# Reference: Tobirama Vs Minato; SSM12!



## Trojan (Sep 16, 2014)

So, just for the sake of not closing it so to speak. 


Location : Narudo Vs Sasuke. 
Distance : 50m 
Knowledge : They are alive, so Minato knows about Tobirama, but Tobirama does not know about him.
Mindset : IC
Restrictions :Kurama. 

******

SSM12:

because I'm so tired of explaining my perspective about those 2 every damn time, I'll just post my opinion about them here. It may not be fully complete, but that how it is.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 16, 2014)

*
In Term of Jutsu.*

Both of these ninja are relying heavily on their teleporting jutsus, FTG. However, Minato is greater than Tobirama with the teleporting jutsus as Tobirama admitted in two places, [1][2], or how the Anime clearfield it even further as Tobirama teleported first [1], yet Minato arrived first [2]. Regardless, some people may argue 2 things. The first is that FTG cannot be slower since it's a teleporting jutsu. However, that was proven wrong by Tobirama himself [1]. The other thing is that Tobirama said "shunshin" not "FTG". However, FTG was called as a shunshin like 12 times, that cannot be a coincidence, or can it be? 
[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]

Not only that, but Tobirama even praised Minato for being fast at striking as well [1]. While Tobirama showed the usage of 1 Kunai against Madara, Minato uses a lot of them during the battle, examples of that would be his fight against A & B or his fight in the 3rd War [1][2]. Based on that Minato is as proved by Tobirama himself is indeed better, especially as Minato was praised to be the fastest ever [1], while Tobirama was praised to be the the fastest during his era [1]. Thus, Minato's teleporting jutsus that he shared with Tobirama give him the edge because of his mastery over them like FTG, and Goshun Mawashi. I may argue that Minato's slashes with the Kunai are also better than that of Tobirama, since when Minato attacks there is no window to dodge as with Tobirama, examples of that are [1][2][3]. Unlike Tobirama, [1][2]. In addition to that, Minato's Kunai are heavier [1] and also have a great deal of power [1].

As for defensive cases, Minato's greatest defensive moves are his S/T barrier which can deal with moves as strong and the TBB [1][][3]. On the other hand, Tobirama's move is his Water Wall, which has the feat of protecting him from Hiruzen's Fire Dragon [1].

About shunshin, Minato still has some of the best feats in the manga; [1][2][3][4][5][6]. Crossing Konoha in no time, stopping Kakashi before he could even move his hand, and separating the Kunai before the Hokages even arrive. On the other hand, Tobirama has none, but rather, he was shown to be actually slower than Hiruzen [1] who's a 3 out 5 in terms of speed. 

Either way, Kishi focused on Minato's speed a lot showing him surpassing those with the greatest speed in a lot of cases. Like he did with Obito's Kamui [1], A's top speed [2], Tobirama's speed, [3], Kakashi's Kamui's speed [4], and 8th Gate Gai's speed [5]. 

That's in terms of their teleportation jutsus (other than the Water Wall) which they rely on heavily. Both of them are sensor type ninja, they can sense the chakra by their fingers or not. Minato can sense with even one finger [1][2], unlike Tobirama who uses two fingers for that [1]. Both have clones, and can use the 4 suns barrier, so they are more or less even in this regard. However, Minato can easily break this when he use his SM to improve all of his base stats and make his sensing, chakra, and other things more powerful, although that is only for a short time [1]. In addition to that those feats alongside the previous ones are more than half of Tobirama's arsenal. 

As for offensive moves, Tobirama also has his Water Severing Wave which was able to cut throw some of the Tree's branches [1]. However, we saw a lot of things can cut through them as well [1][2][3][4][5], so it does not really prove how powerful this jutsu is, not to mention Minato was able to cut the branches without even using his arms []. In addition to that, Minato also has his Rasengan that was able to damage Obito heavily despite Obito having Hashirama's cells, but he lost his arm and the earth surface underneath him was completely destroyed [1]. So, by feats, the Rasengan has a greater offensive power than Tobirama's jutsu. 

Another jutsu that Tobirama has is his Water Dragon [1]. But even that falls short against Minato's Food Cart Destroyer jutsu that was able to put even Kurama down for a while [1][2]. 

