# Edo Madara vs. V1 Juubi



## PDQ (Feb 10, 2013)

Madara vs Juubi's first form

Location:  Juubi's arrival
Mindset:  IC
Knowledge:  None
Condition:  Madara can only regenerate from sealing level damage 10 times(anything that isn't sufficient damage to seal him he can regenerate from indefinitely)
Juubi can't evolve into the next form.  If killing it isn't possible, knocking it out or sealing it(Chibaku Tensei?) so it can't escape for at least a week is enough to win.

Advantages Comparison:
-Madara has Preta Path powers, Perfect Susanoo(said to be on Bijuu level), Mokuton Dragon(can supress Bijuu powers, Meteors, and Edo Tensei regeneration/infinite chakra.  Maybe CT and CST.

-Juubi has the power to flick away Bijuudama and a beam version of Bijuudama that can blow away a volley of a dozen Bijuudama

While fully powered Juubi is no doubt stronger than Madara(otherwise he wouldn't need to revive it), would the first version be enough to stop him?

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## Ersa (Feb 11, 2013)

V1 Juubi lacks feats, if can he replicate the country-busting Bijuudama that the second form did then he takes this with ease.

With just the feats he's displayed I think PS is capable of surviving the Bijuudama beam. Meteors could distract it while he ensnares it with Wood Dragon, honestly I'm not sure. Going to wait for more PS feats but still leaning towards Juubi.

Simply because Juubi and RS are basically the top of the top in this manga.


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## PDQ (Feb 11, 2013)

Rasant said:


> V1 Juubi lacks feats, if can he replicate the country-busting Bijuudama that the second form did then he takes this with ease.


If he could, he most likely wouldn't need a second form.


> Simply because Juubi and RS are basically the top of the top in this manga.


But this form of Juubi is incomplete.  It hasn't evolved to it's final form.  It doesn't even have the full Kurama or Gyuuki, which made Obito hesitant to even awaken it like that.  So that suggests it's a far cry from the top tier strength of RS or final Juubi.  On the other hand, Madara has the Rinnegan, Mokuton, and EMS, 3 legendary abilities.  Mokuton is already known for suppressing Bijuu, Hashirama having had at least 5 Bijuu under his control in the past.  He has both sides of the powers that were capable of redrawing the maps.  The Rinnegan is even beyond that.


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## Grimm6Jack (Feb 11, 2013)

Most likely Madara. The Juubi has a ton of power, way, way more than Madara but he lacks hax abilities and seems to be a mindless beast.

However... 2nd Form Juubi would roflstomp.

It gives me the creeps just thinking about how strong the final form of the Juubi will be.

And it gives even more the creeps thinking how strong the Juubi with Kurama and Gyuuki would be at full power, basically, the one that RS solo'd.


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## Kai (Feb 11, 2013)

The initial stage of the Juubi somehow survived BM Naruto and BM Bee's bijuudamas, and while Perfect Susanoo's physical power was comparable to that of a bijuu, the Juubi is a _culmination_ of the bijuus.

The Juubi is still... the Juubi, it was more powerful than any character on the battlefield when it emerged, and it's only going to get more powerful than imagined as it approaches the level it was when it battled Rikudo Sennin.

Madara used Kyuubi as the ultimate force against Konoha. I don't believe Kurama would have been necessary or even a replacement had it been a lesser power than Perfect Susano'o to begin with.


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## ueharakk (Feb 11, 2013)

V1 Juubi came out unscathed from a combined bijuudama which is Tiers more powerful than a PS sword slash.

Wood dragon gets fodderized by the juubi's raw power and PS gets annihilated by 2 or more lasers.  Mokuton clones are easily dispatched by a laser sweep if they are in susanoo, and they can't really do anything if they aren't.

Then there's the part about the juubi's 'chakra' being made of natural energy that turns preta users into stone.

So Madara gets stomped.  He and no one else in the manga has firepower above the attack that V1 juubi tanked.


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## PDQ (Feb 11, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> V1 Juubi came out unscathed from a combined bijuudama which is Tiers more powerful than a PS sword slash.


But it was partially absorbed by the the shield Obito put up that even Gyuuki couldn't penetrate.
Itachi showed his MS pattern in the manga, during Sasuke's flashback in part 1


> Wood dragon gets fodderized by the juubi's raw power and PS gets annihilated by 2 or more lasers.


Wood dragon is not for beating Juubi with raw power but draining/suppressing its chakra when the others attack.  We've seen that Mokuton has power over even V2 Juubi.


> Mokuton clones are easily dispatched by a laser sweep if they are in susanoo, and they can't really do anything if they aren't.


I'm curious if Mokuton clones can use PS...


> Then there's the part about the juubi's 'chakra' being made of natural energy that turns preta users into stone.


It's not for Juubi itself, but rather its Bijuudama.  We've already seen that FRS from Sage Mode doesn't turn Preta Path to stone.  Combining Perfect Susanoo and Preta Path, it should be able to absorb Bijuudama.


The problem is that Madara is more intelligent than Juubi.  Remember what Deidara said, a Bijuu is weaker without a Jinchuuriki to control the power
V2 Juubi.
While Madara lacks the raw power of the Juubi, he has a mind trained in skills like dodging, taijutsu, ninjutsu, strategy, etc.
1 Slash might not do the trick, but a dozen?  Manuevering around him and slashing its arms and legs so it can't move?
He can even afford to sacrifice limbs so long as it's not so much damage that he gets sealed.

He could maneuver to stay close and use the sword slash to cause the Bijuudama to implode inside Juubi like Killer B did.


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## iJutsu (Feb 11, 2013)

GM is the strongest summon, + 7 bijuus makes it way above PS. Juubi has no mind, it has no reason to watch and wait for Madara to summon PS. It'll just blast him to nothing, and be on it's way. He has no way of killing it. The Chibaku Tensei that sealed the Juubi's body required the Juubi's own chakra to do, so that's not gonna work.


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## Rocky (Feb 11, 2013)

Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez said:


> It gives me the creeps just thinking about how strong the final form of the Juubi will be.


Probably somewhere around Beyonc?'s.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 11, 2013)

PS has the power of a Bijuu, JUUbi is above all Bijuus. Kurama is clearly stronger than PS seeing that Madara needed him to fight Hashirama which would make no sense if PS was stronger and in turn first form Juubi was on a different tier than Kurama.

Juubi rapes.


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## ueharakk (Feb 11, 2013)

PDQ said:


> But it was partially absorbed by the the shield Obito put up that even Gyuuki couldn't penetrate.
> _Base_


burden of proof is on you to show how durable the shield was.  The bijuudama destroyed it without even slowing down before it even blew up.



PDQ said:


> Wood dragon is not for beating Juubi with raw power but draining/suppressing its chakra when the others attack.  We've seen that Mokuton has power over even V2 Juubi.


That's mokuton for controlling the juubi by linking up with it.  If all madara has to do is link up with the juubi, then sure, I think he can win.

BM Naruto was able to tussle with the mokuton dragon, and the juubi's raw power craps all over BM NAruto's.



PDQ said:


> I'm curious if Mokuton clones can use PS...


No limits fallacy. 

Why not give him the ability to make 1,000 mokuton clones with PS? 



PDQ said:


> It's not for Juubi itself, but rather its Bijuudama.  We've already seen that FRS from Sage Mode doesn't turn Preta Path to stone.  Combining Perfect Susanoo and Preta Path, it should be able to absorb Bijuudama.


Madara cannot use preta path in conjunction with susanoo, it takes him time to switch which is why his clones were taken out by jinton.

And the juubi laser overpowers 9 TBBs without even losing any momentum, chakra wise, I don't even see how you can begin to compare the amount in the laser to the amount from just 1 FRS.





PDQ said:


> The problem is that Madara is more intelligent than Juubi.  Remember what Deidara said, a Bijuu is weaker without a Jinchuuriki to control the power
> V2 Juubi.
> While Madara lacks the raw power of the Juubi, he has a mind trained in skills like dodging, taijutsu, ninjutsu, strategy, etc.
> 1 Slash might not do the trick, but a dozen?  Manuevering around him and slashing its arms and legs so it can't move?
> He can even afford to sacrifice limbs so long as it's not so much damage that he gets sealed.


The juubi tanked an attack tiers beyond a PS slash and came out unharmed.  The slash is going to be negligible damage to it.

And unlike PS the juubi actually has speed feats, so if anyone is going to be maneuvering around, it's going to be the juubi.  And running around the juubi isn't going to be a good idea considering just one of its tails can generate PS-level shockwaves.

As long as the juubi performs like a normal bijuu would as in respond to attacks, try to initiate its own attacks, defend against oncoming attacks it's going to stomp him.  If for some reason it just sits there and does nothing while madara hacks away at it, then sure it will eventually lose.




PDQ said:


> He could maneuver to stay close and use the sword slash to cause the Bijuudama to implode inside Juubi like Killer B did.


Except bee needs a bijuudama in order to push the bijuudama.  Madara doesn't have that and the only reason bee's plan worked was because the Juubi and Obito were blind.

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## Bonly (Feb 11, 2013)

Its either a stalemate and they fight forever or Madara wins. Due to being an edo Madara will keep coming back which leads to the both of them constantly fighting. If Madara could get on top of it and somewhat control it on his for a win then he could do that although im sure he couldn't control it for long. Meh i'd favor the former to happen 

*Edit*: Ignore the above as I have been shown about the 10 times regen thing only. In that case I'd favor the Juubi to win more times then not. It tanked the combo attack of both Naruto+B's combine Bijuudama without a scratch. Thats more then anything Madara can dish out that would be effective here. The Juubi was able to blitz Naruto and B so it should be able to take down PS with its speed+Bijuu laser. Killing Madara 10 times shouldn't take too long.


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## PDQ (Feb 12, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> PS has the power of a Bijuu, JUUbi is above all Bijuus.


