# Greatest Genjutsu User?



## ItachiNamikaze (Jun 17, 2012)

So people seem to generally think of Shisui as being a greater genjutsu user than Itachi for one very (weak) reason. They say that because he had Koto he is better because Koto is the strongest genjutsu. This is wrong for 2 reasons:

1) Koto isn't necessarily the strongest genjutsu. Sure its ability is amazing, but it can be overcome by anyone, can only be used once every 10 years and doesnt actually harm anyone. Sure it only helps the user and is better to have than not to have, but a genjutsu like tsukiyomi can take the target right out of the fight and very few people are able to break it. So its like comparing apples and oranges, both jutsu are amazing for different abilities.

2) Having just one powerful jutsu doesnt make someone better at ninjutsu than someone else. For example, Narutos rasenshuriken is one of the best ninjutsu, but would anyone consider naruto to be better at ninjutsu than say kakshi, sasuke, madara etc? Hopefully not.

So based on what weve seen, Itachi should still be considered the undisputed king of genjutsu imo


----------



## αce (Jun 17, 2012)

> Sure its ability is amazing, but it can be overcome by anyone



What?



Best genjutsu users

1. Shisui
2. Itachi
3. Tobi/Madara

Although if Tobi/Madara both have Izanagi and Izanami, then they jump to the number 2 spot.


----------



## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 17, 2012)

I recall Shisui having the strongest genjutsu. Doesn't necessary mean that he's the strongest/best or most effective genjutsu user out there.

1. Itachi - finger genjutsu is a skill that nothing comes close to, he has literally one paneled kage level shinobi's with genjutsu.

Second is probably Madara.


----------



## BringerOfCarnage (Jun 17, 2012)

Itachi had better all round genjutsu IMO.

However, Shisui's trump card genjutsu (Kotoamatsukami) is stronger than Itachi's (Tsukuyomi).

Itachi has Izanami (and potentially Izanagi) however, so it's hard to rate them.

I'd say:
Itachi/Shisui
Tobi

Madara would probably be above Itachi and Shisui,  but he hasn't displayed the necessary feats.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jun 17, 2012)

Shisui's genjutsu is so good that you NEVER know your under it. And not just that, he controls you. So your being controlled and you can never know. Seems pretty fucking good. And his base genjutsu can manipulate your thoughts.

So take person out of fight or make them fight with you? Which you do you seriously find better?  And it better not be tsukiyomi.


----------



## eyeknockout (Jun 17, 2012)

1. itachi- has a multitude of amazing genjutsu feats and talent. plus he has shisui's own technique

2. shisui- kotoamatsukami

3. tobi-controlled yagura and has izanagi


----------



## DeK3iDE (Jun 17, 2012)

If i recall correctly, Shisui was already stated to have been the Uchiha's greatest genjutsu user


----------



## Bloo (Jun 17, 2012)

The general confusion is that the japanese symbol for "ultimate" translates to "most powerful", which means a more accurate translation describing Kotoamatsukami would be that it is "an ultimate genjutsu" not "the ultimate genjutsu". Other genjutsu to be described like this are Itachi's Tsukuyomi and Izanagi. 

So pretty much that ranks them on the same level (Izanami probably as well), so therefore both Itachi and Shisui had an ultimate genjutsu. So I don't think having Kotoamatsukami instantly places Shisui over Itachi, because Itachi's genjutsu is equally as powerful. Especially when you compare it to other Tsukuyomi used by other shinobi like Sasuke, it's significantly more powerful.

All in all, I think Itachi is the stronger genjutsu user because he has more feats. Let's compare:






Itachi

Tsukuyomi+
Izanami
Ephemeral
Magen: Kyō Tenchi-ten
Magen: Kasegui no Jutsu
Shisui

Kotoamatsukami
Overall, Itachi is the better genjutsu user until shown otherwise. Which makes sense, as Itachi lived longer which means he had more time to develop his skill in genjutsu proficiency. Had Shisui lived longer and had gotten more panel time, I could see him and Itachi as being equals, neither being better than another.


IchLiebe said:


> Shisui's genjutsu is so good that you NEVER know your under it. And not just that, he controls you. So your being controlled and you can never know. Seems pretty fucking good. And his base genjutsu can manipulate your thoughts.
> 
> So take person out of fight or make them fight with you? Which you do you seriously find better? And it better not be tsukiyomi.


One skill doesn't mean one is better in a form, but you will argue that Sakura is better than Itachi in genjutsu if the oppurtunity presented itself so this doesn't shock me.


Big Bad Wolf said:


> If i recall correctly, Shisui was already stated to have been the Uchiha's greatest genjutsu user


Shisui was by Killerbee.
Itachi was by Ao (a more reliable source), what's your point?


----------



## Lahickson (Jun 17, 2012)

why would you even try to argue this. its been stated he was the best and at the time he was alive he was the strongest of his clan. i think one of the reasons he killed himself was because he couldnt choose between the village and the clan.


----------



## Ico (Jun 17, 2012)

Shisui was said to have the best genjutsu, but overall Itachi takes it with what we've seen from him.


----------



## kanpyo7 (Jun 18, 2012)

I've always viewed it this way; Shisui was the strongest user of _inceptive_ genjutsu, Itachi was the strongest user of _deceptive_ genjutsu.


----------



## Bloo (Jun 18, 2012)

Lahickson said:


> why would you even try to argue this. its been stated he was the best and at the time he was alive he was the strongest of his clan. i think one of the reasons he killed himself was because he couldnt choose between the village and the clan.


Similar statements of him being the best have been made for Itachi as well, and Itachi has more feats. Also the person that called Shisui the strongest genjutsu user was Killerbee... No explanation needed. When he was alive he was known as the only other genius besides Itachi, they were roughly the same.


----------



## DUNGEON (Jun 18, 2012)

What is the use of that power that makes you king for just one day and then for the next 10 years leaves you nothing more than a fodder.
Shisui's power is pretty great but at the same time its lacking the consistency.
If i were to rate then:

1. Itachi
2. Madara
3. Tobi/Shisui
4. Izuna(madara's level)
5. Sauce


----------



## KingBoo (Jun 18, 2012)

that sound girl with the flute. she placed ITACHI in a genjutsu. if you want proof...



*Spoiler*: __ 



this is too painful for me. of course i'm gonna say itachi is the greatest genjutsu user.





or the crow that has a part of itachi's power. that crow did defeat itachi.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 18, 2012)

Shisui was considered the best genjutsu user of the Uchiha Clan. Itachi didn't dispute that claim at all, and given Koto's abilities it means he probably is. Following or before Shisui, it should be Madara and Tobi, considering they have been able to control Kurama and perfect Jinchuriki respectfully. Then we have Itachi, then Sasuke.


----------



## Necessary Evil (Jun 18, 2012)

_Itachi_ of course; no competition.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 18, 2012)

Necessary Evil said:


> _Itachi_ of course; no competition.


Shisui, Madara, and Tobi are all better than he is. Hell I'd wager Fukasaku and Shima are at or above Itachi's level since they have the feat of catching a Rinnegan user in a genjutsu. And of course, Tayuya's genjutsu was able to catch Itachi and he wasn't able to break out of it.


----------



## BlinkST (Jun 18, 2012)

Itachi soloes


----------



## Treerone (Jun 18, 2012)

Itachi is the most versatile Genjutsu user. Shisui has the greatest genjutsu, but he isn't the best user.


----------



## KakashiOnoki (Jun 18, 2012)

IchLiebe said:


> Shisui's genjutsu is so good that you NEVER know your under it. And not just that, he controls you. So your being controlled and you can never know. Seems pretty fucking good. And his base genjutsu can manipulate your thoughts.
> 
> So take person out of fight or make them fight with you? Which you do you seriously find better?  And it better not be tsukiyomi.



Well if the question is: "who has the best genjutsu?" Then it would be Shisui no doubt. The issue I have with calling him the best genjutsu user is we never seen how he battled with his genjutsu in the manga. Also IF danzo was using Shisui's Triumph card then it was broken by Ao alot easier than it's been hyped. 

Itachi on the other has you asking from the very begining of the battle: "Am I already under a genjutsu?" From what I have seen I beleive Tobi/Madara can do basically anything Itachi can do with the only difference being the way they use it in battle. In battle from what we have seen I would say Itachi is the best with Madara/Tobi being right there too.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 18, 2012)

Treerone said:


> Itachi is the most versatile Genjutsu user. Shisui has the greatest genjutsu, but he isn't the best user.


...except the manga said Shisui was the best genjutsu user in the Uchiha Clan and Itachi didn't dispute it. Not only that, given their greater Dojutsu ability, shouldn't Madara and Tobi be better?

And that's not even going into the Toad Sages, Tayuya, etc.


----------



## Grendel (Jun 18, 2012)

So we are assuming shisui, who was called the best, only had koto?