One of Tobirama's most powerful jutsu is Edo Tensei. However, he does not really have feats with it, and we have no idea what kind of people that he can summon. However, we know that by Kabuto's statement even Oro's part 1 ET was greater than that of Tobirama's [1][2][3], so I would assume that Tobirama's ET was not meant for the power of the summoned people, but rather for his strongest offensive move which is Mutually Multiplying Explosive Tags, which was implied by Madara as well [1]. In addition to that, we know that the ETs have a contract from Madara's statement [1]. And we know that Minato can break the contract by his contract seal [1]. So, really it won't be much of use for Tobirama either. 

Now, Minato also has a summoning jutsu, but instead of summoning the dead, he summons the frogs. Unlike Tobirama's case we actually know the frogs and we know their jutsus.

As Tobirama's feats and jutsu stop as far as this. Minato has shown a great mastery over the sealing jutsu that he can even do some with one hand [1], his seals are so strong that B admitted that it's stronger than his own [1], and A stated that they are special seals as well [1], and we know that Kushina taught him a lot of sealing jutsu [1]. Some of those sealing jutsu that we know of are Dead Demon Consuming Seal, Four Symbols Seal, and Eight Trigrams Sealing Style. 

Minato also has
Chakra Transfer Technique 
Sage Mode


----------



## Trojan (Sep 16, 2014)

Part 2:

*
The Chakra*. 

Some people may argue that Tobirama has more chakra than Minato, and that is based heavily on Obito's statement about Asura and what he inherited from his father [1].  But, is that true? No, probably not. The first thing, Obito according to that translation did not even mention the chakra to begin with to say that Tobirama must have more than Minato based on his lineage, but only was it proven later on that just because you're related to a person, it does not necessarily mean that you get everything automatically, and that happened to Asura himself [1][2], what are the odds that it did not happen to Tobirama who came several hundreds of years after him? 

On the other hand, we know for sure that Minato had a massive amount of chakra since he has a perfect SM, which required such a huge chakra [1]. 

In addition to that, some people might use the argument that Tobirama made the wall crack, but how does that prove that he has more chakra than Minato? have not Hiruzen and Oro done the same thing during their fight? But still they did not get all that much chakra, Hiruzen has only 3 in the Databook, so that feat does not really prove anything at all. 

Also, stating that Minato got tired after teleporting Kurama means he does not have a great amount of chakra, or Tobirama has more because he teleported both Kuramas. That is cool and all, except, Minato was alive back then, and he dealt with Kushina's seals for hours and then fought Obito and all the other things. *HOWEVER*, Tobirama was only an ET, and he got his chakra restored every time he gets drained, so it's just natural that he won't worry about that stuff. Had he been alive, he wouldn't have been able to continue fighting after the 4 suns barrier since he was already exhausted before the fight even started[1].  So, I don't think it's fair to compare the 2 situations! 

I also find the fact that Tobirama is not a SM user like his brother is proof that he does not have enough chakra to learn it.



*
In Term of Battles. *

We either have some scan of their battles, or not even completed fights. Therefore, I will rely on both the scans we have about the fight, and the statements that were made for the given fights. 

First of all, one of the fights we know that Tobirama fought in is the battle when fought Kin & Gin. One of the fights he fought with them was a surprise attack against him and the 2nd Raikage with him, as a result of this fight Tobirama almost got killed by them [1][2]. In the other fight against Kinkaku Unit which has 20 shinobi, it's when they finally were able to kill him. What we know about that from the scans we have is the fact that Tobirama and his 6 students thought that fighting against Kinkaku and his team it just too much for them [1]. He ended up getting defeated by them [1][2].

