# Hashirama Senju vs Akatsuki (read OP)



## StarWanderer (Jan 8, 2015)

Hashirama Senju vs Akatsuki: prime Orochimaru (no ET), prime Obito (one MS), 6 Paths of Pain, Konan, healthy Itachu Uchiha, Deidara, Kisame, Hidan, Sasori, Kakuzu.

*Restrictions:* Kotoamatsukami.

*Battlefield:* Madara vs Shinobi Alliance.

*Starting distance:* 500 meters.

Morals on for Akatsuki, morals off for Hashirama. 

*Hashirama is in his prime. *

Hashirama is in Sage Mode from the start.

Who wins?


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## Arles Celes (Jan 8, 2015)

Restrict Shinsenju as it will kill all apart from Obito right away.

Though even mokujin might be too much but perhaps Chou Shinra Tensei can damage it enough...

Put Rinnegan Obito with Neo Pain and Gedo Mazou and make Nagato healthy(including his legs). Then it might be an actual match.


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## BurningVegeta (Jan 8, 2015)

Obito solos surprise Kamui.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 8, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Restrict Shinsenju as it will kill all apart from Obito right away.
> 
> Though even mokujin might be too much but perhaps Chou Shinra Tensei can damage it enough...
> 
> Put Rinnegan Obito with Neo Pain and Gedo Mazou and make Nagato healthy(including his legs). Then it might be an actual match.



City level ST, Mountain level CT and Deidaras explosions. I think its balanced.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 8, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Obito solos surprise Kamui.



LOL no, Obito cant solo Hashirama.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> City level ST, Mountain level CT and Deidaras explosions. I think its balanced.



City level ST cannot be spammed as we saw, mountain level CT was destroyed by a FRS+ Bijuudama+ Yasaka Magatama(and Hashi got more firepower than that) and Deidara's explosions even CS 2 Sasuke could survive(only C3 which can be intercepted and was blocked by Gaara's sand and suicidal C0 are worth shit).


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## Mercurial (Jan 8, 2015)

Hashirama neg diffs all the Akatsuki, all them together still aren't able to put a dangerous offense or to defend from his Mokuton, only problem is Obito, but Mokuton Bunshin and continuous Mokuton spam should maybe suffice; without knowledge, though, I'm not sure.


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## Bonly (Jan 8, 2015)

The Akatsuki loses. The only one who can really do anything is Obito thanks to being able to use Kamui to get away from some attacks while everyone else is pretty fucked and I don't see Obito soloing Hashi


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## StarWanderer (Jan 8, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Hashirama neg diffs all the Akatsuki, all them together still aren't able to put a dangerous offense or to defend from his Mokuton, only problem is Obito, but Mokuton Bunshin and continuous Mokuton spam should maybe suffice; without knowledge, though, I'm not sure.



Also Hashirama is faster than Obito.

It seems i created unbalanced battle. Sorry.


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## Rocky (Jan 8, 2015)

If there's no knowledge on Obito's abilities, he takes Hashirama by surprise with the rest of the Akatsuki as a distraction.


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## BurningVegeta (Jan 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> LOL no, Obito cant solo Hashirama.


I'm sorry can Hashirama survive Kamui+Mokuton decapitation?


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## Deer Lord (Jan 8, 2015)

I can see C4 being a game changer if akatsuki base their strat on landing it.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 8, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> I'm sorry can Hashirama survive Kamui+Mokuton decapitation?



I am sorry is Obito fast enough to do that? Because Hashirama is in Madara's speed class, who had been shown to be much faster than V2 War Arc Raikage and Sage Mode Naruto. I am sorry can Hashirama use his own mokuton against him? Because he is a much better mokuton user. I am sorry can he hurt Sage Mode Hashirama with anything besides Kamui? Because Madara, with Hashirama's Sage Mode, was durable enough to withstand Bijuu onslaught.

Obito cant defeat Hashirama alone.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Also Hashirama is faster than Obito.


Hashirama isn't faster than Obito. But his abilities perfectly counter Obito's. Hell with Flower World Obito will likely inhale the pollen before he can phase...then its night night.



StarWanderer said:


> I am sorry is Obito fast enough to do that? Because Hashirama is in Madara's speed class, who had been shown to be much faster than V2 War Arc Raikage and Sage Mode Naruto. I am sorry can Hashirama use his own mokuton against him? Because he is a much better mokuton user. I am sorry can he hurt Sage Mode Hashirama with anything besides Kamui? Because Madara, with Hashirama's Sage Mode, was durable enough to withstand Bijuu onslaught.
> 
> Obito cant defeat Hashirama alone.


Wait a second...Madara's speed ISN'T on V2 A's level at ALL. Hell he barely reacted to _initial speed_ A. How the hell can you claim Madara and Hashirama are faster than A or Minato with a straight face is surprising since neither are known for their speed.


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## ARGUS (Jan 8, 2015)

Hashirama still wins this 

 - One Chojo Kobetsu eradicates everyone in the battlefield bar Obito, heck even a SM mokujin pulverises them to oblivion when they have no chance at bypassing it and the structure being able to match PS, means that it shits on them 

 - Obito then gets ganng banged by mulitple clones, as Flower Tree World bypasses his 5min kamui limit and puts him to sleep


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 8, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Obito solos surprise Kamui.



 Enhanced sensing capabilities brah. If KCM Naruto can react somewhat to Rinnegan Obito, there's no way in hell MS Obito is somehow going to backstab Hashirama.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> *Starting distance:* 500 meters.
> 
> morals off for Hashirama.
> 
> ...


Hashirama destroys. He can set up all his moves some which can be used at the same time and wreck akatsuki with top tier jutsu they won't survive long against.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Wait a second...Madara's speed ISN'T on V2 A's level at ALL. Hell he barely reacted to _initial speed_ A. How the hell can you claim Madara and Hashirama are faster than A or Minato with a straight face is surprising since neither are known for their speed.


You come to those kind of conclusion when you mix hate/jealously for a character with shit tier scaling and interpretation. 

You know when you think non juubi jin madara can beat people like A, bee(no bijuu mode), gai and third raikage etc in taijutsu brawls there is a problem.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 9, 2015)

Hashirama cleans the battlefield with Shinsuusenju.

Obito is the lone survivor. Hashirama overwhelms him with Wood Clones, uses the numbers to his advantage so he can figure out how Kamui works, and then he attacks Obito from both planes to corner him for the finishing move. Or Hashirama can simply outlast Obito with his monstrous stamina, which Obito himself is genetically augmented to benefit from.


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## Empathy (Jan 9, 2015)

_Shin Suusenju_ overwhelms all of them, including Obito.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

> Wait a second...Madara's speed ISN'T on V2 A's level at ALL. Hell he barely reacted to initial speed A. How the hell can you claim Madara and Hashirama are faster than A or Minato with a straight face is surprising since neither are known for their speed.



Madara's speed is on V2 level, because he, while being in a weaker Edo state, blocked V2 punch point blank. And because his mokuton clones were fast enough to tag V2 Raikage. 



> Hashirama isn't faster than Obito. But his abilities perfectly counter Obito's. Hell with Flower World Obito will likely inhale the pollen before he can phase...then its night night.



Since he is in the same speed class as Madara, he probably is.


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## Veracity (Jan 9, 2015)

Hashirama is easily faster then Obito . And starting in sage mode gives him the ability to avoid even a blindsided Kamui attempt. Blind Madara using pure sage sensing was able to dodge an FTG slash which is vastly faster then obito.


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## trance (Jan 9, 2015)

If Hashirama starts in Sage Mode, he uses "Shinsusenju" and there's really nothing the Akatsuki can do about it.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Hashirama is easily faster then Obito . And starting in sage mode gives him the ability to avoid even a blindsided Kamui attempt. Blind Madara using pure sage sensing was able to dodge an FTG slash which is vastly faster then obito.



I dont count that, because Madara was with Hashirama's Sage Mode. But he had impressive accomplishment against Raikage when he was Edo and against Sage Mode Naruto after re ressurrected.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara's speed is on V2 level, because he, while being in a weaker Edo state, blocked V2 punch point blank. And because his mokuton clones were fast enough to tag V2 Raikage.


This is Version 1 A. If it was Version 2, his hair would be completely spikey and he would say it. And again, he barely blocked that level of speed.

A was  in Version 1 throughout that, and the only way the Madara clones tagged him was when he was distracted.

This is A's Maximum power or Version 2 state. As is this and this.

Notice ANY visual differences? If you can't, you're being intellectually dishonest. Not only that, if Madara _did_ block A's maximum speed, _A would have commented on it._


> Since he is in the same speed class as Madara, he probably is.


No, he isn't. Neither Hashirama or Madara were speedsters. Tobirama was faster than both of them. To defeat A's speed you need Hiraishin or being empowered by Kurama.



Likes boss said:


> Hashirama is easily faster then Obito . And starting in sage mode gives him the ability to avoid even a blindsided Kamui attempt. Blind Madara using pure sage sensing was able to dodge an FTG slash which is vastly faster then obito.


Hashirama isn't faster at all. Madara had the Rinnegan then, and unlike Hashirama, he was a sensor without Sage Mode which meant his Sensing abilities were enhanced.



StarWanderer said:


> I dont count that, because Madara was with Hashirama's Sage Mode. But he had impressive accomplishment against Raikage when he was Edo and against Sage Mode Naruto after re ressurrected.


He had no impressive accomplishment against A in terms of speed. He blocked a single punch from V1 A, and was outright blitzed by lightened A. And...Sage Mode Naruto blocked Madara's blitz and reacted to him.


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## Trojan (Jan 9, 2015)

Obito solos.

Hashirama cannot touch him with anything, and can't save himself of getting warped.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Obito solos.
> 
> Hashirama cannot touch him with anything, and can't save himself of getting warped.


Obito is still vulnerable to Flower World, Hussain.


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## Trojan (Jan 9, 2015)

Obito shits on that with his Juubi's size fire jutsu. Madara defeated that jutsu with even weaker fire jutsu.
I don't see how does it stand a chance here honestly.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 9, 2015)

I imagine Kakuzu flipping out and telling everyone to run - no, it's too late! as their base and the 200 meters in an given direction turns into a forest that lulls them to sleep and is crushes and impales them.


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## Trojan (Jan 9, 2015)

Kakuzu survived by himself without even his hearts. 
Also, why wouldn't Kakuzu's wind and fire attacks be able to destroy those woods exactly? 

Or why Can't Deidara attack from the sky with his birds?
Or Nagato use ST?

Actually Nagato can even create a Hashirama clone with the same exact abilities as he did to Gai's team.


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## tkpirate (Jan 9, 2015)

yeah,SM Hashirama solos.even base Hashirama probably will win with high difficulty.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Kakuzu survived by himself without even his hearts.
> Also, why wouldn't Kakuzu's wind and fire attacks be able to destroy those woods exactly?
> 
> Or why Can't Deidara attack from the sky with his birds?
> ...



0.  Kakuzu survived, probably for the same reason Onoki survived against Madara.

1. It took a grip of suiton specialists to stop the weakest katon Madara used in the manga, Kakashi's single suigenheki was insufficient to stop it, but did something.

2.  Hashirama can grow a forest 200 meters away, and 200 meters tall, in a manner than actively tentacle rapes in the blink of an eye, that attacks in continuous waves as long as he wills it.

3.  That's a sealing technique used in conjunction with the barrier that probably requires prep. 

4.  Everyone who doesn't instantly die will fall asleep and drop their defences that let them survive a bit.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

> This is Version 1 A. If it was Version 2, his hair would be completely spikey and he would say it. And again, he barely blocked that level of speed.
> 
> A was in Version 1 throughout that, and the only way the Madara clones tagged him was when he was distracted.
> 
> ...



Notice how his hair was up? Thats an indicator of V2. Ei was in his full speed. he even commented Madara reacting to him and needed Oonoki to make him even faster. And later it was shown that even Madara's mokuton clones were fast enough to tag V2 Raikage.



> No, he isn't. Neither Hashirama or Madara were speedsters. Tobirama was faster than both of them. To defeat A's speed you need Hiraishin or being empowered by Kurama.



Wrong. They were both speedsters according to feats. 

And Tobirama is faster and has better reflexes than Ei. He put a FTG formula on Juubito - did something KCM Minato, for example, couldnt do. 




> Hashirama isn't faster at all. Madara had the Rinnegan then, and unlike Hashirama, he was a sensor without Sage Mode which meant his Sensing abilities were enhanced.



Rinnegan has nothing to do with speed, reflexes and perception.



> He had no impressive accomplishment against A in terms of speed. He blocked a single punch from V1 A, and was outright blitzed by lightened A. And...Sage Mode Naruto blocked Madara's blitz and reacted to him.



A single punch from V2 Ei. Hair was up - V2. And if he was full power against Sasuke, there is no reason he wont be with his full power against Madara. And if he was faster, he could not need Oonoki to make him lighter (thus faster).



> Obito solos.
> 
> Hashirama cannot touch him with anything, and can't save himself of getting warped.



1. Hashirama is arguebly faster.

2. Hashirama can trick him with his undetectable clones.

3. Hashirama is a sensory type. His sensory abilities are even better with his Sage Mode.

4. Flower Tree World, rain of Great Gates that are fast enough to immobilise Edo Madara, a shinobi in prime Raikage's speed class, much bigger chakra reserve.

Obito alone cant defeat Hashirama. 