This isn't just Madara's power(PS).  It's Madara, Hashirama, and Rikudo Sennin's power combined.  Madara doesn't just have PS here, he has the Rinnegan, the power of the guy who sealed the full powered Juubi inside himself.  Rikudo Sennin was able to seal the Juubi before he had Juubi's power(and some people here believe he got the Rinnegan through Juubi and therefore he sealed Juubi before he had the Rinnegan even).

And again, Juubi is essentially a mindless beast.  It's why the Shinobi alliance was desperate to attack Madara and Obito, to get rid of the mind.  The mind is half its power.
"EEK!"

It's why humans like Akatsuki have been able to hunt Bijuu 2 on 1.  Bijuu are far more above humans than Juubi is above Bijuu, yet why can humans fight them?  They lack a human mind to control their power.


ueharakk said:


> The bijuudama destroyed it without even slowing down before it even blew up.


"Without even slowing down"?  What gives you this idea?


> The juubi tanked an attack tiers beyond a PS slash and came out unharmed.  The slash is going to be negligible damage to it.


If you're going to make a claim about the strength of the attack, the burden of proof is actually on you to show the Juubi actually took the brunt of it.  Your claim relies on the assumption that the shield had negligible protective effects, which you've yet to prove.  Without that, you can't use it as a durability feat.


> Why not give him the ability to make 1,000 mokuton clones with PS?


Numbers is different from abilities.  He said only one person could distinguish his clones from his real body.  If his real body was the only one capable of PS, then it'd be easily distinguishable.


> Madara cannot use preta path in conjunction with susanoo, it takes him time to switch which is why his clones were taken out by jinton.


I meant for his clones to use PS to absorb some of the blast, and Preta path powers from the others to absorb the remainder.


> And the juubi laser overpowers 9 TBBs without even losing any momentum, chakra wise, I don't even see how you can begin to compare the amount in the laser to the amount from just 1 FRS.


Madara is worlds away from a corpse Preta Path.


> And unlike PS the juubi actually has speed feats, so if anyone is going to be maneuvering around, it's going to be the juubi.


It only ran around when it was being controlled by Madara/Obito.  A medium to control the power can affect the speed.  Naruto in BM can blitz around like a yellow flash, but regular Kurama, not so much.


> And running around the juubi isn't going to be a good idea considering just one of its tails can generate PS-level shockwaves.


Those "PS level shockwaves" were repelled by 15 regular Fuuton users


> Except bee needs a bijuudama in order to push the bijuudama.


I don't mean it necessarily has to be pushed inside completely.  Even just disrupted so it explodes in its mouth when it's forming is enough.  We've seen a small boulder disrupt KN6's Bijuudama.
15 regular Fuuton users
A city sized meteor should be able to disrupt it.  Or a sword slash.


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## blk (Feb 12, 2013)

Kai said:


> *Madara used Kyuubi as the ultimate force against Konoha. I don't believe Kurama would have been necessary or even a replacement had it been a lesser power than Perfect Susano'o to begin with.*





Orochibuto said:


> PS has the power of a Bijuu, JUUbi is above all Bijuus. *Kurama is clearly stronger than PS seeing that Madara needed him to fight Hashirama which would make no sense if PS was stronger* and in turn first form Juubi was on a different tier than Kurama.
> 
> Juubi rapes.



These are non-sequitur.
Madara could have wanted the Kyuubi just for increase his chances of winning, for all we know, not because it was necessarily stronger than Perfect Susano'o.




ueharakk said:


> Madara cannot use preta path in conjunction with susanoo, *it takes him time to switch which is why his clones were taken out by jinton.*



Not true, since he used Preta Path while Susano'o was still deactivating.
Infact, the clones weren't able to absorb it because they couldn't react to the attack, a reason that explains why even the same Madara (who hadn't Susano'o active) couldn't absorb it in time.


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## ueharakk (Feb 12, 2013)

PDQ said:


> "Without even slowing down"?  What gives you this idea?


um, because the attack wasn't show or stated to slow down when it hit the shield.  



PDQ said:


> If you're going to make a claim about the strength of the attack, the burden of proof is actually on you to show the Juubi actually took the brunt of it.  Your claim relies on the assumption that the shield had negligible protective effects, which you've yet to prove.  Without that, you can't use it as a durability feat.


This is not true since we know the strength of a bijuudama since we have seen many of them throughout the manga and the offensive power they inflict on their target.  

So I have fullfilled my burden which is: show the strength of the attack.

Your burden is to show the strength of the shield. So far, it's best blocking feat is withstanding bee's punch.  How do you go from blocking bee's punch to withstanding a significant amount of the combined bijuudama?  




PDQ said:


> Numbers is different from abilities.  He said only one person could distinguish his clones from his real body.  If his real body was the only one capable of PS, then it'd be easily distinguishable.


brosky.... the statement was about him being able to distinguish between Hashirama's clones, since Hashirama doesn't use susanoo and thus only madara would be able to distinguish between the clones.  

Also, if he opts to NOT use PS with his real body, then the statement would still hold true that his clones would not be distinguishable from his real body and thus it does not mean that his clones can use PS. 

It's a no limits fallacy.

And numbers isn't different from abilities, using the same no-limits logic, madara has unlimited chakra in edo tensei and thus he can make 1,000 mokuton clones which could use PS.



PDQ said:


> I meant for his clones to use PS to absorb some of the blast, and Preta path powers from the others to absorb the remainder.



Madara is worlds away from a corpse Preta Path.



PDQ said:


> It only ran around when it was being controlled by Madara/Obito.  A medium to control the power can affect the speed.  Naruto in BM can blitz around like a yellow flash, but regular Kurama, not so much.


- bro, the only time the juubi wasn't controlled by Madara/Obito was for 2 pages.

- BM Naruto has not shown his yellow flash shunshin while in his full BM transformed state.

- BM Naruto =/= Kurama since its a Kurama avatar.  A better comparison would be fully transformed jinks and none of them have been stated or implied to be any faster than their living counterparts.



PDQ said:


> Those "PS level shockwaves" were repelled by 15 regular Fuuton users


Not all the tail swipes have equal power, SM Naruto's clone was hit with a tailswipe and it not only survived for a bit, but no shockwave was generated.

The tailswipe that got repelled was visually far far weaker than the first one, and they only repelled the part of the shockwave that would have hit the alliance.



PDQ said:


> I don't mean it necessarily has to be pushed inside completely.  Even just disrupted so it explodes in its mouth when it's forming is enough.  We've seen a small boulder disrupt KN6's Bijuudama.
> no shockwave was generated
> A city sized meteor should be able to disrupt it.  Or a sword slash.


the meteor took pages to fall to the ground, is only low-mid mountain sized and the ball is created outside of the juubi's mouth.  

Tailed beast bombs don't explode while they are forming, they explode once formed and released/fired from the user.  The whole reason bee was able to push it into the juubi's mouth is because obito and the juubi couldn't see him do so, and still opted to fire.  Also, considering how quickly the juubi can form and fire it (the TBBs barely even move in the time it takes to fire), Madara isn't swinging his sword before the dama goes off.





blk said:


> Not true, since he used Preta Path while Susano'o was still deactivating.


yeah, a much lower leveled susanoo which didn't have legs, and he had much more time to switch than the clones that got hit with the jinton.

Fact is that he has to stop holding susanoo in order to switch and there is a lag period in between that.



blk said:


> Infact, the clones weren't able to absorb it because they couldn't react to the attack, a reason that explains why even the same Madara (who hadn't Susano'o active) couldn't absorb it in time.


Madara fully reacted to the technique, he just couldn't put up preta path in time. The clones were still alive for at least a panel after the jinton was used which is why Madara uses present tense when talking about the clone's inability to absorb it.


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## Ersa (Feb 12, 2013)

PDQ said:


> If he could, he most likely wouldn't need a second form.


True enough but if he can replicate even half of that power I can't imagine him having much trouble here. The Bijuudama he performed rose above the clouds and dwarfed all other Bijuudama craters. It's crazy.


> But this form of Juubi is incomplete.  It hasn't evolved to it's final form.  It doesn't even have the full Kurama or Gyuuki, which made Obito hesitant to even awaken it like that.  So that suggests it's a far cry from the top tier strength of RS or final Juubi.  On the other hand, Madara has the Rinnegan, Mokuton, and EMS, 3 legendary abilities.  Mokuton is already known for suppressing Bijuu, Hashirama having had at least 5 Bijuu under his control in the past.  He has both sides of the powers that were capable of redrawing the maps.  The Rinnegan is even beyond that.


That's true.

But Madara is also an ant compared to RS and full Juubi.

If Juubi now without Kyuubi and Hachibi can use that level of attack, it's not a stretch to say Full Juubi was capable of casually destroying continents and RS is stronger then that.

All good but V1 Juubi is actually pretty damn fast, it blitzed Naruto and B in their Bijuu forms (granted he came out of the dust) but this is Naruto, the legitimately fastest character in the manga. Yes, Mokuton supresses Bijuu. Juubi =/= 5 Bijuu, it's much much stronger even in it's weakened state.

I still don't see how Madara puts the Juubi down, if you didn't restrict his Edo Tensei regeneration (10 times) then he could stalemate it I suppose.


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## blk (Feb 12, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> This is not true since we know the strength of a bijuudama since we have seen many of them throughout the manga and the offensive power they inflict on their target.
> 
> So I have fullfilled my burden which is: show the strength of the attack.
> 
> Your burden is to show the strength of the shield. So far, it's best blocking feat is withstanding bee's punch.  How do you go from blocking bee's punch to withstanding a significant amount of the combined bijuudama?



I don't think that he is saying that the barrier stopped a significant amount of damage, but rather he is questioning the soundness of your argument.

You can't establish the maximum durability of the barrier, therefore you can't say if the force that was absorbed by it was significant or not.
Consequently, you can't use the combined BijuuDama feat for make a solid argument for the Juubi's durability, because it would require to accept the unverified assumption that the barrier didn't absorbed a significant amount of damage.



