# Strength Ranking Thread



## Rocky (May 29, 2015)

Just order these characters from weakest to strongest:


4th Raikage
Tsunade
Sages (Naruto, Jiraiya, Kabuto)
Butterfly Choji
CS Jirobo
CS Jugo
Human Path
KCM Naruto

You can add others if you want (Kisame, Gai, B, etc.), but the guys above have been the ones in question recently, so I wanted to create a thread dedicated towards this point in order to avoid going too off-topic in the other threads.


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## Raiken (May 29, 2015)

1: KCM Naruto
2: SM Kabuto. SM Naruto
3: 4th Raikage. Tsunade. Butterfly Choji
4: CS Jugo. Human Path
5: CS Jirobo


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## ueharakk (May 29, 2015)

cmon Rocky, you know 'strength' is ambiguous.  Unless you make more stipulations about what how these characters are testing their strength, seems like this is just bait.


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## Rocky (May 29, 2015)

How is "strength" ambiguous? 

Physical strength. How much they can lift, how hard they hit (without enhancement), etc. If you think lifting and striking are going to be different, than just say so and expalin why in your post. I don't need to write it out for you.


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## LostSelf (May 29, 2015)

Strategoob made a pretty good post about Choji's strenght in the 'Pick your Champion' thread.

Wich basically makes me put him above SM Naruto in sheer strenght (Don't know about Tsunade, it's comparable considering her hits are using chakra), considering the Choji he used was the genin one. Jirobo is pretty strong as well.


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## Raiken (May 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> How is "strength" ambiguous?
> 
> Physical strength. How much they can lift, how hard they hit (without enhancement), etc. If you think lifting and striking are going to be different, than just say so and expalin why in your post. I don't need to write it out for you.


Oh, I thought you meant how powerful they were as a whole, in that case:

1: Butterfly Choji
2: SM Naruto. SM Kabuto
3: Tsunade
4: CS Jirobo. SM Jiraiya
5: CS Jugo
6: KCM Naruto. 4th Raikage
7: Human Path


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 29, 2015)

By feats:

Butterfly Chouji
Tsunade
SM Naruto/Ma and Pa (Jiraiya?)
Jirobu
KCM Naruto/Ei/4th Raikage
Crazypants Juugo
Guy
Bee
Human Realm


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## Sadgoob (May 29, 2015)

Lifting/Grappling strength:

8 Gates Gai
Butterfly Choji 
Tsunade
SM Naruto 
CS2 Jirobo
4th Raikage 
KCM Naruto 
CS2 Juugo
Bee 
Human Realm  
Base Guy

Striking (crater) strength:

8 Gates Gai
Tsunade 
Butterfly Choji
CS2 Jirobo
4th Raikage
CS2 Jugo
SM Naruto
KCM Naruto
Human Realm
Bee
Base Gai


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## wooly Eullerex (May 29, 2015)

Butterfly Choji
Sages (Naruto, Jiraiya, Kabuto)
CS Jugo
CS Jirobo
Tsunade
4th Raikage
Human Path


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 30, 2015)

I'll rank them based on striking power, because it is the most common type of strength feat that can be found in nearly every character.

8 Gated Gai 

massive gap

Tsunade / Sakura
Butterfly Chouji 
CS Jirobo
A
CS Juugo
Sages
KCM Naruto
Human realm


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## Veracity (May 30, 2015)

YALL might just exaggerate butterfly Choji a bit .

... Asumas body after his BM punch: (7)
While Tsuande does more damage to someone a lot more durable than asuma. She also kinda obliterates Sussano. So her striking ability is > to Chojis. But if you aren't including chakra enchnaced, then I guess it would be close.

Idk about lifting strength. It's all inconsistent in general.


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## Sans (May 30, 2015)

CS Jirobo 
Human Path
Tsunade
4th Raikage
Sages
CS Jugo
Butterfly Choji 
KCM Naruto


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 30, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> YALL might just exaggerate butterfly Choji a bit .
> 
> ... Asumas body after his BM punch: (7)
> While Tsuande does more damage to someone a lot more durable than asuma. She also kinda obliterates Sussano. So her striking ability is > to Chojis. But if you aren't including chakra enchnaced, then I guess it would be close.
> ...



Thats plot. Disfiguring Asuma would suck @ that point because they had to have a proper goodbye. They'd have to wait for Asuma to regenerate his head for him to talk again etc.


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## Turrin (May 30, 2015)

For simplicity sake I'll include things like Okasho, Ei's speed, and so on as part of these characters' "strength".


Sakura has the single best feat bar none against Kaguya. Tsunade should be capable of something at least similar with the appropriate Byakugo reserves. So those 2 should be 1 and 2 respectively.

BM-Choji has the second best feat of casually stopping Jirobo in his tracks, and has only become more powerful since then, so he should certainly be No 3.

Jirobo has the 3rd best feat of being able to send Cho Multi-Size Choji flying, so he's 4th.

After him SM-Naruto has the 4th best feats with his Rino Toss and Kyuubi Toss, but I think logically SM-Jiraiya should be right there with him if not a bit better due to starting out with better base strength. So both of them should be 5th and 6th, though not sure who is better.

Juugo is next as he has the crazy CS2 form where he created the massive crater against Killer-B. Though it's only in that form he's above the latter two, as otherwise in his other form he got over powered by Ei.

Next would be between KCM-Naruto and Ei. Ei is probably a bit better there as he can control his speed better to add to his striking force.