----------



## Treerone (Jun 18, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...except the manga said Shisui was the best genjutsu user in the Uchiha Clan and Itachi didn't dispute it. Not only that, given their greater Dojutsu ability, shouldn't Madara and Tobi be better?
> 
> And that's not even going into the Toad Sages, Tayuya, etc.



That was pre-MS, pre-Massacre. Shit was awhile ago man, way before the start of the manga.

I'm not going to touch on Tobi because we need to learn more about his abilities first. Madara is more Michael Bay style than genjutsu style. 

Itachi's arsenal consist mainly of genjutsus.


----------



## crisler (Jun 18, 2012)

the reputation that shisui had really doesn't mean a lot

the whole point of itachis' character is that he was always hidden. bee hardly knew anything about the uchiha and the ms, you expect him to even know who itachi was? he's the same guy that other clansmen thought was a brat, only to get beaten down when it was 3:1. reputation, fame, known, doesn't matter when we're talking about itachi here. he was a hidden man.

and besides, when shisui had that reputation, itachi was a small kid who was training. he didn't even have the ms for god's sake.

we're not talking about who's had the strongest genjutsu, because that's plain simple: shisui. 

we're talking about who was greatest overall in genjutsu, and that would include a lot of features. that mist guy never thought of shisui when zetsu copies attacked, did he? instead he directly thought of itachi, and shikaku did the same.

compare naruto and jiraiya. naruto has the stronger ninjutsu, being FRS, but is he a greater ninjuts user than jiraiya? some would say yes, some would say no. i tend to believe jiraiya was better in ninjutsu than naruto, though naruto had the strongest weapon.

it's the same. shisui had stronger genjutsu, but itachi seem better overall. there isn't an obvious answer to this.

and about madara... all he displayed was something even sasuke can do, and he wasn't hyped for genjutsu either. i think we should wait till we see more. if we judge him for what we have seen, he doesn't seem impressive, and personally i believe his genjutsu won't be that great, because he reminds me of sasuke both in personality and fighting style, and sasuke isn't really a genjutsu specialist.


----------



## Oga Tatsumi (Jun 18, 2012)

Shisui soloes.
Itachi thought of him as a big brother.
If I remember well, Shisui is praised as the greatest genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan.
Shisui>Itachi.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 18, 2012)

Treerone said:


> That was pre-MS, pre-Massacre. Shit was awhile ago man, way before the start of the manga.
> 
> I'm not going to touch on Tobi because we need to learn more about his abilities first. Madara is more Michael Bay style than genjutsu style.
> 
> Itachi's arsenal consist mainly of genjutsus.


Prove Itachi didn't have the MS back then. Not only that, again, Itachi never disputed it. Why wouldn't Shisui have several genjutsus?


----------



## Seph (Jun 18, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Prove Itachi didn't have the MS back then. Not only that, again, Itachi never disputed it. Why wouldn't Shisui have several genjutsus?



How else do you suppose he got the MS? With his penis?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 18, 2012)

Seph said:


> How else do you suppose he got the MS? With his penis?


Given how Itachi is now, I doubt he had to kill anyone to get his MS due to Kishimoto's Creator Pet tendencies with him.


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Jun 18, 2012)

Itachi is the best. Which is stronger/faster between Izanami/Tsukuyomi and Kotoamatsukami? Idk but Itachi has other actual feats that would place him at #1.

So I'd say:

1.) Itachi
2.) Shisui
3.) Tobi/Madara(myabe on Madara)
4.) Tayuya(sound genjutsu is a bitch)
5.) 2nd Mizukage
5.)


----------



## Shaz (Jun 18, 2012)

Why ask a question which has already been addressed in the manga itself?

Shisui takes it. Even Itachi knows this.


----------



## Edo Madara (Jun 18, 2012)

shisui and itachi have different genjutsu ability that unique to each other

shisui specialisation is mind control, his base genjutsu have the ability to manipulate someone thought without them realize it with kotoamatsukami as ultimate mind control genjutsu

itachi specialisation is knock out genjutsu, he use genjutsu to defeat his enemy with tsukuyomi as ultimate knock out genjutsu

if both of them fight in battle of genjutsu I say shisui wins because it already shown that kotoamatsuki can mind control itachi


----------



## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Jun 18, 2012)

Kotoamatsuki has the power to oneshot even Itachi. Shisui wins hands down.


----------



## Edo Madara (Jun 18, 2012)

and Shisui have susanoo, every MS user have susano

kakashi dont have it because he only had 1 MS


----------



## Dat Uchiha Itachi (Jun 18, 2012)

Itachi is the strongest genjutsu user. He is the undisputed King, not only does he have Tsukuyomi, but also his regular genjutsu is extremely powerful and few have a counter to it.
Overall, the King still soloes.


----------



## Vergil642 (Jun 18, 2012)

Candidates.

Itachi, Shisui, Tobi.

Itachi: most numerous feats, has shown he's capable of using every type of Genjutsu from reality mimicking to mind control. Has Tsukuyomi and Izanami (probably Izanagi too therefore), an epic Tier 5 stat and hype up the ass.

Shisui: has Koto Amatsukami, a basic mind control Genjutsu and is hyped as being the best of the Uchiha.

Tobi: can likely use Tsukuyomi (assuming Mugen Tsukuyomi is Tsukuyomi on Jyuubi steroids), can use a truly epic level mind control Genjutsu (on a supposedly perfect Jinchuuriki no less).

I'd give it to Itachi. He's got casually the best feats (Shisui for example has no feats) on a lower level and on the upper levels Tsukuyomi and Izanami, in my eyes at least, match Tobi's feat of controlling Yagura. Tobi's Yagura controlling feat is the best in the manga of it's kind (beating out the hype-only Shisui at his own game) and he likely can use Mugen Tsukuyomi. Shisui's all hype and although he seems to have the best mind-control Genjutsu (even Tobi wanted dat eye) his seeming lack of versatility hurts him too much to put him above Tobi and Itachi.

Wildcard: Madara. Just being big-bad Uchiha gives him hype enough to likely hang with these guys in my opinion. He lacks feats and direct Genjutsu hype but nevertheless I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who would expect to see him bust an epic Genjutsu at some point.


----------



## iJutsu (Jun 18, 2012)

Danzo never used koto during the summit. He never unsealed it. Think about the ninja that ambushed him before that, there would've been no reason to expose it and risk it getting hit by fodders if he could use it while it's covered up.


----------



## lathia (Jun 18, 2012)

#1 Shisui 

Tobi/Madara/Itachi can fight for the 2nd spot. Considering that Tobi/Madara wants to use Tsukuyomi on the moon, the only differentiable attribute between these 3 is, 


Jinchuriki Genjutsu vs Finger Genjutsu


----------



## Closet Pervert (Jun 18, 2012)

This is easy, of course Nidaime Mizukage. Bunch of fucking n00bs still think Kabuto controlled _him_, shm. And that he was sealed.


eyeknockout said:


> 3. tobi-controlled yagura and has izanagi


That was probably Madara. Notice the long hair, remember that Madara knew of Nagato so he couldn't have died permanently in The Valley.


Bloo said:


> Shisui was by Killerbee.
> Itachi was by Ao (a more reliable source), what's your point?


Where did Ao say that and what did he say exactly?


KakashiOnoki said:


> Well if the question is: "who has the best genjutsu?" Then it would be Shisui no doubt. The issue I have with calling him the best genjutsu user is we never seen how he battled with his genjutsu in the manga. Also IF danzo was using Shisui's Triumph card then it was broken by Ao alot easier than it's been hyped.


Ao has Byakugan. And i'm not sure he broke it. I don't remember, maybe he did.


----------



## Sniffers (Jun 18, 2012)

Shisui was known as the strongest genjutsu-user before Itachi made a name for himself. The true extent of Itachi's genjutsu abilities wasn't public knowledge either as no-one knew about him having Izanami, which is a big deal.

I'd say Itachi should've surpassed Shisui since Itachi basically has shown to wield ALL the ultimate genjutsu the Sharingan has to offer bar probably Izanagi. He wielded Tsukuyomi, Izanami and Koto Amatsukami through proxy. Not just that, he is apparently the only one to be able to cast a large scale controlling genjutsu and has genjutsu prowess that is not Sharingan related.

My list would be:
Itachi
Shisui
Tobi/Madara


----------



## ? (Jun 18, 2012)

Shisui. He was confirmed as the best in the Uchiha clan.


----------



## Namikaze Minato Flash (Jun 18, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Similar statements of him being the best have been made for Itachi as well, and Itachi has more feats. Also the person that called Shisui the strongest genjutsu user was Killerbee... No explanation needed. When he was alive he was known as the only other genius besides Itachi, they were roughly the same.



