# RPG of the Year Discussion: Mass Effect 2 or Fallout: New Vegas?



## Shippingr4losers (Dec 6, 2010)

RPG of the Year Discussion: Mass Effect 2 vs. Fallout NV

*Long Sigh* 

Before we begin, some disclaimers:

1)	I personally think these are both great games and worth picking up. Were I the judge, I would put these two games into two separate categories. However, reality says otherwise.
2)	I do not, I repeat, DO NOT, want this to become a Bioware vs. Bethesda discussion. I hate the idea of having a Bioware vs. Bethesda discussion. But, let?s face facts: this IS a Bioware vs. Bethesda discussion. The fact of the matter is, we?re comparing two games of two different styles and asking ourselves which is best RPG. So, I kindly ask that *the discussion in general be limited to the specific games mentioned only. *
3)	Anyone deeming that Fable 3 deserves best RPG of the Year will be mocked. Openly mocked and ridiculed to next week. For your safety, please do not mention Peter Molyneux?s hype balloon here.
4)	*Spoilers, Spoilers Everywhere. Take caution.*

Competitions are hardly fair. At times, they pit you into contests and categories without taking in variables that could influence things, believing the general categories themselves are acceptable measures of value. Were I the judge, were I the panelist, I would compare a Fallout to a Dragon Age. But, in reality, I?m not a judge, and I don?t organize competitions. 

Spike does. Saturday, December 11th, will mark the VGAs, yet another bloated awards ceremony about our favorite topic: vidya games. Now, putting aside that I fail to see Spike TV as a legitimate network, I truly think it?s unfair that these two games be put into the same category when they deserve to be placed in different ones. 

I think Mass Effect 2 is a great game.

I think Fallout: New Vegas is a great game.

But they?re good games for different reasons. One is a 2nd of a trilogy, improving on the faulty mechanics of the first game while the other continues what made the game great as well as improve on severely lacking parts.

However, voters will pick and as the old saying goes: There can be only one. 

With that, let?s truly analyze these works and see which one comes out on top.

*Gameplay: *Gameplay wise, ME2 has made the most improvement. Cleaning up the clunky elements plaguing the first game ME2 has created an action RPG shooter that has significantly improved with a new shielding system and lots of classes to explore. Of course, in exchange, they?ve had to strip away some of the more Roleplaying elements such as a simpler leveling up system, probing in exchange for Mako exploring and lacking the extensiveness of how you can upgrade your guns.

New Vegas, on the other hand, feels more like an expansion pack. It doesn?t really change anything, save for a couple of new features. However, that?s a minor bump that is the Fallout world. You are allowed to explore every bit of the Mojave wasteland with lots of Vaults, areas and places to explore. 

*Graphics:* While big, Bethesda games don?t tend to show a great deal in? visuals. The characters themselves look rather generic, save for the occasional Nightkin Grandmother, and have rather stilted expressions. On the other hand, Mass Effect 2 looks gorgeous, taking full effect that it?s a cinematic game. Expressions, ships and the galaxy are all rendered in great detail and gives you that big movie feel when you play it. Putting aside Miranda?s face modeling, the game looks great. (You know it?s true!)

*Sound:* Fallout: New Vegas gives you a radio from the start, allowing you to listen in on stations. Of course, these stations can easily get repetitive and feel like they?re running on a loop. (Yes, Mr. New Vegas. I know there was a Courier left for dead at Good Springs. You don?t need to keep telling me.) It does also feature talent from some key voice actors such as the lovable Felicia Day as Veronica, Matthew Perry as Benny and Wayne Newton as Mr. New Vegas.

However, comparison pales to Mass Effect 2, not in terms of voice talent (Yvonne Stahovski, Martin Sheen, Keith David) but in terms of Original Sound Track. Being cinematic, they choose to go with an orchestral score highlighted at key points, raising the effectiveness of its scenes. (The OST, while good, doesn?t come across as Jack Wall?s best work. In fact, I can and will always debate that ME1 had far superior music.) 

*Difficulty:* Fallout: NV has a new addition called Hardcore mode, allowing an extra bit of challenge aside from upping the combat. Here, players must keep full inventory of several other factors (sleep, eat and drink) as well as several changes to the new gaming experience. While rather teeth gnashing, it does provide that extra challenge for those who really want to test themselves. 

Mass Effect 2 has? higher difficulty settings. Of course, the opponents do get tougher, especially with new shielding, but by the end when you?ve gotten all the upgrades, when you?ve gotten a certain Salarian?s power to a certain point, you can breeze through the game and get your achievement points. 

*Story:* Here?s the difficult discussion. Now, were this two years ago, I would?ve totally argued in favor for Mass Effect. However, it?s not 2 years ago, and here we have.

In Mass Effect 2, you must stop Collectors from kidnapping human colonies by gathering a team, earning their loyalty and going through the Omega-4 relay. In order to do that, you must visit planets and do tasks in order to get from point A to point B. After meeting certain requirements, you will be forced into missions relating to the collectors. However, for the majority of the game, you?re doing tasks for characters thus making more of a character-driven story than one driven by the plot.


----------



## Shippingr4losers (Dec 6, 2010)

Not that I don?t mind that approach, I felt that the story itself was disconnected. At points, you?re doing tasks in order to resolve situations that have little to nothing to do with the collectors. They?re problems only related to the certain character that must be accomplished in order to survive. Add to the fact that some characters can only be unlocked after a certain point, and done in a way to ensure survival, causes the game to be a bit more linear than previously thought. 

Fallout: New Vegas, on the other hand, encourages open-endedness. Unlike its predecessor, Fallout 3, it involves you getting to know at least 2 factions of the Mojave and deciding their respective fates before the end game. You, a third party, are being called on by two warring parties to either serve the failing and over taking New California Republic or joining the glory that is the blood-thirsty Caesar?s Legion. Or do you take Mr. House?s deal and let him have Vegas? Or do you take Yes Man?s offer on an independent Vegas? In which way, there are familiar elements to each quest, but there?s a different tone to the reasoning and task each quest can be done, such as is Fallout.  

*Climax:* In Mass Effect 2, you take the plunge to ensure no humans get abducted again, as well as survive. Depending on how your dedication to the crew and how you upgraded your ship as many from 0 to 12 casualties can occur in the mission, including your own. The challenge is, then, to pick the right choices, combinations and crew members to do each area. 

Of course, I?d be lying if said that the final part was anything more than success/death animations put together. Cinematic as it is, one can?t help the feeling this is just one situation only with a specific character. The final choice in the game, whether to keep the Collector base or destroy it, will be revealed in the 3rd game, as the trilogy states. 

(Translation: Buy Mass Effect 3 if you want to know how it ends!)

Fallout: New Vegas, having the benefit as well as the disability of being a stand alone title, has you pick a side (thoughout the game as both the NCR and Caesar will not allow you to work for House or Yes Man) and joining for the battle of Hoover Dam. Of course, I?d also be lying if I said there was anything more than 2 playthroughs: Working with NCR and defeating Lanius or Working with Caesar and killing Oliver. (The House and Yes Man endings are just variations of New Vegas endings). It does, however, have the benefit of showing you the sum of your actions and how things turn out at the end. Different factions will not co-exist with others. House will not tolerate the Brotherhood of Steel. The Kahns are dead set against the NCR. And the Boomers are reluctant to outsiders. What happens to each faction is for you to decide. 

*Characters:* Oh look! It?s an ice queen with an English accent loyal only to her cause, until her personal quest, when she becomes a love interest. What?s that? You have an estranged son and a dead wife?

I?m just kidding.

In truth, the Mass Effect characters DO remind you of a lot of previous Bioware characters, but they are fleshed out enough to give them depth. In fact, the great part of Mass Effect 2 is dealing with the character?s backstories and finding out what really makes them tick.

However, too often do these quests involve personal issues about how crappy their past lives were and most likely dealing with a relative of some sort. I?m talking less in favor of Miranda and Jacob and more in favor of Mordin and Legion, whose personal quest involves the galaxy itself. 

Fallout: New Vegas greatly improves its companion dynamic by 1) giving them a decent backstory 2) giving them an actual motivation and 3) having certain decisions be tied in with certain factions. The New Vegas characters are greatly improved. Not only do the companion characters have a sidequest that?s actually important, but they also have certain ties with factions. This creates conflict, which drives a story.

Do you help Boone on his quest, only to incur the Legion?s wrath? Do you blow up the Brotherhood of Steel bunker, knowing Veronica will lose her closest thing to a family? Do you let Cass kill the Van Graffs or sell her out and lead her to become ashes. Characters and decisions have consequences and allow you to further explore the decisions you have to make. 

*Presentation:* Mass Effect 2 may start to feel? familiar at points, but for good reason. The sound, the gameplay and the visuals make for one hell of a ride. It is polished, clean and eventually leads into a climax that?s engaging if not a wee bit repetitive. It may have some loading screens, but for good reason.

New Vegas, on the other hand, is one of the buggiest titles released this year. Large as it may be, there are crashes abound, level up glitches, disappearing squadmates and just about everyother bug you can think of. Naturally, Bethesda will release a patch, but hey, you wouldn?t need a patch unless something?s wrong with the game. This, unfortunately, is the Achilles heel to the game. Gamers will accept lots of things: stupid story, lacking visuals, repetivness but won?t accept bugs. Bugs are the very bane of a gamer?s enjoyment and once they occur, they get pissed off. This, unforntuately, may be NV?s downfall. 

So, those were my two cents. Let?s here yours. Don?t forget to vote for your favorite RPG as well as other categories, tune into Spike TV December 11th, and please.

Be courteous to each other.


----------



## Yakuza (Dec 6, 2010)

Mass Effect 2.


----------



## Violent by Design (Dec 6, 2010)

Sadly I haven't had the pleasure of playing either of these two franchises. American RPGS have been real strong lately aye?


----------



## cha-uzu (Dec 6, 2010)

Mass Effect 2


----------



## CrazyMoronX (Dec 6, 2010)

RPG of the year?

There were RPGs released this year?


----------



## Adonis (Dec 6, 2010)

Mass Effect 2 was an RPG?

I love it to death, but that shit was an action shooter with a karma meter. Having the option to upgrade a very limited array of powers from "shitty" to "useful" does not an RPG make.


----------



## Velocity (Dec 6, 2010)

CrazyMoronX said:


> RPG of the year?
> 
> There were RPGs released this year?



FFXIII and Golden Sun are the only ones I can think of...


----------



## Shuntensatsu (Dec 6, 2010)

Neither of these games are RPGs.

They are both shooters in which you can level up.


----------



## The Boss (Dec 6, 2010)

Comparing Mass Effect 2 to Fallout New Vegas? 

