# Doflamingo vs Marco



## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 7, 2013)

Location: Dressrosa, starting distance is 60 meters.
Intel: None.
Intent: To kill/blood lusted.
Restrictions: None.


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## RF (Nov 7, 2013)

Again         ?


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## Freechoice (Nov 7, 2013)

The fuck is this shit.


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## November (Nov 7, 2013)

.


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## Slenderman (Nov 7, 2013)

Guys let's be nice. OT: Marco high difficulty.


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## trance (Nov 7, 2013)

Marco mid difficulty.


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## Extravlad (Nov 7, 2013)

Marco lolstomps.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 7, 2013)

Are there any clouds near ? Cause it will make a whole lot of difference if Marco kicks him from the air to the ground or kicks him from the ground to the sea level .


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## Zorofangirl24 (Nov 7, 2013)

Flamingo gets fodderized.


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## Akitō (Nov 7, 2013)

It'd be pretty close, but Marco would win I think. Doflamingo's offense doesn't seem to be that powerful physically relative to the other top-tiers - he more or less seems to rely on catching people and then getting a free hit on them. Marco's the stronger character anyway, so his style advantage doesn't really matter much.


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## Mihawk (Nov 7, 2013)

Marco high difficulty


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## Shinthia (Nov 7, 2013)

Akainu magma fist both of them just for the lolz


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## Lawliet (Nov 7, 2013)

Meh, I'm going with Doflamingo.


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## Atlantic Storm (Nov 7, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Meh, I'm going with Doflamingo.



Any particular reason?


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## RF (Nov 7, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Meh, I'm going with Doflamingo.



That blind confidence.....

Best case Marco mid diffs. Though I'd say it's closer to high.


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## Bitty (Nov 7, 2013)

Marco a very strong mid-diff....maybe a slight high. Dofla has shown no where the offensive capability to even phase Marco.
Marco has way better feats & portrayal.


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## Tiger (Nov 7, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> Guys let's be nice. OT: Marco high difficulty.





Doflαmingo said:


> Marco high difficulty



^ This.

Doffy can make things very painful and difficult, but at this point I don't think we've seen anything from Doffy that can't be regenerated.

It would quite possibly be an aerial battle too, which would be cool, but ultimately Marco should have the advantage.

Basically, I see them both able to mortally wound one another, but Marco regenerates and Doffy doesn't.

Marco, high-diff.


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## Halcyon (Nov 7, 2013)

Phoenix takes it mid-high


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## Freechoice (Nov 7, 2013)

Mid diff.


Doflamingo is becoming vastly overrated.


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## Rob (Nov 7, 2013)

@Bitty

You don't think cutting a building in half from god-knows how long away is a good offensive feat? 

Anyway, Dofla seems to get better feats every chapter.... Marco Low end of High diff right now. 

(I hope Dofla ends up being around Marco's level in the end)


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## Halcyon (Nov 7, 2013)

(I don't)


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## Freechoice (Nov 7, 2013)

Halcyon said:


> (I don't)



Don't get me started on the whole Julia Roberts playing Julia Roberts thing.


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## Lawliet (Nov 8, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Any particular reason?



Hummm... Marco never impressed me to be honest, other than his good DFS + his regeneration? He got nothing on Doflamingo. I believe that Doflamingo will be the StrawHats biggest  obstacle (Pirate) other than the Yonkou themselves. Other possibilities might appear later on the story, but so far; I'm holding to that belief.  Doflamingo's offense is actually pretty lethal if you think about it. Strings are not something you should underestimate, a normal string in real life could kill a person or injure a hand by accident. Doflamingo showed the capability of destroying a building all the way from GreenBit to DressRosa, which is pretty damn impressive. He also showed the capability of destroying strong opponents such as Sanji whom he himself is pretty strong as well. The ability to control a person like Jozu, a person who is not far below than Marco in overall strength (I don't wanna have an off guard debate about Jozu and Doflamingo ). I'm not saying Doflamingo is certainly winning this, but since I had the option to choose, I'm leaning towards Doflamingo. And hopefully, when we get to the bottom of all of this, we'll have a better answer to this question.


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## Shinthia (Nov 8, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Hummm... *Marco never impressed me to be honest,* *other than his good DFS + his regeneration? **He got nothing on Doflamingo.* I believe that Doflamingo will be the StrawHats biggest  obstacle (Pirate) other than the Yonkou themselves. Other possibilities might appear later on the story, but so far; I'm holding to that belief.  Doflamingo's offense is actually pretty lethal if you think about it. Strings are not something you should underestimate, a normal string in real life could kill a person or injure a hand by accident. *Doflamingo showed the capability of destroying a building all the way from GreenBit to DressRosa, which is pretty damn impressive*. He also showed the capability of destroying strong opponents such as Sanji whom he himself is pretty strong as well. The ability to control a person like Jozu, a person who is not far below than Marco in overall strength (I don't wanna have an off guard debate about Jozu and Doflamingo ). I'm not saying Doflamingo is certainly winning this, but since I had the option to choose, I'm leaning towards Doflamingo. And hopefully, when we get to the bottom of all of this, we'll have a better answer to this question.


Really ? Really ? 
Did u not see is speed feat or intentionally playing ignorant ? He actually hit Kizaru (probably the fastest guy in OP universe) head on.

One of Kizau's attack which was aimed at WSM did not do anything to Marco's full phoenix form how the hell someone like DD who's haki is obviously below Kizaru gonna do better ? heh 

and in the next panel an injured/fucked up Law, a fucking rookie who is not known for his physical strength at all blocked that easily with his sword only (no DF).

i know its just ur opinion but its a Zorofangirl like opinion . Baseless


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## Enel (Nov 8, 2013)

I'd put Doflamingo between Marco and Jozu, so Marco wins it with extreme-diff. I think Doflamingo's haki is pretty strong, so he can give Marco some trouble.


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## Lawliet (Nov 8, 2013)

> Did u not see is speed feat or intentionally playing ignorant ? He actually hit Kizaru (probably the fastest guy in OP universe) head on



Okay?



> One of Kizau's attack which was aimed at WSM did not do anything to Marco's full phoenix form how the hell someone like DD who's haki is obviously below Kizaru gonna do better ?



Hence, why I said Marco's good DFS.....



> and in the next panel an injured/fucked up Law, a fucking rookie who is not known for his physical strength at all blocked that easily with his sword only (no DF).



First of all, he's not a rookie anymore, I don't understand how long people are going to label the supernovas as Rookies, they obviously made names for themselves. 

2nd, blocking one attack, which was a shooting string is not anything to be proud of. How many meteorites has Law blocked from Fuji? Their battlefield was full of them which implies that Fuji failed to kill/capture him multiple times, that does not mean Fuji is weak or anything, it just means Law is strong to the point where you can't just fodderize him.



> i know its just ur opinion but its a Zorofangirl like opinion . Baseless



You're obviously still mad from our last debate which is why you still bring up that member and take things personally, good job with showing how mature you are lol


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## RF (Nov 8, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Hummm... Marco never impressed me to be honest, other than his good DFS + his regeneration? He got nothing on Doflamingo.



He has the strength to kick Kizaru through his block and casually send admirals flying. Also, matching Akainu's magma fist. Coupled with razor sharp talons that would cut through Doflamingo like butter.

He has the combat speed to keep up and land hits on a wary Kizaru and Aokiji. Doflamingo was vastly outclassed by Aokiji's Reiatsu Crush; couldn't even get an attack off before being turned into an ice cube.

So what if Doflamingo's strings are lethal? Guess what's also lethal. Laser showers that cover a huge portion of the island. You know what else? Magma fists with enough strength behind them to match Whitebeard's earthquakes. And they didn't even _faze _ Marco. Thinking Doflamingo will come anywhere close to the limit of Marco's regeneration before the latter gets a single attack off is nothing but a mixture of wank and delusion.

So what if you think that Doflamingo will be their greatest challenge before the Emperors? (which obviously won't be the case, we've seen how the likes of admirals treat him) Marco was spoken of in the same breath as the Emperors themselves. 

Whitebeard's best fighter was not weaker than the World Goverments seventh. That simply is _not_ the case. Hence why I've started doubting that even someone like Kizaru is decisively stronger than him. How ridiculously lopsided would have the war been if the pirates were _that_ weak? That Whitebeard arrived with a heavily outmatched fleet and despite Sengoku's tactics and constant impediments they _still_ managed to free Ace? Nope. Not happening. The Whitebeard pirates need to start getting some respect around here.


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## Shinthia (Nov 8, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Okay?



so u r admitting that u underrated Marco here ?



> Hence, why I said Marco's good DFS.....



not just good one of the best one (if not the best)



> 2nd, blocking one attack, which was a shooting string is not anything to be proud of. How many meteorites has Law blocked from Fuji? Their battlefield was full of them which implies that Fuji failed to kill/capture him multiple times, that does not mean Fuji is weak or anything, it just means Law is strong to the point where you can't just fodderize him.



