# "He was the coolest guy"



## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

Did this make anyone else cringe?

Calm down son, he's not that cool.


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## emachina (Jul 30, 2014)

*Obito is the coolest, are you kidding me?*

Hey, that guy that brutally murdered my family, killed my friends, and enslaved all of humanity had the same dream to become Hokage I did. Isn't he the coolest?

I don't care if Obito heel-faced turned. This is ridiculous! And Rin, watching all this, forgives him? I have no words. DEEP WANG!


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## ChickenPotPie (Jul 30, 2014)

Hey Naruto, this same guy strapped on explosive tags onto you right after you were born.


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## Louis-954 (Jul 30, 2014)

Ya forget that he killed his parents, enslaved the Kyuubi, was responsible for 40,000+ deaths in this war alone and that he spearheaded the organization responsible for the death of his sensei, Jiraiya. He was a cool guy.


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## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

i was too busy watching naruto solo black zetsu on that panel to give a darn.


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## Klue (Jul 30, 2014)

I barfed a little.


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## Lord Aizen (Jul 30, 2014)

Yea that was one of the lamest lines I've heard in this manga for a while


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## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

I don't really care about what he did and how he affected Naruto but the phrase itself is just fucking stupid, especially when he said it in an angry way.


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## ItNeverRains (Jul 30, 2014)

He was the coolest guy*.


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## Thdyingbreed (Jul 30, 2014)

That was idiotic calling a mass murder, terrorist, the man who killed his parents and ruined his life.

If anyone in Naruto's life deserved too be called the coolest guy it was Jirayia.


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## iJutsu (Jul 30, 2014)

Let's all calm down. We don't know yet if it's just another mistranslation.


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## son_michael (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto wasn't refering to "Tobi" or "Madara" he was Referring to the Obto who shared his dream.


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## ShinobisWill (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto officially loves Obito more than Jiraiya, Minato, Kakashi and Sasuke. 

Our protagonist, everyone.


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## vagnard (Jul 30, 2014)

Obito strap a explosive onto you when you are a child and cause your parents't death = coolest guy around. 

Kaguya does nothing truly evil = you rip her arm off. 

Naruto is so selective with his bitches. Sasuke and Obito have license to be assholes and do all the shit they want.... but don't even try to capture a jinchuuriki or love money if you aren't his "best friend" or former Hokage candidate like Kakuzu... you will be FRS'ed to dead.


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## izanagi x izanami (Jul 30, 2014)

just few hours ago obito killed off 40k shinobi...lame naruto is lame...


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## ItachiNamikaze (Jul 30, 2014)

He may have redeemed himself, but he doesnt come close to people like Minato and Itachi...


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## Rai (Jul 30, 2014)

Obito and Rin > your favorite character.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Yeah that was pretty fucked.


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## Rawri (Jul 30, 2014)

That was cringeworthy


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## Namikaze Minato Flash (Jul 30, 2014)

We should've known this after the Wave arc. Naruto is easily forgivable and impressed by some of the most vile of shinobi who turn face...


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## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

ItNeverRains said:


> He was the coolest guy*.



Hm?



iJutsu said:


> Let's all calm down. We don't know yet if it's just another mistranslation.



I hope it is, but it does sound like something Nardo would say, unfortunately.


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## Palm Siberia (Jul 30, 2014)

What a cool guy...


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## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

ℜai said:


> Obito and Rin > your favorite character.



>Implying that Rin isn't my favourite character



Rin solos my heart.


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## Agent of Chaos (Jul 30, 2014)

Thdyingbreed said:


> That was idiotic calling a mass murder, terrorist, the man who killed his parents and ruined his life.
> 
> If anyone in Naruto's life deserved too be called the coolest guy it was Jirayia.



The same guy who was a dipshit godfather and had to be conned to even notice Naruto at all?


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## Kyu (Jul 30, 2014)

Thdyingbreed said:


> That was idiotic calling a mass murder, terrorist, the man who killed his parents and ruined his life.
> 
> If anyone in Naruto's life deserved too be called the coolest guy it was Jirayia.



Jiraiya wanted nothing to do with him in the beginning.


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## KevKev (Jul 30, 2014)

...That's Naruto for ya


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## Lady Hinata (Jul 30, 2014)

The "coolest guy?"  
lolno.


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## conradoserpa (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto is talking about the Obito he met. The kid that was just like him.


The Obito that changed Kakashi's heart from something close to Sasuke to what Kakashi is now. The Obito that helped Kakashi to train his students, with his first lesson being this:* "Those that break the rules and regulations are scum. But those who abandon their comrades are worse than scum"*.


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## Tony Lou (Jul 30, 2014)

ChickenPotPie said:


> Hey Naruto, this same guy strapped on explosive tags onto you right after you were born.



Hey Naruto, this same guy kidnapped your mother right after child birth, chained her to a rock and immediately tried to get the Kyuubi to kill her.


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

I was like "WTF is this BS Naruto?" 
I did not even want to see Naruto trying to help him, and then all of sudden he is the coolest guy? 

Never go full retarded mode, Naruto.


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## Hydro Spiral (Jul 30, 2014)

Nardo


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## Chaelius (Jul 30, 2014)

Terrible dialogue and terrible character interaction which is the norm for anything Obito related.

Minato acts like this guy didn't put explosive tags on his newborn and killed him and his wife.
Naruto acts like this guy didn't kill his parents and started a war that killed tens of thousands.
Sasuke ignores Obito's role in the massacre and the fact he had been acting like a bad Palpatine ripoff for hundreds of chapters trying to turn him to the dark side.

Just shitty interactions all around that feel fake and forced, the actual dialogue by itself is terrible to.


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## Palm Siberia (Jul 30, 2014)

Lady Hinata said:


> The "coolest guy?"
> lolno.



Tumblr is crying how dare you mock this tragic death


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## Scila9 (Jul 30, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> Did this make anyone else cringe?



Yeah, I flinched


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## Overhaul (Jul 30, 2014)

Yeahhh,it was hella lame.


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## vagnard (Jul 30, 2014)




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## Combine (Jul 30, 2014)

Chaelius said:


> Terrible dialogue and terrible character interaction which is the norm for anything Obito related.
> 
> Minato acts like this guy didn't put explosive tags on his newborn and killed him and his wife.
> Naruto acts like this guy didn't kill his parents and started a war that killed tens of thousands.
> ...


So much this. It's like Kishi is trying so damn hard to get the readers to force-ably forgive him.

This effort would have been better spent on Nagato who had a more touching childhood story. But Kishi realized he needed something to do with Tobi so he made him another "bad Naruto" archetype.


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## Tony Lou (Jul 30, 2014)

I have nothing against Obito. He was a villain doing villain things.

Overlooking that shit is what's actually messed up. 

Heck, Nagato's scenario wasn't as bad. Naruto forgave him but didn't instantly become BFFs with the guy.


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## ch1p (Jul 30, 2014)

son_michael said:


> Naruto wasn't refering to "Tobi" or "Madara" he was Referring to the Obto who shared his dream.



Yeah that is the connection. Even so, Obito spent half of his life being another person, who did terrible things.

I hope you're not one of those that villify Sasuke by the way.


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## Overhaul (Jul 30, 2014)

Dialogue so bad even the majority of naruto stans hate it.


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## Palm Siberia (Jul 30, 2014)

Stop it you're all nerds who complain about everything clearly Kishimoto is a good writer and you can't accept that fact!!! *Folds arms*


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## Kyu (Jul 30, 2014)

Kishi tryin too hard.


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## Nitharad (Jul 30, 2014)

Madara wanted to be Hokage... 


And it really hurt his feelings when Hashirama was chosen instead.


Where's your sympathy for this poor fellow Naruto?


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## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

Luiz said:


> I have nothing against Obito. He was a villain doing villain things.
> 
> Overlooking that shit is what's actually messed up.
> 
> Heck, Nagato's scenario wasn't as bad. Naruto forgave him but didn't instantly become BFFs with the guy.



Yeah, he took a while with Nagato and he was still angry so it wasn't that bad.


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## Revolution (Jul 30, 2014)

vagnard said:


> Obito strap a explosive onto you when you are a child and cause your parents't death = coolest guy around.
> 
> Kaguya does nothing truly evil = you rip her arm off.
> 
> Naruto is so selective with his bitches. Sasuke and Obito have license to be assholes and do all the shit they want.... but don't even try to capture a jinchuuriki or love money if you aren't his "best friend" or former Hokage candidate like Kakuzu... you will be FRS'ed to dead.




might makes right

Sasuke can see right through it.

So Sasuke become FV


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## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

i do love naruto but he needs to stop being too involved in shit that he doesn't need to be, he doesn't need to relate to every single fucking person in the manga


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## Namikaze Minato Flash (Jul 30, 2014)

This is one of those instances that you hope MS mistranslates for the sake of redeeming Nardo...


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## StickaStick (Jul 30, 2014)

son_michael said:


> Naruto wasn't refering to "Tobi" or "Madara" he was Referring to the Obto who shared his dream.



Yeah, really.

Also are we forgetting Naruto is the same guy who couldn't bring himself to hate Nagato even tho he believed he had killed Kakashi, possibly Tsunade, + a bunch of Konaha fodder at the time? Not saying it isn't overboard, but this isn't exactly out-of-character for Naruto.


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## Palm Siberia (Jul 30, 2014)

Nitharad said:


> Madara wanted to be Hokage...
> 
> 
> And it really hurt his feelings when Hashirama was chosen instead.
> ...



Naruto: You're just like me...


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## Revolution (Jul 30, 2014)

Minerva Orlando said:


> What a cool guy...



I'm going to make this my sig


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## Rose (Jul 30, 2014)

He killed NejI! He killed your parents! He killed...! I understand Obito changing at the end and him being accepted by Naruto is one thing but Obito is not the coolest guy;  he shouldn't be for Naruto at least. That phrase was horrible.


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## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto is soft as fuck and I've come to terms with that. He doesn't need to try and make Obito what he isn't though.


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## conradoserpa (Jul 30, 2014)

You guys know that by touch Naruto can feel other people emotion and everything else, right?


Naruto knows the true Obito. He know Obito was just like him. I don't get why you guys are mad.


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## ChickenPotPie (Jul 30, 2014)

The Format said:


> Yeah, really.
> 
> Also are we forgetting Naruto is the same guy who couldn't bring himself to hate Nagato even tho he believed he had killed Kakashi, possibly Tsunade, + a bunch of Konaha fodder at the time? Not saying it isn't overboard, but this isn't exactly out-of-character for Naruto.



He said he wouldn't forgive Nagato despite refraining from killing him.  Holding back every part of his being with the Kyuubi rage coming from his eyes.  Big difference.


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## Overhaul (Jul 30, 2014)

Minerva Orlando said:


> What a cool guy...



I thought those things that Obito did were cool.

In fact masked Obito was one of the coolest niccas in this manga.

It just sounds bad coming from Naruto.


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## Palm Siberia (Jul 30, 2014)

It's easy to hate but hard to forgive though and I at least understand where Kishi comes from on that point.


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## Harbour (Jul 30, 2014)

Horrible writing by Kishi. Its just off the logic and moral.


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## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

conradoserpa said:


> You guys know that by touch Naruto can feel other people emotion and everything else, right?
> 
> Naruto knows the true Obito. He know Obito was just like him. I don't get why you guys are mad.



Yeah, but I just feel that it was out of place and it came out sounding funny. I could never take him seriously if I was Kaguya.


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## StickaStick (Jul 30, 2014)

ChickenPotPie said:


> He said he wouldn't forgive Nagato despite refraining from killing him.  Holding back every part of his being with the Kyuubi rage coming from his eyes.  Big difference.



When did Naruto ever forgive Obito for his past actions?


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## Thunder (Jul 30, 2014)

Pretty sure Naruto was referring to the Obito who didn't lose his way. Even if he wasn't this is typical Naruto behavior. But really, the dialogue was terrible regardless. "The coolest guy?" Come on.


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## Chaelius (Jul 30, 2014)

The Format said:


> Yeah, really.
> 
> Also are we forgetting Naruto is the same guy who couldn't bring himself to hate Nagato even tho he believed he had killed Kakashi, possibly Tsunade, + a bunch of Konaha fodder at the time? Not saying it isn't overboard, but this isn't exactly out-of-character for Naruto.



I remember that moment and following book conversion being reviled by a lot of the fandom, this is 100x worse so the reaction I'm seeing is appropriate.


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## spiritmight (Jul 30, 2014)

Zabuza

Kurama

Sasuke

Itachi

Kisame

Nagato


The posters of NF must be new to this manga


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## Palm Siberia (Jul 30, 2014)

If it makes you feel better no Obito means no Rinnegan revival


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## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

dear god jesus calm down guys, naruto was sympathizing with the obito that shared his dream.


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## Lelouch71 (Jul 30, 2014)

It didn't bother me. He treated Nagato like his best buddy in this silly war despite all the crap he did. Clearly Naruto is forgiving and doesn't have a moral compass. So this is just Naruto being Naruto.

Besides if he can consider a sociopath like Sasuke his best buddy in the whole wide world he can think Obito is cool too.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

conradoserpa said:


> You guys know that by touch Naruto can feel other people emotion and everything else, right?
> 
> 
> Naruto knows the true Obito. He know Obito was just like him. I don't get why you guys are mad.



Because it's fucked up.

And it was always the TRUE Obito, it's not like a person's nature is an immutable concept. He changed, it's as simple as that.

Obito isn't like the others, he literally ruined Naruto's life!


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## son_michael (Jul 30, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Yeah that is the connection. Even so, Obito spent half of his life being another person, who did terrible things.



Indeed and Naruto chose to forgive him, the same way he chose to forgive Nagato.


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## StickaStick (Jul 30, 2014)

Chaelius said:


> I remember that moment and following book conversion being reviled by a lot of the fandom, this is 100x worse so the reaction I'm seeing is appropriate.


I'm not surprised. Ppl are trying to put themselves in Naruto's shoes when they ain't him. I'm not pretending you or I would even approach the remotest degree of forgiveness, but this has been Naruto's characters since the inception of the manga. I'm actually surprised ppl still don't see this yet.



spiritmight said:


> Zabuza
> 
> Kurama
> 
> ...


Yep.


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## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

Like I said before, it's not the meaning of the words themselves that irk me, although it's pretty fucking stupid it doesn't faze me much. Those words he used tho...


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## Jet Pistol (Jul 30, 2014)

*Obito, the coolest guy*

How is Obito the coolest guy you knew?  
Let's see the number of atrocious acts he's done: 
-he tried to kill you in the first minute of your life by trying to blow you up --killed Hiruzen's wife
-summoned Kurama, which resulted the deaths of many people, which also orphaned many kids
-killed your parents 
-orphaned you
-ruined your childhood
-corrupted your "best friend" Sasuke
-participated in the Uchiha massacre, which traumatized and orphaned Sasuke --got Jiraiya killed
-got jinchuriki killed
-caused a war which resulted in the deaths 40,000+ people
-killed Shikamaru's and Ino's dad
-trash talked your dad
-nearly killed you again during the war
-almost wiped out the alliance several times


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## Scila9 (Jul 30, 2014)

Kishi seems to have thought he could pull the same thing he did in The Land of Waves Arc on Obito (he tried with Nagato too). Thing is, the only reasons it worked with Zabuza and Haku are

1) Zabuza and Haku never wanted to control/destroy the world.

and more importantly

2) It wasn't personal between them and anyone on Team 7.

Obito though (and Nagato to a lesser extent) ... every single thing Obito did fucked one of their lives up.

Sauce is the only one I liked this chapter. Unlike Naruto, he shows no sympathy for the man who played such a major part in destroying his life.


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> Like I said before, it's not the meaning of the words themselves that irk me, although it's pretty fucking stupid it doesn't faze me much. Those words he used tho...



Did not I tell you those things are of fucking annoying? :rofl


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

The Format said:


> I'm not surprised. Ppl are trying to put themselves in Naruto's shoes when they ain't him. I'm not pretending you or I would even approach the remotest degree of forgiveness, but this had been Naruto's characters since the inception of the manga. I'm actually surprised ppl still don't see this yet.



Well, the problem is you and he are just strawmanning people. 

Regardless of whether people are putting themselves in his shoes or not, it doesn't change how completely deranged he looks and how fucked the situation in general looks in trying to make Obito out as if he was just this lost, damaged, puppy. 

We know Naruto forgives people way too often, and it seems funny that you guys forgot very quickly that one of the more vocal criticisms of the story is how Kishi does this with his villains. Everyone knew it was coming, but that doesn't at all change how distasteful it is. Obito is responsible for the major tragedies in Naruto's life. He massacred countless individuals, he is of a far different league of severity as it pertains to the events in the story and Naruto and Sasuke particularly than most of the other antagonists.


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## Chaelius (Jul 30, 2014)

The Format said:


> I'm not surprised. Ppl are trying to put themselves in Naruto's shoes when they ain't him. I'm not pretending you or I would even approach the remotest degree of forgiveness, but this has been Naruto's characters since the inception of the manga. I'm actually surprised ppl still don't see this yet.



What the fuck are you on about? I'm seeing very few posts, actually none, saying this is out of character, just people saying that it's terrible, it's also in Naruto's character to faint in the snow when he's told his BFF is doing bad things, doesn't mean you can't find it awful writing.


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## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

I still don't consider Obito evil, since he was doing it for peace, but could he have not been a bit smarter? He wanted people to be in the dream, but he killed people that he didn't have to who now won't be in that dream.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Nah, Obito was evil. I mean he called himself the "Darkness" that will "tear down the rainbow bridge to peace".


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## Deleted member 23 (Jul 30, 2014)

Chaelius said:


> Terrible dialogue and terrible character interaction which is the norm for anything Obito related.
> 
> Minato acts like this guy didn't put explosive tags on his newborn and killed him and his wife.
> Naruto acts like this guy didn't kill his parents and started a war that killed tens of thousands.
> ...


They forgave him for all that he did. Why is this so hard for some people


conradoserpa said:


> You guys know that by touch Naruto can feel other people emotion and everything else, right?
> 
> 
> Naruto knows the true Obito. He know Obito was just like him. I don't get why you guys are mad.


Because they hate Obito, watch when Naruto wanks Obito some more they'll get even more mad


Seto Kaiba said:


> Because it's fucked up.
> 
> And it was always the TRUE Obito, it's not like a person's nature is an immutable concept. He changed, it's as simple as that.
> 
> Obito isn't like the others, he literally ruined Naruto's life!



No he wasn't, in his mind and heart he wasn't really like that. Hence why in his subconscious he regretted them and why they pulled the tailed beasts out of him.

And Naruto forgave him for all that he did.


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## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Nah, Obito was evil. I mean he called himself the "Darkness" that will "tear down the rainbow bridge to peace".



He had good intentions though, does him adopting the persona of Madara really make him evil? At the end of the day, he wanted good for the world.


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## ch1p (Jul 30, 2014)

son_michael said:


> Indeed and Naruto chose to forgive him, the same way he chose to forgive Nagato.



Naruto didn't forgive either. I remember him saying that he didn't forgive them. The problem isn't Naruto forgiving them by the way. It's calling him the 'coolest guy'. You may forgive someone for their transgressions. You don't praise them for it though. Which is what Naruto did.


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## SharkBomb 4 (Jul 30, 2014)

I was like "I know he's the coolest guy but YOU shouldn't".

Seriously, the only person who understands how much of a dick Obito was (besides Obito himself) was Black Zetsu.


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## StickaStick (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Well, the problem is you and he are just strawmanning people.
> 
> Regardless of whether people are putting themselves in his shoes or not, it doesn't change how completely deranged he looks and how fucked the situation in general looks in trying to make Obito out as if he was just this lost, damaged, puppy.
> 
> We know Naruto forgives people way too often, and it seems funny that you guys forgot very quickly that one of the more vocal criticisms of the story is how Kishi does this with his villains. Everyone knew it was coming, but that doesn't at all change how distasteful it is. Obito is responsible for the major tragedies in Naruto's life. He massacred countless individuals, he is of a far different league of severity as it pertains to the events in the story and Naruto and Sasuke particularly than most of the other antagonists.



No, the problem is that you, among others, are trying to judge characters in a fictional word by our standards. Apparently these things are more forgivable/acceptable then you and anyone care to admit. No one in their universe is crying bloody murder, even if they should in our eyes. Look at Naruto's, Sakura's, Minato, et al. reactions. The only one's complaining are the ones on these forums. Certain individuals will never get this through their heads.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> He had good intentions though, does him adopting the persona of Madara really make him evil? At the end of the day, he wanted good for the world.



His good meant the end of everyone's sense of free will, and killing anyone that disagreed. Hell, just killing people period because he thought it didn't matter. So yes, he was evil.


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## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> His good meant the end of everyone's sense of free will, and killing anyone that disagreed. Hell, just killing people period because he thought it didn't matter. So yes, he was evil.



Yeah, that makes sense. I tend to judge evil harshly when it comes to selfish matters. I believe that MS Sauce was evil.


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## Ashi (Jul 30, 2014)

Obito did save his life twice now and Kakashi's



Meh Narutoforums sometimes I just can't even


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## Lady Hinata (Jul 30, 2014)

Minerva Orlando said:


> Tumblr is crying how dare you mock this tragic death




*Spoiler*: __ 



No but seriously "the coolest" was a little much, but it was a little sad. A _little_.


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## ChickenPotPie (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Nah, Obito was evil. I mean he called himself the "Darkness" that will "tear down the rainbow bridge to peace".



 Jesus Christ


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Obito did save his life twice now and Kakashi's
> 
> 
> 
> Meh Narutoforums sometimes I just can't even



Obito was the reason he was in those situations to begin with. 
and even if he saved him twice, he tried to kill him countless times.


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## Melas (Jul 30, 2014)

This is a core theme. No one is beyond redemption. Naruto forgives.

Nagato killed Jiraiya, but Naruto liked him after his conversion. Same with Obito.



son_michael said:


> Naruto wasn't refering to "Tobi" or "Madara" he was Referring to the Obto who shared his dream.



Voice of reason on this forum. Rare.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Jul 30, 2014)

This has always been his character.


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## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Naruto didn't forgive either. I remember him saying that he didn't forgive them. The problem isn't Naruto forgiving them by the way. It's calling him the 'coolest guy'. You may forgive someone for their transgressions. *You don't praise them for it though. Which is what Naruto did.*


Ehh no he never, where did naruto praise obito for the shit he did? he praised him for his ambition to aspire to become hokage.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

The Format said:


> No, the problem is that you, among others, are trying to judge characters in a fictional word by our standards. Apparently these things are more forgivable/acceptable then you and anyone care to admit. No one in their universe is crying bloody murder, even if they should in our eyes. Look at Naruto's, Sakura's, Minato, et al. reactions. The only one's complaining are the ones on these forums. Certain individuals will never get this through their heads.



Well, yes. We do so because that is what Kishi intends for us to do by his attempts at relating themes and concepts to us through his characters and storytelling. Furthermore, you can't divorce these concepts from reality anyway, because Kishi attempts to use that reference when he conveys these themes, morals, and concepts in his story as he has admitted repeatedly. This is the same desperate argument I've seen make on a number of completely messed up situations. Kishi is trying to make it out that this guy is worthy of sympathy, TO THE READER. To do that, guess what he has to do? 

That's right...appeal to an actual sense of standard and morality on the matter. Which he can't do, because it goes well beyond that limit. hence the reactions you see in this thread. It's why people call it a story of "broken aesops", because that is exactly what it is. "IT'S FICTION" is only valid regarding its laws of nature, not those immutable "human" concepts which only reality can define. Maybe that is something _you_ need to get through _your_ head.


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## Deleted member 23 (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Obito was the reason he was in those situations to begin with.
> and even if he saved him twice, he tried to kill him countless times.



And he forgave Obito for all those evils and will now only remember the good. It's not that hard bro


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## spiritmight (Jul 30, 2014)

klad said:


> And he forgave Obito for all those evils and will now only remember the good. It's not that hard bro




Yep.

NF man


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## X Pain X (Jul 30, 2014)

Obito was a cool guy. eh died and didn't afraid anything.


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## son_michael (Jul 30, 2014)

ch1p said:


> Naruto didn't forgive either. I remember him saying that he didn't forgive them. The problem isn't Naruto forgiving them by the way. It's calling him the 'coolest guy'. You may forgive someone for their transgressions. You don't praise them for it though. Which is what Naruto did.



People choose how they want to remember an individual. They can remember them for all their faults or their best moments before they fell.


Naruto chose to remember both of them  having great dreams for good reasons and sad circumstances that made them into people who weren't their true selves.


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## theworks (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto is crying over the man who killed his parents.

Never change, Naruto.

Batman would be so proud of you.


----------



## Csdabest (Jul 30, 2014)

Kills mom and dad. Destroys shinobi world makes your best friend a world wide wanted criminal= coolest guy ever. Oh yeah kills one of your wives cousin lol


----------



## iJutsu (Jul 30, 2014)

Just reread it again. Naruto isn't calling him cool because he was an evil bastard. He was calling him cool because he wanted to be a hokage. Being hokage is all Naruto really cares about.


----------



## CuteJuubi (Jul 30, 2014)

son_michael said:


> Naruto wasn't refering to "Tobi" or "Madara" he was Referring to the Obto who shared his dream.



^ Exactly this.


----------



## ChickenPotPie (Jul 30, 2014)

X Pain X said:


> Obito was a cool guy. eh died and didn't afraid anything.



He wasn't afraid of Konan.  He choked her to death.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> Yep.
> 
> NF man



Yes, Naruto forgave Obito. _Obviously._ That however does nothing to address how people and why people are reacting to this the way they are.

The issue here is the attempt to portray it as a _good thing_, and Obito himself as sympathetic.


----------



## Fatality (Jul 30, 2014)

"As long as you want to become Hokage, you can commit genocide with reckless abandon. Believe it." - Naruto


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Well, yes. We do so because that is what Kishi intends for us to do by his attempts at relating themes and concepts to us through his characters and storytelling. Furthermore, you can't divorce these concepts from reality anyway, because Kishi attempts to use that reference when he conveys these themes, morals, and concepts in his story as he has admitted repeatedly. This is the same desperate argument I've seen make on a number of completely messed up situations. Kishi is trying to make it out that this guy is worthy of sympathy, TO THE READER. To do that, guess what he has to do?
> 
> That's right...appeal to an actual sense of standard and morality on the matter. Which he can't do, because it goes well beyond that limit. hence the reactions you see in this thread. It's why people call it a story of "broken aesops", because that is exactly what it is. "IT'S FICTION" is only valid regarding its laws of nature, not those immutable "human" concepts which only reality can define. Maybe that is something _you_ need to get through _your_ head.


Then you're reading the wrong manga. If Kishi's sense of morality, or that which he is trying to portray, doesn't appeal to you, or worse yet it is seen as offensive then it's time to either pick up a different manga or do your best to ignore it all together. 

If this were RL and I were in Naruto's position I would probably have wanted Obito tortured until the brink of death and then executed. But I understand that is now how the laws and norms of their world as Kishi is portraying it work. You can be classified as a high-level criminal but it really amounts to nothing because ultimately their emotions are more flexible. This should have become abundantly apparent after Naruto couldn't bring himself to kill Nagato and he implied Itachi to be a true hero despite what he's done. I judge it from their perspective, not mine.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

klad said:


> And he forgave Obito for all those evils and will now only remember the good. It's not that hard bro



I don't care whether he forgave him or not (which is bad enough)
he went way beyond that and called that garbage the coolest guy.  

like seriously, if a mass murderer is the coolest guy, then how would the worst look like? 
or perhaps the worst is the one who does the complete opposite of what obito did to Narudo?


----------



## Yagami1211 (Jul 30, 2014)

I agree with Naruto on this one.


----------



## Mizura (Jul 30, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> Just reread it again. Naruto isn't calling him cool because he was an evil bastard. He was calling him cool because he wanted to be a hokage. Being hokage is all Naruto really cares about.


Does that make Danzou the coolest guy too?


----------



## spiritmight (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Yes, Naruto forgave Obito. _Obviously._ That however does nothing to address how people and why people are reacting to this the way they are.
> 
> The issue here is the attempt to portray it as a _good thing_, and Obito himself as sympathetic.




I guess I should clarify.

Naruto forgave, acknowledged, and paid his respects to "*Obito*."

Kakashi's childhood friend, the dorky Uchiha kid who helped elderly people and wore goggles.

Not "Tobi" or "Madara".

That was the whole point of his TNJ and Obito's conversion. The "mask" was torn off and the person left behind was the person Naruto chose to acknowledge. Simple as that


----------



## Skywalker (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto says a lot of cringe worthy things in situations like this, is it that big of a deal?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

The Format said:


> Then you're reading the wrong manga. If Kishi's sense of morality, or that which he is trying to portray, doesn't appeal to you, or worse yet it is seen as offensive then it's time to either pick up a different manga or do your best to ignore it all together.



