# Strongest Hokage?



## ToadFlameBomb (Sep 20, 2013)

I think that any "who's the strongest homage" threads are irrelevant because the answer has changed throughout the manga.


At the beginning of the series, minato is clearly pegged as the strongest homage. Naruto looked up to him (and I'm sure this is meant to foreshadow him being narutos dad)

Around the chunnin exams, this shifted. Hiruzen is given a lot of hyper, and stated to be the strongest hokage AND strongest kage.  This is further shown as the sannin develop and show their power. Hashirama and tobirama WERE suppose to be at full power during the hiruzen fight. The manga now says otherwise, but in the fight, they were clearly suppose to be at Max.

Towards the end of naruto 1 and throughout shippuden, yondaime was again hyper to be the strongest up through the pain invasion. Hashirama wasn't hyped until the encounter with madara

Now tobirama has gotten most of the screen time. My point is, kishimoto has changed favorite hokage several times.

All that can be said is that the 4 strongest Kage period are the 1st 4 hokages. Not a single other kage from any village can beat shodaime, nindaime, sandaime, or yondaime hokage


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## 2Broken (Sep 20, 2013)

Hashirama is the strongest Hokage by a fair margin and don't let anyone tell you different.


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## trance (Sep 20, 2013)

Hashirama is the strongest Hokage, excluding Minato's Jinchūriki forms (which were only accessible to him after his death). So, yea, Hashirama is the strongest.


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## crisler (Sep 20, 2013)

I used to believe Minato had the greatest potential and talent, but not the strongest as he died so young. He would've become the strongest if he lived longer. That was how I understood the manga.

Minato full potential > Hiruzen > Minato reality > hashi/tobirama hokage

This was what I had in mind...hiruzen being the strongest, but had minato lived longer he'd have surpassed him for sure.

Then things shifted...and obviously now Hashi is the strongest one

I wonder why Kishi made Hashirama so weak as an edo back in oro arc. Seeing the VoTE, Kishi already had Hashirama in mind as the final benchmark of Naruto from early part of the manga, as an extremely important and powerful shinobi (VoTE statue). Was it kishis' way of hyping hiruzen? or  is the edo feat not a plot mistake, but actually what kishi intended to do?


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## katanalauncher (Sep 20, 2013)

I doubt Minato's BM mode is stronger than SM Hashirama
With that said Hashirama is stronger by a margin, and all the other hokages are about the same.
Admittedly Minato without kyuubi chakra is probably a little weaker, seeing as kishi provided him a powerup before the battle.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 20, 2013)

Well if we're talking about physically strongest. . .


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## Legendary Itachi (Sep 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Well if we're talking about physically strongest. . .



Hashirama *Senju* with SM may still take this.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 21, 2013)

Honestly feel like if Hashirama had that kind of physical strength Madara would have made some sort of comparison to when she punched/kicked _Susano'o_ much like how he compared their medical abilities.

But who knows. . .


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## Jagger (Sep 21, 2013)

1. Prime Hiruzen.
2. SM Hashirama.
3. BM Minato.
4. Tobirama.
5. Tsunade.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 21, 2013)

Hashirama>>Minato(living)>=Tobirama>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tsunade and Hiruzen.


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## Kyu (Sep 21, 2013)

Hashirama>Minato>Tobirama>>>The other two


Meh.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2013)

What was showcased in the manga by feats: 

Current Minato > Hashirama > Minato > Tobirama > Danzo > Hiruzen > Tsunade

Overall, this is the scale by which these hokage would match up against the rest of the verse if they were to battle everyone individually. It goes left to right by factors of power and versatility, that is how I scale ninja.


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## trance (Sep 21, 2013)

Excluding Minato's KCM/BM forms...

Hashirama > Minato >= Tobirama >>> Danzō > Tsunade > Hiruzen


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## Ersa (Sep 21, 2013)

1. SM Hashirama
2. BM Minato
3. Minato
4. Tobirama
5. Tsunade / Old Man Hiruzen

The gap between 4 and 5 is absolutely massive. 1 & 2 are very close, I'd give Minato a chance of victory under the right conditions.


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## itachi sennin (Sep 21, 2013)

None of the other kages cannot even be compared to SM Hashirama.(If not counting KCM Minato.)


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## FlashYoruichi (Sep 21, 2013)

1. Hashirama.
2. Tobirama.
3. Minato.
4. Tsunade.
5. Hiruzen.


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## Rain (Sep 21, 2013)

1. Hashirama


2. Tobirama/ BM (edo) Minato/ Prime Sarutobi

4. Tsunade


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 21, 2013)

Hashirama has always received hype as being the man who made Konoha, even back during part I. Sarutobi's hype was obviously retconned, but I don't recall it ever being explicitly stated that Hashirama and Tobirama were at full power when they were revived against him. Based on portrayal, and by feats (recently taking on Madara's perfect Susano'o without sage mode and easily dodging the God Tree while others like Naruto were ensnared), he's by far the strongest of the Hokage.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 21, 2013)

Prime Hiruzen*<=>*Hashirama*=>*Tobirama*>>*Minato*<=>*Tsunade


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 21, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Prime Hiruzen*<=>*Hashirama*=>*Tobirama*>>*Minato*<=>*Tsunade



Prime Hiruzen has no feats, and nothing apart from retconned hype puts him on the same level as Hashirama, who is basically like a semi-God figure in the Narutoverse at the moment.


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## Ghost (Sep 21, 2013)

Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
Tsunade
Hiruzen

Hiruzen is most likely getting new feats soon.


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## katanalauncher (Sep 21, 2013)

Hiruzen's part 1 feat still puts him wayyyy above Tsunade.
Unless you don't actually think edo hokages are kage level, which is hilarious both by logic stand point and is already contradicted by canon.


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## Ghost (Sep 21, 2013)

katanalauncher said:


> Hiruzen's part 1 feat still puts him wayyyy above Tsunade.
> Unless you don't actually think edo hokages are kage level, which is hilarious both by logic stand point and is already contradicted by canon.



lel. Tsunade's feats take a massive shit on Hiruzen's atm.


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## Van Konzen (Sep 21, 2013)

just because Hiruzen was portrayed as old and lacks feats compared than others,
is not a conclusion that he should be put at the bottom..
it is already been stated by Enma how Old Hiruzen sucks in his
senile state..

its plain bullshit ranking Hiruzen at the bottom whereas his counterparts
are being portrayed at their prime..


In estimate, he should be at par or greater than Tobirama.. 
He wont be appointed as such young age if he wasnt
that capable defending the village.. 
Tobirama sacrificed himself knowing and believeing
that Hiruzen is there..


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## katanalauncher (Sep 21, 2013)

saikyou said:


> lel. Tsunade's feats take a massive shit on Hiruzen's atm.



Sorry, I forgot all the fights Tsunade won, or even came out unscratched.


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## Coppur (Sep 21, 2013)

Obviously the strongest Hokage is Hashirama, I don't buy that "Prime Hiruzen" argument, but if it is a list here is mine:
Hashirama>Minato (living)> Tobirama>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tsunade=Feats Hiruzen.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 21, 2013)

katanalauncher said:


> Sorry, I forgot all the fights Tsunade won, or even came out unscratched.



I could say the same about Hiruzen.


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## Intus Legere (Sep 21, 2013)

How is that even a question? I thought the manga was pretty clear that Hashirama was the strongest.

Then, I'd say, Minato. Then Tobirama. Then Tsunade. And finally, Hiruzen, the God of Shurikens.


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## katanalauncher (Sep 21, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I could say the same about Hiruzen.



Because he was in a total of one fight?
Where he held off Oro and two hokages?
While Tsunade gets overwhelmed by a jounin in part one?
Can't do shit against deva in part 2?
The only times she is even competent is when there are other covering her in a fight, her fighting style is too predictable to fight any strong kage level opponents other than pure one dimensional fighters.

Just try imagining how many seconds she could last against two edo hokages, hell even against Orochimaru who was weaker than either of the edo hokage.


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## Pein (Sep 21, 2013)

Minato if he gets Kurama. If not it goes for me based on feats Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato, Tsunade, Hiruzen.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 21, 2013)

katanalauncher said:


> Because he was in a total of one fight?



Well he hasn't gotten any younger since then, so. . .



> Where he held off Oro and two hokages?



You mean the fight where Orochimaru popped two massively gimped Kages and _started chillaxing in the back for most of the fight_ while they _toyed with_ Hiruzen?

You mean where Hiruzen gave up his life to take away a handseals from the guy who can use 90% of his jutsu _without_ handseals in the first place?



> While Tsunade gets overwhelmed by a jounin in part one?



-__________________________-

_Tsunade overwhelmed Kabuto_.

Kabuto already admitted his own inferiority when he ran away from an already extremely rusty and hemophobic Tsunade until she was out of breath before popping ninja steroids. In spite of his advantages to her disadvantages he was still forced to resort to her phobia to get anywhere against a woman who was trying to save her chakra for Orochimaru because she was still too much for him to handle otherwise.

Tsunade is no longer twenty years rusty, nor twenty years out of shape, and she's not hemophobic either. In other words, that jonin is an _ant_ compared to her. She would steamroll him in base.



> Can't do shit against deva in part 2?



Oh yes, because Hiruzen could do _anything_ against a village demolishing attack other than die and let thousands more die alongside him.

On the other hand, when Deva shut down all of his paths to heighten his _Shinra Tensei_ past a point that shortened his life and put himself in cool-down before Sage Naruto, the villagers survived anyway because of Tsunade.



> The only times she is even competent is when there are other covering her in a fight, her fighting style is too predictable to fight any strong kage level opponents other than pure one dimensional fighters.



Funny that someone so "predictable" has managed to surprise every single person she's fought on-panel. Last time I checked people don't get surprised by predictable things.

Is that lack of competence why she made Madara retract his remark about her weakness and fared better against her set of _Susano'o_ clones than her peers, or is that why she was the one to save all of their asses after Madara went on a rampage, despite Madara promising to kill her first?

Okay then; please list the Kages that can defeat Tsunade which Hiruzen stands any sort of chance against. . .I'll wait.



> Just try imagining how many seconds she could last against two edo hokages, hell even against Orochimaru who was weaker than either of the edo hokage.



She is clearly on Orochimaru's level, which is why she could become Hokage when the village was seeking out a strong leader who could stand up to Orochimaru to fill the position (don't bring me this crappy "Jiraiya was there" excuse because for starters he very rarely was while almost nobody even knew about it when he actually was present, and he went on a 2.5 year leave as soon as she came into office), and he absolutely is not weaker than either of those Part 1 Edo Hokage.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 21, 2013)

katanalauncher said:


> Because he was in a total of one fight?
> Where he held off Oro and two hokages?
> While Tsunade gets overwhelmed by a jounin in part one?
> Can't do shit against deva in part 2?
> ...



I can say with a great degree of certainty that fighting five Madara clones all using Susano'o is substantially harder than facing off against a very passive Orochimaru and two Hokages who were obviously significantly weaker than their living/current counterparts.


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## Van Konzen (Sep 21, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I can say with a great degree of certainty that fighting five Madara clones all using Susano'o is substantially harder than facing off against a very passive Orochimaru and two Hokages who were obviously significantly weaker than their living/current counterparts.



and assuming Kishi has the same thought about his power scaling on that Oro-Hiruzen fight
with the recent power ups.. great certainty indeed..


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 21, 2013)

lol At Hiruzen. I don't understand why people still think he can be anywhere near the level of Hashirama. That was stated at the beginning of part 1. It's clear Kishimoto no longer sees him as a "God of Shinobi". Hell, Tsunade, who is a weaker Kage in general, still beats Hiruzen. 


And don't give me that "we haven't seen him in his Prime" bullshit. Edo Tensei is even better than being in your prime, and all he's done so far is save Naruto, albeit like a badass, but he still didn't fight against either Jūbito or Madara. A God of Shinobi should actaully fight against that much of a threat, not just sitting there doing who knows what.


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## Zooted (Sep 21, 2013)

1. Hashirama
2. Minato
3. Tobirama
4. Hiruzen/Tsunade


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## katanalauncher (Sep 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Well he hasn't gotten any younger since then, so. . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The nerfed strongest shinobis of all time are still leagues ahead your average kage.(Tsunade)
Because it's not like Oro is trying to accomplish anything by defeating Hiruzen or that he have all the time he wants right?
Because a draw with three strong kage shinobis is a bad showing right?





> -__________________________-
> 
> _Tsunade overwhelmed Kabuto_.
> 
> ...


 Not saying current Tsuande can't rape part 1 kabuto, but it goes to show her actual abilities when she would have trouble against a jounin just from rusting. It was also unclear she didn't fight anyone, she just stop training and working as a shinobi. Judging from how eager she was to attack Oro, suggested that she had a few fights even while laying low.



> Oh yes, because Hiruzen could do _anything_ against a village demolishing attack other than die and let thousands more die alongside him.
> 
> On the other hand, when Deva shut down all of his paths to heighten his _Shinra Tensei_ past a point that shortened his life and put himself in cool-down before Sage Naruto, the villagers survived anyway because of Tsunade.


This is on her fighting abilities, I agree she did better protecting the village against pain than Hiruzen would have done.



> Funny that someone so "predictable" has managed to surprise every single person she's fought on-panel. Last time I checked people don't get surprised by predictable things.


Are you misinterpeting things on purpose to be cute?
Her fighting style is one dimensional and any high kages won't have trouble dodging her attack.
I don't give a shit if someone is impressed/surprised by her physical strength or healing ability, it does jack shit against character faster than her(there are a lot), and characters with sensing abilities and pre cog. 


> Is that lack of competence why she made Madara retract his remark about her weakness and fared better against her set of _Susano'o_ clones than her peers, or is that why she was the one to save all of their asses after Madara went on a rampage, despite Madara promising to kill her first?


Did you also miss the part where I say she is only competent with others covering her?
Would she have a chance to flank Madara, or not getting her head tore off on the get go if she's fighting by herself?


> Okay then; please list the Kages that can defeat Tsunade which Hiruzen stands any sort of chance against. . .I'll wait.


umm. Any kage that's stronger than Tsunade and weaker than Hiruzen? Which is a lot.




> She is clearly on Orochimaru's level, which is why she could become Hokage when the village was seeking out a strong leader who could stand up to Orochimaru to fill the position (don't bring me this crappy "Jiraiya was there" excuse because for starters he very rarely was while almost nobody even knew about it when he actually was present, and he went on a 2.5 year leave as soon as she came into office), and he absolutely is not weaker than either of those Part 1 Edo Hokage.


In terms of shinobi abilities, yes she definitely is on Oro's level due to her healing abilities.
But she sat on her ass for twenty years while Oro was out researching jutsus and obtaining younger bodies. In terms of a direct battle she doesn't stand a chance against her fellow sannin.
The elder's first choice was Jiraya, but they don't know Tsunade was alive. So we won't know who they would choose if both are present and consenting. It's not like the strongest kages are always better for the village anyway.
And yes, because Oro spent years researching the jutsu just to summon two hokage that's WEAKER than him, time well spent. If he summons someone like edo Jiraya, would he be genin level?


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## Mercurial (Sep 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> _Tsunade overwhelmed Kabuto_.
> 
> Kabuto already admitted his own inferiority when he ran away from an already extremely rusty and hemophobic Tsunade until she was out of breath before popping ninja steroids. In spite of his advantages to her disadvantages he was still forced to resort to her phobia to get anywhere against a woman who was trying to save her chakra for Orochimaru because she was still too much for him to handle otherwise.
> 
> ...



LOL at Kabuto running away... he was dodging, what now, dodging is now taken as "running away cowardly"? So I'd say Kakashi is a coward because he didn't let Sasuke's Susanoo's arrows hit him, Minato is a coward because he didn't let Raikage's punches hit him and so on.

Kabuto completely outperformed Tsunade in that fight, physically, and in smartness; also, Tsunade herself said he was even more skilled than she was in her prime.

If Madara actually would have wanted to kill her, with absolute killing intent as you claim, he would have dropped PS and meteors on her, and the other kages; instead, he chosed to play with them, and didn't even bother to give them the killing blow.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 21, 2013)

Kabuto and Tsunade weren't fighting on even grounds. The former tired Tsunade out by forcing her to chase after him into a far away location, then replenished his stamina with one of his stamina pills immediately after arriving. Even then, Tsunade managed to outmaneuver Kabuto and it took him exploiting her phobia of blood to 'win'. It's worth noting that Tsunade was rusty, and that her statement wasn't that Kabuto was more skilled than her in her prime, but rather his 'instincts' were sharper. It was a reference to how deep his chakra scalpels could cut, if I recall correctly. If he was more skilled than her, Tsunade wouldn't have been able to outmaneuver him like she did.

Either way, current Tsunade would completely destroy part I Kabuto, so this isn't really relevant.


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## Mercurial (Sep 21, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Kabuto and Tsunade weren't fighting on even grounds. *The former tired Tsunade out by forcing her to chase after him into a far away location, then replenished his stamina with one of his stamina pills immediately after arriving*. Even then, *Tsunade managed to outmaneuver Kabuto* and it took him exploiting her phobia of blood to 'win'. It's worth noting that Tsunade was rusty, and that her statement wasn't that Kabuto was more skilled than her in her prime, but rather his 'instincts' were sharper. It was a reference to how deep his chakra scalpels could cut, if I recall correctly. If he was more skilled than her, Tsunade wouldn't have been able to outmaneuver him like she did.
> 
> Either way, current Tsunade would completely destroy part I Kabuto, so this isn't really relevant.


Because she couldn't manage to hit him; if she would have been fast and skilled enough to hit him, she would have killed him, end of the question; but she wasn't, simply. And the bolded only makes evidence of the smartness of Kabuto, and the bad fighting technique of Tsunade.

You mean when Kabuto dodged Tsunade's attacks, blitzed her at going at her back and hit multiple times with Chakura no Mesu, saying clearly that he wasn't fighting to kill, otherwise he would have hit her differently? Kabuto wasn't even serious.

She says "strength" and in common manga language, when a character talks about strength, he talks about general power level. Or if you want to argue Tsunade was saying that Kabuto was physically stronger than her, which I don't really think...

Also you said Tsunade was rusty... well that was her problem, not anyone else's. Also I haven't ever seen Tsunade training, but at best doing office work as Hokage, if not drinking hiding it from Shizune. She increased her chakra, probably with some concentration exercises or medical tricks, but nothing else.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 21, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> Because she couldn't manage to hit him; if she would have been fast and skilled enough to hit him, she would have killed him, end of the question; but she wasn't, simply. And the bolded only makes evidence of the smartness of Kabuto, and the bad fighting technique of Tsunade.
> 
> You mean when Kabuto dodged Tsunade's attacks, blitzed her at going at her back and hit multiple times with Chakura no Mesu, saying clearly that he wasn't fighting to kill, otherwise he would have hit her differently? Kabuto wasn't even serious.
> 
> ...



Let me ask a simple question, then. Do you think Kabuto could have survived against five Madara clones all attacking with Susano'o?