Law used his main power (hex DF) to survive from Fuji & DD (yea, DD was there too). But, the move u r so proud of (Over Heat) was blocked by Law (a DF whore) *physically *not with DF. Big big big difference. Unless Marco is physically weaker than Law (lol) DD's cutting attack is not that much of a threat to him as u r implying.



> You're obviously still mad from our last debate which is why you still bring up that member and take things personally, good job with showing how mature you are lol



I am just allergic to people who sees only good side of their loved character but see only the bad side of his opponents. In short i hate double standards.


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## God Movement (Nov 8, 2013)

Marco with no more than mid difficulty or so.


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## Vengeance (Nov 8, 2013)

Marco high - very high difficulty.


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## Ryuksgelus (Nov 8, 2013)

Can someone explain to me how Doflomingo gives Marco a high difficulty fight. What exactly do they envision going on?

People really think Five Coloreds strings can bypass Marco's flames and hit his real body just because Joker has haki? Sanji took the ability just fine but it's going to do serious damage to Marco if it did bypass his Phoenix form at all? Nope, clearly that is bullshit when Akainu didn't even hurt him.

People really think Doflomingo can match Marco in the air? Marco is going to fly at Doflomingo to kick him and Doflomingo will be capable of physically blocking him like Sanji? No it's clear if Doflomingo flies to Joker he is kicking him 3 miles away into a crater.  Neither his physical strength or his strings could stop Marco when lasers didn't stop his advance.

Not only is Joker a lot weaker overall but Marco is a bad match up for him anyways. They could be roughly the same level and Marco would still have the advantage. The only person who damaged his real body is Garp and he took that punch.


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## Akitō (Nov 8, 2013)

I can understand oOLawlietOo's point of view: it's just something that I myself don't really believe. But it's a logical opinion to have in my mind. Doflamingo's nearing the Admiral level and Marco is too. 

A lot of people assume that Marco's really really close to an Admiral, but we never got to see much from because of all the interruptions. As we've seen a few times in this manga, one block or hit on a strong character doesn't necessarily make you strong. Doflamingo was in a disadvantageous position against Aokiji, but it wasn't so disadvantageous that I'd put him well below the pheasant: he allowed himself to be hit and still managed to escape from someone who literally has nearly one-shot capabilities. 

The fact that he even risked attacking Smoker in front of Aokiji I think is an indication that he isn't too far off from the top guys. Marco is obviously near there (or there) too, but saying anything more than that is guesswork. We have to see how Doflamingo and Marco interact with Admiral-level opponents for an extended period of time.


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## Lawliet (Nov 8, 2013)

Having debates about this is pointless. We don't have enough information on either of them, which only makes things more of speculations. I'll just wait and see how strong he really is, like I said before, I'm not stating this as a fact (Doflamingo > Marco), all I'm saying is there is no way to know, but since I've been given the option to choose, I'm simply choosing Doflamingo. And hopefully, we'll see who's right when things reach to an end.


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## Bitty (Nov 8, 2013)

RobLucciRapes said:


> @Bitty
> 
> You don't think cutting a building in half from god-knows how long away is a good offensive feat?
> 
> ...



I didn't say it wasn't a good offensive feat, it's not good enough against a guy who took multiple attacks from admiral level opponents & was able to clash with all of them for an entire arc almost. Hell, he even took some attacks without his DF ability head on & was still fighting without showing signs of slowing down.  Zoro can slice buildings in half......just because the attack has lethal range doesn't mean it's going to be anymore effective against Marco's defense.  

While Dofla had one interaction with an admiral level opponent, against a casual Aojiki who didn't even lift his hands or perform a named attack. He fears the threat of a yonkou while Marco was spoken in the same breathe as the yonkou even without WB & a crippled crew.

yes...His feats are getting better & better....well of course they are considering he's barely shown us any serious feats at all. & they're getting better, but relative to who? cause nothing he's done in this arc has shown me he can seriously challenge yonkou/admiral level opponents.

Marco was the right hand man of the World's Strongest Man & has been with him since Roger's era.  He's clashed & more than held his own against every pre-skip admiral. Given the benefit of the doubt by the Gorosei even with a severely crippled crew.  Marco has done more than enough to show us he's clearly superior to Dofla by feats & portrayal.


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## Ryuksgelus (Nov 8, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Having debates about this is pointless. *We don't have enough information on either of them,* which only makes things more of speculations. I'll just wait and see how strong he really is, like I said before, I'm not stating this as a fact (Doflamingo > Marco), all I'm saying is there is no way to know, but since I've been given the option to choose, I'm simply choosing Doflamingo. And hopefully, we'll see who's right when things reach to an end.



Some(actually many) might say being one of the few characters to stand up to Admirals is proof enough he is above Doflomingo. It's called portrayal. 

One is portrayed poorly against two admirals. The other(Marco) is only taken down by an Admiral with assistance and fights all three at different points. Weaker than them but he clearly can fight them on equal footing. Only downplayers of those feats and people who make excuses and alternate interpretations of the Joker's scenes think otherwise.


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## Lawliet (Nov 8, 2013)

> Marco was spoken in the same breathe as the yonkou even without WB & a crippled crew.



What is that supposed to mean? That Marco's strength is comparable to a Yonkou? And if I'm not mistaken, it was said the WB's remnants, wasn't Marco a lone. And they were said they could be along with the Yonkou the only ones who can stop BB, and that was pre skip BB. Marco and his group got no chance at stopping BB now.

And Doflamingo was said to be the New Marine's biggest threat. A bigger threat than the Yonkou in the past two years.


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## Slenderman (Nov 8, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> He has the strength to kick Kizaru through his block and casually send admirals flying. Also, matching Akainu's magma fist. Coupled with razor sharp talons that would cut through Doflamingo like butter.
> 
> He has the combat speed to keep up and land hits on a wary Kizaru and Aokiji. Doflamingo was vastly outclassed by Aokiji's Reiatsu Crush; couldn't even get an attack off before being turned into an ice cube.
> 
> ...



So much WB pirate wank. It was him and the remnants not just him by himself. The WB pirates didn't save Ace, Luffy with max plot armor did. Remember what happened when pineapple head tried to save Ace? He got his ass knocked down to the floor by my man Monkey D Garp. DD even though with effort broke out of the ice. He clearly was fazed when he turned his back to Kizaru and got 2 lasers. Aokiji wasn't wary, he was fighting Luffy. He can be spoken of in the same breath but he still failed to stop Teach from becoming a Yonkou. If he's so powerful and admiral level he should have stopped him. At least DD doesn't get his ass caught by Onigumo. The WB pirates are over wanked here.


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## Harard (Nov 8, 2013)

What said:


> Mid diff.
> 
> 
> Doflamingo is becoming vastly overrated.



Not anymore. Doflamingo was at one point vastly overrated, but most people have come to their senses by now. I still remember the times when people would say "what exactly does Marco have that he could hurt Doflamingo with" or "All Marco has is defense with his fruit, Doflamingo wins high difficulty."

Hell, about more than half of the OL proclaimed Doflamingo to be Admiral/Yonkou level at one point.


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## Bitty (Nov 8, 2013)

Marco's name was clearly spoken separately from the rest of the crew, indication that he is the strongest & most important member.  They considered him specifically out his group & made the comparison.  Just like you would say Shanks & the Red Hair....Big Mom & the Big Mom pirates....Marco & the WB remnants..etc etc.


It's going to be crew vs crew & of course captain vs captain.  When they said stopping Teach, pretty sure that didn't mean just Teach by himself.

Of course Dofla's is the New Marines biggest threat _currently_ & their cause of concern _at the moment_. He's the most dangerous Shichi, but that's not an indication of strength, but rather his actions, influence, & plans. He's cunning, evil, unpredictable & basically can do whatever the fuck he wants & the marines can't touch him cause of his lineage.  All of this & he's still scared shitless of Kaidou.  Because Kaidou's a pirate & doesn't give a damn about any connections he has.



Slenderman said:


> So much WB pirate wank. It was him and the remnants not just him by himself. The WB pirates didn't save Ace Luffy with max plot armor did. Member what happened when pineapple head tried to save Ace? He got his ass knocked down to the floor by my man Monkey D Garp. DD even though with effort broke out of the ice. He clearly was fazed when he turned his back to Kizaru and started bleeding. Aokiji wasn't wary he was fighting Luffy. He can be spoken of in the same breath but he still failed to stop Teach from becoming a Yonkou. If he's so powerful and admiral level he should have stopped him. At least DD doesn't get his ass caught by Onigumo. The WB pirates are over wanked here.



& No the WB pirates are not over wanked, they're just finally getting a little respect.  The general conscience is that Marco can give any admiral high-diff, maybe extreme Fuji, that Vista & Jozu can give an admiral mid-diff at best....that's incredibly fair & not wanking at all.

Marco doesn't have to be dead equal to each admiral to be on their general level. & yea it would make perfect sense for Marco to stop & defeat the main villain of the series who has a higher growth rate than any character not named Luffy, wields two of the strongest fruits, & is destined to defeat Shanks. Marco's strong but he's not that strong. Even though 1.we don't even know for sure if he's fought Teach yet. 2. If they did fight we don't know how far Marco pushed Teach. Besides, no one one was able to stop Teach. The Marines & other Yonkou included.