Actually it's interesting to note his failures in attempts to portray these themes. It has helped a lot on realizing exactly what pitfalls an author should avoid when handling them in his story. 



> If this were RL and I were in Naruto's position I would probably have wanted Obito tortured until the brink of death and then executed. But I understand that is now how the laws and norms of their world as Kishi is portraying it work.



Except in the "norms of their world" Obito would undoubtedly be executed. 

The fact that you keep trying to repeat to the fiction argument on a real concept only shows you have no idea how Kishi or any other attempts to portray them in the story and relate them to the reader. Or that you do, and trying to avoid that fact. 



> You can be classified as a high-level criminal but it really amounts to nothing because ultimately their emotions are more flexible. This should have become abundantly apparent after Naruto couldn't bring himself to kill Nagato and he implied Itachi to be a true hero despite what he's done. I judge it from their perspective, not mine.



Missing the point entirely. Everyone knew this was happening, but it doesn't make it come off as any less screwed up.



> I guess I should clarify.
> 
> Naruto forgave, acknowledged, and paid his respects to "Obito."
> 
> ...



Obito was always Obito, even if he was doing heinous actions behind a mask and false identity. Hell...Obito was evil for 15-17 years of the 30 of his life.


----------



## theworks (Jul 30, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> Just reread it again. Naruto isn't calling him cool because he was an evil bastard. He was calling him cool because he wanted to be a hokage. Being hokage is all Naruto really cares about.



And that makes Naruto an asshole, because he's conveniently forgetting about all the people who have died because of Obito. Not a nice quality for a protagonist.


----------



## CuteJuubi (Jul 30, 2014)

What Naruto said is perfectly in line with his character, if you found this cringeworthy or didn't expect something along these lined then you're a neophyte fan of this series.


----------



## Deleted member 23 (Jul 30, 2014)

Fatality said:


> "As long as you want to become Hokage, you can commit genocide with reckless abandon. Believe it." - Naruto


Straw man


Hussain said:


> I don't care whether he forgave him or not (which is bad enough)
> he went way beyond that and called that garbage the coolest guy.
> 
> like seriously, if a mass murderer is the coolest guy, then how would the worst look like?
> or perhaps the worst is the one who does the complete opposite of what obito did to Narudo?


He cooled the Obito that had the same dream as him and Kakashi's Obito a cool guy. Not the mass murderer.


----------



## theworks (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I don't care whether he forgave him or not (which is bad enough)
> he went way beyond that and called that garbage the coolest guy.
> 
> like seriously, if a mass murderer is the coolest guy, then how would the worst look like?
> or perhaps the worst is the one who does the complete opposite of what obito did to Narudo?



The worst guy is obviously the person who doesn't agree with Naruto.


----------



## Addy (Jul 30, 2014)

CuteJuubi said:


> What Naruto said is perfectly in line with his character, if you found this cringeworthy or didn't expect something along these lined then you're a neophyte fan of this series.



true but sakura can pull down her pants right this instant and drop a big one over obito's ashes. it would be perfectly in line with her character but just because something is habit, doesn't make it any less bad


----------



## ch1p (Jul 30, 2014)

This series has themes of acceptance, forgiveness, second (and third and fourth...) and all that jazz. That is one thing. What Naruto did this chapter wasn't any of this. It was calling a mass murderer, the guy who killed his family and sentenced him to a childhood of painful loneliess the coolest. It's not the same thing. One thing is to forgive someone for the bad things they did, another thing is to praise them like this even though they did bad things.

EDIT: Another thing. Some of you are saying that Naruto is paying his respects to the old Obito. That's fine and dandy, but that's not the Obito that Naruto knew and its not the Obito that has influenced (it was Kakashi, redeemed by Obito, but Kakashi nevertheless). He has known this old Obito for like an hour or so and he wasn't affected by him. Yet he thinks he's the _coolest_. Come on now.

Naruto should have said 'He was once the coolest' or 'He managed to become the coolest again', with a clear standing of the before and after, with praising of before and no priasing of the after. Much like he should have told Hagoromo that Sasuke and him were once friends, not that they're friends ATM. The handling of Naruto's character is horrible at this point.


----------



## ziemiak11 (Jul 30, 2014)

That was just too much. Obito is the one responsible for 80 % of bad things happened around Naruto:
-death of his parents 
-death of many people during Kyubi incident and because of that Naruto being hated almost whole hiss life
-death of Jiraya
-destruction of Konoha
-current war 
and all of this because of selfish desire of meeting 13 years old girl.

He IS NOT cool


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Actually it's interesting to note his failures in attempts to portray these themes. It has helped a lot on realizing exactly what pitfalls an author should avoid when handling them in his story.


You basically ignored what I said and equated it to failures on his part as opposed to a lack of perspective on yours, when it's probably a healthy combination of both. 

I should also point out that you originally disagreed with not how it was portrayed, but on principle. As in, no matter how it was done you would have found a problem with it.

_Regardless of whether people are putting themselves in his shoes or not, it doesn't change how completely deranged he looks and how fucked the situation in general looks in trying to make Obito out as if he was just this lost, damaged, puppy. _


----------



## Dreamer2go (Jul 30, 2014)

You guys are missing the point.
I get why it doesn't make sense... maybe the phrase "coolest guy ever" isn't the right term, but I get Naruto's emotions..
Yes, Obito is to blame for killing Naruto's parents, and turning Sasuke to the darkside...... but in recent chapters, Obito was redeeming himself, preparing himself to die to find Sasuke in Kaguya's dimensions, sacrificing himself to save Naruto and Kakashi, turned from "bad" to "good"....

I think Naruto is very forgiving, which is his character. He never hated Sasuke... He indirectly "forgave" Nagato... He once hated Itachi, but then became allies with him....... the common theme is that: once Naruto gets the other person's story, he will forgive them.

It ultimately relates back to his fight with Pain...... something like "once everyone truly understands one another, there can be a better world"


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

klad said:


> He cooled the Obito that had the same dream as him and Kakashi's Obito a cool guy. Not the mass murderer.



which is at the end of the day the same guy. 
that does not make obito any left of a mass murderer. 

May God bless you BZ, you're the only voice of reason.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> which is at the end of the day the same guy.
> that does not make obito any left of a mass murderer.
> 
> May God bless you BZ, you're the only voice of reason.



Things aren't black or white, Obito had circumstances that drove him to his madness and now that he regained his senses Naruto chooses to forget or ignore that person because it wasn't the true Obito.

Once the mask came off, Obito slowly began to regain himself.


----------



## Deana (Jul 30, 2014)

I don't think Naruto's words about Obito would be Kushina approved.

Kushina: I'm sitting here, in the background, waiting to torment that little bastard for all eternity but my dipshit son is down there calling that asshole cool.


----------



## sakuraboobs (Jul 30, 2014)

His body is the coolest.


----------



## Palpatine (Jul 30, 2014)

Caused Naruto's parents deaths, slaughtered the Uchiha, tried to kill a baby, caused a world war that killed thousands, enslaved the Kyuubi, nearly destroyed the hidden leaf, formed the most infamous criminal organization in the world.

Yeah, cool guy.


----------



## IDontHateYou (Jul 30, 2014)

wasn't Naruto referring to the "old" obito?


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

ch1p said:


> This series has themes of acceptance, forgiveness, second (and third and fourth...) and all that jazz. That is one thing. What Naruto did this chapter wasn't any of this. *It was calling a mass murderer, the guy who killed his family and sentenced him to a childhood of painful loneliess the coolest. It's not the same thing. One thing is to forgive someone for the bad things they did, another thing is to praise them like this even though they did bad things.
> *
> EDIT: Another thing. Some of you are saying that Naruto is paying his respects to the old Obito. That's fine and dandy, but that's not the Obito that Naruto knew and its not the Obito that has influenced (it was Kakashi, redeemed by Obito, but Kakashi nevertheless). He has known this old Obito for like an hour or so and he wasn't affected by him. Yet he thinks he's the _coolest_. Come on now.
> 
> Naruto should have said 'He was once the coolest' or 'He managed to become the coolest again', with a clear standing of the before and after, with praising of before and no priasing of the after. Much like he should have told Hagoromo that Sasuke and him were once friends, not that they're friends ATM. The handling of Naruto's character is horrible at this point.


once again naruto never did anything of the such, can you read? "_obito wanted to become hokage_ to me he was the coolest guy" he was clearly sympathizing with the obito that wanted to become hokage, don't twist what naruto said to feed your clear hate over him. continue being salty.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

The Format said:


> You basically ignored what I said and equated it to failures on his part as opposed to a lack of perspective on yours, when it's probably a healthy combination of both.
> 
> I should also point out that you originally disagreed with not how it was portrayed, but on principle. As in, no matter how it was done you would have found a problem with it.
> 
> _Regardless of whether people are putting themselves in his shoes or not, it doesn't change how completely deranged he looks and how fucked the situation in general looks in trying to make Obito out as if he was just this lost, damaged, puppy. _



_Then you're reading the wrong manga. If Kishi's sense of morality, or that which he is trying to portray, doesn't appeal to you, or worse yet it is seen as offensive then it's time to either pick up a different manga or do your best to ignore it all together._

This? It was irrelevant. You were trying to dodge the point I made to you, as to why people are reacting to this the way they are. 

It _is_ a complete failure on his part, and yes, it would have not worked, especially not with the trend in handling this matter as of recent in the story. Kishi went well beyond the thresholds of the concepts he tries to convey in his story time and again, and with Obito especially in regards to how central he is to the story's tragedies, and the main characters' own, and the atrocities he committed in and of themselves. It only indicates a lack of perspective from Kishi if he has the expectation that in line with his attempts, people would find Obito sympathetic and be in awe of Naruto's forgiveness of Obito. That is just not a reasonable expectation.

Why is it not a reasonable expectation? Because again, it completely breaks the limits those concepts he touched upon for probably most people. You would not sit there and try and pretend that it is the reasonable limits of an average individual to overlook the evils of the like Obito performed in his lifetime. Especially if they were so personally connected to the individual's current circumstances. In which case, don't expect them to find it sympathetic in the story either.


----------



## Deleted member 23 (Jul 30, 2014)

Narutossss said:


> once again naruto never did anything of the such, can you read? "_obito wanted to become hokage_ to me he was the coolest guy" he was clearly sympathizing with the obito that wanted to become hokage, don't twist what naruto said to feed your clear hate over him. continue being salty.



obligatory


----------



## chocy (Jul 30, 2014)

It is just Naruto's way of expressing that he has accepted and forgiven Obito, and was sad to see him go. This is in light of all the bad and good things that Obito has done. Of course some would prefer Obito to be tortured or brutally killed for all the sins that he has committed. But the fact that the one who received the bulk of Obito's bad deeds chose to forgive and accept him, that is the compelling message that Kishi wanted to send. It is definitely not rational, but hey, different folks different strokes.


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

klad said:


> obligatory


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> _Then you're reading the wrong manga. If Kishi's sense of morality, or that which he is trying to portray, doesn't appeal to you, or worse yet it is seen as offensive then it's time to either pick up a different manga or do your best to ignore it all together._
> 
> This? It was irrelevant. You were trying to dodge the point I made to you, as to why people are reacting to this the way they are.
> 
> It _is_ a complete failure on his part, *and yes, it would have not worked, especially not with the trend in handling this matter as of recent in the story. Kishi went well beyond the thresholds of the concepts he tries to convey in his story time and again, and with Obito especially. The guy in regards to how central he is to the story's tragedies, and the main characters' own, it only indicates a lack of perspective from Kishi with the expectation that in line with his attempts, people would find Obito sympathetic and be in awe of Naruto's forgiveness of Obito. That is just not a reasonable expectation.*


How is what you italicized irrelevant when you essentially admit that's the issue in the bolded? I can understand if you and others find what he's attempting to portray obscene, but how exactly is this new? Honestly, if I found it as bothersome as some of you do then I would have dropped the manga a while back.


----------



## theworks (Jul 30, 2014)

Narutossss said:


> once again naruto never did anything of the such, can you read? "_obito wanted to become hokage_ to me he was the coolest guy" he was clearly sympathizing with the obito that wanted to become hokage, don't twist what naruto said to feed your clear hate over him. continue being salty.



The Obito that wanted to be Hokage = the Obito that placed a paper bomb on a minutes-old baby. It's not like he was possessed. Obito's dreams don't override his actions.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

The Format said:


> How is what you italicized irrelevant when you essentially admit that's the issue in the bolded? I can understand if you and others find what he's attempting to portray obscene, but how exactly is this new? Honestly, if I found it as bothersome as some of you do then I would have dropped the manga a while back.



If you have to ask that, then you have no argument to make here. That doesn't stop me or anyone really, from wanting to see how other events unfold. Or from wanting to read the story in general, for whatever reason they have. Regardless, everyone knew as soon as Obito was unmasked he'd inevitably TNJed like the other antagonists, and that it would be a flop. Lo and behold...they were right.


----------



## Lurko (Jul 30, 2014)

Obito was pretty cool until Naruto converted the dude, dude was Naruto gone really wrong but no let's make him good again.


----------



## Chad (Jul 30, 2014)

If you ask Naruto what "rationalism" means, he wouldn't know what it means.


----------



## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

"I can't see him as anything but awesome"

I don't know which is worse. 

Just shows how some characters don't care if you have fucked up the world.


----------



## Hydro Spiral (Jul 30, 2014)

MS version is even cheesier by me, lol.

Makes him sound like a fan


----------



## Nic (Jul 30, 2014)

come on do you expect anything different from Naruto? 

dude forgave Nagato immediately, so of course he'd do the same for Obito.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

Nic said:


> come on do you expect anything different from Naruto?
> 
> dude forgave Nagato immediately, so of course he'd do the same for Obito.



I don't know how can people even make a comparison between obito and Nagato. 

Nagato at the end of the day killed only Jiraiya
(and even that, it was obito was manipulating him) 
everyone else was revived.

How does that even come close to what obito did exactly?


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> If you have to ask that, then you have no argument to make here.


Well, I tried to give you a chance to explain your position and how it's irrelevant, but since you can't I'll take that to be your concession.



> That doesn't stop me or anyone really, from wanting to see how other events unfold. Or from wanting to read the story in general, for whatever reason they have. Regardless, everyone knew as soon as Obito was unmasked he'd inevitably TNJed like the other antagonists, and that it would be a flop. Lo and behold...they were right.


So you're one of those readers who sticks around just because and to complain about how bad the story has gotten, judging by the other posts you make. Gotcha. No need for me to continue replying to your posts then since we seem done here.



Hussain said:


> I don't know how can people even make a comparison between obito and Nagato.
> 
> Nagato at the end of the day killed only Jiraiya


Naruto thought Kakashi and a bunch of Konaha civilians/fodder were dead when he said he couldn't bring himself to kill Nagato 

and what about Naruto implying Itachi to be a true hero 



> (and even that, it was obito was manipulating him)


Nagato had his own plan at the time 



> everyone else was revived.


After he said he couldn't kill him


----------



## Chad (Jul 30, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> "I can't see him as anything but awesome"
> 
> I don't know which is worse.
> 
> Just shows how some characters don't care if you have fucked up the world.



Take off that avatar and put on an Itachi one.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 30, 2014)

This is why Naruto's a terrible character. The guy killed your parents, unleashed the nine tails on the village, killed Neji, summoned the Juubi, became the Juubi Jinchuuriki and tried to put the world under an eternal genjutsu and he's the coolest guy you know? Are you fucking serious right now?


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

theworks said:


> *The Obito that wanted to be Hokage = the Obito that placed a paper bomb on a minutes-old baby*. It's not like he was possessed. Obito's dreams don't override his actions.


not even close.


----------



## Yagami1211 (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I don't know how can people even make a comparison between obito and Nagato.
> 
> Nagato at the end of the day killed only Jiraiya
> (and even that, it was obito was manipulating him)
> ...



Oh, I know. You wanted a big Rinne Tensei for everyone ?



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> This is why Naruto's a terrible character. The guy killed your parents, unleashed the nine tails on the village, killed Neji, summoned the Juubi, became the Juubi Jinchuuriki and tried to put the world under an eternal genjutsu and he's the coolest guy you know? Are you fucking serious right now?



Still tried to atone. Anyway it's better for him to die anyway. He would have been tried and sentenced, while alive.


----------



## eurytus (Jul 30, 2014)

90% of naruto's lines are cringey and corny. But this is taking it to a new height, it's hilarious xD

BZ is awesome this chapter


----------



## ch1p (Jul 30, 2014)

Narutossss said:


> once again naruto never did anything of the such, can you read? "_obito wanted to become hokage_ to me he was the coolest guy" he was clearly sympathizing with the obito that wanted to become hokage, don't twist what naruto said to feed your clear hate over him. continue being salty.



I can read. I'm well aware, as I've said three times in this thread, that Naruto was calling the old Obito the coolest. Can *you* read? Because you don't look like you can, since you've missed it.

The problem here isn't that. The problem here is this:



ch1p said:


> Yeah that is the connection. Even so, Obito spent half of his life being another person, who did terrible things.
> 
> I hope you're not one of those that villify Sasuke by the way.





ch1p said:


> Naruto didn't forgive either. I remember him saying that he didn't forgive them. The problem isn't Naruto forgiving them by the way. It's calling him the 'coolest guy'. You may forgive someone for their transgressions. You don't praise them for it though. Which is what Naruto did.





ch1p said:


> This series has themes of acceptance, forgiveness, second (and third and fourth...) and all that jazz. That is one thing. What Naruto did this chapter wasn't any of this. It was calling a mass murderer, the guy who killed his family and sentenced him to a childhood of painful loneliess the coolest. It's not the same thing. One thing is to forgive someone for the bad things they did, another thing is to praise them like this even though they did bad things.
> 
> EDIT: Another thing. Some of you are saying that Naruto is paying his respects to the old Obito. That's fine and dandy, but that's not the Obito that Naruto knew and its not the Obito that has influenced (it was Kakashi, redeemed by Obito, but Kakashi nevertheless). He has known this old Obito for like an hour or so and he wasn't affected by him. Yet he thinks he's the _coolest_. Come on now.
> 
> Naruto should have said 'He was once the coolest' or 'He managed to become the coolest again', with a clear standing of the before and after, with praising of before and no priasing of the after. Much like he should have told Hagoromo that Sasuke and him were once friends, not that they're friends ATM. The handling of Naruto's character is horrible at this point.



Have fun. _Reading._


----------



## Harbour (Jul 30, 2014)

Sounds even worse in MS translation.

"You are so awesome, the murderer of over 9k people, including my parents, godfather and friends!"


----------



## Raniero (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto is such an awful character.


----------



## theworks (Jul 30, 2014)

Narutossss said:


> not even close.



... you do realise they're the same person?


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

Yagami1211 said:


> Oh, I know. You wanted a big Rinne Tensei for everyone ?
> 
> 
> 
> Still tried to atone. Anyway it's better for him to die anyway. He would have been tried and sentenced, while alive.



RT will probably happen at the end by madara. 
but anyway, Nagato did the RT whether people like it or not, and everyone was revived but Jiraiya.
which means his overall kill was only 1.

That nothing compared to what Obito has done, NOTHING.


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

theworks said:


> ... you do realise they're the same person?


obviously, but no way in hell is konoha obito and masked obito the same.


----------



## Undead (Jul 30, 2014)

What the fuck is Kishi smoking, and where can I get some?


----------



## Yagami1211 (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> RT will probably happen at the end by madara.
> but anyway, Nagato did the RT whether people like it or not, and everyone was revived but Jiraiya.
> which means his overall kill was only 1.
> 
> That nothing compared to what Obito has done, NOTHING.



Conveniently forgetting story parts are we ?
I mean, Nagato fucked up Hanzou's whole family and friends and god knows how many people too.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 30, 2014)

Yagami1211 said:


> Conveniently forgetting story parts are we ?
> I mean, Nagato fucked up Hanzou's whole family and friends and god knows how many people too.



Not to mention RT happened _after _Naruto said he couldn't kill Nagato. He didn't know Nagato was even capable of restoring life then.


----------



## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

Narutossss said:


> obviously, but no way in hell is konoha obito and masked obito the same.



That's true. 



Paragon said:


> What the fuck is Kishi smoking, and where can I get some?



*Sniffing



Yagami1211 said:


> Conveniently forgetting story parts are we ?
> I mean, Nagato fucked up Hanzou's whole family and friends and god knows how many people too.



Nagato was very fucked up. Whereas Obito only wanted to get his job done, Nagato killed Hanzo's family presumably to make himself feel better, he's still pathetic in my opinion. He's worse than Obito in some respects.


----------



## ShadowFox88 (Jul 30, 2014)

This is a prime example of why the "Messiah" or "Jesus" like trope for a MC or character in general will fail 99.99% of the time whether it's in a shounen, Sci-FI, action, etc.


----------



## Rokudaime (Jul 30, 2014)

Some of you guys were petty or vengeful person. Obito already dead, and the last thing he needs is another guy try to spit on his grave. Naruto, a fictinal character is a lot better than some of you guys here.at least he knows to respect the dead.

Not to mention, Obito saved Naruto's life.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

Yagami1211 said:


> Conveniently forgetting story parts are we ?
> I mean, Nagato fucked up Hanzou's whole family and friends and god knows how many people too.



and what does Naruto know about that? Yes, he does not.  
not to mention, in that case, it's Hanzo who started the whole thing so he is the guilty one. 

Here, it's obito who started everything...
and Naruto knows about all of his crimes...


----------



## Nic (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I don't know how can people even make a comparison between obito and Nagato.
> 
> Nagato at the end of the day killed only Jiraiya
> (and even that, it was obito was manipulating him)
> ...



well first of all you could argue that to Naruto Jiraiya's death was worse since Jiraiya was his actual father figure.  Secondly wait until Madara ends up reviving everyone.


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> and what does Naruto know about that? Yes, he does not.
> not to mention, in that case, it's Hanzo who started the whole thing so he is the guilty one.
> *
> Here, it's obito who started everything...*


actually black zetsu started everything, madara was his pawn and obito was marada's pawn.


----------



## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

Rokudaime said:


> Some of you guys were petty or vengeful person. Obito already dead, and the last thing he needs is another guy try to spit on his grave. Naruto, a fictinal character is a lot better than some of you guys here.at least he knows to respect the dead.
> 
> Not to mention, Obito saved Naruto's life.



Naruto is a fucking fictional Jesus, you expect many people in real life to have that level of tolerance for filth?



ch1p said:


> Forsake your username.



No. Kakashi is my second fav and I haven't worn many avatars with him either. I must repent.


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> Naruto is a fucking fictional Jesus, you expect many people in real life to have that level of tolerance for filth?


martin luther king jr............ just saying.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Rokudaime said:


> Some of you guys were petty or vengeful person. Obito already dead, and the last thing he needs is another guy try to spit on his grave. Naruto, a fictinal character is a lot better than some of you guys here.at least he knows to respect the dead.
> 
> Not to mention, Obito saved Naruto's life.



wat.

It is not unreasonable for a person to refuse to forgive a guy that is responsible for the deaths of countless individuals and is the cause of the key tragedies and hardships in the story. Don't try to turn this around on everyone else, Naruto comes off as deranged doing that.

Obito also tried to kill Naruto multiple times, and responsible for the death of his parents and that of Iruka's, as well Kurenai's father, Sarutobi's wife, and the events that led up to the Uchiha massacre.


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 30, 2014)

That line was so horribly bad it made me throw up in my mouth. It may fit the way Kishi is writing Naruto, but still I wish he had chosen to say something different.


----------



## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

Narutossss said:


> martin luther king jr............ just saying.



Well, Rokudaime made the point that a fictional character is a better person than some of us here, when that character is fucking Naruto.

Weren't there claims about him cheating on his wife or something?

If he did then he's a piece of shit nonetheless.


----------



## ShadowFox88 (Jul 30, 2014)

This whitewashing people are rationalizing in this thread is as bad if not worst than Kishi doing it in story.



Jesus.


----------



## Fruits Basket Fan (Jul 30, 2014)

If coolest you mean: killed family and friends, then yes.....he is a cool, sick fuck !!!!


----------



## Nic (Jul 30, 2014)

Not condoning at all what Naruto said, since it's completely absurd. 

What i find funny though is that many find this to be shocking when shounen main characters forgiving villains when they turn back to the good side is rampant in fiction.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> Well, Rokudaime made the point that a fictional character is a better person than some of us here, when that character is fucking Naruto.
> 
> Weren't there claims about him cheating on his wife or something?
> 
> If he did then he's a piece of shit nonetheless.



That does not make him a better person. Shit, that's like saying the girl that forgives her cheating, abusive douche of a man is better than the woman that doesn't. Just for a VERY mild example. Clearly, that isn't true. There is a threshold on the limits of forgiveness and where it goes against sanity. 

How would that make him a piece of shit? How is he a piece of shit at all?



			
				Nic said:
			
		

> What i find funny though is that many find this to be shocking when shounen main characters forgiving villains when they turn back to the good side is rampant in fiction.



Not even Goku forgave Frieza.


----------



## mrsaphen (Jul 30, 2014)

Jet Pistol said:


> How is Obito the coolest guy you knew?
> Let's see the number of atrocious acts he's done:
> -he tried to kill you in the first minute of your life by trying to blow you up --killed Hiruzen's wife
> -summoned Kurama, which resulted the deaths of many people, which also orphaned many kids
> ...



pretty cool stuff.


----------



## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> That does not make him a better person. Shit, that's like saying the girl that forgives her cheating douche of a man is better than the woman that doesn't. Just for a VERY mild example.
> 
> How would that make him a piece of shit? How is he a piece of shit at all?



I know that. I'm not exactly the forgiving type either.

I don't like cheaters, he's not a piece of shit, I said "if".


----------



## ch1p (Jul 30, 2014)

Nic said:


> Not condoning at all what Naruto said, since it's completely absurd.
> 
> What i find funny though is that many find this to be shocking when shounen main characters forgiving villains when they turn back to the good side is rampant in fiction.



The problem isn't Naruto forgiving Obito. He actually did nothing of the sort. The problem is that Naruto called Obito the coolest (or in MS case, the most awesome).


----------



## hawkeye91 (Jul 30, 2014)

soo Kishi writes the dialogues or he is just drawing?


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

listen obito was trash, even if naruto saved him again, he would have been executed on a later date. he died on his own terms and naruto chose to remember him for he used to be not what he became.


----------



## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

If Kushina was alive she would have rekt.


----------



## Undead (Jul 30, 2014)

Kyu said:


> The fuck is wrong with Kishi?


My reaction when reading Naruto's line:


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 30, 2014)

The people actually rationalizing this thinking have serious issues.  I guarantee they wouldn't consider a guy who killed their parents, killed their friends, destroyed their home and tried to enslave the entire world the "coolest guy they know".


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

Kyu said:


> The fuck is wrong with Kishi?



I dunno man, I'm so tired of his shit.


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Not even Goku forgave Frieza.


you mean the same goku that initial spared frieza's life?


----------



## Nic (Jul 30, 2014)

ch1p said:


> The problem isn't Naruto forgiving Obito. He actually did nothing of the sort. The problem is that Naruto called Obito the coolest (or in MS case, the most awesome).



again to me that's just your typical shounen main character saying some stupid shit.  Nothing new here nothing unexpected and nothing to get overly upset about.


----------



## Kyu (Jul 30, 2014)

Paragon said:


> My reaction when reading Naruto's line:





Hussain said:


> I dunno man, I'm so tired of his shit.


No kidding, the dialogue there was asinine.


This coming from a proud fan of Naruto Uzumaki.


----------



## Undead (Jul 30, 2014)

Narutossss said:


> you mean the same goku that initial spared frieza's life?


Sparing =/= Forgiving.


----------



## Nic (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Not even Goku forgave Frieza.



Frieza turned back to the good side?


----------



## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

>Naruto Uzumaki
>Not the other way around

Disgusting.


----------



## Izaya (Jul 30, 2014)

Oh yes Naruto he was so cool considering
-He almost killed you as a newborn
-Responsible for your parents deaths
-Created Akatsuki
-Killed Neji via Ten Tails
-Pretty much fucked up your life making you a outcast
-Tried to kill you and capture you more than once 
-Tried to take over the world

So Naruto, what the fuck is wrong with you?


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 30, 2014)

Narutossss said:


> you mean the same goku that initial spared frieza's life?



Which he did as a means of torture, not forgiveness. He wanted Frieza to live out the rest of his days knowing he was beaten by the one thing he most feared, a saiyan. And he most certainly didn't refer to him as "the coolest guy he knows".


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

Nic said:


> again to me that's just your typical shounen main character saying some stupid shit.  Nothing new here nothing unexpected and nothing to get overly upset about.


exactly, it's not like naruto hasn't done this before. NF sometimes


----------



## Undead (Jul 30, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Which he did as a means of torture, not forgiveness. He wanted Frieza to live out the rest of his days knowing he was beaten by the one thing he most feared, a saiyan. And he most certainly didn't refer to him as "the coolest guy he knows".


