# Base Naruto vs Sakura



## Kyu (May 14, 2014)

I figured since SM Naruto would murder Sakura, Base Naruto is a better matchup.


*Distance:* 10m
*Location:* Outside the Forest of Death
*Mindset:* To Kill
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Stipulations:*

Naruto cannot use SM, KCM, BM/BSM, Rikudo Sage powers for whatever the fuck reason
Sakura starts in _Byakugou_

Go.


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## rubberguy (May 14, 2014)

Naruto drain her with chou odama rasengan. and she got stomped with chou odama rasengan tarengan


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## Skywalker (May 14, 2014)

She eats a FRS, and that's the end of Sakura.

Or Naruto will get close and get his head punched off, probably more likely.


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## Arles Celes (May 14, 2014)

I do not see BASE Naruto bliztining Sakura unless we mean Current "base" Naruto.

Well, I think Sakura's huge strength combined with her impressive regeneration could give base Naruto plenty of trouble.

It would come to whether she can land a hit on the real Naruto or she is fooled with a KB feint before that and smacked with FRS.

I rather lean to Sakura portrayal wise.


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## Cognitios (May 14, 2014)

Lol at FRS beating sakura. For one he needs to make 2 clones before he even makes it.
For 2 Katsuya tanks it.
Sakura murders.
Oodama rasengan is tanked, it is not more powerful than madara's stick.
Anything Naruto throws isn't more powerful than Madara's stick, nothing he can do harms her.
Gamakichi = Katsuya.
Sakura touches him and he is dead.


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## Turrin (May 14, 2014)

So Sakura just became the most underrated character ever


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## Rocky (May 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So Sakura just became the most underrated character ever



It's almost obvious that Bonly is speaking of current Base Naruto, the one that embarrassed Madara.


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## Cognitios (May 14, 2014)

> It's almost obvious that Bonly is speaking of current Base Naruto, the one that embarrassed Madara.


It's not, look under the restrictions.


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## Rocky (May 14, 2014)

He may have missed it, which is what I'm going to believe unless he corrects me.


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## Bonly (May 14, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> It's not, look under the restrictions.





Rocky said:


> He may have missed it, which is what I'm going to believe unless he corrects me.





I didn't even see that. Welp there goes my blond moment of the day


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## Triggenism (May 14, 2014)

Hardest fight of Sakura's life definitely. The distance is very small, if Byakugo Sakura is faster than Naruto in base mode then she might kill him instantly. If not, and he manages to create clones and organize himself. He might summon the toad army for extra firepower. And also, didn't he create mass clones with rasengans in base to deal with Madara's mokuton attack? If he can do that while exhausted. Doing it fresh should be no problem, as long as he is allowed to borrow Kurama's chakra to do it. If he can do that then he wins mid difficulty at most.


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## Trojan (May 14, 2014)

Sadly, Sakura fodderstomps. U_U

either by power, or the fact that even current Naruto can't beat  her (because he won't attack her anyway. lol).


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## Kyu (May 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Sadly, Sakura fodderstomps. U_U


If I banned _shadow clones_, sure.


> or the fact that even current Naruto can't beat  her (*because he won't attack her anyway*. lol).


wut?



> Mindset: To Kill





> *To Kill*





> *Kill*





> *kill verb \ˈkil\
> : to cause the death of (a person, animal, or plant) : to end the life of (someone or something)
> 
> : to cause the end of (something)*






Triggenism said:


> Hardest fight of Sakura's life definitely. The distance is very small, *if Byakugo Sakura is faster than Naruto in base* mode then she might kill him instantly.


Question at the bolded. Why would she be? IIRC blitzing Juubling fodder was her best feat & Base Naruto & Sasuke were casually taking care of them.



> If not, and he manages to create clones and organize himself. He might summon the toad army for extra firepower. And also, didn't he create mass clones with rasengans in base to deal with Madara's mokuton attack? If he can do that while exhausted. Doing it fresh should be no problem, as long as he is allowed to borrow Kurama's chakra to do it. If he can do that then he wins mid difficulty at most.



I agree no reason to believe a fresh Naruto can't pull off _Rasen Chō Tarengan_ or _Ōdama Rasen Tairengan_. There is no denying her high-speed regen will pose complications however if it becomes a battle of stamina Naruto naturally comes out on top.


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## Panther (May 14, 2014)

Sakura's only new feats are increased striking power, buyakugou and summoning katsuya, aside from that she doesn't have any increased speed, reactions or improved taijutsu.

The only thing Sakura has going for her is physical strength.
Sakura's base speed is still fodder lvl, her reaction feats are almost non-existent and her taijutsu is shit tier, since her only style is to run at her enemies in hope to land a strike. 

A tired base Naruto was holding his own against a hypersonic + Deva in taijutsu, the same Deva path that tagged Kakashi in their taijutsu exchange, which the latter had a sharingan and a 4.5 in taijutsu. Sakura doesn't have the speed and taijutsu to keep up with that, she would get overwhelmed by Naruto and get a ended by Odama Rasengan - Wind style Rasengan or COR. But mainly she would get ended by a FRS, even Tsunade noted that she couldn't heal FRS dmg.

As for the Sakura will punch the ground and destroy the clones BS.
The clones of Naruto's base clone got punched away by Madara's Susanoo and didn't dispel, so they aren't gonna get destroyed just because Sakura destroy a big chunk of the ground and they go flying.


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## Trojan (May 14, 2014)

> [=Kyu;50656847]If I banned _shadow clones_, sure.


not really, unless you think Naruto's base clones are tougher than the Juubi's clones, which is ridiculous. @>@


> wut?



lol, ok, ok. 
[/QUOTE]


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## Lurko (May 14, 2014)

Panther said:


> Sakura's only new feats are increased striking power, buyakugou and summoning katsuya, aside from that she doesn't have any increased speed, reactions or improved taijutsu.
> 
> The only thing Sakura has going for her is physical strength.
> Sakura's base speed is still fodder lvl, her reaction feats are almost non-existent and her taijutsu is shit tier, since her only style to run at her enemies and hope to land a strike.
> ...



Good post,  she can't even handle base Naruto or Base Sasuke.


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## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Sakura has a legitimate way of dealing with spam 1hp base clones: by punching the ground.

on top of having an overwhelming strength advantage, I'd give her the speed advantage as well with her being able to catch up to the juubi that she punched (which was travelling fast enough to create an air-wave behind it).  Offensively, naruto is probably going to have to land hundreds of rasengans in order to overwhelm her regen, and I don't see that happening before she connects with the real one, or naruto uses up his reserves on clone armies.  Multiple hits from Chou oodama rasengan will probably completely drain her, and a single hit from FRS will probably do the job as well.  

So I'd say it could go either way.  I used to think that sakura would win more than not, but naruto's recent chakra feats like SM COR without losing sennin mode would give him more opportunities at landing the FRS.


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## TheGreen1 (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Sakura has a legitimate way of dealing with spam 1hp base clones: by punching the ground.
> 
> on top of having an overwhelming strength advantage, I'd give her the speed advantage as well with her being able to catch up to the juubi that she punched (which was travelling fast enough to create an air-wave behind it).  Offensively, naruto is probably going to have to land hundreds of rasengans in order to overwhelm her regen, and I don't see that happening before she connects with the real one, or naruto uses up his reserves on clone armies.  Multiple hits from Chou oodama rasengan will probably completely drain her, and a single hit from FRS will probably do the job as well.
> 
> So I'd say it could go either way.  I used to think that sakura would win more than not, but naruto's recent chakra feats like SM COR without losing sennin mode would give him more opportunities at landing the FRS.



Why couldn't Naruto land a hundred Rasengans on her? One of his clones, granted it was given extra chakra from Kurama, was able to do so against Madara's Forest. And that clone was used up and exhausted by that time after defeating a Kage in one on one combat. Let's not underestimate Base Naruto here.


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## ueharakk (May 16, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> Why couldn't Naruto land a hundred Rasengans on her? One of his clones, granted it was given extra chakra from Kurama, was able to do so against Madara's Forest. And that clone was used up and exhausted by that time after defeating a Kage in one on one combat. Let's not underestimate Base Naruto here.


No one can argue against Naruto having the chakra capacity to make hundreds of rasengans.  

Even way back in the immortals arc,* he had 200 clones out for a whole day* forming rasengans and infusing them with fuuton chakra

What im arguing against is naruto landing that many rasengans on her before she beats him or he runs out of chakra.  *Sakura has a way to deal with the masses of clones* that get near, I'd think naruto would poop out before he _lands_ that many rasengans on her if he has to spam clones.


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## Lurko (May 16, 2014)

Naruto is faster than her ofcourse he will especially with hundreds of clones.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 16, 2014)

I think Kishimoto _intended_ to portray her as powerful as Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto and Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke (prior to the usage of bipedal Susano'o), but holy *fuck*, do her feats absolutely not demonstrate so, in any possible way. She'd still get *wrecked* by Sage Naruto and Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke casually as it is.

In this case, Sakura stands a fair chance. Base Naruto throwing hordes of clones at her won't do him much good since a single punch dispels the vast majority of them, and actually rids of any chance of distraction since the ensuing environmental destruction will undoubtedly throw off Naruto's line of sight. 

I can actually see Sakura gaining victory if she gets within thirty meters from him; erupting the ground constantly is going to disrupt any sort of set-up Naruto tries to enact. So the initial start distance of fucking ten meters clearly designed to give her an unlikely advantage. Skilled as Naruto is, he isn't setting up _Massive Rasengan_ with such a small gap between him and his adversary.

Especially with _Strength of a Hundred_ in the mix. She wins.


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## Turrin (May 16, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I think Kishimoto _intended_ to portray her as powerful as Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto and Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke (prior to the usage of bipedal Susano'o), but holy *fuck*, do her feats absolutely not demonstrate so, in any possible way. She'd still get *wrecked* by Sage Naruto and Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke casually as it is.



Part of the fault is Kishi's for not giving Sakura a strong enemy to fight against since her improvements, but I don't think all of the blame can be pushed off on Kishi. Kishi has given her one feat that gets criminally downplayed. I'm talking about this:
*this*

I do not think enough people acknowledge that those little dots are the Juubi-Monsters. Even the average Juubi monster is larger than a normal sized human and many of them are much larger. Yet they are specks compared to the explosion that Sakura's punch creates. Heck even if we ignore the shock-wave and look at the chunks of earth that are being blown away, they dwarf the Juubi-Monsters to an insane degree. 

This strength feat is actually so beyond anything we've ever seen, even from other strength demons it's ridiculous. Ei's max speed and strongest strike is an absolute joke in comparison to what Sakura did:
*this*

The rocks thrown around are at best slightly bigger than Ei and that's being generous, and the shock-wave is at best the size of 2-3 Ei's, which is means it's not even remotely comparable to Sakura's.

