# Garp vs. Akainu



## Shanks (Mar 14, 2014)

Both pre-skip versions.

In character
Marineford Empty
20 meters
Full knowledge

I know that most of you would jump into the Akainu band wagon, but I curious on your thoughts about these quotes:



			
				Eiichiro Oda said:
			
		

> It is impossible for Akainu to kill Garp. It doesn't matter who is the stronger, Akainu would never can kill Garp even if there were 1000 lifetimes to try.



Source: 



			
				Eiichiro Oda said:
			
		

> Many people say it will take days, because Akainu and Aokiji did fight for days. But Akainu and Aokiji = two logias with magma versus ice. If it is two different monsters, the fight will not last days, will it? Didn't Whitebeard and Akainu fight that lasted minutes? Or as I remember it..... P:


Source:


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## Freechoice (Mar 14, 2014)

I believe Garp > Akainu at MF.

Akainu is too butthurt to be taken seriously.


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## Goomoonryong (Mar 14, 2014)

Could go either way extreme diff.


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## Magician (Mar 14, 2014)

Came straight from Goda's mouth. 

Garp >> Akainu.


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## Lawliet (Mar 14, 2014)

Either way, but I'm leaning towards akainu. The next generation always surpasses the ones before. Just like how luffy will surpass roger, these people will be the opponents that make it possible for luffy to surpass roger. I know how someone will just jump and get everything I said wrong.


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## Butters (Mar 14, 2014)

If Luffy is going to surpass Roger then it would only be appropriate for Smoker to surpass Garp since they have a similar relationship and are actually part of the same generation. 

OT: On Marineford it was pretty much a toss-up. Currently Akainu would win without a doubt.


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## trance (Mar 14, 2014)

IMO, Akainu takes it but with extreme difficulty.


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## 2Broken (Mar 14, 2014)

Not only do I think Akainu is overall superior to Garp, I also think he is a nightmare matchup for the old man. 

Akainu mid diff.


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## tanman (Mar 15, 2014)

"Oda" is probably wrong on this one.


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## Slenderman (Mar 15, 2014)

Akainu high-extreme diff.


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## Magician (Mar 15, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Not only do I think Akainu is overall superior to Garp, I also think he is a nightmare matchup for the old man.
> 
> *Akainu mid diff.*



Woah.

Akainu should win extreme difficulty, imo.


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## Sanji (Mar 15, 2014)

Akainu extreme diff.


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## Rob (Mar 15, 2014)

EoS Sakazuki>Prime Garp>Current Sakazuki>Old Garp>MF Sakazuki 

3 different versions of Sakazuki 

Let the rustling commence


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## Kid (Mar 15, 2014)

Monkey D Garp takes it pre skip


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## GrizzlyClaws (Mar 15, 2014)

i am sure Akainu was the strongest marine soldier in marineford.

i say akainu wins this with a 65/35 chance.


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## Mihawk (Mar 15, 2014)

Akainu very high diff


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## Shanks (Mar 15, 2014)

Why do people say Akainu Extreme difficulties, instead of Extreme difficulties going either way?  I mean, if it's extreme to the point of the 10 days battle, then it could go either way and IMO Aokiji would win between 4 - 5 times if they fight 10 separate fair battles.


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## hurrrrrrrd (Mar 15, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> EoS Sakazuki>Prime Garp>Current Sakazuki>Old Garp>MF Sakazuki
> 
> 3 different versions of Sakazuki
> 
> Let the rustling commence



This. Exactly this.
Garp takes it extreme diff.


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## Kaiser (Mar 15, 2014)

Akainu very high difficulty


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## rext1 (Mar 15, 2014)

My opinion is/was that at MF Akainu was indeed the strongest marine. Without a haxx DF like WB to counteract the inevitable slide in combat proficiency you experience with aging. 

I still believe geezer Garp is a top-tier though. So it would be extreme-diff. Akainu's also a very bad match-up for a fist-only brawler like Garp.


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## Karashi (Mar 16, 2014)

Butters said:


> If Luffy is going to surpass Roger then it would only be appropriate for Smoker to surpass Garp since they have a similar relationship and are actually part of the same generation.
> 
> OT: On Marineford it was pretty much a toss-up. Currently Akainu would win without a doubt.



Smoker is a punching bag. Nothing more.


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## TheWiggian (Mar 16, 2014)

Garp extreme diff


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## 2Broken (Mar 16, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Woah.
> 
> Akainu should win extreme difficulty, imo.



Extreme difficulty implies the fight could go either way and imo Old Garp has shown nothing to even consider that possibility.

High diff means Akainu would have a large amount of difficulty getting his win. Depending on how you view Garp's hype I can see how someone could reach that conclusion.

Personally I think Garp is generally over hyped and I see him getting mid diffed over high diffed against Akainu.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 16, 2014)

Despite being a durability monster, one Haki-infused punch is going to ruin Akainu's day. 

Garp's punches are likely stronger than Whitebeard's quakes - in direct contact - but he lacks AoE like such fighters.

I've got a feeling that Garp was the only person capable of fighting Whitebeard equally (at MF).


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## 2Broken (Mar 16, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Despite being a durability monster, one Haki-infused punch is going to ruin Akainu's day.



No not really, but punching super hot magma with his bare fist will ruin Garp's day.




King Itachi said:


> *Garp's punches are likely stronger than Whitebeard's quakes* - in direct contact - but he lacks AoE like such fighters.



.....I seriously don't know how you could believe the bolded. AOE can be important in a fight, especially is there is a significant difference in the mobility of the fighters.



King Itachi said:


> I've got a feeling that Garp was the only person capable of fighting Whitebeard equally (at MF)



Boy i'll tell yah that Garp wank is something else.


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## trance (Mar 16, 2014)

I believe that Garp is sometimes overrated but mid difficulty isn't doing him enough justice IMO.