Exactly        .


----------



## Kyu (Jul 30, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> Disgusting.



My sentiments every time you post.


----------



## Undead (Jul 30, 2014)

Kyu.


----------



## ShadowFox88 (Jul 30, 2014)

Thinking about it hard, this makes Nagato's turn look like GOD tier storyteling.


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> *Which he did as a means of torture*, not forgiveness. He wanted Frieza to live out the rest of his days knowing he was beaten by the one thing he most feared, a saiyan. And he most certainly didn't refer to him as "the coolest guy he knows".


 no way did goku save frieza to torture him, goku isn't that deep and when did naruto say obito was the coolest guy he *knew* also once again he was clearly talking about konoha obito.


----------



## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

Kyu said:


> My sentiments every time you post.


----------



## Undead (Jul 30, 2014)

Narutossss said:


> no way did goku save frieza to torture him, goku isn't that deep


You can keep denying it, but that was the whole point of Goku sparing him. Go back and rewatch it. Goku didn't just spare him just for the lulz.


----------



## Nic (Jul 30, 2014)

ShadowFox88 said:


> Thinking about it hard, this makes Nagato's turn look like GOD tier storyteling.



really because i see no difference between the two.  They were both converted stupidly and nonsensically.  And that's something i'm saying about my two favorite characters in the series.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

I lol'd so hard. :rofl
that was really harsh of him though.


----------



## Nic (Jul 30, 2014)

The freeza to Obito comparison makes no sense whatsoever. 

One was evil from the beginning and died evil. 

The other was good turned evil and came back good. 

Vegeta is a much closer comparison to Obito than freaken Freeza.  Heck Vegeta killed kids indiscriminately on Namek without any intention of reviving them.  That's not even counting the other evil shit he did under Freeza.


----------



## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I lol'd so hard. :rofl
> that was really harsh of him though.



Naw, me and Kyu are buddies.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 30, 2014)

Narutossss said:


> no way did goku save frieza to torture him, goku isn't that deep and when did naruto say obito was the coolest guy he *knew* also once again he was clearly talking about konoha obito.



So instead of presenting a cohesive rebuttal you simply spout nonsense. How about you actually go back and read the manga. It would do you some good. Goku spared him because he wanted Frieza to live knowing he was beaten by the thing he constantly feared, a saiyan. It was never because of forgiveness. 

And it doesn't matter what Obito he was talking about. He's still the same guy who killed his parents, his friends and tried to enslave the entire world. You trying to rationalize it only makes you look all the more pathetic. Let's see you call someone the coolest guy after they've killed your parents, your friends, etc. I guarantee you wouldn't, which only makes you more of a hypocrite now that you're sitting here trying to rationalize this. 

And that neg is amusing. Are you mad because I'm not actually rationalizing the idiotic nonsense Naruto spouted in this chapter like you're trying to do?


----------



## Yagami1211 (Jul 30, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> Naruto is a fucking fictional Jesus, you expect many people in real life to have that level of tolerance for filth?



Actually I wish I would have that level of tolerance too.


----------



## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

Yagami1211 said:


> Actually I wish I would have that level of tolerance too.



I wouldn't like to, it would make me hesitate.


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

Paragon said:


> You can keep denying it, but that was the whole point of Goku sparing him. Go back and rewatch it. Goku didn't just spare him just for the lulz.


\
i'm not denying anything though.





Nothing in these pages suggest goku spared freiza to torture him, he didn't forgive him though but then again frieza was a scum bag to the end, obito was just madara's pawn who was lured onto that path by madara. Even luke skywalker forgave darth vadar in the end and believed there was still good in him.


----------



## DeK3iDE (Jul 30, 2014)

wasn't the best time for Naruto to risk all of the cool points he racked up when he said that.


----------



## lain2501 (Jul 30, 2014)

Nic said:


> The freeza to Obito comparison makes no sense whatsoever.
> 
> One was evil from the beginning and died evil.
> 
> ...



Yea and you are being nice on vegeta, he used to wipe out life from planets. This is interstellar level of genocide.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Nic said:


> The freeza to Obito comparison makes no sense whatsoever.
> 
> One was evil from the beginning and died evil.
> 
> ...



No, because Obito is to Naruto and Sasuke what Frieza was to Goku and Vegeta. Frieza was at the center of the conflict that brought about their circumstances, just as Obito was in Naruto. The fact that he didn't start out evil doesn't change that he was and it was he being that nature which set into motion the events that transpired in much of the story.


----------



## The Fool (Jul 30, 2014)

Sigh... why do you act surprised... Kishi can't write any main character out of the script without redemption unless they are fodder. Obito's story was way better than Itachi's.  Itachi was a walking retcon of various conflicting, nonsensical motives. At least Obito actually believed in the shit he was doing, but Itachi did the same shit and we know he was double agent, yet Kishi spent many worthless chapters redeeming that retard.


Just face facts, in a few chapters Kishi wil revive Madara and do the same thing, i.e Madara will be fighting hand in hand with Hashirama to save the world. This stuff is not hard to predict at this point.. It's the way he operates.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto is retarded. Confirmed now.


----------



## Undead (Jul 30, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto is retarded. Confirmed now.


Uh, a little late pal. It was confirmed 686 chapters ago.


----------



## Kuromaku (Jul 30, 2014)

This manga has always had some really odd morals. At least in say, _Harry Potter_, Harry doesn't 
*Spoiler*: __ 



like Snape even after he learns the truth, but he does grow to respect him enough to call him the bravest person he ever knew.




Here, it just comes off as really awkward. Oh, he was like me once, and that guy was cool. The story seems to agree with him despite Obito having been the main villain for a long time and having had a role in several tragedies.

In the case of Darth Vader, Luke's faith is rewarded when Vader realizes that he can't stand by and let his son die. He didn't become a sunshine and rainbows good guy so much as he rediscovered the part of Anakin Skywalker that was willing to protect those he loved at the cost of his own life. We don't see Leia act all, oh Vader was a cool guy all along. It's that even though he lived a life of evil when he turned, he at least proved that for all the crap he pulled, he was still capable of redemption.

Kishimoto tries to do the same thing here, and even has Obito act humbled by his epiphanies, but Naruto's comment goes too far. Had he simply defended Obito, it'd be okay, but to go as far as he did with that comment? Too much man. Too much.


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

so much salt


----------



## Rai (Jul 30, 2014)

Text from RAW:

睨むナルト「オビトを笑うなっ！！火影になろうとしたオビトは?オレには?かっこよくしか見えねェーよ！！」

Who can translate it?


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

ℜai said:


> Text from RAW:
> 
> 睨むナルト「オビトを笑うなっ！！火影になろうとしたオビトは?オレには?かっこよくしか見えねェーよ！！」
> 
> Who can translate it?



Thanks, I needed that...


----------



## The Fool (Jul 30, 2014)

The problem is not the manga, it's Kishi's audience, i.e. you guys.  Kishi has always said Naruto is first and foremost a manga for children.  Most of you have been on here for years. It's a story for children. He was never going to ruthlessly kill off Obito.


----------



## Undead (Jul 30, 2014)

The Fool said:


> The problem is not the manga, it's Kishi's audience, i.e. you guys.  Kishi has always said Naruto is first and foremost a manga for children.  Most of you have been on here for years. It's a story for children.


That doesn't excuse shit writing.


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

Kuromaku said:


> This manga has always had some really odd morals. At least in say, _Harry Potter_, Harry doesn't
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



that sounds exactly like obito though. i don't see much wrong with what naruto said, he was showing respect to a person who once had the same aspirations as himself.


----------



## hawkeye91 (Jul 30, 2014)

Kuromaku said:


> This manga has always had some really odd morals. At least in say, _Harry Potter_, Harry doesn't
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



lol Harry father was a scumbag so he deserved to die.


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

also para ignoring my reply to his post, will take that as a concession.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

The Fool said:


> The problem is not the manga, it's Kishi's audience, i.e. you guys.  Kishi has always said Naruto is first and foremost a manga for children.  Most of you have been on here for years. It's a story for children. He was never going to ruthlessly kill off Obito.



teaching the kids that the mass murders are the coolest people is not the right thing to teach.


----------



## Undead (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> teaching the kids that the mass murders are the coolest people is not the right thing to teach.


What a great Hokage he will be.


----------



## The Fool (Jul 30, 2014)

Paragon said:


> That doesn't excuse shit writing.



I'm just going out on a limb, but I don't think you would have said it was shit writing when you joined almost 7 years ago. Likewise, I don't think kids who are between 9 and 15 will consider it shit writing.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> teaching the kids that the mass murders are the coolest people is not the right thing to teach.



Seriously. That had to have been the most pathetic excuse I've seen yet.

I mean, all the more reason NOT to write in something like that, right?


----------



## Kuromaku (Jul 30, 2014)

Narutossss said:


> that sounds exactly like obito though. i don't see much wrong with what naruto said, he was showing respect to a person who once had the same aspirations as himself.



Yes and no. Yes in that Obito was rediscovering the person he once was. No in that Naruto's comment was out of line. Luke redeems his father, but he doesn't go around talking about how Vader was a pretty cool guy. He died as Anakin Skywalker, but that doesn't take away from the crap he pulled. Anakin does die back on the good side of the force, and gets to pal around with Yoda and Obi Wan despite not learning anything from Qui Gon (???), but Luke never says anything about Anakin after his redemption. I also presume Leia would still be smarting after the torture sessions and Alderaan.

TLDR: Vader and Tobi died as Anakin/Obito, but where no one praises the former (as it should be), the latter gets praised by Naruto when he, while not irredeemable, was still unworthy of it.


----------



## Rios (Jul 30, 2014)

Everybody from Konohamaru to Madara wanted to be Hokage at some point. Obito is not special in any way, its just Kishimoto's sloppy redemption theme in action.


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

Kuromaku said:


> Yes and no. Yes in that Obito was rediscovering the person he once was. *No in that Naruto's comment was out of line*. Luke redeems his father, but he doesn't go around talking about how Vader was a pretty cool guy. He died as Anakin Skywalker, but that doesn't take away from the crap he pulled. Anakin does die back on the good side of the force, and gets to pal around with Yoda and Obi Wan despite not learning anything from Qui Gon (???), but Luke never says anything about Anakin after his redemption. I also presume Leia would still be smarting after the torture sessions and Alderaan.
> 
> TLDR: Vader and Tobi died as Anakin/Obito, but where no one praises the former (as it should be), the latter gets praised by Naruto when he, while not irredeemable, was still unworthy of it.


Depending on what situation naruto said it in maybe, but in this one no it's not out of line. Naruto was referring to konoha obito and was directing what he said at black zetsu, if he was saying this to the victims of the 4th world war then yes it would be out of line even if he was talking about kid obito.


----------



## ziemiak11 (Jul 30, 2014)

After the war Naruto should gather Minato, Iruka, Shikamaru, Ino, Hinata and families of all shinobi that have died in this war and say:
Father I know that it sucks that you're dead, Iruka sensei I know how hard it was for you to live without your parents, Shikamaru Ino, I know how hard it'll be for you, Hinata I've seen you crying over Neji, all of you I know you hate Obito because your close ones died because of the war he has started.
But you know what in the end he understand that he was wrong and saved my life, we couldn't have won this war without his help. So please forgive him  he was awesome


----------



## Skull007 (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> teaching the kids that the mass murders are the coolest people is not the right thing to teach.



But tobirama does it and he's the most awesome guy anyway, right?

Almost everyone's a murderer in the naruto universe, *ALMOST.EVERYONE*


----------



## Emo_Princess (Jul 30, 2014)

Obito is still cooler than naruto so.


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

Skull007 said:


> But tobirama does it and he's the most awesome guy anyway, right?
> 
> Almost everyone's a murderer in the naruto universe, *ALMOST.EVERYONE*



pretty much this.


----------



## ziemiak11 (Jul 30, 2014)

Skull007 said:


> But tobirama does it and he's the most awesome guy anyway, right?
> 
> Almost everyone's a murderer in the naruto universe, *ALMOST.EVERYONE*



But main character still haven't killed somebody


----------



## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

ziemiak11 said:


> But main character still haven't killed somebody


actually he has.


----------



## Addy (Jul 30, 2014)

this thread gave me and idea for an edit


----------



## ziemiak11 (Jul 30, 2014)

Narutossss said:


> actually he has.



In the manga? Who?


----------



## Sasuke (Jul 30, 2014)

I couldn't believe what I was reading.

lelKishimoto 

terrible

absolutely terrible


----------



## Ch1pp (Jul 30, 2014)

Ofcourse Obito was the coolest seeing as kishi thinks we're all stupid, he can feed us any garbage.


----------



## Hayn (Jul 30, 2014)

Theres a big difference between Obito who wanted to be hokage (Who Naruto is talking about) and the Tobi that was the mass murderer.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

Hayn said:


> Theres a big difference between Obito who wanted to be hokage (Who Naruto is talking about) and the Tobi that was the mass murderer.



Obito and Tobi are the same.


----------



## Skull007 (Jul 30, 2014)

Nope

He had a mask

Naruto took that mask off when they were pulling the bijuu out of him

Anyway if you still don't want to believe what, read my previous post


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

Skull007 said:


> Nope
> 
> He had a mask
> 
> ...



I read your previous post, and there is a different between someone who starts a war 
and killing everyone so the others may feel "Despair" 

and between the other shinobi who were fighting in wars that they did not start, and fighting
to protect their own villages...etc

and taking the mask off, does not make obito a separate guy who did not do anything, he is still
the same guy. 

saying about this guy, specifically, cool/coolest/awesome and from Naruto himself no less
is beyond retarded. Obito is basically the sours of EVERYTHING negative in Naruto's life.


----------



## ziemiak11 (Jul 30, 2014)

Skull007 said:


> Nope
> 
> He had a mask
> 
> ...



How convenient, but people with mental problems are even more dangerous.


----------



## Rokudaime (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I read your previous post, and there is a different between someone who starts a war
> and killing everyone so the others may feel "Despair"
> 
> and between the other shinobi who were fighting in wars that they did not start, and fighting
> ...



Is it really THAT hard for you to accept that Naruto is a very forgiving person?


----------



## Skull007 (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I read your previous post, and there is a different between someone who starts a war
> and killing everyone so the others may feel "Despair"
> 
> and between the other shinobi who were fighting in wars that they did not start, and fighting
> ...



Killing is killing

But that aside, you know why he started a war? because he wanted peace, FOR EVERYONE, not just your favourite village and screw everyone else

He thought violence was the answer (the same as nagato), and this was the result

All of them (nagato, obito, partly gaara) are Naruto, with a different background, different influences, but in the end, the same spirit; that's why naruto forgives them

And I believe the "was the coolest guy" line was indirectly a slight joke, like, self-proclaiming his awesomeness (seeing how similar they were)

Anyway I didn't want to derail my point. When naruto took obito's mask off, he took all the bad influences (madara) and saw himself there


----------



## Gabe (Jul 30, 2014)

Kishi is weird I do not like this statement. It may have been a while since obito turned to the good side. But wasn't it not that long ago since he murdered many shinobie including neji. And not to mention that fact he was responsible for narutos parents deaths. Kishi seemed to forget. As a naruto fan I do not get how kishi makes him forgive people this easy. I know he saved his life but he killed his mom. Something I do not think anyone could forgive. I guess kishi is into anything can be forgiven.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

Rokudaime said:


> Is it really THAT hard for you to accept that Naruto is a very forgiving person?



No, it's hard however to accept that he thinks a mass murderer is the coolest guy. 



Skull007 said:


> Killing is killing
> 
> But that aside, you know why he started a war? because he wanted peace, FOR EVERYONE, not just your favourite village and screw everyone else
> 
> ...



- No, he wanted to be with Rin, and that's why he started the whole thing. 
and it's only for himself and screw everyone else, that's why he was killing them left and right...

- Again, I'm not talking about forgiving them (which is BS in itself) but Naruto thinking killing people makes you the coolest. Harming people makes you awesome!  

- I don't think he means it as a joke as he seemed very serious.


----------



## Skull007 (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Harming people makes you awesome!



Welcome to the ninja world, where every child wants to be a ninja EXACTLY because of that

If you don't like it... well you should've dropped the manga 686 chapters ago

---

It's amazing how believing someone can forgive a person who TRULY seeks redemption is "BS"


----------



## Axis (Jul 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - No, he wanted to be with Rin, and that's he started the whole thing.
> and it's only for himself and screw everyone else, that's why he was killing them left and right...



He also wanted to become Hokage and stop the war though. Even Rin had told him that she hoped he would become Hokage and stop wars.

Rin wasn't simply a girl that Obito used to like. She represented his highest ideals, something very pure in their tainted world that was worth protecting. That's why when he saw Rin murdered by none other than Kakashi, another person Obito had put his faith in, was basically having his highest ideals crushed and tainted by the shitty world they live in, thus he chose to reject this world and find refuge in the dream world.


----------



## Kuromaku (Jul 30, 2014)

Narutossss said:


> Depending on what situation naruto said it in maybe, but in this one no it's not out of line. Naruto was referring to konoha obito and was directing what he said at black zetsu, if he was saying this to the victims of the 4th world war then yes it would be out of line even if he was talking about kid obito.



It still doesn't work. Even if he was talking about Obito rather than Tobi, it was still an Obito who had screwed up massively with his life. With the _Harry Potter_ example I posted earlier, Harry acknowledges that while the person he is praising was a highly flawed person, said individual was also "the bravest man" he'd ever known. In the case of Obito, Naruto is praising a person without acknowledging that he actually was kind of a fuck up. If he'd countered BZ by acknowledging Obito's flaws, but going on to say that in the end, he was someone worth redeeming, then that would sit better. However, here, he's saying that Obito was a pretty cool guy without acknowledging that said cool guy was a highly flawed human being who happened to do what was right in the end.

Here, the counter to BZ just comes off as a kid going "la la la, not listening to what you're saying" rather than my suggestion, which involves acknowledging the claims, then countering them where it matters.


----------



## mayumi (Jul 30, 2014)

I particularly didn't care for the comment. Obito is mass murderer and so was Itachi. But hey Itachi always gets off scott free and well Sasuke lubs him.
Kishi seems to like forgiving murderers Gaara, Itachi, Nagato, Obito and even Sasuke.


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## arokh (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto was always like this. He is the #1 hippie ninja that will let anyone buttfuck him and call them friend after. Just like with Sasuke, still his best friend after numerous murder attempts at him and his friends.

Nothing is new guys, you should have stopped reading after the first chapter instead of looking like ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) spreading hate now.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

mayumi said:


> I particularly didn't care for the comment. Obito is mass murderer and so was Itachi. But hey Itachi always gets off scott free and well Sasuke lubs him.
> Kishi seems to like forgiving murderers Gaara, Itachi, Nagato, Obito and even Sasuke.



Even itachi's moments are lame, especially when Kishi made Hashirama states that itachi is better than him.


----------



## theworks (Jul 30, 2014)

Obito…

…I remember all the times… he put a paper bomb on me in the first minute of my life, he caused the Kyuubi attack, he killed my parents, which made me an outcast hated by everyone throughout my childhood, he took my best friend to the dark side, he helped kill my best friend’s entire family, he killed my fellow jinchuriki, he killed my Suna friend, he helped the guy who destroyed my village, he caused a war that killed forty thousand people in a day, he killed shikamaru and ino’s dad, he personally broke torune and fu’s necks, he killed neji, he almost killed the entire alliance multiple times and he wanted to control the entire world in a genjutsu…

… good times, good times…

He was the coolest guy

~ Naruto probably


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## Lightzz (Jul 30, 2014)

Kishi really destroyed the potential dialogue that could have happened between Obito/Sasuke/Naruto as Obito was dying. Obito should have apologized to Sasuke for what happened to the clan and Naruto for his parents, etc. Kishi focusing on that Hokage BS really ruined this chapter.


----------



## Haruka Katana (Jul 30, 2014)

I know Naruto is a forgiving person and shit but he didn't have to say he's the coolest.... or awesome...Yeah um no Naruto, just no


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 30, 2014)

Maybe a thousand years from now, when humanity or some part of it has regressed into utter decadence or a state of severe social decline, someone will discover this manga and use it to establish some type of new religion. I mean, see how this thing is written. It's like a form of escape for those who long for a sense of salvation or forgiveness, however undeserved, which they vicariously experience through the likes of Obito. Similar stories (that I know of) usually aren't as focused on or blunt about the ideals of redemption and forgiveness, but this manga is just on a different level. 

I'm getting the sneaky feeling that those people are Kishimoto's true target audience, or his rather twisted presentation of supposedly common themes is what he really wants to write about, although he publicly makes it appear as though he's appealing to normal standards of morality (which is profitable).

In any case, considering that Sasuke is also probably going to get a similar treatment in the end, and that Sakura and some other people are likely going to fall for him again as if he hadn't been such a cold-blooded criminal, I'm afraid Kishimoto's work has become a bad case of witless barrel scraping.


----------



## Justice (Jul 30, 2014)

Kishi ffs STOP MAKING NARUTO SO DAMN FORGIVING AND DOING CRINGE WORTHY THINGS!!!!

This shit is fucking stupid and just ruins Naruto's character completely in my eyes. 

See, this is why I really wished that Naruto as a series was just cynical and didn't have any idealism. This shit is so unrealistic it's not even funny.


----------



## Scila9 (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto not holding grudges is fine. Good, really. It's good that he can let go of the past since Obito really tried his best to make up for it in the end. Almost makes sense. Would even be a little understandable for me if it weren't for the whole war thing and Neji and everything happening _that same day_. You'd think it'd be rather fresh in everyone's minds.

But I digress. It's the crying for him and calling him awesome like he somehow became one of his favorite people over the course of a day that makes me facepalm. The only way I can make any sense at all of _that_ is Naruto's Magic Ninshuu Empathy thing he's got going on.

But still... really Naruto? He's one of the coolest guys despite everything he's done just cuz he shared your dream of becoming Hokage? I know you feel for the guy but fuck...

You know what I think would make Obito cool? Is if he actually held onto that dream instead of giving up on it and the whole world and becoming a mass murderer who fucked all of their lives up.

IMO Obito was okay in the end. But not awesome. He missed out on the awesome train.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

arokh said:


> Naruto was always like this. He is the #1 hippie ninja that will let anyone buttfuck him and call them friend after. Just like with Sasuke, still his best friend after numerous murder attempts at him and his friends.
> 
> Nothing is new guys, you should have stopped reading after the first chapter instead of looking like ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) spreading hate now.



No one is surprised if you didn't notice, this was long expected. However it doesn't make it any less distasteful. 

You know that is the most desperate retort of someone that doesn't have an argument. What is nearly as pathetic and also twisted, is that people are trying to twist this all into a positive. A complimentary trait can easily become a detrimental one when it's taken too far. 

There are limits to everything, including forgiveness and redemption, especially to the degree expressed in Naruto as of late; and in breaking them a writer can turn off a lot of people from the intended messages, like Kishi has with this particular instance and the matter of forgiveness and redemption in general. An author has to understand those thresholds regarding the concepts and how he wants to express them in his story or else they will fail every time.


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## Rosi (Jul 30, 2014)

Implying Obito is not the coolest guy.

Naruto said what had to be said 

And his fanboying was cute 





sasusakucannon said:


> His body is the coolest.


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## Nathan Copeland (Jul 30, 2014)

i liked obitos death. but part 1 naruto would of never said that shit to Zabuza or Orochimaru 



same guy that turned you into a grenade


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## Toqtimur (Jul 30, 2014)

I hope the is a mis-translation, or at least referring to Obito's original ideals and personality. I mean I liked Obito as Tobi/Madara, but really your going to call the man responsible for the deaths of your family,friends, and at least on two occasions your village, threatened to kill you when your where born, and tried to kill you later on cool. There's no way that can make any sense unless he is very selective about what parts of Obito were talking about.


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## Taijukage (Jul 30, 2014)

> You can keep denying it, but that was the whole point of Goku sparing him. Go back and rewatch it. Goku didn't just spare him just for the lulz.


lol wut? nonsense. 
your using english dub dialogue and yet you accuse others of being in denial? anime is non canon



> You know what I think would make Obito cool? Is if he actually held onto that dream instead of giving up on it and the whole world and becoming a mass murderer who fucked all of their lives up.


are you saying he WOULDNT be a murderer if he remained in konoha's employ as a soldier? never get ordered on a mission which results in lives getting fucked up?

this is a problem for me. people despise how obito betrayed konoha, which wasn't the paragon of innocence, anyway and killed/manipulated people. ok but who is to say he wouldnt have killed half as many as a konoha assassin? 
he would lie and kill in the service of liars and killers. 
the only difference is that the people in konoha like to try and justify it with "its for the sake of the village" will of fire bullshit.


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## Pocalypse (Jul 30, 2014)

This was cringeworthy, yes. "The coolest guy" is such a typical line, it feels weird as shit being used in this situation. I think the death was alright but Naruto should have just kept quiet and proceeded to rip of the arm, too much forgiveness in this chapter, Obito has done the most shit to him and made his life a living hell, guess Naruto just forgets that


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Taijukage said:


> lol wut? nonsense.
> your using english dub dialogue and yet you accuse others of being in denial? anime is non canon



The dialogue didn't really change anything in that. Especially in Kai, which was far more accurate to the original dialogue.


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## B.o.t.i (Jul 30, 2014)

yeah this line will get edited in volume release shit is just wrong.


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

B.o.t.i said:


> yeah this line will get edited in volume release shit is just wrong.



That what I was hoping for, even though I really doubt it. 
It's by far the most disgusting line ever.


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## KyuubiFan (Jul 30, 2014)

So far this is Idioto's lowest. Evel lower than fainting over Sasuke.

I don't think he comprehended what he just did. He called a mass murderer the coolest/most awesome guy. For some reason I don't think the 40000 dead shinobi would agree with him. Or his parents, Jiraiya, Neji, Konan. Those who are still on the battlefield. But hey, since when does Idioto head the words of others? He just go after his retarded ideals and gets away with it without any consequence whatsoever.

By his reasoning Madara should be hailed as the greatest hero of all time since he wanted the best for them and even achieved it.

Seriously... Sasuke or anyone else should just bitchslap some realism into him. Like Raikage did.


----------



## Jagger (Jul 30, 2014)

If Obito is the coolest guy, then, Madara must be the greatest guy ever born.


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## Ruse (Jul 30, 2014)

Glad I didn't read the chapter this week


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto be stuntin on the haters.


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## NoAvail2010! (Jul 30, 2014)

Of course Naruto would say something ridic like that do people seriously not know what manga they are reading


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## Bloo (Jul 30, 2014)

I was annoyed with that, very much. Kishimoto could have made a point that people belittling Obito as a person was one reason why he lived the way he did, but no. Kishimoto had to, in one panel, forgive Obito because he wanted to be Hokage at one point in time, before he tried to destroy the village and kill the Hokage's son for shits and giggles.

This also means that Orochimaru, Madara, and the like are entirely excusable for their crimes because they wanted to be Hokage at some point in time.


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## SharkBomb 4 (Jul 30, 2014)

Jagger said:


> If Obito is the coolest guy, then, Madara must be the greatest guy ever born.



Naruto saw him blow up like a big dumb balloon. The "Madara is cool" boat sailed for anyone that saw that, which means Sasuke won't have a lot of nice things to say about him when Madara's exit comes.


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## RedChidori (Jul 30, 2014)

*Damn... R.I.P. Uchiha Obito*

To be honest I felt bad for Obito when he was rotting away. Until I realized all the heinous shit that he's done over the years . But then again, it wasn't his fault entirely; Madara made him who he is now. He orchestrated Rin's death, infected his mind and fooled him into thinking that everything in the world is all evil and that peace is impossible. Which led to the death of the original Akatsuki, the invasion of Konoha, the death of Kushina and Minato, Naruto's life in jeopardy and later became a living hell with Kurama inside him, and eventually, this very war. In which Obito caused the deaths of hundreds among thousands of people. Though the fact that he redeemed himself in the end really made me like him again. And the fact that he died with both his original eyes, made him "whole" so to speak,... To me at least. I will say that it saddens me to see Kakashi, the former Copy Ninja, without a Sharingan though . He had Obito's eye for so long and I got used to seeing him with it. But now he'll never be the same badass Kakashi we all know and love . However, I was hoping to see what Obito could accomplish if he lived longer, maybe he coulda activated his very own Susano'o . But unfortunately, he didn't live to see the day . R.I.P. Uchiha Obito, I hope you and Rin have a successful afterlife together !

