# Tite Kubo vs Stan Lee



## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jun 10, 2012)

vs 



Scenario 1: They are both in their prime, and must best each other in hand to hand combat. 

Location: On top of a volcano inside of a cage suspsened above a platform in the middle of the volcano. On the platform is a pit of Asphalt filled with bloodlusted crocodiles and 10 tons of Dynamite. Dragonforce is playing.

Scenario 2: They are their current ages, and are at a comic convention when Kubo talks some smack, Stan Lee is tired of this bullshit and decided to try and kick Kubo's ass.


----------



## Derpaholic (Jun 10, 2012)

stan lee 



vs

tite kubo


----------



## Asune (Jun 10, 2012)

Kubo throws enormous amounts of ink to Stan lee face


----------



## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jun 10, 2012)

Stan Lee's moustache might absorb quite a bit of that Ink, but I don't know if he can tank Tite Kubo's level of Ink.


----------



## Sablés (Jun 10, 2012)

Shouldn't this be in the Joke Battledome?


----------



## Asune (Jun 10, 2012)

I think that Kubo wins this. Is not only the enormous amount of ink. If he forces Stan lee to read Bleach, then stan lee would die from being exposed to such terribleness


----------



## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jun 10, 2012)

ZeroX5 said:


> Shouldn't this be in the Joke Battledome?



Only Joke Battles go into the joke Battledome.


----------



## Sablés (Jun 10, 2012)

Some sort of zombie said:


> Only Joke Battles go into the joke Battledome.



So you're serious. 
Alright then, what are Stan Lee's feats, they have to be pretty impressive to be matched up against Kubo's trolling capabilities.


----------



## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jun 10, 2012)

Stan Lee can combat Tite Kubo's trolling with his quality, he basically created every iconic superhero ever.


----------



## Sablés (Jun 10, 2012)

Some sort of zombie said:


> Stan Lee can combat Tite Kubo's trolling with his quality, he basically created every iconic superhero ever.



Pretty sure DC already created Batman.


----------



## BrokenBonds (Jun 10, 2012)

Tite Kubo: _"Your progress as a writer has played out in the palm of my hand..."_

Stan Lee: _"!!"_


----------



## Rax (Jun 10, 2012)

Stan Lee is a God among Gods


----------



## egressmadara (Jun 10, 2012)

Kubo may have the better chance since he carries large amounts of ink.

In terms of actual writing, drawing, etc. , Lee stomps the living shiz out of him.


----------



## Asune (Jun 10, 2012)

Stan Lee attacks with quality, yet Kubo isn't affected, those glasses made of terrible, reflect quality


----------



## Shoddragon (Jun 10, 2012)

stan lee shows tite kubo who the hulk was realled based off of :ho


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jun 10, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WPRgtnYHk8[/YOUTUBE]

Replace Mags with Stan and Thor With Kubo.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jun 10, 2012)

Kubo pulls out his Pen and goes Plot-Kai Good Game Lee.


----------



## DeathScream (Jun 10, 2012)

stan lee isn't TOAA?


----------



## Glued (Jun 10, 2012)

Tite Kubo is in fact a better writer than Stan Lee.

He had to leech off of the greatness of artists such as Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby. They did all the work and Lee hogged all the glory.

Yeah he came up with the concepts, but it was Steve and Ditko that gave life to all the stuff.

Radiation made this.
Radiation made that
Radiation made everything.

Hell if you look at the original x-men it was an insert for fantastic four

Beast- Monster guy thing
Iceman- teenager that had fun Human Torch
Cyclops- Stoic leader Reed Richards
Jean Grey- the girl of the group Sue Storm

Hell you should read Stan Lee's reimagined Superman, the dialogue was horrible, the text was horrible.

Without Steve and Kirby, we get bullshit like the Chameleon (DTV animated movie of crap).

A tv series called Stripperella came out about ten years ago. Some stripper said that Stan Lee stole the idea from her and sued him for it. Though no proof was found, I believe her.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 10, 2012)

If you generalize enough, anything is a rip off of anything.

the guy made peter parker, doctor doom, the fantastic four and the hulk. Decades and decades ago

And harking on the background is meaningless, because radiation was the unknown science back then, the same way when genetics became the unknown science mutants were everywhere and everything.
Even spider-man had his origins retconed to be a gentic mutated spider rather than a radioactive one

The same way now everything is quantic. It's not legitimate to blame him for that.

Kubo has had the advantage to work on a medium that evolved decades after the work lee and his colaborators made mainstream

And what has he produced to make their legacy proud

shit shit shittititty shit shit

Fuck Kubo. Excelsior is the way.


----------



## Glued (Jun 10, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> If you generalize enough, anything is a rip off of anything.
> 
> the guy made peter parker, doctor doom, the fantastic four and the hulk. Decades and decades ago
> 
> ...



Mayuri Kurotsuchi's speech was better than any bit of dialogue Lee had ever produced. Kubo is a bad writer, but Stan Lee is downright atrocious.

What is Stan Lee without Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko, nothing. His reimagined Superman is in fact pretty new. His DTV Chameleon story was just godawful and it came out only a few years ago.