Statements tend to blur things a lot especially when you have Zetsu saying Tsukuyomi contained in Itachi's left eye is the strongest Genjutsu and then Killer Bee following up with Shisui being the Uchiha Clan's strongest Genjutsu user. In my opinion, the roles should be reversed because not only was Itachi shown to be the most versatile and proficient in his use of Genjutsu, but he has had a 100% success rate since his introduction to the manga. Now Shisui being the "strongest Genjutsu user" could mean he can replicate all these feats and more, so it's really hard to call it objectively...


----------



## IchLiebe (Jun 18, 2012)

Shisui, Naruto, Bee, Sasuke, and Madara can break all of Itachi's genjutsu's. No one can break Shisui's.


----------



## wibisana (Jun 18, 2012)

where is the hell Jiraia


----------



## αce (Jun 18, 2012)

> where is the hell Jiraia



You mean Ma and Pa right?
Not Jiraiya's genjutsu.


----------



## Ghost (Jun 18, 2012)

Itachi.

**


----------



## sinjin long (Jun 18, 2012)

could everyone stop giving characters feats of izanagi and izanami,like its their own genjutsu?

anyone with a sharingan can potentially use either of these jutsu.

its not a character specific ability,except for perhaps danzo as he had the 10 sharingans for the express purpose of using izanagi multiple times.

theoretically he could also of used izanami 10 times.

kakashi and sasuke have never shown to use izanagi or izanami,but both of them are able to. all it takes is possessing sharingan.


----------



## Sniffers (Jun 18, 2012)

^ That's like saying everyone can use Edo Tensei or Hiraishin. The point is, you need to learn how to use the technique. Just having the tool is not enough when you don't know how to use it. Skill is what it is about.




♠Ace♠ said:


> You mean Ma and Pa right?
> Not Jiraiya's genjutsu.


Indeed. Let's give the credit to the people who actually deserve it.


----------



## Bloo (Jun 18, 2012)

IchLiebe said:


> Shisui, Naruto, Bee, Sasuke, and Madara can break all of Itachi's genjutsu's. No one can break Shisui's.


Ao certainly did, and on top of that. No one has broken Itachi's taijutsu when he isn't trying to lose. So saying these people (Naruto isn't one of them so I don't know why he's in the list) can break Itachi's more basic genjutsu but say none can break Shisui's most powerful genjutsu is bias and subjective as hell.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jun 18, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Ao certainly did, and on top of that. No one has broken Itachi's taijutsu when he isn't trying to lose. So saying these people (Naruto isn't one of them so I don't know why he's in the list) can break Itachi's more basic genjutsu but say none can break Shisui's most powerful genjutsu is bias and subjective as hell.



The way I figure the only way people lived against Shisui is that he let them. Or influenced their minds to not fight. Uchiha's with MS can definitely break it as said by Itachi himself. Naruto and Bee are perfect jins that can break any genjutsu.

And I'm not saying it's the most powerful genjutsu but how do you break a genjutsu that you never know your under. 1v1 against Shisui is almost certain death.


----------



## Danzio (Jun 18, 2012)

1.Shisui 
2.Tobi
3.Madara
4.Itachi

Sasuke and  Kurenai are up there to.


----------



## Haruhifan21 (Jun 18, 2012)

There's a crucial hole in saying that Shisui > Itachi because he was said to be the best in the Uchiha clan.

How do you know Itachi hasn't *improved*? It has been almost 10 years since Shisui died and until Itachi died.


----------



## lathia (Jun 18, 2012)

rainyrabbit said:


> There's a crucial hole in saying that Shisui > Itachi because he was said to be the best in the Uchiha clan.
> 
> How do you know Itachi hasn't *improved*? It has been almost 10 years since Shisui died and until Itachi died.



For the same reason that people don't believe Raikage A improved in speed ever since he met Minato. Both Shisui and Minato respectively carry the "ultimate" jutsu. 


Will Naruto/A be as fast as Hiraishin? Almost, but no. 
Will any of Itachi's genjutsu compare to Kotoamatsukami? Almost, but no.


----------



## Danzio (Jun 18, 2012)

rainyrabbit said:


> There's a crucial hole in saying that Shisui > Itachi because he was said to be the best in the Uchiha clan.
> 
> How do you know Itachi hasn't *improved*? It has been almost 10 years since Shisui died and until Itachi died.



How do you know that he did? 

Killer B obviously knew of him and he declared Shisui the best, you would need to prove that Itachi surpassed him.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jun 18, 2012)

Well Tobi, Madara, and Shisui have the more powerful genjutsu and or better feats however Itachi is the overall best genjutsu user in the manga since well it is mainly his fighting style

In power I would say:
Tobi
Madara
Shusui/Danzo
Itachi

Controlling tailed beasts is more impressive then controlling a person imo

In overall ability:
Itachi
Tobi
Danzo
Madara - Lack of feats besides summoning the Nine Tails
Shusui - Lack of feats outside of Koto but is hyped to be the best genjutsu user


----------



## Hexa (Jun 18, 2012)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> If i recall correctly, Shisui was already stated to have been the Uchiha's greatest genjutsu user


Not in all of history.  There may have been a greater Uchiha genjutsu user before his time or after his time.


----------



## Bloo (Jun 18, 2012)

Danzio said:


> How do you know that he did?
> 
> Killer B obviously knew of him and he declared Shisui the best, you would need to prove that Itachi surpassed him.


You do realize that Bee is an unreliable source right? When Shikaku and Ao, both much more intelligent and reliable sources of the topic, had to identify a possible deceased shinobi to be able to control allied shinobi forces from a long distance, the only one they identified and established as the *only *one capable to do so was Itachi. Shisui, someone who actually fought Ao, wasn't even mentioned Ao still brought up Itachi and not Shisui even though he actually fought him in battle. So when it comes to knowing Shisui's skillset, Ao has the edge over Killerbee, and obviously Ao wasn't as impressed with him as he was with Itachi.


IchLiebe said:


> The way I figure the only way people lived against Shisui is that he let them. Or influenced their minds to not fight. Uchiha's with MS can definitely break it as said by Itachi himself. Naruto and Bee are perfect jins that can break any genjutsu.
> 
> And I'm not saying it's the most powerful genjutsu but how do you break a genjutsu that you never know your under. *1v1 against Shisui is almost certain death*.


That's why *Ao* fought him and survived. And even still, Ao still identified Itachi as the only capable shinobi ever to be able to control allied shinobi from a huge distance. Which means, in Ao's (a man who fought Shisui, while Killerbee did not) opinion Itachi>Shisui.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jun 18, 2012)

Bloo said:


> That's why *Ao* fought him and survived. And even still, Ao still identified Itachi as the only capable shinobi ever to be able to control allied shinobi from a huge distance. Which means, in Ao's (a man who fought Shisui, while Killerbee did not) opinion Itachi>Shisui.



That adds more to the belief that Shisui severly held back against Ao. As Shisui's genjutsu is nothing but controlling people.


----------



## Bloo (Jun 18, 2012)

IchLiebe said:


> That adds more to the belief that Shisui severly held back against Ao.


This just shows you have *no* solid facts to back up your claim. As we have only seen about 5 face panels of him and you're already coming to conclusions of how he fought.


> As Shisui's genjutsu *is nothing but* controlling people.


Itachi, as stated by Ao and Shikaku, has mind control genjutsu as well, Tobi and Madara do as well also, so if you say Shisui only has mind control genjutsu it makes him a much worse genjutsu user then we're supposed to believe.


----------



## Chaotic Gangsta (Jun 18, 2012)

I don't understand why people are quick to say Shisui "because of Databook"  That said he had the most POWERFUL genjutsu. That doesn't make him the greatest. Itachi by far is the greatest Genjutsu user, PERIOD. Feat-wise, variety, calibre/prowess, he's exhibited the best.


----------



## Bloo (Jun 18, 2012)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> I don't understand why people are quick to say Shisui "because of Databook"  That said he had the most POWERFUL genjutsu. That doesn't make him the greatest. Itachi by far is the greatest Genjutsu user, PERIOD. Feat-wise, variety, calibre/prowess, he's exhibited the best.


People say Shisui is the most powerful, not because of the databook, but because Killerbee said he was the most powerful and the only genjutsu of his we have seen is Kotoamatsukami.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jun 18, 2012)

Bloo said:


> This just shows you have *no* solid facts to back up your claim. As we have only seen about 5 face panels of him and you're already coming to conclusions of how he fought.



He was a pacifist like Itachi. They had the same philosophy. And if he can control your mind and change how you think and you never know, he obviously didn't fight at full strength against Ao.



> Itachi, as stated by Ao and Shikaku, has mind control genjutsu as well, Tobi and Madara do as well also, so if you say Shisui only has mind control genjutsu it makes him a much worse genjutsu user then we're supposed to believe.