P.S. Naruto is fucked in the head lol. Keep in mind that this is the man who made your life a living hell and he tried to *kill you.* I guess the "I wanna be Hokage" card is something that would make Naruto sympathize with a merciless mass-murderer . Well technically, this wasn't Obito's original intentions but shit got hella fucked up in his life and he was brainwashed and blah blah blah. Whatever. The point is, Naruto really needs to reassess on what his definition of cool is . If anything, Obito would fall under the "Meh... He's okay" category, because of his redemption.


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## takL (Jul 30, 2014)

ℜai said:


> Text from RAW:
> 
> 睨むナルト「オビトを笑うなっ！！火影になろうとしたオビトは…オレには…かっこよくしか見えねェーよ！！」
> 
> Who can translate it?



naruto: don't laugh at Obito!!
The Obito that aimed to be Hokage was...in my eyes...
Nothing less than badass!!
(=Obito aimed to be Hokage...which is, if you ask me ...
nothing but badass!!)

basically naruto thinks lil obito was damn cool.


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## Itachі (Jul 30, 2014)

thank you based takl

thank you


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## Kai (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto wasn't referring to the murderous Obito, who gave no fucks about his own identity but to the Obito who aspired to be what he also wanted to be.


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## Rios (Jul 30, 2014)

Kai said:


> Naruto wasn't referring to the murderous Obito, who gave no fucks about his own identity but to the Obito who aspired to be what he also wanted to be.



Rin's boytoy


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Kai said:


> Naruto wasn't referring to the murderous Obito, who gave no fucks about his own identity but to the Obito who aspired to be what he also wanted to be.



Separate actions do not make separate individuals. They were both Obito, just different sides to him. His evils are just as much he, as any good he's done. However he's spent the most of his life evil, and his actions during that time have a severity of which no good deed can erase.


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## Rios (Jul 30, 2014)

"A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward."

-Stannis Baratheon

Of course we are talking about something aimed at grown ups, something Naruto is clearly not


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## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

takL said:


> naruto: don't laugh at Obito!!
> The Obito that aimed to be Hokage was...in my eyes...
> Nothing less than badass!!
> (=Obito aimed to be Hokage...which is, if you ask me ...
> ...



i'm 24'd right now takl but i'll be back to rep.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Rios said:


> "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward."
> 
> -Stannis Baratheon
> 
> Of course we are talking about something aimed at grown ups, something Naruto is clearly not



Even kids can get that though. This is just shitty writing on Kishi's part, regardless of the genre.


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## gabzilla (Jul 30, 2014)

Not surprised. If Naruto can identify with a villain, he will _always_ gets a chance at redemption. 

If only Kakuzu had known. 

It still sucks, though. The Obito I liked from the Gaiden is forever tainted thanks to this shitty ass character. I'm also laughing at Rin's "you always did your best". Were you really watching, girl?


----------



## Sete (Jul 30, 2014)

It goes with the theme of the manga.
We saw it with Zabuza, Nagato and now Obito. 
And yet you people are surprised each time it happens.


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## Jagger (Jul 30, 2014)

Kai said:


> Naruto wasn't referring to the murderous Obito, who gave no fucks about his own identity but to the Obito who aspired to be what he also wanted to be.


They're still the same individual.

Rios already took the words out of my mouth when he posted that quote.


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## KyuubiFan (Jul 30, 2014)

Sete said:


> It goes with the theme of the manga.
> We saw it with Zabuza, Nagato and now Obito.
> And yet you people are surprised each time it happens.




It can be executed in an acceptable way or as a laughable piece of crap that nobody can take seriously. We just saw the latter.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Sete said:


> It goes with the theme of the manga.
> We saw it with Zabuza, Nagato and now Obito.
> And yet you people are surprised each time it happens.



Again. No one is surprised. That doesn't make the event any less distasteful.

Furthermore, what is it with some of you people and this failure to realize that there is *not* an unlimited boundary regarding expression of these themes in the story or that of any other?


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## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

i put the japanese dialogue into bing translator, the program has a great voice reader, you can here the sentence in japanese fairly clearly. i'm no expect but it does sound like naruto is talking in the past tense. he says  hokage ni narou to shita obito wa(火影になろうとしたオビトは) "the obito that tried to become hokage" he is definitely talking about kid obito here


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## FearTear (Jul 30, 2014)

If Naruto considers those who want to become hokage the coolest, why does he still treat Kiba like crap?


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## spiritmight (Jul 30, 2014)

takL said:


> naruto: don't laugh at Obito!!
> The Obito that aimed to be Hokage was...in my eyes...
> Nothing less than badass!!
> (=Obito aimed to be Hokage...which is, if you ask me ...
> ...




We get the literal translation of what Naruto said and yet people still want to buttfuck their keyboards like a broken record about how Obito was a mass murderer and killed Naruto's parents and yadda yadda

Yeah, we get it. Obito gets it, Naruto gets it, hell even Black Zetsu gets it. Obito saved Naruto's life twice within the span of an hour. These are fucking shinobi who deal in death and destruction but still tend to work together when the situation calls for it, and this has been the deal for every character introduced thus far.


Naruto hasn't forgotten what Obito's done, he's choosing to acknowledge the "old" Obito and the actions of the "redeemed" Obito.


But cry more. I'll take a shot every time I see the word "murder" pop up in this thread.


All is as it should be


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## Tony Lou (Jul 30, 2014)

takL said:


> naruto: don't laugh at Obito!!
> The Obito that aimed to be Hokage was...in my eyes...
> Nothing less than badass!!
> (=Obito aimed to be Hokage...which is, if you ask me ...
> ...



Meh.

It's basically the same meaning but put in a way that sounds less silly.



spiritmight said:


> Naruto hasn't forgotten what Obito's done




Show me a single instance where Naruto addresses it. 

At least in Nagato's case there was initial anger.

But with Obito it went like "We are instantly BFFs "


----------



## Sarry (Jul 30, 2014)

Sete said:


> It goes with the theme of the manga.
> We saw it with Zabuza, Nagato and now Obito.
> And yet you people are surprised each time it happens.



Not surprised. It was bound to happen but that doesn't lessen the horribleness of it. 

Like eating a very sour and disgusting food, you know it is coming, you can sense/smell it but can't avoid it.


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## Za Fuuru (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto refers to Kid Obito. Not adult Obito.

He means that Obito was cool when he was a child. That's true, go read Kakashi Gaiden and you'll see a cool character which saved Kakashi and gave him the sharingan


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## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

Jagger said:


> *They're still the same individual.*
> 
> Rios already took the words out of my mouth when he posted that quote.



Doesn't matter naruto said _kid obito_ was cool specifically, what he said doesn't equate to obito in his entirety. people do this all time in real life everyday. For example, "that chick used to be slim and hot in high school, now she's just fat and ugly" so because the quote is talking about the same individual what he thinks about her then applies to the her present state? hell no. 

Naruto said nothing wrong. what he said about kid obito does not apply to present obito. there's no way anyone can say naruto said the obito that did all those atrocities was "cool"


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## Za Fuuru (Jul 30, 2014)

Luiz said:


> Meh.
> 
> It's basically the same meaning but put in a way that sounds less silly



The same meaning? It's completely different.

Don't forget we are reading a translation which 90% of times sucks ass because is not professional at all. It's amateur. They translate the chapter in 5 minutes becasue they want to get more clicks and visits. It's nothing but a race against other sites, pretty pathetic


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## spiritmight (Jul 30, 2014)

skinny nerd from 20 years ago becomes a heavyweight boxing champion

person refers to and acknowledges that he used to beat up and pick on skinny nerd from 20 years ago


NO HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE  250LB BOXING CHAMPION; THEY'RE ONE AND THE SAME, PEOPLE DONT GO THROUGH CHANGES IN LIFE


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## takL (Jul 30, 2014)

Luiz said:


> It's basically the same meaning but put in a way that sounds less silly.



does it sound sillier than bz of all people laughing at obito to you?


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## Tony Lou (Jul 30, 2014)

Of course not.

Good to see that slime being humbled in this chapter.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> skinny nerd from 20 years ago becomes a heavyweight boxing champion
> 
> person refers to and acknowledges that he used to beat up and pick on skinny nerd from 20 years ago
> 
> ...



Wow. What a stupid comparison.


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## gabzilla (Jul 30, 2014)

It doesn't matter if Naruto was talking about younger Obito (it would make sense if _Kakashi_ said that, since - you know - he actually _knew_ him). Naruto got pissed at Black Zetsu for making fun of him. Why the fuck would he get pissed because of that? This is the guy that hours ago killed one of your friends and then mocked you for not being able to save him, is not like what Zetsu said was false.


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## spiritmight (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Wow. What a stupid comparison.



It actually isn't.  It's a simple analogy but I think it illustrates your inability to differentiate betweem preteen Obito and adult Obito quite well.


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## Narutossss (Jul 30, 2014)

gabzilla said:


> It doesn't matter if Naruto was talking about younger Obito (it would make sense if _Kakashi_ said that, since - you know - he actually _knew_ him). Naruto got pissed at Black Zetsu for making fun of him. Why the fuck would he get pissed because of that? This is the guy that hours ago killed one of your friends and then mocked you for not being able to save him, is not like what Zetsu said was false.


Did you forget that naruto has ninshu and he can actually see peoples thoughts and memories vise versa as well.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> It actually isn't.  It's a simple analogy but I think it illustrates your inability to differentiate betweem preteen Obito and adult Obito quite well.



No. It was utterly moronic. 

The Obito that Kakashi knew and the Obito that killed countless people and caused suffering of probably even more are the same person; just different sides to that person. *Actions and deeds*, is what you fail to grasp here.

Your comparison failed because first of all, you missed the opportunity to make it about the BULLY that was victimizing the other individual. In which case, the example itself would be valid but the attempt to connect it to Obito would have failed. To elaborate, a man as a child victimizes another in their youth and upon reaching adulthood the man has become an altruistic individual. The point remains that he was always himself, it's just that who he was changed over time.


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## son_michael (Jul 30, 2014)

gabzilla said:


> It doesn't matter if Naruto was talking about younger Obito (it would make sense if _Kakashi_ said that, since - you know - he actually _knew_ him). Naruto got pissed at Black Zetsu for making fun of him. Why the fuck would he get pissed because of that? This is the guy that hours ago killed one of your friends and then mocked you for not being able to save him, is not like what Zetsu said was false.



Naruto knows everything about Obito, you should re read that last fight with Obito where Naruto sees into his heart.


----------



## Suit (Jul 30, 2014)

ITT: Little kids try to be adults with their "reasoning" that Obito did some messed up stuff while being manipulated by someone who was also being manipulated by the evil son of a demi-god. Even though Obito was truly sorrowful and regretful of what he did he does not deserve forgiveness. Sasuke on the other hand, one who doesn't give the first damn about the awful things he has done, deserves forgiveness, and _even the Hokage title!_

Oh Naruto fanbase


----------



## ChickenPotPie (Jul 30, 2014)

Guys, just because you're in love with this "will of Rin" nonsense that has polluted this manga for long time doesn't mean we all are.

Good riddance to one of the worst characters in the entire story.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 30, 2014)

Guys, OP didn't made this thread for morals. He made this thread because Naruto thinks Obito is cooler than Itachi.

Either way, Gai is the coolest guy.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Jul 30, 2014)

I'm lost on how Naruto can call murderer of his parents too.

But this is not the first time that becoming Konoha fapper excuses you from everything terrible you did in life.


----------



## ch1p (Jul 30, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> skinny nerd from 20 years ago becomes a heavyweight boxing champion
> 
> person refers to and acknowledges that he used to beat up and pick on skinny nerd from 20 years ago
> 
> ...



That's nice and all and I agree he's talking about the *past* Obito (as I've said before), but Naruto took offence when BZ was mocking the *present* Obito. If you say was true, then Naruto would've been fine with the mocking of *present* Obito or said, as I've said before in this thread, Obito was cool *once* as he'd be defending *past* Obito.

But he didn't. Naruto didn't acknowledge that Obito was fucked up once just as much as he was cool once. He chose to selectively chose what he likes and ignore what he doesn't like, even though Black Zetsu was mocking precisely what he didn't like, not what he liked. This is white washing.



Rosi said:


> Implying Obito is not the coolest guy.
> 
> Naruto said what had to be said
> 
> And his fanboying was cute



Your set.


----------



## takL (Jul 30, 2014)

yep naruto says shut up to bz cos obitos already got back to his old self.


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## gabzilla (Jul 30, 2014)

Narutossss said:


> Did you forget that naruto has ninshu and he can actually see peoples thoughts and memories vise versa as well.





son_michael said:


> Naruto knows everything about Obito, you should re read that last fight with Obito where Naruto sees into his heart.



a five minute flashback doesn't mean he _knows_ him, unlike somebody like Kakashi, who didn't get shit in this chapter

also I hope the people defending this crap are as understanding when Naruto inevitably converts Sasuke


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## Amol (Jul 30, 2014)

Obito was a cool character.


----------



## Shinryu (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto must have some mental defect that makes his feelings over power her logic.Obito reminds him of himself so he overlooks all the horrible shit he did.Sasuke should have been smiling while Obito was dieing because that bastard aided Itachi in killing his own clan.


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## Za Fuuru (Jul 30, 2014)

gabzilla said:


> This is the guy that hours ago killed one of your friends and then mocked you for not being able to save him, is not like what Zetsu said was false.


This is the guy who hours ago:

- stole Yin Kyuubi from Madara
- stole bijuu chakra from Madara
- saved Kakashi's life with Kamui
- saved Naruto's life with Yin Kyuubi
- saved Sakura's life with Kamui
- saved Sasuke from the Desert dimension
- saved Kakashi's life AGAIN and Sasuke's life AT THE SAME TIME with Kamui
- saved Naruto's life AGAIN with his body

This is what Obito did hours ago. Without Obito we would have Naruto dead and Madara Juubi jin anyway.


----------



## Palm Siberia (Jul 30, 2014)

That reminds me has the sun come up yet lmao it's still not morning yet in Naruto world.


----------



## gabzilla (Jul 30, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> This is the guy who hours ago:
> 
> - stole Yin Kyuubi from Madara
> - stole bijuu chakra from Madara
> ...



Oh man, he's helping solve shit he _caused_ in the first place, that totally redeems him for 17 years of atrocities. What a hero.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2014)

People need to get a fucking grip. 

Obito has saved his life on numerous occasions now, rescued Sasuke and spared Kakashi from death. It doesn't erase the wrong he has done, but in the heat of the moment it is understandable that some would choose to remember the good that he has done (seeing as they were some of his final acts).


----------



## NW (Jul 30, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> Did this make anyone else cringe?
> 
> Calm down son, he's not that cool.


Someone praises Obito Uchiha and guys gotta do damage control. :ignoramus


----------



## Pocalypse (Jul 30, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> This is the guy who hours ago:
> 
> - stole Yin Kyuubi from Madara
> - stole bijuu chakra from Madara
> ...





---


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## Bender (Jul 30, 2014)

Someone who tried to kill you as a child is "the coolest guy"

And Kishi's writing continues to deteriorate.. What else is new


----------



## ueharakk (Jul 30, 2014)

I thought it was obvious that the Obito Naruto was referring to was the current one who, while on the brink of death, risked his life on multiple occasions for Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura, and ended up paying the ultimate price.

That Obito would have never done the evils Obito did before and during the war.


----------



## Norngpinky (Jul 30, 2014)

I think that line could have been omitted, but maybe Kishi wanted the readers to have the feeeeels of the moment, with Obito dying and saving lives at the same time while the hero tears up for him. So the emphasis was probably on the younger version of Obito and who he used to be, instead of this crazy guy who tried to ruin the world because Rin died. 

I think it was a little overboard for that. 

Awkward.


----------



## Bitch (Jul 30, 2014)

I cringed hard.  Oh Kishi.


----------



## Tony Lou (Jul 30, 2014)

Does anyone else think Rin looked really creepy here?



"Okay, maybe she has a reason to say that despite having watched Obito's evil deeds all along."

*Moves to the last page and looks at the top left panel*

"Nope, she's definitely crazy."


----------



## KingBoo (Jul 30, 2014)

obviously the coolest character is aoba


----------



## Raiden (Jul 30, 2014)

You never know how this will play out. Obito said to Naruto to "become Hokage at all costs." That does foreshadow to me that there will be some big problems once Kaguya is out of the way. And I think one thing Naruto will be criticized by his obvious opponent for is this high minded idealism and forgiveness that he so readily embraces. Naruto has been able to change everyone but one guy, and it doesn't seem like he's going to do it with his current approach. See my sig : 3.


----------



## NarutoShion4ever (Jul 30, 2014)

17 pages ?!?




Raiden said:


> You never know how this will play out. Obito said to Naruto to "become Hokage at all costs." That does foreshadow to me that there will be some big problems once Kaguya is out of the way. And I think one thing Naruto will be criticized by his obvious opponent for is this high minded idealism and forgiveness that he so readily embraces. Naruto has been able to change everyone but one guy, and it doesn't seem like he's going to do it with his current approach. See my sig : 3.




At all cost = Danzo's playbook

At all cost = A fight to the death between Naruto and Sasuke as there can be...only one...hokage. 

It's fun imagining what it can mean.


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## OodboO (Jul 30, 2014)

I don't agree with you whiny little bitches. :33 That's the point of forgiveness. To see the good in ugliest of people and show them love. You don't fight hatred with more of it. Say what you will, but Naruto's thinking is nothing short of admirable exhibition of strength.


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

Obito's saving team 7 lives is barely a payback for them (some?) saving his life/not killing him. 

1-When Obito was going to fall in the lava, who saved his life? Kakashi did. 
2-When was suppose to die again, Naruto saved him via his Yin/yang power (don't remember which one it was)
3- When he was going to be killed by Kakashi/Sasuke, he was saved by Minato/Naruto. 

Even in their fight in this War, Kakashi had several chances to kill him as obito himself admitted, but he did not
kill him.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

OodboO said:


> I don't agree with you whiny little bitches. :33 That's the point of forgiveness. To see the good in ugliest of people and show them love. You don't fight hatred with more of it. Say what you will, but Naruto's thinking is nothing short of admirable exhibition of strength.



The man killed his parents, and numerous others all over his childhood crush. No one is talking about spitting in the guy's face, but this...this is just a disgusting. Apologists like you are pretending that there is some limitless boundary of forgiveness when there isn't.


----------



## spiritmight (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> The man killed his parents, and numerous others all over his childhood crush. No one is talking about spitting in the guy's face, but this...this is just a disgusting. Apologists like you are pretending that there is some limitless boundary of forgiveness when there isn't.




Kaiba's a shit character


----------



## Scila9 (Jul 30, 2014)

Taijukage said:


> are you saying he WOULDNT be a murderer if he remained in konoha's employ as a soldier? never get ordered on a mission which results in lives getting fucked up?
> 
> this is a problem for me. people despise how obito betrayed konoha, which wasn't the paragon of innocence, anyway and killed/manipulated people. ok but who is to say he wouldnt have killed half as many as a konoha assassin?
> he would lie and kill in the service of liars and killers.
> the only difference is that the people in konoha like to try and justify it with "its for the sake of the village" will of fire bullshit.



... the hell?

First off, I'm not saying he wouldn't be a murderer. I'm saying he wouldn't be a MASS murderer and I'm also saying that yeah, his reasons would be hella better. I could probably sympathize with him then at least. Like I do a lot of the main characters.

Second off, I don't despise Obito for betraying Konoha. I don't despise him at all.

I do not give a single fuck about his character is all, and no amount of him trying his best to make up for his sins will get me to give one. I am a rock when it comes to him. He literally threw away his humanity. He gave up on the world and everyone in it. He forsake Kakashi, Minato, his dreams, everything. Dying to try and make up for his assholery is the best thing he could do. So congratulations on doing that at least, Obito. You were okay in the end.

I am amazed you just compared soldiers fighting in the name of their home with a mass murderer who wanted to control the world. Oh I'm sorry, in his mind he, of course, like so many other villains, believed he would be making things "better" for everyone.

Obito did everything he did because he no longer gave a fuck about this reality. Soldiers/Ninjas do give a darn. They give lots of fucks. _That_ is essentially the reason they (most of them anyway) fight. 

Obito wanted to take away everyone's freewill. He wanted to force everyone into a false reality regardless of what they wanted because _he_ wanted Rin back. Because _he_ decided that peace was impossible in that world. (Madara too)

What the hell gave him the right to decide all that? Rin dying?

"Lying and killing in the service of liars and killers"

FFS could you think of a worse possible way of putting it? Do people's reasons for fighting really mean nothing to you?

Yeah, the system's fucked up. It's fucked up in RL too, but don't compare soldiers who still give a damn about this world to someone who doesn't. Obito basically gave up faith in humanity. As I said, he threw away his own humanity. Never friggin throw away your humanity cuz then you become a monster.

It's great that Obito found himself again, but it doesn't erase everything he did. It does not make him "cool" IMO

It's fine if you like Obito, but don't get in my face for not. If you seriously cannot understand why someone wouldn't care for him then... then I'm just not gonna bother. It should be common sense why someone wouldn't.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

As I stated, there is no limitless boundary on forgiveness, in turn, a story can't try to pretend there is and expect it to connect with the reader. Obito is just far too much of a monster to have his atrocities attempted to be pushed aside because he had a change of heart when it was he whom was directly responsible for nearly all the strife to begin with.


----------



## ueharakk (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> The man killed his parents, and numerous others all over his childhood crush. No one is talking about spitting in the guy's face, but this...this is just a disgusting. *Apologists like you are pretending that there is some limitless boundary of forgiveness when there isn't.*


1) Naruto is obviously talking about the current Obito who picked up the ideals of his old self

2) Since when does Naruto forgiving Obito for that = there is some limitless boundary of forgiveness?

3) Why in the world does anyone have to accept the bolded as true?

Unless you believe it's literally impossible for a human to forgive someone for those things regardless of what the goals of that human is or what kind of upbringing they had, then you have no grounds for asserting that Naruto forgiving Obito is some kind of wrong or unrealistic.


----------



## OodboO (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> The man killed his parents, and numerous others all over his childhood crush. No one is talking about spitting in the guy's face, but this...this is just a disgusting. Apologists like you are pretending that there is some limitless boundary of forgiveness when there isn't.



Are you going to set that limit? 
You can't condition and quantify forgiveness you retard. Its whole power and value lies in the fact that its only limit is the depth of human soul.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> 1) Naruto is obviously talking about the current Obito who picked up the ideals of his old self
> 
> 2) Since when does Naruto forgiving Obito for that = there is some limitless boundary of forgiveness?
> 
> ...



1. There is no separating the monster that caused tragedy and the Obito that briefly had a change of heart before his death. His last acts do not outweigh a lifetime of evils. 

2. Because Obito is directly at the center of the primary tragedies and atrocities that have shaped Naruto and Sasuke's lives, as well as that of the ninja world. Because for such an individual it goes far beyond breaking any reasonable notions of forgiveness and redemption. 

3. Accepting it or not doesn't change that the fact is true. People generally have a finite capacity for forgiveness.  

Implausible, unrealistic to expect, not necessarily impossible. But it being possible doesn't mean being relatable, which is the whole point in expressing such themes. It is unrealistic in consideration of the acts Obito has done and how it has impacted Naruto's life and those around him. Particularly to the extent expressed. Before you make your next response, understand that not forgiving a person is not the same as hating them and spitting at them...at least for the rest of one's life.


----------



## Milliardo (Jul 30, 2014)

OodboO said:


> I don't agree with you whiny little bitches. :33 That's the point of forgiveness. To see the good in ugliest of people and show them love. You don't fight hatred with more of it. Say what you will, but Naruto's thinking is nothing short of admirable exhibition of strength.



this post makes me want to throw up... you don't kill thousands of people because your twelve year old girlfriend died either. there is no such thing as unlimited forgiveness and you would be crazy to even think that way. to me that sounds like someone who thinks very little of one's self if i'm honest. 


naruto's thinking is flawed on many different levels. what gets me though is that some of you actually agree with it and defend it. that is very scary.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

OodboO said:


> Are you going to set that limit?
> You can't condition and quantify forgiveness you retard. Its whole power and value lies in the fact that its only limit is the depth of human soul.



_I_ haven't set any limit. There are and were always limits to such matters, because as I like to say virtues can easily become vices when taken too far. Kishi would have to be out of his mind to expect people to see this event and expect most people to relate to it in consideration of all Obito has done and how that relates to Naruto. It is not going to be considered exemplary or admirable, but as people have clearly expressed, more than a little fucked up.


----------



## OodboO (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> _I_ haven't set any limit. There are and were always limits to such matters, because as I like to say virtues can easily become vices when taken too far.



Become vices if taken too far?
You are bastardising the very notion of wise thinking.

You can't rigidly quantify it. You can't say "there are limits" and call it a day just because you're too lazy to think.

Whether something is a virtue or a vice depends on all the factors that surround the situation. Naruto's forgiveness of sins of a man who has acknowledged his sins is nothing short of wise. From every frickin' angle you look at it from. Especially the consequence angle.

But since you don't have kindness in your heart to feel what true forgiveness is, let alone to see what it means for the world around you, you refuse to even consider. All you see are calculations: But he did..!

Yeah, I'm sure he did... 
You don't even grasp the concept of forgiveness to be able to wield it. And you're going to tell me at what point it becomes a vice. Puh-lease. 



Seto Kaiba said:


> Kishi would have to be out of his mind to expect people to...



He isn't expecting people to do anything. He is describing what people do. He knows very well what they do.
Act like bratty children, point fingers and wage wars always screaming how much of a victim they are.

Don't tell me about the people.



Milliardo said:


> to me that sounds like someone who thinks very little of one's self if i'm honest.


Yes, idiots like Jesus and Ghandi have no notion of self respect...


----------



## ueharakk (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> 1. There is no separating the monster that caused tragedy and the Obito that briefly had a change of heart before his death. His last acts do not outweigh a lifetime of evils.


Sure his acts of good do not outweigh all the wrong that he did, which is why had he lived he would have been punished for his crimes.  However, there obviously IS separating the Obito who committed those acts from the Obito who Naruto is praising on a personal level.  Do you think the Obito that just sacrificed his life for Naruto would have killed all those people or started this war?  



Seto Kaiba said:


> 2. Because Obito is directly at the center of the primary tragedies and atrocities that have shaped Naruto and Sasuke's lives, as well as that of the ninja world. *Because for such an individual it goes far beyond breaking any reasonable notions of forgiveness and redemption.*


That's just you asserting your own arbitrary bar for what is 'reasonable to forgive'.  Why should I or anyone have to accept what you perceive as a limit of human forgiveness as the true limit of human forgiveness?  I'm sure there are people in this world who wouldn't forgive me if I nudged them the wrong way while there are others who would forgive me if I hit them with my car.  

So no, just because you in your limited experience of humanity and reality believe that this arbitrary limit for what is 'reasonably forgivable' is below what Naruto has done in no way shape or form means that that Naruto has surpassed this asserted limit, or that that limit even exists to begin with.




Seto Kaiba said:


> 3. Accepting it or not doesn't change that the fact is true. *People in generally have a finite capacity for forgiveness.*


I can agree with the bolded, but why in the world does the fact that most or a lot of people display only a finite capacity to forgive = ALL PERSONS have a finite capacity to forgive?  



Seto Kaiba said:


> *Implausible, unrealistic to expect, not necessarily impossible. *But it being possible doesn't mean being relatable, which is the whole point in expressing such themes. It is unrealistic in consideration of the acts Obito has done and how it has impacted Naruto's life and those around him. Particularly to the extent expressed.


Naruto is the titular character of one of or the most popular shounen mangas.  He holds the highest of ideals in the manga and is suppose to be capable of doing things that the normal person is not.   He's suppose to be like the representation of human potential. So I don't understand why anyone would expect Naruto to have the same 'breaking points' as a normal person.  

As for being relatable, Naruto is VERY relatable.  The entire manga goes through his mental processes, issues he's struggled with, and why he became the person who's capable of forgiving someone like Obito.  Sure if you've just started the manga in the kaguya fight and read up about what Obito did in the past, and had no knowledge about Naruto's ideology then sure there would be a lot of questions raised about his position toward Obito.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2014)

Why does it always go back to people saying, ''It's because of his crush'', when the series has made it pretty clear that he lost hope with the world at large. As I've said before, his actions were atrocious, but it is a cheap attempt at criticism to link his actions to Rin's death alone. 

As for Naruto's response to Obito's death, so what? Different people have different temperaments, some having a greater capacity for forgiveness. Obito's actions did not outweigh the evil he committed but in the thick of battle I wouldn't exactly expect someone to focus on the long list of crimes he has committed, I'd expect them to focus on the here and now. To that end, Obito went beyond his limits to do as much good as possible before finally snuffing it. For many people, that would be in their thoughts as he died. 

The above should not be difficult to understand yet some individuals cannot separate their own behavioural pattern and standards from others.