After 40 years, he's still a bad writer,

You should see his movie Mosaic, that is what he is without Kirby or Ditko.


----------



## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jun 10, 2012)

If you mean Mosiac I liked it :c


----------



## Glued (Jun 10, 2012)

Some sort of zombie said:


> If you mean Mosiac I liked it :c



Why do you like it.


----------



## Es (Jun 10, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> If you generalize enough, anything is a rip off of anything.
> 
> the guy made peter parker, doctor doom, the fantastic four and the hulk. Decades and decades ago
> 
> ...



He straight up said that Hulk was based off of Mr Hyde and Frankenstein

I also liked the Condor DVD movie


----------



## Revolution (Jun 10, 2012)

This is fun.


----------



## Lord Raizen (Jun 10, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> Tite Kubo is in fact a better writer than Stan Lee.



... My heart just skipped a few beats. 

You may not hold Stan Lee in as high a regard as many others for the reasons you've given, but nothing you stated compares to even a fraction of the horseshit that Kubo has created in just the past few years.

What Ban says is true, you cannot look at both Lee and Kubo's work in the same manner.


----------



## tanman (Jun 10, 2012)

They're both on the highest level of trolling.
This will be tough.


----------



## Blue (Jun 10, 2012)

Fun fact, everything that Stan Lee has ever come up with has been really, really stupid ideas.

But 9 year olds - his target audience - don't mind stupid ideas, and then people with some modicum of talent came in and wrote in some stuff that brought the level of the characters he created up from absurdly stupid to mildly interesting. But not all of his stupid ideas. 90% were too stupid to use at all. Look at this list of crap he pumped out.


Absorbing man? Great Gambonnos? Dredmud the Druid?
Really?

Anyway, then all those 9 year olds grew up and became consumers, writers and filmmakers, and now you have the utter shit Lee made 50 years ago being made into epic stories with the help of teams of professional artists, college-educated authors, Hollywood screenwriters and hundreds of millions of dollars.

Kubo's pretty bad but he's not a hack. And is Lee even an artist? I thought he was just a writer.
*checks*
Yeah, he's not. Writers who can't art are usually shit-tier wannabes not willing to put in the work. Any asshole can pretend to write. You can't pretend to draw.
Don't get me wrong, writers who are good enough to deserve the time and effort of an artist are awesome. But they're also rare.

And to actually pay attention to the OP, Kubo's a little asian man but even he can flip some nonagenarian's ass.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 11, 2012)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> Fun fact, everything that Stan Lee has ever come up with has been really, really stupid ideas.
> 
> But 9 year olds - his target audience - don't mind stupid ideas, and then people with some modicum of talent came in and wrote in some stuff that brought the level of the characters he created up from absurdly stupid to mildly interesting. But not all of his stupid ideas. 90% were too stupid to use at all. Look at this list of crap he pumped out.
> 
> ...



"Metal Master was an alien who can psionically control the atoms and molecules of metals like the rest of his species on a planet in the Galaxy of Astra. He was banished from his world for trying to take it over.

When he came to Earth, the Metal Master attacked Gamma Base and defeated the Hulk when he refused to join him. The Hulk returned with a plastic weapon; when the Metal Master's powers could not affect the gun, he was caught off guard and the Hulk easily beat him and forced him to reverse his actions."
[YOUTUBE]Kkc_Myyye20[/YOUTUBE]
"Absorbing man? Great Gambonnos? Dredmud the Druid?
Really?" What's wrong with them?


----------



## Es (Jun 11, 2012)

Motherfucking Absorbing Man once absorbed a Cosmic Cube, his only weakness is his massive PIS/CIS


Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> *Fun fact, everything that Stan Lee has ever come up with has been really, really stupid ideas.
> 
> But 9 year olds - his target audience - don't mind stupid ideas, and then people with some modicum of talent came in and wrote in some stuff that brought the level of the characters he created up from absurdly stupid to mildly interesting. But not all of his stupid ideas. 90% were too stupid to use at all. Look at this list of crap he pumped out.
> 
> ...


*

Pfft, Stan Lee's writing has the quality of being incredibly absurd and silly it's entertaining, I've personally read the Masterworks. And you forget a lot of his stuff was out during the 60's and shit, times change Blue. Kubo is just boring and drawn out.*


----------



## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jun 11, 2012)

In the real world the One ABove All is the Marvel writing team. I wouldnt count them since it's ganging up.


----------



## Blue (Jun 11, 2012)

Gomu said:


> powerful


----------



## The Saltiest Pizza (Jun 11, 2012)

I was thinking about posting this too. Looks like I don't have to now.


----------



## Blue (Jun 11, 2012)

Colonel Awesome said:


> I was thinking about posting this too. Looks like I don't have to now.



You should have, it took me like 20 minutes to find the friend.


----------



## Styles (Jun 11, 2012)

Going by the pictures, I'd say Mr. Lee. 

Kubo has man-tits, a beer belly, and twigs as arms on top of it. At least Lee has that boxing stance going for him.