> yeah, a much lower leveled susanoo which didn't have legs, and he had much more time to switch than the clones that got hit with the jinton.
> 
> Fact is that he has to stop holding susanoo in order to switch and there is a lag period in between that.



Madara switched to the Rinnegan only at the very last moment [1].

Of course he has to stop to hold Susano'o, but this doesn't mean that there is a significant lag time; when Madara activates Preta Path, Susano'o starts its deactivation process.



> Madara full reacted to the technique, he just couldn't put up preta path in time. The clones were still alive for at least a panel after the jinton was used which is why Madara uses present tense when talking about the clone's inability to absorb it.



What you say, regardless of the fact that you think that Madara was able to react, supports my point: if the original Madara (who was far away from the clones) couldn't activate Preta Path in time, it's only natural that even the clones couldn't.
Infact, Madara doesn't say that the clones couldn't activate Preta Path because of Susano'o [2].


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## iJutsu (Feb 12, 2013)

PDQ said:


> This isn't just Madara's power(PS).  It's Madara, Hashirama, and Rikudo Sennin's power combined.  Madara doesn't just have PS here, he has the Rinnegan, the power of the guy who sealed the full powered Juubi inside himself.  Rikudo Sennin was able to seal the Juubi before he had Juubi's power(and some people here believe he got the Rinnegan through Juubi and therefore he sealed Juubi before he had the Rinnegan even).



Edos can't become jinchuuriki. The reason he's still fighting the alliance is that he needs consent from Obito to properly revive him. Madara's only chance is chibaku, but he doesn't have the raw chakra to do that. He'll run out like Muu/Trollkage and Juubi will just escape like nothing happened.


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## Kai (Feb 12, 2013)

blk said:


> These are non-sequitur.
> Madara could have wanted the Kyuubi just for increase his chances of winning, for all we know, not because it was necessarily stronger than Perfect Susano'o.


It wasn't the forefront of my argument but it's worth bringing up if you want to consider what is actually more likely to be the case.

Actually, it pretty much is that case if one acknowledges Perfect Susanoo's power comparable to that of a bijuu, and the Kyuubi is the most powerful of the nine bijuu.


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## blk (Feb 12, 2013)

Kai said:


> It wasn't the forefront of my argument but it's worth bringing up if you want to consider what is actually more likely to be the case.
> 
> Actually, it pretty much is that case if one acknowledges Perfect Susanoo's power comparable to that of a bijuu, and the Kyuubi is the most powerful of the nine bijuu.



I know that it wasn't your main argument, but that one was a wrong consideration.

On the other hand, i can accept that Kurama is stronger than Perfect Susano'o by feats or by the fact that you stated here (though, the feats remain a better way for establish this).


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## Alita (Feb 12, 2013)

For those people saying 2nd stage juubi stomps madara how is juubi supposed to kill him? He's an edo after all and obito was confident madara would regen from his bijuu bomb.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 12, 2013)

To be honest, *Madara loses*. That thing overwhelms two of the strongest Bijuu; Perfect Susanoo rivals the _nine_ Bijuu's destructive power; the Juubi in "V1" easily overwhelmed two Bijuu.

I don't see how the meteorites will make a difference against something which can literally take out the rocks with a beam. Same thing with Chibaku Tensei, if the Bijuu Dama, and FRS were able to destroy Chibaku Tensei, then the Juubi's Bijuu Dama will doubtlessly be able to do so.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 12, 2013)

blk said:


> I think that you are misinterpreting what i said (and probably even what PDQ intended).
> 
> The punch of the Hachibi didn't showed the maximum amount of force that the barrier can withstand.
> Without knowing its durability, we can't tell how much force, of the combined BijuuDama, was absorbed by it; it could have absorbed a significant amount of it, or it could have not.
> ...


madara says that since he had susano out, he couldnt absorb the particle style jutsu properly. its not that hard to understand. this is the official viz which is 2nd only to the original japanese text in credibility.


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## blk (Feb 12, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> madara says that since he had susano out, he couldnt absorb the particle style jutsu properly. its not that hard to understand. this is the official viz which is 2nd only to the original japanese text in credibility.



Yet, it contradicts the other showing where Madara used Preta Path while there was a Susano'o out and it wasn't disappeared still [1] (bottom center panel).

The others translations offer a better logical solution, i don't know why i should believe your claim that the one that you posted is the correct.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 12, 2013)

blk said:


> Yet, it contradicts the other showing where Madara used Preta Path while there was a Susano'o out and it wasn't disappeared still [1] (bottom center panel).
> 
> The others translations offer a better logical solution, i don't know why i should believe your claim that the one that you posted is the correct.


the tech was deactivated thus preta path could be used. susano disappearing means that it has been deactivated. thats like me saying that chibaku tensei was still active when naruto fought deva path 1 on 1 because rocks were still falling from the sphere.

im not trying to make you believe anything. disagree with the manga if you want.


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## blk (Feb 12, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the tech was deactivated thus preta path could be used. susano disappearing means that it has been deactivated. thats like me saying that chibaku tensei was still active when naruto fought deva path 1 on 1 because rocks were still falling from the sphere.
> 
> im not trying to make you believe anything. disagree with the manga if you want.



You are misinterpreting me.

I don't think that Madara can use Preta Path while using Susano'o, i'm saying that he can use Preta Path while the Susano'o disappears, therefore immediately after initiating its deactivation process (like he did in the scan that i linked).

In other words, i say that there is virtually no lag time (where he would be almost defenseless) when Madara switches Susano'o into Preta Path, or the contrary.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 12, 2013)

blk said:


> You are misinterpreting me.
> 
> I don't think that Madara can use Preta Path while using Susano'o, i'm saying that he can use Preta Path while the Susano'o disappears, therefore immediately after initiating its deactivation process (like he did in the scan that i linked).
> 
> In other words, i say that there is virtually no lag time (where he would be almost defenseless) when Madara switches Susano'o into Preta Path, or the contrary.


of course madara can use preta path when susano is disappearing.

in this scan however:

the jinton hit the susano clones and madara at the same time so madara couldnt utilize preta path properly due to susano being out when the jinton hit.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 12, 2013)

Madara gets babyshaked for all time. Just because he can't die, doesn't mean V1 Ten-Tails can't pwn him for all time given all the power it has. There is literally NOTHING Madara can even do to it, and even Perfect Susano'o's slashes will be shrugged off like the Futon: Rasenshuriken was to the Sandaime Raikage. While a Bijudama Beam will rip through it like nothing and completely leave Madara aching. 

Hell the Ten-Tails is the only thing that can probably put an Edo Tensei's regen to the limit test.


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## blk (Feb 12, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> of course madara can use preta path when susano is disappearing.
> 
> in this scan however:
> 
> the jinton hit the susano clones and madara at the same time so madara couldnt utilize preta path properly due to susano being out when the jinton hit.



True.
This leads exactly to the first point that i made: 

1) We know that Madara can activate Preta Path while the Susano'o still disappears, so with a miniscule lag time.

2) The Jinton hit Madara and clones at the same time, while the latters still had Susano'o up.

Given the above, the following is the only possible conclusion: Madara's clones couldn't initiate the deactivation process of Susano'o (that is activated by the thought), and therefore activate Preta Path, because they _couldn't react to the Jinton_.

This establish that the so much-vaunted weakness of Rinnegan Madara "if he deactivates Susano'o for use Preta Path, he will be open to physical attacks" (or the contrary)  is false, as he can switch between Preta Path and Susano'o with almost zero time where he is defenseless.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hell the Ten-Tails is the only thing that can probably put an Edo Tensei's regen to the limit test.



Obito said that Madara would have regenerated from the BijuuDama of the V2 Juubi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 12, 2013)

How many times, blk? How many times can Madara regenerate before the regeneration runs out?


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## blk (Feb 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How many times, blk? How many times can Madara regenerate before the regeneration runs out?



The stipulations of the match say that he can only regenerate 10 times, if he receive a sealing level damage.
I wasn't talking about this, however.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 12, 2013)

blk said:


> True.
> This leads exactly to the first point that i made:
> 
> 1) We know that Madara can activate Preta Path while the Susano'o still disappears, so with a miniscule lag time.


That's without having mokuton clones out and with only half a susanoo up.



blk said:


> 2) The Jinton hit Madara and clones at the same time, while the latters still had Susano'o up.


which means jinton would still have to bust their susanoo first before the clones are even hit with the attack.



blk said:


> Given the above, the following is the only possible conclusion: Madara's clones couldn't initiate the deactivation process of Susano'o (that is activated by the thought), and therefore activate Preta Path, because they _couldn't react to the Jinton_.


Exept you forgot to add 1 more point before you draw the only possible conclusion which is this:

3) Madara was able to both physically and Mentally react to jinton (due to him jumping out of the technique), yet for some reason wasn't able to put up preta path himself.
 So that means that it is not possible that Madara's clones didn't react to jinton.  

If Jinton hit madara and his clones at the same time, the clones would not be instantly destroyed since unlike madara, they still have susanoo protecting them.  

So the scan actually supports my stance that there is a lag time between jinton since Madara himself both mentally and physically reacted to jinton, yet wasn't able to put up preta path.  The only explanation to this is because there is a lag time between switching from susanoo to preta path, and his clones using that ability even affected the real madara.



blk said:


> This establish that the so much-vaunted weakness of Rinnegan Madara "if he deactivates Susano'o for use Preta Path, he will be open to physical attacks" (or the contrary)  is false, as he can switch between Preta Path and Susano'o with almost zero time where he is defenseless.


yet the scans show that the weakness of Rinnegan Madara is true when more details about the scans are brought to attention rather than just your 2 points.