----------



## Plague (Jul 30, 2014)

I'm all for forgiving others and stuff but Naruto jumped the gun a bit here. Maybe it was just an "in the moment" type reaction since he doesn't like it when people talk down to others. 

But as a whole, I agree with the general consensus that this was pretty bad. Didn't Kishi get a new editor? Did he make this chapter before or after XD

Kishi just can't keep the villains bad hahaha


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 















































That in addition to him helping killing the uchiha members, and it would be even worst if we take in consideration what the other Akatsuki members did because of him and his orders.

Narudo is my favourite character, and will always be. But, even I can't deny that he was full of shit in this chapter. *faceplam*


----------



## mlc818 (Jul 30, 2014)

All the cool people love Obito, I dunno what's wrong with you guys ;P


----------



## SharkBomb 4 (Jul 30, 2014)

Maybe people should just accept that this is the way Naruto as a character is. It's not like the other characters are unaware of what Obito has done.


Black Zetsu tears into him pretty thoroughly here and Obito just accepts it since he knows how shitty he's been. Naruto, experienced Obito's memories and emotions before and he's also naturally someone that forgives very easily. That's just the kind of guy he is.


----------



## Scila9 (Jul 30, 2014)

Gunners said:


> Why does it always go back to people saying, ''It's because of his crush'', when the series has made it pretty clear that he lost hope with the world at large. As I've said before, his actions were atrocious, but it is a cheap attempt at criticism to link his actions to Rin's death alone.
> 
> As for Naruto's response to Obito's death, so what? Different people have different temperaments, some having a greater capacity for forgiveness. Obito's actions did not outweigh the evil he committed but in the thick of battle I wouldn't exactly expect someone to focus on the long list of crimes he has committed, I'd expect them to focus on the here and now. To that end, Obito went beyond his limits to do as much good as possible before finally snuffing it. For many people, that would be in their thoughts as he died.
> 
> The above should not be difficult to understand yet some individuals cannot separate their own behavioural pattern and standards from others.



I get what you're saying, but I don't see how you can separate his love for Rin and him giving up on the world. He only gave up on the world because/after Rin died. They're connected.

Naruto letting go of what Obito did isn't what was cringeworthy here. It's him calling him the coolest. Not only is he talking as if the person responsible for his parents death and a whole lot of other crap has become one of his favorite people now, but it sounds cheesy as hell when he's doing it.

Of course, it's just like Naruto. A lot of his lines are cheesy. Doesn't stop me from facepalming sometimes.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

OodboO said:


> Become vices if taken too far?
> You are bastardising the very notion of wise thinking.
> 
> You can't rigidly quantify it. You can't say "there are limits" and call it a day just because you're too lazy to think.



Actually not realizing there are limits is indicative of laziness. 

Standing up for one's ideals is a virtue....Radical fanaticism is a vice. They are born from the same trait of perseverance which in itself becomes obstinacy. Just for an example. 



> Whether something is a virtue or a vice depends on all the factors that surround the situation.



factors which have been cited in this matter. 



> Naruto's forgiveness of sins of a man who has acknowledged his sins is nothing short of wise. From every frickin' angle you look at it from. Especially the consequence angle.
> 
> But since you don't have kindness in your heart to feel what true forgiveness is, let alone to see what it means for the world around you, you refuse to even consider. All you see are calculations: But he did..!



No it isn't, considering the sins he committed. Not only would it not be wise, and forgiveness isn't necessarily about wisdom anyway...it just isn't relatable any in common sense of the matter. 

I think it's out there to forgive a mass murderer, that is responsible for the major tragedies taking place. Truly I am a cold-hearted person. 



> Yeah, I'm sure he did...
> You don't even grasp the concept of forgiveness to be able to wield it. And you're going to tell me at what point it becomes a vice. Puh-lease.



I grasp the concept of forgiveness, which is why I'm aware of that generally to people there is a limited capacity for it. AGAIN that does not mean dwelling on hatred of the individual(s). 



ueharakk said:


> Sure his acts of good do not outweigh all the wrong that he did, which is why had he lived he would have been punished for his crimes.  However, there obviously IS separating the Obito who committed those acts from the Obito who Naruto is praising on a personal level.  Do you think the Obito that just sacrificed his life for Naruto would have killed all those people or started this war?



He had within him the capacity for it. Which is why good ol' boy Obito become the monster he was as an adult. The fact that he for a brief moment in his life went back to his nature as a child still doesn't change that within him still was that capacity to return back as he was all the same...and he showed very clearly the damage he can do with that evil.



> That's just you asserting your own arbitrary bar for what is 'reasonable to forgive'.  Why should I or anyone have to accept what you perceive as a limit of human forgiveness as the true limit of human forgiveness?  I'm sure there are people in this world who wouldn't forgive me if I nudged them the wrong way while there are others who would forgive me if I hit them with my car.



It is not my limit. It is the awareness that people have their limits.

It is the awareness that as it pertains to murder, particularly mass murder that limit is more often than not broken and because of that one such as Kishi should not expect people to sympathize with attempts to express forgiveness of such as being a good thing. Again, especially not to the extent Naruto expressed. 



> So no, just because you in your limited experience of humanity and reality believe that this arbitrary limit for what is 'reasonably forgivable' is below what Naruto has done in no way shape or form means that that Naruto has surpassed this asserted limit, or that that limit even exists to begin with.



Funny, my limited experience of humanity and reality...It's my understanding that people have their limits, regardless of my own. You are being hilariously ironic in saying so if you are seriously trying to argue that the average person would forgive such things and find portrayals at forgiveness of such acts as something exemplary. 



> I can agree with the bolded, but why in the world does the fact that most or a lot of people display only a finite capacity to forgive = ALL PERSONS have a finite capacity to forgive?



Because MOST people is what matters when expressing theme? 

MOST people are going to find mass murder the absolute most heinous crime one can do something unforgivable, and excuse my invocation but...Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, just to name a few...these people are considered monsters to this day that are completely unforgivable because of the atrocities they committed. You are not going to reasonably expect an attempt to portray forgiveness of such figures to be taken well, no matter how much regret is expressed for the actions. 



> Naruto is the titular character of one of or the most popular shounen mangas.  He holds the highest of ideals in the manga and is suppose to be capable of doing things that the normal person is not.   He's suppose to be like the representation of human potential. So I don't understand why anyone would expect Naruto to have the same 'breaking points' as a normal person.



He's a Gary Stu. He's not a representation of human potential, he's a messiah-esque figure with a slapped-on prophecy that will solve all the worlds ills not because of any display of critical thinking or ability to understand the root of problems, but just because. He doesn't uphold the highest ideals because for one he's quite selective about them, of course the story isn't going to point that out and what's more he said he couldn't forgive a person like Nagato so it really makes no sense that he would for one such as Obito. 

It is what makes Naruto such a compromised protagonist. 



> As for being relatable, Naruto is VERY relatable.  The entire manga goes through his mental processes, issues he's struggled with, and why he became the person who's capable of forgiving someone like Obito.



That is exactly what makes him unrelatable. On the contrary to many people he comes off as deranged and hypocritical, and I would have to agree with that assessment. 



> Sure if you've just started the manga in the kaguya fight and read up about what Obito did in the past, and had no knowledge about Naruto's ideology then sure there would be a lot of questions raised about his position toward Obito.



It's the attempt to express the moral theme of forgiveness through that event that is being under dispute, not the fact that the event occurred.


----------



## Skull007 (Jul 30, 2014)

Obligatory reminder:





takL said:


> naruto: don't laugh at Obito!!
> The Obito that aimed to be Hokage was...in my eyes...
> Nothing less than badass!!
> (=Obito aimed to be Hokage...which is, if you ask me ...
> ...


----------



## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> I get what you're saying, but I don't see how you can separate his love for Rin and him giving up on the world. He only gave up on the world because/after Rin died. They're connected.
> 
> Naruto letting go of what Obito did isn't what was cringeworthy here. *It's him calling him the coolest. *Not only is he talking as if the person responsible for his parents death and a whole lot of other crap has become one of his favorite people now, but it sounds cheesy as hell when he's doing it.
> 
> Of course, it's just like Naruto. A lot of his lines are cheesy. Doesn't stop me from facepalming sometimes.



Yup.  
you would've think that he at least think of people like Jiraiya, Iruka, his parents or even Sasuke for God's sake, but no. Obito is better than all of them! Naruto, you fucked up really bad.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> I get what you're saying, but I don't see how you can separate his love for Rin and him giving up on the world. He only gave up on the world because/after Rin died. They're connected.
> 
> Naruto letting go of what Obito did isn't what was cringeworthy here. It's him calling him the coolest. Not only is he talking as if the person responsible for his parents death and a whole lot of other crap has become one of his favorite people now, but it sounds cheesy as hell when he's doing it.
> 
> Of course, it's just like Naruto. A lot of his lines are cheesy. Doesn't stop me from facepalming sometimes.



Rin dying was the trigger that made him reach his conclusion on what the world's reality was. The two things are connected, but it is dishonest to make the claim that he wants to change the world because of Rin as it overlooks his legitimate grievances with the ninja system. 

As for Naruto calling him ''The coolest'', that is an incorrect translation. According to takL it should read ''The Obito that aimed to be Hokage was...in my eyes...Nothing less than badass!". It refers to a specific moment in Obito's life and is his own opinion on Obito's previous aspirations.


----------



## OodboO (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> factors which have been cited in this matter.



No. Blame has been cited.
Like I said, you don't grasp the concept in the least.



> No it isn't, considering the sins he committed. Not only would it not be wise, and forgiveness isn't necessarily about wisdom anyway...it just isn't relatable any in common sense of the matter.


Forgiveness is about wisdom and strength. Not just wisdom. 
But to talk about strength, you need have the wisdom part down.



> I think it's out there to forgive a mass murderer, that is responsible for the major tragedies taking place. Truly I am a cold-hearted person.


Not a cold hearted person. You're a shallow person.



> I grasp the concept of forgiveness, which is why I'm aware of that generally to people there is a limited capacity for it. AGAIN that does not mean dwelling on hatred of the individual(s).


Yes, the people... Because what would we do without the approval of the masses? 




> He had within him the capacity for it. Which is why good ol' boy Obito become the monster he was as an adult. The fact that he for a brief moment in his life went back to his nature as a child still doesn't change that within him still was that capacity to return back as he was all the same...and he showed very clearly the damage he can do with that evil.


To chastise another for their weakness, you need to be strong. You need to be perfect.
Yet it's always weaklings like you who "cast the first stone".


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

You know. It's the fact that people in attempts to defend it here have continuously had to cry its fiction in relation to an attempt to express a moral theme, and the fact that they have had to concede that the average individual has a limited capacity for forgiveness particularly in that for one such as Obito it would go well beyond that capacity which makes the whole attempt to express that theme of forgiveness and redemption a failure through this event.



OodboO said:


> No. Blame has been cited.
> Like I said, you don't grasp the concept in the least.



Of course one would blame Obito for mass murder...because that's exactly what he did.



> Forgiveness is about wisdom and strength. Not just wisdom.
> But to talk about strength, you need have the wisdom part down.
> 
> Not a cold hearted person. You're a shallow person.



In and of itself, yes. However, again virtues to vices, and that quickly becomes foolishness and sometimes a lack of self-respect. 

Oh...the irony. It's too much! 



> Yes, the people... Because what would we do without the masse's approval?



Uh...well considering Kishi desires to express and connect to the reader themes of morality through his storytelling, the people are more than a little important here.



> To chastise another for their weakness, you need to be strong. You need to be perfect.
> Yet it's always weaklings like you who "cast the first stone".



Well. Seeing as I haven't murdered anyone lately or at all...I think I'll chug a mountain.

That is seriously demented what you just said.


----------



## LesExit (Jul 30, 2014)

OodboO said:


> Are you going to set that limit?
> You can't condition and quantify forgiveness you retard. Its whole power and value lies in the fact that its only limit is the depth of human soul.


As much as I hate everything that Obito did...this actually is true. Any person who tries to set the limit for whether or not a person should be forgiven is just spouting their own personal BS. I myself don't think I could ever forgive Obito for what he did, and I myself don't understand how anyone could find it in their heart to do such a thing , but that doesn't mean there aren't people _capable_ of doing that. Naruto just so happens to be a person capable of doing such a thing. He's lvl 99 monk lol


Though it really could've been written better than, "the coolest"


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> You know. It's the fact that people in attempts to defend it here have continuously had to cry its fiction in relation to an attempt to express a moral theme, and the fact that they have had to concede that the average individual has a limited capacity for forgiveness particularly in that for one such as Obito it would go well beyond that capacity which makes the whole attempt to express that theme of forgiveness and redemption a failure through this event.



You state your points with such arrogance that they almost seem legitimate. 

1) There is no problem with people reminding you that it is fiction. Unlike reality, concepts such as forgiveness, peace, trust, hatred etc. can, and often are, presented in their purest form. To that end, Naruto's forgiveness of Obito should come as no surprise because it is a natural result of implementing the theme of breaking a cycle of hatred. 

2) Conceding that the average person is not capable of such forgiveness does not equate to the theme being a failure. What kind of argument is that? The average person isn't capable of great acts of bravery or self sacrifice, are films that involve a hero making the ultimate sacrifice a failure as a result? No. Characters in fiction do not have to share the same limitations as the average Joe; people in real life surpass the limitations of the average Joe.


----------



## OodboO (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Of course one would blame Obito for mass murder...because that's exactly what he did.


Dude, my point...  Ho..? 
Wow... 



> In and of itself, yes. However, again virtues to vices, and that quickly becomes foolishness and sometimes a lack of self-respect.


Weak can't forgive, you retard. True forgiveness comes from a place of strength and love. One has to rise above the hatred to forgive.
Those who succumb to it are the ones unable to forgive. i.e. You.

Lack of self respect... 





> Uh...well considering Kishi desires to express and connect to the reader themes of morality through his storytelling, the people are more than a little important here.


This conversation is about manga popularity to you now? 





> Well. Seeing as I haven't murdered anyone lately I think I'll chug a mountain.
> That is seriously demented what you just said.



Ok, now it's getting a little funny.


----------



## gabzilla (Jul 30, 2014)

Skull007 said:


> Obligatory reminder:



That's fine and all but why did Naruto get mad at BZ mocking Obito? He was telling the truth 

People that think this was badly done know that Naruto is ninja Jesus and were not expecting much better. It still makes Kishimoto trying to paint Obito as some kind of martyr because he fixed some things in the past few chapters (things that wouldn't have happened in the first place if it wasn't for him) hilarious. The only person to actually address that they can't forgive Obito but thanked him for services provided was _Sakura_ of all people. It doesn't help that it became all about Naruto _again_, disregarding Kakashi and even disregarding Sasuke, who should be pretty pissed at Obito.

Naruto wasn't Obito's only victim, him defending him is spitting on the grave of his many _many_ victims.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

> Weak can't forgive, you retard. True forgiveness comes from a place of strength and love. One has to rise above the hatred to forgive.
> Those who succumb to it are the ones unable to forgive. i.e. You.
> 
> Lack of self respect...



Forgiveness sometimes requires strength, but not forgiving does not mean being gripped by one's hatred or a lack of strength. Strength can also mean that while you can never forgive an individual, you'll not let your hate rule your life. 

Also...The man who stays his hand is going to get more respect than the man who failed to and only realized it was wrong after the fact. 



> This about the manga popularity to you now?



The ability for people to connect with and resonate with the event trying to express the moral message is the most important thing to consider.



LesExit said:


> As much as I hate everything that Obito did...this actually is true. Any person who tries to set the limit for whether or not a person should be forgiven is just spouting their own personal BS. I myself don't think I could ever forgive Obito for what he did, and I myself don't understand how anyone could find it in their heart to do such a thing , but that doesn't mean there aren't people _capable_ of doing that. Naruto just so happens to be a person capable of doing such a thing. He's lvl 99 monk lol
> 
> 
> Though it really could've been written better than, "the coolest"



Oh god. 

It's understanding once again, that most people, virtually anyone, have their limits. Independent of your own. It's understanding what that limit is to most people, or at the very least what goes well beyond it. The fact that she is trying to argue in favor of forgiveness of such deeds only shows he doesn't have that understanding.


----------



## Scila9 (Jul 30, 2014)

Gunners said:


> Rin dying was the trigger that made him reach his conclusion on what the world's reality was. The two things are connected, but it is dishonest to make the claim that he wants to change the world because of Rin as it overlooks his legitimate grievances with the ninja system.
> 
> As for Naruto calling him ''The coolest'', that is an incorrect translation. According to takL it should read ''The Obito that aimed to be Hokage was...in my eyes...Nothing less than badass!". It refers to a specific moment in Obito's life and is his own opinion on Obito's previous aspirations.



That's why I don't call bullshit when people say Obito did all this "because Rin died"

It's simplifying things, but the fact is that if Rin didn't die Obito wouldn't have made those conclusions about the world/ninja system. If they say "because of Rin" that's a different story. Though I do believe that wanting to see Rin again was a factor in him wanting the IT. On second thought, maybe it was just a bonus.

That's a much less cheesy translation. Much preferred. Naruto talking about how cool he thinks young Obito was is a weak way of defending him against what BZ is saying though imo


----------



## Suigetsu (Jul 30, 2014)

Dont forget about Konan, and turning the hidden mist village into a bloody nightmare. Enslaving their leader, expelling all of their bloodline clans "including the Kaguya's" and probably behind Mangetsu's death.

Also Calling Suigetsu a lackey...

Obito, fuck you.


----------



## LesExit (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Oh god.
> 
> It's understanding once again, that most people, virtually anyone, have their limits. Independent of your own. It's understanding what that limit is to most people, or at the very least what goes well beyond it. The fact that she is trying to argue in favor of forgiveness of such deeds only shows he doesn't have that understanding.


Who cares if it's beyond the limit for most?  Does that make him wrong, or simply exceptionally good at forgiving people?  In my opinion he's being too lenient, I see nothing about him forgiving him which is objectively wrong however. I don't think theres a point in arguing in favor of forgiving or not in favor, a persons limit for forgiving is up to them and their own internal strength. Naruto's level takes an incredible amount of internal strength, strength I definitely don't have and most others don't either.


----------



## OodboO (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Forgiveness sometimes requires strength, but not forgiving does not mean being gripped by one's hatred or a lack of strength. Strength can also mean that while you can never forgive an individual, you'll not let your hate rule your life.


We got it, you don't understand what it means to forgive. You can stop now. 



> The ability for people to connect with and resonate with the event trying to express the moral message is the most important thing to consider.


I can write you a book on healthy eating and find you hordes of fatasses who "won't connect to it". That doesn't make my words any less true.

The value of truth does not depend on the number of people who believe in it. And that core value is what we are discussing, not Kishimoto's seduction of fans. Don't switch lanes dummy. Focus.

To claim otherwise is not only retarded and embarrassing for you, but for me as well. Now I see to whom I've been speaking to all this time. I was too dumb to see how dumb you are.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Who cares if it's beyond the limit for most?  Does that make him wrong, or simply exceptionally good at forgiving people?



This is honestly getting to be a stupid question.

First of all KISHI should care if it is beyond the limit for most, because he is trying to connect the matter to the readers. Any competent author should. 

Defending the man the killed one's parents is not looked upon as an exemplary trait, he is not exceptionally good at forgiving people; again he couldn't forgive Nagato. He's just inconsistent and unrealistic regarding it. 



> In my opinion he's being too lenient, I see nothing about him forgiving him which is objectively wrong however. I don't think theres a point in arguing in favor of forgiving or not in favor, a persons limit for forgiving is up to them and their own internal strength. Naruto's level takes an incredible amount of internal strength, strength I definitely don't have and most others don't either.



But it's not a matter of strength with Naruto's character. Furthermore, that is not itself indicative of strength either...foolishness, stupidity, forgetfulness, selectivity. A number of things.




> I can write you a book on healthy eating and find you hordes of fatasses who "won't connect to it". That doesn't make my words any less true.
> 
> The value of truth does not depend on the number of people who believe in it. And that core value is what we are discussing, not Kishimoto's seduction of fans. Don't switch lanes dummy. Focus.
> 
> To claim otherwise is not only retarded and embarrassing for you, but for me as well. Now I see to whom I've been speaking to all this time. I was too dumb to see how dumb you are.



Eating has verifiable physical effects on the body, whereas the matter at hand is an intangible concept. The comparison is idiotic. 

It is not a truth, it's an attempt to express a moral theme through an event in the story. Which does depend on the author's ability to understand people, and the ability to use that event to have his intended message connect and resonate within people. The fact that you don't understand this says a lot, and explains the demented logic you've been putting forth in defense of this matter in the story.

Just as many people look upon Obito as creepy for his fixation on Rin, and Naruto as compromised in self-respect for his fixation on Sasuke, people look upon the story as of Part II at least, as a twisted portrayal of common moral themes and virtues because Kishi fails to consider that limits with people are a thing, and that having a lack of consideration can elicit disgust or lose sympathy of individuals when that isn't taken into account.


----------



## SharkBomb 4 (Jul 30, 2014)

Suigetsu said:


> Dont forget about Konan, *and turning the hidden mist village into a bloody nightmare. Enslaving their leader, expelling all of their bloodline clans "including the Kaguya's" and probably behind Mangetsu's death.*
> 
> Also Calling Suigetsu a lackey...
> 
> Obito, fuck you.



He only did one of those things I bolded. We know for a fact the bloody mist existed before Obito showed up. All he did was use the Mist as a base of operations for Akatsuki for a bit (it was stated by the Raikage at the Kage Summit that Akatsuki's criminal operations began there). 

We don't know about the bloodline cleansing and we sure as hell don't know about what happened to Mangetsu, although I suspect he was just a hired muscle similar to Kisame, with the difference being he didn't have what it took to survive in the mist.

Also Suigetsu deserved it for trying to step up to Kisame as if he was his equal.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Batman. 

There were a few notable stories in which Batman was able to meet Joe Chill, the man who killed his parents. He had the opportunity to kill him, but couldn't. However, he couldn't forgive him. Never could, but he could consider the wishes of his parents and how they'd feel if he indulged in that form of revenge and ultimately spared him for the sake of his parent's memory.

Goku again, never forgave Frieza, but he did show him some mercy. Hostile mercy, but mercy nonetheless. 

Basically, not forgiving a person doesn't mean lacking strength. Expecting forgiveness for particular actions, is just not being reasonable. Expecting people to find forgiveness of aforementioned actions as something ideal is not realistic.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 30, 2014)

Why are ppl still falling for Kaiba's trolling when he already admitted he would have a problem with Kishi's idea of morality in the NV no more how it is portrayed?


----------



## OodboO (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Eating has verifiable physical effects on the body, whereas the matter at hand is an intangible concept. The comparison is idiotic.


Both are a question of principles that govern a virtuous life. Not seeing that very simple point is idiotic.



> It is not a truth, it's an attempt to express a moral theme through an event in the story.


It's not the truth, it's an attempt to...  





> Just as many people look upon Obito as creepy for his fixation on Rin, and Naruto as compromised in self-respect for his fixation on Sasuke, people look upon the story as of Part II at least, as a twisted portrayal of common moral themes and virtues because Kishi fails to consider that limits with people are a thing, and that having a lack of consideration can elicit disgust or lose sympathy of individuals when that isn't taken into account.


So now it's about unrealistic character writing? 
Do you have ADD by any chance? 

Or is that just a severe case of intellectually dishonest asshole?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

The Format said:


> Why are ppl still falling for Kaiba's trolling when he already admitted he would have a problem with Kishi's idea of morality in the NV no more how it is portrayed?



Because at the end of the day, Kishi would still be trying to portray Obito with all he has done in the story the same way as he did now. A point which escaped you.

Don't try to bitch about it being trolling because you can't get that.



OodboO said:


> Both are a question of principles that govern a virtuous life. Not seeing that very simple point is idiotic.
> 
> It's not the truth, it's an attempt to...
> 
> ...



Eating isn't indicative of any moral virtue. 

It was always about it being unrealistic. More accurately, it was always about it completely violating the very moral themes Kishi wished to convey. 

You getting angry doesn't change my point. Sorry.

I am amazed at a number of people here that simply haven't taken the time to think about this. Really. If you did you'd know why people are reacting in disgust.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2014)

Batman. 

A character who has billions but spends most of his days risking his life by jumping into situations above his station. Yeah, that's something the common folk can relate to.

Also did Naruto actually forgive Obito? I noticed you mentioned he never forgave Nagato, but when I think about things his treatment of Obito is similar to his treatment of Nagato: individuals whom he holds in high regard in spite of their misdeeds.


----------



## ShadowReij (Jul 30, 2014)

It was a little much.


----------



## Bender (Jul 30, 2014)

SharkBomb 4 said:


> He only did one of those things I bolded. We know for a fact the bloody mist existed before Obito showed up. All he did was use the Mist as a base of operations for Akatsuki for a bit (it was stated by the Raikage at the Kage Summit that Akatsuki's criminal operations began there).





Jesus fucking Christ you're thick. 

Mei Terumi even pointed out how the Mizukage during the "bloody mist" was acting odd. Obito was behind it. The "Bloody mist" didn't preside before he entered the picture. It's when you say obnoxiously,and unbelievably dumb schtick that I don't feel any guilt about ridiculing you. :headshake


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Gunners said:


> Batman.
> 
> A character who has billions but spends most of his days risking his life by jumping into situations above his station. Yeah, that's something the common folk can relate to.



Going for the stupid today I see. It's funny how this completely invalidates yours or anyone else's attempt to defend Naruto and Obito's matter. However, thankfully...I'm helping you out. 

If that was the relatable aspect I'd cite it. You probably notice that I didn't. However, one can relate to the grief of losing loved ones. Especially over senseless actions like murder, and the ensuing anger and desire for vengeance that comes with it. In which case, it is more than anything the ability to move on, regardless of forgiveness, and not indulge oneself in the same kind of violence in retaliation that is the sign of strength here. To expect one to forgive the killer of one's loved ones is an unrealistic and unreasonable expectation; but what can be expected is not to be possessed by the desire for revenge against that individual. Batman didn't kill Joe Chill when he had the opportunity, because he knew it's not what his parents would've wanted, yet he never forgave Chill for what he did.


----------



## LesExit (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> This is honestly getting to be a stupid question.
> 
> First of all KISHI should care if it is beyond the limit for most, because he is trying to connect the matter to the readers. Any competent author should.
> 
> Defending the man the killed one's parents is not looked upon as an exemplary trait, he is not exceptionally good at forgiving people; again he couldn't forgive Nagato. He's just inconsistent and unrealistic regarding it.


(Edit...cut out something you wrote...but...ya)
You ever think Kishi thinks that having the ability to forgive like Naruto, whether or not something most can do, is a very amazing thing to be able to do? The fact that I know I don't have enough strength to do this doesn't change the fact that it can be seen as a noble thing. Many people have forgiven others for doing absolutely fucked up things in the real world. 

If you wan't to see it that way, that is your opinion. Don't try to label it as all those things and act as if it's objectively right just because you feel that way, cause others do feel different. 


Seto Kaiba said:


> Batman.
> 
> There were a few notable stories in which Batman was able to meet Joe Chill, the man who killed his parents. He had the opportunity to kill him, but couldn't. However, he couldn't forgive him. Never could, but he could consider the wishes of his parents and how they'd feel if he indulged in that form of revenge and ultimately spared him for the sake of his parent's memory.
> 
> ...


This felt kinda random...


----------



## OodboO (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Basically, not forgiving a person doesn't mean lacking strength.


Not running doesn't mean lacking legs. 
Does that mean not running is the best choice?



> Expecting forgiveness for particular actions, is just not being reasonable.


No one is expecting anything. We got it already, you don't understand the concept.



> Expecting people to find forgiveness of aforementioned actions as something ideal is not realistic.


As something ideal is not realistic.

As something ideal is not realistic.

As something ideal is not realistic.

:rofl


Seto Kaiba said:


> Eating isn't indicative of any moral virtue.


Moderation? 

Studiousness?

Ring a bell? 
Or whatever you have in your head instead of a brain? 



> It was always about it being unrealistic. More accurately, it was always about it completely violating the very moral themes Kishi wished to convey.






> You getting angry doesn't change my point. Sorry.


No. You change your point because you can't defend it.



> I am amazed at a number of people here that simply haven't taken the time to think about this. Really. If you did you'd know why people are reacting in disgust.


People are REACTING. You are REACTING.
And we didn't think about this?


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2014)

Bender said:


> Jesus fucking Christ you're thick.
> 
> Mei Terumi even pointed out how the Mizukage during the "bloody mist" was acting odd. Obito was behind it. The "Bloody mist" didn't preside before he entered the picture. It's when you say obnoxiously,and unbelievably dumb schtick that I don't feel any guilt about ridiculing you. :headshake



The tradition was around before Obito got crushed by the rocks . Madara was either pulling the strings or it is a continuity error.