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Jun 11, 2012)

Co-creating motherfucking Doom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anything Kubo has ever done


----------



## Blue (Jun 11, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Co-creating motherfucking Doom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anything Kubo has ever done



Doom wasn't a supergenius chessmaster president-elect with mommy issues when Lee created him; he was just a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) in a mask. Named Dr. Doom as if that isn't a fucking stupid name.

People came in later and fixed him up, gave him backstory, gussied up his name to Victor Von Doom.


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Jun 11, 2012)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> Doom wasn't a supergenius chessmaster president-elect with mommy issues when Lee created him; he was just a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) in a mask. Named Dr. Doom as if that isn't a fucking stupid name.
> 
> People came in later and fixed him up, gave him backstory, gussied up his name to Victor Von Doom.



Still co-created him and a shit-ton other iconic comic book characters

A at best mediocre mangaka doesnt compare to that


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 11, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> [YOUTUBE]Kkc_Myyye20[/YOUTUBE]





Absorbing man's cool


----------



## Chuck (Jun 11, 2012)

TOAA solos


----------



## AfterGlow (Jun 11, 2012)

The Heart


----------



## DeathScream (Jun 11, 2012)

DAMN treize and his mad ninja skillz!


----------



## Kurou (Jun 11, 2012)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> as if that isn't a fucking stupid name.
> .



How the hell is Dr.Doom a stupid name?


----------



## Gone (Jun 11, 2012)

Marvel/DC comics are the shittiest fucking garbage ever written, I revile modern super hero comics. From the PIS, to the revolving door of life and death that every hero steps in and out of once every few years, to Batman still not snapping the Jokers fucking neck. Marvel/DC are proof that any story will fucking *SUCK* if it goes on for too long, or spans too many writers.

And honestly Lees original storys werent that great. Like others have said he wouldnt be anything without Kirby or Ditko. He created a good universe, but others came in and made it great (untill it started to suck again). Hes creative, but not a good writer.

Any decent manga or indy American comic are leagues beyond modern superhero comics. That being said I wouldnt exactally call Bleach a decent manga... Anyway Stan Lee wins this due to having more fanboys, but still their both just terribly awefull...


----------



## Blue (Jun 11, 2012)

Kurou said:


> How the hell is Dr.Doom a stupid name?



As parodied by Dr. Evil, and further by Dr. Girlfriend et. al, people who name themselves after generally reviled concepts or things (or just have really unfortunate family history) are ridiculous. If Dr. Doom named himself he'd have been Dr. Sovereign or Dr. Majestic or Dr. Indomitable, none of which are awesome names but at least make sense for the character.
He might as well have been named "Dr. I'm-going-to-fuck-you-up-because-I'm-a-dick."

You can't even argue that "Well his name is actually Doom" because other writers came in later and made him von Doom, which definitely took the edge off the absurdity of it but there's only so much you can do with something that silly.

And you know Dr. Doom wasn't even the first Dr. Doom?


*Spoiler*: __ 







Guess who created that fucking piece of shit? Same asshole, Stan Lee, six months before he came up with Doom. Just tossing this poop until some of it stuck to the wall.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 11, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Marvel/DC comics are the shittiest fucking garbage ever written



ahahahahahahahaha

oh man, you definitely sound like one of those asshurt Spacebattles posters in the Vs Forums 

just calling it like I see it


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 11, 2012)

also, this thread makes me want to stab someone with a screwdriver


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 11, 2012)

this thread 

Stan the Man


----------



## 8-Peacock-8 (Jun 11, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2pOaNcbRlw&feature=watch_response[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5-JVvCrGC8&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Blue (Jun 11, 2012)

8-Peacock-8 said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5-JVvCrGC8&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## 8-Peacock-8 (Jun 11, 2012)

"MAGNETO THROW THE CARS YOU FUCKING IDIOT!"


----------



## Gone (Jun 11, 2012)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> ahahahahahahahaha
> 
> oh man, you definitely sound like one of those asshurt Spacebattles posters in the Vs Forums
> 
> just calling it like I see it



Responding to that one thing I said without actually adressing the reasons why I say their shitty, spoken like a true fanboy.

like I said Marvel/DC suck because:

1) The revolving door of life and death, every character eventually dies then cmes back, usually several times. For example:

Peter Parker
Jean Grey
Steve Rogers
Jean Grey
Betty Ross
Jean Grey
Superman
Bruce Wayne
Thor
*Insert every other character name here*

Its gotten to the point where character deaths are meaningless. I remember they tried to turn Steve Rogers death into this big emotional story, and when it happened all the fans just shrugged and said he would be back in a year... and he was.

2) Possibly the most PIS ridden characters in fiction. Thor goes from getting KOed by Captain America to driving off Galactus? please... Deathstroke solos the JLA?  Jobberine crawls out of a pool of lava as nothing but a skeleton? And dont even get me started on how the fuck adamantium tendons are supposed to work...

3) The storys are repetative as shit now. Joker breaks out of Arkham, kills a bunch of people, Batman locks him back up, rinse, rep. Batman still wont slit his throat.

4) Most importantly, when a story has no end it has no real meaning. These fucking superhero storys that go on forever and span so many writers eventually have too many shitty arcs that it just ruins the entire thing. That Spiderman One More Day crap is proof of that.