While also we know that Kin & Gin have Kurama's chakra within them, but we know that Kinkaku does not use it unless someone has taken Ginkaku out according to Kakuzu [1]

On the other  hand, Minato fought against A & B several times, a team which was stated to be superior and is the strongest team in Kumo [1]. ِAlthough we only have some scans of their fight and the rest remains unseen, we know that Minato is superior to them from their own mouths [1][2]. Current B, was trembling just because Naruto's mentioned his father's name, he wouldn't tremble if Minato was inferior or equal to him. Not to mention he was not fighting Minato alone, but with A alongside him, so that's enough to be sure that he alone can't deal with Minato, otherwise he would destroy Minato with A! Anyway, A also admitted inferiority to Minato [1]. So, A believes that there is no man who can surpass Minato, which is a straightforward statement that Minato is the superior one, not only superior to both A & B, but anyone else according to A (who by the way know about Kin, Gin, Tobirama, his father...etc)

Other battle is almost one scan, which is Tobirama's battle against Izuna [1].
Izuna in that scan was not even using his MS, so I think it's safe to assume that Tobirama had the edge because Izuna's chakra became so low that he couldn't keep his sharingan activated anymore. On top of that we do not even know
how powerful Izuna was to begin with. It's also worth to mention that the translation that some of Tobirama's fans use to prove Izuna's power is actually wrong, Itachi (whose knowledge in that regard was proven to be wrong) did not say that Izuna was as powerful as Madara, but rather they were training together [1], and that's all. Izuna in the flashback was even shocked that there was someone who's stronger than his brother! 

Minato on the other hand fought against Obito who was trained by Madara as well. Not only that but he also has Hashi's cells and he was controlling Kurama, who was attacking the village. On top of that he attacked Minato off guard, yet he still got his ass handed to him. Even though he has a superior jutsu to both Minato and Tobirama's s/t jutsus. 

So, once again Minato fought superior foes to that of Tobirama. 

We also know that ET Tobirama with his brother and Oro fought against old Hiruzen. In which he also ended up losing, it is true that he was not at his full power, but so was Hiruzen and even if we ignored that it's still one of his battles.

On the other hand Minato was fighting in the 3rd war and pretty much changing the entire result from Konoha losing the war to Konoha winning the war, and it was even stated that he ended his battles in a blink of an eye. As we know that in the front line, there were 1000 shinobi as Minato stated [1] and he was sent there as well as defeating them. Throughout the War he also was defeating those ninja from Iwa [1][2][3][4][5] Ending the War [1].


----------



## Trojan (Sep 16, 2014)

part 3:

*The 4th World War.
*

The only time we got to see those two in a longer time that how we saw them before was in the 4th War, and I have covered different areas about them in the other sections. This section will mainly be a comparison between the two and how Kishi portrayed them in almost the same situation. First of all, the first comparison Kishi made between them was their speed as Minato was the first Hokage to arrived [1], and after a while of his arrival Tobirama arrived acknowledging Minato's superiority over him [2]. The second one was against Obito, at first Tobirama faced mindless obito who was not in control of his power, and even though he succeeded to put some explosion tags on him and FTG mark, but that cost him half of his body [1], which is in a normal cased he would have be killed in that second. On the other hand, Kishi putted Minato against a superior obito, who actually can think and control his power, yet Minato suffered much less damage, which is only his 1 arm [2]. The third one we have is in term of teleporting other people. Minato was able to teleport an entire army out [1], on the other hand, Tobirama was shown to only teleporting 2 [2] which is after acknowledging that he can't accomplish the same feat [3]. Kishi, again showed Minato dealing with stronger, and more attacks than Tobirama, as Tobirama dealt with only 1 Gedu-dama [1], he had armless Minato dealing with 5 instead [2]. And finally, kishi putted Tobirama against pre-Juubi's host madara, and he ended up beaten very badly, even though he waited till madara put his guard down so to speak [1], but he but Minato, again, against the superior one, Madara after he became the Juubi's host [2]. Although both got fodderized, but the point is, Minato's foe was at a greater power, and while Tobirama was shut down, Minato was able to help his team further and make almost all of Madara's Gedu-damas completely useless.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 16, 2014)

Part 4:

*
In Term of Intelligence. *

Both Hokages are considered to be intelligent. Firstly, Minato is said to be a genius that appears once in a while [1]. He was praised to be intelligent as well by Tsunade, Jiraiya[1] and Naruto [1].  According to the sannin as well, he is not the guy who would do something without a reason [1][2]. In addition to that, he also stated that he could have handled the Uchiha Coup d'?tat better/earlier [1]. 

