# Which Currently-Active Shonen Manga Series Contains the Best Portrayal of Women?



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 17, 2012)

_Shonen_ manga series are, by definition, intended to be read by young male readers, typically those between the ages of 12 and 18, and, as such, they contain elements that are thought to appeal to such readers, such as grand adventures in vast and fantastic worlds, awesome battles and fight scenes, and an emphasis on friendship and camaraderie. However, I have seen numerous _shonen_ series being accused of having negative portrayals of female characters, such as by making them clearly inferior to male characters, not being as central to their stories, or by being to emotional in comparison to the male characters. Some readers defend this trend by saying that, as _shonen_ series are meant for male readers, it is to be expected, but I believe that that is not an acceptable excuse.

Therefore, I wish to ask the other users of this forum which currently-active _shonen_ manga series they believe have the best portrayals of female characters. To use non-active series as examples, _Dragon Ball, Rurouni Kenshin,_ and _Yu Yu Hakusho,_ in my mind, did not have positive portrayals of women, while _Fullmetal Alchemist_ did. In the former series, the female characters were fewer in number than male characters, clearly inferior to male characters in terms of combat ability, and also not as central to the plots of their series, while in the latter series, women could fight equally with men, were almost as numerous as male characters, and were never shown to be emotionally-vulnerable except when it was justified, most notably when Winry confronted the person who killed her parents.

Now, on the subject of currently-active series, I have heard that _Claymore_ has exceptionally positive portrayals of women: they are strong in body and mind and can fight without becoming emotionally unbalanced. Unfortunately, as I have not read _Claymore,_ I cannot be certain about that; so, among the series that I have read, I shall say that _Bleach_ has the best portrayal of women that I have seen in a _shonen_ series: in _Bleach,_ the women are automatically regarded as equals to men and therefore do not need to prove their worth, do not use their attractiveness to influence men (apart from Rangiku Matsumoto, in whose case being seductive is part of her character), and, whenever they were emotional, had understandable reasons for being so, such as when Orihime witnessed Ulquiorra massacring Ichigo, Soi Fong was upset over Yoruichi's sudden disappearance, and when Aizen was manipulating Hinamori.

What does everyone else have to say? In your opinions, which currently-active _shonen_ manga series have the best and most positive portrayals of female characters? I eagerly await your responses.


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## Lightysnake (Feb 17, 2012)

Definitely Claymore, quite frankly. It's an absolute rarity in Shonen: A cast that is largely composed of competent, mature women with different personalities (lots of lesbian subtext in areas, too).

I'd disagree Bleach does a good job. Most often it's the women who are increasingly marginalized or made ineffective in Bleach. Look at Harribel for one. Only Espada to get an ignominious end like that? Most of the time the women fail to achieve a damn thing in Bleach.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Feb 17, 2012)

FMA alchemist did  whine whine whinry


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## Kirito (Feb 17, 2012)

Tbh, Bleach is not. Placing them as equals because of the level of hype put on them plus Kubo's unwillingness to use such characters is irrational. I see the best portrayal of women as one who has lots of sides to her as a character, one you can believe can be human.

Besides, I've answered this already in the OP thread.

Oh, Claymore wins by default since it's a manga where the recognizable cast is 90% women, of course it portrays them the best.


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## MrCinos (Feb 17, 2012)

Tower of God - excellent in this regard, the ratio between males and feles is about equal and so far females seem to be even stronger, not counting top tiers which haven't been shown yet.

Shingeki no Kyojin - Mikasa, the sister of male main character outshines him and pretty much everyone else who is about her age. There are other strong female characters too.

Zettai Karen Children - This one is obvious because among 4 main characters, three of them are females. There are plenty of other strong female characters too and the ratio between males and females is almost equal.

History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi - plenty of strong females, the strongest one revealed is probably top-tier (below Hayate and his son but on par with other strongest masters).