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## ds800 (Mar 16, 2014)

tanman said:


> "Oda" is probably wrong on this one.



In my opinion I see it going either way.

However if the author did say garp is stronger, well, he made the entire series, came up with the characters and there abilities, if he says so, we really don't have the right to say he's wrong...


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## Goomoonryong (Mar 16, 2014)

ds800 said:


> In my opinion I see it going either way.
> 
> However if the author did say garp is stronger, well, he made the entire series, came up with the characters and there abilities, if he says so, we really don't have the right to say he's wrong...


You do realize the "Oda" he's talking about is just some random guy on these forums.


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## ds800 (Mar 16, 2014)

Oh.. sorry bout that, I apologize


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 17, 2014)

@2Broken

Marco, Whitebeard's strongest commander, got *effortlessly* punched back and sent flying by Garp, and no Admiral was able to put this guy down (even Sakazuki). 
Did you see Marco trying to progress afterward? 

After the fact, WB acknowledged Garp by his own name - not "brat" - which is what he called the Admirals, who are presumably "elite of the elite" within their group; the man's hype is ridiculous. 

- Fighting Roger to a stalemate on numerous occasions...
- Tossing cannonballs as large as pirate ships like nothing (even stronger than Jozu)...
- Crushed eight mountains using mere fists and ultimately defeated the guy that can bust continents with head strikes...
- Possibly the strongest BH in One Piece...
- "Hero" of the Marines...
- Being related to Dragon and Luffy...

Turning down the position of Fleet Admiral and sitting in the middle chair like a boss? 
The Gorosei must respect his power greatly, being Dragon's father and Luffy's grandfather. 

To top it off, he acts of his own accord and doesn't give a shit about what the WG thinks.


It isn't such a far-fetched notion to think Garp's stronger than Akainu, considering he'd cornered Roger on several occasions - the guy who had been Whitebeard's rival, mind you - and he felt pretty confident about tearing Sakazuki apart (limb by limb), even in old age.

Something about Garp... Compared to the others, he's just in another league.


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## trance (Mar 17, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> After the fact, WB acknowledged Garp by his own name - not "brat" - which is what he called the Admirals, who are presumably "elite of the elite" within their group; the man's hype is ridiculous.



Not really an indicator that "Garp > Akainu".

He also calls Sengoku by his name but I doubt Sengoku can beat Akainu. He was merely showing Garp and Sengoku a measure of respect but that's not to taken as a comparison made between them and the Admirals. He also called Shanks a "brat". Do you see Garp beating Shanks? He called Luffy by his name at MarineFord. Does that mean Luffy can beat Akainu?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 17, 2014)

The Admirals and Garp/Sengoku challenge Whitebeard's power, and he didn't seem to respect Sengoku; that's how I viewed the situation, at least. Among the Marines, Garp was the only person he viewed highly.

Same goes for Shanks... The guy is one of WB's biggest foes. 

Do you remember how the guy approached WB's crew? 
I'd be really pissed, too, despite understanding it's an enemy ship.

I can't really say if he's stronger or weaker than the legends, though.

If I'm not mistaken, he called Luffy "brat" at first; he changed his wording after realizing Luffy's resolve and willpower.


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## Shanks (Mar 17, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> @2Broken
> 
> Marco, Whitebeard's strongest commander, got *effortlessly* punched back and sent flying by Garp, and no Admiral was able to put this guy down (even Sakazuki).
> Did you see Marco trying to progress afterward?
> ...




You made a lot of sense, but then the Akainu supporters will simply try to down play and go with the old man argument again.


*@2Broken* if you believe Garp, a CoA close range brawler is a bad match for Akainu, then I guess you believe EoS Luffy is also a bad match and Luffy will need to be significantly stronger than Akainu in order to barely beat him right?

EOS Sanji is probably a bad Match for Kizaru, because light speed kick have explosive power that can crush skins and bones, right?

Akainu is also a bad match for Jozu, because Magma can't destroy diamond, right?

Wouldn't that also make the Dark King a bad match for the C3, because Haki is a counter to DF?


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## trance (Mar 17, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> The Admirals and Garp/Sengoku challenge Whitebeard's power, *and he didn't seem to respect Sengoku*; that's how I viewed the situation, at least. Among the Marines, Garp was the only person he viewed highly.



If anything, Whitebeard at least respected Sengoku's intelligence as he praised him at MarineFord.

Also, Whitebeard didn't view Garp as highly as you imply. When Garp knocked Marco down, Whitebeard told his men not to be afraid and even said Garp was 



> I can't really say if he's stronger or weaker than the legends, though.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, he called Luffy "brat" at first; he changed his wording after realizing Luffy's resolve and willpower.



Do you see that using this argument is faulty, though?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> If anything, Whitebeard at least respected Sengoku's intelligence as he praised him at MarineFord.



I'll give you that.
I don't think he respected Garp/Sengoku similarly, though. 

Garp has been portrayed as the stronger fighter, and his character plays a bigger role in the story; it's only natural to put the guy on such a pedestal. 



> Also, Whitebeard didn't view Garp as highly as you imply. When Garp knocked Marco down, Whitebeard told his men not to be afraid and even said Garp was



He's going to encourage his men, of course. 
Do you think any of those men are going to approach Garp, though?
...after seeing the guy humiliate their strongest commander that Admirals couldn't take down??

If I were Whitebeard, I'd be fucking hoping that guy stays in the seat; there's a reason why he didn't fight during Marineford, after all. 

When all had been lost, Sengoku was saying the same crap upon hearing Blackbeard's determination to destroy MF.

Don't get me wrong... I'm a Marco fan, but Garp is clearly much stronger.



> Do you see that using this argument is faulty, though?