In terms of analysing the foe's jutsu, Minato has shown some of the best feats as well. First of all, he analysed Kakashi's chidori from the first time he saw it [1] He figured out how the jutsu worked and what its strong points and weaknesses as well. He was also able to analyze Obito's Kamui from the first time and counter it in no time [1][2][3].  Which took Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, and B a lot more time to find out about, and it took a lot of teamwork to overwhelm Kamui so to speak. Minato's feats continue, in the War when Obito trapped them. Tobirama tried to come up with a solution but Minato gave a better solution than that of Tobirama's[1][2]. His Idea of teleporting the Entire Tree, which Tobirama couldn't think of. He also analysed the Black Orbs [1][2][3]. He talked about the speed, distance, and the control, then he came up with a plan to deal with it, even though he only met Lee and Gaara for a minute or so! That's beside his plan for Naruto and the village by sealing only half of Kurama inside Naruto, so Konoha does not lose its Bijuu, and sealing his chakra and Kushina's chakra inside Naruto to help him.

In term of jutsus he created the Rasengan, Rasen-Flash Super-Circle Dance Howl Stage Three, S/T barrier, and improved the FTG to a higher degree than Tobirama. Also, according to the DT3 he was creating the jutsu after the other [1]. 


Tobirama's feats are that he thought of building a lot of constructions for Konoha [1], which are based on Hashirama's ideas [1]. That's in addition to creating some of the strongest jutsus like ET, FTG, clones, and the explosion tags jutsu. He also was/is a good politician and that's why he was thinking of Konoha when he decided to sell the Biuu rather than given them for the villages for free. That's beside the fact he noticed the Juubi's host weakness after the frog attack, and the fact that even the ET cannot regenerate if they got hit by the black stuff, after Obito's statement about the yin, and yang.
*
In Term of Hype. *

Tobirama some hype going for him.

Tobirama was hyped by the ANBU to be the ultimate shinobi [1]. He was also hailed as the fastest in his time according to Madara [1], and the greatest in the village at the time according to Danzo [1].


As for Minato; 

He was one of the finest ninja Konoha has ever produced , even the villagers wished that he was alive to deal with the threat [1], even in the presence of another Hokage during Kurama's attack on the village [2]. He was so talented that one of the sannin, Jiraiya stated that no one like him was born in a while [3], and that everyone pales in comparison to him [4] to the point where he thought that Minato was the child of prophecy [5][6][7], the one who will save the world [8]. Minato is also an excellent and superior ninja [9] that the Raikage thought that there is no one who could surpass him [10]. His power was to such an extent that because of it the villages gave a flee on sight orders, and that the ninja should run the moment they see him [11][12], even the likes of B, a perfect host was trembling the moment he heard his name [13], and the likes of Madara were waiting for him to go away so they can take their move [14]. Minato as a great Hokage [15], who deserved his title [16], was especially good with the teleportation jutsu that exceeds his predecessor [17][18][19], and his unique sealing jutsu [20][21], that he learned a lot of them from his wife, Kushina [22], and even Kurama himself acknowledged the complexity of the those seals [23] which required a great deal of ability []. In addition to that, Minato, who can do miraculous things [25], besides his ability as a ninja, who was thought to be a strong [26] saviour [27] that does not make mistakes [28] and had no failings [29] is a genius [30] that does not do anything without a reason [31][32], which can give a better results in a complex situation like in the uchiha's case [33].


and those are the areas that I can cover about those 2 Hokages from the information I have. Minato, Konoha's Yellow flash [1][2][[3], that Naruto [1], chose him from all the Hokages to be his goal to be a greater Hokage than him [1]. With some oh his power remain unseen, such as his element [1], his jutsu [2], and probably some others [3].



Zetsu [1]


----------



## Veracity (Sep 16, 2014)

It's close given that Minato can most likely summon the sage toads. Without that though he losses. Tobirama was pretty close to KCM Minato in terms of reactions and speed. Id assume he'd pressure base Minato .


----------



## Trojan (Sep 16, 2014)

^

summoning jutsu is part of his power. 
but anyway, I have nothing to say more than what I posted. That's my opinion about those two. U_U


----------



## Cognitios (Sep 16, 2014)

Summoning is part of power? Edo kaguya gg


----------



## Trojan (Sep 16, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Summoning is part of power? Edo kaguya gg



good for him.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 16, 2014)

I'll probably read all of that later, but I think Minato and Tobirama are equals for the most part.
Tobirama makes up for the disadvantage in speed with sensing and his tactical mindset. 