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## Slenderman (Nov 8, 2013)

Bitty said:


> Marco's name was clearly spoken separately from the rest of the crew, indication that he is the strongest & most important member.  They considered him specifically out his group & made the comparison.  Just like you would say Shanks & the Red Hair....Big Mom & the Big Mom pirates....Marco & the WB remnants..etc etc.
> 
> 
> It's going to be crew vs crew & of course captain vs captain.  When they said stopping Teach, pretty sure that didn't mean just Teach by himself.
> ...



That's a fair opinion but some say that Marco will give Kizaru high-extreme difficulty or ti'll be either way. The main reason for me to believe that they fought is because I would expect Marco to go and fight for the territories and not sit on his ass while all of his father's hard earned territories slip away. For Marines they still had to rebuild during those 2 years as they had Sengoku and Garp retiring, Akainu vs Aokiji, and finding new admirals. Not really any of the Yonkou would purposely go after him unless Shank's did. But I get where you're coming from.


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## Ryuksgelus (Nov 8, 2013)

So I take it no one is going to explain exactly how a High difficulty fight for Marco against Joker goes down :/?


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## Lawliet (Nov 9, 2013)

Whoever is standing at the end, it's going to be an extreme difficult win.


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## warismydestiny (Nov 9, 2013)

marco takes this low-mid dificulty


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## Captain Altintop (Nov 9, 2013)

DD is on Jozu's level imo, therefore Marco wins high diff.


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## RF (Nov 9, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Whoever is standing at the end, it's going to be an extreme difficult win.



Uhm no. 

Marco enters his phoenix form and flies towards Doflamingo without sustaining a single injury. He then proceeds to slit Doflamingo's throat open.

Low difficulty because he had to invest some effort.


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## Lmao (Nov 9, 2013)

Taking a look at the Marco vs Vista thread and back here again, I got to say you people don't make much sense

So Marco mid-high diffs Vista but low-mid diffs DD, who is generally accepted as stronger than Vista?


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## Ajin (Nov 9, 2013)

I doubt that Marco can regenerate severed head. Could go either way.

And i like Marco, but seriously he sometimes is horrible overrated.


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## Orca (Nov 9, 2013)

Marco High diff.


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## Sentomaru (Nov 9, 2013)

Depends.

If Luffy beats Doflamingo all by himself this arc, then Marco mid diff.
If it's Luffy + Law vs. an already slightely exhausted Doflamingo, then it's also possible that Doflamingo would push Marco to high diff.

Overall I think Doflamingo is closest to Jozu (stronger than Vistard and weaker than Marco).


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## Vengeance (Nov 9, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Uhm no.
> 
> Marco enters his phoenix form and flies towards Doflamingo without sustaining a single injury. He then proceeds to slit Doflamingo's throat open.
> 
> Low difficulty because he had to invest some effort.



ehm     .


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## RF (Nov 9, 2013)

Vengeance said:


> ehm     .



I wasn't serious.


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## Atlantic Storm (Nov 9, 2013)

I don't think Doflamingo can win here. 

His abilities are pretty good, but they're not really ideal for someone like Marco, who can probably just very easily regenerate against those attacks. Equally, Marco may experience some difficulty hurting Doflamingo as well, given the fact that he casually blocked an attack from Sanji, but Marco's attacks are stronger and can also pierce due to the talons. It's not going to be as easy here, especially considering where Sanji was quickly countered by a swipe, Marco can just take it, regenerate and continue to claw at him.


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## Imagine (Nov 9, 2013)

Lmao said:


> Taking a look at the Marco vs Vista thread and back here again, I got to say you people don't make much sense
> 
> So Marco mid-high diffs Vista but low-mid diffs DD, who is generally accepted as stronger than Vista?


Typical OL.


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## Vengeance (Nov 9, 2013)

Lmao said:


> Taking a look at the Marco vs Vista thread and back here again, I got to say you people don't make much sense
> 
> So Marco mid-high diffs Vista but low-mid diffs DD, who is generally accepted as stronger than Vista?



^^



Sakazuki said:


> I wasn't serious.



Ah ok, sometimes I am not sure concerning you


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## Tiger (Nov 9, 2013)

Asked four people outside NF, they all agreed that both fighters could potentially deal lethal damage to one another, but Marco would always win because of his regeneration.

When it was suggested, by me due to this thread, that Marco could just stomp Doflamingo(which is what I consider a low-diff win), they laughed.

_From people not infected by forum-disease._


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## Ryuksgelus (Nov 9, 2013)

How did they explain Joker injuring him in the first place? Those strings are passing right through the Phoenix form and Marco can easily tank 5-colored, that couldn't incapacitate Sanji, with his real body. 



Ziomek said:


> I doubt that Marco can regenerate severed head. Could go either way.
> 
> And i like Marco, but seriously he sometimes is horrible overrated.



No one has their head severed in OP. He had a giant hole in his head the first time we saw his Phoenix powers. That Phoenix form can regenerate from anything. 

Joker is barely breaching skin on Marco's real body.


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## Akitō (Nov 9, 2013)

Law said:


> Asked four people outside NF, they all agreed that both fighters could potentially deal lethal damage to one another, but Marco would always win because of his regeneration.
> 
> When it was suggested, by me due to this thread, that Marco could just stomp Doflamingo(which is what I consider a low-diff win), they laughed.
> 
> _From people not infected by forum-disease._



This. 

I've also talked to people outside this forum 'bout Doflamingo and Marco (not a battle between them, but just about their overall strength), and they'd all laugh if I suggested the idea that Marco was a lot stronger than Doflamingo. This Marco = Admiral and Admiral > Doflamingo chain has been blown up to the extent that we've lost all sense of reasonability from it. I agree that Marco is a bad match-up for Doflamingo and that he's stronger, but I find it pretty ridiculous to believe that he'd win with anything less than mid-diff.

Just because he can end the fight healthy and not injured doesn't mean that it's an easy fight. The nature of his power makes it so that looking at the end result is deceptive. He can regenerate from everything that Doflamingo can throw at him, but the very fact that he _will_ have to regenerate from stuff is an indication that it won't be an easy fight. I don't think Doflamingo can push Marco to the point where he can't regenerate anymore, but I think he'll come pretty close. So while Marco might end the fight looking like he's at 100%, it'd have actually been a hard battle that he could've lost had Doflamingo had a bit more attack power. Or, at least that's how I think it'd go.


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## Ryuksgelus (Nov 10, 2013)

Akitō said:


> This.
> 
> I've also talked to people outside this forum 'bout Doflamingo and Marco (not a battle between them, but just about their overall strength), and they'd all laugh if I suggested the idea that Marco was a lot stronger than Doflamingo. This Marco = Admiral and Admiral > Doflamingo chain has been blown up to the extent that we've lost all sense of reasonability from it. I agree that Marco is a bad match-up for Doflamingo and that he's stronger, but I find it pretty ridiculous to believe that he'd win with anything less than mid-diff.
> 
> Just because he can end the fight healthy and not injured doesn't mean that it's an easy fight. The nature of his power makes it so that looking at the end result is deceptive. He can regenerate from everything that Doflamingo can throw at him, *but the very fact that he will have to regenerate from stuff is an indication that it won't be an easy fight. *I don't think Doflamingo can push Marco to the point where he can't regenerate anymore, but I think he'll come pretty close. So while Marco might end the fight looking like he's at 100%, it'd have actually been a hard battle that he could've lost had Doflamingo had a bit more attack power. Or, at least that's how I think it'd go.



Do we just count anytime attacks pass through the Phoenix as regeneration? I think people take Oda's comment on their being a "limit" the wrong way. When Marco takes damage to his real body like from Garp & Kizaru those hits take stamina away from him. If he is constantly taking damage eventually the flames will be unable to help. It does not mean that after Doflamingo cuts up the bird-form for a while eventually the flames disappear. 

Replace Kizaru with Doflamingo and how exactly does that go? He blocks Marco with only moderately more difficulty? That is the joke. He fails to block Marco at all or has his arm broken and launched into the ground.


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## Sayonara (Nov 10, 2013)

Marcos never going to be any trouble but I still say mid-diff because suspect Dofla may not go down easy.


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## Akitō (Nov 10, 2013)

Ryuksgelus said:


> Do we just count anytime attacks pass through the Phoenix as regeneration?



Isn't that what his phoenix form does? Any time that he transforms into that mode, his wounds heal. That's why he was able to withstand Kizaru's lasers: because he was in the phoenix form and his wounds healed immediately. Otherwise, how else would he have survived Kizaru's attack? Unless you're suggesting that he has a logia-type ability, he must've been regenerating at that point. 

I don't see why he'd have to use more 'regenerative' power to heal from attacks that are on his real body than attacks that are on his phoenix form. He's healing himself either way - it's just that his phoenix form is what allows him to heal, and so when he has it activated, he automatically heals. Hence, when Kizaru attacked him, he wasn't hampered at all because his wounds immediately healed. 

The way I see it is that if he has to heal too much, he extends to his limit. If an enemy can make him heal so much that he has to go past his limit, then he won't be able to heal anymore. 



