# Adult MS obito vs minato



## Sufex (Jan 17, 2020)

who would win the ?

vs


Location: Same as their first fight
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: Obito's Flying Thunder God tag


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Split second affected the outcome of the last match.

If you think Obito's reactions have not improved since he was 14 years old, then the outcome remains the same for you.

Which means that the reasonable bunch will agree on adult Obito winning here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sufex (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Split second affected the outcome of the last match.
> 
> If you think Obito's reactions have not improved since he was 14 years old, then the outcome remains the same for you.
> 
> Which means that the reasonable bunch will agree on adult Obito winning here.


I love how you're always the first post in a minato thread


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## Hina uzumaki (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Split second affected the outcome of the last match.
> 
> If you think Obito's reactions have not improved since he was 14 years old, then the outcome remains the same for you.
> 
> Which means that the reasonable bunch will agree on adult Obito winning here.


Knowledge also played a factor against minato in the first match given that was the first time he encountered kamui wrap. 

OT..  Obito wins with izanagi( This is not as certain as well)

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hina uzumaki said:


> Knowledge also played a factor against minato in the first match given that was the first time he encountered kamui wrap.


The fight started after the Kamuil-warp failed, and he analyzed Kamui's mechanics pretty well right after that.

So he went into the fight with the same knowledge he has here.


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## PocketGod (Jan 17, 2020)

Obito should win, there's no way he hasn't gotten stronger. 

But then again you could make a case for Minato winning since now he doesn't have to worry about Kurama/the village. And Obito's mask is less cool than it used to be and he doesn't have those chains anymore.

Reactions: Like 2


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

PocketGod said:


> But then again you could make a case for Minato winning since now he doesn't have to worry about Kurama/the village


Nah, that's rather another point for Obito winning.

Controlling 100% Kurama who is the strongest bijuu is no easy task, as Minato himself mentions in their fight, so now with that weight lifted off his shoulders, he can finally focus 100% on Minato and use his Sharingan powers to full potential.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Architect (Jan 17, 2020)

It's either draw or win for Obito


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## Ren. (Jan 17, 2020)

Sufex said:


> who would win the ?
> 
> vs
> 
> ...


Minato high diffs.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Architect said:


> It's either draw or win for Obito


Curious, how does this end in a draw? 

Like Minato gets warped but Obito dies in the process or?


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## Hina uzumaki (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> The fight started after the Kamuil-warp failed, and he analyzed Kamui's mechanics pretty well right after that.
> 
> So he went into the fight with the same knowledge he has here.


You said only a split second was the difference then, which means adult obito wins, I say lack of knowledge was against minato then as well but not now. I think we can both agree obito can only win with izanagi here.


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## Architect (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Curious, how does this end in a draw?
> 
> Like Minato gets warped but Obito dies in the process or?


Minato escapes


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hina uzumaki said:


> You said only a split second was the difference then, which means adult obito wins, I say lack of knowledge was against minato then as well but not now. I think we can both agree obito can only win with izanagi here.


Minato has still the same knowledge he had in that fight.

He didn't learn anything new since then, as he died on the same day.

So it will go like it went last time, except this time Obito won't react the same way his 14y/o did and he will actually warp Minato in time.

So Izanagi isn't needed.


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## Hina uzumaki (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Minato has still the same knowledge he had in that fight.
> 
> He didn't learn anything new since then, as he died on the same day.
> 
> ...


Minato almost got wrapped because he had no knowledge, since he now has knowledge of obito's ability to suck people in, it won't go the same way as last time. He's going to utilize a different strategy. 

> Even if minato gets wrapped, he can still escape box land with FTG


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hina uzumaki said:


> Minato almost got wrapped because he had no knowledge, since he now has knowledge of obito's ability to suck people in, it won't go the same way as last time. He's going to utilize a different strategy.
> 
> > Even if minato gets wrapped, he can still escape box land with FTG


1) No, he got warped second time after that as well. Split second made the difference, when he teleported to the kunai behind Obito's back.

2) Proof FTG works & that Minato has enough chakra if it does, to warp interdimensionally ?


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## Hina uzumaki (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1) No, he got warped second time after that as well. Split second made the difference, when he teleported to the kunai behind Obito's back.


He did not get wrapped the second time, obito tried to grab hold of him in order to wrap him which he failed to do before minato teleported to the kunai behind obito. 


t0xeus said:


> 2) Proof FTG works & that Minato has enough chakra if it does, to warp interdimensionally ?



1.
*Spoiler*: _2nd databook_ 




*Flying Thunder God Technique (Hiraishin no Jutsu)*

Ninjutsu, S-rank, Supplementary, All Ranges
User: Fourth Hokage
_Flight across space and time_* completed in a flash-like instant!! Swiftness that surpasses Body flicker*


* 

2. *Obito's kamui dimension is not as vast as kaguya's which required massive amounts of chakra. Minato's chakra reserve is enough to teleport himself from kamui dimension.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hina uzumaki said:


> He did not get wrapped the second time, obito tried to grab hold of him in order to wrap him which he failed to do before minato teleported to the kunai behind obito.


Yes, that's what I said. 



Hina uzumaki said:


> *Spoiler*: _2nd databook_


This does not mean that he can use it across other dimensions.

It just describes how we've already seen FTG working - it can get you from point A to point B directly by cutting the space in between.



Hina uzumaki said:


> *2. *Obito's kamui dimension is not as vast as kaguya's which required massive amounts of chakra. Minato's chakra reserve is enough to teleport himself from kamui dimension.


It's not vast for Obito. Not in general.

Also proof Minato is close to Obito in chakra reserves?


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## Hina uzumaki (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Yes, that's what I said.


Ok then, so how does obito win? 



t0xeus said:


> This does not mean that he can use it across other dimensions.
> 
> It just describes how we've already seen FTG working - it can get you from point A to point B directly by cutting the space in between.


What do you think is between obito's dimension and the battlefield? 



t0xeus said:


> It's not vast for Obito. Not in general.
> 
> Also proof Minato is close to Obito in chakra reserves?


1. If kakashi's wack reserves can use kamui more than once, minato is definitely escaping. 

2.Minato had large chakra reserves, enough to  Gamabunta and  a tailed beast. He's also a perfect sage which requires at leaat above average chakra reserves.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hina uzumaki said:


> Ok then, so how does obito win?


As I've said - this time he puts his hand on Minato's shoulder quicker and manages to warp him, before Minato is able to warp to the kunai.

Minato said it's about split-second difference in reactions, so this time he is the one who reacts later.



Hina uzumaki said:


> What do you think is between obito's dimension and the battlefield?


Well, definitely not space, as you cannot "walk" to boxland but have to teleport there.



Hina uzumaki said:


> 1. If kakashi's wack reserves can use kamui more than once, minato is definitely escaping.


Kamui does not cost the same amount of chakra as FTG as that wasn't ever said or hinted at, so that is not really relevant.



Hina uzumaki said:


> 2.Minato had large chakra reserves, enough to  Gamabunta and  a tailed beast. He's also a perfect sage which requires at leaat above average chakra reserves.


Jiraiya has enough chakra to summon Bunta. Would you argue Jiraiya can spam FTG like Minato can? We don't know what is 'average' reserve so it's pointless to argue with the logic of having SM = being able to spam S/T.


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## Hina uzumaki (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> As I've said - this time he puts his hand on Minato's shoulder quicker and manages to warp him, before Minato is able to warp to the kunai.
> 
> 
> Minato said it's about split-second difference in reactions, so this time he is the one who reacts later.


Even if obito wraps him, minato escapes with FTG. He can now use clones to confuse obito's kamui. 



t0xeus said:


> Kamui does not cost the same amount of chakra as FTG as that wasn't ever said or hinted at, so that is not really relevant.


Since obito's kamui dimension isn't as vast as kaguya, minato can definitely teleport away from kamui dimension given his large chakra reserves. 


t0xeus said:


> Jiraiya has enough chakra to summon Bunta. Would you argue Jiraiya can spam FTG like Minato can? We don't know what is 'average' reserve so it's pointless to argue with the logic of having SM = being able to spam S/T.


If he knows how to use it and is efficient at using it, I don't see why not. Even fodders could use FTG.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hina uzumaki said:


> Even if obito wraps him, minato escapes with FTG. He can now use clones to confuse obito's kamui.


He used just 2 clones. How does that help him



Hina uzumaki said:


> Since obito's kamui dimension isn't as vast as kaguya, minato can definitely teleport away from kamui dimension given his large chakra reserves.


Again, Obito said it's not vast for him. An experienced Kamui user.

And you have yet to prove Minato has chakra reserves comparable to actual chakra beasts like Obito.

Being better than average fodder does not mean much when talking about S/T.



Hina uzumaki said:


> If he knows how to use it and is efficient at using it, I don't see why not. Even fodders could use FTG.


Yes, collectively as a unit of 3 people lol.


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## Draco Bolton (Jan 17, 2020)

Minato escaped the Kamui of Teen Obito (who at the same time had control over Perfect Kurama) by a billionth of a second. And Obito who underestimated the fact that Minato sensei uses FTG.

Adult Obito will not make the same mistakes and I think he is faster (17 years later). He also has Izanagi.

Obito mid diff.



Hina uzumaki said:


> > Even if minato gets wrapped, he can still escape box land with FTG




You lost your credibility with this sentence.

Obito is very confident in his Kamui even against Minato and everyone.

Kishimoto make Minato barely escape boxland. We've never seen anyone enter/exit boxland without Kamui.

Sasuke (when he was with Karin in boxland) with the reverse summon couldn't get out by himself and asked Obito to release him.

When the whole alliance received the Kyuubi chakra (because they had bits of it in them) for the massive FTG (to escape the Juubito barrier), Kakashi, who was in Kamui, also had Kyuubi chakra *but yet he was not teleported with the others. Evidence that FTG can't get out of Kamui.*

But yes yes Kishimoto proved FTG can escape Kamui (Kakashi even say Obito Kamui is a greater Jikūkan Ninjutsu than FTG).


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## Kannon (Jan 17, 2020)

Obito wins. Minato is overrated in the NBD.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

@Hussain 
Do you disagree with Draco's explanation for why Hiraishin won't get you out of Kamui? It sounds convincing to me.


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## Maverick04 (Jan 17, 2020)

Even though I'm more of a Minato fan, I don't think he can beat Adult Obito unless he's already tagged, which he isn't in this fight. Even against a 14 year old Obito, Minato barely managed to sneak in a win with FTG level 2. I'm pretty sure Obito's reflexes and mastery of Kamui increased from when he was 14 to his late 20s. Also he's quite crafty given how he baits his opponents with Kamui evident from his fight against Torune and Fuu. Plus he always has another Sharingan to rely on for Izanagi which Minato won't be expecting. Still would be high extreme diff


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## MaruUchiha (Jan 17, 2020)

Minato feared Kid MS Obito and admitted he won the match by a hair. Adult Obito has vastly improved, mastered Kamui, has Izanagi, and won't fall for the same trick twice. Adult Obito high diffs


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## Zembie (Jan 17, 2020)

Can go either way in my opinion, Obito has the edge with Izanagi but that doesn't really give him the W.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> @Hussain
> Do you disagree with Draco's explanation for why Hiraishin won't get you out of Kamui? It sounds convincing to me.


all of that post was awful. 
Hence the dislike... 

and yes, that includes the ability to get out of Kamui


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> all of that post was awful.
> Hence the dislike...
> 
> and yes, that includes the ability to get out of Kamui


But the points he raised make sense.  Why should FTG work from Boxland if the narrative goes against it like he pointed out?


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## Zembie (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> But the points he raised make sense.  Why should FTG work from Boxland if the narrative goes against it like he pointed out?


It doesn't. Both Obito and Sasuke have to open a literal space portal to teleport out of Kaguya's dimension. Can it be done with FTG? Maybe, but it will take a significant amount of chakra for Minato and Tobirama to do so.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> But the points he raised make sense.  Why should FTG work from Boxland if the narrative goes against it like he pointed out?


It doesn't as @Zembie has already pointed out, we have seen S/T users teleporting out of different dimensions. So, no reason
why Obito's case is different.

Saying "Well, X character was SURE Y is the case" is idiotic argument especially if we have seen it the other way around.
Obito was also SURE that he will get Kakashi, even after he had already seen Kakashi being able to get out on his own.

did Obito's belief take anything away from Kakashi's ability to get out? No, it didn't...

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Jan 17, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> You lost your credibility with this sentence.
> 
> Obito is very confident in his Kamui even against Minato and everyone.
> 
> ...


Thing is
- We don't know if Sasuke could reverse summon or not, beacause reverse summoning teleports them away and Sasuke knew Obito was an ally at that moment, and he wanted to kill Danzo, telporting to the hawk/snake land will have failed his attempt
- Kakashi lost the shroud when he got teleported in Kamui, and Naruto had to concentrate and gave everyone on the battelfied the mixed chakra of the yang and yin part of the fox

To be onest Obito is a bit reckless with kamui, he uses it aganist multiple opponents like he can inabilitate them with it, but when he sended Kakashi into kamui it backfired
And he was reckless with Minato, after he got tagged he lost, if Minato lived trough the fox he just had to telport a clone and kill him, but Obito decised to not continue the fight and retires, worst decision that worked only beacause Minato had to sacrifice himslef to seal Kurama
Minato refers the chakra cost of FTG to be proportinal to the size, he never mentions distance or chakra density (I think? At lest I'm pretty sure on the distance?) If this is true he could be able to teleport away, or even not, the point is that there is no proof that he can't teleport away, Obito had no way to know how FTG actually works so his assumption of Kamui gg seems to be baseless

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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

debating whether Minato can teleport outside of Kamui or not is irrelevant anyway. We have seen that Obito can't suck him, to begin with. 
it's useless to talk about something that will never happen... 

the whole "well Obito was 14 now he is 30, therefore he is faster " type of rubbish argument
is just the same desperate Obito's fanboys who have been saying that nonsense since he got his ass kicked.

Even after they were proven wrong time and time again, their butthurtness didn't go away 


Where was that extra Kamui speed when Obito was unable to teleport himself away from Asspulldara's Gedu-Damas,
where Minato did easily? 


I don't remember seeing Obito telling Asspulldara "bitch, I am 30+ years old my Kamui is so fast "
if someone has seen it, please enlighten us


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## Artistwannabe (Jan 17, 2020)

The dead don't improve.


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## Draco Bolton (Jan 17, 2020)

trocollo said:


> and Sasuke knew Obito was an ally at that moment


*Link Removed*

And this Sasuke doesn't have the personality of the nice doggy who has to wait for Obito to come home.

Reverse summon can't work in other dimension like that.

You all just need to look the SM Jiraya vs Animal Path example (I say SM, I know Base Jiraya job to Animal Path). He locked Animal Path in toad dimension. And finally Nagato was unable to bring him back (and obviously Nagato can use the summoning jutsu).



trocollo said:


> Kakashi lost the shroud when he got teleported in Kamui, and Naruto had to concentrate and gave everyone on the battelfied the mixed chakra of the yang and yin part of the fox


And a lot lost their shroud too. A lot lost their Kyuubi cloak and yet there were always parts of Kyuubi chakra inside them since Naruto used it.

Why would Kakashi have 0% of that chakra whereas all the rest of the alliance still have?



trocollo said:


> To be onest Obito is a bit reckless with kamui, he uses it aganist multiple opponents like he can inabilitate them with it, but when he sended Kakashi into kamui it backfired


And with Torune it failed


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed* *Link Removed*



No troll despite Obito being intangible against Fu.

Kakashi have the other Kamui and Obito wanted use him to destroy the seal on his heart. In chapter 629, he even said to Kakashi he should have killed him. To me that's suggest he want remove the seal even at this moment (Juubi was coming back).

Given Obito's confidence, that means his Kamui never betrayed him for over 17 years (except with Kakashi and other Kamui (coincidence ?)). What's the story interest in thinking that in fact a lot with adequate jutsu can run away from Kamui? What is the point of denying everything ?


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> Given Obito's confidence, that means his Kamui never betrayed him for over 17 years


he barely did anything in those 17 years, and was only staying in the shadows... 
it hard to fail him if he never fought anyone, or at least anyone of note 

unless you can tell us some names...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Draco Bolton (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> he barely did anything in those 17 years, and was only staying in the shadows...
> it hard to fail him if he never fought anyone, or at least anyone of note


Lmao someone who makes chaos in Kiri, rule the shadow of the world and so on... Do anything and never used Kamui with success.

Thinking Obito is doing nothing 

There are no names to give. But with your "if Obito doesn't absorb someone then he will never able to absorb them " logic.... that's the stupidest logic of all time.

Worse, you deny the example with Torune by saying it doesn't exist.

But coming from someone who says "MuH ObiTo f-fanboy" and at the same time really thinks Base Jiraya beats Juubito.

How can people get into a long debate with someone with that kind of logic?


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain and his evil twin are going at it


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> Lmao someone who makes chaos in Kiri, rule the shadow of the world and so on... Do anything and never used Kamui with success.


you know he controlled Yagura with his Genjutsu, not with his Kamui right? 
Also, the "bloody mist" was before he got butthurt over Rin, so we don't really know what he did when he controlled Yagura either. 



Draco Bolton said:


> There are no names to give. But with your "if Obito doesn't absorb someone then he will never able to absorb them " logic.... that's the stupidest logic of all time.


what the fuck does that even mean 



Draco Bolton said:


> Worse, you deny the example with Torune by saying it doesn't exist.


I never talked about Torune tho 



Draco Bolton said:


> But coming from someone who says "MuH ObiTo f-fanboy" and at the same time really thinks Base Jiraya beats Juubito.


I see you love pulling things out of your ass a lot. Please reevaluate...

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Jan 17, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> *Link Removed*
> 
> And this Sasuke doesn't have the personality of the nice doggy who has to wait for Obito to come home.


So you're saying that:
Sasuke didn't want to have nothing to do with Obito, so he tryed to use reverse summoning even if that would've compromised his mission to get Danzo, but he failed

Doesn't seem how things should go, Obito sided with him there and Sasuke had no hurry to escape from there if not to reach Danzo




Draco Bolton said:


> You all just need to look the SM Jiraya vs Animal Path example (I say SM, I know Base Jiraya job to Animal Path). He locked Animal Path in toad dimension. And finally Nagato was unable to bring him back (and obviously Nagato can use the summoning jutsu).


You mean when he sealed it in that thing? Madara also tryed to summon the fox but it was sealed inside Naruto so it didn't get out
And Sasuke's summon worked in another dimension, so at best you can say that Obito's one can be different




Draco Bolton said:


> And a lot lost their shroud too. A lot lost their Kyuubi cloak and yet there were always parts of Kyuubi chakra inside them since Naruto used it.
> 
> Why would Kakashi have 0% of that chakra whereas all the rest of the alliance still have?


Idk, but he didn't have it, he litterally lost it upon entering kamui, so:
- He could've lost all of it
- He didn't lost all of it but Naruto share thing didn't reach him




Draco Bolton said:


> And with Torune it failed
> 
> *Spoiler*: *Link Removed* *Link Removed*
> No troll despite Obito being intangible against Fu.
> ...


True it worked with Torune, then we say that Obito can teleport the ones he puts in kamui whenever he wants in his dimension but chose to teleport Kakashi where he was to he could use a raikiri on him?
Can work, but isn't a bit reckless? In fact he ended up with his head open for a raikiri to the face




Draco Bolton said:


> Given Obito's confidence, that means his Kamui never betrayed him for over 17 years (except with Kakashi and other Kamui (coincidence ?)). What's the story interest in thinking that in fact a lot with adequate jutsu can run away from Kamui? What is the point of denying everything ?


I'm just saying that you can't prove otherwise

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

Could go either way. It's a battle of split second timing and anticipation. Either combatant can win it.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Could go either way. It's a battle of split second timing and anticipation. Either combatant can win it.


That was the story of 14y/o Obito and Minato

Did nothing change since then?


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> That was the story of 14y/o Obito and Minato
> 
> Did nothing change since then?


Minato marked him as his own personal bitch, and then slashed him with a clone. 

otherwise, no Kamui's speed is the same. 

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed* 
*Link Removed* 






*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*





"30 years old "


rubbish


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Minato marked him as his own personal bitch, and then slashed him with a clone.
> 
> otherwise, no Kamui's speed is the same.
> 
> ...