His Suiton and Edo Tensei boast offensive might, while Minato has prowess in the field of fuuinjutsu.


As for who would take the win? From a portrayal standpoint, I'd give the victory to Minato with extreme difficulty.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 16, 2014)

Minato even in base is a beast for sure. I still believe he's a top tier in base to the point that he can realistically defeat Tobirama and healthy Itachi. I see that as his level but Minato being slightly higher while in base. Once he gets to SM, KCM, BM Minato is only bested by Riduko power-ups, 8th gate (time frame), EMS Madara (and above), Juubito, Hashirama, and of Kaguya. Those are either God tiers or high top tiers.

So yeah Minato is a badass for sure


----------



## Kyu (Sep 16, 2014)

Tobirama:

More knowledgeable and methodical 
Slightly better stamina based on his Senju lineage 
Higher DC
Edo Tensei(featless; presumably weaker than Oro's/Kabuto's version)

Minato:

Adept in understanding jutsu mechanics under dire circumstances
Superior FTG
Faster _Shunshin_(by Tobirama's own admission)
A Master in Fūinjutsu
Summoning Contract (affiliation w/ Toads & The Shinigami)

In a nutshell:

KCM Minato >> Base Minato >= Tobirama


----------



## Trojan (Sep 16, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Minato even in base is a beast for sure. I still believe he's a top tier in base to the point that he can realistically defeat Tobirama and healthy Itachi. I see that as his level but Minato being slightly higher while in base. Once he gets to SM, KCM, BM Minato is only bested by Riduko power-ups, 8th gate (time frame), EMS Madara (and above), Juubito, Hashirama, and of Kaguya. Those are either God tiers or high top tiers.
> 
> So yeah Minato is a badass for sure



freaking Narudo, you did not mention freaking Narudo! O_O


----------



## Veracity (Sep 16, 2014)

Tobirama:
•More Knowledgable and more efficient tactics. 
• Better handspeed and reactions
• Sensor and better stamina.
• Better in CQC by virtue of handspeed and Senju bloodline.


Minato:
• More efficient FTG.
• Summonings + Senjustu 
•  Sealing Justu

KCM Minato> Tobirama > Base Minato.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> freaking Narudo, you did not mention freaking Narudo! O_O




I left out Sasuke as...just more typing than I like to do at times plus its pretty obv that I forgot those 2 anyways.


Minato > Current Gokage


----------



## Kyu (Sep 16, 2014)

> • Better handspeed and reactions


A disabled Minato reacted to 8th Gated Gai & casually trolls Ei's top speed.

How exactly does Tobirama have better reactions? 



> • Sensor


Minato is a sensory type shinobi as well. Evens out.



> and better stamina.
> • Better in CQC by virtue of handspeed and Senju bloodline.



Tobirama having fast 'handspeed' hardly matters when performing jutsu in close quarters combat seeing how all of his techniques that require hand seals are _mid to long range_ jutsu.

Mind explaining what advantages the Senju bloodline grants him besides stamina?


----------



## J★J♥ (Sep 16, 2014)

Tobirama has higher reaction speed, movement speed, hand speed, faster thinking than Kyuubi mode Minato idk about str.
He basically shits on base Minato in every aspect hundreds of times before minato blinks.

If anyone disagrees i can just post scans of Tobirama using 5 techniques before minato moves a finger.



Kyu said:


> A disabled Minato reacted to 8th Gated Gai & casually trolls Ei's top speed.



He did not react to shit. They moved in straight  line and he just teleported in middle of them and others where cooperating too


----------



## Mercurial (Sep 16, 2014)

Kyu said:


> A disabled Minato reacted to 8th Gated Gai & casually trolls Ei's top speed.
> 
> How exactly does Tobirama have better reactions?