> Replace Kizaru with Doflamingo and how exactly does that go? He blocks Marco with only moderately more difficulty? That is the joke. He fails to block Marco at all or has his arm broken and launched into the ground.



Well, that's your interpretation. I think Doflamingo would be able to block Marco with more difficulty. You can't envision Doflamingo contending with Marco because you think there's a level difference between them. I don't see it that way because I don't interpret Doflamingo's scenes with the Admirals as being overly disadvantageous for him. He's certainly weaker than them, but not to the extent that you're making him out to be in my opinion.


----------



## Tiger (Nov 10, 2013)

People in this thread acting like Marco is a logia that ignores haki, too.

No wonder he's so revered around here.


----------



## Ryuksgelus (Nov 10, 2013)

^^^^^^^^^^^
No we're saying Joker isn't on the level where his attacks are getting remotely close to Marco's regen limit. 



Akitō said:


> Isn't that what his phoenix form does? Any time that he transforms into that mode, his wounds heal. That's why he was able to withstand Kizaru's lasers: because he was in the phoenix form and his wounds healed immediately. Otherwise, how else would he have survived Kizaru's attack? _*Unless you're suggesting that he has a logia-type ability,*_ he must've been regenerating at that point.



That is exactly what I'm saying. Anything that has hit him in Phoenix form has passed through him no different than Croc or Smoker. Kizaru's lasers and all those bullets when trying to go for Ace all passed through.



> I don't see why he'd have to use more 'regenerative' power to heal from attacks that are on his real body than attacks that are on his phoenix form. He's healing himself either way - it's just that his phoenix form is what allows him to heal, and so when he has it activated, he automatically heals. Hence, when Kizaru attacked him, he wasn't hampered at all because his wounds immediately healed.



Who said anything about "more"? It's that despite healing he still suffered from the real damage done to his body. Eventually that damage is going to build up. Either he becomes too physically drained for the flames to come out or like some other immortal characters his real body can no longer handle being constantly regenerated. 



> The way I see it is that if he has to heal too much, he extends to his limit. If an enemy can make him heal so much that he has to go past his limit, then he won't be able to heal anymore.



Even if it worked like this Doflamingo isn't the person to cause this level of damage. How many times would he have to hack way with his strings to equal the barrage Marco took from Kizaru like nothing?




> Well, that's your interpretation. I think Doflamingo would be able to block Marco with more difficulty. You can't envision Doflamingo contending with Marco because you think there's a level difference between them. I don't see it that way because I don't interpret Doflamingo's scenes with the Admirals as being overly disadvantageous for him. He's certainly weaker than them, but not to the extent that you're making him out to be in my opinion.



What evidence is there at all that Doflamingo has anywhere near top tier physical strength? Enough to take blows that blew admirals away with only a bit more discomfort. The same Admirals who can physically contend with WB who is obviously above Prime Chinjao. There is no evidence. The only thing you can do is downplay how close Marco is physically to the Admirals and show Joker is not close. The only thing anybody could use to support Doflamingo's strength was holding back Jozu. We now know that was done with Parasite which apparently controls opponents nervous systems. Bypassing physical strength for the most part.

You chose to believe Joker is not dramatically physically weaker than the Admirals. That is all there really is too it. Any scene that shows there is a gap you'll just downplay as hyperbole, red herring, misdirection by Oda, say is inconclusive, whatever.


----------



## Akitō (Nov 11, 2013)

Ryuksgelus said:


> That is exactly what I'm saying. Anything that has hit him in Phoenix form has passed through him no different than Croc or Smoker. Kizaru's lasers and all those bullets when trying to go for Ace all passed through.



Then why would he use his phoenix form to shield Whitebeard from Kizaru's barrage? If they're just going to pass through him anyway, him getting in the way of them wouldn't have had any impact. His phoenix form doesn't give him logia - it's implied and shown to be just healing. 



> Who said anything about "more"? It's that despite healing he still suffered from the real damage done to his body. Eventually that damage is going to build up. Either he becomes too physically drained for the flames to come out or like some other immortal characters his real body can no longer handle being constantly regenerated.



I don't think that's how it works. The way I remember Oda's phrasing, there's a limit to the regeneration itself not because Marco's too tired to regenerate, but because the regeneration doesn't go that far. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a limit for the regeneration itself - it would be a limit for Marco. Also, I do believe that regenerating wounds does take away some stamina from Marco, which is another aspect to the regeneration limit: if he heals too much, he runs out of stamina and won't be able to do it anymore. 



> What evidence is there at all that Doflamingo has anywhere near top tier physical strength? Enough to take blows that blew admirals away with only a bit more discomfort. The same Admirals who can physically contend with WB who is obviously above Prime Chinjao. There is no evidence. The only thing you can do is downplay how close Marco is physically to the Admirals and show Joker is not close. The only thing anybody could use to support Doflamingo's strength was holding back Jozu.



There isn't any concrete evidence either way to reprimand or compliment him physically. We just have subtle hints. Anything that I use to support Doflamingo you'll say isn't 'concrete' or conclusive of anything, so there isn't any point in me debating with you to be honest. If you don't want to believe that Doflamingo casually restraining Jozu in the war is evidence of him being near that level, then I don't know what to say to you. 

I look at Aokiji vs. Doflamingo and Fujitora vs. Doflamingo as scenes demonstrating Doflamingo's clear inferiority, but I also think they're scenes that portray Doflamingo as being pretty close to them. Not close enough that he'd give them a high-diff. fight IMO, but close enough that he's able to contend with them without getting completely outmatched. 



> We now know that was done with Parasite which apparently controls opponents nervous systems. Bypassing physical strength for the most part.



I think they're strings that attach to the user's body. It wouldn't make sense if they work on the inside of one's body because then Law wouldn't have been able to cut them. 



> You chose to believe Joker is not dramatically physically weaker than the Admirals. That is all there really is too it. Any scene that shows there is a gap you'll just downplay as hyperbole, red herring, misdirection by Oda, say is inconclusive, whatever.



I could say the same of you too. The only difference is that I have more people backing my position on this forum, and a hell of a lot more people that I know in real life backing my position. That isn't an argument, I know, but I'm just saying.


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## Akitō (Nov 11, 2013)

Ryuksgelus said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^
> No we're saying Joker isn't on the level where his attacks are getting remotely close to Marco's regen limit.



I'm confused. 



			
				Me said:
			
		

> Unless you're suggesting that he has a logia-type ability, he must've been regenerating at that point.





			
				You said:
			
		

> That is exactly what I'm saying. Anything that has hit him in Phoenix form has passed through him no different than Croc or Smoker.



Are you not saying that Marco essentially has a logia-type ability?


----------



## Ryuksgelus (Nov 12, 2013)

Akitō said:


> Then why would he use his phoenix form to shield Whitebeard from Kizaru's barrage? If they're just going to pass through him anyway, him getting in the way of them wouldn't have had any impact. His phoenix form doesn't give him logia - it's implied and shown to be just healing.



He was clearly flapping his wings so they would explode on his body. 

What was the point in bringing this up. Even if the scenes seemingly contradicted each other the latter two scenes still happened. 



> I don't think that's how it works. The way I remember Oda's phrasing, there's a limit to the regeneration itself not because Marco's too tired to regenerate, but because the regeneration doesn't go that far. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a limit for the regeneration itself - it would be a limit for Marco. *Also, I do believe that regenerating wounds does take away some stamina from Marco,* which is another aspect to the regeneration limit: if he heals too much, he runs out of stamina and won't be able to do it anymore.



The usual idea people have makes no sense because it implies an Manapool type deal for Marco's regen. 

I didn't disagree with that. Problem is the Phoenix is basically invulnerable. The only real wounds he sustained in the war were Kizaru's lasers and Garps Punch. Those hits drain his stamina. You say you don't think that his how it works then retype almost exactly what I said :/.



> There isn't any concrete evidence either way to reprimand* or compliment him physically. *We just have subtle hints. Anything that I use to support Doflamingo you'll say isn't 'concrete' or conclusive of anything, so there isn't any point in me debating with you to be honest. *If you don't want to believe that Doflamingo casually restraining Jozu in the war is evidence of him being near that level,* then I don't know what to say to you.



But your first instinct *is to compliment his strength* and not acknowledge Marco is in the same league as Prime Chin, Admirals, Teach, etc. You're completely fine with giving Joker the benefit of the doubt that he was only joking(not semi-serious) about Sanji's being strong. Yet if I say Marco's punches&kicks should be City level you'll find the notion ridiculous call BS on any power scaling telling us it should be that high? No benefit of the doubt there. That has to be proved 110%.

So what you're saying is even with new Information you refuse to reevaluate an old position you had? His ability is called parasite. That implies it effects people on some sort of physiological. It does not wrap around them and control them via force. Can you at least entertain that idea?




> I look at Aokiji vs. Doflamingo and Fujitora vs. Doflamingo as scenes demonstrating Doflamingo's clear inferiority, *but I also think they're scenes that portray Doflamingo as being pretty close to them.* Not close enough that he'd give them a high-diff. fight IMO, but close enough that he's able to contend with them without getting completely outmatched.