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## Ƶero (Sep 21, 2013)

BM Minato> Hashirama > Minato (living) > Tobirama > Hiruzen >> Tsunade

Prime Hiruzen has no feats at all and at this point seems nothing more than empty hype but who knows Kishi might show something.


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## Mercurial (Sep 21, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Let me ask a simple question, then. Do you think Kabuto could have survived against five Madara clones all attacking with Susano'o?



He hasn't the willpower, the super strength and the Byakugou Tsunade has. But he is quicker, smarter, and with more finesse: he could have feinted with Shikon no jutsu and ran away with Doton. 

Naruto isn't DBZ, there aren't power levels in that way. There are some characters who can do some shit that character usually seen as stronger cannot reply. Tsunade can heal all Konoha, Madara can't, but can fodderize Tsunade. Choji can become a giant and lift tons like they're nothing, Kakashi can't (well he could use Sharingan to copy Baika no jutsu but for the sake of the argument don't think about it) but can fodderize Choji, and so on. 

My points still stand, as they're actual manga facts, nothing more nothing less.


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## Trojan (Sep 21, 2013)

BM Minato > Prime Hirunzen > SM Hashirama > Base Minato > Tobirama > Tsunade. 

I might put base Minato above Hashirama, depending own his long named jutsu
because he thought it can defeat obito, in his last form (which is stronger than Hashi)
but, I will wait and see what his jutsu does and how strong it going to be.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 21, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> He hasn't the willpower, the super strength and the Byakugou Tsunade has. But he is quicker, smarter, and with more finesse: he could have feinted with Shikon no jutsu and ran away with Doton.
> 
> Naruto isn't DBZ, there aren't power levels in that way. There are some characters who can do some shit that character usually seen as stronger cannot reply. Tsunade can heal all Konoha, Madara can't, but can fodderize Tsunade. Choji can become a giant and lift tons like they're nothing, Kakashi can't (well he could use Sharingan to copy Baika no jutsu but for the sake of the argument don't think about it) but can fodderize Choji, and so on.
> 
> My points still stand, as they're actual manga facts, nothing more nothing less.



I agree that Kabuto is smarter and has more finesse, and I'd even be inclined to agree with you that skill is more important in Naruto than raw strength if the current manga wasn't headed in that direction. This may have been the case in the past, but it's quite clear at the moment who is superior to who. The only debatable cases exist for those characters at the top.

We're debating who the strongest Hokage is, so obviously we're going to have to base this on general power levels and combat strength. Kabuto might be more skilled than Tsunade, and characters may have different skills to one another etc. but that's not really relevant here.


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## ueharakk (Sep 21, 2013)

All I know is that if they are alive:

1) Hashirama

2/3) Minato/ Prime Hiruzen

4) Tobirama
5) Tsunade

Featwise as edos?

1/2) Minato/Hashirama
3) Tobirama
4) Hiruzen
5) Tsunade


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## FlamingRain (Sep 21, 2013)

katanalauncher said:


> The nerfed strongest shinobis of all time are still leagues ahead your average kage.(Tsunade)



Those part 1 Edos are not ahead of any Kage, period. Part 1 Hashirama's feats are surpassed by freaking Yamato's and everyone and their grandmother can replicate what Part 1 Tobirama did with ease, and on a much larger scale at that.

Orochimaru _did_ have all the time he wanted because of the barrier which meant nobody was interfering at all. That is exactly why he could afford to be so casual.

And Hiruzen losing his life to take Orochimaru's arms is not a draw, it is Orochimaru's victory. You may as well say Jiraiya drew with Pein because he took out Animal.



> Not saying current Tsuande can't rape part 1 kabuto, but it goes to show her actual abilities when she would have trouble against a jounin just from rusting.



Tsunade's power has suffered twenty years worth of diminished speed, strength, endurance, martial arts skill, etc. and she was unable to call upon the slugs she is famous for (summoning requires blood and Orochimaru just biting his finger produced enough of it to frighten her). While exhausted, she fought with an amped up Jonin said to be around Kakashi's strength and would have won had it not been for her phobia. Keep in mind that Kabuto attributed this power to her status as one of the Sannin, and he is intelligent and knowledgeable enough to know what that status means given his close association with Orochimaru; this same Kabuto wanted to fight Jiraiya as well.

It only goes to show a _good reflection_ of Tsunade's abilities. And I'm not sure how it is at all unclear that Tsunade hadn't fought in twenty years either, seeing as that would be the entire point of retirement and self-imposed exile. Her being eager to attack Orochimaru doesn't suggest she had a few fights while laying low and I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. Anybody would have attacked Orochimaru if he was sitting there insulting the memory of their loved ones before threatening them.



> This is on her fighting abilities, I agree she did better protecting the village against pain than Hiruzen would have done.



Considering that she was able to cushion the impact of his second strongest attack without knowledge on it and going by transitive extension of Jiraiya's performance (which Tobi attributed to being one of the Legendary Three, not to being the Toad Sage in particular), I'm certain Tsunade would have given Pein a harder time than Hiruzen ever would have if she actually fought him.



> Her fighting style is one dimensional and any high kages won't have trouble dodging her attack.
> I don't give a shit if someone is impressed/surprised by her physical strength or healing ability, it does jack shit against character faster than her(there are a lot), and characters with sensing abilities and pre cog.



We are just going to have to disagree here for the moment, because I'm not sure how to contend with this without going into several different case-by-case analyses and those may as well be their own threads that would no longer have anything to do with Hiruzen.



> Did you also miss the part where I say she is only competent with others covering her?
> Would she have a chance to flank Madara, or not getting her head tore off on the get go if she's fighting by herself?



Tsunade doesn't have to be capable of defeating Madara on her own, Madz didn't retract his statement because she's only worth something while she's being covered for, that wouldn't even make any sense. It isn't as though anyone was covering for her against the _Susano'o_ clones either.



> umm. Any kage that's stronger than Tsunade and weaker than Hiruzen? Which is a lot.



I'm still waiting on that list because I think virtually every Kage has it in them to defeat Hiruzen by feats and it doesn't help that all of his hype is used in the past tense.

Yagura is like the only exception because he has all of one feat, and that can be attributed to being manipulated by Tobi.



> In terms of shinobi abilities, yes she definitely is on Oro's level due to her healing abilities.
> But she sat on her ass for twenty years while Oro was out researching jutsus and obtaining younger bodies.



Orochimaru spent several years developing his _Juinjutsu_ and later _Fushi Tensei_.

Neither of those things put him _above_ Tsunade.

II maintain that Tsunade is right there with her  Sannin contemporaries in terms of direct combat as well. I don't believe her medical prowess is compensation for a strength gap but her standing right there with her former teammates in one field or the other with jutsu that are multi-purpose, not because we have to add up her fields for her to be comparable.

But instead of retyping why I think that I'm just going to quote an excerpt of another post of mine.


*Spoiler*: __ 





FlamingRain said:


> I strongly disagree, and that's with me being a bigger Jiraiya fan than a Tsunade fan.
> 
> She has never been portrayed as the weakest, and to be quite honest you don't even base the abilities of characters on a traditional power-deadlock in even the loosest sense unless they're relative equals.
> 
> ...








> And yes, because Oro spent years researching the jutsu just to summon two hokage that's WEAKER than him, time well spent.



It isn't like he spent all of those years on _Edo Tensei_ alone, for one. If anything that was the least of his concerns seeing as he was much more interested in obtaining an Uchiha body.

Two, Tobirama already made it clear that the Hokage weren't even near their true potential the last time they were summoned by Orochimaru. Considering that Orochimaru's improvement of the jutsu is the result of watching someone who simply spent more time overlooking _Orochimaru's_ things (Kabuto), I can say it is very likely that Orochimaru was still trying to work out the bugs in the jutsu. 

He used it against Hiruzen _for the purpose of tormenting him_, not because he needed back up stronger than or even as strong as he was. That much should have been obvious when Hiruzen acknowledged that nobody presently in Konoha could defeat Orochimaru _before_ he learned that Orochimaru had discovered _Edo Tensei_.


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## Van Konzen (Sep 21, 2013)

This kid was already Tobirama level..




how much more if this God of Shinobi was shown..


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## katanalauncher (Sep 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Those part 1 Edos are not ahead of any Kage, period. Part 1 Hashirama's feats are surpassed by freaking Yamato's and everyone and their grandmother can replicate what Part 1 Tobirama did with ease, and on a much larger scale at that.


 Even if he is weakened, he is still the greatest shinobi of all time.
The notion of Hashirama being weaker than freaking Yamato is way too hilariously absurd to even conceive.
Because that shit looks bigger must mean it's stronger right?
Genin Temari leveled an entire forest, which puts her above Zabuza amirite?


> Orochimaru _did_ have all the time he wanted because of the barrier which meant nobody was interfering at all. That is exactly why he could afford to be so casual.


Yes, not like there is a plan in motion right? Or konoha could eventually break the barrier? or sound four can't maintain that barrier forever right?


> And Hiruzen losing his life to take Orochimaru's arms is not a draw, it is Orochimaru's victory. You may as well say Jiraiya drew with Pein because he took out Animal.


So Hiruzen stopped Orochimaru's plan to the point orochimaru admits failure is a win in your book?
Reading comprehension bro, work that that shit



> Tsunade's power has suffered twenty years worth of diminished speed, strength, endurance, martial arts skill, etc. and she was unable to call upon the slugs she is famous for (summoning requires blood and Orochimaru just biting his finger produced enough of it to frighten her). While exhausted, she fought with an amped up Jonin said to be around Kakashi's strength and would have won had it not been for her phobia. Keep in mind that Kabuto attributed this power to her status as one of the Sannin, and he is intelligent and knowledgeable enough to know what that status means given his close association with Orochimaru; this same Kabuto wanted to fight Jiraiya as well.
> 
> It only goes to show a _good reflection_ of Tsunade's abilities. And I'm not sure how it is at all unclear that Tsunade hadn't fought in twenty years either, seeing as that would be the entire point of retirement and self-imposed exile. Her being eager to attack Orochimaru doesn't suggest she had a few fights while laying low and I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. Anybody would have attacked Orochimaru if he was sitting there insulting the memory of their loved ones before threatening them.


her not training and doing missions != she never fought any or used abilities in that period.
Again, she was very eager to hit orochimaru when they reunited, which make it unlikely that she didn't use her power during that 20year period. If you go by filler then her certainly have, if you go by canon that's just extremely likely.
A kage level having trouble with jounin is deinitely not a good showing whatsoever, try to put other kage level character in her shoes and see how many of them can't defeat Kabuto






> Considering that she was able to cushion the impact of his second strongest attack without knowledge on it and going by transitive extension of Jiraiya's performance (which Tobi attributed to being one of the Legendary Three, not to being the Toad Sage in particular), I'm certain Tsunade would have given Pein a harder time than Hiruzen ever would have if she actually fought him.


lol no. While pain can be a lot to deal with for old Hiruzen, hiruzen is still one of if not the most knowledgeable and intelligent shinobi in the series, he definitely would've figured out pain's abilities faster than Jiraya. Not saying old Hiruzen would defeat pain, but he is more fitted to fight pain than Tsunade even without accounting him being stronger



> Tsunade doesn't have to be capable of defeating Madara on her own, Madz didn't retract his statement because she's only worth something while she's being covered for, that wouldn't even make any sense. It isn't as though anyone was covering for her against the _Susano'o_ clones either.


Why not, it's not like she have several kages on her side, who would help her if she gets incapacitated and also serves to divide Madara's attention.
If madara can focus on Tsunade by herself, then she won't even have the chance to hit Madara's susanno before she gets decapitated. 



> I'm still waiting on that list because I think virtually every Kage has it in them to defeat Hiruzen by feats and it doesn't help that all of his hype is used in the past tense.
> 
> Yagura is like the only exception because he has all of one feat, and that can be attributed to being manipulated by Tobi.


Show me the list of every kage that could fight two edo legendary shinobi



> II maintain that Tsunade is right there with her  Sannin contemporaries in terms of direct combat as well. I don't believe her medical prowess is compensation for a strength gap but her standing right there with her former teammates in one field or the other with jutsu that are multi-purpose, not because we have to add up her fields for her to be comparable.
> 
> But instead of retyping why I think that I'm just going to quote an excerpt of another post of mine.


She could be twenty years ago, but the other two sannin have since be improved and Tsunade even now should be weaker than her prime.




> It isn't like he spent all of those years on _Edo Tensei_ alone, for one. If anything that was the least of his concerns seeing as he was much more interested in obtaining an Uchiha body.
> 
> Two, Tobirama already made it clear that the Hokage weren't even near their true potential the last time they were summoned by Orochimaru. Considering that Orochimaru's improvement of the jutsu is the result of watching someone who simply spent more time overlooking _Orochimaru's_ things (Kabuto), I can say it is very likely that Orochimaru was still trying to work out the bugs in the jutsu.


Did I even say they were as strong in their prime, hell even current Edo hokages are weaker than in their prime without concerning unlimited chakra.


> He used it against Hiruzen _for the purpose of tormenting him_, not because he needed back up stronger than or even as strong as he was. That much should have been obvious when Hiruzen acknowledged that nobody presently in Konoha could defeat Orochimaru _before_ he learned that Orochimaru had discovered _Edo Tensei_.


Show me where he admits that summoning the hokage are PURELY for tormening Hiruzen.
Orochimaru knows and respect Hiruzen's power, you think he would waste that much effort in battle against a hokage with a useless jutsu just to spite him?
It's not like there are better way of tormening him like destroying konaha infront of his eyes, or kills his son etc.
Even if he want to use edo tensei, Hiruzen's got a dead wife you know, that would have way more impact than the hokages. Since you claim the edos are weaker than Orochimaru then it wouldn't matter who he choose to revive right?

  Hiruzen said nobody could defeat him is because he know Orochimaru is researching kinjutsu for twenty years which is exactly what edo tensei is. And with edo tensei, Orochimaru is indeed stronger than old Hiruzen.


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## Bonly (Sep 21, 2013)

The portrayal in the manga has made it quite clear that Hashi is the strongest Hokage.

Minato would be the second strongest, Tobi the third strongest, Tsunade the second weakest, and Hiruzen being the Hokage.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 21, 2013)

katanalauncher said:


> Because that shit looks bigger must mean it's stronger right?



When _the same jutsus_ are bigger hell yes it means they're stronger.



> Yes, not like there is a plan in motion right? Or konoha could eventually break the barrier? or sound four can't maintain that barrier forever right?



Orochimaru taking his time with Hiruzen doesn't mess up the plan to destroy Konoha, only the failure of the Sound and Sand could mess that up (which happened, but not because of Orochimaru).

Konoha's Anbu tried and failed to break the barrier already and Orochimaru stated that its purpose was to ensure that they didn't just get in Hiruzen's way like the fodder they were, so he clearly wasn't worried about them. Meanwhile, the Sound Four had not tired at all even whilst remaining in base, there is no reason to believe the barrier is taxing to maintain.



> So Hiruzen stopped Orochimaru's plan to the point orochimaru admits failure is a win in your book?



Yes it is, because Orochimaru forced Hiruzen to sacrifice his life without losing his own.

Orochimaru's overall plan for the village in its entirety isn't synonymous with his bout against Hiruzen.



> her not training and doing missions != she never fought any or used abilities in that period.
> Again, she was very eager to hit orochimaru when they reunited, which make it unlikely that she didn't use her power during that 20year period.



Alright I know this isn't serious anymore, because you'd have to be a special kind of stupid to really believe Kishimoto would emphasize Tsunade being so rusty only for her to have in actuality been fighting every now and then.

And why do you keep saying she was eager to hit Orochimaru when they reunited? Seriously, what are you trying to say this means?

That doesn't hint that Tsunade considered herself in decent condition so much as it illustrates that the woman is a loose-cannon.



> A kage level having trouble with jounin is deinitely not a good showing whatsoever, try to put other kage level character in her shoes and see how many of them can't defeat Kabuto



It is if you have the mental capacity to _put things into perspective_ as you are intended to. You cannot give Tsunade criticism for this without also giving it to Jiraiya and Orochimaru, who have been made out to be stronger than Hiruzen already, so what are you really doing here?

Give any Kage level severe hemophobia and the list is huge, btw.



> While pain can be a lot to deal with for old Hiruzen, hiruzen is still one of if not the most knowledgeable and intelligent shinobi in the series, he definitely would've figured out pain's abilities faster than Jiraya. Not saying old Hiruzen would defeat pain, but he is more fitted to fight pain than Tsunade even without accounting him being stronger



Hiruzen isn't going to figure out what each path does any faster than his students unless he has future sight considering that Jiraiya only needed to see those abilities once before coming up with way stop counter them, and when Tsunade obtained information on Deva she immediately came up with a counter to it as well.

In addition to that, _Hiruzen has no idea Nagato and Yahiko even existed_, Tsunade at least recognized the latter from their brief meeting.



> Why not, it's not like she have several kages on her side, who would help her if she gets incapacitated and also serves to divide Madara's attention.
> If madara can focus on Tsunade by herself, then she won't even have the chance to hit Madara's susanno before she gets decapitated.



Because common sense.

The entire point of Madara saying it was 5 against 1 was for us to assume that each Kage primarily occupied 5 _Susano'o_. Tsunade in particular has a perpetual regeneration jutsu and thus any attempts to help by any other Kage would simply be a waste of time and energy on their part given that she _can't_ be incapacitated by their attacks evidenced by her smacking them around even with swords as wide as her waist piercing her, and when one Kage helps another their own set of _Susano'o_ clones follows them and joins the other set as we saw with Gaara and Mei.

Tsunade's set was still by itself, though, and on top of that:

*1.)* Gaara and Mei absolutely could not have helped given their distance, the fact that the sand  of the desert had been blanketed by wood and rock and trapped underneath, and the fact that _Susano'o_ could smash _through_ Mei's jutsu and Gaara's was sent to its limit as soon as he spared just a bit for Mei.

*2.)* Ay had only just begun to concern himself with how much stamina Tsunade was using up, getting incapacitated himself the second he did.

*3.)* Ohnoki had only become free a second ago after weighing down his clones temporarily, and Madara made note of this development with the words _"at last"_, heavily implying that this is the very first time Ohnoki has done such a thing.

If they helped the regenerator their IQs would have to be lower than their shoe-sizes, so I doubt it and it's very reasonable to assume that whatever did happen off panel was status quo or it likely would have been specified otherwise. To think Tsunade was getting help from everybody considering the above is quite honestly hardly anything more than wishful thinking.

How do you even divide the attention of 25 different Madaras in the first place?



> Show me the list of every kage that could fight two edo legendary shinobi



_Oh no_, you answer my question first and stop running away from it because you realize anyone who can beat Tsunade would dominate Hiruzen.

Concession accepted otherwise.



> She could be twenty years ago, but the other two sannin have since be improved and Tsunade even now should be weaker than her prime.