----------



## ueharakk (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> He had within him the capacity for it. Which is why good ol' boy Obito become the monster he was as an adult. The fact that he for a brief moment in his life went back to his nature as a child still doesn't change that within him still was that capacity to return back as he was all the same...and he showed very clearly the damage he can do with that evil.


Since when does having the capacity to do something evil mean anything about the person you are?  I bet all the good guys in the manga have the capacity to become evil, but that doesn't mean anything.  



Seto Kaiba said:


> It is not my limit. It is the awareness that people have their limits.
> 
> It is the awareness that as it pertains to murder, particularly mass murder that limit is more often than not broken and because of that one such as Kishi should not expect people to sympathize with attempts to express forgiveness of such as being a good thing. Again, especially not to the extent Naruto expressed.


Im aware that some people have their limits as well.... yet I'm not going to state that there is some kind of actual limit of forgiveness that people can't surpass.  

The second paragraph is a different issue from the first, it's now about whether it is ethically right or wrong to forgive based on a certain limit, not whether it's possible to forgive.




Seto Kaiba said:


> Funny, my limited experience of humanity and reality...It's my understanding that people have their limits, regardless of my own. You are being hilariously ironic in saying so if *you are seriously trying to argue that the average person would forgive such things and find portrayals at forgiveness of such acts as something exemplary. *


This is pretty much attacking a strawman on your part.  The point is about whether a limit to forgiveness actually exists, and if it exists, has naruto gone beyond that limit.

The first line has nothing to do with that, sure you observe people having their own limits as well as you having your own.  From that, how would you conclude there is an actual limit, and if there is one, that Naruto is beyond that limit?  

Brother, when did I ever imply the bolded? I'd actually agree that Naruto's forgiveness radically differs from the average person put in his shoes, and people thinking naruto's forgiveness is exemplary is just irrelevant to what we are discussing: the existence of this limit and what it is.





Seto Kaiba said:


> Because MOST people is what matters when expressing theme?


Um no, Naruto is absolutely not suppose to be the reflection of what most people would do in his situation.  



Seto Kaiba said:


> MOST people are going to find mass murder the absolute most heinous crime one can do something unforgivable, and excuse my invocation but...Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, just to name a few...these people are considered monsters to this day that are completely unforgivable because of the atrocities they committed. You are not going to reasonably expect an attempt to portray forgiveness of such figures to be taken well, no matter how much regret is expressed for the actions.


Why does it even matter whether or not most people would be able to forgive a mass murderer or not?  Naruto is not suppose to be 'most people'.  And I bet you if these people you've mentioned truly changed themselves and spent the rest of their life trying to do good, in addition to having a tragic childhood in which they were manipulated into committing those monstrosities that people would be more forgiving towards them.   



Seto Kaiba said:


> He's a Gary Stu. He's not a representation of human potential, he's a messiah-esque figure with a slapped-on prophecy that will solve all the worlds ills not because of any display of critical thinking or ability to understand the root of problems, but just because. He doesn't uphold the highest ideals because for one he's quite selective about them, of course the story isn't going to point that out and what's more he said he couldn't forgive a person like Nagato so it really makes no sense that he would for one such as Obito.


That's just an assertion though.  As far as the narutoverse goes, he does hold the highest ideals, you've given no argument for him being selective of them, and Naruto did eventually forgive Nagato, he just couldn't do it at the time that he said 'i can't forgive you'. which is why he displays such a happy demeanor towards him.  The Naruto who forgave Obito has obviously come a long way 250 chapters after his fight with Nagato.



Seto Kaiba said:


> That is exactly what makes him unrelatable. On the contrary to many people he comes off as deranged and hypocritical, and I would have to agree with that assessment.


But that's again just an assertion.  I'm sure that 'many people' have many reasons for trying to bash naruto as an unrelatable character.  I'm sure there are many kinds of people who have all sorts of varying opinions about all different kinds of characters.   Anyone can poke and prod at any character and find faults in them.  That doesn't mean that his reasoning isn't sound and the events and what he got out of them up until this point in time don't make sense.



Seto Kaiba said:


> It's the attempt to express the moral theme of forgiveness through that event that is being under dispute, not the fact that the event occurred.


How is that some kind of response to what I've just typed?  I didn't argue that you said the event didn't occur, I argued that based on who Naruto is, it makes sense that he forgives Obito and evaluates him based on who he is rather than what he was.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Going for the stupid today I see. It's funny how this completely invalidates yours or anyone else's attempt to defend Naruto and Obito's matter. However, thankfully...I'm helping you out.
> 
> If that was the relatable aspect I'd cite it. You probably notice that I didn't. However, one can relate to the grief of losing loved ones. Especially over senseless actions like murder, and the ensuing anger and desire for vengeance that comes with it. In which case, it is more than anything the ability to move on, regardless of forgiveness, and not indulge oneself in the same kind of violence in retaliation that is the sign of strength here.


It is funny how you lack the ability to recognise when someone is calling you out for you cherry picking what aspects of a character the audience needs to relate to. 

A key theme in any story following a vigilante is self sacrifice. How many people can relate to dedicating their entire life, health and safety to society? It surpasses the average Joe's limitations, yet you saw fit to use Batman (an individual who has made countless sacrifices) as an example.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

LesExit said:


> (Edit...cut out something you wrote...but...ya)
> You ever think Kishi thinks that having the ability to forgive like Naruto, whether or not something most can do, is a very amazing thing to be able to do? The fact that I know I don't have enough strength to do this doesn't change the fact that it can be seen as a noble thing. Many people have forgiven others for doing absolutely fucked up things in the real world.



It isn't. Which is why even his own fans are going 'wtf' at him. Because unconsciously or consciously, they realize there is such a thing as taking it too far.

It doesn't mean coming to their defense and pretending like those atrocities never happened either. Which Naruto did.



> If you wan't to see it that way, that is your opinion. Don't try to label it as all those things and act as if it's objectively right just because you feel that way, cause others do feel different.



You guys have blinders on or something? You're scratching your heads at why people are so disgusted at this event, and I'm trying to tell you why that is the case. It is a very basic matter, but clearly one a lot have not taken the time to think about.


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## Bender (Jul 30, 2014)

Sailor Moon is a better representation of forgiveness. Moreover, the theme is more appropriate and it doesn't take place in the era where ninja work thrives. In other areas of fiction, Shinobi don't have a single one who is the epitome of "unconditional forgiveness and motivation to change the system". Read "Flame of Recca" even with the number of ninja who had a fucked up time with shinobi it was still a wholly satisfying closure for the ninja system and titular ninja. 

Moreover, the villain who engineered a lot of nasty shit didn't get off the hook and the heroes don't seek to find a way to have him redeemed (like Naruto does with most of his fights). It has a prophecy with the hero being the "Chosen One" however, even then he isn't dumbed down and loses the "Blood knight" traits and such ; he still stays the same and there's a nice twist. For Naruto series there isn't. It's a ball of shit.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Gunners said:


> It is funny how you lack the ability to recognise when someone is calling you out for you cherry picking what aspects of a character the audience needs to relate to.
> 
> A key theme in any story following a vigilante is self sacrifice. How many people can relate to dedicating their entire life, health and safety to society? It surpasses the average Joe's limitations, yet you saw fit to use Batman (an individual who has made countless sacrifices) as an example.



I recognize the attempt, but I also recognize that your attempt to call me out is idiotic. Because his aspect of vigilantism is part of the fantasy settings of the universe he is in. It's like trying to claim Luffy's love for his family wouldn't be relatable because he's a rubber man. Apples and oranges, but you couldn't even realize that before your piss-poor attempt. 

It's as stupid as the argument people make when they say a person should be bothered by the concept of ninjutsu when talking of how warped Kishi makes particular moral messages in the story. It's deliberately avoiding an aspect of the story which is invariably tied to reality. It just is a display of ignorance, or laziness. Which applies to you?


----------



## son_michael (Jul 30, 2014)

SharkBomb 4 said:


> Maybe people should just accept that this is the way Naruto as a character is. It's not like the other characters are unaware of what Obito has done.
> 
> 
> Black Zetsu tears into him pretty thoroughly here and Obito just accepts it since he knows how shitty he's been. Naruto, experienced Obito's memories and emotions before and he's also naturally someone that forgives very easily. That's just the kind of guy he is.



It's because he experienced Obito's feelings that he was able to reach out to him and save him.
Naruto's not the type of guy to forgive evil, Obito was already back to his true self when Naruto forgave him.

If Obito was a person who had no good in his heart then Naruto would have taken him out without remorse.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I recognize the attempt, but I also recognize that your attempt to call me out is idiotic. Because his aspect of vigilantism is part of the fantasy settings of the universe he is in. It's like trying to claim Luffy's love for his family wouldn't be relatable because he's a rubber man. Apples and oranges, but you couldn't even realize that before your piss-poor attempt.
> 
> It's as stupid as the argument people make when they say a person should be bothered by the concept of ninjutsu when talking of how warped Kishi makes particular moral messages in the story. It's deliberately avoiding an aspect of the story which is invariably tied to reality. It just is a display of ignorance, or laziness. Which applies to you?



I don't think you recognised the attempt and I think you are now trying to save face. Your initial response was off base, as you decided to focus on the _relatable aspects_ of Batman as opposed to hand-waving his inhumane dedication as a part of the fantasy world he lives in. 

It's a cheap attempt at a distinguishing factor, even by your standards. Batman's dedication is an important part of his character and it is a part most people could not relate to; the fact that it is a common element in his universe is not important.


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## Milliardo (Jul 30, 2014)

OodboO said:


> Yes, idiots like Jesus and Ghandi have no notion of self respect...


its funny you bring in religion because there would be no happy ending for someone like obito. he would go straight to hell.

see, your type of logic is very fucked up and flawed and heres why.

rape victims or people who were tortured near fucking death would have to forgive their wrongdoers according to your thinking or they are weak.

what about a person that continues to harm people on regular basis? he/she should be forgiven by yours and naruto's logic. what if somebody just beats the shit out of you for like 15 years or so straight but feels bad about it and buys you a cup of tea? you just forgive them? 

do see how little person would have to view themselves to actually do that bullshit? its like saying an abused house wife is a strong person because she forgives her husband. 

even if someone seeks redemption they don't get to decide whether they themselves deserve it regardless of their actions. the small good obito did does not overturn all the bad he did and he should have went straight to naruto hell. 

i'm glad i don't ever listen to people on this forum....


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## Bender (Jul 30, 2014)

I wonder if people will mourn me..if say I do some of this





It's akin to what Lolbito did.


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## Bender (Jul 30, 2014)

For one, Jesus is fictional and two lol you're comparing Naruto to both Jesus and Ghandi.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Gunners said:


> I don't think you recognised the attempt and I think you are now trying to save face. Your initial response was off base, as you decided to focus on the _relatable aspects_ of Batman as opposed to hand-waving his inhumane dedication as a part of the fantasy world he lives in.
> 
> It's a cheap attempt at a distinguishing factor, even by your standards. Batman's dedication is an important part of his character and it is a part most people could not relate to; the fact that it is a common element in his universe is not important.



Whatever you say. 

It doesn't make your attempt at a retort any less of a failure however. You are again going on that moronic logic. There are fantasy elements which fall under a concept called "suspension of disbelief" which if you took a lit class in high school you'd be aware of.

You would also be aware that there are those "human" aspects which can never be separated from reality. Such as the factors which relate to how people are able to connect with Bruce's grief over losing his parents, or Clark's feelings initially of being a stranger in a strange world, because these touch upon matters which reality can only define. Emotions, relationships and their nature, as well as matter of morality are invariably tied to reality. Your continuous attempt to avoid that again, shows either ignorance or laziness. 

It's *A* factor, even if it's not the distinguishing factor...I've discussed Batman before and pointed out his distinguishing traits, and what makes him a superhero icon; it really isn't my problem if you lack the competence to be made aware of the difference. The event in particular I cited was an example relating to matters of forgiveness, which obviously escaped you, and how despite him being unable to forgive he didn't indulge in his desire for revenge against his parents' killer.


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## LesExit (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> It isn't. Which is why even his own fans are going 'wtf' at him. Because unconsciously or consciously, they realize there is such a thing as taking it too far.
> 
> It doesn't mean coming to their defense and pretending like those atrocities never happened either. Which Naruto did.
> 
> ...


I wrote a response to this, but decided against it, cause I really don't want to debate this anymore. Might jump in later, but I think I'll just read responses for now


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## OodboO (Jul 30, 2014)

Milliardo said:


> its funny you bring in religion because there would be no happy ending for someone like obito. he would go straight to hell.


I'm bringing Jesus into this. Not religion. Religion is as retarded as you are.



> rape victims or people who whttp://s10.postimg.org/4wvhh8ys9/sh_progress_colour.pngere tortured near fucking death would have to forgive their wrongdoers according to your thinking or they are weak.


No.
I never said that. That is so wrong of a statement, it shows you don't understand what I am saying one damn bit.
Your reading comprehension is 0!




> what about a person that continues to harm people on regular basis? he/she should be forgiven by yours and naruto's logic. what if somebody just beats the shit out of you for like 15 years or so straight but feels bad about it and buys you a cup of tea? you just forgive them?


Again, you're puttin word in my mouth.  Ask you retard.
The answer is no.

From a place of strength comes forgiveness. Naruto had to defeat Obito. He had to submit his idiocy to put him in a place where he can forgive him.

A forgiveness of the weak is nothing short of hypocrisy.



> do see how little person would have to view themselves to actually do that bullshit? its like saying an abused house wife is a strong person because she forgives her husband.


No!
Forgiveness can't come from place of weakness. How many times have I said this?!

You fucking moron... 



> even if someone seeks redemption they don't get to decide whether they themselves deserve it regardless of their actions. the small good obito did does not overturn all the bad he did and he should have went straight to naruto hell.


He doesn't get to decide to deserve redemption!?
Obito agreed with Zetsu. Now your small minded resentment is putting words in Kishi's mouth. 



> i'm glad i don't ever listen to people on this forum...


Are you also glad you never read?


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Jesus believed in a concept of hell, and that people went and were going there....


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## Gunners (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Whatever you say.
> 
> It doesn't make your attempt at a retort any less of a failure however. You are again going on that moronic logic. There are fantasy elements which fall under a concept called "suspension of disbelief" which if you took a lit class in high school you'd be aware of.
> 
> ...



All I see is more cherry picking. What disqualifies _dedication_ as a human aspect which should never be separated from reality? Your personal belief that individuals should suspend their belief on that part? Or, is there an exhaustive list detailing each of the areas that individuals should suspend their belief on? Is there an objective and recognised guideline on how it should be applied? Or is it all just subjective?


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Gunners said:


> All I see is more cherry picking. What disqualifies _dedication_ as a human aspect which should never be separated from reality? Your personal belief that individuals should suspend their belief on that part? Or, is there an exhaustive list detailing each of the areas that individuals should suspend their belief on? Is there an objective and recognised guideline on how it should be applied? Or is it all just subjective?



His vigilantism is the fantasy aspect, specifically his vigilantism to the degree of which he can perform it. I pointed this out clearly, but you seem to be having a hard time here. 

You usually catch on faster than this.


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## son_michael (Jul 30, 2014)

Milliardo said:


> its funny you bring in religion because there would be no happy ending for someone like obito. he would go straight to hell.
> 
> see, your type of logic is very fucked up and flawed and heres why.
> 
> ...



We know that Obito started off at the top of the truth and justice scale so therefore we know he's not inherently evil.We know that Obito had his world turned upside down and he was corrupted by both a puppeteer and betrayed by a person/village/system that he believed in.

Most people should be able to sympathize with his sudden change in personality and mentality, especially when Kishi flat out told us that the Uchiha are cursed and they lose it when their emotions of love etc go out of control.

So the truth is that Obito was a great person on the side of goodness but then he got lost in darkness. There is absolutely nothing wrong with forgiving him.the problem here is that people are angry for another's forgiveness...that's just messed up.

This also can't be compared to real life because lets face it, you look at an individual with a bad look on your face and right away you're an enemy. People don't forgive easily in the real world but if you could forgive your mom for beating you or your dad for drinking or your friend for stealing from you etc. You would be a much happier individual for it.That's not to say anybody can do anything and expect forgiveness, it's to say that at a certain point in their lives where they actually have changed, It's probably a good idea to forgive them.

Going back to Obito. Naruto made him see the truth and change back to the person he used to be, why wouldn't he be upset that a life he saved would be coming to an end?
If you'd like, check out my youtube video on Obito's death in my signature for more about this concept of forgiveness.


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## ShadowReij (Jul 30, 2014)

Gunners said:


> Batman.
> 
> A character who has billions but spends most of his days risking his life by jumping into situations above his station. Yeah, that's something the common folk can relate to.
> 
> Also did Naruto actually forgive Obito? I noticed you mentioned he never forgave Nagato, but when I think about things his treatment of Obito is similar to his treatment of Nagato: individuals whom he holds in high regard in spite of their misdeeds.


Because fuck it if I have billions of dollars of course I'm going to spend it buying costume themed gadgets and cars to fight crime with. 

And you're right it isn't like he forgave Obito. He does however acknowledge his efforts.


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## OodboO (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Jesus believed in a concept of hell, and that people went and were going there....



Please preach on sistah'. 

It's all about the details. Did he also have a wife? 

Did he eat pork?


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Well there is valid argument to be had that yes, Jesus had a wife in Mary Magdalene. The Bible that is read excludes a number of books after all, which seems to allude to that. Also, he himself dismissed Kosher.


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## Gunners (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> His vigilantism is the fantasy aspect, specifically his vigilantism to the degree of which he can perform it. I pointed this out clearly, but you seem to be having a hard time here.
> 
> You usually catch on faster than this.



You didn't point it out, you made a bold claim that you've yet to back up with anything more than just your... claim. Repeating the sentence over and over again will not change the fact that you arbitrarily placed key aspects of stories, following the life of a vigilante, under the umbrella, which sees individuals suspending their disbelief, in order to stave off criticism on how those traits relate to the common man.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Gunners said:


> You didn't point it out, you made a bold claim that you've yet to back up with anything more than just your... claim. Repeating the sentence over and over again will not change the fact that you arbitrarily placed key aspects of stories, following the life of a vigilante, under the umbrella, which sees individuals suspending their disbelief, in order to stave off criticism on how those traits relate to the common man.



You are really being thick today. I was saying that one story is a relatable example. Not the whole package. His acts of vigilantism, in spite of claims are borderline superhuman if not blatantly so; his ridiculously advanced gadgetry, ability to keep up with the pace of superhumans, and the fact that he learned so many different fields of science and martial arts in a very small period of time, and be a master of them all at that are those matters that do fall squarely in suspension of disbelief. 

His love for his parents, and grief in losing them however is something that is undeniably human. It is something invariably tied to reality. His desire to avenge their deaths is undeniably human, and I was citing a story relating to that and how he did not forgive his killer as an example of how one can not forgive such an individual but still have strength in not indulging in revenge against that person. Because such things are more in line with how people would react to losing a loved one. It is what many people do more often than not in response to it, when they don't give in to desires for revenge.

OK...since you are obviously having a difficult time. Batman hates the Joker, he loathes him but just because he doesn't kill him doesn't mean he forgives him in sparing him. Do you get what I'm saying or do you need a picture book or something?


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## Milliardo (Jul 30, 2014)

son_michael said:


> We know that Obito started off at the top of the truth and justice scale so therefore we know he's not inherently evil.
> 
> We know that Obito had his worl turned upside down and he was corrupted by both a puppeteer and betrayed by a person/village/system that he believed in.
> 
> ...


notice how you mention that it can't be compared to real life. this points to me that you think its wrong but you don't want to say that here on this forum. if it can't be compared to real life then how can it be  viewed as a good thing?  people usually use that when they know it would be fucked up in real life and i believe you know that.

i don't care about obito being good or evil. he still killed a fuck ton of people. there is no excuse for that no matter how kishi spins it. i'm a sasuke fan and i will tell you that sasuke should be punished for his crimes were i to be truthful. its the same for obito but in death he wasn't punished but given happiness. 

people don't have to forgive somebody to get over their problem with the person who wronged them. this is flawed thinking on your part. its actually fucked up to think someone has to forgive the people who harmed them to be happy. this goes back to thinking little of oneself. 


i hope like hell you don't actually believe this bs and from your post it sounds like you don't or there is at least a little doubt. this message is fucked up and shouldn't be past to little kids because some might actually believe it. hell, look around people here think its good or the right thing to do.


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## Gunners (Jul 30, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> You are really being thick today. I was saying that one story is a relatable example. Not the whole package. His acts of vigilantism, in spite of claims are borderline superhuman if not blatantly so; his ridiculously advanced gadgetry, ability to keep up with the pace of superhumans, and the fact that he learned so many different fields of science and martial arts in a very small period of time, and be a master of them all at that are those matters that do fall squarely in suspension of disbelief.
> 
> His love for his parents, and grief in losing them however is something that is undeniably human. It is something invariably tied to reality. His desire to avenge their deaths is undeniably human, and I was citing a story relating to that and how he did not forgive his killer as an example of how one can not forgive such an individual but still have strength in not indulging in revenge against that person. Because such things are more in line with how people would react to losing a loved one. It is what many people do more often than not in response to it, when they don't give in to desires for revenge.
> 
> OK...since you are obviously having a difficult time. Batman hates the Joker, he loathes him but just because he doesn't kill him doesn't mean he forgives him in sparing him. Do you get what I'm saying or do you need a picture book or something?


''You're being thick today" are words are that come out of your mouth quite often when speaking to people on this forum. Have you ever considered the possibility of you being insufferably stubborn? 

You can cite as many traits of Batman that the average Joe can relate to, it will not change the fact that his stories involve important traits and themes the average Joe cannot relate to, such as his dedication to fighting crime. 

At the root of it all (I noticed your attempt to steer the conversation from this direction by focusing on examples and conclusions that are no longer relevant) it boils down to you cherrypicking what themes the reader should and should not be able to identify with.

Anyways, I'm done. Going to watch Captain America, a film involving an individual with courage I cannot relate to .


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 30, 2014)

Gunners said:


> ''You're being thick today" are words are that come out of your mouth quite often when speaking to people on this forum. Have you ever considered the possibility of you being insufferably stubborn?



Perhaps, but you are hard at grasping basic matters on this.



> You can cite as many traits of Batman that the average Joe can relate to, it will not change the fact that his stories involve important traits and themes the average Joe cannot relate to, such as his dedication to fighting crime.



Like this for example. I CAN cite many traits. Do you know why? Because he is a character that like any fleshed out character has many traits to him. It's like you haven't even gotten past high school literature here. 



> At the root of it all (I noticed your attempt to steer the conversation from this direction by focusing on examples and conclusions that are no longer relevant) it boils down to you cherrypicking what themes the reader should and should not be able to identify with.



This is why I called you thick. No, at the root of it all is that there are things that fall under suspension of disbelief and those that do not. Because the former are dependent on the laws of nature in the resident universe, and the latter are only traits that can only be defined through reality; again, those "human" traits. Batman's ability to perform vigilantism at near superhuman levels are those of the suspension of disbelief. The underlying motivations which drove him to that point, that being the grief over the death of his parents, and the desire for justice against those that took them away are invariably human. The fact that you can't wrap your head around this is what highlights your failure.



> Anyways, I'm done. Going to watch Captain America, a film involving an individual with courage I cannot relate to .



Just moronic that you think this is clever...it only highlights my point.


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## son_michael (Jul 30, 2014)

Milliardo said:


> notice how you mention that it can't be compared to real life. this points to me that you think its wrong but you don't want to say that here on this forum. if it can't be compared to real life then how can it be  viewed as a good thing?  people usually use that when they know it would be fucked up in real life and i believe you know that.



Of course what Obito did was wrong, flat out evil but the narrative of the story shows us legit reasons why he became the way he did and why Naruto was able to save him(because of their similarities and because he felt the true good in him with his ninshu perception or w/e it is.)

However in real life you don't usually know why evil acts are committed, you don't know if there's a sobstory behind them or if the person is generally born a wicked individual.  Therefore it's almost unthinkable to forgive such heinous crimes in real life, save if you were God himself and knew the state of the persons heart and mind, and clearly Kishi is making Naruto out to be this messianic figure.




> i don't care about obito being good or evil. he still killed a fuck ton of people. there is no excuse for that no matter how kishi spins it. i'm a sasuke fan and i will tell you that sasuke should be punished for his crimes were i to be truthful. its the same for obito but in death he wasn't punished but given happiness.



You could kill a ton of people in your life and never really get why you did it. It may be because you were a soldier or because you felt the world was your entire enemy or w//e the reason is. Those are all evil acts but what you don't seem to understand is every individual is capable of doing either good or evil acts. While it's true that our actions define us, it's not so simple as to say that because you committed evil acts that you are forever an evil person. 

What if a man was raised on the streets with drugs,prostitutes and gang violence. this man kills a woman for her purse and shoots a guy in the head for lying to him or w/e. Fast forward, this guy somehow got saved by an individual, he was given a place to stay and got help, now he has married and loves his children, can't even begin to think of how he used to live. Does such a man deserve to die because of the evil he committed in the past? If he truly was repentant and a changed man, is it so impossible to forgive him?



> people don't have to forgive somebody to get over their problem with the person who wronged them. this is flawed thinking on your part. its actually fucked up to think someone has to forgive the people who harmed them to be happy. this goes back to thinking little of oneself.



I said it's probably a good idea to forgive them because it makes you feel a whole lot better, nobody should be forced to forgive if they don't want to.


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## Milliardo (Jul 31, 2014)

son_michael said:


> Of course what Obito did was wrong, flat out evil but the narrative of the story shows us legit reasons why he became the way he did and why Naruto was able to save him(because of their similarities and because he felt the true good in him with his ninshu perception or w/e it is.)
> 
> However in real life you don't usually know why evil acts are committed, you don't know if there's a sobstory behind them or if the person is generally born a wicked individual.  Therefore it's almost unthinkable to forgive such heinous crimes in real life, save if you were God himself and knew the state of the persons heart and mind, and clearly Kishi is making Naruto out to be this messianic figure.


i get naruto is being portrayed as a holy person who will forgive anybody no matter what. what i don't get is why people around here actually think that is ok. a crime is a crime and if people commit crimes they usually pay for them. it doesn't matter if they had a sad life like their dog died or their girlfriend died or even their family died. nothing overturns that not even if they saved someone else's dog, girlfriend, or family. it doesn't matter if they feel wrong for what they did hell most people do. obito didn't get a terrible death like itachi said he got a hero's death and for what? saving a few people from a scenario in which his actions from the start of this war lead to? yea, that poor man...





> You could kill a ton of people in your life and never really get why you did it. It may be because you were a soldier or because you felt the world was your entire enemy or w//e the reason is. Those are all evil acts but what you don't seem to understand is every individual is capable of doing either good or evil acts. While it's true that our actions define us, it's not so simple as to say that because you committed evil acts that you are forever an evil person.


i understand a person can change but that doesn't mean all their crimes go away. nor should they be viewed in a good light after a few hours of changing themselves. there are levels of forgiveness and there is a point of no return. from stealing someone's purse or wallet to killing someone in self defense or accidentally even but obito's level is far beyond any of that. killing one person is a big deal because you take away all that person could have done in their life span. obito has killed thousands for a fucked up twisted plan that would have killed even more. he could never make up for that even if he lived several life spans. he doesn't deserve to get a happy ending.





> What if a man was raised on the streets with drugs,prostitutes and gang violence. this man kills a woman for her purse and shoots a guy in the head for lying to him or w/e. Fast forward, this guy somehow got saved by an individual, he was given a place to stay and got help, now he has married and loves his children, can't even begin to think of how he used to live. Does such a man deserve to die because of the evil he committed in the past? If he truly was repentant and a changed man, is it so impossible to forgive him?


 well you are asking me so i will give you my opinion then.  it sounds like to me this guy got off scott free of murdering two people. he has a bad past and unfortunately didn't get help before killing people. i think he should go to prison and serve time. according to the story though instead he is happy living out his life with his family lucky bastard he must be. 




> I said it's probably a good idea to forgive them because it makes you feel a whole lot better, nobody should be forced to forgive if they don't want to.


well you don't have to forgive somebody to live happy. if anything i hope to get that across.


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## ch1p (Jul 31, 2014)

I'm repeating this, because everyone is focusing on the wrong kind of debacle.

This has nothing to do with IRL morals aren't reflected in the manga. It's fiction, please deal with the fact that it's fiction and get over it. It's not about how far Kishi takes his moral lessons either, because if he wants to highlight forgiveness is a good thing then he should do that no matter what and its importnt that he shows situations such as this because otherwise the message is hollow as the main character really didn't do what he preached (Harry Potter is guilty of this). Naruto doesn't need to be relatable as a character. For all due intents, at this point, he's a role model. Like people look at religious leaders and whatnot. His capacity to steamroll the curse of hatred is inspiring. At least to me, it always was. I've always felt it was naive and that the ending would reflect this naiveness, but even so be able to break hatred is a nice thing to aspire to. In this, there is no problem, and people who do otherwise are just reflecting their own morals upon this work and others.