Even Tsunade using her Leg-Strength (Leg should be stronger than fist) is a joke in comparison to Sakura's attack:
*this* 

Part I Butterfly Choji's punch who was stronger than Jirobo (that lifted chou multi-sized choji with one arm), was an absolute joke compared to Sakura's:
*this*

Part II Butterfly Multi-Sized Chouji's punch is a joke compared to Sakura:
*this*

I can go on an on. It's just insane the sheer difference between Sakura and anyone else, and when your strength "feat" is like 100 times more impressive than the strength "feats" of BM-Choji, Tsunade, and Ei, that is something that should be taken very seriously. What defense is stoping something like that, what person is surviving that; hell who could even whether the shock-wave and debree. I mean one of the closest things it can be compared to is KN4's shockwave "feat", though even that is blown away by Sakura's, but look at reactions ninja like Sai and Yamato have to that:
*this*

Yamato one of Konoha's finest who is certainly witnessed and is aware of many powerful ninja can't even believe that type of strength is real. Sai can't even approach the battlefield and is rendered a moot point. That should tell someone that Sakura's striking force alone would have ninja's of Yamato's caliber shitting their pants and ninja's of Sai's caliber are essentially fodder level to her.

On  other thing we could even remotely compare it to is HB3 B smashing down to the ground like a rocket, and the shock-wave it created which pressured all of team-taka, but at the end of the day still isn't even remotely close to Sakura's punch:
*this*

Really the only thing that seems like a good comparison to Sakura's punch is the combined tail whip of all 9 Bijuu. Which is just insane:
*this*

Which tore through Madara's legged Stage 3 Susano'o and tore his arm off among other damage.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 16, 2014)

Heh...Panther. Deva's Hypersonic +, not 'supersonic'.


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## ueharakk (May 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Even Tsunade using her Leg-Strength (Leg should be stronger than fist) is a joke in comparison to Sakura's attack:
> *this*


that was part 1 tsunade, the same tsunade that makes *craters that are smaller than juugo's* with her strikes, the same tsunade who's punch damages orochimaru's face about as much as KN1 Naruto's claw attack.  People like Juugo, Ei, Han, and cloaked Bee have greater striking feats than her, yet we know current tsunade is above all of them.



Turrin said:


> Part II Butterfly Multi-Sized Chouji's punch is a joke compared to Sakura:
> *craters that are smaller than juugo's*
> 
> I can go on an on. It's just insane the sheer difference between Sakura and anyone else, and when your strength "feat" is like 100 times more impressive than the strength "feats" of BM-Choji, Tsunade, and Ei, that is something that should be taken very seriously. What defense is stoping something like that, what person is surviving that; hell who could even whether the shock-wave and debree. I mean one of the closest things it can be compared to is KN4's shockwave "feat", though even that is blown away by Sakura's, but look at reactions ninja like Sai and Yamato have to that:
> *craters that are smaller than juugo's*


Using that hit from BM chouji isn't fair.  He's hitting a human-sized object with the intention of sealing it while Sakura is hitting the earth with all her might.  The punch you should be using is the one *Chouji used on GM* where we know he's punching at full force and the mere resulting shockwave sends all the nearby shinobi flying.



Turrin said:


> Really the only thing that seems like a good comparison to Sakura's punch is the combined tail whip of all 9 Bijuu. Which is just insane:
> *Chouji used on GM*



Which tore through Madara's legged Stage 3 Susano'o and tore his arm off among other damage.[/QUOTE]
Do you think the strength difference between sakura and tsunade is so great that sakura would run right through a senjutsu V3 while tsunade is incapable of even damaging them?  Hashirama even comments that sakura 'might' be worse than tsunade meaning they should be at least comparable.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*when sakura punches something that isn't earth, she doesn't produce any kind of shockwave.*




I don't think she'd be able to replicate what the tailed beasts did with a single punch.


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## DaVizWiz (May 17, 2014)

Sakura can summon 5% Katsuya, and her punch has ridiculous AoE.

She should beat him, considering all Naruto is capable of is summoning weaker frogs (than Katsuya) and cannot even use FRS. 

The fact it starts at 10m makes it easier for Sakura, he might not even be able to avoid the AoE of a soil punch at start battle.

If we take into consideration the fact that Rinnegan Sauce and BSM Rikduo Naruto couldn't stop her blitz or even reach Judara before Sakura could throw a punch in his face, Base Naruto certainly has no chance at avoiding her strike AoE.

Naruto can't even beat 5% Katsuya.


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## Kyu (May 17, 2014)

Sakura isn't fast enough to blitz a fresh Naruto seeing as how Deva Path can't even successfully blitz a less accomplished fatigued Naruto. 

So unless Sakura can punch the ground to throw her teammate into the air and score a clean hit on Naruto before he can switch places with a clone; this fight will go on for a while until one party lands a decisive blow. Especially when Naruto has knowledge on her strength meaning he won't charge in alone and knows what to expect.

Keep in mind Sakura needs to repeatedly strike the ground to exterminate the horde of clones. Charging the army directly wouldn't achieve the same results.

This isn't a stomp for either side.



> She should beat him, considering all Naruto is capable of is summoning weaker frogs (than Katsuya) and cannot even use FRS.



Gamakichi is more than enough to keep Katsuyu busy.



> The fact it starts at 10m makes it easier for Sakura, he might not even be able to avoid the AoE of a soil punch at start battle.



Chances are he'll be able to swap places before her second strike connects.

People are quick to forget the strongest character her twoshot combo worked on is Juubling fodder. It's a stretch to say she can just as easily do the same to a superior adversary who has previously reacted to much faster opponents.



> If we take into consideration the fact that *Rinnegan Sauce and BSM Rikduo Naruto couldn't stop her blitz or even reach Judara before Sakura could throw a punch in his face*,



They were likely baffled by her sheer stupidity. Classic case of PIS.

Anyone seriously arguing RSM Naruto/Sharinnegan Sasuke can't physically react to Sakura is in dire need of their head being examined.



> Base Naruto certainly has no chance at avoiding her strike AoE.



The punch to the ground itself isn't killing him, so long as he clone feints to avoid a direct hit he'll live.



> Naruto can't even beat 5% Katsuya.



Naruto doesn't need to. In case you haven't noticed, this match isn't Base Naruto vs Katsuyu. He just has to keep the slug occupied while he engages Sakura.


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## maupp (May 17, 2014)

What are people on about. Base Naruto destroys Sakura, the current one. Sakura only has Byakoto regen and smashing power and that's it. Base Naruto is superior to Sakura in everything else. Better fighting skills, speed, fighting strategy and better techniques. 

Unless if Sakura was a speedster and hard to land a hit on, Base Naruto destroys her. She'll never hit Naruto with her slowish speed. Punching the ground is a joke as an argument and just shows thelack of arguments people siding with Sakura on this have. Her regeneration is rendered useless in this battle because of FRS that completly destroy and feck up the chakra system. Once hit by it she is done, no regeneration w/o chakra system working at all. 

Whatever scenario is out there Base Naruto is still superior to Sakura. Think the lad is getting underestimated because he hasn't used his base in a while. He now can use one handed rasengans. He is better than sakura in everything beside smashing things and medic. 

Base Naruto is a far better fighter and much much more skilled than Sakura. He'll murder her. FRS ends this fight. And trust me Naruto won't be having much of a problem landing a FRS on Sakura.


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## maupp (May 17, 2014)

The base Naruto under estimation is reaching new height. I can't believe people are now arguing whether Naruto can tag freaking Sakura of all people . She only improved in smashing and bakoto and that's it, none of which change much between her and Base Naruto. 

She always been a heavy hitter and smash hard. Her byakoto is useless here given FRS render it obsolete. Some people are acting as if Sakura demonstrated new speed feats, taijutu feats or other ubber tech that would really help her against Base Naruto that she didn't have before . 

Base Naruto is a lot faster than her, faster reactions and actually has true deadly techniques not smashing things. Naruto in Base won't have much problems landing hit on Sakura, nor would it be particularly hard for him to land a FRS on Sakura. He is faster than her and has KB to make things worse. 

Nothing much changed with Sakura. Her speed is still a joke, her taijutsu skills are still a big joke and reflexes are non existent, and people actually believe Base Naruto would struggle against such an opponents . 

I've seen characters being underestimated but this one is on another level. I mean we know debate whether Base Naruto can manage to land a hit on Sakura or not . Who is she speedwise, BM Naruto .


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## Panther (May 17, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Heh...Panther. Deva's *Hypersonic* +, not 'supersonic'.


 Ugh  thanks for pointing out my mistake bro, was in a hurry when i made that post...


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## Mithos (May 17, 2014)

Kyu said:


> If I banned _shadow clones_, sure.



Sakura has the perfect counter to Shadow clones.


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## Kyu (May 17, 2014)

There is nothing stopping him from creating more so-



> unless Sakura can punch the ground to throw her teammate into the air and score a clean hit on Naruto before he can switch places with a clone; this fight will go on for a while


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## Mithos (May 17, 2014)

Kyu said:


> There is nothing stopping him from creating more so-



No, but there's nothing stopping her from doing it again. 

And the shockwave and debris are going to damage the real Naruto too. Sooner or later he's going to be damaged enough to do down. Every time he's sent flying he's taking damage and slowing down, making each next consecutive attack harder for him to avoid.


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## Bonly (May 17, 2014)

Since this isn't current Naruto I'd still favor Naruto more times then not slightly. If Naruto uses his arsenal to it's fullest then yeah he could win handily but that may or may not happen but I'd still favor Naruto.


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## Mithos (May 17, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Since this isn't current Naruto I'd still favor Naruto more times then not slightly. If Naruto uses his arsenal to it's fullest then yeah he could win handily but that may or may not happen but I'd still favor Naruto.



I would like to know why you think this. 

Sakura has the tools to take down Base Naruto. Byakugou counters the bulk of his offense. Katsuyu is better than any non-Gamabunta frog he can summon, and even then Sakura can take out Gamabunta at some point while Naruto will not take out Katsuyu. AoE strength fodderizes his clones and prevents him from getting near her; and if he does, Byakugou saves the day. Base Naruto cannot avoid the AoE of her strength.

And aside from that, even though Kishi has done a poor job, he's portraying her as far above base Naruto.


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## Bonly (May 17, 2014)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> I would like to know why you think this.
> 
> Sakura has the tools to take down Base Naruto. Byakugou counters the bulk of his offense. Katsuyu is better than any non-Gamabunta frog he can summon, and even then Sakura can take out Gamabunta at some point while Naruto will not take out Katsuyu. AoE strength fodderizes his clones and prevents him from getting near her; and if he does, Byakugou saves the day. Base Naruto cannot avoid the AoE of her strength.
> 
> And aside from that, even though Kishi has done a poor job, he's portraying her as far above base Naruto.