Mass Effect is probably cooler... I guess. It has all that fancy shiny graphics that makes you jizz every time you see it, and sexy guns. It also has characters that makes you jizz as well. It does a excellent job at creating characters that seems so life like... and not to mention they attach you to those character... so even if the plot is a bit iffy the game will still be enjoyable. I really like what they did to the gameplay, and Bioware _suuure_ knows how to deliver to their fans. Anyways, I spent hours and hours on this game. Even if it doesn't have those traditional "RPG elements", it's still a really fun game.  

I really enjoyed New Vegas too. I spent hours and hours in my first run... and I'm still playing it. Doing a 2nd run right now, and it's like a new game. (Jizz face.) I'm discovering things I didn't even knew existed or was possible to do in my first run. Sure graphics aren't as sexy as ME2, and they don't go the whole yard with attaching you to certain characters, but I find myself intrigued by the game. Even with the glitches, it makes me rage/quit sometimes, but the game is to damn good for me to actually stop playing it. Gameplay is really fun, and the whole aspect of perks and skills used to customize your character that actually has an impact in the game is pretty cool. I'm impress. 

Over all as much as I do love the Mass Effect series and them delicious graphics/characters, I have to give it to New Vegas this year. There's a simple charm to it that makes me love it so very much.


----------



## Dreikoo (Dec 6, 2010)

FFXIII was released in late 09 though...well in Japan at least. If you wanna count it that takes my vote easily but if you don't then Trinity Universe all the way.


I don't expect many people to go for it over mainstream things obviously but i'm being honest here.


----------



## Shippingr4losers (Dec 6, 2010)

Lyra said:


> FFXIII and Golden Sun are the only ones I can think of...



*Linear Hallways FTW! *


----------



## Trollism (Dec 6, 2010)

New Vegas was surprisingly good .. way better than Fallout 3 at least.

But I wouldn't call ME 2 an RPG, so NV wins this by default.

Overall this was a very disappointing year for RPGs yet again.


----------



## Nodonn (Dec 6, 2010)

I don't really care when FFXIII was released, that game was so bad one should be shot for nominating it for RPG of the year.


----------



## Dreikoo (Dec 6, 2010)

Shippingr4losers said:


> *Linear Hallways FTW! *



Living is a series of rooms, who you get paired in those rooms with and what you do with that is what makes your life. 

How you go from room to room is insignificant.


----------



## Violent by Design (Dec 6, 2010)

I guess there was a shortage of cheesy anime characters this year. For some reason, I imagine that if people in fall out new vegas had spikey hair, tacky colors and were shooting fireballs instead of guns, it would be considered "more of an RPG".


----------



## The Boss (Dec 6, 2010)

Violent By Design said:


> I guess there was a shortage of cheesy anime characters this year. For some reason, I imagine that if people in fall out new vegas had spikey hair, tacky colors and were shooting fireballs instead of guns, it would be considered "more of an RPG".



.. but New Vegas is an RPG. Am I being trolled here...?


----------



## Violent by Design (Dec 6, 2010)

If New Vegas plays like Fall Out 3 then it certainly is an RPG. Not sure how it isn't.


----------



## The Boss (Dec 6, 2010)

Violent By Design said:


> If New Vegas plays like Fall Out 3 then it certainly is an RPG. Not sure how it isn't.



Sooo.. you haven't even played it.  Hmmm ok. Well Fallout 3 was an RPG though, maybe just not a good one but I enjoyed it. 

I consider it to be an RPG. Epx, skills/perks that affects the game, multiple ways to do a certain quest and endings, make your own character... ect. What else does an RPG need?

Wait are you agreeing with me? I read it as if you think more people will consider it an RPG if it had shiny desu desu stuff in it... IDK.. I haven't heard anyone calling New Vegas not an RPG.


----------



## Violent by Design (Dec 6, 2010)

The Boss said:


> Sooo.. you haven't even played it.  Hmmm ok. Well Fallout 3 was an RPG though, maybe just not a good one but I enjoyed it.
> 
> I consider it to be an RPG. Epx, skills/perks that affects the game, multiple ways to do a certain quest and endings, make your own character... ect. What else does an RPG need?



Uhm, my post was implying that people who don't think Fall out 3 is an RPG are wrong.


----------



## The Boss (Dec 6, 2010)

Violent By Design said:


> Uhm, my post was implying that people who don't think Fall out 3 is an RPG are wrong.



Oh ok. You said this,


> I imagine that if people in fall out new vegas had spikey hair, tacky colors and were shooting fireballs instead of guns, it would be considered "more of an RPG".



so I got confuse.


----------



## Violent by Design (Dec 6, 2010)

The Boss said:


> Oh ok. You said this,
> 
> 
> so I got confuse.



That's called satire.


----------



## The Boss (Dec 6, 2010)

Violent By Design said:


> That's called satire.



Sarcasm doesn't work well online.


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 6, 2010)

Shuntensatsu said:


> Neither of these games are RPGs.
> 
> They are both shooters in which you can level up.



Actually given to the level of customization of your character and variety of ways to play through the game I'd say Fallout New Vegas is truer to the spirit of RPGs than most modern RPGs can claim. 


I love both games but I'm leaning towards Fallout for sheer staying power. I gobbled up most of Mass Effect 2 in a single playthrough. I'd probably be stretching it if I said I encountered even ten percent of NV on my first playthrough.


----------



## stavrakas (Dec 6, 2010)

Both are great games but ME2 wins with its witty/funny dialogues and interesting characters, which is something every Bioware game shares. Plus, the cool graphics and awesome soundtrack.


----------



## Wan (Dec 6, 2010)

CrazyMoronX said:


> RPG of the year?
> 
> There were RPGs released this year?





Adonis said:


> Mass Effect 2 was an RPG?
> 
> I love it to death, but that shit was an action shooter with a karma meter. Having the option to upgrade a very limited array of powers from "shitty" to "useful" does not an RPG make.





Lyra said:


> FFXIII and Golden Sun are the only ones I can think of...





Shuntensatsu said:


> Neither of these games are RPGs.
> 
> They are both shooters in which you can level up.



It depends on what your definition of RPG is.

In the Western hemisphere, "RPG" for a long time has meant not only that you have stats which you can improve, but you have an game world where you are free to do the main story quests and a variety of sidequests in the order you wish. They also often have a conversation system where you make choices that effect the game world around you.  Also, Haven't played NV so I can't speak for that, but Mass Effect 2 definitely meets those qualifications.  And since it is in fact a Western game, it should be judged by those standards.

In Japan, it's a bit different.  The storyline and order of events is often fixed, but there usually is still a world that can be explored.  It's hard to justify FFXIII as an RPG even by these standards, since it's basically a movie with a bunch of walking in straight lines between scenes...


----------



## left4lol (Dec 6, 2010)

Funny how this changed from which one is the best RPG to which one is an RPG
anyway voting New Vagas just because the sheer amount of mod that this game have. that basically make all complain about New Vegas irrelevant because you could always fix what you didn't like. hell you could basically create the whole mass effect cast


----------



## Violent by Design (Dec 6, 2010)

lol yeah, im sorry but how is FF13 more of an RPG than Fallout or Mass Effect? If you're going to call Fallout and Mass Effect shooters then I'll just call FF13 a simulator.


----------



## FalseMemorySyndrome (Dec 7, 2010)

Nodonn said:


> I don't really care when FFXIII was released, that game was so bad one should be shot for nominating it for RPG of the year.



Can I lick your feet?


----------



## Dreikoo (Dec 7, 2010)

Violent By Design said:


> lol yeah, im sorry but how is FF13 more of an RPG than Fallout or Mass Effect? If you're going to call Fallout and Mass Effect shooters then I'll just call FF13 a simulator.



FFXIII is an rpg because EVERYTHING about the game revolves around the characters of whom the roles you are playing in a cinematic and impressive fashion. There is so much content that is main-plot-relevant and the game clearly focuses on this aspect. Free roaming things like fallout can be w-rpgs but those games are more or less about you as the player doing things and not the characters themselves, since there's so many choices and things you can skip or not.

In a way, with the fallout style you don't play the role of the character, you become the character and do what you would do if you were in that situation. This, to fans of proper turn based Japanese rpgs, is pointless. We do like the linear, lovingly crafted tale which feels like playing a book, we don't want to feel like we became the hero, we just want to be immersed in a story even more so than if we read the book, by means of playing the characters we are involved with.

 Now, there is obviously some limitation as to what you are able to do even in fallout, and the overall plot is mostly the same with only slight variation as to how it concludes based on small choices and such things, which gives it a smaller importance and scope when compared to the main plot of a game which does nothing else other than talk, present and flesh out it's plot as though it's the only thing that matters. 


Guess what, to fans of rpgs since snes or even before, that's pretty much what matters, action gameplay, online, multiplayer, achievements, all these things are meaningless when compared to a loved story which took you in and never let go until it sadly said it's goodbyes in a way which carved it into your soul.


----------



## CrazyMoronX (Dec 7, 2010)

Lyra said:


> FFXIII and Golden Sun are the only ones I can think of...


I see. Well there was this:



Dreikoo said:


> FFXIII was released in late 09 though...well in Japan at least. If you wanna count it that takes my vote easily but if you don't then Trinity Universe all the way.
> 
> 
> I don't expect many people to go for it over mainstream things obviously but i'm being honest here.


 Trinity Universe wasn't that great though. I haven'y played Golden Sun yet and FFXIII sucked.

That leaves the few obscure DS RPGs that I didn't like (Lufia, for instance), and a bunch of games I probably just didn't play.


----------



## Dreikoo (Dec 7, 2010)

Dunno, i loved trinity universe, i suppose you need to be a fan of all those series to enjoy it to the max.


----------



## Wan (Dec 7, 2010)

Dreikoo said:


> FFXIII is an rpg because EVERYTHING about the game revolves around the characters of whom the roles you are playing in a cinematic and impressive fashion. There is so much content that is main-plot-relevant and the game clearly focuses on this aspect.



And how is that any different from a movie?  Really, you could take out all the repetitive fights and the walking in straight lines from FFXIII and you would have the same experience.  You aren't role-playing, because you don't actually control anything that the characters do.


----------



## Violent by Design (Dec 7, 2010)

Dreikoo said:


> FFXIII is an rpg because EVERYTHING about the game revolves around the characters of whom the roles you are playing in a cinematic and impressive fashion. There is so much content that is main-plot-relevant and the game clearly focuses on this aspect. Free roaming things like fallout can be w-rpgs but those games are more or less about you as the player doing things and not the characters themselves, since there's so many choices and things you can skip or not.
> 
> *In a way, with the fallout style you don't play the role of the character, you become the character and do what you would do if you were in that situation.* This, to fans of proper turn based Japanese rpgs, is pointless. We do like the linear, lovingly crafted tale which feels like playing a book, we don't want to feel like we became the hero, we just want to be immersed in a story even more so than if we read the book, by means of playing the characters we are involved with.
> 
> ...