Needless - seinen on paper but feels like shounen, and also has a lot of strong females, some with hax power, some with extreme speed or physical strength.


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## auem (Feb 17, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> Definitely Claymore, quite frankly. It's an absolute rarity in Shonen: A cast that is largely composed of competent, mature women with different personalities (lots of lesbian subtext in areas, too).
> 
> I'd disagree Bleach does a good job. Most often it's the women who are increasingly marginalized or made ineffective in Bleach. Look at Harribel for one. Only Espada to get an ignominious end like that? Most of the time the women fail to achieve a damn thing in Bleach.



at one point Claymore was...but now the hierarchy is cleared,all the top brasses seem to male,women are for fighting....women are physically strongest in this manga though..i don't know whether in any seinen or shounen such things ever happened...


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## Inuhanyou (Feb 17, 2012)

Shingeki No Kyojin +__+


Of course you could say that Mikasa, as overwhelmingly badass as she is, has no problem with being ruled by her emotions for her love interestbrother, it doesn't seem to be a problem, as without these bonds, a lot of people would have never survived in the world


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## Lightysnake (Feb 17, 2012)

auem said:


> at one point Claymore was...but now the hierarchy is cleared,all the top brasses seem to male,women are for fighting....women are physically strongest in this manga though..i don't know whether in any seinen or shounen such things ever happened...



The guys are the bad guys who are exploiting the women and are being opposed by them, however.


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## Dream Brother (Feb 17, 2012)

This is a difficult topic -- it's hard to think of many examples that I've come across, either past or present. Out of the works mentioned so far, I think _Shingeki no Kyojin_ might be the closest, due to Mikasa and Annie, but the manga is still quite young, and we haven't seen them being explored in depth yet. 

I remember _Claymore_ having a good beginning, particularly that flashback arc with Teresa and Clare, but I just lost interest after a while.


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## luffy no haki (Feb 17, 2012)

Shingeki no Kyojin
Claymore
Fairy Tail ( the manga is garbage however the women at least get some actual importance)


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## Cibo (Feb 17, 2012)

Read Knight Run. The both girls in this manhwa are unmatched powerwise so far.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 17, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> I'd disagree Bleach does a good job. Most often it's the women who are increasingly marginalized or made ineffective in Bleach. Look at Harribel for one. Only Espada to get an ignominious end like that? Most of the time the women fail to achieve a damn thing in Bleach.



What about Orihime, Rukia, and Yoruichi? Orihime and Rukia are the two most significant female characters in the series, so they are never "marginalized," in my mind, and Yoruichi is also a very significant character, as she is a close ally of Urahara and Isshin, two characters with mysterious backgrounds. At one point Yoruichi was a mentor to Ichigo, and then she fought Aizen with Urahara and Isshin, after nearly everyone else had done so and been defeated, so I fail to see how she was ever "marginalized."



Kirito said:


> Tbh, Bleach is not. Placing them as equals because of the level of hype put on them plus Kubo's unwillingness to use such characters is irrational. I see the best portrayal of women as one who has lots of sides to her as a character, one you can believe can be human.



Rukia, Orihime, and Matsumoto have "many sides to their characters," to use your words. Orihime may at first seem to be absent-minded with a vivid imagination, but she actually has extremely high grades in school and also is secretly tormented by the fact that her parents were abusive, so her older brother took her away from them, and then he died, leaving her alone. Rukia at first seemed to be cold and callous, but she also has a lighter and more playful side, must constantly strive to meet her brother's extremely high expectations by maintaining the dignity that is expected of a member of the Kuchiki family, and also lives with the guilt of having killed her own best friend and mentor (that friend was possessed by a hollow, but she still considers herself to be his murderer). Matsumoto initially seems to be very lazy, found of alcohol, and seductive in her personality, but she has a strong sense of duty, is a competent fighter, and has her own inner demons, as seen through her relationship with Gin.

Are those sufficient counter-arguments, I hope?


