the people who made the biggest impact on him. Is it head canon to suggest this? You may think so, however the alternative includes brushing aside all other established preconceptions by other credible characters who place plenty others on similar pedestals, while never mentioning Oden. For example, Whitebeard placed Garp and Sengoku on the same pedestal as Roger when talking to Shanks. Garp placed Rayleigh on a similar pedestal to Whitebeard, while WB pretty much called Mihawk a legend with Shanks. Then we have Garp himself who directly compares Old Whitebeard to Big Mom, Kaido, and Shanks, while Big Mom herself places Kaido/Shanks/WB on a similar pedestal. However, neither Garp, Sengoku, Ray, or Big Mom ever made it on his list. So does that mean one's opinion invalidates the other or takes precedent over everything?? No it shouldn't. 



MrAnalogies said:


> If Oden isn't even half as strong as the yonko (and I'm not saying you're saying this), then it doesn't make any damn sense for him to
> 
> A) severely injure a yonko
> B) use advc haki when only the "strongest" can
> ...



Oden is strong, but let's be honest:

A) Kaido wasn't a Yonko back then. Heck, he wasn't even in Hybrid form;
B) Zoro and Yamato can both use Advanced Conqueror's Haki. Neither of them are the "strongest" or anywhere close to it;
C) Is the main reason why he even made the list in the first place, due to the scar he left some 25 years ago...Kaido's had plenty of room to grow since then.


I never said Oda doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm just saying there's plenty of other information that suggests otherwise.

As for Oden being Yonko level simply based on that panel..? I'll say the logical conclusion is that he wasn't at the time when he met Kaido (because Kaido himself wasn't), but had the potential to be if he was never killed.

Oden died at a young age. No doubt he would've grown stronger over the next 20 years if he had survived and have been truly worth of that comparison to figures like Roger.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mihawk (May 21, 2022)

trance said:


> wait
> 
> of roger, primebeard, shanks, xebec and oden only shanks is confirmed yonko level?



Yes. 

Roger/Primebeard and most likely Xebec were better than Yonko, because an old version of WB stalemated Yonko as their peer and was called a Yonko. 

To me, splitting the skies alone isn't enough to make you Roger level. 

Luffy split the skies with Kaido, and then blew his load a few chapters later while dying without even being able to push Kaido to his limits.


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## Turrin (May 21, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> I don't need to. I've said this to you several times. Either teach and Akainu are planet level or WB can't use planet level AP in battle. You can deflect and run all you want but this will always be an issue for what you're claiming. WB was bloodlusted and not holding back and didn't destroy the planet. I'm still waiting.


And I’ve explained why this logic is wrong several times.

-WB was near death and not in top condition when he hit Teach/Akainu

- WB can’t endanger his fellow crew mates and Luffy by using too big of an attack


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## MrAnalogies (May 21, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> I'm saying that WB in his prime (which is the version of WB in that panel on Kaido's mind) is above Yonko level. The same goes for Roger the Pirate King who equalled him. The same for Xebec too perhaps.


Sorry I don't believe in "pirate king level"/"borderline yonko level" sub category head cannon stuff. Obviously WB was stronger in his prime but people tend to exaggerate as if he was like 5x stronger than marineford and nothing suggests that. It's all speculation. Based on power scaling and hype, xebec does indeed seem to be a notch above yonko. 




Mihawk said:


> Which is based on Kaido's impression


Kaido is being used by the author as an exposition piece to build up hype and show how close Luffy is to becoming one of the big boys. Kaido is more knowledgeable about combat than any other character alive right now and has fought more top tiers than anyone else. His opinion is to be taken very seriously.




Mihawk said:


> So yeah it's pretty simple, Prime WB=Roger > Old WB.


Never disputed that, this is common sense.

Old WB at Marineford had been weakening and was inactive. Nobody had seen him in action for a while, he basically was holding the wsm title hostage like a boxing champion who hadn't defended his belt in a long time. To me, the whole point of the squardo stab scene was to show just how much he had fallen. We have Marco explicitly stating he should have been able to dodge even while off guard and that he shouldn't have removed the IVs but did so out of pride. Even crocodile was upset and not impressed saying WB was weak. Then there's the fact he had a hard time using haki consistently and was prone to heart attacks. 

I think it's a very safe bet that other than offensive power with his quake fruit and sheer toughness/experience, marineford WB absolutely was not a peer to BM, Kaido, maybe not even shanks. 




Mihawk said:


> This was not to confuse you. The reason why I said Shanks was the only "confirmed" Yonko level character in the list, because he is the only one out of those 5 actually confirmed to be at that level while the other 4's placement can be disputed or argued with.


I didn't think you were intentionally trying to be confusing I just don't agree with all these sub categories because yonko level is a fan term and anything behind that is speculation upon speculation head cannon stuff. 




Mihawk said:


> To me, the logical conclusion is that Kaido's list is a list of the 5 people who made the biggest impression on him, and are the 5 people that _he _considers capable of fighting him (which is what he said), *that he has encountered. *Why? Well, because we have canon information that he has either met or confronted all 5 of these guys at different points in the past. Xebec was his former captain on a crew that had plenty of infighting. Roger became Pirate King, which is something he aspires to. Not to mention, they met at God Valley. WB was a former crew mate, and later a longtime rival as a fellow Yonko whom he tried to intercept at Marineford. Said interception was stopped by Shanks, another fellow Yonko who became a rival in the last 6 years. Then we have Oden, who gave him his scar


Well hypothetically if he fought the 5 of them and they ALL left a "big impression" on him the obvious conclusion is that the none of the characters within that panel are leagues ahead of any of the other 4. 

This would be like if Arlong left just as strong of an impression on Luffy as lucci. It doesn't make any sense if the two people being compared aren't in the same zip code. 




Mihawk said:


> For example, Whitebeard placed Garp and Sengoku on the same pedestal as Roger when talking to Shanks


And then shanks drew his sword and clashed with WB splitting the sky showing no fear and making WBs men pass out. The whole time WB was being condescending and looking down on Shanks as a bray from the past and then Shanks showed that he absolutely could have fucked WB up if his intentions were to go to war. Just put all the power level stuff aside and think about it narratively. The impression I got from that scene was that WB was acting like an out of touch old man severely underestimating how strong the forces around him had become because he had been unchallenged for years. He didn't even take the warnings about teach that serious despite knowing teach killed one of his commanders and wounded a yonko. 




Mihawk said:


> Garp placed Rayleigh on a similar pedestal to Whitebeard, while WB pretty much called Mihawk a legend with Shanks. Then we have Garp himself who directly compares Old Whitebeard to Big Mom, Kaido, and Shanks, while Big Mom herself places Kaido/Shanks/WB on a similar pedestal. However, neither Garp, Sengoku, Ray, or Big Mom ever made it on his list. So does that mean one's opinion invalidates the other or takes precedent over everything?? No it shouldn't.


-Well Rayleigh also was stale mated by Kizaru who fought evenly with Marco, a commander. 
-mihawk's slash intended to harm WB was blocked by Jozu, a commander. He also clashed with Vista, a commander who put up a good fight
-nit picking over who made this or that list is going to just lead to purely agenda based tier list discussions as I just demonstrated. If I wanted to be a dick, I could pretend like mihawk and raykeigh were way below yonko level based on portrayal. 




Mihawk said:


> A) Kaido wasn't a Yonko back then. Heck, he wasn't even in Hybrid form;
> B) Zoro and Yamato can both use Advanced Conqueror's Haki. Neither of them are the "strongest" or anywhere close to it;
> C) Is the main reason why he even made the list in the first place, due to the scar he left some 25 years ago...Kaido's had plenty of room to grow since then.


A) kind of irrelevant when no other swordsman cut him that badly for 20 years and it left such a strong impression on him. He compared Oden to shanks who is probably the 2nd best swordsman on earth, what more do you want? If the pain stayed with him all these years the damage is obviously still impressive to him even if he himself has improved.

B) kaido stated "only the strongest people can use advanced conqueror's haki" so obviously they're amongst the strongest. This is what I mean when I say people are walking on the thin ice of "author doesn't know what he's saying". 

C) never said kaido couldn't have grown. But we know for a fact most yonko are depicted as extremely durable chariand only the strongest attacks can harm them. Again, pretty simple story telling stuff. Oden not only mortally wounded kaido, *it's left ambiguous who would have won their fight*. That's the whole point. A character way below yonko level would NEVER be in a position to potentially defeat a yonko in combat. 




Mihawk said:


> Oden died at a young age. No doubt he would've grown stronger over the next 20 years if he had survived and have been truly worth of that comparison to figures like Roger.


Well kaido said he was worthy of being compared to Roger. At this point you are disagreeing with the manga.

Luffy, Kidd, Zoro, and law are more than a decade younger than Oden was yet are awfully close to reaching Rogers level.


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## MrAnalogies (May 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> And I’ve explained why this logic is wrong several times.
> 
> -WB was near death and not in top condition when he hit Teach/Akainu
> 
> - WB can’t endanger his fellow crew mates and Luffy by using too big of an attack


The problem with this is that Sengoku still believes WB could have destroyed the world at marineford. Believing be couldn't due to his injuries is pure speculation from you.

It doesn't matter where WB is standing or if his crew members are near him. *If he uses a planet level attack...they all die*. That's why doesn't do it. So it _doesn't_ _matter_ in a battle scenario.

Teach ate the earthquake fruit and yet kaido was still stated to be the strongest in the world and that you should bet on him in 1v1 scenarios. If teach can literally use planet level attacks then why did it take so long to call him a yonko? Why wasn't teach called the best person for 1v1's? Why did kaido say no one in the world can take him down despite knowing teach had the earthquake fruit?


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## Duhul10 (May 21, 2022)

Did I actually hear Pampersbeard and planet level in the same sentence ?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 21, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Because only yonko have done it. Pretty obvious visual cue unless you want to put fingers in your ears and say la la la. We literally get kaido asking how high Luffy's ceiling will go, kaido says "only the very strongest can use advanced conqueror's haki", and then we see Luffy splitting the sky. Like why do I have to keep spelling basic story telling out for you...?


you're just repeating the same thing without giving any rebuttals to my points


MrAnalogies said:


> You bringing up people fighting yonko "for a few moments" isn't what I asked for





MrAnalogies said:


> Yamato was able to fight with hybrid kaido for a few moments. Therefore Yamato obviously isn't way below yonko level.





MrAnalogies said:


> Literally _*none*_ of those were assumptions.





MrAnalogies said:


> -Kaido had no idea Oden could use advanced conqueror's haki.


assumption


MrAnalogies said:


> -Kaido was in his dragon form, then went to his base form. He *wasn't* going all out.


this is just not true

kaido continuously uses his dragon form when hes serious


MrAnalogies said:


> -He didn't bother using future sight.


assumption


MrAnalogies said:


> -To use another example, if base Luffy was caught off guard and heavily wounded by Blackbeard who suddenly used a secret 3rd devil fruit ability, nobody with an ounce of intelligence would say that it was a "conclusive" battle that proved Blackbeard>Luffy ignoring the fact Luffy never got a chance to power up and use his gear or other abilities. Or shanks fight with Blackbeard where he was suddenly scarred unaware of how deadly Blackbeard was. I can give multiple examples destroying this weird rhetoric you have.


dont even know what you were trying to prove here


MrAnalogies said:


> -at the end of the day, kaido still won the fight according to the manga itself. If you have a problem with that, send a letter to Oda. You're complaining to the wrong person and ignoring what has been stated in the story.


kaido and higurashi won the fight

and at the end of the day, these are all just excuses to cover up for the fact that oden had the advantage before he was unfairly defeated.


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## Golden Garp (May 21, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Kaido: "Straw hat...How high can your ceiling go...?!"
> 
> *Thinks about 4 yonko level characters and also thinks about Oden*
> 
> ...



Glad you didn't dispute the Luffy point. That Kaido statement doesn't prove Oden's Yonko tier as we can clearly see there was a gap between Oden and WB/Roger. Who's to say that gap doesn't exist between him and Shanks? Oden hasn't shown anywhere close to Yonko tier feats thus he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. Kaido also never "beat" Oden in a fair fight anyways, so your point earlier still wouldn't work.


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## Grinningfox (May 21, 2022)

Why is oldbeard used as the standard for Yonko when it was Primebeard who set the standard?


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## Grinningfox (May 21, 2022)

Golden Garp said:


> Glad you didn't dispute the Luffy point. That Kaido statement doesn't prove Oden's Yonko tier as we can clearly see there was a gap between Oden and WB/Roger. Who's to say that gap doesn't exist between him and Shanks? Oden hasn't shown anywhere close to Yonko tier feats thus he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. Kaido also never "beat" Oden in a fair fight anyways, so your point earlier still wouldn't work.


There was a shown gap between pre ACoC Oden and Roger/Whitebeard. We have no idea the difference between them when Oden was at the peak of his powers.


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## Six (May 21, 2022)

Pre heart attack Newgate defeats any Admiral or Emperor 1v1.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 21, 2022)

Grinningfox said:


> There was a shown gap between pre ACoC Oden and Roger/Whitebeard. We have no idea the difference between them when Oden was at the peak of his powers.


We know Oden was an underling to Roger when he was at the peak of his powers. That shows a gap.


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## Grinningfox (May 21, 2022)

Six said:


> Pre heart attack Newgate defeats any Admiral or Emperor 1v1.


Hell catch a heart attack during the fight with any top tier


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## Grinningfox (May 21, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> We know Oden was an underling to Roger when he was at the peak of his powers. That shows a gap.


Again that doesn’t tell us the difference

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrAnalogies (May 21, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> you're just repeating the same thing without giving any rebuttals to my points


You literally didn't address anything and just said I wrote like a toddler and now you're upset that I supposedly didn't form a rebuttal? You are either the biggest hypocrite on the forum or you have an insane lack of self awareness.



Shunsuiju said:


> yamato, marco, vista


You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I asked for characters way below yonko level fighting evenly with a yonko the way Luffy was. 

Yamato obviously isn't way below yonko level if she's fighting a yonko using his strongest hybrid form and not dying in 2 seconds. 




Shunsuiju said:


> assumption


Kaido didn't know Zoro was going to use and advanced conqueror's slash and BM told him to dodge so why is it a stretch to assume kaido simply didn't know Oden was going to cut him? 




Shunsuiju said:


> this is just not true
> 
> kaido continuously uses his dragon form when hes serious


He uses his hyrbrid form when he's serious just keep making stuff up if you want to.




Shunsuiju said:


> assumption


If he was using future sight oda would have said so. Be always explicitly mentions it. Kaido didn't bother using future sight for 50 fucking chapters getting hit on purpose. 



Shunsuiju said:


> dont even know what you were trying to prove here


Of course not because you have an agenda and you're slow. I'm tired of going back and forth with someone who just keeps saying "nope" and ignoring what's in the manga. 




Shunsuiju said:


> kaido and higurashi won the fight
> 
> and at the end of the day, these are all just excuses to cover up for the fact that oden had the advantage before he was unfairly defeated.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. The author's dialogue said Kaido defeated Luffy, not the CP0 agent. You are straight up ignoring what's in the manga so I'm not going to bother responding anymore.


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## MrAnalogies (May 21, 2022)

Golden Garp said:


> Glad you didn't dispute the Luffy point. That Kaido statement doesn't prove Oden's Yonko tier as we can clearly see there was a gap between Oden and WB/Roger. Who's to say that gap doesn't exist between him and Shanks? Oden hasn't shown anywhere close to Yonko tier feats thus he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. Kaido also never "beat" Oden in a fair fight anyways, so your point earlier still wouldn't work.


Oden got stronger after battling with WB and Roger. Did you even read the flashback? He was confused how they were clashing without their swords touching and later on Oden learns advanced conqueror's haki and nearly defeats a yonko. Kaido said Oden was on their level, deal with it. I'm not having these goofy Two Piece head cannon debates anymore. Believe what you want.


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## Turrin (May 21, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> The problem with this is that Sengoku still believes WB could have destroyed the world at marineford. Believing be couldn't due to his injuries is pure speculation from you.
> 
> It doesn't matter where WB is standing or if his crew members are near him. *If he uses a planet level attack...they all die*. That's why doesn't do it. So it _doesn't_ _matter_ in a battle scenario.
> 
> Teach ate the earthquake fruit and yet kaido was still stated to be the strongest in the world and that you should bet on him in 1v1 scenarios. If teach can literally use planet level attacks then why did it take so long to call him a yonko? Why wasn't teach called the best person for 1v1's? Why did kaido say no one in the world can take him down despite knowing teach had the earthquake fruit?


Sengoku didn’t know how much WB decayed due to illness, as not even his Crew knew.
—-
It’s equal speculation in your behalf to assume Illness and injuries didn’t effect WB’s abilities. 
—-
Yes it does, have you never watched or read DBz where they use Planetary attacks in such a way where it doesn’t destroy the planet, but at times they can’t use such big attacks since it would endanger their comarades. This can’t be your first manga bruv

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 21, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> You literally didn't address anything and just said I wrote like a toddler and now you're upset that I supposedly didn't form a rebuttal? You are either the biggest hypocrite on the forum or you have an insane lack of self awareness.


i honestly dont know what you're asking me anymore, you keep changing the question every post.


MrAnalogies said:


> You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I asked for characters way below yonko level fighting evenly with a yonko the way Luffy was.
> 
> Yamato obviously isn't way below yonko level if she's fighting a yonko using his strongest hybrid form and not dying in 2 seconds.


is yamato yonko level?


MrAnalogies said:


> Kaido didn't know Zoro was going to use and advanced conqueror's slash and BM told him to dodge so why is it a stretch to assume kaido simply didn't know Oden was going to cut him?


kaido fought oden before then so he knew he had conquerors.


MrAnalogies said:


> He uses his hyrbrid form when he's serious just keep making stuff up if you want to.





MrAnalogies said:


> If he was using future sight oda would have said so. Be always explicitly mentions it. Kaido didn't bother using future sight for 50 fucking chapters getting hit on purpose.


he didnt mention it because its not worth mentioning. theres no reason to believe kaido was purposefully nerfing himself when he knew how strong oden was.


MrAnalogies said:


> Of course not because you have an agenda and you're slow. I'm tired of going back and forth with someone who just keeps saying "nope" and ignoring what's in the manga.


lmao


MrAnalogies said:


> This is exactly what I'm talking about. The author's dialogue said Kaido defeated Luffy, not the CP0 agent. You are straight up ignoring what's in the manga so I'm not going to bother responding anymore.


:

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MrAnalogies (May 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Sengoku didn’t know how much WB decayed due to illness, as not even his Crew knew.
> —-
> It’s equal speculation in your behalf to assume Illness and injuries didn’t effect WB’s abilities.
> —-
> Yes it does, have you never watched or read DBz where they use Planetary attacks in such a way where it doesn’t destroy the planet, but at times they can’t use such big attacks since it would endanger their comarades. This can’t be your first manga bruv


You literally don't know how claims works. You claimed WB couldn't use planet level AP due to his illness and injuries. You need to _prove_ this is the case. If I don't agree with your head cannon explanation that *isn't* mentioned anywhere in the manga I don't have to prove a negative.

DBZ doesn't have shit to do with this conversation.


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## MrAnalogies (May 21, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> i honestly dont know what you're asking me anymore, you keep changing the question every post.
> 
> is yamato yonko level?
> 
> ...


1) I'm asking you to show me people who aren't yonko splitting the sky. You couldn't. I asked you to show me people who are way below yonko level fighting evenly with a yonko. Marco and vista were not fighting evenly with a yonko. Neither BM nor Mihawk were remotely going all out against them. That isn't up for debate. Base Luffy split the sky which is only something yonko level people have done. Base Luffy fought evenly with a yonko, even making kaido bleed and hurting him several times. NONE of the characters you mentioned did this.

2) I didn't say Yamato was yonko level, I'm saying obviously she isn't way below yonko level if she's fighting kaido in his strongest form without being splattered. Gear 4 Luffy was commander level and was demolished with 1 attack. Do the math.

3) kaido didn't go all out against oden. I dare you to make a poll. You're the only person I've ever seen making these bizarre claims. 

4) was that REGULAR dragon kaido or a brand new form that he used against hear 5 Luffy? Hmm????? Did he use the flaming dragon form against Oden? Rhetorical question. So why the hell are you bringing it up?


We know hybrid form is usually the strongest form for Zoan user so why are you playing these games? He didn't use hybrid or flaming dragon, or drunk style, or future sight against oden. By all means, make a poll for this dumb shit too and let me know how it goes.


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## Turrin (May 21, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> You literally don't know how claims works. You claimed WB couldn't use planet level AP due to his illness and injuries. You need to _prove_ this is the case. If I don't agree with your head cannon explanation that *isn't* mentioned anywhere in the manga I don't have to prove a negative.
> 
> DBZ doesn't have shit to do with this conversation.


No You claimed - WB can’t use Planetary AP since Akainu and Teach tanked his attacks.

I told you in-order for that claim to be true we have to assume that WB was capable of using his full power at that point.

Your claim is dependent on proving he could. Not mine, as I gave another reason why he also would have to scale back his AP, due to his  nakama.