I know. But the fact that they thought people were being controlled and they automatically thought Itachi shows that Shisui never controlled people in front of Ao meaning he held back. And how is he the worst. Itachi said Shisui's genjutsu is so strong that he could control them and they won't even notice.
Link removed
Think about, Shisui saw Madara and used his genjutsu. Madara would forever do what Shisui wanted him to. That's a good genjutsu.


----------



## Chaotic Gangsta (Jun 18, 2012)

Bloo said:


> People say Shisui is the most powerful, not because of the databook, but because Killerbee said he was the most powerful and the only genjutsu of his we have seen is Kotoamatsukami.



I'm aware of that but what the hell does that mean? People should know now that some analysises made by the characters hold no validity. Prime examples: Tobi and Zatsu. Koto may be a powerful Genjutsu but that doesn't necessarily equate to greatness in Genjutsu in general. In case people have forgotten, Itachi possesses the exact technique and showcased an ever greater feat with it by negating Kabuto's control. I don't see how anyone could parallel to Itachi's calibre in Genjutsu at all.


----------



## Bloo (Jun 18, 2012)

IchLiebe said:


> He was a pacifist like Itachi. They had the same philosophy. And if he can control your mind and change how you think and you never know, he obviously didn't fight at full strength against Ao.


Byuakugan can see through genjutsu, on top of that we don't know how the battle went at all, we don't know if it was a tie, who won, or if it got interrupted. Quit playing Author and go by what we do know and accept what we don't know, and don't try filling in the blanks to fit your argument. It's horrible debating.


> I know. But the fact that they thought people were being controlled and they automatically thought Itachi shows that Shisui never controlled people in front of Ao meaning he held back.


Like I said before, speculation on how a featless character fought isn't going to help you. It just makes you look even more biased.


> And how is he the worst. Itachi said Shisui's genjutsu is so strong that he could control them and they won't even notice.


Never said he was the worst, I said that when you said that he *only* has mind control genjutsu while every other formidable Uchiha genjutsu user has that as well, it actually hurts your argument and would mean his versatility is shit and he isn't that good. I was expanding upon your statement to prove it actually hurt your claim.


> him dodge AFTER we see the flames.
> Think about, Shisui saw Madara and used his genjutsu. Madara would forever do what Shisui wanted him to. That's a good genjutsu.


Kotoamtsukami doesn't work like that, it works by imprinting a code/command into the victim's mind. Itachi imprinted the command of 'Protect Konoha', once that command is imprinted then the jutsu can't be used for another 10 years. Danzo probably imprinted 'Make Danzo leader of Allied Forces' on Mifune. Also, once Mifune was aware he was being manipulated it seemed the genjutsu was broken because his psyche retaliated against it. It's not a perfect genjutsu.


----------



## sinjin long (Jun 18, 2012)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> I'm aware of that but what the hell does that mean? People should know now that some analysises made by the characters hold no validity. Prime examples: Tobi and Zatsu. Koto may be a powerful Genjutsu but that doesn't necessarily equate to greatness in Genjutsu in general. In case people have forgotten, Itachi possesses the exact technique and showcased an ever greater feat with it by negating Kabuto's control. I don't see how anyone could parallel to Itachi's calibre in Genjutsu at all.



^uh no.

itachi possesses SHISUI'S MS, it is still shisui's(not itachis's)jutsu,and its still shisui's feat of his jutsu negating kabuto's control,not itachi's. 

now if itachi could perform KOTO with his own MS,that would be different. but he can't.

by your definition,it would actually be naruto's feat anyway.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jun 18, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Byuakugan can see through genjutsu, on top of that we don't know how the battle went at all, we don't know if it was a tie, who won, or if it got interrupted. Quit playing Author and go by what we do know and accept what we don't know, and don't try filling in the blanks to fit your argument. It's horrible debating.



How does it see through genjutsu? And I'm not filling in blanks. I'm saying Shisui obviously didn't use his MS meaning he held back.



> Like I said before, speculation on how a featless character fought isn't going to help you. It just makes you look even more biased.



Read above.



> Never said he was the worst, I said that when you said that he *only* has mind control genjutsu while every other formidable Uchiha genjutsu user has that as well, it actually hurts your argument and would mean his versatility is shit and he isn't that good. I was expanding upon your statement to prove it actually hurt your claim.



But people know they are being controlled. Manda and Kyuubi both knew they were being controlled. With Shisui he controls your mind and you NEVER know your under a genjutsu.



> Kotoamtsukami doesn't work like that, it works by imprinting a code/command into the victim's mind. Itachi imprinted the command of 'Protect Konoha', once that command is imprinted then the jutsu can't be used for another 10 years. Danzo probably imprinted 'Make Danzo leader of Allied Forces' on Mifune. Also, once Mifune was aware he was being manipulated it seemed the genjutsu was broken because his psyche retaliated against it. It's not a perfect genjutsu.



Imprint do my work for me. Madara does it. That genjutsu influences your mind not control it. And he "broke" it because it was pointed out and he changed his mind. I don't know if he even broke out because all it does is influence your thoughts. So once he found out, he didn't want to trust Danzo anymore.


----------



## Chaotic Gangsta (Jun 18, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> ^uh no.
> 
> itachi possesses SHISUI'S MS, it is still shisui's(not itachis's)*jutsu,and its still shisui's feat of his jutsu negating kabuto's control*,not itachi's.
> 
> ...



That Itachi USED. It doesn't matters who's it is Itachi's capable of using it and that's all that matters. It may be Shisui's but it's also Itachi's. Get out of here with that


----------



## Bloo (Jun 18, 2012)

IchLiebe said:


> How does it see through genjutsu? And I'm not filling in blanks. I'm saying Shisui obviously didn't use his MS meaning he held back.


Yes you are, not a single panel has been shown of him fighting and you assume how he fights and what happened in that battle. That's filling in the blanks. Get over it.

It's like me saying that since we don't know how Shisui died and we do know that you have to kill your best friend to gain MS, then that probably means Danzo used Koto on Shisui after he took his eye, and Danzo made him try to kill Sasuke and Itachi killed Shisui to keep him from doing it, got MS from killing his best friend, and stole his MS. But we should both be able to assess the stupidity in that claim. That kind of evidence is absolute garbage in a debate.


> Read above.


Read above. 


> But people know they are being controlled. Manda and Kyuubi both knew they were being controlled. With Shisui he controls your mind and you NEVER know your under a genjutsu.


If that's still his only form of genjutsu, then his genjutsu versatility is shit and he isn't that good of a genjutsu user. This comment of yours proves nothing because it doesn't expand upon his versatility and still hurts your claim. The thread is about the best genjutsu user, not the best user of the most powerful genjutsu. This means we look at versatility, and how well-rounded one is.


> Imprint do my work for me. Madara does it. That genjutsu influences your mind not control it. And he "broke" it because it was pointed out and he changed his mind. I don't know if he even broke out because all it does is influence your thoughts. So once he found out, he didn't want to trust Danzo anymore.


I'm glad you agree with me, so it's _easy_ to break unlike Itachi's genjutsu. I'm we agree for once.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jun 18, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Yes you are, not a single panel has been shown of him fighting and you assume how he fights and what happened in that battle. That's filling in the blanks. Get over it.
> 
> It's like me saying that since we don't know how Shisui died and we do know that you have to kill your best friend to gain MS, then that probably means Danzo used Koto on Shisui after he took his eye, and Danzo made him try to kill Sasuke and Itachi killed Shisui to keep him from doing it, got MS from killing his best friend, and stole his MS. But we should both be able to assess the stupidity in that claim. That kind of evidence is absolute garbage in a debate.



IF Shisui controlled Ao and Ao escaped and lived then when People were being controlled he would say "It has to be Itachi OR SHISUI" but he didn't.

That second paragraph just confused me. We know how shisui died. Itachi said how.



> If that's still his only form of genjutsu, then his genjutsu versatility is shit and he isn't that good of a genjutsu user. This comment of yours proves nothing because it doesn't expand upon his versatility and still hurts your claim. The thread is about the best genjutsu user, not the best user of the most powerful genjutsu. This means we look at versatility, and how well-rounded one is.



Versatility doesn't always mean stronger. Oonoki with jinton beats most people who do have versatility.



> I'm glad you agree with me, so it's _easy_ to break unlike Itachi's genjutsu. I'm we agree for once.



No. Koto isn't easy to break if it can be broke. His reg genjutsu can be "broke" if you have it pointed out. In 1v1 no ones there to tell you.


----------



## Six (Jun 18, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Prove Itachi didn't have the MS back then. Not only that, again, Itachi never disputed it. Why wouldn't Shisui have several genjutsus?



Please, enough of this he didn't dispute it nonsense. What benefit would it serve Itachi to start acting like a brat saying no me no me i was the best genjutsu user. Answer that, is it in his character to answer petty arguments like a brat?