Dont get me wrong I like some Indy Marvel/DC storys, I liked Superman: Red Son, I liked a lot of the Batman storys, I like most of the Marvel movies, and of course Nolans Batman, but i cant read any of this crap that actually follows the main series anymore.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 11, 2012)

Kubo better get Lee his coffee.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 11, 2012)

60s SpiderMan is the shit 


Red Son was pretty good


----------



## Es (Jun 11, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Responding to that one thing I said without actually adressing the reasons why I say their shitty, spoken like a true fanboy.
> 
> like I said Marvel/DC suck because:
> 
> ...



You neglect to mention the window for his Resurrection was open for a while if you actually read the fucking Death of Captain America arc you dong.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 11, 2012)




----------



## mali (Jun 11, 2012)

loool kub being better than stan lee

at anything


----------



## Gone (Jun 11, 2012)

Es said:


> You neglect to mention the window for his Resurrection was open for a while if you actually read the fucking Death of Captain America arc you dong.



Even if its open for a few years its still pointless, because it takes all the real emotional value away from a  character death when they eventually, inevitibally come back every time. I mean a hero or villian coming back from the dead once is dramatic, it happening to everyone every time is stupid.

Its again part of teh biggest problem with superhero comics, that they last too long and span too many writers. One writer decides to kill off a character, then a few years later another decides to try and bring them back. A truly great story has to come from the inspiration of a single writer to remain uncompromised.


----------



## Blue (Jun 11, 2012)

8-Peacock-8 said:


> "MAGNETO THROW THE CARS YOU FUCKING IDIOT!"



More like grab a cop's badge and decapitate everyone.


----------



## Es (Jun 11, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Even if its open for a few years its still pointless, because it takes all the real emotional value away from a  character death when they eventually, inevitibally come back every time. I mean a hero or villian coming back from the dead once is dramatic, it happening to everyone every time is stupid.
> 
> Its again part of teh biggest problem with superhero comics, that they last too long and span too many writers. One writer decides to kill off a character, then a few years later another decides to try and bring them back. A truly great story has to come from the inspiration of a single writer to remain uncompromised.



If a character is popular enough, with readers, writers or editors they will come back. And resurrections are not exclusive to comics but all kinds of media


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Jun 11, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Marvel/DC comics are the shittiest fucking garbage ever written



I thought that was SW EU


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 11, 2012)

Es said:


> If a character is popular enough, with readers, writers or editors they will come back. And resurrections are not exclusive to comics but all kinds of media



Dragon Ball being one of the most well-known examples


----------



## Blue (Jun 11, 2012)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Dragon Ball being one of the most well-known examples



Naruto sadly probably more so now.

That said, most genres of storytelling actually end, so dead characters don't have the opportunity to come back regardless of their popularity, which is for the best, really.


----------



## Calamity (Jun 11, 2012)

Stan does this in his spare time these days: 


*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 








Can Kubo match that?


----------



## Es (Jun 11, 2012)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> Naruto sadly probably more so now.
> 
> That said, most genres of storytelling actually end, so dead characters don't have the opportunity to come back regardless of their popularity, which is for the best, really.



Comics sometimes end or get new writers


----------



## Gone (Jun 11, 2012)

I dont use Dragon Ball and Naruto as an example of great storys either. And honestly it still happens more in Marvel/DC.

The ressurection thing is only one example of why I hate superhero comics now tbh. I mean Supernatural is one of my favorite shows, and I have the same problem with that. They trivilaze Death to the point where everybody in the show has died and come back at some point.

The difference is thats my only real problem with the show, if you go back and read my original post its one of several problems I have with modern superhero comics.



Black Leg Sanji said:


> I thought that was SW EU



Ive actually said many times there are EU storys I really like. I liked the young jedi knight novels and a lot of the old republic stuff. Certain other storys are shit, but thats true of many fictions.

Although certain experiences Ive had here on the OBD have soured me twords Star Wars a bit


----------



## Blue (Jun 11, 2012)

You know what made a great story out of trivializing death? The  series. Everyone's mind is stored in a chip in their brain, and if you die you just put the chip in a new body, so everyone has died 17 times before the book is halfway through.

But then someone purposely destroys someone's chip. And even though it's basically the same thing as normal death in any other story, it feels to the reader like they just did something unspeakably horrific, like raping baby Jesus or mixing coke with their milk.


----------



## DeathScream (Jun 11, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> 60s SpiderMan is the shit
> 
> 
> Red Son was pretty good



but the 90's has the best Theme EVAH!

[YOUTUBE]tR6ihyqWTGo[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]Qt7tVxO48n8[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 11, 2012)

60s doesn't give a darn about 90s' theme


----------



## Basilikos (Jun 11, 2012)

Kubo has ink spills, THE HEART, 0 Espadas, Kendo, resolve power ups, and vertical explosions. 

GG Stan


----------



## 8-Peacock-8 (Jun 11, 2012)

Basilikos said:


> Kubo has ink spills, THE HEART, 0 Espadas, Kendo, resolve power ups, and vertical explosions.
> 
> GG Stan



Stan is the hulk and has Spiderman powers. 