Well, no.
Whitebeard doesn't refer to Garp differently because of era; it's the hype and skill that are involved. He stepped with Roger in their time, who had been the rival of Whitebeard. 

The Admirals are different cases, however, as he believed the commanders would handle them. Evidently, Marco was basically on the same level, but Garp made easy work of him. 

Regarding the other part, he referred to Shanks as "brat" due to circumstance; his young age and the title might have been considered, too. Additionally, Whitebeard really saw the willpower in Luffy (even Marco), so that's why his temperament changed over time.


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## trance (Mar 17, 2014)

Semantics really. 

Anyway, I'm not in for a full-out debate. I just don't think the not referring to Garp as a brat part should be a valid indicator of strength. Everything I'm meh on.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Semantics really.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not in for a full-out debate. I just don't think the not referring to Garp as a brat part should be a valid indicator of strength. Everything I'm meh on.



Fair enough. 

I think the statement goes along with Garp's hype/portrayal, though; it's a combination of the sorts.


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## 2Broken (Mar 17, 2014)

Sabo said:


> *@2Broken* if you believe Garp, a CoA close range brawler is a bad match for Akainu, then I guess you believe EoS Luffy is also a bad match and Luffy will need to be significantly stronger than Akainu in order to barely beat him right?



Garp is a bad matchup up for Akainu, because he has to freaking punch him with his bare hands to win. In manga Akainu's magma is so hot it can instantly burn Jinbe's hands even though they were covered in water, burn Ace even though he is made of fire and  completely vaporize a giant iceberg. Knowing all that Garp does not have the haki feats (I doubt anyone does) to say he can punch Akainu with his bare hands and not get burned especially when no other character has been shown to do it.

EoS Luffy has nothing to to do with what I am talking about, we don't know anything about the capabilities of EoS Luffy, so you trying to make some relation about him here is nonsense.



Sabo said:


> EOS Sanji is probably a bad Match for Kizaru, because light speed kick have explosive power that can crush skins and bones, right?



What are you talking about? EoS Sanji nor Kizaru have anything to do with this matchup and any kick strong enough can crush bones.



Sabo said:


> Akainu is also a bad match for Jozu, because Magma can't destroy diamond, right?



Diamond will protect Jozu sure, but it seems to be the case that Jozu can't freely move whatever part of him he turns to diamond. Taking that into account he is still screwed against Akainu, but again this has nothing to do with Garp vs. Akainu



Sabo said:


> Wouldn't that also make the Dark King a bad match for the C3, because Haki is a counter to DF?



 The C3 also have haki and haki isn't > devil fruit there is nothing there to indicate a bad matchup.

All you did in your post make random matchups that have nothing to do with my post and it really puzzles me why you brought up EoS characters at all. The reason Akainu is a bad matchup for Garp is because Akainu is made of super hot magma and Garp's only effective form of offense is his fists. It is already bad enough to have to fight up close with someone who can casually burn your face off, but on top of that Akainu have proven to be able to take an island wrecking punch and get up afterwards; Garp's hands would be liquid long before he ever critically hurt Akainu and an successful counteract from Akainu is match ending.


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## Mihawk (Mar 17, 2014)

Sabo said:


> the Akainu supporters will simply try to down play and go with the old man argument again.



I'm pretty sure the Akainu supporters have more concrete reasons in their argument, than the "old man" argument against Garp.


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## Shanks (Mar 17, 2014)

My response in bold.



2Broken said:


> 1. Garp is a bad matchup up for Akainu, because he has to freaking punch him with his bare hands to win. In manga Akainu's magma is so hot it can instantly burn Jinbe's hands even though they were covered in water, burn Ace even though he is made of fire and  completely vaporize a giant iceberg. Knowing all that Garp does not have the haki feats (I doubt anyone does) to say he can punch Akainu with his bare hands and not get burned especially when no other character has been shown to do it.
> 
> 
> *Jinbe is a bad example, because he was significantly weaker than Akainu. The examples provided implied that match up no longer matters when haki comes into play especially when it comes down to two people of the same level therefore comes down who's stronger overall. I guess you where just either too dense to try and understand or maybe was too defensive to care about logic and common sense.*
> ...






Doflαmingo said:


> I'm pretty sure the Akainu supporters have more concrete reasons in their argument, than the "old man" argument against Garp.




And what would those be?


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## TheMostReasonableDebater6 (Mar 17, 2014)

Stop saying things like, "Akainu wins mid diff or high diff or extreme diff".  You're not validating jack and you aren't respected if you say utter incomprehensible words without substantiating your points at all.
I believe Garp wins this one and to be completely honest, it really isn't all that close.
First off, haven't any of you ever wondered by Fleet Admiral Sengoku and "The Hero Garp" sit by Ace?  It's because they are the final line of defense.  The Admirals could just as well sit there and have waited, but they don't because they need to fight, in case WB makes it to Ace.  Garp and WB are equals, and whoever made the preposterous comment that Sengoku can't beat Akainu needs to leave this forum.  There is a reason as to why he, Sengoku, wass still the Fleet Admiral. Garp and Sengoku are on equal terms with Whitebeard, who was stronger than Akainu, with a crater in his chest mind you.
Second, he beat Don Chinjao, a man hyped to be a continent buster, (although we know that is not true) in a fight of brute strength!  Obviously, if Garp matches WB, we can all come to one conclusion.  Garp's punch is equal to WB's quake, meaning that the destructive capacities are relatively the same.  Now, going off of that, WB is able to destroy that red dog, Sakazuki, smashing his head.  Now, imagine a faster WB, one capable of throwing more than one punch or quake.  Garp can throw a barrage of mountain smashing punches coated with Armament Haki.  Sure, Akainu has Obs Haki.  So What?!  Obs Haki is overrated because WB was able to come up and surprise Akainu, who, common sensically, was focused on WB.  Another example is Luffy attacking Enel, but we won't go there right now.
Back on topic, Garp posses more feats than Akainu, with his brute strength and past, he is just more hyped and for reasons included.  The man cornered the Pirate King on several occasions, his crew featuring himself and Rayleigh, who fought on equal terms with Borsalino.  Fact is, Garp is stronger than Akainu, and Oda's comments are justified and now logically proven.
Garp wins high but not extreme difficulty.