> Obito shits on that with his Juubi's size fire jutsu. Madara defeated that jutsu with even weaker fire jutsu.
> I don't see how does it stand a chance here honestly.



Polen was still there and Kage woke up because of Oonoki's will. Also, not all of Flower Tree World was destroyed - only a little part of it, as i remember.


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## Trojan (Jan 9, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> 0.  Kakuzu survived, probably for the same reason Onoki survived against Madara.
> 
> 1. It took a grip of suiton specialists to stop the weakest katon Madara used in the manga, Kakashi's single suigenheki was insufficient to stop it, but did something.
> 
> ...



- Not really. The DB3 stated that Kakuzu did escape (though barely). He did not have his hearts jutsu, so he gets credits for that as well. 

- Yeah, but those are fodders, not the Akatsuki who were defeating the Kages. 
as for Kakashi, you said it yourself, he failed. 

- I am honestly do not know from where you came with those numbers. Either way, we have seen how the wind attacks work with those woods.

Kakuzu himself has a great wind attacks...


which as you can see in the page, it can destroy a huge area..

Also, the Akatsuki do not really need to destroy every last bit of it by the way. Just like how Hiruzen destroyed only the wood that was around him, and that was enough. Onoki destroyed the wood around them and that was enough as well. The other roots that are far away are irrelevant, just like how the Gokage were fighting just fine even though the area was full with those roots. 

- a 500 m is more than good enough, especially with the help of the others. 
(Not as if I believe that Hashirama can survive against Obito's Kamui to begin with, but just for the sake of the argument)

- Yeah, that is assuming they will only stand there and not do anything about the flower when they do know what it does.  
what I see from this point of yours is you want to hit them with massive PIS, and CIS to make them fall assuming they will only remain in their places doing nothing.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - Not really. The DB3 stated that Kakuzu did escape (though barely). He did not have his hearts jutsu, so get credits for that as well.
> 
> - Yeah, but those are fodders, not the Akatsuki who were defeating the Kages.
> as for Kakashi, you said it yourself, he failed.
> ...



Didnt reply to me because you cant counter my post? I see...


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## Trojan (Jan 9, 2015)

> =StarWanderer;52644260]
> 1. Hashirama is arguebly faster.


Not even close. 


> 2. Hashirama can trick him with his undetectable clones.


Obito can see them with his sharingan. 



> 3. Hashirama is a sensory type. His sensory abilities are even better with his Sage Mode.


Yet he has absolutly no feats. 



> 4. Flower Tree World, rain of Great Gates that are fast enough to immobilise Edo Madara, a shinobi in prime Raikage's speed class, much bigger chakra reserve.


You are still making stuff up as Madara is not even close to A's speed. Not to mention His gates are useless as Obito will go through them. 




> Obito alone cant defeat Hashirama.


Yes. Actually Hashirama has no hope of defeating Obito as he has absolutly nothing to hit him with. 


> Polen was still there and Kage woke up because of Oonoki's will. Also, not all of Flower Tree World was destroyed - only a little part of it, as i remember.


The flowers were completely destroyed, and what remained of the roots are useless and harmless. So, they can't benefit him here.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 9, 2015)

If Kakuzu escaped it's because Hashirama wasn't trying to pursue or kill him.  Hashirama is a sensor with incredible range, and an instant sage mode to enhance both.
I've actually wondered what abilities Kakuzu had at the time, that made his superiors think he could kill Hashirama, because he didn't get all the stuff that makes him strong now back then.  My theory was that his original techniques were lost with the death of his original heart, similar to how he needs his current hearts to use his current jutsu.

A grip.  

Hashirama's mokuton is superior to normal wood.  Reason 1 being it's infused with chakra.  It probably won't get cut down.  Zokkaku cutting down dead trees doesn't convince me it's as strong as the barrage of super odama rasengans it took Naruto to stop a casual copy of Hashirama's wood go 'attaway attack.

I checked the op, and no knowledge was stated.  I took that to mean manga knowledge.  Can you tell me why anyone would have knowledge on the pollen, when only Tsunade of the Gokage had knowledge of her grandfather's flowers?


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

> Not even close.



Why? Edo Madara blocked punch from V2 Raikage Ei, his mokuton clones were fast enough to tag V2 Raikage Ei and he dodged Gaara's sand that was fast enough to react to V2 Raikage once.

Hashirama was in the same speed class as Madara. Not only Edo Hashirama, reanimated not with full power and weakened by his own clones (at least 1 clone, to which i can give a scan from Manga), reacted to Edo Madara with techniques and in H2H combat, but he also immobilised him twice. Without Sage Mode.



> Obito can see them with his sharingan.



A whole clan of sharingan users couldnt, except Madara, and you think Obito can? And by the way, if he distributes between clones and himself the same amount of chakra?



> Yet he has absolutly no feats.



Well, Sage Mode by canon gives sensor abilities, but i agree that, as a sensor, Hashirama has no impressive feats whatsoever.



> You are still making stuff up as Madara is not even close to A's speed. Not to mention His gates are useless as Obito will go through them.



Madara blocked V2 Ei's punch and his mokuton clones were fast enough to tag V2 Ei. And that was Edo Madara - the one who does not have his full potential, as he had when was alive EMS Madara.

He can spam them for more than 5 minutes. 



> Yes. Actually Hashirama has no hope of defeating Obito as he has absolutly nothing to hit him with.



Polen, non-stop mokuton attacks, undetectable clones and speed. He can hit Obito.



> The flowers were completely destroyed, and what remained of the roots are useless and harmless. So, they can't benefit him here.



And i highly doubt Hashirama will give him an opportunity to use Katon.


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## Trojan (Jan 9, 2015)

> [=The Pirate on Wheels;52644310]If Kakuzu escaped it's because Hashirama wasn't trying to pursue or kill him.


Hashirama did not show mercy to even his friend, and killed him. Why would he do that to Kakuzu who was trying to assassinate him? 


> Hashirama* is a sensor with incredible range,*  and an instant sage mode to enhance both.


I would love a scan for this one, please. 


> I've actually wondered what abilities Kakuzu had at the time, that made his superiors think he could kill Hashirama, because he didn't get all the stuff that makes him strong now back then.  My theory was that his original techniques were lost with the death of his original heart, similar to how he needs his current hearts to use his current jutsu.



Death of his original heart? He did not die back then. Also, I don't think that how it works honestly. Because unless his hands are sealed like Oro, we haven't heard of any such thing. 


> A grip.


I do remember this scan, but we are not talking about fodders here. Mei for example was able to defeat Madara's Fire jutsus easily. I don't see why would you think the Akatsuki are not in her level honestly...


> Hashirama's mokuton is superior to normal wood.  Reason 1 being it's infused with chakra.  It probably won't get cut down.  Zokkaku cutting down dead trees doesn't convince me it's as strong as the barrage of super odama rasengans it took Naruto to stop a casual copy of Hashirama's wood go 'attaway attack.


The Tree is also superior to Hashirama, and yet it was cut down by some normal swords, Tobirama's Water jutsu, and Sasuke's Susanoo's sword. Naruto used all those Rassengans because of the size of the jutsu. However, here the Akatsuki's jutsu have greater range than Naruto's Odoma's Rassengan, no? 



> I checked the op, and no knowledge was stated.  I took that to mean manga knowledge.  Can you tell me why anyone would have knowledge on the pollen, when only Tsunade of the Gokage had knowledge of her grandfather's flowers?


Yes, because Zetsu is one of them, and he was there from Kaguya's time, and was collecting the info all those years, I don't see why wouldn't he know about it. 
And they have Kakuzu as well who fought Hashirama personally. 



> [=StarWanderer;52644313]Why? Edo Madara blocked punch from V2 Raikage Ei, his mokuton clones were fast enough to tag V2 Raikage Ei and he dodged Gaara's sand that was fast enough to react to V2 Raikage once.


- That does not mean he is faster.
- Yeah, when A was not moving and talking to Tsunade. 


> Hashirama was in the same speed class as Madara. Not only Edo Hashirama, reanimated not with full power and weakened by his own clones (at least 1 clone, to which i can give a scan from Manga), reacted to Edo Madara with techniques and in H2H combat, but he also immobilised him twice. Without Sage Mode.


Yeah, the clones that barely have any chakra as Madara mentioned. Not to mention Hashirama was stabbed by 6 of Madara's black rods. 



> A whole clan of sharingan users couldnt, except Madara, and you think Obito can? And by the way, if he distributes between clones and himself the same amount of chakra?


I don't remember Hashirama fighting anyone but Madara. 
-Not to mention Obito has Hashirama's cells, so he would be able to tell. Just like Oro. 
- What about? 


> Well, Sage Mode by canon gives sensor abilities, but i agree that, as a sensor, Hashirama has no impressive feats whatsoever.


Good, so we don't have to go there. 



> Madara blocked V2 Ei's punch and his mokuton clones were fast enough to tag Ei. And that was Edo Madara - the one who does not have his full potential, as he had when was alive EMS Madara.


Already explained above. Not to mention that does not prove anything anyway. Even BM Naruto, and Gated Gai were not able to hit Obito. Hell, even JJ SM Madara failed to take the Rinnegan from Obito, and you're telling me Hashirama can?  



> He can spam them for more than 5 minutes.



Obito can use Kamui as much as he can unless it's a non-stop attack. Hashirama has no such thing. He does not even know what Kamui is, so how would he know about the 5 minutes anyway? 


> Polen, non-stop mokuton attacks, undetectable clones and speed. he can hit Obito.


I don't remember Hashirama fighting in such way, you're still making things up. 
and as I said, Hashi does not even know about Kamui or its weakness.  


> And i highly doubt Hashirama will give him an opportunity to use Katon.


pffff, and what can he do about it? It's not like if takes forever for obito to use it.
Especially if he's fighting 10 at the same time, how would he be able to pay attention to all of them at the same time?


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

> - That does not mean he is faster.
> - Yeah, when A was not moving and talking to Tsunade.



1. He blocked it with his hands point blank. And he wasnt as fast as he was when he was alive. Thats why i think that EMS Madara is faster than V2 Ei.
2. Ei blocked clones Susanoo punch with his hand while being in V2 Raiton armor. And i have a quastion for you - why he blocked it and spent chakra on blocking it when he could just dodge it, because he is so fast? Maybe because clones were that fast to be capable of tagging V2 Raikage?



> Yeah, the clones that barely have any chakra as Madara mentioned. Not to mention Hashirama was stabbed by 6 of Madara's black rods.



But still, they had Hashirama's chakra. That means Hashirama was weaker when he fought Madara. 

And the fact Madara stabbed him was off panel. We dont know how he managed to do that. But we can see in manga that Hashirama was able to react to Edo Madara and dodge him.

Plus, Hashirama had no knowledge on Rinnegans abilities.

And Hashirama also managed to immobilise Edo Madara twice.



> I don't remember Hashirama fighting anyone but Madara.
> -Not to mention Obito has Hashirama's cells, so he would be able to tell. Just like Oro.
> - What about?



Hashirama fought a lot in that Era. He has tons of experience against sharingan. And i dont think that nobody from Uchiha saw their fights. Plus, there is no reason for Madara to lie about that.

Orochimaru sensed Yamato's clones, am i right? Yamato, as a mokuton user, is not even close to Hashirama.



> Already explained above. Not to mention that does not prove anything anyway. Even BM Naruto, and Gated Gai were not able to hit Obito. Hell, even JJ SM Madara failed to take the Rinnegan from Obito, and you're telling me Hashirama can?



Guy wasnt in his most powerfull Gates. And Hashirama is fast enough to attack him non-stop in close combat. Also, even base Guy was capable of fighting Obito one-on-one and dodge his Kamui. 

Failed, due to many circumstances. Dont know why you even mentioned that.



> Obito can use Kamui as much as he can unless it's a non-stop attack. Hashirama has no such thing. He does not even know what Kamui is, so how would he know about the 5 minutes anyway?



Kamui needs chakra, just like every other ninjutsu. But Hashirama's chakra reserves are much higher, since he can fight for the whole day.

And if Minato could analise him, than Hashirama for sure can do the same. 



> I don't remember Hashirama fighting in such way, you're still making things up.
> and as I said, Hashi does not even know about Kamui or its weakness.



We know he can use clones, we know he can use polen, we know he can use gates. He also can change the battlefield itself. And he is very fast.


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## Trojan (Jan 9, 2015)

> =StarWanderer;52644419]1. He blocked it with his hands point blank. And he wasnt as fast as he was when he was alive. Thats why i think that EMS Madara is faster than V2 Ei.
> 2. Ei blocked clones Susanoo punch with his hand while being in V2 Raiton armor. And i have a quastion for you - why he blocked it and spent chakra on blocking it when he could just dodge it, because he is so fast? Maybe because clones were that fast to be capable of tagging V2 Raikage?


1- if he was faster he would have dodge it. Plain simple. Just like how Naruto was slower than A even though he blocked his punches.  And the other thing is only you bullshiting. 

2- Again, he was fighting 5 of them, and talking to Tsunade. The Gokage were trying to destroy them.
The clone couldn't do anything to A, until when he stopped to talk to Tsunade. 


> But still, they had Hashirama's chakra. That means Hashirama was weaker when he fought Madara.
> 
> And the fact Madara stabbed him was off panel. We dont know how he managed to do that. But we can see in manga that Hashirama was able to react to Edo Madara and dodge him.
> 
> ...