Than comes Human-Realm. Human Realm block SM-Jiraiya's punch, but when it comes to guarding strikes the person doing the guarding does not need to be anywhere near as strong as the person delivering the strike to survive it. He still should be quite physically able though, compared to your average Jonin.

------

Kabuto is wierd because his Snake-SM never seemed to show the same physical strength enhancements as the other Sages. Perhaps that is due to the nature of his SM IDK. So I have no clue where to place him


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## LostSelf (May 30, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> YALL might just exaggerate butterfly Choji a bit .
> 
> ... Asumas body after his BM punch: (7)
> While Tsuande does more damage to someone a lot more durable than asuma. She also kinda obliterates Sussano. So her striking ability is > to Chojis. But if you aren't including chakra enchnaced, then I guess it would be close.
> ...



The only reason Tsuna/Saku blow people's body is because of the chakra enhancement they have.

Without it, Tsunade (Sakura is not strong physically) wouldn't do better than what Choji did to Asuma.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 30, 2015)

Turrin said:


> For simplicity sake I'll include things like Okasho, Ei's speed, and so on as part of these characters' "strength".
> 
> 
> Sakura has the single best feat bar none against Kaguya. Tsunade should be capable of something at least similar with the appropriate Byakugo reserves. So those 2 should be 1 and 2 respectively.
> ...




Placing Cs2 Juugo above A makes no sense because Juugo had to use 2 of his arms to block A's 1 arm and he was still pushed back and was rammed into a wall. 

And KCM Naruto was having hard time bracing himself when blocking A's hits with both of his arms, so they aren't remotely comparable in terms of power. 

And all of the sages should be below A as well due to having lack luster striking feats. I agree with the rest.


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## Turrin (May 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Placing Cs2 Juugo above A makes no sense because Juugo had to use 2 of his arms to block A's 1 arm and he was still pushed back and was rammed into a wall.



I said in striking force in that one form. If you have noticed Juugo has more forms. 



> And KCM Naruto was having hard time bracing himself when blocking A's hits with both of his arms, so they aren't remotely comparable in terms of power.


KCM-Naruto holding back the Yonbi's Jaws puts him near Ei



> And all of the sages should be below A as well due to having lack luster striking feats. I agree with the rest.[


Get back to me when Ei one shots boss summons, Ei toss around Bijuu, etc... To me this is just laughable. And quite frankly I find Ei's strikes to be lack luster


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## Sadgoob (May 30, 2015)

Jugo uses rocket-power to enhance his strikes. That's how he made that giant crater and how he pushed Sasuke through a wall. So his actual lifting strength isn't as good as A's IMO.​


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## Turrin (May 30, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Jugo uses rocket-power to enhance his strikes. That's how he made that giant crater and how he pushed Sasuke through a wall. So his actual lifting strength isn't as good as A's IMO.​


Agreed, but if were talking just muscle strength alone most of these characters don't deserve to be here. Sages, Juugo, Jirobo, Choji, and Sakura all enhance their strikes with chakra ether invigorating them or actual chakra based techniques. Ei enhance his strikes with his movement speed which is made possible with RNY. Tsunade is the only one whose is just a pure physical monster w/o the aid of techniques and to a lesser extent Base-Ei and Base-Jiraiya.


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## Rocky (May 30, 2015)

Didn't A's best strength feats come from when he was standing still?


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## ueharakk (May 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Didn't A's best strength feats come from when he was standing still?



I thought Ei's best 'strength' feat was when he blew up that cliff with his max speed punch?


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## Turrin (May 30, 2015)

^That is also what I'd consider his best strength feat.


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## Rocky (May 30, 2015)

It's tough to see what he actually did to the cliff with the way the panels are drawn.

Though I suppose matching v1 B's Lariat could be considered his best _strength_ feat, as the standstill ones I'm thinking off were Raiton chops.


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## Turrin (May 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It's tough to see what he actually did to the cliff with the way the panels are drawn.
> 
> Though I suppose matching v1 B's Lariat could be considered his best _strength_ feat, as the standstill ones I'm thinking off were Raiton chops.


And right there is my problem. Base-B was ether matching or out doing Ei in strength. Base-B has gone up against numerous individuals that managed to defend his attacks w/o being overpowered. Injured-Sasuke fucking managed to guard against numerous sword strikes of B's w/o being completely overpowered and so did Itachi, both of which only have a 3.5 in Str. Nii Yugito did it to and while she was a Jinchuuriki there is no reason to believe was super strong ether. Granted in these instances we have these ninja using metal weapons to intercept B's strikes, but still they need to be physically capable of holding back the force of the strike even if the metal is helping to absorb some of that force to a certain extent. And beyond that we even see Ashura-Realm arms also hold back Base-B's strikes. 

This is why I don't think Ei's non-charging strength is something most ninja can't handle. Suigetsu for instance blocked Ei's smash and while Suigetsu's already damaged sword broke and his liquid man arms got a bit liquider, he still recieved that force and wasn't smashed into the ground or send flying away. It's only when Ei charged Juugo's ass where really saw Ei do some serious damage, though even still Juugo did managed to block enough to survive. And you can say Ei smashed Rib-Cage Susano'o and all that jaz, but I don't see how that thing is very durable to begin with and he did have inertia on his side in all instances. 

This is also why I think the argument against Sages being stronger, that Pain blocked SM-Jiraiya's attack or some shit is so weak, as we've directly seen characters that are as weak or likely weaker defend strikes from people that are Ei class in strength.