Minato was blitzed by Juudara who couldn't keep up with 8th Gate Gai that blitzed and ragdolled him. Even 7th Gate Gai performed much better than Minato, his raw speed, reactions and taijutsu skills allowed him to fend Juudara without let him have the time to attack and to touch him with the Gudodama or Onmyoton, while Juudara could hit Minato two times with ease, the first to counter his Hiraishin blitz, when he cut his arm straight, and the second when he kicked him away. In the issue you are referring Gai was not moving at top speed to let everyone support him as possible: just think that a kunai tossed by Lee could move faster than 8th Gate Gai speed in that action...


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Sep 16, 2014)

I'll try to stay out of this debate so....for now

Edo Minato > Tobirama > Minato


----------



## Trojan (Sep 16, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Mind explaining what advantages the Senju bloodline grants him besides stamina?



I really don't feel like debating, but how does Tobirama being a Senju prove that he has more stamina than Minato again (a SM user)? 
on another words, how did you determined that the chakra a Senju has is greater than the enormous chakra that the SM required?


----------



## Turrin (Sep 16, 2014)

I feel like people are trying to draw blood from a stone here. We don't have enough information on Tobirama or Minato to really make a call on who is exactly stronger. We saw all of 1 Suiton from non-nerfed Tobirama, it's unclear if he uses Tandem-Explosive Tags outside Edo Tensei, and his entire usage of Edo-Tensei is unknwon. Tobirama also didn't have a huge amount of panel time in general. Minato's Hakke Seal, RasenFlaceDance, and elemental ninjutsu are still all a mystery to us. I think the safest thing is just to say they are on the same "level", while being unknown or possibly situation (depending on if Tobirama has Tensei prepped) who the superior fighter is.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 16, 2014)

Thank you. ^


----------



## Jagger (Sep 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I feel like people are trying to draw blood from a stone here. We don't have enough information on Tobirama or Minato to really make a call on who is exactly stronger. We saw all of 1 Suiton from non-nerfed Tobirama, it's unclear if he uses Tandem-Explosive Tags outside Edo Tensei, and his entire usage of Edo-Tensei is unknwon. Tobirama also didn't have a huge amount of panel time in general. Minato's Hakke Seal, RasenFlaceDance, and elemental ninjutsu are still all a mystery to us. I think the safest thing is just to say they are on the same "level", while being unknown or possibly situation (depending on if Tobirama has Tensei prepped) who the superior fighter is.


I agree with this.

I think, with the expcetion of Hashirama, all of the Hokage were stolen of their own time to shine and show new and original jutsu, the prime example being Minato. 

Bijuu Mode? Sage Mode? The jutsu he was supposed to use against Juubito? The lack of usage of Shadow Clones together with his FTG? Wasted potential.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 16, 2014)

Tobirama rustled Hussain's jimmies once again 
I'm not joking when I said that.
And Hussain's TL;DR smell the copy/paste

OT: It didn't change at all. It's always like this:
Edo Minato >> Edo Tobirama > Minato >= Tobirama


----------



## Kyu (Sep 16, 2014)

> He did not react to shit. They moved in straight  line and *he just teleported in middle of them* and others where cooperating too



Exactly & he was able to Teleport out was he not?

FTG activates upon the users reactions. 

So yes, he reacted. 



> In the issue you are referring Gai was not moving at top speed to let everyone support him as possible:



Minato told Gai to keep plunging straight ahead. There was no reason for him to suddenly slow down. Gai was moving as fast as he could given the situation.



> just think that a kunai tossed by Lee could move faster than 8th Gate Gai speed in that action...



Lee is a scrub & participated in assisting simply because of his connection to Gai. Outlier.

Minato is a hype monster known throughout the shinobi world for his God-like speed & reflexes. He also previously reacted to an entity far above his level in Juubito. Legit feat.



> OT: It didn't change at all. It's always like this:
> Edo Minato >> Edo Tobirama > Minato >= Tobirama



There we go.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 16, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> OT: It didn't change at all. It's always like this:
> Edo Minato >> Edo Tobirama > Minato >= Tobirama



Edo Tobirama is weaker than alive Tobirama.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Edo Tobirama is weaker than alive Tobirama.



But he can use his Explosion freely, which is a nice DC boost, something Alive Tobirama can't do.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 16, 2014)

So he will destroy himself and give the opponent a chance to seal him?
Well, that makes sense.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 16, 2014)

Hussain said:


> So he will destroy himself and give the opponent a chance to seal him?
> Well, that makes sense.