That doesn't even make sense. He is clearly fearsome and can defend himself but no better than Sanji could defend himself from Joker. Actually Sanji looked better as he took actual damage and still kept going and with knowledge would likely last longer. Fujitora shows he wasn't kidding when his first attack was just a test since he later casually summons multiple meteors while eating Raman. Oda gives us scenes like that just to emphasis that situations that are make Joker sweat are casual affairs for the top brass. 

My problem with that is that you probably cannot detail what a fight between Joker and an Admiral looks like. You just make those comments without visualizing anything in your head. Likely because the moment you do you realize how ridiculous the fight playing out would be. Either the Admirals are weak(like Kizaru in Movie Z) or Joker is doing outlandish thing we'll never see him do in the manga.



> I think they're strings that attach to the user's body. It wouldn't make sense if they work on the inside of one's body because then Law wouldn't have been able to cut them.



Why? Cut what? No one has escape from Joker's Parasite yet. 



> I could say the same of you too. The only difference is that I have more people backing my position on this forum, and a hell of a lot more people that I know in real life backing my position. That isn't an argument, I know, but I'm just saying.



Then don't bring up "MY posse" is bigger than yours stuff to begin with. You're also generalizing. Why can you say the same to me? Why exactly do you think I chose to believe Marco is strong, instead of Marco being much stronger because all the evidence points to him being so.

I look at things simply. Marco is portrayed better against Admirals. Marco is portrayed as a pseudo-Yonkou capable of stopping Teach Pre-skip. Marco gets power scaling from Chin's headbutt and Younger(but not Prime) Garp. Joker is portrayed poorly in the former scenarios. Joke is not portrayed as a pseudo-Yonkou. We may even meet more Joker level Pirates in the form of more CoC users. Joker does not get scaled to Chin&Garp Mountain level attacks. 

Any reason I give you and some others have some non-obviously complex and/or convoluted counter interpretation of a scene  to support the conclusion you want to be true. 




Akitō said:


> I'm confused.



I don't see what is so confusing. Even if Marco has a limit Jokers not the one making Marco reach that limit. Comment was to Law.


----------



## Akitō (Nov 13, 2013)

Ryuksgelus said:


> He was clearly flapping his wings so they would explode on his body.
> 
> What was the point in bringing this up. Even if the scenes seemingly contradicted each other the latter two scenes still happened.



Can you post the links for the latter two scenes? I don't remember them. 

The reason I brought that up was _because_ it contradicts the two scenes that supposedly show that Marco has a logia-type ability. That should be rather obvious, don't you think? If there are contradictions, then either interpretation is valid. 



> The usual idea people have makes no sense because it implies an Manapool type deal for Marco's regen.
> 
> I didn't disagree with that. Problem is the Phoenix is basically invulnerable. The only real wounds he sustained in the war were Kizaru's lasers and Garps Punch. Those hits drain his stamina. You say you don't think that his how it works then retype almost exactly what I said :/.



Why does the manapool idea not make any sense? If you use an ability, it tires you out. The more you use it, the more tired you get. That works with anything that has any sort of physical activity involved in it. 

You didn't disagree with what exactly? You do realize that we're still working under different interpretations of what's considered regeneration, right? So no, you did disagree with what I said. 



> But your first instinct *is to compliment his strength* and not acknowledge Marco is in the same league as Prime Chin, Admirals, Teach, etc. You're completely fine with giving Joker the benefit of the doubt that he was only joking(not semi-serious) about Sanji's being strong. Yet if I say Marco's punches&kicks should be City level you'll find the notion ridiculous call BS on any power scaling telling us it should be that high? No benefit of the doubt there. That has to be proved 110%.



Um, what are you talking about? I don't understand where this came from to be honest. Are you copying and pasting your posts from another debate or something? Because literally none of your assumptions about my beliefs are true in the slightest. I do acknowledge that Marco is in the same league as the Admirals. I do acknowledge that Doflamingo was semi-serious about complimenting Sanji - that bears little relevance to Doflamingo's strength though because Sanji _is_ strong and we don't know the scale of strength that Doflamingo was using. I also acknowledge that Marco's punches and kicks are pretty damn strong; I have no idea what this 'city level' nonsense is, but if you mean that they can damage top-tiers, then yeah, I think they're 'city level'. 

So yeah. This entire paragraph must've been originally addressed to someone else, or you've been deceiving yourself all this time and not really thought about what's factual and what's just your own weird presuppositions. 



> So what you're saying is even with new Information you refuse to reevaluate an old position you had? His ability is called parasite. That implies it effects people on some sort of physiological. It does not wrap around them and control them via force. Can you at least entertain that idea?



I can entertain it. Do I think it's right? No, of course not. I find it amusing that you're stating this as a fact. Doflamingo uses strings as his ability - when he controls someone, it's as if there are puppet strings from above controlling their body. This is further indicated when Doflamingo first used parasite and there was a vague shadow of hundreds of strings from the sky being latched onto the soldiers of Dressrosa. 'Parasite' could easily refer to the parasitic nature of the ability: the strings latch onto your body and take control over you. 



> That doesn't even make sense. He is clearly fearsome and can defend himself but no better than Sanji could defend himself from Joker. Actually Sanji looked better as he took actual damage and still kept going and with knowledge would likely last longer. Fujitora shows he wasn't kidding when his first attack was just a test since he later casually summons multiple meteors while eating Raman. Oda gives us scenes like that just to emphasis that situations that are make Joker sweat are casual affairs for the top brass.
> 
> My problem with that is that you probably cannot detail what a fight between Joker and an Admiral looks like. You just make those comments without visualizing anything in your head. Likely because the moment you do you realize how ridiculous the fight playing out would be. Either the Admirals are weak(like Kizaru in Movie Z) or Joker is doing outlandish thing we'll never see him do in the manga.



Doflamingo didn't seem fearful of Fujitora's meteor to me: he seemed more angry and annoyed because he shouldn't have had an Admiral attacking him. And anyway, having an Admiral attack you, whether you're weak or not, especially when you're trying to get your prized possession back (who happens to be literally standing a few feet away from you), is a reasonable circumstance to be nervous about. His 'fear' (and I don't think it was fear to begin with) could've easily been fear for him not getting Ceasar back. 

And I can envision a fight between Doflamingo and an Admiral. I'd see Doflamingo using his string ability and the Admiral using his Devil Fruit ability; I'd see them hitting one another, but the Admiral having the very clear advantage. I don't get what you mean by 'I can't detail what a fight would look like'. Of course I can; I wouldn't believe it if I couldn't. 



> Then don't bring up "MY posse" is bigger than yours stuff to begin with. You're also generalizing. Why can you say the same to me? Why exactly do you think I chose to believe Marco is strong, instead of Marco being much stronger because all the evidence points to him being so.



Because if I come up with arguments in favor of Doflamingo, you'll shut them down by saying I'm misinterpreting the scenes and that it was a 'cheap-shot' or due to a 'hax' fruit or whatever other excuse you actually believe is true. I'm not saying anything is necessarily absolutely false, but I _can_ say the same thing to you. In fact, you and I can say exactly what you said in your previous post to anyone who ever disagrees with us and it'll be a true statement. Really, these few sentences:



> You chose to believe Joker is not dramatically physically weaker than the Admirals. That is all there really is too it. Any scene that shows there is a gap you'll just downplay as hyperbole, red herring, misdirection by Oda, say is inconclusive, whatever.



...are the basis of any real disagreement in this manga. 

All the evidence points towards him being stronger according to your own interpretation. You don't seem to understand that. It's all fine and dandy to say that I'm misinterpreting scenes from your point of view, but that isn't really anything that I wouldn't have expected. 



> I look at things simply. Marco is portrayed better against Admirals. Marco is portrayed as a pseudo-Yonkou capable of stopping Teach Pre-skip. Marco gets power scaling from Chin's headbutt and Younger(but not Prime) Garp. Joker is portrayed poorly in the former scenarios. Joke is not portrayed as a pseudo-Yonkou. We may even meet more Joker level Pirates in the form of more CoC users. Joker does not get scaled to Chin&Garp Mountain level attacks.



Marco wasn't portrayed too hotly against Akainu, who's basically equal to Aokiji, who is the one who Doflamingo fought. See how things aren't as simple as the surface interpretation that you think is absolutely correct? And how exactly does Marco get scaled to mountain level attacks again through Garp and Chinjao? Surely you don't equate the punch that Garp hit Marco with to the one that he attacked Chinjao with? That's a faulty assumption right there, so that scaling-chain falls apart right there. 



> Any reason I give you and some others have some non-obviously complex and/or convoluted counter interpretation of a scene  to support the conclusion you want to be true.



Again, it's only convoluted and complex in your eyes. 



> I don't see what is so confusing. Even if Marco has a limit Jokers not the one making Marco reach that limit. Comment was to Law.



Let me clarify then.



			
				Law said:
			
		

> People in this thread *acting like Marco is a logia*...





			
				You said:
			
		

> No we're saying Joker isn't on the level where his attacks are getting remotely close to Marco's regen limit.