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## ueharakk (Feb 12, 2013)

blk said:


> I think that you are misinterpreting what i said (and probably even what PDQ intended).
> 
> The punch of the Hachibi didn't showed the maximum amount of force that the barrier can withstand.
> Without knowing its durability, we can't tell how much force, of the combined BijuuDama, was absorbed by it; it could have absorbed a significant amount of it, or it could have not.
> ...


That's a no limits fallacy to say that both possibilities are equally plausible.  It's like saying because KCM Naruto tanked a kick from Han, him tanking a super bijuudama is equally as plausible as him not tanking it since the limits of his durability have not been tested.  Using your logic, one could even say it's equally plausible that a shinobi's article of clothing tanks most of the damage from a hit rather than the shinobi himself (if that article of clothing hasn't been tested).

Thus this method of verification would fail for any defense that has not been tested to its limits.  

The fact is that the best thing the flame wall has defended against is a hachibi punch, while the attack used on the juubi is the second most powerful attack ever seen in the manga.  In light of this information, the burden of proof is on the one asserting that the flame wall has durability tier and tiers beyond what it has been given by its manga feats.







blk said:


> Actively? How do you know that he didn't simply actived it at the last moment? Because you know, there were no reasons for activate Preta Path (and therefore the Rinnegan) before that the FRS was near enough to being absorbed.


Madara was facing Naruto and has the best reactions in the manga.  Once he is pulled from susanoo, there is no reason for him to not switch to preta path.




blk said:


> The statement doesn't say that the clones were not able to activate Preta Path in time _because_ of the Susano'o, don't try to twist it.


Then what does the statement say?  Why doesn't Madara just say "the clones?" Why does he go out of his way to say "the clones with susanoo"?



blk said:


> A further suggestion is that, if the problems were the Susano'o, the original Madara (who wasn't using Susano'o) shouldn't have had any trouble at absorbing it.
> The only thing that make sense and stays coherent with Madara's first showing of Preta Path (where he used it while Susano'o was disappearing, not after), is that they weren't able to absorb the Jinton because they weren't able to react to it.


Except we see Madara reacts to it both physically and mentally, and in the panel he makes that statement

Except that Madara's clones are far more developed than the susanoo he was using.





blk said:


> How do you know that it's the correct translation? It makes even less sense than the others to be honest.




Oh really?  So Madara saying Jinton is "particle absorption" makes more sense than Madara saying "can't absorb the jinton"?

and part of the reason i giogio'd is because if you truly were "being honest" that it makes even less sense than the others, you would have pointed out why instead of just stating that and hoping I don't respond.


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## blk (Feb 13, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> That's without having mokuton clones out and with only half a susanoo up.



Which changes what?



> which means jinton would still have to bust their susanoo first before the clones are even hit with the attack.



So?



> Exept you forgot to add 1 more point before you draw the only possible conclusion which is this:
> 
> 3) Madara was able to both physically and Mentally react to jinton (due to him jumping out of the technique), yet for some reason wasn't able to put up preta path himself.
> So that means that it is not possible that Madara's clones didn't react to jinton.



He moved after being hit, if he could react he would have moved/actived Preta Path _before_ being hit.
The clones were closer to the Gokage than Madara was, so they had even less time to react.



> If Jinton hit madara and his clones at the same time, the clones would not be instantly destroyed since unlike madara, they still have susanoo protecting them.



Doesn't change anything.
The Jinton might not have destroyed them instantly, but as far as we know the disintegration process was too fast for them to properly react and activate Preta Path for save themselves.




ueharakk said:


> That's a no limits fallacy to say that both possibilities are equally plausible.  It's like saying because KCM Naruto tanked a kick from Han, him tanking a super bijuudama is equally as plausible as him not tanking it since the limits of his durability have not been tested.  Using your logic, one could even say it's equally plausible that a shinobi's article of clothing tanks most of the damage from a hit rather than the shinobi himself (if that article of clothing hasn't been tested).
> 
> Thus this method of verification would fail for any defense that has not been tested to its limits.
> 
> The fact is that the best thing the flame wall has defended against is a hachibi punch, while the attack used on the juubi is the second most powerful attack ever seen in the manga.  In light of this information, the burden of proof is on the one asserting that the flame wall has durability tier and tiers beyond what it has been given by its manga feats.



It would be a no limit fallacy if i would extrapolate the fact that we don't know the barrier's durability to infinity, but i'm not doing this.

I don't have any burden of proof since i'm not claiming that the barrier has enough durability, i'm saying that we don't know its limits, which is _true_.

We know that some attacks damaged or could damage KCM Naruto (by his own admission), so we can guess with less or more certainty his limits.
What you say about the clothings is not really correct, because as far as we know these shouldn't have much more durability the ones of our world.
But either way, i'm sure that there are plenty of feats where the clothings of the shinobi gets damaged togheter with the same shinobi; i don't really see the problem.

The barrier is different: we don't have any information of it, therefore we can't say anything.

You can't just assume its limits for the sake of your argument.




> Madara was facing Naruto and has the best reactions in the manga.  Once he is pulled from susanoo, there is no reason for him to not switch to preta path.



Having the best reactions of the manga is a reason more for not activate Preta Path before it's necessary, without wasting any chakra.



> Then what does the statement say?  Why doesn't Madara just say "the clones?" Why does he go out of his way to say "the clones with susanoo"?



I don't know, fact is that the phrase doesn't say that the clones weren't able to absorb the Jinton because of Susano'o.




> Oh really?  So Madara saying Jinton is "particle absorption" makes more sense than Madara saying "can't absorb the jinton"?
> 
> and part of the reason i giogio'd is because if you truly were "being honest" that it makes even less sense than the others, you would have pointed out why instead of just stating that and hoping I don't respond.



How Madara calls the Jinton has absolutely nothing to do with phrase subject of the discussion.
However, i have no problem at accepting that translations, since the conclusion remain the same.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 13, 2013)

blk said:


> Which changes what?


The fact that madara is able to switch quicker when he has lower forms of susanoo out something that I have told you COUNTLESS times is part of my argument.



blk said:


> So?


so they obviously had time to react if Madara had the time to escape it, the jinton only destroyed part of him and would have to go through the susanoo first.




blk said:


> He moved after being hit, if he could react he would have moved/actived Preta Path _before_ being hit.


It's impossible for him to have moved after being hit since he would have been completely enveloped in the jinton, and thus had nothing to jump off of and his entire body would have been damaged, not just part of it.



blk said:


> The clones were closer to the Gokage than Madara was, so they had even less time to react.


barely any less time to react since the cube INSTANTLY manifests to its optimal size.




blk said:


> Doesn't change anything.
> The Jinton might not have destroyed them instantly, but as far as we know the disintegration process was too fast for them to properly react and activate Preta Path for save themselves.


False, as we see the real madara has time to both physically and mentally react to the jinton cube expansion, the fact that jinton doesn't instantly disintegrate susanoo both because of madara's statement about the clones "will not" be able to absorb the jinton a panel after it is fired, and the fact that madara himself has varying levels of jinton damage which means it is far from instantaneous destruction.

Tell me, if madara can react to jinton at this close a range, why can't his clones and himself react from much much further away?





blk said:


> It would be a no limit fallacy if i would extrapolate the fact that we don't know the barrier's durability to infinity, but i'm not doing this.


No, that would just be ANOTHER no limits fallacy.  You are doing the exact same thing, giving an defense with an unquantified level of strength no limits in its contribution to the tanking of an attack.



blk said:


> I don't have any burden of proof since i'm not claiming that the barrier has enough durability, i'm saying that we don't know its limits, which is _true_.


obviously we don't know the limits, but based on the evidence provided who has the burden of proof.



blk said:


> We know that some attacks damaged or could damage KCM Naruto (by his own admission), so we can guess with less or more certainty his limits.


when?  When did he say an attack could damage him?  The only attacks that did damage him were acidic and lava, neither are a representation of explosive damage.



blk said:


> What you say about the clothings is not really correct, because as far as we know these shouldn't have much more durability the ones of our world.


based on what?  How do you know that the clothing is as durable as the clothing in our world?  Do you even know the materials of the clothing, and the fact that clothing differs from ninja to ninja?  




blk said:


> But either way, i'm sure that there are plenty of feats where the clothings of the shinobi gets damaged togheter with the same shinobi; i don't really see the problem.


Sure the clothing gets damaged together, but we don't go and say "the clothing took a significant amount of the attacks damage" now do we?  According to you, if the clothing itself has an unquantified amount of durability, all we can say is "we don't know how much it absorbed" and thus no shinobi who wears clothes can get proper durability feats.



blk said:


> The barrier is different: we don't have any information of it, therefore we can't say anything.
> 
> You can't just assume its limits for the sake of your argument.


it's the same thing with the clothing, you don't have any information on particular articles of clothing either, and thus you draw their defensive properties from other sources such as the real world.

The fact is that just because something does not have a quantified level of power does not mean we say "we don't know, it could be maximum, it could be 1" we use outside measures to make the most educated guess we can about the defense.  But you don't like to do this because it would take away your ability to downplay/extrapolate any attack or any technique at your leisure.





blk said:


> Having the best reactions of the manga is a reason more for not activate Preta Path before it's necessary, without wasting any chakra.


 

Lance?  What the f**k did I just hear Lance?  

So edo madara, a guy with unlimited chakra is going to worry about activating preta path a moment before or after because he is worries about wasting chakra?  Look at the arguments you have to stoop to.  It's basically concessionary.




blk said:


> I don't know, fact is that the phrase doesn't say that the clones weren't able to absorb the Jinton because of Susano'o.


And there you go again, playing the "i don't know" card in order to get out of taking the most evidence and logically based stance.

The exact quote is: The clones using susnaoo won't be able to absorb the jinton in time.  

Why else would madara have stated "the clones using susanoo?"  Are there clones NOT using susanoo?  Has madara absorbed jinton at an even closer range than that before?  Cheese and rice.





blk said:


> How Madara calls the Jinton has absolutely nothing to do with phrase subject of the discussion.