Kamui is slower when trying to warp yourself, rather than warping something you're touching. That's what Konan told us.


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## blk (Jan 17, 2020)

Obito's Kamui feats are not particularly better than the ones he had as a teenager imo. 

And we have seen Minato FTG away from TSBs while Obito couldn't (with Kamui teleportation at least). So FTG and Minato's reactions are still > Kamui and Obito's reactions.

This match ends as it did in canon. 

Only chance is an Izanagi blindside, but Minato has sensing so that's also unlikely to happen


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Kamui is slower when trying to warp yourself, rather than warping something you're touching. That's what Konan told us.


it doesn't matter, Kamui is still not instant. So, still slower than Minato's FTG. 
As we have seen directly... 

if you can show us Obito's feat of getting Minato despite FTG, by all means, go ahead...


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> it doesn't matter, Kamui is still not instant. So, still slower than Minato's FTG.
> As we have seen directly...
> 
> if you can show us Obito's feat of getting Minato despite FTG, by all means, go ahead...


FTG is not instant either, Minato has to mentally react and knead chakra for it


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> FTG is not instant either,


but it is... 



t0xeus said:


> Minato has to mentally react and knead chakra for it


altho that has nothing to do with the jutsu itself, it's still irrelevant. We know he can and he did...


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> That was the story of 14y/o Obito and Minato
> 
> Did nothing change since then?



Sure. 

Obito got better which is why it goes from a Minato win to 50/50.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> but it is...
> 
> 
> altho that has nothing to do with the jutsu itself, it's still irrelevant. We know he can and he did...


Huh

Activation of the jutsu has nothing to do with the jutsu?


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Sure.
> 
> Obito got better which is why it goes from a Minato win to 50/50.


So what was it before?

100/0 ?


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Huh
> 
> Activation of the jutsu has nothing to do with the jutsu?


stop dodging the question, and show us Obito's feats.

Thank you.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> So what was it before?
> 
> 100/0 ?



It was Minato winning. 

Which isn't my answer here.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> stop dodging the question, and show us Obito's feats.
> 
> Thank you.


Feats of what exactly?

His Kamui being a threat against FTG?

We've seen that already when Minato said 'split-second difference will decide this fight'.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> It was Minato winning.
> 
> Which isn't my answer here.


You know a 50/50 fight can still result in a win in the manga..


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> We've seen that already when Minato said 'split-second difference will decide this fight'.


ok, show us this split-second improvement.

Thank you.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> ok, show us this split-second improvement.
> 
> Thank you.


Ok so you agree that if Obito has gotten better in reaction speed by a split-second, he wins?


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> You know a 50/50 fight can still result in a win in the manga..



It can but that fight wasn't 50/50.

Minato was heavily disadvantaged with no knowledge and sneak attacked and still pulled out the W. 

That indicates to me Minato was still superior to Obito at that time. 

Now that they are peers in a more straight up fight I see it as 50/50.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Ok so you agree that if Obito has gotten better in reaction speed by a split-second, he wins?


Not really. 
it's not different than those overdramatic statements for "hype" just like Kankoro or whoever it was stated
that the trap division that wins will decide the outcome of the war. 

meanwhile, it had no lasting effect whatsoever and was completely irrelevant... 

I also think it has more to do with Minato's ignorance of what will happen if he were to ever get sucked in. 


Edit:

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*





we know how that went


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> It can but that fight wasn't 50/50.
> 
> Minato was heavily disadvantaged with no knowledge and sneak attacked and still pulled out the W.
> 
> ...


Was Obito not disadvantaged as well with just as serious handicap of controlling the strongest bijuu during the fight?


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Not really.
> it's not different than those overdramatic statements for "hype" just like Kankoro or whoever it was stated
> that the trap division that wins will decide the outcome of the war.
> 
> ...


Fair enough 

But I don't think you can laugh at someone for taking it seriously

It's Minato who is saying it, and it was not contradicted, so those who believe it are not at wrong


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> and it was not contradicted,


it was before the statement was even made. 
like we literally saw Obito catching Minato and failed to suck him in.

So how was that not a contradiction?


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> it was before the statement was even made.
> like we literally saw Obito catching Minato and failed to suck him in.
> 
> So how was that not a contradiction?


Obito did not warp him as soon as they touched

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Obito did not warp him as soon as they touched
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Minato didn't try to use FTG as soon as they touched either.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Minato didn't try to use FTG as soon as they touched either.


Seems like he tried to and failed, which is why they both ended at the conclusion that if Obito warps Minato as soon as they touch - Minato won't get away


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Seems like he tried to and failed,


where? please do highlight the panel. Thank you


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Was Obito not disadvantaged as well with just as serious handicap of controlling the strongest bijuu during the fight?



Does he control Kyuubi with Kamui?

I would say he wasn't disadvantaged. Looks like Obito just sent Kyuubi off to rampage and not take any specific action. So I can't see how that handicaps him in this type of encounter.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> where? please do highlight the panel. Thank you


You're kinda implying that Minato is retarded here

Obito catches Minato's hand, waits a bit, then tries to warp him. Minato manages to get away at the last possible second.

Obito then explains to the reader that it happened only because he did not warp him straight after touching.

Minato reconfirms this by saying he can still lose if he reacts split-second slower than Obito.

And according to you what we're supposed to take away from this is that Obito can never warp Minato before Minato FTGs away? Doesn't make sense AT ALL.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Does he control Kyuubi with Kamui?
> 
> I would say he wasn't disadvantaged. Looks like Obito just sent Kyuubi off to rampage and not take any specific action. So I can't see how that handicaps him in this type of encounter.


How do you send entrapped enemy to 'rampage'? I didn't know genjutsu works like that.  I thought it's about controlling enemy's actions. Not changing their mindset or whatever.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> How do you send entrapped enemy to 'rampage'? I didn't know genjutsu works like that.  I thought it's about controlling enemy's actions. Not changing their mindset or whatever.



Gave him a command to destroy the village?

Obito showed no signs of actively controlling or communicating with the Kyuubi therefore we don't assume he was.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> You're kinda implying that Minato is retarded here
> 
> Obito catches Minato's hand, waits a bit, then tries to warp him. Minato manages to get away at the last possible second.
> 
> ...



I think you are implying Obito is retarded. He caught Minato, but didn't use Kamui right away.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Gave him a command to destroy the village?
> 
> Obito showed no signs of actively controlling or communicating with the Kyuubi therefore we don't assume he was.


So why does controlled Kurama then have lag on its reactions?


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## Draco Bolton (Jan 17, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Sasuke didn't want to have nothing to do with Obito, so he tryed to use reverse summoning even if that would've compromised his mission to get Danzo, but he failed



Why would that compromise his mission ? Once he got out of Kamui, he would've gone after Danzo. No need Obito to search Danzo. And how could he know that Obito would lead him right to Danzo by taking him out?



trocollo said:


> You mean when he sealed it in that thing?


Animal was still locked inside that world and still hurted SM Jiraya.

Why that would be a seal ?  And not Kamui.

Kamui would be far less effective than seals, is that what you all are trying to prove?

To enter/exit the toad world, you have to go through the canteen toad.

To enter/exit the Kamui world, you must pass through the eye that has Obito's Mangeyko.



trocollo said:


> And Sasuke's summon worked in another dimension, so at best you can say that Obito's one can be different


Kaguya worlds are just very far away:



I know Sasuke used Summon in Lava world but here:

*Link Removed*
Everything failed.

About boxland/Kaguya dimension differences, go on this topic: 

Do you agree with the member Dano ?

I think Kamui is also parallel dimension and you only need Kamui to enter/exit like I said above.



trocollo said:


> - He could've lost all of it
> - He didn't lost all of it but Naruto share thing didn't reach him


Kakashi the only one in the whole alliance to lost all of it ? It's a nice and wonderful coincidence to support your theory.

If Naruto share can't reach him (I thought someone talk to me about that and I had already thought of that) then that's proves Kamui is really out of reach.

Why look for excuses and then justify Naruto's link doesn't reach Kamui but FTG can reach it? I wish Minato had stepped in and teleported himself between Kakashi and Obito in their duel in boxland. It would have been badass. He should have done that right away once the Kages were allowed to join the war. Orochimaru said Madara was the origin of the war. Minato thinks that Masked Man=Madara. Minato marked Masked Man. Normally he would have teleported to Obito's mark right away.



trocollo said:


> True it worked with Torune, then we say that Obito can teleport the ones he puts in kamui whenever he wants in his dimension but chose to teleport Kakashi where he was to he could use a raikiri on him?
> Can work, but isn't a bit reckless? In fact he ended up with his head open for a raikiri to the face


Yes Obito would have done better not to show his head (but Kakashi's first punch on his chest (which he should have aimed with chidori to destroy the heart) put him in a state that forced him to use Kamui on his head to avoid Naruto's second punch, which he should have physically dodged in the real world if he wasn't in pain after Kakashi first punch. ) but with what I'm saying, I'm trying to make everything fit between the Torune case and the Kakashi case (who has the other Kamui and whom Obito wanted to use to pierce him). Because here with the reasoning you're doing, it looks like you want to look for inconsistencies. It's not the good way of thinking.

Once again what's the story interest in thinking that in fact a lot with adequate jutsu can run away from Kamui?

Minato barely escaped absorption in boxland. But in the end even captured in it he could have escaped, it's completely ridiculous and a wet firecracker scenarilly.

It's exactly like saying that Juubito couldn't actually have thrown the Mugen Tsukiyomi because he isn't a Indra no Tensei and that in the end it would have been a flop.

It's mental acrobatics to try to justify that in fact there was no suspense and that it wasn't tight (although Minato said that the masked man was dangerous).

We can rewrite everything just like that.


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## t0xeus (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> I think you are implying Obito is retarded. He caught Minato, but didn't use Kamui right away.


Yes, it was a mistake that backfired. It was a retarded decision and he acknowledges that.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> I think you are implying Obito is retarded. He caught Minato, but didn't use Kamui right away.



Fairly standard. Most peeps would rather believe;

Character is retarded>>>>>Admitting you were wrong

Every time.

Every

Single

Time


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> So why does controlled Kurama then have lag on its reactions?



Madara is riding him like a horse? In this case Madara is taking action via Kyuubi, vs influencing Kyuubi to take it's own action in the manner you outline.

There is direct control and influence. Direct control is a second layer of command. Influence allows the victim to take their own chosen actions.


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## Devil_Jin (Jan 17, 2020)

It could go either way . Neither obito is fast enough to wrap nor he is gonna fall for the same style of attack again. They will be going back and forth until someone messes up or obito outlasts

Though minato can use the amped reflexes of SM to catch obito off-guard again


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## Devil_Jin (Jan 17, 2020)

@Hussain Interested in what you think tbh

Give me more than the optimistic rating


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## Marvel (Jan 17, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> The dead don't improve.


He did actually,he got KCM. And IIRC those sealed fight for eternity in the reaper's stomach. So there's no reason why he wouldn't improve.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

Amirsh said:


> @Hussain Interested in what you think tbh
> 
> Give me more than the optimistic rating



What makes you think Minato will use the exact same way he did exactly? 
and even if he did, if Obito's Kamui is not fast enough, then it's not fast enough. What can he do about it?


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## Artistwannabe (Jan 17, 2020)

Marvel said:


> He did actually,he got KCM. And IIRC those sealed fight for eternity in the reaper's stomach. So there's no reason why he wouldn't improve.


Fuck me


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## Artistwannabe (Jan 17, 2020)

Marvel said:


>


No I didn't mean it like that


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## Marvel (Jan 17, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> No I didn't mean it like that


Don't want to be a cognitos.



and I'm straight too.


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## trocollo (Jan 17, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> Why would that compromise his mission ? Once he got out of Kamui, he would've gone after Danzo. No need Obito to search Danzo. And how could he know that Obito would lead him right to Danzo by taking him out?


Beacause reverse summoning brings him to the place where the summon is, how should he return at the summit after that?



Draco Bolton said:


> Animal was still locked inside that world and still hurted SM Jiraya.
> 
> Why that would be a seal ? And not Kamui.
> 
> ...


No wait so you mean that barrier?
Didn't Jiraiya put him in a toad or something that later the leaf got so they could examine the body?
What's a canteen toad?

More like I was thinking of something, do you think that the Kamui dimension is created everytime Obito activates his MS and then destroyed after he puts it back in his 3T shape? (After all the dimension seems to be in his eye) If that's true he can destroy people just like that




Draco Bolton said:


> Kaguya worlds are just very far away:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're right I but there is always the same problem of the desummoning that will telport him too away from Naruto




Draco Bolton said:


> About boxland/Kaguya dimension differences, go on this topic:
> 
> Do you agree with the member Dano ?
> 
> I think Kamui is also parallel dimension and you only need Kamui to enter/exit like I said above.


I don't know if I agree with him, a better explanation of kamui would've cleared the supposistions
Anyway, why if a dimension is a parallel one you need a unique special ability to exit it, but if it's some other kind of dimension then whatever S/T jutsu does the job? What property differentiates the parallel dimensions in this?
If you just want to just argue that Obito's one is different for the Kaguya one's, sure, what I'm saying is that this isn't a proof of the fact that FTG wouldn't work there




Draco Bolton said:


> Kakashi the only one in the whole alliance to lost all of it ? It's a nice and wonderful coincidence to support your theory


I didn't mean in a casual way but with the teleportation, like hasn't he the shroud on and then it vanishes without Kakashi using jutsu or such?



Draco Bolton said:


> If Naruto share can't reach him (I thought someone talk to me about that and I had already thought of that) then that's proves Kamui is really out of reach.
> 
> Why look for excuses and then justify Naruto's link doesn't reach Kamui but FTG can reach it?


Naruto's link is different from FTG, Tobirama explained he had to resonate the clones, and there was no portal open for kamui so Naruto couldn't send his chakra there




Draco Bolton said:


> I wish Minato had stepped in and teleported himself between Kakashi and Obito in their duel in boxland. It would have been badass. He should have done that right away once the Kages were allowed to join the war. Orochimaru said Madara was the origin of the war. Minato thinks that Masked Man=Madara. Minato marked Masked Man. Normally he would have teleported to Obito's mark right away.


Whoa sure, seems cool, still he had to save the alliance and then they fought against the ten tails and such, so he had his things keeping him occupied




Draco Bolton said:


> Yes Obito would have done better not to show his head (but Kakashi's first punch on his chest (which he should have aimed with chidori to destroy the heart) put him in a state that forced him to use Kamui on his head to avoid Naruto's second punch, which he should have physically dodged in the real world if he wasn't in pain after Kakashi first punch. ) but with what I'm saying, I'm trying to make everything fit between the Torune case and the Kakashi case (who has the other Kamui and whom Obito wanted to use to pierce him). Because here with the reasoning you're doing, it looks like you want to look for inconsistencies. It's not the good way of thinking.
> 
> Once again what's the story interest in thinking that in fact a lot with adequate jutsu can run away from Kamui?
> 
> ...


But even like this, we can say that Obito can chose where to send the people that he brings in kamui-land and still we have to also say that FTG doesn't work to escape it, at this point woudn't work better what I said earlyer on deactivating his MS to destroy the kamui dimension?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Devil_Jin (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> What makes you think Minato will use the exact same way he did exactly?
> and even if he did, if Obito's Kamui is not fast enough, then it's not fast enough. What can he do about it?


I didn't really. It's actually the opposite ,Minato knows that adult obito has knowledge of FTG2 so he won't go for same frontal kunai throw through the head. I was just pointing it out that it won't go like the first time and both characters need to be a lot more crafty with their arsenal 

And for the second question, a suprise attack( with izanagi perhaps ) and an instant attempt for wraping minato without wasting time can get him.  And with hashi cells he can possibly outlast too.

Still with the remarkable physical amp and sensing of SM minato can pull it off but overall I'm not confident on how the battle will exactly go


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

Amirsh said:


> I didn't really. It's actually the opposite ,Minato knows that adult obito has knowledge of FTG2 so he won't go for same frontal kunai throw through the head. I was just pointing it out that it won't go like the first time and both characters need to be a lot more crafty with their arsenal


fair enough



Amirsh said:


> And for the second question, a suprise attack( with izanagi perhaps ) and an instant attempt for wraping minato without wasting time can get him. And with hashi cells he can possibly outlast too.


Minato is a sensor. What extra advantage does Izanagi give to Obito that he didn't have when he sneaked up on Minato the first time? 


and what if Minato uses clones this time as well?


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## Devil_Jin (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> fair enough
> 
> 
> Minato is a sensor. What extra advantage does Izanagi give to Obito that he didn't have when he sneaked up on Minato the first time?
> ...


The relief to his opponent of his certain victory and obito's death. It creates a lot better circumstances for a sneak attack. 

And the clone thing is plausible too


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## Hasan (Jan 17, 2020)

Obito will negate all attacks, while Minato will jump the instant his attacks are negated, so at worst, it's a cat chasing mouse until the mouse gets tired and warped.



Hina uzumaki said:


> Even if minato gets wrapped, he can still escape box land with FTG


He won't.

This is Kaguya's Timespace, which Obito hijacked—and he was able to do so, because Kamui's mechanics are similar to Yomotsu Hirasaka. It just doesn't look like a boxland:




He basically _tuned_ Kamui, so when he makes the jump, he isn't actually entering the boxland, but that. And doing that requires a hefty amount of chakra, because that's not his Timespace. Hiraishin/Kuchiyose hasn't shown this kind of flexibility. Those places such as the Ice one are described as "Sphere Spaces", according to takL.



t0xeus said:


> Obito catches Minato's hand, *pronounces victory*, then tries to warp him. .


Slight correction. He pre-empted Kamui, when Obito made that pronouncement. Look at the _handseal_ for Hiraishin (highlighted), which is even indicated in the second panel. That is, by the time Obito used Kamui, he had already used Hiraishin...


It's showing the relative speed of Hiraishin's jump and Kamui's warp, when Hiraishin has a headstart. This is why their battle boiled down to a _split-second _difference.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Beacause reverse summoning brings him to the place where the summon is, how should he return at the summit after that?
> 
> 
> No wait so you mean that barrier?
> ...



Just want to speculate on the FTG interaction with Kamui.

We have seen summons into an alternate dimension, so I would believe summoning can work in boxland. It's a logical fit.

However - the argument against FTG out of kamui may hinge on whether Minato can "see" his markers or not. It is possible that he can't see these in boxland.

While summing and FTG are based on a similar principle there is a distinct difference. Animal summons arrive to the summoners position at the summoners behest. The animal summon doesn't need to know where the summoner is, they just appear to the summoner.

With FTG Minato needs to choose his marker, implying he needs to know where they are. If he can't "see" them across dimensions he can't know where they are.

One summoning technique requires no spatial knowledge or location, FTG implicitly does.

This is just my speculation of course.


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## Bonly (Jan 17, 2020)

It'll go the same as last time more or less with each of them avoiding each other's attack with their S/T jutsu and it'll come down to speed upon which Minato will win with a trick via Hiraishin again, it's just a matter of it being a longer match this time around


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

Hasan said:


> Slight correction. He pre-empted Kamui, when Obito made that pronouncement. Look at the _handseal_ for Hiraishin (highlighted), which is even indicated in the second panel. That is, by the time Obito used Kamui, he had already used Hiraishin...
> 
> 
> It's showing the relative speed of Hiraishin's jump and Kamui's warp, when Hiraishin has a headstart. This is why their battle boiled down to a _split-second _difference.



That would actually qualify as _simultaneous_ not FTG headstart.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

Amirsh said:


> The relief to his opponent of his certain victory and obito's death. It creates a lot better circumstances for a sneak attack.
> 
> And the clone thing is plausible too


Don't see how is that different. Minato didn't know Obito was going to teleport behind him or whatever. So, it's not like he had his guard up during that time either.

if Obito were to appear behind him, he will still sense him and react accordingly. Izanagi, at best, will only delay the inevitable.
Obito will still kiss the ground sooner or later, all of his abilities are useless here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hasan (Jan 17, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> That would actually qualify as _simultaneous_ not FTG headstart.


Well, no, since no motion is indicated.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

Hasan said:


> Well, no, since no motion is indicated.