The implication here is that you do _not_ believe that Marco is a logia, but rather believe that Doflamingo isn't strong enough to bypass his regeneration. 

But then you say this:



			
				You said:
			
		

> That is exactly what I'm saying. Anything that has hit him in Phoenix form has passed through him no different than Croc or Smoker.



...in response to this:



			
				Me said:
			
		

> Unless you're suggesting that he has a logia-type ability, he must've been regenerating at that point.



I essentially asked if you believed that Marco has a logia-type ability, and you said yes. Earlier you said that isn't what you believed. Hence, I'm confused.


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## Coruscation (Nov 13, 2013)

Strange that people seemed to have such different interpretations of what Parasite was. Personally I viewed it as just the MT version of his usual ability. Less magnitude but by far greater area of effect. What he would use to control a greater number of small people at once (maybe by only using 1 string per person, while powerful people demand accordingly larger number of them?).


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## 2Broken (Nov 13, 2013)

Marco does not possess any powers of a logia, in fact his fruit differs from a logia in three major ways.

1. Marco has to have a solid tangible body at all times, while a logia does not. Marco can be touched, hit and grabbed without the assistance of haki.

2. Marco cannot produce anything, only selectively transform parts of his body, while a logia can produce their element. Put simply Marco doesn't make any blue fire, his Phoenix body is simply made out of it. This is why he can't shoot out flames to block attacks and has to take them head on.

3. Marco's fruit rapidly heals him from his injuries, while a logia's fruit offers no healing at all. If a logia is hit with an attack (that's the hard part) they have to heal as a "normal" person would. Marco can heal damn near instantly, because of his fruit.

Both Marco's fruit and logia fruits greatly protect against injure, but how they do so and in every other area of functionality they are different. They have there own set of strengths and weaknesses.


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## Ryuksgelus (Nov 13, 2013)

Akitō said:


> Can you post the links for the latter two scenes? I don't remember them.
> 
> The reason I brought that up was _because_ it contradicts the two scenes that supposedly show that Marco has a logia-type ability. That should be rather obvious, don't you think? If there are contradictions, then either interpretation is valid.



There is no contradiction to begin with. Even if there was it only means two separate things are going on. Not that there are two different interpretations. You can't cherrypick which one you want to be correct or claim one supercedes two latter scenes for no good reason. 



> Why does the manapool idea not make any sense? If you use an ability, it tires you out. The more you use it, the more tired you get. That works with anything that has any sort of physical activity involved in it.



Because it has never worked that way for any one else in the manga so why would Marco be the exception when there is a perfectly viable alternative.



> You didn't disagree with what exactly? You do realize that we're still working under different interpretations of what's considered regeneration, right? So no, you did disagree with what I said.



That receiving actual wounds injures Marco. The only disagreement is what constitutes a wound. I'm saying attacks on the Phoenix result in no wounds, you are saying every time it is pierced or blown up it is actually taking injuries.



> Um, what are you talking about? I don't understand where this came from to be honest. Are you copying and pasting your posts from another debate or something? Because literally none of your assumptions about my beliefs are true in the slightest. I do acknowledge that Marco is in the same league as the Admirals. I do acknowledge that Doflamingo was semi-serious about complimenting Sanji - *that bears little relevance to Doflamingo's strength though because Sanji is strong and we don't know the scale of strength that Doflamingo was using. *I also acknowledge that Marco's punches and kicks are pretty damn strong; *I have no idea what this 'city level' nonsense is, *but if you mean that they can damage top-tiers, then yeah, I think they're 'city level'.



No. That is very relevant to Joker's strength in regards to Admiral and by proxy Marco. These people do not need to even seriously defend themselves from Joker. So unless you explain to me why not it seems the gap between Marco/Admirals and Joker is actually larger than the gap between Sanji and Joker. 

Nonsense? Why do you frequent this type of sight if general terminology is viewed as nonsense by you? I'm saying Marco's melee attacks pack more power than finishers from M.Trio level people and Mid-range and Upper tier attacks from Joker. If Joker can be hurt by even non-finishers from say Luffy than Marco is breaking his arm like I said earlier. 



> So yeah. This entire paragraph must've been originally addressed to someone else, or you've been deceiving yourself all this time and not really thought about what's factual and what's just your own weird presuppositions.



You've plainly stated that you seriously believe that Joker would not criticaly injured by a kick from Marco. That tells me alot. I'm simply covering all bases.


> I can entertain it. Do I think it's right? No, of course not. I find it amusing that you're stating this as a fact. Doflamingo uses strings as his ability - when he controls someone, it's as if there are puppet strings from above controlling their body. This is further indicated when Doflamingo first used parasite and there was a vague shadow of hundreds of strings from the sky being latched onto the soldiers of Dressrosa. 'Parasite' could easily refer to the parasitic nature of the ability: the strings latch onto your body and take control over you.



I'm confused. Who argued that the strings attach to their bodies. Only argument is what part are they attaching to. The old idea was that they either just stuck to people skin or wrapped around their joins. Parasite impies a deeper type of control either skeletal or nervous. My point is Joker being remotely near Admiral/Marco levle hinges on the idea he was controlling Jozu with pure strength. Many have gone as far to say he simply chose not to control Jozu like Atmos. 



> *Doflamingo didn't seem fearful of Fujitora's meteor to me*: he seemed more angry and annoyed because he shouldn't have had an Admiral attacking him. And anyway, having an Admiral attack you, whether you're weak or not, especially when you're trying to get your prized possession back (who happens to be literally standing a few feet away from you), is a reasonable circumstance to be nervous about. His 'fear' (and I don't think it was fear to begin with) could've easily been fear for him not getting Ceasar back.



And? It was still a casual attack that caused him to break a sweat. He broke a sweat against Sanji and now is likely not in a completely one-sided affair with Law. The point is there are fewer and fewer reasons to believe he can trouble Fujitora as much as these youngsters are troubling him.



> And I can envision a fight between Doflamingo and an Admiral. *I'd see Doflamingo using his string ability and the Admiral using his Devil Fruit ability;* I'd see them hitting one another, but the Admiral having the very clear advantage. I don't get what you mean by 'I can't detail what a fight would look like'. Of course I can; I wouldn't believe it if I couldn't.



lol. You didn't detail a single thing.* No one can be anymore vague than this*. So if I asked youto "detail" how Caesar lost to Luffy you think "well Luffy used his DF, evaded Caesar's attacks, and hit him really", is an acceptable answer?

No the question is what did he evade, how did he evade, what kind of attacks were enough to injure Caesar, etc. Same for Joker. How does he stop Kizaru from kicking him in the face, shooting him with lasers, closing in behind him and slashing him with his light saber, etc.if Kizaru is seriously trying to kill him? Why would Joker's defense be enough to stop Kizaru/Akainu/Aokiji. Why can't they just tank his attacks even if he can bypass their intangibility. What reason do you have for believe he could to begin with? What reason do you have to believe they aren't too fast for him to properly defend himself? 



> Because if I come up with arguments in favor of Doflamingo, you'll shut them down by saying I'm misinterpreting the scenes and that it was a 'cheap-shot' or due to a 'hax' fruit or whatever other excuse you actually believe is true. I'm not saying anything is necessarily absolutely false, but I _can_ say the same thing to you. In fact, you and I can say exactly what you said in your previous post to anyone who ever disagrees with us and it'll be a true statement. Really, these few sentences:
> 
> 
> 
> ...are the basis of any real disagreement in this manga.



My point is you and some others came up with a conclusion first and then made arguments to support it later. 



> All the evidence points towards him being stronger according to your own interpretation. You don't seem to understand that. It's all fine and dandy to say that I'm misinterpreting scenes from your point of view, but that isn't really anything that I wouldn't have expected.



You're just sidestepping the entire argument now. Why do you believe Marco.


> Marco wasn't portrayed too hotly against Akainu, who's basically equal to Aokiji,* who is the one who Doflamingo fought. *See how things aren't as simple as the surface interpretation that you think is absolutely correct? *And how exactly does Marco get scaled to mountain level attacks again through Garp and Chinjao? Surely you don't equate the punch that Garp hit Marco with to the one that he attacked Chinjao with?* That's a faulty assumption right there, so that scaling-chain falls apart right there.



The fact you even classify that as a fight shows how slanted your viewpoint is. If we actually compare the situations Marco charged Akainu and is later shown to be fine. Marines were also helping out Akainu so it wasn't solely him vs. the Commanders. Joker was huffing and puffing from a brief encounter and his subordinates were scared for his life. 

No the point is Marco is a top tier. His strength should be in the same general ballpark as other top tiers. This is Garp 6 years before he started fighting against Roger meaning he got stronger since taking out Chin. Also in OP fighters can dish out roughly what they can take. Meaning Marco even before Regen should be city-low mountain level in durability. Joker by all indications is city level at best in attack&durability. Meaning Joker needs to go all out to do what Marco can do with his basic skills. 



> Again, it's only convoluted and complex in your eyes.



No. I can follow very easily. That does not make it any less convoluted. Once you decide to believe the less obvious interpretation you're choosing to make things more complicated then it has to be. It's fine to be open to different interpretations but you and some others create these interpretations because you don't like the more clear one.