Naruto is fast enough to avoid a direct hit and as we have seen Kurama can give Naruto some chakra without him entering another mode which allows him to do more damage and prolly heal them meaning the damage he might take from flying rocks might not do much as well as being able to use stronger/more jutsu on a stronger scale. He also has Ma+Pa which pretty much shits on Sakura and they have a jutsu to not only stop her shortly but also stop her for good with their genjutsu which leaves Naruto able to get a good free shot in to finish her off. As far as I see it Kishi has portrayed Base Naruto with his full arsenal to be low Kage level just like Sakura has been portrayed as Low Kage level imo.


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## Mithos (May 17, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Naruto is fast enough to avoid a direct hit and as we have seen Kurama can give Naruto some chakra without him entering another mode which allows him to do more damage and prolly heal them meaning the damage he might take from flying rocks might not do much as well as being able to use stronger/more jutsu on a stronger scale. He also has Ma+Pa which pretty much shits on Sakura and they have a jutsu to not only stop her shortly but also stop her for good with their genjutsu which leaves Naruto able to get a good free shot in to finish her off. As far as I see it Kishi has portrayed Base Naruto with his full arsenal to be low Kage level just like Sakura has been portrayed as Low Kage level imo.



Naruto has never summoned Ma and Pa. 

How long can he avoid a direct hit? He can't block and being thrown around is going to start slowing him down. Especially since Sakura can, as shown, take a hit and continue on to throw a punch no problem. 

But Kishi was portraying Sakura as on par with stronger versions of Naruto than "base." Portrayal-wise it goes to Sakura hands down.


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## Bonly (May 17, 2014)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Naruto has never summoned Ma and Pa.



Doesn't mean he can't do it. 



> How long can he avoid a direct hit? He can't block and being thrown around is going to start slowing him down. Especially since Sakura can, as shown, take a hit and continue on to throw a punch no problem.



He can dodge long enough to bring out Ma+Pa.



> But Kishi was portraying Sakura as on par with stronger versions of Naruto than "base." Portrayal-wise it goes to Sakura hands down.



No that's how you see it. I see Kishi trying to portray Sakura on the level of the others but failing on his attempt as many others will see it as well. As far as I'm concerned until Kishi gets his shit together with Sakura, she's gonna be on the same general level as Base Naruto as of now though that can change in the next few weeks-months.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2014)

Panther said:


> Ugh  thanks for pointing out my mistake bro, was in a hurry when i made that post...


Almost all characters in Naruto are Hypersonic+ now, with A, Minato, KCM/BM/BSM Naruto, Hashirama, and Edo/Living Madara being Massively Hypersonic, and current Naruto, Juubito, Juudara, and Current Sasuke being sub-revalistic with mach 29k speeds.


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## Mithos (May 17, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Doesn't mean he can't do it.
> 
> 
> 
> He can dodge long enough to bring out Ma+Pa.



This is not something that I can picture Naruto doing, based on his style of fighting. 



> No that's how you see it. I see Kishi trying to portray Sakura on the level of the others but failing on his attempt as many others will see it as well. As far as I'm concerned until Kishi gets his shit together with Sakura, she's gonna be on the same general level as Base Naruto as of now though that can change in the next few weeks-months.



This doesn't make sense. You agree that Kishi was trying to portray her as on their level. That means the author _views_ her as around their level. Whether we believe it has been done poorly or not shouldn't matter that much if we we're pretty sure of what the author's _intentions_ are. 

And I agree Sakura will be viewed better in coming chapters.


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## Bonly (May 17, 2014)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> This is not something that I can picture Naruto doing, based on his style of fighting.



Ok.



> This doesn't make sense. You agree that Kishi was trying to portray her as on their level. That means the author _views_ her as around their level. Whether we believe it has been done poorly or not shouldn't matter that much if we we're pretty sure of what the author's _intentions_ are.
> 
> And I agree Sakura will be viewed better in coming chapters.



No that means the author *wants* us to view her as that level. If he does it poorly then I have no reason to blindly assume she is on said when his actions towards her say otherwise. It's just like with the whole Sakura has surpassed Tsunade thing. 

Even though Kishi is trying to portray her surpassing Tsunade, you would be in the minority in saying Sakura has been fully portrayed as doing such. Most people would say otherwise and tell you Tsunade hasn't been surpassed yet due to what we have seen due to Kishi's poorly job of it. You might think that doesn't make sense but it is what it is and the majority of people will go on thinking otherwise on that subject. And the same thing applies here, most people will tell you she isn't portrayed on her teammates level(before new power-up) due to what they showed and you likely aren't gonna convince anyone else who doesn't think like you already.


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## ueharakk (May 17, 2014)

matto-sama, sakura by portrayal*isn't even above tsunade's level while * a single KCM Naruto clone is portrayed as at or above the average gokage member.

Plus the KCM Naruto she was portrayed alongside *was saving up for BM*.  Finally, what did she do after the three summon deadlock?  She summons katsuyu and heals/restores the entire alliance while doing no fighting on her own.  That would mean that her portrayal wouldn't be one of combat, but of overall usefulness on the battlefield as a shinobi

Thus in a 1 vs 1 matchup, that portrayal wouldn't count, she'd be on the same level as tsunade.


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## Mithos (May 17, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> matto-sama, sakura by portrayal*isn't even above tsunade's level while * a single KCM Naruto clone is portrayed as at or above the average gokage member.
> 
> Plus the KCM Naruto she was portrayed alongside *was saving up for BM*.  Finally, what did she do after the three summon deadlock?  She summons katsuyu and heals/restores the entire alliance while doing no fighting on her own.  That would mean that her portrayal wouldn't be one of combat, but of overall usefulness on the battlefield as a shinobi
> 
> Thus in a 1 vs 1 matchup, that portrayal wouldn't count, she'd be on the same level as tsunade.



Tsunade is not losing to base Naruto. So if Sakura is at or just slightly below Tsunade, she'll win.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 17, 2014)

Current Sakura vs Base Naruto seems to be working out better for her than Tsunade the last time there was a Base Naruto vs Tsunade thread.  Though overall opinion seems to be that Tsunade remains better than Sakura at basically everything.


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## ueharakk (May 17, 2014)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Tsunade is not losing to base Naruto. So if Sakura is at or just slightly below Tsunade, she'll win.



why wouldn't she stand a chance of losing to base naruto?

Portrayal, base naruto was explicitly stated to be at least at kakashi's level back in the immortal's arc, and his base has gotten way stronger since then.


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## Turrin (May 17, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> that was part 1 tsunade, the same tsunade that makes *craters that are smaller than juugo's* with her strikes, the same tsunade who's punch damages orochimaru's face about as much as KN1 Naruto's claw attack.  People like Juugo, Ei, Han, and cloaked Bee have greater striking feats than her, yet we know current tsunade is above all of them.


Your looking at Tsunade's strikes after she was exhausted. I was looking at her strike when she was fresh. And even if her strikes increased in x5 in  strength in Part II due to no longer being rusty they would be no where near Sakura's.



> Using that hit from BM chouji isn't fair. He's hitting a human-sized object with the intention of sealing it while Sakura is hitting the earth with all her might.


Were does it say Sakura used all of her might? And even if we compare the punch used on the initialy juubi-fodder, which is stylistically the same punch as Choji's it's not even close to Sakura's.



> The punch you should be using is the one Chouji used on GM where we know he's punching at full force and the mere resulting shockwave sends all the nearby shinobi flying.


Even if we compare that, it's still not even remotely close to Sakura's



> Do you think the strength difference between sakura and tsunade is so great that sakura would run right through a senjutsu V3 while tsunade is incapable of even damaging them?


Given her display yes I do.



> Hashirama even comments that sakura 'might' be worse than tsunade meaning they should be at least comparable.


Hashirama is not just talking about strength, but destructive personality. Sakura might be worse than Tsunade in that regard, not strength. And even if you wish to believe it had to do with purely strength, than of course there is a might there, because Hashirama hasn't seen Tsunade in many years.



> when sakura punches something that isn't earth, she doesn't produce any kind of shockwave.


There is a shockwave, its simply the Limbo Clone absorbing all the force, which is to be expected, as it's Juubidara. If she sent Juubidara flying she'd be up there with 8th-Gate Gai, at the very least, which would be utterly nonsensical.



> I don't think she'd be able to replicate what the tailed beasts did with a single punch.


The shockwaves say differently. And I see no reason to believe she couldn't. considering how far above other strength demons she is who have had some success against lower stages of Susano'o.


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## ueharakk (May 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Your looking at Tsunade's strikes after she was exhausted. I was looking at her strike when she was fresh. And even if her strikes increased in x5 in  strength in Part II due to no longer being rusty they would be no where near Sakura's.


Since when does breathing hard = your physical strikes take a steep dip in power?  Well they must have increased even more than 5x then.



Turrin said:


> *Were does it say Sakura used all of her might?* And even if we compare the punch used on the initialy juubi-fodder, which is stylistically the same punch as Choji's it's not even close to Sakura's.


When did I claim sakura used all her might?  Where does it say Sakura DIDN'T use all her might?  Don't waste my time with questions that imply the only evidence for arguments in this manga are explicit statements. 

If we have good reason to believe that both chouji and sakura aren't using their full strength on their targets, and we other instances in which chouji and sakura are



Turrin said:


> Even if we compare that, it's still not even remotely close to Sakura's


Based on what?



Turrin said:


> Given her display yes I do.


When has tsunade had any opportunity to hit the ground with her full strength in a comparable way to sakura in part 2? 



Turrin said:


> Hashirama is not just talking about strength, but destructive personality. Sakura might be worse than Tsunade in that regard, not strength. And even if you wish to believe it had to do with purely strength, than of course there is a might there, because Hashirama hasn't seen Tsunade in many years.


If he's talking about personality, he's including it alongside his assessment of their strength.  So they would be comparable in both independat categories of personality and strength, not some kind of category that is comprised of the sum of physical strength and personality.  Hashirama would never have factored punching strength into the mix if tsunade cant' even dent a V3 while Sakura punches through senjutsu powered V3s and slices off SM Madara's arm in the process.  



Turrin said:


> There is a shockwave, its simply the Limbo Clone absorbing all the force, which is to be expected, as it's Juubidara. If she sent Juubidara flying she'd be up there with 8th-Gate Gai, at the very least, which would be utterly nonsensical.


There isn't a shockwave, it's clear as day to anyone who's seen the manga that her fist creates just as much of a shockwave as any normal taijutsu hit when it hits the limbo clone.  Thus my point stands that the shockwave is only produced when she hits the earth or something that isn't durable.



Turrin said:


> The shockwaves say differently. And I see no reason to believe she couldn't. considering how far above other strength demons she is who have had some success against lower stages of Susano'o.


The shockwave argument would lead you to believe that Sakura in this latest chapter hits millions of times weaker than Sakura when she first activated the seal.  