Tsunade has gotten back in shape and has a massive chakra seal as well as regeneration jutsu that she had yet to develop back then, so Tsunade has improved as well.



> Show me where he admits that summoning the hokage are PURELY for tormening Hiruzen.



He shouldn't have to.



> Orochimaru knows and respect Hiruzen's power,



Which is why he laughed at it, am I right?



> you think he would waste that much effort in battle against a hokage with a useless jutsu just to spite him?



Definitely.



> It's not like there are better way of tormening him like destroying konaha infront of his eyes, or kills his son etc.



The barrier is see-through and Orochimaru's forces _were_ destroying Konoha, which may very well have caused Asuma's death, not that Hiruzen would see such a thing anyway given that Asuma was in a completely different section of the arena and then in a forest outside of the village.

Hiruzen also got over Asuma's death really fast when he learned about it last chapter.



> Since you claim the edos are weaker than Orochimaru then it wouldn't matter who he choose to revive right?



Right.

Except that when his wife died he went straight to "protect village" mode without any moment of reflection as was the case with the Senju Bros whom he grew up under.

And would Orochimaru even know she was dead? He had already left the village by that point.



> Hiruzen said nobody could defeat him is because he know Orochimaru is researching kinjutsu for twenty years which is exactly what edo tensei is. And with edo tensei, Orochimaru is indeed stronger than old Hiruzen.



So Hiruzen magically accurately guesstimated how far Orochimaru had advanced his Kinjutsu?

The fact of the matter is that he was still startled by _Edo Tensei_ and _Fushi Tensei_. It couldn't be more obvious that those additions _weren't_ included in Hiruzen's estimation of Orochimaru's power which placed it above his own.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 21, 2013)

1. BM Minato/ SM Shodai

2. Base Minato (would be above Shodai if he lived longer and not died at 21-22)

3. Tobirama

4. Hiruzen

5. Tsunade


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## Senjuclan (Sep 21, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> 1. BM Minato/ SM Shodai
> 
> 2. Base Minato (would be above Shodai if he lived longer and not died at 21-22)
> 
> ...



No more like

1. Shodai 
2. KCM Minato
3. Tobirama
4. Minato
5. Tsunade
6. Hiruzen


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 22, 2013)

Hiruzen wank is ridiculous. No one should have that much of a change in power just because of Old Age. If you truly buy him being so powerful, then what the hell was he doing while the other Hokages were fighting the biggest threat the Narutoverse has ever seen? Oh yeah that's right, sitting on his ass doing nothing. Doesn't sound like something a "God of Shinobi" would do.


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## Trojan (Sep 22, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Hiruzen wank is ridiculous. No one should have that much of a change in power just because of Old Age. If you truly buy him being so powerful, then what the hell was he doing while the other Hokages were fighting the biggest threat the Narutoverse has ever seen? Oh yeah that's right, sitting on his ass doing nothing. Doesn't sound like something a "God of Shinobi" would do.



that's no wank, it's reality, that what kishi said at least. 
as for sitting, well Hashirama was not all that useful either and he has the title!


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## Gin Ichimaru (Sep 22, 2013)

1. Hashirama
2. BM Minato (very close in power)
3. Minato/Tobirama (they both have the Hiraishin, Tobirama has Edo Tensei + Suiton mastery, while Minato has slightly better Hiraishin and toads). I'd say Tobirama could be on top depending on his Edo Tenseis
4. Hiruzen









5. Tsunade (unfortunately she's mainly a medic, not really combat oriented if we compare to the other kages)



EDIT: Actually, I'm curious why most people put Minato over Tobirama, they both have the Hiraishin, but Tobirama has Suiton + Edo Tensei + Senju, whereas Minato has the frogs.


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## trance (Sep 22, 2013)

Let's face it, Hiruzen is the weakest Hokage. His hype can no longer save him. The only possible way now is if Kishi decides to have Hiruzen do a major asspull against Godbito.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Sep 22, 2013)

My list personally going by their current power

1. Hashirama Senju
2. Minato Namikaze (Minato and Naruto both have been powering up quickly so we'll see)
3. Tobirama Senju
4. Hiruzen
5. Tsunade

My only complaint with this thread...

Are some of you seriously putting Tsunade above Hiruzen? That's just, uh well, Elia can I borrow your sig for a moment?

No just kidding I just strongly disagree with you those of you that said that.

Hiruzen doesn't have a lot of feats but really he actually has a good variety of elemental jutsu and he is one of the Hokages. I personally would say the feats he does have and Kishi's portrayal of him would be enough to put him above Tsunade.


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## Trojan (Sep 22, 2013)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> EDIT: Actually, I'm curious why most people put Minato over Tobirama, they both have the Hiraishin, but Tobirama has Suiton + Edo Tensei + Senju, whereas Minato has the frogs.



Even though I know I'll regret it, but ... 

1- Minato's s/t jutsus are better and faster than Tobirama's that's because
Hashi said they will go to the battlefield via FTG and we saw Minato arrived first via his kunai. 
of course Tobirama admitted that Minato is better than him, and the very fact that Minato arrived
first that means he's faster, and that supported by A's statement as well. 

*Blast radius of Kurama's bijuudama at VoTe.*
of course, Tobirama's fanboys disagree with that, and they try to make Hashi's statement when he asked Tobirama to use his FTG to shunshin as in the translation. However, Tobirama called Minato's FTG a shunshin once again
*Blast radius of Kurama's bijuudama at VoTe.*

yet, they try to say it can't be slower, but Tobirama disagree AGAIN with them
Link removed

as you can see the jutsu can be slower as tobirama himself said. Also, we know Minato can
teleport more than Tobirama can via sincce Minato with 2 arms can teleport more than 1 TBB
but Tobirama can teleport only 1
Link removed

that's in term of S/T jutsus in general Minato is greater than Tobirama. 

Now, they both have the finger sensing abilities, clones, and the red barrier. Thus, they are
even in these things. 

Tobirama does have water jutsus, but they are B-rank. Minato's Rasengan is stronger than
any water jutsus that Tobirama has shown so far. 

Minato has his frogs summons, Tobirama does not have summons so far. (other than the edos)
and you have to remember they do have a lot of strong jutsus and even SM!! 

Tobirama has edo, but it's weaker than Oro's edo in part one which was very bad in itself anyway. Minato has sealing jutsu which is the edo weakness, and he has the contract seal which is likely able to remove Tobirama's control. Along, side other sealing jutsus. Other point
is the fact that we don't even know who can be summoned by Tobirama. 

Now, that's being said Tobirama is better at sensing abilities than Minato, and he more likley
has better chakra, even though he did not show any feat for that. 

this in terms of their jutsus. In term of their feats 
1- Minato was able to fight both A & B at the same time, of course we did not see the battle, but
A thought that there is no man who can surpass Minato, and B was trembling from the mention
of Minato's name, I suppose that's give us an idea, no?  

On the other hand, Tobirama even with the Raikage was not able to defeat Kin & Gin in the
first time, and on the second times he had his 6 students with him, and they believed that they
can't win! 

it's worth to mention that A & B tag-team was said to be the strongest! and kin & gin were
defeated by Darui, and he could have killed them had they not been an edo. With that being said
when Kin used his Kurama's chakra the battle had changed. 

2- Minato was able to stop Obito in a really short time and then he dealt with FULL Kurama, of
course he died, but he was the one who chose to do so! 

3- Minato's feats (or hype?) of soloing the 3rd war! 

and in term of hype. LOL
you don't want me go there, do you? :rofl:rofl

that's why I do believe that base Minato is stronger than Tobirama, and there is still his long
named jutsu that he thinks that it can defeat obito, and the fact that he has element jutsus
that we don't even know about,,,etc   

I don't see them even close to be honest. 


> Elia can I borrow your sig for a moment?



It's all yours, man. lol


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 22, 2013)

Elia said:


> that's no wank, it's reality, that what kishi said at least.
> as for sitting, well Hashirama was not all that useful either and he has the title!


At least Hashirama wasn't off paneled was at least trying to deal with the threat.


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## Bonly (Sep 22, 2013)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> My only complaint with this thread...
> 
> Are some of you seriously putting Tsunade above Hiruzen? That's just, uh well, Elia can I borrow your sig for a moment?
> 
> ...



I'd have to disagree with you. In part one Sarutobi stated that he didn't believe any shinobi in Konoha had the strength to face and overcome Orochimaru in direct combat, including even himself so Kishi's portrayal shows that a member of the Sannin is too much Hiruzen. Now add in how Kishi portrayal suggest that all of the Sannin are equal hints to the same could easily apply to Tsunade and Jiraiya as well. If you bring in feats as well then Hiruzen has nothing to put down Tsunade nor does he have the stamina to outlast her either. Be it feats or portrayal or both, Tsunade and the rest of the Sannin are a step above Hiruzen.


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## Trojan (Sep 22, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> At least Hashirama wasn't off paneled was at least trying to deal with the threat.



he was for the most part actually, we barely saw anything from their battle, all what we saw
is them talking! 

Hiruzen also was trying to deal with obito and analysis his power, it's not his fault that obito
is stronger than both madara, and Hashirama! And the fact that he saved Naruto's life is
better than anything Hashi has done in this war so far! 

but honestly, I want to know why kishi made it too long for Hiruzen to return unlike Hashi & Tobi!
well, the old man returned finally, perhaps we will see a good feats from him from now on!


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 22, 2013)

Elia said:


> he was for the most part actually, we barely saw anything from their battle, all what we saw
> is them talking!
> 
> Hiruzen also was trying to deal with obito and analysis his power, it's not his fault that obito
> ...



Show me actual legitimate things Hiruzen has done to make him stronger than Hashirama, Minato, or Tobirama. Not just some retconned hype from part 1.


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## Trojan (Sep 22, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Show me actual legitimate things Hiruzen has done to make him stronger than Hashirama, Minato, or Tobirama. Not just some retconned hype from part 1.



by feats, he does not really have anything to put him above those 3 so far. 
and by hype actually Kishi still call them (and Hiruzen one of them) the strongest
edo, so I'm not sure what are you talking about


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 22, 2013)

Where did he say that?


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## Trojan (Sep 22, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Where did he say that?



RAW POWER DEPARTMENT this chapter
the 4 strongest zombi, he did not say the 3 strongest and Hiruzen GTFO!

RAW POWER DEPARTMENT this chapter
it was repeated here again

RAW POWER DEPARTMENT this chapter
the strongest soldiers 

So, we supposed to see them THAT powerful, INCLUDING HIRUZEN. 
so kishi still want us to see Hiruzen one of the strongest characters, but honestly he failed
so far to show that, maybe because he make him returned as an old man, and in top of that
he did not make them return at full power as tobirama said, so this Hiruzen is supposed to be
even weaker than the one who fought Oro in part 1!


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## Kai (Sep 22, 2013)

Hashirama is the right answer.



Elia said:


> I might put base Minato above Hashirama, depending own his long named jutsu






			
				Elia said:
			
		

> because he thought it can defeat obito, in his last form


He did not. He thought it would be good enough to provide an opening.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 22, 2013)

Elia said:


> that's no wank, it's reality, that what kishi said at least.
> as for sitting, well Hashirama was not all that useful either and he has the title!



Hashirama has been fighting and holding off Madara, while missing small chunks of his chakra due to having used moku-bunshin no jutsu (the loss in chakra was  something he already noted in this chapter). Among other things, he was also the first person who trapped the Juubi once he entered the field, while the other Hokages just reinforced it.

Sarutobi, on the other hand, approached Obito with the intention of finding out his technique's weakness... by using shuriken. This is fine and all, but the fact that he came to the already obvious conclusion of "wow this thing is really broken" and got vaporized straight afters it substantially less impressive.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 22, 2013)

Elia said:


> * the mountains in this scan?*
> the 4 strongest zombi, he did not say the 3 strongest and Hiruzen GTFO!
> 
> * the mountains in this scan?*
> ...



The four strongest zombies means the group of 4 is stronger than any other group of four. It does not say anything about the individual strength of the group members


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 22, 2013)

Naruto is the strongest Hokage.


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## Turrin (Sep 22, 2013)

It's hard to say at this point who the strongest Hokage is for sure. Hashirama appears to be the strongest given his feats against Madara and his recent hpye including the title "God of Shinobi". However Kishi keeps having Minato grow in strength exponentially with KCM and now even BM. In-fact BM Minato is hax enough where he could see him fighting on par with a-lot of Hashirama's Jutsu and it's really only  Buddha that seems to still be on another level from BM Minato. However if Kishi keeps giving Minato power ups, than this could quickly change. Heck all BM Minato really has to show imo is summoning Fusaku & Shima, and I'd be willing to believe he'd have a chance to beat Hashirama, considering how hax FTG + Frog Song is. And while i'm sure he can summona the two Toads, the reason i'd like to see him do so, is to figure out how IC it is for him to call on their aid.

As for Tobirama it's pretty clear that he is weaker than Hashirama based on his reaction to Hashirama's chakra. The only possible way I could see Tobirama being the strongest is if he could summon an Edo Tensei army similar to Kabuto's with Tandem Explosive Tags in them. But even if that's the case it would require a huge amount of prep-time and be difficult to pull off in-battle, so he'd probably only be capable of being situationally the strongest. With that said it's hard to know Tobirama's placement in comparison to Hiruzen, Tsunade, and Minato. Right now he seems weaker than Minato, but stronger than Tsunad/Hiruzen, however its too soon to really call anything for sure, after-all Hiruzen did get the chance to outperform him against the Tree, saving Naruto.

Hiruzen right now looks like the second strongest, but due to his insane hype I'd still rather see the guy fight, before making any judgements. 

Tsunade looks as if she's the weakest or at best second weakest above Old Hiruzen, but with her coming back to the battlefield to get more feats, it's also too soon to call her the weakest.

So yeah I think we should wait till each Hokage has a bit more panel time.


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## Hamaru (Sep 22, 2013)

Hashirama is clearly the strongest of all the Kages. Minato and Tobirama have been highly debated about who is the second strongest. Everyone else don't really matter.


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 22, 2013)

to me it's hard to say between Minato and Hashirama obviously Minato got BM to counter Hashirama's SM, their best abilities seem to counter each other but if I had to guess I would give Minato the slight edge, as he's been called the savior by both Jiriyia and Raikage, he also is the main protagonist father , and right now he's playing a more significant role being the one to officially break Naruto and Sasuke in as the leaders of the next generation, 

then you have Tsunade, Hiruzen, Tobirama

based upon hype Hiruzen is stronger than Tobirama, and Tsunade but Kishi hasn't given him enough feats in battle to justify said hype and another factor is when they were younger in their Prime Hiruzen states he was stronger than Tobirama at the time of his death and even in old age he was said to be the strongest of all the Kage, and considering how powerful Onoki is that's saying a lot if Kishi thinks Old Hiruzen >Onoki then how big is the gap in his Prime yrs, Danzo even after the transplants believed he was still below Hiruzen as a shinobi and Danzo was at least as strong as 6 Paths of Pain

I know people can't stand hype or statements but those are what we mostly use to gauge a characters strength, the thing hurting Hiruzen is he has very little plot importance so his feats will be hard to come by, in my opinion Kishi still believes Hiruzen to be 2/3 strongest 

obviously if we count combat feats Tobirama is 3/4 with Tsunade following behind, but she could possibly be even as high as 3rd if we counter her support abilities 

Minato>Hashirama>Hiruzen>Tobirama>Tsunade seems to be the most likely


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## Dominus (Sep 22, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> based upon hype Hiruzen is stronger than Tobirama, and Tsunade but Kishi hasn't given him enough feats in battle to justify said hype and another factor is when they were younger in their Prime Hiruzen states he was stronger than Tobirama at the time of his death



You mean when he was talking to Danzō and when he said that he's the best among them... he probably meant among Tobirama's students, Danzō said that Tobirama was the best shinobi in the village afterwards.


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## Trojan (Sep 22, 2013)

Kai said:


> Hashirama is the right answer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- What? 
I actually find a hard time to see Hashirama land a hand on even base Minato to be honest.
and you put this face to me "" as if your answer is correct, even though we have a canon
statement that he's not the strongest, so what makes your answer better than mine? 

you make Hashi the strongest and we all know that he is NOT, but I said" i might put Minato above hashi" and there is no statement whatsoever to put Hashi above minato in the first place. 

- he did not you say? oh please can you type the words in the last panel?
and make sure to make the 7th (9th?) word in bold
* the mountains in this scan?*

so, you even dont know what the jutsu is, thus, I don't even know why did you disagreed! 



Atlantic Storm said:


> Hashirama has been fighting and holding off Madara, while missing small chunks of his chakra due to having used moku-bunshin no jutsu (the loss in chakra was  something he already noted in this chapter). Among other things, he was also the first person who trapped the Juubi once he entered the field, while the other Hokages just reinforced it.
> 
> Sarutobi, on the other hand, approached Obito with the intention of finding out his technique's weakness... by using shuriken. This is fine and all, but the fact that he came to the already obvious conclusion of "wow this thing is really broken" and got vaporized straight afters it substantially less impressive.



- his chakra should be full by now because he's an edo, also madara was not doing all that
much anyway, and it seems to me madara is the one who hold hashi off to steal more of his
cells!

- Well, he knew it has a time limit at least and about the 4 elements. Also, I'm not saying 
Hiruzen did all that much, but he's no different from Hashi IMO, they are the less useful
Minato & Tobirama are more useful that them and they did MUCH better as well. 



Senjuclan said:


> The four strongest zombies means the group of 4 is stronger than any other group of four. It does not say anything about the individual strength of the group members



I did not understand that as "the group of 4" honestly, but who knows, it could be.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 22, 2013)

Kishi removed Father Minato's arm for a reason y'know.

He would have out shinned every friend on the battlefield and panelled mindless Obito.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 22, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> He would have out shinned every friend on the battlefield and panelled mindless Obito.



Then why didn't he? He didn't lose his arm until after Obito regained his consciousness.


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## Trojan (Sep 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> In-fact BM Minato is hax enough where he could see him fighting on par with a-lot of Hashirama's Jutsu and it's really only  Buddha that seems to still be on another level from BM Minato..



I don't see the Buddha as a problem honestly, Minato can teleport it away just like how he
teleported the Juubi's TBB. the only jutsu that Hashi has I consider it as a problem is his
flower world. Because Minatoo does not have the firepower to destroy it (in base) and it has
the ability to make him sleep! 

Other than this jutsu I really don't see any of Hashi's jutsus can do much against Minato. However,
a bonus point for Hashi, is his chakra being a lot more larger than Minato's.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 22, 2013)

Elia said:


> I did not understand that as "the group of 4" honestly, but who knows, it could be.



It is the correct way to read the text. Hashirama is vastly superior to the other hokages, so the text is referring to the group. Even Suigetsu, the one who said it singled out Hashirama as the one he was most in awe of. 