It obviously DOES have something to do with the phrase subject since it doesn't make sense for him to call jinton "particle absorption" while in the other scan it does make sense for him to say "absorb the jinton."  

So once again, playing the dumb card in order to avoid making the most logical and evidence based choice.



blk said:


> However, i have no problem at accepting that translations, since the conclusion remain the same.


Except I have shown you the conclusions do not remain the same.  

Brotherin look at your arguments and look at what you have to stoop to in order to support them.  Good grief, I thought you evolved passed this stage.


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## Thunder (Feb 13, 2013)

Incomplete or not, the Jūbi is still the most powerful entity in the  manga right now. There's no way in hell Madara is defeating this thing  at all, much less before his Edo Tensei regeneration runs out.


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## blk (Feb 14, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> The fact that madara is able to switch quicker when he has lower forms of susanoo out something that I have told you COUNTLESS times is part of my argument.



Oh, of course i know that you mentioned it, the problem is that there are no evidences for such a claim.
That's why i wrote "which changes what?"; i'm not accepting an argument that has no evidences.



> so they obviously had time to react if Madara had the time to escape it, the jinton only destroyed part of him and would have to go through the susanoo first.



Perhaps they were almost destroyed at that point and couldn't activate Preta Path, or they were already so damaged that it would have changed nothing.



> *It's impossible for him to have moved after being hit* since he would have been completely enveloped in the jinton, and thus had nothing to jump off of and his entire body would have been damaged, not just part of it.



But that's exactly what he did (otherwise he wouldn't have been hit). 
And if you note, the Jinton wasn't big enough for cover the entire place where Madara was, that's why only a part of him was destroyed.



> barely any less time to react since the cube INSTANTLY manifests to its optimal size.



If it was instant, then my entire argument would have been proven, as no one can react to something instant.

But the truth is that the expansion process of Jinton is just one of the fastest things of this manga; so this event becomes an evidence for this specific point of mine.



> False, as we see the real madara has time to both physically and mentally react to the jinton cube expansion, the fact that jinton doesn't instantly disintegrate susanoo both because of madara's statement about the clones "will not" be able to absorb the jinton a panel after it is fired, and the fact that madara himself has varying levels of jinton damage which means it is far from instantaneous destruction.



I didn't said that it was an instantaneous destruction, but that it damaged them so fast that they couldn't activate Preta Path in time or that even if they would have, it wouldn't have mattered anymore because of too heavy damages.



> Tell me, if madara can react to jinton at this close a range, why can't his clones and himself react from much much further away?



1) In that evenience Onoki shot the Jinton, while in the case that we discussing about, it hit them through its expansion process.

2) Nor Madara nor the clones could have expected that Onoki would have attacked with a so big Jinton.



> No, that would just be ANOTHER no limits fallacy.  You are doing the exact same thing, giving an defense with an unquantified level of strength no limits in its contribution to the tanking of an attack.
> 
> 
> obviously we don't know the limits, but based on the evidence provided who has the burden of proof.



You are equivocating my position on the matter.

The prerequisite of the fallacy is that i would argue that the barrier _can_ absorb the most of the damage _because we don't know its limit_.

But, _i'm not claiming that the barrier can absorb a significant amount of the damage of the Bijuudama because of its unknown limit_.
Hence, i'm not doing any fallacy.

Moreover, it would be a weak inference to use the Hachibi's punch feat for establish the barrier's durability, _since it's not a sufficent evidence for draw that conclusion_.



> when?  When did he say an attack could damage him?  The only attacks that did damage him were acidic and lava, neither are a representation of explosive damage.



He said that the Raikage's punch would have damaged him if he didn't blocked it.
And of course, if the lava can damage Naruto, an attack that can vaporize a mountain would kill him because of its far greater heat.



> based on what?  How do you know that the clothing is as durable as the clothing in our world?  Do you even know the materials of the clothing, and the fact that clothing differs from ninja to ninja?



There are things that we automatically assume to be true, in order to make arguments.
For example, several real world physics laws, or, more specifically to this argument, the durability of things like rock, cement or others solid. 
The same can be said for the fabric of the clothings: we don't assume that the Naruto world has clothings made of unknow fabrics and that, therefore, has unknown amounts of durability.



> Sure the clothing gets damaged together, but we don't go and say "the clothing took a significant amount of the attacks damage" now do we?  According to you, if the clothing itself has an unquantified amount of durability, all we can say is "we don't know how much it absorbed" and thus no shinobi who wears clothes can get proper durability feats.



We do not say this for two reasons:

1) The one that i wrote above.

2) Even without considering the above, the characters that we use in the Battledome have the same clothings that they have in the manga, so their overall durability wouldn't change.



> The fact is that just because something does not have a quantified level of power does not mean we say "we don't know, it could be maximum, it could be 1" we use outside measures to make the most educated guess we can about the defense.  But you don't like to do this because it would take away your ability to downplay/extrapolate any attack or any technique at your leisure.



I'm not extrapolating/downplaying anything, so i don't know what you are talking about.

And yes, i don't like your method but not because of the things that you wrote, but because it establishes conclusions that we don't know if equate to the _truth_.

Lastly, i'm not contesting it because i don't like it, but because it is outright fallacious, as it has its bases on the weak inference.




> Lance?  What the f**k did I just hear Lance?
> 
> So edo madara, a guy with unlimited chakra is going to worry about activating preta path a moment before or after because he is worries about wasting chakra?  Look at the arguments you have to stoop to.  It's basically concessionary.



You are correct about the chakra.
Still doesn't change the fact that he didn't used Preta Path until the last moment.



> And there you go again, playing the "i don't know" card in order to get out of taking the most evidence and logically based stance.



If i don't know something, why should i assume differently? For the sake of my argument? Or because something seems more logical than something else (which is totally arguable)? Whatever you choose between these possibilities, you will still not know the truth; in similar cases, "i don't know" is the only response that i'll write.



> It obviously DOES have something to do with the phrase subject since it doesn't make sense for him to call jinton "particle absorption" while in the other scan it does make sense for him to say "absorb the jinton."



How the Jinton is called doesn't really change the sense of the phrase.
Either way, i already accepted that we can use the other translations, so this point isn't relevant anymore.


----------



## blk (Feb 14, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I have consistently given the evidences that support that claim, you just choose to ignore them.



I re-read the posts, and you didn't gave any evidence for why the switching process should be slower if there are clones with Susano'o active.



> this is irrelevant since madara himself physically and mentally reacted to the technique which means his clones would have been able to do the same.  The damage comes after the technique hits them.  And we know the clones are still alive at least 1 panel after the jinton cube forms.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



After analyzing the scans of the battlefield, i just realized that Kishimoto screwed it up, it's not consistent from showing to showing.
So, it seems that the pillar where Madara was, is gone after the Jinton, and that therefore Madara had to move before the Jinton arrived to him.

Therefore ok, i might as well concede this point.



> oonoki "shooting" jinton is just EXPANDING his jinton horizontally.



Well, i never considered that kind of Jinton to be as fast as the others, otherwise Onoki would one-shot almost everyone.

Also, if Onoki's Jinton was so fast, then the fact that Madara succesfully absorbed it means that the lag time of the switch between Susano'o and Preta Path is, infact, minuscule.



> the size of the jinton is irrelevant as they know the power of his jinton, see tsunade powering the technique up and Madara canonically resorts to preta path when jinton comes into play.  In addition, there's even a panel in between jinton being used and it fully expanding into the cube, there is litterally no excuse for the clones to not be able to react to it.



No, it was totally relevant, because if they knew that it would have been that big, then they would have activated Preta Path in the same moment when they saw Tsunade charging Onoki.



> k i concede that what you are trying to do is not a no limits fallacy.
> 
> Then the next step would be to look to other feats or things that can be comparable to the barrier, and if we don't find that then we go to hype.  We don't just say "we don't know" and leave it at that since all that would require is a certain degree of skepticism on any argument in order to render the point moot.



I don't think that there is something that we can really compare with the barrier.

Also, the "i don't know" answer is completely valid when there aren't evidences.



> Except Naruto has no qualms touching and pushing the actual bijuudama with his hands.



I talked about the explosion of it, which is the thing that actually vaporizes the mountains.



> But why? Why don't we assume that Naruto's world has clothing made of unknown fabrics?  They are ninja, obviously they are going to be wearing protective equipment.



Because there are things that _have_ to be assumed, otherwise it's impossible to even make a discussion.
Of course, this should only apply to the basic rules of the Narutoverse.



> The point is that it's a double standard to say "we don't know" and leave it at that when talking about one defense, and then say "well we don't assume that Naruto world clothing has unknown amounts of durability".



The circumstances are different, the basic rules of the verse need to be equated to our world because we have no other way for establish them.
So, again, we _always_ just assume that the general mechanics of the verse are as our world. 



> Your second point is irrelevant since it is there very same clothes that they wear in the manga that I am talking about.  If character A gets hit with a rasengan in the manga, according to your method of inference that "because the defense has not been tested we don't know how much of the attack it blocked" you can't say that the character took anywhere near the full force of the attack.  And thus there would be almost no durability feats.



It is perfectly relevant, because even if the clothings were the ones that withstood most of the damages in the durability feats, the characters that we use in the Battledome _have_ these clothings, so they would be able to tank anything that they tanked in the manga (even if they did it only because of the clothing).



> The last sentence is basically concessionary as almost NOTHING in the manga can be equated to absolute truth.  Unless something is explicitly stated in the manga, anyone can play the skeptic card that you are playing against any argument and turn it into a "we don't know" conclusion.
> 
> And that's why it's obvious that you are really biased because whenever the evidence points towards a conclusion that is unfavorable to you, you always resort to the "we don't know" or "you can't prove it, so it's baseless" or "they are not the same so they are incomparable" card.



I didn't mean absolute truth, but something that is supported by evidence.



> If this were true, then you would give arguments for why the shield DID tank a lot of the bijuudama.



