# Haku vs Hiruzen



## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

*Location:* Orochimaru vs Hiruzen
*Distance:* 10 meters


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

Hiruzen puts him in a Genjutsu and swarms him with giant Shuriken.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Hiruzen puts him in a Genjutsu and swarms him with giant Shuriken.



Hiruzen doesn't IC use genjutsu very quickly, if at all. And I'm arguing that once Haku's mirrors go up, he can successfully knock Hiruzen out with senbon due to his anatomical knowledge. 

Hiruzen's has fairly dull reflexes, and naturally, I'm maintaining that Haku's real speed in the mirrors was held back in part one, as reacting to Gai shows that Haku was very easily faster than KN1.

Plus Zabuza hyped Haku to be above himself or Kakashi, and Sasuke, Zabuza, Naruto, etc. all maintained that Haku had been holding back. So I think Haku can believably take the Hokage down.

Dat kekkei genkai.​


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2013)

Hiruzen baby shakes Haku with absolute ease. He's a Kage Haku was taken out by KN0 Wave Arc Naruto, let's try and use some common sense.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Hiruzen baby shakes Haku with absolute ease. He's a Kage Haku was taken out by KN0 Wave Arc Naruto, let's try and use some common sense.



Common sense indicates that Haku was holding back, given that Zabuza, Sasuke, and Naruto said so. Plus Gai & Lee are faster than KN0, so Haku cleanly reacting to them later proves as much.

Haku was also hyped to be above the elite Jōnin level that Kakashi and Zabuza originally defined,  so that would make Haku―wait for it―somewhere in the range of Kage level. 

Dat common sense is flowing out from me.​


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Hiruzen doesn't IC use genjutsu very quickly, if at all. And I'm arguing that once Haku's mirrors go up, he can successfully knock Hiruzen out with senbon due to his anatomical knowledge.




Or Hiruzen didn't deem Genjutsu a good option against Orochimaru, a fellow tier 5.




> Hiruzen's has fairly dull reflexes, and naturally, I'm maintaining that Haku's real speed in the mirrors was held back in part one, as reacting to Gai shows that Haku was very easily faster than KN1.




I don't think it was eve stated that Haku purposely went slower so Naruto could grab him. He just avoided their vitals. Bloodlusted KN0's feats of tagging Haku make him faster than Lee, and probably Gai's dynamic entry speed.


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

Databook doesn't paint a very pretty picture for Haku.
I also feel pretty confident that Zabuza was taking into consideration Haku's potential. 
Reacting to Gai is her best feat, right? Well that's a jonin level feat. So the hokage cracks her skull.



Rocky said:


> He just avoided their vitals. Bloodlusted KN0's feats of tagging Haku make him faster than Lee, and probably Gai's dynamic entry speed.



It was made clear in Part 1 that the chasm between low chunin and high chunin speed is massive.
If KN1 Naruto is jonin level, he is massively faster than Lee. Personally, I believe KN1-KN3 Pre-Skip = Mid Jonin, KN1-KN3 Post-Skip = Mid Kage, and KN4-KN6 = High Kage


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> > I don't think it was eve stated that Haku purposely went slower so Naruto could grab him. He just avoided their vitals. Bloodlusted KN0's feats of tagging Haku make him faster than Lee, and probably Gai's dynamic entry speed.


It was heavily implied he held back there whole fight, and he outright stated he couldn't kill this kid. He proceeded to eat the Kn0 punch and then when he got serious(when Zabuza's life was on the line) he went and intercepted Kakashi mid Raikiri, in time enough to even grab his arm, from his position with Naruto.

