# Who can Itachi blitz?



## Nikushimi (Dec 7, 2013)

​


Who's the fastest friend Itachi can attack at the following ranges:

1m
5m
10m
15m

Itachi is in peak physical condition with good eyesight. Everyone knows it's coming. Any manner of reaction is fair game, but participants actually have to protect themselves from the attack in some way (that means someone like Juubito or the 3rd Raikage isn't allowed to just stand there and tank).


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## IchLiebe (Dec 7, 2013)

1m- He could blitz Juubi jin Obito but the king doesn't need bitch blood on his hands. Minato would also get blitzed.

5m- Same as above

10m- Same as above

15m- Same as above

Itachi blitzes the Narutoverse .


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## Rain (Dec 7, 2013)

Damn, this is the highest quality opening post i've seen in a long time


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## Turrin (Dec 7, 2013)

Kakashi (4.5 + Sharingan) when fighting Hidan even at point blank range (3.5), could not simply blitz him.
Asuma (4.5 in speed, maybe slight less as Edo) when fighting Choji (2)  at point blank range
Gai and Lee (both probably having a 5) when fighting Haku (4 maybe slightlyless as an edo) couldn't blitz at point blank range
etc...

These examples demonstrate that the speed gap between two characters has to be simply massive or the character needs to augment their speed w/ something like Raiton no Yoroi, Bijuu Chakra, S-T Jutsu, Gates, Senjutsu, and maybe i'm forgetting a few other things, but the picture is clear.

Itachi is fast, but he doesn't have any of these tools at his disposal, so the speed gap needs to be absolutely massive for him to blitz someone. Given how Haku w/ his 4 in speed (possibly lowered as a Tensei) was not blitz'd by Gai & Lee w/ Gai who should at least have comparable speed to Itachi, if not superior depending on the form of Itachi were talking about (whether he's sick or dying, etc..) we can expect that Itachi probably isn't blitzing someone w/ a 4 or higher in speed. Even 3.5 is probably debatable depending on their CQC skill. So yeah he's not blitzing many people in the sense that he covers the distance before they are able to do anything or put up a guard to block the attack. 

That's why Blitz's like that just don't happen in the manga unless it's fodder or their is something greatly augmenting someone's speed or greatly impairing the other person's speed.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

He blitzed Killer Bee at like 20 meters as a much slower Edo. 



Meaning he can blitz anybody that's not top tier in reflexes at his peak IMO.



Turrin said:


> Kakashi (4.5 + Sharingan) when fighting Hidan even at point blank range (3.5), could not simply blitz him.



Kakashi didn't use a shunshin.



Turrin said:


> Asuma (4.5 in speed, maybe slight less as Edo) when fighting Choji (2)  at point blank range



Chōji was likely higher by then. Asuma didn't use a shunshin.



Turrin said:


> Gai and Lee (both probably having a 5) when fighting Haku (4 maybe slightlyless as an edo) couldn't blitz at point blank range



Haku was using his kekkei genkai, which vastly amplifies his speed.



Turrin said:


> Raiton no Yoroi, Bijuu Chakra, S-T Jutsu, Gates, Senjutsu, and maybe i'm forgetting a few other things, but the picture is clear.



You forgot shunshin.


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## fior fior (Dec 7, 2013)

At 15m, Teuchi _*might*_ be able to avoid being immediately torn in half. He'd die shortly after, though.

Don't know if that counts as a blitz.
edit: just to clarify, all other characters don't even process the blitz taking place as they are immediately reduced to sub-atomic particles.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

Don't jerk it to Kyu's sig. I know you're thinking it. But don't. Just open up Facebook and tug it to one of your friends like a normal person.


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## Turrin (Dec 7, 2013)

@Strategoob

Itachi never blitz'd B, he used the smoke kicked up by Nagato's summoning, which blocked B's LOS to slip behind him and which point B responded to this casually:
much slower Edo

Than later when the two clashed directly in CQC B was the one pressuring Itachi, not the other way around:
much slower Edo

& Edo Itachi is thee fastest Itachi we've seen as the other Itachi we've seen is sick & dying.

Haku was outside the Mirrors when he react to Gai and Lee's attacks. So yeah...

And you can preach Shunshin all you want, but when have we actually seen a character get blitz'd by Shunshin, when no other Jutsu/abilities like Gates, Raiton no Yoroi, etc... were in place enhancing a characters speed. Even in the example you posted Deidara demonstrated more than enough time to create a C1 bomb & detonated it, to escape. And Sasuke is someone who is especially hype for his skill w/ Shunshin, unlike Itachi.

So show me Shunshin actually blitzing someone worth note, I may have forgotten some instance, so I'd be interested to see what you can drum up.


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## Kanki (Dec 7, 2013)

Turrin wins the thread. I never understood the 'Itachi blitz'd Bee' brigade. It screamed of tards who just look for 'feats' to use in the BD. Kakashi not being able to blitz Hidan was the example I used to give when arguing with those who were sure Itachi could just be-head whoever the fuck he wanted with his bare hand.

But......that OP is amazing


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

Turrin said:


> and which point B responded to this casually:
> much slower Edo



After the warning, he responded. (And was hurt.)



Turrin said:


> Than later when the two clashed directly in CQC B was the one pressuring Itachi, not the other way around



Itachi wasn't using a shunshin, Bee had superior weapons e.g. Kakashi vs Hidan.



Turrin said:


> & Edo Itachi is thee fastest Itachi we've seen as the other Itachi we've seen is sick & dying.



Yes. Prime Itachi is unknown.



Turrin said:


> Haku was outside the Mirrors when he react to Gai and Lee's attacks. So yeah...



Oh, I guess he wasn't boosted.





Turrin said:


> And you can preach Shunshin all you want, but when have we actually seen a character get blitz'd by Shunshin, when no other Jutsu/abilities like Gates, Raiton no Yoroi, etc... were in place enhancing a characters speed.



Bee and Deidara weren't blitzed because they were warned.



Turrin said:


> Even in the example you posted Deidara demonstrated more than enough time to create a C1 bomb & detonated it, to escape.



After Obito warned him.


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## Ersa (Dec 7, 2013)

Itachi did blitz Kurenai (who has a 4 in speed) and right after Kakashi claimed he was holding back severely. Add on the fact he had a terminal diease and we know for a fact a healthy Itachi would be much faster. His reflexes are very close to a mastered EMS Sasuke and his Shunshin put severe pressure on B (Viz suggested B needed the warning). So anyone slower then Base B would have likely get blitzed by a bloodlusted Itachi. Sasuke did almost blitz Deidara and Itachi is eons faster then base Hebi Sasuke so the notion that he isn't blitzing anyone of note is ridiculous.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

Itachi also blitzed three adult 3-tomoe Sharingan users at once, and even 'Chūnin level' Sasuke was able to keep track of KN0's likely 5/5 speed with the dōjutsu alone.

Sasuke with 2-tomoe Sharingan = unweighted Lee = 4/5 speed
Sasuke with 2-tomoe Sharingan was getting  by KN0 speed
Sasuke with 3-tomoe Sharingan was raping KN0​


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## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

You seem to be fusing Taijutsu skill & speed into one category.


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## Ersa (Dec 7, 2013)

And to think Susanoo forms even quicker then Itachi moves. I just realized Flash Shunshin + Susanoo grab means Itachi can casually stomp people like Onoki now  Itachi is most likely equal to V1 Ei speed and Susanoo formation speed is probably KCM Naruto levels.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You seem to be fusing Taijutsu skill & speed into one category.



Is that directed at me? And if so, at what statement? I don't think I was, sweet Rocky.​


Kyokan said:


> And to think Susanoo forms even quicker then Itachi moves. I just realized Flash Shunshin + Susanoo grab means Itachi can casually stomp people like Onoki now  Itachi is most likely equal to V1 Ei speed and Susanoo formation speed is probably KCM Naruto levels.



Even Sick-Edo Itachi's faster than v1 A by virtue of being faster than EMS Sasuke and thus faster than MS Sasuke from a few hundred chapters earlier, who himself .

The typical trick is to argue that the Sharingan enhances only reflexes, not speed, but that's simply incorrect given that Bee said the exact opposite, pointblank, and we've seen the opposite.

When a ninja's reflexes are enhanced, with the lightning cloak or Sharingan, they move faster so long that they have the chakra control to do so. All Kage levels have that chakra control.​


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## Turrin (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> After the warning, he responded.


The warning that was only necessary because his teammate blocked LOS in the first place? The warning which he may or may not have needed?



> (And was hurt.)


No he wasn't unless your referring a successive attack, which wasn't a blitz, but rather B underestimating the heat of Itachi's Katon Ninjutsu. Plus the damage was so inconsequential it's not even worth mentioning in the first place.



> Itachi wasn't using a shunshin,


That because Itachi has never used Shunshin to blitz someone successfully period.



> Bee had superior weapons e.g. Kakashi vs Hidan.


You mean B was just outright superior in Taijutsu allowing him to wield multiple swords at one time.



> Yes. Prime Itachi is hypothetical.


So unless the OP specifies why are you bringing him up other than Trololo?



> He's always outside the mirrors when moving with them.


The Mirrors allow Haku to project himself at faster speeds, however they don't suddenly enhance his reaction speed and allow him to put up a guard faster. Haku did this on his own.



> Bee and Deidara weren't blitzed because they were warned.


Already covered B. Deidara already showed the speed to react to Sasuke Shunshin here:
BM Naruto

Than Deidara was able to cast a Jutsu (C1 Model Bombs) and throw them at Sasuke. To which Sasuke countered w/ Raiton. It was during the confusion of the Bombs not detonating and Tobi yelling at Deidara, that Sasuke was able to slip outside of Deidara's LOS w/ Shunshin and than launch an attack.

At that point Deidara didn't have an issue w/ being able to react to Sasuke's speed as demonstrated by him pulling out  a C1 model, but rather the fact that Sasuke was outside of his LOS. That is no longer a blitz where one person can't react to the other's speed, rather that is simply someone making good tactical use of a distraction to ambush the enemy.

Now I'm still waiting for those examples of where Shunshin actually landed an effective blitz on someone note-worthy.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Yes. Prime Itachi is unknown.



As per the manga, _the whole page_: Prime Itachi = sick Itachi with slightly more speed and no coughing. That is all.


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## Ersa (Dec 7, 2013)

Holy shit depending on how much being sick slowed him and the speed difference between Edo and living. I wouldn't put it past Prime Itachi to be comparable to V2 Ei 

This pleases me 

50% Sick Itachi (per Kakashi's words) can blitz Kurenai (4 in speed)
Gimped Edo Itachi almost blitzed B (needed a warning to survive).
Gimped Edo Itachi >= EMS Sasuke >> Base Hebi Sasuke who almost blitzed Deidara.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 7, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Holy shit *depending on how much being sick *slowed him and the speed difference between Edo and living. I wouldn't put it past Prime Itachi to be comparable to V2 Ei
> 
> This pleases me



According to the manga, only enough for him to be hit by a rigged shuriken.


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## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Is that directed at me? And if so, at what statement? I don't think I was, sweet Rocky.​




Sasuke didn't "rape" Naruto with his raw speed. He outplayed him in hand to hand combat because he could read Naruto's movements. Shunshin hadn't come into play.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

Let's not argue in circles, Turrin. If you think the author wasn't implying anything by giving Bee two warnings for sick-Edo Itachi's two shunshin in one chapter, then that's fine.​


Turrin said:


> You mean B was just outright superior in Taijutsu allowing him to wield multiple swords at one time.



Taijutsu is empty-hand combat. Kenjutsu is with swords. And yeah, Bee's kenjutsu is superior because he mastered a superior style. So what's your point? That has nothing to do with anything.​


Turrin said:


> So unless the OP specifies why are you bringing him up other than Trololo?



The OP does specify. "Itachi is in peak physical condition with good eyesight." Therefore, this thread's Itachi is worlds faster than Edo Itachi, resurrected in the condition he was before he died.

It's like if Kabuto had Edo Tensei'd old man Madara to begin with, then Madara became living and youthful. The speed gap would be singificant, and Edo Itachi was already very fast.

And before we waste our time, Kabuto said that Madara was the only Edo he had made those modifications for, as Chiyo, Hanzō, Nagato, Itachi, etc. were not included in that statement.​


Turrin said:


> The Mirrors allow Haku to project himself at faster speeds, however they don't suddenly enhance his reaction speed and allow him to put up a guard faster. Haku did this on his own.



Yes, they do, Turrin. Haku said in part one that everybody appeared to be moving in slow motion compared to him i.e. reflex enhancement is included in the jutsu as well.​


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## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

By the way, Edo Itachi is about as fast as 7% KCM Naruto, reflexively at least. Hell, he's most likely slower, considering Itachi was probably the more skilled in Taijutsu. Naruto was able to compensate with more speed/reflexes.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke didn't "rape" Naruto with his raw speed. He outplayed him in hand to hand combat because he could read Naruto's movements. Shunshin hadn't come into play.



Naruto was definitely using a sustained  (chakra enhancement) in the panel I linked, and it's fairly clear that taijutsu skill had nothing to do with it. He was berserking all over Sasuke with speed.