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## Forces (Feb 17, 2012)

Berserk


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## The Fist of Goa (Feb 17, 2012)

I think One Piece does pretty well in this area. Granted most of the women are quite sexualized, and there was that one female character whose super power was basically doing laundry... not to mention the whole love sickness thing. 

However, there are many strong and capable female characters that have important roles in the story. The straw hats couldn't survive without Nami and Robin in the portal through which the readers experience one of the most important plot points.

There are ups and downs but i think overall Oda does a good job at portraying women as capable, intelligent, strong-willed, important and often powerful characters.



SuperVegetto said:


> Berserk



Shonen.


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## Lightysnake (Feb 17, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> What about Orihime, Rukia, and Yoruichi? Orihime and Rukia are the two most significant female characters in the series, so they are never "marginalized," in my mind, and Yoruichi is also a very significant character, as she is a close ally of Urahara and Isshin, two characters with mysterious backgrounds. At one point Yoruichi was a mentor to Ichigo, and then she fought Aizen with Urahara and Isshin, after nearly everyone else had done so and been defeated, so I fail to see how she was ever "marginalized."



I'll give you Yoruichi, but Rukia and Orihime are very much marginalized or made ineffective. Both have taken turns as the damsel in distress who needed to be rescued and despite Orihime being, potentially, one of the series' most broken characters, she never lives up to her potential at all and spends most of the Arrancar arc being mostly useless, crying and being an enormous red herring in importance. Rukia is also often marginalized: She's noticeably less effective than most of the others, failed to defeat her Fullbringer enemy and is pretty weak in comparison to most of the others around.

Generally, the women in Bleach are the less effective fighters (And of the three fighters with Aizen...both Isshin and Urahara would've taken him out without the Hougyoku evolution, and Urahara laid the foundation for Aizen's sealing)...most of the time, the women end up over their heads and need the guys' help (Soifon vs. Barragan) and infuriatingly, Nel who goit screwed hugely.


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## stream (Feb 17, 2012)

In my opinion, judging which portrayal of women is best based on their fighting ability is kind of weird, but Beelzebub rates quite well on that front.


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## Lightysnake (Feb 17, 2012)

Yeah, I was also going to mention...it is entirely posible to have series with women who aren't 'powerful' as fighters, but still have them as strong, independent and well rounded characters


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## Kira U. Masaki (Feb 17, 2012)

Yea like Shoujo portrays guys in a flattering light. Half the time the male interest is some arrogant stuck up prick, who some how changes his way due to the girls charm, or he is some unrealistic perfect guy who is just perfect.


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## Lightysnake (Feb 17, 2012)

Kira U. Masaki said:


> Yea like Shoujo portrays guys in a flattering light. Half the time the male interest is some arrogant stuck up prick, who some how changes his way due to the girls charm, or he is some unrealistic perfect guy who is just perfect.



1. Generalization much?

2. And your point is? How does this defeat the point that there's serious issue with portrayal of women in Shone?


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## Killerqueen (Feb 17, 2012)

Hunter x hunter 
Claymore 
Jojo bizarre adventure


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 17, 2012)

*I think most do a fair job. One Piece does a good job, the only problem is that Oda draws a lot of the more attractive women to similar. HSDK does a good job, but the fan service is waaaay to forced. HunterxHunter doesn't do a bad job, but it could be better. Toriko is good with the few women it has. 

Claymore is too lopsided. Women being the main characters doesn't mean it's portraying women fairly. *


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## Lightysnake (Feb 17, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *I think most do a fair job. One Piece does a good job, the only problem is that Oda draws a lot of the more attractive women to similar. HSDK does a good job, but the fan service is waaaay to forced. HunterxHunter doesn't do a bad job, but it could be better. Toriko is good with the few women it has.
> 
> Claymore is too lopsided. Women being the main characters doesn't mean it's portraying women fairly. *



I wouldn't consider Toriko that good. Most women are wholly dependent on the guys there (Rin certainly is), and HxH isn't too much better.