> The implication here is that you do _not_ believe that Marco is a logia, but rather believe that Doflamingo isn't strong enough to bypass his regeneration.
> 
> But then you say this:
> 
> ...



lol. Nice of you to cut-off the last part of Law's sentence. 

A logia....*that ignores Haki.* That is what I disagreed with.


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## Akitō (Nov 13, 2013)

Ryuksgelus said:


> There is no contradiction to begin with. Even if there was it only means two separate things are going on. Not that there are two different interpretations. You can't cherrypick which one you want to be correct or claim one supercedes two latter scenes for no good reason.



Okay. Can you post the scenes where the lasers went through Marco's phoenix body? 



> Because it has never worked that way for any one else in the manga so why would Marco be the exception when there is a perfectly viable alternative.



Because Marco's ability is a lot more physical than almost anything we've seen - he's literally reviving himself. Not only do we have Oda saying that there's a limit to his regeneration (and most readers interpret that as there being a 'manapool' from which he can draw from), but it also simply isn't intuitive for him to be able to infinitely regenerate.



> That receiving actual wounds injures Marco. The only disagreement is what constitutes a wound. I'm saying attacks on the Phoenix result in no wounds, you are saying every time it is pierced or blown up it is actually taking injuries.



Yes. Thus, I didn't say the same exact thing you said because we're working under different definitions. Use better wording next time because the way you phrased it, I was supposedly repeating what you said. 



> So unless you explain to me why not it seems the gap between Marco/Admirals and Joker is actually larger than the gap between Sanji and Joker.



I answered that in the paragraph you quoted. 



> Nonsense? Why do you frequent this type of sight if general terminology is viewed as nonsense by you? I'm saying Marco's melee attacks pack more power than finishers from M.Trio level people and Mid-range and Upper tier attacks from Joker. If Joker can be hurt by even non-finishers from say Luffy than Marco is breaking his arm like I said earlier.



I've never seen anyone in this section use the term 'city-level', sorry. I find it hard to imagine Marco's kicks blowing up an entire city, if that's what the definition of 'city-level' is. That doesn't seem to be the nature of his attacks anyway. 

And why exactly is Doflamingo's finisher weaker than Marco's normal melee attacks? I don't get where that came from, really. You just seem to be throwing out all these ideas without realizing that they're all just your opinions.



> You've plainly stated that you seriously believe that Joker would not criticaly injured by a kick from Marco. That tells me alot. I'm simply covering all bases.



And so your first reaction is to type a paragraph that randomly attacks viewpoints that have very little relevance to my beliefs? That's a massive waste of time, but whatever. 



> Parasite impies a deeper type of control either skeletal or nervous. My point is Joker being remotely near Admiral/Marco levle hinges on the idea he was controlling Jozu with pure strength.



Once again, this is all just your interpretation. You seem to think this is the obvious answer, but I and the majority of this forum certainly don't. I already explained what 'parasite' could've been referring to, so I'll just ask you to read above. When I said 'body', I meant the outside of the body (i.e. the joints). 



> And? It was still a casual attack that caused him to break a sweat. He broke a sweat against Sanji and now is likely not in a completely one-sided affair with Law. The point is there are fewer and fewer reasons to believe he can trouble Fujitora as much as these youngsters are troubling him.



I already explained why he broke a sweat against Fujitora - it had not much to do with the strength of the attack in my opinion. And he eradicated Sanji pretty easily, and the sole reason that Sanji fared as well as he did (and that wasn't too well at all, mind you) was because Doflamingo twice was focused on something else. So yeah, I don't think someone like Marco would have done much better than Doflamingo against Sanji considering the circumstances. 



> lol. You didn't detail a single thing.* No one can be anymore vague than this*. So if I asked youto "detail" how Caesar lost to Luffy you think "well Luffy used his DF, evaded Caesar's attacks, and hit him really", is an acceptable answer?



Is this your argument towards me? You're asking me to waste my time to write a fanfiction of 'Doflamingo vs. an Admiral'? Sorry, but I'm not going to waste my time doing that. I know that whatever I write, you'll respond with, "Doflamingo would never be able to do that", so I just won't even bother. 



> No the question is what did he evade, how did he evade, what kind of attacks were enough to injure Caesar, etc. Same for Joker. How does he stop Kizaru from kicking him in the face, shooting him with lasers, closing in behind him and slashing him with his light saber, etc.if Kizaru is seriously trying to kill him?



Look, I don't think you understand what's going on. It should be clear by now to you that we have very different interpretations of their strength levels. Asking me to write a full-fledged battle between them is a massive waste of time because we don't have the same idea of where they stand relative to one another. 

You ask me how he would evade an Admirals' attacks: I think he would simply dodge them just like any other top-tier character would. You ask me how he would stop Kizaru from kicking him in the face: I think he would either dodge it or attack him before he was hit. 

I don't understand what logical reason you would have in asking me to detail a fight when you know full well that you and I disagree with the most fundamental aspect of this argument: their strength levels. It's simply poor argumentation to be honest. 



> My point is you and some others came up with a conclusion first and then made arguments to support it later.



Um, no. And I'm really not sure what your 'point' has to do with what you accused me before of doing. 



> You're just sidestepping the entire argument now. Why do you believe Marco.



I don't exactly know what your question is here, but I'll assume that you want me to detail why I believe Marco is close to Doflamingo. The main points are:

A.) Doflamingo vs. Jozu scene
B.) Aokiji vs. Doflamingo and Fujitora vs. Doflamingo - I don't think they were nearly as one sided as you probably think they are; I think the first scene demonstrated that Doflamingo was able to fend off an Admiral pretty well without being thoroughly outclassed. 
C.) Him not being hurt at all during the war and outclassing M3 level fighters rather easily - that's something I think only people that are fairly close to the Admiral-level can do. 



> The fact you even classify that as a fight shows how slanted your viewpoint is. If we actually compare the situations Marco charged Akainu and is later shown to be fine. Marines were also helping out Akainu so it wasn't solely him vs. the Commanders. Joker was huffing and puffing from a brief encounter and his subordinates were scared for his life.



Sorry, but I won't believe that Akainu had any significant help from the Marines because there were no major Marines shown helping him. Marco meanwhile had Vista there to help him, who's likely much stronger than any of the irrelevant Marines that were helping Akainu. 

Also, the main portion of their confrontation in my opinion was the fact that Marco and Vista combined couldn't hurt Akainu even though they had a free hit on him. That's pretty poor portrayal. 

And Doflamingo was hit by an attack from Aokiji, who literally has one-shot capabilities. I wouldn't expect someone that's weaker than Aokiji but fairly close to him to be able to fend off a free attack from him without struggling - he has a massive offense even relative to his own strength level. We saw what he did against Jozu: that should show you that he especially has an incredible offense out of all the Admirals. He might not have been trying his hardest at all, but his offense is so deadly in my mind that even a fraction of it is crazy strong.



> No the point is Marco is a top tier. His strength should be in the same general ballpark as other top tiers. This is Garp 6 years before he started fighting against Roger meaning he got stronger since taking out Chin. Also in OP fighters can dish out roughly what they can take. Meaning Marco even before Regen should be city-low mountain level in durability. Joker by all indications is city level at best in attack&durability. Meaning Joker needs to go all out to do what Marco can do with his basic skills.



Just because they're similar in overall strength doesn't mean they have similar physical strengths. That's a ridiculous notion in my mind. Garp has time and time again been emphasized as a tremendous physical fighter, whereas Marco most likely focuses on the defensive aspect of fighting. You can't really get more different than that. 



> No. I can follow very easily. That does not make it any less convoluted. Once you decide to believe the less obvious interpretation you're choosing to make things more complicated then it has to be. It's fine to be open to different interpretations but you and some others create these interpretations because you don't like the more clear one.



Ugh, no. They're less obvious interpretations *to you*. They're convoluted and complex *to you*. What is so hard exactly to understand about that? 



> lol. Nice of you to cut-off the last part of Law's sentence.
> 
> A logia....*that ignores Haki.* That is what I disagreed with.



This gave me a good laugh. Learn to write and argue properly please. You said 'no' in response to Law's post, and then you write a sentence that doesn't explicitly address any specific portion of Law's post (neither the ignores Haki part nor the logia part). Any logical person would think that you were disagreeing with his entire post. I'm sorry if I can't read your mind and understand that you were referring to the 'ignores Haki' portion.


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## shinjojin (Nov 14, 2013)

A tough call in my opinion, but I'm gonna go with Marco with high difficulty.


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## Ryuksgelus (Nov 14, 2013)

Akitō said:


> Okay. Can you post the scenes where the lasers went through Marco's phoenix body?





Clearly going through him in the upper-bottom left panel.

This is dragging too much. 

I was not asking for you to write fan fiction. I was merely asking you to give a brief rundown for how Joker actually defends himself from an Admiral. That should not be complicated if you actually have good reasons to believe that.