And, yeah, Sasuke "raping" wasn't all speed, but he clearly began to move much faster. Aside from the Hachibi stating that the Sharingan plain makes you faster, Sasuke did have a 'flash-step' moment against KN0. Also:



As you can see, Sasuke clearly says his body was boosted in a way similar to Orochimaru's sage energy in his curse seal as well, which is quite notable as an overall physicality boost. Speed, strength, etc.

My point being, if a novice with a 3-tomoe was taking someone with 5/5 speed to pound-town, or Obito as a kid being able to keep step with base Minato largely because of his eye's improvement...

So a near-peak Itachi quickly beating down three experienced 3-tomoe Sharingan users in between panels quite arguably one of the most remarkable speed feats in the manga that highlights peak Itachi.

Moreover, as the 3-tomoe increases reflexes and physicality, then it stands to reason that the Mangekyō would do so further. Sick-Edo Itachi was only using the 3-tomoe against Bee. His speed in prime would be formidable.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 7, 2013)

I think we broke IchLiebe guise.



Rocky said:


> By the way, Edo Itachi is about as fast as 7% KCM Naruto, reflexively at least. Hell, he's most likely slower, considering Itachi was probably the more skilled in Taijutsu. Naruto was able to compensate with more speed/reflexes.



Is there any real speed difference between a Shadow Clone and an original? We know that certain clones like Water Clones are slower. But has it been stated about Shadow Clones? Because from what we've seen a clone of Naruto has still be shown to be about as fast like when he blitzed the Third Raikage. The KM Naruto against Itachi also seemed to be a similar KM Naruto against Obito.



Strategoob said:


> Aside from the Hachibi stating that the Sharingan plain makes you faster, Sasuke did have a 'flash-step' moment against KN0.



It's not so much that the Sharingan makes them faster as it is that their movements become much more fluid. Their body speed doesn't inherently increase, but they can move much more precisely and can react a lot quicker. So it gives off the idea that someone is faster, but is more so reactions and precise movements. I think Madara's statement towards Sasuke pretty much confirms as much.


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## ZE (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He blitzed Killer Bee at like 20 meters as a much slower Edo.
> 
> 
> 
> Meaning he can blitz anybody that's not top tier in reflexes at his peak IMO.


Itachi blitzing Bee here only makes him as fast as cripple Nagato, who couldn?t even walk. 

Considering that?s Itachi?s best feat, he?s only as fast as Nagato. Is that supposed to be impressive? And Nagato?s feat is even more worthy given that he not only blitzed Bee, he also blitzed his own Shinra Tensei, the first one to do so. I rest my case.



Kyokan said:


> 50% Sick Itachi (per Kakashi's words) can blitz Kurenai (4 in speed)



More like Healthy Itachi. Do you have any evidence Itachi was sick at that time?


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## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Naruto was definitely using a sustained shunshin (chakra enhancement) in the panel I linked, and it's fairly clear that taijutsu skill had nothing to do with it. He was berserking all over Sasuke with speed.





That probably wasn't Shunshin, just foot speed, like Lee.



_Naruto _was relying on his speed alone, but Sasuke barley even moved when he out maneuvered KN0. Sasuke didn't speed blitz him, he counter-attacked him. Just as Sage Naruto didn't speedblitz Sandaime Raikage.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 7, 2013)

Munboy cracks me up. He hates Itachi so much yet he always hides behind a composed attitude, trying to get on people's nerves by looking calm.


Don't ever get banned again munboy, its boring without you pek



Rocky said:


> By the way, Edo Itachi is about as fast as 7% KCM Naruto, reflexively at least. Hell, he's most likely slower, considering Itachi was probably the more skilled in Taijutsu. Naruto was able to compensate with more speed/reflexes.




7% what ?


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## ZE (Dec 7, 2013)

Let’s not argue in circles, and agree that any time the author makes a character’s speed being commented on, it means the character in question is supposed to be fast, way above average. Those characters are the only ones capable of blitzing someone from afar. Like it happened with Minato blitzing Kakashi in last week’s chapter.


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## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Is there any real speed difference between a Shadow Clone and an original? We know that certain clones like Water Clones are slower. But has it been stated about Shadow Clones? Because from what we've seen a clone of Naruto has still be shown to be about as fast like when he blitzed the Third Raikage. The KM Naruto against Itachi also seemed to be a similar KM Naruto against Obito.





There is less Chakra for Naruto to vitalize his speed with, and less pumping up his reflexes. Why do you think Bijuu Mode Naruto is faster than KCM Naruto? Why is Jubito faster than both? Etc.


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## Ersa (Dec 7, 2013)

7% KCM Naruto is something I don't buy to be perfectly honestly. That would suggest KCM Naruto can spam 28 FRS, 14 Rasengans, multiple taijutsu bouts, make 27 more clones before he burns out (multiply everything he did in the Nagato fight). I think Kishi doesn't care about these formulas, all we should draw from that is that KCM Naruto was weakened. And I still think a weakened KCM Naruto is much faster then V1 Ei. He also claimed to be much stronger then when he had SM, personally I don't see 7% KCM Naruto as stronger then SM Naruto and Nagato seemed to agree and he is a sensor.


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## Veracity (Dec 7, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Holy shit depending on how much being sick slowed him and the speed difference between Edo and living. I wouldn't put it past Prime Itachi to be comparable to V2 Ei
> 
> This pleases me
> 
> ...



Where at you getting that because he's Edo he's magically slower?


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## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> 7% KCM Naruto is something I don't buy to be perfectly honestly. That would suggest KCM Naruto can spam 28 FRS, 14 Rasengans, multiple taijutsu bouts, make 14 more clones before he burns out (multiply everything he did in the Nagato fight). I think Kishi doesn't care about these formulas, all we should draw fr that is that KCM Naruto was weakened. And I still think a weakened KCM Naruto is much faster then V1 Ei.




I don't care about the percentage he was at, as long as we can agree that Naruto was nowhere near his full strength against Itachi.

But I'd like to point out that Naruto probably can do everything you've listed. Those are the benefits of having Kurama's chakra pool at your leisure.


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## Turrin (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Let's not argue in circles, Turrin. If you think the author wasn't implying anything by giving Bee two warnings for sick-Edo Itachi's two shunshin in one chapter, then that's fine.​


The author was implying Itachi willingness to help them out, as per all the Tensei. 

As for whether they needed the help or not there is no reason to even get into that discussion, because both feats your referring to are not germane to the discussion of a blitz in the first place. This is becuase in both case it was not Itachi's speed that was portrayed as the major problem, but rather the fact that Itachi kept using times when B & Naruto's LOS was blocked to attack them from outside their LOS. 

In no instance is Itachi through sheer speed blitzing B before he's able to do anything. Could Itachi block LOS w/ a Katon, than use a Clone Fient, while Shunshining to a blind spot, and than get the drop on faster enemies or use the smoke kicked up/distration created by to boss summons being pulled out to Shunshin to blind spot, and than get the drop on faster enemies; no doubt he can. But that is not a blitz, that is a clever maneuver used to ambush the enemy. 



> Taijutsu is empty-hand combat. Kenjutsu is with swords. And yeah, Bee's kenjutsu is superior. So what?


So it's not a matter of a superior weapon. It's a matter of B having superior skill in that aspect of CQC.



> The OP does specify.


Sorry I missed it, due to the ridiculously huge Itachi Gif lol.

Than the OP is asking us something unknowable and unquantifiable, unless we go by Tobirama's statement that the Tensei were at near full power, in-which case were talking a minor increase in Itachi's speed, which is still not going to matter here.



> Yes, they do, Turrin. Haku said in part one that everybody appeared to be moving in slow motion compared to him i.e. reflex enhancement is included in the jutsu as well.


That statement does not say Ice Mirrors enhance reflexes, nor does Ice Mirrors Data-book entry when explaining the mechanics of the Jutsu offer anything that would make one think that it does enhance reflexes/reaction time. Haku does not speak towards his own reflexes there, rather he could just be commenting on the fact that compared to his movement speed other movement speeds look slow in comparison (w/ the the statement is a clear hyperbolic statement to begin w/)  -- in-fact that is almost certainly what it is; provide the page in question and I could give you an even clearer interpretation.

Additionally it wouldn't even need to refer to Ice Mirror's, Haku's normal speed (4) was already high enough that when compared to that of Sasuke and Naruto (Wave Arc) would be much slower, to the point where that alone could explain Haku's hyperbolic statement.

And I still continue to wait, for a display of Shunshin through sheer speed blitzing anyone note-worthy.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Don't jerk it to Kyu's sig. I know you're thinking it. But don't. Just open up Facebook and tug it to one of your friends like a normal person.



I need to spread first, but I swear I'm going to rep you for this. 



*Spoiler*: __ 










Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> As per the manga, _the whole page_: Prime Itachi = sick Itachi with slightly more speed and no coughing. That is all.



Zetsu did indicate that there was a significant difference in their movement, as he tried to explain it by guessing that Itachi must've been badly injured before the fight.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> According to the manga, only enough for him to be hit by a rigged shuriken.



I'd call getting hit vs. not getting hit at all by the same thing a big difference.


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## ZE (Dec 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 7% what ?



That clone was almost drained at that point. It tried to use KCM after the fight and couldn?t due to lack of chakra. And it was just one of the many clones Naruto had created before. 7% is a good guess.


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## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 7% what ?




Chakra buddy. Naruto had 13 clones fighting around the different battlefields.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I don't care about the percentage he was at, as long as we can agree that Naruto was nowhere near his full strength against Itachi.
> 
> But I'd like to point out that Naruto probably can do everything you've listed. Those are the benefits of having Kurama's chakra pool at your leisure.



Thats irrelevant given Itachi didn't use anything other than taijutsu on Naruto. Not even a kunai.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 7, 2013)

Less chakra doesn't mean you get slower. We saw Naruto much later against Obito using his flash speed with no trouble. We've seen people use clones and it has NEVER affected their speed, only their jutsu's.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

Turrin said:


> So it's not a matter of a superior weapon. It's a matter of B having superior skill in that aspect of CQC.



Um, no. It's also a matter of a superior CQC weapon. Itachi had a knife and Killer Bee had eight swords. Itachi not being taught the 8-sword style doesn't somehow negate that.​


Turrin said:


> rather he could just be commenting on the fact that compared to his movement speed other movement speeds look slow in comparison



While possible, given that he reacted to Gai and Lee's dynamic entry simultaneously, which blindsides Jiriaya, Kisame, etc. it's likely that his reflexes are boosted as well.​


Turrin said:


> And I still continue to wait, for a display of Shunshin through sheer speed blitzing anyone note-worthy.



Given that this is a story, an anticlimactic blitz wouldn't happen to anybody playing a large role. Instead, they get warnings or passes. The point is made but the fight is more entertaining.​


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## RBL (Dec 7, 2013)

Rain said:


> Damn, this is the highest quality opening post i've seen in a long time



i remember an opening with minato and an itachi-backpack.

it was also cool.


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## Ersa (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I don't care about the percentage he was at, as long as we can agree that Naruto was nowhere near his full strength against Itachi.
> 
> But I'd like to point out that Naruto probably can do everything you've listed. Those are the benefits of having Kurama's chakra pool at your leisure.


He was weakened, it was never suggested to be enormous. Then why did he only make 13 clones? I doubt he can fire off 28 FRS, maybe current KCM Naruto can do that but not pre-BM. SM was supposed to be a hefty amount of chakra and he can only fire off 2 FRS. You're suggesting he can fire off 28, plus Rasengans and 20+ shadow clones when B warned him not to make many clones? Highly doubtful I'm sorry, 28 FRS plus splitting chakra 20 ways is insane even for the Kyuubi.


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## ZE (Dec 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats irrelevant given Itachi didn't use anything other than taijutsu on Naruto. Not even a kunai.



He used shushin to get from Nagato's position to where Naruto was.
Naruto was the one who used nothing but physical attacks.


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## Turrin (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Um, no. It's also a matter of a superior CQC weapon. Itachi had a knife and Killer Bee had eight swords. Itachi not being taught the 8-sword style doesn't somehow negate that.​


This is silly. Never once has the author to my knowledge noted that different weapons make such an astounding difference where one shinobi would be blitz'd if not for holding a certain weapon. 



> While possible, given that he reacted to Gai and Lee's dynamic entry simultaneously, which blindsides Jiriaya, Kisame, etc. it's likely that his reflexes are boosted as well.


It's not possible, its a confirmed fact, that he reacted w/ a 4 in speed. Please post panels of the Jiriaya and Kisame shit your referring to. As in J-man's case I only remember a joke feat and one that occured when J-man didn't expect an enemy, I.E. an ambush; though a joke to begin w/ so should not be taken seriously. And in Kisame's case I don't remember at all.



> Given that this is a story, an anticlimactic blitz wouldn't happen to anybody playing a large role. Instead, they get warnings or passes. The point is made but the fight is more entertaining.


You can make any excuses you want, but the fact that Kishi doesn't have them happen, means they aren't happening & thus pointless to discuss. You can go off and write a fanfic were anything happens, go nuts.  And the whole Anti--climatic thing is dumb argument anyway as Kishi has allowed many fights to end anti-climatically due to other things and has allowed them to end anti-climatically w/ blitz's before, just ones that require the enhancement of some ability/jutsu besides Shunshin.


----------



## ZE (Dec 7, 2013)

Even if you warn the opponent before attacking after getting his back, if you're really faster than said opponent you'd still manage to attack before any reaction occurs. 