This is like saying OECD countries have the largest GDP on earth. It does not say that Spain is comparable to the USA



Eliyua23 said:


> to me it's hard to say between Minato and Hashirama obviously Minato got BM to counter Hashirama's SM, their best abilities seem to counter each other but if I had to guess I would give Minato the slight edge, as he's been called the savior by both Jiriyia and Raikage



Raikage only said what Jiraiya told him. Jiraiya said what he thought but obviously he was wrong since Naruto and Nagato are the saviors. Being called a savior when you are not is less than being called a god and a fairy tale like RS



Eliyua23 said:


> he also is the main protagonist father , and right now he's playing a more significant role being the one to officially break Naruto and Sasuke in as the leaders of the next generation,



What has Minato done to officially break Naruto and Sasuke as leaders?

How is his role more significant than Hashirama being the key to everything. To become rikudou, you need Hashirama. To defeat Obito, Madara needs Hashirama. Minato could disappear and nothing would change 



Eliyua23 said:


> then you have Tsunade, Hiruzen, Tobirama
> 
> based upon hype Hiruzen is stronger than Tobirama, and Tsunade but Kishi hasn't given him enough feats in battle to justify said hype and another factor is when they were younger in their Prime Hiruzen states he was stronger than Tobirama at the time of his death and even in old age he was said to be the strongest of all the Kage, and considering how powerful Onoki is that's saying a lot if Kishi thinks Old Hiruzen >Onoki then how big is the gap in his Prime yrs, Danzo even after the transplants believed he was still below Hiruzen as a shinobi and Danzo was at least as strong as 6 Paths of Pain



Hiruzen was speaking to Danzou not Tobirama. TaKL commented on this at great length. The way he talks to Tobirama is very different from how he speaks to the others (much more deferential in Japanese). Plus, Danzou said there was no one superior to Tobirama in the village



Eliyua23 said:


> I know people can't stand hype or statements but those are what we mostly use to gauge a characters strength, the thing hurting Hiruzen is he has very little plot importance so his feats will be hard to come by, in my opinion Kishi still believes Hiruzen to be 2/3 strongest
> 
> obviously if we count combat feats Tobirama is 3/4 with Tsunade following behind, but she could possibly be even as high as 3rd if we counter her support abilities
> 
> Minato>Hashirama>Hiruzen>Tobirama>Tsunade seems to be the most likely



Hiruzen's strength has been retconned totally. Kishi has no excuse not to back up his hype now that he is back. He does not because he does not care for the readers to hold unto those statements.

Tsunade can't even start to compare with Tobirama and frankly she is stronger than Hiruzen. The correct ranking is Hashirama is stronger than KCM Minato who is stronger than Tobirama who is stronger than regular Minato who is stronger than Tsunade who is stronger than Hiruzen


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## Trojan (Sep 22, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> It is the correct way to read the text. Hashirama is vastly superior to the other hokages, so the text is referring to the group. Even Suigetsu, the one who said it singled out Hashirama as the one he was most in awe of.
> 
> This is like saying OECD countries have the largest GDP on earth. It does not say that Spain is comparable to the USA



you do know that I agree with the manga, and disagree with the fanboys, and thus I don't
see Hashirama as superior since there is among them who's stronger than him. Regardless
if the fanboys like it or not. 

Suigetsu was in awe of Tobirama if I remember correctly. @.@

but/ oh well, I will take it as you said because I have a difficultly to think that's everyone of them
is stronger than the other edo, mostly because of tobirama being one of them though.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 22, 2013)

Elia said:


> you do know that I agree with the manga, and disagree with the fanboys, and thus I don't
> see Hashirama as superior since there is among them who's stronger than him. Regardless
> if the fanboys like it or not.
> 
> ...



1. You will notice that my post referred to either the manga or logic while yours is all straw man arguments. It is typical fanboy behavior 
2. There is no one stronger than Hashirama, only Obito and even then Hashirama's power is necessary to defeat his ass
3. Read the manga and you will find out what suigetsu said about Hashirama. I suggest you avail yourself of reading the manga some time


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## Rai (Sep 22, 2013)

Senju Hashirama


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 22, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> It is the correct way to read the text. Hashirama is vastly superior to the other hokages, so the text is referring to the group. Even Suigetsu, the one who said it singled out Hashirama as the one he was most in awe
> 
> This is like saying OECD countries have the largest GDP on earth. It does not say that Spain is comparable to the USA
> 
> ...






1. Raikage and Jiriyia know full well the power of Hashirama yet they believe it was possible Minato would be the guy who is the child of destiny , Jiriyia knows everything there is to know about Hashirama yet he believed it would be Minato who could change the course of history, Jiriyia has also said he believed Minato to be the most gifted shinobi ever , and this is coming from a guy who probably has the most knowledge on konoha ninja .


2. He's been somewhat of a care taker, he's participating in the battle against the strongest entity other than Rikudo Sennin, he's playing a part in the main even right now Hashi vs Madi is the mid-card, he doesn't need Hashirama he needs Sage Mode or do you think SM Naruto>Minato as well, needing a specific power from said shinobi doesn't make him more important to the overall scheme of things , we also know Minato is going to give Naruto the other half of Kurama so he's still pretty important to the overall scheme of things at worst they are both equal, Minato to Naruto and Hashirama to Madara.

3. I haven't seen the discussion on that subject so I can only go with the manga and Hiruzen states he's the strongest of the bunch and Tobirama doesn't refute that statement .

4. Until further statements have been made by kishimoto Hiruzen's hype still stands all he lacks is feats and panel time, but then you have shinobi like Mito, Kushina , Shisui but from their hype we can concur they are very powerul shinobi, Kishi has to tell a story first before satisfying NF's tier list, hiruzen will shine when it makes sense for the story but until further notice he's still in the running for at least being stronger than Tobirama.

5. Based upon support abilities it's possible that with that added to the mix she could possibly be the 3rd strongest, she saved the Gokage from certain death, she survived being sliced in 2 , even Orochimaru says Tsunade is impossible to kill, Katsuya alone makes her hax as shit in support


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## Kai (Sep 22, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> 1. Raikage and Jiriyia know full well the power of Hashirama yet they believe it was possible Minato would be the guy who is the child of destiny , Jiriyia knows everything there is to know about Hashirama yet he believed it would be Minato who could change the course of history, Jiriyia has also said he believed Minato to be the most gifted shinobi ever , and this is coming from a guy who probably has the most knowledge on konoha ninja .


You do realize the "Child of Prophecy" is, by default, one of Jiraiya's students as foretold by the Elder Toad?

Let's not stick to heavily selective reading.


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 22, 2013)

Kai said:


> You do realize the "Child of Prophecy" is, by default, one of Jiraiya's students as foretold by the Elder Toad?
> 
> Let's not stick to heavily selective reading.



in order for Jiriyia to think its possible Minato had to be extraordinarily powerful , he knows a all konoha shinobi yet he thought Minato to be the greatest


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## Xeros (Sep 22, 2013)

Future Hokage Naruto is the strongest


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## Senjuclan (Sep 22, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> 1. Raikage and Jiriyia know full well the power of Hashirama yet they believe it was possible Minato would be the guy who is the child of destiny , Jiriyia knows everything there is to know about Hashirama yet he believed it would be Minato who could change the course of history, Jiriyia has also said he believed Minato to be the most gifted shinobi ever , and this is coming from a guy who probably has the most knowledge on konoha ninja .
> 
> 
> 2. He's been somewhat of a care taker, he's participating in the battle against the strongest entity other than Rikudo Sennin, he's playing a part in the main even right now Hashi vs Madi is the mid-card, he doesn't need Hashirama he needs Sage Mode or do you think SM Naruto>Minato as well, needing a specific power from said shinobi doesn't make him more important to the overall scheme of things , we also know Minato is going to give Naruto the other half of Kurama so he's still pretty important to the overall scheme of things at worst they are both equal, Minato to Naruto and Hashirama to Madara.
> ...



1. Jiraiya expected one of his students to be the child of prophecy. Before Minato, he thought it was Nagato. See, nothing special there
2. Minato has done nothing against Obito that Tobirama has not done story wise. They are helping them but you have not shown how Minato is breaking them into leadership as you claimed
3. Madara says he needs Hashirama directly, his sage mode. Without Hashirama, the course of history changes. No rikudou, no jyuubi, no controlling the jyuubi, no Madara taking Obito's place. How does the course of history change story wise if Minato is not around?
4. You should go with the manga which shows that he was talking to his colleagues not Tobirama. Danzou made that clear. 
5. Hiruzen hype no longer stands because Hashirama has taken his place. So, no hype and no feats = Kishi wants me to believe he is the weakest hokage
6. Any of the hokages besides Hiruzen would have given the gokage better support against Madara. Hashirama could have taken him alone while hiraishin provides better support than anything Tsunade can do


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## ? (Sep 22, 2013)

Hashirama > Minato (Edo and living)> Tobirama > Tsunade> Hiruzen (old).


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 22, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Jiraiya expected one of his students to be the child of prophecy. Before Minato, he thought it was Nagato. See, nothing species there
> 2. Minato has done nothing against Obito that Tobirama has not done story wise. They are helping them but you have not shown how Minato is breaking them into leadership as you claimed
> 3. Madara says he needs Hashirama directly, his sage mode. Without Hashirama, the course of history changes. No rikudou, no jyuubi, no controlling the jyuubi, no Madara taking Obito's place. How does the course of history change story wise if Minato is not around?
> 4. You should go with the manga which shows that he was talking to his colleagues not Tobirama. Danzou made that clear.
> ...



1. actually Minato came after Nagato, the child of prophecy is the man that would change the world, for him to believe it were Minato meant that he thought he was extremely powerful, Yahiko, Konan, Minato teammates were trained by Jiriyia why didn't he bring them up! and the fact that Minato is in the class of. Rinnegan user says a lot about his power. and remember Jiriyia is talking about Prime Nagato not the guy whose potential was cut short by Hanzo, Nagato's potential was off the charts , so Minato was being compared to a man Jiriyia thought was the next Rikudo Sennin.

2. Remember Minato is without the usage of one of his arms and with the help of Naruto he was able to save the entire alliance, Minato is playing the role of Kakashi , he's the one to call Naruto and Sasuke the main stars, he's the one partaking in the heavy weight matchup , he's the final connection to Naruto and Sasuke officially taking over.

3. No he says he needs Hashirama's Sennin Modo to complete his plans, we know this because Juubi has been shown to be weak to natural energy

4. he's says he's the strongest there, last time as checked Tobirama was there 

5. Hashirama took Hiruzen's place as what from day one most concluded that Hashirama would most likely be stronger due to his VOTE parallel with Naruto his hype still stands as there has been nothing to confirm he's weaker than Tobirama and Tsunade or do you think Zetsu>Rikudo because he has more panel time

6. I said Hashirama and Minato are stronger though, I was talking about support making her superior to Hiruzen and Tobirama


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## Trojan (Sep 22, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Jiraiya expected one of his students to be the child of prophecy. Before Minato, he thought it was Nagato. See, nothing special there
> 2. Minato has done nothing against Obito that Tobirama has not done story wise. They are helping them but you have not shown how Minato is breaking them into leadership as you claimed
> 3. Madara says he needs Hashirama directly, his sage mode. Without Hashirama, the course of history changes. No rikudou, no jyuubi, no controlling the jyuubi, no Madara taking Obito's place. *How does the course of history change story wise if Minato is not around?*
> 4. You should go with the manga which shows that he was talking to his colleagues not Tobirama. Danzou made that clear.
> ...



If Minato was not around the alliance will be defeated by now. He saved them from the first TBB
and he saved them again from the 4 TBBs.

Hashi is important to the villains, not for the alliance.


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## Trojan (Sep 22, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. You will notice that my post referred to either the manga or logic while yours is all straw man arguments. It is typical fanboy behavior
> 2. There is no one stronger than Hashirama, only Obito and even then Hashirama's power is necessary to defeat his ass
> 3. Read the manga and you will find out what suigetsu said about Hashirama. I suggest you avail yourself of reading the manga some time



the Irony is killing me. 
as a matter of fact Hiruzen is not even one of my favorite characters. The one who's fanboy
and has biases to his characters is you. 

2- See? and your talking about fanboys behavior? What a joke. 

3- what he said? God of shinboi? Hiruzen has the title as well. 
and let's see your fanboyism in front of the manga what it said! 



「三代目は　特に歴代の中でも最強と言われポロフェッサーと呼ばれた天才だったんだぞ！」
"The sandaime, in particular, was a genius nicknamed the 'Professor,' and was called the strongest of all the Hokage".



Databook 1, Page 117
"プロフェッサー"と崇められる歴代最強の火影

The "Professor" revered as the strongest Hokage in history.


Databook 1, Page 119
"歴代最強""天才"など,三代目火影を形 容する言葉はに満ちている.

"History's Strongest", "Genius", etc., there are many words that describe the Sandaime Hokage.



DB2 Pg 84
Konohamaru paragraph:
歴代最強の火影と謳われた、三代目� �血を継ぐ木ノ葉丸。?木ノ葉崩し?� ��より敬愛する祖父を失い、その心は 悲しみに覆われる。だが必ずや里を� �る大樹に成長するであろう。果てぬ� ��標の祖父を目指して・ ・・！！

Konohamaru, descended from Sandaime, who was praised as history?s strongest Hokage


oh, yeah, so much for being the strongest. :rofl:rofl


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## Senjuclan (Sep 22, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> 1. actually Minato came after Nagato, the child of prophecy is the man that would change the world, for him to believe it were Minato meant that he thought he was extremely powerful, Yahiko, Konan, Minato teammates were trained by Jiriyia why didn't he bring them up! and the fact that Minato is in the class of. Rinnegan user says a lot about his power. and remember Jiriyia is talking about Prime Nagato not the guy whose potential was cut short by Hanzo, Nagato's potential was off the charts , so Minato was being compared to a man Jiriyia thought was the next Rikudo Sennin.
> 
> 2. Remember Minato is without the usage of one of his arms and with the help of Naruto he was able to save the entire alliance, Minato is playing the role of Kakashi , he's the one to call Naruto and Sasuke the main stars, he's the one partaking in the heavy weight matchup , he's the final connection to Naruto and Sasuke officially taking over.
> 
> ...



1. You can't read, can you? I said BEFORE Jiraiya thought Minato was the child of prophecy, he thought it was Nagato. Read the manga sometime and you will find out that Jiraiya thought Nagato was the cop before Minato. Then he thought Nagato died and he assumed Minato was it since Nagato was "dead". Minna to was never in the class of Nagato only a student of Jiraiya
2. Point remains that Minato was not the child of prophecy 
3. So in other words, you have no real argument. Calling Naruto the main star is the kind of thing that shikamaru does. Doesn't make him important. Hashirama on the other hand is the key to whether or not Madara takes over
4. You are reappearing the same thing you have said. He was addressing his colleagues and said he was the strongest of them all. He did not include Tobirama
5. Hashirama took Hiruzen's hype as the god of shinobi, the strongest hokage. Hiruzen is then without hype and the only basis of comparison is manga portrayal and jutsus. 
6. Well, hiraishin and sensing are better support than what she did. Tobirama is a couple of tiers above her. Better offense, better defense, more intelligence. She can only be compared to Hiruzen and she is stronger than him



Elia said:


> the Irony is killing me.
> as a matter of fact Hiruzen is not even one of my favorite characters. The one who's fanboy
> and has biases to his characters is you.
> 
> ...



1. You are a Minato fanboy and a Hashirama hater. Everyone knows that
2. Learn what a retcon is. Search the forum on the issue since there has been hundreds of threads about the text you attached


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## Trojan (Sep 22, 2013)

> 1. You are a Minato fanboy and a Hashirama hater. Everyone knows that


you are a Hashirama fanboy and a Minato haters. Everyone knows that

Simple right? 


> 2. Learn what a retcon is. Search the forum on the issue since there has been hundreds of threads about the text you attached



indeed, Hashirama WAS the god of shinboi first becase he was BEFORE Hiruzen. then that got retcon
and it became Hiruzen the one who took that title from Hashirama because he came later after him!


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## Federer (Sep 22, 2013)

1. Senju Hashirama
2. Senju Tobirama/Namikaze Minato
3. Tsunade
4. Hiruzen Sarutobi

Fighting Madara, the man who beat the Gokage, clearly makes him top the other Hokage.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 22, 2013)

Elia said:


> you are a Hashirama fanboy and a Minato haters. Everyone knows that
> 
> Simple right?
> 
> ...



1. I am actually a big Minato fan. I defended him before you bandwagonners showed up on the forum. Heck I defended him against people who said Hashirama was on a different tier than him.  that makes me a weird hater
2. Do you know what a recton is? You don't seem to. It has nothing to do with the timeline but the order of revelation. Hiruzen had a title and then was stripped of the title later in the manga, that is retroactive continuity. An established fact (Hiruzen's strength and title) is subtracted and altered to meet a new storyline (Hashirama as the first coming of Naruto and hence the shinobi no kami)


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## Trojan (Sep 22, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. I am actually a big Minato fan. I defended him before you bandwagonners showed up on the forum. Heck I defended him against people who said Hashirama was on a different tier than him.  that makes me a weird hater
> 2. Do you know what a recton is? You don't seem to. It has nothing to do with the timeline but the order of revelation. Hiruzen had a title and then was stripped of the title later in the manga, that is retroactive continuity. An established fact (Hiruzen's strength and title) is subtracted and altered to meet a new storyline (Hashirama as the first coming of Naruto and hence the shinobi no kami)



1- I wonder about that. @>@
2- Who said it can't be for two men to have the title? 
So, is Hashirama also took the title from the SOT6P, and the later is not the god of shinobi any more? No, Hashi held that title before, and so did Hiruzen. That does not mean it got recton from Hiruzen! 

and it's funny how everyone want to link someone else to Naruto to make them appear like they
should be the strongest! like you did with Hashitama now, and Pika did that with madara to make us think madara is relevant to the MCs and therefore he's better that obito or more relevant, and so fourth. 

However, from the good guys, Naruto has always been compared to Minato from the start of
the series. From the bad guys, it's obito as sucks as that seems, but that's how it is. The only thing that can link Hashi with Naruto is their well of fire. That's about it. Every other thing it's Minato!


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## Turrin (Sep 22, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 2. Do you know what a recton is? You don't seem to. It has nothing to do with the timeline but the order of revelation. Hiruzen had a title and then was stripped of the title later in the manga, that is retroactive continuity. An established fact (Hiruzen's strength and title) is subtracted and altered to meet a new storyline (Hashirama as the first coming of Naruto and hence the shinobi no kami)


Hiruzen was never stripped of the title, that's something people have made up after the fact. All that happened was Hashirama also got the title & nothing ever said two people can't have the title of "God of Shinobi". 

I tend to agree it's likely that Hiruzen was reteconned, but likely isn't the same thing as confirmed. If Kishi can asspull the powers Sakura recently displayed out of nowhere, he can certainly asspull enough power ups to justify Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage or whatever. So I don't know why it's so hard for people to just wait until Hiruzen gets more panel time before jumping the gun.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 22, 2013)

I am hopeful Hiruzen gets some actual feats, but come on. Name one thing Hiruzen has done to make himself stronger than SM Hashirama, any form of Minato, or Tobirama. We might get some in the next chapters, but right now Hiruzen is all bark and no bite.