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## Shanks (Mar 17, 2014)

$5 for anyone who guess who "TheMostReasonableDebater6" is correctly?


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## Unclear Justice (Mar 17, 2014)

Sabo said:


> $5 for anyone who guess who "TheMostReasonableDebater6" is correctly?



Is it you?


OT: Akainu wins high diff.


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## Shanks (Mar 17, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> Is it you?



Nope.


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## Vengeance (Mar 17, 2014)

Akainu very high difficulty.


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## Mihawk (Mar 17, 2014)

Sabo said:


> And what would those be?



His feats and current portrayal


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## 2Broken (Mar 17, 2014)

Sabo you are not even trying to discuss the same thing I am.

1. Jinbe is not a bad example and neither is Ace because the only point I was trying to get across is that Akainu is ridiculously hot. Haki and strength are not the reason he burned them, he burned them because of the heat his magma gives of; he even states he burned Ace simply because he is hotter. If he can burn those two so easily even though they have abilities to resist heat and casually burn a portion of the WSM's head off, why do you think he will have trouble burning Garp? Seriously what feat has Garp done with haki that makes you think he will be able to just laugh of the heat of the magma?

2. EoS Luffy has nothing to do with this argument because anything you say about him will be pure speculation. Sure Luffy is a brawler, but that that doesn't mean he will have the same set of techniques EoS that he does now. Maybe his CoC haki will turn out to be useful or maybe he will develop another gears that will give him an edge, we don't simply don't know what EoS Luffy is capable of, hell we don't even know if he will fight Akainu. Point is EoS Luffy is all speculation and has shit all to do with this conversation and bringing him up is not helping you get any point across.

3. EoS Sanji is all speculation too, plus putting him against Kizaru just makes the matchup completely irrelevant to what we are discussing. Kizaru doesn't give extreme heat from his body like Akainu does, he can pierce and cause explosions with his lasers and that makes him dangerous, but he is no more danger to a CQC fight than any other kind of fighter.

4. Where in  panel is Jozu in full diamond form. In fact show me a single panel of Jozu in full diamond form doing any kind of motion.

5. Smh Sabo the C3 effortlessly stopped that attack just by extending their arms. There is nothing about that scene to indicate they are inferior haki users. If Whitebeard had a large haki advantage over them he would have killed Kuzan when he stabbed him with his bisento. Rayleigh essentially told Luffy that haki is an effective way to deal with devil fruit users, because it allows you to get past any abnormal defense they have. Haki is not the weakness of devil fruit users. Seriously do you think someone becomes more susceptible to haki attacks after they eat a devil fruit?

6. Your examples are matchups that have nothing to do with Garp vs. Akainu. For some reason you seem to think haki has removed matchup advantages, which is ridiculous. Matchups still matter and always will, you don't suddenly get the ability to ignore the abilities of your  opponent once you get strong enough haki. Whitebeard is a bad matchup for Kuzan because he can vibrate out of being frozen, Jozu is a bad matchup for Vista because he can tank any attack Vista can do. Matchups matter bro, you know it and I know it.

If I had to guess I would say Shanks has better haki then Garp, but that is irrelevant. Again you have made a major assumption, you have assumed Shanks uses an ordinary iron sword. We know swords in one piece have grades and many are not like normal swords. Zoro made a comment on his sword being able to have a dinosaur step on it and not bend a millimeter (or something like that) and the sword Zoro is talking about is not even the highest grade of sword. Depending on the grade of sword Shanks has, the feat may be far less impressive than you think. Regardless it is much easier to reinforce a sword to the point of being able to block the magma than it is to reinforce bare hands.

As for Akainu vs. Aokiji, Lava can melt ice, but ice can cool Lava. In other words there is no advantage there, this is not pokemon.

Garp has not done a damn thing for me to think Akainu would have large amount of difficulty beating him. If you think Garp's hype suggests that than that's your opinion, but regardless Akainu is a terrible matchup for the old man. Garp is not putting down Akainu with a few punch if a couple of bloodlusted quake punches didn't and Garp has no haki feat to even suggest he could laugh off the magma given its heat. What I am saying is not nonsense, you just don't like it.


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## Mihawk (Mar 17, 2014)

Luffy's a different kind of brawler from Garp
Just as how Marco is a different kind of brawler from Jozu 

Garp is all about overpowering his opponents and concentrating a large amount of power on a focal point, being his fist, while imbued with his legendary haki.

Luffy has a plethora of different techniques courtesy of his devil fruit, and his moveset variety makes his fighting style deviate from the traditional brawler, IMO.


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## Butters (Mar 17, 2014)

Garp's fists wouldn't be burned after punching Akainu for the same reason Shanks' sword wasn't. Haki.


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## Magician (Mar 17, 2014)

Butters said:


> Garp's fists wouldn't be burned after punching Akainu for the same reason Shanks' sword wasn't. Haki.



^this.**


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## Beast (Mar 17, 2014)

Garp... high diff.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 17, 2014)

Sakazuki Extreme Difficulty . 

Garp didn't even fight, and when he did he punched Marco like a little chicken to the floor .


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## Beast (Mar 17, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Sakazuki Extreme Difficulty .
> 
> Garp didn't even fight, and when he did he punched Marco like a little chicken to the floor .


Confused at what your writing.


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## Akitō (Mar 17, 2014)

It's funny that you mentioned people not substantiating their points because you literally almost have no proof for any of your arguments. 