Itachi couldn't do it against Bee. He got his back, warned Bee, Bee listened and dodged the attack.

Now lets see an example of the contrary happening. 
Asura gets Jiraiya's back. He warns and preaches Jiraiya, yet Jiraiya couldn't react in time. And yes, Asura only attacked after he stopped talking, giving Jiraiya enough time to avoid. Both Asura and Itachi were more or less at the same distance from their opponents.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 7, 2013)

Bee blitzed Raikage, Itachi blitzed Bee. Itachi's the fastest person in the manga . (Naruto could only dodge Ei, not blitz him.)


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> As you can see, Sasuke clearly says his body was boosted in a way similar to Orochimaru's sage energy in his curse seal as well, which is quite notable as an overall physicality boost. Speed, strength, etc.



Mistranslation.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Munboy cracks me up. He hates Itachi so much yet he always hides behind a composed attitude, trying to get on people's nerves by looking calm.
> 
> 
> Don't ever get banned again munboy, its boring without you pek



I'm not sure what to say.



Nikushimi said:


> Zetsu did indicate that there was a significant difference in their movement, as he tried to explain it by guessing that Itachi must've been badly injured before the fight.



Significant enough to not dodge the shuriken. He didn't feel anything else was out of the ordinary.
The injury theory came in after Itachi spent a lot of time coughing blood.



> I'd call getting hit vs. not getting hit at all by the same thing a big difference.



How well he dodged a shuriken, that was rigged, was the measure. So we only know he lost the amount of speed to dodge it easily. 

However you're right it is a big deal. The problem is when one tries to baselessly use that as grounds for what Itachi's actual speed was. All we know is that he's fast enough to dodge a rigged shuriken easily. 

Not dodge the shuriken and appear right behind Sasuke before the shuriken parts finished traveling.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 7, 2013)

ZE said:


> He used shushin to get from Nagato's position to where Naruto was.
> Naruto was the one who used nothing but physical attacks.



Itachi was free falling. Even if he jumped up high via shunshin, he was coming @ Naruto with the speed of gravity. 

You are just grasping @ straws now.


----------



## ZE (Dec 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi was free falling. Even if he jumped up high via shunshin, he was coming @ Naruto with the speed of gravity.
> 
> You are just grasping @ straws now.



Just like Sasuke went at Deidara with the speed of gravity in their fight and that was confirmed to be shushin. You can use shushin to appear above your opponent, you know? Actually, it is a good way to catch someone by surprise.


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## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats irrelevant given Itachi didn't use anything other than taijutsu on Naruto. Not even a kunai.




The only reason Naruto is fast in the first place is because of the Kyuubi's Chakra. When you cut the amount of Chakra powering Naruto's speed/reflexes by thirteen and distribute it evenly among desperate bodies (clones), each individual recipient of the Chakra is going to be slower than the whole. That's common sense.

Why do you think the Raikage get's faster when he pumps more Chakra into his shroud?



IchLiebe said:


> Less chakra doesn't mean you get slower.








> We saw Naruto much later against Obito using his flash speed with no trouble.




No we didn't.



> We've seen people use clones and it has NEVER affected their speed, only their jutsu's.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 7, 2013)

What page and chapter?



> No we didn't.



We did.

[/quote]

How does that prove anything? Hashirama also got a shit ton of black rods in him from Madara. Madara is obviously faster.


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## ZE (Dec 7, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> How does that prove anything? Hashirama also got a shit ton of black rods in him from Madara. Madara is obviously faster.



If Madara could do that to the real Hashirama, the results of their fights wouldn't have been the same. The point was, the clones were so weak and slow Madara didn't even have to stand up to pierce them.


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## Garcher (Dec 7, 2013)

Totsuka blitz gg


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## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> What page and chapter?




You are the main stars, page eleven. 




> We did.




And as you can see, Obito was able to intercept Naruto's attack on the Manzo by throwing the gunabi in the air.

Evidently, either that wasn't Shunshin or it wasn't at full power.




> How does that prove anything? Hashirama also got a shit ton of black rods in him from Madara. Madara is obviously faster.




Hashirama was keeping pace with Perfect Susano'o.

Hashirama with his Chakra divided got killed by rib-cage Susano'o while Madara was sitting down.


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## Ersa (Dec 7, 2013)

ZE said:


> If Madara could do that to the real Hashirama, the results of their fights wouldn't have been the same. The point was, the clones were so weak and slow Madara didn't even have to stand up to pierce them.


Actually the Viz translation suggests Madara held back against Hashirama. Take that as you will  Even holding back he managed to stab Hashirama 5 times and the latter is like the King of defense so it's still impressive.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 7, 2013)

ZE said:


> If Madara could do that to the real Hashirama, the results of their fights wouldn't have been the same. The point was, the clones were so weak and slow Madara didn't even have to stand up to pierce them.



He had to use Susanoo which is one of his strongest jutsu's. And we saw that the rods didn't change the outcome of the fight. Hashirama also has Tsunade's healing ability in life.


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## ZE (Dec 7, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> He had to use Susanoo which is one of his strongest jutsu's. And we saw that the rods didn't change the outcome of the fight. Hashirama also has Tsunade's healing ability in life.



Madara never referred to hashirama the same way he referred  to the clone. The reason he called the clone weak was because he could stab it while seated, and since he never called Hashirama weak, he couldn't do that to the real Hashirama.



Kyokan said:


> Actually the Viz translation suggests Madara held back against Hashirama. Take that as you will  Even holding back he managed to stab Hashirama 5 times and the latter is like the King of defense so it's still impressive.



You're betting on the wrong horse. The manga already made it clear edo Hashirama>edo Madara. And Base Hashirama>EMS Madara. And that SM Hashirama>EMS Madara+Kyuubi.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You are the main stars, page eleven.



I take it as they didn't have time to make the clones because they needed to hurry before Naruto and Sasuke got to Obito. They would have to create clones, and then make their marks. It would also be hard having to wait for Minato's arm to regenerate (which never did)




> And as you can see, Obito was able to intercept Naruto's attack on the Manzo by throwing the gunabi in the air.
> 
> Evidently, either that wasn't Shunshin or it wasn't at full power.



Or you underestimate Obito. He's fast himself and Naruto was a LARGE distance away meaning Obito had more time to react.



> Hashirama was keeping pace with Perfect Susano'o.
> 
> Hashirama with his Chakra divided got killed by rib-cage Susano'o while Madara was sitting down.



Maintaining the barrier drained them. Tobirama could only make 2 clones because of it. It clearly held it's toll on Hashirama too. Susanoo doesn't magically get faster the more stages it goes up either.


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## Ersa (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It isn't Obito's speed in question. The Gunbai psychically traveled fast enough to intercept Naruto. I smell bullshit.


Why can't an item be fast? Kakashi's Raikiri infused kunai travelled faster then him iirc, Madara used the gunbai to block a faster BM Naruto. It's supposed to be a legendary item so having a high-end feat of travelling fast enough to block a speedster from a long distance doesn't seem far-fetched.


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## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Minato used it perfectly with clones before?




Because Minato is that fast. However, their target this time was Jubito, not half dead Obito being taken over by Zetsu.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if you used some of your reading skills. "Using Hiraishin with the clones is too slow" means the actual utilization of the Jutsu is what is slow. Not the _creation_ of the clones to utilize it.




> I can throw a ball faster than I can run. That shit's logic.




I didn't know you were a magical Ninja who can vitalize his speed with Chakra.



> And most likely drained them physically like jokey boy did to Trollkage. Kakashi uses clones all the time. Am I to boost his speed because of it?




Kakashi's clones don't have very good speed feats, so go ahead. None of the Edo Kage appeared physically drained from the barrier.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Because Minato is that fast. However, their target this time was Jubito, not half dead Obito being taken over by Zetsu.
> 
> We wouldn't be having this conversation if you used some of your reading skills. "Using Hiraishin with the clones is too slow" means the actual utilization of the Jutsu is what is slow. Not the _creation_ of the clones to utilize it.



We are obviously going to disagree. You're also comparing Hiraishin, S/T ninjutsu, with a simple shunshin but I don't mind.





> I didn't know you were a magical Ninja who can vitalize his speed with Chakra.



I can also throw shit faster using chakra .




> Kakashi's clones don't have very good speed feats, so go ahead. None of the Edo Kage appeared physically drained from the barrier.



Then use Kisame. A 30% Kisame could mentally keep up with 6th gate Gai, does that mean 100% Kisame can physically? Which means v2 Bee could blitz 6th Gate Gai if you say yes.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

Hmm, I would normally say that when ninja have exceptionally gargantuan chakra supplies, their smaller-percent clones aren't slowed as much. Kisame and Kyūbi Naruto are great examples.

But Hashirama throws a wrench in that, unless maybe we're underestimating the speed of Susano'o. Maybe Hashirama at full power could narrowly dodge it by a few inches, like Sage Kabuto?

Who knows. We put more thought into the manga than the author. But Edo Itachi was as fast as Edo Madara, if not faster, so peak living Itachi would be as fast as living Madara, which is top tier IMO.

The author was always holding E-touch back, except for a total of 2 instants against Nagato and Orochimaru, and even then, he had killing intent, but wasn't at his peak (sick, Edo, etc.)​


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## IchLiebe (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Hmm, I would normally say that when ninja have exceptionally large chakra, their clones aren't slowed nearly as much i.e. 30% Kisame or even 7% KCM Naruto?
> 
> But Hashirama throws a wrench in that, unless maybe y'all are just underestimating Susano'o speed. Maybe 90-100% Hashirama could only dodge it by a few inches, like Sage Kabuto, etc.
> 
> Who knows. We put more thought into the manga than the author. But Edo Itachi was as fast as Edo Madara, if not faster, so peak living Itachi would be as fast as living Madara, which is top tier IMO.​



Itachi's susanoo was fast enough to block lightning after he had made bunshins and used MS and was HEAVILY drained. Damn, datKing .


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## ZE (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Hmm, I would normally say that when ninja have exceptionally gargantuan chakra supplies, their smaller-percent clones aren't slowed as much. Kisame and Kyūbi Naruto are great examples.
> 
> But Hashirama throws a wrench in that, unless maybe we're underestimating the speed of Susano'o. Maybe Hashirama at full power could narrowly dodge it by a few inches, like Sage Kabuto?
> 
> ...


I agree. Edo Itachi=Edo Madara

And since we know edo Nagato at least=edo Itachi
Edo Nagato=edo Madara

That means an immobile cripple was as fast as edo Madara
OMG, how much faster would healthy Nagato be?


BTW, SM Naruto blitzed Asura when the other Pains were looking at Naruto. So Naruto was able to blitz an Asura at top speed from afar without the Pains being able to do anything. And the Pains were closer to Asura than Naruto was. 

Not even Kakashi could blitz Asura when shared vision came into play. In fact, it was Asura the one who intercepted Kakashi even after being damaged by the akimijis. Do you know how much faster could this make SM Naruto in comparison to Kakashi?


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

He can't be an immobile cripple if he blitzed Bee.

That bitch was faking it the entire time for free piggyback rides. 

_Genius._

But yeah, peak Nagato is likely about as fast as peak Itachi.

Both of which are about as fast as peak (current) Madara.


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## ZE (Dec 7, 2013)

He's an immobile cripple, but he has jeet boosters on his feet, like Asura.
That makes Nagato as fast as Asura realm, the same Asura realm that dodged Kakashi with a smile on his face, and that intercepted Kakashi's raikiri after getting damaged by Chouji's dad. 

And since SM Naruto blitzed its top speed from kilometers away, SM Naruto is faster than Itachi, Nagato, Kakashi and co


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

ZE said:


> He's an immobile cripple, but he has jeet boosters on his feet, like Asura.
> That makes Nagato as fast as Asura realm, the same Asura realm that dodged Kakashi with a smile on his face, and that intercepted Kakashi's raikiri after getting damaged by Chouji's dad.
> 
> And since SM Naruto blitzed its top speed from kilometers away, SM Naruto is faster than Itachi, Nagato, Kakashi and co



Not so fast there, hombre. Naruto said that Nagato's use of the Six Paths abilities was far above Pain's usage, meaning that Nagato would be much faster with the speed boost jutsu than the puppet.​


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## ZE (Dec 7, 2013)

Naruto was talking about the Pain jutsu he fought. You know, the one that was being controlled by a Nagato that had just used a jutsu that had weakened him so much that his main player could no longer use ST. Nagato wasn't in top condition, and since Pain's chakra is Nagato's chakra, the Pain Naruto fought was a weaker one. 

Naruto doesn't know how a full power Pain fights, only Jiraiya does.
A full power Pain doesn't spend most of a fight trying to stall so that Deva's jutsu can come back.


----------



## Turrin (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Who knows. We put more thought into the manga than the author. But Edo Itachi was as fast as Edo Madara, if not faster, so peak living Itachi would be as fast as living Madara, which is top tier IMO.​



Where are you getting the idea that Edo Itachi was as fast as Edo Madara from. Edo Madara was reacting to Ei's attacks in time to block, where does Itachi have even close to those feats.​


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## Ersa (Dec 7, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Where are you getting the idea that Edo Itachi was as fast as Edo Madara from. Edo Madara was reacting to Ei's attacks in time to block, where does Itachi have even close to those feats.