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## Rocky (May 30, 2015)

Sugetsu said is arms would have ripped off if they _weren't_ made of water, and A punched a hole in Curse Seal (read: a more durable) Jugo from a standstill through a multi-layered shield. Liger Bomb & Raigyaku Suihei were also performed from a standstill, the former of which was expected to kill Sasuke, in the eyes of Darui nonetheless, who is _very_ familiar with A. Both of those techniques also smashed Susanoo, which is something "most ninja" _don't even compare to_ in terms of durability. 

So this:



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> This is why I don't think Ei's non-charging strength is something most ninja can't handle.



...is wrong.

Also, Base B likely hadn't surpassed A in the Lariat until Chapter 543. Not only had B's Lariat bouced off A earlier in the fight, but A also matched v1 B in a perfect Double Lariat _and_ managed to overpower Suigetsu with just strength while B needed to cut through the blade.

Oh, and some food for thought. As you said, Itachi had no problems blocking B's blades, but Itachi was pretty dead even with KCM Naruto when they fought hand to hand. A's punches sent KCM Naruto packing, despite his guard, _every single time._ Naruto likely was holding back his strength against Itachi to boot (he was trying to talk after all), so that makes it even worse. 

KCM Naruto, who's *very* likely above Itachi in strength, _marveled_ at A's physical power. Then we have B, who "can't overpower Itachi" with his blades, yet B's supposedly stronger than A? It doesn't fit.


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## Veracity (May 30, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> The only reason Tsuna/Saku blow people's body is because of the chakra enhancement they have.
> 
> Without it, Tsunade (Sakura is not strong physically) wouldn't do better than what Choji did to Asuma.



I mean I did say that in my post haha. And Tsuande is still pretty strong without chakra enhancement, seeing as she could jump well over a boss summon with a building sized sword while being rusty.


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## Sadgoob (May 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> KCM Naruto, who's *very* likely above Itachi in strength



But Healthy Itachi > Edo Itachi = KCM Naruto?


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## LostSelf (May 30, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I mean I did say that in my post haha. And Tsuande is still pretty strong without chakra enhancement, seeing as she could jump well over a boss summon with a building sized sword while being rusty.



She is incredibly strong. Because she not only lifted, but jumped with that. I agree. I just feel Choji is stronger. Jirobo threw a Choji bigger and heavier than Bunta's Katana to the air with one hand, if i am not mistaken. Chouji in Butterfly mode was able to block Jirobo's hand without his strong arm.

The huge strenght he gained with that is huge.

If we powerscale genin Butterfly Choji to this one, the strenght would be incredible to be on top. However, that's a mode. If Tsunade got that same enhancement, the woman would bust the freaking earth .


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## Turrin (May 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sugetsu said is arms would have ripped off if they _weren't_ made of water


And your point is...? Suigetsu still had the upper body strength to prevent himself from being completely overpowered and smashed into the ground or sent flying. This is the same guy that comment how heavy Zabuza's sword was and trembled under it's weight:
this moment

While Kakashi who has a mere 3.5 in Str was able to wield the sword no problem. 

So the guy is likely bellow a 3.5 in physical str and still wasn't smashed into the ground by Ei's blow.



> A punched a hole in Curse Seal (read: a more durable) Jugo from a standstill through a multi-layered shield.


No he didn't. Ei's initial charge [not stand still] was blocked by Juugo's shield. But Ei had him pinned against the wall, and than proceeded to keep pushing until over time his arm went through the shield. That's not in anyway a single strike from a stand still. That is V1-Ei's full force charge and than Ei proceeding the continue to apply force over time after that. Not to mention there's also the piercing quality of the Raiton-chakra aiding him in such a feat as well.




> Liger Bomb & Raigyaku Suihei were also performed from a standstill, the former of which was expected to kill Sasuke, in the eyes of Darui nonetheless, who is very familiar with A.


Laiger Bomb had the inertia of Ei's entire body behind it. Raigyaku Suihei I believe had inertia built up from the previous Shunshin, but assuming it didn't that just makes Rib-Cage Susano'o seem more pathetic not Ei's strike being better, as Kishi made a point of indicating that Zabuza's sword was broken by Ei because it was already damage in the Killer-B fight. So we know Ei's stationary strike wouldn't normally break Zabuza's sword, so if Ei didn't have inertia there that just means Rib-Cage Susano'o is much more brittle than Zabuza's Iron-Sword, which doesn't impress me at all.



> Both of those techniques also smashed Susanoo, which is something "most ninja" don't even compare to in terms of durability.


Most Ninja are Fodder, so of course not. As far as most top ninja go that is a totally baseless assumption when Sasuke's Rib-Cage Susano'o's feats consist of being shatter by Ei. Easily Melted by Futton. And blown away by SM-Kabuto's Suiton. Basically an extremely un stellar showing.



> Also, Base B likely hadn't surpassed A in the Lariat until Chapter 543. Not only had B's Lariat bouced off A earlier in the figh


So what, they were still close in physical strength, unless your advocating that someone can magically make up for gaps in physical strength with will power or some other such nonsense, mid-fight, and in which case Ei's physical strength than becomes total useless as anyone can just will their way to overpowering him or blocking his strikes.

So do I think B might have increased his Lariate strength slightly in the course of that fight, sure, but it's nothing major that's making the difference here



> t, but A also matched v1 B in a perfect Double Lariat and managed to overpower Suigetsu with just strength while B needed to cut through the blade.