- No, as the clones disappeared afterward. He is also an ET, so his chakra get regenerated. 
- Off-panel or not, it happened, and it means that Hashi couldn't dodge him. 
- Madara was only waiting for the time to strike. 


> Hashirama fought a lot in that Era. He has tons of experience against sharingan. And i dont think that nobody from Uchiha saw their fights. Plus, there is no reason for Madara to lie about that.
> 
> Orochimaru sensed Yamato's clones, am i right? Yamato, as a mokuton user, is not even close to Hashirama.


- Madara did not lie, as he was the only one from the uchiha who fights Hashirama. The others, who are not from the uchiha do not have sharingan, and as such can't see it.

- I am talking about Zetsus. 
those woods



> Guy wasnt in his most powerfull Gates. And Hashirama is fast enough to attack him non-stop in close combat. Also, even base Guy was capable of fighting Obito one-on-one and dodge his Kamui.
> 
> 
> Failed, due to many circumstances. Dont know why you even mentioned that.


Gai does not need to be in any gates to be faster than Hashirama. 
base Gai is way beyond Hashirama in speed to begin with. 

which circumstances? He failed flat out to take the Rinnegan because of Kamui. Both Gai and B
are several tiers above Hashirama in term of close combat, and yet all of them with BM Naruto and Kakashi's help failed to hit Obito, except with Kamui's help. And you think Hashirama stands a chance in this regard? lol 


> Kamui needs chakra, just like every other ninjutsu. But Hashirama's chakra reserves are much higher, since he can fight for the whole day.
> 
> And if Minato could analise him, than Hashirama for sure can do the same.


- pfff, Obito was fighting for the whole day as well, what's your point? 
- absolutly BS.  


> We know he can use clones, we know he can use polen, we know he can use gates. He also can change the battlefield itself. And he is very fast.


and we know he does not fight like that, and we know Obito can go through all of that. Touch Hashirama 1 touch, and he is done for.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jan 9, 2015)

With SM restricted and Akatsuki having knowledge advantage I can see Akatsuki winning. Obito warping Itachi/Deva/Deidara's nukes from Kamuiland into Hashirama's face should be lethal enough. Sage Mode Hashirama is too much. Especially with this distance.


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## Trojan (Jan 9, 2015)

SM Hashirama is exactly the same more or less. lol
He can preform all of his jutsus even in bace...


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## Alex Payne (Jan 9, 2015)

If by "same more or less" you mean gaining sensing, all around physical boosts, ninjutsu/genjutsu boosts and ability to use *Senpō*: Myōjinmon and *Senpō*: Mokuton: Shin Sūsenju... Your views on things are interesting.


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## Trojan (Jan 9, 2015)

He does not gain any sensing abilities. He has never shown such thing. Also, the amount of SM chakra Hashirama can gain is rather small/disappointing according to Madara at least.
those woods
that's probably why he couldn't effect Obito at all, unlike the Kid with his rassengan.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> He does not gain any sensing abilities. He has never shown such thing. Also, the amount of SM chakra Hashirama can gain is rather small/disappointing according to Madara at least.
> those woods
> that's probably why he couldn't effect Obito at all, unlike the Kid with his rassengan.



Do not all SM users gain sensor powers though? Hashi's performance with SM was just quite short and Kishi did not expand much on it except that he needed it to use Shinsenju.

As for Madara being unimpressed with the amount of SM that Hashi got it shouldn't be surprising given that the guy got crazy chakra reserves himself. That said if Sasuke could affect Juubito with just CS then I doubt that Hashi's SM, even if for some reason weaker than Frog SM, is below a mere CS.

Kishi clearly didn't know what to do with Hashi in this war besides keeping Madara busy and not stealing anyone else thunder in the fight with Juubito. After Madara got RT'd the best Kishi could do with him was to use him to hype Madara both by making Madara own him AND stealing his power. 

It is kinda ironic how the most hyped hokage(besides Prime Hiruzen) got so little chance to shine in this war with most of his performance being off panel(even his fight with Kuramaless Madara was off panel LOL).

Maybe Kishi though that his fighting style is too boring when compared to Minato and Tobirama or at least how he is poor as a support for Naruto and Sasuke(the "main stars")?

Still, Hiruzen being owned by brainless Juubito and needing like a dozen chapters to regen was like a kick in the balls from Kishi to his fans though...

All the hokages were underused as when they arrived there were no opponents good for them to fight one on one. A shame that Kishi did not keep Nagato or Kabuto around for them to have such.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> He does not gain any sensing abilities.


 Every perfect user of SM gains sensing. 





Hussain said:


> He has never shown such thing.


 You really want to go that way? Guess who else didn't show anything at all when using Sage Mode? 





Hussain said:


> Also, the amount of SM chakra Hashirama can gain is rather small/disappointing according to Madara at least.
> those woods
> that's probably why he couldn't effect Obito at all, unlike the Kid with his rassengan.


 Madara's comment was about Senjutsu as a whole. He would say the same about stolen Senjutsu from Naruto or Kabuto. He doesn't say anything about volume and he doesn't even mention Hashirama's name when describing his new powers.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 9, 2015)

Hashi spent the entire fight telling Madara he didn't want to fight and kill him, and Madara spent most of it telling Hashirama to fight seriously.  It wasn't until he saw no way to convince Madara to step down, and Madara swore he'd spend forever trying to crush their dreams and village they built, that he finally decided to stop holding back.  Hashirama hated fighting and killing.  Random assassin fleeing in terror probably is enough for Hashi to let him go.

Incredible range of jutsu.  He made the forest around Konoha, and his battles redrew maps.  That was poor wording, and I never meant to imply he had scans of him sensing.  I don't know of any scans of him sensing, outside of telling Tobirama he's better than him at sensing.  Oh, I suppose he might have felt Madara when he came back.  I don't feel like looking.

I know what sage mode sensing does, from other sages, and Hashi is definitely a perfect sage, and a god of shinobi that is a sensor, who Madara said was on another level in all his techniques.  That's sufficient for me personally.

God tree sucks.  Do you really think Yamato's mokuton, which could catch a bunch of giant animals, and restrain a giant squid, couldn't stop a normal generic sword?

Do you think that Hashirama's base mokuton, which caught Madara's perfect Susano blade swings, and could catch a bijuudama, and could protect him from terraforming explosions would get chopped by a normal sword?  

2 dudes have knowledge.  Most of them have a legend.  I don't know if people get group meeting time before the fight to share knowledge.  Kakuzu knows, which is why he knows he's screwed.

Kakuzu stated his original heart stopped beating, but he lived on because of the other hearts he took.  I told you it's my personal theory and interpretation of what happened to all his jutsu.  Kakuzu clearly lost domu, his suitons, and such when he lost his hearts.  You're free to speculate otherwise.  

Mei was the Mizukage, and able to negate Madara's katons by exploiting a type advantage that allows a weaker jutsu to defeat a stronger jutsu.  There is no type advantage against Mokuton.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

> 1- if he was faster he would have dodge it. Plain simple. Just like how Naruto was slower than A even though he blocked his punches. And the other thing is only you bullshiting.
> 
> 2- Again, he was fighting 5 of them, and talking to Tsunade. The Gokage were trying to destroy them.
> The clone couldn't do anything to A, until when he stopped to talk to Tsunade.



1. He was in a free fall and, as i know, he cant fly. Thats why he couldnt dodge it. The same as why he couldnt dodge Gaara's sand attack when he became alive thanks to RT. Because he was in a free fall. But the fatc is - he reacted to V2 Raikage Ei and blocked his punch with his hands.

2. Yeah - whats the sense to block a punch from 1 clone when there are 5 of them and when you spend a lot of chakra on that? Why should he block it when he is so fast? Maybe he simply wasnt fast enough?



> - No, as the clones disappeared afterward. He is also an ET, so his chakra get regenerated.
> - Off-panel or not, it happened, and it means that Hashi couldn't dodge him.
> - Madara was only waiting for the time to strike.



At least 1 clone was active at the moment of the fight between Madara and Hashirama. So Hashirama was not in his full power. Am i need to show you a scan from Manga? or will you re-read it by yourself?
Tobirama commented that "even if you take clones back, you wont be powerfull enough" when he had confrontation with Juubito. And, as we know, Edo's have their restrictions and they are not as powerfull as those who are alive. 
Of-panel, so we dont know how he did it. He could use Deva Path, for example. Or something like that.
It would have been betetr for him to now be in Gates, or Wood Dragon, because than, ther is a risk for him to be seal, dont you think?



> - Madara did not lie, as he was the only one from the uchiha who fights Hashirama. The others, who are not from the uchiha do not have sharingan, and as such can't see it.
> 
> - I am talking about Zetsus.
> disagrees



Orochimaru can sense them, because he had tons of experience with them, and because almost all his body consists of them. Furthermore, Obito is not Orochimaru.

In a war era, where tons of people were killed, only Madara and Izuna had sharingan? And by the way, why Izuna couldnt see them, according to Madara? And the rest of Uchiha clan?

And how can you comment the fact that Madara, a sensory type, couldnt sense Hashirama in the end of their battle? 



> Gai does not need to be in any gates to be faster than Hashirama.
> base Gai is way beyond Hashirama in speed to begin with.
> 
> which circumstances? He failed flat out to take the Rinnegan because of Kamui. Both Gai and B
> are several tiers above Hashirama in term of close combat, and yet all of them with BM Naruto and Kakashi's help failed to hit Obito, except with Kamui's help. And you think Hashirama stands a chance in this regard? lol



Does not need any gates to be faster than Hashirama? Way beyond Hashirama in speed? Prove that.

Prove that B is faster than Hashirama. The fact Hashirama is in the same speed class as Madara (a shinobi in V2 Raikage speed class) even without Sage Mode makes your statements wrong, but it will be interesting for me to read your explanation.

He failed when Obito absorbed tailes chakra and a part of Hashirama's Sage chakra, which also allowed him to dodge his Gudoudama's.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 1- if he was faster he would have dodge it. Plain simple. Just like how Naruto was slower than A even though he blocked his punches.  And the other thing is only you bullshiting.
> 
> 2- Again, he was fighting 5 of them, and talking to Tsunade. The Gokage were trying to destroy them.
> The clone couldn't do anything to A, until when he stopped to talk to Tsunade.
> ...



The clone Tsunade punched, as i remember, was also in a free fall. And it happened off-panel. There were 5 of them and Madara used only 1 clone to fool them. No surprise clone got taged.


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## The World (Jan 9, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hashi spent the entire fight telling Madara he didn't want to fight and kill him, and Madara spent most of it telling Hashirama to fight seriously.  It wasn't until he saw no way to convince Madara to step down, and Madara swore he'd spend forever trying to crush their dreams and village they built, that he finally decided to stop holding back.  Hashirama hated fighting and killing.  Random assassin fleeing in terror probably is enough for Hashi to let him go.
> 
> Incredible range of jutsu.  He made the forest around Konoha, and his battles redrew maps.  That was poor wording, and I never meant to imply he had scans of him sensing.  I don't know of any scans of him sensing, outside of telling Tobirama he's better than him at sensing.  Oh, I suppose he might have felt Madara when he came back.  I don't feel like looking.
> 
> ...



wuuut he lost to Hashi before he even had Jiongu


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 9, 2015)

Uhh, yeah.  See, Kakuzu didn't have his silly string jutsu when he fought Hashi.  But for some reason, his village thought he could kill the god of shinobi, so he was presumably awesome.  So I've always wondered what his original powers and jutsu were, and what happened to that skillset that could survive Hashirama to make him not use it anymore.


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## Trojan (Jan 9, 2015)

Why did I threw myself into this? 



> =Arles Celes;52644582]Do not all SM users gain sensor powers though? Hashi's performance with SM was just quite short and Kishi did not expand much on it except that he needed it to use Shinsenju.


Jiraiya did not, and he was using the Barrier for sensing instead. the point is, we have never seen such thing from Hashirama, much less making him with a great sensing abilities. 



> As for Madara being unimpressed with the amount of SM that Hashi got it shouldn't be surprising given that the guy got crazy chakra reserves himself. That said if Sasuke could affect Juubito with just CS then I doubt that Hashi's SM, even if for some reason weaker than Frog SM, is below a mere CS.


If he got the same amount of chakra as himself, that wouldn't be disappointed though. As for Sasuke, it's not really him. It's the Kid's SM that played that role. 



> Kishi clearly didn't know what to do with Hashi in this war besides keeping Madara busy and not stealing anyone else thunder in the fight with Juubito. After Madara got RT'd the best Kishi could do with him was to use him to hype Madara both by making Madara own him AND stealing his power.



Well, he did not know what to do with a lot of characters though. 


> It is kinda ironic how the most hyped hokage(besides Prime Hiruzen) got so little chance to shine in this war with most of his performance being off panel(even his fight with Kuramaless Madara was off panel LOL).


Yeah, he was way too underwhelming in the war. lol



> Maybe Kishi though that his fighting style is too boring when compared to Minato and Tobirama or at least how he is poor as a support for Naruto and Sasuke(the "main stars")?


I doubt that it's about boredom. I honestly can't think of away to how he was going to help exactly in that fight.... 


> Still, Hiruzen being owned by brainless Juubito and needing like a dozen chapters to regen was like a kick in the balls from Kishi to his fans though...


Agreed. I was too disappointed with that. 



> All the hokages were underused as when they arrived there were no opponents good for them to fight one on one. A shame that Kishi did not keep Nagato or Kabuto around for them to have such.