How did you determine from a static panel of Minato"s handsign and Kamui activation that FTG got a headstart?

That's nonsense. This is the textbook definition of simultaneous. 

The point of the scene is to show how fast Minato is via FTG. Would make zero sense to promote his speed _ by giving him a headstart_.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

Hasan's reaching never gets old... 

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*



oh look on that first panel, Minato's 2 fingers are next to each other, must have been FTG...


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## Hasan (Jan 17, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> How did you determine from a static panel of Minato"s handsign and Kamui activation that FTG got a headstart?
> 
> That's nonsense. This is the textbook definition of simultaneous.


Uh, by reading the _entire _scene? Why do you think Obito says that next time, he will warp the _instant_ he makes contact, and why does Minato _after_ _escaping Kamui_ says _whoever strikes the split-second earlier will win_?

Those may be static pages_,_ but Kishimoto clearly indicates movements and sounds using the SFX. Look to the page that Hussain posted, where he forms the seals for his Timespace Barrier. Here's another, random quick search [*Link Removed*].



> *The point of the scene is to show how fast Minato is via FTG*. Would make zero sense to promote his speed _ by giving him a headstart_.


Indeed, it is, which is what Obito said: _"He flew again... He's fast... Next time, I will warp him the instant I will lay my hand upon him".
_


Hussain said:


> Hasan's reaching never gets old...
> 
> *Spoiler*: _1_
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

that's not even the same sign 
the pic you posted had the fingers separated. What else is he supposed to do with them? Through them away
so you wouldn't get so delusional?


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## Hasan (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> that's not even the same sign
> *the pic you posted had the fingers separated*. What else is he supposed to do with them? Through them away
> so you wouldn't get so delusional?


And? Barely! Look who's the one reaching?


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

Hasan said:


> Uh, by reading the _entire _scene? Why do you think Obito says that next time, he will warp the _instant_ he makes contact, and why does Minato _after_ _escaping Kamui_ says _whoever strikes the split-second earlier will win_?



Neither of these things have anything to do with FTG and kamui activating simultaneously.

In fact what you say reinforces it. Simultaneously is at the same time. Striking * first is not. *

When Obito decides he has to strike first it because * simultaneously won't cut it*. 




> Those may be static pages_,_



Whoooooosh

Way to miss the point which is the fact that you * arbitrarily decided FTG had a headstart with zero evidence. *


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2020)

Hasan said:


> And? Barely! Look who's the one reaching?


you, obviously. 

you are using the generic sign (which isn't even always the case to use FTG to begin with) 
and then bringing a pic of a hand with fingers to say "oh look he is using X jutsu" you couldn't get more desperate if you tried 

I guess you think Minato is using FTG 24/7 because he had fingers...


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## Hina uzumaki (Jan 17, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> No I didn't mean it like that


Let him out maru


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## Hasan (Jan 17, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Whoooooosh
> 
> Way to miss the point which is the fact that you * arbitrarily decided FTG had a headstart with zero evidence. *


A _typical_ ShinAkuma response indicated by cutting off the post. If it was _simultaneous_, then Kishimoto would have indicated the motion by adding an SFX next to the fingers, as he always does when the character is making a motion or a sound in _real time. _Neither _simultaneous_ nor the so-called 'midwarp escape' is consistent with what immediately followed. Obito believed that it was delay on his part in _activating Kamui_ that allowed Minato to escape. If it was simultaneous, then Minato wouldn't have said that Obito would win if the latter struck first... because the moment Obito would have struck, Minato would have jumped again to safety... because he _already_ did (even assuming simultaneous use), so the only workable option is that he activated Hiraishin in the miniscule delay that Obito caused. Lo and behold! The _visuals_ just happen to match, the scene is salvaged and Obito fans go home happy that they didn't need to introduce a contradiction in someone else's work.



Hussain said:


> you are using the generic sign


That is _clearly_ cutting through the warp, when his _fingers_ should be distorted. Almost looks like the author is providing a visual cue, as to _how_ the event —accompanied by proper dialogue—should be read.



> (which isn't even always the case to use FTG to begin with)


Same goes for _majority_ of other techniques. How else would you, working as an artist on a 2D medium would try to capture the _illusion_ _of time_? Who am I kidding—you're amongst those who think that Minato _flicked_ the kunai, when he clearly didn't (and it's more impressive in the manga, but that's beside the point).

I'll cut my discussion with you _short_ though. I have explained this many times, and in much more detail in the past. The _bottom line_ is you lose no matter what _perspective_ you bring to explain this event. The only difference is that I am assuming consistency, while you are arguing a _contradiction_. That is, you're saying that Kishimoto first drew Minato escaping Kamui, and then immediately after went: _Nah!_ _Kamui works_. An instant retcon, so the Minato escaping Kamui is rendered void, thus can't be brought up as an argument.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

Hasan said:


> A _typical_ ShinAkuma response indicated by cutting off the post.



Of course.

You should know by now that I don't deal with* fanfiction*.

Case in point.



> If it was _simultaneous_, then Kishimoto would have indicated



He did. We are shown kamui activation and FTG _ on the same panel_.

Textbook definition simultaneous.

We don't need some super secret Hasan approved mental gymnastics.



> Obito believed that it was delay on his part in _activating Kamui_ that allowed Minato to escape. If it was simultaneous, then Minato wouldn't have said that Obito would win if the latter struck first...



Striking FIRST is not SIMULTANEOUS.

This premise is stillborn because it makes no sense out of the gate.

You can't argue that they did not strike simultaneous because they both thought the first to strike would win.

Do you even read what you post?



> because the moment Obito would have struck, Minato would have jumped again to safety...



You can't even get your argument straight?

Saying Minato can jump the moment Obito attacks is saying MINATO CAN FTG IN REACTION TO KAMUI.

Can't wait for the back flips on this one.



> because he _already_ did (even assuming simultaneous use), so the only workable option is that he activated Hiraishin in the miniscule delay that Obito caused. Lo and behold! The _visuals_ just happen to match, the scene is salvaged and Obito fans go home happy that they didn't need to introduce a contradiction in someone else's work.



Hey I got a better idea.

How about we go with what the panels and narrative indicates? You know those panels that show the reader simultaneous activation? You know the narrative that tells us *Minato is fast* proving his reaction speed not his *head start*. 

I know the actual canon does't contain your super secret Hasan approved headcanon indicators, but let's be real here - nobody cares about that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hasan (Jan 17, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> He did. We are shown kamui activation and FTG _ on the same panel_.
> 
> Textbook definition simultaneous.
> 
> We don't need some super secret Hasan approved mental gymnastics.


_No._ Kamui is activat*ing *on that panel. Hiraishin is activat*ed.* Look at _these_ panels, and numerous others yourself:
*
*

All four are _motioning_ their hands, and it's clearly indicated with the SFXs _FSH/VSH._ Now repost that page, and point out _where_ has the author indicated that it's _simultaneous_? If there's an SFX, then it would seal the deal that it's _simultaneous_. It's not mental gymnastics when you demonstrate sheer ignorance of how the manga is even produced. These kind of details are all over the place. The rest of the discussion is redundant, but I'll address this one bit:



> Striking FIRST is not SIMULTANEOUS.
> 
> This premise is stillborn because it makes no sense out of the gate.
> 
> ...


Yes, I do. Which is why I said the two panels depicted the relative speed of _*Hiraishin's*_ _jump_ and _*Kamui's*_ _warp, _when _*Hiraishin*_ had a slight headstart.

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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

Hasan said:


> _No._ Kamui is activat*ing *on that panel. Hiraishin is activat*ed.* Look at _these_ panels, and numerous others yourself:



Kamui is activated as well hence *the kamui effect.*

That doesn't happen without *activating Kamui*



FTG is also *activating* because Minato is still *on panel* indicating FTG has not yet finished activating.

Further proving *simultaneous*.

Funny how that works out.



> Yes, I do. Which is why I said the two panels depicted the relative speed of _*Hiraishin's*_ _jump_ and _*Kamui's*_ _warp, _when _*Hiraishin*_ had a slight headstart.



Let's try this again.

The idea that one must strike first to win is not disproven by each of them striking simultaneously because simultaneous and first are NOT THE SAME THING.

First is still faster than THE SAME TIME.

Your logic is garbage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 17, 2020)

Minato should win similarly.

He’s faster it’s only a matter of time before Obito gets caught and tagged.

The kage bunshin retcon hurt his chances more, with multiple Minato on the field there’s a slim chance of Obito ever touching him before being tagged.

Additionally because Obito is fighting Minato he’s at a disadvantage from the jump, without Rikudo powers he knows he’s weaker and that will affect his fighting, as it did in the first battle where he inexplicably forgot about Minato’s signature technique.  is a  and that will affect his performance against specific characters such as Itachi and Minato who he personally feared and thought could kill him, which is why he attempted assassinating Minato while the kyuubi was attacking him, and why he outright claimed Itachi would’ve killed him despite the fact the reader knew Itachi couldn’t.

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## Hasan (Jan 17, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Kamui is activated as well hence *the kamui effect.*
> 
> That doesn't happen without *activating Kamui*
> 
> ...


Re-read my response to Hussain above. How will you capture the _illusion_ _of time_ on a 2D medium? You realize that you can _visually_ depict teleportation using slow motion? Kishimoto captured blazingly fast movements in Minato vs. Raikage and Kakashi vs. Mazou on _static_ pages. You aren't arguing anything—I already made the point that the two panels are showing the two techniques _in effect_... The fact that Minato barely managed because Obito caused a slight delay... I am asking you to connect the idea of the simultaneous use to *Obito *causing delay. I will explain this below:



> Let's try this again.
> 
> The idea that one must strike first to win is not disproven by each of them striking simultaneously because simultaneous and first are NOT THE SAME THING.
> 
> ...


Let's try this _again_—If _*Minato*_ is perfectly capable of timing his attack against a *Kamui *warp, then it doesn't matter *when *Obito uses Kamui, because Minato will *always* escape. Obito can strike first all he wants, it matters naught if Minato has already shown that he can time his Hiraishin against _*Kamui*_ warp—which makes their battle _redundant_. Obito didn't say that he would *speed*_ *up the warp*_. He said, he would warp _*instantly upon making contact, *_which makes abundantly clear that he's chalking Minato's escape to whatever delay he caused in *activating Kamui, *which in turn is a dead giveaway that Minato used Hiraishin *first *in this miniscule time-window. Since Kamui itself is very fast, you see it materialize to an effect. Hence, the depiction of speed, and their battle boiling down to a _split-second _difference.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

Hasan said:


> Re-read my response to Hussain above. How will you capture the _illusion_ _of time_ on a 2D medium? You realize that you can _visually_ depict teleportation using slow motion? Kishimoto captured blazingly fast movements in Minato vs. Raikage and Kakashi vs. Mazou on _static_ pages. You aren't arguing anything—I already made the point that the two panels are showing the two techniques _in effect_... The fact that Minato barely managed because Obito caused a slight delay... I am asking you to connect the idea of the simultaneous use to *Obito *causing delay. I will explain this below:



Obito didn't activate immediately, allowing Minato to activate simultaneously, *as we are shown*.

Fanfiction is not required.

In fact one could argue Minato activated after kamui as he hasn't completed the FTG handsign in the panel *you posted*.




> Let's try this _again_—If _*Minato*_ is perfectly capable of timing his attack against a *Kamui *warp, then it doesn't matter *when *Obito uses Kamui, because Minato will *always* escape.



No.

The manga *tells us the first strike wins.*

For some reason you keep making this garbage tier argument, so let me help you out.

*si·mul·ta·ne·ous
/ˌsīməlˈtānēəs/*

_adjective_

occurring, operating, or done at the same time.

*first
/fərst/*

_number_

1.
coming before all others in time or order; earliest; 1st.




> Obito can strike first all he wants,



No.

He who strikes first wins per canon.



> it matters naught if Minato has already shown that he can time his Hiraishin against _*Kamui*_ warp—which makes their battle _redundant_. Obito didn't say that he would *speed*_ *up the warp*_. He said, he would warp _*instantly upon making contact, *_which makes abundantly clear that he's chalking Minato's escape to whatever delay he caused in *activating Kamui, *which in turn is a dead giveaway that Minato used Hiraishin *first *in this miniscule time-window. Since Kamui itself is very fast, you see it materialize to an effect. Hence, the depiction of speed, and their battle boiling down to a _split-second _difference.



Minato escaped because they activated *simultaneously*. Obito wasn't first, which is the qualifier for victory *per the manga narrative*.

Simultaneous and first are two different things. No matter how often you attempt this garbage tier premise it will always fail because Obito *isn't first when he is the same time*.

The manga panel is not lying to the reader. It shows simultaneous activation. The manga narrative also is not lying by telling us the first strike wins. There is no contradiction here to build your fanfiction on, as a result it's just fanfiction.


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## Hasan (Jan 17, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Obito didn't activate immediately, allowing Minato to activate simultaneously, *as we are shown*.
> 
> Fanfiction is not required.
> 
> In fact one could argue Minato activated after kamui as he hasn't completed the FTG handsign in the panel *you posted*.


It's the same handseal shown with his very next Hiraishin jump. Almost as if the author is going: "Pay attention, dear readers". Does it matter that the are fingers are slightly apart, when the object is to capture 'time' on a static image? This reeks of desperation, to which I ask why is his hand visually cutting through the warp when it should be distorted, and again in the next panel, highlighted, although to a lesser degree? As I said, you clearly have no idea how these pages are conceptualized and finally produced. Kishimoto has paid attention to details that most people don't even notice, and even those who have been reading the manga for nearly two decades went: "How the hell do you people find these details?".

Secondly—_*yawn*_. Please, learn to read: In my very first response when you said that it's simultaneous, I noted that Kishimoto indicated no motion for that handseal. That means, he had already formed it, not that he was _forming it_. Again, if the SFX was there, this wouldn't be a discussion.



> No.
> 
> The manga *tells us the first strike wins.*
> 
> ...


Again, please, read. I am arguing that neither the simultaneous use nor the 'midwarp escape' that Minato-supporters have argued over the years happened _*because*_ the manga explicitly says that "whoever strikes first, wins the battle"... My stance on this is well-known amongst the notable Minato-supporters. You saw Hussain earlier? Last time I brought this up, he justified it by arguing that _characters are often wrong in their assessment_. That is, the guy who used the technique and who escaped the technique didn't know what happened. Maybe Minato _*and*_ Obito are retarded, or they were drunk—or both.

You didn't need me to point out that Kishimoto with his remarkable attention to detail visually captured, or at least tried to, the nuance—and so the scene is perfectly consistent. In fact, even I didn't notice the handseal at first, it was pointed out by another member. I logically came to the conclusion that Minato must have had used Hiraishin just slightly before Obito used Kamui and the best explanation to those two panels is that it's depicting the speed of two teleportation techniques, when one had the headstart. The visual confirmation just strengthens it. Furthermore, it's obvious even if you speedread. One doesn't need to have this acute sense to realize that Obito continuing the battle, and Minato after escaping Kamui still saying that he would get warped this time... is a "hold on just a second, please" moment.

The simultaneous use you are arguing is Minato *the person *reacting to Kamui the _*technique*_, and if Minato is capable of timing his own with the said _*technique*_, then it doesn't matter *when *Obito _*the person *_uses said technique. Minato will always win, and that's what the manga doesn't argue. That is why he avoided getting tagged altogether. Even if Obito tagged him here (see below), he was perfectly capable of escaping, seeing that he already used it 'simultaneously'. But the man himself says, he _can't._ As such, it can neither be the simultaneous use nor the midwarp escape. After all, he _escaped_. He knows better.

.​


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## Devil_Jin (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Don't see how is that different. Minato didn't know Obito was going to teleport behind him or whatever. So, it's not like he had his guard up during that time either.
> 
> if Obito were to appear behind him, he will still sense him and react accordingly. Izanagi, at best, will only delay the inevitable.
> Obito will still kiss the ground sooner or later, all of his abilities are useless here.


Sorry for the late reply went to sleep.

That's the thing minato is not a passive sensor . He only noticed naruto and kurama's chakra when orochimaru directly told them that there was a war going on with madara .

Similar to tobirama who couldn't even sense madara outside the room he was in because he was not kneading chakra for it.

And his guard was up there. He still knew madara  was out there somewhere and ready to strike. It's different when minato is assured of his victory


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## Ren. (Jan 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> all of that post was awful.
> Hence the dislike...
> 
> and yes, that includes the ability to get out of Kamui


So I see you don't need my help again a so called smarte OP fan GG

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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

Ok, I'm gonna hold your hand through this and see if we get anywhere.



Hasan said:


> It's the same handseal shown with his very next Hiraishin jump. Almost as if the author is going: "Pay attention, dear readers". Does it matter that they are fingers are slightly apart, when the object is capture 'time' on a static image? This reeks of desperation, to which I ask why is his hand visually cutting through the warp when it should be distorted, and again in the next panel, highlighted, although to a lesser degree? As I said, you clearly have no idea how these pages are conceptualized and finally produced. Kishimoto has paid attention to details that most people don't notice, and even those who have been reading the manga for nearly two decades went: "How the hell do you people find these details?".
> 
> Secondly—_*yawn*_. Please, learn to read: In my very first response when you said that it's simultaneous, I noted that Kishimoto indicated no motion for that handseal. That means, he had already formed it, not that he was _forming it_. Again, if the SFX was there, this wouldn't be a discussion.



Minato doesn't release the seal until after he ports.



Also the seal itself is the two fingers tight, not open like in your image. That suggests he has not yet _formed the seal_.




> Again, please, read. I am arguing that neither the simultaneous use nor the 'midwarp escape' that Minato-supporters have argued over the years happened _*because*_ the manga explicitly says that "whoever strikes first, wins the battle"



Simultaneous is not first.

This will never change.



> ... My stance on this is well-known amongst the notable Minato-supporters.



I don't care.



> You didn't need me to point out that Kishimoto with his remarkable attention to detail visually captured, or at least tried to, the nuance—and so the scene is perfectly consistent.



Yes it is.

It's consistent with a simultaneous action.



> In fact, even I didn't notice the handseal at first, it was pointed out by another member.



Did they point out it was a still _incomplete handseal_?



> I logically came to the conclusion that Minato must have had used Hiraishin just slightly before Obito used Kamui and the best explanation to those two panels is that it's depicting the speed of two teleportation techniques, when one had the headstart.



Except it's not logical. In fact it's the opposite. It's requires headcanon that is contrary to the panels. In fact, hilariously, one could argue Obito had the headstart because the FTG seal is not completed lol

@Hussain

Stick with the facts. We are shown both techniques at the same time.



> The visual confirmation just strengthens it.



I think you mean debunks it?

Incomplete FTG seal anyone?



> Furthermore, it's obvious even if you speedread. One doesn't need to have this acute sense to realize that Obito continuing the battle, and Minato after escaping Kamui still saying that he would get warped this time... is a "hold on just a second, please" moment.



It's a standard draw first win scenario.



> The simultaneous use you are arguing is Minato *the person *reacting to Kamui the _*technique*_, and if Minato is capable of timing his own with the said _*technique*_, then it doesn't matter *when *Obito _*the person *_uses said technique.



This is just ridiculously awful logic.

Obito's hesitation allowed Minato to react simultaneously. If Obito doesn't hesitate and strikes first, as the narrative tells us, he wins.



> Minato will always win,



If simultaneous, yes he will escape.

If Obito strikes first as we are told, he will win.



> and that's what the manga doesn't argue.



But seemingly you are.



> That is why he avoided getting tagged altogether.



Yes because without warning from Obito Minato would not be able to react simultaneously.



> Even if Obito tagged him here (see below),



But he didn't tag Minato there. That was the point of the scene is *Minato was first*. (a split second earlier)



> he was perfectly capable of escaping,



If simultaneous, sure.

However he must be first in order to win.



> seeing that he already used it 'simultaneously'.



Minato can't react simultaneously without Obito's hesitation.



> But the man himself says, he _can't._



Actually he said he must be first, (a split second earlier) not same time.

Accuracy is a bitch.



> As such, it can neither be the simultaneous



It can and is.



> use nor the midwarp escape.



Don't care about a midwarp argument.



> After all, he _escaped_. He knows better.



He did escape by reacting simultaneously.