This manga has themes of forgiveness, redemption and second chances. If Naruto wants to forgive Nagato and Obito, that's his decision. I personally wouldn't, but I'm not him. I won't judge him badly for forgiving this lot either. However, I don't think Naruto forgave either of them, as that's not what's in the text either. WHat's in the text is that Naruto can't forgive them, but he won't pursue the cycle of hatred and they must atone for their sins. Nagato did it by ressurrecting everyone and Obito did it by helping them out now. Is the price 'too little'? That is irrelevant. The loss that was done before CAN NEVER be outdone. What matters is that they repent for their bad deeds and do so until the last day of their lives. This, they both have done. Naruto can "forgive" (whatever that means, because I don't think he did this, as he specifically tells Nagato that he cannot forgive him) whatever he feels like. And the rest can always have a chance for atonement, if they may so want to. In this, Kishi has delivered. There isn't a problem here either.

The problem here isn't forgiveness or atonement, because there wasn't actually any forgiveness and the atonement was not skipped (while Nagato and Obito atoned for only moments, Kakashi and Gaara are atoning for years). The problem here is that Naruto *white washes* these people and that is truly bad, because this cannot ressonate with anything. He's not forgiving them and he's not absolving them either, he's pretending the bulshit was never there. Zetsu was talking about the wrong doings of Obito. Naruto should have acknowledged he did these bad deeds, and should have countered there was good in him too. That would be of no problem. Instead, Naruto choses to say that Obito is 'the coolest' or 'the most awesome', selective picking the good (when he was a child and his last moments) and brushing off the bad deeds as irrelevant (about half of his life). And this is the problem. He should have acknowledged both, because both exist. Kakashi and Sakura did it, and that's fair. By not doing the same Naruto comes across as extremely demented. This is because this is simply unheard of. Not even the paragons of virtue would white wash like this.

Naruto's character... Naruto never white washed Zabuza or Gaara, for example. Even Sasuke, at VotE, had Naruto going 'how are we friends' and questioning everything even though he still wanted to be friends. And while highly idealistic, that's still acceptable, because Naruto is acknowledging both sides of the issue: the good and the bad. However, he white-washed Nagato and Obito and that is truly atrocious, because that simply has no explanation and no equivalent even amidst the paragons of virtue. Naruto's just as bad as someone who only sees the bad deeds of someone. I really, really hope that Kishi has something prepared, because this is no hero. This is someone who is completely detached from reality. Furthermore, Naruto may forgive people if he'd like, but he shouldn't be lording HIS MORALS on others either. He's not a priest, or god, or a religious figure. He's a kid who wants to be ninja president. And even if he was any of those things, its still the individual's choice to accept what he says or not. He's not dictating morality nor should he.

To me its clear why Naruto does it. Naruto lost his relevance in part 2 and Kishi cooked up the chosen one, the messiah bulshit storyline to compensate and to make him more speshul than anyone else. And with that comes this white washing of the bad, which didn't happen before.



OodboO said:


> Yes, idiots like Jesus and Ghandi have no notion of self respect...



Do not go there. Jesus is god's son, who came to this world on a mission, he's nothing equivalent to Naruto. Ghandi advocated nonviolent resistance while Naruto beats up people who don't agree with him until they do.



SharkBomb 4 said:


> Black Zetsu tears into him pretty thoroughly here and Obito just accepts it since he knows how shitty he's been. Naruto, experienced Obito's memories and emotions before and he's also naturally someone that forgives very easily. That's just the kind of guy he is.



Obito was already dead at this point. Naruto is getting rightous for his own benefit, not Obito's.


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## TH4N4T0S (Jul 31, 2014)

You people have to clarify your definitions of "forgiveness" first. Does it mean absolving a wrongdoer of responsibility, or letting go of one's resentment toward the wrongdoer? My understanding is it's the latter, and I think it goes without saying that the former is foolish, while the latter is something worth striving for. It's apparent that forgiveness for the sake of one's own freedom from hatred (which leads to understanding) is also the type of forgiveness Kishimoto is writing about.

However, there is the question of whether his presentation of this ideal is successful. The answer, as far as I'm concerned, is 'no', for the simple reason that Naruto's acts of forgiveness often occur too quickly after the crime. I imagine that even Buddha, assuming he was a mentally normal human being, would take time to recompose himself after a sworn enemy killed thousands of his comrades, not to mention his parents and many other people.

In Obito's case, this problem could have been solved by the presence of opportunities for Naruto to really know and eventually befriend him, or by any realistic factor convincingly triggering an act of forgiveness by Naruto or a new sense of respect in him for Obito. At any rate, such solutions normally involve considerable spans of time.

Say, if there had been a timeskip where Obito is shown to fight alongside Naruto, have mundane conversations with Naruto on their interests and romantic failures, share simple meals with him, conduct missions with him as partners or teammates, reach the final stage of the war on the side of the Allied Shinobi Forces, and finally sacrifice himself for Naruto, who by now has become his longtime friend and comrade-in-arms, then the idea of Naruto forgiving him or seeing him as an awesome person wouldn't be so bizarre, would it?

Kishimoto's writing seems to have miserably failed. Sure, it's shounen, but better writing wouldn't strip it of its shounen characteristics, would it? Better, more emotionally realistic and engaging writing is all I'm asking for. It's just regretful that the quality of this manga never really saw a consistent upward trend since part I. 

But all is well. There are always other pieces of literature out there.


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## Deleted member 375 (Jul 31, 2014)

That statement made me smile but it really wasn't a good smile

It was a "this is kinda awkward" type smile.

edit: was simply making my reply out to the first page discussion - didn't mean to ruin the full on discussion this thread has shockingly conjured up here on the 20th something page .


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## OodboO (Jul 31, 2014)

ch1p said:


> This has nothing to do with IRL morals aren't reflected in the manga.






> Do not go there. Jesus is god's son, who came to this world on a mission, he's nothing equivalent to Naruto. Ghandi advocated nonviolent resistance while Naruto beats up people who don't agree with him until they do.


It's no wonder Gandhi loved Jesus but hated Christians. You people mock Jesus to say the least! 



> If Naruto wants to forgive Nagato and Obito, that's his decision. I personally wouldn't, but I'm not him.


A Christian everyone! 



> Naruto white washes these people and that is truly bad, because this cannot ressonate with anything. He's not forgiving them and he's not absolving them either, he's pretending the bulshit was never there.


Is that YOUR interpretation miss religion? 



> Naruto should have acknowledged he did these bad deeds, and should have countered there was good in him too. That would be of no problem.


Naruto did acknowledge Obito's bad. He did that for chapters on end. After that he acknowledged his good.
What the hell are you on about?

He forgave and addressed the good. You're just normally resentful and expect Naruto to be like you, to keep harping on the bad, because nothing else makes sense to you.



> Even Sasuke, at VotE, had Naruto going 'how are we friends' and questioning everything even though he still wanted to be friends. And while highly idealistic, that's still acceptable, because Naruto is acknowledging both sides of the issue: the good and the bad.



The reason Naruto is still stuck on Sasuke's bad is not because "he's more normal in this case". He is still on it because Sasuke never accepted Naruto's words as true like Obito did. Sasuke never asked for atonement, never acknowledged his mistakes. Naruto rewards atonement with love. He isn't petty like you expect him to be. And Sasuke will get that same love Obito did if he ever accepts Naruto's hand in friendship.



> Obito was already dead at this point. Naruto is getting rightous for his own benefit, not Obito's.



Because God forbid there is selfless kindness in the world. That would make YOU feel smaller wouldn't it?


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## ch1p (Jul 31, 2014)

OodboO said:


>



Oh, this has to fit with IRL morals? Yeah, that seems legit. Tell me how. 



> It's no wonder Gandhi loved Jesus but hated Christians. You people mock Jesus to say the least!



*WHAT.*



> A Christian everyone!



*WHAT.*



> Is that YOUR interpretation miss religion?



*WHAT.*



> Naruto did acknowledge Obito's bad. He did that for chapters on end. After that he acknowledged his good. What the hell are you on about?



Of this chapter. How he didn't acknowledge it in the face of Zetsu's accusations.



> He forgave and addressed the good.



Where did Naruto forgive Nagato and Obito? Show me the panel.



> You're just normally resentful and expect Naruto to be like you, to keep harping on the bad, because nothing else makes sense to you.



Actually, I wouldn't have minded if Naruto forgave. My problem isn't that he forgives or cried for him or wanted to save him or even that he called him the coolest. I have said this, repeatedly. That I'm fine with him doing all this things. In fact, I called it inspirational, even if naive, but inspirational nonetheless. *The problem I have is that Naruto white washed him, it refused to acknowledge the bad things he has done in the face of being told the reality of things.*



> The reason Naruto is still stuck on Sasuke's bad is not because "he's more normal in this case". He is still on it because Sasuke never accepted Naruto's words as true like Obito did. Sasuke never asked for atonement, never acknowledged his mistakes. Naruto rewards atonement with love. He isn't petty like you expect him to be. And Sasuke will get that same love Obito did if he ever accepts Naruto's hand in friendship.



I'm sorry, but I've got no problem with Naruto forgiving people. I actually think its very inspiring and I've condemned people who have attempted to draw lines of morality. Perhaps you should read what I wrote again and then answer properly.



> Because God forbid there is selfless kindness in the world. That would make YOU feel smaller wouldn't it?


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## OodboO (Jul 31, 2014)

It's pretty frickin simple in your case Ch1p. The idea that someone can love and forgive on that level makes you feel like a lesser human being. So your natural inclination is to put that person down. To imply there is something wrong with them just to validate your own pathetic existence. 
You are the very type of person who put Jesus on a cross. No wonder you Christians worship that lovely torturing device.


Same thing happens with any person who rises above the average. The evil and petty assholes among the average people resent them.



> Where did Naruto forgive Nagato and Obito? Show me the panel.


I was talking about Naruto and Obito, but it does go for most of Naruto's opponents. Naruto doesn't explicitly state his forgiveness. He show it in his treatment of the person he has forgiven.


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## ch1p (Jul 31, 2014)

OodboO said:


> It's pretty frickin simple in your case Ch1p. The idea that someone can love and forgive on that level makes you feel like a lesser human being. So your natural inclination is to put that person down. To imply there is something wrong with them just to validate your own pathetic existence.



I really would advise you to read my post again, unless you are trolling for a reaction.

I've said *repeatedly*, that I'm fine with Naruto forgiving people at this level. I've said *repeatedly*, that I find that kind of thing inspiring. I've said *repeatedly*, that people who attempt to draw lines about this matter are wrong.

What I've said that my problem is, *repeatedly*, is that Naruto white-washed Obito. It's fine to forgive and to love, but it's not fine to forget and pretend things never happened.



> You are the very type of person who put Jesus on a cross. No wonder you Christians worship that lovely torturing device.



You're just lashing out now. 



> Same thing happens with any person who rises above the average. The evil and petty assholes among the average people resent them.



I don't resent Naruto for forgiving Obito.



> I was talking about Naruto and Obito, but it does go for most of Naruto's opponents. Naruto doesn't explicitly state his forgiveness. He show it in his treatment of the person he has forgiven.



Actually, that's a lie. Naruto hasn't forgiven Obito or Nagato explicitly. I don't give a shit about wahtever fanfic you're writing for it to implicit. In fact, I don't even care! As I've said, *I'm fine with this level of forgiveness, contrarily to what you say.* My problem is another thing altogether: the white-washing.


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## OodboO (Jul 31, 2014)

ch1p said:


> It's fine to forgive and to love, but it's not fine to forget and pretend things never happened.


And I'm saying you're pretending Naruto is a retard who chooses to forget because you don't understand what forgiveness is. You have to make what you see out to be something wrong because you know you can't do it, but still feel the need to put yourself on a pedestal by implying your version of love and forgiveness is out there and better. You need to let everyone know you are better than Naruto. 

Like I *repeatedly* said, what you see, makes you uncomfortable. People like Naruto make you feel uncomfortable.




> You're just lashing out now.


Call what you will if it makes you feel better, it's still the truth.



> I don't resent Naruto for forgiving Obito.


Bullshit. 





> Actually, that's a lie. Naruto hasn't forgiven Obito or Nagato explicitly. I don't give a shit about wahtever fanfic you're writing for it to implicit. In fact, I don't even care! As I've said, *I'm fine with this level of forgiveness, contrarily to what you say.* My problem is another thing altogether: the white-washing.


If you were fine with this level of forgiveness you wouldn't be so indignant and intellectually dishonest to call it white washing.


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## ch1p (Jul 31, 2014)

OodboO said:


> And I'm saying you're pretending Naruto is a retard who chooses to forget because you don't understand what forgiveness is. You have to make what you see out to be something wrong because you know you can't do it, but still feel the need to put yourself on a pedestal by implying your version of love and forgiveness is out there and better. You need to let everyone know you are better than Naruto. Like I *repeatedly* said, what you see, makes you uncomfortable. People like Naruto make you feel uncomfortable.



My version of love and forgiveness is neither better nor worse, and I've got no idea how you're taking this dumbass conclusions of yours. My problem isn't love and forgiveness. My problem is the white-washing. They're not the same thing.



> Call what you will if it makes you feel better, it's still the truth. Bullshit.



You're saying that, but you've only lashed out this personally because I negged. 



> If you were fine with this level of forgiveness you wouldn't be so indignant and intellectually dishonest to call it white washing.



I'm that indignant? When I've defended Naruto crying and not being able to let go as natural, that it shouldn't be bashed? Sweetie, love yourself.


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## OodboO (Jul 31, 2014)

ch1p said:


> My version of love and forgiveness is neither better nor worse, and I've got no idea how you're taking this dumbass conclusions of yours. My problem isn't love and forgiveness. My problem is the white-washing. They're not the same thing.


White washing -pretending it never happened.
Forgiveness - Giving someone a second chance and humbly accepting they are only human. Learning to love selflessly.
YOUR forgiveness - Acting like a petty indignant asshole while telling someone you forgive them.

Disgusting. 




> You're saying that, but you've only lashed out this personally because I negged.


Like I said, whatever makes you feel better. It doesn't make me wrong though.  



> I'm that indignant? When I've defended Naruto crying and not being able to let go as natural, that it shouldn't be bashed? Sweetie, love yourself.


Naruto crying means he must love Obito so much he needs him? 
He couldn't be crying over crushed potential, youth, love, bravery, kindness that once made Obito? He couldn't be crying about the continuous cycle of hatred that perpetuates more pain without end in sight? He couldn't be crying about utter destruction of a human being and their weakness before the forces of life when left on their own? He couldn't be crying over himself?

No, he must be crying because he is in an abusive relationship with Obito. 

Naruto is an easy read, but I think you should drop your standard even more. Have you considered gossip columns? At least we can see you were able to grasp articles about Rihanna and that boyfriend of hers.


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## ch1p (Jul 31, 2014)

OodboO said:


> White washing -pretending it never happened.
> Forgiveness - Giving someone a second chance and humbly accepting they are only human. Learning to love selflessly.



They're not the same thing, not even by your own definition.



> YOUR forgiveness - Acting like a petty indignant asshole while telling someone you forgive them.



Not really. I'm advocating that people can be as nice as they'd like, just not white wash them.



> Disgusting.



You have some personal issue with me that I don't care to explore.



> Like I said, whatever makes you feel better. It doesn't make me wrong though.



What makes you wrong is that you don't even read other people's posts. 



> Naruto crying means he must love Obito so much he needs him?  He couldn't be crying over crushed potential, youth, love, bravery, kindness that once made Obito? He couldn't be crying about the continuous cycle of hatred that perpetuates more pain without end in sight? He couldn't be crying about utter destruction of a human being and their weakness before the forces of life when left on their own? He couldn't be crying over himself?



Naruto can be crying for whatever reason he would like. I don't mind that Naruto is crying.



> No, he must be crying because he is in an abusive relationship with Obito.  Naruto is an easy read, but I think you should drop your standard even more. Have you considered gossip columns? At least we can see you were able to grasp articles about Rihanna and that boyfriend of hers.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 31, 2014)

> It's fiction, please deal with the fact that it's fiction and get over it.



This can never be explained briefly, because I think it's something you only understand by stopping to think about how an author connects to his audience:

Everyone knows it's fiction, everyone realizes when they see a movie or read a book or a comic that it is fiction. However, that does *nothing* to explain _why_ so many people become disgusted at events like this. Using "it's fiction" also completely contradicts Kishi himself in this specific matter, as any other author that has similar intentions in mind, whom desire to convey a lesson of morality to the audience. Haven't you ever stopped to consider why is it people unconsciously react negatively to things like this in a story, as in matters of moral disgust or discomfort? 

You have to, and you begin to, understand that because the concepts it touches upon cannot be separated from real life. It doesn't matter what medium the concepts are presented through. If that is the excuse people are going to use, then there should never be an attempt to convey a moral lesson at all then. If you have to use that excuse, then you are basically admitting that the story is unable to connect that moral lesson or theme with the reader, and resonate with their own sense of it. 

When you see a person in grief, many times it elicits sympathy. Regardless of whether the event is in fiction or reality for example, such as how people can be driven to tears when reading a story or watching a movie, or seeing a truly emotionally trying event as it actually occurs. It is because that author is able to connect to the reader's own sense of emotions as they exist, out of an understanding from basis in reality on what elicits those feelings.

When an audience sees a couple doing things considered ideal for a couple to do, they generally root for the characters and grow fond of the relationship exactly because it touches upon those existing ideals of the matter. It resonates with people on it. 

When people see, a successful portrayal of forgiveness and redemption they are moved by the display; just as they would if it was actually occurring, because the former is able to connect to the audience the same way such actual displays would because it is based on understanding of what makes that connection in life. 

"IT'S FICTION" missed the point entirely. It is often and can be about particular matters of which suspension of disbelief are applied but fiction is at the same time, such as with this story it is also about a desire of being able to connect emotionally and often morally, to the reader as well. In which case the only reference that can be pulled from is reality.


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## OodboO (Jul 31, 2014)

ch1p said:


> _*They're not the same thing*_, not even by your own definition.


Of course! 
I JUST distinguished them! 






> Not really.


Oh, well if you say so... 





> I'm advocating that people can be as nice as they'd like, just not white wash them.


It's like talking to a wall. 

Also nice? 
You think this is about niceness? 



> You have some personal issue with me that I don't care to explore.


Yeah I do have a personal issue with you. 



> Naruto can be crying for whatever reason he would like. I don't mind that Naruto is crying.



You just brought his tears up as a part of your retarded point!


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## overlordofnobodies (Jul 31, 2014)

ch1p said:


> I'm repeating this, because everyone is focusing on the wrong kind of debacle.
> 
> This has nothing to do with IRL morals aren't reflected in the manga. It's fiction, please deal with the fact that it's fiction and get over it. It's not about how far Kishi takes his moral lessons either, because if he wants to highlight forgiveness is a good thing then he should do that no matter what and its importnt that he shows situations such as this because otherwise the message is hollow as the main character really didn't do what he preached (Harry Potter is guilty of this). Naruto doesn't need to be relatable as a character. For all due intents, at this point, he's a role model. Like people look at religious leaders and whatnot. His capacity to steamroll the curse of hatred is inspiring. At least to me, it always was. I've always felt it was naive and that the ending would reflect this naiveness, but even so be able to break hatred is a nice thing to aspire to. In this, there is no problem, and people who do otherwise are just reflecting their own morals upon this work and others.
> 
> ...



I have to thank you for making this post. I never like how Naruto can so easy forgive people but do to your post I relics it was not the forgives but the forget I dont like so much.  You all so hit so many other thing I dont like Naruto or Kishi writing as well.


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## Itachі (Jul 31, 2014)

I agree with what Seto said. "It's fiction" is used as an excuse for too much bullshit. Not saying that Ch1p did, I wasn't following their debate.


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## ch1p (Jul 31, 2014)

OodboO said:


> Of course!
> I JUST distinguished them!
> 
> 
> ...



You need a chill pill.


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## OodboO (Jul 31, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> That edit though.
> 
> Anyway, calm down and keep the personal insults to a minimum.



I'm not insulting for the sake of insulting. I'm simply describing what I see. 
Though I know it's silly to say I'm calm since you won't believe me anyway.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 31, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> I agree with what Seto said. "It's fiction" is used as an excuse for too much bullshit. Not saying that Ch1p did, I wasn't following their debate.



Ah well true enough, it is something used too often, but it is always misapplied. Like if someone says "BREATHING FIRE, PEOPLE CAN'T DO THAT!" then yes pointing out that its fiction is valid to state. As I was attempting to point out to Gunners in futility, there exists in a story often laws of nature but regardless of that there are things which are as I can describe "intrinsically human". I've made plenty case for the latter in my previous post so I don't have the need to do it again.

To be honest when I had first saw such excuses I was more than a little shocked because I just assumed if at least unconsciously people realized these things that I previously laid out.


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## Itachі (Jul 31, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Ah well true enough, it is something used too often, but it is always misapplied. Like if someone says "BREATHING FIRE, PEOPLE CAN'T DO THAT!" then yes pointing out that its fiction is valid to state. As I was attempting to point out to Gunners in futility, there exists in a story often laws of nature but regardless of that there are things which are as I can describe "intrinsically human". I've made plenty case for the latter in my previous post so I don't have the need to do it again.
> 
> To be honest when I had first saw such excuses I was more than a little shocked because I just assumed if at least unconsciously people realized these things.



Indeed, that's true. Power levels and such shouldn't be factored into the argument _unless_ the author _intends_ for the manga to be realistic in that sense and set in the real world with features akin to that of our world.

That excuse does not work for morality however, because as you said in your previous post the author tries to connect with us at that front and all of the feelings demonstrated in Naruto are very real.


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## fakkiha (Jul 31, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> Let's all calm down. We don't know yet if it's just another mistranslation.



 You say it like if this was the only time Kishimoto portrays Obito as a fallen hero. It is not new in this manga to exalt certain genocides as heroes simply because of their popularity or because they are the author's favorite characters.


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## takL (Jul 31, 2014)

please never ever ask me for right trans again if u keep using wrong trans even after i deliver.


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## Blu-ray (Jul 31, 2014)

Wow. I go to bed and come back and the thread became a clusterfuck of religion and Jesus and morality.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with Naruto forgiving Obito. It's the fact that he thinks Obito was such an awesome fellow despite all the atrocities he committed for nothing other than the shallow as fuck reason that Obito wanted to become Hokage, and all the atrocities Obito commented no more than a few hours ago seem to be forgotten. 

It's fine if Naruto forgives Obito on a personal level. It's not like he forgave Obito's sins or anything, and such a concept does not exist in this story anyway, so any comparison to Jesus isn't going to work.


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## LesExit (Jul 31, 2014)

TH4N4T0S said:


> However, there is the question of whether his presentation of this ideal is successful. The answer, as far as I'm concerned, is 'no', for the simple reason that Naruto's acts of forgiveness often occur too quickly after the crime. I imagine that even Buddha, assuming he was a mentally normal human being, would take time to recompose himself after a sworn enemy killed thousands of his comrades, not to mention his parents and many other people.


Ya it's like he needs no down time at all, that internal jesus power he has just supercharges his forgiving ability x200 
When I read that panel I had the most confused expression on my face thinking of everything that just happened in the past few days.
Kishi's pacing for all things in this manga is out of whack lol



VolatileSoul said:


> Wow. I go to bed and come back and the thread became a clusterfuck of religion and Jesus and morality.
> 
> Personally, I see nothing wrong with Naruto forgiving Obito. It's the fact that he thinks Obito was such an awesome fellow despite all the atrocities he committed for nothing other than the shallow as fuck reason that Obito wanted to become Hokage, and all the atrocities Obito commented no more than a few hours ago seem to be forgotten.
> 
> It's fine if Naruto forgives Obito on a personal level. It's not like he forgave Obito's sins or anything, and such a concept does not exist in this story anyway, so any comparison to Jesus isn't going to work.


Ya I think that's like everyone's issue with it. 

...too soon Naruto-kun...too soon...


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## Trojan (Jul 31, 2014)

takL said:


> please never ever ask me for right trans again if u keep using wrong trans even after i deliver.



lol, no the first 2 photos were from the tumbler, and with other photos as how foolish what Naruto said was. I posted it her earlier from the tumbler, then upgraded it with the photos in between. 

However, that does not mean that I still believe that the correct translation though. @>@
even though I still think Naruto saying that Obito is badass is still foolish, but I'll take that over
this translation any day.


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## Sardorim (Jul 31, 2014)

Hated it.

Obito was a highly selfish and petty fool who had killed many innocents while deluding himself into thinking the end result was worth all the death and sadness that he was causing.

Furthermore, Obito gets to be happy in the Afterlife with Rin? 

Should have been Konan greeting him in the Afterlife right before he tears him a new one!


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## Jagger (Jul 31, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> I thought it was obvious that the Obito Naruto was referring to was the current one who, while on the brink of death, risked his life on multiple occasions for Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura, and ended up paying the ultimate price.
> 
> That Obito would have never done the evils Obito did before and during the war.


Yeah, let's separate an individual in different stages of life. What you did as a teenager is still you, but with a different mindset. That might excuse some actions, but not others such as the one did by Obito during the Kyuubi's attack, for example.


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## Tony Lou (Jul 31, 2014)

Iruka and Neji also think he was the coolest guy.


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## Itachі (Jul 31, 2014)

Luiz said:


> Iruka and Neji also think he was the coolest guy.



Iruka already knows of the coolest man in Narutoverse, by having his tool inserted into his vertebrae.


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## takL (Jul 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> However, that does not mean that I still believe that the correct translation though. @>@



in eng please....


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## bloodplzkthxlol (Jul 31, 2014)

It would have been cooler if he did t forgive him, said fuck it and move on.

I award obitcho and naruto no points, may we forget this loser ever happened


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## Milliardo (Jul 31, 2014)

yea, man its cool to forgive a mass murderer thats the in thing these days. 


i know the only reason we entertain this idea is because it is fiction but it would be funny as hell to actually try this shit in real life.  i couldn't image someone trying to convince somebody to forgive a person on that scale. 

i'm sorry but i'm having a hard time taking it seriously. :rofl


----------



## Milliardo (Jul 31, 2014)

OodboO said:


> I'm bringing Jesus into this. Not religion. Religion is as retarded as you are.


i some how missed this but i've been wanting your respone..


jesus is a part of religion bro. do you have mental problems or something? i can't help but wonder this by the way you post.




> No.
> I never said that. That is so wrong of a statement, it shows you don't understand what I am saying one damn bit.
> Your reading comprehension is 0!


but you claim people who forgive are strong right? what about the people who don't forgive? they must be weak in your eyes. i mean what your saying they are average or something??? if someone is not strong then they must be weak. 



> Again, you're puttin word in my mouth.  Ask you retard.
> The answer is no.
> 
> From a place of strength comes forgiveness. Naruto had to defeat Obito. He had to submit his idiocy to put him in a place where he can forgive him.
> ...


i'm putting a word in your mouth lol? you keep saying people who forgive are strong...

by the middle part you are saying naruto had to beat his ass first to forgive him? doesn't that make him weak that he had to use violence?  that isn't what jesus would do.





> No!
> Forgiveness can't come from place of weakness. How many times have I said this?!
> 
> You fucking moron...


see you keep doing it... so people who don't forgive are weak because they aren't strong only those who forgive. i mean unless you are trying to say both are strong which that doesn't make sense...




> He doesn't get to decide to deserve redemption!?
> Obito agreed with Zetsu. Now your small minded resentment is putting words in Kishi's mouth.
> 
> 
> Are you also glad you never read?



no what i mean is that just because obito feels bad for what he did or doing a few things for good doesn't mean he should be forgiven. obito would have to do far more to earn it because you have to EARN forgiveness. 


so since you believe in eternal forgiveness does that mean you forgive me for these post?   i'm going to try and feel bad about it so i was wondering if that would equal forgiveness from someone who believes in eternal forgiveness.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 31, 2014)

Lol saying there is a boundary to forgiveness.

You are aware how big and extraordinary of a cla this is; right ?

If it can be broken then it was not the limit. Now if you say there is a boundary mostcpeople would not dare to cross yes. But saying there is an objective limit to forgiveness is easily proven wrong.

The limit is the limit; if it can be crossed at all then it was not the limit.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jul 31, 2014)

It's sad that a thread like this only exists because people don't understand relative clauses.

the Obito aiming to be Hokage =/= the Obito aiming for Mugen Tsukiyomi​
Black Zetsu bashes "the Obito aiming for Mugen Tsukiyomi" while completely ignoring his own and Madara's involvement in that.