Agreed as well. That barrier of theirs almost made me lose my mind. 
not to mention not even showing Minato's jutsu.  



Alex Payne said:


> Every perfect user of SM gains sensing.  You really want to go that way? Guess who else didn't show anything at all when using Sage Mode?  Madara's comment was about Senjutsu as a whole. He would say the same about stolen Senjutsu from Naruto or Kabuto. He doesn't say anything about volume and he doesn't even mention Hashirama's name when describing his new powers.


- There is no rule of that as far as I am concerned. Otherwise, we would have seen Hashirama using it.
- Yes, Minato has no feats with SM, which is why people don't even count it of his power. And it's why he quitted and started working with pokemon instead. 

- I don't know how did you come to that conclusion. Obviously he won't mention Hashirama's name as everyone and their mothers can see that is Hashirama.  



> [=The Pirate on Wheels;52644629]
> Incredible range of jutsu.  *He made the forest around Konoha*, and his battles redrew maps.  That was poor wording, and I never meant to imply he had scans of him sensing.  I don't know of any scans of him sensing, outside of telling Tobirama he's better than him at sensing.  Oh, I suppose he might have felt Madara when he came back.  I don't feel like looking.


No,The forest existed by itself. 
disagrees

No he did not. Oro is the one who told them, and only Tobirama and Minato who were able to sense. 


> I know what sage mode sensing does, from other sages, and Hashi is definitely a perfect sage, and a god of shinobi that is a sensor, who Madara said was on another level in all his techniques.  That's sufficient for me personally.


Hiruzen is god of shinobi, and he is not a sensor. Naruto does not have that title, and he is the best sensor. His abilities that Madara spoke off are the healing abilities. 



> God tree sucks.  Do you really think Yamato's mokuton, which could catch a bunch of giant animals, and restrain a giant squid, couldn't stop a normal generic sword?


The source of the wood sucks, but Hashirama's does not? What? 
The Tree would also be able to catch those animals. The thing is, falling animals, are not the same 
as Ninja attacking. I honestly don't see why should we treat Hashirama's wood differently. It's not like if we haven't seen his woods being destroyed or anything... 


> Do you think that Hashirama's base mokuton, which caught Madara's perfect Susano blade swings, and could catch a bijuudama, and could protect him from terraforming explosions would get chopped by a normal sword?


Notice that Hashirama's wood caught the sword by Its SIDES. Which is NOT sharp. It's just like
Naruto when he stopped Karui's sword from the sides with his hands. HOWEVER, when Madara attacked which the sharp side, the wood got cut down
Its SIDES.
Look at the big hands, and the little ones (that I assume for his Golem jutsu). I am pretty sure that Kishi does understand that well, and that's why he's showing it this way. 

Not to mention, as mentioned in the manga itself, that you can stop those things, but how can you stop the wind?
Its SIDES.
I don't think hands of wood can catch the wind honestly, and that's why I think they are effective attacks. 



> 2 dudes have knowledge.  Most of them have a legend.  I don't know if people get group meeting time before the fight to share knowledge.  Kakuzu knows, which is why he knows he's screwed.



Well, if he can survive by himself without his strongest attack, I think he would think that he can survive with the others, and him being more powerful than before. I honestly think you people downplay Obito, and Nagato too much here as well.


> *Kakuzu stated his original heart stopped beating*, but he lived on because of the other hearts he took.  I told you it's my personal theory and interpretation of what happened to all his jutsu.  Kakuzu clearly lost domu, his suitons, and such when he lost his hearts.  You're free to speculate otherwise.


I honestly don't remember that, I might go back and read those chapters latter on. 



> Mei was the Mizukage, and able to negate Madara's katons by exploiting a type advantage that allows a weaker jutsu to defeat a stronger jutsu.  There is no type advantage against Mokuton.



Fire is a type advantage against the Wood, and so is the wind. 
Since the first one is obvious, it's the law of nature, and the second one is perfect to cut down things. 



> [=StarWanderer;52644688]1. He was in a free fall and, as i know, he cant fly. Thats why he couldnt dodge it. The same as why he couldnt dodge Gaara's sand attack when he became alive thanks to RT. Because he was in a free fall. But the fatc is - he reacted to V2 Raikage Ei and blocked his punch with his hands.


He couldn't dodge any of A's attack. 
and again, defending himself does not make him faster.


> 2. Yeah - whats the sense to block a punch from 1 clone when there are 5 of them and when you spend a lot of chakra on that? Why should he block it when he is so fast? Maybe he simply wasnt fast enough?


Or simply he wanted to take it that way, and counterattack. 


> At least 1 clone was active at the moment of the fight between Madara and Hashirama. So Hashirama was not in his full power. Am i need to show you a scan from Manga? or will you re-read it by yourself?



To the million time, he's a freaking ET, his chakra regenerate. 1 freaking clone that barely has any chakra does not effect him. That is just such a pitiful excuse. 


> Tobirama commented that "even if you take clones back, you wont be powerfull enough" when he had confrontation with Juubito. And, as we know, Edo's have their restrictions and they are not as powerfull as those who are alive.


Yes, and they returned after that. The Edo Hokage were almost at full power. 



> Of-panel, so we dont know how he did it. He could use Deva Path, for example. Or something like that.
> It would have been betetr for him to now be in Gates, or Wood Dragon, because than, ther is a risk for him to be seal, dont you think?


I don't care. It was 1 on 1, and he did it. 



> Orochimaru can sense them, because he had tons of experience with them, and because almost all his body consists of them. Furthermore, Obito is not Orochimaru.
> 
> In a war era, where tons of people were killed, only Madara and Izuna had sharingan? And by the way, why Izuna couldnt see them, according to Madara? And the rest of Uchiha clan?
> 
> And how can you comment the fact that Madara, a sensory type, couldnt sense Hashirama in the end of their battle?


Obito have been with them more than Oro, he has that part in his body, and he has the MS. I see no reason to why he can't see them.

- from those who have the sharingan only madara was fighting Hashi.
- Madara was exhausted, and the sensing ability needs to be activated anyway. 



> Does not need any gates to be faster than Hashirama? Way beyond Hashirama in speed? Prove that.


Go and read the manga. Hashirama was never, even one been hyped for his speed. I don't know from where people come with all of those things for him. lol 


> Prove that B is faster than Hashirama. The fact Hashirama is in the same speed class as Madara (a shinobi in V2 Raikage speed class) even without Sage Mode makes your statements wrong, but it will be interesting for me to read your explanation.


B's feats are superior. Plain simple. 




> He failed when Obito absorbed tailes chakra and a part of Hashirama's Sage chakra, which also allowed him to dodge his Gudoudama's.


not sure what do you mean, or what are you referring to.


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## tkpirate (Jan 9, 2015)

> Go and read the manga. Hashirama was never, even one been hyped for his speed. I don't know from where people come with all of those things for him. lol



Hashirama being one of the strongest character,and one of the most hyped character,he should be fast.maybe not as fast as the god tiers,but should be one of the fastest top tiers.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 9, 2015)

Except here is Madara while using Hashirama's SM using sensing.

As of Hashirama's speed. He was handling 100% Kyubi(alongside Madara) in Base. While SM Naruto struggled against 50% one's speed. Plus fighting against Madara himself who while blind can humiliate the same SM Naruto.


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## Trojan (Jan 9, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> Hashirama being one of the strongest character,and one of the most hyped character,he should be fast.maybe not as fast as the god tiers,but should be one of the fastest top tiers.


I don't get the connection between his strength and his speed. 



Alex Payne said:


> Except here is Madara while using Hashirama's SM using sensing.
> 
> As of Hashirama's speed. He was handling 100% Kyubi(alongside Madara) in Base. While SM Naruto struggled against 50% one's speed. Plus fighting against Madara himself who while blind can humiliate the same SM Naruto.



How did you come to the conclusion that is because of Hashirama's SM exactly?
Here is Madara BEFORE getting SM was able to sense
using sensing
using sensing

the Kid was not expecting a fight to begin with. It's just like how Lee while not using the Gates was able to humiliate Madara and fodderstompped him, when Hashirama couldn't.

As for battling Kurama, Kurama was being controlled, and his role was only firing those TBBs. He was not attacking physically as far as I remember.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

> He couldn't dodge any of A's attack.
> and again, defending himself does not make him faster.



He couldnt because he was in a free fall in the air. Just as expected - you ignored that.

He defended himself from it point blank. With no problem. And he was not as fast as EMS Madara at that time. And his mokuton clones were fast enough to tag V2 Raikage. Those facts makes me think EMS Madara is faster than prime Ei.



> Or simply he wanted to take it that way, and counterattack.



And how he suppose to counteratatck, when he is defending himself from the punch? How could he counter-attack? And dont you think that if he wanted to counteratatck, he would have done that in different manner? Whats the point for him to take such a risk of being killed by the other clones while he is holding 1 clones Susanoo fist? Dont you think that if he realy was much faster and wanted to counterattack, he would have done it right away?



> To the million time, he's a freaking ET, his chakra regenerate. 1 freaking clone that barely has any chakra does not effect him. That is just such a pitiful excuse.



He couldnt make more than 5 or 6 clones, as i remember. because of Edo's limitations. And Tobirama's comment about how he cant defeat Juubito even with him taking bakc his clones makes your statement wrong. And that comment was comming from the one who created ET. Edo tensei has its limitations. And, because of what we have seen in Manga, their chakra is infinite, but cant regenerate right away. Hashirama was weakened, because 1 of his clones was still active.



> Yes, and they returned after that. The Edo Hokage were almost at full power.



Not almost, but close to their full power. And that line was from the one who created ET.



> I don't care. It was 1 on 1, and he did it.



How can i debate with you when you dont pay attention to all the details of feats? How can i debate with you when you are not objective? How people can call you a good debater when you debate in such a manner?

It happened off-panel. We dont know how he did it. But we saw in manga how Hashirama reacted to Madara and dodged his attacks.



> Obito have been with them more than Oro, he has that part in his body, and he has the MS. I see no reason to why he can't see them.
> 
> - from those who have the sharingan only madara was fighting Hashi.
> - Madara was exhausted, and the sensing ability needs to be activated anyway.



His body part is only a *half* of his body, and it *partly consists out of Hashirama's cells*. 

1. So what? Izuna participated in battles, just like the rest of the Uchiha and Senju. But Madara commented that only *he* was able to see the difference between the real Hashirama and the clone. Or do you want to tell me that Uchiha and Senju fought in one area, and Hashirama dueled Madara in different area? 

2. Realy? Sensing ability of a sensory type needs to be activated and is not a passive ability? I doubt that. 



> Go and read the manga. Hashirama was never, even one been hyped for his speed. I don't know from where people come with all of those things for him. lol



Read it. Multiple times. And i completely disagree. But *you* made a statement. So its up to *you* to prove it is true. I can explain my point of view in any thread i participated here. Can you do the same and explain to me why base Guy is faster than Hashirama, who can compete with shinobi who can react to V2 Raikage? 

I'll wait. Because i dont know from where you came with this thing aither.



> B's feats are superior. Plain simple.



You can try to prove that to me. Some people here wrote you are a good debater and i wanna see if its true. Bring those feats.



> not sure what do you mean, or what are you referring to.



What were *you* referring to?

And by the way, Hashirama's mokuton dencity is not the same in any wood he creates. Some of his wooden constructs are harder to damage than the others.


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## tkpirate (Jan 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I don't get the connection between his strength and his speed.



if he was slow,he wouldn't be considered so strong.faster ninja's would have blitz him and defeated him.the fact that he is the one of the strongest(except the godtiers) means that atleast in reaction speed he is one of the fastest.


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## sabre320 (Jan 9, 2015)

having no knowledge on obito is a game ender....obito can warp especially with distractions not to mention at 500 meterdd deidara can take off and prep c4 hashi does not have ranged techniques to catch him and c4 counters his regen hard


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## LostSelf (Jan 9, 2015)

Hashirama's Mokuton was as big as Perfect Susano'o. Of course he can tag Deidara in the air.


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## BurningVegeta (Jan 9, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Enhanced sensing capabilities brah. If KCM Naruto can react somewhat to Rinnegan Obito, there's no way in hell MS Obito is somehow going to backstab Hashirama.


Just in case everyone has forgot who the dawn; the motherfucking Akatsuki are! We have

Team Aerial:
Konan
Deiadara

Team make sure you kill me twice:
Hidan
Konan

Team your wood means shit to me Hashirama:
Obito
Zetsu

Team we'll fuck up the field with water and poison spikes and shit:
Sasori
Kisame

Solo-team... once I catch you, your dead:
Six Paths of Pein


...nobody who went up against this team minus Obito, Post-Manga Naruto/Sasuke, Juubi Uchihas, can take Akatsuki all out in one.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Notice how his hair was up? Thats an indicator of V2. Ei was in his full speed. he even commented Madara reacting to him and needed Oonoki to make him even faster. And later it was shown that even Madara's mokuton clones were fast enough to tag V2 Raikage.


His hair wasn't up. It was still down and flat. When we see him from above and behind, his hair wasn't up. And A never said that was his full speed. So thus, Madara barely reacted to A's initial version of speed.




> Wrong. They were both speedsters according to feats.


No, they really aren't. You're exaggerating their feats.


> And Tobirama is faster and has better reflexes than Ei. He put a FTG formula on Juubito - did something KCM Minato, for example, couldnt do.