I can very easily explain why Chopper cannot defend himself from Rob Lucci. And then explain why Luffy can defend himself from Rob Lucci. The fact you refuse to do so tells me you very likely have not honestly thought it through or you envision a very nerfed version of an Admiral. Much like what you'd see of strong characters in movies or filler anime episodes.

Clearly until you see the gap no amount of explanation is going to work. It is simply too much to go over.




> This gave me a good laugh. Learn to write and argue properly please. You said 'no' in response to Law's post, and then you write a sentence that doesn't explicitly address any specific portion of Law's post (neither the ignores Haki part nor the logia part).* Any logical person would think that you were disagreeing with his entire post.* I'm sorry if I can't read your mind and understand that you were referring to the 'ignores Haki' portion.



I'm sorry but is English not  your first language? I don't understand how you can break a segment into fragments and claim I was responding to only the latter portion. The "No" was in reference to Law's entire line of reasoning. That people *believe *Marco *is a logia that ignores haki.*

That is one sentence with no break in it so how do you, a third-party, come in and try to claim the "No" only refers to Marco being a logia(like) df user part of the sentence:/? Or that it refers to both parts separately. 

I was not saying, "No he is not a logia" *and* "No he does not ignore haki" and I don't see how you possibly could have read it that way.


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## Akitō (Nov 14, 2013)

Ryuksgelus said:


> Clearly going through him in the upper-bottom left panel.



Er, no. His body isn't just one solid mass when he's in his phoenix form. He has flames that extend outward from his body, and that's what the lasers were hitting. 



> I was not asking for you to write fan fiction. I was merely asking you to give a brief rundown for how Joker actually defends himself from an Admiral. That should not be complicated if you actually have good reasons to believe that.



What the hell are you talking about? I don't understand what type of answer you're even expecting. Is 'Doflamingo dodges Kizaru's lasers' not a valid response, or are you literally looking for a sequence of events. Either way, I hope you realize how poor of an argument you're making - we have inherently different interpretations on their strength levels, so asking me to detail how a fight would go with the intention of trying to catch me off-guard because you don't think I can is absolutely hilarious to me. 



> The fact you refuse to do so tells me you very likely have not honestly thought it through or you envision a very nerfed version of an Admiral. Much like what you'd see of strong characters in movies or filler anime episodes.



Dear God. How hard is it to understand that asking me to detail how a fight would go is completely inane when we have different interpretations of their levels? I can tell you right now that according to _your interpretation_, my version of the Admiral would look extremely nerfed. Are you able to comprehend that any fight that I would detail is based on my own interpretation and would thus be illogical to you, or are you so oblivious to how this argument would work that you think you can somehow 'win' the debate by trying to trap me into writing something I know you're going to disagree with anyway? 



> I'm sorry but is English not  your first language? I don't understand how you can break a segment into fragments and claim I was responding to only the latter portion. The "No" was in reference to Law's entire line of reasoning. That people *believe *Marco *is a logia that ignores haki.*
> 
> That is one sentence with no break in it so how do you, a third-party, come in and try to claim the "No" only refers to Marco being a logia(like) df user part of the sentence:/? Or that it refers to both parts separately.
> 
> I was not saying, "No he is not a logia" *and* "No he does not ignore haki" and I don't see how you possibly could have read it that way.



Holy shit. Your understanding of this sequence is terrible. Not only is there a glaring strawman argument in these ridiculous paragraphs, but you don't even seem to understand what the 'no' was encompassing. 

Why in the fuck would you ignore the fact that after you said 'no', you detail something completely different to him being a logia? You didn't respond with, 'No, he is a logia that...'. You simple said, 'No, I just don't believe that Doflamingo can bypass the regeneration'. The logical implication from this sentence is that Marco isn't a logia who ignores Haki - he simply has a regeneration ability that Doflamingo can't bypass (i.e. he is not a logia). After all, that's the opinion of the vast majority. 

Look at the context of what you wrote and then you might understand why your writing is so ambiguous; having said that, I wouldn't really expect you to understand anyway because you seem to be completely incapable of looking at things from another person's perspective.


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## Ryuksgelus (Nov 16, 2013)

Akitō said:


> Er, no. His body isn't just one solid mass when he's in his phoenix form. He has flames that extend outward from his body, and that's what the lasers were hitting.


 
Well different interpretations then. Clearly see a hole forming in his right wing. Not an puncture wound that sends fire away from the body.



> What the hell are you talking about? I don't understand what type of answer you're even expecting. Is 'Doflamingo dodges Kizaru's lasers' not a valid response, or are you literally looking for a sequence of events. Either way, I hope you realize how poor of an argument you're making - we have inherently different interpretations on their strength levels, so asking me to detail how a fight would go with the intention of trying to catch me off-guard because you don't think I can is absolutely hilarious to me.



Off guard? No I'm simply trying to gauge how capable you think either is. This is the *battledome. *Describing how strong you think a fighter is and giving reasons why they can fight someone else is the entire point of this sub-section.

It's not a valid response because you are not explaining how he dodges multiple lasers, Kizaru himself coming in for a kick or lights saber swing, or simply raining down hundreds of light blasts. You keep talking about different interpretations but this is an entire community focused on objectively judging how strong a fighter actually is based on numerous factors. It's not just *my* interpretation it's a consensus derived from lots of nerdy analysis. You can either get on board or provide detailed reasons why the consensus is flawed. Not eye-ball feats and use your imagination to say what you want to say.

If you think Kizaru is not that much faster than Doflamingo say why. If you think Joker can evade Kziaru for a prolonged period of time explain why. If you think he can use his abilities to somehow defend or counter Kizaru's explain why. If you think he is physically strong enough to tango with Marco explain why. This is only difficult if you know deep down your reasons are actually shallow or flawed.



> Dear God. How hard is it to understand that asking me to detail how a fight would go is completely inane when we have different interpretations of their levels? I can tell you right now that according to _your interpretation_, my version of the Admiral would look extremely nerfed. *Are you able to comprehend that any fight that I would detail is based on my own interpretation and would thus be illogical to you,* or are you so oblivious to how this argument would work that you think you can somehow 'win' the debate by trying to trap me into writing something I know you're going to disagree with anyway?



Can you comprehend that knowing exactly what you envision moves the conversation along by allowing me to critique what you think? Which in turn allows you to either agree or disagree...hopefully with a good reason. All I am reading here is that you have your way of thinking and are completely not open to hearing why it *may* be flawed in some way. Why would a non bias person do that? And stop with this trap shit. *What I am asking is exactly what this sub-section is for.* 



> Holy shit. Your understanding of this sequence is terrible. Not only is there a glaring strawman argument in these ridiculous paragraphs, but you don't even seem to understand what the 'no' was encompassing.



This is beyond idiotic. You're telling me what my "no" referred too :/?

The no means: I do not believe Marco is a logia. I do not believe he ignores Haki. It does not by extension say I also do not believe Marco does not have the* logia-like* properties I discussed with you.  

Again stop with this perspective shit. I have a pretty good grasp on what you think of Joker, Kizaru, and Marco. If I am wrong it's because you refused to show me what you really believe. I very much doubt you understand why I do not think Joker lasts long against Marco or an Admiral.


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## Freechoice (Nov 16, 2013)

Law said:


> People in this thread acting like Marco is a logia that ignores haki, too.
> 
> *No wonder he's so revered around here.*



I think you're thinking of the wrong forum. Revered? 

Stop making me laugh. He is far from revered.


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## Akitō (Nov 16, 2013)

Ryuksgelus said:


> Off guard? No I'm simply trying to gauge how capable you think either is. This is the *battledome. *Describing how strong you think a fighter is and giving reasons why they can fight someone else is the entire point of this sub-section.



Then you worded your request extremely poorly. I can explain why I think Doflamingo is strong enough to battle Marco. I will not explain how exactly it will go and write my own fiction on what would happen - asking me 'what he will evade', 'how will he evade it', and so on is an awful way of arguing. You're requesting a story-like explanation almost. Asking me to detail a general outline of why I think their levels are similar (and thus their fight would be a fairly close one) is more reasonable. 

Fortunately for me, I've already briefly explained my reasoning in a previous post in this thread. You can critique that, although I can tell you right now that I'd be surprised if you could make me take up a different interpretation. I've argued this point many times with other posters, so I've got a pretty good handle on what I believe; this isn't just some one-second thought that I've produced.



> I very much doubt you understand why I do not think Joker lasts long against Marco or an Admiral.



No, I think I have a good idea of what your thought process is.



Ryuksgelus said:


> I was not saying, "No he is not a logia" *and* "No he does not ignore haki and I don't see how you possibly could have read it that way.





Ryuksgelus said:


> The no means: I do not believe Marco is a logia. I do not believe he ignores Haki.



Work on your wording please. Here's a direct contradiction in two consecutive posts.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 16, 2013)

Marco wins Low-diff.

Terrible match-up for DD.


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## Bansai (Nov 17, 2013)

Doflamingo's threads can certainly not harm Marco, but can he control him? Are his hands fast enough to control Marco while he's flying? I personally think that Doflamigo can do that, as Marco has no intel at all and won't try to avoid being caugth by his strings. That, however, is not enough to defeat Marco. I'd give it to Marco with high difficulty.


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