Claymore is full of capable women who form good relationships/bonds with one another. They're more fleshed out than women get in most shonen as well, with realistic flaws and qualities.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 17, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> I wouldn't consider Toriko that good. Most women are wholly dependent on the guys there (Rin certainly is), and HxH isn't too much better.
> 
> Claymore is full of capable women who form good relationships/bonds with one another. They're more fleshed out than women get in most shonen as well, with realistic flaws and qualities.



*Rin has never been portrayed as being wholly dependent on anyone. She's a capable person. There aren't many women in the series but the women that are there are portrayed pretty well. 

The women in Claymore are obviously going to be more fleshed out than women in most shounen, since 90% of the characters that actually matter are women. Portraying either gender well is all about balance, Claymore may flesh out it's women but that's not necessarily the same thing as portraying it's women well. *


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## Stilzkin (Feb 17, 2012)

Posted this in the OP thread about this but in regards to Bleach vs OP:

Is there a single female character in bleach that is not portrayed as attractive? All of the are sexualized to some degree as far as I can tell. Rukia is the one that is least sexualized and she has a romantic connection with two characters.


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## Fran (Feb 17, 2012)

Toriko's women  Ahhhh, it HAS to have something to do with the 16 year old gourmet prostitute incident.


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## Basilikos (Feb 17, 2012)

Claymore - The overwhelming majority of the cast is female. They're pretty badass too.

Negima - A large portion of the cast is female. Fanservice of the early chapters aside, each of the girls from Negi's class are unique with their own character strengths and weaknesses. Indeed, many of them get lots of panel time, plot relevance, key importance in various fights, and substantial character development throughout the manga.


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## Mist Puppet (Feb 17, 2012)

Stilzkin said:


> Posted this in the OP thread about this but in regards to Bleach vs OP:
> 
> Is there a single female character in bleach that is not portrayed as attractive? All of the are sexualized to some degree as far as I can tell. Rukia is the one that is least sexualized and she has a romantic connection with two characters.



Hinamori. Well, except for the guys that get off to women getting stabbed in the chest.


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## Random Stranger (Feb 17, 2012)

stream said:


> In my opinion, judging which portrayal of women is best based on their fighting ability is kind of weird.


This.

Female athletes and proffesional fighters can't compete with their male counterparts in real life.


So going by your criteria, real life doesn't contain a good portrayal of women.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 17, 2012)

Fran said:


> Toriko's women  Ahhhh, it HAS to have something to do with the 16 year old *gourmet prostitute* incident.



 **


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## Superstars (Feb 17, 2012)

Bleach because they are top flight and they are in for their strength in the series.


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## Inuhanyou (Feb 17, 2012)

Rukia is my favorite character in Bleach, but even i can admit the series itself is not the best example of women empowerment. There's nothing particularly wrong with Kubo's women, but nothing overly stand out 

Inoue can be competent but also dead weight at times, Rukia is the deuteragonist of the series and is treated like that at specific times based on her relationship with the main character and her effect on him and other important characters, but is also not very strong battlewise.  

A lot of the characters are sexified, but that's more or less Kubo's style going back to Zombie Powder so i can't really fault him for that 

Bleach would not be my first choice all in all, even though its on the list.


I think its a toss up between Shingeki(Mikasa rocks), Claymore(maybe a bit too much, none of the guys save Raki(who barely shows up) are worth anything)


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## Kira U. Masaki (Feb 17, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> 1. Generalization much?
> 
> 2. And your point is? How does this defeat the point that there's serious issue with portrayal of women in Shone?



1. actually no not generalization much, I read all genres and plenty of shoujo, and give or take alot of them have male leads like that; look up the word generalization before you use it

2. the point is we are talking about manga here , and you and the OP are trying to make some kind of socialism point here, its entertainment, who cares, there is a point when you take PC crap too far and it just becomes absurd and no longer a valid social criticism, and this is one of those cases.