Him saying "I can't kill this kid Zabuza did not mean he couldn't beat Naruto combat wise, but saw him as too much of a good soul to kill with no reason.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 19, 2013)

Haku uses Makyou Hyoushou to try to take advantage of the speed difference with a blitz. Hiruzen casually reacts and breaks his neck with the Kongou Nyoi.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Common sense indicates that Haku was holding back, given that Zabuza, Sasuke, and Naruto said so. Plus Gai & Lee are faster than KN0, so Haku cleanly reacting to them later proves as much.
> 
> Haku was also hyped to be above the elite Jōnin level that Kakashi and Zabuza originally defined,  so that would make Haku―wait for it―somewhere in the range of Kage level.
> 
> Dat common sense is flowing out from me.​


Haku held back a bit in the beginning, but wasn't holding back when KN0 Naruto was about to kill him. The reason he got blitz'd is because his Ice Mirrors greatly drain him and he runs out of steam quickly hence getting dominated by KN0 Naruto. So at the very beginning of the battle he might be somewhat fast and not get totally blitz'd by KN0 Naruto, but he still has no way to take down KN0 Naruto as Kyuubi chakra Roar would deflect his needles and regen any injury Haku somehow manages to deal. So ultimately KN0 Naruto would still win even against a fresh Haku. But heck even if we give Haku the benefit of the doubt and he managed to somehow defeat KN0 Naruto, that would place him somewhere around Chuunin level. Were talking about a fricken Kage here, Haku has no chance whatsoever.

Oh and if you want to talk Part I hype of Hiruzen vs Haku, we'll good luck with that. At best Haku's hype places him as stronger than Wave Arc Kakashi, which doesn't even make him Kage level as any Kage would own Part I out of shape Kakashi with absolute ease. Meanwhile Hiruzen is hyped as the strongest of the 5 Kage, equal to Orochimaru in the Fan-book, & that's just if were talking Old Hiruzen, if we're talking prime he's hype as stronger than Hashirama for fucks sake. Do I think this hype seems accurate given current feats, no I don't, but I don't think Haku's hype is accurate ether. Hell I have to double check this, but I think in the Viz translation Haku isn't even claimed as stronger than Zabuza/Kakashi.

So in no world is Haku stronger than Hiruzen, nor does the author ever give the impression that he could be, even if we took the most conservative estimate of Hiruzen's hype and the most ridiculous estimate of Haku's.


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2013)

I agree that Hiruzen wins here, as he is a Kage, and Hokage at that who fended off from Oro with ET. But Haku was portrayed to be > Zabuza and just about up there with Kakashi. I don't see Hiruzen fodder stomping pt. 1 Kakashi, so I don't see Haku being completely raped.


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## Winchester Gospel (Jul 19, 2013)

Haku was an elite chūnin who was bumped up to the jōnin level with the rest of the teenage characters as a result of post-war inflation at best. His databook scores were only marginally better than the cream of the crop fighters from the genin examination and below the individual members of the Sound Four who nearly killed them, all while Hiruzen was ranked first in the databook, first amongst his village, first amongst the previous Hokage, and first amongst the five Kage at the time.

While Zabuza left to fend with the real threat on the field in Kakashi, Haku's last battle had him matched with fellow children, where he hinted desperation against Sasuke's Sharingan before admitting defeat to tailless Kyūbi Naruto. His slightly holding back along with his master's baseless and gratuitous faith in his bloodline abilities aren't enough to propel him to the level of the man that was fighting with Orochimaru - someone well beyond the level of Zabuza and Kakashi.

The idea that Hiruzen will somehow be blitzed by makyō hyōshō because it showed impressive speed against wholly inferior opponents is frighteningly similar to the once semi-popular notion that Part I Lee had surpassed the strongest in all of Konoha simply because an elderly man couldn't possibly keep up with the 'swooshing' noise he made once he took off his weights. Lee, of course, didn't consider himself worthy of being a Kage at the time, and was happy if he could beat Neji.


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## Kaiser (Jul 19, 2013)

Hiruzen's fire technique should be capable to destroy crystal mirrors. He said Sasuke's fire wasn't strong enough, which means a stronger fire could destroy it


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 19, 2013)

Hiruzen gets power scaled up enough to react my, *cough*, Haku's movements and uses Katon to demolish the mirrors and then catch me with some large shruiken Kage Bunshin.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Haku uses Makyou Hyoushou to try to take advantage of the speed difference with a blitz. Hiruzen casually reacts and breaks his neck with the Kongou Nyoi.



Pretty much. 

Haku lost to wave arc Sasuke in a taijutsu struggle.

Hiruzen wrecks him so hard.