Shisui *WAS* the best genutsu user but Itachi has long since surpassed him in the art. Itachi was already a natural genius so his rate of growth was tremendous. The guy can perform genjutsju on a person just by pointing a single finger at them. Not many things in the manga come close to that. That single feat right there shows skill and proficiency to a whole other level.

Having the strongest genjutsu does not equate to one being the best and most versatile user. We have no feats from shisui and only his hype while kabuto was so scared of going up against Itachi's genjutsu that he sealed his eyes despite being a sage.

I can tell that you hate itachi but please stop this argument. You sound like a foolish little child who hates somebody so much that they will do whatever they can to make somebody sound or look bad.

One minute you go and say that Itachi is this unstoppable Mary Sue like character and is unbeatable and the next you go and harp on about him not being a competent genjutsu user. Please just do everybody a favor and just stop replying to Itachi threads. If you hate the guy so much then just stay away from any thread invoilving him and sounding like a fool.

Oh and by the way even if Itachi did have the ms he certainly did'nt tell anybody in the clan seeing as how his father and mother never mentioned anything about it.


----------



## Rawri (Jun 18, 2012)

Itachi might not have the most powerful genjutsu (Shisui does), but with Izanami and a large array of different genjutsu used throughout the manga should put him at #1. Tobi has some pretty neat feats as well, but imo Itachi takes this.

Shisui having one genjutsu every 10 year (albeit the strongest one) doesn't put him at #1.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...except the manga said Shisui was the best genjutsu user in the Uchiha Clan and Itachi didn't dispute it.



Don't you think you're being slightly unfair? Not only was Itachi a kid at that time, he also had no MS. Do you not think Itachi's genjutsu skill increased with MS and time? Jiraiya(or Hiruzen, w/e) was arguably the strongest Konoha ninja in part 1, it doesn't mean they cannot be surpassed. Which they already have by Naruto.

And did you expect Itachi to tell Bee to stop and say he's wrong? That's...odd.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 18, 2012)

> Greatest Genjutsu User?



Kabuto is he put a large number of people in a genjutsu in a instant. ^_^


----------



## Addy (Jun 18, 2012)

itachi > shisui cause itachi has shisui's genjutsu in addition to his own


----------



## HashiraMadara (Jun 18, 2012)

Itachi gets my vote simply because he's outstandingly naturally observant, uses his mind very well and works with everything he's got, i say this with the understanding that yes he is a "genjutsu type" but still, i've not seen anyone with as impressive display of skill in manipulating minds in the manga, i will say that Shisui must have been extremely impressive if he was considered the best, and Tobi has some nice feats as well in my opinion, I like Madara's easy usage of Genjutsu in battle also, he flows elegantly with it, but the superior user from what i've seen done so far would have to go to Itachi.


----------



## Nidaime Mizukage (Jun 18, 2012)

Nidaime Mizukage. Wide Range Mirage Genjutsu, ftw.

Followed by Kurenai.


----------



## Bloo (Jun 18, 2012)

IchLiebe said:


> IF Shisui controlled Ao and Ao escaped and lived then when People were being controlled he would say "It has to be Itachi OR SHISUI" but he didn't.


What's your point? We still don't know how the fight went so we can't pass judgement on that, we just know Ao knows Shisui's skillset and chakra well enough to recognize its color when Danzo was influencing Mifune, so cut this assuming crap out of your debate.


> That second paragraph just confused me. We know how shisui died. Itachi said how.


Itachi's a known liar, so we don't know. That paragraph is meant to show you how stupidly your filling in the blanks is and how it doesn't help your argument at all.


> Versatility doesn't always mean stronger. Oonoki with jinton beats most people who do have versatility.


When it comes to skill, showing off more than one genjutsu and having more feats than someone who indirectly has one feat _is_ versatility. This thread _isn't_ who has the strongest genjutsu.


> No. Koto isn't easy to break if it can be broke. His reg genjutsu can be "broke" if you have it pointed out. In 1v1 no ones there to tell you.


In 1v1 normal sharingan genjutsu is hard to break without sharingan according to Chiyo, so what's your point? Kakashi even stated that in groups Tsukuyomi is still impossible to break, while Kotoamatsukami, in the case of Mifune, certainly isn't.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 18, 2012)

Shisui was stated to be the best Genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan & I don't really see a reason to doubt that when his eyes hold the strongest Genjutsu we have seen so far, so I'm going to say he's probably the greatest or if not him than maybe Rikudo-Sannin if he had some Genjutsu proficiency or maybe Edo Madara.


----------



## Summers (Jun 18, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Shisui was stated to be the best Genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan & I don't really see a reason to doubt that when his eyes hold the strongest Genjutsu we have seen so far, so I'm going to say he's probably the greatest or if not him than maybe Rikudo-Sannin if he had some Genjutsu proficiency or maybe Edo Madara.



I can give you one. Shisui is not Itachi. Must be something wrong, do some digging.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 18, 2012)

feats suggest dat E-touch


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 18, 2012)

Any reasonable reader would know that Itachi is the greatest genjutsu user. It's not debatable and those who think Shisui is the greatest genjutsu user are not to be taken seriously as they fail to acknowledge that Danzo also own Shisui eyes, therefore by their logic Danzo is also the greatest genjutsu user in the manga as he has Senju cell implanted in him thus this allows him to bypass the 10 year charge time.


----------



## Bloo (Jun 18, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Shisui was stated to be the best Genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan & *I don't really see a reason to doubt that* when his eyes hold the strongest Genjutsu we have seen so far, so I'm going to say he's probably the greatest or if not him than maybe Rikudo-Sannin if he had some Genjutsu proficiency or maybe Edo Madara.


Itachi has feats, Shisui has one indirect feats. Itachi was the only one Ao and Shikaku, who are both better and more reliable sources than Killerbee, mentioned to be capable of controlling allied shinobi forces from a long distance, Shisui wasn't even brought up and Ao fought him in battle. Killerbee also is going off of reputation, Itachi built his up after Shisui's death and in that context the topic of discussion was Shisui and his Kotoamatsukami so hyping him up is normal, while Itachi has had genjutsu hype from multiple sources throughout the manga. Also there are problems translating the term, "most powerful" from Japanese to English and it comes out completely different. I read these translations are more accurate as "a most powerful genjutsu" just Izanagi and Itachi's tsukyomi were described.


Kakashi Hatake said:


> Any reasonable reader would know that Itachi is the greatest genjutsu user. It's not debatable and those who think Shisui is the greatest genjutsu user are not to be taken seriously as they fail to acknowledge that Danzo also own Shisui eyes, therefore by their logic Danzo is the greatest genjutsu user in the manga as he has Senju cell implanted on him allowing to bypass the 10 year charge time.


Didn't think of that, excellent point.


----------



## Ezekial (Jun 18, 2012)

LOL at people saying Itachi, Tobi kept Yagura under a genjutsu for years and has a perfect Izanagi, Tobi > Itachi


----------



## Bloo (Jun 18, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> LOL at people saying Itachi, Tobi kept Yagura under a genjutsu for years and has a perfect Izanagi, Tobi > Itachi


Perfect Izanagi has nothing to do with skill, it's a mere matter of having Hashirama DNA or not. And the Yagura feat can be done by other shinobi.


----------



## sinjin long (Jun 18, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Perfect Izanagi has nothing to do with skill, it's a mere matter of having Hashirama DNA or not. And the Yagura feat can be done by other shinobi.



really? cause it's been implied that only shisui's kotoamak.... is capable of that feat.


----------



## Krippy (Jun 18, 2012)

Itachi is the best by feats, but Shisui is the best by hype, and because of Koto.

1. Shisui
2. Itachi
3. Tobi
4. Sasuke
5. Danzo


----------



## Gabe (Jun 18, 2012)

shisuis genjutsu seems to be really hax so i think he is the best


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 18, 2012)

This solidified Itachi as the most best genjutsu user imo, alive or dead.



This was before Shikaku/Ao even knew Itachi was resurrected.


----------



## Bloo (Jun 18, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> really? cause it's been implied that only shisui's kotoamak.... is capable of that feat.


It was just manipulative genjutsu, Ao stated Itachi can do it as well.
_<See the above post>_​


----------



## sinjin long (Jun 18, 2012)

Bloo said:


> It was just manipulative genjutsu, Ao stated Itachi can do it as well.
> _<See the above post>_​



on a perfect jinchurrikki,and it was for years. as of yet the only genjutsu that has been described that even has a chance of working on a perfect jin for years would be a genjutsu where you don't even know your are in a genjutsu.

neither the host nor the bijuu.

to me that heavily implies to KOTO which is the only genjutsu we have any description of  as of now,that could possibly work.