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## MrAnalogies (May 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> No You claimed - WB can’t use Planetary AP since Akainu and Teach tanked his attacks.
> 
> I told you in-order for that claim to be true we have to assume that WB was capable of using his full power at that point.
> 
> Your claim is dependent on proving he could. Not mine, as I gave another reason why he also would have to scale back his AP, due to his  nakama.


Correction: I never said WB can't actually destroy the planet. What I said was that WB couldn't be using planetary attacks on his opponents *unless* you think Akainu and Teach have planet level durability. You backed off from that and claimed WB couldn't use planet level AP because he was sick. So you have to prove WB couldn't use his full power due to being sick. Show me where it says that in the manga or data books. 

You have zero evidence he can scale back his AP. Using Dragonball z is not a valid argument.


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## Shunsuiju (May 21, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> 1) I'm asking you to show me people who aren't yonko splitting the sky. You couldn't.


relevance?


MrAnalogies said:


> I asked you to show me people who are way below yonko level fighting evenly with a yonko. Marco and vista were not fighting evenly with a yonko. *Neither BM nor Mihawk were remotely going all out against them.* That isn't up for debate. Base Luffy split the sky which is only something yonko level people have done. Base Luffy fought evenly with a yonko, even making kaido bleed and hurting him several times. NONE of the characters you mentioned did this.


baseless assumption

your style


MrAnalogies said:


> 2) I didn't say Yamato was yonko level


so fighting with a yonko doesnt make you yonko level


MrAnalogies said:


> 4) was that REGULAR dragon kaido or a brand new form that he used against hear 5 Luffy? Hmm????? Did he use the flaming dragon form against Oden? Rhetorical question. So why the hell are you bringing it up?





MrAnalogies said:


> He uses his hyrbrid form when he's serious just keep making stuff up if you want to.





MrAnalogies said:


> We know hybrid form is usually the strongest form for Zoan user so why are you playing these games? He didn't use hybrid or flaming dragon, or drunk style, or future sight against oden. By all means, make a poll for this dumb shit too and let me know how it goes.


actually the strongest form is full beast. hybrid gives you more versatility, but not more strength. jack for instance likes to use his mammoth form when taking on hordes of enemies because it gives him far more durability and strength than in regular or hybrid form.


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## MrAnalogies (May 21, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> relevance?
> 
> baseless assumption
> 
> ...


The relevance was that you were asking which yonko level fighters kaido defeated. I mentioned Luffy and Oden and you disputed their status as yonko level with a bunch of Two Piece logic.

If you honestly think Big Mom and Mihawk were going all out against Vista and Marco then you are too unintelligent for vs discussions.

I said splitting the sky and fighting evenly with a yonko makes you yonko level. Yamato did neither, she simply held her own before getting demolished.

Full beast is not as effective as hybrid for combat. Maybe effective would be a better word than stronger. That's about the only valid point you've made.


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## ShWanks (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> I agree yonko are superior to admirals but not by a _huge_ margin. Aokiji also hung with WB in their clash. Commanders like Marco, Queen, Zoro, and Killer even managed to hold their own with BM and Kaido.
> 
> The context of our conversation was about how Doffy didn't show fear around Aokiji who was equal to another admiral who held his own with WB in a gruesome fight. Granted WB wasn't at his best but it does say something. Fujitora is obviously no slouch either and Chinjao suggested admirals in general can hold their own with yonko yet Doffy didn't fear Fujitora and even goaded him and clashed with him.
> 
> ...


Lmao they're on copium

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Mihawk (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Sorry I don't believe in "pirate king level"/"borderline yonko level" sub category head cannon stuff. Obviously WB was stronger in his prime but people tend to exaggerate as if he was like 5x stronger than marineford and nothing suggests that. It's all speculation. Based on power scaling and hype, xebec does indeed seem to be a notch above yonko.


How is it "sub category head canon" when the manga places the Pirate King on a higher pedestal than the Yonko?

You agree that Xebec seems to be a notch above Yonko, then we have nothing to discuss here.



MrAnalogies said:


> Kaido is being used by the author as an exposition piece to build up hype and show how close Luffy is to becoming one of the big boys. Kaido is more knowledgeable about combat than any other character alive right now and has fought more top tiers than anyone else. His opinion is to be taken very seriously.


Yes all that is true.

However, the exposition by Kaido is also based on who he knows and who we know he's met thanks to Oda. He's stating that Oden was one of a handful of individuals who could fight him, because Oden _as a matter of fact _did; as you yourself would later claim that it was left ambiguous as to who won the fight. 

Thus, since it is manga canon fact that they did fight toe to toe; Kaido included him in his list. 



MrAnalogies said:


> Never disputed that, this is common sense.


Great.


MrAnalogies said:


> Old WB at Marineford had been weakening and was inactive. Nobody had seen him in action for a while, he basically was holding the wsm title hostage like a boxing champion who hadn't defended his belt in a long time. To me, the whole point of the squardo stab scene was to show just how much he had fallen. We have Marco explicitly stating he should have been able to dodge even while off guard and that he shouldn't have removed the IVs but did so out of pride. Even crocodile was upset and not impressed saying WB was weak. Then there's the fact he had a hard time using haki consistently and was prone to heart attacks.
> 
> I think it's a very safe bet that other than offensive power with his quake fruit and sheer toughness/experience, marineford WB absolutely was not a peer to BM, Kaido, maybe not even shanks.


I'm talking about Old WB who was introduced as WSM.

The same guy whose Haki was working far better than it did in MF as shown when his CoO allowed him to KO Ace in his sleep, and whose CoC was good enough to split the skies with Shanks w/o his DF. That WB was shown and portrayed to be a peer to any Yonko if not greater.



MrAnalogies said:


> I didn't think you were intentionally trying to be confusing I just don't agree with all these sub categories *because yonko level is a fan term and anything behind that is speculation upon speculation head cannon stuff.*


Is it? "Yonko level" merely categorises the Yonko and those whose strength are on their level.

You previously claimed that Oden was probably Yonko level yourself, and that the pirates in Kaido's silhouette were all on that level too.



MrAnalogies said:


> Well hypothetically if he fought the 5 of them and they ALL left a "big impression" on him the obvious conclusion is that the none of the characters within that panel are leagues ahead of any of the other 4.


That is fair enough.

However, it can also mean that they were simply the 5 men who were able to fight him...which would seem to be exactly what Kaido stated? It doesn't necessarily mean they were all on the same level. 


MrAnalogies said:


> This would be like if Arlong left just as strong of an impression on Luffy as lucci. It doesn't make any sense if the two people being compared aren't in the same zip code.


Alright then.


MrAnalogies said:


> And then shanks drew his sword and clashed with WB splitting the sky showing no fear and making WBs men pass out. The whole time WB was being condescending and looking down on Shanks as a bray from the past *and then Shanks showed that he absolutely could have fucked WB up if his intentions were to go to war*. Just put all the power level stuff aside and think about it narratively. The impression I got from that scene was that WB was acting like an out of touch old man severely underestimating how strong the forces around him had become because he had been unchallenged for years. He didn't even take the warnings about teach that serious despite knowing teach killed one of his commanders and wounded a yonko.


No one said Shanks showed any fear and yes he was no brat.

However, WB did acknowledge that Shanks climbed the ladder well and had legendary duels. Behind all the trash talk and snipe, he acknowledged his standing.

The bolded is also nothing more than head canon. Nothing indicates Shanks would've fucked up WB. What Shanks showed was that he could stand up to an Old WB as an equal.



MrAnalogies said:


> -Well Rayleigh also was stale mated by Kizaru who fought evenly with Marco, a commander.
> -mihawk's slash intended to harm WB was blocked by Jozu, a commander. He also clashed with Vista, a commander who put up a good fight
> -nit picking over who made this or that list is going to just lead to purely agenda based tier list discussions as I just demonstrated. If I wanted to be a dick, I could pretend like mihawk and raykeigh were way below yonko level based on portrayal.


Yeah but they have other things going for them too, like being the RHM of the Pirate King and having the WSS title.

Also, Oden got brushed aside by Roger and taken down in one hit by Kaido after getting bonked on the head from behind. That stuff doesn't indicate Yonko level portrayal either.



MrAnalogies said:


> A) kind of irrelevant when no other swordsman cut him that badly for 20 years and it left such a strong impression on him. He compared Oden to shanks who is probably the 2nd best swordsman on earth, what more do you want? If the pain stayed with him all these years the damage is obviously still impressive to him even if he himself has improved.


I'm not trying to take away the feat itself from him, but just pointing out that Zoro accomplished something similar on a much tougher form of Kaido's.

Kaido hadn't been cut by another swordsman for 20 years because he hasn't run into a swordsman of that caliber in 20 years. He admitted no one has pushed him for a long time until Luffy, while BM admitted the same against Kidd/Law. The Yonko aren't constantly going around the world seeking opponents to fight.

Yes, Oden's cut was still impressive and that PTSD (along with the regret of not defeating him cleanly) was largely why Oden left an impression.



MrAnalogies said:


> B) kaido stated "only the strongest people can use advanced conqueror's haki" so obviously they're amongst the strongest. This is what I mean when I say people are walking on the thin ice of "author doesn't know what he's saying".



Rayleigh said the same thing about Future Sight. I'm not saying the author doesn't know what he's saying. I'm saying that there's levels to this when there's a massive gap of strength difference between the likes of Primebeard/Roger and the likes of Yamato/Zoro. It's not going against the author's words to point this out when it's an example you can literally use.



MrAnalogies said:


> C) never said kaido couldn't have grown. But we know for a fact most yonko are depicted as extremely durable chariand only the strongest attacks can harm them. Again, pretty simple story telling stuff. Oden not only mortally wounded kaido, *it's left ambiguous who would have won their fight*. That's the whole point. *A character way below yonko level would NEVER be in a position to potentially defeat a yonko in combat.*


And therein again lies the issue. If Kaido had over 20 years to grow, then there's no reason to think he was a Yonko back then.

Oden fought and left a permanent scar on someone who wasn't a Yonko yet. Furthermore, the latter hadn't even used his more durable form, which was his Hybrid (something Zoro was able to bypass).



MrAnalogies said:


> Well kaido said* he was worthy of being compared to Roger.* At this point you are disagreeing with the manga.


That's not what Kaido said. He said that those were among the ones capable of fighting him, and it's important to once again note that it is based on Kaido's knowledge.

And I did say Prime Oden would've been worthy of being compared to Roger anyways, so I don't see where's the disagreement in the grand scheme of things.



MrAnalogies said:


> Luffy, *Kidd, Zoro, and law* are more than a decade younger than Oden was yet *are awfully close to reaching Rogers level.*



No, they're not...


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## Turrin (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Correction: I never said WB can't actually destroy the planet. What I said was that WB couldn't be using planetary attacks on his opponents *unless* you think Akainu and Teach have planet level durability. You backed off from that and claimed WB couldn't use planet level AP because he was sick. So you have to prove WB couldn't use his full power due to being sick. Show me where it says that in the manga or data books.
> 
> You have zero evidence he can scale back his AP. Using Dragonball z is not a valid argument.


So once again you made the claim that because WB didn’t use Planetary attacks *on Teach and Akainu*, he couldn’t use Planetary attacks *period*. So once again you need to prove that despite Sickness and Injuries he could still use his full power *against Teach and Akainu*; otherwise you argument doesn’t prove he couldn’t use Planetary attack *period*, only that he didn’t *in that situation*.
—-
It doesn’t have to be DBZ it’s just common sense that it depends on how the attack is used. If Luffy’s Barjang Gun was Planetary for example; and he punched Kaidou upwards into the sky it wouldn’t endanger the planet. As opposed to on the scenario where he is punching Kaidou downwards he would need to lower his AP so as to not destroy the planet.

And what do you mean Zero evidence WB can scale back his AP. Just to be clear are you now arguing WB can’t use Quakes with less force and every Quake he uses has the same force behind it?


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Turrin said:


> So once again you made the claim that because WB didn’t use Planetary attacks *on Teach and Akainu*, he couldn’t use Planetary attacks *period*. So once again you need to prove that despite Sickness and Injuries he could still use his full power *against Teach and Akainu*; otherwise you argument doesn’t prove he couldn’t use Planetary attack *period*, only that he didn’t *in that situation*.
> —-
> It doesn’t have to be DBZ it’s just common sense that it depends on how the attack is used. If Luffy’s Barjang Gun was Planetary for example; and he punched Kaidou upwards into the sky it wouldn’t endanger the planet. As opposed to on the scenario where he is punching Kaidou downwards he would need to lower his AP so as to not destroy the planet.
> 
> And what do you mean Zero evidence WB can scale back his AP. Just to be clear are you now arguing WB can’t use Quakes with less force and every Quake he uses has the same force behind it?


If a blood lusted WB trying to avenge his son "chose" not to use planet level attacks, then he probably isn't going to do so against Kaido in a random battle with no emotional investment.

You keep attacking a strawman. I didn't say that him not using that against teach and Akainu is proof he can't because I never said he can't destroy the world. I said we have no evidence he can use planet level AP because he *never* did. There's a difference between being able to destroy the world and using planet level AP in a fight. This is the last time I'm going to explain this, even you can't be this slow and I'm not going to bother replying if you keep rearranging what I'm saying.

You still have to prove that the reason he didn't use planet level AP was because he was sick. That was *your* claim and no matter many times you keep deflecting and trying to put things back on me, you still have to prove this was the case. There is NO evidence being weak and sick prevented WB form using planet level AP. When you are ready to provide evidence from a canon source let me know. Otherwise you are talking out your ass as usual. You do this anytime someone uses basic ass logic to corner you and make you defend your argument, you act like someone disagreeing with you has to provide proof your claim is wrong. That's now how it works and I've explained this to you at least 3x now.

No, it isn't common sense. DBZ is an entirely different manga. They explicitly stated that characters suppress planet level attacks into smaller attacks to avoid destroying the planet due to "ki control". There is no fucking ki in DBZ and it doesn't have the same rules. Show me evidence from the One Piece manga that characters can suppress the power of attacks and not destroy things.


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> How is it "sub category head canon" when the manga places the Pirate King on a higher pedestal than the Yonko?
> 
> You agree that Xebec seems to be a notch above Yonko, then we have nothing to discuss here.


Pirate king is a level of achievement due to finding the One Piece, it has nothing to do with power. Whitebeard was still wsm after Roger became pirate king. Even buggy could be pirate king if he managed to survive to the end of the new world and had all the poneglyphs needed.

Xebec possibly being above yonko level doesn't prove there is some imaginary pirate king level since...he was never pirate king. All it proves was that at some point there was a guy who might have been stronger than your average yonko and that still wouldn't prove Oden doesn't belong on the plateau with the others. 




Mihawk said:


> However, the exposition by Kaido is also based on who he knows and who we know he's met thanks to Oda. He's stating that Oden was one of a handful of individuals who could fight him, because Oden _as a matter of fact _did; as you yourself would later claim that it was left ambiguous as to who won the fight.
> 
> Thus, since it is manga canon fact that they did fight toe to toe; Kaido included him in his list.


I honestly don't even know what this means here. He knows, met, and presumably clashed with basically every top tier in the series and still praised Oden. Unless I'm missing something, pointing this out doesn't help your case. It also doesn't help that during the gear 5 fight, kaido thought to himself nobody can take me down while shanks, big mom, Garp, mihawk, etc were all alive. He thinks they're all inferior to him in a fight to the death and that's why he wants to fight joyboy. 




Mihawk said:


> The same guy whose Haki was working far better than it did in MF as shown when his CoO allowed him to KO Ace in his sleep, and whose CoC was good enough to split the skies with Shanks w/o his DF. That WB was shown and portrayed to be a peer to any Yonko if not greater.


I'd say it's a fairly even fight. 55:45 slightly in Kaido's favor depending on their mentalities and condition. 




Mihawk said:


> Is it? "Yonko level" merely categorises the Yonko and those whose strength are on their level.
> 
> You previously claimed that Oden was probably Yonko level yourself, and that the pirates in Kaido's silhouette were all on that level too.


I wasn't dying on a hill defending the term yonko level. I was just saying if that's what people use to refer to individuals who can hang with yonko it would require lots of mental gymnastics and dishonesty to claim Oden is well below that category. 




Mihawk said:


> However, it can also mean that they were simply the 5 men who were able to fight him...which would seem to be exactly what Kaido stated? It doesn't necessarily mean they were all on the same level.


I never said they're all on the _exact_ same level. Im saying kaido himself is a certain level (yonko tier) and has the title of strongest on earth but those 5 gave him the roughest battles. Kaido stated only the absolute strongest can use advanced conqueror's haki and the first time Luffy actually did significant damage to Kaido was when he used that form of haki. The manga basically confirmed in a roundabout way Oden is either within that same tier or just a hair shy of it since he both had the haki and mortally wounded a yonko. Narratively, there's really no way to avoid this. 




Mihawk said:


> The bolded is also nothing more than head canon. Nothing indicates Shanks would've fucked up WB. What Shanks showed was that he could stand up to an Old WB as an equal.


How can you stand up to a top tier as an "equal" but there is no possibility that the character could potentially fuck up said top tier? I wasn't saying shanks would definitely win, that's not what I want either btw. 




Mihawk said:


> Yeah but they have other things going for them too, like being the RHM of the Pirate King and having the WSS title.
> 
> Also, Oden got brushed aside by Roger and taken down in one hit by Kaido after getting bonked on the head from behind. That stuff doesn't indicate Yonko level portrayal either.


The right hand of the pirate king doesn't need to be yonko level. None of the commanders we've seen are, not even king whose the right hand of the wsm. Mihawk himself said trying to become pirate king is more dangerous and difficult than the wss title. Again, I'm just playing devil's advocate if we're going to go down the route of using hype and quotes.

Oden got stronger after fighting Roger, and Oden was off guard when kaido hit him. It's also a very rushed moment in the flash back just like how Kaido's own flash back was very sloppy and poorly handled. Unless it's the straw hats, Oda rarely shows extended fight scenes. I mean, we literally have the most legendary fight in the series Roger vs WB and Oda cuts it extremely short. 




Mihawk said:


> Yes, Oden's cut was still impressive and that PTSD (along with the regret of not defeating him cleanly) was largely why Oden left an impression.


But to cut him that badly in the first place he would need to be either yonko level or damn near it because no character well below yonko level can heavily damage or fight evenly with one. That's the elephant in the room.




Mihawk said:


> Rayleigh said the same thing about Future Sight. I'm not saying the author doesn't know what he's saying. I'm saying that there's levels to this when there's a massive gap of strength difference between the likes of Primebeard/Roger and the likes of Yamato/Zoro. It's not going against the author's words to point this out when it's an example you can literally use.


I'm sharing Kaido's quote about advanced conqueror's haki combined with all the other evidence is hard to dismiss without mental gymnastics (how high is your ceiling quite, Oden injuring the most durable character in the series, etc). 




Mihawk said:


> And therein again lies the issue. If Kaido had over 20 years to grow, then there's no reason to think he was a Yonko back then.
> 
> Oden fought and left a permanent scar on someone who wasn't a Yonko yet. Furthermore, the latter hadn't even used his more durable form, which was his Hybrid (something Zoro was able to bypass).


Was it ever stated when kaido became a yonko? 




Mihawk said:


> That's not what Kaido said. He said that those were among the ones capable of fighting him, and it's important to once again note that it is based on Kaido's knowledge.
> 
> And I did say Prime Oden would've been worthy of being compared to Roger anyways, so I don't see where's the disagreement in the grand scheme of things.


I meant that he compared him to Roger by remembering Oden at the same time. Again, Arlong and Lucci. 




Mihawk said:


> No, they're not...


Two of them defeated a yonko and one managed to heavily wound one with several broken bones on the verge of death. By next arc it's likely they'll be full blown yonko level but that's just my speculation.


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## Turrin (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> If a blood lusted WB trying to avenge his son "chose" not to use planet level attacks, then he probably isn't going to do so against Kaido in a random battle with no emotional investment.
> 
> You keep attacking a strawman. I didn't say that him not using that against teach and Akainu is proof he can't because I never said he can't destroy the world. I said we have no evidence he can use planet level AP because he *never* did. There's a difference between being able to destroy the world and using planet level AP in a fight. This is the last time I'm going to explain this, even you can't be this slow and I'm not going to bother replying if you keep rearranging what I'm saying.
> 
> ...


I’m aware of what your argument is. But I’ve also already addressed it. When I say Planetary AP, I don’t mean WB is going to crack the entire planet in half with his punch. However there is a certain amount of force required for an earthquake to end the world that WB needs to be capable of in-order to effect the world on a planetary scale, ending it.

Considering none of WB Quakes at MF came anywhere close to ending the One Piece world or demonstrating a planetary effect at all on the One Piece world; WB must be capable of far more devastating quakes then what he showed on MF, that can indeed have planetary effect on the One Piece world.
—-
Simply saying he can’t use stronger quakes because he didn’t use them against Teach / Akainu is not a proper refutation until you prove WB could use his Max Power in those instances, as we have good reasons to believe he may not have been able to.
—-
I literally explained to you how it would work in One Piece as well. So unless your going to address why my example is wrong, instead of just going off about how DBZ is a different manga, as if Shonen Stories don’t share similar DNA, I’m going to equally disregard your refutation here.