And base Minato was faster than Tobirama by Tobirama's own admission. AND base Minato was faster than Eight-Gated Guy. A's faster than Madara and Hashirama, speed isn't a trait they are known for.





> Rinnegan has nothing to do with speed, reflexes and perception.


Actually it does. Its the highest level of the Sharingan which increases reflexes and perception, and Madara's was evolved from the Straight Choku like Sasuke's which gives him better reflexes, speed, and perception. Not to mention Madara's a natural sensor (Hashirama is not), his sensing was enhanced with the Sage Mode he stole.




> A single punch from V2 Ei. Hair was up - V2. And if he was full power against Sasuke, there is no reason he wont be with his full power against Madara. And if he was faster, he could not need Oonoki to make him lighter (thus faster).


Hair's down. Manga disproves you. Hair's still down when he first powered up too. He went all out against Sasuke to dodge Amaterasu, not to do a simple punch. If A went full power against Madara, A would have said so. Visually, he didn't and we didn't see his Raiton Chakra Mode get more intense.



tkpirate said:


> Hashirama being one of the strongest character,and one of the most hyped character,he should be fast.maybe not as fast as the god tiers,but should be one of the fastest top tiers.


Even though his fighting style is either stationary or riding on one of his constructs? Hashirama was never known for speed. He never showed off enhanced speed or reflexes like Minato, Naruto, Tobirama, A, Guy, Obito, or Sasuke. The manga, IE the author emphasizes how fast they are and how fast their techniques are. Hashirama? All we get is his technique's _power_, not his speed. Overall Hashirama was probably average in speed, neither good or bad since he never needed it with Mokuton.



Alex Payne said:


> Except here is Madara while using Hashirama's SM using sensing.


Madara is also a natural sensor too, unlike Hashirama, so his Sage Mode sensing would have been greater than Hashirama's due to the boost Sage Mode gives ninjutsu.


> As of Hashirama's speed. He was handling 100% Kyubi(alongside Madara) in Base. While SM Naruto struggled against 50% one's speed. Plus fighting against Madara himself who while blind can humiliate the same SM Naruto.


1. SM Naruto had expended a lot of Sage Chakra with that big ass Rasenshuriken. He was in the same state he was in during the battle with Pain, his reflexes and speed dropped greatly from using up all that chakra.

2. Hashirama let his wood constructs fight Kurama and kept his distance, while Naruto fought it one on one. Sorry, that's not speed feat.


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## Hachibi (Jan 9, 2015)

Pretty sure reacting to something doesn't make you faster than it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 9, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Pretty sure reacting to something doesn't make you faster than it.


Exactly. Hashirama's style was all about Mokuton. It made up for his lack of speed compared to other characters. Madara was equally as fast but his Sharingan gave the edge in prediction and precision, and his sensing made physical confrontations between him and Hashirama, who augmented his physical abilities with Mokuton, pointless.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

> His hair wasn't up. It was still down and flat. When we see him from above and behind, his hair wasn't up. And A never said that was his full speed. So thus, Madara barely reacted to A's initial version of speed.



Should he say when he is in full speed and when he is not? No he shouldnt. 

And how can you tell that his hair wasnt up when he punched Madara? You cant say for sure since the picture is from above.

Before that punch his hair was up, so it was his V2 armor.

Plus, if he was all out against Sasuke, there is no reason he wont be all out against Madara.

And realy? Barely? He reacted to it point blank.



> No, they really aren't. You're exaggerating their feats.



Their feats speaks for themselfs. They are speedsters.



> And base Minato was faster than Tobirama by Tobirama's own admission. AND base Minato was faster than Eight-Gated Guy. A's faster than Madara and Hashirama, speed isn't a trait they are known for.



Go re-read the manga. Tobirama told only about his Shunshin technique. Not about his own speed compared to that of Minato.

Base Minato wasnt than Eight-Gated Guy. Guy didnt pushed from the air, he slowed down. 

And realy? Are you serious? Base Sage Mode Edo Minato was blitzed by Juubidara, who was put on the defensive by 7 Gates Guy and you write that Minato was faster than 8 Gates Guy? Are you serious? 

Speed is a trait they both had shown in the manga. 



> Actually it does. Its the highest level of the Sharingan which increases reflexes and perception, and Madara's was evolved from the Straight Choku like Sasuke's which gives him better reflexes, speed, and perception. Not to mention Madara's a natural sensor (Hashirama is not), his sensing was enhanced with the Sage Mode he stole.



Thats your fanfic and opinion. I'll wait for you to give me a proof from the actual Manga, or Databook.



> Hair's down. Manga disproves you. Hair's still down when he first powered up too. He went all out against Sasuke to dodge Amaterasu, not to do a simple punch. If A went full power against Madara, A would have said so. Visually, he didn't and we didn't see his Raiton Chakra Mode get more intense.



You sure the hair was down? Because the moment of punch is shown from above.

If Ei went full power against Madara (and he did), he can say that, or can not.

Before the punch, his hair was up. It was V2. Not only that, but even Madara's mokuton clones were fast enough to tag V2 Raikage Ei.

And, finally, if he went all out against inferior Sasuke, there is no reason he wont be all out against Madara.

LOL, "AND base Minato was faster than Eight-Gated Guy."... I dont know if its nessesary to take you serious after that comment.


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## Hachibi (Jan 9, 2015)

Base Minato being faster than 8th Gate Gai is legit since Minato told Gai to not slow down after Madara throwed all but one of his Gudodama.


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## Deadway (Jan 9, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Base Minato being faster than 8th Gate Gai is legit since Minato told Gai to not slow down after Madara throwed all but one of his Gudodama.



Didn't know it was April Fools yet.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Should he say when he is in full speed and when he is not? No he shouldnt.


Yeah he should. Its a narrative tool to show that a character is fast. A said only two people dodged his maximum speed-guess what Madara wasn't one of them.


> And how can you tell that his hair wasnt up when he punched Madara? You cant say for sure since the picture is from above.


Since we saw both before the punch and after, his hair wasn't spikey it was flat and down.


> Before that punch his hair was up, so it was his V2 armor.


That was his initial state. His hair was still flat, his Raiton Chakra Mode wasn't at full power, and again, if Madara blocked A's full speed A would have commented on how fast Madara was. We got none of those.


> Plus, if he was all out against Sasuke, there is no reason he wont be all out against Madara.


Since A never needed to go all speed against Madara since he was fighting in tandem with Mei? Someone vastly slower than him?


> And realy? Barely? He reacted to it point blank.


Yes, it was barely. He barely raised his hands in time and _commented on A's speed._




> Their feats speaks for themselfs. They are speedsters.


No, they don't. All you show is that they are fast. But NOT the fastest of their time. There's a difference kid. Hashirama was a stationary fighter so he didn't need high speed, and Madara had the Sharingan which didn't require high speed. 




> Go re-read the manga. Tobirama told only about his Shunshin technique. Not about his own speed compared to that of Minato.


Yeah, I have re-read the manga. Tobirama flat out said Minato was faster than him.


> Base Minato wasnt than Eight-Gated Guy. Guy didnt pushed from the air, he slowed down.


Guy was told to keep at his full speed so I caught you in another falsehood.


> And realy? Are you serious? Base Sage Mode Edo Minato was blitzed by Juubidara, who was put on the defensive by 7 Gates Guy and you write that Minato was faster than 8 Gates Guy? Are you serious?


Minato reacts to Eight Gated Guy after telling him to go full speed and out paces him.

Stop downplaying.


> Speed is a trait they both had shown in the manga.


It wasn't a trait that was emphasized. Both are fast, but not the fastest in the universe nor of all time. 




> Thats your fanfic and opinion. I'll wait for you to give me a proof from the actual Manga, or Databook.


It was explained in the databook as such. 



> You sure the hair was down? Because the moment of punch is shown from above.


Yes, I'm sure. When A goes all out, his hair becomes extremely spikey and his Raiton Chakra Mode becomes very thick. Neither happened against Madara.


> If Ei went full power against Madara (and he did), he can say that, or can not.


If A went full speed against Madara, he would have said so. But he didn't. Nor did he say that Madara was on the same level of speed of Naruto and Minato, the _only two people in the entire Narutoverse who reacted and dodged his maximum speed._


> Before the punch, his hair was up. It was V2. Not only that, but even Madara's mokuton clones were fast enough to tag V2 Raikage Ei.


No, it was still down and his Raiton no Yoroi was in its usual state. Seriously, you seem to need your eyes checked.

And way to ignore that the only way Madara's clones tagged A was _when he was distracted by Tsunade._


> And, finally, if he went all out against inferior Sasuke, there is no reason he wont be all out against Madara.


He only went all out to dodge Amaterasu, one of the fastest techs in the manga and an attack Madara _lacks_. Not to mention A was fighting alongside people _slower than him._


> LOL, "AND base Minato was faster than Eight-Gated Guy."... I dont know if its nessesary to take you serious after that comment.


Manga proves that. You downplay Minato too much when manga and databook said he was the fastest character.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

> Yeah he should. Its a narrative tool to show that a character is fast. A said only two people dodged his maximum speed-guess what Madara wasn't one of them.



No he shouldnt. And do you think he should tell anyone "Oh my good he dodged my full spees!" during the war? Anyway, he already told Madara can counter his speed and he needed Oonoki to make him lighter.



> Since we saw both before the punch and after, his hair wasn't spikey it was flat and down.



Not realy. We cant see if his hair was spikey at the moment of a punch. But it was spikey when he with Mizukage charged at Madara. Ei used V2 against Madara. 



> That was his initial state. His hair was still flat, his Raiton Chakra Mode wasn't at full power, and again, if Madara blocked A's full speed A would have commented on how fast Madara was. We got none of those.



He commented that Madara can counter his speed and he needed Oonoki to make him lighter. Also, his hair was spikey. So yeah - it was V2 Raiton armor. 

{QUOTE]Since A never needed to go all speed against Madara since he was fighting in tandem with Mei? Someone vastly slower than him?[/QUOTE]

She didnt do anything with her speed - she just used her Lava style. Thats all. And lol and "never needed". Madara was far more powerfull than MS Sasuke. Thats why 5 Kage gathered.



> Yes, it was barely. He barely raised his hands in time and commented on A's speed.



He commented. So what? He still reacted to him. And he was so fast he put his arms when V2 Raikage's fist was like inches from his head. Very impressive.



> No, they don't. All you show is that they are fast. But NOT the fastest of their time. There's a difference kid. Hashirama was a stationary fighter so he didn't need high speed, and Madara had the Sharingan which didn't require high speed.



First of all, baby, dont call me a kid, alright? 

Second, Hashirama needed his speed to dodge attacks from the high points of his mokuton constructs. And Sharingan dont help you when your body isnt fast enough.

The may be not the fastest of their time, or maybe not. We dont know for sure, because Madara told only about how Tobirama was *praised* as the fastest of their time. But they are speedsters. They even used close combat weapons. So yeah, they needed speed and they were very fast indeed.



> Yeah, I have re-read the manga. Tobirama flat out said Minato was faster than him.



Oh yeah? Bring here a scan.



> Guy was told to keep at his full speed so I caught you in another falsehood.



He was told to keep going forward. Thats not the same as moving at your full speed.



> Minato reacts to Eight Gated Guy after telling him to go full speed and out paces him.



No he dont. 8 gates Guy wasnt in his full speed at that moment. Furthermore, Minato did it only because of Lee.

And the fact 7 Gates Guy showed a much higher speed level than Minato already makes your statement to be a nonsense.



> Stop downplaying.



I never did. Stop overestimating Manga characters and giving them traits they could not even dream about.



> It wasn't a trait that was emphasized. Both are fast, but not the fastest in the universe nor of all time.



Yes, they are not the fastest of all time. So what? They both are still fast enough to compete witht he likes of Raikage and Tobi.



> It was explained in the databook as such.



Ok, bring here scans.



> Yes, I'm sure. When A goes all out, his hair becomes extremely spikey and his Raiton Chakra Mode becomes very thick. Neither happened against Madara.



Wrong. His hair was spikey and his Raiton Chakra Mode was very thick. 



> If A went full speed against Madara, he would have said so. But he didn't. Nor did he say that Madara was on the same level of speed of Naruto and Minato, the only two people in the entire Narutoverse who reacted and dodged his maximum speed.



Prove that he would have sayd so. He didnt say that when he tried to attack Sasuke. 

So what? he still sayd that Madara could counter his speed. And he needed Oonoki to make him lighter.



> No, it was still down and his Raiton no Yoroi was in its usual state. Seriously, you seem to need your eyes checked.
> 
> And way to ignore that the only way Madara's clones tagged A was when he was distracted by Tsunade.



It was up. Maybe i should bring here a picture so you can see better that his hair was up? LOL. And you are writing nonsense about my ayes? 

If he was fast enough, he would have dodged that Susanoo punch from a clone. But he tried to block it, which was completely stupid in that situation.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Base Minato being faster than 8th Gate Gai is legit since Minato told Gai to not slow down after Madara throwed all but one of his Gudodama.



Moving forward is not the same as moving in a full speed.

And realy, where is your logic, guys? Juubidara blitzed Sage Mode Edo Minato and couldnt do the same to 7 Gates Guy. How is your fanfic legit?


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Pretty sure reacting to something doesn't make you faster than it.



Edo Madara was not as fast as EMS Madara and he reacted to V2 Raikage. EMS Madara will make it look even easier. And he outpased SM Naruto pretty easily. He is faster than Ei.