Reacted faster then Sasuke to Muki Tensei, the same Sasuke who later tracked and reacted to a being who makes Ei look like a slug. Even if Sasuke improved between the fights, the difference isn't huge. Itachi should be comfortably in EMS Sasuke's ballpark in terms of reactions.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Where are you getting the idea that Edo Itachi was as fast as Edo Madara from. Edo Madara was reacting to Ei's attacks in time to block, where does Itachi have even close to those feats.



Blitzing Bee, saving Sasuke, blocking Naruto, Kabuto, etc. Sick Itachi was quicker than Sasuke, so v2 A having the same success against Edo Itachi, let alone peak Itachi, was never accurate.​


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The only reason Naruto is fast in the first place is because of the Kyuubi's Chakra. When you cut the amount of Chakra powering Naruto's speed/reflexes by thirteen and distribute it evenly among desperate bodies (clones), each individual recipient of the Chakra is going to be slower than the whole. That's common sense.
> 
> Why do you think the Raikage get's faster when he pumps more Chakra into his shroud?



Adding more Chakra does not increase speed across the board. It depends on the context. For instance, CS2 never implied to have made Sasuke any faster than CS1 and in Kimimaro's case, it slowed him down. 4TK also seemed to be slower than 3TK Naruto. 

There's only so much you can put into a Jutsu and have it still work properly (remember that it all has to be controlled as well). Shunshin is no different. Naruto's body speed and reflexes are augmented by Kurama's Chakra, but that isn't necessarily about quantity. It could just be because Kurama has a powerful Chakra. 

Let me give you the example that basically ends that argument and it's what you used with A. A has, on several occasions, attacked with full speed and even stated that it was literally his fastest punch or top speed. But A always had Chakra to spare. If it's as you say, then A would be out of Chakra after he attacked Minato and Naruto. But since that's not the case, that theory falls apart. 


The activating of a Space/Time Jutsu does not equate to body speed. Like I said, KM Naruto's reflex/body speed feats are very consistent whether or not he has clones out or not.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> 7% KCM Naruto is something I don't buy to be perfectly honestly. That would suggest KCM Naruto can spam 28 FRS, 14 Rasengans, multiple taijutsu bouts, make 27 more clones before he burns out (multiply everything he did in the Nagato fight). *I think Kishi doesn't care about these formulas, all we should draw from that is that KCM Naruto was weakened.*


What in the world do you base that conclusion on?  It's stated on multiple occasions that shadow clones split the chakra evenly, it's stated in the databook, stated more than once in the manga, and it's an issue that kishi continues to bring up via kakashi.  

One of Naruto's 12 shadow clones was capable of 2 FRS, 1 bijuurasengan, 1 rasengan planet, a rasengan and a chou oodama rasengan before he needed assistance from kurama.  That's perfectly in line with the real naruto's chakra expenditures after he use TKB.

Not only that, I don't know where you get 27 more clones, and 28 FRS + 14 rasengans is a drop in the bucket compared to the chakra reserves KCM Naruto should have considering Naruto way back in the pain arc is capable of at least 10 FRS, tons of clones, and tons of rasengans.



Kyokan said:


> And I still think a weakened KCM Naruto is much faster then V1 Ei. He also claimed to be much stronger then when he had SM, personally I don't see 7% KCM Naruto as stronger then SM Naruto and Nagato seemed to agree and he is a sensor.


Naruto with only 7% of his KCM chakra is stronger than Naruto who lost his SM after just 2 FRS back in the pain arc as he doesn't have that vulnerable period.  in addition to that, Naruto at that time still had all of his pain arc powers, so it's pretty obvious that a KCM Naruto w/ 7% chakra with the ability to use SM is > a naruto with the ability to use SM.

Finally, Itachi isn't even close to the speed of V1 Ei since he's not manhandling KCM Naruto in taijutsu which means there can't be a bigger speed gap between him and Naruto then there was between KN0 naruto and 3tomoe sasuke at VoTe.

As for the thread, he doesn't blitz anyone better than Hebi Sasuke blitzes at those distances.  
That means at 1 meter, maybe Gai.
At 5 meters the same.
At 10 meters Deidara.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

Sick Itachi's faster than v1 A, as A took a Chidori in the chest from a slower Uchiha. (Guess who didnt? Sick, injured Itachi.)

Edo Itachi was significantly faster, given that he was bltzing Bee, unlike A. Peak Itachi would be much, much faster than v1 A.​


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Sick Itachi's faster than v1 A, as A took a Chidori in the chest from a slower Uchiha. (Guess who didnt? Sick Itachi.)
> 
> Edo Itachi's significantly faster. Peak Itachi's even moreso.​



Sharingan precog and the fact that sick itachi was running away from the chidori while Ei was running at the chidori.  KN0 Naruto is way faster than 3 tomoe sasuke at VoTe, yet Sasuke dominates him in CQC while naruto can't land a hit on him.  it's the same here.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Sharingan precog and the fact that sick itachi was running away from the chidori while Ei was running at the chidori.



It's beside the point. Sick Itachi was shown in the manga and databook to be faster than Sasuke, who outplayed v1 A. Bee also outplayed v1 chapters before getting schooled by Itachi & Nagato.​


ueharakk said:


> KN0 Naruto is way faster than 3 tomoe sasuke at VoTe, yet Sasuke dominates him in CQC while naruto can't land a hit on him.  it's the same here.



KN0 Naruto wasn't faster, however. The Sharingan increases speed 1 as well as grants precognition.​


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> It's beside the point. Sick Itachi was shown in the manga and databook to be faster than Sasuke, who outplayed v1 A. Bee also outplayed v1 chapters before getting schooled by Itachi & Nagato.​



Yeah, due to sharingan precog which doesn't require you to be faster than your opponent or even close to their speed level.   Also, when did bee never got outplayed by nagato or itachi speedwise.  Bee already knew itachi was behind him despite itachi using the summoning as a distraction, Nagato caught up to a bee who was getting hurled by shinra tensei, so neither of those instances have anything to do with bee's speed vs itachi/nagato.  In addition to that, when did Bee outplay V1 Ei?  




Strategoob said:


> KN0 Naruto wasn't faster, however. The Sharingan increases speed as well as grants precognition.​


How exactly does that link show Sasuke is as fast or faster than Naruto?  And as for the second link,* no that's not what bee said.*


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Yeah, due to sharingan precog which doesn't require you to be faster than your opponent or even close to their speed level.



With higher refelxes, speed increases. Hence why the lightning cloak increases speed, the Sharingan increases speed, etc.

Aside from Bee pointblank saying, the databook says Hebi Sasuke was so much faster than Deidara because of the Sharingan as well.​


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> 1 as well as grants precognition.





ueharakk said:


> And as for the second link,* no that's not what bee said.*




What does the viz say.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

I don't know, but it's not like that's the only support for reflex enhancement enhancing speed. C essentially said flat out that solely reflex-enhancement made the Raikage much faster:​


			
				viz said:
			
		

> "Lord Raikage's nervous system and reaction speed are on par with Kohana's Yellow Flash. I'm surprised these folk are managing to keep up. But Lord Raikage can also amplify his ability further using Lightning Release armor...not even the Sharingan will be able to keep up."


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## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

I know. You convinced me. And it makes sense.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What does the viz say.



It doesn't even matter though since we already know how the sharingan allows one to fair better against others in CQC: by showing you images of what they are about to do.  The 'movement' translation fits perfectly in line with what *Naruto says about Sasuke at VoTe after he starts to predict naruto's movements.*



Strategoob said:


> I don't know, but it's not like that's the only support for reflex enhancement enhancing speed. C essentially said flat out that solely reflex-enhancement made the Raikage much faster:​



The reason that reactions speed cannot equal movement speed is because the sharingan will always give one greater reactions than any reaction booster since seeing and thus reacting to something that hasn't already happened will always be greater than reacting to something that is currently happening even if your reactions are instantaneous.  

In addition to that, that very statement also makes the claim that once "Ei is clad in the RnY, not even the sharingan can keep up with him" which gets falsified in that very fight.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Dec 7, 2013)

Itachi's really more reflexive than he is speedy.

I'd say he's a top tier in reflexes(from being > EMS Sauce(Kabuto fight, not Current) )

Physically he's slightly superior to base Killer Bee's speed. Itachi surprised base KB multiple times and even briefly tango'd with both kcm naruto and KB simultaneously.

I'm of the opinion a V3 Susanoo's sword is at least fast enough to eventually tag Itachi if not blitz him outright. 

Assuming the V3 Susanoo has Itachi's reflexes, yet moves and attacks as fast as a humanoid that size would (this is one for the obd mathematicians) it shouldn't even have to try to blitz itachi. This also explains why Sasuke's Susanoo bow is almost undodgeable; the physics of a bow that size would naturally be undodgeable.


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## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Higher reflexes allows one to increase their speed provided one has the Chakra control  (and pool space).

It's called Shunshin.

It's the entire point to the Raikage's Raiton shroud.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What does the viz say.



FRAKA KA KA KA KA KA KOW


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

If that's the site with translation's you trust, then Sasuke says it ups his bodily speed here. It's like a CS1 boost.

However, ninja with Jōnin chakra control are limited by reflexes, not muscles or chakra, which was pretty much stated here:



Ninja vitalize their movement with chakra, which essentially makes them as fast their reflexes can process.​


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> If that's the site with translation's you trust, then Sasuke says it ups his speed here.​



Where does it say Sasuke is as fast or faster than Naruto on that page?




Strategoob said:


> Ninja with good chakra control or limited by reflexes, not physicality, which was pretty much stated here:


By that logic, Kakashi must be moving at rooftier speed since he's not toning it down due to his reflexes.  Also that quote perfectly supports my argument that since Sasuke doesn't land a legit hit on Ei, rather he lands a counterattack on Ei which is exactly what the sharingan allows him to do.  It also perfectly supports my argument about KN0 Naruto vs Sasuke at VoTe since Sasuke definitely had the reaction advantage over KN0 Naruto with the 2 tomeo sharingan, but was still getting speed blitzed.



Rocky said:


> Higher reflexes allows one to increase their speed provided one has the Chakra control  (and pool space).
> 
> It's called Shunshin.
> 
> It's the entire point to the Raikage's Raiton shroud.


The point of his shroud is to power his shunshins, physical attacks and increase their power by adding raiton edge to all of them.  KCM Naruto's cloak doesn't increase his synapses or reactions, yet he's able to pull off shunshins much faster than Ei.  By that logic, Tsunade would have been even more amazed by his *SM speed than his casual KCM speed.*  If Sasuke was as faster than V1 Ei, he'd be getting statements about how fast he is in his current fights.  So would SM Naruto and pretty much anyone with a sharingan.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Where does it say Sasuke is as fast or faster than Naruto on that page?



It says his body was the same as it was with the Curse Seal.​


ueharakk said:


> By that logic, Kakashi must be moving at rooftier speed.



Not at all. It means he was using chakra to move faster than his reflexes could process, which posed a greater threat to himself than his enemy. It's all about reflexes once chakra control is high tier.​


ueharakk said:


> Also that quote perfectly supports my argument since Sasuke doesn't land a legit hit on Ei, rather he lands a counterattack on Ei which is exactly what the sharingan allows him to do.



How was it being a counter make it illegitimate? Who's faster here?



As for running speed, that's shunshin speed, and again, that's going to come down to chakra control for the ninjutsu than it is about muscle strength. Hence why Jirōbo, Tsunade, etc. aren't speedsters.​


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Unless you're a physical freak of nature like Gated Gai.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Unless you're a physical freak of nature like Gated Gai.



No, the Gates are actually a great example of my argument rather than an exception. The first gate unleashes unnatural 100% muscle strength. That's just the first, which most elites can likely use.

That shows how little muscles have to do with speed. All of the following gates use chakra enhancement, which is essentially a sustained shunshin, plus presumable reflex boosting.​


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> The point of his shroud is to power his shunshins, physical attacks and increase their power by adding raiton edge to all of them.




The purpose of the Raikage's shroud was stated. It elevates his reflexes by charging his synapses with Raiton Chakra. When the Raikage uses Bijuu amounts of Chakra (control & pool) in conjunction with the maximum level of Raiton no Yori (reflexes), you get super flickers.



> KCM Naruto's cloak doesn't increase his synapses or reactions, yet he's able to pull off shunshins much faster than Ei.




Of course Kurama's Chakra powered Naruto reactions. 

That's how he was able to visually track the Raikage and avoid him, despite not being able to do that in Base. 

In Bijuu Mode, they're increased even further, as Naruto has more of Kurama's Chakra vitalizing his body.



> By that logic, Tsunade would have been even more amazed by his *SM speed than his casual KCM speed.*




Why? Sage Mode doesn't grant reflexes on par with those of KCM, nor does Naruto have as much Chakra in that form enhancing his movements. 




> If Sasuke was as faster than V1 Ei, he'd be getting statements about how fast he is in his current fights.  So would SM Naruto and pretty much anyone with a sharingan.




Not even Bijuu Sage Naruto was getting comments. Speed isn't defined by character reactions.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> All of the following gates use chakra enhancement, which is essentially a sustained shunshin.​




Shunshin is a Ninjutsu.