B lowered his strength to match Ei.



> Oh, and some food for thought. As you said, Itachi had no problems blocking B's blades, but Itachi was pretty dead even with KCM Naruto when they fought hand to hand. A's punches sent KCM Naruto packing, despite his guard, every single time. Naruto likely was holding back his strength against Itachi to boot (he was trying to talk after all), so that makes it even worse.


Your just citing more examples where physical strength doesn't matter. And the real food for thought here is that Itachi has a 3.5 in physical strength. So Base-B being directly comparable to Ei in strength aside, Base-B still clearly would have a 5 in Str, so right there we have someone whose 3 Tiers bellow someone else, casually parrying their blows. That alone should tell you the Str difference needs to be astronomical for someone to not be able to guard someone's blows due to physical str alone while proactively trying to do so.



> KCM Naruto, who's very likely above Itachi in strength, marveled at A's physical power.


Marveled, lol. Stop wanking Rocky. He said the guy was strong, but proceeded to defend his blows w/o a single injury. 



> Then we have B, who "can't overpower Itachi" with his blades, yet B's supposedly stronger than A? It doesn't fit.


It fits perfectly fine. As literally we have consistently seen that much weaker characters can magically guard against much physically stronger characters throughout the manga. Kishi has consistently made it clear that unless the gaps in physicality as they relate to strength or speed are astronomical they are mostly irrelevant in the enemies ability to guard or react. That's just how it's always been and something that needs to be accepted if you want to come to any real evaluation of how a fight would go down in the manga.

And before you say, but that doesn't make sense. Fuck does Itachi or Injured Sasuke being able to parry B's blows make sense LOL, fuck no, again the dude is a fucking tank and they are a bit above average Jonin in str, yet they parried his blows no problem. Whether Base-B is as strong as Ei or not, that doesn't make logical sense, but in Kishi's manga we are just led to believe guarding works that way. Fuck another example would be Madara guarding against Ei's blow w/o any injury whatsoever despite the fact that he was hardly shown to be some uber strength demon even against fucking fodder:
this moment

He landed a dam clean kick and it only sent that fodder flying back like 1 foot or something:
this moment
this moment

Fucking Jiraiya sent Naruto flying about as far with his dam index finger:
this moment
this moment


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## ATastyMuffin (May 30, 2015)

I'm not sure why Kabuto is grouped with Naruto and Jiraiya; they have entirely different Sage Modes and therefore entirely different increases in areas of combat. It'd be like grouping the Sound 4 together in terms of physical strength, when really, it's only Jirōbo who is physically enhanced to an insane amount.


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## Turrin (May 30, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I'm not sure why Kabuto is grouped with Naruto and Jiraiya; they have entirely different Sage Modes and therefore entirely different increases in areas of combat. It'd be like grouping the Sound 4 together in terms of physical strength, when really, it's only Jirōbo who is physically enhanced to an insane amount.


I chalk it up to Kishi doing a very poor job explaining the differences in Curse-Seals and Sage-Modes.


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## Rocky (May 30, 2015)

Turrin, if your point is that regular characters should be able to block A's punches without dying, then I agree. That isn't what you said originally, which was:



> This is why I don't think Ei's non-charging strength is something most ninja can't handle.



If A swings at guys like Kakashi, Mei, Mu, etc., they'll block _initially_, but limb ripping and hole punching are going to follow because of the "force applied over time." That force is a result of A's "non-charging strength."

They can't block his lightning chops at all though. Their bodies are not durable enough.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If A swings at guys like Kakashi, Mei, Mu, etc., they'll block _initially_, but limb ripping and hole punching are going to follow because of the "force applied over time." That force is a result of A's "non-charging strength.".


Unless they get stuck between Ei and an extremely solid object, they aren't going to end up in that position most of the time. Rather instead, it will be like how Suigetsu and Madara intercepted Ei's blows or how Sasuke and Itachi intercepted B's blows, and were pushed back a bit, rather than being pinned. 



> They can't block his lightning chops at all though. Their bodies are not durable enough.


It would depend on how they guarded against it. If they tried to block Ei's hand their guard would probably get sliced apart, but if they guarded by stopping Ei's arm, than they'd probably be fine. Which comes down to a characters Taijutsu skill and CQC experience. So for example someone like Deidara whose not so great in those regards is probably going to defend incorrectly and get his shit fucked up by Raiton Chop, while someone like Jiraiya I have much more faith in positioning his body  to correctly intercept that blow. 

So again I just don't think physicality matters that much, but technical proficiency does. Also by the by I was also including Jutsu when making my statement about most of the more skilled Ninja being able to handle Ei's strength. Though I do think most characters that have ether great skill in Taijutsu or some other Taijutsu augmenting ability like Sharingan Prediction, can guard well against Ei's blows.


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## Rocky (May 31, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Unless they get stuck between Ei and an extremely solid object, they aren't going to end up in that position most of the time. Rather instead, it will be like how Suigetsu and Madara intercepted Ei's blows or how Sasuke and Itachi intercepted B's blows, and were pushed back a bit, rather than being pinned.



The ground is an extremely solid object. 

If he just punches them then they'll go flying like Madara. If he slams down on them like Suigetsu and keeps applying pressure, their arms are probably as good as gone.



> ....while someone like Jiraiya I have much more faith in positioning his body to correctly intercept that blow.