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## Hachibi (Jan 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Moving forward is not the same as moving in a full speed.







> And realy, where is your logic, guys? Juubidara blitzed Sage Mode Edo Minato and couldnt do the same to 7 Gates Guy. How is your fanfic legit?



Blame Kishi and his consistency



StarWanderer said:


> Edo Madara was not as fast as EMS Madara and he reacted to V2 Raikage. EMS Madara will make it look even easier. And he outpased SM Naruto pretty easily. He is faster than Ei.



Considering Edo Madara had Hashi's cell and the Rinnegan, no. Also, we don't know if ET affect the user physically.

Outpacing SM Naruto mean shit since he's slower in shunshin speed than his KCM counterpart.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> No he shouldnt. And do you think he should tell anyone "Oh my good he dodged my full spees!" during the war? Anyway, he already told Madara can counter his speed and he needed Oonoki to make him lighter.


Yes, he would. He did it in the last War when he was fighting against Minato. The manga made ti clear that A wasn't going all out and Onoki was used to increase his attack power by making him _heavier._




> Not realy. We cant see if his hair was spikey at the moment of a punch. But it was spikey when he with Mizukage charged at Madara. Ei used V2 against Madara.


You should really look again. A's hair was still flat when he charged at Madara. And it was down after the attack. So he didn't go all out in speed. The manga would have emphasized Madara's, not A's speed if A went all out in that area. Its something that Kishimoto loves doing.




> He commented that Madara can counter his speed and he needed Oonoki to make him lighter. Also, his hair was spikey. So yeah - it was V2 Raiton armor.


No, it wasn't. Visually he wasn't in V2, he was in V1. And A himself says he'll even get faster the next time he attacks, he just needs more attack power behind him. Remember, even his first level of speed is insanely fast which Naruto commented on. And he never said he needed Onoki to make him faster, he'd go faster himself.




> She didnt do anything with her speed - she just used her Lava style. Thats all. And lol and "never needed". Madara was far more powerfull than MS Sasuke. Thats why 5 Kage gathered.


And unlike vs. Sasuke, which was a one on one fight, A had to fight alongside others. A>B>C logic doesn't work too, Sasuke had one of the fastest attacks in the series that A needed to dodge, while Madara...couldn't dodge Amateasu and got tagged by it.




> He commented. So what? He still reacted to him. And he was so fast he put his arms when V2 Raikage's fist was like inches from his head. Very impressive.


That was Version 1 A, not Version 2. And he barely reacted and said A was fast. A didn't compliment Madara's speed in turn, and even said he'll just go faster next time. Thus...it wasn't full speed.




> First of all, baby, dont call me a kid, alright?
> 
> Second, Hashirama needed his speed to dodge attacks from the high points of his mokuton constructs. And Sharingan dont help you when your body isnt fast enough.


Hashirama mostly fought on branches or on a wood construct. He didn't need high speed to fight since the constructs would do it for him. And Madara's also has sensory abilities to back up the Sharingan and his own reflexes, remember?


> The may be not the fastest of their time, or maybe not. We dont know for sure, because Madara told only about how Tobirama was *praised* as the fastest of their time. But they are speedsters. They even used close combat weapons. So yeah, they needed speed and they were very fast indeed.


...you do realize people can be fast, but not speedsters right? Speedsters base their entire fighting style around their speed. That's why Minato, A, Naruto, Tobirama, and Guy are speedsters, while Madara and Hashirama who use other abilities and don't emphasize or try to make themselves faster aren't. Their feats aren't up to that of the fastest characters of the manga.




> Oh yeah? Bring here a scan.


Right here. And they were using Hiraishin...and several times in the manga Shunshin and Hiraishin are used simultaneously for Minato's speed. Minato's faster than Tobirama. Hell even in the raws, Tobirama said that Minato was faster than him.




> He was told to keep going forward. Thats not the same as moving at your full speed.


And Guy never was shown slowing down. Or told to slow down. So yes, Minato was faster than him there.




> No he dont. 8 gates Guy wasnt in his full speed at that moment. Furthermore, Minato did it only because of Lee.




Night Guy is Guy's fastest attack and maximum speed, that is true, but Minato was faster than Guy's normal Eight Gated speed. And Minato had to:

1. React to the Kunai's throwing in time to intercept the Gudodama.
2. Teleport it away before Guy hit him.
3. Guy able to attack uninterrupted.


> And the fact 7 Gates Guy showed a much higher speed level than Minato already makes your statement to be a nonsense


Now this is some serious bullshit. Seven Gated Guy was NOT faster than Minato. His assault on Juudara did as much as what Minato did to him. IE-_nothing._ None of Seven Gated Guy's attacks even hit and Madara backhanded his Afternoon Tiger and broke his ribs. Seriously, when Guy did nothing in that situation, _how can you honestly claim he's faster than Minato with a fucking straight face?_




> I never did. Stop overestimating Manga characters and giving them traits they could not even dream about.


You are downplaying them. Hell when A says he'll just have to attack faster next time, you claim he's at full speed in the first assault. You downplay Minato's speed so much it shows you have a bias against him.




> Yes, they are not the fastest of all time. So what? They both are still fast enough to compete witht he likes of Raikage and Tobi.


No, they aren't. In terms of pure speed, they're inferior to A's and Tobi's speed. A, Minato, Naruto, Tobirama, Obito, and Sasuke are known as the fastest of their times or in Minato's case, the fastest in history. 




> Ok, bring here scans.


You do know that everyone is still translating, right?




> Wrong. His hair was spikey and his Raiton Chakra Mode was very thick.


And then A says he'll just go faster next time. That wasn't his maximum level of speed. That was again, his initial one.




> Prove that he would have sayd so. He didnt say that when he tried to attack Sasuke.


Since he wasn't fighting Sasuke in speed. Sasuke couldn't react to his maximum level of speed, hence why he camped out in his Amaterasu shielded Susano'o.

And yes, he would have said so since he commented on Naruto and Minato's speed. 


> So what? he still sayd that Madara could counter his speed. And he needed Oonoki to make him lighter.


Here's what he said:

A: You're able to guard yourself against my speed (with Susano'o), I've got to up the speed...to get enough power to crush his guard.

A was referring to Madara's guard, his Susano'o, since his power alone wasn't alone enough to damage it. 




> It was up. Maybe i should bring here a picture so you can see better that his hair was up? LOL. And you are writing nonsense about my ayes?


I've been comparing the states a lot. I've LINKED you the pictures of each state to show the difference. You're so intellectually dishonest you keep emphasizing that A was at maximum speed, when the manga showed he wasn't and when A said he wasn't.


> If he was fast enough, he would have dodged that Susanoo punch from a clone. But he tried to block it, which was completely stupid in that situation.


A was distracted. Then he got genjutsued. to catch A you need a distraction or be faster than him.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Moving forward is not the same as moving in a full speed.
> 
> And realy, where is your logic, guys? Juubidara blitzed Sage Mode Edo Minato and couldnt do the same to 7 Gates Guy. How is your fanfic legit?


Other translations AND Viz had Minato telling Guy to attack no matter what and keep going at full speed. Juubi Madara never blitzed Edo Sage Mode Minato, he reacted and sliced off Minato's arm since Minato's kunai _fell short._ And against Seven Gated Guy...Guy failed to land a single hit AND his best attack in that state was backhanded. So your logic fails.

(Putting this here since my post is probably too long)


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 9, 2015)

hashirama is faster than obito, lets just get that out of the way right now.

the shinjus branches caught and sapped naruto and minato of their chakra. both of them are faster than obito. 
hashirama dodged the same branches while fighting madara and he wasnt even looking at them.





*Spoiler*: __ 








and lets just disprove the obvious fanboy excuse of the shinju going after minato and naruto more because they had more chakra.

hashiramas *clone* states that the nine tails has almost as much chakra as him. if hashiramas clone states that it has that much chakra, the real hashiramas chakra is far beyond kurama.


it doesnt matter how much obito teleports. even base hashirama casually dodges every kind of surprise warp attempt then effortlessly thrashes him in cqc.


the mokujin possesses size thats on par with PS and the juubi. 
the akatsuki could be killed by its mere footsteps just like the juubi clones were.



no one survives the mokujins punch. the strongest move that the akatsuki can use against hashirama is pains chibaku tensei. even 8 tailed 50% kurama can break out of that. the mokujin has physical strength far surpassing 50% kurama.
the mokujin destroys CT then one shots everyone in akatsuki.


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## BurningVegeta (Jan 9, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> hashirama is faster than obito, lets just get that out of the way right now.
> 
> the shinjus branches caught and sapped naruto and minato of their chakra. both of them are faster than obito.
> hashirama dodged the same branches while fighting madara and he wasnt even looking at them.


Yo mate, is that the same _tree_ that ignored Edo Tobirama and Edo Hiruzen when it was trying to bind everyone to the Infinite Tsukuyomi? Yes? Well you have no argument, it is clear... to all or it should be that the Shinju Tree. It's really obvious that the tree was not going after the Edo Tensei characters which at this point consisted of Madara, Hashirama, Tobirama, Hiruzen and Minato. So you comparing speed of people the tree was after to that it wasn't is totally level.68 bullshit. 

Read the entire chapter again and you'll see once the tree bloomed, not once did it go after the Edo characters like it went after the living members of the alliance, which includes Naruto and anyone else you're comparing. So you cannot draw comparisons.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

1. No he would not. Stop bringing here your fanfic. Its not nessesary for character to say what technique or power level he will use. 

Yeah, made it clear. Especially after Raikage told he need to increase his speed. And than - bam - Oonoki showed up. Oonoki could light him up and make him heavy just in the moments from the attack. And thats what he did there. By the way, Madara still knew from what direction their aggravated rock technique will be. he was perfectly looking at that direction.

2. You should realy look again yourself. We cant realy say if his hair was down at that moment. And the fact his hair was down *after* the punch proves nothing at all.

Well, Ei himself stated that Madara could counter his speed and that he needed to increase it. And than Oonoki helped him there. So by that way Kishimoto pretty much emphasized Madara's speed. If Raikage Ei was fast enough, he would have just go V2 and Oonoki would have just used his Jinton, but he spent his chakra to increase Ei's speed. because Ei wasnt fast enough.

And when battle began, Ei's hair was spikey, just like in his V2 Raiton. It was his V2 Raiton that he used against Madara. And he was all out against Sasuke, why wont he be all out against Madara?

3. "Even my speed" - Ei was surprised there. And why Oonoki helped him? Why couldnt he just "increase" his speed? And why Madara was still able to see in what direction they will attack? 

And does that mean he had got to up the speed by himself? because Oonoki helped him there.

Why he didnt tell Oonoki to use his Jinton rather to increase his speed? 

4. So what? Madara was destroying Fourth Division and made a Meteor. Why wont he be all out against Madara? 

ABC logic works in our case.

And Madara could not dodge it because aither he knew he can absorb it, or he didnt sense it with his sensory abilities. Sasuke attacked him from behind there. 

5. That was V2 Ei. His hair was spikey when he started to charge at Madara with Mizukage and we cant realy say if his hair was up at the moment of the punch, but he was very surprised ("even my speed") by how Madara countered him and needed Oonoki to increase his speed, but even than Madara could unticipate from what direction the attack will be. And his clones could tag V2 Ei, because he couldnt dodge Clones Susanoo fist. So its logical he had V2 there.

6. He needed reaction speed to attack people with wood. And he was open while sitting on the highest point of his constructs. Thats why he needed speed. And its better to be well-rounded shinobi to be able to adapt to any situation.

Since when sensory abilities increase body movement speed?

7. Hashirama didnt base all of their fighting style around speed, but that does not mean they were not speedsters.

They both have feats of speedsters. And they need great reaction speed to use their techniques just in time. Plus, as i already wrote, its better to be well-rounded shinobi than have a weakness i speed and reflexes.

8. Do you even read the things you bring up here? Shunshin, not speed. *SHUNSHIN*. A ninjutsu that allows people to travel fast from point A to point B (travel speed). But it has nothing to do with a fighting speed. 

Tobirama never sayd Minato is faster than him. And Tobirama is much faster than base Minato:

Tobirama had good enough speed and reflexes to put a FTG formula on Juubito when they had confrontation. When KCM Minato had confrontation with Juubito, he did nothing, got blitzed, lost his arm and would have been destroyed if not for Tobirama, who saved him there. That was KCM Mianto, his speed, reflexes and reaction speed were drastically increased by Kurama's chakra.

And dont even bother bringing here that "Mindless Juubito" thing thats based only on Minato's own assumption.

9. He never was shown to push from the air in those pages of Manga. Plus, Lee throughn the kunai there. And kakashi reacted with Kamui...

And, finally, 7 Gates Guy was much faster than Sage Mode Minato. 

So by logic it is obvious that 8 Gates Guy slowed down.

10. No he wasnt. Because he was blitzed by Juubidara who couldnt blitz 7 Gates Guy, who is slower than 8 Gates Guy. Simple logic, isnt it?

8 gates Guy didnt push from the air at that moment to move fast. And he saw those Gudoudama's from there, since Gudoudamas arent faster than Juubi Jins. So he slowed down. And the fact 7 Gates Guy had better speed, the fact kakashi, Gaara and Lee reacted to that situation - all these facts proves Guy slowed down.