The only avenue for victory as outlined by the narrative is to be first. Simultaneous just prevents him from losing, but it cannot allow him to win.

Here's the wackiest part - The narrative up and down tells us whoever strikes first will win, yet here you are arguing *that Minato was first*, yet Minato did not win by acting first.

Yep you know where this is going.

Minato *could not have been first because he didn't win there*. Also since Obito didn't win *he also could not have been first*.

So what do you get when both peeps are not first?

Simultaneous.

Incoming mental gymnastics I'm sure.


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## Ren. (Jan 17, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> Fuck me




@ShinAkuma  vs @Hussain VS @Hasan 
Me:


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 17, 2020)

Ren. said:


> @ShinAkuma  vs @Hussain VS @Hasan
> Me:



I got nothing against @Hussain 's argument. It's simply not the argument I'm making.


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## Ren. (Jan 17, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> I got nothing against @Hussain 's argument. It's simply not the argument I'm making.


Still funny to read them!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 17, 2020)

I was waiting for hasan to appear, finally this thread has started


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## dergeist (Jan 18, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Minato feared Kid MS Obito and admitted he won the match by a hair. Adult Obito has vastly improved, mastered Kamui, has Izanagi, and won't fall for the same trick twice. Adult Obito high diffs



Adult Obito low diffs, Kid Obito was distracted by other things that including summoning the 9 tails, maintaining the summoning and keeping it under control. That is while fighting Arsepullnato with the sole intention of pulling him into Boxland, he wasn't even trying to kill him. He was essentially multi tasking, while Arsepullnato had his full attention on Obito.


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## Hasan (Jan 18, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Minato doesn't release the seal until after he ports.
> 
> 
> 
> Also the seal itself is the two fingers tight, not open like in your image. That suggests he has not yet _formed the seal_.


And?



> Simultaneous is not first.
> 
> This will never change.


Okay, and what does this have to do with what I argued?



> I don't care.


I don't care that you don't care. I am only clarifying that your response reeks of ignorance, as you spectactularly fail to understand what I am even arguing to begin with.



> Yes it is.
> 
> It's consistent with a simultaneous action.


And I am telling you that it isn't. Why? Because Kishimoto clearly indicates whether some event depicted in a panel is happening or already had happened. Spare the poor man that he isn't working as an animator, so has to do with SFX bubbles on static images.



> Did they point out it was a still _incomplete handseal_?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought that the discussion was about whether the event of forming handseal, complete or incomplete, is happening simultaneously or that he had already formed, however complete, as the Kamui swirls materialize.



> It's a standard draw first win scenario.


Okay?



> This is just ridiculously awful logic.
> 
> Obito's hesitation allowed Minato to react simultaneously. If Obito doesn't hesitate and strikes first, as the narrative tells us, he wins.


Obito "hesistated" in using Kamui, which gave Minato the opening to use Hiraishin, and so the latter capitalized on the delay (caused by said hesitation). I don't see the problem.



> But seemingly you are.


Well, I'm not. Hence, my response to your "I don't care" comment above.



> Yes because without warning from Obito Minato would not be able to react simultaneously.


Pray tell, how does Obito's Kamui work?



> But he didn't tag Minato there. That was the point of the scene is *Minato was first*. (a split second earlier)


I know that.



> Don't care about a midwarp argument.


I don't care that you don't care. I only care about the fact that most posters, whether they agree with me or not, are familiar with my stance that I don't feel the need to write a doctoral thesis. As such they understand the point, even if I'm not going into further details. If a poster doesn't understand my point, I hope that he or she gives me enough respect to ask what the hell am I trying to say with these 'ramblings'. You're not even making an effort to understand what I am even saying, but pretending that you have. Hence, your ridiculous quoting style... You quoted the definition of simultaneously earlier. I insist that you post the definition of a 'paragraph'.



> Here's the wackiest part - The narrative up and down tells us whoever strikes first will win, yet here you are arguing *that Minato was first*, yet Minato did not win by acting first.
> 
> Yep you know where this is going.
> 
> ...


What on earth are you going on about?


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 18, 2020)

Hasan said:


> And?



It means the "seal" you keep referencing is in fact *not the seal of confrontation*, or at least it isn't.....*yet.*

The seal of confrontation is half tiger or ram sign. Two fingers tight. It's not peace sign. Minato is in the midst of forming the seal disqualifying the head start argument.

This could suggest that Obito may have had the head start if somebody wanted to argue that.



> Okay, and what does this have to do with what I argued?



It means Minato did not have a head start.



> I don't care that you don't care.



Then GTFO and make the mid warp argument to somebody arguing mid warp. Literally has nothing to do with me. 

Telling me what you debated with whoever at some point in the past that is *unrelated to my argument* is the highest form of irrelevance.



> And I am telling you that it isn't.



And you're wrong, hence here we are.

In fact Obito may have even went first.



> Why? Because Kishimoto clearly indicates whether some event depicted in a panel is happening or already had happened. Spare the poor man that he isn't working as an animator, so has to do with SFX bubbles on static images.



The seal of confrontation doesn't come with a sound effect, or at least not 100% of the time.



So that's a hard no on the SFX argument.



> I thought that the discussion was about whether the event of forming handseal, complete or incomplete, is happening simultaneously or that he had already formed, however complete, as the Kamui swirls materialize.



Pretty sure the discussion was if Minato had a *head start*.

Discussing the seal of confrontations completion brings us into *Obito had the head start* territory.



> Okay?



Maybe we're getting somewhere.



> Obito "hesistated" in using Kamui, which gave Minato the opening to use Hiraishin, and so the latter capitalized on the delay (caused by said hesitation). I don't see the problem.



Yes they acted simultaneously.

I don't see a problem either.



> Well, I'm not. Hence, my response to your "I don't care" comment above.



I guess we will see.



> Pray tell, how does Obito's Kamui work?



Why don't you tell us how it works? You're the guy reading with _nuance_ after all.



> I know that.



As long as you know - First = win



> I don't care that you don't care.



Ok great. If you don't care and I don't care I will just delete anything to do with midwarp or whatever.



> What on earth are you going on about?



Talking about you arguing that Minato had a head start. Remember?



I am outlining the logic that shows Minato could not have had a head start.

If you've accepted the obvious implication of simultaneous, (or potentially Obito head start!!) then no problem.


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## Hasan (Jan 18, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> It means the "seal" you keep referencing is in fact *not the seal of confrontation*, or at least it isn't.....*yet.*
> 
> The seal of confrontation is half tiger or ram sign. Two fingers tight. It's not peace sign. Minato is in the midst of forming the seal disqualifying the head start argument.
> 
> ...


I can see that. All I have said is that it denotes the handseal for Hiraishin, which you evidently aren't denying, and argued that Kishimoto intentionally drew it that way so that the readers don't end up getting confused, because these kind of events are extremely difficult to depict on a paper. I am asking you how did you come to the conclusion that being incomplete is a significant point, when I argued along the lines of a basic design principle that designers in pretty much field recognize? If you still don't understand, that panel is an example of _an intentionally bad Photoshop_ to convey a point.




> Then GTFO and make the mid warp argument to somebody arguing mid warp. Literally has nothing to do with me.
> 
> Telling me what you debated with whoever at some point in the past that is *unrelated to my argument* is the highest form of irrelevance.
> 
> Ok great. If you don't care and I don't care I will just delete anything to do with midwarp or whatever.







Hasan said:


> I am arguing that neither the simultaneous use nor the 'midwarp escape' *that Minato-supporters have argued over the years happened* _*because*_ the manga explicitly says that "whoever strikes first, wins the battle"


I said it for completeness' sake. You didn't need to address that bit, but was somehow compelled to.



> And you're wrong, hence here we are.
> 
> In fact Obito may have even went first.
> 
> ...


You can't hear music after it's ended. SFX are the staple of the comic books in japanese comics and comics everywhere else. That's how the comic writers bring the 'static' pages to life. Motion or sound are only there, if the character is "currently" performing something, which is why they are required there. If Kishimoto has drawn a character with a handseal with an SFX, then it means that the character is performing that action currently. If he didn't, then the panel captures the instance after the action is done.





> Yes they acted simultaneously.
> 
> I don't see a problem either.
> 
> ...


The honour is mine: When Obito tries to  warp, he tries to make physical contact with the target by trying to grab said target. He practically announces, through his physical gesture, that he's trying to warp. How on earth is that not a "warning sign"? In fact, that's how Minato secured that split-second interval. If he's capable of timing his attack when's Obito arm was this close (see below), then it's out of question that he's completely capable of timing his attack even simultaneously irrespective of when Obito used Kamui. The timing is reliant upon the physical gesture, and Minato explains all this before stating the whoever wins comment.



> *Talking about you arguing that Minato had a head start. Remember?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am, and I am arguing that _simultaneous use_ is in *contradiction *with the whole 'whoever strikes first' narrative. Obito "hesitating" / the so-called warning sign is an _*inherent drawback *_of Obito's Kamui:



If Minato wants to time his attack a _split-second before_ Obito makes contact, then he needs to pay attention to the latter's hand. If he wishes to time the attack _simultaneously_ with Obito's warp, then he needs to pay attention to... _you guessed it_... the same hand. As such, it doesn't matter _*when *_Obito uses Kamui if he's capable of executing a simultaneous attack, because that's how Obito's Kamui works. The Obito "hesitated" / gave a warning *necessarily *means that Hiraishin had a slight headstart, and that's the natural conclusion of the whole 'strike first' narrative.


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## Namikaze Minato Flash (Jan 18, 2020)

Minato high-diff...


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## trocollo (Jan 18, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Just want to speculate on the FTG interaction with Kamui.
> 
> We have seen summons into an alternate dimension, so I would believe summoning can work in boxland. It's a logical fit.
> 
> ...


It's a good point, depends on how FTG works
Like "see" can be something like having a chakra link with the mark, if it's like this Minato shouldn't be able to see any of his marks if he is in another dimension
But we don't know if this is excatly the case, the workings of FTG is also referred as entering in a dimensional void and teleporting instantaneusly to the formula they chose, so like this seems that travelling dimension is a given for the FTG, and Minato can chose where to go from other dimensions
In the end should depend on Kishi, like we've seen Sasuke only able to swap positions and from that he ends up opeing S/T portals

Reactions: Like 1


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## Legend777 (Jan 18, 2020)

Minato saving kid naruto from explosive tags / escaping from truth seeking balls vs Obito getting damaged by Konan and needing double Kamui to escape from the truth seeking balls implies that Minato still holds the edge when it comes to speed.

Since Obito now has first hand knowledge of Minato's speed, there will be a battle of attrition this time around.

Either Obito slips up and gets wrecked again or he might wear down Minato by forcing him to use KB's . Slight edge to Minato IMO.



Amirsh said:


> Sorry for the late reply went to sleep.
> 
> That's the thing minato is not a passive sensor . He only noticed naruto and kurama's chakra when orochimaru directly told them that there was a war going on with madara .
> 
> ...



If Minato does manage to defeat Obito, it would mean that he would have tagged him in the process.

If Obito uses Izanagi to attack Minato, he would be alerted because he can passively sense his Hirashin tags.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Legend777 said:


> If Obito uses Izanagi to attack Minato, he would be alerted because he can *passively sense his Hirashin tags*.


Where was this said? 

Anyways Izanagi rewrites the reality for the user to end up in an advantageous position. Obito can just remove the Hiraishin mark with Izanagi.


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## Zembie (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Where was this said?
> 
> Anyways Izanagi rewrites the reality for the user to end up in an advantageous position. Obito can just remove the Hiraishin mark with Izanagi.


It just rewrites your "destiny". By destiny it means death. Izanagi has been shown to ONLY cheat death, not do something THAT asspullish. Although if Kishi had more time to write about Asspulldara, I am sure he would have given him a special Izanagi that removes your opponent from the world or something like that.


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Zembie said:


> It just rewrites your "destiny". By destiny it means death. Izanagi has been shown to ONLY cheat death, not do something THAT asspullish. Although if Kishi had more time to write about Asspulldara, I am sure he would have given him a special Izanagi that removes your opponent from the world or something like that.


Izanagi gives the user the option to apply an illusion to reality itself, so the user has control over what is and is not real for as long as Izanagi is active.

The fact that it was used to cheat death only, because that is all that Danzo&Obito needed there, does not contradict this.

The user can rewrite any ill effects that were laid on him judging from the description of how Izanagi works.


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## Zembie (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Izanagi gives the user the option to apply an illusion to reality itself, so the user has control over what is and is not real for as long as Izanagi is active.


I am sure that Obito would have loved having his other arm in his fight with Konan, alas that did not happen and he fought one-handed.



> The fact that it was used to cheat death only, because that is all that Danzo&Obito needed there, does not contradict this.


Sure



> The user can rewrite any ill effects that were laid on him judging from the description of how Izanagi works.


But descriptions alone should not be used in debates, we have to see how it was used and go from there, not doing so can lead to a road of fanfic.


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> The user can rewrite any ill effects that were laid on him judging from the description of how Izanagi works.


Ill, that means it can make him not die not win.

The jutsu never said it will rewrite reality to that level if that was the case you can use Izanagi to erase Kaguya.

Press X to doubt, again I will recall a no limit fallacy.


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Zembie said:


> I am sure that Obito would have loved having his other arm in his fight with Konan, alas that did not happen and he fought one-handed.


Yes he would

Unlucky that he activated Izanagi AFTER he lost his arm





Zembie said:


> But descriptions alone should not be used in debates, we have to see how it was used and go from there, doing so can lead to a road of fanfic.


Sometimes techniques are not used to full potential so we have to go with how the technique was described and apply it in other scenarios, that is the whole point of NBD after all, we put things in scenarios that did not happen in the manga


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Ill, that means it can make him not die not win.
> 
> The jutsu never said it will rewrite reality to that level if that was the case you can use Izanagi to erase Kaguya.
> 
> Press X to doubt, again I will recall a no limit fallacy.


He can only apply the changes to himself, he casts genjutsu on himself

You can't change the surroundings..


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> He can only apply the changes to himself, he casts genjutsu on himself
> 
> You can't change the surroundings..


So as he said he can't die at best.

He can't force an outcome that makes another lose that means changing the surroundings or other people.

And that is enough OP, Kishi already made Asspuldara and it's final form Kaguya.


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## JayK (Jan 18, 2020)

if FTG works cross dimensional (I don't think it does) then Minato wins for sure

if it doesn't then Obito wins with extreme difficulty


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## Zembie (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Yes he would
> 
> Unlucky that he activated Izanagi AFTER he lost his arm


But Izanagi can re-write reality, right? You even used your izanagi argument with Minato's tag, if Minato tags Obito with a mark before he uses Izanagi you said that Izanagi removes it, now you are saying that the reason Obito doesn't have his hand is because he used izanagi AFTER he lost his hand. Stop contradicting yourself. Obito barely edges out this match and I am saying this as someone who wanks Obito.






> Sometimes techniques are not used to full potential so we have to go with how the technique was described and apply it in other scenarios, that is the whole point of NBD after all, we put things in scenarios that did not happen in the manga


Shino's bugs enter Rikudou Naruto's ear and he dies. You have to be reasonable when debating. We are literally shown ON PANEL COUNTLESS TIMES what Izanagi can do.

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Ren. said:


> So as he said he can't die at best.
> 
> He can't force an outcome that makes another lose that means changing the surrounding or other people.


What

He can change anything that has been applied on him, including death

Do you think rewriting death is a less complicated process than removing a chakra signature, that is FTG mark, off your body?


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## JayK (Jan 18, 2020)

I don't even understand why Izanagi is brought up here when Minato can just always try to aim for BFR.

That being said that doesn't change the fact that Minato actually has to make body contact which is close to impossible (for obvious reasons) and that Obito is more durable (hardly matters in this fight though) and likely also has slightly better reserves.


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Do you think rewriting death is a less complicated process than removing a chakra signature, that is FTG mark, off your body?


That was not even my point and this is a wrong move.

Why would you use an extra life hack on something so stupid.

No one would use it that way.


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Zembie said:


> But Izanagi can re-write reality, right? You even used your izanagi argument with Minato's tag, if Minato tags Obito with a mark before he uses Izanagi you said that Izanagi removes it, now you are saying that the reason Obito doesn't have his hand is because he used izanagi AFTER he lost his hand. Stop contradicting yourself. Obito barely edges out this match and I am saying this as someone who wanks Obito.


Yes, it rewrites anything that happens during the Izanagi time-window

And Obito would be a fool not to activate Izanagi before their clash, since his Izanagi lasts for 10 minutes which is long enough to last entire battle between those two S/T users that had their last fight last just a minute or two

So Obito activates Izanagi at the start, and if he gets tagged during the clash, he wins via Izanagi



Zembie said:


> Shino's bugs enter Rikudou Naruto's ear and he dies. You have to be reasonable when debating.


How is this related to Izanagi rewriting reality of the user, which is something we've already seen happen with a far more complex issue - death ?


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Ren. said:


> That was not even my point and this is a wrong move.
> 
> Why would you use an extra life hack on something so stupid.
> 
> No one would use it that way.


?
He can die, and then respawn without the mark

I am not saying he rewrites only the mark


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> ?
> He can die, and then respawn without the mark
> 
> I am not saying he rewrites only the mark


Yes but that does not mean he is winning.

My bet is that he uses that to respawn and gets away so a draw.

He would and should not use that casually aka mid-battle, that is too much of a risk because another touch and he gets another seal.


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Yes but that does not mean he is winning.
> 
> My bet is that he uses that to respawn and gets away so a draw.
> 
> He would and should not use that casually aka mid-battle, that is too much of a risk because another touch and he gets another seal.


How does Minato react to Izanagi blindside?

He is getting stabbed in his back without suspecting anything


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## Zembie (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Yes, it rewrites anything that happens during the Izanagi time-window
> 
> And Obito would be a fool not to activate Izanagi before their clash, since his Izanagi lasts for 10 minutes which is long enough to last entire battle between those two S/T users that had their last fight last just a minute or two
> So Obito activates Izanagi at the start, and if he gets tagged during the clash, he wins via Izanagi.


If Obito activates Izanagi before their clash he gets dunked as he automatically loses 1 eye. Minato is smarter than Sasuke and Sasuke figured out how Izanagi works.
Not to mention that it is EXTREMELY out of character for Obito, as he used Izanagi once because he was about to die.




> How is this related to Izanagi rewriting reality of the user, which is something we've already seen happen with a far more complex issue - death ?


I am saying that you have to be reasonable when arguing about Izanagi. Izanagi can re-write EVENTS that put the user at a disadvantage.


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> How does Minato react to Izanagi blindside?
> 
> He is getting stabbed in his back without suspecting anything


Sensor, problem solved and don't if me you are using an if yourself.

And in that moment Obito will not be 100% and with only one eye.

Izanami does not make him 100% again.


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Zembie said:


> If Obito activates Izanagi before their clash he gets dunked as he automatically loses 1 eye. Minato is smarter than Sasuke and Sasuke figured out how Izanagi works.
> Not to mention that it is EXTREMELY out of character for Obito, as he used Izanagi once because he was about to die.


Sasuke did not figure out how Izanagi works on his own and he did not figure it out after the first try either

And Minato won't even see Obito lose his eyesight as Obito has his other eye hidden behind the mask

So he tries to kill Obito, if he manages to get a FTG mark on him in the process, good for him

But that doesn't change the fact Obito will unexpectedly spawn behind Minato, with FTG mark off, and then stab him in his back



Zembie said:


> I am saying that you have to be reasonable when arguing about Izanagi. Izanagi can re-write EVENTS that put the user at a disadvantage.


No, it can rewrite ill effects that were laid out on the user

And since it can do it with something as serious and complex as death, rewriting a stupid chakra mark will be no issue unless bias comes into play


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## Artistwannabe (Jan 18, 2020)

Izanagi can only rewrite reality once it is casted, after izanagi Obito still had his previous injuries PRIOR to the cast.


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Sensor, problem solved and don't if me you are using an if yourself.
> 
> And in that moment Obito will not be 100% and with only one eye.
> 
> Izanami does not make him 100% again.



I am pretty sure you're confused about how Izanagi works.

If Obito uses Izanagi, he loses sight on his eye. Then for 10 minutes, anything that happens to him, he can basically delete from reality.
So if Obito starts at 100%, then uses Izanagi, and his legs get cut off. After 10 minutes (or sooner if he wants), he will be back to 100%.