Tsunade being directly compared to her by Hashirama is more than enough of a reason to believe she couldn't.
Tsunade making no shockwave at all when she hits a V3 is more than enough of a reason to believe she couldn't.
V1 Bee's feat leading to V2 Bee hitting around the same strength as sakura is more than enough of a reason to believe she couldn't.

What strength demons are you talking about?  Tsunade?  Sakura isn't above her when tsunade had no opportunity to hit the ground.  Ei?  Barely able to break through the ribs of a lesser V3 when he gets his punching strength increased by the same factor that lets a weak old man like oonoki *break through a boss clam with his weight.*


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## Mithos (May 17, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> why wouldn't she stand a chance of losing to base naruto?
> 
> Portrayal, base naruto was explicitly stated to be at least at kakashi's level back in the immortal's arc, and his base has gotten way stronger since then.



Naruto hasn't been portrayed as surpassing the Sannin until he gained Sage Mode. I just cannot see Kishi writing a fight where base Naruto defeats one of the Gokage or Sannin.


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## Ersa (May 17, 2014)

You can't really ignore Kishimoto's (admittedly poor) attempt to portray Sakura at the same level as KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Although feats don't support this really; it's still something we have to take into account considering this is a vastly weaker Naruto. Speed-wise they are fairly comparable, Base Naruto may have the edge but it's nothing substantial and Sakura should be fine keeping up. Clones are a waste of chakra I feel as with her chakra seal she can spam her ground pounds relentlessly. Those punches will kill most of his clones, compare the size of Naruto to a Juubi spawn then the spawn to her punch. As long as she can avoid FRS, Katsuyu support and ground pounds will take Naruto down eventually.

Sakura, high difficulty.


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## Jagger (May 17, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> If we take into consideration the fact that Rinnegan Sauce and BSM Rikduo Naruto couldn't stop her blitz or even reach Judara before Sakura could throw a punch in his face, Base Naruto certainly has no chance at avoiding her strike AoE.


Ok, I think you're heavily underestimating RS Naruto's/Sasuke's speed and reflexes here. 

It's the classic case of someone being surprised at another person and just looking at them, which falls under the category of CIS. Not to mention it's quite illogical how RS Naruto is slower than Sakura considering BM Naruto's shunshin was so fast that Kakashi with his Sharingan could barely keep with his movements.


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## Turrin (May 17, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Since when does breathing hard = your physical strikes take a steep dip in power?


Are you arguing right now that you throw the same quality of punch when physical exhausted as you do when fresh? I truly hope not.



> Well they must have increased even more than 5x then.


Why? Her strength x5 is being extremely generous and she could easily accomplish all of her PII feats with her strength x5. In-fact there is no reason to think she can't accomplish her PII feats with her non-exhausted PI strength showing. The Leg drop "feat" I showed is more than enough to back up her strength and so is her feat of splitting the earth with a touch of her finger:
*break through a boss clam with his weight.*



> Based on what?


It made a few of the weaker fodder go flying back a bit. Meanwhile Sakura's punch sent chunks of earth of titanic size go flying. 



> When has tsunade had any opportunity to hit the ground with her full strength in a comparable way to sakura in part 2?


I'm not one to disregard all of Part I, for absolutely no reason.



> If he's talking about personality, he's including it alongside his assessment of their strength. So they would be comparable in both independat categories of personality and strength, not some kind of category that is comprised of the sum of physical strength and personality. Hashirama would never have factored punching strength into the mix if tsunade cant' even dent a V3 while Sakura punches through senjutsu powered V3s and slices off SM Madara's arm in the process.


Okay so I looked at a better translation of the phrase:

what incredible superhuman strength… maybe she is even better than tsunade\\

Seems to me that Hashirama is saying because of Sakura's strength she might be an overall better ninja than Tsunade, not that she is might be better in strength specifically.



> There isn't a shockwave, it's clear as day to anyone who's seen the manga that her fist creates just as much of a shockwave as any normal taijutsu hit when it hits the limbo clone.


The only ones who created that impact on Limbo Clones were Sasuke and Naruto who are enhanced by the Sage's Senjutsu. Your really using this to downplay Sakura, come on now.



> hus my point stands that the shockwave is only produced when she hits the earth or something that isn't durable


I'm sorry, but I fail to see what your point is. Are you trying to say Sakura's punches are weaker than I say they are because Limbo Clones can block them? The same clones that have been tanking blows form Naruto who has S06P Senjutsu and the power of all 9 Bijuu.



> The shockwave argument would lead you to believe that Sakura in this latest chapter hits millions of times weaker than Sakura when she first activated the seal.


Or it leads me to believe that Limbo Clones are "millions of times" stronger than your giving them credit for being



> Tsunade being directly compared to her by Hashirama is more than enough of a reason to believe she couldn't.


Hashirama concluded that Tsunade might be inferior overall. That's all



> Tsunade making no shockwave at all when she hits a V3 is more than enough of a reason to believe she couldn't.


Sakura's vastly superior super-human strength suggest she may be able to do it.



> V1 Bee's feat leading to V2 Bee hitting around the same strength as sakura is more than enough of a reason to believe she couldn't.


When did V2 B hit around the same strength as Sakura. What are you even talking about?



> What strength demons are you talking about? Tsunade? Sakura isn't above her when tsunade had no opportunity to hit the ground. Ei? Barely able to break through the ribs of a lesser V3 when he gets his punching strength increased by the same factor that lets a weak old man like oonoki break through a boss clam with his weight.


Ei, BM-Choji, KN4, B, and Tsunade are all vastly surpassed by Sakura's strike power. Tsunade did have an opportunity to hit the ground your just choosing to ignore it.

This is exactly what I mean by downplaying. People going out of their way to not accept Sakura's feat, even though it's clear as day.


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## Trojan (May 17, 2014)

> When did V2 B hit around the same strength as Sakura. What are you even talking about?


I think he's talking about this
*break through a boss clam with his weight.*


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## ueharakk (May 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Are you arguing right now that you throw the same quality of punch when physical exhausted as you do when fresh? I truly hope not.


Not the exact same, but obviously the quality isn't going to go down an entire level or two.  Now are YOU arguing right now that when a person in narutoverse is breathing hard, that their physical hits drop a level or two below what they are normally capable of?  And also, are you arguing that breathing hard = low on chakra?



Turrin said:


> Why? Her strength x5 is being extremely generous and she could easily accomplish all of her PII feats with her strength x5. In-fact there is no reason to think she can't accomplish her PII feats with her non-exhausted PI strength showing. The Leg drop "feat" I showed is more than enough to back up her strength and so is her feat of splitting the earth with a touch of her finger:
> *break through a boss clam with his weight.*


If she's capable of all of her P2 feats with 5x her pt 1 strength, then sakura is only x5 her pt 1 strength.  She didn't split the earth with a touch of her finger, she split the earth by swinging her arm and upperbody and transfering that force to the earth through her finger.



Turrin said:


> It made a few of the weaker fodder go flying back a bit. Meanwhile Sakura's punch sent chunks of earth of titanic size go flying.


The only reason sakura's punch sent chunks of earth flying is because it hit the ground.  When she punches the juubiling or madara's limbo, we see no rock being sent anywhere.  Her punches don't even produce a shockwave.  Chouji on the otherhand lands a punch on GM probably a hundred+ meters above the ground, and his punch still creates a shockwave powerful enough to send distant shinobi flying.   Chouji punches the ground and he sends at least as much rock as sakura sends flying.



Turrin said:


> Okay so I looked at a better translation of the phrase:
> 
> what incredible superhuman strength… maybe she is even better than tsunade\\
> 
> Seems to me that Hashirama is saying because of Sakura's strength she might be an overall better ninja than Tsunade, not that she is might be better in strength specifically.


Hell no, anyone looking at that quote with even a shred of objectivity would conclude that hashirama isn't talking about overall shinobi, he's talking about their physical strength.  And lets pretend he IS talking about who's the better overall shinobi.  If he is comparing who's the better overall shinobi based on who's physically stronger, then obviously him saying she 'maybe' even better than tsunade means that they are at the very least comparable.



Turrin said:


> The only ones who created that impact on Limbo Clones were Sasuke and Naruto who are enhanced by the Sage's Senjutsu. Your really using this to downplay Sakura, come on now.


Top right panel of this page, does Sakura land a punch on something?  Do we see an impact from that hit?  Does that punch produce any sort of shockwave?  



Turrin said:


> I'm sorry, but I fail to see what your point is. Are you trying to say Sakura's punches are weaker than I say they are because Limbo Clones can block them? The same clones that have been tanking blows form Naruto who has S06P Senjutsu and the power of all 9 Bijuu.


 The point isn't whether or not limbo clones can block them, the point is that sakura's punches don't produce any shockwaves when they hit the limbo clones regardless if it hits the clones in the face the arm and regardless of the damage it does to them.



Turrin said:


> Or it leads me to believe that Limbo Clones are "millions of times" stronger than your giving them credit for being


I hope this is just a serious brain fart on your part as by your shockwave argument, the durability of those clones shouldn't have anything to do with whether she makes a shockwave with her punch or not.



Turrin said:


> Hashirama concluded that Tsunade might be inferior overall. That's all


If he did (which he obviously didn't considering one can't judge a shinobi overall by mere hitting strength) then he's basing his conclusion of their respective overall abilities by comparing their hitting strength, and thus since Sakura only 'might' be worse than tsunade their punches are at the very least comparable, there isn't a clear significant gap between them.



Turrin said:


> Sakura's vastly superior super-human strength suggest she may be able to do it.


That's pretty much a concession on your part since you ignore that tsunade doesn't produce a shockwave when she hits a V3 which would force you to conclude things like Ei > Tsunade in physical strength if you are basing their hits on shockwaves.  You've completely ignored the post you've just quoted.



Turrin said:


> When did V2 B hit around the same strength as Sakura. What are you even talking about?


Scaling by power of mode or damage to a singular entity.  We've seen how V1 Bee's lariat compares to sakura's punch.  V2 Bee's lariat is on at least an entire different level of power considering how V2 compares to V1, and how Kisame sustained way more damage from the V2 than Sasuke did from the V1 despite Bee's V2 having to go through Samehada first in order to even do anything to kisame and kisame's durability advantage over Sasuke.



Turrin said:


> Ei, BM-Choji, KN4, B, and Tsunade are all vastly surpassed by Sakura's strike power. Tsunade did have an opportunity to hit the ground your just choosing to ignore it.


Tsunade had an opportunity to hit the ground in part 1 when her strikes were below juugo's level.

Sakura's striking power absolutely does not surpass BM Chouji's or V2 Bee's, the only way you'd come to those conclusions is by evaluating their striking feats with double standards.  



Turrin said:


> This is exactly what I mean by downplaying. People going out of their way to not accept Sakura's feat, even though it's clear as day.