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## ImSerious (Jul 19, 2013)

hiruzen blitzes with suriken.


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## Veracity (Jul 19, 2013)

Wasn't it Haku who was pressured by PTS Sasuke? This is the worst rape I have ever read.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 19, 2013)

Enma smashes the ice mirrors and then Haku catches a Shuriken to the forehead.


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## Sans (Jul 19, 2013)

In Strategos signature, he is the cat and this thread's response is the sloth.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> In Strategos signature, he is the cat and this thread's response is the sloth.



... y-you guys want to sex me?


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## Sans (Jul 19, 2013)

That's not how I take that GIF at all. 

But okay.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

Play the music with it.


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## Shiny (Jul 19, 2013)

Hiruzen cubstomp


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## joshhookway (Jul 19, 2013)

Haku got killed by a genin while Hiruzen beat too Kages at the same time.

Haku won't be dodging those shurikens


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

He can block shuriken at the very least.


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## Bonly (Jul 19, 2013)

Haku lost in speed to Sasuke in CQC and even lost sight on Sasuke after Sasuke used a Shunshin. Unless Hiruzen is slower then Wave arc Sasuke, Hiruzen should blitz Haku and take him out.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 20, 2013)

While not treating Sasuke like an equal opponent, Haku lost sight of Sasuke amidst the large obstruction of his own jutsu. Sasuke then proceeded to close on him with shruikenjutsu and then outmaneuver him in taijutsu, which Haku is very weak at at. Of course, Sasuke's shruiken and taijutsu combos managed to nearly get the bells off a similarly serious Kakashi (and had Sasuke been aiming to kill, there would have been a kunai in Kakashi's gut) prior to enhancing his speed, and proceeded to burn off the face of a similarly serious Orochimaru later once he had the Sharingan. And, also prior to enhancing his speed, occupy two Chunin who were apparently skilled enough to have their own reputation and enjoy Zabuza's confidence.

In fact, had Haku's opening Shunshin, which tripped Sasuke, and left him scrambling to defend himself, been accompanied with the high speed and precision senbon targeting that surprised even Kakashi with his Sharingan, Sasuke would have OHKO'd. But Haku was not trying to kill Sasuke. He was, at that point, merely testing him. And had an active aversion to killing him. So yeah, Haku's DB speed score of a 4 is merited.


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## Veracity (Jul 20, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> Haku lost to wave arc Sasuke in a taijutsu struggle.
> 
> Hiruzen wrecks him so hard.





SubtleObscurantist said:


> While not treating Sasuke like an equal opponent, Haku lost sight of Sasuke amidst the large obstruction of his own jutsu. Sasuke then proceeded to close on him with shruikenjutsu and then outmaneuver him in taijutsu, which Haku is very weak at at. Of course, Sasuke's shruiken and taijutsu combos managed to nearly get the bells off a similarly serious Kakashi (and had Sasuke been aiming to kill, there would have been a kunai in Kakashi's gut) prior to enhancing his speed, and proceeded to burn off the face of a similarly serious Orochimaru later once he had the Sharingan. And, also prior to enhancing his speed, occupy two Chunin who were apparently skilled enough to have their own reputation and enjoy Zabuza's confidence.
> 
> In fact, had Haku's opening Shunshin, which tripped Sasuke, and left him scrambling to defend himself, been accompanied with the high speed and precision senbon targeting that surprised even Kakashi with his Sharingan, Sasuke would have OHKO'd. But Haku was not trying to kill Sasuke. He was, at that point, merely testing him. And had an active aversion to killing him. So yeah, Haku's DB speed score of a 4 is merited.



What makes you think Oro or Kakahi were even remotely serious?


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 20, 2013)

Enma staff destroys the mirrors, base Lee reacted to his blitz in part 2, and KN0 Naruto blitzed him.

Hiruzen played with the Senju brothers, disarmed healthy Orochimaru wielding Kusanagi, and pushed Kurama out of a village.

I've heard, seen, and projectile vomited enough.

Hirzuen summons a clone, feints Haku with a katon and smacks him in the head with expanded staff, shattering his cranium resulting in a series of hemorrhages, instantly killing him. Aside from obviously taking his head clean off his body. 