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I’m aware of what your argument is. But I’ve also already addressed it. When I say Planetary AP, I don’t mean WB is going to crack the entire planet in half with his punch. However there is a certain amount of force required for an earthquake to end the world that WB needs to be capable of in-order to effect the world on a planetary scale, ending it.
> 
> Considering none of WB Quakes at MF came anywhere close to ending the One Piece world or demonstrating a planetary effect at all on the One Piece world; WB must be capable of far more devastating quakes then what he showed on MF, that can indeed have planetary effect on the One Piece world.
> —-
> ...


All of the stuff you're saying about WB is speculation. We don't know if he'd be capable of making far more powerful earthquakes than what he showed at MF if he wasn't sick or wasn't holding back.

You claimed he could use planet level AP if he wasn't sick. Final time asking you to *show me where it says WB being sick and injured meant he could no longer use planet level AP.*

You explained it, yes, but you showed no evidence at all that it's in One Piece. It doesn't matter if DBZ is similar. I'm not even saying your explanation doesn't make sense (it does), but there is NOTHING in the entire series proving characters can suppress their attacks to avoid damaging a large area. *Show me the evidence*.


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## Turrin (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> All of the stuff you're saying about WB is speculation. We don't know if he'd be capable of making far more powerful earthquakes than what he showed at MF if he wasn't sick or wasn't holding back.
> 
> You claimed he could use planet level AP if he wasn't sick. Final time asking you to *show me where it says WB being sick and injured meant he could not longer use planet level AP.*
> 
> You explained it, yes, but you showed no evidence at all that it's in One Piece. It doesn't matter if DBZ is similar. I'm not even saying your explanation doesn't make sense (it does), but there is NOTHING in the entire series proving characters can suppress their attacks to avoid damaging a large area. *Show me the evidence*.


I Gave you the evidence last post. But I’ll simplify it for you so it doesn’t go over your head this time:

Fact 1 - To Destroy the World WB Quakes need to have to have a Planetary effect

Fact 2- WB Quakes at MF came nowhere close to  having a Planetary effect

Now applying deductive reasoning these first two statements, lead logically to the third statement, the _conclusion:_

WB must be capable of quakes that have a planetary effect he did not show at MF.
—-
No I did not make the claim that illness/injuries *definitely* prevented WB from using his strongest Quakes.

My point is simply:

Both our argument on why WB didn’t kill Akainu/Teach, *require equal speculation *on why he could or couldn’t use his strongest Quakes. The only difference being that your argument has to Presuppose that Sickness/Injuries didn’t effect WB, while in my argument I’ve given the reasoning of it *could have been* sickness/injuries *or* not wanting to hurt his men.

Now that I’ve clarified this again for you, ether quote me where I said sickness/injuries definitely prevented him from using his strongest Quakes; or stop trying to shift the burden of proof to be solely on me, when it’s quite clearly on both of us in this situation.
—-
I’m not sure what you mean by suppress. That’s why I asked you for clarification on this. Are you saying that WB can’t adjust the power of his Quakes and all of his Quakes are the same strength? Once you actually clarify and answer that then I can give you examples based on your response.


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## Shunsuiju (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> The relevance was that you were asking which yonko level fighters kaido defeated. I mentioned Luffy and Oden and you disputed their status as yonko level with a bunch of Two Piece logic.


i never said oden wasnt yonko level


MrAnalogies said:


> I'm asking you to show me people who aren't yonko splitting the sky.


tell me how splitting the sky makes you yonko level. 


MrAnalogies said:


> If you honestly think Big Mom and Mihawk were going all out against Vista and Marco then you are too unintelligent for vs discussions.


were marco and vista going all out?


MrAnalogies said:


> I said splitting the sky and fighting evenly with a yonko makes you yonko level. Yamato did neither, she simply held her own before getting demolished.


the back pedal is insane


MrAnalogies said:


> Show me someone way below yonko level slugging it out and fighting evenly with another yonko while you're at it. I'll wait.





MrAnalogies said:


> Well obviously Yamato isn't "way below" yonko level if she can fight kaido in his hyrbrid form for nearly a full chapter.


originally you agreed yamato was fighting evenly with kaido.

so fighting a yonko does not make you yonko level 


MrAnalogies said:


> Full beast is not as effective as hybrid for combat. Maybe effective would be a better word than stronger. That's about the only valid point you've made.


thats worse.

kaido was incapacitated by oden in his most durable form


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I Gave you the evidence last post. But I’ll simplify it for you so it doesn’t go over your head this time:
> 
> Fact 1 - To Destroy the World WB Quakes need to have to have a Planetary effect
> 
> ...


We don't know how WB would destroy the world. We don't know if he would do that with the same kind of quake's he showed at marineford but simply on a larger scale or if its with a chain reaction, damaging the core, creating tsunamis to simply flood the earth, using an awakening ability he didn't show, etc. We *don't* know. So you can't deduce from the feats at marineford that he must be capable of doing the same exact thing but on a bigger scale.

I never made any claims either way regarding his sickness, I'm simply asking you for evidence that his condition is why he couldn't use AP. Me asking a question is not me making a claim Turrin! I didn't say that you said this was "definitely" the case either, but if you're going to speculate that his sickness and injuries is why he couldn't, that speculation should be based on something substantial.

If WB couldn't or simply chose not to use planet level AP while bloodlusted then it doesn't matter if he actually could or not because that was the angriest we ever saw him on panel and it doesn't matter in a vs thread if a character can do something but still won't even while pissed. 

And before you say I'm speculating, no I'm not. It's a _fact_ that WB was pissed off and attacked with all his rage and didn't kill Teach or Akainu who both got up and kept fighting later. The only logical conclusion is that he either can't use planet level AP in a combat scenario or he chose not to because he didn't want to destroy the damn planet. 

I'm asking for evidence WB can somehow use a planet level attack without destroying the planet like in DBZ which you claimed. There is no evidence One piece characters can suppress attacks that destroy x amount of land. For example, king Kong gun was powerful enough to level a city. Luffy has never been shown suppressing the power of king Kong gun hitting the ground and it does nothing or fails to cause major devastation (unless he's punching an opponent and nothing else).


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> i never said oden wasnt yonko level
> 
> tell me how splitting the sky makes you yonko level.
> 
> ...


Splitting the sky is something only yonko have done. Luffy did so after Kaido said only the strongest can use advanced conqueror's haki. So explain to me how someone below yonko level can be considered one of the strongest and does something only yonko have done but isn't yonko level. 

I don't know if Marco and vista went all out, but the yonko certainly weren't so it was awfully dumb of you to use those as examples of people fighting in an even playing field with yonko. 

Where's the back peddle? My guy, in the quotes you posted I never said she was dead even with kaido. What's insane is your inability to actually read and process what someone wrote and then trying to respond just to argue. In the very quote you posted i said splitting the sky and fighting evenly with a yonko makes you yonko level. Yamato didn't split the sky. She held her own against Kaido and then got beaten down pretty bad. Luffy was making kaido bleed and damaging him heavily. There's a world of difference between the two fights.

Kaido was not in his best combat form. Dragon form kaido was beat up by gear 3 Luffy pre conquers haki and was even wounded by killer. It's good for long range attacks/group battles and tanking damage but hasn't been the most impressive on panel for combat.


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## Perrin (May 22, 2022)

@Duhul10 , do u realise Mr Analogies is flirting with ur gf?

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Duhul10 (May 22, 2022)

Perrin said:


> @Duhul10 , do u realise Mr Analogies is flirting with ur gf?


One can look, but one can't touch

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1 | Lewd 1


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> One can look, but one can't touch


Thank you for your blessing.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Shunsuiju (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Splitting the sky is something only yonko have done. Luffy did so after Kaido said only the strongest can use advanced conqueror's haki. So explain to me how someone below yonko level can be considered one of the strongest and does something only yonko have done but isn't yonko level.


do you understand the difference between correlation and causation or are you just being willfully ignorant? just because you want something to be true, doesnt mean it is.

yamato and zoro have advanced conquerors


MrAnalogies said:


> I don't know if Marco and vista went all out, but the yonko certainly weren't so it was awfully dumb of you to use those as examples of people fighting in an even playing field with yonko.


you can be weaker than someone and still stall them. thats the whole basis of my argument.


MrAnalogies said:


> Where's the back peddle? My guy, in the quotes you posted I never said she was dead even with kaido. What's insane is your inability to actually read and process what someone wrote and then trying to respond just to argue. In the very quote you posted i said splitting the sky and fighting evenly with a yonko makes you yonko level. Yamato didn't split the sky. She held her own against Kaido and then got beaten down pretty bad. Luffy was making kaido bleed and damaging him heavily. There's a world of difference between the two fights.


 how are you blaming me for taking your posts at face value and not assuming you'll change your opinion in a few minutes?


MrAnalogies said:


> Kaido was not in his best combat form. Dragon form kaido was beat up by gear 3 Luffy pre conquers haki and was even wounded by killer. It's good for long range attacks/group battles and tanking damage but hasn't been the most impressive on panel for combat.


its good for tanking damage and he got incapacitated by one attack from oden


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> do you understand the difference between correlation and causation or are you just being willfully ignorant? just because you want something to be true, doesnt mean it is.


Yes I know the difference. The way I interpret sky splitting scenes is that Oda is telling us those characters are yonko level. You are free to disagree.

You are also free to answer my question instead of dodging it.




Shunsuiju said:


> you can be weaker than someone and still stall them. thats the whole basis of my argument.


I never denied someone below yonko level could stall a yonko. But I wasn't claiming Yamato was yonko level. Do you even know what it is you're arguing? We were discussing whether or not rooftop Luffy was a yonko.




Shunsuiju said:


> how are you blaming me for taking your posts at face value and not assuming you'll change your opinion in a few minutes?


I _didn't_ change my opinion. If there was something you didn't understand you could have asked instead of lying and putting words in my mouth. You've already demonstrated you aren't good at reading by creating a thread with a poll question that I didn't ask for (despite literally posting what I said in the thread) so it would seem the person with bad communication is you.




Shunsuiju said:


> its good for tanking damage and he got incapacitated by one attack from oden


Your point? Kaido ran a gauntlet for 50 chapters including a slash from Zoro probably equal if not better than odens. You can either chalk it up to Kaido being unprepared or that he has vastly improved since then. Either way, his feats put him above marineford WB.


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## Turrin (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> We don't know how WB would destroy the world. We don't know if he would do that with the same kind of quake's he showed at marineford but simply on a larger scale or if its with a chain reaction, damaging the core, creating tsunamis to simply flood the earth, using an awakening ability he didn't show, etc. We *don't* know. So you can't deduce from the feats at marineford that he must be capable of doing the same exact thing but on a bigger scale.
> 
> I never made any claims either way regarding his sickness, I'm simply asking you for evidence that his condition is why he couldn't use AP. Me asking a question is not me making a claim Turrin! I didn't say that you said this was "definitely" the case either, but if you're going to speculate that his sickness and injuries is why he couldn't, that speculation should be based on something substantial.
> 
> ...


1) I’ve told you multiple times you can’t hide behind “don’t know” when you haven’t presented any logical alternative. Just saying “chain reaction” or “awakening” and not offering any idea for how these could work without requiring greater force then what WB showed at MF is not a sufficient refutation.

2) This isn’t a question: _“Either teach and Akainu are planet level or WB can't use planet level AP in battle.”_ That is you making a claim that ether X (Akainu and Teach are Planetary) or Y (WB can’t use Planetary AP) is true. You therefore have the burden to prove that only X or Y can be true. I am simply saying there are other options like Z (WB was weakened). If other options exist your claim that it can only be ether X or Y is refuted, unless you can prove Z wrong

3) Now if your asking me to validate whether Z *could be *true based on something substantial. Well that’s easy enough. We know WB sickness had a massive effect on him physically and this effected his combat abilities:

That alone is enough to conclude WB DF abilities could also be effected. But it’s also been stated and shown that some, if not all DF require stamina for their usage:

And the more extreme the usage the more stamina they require 

This is enough to conclude that WB’s World ending quake could require an amount of stamina WB no longer had due to injuries, sickness, and general fighting depleting his stamina prior to engaging Teach and Akainu.

4) Okay then if by suppress your simply are asking me how they can avoid damaging the planet I feel as if I answered this with my example I gave you.

But to use your own example for simplifying now If Doffy was hit with King Kong Gun upwards this would have dealt no damage to the city, so angle of attack is the way that One Piece characters can avoid damaging the planet with their attacks. This would be true of planetary scale attacks too.


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## Shunsuiju (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Yes I know the difference. The way I interpret sky splitting scenes is that Oda is telling us those characters are yonko level. You are free to disagree.
> 
> You are also free to answer my question instead of dodging it.


Personally i think that was just showcasing luffys coc was now at their level, but it had nothing to do with physical stats.

im sorry, which one?


MrAnalogies said:


> I never denied someone below yonko level could stall a yonko. But I wasn't claiming Yamato was yonko level. Do you even know what it is you're arguing? We were discussing whether or not rooftop Luffy was a yonko.


you used luffy fighting a yonko as proof he was yonko level. i gave you multiple other characters who also fought people on yonko level for a period of time.

if luffy was fighting on par with hybrid kaido in your eyes, then how strong is nika luffy? like twice as strong as a yonko?


MrAnalogies said:


> I _didn't_ change my opinion. If there was something you didn't understand you could have asked instead of lying and putting words in my mouth. You've already demonstrated you aren't good at reading by creating a thread with a poll question that I didn't ask for (despite literally posting what I said in the thread) so it would seem the person with bad communication is you.


i dont know what you want me to say

just stick to one position


MrAnalogies said:


> Your point? Kaido ran a gauntlet for 50 chapters including *a slash from Zoro probably equal if not better than odens*. You can either chalk it up to Kaido being unprepared or that he has vastly improved since then. Either way, his feats put him above marineford WB.


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) I’ve told you multiple times you can’t hide behind “don’t know” when you haven’t presented any logical alternative. Just saying “chain reaction” or “awakening” and not offering any idea for how these could work without requiring greater force then what WB showed at MF is not a sufficient refutation.
> 
> 2) This isn’t a question: _“Either teach and Akainu are planet level or WB can't use planet level AP in battle.”_ That is you making a claim that ether X (Akainu and Teach are Planetary) or Y (WB can’t use Planetary AP) is true. You therefore have the burden to prove that only X or Y can be true. I am simply saying there are other options like Z (WB was weakened). If other options exist your claim that it can only be ether X or Y is refuted, unless you can prove Z wrong
> 
> ...


1) I have given you *multiple* examples for how he could end the world and you just kept saying nope. Multiple people even agreed with me. The bottom line is we don't know how he'd do it and we don't know for sure if the answer is him simply using the same attacks in MF but bigger. 

2) those weren't claims they were me analyzing what's in the manga to explain why your claim doesn't make a lot of sense. I wasn't claiming tech and Akainu were planet level, I'm saying if WB could use planet level AP yet they survived they would have to be planet level. That's how durability works. Since we know WB was bloodlusted and his attacks weren't even continent level let alone planet, the _safest assumption _is that he can't actually attack people with planet level power. 

3) yes, that _could_ be the case that WB didn't use planet level AP due to sickness and injuries. You actually made a good point here with some evidence, thank Allah. There are some major issues with that. Healthy Prime WB fought people like Roger without holding back either. No planet was destroyed and Roger definitely didn't have planet level durability either. You're kind of opening up Pandora's box.

4) so the only way WB can use full power is with uppercuts and launching people into the air? This is your explanation? 

You still haven't shown any evidence the damage suppression works the same as in DBZ


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Personally i think that was just showcasing *luffys coc was now at their level,* but it had nothing to do with physical stats.
> 
> im sorry, which one?


So according to YOU, Luffy's haki is yonko level but he _isn't_ yonko level? Luffy can trade blows with a yonko, even making them bleed, but _isn't_ yonko level? Luffy gets a yonko to admit he hasn't been in a *serious fight* in ages but Luffy _isn't_ yonko level???





I give up!


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## Perrin (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> So according to YOU, Luffy's haki is yonko level but he _isn't_ yonko level? Luffy can trade blows with a yonko, even making them bleed, but _isn't_ yonko level? Luffy gets a yonko to admit he hasn't been in a *serious fight* in ages but Luffy _isn't_ yonko level???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Flip it on its head.
Maybe he doesn’t think Kaidou is Yonko level

Reactions: Funny 2


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Flip it on its head.
> Maybe he doesn’t think Kaidou is Yonko level


That's the only explanation that makes sense for this insane debate.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perrin (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> That's the only explanation that makes sense for this insane debate.


Welp, thers ur answer


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## Shunsuiju (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> So according to YOU, Luffy's haki is yonko level but he _isn't_ yonko level? Luffy can trade blows with a yonko, even making them bleed, but _isn't_ yonko level? Luffy gets a yonko to admit he hasn't been in a *serious fight* in ages but Luffy _isn't_ yonko level???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


luffys conquerors haki is on yonko level, yes

you ok?


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## Perrin (May 22, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> luffys conquerors haki is on yonko level, yes
> 
> you ok?


You could have been a hero and said kaido was below yonkou level


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## Shunsuiju (May 22, 2022)

Perrin said:


> You could have been a hero and said kaido was below yonkou level


kaido is the weakest yonko

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Perrin (May 22, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> kaido is the weakest yonko


Y- level

Reactions: Funny 2


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

So class, what did we learn today?  


Whitebeard's attacks are literally planet level, he just can't use them in battle.

Kaido went all out against Oden

Luffy has yonko level haki and gave a yonko a serious fight, but he _isn't_ yonko level.

Kaido is the strongest creature in the world, but the weakest yonko.

I have blue balls after looking but not being allowed to touch.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Shunsuiju (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> So class, what did we learn today?
> 
> 
> Whitebeard's attacks are literally planet level, he just can't use them in battle.
> ...

Reactions: Funny 4


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

You contradicted yourself. There wasn't anything else for me to say.


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## Perrin (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> So class, what did we learn today?
> 
> 
> Whitebeard's attacks are literally planet level, he just can't use them in battle.
> ...


Never has so much been conceded in so short a post.


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## Shunsuiju (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> You contradicted yourself. There wasn't anything else for me to say.


we made it to 14 pages together

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> we made it to 14 pages together

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 22, 2022)

put on dark mode


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> put on dark mode


 I drink white coffee, drive a white car, and wear white shirts. The last thing I need is to stare at a dark screen when I want to relax.


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## Shunsuiju (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> I drink white coffee, drive a white car, and wear white shirts. The last thing I need is to stare at a dark screen when I want to relax.


i see


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## Mihawk (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Pirate king is a level of achievement due to finding the One Piece, it has nothing to do with power.


It has a _lot _to do with power.

Once again, Roger's Haki allowed him to conquer the seas. Without that and his strength, he would've never sniffed the PK title.


MrAnalogies said:


> Whitebeard was still wsm after Roger became pirate king.


Because he was just that special, and had no interest in being Pirate King. He could have. Also, WB was the only man whose strength was portrayed to be equal to Roger's.


MrAnalogies said:


> Even buggy could be pirate king if he managed to survive to the end of the new world and had all the poneglyphs needed.


No he can't lol.

And even if he does, anyone with common sense and half a brain would be able to deduce that he is a false one.


MrAnalogies said:


> Xebec possibly being above yonko level doesn't prove there is some imaginary pirate king level since...he was never pirate king. All it proves was that at some point there was a guy who might have been stronger than your average yonko and that still wouldn't prove Oden doesn't belong on the plateau with the others.


Xebec was said to have been perhaps Roger's greatest foe and obstacle. He was a conqueror of conquerors considering he led a crew of 5 would be Yonko.

There is no "imaginary" pirate king level. Fans denying that it doesn't exist are writing their own head canon. If Xebec is above Yonko level, and Roger/WB are also on that level with him along with someone like Garp...then there is a level that exists beyond the Yonko.



MrAnalogies said:


> I honestly don't even know what this means here. He knows, met, and *presumably* clashed with basically every top tier in the series and still praised Oden. Unless I'm missing something, pointing this out doesn't help your case. It also doesn't help that during the gear 5 fight, kaido thought to himself nobody can take me down while shanks, big mom, Garp, mihawk, etc were all alive. He thinks they're all inferior to him in a fight to the death and that's why he wants to fight joyboy.



Yeah presumably. There's literally no indicator that he even met every top tier in the series, other than those 5 and Big Mom.

I pointed it out because I'm saying that Oda has shown or highlighted his interactions/connections with those figures, and that's why he brings them up as people capable of fighting him. My point is that doesn't necessarily mean that all of those guys were stronger than everyone that he never bothered listing...otherwise, it would cause problems as taking Oden's inclusion in favour of other signs ends up dismissing the fact that: Garp and Roger nearly killed each other countiess times; Shiki drew with Roger in Ed War; Big Mom herself stalemated Kaido; Rayleigh was placed in the same breath as WB by Garp; Garp and Sengoku were placed in the same category as Roger by WB of all people, and so on and so forth.

I'm not willing to say that Kaido is any more credible than the above figures, and the inclusion of Oden shouldn't override all of the above.



MrAnalogies said:


> I wasn't dying on a hill defending the term yonko level.


Alright then.