The opponent will likely die or getting incapacited or , if he's really lucky, Heavily injured.
Only Bijuu, Perfect Jin and Juubi Jin (Naruto included) can walk away with moderate to no injury after a attack like that.


----------



## joshhookway (Sep 16, 2014)

Kabuto called Edo Tensei the ultimate jutsu. By your logic, Tobirama has the best jutsu in that he can summon any dead ninja under his control. Minato has nothing of that caliber.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 16, 2014)

The way i see it being portrayed (which matters more than most people give credit to, as does hype because it was all created through Kishi's intentions) that Alive Minato was something special in all aspects of the word, a true savior of the world, whereas Tobirama in my opinion was just an overshadowed version of his brother who found true talent in battle strategy and being methodical. Remeber alive Tobirama was killed in the mist of war, simply because he wasn't strong enough to get himself and his team out. I believe after watching the Obito and Kurama evasion of the village that Minato could have got himself and his team out from danger from a group of jounins.

I also believe that Minato died before his time was due. If he remained alive it was evident that he would have further perfected the Rasengan and eventually became a perfect SM user ( he was a pure genius after all and was still young).

So yes its always going to be Minato > Tobirama in all cases for me.


----------



## joshhookway (Sep 16, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> The way i see it being portrayed (which matters more than most people give credit to, as does hype because it was all created through Kishi's intentions) that Alive Minato was something special in all aspects of the word, a true savior of the world, whereas Tobirama in my opinion was just an overshadowed version of his brother who found true talent in battle strategy and being methodical. Remeber alive Tobirama was killed in the mist of war, simply because he wasn't strong enough to get himself and his team out. I believe after watching the Obito and Kurama evasion of the village that Minato could have got himself and his team out from danger from a group of jounins.
> 
> I also believe that Minato died before his time was due. If he remained alive it was evident that he would have further perfected the Rasengan and eventually became a perfect SM user ( he was a pure genius after all and was still young).
> 
> So yes its always going to be Minato > Tobirama in all cases for me.



Hashirama died in battle too. Tsunade>Hashirama becuz she didn't die in battle?


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Sep 16, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I also believe that Minato died before his time was due. If he remained alive it was evident that he would have further perfected the Rasengan and eventually became a perfect SM user ( he was a pure genius after all and was still young).



This makes no logical sense...

1) Tobirama died at a relatively young age as well.
2) Tobirama is also a Genius and has proven himself to be vastly superior in battle interlect, jutsu creation, intelligence, and the history of the shinobi world along with jutsu recognition
3) Tobirama invented two of the most haxxed jutsus seen in the narutoverse(one that Minato is known for). IF he lived longer who says he would not advance them further

Tobirama would sh1t all over Minato in this department. Minato being the mangas "golden boy" on skill and intelligence has been retconned numerous times


----------



## RBL (Sep 16, 2014)

people are still debating this, i'm not going to give my explanations, but i think that it is this way.

KCM Minato >> itachi > Minato >= Tobirama


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Sep 16, 2014)

Brandon Lee said:


> people are still debating this, i'm not going to give my explanations, but i think that it is this way.
> 
> KCM Minato >> itachi > Minato >= Tobirama



The minute you put Itachi above Minato & Tobirama is when you should reread the manga again


----------



## Lawrence777 (Sep 16, 2014)

I don't think there's a tier's worth of difference between Minato and Tobirama. Tobirama has sensing and a stronger more lethal offensive attack. He's also smarter and more tactical imo.

Minato has a much more developed hiraishin between barriers, marked kunais, etc. It's not a tier difference worth of stuff in either direction though once you compare the two imo.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 16, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> Hashirama died in battle too. Tsunade>Hashirama becuz she didn't die in battle?



The death of Hashirama was never fully described , so using that for an argument it pointless and can not work. Though we do know that it was a group of jounins that took out Tobirama, for all we know he could have been a group of kage level ninja that got Hashi, so yeah can't use that.