Lee, who uses Hachimon, cannot use Ninjutsu.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> It says his body was the same as it was with the Curse Seal.​


And when sasuke is in his cursed seal state, is he as fast as KN0 Naruto?




			
				Strategoob;49163904
[INDENT said:
			
		

> Not at all. It means he was using chakra to move faster than his reflexes could process, which posed a greater threat to himself than his enemy. It's all about reflexes once chakra control is high tier.[/INDENT]


That has nothing to do with him moving at rooftiers speeds.  If he didnt' take account his own reflexes, then he must have been moving at rooftiers speeds since you say the only thing limiting a person is their reflexes.



			
				Strategoob;49163904
[indent said:
			
		

> How was it being a counter make it illegitimate? Who's faster here?


the panel you posted perfectly explains why: that despite you moving extremely quickly, if you don't have the reflexes to react to your opponent's counter you're gunna get hit.  That's what happened with Ei, because he lacked the reflexes to counter he got hit and Sasuke didn't simply because he had the sharingan.  

Neiji and jirobo is a terrible example unless you believe the guy who can bench press the most can also run the fastest 100 meter dash.  it's not about chakra control, it's about physical limitations which is why when naruto, bee, Ei, the jinchuriki, or really anyone in the manga goes into different cloaked modes that greatly increase their physical abilities, they get a great speed boost as well despite their ability to react staying exactly the same.  KN6 naruto almost blitzed deva path with his speed, yet base naruto is much slower than deva path.  Bee's the same, he gets a speed boost from this V1 and V2 form despite reactions staying the same.

Oonoki's weighted rocks technique on Ei also refutes your argument as it's impossible to argue that Ei's max speed gets much greater when he's lightened, yet at the same time he has no problems reacting to his surroundings or moving at that speed.  So the limiting factor isn't ability to react it's obviously the ability to move at those speeds.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Shunshin is a Ninjutsu.
> 
> Lee, who uses Hachimon, cannot use Ninjutsu.



That's the trick though, isn't it? Hachimon clearly involves the body using chakra, so Lee can in fact use a form of ninjutsu. 



He also water walked later depsite having no improvement in ninjutsu in the databook, so he had some rudimentary chakra abilities. He just wasn't talented with traditional ninjutsu.​


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The purpose of the Raikage's shroud was stated. It elevates his reflexes by charging his synapses with Raiton Chakra. When the Raikage uses Bijuu amounts of Chakra (control & pool) in conjunction with the maximum level of Raiton no Yori (reflexes), you get super flickers.


Oonoki increasing Ei's max speed but not increasing his max reflexes refutes that.[/QUOTE]
No it doesn't the RnY was never stated to elevate his reflexes, his reflexes were compared to Minato's and then his RnY was stated to make him so fast the sharingan couldn't keep up with him. It's not saying that the RnY makes him untraceable due to it speeding up his reflexes.





Rocky said:


> Of course Kurama's Chakra powered Naruto reactions.
> 
> That's how he was able to visually track the Raikage and avoid him, despite not being able to do that in Base.
> 
> In Bijuu Mode, they're increased even further, as Naruto has more of Kurama's Chakra vitalizing his body.


Then we should expect BM and KCM naruto to possess reactions above people like Kakashi or obito right?

Also, how exactly would Kurama's chakra power naruto's reactions?  according to you we get an explanation for Ei: his RnY simulating his synapses, but why not naruto?





Rocky said:


> Why? Sage Mode doesn't grant reflexes on par with those of KCM, nor does Naruto have as much Chakra in that form enhancing his movements.


Yes it does, SM grants reflexes well above those of KCM which is why KCM Naruto can't get past V1 Ei and SM Naruto has the reflexes to dodge and pinpoint counter a guy who's just as fast.






Rocky said:


> Not even Bijuu Sage Naruto was getting comments. Speed isn't defined by character reactions.


Bijuu Sage Naruto never used his speed, he was always fighting in his chakra avatar.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Oonoki increasing Ei's max speed but not increasing his max reflexes refutes that.








> Then we should expect BM and KCM naruto to possess reactions above people like Kakashi or obito right?




He does, by far. 




> Yes it does, SM grants reflexes well above those of KCM which is why KCM Naruto can't get past V1 Ei and SM Naruto has the reflexes to dodge and pinpoint counter a guy who's just as fast.




Around the same speed, not "just as fast."

Nevertheless, I'm guessing you missed the part where KCM Naruto got past v2 Ei, a far better feat than anything Sage Naruto has none.



> Bijuu Sage Naruto never used his speed, he was always fighting in his chakra avatar.




Fair enough.


----------



## Sans (Dec 7, 2013)

I think Strategos' point wasn't that it was explicitly a shunshin, merely that it acted similarly and applied the same mechanics. It's how someone without the ability to mould chakra can even remain somewhat repetitive. 

*Edit:* It wasn't, and I needed to refresh the page before posting.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:
			
		

> Oonoki increasing Ei's max speed but not increasing his max reflexes refutes that.



Overall lightening means lighter synapses, and thus his nervous system would move faster for the same reason his legs move faster. So the reasoning holds true, despite that pretty strange case.​


----------



## Turrin (Dec 7, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Reacted faster then Sasuke to Muki Tensei, th.


Sasuke had no reason to react to Muki Tensei as it was not aimed for him in the first place.

Sasuke was consistently keeping up w/ Itachi in reactions at every other time. It's foolish to elevate Itachi beyond Sasuke just because Sasuke didn't both to block a Jutsu that wasn't even aimed at him.



> e same Sasuke who later tracked and reacted to a being who makes Ei look like a slug.


What being is that exactly.



> Even if Sasuke improved between the fights, the difference isn't huge.


This is based on nothing on your part. Madara seems to credit Sasuke's speed to his EMS in the recent chapter and Sasuke's EMS skill has increased tremendously since the Kabuto fight:
like here



> Itachi should be comfortably in EMS Sasuke's ballpark in terms of reactions


Probably not as Itachi lacks EMS.



Strategoob said:


> Blitzing Bee, saving Sasuke, blocking Naruto, Kabuto, etc. Sick Itachi was quicker than Sasuke, so v2 A having the same success against Edo Itachi, let alone peak Itachi, was never accurate.​



He didn't Blitz B, that's made up.  The rest does not prove whatsoever that Edo Itachi = Edo Madara in speed or is anywhere comparable to R2 Ei.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Maybe he lacks the Shunshin skill?



That's what I was going to say. Sort of like Sasuke against Part one Lee.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That's what I was going to say. Sort of like Sasuke against Part one Lee.



Nah, I changed the theory. The lightening jutsu would lighten the nervous sytem as well, making the biological signals move faster, thus enhancing reflexes. That makes much more sense.

What doesn't make sense to me is why an extremely light body would run faster at such insane speeds speed, because a denser body would be better off against air friction.​


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Nah, I changed the theory. The lightening jutsu would lighten the nervous sytem as well, making the biological signals move faster, thus enhancing reflexes. That makes much more sense.




Sure.



> What doesn't make sense to me is why an extremely light body would run faster at such insane speeds speed, because heavier objects would be better off against air friction.




You seem to think Kishimoto knows that.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is what we get for ruthlessly picking apart material written for Japanese fourth graders.​


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Overall lightening means lighter synapses, and thus his nervous system would move faster for the same reason his legs move faster. So the reasoning holds true, despite that pretty strange case.​


how does lighter synapses = nervous system moving faster?  

Also, I'm pretty sure that if Kishi was thinking of how weighted rocks affects a person at the biological level, Ei would probably die from having the mass of each molecule in each cell drastically decrease and then drastically increase.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> how does lighter synapses = nervous system moving faster?



Sorry, it would be lighter neurotransmitters, specifically. Point being, it made all of him faster, even the smaller parts for reflexes.​


ueharakk said:


> Also, I'm pretty sure that if Kishi was thinking of how weighted rocks affects a person at the biological level, Ei would probably die from having the mass of each molecule in each cell drastically decrease.



Kishi gonna' Kishi.​


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## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Sorry, it would be lighter neurons.


but the neurons themselves don't really do any moving....




Strategoob said:


> Kishi gonna' Kishi.


but why only there?  Why don't you think he's 'gonna kish' with the simple explanation of Ei becoming lighter, but instead think that its Eis nervous system that gets lighter?


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## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Onoki's technique doesn't alter mass, it alters weight. Maybe Onoki does something to the gravity affecting his targets.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> but the neurons themselves don't really do any moving....



Neurotransmitters, jeez.



ueharakk said:


> but why only there?  Why don't you think he's 'gonna kish' with the simple explanation of Ei becoming lighter, but instead think that its Eis nervous system that gets lighter?



Him being less dense and moving faster doesn't make sense in itself. I'm simply carrying the lighter = faster logic to everything in A's body, because his entire body was affected, which would result in higher reflexes. That way, the higher reflexes meaning higher speed logic outlined in the manga carries over.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Neurotransmitters, jeez.


but but 




Strategoob said:


> Him being lighter and moving faster doesn't make sense in itself.


not necessarily true, and this problem still persists with lighter reflexes so......



Strategoob said:


> I'm simply carrying the lighter = faster logic to everything in A's body, because his entire body was affected, which would result in higher reflexes.


The simple shounen manga logic would be lighter object + same force = faster max velocity of the whole body.


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## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Onoki's technique doesn't alter mass, it alters weight. Maybe Onoki does something to the gravity affecting his targets.



altering the gravity constant of a target and all it's individual cells and molecules is just as bad as altering the mass....


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 7, 2013)

ZE said:


> Just like Sasuke went at Deidara with the speed of gravity in their fight and that was confirmed to be shushin. You can use shushin to appear above your opponent, you know? Actually, it is a good way to catch someone by surprise.



Which instance are you referring to ? 

Also I didn't say he didn't use shunshin to jump. But eitherway when you are talking about a free fall, everyone is on the same speed.




Rocky said:


> The only reason Naruto is fast in the first place is because of the Kyuubi's Chakra. When you cut the amount of Chakra powering Naruto's speed/reflexes by thirteen and distribute it evenly among desperate bodies (clones), each individual recipient of the Chakra is going to be slower than the whole. That's common sense.
> 
> Why do you think the Raikage get's faster when he pumps more Chakra into his shroud?



Naruto's shroud doesn't charge up like Raikage's to boost his reflexes. It only adds to his shunshin.

Also there is a cap @ how fast he can move with his shunshin, so it doesn't matter if he is missing some of his chakra, he can't use all of it for a shunshin anyways.


----------



## Jad (Dec 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> This is what we get for ruthlessly picking apart material written for Japanese fourth graders.​



Don't make this sadder then it already is


----------



## Krippy (Dec 7, 2013)

Maybe Jewbito, BSM Naruto, or BM Minato.



Turrin said:


> Sasuke had no reason to react to Muki Tensei as it was not aimed for him in the first place.
> 
> Sasuke was consistently keeping up w/ Itachi in reactions at every other time. It's foolish to elevate Itachi beyond Sasuke just because Sasuke didn't both to block a Jutsu that wasn't even aimed at him.



This. Kabuto straight up admitted that he wasn't trying to harm Sasuke, and nothing about that incident implies that Sasuke was in any danger so it's not really a valid reason to scale Itachi to current Sasuke.

Nobody can blitz current Sasuke with his perception feat of tracking jewbito.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Dec 7, 2013)

I don't buy it.

The author shouldn't of specifically had one character protect another character when they both have the same technique. 
If Sasuke could've reacted they both should of used Susanoo.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto's shroud doesn't charge up like Raikage's to boost his reflexes. It only adds to his shunshin.




Yes it does. Otherwise, Naruto wouldn't be able to react to the Raikage's flicker, or keep up with his own.



> Also there is a cap @ how fast he can move with his shunshin, so it doesn't matter if he is missing some of his chakra, he can't use all of it for a shunshin anyways.




He has less Chakra enhancing his _reflexes_, not Shunshin. This is literally the same principle as the Raikage. The more Chakra Ei runs through his shroud, the more reflexive he gets. Naruto with 13 clones out doesn't have nearly as much Chakra powering his Shroud as he does at full.

By the way, Madara slaughtered Hashirama with his Chakra divided while sitting down. Madara cannot do the same to a full powered Shodai.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yes it does. Otherwise, Naruto wouldn't be able to react to the Raikage's flicker, or keep up with his own.


I didn't say KCM doesn't increase his reflexes.
I said it doesn't amp up like Raikage's shroud does, to further increase them.




> He has less Chakra enhancing his _reflexes_, not Shunshin. This is literally the same principle as the Raikage. The more Chakra Ei runs through his shroud, the more reflexive he gets. Naruto with 13 clones out doesn't have nearly as much Chakra powering his Shroud as he does at full.



No its not. Raikage's lightning shroud have different properties.. It increases the speed of A's synapses by running lightning through them or some shit.

KCM has no such property.

You might argue that there is a difference between KCM and BM in regards to speed and reflexes, but KCM in itself doesn't have the same relationships A's shroud does.

Besides even if what you said was true, Naruto's clones could use FRS or minibijuudama. So Naruto doesn't lack any property of the shroud till he uses up all his chakra.




> By the way, Madara slaughtered Hashirama with his Chakra divided while sitting down. Madara cannot do the same to a full powered Shodai.


Maybe because Hashirama's clones weren't using much ninjutsu or being fodder as clones usually do.