----------



## Bloo (Jun 18, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> on a perfect jinchurrikki,and it was for years. as of yet the only genjutsu that has been described that even has a chance of working on a perfect jin for years would be a genjutsu where you don't even know your are in a genjutsu.


The Bijuu roamed free, not directly sealed inside Yagura. Meaning that Yagura didn't have a Bijuu that can disrupt the chakra flow.


> neither the host nor the bijuu.


The Bijuu was wild, it was stupid, as commented by Deidara. It probably didn't have the intellect to break a genjutsu anyway.


> to me that heavily implies to KOTO which is the only genjutsu we have any description of as of now,that could possibly work.


Tobi doesn't have Koto and stilll brainwashed Yagura so what's your point?


----------



## sinjin long (Jun 18, 2012)

Bloo said:


> The Bijuu roamed free, not directly sealed inside Yagura. Meaning that Yagura didn't have a Bijuu that can disrupt the chakra flow.
> 
> The Bijuu was wild, it was stupid, as commented by Deidara. It probably didn't have the intellect to break a genjutsu anyway.
> 
> Tobi doesn't have Koto and stilll brainwashed Yagura so what's your point?



where are you coming up with that??

the bijuu was sealed in yagura. it wasn't free until yagura died. hosts don't survive losing their bijuu, remember?

the yagura we saw that was the 4th mizukage being controlled by either madara or tobi was a perfect jin.


----------



## iJutsu (Jun 18, 2012)

Uchiha subjugation of bijuus doesn't stop with Kyuubi. All Tobi had to do was control both bijuu and jinchuuriki at the same time.


----------



## Bloo (Jun 18, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> where are you coming up with that??


Sorry, mixed up with something else.


> the bijuu was sealed in yagura. it wasn't free until yagura died. hosts don't survive losing their bijuu, remember?


See the above comment.


> the yagura we saw that was the 4th mizukage being controlled by either madara or tobi was a perfect jin.


Doesn't matter, Tobi or Madara don't have Koto so they probably used basic manipulative genjutsu, stuff Itachi can use as well.


----------



## Crona (Jun 19, 2012)

Wasn't there a remark in the kage summit that insinuated the genjutsu used on Yagura was similar to Koto and that's why so many people speculated that Shisui worked with Tobi/Madara? I doubt it was a regular genjutsu.

Edit:


----------



## sinjin long (Jun 19, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Sorry, mixed up with something else.
> 
> See the above comment.
> 
> Doesn't matter, Tobi or Madara don't have Koto so they probably used basic manipulative genjutsu, stuff Itachi can use as well.



it couldn't of been simple manipulative genjutsu, as that would only keep a perfect jin under genjutsu for a few mere moments if at all,no way it would last for years.

i'm not claiming it was 100% KOTO, but with the info that we have about koto,genjutsu,perfect jins,etc. it seems the most likely. but it was no way just a simple regular manipulative genjutsu.


----------



## Bloo (Jun 19, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> it couldn't of been simple manipulative genjutsu, as that would only keep a perfect jin under genjutsu for a few mere moments if at all,no way it would last for years.
> 
> i'm not claiming it was 100% KOTO, but with the info that we have about koto,genjutsu,perfect jins,etc. it seems the most likely. but it was no way just a simple regular manipulative genjutsu.


You have to remember, the Jinchuuriki has to recognize they're under influence of a genjutsu then alert the bijuu right? Itachi's genjutsu are subtle when he wants them to be, in most of his encounters with Naruto, he placed Naruto under genjutsu without him noticing.


----------



## Oga Tatsumi (Jun 19, 2012)

I wonder why some people of NF like to argue with Manga canon?
If the Manga stated that Shisui is the best then he's the best.
Shisui soloes.


----------



## Bloo (Jun 19, 2012)

Mickie said:


> I wonder why some people of NF like to argue with Manga canon?
> If the Manga stated that Shisui is the best then he's the best.
> Shisui soloes.


When the manga states Itachi is the only capable genjutsu user to accomplish a certain feat, the manga cannon is implying Itachi is on another level, a level Shisui isn't on. 

Manga canon contradicts. And the person to state Shisui as the greatest is Killerbee, a very unintelligent source.


----------



## Grendel (Jun 19, 2012)

Bloo said:


> When the manga states Itachi is the only capable genjutsu user to accomplish a certain feat, the manga cannon is implying Itachi is on another level, a level Shisui isn't on.
> 
> Manga canon contradicts. And the person to state Shisui as the greatest is Killerbee, a very unintelligent source.



Except that statement about itachi makes no sense in context to what we've seen...if he could tak control of someone from a distance then it would be without eye contact...yet he had to sacrifice an eye with izanami to put kabuto in genjutsu with no eye contact...


----------



## Bloo (Jun 19, 2012)

Grendel said:


> Except that statement about itachi makes no sense in context to what we've seen...if he could tak control of someone from a distance then it would be without eye contact...yet he had to sacrifice an eye with izanami to put kabuto in genjutsu with no eye contact...


Most people aren't sages, sages in general are harder to capture in genjutsu period.


----------



## Grendel (Jun 19, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Most people aren't sages, sages in general are harder to capture in genjutsu period.



I am just sayimg the long distance thing doesn't fit with what we were shown...unless he can simply control someone that he already cast a genjutsu on from a great distance...


----------



## Bloo (Jun 19, 2012)

Grendel said:


> I am just sayimg the long distance thing doesn't fit with what we were shown...unless he can simply control someone that he already cast a genjutsu on from a great distance...


We never saw anything from Itachi sayng he can't though so it's a question mark.


----------



## sinjin long (Jun 19, 2012)

Bloo said:


> You have to remember, the Jinchuuriki has to recognize they're under influence of a genjutsu then alert the bijuu right? Itachi's genjutsu are subtle when he wants them to be, in most of his encounters with Naruto, he placed Naruto under genjutsu without him noticing.



in a regular jinchuuriki perhaps,but from what we have been told this does not apply to perfect jins.

naruto and kurama were not cooperating partners when itachi did that.

in perfect jins,they are cooperating partners,basically in perfect jins you have perpetual partner method of breaking genjutsu.

it doesn't matter how subtle the illusion the victim is experiencing,the bijuu will recognize the altered chakra and disrupt it. thus canceling the genjutsu.

its not about the illusion, its how genjutsu alters the chakra.


----------



## Oga Tatsumi (Jun 19, 2012)

Bloo said:


> When the manga states Itachi is the only capable genjutsu user to accomplish a certain feat, the manga cannon is implying Itachi is on another level, a level Shisui isn't on.
> 
> Manga canon contradicts. And the person to state Shisui as the greatest is Killerbee, a very unintelligent source.



What contradiction? lol
When Itachi was praised as the greatest or best genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan?
This is your excuse lol?
"I don't think Shisui is the best genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan because Bee is a very unintelligent source" 

Shisui soloes.


----------



## Bloo (Jun 19, 2012)

Mickie said:


> What contradiction? lol
> When Itachi was praised as the greatest or best genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan?
> This is your excuse lol?
> "I don't think Shisui is the best genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan because Bee is a very unintelligent source"
> ...


No this is the reason, Ao fought Shisui and still stated Itachi as the *only *potential candidate to control the allied shinobi force from a long distance. Something that, if Shisui if he was a better genjutsu user than Itachi, he should be able to as well.

Itachi>Shisui until proven otherwise.

It's a valid excuse because there's a contradiction and between the two sources, Ao is definitely the more valid one.


----------



## Oga Tatsumi (Jun 19, 2012)

Bloo said:


> No this is the reason, Ao fought Shisui and still stated Itachi as the *only *potential candidate to control the allied shinobi force from a long distance. Something that, if Shisui if he was a better genjutsu user than Itachi, he should be able to as well.
> 
> Itachi>Shisui until proven otherwise.
> 
> It's a valid excuse because there's a contradiction and between the two sources, Ao is definitely the more valid one.



Trololololol.
Where is the contradiction? lol. I will ask for the last time, When Itachi has been praised as the greatest or best genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan? lol
That comment of Ao don't have anything to do with Bee statement about Shisui being the best.
Just accept that Shisui is the best(Manga canon)


Shisui soloes.

PD: I'm done here


----------



## Grendel (Jun 19, 2012)

Bloo said:


> We never saw anything from Itachi sayng he can't though so it's a question mark.



But we do know that itachi is not a sensor so how would he even find these people at great distances to put in genjutsu?  Its just one of those character statements that dont fit within the feats we are shown...


----------



## crisler (Jun 19, 2012)

come to think of it, sound genjutsu seem more hax than eyes...

you can here it from further distance, and you can't perfectly close your ears as well as you can close your eyes...

and you have to use both your hands, making you impossible to cast seals or attack the enemy, unlike closing your eyes you can do other things as well.