Nope.
Your argument regarding the barrier had no evidences, so i rightly didn't accept it.



> You are the guy who argued that madara's PS slash was stronger than the juubi's laser.  Using the same burden of proof you place on the opposition, do you think your arguments would hold any water?  Obviously not.



I argued that the PS slashes could replicate (because of a similar level of power, overall) the Juubi's laser feat of destroying multiple coming Bijuudama, to be correct.




> That's another concession on your part.  You gave a reason why Madara would wait till the last possible instant before trying to use preta path and I knocked that reason down.  Now there is no reason for him to wait till the last moment, and thus him failing to absorb some attacks is not due to him "wanting to wait till the last second to absorb", it's because he COULDNT absorb.



What i gave was an additional suggestion to my point.

Madara couldn't absorb the FRS until the very last moment because.... well, it wouldn't even be near enough to be absorbed, if not at the very last moment.
Lastly, it's a common thing for an author to draw a character that uses his powers only at the last moment, for try to create suspence; but does this means that, every time that happens, the powers couldn't be activated before, for a significant lag or something like that? Of course not.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 14, 2013)

blk said:


> I re-read the posts, and you didn't gave any evidence for why the switching process should be slower if there are clones with Susano'o active.


reread the posts, I did not say I gave the evidence in this thread, however over the course of debating you on NF, I have made the same case MANY times.




blk said:


> After analyzing the scans of the battlefield, i just realized that Kishimoto screwed it up, it's not consistent from showing to showing.
> So, it seems that the pillar where Madara was, is gone after the Jinton, and that therefore Madara had to move before the Jinton arrived to him.
> 
> Therefore ok, i might as well concede this point.


good man




blk said:


> Well, i never considered that kind of Jinton to be as fast as the others, otherwise Onoki would one-shot almost everyone.
> 
> Also, if Onoki's Jinton was so fast, then the fact that Madara succesfully absorbed it means that the lag time of the switch between Susano'o and Preta Path is, infact, minuscule.


Yeah, the lag time while Madara has ribcage susanoo up would mean the switch is miniscule while the lag time when Madara has much higher levels up would be higher as we see via the clones and him switching in order to absorb FRS.




blk said:


> No, it was totally relevant, because if they knew that it would have been that big, then they would have activated Preta Path in the same moment when they saw Tsunade charging Onoki.


But they already know that jinton busts susanoo so regardless of the size of the jinton, they would have opted to absorb it just like madara does.  This in addition to seeing tsunade powering oonoki up and them having a panel to react to the attack makes the point irrelevant.




blk said:


> I don't think that there is something that we can really compare with the barrier.
> 
> Also, the "i don't know" answer is completely valid when there aren't evidences.


We can compare other barriers to the barrier such as the barrier used on turtle island.
Or we can use the fact that the barrier springs up from the ground and is stationary, and thus would have to be destroyed before the TBB could advance forward.

Or we can scale established durability of bijuu like bee to the juubi.

and if all else fails, we got by hype.




blk said:


> I talked about the explosion of it, which is the thing that actually vaporizes the mountains.


okay i concede this point too




blk said:


> Because there are things that _have_ to be assumed, otherwise it's impossible to even make a discussion.
> Of course, this should only apply to the basic rules of the Narutoverse.


exactly, and thus who decides on what things "have" to be assumed?  The fact is that play the same skeptic card you play just to a greater extent and this is where we end up.




blk said:


> The circumstances are different, the basic rules of the verse need to be equated to our world because we have no other way for establish them.
> So, again, we _always_ just assume that the general mechanics of the verse are as our world.


The basic rules of the verse don't need to be equated to our world, it's very possible to still establish them from within just the naruto manga.  Assuming teh general mechanics of the verse and our world is just what the majority choose to do, it does not by any means mean that it is correct.  Thus once again, play a big enough skeptic card and this point becomes nill.




blk said:


> It is perfectly relevant, because even if the clothings were the ones that withstood most of the damages in the durability feats, the characters that we use in the Battledome _have_ these clothings, so they would be able to tank anything that they tanked in the manga (even if they did it only because of the clothing).


Actually, you make a good point here.  I concede, it is relevant.




blk said:


> I didn't mean absolute truth, but something that is supported by evidence.


yet what you do is play the skeptic card to whatever extent you wish in order to disregard evidence.




blk said:


> Nope.
> Your argument regarding the barrier had no evidences, so i rightly didn't accept it.


reread the argument.

And if there is a lack of feat-wise evidence, we go to hype.




blk said:


> I argued that the PS slashes could replicate (because of a similar level of power, overall) the Juubi's laser feat of destroying multiple coming Bijuudama, to be correct.


No, I remember you specifically argued that it was stronger, and yet did you burden yourself with having to PROVE that the PS slash was stronger?





blk said:


> What i gave was an additional suggestion to my point.


No you didn't, you basically ignored the logic of my post which is that "particle absorption" makes no sense while "absorb jinton" does make sense and also makes sense of "particle absorption" and just said "however jinton is called doesn't change the senes of the phrase".  How do the different scans NOT change the sense of the phrase?  Taken as a standalone, the first scan doesn't even talk about the clones absorbing the jinton, while the second scan explicitly addresses that.



blk said:


> Madara couldn't absorb the FRS until the very last moment because.... well, it wouldn't even be near enough to be absorbed, if not at the very last moment.
> Lastly, it's a common thing for an author to draw a character that uses his powers only at the last moment, for try to create suspence; but does this means that, every time that happens, the powers couldn't be activated before, for a significant lag or something like that? Of course not.


obviously this would be true if that was a standalone feat, but it is not as we have statements and feats of him and his clones not being able to absorb jinton while having upper levels of susanoo out.


----------



## Ezekial (Feb 14, 2013)

Madara has RS's powers and more he wins by default he'd also beat the complete version. Even Rikudo lacked the Rinnegan whilst fighting the Juubi. 

At OP Madara hasn't revived the Juubi because its more powerful then he is he revived it so he can gain more power by sealing it


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 14, 2013)

Ezekial said:


> Madara has RS's powers and more he wins by default he'd also beat the complete version. Even Rikudo lacked the Rinnegan whilst fighting the Juubi.
> 
> At OP Madara hasn't revived the Juubi because its more powerful then he is he revived it so he can gain more power by sealing it


Madara has only displayed TWO Rinnegan abilities. His Perfect Susano'o and Mokuton also don't make up for fighting the Ten-Tails even in its initial form. 

He's not winning, Ezekial. Not even close.


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## Rocky (Feb 14, 2013)

Ezekial said:


> Madara has RS's powers and more he wins by default he'd also beat the complete version. Even Rikudo lacked the Rinnegan whilst fighting the Juubi.
> 
> At OP Madara hasn't revived the Juubi because its more powerful then he is he revived it so he can gain more power by sealing it



You poor confused soul.

Most of Rikudou's power comes from _Banbutsu Sōzō._, which Madara most certainly does not possess. 

His attacks are on a _planetary_ scale, and he had the Rinnegan, because he sealed the Juubi's body in Chibaku Tensei.


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## αce (Feb 14, 2013)

> Condition:  Madara can only regenerate from sealing level damage 10  times(anything that isn't sufficient damage to seal him he can  regenerate from indefinitely)
> Juubi can't evolve into the next form.  If killing it isn't possible,  knocking it out or sealing it(Chibaku Tensei?) so it can't escape for at  least a week is enough to win.
> 
> Advantages Comparison:
> -Madara has Preta Path powers, Perfect Susanoo(said to be on Bijuu  level), Mokuton Dragon(can supress Bijuu powers, Meteors, and Edo Tensei  regeneration/infinite chakra.  Maybe CT and CST.



I'm not sure why this thread is so controversial. People automatically jumped to a power argument and tried to see who would out nuke the other. Well, Madara has Hashirama chakra here as well as his Mangekyou Sharingan. This is only the first form of the Juubi which they casually took control of. Taking control of this form of Juubi shouldn't be any more difficult than what they are doing currently.


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## Rocky (Feb 14, 2013)

αce said:


> I'm not sure why this thread is so controversial. People automatically jumped to a power argument and tried to see who would out nuke the other. Well, Madara has Hashirama chakra here as well as his Mangekyou Sharingan. This is only the first form of the Juubi which they casually took control of. Taking control of this form of Juubi shouldn't be any more difficult than what they are doing currently.



I doubt the point of this thread is for Madara to take control of it. Killing it, knoking it out, or sealing it were the conditions the OP gave.

There's no garuntee Madara can control it wihtout Obito anyway.


----------



## αce (Feb 14, 2013)

> I doubt the point of this thread is for Madara to take control of it.  Killing it, knoking it out, or sealing it were the conditions the OP  gave.



Anyone of those things is possible if the Juubi isn't retaliating. Which would happen the moment it loses its consciousness.


> There's no garuntee Madara can control it wihtout Obito anyway.



I knew someone would say this but I really doubt that he couldn't. The next form of Juubi is signifcantly stronger than V1 and they need both. One person should be enough for the first form.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 15, 2013)

αce said:


> Anyone of those things is possible if the Juubi isn't retaliating. Which would happen the moment it loses its consciousness.


And what, pray tell, does Madara even have in his arsenal that can knock the Juubi out?



> I knew someone would say this but I really doubt that he couldn't. The next form of Juubi is signifcantly stronger than V1 and they need both. One person should be enough for the first form.


Except both had to be hooked up to the Juubi in the first place to control it.


----------



## U mad bro (Feb 15, 2013)

Fight is pointless magic eyeball clan can control it. But in pure power the juubi rapes. But like every bijuu without a host it is controllable if you are skilled enough. Safe to say Madara fits that category. The juubi and Obito if were to ever become one it's power would skyrocket and be harnessed like BM. Madara would probably die if he tried to kill it. He has nothing to put it down and probably waste chakra or piss it off.