Unless you mean Sage Jiraiya with sensing, then lolno. He gets torn in half by a lightning chop. He's nowhere near as quick as RCM A is, so he isn't dodging.



> Also by the by I was also including Jutsu when making my statement about most of the more skilled Ninja being able to handle Ei's strength.



I agree that A isn't soloing Kage levels with just standstill strength, yes. He'd need his speed and durability to get into position.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The ground is an extremely solid object.
> 
> If he just punches them then they'll go flying like Madara. If he slams down on them like Suigetsu and keeps applying pressure, their arms are probably as good as gone.
> .


Suigetsu was blown back as well, so it doesn't seem to work that way. 



> Unless you mean Sage Jiraiya with sensing, then lolno. He gets torn in half by a lightning chop. He's nowhere near as quick as RCM A is, so he isn't dodging.


No I mean Base-Jiraiya vs V1-Ei. Jiraiya's speed is equal to Sasuke who was quick enough to move out of the way of V1-Ei's attack, annd while Sasuke does have Sharingan Prediction on top of that. Sharigan-Precog is just a cheat-code as oppose to actual experience with predicting the enemies movements, which Jiraiya has in spades considering his high skill in Taijutsu and great wealth of experience, not to mention most of Ei's moves are incredibly straight forward. So I believe he will similarly be able to predict Ei's moves and position his body accordingly to defend or avoid Ei's attacks.

Jiraiya would need Sennin Modo for EI's Max-Speed though. 



> I agree that A isn't soloing Kage levels with just standstill strength, yes. He'd need his speed and durability to get into position.


Okay than I don't know why you fault SM users for being unable to straight up one-shot Pain Paths w/ physical strength alone.


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## Rocky (May 31, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Suigetsu was blown back as well, so it doesn't seem to work that way.



And he said his arms would have been ripped off if they weren't made of water.



> Jiraiya's speed is equal to Sasuke who was quick enough to move out of the way of V1-Ei's attack.



Same tier ≠ equal speed. Wave Kakashi > Preskip Kiba, for example.



> Sharigan-Precog is just a cheat-code as oppose to actual experience with predicting the enemies movements



What an understatement.

Sharingan precognition paints a picture in your head. It allowed Sasuke to evade at the last possible second so that A (who is tiers faster in reflexive speed) didn't have any time to counter attack. It's the same concept with Naruto's sensing vs. the Raikage. It isn't like he lacked the taijutsu skill to read a straightforward thrust. 



> Okay than I don't know why you fault SM users for being unable to straight up one-shot Pain Paths w/ physical strength alone.



I don't know if I'd call the individual Pain bodies Kage level, and Jiraiya was getting in direct hits. I don't know if anyone has ever gotten up from getting kicked in the face by A.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2015)

Rocky said:


> And he said his arms would have been ripped off if they weren't made of water.
> .


And Suigetsu is physically inferior to most top Ninja, considering his strength is clearly bellow Kakashi's who is no strength monster by any means.



> Same tier ≠ equal speed. Wave Kakashi > Preskip Kiba, for example.


It means roughly the same. Kakashi will vastly out perform Kiba, because he blows him out of the water in every other area. It's just that if they had a foot race Kiba would probably still loose, but he would be close.



> Sharingan precognition paints a picture in your head. It allowed Sasuke to evade at the last possible second so that A (who is tiers faster in reflexive speed) didn't have any time to counter attack. It's the same concept with Naruto's sensing vs. the Raikage. It isn't like he lacked the taijutsu skill to read a straightforward thrust.


Yes because it's predicting the movement and showing that prediction to the user. However Ninja more skilled and experienced in CQC can predict the enemies movements w/o the need for Sharingan. Kimimaro comments on this during his fight with Rock Lee.

Here Kimi comments on how he can read through Lee's moves due to them being linear:
Link to the video

Than after Lee gets drunk and his moves become more unpredictable he talks about how now he can't read his movements:
Link to the video



> I don't know if I'd call the individual Pain bodies Kage level, and Jiraiya was getting in direct hits. I don't know if anyone has ever gotten up from getting kicked in the face by A.


The only times Ei landed a clean hit were against Mu, who got back up fairly quickly w/ no signs of Edo-Regen, though part was off panel so it's a bit unclear. The other time was when he hit B, who got right back up as well. Other than that he never landed any type of clean hit. 

And yes the Pain bodies are Kage-Level in terms of their ability to react and guard an attack, in-fact they are well beyond most Kages, due to Shared vision and Rinngan's perceptive capabilities.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 31, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I said in striking force in that one form. If you have noticed Juugo has more forms.


Juugo was in his strongest form when he attempted to block A and failed. 
So no.



> KCM-Naruto holding back the Yonbi's Jaws puts him near Ei


KCM Naruto doesn't have any striking feats comparable to A.


> Get back to me when Ei one shots boss summons, Ei toss around Bijuu, etc... To me this is just laughable. And quite frankly I find Ei's strikes to be lack luster


Get back to me when a sage actually shows a comparable striking feat to A.

Its really funny to play a double standart isn't it ?

A can't lift as much as a Sage, only because he never attempted to lift anything.
But both sages and A have striking feats, and A's striking feats shit on all sages. 

yet sages are considered more powerful than A.


Come on man, its 2015. Time to move on already.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 31, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Come on man, its 2015. Time to move on already.