11. Juubidara blitzed Sage Mode Minato in 3 moves. 7 Gates Guy put Juubidara on the defensive, dodged his staff and sheres and was fast enough to use Hirudora there. Juubidara couldnt blitz Guy, but blitzed Minato. So 7 gates Guy is faster than Minato. Its logical, isnt it. 

And that was Sage Mode Minato, by the way.

And his ribs were broken because of Hirudora and gates side effects.

12. No i am not. A sayd he had got to up the speed. By himself? No, since he needed Oonoki to make him lighter.

I am not downplaying Minato's speed. You better show me his feats. because beating featless young Ei and featless young Obito and many fodders means nothing at all.

13. They are not inferior. Madara reacted to V2 Ei, while being in Edo (weaker than living) state. And his clones were fast enough to tag V2 Ei. Both Hashirama and Madara are speedsters. And they arent slower than those you mentioned above.

Minato is not the fastest in history. He has no feats to suggest that. 

14. When you bring scans, than we can talk.

15. He sayd he got to up the speed. And he needed Oonoki to do that. Even than Madara was perfectly looking at the direction from where aggravated rock technique was used. And V2 Ei couldnt dodge his clones attack.

16. He went full speed against Sasuke, but he didnt start to cry - "Sasuke, get ready because i am at full speed now!". He just used his full speed. And thats all.

And he commented that Madara can counter even his speed. And he realy was surprised there.

17. Against even my speed. he was surprised there. And by the way, why he shout out loud about that and wasnt surprised at all when Oonoki started to help him there?

18. Ei havent sayd he wasnt in his full speed. And realy, he used V2 there. 

19. He blocked Susanoo's fist with his arm. Because he wasnt fast enough to go out of the attack line. And he was V2 there. Even Madara's mokuton clones were fast enough to react to V2 Raikage. 


No quotes here so my post wont be too long.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 9, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Yo mate, is that the same _tree_ that ignored Edo Tobirama and Edo Hiruzen when it was trying to bind everyone to the Infinite Tsukuyomi? Yes? Well you have no argument, it is clear... to all or it should be that the Shinju Tree. It's really obvious that the tree was not going after the Edo Tensei characters which at this point consisted of Madara, Hashirama, Tobirama, Hiruzen and Minato. So you comparing speed of people the tree was after to that it wasn't is totally level.68 bullshit.


this just sounds like a bad, desperate excuse. the tree didnt wrap up anyone that wasnt paralyzed by the light of IT. that alone makes your little rant completely moot.

the tree didnt go after naruto, sakura, sasuke or kakashi either because they were not hit by the light of IT.
what madara did is not the same thing that obito did.


> Read the entire chapter again and you'll see once the tree bloomed, not once did it go after the Edo characters like it went after the living members of the alliance, which includes Naruto and anyone else you're comparing. So you cannot draw comparisons.


im not sure how anyone could interpret the manga like this.
the tree went after edo tensei just like any other characters since they have chakra as well.
that has nothing to do with the edo tensei not being caught in IT and wrapped in branches.

the tree is clearly going after hashirama in the scans that i posted. he simply wasnt caught unlike naruto, minato or the alliance members. 

-hashiramas clone stating that it had as much chakra as kurama disproves the fanboy notion that the shinju showed bias to naruto or minato.
-naruto and minato were caught by the shinju.
-hashirama wasnt.
its just that simple. i shouldnt have to explain simple things like this.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> this just sounds like a bad, desperate excuse. the tree didnt wrap up anyone that wasnt paralyzed by the light of IT. that alone makes your little rant completely moot.
> 
> the tree didnt go after naruto, sakura, sasuke or kakashi either because they were not hit by the light of IT.
> what madara did is not the same thing that obito did.
> ...



Shinju's trees could go after Edo Minato because he had Kurama's chakra. And It looks like they were jumping on Shinjuu's branches that were going in another directions to absorb chakra. Maybe Edo's are immune to that?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Shinju's trees could go after Edo Minato because he had Kurama's chakra.


the branches went after minato because he had chakra in general. 


> And It looks like they were jumping on Shinjuu's branches that were going in another directions to absorb chakra. Maybe Edo's are immune to that?


no it doesnt look like that. now you are simply looking at the scan with bias. one of the branches are shown swinging at hashirama but he simply ducks.

in the other scans you can see a mass of branches piling up on an area where hashirama was but he just dodged them.

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## pumkin1988 (Jan 9, 2015)

It's very sad when after all the hype Akatsuki had in Part 1 and a bit in Part 2 
1 guy could take them all head on. I mean Maadar or Hashirama could solo the whole organization (Prime Hiruzen)

The power levels are really insane
I honestly can't see any situation where Akatsuki wins.

-Combo attacks and Hashi just gets pissed and uses Mokuton clones
-If each guy tries to go 1v1 he laughs at them then smokes them
-If say Obito or Itachi try to use the other guys as distractions Hashi regens instantly and kills them

The worst part is the distance. Within that time he goes SM and can create 10 Buddhas and a whole forest of death before they even get half way. He is crazy fast with his wood

In base I think he could win. With SM he rapes everyone


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## Sadgoob (Jan 9, 2015)

He claps his hands and most of Akatsuki is blinded with sage darkness genjutsu. He makes a seal and a dozen clones sage shunshin most of Akatsuki, ripping them apart limb from limb.

And when he gets bored, he claps his hands and surrounds them in forest while he's atop a a wooden Cthullu hundreds of stories tall. He's on an entirely different from the Akatsuki. 

Just like Edo Mandara made clones and toyed with the Gokage, so could Sage Hashirama with Akatsuki. Obito's the only one who briefly survives, but he's way out of his league without the Juubi.​


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Exactly. Hashirama's style was all about Mokuton. It made up for his lack of speed compared to other characters. Madara was equally as fast but his Sharingan gave the edge in prediction and precision, and his sensing made physical confrontations between him and Hashirama, who augmented his physical abilities with Mokuton, pointless.



We saw living Madara basically blow past Sage Naruto with pure speed, and I think it's safe to assume that Sage Hashirama was at least comparable to Madara in speed, if not faster.​


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## tkpirate (Jan 9, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Even though his fighting style is either stationary or riding on one of his constructs? Hashirama was never known for speed. He never showed off enhanced speed or reflexes like Minato, Naruto, Tobirama, A, Guy, Obito, or Sasuke. The manga, IE the author emphasizes how fast they are and how fast their techniques are. Hashirama? All we get is his technique's _power_, not his speed. Overall Hashirama was probably average in speed, neither good or bad since he never needed it with Mokuton.



let me clarify it properly.Hashirama should be one of fastest in reaction speed among the top tiers.he probably dosen't have movement speed like BM Naruto.

Hashirama was not known for speed,that's right,but that dosen't mean he was slow.Hagoromo isn't known for speed either,so dose that mean he is slow among the god tiers?

power is useless without speed,or reaction speed.so the fact that he could properly use his power in battle,and wasn't getting blitz by everyone,should show that he had good reaction speed,atleast in his SM.but probably still slower than people like BM Naruto.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 10, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the branches went after minato because he had chakra in general.
> 
> no it doesnt look like that. now you are simply looking at the scan with bias. one of the branches are shown swinging at hashirama but he simply ducks.
> 
> ...



Those were the feats of a 1/16th clone or however many he made too.  

Sheesh.  There Bee was running desperately from those "tenacious" trees because of his chakra.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 10, 2015)

> Madara is also a natural sensor too, unlike Hashirama, so his Sage Mode sensing would have been greater than Hashirama's due to the boost Sage Mode gives ninjutsu.



I think you got those names switched.


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## sabre320 (Jan 10, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> this just sounds like a bad, desperate excuse. the tree didnt wrap up anyone that wasnt paralyzed by the light of IT. that alone makes your little rant completely moot.
> 
> the tree didnt go after naruto, sakura, sasuke or kakashi either because they were not hit by the light of IT.
> what madara did is not the same thing that obito did.
> ...



Ah yes kami sama hashis clone has as much chakra as bsm naruto and bm minato...


what you conveniently ignore is the fact that the main roots went after the bm duo while the tiny ones went after everyone else..

Biju Mode Naruto. holy shit bees faster too


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## sabre320 (Jan 10, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I think you got those names switched.



not really i think he meant it...blind madara was able to fight brilliantly and catch sm naruto offguard in cqc and find hahirama so ya hes a brilliant sensorin base


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## sabre320 (Jan 10, 2015)

Fact is at 500 meters deidara can take off and get out of range,animal path summons the bird and deva path gets on it ,from there deidara can prep and use c4 its a gameender for hashi and counters his regen hard...genjutsu is seen through deidaras eye...and rinnegan...obito can easily kamui warp with a surprise attack without knowledge...minato had to use ftg to escape..hashirama would not go sm at the start and thats his only hope of dealing with obito...deva can use cst to give obito an opening to kamui warp not to mention c4 ends it


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## Hachibi (Jan 10, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Fact is at 500 meters deidara can take off and get out of range,animal path summons the bird and deva path gets on it ,from there deidara can prep and use c4 its a gameender for hashi and counters his regen hard...genjutsu is seen through deidaras eye...and rinnegan...obito can easily kamui warp with a surprise attack without knowledge...minato had to use ftg to escape..hashirama would not go sm at the start and thats his only hope of dealing with obito...deva can use cst to give obito an opening to kamui warp not to mention c4 ends it



Deidara got nearly blitzed by Base Hebi Sasuke, no way in hell is he reacting to Hashi's techniques.

And Hashi start in SM btw


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## sabre320 (Jan 10, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Deidara got nearly blitzed by Base Hebi Sasuke, no way in hell is he reacting to Hashi's techniques.
> 
> And Hashi start in SM btw



match starts at 500 meters wth u talkin abt mokuton never blitzed no body...hashi is not blitzin them from 500 meters deva can use large shinra tensei to deflect base mokuton or cst to give deidara that chance not to mention for him himself to get on the bird


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## Hachibi (Jan 10, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> match starts at 500 meters wth u talkin abt mokuton never blitzed no body...hashi is not blitzin them from 500 meters deva can use large shinra tensei to deflect base mokuton or cst to give deidara that chance not to mention for him himself to get on the bird



Rikudo Sasuke blitzed nobody without using Amenotejikara, so a shitty argument.

CST will only push away Mokuton which won't stop Hashirama for using it.

Or do I need to remind you that Hashi's construct was fast enough to grab a Bijuudama?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 10, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> not really i think he meant it...blind madara was able to fight brilliantly and catch sm naruto offguard in cqc and find hahirama so ya hes a brilliant sensorin base



Hashirama is a sensor without sage mode.  Madara is not.


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## Dominus (Jan 10, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hashirama is a sensor without sage mode.  Madara is not.



Madara was able to sense Hashirama's chakra while everyone else was surprised that he came to the battlefield and he knew where Hashirama, Naruto and Sai were when he was blind.


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## sabre320 (Jan 10, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Rikudo Sasuke blitzed nobody without using Amenotejikara, so a shitty argument.
> 
> CST will only push away Mokuton which won't stop Hashirama for using it.
> 
> Or do I need to remind you that Hashi's construct was fast enough to grab a Bijuudama?



are u saying hashirama is going to make a mokujin ride it and crush deva and deidara from 500m and they wont be able to react? hashirama is not a speedster mokuton has never been shown to blitz anyone...any kage level ninja can react from 500m that is a huge distance especially in peins case he dodged rasenshuriken pointblank..


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## sabre320 (Jan 10, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hashirama is a sensor without sage mode.  Madara is not.



Madara has shown much better proficiency in reactions and sensing sm hashirama was skewered with multiple rods against edo madara sm madara was trolling tobiramas blindside surprise ftg attacks..he was catchin sm naruto offguard in cqc and easily located hashirama while blind//that is top tier sensing without sagemode


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## Hachibi (Jan 10, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> are u saying hashirama is going to make a mokujin ride it and crush deva and deidara from 500m and they wont be able to react?



Yes.



> hashirama is not a speedster mokuton has never been shown to blitz anyone



BM Minato never blitzed anyone yet he is fast.



> ...any kage level ninja can react from 500m that is a huge distance especially in peins case he dodged rasenshuriken pointblank..



Rasenshuriken can't be lauched faster than a fired Bijuudama. Unless we're talking about Rikudo Naruto, but since that isn't the case...


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## Sadgoob (Jan 10, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Fact is at 500 meters deidara can take off and get out of range,animal path summons the bird and deva path gets on it ,from there deidara can prep and use c4 its a gameender for hashi and counters his regen hard



Why do you think it would definitely trump regeneration?​


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## StarWanderer (Jan 10, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Madara has shown much better proficiency in reactions and sensing sm hashirama was skewered with multiple rods against edo madara sm madara was trolling tobiramas blindside surprise ftg attacks..he was catchin sm naruto offguard in cqc and easily located hashirama while blind//that is top tier sensing without sagemode



That happened off-panel, so we dont know how exactly he managed to stab Hashirama with those rods. What we know is that Hashirama, without his Sage Mode, was fast enough to react to Edo Madara, dodge him and immobilise him twice. Again, without a Sage Mode. And he had Hashirama's Sage Mode when he reacted to Tobirama.


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## Ghost (Jan 10, 2015)

Hashirama goes town on Akatsuki with Senpou: Shinsuusenju and massacres everyone except Obito who later gets overwhelmed by Hashirama's AoE and clones.