TheMostReasonableDebater6 said:


> First off, haven't any of you ever wondered by Fleet Admiral Sengoku and "The Hero Garp" sit by Ace?  It's because they are the final line of defense.



Why would them being the final line of defense make them the strongest? If anything, you should have your strongest people out on the front lines so that the enemies never have a chance of getting close to Ace and so that you minimize casualties. 

The reason why Sengoku was at the back was because his role isn't a combative one. The reason Garp was at the back was because he made a personal decision to sit next to Ace. If I remember correctly, he wasn't stationed there, so it had little to do with his strength. 



> Garp and WB are equals



Not even close. Where did you get this from? 



> There is a reason as to why he, Sengoku, wass still the Fleet Admiral.



Because when he was promoted, he was the most fit for the job. And it's also because he has arguably the best tactical mind in the Marines. The FA position is not a stronger position than the Admiral position.



> Garp's punch is equal to WB's quake



I wasn't aware that beating Don Chinjao's head-butt makes you equal to Whitebeard. Are you completely oblivious to the power structure of this manga? 



> WB is able to destroy that red dog, Sakazuki, smashing his head.



He was able to 'destroy' Sakazuki when he got the jump on him. He also suffered a more fatal injury in that engagement. So the implication you're making with this point is wrong.


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## Shanks (Mar 17, 2014)

Butters said:


> Garp's fists wouldn't be burned after punching Akainu for the same reason Shanks' sword wasn't. Haki.



That's what I've being elaborating on all along. I guess certain forum goers can never understand regardless of how many walls of text posted.


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## Slenderman (Mar 17, 2014)

Garp's COA is most likely stronger than Akainu's. As he did something Kiz and Akainu didn't do. He touched an on guard Marco in full phoenix form. Garp will have no problems touching Akainu it's just that Akainu is a tank.


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## trance (Mar 17, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Garp's COA is most likely stronger than Akainu's. As he did something Kiz and Akainu didn't do. He touched an on guard Marco in full phoenix form. Garp will have no problems touching Akainu it's just that Akainu is a tank.



Well, to be fair, Akainu was intercepted by Marco, so we don't entirely know what a punch actually intended for Marco would do in the process.


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## Slenderman (Mar 17, 2014)

> 1. Jinbe is not a bad example and neither is Ace because the only point I was trying to get across is that Akainu is ridiculously hot. Haki and strength are not the reason he burned them, he burned them because of the heat his magma gives of; he even states he burned Ace simply because he is hotter. If he can burn those two so easily even though they have abilities to resist heat and casually burn a portion of the WSM's head off, why do you think he will have trouble burning Garp? Seriously what feat has Garp done with haki that makes you think he will be able to just laugh of the heat of the magma?



He touched Marco's full phoenix form and sent him flying. Something Akainu and Kizaru were unable to do. That takes insane haki to hurt someone who can at will make admirals tangible. Besides the Akainu incident. But I have a good explanation if you try to counter that. 




> Garp has not done a damn thing for me to think Akainu would have large amount of difficulty beating him. If you think Garp's hype suggests that than that's your opinion, but regardless Akainu is a terrible matchup for the old man. Garp is not putting down Akainu with a few punch if a couple of bloodlusted quake punches didn't and Garp has no haki feat to even suggest he could laugh off the magma given its heat. What I am saying is not nonsense, you just don't like it.



Garp has shown better haki then Kizaru and Akainu. Garp can match the magma fists with his fists. Just like WB's quakes countered Akainu's magma. And Garp was actually able to flow his haki well during MF while such things didn't happen to WB.


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## Slenderman (Mar 17, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Well, to be fair, Akainu was intercepted by Marco, so we don't entirely know what a punch actually intended for Marco would do in the process.



I guess so. But I doubt he'd try to love tap anybody there. That man will fist anyone. That sounded so wrong


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## Shanks (Mar 17, 2014)

Woo woo woo, Slenderman, I never knew there would be a day we would be debating on the same team? The time has changed. 

I'll reply to all his post later today when I have spare time at work.


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## trance (Mar 17, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> I guess so. But I doubt he'd try to love tap anybody there. That man will fist anyone. That sounded so wrong



I'm not saying it was his weakest attack he hit Marco with but was it his absolute strongest? Do you see where I'm coming from?


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## Slenderman (Mar 17, 2014)

I guess you're right. I'll gladly concede the point.


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## Kid (Mar 17, 2014)

It's unarguable that Garp doesn't have a stronger haki than Akainu, the man has been fighting at the highest level with ONLY his fists hence his epithet '' The Fist ''.

So that means ultimate haki skills, the punch he used on marco was probably for him a casual punch.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 17, 2014)

MasterBeast said:


> Confused at what your writing.



You're . And I was explaining why that would be Extreme Difficulty, not arguing for Garp/Sakazuki . I was arguing that it would be Extreme because Garp could do that . Also:



*Spoiler*: __ 



It's simple: Garp when he got serious he could punch Marco like a little bitch . People were saying " Nothing sugests Admiral level Garp " . Garp could handle easily what two Admirals couldn't do it casually (Punching Marco until he got out of his Phoenix form) . 

Of course Kizaru was playing with Marco, and Sakazuki had just taken the Strongest Point Blank attack in the whole series done by Whitebeard .

Kizaru was not at 100% because he was kidding . 

Sakazuki was not at 100% because he was shot by WB(Also the attack was made to hit Luffy, so different strenghts) .

Garp is an Admiral level character proven(Of course not only for punching Marco, but because he didn't age with illness, was training people everyday, got his duties and etc, so it kept him in shape) . Garp in his prime is > Admiral level .