Also wood clones could be weaker than the Originals.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't say KCM doesn't increase his reflexes.
> I said it doesn't amp up like Raikage's shroud does, to further increase them.




The "amping" that the Raikage does is just increasing the amount of Chakra that goes into his shroud.



> No its not. Raikage's lightning shroud have different properties.. It increases the speed of A's synapses by running lightning through them or some shit.
> 
> KCM has no such property.




 It has a _very_ similar property, if not the same.

How the hell do you _think _Naruto's shroud increases his reflexes?



> Maybe because Hashirama's clones weren't using much ninjutsu or being fodder as clones usually do.




That doesn't explain how casually Madara tagged them.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The "amping" that the Raikage does is just increasing the amount of Chakra that goes into his shroud.


Yes, but the mechanics of his cloak work like that. The lightning makes his synapses fire faster, more lightning = even faster apparently.

KCM shroud can't be amped in the same manner though.
Has Naruto ever done anything like this ? 



> It has a _very_ similar property, if not the same.
> 
> How the hell do you _think _Naruto's shroud increases his reflexes?


It doesn't increase through lightning, thats for sure.
I don't know the exact mechanics.





> That doesn't explain how casually Madara tagged them.



It perfectly does.
If Hashirama and Madara are more or less equal in their base, Madara can easily gain the edge with Susano'O, which gives him greater reach, strength and durability.
Hashirama's clones might have tried to use some academy level shit and get their asses torn into pieces, like clones do most of the time.

Unless there is a special spotlight on clones, they are pretty much fodder. They are expendable, no one morns their loss.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes, but the mechanics of his cloak work like that. The lightning makes his synapses fire faster, more lightning = even faster apparently.




Kurama's Chakra is what powers Naruto synapses, and by extension his reaction time. That's why when Naruto gains access to more of Kurama's Chakra, he gets faster (Bijuu Mode). The same principle would also apply in reverse. When Naruto has less of Kurama's Chakra amplifying his body, he would become slower.



> It doesn't increase through lightning, thats for sure.
> I don't know the exact mechanics.




Through Chakra, obviously.



> Hashirama's clones might have tried to use some academy level shit and get their asses torn into pieces, like clones do most of the time.




That's because clones are much slower than originals, due to having much less Chakra (usually).


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Kurama's Chakra is what powers Naruto synapses, and by extension his reaction time. That's why when Naruto gains access to more of Kurama's Chakra, he gets faster (Bijuu Mode). The same principle would also apply in reverse. When Naruto has less of Kurama's Chakra amplifying his body, he would become slower.



You are talking about state change. I'd agree that KCM is Naruto's V1, while BM is his V2. So yeah, if Naruto allocates more chakra his shroud becomes BM. If he loses the chakra he either reverts back to KCM or to base. But it isn't just chakra quantity, it also is chakra potency.

KCM doesn't have lows and highs in itself based on chakra that is allocated, though.


When Raikage amps up his shroud, his appereance changes as well.
I don't think this applies to KCM.




> Through Chakra, obviously.


It probably isn't that simple.
I'd say the potency of the chakra, not the quantity.

We know for a fact that cursed seal doesn't grant Sasuke more chakra, it actually spends his chakra, but it also made him faster.

It just made his chakra more potent.



> That's because clones are much slower than originals, due to having much less Chakra (usually).



What your suggesting here is basically saying that anyone who is low on chakra should move slower.

Taking it to a next step, a shinobi with a low chakra pool is slow.
While a shinobi with high chakra pool is fast.

Things don't work like that.


----------



## Turrin (Dec 7, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> I don't buy it.
> 
> The author shouldn't of specifically had one character protect another character when they both have the same technique.


The author specifically highlighted it as a mistake on Itachi's part as failing to predict the true target of the attack. Itachi even apologizes to Sasuke for Fing up:
like here

And that's another thing, this wasn't even a strict reaction feat on Itachi's part, rather he predicted Kabuto would be targeting Sasuke and went to defend him, before he even saw what type of attack Kabuto was launching or the target of the attack. So it's more of a failed intelligence feat, than a reaction feat.



> If Sasuke could've reacted they both should of used Susanoo.


This is silly, why would Sasuke waste chakra on Susano'o when he wasn't even the target. If were going to start saying characters are slower than certain attacks, simply because they don't defend or evade attacks that aren't even aimed at them, you're going to end up w/ some pretty ridiculous conclusions. 

In no other instance did Sasuke ever fail to react at the same speed as Itachi during that battle.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> KCM doesn't have lows and highs in itself based on chakra that is allocated, though.




Of course it does. Everything does.

The Naruto that fought with Nagato/Itachi didn't have enough Chakra to make a clone. 100% KCM could make thirteen. Despite that, there is no difference in appearance in Naruto's shroud. If there wasn't enough of Kurama's Chakra left to create a simple Bunshin, then there obviously isn't going to be much Chakra powering Naruto's reflexes. 



> When Raikage amps up his shroud, his appereance changes as well.
> I don't think this applies to KCM.




That's because Naruto's shroud isn't electricity based. Once Naruto draws upon enough of Kurama's Chakra however, he goes into Bijuu Mode and his appearance does indeed change.



> We know for a fact that cursed seal doesn't grant Sasuke more chakra, it actually spends his chakra, but it also made him faster.




The Juin definitely grants Sasuke more Chakra. It's almost like a Sage Mode boost. It can increase potency too though.



> Taking it to a next step, a shinobi with a low chakra pool is slow.
> While a shinobi with high chakra pool is fast.




Shinobi with the biggest Chakra pools _in conjunction with the highest reflexes and Chakra control skills_ are the fastest Shinobi in the Manga. Have you ever wondered why Jubito was as fast as he was?


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Maybe Jewbito, BSM Naruto, or BM Minato.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you can also add to that the fact that sasuke was only using his 3 tomoe sharingan when kabuto used muki tensei while he used his EMS to track juubito.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Of course it does. Everything does.
> 
> The Naruto that fought with Nagato/Itachi didn't have enough Chakra to make a clone. 100% KCM could make thirteen. Despite that, there is no difference in appearance in Naruto's shroud. If there wasn't enough of Kurama's Chakra left to create a simple Bunshin, then there obviously isn't going to be much Chakra powering Naruto's reflexes.


B says that he used it for too long. @ that point longevity was a problem.
Also that is after using FRS twice. You may argue  that by the end of the fight, Naruto didn't have enough chakra to allocate for a bijuu level shunshin, but then it would only be speculation, and doesn't effect the encounter with Itachi.




> That's because Naruto's shroud isn't electricity based. Once Naruto draws upon enough of Kurama's Chakra however, he goes into Bijuu Mode and his appearance does indeed change.


Exactly, so their properties aren't the same. 

Like I said, I am fine with making a distinction between BM and KCM.

And even if you believe that Naruto can actually amp his shroud like Raikage, there is no evidence that he didn't have enough chakra to do so during their encounter with Itachi because he had chakra enough to use 2 FRS.




> The Juin definitely grants Sasuke more Chakra. It's almost like a Sage Mode boost. It can increase potency too though.


didn't have enough Chakra 
He says sharingan is less taxing than Juuin.





> Shinobi with the biggest Chakra pools _in conjunction with the highest reflexes and Chakra control skills_ are the fastest Shinobi in the Manga. Have you ever wondered why Jubito was as fast as he was?



So chakra amount doesn't equal to reflexes  ?

Good


----------



## Baroxio (Dec 8, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The author specifically highlighted it as a mistake on Itachi's part as failing to predict the true target of the attack. Itachi even apologizes to Sasuke for Fing up:
> Kiba style
> 
> And that's another thing, this wasn't even a strict reaction feat on Itachi's part, rather he predicted Kabuto would be targeting Sasuke and went to defend him, before he even saw what type of attack Kabuto was launching or the target of the attack. So it's more of a failed intelligence feat, than a reaction feat.
> ...


How would Sasuke know the attack wasn't aimed at him? 

Because his enemy told him so at the beginning of the match? 

Sure, in the world of ninja and espionage, listening to your opponent is clearly the smartest thing to do in the world.

No. 

Sasuke knew an attack was coming and was unable to erect a defense in time. Even if he knows he won't be the target (despite being Kabuto's initial target after White Rage, and having no knowledge on Muki Tensei to even say it *could *target anybody), there's no reason he couldn't have done what Itachi did and attempted to protect Itachi, who would otherwise have been the target if he wasn't.

The fact that he failed to erect a defense in the face of Kabuto's attack is proof of his inferiority. It's not, in any way, shape, or form, the "sensible" or "smart" thing to do.

And lol at wasting chakra. Sasuke has yet to run out of chakra naturally since obtaining EMS, only the God Tree has managed to drain him as of yet. The amount of chakra he used in the Kabuto fight, while holding back from his more effective techniques, was miniscule compared to the amount he's expending against Juubito and Madara. Hell, he brought out Susano and Amaterasu Magamatama against a bunch of freaking Zetsu fodder right before this battle. He clearly doesn't care about chakra limits now.

Don't even play.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 8, 2013)

DAMN Ueharakk shutting down everyone that steps in his path.  I honestly don't think I've seen him lose a debate since I've gotten here.

OT: I'm not buying Itachi having reactions even close to Madara. Reacting to point blank V2 Ay, and BM Naruto causally mind you, is far superior to anything Itachi can even think of.

Reacting to feat faster then a 3 Tomoe Sasuke(which the Justu wasn't even some for - and Sasuke not even trying to defend against said Justu) them randomly powerscaling that specific reaction feat to Juubito is the dumbest thing I have ever seen.

Nobody takes into consideration that Kishi literally gives characters random power ups( War Arc Kakashis stamina and  reactions . Gai's AT. Sai in general) and that Sasuke is in the process of mastering the EMS. His reactions are FAR better then against Kabuto when he was perfectly keeping up with Itachi except for that specific move that wasn't aimed for him when he reverted to Base Sharingan. You also have to take into consideration, that everything Sasuke is doing is getting a power increase to keep up with Naruto; Legged Sussano, PS, Better reactions, more advanced Enton variations, etc.


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## Ersa (Dec 8, 2013)

People don't just stand there dumbly while senjutsu-powered spikes move towards them. It was coming at all directions so he would have had no idea if Kabuto was aiming at him or not. Are you really think Sasuke is dumb enough to trust Kabuto's word he won't hurt him?  Sasuke isn't an idiot, if had faster reactions then Itachi then he would have also protected his brother. 

The 3 tomoe point is iffy as neither activating MS nor EMS have ever be stated or shown to give better pre-cognition. In fact I think EMS and 3 tomoe are the same in that respects, EMS will boost the original 3 tomoe due to being more powerful eyes. If MS/EMS did make tracking easier, Sauce would've used MS against V1 Ei instead of 3 tomoe. Itachi would've used MS against Nardo instead of 3 tomoe. So Itachi is superior to a Sasuke still adjusting to his eyes, even still I have my doubts V2 Ei can blitz Kabuto-fight Sasuke.

EMS Sasuke (Juubito fight) > Edo Itachi > EMS Sasuke (Kabuto) >> MS Sasuke is how I personally see it. 

Itachi can blitz anyone slower then Base B, the Viz shows the latter needed a warning and Itachi is far superior to base Hebi Sasuke (5 vs 4.5, better feats, kept up with him easily while dying, stabbed in the leg, sick and holding back) who almost blitzed Deidara.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 8, 2013)

Not to mention just because Kabuto wouldn't kill Sasuke doesn't mean he wouldn't injure him and heal him up later e.g. him using Sawarabi no Mai without discretion.

Itachi knew he had an immortal body that could shake off injury and that Sasuke didn't. But Turrin loves drinking himself some HATERADE anyway. Hey. Hey, Turrin. Water's better.​


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## Ersa (Dec 8, 2013)

Nah Sasuke is smart as, he trusts Kabuto not to hurt him. And clearly the spikes weren't going for him, it's not like they were coming from all directions. And also 3 tomoe can easily track V1 Ei, if Sasuke can't react to that then the spikes must be V2 Ei speed meaning Itachi can react to V2 Ei :ignoramus


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## Danzio (Dec 8, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> 1m- He could blitz Juubi jin Obito but the king doesn't need bitch blood on his hands. Minato would also get blitzed.
> 
> 
> Itachi blitzes the Narutoverse .



I feel like I've just  entered an alternative reality. 

Dafuq is going on 

It appears you have been molested by fanatics from the Church Of Itachi, publicly, and thus forced to repent for your nonexistent sins plus carry the Itachi flag, as long as you remain on this earth  - in which case, you have my condolences .


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 8, 2013)

This thread is just strange. Lmao


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## Kickflip Uzumaki (Dec 8, 2013)

I'm not sure you guys understand Itachi's title. Itachi, The Solo King. Any and all besides Lord Naruto Uzumaki fall to his might, low-mid diff.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 8, 2013)

Kabuto clearly held back when he was fighting Itachi; Sasuke was valuable.

Kabuto held back, a lot. Sasuke held back, a lot. Itachi held back, the least (just one Susanoo form). 
Despite that Itachi got blitzed by Kabuto a number of times. As such Kabuto could be counted as those who can blitz Itachi.