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## Artistwannabe (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> No, it can rewrite ill effects that were laid out on the user
> 
> And since it can do it with something as serious and complex as death, rewriting a stupid chakra mark will be no issue unless bias comes into play


Obito still had his previous injuries after he used Izanagi against Konan. He needs to cast Izanagi before he gets tagged, otherwise he'd still be affected by anything preceding the cast.


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> Izanagi can only rewrite reality once it is casted, after izanagi Obito still had his previous injuries PRIOR to the cast.


This and let's not forget that this happened:



Madara still lost, he just survived.


t0xeus said:


> So if Obito starts at 100%, then uses Izanagi, and his legs get cut off. After 10 minutes (or sooner if he wants), he will be back to 100%.




False, it only restores to the point he is not dead.

And other injuries are still there, we already have this in the manga.



t0xeus said:


> So if Obito starts at 100%, then uses Izanagi, and his legs get cut off. After 10 minutes (or sooner if he wants), he will be back to 100%.


That will never happen!


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> Obito still had his previous injuries after he used Izanagi against Konan. He needs to cast Izanagi before he gets tagged, otherwise he'd still be affected by anything preceding the cast.


That's what I am saying.


t0xeus said:


> Yes, it rewrites anything that happens during the Izanagi time-window
> 
> And Obito would be a fool not to activate Izanagi before their clash, since his Izanagi lasts for 10 minutes which is long enough to last entire battle between those two S/T users that had their last fight last just a minute or two
> 
> So Obito activates Izanagi at the start, and if he gets tagged during the clash, he wins via Izanagi


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## Zembie (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Sasuke did not figure out how Izanagi works on his own and he did not figure it out after the first try either


Rewatch the fight, he DID figure it out himself.



> And Minato won't even see Obito lose his eyesight as Obito has his other eye hidden behind the mask


That's a disadvantage for Obito, I wasn't talking about Minato at all. He would obviously see that every time he gets killed he respawns somewhere else.



> So he tries to kill Obito, if he manages to get a FTG mark on him in the process, good for him
> 
> But that doesn't change the fact Obito will unexpectedly spawn behind Minato, with FTG mark off, and then stab him in his back


You're arguing that Obito will start with Izanagi right from the get-go, which is so OOC for him even I can't argue for it.



> No, it can rewrite ill effects that were laid out on the user
> 
> And since it can do it with something as serious and complex as death, rewriting a stupid chakra mark will be no issue unless bias comes into play


If he gets tagged while it's casted? Sure.


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

Zembie said:


> Rewatch the fight, he DID figure it out himself.
> 
> 
> That's a disadvantage for Obito, I wasn't talking about Minato at all. He would obviously see that every time he gets killed he respawns somewhere else.
> ...



I am on the same side as him!


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Zembie said:


> Rewatch the fight, he DID figure it out himself.


Not after the first cast

And he needed Susanoo to not die from the first respawn



Zembie said:


> That's a disadvantage for Obito, I wasn't talking about Minato at all. He would obviously see that every time he gets killed he respawns somewhere else.


Why would Obito need to respawn more than once even

First respawn is already unexpected so he gets Minato with a blindside then



Zembie said:


> You're arguing that Obito will start with Izanagi right from the get-go, which is so OOC for him even I can't argue for it.


How is it OOC?

There's no reason to underestimate Minato here

If he knows he needs Izanagi to win he will use it


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## Artistwannabe (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> That's what I am saying.


Sure, but Obito casting Izanagi before a fight would be extremely OOC as he basically relies on Kamui for everything, he only used Izanagi once when he was ACTUALLY about to DIE in an inescapable situation. Obito is not Danzou, but if he uses Izanagi before the fight? Sure he can win.


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## Artistwannabe (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> First respawn is already unexpected so he gets Minato with a blindside then


Minato is a sensor, no reason not to go into sensing mode once the dude disappears in front of him.


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> How is it OOC?
> 
> There's no reason to underestimate Minato here
> 
> If he knows he needs Izanagi to win he will use it


NO sorry no Uchiha has done this.

So it is a very one-sided what if!

What you are saying is that  Minato should go SM from before the fight so we are again at the starting stage.


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## Zembie (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Why would Obito need to respawn more than once even
> 
> First respawn is already unexpected so he gets Minato with a blindside then


Minato is a sensor, once Obito disappears Minato would go into sensor mode. That's how he reacted to Obito's blindside the first time if I am not misremembering.



> How is it OOC?
> 
> There's no reason to underestimate Minato here
> 
> If he knows he needs Izanagi to win he will use it


Obito always uses Kamui in a fight to gauge his opponents and beat them. Obito has only used Izanagi once where Kamui simply DIDN'T work as he was about to die. And this is ignoring the HUGE chakra cost Izanagi requires.


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> Sure, but Obito casting Izanagi before a fight would be extremely OOC as he basically relies on Kamui for everything, he only used Izanagi once when he was ACTUALLY about to DIE in an inescapable situation. Obito is not Danzou, but if he uses Izanagi before the fight? Sure he can win.


I don't see how this is OOC

He knows Minato has everything he needs to win here

So if he doubts that his reactions improved since the last time, using a technique that costs him one Sharingan out of his hundreds in his laboratory, there's no real drawback to it



Artistwannabe said:


> Minato is a sensor, no reason not to go into sensing mode once the dude disappears in front of him.


Why would Minato keep looking at his corpse

Not to mention the fact even Sasuke with Sharingan heightening his perception did not notice Danzo's body disappearing before Danzo was already attacking him:

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*



So if Minato notices the body disappearing, it will at best be one microsecond before he is stabbed


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Zembie said:


> Minato is a sensor, once Obito disappears Minato would go into sensor mode. That's how he reacted to Obito's blindside the first time if I am not misremembering.


Why would Minato keep looking at his corpse

Not to mention the fact even Sasuke with Sharingan heightening his perception did not notice Danzo's body disappearing before Danzo was already attacking him:

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*





So if Minato notices the body disappearing, it will at best be one microsecond before he is stabbed



Zembie said:


> Obito always uses Kamui in a fight to gauge his opponents and beat them. Obito has only used Izanagi once where Kamui simply DIDN'T work as he was about to die. And this is ignoring the HUGE chakra cost Izanagi requires.


I don't see how this is OOC

He knows Minato has everything he needs to win here

So if he doubts that his reactions improved since the last time, using a technique that costs him one Sharingan out of his hundreds in his laboratory, there's no real drawback to it


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Ren. said:


> NO sorry no Uchiha has done this.
> 
> So it is a very one-sided what if!
> 
> What you are saying is that  Minato should go SM from before the fight so we are again at the starting stage.


No Uchiha has ever fought and lost to Minato, and no Uchiha has 300 sharingans in his laboratory

So that's a moot comparison


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> I don't see how this is OOC
> 
> He knows Minato has everything he needs to win here
> 
> ...


If you are using this scenario the use of SM for Minato.

If you disagree then you are playing favorites for Obito.


If you use this scenario it becomes an extreme diff either way!



t0xeus said:


> No Uchiha has ever fought and lost to Minato, and no Uchiha has 300 sharingans in his laboratory
> 
> So that's a moot comparison


No, it is desperate what if!

As I said if that is the case you use SM Minato from the start.

If not you just wat Obito to win!


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## Zembie (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> I don't see how this is OOC
> 
> He knows Minato has everything he needs to win here
> 
> ...


Obito disappears, Minato uses FTG immediately. Pretty basic stuff.


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Ren. said:


> If you are using this scenario the use of SM for Minato.
> 
> If you disagree then you are playing favorites for Obito.
> 
> ...


Minato cannot enter SM by making a handseal lol

If he sits down and tries to use SM, his head is getting cut off

Activating Izanagi is easily done, entering SM for an inexperienced SM user like Minato is not


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Zembie said:


> Obito disappears, Minato uses FTG immediately. Pretty basic stuff.


Again, he will not notice Obito disappearing before getting already stabbed

Not even Sharingan user noticed it before getting attacked


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## Zembie (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Why would Minato keep looking at his corpse
> 
> Not to mention the fact even Sasuke with Sharingan heightening his perception did not notice Danzo's body disappearing before Danzo was already attacking him:
> 
> ...


Can't see the corpse if he was holding it, wtf is this logic? 




> So if Minato notices the body disappearing, it will at best be one microsecond before he is stabbed


No, Obito disappears and Minato uses FTG to escape, even if he isn't aware that Obito is behind him.



> I don't see how this is OOC
> 
> He knows Minato has everything he needs to win here
> 
> So if he doubts that his reactions improved since the last time, using a technique that costs him one Sharingan out of his hundreds in his laboratory, there's no real drawback to it


It is EXTREMELY OOC for Obito to use it. As I said, he used it only ONCE and that is because he was about to die. I'd bet Obito would just be a lot more cautious with Kamui. It's obvious you want Obito to win, but giving him OOC prep is not the way to do it.


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## Artistwannabe (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> I don't see how this is OOC
> 
> He knows Minato has everything he needs to win here
> 
> So if he *doubts* that his reactions improved since the last time, using a technique that costs him one Sharingan out of his hundreds in his laboratory, there's no real drawback to it


Because it is OOC, Obito only used Izanagi once Kamui was out of the question, Obito would never "doubt" himself as Madara's persona is EXTREMELY cocky. 



> Why would Minato keep looking at his corpse
> 
> Not to mention the fact even Sasuke with Sharingan heightening his perception did not notice Danzo's body disappearing before Danzo was already attacking him:
> 
> ...


Because unlike in your scenario you showed Obito would never be obscured by a giant Susanoo arm hiding his body, Minato WILL see the body disappearing.


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Minato cannot enter SM by making a handseal lol
> 
> If he sits down and tries to use SM, his head is getting cut off
> 
> Activating Izanagi is easily done, entering SM for an inexperienced SM user like Minato is not


Again you did not get my point, if you are using that Izanami is already activated so is SM.



So he will figure it out faster then Karin.


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## Sufex (Jan 18, 2020)

@Marvel 

If you wanted to see the new gen debate

Here you go

When they can be bothered they can all hold their own


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## Zembie (Jan 18, 2020)

Sufex said:


> @Marvel
> 
> If you wanted to see the new gen debate
> 
> ...


Not really impressive since I am arguing against someone with extreme bias against Minato.


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## Sufex (Jan 18, 2020)

Zembie said:


> Not really impressive since I am arguing against someone with extreme bias against Minato.


What do you mean, @t0xeus  told me minato was one of his favorite characters


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Zembie said:


> Can't see the corpse if he was holding it, wtf is this logic?





Artistwannabe said:


> Because unlike in your scenario you showed Obito would never be obscured by a giant Susanoo arm hiding his body, Minato WILL see the body disappearing.


Are you guys trolling

We literally see Danzo's feet poking out of the Susanoo hand

And next to it is a panel of Sasuke staring at that




Zembie said:


> It is EXTREMELY OOC for Obito to use it. As I said, he used it only ONCE and that is because he was about to die. I'd bet Obito would just be a lot more cautious with Kamui. It's obvious you want Obito to win, but giving him OOC prep is not the way to do it.





Artistwannabe said:


> Because it is OOC, Obito only used Izanagi once Kamui was out of the question, Obito would never "doubt" himself as Madara's persona is EXTREMELY cocky.


I don't see how comparing Obito going against someone he considers a weakling like Konan that he underestimated as per his own words, is somehow translatable than Obito going against a guy who already defeated him once

If Obito does not go Izanagi against Minato right off the bat, then against whom?

We've seen that Danzo with just 10 eyes is not afraid to spam them all

And you're telling me Obito with an access to dozens of eyes in his laboratory, will somehow be like "XD let's preserve my eyes for someone stronger than the guy who already gotten the best of me last time XD"
???


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## Zembie (Jan 18, 2020)

Sufex said:


> What do you mean, @t0xeus  told me minato was one of his favorite characters


Yea, and I LOVE Madara Uchiha as well

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Again you did not get my point, if you are using that Izanami is already activated so is SM.
> 
> 
> 
> So he will figure it out faster then Karin.


I am not saying he uses Izanagi before the fight

I say he uses it at the start of the fight


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

Sufex said:


> If you wanted to see the new gen debate


Well if you can call someone that was reading Naruto weekly from 2005 a new gen


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> I am not saying he uses Izanagi before the fight
> 
> I say he uses it at the start of the fight


That is even more of a fuck of if.

You made that so Minato can not use SM

you dawg


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Ren. said:


> That is even more of a fuck of if.
> 
> You made that so Minato can not use SM
> 
> you dawg


Nah, Minato made that himself

He says his SM takes too long to enter for it to be usable in a fight

Meanwhile Obito has used Izanagi mid-fight


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## trocollo (Jan 18, 2020)

Wait, I'm not getting why Minato has to see him or enter SM
He is a sensor and already reacted to a blindside by him in the Kurama fight


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Nah, Minato made that himself
> 
> He says his SM takes too long to enter for it to be usable in a fight
> 
> Meanwhile, Obito has used Izanagi mid-fight


 no end fight so wrong.

Let me explain to you why that is a bad thing.

First of all, it means he is not confident about other skill, second, it means that it will put a timer on himself.

Those two mean that he will be pressed and make more mistakes that usually.

So from a tactical decision that is a bad way to start a fight!

Izanami is best used to resurrect yourself that is the best usage you can get!


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Wait, I'm not getting why Minato has to see him or enter SM
> He is a sensor and already reacted to a blindside by him in the Kurama fight


He was kneading chakra there as he was about to use FTG 

Sensors don't sense unless they are kneading chakra


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## Zembie (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Are you guys trolling
> 
> We literally see Danzo's feet poking out of the Susanoo hand
> 
> And next to it is a panel of Sasuke staring at that


Oh, they are dark so I couldn't see them, you're right. Let's argue about the fact that Sasuke reacted to Danzou's blindside before he can strike. Sasuke who is a lot slower than Minato in reactions. (Don't say it is because Danzo talks, because talking is a free action in manga/anime). Minato literally reacted to Obito's blindside in their fight.






> I don't see how comparing Obito going against someone he considers a weakling like Konan that he underestimated as per his own words, is somehow translatable than Obito going against a guy who already defeated him once
> 
> If Obito does not go Izanagi against Minato right off the bat, then against whom?
> 
> ...


He has no reason to activate it immediately. He used it ONLY after Kamui was OUT OF THE EQUATION.

Against no one, since Obito relies solely on his use of Kamui when he has his MS. Using Izanagi is only IC for him when Kamui is out of the equation. Obito could fight just fine with Minato WITHOUT Izanagi, I see no reason why he would use it unless you just want Minato to lose for the sake of it.

No, Obito would rather preserve his chakra against someone who dunked him 16 years ago, than do something so OOC and stupid. If Izanagi blindside doesn't work and Minato figures out how Izanagi works, Obito is done for, since he would be out of juice.

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## Artistwannabe (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Are you guys trolling
> 
> We literally see Danzo's feet poking out of the Susanoo hand
> 
> And next to it is a panel of Sasuke staring at that


Even then he can still react to a Kamui blindside as he did previously when occupied by the Nine-Tails. In a fight against somebody with sensing and reflexes of Minato's caliber a blindside is extremely unlikely.




> I don't see how comparing Obito going against someone he considers a weakling like Konan that he underestimated as per his own words, is somehow translatable than Obito going against a guy who already defeated him once
> 
> If Obito does not go Izanagi against Minato right off the bat, then against whom?
> 
> ...


As I said, Obito is not Danzou. Nor will he "doubt" himself about a split-second difference the last time they fought, I understand trying to argue that he won't fall for the same trick twice, but using something he considered a last resort from the get-go? Nah


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

Zembie said:


> I see no reason why he would use it unless you just want Minato to lose for the sake of it.


Bingo!


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Ren. said:


> no end fight so wrong.
> 
> Let me explain to you why that is a bad thing.
> 
> ...


So it's better to risk dying in a fight just so you're not limited by 10 minutes (a hella long time when it comes to manga fights)

Rather than having a second life for the loss of 1 out of his 100s eyes in laboratory



Gotcha

Is Minato your fav by any chance?


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## trocollo (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> He was kneading chakra there as he was about to use FTG
> 
> Sensors don't sense unless they are kneading chakra


If he is in a battle he'll be kneading it, you're arguing for an immediate blindside, if Obito could reappear after 5 min then we can say that Minato goes to his home and relaxes


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Is Minato your fav by any chance?


Nope, I only hate Sasuke as a character! @Oreki 
But I hate Boruto more so.

Loved part 1 of Naruto, it was ok until Pain arc.

I don't think I have a favorite character anymore.

A shame it was my first manga.

But a better do you hate Minato because I don't see you liking Obito that much?

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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> Even then he can still react to a Kamui blindside as he did previously when occupied by the Nine-Tails. In a fight against somebody with sensing and reflexes of Minato's caliber a blindside is extremely unlikely.
> *Spoiler*: _This is what will happen, literally same scenario._


You can see in your page Minato is kneading chakra as he is about to use FTG

Kneading chakra is requirement for sensing as said by Tobirama in the flashback where they're having discussion about Hokage with Hashirama

So it's obvious he'd be able to sense blindside THERE

That does not translate to Minato who is not kneading chakra as he believes the fight is over



Artistwannabe said:


> As I said, Obito is not Danzou. Nor will he "doubt" himself about a split-second difference the last time they fought, I understand trying to argue that he won't fall for the same trick twice, but using something he considered a last resort from the get-go? Nah


Dude, Obito planned his Konoha attacks on the day of Kushina's birth, he also took several precautions before taking Minato out such as using TBB as distraction and planning a blindside, just so it has the highest chance of succeeding

And I am supposed to believe he doesn't use Izanagi because that'd make him too cautious? WHAT


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

trocollo said:


> If he is in a battle he'll be kneading it, you're arguing for an immediate blindside, if Obito could reappear after 5 min then we can say that Minato goes to his home and relaxes


He's not in a battle after he kills Obito

And yeah, Obito can probably respawn any time during that 10min window if I understand Izanagi correctly

So he can do even that


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Nope, I only hate Sasuke as a character! @Oreki
> But I hate Boruto more so.
> 
> Loved part 1 of Naruto, it was ok until Pain arc.
> ...


No, I am neutral towards Obito and Minato is my fav

He just doesn't win here and I hate to say it but activating Izanagi at the start against a formidable opponent like Minato is nowhere near OOC territory because of the reasons I laid out


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> He's not in a battle after he kills Obito
> 
> And yeah, Obito can probably respawn any time during that 10min window if I understand Izanagi correctly
> 
> So he can do even that


Do you understand that you arrived at the point that Izanagi is a must for Obito to win?

And reading the manga Izanagi never won any battle!





t0xeus said:


> He just doesn't win here and I hate to say it but activating Izanagi at the start against a formidable opponent like Minato is nowhere near OOC territory because of the reasons I laid out


No one ever used it that way so the manga disagrees!


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Do you understand that you arrived at the point that Izanagi is a must for Obito to win?
> 
> And reading the manga Izanagi never won any battle!


It's not

It's only a must if you believe Adult Obito has same reactions as his 14 y/o self

Which I personally don't believe, but a lot of the people here do

So I am showing them that even then Obito's win is still more likely than Minato's


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> It's not
> 
> It's only a must if you believe Adult Obito has same reactions as his 14 y/o self
> 
> ...


You are using so many if's.

Did the manga show better reaction time?

Did the manga show anyone using Izanagi as a way to win?

Did the manga show Izanagi by anyone from the start of the battle as a buff?

Obito wins only if you take a lot of if's.


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## trocollo (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> He's not in a battle after he kills Obito


Can you quantify this "after"?
An immediate blindside will get detected

This can be a solution:


t0xeus said:


> And yeah, Obito can probably respawn any time during that 10min window if I understand Izanagi correctly
> 
> So he can do even that


But it isn't possible, Danzo respawned immediatly, why there should be a time lag?
And even supposing that there is a time lag, you're basing your argument on a random variable such as "will Minato after the respawn be kneading chakra for whatever reason?", or "will Minato still be there or will he go to a random location that Obito doesn't know what it is beacause he was dead in those 5 minutes?"
What should happen? Minato takes Obito's body and brings it to the black ops? Then Obito who preveded this spawns in the middle of the anbu headquarters? And none will sense him?