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## Trojan (Sep 22, 2013)

^

at least wait until he start fighting or to the end of this battle. Unlike the other Hokages he did not really get
any chance to fight or to show his jutsus. I don't understand why people judge him like this!

Yes, in part 1 he was weak compare to the current power level, but so was Hashi and tobirama. 
Tobirama portrayed to be weak for the most part especially how Kin & Gin defeated him. Look now a lot
of people think he's the 2nd strongest Hokage, or at the same level as Minato!! 

Sakura, she was called useless by a lot of people, and it needed only 1 chapter for kishi to give her
the summon jutsu, the seal, the remote healing, and to state she surpassed Tsunade! 

Hashi & madara's battle were only 2 chapters (without their childhood flashback) and they were ridiculously
strong! It did not need more than that to show how powerful they are!

obito in one chapter was beaten by kakashi low-difficult, and in the next chapter he's the strongest after
the sage himself for being the jin! 

if kishi want to show how powerful Hiruzen is that will not take too long to do it! But as I said
Hiruzen did not get the chance to even fight!


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## Jagger (Sep 22, 2013)

Federer said:


> 1. Senju Hashirama
> 2. Senju Tobirama/Namikaze Minato
> 3. Tsunade
> 4. Hiruzen Sarutobi
> ...


In all fairness, beating the Gokage is a feat shared among Top-tiers. Naruto, Minato (only with BM), Nagato and Kabuto can all do it as well. But I agree with your list.


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## Turrin (Sep 22, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> I am hopeful Hiruzen gets some actual feats, but come on. Name one thing Hiruzen has done to make himself stronger than SM Hashirama, any form of Minato, or Tobirama. We might get some in the next chapters, but right now Hiruzen is all bark and no bite.


In fairness to Hiruzen Shuriken KB is a-lot better than people are giving Hiruzen credit for. According to the DB the Jutsu allows him to make 1,000 copies of the Shuriken with it and considering he's now displayed he can use it on very large Shuriken,  Especially since Hiruzen can place an explosive tag on the Shuriken and very likely copy that along with the Shuriken since KB/TKB has been shown to copy the Explosive Tags. So you can essentially have 1,000 giant exploding shuriken launched at the enemy, which should at least be around the level of tandem explosive tags in offensive might. 

I also Enma staff still seems pretty dam hax, considering how it was easily tearing through God Tree branches better than even Tobirama's Suiton attack was. And Hiruzen's KB are still the only KB in the manga that are able to take head on attacks and not disperse, which is pretty good as well. Finally his display of elemental Jutsu is pretty good, considering his location. He's still the only Doton user shown to create such a large Earth Wall w/o a pre-existing Doton source to draw on. A Katon version of Water Dragon, is pretty great in it's own right, and really we never got to see it's full size since Tobirama used his Suiton to extinguish it before it was formed. And than he has all 5s in the DB except for his physical stats which were effected by age, though magically as an Edo his speed doesn't seem effected anymore as he managed to keep up with the other Hokages sans Minato.


Honestly Hiruzen's basic skill set is better than any of the Hokages, what he personally lacks is their raw/power & hax techniques. He has Shiki Fuujin as 1 hax technique, but due to it's suicidal nature and him not seemingly being as good as Minato with it, it's not enough. The other Hokages have things like Edo Tensei, FTG, Mokuton, KCM/BM, etc... that Hiruzen just can't stack up to. But that can be easily rectified if Kishi gave him the right skills; for example Hiruzen turning out to be the inventor of the process for opening the 8-Gates, could easily put him back in the running for strongest, simple due to the fact that the power of the 8-Gates when combined with some-one whose actually good at Ninjutsu-Genjutsu unlike Gai, is hard to fathom.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 22, 2013)

With KBs....Minato can effectively solo anyone low difficulty if he Hirashin to a safe location to allow Shima and Fukasaku to sync.

Frog Song GG!!!


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 23, 2013)

Turrin said:


> In fairness to Hiruzen Shuriken KB is a-lot better than people are giving Hiruzen credit for. According to the DB the Jutsu allows him to make 1,000 copies of the Shuriken with it and considering he's now displayed he can use it on very large Shuriken,  Especially since Hiruzen can place an explosive tag on the Shuriken and very likely copy that along with the Shuriken since KB/TKB has been shown to copy the Explosive Tags. So you can essentially have 1,000 giant exploding shuriken launched at the enemy, which should at least be around the level of tandem explosive tags in offensive might.
> 
> I also Enma staff still seems pretty dam hax, considering how it was easily tearing through God Tree branches better than even Tobirama's Suiton attack was. And Hiruzen's KB are still the only KB in the manga that are able to take head on attacks and not disperse, which is pretty good as well. Finally his display of elemental Jutsu is pretty good, considering his location. He's still the only Doton user shown to create such a large Earth Wall w/o a pre-existing Doton source to draw on. A Katon version of Water Dragon, is pretty great in it's own right, and really we never got to see it's full size since Tobirama used his Suiton to extinguish it before it was formed. And than he has all 5s in the DB except for his physical stats which were effected by age, though magically as an Edo his speed doesn't seem effected anymore as he managed to keep up with the other Hokages sans Minato.
> 
> ...


I agree, but I would just like to see some feats from him before we can say he is stronger than the other Hokages.


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 23, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. You can't read, can you? I said BEFORE Jiraiya thought Minato was the child of prophecy, he thought it was Nagato. Read the manga sometime and you will find out that Jiraiya thought Nagato was the cop before Minato. Then he thought Nagato died and he assumed Minato was it since Nagato was "dead". Minna to was never in the class of Nagato only a student of Jiraiya
> 2. Point remains that Minato was not the child of prophecy
> 3. So in other words, you have no real argument. Calling Naruto the main star is the kind of thing that shikamaru does. Doesn't make him important. Hashirama on the other hand is the key to whether or not Madara takes over
> 4. You are reappearing the same thing you have said. He was addressing his colleagues and said he was the strongest of them all. He did not include Tobirama
> ...



1. you lack common sense and basic reading comprehension don't you, he thought of both of his students as potentially being shinobi that can be the next Rikudo Sennin of he thought Minato was capable of being the chosen one! then that mean Minato was immensely. powerful! you lack common sense if you think someone thinking you have the ability to shape the world isn't hype, at the end of the day, Jiriyia put Minato potential up there with a Rinnegan user with the same eyes as Rikudo Sennin, being COP= massive hype there is no way around it.

2. he wasn't but him being a candidate means his potential and talent was immense on top of that Raikage saw the man up close and came to the same conclusion as Jiriyia , for Raikage a stubborn man to believe in someone else's power and defer to that power means he had to be immensely impressed, considering the fact he still thought he could smash perfect jins and MS users, also we have Kaksashi saying Naruto can only surpass the 4th Hokage, why not say Hashirama instead, right now Kishi hasn't really made it official who is supposed to be the strongest between Minato and Hashirama, but the plot leans towards Minato.


3. calling them the main stars is a correlation that Naruto's generation is taking over. it's Minato standing side by side with The New Generation while Hashirama is bothering with relics, Hashirama might be the key to Madara taking over, but Minato is the key to Naruto winning the battle, whose more important here Naruto or Madara hmmm.

4. where is the proof that Tobirama wasn't included 

5. you weren't laying attention even with the GOS title his hype is still immense he was much stronger than Orochimaru w Edo Kage  he's stronger than Onoki in his old age, he was stronger than Danzo after the enhancements , his datascore was near flawless besides physical stats, he never lost a fight in his prime, nothing has changed except him being the strongest Hokage and that's only because of panel time, but by that notion Rikudo Sennin is weaker than TenTen, younger brother and elder brother are weaker than Fuck You Ninja ect.


6. Hirashin when used with Naruto's transfer ability , and Minato when using the Kunai in which Tobirama hasn't shown he can use, Tsunade was able to save the village from certain death, she saved the 5 Gokage from certain death, Combat ability I'll give you defense is a toss up considering she near impossible to kill in battle , intelligence can go either way considering she's excelled at medical ninjutsu and is able to run a village just as well as Tobirama there's nothing separating them besides combat ability.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 23, 2013)

Elia said:


> 1- I wonder about that. @>@
> 2- Who said it can't be for two men to have the title?
> So, is Hashirama also took the title from the SOT6P, and the later is not the god of shinobi any more? No, Hashi held that title before, and so did Hiruzen. That does not mean it got recton from Hiruzen!
> 
> ...



1. Facts are facts fanboy
2. First you should thank me for teaching you what a retcon is
3. The manga clearly shows the title is stripped from him because while h is standing there Kishi makes it a point to repeatedly have people call Hashirama kami not him. Hashirama is the legend comparable to RS not him, Hashirama is the measuring stick for power of the jyuubi Jin 
4. If you don't realize the similarities between Naruto and Hashirama that means your reading comprehension is horrible. Go back to VoTe, read the battle imagery and Kakashi's comments, read Tobi's comments to Naruto about the fate of the RS sons. Then compare the two characters quest in life and the means to achieve said quest

You really don't seem to understand the manga



Turrin said:


> Hiruzen was never stripped of the title, that's something people have made up after the fact. All that happened was Hashirama also got the title & nothing ever said two people can't have the title of "God of Shinobi".
> 
> I tend to agree it's likely that Hiruzen was reteconned, but likely isn't the same thing as confirmed. If Kishi can asspull the powers Sakura recently displayed out of nowhere, he can certainly asspull enough power ups to justify Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage or whatever. So I don't know why it's so hard for people to just wait until Hiruzen gets more panel time before jumping the gun.



1. If they both had the title, someone would have have referred to him as such by now to confirm it
2. The fact that Hiruzen was retconned is evident to all. I won't bother explaining to you again since we have had this argument before. Wait all you want since Hiruzen is now on the battlefield and you will see the obvious
3. Did you seriously say that his basic skills are superior to all the hokages? I hope you were kidding.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 23, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> 1. you lack common sense and basic reading comprehension don't you, he thought of both of his students as potentially being shinobi that can be the next Rikudo Sennin of he thought Minato was capable of being the chosen one! then that mean Minato was immensely. powerful! you lack common sense if you think someone thinking you have the ability to shape the world isn't hype, at the end of the day, Jiriyia put Minato potential up there with a Rinnegan user with the same eyes as Rikudo Sennin, being COP= massive hype there is no way around it.
> 
> 2. he wasn't but him being a candidate means his potential and talent was immense on top of that Raikage saw the man up close and came to the same conclusion as Jiriyia , for Raikage a stubborn man to believe in someone else's power and defer to that power means he had to be immensely impressed, considering the fact he still thought he could smash perfect jins and MS users, also we have Kaksashi saying Naruto can only surpass the 4th Hokage, why not say Hashirama instead, right now Kishi hasn't really made it official who is supposed to be the strongest between Minato and Hashirama, but the plot leans towards Minato.
> 
> ...



1. He thought so after Nagato was thought to be dead. Since Nagato's death took him out of the running then someone else must be the child of prophecy. So, he looked at his next student. It says nothing about Minato being comparable to Nagato. It just says that Minato was his student and decently powerful
2. Raikage never concluded that Minato was a savior. He only said what Jiraiya told him. Kakashi and them thought Hashirama's power was a legend so obviously they dismissed it. 
3. You still have not shown what Minato has done that Tobirama has not done. Fighting with Naruto does not mean breaking him into leadership. Minato's role is irrelevant to the story while Hashirama's is
4. I already provided you the proof. Danzou's comments about Tobirama as well the way Hiruzen speaks to Tobirama vs the other shin obit here
5. I never said panel time determines strength. Hiruzen's hype was changed. He is not the god of shinobi, he cannot perform all the Justus in Konoha, 10 years before Orochimaru's fight he was not full of chakra. As such, we cannot accept the previous statements and we assess him based on what he is showing in Part 2
6. Tobirama can use hiraishin with clones to accomplish the same thing Minato does and even more since there is more than one person to attack. Hiraishin is a much better defense than regeneration which takes its toll on the body. Finally, tobirama's intelligence can't even be compared to Tsunade's. He was a better administrator, created the infrastructure for the village success. She did nothing. His battle aptitude is superior to hers. His ability to create juts is vastly superior to hers. They can't even be in the same sentence when it comes to intelligence


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## Van Konzen (Sep 23, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> The four strongest zombies means the group of 4 is stronger than any other group of four. It does not say anything about the individual strength of the group members



oh fuq, I cant bear with this interpretation.. 




Bonly said:


> I'd have to disagree with you. In part one Sarutobi stated that he didn't believe any shinobi in Konoha had the strength to face and overcome Orochimaru in direct combat, including even himself so Kishi's portrayal shows that a member of the Sannin is too much Hiruzen. Now add in how Kishi portrayal suggest that all of the Sannin are equal hints to the same could easily apply to Tsunade and Jiraiya as well. If you bring in feats as well then Hiruzen has nothing to put down Tsunade nor does he have the stamina to outlast her either. Be it feats or portrayal or both, Tsunade and the rest of the Sannin are a step above Hiruzen.



coz age took a toll on Hiruzen, while in his prime years he was a beast and would stomp Oro..
is that really hard to grasp?.. Hiruzen and Oonoki have diffent body and thus would have difference
coping up with age..



Senjuclan said:


> 2. Do you know what a recton is? You don't seem to. It has nothing to do with the timeline but the order of revelation. Hiruzen had a title and then was stripped of the title later in the manga, that is retroactive continuity. An established fact (Hiruzen's strength and title) is subtracted and altered to meet a new storyline (Hashirama as the first coming of Naruto and hence the shinobi no kami)



scan please where Kishi says, Hiruzen was stripped off of the title.. and retcon?
"Adding information to the back story of a fictional character or world, without invalidating that which had gone before.".. as what I have read, Hashi got the title too same as Hiruzen and Hagoromo..
It only adds to our infos that there are now 3 charatcers that have that title.. it does not change the fact that there are others who have that.. unless Kishi clears the other 2 of the said ttitle but it is far from happening..



Turrin said:


> In fairness to Hiruzen Shuriken KB is a-lot better than people are giving Hiruzen credit for. According to the DB the Jutsu allows him to make 1,000 copies of the Shuriken with it and considering he's now displayed he can use it on very large Shuriken,  Especially since Hiruzen can place an explosive tag on the Shuriken and very likely copy that along with the Shuriken since KB/TKB has been shown to copy the Explosive Tags. So you can essentially have 1,000 giant exploding shuriken launched at the enemy, which should at least be around the level of tandem explosive tags in offensive might.
> 
> I also Enma staff still seems pretty dam hax, considering how it was easily tearing through God Tree branches better than even Tobirama's Suiton attack was. And Hiruzen's KB are still the only KB in the manga that are able to take head on attacks and not disperse, which is pretty good as well. Finally his display of elemental Jutsu is pretty good, considering his location. He's still the only Doton user shown to create such a large Earth Wall w/o a pre-existing Doton source to draw on. A Katon version of Water Dragon, is pretty great in it's own right, and really we never got to see it's full size since Tobirama used his Suiton to extinguish it before it was formed. And than he has all 5s in the DB except for his physical stats which were effected by age, though magically as an Edo his speed doesn't seem effected anymore as he managed to keep up with the other Hokages sans Minato.
> 
> ...



well said.. this guy is one of the few here I noticed to be worthy
of respect directly proprtional with his number of posts..


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## Turrin (Sep 23, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> If they both had the title, someone would have have referred to him as such by now to confirm it


Orochimaru confirmed he had the title in Part I. Since than no one had said Orochimaru was wrong or that the title was false. Just because a title hasn't yet been referenced again doesn't prove it's gone. Again you are confusing what is likely with, what is factual. Is it likely Hiruzen has been retecon'd, sure, but is it factual at this point, no.



> The fact that Hiruzen was retconned is evident to all. I won't bother explaining to you again since we have had this argument before. Wait all you want since Hiruzen is now on the battlefield and you will see the obvious


Personally I think Hiruzen has been retecon'd, however I'm not touting my opinion as a fact, which is the problem with your post.



> Did you seriously say that his basic skills are superior to all the hokages? I hope you were kidding


Hiruzen had all 5s in the DB except for the areas where he was indicated to have been weakened by age. So he probably has perfect all 5s when in his prime or at least very close to that. Hiruzen has also mastered thousands of Jutsu and currently still seems like the most intelligent of the Hokages considering how quickly he figured out the mechanics of Obito's black element as well as it's weakness. Something we have yet to see any of the other Hokages figure out.  

So yes I think Hiruzen command of the basics does exceed that of the other Hokages and all Hiruzen lacks is Raw Power &/or Hax-Techniques, that the other Hokages have. My point of bringing that up to the previous poster was to show that Kishi could easily give Hiruzen a power-up in a single chapter that would allow him to fight on par with the other Hokages. The raw power of 8-Gates applied to someone who can fuel thousands of different Jutsu with such great power, was simply an example of how that could be done.

Edit: My overarching point to you, is that if someone says they think Prime Hiruzen is the strongest, you can present them a good argument as to why their position is unlikely, while the position that other Hokages are stronger is likely. However you can't state as a matter of fact that they are wrong, since there is nothing in the manga cannon that proves their position wrong, only stuff that makes their position unlikely. And with Kishi unlikely doesn't mean "never-going-to-happen", as Sakura pulling out her BS power ups was unlikely, but it still happened, to name but one example.


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## Freechoice (Sep 23, 2013)

Turrin knows his                                      shit.


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 23, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. He thought so after Nagato was thought to be dead. Since Nagato's death took him out of the running then someone else must be the child of prophecy. So, he looked at his next student. It says nothing about Minato being comparable to Nagato. It just says that Minato was his student and decently powerful
> 2. Raikage never concluded that Minato was a savior. He only said what Jiraiya told him. Kakashi and them thought Hashirama's power was a legend so obviously they dismissed it.
> 3. You still have not shown what Minato has done that Tobirama has not done. Fighting with Naruto does not mean breaking him into leadership. Minato's role is irrelevant to the story while Hashirama's is
> 4. I already provided you the proof. Danzou's comments about Tobirama as well the way Hiruzen speaks to Tobirama vs the other shin obit here
> ...



1. Now we're finally getting somewhere, except replace decently with immensely powerful 

2. Raikage did conclude based upon Minato's performance that's what th flashback was about, it was comparing Naruto to Minato, once Raikage saw Naruto's potential as rivaling Minato's he concluded that Naruto could be the chosen one , that whole flashback was about Raikage hyping Naruto by gauging him against Minato, no Kakashi didn't dismiss it, he said ONLY you can surpass the 4th that's saying to Kakashi, Minato is the ultimate shinobi the problem your having is that because Hashirama received hype that by nature dehypes or takes away the hype of the other Hokage which is false, just because Hashirama received hype doesn't mean Kakashi or Orochimaru think that Hiruzen and Minato as being weaker .