Yes...that makes it an RPG lol. You're playing a role. And you've got to be kidding me, RPGs like Fallout (not the actual franchise, but American based ones where you're taking over a role) existed way before the SNES era, when being an RPG fan meant you were a nerd.

In fact it is often common in RPGs that the main characters are blank templates so people can imagine themselves in the situation. Super Mario RPG, Final Fantasy 7 & Chrono Cross are perfect examples of this. Could you actually explain Chrono's personality? No, you can't because he is not suppose to have one, it is suppose to be what evers yours is. This is why many RPGs give you the option of changing a characters name.

And plot and character development doesn't dictate whether a game is an RPG or not. What are you going to tell me next that Pokemon or FF5 are not RPGs either?



> Now, there is obviously some limitation as to what you are able to do even in fallout, and the overall plot is mostly the same with only slight variation as to how it concludes based on small choices and such things, which gives it a smaller importance and scope when compared to the main plot of a game which does nothing else other than talk, present and flesh out it's plot as though it's the only thing that matters.


Most "Japanese" RPGs are like that.


----------



## FalseMemorySyndrome (Dec 7, 2010)

This arguement has taken place numerous times before. People need to accept that WRPGs (Fallout, ME, TES) and JRPGs (SMT, FF) are both RPGs, despite the differences. This continuel fanboy war between the two gets irratating. JRPG fans claim it has to be Turn-Based, WRPGs fans claim you have to "live the character". Both are right; two completely different takes on the genre.


----------



## Violent by Design (Dec 7, 2010)

Exactly, they're both RPGs. To be honest, people dismiss a lot of RPGs just because of their aesthetics.

The entire turn based thing is stupid as well. A lot of people who will claim action RPGs are not RPGs will also claim Tales of Symphonia is an RPG.


----------



## Dreikoo (Dec 7, 2010)

Violent By Design said:


> Yes...that makes it an RPG lol. You're playing a role. And you've got to be kidding me, RPGs like Fallout (not the actual franchise, but American based ones where you're taking over a role) existed way before the SNES era, when being an RPG fan meant you were a nerd.
> 
> In fact it is often common in RPGs that the main characters are blank templates so people can imagine themselves in the situation. Super Mario RPG, Final Fantasy 7 & Chrono Cross are perfect examples of this. Could you actually explain Chrono's personality? No, you can't because he is not suppose to have one, it is suppose to be what evers yours is. This is why many RPGs give you the option of changing a characters name.
> 
> ...


You see, the point which went right over your head is that the fans of ONLY snes and beyond videogame rpgs have come to appreciate a style which is like my description.

Also, another point to this is that, when YOU are the character, it instantly detracts from the story. Unless you're arbitrarily trying to be evil or good, you'll usually just play like normal, making the hero of fallout and ME and dragon age all the same person. That is a terrible thing since the protagonist is the key to a story and when you could just as well be a space cop or a knight or a survivor of the nuclear war it makes everything sorta irrelavant. In the rpg however the protagonist, even the silent one, acts the way the game's story meant for him to act. Professional game-makers are better at doing that task, despite the lack of the masturbatory satisfaction from thinking YOU are the one doing these things.


 I suppose since i never think of myself as doing anything and only think of the characters doing these things, that type of play doesn't interest me. On the other hand i do get to be more open and able to enjoy things which i may not have done myself due to this, so i don't complain.



Chrono Trigger had all those endings but they were all in accordance to the way the characters were and not to your desires. Chrono is the typical Shonen protagonist, brave, naive towards women, good, self-sacrificing. He's an archetype, the fact that you need him to speak and don't see everything he does through the game as a loud personality statement tells me you didn't play the game attentively enough.





> Exactly, they're both RPGs. To be honest, people dismiss a lot of RPGs just because of their aesthetics.
> 
> The entire turn based thing is stupid as well. A lot of people who will claim action RPGs are not RPGs will also claim Tales of Symphonia is an RPG.


Action rpgs are action rpgs, they're not just rpgs cause they're not turn based. What's hard about that?

It's not like i didn't call fallout a "w-rpg". >_>


----------



## Yagami1211 (Dec 7, 2010)

FFXIII is not a Role Playing Game because the Role is being played for you.

Mass Effect & Fallout on the other hand ... You can play your role as you see fit.


----------



## Wan (Dec 7, 2010)

Dreikoo said:


> Also, another point to this is that, when YOU are the character, it instantly detracts from the story. Unless you're arbitrarily trying to be evil or good, you'll usually just play like normal, making the hero of fallout and ME and dragon age all the same person. That is a terrible thing since the protagonist is the key to a story and when you could just as well be a space cop or a knight or a survivor of the nuclear war it makes everything sorta irrelavant. In the rpg however the protagonist, even the silent one, acts the way the game's story meant for him to act. Professional game-makers are better at doing that task, despite the lack of the masturbatory satisfaction from thinking YOU are the one doing these things.



No, they're not the same person.  Each has their own unique background.  Shepard from Mass Effect has two variables with three options each pertaining to his background, and they effect certain missions in the game.  The main character from KotOR has his unique, spoiler-ific past.  In KotOR II the main character has a very mysterious past pertaining to her actions in the Mandalorian Wars. In Alpha Protocol, you can choose a variety of backgrounds, which also can influence your missions.  In Dragon Age you have a grand total of six very different backgrounds which you play yourself.  Just because you make the decisions does not make them all the same character.  Commander Shepard =/= Michael Thorton =/= The Jedi Exile =/= Revan =/= The Warden.

Let me put it this way.  If a dwarf Warden from Dragon Age was put in Mass Effect, would the story unfold the same way?  No, of course not.  Not simply because the available choices would change, but because the way the main character is treated would change.


----------



## Dreikoo (Dec 7, 2010)

The choice-making part of all of them is the same. It's like they share a brain. You're just telling me what the game says they are, the fact that all of these different things actually behave like one person is what i'm having a problem with. I never said that in their stories the characters were never supposedly different, i said that since they are all "insert yourself style" characters they end up being interchangeable since you're the one driving the experience.


----------



## Wan (Dec 7, 2010)

I'd say that interaction is what makes games a unique form of entertainment.  Remove the interaction, and all you have is a pale imitation of films and books.


----------



## Dreikoo (Dec 7, 2010)

Interaction is good but immersion is better. This genre is about such a thing and achieves it through it's characteristics. It's not coincidence that story takes so much priority in so many games.


20 years ago it would have been what you say but now it's its own thing entirely. You don't get the same feeling you'd get from reading a book or watching a movie to playing something like FFXIII. It's sorta close to "playing anime", though .hack achieves that even better with the multiple anime and manga which are all about playing a game.


----------



## Wan (Dec 7, 2010)

"Immersion"?  What's immersive about using a thumbstick to make a character move around on a flat screen?  The incredible 3D effects of _Avatar_ when sitting in a movie theater are much more immersive than any JRPG.  The interaction of WRPGs is more "immersive" than JRPGs, because the player is being "immersed" in the game world by how they effect it and how it effects their choices.


----------



## Dreikoo (Dec 7, 2010)

A movie is too short and undetailed and a book lacks sound and doesn't present action as captivatingly, a game can fill in the blanks in-between the two.

It's not about technological prettyness either. I've been immersed into ugly old games way more than modern action ones.


----------



## Wan (Dec 7, 2010)

"A movie is too short"?

Hello, Lord of the Rings trilogy.  Hello, Star Wars trilogy.  Hello, Harry Potter series.  Hello, The Dark Knight saga.

Multiple movies, yes, but then, a brand new game costs three times as much as a brand new movie.


----------



## Dreikoo (Dec 7, 2010)

Even that is not long enough and what does money have to do with anything?


----------



## Wan (Dec 7, 2010)

Time =/= quality. All I can say, then, is that I get far more immersion and emotion out of The Lord of the Rings than I do out of any JRPG.


----------



## Bungee Gum (Dec 7, 2010)

been a bad year of gaming eh


----------



## Wan (Dec 7, 2010)

No...no, not at all.

Mass Effect 2
BioShock 2
Halo Reach
Heavy Rain
God of War III
Red Dead Redemption
Super Mario Galaxy 2
Call of Duty: Black Ops
Battlefield: Bad Company 2
Kirby's Epic Yarn
Alan Wake

etc.


----------



## Bungee Gum (Dec 7, 2010)

Mordin Solus said:


> No...no, not at all.
> 
> Mass Effect 2
> BioShock 2
> ...



Mass Effect 2-lame
BioShock 2-extra lame
Halo Reach-no
Heavy Rain-never played
God of War III-boring
Red Dead Redemption-ok
Super Mario Galaxy 2-ok
Call of Duty: Black Ops-no
Battlefield: Bad Company 2-no
Kirby's Epic Yarn-wut?
Alan Wake- never played


----------



## crazymtf (Dec 7, 2010)

ME2, tho vegas was good. 

I enjoyed FF13 but defiantly was weaker then both Vegas and ME2, big time. Guessing getting to old for FF13 type stories. Time to get mature square.



Dexter said:


> Mass Effect 2-lame
> BioShock 2-extra lame
> Halo Reach-no
> Heavy Rain-never played
> ...



Your Taste - Lame


----------



## Violent by Design (Dec 7, 2010)

Dexter said:


> been a bad year of gaming eh



*looks at sig


*realizes NBA 2k11 came out this year

not sure if serious, what exactly was a good year in gaming?


----------



## strongarm85 (Dec 7, 2010)

The real question here is what constitutes a Roleplaying Game. 

Roleplaying games are games were people take on the roles of other characters. Simply put, it is a game where the player's choices directly effect the events that unfold within the game.

A roleplaying game however is not "stats". Having HP, Magic systems, equipment systems. Those are not what make up a roleplaying game. Those are merely the game mechanics that drive the game. They are the system that help determine the success or failure of your actions. In fact they are the very thing that shape your strategies and how the game is experienced. But Stats do not make a roleplaying game.


----------



## Bungee Gum (Dec 7, 2010)

doesnt play sports games. hur


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 7, 2010)

IF Mass effect Doesn't count as an RPG cause it uses shooting as a A Battle mechanic rather then  a sword  then  i say  Final fantasy cant count cause it s merely a slasher



> i said that since they are all "insert yourself style" characters they end up being interchangeable since you're the one driving the experience.


 i have 6 different ME characters, they all have different motivations and reactions and reason behind them they are not interchangeable in the least

To Answer the OP its Mass effect 2 hands down no competition form any one


----------



## MrCinos (Dec 7, 2010)

As *RPG*, Fallout: New Vegas stomps. But overall I liked ME2 more. Not by much though, both games are great.


----------



## Gnome (Dec 8, 2010)

Out of the two choices, I'd go with neither. I have yet to play New Vegas and I didn't care much for ME2. I would choose Dragon Quest IX or Fable III simply because I enjoyed both of them a good deal.