So, we established that Garp is Admiral level . But does Garp has strenght to kill Sakazuki ? Yes . Does Sakazuki have strenght to kill Garp ? Yes . (Replicate this with speed and stats)

So we know they're both pretty much equals in various aspects . Why am I going with Sakazuki ? Sakazuki is younger, fought 10 days straight with another Admiral level, took the series' strongest punch . If Garp had the stats that he has right now and Sakazuki's age, then it would end up in a draw, Sakazuki simply outdoes Garp in the long-run department because they can fight like equals . It would be like Kuzan vs Sakazuki situation(The fight would take long as hell), but in this case would have the long-run thing .

Also, by the way, " Marco vs Sakazuki " Sakazuki would lose to Garp because he was pretty much fucked up from WB .

It's also pretty much like the Rayleigh vs Kizaru thing . Kizaru would win in long run .




I don't think that the above thinking is 100% right but it makes sense to me .


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## trance (Mar 17, 2014)

Akainu hitting Marco was *before* his bout with Whitebeard.


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## Slenderman (Mar 17, 2014)

Garp an Shanks are probably the best haki users in the verse. These guys have no df help and are at the top echelon of the leagues in their respective time.


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## Shanks (Mar 17, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> His feats and current portrayal


Guess I'll wait for a hardcore Akainu supporter who believe he can mid dif other top tiers on those feats and portrayal then.



Doflαmingo said:


> Luffy's a different kind of brawler from Garp
> Just as how Marco is a different kind of brawler from Jozu
> 
> Garp is all about overpowering his opponents and concentrating a large amount of power on a focal point, being his fist, while imbued with his legendary haki.
> ...



Marco is different because he can regen, so he wouldn't get burn even if he doesn't have enough CoA to cover his foot.

The second paragraph is exactly what Luffy is also.

The third paragraph, while it's true, it doesn't change the fact that his fighting style is fisting his opponent and his fist is required to touch Akainu in order to damage him.


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## Mihawk (Mar 17, 2014)

> Guess I'll wait for a hardcore Akainu supporter who believe he can mid dif other top tiers on those feats and portrayal then.



I'm not saying that he can mid-diff him 

With all due respect, it was aimed at your post which was addressing "Akainu supporters", so I took it as a statement on a general note. 



> Marco is different because he can regen, so he wouldn't get burn even if he doesn't have enough CoA to cover his foot.



I'm saying that the reason why brawlers like Luffy, Marco, and Jozu all differ from Garp, is because their devil fruit is the main aspect of the fighting style. Garp is a pure haki user with no devil fruit ability attached. 

My point was that we can't use one example of a brawler to justify brawlers in general, as they all differ, and this is something I see being used around a lot. There are different kind of brawlers, is what I'm saying, and not all of them are accurate representations for the other. 

Akainu is also a brawler, like Garp, and also uses fist-oriented attacks, but he isn't just restricted to being a brawler, when you factor in techs like Inugami Guren, Ryusei Kazan, and Dai Funka(pretty much a glorified version Elephant Gun, with magma properties) into the equation. 



> The second paragraph is exactly what Luffy is also.



I'll have to disagree on this. He isn't exactly like that at all. 

Reasons below



> The third paragraph, while it's true, it doesn't change the fact that his fighting style is fisting his opponent and his fist is required to touch Akainu in order to damage him.



Luffy has a wider plethora of moves than Garp has shown so far(doesn't make him anywhere near as strong though of course), courtesy of his devil fruit. Red Hawk, Elephant Gun, Elephant Gattling, Grizzly magnum, Thor Elephant Gun, Jet Gattling, Jet Pistol, and many of his stretching techniques are exclusive due to his devil fruit(obviously), with a distinction of range, compared to Garp.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 The only way his fighting style would be identical to Garp's, is if we take all of that out of the equation, and focus simply on Luffy's tendency to sometimes coat his fists in Hardening and exchange blows in close range(such as when he punched CC in the face, and when he fought Z for the last time). 





*Spoiler*: __ 



(In other words, just because both of them need to make contact with their fists, doesn't make their fighting styles identical or reminiscent to each other, meaning that a fight between Garp & Akainu, would play out very differently from a fight between Akainu & Luffy. 

You have Ace & Akainu, whom are brawlers with pyrokinesis properties that specialize at close and long range, similar in that regard). 




Garp on the other hand, doesn't seem to rely on long range attacks sans throwing gigantic cannonballs(which is useless here), and seems to be more about getting up into the opponent's face for direct contact. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



By focusing a large amount of power into a focal point of his fists, I meant that as shown with Marco & DCJ, he seems to concentrate a lot of momentum and strength into attacking in one instance, whereas Luffy is known for his knack of using rapid barrages. 



Oh, and I don't think Akainu can defeat Garp with mid-difficulty. I apologise if I gave you such an impression. At the very least, I believe that in Marineford, he could have given him high difficulty, and at most, extreme. 

2 years passing could be the double edged sword which would make all the difference though.


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## Shanks (Mar 17, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Sabo you are not even trying to discuss the same thing I am.



You're wrong. All this time, I've being addressing your point of Garp being a bad match type and to actually put the time end effort to make you understand, whereas I could have easily posted a short response like butters instead.

And why are you holding your head? Do you have a migraine? Maybe start enjoying life a little more and stop being "2Broken" all the time. Have you tried a slurpee? It's good stuff.



2Broken said:


> 1. Jinbe is not a bad example and neither is Ace because the only point I was trying to get across is that Akainu is ridiculously hot. Haki and strength are not the reason he burned them, he burned them because of the heat his magma gives of; he even states he burned Ace simply because he is hotter. If he can burn those two so easily even though they have abilities to resist heat and casually burn a portion of the WSM's head off, why do you think he will have trouble burning Garp? Seriously what feat has Garp done with haki that makes you think he will be able to just laugh of the heat of the magma?