What does this even mean? Turrin isn't some washed-up supporter of 'Sages > Ā in physical strength' with no one agreeing with said notion; plenty of NF concur with that statement. In fact, I'd say it's the popular opinion around here.

The only striking feats that have Ā 'shitting on Sages' are his Raigyaku Suihei and full-speed Shunshin punch; his standard strikes are on the same level, if not weaker than Sage Jiraiya's, let alone Sage Naruto's.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2015)

@Grimmjowsensei


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## Rocky (May 31, 2015)

Turrin said:


> @Grimmjowsensei



How do you know he kicked it.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2015)

Rocky said:


> How do you know he kicked it.


No sign of Jutsu usage whatsoever on the next page and the focus on the scuff mark on Jiraiya's foot from kicking the summon, right after that.

Though beyond that these feats are better than Ei's as well.




To hit someone so hard that they skip across the ground each time cause a crater in the ground. And than there's also SM-Naruto's hit on Deva Path here that sent him flying ridiculously far and still cracking a massive rock:




The second image give a sense of how far away it was as Naruto's real body appears like a tiny spec on the horizon.


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## Rocky (May 31, 2015)

I didn't notice the scuff mark.

Wow Human path should have been dead.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I didn't notice the scuff mark.
> 
> Wow Human path should have been dead.


Like I said I think it's because they are already dead and unless their body can no longer move like the spine being destroyed or the black rods, they will get back up. 

What doesn't make much sense is why Animal Realm, Deva Realm, and Human Realms necks didn't break, but HG-Realm's did, but I chalk that up to plot or HG-Realm just being much less durable than those paths.


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## Rocky (May 31, 2015)

Their bodies should have exploded on impact (like Tsunade vs. Madara), or should have at least been torn apart where the kick landed (like base Lee with a bit of Naruto's chakra vs. Madara).

But plot gonna plot.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Their bodies should have exploded on impact (like Tsunade vs. Madara), or should have at least been torn apart where the kick landed (like base Lee with a bit of Naruto's chakra vs. Madara).
> 
> But plot gonna plot.


I still personally maintain that was Gated-Lee + Kyuubi-Chakra. As far as the Tsunade thing goes, we are talking about Tsunade who has titanic physical strength to begin with, augment her strikes with Okasho, and than augmenting them further with Byakugo. So her accomplishing that is not surprising. Otherwise we never really see attacks go through a person like that. 

As i've shown before usually people can take hits from those way stronger than them. Fuck Sasuke took a point blank Laraitate from HB3 B, and his chest was only blown off from the piercing quality, rather than B's arm going right through him, and Sasuke is probably less physical able than the paths.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> What does this even mean? Turrin isn't some washed-up supporter of 'Sages > Ā in physical strength' with no one agreeing with said notion; plenty of NF concur with that statement. In fact, I'd say it's the popular opinion around here.
> 
> The only striking feats that have Ā 'shitting on Sages' are his Raigyaku Suihei and full-speed Shunshin punch; his standard strikes are on the same level, if not weaker than Sage Jiraiya's, let alone Sage Naruto's.



He Karate chopped ribcage Susano'o, when he was stationary. What is the best striking feat of a sage in a similar position ? 



Turrin said:


> @Grimmjowsensei



Yo !

_ambushing_


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 1, 2015)

Jeez, that Viz scan of Deva Path jumping really puts it in perspective. Naruto kicked him, what, 50 meters?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He Karate chopped ribcage Susano'o, when he was stationary. What is the best striking feat of a sage in a similar position ?



Read my post again.


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## Turrin (Jun 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yo !
> 
> Link removed


So your counter point is a feat that isn't even in the same universe as the one I showed you lol


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Just order these characters from weakest to strongest:
> 
> 
> 4th Raikage
> ...



1) tsunade
2) choji
3) 4th raikage
4) Sm naruto
5) cs jugo
6) kcm naruto
7)kabuto
8) jiraiya
9) cs jirobo - i know right. and he has lifted alot.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> So your counter point is a feat that isn't even in the same universe as the one I showed you lol



Nah, just showing you that Jiraya's feat is overrated.


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah, just showing you that Jiraya's feat is overrated.






Just showing you Itachi's Genjutsf feats are overrated


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## Sadgoob (Jun 2, 2015)

You don't have to be a Sage to beat down a giant animal with taijutsu. But Sage Jiraiya kicked that through a wall and sent it flying, which is pretty impressive.​


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You don't have to be a Sage to beat down a giant animal with taijutsu. But Sage Jiraiya kicked that through a wall and sent it flying, which is pretty impressive.​



could have been a punch
any proof it was a kick 

?

sage jiriaya power has shown to be less impressive than jugo's or jirobo's 

i dont get the sage jiriaya strength hype


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 2, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Just showing you Itachi's Genjutsf feats are overrated



I don't get it but whatever.


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't get it but whatever.


My exact thoughts about your example


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 2, 2015)

Turrin said:


> My exact thoughts about your example



Mine is pretty simple. Even genin with no strength feats can kick a huge animal around.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He Karate chopped ribcage Susano'o, when he was stationary. What is the best striking feat of a sage in a similar position ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 But that isn't a Boss-Sized Summon while Nagato's is.

 But I'm sure you're trolling. Knocking out an animal that size doesn't compare to being able to send a Boss-Sized Summon flying in the air and sending it at least 100m translationally. Keep in mind that Boss-Sized Summons are approximately the size of a normal Bijuu. That's far more impressive than knocking out a Big Animal with just a kick. 