Hashi>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tsunade / Alive Minato > Tobirama / Edo Minato >>>>Tobirama



Complete_Ownage said:


> This makes no logical sense...
> 
> 1) Tobirama died at a relatively young age as well.
> 2) Tobirama is also a Genius and has proven himself to be vastly superior in battle interlect, jutsu creation, intelligence, and the history of the shinobi world along with jutsu recognition
> ...




1) Tobirama was at least 10 years older than Minato when he died
2)Tobirama is also a genius, but thats not taking anything away from Minato
3)Nobody said he couldn't have, although how many Haxx'd ninja from that time was even available to bring back ? 

Minato getting shitted on by Tobirama is just too funny, I guess you are quite the comedian.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Sep 16, 2014)

IF there is a difference in level between Minato & Tobirama it's miniscule at best. The match will come down to who makes the first mistake or get's caught off guard. In my opinion it will be Tobirama who comes out victorious since hes smarter, more tactical and has more experience

Edo Tensei is an entirely different story


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Sep 16, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> 1) Tobirama was at least 10 years older than Minato when he died



At what age ninja hist there prime is irrelavent. Just look at the Sannin & Hiruzen then compare them to Itachi and Kakashi



> 3)Nobody said he couldn't have, although how many Haxx'd ninja from that time was even available to bring back ?



Tobirama & others have hinted he uses his Edo Tensei differently then Kabuto & Orochimaru. Durring "his time" there were a tons of haxxed shinobi...



> Minato getting shitted on by Tobirama is just too funny, I guess you are quite the comedian.



I was talking about intelligence not skill. Minato does not hold a candle to Tobirama in this department


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 16, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> At what age ninja hist there prime is irrelavent. Just look at the Sannin & Hiruzen then compare them to Itachi and Kakashi



Age does make a difference. Older you get the more time you can develop more jutsu or perfect your current ones...thats obvious, its nots necessary about the prime.



Complete_Ownage said:


> I was talking about *intelligence not skill. Minato does not hold a candle to Tobirama* in this department




I fear you came to this thread without even readin any of the opening posts.

_"*
In Term of Intelligence. *

Both Hokages are considered to be intelligent. Firstly, Minato is said to be a genius that appears once in a while [1]. He was praised to be intelligent as well by Tsunade, Jiraiya[1] and Naruto [1].  According to the sannin as well, he is not the guy who would do something without a reason [1][2]. In addition to that, he also stated that he could have handled the Uchiha Coup d'?tat better/earlier [1]. 

In terms of analysing the foe's jutsu, Minato has shown some of the best feats as well. First of all, he analysed Kakashi's chidori from the first time he saw it [1] He figured out how the jutsu worked and what its strong points and weaknesses as well. He was also able to analyze Obito's Kamui from the first time and counter it in no time [1][2][3].  Which took Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, and B a lot more time to find out about, and it took a lot of teamwork to overwhelm Kamui so to speak. Minato's feats continue, in the War when Obito trapped them. Tobirama tried to come up with a solution but Minato gave a better solution than that of Tobirama's[1][2]. His Idea of teleporting the Entire Tree, which Tobirama couldn't think of. He also analysed the Black Orbs [1][2][3]. He talked about the speed, distance, and the control, then he came up with a plan to deal with it, even though he only met Lee and Gaara for a minute or so! That's beside his plan for Naruto and the village by sealing only half of Kurama inside Naruto, so Konoha does not lose its Bijuu, and sealing his chakra and Kushina's chakra inside Naruto to help him.

In term of jutsus he created the Rasengan, Rasen-Flash Super-Circle Dance Howl Stage Three, S/T barrier, and improved the FTG to a higher degree than Tobirama. Also, according to the DT3 he was creating the jutsu after the other [1]. 


Tobirama's feats are that he thought of building a lot of constructions for Konoha [1], which are based on Hashirama's ideas [1]. That's in addition to creating some of the strongest jutsus like ET, FTG, clones, and the explosion tags jutsu. He also was/is a good politician and that's why he was thinking of Konoha when he decided to sell the Biuu rather than given them for the villages for free. That's beside the fact he noticed the Juubi's host weakness after the frog attack, and the fact that even the ET cannot regenerate if they got hit by the black stuff, after Obito's statement about the yin, and yang.
* "*_


----------