----------



## The Red Gil (Dec 8, 2010)

Is New Vegas even worth paying $60.00 for?


----------



## vegitabo (Dec 8, 2010)

there were no good rpgs this year, they either full of bugs or sucked balls


----------



## Awesome (Dec 8, 2010)

Gil said:


> Is New Vegas even worth paying $60.00 for?



Well worth it. 

Mass Effect 2 still wins though, just because it doesn't have certain gameplay mechanics doesn't mean it's not an RPG.


----------



## Gnome (Dec 8, 2010)

Mass Effect 2 had enough aspects to call it an RPG, although some of those aspects were quite watered down. They watered down my favorite parts of ME1 which is why I didn't care for it.


----------



## Shay (Dec 8, 2010)

Mass Effect was indeed an RPG.

You assume the role of Commander Shepard, and your choices and decisions dictate the path of the game with visible consequences. Labeling it as a non-RPG because it has shooting mechanics is hilariously flawed logic.

To contrast, MW2 is an FPS and nothing more because no matter what you do, the game's storyline is on rails. You do not assume the role of Ramirez or Soap et.al, you simply control them.  Gears of War does the same thing. Halo does the same thing. No matter what you do in these games, for the most part your fate and story is set in stone. That's not to say that's bad, because all those games I just mentioned are freaking awesome - but, they are not RPG.

That's my logic for what sets apart RPGs from any other genre - you actively fill the role you are given and mold the storyline to your own specifications and decisions. Your growth or lack thereof, your exploration of the main storyline or lack thereof, your enjoyment or lack thereof, etc. is solely what you make of it as you fill that role.

And as much as I love FF13 I have to agree it is not an RPG based on that criterion. It was essentially a movie with controlled combat.

However ME2 and FNV are definitely examples of RPG, so I find this poll appropriate! Vote for ME2. ME2 was deeply moving, immersive, and compelling. FNV was fun and challenging and had a good story, but it didn't impact me as much as ME2 did.

And also, saying ME2's RPG aspects were watered down is sort of silly. They streamlined the skill progression, yes. However, if you're looking at that as being evidence of a watered down RPG in the face of such awesome conversational options, main/side quest decisions with actual impact on the events/characters/plot/endings, and the Renegade/Paragon context choices, you're just being picky. You don't need six hundred billion skills and a manual the size of the California Legal Code in order to label a game an RPG.


----------



## Mofo (Dec 8, 2010)

ME2 is not an RPG, still if I could base my choice upon the single factor (I love Yvonne Strahosky) of Miranda Lawson  I'd vote this game over and over. But since we're trying to judge a game for it's whole I'd have to give my vote to NV. The game is what the sequel to Fallout 2 should have been. Great job.


----------



## Mofo (Dec 8, 2010)

Dexter said:


> Mass Effect 2-lame
> BioShock 2-extra lame
> Halo Reach-no
> Heavy Rain-never played
> ...



You haven't missed much, the only "OMG it's awsum" game on that list is Heavy Rain which, trust me, is extremely good. It plays like a movie and a good one at that.


----------



## The Boss (Dec 8, 2010)

Mofo said:


> You haven't missed much, the only "OMG it's awsum" game on that list is Heavy Rain which, trust me, is extremely good. It *plays like a movie *and a good one at that.



Yep. Awesome *game*.


----------



## Hatifnatten (Dec 8, 2010)

FF13 obviously, the fuck with this american garbage.


----------



## Mofo (Dec 8, 2010)

The Boss said:


> Yep. Awesome *game*.


Quantic Dream games have always been like that, ie: OMIKRON The nomad soul.

That doesn't make Heavy Rain a bad game, just a "think out of the box once in a while one".


----------



## crazymtf (Dec 8, 2010)

Mofo said:


> ME2 is not an RPG, still if I could base my choice upon the single factor (I love Yvonne Strahosky) of Miranda Lawson  I'd vote this game over and over. But since we're trying to judge a game for it's whole I'd have to give my vote to NV. The game is what the sequel to Fallout 2 should have been. Great job.



Yes it is. Just because it has other elements not present in other RPGS doesn't make it non-rpg. Your playing through a story you create and make decisions for, you can new weapons, armor, powers. You level up. How is this NOT a RPG? Cause you don't see how much damage you do with a weapon? Cause you don't have to spend 3 hours going through a menu to find which stats are good and bad? Streamlined isn't always a bad thing


----------



## Wan (Dec 8, 2010)

Hatifnatten said:


> FF13 obviously, the fuck with this american garbage.



Technically BioWare is Canadian.


----------



## Mofo (Dec 8, 2010)

crazymtf said:


> Yes it is. Just because it has other elements not present in other RPGS doesn't make it non-rpg. Your playing through a story you create and make decisions for, you can new weapons, armor, powers. You level up. How is this NOT a RPG? Cause you don't see how much damage you do with a weapon? Cause you don't have to spend 3 hours going through a menu to find which stats are good and bad? Streamlined isn't always a bad thing



What  dumb logic is that? So Half Life is a RPG cause you play Gordon Freeman?
Have you ever heard about  plots, immersion, character customization,   Choice and consequences or even decent scripted companions?

Play Planescape:Torment, Arcanum, Vampire:Bloodlines, Deus Ex, Fallout 2, Fallout:NV.
These are RPGs, the rest is fluff.

Streamlined, right... more like dumbed down games.


----------



## The Boss (Dec 8, 2010)

Mofo said:


> Quantic Dream games have always been like that, ie: OMIKRON The nomad soul.
> 
> That doesn't make Heavy Rain a bad game, just a "think out of the box once in a while one".



I was partially trolling but in all honesty, Heavy Rain was good for what it's worth. I wouldn't consider it a full game. It's more of an interactive movie. It's one of those games in the gray area. Some may consider it a game, some won't, depending on who you ask. It does have the requirements for a game but how it was presented ... kinda conflicts with the whole aspect of it being a game. I enjoyed the story and while gameplay was "out of the box" it felt more like an interactive movie.. which is also consider a game... so yeah, that gray area for me. 

Cheers.


----------



## Violent by Design (Dec 8, 2010)

Mofo said:


> What  dumb logic is that? So Half Life is a RPG cause you play Gordon Freeman?
> Have you ever heard about  plots, immersion, character customization,   Choice and consequences or even decent scripted companions?
> 
> Play Planescape:Torment, Arcanum, Vampire:Bloodlines, Deus Ex, Fallout 2, Fallout:NV.
> ...



Huh? Your second sentence doesn't counter his post at all. He doesn't claim that anything is an RPG just because you're playing a protagonist.


----------



## Wan (Dec 8, 2010)

Mofo said:


> What  dumb logic is that? So Half Life is a RPG cause you play Gordon Freeman?



You _completely_ missed crazymtf's point, didn't you?



> Have you ever heard about  plots, immersion, character customization,   Choice and consequences or even decent scripted companions?.



Uh, yeah.  ME2 has it all.  That's probably what crazymtf was saying in the first place.


----------



## crazymtf (Dec 8, 2010)

Mofo said:


> What  dumb logic is that? So Half Life is a RPG cause you play Gordon Freeman?
> Have you ever heard about  plots, immersion, character customization,   Choice and consequences or even decent scripted companions?
> 
> Play Planescape:Torment, Arcanum, Vampire:Bloodlines, Deus Ex, Fallout 2, Fallout:NV.
> ...



I'm sorry did we get to make choices in HL? Level up? Gain new abilities? Get New Armor? Explore places and return to them *not linear levels that HL gives you*. Did we get a party? Did we do quest for people besides the main story? 

Plot, immersion, character choices and consequences and your companions were all well done in ME2, to bad you missed it.


----------



## Mofo (Dec 8, 2010)

Violent By Design said:


> Huh? Your second sentence doesn't counter his post at all. He doesn't claim that anything is an RPG just because you're playing a protagonist.


He claims a Gears of War/God of War  clone to be  a RPG just because there are a few char development screens. Let's analyze his words.

* Your playing through a story you create and make decisions for, you can new weapons, armor, powers. You level up. How is this NOT a RPG? Cause you don't see how much damage you do with a weapon? Cause you don't have to spend 3 hours going through a menu to find which stats are good and bad? Streamlined isn't always a bad thing*

A: What story are you actually creating? Mass Effect isn't a sandbox, you create nothing, you play within the binaries Bioware gave you, your action have really no impact on the greater scheme of things, you decide to be an evil guy or a good guy? Too bad, it's not like the game will change. I'll give you an example: In PS:T you could decide to play a dumbass fighter if you started bashing skulls (a la'  Renegade in Mass Effect) you'd have some paths and repercussions, some part of the game would be actually cut and you'd have to replay a good guy with high intelligence to get an important flash of your past.
A perfect example of modern RPG? NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer, it has everything a good RPG should have.

In Deus Ex you could solve each mission in at least 3 ways, minor actions would actually impact the game on later stages (save your brother, kill your brother, hack a particular computer, enter the women's bathroom and be recognized etc).

Even Fallout 3, which is universally known as the shitstain of RPGs, had some massive choice and consequences moment (deciding to blow up the town or not).  Mass Effect 2 has none of these, they took the action course even more than in Mass Effect 1 (and I have to say, by forfeiting the bad RPG parts the prequel had,  they managed to get a much more enjoyable game).
Damnit Alpha Protocol was shit and it still had better RPG moments than ME2.

Heck even Warcraft III allowed you to play a plot, change armors and weapons, learn skills, still none claims it was an RPG.
System Shock 2 had all the elements you claim Mass Effect has (minus the party, that was a gameplay decision)and it's  still labeled as a Shooter with RPGs elements (and the RPG part in System shock 2 is  actually good better than the one in Mass Effect, every skill will impact  your gameplay differently and force you into a different playstyle with each replay)



Mordin Solus said:


> You _completely_ missed crazymtf's point, didn't you?
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, yeah.  ME2 has it all.  That's probably what crazymtf was saying in the first place.



It might have it all but it doesn't make the game an RPG, it's a cover up action shooter with some RPG element, that's it.



crazymtf said:


> I'm sorry did we get to make choices in HL? Level up? Gain new abilities? Get New Armor? Explore places and return to them *not linear levels that HL gives you*. Did we get a party? Did we do quest for people besides the main story?
> 
> Plot, immersion, character choices and consequences and your companions were all well done in ME2, to bad you missed it.


ME2 had no choices and consequences (aka choices you make that force you to take a distinct path thus forcing you to replay the game for the missing content). You play paragon or renegade during a specific situation? Rest assured it won't change the overall result of that encounter, why the evil path is always the violent one I still have to understand, another limit Bioware has, they lack  a deeper understanding of morals.