3. Minato is the one looking at Naruto reflecting to himself how his son has progressed as a shinobi  he's the man that will give Naruto the power to defeat Obito the gift he has for him, it's obvious Minato is the one passing the torch , he even gave Their jutsu a nickname.

4. the only prof you have is the same proof I have and that's Hiruzen stating he's the strongest of them all and no one refuting that


5. Nothing has changed about Hiruzen, has Kishi came out and said Hiruzen is no longer GOS , or wasn't stronger than Onoki in old age, or that he couldn't beat Oro w Edo  did he take away his great Databook score. NO. the only thing keeping Hiruzen from living up to his hype is panel time, and with one chapter one panel  one jutsu it could change everything, we went thru this with Sakura, Kakashi, Edo Itachi eventually they got their panels and feats same will happen with Hiruzen , why is the only Hiruzen gets diminished because of lack of Panel time but with everyone else it's okay. show me the panels of Kishi saying Hiruzen is weaker than he was in pt 1.

6. he can't save the entire village with Hirashin, he couldn't save all the Gokage with Hirashin , he can't use it like Minato , Minato's is better for support because with Kunai he can teleport away from the battlefield , Tobirama is great for combat , Tsunade created all of her medical ninjutsu and has lead the village thru 3 crisis including the war.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 23, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> 1. Now we're finally getting somewhere, except replace decently with immensely powerful



So, you agree it is no comparison to Nagato. Anyone of Jiraiya student could be the savior



Eliyua23 said:


> 2. Raikage did conclude based upon Minato's performance that's what th flashback was about, it was comparing Naruto to Minato, once Raikage saw Naruto's potential as rivaling Minato's he concluded that Naruto could be the chosen one , that whole flashback was about Raikage hyping Naruto by gauging him against Minato



False. Raikage thought Jiraiya's belief was bullshit. He told Naruto so much. He said look at your dad, he is dead even though Jiraiya spouted nonsense about him being a savior, so don't go and die like your old man. He never said he thought Minato was a savior just that regardless of the fact that Jiraiya thought he was, he died



Eliyua23 said:


> , no Kakashi didn't dismiss it, he said ONLY you can surpass the 4th that's saying to Kakashi, Minato is the ultimate shinobi the problem your having is that because Hashirama received hype that by nature dehypes or takes away the hype of the other Hokage which is false, just because Hashirama received hype doesn't mean Kakashi or Orochimaru think that Hiruzen and Minato as being weaker .



Everyone who heard of his power dismissed it as a fairy tale like the RS. Fact. That includes Kakashi



Eliyua23 said:


> 3. Minato is the one looking at Naruto reflecting to himself how his son has progressed as a shinobi  he's the man that will give Naruto the power to defeat Obito the gift he has for him, it's obvious Minato is the one passing the torch , he even gave Their jutsu a nickname.



So, in other words he has not done anything to break them into leadership. He is assisting them as much as Tobirama is



Eliyua23 said:


> 4. the only prof you have is the same proof I have and that's Hiruzen stating he's the strongest of them all and no one refuting that



 I have answered it this many times now. Danzou says otherwise and Hiruzen's speech makes it clear that he was not including the hokage



Eliyua23 said:


> 5. Nothing has changed about Hiruzen, has Kishi came out and said Hiruzen is no longer GOS , or wasn't stronger than Onoki in old age, or that he couldn't beat Oro w Edo  did he take away his great Databook score. NO. the only thing keeping Hiruzen from living up to his hype is panel time, and with one chapter one panel  one jutsu it could change everything, we went thru this with Sakura, Kakashi, Edo Itachi eventually they got their panels and feats same will happen with Hiruzen , why is the only Hiruzen gets diminished because of lack of Panel time but with everyone else it's okay. show me the panels of Kishi saying Hiruzen is weaker than he was in pt 1.



We have seen him in Part 2 and he was still weak. He was weak when the kyuubi attacked and he is weak today again



Eliyua23 said:


> 6. he can't save the entire village with Hirashin, he couldn't save all the Gokage with Hirashin , he can't use it like Minato , Minato's is better for support because with Kunai he can teleport away from the battlefield , Tobirama is great for combat , Tsunade created all of her medical ninjutsu and has lead the village thru 3 crisis including the war.



He could easily save the gokages. He teleported Naruto, Hiruzen and Minato last chapter. He could save the village as well. He only has to teleport Pein away

There is absolutely no difference between Minato's hiraishin and Tobirama besides the application of the seal. The number of people they can teleport is limited by how many people are touching them


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## Kai (Sep 23, 2013)

*Hype argument:* When Obito emerged as the Juubi's Jinchuuriki, an occupation that is quite literally the most powerful entity in the manga, Hashirama was the one to break in the news that the Juubi Jin was even more powerful than he is.

Now, you'll have to ask yourself which character would have to admit inferiority to bring about the most weight in regards to directly hyping the power of the strongest character in the manga.

That is exactly what Kishi did, and that character is Hashirama. Hiruzen, who followed, stated "I hate to say it ... but I agree." 

What this does is instill a sense of disbelief that there could be a character more powerful than Hashirama. Minato is not involved in this comparison for the absolute top of the food chain.


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## P3IN (Sep 23, 2013)

I'm pretty sure it's still hashirama being the top dog ._.


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## Kaiser (Sep 23, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> False. Raikage thought Jiraiya's belief was bullshit. He told Naruto so much. He said look at your dad, he is dead even though Jiraiya spouted nonsense about him being a savior, so don't go and die like your old man. He never said he thought Minato was a savior just that regardless of the fact that Jiraiya thought he was, he died


He did believe he was the savior. It's exactly because Minato died prematurely that he lost the behaviour. But he did say at the end of his skirmich with Naruto that: get behind Sasuke
 "I see the savior is still alive inside you"
So even dead, he still acknowledge Minato as the savior. It says a lot


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## Azula (Sep 23, 2013)

Minato had yet to gain Bijuu mode when obito became the juubi jinchuriki


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## Kai (Sep 23, 2013)

-Azula- said:


> Minato had yet to gain Bijuu mode when obito became the juubi jinchuriki


What elements of hype followed Minato upon gaining Bijuu Mode? 

Anything actually relative to the established most powerful characters? Fans, advocates, and their conjectures will fight to the end that something monumental has happened that shifts the top tiers around. 

The power standings of the top food chain still remain as they are, in respect to the manga. The only ones that are progressively surpassing everyone else is Naruto and in all likelihood Sasuke.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 23, 2013)

As stated when minato showed kcm

Hashirama > kcm minato > tobirama > minato > sarutobi

Minato has not shown many kcm feats besides teleporting the alliance however he should be stronger then tobirama. Also minato would not have access to kcm while alive


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Kai said:


> [
> Now, you'll have to ask yourself which character would have to admit inferiority to bring about the most weight in regards to directly hyping the power of the strongest character in the manga.



Madara.

I assume Edo Madara is stronger than Hashirama at this point.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Madara.
> 
> I assume Edo Madara is stronger than Hashirama at this point.



Hashirama is keeping up with edo Madara in base with chakra divided up between clones.


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## Kai (Sep 23, 2013)

I would have thought so too, but it seems Madara may need Hashirama's Sennin chakra in order for that to be a certainty.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Kai said:


> I would have thought so too, but it seems Madara may need Hashirama's Sennin chakra in order for that to be a certainty.



I'm sure that with the Rinnegan's power to negate Ninjutsu along with it's other tricks, as well as Hashirama's own Mokuton, Madara is 100% above Hashirama without the need of Sage Mode.

Madara needs Hashirama's Sage Chakra for something else. He doesn't need it to beat Hashirama.



Atlantic Storm said:


> Hashirama is keeping up with edo Madara in base with chakra divided up between clones.



Hashirama was in Sage Mode most of their fight, and they're obviously not going all out. Madara has yet to delve into the Rinnegan or Mokuton.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I'm sure that with the Rinnegan's power to negate Ninjutsu along with it's other tricks, as well as Hashirama's own Mokuton, Madara is 100% above Hashirama without the need of Sage Mode.



Then how is Hashirama, who is weakened by the fact that he has clones dividing up his chakra, keeping up with edo Madara? You could argue that Madara doesn't want to kill him, but from what we've seen, the opposite also applies in that Hashirama doesn't appear to be going in for the kill. I also don't believe the Rinnegan can simply negate Hashirama's mokuton either.


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## Bonly (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Then how is Hashirama, who is weakened by the fact that he has clones dividing up his chakra, keeping up with edo Madara? You could argue that Madara doesn't want to kill him, but from what we've seen, the opposite also applies in that Hashirama doesn't appear to be going in for the kill. I also don't believe the Rinnegan can simply negate Hashirama's mokuton either.



Hashi so far has only shown one clone out as of now so he's not really weakened.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Then how is Hashirama, who is weakened by the fact that he has clones dividing up his chakra, keeping up with edo Madara? You could argue that Madara doesn't want to kill him, but from what we've seen, the opposite also applies in that Hashirama doesn't appear to be going in for the kill. I also don't believe the Rinnegan can simply negate Hashirama's mokuton either.



First off, I though Hashirama's clones were gone.

Second, like I said, they aren't fighting all out. Madara can conjure up indefinite Susano'o busting meteorites from the sky with the Rinnegan, so I'm going to say that the most powerful Dojutsu in existence will make a difference here. It's foolish to assume against it. On top of that, he has pretty much all of Hashirama's non-sage arsenal.


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## Kai (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I'm sure that with the Rinnegan's power to negate Ninjutsu along with it's other tricks, as well as Hashirama's own Mokuton, Madara is 100% above Hashirama without the need of Sage Mode.


Hashirama has seen Madara's Rin'negan in operation, he's displayed knowledge of Gedo Rinne Tensei, and he has no problem outright stating when there exists a power above his own.

Madara being more powerful than Hashirama as he is, currently is not reflected at all in the manga by either Madara or Hashirama who have been clashing with each other for several chapters.

I've also voiced in the past why I don't believe Preta Path works on Mokuton, noticeably because of Mokuton's similarity in description to Kabuto's Muki Tensei.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Madara needs Hashirama's Sage Chakra for something else. He doesn't need it to beat Hashirama.


Once Madara acquires Hashirama's Sennin chakra, it can then be comfortably assumed that he is more powerful than Hashirama.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> First off, I though Hashirama's clones were gone.



I only remember one being destroyed and there being a few others scurrying around. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though, as my memory on Naruto these days is blurry at best. 



> Second, like I said, they aren't fighting all out. Madara can conjure up indefinite Susano'o busting meteorites from the sky with the Rinnegan,



Which Hashirama can just regenerate from.



> so I'm going to say that the most powerful Dojutsu in existence will make a difference here.



That's obvious, but I don't think he could absorb a mokuton jutsu. The chakra? Sure. But mokuton is new life created from chakra, and while the jutsu would probably considerably weaken with the chakra gone, I hardly think it's going to suddenly going to disappear on contact with the barrier. This seems to support the idea that Madara can't absorb solid substances.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Kai said:


> Hashirama has seen Madara's Rin'negan in operation, he's displayed knowledge of Gedo Rinne Tensei, and he has no problem outright stating when there exists a power above his own.



That's silly logic. Hashirama doesn't have to let us know every time someone surpasses him. I actually think that would be bad writing. As of now, Hashirama doesn't even know half of what Madara can do.



> Madara being more powerful than Hashirama as he is, currently is not reflected at all in the manga by either Madara or Hashirama who have been clashing with each other for several chapters.



This fight hasn't portrayed either above the other. However, it would be really weird if a Madara~Hashirama fusion with the Rinnegan was less powerful than Hashirama. 

Edo Madara > VotE Madara. Hashirama _*barley*_ won against VotE Madara, so I believe Edo Madara is superior. 



> Once Madara acquires Hashirama's Sennin chakra, it can then be comfortably assumed that he is more powerful than Hashirama.



Obviously.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That's silly logic. Hashirama doesn't have to let us know every time someone surpasses him. I actually think that would be bad writing. As of now, Hashirama doesn't even know half of what Madara can do.



As far as we know, Madara has had the Rinnegan activated throughout his entire 'battle' with Hashirama, and from what I recall, Hashirama has knowledge on the capabilities of the Rinnegan. He also seemed to sense that Orochimaru had his cells implanted, so it's probably not too far-fetched to assume he can sense that Madara has done the same as well.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I only remember one being destroyed and there being a few others scurrying around. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though, as my memory on Naruto these days is blurry at best.







> Which Hashirama can just regenerate from.



If you're going to use Edo logic, then Hashirama can't even kill Madara at all ever, while Madara has the Soul Rip.



> That's obvious, but I don't think he could absorb a mokuton jutsu. The chakra? Sure. But mokuton is new life created from chakra, and while the jutsu would probably considerably weaken with the chakra gone, I hardly think it's going to suddenly going to disappear on contact with the barrier. This seems to support the idea that Madara can't absorb solid substances.



I never though Preta could absorb Mokuton, just suck out the Chakra. It wouldn't help against things with massive momentum such as the 1000 hands statue or the Wood Creatures, but it's certainly a nice tool.



> As far as we know, Madara has had the Rinnegan activated throughout his entire 'battle' with Hashirama, and from what I recall, Hashirama has knowledge on the capabilities of the Rinnegan. He also seemed to sense that Orochimaru had his cells implanted, so it's probably not too far-fetched to assume he can sense that Madara has done the same as well.



Jiraiya apparently had knowledge on the capabilities of the Rinnegan, right?

I wasn't really talking about that anyway. I was speaking more of the fact that Madara can drop meteors and use Hashirama's entire base arsenal.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 23, 2013)

Welp. 



> If you're going to use Edo logic, then Hashirama can't even kill Madara at all ever, while Madara has the Soul Rip.



Madara has never displayed the ability to use the soul rip ability of Human Realm.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Madara has never displayed the ability to use the soul rip ability of Human Realm.



And Hashirama has never displayed the ability to use Flower Tree World.

That argument doesn't fly with me. Madara should be able to use the Jutsu of his own eyes. Nagato was the one that stole from Madara, not vice-versa.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> And Hashirama has never displayed the ability to use Flower Tree World.



That argument doesn't fly with me. Madara should be able to use the Jutsu of his own eyes. Nagato was the one that stole from Madara, not vice-versa.[/QUOTE]

Tsunade explicitly stated it was his technique. Madara has never said or even suggested he can use it, and while it's true that these are his eyes, he only unlocked them towards the end of his life when he was pretty much on life support. Even if he could use them, I doubt he could apply it as skilfully in combat as Nagato, who has more experience/practice using his Rinnegan abilities but less understanding over them.


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## Tarot (Sep 23, 2013)

1.)Hashirama
2.)Minato
3.)Tobirama
4.)Tsunade
5.)Hiruzen

Prime Hiruzen is a featless hyped up Hiruzen that was probably retconned long ago. Ohnoki has shown awesome feats despite his old age so that's not much of a valid excuse to me. Hashirama's hype goes way back into early part 2
 . -Sasuke and Sai arc: We learn that he had the power to control biju and Orochimaru really wanted his cells 
 -Kakuzu arc: We learned that Kakuzu barely survived a fight against
Itachi pursuit Arc: we finally learn that Hashirama was able to beat Madara+Kurama at the same time.
and so on to the War arc.


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## Kai (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That's silly logic. Hashirama doesn't have to let us know every time someone surpasses him. I actually think that would be bad writing. As of now, Hashirama doesn't even know half of what Madara can do.


If Madara was more powerful than Hashirama right now, we wouldn't be here speculating about it.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> This fight hasn't portrayed either above the other. However, it would be really weird if a Madara~Hashirama fusion with the Rinnegan was less powerful than Hashirama.
> 
> Edo Madara > VotE Madara. Hashirama _*barley*_ won against VotE Madara, so I believe Edo Madara is superior.


That may be so, but in terms of power output Edo Madara can't match firepower of full Kurama fused with Perfect Susano'o. If he is superior, he will make up for it by technique.

Currently, Hashirama has been matching Perfect Susano'o with merely the Mokuton Dragon.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Madara has never said or even suggested he can use it, and while it's true that these are his eyes, he only unlocked them towards the end of his life when he was pretty much on life support.



Okay? He had absolutely no training with Mokuton, yet was busting out Hashirama's elite Jutsu.



> Even if he could use them, I doubt he could apply it as skilfully in combat as Nagato, who has more experience/practice using his Rinnegan abilities but less understanding over them.



To me, Madara applied the Rinnegan more skillfully when he dropped two asteroids that wiped a division off the map, but maybe that's just me. 

He also used Preta Path pretty skillfully. Weird that Madara can only use one random Rinnegan technique.


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## Kai (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Okay? He had absolutely no training with Mokuton, yet was busting out Hashirama's elite Jutsu.


Says who? 

Madara had Hashirama's cells integrated within his body for decades prior to unlocking the Rin'negan. Considering the young Obito's growth, this isn't some kind of shock.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Okay? He had absolutely no training with Mokuton, yet was busting out Hashirama's elite Jutsu.



Busting out Hashirama's elite jutsu requires three things: the cells required to use it, slapping his hands together and enough chakra to use them. It's not particularly hard, and considering he's undoubtedly seen them countless times in battle, Madara probably has experience with it. The Rinnegan is a bit more of a different matter.


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## Dominus (Sep 23, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> 4. he's says he's the strongest there, last time as checked Tobirama was there



Yeah, and he told Danzō to take care of the others/to get them out of there safely, does that also apply to the Hokage? Is that because Tobirama can't take care of himself? He was obviously talking to Tobirama's students in both cases. I don't know why you think that what Hiruzen said applies to Tobirama also, but don't believe what Danzō stated was true when he was obviously talking to Tobirama.



> 5. his hype still stands as there has been nothing to confirm he's weaker than Tobirama and Tsunade or do you think Zetsu>Rikudo because he has more panel time



We've seen Hiruzen fight, but we've never seen Tobirama fight 1 vs. 1... yet by feats Tobirama is stronger than Hiruzen.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

Kai said:


> *Hype argument:* When Obito emerged as the Juubi's Jinchuuriki, an occupation that is quite literally the most powerful entity in the manga, Hashirama was the one to break in the news that the Juubi Jin was even more powerful than he is.
> 
> Now, you'll have to ask yourself which character would have to admit inferiority to bring about the most weight in regards to directly hyping the power of the strongest character in the manga.
> 
> ...



yeah, that's cool story, but what you failed at
1- this Hiruzen is the old Hiruzen who brought back even weaker, and we are talking about
Prime Hiruzen.

2- Minato did not have BM at that point.

3- if kishi want to say that, he would have said "he's EVEN stronger than me" if he used the
word "EVEN" that's would be the deal breaker I guess. 

4- you can NOT conceal a clear proof/statement by another one like this one. 
because that's was a direct one CLEARLY stated Hiruzen > Hashirama
so how the hell Hashirama < obito, meant Hashi > Hiruzen?

and it's funny that obito defeated all the Hokages except Minato so far.