Naruto defends "the Obito aiming to be Hokage"; the Obito before Madara & BZ got their hands on him.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 31, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Lol saying there is a boundary to forgiveness.
> 
> You are aware how big and extraordinary of a cla this is; right ?
> 
> ...



hey look who can't follow a discussion.



NarutoShion4ever said:


> It's sad that a thread like this only exists because people don't understand relative clauses.
> 
> the Obito aiming to be Hokage =/= the Obito aiming for Mugen Tsukiyomi​
> Black Zetsu bashes "the Obito aiming for Mugen Tsukiyomi" while completely ignoring his own and Madara's involvement in that.
> ...



Already elaborated. They are the same individual. There is no separating the two aspects of that person.


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (Jul 31, 2014)

Would naruto forgive osama bin Ladin and hitler? I wouldn't put it past him at this point


----------



## Escargon (Jul 31, 2014)

The only reason i can come with is that it is not Tobi he is looking up to, its Obito.

Idk man.


----------



## Lucky7 (Jul 31, 2014)

Well isn't this thread about two posts from being locked...

Anyway, what some of you don't understand is most of us aren't completely opposed to Naruto giving some form of forgiveness to Obito nor are we opposed to acknowledging Obito's recognition of the error of his ways. However, Naruto calling Obito "the coolest/ the most badass guy" is ridiculous. Can we agree on that, Obito stans? That regardless of how much of a help he's been since BZ took over his body, that him murdering Naruto's parents, attacking the village with the Kyuubi, essentially being the catalyst for the pain of Naruto's childhood, starting this fuckin' war in the first place, being the indirect cause for Madara's revival and thus Kaguya's return, killing Neji and 20,000 othe shinobi does in no way make him a cool guy?

Personally, I would have had the bulk of Obito's final speech be to Kakashi, who he has the most relevance to (seriously Kishi, it ain't all about Naruto all the time these two barely even know each other) with Obito saying his little "Be Hokage, Change the World" thing to Naruto before crumbling,with Naruto standing there with a heavy heart, contemplating the man and his story. We don't need the protagonist and the enemy to always be best friends at the end...


----------



## Blu-ray (Jul 31, 2014)

Did Naruto even say he forgave Obito? He did say he could not forgive Nagato. Even if he does forgive Obito, that doesn't mean Naruto has forgotten what he did, or condones it, and it doesn't mean he excuses it either. If Naruto starts making up excuses to justify what Obito did, that is when we have to seriously need to give up on this mess of a manga.

To be honest, this is not comparable to real life, disregarding the superpowers and taking morals and severity of Obito's actions into account. In real life, no one could fall so low to begin with, and no sane person would because of a reason as shitty as Obito's.

I said Naruto forgiving Obito made sense, but it only does from the context of this story, which clearly has it's own moral standard. Essentially, it's fiction. We'll go mad if we try to take this seriously.


----------



## LesExit (Jul 31, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Did Naruto even say he forgave Obito? He did say he could not forgive Nagato. Even if he does forgive Obito, that doesn't mean Naruto has forgotten what he did, or condones it, and it doesn't mean he excuses it either. If Naruto starts making up excuses to justify what Obito did, that is when we have to seriously need to give up on this mess of a manga.
> 
> To be honest, this is not comparable to real life, disregarding the superpowers and taking morals and severity of Obito's actions into account. In real life, no one could fall so low to begin with, and no sane person would because of a reason as shitty as Obito's.
> 
> I said Naruto forgiving Obito made sense, but it only does from the context of this story, which clearly has it's own moral standard. Essentially, it's fiction. We'll go mad if we try to take this seriously.


I think people think it's implied that he did....though I don't even know when Naruto met Nagato again it seemed like he had forgiven him. Though it seems that people can't come to an agreement on what forgiving even means so I don't know. Ya I think that's important, I don't think Naruto would ever say that he thinks what Obito did was good. I think Naruto could understand why Obito did what he did...but to think it's good...nah. I think the best way to look at it is that Naruto was speaking of the old Obito, not the one that turned him into a baby bomb....it was really just a strange line XD

People seem to be very opposed to accepting this is a fictional world which changes many things. "It's just an excuse. " No it's a factor, a very important one actually  Their world and our world are drastically different, to judge them the same is to ignore the world the author has made.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 31, 2014)

Obito > your favorite.


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## son_michael (Jul 31, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Already elaborated. They are the same individual. There is no separating the two aspects of that person.



Just because you came to the conclusion that Obito has not changed, doesn't mean the rest of us agree with it.





Lucky7 said:


> Anyway, what some of you don't understand is most of us aren't completely opposed to Naruto giving some form of forgiveness to Obito nor are we opposed to acknowledging Obito's recognition of the error of his ways. However, Naruto calling Obito "the coolest/ the most badass guy" is ridiculous. Can we agree on that, Obito stans? That regardless of how much of a help he's been since BZ took over his body, that him murdering Naruto's parents, attacking the village with the Kyuubi, essentially being the catalyst for the pain of Naruto's childhood, starting this fuckin' war in the first place, being the indirect cause for Madara's revival and thus Kaguya's return, killing Neji and 20,000 othe shinobi does in no way make him a cool guy?



So everyone's got their panties in a bunch over one line of dialog that has already been re translated by takl...


----------



## kidgogeta (Jul 31, 2014)

Disagree that he was the coolest guy, but I absolutely sympathize with his character taking into account the events of his entire life. Think about how many years hes lived with the image of a dead RIn in his mind, looking like a half - Zetsu freak, with only Zetsu ( now known to be manipulating everything) to talk to. I probably would have just killed myself. 

If anything being able to live on after that in pursuit of what he thought to be right is admirable in itself. We aren't talking about some sadistic killer that takes pleasure in the suffering of others. In his mind, what he was doing was for the greater good. There's nothing wrong with admiring someone like that imo even if they are ultimately wrong.


----------



## Frostman (Jul 31, 2014)

You know who else was a cool guy?

Neji -_-


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## LesExit (Jul 31, 2014)

Frostman said:


> You know who else was a cool guy?
> 
> Neji -_-


I really wish he didn't die.
Really he should've picked someone else...
I always believed that in order to truly bring the main and branch families together Neji could've became head. Though maybe things can change in his honor....but still


----------



## Hasan (Jul 31, 2014)

_"The guy who singlehandedly threw the world into chaos; killed nearly a hundred thousand people in a span of two days; attempted to end all humanity, on top of committing numerous atrocities in the past 17 years. . . once dreamt of becoming a Hokage, which is badass."_
​


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 31, 2014)

son_michael said:


> Just because you came to the conclusion that Obito has not changed, doesn't mean the rest of us agree with it.



Follow what I said. You can't separate teen and adult Obito, they are both the true Obito; just different aspects of him at different times. Even moreso on that point, his brief good doesn't erase all the terrible things he's done.


----------



## LesExit (Jul 31, 2014)

Hasan said:


> _"The guy who singlehandedly threw the world into chaos; killed nearly a hundred thousand people in a span of two days; attempted to end all humanity, on top of committing numerous atrocious acts for the past 17 years. . . once dreamt of becoming a Hokage, which is badass."_
> ​


Naruto will tell his children bedtime stories about one of the most badass people he's ever met...Obito :'D


----------



## Kai (Jul 31, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Did Naruto even say he forgave Obito? He did say he could not forgive Nagato.


Naruto said he could not forgive Nagato upon initial confrontation. He forgave Nagato after hearing his entire back story.

The Naruto we see today has come a long way since that trial with Nagato.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 31, 2014)

Obito did...his best...

his best.


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## Lord Aizen (Jul 31, 2014)

The path of forgiveness is overall better than the path of vengeance and hatred. After meeting NAgato naruro realized that and turned into a jesus like character. He understands pain so he forgives


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## son_michael (Jul 31, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Follow what I said. You can't separate teen and adult Obito, they are both the true Obito; just different aspects of him at different times. Even moreso on that point, his brief good doesn't erase all the terrible things he's done.



You're obviously not following Kishimotto's thought process at all. The teen Obito was the real Obito, he started out being a great guy who loves to help others and had a dream to make the world a better place by being Hokage.

The adult Obito was a man who had his values distorted, he was twisted and corrupted by a sinister and tragic set of events. He then threw away his true self and hid it behind a mask, when the mask came off he slowly started to remember his true self. During his fight with Naruto, his true self was perceived by naruto's senses and Naruto refused to give up on him for 2 reasons.

1. They are the same and he had a desire to save someone just like him.

2. He saw that in obito's heart he was not truly evil, that all these evil actions were because of a terrible trauma inflicted upon Obito and that deep down he's still searching for a way to make the world a better place. Only this time instead of doing it as a Hokage he's trying to do it with Tsukiyomi.

Now whether you agree with any of this or not is an entirely different issue.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 31, 2014)

son_michael said:


> You're obviously not following Kishimotto's thought process at all. The teen Obito was the real Obito, he started out being a great guy who loves to help others and had a dream to make the world a better place by being Hokage.
> 
> The adult Obito was a man who had his values distorted, he was twisted and corrupted by a sinister and tragic set of events. He then threw away his true self and hid it behind a mask, when the mask came off he slowly started to remember his true self. During his fight with Naruto, his true self was perceived by naruto's senses and Naruto refused to give up on him for 2 reasons.



Trust me, everyone can see Kishi's "genius", and I'm saying they were both the real Obito. They cannot be separated. Also he spent 17 of the 30 years of his life as Obito of the main story...so...there's that.



> 1. They are the same and he had a desire to save someone just like him.
> 
> 2. He saw that in obito's heart he was not truly evil, that all these evil actions were because of a terrible trauma inflicted upon Obito and that deep down he's still searching for a way to make the world a better place. Only this time instead of doing it as a Hokage he's trying to do it with Tsukiyomi.



That's what makes it such a twisted aesop.



> Now whether you agree with any of this or not is an entirely different issue.



I never get you people who redundantly state the course of events in the story as if that is what people are disputing.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 1, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Trust me, everyone can see Kishi's "genius", and I'm saying they were both the real Obito. They cannot be separated. Also he spent 17 of the 30 years of his life as Obito of the main story...so...there's that.



I don't have as much faith in humanity as you to think most people "get it"





> That's what makes it such a twisted aesop.


 Aesop?

 If you actually put yourself in the shoes of a someone who can save somebody, i'm sure you would want to save a person who resembles you the most. Especially when that person is a dark corrupted version of yourself.





> I never get you people who redundantly state the course of events in the story as if that is what people are disputing.



So what we are debating is if it's borderline psychotic for Naruto to care so much about Obito, right?

There's some things to consider then.


1. Naruto knows Obito's real self, whether you like it or not Kishi has made Obito's true self a good person.


2. Naruto wants to save everyone.


3. Naruto does not want to perpetuate hatred.


Based on all those things, It's perfectly clear why he would care so much about Obito, without even taking into consideration how they are alike and posses the same dreams.


And now the conversation moves to how Naruto is a shit character for being like that, because you prefer him to take revenge because in order for you to like Naruto you need Naruto to be like you and not the messianic savior figure Kishi is making him.


So finally the convo becomes about how in the real world this shit would never happen. And for the most part that's correct..because..

1. In real life we don't know why people commit evil acts, therefore we have no reason to sympathize with them.

2. Most people tend to care only for themselves.

3. We are not saviors like Naruto is being written to be.


Also I totally think kishi is using biblical themes here and conversely, there's nothing wrong with the way this is being written because it's nice not to have our real world life ruin this possibility of a society that can be saved with forgiveness. This is not our reality, stop taking offense to it when it clashes with our own.


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## Scila9 (Aug 1, 2014)

Nobody's talking about revenge 

Naruto crying over and praising lil Obito, adult Obito, whatever Obito, they are all still Obito... is a bit much for some people. It's not a matter of how unbelievable it is (it's Naruto, nothing like this is surprising anymore) it's a matter of how _relatable_. Clearly, many people find it highly unrelatable.

And in a story, if you cannot relate to the main character you tend to not be very connected/attached to the story. 

Kishi used to connect people to his story better. He use to be good at it. In my mind that's a fact. In my mind, he did this "they may have been our enemies before, but in the end I liked those guys" thing much, much better with Zabuza and Haku.

Thinking we should all be more like Naruto used to make sense cause we related to Naruto somehow. Never give up, never go back on your word, don't let hate rule you, etc. All good stuff, but I feel like lately Kishi has been showing these themes poorly. The way he he portrays them now is just ridiculous. Again, _unrelatable_.

Honestly though, I think the real problem here is that Obito committed some of the most heinous acts out of all the villains and his reasons were just 

People say Obito is like a dark Naruto, but if Naruto had ever turned like that I'd still sympathize with him, unlike Obito. He had a way more fucked up childhood than Obito.


----------



## Tony Lou (Aug 1, 2014)

Even Obito thought it made no sense. Just look at his face, 



It's like when you internally facepalm and then politely tell someone "...Okay."



son_michael said:


> I don't have as much faith in humanity as you to think most people "get it"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No such thing as a "true self". Everything you do, think and say is part of yourself as an individual. Every nuance.

You can't separate the bad shit and go "No, only the me that did good was the real me".

1. This is a world of information. The criminal's reason to do such act as well as his history normally is mentioned, especially in cases of murder. We still rarely sympathise.

2. He doesn't. Naruto didn't try to understand Orochimaru, Kakuzu and Madara.

3. Irrelevant. We don't have to compare ourselves to a character in order to criticise it.



TheWebbstir said:


> People say Obito is like a dark Naruto, but if Naruto had ever turned like that I'd still sympathize with him, unlike Obito. He had a way more fucked up childhood than Obito.



Naruto didn't have a fucked up childhood. 

Half the characters in the series could only wish their only problem had been being lonely.

As for Obito... I believe you remember the flashback from the time when he met Madara.


----------



## NarutoShion4ever (Aug 1, 2014)

TheWebbstir said:


> Nobody's talking about revenge
> 
> *Naruto crying over and praising lil Obito, adult Obito, whatever Obito, they are all still Obito... is a bit much for some people. It's not a matter of how unbelievable it is (it's Naruto, nothing like this is surprising anymore) it's a matter of how relatable. Clearly, many people find it highly unrelatable.*
> 
> ...




But that is partly because of how the story evolved, partly how Kishimoto didn't adapt to the change, and partly how the readers did or did not adapt to that change:

(1) When the story was smaller in scale, it was easy to relate to the characters, but now that the story has increased its scale, the reader has to relate more to themes and less to characters. The more abstract it becomes, the more difficult it becomes to relate to it for most people.

(2) Kishimoto didn't really change his story-telling such that the abstract concept remained relatable and thus we got the discussion between Naruto and Obito about the meaning of being a Hokage. So instead of a proper discussion about the struggle, we got something that *represents* the struggle in a more abstract sense but that makes it more difficult to relate to.

(3) Not everything is Kishimoto's fault though. There have been quite a few posters on this forum who seem incapable of adjusting to the simple fact that this manga is not an English story with a Western cultural and philosophical background. So in a thread like this, posters seem to focus on their own morality instead of the morality of the manga...or they focus on cold hard logic instead of morality. Saying that "it's the same Obito" is refusing to acknowledge that the story is talking about two Obito's with very different morals.​
But it's not a recent problem: Neji's death was also unrelatable and before that we had Anko and Yamato being used as chakra batteries. The story has simply ceased to be relatable a long time ago and is solely focused on its thematic plot.


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## Seto Kaiba (Aug 1, 2014)

> English story with a Western cultural and philosophical background. So in a thread like this, posters seem to focus on their own morality instead of the morality of the manga...or they focus on cold hard logic instead of morality.



That is such a shitty copout, particularly considering other series and this manga itself had no issue with this previously.

Furthermore, the morality of the manga, and its success in connecting to the audience, depends on morality as it exists! You can't have a "blue and orange" morality and expect people to connect with it.


----------



## Scila9 (Aug 1, 2014)

Luiz said:


> Naruto didn't have a fucked up childhood.
> 
> Half the characters in the series could only wish their only problem had been being lonely.
> 
> As for Obito... I believe you remember the flashback from the time when he met Madara.



I stand by what I said.

Naruto was not only lonely. His existence by everyone except Jiji was despised (everyone he was around anyway). He grew up being hated as if he was the scum of the earth. Either that, or completely ignored cuz people wanted to pretend his despicable existence wasn't really there at all. Imo Gaara had it worse than Naruto and Naruto had it worse than Obito. Then there's Sasuke who's life is a different sort of fucked up.

Obito's parents died (just like nearly everyone elses cuz of war times) and he lost Rin. That's it. Manipulated by Madara or not, his reasons aren't any better than any other war time child/ninja. Same with Nagato who was manipulated by Tobi. They both should have thought a little harder about who their "true selves" were _before_ they decided they wanted to take over the world/force everyone into a false reality.

But no, it took Naruto's hour-or-two-long TnJ years later for them to realize that they didn't really want to do that afterall. Yes, in a matter of hours Naruto convinced them that their 17 or so year goal wasn't actually what they wanted.

This is why some think Kishi's villians are flimsy...


----------



## Itachі (Aug 1, 2014)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> It's sad that a thread like this only exists because people don't understand relative clauses.
> 
> the Obito aiming to be Hokage =/= the Obito aiming for Mugen Tsukiyomi​
> Black Zetsu bashes "the Obito aiming for Mugen Tsukiyomi" while completely ignoring his own and Madara's involvement in that.
> ...



No, this thread was made because I thought that Naruto saying what he did was cringeworthy and inappropriate, nothing to do with the moral side of things.


----------



## Orochibuto (Aug 1, 2014)

We also forget an Uchiha losing someine cause mental diseases; Obito was not mentally competent. There is a reason why he is 13 again; Obito never grew past 13.


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## Jagger (Aug 1, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> We also forget an Uchiha losing someine cause mental diseases; Obito was not mentally competent. There is a reason why he is 13 again; Obito never grew past 13.


He knew exactly what he was doing. The problem is that he still had the mental picture of the Rin that died many years ago.

A mentally competent person would have recognized all the deeds he's done to others through their entire life. Obito did that.


----------



## Blu-ray (Aug 1, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> We also forget an Uchiha losing someine cause mental diseases; Obito was not mentally competent. There is a reason why he is 13 again; Obito never grew past 13.



They don't have mental diseases. That was never said. Plus, if he was insane, Naruto's pep talk would not have fixed it any more than his pep talk could heal physical injuries. He realized what he did was wrong after all was said and done, so that means he was sane to begin with. He was fully aware of what he was doing.


----------



## takL (Aug 1, 2014)

meh naruto specifies when obito was cool=when obito was a hokage hopeful. 
at the same time he implies that he can never ever say tobito/the terrorist obito was 'cool'.

"in ninja's world those who violate the rules and regulations are labeled as dregs...but...
those who dont care for their fellows are even lower than the dregs" 
who said this and denied?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Aug 1, 2014)

Jagger said:


> He knew exactly what he was doing. The problem is that he still had the mental picture of the Rin that died many years ago.
> 
> A mentally competent person would have recognized all the deeds he's done to others through their entire life. Obito did that.



People always get that "Curse of Hatred" thing so wrong. The curse is metaphorical and specifically refers to a cycle that the Uchiha often wind up in, giving into hatred because of the path pursued on the way to power. I thought it was simple to get myself...

About Obito and his awareness of his deeds...you know for things like this it does bring up a question. How many times does one have to repeat an evil deed before the idea of redemption and forgiveness of no longer become palatable?

The way and for what BZ insulted Obito, despite being absolutely right on many points, is much the same as how when Sai merely for his words about Sasuke earlier on were presented. As if they were wrong for saying so, their other antagonistic deeds notwithstanding. Things are only right if Naruto feels they are right, regardless of having any compelling reason behind it and things are wrong when he feels they are wrong. It's incredible people are trying to twist it into a some incredible development of spiritual development on Naruto's part, as if Naruto was being "poisoned" by his contempt for the guy in the first place...Or if he ever had any compelling reason since becoming Ninja Jesus for many of his assertions anyway.


*Spoiler*: _son_michael_ 





son_michael said:


> I don't have as much faith in humanity as you to think most people "get it"



It doesn't require much faith in humanity.



> Aesop?



A lesson that the author wishes to convey and connect to the reader in a story. 



> If you actually put yourself in the shoes of a someone who can save somebody, i'm sure you would want to save a person who resembles you the most. Especially when that person is a dark corrupted version of yourself.



The danger they pose to others would be more important than my personal feelings for them. Especially in consideration of their crimes and the weight of them. However, even for people that do not operate like me, it is going to be more often than not a circumstantial matter of what did the person do, and any possible information on their upbringing after the fact. 



> So what we are debating is if it's borderline psychotic for Naruto to care so much about Obito, right?



Because it is, well it's completely psychotic actually. 



> There's some things to consider then.
> 
> 1. Naruto knows Obito's real self, whether you like it or not Kishi has made Obito's true self a good person.
> 
> ...



Points that I'm not disputing...I just told you it's not the events that are the point of contention, it is what Kishi is trying to put as the underlying themes in those matters. Naruto has not provided a compelling reason for his goals, Naruto went beyond what people are trying to characterize as and defend in his defense of Obito against BZ's verbal assaults, which completely compromises the messages Kishi tries to send through such events. 



> Based on all those things, It's perfectly clear why he would care so much about Obito, without even taking into consideration how they are alike and posses the same dreams.
> 
> And now the conversation moves to how Naruto is a shit character for being like that, because you prefer him to take revenge because in order for you to like Naruto you need Naruto to be like you and not the messianic savior figure Kishi is making him.



No, it really makes no sense. You see that's the problem with Kishi. He thinks explanation of why villains are the way they are is excuse for that and enough reason to sympathize with them when it is not. It merely serves to explain why they are.

Well thank you for the idiotic strawman! Refusal to forgive a person doesn't mean a desire to enact revenge against an individual. You and others should learn those are two distinct actions.



> So finally the convo becomes about how in the real world this shit would never happen. And for the most part that's correct..because..



Which makes the execution of the moral theme a failure. 



> 1. In real life we don't know why people commit evil acts, therefore we have no reason to sympathize with them.



Which makes the execution of the moral theme a failure. The concepts are based on good faith, and evidence with an intuitive approach to that evidence; something which takes time. Which is why society does not afford, nor does the individual in typical cases such luxuries to those that commit heinous crimes on a repeated basis. 



> 2. Most people tend to care only for themselves.
> 
> 3. We are not saviors like Naruto is being written to be.



#2 is blatantly wrong.

#3 Naruto is written as a Gary Stu with a selective bias on that regard. 




> Also I totally think kishi is using biblical themes here and conversely, there's nothing wrong with the way this is being written because it's nice not to have our real world life ruin this possibility of a society that can be saved with forgiveness. This is not our reality, stop taking offense to it when it clashes with our own.



What an idiotic thing to say regarding a story that the author wishes to connect our own sense of morals and values to. I should absolutely criticize it when it fails to do so. There's no biblical theme here, there's just what seems to be a complete failure and/or inability to juggle the desired themes and understand people in it. As well as an extremely simplified approach to complex issues in some vain attempt to seem deep. This is the problem of a story trying to tackle truly complicated matters is that it has the high risk of fumbling on them. 

What does forgiveness mean to the sociopath or the unrepentant criminal? If only peace were such a simple matter as understanding others and forgiveness of others...It's not like there are myriads of aspects of human nature and motivation that drive conflict in the world.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Aug 1, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Already elaborated. They are the same *individual*. There is no separating the *two aspects* of that person.




As a materialistic interpretation, Obito is one individual.

As a spiritual interpretation, there are two Obito's---two aspects.

You're just denying what the manga tells you.




Seto Kaiba said:


> Furthermore, the morality of the manga, and its success in connecting to the audience, depends on morality as it exists!




Not necessarily. It needs to be *familiar* to readers which can be done either by connecting it with real world morality or by taking the time to explain the morality of the story.

Kishimoto definitely didn't explain the morality of his story all that well, but that's probably because he doesn't need to explain it to his Japanese readers. Even *I* can make the connections between the manga and the various moral concepts in Asian culture via a wikipedia search.

So what you're really saying is: its success in connecting to the audience [outside of Asia], depends on morality as it exists [outside of Asia]​ which is both obvious and not the author's problem unless he considered non-Asians part of his target demographic.




Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> No, this thread was made because I thought that Naruto saying what he did was cringeworthy and inappropriate, nothing to do with the moral side of things.




Yes, if you separate the statement from the moral context, you get nonsense. Which should make people reach the obvious conclusion that they shouldn't separate the two.




Seto Kaiba said:


> People always get that "Curse of Hatred" thing so wrong. The curse is metaphorical and specifically refers to a cycle that the Uchiha often wind up in, giving into hatred because of the path pursued on the way to power. I thought it was simple to get myself...




Love is the biggest reward, while losing it is the biggest emotional hurt. More love = move hurt = more hatred = more power​ Yes, it's the step from hurt to hatred that's important. The step is either taken due to the life they lead (the ninja system) or deliberately pursued in search of power. But it doesn't come across as metaphorical because---even though it's a shounen trope that emotions constitute a power-up---any power-up from "Will of Fire and its variants" seems negligible compared to a Curse of Hatred power-up.

Another example of the difference between what Kishimoto intends to show and what he actually shows.


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## Seto Kaiba (Aug 1, 2014)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> As a materialistic interpretation, Obito is one individual.
> 
> As a spiritual interpretation, there are two Obito's---two aspects.
> 
> You're just denying what the manga tells you.



There are not two Obito, just different sides of him as I stated. 



> Not necessarily. It needs to be *familiar* to readers which can be done either by connecting it with real world morality or by taking the time to explain the morality of the story.
> 
> Kishimoto definitely didn't explain the morality of his story all that well, but that's probably because he doesn't need to explain it to his Japanese readers. Even *I* can make the connections between the manga and the various moral concepts in Asian culture via a wikipedia search.



Again, a bullshit copout considering previously his and other stories had no trouble with that cultural divide. It's not that people can't understand the intricacies of morality in GREAT NIPPON. This isn't exactly feudal Japan here, they are a first-world country, with first-world moral concepts and laws...which if you didn't know, Kishi is a product of. It's that Kishi doesn't seem to understand people and has lost a lot of his ability to juggle those concepts in his story. 

It's not just that he doesn't explain it well, it's that at many times he contradicts it or stretches far beyond what would be relatable to many people. Most obvious example, the dilemma between Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura.



> So what you're really saying is: its success in connecting to the audience [outside of Asia], depends on morality as it exists [outside of Asia]​ which is both obvious and not the author's problem unless he considered non-Asians part of his target demographic.



Asia doesn't have a monolithic culture or value system. However definitely with Japan it does not have some alien morality that is wildly different from say the west regarding the concepts Kishi touches upon. Modern Japan is shaped by its own cultural and national identity but also by heavy western influence is it was born from that. Again, a desperate copout. 

Your argument does not explain at all why many stories there are able to resonate with audiences on an international level regardless, and why people previously felt that way for this very story, once again.


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## Blu-ray (Aug 1, 2014)

takL said:


> meh naruto specifies when obito was cool=when obito was a hokage hopeful.
> at the same time he implies that he can never ever say tobito/the terrorist obito was 'cool'.
> 
> "in ninja's world those who violate the rules and regulations are labeled as dregs...but...
> ...



So its implied that Naruto was referring to when Obito wanted to be Hokage. Actually, whether the Japanese implies that doesn't really matter. It's common sense and should be obvious.

I wonder how many times stuff getting lost in translation warped how we perceive what the author and the characters intended to convey.


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## Mizura (Aug 2, 2014)

This still going on?
MOST people in humanity thought they were good people.
Al Capone (notorious gangster) thought he was just doing people a favor by providing illegal goods (even though he killed many people as a result).
Suicide bombers and people like Osama Bin Laden think they are carrying out the word of God (or something).
Even Hitler thought he was an awesome genius doing good for the people in Germany.
Remember that loser shooter Elliot Rodger a while back? He thought he was 'punishing' women.

Just because they believe themselves to be just, it doesn't make them any less complete POS.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 2, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> Did this make anyone else cringe?
> 
> Calm down son, he's not that cool.



All because Obito shared the same dream as him to become Hokage.  Everything else is a moot point in comparison to that.  

This guy is the man whose actions resulted in the death of your parents and instigated a Shinobi World War that claimed hundreds of thousands of lives.  Yet he helps out Naruto a couple times and dies saving his life, and he gets a pass into a peaceful after-life.

Vegeta wasn't that fortunate when he sacrificed himself in an attempt to destroy Majin Buu.


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## Haruka Katana (Aug 2, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> So its implied that Naruto was referring to when Obito wanted to be Hokage. Actually, whether the Japanese implies that doesn't really matter. It's common sense and should be obvious.
> 
> I wonder how many times stuff getting lost in translation warped how we perceive what the author and the characters intended to convey.



True that.

MP and MS


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## Narutossss (Aug 2, 2014)

can a mod lock this damn thread already?


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