I don't think anyone who's read my posts would accuse it of downplaying Sakura.  It's a great feat, but people like BM chouji, V2 Bee, Ei with backpack oonoki, and tsunade have simply never been given the chance to punch the earth, their attacks have all been against a character or something durable.  We've seen when sakura doesn't punch the earth, she doesn't produce anything resembling a shockwave and no rocks go flying from the force of the hit.  Thus unless you want to use some kind of massive double standard, Chouji producing a shockwave that sends distant shinobi flying by punching GM at least puts him on her strength level.  V2 Bee is there as well considering how his lariat compares to V1 bee's, and how the destruction of V1 Bee's lariat compares to Sakura's.  backpack Ei is there as well considering the factor that weighted rocks increases Ei's punching strength.  And finally tsunade is there as well considering hashirama compared her strength to sakura's, or her to sakura based on their respective hitting strength.  

I think that when you have to ignore and attempt to strawman my arguments and the manga to such a degree it shows how unsupported your own assertions are and that you aren't after truth, but rather 'just being right' or the feeling of possessing information that will revolutionize mainstream thought.




Hussain said:


> I think he's talking about this
> *break through a boss clam with his weight.*


Kind of kind of not.  V2 Bee never hit the ground, but im arguing that if he did, it would be on the same level as sakura's punch considering what V1 bee does in that scan you provided and how V2 Bee hits on a whole different strength level than V1 bee.


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## Kyu (May 18, 2014)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> No, but there's nothing stopping her from doing it again.
> 
> And the shockwave and debris are going to damage the real Naruto too. Sooner or later he's going to be damaged enough to do down. Every time he's sent flying he's taking damage and slowing down, making each next consecutive attack harder for him to avoid.



Out of curiosity, how much damage do you see this "shockwave and debris" doing to him?  

He regenerates from minor injuries in mere seconds; so I'm fairly certain he'll be fine.

In all likelihood this'll come down to who outlasts who; a type of battle in which Naruto is the odds on favorite.


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## ueharakk (May 18, 2014)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Naruto hasn't been portrayed as surpassing the Sannin until he gained Sage Mode. I just cannot see Kishi writing a fight where base Naruto defeats one of the Gokage or Sannin.


Naruto hasn't been portrayed as surpassing _Jiraiya_ until he gained Sage mode.  The sannin might be portrayed as overall equals, but they aren't equals in direct combat.  Tsunade stands as an overall equal to orochimaru and jiraiya when her support abilities are factored in just like that instance where sakura is argued to be portrayed as KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke's equal, and then she immediately goes on to a purely support role while they attack the Juubi.

Plus with orochimaru's ability to use edo tensei, we already know that the sannin aren't all on the same level combat-wise.


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2014)

Context is everything. Kishi justified Tsunade being the _strongest_ female ninja in history by pointing out her equality to Jiraiya and Orochimaru, and in doing so inherently specifies battle strength.

Once you factor in this "overall ability" thing or whatever, Tsunade is probably _above_ Jiraiya, hence being enough of a better choice for Fifth Hokage that they could go from taking immediate action to waiting a couple weeks for Jiraiya to go find the lady whose whereabouts were unknown and they weren't even _sure_ was alive (Jiraiya was sure, but they said they didn't even know), because apparently she'd be worth the wait.

Sakura's hype stems from her obtaining Tsunade's abilities, Tsunade has been established as Jiraiya and Orochimaru's equal, Naruto and Sasuke surpassed Jiraiya and Orochimaru already (and sizably so at the point of the Ten Tails' revival). Sakura is not equal to them in any sense; she has only "caught up" in the sense that she can do more than stand around holding a kunai now.

And _Edo Tensei_ is not a power accessible by default. Orochi doesn't just carry around live sacrifices 24/7.


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## wooly Eullerex (May 18, 2014)

once the slug is de-summoned by Bunta +Cho rasengan clones, Sakura is pretty exposed.

Naruto wins mid difficulty; hes not going to engage her in taijutsu, at least not w/o tricking her - using 3~5 clones to set up his jutsu finisher.


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## Danzio (May 18, 2014)

Base Naruto can also still summon the boss toads and/or Ma and Pa.


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## wooly Eullerex (May 18, 2014)

^ thanks? yeah...


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## Danzio (May 18, 2014)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> ^ thanks? yeah...



Ha! I didn't read your post above mine; basically said the same.

Anyway, I can't see anywhere where Sakura would have the advantage bar regeneration which had be rendered useless due to Naruto's stamina and clones.


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## wooly Eullerex (May 18, 2014)

really? its all the same to me~


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## Danzio (May 18, 2014)

Great minds...


or just really, really obvious ;P


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## Turrin (May 18, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Not the exact same, but obviously the quality isn't going to go down an entire level or two.
> .


In real life the quality would go down more significantly than your giving it credit for, in manga the quality going down from exhaustion gets even more exaggerated; look at Hajime no Ippo one of the more realistic mangas, but even there the quality decrease is substantial. This on top of the fact that Tsunade uses chakra to increase the strength of her blows and exhaustion would force her to be more conservative. 



> Now are YOU arguing right now that when a person in narutoverse is breathing hard, that their physical hits drop a level or two below what they are normally capable of? And also, are you arguing that breathing hard = low on chakra?


Some one panting isn't a big deal, but the manga makes a specific point that it was Kabuto strategy to exhaust Tsunade and than pop a soldier pill himself.  Orochimaru literally says Tsunade is running out of breath, so that even further implies Tsunade's exhaustion. We can also tell the blatant difference in the strength of her blows. Look at the scans i've posted showing her strength when fresh than look at the creators in the scene you've posted, the differences is major. 

All of this tells us that Tsunade was significantly exhausted by that point.



> If she's capable of all of her P2 feats with 5x her pt 1 strength, then sakura is only x5 her pt 1 strength.


Yet Sakura's strength feat is far beyond x5, Tsunade's P1 strength; the comparison between Sakura's punch and Tsunade's leg drop demonstrates that indisputably. 



> She didn't split the earth with a touch of her finger, she split the earth by swinging her arm and upperbody and transfering that force to the earth through her finger.


It was still one of the most impressive strength feats in the manga considering her usage of a single finger and casual nature of the attack.



> The only reason sakura's punch sent chunks of earth flying is because it hit the ground. When she punches the juubiling or madara's limbo, we see no rock being sent anywhere. Her punches don't even produce a shockwave. Chouji on the otherhand lands a punch on GM probably a hundred+ meters above the ground, and his punch still creates a shockwave powerful enough to send distant shinobi flying. Chouji punches the ground and he sends at least as much rock as sakura sends flying.


Sakura did produce a shock-wave that sent the other Juubilings flying:
*Sandaime's body was also stated to be able to withstand 'any' jutsu.*

And if you compare this punch to BM-Choji's punch against Asuma, it's vastly more impressive.

We also see the impact of BM Choji having hit the ground, here with Kakuzu, and the creator is no where near the scope of Sakura's:
*Sandaime's body was also stated to be able to withstand 'any' jutsu.*

The impact shock-wave you keep referencing, was not created, by just Choji it was created by hits from Choji + Chouza.

Secondly looking back on that scene again it's not that impact shock-wave that is sending Shinobi near the ground flying, but rather the motion of all 3 giant entities. As the previous page shows the motion of GM alone cause shinobi to be blown back:
*Sandaime's body was also stated to be able to withstand 'any' jutsu.*

So it's not surprising that a few shinobi on the ground are being blow away when the motion of all 3 of them is at play. 

Any-way you look at it, BM-Chouji's "feats" are nowhere near the magnitude of Sakura's



> Hell no, anyone looking at that quote with even a shred of objectivity would conclude that hashirama isn't talking about overall shinobi, he's talking about their physical strength.


No someone with objectivity would realize that, the author clearly has Hashirama separate both thoughts.

First Kishimoto has Hashirama say what super-strength and then ends that thought bring up a new one, where he says Sakura might be better than Tsunade. And the author does not qualify better as referring to strength, but simply leaves it as a general statement. So objectively speaking the more likely interpretation is that he is referring to in general, that also fits with the entire context of the scene which is about Sakura reaching, potentially surpassing Tsunade's "level", and thus being able to compete with Naruto/Sasuke in that instance.

At the very least, we'd have to conclude the statement by itself is ambiguous; though that is being very generous.



> And lets pretend he IS talking about who's the better overall shinobi. If he is comparing who's the better overall shinobi based on who's physically stronger, then obviously him saying she 'maybe' even better than tsunade means that they are at the very least comparable.


Nope. Sakura can be far stronger than Tsunade, and that makes up for her lacking Tsunade's experience, jutsu pool, and knowledge. This is consistently how we see the younger gen surpassing the older gen. Naruto would have never surpassed Kakashi in the wind-arc if he only had slightly better raw-power than Kakashi; he surpassed Kakashi and end up a bit stronger than him, because his raw-power was far above Kakashi's, which made up for Kakashi superior exp, jutsu-pool, etc... basically things that can only be achieved through a great deal of time. Same thing with Naruto surpassing Jiriaya and Naruto surpassing the Hokages. It's always, been raw-power making up for these other attributes, because that is thee only way the younger gen could surpass the older gen at 16 years old.

So Hashirama seeing Sakura's strength (or raw) power being far beyond Tsunade, believes she might have surpassed Tsunade, because her Raw-power being greater makes up for these other qualities Tsuande possess over Sakura. The "maybe" is probably their because Hashirama hasn't seen Tsunade in awhile and is unaware of just how much she has improved.



> Top right panel of this page, does Sakura land a punch on something? Do we see an impact from that hit? Does that punch produce any sort of shockwave?


We do see an impact. The punch doesn't produce a shock-wave, because Limbo clone absorbs all of it's striking force; Sakura may also not be at her best with a black elemental rod through her. 



> The point isn't whether or not limbo clones can block them, the point is that sakura's punches don't produce any shockwaves when they hit the limbo clones regardless if it hits the clones in the face the arm and regardless of the damage it does to them.


But again there is no point to this, because it's a Limbo Clone, which are ungodly strong. Of course she isn't blowing a Limbo clone away. That proves nothing, but she can't blow away the strongest character in the verse (besides Rikudo or Kaguya).



> hope this is just a serious brain fart on your part as by your shockwave argument, the durability of those clones shouldn't have anything to do with whether she makes a shockwave with her punch or not


If the medium prevents the wave from propagating through it, it's going to stop the shock-wave from happening. That's what's happening here. Limbo Clone was too strong of a medium for the wave created from her punch to get past. Or to put it in Kishi's terms, the character in question was too strong for a shockwave to occur.



> That's pretty much a concession on your part since you ignore that tsunade doesn't produce a shockwave when she hits a V3 which would force you to conclude things like Ei > Tsunade in physical strength


What the hell. When has Ei created a shockwave when hitting V3 Susano'o. Tsunade didn't create one as she met with a medium that was too strong for the wave to propagate. It's the same thing as Sakura vs Limbo Clone, except Limbo-Clone is far stronger than V3 Susano'o.  