The road you're taking to give the win to Obito is rare, with unknown probabilityes and is basically "Minato wins so Obito needs to flee and attack Minato by surprise in another istance when he less expects it"

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## Artistwannabe (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> You can see in your page Minato is kneading chakra as he is about to use FTG
> 
> Kneading chakra is requirement for sensing as said by Tobirama in the flashback where they're having discussion about Hokage with Hashirama
> 
> ...


How exactly did you figure out he was kneading chakra? Even if he was using a jutsu using chakra and kneading it to sense are 2 entirely different things. Obito was *BEHIND HIM* while he was still talking to himself, he was actually COMPLETELY off-guard here. Only barely before Obito touched him did he sense what was going on:




> Dude, Obito planned his Konoha attacks on the day of Kushina's birth, he also took several precautions before taking Minato out such as using TBB as distraction and planning a blindside, just so it has the highest chance of succeeding
> 
> And I am supposed to believe he doesn't use Izanagi because that'd make him too cautious? WHAT


Why would he be cautious about an opponent that he almost won against and only lost via a split-hair decision, while being WAY younger as well? He'd probably be even more confident as he almost won the last time and won't be falling for the same trick twice.

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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

trocollo said:


> But it isn't possible, Danzo respawned immediatly, why there should be a time lag?
> And even supposing that there is a time lag, you're basing your argument on a random variable such as "will Minato after the respawn be kneading chakra for whatever reason?", or "will Minato still be there or will he go to a random location that Obito doesn't know what it is beacause he was dead in those 5 minutes?"
> What should happen? Minato takes Obito's body and brings it to the black ops? Then Obito who preveded this spawns in the middle of the anbu headquarters? And none will sense him?
> 
> The road you're taking to give the win to Obito is rare, with unknown probabilityes and is basically "Minato wins so Obito needs to flee and attack Minato by surprise in another istance when he less expects it"


Danzo did not respawn immediately

I already posted the page when Danzo uses Izanagi for the first time

His body remains for a while in the Susanoo hand


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> How exactly did you figure out he was kneading chakra? Even if he was using a jutsu using chakra and kneading it to sense are 2 entirely different things. Obito was *BEHIND HIM* while he was still talking to himself, he was actually COMPLETELY off-guard here. Only barely before Obito touched him did he sense what was going on:


He is using handseal that is used to knead chakra universally in the manga Naruto

It was not said you need to knead chakra for sensing, Tobirama mentions just kneading chakra in general

Which also goes along with how sensing was portrayed - sensors being able to sense during fights even when not focusing on it 100% 

Well then Minato sensed him only when he actually started kneading chakra. He made the handseal preemptively before actually kneading




Artistwannabe said:


> Why would he be cautious about an opponent that he almost won against and only lost via a split-hair decision, while being WAY younger as well? He'd probably be even more confident as he almost won the last time and won't be falling for the same trick twice.


If he believes he has superior reflexes to his younger self, and it's true, then he wins without Izanagi

If he believes he does not have superior reflexes to his younger self, and it's true, then he activates Izanagi as a precaution

That's what I am saying


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> If he believes he has superior reflexes to his younger self, and it's true, then he wins without Izanagi
> 
> If he believes he does not have superior reflexes to his younger self, and it's true, then he activates Izanagi as a precaution
> 
> That's what I am saying




I will give you a win if all the if are as you said.

If the Izanagi is used mid-battle is either way.

If it is not used then it goes to Minato!


t0xeus said:


> He is using handseal that is used to knead chakra universally in the manga Naruto
> 
> It was not said you need to knead chakra for sensing, Tobirama mentions just kneading chakra in general
> 
> ...


This is what I was saying, you are searching for reasons to disprove panels and in the meantime using a lot of what if's for Obito.

Like Kamui is faster because he is now 30 years old aka fan fiction.

That is not a neutral stand point.

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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Ren. said:


> I will give you a win if all the if are as you said.


Cool, then we both agree that canon Obito wins here

That's all I wanted to hear!


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## trocollo (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Danzo did not respawn immediately
> 
> I already posted the page when Danzo uses Izanagi for the first time
> 
> His body remains for a while in the Susanoo hand


Isn't an usual time of the jutsu?
How should the user decide how much time lag they'll have before the respawn?
If the set moment is the death then Danzo's brain died shortly after the squash of the susanoo

Is explained somewhere how this thing work actually?


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## Artistwannabe (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> He is using handseal that is used to knead chakra universally in the manga Naruto
> 
> It was not said you need to knead chakra for sensing, Tobirama mentions just kneading chakra in general
> 
> ...



Here is Minato using chakra (Rasengan) and had to be reminded by Kurama to sense. Minato also senses in this page without any handsigns.


> If he believes he has superior reflexes to his younger self, and it's true, then he wins without Izanagi
> 
> If he believes he does not have superior reflexes to his younger self, and it's true, then he activates Izanagi as a precaution
> 
> That's what I am saying


As I said, the Madara persona is extremely cocky. Obito being "unsure" of his victory is not something we've seen, Obito either flat-out states he cannot beat somebody or he is sure of his victory.


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Isn't an usual time of the jutsu?
> How should the user decide how much time lag they'll have before the respawn?
> If the set moment is the death then Danzo's brain died shortly after the squash of the susanoo
> 
> Is explained somewhere how this thing work actually?


Dunno
This is one explanation

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




Anyways what I said holds true, as we've seen Danzo's body remain for a while before he respawns

So it is not instant like you claimed


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> Here is Minato using chakra (Rasengan) and had to be reminded by Kurama to sense. Minato also senses in this page without any handsigns.


Not reminded to sense.

He is reminded to sense *AGAIN*.

That is Kurama is telling Minato to actually pay attention to what his surroundings are.



Artistwannabe said:


> As I said, the Madara persona is extremely cocky. Obito being "unsure" of his victory is not something we've seen, Obito either flat-out states he cannot beat somebody or he is sure of his victory.


You would have a point if using Izanagi was something that handicaps Obito in some way.

The truth is that he has dozens of eyes so losing one eye means literally nothing.

If he doesn't believe this is a low/mid diff for him, using Izanagi is more worth it than risking his life. That's a fact


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## Artistwannabe (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Not reminded to sense.
> 
> He is reminded to sense *AGAIN*.
> 
> That is Kurama is telling Minato to actually pay attention to what his surroundings are.


So what I said, just reworded.  You literally just said he had to SENSE again as he was not sensing his surroundings at the time and had to be told by Kurama.



> [You would have a point if using Izanagi was something that handicaps Obito in some way.
> 
> The truth is that he has dozens of eyes so losing one eye means literally nothing.
> 
> If he doesn't believe this is a low/mid diff for him, using Izanagi is more worth it than risking his life. That's a fact


Obito used Izanagi once when he was in a dire situation. Never did he use it in the way you're describing so it's OOC. Obito doesn't need to think that Izanagi is a handicap but more or so that he is sure of his victory without any clutches because as I said Madara's persona is cocky. He barely won by a hair last time, why shouldn't he think he can pull it off this time without this stupid mistake? As I said, Obito and Madara are both cocky.

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## Artistwannabe (Jan 18, 2020)

Anyways I don't really have any time to debate (or for anything else) these days so I will leave it at that, agree to disagree @t0xeus

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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

Artistwannabe said:


> So what I said, just reworded.  You literally just said he had to SENSE again as he was not sensing his surroundings at the time and had to be told by Kurama.


He was sensing the whole time, just not paying attention to it

I'll give you a real life example:
You are watching a movie and you don't notice that something happens in the background of that scene
I say "Dude, look again what happened there!"

Does this mean you were not looking before I reminded you to look again? 



Artistwannabe said:


> Obito used Izanagi once when he was in a dire situation. Never did he use it in the way you're describing so it's OOC. Obito doesn't need to think that Izanagi is a handicap but more or so that he is sure of his victory without any clutches because as I said Madara's persona is cocky. He barely won by a hair last time, why shouldn't he think he can pull it off this time without this stupid mistake? As I said, Obito and Madara are both cocky.


He never fought someone again that would push him to limits like Minato before so that's a bad comparison

Madara is cocky yet he still used Izanagi in a fight against someone that he considers very strong

Same concept

Confidence is not ignorance


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## Steven (Jan 18, 2020)

Should i say it?

Yeah i will.

Kamui GG


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## trocollo (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Dunno
> This is one explanation
> *Spoiler*: *Link Removed*
> 
> ...


My claim where two if
Istant blindside
Waiting some minutes till Minato isn't in "fight mode"

With this seems the waiting isn't possible, so Obito will be detected beacause his presence will show up again


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

trocollo said:


> My claim where two if
> Istant blindside
> Waiting some minutes till Minato isn't in "fight mode"
> 
> With this seems the waiting isn't possible, so Obito will be detected beacause his presence will show up again


Why are few seconds not enough for Minato to drop his guard


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## Draco Bolton (Jan 18, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Beacause reverse summoning brings him to the place where the summon is, how should he return at the summit after that?


It's still better than staying in boxland. At least the summons realms are in the real world. You can reach Mount Myobuku by walking from Konoha, Kabuto found the snake kingdom. Then all Sasuke has to do is summon his falcon to fast fly away.

And then it's just a matter of heading to Konoha since Danzo fleeing the council has surely returned to the village. 

Sorry but waiting wisely makes no sense for this Sasuke who has the personality of a lone wolf.



trocollo said:


> I don't know if I agree with him, a better explanation of kamui would've cleared the supposistions
> Anyway, why if a dimension is a parallel one you need a unique special ability to exit it, but if it's some other kind of dimension then whatever S/T jutsu does the job? What property differentiates the parallel dimensions in this?
> If you just want to just argue that Obito's one is different for the Kaguya one's, sure, what I'm saying is that this isn't a proof of the fact that FTG wouldn't work there


The difference between parallel dimensions (like Kamui for me) and very distant dimensions (like Kaguya's)...is that Kaguya's dimensions are very distant but reachable on foot, physically (on foot Kaguya's dimensions would still be reachable even if it takes billions of years of walking).

The parallel dimensions are in another plane of existence. Even if you tried to reach them on foot, you couldn't reach them by rocket even after billions of years. You can't cross two parallel lines, ever.

For me, space-time ninjutsu (FTG, summons) work in the space-time continuum of Naruto, so technically it can work in the distant dimensions of Kaguya.

For Kamui, it's just the eye of Obito/Kakashi creating a unique portal to a parallel universe (boxland).* Boxland is always easily reachable from the Kaguya dimensions, it means that it always acts in parallel even there. There's no effort to reach it as Kaguya spends a lot of chakra to travel to her domains. It shows that Boxland is everywhere and strangely close to the world of Naruto. It exactly acts like how people imagine parallel universe.* You think this strange cubic world in complete darkness can be reached on foot or in rocket?

Other parallel dimension in this manga to me are: Limbo Hengoku world and the place where Obito/Rin meet.

That's how I see the things.



trocollo said:


> Naruto's link is different from FTG, Tobirama explained he had to resonate the clones, and there was no portal open for kamui so Naruto couldn't send his chakra there


If Kamui is in the same verse (like Kaguya worlds, summons kingdom) than Naruto world (and not a parallel dimension) then the share of chakra should be working. You think physical distance (between two points in the same verse) can affects instant chakra sharing?



trocollo said:


> Whoa sure, seems cool, still he had to save the alliance and then they fought against the ten tails and such, so he had his things keeping him occupied



When the Hokage were in the room with Orochimaru and Taka...didn't they know that Juubi was wreaking havoc? One of the first things to do, once they were allowed to join the war, would have been for Minato to teleport to Masked Man (whom he thinks is Madara and who he scored. Since Orochimaru said that Madara is responsible for the war).

Logic would have it that it was the right thing for Minato to do before joining the battle. Fortunately for you, we don't know if he did it.  For me he tried to do it but since Obito was in boxland with Kakashi... Well, that's all speculation, so I won't dwell on it.



trocollo said:


> But even like this, we can say that Obito can chose where to send the people that he brings in kamui-land and still we have to also say that FTG doesn't work to escape it, at this point woudn't work better what I said earlyer on deactivating his MS to destroy the kamui dimension?


It's not possible otherwise Sasuke/Karin/Fu/Torune would have been killed by the destruction of the dimension. Obito is often see with 3 tomoe (no MS pattern) even when there is someone in Kamui world.

What I think is that boxland acts as a parallel dimension (not a distant dimension) completely inaccessible without the eye of Obito/Kakashi.

Kamui's just not a space-time ninjutsu like FTG. IMO It acts mainly as a means of switching between Boxland (which has the characteristics of a parallel universe) and Narutoverse (including Kaguya worlds).

FTG doesn't allow you to do that in all likelihood.

To illustrate this: Do you think Minato could have teleported (assuming Obito still has the FTG mark) alongside Obito and Rin when they were reunited in purgatory (which I see as a parallel universe)? Do you think FTG allows you to jump from dimension to dimension. Through a multiverse potential? Do you think Minato could come back from Pure Land with FTG?

Obito's confidence, Kamui portrayal, and for the plot there is zero interest in creating false suspense during Obito vs Minato (no need to stress to avoid absorption if you can easily get out of boxland)? I think FTG only works in the Narutoverse dimension and can't escape Kamui.


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## Ren. (Jan 18, 2020)

Acno said:


> Should i say it?
> 
> Yeah i will.
> 
> Kamui GG


Wrong


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 18, 2020)

Hasan said:


> I can see that. All I have said is that it denotes the handseal for Hiraishin, which you evidently aren't denying, and argued that Kishimoto intentionally drew it that way so that the readers don't end up getting confused, because these kind of events are extremely difficult to depict on a paper. I am asking you how did you come to the conclusion that being incomplete is a significant point, when I argued along the lines of a basic design principle that designers in pretty much field recognize? If you still don't understand, that panel is an example of _an intentionally bad Photoshop_ to convey a point.



The significance of incompleteness is that Minato had *not yet teleported, disproving the idea that he had a head start, which was your original point.*



> You can't hear music after it's ended.



Sure.

How about before it starts?



The seal of confrontation does not require SFX.

So let's get back to some hand holding here.

When you make an argument predicated on SFX, but the manga establishes that the seal in question does not use SFX, (specifically in this narrative) then your premise fails.

So again, hard no on the SFX argument.



> The honour is mine: When Obito tries to  warp, he tries to make physical contact with the target by trying to grab said target. He practically announces, through his physical gesture, that he's trying to warp. How on earth is that not a "warning sign"? In fact, that's how Minato secured that split-second interval. If he's capable of timing his attack when's Obito arm was this close (see below), then it's out of question that he's completely capable of timing his attack even simultaneously irrespective of when Obito used Kamui. The timing is reliant upon the physical gesture, and Minato explains all this before stating the whoever wins comment.



Headcanon.

Both Minato and Obito believed the first to strike would win. Since touching is a requirement of Kamui, this could not be true if *your premise is to be believed*. As a result your premise is discarded because it's contrary to the narrative.




> I am, and I am arguing that _simultaneous use_ is in *contradiction *with the whole 'whoever strikes first' narrative.



It's not a contradiction.

In fact it's the most likely scenario.



> Obito "hesitating" / the so-called warning sign is an _*inherent drawback *_of Obito's Kamui:



The hesitation is in the activation of Kamui when Obito makes contact. The hesitation isn't the contact itself. You have conflated two items that are contrary to what was established.



"Next time I will warp *the moment I lay my hand on you*."

Your interpretation goes against the narrative.



> If Minato wants to time his attack a _split-second before_ Obito makes contact, then he needs to pay attention to the latter's hand. If he wishes to time the attack _simultaneously_ with Obito's warp, then he needs to pay attention to... _you guessed it_... the same hand.



The hand isn't the trigger for the simultaneous reactions in their first encounter - It was Obito's *hesitation*.

These are two distinctly different items as outlined by *Obito himself*.

You are running with a false premise that is contrary to what the narrative has told us.

I wonder if you will see the error of your ways?


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## trocollo (Jan 18, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Why are few seconds not enough for Minato to drop his guard


Beacause there is no dropping of the guard, what happens after Minato kills Obito?
He just sits there and does nothing?
Does he try to take the body to teleport it somewhere at the anbu?
He does a quick sensory control of Obito's chakra to assure that he is dead?

Like what should happen for Minato to just go from heated battle, to relaxation in two seconds?




Draco Bolton said:


> It's still better than staying in boxland. At least the summons realms are in the real world. You can reach Mount Myobuku by walking from Konoha, Kabuto found the serpent kingdom. Then all Sasuke has to do is summon his falcon to fast fly away.
> 
> And then it's just a matter of heading to Konoha since Danzo fleeing the council has surely returned to the village.
> 
> Sorry but waiting wisely makes no sense for this Sasuke who has the personality of a lone wolf.


Having the personality of a lone wolf doesn't mean he'll take the edgy decision, he still made a team, and he reached Danzo, there is no point in go away beacause he has to be a lone wolf




Draco Bolton said:


> The difference between parallel dimensions (like Kamui for me) and very distant dimensions (like Kaguya's)...is that Kaguya's dimensions are very distant but reachable on foot, physically (on foot Kaguya's dimensions would still be reachable even if it takes billions of years of walking).
> 
> The parallel dimensions are in another plane of existence. Even if you tried to reach them on foot, you couldn't reach them by rocket even after billions of years. You can't cross two parallel lines, ever.
> 
> For me, space-time ninjutsu (FTG, summons) work in the space-time continuum of Naruto, so technically it can work in the distant dimensions of Kaguya.


Wait but this means that that isn't another dimension, like, I can't enter in the third spacial dimension by walking on a two-dimensional plane, like and human that can neither jump or dig, and is walking on the earth, he can only move in a two dimensial plane, giving that this plane is actually a sphere in 3D the human can do things like walk a lot foward till he reaches the point from which he started, but how should he slip in another 2D plane from that one?




Draco Bolton said:


> For Kamui, it's just the eye of Obito/Kakashi creating a unique portal to a parallel universe (boxland).* Boxland is always easily reachable from the Kaguya dimensions, it means that it always acts in parallel even there. There's no effort to reach it as Kaguya spends a lot of chakra to travel to her domains. It shows that Boxland is everywhere and strangely close to the world of Naruto. It exactly acts like how people imagine parallel universe.* You think this strange cubic world in complete darkness can be reached on foot or in rocket?
> 
> Other parallel dimension in this manga to me are: Limbo Hengoku world and the place where Obito/Rin meet.
> 
> That's how I see the things.


Isn't Kamui in the right eye of Obito? Like poket-dimension and such, he has it everywere beacause it's always with him, you spoke of it like it's a presenting one and for some reason Obito's eye linked to it, doesn't Obito says thing like "I'm in control here" or I just imagined it (cause I don't remember too well these things lol)




Draco Bolton said:


> If Kamui is in the same verse (like Kaguya worlds, summons kingdom) than Naruto world (and not a parallel dimension) then the share of chakra should be working. You think physical distance (between two points in the same verse) can affects instant chakra sharing?


Well more or less, chakra should also have a travel speed and we don't know how it propagates




Draco Bolton said:


> When the Hokage were in the room with Orochimaru and Taka...didn't they know that Juubi was wreaking havoc? One of the first things to do, once they were allowed to join the war, would have been for Minato to teleport to Masked Man (whom he thinks is Madara and who he scored. Since Orochimaru said that Madara is responsible for the war).
> 
> Logic would have it that it was the right thing for Minato to do before joining the battle. Fortunately for you, we don't know if he did it. For me he tried to do it but since Obito was in boxland with Kakashi... Well, that's all speculation, so I won't dwell on it.


Lol guess I'll go with the luck




Draco Bolton said:


> It's not possible otherwise Sasuke/Karin/Fu/Torune would have been killed by the destruction of the dimension. Obito is often see with 3 tomoe (no MS pattern) even when there is someone in Kamui world.


Ah, that was cool though, are you sure he is seen with the 3T while someone is in it?



Draco Bolton said:


> What I think is that boxland acts as a parallel dimension (not a distant dimension) completely inaccessible without the eye of Obito/Kakashi.
> 
> Kamui's just not a space-time ninjutsu like FTG. IMO It acts mainly as a means of switching between Boxland (which has the characteristics of a parallel universe) and Narutoverse (including Kaguya worlds).
> 
> ...