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## Rocky (Feb 15, 2013)

αce said:


> Anyone of those things is possible if the Juubi isn't retaliating. Which would happen the moment it loses its consciousness.



I don't think Madara has anything strong enough to knock the Juubi out.



> I knew someone would say this but I really doubt that he couldn't. The next form of Juubi is signifcantly stronger than V1 and they need both. One person should be enough for the first form.



I'm open to the idea, but there's really no proof or substance to that statement. It's just your guess.


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## blk (Feb 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> reread the posts, I did not say I gave the evidence in this thread, however over the course of debating you on NF, I have made the same case MANY times.



At best you just asserted it, because i don't really remember any actual evidence backing up this argument, at least before this discussion.

Infact, thanks to what we established in this discussion, the circle can be completed:

1) The structure where Madara stood, was obliterated by the Jinton, therefore Madara had physically react to the Jinton, otherwise he would have been completely engulfed in it.

2) Madara reacted but didn't activated Preta Path, this fact added to some kind of translations is an evidence that Madara _couldn't_ activate Preta Path.

3) Assuming that the Jinton posses the same expansion speed for every kind of form, Madara seemed to be able to deactivate Susano'o and activate Preta Path in a smaller time-frame than the one that he had in the already said occasion.

4) All the above, points to the conclusion that the time to switch between Susano'o and Preta Path isn't always the same; therefore, given also what there is wrote in some of translations, the conclusion supported by the most evidences is that the lag time seems dependant on the level of Susano'o of Madara and/or the clones.

So, yes, that said i can accept your claim that more the Susano'o is advanced, more the switching time is bigger.

However, you should note that the point that rendered your argument the most plausible and make me accept it on the whole, was the one regarding the place where Madara was standing; without it, you wouldn't have enough evidences for say with a certain level of certainty that Madara could physically react to the Jinton, and without this premise all the other points would be moot.



> We can compare other barriers to the barrier such as the barrier used on turtle island.
> Or we can use the fact that the barrier springs up from the ground and is stationary, and thus would have to be destroyed before the TBB could advance forward.
> 
> Or we can scale established durability of bijuu like bee to the juubi.
> ...



I personally think that this barrier has too much unknows for be able to compare/scale it to something.



> exactly, *and thus who decides on what things "have" to be assumed?*  The fact is that play the same skeptic card you play just to a greater extent and this is where we end up.
> 
> 
> 
> The basic rules of the verse don't need to be equated to our world, it's very possible to still establish them from within just the naruto manga.  Assuming teh general mechanics of the verse and our world is just what the majority choose to do, it does not by any means mean that it is correct.  Thus once again, play a big enough skeptic card and this point becomes nill.



We assume the least as possible; that's the answer.
Without some assumption, we can't go _anywhere_ from an epistemological point of view.

When we argue about this fictional matches, i assure you that there are real world rules that everyone assume _without even realizing it_.
There are several things that we simply can't establish because of lack of evidences, but without them most discussions lose any sense.



> yet what you do is play the skeptic card to whatever extent you wish in order to disregard evidence.



No, what i don't accept are conclusions based on weak inference, non-sequitur, or others logical fallacies, or beliefs that are less or as much, supported as mine.



> No, I remember you specifically argued that it was stronger, and yet did you burden yourself with having to PROVE that the PS slash was stronger?



You remember wrong.

Also, as far i'm concerned, the laser that BM Naruto tanked could very well posses less overall power than a PS slash, seeing as the laser is more concentrated, but the slashes have more AoE.




> No you didn't, you basically ignored the logic of my post which is that "particle absorption" makes no sense while "absorb jinton" does make sense and also makes sense of "particle absorption" and just said "however jinton is called doesn't change the senes of the phrase".  How do the different scans NOT change the sense of the phrase?  Taken as a standalone, *the first scan doesn't even talk about the clones absorbing the jinton, while the second scan explicitly addresses that*.



And that's what would change the sense of the phrase, surely not how the Jinton is called.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 15, 2013)

blk said:


> At best you just asserted it, because i don't really remember any actual evidence backing up this argument, at least before this discussion.
> 
> Infact, thanks to what we established in this discussion, the circle can be completed:
> 
> ...


thank you



blk said:


> However, you should note that the point that rendered your argument the most plausible and make me accept it on the whole, was the one regarding the place where Madara was standing; without it, you wouldn't have enough evidences for say with a certain level of certainty that Madara could physically react to the Jinton, and without this premise all the other points would be moot.


okay




blk said:


> I personally think that this barrier has too much unknows for be able to compare/scale it to something.


well, what are the unknowns?  I just think you are playing the skeptic card again in order to avoid the conclusion that you don't like.

If bee's standard bijuudama can break through this many island sized barriers I doubt this bijuudama lost any power breaking through 1 barrier.

Then there's the fact that the barrier should not be able to travel since it comes forth from the ground.

Then the hype the juubi gets.

There will always be unknowns and unprovable assumptions because it's a manga where we have limited feats, but playing that card in order to avoid the most plausible conclusion is not debating fairly.



blk said:


> We assume the least as possible; that's the answer.
> Without some assumption, we can't go _anywhere_ from an epistemological point of view.


and who decides what is "the least possible"?  



blk said:


> When we argue about this fictional matches, i assure you that there are real world rules that everyone assume _without even realizing it_.
> There are several things that we simply can't establish because of lack of evidences, but without them most discussions lose any sense.


sure i completely are with this, but that is just something you observe that most people use when debating, however it does nothing to say if it is correct or not, and thus anyone can just get as skeptical as they want and boot out arguments.




blk said:


> No, what i don't accept are conclusions based on weak inference, non-sequitur, or others logical fallacies, or beliefs that are less or as much, supported as mine.


but you see, when you call something a "weak inference" you are defining what is "weak" and thus you could call anything "weak" no matter how weak or strong it is and throw it out.  That's another way of using the skeptic card to just boot out any argument you don't like by saying "not enough info" or "you can't prove" or "not the same so incomparable" etc.  




blk said:


> You remember wrong.
> 
> Also, as far i'm concerned, the laser that BM Naruto tanked could very well posses less overall power than a PS slash, seeing as the laser is more concentrated, but the slashes have more AoE.




the laser overpowered 9 bijuudamas without losing any power, each of which has comparable total destructive power to a PS slash.

The laser destroyed a line of mountains kicking up dust at least 2 times as high as the surrounding mountains.

Then there's the hype about a slash only being as powerful as a bijuudama.

Goodness gracious.





blk said:


> And that's what would change the sense of the phrase, surely not how the Jinton is called.


so you concede then that the one that says "particle absorption" does not make sense, and the one that says "absorb the jinton" does?


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## blk (Feb 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> well, what are the unknowns?  I just think you are playing the skeptic card again in order to avoid the conclusion that you don't like.
> 
> If bee's standard bijuudama can break through this many island sized barriers I doubt this bijuudama lost any power breaking through 1 barrier.
> 
> ...



How do you know that these island sized barriers have a similar durability to Obito's barrier?

Considering that Obito's barrier didn't broke when the combined Bijuudama hit it [1], while the others broke against a much smaller and weaker one, it becomes obvious that these two kind of barriers are not similar.

I don't see what the Juubi's hype has anything to do with this.
Just to be sure, i'm not arguing that the Juubi can't tank the combined Bijuudama because we can't completely attribute to him that particular durability feat.
I'm arguing the _feat itself_, because it is not clear.



> and who decides what is "the least possible"?
> 
> sure i completely are with this, but that is just something you observe that most people use when debating, however it does nothing to say if it is correct or not, and thus anyone can just get as skeptical as they want and boot out arguments.



The least possible, is the when if you don't assume an initial point, you can't conclude anything, epistemologically.

For example, you assume that trees have less durability than a rock, and so you judge an attack that destroys a rock, stronger than one that destroys a tree.
This same assumption needs other unconscious assumptions, like that the chimical compositions of these material are the same as our world; from this, everything regarding the atomic world and how it works is _unconsciously assumed_, to be as our world, and so on.

Without these kind of assumptions, any belief become as justified as any other; _any conclusion will be as plausible as any other_, therefore killing the purpose of debating.




> There will always be unknowns and unprovable assumptions because it's a manga where we have limited feats, but playing that card in order to avoid the most plausible conclusion is not debating fairly.
> 
> but you see, when you call something a "weak inference" you are defining what is "weak" and thus you could call anything "weak" no matter how weak or strong it is and throw it out.  That's another way of using the skeptic card to just boot out any argument you don't like by saying "not enough info" or "you can't prove" or "not the same so incomparable" etc.



Weak inference is a kind of logical fallacy that takes place when you draw a conclusion depsite the insufficence of evidences, for example (i'll take one related to the manga): some people said that since Madara actived PS behind Kurama, he powered it up with his chakra.
Now, you can clearly see that this assertion has not enough evidences for be anymore justified than one that says that Madara didn't powered PS with Kurama's chakra.

Both the conclusions are equally plausible, but since the first is a positive, it would be the one considered false.
Examples can be made for every logical fallacy, but i think that you got the point.

The "skeptic card" is valid as long as the positive isn't more plausible than the negative.



> the laser overpowered 9 bijuudamas without losing any power, each of which has comparable total destructive power to a PS slash.



How destructive are the Bijuudama has nothing to do with their durability.



> The laser destroyed a line of mountains kicking up dust at least 2 times as high as the surrounding mountains.



That one was the second laser, i'm talking about the first which was visually weaker.




> so you concede then that the one that says "particle absorption" does not make sense, and the one that says "absorb the jinton" does?



I do, but not because of how the Jinton is called.


----------



## DeK3iDE (Feb 15, 2013)

Edo Madara would most definitely need his PS up and running to stand an optimal chance at against it, that's for sure.