MrAnalogies said:


> I was just saying if that's what people use to refer to individuals who can hang with yonko it would require lots of mental gymnastics and dishonesty to claim Oden is well below that category.


I don't necessarily agree with them though.

By my definition, the Admirals can fight on par and "hang with" the Yonko. However, I don't have them on the same level (at least not pre-skip).

Also, Oden never fought on par with a member of their ilk. Could Oden have become Yonko level if he hadn't died? Yes, I certainly believe so; and I believe that's the potential that Kaido was alluding to.

To clarify: Where we potentially disagree _isn't_ that Oden couldn't have reached Yonko level. It's that he never did and wasn't on that level when we last saw him alive. It's like if Mihawk fought Shanks in legendary duels when they were young, and then proceeded to get killed by someone 20 years before the current story, and I said Mihawk was Yonko level when he last fought a younger Shanks. Not an exactly perfect analogy, but you get the point.



MrAnalogies said:


> I never said they're all on the _exact_ same level. Im saying kaido himself is a certain level (yonko tier) and has the title of strongest on earth but those 5 gave him the roughest battles. Kaido stated only the absolute strongest can use advanced conqueror's haki and the first time Luffy actually did significant damage to Kaido was when he used that form of haki. The manga basically confirmed in a roundabout way Oden is either within that same tier or just a hair shy of it since he both had the haki and mortally wounded a yonko. Narratively, there's really no way to avoid this.


The manga confirmed that Oden had the tools to injure and fight Kaido on even footing yes.

It never confirmed he was on the same level as those guys, and since you seem to acknowledge this I think we are in agreement.


MrAnalogies said:


> How can you stand up to a top tier as an "equal" but there is no possibility that the character could potentially fuck up said top tier? I wasn't saying shanks would definitely win, that's not what I want either btw.


Well then perhaps I misinterpreted your definition of "fuck up", since I assumed you were implying that Shanks would win or wreck him.



MrAnalogies said:


> The right hand of the pirate king doesn't need to be yonko level.


The Yonko don't need to be as strong as the Pirate King either.


MrAnalogies said:


> None of the commanders we've seen are, not even king whose the right hand of the wsm.


Rayleigh in his prime =/= King or Marco or any Yonko first mate.

He was not a mere Commander, but someone who could stalemate an Admiral over 20 odd years past his prime.



MrAnalogies said:


> Mihawk himself said trying to become pirate king is more dangerous and difficult than the wss title. Again, I'm just playing devil's advocate if we're going to go down the route of using hype and quotes.


Didn't you say that the title of Pirate King was just an accomplishment though? 

Cause if we're gonna go down this route, the path to becoming WSS doesn't require assembling an entire crew capable of rivalling some of the strongest armadas in history. Becoming WSS doesn't require taking massive territories and defeating not 1, not 2, not 3, but potentially all 4 Yonko and some of the Admirals while taking their poneglyphs and navigating the entire Grand Line. Becoming WSS simply means being strong enough to defeat Mihawk. So yes of course, the path to becoming PK is more dangerous and difficult. If someone's goal was to become WSM or WSC, it would also be theoretically easier than becoming PK. You just have to beat whoever has the title.

And I'm not sure why there's any point in bringing this up considering that I never claimed Mihawk was on Roger's level. Furthermore, Oden doesn't have either the WSS or PK title anyways.



MrAnalogies said:


> Oden got stronger after fighting Roger, and Oden was off guard when kaido hit him. It's also a very rushed moment in the flash back just like how Kaido's own flash back was very sloppy and poorly handled. Unless it's the straw hats, Oda rarely shows extended fight scenes. I mean, we literally have the most legendary fight in the series Roger vs WB and Oda cuts it extremely short.


We can't assume anything from anything that Oda doesn't show though.

As for Oden, yes he was off guard and yes he did get stronger after fighting Roger. But again, Kaido wasn't in his prime back then and he didn't use Hybrid form or any of his strongest attacks. You yourself acknowledged this and the fact that the result of the fight was left ambiguous.

If Oden was Yonko levelled, that fight wouldn't be the reason or indicator for why he was .


MrAnalogies said:


> *But to cut him that badly in the first place he would need to be either yonko level *or damn near it because no character well below yonko level can heavily damage or fight evenly with one. That's the elephant in the room.


The elephant in the room for Oden's feat was that it was replicated by Zoro who left a similar sized or even larger permanent scar on a far stronger version of Kaido (who was in Hybrid form no less).



MrAnalogies said:


> I'm sharing Kaido's quote about advanced conqueror's haki combined with all the other evidence is hard to dismiss without mental gymnastics (how high is your ceiling quite, Oden injuring the most durable character in the series, etc).


It doesn't require mental gymnastics.

You made the claim that Kaido's quote of it being possessed by the absolute strongest is irrefutable evidence that Oden is on that level because it can be used in conjunction with a number of other elements (high high is your ceiling) that allow us to infer this. If that's the leeway we're allowed to use, I can easily make the same claim for someone like Mihawk; whose disciple unlocked Conqueror's Haki and whose dream of being WSS is a "kingly ambition" referred to by King, and that being in possession of a "World's Strongest" title is as good an indicator of being one of "the absolute strongest in the world", and etc. etc.

But that's not what I'm disagreeing with. I understand Kaido's quote very well. It's just the argument of what we're picking and choosing again. To clarify, I do think Oden had a ceiling of Yonko level. After all, he was WB's 2nd division Commander and an elite member of the Roger Pirates. He was only 39 years old when he died too...logic dictates he would've continued to improve. However, as for Haki:

I demonstrated to you that: 1) Rayleigh made the same claim about Future Sight; and 2) Yamato and Zoro have Advanced Conqueror's Haki despite being nowhere near the strongest.

So for this argument to be used as consistently admissible, you'd either have to: admit that Katakuri is among the very/absolute strongest characters in the series _or_ say he's an anomaly which would be going against Rayleigh's statement, _and/or_ admit that Zoro/Yamato are somehow the among the absolute strongest characters in the series over those whom haven't shown this ability, or simply admit it's hyperbole rather than gospel.

So it's not really mental gymnastics when these are things the manga has told and shown us too. Are Katakuri and Zoro/Yamato among the absolute strongest characters in the series up there with the likes of Oden/Roger/Xebec/WB/Shanks?? Or is the logic of taking one scene out of context and applying it over everything else flawed?

Or perhaps we just have to distinct the fact that having ADv. CoC alone doesn't put you on the same level as Roger/WB/Xebec. Considering the fact that Yamato admitted she was unable to match Thunder Bagua, and Zoro only just awakened this ability. There's also Roger's Haki being acknowledged as the greatest...so there's reason to believe that Oden's might not have been equal or comparable to the best. 



MrAnalogies said:


> Was it ever stated when kaido became a yonko?


Oden told him to become much stronger at the time of his death.


MrAnalogies said:


> I meant that he compared him to Roger by remembering Oden at the same time. Again, Arlong and Lucci.


Yeah that's fine.


MrAnalogies said:


> Two of them defeated a yonko and one managed to heavily wound one with several broken bones on the verge of death. By next arc it's likely they'll be full blown yonko level but that's just my speculation.



Fair enough.


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## Turrin (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> 1) I have given you *multiple* examples for how he could end the world and you just kept saying nope. Multiple people even agreed with me. The bottom line is we don't know how he'd do it and we don't know for sure if the answer is him simply using the same attacks in MF but bigger.
> 
> 2) those weren't claims they were me analyzing what's in the manga to explain why your claim doesn't make a lot of sense. I wasn't claiming tech and Akainu were planet level, I'm saying if WB could use planet level AP yet they survived they would have to be planet level. That's how durability works. Since we know WB was bloodlusted and his attacks weren't even continent level let alone planet, the _safest assumption _is that he can't actually attack people with planet level power.
> 
> ...


1) I didn’t ask for an example. I ask for an explanation of how said examples work without requiring WB Quakes to have greater force then what was shown at MF. If you can’t give one, then just admit it and concede the argument.

2) I agree he couldn’t use planet AP in that circumstance, but the issue is your still making the same claim: _“I'm saying *if* WB *could use planet level* AP yet they survived they would have to be planet level.”_

That if he couldn’t use Planet AP *there* he couldn’t use Planet AP in *any circumstance*.

3) How do you know Roger didn’t have Planetary AP to counter balance WB’s attacks or could cancel out his DF powers with his extreme Haki. Since you are for sure making that claim, I would like to see evidence of that.

4) That’s one angle where he could use it. Or if both him and his enemy were air-born. Or possibly with the right angle on the land.  Or if he was against an enemy that was strong enough to cancel out most of that AP, so it didn’t do enough damage to the planet to destroy it.


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> It has a _lot _to do with power.
> 
> Once again, Roger's Haki allowed him to conquer the seas. Without that and his strength, he would've never sniffed the PK title.


Let's say that's true. That to becoming pirate king you absolutely have to meet a certain threshold of power. There were still 2, potentially as many as 4 characters stronger than Roger after he got the title. One of them was his own rival WB who was wsm. He literally needed Garps help to defeat Xebec. Depending on how you interpret things, kaido and big mom also throw a monkey wrench in their due to he wsc title and Roger allegedly stealing BMs poneglyph instead of facing her head on. Then there's characters like Kong and Imu looming over the EOS tier lists. You don't need to be the strongest pirate, let alone the strongest in the world, to be pirate king. 

There is no such thing as pirate king tier. Nothing in the manga stated he became stronger _after_ finding the One piece and you do not need to gain additional strength than what you already have in the new world to find the four poneglyphs. Without the voice of all things or an archeologist, it doesn't matter if you can be can press Zunisha, you're not making it to Raftel.




Mihawk said:


> Because he was just that special, and had no interest in being Pirate King. He could have. Also, WB was the only man whose strength was portrayed to be equal to Roger's.


But that isn't true as Roger considered Garp, Sengoku, Shiki, and Xebec to all be worthy rivals of his who brought him to the bring of death. I don't get why people insist on repeating this idea only WB fought equally with Roger when it simply isn't true according to Roger himself. 



There's an awful lot of characters that qualify for the so called mythical "pirate king" sub tier. 




Mihawk said:


> No he can't lol.
> 
> And even if he does, anyone with common sense and half a brain would be able to deduce that he is a false one.


The pirate king is the one who reaches the final island and claims the one piece for himself. With enough finesse and lick, buggy absolutely could do it. You do realize that both Roger and Luffy caught a hell of a lot of lucky breaks themselves? The storm that destroyed Shikis fleet? Luffy meeting up with Robin? Etc?




Mihawk said:


> Xebec was said to have been perhaps Roger's greatest foe and obstacle. He was a conqueror of conquerors considering he led a crew of 5 would be Yonko.
> 
> There is no "imaginary" pirate king level. Fans denying that it doesn't exist are writing their own head canon. If Xebec is above Yonko level, and Roger/WB are also on that level with him along with someone like Garp...then there is a level that exists beyond the Yonko.


Pirate king level is literally a fan made head cannon term and I have demonstrated above why you have to take such a thing with a huge pile of salt. It is NOT the same as world's strongest man or world's strongest swordsman/sniper/etc where you can directly measure fighting ability and power compared to other people within your area of expertise. 

We have _no clue_ what xebecs abilities were or _how_ he convinced multiple yonko level guys to follow him. Could have bribed them with riches (there's actually evidence of this given WB and captain John's motivations). Could have just been incredibly charismatic. Could have had a broken ass ability like law. Could have been a con artist like buggy. Could have been a truly powerful juggernaut of a pirate. We don't know. Anything beyond a generous yonko level+ is heading into pure speculation head cannon territory.

Roger and Garp were *not* depicted as being on his level in terms of power levels. You don't team up with a mortal enemy to take down 1 guy if you're as strong as that one guy individually. Xebec also might have been back stabbed or threw the fight for all we know given how many times the manga suggests there was in fighting within his crew or that he may be licking his wounds and plotting. 



Mihawk said:


> Yeah presumably. There's literally no indicator that he even met every top tier in the series, other than those 5 and Big Mom.


Uh...how many other top tiers are there? I mean who did he miss...Sengoku? He probably either met or witnessed him fighting as well since Sengoku seems to know so much about GV and may have been there. Like seriously, which top tiers has kaido not directly fought or seen fight for sure? Do you think he never met any admirals the dozens of times he fought the Marines? He definitely saw the Marineford war at least. There's nobody else. 




Mihawk said:


> pointed it out because I'm saying that Oda has shown or highlighted his interactions/connections with those figures, and that's why he brings them up as people capable of fighting him. My point is that doesn't necessarily mean that all of those guys were stronger than everyone that he never bothered listing...otherwise, it would cause problems as taking Oden's inclusion in favour of other signs ends up dismissing the fact that: Garp and Roger nearly killed each other countiess times; Shiki drew with Roger in Ed War; Big Mom herself stalemated Kaido; Rayleigh was placed in the same breath as WB by Garp; Garp and Sengoku were placed in the same category as Roger by WB of all people, and so on and so forth.


There isn't a conflict of interest here. Maybe he simply did not directly fight Garp. God valley was clearly a very chaotic event and we know for a fact Garp was fighting Xebec. But he must have witnessed Garp fighting. It doesn't mean he thinks Oden is stronger than Garp either. But I find it absolutely impossible Kaido didn't watch a battle as pivotal as Garp vs Xebec and I'm sure he's seen Shiki fight as a crewmate. 

The point being kaido has a rough ballpark idea of how powerful the majority of the top tiers are and has clashed with many of them himself. Over entire decades, against the absolute best. And Oden still impressed him. How people can write that off is baffling to me.




Mihawk said:


> To clarify: Where we potentially disagree _isn't_ that Oden couldn't have reached Yonko level. It's that he never did and wasn't on that level when we last saw him alive. It's like if Mihawk fought Shanks in legendary duels when they were young, and then proceeded to get killed by someone 20 years before the current story, and I said Mihawk was Yonko level when he last fought a younger Shanks. Not an exactly perfect analogy, but you get the point.


I perfectly understand what you're saying, but we're going in circles because I find it impossible for Oden to not at least be borderline yonko level to damage the most durable character in the series who is also a yonko with a world renowned reputation for being terrifying 1v1. It just doesn't add up. Luffy defeated two commanders in while cake island. TWO. And yet he was splattered by Kaido with 1 bagua despite a spirited effort. This *strongly* suggest Oden was too strong to be labeled commander level. Even if you think he wasn't quite yonko level, where the hell else can be fit except just shy of yonko level given the *drastic* difference between Luffy vs Kaido and Oden vs Kaido? 

This is exactly why I hate all these tedious tier lists convos. I would bet my left testicle Oda didn't think of how this all fit together when writing the story. All he cared about was showing a hero from wano showing off a cool new form of haki and to give much needed characterization to Kaido. The fact Oden was pictured with so many other top tiers suggests to me that Oda obviously holds him in very high regard power wise. I don't see why we have to dissect it any further, but that's just me.




Mihawk said:


> The manga confirmed that Oden had the tools to injure and fight Kaido on even footing yes.
> 
> It never confirmed he was on the same level as those guys, and since you seem to acknowledge this I think we are in agreement.


I agree he wasn't on equal footing with them. Where we disagree is how far he was to those other guys pictured. Is it < or <<< or <<<<<< ? A case can be made for the middle option, but I think the latter is extremely difficult to justify without mental gymnastics. 



Mihawk said:


> The Yonko don't need to be as strong as the Pirate King either.


They better be damn near close or they're not going to be able to live as kings in the most dangerous and most powerful ocean in the series with the Marines scared to declare war on them. Law explicitly stated the iron clad rule of the new world is that you either dethrone a yonko or die. Individually, their haki is enough to split the sky which could be Odas way of saying you have to reach a certain threshold of strength. Remember, Luffy and Blackbeard didn't get their titles until they defeated powerful pirates. 




Mihawk said:


> Rayleigh in his prime =/= King or Marco or any Yonko first mate.
> 
> He was not a mere Commander, but someone who could stalemate an Admiral over 20 odd years past his prime.


Kizaru is all over the place. He pretends to be scared of Beckman but tries to attack whitebeard immediately with no back up? He wastes time asking supernova 50x weaker than him if they've ever been kicked at the speed of light. He shoots at buggy and misses on purpose just to scare him. Who knows how much effort he really made against Rayleigh. No doubt Raleigh's strong but I don't think he'd be casually curb stomping the 3 current admirals even in his prime.





Mihawk said:


> Didn't you say that the title of Pirate King was just an accomplishment though?


I said i was playing devil's advocate to show how wonky tier discussions can get. Pretending to downplay mihawk.




Mihawk said:


> As for Oden, yes he was off guard and yes he did get stronger after fighting Roger. But again, Kaido wasn't in his prime back then and he didn't use Hybrid form or any of his strongest attacks. You yourself acknowledged this and the fact that the result of the fight was left ambiguous.
> 
> If Oden was Yonko levelled, that fight wouldn't be the reason or indicator for why he was .


It depends on how much stronger Kaido has gotten since then and when he got his wsc title. 




Mihawk said:


> The elephant in the room for Oden's feat was that it was replicated by Zoro who left a similar sized or even larger permanent scar on a far stronger version of Kaido (who was in Hybrid form no less).


Well my counter to that is that Kaido said only the absolute strongest can use advanced conqueror's haki in the first place and Big mom got scared and told kaido to dodge a slash on the rooftop. My take from that is that Zoro probably isn't "way" below yonko level either at this point. 

Because just like the Oden discussion, my question is how the bloody hell did he and Zoro come close to potentially killing a yonko if they're nowhere near that level? No amount of luck or being caught off guard would allow for Ax hand Morgan to defeat Arlong, or for Bellamy to defeat Enel, or for Hodi to defeat Doffy. _When there's that much of a gap in power and ability, things like Oden/Zoro coming close to defeating Kaido simply don't happen._



Mihawk said:


> So it's not really mental gymnastics when these are things the manga has told and shown us too. Are Katakuri and Zoro/Yamato among the absolute strongest characters in the series up there with the likes of Oden/Roger/Xebec/WB/Shanks?? Or is the logic of taking one scene out of context and applying it over everything else flawed?


What exactly am I taking out of context? The scene is pretty self explanatory. 




Mihawk said:


> Oden told him to become much stronger at the time of his death.


This isn't proof he wasn't a yonko at the time. All it proves is that Kaido has gotten stronger since then.


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) I didn’t ask for an example. I ask for an explanation of how said examples work without requiring WB Quakes to have greater force then what was shown at MF. If you can’t give one, then just admit it and concede the argument.
> 
> 2) I agree he couldn’t use planet AP in that circumstance, but the issue is your still making the same claim: _“I'm saying *if* WB *could use planet level* AP yet they survived they would have to be planet level.”_
> 
> ...


1) I gave you several explanations and you either ignored them or said nope. But since you keep begging I'll give you one more possibility: A shockwave he sends to the Earth's core triggering it to create a chain reaction causing all the tectonic plates to collapse. That would effectively destroy the planet or at least end all life on earth without him literally having planet level AP. And no, WB would not be required to literally have planet level AP to do that. Not even close.

2) I'm saying if a blood lusted WB seeing red didn't use planet level AP it's a reasonable assumption to say he simply couldn't. That's just common sense. By definition a blood lusted character isn't holding anything back and is going all out with their power. A blood lusted character isn't making sure they don't harm people around them or caring about the environment.

And if he was using planet level AP on teach and Akainu, then yes, the *only* way they could survive is if they had planet level durability. These are very simple common sense conclusions to reach.

3) Now you're asking me for proof Roger _didn't_ have planet level AP...? You made something up and then you ask me to prove it's not the case?



4) I'm still waiting for you to show me a single sentence or panel indicating OP characters have DBZ level ki control to suppress their attacks and not destroy the planet.

This is you right now:


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## Turrin (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> 1) I gave you several explanations and you either ignored them or said nope. But since you keep begging I'll give you one more possibility: A shockwave he sends to the Earth's core triggering it to create a chain reaction causing all the tectonic plates to collapse. That would effectively destroy the planet or at least end all life on earth without him literally having planet level AP. And no, WB would not be required to literally have planet level AP to do that. Not even close.
> 
> 2) I'm saying if a blood lusted WB seeing red didn't use planet level AP it's a reasonable assumption to say he simply couldn't. That's just common sense. By definition a blood lusted character isn't holding anything back and is going all out with their power. A blood lusted character isn't making sure they don't harm people around them or caring about the environment.
> 
> ...


1) How would the* force of a Quake strong enough to make all the tectonic plates* collapse *not exceed the* force of the Quakes at MF? You still are not explaining the how, which is exactly what I’m asking for.

2) It’s equally reasonable to assume he couldn’t go all out due to his injuries/sickness and crew too though. That’s literally all I’m saying.

3) You got to stop shifting burden of proof. You brought up Roger, not me. Saying Roger could fight WB, and *definitely* didn’t have Planet AP. If your going to make a claim in the definitive you have to prove it.

4) I already gave you the example with Doflamingo and we were discussing that example. Now your trying to back peddle to say I’m not giving you an example again. Huh? Starting to suspect your trolling at this point; and if not then you need to offer a better explanation for what type of example you are looking for, as I already asked you do you want evidence WB can control how powerful his Quakes are or the Direction of his Quakes?