I don't know if it can do that, but edo tensei can summon the souls and Hagoromo also summoned the souls of the other kage, so summoning from the pure land is a thing




Draco Bolton said:


> Obito's confidence, Kamui portrayal, and for the plot there is zero interest in creating false suspense during Obito vs Minato (no need to stress to avoid absorption if you can easily get out of boxland)? I think FTG only works in the Narutoverse dimension and can't escape Kamui.


Yep this is the principal point, makes no sense if Minato can get out, but Obito shoved to underestimate FTG, he even flee away after being marked
Other opion I can see is the creation and destruction of kamui, but you debunked it
Or Idk, maybe Obito can easly cast genjustu on those that are in it?


----------



## Draco Bolton (Jan 18, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Wait but this means that that isn't another dimension, like, I can't enter in the third spacial dimension by walking on a two-dimensional plane, like and human that can neither jump or dig, and is walking on the earth, he can only move in a two dimensial plane, giving that this plane is actually a sphere in 3D the human can do things like walk a lot foward till he reaches the point from which he started, but how should he slip in another 2D plane from that one?


? Walk, fly... use a rocket... whatever. What I mean is that with this kind of thing in our 3 dimensional universe (4 with time) you can't reach hypothetical parallel universes just by traveling the way you would travel from the earth to the moon or Tokyo to San francisco in boat or your home to your work by walking or with a bike...

For me it's the same with the world of Naruto. Kamui is not in this universe so no matter the traditionals means (to move in 2D or 3D) we can't access it contrary to the dimensions of Kaguya which are just very far away.



trocollo said:


> Isn't Kamui in the right eye of Obito? Like poket-dimension and such, he has it everywere beacause it's always with him, you spoke of it like it's a presenting one and for some reason Obito's eye linked to it, doesn't Obito says thing like "I'm in control here" or I just imagined it (cause I don't remember too well these things lol)


Kamui cannot reside only in Obito's eye. To me it's impossible. That would mean that when he uses Kamui to enter boxland, his eye would have to remain in Naruto's world (and it would be impossible for Obito to make his eye immaterial).

And in boxland Obito/Kakashi do have their Sharingan.

His eye is just the way to creates a kind of wormhole to enter. It's so crazy if the dimension resides in his eye but he absorbs himself completely (with his eye) in this dimension.

In addition, the fact that Naruto and Kakashi launch attacks in Kamui to hit Obito parallel to where he is immaterial in the real world shows that the dimension is indeed there, and not just in Obito's eye, but in a parallel way.

I don't remember Obito saying he had full control, but I'll come back to that later with the genjutsu theory.



trocollo said:


> Well more or less, chakra should also have a travel speed and we don't know how it propagates


Perhaps. But if boxland was a dimension in the real world then it would be very very close since Obito can go there very easily (whereas for Kaguya she needs infinite amounts of chakra to travel) and so I don't see why Kakashi wouldn't have been reached.

Other question ? Do you think clone information have a travel speed ?

*Link Removed* then he, in an other Kaguya world, *Link Removed*.

Despite the distance, the transfer of information from the clone was instantaneous. There are some simultenesses.

I wouldn't be surprised if we had something similar with the chakra.

For example, if Naruto decides to cancel his clone in another dimension of Kaguya. You don't think he'd be able to do that? That it wouldn't be instantaneous. It seems to me it has something to do with the chakra that.



trocollo said:


> Ah, that was cool though, are you sure he is seen with the 3T while someone is in it?


*Link Removed*

Sasuke and Karin are in Kamui.



trocollo said:


> I don't know if it can do that, but edo tensei can summon the souls and Hagoromo also summoned the souls of the other kage, so summoning from the pure land is a thing


Yes but it's a very special summon. It's not the typical summoning jutsu.

Otherwise it would be enough just to have made a pact with someone (the classic pact. Like what Naruto did with Bunta) and then summons him normally from Pure Land and bring him back to life.



trocollo said:


> Yep this is the principal point, makes no sense if Minato can get out, but Obito shoved to underestimate FTG, he even flee away after being marked
> Other opion I can see is the creation and destruction of kamui, but you debunked it
> Or Idk, maybe Obito can easly cast genjustu on those that are in it?


Obito underestimated FTG, he says so himself. But he was still sure he could defeat Minato if he absorbed him, despite Minato troll teleportation.

And he fled cuz he's marked him (very dangerous) and took control of Kyuubi away from him. There was no chance for teenage Obito to win and do what he wanted there. He chose not to take any risks.

And yeah,there is the genjutsu theory. That's another theory.

I also think it's possible that the reason Obito is so confident is that he can place genjutsu in the entrance to his victims. Just look at Fuu and Torune under genjutsu (maybe Torune was already under genjutsu when Obito became intangible in front of Fu).

But it depends on Obito's will. He may not launch this genjutsu: That's why Sasuke and Karin wouldn't have been affected because he considers them as his allies.

As for the fact that he absorbed Kakashi and got nothing... Either again it's because Kakashi has the other Kamui or Obito deliberately spared him because he wanted to be attacked by the chidori on his heart as I said before.


----------



## Marvel (Jan 18, 2020)

Sufex said:


> @Marvel
> 
> If you wanted to see the new gen debate
> 
> ...


Not particularly impressive but at least they know what they're talking about. Tox is a known Minato hater and he has a fetish of some sort.


----------



## Marvel (Jan 18, 2020)

Minato wins. You'd have to prove Obito's Kamui speed got faster in order to say he wins.
Burden of Proof.

Amaterasu speed doesn't increase,Susanoo Arrow speed dosen't increase,Kakashi's Kamui speed didn't increase after he learned how to use it proficiently.

So no reason why Obito's gets faster when he's already shown the ability to use it proficiently.


----------



## trocollo (Jan 18, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> ? Walk, fly... use a rocket... whatever.


No I said can't fly and can't dig, the point is that you go from a dimension to another just by moving yourself in that dimension, you can't do that, so with this:


Draco Bolton said:


> What I mean is that with this kind of thing in our 3 dimensional universe (4 with time) you can't reach hypothetical parallel universes just by traveling the way you would travel from the earth to the moon or Tokyo to San francisco in boat or your home to your work by walking or with a bike...
> 
> For me it's the same with the world of Naruto. Kamui is not in this universe so no matter the traditionals means (to move in 2D or 3D) we can't access it contrary to the dimensions of Kaguya which are just very far away.


What you're saying is that that dimension is another universe that is located "after" the one Naruto is in?
Like in the same spacial dimension there are more universes and by moving "foward" you can exit one and enter another?




Draco Bolton said:


> Kamui cannot reside only in Obito's eye. To me it's impossible. That would mean that when he uses Kamui to enter boxland, his eye would have to remain in Naruto's world (and it would be impossible for Obito to make his eye immaterial).
> 
> And in boxland Obito/Kakashi do have their Sharingan.


I mean like Kamui is some kind of chakra singularity/portal in his eye that Obito can open to swirl inside and the eye also enters till only 1 point with no leght nor height nor width remains



Draco Bolton said:


> His eye is just the way to creates a kind of wormhole to enter. It's so crazy if the dimension resides in his eye but he absorbs himself completely (with his eye) in this dimension.
> 
> In addition, the fact that Naruto and Kakashi launch attacks in Kamui to hit Obito parallel to where he is immaterial in the real world shows that the dimension is indeed there, and not just in Obito's eye, but in a parallel way.
> 
> I don't remember Obito saying he had full control, but I'll come back to that later with the genjutsu theory.


Guess it works better if the dimension is already there, but Kakashi's kamui is just another portal to it




Draco Bolton said:


> Perhaps. But if boxland was a dimension in the real world then it would be very very close since Obito can go there very easily (whereas for Kaguya she needs infinite amounts of chakra to travel) and so I don't see why Kakashi wouldn't have been reached.
> 
> Other question ? Do you think clone information have a travel speed ?
> 
> *Link Removed* then he, in an other Kaguya world, *Link Removed*.


But the clone was in the dimension that linked all of them




Draco Bolton said:


> Despite the distance, the transfer of information from the clone was instantaneous. There are some simultenesses.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if we had something similar with the chakra.
> 
> For example, if Naruto decides to cancel his clone in another dimension of Kaguya. You don't think he'd be able to do that? That it wouldn't be instantaneous. It seems to me it has something to do with the chakra that.


It appears to be fast noneteless, but I don't think it made a infinite distance, and Naruto can't decide to relase a clone, it's a clone that decides to relase himself (uless Naruto can send his throught to his clones)




Draco Bolton said:


> *Link Removed*
> 
> Sasuke and Karin are in Kamui.


Gotta make a super concession then!
It's strange to think that alredy existed but it's the most probable thing at the moment




Draco Bolton said:


> Yes but it's a very special summon. It's not the typical summoning jutsu.
> 
> Otherwise it would be enough just to have made a pact with someone (the classic pact. Like what Naruto did with Bunta) and then invoke him normally from Pure Land and bring him back to life.


Yes and also FTG is different, in the edo tensei isn't clear how you summon the soul but you can do that without the usual pact




Draco Bolton said:


> Obito underestimated FTG, he says so himself. But he was still sure he could defeat Minato if he absorbed him, despite Minato troll teleportation.
> 
> And he fled cuz he's marked him (very dangerous) and took control of Kyuubi away from him. There was no chance for teenage Obito to win and do what he wanted there. He chose not to take any risks.
> 
> ...


Ok so basically we can go with both, if we suppose that Obito had a reasonable plan then or Minato can't use FTG in kamui or Obito has genjutsu hax in his dimension


----------



## Hasan (Jan 18, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> The significance of incompleteness is that Minato had *not yet teleported, disproving the idea that he had a head start, which was your original point.*


I understand what you're getting at with this "incomplete" handseal. I am asking from where did this "incompleteness" sprout? If anything, it's showing that Minato used Hiraishin with an 'incomplete' handseal. He can use Hiraishin without any seals; those two neighbouring feats are the only ones when the author explicitly shows Hiraishin being used via a handseal.



> Sure.
> 
> How about before it starts?
> 
> ...



SFX aren't tied to _any _handseals. They just denote sounds and movements, and one SFX can be used for variety of movements. The same _FSH_/_WSP_ is also used for Hiraishin, and Guy's _inhuman movement that caught Madara off-guard._

... Let's go to the _academy _first, and pay a visit Iruka-sensei, the undisputed authority when it comes to shinobi knowledge:
​How about _this_?


​You asked how did I get my argument from those _static_ pages. Simple: SFX, because that's what they are *for. *If there are no SFX, then the movement _whatever it may be_ was already performed. Why don't you try forming this _handseal of confrontation yourself_?  



> Both Minato and Obito believed the first to strike would win.


I agree—



> Since touching is a requirement of Kamui, this could not be true if *your premise is to be believed*. As a result your premise is discarded because it's contrary to the narrative.


... And what is my premise?



> The hesitation is in the activation of Kamui when Obito makes contact. The hesitation isn't the contact itself. You have conflated two items that are contrary to what was established.
> 
> 
> 
> "Next time I will warp *the moment I lay my hand on you*."


This is what I said, and _always_ did. I literally quoted Obito in one of the previous posts, and explained it in another.



> The hand isn't the trigger for the simultaneous reactions in their first encounter - It was Obito's *hesitation*.
> 
> These are two distinctly different items as outlined by *Obito himself*.



Try reading that _hesitation_ in conjunction with what we know about Obito's Kamui, and then tie with the idea that it would have worked as the manga states. Minato only got caught because he had *no *knowledge. Once he understood how Kamui worked, there was nothing preventing him from being able to time his attacks _however he wanted—_even simultaneously. He wouldn't even have gotten caught, if he knew how Kamui worked.


----------



## Shazam (Jan 18, 2020)

With intel on Kamui, Minato is always a step ahead with FTG


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jan 18, 2020)

Hasan said:


> I understand what you're getting at with this "incomplete" handseal. I am asking from where did this "incompleteness" sprout? If anything, it's showing that Minato used Hiraishin with an 'incomplete' handseal. He can use Hiraishin without any seals; those two neighbouring feats are the only ones when the author explicitly shows Hiraishin being used via a handseal.



Dude, your premise is the use of the hand seal denotes FTG, yet if the hand seal is incomplete then he *couldn't have used FTG*.

If you don't believe this is the seal of confrontation then this hand sign *does not denote anything*.

The third option that it's a random hand sign that magically denotes FTG is headcanon and will be discarded if you choose to pursue it.



> SFX aren't tied to _any _handseals. They just denote sounds and movements, and one SFX can be used for variety of movements. The same _FSH_/_WSP_ is also used for Hiraishin, and Guy's _inhuman movement that caught Madara off-guard._



The SFX for FTG happens *post FTG*.



This is denoted by "FFP" which occurs after Minato warps.

Ironically the more you continue the more evidence is uncovered supporting the mid warp argument.

Hmmmm



> ... Let's go to the _academy _first, and pay a visit Iruka-sensei, the undisputed authority when it comes to shinobi knowledge:
> ​How about _this_?
> 
> 
> ​You asked how did I get my argument from those _static_ pages. Simple: SFX, because that's what they are *for. *If there are no SFX, then the movement _whatever it may be_ was already performed. Why don't you try forming this _handseal of confrontation yourself_?



It's rhetorical. It was a polite way of saying you don't have a clue what you're talking about.



> I agree—



Fair enough.



> Humor me, what is my premise?



That Minato had a head start 

Unless you actually have some super secret premise that is unrelated to what you posted.




> This





> is what I said, and _always_ did. I literally quoted Obito in one of the previous posts, and explained it in another.



If you say something but then support a different view, then you aren't supporting what was said.

The facts are Obito feels he wins if he doesn't hesitate. Apparently so does Minato. Contact is not hesitation, the speed at which Obito acts is.



> Try reading that _hesitation_ in conjunction with what we know about Obito's Kamui,



The manga disagrees.

If the "mechanics' of Kamui were the bottleneck then Obito could never win. Since the narrative tells us he who strikes first wins, your point is proven to be false.



> and then tie with the idea that it would have worked as the manga states. Minato only got caught because he had *no *knowledge. Once he understood how Kamui worked, there was nothing preventing him from being able to time his attacks _however he wanted—_even simultaneously. He wouldn't even have gotten caught, if he knew how Kamui worked.



The manga indicates the opposite.

I will go with the manga.

Thanks.


----------



## Hasan (Jan 18, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Dude, your premise is the use of the hand seal denotes FTG, yet if the hand seal is incomplete then he *couldn't have used FTG*.
> 
> If you don't believe this is the seal of confrontation then this hand sign *does not denote anything*.
> 
> The third option that it's a random hand sign that magically denotes FTG is headcanon and will be discarded if you choose to pursue it.


_I know what you're saying_. You argued that it's an "incomplete" seal. I am telling you (not asking) to post the scans which shows that if the seal is not 100% perfect, technique isn't executed, because you made that point. You don't have a point unless you justify it using the manga. I already clarified why I think that 'incompleteness' is a moot point. It's irrelevant whether you agree with that or not.



> The SFX for FTG happens *post FTG*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What does this have to do with anything I said about SFX? 



> It's rhetorical. It was a polite way of saying you don't have a clue what you're talking about.


Rhetorical, sure. I see that we have moved away from the handseal of confrontation requiring no SFX. 



> That Minato had a head start
> 
> Unless you actually have some super secret premise that is unrelated to what you posted.
> 
> ...


Exactly why I said this _earlier—
_


Hasan said:


> I don't care that you don't care. I only care about the fact that most posters, whether they agree with me or not, are familiar with my stance that I don't feel the need to write a doctoral thesis. As such they understand the point, even if I'm not going into further details. If a poster doesn't understand my point, I hope that he or she gives me enough respect to ask what the hell am I trying to say with these 'ramblings'.  You're not even making an effort to understand what I am even saying, but pretending that you have.



You're accusing me of denying the very things that I have _actually argued._


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jan 18, 2020)

Hasan said:


> _I know what you're saying_. You argued that it's an "incomplete" seal. I am telling you (not asking) to post the scans which shows that if the seal is not 100% perfect, technique isn't executed, because you made that point. You don't have a point unless you justify it using the manga. I already clarified why I think that 'incompleteness' is a moot point. It's irrelevant whether you agree with that or not.



How about no?

How about you prove he can FTG with a peace sign since it's *your claim*.

See you just telling us that his hands are making an FTG seal don't make it true. Try providing some evidence.



> What does this have to do with anything I said about SFX?



The lack of SFX in the panel in question doesn't indicate anything regarding the timing of FTG.

As a result any argument based on SFX is invalid.



> Rhetorical, sure. I see that we have moved away from the handseal of confrontation requiring no SFX.



We have moved away from it because the seal of confrontation does not have SFX.

I'm steering the conversation away from fanfiction.



> Exactly why I said this _earlier—_
> 
> You're accusing me of denying the very things that I have _actually argued._



So you've changed your mind on Minato having a head start then?

Fair enough.


----------



## Draco Bolton (Jan 18, 2020)

trocollo said:


> What you're saying is that that dimension is another universe that is located "after" the one Naruto is in?
> Like in the same spacial dimension there are more universes and by moving "foward" you can exit one and enter another?


I'm just saying there's some kind of mirror universe.

It's part of the multiverse theory, it's also part of the fiction.

It's kind of like the Upside Down of Stranger Things. An other world that can only be reached through special portals, at the same time very close but inaccessible.

Then in the case of Boxland it's not the exact replica of Naruto's world.It's not necessary to be the exact replica.



trocollo said:


> But the clone was in the dimension that linked all of them


Yes, but without a portal, the dimensions of the original and the clone are very distant. So with the cancellation of the clone, the information arrived instantly to the original which was very very far away (maybe light years away). This means that some things happen instantly.

I'll have to see if the chakra sharing of Naruto (sort of ninshu wanted by Hagoromo. The fact of being able to communicate without talking, of being all connected) has this effect of instantaneity. I wouldn't be surprised. With this faculty, I think that all the ninjas could have been connected all together without any distance constraint.

I'm sure no one ever thought to discuss this.

So either the chakra reaches Kakashi (because Kamui is in the same world) and so FTG still fail lol.

Or the chakra doesn't reach him and it would surprise me if FTG works (in both case FTG fail in fact). *Cuz it shown that a chakra connection can't be maintained between the two dimensions, *

Minato has stated that he has to be able to feel the chakra of his seal to be able to teleport to it. *There's no way he can do that from Kamui, since it has already been stated that the dimension shares no links to the "real world" whatsoever.
*
FTG requires a seal which is filled with Minatos chakra. This chakra creates a link between him and his tag and explains why minato is able to teleport people that are in contact with his chakra.

Obito is also able to completely erase his chakra (sensors can't sense him) when he is fully warped inside kamui, why is that? It's simple really, he is no longer a part of the natural realm and so he technically doesn't exist in it either, making him undetectable to sensors because his level of existence is zero

And:
*Link Removed*

I just had an epiphany  lol.

In any case, whether it's parallel dimension, sealed dimension or super genjutsu, I don't see Minato escaping if he's absorbed in boxland (why the hell was Obito trying to warp Minato in the first place, if he knew Minato could just escape at any time? Even if Obito doesn't know perfectly FTG, it's troll for the Minato vs Obito fight). All of this convinced me even more.


----------



## Hasan (Jan 18, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> How about no?


Well, what would I _gain_ or _lose_ from you not going to back up _your _argument? Nothing. 



> How about you prove he can FTG with a peace sign since it's *your claim*.
> 
> We have moved away from it because the seal of confrontation does not have SFX.


1. How about you read?




2. You are now attributing to me something I _never_ even claimed? Amusing.



> See you just telling us that his hands are making an FTG seal don't make it true. Try providing some evidence.


I already did. _Try _reading the earlier posts. You ignored it while you're busy bickering over pointless details (e.g. the midwarp escape). It took you several posts to _begin addressing_ something that should have been your 2nd response. At this point, I don't even care. 



> The lack of SFX in the panel in question doesn't indicate anything regarding the timing of FTG.
> 
> As a result any argument based on SFX is invalid.


Deflection, I see. I was talking about what Hiraishin's SFX shown _post-use _and that it's _FFP_ has to do with my point regarding what SFXs are?