He also one shot the bat mobile. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZGVRN0iwgo[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 11, 2012)

Some comics suck, other are great, it all just depens of the writer, and that's why judging them by the inconsistencies that they may have over may years is kinda dumb.
And is not like mortality in most of the mangas was any different, Gantz, Dragon Ball, and almost any other shounen mangas are the same, character never die.
Also do yourself a favor and read X-Men, and Batman Grant Morrison runs.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 11, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Marvel/DC comics are the shittiest fucking garbage ever written, I revile modern super hero comics. From the PIS, to the revolving door of life and death that every hero steps in and out of once every few years, to Batman still not snapping the Jokers fucking neck. Marvel/DC are proof that any story will fucking *SUCK* if it goes on for too long, or spans too many writers.
> 
> And honestly Lees original storys werent that great. Like others have said he wouldnt be anything without Kirby or Ditko. He created a good universe, but others came in and made it great (untill it started to suck again). Hes creative, but not a good writer.
> 
> Any decent manga or indy American comic are leagues beyond modern superhero comics. That being said I wouldnt exactally call Bleach a decent manga... Anyway Stan Lee wins this due to having more fanboys, but still their both just terribly awefull...



Sums up my feelings exactly.

Also, I'm no fan of Stan Lee, but Kubo just became depressingly bad during the Hueco Mundo arc and has only gotten progressively worse since.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 11, 2012)

Ryjacork


That is an incredible stupid opinion you got going on.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 11, 2012)

A man who has the greatest living impact in the iconography and the defining strokes of modern western mythology, back in World War II era vs THE HEART


Hard choice.


----------



## Glued (Jun 11, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> *A man who has the greatest living impact in the iconography and the defining strokes of modern western mythology*, back in World War II era vs THE HEART
> 
> 
> Hard choice.



You talking about Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 11, 2012)




----------



## Huey Freeman (Jun 11, 2012)

Ben Grimm said:


> You talking about Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko?



Definitely Jack Kirby.


----------



## Neo-jplaya (Jun 11, 2012)

1. Stan was in the army, so I say him

2. could go either way.


----------



## Gone (Jun 11, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Ryjacork
> 
> 
> That is an incredible stupid opinion you got going on.



Not that Im suprised to hear this, I mean superhero comic fanboys arent exactally rare around here, but Im a little suprised to hear it flat out stated like that. Is there anything untrue about what I actually said? Or are you just calling me stupid for insulting a popular fiction that you like?

I mean I get how this will probably play out on these forums, you being one of the more popular posters, calling out me, who has an unpopular opinion. But going just by general standards of debating or opinions in generall, thats a pretty stupid statement youve got there.


----------



## OS (Jun 11, 2012)

Kentaro Miura solos


----------



## Gone (Jun 11, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> Kentaro Miura solos



^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## All Star Rogue (Jun 12, 2012)

I need to find an appropriate face to express my reaction at there being a debate about whos a better writer when the thread is about who wins in hand to hand combat. But one may just not exist.

No, really guys look, 





> Scenario 1: They are both in their prime, and must best each other in hand to hand combat.
> 
> Location: On top of a volcano inside of a cage suspsened above a platform in the middle of the volcano. On the platform is a pit of Asphalt filled with bloodlusted crocodiles and 10 tons of Dynamite. Dragonforce is playing.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kirito (Jun 12, 2012)

Jet Lee wins.


----------



## All Star Rogue (Jun 12, 2012)

Kirito said:


> Jet Lee wins.



Brilliant. The answer was right there in front of us the whole time!


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 12, 2012)

Oh god this thread, let's get something out of the way, I do not have a problem with people not liking marvel/DC, nor do I share any mentality of J-purism or comic purism, read/watch whatever I like and don't care what country it's from as long as it's something that appeals to me and I can understand it(translated official or fan). But certain things need being addressed here

1. They keep coming back: Someone just mentioned Supernatural, a good show where characters keep coming back from death, a lot but he admits he likes it. It's the same with comics. Plenty of fiction have characters coming back e.g Doctor from Doctor who has many incarnations and he's the same person. 

2. They go on forever: There are lots of fiction that have gone on for decades e.g Transformers, Doctor Who, Starwars and many anime/manga have gone for 20 years atleast. Now while characters coming back from death ruining emotional moments is reasonable, this is not an excuse. Don't have to read every comic, nor should that influence everything else in the comic like art or plot or fights or dialogue etc. Not to mention this is'nt even true for all comics, Vertigo has stuff that ends. Marvel has the new universe and Ultraverse which have ended.

And here's a great solution, don't like a certain character/group anymore?Move onto another one, there are enough characters within almost half a century worth of the companies existence for someone to choose from plus new ones being introduced. Want to keep reading about a character/group without not having them being around a lot?Read something from an alternate reality which would justify a character being around, plenty of versions of various characters exist due to alternate universes/futures. It's like how you can watch Batman cartoons or movies that take place in different universes but are set around familiar characters. E.g how Jack Nicholson Joker, Ledger Joker and Mark Hamil Joker exist in different universes but are all still Joker with some differences brought about by their actors and different writers. You don't have to stick with one universe. That's advantage for things that have a multiverse like Transformers, Marvel, DC/Vertigo, Digimon etc. 