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) How would the* force of a Quake strong enough to make all the tectonic plates* collapse *not exceed the* force of the Quakes at MF? You still are not explaining the how, which is exactly what I’m asking for.
> 
> 2) It’s equally reasonable to assume he couldn’t go all out due to his injuries/sickness and crew too though. That’s literally all I’m saying.
> 
> ...


1) I did. Shockwave make core trigger, core goes berserk and makes planet go boom. The core isn't exactly stable and doesn't require planet level energies to go crazy. I never said a healthy WB can't create quakes stronger than the ones at MF. I'm disputing that he can create quakes _*millions*_ of times stronger than what's shown on panel.

2) but if he does have planet level AP and went all out he'd kill his crew and the whole planet. That's the part you refuse to admit.

3) nowhere in the manga was it stated Roger was planet level. Therefore he wasn't planet level. WB was healthy and uninjured in his prime and went all out and didn't destroy the planet. Therefore his AP isn't planet level.

4) you gave me examples but zero evidence. I didn't back peddle. I've been asking you for at least 2 entire days to show me where in the manga it says OP characters can suppress their AP to avoid damaging the environment.

If for the sake of argument they can, and WB can concentrate planet level AP into his attacks to only target his opponents, and he went all out against Roger, then Roger suddenly has planet level durability. And that doesn't make any fucking sense when kaido and Big mom are treated as absolute monsters in durability yet they are about island level.


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## Turrin (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> 1) I did. Shockwave make core trigger, core goes berserk and makes planet go boom. The core isn't exact stable and doesn't require planet level energies to go crazy.
> 
> 2) but if he does have planet level AP and went all out he'd kill his crew and the whole planet. That's the part you refuse to admit.
> 
> ...


1) Saying Shockwave makes core triggered, does not explain how a shockwave at MF level could do this. You need to show that a MF shockwave could reach the world’s core and then still have the force to trigger the core. Like what force does it even take to trigger a planet’s core, do you know??

2) I already explained how he could not destroy the planet depending on angle of attack and opposing force. You just didn’t address it and moved on last post

3) This is like saying Kaidou isn’t Island+ level in AP because nothing stated it prior to Flaming Drum Dragon. We don’t know what level Roger is because we have no clue his Peak Power until he goes all out, same as Kaidou prior to Flaming Drum Dragon.

4) And I’ve asked you for 2 whole days what you mean, and why my examples of angle of attack aren’t suitable evidence that said attacks can be used. Then We finally started talking about it and then you just stopped and back peddled to me not showing examples. Once again wtf dude.
—-
Two people can be planet level in AP for their ultimate attacks and only island level in durability; it would just mean if their ultimates landed they would kill the other person. Durability doenst need to scale to AP. So BM and Kaidou can still be >= Roger and WB in durability just much weaker in AP when it comes to their ultimates.


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) Saying Shockwave makes core triggered, does not explain how a shockwave at MF level could do this. You need to show that a MF shockwave could reach the world’s core and then still have the force to trigger the core. Like what force does it even take to trigger a planet’s core, do you know??
> 
> 2) I already explained how he could not destroy the planet depending on angle of attack and opposing force. You just didn’t address it and moved on last post
> 
> ...


1) it's manga where you can make flowers sing and dance and Mochi can become harder than steel. It wouldn't be the 100th strangest thing that happened.

2) we don't know if he can suppress a planet level attack. I've lost count of how many times I've said this.

3) terrible example. Leave the analogies to me. We know what Kaido's limits are because we've seen them. You claiming Roger is planet level is just more talking out of your ass.

4) did you know earthquakes usually go through the earth? How is wb going to create an earthquake that could potentially destroy the planet without harming any of the planet? You have no evidence he can do that.

If Big Mom and Kaido are above Roger and WB in durability and the 2 of them are island level in durability, then there is no way in fuck Roger was planet level going toe to toe with a healthy WB who had planet level AP. Roger would get splattered into atoms just from WB flicking him.


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## MrAnalogies (May 22, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Two people can be planet level in AP for their ultimate attacks and only island level in durability; it would just mean if their ultimates landed they would kill the other person. Durability doenst need to scale to AP. So BM and Kaidou can still be >= Roger and WB in durability just much weaker in AP when it comes to their ultimates.


You know what, I think you may be onto something. Maybe you're right and WB does in fact have planet level AP.


The gura fruit can destroy the world and if you eat the fruit you have planet level AP.

Teach ate the gura fruit, so Teach has planet level AP.




Kaido knows teach ate the gura fruit, and yet Kaido said nobody on the planet can take him down.



Therefore Kaido has to have at least planet+ durability since he wasn't worried about teach.

And if gear 5 Luffy knocked out Kaido, Gear 5 Luffy's AP is planet++

Which means Kaido has actually been tanking planet++ attacks for several chapters before he was finally taken down.

Which means Kaido's durability is more like planet+++, potentially even small star level!

Kaido beats the dog shit out of any version of Whitebeard.

Close the thread.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Mihawk (May 22, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Let's say that's true. That to becoming pirate king you absolutely have to meet a certain threshold of power.


Roger reached that threshold of power by being equal to the WSM even with an illness. 


MrAnalogies said:


> There were still 2, potentially as many as 4 characters stronger than Roger after he got the title.


4 characters stronger?? This is head canon of the highest order considering that goes against all of the portrayal of Roger's superiority over most of them. 


MrAnalogies said:


> One of them was his own rival WB who was wsm.


He's the only one who has an argument for being potentially "stronger", due to his title and the fact that they actually clashed equally on panel. 


MrAnalogies said:


> He literally needed Garps help to defeat Xebec.


It was actually the other way around when Sengoku revealed that Roger teamed up with Garp. 

And they cooperated to take down the Rocks pirate crew. Nothing confirms that Xebec was as strong as Garp and Roger combined. Furthermore, even if it was a 2v1 we have plenty of examples of 2v1s=/= 1=2 in terms of strength. Sengoku & Garp VS Shiki being the best example. They had to team up to defeat Shiki in Marineford. Does that mean Shiki was stronger than both or either of them? No, it doesn't. 


MrAnalogies said:


> Depending on how you interpret things, kaido and big mom also throw a monkey wrench in their due to he wsc title


Not really. 

If you interpret Kaido and Big Mom's own comments properly, you'd see the pedestal Roger is placed on. 

Kaido's WSC title has nothing to do with Roger since he was introduced with it after the timeskip...24 years after Roger died, as I already stated. 


MrAnalogies said:


> and Roger allegedly stealing BMs poneglyph instead of facing her head on.


Another translation has Roger taking it by force, so no. 

Also even if he did stealth it, it has nothing to do with Big Mom being stronger since it can just mean that Roger was smart enough not to risk a confrontation and cause casualties to his much smaller crew. It's not like Big Mom was weak, plus she has an entire Empire as well. No sense in incurring so much damage while being in her territory.


MrAnalogies said:


> Then there's characters like Kong and Imu looming over the EOS tier lists.


I have no idea what to expect from guys like Kong and Imu. Kong is a former Fleet Admiral so he's probably in the same ballpark as Garp/Sengoku. I'd like him to be strong, but Roger never mentioned him. 

Imu is literally an enigma. 


MrAnalogies said:


> You don't need to be the strongest pirate, let alone the strongest in the world, to be pirate king.


No you don't need to be. 

But Roger was the Pirate King, and he was the strongest. According to Buggy, WB was the only man who came closest and was his equal. So if Roger was equal to the man who was known as the WSM, and WB in his prime > an Old WB who stalemated the Yonko, they are both stronger than the Yonko. Simple really. 



MrAnalogies said:


> There is no such thing as pirate king tier. Nothing in the manga stated he became stronger _after_ finding the One piece and you do not need to gain additional strength than what you already have in the new world to find the four poneglyphs.


That's not my claim. Again, refer to the above. 


MrAnalogies said:


> Without the voice of all things or an archeologist, it doesn't matter if you can be can press Zunisha, you're not making it to Raftel.


Yes you need those things to reach Raftel. 

Reaching Raftel is not my argument that Roger > the Yonko though. It's his portrayal and all the other character statements that I've already provided that indicates he was stronger. 


MrAnalogies said:


> But that isn't true as Roger considered Garp, Sengoku, Shiki, and Xebec to all be worthy rivals of his who brought him to the bring of death. I don't get why people insist on repeating this idea only WB fought equally with Roger when it simply isn't true according to Roger himself.
> 
> 
> 
> There's an awful lot of characters that qualify for the so called mythical "pirate king" sub tier.



Actually I brought this up to indicate that they belonged on this level lol. 

And yes they were worthy rivals, but only WB, Garp, and perhaps Xebec can lay claim to being his equal. Again, you say that Kaido's list is proof of the strongest, but ignore the fact that he further singled out Roger of his Haki as the reason why he was able to conquer the Grand Line. According to Kaido, it had nothing to do with some archeologist or poneglyph...it has everything to do with his Haki as well. 



MrAnalogies said:


> The pirate king is the one who reaches the final island and claims the one piece for himself. With enough finesse and lick, buggy absolutely could do it. You do realize that both Roger and Luffy caught a hell of a lot of lucky breaks themselves? The storm that destroyed Shikis fleet? Luffy meeting up with Robin? Etc?



Please...there's levels to this. The idea that Buggy could ever come close to being destined for such greatness as Roger and Luffy is preposterous. 

Furthermore, disregarding strength completely from this discussion is asinine as well. Discounting strength as a qualifier for becoming Pirate king is ridiculous. It doesn't matter how lucky he gets. He's not getting enough fortune and luck to end up all the way in Raftel with all 4 Poneglyphs and a world class crew  

It's time to stop the trolling. The amount of requirements that Buggy would have to meet and fulfil, along with the amount of objectives he would have to accomplish in order to become Pirate King would be mountainous. No self-respecting pirate worthy of being a Yonko Commander would follow him. He can't beat Admirals and Yonko either, which is something both DCJ and Luffy acknowledge as being vital or required on the path to becoming Pirate King.





MrAnalogies said:


> Pirate king level is literally a fan made head cannon term and I have demonstrated above why you have to take such a thing with a huge pile of salt.


All you have demonstrated is why I should take your arguments here with a huge pile of salt, especially ever since you started using the Buggy analogy. 

I honestly respected and even agreed with some of the points you brought up, but ever since that moment along with the fact that you ignore the clear portrayal of Roger/WB > everyone else it's just become a bit frustrating. 


MrAnalogies said:


> It is NOT the same as world's strongest man or world's strongest swordsman/sniper/etc where you can directly measure fighting ability and power compared to other people within your area of expertise.



Obviously. 

But again that's not the point. Roger's level of strength just happened to be that great. He defined that level, and others such as WB/Garp/Xebec either came close or shared it with him. 



MrAnalogies said:


> We have _no clue_ what xebecs abilities were or _how_ he convinced multiple yonko level guys to follow him. Could have bribed them with riches (there's actually evidence of this given WB and captain John's motivations). Could have just been incredibly charismatic. Could have had a broken ass ability like law. Could have been a con artist like buggy. Could have been a truly powerful juggernaut of a pirate. We don't know. Anything beyond a generous yonko level+ is heading into pure speculation head cannon territory.



And bringing up Kong and Imu while calling them stronger than Roger isn't "pure speculation head cannon territory"??? 

At least in Xebec's case, we have a solid statement from Sengoku that suggests he was perhaps Roger's greatest foe. Please bro, you don't become the greatest obstacle for the future would be Pirate King and a captain of 4 future Emperors by being some one trick pony or con artist like Buggy. You need an insane level of strength. We _know _he was a truly powerful juggernaut of a pirate because multiple sources confirmed that he was just that infamous. 

And if we both agree that he was beyond the Yonko then I don't see what we're arguing about other than the degree by which he is stronger.  



MrAnalogies said:


> Roger and Garp were *not* depicted as being on his level in terms of power levels. You don't team up with a mortal enemy to take down 1 guy if you're as strong as that one guy individually.


It was never stated that Roger and Garp took down Xebec together. They teamed up to take down the Rocks Pirates. 

Furthermore, Sengoku and Garp took down Shiki in a 2v1 as well. Shiki isn't stronger than both. 



MrAnalogies said:


> Xebec also might have been back stabbed or threw the fight for all we know given how many times the manga suggests there was in fighting within his crew or that he may be licking his wounds and plotting.


And for all we know the other fighters like Shiki/WB/BM/Kaido/Captain John/Ochoku/Silver Axe could've also fought in GV and clashed with Roger or Garp. So many variables...

Also, Roger and Garp might not have even been in their primes, considering Roger became Pirate King well over a decade _after _the God Valley incident....so even if it was a 2v1 it doesn't mean Xebec wasn't matched or surpassed by Roger by the time the latter became PK as well. 



MrAnalogies said:


> Uh...how many other top tiers are there? I mean who did he miss...Sengoku? He probably either met or witnessed him fighting as well since Sengoku seems to know so much about GV and may have been there. Like seriously, which top tiers has kaido not directly fought or seen fight for sure? Do you think he never met any admirals the dozens of times he fought the Marines?


Sengoku never said he was there, so we don't know if he was. Garp was there but wasn't included in spite of being Roger's nigh equal so that's strange. 

Nothing in the manga suggests he ever met and fought Mihawk, Akainu, Dragon, or Teach.

His flashback pretty much put an end to the idea that he met and fought Admirals considering it was never shown and he had himself imprisoned on purpose.




MrAnalogies said:


> He definitely saw the Marineford war at least. There's nobody else.


He didn't make it to Marineford because Shanks stopped him. That's probably a big reason why he included Shanks in his list too...


MrAnalogies said:


> There isn't a conflict of interest here. Maybe he simply did not directly fight Garp. God valley was clearly a very chaotic event and we know for a fact Garp was fighting Xebec. But he must have witnessed Garp fighting. It doesn't mean he thinks Oden is stronger than Garp either. But I find it absolutely impossible Kaido didn't watch a battle as pivotal as Garp vs Xebec and I'm sure he's seen Shiki fight as a crewmate.


Then we can agree here.



MrAnalogies said:


> The point being kaido has a rough ballpark idea of how powerful the majority of the top tiers are and has clashed with many of them himself. Over entire decades, against the absolute best. And Oden still impressed him. How people can write that off is baffling to me.


Okay that's fair. 


MrAnalogies said:


> I perfectly understand what you're saying, but we're going in circles because I find it impossible for Oden to not at least be borderline yonko level to damage the most durable character in the series who is also a yonko with a world renowned reputation for being terrifying 1v1. It just doesn't add up. Luffy defeated two commanders in while cake island. TWO. And yet he was splattered by Kaido with 1 bagua despite a spirited effort. This *strongly* suggest Oden was too strong to be labeled commander level. Even if you think he wasn't quite yonko level, where the hell else can be fit except just shy of yonko level given the *drastic* difference between Luffy vs Kaido and Oden vs Kaido?


Yes we're going in circles and I don't think we disagree that much. 

I think Oden was below that level but still good enough to give any Yonko a good fight. And yes, he was well above most Commanders. 


MrAnalogies said:


> This is exactly why I hate all these tedious tier lists convos. I would bet my left testicle Oda didn't think of how this all fit together when writing the story. All he cared about was showing a hero from wano showing off a cool new form of haki and to give much needed characterization to Kaido. The fact Oden was pictured with so many other top tiers suggests to me that Oda obviously holds him in very high regard power wise. I don't see why we have to dissect it any further, but that's just me.


Fair enough. 


MrAnalogies said:


> I agree he wasn't on equal footing with them. Where we disagree is how far he was to those other guys pictured. Is it < or <<< or <<<<<< ? A case can be made for the middle option, but I think the latter is extremely difficult to justify without mental gymnastics.


Yeah then again we seem to have found common ground and agree. I don't think those guys stomp Oden; I just don't think he was on their level. 



MrAnalogies said:


> They better be damn near close or they're not going to be able to live as kings in the most dangerous and most powerful ocean in the series with the Marines scared to declare war on them. Law explicitly stated the iron clad rule of the new world is that you either dethrone a yonko or die. Individually, their haki is enough to split the sky which could be Odas way of saying you have to reach a certain threshold of strength. Remember, Luffy and Blackbeard didn't get their titles until they defeated powerful pirates.


They're the next best thing to it in the New World, and the frontline contenders for Pirate King status. But the whole point is, they haven't been able to get over the hump. Yes that has a lot to do with poneglyphs, archeologists, VOAT, and more. However, there's also something separating the quality of someone like Roger from these guys, and that's either been hinted at or outright stated by characters throughout the manga. 

Also Luffy didn't deserve his Yonko title at the time that he got it. And Blackbeard most likely kept getting stronger. 


MrAnalogies said:


> Kizaru is all over the place. He pretends to be scared of Beckman but tries to attack whitebeard immediately with no back up? He wastes time asking supernova 50x weaker than him if they've ever been kicked at the speed of light. He shoots at buggy and misses on purpose just to scare him. Who knows how much effort he really made against Rayleigh. No doubt Raleigh's strong but I don't think he'd be casually curb stomping the 3 current admirals even in his prime.


I doubt anyone would be casually curb stomping 3 current admirals in their prime. The notion that anyone in the manga would be capable of soloing all 3 remains asinine at this point, and not even an idea that's worth considering at this juncture of the story. 


MrAnalogies said:


> I said i was playing devil's advocate to show how wonky tier discussions can get. Pretending to downplay mihawk.


Right, I know. 


MrAnalogies said:


> It depends on how much stronger Kaido has gotten since then and when he got his wsc title.


Yes. 


MrAnalogies said:


> Well my counter to that is that Kaido said only the absolute strongest can use advanced conqueror's haki in the first place and Big mom got scared and told kaido to dodge a slash on the rooftop.


Yes and my counter to that was that Yamato was overwhelmed by Kaido before too long and admitted inferiority, thus eliminating herself from the conversation. Zoro getting swatted aside like a baseball by TB also doesn't do him many favours in this conversation. 


MrAnalogies said:


> My take from that is that Zoro probably isn't "way" below yonko level either at this point.


The version of Zoro who left a scar on Kaido was inferior to the version of Zoro who defeated King. Neither version seem to be close to Yonko level anyways. 


MrAnalogies said:


> Because just like the Oden discussion, my question is how the bloody hell did he and Zoro come close to potentially killing a yonko if they're nowhere near that level?


Because 1) The Kaido that Oden fought may not have been anywhere near the level of a Yonko himself; and 2) Zoro didn't come close to potentially killing him at all. He left a permanent scar but couldn't bring him down. He also fought alongside multiple Supernovas and was promptly dispatched by Kaido not long after the feat. The gap was clear...that Zoro was _nowhere_ near that level. But I guess again it comes down to your definition and semantics if we disagree on this.



MrAnalogies said:


> No amount of luck or being caught off guard would allow for Ax hand Morgan to defeat Arlong, or for Bellamy to defeat Enel, or for Hodi to defeat Doffy. _When there's that much of a gap in power and ability, things like Oden/Zoro coming close to defeating Kaido simply don't happen._


I can say the same thing about your suggestion of Buggy becoming Pirate King  


MrAnalogies said:


> What exactly am I taking out of context? The scene is pretty self explanatory.


The other stuff highlighting Roger's superiority which I already stated.


MrAnalogies said:


> This isn't proof he wasn't a yonko at the time. All it proves is that Kaido has gotten stronger since then.



It's been 20 years since Oden told him to get stronger. We don't know when Kaido became a Yonko, but it certainly couldn't have been back then if he had no territories and was considered on the rise while matching up starts like Moria, when he's a peer to Big Mom and Shanks in the present.


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## Turrin (May 23, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> 1) it's manga where you can make flowers sing and dance and Mochi can become harder than steel. It wouldn't be the 100th strangest thing that happened.
> 
> 2) we don't know if he can suppress a planet level attack. I've lost count of how many times I've said this.
> 
> ...


1) Of course the characters have magic abilities. That’s how WB makes Quakes appear from his hands and shit. However you still did not answer the question of how much force is necessary to destabilize the core of a planet and show it’s only equal to the force of WB quakes at MF

2) I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve asked you what you mean by suppressed 

3) Yes we have seen Kaidou’s limits but not Roger’s. Now your making the claim that he is definitely not Planet Level. So you need to present evidence that he isn’t planet level, beyond just we haven’t seen his limits, as otherwise that’s an argument from ignorance fallacy.

I have made no claim here at all; otherwise quote me where I made that claim. 

4) Because WB can create quakes in the air, not just the earth like a normal earth quake. He quaked Aokiji in the air without effecting the earth for example:
—-
If Roger has a way to counter WB AP without needing to take the hit head on then durability doesn’t matter. We have seen many times characters fight someone who if they took the full force of their attack they would die, but they counter with their own abilities to prevent that. So this is a false equivalency on your part


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## MrAnalogies (May 23, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) Of course the characters have magic abilities. That’s how WB makes Quakes appear from his hands and shit. However you still did not answer the question of how much force is necessary to destabilize the core of a planet and show it’s only equal to the force of WB quakes at MF
> 
> 2) I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve asked you what you mean by suppressed
> 
> ...


I explained how Kaido is at least planet++. The matchup is Kaido vs WB. Address that.