> So you've changed your mind on Minato having a head start then?
> 
> Fair enough.


No. I am convinced that you have absolutely no idea what you're even talking about when trying to _steer the discussion_ _away_ _from fanfiction.
_
1. Obito didn't immediately use Kamui after grabbing Minato's arm, which is why Minato escaped.
2. The manga clearly states that _whoever strikes a split-second earlier will win the battle_.
3. Minato vs. Obito is perfectly consistent.

These 3 points are the *cornerstone *of my argument. It's _*why*_ I argue neither simultaneous use nor the midwarp-escape happened. You have spent past several posts arguing over semantics, and in the process (I will be direct) moronically claimed that I am denying that the manga made clear, 1 and 2 (3 is just my fundamental assumption). 



ShinAkuma said:


> That would actually qualify as _simultaneous_ not FTG headstart.
> 
> 
> Hasan said:
> ...


----------



## trocollo (Jan 18, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> I'm just saying there's some kind of mirror universe.
> 
> It's part of the multiverse theory, it's also part of the fiction.
> 
> ...


I meant the kaguya one in that, I get that you're using the multiverse theory or something for kamui but the question was on the kaguya's one




Draco Bolton said:


> Yes, but without a portal, the dimensions of the original and the clone are very distant. So with the cancellation of the clone, the information arrived instantly to the original which was very very far away (maybe light years away). This means that some things happen instantly.


Wait, that was fast but it's not shown to be exactly istantaneous and given that the dimension are linked probably with chakra hax-s then the chakra could probably directly travel the dimension, whitout the "crossing long distance" thing




Draco Bolton said:


> I'll have to see if the chakra sharing of Naruto (sort of ninshu wanted by Hagoromo. The fact of being able to communicate without talking, of being all connected) has this effect of instantaneity. I wouldn't be surprised. With this faculty, I think that all the ninjas could have been connected all together without any distance constraint.
> 
> I'm sure no one ever thought to discuss this.


Well information should have somewhat of a cap at the speed of light, so shouldn't be impossible




Draco Bolton said:


> *There's no way he can do that from Kamui, since it has already been stated that the dimension shares no links to the "real world" whatsoever.*


The link doesn't work but if it's true then we got the response, he surely can't sense chakra across dimensions, just like Naruto couldn't sense Sasuke's chakra




Draco Bolton said:


> FTG requires a seal which is filled with Minatos chakra. This chakra creates a link between him and his tag and explains why minato is able to teleport people that are in contact with his chakra.
> 
> Obito is also able to completely erase his chakra (sensors can't sense him) when he is fully warped inside kamui, why is that? It's simple really, he is no longer a part of the natural realm and so he technically doesn't exist in it either, making him undetectable to sensors because his level of existence is zero
> 
> ...


Sure just reupload the link above and we're done lol


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## Draco Bolton (Jan 18, 2020)

trocollo said:


> The link doesn't work but if it's true then we got the response, he surely can't sense chakra across dimensions, just like Naruto couldn't sense Sasuke's chakra


 

Minato is alerted by the mark that is a jutsu. It cleary chakra linked. That's why it make teleportation possible.

FTG works by Minato being able to teleport to anything or anything to himself that is in contact with his chakra. That's how he's able to teleport to the FTG kunai, they are in contact with his chakra, the markings.

If not his chakra, what are they made of? The FTG marking never disappears, so it can't be ink. The only reasonable conclusion is that it is comprised of a seal of Minato's chakra, similar to the chakra he sealed into Naruto's stomach to meet him one day.

Minato places them almost instantly with a touch, obviously imbuing them with his chakra signature. They couldn't be made any other way.

So

Obito can't be sensed when he is in Kamui (sensor Fuu can't sense him), so Minato can't sense the mark on Obito back in Kamui.

Conclusion: Minato can't reach the mark in Kamui. Minato can't reach Kamui. And vice versa. He can't leave Kamui in it.


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## trocollo (Jan 18, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> Minato is alerted by the mark that is a jutsu. It cleary chakra linked. That's why it make teleportation possible.


I don't think Makes all his seals so that he is alerted when they move, these are special ones




Draco Bolton said:


> FTG works by Minato being able to teleport to anything or anything to himself that is in contact with his chakra. That's how he's able to teleport to the FTG kunai, they are in contact with his chakra, the markings.


That's not "how he is able to teleport to his kunai", you said "what Minato can do with FTG"




Draco Bolton said:


> If not his chakra, what are they made of? The FTG marking never disappears, so it can't be ink. The only reasonable conclusion is that it is comprised of a seal of Minato's chakra, similar to the chakra he sealed into Naruto's stomach to meet him one day.
> 
> Minato places them almost instantly with a touch, obviously imbuing them with his chakra signature. They couldn't be made any other way.


Sure it's a chakra thing




Draco Bolton said:


> So
> 
> Obito can't be sensed when he is in Kamui (sensor Fuu can't sense him), so Minato can't sense the mark on Obito back in Kamui.


Yes he won't be notified by the special mark




Draco Bolton said:


> Conclusion: Minato can't reach the mark in Kamui. Minato can't reach Kamui. And vice versa. He can't leave Kamui in it.


Nope, not all markings should also have this feature, FTG is like a reverse summon, what won't work is the special feature of alerting him


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2020)

@ShinAkuma is being pushed to his limits here by @Hasan . I am concerned about Shin's career.


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## Draco Bolton (Jan 18, 2020)

trocollo said:


> FTG is like a reverse summon, what won't work is the special feature of alerting him


I'm just going to respond to that as the debate becomes more and more complex lol, I've decided to look for something far more clearer.




I don't remember if you said it (when we talked about the comparison with SM Jiraya dimension and Animal Path), I think you said it, you were right then.

*Kamui is a sealed dimension.*

So it's at least the same case as the sealed dimension in the gourd toad where SM Jiraya locked Animal Path.

Nagato couldn't save Animal Path by summoning him in person. He create a new Animal Path.

Reverse Summoning can't work (and it would be dumb to escape a sealed world just like that). FTG is a kind of reverse summoning too like you said.

Conclusion:

FTG can't work and escape Kamui.

And Kaguya worlds aren't sealed dimensions. Just far away worlds where Sasuke still could summon his hawk.

With all the debate we've had (especially the fact that Minato vs Obito would have been a big plot troll if Minato could escape), I think you'd agree that Minato can't escape ?


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 18, 2020)

Obito literally cannot react to FTG as faster more reactive folk that his adult self have tried and failed

And Obito literally cannot do shit to Minato with Kamui as FTG has escaped Obitos Kamui attempt MID FUCKING WARP on panel

Inb4 the "instant Kamui" argument that factually doesnt exist

*Link Removed*...Time that can barely outspeed TSBs...TSBs Minatos FTG can neg...

Even DMS Kakashis warps were not instant...Which means any warp attempt Obito tries will be negged.

Nothing obito can do here

Period

Call it due to matchup reasons if nothing else if that helps ease the burn for you, but no version of Obito without SIx Paths powers of some kind is taking down Minato 

Minato can force physical contact with Obito during a Kamui BFR attempt, or simply dive in at Obito and allow Obito to try for a free BFR attempt he knows he will be safe from in order to place a FTG tramp stamp, from there it sover.

Lvl 2 is also still blitzing obito


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 18, 2020)

Hasan said:


> Well, what would I _gain_ or _lose_ from you not going to back up _your _argument? Nothing.



My argument is that peace sign is not the seal of confrontation, which I already proved.

It's your random speculation that he can port with a peace sign.

So prove it.



> 1. How about you read?



Oh look, that *isn't a peace sign.*

Concession accepted.



> 2. You are now attributing to me something I _never_ even claimed? Amusing.



Ok good. It's not the FTG seal.

We go back to - "If you don't believe this is the seal of confrontation then this hand sign *does not denote anything*."



> I already did.


_
I know. I pointed out why you were wrong.
_
The seal of confrontation is not a peace sign. Minato is midway forming the seal in the first pic.

No head start.



> Deflection, I see. I was talking about what Hiraishin's SFX shown _post-use _and that it's _FFP_ has to do with my point regarding what SFXs are?



I will tell you what it has to do with - Your points on SFX is pure fanfiction. There is no hard fast rule, so you can't lean an argument on it.




> No. I am convinced that you have absolutely no idea what you're even talking about when trying to _steer the discussion_ _away_ _from fanfiction._



You convince yourself of a great many things which aren't true Hasan.

Par for the course.



> 1. Obito didn't immediately use Kamui after grabbing Minato's arm, which is why Minato escaped.
> 2. The manga clearly states that _whoever strikes a split-second earlier will win the battle_.
> 3. Minato vs. Obito is perfectly consistent.



Ok, no head start then.

Good stuff.



> These 3 points are the *cornerstone *of my argument. It's _*why*_ I argue neither simultaneous use



Nothing in that list precludes a simultaneous use.

Isn't that interesting? None of your "cornerstones" prevent simultaneous use. It's only with your wild fanfiction that such an argument comes to the surface.


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## trocollo (Jan 19, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> I don't remember if you said it (when we talked about the comparison with SM Jiraya dimension and Animal Path), I think you said it, you were right then.
> 
> *Kamui is a sealed dimension.*
> 
> ...


Ok, then I have to agree on this, only things are:
- FTG isn't equal in everything the summoning
- Minato is a specialist in seals and we don't know how powerful is the "seal" of kamui
But I'll certanly go from "we can't say anything" to "probably Minato will get trapped there"
So now I think it's fair to consider Obito's kamui-land like a win condition for him

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hasan (Jan 19, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> My argument is that peace sign is not the seal of confrontation, which I already proved.
> 
> It's your random speculation that he can port with a peace sign.
> 
> ...


What on earth are you going on about?



ShinAkuma said:


> That would actually qualify as _simultaneous_ not FTG headstart.
> 
> 
> Hasan said:
> ...



You rebutted the claim by saying two things: (1) The seal is _incomplete_, and (2) The seal does _not_ require the accompanient of SFX.

I posted those 3 panels to show you: (1) It did, and (2) You have absolutely what SFX even are to begin with. And in response to that, you're dishing out this "Seal of Confrontation is not the peace sign". 



> I will tell you what it has to do with - Your points on SFX is pure fanfiction. There is no hard fast rule, so you can't lean an argument on it.


My _point_ about SFX is that they denote sounds and motion. They exist as a *rule *to denote precisely that. If a character is sweating and the writer wants to indicate that, he will draw the sweat drops and place a SFX beside it. Suddenly, those static images aren't static anymore. If you knew how the manga is produced, you wouldn't be arguing this ridiculous notion. Your Hiraishin SFX post-use isn't contrary to my point.



> Nothing in that list precludes a simultaneous use.


A simultaneous use_ *necessarily *_means that Minato is capable of reacting to a _Kamui warp, _while the manga makes it clear that it wasn't the warp, but that Obito didn't immediately use Kamui after making contact. It further means that it doesn't matter *when *Obito uses Kamui (given how it works), contradicting said point, as well as the 'whoever strikes first' one. A simultaneous use highlights Minato's ability to time his attack against a _*technique*_, taking the user of that technique out of the equation; the manga makes it clear that the fault lied with user, not the technique.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 19, 2020)

Hasan said:


> What on earth are you going on about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In order to make any argument about SFX or seal you need to prove Minato was forming a seal. A peace sign is not a seal, therefore any arguments predicated on seals are invalid.



> My _point_ about SFX is that they denote sounds and motion.



The seal of confrontation doesn't come with sound and motion, which is the point.

Showing that other seals may doesn't mean anything about this scene.



> A simultaneous use_ *necessarily *_means that Minato is capable of reacting to a _Kamui warp, _



Minato reacted to Obito's hesitation not his warp.



> while the manga makes it clear that it wasn't the warp, but that Obito didn't immediately use Kamui after making contact.



Yes it does, which doesn't  prevent a simultaneous activation.



> It further means that it doesn't matter *when *Obito uses Kamui (given how it works), contradicting said point, as well as the 'whoever strikes first' one.



This just means Obito can warp faster if he chooses to.



> A simultaneous use highlights Minato's ability to time his attack against a _*technique*_, taking the user of that technique out of the equation; the manga makes it clear that the fault lied with user, not the technique.



Yes the strike first narrative was supported when Minato warped before he was grabbed.

None of this contradicts the idea they went simultaneous.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 19, 2020)

It's amazing how some people ignore context, Minato didn't say only a fragment of second would determine the winner because ado Obito was close to him in reactions, he said that because his plan was to wait until Obito is a few inches to tag him, _the only extremely brief moment in which he is tangible_, to teleport and counter.

Now, even as an adult Obito didn't show dramatically better reactions and Madara already teached him all what he needs to execute the Bijuu hunting plan, Uchiha clan forbidden Jutsu, six path techniques, Inton, Youton, etc, prior to the Kyuubi's attack incident :

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




So, if a difference is there between ado and adult versions, it's just a minor one, nothing massive as some may suggest.


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## Hasan (Jan 19, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> In order to make any argument about SFX or seal you need to prove Minato was forming a seal. A peace sign is not a seal, therefore any arguments predicated on seals are invalid.


_lolwut?
_
*You* argued the idea of simultaneity, supporting it by positing that handseal depicted in the panel is incomplete and that particular handseal doesn't require SFX. You refused to address_ both_ those points:

1:


ShinAkuma said:


> Sure.
> 
> How about before it starts?
> 
> ...



2:


ShinAkuma said:


> How about no?



... and now you're trying to argue that's not even the handseal of confrontation, it's a _peace_ sign (which is also a seal, for you information).  

3. As I noted in earlier post, I already did:



Hasan said:


> I already did. _Try _reading the earlier posts. You ignored it while you're busy bickering over pointless details (e.g. the midwarp escape). It took you several posts to _begin addressing_ something that should have been your 2nd response. At this point, I don't even care.





> The seal of confrontation doesn't come with sound and motion, which is the point.
> 
> Showing that other seals may doesn't mean anything about this scene.


Iruka _is_ performing the seal of confrontation. The wikia folks (from whom you borrowed the term) just translated it differently. 



対立の印 = The Seal of Confrontation/Spar Sign



> Minato reacted to Obito's hesitation not his warp.





> Yes it does, which doesn't  prevent a simultaneous activation.





> Yes the strike first narrative was supported when Minato warped before he was grabbed.
> 
> None of this contradicts the idea they went simultaneous.


... and I am telling that's that's what _hesitation_ means in context of the manga. It's no different from Kakashi telling Shikaku that he was able to warp the Hachibi only using the Kyuubi's chakra, and the readers infer: "Yeah, that means Kakashi was able to create a larger barrier space".



> This just means Obito can warp faster if he chooses to.


_"He flew again... He's fast... The next time, I will warp him the instant I will lay my hand upon him". ~ Obito._


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 19, 2020)

Hasan said:


> _lolwut?
> _
> *You* argued the idea of simultaneity, supporting it by positing that handseal depicted in the panel is incomplete and that particular handseal doesn't require SFX. You refused to address_ both_ those points:



Whoa

YOU said it was a handseal. You were asked how you knew that and I gave you two options.

It's not a handseal or it's incomplete. Both options do not line up with your interpretation.

So if you maintain it's a handseal I expect that you have evidence of such.

Stop avoiding the implications of your failed fanfiction.



> it's a _peace_ sign (which is also a seal, for you information).



Not relevant to FTG use.

So if you actually believe it's a different seal that means Minato attempted a different technique before FTG?

Doesn't that support the mid warp argument?



> ... and I am telling that's that's what _hesitation_ means in context of the manga.



The hesitation in question is Obito speaking to Minato, as we are shown.


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## Hasan (Jan 19, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Whoa
> 
> YOU said it was a handseal. You were asked how you knew that and I gave you two options.
> 
> ...





ShinAkuma said:


> That would actually qualify as _simultaneous_ not FTG headstart.
> 
> 
> Hasan said:
> ...



1. Arguing it's a simultaneous use ~ incomplete handseal ~ doesn't require SFX assumes that it _is_ the handseal for Hiraishin. Otherwise, you would have said the first time around: _How did you know it was the handseal for Hiraishin?_
2. Learn to read, _genius_. I already explained it in my previous posts while you were busy dismantling ideas, I didn't even argue... Basically doing things, you're doing in the two quotes below:



> Not relevant to FTG use.
> 
> So if you actually believe it's a different seal that means Minato attempted a different technique before FTG?
> 
> Doesn't that support the mid warp argument?


Try reading the whole part, instead of cutting and pasting few words and giving it your own spin. 



> The hesitation in question is Obito speaking to Minato, as we are shown.


I agree. Now, re-read my  previous post, and realize what you just said has nothing to do with it.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 19, 2020)

Hasan said:


> 1. Arguing it's a simultaneous use ~ incomplete handseal ~ doesn't require SFX assumes that it _is_ the handseal for Hiraishin. Otherwise, you would have said the first time around: _How did you know it was the handseal for Hiraishin?_



These are simply the abundance of holes in your theory. The point was and always has been nothing you say is supported by the manga.



> 2. Learn to read, _genius_. I already explained it in my previous posts while you were busy dismantling ideas, I didn't even argue.



Yes I know, but telling me you really believe very hard isn't proof.

As @Hussain already pointed out, this is just Minato's hand.



> Try reading the whole part, instead of cutting and pasting few words and giving it your own spin.



I got a better idea - Stop running from your awful points and accept what the manga is showing us.



> I agree.



Ok good.

Simultaneous use.

Glad we finally got somewhere.


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## Artistwannabe (Jan 19, 2020)




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## ShinAkuma (Jan 19, 2020)

Well isn't that interesting? (saving that)

It's not the FTG seal confirmed. Unless of course Minato makes the seal with different fingers this one time?


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## t0xeus (Jan 19, 2020)

Different people = different fingers

My pinky finger is the longest finger for an example and I have it in the center of my set of fingers


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## Hasan (Jan 19, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> These are simply the abundance of holes in your theory. The point was and always has been nothing you say is supported by the manga.





Hasan said:


> Now, re-read my previous post, and realize what you just said has nothing to do with it.





> Yes I know, but telling me you really believe very hard isn't proof.


I don't care if you or indeed anyone else doesn't find my arguments compelling. I am just telling you that one _running away_ _is you._



> Ok good.
> 
> Simultaneous use.
> 
> Glad we finally got somewhere.


The part you _cut off~
_


Hasan said:


> Now, re-read my previous post, and realize what you just said has nothing to do with it.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 19, 2020)

Hasan said:


> I don't care if you or indeed anyone else doesn't find my arguments compelling. I am just telling you that one _running away_ _is you._




Sure man. I held your hand for pages but I'm running away.

You do you.

Anyway none of this matters as your "seal" is not the seal of confrontation.

Go back to the drawing board and rework your fanfic.


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## Hasan (Jan 19, 2020)

My argument covers this, actually. It's no more of an issue than the _separated_ _fingers_. The handseal is highlighted even in the next panel.

*EDIT:*


t0xeus said:


> Different people = different fingers
> 
> My pinky finger is the longest finger for an example and I have it in the center of my set of fingers


You could more easily argue that the 'ring' finger is being pulled due to the warp, which explains both the separation and the length (that you can chalk to the perspective angle, so the ring finger is really the middle one). That is, Minato did form a complete seal, and the broken seal is the result of the warp. Separated fingers/Not-the-same fingers is the least of their concerns. If they are so keen on pursuing this line of thought, why not begin by addressing that those fingers aren't distorted, when they should be? [] This approach is problematic because it results in endless bickering and selective reading.

... This is why I never made such an argument. I made an argument of design—a simple observation that the panel in question is peculiarly drawn: the two fingers visually cutting through the warp. An intentionally bad Photoshop, as I said in one of earlier posts. It's sufficient enough even for an average reader to deduce that it's the handseal for Hiraishin, especially when read in tandem with Obito's comment. The purpose is visual clarity, because it's visual storytelling, so Kishimoto sacrificed a little accuracy to achieve that end. From such a perspective, details like incomplete seal ~ not-the-same fingers are meaningless, because it's a simple perspective that tries to address that visual detail in context of the scene, in connection with possibly other relevant details. As far as I am concerned, the dispute only pertains to what meaning one chooses to give it. I think Hiraishin handseal is a no-brainer, because, well, he uses Hiraishin and those are his fingers.


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