Or just take a break till things get better i.e a better writer comes along for the character/group/series or they make something new either in the main universe or in some alternate universe.

Decent manga/Indy comics>Marvel/DC: DC alone has Lucifer and Sandman, highly acclaimed works considered some of the best fiction. The idea of a 'decent manga' being better is about as hilarious as calling Marvel/DC as teh worst ever(there are so many things worse like Twilight, novelisations that deal in garbage porn involving dragons and stuff, K-ON and so many more it's not funny). It sounds like whining and blind hate, nevermind that what counts as a decent manga is very vague itself. And while I don't doubt certain obscure comics are good, there are also bad ones(hell mentioning some good comics or fiction in general most people have never head of is never bad, it spreads awareness of it) . It just sounds like an attempt at being edgy and cool, reading/listening/watching to stuff that is'nt very well known does'nt make it better than something that is well known and vice versa. 

I could easily stereotype anime as harem/loli/moe/fanservicey bullshit too. Lots of that stuff is common nowadays with pandering to Otaku, so it's quite easy to bring up things like K-ON, High School of the Dead, Infinite Stratos etc but that would be ignoring great stuff like Legend of Galactic Heroes, Studio Ghibli stuff, Slam Dunk, Tiger and Bunny etc. 

This post is'nt forcing anyone to read a comic or go for anime/manga if the user has never touched anything outside one of those, it is however to address certain arguments. Thread was stupid to begin with outside the nostalgia trip/vids.

But let's also mention Marvel Halo


And DC Supernatural


Non canon won't change that comics like Marve, DC, darkhorse have comics of various shows/cartoons/movies/novels etc e.g Stephen King's Dark Tower by Marvel


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Jun 12, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> I dont use Dragon Ball and Naruto as an example of great storys either. And honestly it still happens more in Marvel/DC.



How about doctor who and one piece? Remind yourself how many times Doctor Who has brought back the Dalek race or One Piece has brought back Mr 2 Bon Clay.


----------



## Blue (Jun 12, 2012)

>One Piece
>Great story

Heh. I laughed a little.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 12, 2012)

> High School of the Dead


I've seen it and liked it .. for what it is 

otherwise agree with TF



I mostly don't read longer ongoing comics series, but that doesn't mean they're bad or the worst piece of fiction ever


----------



## BatoKusanagi (Jun 12, 2012)

Prime Kubo stomps. Mid-diff for Kubo on scenario 2.


----------



## I3igAl (Jun 12, 2012)

Fist fight: Both in prime = Stan Lee, Current Kubo looks really outta shape but he should at least be able to beat someone as old as Stan Lee.

*Also:* You guys shouldn't take classic comics too serious. Just look at old horror movies and compare. Those stories are more about exploitating some random crazy idea(have our hero fight Dracula/What if their was a guy who could ... ), than about really creating a story like nowadays. Oh the people loved that movie about an Alien invasion? Let's have our newly created superhero fight some Rockman from Outer Space. I highly doubt those stories were to be taken 100% seriously. Like many movies they should be considered kinda self-referential.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 12, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Or are you just calling me stupid for insulting a popular fiction that you like?



SIGH



First of all, I have yet to state having a stupid opinion makes you automatically stupid

Second of all, it is true. I am a more popular member of this forum. 

Part of it is because every once in a while I get to take a post that coments on merits of popularity and get to say the following

Assuuuuuming no one has gone over this with you yet, judging an entire genre of what is modern western mythology based on a single plot trait is terrible, because the instinct of a world of fantasy and limitless possibilities the instinct to bawl at every unpalatable thing is at the least, stupid.
Ressurections are impossible, but so is time travel and spider-powers.
It's true, we read comic books stories not only for the good art, both visual and literary, but also for the escapism, and it is natural for us to be mistrusting when the universe we so much enjoy shows a little weakness in consistency, but truth is, you want someone to believe in.
You want to close your eyes and believe that it is possible for someone, or something to beat even that which no one can truly escape.
A transcendence of humanity into icon.

Shit, you don't hate Jesus and lazarus, and the other seven instances when someone comes back to life in the bible just because they do, do ya?

That is not to say that when they do come back, it doesn't come at a cost. These characters are molded and shaped by the biggest deepest scar possible in the human psyche, and their return sacrifices something which they can't event ever recover, which is their personal identity as a man. If they are to become more than human, they have to sacrifice that much, and that is a tragical loss, conflict that drives them to greater heights than ever before

So the only reason that you could possibly detest comic books because of you perceived cheapening of death, even though many many characters remain dead, even the iconic Jean Grey who gets a much too bad of a wrap for her actual "crimes" is because in truth you feel lied to. 
This becomes even more evident because of the fact you complained about all the dead heroes, but the villains who never go away are yet to come across your mind as as an equally annoying problem
You feel like there was this flat bore in your soul and now that you've shared the drama of a fallen hero in your life, you are that much more special even if on the fictional plane, and that their return rather than inspire you to take a lesson in transcendence into your heart, comes instead to take your artistic brooding away.
Like there's something in story telling that is owed to you.