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## Turrin (May 23, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> I explained how Kaido is at least planet++. The matchup is Kaido vs WB. Address that.


When did you explain that lol. And I guess you concede all the other points bruv?


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## Turrin (May 23, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> You know what, I think you may be onto something. Maybe you're right and WB does in fact have planet level AP.
> 
> 
> The gura fruit can destroy the world and if you eat the fruit you have planet level AP.
> ...


Never mind just found this post. 

Teach had just gotten the Fruit. It’s unlikely he commanded the World Destroying powers with it yet that he claimed he had; he was overestimating his abilities with the fruit which he later admitted he was still not 100% with. Otherwise you have to take him saying he’s the Strongest Seriously and if that’s the case he’s also over Kaidou.

Kaidou also was overestimating his abilities because he did get taken down by Luffy.
—-
Now can you please stop with nonsense deflection arguments to avoid conceding points


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## MrAnalogies (May 23, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Roger reached that threshold of power by being equal to the WSM even with an illness.


That's impressive but it doesn't change the fact WB and potentially 2-3 other characters were stronger than Roger so obviously PK isnt a tier of strength for pirates. 




Mihawk said:


> He's the only one who has an argument for being potentially "stronger", due to his title and the fact that they actually clashed equally on panel.


The title means WB is the stronger of the two and he had it while Roger was alive. You do not need to be the exact same strength to fight evenly with someone. This is true in martial arts, shonen, and the OP story itself. 




Mihawk said:


> It was actually the other way around when Sengoku revealed that Roger teamed up with Garp.
> 
> And they cooperated to take down the Rocks pirate crew. Nothing confirms that Xebec was as strong as Garp and Roger combined. Furthermore, even if it was a 2v1 we have plenty of examples of 2v1s=/= 1=2 in terms of strength. Sengoku & Garp VS Shiki being the best example. They had to team up to defeat Shiki in Marineford. Does that mean Shiki was stronger than both or either of them? No, it doesn't.


So it's ok to bump Roger and WB up a tier based on pure hype and speculation, but the moment I sat Roger+Garp were needed to beat Xebec=Xebec was probably stronger than either one individually now I've gone too far? 




Mihawk said:


> Kaido's WSC title has nothing to do with Roger since he was introduced with it after the timeskip...24 years after Roger died, as I already stated.


There were threads discussing this. King was in so much awe of Kaido be thought he was joyboy and said he was the strongest. The Marines had become McDonald's giving Kaido happy meals. We don't know when kaido got the wsc title and if he received it while Roger was alive that's another hole in your head cannon.

I brought up BM because Roger decided to be sneaky to steal her poneglyph instead of confronting her. That's open to speculation.




Mihawk said:


> I have no idea what to expect from guys like Kong and Imu. Kong is a former Fleet Admiral so he's probably in the same ballpark as Garp/Sengoku. I'd like him to be strong, but Roger never mentioned him.
> 
> Imu is literally an enigma.


I think you're missing the point here. I'm not trying to die on a hill saying BM, Kong, Im, etc were all definitely equal to or stronger than Roger. I'm saying there's actual evidence to suggest there were literally half a dozen characters on Rogers level or higher while he was alive and held the title of pirate king. That makes the claim there's "pirate king level" very dubious at best. Im is the only one who gets a pass because the world doesn't know about their existence, but some of the characters I mentioned are actual yonko and famous. 




Mihawk said:


> But Roger was the Pirate King, and he was the strongest. According to Buggy, WB was the only man who came closest and was his equal. So if Roger was equal to the man who was known as the WSM, and WB in his prime > an Old WB who stalemated the Yonko, they are both stronger than the Yonko. Simple really.


We both know this isn't true and buggy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about since Roger admitted multiple characters were his equal and have him tough fights. You yourself brought up how Shiki took on Garp and Sengokus at the same time, but you expect me to believe Roger was in a tier of his own compared to Shiki?






Mihawk said:


> Reaching Raftel is not my argument that Roger > the Yonko though. It's his portrayal and all the other character statements that I've already provided that indicates he was stronger.


In a vacuum the statements and portrayal do suggest this, but analyzing the facts we see it simply isn't true. At best you can argue Roger was marginally stronger than your average yonko and would win high dif. 




Mihawk said:


> And yes they were worthy rivals, but only WB, Garp, and perhaps Xebec can lay claim to being his equal. Again, you say that Kaido's list is proof of the strongest, but ignore the fact that he further singled out Roger of his Haki as the reason why he was able to conquer the Grand Line. According to Kaido, it had nothing to do with some archeologist or poneglyph...it has everything to do with his Haki as wel


You left out Shiki again, amongst others. Kaido isn't saying you don't need an archeologist. If it was just about having strong haki shanks or even kaido himself would have found the OP before Luffy even got to the new world, maybe before the story even began. You DO absolutely need an archeologist or a 3 eyes tribe member to reach Raftel. You need a superb navigator, a doctor, shipwright, etc. This was emphasized all throughout east Blue and Paradise. Like I said, Roger could have been bench pressing sea king and he'd still fail without those resources. 




Mihawk said:


> Please...there's levels to this. The idea that Buggy could ever come close to being destined for such greatness as Roger and Luffy is preposterous.


Good thing I never said that then because Buggy doesn't get Oda power-up handjobs or having actual fate on his side. Buggy has had his fair share of absurd luck being able to convince level 6 infamous pirates to follow him, convincing the public he and WB were peers having a conversation to alter perception, becoming a schichibukai, etc. All that just with pure deception and misunderstandings. You had the fake Luffy doing similar things by literally just living off the name of someone else. I never said Buggy could be "destined" to reach Raftel, but based on the rules of the actual series without Oda playing favorites, yes he could potentially gather the right crew and resources to reach it. 




Mihawk said:


> Furthermore, disregarding strength completely from this discussion is asinine as well. Discounting strength as a qualifier for becoming Pirate king is ridiculous. It doesn't matter how lucky he gets. He's not getting enough fortune and luck to end up all the way in Raftel with all 4 Poneglyphs and a world class crew
> 
> It's time to stop the trolling. The amount of requirements that Buggy would have to meet and fulfil, along with the amount of objectives he would have to accomplish in order to become Pirate King would be mountainous. No self-respecting pirate worthy of being a Yonko Commander would follow him. He can't beat Admirals and Yonko either, which is something both DCJ and Luffy acknowledge as being vital or required on the path to becoming Pirate King.


If I'm trolling tell me what strength requirements are needed that Buggy couldn't fulfill? You do realize Luffy was much weaker than big mom and his crewmate brook was even weaker and they managed to steal her poneglyph and escape without being slaughtered with a bit of luck? Before you say Luffy had to defeat Katakuri, remember that Capone had a plan to assassinate BM. If that succeeded they would have escaped even quicker. There was also Laws plan to get Kaido to deal with Doffy for him. 




Mihawk said:


> I honestly respected and even agreed with some of the points you brought up, but ever since that moment along with the fact that you ignore the clear portrayal of Roger/WB > everyone else it's just become a bit frustrating.


Well the portrayal of Roger/WB > everyone isn't so clear when I have told you about half a dozen characters that might be on their level. I have only been using canon statements/feats.




Mihawk said:


> And bringing up Kong and Imu while calling them stronger than Roger isn't "pure speculation head cannon territory"???


That's the whole point. That using the same logic I can hype up completely featless characters to PK level with head cannon and speculation.




Mihawk said:


> Also, Roger and Garp might not have even been in their primes, considering Roger became Pirate King well over a decade _after _the God Valley incident....so even if it was a 2v1 it doesn't mean Xebec wasn't matched or surpassed by Roger


See now you're doing the same thing I'm doing except worse. You're adding speculation on top of speculation instead of just addressing the simplest explanation that Roger and Garp had to work together. Xebec was called his greatest for. Greatest is a timeless adjective, meaning better than anyone Roger faced past present or future.



Mihawk said:


> Nothing in the manga suggests he ever met and fought Mihawk, Akainu, Dragon, or Teach.


I never suggested that. I said he has at least seen some of them in action giving how MF was broadcasted. 



Mihawk said:


> He didn't make it to Marineford because Shanks stopped him. That's probably a big reason why he included Shanks in his list too...


You think an emperor can't afford a TV? You think there were no replays? This is even more ridiculous than Buggy reaching Raftel. 




Mihawk said:


> I think Oden was below that level but still good enough to give any Yonko a good fight. And yes, he was well above most Commanders.


Well you're one of a surprisingly small list of people who admit this.




Mihawk said:


> Yeah then again we seem to have found common ground and agree. I don't think those guys stomp Oden; I just don't think he was on their level.


I could actually play devil's advocate to attack my own argument for a second. Kaido might have simply been caught off guard, didn't warm up to get a chance to go hybrid, and underestimated Oden not knowing he had advanced conqueror's haki. Oden would still need to be at least stronger than a commander, but all of this is plausible without him being exactly equal to a yonko. 




Mihawk said:


> Yes and my counter to that was that Yamato was overwhelmed by Kaido before too long and admitted inferiority, thus eliminating herself from the conversation. Zoro getting swatted aside like a baseball by TB also doesn't do him many favours in this conversation.


Eh? Kaido is literally the strongest in the world. Yamato putting up a good effort before being overwhelmed doesn't mean she shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as yonko. Perhaps she does better against a less overwhelming but still formidable yonko in shanks but still loses. She could have been somewhat close to flashback Oden level. She did *way* better than Luffy did the first time. 

Zoro had like 20 broken bones and managed to block the most powerful attack we saw so far.




Mihawk said:


> The version of Zoro who left a scar on Kaido was inferior to the version of Zoro who defeated King. Neither version seem to be close to Yonko level anyways.


Disagree. Even though it was a group battle, Zoro was holding his own and that counts for something.




Mihawk said:


> I can say the same thing about your suggestion of Buggy becoming Pirate King


Well, not really because of very basic power scaling and portrayal. Full body is stronger than Morgan, Full Body was destroyed by Sanji low dif, Sanji was rag dolled by Arlong. It would take a miracle of God for Morgan to even tickle Arlong. 






Mihawk said:


> It's been 20 years since Oden told him to get stronger. We don't know when Kaido became a Yonko, but it certainly couldn't have been back then if he had no territories and was considered on the rise while matching up starts like Moria, when


We pretty much reached a consensus on Oden at this point, which was the aim of the discussion to give more context to the actual WB vs Kaido discussion. So that pretty much wraps up our main objective. I absolutely do not mind continuing the pirate king level conversation, but I think it might be best to make a separate thread for that.


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## MrAnalogies (May 23, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Never mind just found this post.
> 
> Teach had just gotten the Fruit. It’s unlikely he commanded the World Destroying powers with it yet that he claimed he had; he was overestimating his abilities with the fruit which he later admitted he was still not 100% with. Otherwise you have to take him saying he’s the Strongest Seriously and if that’s the case he’s also over Kaidou.
> 
> ...


Pure speculation that teach can't destroy the world due to lack of experience. Nowhere in the manga does it say you need to know a certain amount and I don't need to prove that you do, that's something you're claiming with zero evidence.

He's had 2 years with the fruit. Teach decided not to fight shanks because his crew wasn't ready, not him. He had already fought shanks and landed a serious slash before he even got his fruits.

Kaido wasn't worried about planet level AP and said only jobyoy could take him down. Therefore kaido is planet++ if not star level according to your own logic and would beat the shit out of WB.


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## Eustathios (May 23, 2022)

Whitebeard > other Yonkou, no matter how much people may try to twist it 


*Spoiler*: __ 









And this was ater MF

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 2


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## Mihawk (May 23, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> That's impressive but it doesn't change the fact WB and potentially 2-3 other characters were stronger than Roger so obviously PK isnt a tier of strength for pirates.


WB is the only one with that potential because he had the title. What 2-3 other characters were stronger than Roger? What evidence do you have to even back this up other than your own speculations?



MrAnalogies said:


> The title means WB is the stronger of the two and he had it while Roger was alive. You do not need to be the exact same strength to fight evenly with someone. This is true in martial arts, shonen, and the OP story itself.


Yeah so they were canonically equals. WB could've been the Pirate King, but didn't care for it.



MrAnalogies said:


> So it's ok to bump Roger and WB up a tier based on pure hype and speculation, but the moment I sat Roger+Garp were needed to beat Xebec=Xebec was probably stronger than either one individually now I've gone too far?


Thanks for ignoring all the points I brought up. Nothing I stated regarding Roger and WB was based on "pure hype and speculation". I gave you portrayal, character statements, and more.

Here are a few examples:

1. Jinbei said a crew member on board the Pirate King's ship doesn't cower before a "mere Yonko".
2. DCJ implied that becoming Pirate King means inadvertently surpassing Admirals and Yonko.
3. Mihawk, a former rival of a Yonko stated that becoming Pirate King is a loftier goal than surpassing him.
4. Kaido, a current Yonko admitted that Roger's Haki was the greatest.
5. Old Whitebeard, a 72 year old Yonko was portrayed as an equal to Shanks; while Doflamingo and Garp called him "King of the Seas".
6. Prime Whitebeard, who was the Pirate King's equal is obviously stronger than his much older self who still stalemated the Yonko.
7. Sengoku told Shiki that Roger was Pirate King, and would have beaten him. While this is Sengoku's personal opinion, it once again reinforces the view that Pirate King > everyone else.

All of that is straight from the manga. Disprove the above, and then you can say I'm giving pure hype and speculation.

Yes you're assumption that Xebec was stronger than both is an assumption. Furthermore, you and I both know that since we don't know what happened in God Valley, there's plenty of ways it can go.

We both agree that Xebec was probably stronger than the Yonko. Yes, it is very likely that he was stronger than Roger and Garp were _at the time_ in God Valley. However, Roger was also 13+ years away from becoming Pirate King.




MrAnalogies said:


> There were threads discussing this. King was in so much awe of Kaido be thought he was joyboy and said he was the strongest. The Marines had become McDonald's giving Kaido happy meals.


So what?

King was saved by Kaido and became a fanatical follower/loyal zealot who sacrificed for his ideals. Hell, he thought no one would ever be able to defeat Kaido, and he was proven wrong.

Villains are meant to be proven wrong.

I mean, Monet thought Doflamingo was surely going to become Pirate King. Now look what happened. It's just the devotion of a loyal subordinate.



MrAnalogies said:


> We don't know when kaido got the wsc title and if he received it while Roger was alive that's another hole in your head cannon.


How is that my head canon when you're the one who has failed to present evidence or provide proof of Kaido having the title in Roger's era? It's more like your head canon than mine if you think that's the reason why he may have been stronger than Roger.



MrAnalogies said:


> I brought up BM because Roger decided to be sneaky to steal her poneglyph instead of confronting her. That's open to speculation.


Yes I know why you brought her up. However, a different translation said that Roger simply took it. It's open to dispute.



MrAnalogies said:


> I think you're missing the point here. I'm not trying to die on a hill saying BM, Kong, Im, etc were all definitely equal to or stronger than Roger. I'm saying there's actual evidence to suggest there were literally half a dozen characters on Rogers level or higher while he was alive and held the title of pirate king. That makes the claim there's "pirate king level" very dubious at best. Im is the only one who gets a pass because the world doesn't know about their existence, but some of the characters I mentioned are actual yonko and famous.


Ok, but how is Kong among them?



MrAnalogies said:


> We both know this isn't true and buggy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about since Roger admitted multiple characters were his equal and have him tough fights.



He doesn't know what he was talking about? Buggy was present in all of Roger and Whitebeard's duels, and if anything his credibility is validated/reinforced by the recent Wano flashback of the 2 crews fighting each other. He was a witness since he was a Roger pirate.

Roger's admission doesn't invalidate anything Buggy said, considering the only people he "admitted" as his equals or close to it were Whitebeard and Garp.



MrAnalogies said:


> You yourself brought up how Shiki took on Garp and Sengokus at the same time, but you expect me to believe Roger was in a tier of his own compared to Shiki?



Sengoku outright telling Shiki to his face that Roger would have won against him, before Shiki refers to "The Legend of Roger the Pirate King..."



Shiki admitting it is WB's age now that Roger is dead...before WB threatens to send him on a one way trip to the sea bed...

https://sotaku.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/whitebeard-–-the-never-becoming-king-2.png


Seems pretty clear to me that while Shiki was close to them, he wasn't exactly their equal.

And let's say Shiki was indeed Roger's equal...doesn't that just make Oden's inclusion in Kaido's eyes while Shiki was excluded even more problematic? You don't see the issue with it even now?



MrAnalogies said:


> In a vacuum the statements and portrayal do suggest this, but analyzing the facts we see it simply isn't true. At best you can argue Roger was marginally stronger than your average yonko and would win high dif.


I actually agree with this statement.

I think we can end our debate now. I've always argued that Roger would high diff the Yonko.

To avoid any further confusion or so that you don't think I'm contradicting myself, here's my ranking which you are free to disagree with:

Roger=WB>= Garp~Sengoku>=Yonko

OR

Roger~WB~Xebec~Garp>= Sengoku~Kaido~Shiki~Big Mom~Shanks etc.



MrAnalogies said:


> You left out Shiki again, amongst others.


Wasn't my intention.


MrAnalogies said:


> Kaido isn't saying you don't need an archeologist. *If it was just about having strong haki shanks or even kaido himself would have found the OP before Luffy even got to the new world, maybe before the story even began*. You DO absolutely need an archeologist or a 3 eyes tribe member to reach Raftel. You need a superb navigator, a doctor, shipwright, etc. This was emphasized all throughout east Blue and Paradise. Like I said, Roger could have been bench pressing sea king and he'd still fail without those resources.


Yes yes you need them, but I brought that up to dismiss the notion that luck and poneglyphs was all you needed.

Kaido's statement was made to indicate Roger's superiority, since he stated that his Haki was what allowed him to "conquer the Grand Line", and that having a devil fruit power isn't enough. This is in spite of the fact that he himself is a devil fruit user.

As for the bolded, to prove this you'd have to show that Shanks or Kaido's level of Haki was on Roger's level.



MrAnalogies said:


> Good thing I never said that then because Buggy doesn't get Oda power-up handjobs or having actual fate on his side. Buggy has had his fair share of absurd luck being able to convince level 6 infamous pirates to follow him, convincing the public he and WB were peers having a conversation to alter perception, becoming a schichibukai, etc. All that just with pure deception and misunderstandings. You had the fake Luffy doing similar things by literally just living off the name of someone else. I never said Buggy could be "destined" to reach Raftel, but based on the rules of the actual series without Oda playing favorites, yes he could potentially gather the right crew and resources to reach it.


Okay...Buggy is an extreme example and a comic relief character.

If he somehow pulls it off, he'll be a meme/joke/gag and the Pirate King title becomes a meme/joke/gag because of it.


MrAnalogies said:


> If I'm trolling tell me what strength requirements are needed that Buggy couldn't fulfill?


He's not a top tier.



Please stop these extreme scenarios and ridiculous head canon and come back to the manga.

Buggy can't beat a single top tier and isn't worthy of being Pirate King.

The fact that you brought it up shows you little you seem to value strength as it pertains to what it takes. Yes it isn't a pure strength title like WSS/WSM/WSC, but to say that all you need is sheer dumb luck is flat out disrespectful. Arguing that Buggy has the potential to pull it off isn't gonna get us anywhere.



MrAnalogies said:


> You do realize Luffy was much weaker than big mom and his crewmate brook was even weaker and they managed to steal her poneglyph and escape without being slaughtered with a bit of luck? Before you say Luffy had to defeat Katakuri, remember that Capone had a plan to assassinate BM. If that succeeded they would have escaped even quicker.



And are they doing the same in Wano against Kaido...? I didn't think so.

Capone's plan to assassinate her was _never _going to work.



MrAnalogies said:


> There was also Laws plan to get Kaido to deal with Doffy for him.


Yes, it was a plan to deal with Doffy...remind me again what were the chances of success that Law coughed up when proposing his master plan of taking down Kaido to Luffy?


MrAnalogies said:


> Well the portrayal of Roger/WB > everyone isn't so clear when I have told you about half a dozen characters that might be on their level. I* have only been using canon statements/feats.*


So have I.


MrAnalogies said:


> That's the whole point. That* using the same logic I can hype up completely featless characters to PK level *with head cannon and speculation.


You brought up Kong and Imu....2 characters whom have never interacted with the Pirate King.

What featless characters did I bring up to "hype up completely featless characters to PK level with head cannon and speculation"...? The PK himself and the only 2 or 3 people whom have been confirmed to have fought him equally?  That's head canon? Seems like you don't understand what the word means now.


MrAnalogies said:


> See now you're doing the same thing I'm doing except worse. You're adding speculation on top of speculation instead of just addressing the simplest explanation that Roger and Garp had to work together.


Because Sengoku said they teamed up to take down the Rocks. You yourself brought up infighting and stuff we haven't seen because God Valley is largely shrouded in mystery. You've previously acknowledged just how many possibilities there are in your analysis of Xebec, so I'm just offering to you the same opening of possibilities in this particular scenario including the possibility that they didn't have to beat him 2v1.



MrAnalogies said:


> Xebec was called his greatest for. Greatest is a timeless adjective, meaning better than anyone Roger faced past present or future.


Sengoku said he was _perhaps _his greatest foe.