> if you are basing their hits on shockwaves. You've completely ignored the post you've just quoted.


I've been comparing Tsunade and Sakura based on them hitting the same medium; the ground. Your the one whose brought up comparisons based on different mediums and I still struggle to see the point of it. Of course if you hit a harder medium than the earth, the shock-wave is going to be lessened, no one is doubting that. But once again i'm comparing both of them hitting the earth.



> Scaling by power of mode or damage to a singular entity. We've seen how V1 Bee's lariat compares to sakura's punch. V2 Bee's lariat is on at least an entire different level of power considering how V2 compares to V1, and how Kisame sustained way more damage from the V2 than Sasuke did from the V1 despite Bee's V2 having to go through Samehada first in order to even do anything to kisame and kisame's durability advantage over Sasuke.


Are you talking about when V1-B jump from the top of a mountain and came crashing back to earth. If so perhaps if V2-B did the same thing he could create an explosion that starts to get closer to Sakura's punch, but I really don't know if it would be at the same magnitude of Sakura's punch or not as we haven't ever seen V2-B do anything like that. Though I'd imagine if Sakura did the same thing, she'd create an even larger explosion than her punch did, anyway, so so there is that to consider as well.



> Tsunade had an opportunity to hit the ground in part 1 when her strikes were below juugo's level.


You keep referring to her being below Juugo level in Part I but I see no indication of that at all. 

Her Leg Drop and Finger cracking the earth is more impressive than anything Juugo has accomplished with strength. A single hit was considered lethal by Orochimaru (& Kabuto) of all people, who have top class regen and durability. Etc...

The only thing I can think your referring to is this:
*Sandaime's body was also stated to be able to withstand 'any' jutsu.*

But Juugo very clearly used those wierd thrusters on his arm to push B away. B took Juugo's punch a page previously and it did little to nothing to him:
*Sandaime's body was also stated to be able to withstand 'any' jutsu.*

Or perhaps this:
*Sandaime's body was also stated to be able to withstand 'any' jutsu.*

But not only was that a double handed blow, but once again used some weird armament that has little to do with actual strength.

I have no problem believing that Juugo's weird armaments with varying effects can allow him to create larger explosions than Tsunade's Punches.

As far as Juugo's actual strength is concerned. We saw that very clearly here and it was nowhere near the magnitude of P1 Tsunade's punches:
*Sandaime's body was also stated to be able to withstand 'any' jutsu.*


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (May 18, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Out of curiosity, how much damage do you see this "shockwave and debris" doing to him?
> 
> He regenerates from minor injuries in mere seconds; so I'm fairly certain he'll be fine.
> 
> In all likelihood this'll come down to who outlasts who; a type of battle in which Naruto is the odds on favorite.



The shockwave and explosion occured by one of Sakura's ground pounds apparently packed enough force behind it to blow many Juubi clones into smithereens [1] (look closely at the black specks). Even the ones that weren't blown up were apparently killed or knocked unconscious. The Juubi clones were really durable, too, so from that I would imagine that the damage he'd sustain from her ground pound could be pretty significant.

As for it coming down to a battle of attrition, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Sakura's reserves rivalled Naruto's at this point. With _at most_ a few weeks of chakra storage in her seal, Tsunade was capable of healing, rejuvenating and chakra boosting the other four Kage, as well as regenerate from dozens of critical injuries and throw numerous strikes at Madara. Her chakra levels during that fight were nothing short of _monstrous_. 

Sakura has _three years_ of chakra storage. In theory, that is between 52 and 78 times as much chakra as Tsunade had stored up. That is on top of Sakura's already impressive base chakra reserves, where she can heal and chakra pump various different ninja throughout the war before pulling out Katsuyu and mass healing the entire alliance, _twice_, and not feeling any fatigue by the end of it.

In short, if this match comes down to one of attrition then I think Naruto and Sakura are pretty comparable in stamina. I don't know who would win if that was the case.​​


----------



## Mercurial (May 18, 2014)

maupp said:


> The base Naruto under estimation is reaching new height. I can't believe people are now arguing whether Naruto can tag freaking Sakura of all people . She only improved in smashing and bakoto and that's it, none of which change much between her and Base Naruto.
> 
> She always been a heavy hitter and smash hard. Her byakoto is useless here given FRS render it obsolete. Some people are acting as if Sakura demonstrated new speed feats, taijutu feats or other ubber tech that would really help her against Base Naruto that she didn't have before .
> 
> ...



I think this post sums everything pretty well.


----------



## Kyu (May 18, 2014)

> As for it coming down to a battle of attrition, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Sakura's reserves rivalled Naruto's at this point. With _at most_ a few weeks of chakra storage in her seal, Tsunade was capable of healing, rejuvenating and chakra boosting the other four Kage, as well as regenerate from dozens of critical injuries and throw numerous strikes at Madara. Her chakra levels during that fight were nothing short of _monstrous_.
> 
> Sakura has _three years_ of chakra storage. In theory, that is between 52 and 78 times as much chakra as Tsunade had stored up. That is on top of Sakura's already impressive base chakra reserves, where she can heal and chakra pump various different ninja throughout the war before pulling out Katsuyu and mass healing the entire alliance, _twice_, and not feeling any fatigue by the end of it.



Despite her noteworthy feats throughout the war, when healing a dying Naruto, taking place after Sakura was enhanced for lengthy period of time by Naruto's chakra that he transferred earlier. 

In spite of the aid Naruto's chakra provided, she reached her limits rather quickly, opposed to say a...._Fūton-Training_ Naruto who presumably had a lot less chakra to burn 4 arcs prior. The same kid who  was able to sustain 200 clones for an entire day. 



> In short, if this match comes down to one of attrition then I think Naruto and Sakura are pretty comparable in stamina. I don't know who would win if that was the case.



As a member of the Uzumaki Clan, Naruto's base(kinda no longer exists but meh) reserves were always>>>Sakura's base reserves.

Later on her's of course skyrocketed as she accumulated chakra via Yin seal.

However, . His chakra pool exceeds Sakura's in its entirety  by an astronomical margin; seeing as how the young toad sage can casually distribute his chakra amoung 30,000 lesser shinobi and ....

No need to even go into detail on the chakra he currently has from Biju 1-8.


----------



## Lurko (May 18, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> I think this post sums everything pretty well.



I agree people are underestimating Base Naruto a lot and wanking Sakura a lot which I didn't think was possible until now..


----------



## Etherborn (May 18, 2014)

Naruto is much faster, and he still has shadow clones, summonings, and many rasengan variants, including rasenshuriken, which one shots once it hits since it bypasses her healing. I give it to him.


----------



## Veracity (May 18, 2014)

What the fuck? Part 1 Tsuande is most certainly not weaker then freaking Jugo. Making a bigger boom against the ground means literally nothing. It's an exaggeration method that Kishi uses frequently. Ay's Liger bomb produced a smaller AoE crater then Tsuandes leg drop, and even I don't think they part 1 Tsuande is any superior to amped Ay in physical strength. Mind you V1 Ay manhandled Jugo.

Also Shouten Kisame made a rather gigantic water splash against Gai that knocked him to the bottom of the frighten lake :  (1)

Yet a fodder toad and Asuma can block the full weight of actual Kisame and his damn sword without even flinching, and without the ground even cracking:  (1)
 (1)


----------



## ueharakk (May 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> -snip-


What happens in real life when people become fatigued is irrelevant if the manga falsifies that, show me in the naruto manga where people's punches go down a full level or two when they merely start to huff and puff.  Sasuke vs Deidara, chakra-wise Sasuke is in far worse of a condition than tsunade yet *it isn't implied that he hits any less hard than usual.*  Finally, if a person consciously deciding to weaken their blows when they aren't near the end of their chakra supply is true, then how can we use any of tsunade's war arc feats?



Turrin said:


> -snip-


Despite that, the fight hadn't even begun yet, and tsunade was only shown drained after orochimaru fled the scene, so sure she was out of breath, sure kabuto's plan was to exhaust her, but at that point in time she wasn't anywhere nearing empty.
Her kick was a complete and telegraphed wind-up, I wouldn't expect random punches where tsunade is just trying to tag them to be as powerful as that.



Turrin said:


> All of this tells us that Tsunade was significantly exhausted by that point.


yeah, she's significantly exhausted which she displays by huffing and puffing.



Turrin said:


> Yet Sakura's strength feat is far beyond x5, Tsunade's P1 strength; the comparison between Sakura's punch and Tsunade's leg drop demonstrates that indisputably.


Then that must mean PT2 Tsuande has far beyond x5 tsunade's P1 strenght...



Turrin said:


> It was still one of the most impressive strength feats in the manga considering her usage of a single finger and casual nature of the attack.


'impressive' is subjective, and does *tsunade's face* or her later striking feats against orochimaru and kabuto indicate anything about that attack being casual?  

Tsunade used a single finger because she needed such a small point of contact in order to create the fissure.



Turrin said:


> Sakura did produce a shock-wave that sent the other Juubilings flying:
> *tsunade's face*


That's the speed at which the juubiling was sent traveling that produced that shockwave, I'm talking about the initial impact.  In addition to that, the juubilings that are in the air are in the direct path of the one that was sent, while the ones that were only a few meters away are merely knocked down.



Turrin said:


> And if you compare this punch to BM-Choji's punch against Asuma, it's vastly more impressive.


We didn't even see Asuma travel to the rock, and  why would you use instances where chouji and sakura have good reason to hold back in order to compare their punches?



Turrin said:


> We also see the impact of BM Choji having hit the ground, here with Kakuzu, and the creator is no where near the scope of Sakura's:
> *tsunade's face*


Are you arguing that chouji used a full powered butterfly punch with his left hand to pin kakuzu to the ground?  If not, then don't bring up points that are falsified by your own view.



Turrin said:


> The impact shock-wave you keep referencing, was not created, by just Choji it was created by hits from Choji + Chouza.


Don't waste my time with ridiculous and blatantly false assertions.



Turrin said:


> -snip-


The previous page shows no shinobi even remotely close to where GM and Chouji and Chouza would be clashing.  All the shinobi that were behind GM would have already been sent flying away by him running there, and we explicitly see that a shockwave is created by chouji's punch *as it spans the entire bottom and bottom right of the panel where he punches GM.*



Turrin said:


> Any-way you look at it, BM-Chouji's "feats" are nowhere near the magnitude of Sakura's


Um no, anyway you look at it BM chouji's strongest punch is at least on the level of Sakura's strongest punch as he's hitting something far more durable than she is and is creating a shockwave that sends distant shinobi flying.