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## Ersa (Dec 8, 2013)

When did Kabuto blitz Itachi? Muki Tensei was hardly legitimate as Itachi reacted but decided to protect his brother. The feat when he hid in the snakehead was hardly legitimate either, Itachi had no knowledge he was in there and at that distance, few can avoid SM Kabuto's speed (SM Kabuto is quite possibly one of the fastest Naruto characters). People like Kakashi, Jiraiya, EMS Madara, B would easily have been cleaved in half at the same distance/if they were prepping something/didn't know he was there.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 8, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> When did Kabuto blitz Itachi? Muki Tensei was hardly legitimate as Itachi reacted but decided to protect his brother.



Itachi reacted, got tricked and blitzed. It is that simple.



> The feat when he hid in the snakehead was hardly legitimate either, Itachi had no knowledge he was in there and at that distance, few can avoid SM Kabuto's speed (SM Kabuto is quite possibly one of the fastest Naruto characters).



Itachi simply lacked the adequate skills (sensing) to track Kabuto. He got blitzed, therefore.



> People like Kakashi, Jiraiya, EMS Madara, B would easily have been cleaved in half at the same distance/if they were preppiing something.



B tanked things like Juugo's sage transformation augmented punch, a Shinra Tensei that "killed" Edo Itachi, a direct Shinra Tensei, Yugito's nails... You can argue that he could tank Kabuto's attack too. I.E. he wouldn't likely be chopped in half.

Kakashi has scent, Jiraiya has a detection barrier alongside SM sensing and EMS Madara has chakra sensing. I doubt they'd get blitzed as they have ways of tracking their foes.

Just because we disapprove of a feat doesn't mean we say "BU-- BUT it ISN'T LEGIT!!!". He got blitzed by Kabuto a lot of the time; notice Sasuke saved Itachi quite a lot. That says a lot. All while Sasuke/Kabuto were holding back a lot.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 8, 2013)

No. If anything, Itachi was too fast for Kabuto, given that Kabuto repeatedly failed to see clone replacements. Even Sasuke with his fancy new dōjutsu was shocked by those.

Kabuto's one "edge" on Itachi was when Itachi said he was completing Izanami, then baited Kabuto to attack in a way that would complete Izanami. In other words: _he was played_.

Moreover, it was stated by Itachi that he went the extra mile 1 2 to help Kabuto because he empathized with him. Itachi was the superior, mentally and physically, and the author made that clear.​


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 8, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi reacted, got tricked and blitzed. It is that simple.
> 
> Itachi simply lacked the adequate skills (sensing) to track Kabuto. He got blitzed, therefore.



Don't over and misuse the term of blitzing. If you're talking about literal speedblitzing, that's when someone attacks before you can react and do anything about it. And that's obviously when they see the person beforehand. It's not considered a blitz for a clone of Naruto sneaking up behind Kakashi and grabbing him during the bells test. That had nothing to do with speed reactions and body speed. It's also not considered a speedblitz when things happen like Konohamaru's Rasengan on Pain. 

In the first case, Itachi reacted and acted upon the attack. That's not a speedblitz. He had no concern for himself because he is an Edo zombie and thus would regenerate. Nothing about that attack suggested that Itachi was outsped to the point where he couldn't do anything, well considering he actually did something.

In the second case, Itachi was looking forward and concentrating on activating Izanami when Kabuto came flying out of the snake below his line of sight. It's a surprise attack and thus falls under the category of the examples I gave above for Konohamaru and Naruto.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 8, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> No. If anything, Itachi was too fast for Kabuto, given that Kabuto repeatedly failed to see clone replacements. Even Sasuke with his fancy new dōjutsu was shocked by those.
> 
> Kabuto's one "edge" on Itachi was when Itachi said he was completing Izanami, then baited Kabuto to attack in a way that would complete Izanami. In other words: _he was played_.
> 
> Moreover, it was stated by Itachi that he went the extra mile 1 2 to help Kabuto because he empathized with him. Itachi was the superior, mentally and physically, and the author made that clear.​



Itachi was too fast for the guy who poked him, cut him, stabbed him and stunned him? 

The links would've meant more if Sasuke's mere appearance (ensuring Kabuto would hold back + saving Itachi) didn't contribute to the events leading up to said pages.



Master Sephiroth said:


> Don't over and misuse the term of blitzing. If you're talking about literal speedblitzing, that's when someone attacks before you can react and do anything about it. And that's obviously when they see the person beforehand. It's not considered a blitz for a clone of Naruto sneaking up behind Kakashi and grabbing him during the bells test. That had nothing to do with speed reactions and body speed. It's also not considered a speedblitz when things happen like Konohamaru's Rasengan on Pain.
> 
> In the first case, Itachi reacted and acted upon the attack. That's not a speedblitz. He had no concern for himself because he is an Edo zombie and thus would regenerate. Nothing about that attack suggested that Itachi was outsped to the point where he couldn't do anything, well considering he actually did something.
> 
> In the second case, Itachi was looking forward and concentrating on activating Izanami when Kabuto came flying out of the snake below his line of sight. It's a surprise attack and thus falls under the category of the examples I gave above for Konohamaru and Naruto.



When did I mention literal speed blitzing?


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 8, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> When did I mention literal speed blitzing?



The context of the conversation indicated as such. But hey, as long as you don't disagree with what I said.


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## Ersa (Dec 8, 2013)

I guess Itachi blitzed Kabuto with his clone feint :ignoramus

Circumstances don't change anything.


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## Krippy (Dec 8, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> you can also add to that the fact that sasuke was only using his 3 tomoe sharingan when kabuto used muki tensei while he used his EMS to track juubito.



True.

I posted this in the wrong thread though


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 8, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> The context of the conversation indicated as such. But hey, as long as you don't disagree with what I said.



I was saying that Itachi couldn't react, adequately, to some of Kabuto's attacks. Literal speed blitzing are there for the likes of Minato and A, whose style revolve around said blitzing. 



Kyokan said:


> I guess Itachi blitzed Kabuto with his clone feint :ignoramus
> 
> Circumstances don't change anything.



Itachi blitzed a Kabuto who didn't remember he had horns.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 8, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I was saying that Itachi couldn't react, adequately, to some of Kabuto's attacks. Literal speed blitzing are there for the likes of Minato and A, whose style revolve around said blitzing.



Even then, Itachi reacted to everything just fine. Even Muki Tensei. How many hits did Itachi really take? His crow clone got stabbed, Muki Tensei, technically Hakugeki (but that affected everything in the room) and Kabuto's attack post the Orochimaru snake getting defeated. None of those had anything to do with reactions. 

Side note, something I just remembered about that fight.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 8, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Even then, Itachi reacted to everything just fine. Even Muki Tensei. How many hits did Itachi really take? His crow clone got stabbed, Muki Tensei, technically Hakugeki (but that affected everything in the room) and Kabuto's attack post the Orochimaru snake getting defeated. None of those had anything to do with reactions.
> 
> Side note, something I just remembered about that fight.



I don't call being poked, stabbed and chopped reacting to everything fine.

What happened after Itachi grabbed the snake?


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 8, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't call being poked, stabbed and chopped reacting to everything fine.



Of course you have to take everything into context. i.e the crow was meant for a feint and that Itachi was being super cautious not to kill him even though Sasuke kept telling him that he won't die easy. And the other two were already explained.



> What happened after Itachi grabbed the snake?



Some white thing came out. It was weird.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 8, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Of course you have to take everything into context. i.e the crow was meant for a feint and that Itachi was being super cautious not to kill him even though Sasuke kept telling him that he won't die easy. And the other two were already explained.



Regardless, Itachi was incapable not avoiding those attacks. Itachi wasn't trying to kill Kabuto, but then again same applied to Sasuke... and Kabuto for the sake of Sasuke.

Itachi holding back is almost meaningless as Kabuto and Sasuke held back more.



> Some white thing came out. It was weird.



Didn't Itachi lose an arm?


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## Ersa (Dec 8, 2013)

Losing an arm in Izanami means nothing 

Should I also mention Kabuto getting his ass handed to him with a Suiton?


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Regardless, Itachi was incapable not avoiding those attacks. Itachi wasn't trying to kill Kabuto, but then again same applied to Sasuke... and Kabuto for the sake of Sasuke.
> 
> Itachi holding back is almost meaningless as Kabuto and Sasuke held back more.



He was very capable of protecting himself with Muki Tensei. Take Sasuke out of the equation and he would have been fine. In the chopped in half situation, if Itachi was looking straight at Kabuto and was focused on him, it would have been much different. 

In the case of the crow Clone, Itachi was actually the one that outsped Kabuto. I mean when the hell did he even make that clone lol? Not even the SM sensor Kabuto knew, that's how fast and slick he did it.



> Didn't Itachi lose an arm?



Sorry, I couldn't resist making a joke when you set me up for one. 

What Kyokan said.


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## Baroxio (Dec 9, 2013)

What the fuck was Kabuto holding back on? Killing Sasuke? Does Sasuke have a Branch Family seal on his forehead or something that prevents Kabuto from collecting Sasuke's eyes from his corspe? 

The only thing you could say he was "holding back on" was on his Edos, who were either completely irrelevant compared to the Uchiha Bros (Kabuto already had Kimimaro's abilities and Chiyo without her puppets isn't doing shit to the Uchiha Brothers who can cut her chakra strings) or Madara, who was expressly stated to require an incredible amount of time and chakra to summon that he didn't have available to waste when freaking Itachi comes out of nowhere. 

Plus the fact that Madara was currently soloing the Kage, so the only reason he would take Madara away from the battlefield would be if he considered Itachi a big enough threat to him that he would take the risk and take considerable steps back on his plans, allowing the Alliance ever more time to regroup and come after him.

Oh, and the most important point being that even if he did try to do so, it's not like he could actually control Madara. Madara knew the seals to releasing Edo Tensei from the beginning and would not have allowed himself to be reverse summoned and appear as if he were retreating the battle. Chances are he'd kill Kabuto himself if that happened.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Didn't Itachi lose an arm?



It was a clone 
this


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Losing an arm in Izanami means nothing
> 
> Should I also mention Kabuto getting his ass handed to him with a Suiton?



So you choose when moments of being owned matter and when they don't? 



Master Sephiroth said:


> He was very capable of protecting himself with Muki Tensei. Take Sasuke out of the equation and he would have been fine. In the chopped in half situation, if Itachi was looking straight at Kabuto and was focused on him, it would have been much different.



He got stabbed several times. Though you'd need to prove that a basic Susanoo can withstand Muki Tensei.

Itachi saw a guy fall down, suspiciously, and thought nothing of it. He was tricked and blitzed.



> In the case of the crow Clone, Itachi was actually the one that outsped Kabuto. I mean when the hell did he even make that clone lol? Not even the SM sensor Kabuto knew, that's how fast and slick he did it.



Sensors don't detect things that they aren't actively detecting. Why else didn't Tobirama detect Madara, and why didn't Madara detect Amaterasu?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It was a clone
> these four



Still suggests that if Itachi catches Kabuto, he can only lose his arm.



Baroxio said:


> What the fuck was Kabuto holding back on? Killing Sasuke?



Choosing to to kill the far superior Uchiha means a lot. Clearly the inferior Uchiha who held back the least wasn't a problem for Kabuto. Hence said superior Uchiha (Sasuke) ensured the inferior one wouldn't die.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Still suggests that if Itachi catches Kabuto, he can only lose his arm.



Or Kabuto needs to use Oral rebrith just to rip the arm of an Itach clone who wasn't trying to harm him


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Or Kabuto needs to use Oral rebrith just to rip the arm of an Itach clone who wasn't trying to harm him



Itachi couldn't harm Kabuto. Hence he opted for restraining Kabuto; the illusion only illustrates that Kabuto had several ways of harming Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Itachi couldn't harm Kabuto*. Hence he opted for restraining Kabuto; the illusion only illustrates that Kabuto had several ways of harming Itachi.



Correction, Itachi chose not to harm him.

Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Correction, Itachi chose not to harm him.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



That's nice, but Kabuto also chose not to do anything that would risk harming Sasuke. There's a reason Kishi kept Sasuke close to Itachi (aside from Itachi desperately needing Sasuke's assistance). 

Itachi held back his final Susanoo. Sasuke held back his final Susanoo and even his Perfect Susanoo with efficient Kagutsuchi use. Kabuto explicitly said he'd not try to arm Sasuke; Kabuto has the SM enhanced powers of the Sound 5 (including the Genjutsu which stomped Itachi); insane healing; Suigetsu's modded powers. Along with Orochimaru's jutsu enhanced.

A lot of which was used to ensure Sasuke wouldn't be harmed as Sasuke's safety>killing Itachi in Kabuto's mind. 

Now, if Kabuto felt he was able to take on a Rinnegan user and a Rikudou MS user like Obito. Obviously blitzing someone like Itachi is child's play.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's nice, but Kabuto also chose not to do anything that would risk harming Sasuke. There's a reason Kishi kept Sasuke close to Itachi (aside from Itachi desperately needing Sasuke's assistance).


Kabuto's techniques aside from Muki Tensei are mostly designed to capture or disable the enemy, they aren't lethal.