And yes, if Xebec was the greatest one then that puts him above everyone else.



MrAnalogies said:


> I never suggested that. I said he has at least seen some of them in action giving how MF was broadcasted.


1. You suggested that he saw them as inferior, which is based on nothing concrete.
2. Watching someone fight on TV is different than watching them up close, let alone fighting them for real.
3. Kaido was already engaged with Shanks while MF started. He had problems of his own to deal with.



MrAnalogies said:


> You think an emperor can't afford a TV? You think there were no replays? This is even more ridiculous than Buggy reaching Raftel.


I think you missed the point once again.

I said Shanks stopped him, so they were confirmed to have met or confronted each other. Thus, it is more reasonable for Shanks to be included by Kaido.

Also what are you going on about lol? Why does it matter if he saw it or not? We're talking about Mihawk, Teach, Dragon, and Akainu right? Mihawk didn't go all out; Akainu was promoted over the timeskip; Dragon wasn't there, and Teach wasn't Yonko yet....so again, you're grasping at straws.

I'm glad we both agree that Buggy becoming Pirate King would be ridiculous though.


MrAnalogies said:


> Well you're one of a surprisingly small list of people who admit this.


If you say so.


MrAnalogies said:


> I could actually play devil's advocate to attack my own argument for a second. Kaido might have simply been caught off guard, didn't warm up to get a chance to go hybrid, and underestimated Oden not knowing he had advanced conqueror's haki. Oden would still need to be at least stronger than a commander, but all of this is plausible without him being exactly equal to a yonko.


If you say so.


MrAnalogies said:


> Eh? Kaido is literally the strongest in the world. Yamato putting up a good effort before being overwhelmed doesn't mean she shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as yonko. Perhaps she does better against a less overwhelming but still formidable yonko in shanks but still loses.


She shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Yonko, because a Yonko has never been portrayed like that in relation to Kaido...


MrAnalogies said:


> She could have been somewhat close to flashback Oden level.


Maybe.


MrAnalogies said:


> She did *way* better than Luffy did the first time.


True.


MrAnalogies said:


> Zoro had like 20 broken bones and managed to block the most powerful attack we saw so far.


For an instant while Law teleported them out of there...


MrAnalogies said:


> Disagree. Even though it was a group battle, Zoro was holding his own and that counts for something.


Disagree with which part...? That Pre-Adv. CoC Zoro was weaker than Adv. CoC Zoro? Or that Rooftop Zoro was close to Yonko level?



MrAnalogies said:


> Well, not really because of very basic power scaling and portrayal. Full body is stronger than Morgan, Full Body was destroyed by Sanji low dif, Sanji was rag dolled by Arlong. It would take a miracle of God for Morgan to even tickle Arlong.


Yes you're right, as it would certainly take a miracle of God for Buggy to become Pirate King.


MrAnalogies said:


> We pretty much reached a consensus on Oden at this point, which was the aim of the discussion to give more context to the actual WB vs Kaido discussion. So that pretty much wraps up our main objective. I absolutely do not mind continuing the pirate king level conversation, but I think it might be best to make a separate thread for that.





Here's the thread for it

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Mihawk (May 23, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Whitebeard > other Yonkou, no matter how much people may try to twist it
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




Damn you've outdone yourself again, cousin. 

I can't wait to see people deny/refute this  


"Marineford was 12 years agooooo" 


"Sengoku was about to retire...he must have been senile and doesn't know what he's talking about." 




Anyways I blame Oda for all these contradictions and opinionated statements. I honestly think he knows what he's doing and gets a kick out of riling up the entire fanbase for eternity discussing his manga.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Turrin (May 23, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Pure speculation that teach can't destroy the world due to lack of experience. Nowhere in the manga does it say you need to know a certain amount and I don't need to prove that you do, that's something you're claiming with zero evidence.
> 
> He's had 2 years with the fruit. Teach decided not to fight shanks because his crew wasn't ready, not him. He had already fought shanks and landed a serious slash before he even got his fruits.
> 
> Kaido wasn't worried about planet level AP and said only jobyoy could take him down. Therefore kaido is planet++ if not star level according to your own logic and would beat the shit out of WB.


1) Your misunderstanding my meaning. I’m saying  if your going to not accept Teach’s words that he’s the strongest for the reasons that he was a novice still with the Gura Fruit and was overconfident; then you can’t accept say he was definitely right about being able to destroy the world ether.

The rest is an argument from ignorance. Saying because the manga hasn’t said a novice can’t use this ability; that they must be able to. Orcamz razor dictates that most likely a novice can’t use a DF most hyped up ability, as we have seen dozens of examples of how Fruit Users require a great deal of experience with their fruit before they can use it’s most powerful abilities. Luffy didn’t pull Gears out the moment he ate his DF or even at the start of his Journey for instance.

2) I wasn’t talking about Shanks, so not sure what that’s about 

3) Kaidou said no one in the world could take him down. We know Luffy could, so he was wrong. The moment his statement was falsified we know it was an overestimation of himself, IE typical villain smack talk.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MrAnalogies (May 23, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) Your misunderstanding my meaning. I’m saying  if your going to not accept Teach’s words that he’s the strongest for the reasons that he was a novice still with the Gura Fruit and was overconfident; then you can’t accept say he was definitely right about being able to destroy the world ether.
> 
> The rest is an argument from ignorance. Saying because the manga hasn’t said a novice can’t use this ability; that they must be able to. Orcamz razor dictates that most likely a novice can’t use a DF most hyped up ability, as we have seen dozens of examples of how Fruit Users require a great deal of experience with their fruit before they can use it’s most powerful abilities. Luffy didn’t pull Gears out the moment he ate his DF or even at the start of his Journey for instance.
> 
> ...


Teach automatically gets the power to destroy the world with the gura fruit. That's the reason WB was given the wsm title according to the vivre cards. WB became knowns as wsm for being able to destroy the world due to his fruit.

We don't know what is required to use the fruits ability just like you don't actually know how WB can destroy the world in the first place or if it means he actually has planet level AP. Both are pure speculation. All we know is that the gura fruit gives you that power and Teach has it now and Kaido wasn't worried. Teach has had it for 2 years and Kaido still isn't worried. Therefore kaido isn't worried about planet level AP.

Kaido is the same person who said joyboy would defeat him years ago in his flashback. He didn't know Luffy was joyboy when he made the statement no one can take him down. Now can you rub the small handful of braincells you have together to understand what I'm saying or do I have to break it down in Swahili?


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## Turrin (May 23, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Teach automatically gets the power to destroy the world with the gura fruit. That's the reason WB was given the wsm title according to the vivre cards. WB became knowns as wsm for being able to destroy the world due to his fruit.
> 
> We don't know what is required to use the fruits ability just like you don't actually know how WB can destroy the world in the first place or if it means he actually has planet level AP. Both are pure speculation. All we know is that the gura fruit gives you that power and Teach has it now and Kaido wasn't worried. Teach has had it for 2 years and Kaido still isn't worried. Therefore kaido isn't worried about planet level AP.
> 
> Kaido is the same person who said joyboy would defeat him years ago in his flashback. He didn't know Luffy was joyboy when he made the statement no one can take him down. Now can you rub the small handful of braincells you have together to understand what I'm saying or do I have to break it down in Swahili?


1) Your still not addressing my point. Teach also thinks he is the strongest. But you clearly don’t accept his statement as fact there. So your applying a double standard.

2) WB have AP that can effect things on a planetary scale is a fact not speculation. As I’ve proven to you over and over again. You dipped out of that debate to move to this point now and already conceded. So let’s not try to back track now that your loosing this point as well.

3) Kaidou also wasn’t worried about Luffy despite him awakening into a God and then he lost. It’s safe to say that Kaidou level of concern is not a reliable gauge for how powerful someone actually is and he is clearly overconfident.


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## MrAnalogies (May 23, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) Your still not addressing my point. Teach also thinks he is the strongest. But you clearly don’t accept his statement as fact there. So your applying a double standard.
> 
> 2) WB have AP that can effect things on a planetary scale is a fact not speculation. As I’ve proven to you over and over again. You dipped out of that debate to move to this point now and already conceded. So let’s not try to back track now that your loosing this point as well.
> 
> 3) Kaidou also wasn’t worried about Luffy despite him awakening into a God and then he lost. It’s safe to say that Kaidou level of concern is not a reliable gauge for how powerful someone actually is and he is clearly overconfident.


There is no double standard. Teach can be the strongest and Kaido can be the most durable.  You're the one who made a 20 page essay arguing world's strongest creature referred to durability and resilience.

I didn't concede. I'm entertaining your idea for the sake of argument and now you're mad because it backfired.  

Kaido could have dodged and didn't. He wanted to see if the prophecy was true. That is only your opinion we can't trust Kaido's ability to judge. I can simply flip it around and say yes we can trust him. All we know is teach can destroy the world and Kaido isn't worried about it but was defeated by Joyboy. Therefore Joyboy>planet level AP and Kaido is planet++ for durability.


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## Turrin (May 23, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> There is no double standard. Teach can be the strongest and Kaido can be the most durable.  You're the one who made a 20 page essay arguing world's strongest creature referred to durability and resilience.
> 
> I didn't concede. I'm entertaining your idea for the sake of argument and now you're mad because it backfired.
> 
> Kaido could have dodged and didn't. He wanted to see if the prophecy was true. That is only your opinion we can't trust Kaido's ability to judge. I can simply flip it around and say yes we can trust him. All we know is teach can destroy the world and Kaido isn't worried about it but was defeated by Joyboy. Therefore Joyboy>planet level AP and Kaido is planet++ for durability.


Okay so now you agree Kaidou’s title is about durability and WSM is about AP? Because if so then sure there is no double standard. But if your going to argue otherwise in all other threads, then yes your applying a double standard.
—-
But your not entertaining it as your backpedaling now to your previous premise.
—-
Kaidou says he can’t be beaten. If the Text comes up next chapter saying Winner Monkey D Luffy, then he was wrong. We can wait to see if you want?


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## MrAnalogies (May 23, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> WB is the only one with that potential because he had the title. What 2-3 other characters were stronger than Roger? What evidence do you have to even back this up other than your own speculations?


Im pretty sure I've gone over that several times. It's pure speculation that Roger was significantly stronger than his peers to begin with.




Mihawk said:


> Yeah so they were canonically equals. WB could've been the Pirate King, but didn't care for it.


Canonically WB was stronger. He had the wsm title.



Mihawk said:


> 1. Jinbei said a crew member on board the Pirate King's ship doesn't cower before a "mere Yonko".
> 2. DCJ implied that becoming Pirate King means inadvertently surpassing Admirals and Yonko.
> 3. Mihawk, a former rival of a Yonko stated that becoming Pirate King is a loftier goal than surpassing him.
> 4. Kaido, a current Yonko admitted that Roger's Haki was the greatest.
> ...


1. Bold words to sound cool for the reader to get excited over Luffy surpassing the yonko. Extrapolating off of Jimbei showing no fear to suggest Rayleigh was godly yonko+ tier is Turrin levels of wank.
2. Obviously if you find the OP you've surpassed the millions of pirates who attempted to reach raftel. Doesn't mean you suddenly get a tier of your own mid diffing the admirals and yonko.
3. I brought that quote up myself. First of all, Mihawk and Shanks were rivals long before Shanks was a yonko and he could jack off with both arms. It's a little bit contradictory for you to use this when you were questioning Oden being yonko tier because Kaido might not have been a yonko when they fought and he got stronger. I also belive that Shanks is not only weaker than when he was Mihawk's rival, Shanks is also the weakest yonko in general. Being the pirate king is definitely loftier than wss due to the prestige and crazy things you have to do to achieve it, doesn't even automatically indicate a big gap in tiers.
4. Ok, and? Aisa has greater haki than Franky, can she beat Franky in a fight? This just means Roger had the most ambition.
5. Old people in OP can be strong af. WB had the scariest fruit and a very powerful crew with lots of commanders and vast territories. People always gloss over this. When Big Mom expressed frustration that she couldn't seal the deal with the giants, she emphasized the power of WB's crew, not just individual strength. That's why he's the king of the seas. The Ace novel flat out states Kaido was the deadliest in 1v1 combat.
6. Old WB was getting by off of fear, reputation, and a very strong crew. Crocodile and Marco basically confirm this expressing shock at his weakness when he had to actually fight for more than one clash.
7. Someone being confident Roger would beat Shiki doesn't mean he'd be in a tier of his own. I mean, look at the hell Luffy went through to beat kaido, getting ko'd twice, dying once, and needing multiple upgrades. Is he suddenly in a tier of his own now after simply winning? If Sengoku said Roger "would have low diffed you while smoking a blunt bruh" then you'd have a case.

This is all still speculation even if I'm off for some of them because it was _never_ explicitly stated Roger was in a league of his own. That's my whole point. People invented this tier list stuff and over analyzed the manga.



Mihawk said:


> So what?
> 
> King was saved by Kaido and became a fanatical follower/loyal zealot who sacrificed for his ideals. Hell, he thought no one would ever be able to defeat Kaido, and he was proven wrong.
> 
> ...


Except King isn't some random arc villain, he knows parts of the true history. His statement also suggests he wasn't the only one calling kaido the strongest at the time which means his reputation was getting around.



Mihawk said:


> How is that my head canon when you're the one who has failed to present evidence or provide proof of Kaido having the title in Roger's era? It's more like your head canon than mine if you think that's the reason why he may have been stronger than Roger.


I didn't claim kaido definitely had the title at the time. I said IF he did, then that presents a problem. 



Mihawk said:


> Yes I know why you brought her up. However, a different translation said that Roger simply took it. It's open to dispute.


So it's within the realm of possiblity BM was close to or even with him in strength. So what I said was correct in that depending on how you view things and which translation there could literally be 5 pirates and 2 marines who were close, equal to, or surpassed Roger in power while he was alive. Not looking good.



Mihawk said:


> Ok, but how is Kong among them?


Admirals are always stronger than vice admirals. The fleet admiral is stronger than admirals and is treated as a lofty position for people of high strength given how BM and kaido were scouted for the position. It's possible the commander in chief is above the fleet admiral in strength. Before you say speculation, im well aware. I'm just saying the way the manga is written this is quite possibly the case.



Mihawk said:


> He doesn't know what he was talking about? Buggy was present in all of Roger and Whitebeard's duels, and if anything his credibility is validated/reinforced by the recent Wano flashback of the 2 crews fighting each other. He was a witness since he was a Roger pirate.
> 
> Roger's admission doesn't invalidate anything Buggy said, considering the only people he "admitted" as his equals or close to it were Whitebeard and Garp.


Well, no he doesn't know what he's talking about if he said only WB fought equally with Roger and then we see Roger saying him and Garp had multiple equal fights. That's clearly either a plot hole/mistake or Buggy was unaware of a lot of things.



Mihawk said:


> And let's say Shiki was indeed Roger's equal...doesn't that just make Oden's inclusion in Kaido's eyes while Shiki was excluded even more problematic? You don't see the issue with it even now?


Two things. If Roger says Garp is his equal yet both Garp and Sengoku teamed up to fight him then it's very difficult to claim Shiki was a whole tier below Roger even if Sengoku thinks Roger would have beaten Shiki. Unless Garp just got much weaker during his prime and that makes no sense. 

Kaido not including Shiki could be because they never fought. 



Mihawk said:


> I actually agree with this statement.
> 
> I think we can end our debate now. I've always argued that Roger would high diff the Yonko.
> 
> ...


I don't completely agree with the list, but if you think Roger would have to high diff the yonko then we've been mostly agreeing, just took a long time to get there. GG's.

I was against the notion that Roger low or mid difs current Yonko according to some wankers.



Mihawk said:


> The fact that you brought it up shows you little you seem to value strength as it pertains to what it takes. Yes it isn't a pure strength title like WSS/WSM/WSC, but to say that all you need is sheer dumb luck is flat out disrespectful. Arguing that Buggy has the potential to pull it off isn't gonna get us anywhere.


To be completely honest I forgot Luffy said that to Fuji. If that's Oda's agenda, then I agree Buggy can't be pirate king unless he brainwashes someone to fight top tiers for him and takes the credit.



Mihawk said:


> Capone's plan to assassinate her was _never _going to work.


This I'd have to completely disagree with. Big Mom in her emotional state fell and hurt her knees with real blood just from hitting the ground. She was dazed and couldn't defend herself. Anything was possible in that moment.



Mihawk said:


> Yes, it was a plan to deal with Doffy...remind me again what were the chances of success that Law coughed up when proposing his master plan of taking down Kaido to Luffy?


They were low, I think 30%? But still within the realm of possiblity. I wasn't suggesting any random bum could definitely for sure use Capone and Law's strategies to beat the yonko lol.



Mihawk said:


> So have I.


You have.

Thank God there hasn't been any Two Piece references.



Mihawk said:


> Because Sengoku said they teamed up to take down the Rocks. You yourself brought up infighting and stuff we haven't seen because God Valley is largely shrouded in mystery. You've previously acknowledged just how many possibilities there are in your analysis of Xebec, so I'm just offering to you the same opening of possibilities in this particular scenario including the possibility that they didn't have to beat him 2v1.


If Xebec was indeed the strongest on that crew then outside of hax, catching him off guard, or mutiny, the only real way they could have stopped him was with a group effort. It's not like Roger or Garp had convenient bullshit awakenings to bump them up a tier.



Mihawk said:


> 1. You suggested that he saw them as inferior, which is based on nothing concrete.
> 2. Watching someone fight on TV is different than watching them up close, let alone fighting them for real.
> 3. Kaido was already engaged with Shanks while MF started. He had problems of his own to deal with.


1. None of these conversations are concrete.
2. Well no but even boxers and MMA fighters do that to form strategies and analyze someone's ability. This is how Max Schmeling defeated Joe Louis.
3. I think I addressed that? And I'm sure there's footage of the admirals in action if he never saw the broadcast.



Mihawk said:


> She shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Yonko, because a Yonko has never been portrayed like that in relation to Kaido...


Because Oda, like many mangaka, often refuses to actually draw conclusive battles between named characters who aren't straw hats. We already knew Teach would beat Marco, the writing was on the wall. We had seen both Teach and Marco's abilities, yet he refused to show us a single panel. It wasn't like Marco was being saved as a future opponent. Same thing with Aokiji and Akainu, just a lame info dump. Kaido vs Shanks, not a single page. Mangakas don't like showing conclusive battles for potential future antagonists.



Mihawk said:


> Disagree with which part...? That Pre-Adv. CoC Zoro was weaker than Adv. CoC Zoro? Or that Rooftop Zoro was close to Yonko level?


Disagree that Zoro is even close to yonko level.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## MrAnalogies (May 23, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Okay so now you agree Kaidou’s title is about durability and WSM is about AP? Because if so then sure there is no double standard. But if your going to argue otherwise in all other threads, then yes your applying a double standard.
> —-
> But your not entertaining it as your backpedaling now to your previous premise.
> —-
> Kaidou says he can’t be beaten. If the Text comes up next chapter saying Winner Monkey D Luffy, then he was wrong. We can wait to see if you want?


It's called playing devil's advocate because you're too hard headed to have a normal conversation with.

I'm not back peddling. You were playing checkers and I was playing chess. This is what I've been aiming for the whole time and your'e stuck now. Kaido is planet++ according to YOUR logic.

Kaido didn't say he can't be beaten. He said no one in the world can take him down except joyboy. And that has held true so far. Which means Teach's planet level AP wasn't enough, and by extension the darkness fruit isn't either. WB has no chance against Kaido.


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## Turrin (May 23, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> It's called playing devil's advocate because you're too hard headed to have a normal conversation with.
> 
> I'm not back peddling. You were playing checkers and I was playing chess. This is what I've been aiming for the whole time and your'e stuck now. Kaido is planet++ according to YOUR logic.
> 
> Kaido didn't say he can't be beaten. He said no one in the world can take him down except joyboy. And that has held true so far. Which means Teach's planet level AP wasn't enough, and by extension the darkness fruit isn't either. WB has no chance against Kaido.


Playing Devils Advocate doesn’t work here as I’ve never argued Teach was definitely correct at MF. And I know you in any other thread would argue that Teach wasn’t correct. So there is zero reason for me to allow you to grand-.stand that he couldn’t have just been overconfident at MF, when I know this is exactly what you believe to be true.

Beyond that how am I not having a normal conversation with you? I’ve literally gone out of my way to be nice to you and take multiple posts to explain my premises. The only one who seems to be getting heated here is you.
—
Woah calm down there Bobby fisher. If this is what you were aiming for why are you bringing up it being speculation that WB has Planet effecting AP again. This is your king me move to argue within the confines that he does, so let’s stick to that right Deep Blue…
—-
“There is no one in this world capable of bringing me down”.

Find me “Joy Boy” in that Quote. Kaidou saying in a flashback that Joy Boy would be the one to defeat him, ether means he doesn’t think Joy Boy exists in the world right now (which means he’s wrong) or he changed his mind and thinks he will beat Joy Boy now (which he is wrong about). No matter what Luffy beating him makes this statement wrong.