 Not even comparable.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> could have been a punch
> any proof it was a kick
> 
> ?
> ...



 Really? Do you think CS Jugo can send the Hachibi flying in the air the same way SM Jiraiya did to Nagato's Summon?


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Mine is pretty simple. Even genin with no strength feats can kick a huge animal around.


Mine is pretty simple. Even genin with no genjutsu feats can create a detailed illusion like Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 2, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Mine is pretty simple. Even genin with no genjutsu feats can create a detailed illusion like Itachi.



The thing is. Illusion is a skill and intelligence based concept and isn't exactly quantifiable.
Strength is linear and is quantifiable.

Still a nice try. 



NarutoX28 said:


> But that isn't a Boss-Sized Summon while Nagato's is.
> 
> But I'm sure you're trolling. Knocking out an animal that size doesn't compare to being able to send a Boss-Sized Summon flying in the air and sending it at least 100m translationally. Keep in mind that Boss-Sized Summons are approximately the size of a normal Bijuu. That's far more impressive than knocking out a Big Animal with just a kick.
> 
> Not even comparable.



Ox is bigger for sure. But to be fair, Jiriaya is at least twice the size of Sasuke.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Ox is bigger for sure. But to be fair, Jiriaya is at least twice the size of Sasuke.



 So you believe the Ox is Bijuu-Sized? Sasuke merely pissed himself at Gamabunta's sheer size. The idea of Sasuke drop-kicing an Animal that's bigger than Bijuu-Sized Summon is laughable. That Ox is nowhere close to the animal that SM jiraiya pushed back at a high velocity.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So you believe the Ox is Bijuu-Sized? Sasuke merely pissed himself at Gamabunta's sheer size. The idea of Sasuke drop-kicing an Animal that's bigger than Bijuu-Sized Summon is laughable. That Ox is nowhere close to the animal that SM jiraiya pushed back at a high velocity.



Ox is the animal that Jiraiya kicked back.
Sasuke drop kicked a bear


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Really? Do you think CS Jugo can send the Hachibi flying in the air the same way SM Jiraiya did to Nagato's Summon?



hachibi is bigger than that summon though 

also could have been a rasengan or any jutus which we know nothing about 

btw yes jugo casually sends that silly summon flying. this is the guy who exploded half a cliff with a partial transformation punch. 

he chakra rockets that pull away easily


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## Duhul10 (Jun 2, 2015)

Jiraiya actually knocked out the summon, not just a push, but does that mean that human path is far more durable than the ox? Which seems pretty durable itself , now i believe that human path has been underrated since then


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The thing is. Illusion is a skill and intelligence based concept and isn't exactly quantifiable.
> Strength is linear and is quantifiable.
> 
> Still a nice try.


Oboro brothers created 1,000 Genjutsu bushin to Itachi's 1. That seems pretty quantifiable to me. 



NarutoX28 said:


> So you believe the Ox is Bijuu-Sized? Sasuke merely pissed himself at Gamabunta's sheer size. The idea of Sasuke drop-kicing an Animal that's bigger than Bijuu-Sized Summon is laughable. That Ox is nowhere close to the animal that SM jiraiya pushed back at a high velocity.


I don't know why your even taking him seriously. He's so obviously trolling by showing a feat of vastly inferior feat and trying to equate it to Jiraiya's.


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## Duhul10 (Jun 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> hachibi is bigger than that summon though
> 
> also could have been a rasengan or any jutus which we know nothing about
> 
> ...



I did not see that evidence of a kick, but now, Turrin has actually shown it to us
After the ox is raped, in the NexT page we can see a zoom on Jiraiya's foot which shows signs of contact ( before, he didn't even get Close to the enemy or got HURT )
.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> I did not see that evidence of a kick, but now, Turrin has actually shown it to us
> After the ox is raped, in the NexT page we can see a zoom on Jiraiya's foot which shows signs of contact ( before, he didn't even get Close to the enemy or got HURT )
> .



no way 
please show me 
am excited 

it changes nothing though. jugo could do the same with a punch. everyone here bar kabuto could do the same with a punch. then again kabuto could just use the jirobo in him to achieve that

so yh SM jiriaya would still be the weakest physically here

do show the scan though


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## Duhul10 (Jun 2, 2015)

Link removed
This is the scan
Actually it is impressive because the ox needed to be hit with chou Oodama rasengan by Naruto and after that choped by gamahiro in order to be taken out of the game, but Jiraiya did it with a single kick


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Link removed
> This is the scan
> Actually it is impressive because the ox needed to be hit with chou Oodama rasengan by Naruto and after that choped by gamahiro in order to be taken out of the game, but Jiraiya did it with a single kick



jiriaya didn't take out the summon though. he knocked it back and nagato opted to desummon it 

unless one is to now assume. jiriaya kick>odama rasengan which would be laughable at best

everyone on this thread is capable of knocking back a fodder summon using physical strength


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## Duhul10 (Jun 2, 2015)

No, there is no reason to believe he dessumoned the ox, when summons are highly damaged, they proof and dissappear. 
Maybe, just maybe,  a well-placed sage kick ( probably to the head or chest ) is at least equal in phisical damage to a big rasengan. It is just Kishi, not me. I am not very positive about it, but what can you do when Kishi gets drunk