Those two are bad example because they are simply weaker that your average top tier. Why Jinbe got burned is a combination of stronger Haki, Base Stats, DF mastery and so forth. Look at it this way, if Akainu's speed and base stats is the same as Enel, would he be able to burn ace or melt WB's face as he did? WB will completely and utterly destroy him without good base stats and strong Haki, while Ace will still stand a good chance of winning despite the being a "Bad Match".

Once again, it doesn't take a genius to understand that Haki can increase your defensive to make the match type less of an issue and it can also increase the offensive and making Magma more devastating.

When determining who's going to win when two monster clashes, it all comes down to who is stronger overall when taking everything in consideration. 

Also, Ace & WB being burned is also a completely different issue. On even grounds, Akainu wouldn't be able to do it so easily, but that is a topic for another day.





2Broken said:


> 2. EoS Luffy has nothing to do with this argument because anything you say about him will be pure speculation. Sure Luffy is a brawler, but that that doesn't mean he will have the same set of techniques EoS that he does now. Maybe his CoC haki will turn out to be useful or maybe he will develop another gears that will give him an edge, we don't simply don't know what EoS Luffy is capable of, hell we don't even know if he will fight Akainu. Point is EoS Luffy is all speculation and has shit all to do with this conversation and bringing him up is not helping you get any point across.



No, it's not pure speculation, but more an intellectual assumption based on 15 years of portrayal used by the author. He start off as a brawler, gained gears and still a brawler, gained haki and still a brawler and then did 2 years of training and is still a brawler. It's highly unlikely that it will change just because you don't know for sure. Once again, I ask you do you have some while theory believe that he would gain certain range attack outside of "Brawling"? CoC is a bad theory. Even if he has another gear, it's unlikely that he will completely change his fighting style.


What sort of Manga have you being reading if you truly believe that he's not going to fight and defeat Akainu by EoS?






2Broken said:


> 3. EoS Sanji is all speculation too, plus putting him against Kizaru just makes the matchup completely irrelevant to what we are discussing. Kizaru doesn't give extreme heat from his body like Akainu does, he can pierce and cause explosions with his lasers and that makes him dangerous, but he is no more danger to a CQC fight than any other kind of fighter.



Light speed kick explode on impact mean anything to you?



2Broken said:


> 4. Where in  panel is Jozu in full diamond form. In fact show me a single panel of Jozu in full diamond form doing any kind of motion.



He used both arms to defect the slash on that page and at least the majority of his body (except for the upper left of his body), which is essential full diamond form. Clearly he was moving his arms to deflect the slash. To make things up like he can't move when covered with diamond is a little desperate.



2Broken said:


> 5. Smh Sabo the C3 effortlessly stopped that attack just by extending their arms. There is nothing about that scene to indicate they are inferior haki users. If Whitebeard had a large haki advantage over them he would have killed Kuzan when he stabbed him with his bisento. Rayleigh essentially told Luffy that haki is an effective way to deal with devil fruit users, because it allows you to get past any abnormal defense they have. Haki is not the weakness of devil fruit users. Seriously do you think someone becomes more susceptible to haki attacks after they eat a devil fruit?



It's based on portrayal. Not saying that that all 3 Admiral's haki is needed, but the author chose to use all 3. I never said WB have haki advantage, but I did implied that WB is stronger with all stats considered (based states, DF powers & Haki) compare to the Admirals, while I also stated that Garp have superior haki.

WB's encounter with Aokiji is more of slow reaction time. It has nothing to do with Haki. WB till that point have being heavily handicapped to the point that he can't even dodge fodder marines, so that's a bad example.

When did i say Haki is a weakness of DF? I said "bad match up for DF users", but note I also explicitly said we still need to take into consideration everything (base stats, DF and haki).

I don't think someone is more susceptible haki attacks after they eat a devil fruit, but they will certainly be more susceptible to haki attacks for the haki user have stronger overall stats.





2Broken said:


> 6. Your examples are matchups that have nothing to do with Garp vs. Akainu. For some reason you seem to think haki has removed matchup advantages, which is ridiculous. Matchups still matter and always will, you don't suddenly get the ability to ignore the abilities of your  opponent once you get strong enough haki. Whitebeard is a bad matchup for Kuzan because he can vibrate out of being frozen, Jozu is a bad matchup for Vista because he can tank any attack Vista can do. Matchups matter bro, you know it and I know it.



It has everything to do with Garp vs. Akainu if only you sit back, think and stop trying to be so defensive. Haki doesn't completely remove matchup advantages, but it certainly closes the gap and the stronger sides are, the match up will become alot more irrelevant when people have more tools under their arsenal such as stronger haki.

Most members in this thread would give Akainu high - extreme difficulties, but you use the "Match type" argument to push it down to mid difficulties which if I can summarise it into 1 word, it would be "Baloney".



2Broken said:


> If I had to guess I would say Shanks has better haki then Garp, but that is irrelevant. Again you have made a major assumption, you have assumed Shanks uses an ordinary iron sword. We know swords in one piece have grades and many are not like normal swords. Zoro made a comment on his sword being able to have a dinosaur step on it and not bend a millimeter (or something like that) and the sword Zoro is talking about is not even the highest grade of sword. Depending on the grade of sword Shanks has, the feat may be far less impressive than you think. Regardless it is much easier to reinforce a sword to the point of being able to block the magma than it is to reinforce bare hands.



Now this sword grade argument is just desperate.. seriously? So if Coby holding Yoro is enough to also block Dai Funka?

You agree that Shanks has stronger haki, hence agree that Haki could make a difference to overcoming Haki, that's a good start, so it's just a match of whether Garp has enough haki to make a different now right?

Maybe just go back and read some post of the other members here which also answers that question quite well. Let me know if you still don't understand and I can certainly elaborate on those further.







2Broken said:


> As for Akainu vs. Aokiji, Lava can melt ice, but ice can cool Lava. In other words there is no advantage there, this is not pokemon.