ME2 companions are bland, want a deep character? 
Morte from PS:T, a funny one? Minsc from BGII, HK-47 from Kotor, a well designed NPC? Anything from Vampire:Bloodlines. The dialogues are usually short and horribly written in ME2, the whole "feeling" dialogue style reeks of cinematic but it breaks the immersion so badly, as for the party... you can make a solo RPG, ever played a roguelike? Besides: Daggerfall, Morrowind, even  Deus Ex and Vampire Bloodlines (now this game had good dialogues, play a Malkavian) were great RPGs without the party feature.


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 8, 2010)

Mofo said:


> ME2 had no choices and consequences (aka choices you make that force you to take a distinct path thus forcing you to replay the game for the missing content). You play paragon or renegade during a specific situation? Rest assured it won't change the overall result of that encounter, why the evil path is always the violent one I still have to understand, another limit Bioware has, they lack  a deeper understanding of morals..



ME2 was very much a game were the developers were looking at a very broad picture

the Entire end mission was was one were ur choices were all very important

Zaeed, Garrus, Samara and Tali's missions all had a bunh of varying ends to them depending on how u played



> ME2 companions are bland, want a deep character?


ok u have not played the fucking game [this is becoming more obvious by each post]

Bland?

Jack, Mordin, Garus, Tali, Miranda, Samara Hell even Grunt were about as deep and complex as they Come

the only one who could actually constitute as Bland Was Jacob, and even he is more deep then most characters in the games u listed


----------



## crazymtf (Dec 8, 2010)

In other words your stuck in the past. You've proved nothing at all. You don't make game changing moments? Did we play the same game? What the fuck was the whole ending? Mean the choice I made at the end won't change the outcome of ME3? ME2 is thinking of the long term unlike the games you listed, it's effecting the next one more so then this one.

And the rest is your OPINION not fact. ME2 is a RPG. Gears of War and god of war clone? Oh wow....someone plays very little games.


----------



## Wan (Dec 8, 2010)

Mofo said:


> A: What story are you actually creating? Mass Effect isn't a sandbox, you create nothing, you play within the binaries Bioware gave you, your action have really no impact on the greater scheme of things, you decide to be an evil guy or a good guy?



I disagree.  To name a few differences between Mass Effect 1 and 2:

The Council -- the governing body of the whole galaxy -- can be majorly changed.  The old one is either still their or dead and replaced with a new one, and Anderson or Udina is the new human councilor.

Several characters that could have ended up dead as a result of your actions can show up if still alive.  Most notably Urdnot Wrex, but also Gianna Parasini, Rana Thanoptis, Helena Blake, and Shiala.

Do these choices have as strong an effect on ME2 as those other RPGs did?  No.  However, Mass Effect was planned from the start as a trilogy.  The decisions made in both ME1 and ME2 are building up to an explosive conclusion in ME3.  You think decisions made within a game affecting the ending is impressive?  Just wait until decisions you made two games ago affect the ending of a whole game series.



> ME2 had no choices and consequences (aka choices you make that force you to take a distinct path thus forcing you to replay the game for the missing content). You play paragon or renegade during a specific situation? Rest assured it won't change the overall result of that encounter, why the evil path is always the violent one I still have to understand, another limit Bioware has, they lack  a deeper understanding of morals.



LOL!  Are you serious?

Mordin's loyalty mission:  Maelon is either dead or alive, and you either have the beginning of a cure for the genophage or you don't.

Garrus' loyalty mission:  Garrus may have left Harkin crippled, and may have killed Sidonis.  You can talk him out of both.

Kasumi's loyalty mission:  If Kasumi keeps Keiji's graybox with her, she risks letting out an (unspecified) secret of the Systems Alliance that could start an intergalactic war.

Legion's loyalty mission:  You can either destroy the geth Heretic station with its millions of geth, or reprogram them -- brainwash them, basically -- to rejoin the main geth faction.  Tell me, is there a right or wrong here?

Samara's loyalty mission:  If you have a high enough renegade/paragon, you can kill Samara and have Morinth join you.

Zaeed's loyalty mission:  You can save factory workers from a fiery death or help Zaeed kill Vido Santiago, at the expense of the factory workers.

The end mission:  You can wipe out all the Collectors from their base so that Cerberus can study it, at the risk of what unscrupulous things Cerberus might do and the habit of Reaper technology manipulating its researchers.  Or you can screw those risks and blow the whole base.  



> ME2 companions are bland, want a deep character?
> Morte from PS:T, a funny one? Minsc from BGII, HK-47 from Kotor, a well designed NPC? Anything from Vampire:Bloodlines. The dialogues are usually short and horribly written in ME2, the whole "feeling" dialogue style reeks of cinematic but it breaks the immersion so badly, as for the party... you can make a solo RPG, ever played a roguelike? Besides: Daggerfall, Morrowind, even  Deus Ex and Vampire Bloodlines (now this game had good dialogues, play a Malkavian) were great RPGs without the party feature.



Deep?  ...any, really, except maybe Grunt.  

Funny?


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 8, 2010)

Even Grunt is Deep when u sit down and talk to him


----------



## Mofo (Dec 8, 2010)

Zen-aku said:


> ME2 was very much a game were the developers were looking at a very broad picture
> 
> the Entire end mission was was one were ur choices were all very important
> 
> ...


Jesus H Christ, it's more like you live in a different world where horribly bland is deep, original, well developed, and piss and poo are gold and brown.

Play any of the games I've mentioned until now, then compare.  I've made examples of choice and consequencies to avoid exactly the happening of  people spilling bullshit about ME2 final mission and OMG The collectors killed my crew. Tough shit,  might it be Bioware is going to pull another Lazarus and shit upon your so well reharsed alternative finale.  Now if they had the balls to  start the third game from  the Shepard dies finale and have you play Joker.


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 8, 2010)

Mofo said:


> Jesus H Christ, it's more like you live in a different world where horribly bland is deep, original, well developed, and piss and poo are gold and brown.



Actually your the one living on the different planet

your about the only individual i have ever seen spew the bs ur spewing

U have definitely have never played the game and are getting all your fucking arguments third hand


lets  ignore the fact that every fucking gaming site in existence has given the game, perfect scores

the over whelming  fan response should confirm  its quality

you are most likely spewing this just for attention [your trolling on 2 separate threads support this imo]


----------



## Mofo (Dec 8, 2010)

Zen-aku said:


> Actually your the one living on the different planet
> 
> your about the only individual i have ever seen spew the bs ur spewing
> 
> ...


Gaming press? You do realize gaming journalists are paid by the developers to write good reviews. Let's not mention about the idiocy of basing your opinion upon a review, I try the game, if I like it it's good for me, if not It's shit.

BTW:  (many game developers post there, even Bioware  and Bethsoft ones, before they got banned)
No Mutants allowed was good also before console tards rushed the place. Just saying, I'm not the only one with these "tastes".  
Next time stick your ad hominem along with your head  up your ass.    Least be called a troll for voicing a different opinion


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 8, 2010)

Mofo said:


> *Gaming press? You do realize gaming journalists are paid by the developers to write good reviews*. Let's not mention about the idiocy of basing your opinion upon a review, I try the game, if I like it it's good for me, if not It's shit.


 yes yes , and the Government have dentist Implant Tracking devices in our teeth and Major League baseball watch us from orbital satellites and the Little Plastic aglets on the end of are shoe laces are sinister in nature.



> BTW:  (many game developers post there, even Bioware  and Bethsoft ones, before they got banned)
> No Mutants allowed was good also before console tards rushed the place. Just saying, I'm not the only one with these "tastes".
> Next time stick your ad hominem along with your head  up your ass.    Least be called a troll for voicing a different opinion



A different opinion is one thing

Bitching about shit when you dont know what your talking about is what i call Trolling


----------



## Mofo (Dec 8, 2010)

Zen-aku said:


> yes yes , and the Government have dentist Implant Tracking devices in our teeth and Major League baseball watch us from orbital satellites and the Little Plastic aglets on the end of are shoe laces are sinister in nature.
> 
> Bitching about shit when you dont know what your talking about is what i call Trolling



It's not a conspiracy, take a look at every gaming magazine home page, or scroll the paper ones, they're filled with Gaming companies Ads.  2-3 years ago Blizzard did even write a guideline on how previews had to be written, if a site didn't agree they couldn't get a preview copy.

And besides  I know the game enough to point out the inherent flaws, you on the other hand  are the one unable to communicate like a civil person here.


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 8, 2010)

Mofo said:


> It's not a conspiracy, take a look at every gaming magazine home page, or scroll the paper ones, they're filled with Gaming companies ones. Blizzard did even write a guideline of how reviews had to be written if someone wanted a preview copy of their games.
> And besides  I know the game enough to point out the inherent flaws, you on the other hand  are the one unable to communicate like a civil person here.



i am being plenty  civil and no u dont know about the game, i've pointed that out if  u did you would know how asinine "saying the characters are bland and not deep" are

and it is a Conspiracy, not every video game gets  a good fucking review, saying gaming sites are getting payed under the table is bs spouted when they underrate a game u like and overate a game u dont


----------



## Wan (Dec 9, 2010)

Mofo said:


> Now this is a good post. Let me ask a few question. First of all I bought ME2 and not the sequel, I want a good game now, not a potential good  leadin for a sequel, else I'd just buy the sequel and be done with it.



Can't help you with that, then.  Looking for a completely satisfying stand-alone experience in a series that was conceived as a trilogy is rather pointless.  That's like hating Empire Strikes Back for leaving us with the Empire still in control of the galaxy.  Is it a good movie?  Yes, of course.  Is it a complete story?  No, it isn't.  Is Mass Effect 2 a good game?  Heck yes.  Is Mass Effect 2 a complete RPG experience?  Not quite, and it's not meant to be.  The whole trilogy is meant to be the complete RPG experience.



> Does the change of the council affect your playing experience in a major way, to the point you'd have to replay the game to get the cut content?
> I'll answer for you, it doesn't.  The changes are merely aesthetic.



Yes.  Yes it does.  I've played through both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 multiple times to see different ways things could turn out.  There are still a few things I have not tried that would have made things turn out differently.



> Which are exactly that, simple missions, there is no elaborated scheme, it's the typical Bioware DO/Don't  dichotomy. You did a great job explaining the flaw.



Don't go changing the goalposts. You said, "Rest assured it won't change the overall result of *that encounter*".  Empirically wrong.

As for the point you raise, individual missions are all building the overall game world and story, and as I said before, will come to fruition in ME3.



> Funny


----------



## Dolohov27 (Dec 9, 2010)

A glich fest vs a highly polish game, Mass Effect 2 wins hand down.


----------



## strongarm85 (Dec 9, 2010)

Fall Out New Vegas is indeed a glitch fest.

In fact a friend of mine actually skipped did a damn good of collecting bottle caps and loot a few hours into the game and buy the membership early in the game, all the sudden to find that he skipped a major part of the storyline.