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## Turrin (Sep 23, 2013)

Kai said:


> *Hype argument:* When Obito emerged as the Juubi's Jinchuuriki, an occupation that is quite literally the most powerful entity in the manga, Hashirama was the one to break in the news that the Juubi Jin was even more powerful than he is.
> 
> Now, you'll have to ask yourself which character would have to admit inferiority to bring about the most weight in regards to directly hyping the power of the strongest character in the manga.
> 
> ...


Let me pose a hypothetical scenario to you. Let's say we reverse the roles of Hiruzen and Hashirama:

Hiruzen, "He's Stronger than me"
Hashirama, "I hate to say it ... but I agree." 

I guarantee you that most people would not interpret this as Hiruzen > Hashirama, and Hashirama lamenting that even his superior is weaker than Obito. Rather the interpretation would be, that Hiruzen is admitting his strength can't measure up against a current "top tier", & Hashirama is trying his best to be polite about the fact that unlike himself Hiruzen can no longer measure up to a current "top tier". 

The reason why we end up with a totally different interpretation of the scene when roles are reversed is because Hashirama was the Hokage who Kishi most recently hyped, and thus his feats, accomplishments, etc... are the most fresh in the minds of fans. On the flip side of this Hiruzen has no display in Part II that is fresh in the fans minds. Thus, saying Obito is stronger than a guy Kishi just spent multiple chapters hyping, Hashirama, is going to be the simplest and less round about way to hype Obito's strength to fans, regardless of whether Kishi is planning on him being the de-facto strongest Hokage.

So to me it's really a simple matter of timing as to why Hashirama was the one to admit inferiority. And if we try to take more from that statement than that, such as trying to decipher who is the strongest Hokage, I think that is putting a bit too much value on said statement.

With that said I think there are other statements that seem at face value to hype Hashirama above his Hokage-peers that can be cited, but I don't think this is one of them. Though to be totally fair to those who support another Hokage as being >= Hashirama, it is a bit odd that despite the multiple statements that seem to lean in that direction, Kishi has never had a character come right out and state that is indeed the case. I mean Kishi has had amply opportunity at this point to have someone state Hashirama is the strongest, like he had no problem with Iruka stating this was the case for Prime Hiruzen in Part I, but for some reason Kishi seems to be hyping Hashirama to a point just shy of such a statement. And to me that is really the only fact (besides Minato ever rising "power-level") that makes me have some doubts over whether Hashirama is de-facto the strongest Hokage and still some-what open to the unlikely possibility that Prime Hiruzen's hype may not have been retcon'd.


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## αce (Sep 23, 2013)

That argument doesn't even work because that hypothetical would have never happened.


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## αce (Sep 23, 2013)

Kai's argument was basically what I was going to post. But he phrased it better than I was going to, so just go with that.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

αce said:


> Kai's argument was basically what I was going to post. But he phrased it better than I was going to, so just go with that.



that's would have been nice, had it not been wrong argument. 
especially that Hashi knows nothing about Hiruzen after his death, or about Minato.

it's just like when people find the excuses against Sakura and how hashi does not  know
about the current Tsunade, but when it comes to him... lol


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Kai said:


> Says who?
> 
> Madara had Hashirama's cells integrated within his body for decades prior to unlocking the Rin'negan. Considering the young Obito's growth, this isn't some kind of shock.



Mokuton is what Kabuto meant by "past prime." Also, Madara wasn't even sure he could pull of Mokuton when he was first revived, thus him wanting to "try Justu out."

You also made it sound like Madara actually trained in his old age. The man was on life support for Christ sakes.



Atlantic Storm said:


> Busting out Hashirama's elite jutsu requires three things: the cells required to use it, slapping his hands together and enough chakra to use them. It's not particularly hard, and considering he's undoubtedly seen them countless times in battle, Madara probably has experience with it. The Rinnegan is a bit more of a different matter.



.....And having the skill to pull them off. You're speaking like anyone with a decent amount of Chakra could concentrate & spiral some into their palm and pull of Rasengan. I guess we should grant Obito Hashirama's Mokuton feats, as he meets the criteria of cells, stamina, and having hands. 

Anyway, going off your logic, why would the Rinnegan be any different?


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## Seiji (Sep 23, 2013)

Hashirama is the strongest whether Minato fanboys like it or not.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

Siriυs said:


> Hashirama is the strongest whether Minato fanboys like it or not.





Hashi is not the strongest whether Hashi's fanboys like it or not.


「三代目は　特に歴代の中でも最強と言われポロフェッサーと呼ばれた天才だったんだぞ！」
"The sandaime, in particular, was a genius nicknamed the 'Professor,' and was called the strongest of all the Hokage".



Databook 1, Page 117
"プロフェッサー"と崇められる歴代最強の火影

The "Professor" revered as the strongest Hokage in history.


Databook 1, Page 119
"歴代最強""天才"など,三代目火影を形 容する言葉はに満ちている.

"History's Strongest", "Genius", etc., there are many words that describe the Sandaime Hokage.



DB2 Pg 84
Konohamaru paragraph:
歴代最強の火影と謳われた、三代目� �血を継ぐ木ノ葉丸。?木ノ葉崩し?� ��より敬愛する祖父を失い、その心は 悲しみに覆われる。だが必ずや里を� �る大樹に成長するであろう。果てぬ� ��標の祖父を目指して・ ・・！！

Konohamaru, descended from Sandaime, who was praised as history?s strongest Hokage

their excuses is amusing though.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 23, 2013)

That hype was obviously retconned. The first indication should have been the fact that Hiruzen isn't the God of Shinobi in the current canon; it's Hashirama.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> That hype was obviously retconned. The first indication should have been the fact that Hiruzen isn't the God of Shinobi in the current canon; it's Hashirama.



then why is there not a single statement that stated "Hasi is the strongest Hokage"? :amazed

lol, and again who said there is no way that more than one can hold the title? Also,
Hashirama came before Hiruzen, so it's Hiruzen is the one who took that title from Hashirama
not the other way around, if anything. 

if you have a single proof that Hashi is stronger than the others bring it on, and end this mess.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 23, 2013)

Elia said:


> then why is there not a single statement that stated "Hasi is the strongest Hokage"? :amazed
> 
> lol, and again who said there is no way that more than one can hold the title? Also,
> Hashirama came before Hiruzen, so it's Hiruzen is the one who took that title from Hashirama
> ...



There shouldn't really need to be an explicit statement to demonstrate the obvious. Based on hype (Hashirama and Madara have both received hype far beyond Hiruzen's) and feats, Hashirama is quite clearly beyond Sarutobi. The manga has quite clearly established that 'normal' shinobi (outside of those with tailed beasts) can't really compete with Uchihas or Senju. The two are practically the demi-gods of the Narutoverse.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> There shouldn't really need to be an explicit statement to demonstrate the obvious. Based on hype (Hashirama and Madara have both received hype far beyond Hiruzen's) and feats, Hashirama is quite clearly beyond Sarutobi. The manga has quite clearly established that 'normal' shinobi (outside of those with tailed beasts) can't really compete with Uchihas or Senju. The two are practically the demi-gods of the Narutoverse.



- Well, if it were do obvious, you wouldn't have seen all the disagreement, would you? 
- No they did not, the fact that Hiruzen > Hasirama, make everything hashi does or receive is less than Hiruzen's hype, because we know from his hype that it does not matter how strong is Hashi because he'll be weaker than prime Hiruzen. Therefor, what Hashi does now is only make prime Hiruzen look insanely powerful.

- Well, that's remain as your opinion, no more than that because who have characters who are
NOT uchihas or senju who are stronger than some of their members. Examples. 

Jman > Itachi, or Tsunade. 
SM Naruto > MS Sasuke, MS itachi, Tsunade and possible Tobirama.
base Minato > Sasuke, itachi, Tsunade and Tobirama. 
prime Hiruzen > Hashirama, Tobirama, Tsunade, itachi, and sasuke

the edo kage are stronger than Tsunade, and at they seem at Tobirama's level, and even itachi's
Nagato is from the uzumaki and he's stronger than them as well (except madara, obito, and Hashi)

and so on and so fourth. 
Indeed Hashi and Madara are extremely strong, but no where in the manga that stated they
can't be defeated by anyone, and no one can kill them. (Especially that Hashi was killed by fodders in the 2st war)

anyway, we all know this debate will not end with agreement, and Hashi's fanboys will continue
denying the manga for their favorite characters, so perhaps, we can all wait and see what they
will do in this war because so far Hashi is rather useless. 

and I'm done here, there is nothing to add if even the manga's statements are being ignored. 
(unless they are in Hashi's favor. lol )


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## Turrin (Sep 23, 2013)

αce said:


> That argument doesn't even work because that hypothetical would have never happened.


You have no basis to say that and you seem to have totally missed the point of my post anyway.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 23, 2013)

Elia said:


> - Well, if it were do obvious, you wouldn't have seen all the disagreement, would you?
> - No they did not, the fact that Hiruzen > Hasirama, make everything hashi does or receive is less than Hiruzen's hype,



The problem with this is that hype is secondary to feats in the Battledome. The idea that Sarutobi's hype surpasses Hashirama's is arguable at best, since we've had statements that blatantly put Hashirama and Madara on another level, but while Hashirama has had the feats to back up these statements, Sarutobi has... not.



> because we know from his hype that it does not matter how strong is Hashi because he'll be weaker than prime Hiruzen. Therefor, what Hashi does now is only make prime Hiruzen look insanely powerful.



Ignoring the fact that Kishimoto obviously doesn't care for Sarutobi and has retconned his hype as the strongest Hokage, what could Sarutobi possibly have that could put him on the same level as Hashirama? He's got everything he had in his prime as an edo tensei; his skills haven't diminished, he has regeneration and far higher stamina. So far, he's shown us nothing that suggests he's anywhere near the same ballpark as Hashirama. 



> SM Naruto > MS Sasuke, MS itachi, Tsunade and possible Tobirama.



Naruto is an Uzumaki and is this era's version of Hashirama. This is obvious.



> Indeed Hashi and Madara are extremely strong, but no where in the manga that stated they
> can't be defeated by anyone, and no one can kill them. (Especially that Hashi was killed by fodders in the 2st war)



Except by Dan. He says it quite explicitly that only Hashirama can defeat Madara. This includes prime Hiruzen. 



> anyway, we all know this debate will not end with agreement, and Hashi's fanboys will continue
> denying the manga for their favorite characters, so perhaps,



You're in a debate, mate. Calling someone bias is in extremely poor taste and just terrible etiquette in general. Prove your worth by convincing the other person, not by trying to provoke them with personal attacks and accusations. 



> we can all wait and see what they
> will do in this war because so far Hashi is rather useless.



Hashirama has done far more than Sarutobi so far. He trapped the Juubi and is keeping Madara from... well, going around killing people.


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## αce (Sep 23, 2013)

> that's would have been nice, had it not been wrong argument.
> especially that Hashi knows nothing about Hiruzen after his death, or about Minato.



You're missing the point. Hashirama's knowledge about Hiruzen is completely irrelevent. And it wasn't even the central part of Kai's argument. The point is that the author knows who the strongest is and chose to use that character to hype Obito's new found abilities. Ask yourself why he would use Hashirama instead of Hiruzen if the latter character is stronger.

Once again, Hashirama's knowledge doesn't matter when the author is attempting to portray something. In this case, it was to make Obito look like he was some sort of demi-god by using the strongest hokage as a comparison. 




> You have no basis to say that and you seem to have totally missed the point of my post anyway.



That's funny because it happened one way in the manga and you have no basis that hypothetical would have ever happened. And yes, I did get the point of your post. It was wrong.


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## Turrin (Sep 23, 2013)

αce said:


> That's funny because it happened one way in the manga and you have no basis that hypothetical would have ever happened. And yes, I did get the point of your post. It was wrong.


Ace apparently you don't know what a hypothetical is


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 23, 2013)

Without all the hype clouding my judgement.

Minato=>Hashirama>Tobirama>Tsunade>=Hiruzen

No need to put "BM" for minato since the kyuubi power is his being a jinchuriki before death and all. Characters get whatever power they had before they died as far as i am concerned.


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## Bonly Jr. (Sep 23, 2013)

BM Minato is the strongest.

People wanna take away his feats? Deal wid it.

Manga feats is manga feats, regardless of -snip-


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 23, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> So, you agree it is no comparison to Nagato. Anyone of Jiraiya student could be the savior
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. No you agreed that in order to be a candidate for COP Minato had to be strong which makes sense considering Jiriyia never thought of Minato's teammates, PT 1 Naruto, Konan, or Yahiko as COP all whom he taught at one point and time



2. What do you think the flashback was about, what happened in the flashback, oh it was Minato fodderizing he and his brother justifying most of the hype Jiriyia had given him, and he also said I see the savior burning inside Naruto, that whole scene was hyping Minato by Raikage gauging Naruto's strength against his, c'mon man it's simple shit

Minato was the supposed to be the savior, I remember when he kicked my ass but now that he's gone there is no COP, oh you can do the same thing as your strong father , so I guess his potential still lives on.


3. Why did Kakashi use the 4th as the measuring stick for Naruto knowing the full history of Hashirama and the VOTE.

4. Yes he has he's the one naming their jutsu , reflecting on Naruto and Minato will be the one to give Naruto the power to defeat Juubito

5. What has he done in PT he's fighting the same Juubito that even Hashirama admitted inferiority to or is evert other shinobi weak that can't defeat Juubito , against Kyuubi he did just as well as any shinobi could do, the only way to defeat Kurama is by sealing him! other than that what can you really do, he was pushing the Kyuubi out of the village until Minato showed up, and it's obvious that wasn't his prime as he had decided to step down from Hokage then.

6. So a Tobirama can teleport six Pain bodies away lol no, and what would he do with the Gokage served limbs , there's a difference Minato can cover a greater radius .


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## Dominus (Sep 23, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> there's a difference Minato can cover a greater radius .



Any evidence to back this up?


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 23, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> Any evidence to back this up?



evidence is shown in how they use it, because Minato can spread his Kunai around he can travel greater distances we saw that when Minato arrived first and teleported the Juubidama


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## Hero (Sep 23, 2013)

1. Hashirama
2. Tobirama
3. Minato
4. Tsunade
5. Hiruzen/Danzo


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## Veracity (Sep 23, 2013)

Hero said:


> 1. Hashirama
> 2. Tobirama
> 3. Minato
> 4. Tsunade
> 5. Hiruzen/Danzo



This. Except Minato and Tobi switched.


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## tracytracy22 (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Except by Dan. He says it quite explicitly that only Hashirama can defeat Madara. This includes prime Hiruzen.



I disagree with nothing that you've said except this. We dont know if Dan actually witnessed or knew what Prime Hiruzen was capable of. And how do we know he didnt just say what he said because he know for a fact that Hashirama defeated Madara in the past?


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## Zaelapolopollo (Sep 23, 2013)

Danbo below Tsunade?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 23, 2013)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Danbo below Tsunade?



It would be a close match up but tsunade would outlast with her strength of one hundred technique. Danzo's long range wind techs would just delay the inevitable since she can knock away wind balls and disrupt wind blades to minimize the damage she takes from them. Seeing as her regen can last from daytime to nighttime while healing others she would have no problems with stamina in the grand scheme of things. Danzo would conk out before the match even go on that long. Katsuyu can counter baku since it should not be totally resistant to acid.

If danzo uses shisui eye power however(cheat power)...he can easily take the win.


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## ToadFlameBomb (Sep 23, 2013)

Can i PLEASE say something. Yes, Kishimoto changed his mind obviously, but ORIGINALLY, hashirama was at full power vs hiruzen. Hiruzen even says "wow, strong as ever"


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## Rai (Sep 23, 2013)

ToadFlameBomb said:


> Can i PLEASE say something. Yes, Kishimoto changed his mind obviously, but ORIGINALLY, hashirama was at full power vs hiruzen. *Hiruzen even says "wow, strong as ever"*



Anime.


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## Hero (Sep 24, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> This. Except Minato and Tobi switched.



Yeah I have a hard time placing them because they both wanked each other. I also felt Minato to be stronger but was inclined to put Tobi because he's Hashirama's brother


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## Dominus (Sep 24, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> evidence is shown in how they use it, because Minato can spread his Kunai around he can travel greater distances we saw that when Minato arrived first and teleported the Juubidama



We don't know how they got to the battlefield, because nobody said that they used Hiraishin, we don't know if they had marks on the battlefield, Sasuke and Jūgo didn't arrive with the Hokage and they arrived at almost the same time as them... are you maybe saying that Sasuke's and Jūgo's speed is close to Hiraishin?
Kunai has nothing to do with how advanced their Hiraishin is, Tobirama can also place a seal on a kunai... he just hasn't thought of that because he was to busy creating the technique. And I'm pretty sure if Tobirama marks a clone it can run farther than Minato can throw a kunai, but like I've said that has nothing to do with how advanced their Hiraishin is and you have no evidence to prove what you said is true, it's all just an assumption.


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## Azula (Sep 24, 2013)

Kai said:


> What elements of hype followed Minato upon gaining Bijuu Mode?
> 
> Anything actually relative to the established most powerful characters? Fans, advocates, and their conjectures will fight to the end that something monumental has happened that shifts the top tiers around.
> 
> The power standings of the top food chain still remain as they are, in respect to the manga. The only ones that are progressively surpassing everyone else is Naruto and in all likelihood Sasuke.



obito had been established as the strongest character by then and all the hokages combined were outclassed

what is the point of saying or implying BM minato>hashirama after that? 

however minato became exponentially stronger after gaining BM


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## Van Konzen (Sep 24, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> That hype was obviously retconned. The first indication should have been the fact that Hiruzen isn't the God of Shinobi in the current canon; it's Hashirama.



Yeah and he also stripped off the GoS title from Hagoromo by that? 




αce said:


> You're missing the point. Hashirama's knowledge about Hiruzen is completely irrelevent. And it wasn't even the central part of Kai's argument. The point is that the author knows who the strongest is and chose to use that character to hype Obito's new found abilities. Ask yourself why he would use Hashirama instead of Hiruzen if the latter character is stronger.
> 
> Once again, Hashirama's knowledge doesn't matter when the author is attempting to portray something. In this case, it was to make Obito look like he was some sort of demi-god by using the strongest hokage as a comparison.
> 
> That's funny because it happened one way in the manga and you have no basis that hypothetical would have ever happened. And yes, I did get the point of your post. It was wrong.



I would agree that of those current 4 Strongest Soldier Zombies
Hashirama would be the Strongest.. Yeah sure Kishi knows who would be
the strongest of those zombies so he used Hashirama as a gauge,

but not sure though if Kishi would do the same if they are alive
and Hiruzen was still on this kick ass beard..