1 star thread.


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## BrokenBonds (Jul 20, 2013)

... Is this thread serious.

Hiruzen stomps 10/10 with absolute ease... I'm not sure if I should neg the OP. I hope this thread gets locked.


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## Sans (Jul 20, 2013)

You should definitely neg the OP.


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## Null (Jul 20, 2013)

The 3rd curbstomps this trap


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## Punished Pathos (Jul 20, 2013)

Hiruzen blitzes Haku and slaps him in the back of the head with a bombtag.

lol at Hirzuen having dull reflexes.
He defeated Orochimaru in CQC and the Edo Hokage duo.


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## Kai (Jul 20, 2013)

Hiruzen slaps exploding tags on Haku within moments of the battle starting, snaps his fingers, and game over.


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## LostSelf (Jul 20, 2013)

And once again, part two Haku's feats were just for decoration.

Haku can win, if he surprises Hiruzen with a well placed senbon. But portrayal wise and featwise, Hiruzen is above him. Haku loses.

But not because "Naruto beat a part one Haku".


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## joshhookway (Jul 20, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He can block shuriken at the very least.


Hiruzen's shurikens aren't normal shurikens.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 20, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> What makes you think Oro or Kakahi were even remotely serious?



They weren't. That's my point. But they weren't letting themselves get hit. They were testing Sasuke. Just like Haku was.


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## Genma1998 (Jul 20, 2013)

Haku is nowhere near Kage level. Hiruzen stomps


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## FlashYoruichi (Jul 20, 2013)

What did poor Haku do to have that old man balls slapping against his chin


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## Seiji (Jul 20, 2013)

Sandaime Hokage, Master of the legendary Sannin, the Professor, strongest kage when he was alive during p1, GoS formerly vs someone who was shitting his pants against kno Naruto. 

Hiruzen makes Haku his bitch.


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## Magician (Jul 20, 2013)

What were you smoking, OP?


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## Darth (Jul 20, 2013)

Strat wtf is this?

Go get smothered to death by a gang of japanese escorts plskthxbye


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## Sadgoob (Jul 20, 2013)

Darth said:


> Strat wtf is this?
> 
> Go get smothered to death by a gang of japanese escorts plskthxbye


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## Sans (Jul 20, 2013)

Strategos creating this thread: 

Response it creates:


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## Punished Pathos (Jul 20, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> And once again, part two Haku's feats were just for decoration.
> 
> Haku can win, if he surprises Hiruzen with a well placed senbon. But portrayal wise and featwise, Hiruzen is above him. Haku loses.
> 
> But not because "Naruto beat a part one Haku".



Hiruzen's battle armor can block senbon.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> ... y-you guys want to sex me?



Swoosh~ **


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## crystalblade13 (Jul 21, 2013)

what the fuck is this?

hiruzen godstomps, zero difficulty.

this thread makes me want to neg someone.


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## Shizune (Jul 21, 2013)

Hiruzen's shuriken would skewer Haku.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 21, 2013)

Fact: Hiruzen has _Mole/Moguro no jutsu._

yeah, I said it...a nd Kisame has _Suijinheki _too! Wut now, huh!?


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## Sasori my man (Jul 21, 2013)

Just don't think Haku has the experience/intent to kill to take down Hiruzen with his mirrors. Don't even think Enma would even have to be brought into this fight, a swarm of shiruken would be the last thing Haku sees


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## Mithos (Jul 21, 2013)

This is probably the worst rape-thread I've ever seen on this forum. 

Hiruzen wins, no difficulty.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 22, 2013)

I am going to go ahead and say this. Hiruzen's position was maintained on prestige and authority alone. He was not the strongest shinobi in the leaf, and had been passed over a number of times as he aged. The thing is, you don't actually have to be the "strongest", but simply the "most qualified to lead".

Naruto is multitudes stronger than tsunade, BUT he has not been elected. Fame is far more important than actual strength, as the kage usually don't end up fighting in the wars as much. They are generals, not grunts.

So, in the match, I will say this, haku's arsenal is VERY impressive, and from what hiruzen has shown, Makyou Kosho is superior to what he's got. Intent to kill, haku busting it out is going to DESTROY hiruzen. Especially if he were to use a kunai instead of the senbon, but since he didn't often use them I will leave them out.