When he finally made it to the end the game had gotten so bad it was just constantly crashing on him.

You can say a lot about New Vegas, but it is not a polished game.


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 9, 2010)

Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep and Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey are the only really great rpgs I can think of released this year.

I'll go with Birth By Sleep.


----------



## Wan (Dec 9, 2010)

*looks at username and set*

I'm not even going to try...


----------



## Axl Low (Dec 9, 2010)

Mass Effect 2 is GOTY and Best RPG
Sorry but FO3:NV is just an expansion pack


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 9, 2010)

Mordin Solus said:


> *looks at username and set*
> 
> I'm not even going to try...


----------



## Wan (Dec 9, 2010)

Point taken.


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 9, 2010)

If only Diablo 3 was released this year.


----------



## crazymtf (Dec 9, 2010)

Sephiroth said:


> Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep and Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey are the only really great rpgs I can think of released this year.
> 
> I'll go with Birth By Sleep.



Birth by sleep sucked major balls. Golden Sun, Dragon Quest 9, and Shin Megami were all better for JRPG.


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 9, 2010)

In what way? It was a very solid title.

Compared to Fallout New Vegas a glitch fest expansion pack sold as a full game?


----------



## crazymtf (Dec 9, 2010)

Story sucked, camera was fucking beyond horrible, the gameplay is nothing special and adding in flashy moves doesn't change the fact KH has to evolve soon. 

Overall a waste of a game for KH series, defiantly feels like the spin-off that it is.


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 9, 2010)

they have slapped so much shit with the KH label i dont even care about KH3 any more


----------



## Rukia (Dec 9, 2010)

Mass Effect 2.


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 9, 2010)

crazymtf said:


> Story sucked, camera was fucking beyond horrible, the gameplay is nothing special and adding in flashy moves doesn't change the fact KH has to evolve soon.
> 
> Overall a waste of a game for KH series, defiantly feels like the spin-off that it is.



It's part of the main line actually.


----------



## crazymtf (Dec 9, 2010)

So is COM and DS title, doesn't mean it's not a spin-off or side games, all three are.


----------



## Proxy (Dec 9, 2010)

ME counts as a RPG?


----------



## strongarm85 (Dec 9, 2010)

Proxy said:


> ME counts as a RPG?



Mass Effect 2 is an RPG that uses Shooter Mechanics in place of a more generic RPG system for determining the success or failure of certain actions.


----------



## OmniSScythe (Dec 10, 2010)

ME2 over FO:NV?

Yes

RPG of the year?

Oh heaven no, just... no.


----------



## Wan (Dec 10, 2010)

Proxy said:


> ME counts as a RPG?



Customizable character, in both appearance and class?  Check.

A set of skills that you improve with points gained by leveling up?  Check.

A party that you choose from to help you on missions?  Check.

A conversation system that you use to make decisions and affect the outcome of missions?  Check.

An open game world...er, galaxy... that you can explore?  Check.

An array of side missions that you can play in whatever order you want, whenever you want?  Check.


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 10, 2010)

Mordin Solus said:


> Customizable character, in both appearance and class?  Check.
> 
> A set of skills that you improve with points gained by leveling up?  Check.
> 
> ...



most RPGS Released this year [not named Mass Effect or Fallout] only have one or 2 of those


----------



## crazymtf (Dec 10, 2010)

Proxy said:


> ME counts as a RPG?



As much as every final fantasy, oblivion, fallout, and any other rpg does. "



OmniSScythe said:


> ME2 over FO:NV?
> 
> Yes
> 
> ...



Then what is? If you say FF or KH I'ma just....just no


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 10, 2010)

crazymtf said:


> So is COM and DS title



CoM yes, 356/2 days no.



> doesn't mean it's not a spin-off or side games, all three are.



Birth by Sleep is a core title, not a spin off or side game.


----------



## crazymtf (Dec 10, 2010)

They are all side games....One is the past, backstory, other two fill in plots between the MAIN games. But none are the main games, they are not titled. It be like saying Assassin Creed Brotherhood is part of the main storyline. No it's a side story, more story of Ezio, but it's not one of the main core games.


----------



## Shippingr4losers (Dec 10, 2010)

*Hey Everybody, I'd just like to take this moment to thank you all for turning up. I never meant for this discussion to ask the very definition of an RPG, but I'm very impressed by the turnout as well as the potential for philosophical debates on this forum, nonetheless. 
*

Before you all start getting violent, I'd just like to remind everybody that I didn't personally pick these as the only RPG's, *I picked them because they were nominees on Spike TV's VGA's.*

*So, be sure to Tune into the VGA's Tomorrow Night at 5PM EST and root for your favorite RPG.*


----------



## Dreikoo (Dec 10, 2010)

As if spike matters. Didn't they have that ultimate gamer travesty where the finalists couldn't do basic combos on blazblue after a month with the game and where the announcer had to explain the meaning of a headshot?

Please >_>.


----------



## Botzu (Dec 10, 2010)

I would go with a psp or DS rpg released this year over these 2. Valkyria chronicles 2, P3P, EO3, KH:BBS, DQ9, GSD . Many solid rpgs to choose from released for handheld this year. Though if it came down between new vegas and ME2, I go with ME2.


----------



## ExoSkel (Dec 10, 2010)

I don't know. ME2 was gorgeous and epic. But for some reason, I picked New Vegas.

Probably because I'm more of a Fallout whore.


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 10, 2010)

crazymtf said:


> They are all side games....One is the past, backstory, other two fill in plots between the MAIN games. But none are the main games, they are not titled.



Been looking through the interviews for when he said it is, but don't care enough to keeping looking to find it.

I'll just leave it alone.



Botzu said:


> I would go with a psp or DS rpg released this year over these 2. Valkyria chronicles 2, P3P, EO3, KH:BBS, DQ9, GSD . Many solid rpgs to choose from released for handheld this year. Though if it came down between new vegas and ME2, I go with ME2.



Indeed, a really bad year for console rpgs.


----------



## serger989 (Dec 10, 2010)

I love both but Mass Effect 2... It just tickles me in so many ways! Mass Effect 1 and 2 are my favorite RPGs next to Baldur's Gate 1 and 2  lol Gah it takes hold of my imagination and carries it off to adventure!


----------



## Ciupy (Dec 11, 2010)

Mass Effect 2 definitely wins this..and I love both ME2 and F:NV.

But ME2 is the essence of what I love,epic sci-fi  setting,great action and characters,music e.t.c. 

Mass Effect 3 can't come soon enough..


----------



## Esura (Dec 11, 2010)

Neither of them (although ME2 is better than NV by far). I would nominate FFXIII instead.

Also,


> A role-playing game is a broad family of games in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making or character development. Actions taken within the game succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.


From 

Say what you will, but if FFXIII isn't a RPG, then ME2 and NV are certainly not as well. FFXIII's linearity doesn't determine whether its an RPG or not. Players do take the role of Lightning and co. throughout the game through a process of a linear character development (as most JRPGs). Just because some of you find FFXIII (or JRPGs in general) to not be an RPG doesn't make it a fact at all. It's just your flawed opinion and understanding of the genre as a whole. Contrary to the popular belief right now, the definition of WRPGs aren't the definitive definition of RPGs in general. And Bioware adding more fuel to ignorance .


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 11, 2010)

Esura said:


> Neither of them (although ME2 is better than NV by far). I would nominate FFXIII instead.
> 
> Also,
> 
> ...



then God of war is an RPG too

FF13 too k away all freedom, you couldn't  even  build the characters the way u wanted till more then half way in

add that with one of the most unlikable casts of characters ever assembled and ur in the minority of people who think its the best of the year


----------



## Esura (Dec 11, 2010)

Mordin Solus said:


> Customizable character, in both appearance and class?  Check.
> 
> A set of skills that you improve with points gained by leveling up?  Check.
> 
> ...





Zen-aku said:


> then God of war is an RPG too
> 
> FF13 too k away all freedom, you couldn't  even  build the characters the way u wanted till more then half way in
> 
> add that with one of the most unlikable casts of characters ever assembled and ur in the minority of people who think its the best of the year



*Grand Theft Auto San Andreas an RPG?*

Customizable character, in both appearance and class?  Check.

A set of skills that you improve with points gained by leveling up?  Check.

A party that you choose from to help you on missions?  Check.

A conversation system that you use to make decisions and affect the outcome of missions?  Nope.

An open game world...er, galaxy... that you can explore?  Check.

An array of side missions that you can play in whatever order you want, whenever you want?  Check

Well it got most of the criterion right so it MUST be an RPG! (See where I'm going with this?)

Also, Zen-aku, there is really no debating the validity of FFXIII being an RPG. You may not like it or consider it one, but it is. Its an RPG, plain and simple from the main definition of RPGs in general. Likewise, ME2 is a RPG as well, even though I personally dont consider it one, that doesnt really matter when its often considered an RPG, and do follow the basic definition of an RPG.

And yes I do consider it to be the best RPG (not video games in general) of the year. Just because I dont agree with the majority of people hopping on ME2's balls my opinion doesn't matter?


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 11, 2010)

Esura said:


> *Grand Theft Auto San Andreas an RPG?*
> 
> Customizable character, in both appearance and class?  Check.
> 
> ...




i didn't say FFXIII isn't an RPG 

iam saying its a shitty, uninspired rpg,

the last good game square made was Infinite undiscoverey, i shudder to think of how shitty Tomb raider is gonna be

if you like it that's fine, i like DMC2 i still recognize is faults and that its regarded by most people as shit or a reason


----------



## Esura (Dec 11, 2010)

Zen-aku said:


> i didn't say FFXIII isn't an RPG
> 
> iam saying its a shitty, uninspired rpg,
> 
> ...


My bad at getting irritated at you though. Its starting to become bothersome that people call FFXIII an action adventure game cause it doesn't follow outdated mechanics from yore, so I get defensive. 

Also, Square did not make Infinite Undiscovery, Tri-Ace did. Square just published. The only actual game Square made on the HD consoles this gen is FFXIII and coming soon...FFXIII Versus. And Tomb Raider reboot is being developed by Crystal Dynamics....although thats technically part of Square Enix Europe (Eidos) now since Square bought them.

Also, I like DMC2 as well but most of the complaints against FFXIII as well as DMC2 isnt really based on actual faults of the game itself. They garnered complaints because it wasnt up to some lofty, unrealistic expectations the hardcore fans had for the game or didn't incorperate outdated mechanics into the game and as such. People wanted FFXIII to be...essentially a HD carbon copy of FFVII.