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## Trojan (Sep 24, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> We don't know how they got to the battlefield, *because nobody said that they used Hiraishin*, we don't know if they had marks on the *battlefield, Sasuke and Jūgo didn't arrive with the Hokage and they arrived at almost the same time as them... are you maybe saying that Sasuke's and Jūgo's speed is close to Hiraishin?*
> Kunai has nothing to do with how advanced their Hiraishin is, Tobirama can also place a seal on a kunai... he just hasn't thought of that because he was to busy creating the technique. And I'm pretty sure if Tobirama marks a clone it can run farther than Minato can throw a kunai, but like I've said that has nothing to do with how advanced their Hiraishin is and you have no evidence to prove what you said is true, it's all just an assumption.



- Hashi did. 
- So, Sasuke and Jugo's speed is almost the same and comparable to Hashi, and Tobirama's?
the same Hashi whom his fans always brought up that he outspeeded a TBB!

- it's not only the Kunai, it's the speed! 
and that's obvious anyway because of all the praise that Minato got from the FTG 
and it's his sig move, so of course kishi made him better at it.


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## Veracity (Sep 24, 2013)

Hero said:


> Yeah I have a hard time placing them because they both wanked each other. I also felt Minato to be stronger but was inclined to put Tobi because he's Hashirama's brother



Minato's BM mode is hax as hell and easily puts him at second place. Theoretically, if you apply the power boost it gave Naruto, then Minato should be untouchable without even FTG, but I dont think Kishi intends for him to be that strong. He nerfed both Hashirama's SM and both Minato's chakra modes.


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## Kai (Sep 24, 2013)

Turrin said:
			
		

> Let me pose a hypothetical scenario to you. Let's say we reverse the roles of Hiruzen and Hashirama:
> 
> Hiruzen, "He's Stronger than me"
> Hashirama, "I hate to say it ... but I agree."
> ...


I'll tell you why your hypothetical does not work.

Hashirama: *"I'll put this bluntly.* This man is stronger than me."

Any other hokage who expresses what Hashirama stated would be something that is already blunt and blatant to the readers. How blunt does one have to be to have such a profound effect in measuring another character's power?

If Hiruzen stated Juubi Jin was stronger than he was, it would be a reaction of common knowledge. For Hashirama to "put it bluntly", it effectively establishes Obito as the most powerful shinobi on the field.

Sure, anyone can say someone else is stronger than they are, but the most powerful of the hokages to put it so bluntly? That brings in a whole new perspective not available to anyone lesser in standing.



Rocky said:


> Mokuton is what Kabuto meant by "past prime." Also, Madara wasn't even sure he could pull of Mokuton when he was first revived, thus him wanting to "try Justu out."
> 
> You also made it sound like Madara actually trained in his old age. The man was on life support for Christ sakes.


Madara seeked out Nagato and implanted his eyes within the boy's sockets. He also summoned the Gedo Mazo from the moon and was cultivating Hashirama's cells for years in the form of Zetsus. Obviously these are achievements of a man who has yet to fall back on life support, which he only resorted to after summoning the life support itself from the moon in the final days of his life.

You're telling me he never used a Mokuton in his lifetime? All characters who have integrated Hashi's cells within their bodies have some variation of Mokuton, from Danzo to Zetsu to Obito to Yamato, etc.

At best, Kabuto may have improved the efficiency of Madara's Mokuton, not literally grant him the ability.


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## Jagger (Sep 24, 2013)

I think what Rocky means is that Madara never used Mokuton in his original timeline in a battlefield or for the purpose to kill someone else. He definitely used Mokuton before as he used Hashirama's cells to grow a gigantic flower and create the white zetsu. What Madara meant back then is that he wanted to test a 'jutsu' that was Jukai Koutan that is a ninjutsu for the sole purpose of overwhelming someone. Not to cultivate sentinent beings.

Also, the sole reason of Madara needing Hashirama's Sennin powers is to subdue Juubito with some kind of seal that probably requires natural energy of some sort. That much is obvious.


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## Turrin (Sep 24, 2013)

Kai said:


> I'll tell you why your hypothetical does not work.
> 
> Hashirama: *"I'll put this bluntly.* This man is stronger than me."
> 
> ...


It was blunt and blatant to me that Obito was stronger than Hashirama the moment he became the Juubi Jin even w/o that statement, because well he's the fricken Juubi Jin.



> How blunt does one have to be to have such a profound effect in measuring another character's power?
> 
> If Hiruzen stated Juubi Jin was stronger than he was, it would be a reaction of common knowledge. For Hashirama to "put it bluntly", it effectively establishes Obito as the most powerful shinobi on the field.
> 
> Sure, anyone can say someone else is stronger than they are, but the most powerful of the hokages to put it so bluntly? That brings in a whole new perspective not available to anyone lesser in standing.


You seem to be employing some circular logic here to me. Your using Hashirama's statement to assert he's the strongest Hokage, but than using the premise that Hashirama's the strongest Hokage to support that the statement can be used this way. To me this creates a logical fallacy, when in reality what's going on is exactly what I said in my prior post; Hashirama admitting he's weaker has the most impact because he's the character currently on the battlefield who received the most recent biggest display of hype, regardless of whether he's really the strongest on the battlefield or strongest hokage, his statement would hold the most weight due to this fact.


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## Trojan (Sep 24, 2013)

Hashi does not even know anything about the others. the only things he knows about are
Tobirama, EMS Madara, and kid Hiruzen when he was 7 years old or around that. 

it's the same nonsense like when Sakure thought she's at the same level as KCM Naruto, and EMS Sasuke.
Unless you think it's true of course.

luck of knowledge


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Sep 24, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> *We don't know how they got to the battlefield, *because nobody said that they used Hiraishin, we don't know if they had marks on the battlefield, Sasuke and Jūgo didn't arrive with the Hokage and they arrived at almost the same time as them... are you maybe saying that Sasuke's and Jūgo's speed is close to Hiraishin?
> Kunai has nothing to do with how advanced their Hiraishin is, Tobirama can also place a seal on a kunai... he just hasn't thought of that because he was to busy creating the technique. And I'm pretty sure if Tobirama marks a clone it can run farther than Minato can throw a kunai, but like I've said that has nothing to do with how advanced their Hiraishin is and you have no evidence to prove what you said is true, it's all just an assumption.



1). Are you going to keep playing stupid because tobirama clearly says "May shushin pales in comparison to yours" explaining that they all used shushin to get to the battle thus why Minato arrived first ahead of the other 3 due to his physical speed/reflexes ebind on par with v2 riakage, thus his shushin is crazy fast...

2). Just face it, tobirama's ability with even Level 1 Hirahsin pales in comparison to minato's who uses weapons to increase his area of movement.as well as being able to teleport way moer then ONE thing at a time like tobirama...
Not to mention level 2 which Minato uses to move to moving Kunai he throws or Level 3 to use a time space barrier to teleport things without placing a seal on them or touching them...
All of which tobirama cannot even do...

So why even compare the two? Minato's use of the Hiraishin is as far above tobirama's as the heavens are above the earth...

3). You do realize that Minato threw  kunai to the sea within a couple seconds right!!! Thus, was able to teleport the Bijuudama he sucked up with his time space barrier to that Kunai Tag he just threw a couple seconds earlier...

Meaning the speed and distance that Minato can chuck a Kunai far exceeds the movements of a tobirama Clone by far LMAO... So there is no reason to even compare the two...

Pretty much, it is just BIAS tobirama fans trying to argue that tobirama can acutally compete with Minato and even surpass him as a shinobi when that is just impossible with his level of physical speed/reflexes, Limited hirashin, low level water jutsu, and edo tensai he has never even shown he can do...
Lol, Tobirama cannot even get past V1 raikage with such pathetic skills much less easily own v2 riakage while having to take on Killer B at the same time too...

Oh yea and the Hokage list is this IMO...

#1.) Minato... Base or KCM.Bijuu mode Kyuubi power... At Base, not one of the kage's can even touch him while all he has to do is TOUCH them or throw a Kunai Tag right by them to speed blitz them at will and win... Too much for anyone other then a Juubi JINK or an edo to compete with, but due to the highest level of instant regeneration an edo has... One shotting with speed blitz will be impossible although the use of seals ot seal an edo is something very likely Minato has with his sela knowledge....
#2). hashirama for Obvious reason... Does not have much speed at all, but has ninetails level chakra coupled with very large scale attacks that can allow him to own anyone he can actually hit while being able to defend againsgt their attacks...
#3). DANZOU! DO not Bitch, I found it hard to have Hashirama and even Minato beat him with the use of Izanagi for 10 minutes of immortality, powerful wind jutsu, Mokuton use, 10 SG's and Shisui's Kotoamatsukami for Mind control one time in battle if it lands... Shisui's eye alone can allow him to beat pretty much ANYONE if used right...
#4). Tobirama for Obvious reasons! he is not quite top 3 material, but can defeat hiruzen and tsunade Obviously...
#5). I am going to say Tsunade becuase of her geneis rebirth/100 jutsu that will alow her to take ANY damage Hiruzen can throw at her coupled with her brute strength and taijutsu that I think will be too much for hiruzen to take in his older age...
#6). Hiruzen sarutobi for obvious reasons! He has shown pretty much nothing, but overrated skills, abilities while not even showing that he can beat tsunade without having to resort to shiki fuujin if that would even work becuase getting close to tsunade is a bad idea...


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## Kai (Sep 24, 2013)

Turrin said:


> It was blunt and blatant to me that Obito was stronger than Hashirama the moment he became the Juubi Jin even w/o that statement, because well he's the fricken Juubi Jin.


Kishimoto had the strongest Hokage and shinobi reinforce that fact to the readers, a very clear and effective rhetorical device in introducing the gravity of Obito's new power. _One that transcends even the pinnacle of the hokage._



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> You seem to be employing some circular logic here to me. Your using Hashirama's statement to assert he's the strongest Hokage, but than using the premise that Hashirama's the strongest Hokage to support that the statement can be used this way. To me this creates a logical fallacy, when in reality what's going on is exactly what I said in my prior post; Hashirama admitting he's weaker has the most impact because he's the character currently on the battlefield who received the most recent biggest display of hype, regardless of whether he's really the strongest on the battlefield or strongest hokage, his statement would hold the most weight due to this fact.


Not at all, your idea of circular logic is more appropriately applied to your own reasoning that follows mine.

You say Hashirama's statement holds the most impact only because he's had the most recent big display of hype, regardless if he is the strongest or not, but he has had display precisely because he is the most powerful of all the Hokage. Why would Hashirama even be in a position to make such an impact in the first place stating, "I'll put this bluntly. This man is stronger than me"  if he wasn't the most powerful of the Hokages?

Kishi pretty explicitly put Hashirama in the preeminent position to further hype the Juubi Jin even beyond that level. I also struggle heavily to agree with the idea that any of Hashirama's hype is merely "recent display" given the momentum behind his name throughout the entire war. This is without even going into how he has been standing out among his Hokage colleagues, i.e defying the bind of Edo Tensei and being stated by Orochimaru to be "an enigma" among them as an example. A phenomenon like this is completely different than gauging the power between shinobi's jutsu. It wasn't even a jutsu, he just defied it with willpower or some inherent force. This situation quite literally reflects Hashirama's power level separate to that of the other hokage beside him, which is better than comparing jutsu because people can argue jutsu vs. jutsu all day with their own internal simulations.


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## Dominus (Sep 24, 2013)

Elia said:


> - Hashi did.



He suggested that, it doesn't mean they used it.



> - So, Sasuke and Jugo's speed is almost the same and comparable to Hashi, and Tobirama's?



It's more possible that they are around the same speed than Sasuke and Jugo being as fast as Hiraishin.



> - it's not only the Kunai, it's the speed!
> and that's obvious anyway because of all the praise that Minato got from the FTG
> and it's his sig move, so of course kishi made him better at it.



Any proof that his Hiraishin is faster or is this one more of your assumptions?



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> 1). Are you going to keep playing stupid because tobirama clearly says "May shushin pales in comparison to yours" explaining that they all used shushin to get to the battle



I know that, your fellow Minato fanboys are the ones who said that they used Hiraishin to get to the battlefield.

I'm sorry I don't have time to read the rest of your nonsense.


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## Turrin (Sep 24, 2013)

Kai said:


> Kishimoto had the strongest Hokage and shinobi reinforce that fact to the readers, a very clear and effective rhetorical device in introducing the gravity of Obito's new power. _One that transcends even the pinnacle of the hokage._


The point that Obito ascended beyond the level of the Hokage (at least raw power wise) was already reinforced when he easily destroyed the barrier that all 4 Hokages combined power was maintaining. 



> You say Hashirama's statement holds the most impact only because he's had the most recent big display of hype, regardless if he is the strongest or not, but he has had display precisely because he is the most powerful of all the Hokage.


You'd be right if, it was indeed a fact that Hashirama is the strongest Hokage. However that is not the case. Heck the whole reason you asserted your argument based around Hashirama's statement was to bolster the argument for Hashirama being the strongest, which would not be necessary if it was a fact.

The reason your argument is circular is because it reads as follows:

You can tell Hashirama is the strongest Hokage, from his statement , which is proof of  Hashirama being the strongest, because Hashirama is the strongest. 

Your starting with a presupposition that; Hashirama is the strongest. The proof your provide to support that statement, only works if we already assume Hashirama is the strongest. 



> Why would Hashirama even be in a position to make such an impact in the first place stating, "I'll put this bluntly. This man is stronger than me" if he wasn't the most powerful of the Hokages?


Because he was the person most recently hyped. Even if Kishi was intending Prime Hiruzen to be more powerful than Hashirama a statement from him would be meaningless from fans despite what Kishi personally feels about his strength, since he hadn't been hyped in a while,. Just like it would be the same case if at the start of Part II before Hashirama got his hype, someone was called stronger than him. 



> Kishi pretty explicitly put Hashirama in the preeminent position to further hype the Juubi Jin even beyond that level.


Yes, but the level is what Hashirama displayed at the VOTE, not necessarily beyond the level of any Hokage. If he wanted Hashirama's statement to carry that weight, he could have easily had Hiruzen, Minato, Orochimaru, Sasuke, etc.... state Hashirama is the strongest Hokage point blank, before than. Kishi didn't do that. So all we can say is that Hashirama is hyping Obito beyond his level, which may or may not be beyond the levels of the other Hokage.



> I also struggle heavily to agree with the idea that any of Hashirama's hype is merely "recent display" given the momentum behind his name throughout the entire war.


Well maybe hype isn't the right word by itself. Perhaps I should say he is the Hokage who has mostly recently backed up his hype with feats. In essence we got a tangible sense of how godly stronger Hashirama is via the VOTE flashback. While the other Hokages may have hype, they do no have that tangible sense of having that hype backed up by feats. Heck that's the whole reason why people believe Hiruzen has been retecon'd because he has yet to back up his hype with feats.

So since Hashirama has the tangible sense to his hype via his recent display, he is the most ideal vehicle to use to hype Obito, regardless of whether he actually is the strongest or not.



> This is without even going into how he has been standing out among his Hokage colleagues,


Kai i'm only speaking towards finding your initial argument flawed. I agree that there is a-lot of things that lean towards Hashirama being the strongest and not Hiruzen



> i.e defying the bind of Edo Tensei and being stated by Orochimaru to be "an enigma" among them as an example. A phenomenon like this is completely different than gauging the power between shinobi's jutsu. It wasn't even a jutsu, he just defied it with willpower or some inherent force. This situation quite literally reflects Hashirama's power level separate to that of the other hokage beside him, which is better than comparing jutsu because people can argue jutsu vs. jutsu all day with their own internal simulations.


I really don't think this argument proves anything in terms of comparing Hashirama and Hiruzen. Hashirama's muscling through Orochimaru's control simply proves Hashirama's strength of chakra excels Hiruzens. Which to me is stating the obvious, considering Hashirama is the man with the magic DNA/Chakra. The whole reason he's been given all of his accolades/titles/hype is the fact that he has this DNA/Chakra that grants him insane raw power. Hiruzen on the other hand is indicated in the manga to have received his title of "God of Shinobi" and "strongest hokage" due to his intelligence and  the amount of Jutsu he had knowledge/mastery off. 

So the two Hokages are suppose to specialize in totally different areas. In Hashirama's case he's all about raw power, so breaking Edo Tensei being a feat only he could do makes sense. While in Hiruzen's case breaking Edo Tensei at-least by out muscling it really doesn't make sense, even by the standards of his Part I Hype.

Additionally something I don't seen anyone considering and this applies to all of your arguments is this isn't even Prime Hiruzen, it's still Old Hiruzen. So to expect the Old Hiruzen out muscle Hashirama in strength of chakra really strays from Hiruzen's hype.


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## Veracity (Sep 24, 2013)

Kai said:


> Kishimoto had the strongest Hokage and shinobi reinforce that fact to the readers, a very clear and effective rhetorical device in introducing the gravity of Obito's new power. _One that transcends even the pinnacle of the hokage._
> 
> 
> Not at all, your idea of circular logic is more appropriately applied to your own reasoning that follows mine.
> ...



Rep+ thank you. Kishi makes it abnormally obvious that Hashirama is the strongest Hokage.         He called him the "god of Shinobi" and talked about his power as if it was a Legend. The ninja basically started the ninja world, and helped establish the greatest ninja villege. Then Kishi  introduced the "strongest Uchiha" and had him casually solo the 5 Kage, after showing that each Kage was almost the peak of each respective villege. Then he showed that EMS Madara+ Kurama(monster with highest destructive capability at the time) were still inferior to Hashirama, after he randomly gave him SM. Which few could master. His wood style( which he created and is the only ninja that can do it without being enhanced) stems from the tree of life, the source if god like power. & he can control all tailed beasts. It's obvious that Kishi holds Hashirama with higher regard then basically any other protagonist. Why would he have Hashirama say his comment towards Obito? He obviously intended to make their deaths inevitable, because the STRONGEST ninja admitted inferiority. If not, he could have just had Sasuke or Tobirama eat, they both are rather powerful.


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## ReverseZero12 (Sep 25, 2013)

It should be obvious that Hashirama is the strongest hokage as out of all the hokages as he has displayed the best feats.


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## LeafShinobi (Dec 29, 2013)

1Hashirama
2Minato
3Tobirama
4Hiruzen
5Tsunade


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## ARGUS (Dec 29, 2013)

Hashirama shits on every kage... He's in a league of his own 
1 Hashirama 
2 Minato 
3 Tobirama 
4 Tsunade/Hiruzen 
5 Hiruzen/Tsunade


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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2013)

ToadFlameBomb said:


> All that can be said is that the 4 strongest Kage period are the 1st 4 hokages. Not a single other kage from any village can beat shodaime, nindaime, sandaime, or yondaime hokage


I heavily disagree w/ this; Mu, Onoki, and Nindaime Mizukage most certainly can defeat Tobirama and Base Minato. Tons of Kages can beat Hiruzen, based on his so far lack luster display. 

The only Hokages that pretty much no other Kage can beat are Edo Minato and Hashirama.


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## Risyth (Dec 29, 2013)

Please, let's not put Hiruzen above any version of Minato.


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