Which is a stupid opinion.

But doesn't have to make you stupid

Banhammer Science


----------



## OmniOmega (Jun 12, 2012)

Stan Lee curbstomps


----------



## Judas (Jun 12, 2012)

Death is a revolving door in Supernatural and some people can still influence the activities of the living even while dead.

Supernatural is fucking terrible.


----------



## Tzeentch (Jun 12, 2012)

Vertigo Comics which is by DC has characters that have won many awards and they also have complex plots. 
Also dc created batman and superman which are the most iconic heroes ever and i could list more.
So calling DC shit is very stupid. 
And Marvel has many iconic superheroes and they also have the avengers and i could list more.
So calling Marvel shit is very stupid.


----------



## SilverSavio (Jun 13, 2012)

Blood God said:


> Vertigo Comics which is by DC has characters that have won many awards and they also have complex plots.
> Also dc created batman and superman which are the most iconic heroes ever and i could list more.
> So calling DC shit is very stupid.
> And Marvel has many iconic superheroes and they also have the avengers and i could list more.
> So calling Marvel shit is very stupid.



By your logic, no one can call anything that has spawned anything iconic shit. Truth is that sometimes the companies produce shit. 

Back to the debates.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 13, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 



TAVROS: wHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO,
VRISKA: I think it's time to start fucking some shit up.
TAVROS: oH, nO,,,
VRISKA: More like oh yes!
VRISKA: I'm sick of this shit. I'm sick of 8eing dead and useless and 8ored, and I'm not going to take it anymore.
VRISKA: You're with me, right?
TAVROS: nO WAY,
TAVROS: i LIKE BEING DEAD,
TAVROS: i LIKE IT HOW THERE ARE NO RESPONSIBILITIES, oR PROBLEMS, uSUALLY,


----------



## Majinvergil (Jun 13, 2012)

No contest Stan Lee


----------



## Gone (Jun 13, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Assuuuuuming no one has gone over this with you yet, judging an entire genre of what is modern western mythology based on a single plot trait is terrible, because the instinct of a world of fantasy and limitless possibilities the instinct to bawl at every unpalatable thing is at the least, stupid.



Im complaining about Marvel/DCs ongoing continuity, not the entire western comic book genre. And its not because of a single plot. I like to look at a story as a whole, beginning, middle, end/current point, so yes all comics do have some very good plots, but they also have some very terrible ones. And for me a story can only have so many terrible plots before it really ruins the entire thing, *especially when it all shares continuity*.

Like I said there are many indy Marvel/DC storys that I liked, but most of the modern stuff has just been weighed down by too many years of garbage.



> It's true, we read comic books stories not only for the good art, both visual and literary, but also for the escapism, and it is natural for us to be mistrusting when the universe we so much enjoy shows a little weakness in consistency, but truth is, you want someone to believe in.
> You want to close your eyes and believe that it is possible for someone, or something to beat even that which no one can truly escape.
> A transcendence of humanity into icon.



I also want emotional connection. One of the most powerful things about character deaths, as a plot device, is that it elicits emotional response from both the characters in the story, and just as importantly *the reader*. In mainstream superhero comics you only get one of those, because every reader knows its never permenant, and its a cycle every single character goes through.

And as i said in my original post the ressurection thing is one of many problems that I have with ongoing Marvel/DC titles. Its not even the biggest. My biggest problem with it is easily that it goes on and on and spans too many writers.

For example you have Peter Parker and MJ dance around each other for years, then they finally tie the knot. Then years later a shittier writer comes along and does a complete 180% on Spidermans story. And its canon so all the readers have to live with it. In fact look at what happened right before that, Peter Parker takes the goverment side in Civil war? After the fucking Green Goblin thing and Gwen Stacy?

This is my biggest problem, for any story to be great, or even good as a whole, it needs to be the creation of a single, uncompromising writer. If JK ROwling dropped dead, and then some yuppy came along and wrote Harry Potter part 8, and completley changed the basic logic and personality of the characters, how would you react to that?

Like I said there are many good independant Marvel/DC titles, but I simply cant read the mainstream continuity anymore.


----------



## Glued (Jun 13, 2012)

> for any story to be great, or even good as a whole, it needs to be the creation of a single, uncompromising writer.



Not necessarily. To create the dragonlance universe, Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis had to team up. There are also dozens of writers such as richard knaack who work in said universe.

Much of the EU is actually better than what Lucas wrote.

It all depends. Maybe you like the King Arthur of Geoffery of Monmouth who was a badass or perhaps Malory Darthur's King Arthur was a screw up, but overall a wise king who established the Round Table the eternal symbol of democracy.

Maybe you like disney snow white or perhaps whats in theaters right now, I haven't seen it.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 13, 2012)

> for any story to be great, or even good as a whole, it needs to be the creation of a single, uncompromising writer.



You know nothing of literature.