Hiruzen's physical stats are piddly and weak, obviously because all that smoking aged him like no other. I don't see him keeping up with haku's speed at all because he has no speed feats.

My take on it. Sorry, I don't have a hard on for titles.
Hiruzen was hardly ever the strongest in konoha. Even when he died, danzo was much stronger in showings than what we have seen. Hiruzen was a technician, but that counts for little when you don't have the juice to power it.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 22, 2013)

> Hiruzen's physical stats are piddly and weak, obviously because all that smoking aged him like no other. I don't see him keeping up with haku's speed at all because he has no speed feats.


Wielding a staff that has the weight and power to send the 9 tails out of a village requires a decent amount of physical stats.

As does disarming a younger, immortal, snake-muscled Orochimaru wielding a legendary sword, with said Kurama plowing staff. 

The man should probably be in a wheelchair by that age. The advanced scarring, years of smoking and battle would no doubt disable most humans.

Hiruzen had stopped fighting around the time that Minato took over as Hokage, that was the entire point of the scene where he puts on his Samurai armor when Minato is missing. He probably hadn't been in battle for years even at that time. 13 years later, the elderly man takes his robe off once again revealing his Samurai armor and shits on Orochimaru and his immortal hokage predecessors. At what point did you decide that feat alone wasn't enough to warrant an incredible physique?

Let Haku smoke for his entire life, go through decades of super ninja battles and wars, stop fighting, exercising, and using his body at all in any combat exercise for a decade and a half- then at age 69 decide to suddenly fight Orochimaru and the first two hokages. If he does well, that is, ends up sealing the hokages and disabling the source of Orochimaru's power by remaining alive with a sword shoved in his back, don't forget to say how shitty his physical stats were.


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Wielding a staff that has the weight and power to send the 9 tails out of a village requires a decent amount of physical stats.




That was anime filler. It never actually happened in canon.


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## korykal (Jul 22, 2013)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> I am going to go ahead and say this. Hiruzen's position was maintained on prestige and authority alone. He was not the strongest shinobi in the leaf, and had been passed over a number of times as he aged. The thing is, you don't actually have to be the "strongest", but simply the "most qualified to lead".
> 
> Naruto is multitudes stronger than tsunade, BUT he has not been elected. Fame is far more important than actual strength, as the kage usually don't end up fighting in the wars as much. They are generals, not grunts.
> 
> ...



You might be right on Hiruzen not being the best in town in his later years and about him keeping the role because of experience. But that doesn't prove anything in this case .

In his fight with oro and his endos ( meaning his old self )  he showed enough feats that would be very useful in this fight to say the least .
High level katons for Haku's ice constructs . Doton's that could stop needles  Clones to draw some fire until he can get his justu's going. Decent taijutsu feats against 2 enemies so he can pun some tags on Haku after he brakes his mirrors .
... I don't see the need for the monkey summon at all .


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That was anime filler. It never actually happened in canon.


In the manga, Kurama was pushed out of the village by a group of ninjas led by the 3rd Hokage. 

In the anime, all they did was fill in the obvious that the only one capable of physically moving the beast out of the village was the expansion of his staff. I actually never saw the anime portrayal of that chapter, but I, like those producers, and like the producers of the video game, intelligently assumed Hiruzen's staff was the reason why Kurama was forced out of the village. It expands to sizes unknown, it clashed with a weapon that is renown for it's absurd cutting efficiency, it destroyed Mokuton branches effortlessly, and it's been described by Enma as diamond-hard.

The fact that he was successfully fighting the 9 tails at all means the staff was effective in some way. That way being striking Kurama with it. If it wasn't effective in at least pushing him back upon striking, how did Hiruzen survive? 

The entire point behind that rant was to prove Hiruzen's physique was impressive then and later when he died because he successfully wielded a weapon that combated Kurama, a super powerful beast, and withstood strikes from Kusanagi wielded by a younger, snake-muscled Orochimaru. You have to be powerful and enduring to wield a weapon of that level, at that age.


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