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 11, 2010)

Esura said:


> Also, Square did not make Infinite Undiscovery, Tri-Ace did. Square just published. The only actual game Square made on the HD consoles this gen is FFXIII and coming soon...FFXIII Versus. And Tomb Raider reboot is being developed by Crystal Dynamics....although thats technically part of Square Enix Europe (Eidos) now since Square bought them.


 iam still expecting shit, cause every thing square has touched lately turns to shit, they are very stuck int he past and are unwilling to change



> Also, I like DMC2 as well but most of the complaints against FFXIII as well as DMC2 isnt really based on actual faults of the game itself. They garnered complaints because it wasnt up to some lofty, unrealistic expectations the hardcore fans had for the game or didn't incorperate outdated mechanics into the game and as such. People wanted FFXIII to be...essentially a HD carbon copy of FFVII.


 thats not true

FF8, FF10, even 12 all were received better then 13

it possible that the reason so many people said 13 sucked is cause it well sucked


----------



## Esura (Dec 11, 2010)

Zen-aku said:


> thats not true
> 
> FF8, FF10, even 12 all were received better then 13
> 
> it possible that the reason so many people said 13 sucked is cause it well sucked



Technically, 13 was actually well recieved by reviewers as well. 

I was referring to the fanbase reception of the game. FFVIII, FFX (and X-2), and FFXII all have many dissenters in the FF fanbase, if not equal to scale of XIII. You have haters and lovers, its how it is. FFXIII actually have no flaw that no one has truly stated yet (which I've actually noticed and expounded apon on various boards). I'm not trying to say its perfect (its not) but being linear isn't a flaw, its you just not liking linear stuff, which is what most of the complaints come from. Well, and the battle system, which is pretty much a typical turn based battle system on fast forward. 

This is what bugs me, people will rag on FFXIII's near flawless technology with damn near no bugs and no framerate problems, but Fallout New Vegas gets hell of praise without even mentioning the myriad *GAME CRASHING BUGS* in the game, or if they mention it, they mention it as a small problem. Mainstream gamers are an odd bunch.


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 11, 2010)

Esura said:


> Technically, 13 was actually well recieved by reviewers as well.
> 
> I was referring to the fanbase reception of the game. FFVIII, FFX (and X-2), and FFXII all have many dissenters in the FF fanbase, if not equal to scale of XIII. You have haters and lovers, its how it is. FFXIII actually have no flaw that no one has truly stated yet (which I've actually noticed and expounded apon on various boards). I'm not trying to say its perfect (its not) but being linear isn't a flaw, its you just not liking linear stuff, which is what most of the complaints come from. Well, and the battle system, which is pretty much a typical turn based battle system on fast forward.
> 
> .



When the linearity is so enforced that your not even really playing, yeah its is a flaw

a game shouldn't make you feel bored, you shouldn't have a bunch of people saying it wasn't fun until 30 or so hours in

that is a flaw


----------



## Wan (Dec 11, 2010)

Esura said:


> *Grand Theft Auto San Andreas an RPG?*
> 
> Customizable character, in both appearance and class?  Check.
> 
> ...



Congratulations on proving that GTAIII is more of an RPG than FFXIII is.


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 11, 2010)

Mordin Solus said:


> Congratulations on proving that GTAIII is more of an RPG than FFXIII is.



doh hoh hoh!


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 11, 2010)




----------



## Esura (Dec 11, 2010)

Mordin Solus said:


> Congratulations on proving that GTAIII is more of an RPG than FFXIII is.


That wasnt the point. My point was that the general definition of WRPGs are too broad. So the things that make ME2 and WRPG can easily correlate to other games in other genres as well.

There is no this game being "more" of an RPG than that game. An RPG is a RPG, plain and simple. Contrary to dumbass a Bioware employee (read link I posted), JRPG is just the Japanese take on RPGs, thats all. They dont even call JRPGs "JRPGs" in Japan, just RPGs. And its quite pathetic that people keep talking as though ME2 and Fallout 3 (NV) as "true" RPGs.


----------



## Wan (Dec 11, 2010)

If there is no "This game is more RPG than this game", does that make Halo no less an RPG than Final Fantasy?  Does that make Super Mario World no less an RPG than Final Fantasy VI?

Be careful, you're very close to rendering the very definition of an RPG pointless.


----------



## Esura (Dec 11, 2010)

Zen-aku said:


> When the linearity is so enforced that your not even really playing, yeah its is a flaw
> 
> a game shouldn't make you feel bored, you shouldn't have a bunch of people saying it wasn't fun until 30 or so hours in
> 
> that is a flaw


Thats a flaw for you, not a fundamental flaw in the game itself. Why do the linearity surprise people anyways? They said this was going to be a linear game from DAY ONE because of the reception FFXII got for its openness. They said it wasn't going to have towns in it from DAY ONE. If you were disappointed by it, you only have your ignorance to blame. No one should of been shocked by this.

And you are playing the game. Saying you not even really playing is just outright retarded, and you seem to have your mind made up on this matter, so whatever. You don't like it, thats fine. There was alot of people who weren't bored by the game.


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 11, 2010)

Points to video, watch it.


----------



## Esura (Dec 11, 2010)

Mordin Solus said:


> If there is no "This game is more RPG than this game", does that make Halo no less an RPG than Final Fantasy?  Does that make Super Mario World no less an RPG than Final Fantasy VI?
> 
> Be careful, you're very close to rendering the very definition of an RPG pointless.


Too late. The definition of RPG is pointless anyways this generation, considering how the western developers merged the genre too much with other genres. Before this generation, video game RPGs were clearly defined, and no one was really debating about the legitimacy of certain games being RPGs. Thats the problem. Halo and Super Mario World can easily be dismissed as not RPGs easily, however, Red Dead Redemption, GTA SA (yes, I know, last gen), Just Cause 2, etc. really blurs the line.

I'm just going by the basest of base definition of video game RPGs as a whole, which is why I really didn't debate ME2 not being a RPG as much as I was debating that FFXIII IS a RPG.


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 11, 2010)

thank you for wasting 20 minutes of my life with an angry nerd telling me shit i already knew


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 11, 2010)

Zen-aku said:


> thank you for wasting 20 minutes of my life with an angry nerd *telling me shit i already knew*



I doubt that.

I already know you love to troll hard though.


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 11, 2010)

Esura said:


> Thats a flaw for you, not a fundamental flaw in the game itself. Why do the linearity surprise people anyways? They said this was going to be a linear game from DAY ONE because of the reception FFXII got for its openness. They said it wasn't going to have towns in it from DAY ONE. If you were disappointed by it, you only have your ignorance to blame. No one should of been shocked by this.
> 
> And you are playing the game. Saying you not even really playing is just outright retarded, and you seem to have your mind made up on this matter, so whatever. You don't like it, thats fine. There was alot of people who weren't bored by the game.



you may say its retarded but its the truth

for the first 30 minutes the game plays its self, go to one area kill all the monsters, go to the next, no variation in building your characters ether

i wasn't shocked it sucked, cause square has fallen and it has fallen hard

also u keep saying that Bioware made some big offense with its comment,s when

 1 no there not exactly wrong in there point of view

and 2 square has talked shit as well





> I doubt that.
> 
> I already know you love to troll hard though.


 pssh i dont troll

but yeah i already knew all of that


----------



## crazymtf (Dec 11, 2010)

Final Fantasy 13 is def a RPG. So is ME2 and Fallout. Now how good are they all compared to each other? Each person is allowed to have their opinion. Not everyone will like JRPG or WRPG. 

I personally view it as ME2 > Fallout > Final Fantasy but I enjoyed all 3 except that FF has to write for us players over the age of 16 now.


----------



## Esura (Dec 11, 2010)

Sephiroth said:


> I doubt that.
> 
> I already know you love to troll hard though.


I'm with Zen-aku on this one. Thats common knowledge.



Zen-aku said:


> you may say its retarded but its the truth
> 
> for the first 30 minutes the game plays its self, go to one area kill all the monsters, go to the next, no variation in building your characters ether
> 
> ...


This is getting us nowhere. You got your opinions and I have mines.
/end




crazymtf said:


> Final Fantasy 13 is def a RPG. So is ME2 and Fallout. Now how good are they all compared to each other? Each person is allowed to have their opinion. Not everyone will like JRPG or WRPG.


True.



> I personally view it as ME2 > Fallout > Final Fantasy but I enjoyed all 3 except that FF has to write for us players over the age of 16 now.



I like Mass Effect 1-2 actually. Not as much as Dragon Age or Baldur's Gate, by a long shot, but its ok. I have a love/hate thing with Fallout 3 however. The post-apocalyptic setting is ok (definitely not as cool as Cyrodil in Oblivion though) and the quests are ight, but the glitches and V.A.T.S. irritates me so. Even moreso if you play it after Borderlands...which actually controls fluidly like a shooter, whereas the first-person shooting in Fallout 3 (NV) without V.A.T.S. is a pain in my ass.


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 11, 2010)

> I'm with Zen-aku on this one. Thats common knowledge.



You would think, but people claim GTA is a rpg and FFXIII is not.

and I was too lazy to actually post about it.


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 11, 2010)

Sephiroth said:


> You would think, but people claim GTA is a rpg and FFXIII is not.
> 
> and I was too lazy to actually post about it.



any one who thinks that should be ignored


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 11, 2010)

Mordin Solus said:


> Congratulations on proving that GTAIII is more of an RPG than FFXIII is.


----------



## Zen-aku (Dec 11, 2010)

he was making a point


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 11, 2010)

Zen-aku said:


> he was making a point



His point was exactly what he posted.


----------



## Esura (Dec 12, 2010)

Zen-aku said:


> any one who thinks that should be ignored


I actually posted that criterion of GTA San Andreas as an RPG to make a point. That the exact reasons he stated that ME2 is a RPG could be used for that game as well (and alot others, but I wont go there since the debate died down now).



Sephiroth said:


> His point was exactly what he posted.


LOL yeah.


----------



## joareth (Feb 12, 2011)

I feel New Vegas is the better RPG, open world with so much to do and so manyw ays you can do it, Fallout New Vegas reminds me of the old baldur's gate/Icewind dale and original fallout games. Mass Effect 2 is more like Final Fantasy in terms of its cinematic storytelling, I would compare Fallout New Vegas to Dragon Age .


----------



## Wan (Feb 12, 2011)

Yeaaaaah, no.  Mass Effect is _not_ like Final Fantasy when it comes to storytelling.  Sure, it's cinematic, but that can be said of a bunch of shooters that are nowhere close to being RPGs.  In Mass Effect, you choose what your character says to affect the story, can choose the order of the recruitment and loyalty missions, and go on various side missions.  Final Fantasy is very linear and the player doesn't really have any control over the dialogue and story.


----------



## left4lol (Feb 12, 2011)

If you ask which is better RPG, then it would be Fallout:NV, if you ask which one is the better game, then it would be Mass Effect 2, if you ask me which game is RPG of The Year, then it would be Divinity 2KS.

And I don't think think Mass Effect 2 is even an RPG. if you put Mass Effect 2 in RPG then you should also put a lot  game from other genre as an RPG.