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## sabre320 (Jan 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Why do you think it would definitely trump regeneration?​



the nanobombs are smaller then cells and explode simultaneously destroying all the cells in the body leaving nothing to regenerate..


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 10, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Ah yes kami sama hashis clone has as much chakra as bsm naruto and bm minato...


absolutely correct according to manga statements.



> what you conveniently ignore is the fact that the main roots went after the bm duo while the tiny ones went after everyone else..


what are you talking about? 

the shinju utilized bigger branches to catch kurama because kurama is bigger than a normal person.
the branches that naruto was caught by are the same size as the branches that hashirama dodged.



> clone feinting Kakashi's clone holy shit bees faster too


kurama has more chakra than the hachibi. 

hashiramas chakra also dwarfs the hachibi.


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## Hachibi (Jan 10, 2015)

Saying Hashi's clone has equal chakra to BSM Naruto and BM Minato is equal to saying that Sasuke's BPS is only dangerous to 50% Kurama.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 10, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Saying Hashi's clone has equal chakra to BSM Naruto and BM Minato is equal to saying that Sasuke's BPS is only dangerous to 50% Kurama.



im not sure what you are trying to get at. this just seems like a kneejerk fallacious response. hashiramas clone stated that his chakra was comparable to the nine tails while they were combining their chakras.

you just want to act like the clone was for some reason talking about the original hashirama when this isnt supported.


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## Hachibi (Jan 10, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> im not sure what you are trying to get at. this just seems like a kneejerk fallacious response. hashiramas clone stated that his chakra was comparable to the nine tails while they were combining their chakras.
> 
> you just want to act like the clone was for some reason talking about the original hashirama when this isnt supported.



Because Madara was beating the clone while sitting on his ass while he was forced to use Mokuryu against BM Naruto?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 10, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Because Madara was beating the clone while sitting on his ass while he was forced to use Mokuryu against BM Naruto?



clone that madara beat=/=clone that stated that it could redirect 4 juubi bijudamas.


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## sabre320 (Jan 11, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> absolutely correct according to manga statements.
> 
> 
> what are you talking about?
> ...



what you coneniently ignore is bee is avoiding the branches are u gonna claim hes faster then bsm naruto?


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## sabre320 (Jan 11, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> im not sure what you are trying to get at. this just seems like a kneejerk fallacious response. hashiramas clone stated that his chakra was comparable to the nine tails while they were combining their chakras.
> 
> you just want to act like the clone was for some reason talking about the original hashirama when this isnt supported.



kami sama be reasonable for once do you really believe a mokubunshin has more chakra then the bsm naruto and bm minato....same bunshin who was casually owned by madara with v2 sussano sitting down.....hashirama said the kyuubis power is too great would he really say that if a mokubunshin was greater..


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## sabre320 (Jan 11, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Hashirama goes town on Akatsuki with Senpou: Shinsuusenju and massacres everyone except Obito who later gets overwhelmed by Hashirama's AoE and clones.



hashirama needs time to get into sage mode....why are u ignoring the fac that he has no knowledge on obito..while he is busy on the others obito can surprise hashi by sneaking next to him like against minato...first response of hashi is engaging him in taijutsu at 5meters and this happens..

kicking in
kicking in

unfortunately ftg isnt available..not to mention u mention clones while hashi is in sm his mokubunshin are not so obito knows where the real hashi is mokuton is not tagging him..


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 11, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Madara was able to sense Hashirama's chakra while everyone else was surprised that he came to the battlefield and he knew where Hashirama, Naruto and Sai were when he was blind.



Blind Madara absorbed Hashirama's sage energy to become a sensor.

He also had Hashirama's abilities to a lesser extent because he had his face on him.


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## Hachibi (Jan 11, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> clone that madara beat=/=clone that stated that it could redirect 4 juubi bijudamas.



Hashirama never stated he's gonna redirect the 4 Juubi Bijuudama


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## Dominus (Jan 11, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> He also had Hashirama's abilities to a lesser extent because he had his face on him.



I was thinking of that as well. He either had sensing when he was alive or gained it with Hashirama's cells, but he did have it before he acquired Sage Mode.



> Blind Madara absorbed Hashirama's sage energy to become a sensor.



He didn't have Sage Mode here yet he knew very well where all of them were.
[sp]
[/sp]

And here he sensed Hashirama was coming while most members the alliance were surprised he was there.
[sp]
[/sp]


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 11, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> what you coneniently ignore is bee is avoiding the branches are u gonna claim hes faster then bsm naruto?


the hachibi has less chakra than the ninetails or hashirama therefore the shinju didnt go after bee with as much tenacity as naruto and hashirama.


sabre320 said:


> kami sama be reasonable for once do you really believe a mokubunshin has more chakra then the bsm naruto and bm minato....same bunshin who was casually owned by madara with v2 sussano sitting down.....hashirama said the kyuubis power is too great would he really say that if a mokubunshin was greater..


dont give me a speech. hashiramas clone stated that the ninetails had comparable chakra to him while both yin and yang halfs melded their chakra together.
hashirama said that the kyuubis power is too great to let it roam free. that has nothing to do with how kurama compares to him.
hashiramas clone can indeed restrain biju.


Hachibi said:


> Hashirama never stated he's gonna redirect the 4 Juubi Bijuudama



he said that he would lead them to sea with jukai koutan


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## Hachibi (Jan 11, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> he said that he would lead them to sea with jukai koutan



>Implying a jutsu that got destroyed by Base Naruto powered-up by the Kyuubi is anywhere close a Juubidama


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 11, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >Implying a jutsu that got destroyed by Base Naruto powered-up by the Kyuubi is anywhere close a Juubidama



this is moot. hashirama stated that he was capable of leading the bijudama to sea.  

mass bijudama spam from the hachibi didnt even budge one of the juubis bijudamas. hashiramas clone stated that it was capable of redirecting 4 of them simultaneously.

if such a tactic was so laughable, obito wouldnt have put up the barrier.


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## Dominus (Jan 11, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> this is moot. hashirama stated that he was capable of leading the bijudama to sea.
> 
> mass bijudama spam from the hachibi didnt even budge one of the juubis bijudamas. hashiramas clone stated that it was capable of redirecting 4 of them simultaneously.
> 
> if such a tactic was so laughable, obito wouldnt have put up the barrier.



Hashirama said that he will use Mokuton to lead them to the sea, but he didn't say he will be the only one doing something, in fact he said *we* can change the trajectory, the *Hokage* will help and he told the *alliance members* to use Doton・Doryūheki. How does Hashirama using Mokuton, the alliance members using Doton and the Hokage helping imply that Hashirama's clone will do it alone?


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## Hachibi (Jan 11, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> this is moot.



How so?



> hashirama stated that he was capable of leading the bijudama to sea.



And Sakura said that she caught up to her team. Just because he say it doesn't mean its true.



> mass bijudama spam from the hachibi didnt even budge one of the juubis bijudamas.



That was a laser.



> hashiramas clone stated that it was capable of redirecting 4 of them simultaneously.



Again: Naruto said he is gonna win the war alone. Statement=/=fact

Also Obito put the Barrier to make sure the Juuidama doesn't miss their trajet.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 11, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Hashirama said that he will use Mokuton to lead them to the sea, but he didn't say he will be the only one doing something


hashiramas clone said that he would lead the bijudama to the sea, not anyone else, so if the other hokage were doing anything, they werent moving the bijudama.


> in fact he said *we* can change the trajectory, the *Hokage* will help and he told the *alliance members* to use Doton・Doryūheki. How does Hashirama using Mokuton, the alliance members using Doton and the Hokage helping imply that Hashirama's clone will do it alone?


hashirama said that he will use jukai koutan to lead the bijudama to the sea, so you can have the other hokage do anything but actually move the bijudama from the battlefield to the ocean.



Hachibi said:


> How so?


it doesnt disprove hashiramas ability to use jukai koutan to lead the 4 bijudama to sea.




> And Sakura said that she caught up to her team. Just because he say it doesn't mean its true.


just because minato said that juubi jin madara was stronger than juubi jin obito doesnt mean that its true.
just because hagoromo said that kaguya was stronger than him doesnt mean that its true.
lets see how far we can abuse this logic to weasel out of every manga statement.




> That was a laser.







> Also Obito put the Barrier to make sure the Juuidama doesn't miss their trajet.



_*Hashirama*: "I will lead them all into the sea with Jukai Koutan!"

*Obito*: "I wont let you."_
*puts up barrier*

he put up the barrier so hashirama didnt simply lead the bijudama away.


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## Dominus (Jan 11, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> hashiramas clone said that he would lead the bijudama to the sea, not anyone else, so if the other hokage were doing anything, they werent moving the bijudama.
> 
> hashirama said that he will use jukai koutan to lead the bijudama to the sea, so you can have the other hokage do anything but actually move the bijudama from the battlefield to the ocean.



He said "we can change the trajectory". There isn't much to discuss.

And I just checked now, he did say the Hokage will help in deviating it to the sea. He told the members of the alliance to use Doton and said that he will use Mokuton. And like I said in this and my previous post Hashirama said "we" so I don't know how can it get any clearer than that.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 11, 2015)

Dominus said:


> He said "we can change the trajectory". There isn't much to discuss.
> 
> And I just checked now, he did say the Hokage will help in deviating it to the sea. He told the members of the alliance to use Doton and said that he will use Mokuton. And like I said in this and my previous post Hashirama said "we" so I don't know how can it get any clearer than that.



"*I* will lead them to sea with Jukai Koutan".  this isnt debatable. only hashirama would be actually affecting the bijudamas movement.

the hokage can help change the trajectory, but they would not be moving the bijudama. hashirama would. 
you are showing a ridiculous amount of bias, so much in fact that you want to ignore that hashiramas clone stated that he would move the bijudama himself without mentioning any other hokage.


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## Dominus (Jan 11, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> "*I* will lead them to sea with Jukai Koutan".  this isnt debatable. only hashirama would be actually affecting the bijudamas movement.
> 
> the hokage can help change the trajectory, but they would not be moving the bijudama. hashirama would.
> you are showing a ridiculous amount of bias, so much in fact that you want to ignore that hashiramas clone stated that he would move the bijudama himself without mentioning any other hokage.



I'm pretty sure deviating it is the same as moving it. He first said we will change its trajectory which implies he won't do it alone, then he said the Hokage will help in deviating it which also implies he won't do it alone, then he told the others to use a Doton wall which guess what, yes, it also implies he won't do it alone. In how much more denial can you be?

Look, if for example, you and I were fighting someone and I said "you use the shuriken and I'll use the kunai to attack him", does that imply that only I'm going to attack? Even though I didn't say "use the shuriken to attack", but just "use the shuriken" it still implies we are both going to attack. It's the same with Hashirama and the alliance members who were supposed to use Doton. 

Is that so hard to understand?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 11, 2015)

Dominus said:


> I'm pretty sure deviating it is the same as moving it. He first said we will change its trajectory which implies he won't do it alone, then he said the Hokage will help in deviating it which also implies he won't do it alone, then he told the others to use a Doton wall which guess what, yes, it also implies he won't do it alone. In how much more denial can you be?



_*Clone Hash*: everyone, dont give up, Im here too for you!!
All we have to do is to deflect the balls from the courses. 
The hokages will take measures to flick them out to the sea!!. 
*Clone Hash*: You guys do the doton walls, will you.
*I ll send them up and guide to the sea with jukai-kotan(the nativity of forest world)! *
*obito*: I wont let you_


this isnt hard to understand. no matter what the other hokage were doing, hashirama alone would use jukai koutan and send all of the bijudama to the sea.


> Look, if for example, you and I were fighting someone and I said "you use the shuriken and I'll use the kunai to attack him", does that imply that only I'm going to attack? Even though I didn't say "use the shuriken to attack", but just "use the shuriken" it still implies we are both going to attack. It's the same with Hashirama and the alliance members who were supposed to use Doton.



-the alliance uses doton walls to slow down the bijudama.
-hashiramas clone sends the bijudama to the ocean with jukai koutan.


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## Dominus (Jan 11, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> _*Clone Hash*: everyone, dont give up, Im here too for you!!
> All we have to do is to deflect the balls from the courses.
> The hokages will take measures to flick them out to the sea!!.
> *Clone Hash*: You guys do the doton walls, will you.
> ...



He never said he would do it alone, he just said what jutsu he will be using to change its trajectory just like he said which jutsu the alliance members will be using and for the tenth time he also said the Hokage will be deviating it as well. Deviate = to change course. If it's Hashirama's clone, the alliance members and the Hokage changing its trajectory then why are you saying Hashirama's clone will do it alone. Even if the Doton wall is just for slowing it down it that means Hashirama won't do it alone and there are also the other Hokage who would also be deviating it.

Above all he said *we* will change its trajectory so why would he say we if he planned on doing it alone?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 14, 2015)

Dominus said:


> I was thinking of that as well. He either had sensing when he was alive or gained it with Hashirama's cells, but he did have it before he acquired Sage Mode.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You know, I completely wrote that page off as his obsession giving him Hashiradar.


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## sabre320 (Jan 15, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You know, I completely wrote that page off as his obsession giving him Hashiradar.



lol ya i could see that if he didnt catch sm naruto offguard


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## Raiken (Jan 15, 2015)

Is Pain included in the Akatsuki group?


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## sabre320 (Jan 15, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Is Pain included in the Akatsuki group?



yes he is and thats why believe people are being too fallacious with their arguments here hashirama blitzes from 500m ect...


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