Ezekial said:


> Madara has RS's powers and more he wins by default he'd also beat the complete version. Even Rikudo lacked the Rinnegan whilst fighting the Juubi.


for the sake of accuracy, it was never mentioned as to whether or not Rikudou had Rinnegan when he stopped the Juubi; let alone if he got it as a result of sealing it in himself or not.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 15, 2013)

blk said:


> How do you know that these island sized barriers have a similar durability to Obito's barrier?


The same could be said for almost anything in the naruto world. You are once again just playing the same skeptic card by saying "you can't prove they are the same so incomparable" in order to boot out any argument that you don't like.

The island sized barriers are far larger than obito's barrier for one, for 2, they are actively being powered by ninja's who specialize in maintaining barriers.  



blk said:


> Considering that Obito's barrier didn't broke when the combined Bijuudama hit it [1], while the others broke against a much smaller and weaker one, it becomes obvious that these two kind of barriers are not similar.


the bijuudama didn't even hit it in that panel, that was right before it hit it.  thus there is none of the white hit-animation present where the bijuudama and the barrier touch.

And if this were true, then it means that once the barrier broke once the bijuudama traveled past the initial position.

All of this and bee's bijuudama didn't even shrink a little from going through the barriers on the scan that I posted.  

So lets look at the facts:
Bee's normal bijuudama (hundreds of times smaller than the combined bijuudama) plowed through multiple layers of island barrier without even getting smaller.

And you are positing that obito's barrier took a significant amount of the combined bijuudama?  The only way for this to be true is for obito's barrier to be magnitudes beyond magnitudes more powerful than one of the island barriers.  Barriers that were created by barrier specialists who were doing nothing but powering the barrier while obito was fighting and doing all kinds of things while his barrier was up.

Now, can I prove the barrier didn't take most of the bijuudama?  No.  But which conclusion is the more plausible one?




blk said:


> I don't see what the Juubi's hype has anything to do with this.
> Just to be sure, i'm not arguing that the Juubi can't tank the combined Bijuudama because we can't completely attribute to him that particular durability feat.
> I'm arguing the _feat itself_, because it is not clear.


Because the juubi is far stronger than BM Naruto, and we've seen that the hachibi can survive its own bijuudama, therefore the juubi should be able to tank a bijuudama from beings that are far weaker than itself.




blk said:


> The least possible, is the when if you don't assume an initial point, you can't conclude anything, epistemologically.


So one could just assume that the clothes have 300 times the durability of normal human clothes and then you can make conclusions from that. 



blk said:


> For example, you assume that trees have less durability than a rock, and so you judge an attack that destroys a rock, stronger than one that destroys a tree.
> This same assumption needs other unconscious assumptions, like that the chimical compositions of these material are the same as our world; from this, everything regarding the atomic world and how it works is _unconsciously assumed_, to be as our world, and so on.
> 
> Without these kind of assumptions, any belief become as justified as any other; *any conclusion will be as plausible as any other, therefore killing the purpose of debating.*


exactly, and that is what you essentially do with the skepticism of booting out any argument you don't like by saying "they are not the same, so incomparable" or "we don't know" etc.  It's just on a scale before that.

And the tree vs rock example perfectly proves my point since in the naruto world, trees are more durable than rocks are.  




blk said:


> Weak inference is a kind of logical fallacy that takes place when you draw a conclusion depsite the insufficence of evidences, for example (i'll take one related to the manga): some people said that since Madara actived PS behind Kurama, he powered it up with his chakra.
> Now, you can clearly see that this assertion has not enough evidences for be anymore justified than one that says that Madara didn't powered PS with Kurama's chakra.


That would be false because the reason that argument is a weak one is not because the insufficience of evidences for the notion, but the strong evidences AGAINST the notion.  The strong evidences AGAINST the notion would be that we have seen madara use an even more developed form of PS without kurama's power before and thus he doesn't need kurama's power to use PS.  

And according to your logic, if there is just a weak argument for the notion, but no argument against it, then it must follow that the conclusion you draw is:

You don't know if Kurama powered up PS, maybe it did maybe it didn't.



blk said:


> Both the conclusions are equally plausible, but since the first is a positive, it would be the one considered false.
> Examples can be made for every logical fallacy, but i think that you got the point.


lol both examples make positive arguments.  One makes the positive argument that PS did get powered up, the other one makes the positive argument that Madara powered the PS by himself.   

So there are two positive arguments being made and thus both arguments must be supported by evidence.  According to you, if both are equally plausible, then we say "we don't know".

The whole "i don't have to prove a negative" burden of proof statement means that a negative does not have to be proven in order for the positive to NOT be true, it however says nothing about the truth of the negative.  If the negative of the statement can't be proven true and neither can the positive, then the answer is "we don't know".



blk said:


> The "skeptic card" is valid as long as the positive isn't more plausible than the negative.


completely and utterly false, as you the "skeptic" are the one who is judging the criteria in order to call an argument "more plausible" and thus any skeptic can just call any argument he wants "equally as plausible" as the counterargument no matter what kind of evidences are given, and basically throw that said argument out with the "we don't know" conclusion.

Which is exactly what you always do whenever you are faced with a conclusion that you don't like.

Thus is the reason why you require the opposition to PROVE things to you before you accept them, while other arguments that cannot be proved but are just much more supported than what you vouche for, you simply call "equally as plausible" and then boot the entire argument out the window with the skeptic card.




blk said:


> How destructive are the Bijuudama has nothing to do with their durability.


oh really?  

would you like to support your assertion with an argument?

And i guess you concede the argument since you have not addressed the fact that madara says his slash has the same power as the bijuu after doing a similar destructive feat to one bijuudama.



blk said:


> That one was the second laser, i'm talking about the first which was visually weaker.


lol, what is this based on? 





blk said:


> I do, but not because of how the Jinton is called.


  then why drag this argument out.


----------



## blk (Feb 16, 2013)

ueharakk, it's better to finish here the debate.

Our foundational points are so different that are rendering the communication far too difficult.
Start a debate about this stuff would require to go in deep of matters that i don't even know if you have knowledge of, and would be far too off topic.

Therefore, as i already said, i accept your argument about the Preta Path, but remain of the opinion that the Juubi's feat against the combined Bijuudama is an unusable one.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 16, 2013)

blk said:


> ueharakk, it's better to finish here the debate.
> 
> Our foundational points are so different that are rendering the communication far too difficult.
> Start a debate about this stuff would require to go in deep of matters that i don't even know if you have knowledge of, and would be far too off topic.
> ...



well if you are going to be unbudging in your stance regarding the combined bijuudama despite all the evidences that I have brought to the table, then I expect you to be just as skeptical about any other argument both for and against your own agenda, and require a proof to establish those points.  

If you do that, then I can happily agree to disagree since it's basically falls under the realm of "opinion" without crossing any double standards.  All I am saying is that if you are going to be super skeptical against feats or instances that support one character, you should exercise the same  level of skeptical(ness?) when viewing other characters.


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## Ezekial (Feb 16, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You poor confused soul.
> 
> Most of Rikudou's power comes from _Banbutsu Sōzō._, which Madara most certainly does not possess.
> 
> His attacks are on a _planetary_ scale, and he had the Rinnegan, because he sealed the Juubi's body in Chibaku Tensei.



Creating the black rods and black Zetsu from his will are classic Banbutsu Sōzō characteristics, as is the meteor jutsu.

Even if RS did have the Rinnegan, he lacked Mokuton, immortality, unlimited chakra and unlimited durability... Madara has it all. People who argue Madara isnt capable of this feat simply dont want Madara to be on par with Rikudo when they know full well he is if not above.


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

Ezekial said:


> People who argue Madara isnt capable of this feat simply dont want Madara to be on par with Rikudo when they know full well he is if not above.



Rikudou created the moon.

Madara's most powerful technique was defeated by another man's wood.


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## Ezekial (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Rikudou created the moon.
> 
> Madara's most powerful technique was defeated by another man's wood.



Using the Juubi's power... Also "wood" is a very trivial way of describing the most haxxed power in Naruto. Could you also show me the panel saying PS is Madara's most powerful technique? When i'm fairly sure Madara has BS.


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

......._BS?_

If you mean creation of all things......no.

No.


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## KyuubiFan (Feb 17, 2013)

Sure he has. How else did he create the black rods and Black Zetsu?

Plus he even mentions that he'll teach Trollbito the usage of the Yin-Yang Relase, among other haxxxes.


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## Ezekial (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> ......._BS?_
> 
> If you mean creation of all things......no.
> 
> No.



That's your argument "no"? OK, the black rods and black Zetsu creations are identical to that of Banbutsu Sōzō... You cant deny that, even the meteor is... You have no argument that Madara cant beat the Juubi other then "No" you just dont want him to be on par with him. I doubt you even acknowledge he's above Hashirama... *awaits retarded response


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 17, 2013)

Ezekial said:


> Using the Juubi's power... Also "wood" is a very trivial way of describing the most haxxed power in Naruto. Could you also show me the panel saying PS is Madara's most powerful technique? When i'm fairly sure Madara has BS.



right here:


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## Ezekial (Feb 17, 2013)

How is that stating Madara is using his strongest technique? When Susanoo is mainly defensive, Naruto using BM is not his strongest attack is it. It's his most powerful form FRS or bijuu dama is his most powerful technique, Kabuto's SM isn't his most powerful technique it's most powerful form...


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 17, 2013)

Ezekial said:


> How is that stating Madara is using his strongest technique? When Susanoo is mainly defensive, Naruto using BM is not his strongest attack is it. It's his most powerful form FRS or bijuu dama is his most powerful technique, Kabuto's SM isn't his most powerful technique it's most powerful form...


susano is a technique thus it is his full power. you dont get any stronger than your full power. perfect susano is his strongest tech/power.


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## Ezekial (Feb 17, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> susano is a technique thus it is his full power. you dont get any stronger than your full power. perfect susano is his strongest tech/power.



SM is a technique, was that Kabuto's strongest technique? No, Madara has Banbutsu Sōzō whether you choose to accept that is up to you.


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