Turrin said:


> No someone with objectivity would realize that, the author clearly has Hashirama separate both thoughts.
> -snip-
> 
> At the very least, we'd have to conclude the statement by itself is ambiguous; though that is being very generous.


Again, that's obviously not the objective view of that statement.  Lets go by your logic and say Hashirama is gauging their levels via their strength.  If Hashirama is gauging their levels via strength and Sakura only 'might' be above tsunade, then that must mean their strengths are comparable.  If there was a major gap in their strength and hashirama was using their strengths to compare them, then he'd say Sakura IS worse than tsunade.  It's not ambiguous, hashirama sees a strength feat from sakura, thus that has to be what he's using to draw whatever conclusion he draws.



Turrin said:


> -snip-


Yet all Hashirama is gauging her standing with tsunade IS raw power.  he has absolutely no idea where she stands in terms of all those other attributes, thus how could he possible be factoring in those other attributes?  the answer is clear to the objective and unbiased: that he compared their striking strengths, the one thing that he had knowledge on, the one thing of sakura's that his statement and half the chapter was focused on.

Finally, he uses the word "worse".  Why would he use 'worse' if he's refering to overal ability as a shinobi?  He's obviously refering to an attribute that's not necessarily seen in a positive light which would be their inhuman destructive power despite being women.

In addition to that, Naruto didn't merely surpass kakashi because he developed more firepower, if you read back naruto himself went through intelligence growth with that training. 




Turrin said:


> So Hashirama seeing Sakura's strength (or raw) power being far beyond Tsunade, believes she might have surpassed Tsunade, because her Raw-power being greater makes up for these other qualities Tsuande possess over Sakura. The "maybe" is probably their because Hashirama hasn't seen Tsunade in awhile and is unaware of just how much she has improved.


Which is an illogical and impossible conclusion that you are forced to hold.



Turrin said:


> We do see an impact. *The punch doesn't produce a shock-wave, because Limbo clone absorbs all of it's striking force*; Sakura may also not be at her best with a black elemental rod through her.


What in the world is the bolded based on?  Are limbo clones made of jelly?  By that logic, every striking feat in which anyone doesn't make a shockwave can be attributed to the target absorbing all the force, and thus anyone can punch as hard as sakura, it's just that all of their previous targets absorbed all of the force of their punches.



Turrin said:


> But again there is no point to this, because it's a Limbo Clone, which are ungodly strong. Of course she isn't blowing a Limbo clone away. That proves nothing, but she can't blow away the strongest character in the verse (besides Rikudo or Kaguya).


Don't waste my time.



Turrin said:


> If the medium prevents the wave from propagating through it, it's going to stop the shock-wave from happening. That's what's happening here. Limbo Clone was too strong of a medium for the wave created from her punch to get past. Or to put it in Kishi's terms, the character in question was too strong for a shockwave to occur.
> 
> What the hell. When has Ei created a shockwave when hitting V3 Susano'o. Tsunade didn't create one as she met with a medium that was too strong for the wave to propagate. It's the same thing as Sakura vs Limbo Clone, except Limbo-Clone is far stronger than V3 Susano'o.


Then by this logic, why would you compare the explosion of her punch to that of the tailed beasts which are hitting susanoo?  




Turrin said:


> I've been comparing Tsunade and Sakura based on them hitting the same medium; the ground. Your the one whose brought up comparisons based on different mediums and I still struggle to see the point of it. Of course if you hit a harder medium than the earth, the shock-wave is going to be lessened, no one is doubting that.  But once again i'm comparing both of them hitting the earth.


We've already been over why comparing part 1 tsunade to war arc p2 tsunade is obviously fallacious.



Turrin said:


> Are you talking about when V1-B jump from the top of a mountain and came crashing back to earth. If so perhaps if V2-B did the same thing he could create an explosion that starts to get closer to Sakura's punch, but* I really don't know if it would be at the same magnitude of Sakura's punch or not as we haven't ever seen V2-B do anything like that. *Though I'd imagine if Sakura did the same thing, she'd create an even larger explosion than her punch did, anyway, so so there is that to consider as well.


the bolded isn't a positive argument for why V2 Bee wouldn't be able to do such a thing.  The vertical distance that both traveled aren't even that different, and that hardly matters as we've seen obito people fall from a kilometer+ in the sky and land without even cracking the ground.  



Turrin said:


> You keep referring to her being below Juugo level in Part I but I see no indication of that at all.
> 
> Her Leg Drop and Finger cracking the earth is more impressive than anything Juugo has accomplished with strength. A single hit was considered lethal by Orochimaru (& Kabuto) of all people, who have top class regen and durability. Etc...
> 
> ...


If juugo's hits are enhanced by his thrusters, and we are comparing their hits, then why wouldn't he hit harder than Tsunade?


----------



## Turrin (May 21, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> What happens in real life when people become fatigued is irrelevant


Where is it implied Sasuke hit Deidara just as hard as he usually would? And again Sasuke doesn't enhance his strikes with chakra, so it not comparable.



> if a person consciously deciding to weaken their blows when they aren't near the end of their chakra supply is true, then how can we use any of tsunade's war arc feats?


Which feats are you referring to?



> Despite that, the fight hadn't even begun yet, and tsunade was only shown drained after orochimaru fled the scene, so sure she was out of breath, sure kabuto's plan was to exhaust her, but at that point in time she wasn't anywhere nearing empty.


The fight had already begun, it's just that Kabuto was simply running around the whole time, instead of actually trying to attack her. Kabuto having to pop a soldier pill should tell you that enough of a fight happened of panel to exhaust someone significantly. Tsunade also did not do much chakra taxing things after that, until she released the extra chakra she had stored in her Yin-Seal. 

I mean basically your arguing a strategy Kabuto employed and was highlighted by the manga, did absolutely nothing. 



> Her kick was a complete and telegraphed wind-up, I wouldn't expect random punches where tsunade is just trying to tag them to be as powerful as that.


Not being as strong as a telegraphed attack and being no where even remotely close are two different things entirely. Not to mention even in the scan you posted we can see a progression of the craters getting smaller as Tsunade became more exhausted. The previous craters are larger than the one Tsunade is standing in, I.E. the last one she created:
*how many BM clones Naruto is limited to*

Than her punch here barely create any indentation at all:
*how many BM clones Naruto is limited to*



> Then that must mean PT2 Tsuande has far beyond x5 tsunade's P1 strenght...


How did Tsunade increase her strength that much? Saying her strength differed from being rusty is even being extremely generous on my part, as Jiraiya states her strength hasn't changed:
*how many BM clones Naruto is limited to*

And while discussing that panel Jiriaya says she once punched him 100m. So she also has that strength feat as early as Part I



> 'impressive' is subjective, and does tsunade's face or her later striking feats against orochimaru and kabuto indicate anything about that attack being casual?
> 
> Tsunade used a single finger because she needed such a small point of contact in order to create the fissure.


Yes all of it looks casual as hell. Was she surprised Naruto attempted Rasengan, yet, but that doesn't mean she was using anywhere close to her full power.



> That's the speed at which the juubiling was sent traveling that produced that shockwave, I'm talking about the initial impact.


Wait so there wasn't a shockwave, if we ignore the shockwave lol. I mean what is your argument....  



> We didn't even see Asuma travel to the rock, and why would you use instances where chouji and sakura have good reason to hold back in order to compare their punches?


Choji sure as hell did not look like he was holding back, and in-fact the entire build up to that was about Choji not holding back. 

And we don't need to see Asuma travel to the rock we saw when he smashed into the rock and there was no where near the destructive force behing him as their was with the Juubi clone Sakura hit.



> Are you arguing that chouji used a full powered butterfly punch with his left hand to pin kakuzu to the ground? If not, then don't bring up points that are falsified by your own view.


Let's say it was a t 25% of his full power, it still wouldn't even remotely compare to Sakura's punch, which once again you have not proved was Sakura's full power ether. So unless you think Choji daintily tapped Kakuzu to the ground using next to none of his strength there is no way he is even coming remotely close to Sakura given that feat, and in-fact his feat is more comparable to Tsunade's exhausted punches, which seems about right.



> Don't waste my time with ridiculous and blatantly false assertions.


umm...choza did hit GM, he slammed into him and than choji punch him right afterwards. All the commotion being kicked up from all 3 of them.



> The previous page shows no shinobi even remotely close to where GM and Chouji and Chouza would be clashing.


What I see is a dust cloud being kicked up and blown around by the commotion of all three giant entities moving around, and that's exactly what is happening. People are being blown away by the combined commotion of all 3 giant entities. 



> Again, that's obviously not the objective view of that statement.


Okay so I look at the raw and translated it myself. 

Hashirama, "what absurd superhuman strength....you know it's perhaps beyond Tsuna "

Basic break down:

1. what absurd (なんという)
2.  superhuman strength (怪力)
3. アレ (Share opinion; you know)
4. は (kind of means "it")
4. Tsuna (綱)
5. beyond (以上)
6. perhaps (かもしれない)

The "は" refers to "superhuman strength" not Sakura or "she", so it seems the other translator took liberties and I can admit when I was wrong, that it's not about talking surpassing her in general. The subject is simply "super-human-strength"

With that said, I do not think your interpretation of this to mean Sakura is close to Tsunade in super-human strength is correct ether. Kishi's specifically stresses that  statement is done within the context of Hashirama's opinion w/ the usage of "アレ". This makes me believe that  Kishimoto specifically included "かもしれない" because it's coming from Hashirama. Simply put Kishi has Hashirama include "かもしれない", because Hashirama as a character wouldn't know for sure if Sakura's super human strength was better than Tsunade's, as he's never seen current Tsunade in action. Also bare in mind 以上 means beyond, but also can be taken to mean that Sakura does not fall behind Tsunade in super-human strength, but is actually better.

So to put this all together the way I take the statement after looking at the raw, is that Hashirama after seeing Sakura's display is sure she's as good as Tsunade and thinks she's likely better than Tsunade, but can't be 100% sure because he's Hashirama and has been dead all this time.

Looking at this deeper, and considering Kishimoto's thoughts on this, "アレ" is usually used when a character is speaking to the reader, as well, so given that I think Kishimoto does want use to take Hashirama's opinion that Sakura super-human strength is beyond Tsunade's seriously and is simply covering his ass by putting in "かもしれない", as if he had Hashirama make a definitive statement, than readers would be like, how the fuck does Hashirama know for sure, when he's been dead all this time. So to me it's almost like Kishi is having Hashirama breaks the third-wall and magically possess knowledge he shouldn't have, and than is like well I did put "かもしれない" in there so you can't say it's a total plot-hole (though in actuality it pretty much is lol).

Side Note - I fucking hate Hashirama now, his goddam nick-name for Tsunade, 綱 (Tsuna or Tuna) gave me unending trouble to translate, until I finally realized it was a dumb nickname. God dam you Hashirama



> What in the world is the bolded based on? Are limbo clones made of jelly? By that logic, every striking feat in which anyone doesn't make a shockwave can be attributed to the target absorbing all the force,.