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> No, there is no reason to believe he dessumoned the ox, when summons are highly damaged, they proof and dissappear.
> Maybe, just maybe,  a well-placed sage kick ( probably to the head or chest ) is at least equal in phisical damage to a big rasengan. It is just Kishi, not me. I am not very positive about it, but what can you do when Kishi gets drunk



 I don't agree. a summoner can choose to desummon his summon as he pleases. they don't auto go poof when damaged or summons would be very much useless. 

gamabunta didn't poof despite boss sized ST sending him cross country and crushing all his bones

so damage alone doesn't justify poofing away 

unless u believe jiriaya use some unknown technique against cerbrus to poof it away

he kicked it and sent it flyng. nagato changed tactic. its that simple


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## Duhul10 (Jun 2, 2015)

I am talking about Being knocked out, not only hurt, but unconcious
Why would he change tactics if one of His summons got thrown Away ? 
He had no reason to dessumon the ox, it is fanfic
Why would he get rid of a help in the middle of a fight ?
And this was because he was found by ma, so he was having the same tactic: hide and let the b*tches fight


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> I am talking about Being knocked out, not only hurt, but unconcious
> Why would he change tactics if one of His summons got thrown Away ?
> He had no reason to dessumon the ox, it is fanfic
> Why would he get rid of a help in the middle of a fight ?
> And this was because he was found by ma, so he was having the same tactic: hide and let the b*tches fight



no proof the summon was unconscious though. that's fan fic. who even says its a conscious being to begin with

he changed tactics because jiraiya using physical strength just sent 1 flying. and jiriaay looked different 

notice once he saw jiriaya he got into a defensive position. the chameleon was hiding that got trolled

and instead of opting for another animal summon he opted for paths summoning. he changed tactics because jiriaya did. you adapt to your opponent 

why keep a summon in play that jiriaya just kicked away? a summon who provides no tactical advantage needed at that time

after the bull got kicked. notice animal path who had the time to summon another animal did not. 

that shows a clear change of tactic.


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## Duhul10 (Jun 2, 2015)

He did not see he was looking different, because the animal poofed before Jiraiya has shown himslef and how did the path know that Jiraiya kicked the summon ?
The Chameleon was hiding right from the beginning what are you talking about ?
Yes, he changed the tactic, after he saw how the summon got knocked out and you can see that he shows to be impressed in a way


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> He did not see he was looking different, because the animal poofed before Jiraiya has shown himslef and how did the path know that Jiraiya kicked the summon ?
> The Chameleon was hiding right from the beginning what are you talking about ?
> Yes, he changed the tactic, after he saw how the summon got knocked out and you can see that he shows to be impressed in a way



animal path with his set of eyes saw jiriaya undo his summon. with his hands closed, therefore limited use of ninjutsu. making it easy to assume taijutsu was used. but if that isn't enough for u  

also have u forgotten shared vision? or do u assume the bull got kicked and didn't see it

he wasn't impressed in anyway by something that the likes of jirobo can do. the guy picks up rocks the size of that bull and tossed boss size summon choji with 1 hand 

kicking that bull away is really unimpressive. everyone here can do it. sakura without byakuyo took out a summon in a punch. this is something to be expect from everyone who fights with power

note when sakura took out the centipede it didn't poof away immediately. despite konoha ninja saying she just killed it. 

also I don't think it ever appeared again in the manga after that. what does that tell u?


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## Duhul10 (Jun 4, 2015)

You still did not Prove me that the he dessumoned the ox. This is quite illogical. What makes you think the ox was charging with His eyes open? He actually charged with His forehead so he Could not see Jiraiya after the contact


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> You still did not Prove me that the he dessumoned the ox. This is quite illogical. What makes you think the ox was charging with His eyes open? He actually charged with His forehead so he Could not see Jiraiya after the contact



 so why would it charge with its eyes closed

also charging with its forehead doesn't suddenly make it blind. 

jiriaya got pin back and kicked it. no way it wouldn't see the kick 

hence the desummoning since it makes no sense at all to believe that took it out when an odama rasengan from Naruto did not. 

that's just silly. 

makes more sense that he changed tactic.....unless u can explain to me how jiriaya got rid of cerebrus

go on ill wait


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Just order these characters from weakest to strongest:
> 
> 
> 4th Raikage
> ...



1: Gai
2. Tsunade
3. 4th Raikage
4. BF Chouji
5. Sakura
6. KCM Naruto
7. Sage Jiraiya
8. Sage Naruto/Kabuto
9. Jirobo/Jugo
10. Human Path


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## Bonly (Aug 17, 2015)

BM Choji
Tsunade
Sages
Jirobo
A
KCM Naruto
Jugo
Human path


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 17, 2015)

Butterfly Chouji
Tsunade
Curse Mark Level 2 Jirobo
SM Naruto / SM Jiraiya
Killer Bee
Ei
Curse Mark Jugo
Sandaime Raikage
Kisame
Might Gai (base)
Human Path

I wasn't sure where to place SM Kabuto or KCM Naruto, since I don't remember any outstanding strength feats from them.​​


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 17, 2015)

Didn't KCM Naruto hold off Son Goku's fingers with just his shroud? Does that count here? I don't know how else to quantify his strength.


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## ATastyMuffin (Aug 18, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Didn't KCM Naruto hold off Son Goku's fingers with just his shroud? Does that count here? I don't know how else to quantify his strength.



Kind of hard to quantify holding off a Tailed Beast's fingers, lol.

I don't think the strength required to do so is above tossing boss summons around the same size as said Tailed Beast into the stratosphere, though.


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