----------



## Wan (Feb 12, 2011)

Mass Effect 2 is an RPG, we've already been over that in this thread.  It has all the characteristics of an RPG.  Just because it's streamlined or "dumbed down" doesn't make it any less of an RPG than the complex ones.


----------



## joareth (Feb 12, 2011)

left4lol said:


> If you ask which is better RPG, then it would be Fallout:NV, if you ask which one is the better game, then it would be Mass Effect 2, if you ask me which game is RPG of The Year, then it would be Divinity 2KS.
> 
> And I don't think think Mass Effect 2 is even an RPG. if you put Mass Effect 2 in RPG then you should also put a lot  game from other genre as an RPG.



LOL Divinity isn't even recognized on the same level as Mass Effect 2 and Fallout New Vegas... dont try to compare peasants to Kings.


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Feb 12, 2011)

I loved both games for different reasons. In terms of openness and sheer amount of things to do... Fallout tops ME2 easily. However... Mass Effect 2 is special. The universe is so well put together... the characters so well fleshed out... the audio/visual experience so grand... It feels like a real world. I've never cared about so many characters from one game in my entire life. Mordin, Garrus, Tali, Joker, Kasumi, Thane... even the one's a don't really like, get so fleshed out that they eventually grow on me like Jack, Samara, and Jacob. I've never felt like this was my character quite like I do with Shepard.

That, to me... is amazing. I love both games for entirely different reasons... but I have to go with Mass Effect 2 overall. I even gave NV a 9.6 on my site... After playing through ME2 I gave it a 9.7. That's how awesome both these games are to me.


----------



## Krory (Feb 12, 2011)

I'm sorry but I really have yet to see Obsidian produce anything of quality and this includes, of course, New Vegas. More glitch-ridden than Fallout 3 to the point that Bethesda needed to stop in and correct it. As to why Bethesda would've allowed that is beyond me (but then they also did pass WET). Half of what was promised in New Vegas wasn't there and it was a very bland experience. Fallout 3 recycled many, many layers and characters as usual but Fallout 3 at least felt like there was some impact on anything, which is not the feeling I got from New Vegas. New Vegas, to me, was just tasteless in almost every way.

I'll side with AIAA, G4, GameInformer, SVGA, and GameTrailers with this one (as disreputable as G4 is).


----------



## joareth (Feb 12, 2011)

Garrus said:


> I'm sorry but I really have yet to see Obsidian produce anything of quality and this includes, of course, New Vegas. More glitch-ridden than Fallout 3 to the point that Bethesda needed to stop in and correct it. As to why Bethesda would've allowed that is beyond me (but then they also did pass WET). Half of what was promised in New Vegas wasn't there and it was a very bland experience. Fallout 3 recycled many, many layers and characters as usual but Fallout 3 at least felt like there was some impact on anything, which is not the feeling I got from New Vegas. New Vegas, to me, was just tasteless in almost every way.
> 
> I'll side with AIAA, G4, GameInformer, SVGA, and GameTrailers with this one (as disreputable as G4 is).



FYI Bethesda pushed Obsidian to release New Vegas earlier than expacted, doesn't matter anymore though because most of the bugs have been fixed int he December update and lets not forget Bethesda's engine was faulty from the start, Obsidian had to work with a faulty engine. The experience def wasn't bland so many quest in New Vegas with a lot of good stories seperate from the main storyline. 

Fallout 3 wasn't really a good game but it was better than what Bethesda did with Oblivion (that game had so much wasted potential) anyway thats why Bethesda had Obsidian make New Vegas which consist of former  Black Isle Studios members who had a hand in the Original Fallout games. 

Obsidian made New Vegas better than Fallout 3 in so many ways, i bet Bethesda wished they would have had them work on the original Fallout 3.


----------



## Luxiano (Feb 12, 2011)

Both of these games are RPGs , neither of them are "RPG of the year".

Also Mass Effect 2 is much better.


----------



## Krory (Feb 12, 2011)

joareth said:


> FYI Bethesda pushed Obsidian to release New Vegas earlier than expacted, doesn't matter anymore though because most of the bugs have been fixed int he December update and lets not forget Bethesda's engine was faulty from the start, Obsidian had to work with a faulty engine. The experience def wasn't bland so many quest in New Vegas with a lot of good stories seperate from the main storyline.
> 
> Fallout 3 wasn't really a good game but it was better than what Bethesda did with Oblivion (that game had so much wasted potential) anyway thats why Bethesda had Obsidian make New Vegas which consist of former  Black Isle Studios members who had a hand in the Original Fallout games.
> 
> Obsidian made New Vegas better than Fallout 3 in so many ways, i bet Bethesda wished they would have had them work on the original Fallout 3.



I, and I know many others, are still experience a mass amount of glitches, bugs, freezing and extremely slow load times. I still can't even play the DLC without experiencing issues that make it so frustrating that it's a waste of time. At least Fallout 3 eventually got its shit together and just like Ubisoft, Obsidian and Bethesda both are pushing blame off. It's extraordinary that they can push this off as a "brand new game" when ninety percent of structures and textures were re-used from Fallout 3. New Vegas really was nothing more than an expansion for Fallout 3 that took much too long to make.

Though bugs and glitches that never get fixed and break games are nothing new to Obsidian. NWN2 and KotOR2 were flat-out EMBARRASSING compared to the first games in the series in terms of quality control.


----------



## left4lol (Feb 12, 2011)

Mordin Solus said:


> Mass Effect 2 is an RPG, we've already been over that in this thread.  It has all the characteristics of an RPG.  Just because it's streamlined or "dumbed down" doesn't make it any less of an RPG than the complex ones.


It looks like a TPS, it plays like TPS it is a TPS end of discussion.


joareth said:


> LOL Divinity isn't even recognized on the same level as Mass Effect 2 and Fallout New Vegas... dont try to compare peasants to Kings.


Have you even try the game . I dont remember that the requirement to be RPG of the year means it should be the most popular. hell it have a better metacritic score then Fallout:NV (albeit with a less reviewer).


Garrus said:


> I'm sorry but I really have yet to see Obsidian produce anything of quality and this includes, of course, New Vegas. More glitch-ridden than Fallout 3 to the point that Bethesda needed to stop in and correct it. As to why Bethesda would've allowed that is beyond me (but then they also did pass WET). Half of what was promised in New Vegas wasn't there and it was a very bland experience. Fallout 3 recycled many, many layers and characters as usual but Fallout 3 at least felt like there was some impact on anything, which is not the feeling I got from New Vegas. New Vegas, to me, was just tasteless in almost every way.
> 
> I'll side with AIAA, G4, GameInformer, SVGA, and GameTrailers with this one (as disreputable as G4 is).


Pretty sure Fallout 3 have more bug then Fallout:NV, though I never have any serious problem with both game. If you count Black Isle as Obsidian then you pretty much talking about a legendary developer with stuff like Planescape: Torment, Fallout, and Baldurs Gate, but yeah they weren't so hot in term of production this day.


----------



## Wan (Feb 13, 2011)

left4lol said:


> It looks like a TPS, it plays like TPS it is a TPS end of discussion.



It's a TPS/RPG hybrid, yes.  The combat system is that of a TPS.  Fallout's combat is that of an FPS.  Mass Effect also has:

Customizable character, in both appearance and class
A set of skills that you improve with points gained by leveling up
A party that you choose from to help you on missions
A conversation system that you use to make decisions and affect the outcome of missions
An open game world...er, galaxy... that you can explore
An array of side missions that you can play in whatever order you want, whenever you want

As you said, looks like a RPG, plays like an RPG, it is an RPG.  Doesn't keep it from also being a TPS.


----------



## Krory (Feb 13, 2011)

left4lol said:


> Pretty sure Fallout 3 have more bug then Fallout:NV, though I never have any serious problem with both game. If you count Black Isle as Obsidian then you pretty much talking about a legendary developer with stuff like Planescape: Torment, Fallout, and Baldurs Gate, but yeah they weren't so hot in term of production this day.



However _as_ Obsidian they've done KotORII, NWN2, New Vegas, and Alpha Protocol.

All of which were some of the biggest messes of the years they came out. It was an embarrassing downward spiral that is only getting worse unless they can not screw up yet ANOTHER sequel with Dungeon Siege III.

Also, Baldurs Gate was primarily developed by Bioware. Black Isle produced and added minor assistance/overseeing, except Dark Alliance II - the only Baldurs Gate they primarily developed, and it broke them.


----------



## left4lol (Feb 13, 2011)

Mordin Solus said:


> It's a TPS/RPG hybrid, yes.  The combat system is that of a TPS.  Fallout's combat is that of an FPS.  Mass Effect also has:
> 
> Customizable character, in both appearance and class
> A set of skills that you improve with points gained by leveling up
> ...


the colored part wasn't even an RPG element there a a lot non RPG game that has those and there are some RPG that doesn't. the bold one I disagree (at least in vanilla without the firewalker DLC) and the rest is the only RPG element left that in Mass Effect 2 and its not exactly uncommon in many non-RPG game out there.

I also think that New Vegas wasn't an RPG if they put out the RPG element to the level of Mass Effect 2 but they don't. They still have looting system, stat based combat and economy system that pretty much given in any RPG.

but whatever nothing you say will change my opinion and i doubt my argument will make me agree with me so let just agree to disagree here.


----------



## Krory (Feb 13, 2011)

Also, let it be known that left4lol knows more about genre classifications than:

EA
Bioware
ESRB

And every single video game critic that agrees with the assessment.

It's like when people claim Legend of Zelda isn't an RPG, or never was. No one can even come to consensus on what the Hell makes an RPG so here's a novel idea: LEAVE IT TO THE PROFESSIONALS.

I mean, why is it so important to people? When did people stop enjoying games just to argue over what genre of game it is?


----------



## left4lol (Feb 13, 2011)

Garrus said:


> Also, let it be known that left4lol knows more about genre classifications than:
> 
> EA
> Bioware
> ...


I don't i enjoy the game regardless of what genre it is i just stated my opinion thats all.

Like you say there are no consensus on what the Hell makes an RPG. if they could make an opinion why can't i. I don't make my opinion like a fact and it's not like those people is any better then i do.


----------



## Krory (Feb 13, 2011)

I mean everyone here - it doesn't matter and it's a ridiculous "consensus." If we can't trust the people that MAKE and JUDGE video games professionally, all their lives, then who can we trust? Stop trying to be a martyr.

And this is _my_ opinion - so like you tell me, deal with it.


----------



## left4lol (Feb 13, 2011)

Garrus said:


> I mean everyone here - it doesn't matter and it's a ridiculous "consensus." If we can't trust the people that MAKE and JUDGE video games professionally, all their lives, then who can we trust? Stop trying to be a martyr.
> 
> And this is _my_ opinion - so like you tell me, deal with it.


Done .


----------