That's exactly correct. In manga world if the target is strong enough it can absorb all the force.



> and thus anyone can punch as hard as sakura, it's just that all of their previous targets absorbed all of the force of their punches


Again I never was comparing Sakura's punch to other people's punches on different targets, I was comparing their punches against rock/ground to Sakura's punch on rock/ground. The only other thing I compared was Sakura's punch on Juubi Clone to Choji's Punch on Asuma, but Asuma has no special durability feats that makes me think he should be vastly different than Juubi-Clone.



> Don't waste my time.


Please don't waste my time, by trying to downgrade Sakura's prior feats then by brining up how a god-level limbo clone handled her punch.



> hen by this logic, why would you compare the explosion of her punch to that of the tailed beasts which are hitting susanoo?


Because they also hit the ground. Sakura's main target with her punch was Juubi-clone, but she also hit the ground.



> We've already been over why comparing part 1 tsunade to war arc p2 tsunade is obviously fallacious.


And we went over the fact that I don't think your argument for ignoring Part I is credible enough.



> bolded isn't a positive argument for why V2 Bee wouldn't be able to do such a thing.


It was never meant to be. I specifically said I do not know w/ V2 B as we don't have any "feats" to compare V2-B to Sakura. I know V1 B even when dive bombing hit entire wieght into a lariate form the top of a mountain to the ground, was not even enough to come anywhere close to Sakura's punch. V2 B Idk.



> e The vertical distance that both traveled aren't even that different, and that hardly matters as we've seen obito people fall from a kilometer+ in the sky and land without even cracking the ground.


B went from the top of a mountain, are you saying Sakura's jump was mountain sized lol. Come on now. And of course it matters, as you build up more force when you fall. 



> If juugo's hits are enhanced by his thrusters, and we are comparing their hits, then why wouldn't he hit harder than Tsunade?


Because Juugo actual hit on B did nothing. He didn't use the thruster and than punch B with that force, his hand was already on B's face and than he just pushed him away. Now perhaps Juugo could do something like that, but we've never seen him do so.

The second time we don't even know what he did as it was off paneled, and therefore we have no clue how that CS2 "attachment" works. It could have caused lazers to explode out of his hands for all we know. Juugo has shown a wide array of CS2 "attachments" after all. And even assuming that specific "attachment" did work by increasing striking power to that extent, I do not have a problem with Juugo w/ CS2 enhancing his natural strength, special attachment enhancing his striking power, and using both hands dealing greater striking force than Tsunade, I see nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 21, 2014)

Just like in a lot of Tsunade matches the problem is not Sakura's attack power. She can one shot Naruto(base anyway).

Thing is she is not going to hit him...like ever.


----------



## ueharakk (May 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Where is it implied Sasuke hit Deidara just as hard as he usually would? And again Sasuke doesn't enhance his strikes with chakra, so it not comparable.


um, because if Sasuke hits on a totally different level than what he did, he would have been able to one-shot deidara with a punch while people like KN0 Naruto land multiple hits on him and don't do as much damage.



Turrin said:


> Which feats are you referring to?


all of them.  Tsunade has reason to conserve chakra at all times in the war, so we'd never be able to say that she's using her full strength in a punch.



Turrin said:


> -snip-
> 
> *I mean basically your arguing a strategy Kabuto employed and was highlighted by the manga, did absolutely nothing.*


I'm arguing that at that point in time, she wasn't close to empty.  How in the world does that imply that kabuto's strategy did absolutely nothing?



Turrin said:


> Not being as strong as a telegraphed attack and being no where even remotely close are two different things entirely.


so if someone runs jumps, and does a fully wind up punch right to the face, it's not going to do much more damage than a standing jab to the same area?



Turrin said:


> -snip-
> *if he only notices bee at midrange.*
> 
> Than her punch here barely create any indentation at all:
> *if he only notices bee at midrange.*


okay i'll grant that.



Turrin said:


> How did Tsunade increase her strength that much? Saying her strength differed from being rusty is even being extremely generous on my part, as Jiraiya states her strength hasn't changed:
> *if he only notices bee at midrange.*




And while discussing that panel Jiriaya says she once punched him 100m. So she also has that strength feat as early as Part I[/QUOTE]
Her strength has been retconned since part 1.  Punching someone 100 meters is childsplay in the current manga, a *weakened Kakashi can probably punch sasuke 50 meters.*  Base Ei knocks bee far away with a mere side swipe, KN1 Naruto sends orochimaru *through over a hundred meters of trees* with a claw attack, *SM Naruto sends kakashi over a hundred meters away with a push*.  That's how her strength increased so much since part 1 in addition to getting much stronger.



Turrin said:


> Yes all of it looks casual as hell. Was she surprised Naruto attempted Rasengan, yet, but that doesn't mean she was using anywhere close to her full power.


Tell me what kind of expression you see tsunade wearing when she swings her arm to make the fissure and tell me why you believe that's anything resembling 'casual as hell'.  Why isn't she using her full power?  Is that feat contradicted by her other feats?



Turrin said:


> Wait so there wasn't a shockwave, if we ignore the shockwave lol. I mean what is your argument....


Don't waste my time.  



Turrin said:


> Choji sure as hell did not look like he was holding back, and in-fact the entire build up to that was about Choji not holding back.


The buildup was chouji gaining confidence in himself and being able to fight his teacher, if it was about holding back, chouji held back as the strategy was to pin asuma against the wall and seal him.



Turrin said:


> And we don't need to see Asuma travel to the rock we saw when he smashed into the rock and there was no where near the destructive force behing him as their was with the Juubi clone Sakura hit.


really now?  Did we see the juubi clone slam into anything?  



Turrin said:


> -snip-


Why say it's at 25% of his full power?  Considering kakuzu was implied to have just been pinned, all the evidence suggests that chouji didn't even use his butterfly fist for that attack as there is no aura around his hand. 



Turrin said:


> umm...choza did hit GM, he slammed into him and than choji punch him right afterwards. All the commotion being kicked up from all 3 of them.


Wait what?  Chouza's staff was blocked by GM's hands you can clearly see that *here*, and all the commotion on the top panel of chouji's punch is from just chouji's punch.  Chouza's standing in the same position he was in and we see one giant impact FX where chouji's fist makes contact with GM.  The commotion was absolutely not from all three of them, no one creates that kind of shockwave from just shifting around.



Turrin said:


> What I see is a dust cloud being kicked up and blown around by the commotion of all three giant entities moving around, and that's exactly what is happening. People are being blown away by the combined commotion of all 3 giant entities.


What in the world leads you to believe that?  Chouza's in the same position he was when he clashed with GM, GM isn't moving since we can see there aren't any splashes by its feet, and chouji is in the air.  The only thing happening in that panel is chouji slamming his fist into GM, anyone looking at that scan with even a shred of objectivity or honesty would conclude it's chouji's punch that causes that shockwave.  Show me one other scan of a dust cloud looking like that or giant entities creating such a shockwave by just moving around.  *Even the anime shows chouji's punch creating the shockwave that sends those shinobi flying.* 

and like i said before, no one is even close to them, so even if we didn't know chouza and GM weren't moving, why would we think anyone would be blasted away by the movement of their feet?



Turrin said:


> Okay so I look at the raw and translated it myself.
> 
> So to put this all together the way I take the statement after looking at the raw, is that Hashirama after seeing Sakura's display is sure she's as good as Tsunade and thinks she's likely better than Tsunade, but can't be 100% sure because he's Hashirama and has been dead all this time.


If Sakura can do what the tailed beasts did with a punch while tsunade can't even dent a clone's V3, then there would be no way that hashirama would even question whether her strength is above tsunade's or not.  No one can be 100% sure about anything, so trying to discredit the statement because hashirama wouldn't be 100% sure is meaningless.  The statement is as blatant as author's intent statements get: Sakura is probably stronger than tsunade, but on the same level.  



Turrin said:


> That's exactly correct. In manga world if the target is strong enough it can absorb all the force.


okay good



Turrin said:


> Again I never was comparing Sakura's punch to other people's punches on different targets, I was comparing their punches against rock/ground to Sakura's punch on rock/ground. The only other thing I compared was Sakura's punch on Juubi Clone to Choji's Punch on Asuma, but Asuma has no special durability feats that makes me think he should be vastly different than Juubi-Clone.


how is the damage sakura's punch did to the juubi's clone on a different level than chouji's punch to asuma?  Remember now that chouji's punch is spread across asuma's entire body while sakura's is only on a fist-sized area.  



Turrin said:


> Please don't waste my time, by trying to downgrade Sakura's prior feats then by brining up how a god-level limbo clone handled her punch.


Reread what you quoted.  Have I ever EVER said ANYTHING that even resembled some kind of argument pertaining to how a limbo clone took Sakura's punch?  Hell No, I even went out of my way to explicitly state that how the limbo clone took the punch is completely irrelevant to what i'm arguing.  Thus for the millionth time, DONT WASTE MY TIME.



Turrin said:


> Because they also hit the ground. Sakura's main target with her punch was Juubi-clone, but she also hit the ground.



No they don't.  Naruto explicitly told them to overlap their tails, thus it's bijuu tail hitting bijuu tail, and even the bottom tail (Naruto's BM tail) would only contact the ground after it breaks through susanoo.  
Plus even if it was true that they were also hitting the ground, how would that make it comparable to sakura's punch?  Sakura's punching pure earth, the tails would be hitting susanoo and the ground, considering the bijuu are trying to hit susanoo with its tails and not the ground how is that a genuine comparison?




Turrin said:


> It was never meant to be. I specifically said I do not know w/ V2 B as we don't have any "feats" to compare V2-B to Sakura. I know V1 B even when dive bombing hit entire wieght into a lariate form the top of a mountain to the ground, was not even enough to come anywhere close to Sakura's punch. V2 B Idk.


And I gave you an argument for scaling the damage V2 B's lariat would do based on two different comparisons, yet you've given no reason to disregard those comparisons.



Turrin said:


> B went from the top of a mountain, are you saying Sakura's jump was mountain sized lol. Come on now. *And of course it matters, as you build up more force when you fall.*


Don't waste my time.  *Is Bee on the top of a mountain?* *Did bee hit the bottom of a mountain?*  No and No, so why in the hell does Sakura's jump have to be anywhere near mountain-sized?  this is the exact thing I talk about over and over, you literally don't care about truth, you're simply motivated by your personal bias to be right which is why I have to waste so much time correcting your disingenuous attempts at straw manning or trying to make me defend a point that my arguments never imply.  For the last time, don't waste my time with this stuff. 

 And the bolded, sure one builds up more force when they fall, but that doesn't mean they'd build up enough force to significantly affect the power of their impacts and I give you examples like juubito falling from


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