----------



## Namikaze Minato Flash (Jun 19, 2012)

This thread should be closed already because this is just another case of "feats versus hype" that is getting nowhere. If you prefer feats trumping all, then Itachi is undoubtedly the master of Genjutsu of the Uchiha Clan. However, if hype is to be included in the equation, then Shisui is top dog. And since neither are infallible, it all comes down to personal preference and if the author really cares to delve too deeply into that particular subject within the story...


----------



## Danzio (Jun 19, 2012)

Bloo said:


> You do realize that Bee is an unreliable source right? When Shikaku and Ao, both much more intelligent and reliable sources of the topic, had to identify a possible deceased shinobi to be able to control allied shinobi forces from a long distance, the only one they identified and established as the *only *one capable to do so was Itachi. Shisui, someone who actually fought Ao, wasn't even mentioned Ao still brought up Itachi and not Shisui even though he actually fought him in battle. So when it comes to knowing Shisui's skillset, Ao has the edge over Killerbee, and obviously Ao wasn't as impressed with him as he was with Itachi.



Why is Bee an unreliable source? He is probably the most objective person on this subject since he is not from the Uchiha clan and it?s not like he?s a known liar like Tobi. The Uchiha clan considered Shisui the best genjutsu user overall, then you add the fact he also possessed the strongest, most powerful genjutsu and  I have a hard time seeing how you can claim that he isn?t the greatest Genjutsu user .


I also chuckled when you said that Ao is somehow more reliable when I?m pretty sure he was the one who said Sasuke killed Zabuza.


----------



## Appleofeden (Jun 19, 2012)

From what we've seen Itachi by far, he's demonstrated ALL (including Koto) the Uchiha genjutsu in the series but Izanagi and we all know he could use that too.


----------



## Missing_Nin (Jun 19, 2012)

itachi=god of naruto.


----------



## Yuna (Jun 19, 2012)

Grendel said:


> I am just sayimg the long distance thing doesn't fit with what we were shown...unless he can simply control someone that he already cast a genjutsu on from a great distance...


Did everyone just forget what Itachi did when he first appeared? He put a Saimingan (literally "Eye of Hypnotism") Genjutsu on a woman to make her flirt with Jiraiya in order to stall him. While he didn't directly control her, he imbedded certain commands into her brain, similar to Koto Amatsukami, and she was forced to obey these commands.

The Alliance then thought that Itachi was behind the strange occurrende of what appeared to be alliance members turning on their comrades, which further implies that it is not at all outside of Itachi's abilities to control one like a puppet from a long range.


----------



## J★J♥ (Jun 19, 2012)

Second Mizukage he trolls Kage levels so hard that they don't even know what is coming at them ninjutsu or genjutsu


----------



## Turrin (Jun 19, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Itachi has feats, Shisui has one indirect feats.


We still know the strength of Kotoamatsukami & we know how much this strength was valued by the villains. Danzo thought Kotoamatsukami was worth more than 10minutes of Izanagi as his whole plan was to use Izanagi to stall for Koto to recharge & Tobi as well as Kabuto both coveted the power of Shisui dojutsu. It's also been extensively hyped; Itachi thought a crow armed with Shisui's Dojutsu could beat EMS Sasuke, Danzo thought Shisui's Dojutsu could beat Uchiha Madara or MS Sasuke, & Tobi also seemed to hint at the fact that Danzo would have defeated Sasuke if he used Shisui's Dojutsu. Combined this with the fact that Shisui was stated to be, _"The strongest genjutsu user among the Uchiha" _, & I'm willing to go off of statements & indirect feats until proven otherwise.



> Itachi was the only one Ao and Shikaku, who are both better and more reliable sources than Killerbee, mentioned to be capable of controlling allied shinobi forces from a long distance, Shisui wasn't even brought up and Ao fought him in battle.


The thing is Shisui can control someone at the same range as Itachi with Kotoamatsukami & even control that person after his death, since Itachi remained under Kotoamatsukami's control even after he both killed the crow/eye & was miles away from the crow/eye, which cast the Jutsu on him.

AO and Shikaku probably meant that only Itachi can control a good number of people at that range, while Shisui of course could only control 2 people with Kotoamatsukami. 

However I fail to see how Itachi having the ability to control more fodder than Shisui at long ranges makes him better than Shisui at Genjutsu. Shisui's Kotoamatsukami can control Kage Class Ninja at any range, w/o them even being aware of it, & even after he's died &/or the eye is destroyed, that is a far better power in terms of mind control than Itachi being able to control a few more fodder. I mean Part I Kabuto put an entire stadium of fodder to sleep, which is far more people than Itachi has ever shown to effect with Genjutsu, but it still Itachi is much better than him in Genjutsu, because it's fodder.



> Killerbee also is going off of reputation, Itachi built his up after Shisui's death and in that context the topic of discussion was Shisui and his Kotoamatsukami so hyping him up is normal, while Itachi has had genjutsu hype from multiple sources throughout the manga.


Itachi was never called the best Genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan and Kishi had plenty of chances to have a character hype him as such, but he avoided doing so and hyped Shisui as such instead. And like I said about Shisui's Genjutsu Kotoamatsukami has hype from a great number of sources as well, including Itachi himself.



> Also there are problems translating the term, "most powerful" from Japanese to English and it comes out completely different. I read these translations are more accurate as "a most powerful genjutsu" just Izanagi and Itachi's tsukyomi were described.


No this is not true and I can easily prove this wrong since in the past I asked every single major translator on the forum this question:


*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Gottheim said:
			
		

> mTricky question, that. New powers and techniques are constantly introduced as "teh strongest jutsu evah!!™", so it can get confusing really fast if you take it all at face value. Same goes for characters.
> It is perfectly acceptable to translate "saikyou as "*a* most powerful", as opposed to "*the* most powerful" in some cases. It is, as many things in Japanese, context-dependent.
> 
> Now about Shisui, I believe Bee meant "the", and not "a". Because while Itachi was positively scary in his own right:
> ...






			
				Shisui said:
			
		

> Hey, Turrin. So I guess the argument is whether the sentence should read as:
> 
> [うちは最強の] [幻術使い]
> [Uchiha's strongest] [genjutsu user]
> ...





			
				Yagami1211 said:
			
		

> From my point of view he's uchiha's strongest "genjutsu user".
> and not the user of the strongest genjutsu.
> 
> Because :
> ...





			
				takL said:
			
		

> hey sorry for replying this late im just back from my obon holiday.
> 
> the convo went like this
> 
> ...






I also have a response from ShounenSuki saying the same thing, but this post got two long


----------



## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 19, 2012)

lathia said:


> For the same reason that people don't believe Raikage A improved in speed ever since he met Minato. Both Shisui and Minato respectively carry the "ultimate" jutsu.
> 
> 
> Will Naruto/A be as fast as Hiraishin? Almost, but no.



Flawed logic is flawed. Hiraishin =/= speed, so there's no way they can be as fast as that. Naruto is *faster* (Hiraishin isn't speed) than Minato. A is as fast as Minato. Hiraishin is a teleprotation jutsu.



> Will any of Itachi's genjutsu *compare* to Kotoamatsukami? Almost, but no.


----------



## lathia (Jun 19, 2012)

L. Messi [✔];43453689 said:
			
		

> Flawed logic is flawed. Hiraishin =/= speed, so there's no way they can be as fast as that. Naruto is *faster* (Hiraishin isn't speed) than Minato. A is as fast as Minato. Hiraishin is a teleprotation jutsu.



Hiraishin is the pinnacle of "speed" as interpreted by the manga. Much like Koto being the pinnacle of Genjutsu. Don't try and get technical in_ attempt_ to counter pick an argument. 



>



Ah, I see the problem here. You think Itachi is weaker than Shisui just because he didn't poses the most powerful genjutsu? Fear not, even though none of Itachi's genjutsu compare to Koto, he can still win. After all, it's Itachi.


----------



## Almondsand (Jun 19, 2012)

It's between Uchiha Shisui and Uchiha Itachi, these are the only guys who I see as being the greatest genjutsu users, at least in recent memory.  We seen a lot more of what Itachi can do but we heard much more praise go to Shisui in regards to his ability of genjutsu. There is many factors to look at when discussing these two as they both existed at one point in time together. Shisui was a mentor to Itachi when he was a younger kid growing up, Itachi referring to him as someone similar to an older brother of his, nothing mentioning of him training him but I can imagine he had, at least gave him the knowledge of how to attain the Mangekyou Sharingan. In some aspects, I think Shisui had already casted Kotoamatsukami on Itachi, so that he can destroy the clan or at least have the resolve to do so as well as protect the village of Konoha. This however doesn't make me believe that Shisui is a greater genjutsu user than Itachi, as Itachi was only 11 years old at the time. Also Itachi was viewed as the true heir to the clan at the time, Shisui was consider the strongest or one of the strongest in the clan. Why are the whole clan putting their faith in to a 11 yr old boy's strength if he wasn't the best of the Uchiha? Even if Itachi was not better than Shisui at genjutsu at the time, he struck fear in more hearts than Shisui did, at least of what was shown. Even when the death of Shisui was brought up, everyone suspected that Itachi did so, as they believe only he would be capable of doing so. So they shows even with Shisui great genjutsu, Itachi was suspected of defeating Shisui in every way possible. Shisui was also an older clansmen, so Itachi being the age of 21 I'm sure he improved alot.