Ryusei Kazan completely and utterly melts Ice age means anything to you? Ace melting pheasant beak means anything? Yes, this is not Pok?mon, so maybe stop relying too much on “Match Type”. 


And your response here continues to validate my point. How ice works with Magma, is more or less how CoA can be used as a level of defences cool down the heat before it reaches the user’s body. It’s like how a fireman wearing fire proof uniform.






2Broken said:


> Garp has not done a damn thing for me to think Akainu would have large amount of difficulty beating him. If you think Garp's hype suggests that than that's your opinion, but regardless Akainu is a terrible matchup for the old man. Garp is not putting down Akainu with a few punch if a couple of bloodlusted quake punches didn't and Garp has no haki feat to even suggest he could laugh off the magma given its heat. What I am saying is not nonsense, you just don't like it.



Landing a blow on Marco’s body whereas the can’t touch it means anything? 

Garp is a pure strength bawler with usage of CoA to improve his strength through training means anything? If he doesn’t have strong CoA, then are you suggesting maybe lifting weights and his muscle alone is enough to be a certify top tier.

C3’s main fighting abilities is their DF and their experience and training’s focus is devil mastery, but obviously have other thing going such as Haki and good base stats, where guys like Garp, Ray and Shanks are in more of a mindset improve their haki and strength through training and experience due to their fighting style.


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## Shanks (Mar 17, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> I'm not saying that he can mid-diff him
> 
> With all due respect, it was aimed at your post which was addressing "Akainu supporters", so I took it as a statement on a general note.
> 
> ...



Hmm, this wall of text was unnecessary. I never implied that you where one of those "Akainu Supporters" who believe he can mid dif. That's why I kept the response short, but are happy to discuss those feats and portrayal with anyone else who decides to downplay Garp. 

As for everything else, some I agree, other is meh, but that's not the point. My Luffy example with similarity to Garp in a sense that both of their fist (regardless of what punching move Luffy use) will need to have physical contact with guys like Akainu in order to hurt or damage him. Thor Elephant Gun while different to Garp's first, it's also similar in a sense that Luffy's physical fist touches Chinjao's head with the impact on 1 particular spot.


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## Genma1998 (Mar 17, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> EoS Sakazuki>Prime Garp>Current Sakazuki>Old Garp>MF Sakazuki
> 
> 3 different versions of Sakazuki
> 
> Let the rustling commence



This sounds right to me. By hype it sounds like Garp was stronger at least in MF so I'll go with that since we don't have a lot of feats.

By the way, what does EoS mean??? Everyone's saying it and I'm just confused.


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## Goomoonryong (Mar 17, 2014)

^ It means end of series.


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## TheMostReasonableDebater6 (Mar 17, 2014)

Man I'm so glad you rebuked my points Akito, I was growing restless as I watched irrelevant arguments spawning left and right.  
You're ability to comprehend what I wrote is the most astounding trait you possess, more so than the nonsense that you seemingly spew every sentence.
I will now proceed to my rebuttal.
If Sengoku's role wasn't a combative one, then what was it, strategist and figurehead?  He isn't the current Queen Elizabeth lol.
Sengoku represents the very top fighter in the Marines.  He is the Fleet Admiral.  Sure, the Fleet Admiral's biggest responsibility is to ensure the Marine's victory through tactics and strategies; however,  he is also the figurehead of the Marines.  He is the one person even the Admirals take orders from.  It's because he is known to be one of the very strongest.  To earn the respect in an era where strength determines everything, Sengoku must have had to have been extremely strong.  You and I can agree WB and Roger were relatively equal, with Roger having a bit more power than WB.  Well, it is said that Garp has cornered Roger multiple times.  To corner the Pirate King would be the equivalent of the same strength as the Pirate King.  Therefore, we can ascertain Garp=Roger=WB.  Sengoku wasn't there to say "Hey, I'm on the execution platform!"  He was there to ensure that the execution is carried out.  How would it be carried out?  By saying, "I'm here, and I will not allow WB to take him from me!"  You see, Sengoku knew that the Admirals would take care of business, but even he had to take his suit off and fight.  Why is it that he had to fight Luffy?  It's because Luffy got past the admirals, meaning that they couldn't take care of business but he could, to some extent.  
In any tactical standard, your strongest fighters are saved for the last.  Here's why, and I have common sense to assist me.  Once "fodder" have wiped each other out, only the strong remain.  In order to fight the strong, you need the strong to counter.  The Admirals were busy fighting WB divisional commanders and WB himself, in his crippled state mind you.  However, it is clear that WB's power is equivalent to Sengoku's as Blackbeard utilized the Gura Gura no Mi and negated Sengoku's shock wave.  Even other marines were surprised BB could pull of such a feat, and these marines had witnessed WB fight.  Therefore, I can safely assume WB and Sengoku are relatively the same, with WB having a bit of an edge.
Garp and WB are the same, on the other hand.  If you can corner a man who was a bit stronger than WB, Roger, than you can take on a nominally weaker opponent.  The fact is, Garp was able to fight on par with Roger because of his strength.  Well, if WB and Roger fought on par with one another, and Garp fought on par with Roger, than obviously, Garp can fight on par with WB.  Well, WB's primary attack is a quake.  Garp's primary attack is his punch.  The punch must have been equal to one quake from WB.  
Okay, I am aware of the power structure in this manga, and no where did I explicitly state such a preposterous statement, as Don Chinjao is merely a mid-tier character in the OPverse.  
He may have suffered a more fatal injury, but not without already having one in his chest.  The fact is, a healthy WB, with no stab I mean, would have murdered Sakazuki.  That is pure logic, no need to substantiate my point. 

Now it's your turn.


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## Super Chief (Mar 23, 2014)

Garp.

If it's Garp after Akainu just killed his grandson, then it's an unholy affair.


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