Let's put aside that any one that has ever read Good Omens is spitting their cereals at the screen right now, do you even know what an Editor is?

All non self published writing is compromise, with people whom the author most times comes out and thanks them for it


----------



## Gone (Jun 13, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> You know nothing of literature.



God I hate it when people make statements like that. Wtf makes you think your an expert.



> Let's put aside that any one that has ever read Good Omens is spitting their cereals at the screen right now, do you even know what an Editor is?
> 
> All non self published writing is compromise, with people whom the author most times comes out and thanks them for it



Ok fine you want to nit pick things down to my last word. For a story to be good then it has to have a single creative force thats uncompromising. meaning if there are multiple authors then they have to be on the same page, same goes for the publishers. In other words 20 years later a new author shouldnt come along and take characters in a completley different direction and put on different personalitys than what the original creator envisioned.

Do I have to explain what I was trying to say any farther now or are we getting it?

I mean I really shouldnt have to explain that quality comes down to preference. What makes a great or classic novel these days is mostly how much renown it has. 99.9% (before you jump on it, yes thats a made up statistic) of the readers saying that Harry Potter is a great book series dosnt make it a fact, it makes it a consensus.

If somebody came up to me and said that Naruto is better than Tolkiens work, I would disagree with them, but I wouldnt have the utter gaul to pretend Im the final authority on whats good and whats not.

I mean this may just be a futile debate, you like Marvel/DC continuity, I dont, we may just hit a brick wall at that. When i said they were shit I assumed anybody with half a brain reading the forum would know (obviously Im wrong considering the lovley little neg comment Narcissus left me) that it was simply my own opinion.

Unlike real debates on these forums, debates on quality can never come to a clear conclusion because everybody has different opinions and standards on what constitutes quality.



Ben Grimm said:


> Not necessarily. To create the dragonlance universe, Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis had to team up. There are also dozens of writers such as richard knaack who work in said universe.
> 
> Much of the EU is actually better than what Lucas wrote.
> 
> ...



Well then they pull it off better than Marvel/DC does.


----------



## I3igAl (Jun 13, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> If somebody came up to me and said that Naruto is better than Tolkiens work, I would disagree with them, but I wouldnt have the utter gaul to pretend Im the final authority on whats good and whats not.



But if you can give a few plausible reasons the other guy would have to agree with you. 
I really bad Action Films with Dolph Lundgren etc. or trashy Horrormovies, but I know they aren't good. At best those can be well executed Genre movies, which utilize some typical tropes and have no big plot holes and dialog, that doesn't sound too riddiculous.
I love some quite cheap Fantasybooks, which are neither written particularly well, nor do they have a unique story. A few month ago I read "Nausea" from Jean-Paul Satre, got bored and stopped it. I still totally see what Satre did there and understand, why this book became such an ifluential work. I know it's greater than some random Fatntasy books.



Ryjacork said:


> Unlike real debates on these forums, debates on quality can never come to a clear conclusion because everybody has different opinions and standards on what constitutes quality.



Which is totally true. But one still can show others, the lack of Quality in certain situations. If they writer overlooks certain characters abilities or has them job to others just cause he likes them(here we are back at the comics again) it isn't really brilliant writing. And if Edgar Allan Poe was the best at portraying situations and feelings by using metaphors, he is the best at this. One might still consider his work kinda low due to it's exploitation of certain motives(Orang-outan) to get the readers attention.

Also there actually are philosophers and psychologists, who specialize in searching for generell those genrell standards


----------



## Gone (Jun 13, 2012)

I3igAl said:


> But if you can give a few plausible reasons the other guy would have to agree with you.



Not at all, like I said quality is in the eye of the fan. Some people may very well think Naruto is better than Tolkiens books, im not arrogant enough to think Im some final word on literature.

In the end literature is just another part of the entertainment industry, and its soul job is to entertain. Whether that means making you think, making you cry, making you laugh, etc, its sole purpose is the enjoyment of the reader. So if one reader enjoys Naruto and the other enjoys Lord of the Rings, who says one is more valid than the other? Is a light manga or comic book any more valid than some deep novel?

Like I said I dont care for most superhero comics that are part of Marvel/DC continuity. I consider them below the bar of what makes good reading (mostly because I judge a story as a whole not on individual arcs) because theyve been bogged down by too many bad writers and bad storys, and they (again to me) drown out the good ones.

So when i say their shit, I mean from the bottom of my heart, IN MY OPINION their shit. Im not trying to say Im the final word on what makes something good or bad, and that in no way makes the opinion of those who like them less valid in my eyes.


----------



## Barioth (Jun 14, 2012)

This thread has derail. In before shitstorm of Comic vs Manga.


----------



## hammer (Jun 14, 2012)

I would like to point out many heros and villans do stay dead in comics


----------



## KuboPwnsStanLee (Nov 11, 2012)

Kubo trolls his readers with death all the time. Ichigo has been brought back by Orihime how many times? He trolls with Byakuya and Kenpachi's "deaths". I mean... come on. Comics aren't the only things that do this.


----------



## cnorwood (Nov 11, 2012)

^i would read your comment but your name is retarded


----------