> Itachi held back his final Susanoo. Sasuke held back his final Susanoo and even his Perfect Susanoo with efficient Kagutsuchi use. Kabuto explicitly said he'd not try to arm Sasuke; Kabuto has the SM enhanced powers of the Sound 5 (including the Genjutsu which stomped Itachi); insane healing; Suigetsu's modded powers. Along with Orochimaru's jutsu enhanced.
> 
> A lot of which was used to ensure Sasuke wouldn't be harmed as Sasuke's safety>killing Itachi in Kabuto's mind.



I don't know what your point is, Kabuto used everything in his arsenal including the sound 5 shit. And as for genjutsu stompage, all I remember from that fight was Kabuto getting stomped by genjutsu, after all his rant about being immune to it 
Link removed




> Now, if Kabuto felt he was able to take on a Rinnegan user and a Rikudou MS user like Obito. Obviously blitzing someone like Itachi is child's play.



Thats cute but he already tried : Link removed
and failed : 
Link removed

Kabuto was lucky that Itachi was in a weakened EDO form.


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## ThunderCunt (Dec 9, 2013)

The important question who CANNOT Itachi blitz?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kabuto's techniques aside from Muki Tensei are mostly designed to capture or disable the enemy, they aren't lethal.



Techniques we know of, remember he's got a range of jutsu such as those of Orochimaru. Kimimaro's jutsu look like they could be lethal, Kidomaru's jutsu could be lethal too as well as the chakra attack used to chop Itachi.

This isn't counting the possible reshaping he could do with Suigetsu's ability.




> I don't know what your point is, Kabuto used everything in his arsenal including the sound 5 shit. And as for genjutsu stompage, all I remember from that fight was Kabuto getting stomped by genjutsu, after all his rant about being immune to it
> [1]



That's like saying Sasuke used everything in his arsenal in that battle.

The Genjutsu stompage is an important note as it perfectly illustrates how pivotal Sasuke was for Itachi's survival.




> Thats cute but he already tried : [1]
> and failed :
> [1]
> 
> Kabuto was lucky that Itachi was in a weakened EDO form.



Edo Itachi was stomped multiple times; the EMS user with Itachi prevented Kabuto from doing worse.

Unless Itachi is Hashirama, Tobirama or a Rikudou Madara: his Edo Tensei wasn't weakened at all.


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## Baroxio (Dec 9, 2013)

> Choosing to to kill the far superior Uchiha means a lot. Clearly the inferior Uchiha who held back the least wasn't a problem for Kabuto. Hence said superior Uchiha (Sasuke) ensured the inferior one wouldn't die.



Did you read the rest of my post? 

If you did, you'd realize that Kabuto had no reason to hold back on Sasuke; anything he wanted from him could have been gotten just as easily from Sasuke's corpse.

Furthermore, even if you wanted to you can't point out a point where Kabuto was "holding back," since he used all of his jutsu to their full efficacy on _both _Uchiha. 

So the argument that Kabuto was "holding back" against the Uchiha Bros is complete and utter bullshit.

As for your incorrect labeling of Sasuke and Itachi as the superior and inferior Uchiha respectively, while alliterative, is baseless at the time of the Kabuto fight, considering Itachi proves to have superior physical abilities, reactions, skill, intelligence and powers (Izanami) over his brother Sasuke.

Seriously dude, just stop.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> If you did, you'd realize that Kabuto had no reason to hold back on Sasuke; anything he wanted from him could have been gotten just as easily from Sasuke's corpse.



Except you're contradicting the manga. Kabuto explicitly said he'd not do anything to harm Sasuke.



> Furthermore, even if you wanted to you can't point out a point where Kabuto was "holding back," since he used all of his jutsu to their full efficacy on _both _Uchiha.



Trying to capture Sasuke during White Rage and not using Muki Tensei after traping the bros in Genjutsu could count.

So the argument that Kabuto was "holding back" against the Uchiha Bros is complete and utter bullshit.


> As for your incorrect labeling of Sasuke and Itachi as the superior and inferior Uchiha respectively, while alliterative, is baseless at the time of the Kabuto fight, considering Itachi proves to have superior physical abilities, reactions, skill, intelligence and powers (Izanami) over his brother Sasuke.



Itachi only has slightly better reaction times, better seal speed and Izanami over his brother. Sasuke's proven his superiority time and time again. For instance, Sasuke tends to fight stronger foes than Itachi with less assistance than the latter has. 

Sasuke>Itachi should be clear by now.


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## Baroxio (Dec 9, 2013)

> Trying to capture Sasuke during White Rage and not using Muki Tensei after traping the bros in Genjutsu could count.



Not using Muki Tensei, a jutsu already seen through and *hard countered* by a Magenkyou technique that both the Uchiha Bros clearly still have access to considering Itachi's use of Tsukyomi there, is not a case of "holding back."

In fact, use of Orochimaru in that case proved to be a superior option immediately afterwards, did it not?  

Had Kabuto used Muki Tensei instead of Orochimaru then the brothers would have just activated Susano immediately after breaking the genjutsu. You'd have to use an entirely arbitrary and subjective viewpoint that Muki Tensei attacks quicker than Orochimaru, something which is entirely baseless. And had Muki Tensei failed, then what could Kabuto do immediately afterwards when Itachi started baiting him with the threat of Izanami activation? 

Face it, Kabuto's move, which you consider to be "holding back" effectively put him in a much stronger position than the move you consider to be "not holding back." Does this make any sense? 

As for White Rage, what could he have accomplished in that scenario where Itachi still had the ability to use Susano and rebuff his attacks?

So according to you, Kabuto "not holding back" would have been either as effective or *less *effective than a Kabuto who is "holding back." 

Seriously? 



> Itachi only has slightly better reaction times, better seal speed and Izanami over his brother. Sasuke's proven his superiority time and time again. For instance, Sasuke tends to fight stronger foes than Itachi with less assistance than the latter has.



Are we in alternate world or something? While I don't disagree that current Sasuke with Perfect Susano is stronger than Edo Itachi, Sasuke at the time of this battle needed assistance or circumstance to win almost all of his battles in Part 2:

Great Snake Escape against Deidara, Itachi jobbing while Orochimaru helps out against Itachi, Team Taka helping against Killer Bee and the Kages, Zetsu and Obito saving Sasuke's ass against the Kages, Karin healing him and being momentarily distracting against Danzo, having his Team 7 battles interrupted when he was out of chakra and eyesight by Obito and Zetsu again, and then there's this battle, where he plays cheerleader to Itachi throughout.

This is in contrast to Itachi's defeat of Sasuke and Orochiamru at his death bed, his outplaying of Killer Bee (and even KCM Naruto simultaneously at one point), his repeated killings of Nagato (though to be fair, KB and Naruto did act as distraction and helped bust CT) and finally, *his* defeat of Kabuto, where Sasuke was considered nothing more than a helper. 

In short, this statement was bull. Sasuke > Itachi doesn't occur until he gains Perfect Susano.

And you can't deny Itachi having superior physical feats either considering how he managed to flash behind Killer Bee, someone Sasuke was having trouble simply avoiding despite having a far superior defensive weapon, as well as how he clashed with both KCM Naruto and Sage Mode Kabuto without failing in strength.

You're just ignoring canon if you don't also agree that Itachi has an intelligence advantage as well, considering Kabuto literally says as much throughout their battle. 

But I wouldn't put it past you.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> just help me and the others who are viewing the thread wrap our minds on how you mention  on one hand:"the Genjutsu stompage"(lol) "illustrates perfectly"(lol) how pivotal was Sasuke for Itachi's survival, yet on the other you don't even faintly mention both saved each other(team work 101)
> 
> but i know you Munboy, i know your Itachi downgrading agenda, or to refresh your memory should i call you by your dupe account: Mister. in any case i ended up negging you(look at the 1st paragraph for the why)



Perhaps everybody who doesn't say Itachi wins... doesn't have some agenda?!:amazed

There isn't a need to react so adversely when one disagrees with *your opinion* about Itachi's capabilities, Miyamoto Musashi.



Baroxio said:


> Not using Muki Tensei, a jutsu already seen through and *hard countered* by a Magenkyou technique that both the Uchiha Bros clearly still have access to considering Itachi's use of Tsukyomi there, is not a case of "holding back."



Itachi got poked like a microwave meal... that isn't a MS jutsu countering Muki Tensei.



> In fact, use of Orochimaru in that case proved to be a superior option immediately afterwards, did it not?



Orochimaru only has one jutsu?



> Had Kabuto used Muki Tensei instead of Orochimaru then the brothers would have just activated Susano immediately after breaking the genjutsu. You'd have to use an entirely arbitrary and subjective viewpoint that Muki Tensei attacks quicker than Orochimaru, something which is entirely baseless. And had Muki Tensei failed, then what could Kabuto do immediately afterwards when Itachi started baiting him with the threat of Izanami activation?



Susanoo would stop them from being crushed by an entire cave... the ribcage variant? 



> Face it, Kabuto's move, which you consider to be "holding back" effectively put him in a much stronger position than the move you consider to be "not holding back." Does this make any sense?



In a stronger position if you want to keep an EMS user alive, sure.



> As for White Rage, what could he have accomplished in that scenario where Itachi still had the ability to use Susano and rebuff his attacks?



Muki Tensei.




> Are we in alternate world or something? While I don't disagree that current Sasuke with Perfect Susano is stronger than Edo Itachi, Sasuke at the time of this battle needed assistance or circumstance to win almost all of his battles in Part 2:



Sasuke would need a lot of help if the majority of his arsenal are only effective when going for the kill.

Sasuke still fought mostly on his own. He didn't have opponents stronger than him backing him up against top tier foes.



> In short, this statement was bull. Sasuke > Itachi doesn't occur until he gains Perfect Susano.



You could say that, but you'd be wrong. Itachi himself kept saying the MS is the way to beat him.



> You're just ignoring canon if you don't also agree that Itachi has an intelligence advantage as well, considering Kabuto literally says as much throughout their battle.



Itachi has intelligence. But everything else Itachi allegedly has over Sasuke (such as physical feats) is grossly exaggerated.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> then why did you _conveniently _ omit the uchia brothers bailed each other out from the genjutsu instead of making it sound like Itachi was the only one who needed assistance?
> 
> oh no amount of shifting ground fallacy is going to get you out of this, boy



I'm talking Itachi's individual capabilities, not Sasuke's, my dear Sherlock. Hence talking about Sasuke's individual capabilities would be going off in a tangent. 

As you have gathered, I'm saying Kabuto is among the individuals Itachi isn't capable of beating, let alone blitzing.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Techniques we know of, remember he's got a range of jutsu such as those of Orochimaru. Kimimaro's jutsu look like they could be lethal, Kidomaru's jutsu could be lethal too as well as the chakra attack used to chop Itachi.
> 
> This isn't counting the possible reshaping he could do with Suigetsu's ability.



Kabuto was prepared to hit Itachi with all he got. He even went ahead and suggested he and Sasuke teamed up to kill Itachi.
So there is no need to assume that Kabuto held back any strong jutsu he had. 

He used chakra scapels on Itachi twice, he also used Suigetsu's liquification too, which isn't something offensive anyways.




> That's like saying Sasuke used everything in his arsenal in that battle.


Not really because Sasuke was specifically told by Itachi to hold back.
Neither of the brothers attacked Kabuto directly with any of their MS jutsu.



> The Genjutsu stompage is an important note as it perfectly illustrates how pivotal Sasuke was for Itachi's survival.


How so ? If anything Sasuke was a liability that Itachi needed to protect.





> Edo Itachi was stomped multiple times; the EMS user with Itachi prevented Kabuto from doing worse.


What ? No. Itachi was impaled by the stalagmites because he chose to protect Sasuke instead of himself.
He was chopped in half  by Kabuto because he deliberately lowered his Susano'O to lure Kabuto in to complete the loop.

Also the "EMS user" didn't use anything other than the stuff he used against Danzo so I don't see how him being an EMS user has any significance here.




> Unless Itachi is Hashirama, Tobirama or a Rikudou Madara: his Edo Tensei wasn't weakened at all.



Says who ? 

Edo tensei being inferior to the original is not something we didn't know already. 

Madara simply confirmed that those who were revived by Kabuto's tensei(even the ones who were "improved") are weaker than the originals.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> i think munboy got bullied by itachi fans or something irl







Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kabuto was prepared to hit Itachi with all he got. He even went ahead and suggested he and Sasuke teamed up to kill Itachi.




He was ready to... but then he mentioned Sasuke's presence affected his performance.



> Not really because Sasuke was specifically told by Itachi to hold back.
> Neither of the brothers attacked Kabuto directly with any of their MS jutsu.



No-one is denying that the bros held back.



> How so ? If anything Sasuke was a liability that Itachi needed to protect.



Without Sasuke, Itachi would be a drone again. We saw this. The Genjutsu, for instance.



> What ? No. Itachi was impaled by the stalagmites because he chose to protect Sasuke instead of himself.
> He was chopped in half  by Kabuto because he deliberately lowered his Susano'O to lure Kabuto in to complete the loop.



He chose to protect Sasuke, then apologised for underestimating him. He was chopped in half because for some reason he thought it was wise to think nothing of Kabuto dropping suddenly.



> Edo tensei being inferior to the original is not something we didn't know already.



Only for three shinobi.



> Madara simply confirmed that those who were revived by Kabuto's tensei(even the ones who were "improved") are weaker than the originals.



Madara confirmed that for himself. He was able to use his full power as Uchiha Madara, but not as a Rikudou Madara.


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