----------



## sinjin long (Jun 19, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> It's between Uchiha Shisui and Uchiha Itachi, these are the only guys who I see as being the greatest genjutsu users, at least in recent memory.  We seen a lot more of what Itachi can do but we heard much more praise go to Shisui in regards to his ability of genjutsu. There is many factors to look at when discussing these two as they both existed at one point in time together. Shisui was a mentor to Itachi when he was a younger kid growing up, Itachi referring to him as someone similar to an older brother of his, nothing mentioning of him training him but I can imagine he had, at least gave him the knowledge of how to attain the Mangekyou Sharingan. In some aspects, I think Shisui had already casted Kotoamatsukami on Itachi, so that he can destroy the clan or at least have the resolve to do so as well as protect the village of Konoha. This however doesn't make me believe that Shisui is a greater genjutsu user than Itachi, as Itachi was only 11 years old at the time. Also Itachi was viewed as the true heir to the clan at the time, Shisui was consider the strongest or one of the strongest in the clan. Why are the whole clan putting their faith in to a 11 yr old boy's strength if he wasn't the best of the Uchiha? Even if Itachi was not better than Shisui at genjutsu at the time, he struck fear in more hearts than Shisui did, at least of what was shown. Even when the death of Shisui was brought up, everyone suspected that Itachi did so, as they believe only he would be capable of doing so. So they shows even with Shisui great genjutsu, Itachi was suspected of defeating Shisui in every way possible. Shisui was also an older clansmen, so Itachi being the age of 21 I'm sure he improved alot.



actually they suspected itachi in shisui's death because only him and itachi were missing from the clan meeting.


----------



## ? (Jun 19, 2012)




----------



## Tengu (Jun 19, 2012)

Itachi easily.


----------



## hellohi (Jun 19, 2012)

Itachi is more skilled at Genjutsu IMO. Meaning.. if it was Itachi vs Shisui in regular genjutsu, Itachi would win probably(he is a genius). This is just based on what we have seen from him. It is entirely possible that Shisui is in fact superior considering his trump card is the strongest genjutsu.. but we know nothing about him.

Shisui just has the hax and superior technique. Similar to how Amaterasu/Enton is superior to fire techniques but it doesn't necessarily make the Sharingan user the most skilled Katon user.

I don't think Kotoblahblahad can be overcome at all, Itachi was confident it would completely change Sasuke.. Danzou was just a mess and didn't even use Koto to it's full potential. Tobi said Danzou couldn't fully control the power of Hashirama so the same can be probably be said about Shisui's eye and why he used it so terribly.


----------



## Tengu (Jun 19, 2012)

^^Mifune wasn't affected by it the moment he realized that Danzou used it on him, and Itachi has his free will, Sasuke has stated several times in front of him that he will destroy Konoha, yet Itachi who supposedly is following the command _Protect Konoha_ doesn't do anything about it.

So Koto isn't an insta win button as so many people say, it is good for influencing people, but only if they are not aware that a genjutsu is used on them.

In my opinion Tsukuyomi is better for fights.


----------



## hellohi (Jun 19, 2012)

Koto is instant win in actuality, Kishi simply can't allow it to be that Godly and powerful in the present time, like any other technique(with the exception of Madara since he is dead and will eventually die). 

As I said, the eye doesn't belong to Danzou (or the crow lol), I'm sure Shisui, the original owner can use it on a scale much larger than they can.

The fact that Koto can only be used once every 10 years supports it's Godly feats..

And Itachi isn't just letting Sasuke go and destroy Konoha, he is CONFIDENT that Naruto will stop Sasuke.. meaning his mind, there is a plan that will work so the "protect Konoha order" isn't scratched off.. and for all we know, he could be trying to do something to Sasuke next chapter as he walks toward him.


----------



## Tengu (Jun 19, 2012)

Well i don't think Koto is insta win, yeah it could cause the enemy some confusion, but the genjutsu itself doesn't force someone to obey the command it just fools the victim into thinking that the command is what he actually wants to do.
I also don't think that if Shisui uses Koto it would be more powerful since that isn't supported by anything.

So Itachi is bypassing the command leaving Sasuke to Naruto, that's just mean the command doesn't force someone to do something, but lets the victim decide.


----------



## hellohi (Jun 19, 2012)

That's okay, you are allowed your opinion as I am allowed mine  

I think it's insta-win and I think it's even more powerful if Shisui uses it since the eye belongs to him and Danzou let alone the crow didn't have an Uchiha body(like Kakashi). 

Danzou didn't use Koto on a large scale, he just swayed a simple opinion, he didn't completely control Mifune and if he did, it would have been pointless as we saw(because his usage of the technique was noticed) and it wouldn't have helped the Akatsuki problem at all. Common sense.

Itachi, the master of genjutsu has said that Koto is the strongest and along with the 10 year recharge time, it is pretty clear that it is. Itachi, the master of genjutsu was confident that it would completely change Sasuke.... Itachi is confident that Naruto can stop Sasuke, he has a plan, the Koto command is still intact.

We are all allowed to think what we want though, only Kishi has the answers and a technique like Koto will definitely cause some confusion!


----------



## Ausorrin (Jun 19, 2012)

Shisui has the strongest genjutsu technique but Itachi is the better genjutsu user


----------



## hardhitter (Jun 19, 2012)

I've observed lately that any thread with "Itachi" in it, is generally a controversial topic. Now adding the word "greatest" next that, and you have your classic bait thread...

Going by actual hype/logic which some seem to ignore, it should be

Shisui (stated to have been the greatest genjutsu user produced from Uchiha)
Itachi (implied he has the power to control Kyuubi via MS, plus Ao's comments)
Madara/Tobi (tamed Kyuubi, controlled perfect Jinchuuriki)
Sasuke (break Tsukuyomi, whether intended by Itachi or not EMS Sasuke should be fully capable of breaking a real Tsukuyomi now)

Going by feats:

Madara/Tobi
Itachi
Sasuke
Shisui

It's sad but true. People should learn when to see logic over feats and vice versa. There's really no definite answer, and there isn't even definitive hype.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 19, 2012)

1. Shisui
2. Tobi 
3. Itachi


----------



## Grendel (Jun 19, 2012)

Yuna said:


> Did everyone just forget what Itachi did when he first appeared? He put a Saimingan (literally "Eye of Hypnotism") Genjutsu on a woman to make her flirt with Jiraiya in order to stall him. While he didn't directly control her, he imbedded certain commands into her brain, similar to Koto Amatsukami, and she was forced to obey these commands.
> 
> The Alliance then thought that Itachi was behind the strange occurrende of what appeared to be alliance members turning on their comrades, which further implies that it is not at all outside of Itachi's abilities to control one like a puppet from a long range.



This is what I was saying...the person I quoted was refering to itachi taking control of someone from a long distance...was simply sayng he lacked feats to find someone and take control from a long distance...

However I know he can control people from a distance and was saying that was the only way it made sense...is if the person was already under his control....


----------



## Almondsand (Jun 19, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> actually they suspected itachi in shisui's death because only him and itachi were missing from the clan meeting.



Yeah but think about it, Itachi was said to be on Anbu mission at the time so he had an excuse to be missing. The fact is Itachi was that strong, that even Shisui Uchiha of the Body Flicker (who possessed the Mangekyou Sharingan) was expected to have fallen by his hand. Also whoever says that Sasuke broke out of Itachi's Tsukyomi, is smoking on the delirium pipe.


----------



## Kazuya Mishima (Jun 19, 2012)

Didn't Itachi actually admit that Shisui was superior to him? I may be wrong.


----------



## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 19, 2012)

Nope, he didn't.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 20, 2012)

Uchiha Itachi without a doubt.

Dat Izanami 




Ausorrin said:


> Shisui has the strongest genjutsu technique but Itachi is the better genjutsu user



Pretty much this.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jun 20, 2012)

I'd say Itachi is the best genjutsu user from what we have seen thus far. Genjutsu just comes naturally to him.


----------



## vinnycool sannin (Jun 20, 2012)

Best genjutsu user is ma and pa frog. 

Even pain didn't want to get caught in it twice. All genjutsus so far has been broke out of except sage frog song. 

So frong song good game


----------