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## MrAnalogies (May 23, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Playing Devils Advocate doesn’t work here as I’ve never argued Teach was definitely correct at MF. And I know you in any other thread would argue that Teach wasn’t correct. So there is zero reason for me to allow you to grand-.stand that he couldn’t have just been overconfident at MF, when I know this is exactly what you believe to be true.
> 
> Beyond that how am I not having a normal conversation with you? I’ve literally gone out of my way to be nice to you and take multiple posts to explain my premises. The only one who seems to be getting heated here is you.
> —
> ...


The statement isn't wrong. He believed no one could take him down except joyboy. 

Teach is actually stronger than WB by quite a bit given that he can create black holes. A black holes is at least star level for AP, and yet he cannot defeat Kaido. 

So Kaido is star+ for durability and Joyboy is star++ for AP.


----------



## Mihawk (May 24, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Im pretty sure I've gone over that several times. It's pure speculation that Roger was significantly stronger than his peers to begin with.


It's also pure speculation to think that they were all equal to him, let alone assuming there are up to 4 of them who might be stronger.



MrAnalogies said:


> Canonically WB was stronger. He had the wsm title.


That's fine.

Still, Oda has gone out of his way with panels, art, and statements to portray them both as equals. If WB was stronger, it was marginal at best.


MrAnalogies said:


> 1. Bold words to sound cool for the reader to get excited over Luffy surpassing the yonko. Extrapolating off of Jimbei showing no fear to suggest Rayleigh was godly yonko+ tier is Turrin levels of wank.


So you are unable to counter or refute this with anything outside of your own opinion...got it.

I never said anything about Rayleigh with this. I was saying that Jimbei's statement is one of several that contributes to the overall picture that the Pirate King > Yonko.



MrAnalogies said:


> 2. Obviously if you find the OP you've surpassed the millions of pirates who attempted to reach raftel. *Doesn't mean you suddenly get a tier of your own *mid diffing the admirals and yonko.


Again that's your interpretation. Also, I never said a PK would mid diff Yonko and Admirals.

As for the bolded, actually it does seem like DCJ and Luffy are both suggesting that the PK exists on a category of its own.


MrAnalogies said:


> 3. I brought that quote up myself. First of all, Mihawk and Shanks were rivals long before Shanks was a yonko and he could jack off with both arms. It's a little bit contradictory for you to use this when you were questioning Oden being yonko tier because Kaido might not have been a yonko when they fought and he got stronger.


Except Oden didn't have the WSS title. Mihawk and Shanks may have both duelled in the past, but it was never settled. Furthermore, they both grew stronger as they went on to gain impressive titles. Neither one stagnated, as VCs and Datebooks suggested that Mihawk has been looking for someone that surpasses Shanks, and that a lot of Shanks' fame is attributed to his duels with Mihawk.


MrAnalogies said:


> I also belive that Shanks is not only weaker than when he was Mihawk's rival.


Then you'd be going against the word of the author since he explicitly stated that Shanks didn't get any weaker in spite of the loss of his arm.



MrAnalogies said:


> Being the pirate king is definitely loftier than wss due to the prestige and crazy things you have to do to achieve it, doesn't even automatically indicate a big gap in tiers.


We already agree here.



MrAnalogies said:


> 4. Ok, and? Aisa has greater haki than Franky, can she beat Franky in a fight? This just means Roger had the most ambition.


Again, oversimplification and a bit of a false equivalency if I may say so. To compare Kaido's words on Roger and Aisa's level of Observation Haki to Franky is terrible.

Why? Because no one ever said Aisa managed to conquer the Grand Line. The Boa Sisters had greater Haki than Amazon Lily Luffy, yet he whooped them. However, no one ever said the Sisters managed to conquer the Grand Line and become Pirate King.

Aisa is not the Pirate King. Gold Roger was.



MrAnalogies said:


> 5. Old people in OP can be strong af. WB had the scariest fruit and a very powerful crew with lots of commanders and vast territories. People always gloss over this. When Big Mom expressed frustration that she couldn't seal the deal with the giants, she emphasized the power of WB's crew, not just individual strength. That's why he's the king of the seas.



Yet they still decline. Garp admitted to being weaker than he was in his prime, back in Water 7. WB obviously declined, and so did Rayleigh and others.

Just because Oldbeard was strong af, doesn't mean he didn't decline significantly from his prime days.

Actually Big Mom mentioned surpassing Kaido, Shanks, and "even" WB individually. She didn't say anything about their crews, although acquiring military potential does of course imply that breaking the stalemate logically includes beating those crews.

Yes we know WB had a very powerful crew and massive territories. That's not what Garp was talking about when he said that WB was one of the 4 strongest pirates ruling the New World, who was in stalemate though. He was talking about Whitebeard.

_After _Marineford, Sengoku told Kong there were still many legendary pirates out there in the New World, and that "Newgate was at the top of that group".

Again, Newgate & Roger > the rest.



MrAnalogies said:


> The Ace novel flat out states Kaido was the deadliest in 1v1 combat.


The novel isn't written by Oda.



MrAnalogies said:


> 6. Old WB was getting by off of fear, reputation, and a very strong crew. Crocodile and Marco basically confirm this expressing shock at his weakness when he had to actually fight for more than one clash.


Yet Sengoku still referred to him as the WSM after that. He still said Newgate was at the top of that group. Doflamingo said that WB held the reins and was standing in front of the throne. Furthermore, Newgate clashed equally with Shanks without the use of his DF, backing that up.

While Kaido and Big Mom continued to amass military strength in hopes of surpassing/beating WB, Newgate didn't even care about being Pirate King. If that isn't a flex, I don't know what is. The fact that he was 72 and Kaido/Big Mom still made no moves against him and couldn't surpass him doesn't inspire much confidence in saying they could beat him when he was at his absolute pinnacle.



MrAnalogies said:


> 7. Someone being confident Roger would beat Shiki doesn't mean he'd be in a tier of his own. I mean, look at the hell Luffy went through to beat kaido, getting ko'd twice, dying once, and needing multiple upgrades. Is he suddenly in a tier of his own now after simply winning? If Sengoku said Roger "would have low diffed you while smoking a blunt bruh" then you'd have a case.


A bit of apples & oranges.

Implying I have no case, yet I never claimed that Roger would "low diff Shiki while smoking a blunt" so I don't even know where you're going with that. Luffy had to go through hell to beat Kaido, along with all the help he received and multiple power ups, because he was weaker than Kaido.

Sengoku never implied that Roger was the underdog who was trying to surpass Kaido. Roger never needed all that help and multiple power ups to fight Shiki, so again that's a bizarre analogy. You'd have a point if Shiki was WSC and Roger was some Supernova. Nothing in Chapter 0 implied any of this.

THE FACT remains that Sengoku said that Roger would've beaten him, and Shiki himself was bitter because he couldn't beat Roger.

The Legend of the Pirate King > The Legend of the Golden Lion. Roger > Shiki.



MrAnalogies said:


> This is all still speculation even if I'm off for some of them because it was _never_ explicitly stated Roger was in a league of his own. That's my whole point. People invented this tier list stuff and over analyzed the manga.


Really? Because these are all statements from the manga and the perception of credible characters. Jimbei, Buggy, Doflamingo, Sengoku, Garp, Whitebeard himself, Rayleigh, Kaido, Big Mom herself, the list goes on and on....

It doesn't have to be explicitly stated for it not to be considered speculation. And we are all speculating, that's why we're here. Why bother debating if you can just say "I don't know". It's counterproductive when you're trying to contradict the manga itself and the only counter you have is to accuse the fanbase of inventing a tier list. There is more evidence in favour of some speculation over others.


MrAnalogies said:


> Except King isn't some random arc villain, he knows parts of the true history. His statement also suggests he wasn't the only one calling kaido the strongest at the time which means his reputation was getting around.


King is credible, I never denied that.

But his bias can be called into question due to the fact that he's an extremely loyal subordinate. Furthermore, he's already been proven wrong.



MrAnalogies said:


> I didn't claim kaido definitely had the title at the time. I said IF he did, then that presents a problem.


Yes IF he did.


MrAnalogies said:


> So it's within the realm of possiblity BM was close to or even with him in strength.


Sure.


MrAnalogies said:


> So what I said was correct in that depending on how you view things and which translation there could literally be 5 pirates and 2 marines who were close, equal to, or surpassed Roger in power while he was alive. Not looking good.


Some of them were close, and some of them were equal to him. No argument can be made for anyone besides WB/Xebec for surpassing him while he was alive though....there is nothing that suggests that unless you really twist and warp things into that direction.


MrAnalogies said:


> Admirals are always stronger than vice admirals.


That goes without saying.


MrAnalogies said:


> The fleet admiral is stronger than admirals and is treated as a lofty position for people of high strength


Sengoku wasn't stronger than Roger when he became Fleet Admiral. He likely wasn't even his equal. Akainu most likely isn't on Roger's level in spite of becoming Fleet Admiral. But again, that's a discussion for another time...

Yes Kong was definitely a heavyweight. But we know nothing about him and have never seen him in action to make the claim that he was as strong as Roger. Roger didn't even mention him when he talked about Garp and Sengoku. Kong hasn't been included in any legendary conversations, most likely because he simply wasn't from the same era, but the one before it.


MrAnalogies said:


> given how BM and kaido were scouted for the position.


Sure, but Kaido was also scouted for Admiral.


MrAnalogies said:


> It's possible the commander in chief is above the fleet admiral in strength. Before you say speculation, im well aware. I'm just saying the way the manga is written this is quite possibly the case.


Okay, but Kong is well past his prime at this point.


MrAnalogies said:


> Well, no he doesn't know what he's talking about if he said only WB fought equally with Roger and then we see Roger saying him and Garp had multiple equal fights. That's clearly either a plot hole/mistake or Buggy was unaware of a lot of things.


Nope. Buggy was talking about pirates in the race for Pirate King after the One Piece. It's why he said WB was the closest man to One Piece, and then saying WB was his equal. Garp was not after the One Piece.

It wasn't a plot hole nor a mistake. It was just the context.


MrAnalogies said:


> Two things. If Roger says Garp is his equal yet both Garp and Sengoku teamed up to fight him then it's very difficult to claim Shiki was a whole tier below Roger even if Sengoku thinks Roger would have beaten Shiki. Unless Garp just got much weaker during his prime and that makes no sense.


But Sengoku said Roger > or >= Shiki. The thing you have to understand is that they teamed up to protect Marineford. Teaming up to take Shiki down was the best possible means of achieving their objective and mitigating casualties. After all, Shiki was very strong. Also, they are Navy soldiers and Marines whom uphold the law. They are not interested in fighting 1v1 in the way that guys like Kaido are.

Also I'm not talking about tiers. I'm just saying Roger was stronger.



MrAnalogies said:


> Kaido not including Shiki could be because they never fought.


Exactly.

So Kaido also may have never fought Mihawk, Akainu, Teach, Sengoku, Garp, etc..

His inclusion of Oden, Shanks, Xebec, WB, and Roger could've been because he fought them.



MrAnalogies said:


> I don't completely agree with the list, but if you think Roger would have to high diff the yonko then we've been mostly agreeing, just took a long time to get there. GG's.



Yessir!!!



MrAnalogies said:


> I was against the notion that Roger low or mid difs current Yonko according to some wankers.


I don't think he does. I don't think it's possible for him or anyone we know of to do that.


MrAnalogies said:


> To be completely honest I forgot Luffy said that to Fuji. If that's Oda's agenda, then I agree Buggy can't be pirate king unless he brainwashes someone to fight top tiers for him and takes the credit.


Yes.



MrAnalogies said:


> This I'd have to completely disagree with. Big Mom in her emotional state fell and hurt her knees with real blood just from hitting the ground. She was dazed and couldn't defend herself. Anything was possible in that moment.


Okay.


MrAnalogies said:


> They were low, I think 30%? But still within the realm of possiblity. I wasn't suggesting any random bum could definitely for sure use Capone and Law's strategies to beat the yonko lol.


That's fine.


MrAnalogies said:


> You have.
> 
> Thank God there hasn't been any Two Piece references.





MrAnalogies said:


> If Xebec was indeed the strongest on that crew then outside of hax, catching him off guard, or mutiny, the only real way they could have stopped him was with a group effort. It's not like Roger or Garp had convenient bullshit awakenings to bump them up a tier.


We'll have to see then. I'm pretty excited about Xebec.


MrAnalogies said:


> 1. None of these conversations are concrete.


Yes, but some guys have more weight than others in terms of standing.


MrAnalogies said:


> 2. Well no but even boxers and MMA fighters do that to form strategies and analyze someone's ability. This is how Max Schmeling defeated Joe Louis.


Sure, the eye test is important. I'm just saying it's not the same as having real experience. A fighter who lost or drew even with another fighter will most likely have more of an idea on how to fight and defeat him, than someone he's seen fight but has never fought before.



MrAnalogies said:


> 3. I think I addressed that? And I'm sure there's footage of the admirals in action if he never saw the broadcast.


Alright then.


MrAnalogies said:


> Because Oda, like many mangaka, often refuses to actually draw conclusive battles between named characters who aren't straw hats. We already knew Teach would beat Marco, the writing was on the wall. We had seen both Teach and Marco's abilities, yet he refused to show us a single panel. It wasn't like Marco was being saved as a future opponent. Same thing with Aokiji and Akainu, just a lame info dump. Kaido vs Shanks, not a single page. Mangakas don't like showing conclusive battles for potential future antagonists.


While I agree with this premise in general, I don't think it helps Yamato's case at all.

Teach beating Marco was something that was told to us, and it was stated that they could crushed "overwhelmingly".

Akainu/Aokiji fought for 10 days, before one of them fell. So we can infer it was an extremely close battle where both were pushed to their limits. This level of parity was symbolised by Punk Hazard being split evenly between their elements.

Kaido VS Shanks is again different, because they might not have even fought (Shanks showing up unscathed). Yet we know they are peers due to both being Yonko.

Yamato doesn't get that treatment or portrayal relative to some of the above because she herself admitted inferiority, and was eventually overwhelmed/overpowered. It didn't even take that long either, and that you have to factor in the sheer amount of opponents that Kaido had fought prior to dealing with Yamato.

That kind of portrayal has never been the case if Kaido was up against a legitimate Yonko like Shanks, or if Akainu was fighting someone who was his own equal. Yamato didn't get that kind of portrayal, because she was never equal to Kaido in the first place. She had fought him time and time again in the past, but always lost. She held her own for a bit, but Oda _chose _to show us that she was overpowered.



MrAnalogies said:


> Disagree that Zoro is even close to yonko level.


Okay.


----------



## Turrin (May 24, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> The statement isn't wrong. He believed no one could take him down except joyboy.
> 
> Teach is actually stronger than WB by quite a bit given that he can create black holes. A black holes is at least star level for AP, and yet he cannot defeat Kaido.
> 
> So Kaido is star+ for durability and Joyboy is star++ for AP.


I already explained this. He says someone who can beat him *“doesn’t exist”*. This means he ether thinks Joy Boy doesn’t presently exist (*wrong*) or he changed his mind about Joy Boy being able to defeat him (*wrong*). Please explain where “doesn’t exist” isn’t *wrong*. Just saying he isn’t wrong, isn’t addressing anything I said.
—-
Find me several sources calling Teach star level and then we can talk otherwise this is a desperate deflection attempt to avoid conceding this point


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## MrAnalogies (May 24, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I already explained this. He says someone who can beat him *“doesn’t exist”*. This means he ether thinks Joy Boy doesn’t presently exist (*wrong*) or he changed his mind about Joy Boy being able to defeat him (*wrong*). Please explain where “doesn’t exist” isn’t *wrong*. Just saying he isn’t wrong, isn’t addressing anything I said.
> —-
> Find me several sources calling Teach star level and then we can talk otherwise this is a desperate deflection attempt to avoid conceding this point


Nope, you just lack reading comprehension. Way back in the rooftop chapters when he knocked Luffy off the onigashama skull he was disappointed he couldn't be joyboy. It has been his intention from the beginning to find joyboy, the only one who can give him that amazing battle he's been craving. The chapter where he says no one can take him down is much later, and he even asked Luffy who he is. Kaido doesn't realize it's joyboy until Luffy uses the giant islands sized fist and remembers telling king what Joyboy's destiny is. When he had this conversation with king it was way before the raid. 

I don't need to address what you said because it isn't anywhere in the manga. Kaido never once said joyboy doesn't exist, you're making things up as usual. He knew jobyoy would appear in wano just like Oden and was trying to find him.

Teach is star level if he can create a black hole. You apparently need to study up on black holes chap.


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## Turrin (May 24, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Nope, you just lack reading comprehension. Way back in the rooftop chapters when he knocked Luffy off the onigashama skull he was disappointed he couldn't be joyboy. It has been his intention from the beginning to find joyboy, the only one who can give him that amazing battle he's been craving. The chapter where he says no one can take him down is much later, and he even asked Luffy who he is. *Kaido doesn't realize it's joyboy unti*l Luffy uses the giant islands sized fist and remembers telling king what Joyboy's destiny is. When he had this conversation with king it was way before the raid.
> 
> I don't need to address what you said because it isn't anywhere in the manga. Kaido never once said joyboy doesn't exist, you're making things up as usual. He knew jobyoy would appear in wano just like Oden and was trying to find him.
> 
> Teach is star level if he can create a black hole. You apparently need to study up on black holes chap.


So if Kaidou didn’t realize Luffy was Joy Boy, he was wrong lol. Don’t talk to me about lacking reading comprehension when your going to openly admit he was wrong without realizing it in your own refutation.
—-
What does “No one” mean?

Define that, and then we can talk about what was said in the Manga.
—-
Show me a statement that says Teach’s attacks have the same power as a real black hole (and are not just superficially similar) and we can talk. Otherwise I’m just going to ignore this.


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## MrAnalogies (May 24, 2022)

Turrin said:


> So if Kaidou didn’t realize Luffy was Joy Boy, he was wrong lol. Don’t talk to me about lacking reading comprehension when your going to openly admit he was wrong without realizing it in your own refutation.
> —-
> What does “No one” mean?
> 
> ...


He wasn't wrong. He said only jobyoy can take him down, and Luffy turned out to be joyboy and took him down. 

You either didn't read the manga or you're pretending like kaido didn't tell king joyboy will beat him. 

Show me a statement that says Whitebeard's quakes have the same power as a real earthquake.


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## Turrin (May 24, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> He wasn't wrong. He said only jobyoy can take him down, and Luffy turned out to be joyboy and took him down.
> 
> You either didn't read the manga or you're pretending like kaido didn't tell king joyboy will beat him.
> 
> Show me a statement that says Whitebeard's quakes have the same power as a real earthquake.


“No one” Read it with me.
—-
I didn’t claim WB Quakes have the same power as real earth quakes…so why is this relevant


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## MrAnalogies (May 24, 2022)

Turrin said:


> “No one” Read it with me.
> —-
> I didn’t claim WB Quakes have the same power as real earth quakes…so why is this relevant


Read it with me: "Joyboy is the man who will defeat me one day". He told this to king several years ago.

Kaido didn't know if Joyboy was there yet. He defeated Luffy so he at first dismissed him as a candidate. When he said no one can take him down it was because he didn't know Luffy was joyboy. You are trying to find a contradiction where there isn't any. 

Therefore Kaido>Teach. Kaido is above planet level in durability bare minimum if the gura fruit user can literally use planet level AP. Cry if you want. I suggest you read the actual manga instead of always putting your own spin on things. 

There is no reason to believe Blackbeard's black holes are different from real ones when Aces fire acts like real fire, Aokijis ice is like real ice, etc. More evidence that you need to read the manga again.


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## Turrin (May 24, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Read it with me: "Joyboy is the man who will defeat me one day". He told this to king several years ago.
> 
> Kaido didn't know if Joyboy was there yet. He defeated Luffy so he at first dismissed him as a candidate. When he said no one can take him down it was because he didn't know Luffy was joyboy. You are trying to find a contradiction where there isn't any.
> 
> ...


Read with me if Kaidou didn’t think Joy Boy was there yet he was *wrong*. 
—-
Acts like a Black Hole sure. Has the same AP as one, that’s on you to prove bud.


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## MrAnalogies (May 24, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Read with me if Kaidou didn’t think Joy Boy was there yet he was *wrong*.
> —-
> Acts like a Black Hole sure. Has the same AP as one, that’s on you to prove bud.


Him being wrong that Luffy wasn't joyboy doesn't mean he was wrong that nobody else could take him down. Those are two different things. At this point you're arguing just to argue. 

Even a small black hole can destroy a planet. 

Let me know when you're done carefully re reading the chapters where Kaido mentions joyboy and you've read a bit more on black holes. Until then, cheers.


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## Turrin (May 24, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> Him being wrong that Luffy wasn't joyboy doesn't mean he was wrong that nobody else could take him down. Those are two different things. At this point you're arguing just to argue.
> 
> Even a small black hole can destroy a planet.
> 
> Let me know when you're done carefully re reading the chapters where Kaido mentions joyboy and you've read a bit more on black holes. Until then, cheers.


No, but what it means is, since he clearly underestimated Luffy’s potential, he could easily be underestimating Teach’s
—-
Cool so proof it has the same AP as a Small black hole. Otherwise this continues to be a desperate false equivalency your using to deflect from conceding the point


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