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## Inuhanyou (Feb 17, 2012)

I think it personally comes down to what author your reading from. it doesnt matter the demographic(shounen seinen shoujo ect) because that assumes your placing the mindset of the characters and the world into that box.


For me, i like to have a balance of character types, but it doesn't really matter what kind of character they are if they aren't 

1. well written

2. competent


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## Special Agent Sugar (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm gonna go with claymore on this one.


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## Lightysnake (Feb 17, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *Rin has never been portrayed as being wholly dependent on anyone. She's a capable person. There aren't many women in the series but the women that are there are portrayed pretty well. *


*

Put her in a room with Toriko, see where that strength and independence goes. She spends most of her screentime slavering over him. 




			The women in Claymore are obviously going to be more fleshed out than women in most shounen, since 90% of the characters that actually matter are women. Portraying either gender well is all about balance, Claymore may flesh out it's women but that's not necessarily the same thing as portraying it's women well.
		
Click to expand...

*
With all the male dominated Shonen, I'm not going to wring my hands and complain one has a female dominated cast. It's far more 'equal' to have one of those in the ocean of male-dominated Shonen manga. 



Kira U. Masaki said:


> 1. actually no not generalization much, I read all genres and plenty of shoujo, and give or take alot of them have male leads like that; look up the word generalization before you use it



Yeah, it actually is. When you use the words 'all in this genre', strongly consider the possibility you're generalizing. And even then, you're really oversimplifying it as well



> 2. the point is we are talking about manga here , and you and the OP are trying to make some kind of socialism point here,



Socialism? The fuck?



> its entertainment, who cares, there is a point when you take PC crap too far and it just becomes absurd and no longer a valid social criticism, and this is one of those cases.



Right. Complaining that women are often completely marginalized in manga outside of the ones they're 'supposed' to write is just totally invalid.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 17, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> Put her in a room with Toriko, see where that strength and independence goes. She spends most of her screentime slavering over him.



*It doesn't go anywhere. She's just as strong and independent with Toriko as she is without. Her swooning over him does not somehow make her less of a competent and capable female character. *



> With all the male dominated Shonen, I'm not going to wring my hands and complain one has a female dominated cast. It's far more 'equal' to have one of those in the ocean of male-dominated Shonen manga.



*The point of this thread is which active shounen contains the best portrayal of women, not which active shounen portrays females as equals to men of other shounen series. The fact that other shounen have a more male dominated cast is completely irrelevant in whether or not Claymore's portrayal of women is the best. 

*


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## KazeYama (Feb 18, 2012)

Claymore isn't really shounen. Also if you consider the fact that all the women in the series are basically slaves to an evil organization and test subjects for creating biological weapons and that men are the ones pulling the strings and manipulating them every step of the way it kind of changes how you look at the work as a whole. I do agree it has several strong female characters but that comes naturally when the way the plot is set up 90% of the characters will be women. Kudos to the author for doing something off the beaten path though. 

I'm actually trying to think of any true shounen manga that have had a female as the main protagonist/antagonist. I guess Soul Eater does a pretty good job of balancing the male and female cast in terms of importance and strength.


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## hehey (Feb 18, 2012)

KazeYama said:


> Claymore isn't really shounen.


Is it serialized in  a Shounen magazine?, 

The answer is yes, so its a shounen.

case closed.


DemonDragonJ said:


> _Shonen_ manga series are, by definition, intended to be read by young male readers, typically those between the ages of 12 and 18, and, as such, they contain elements that are thought to appeal to such readers, such as grand adventures in vast and fantastic worlds, awesome battles and fight scenes, and an emphasis on friendship and camaraderie. However, I have seen numerous _shonen_ series being accused of having negative portrayals of female characters, such as by making them clearly inferior to male characters, not being as central to their stories, or by being to emotional in comparison to the male characters. Some readers defend this trend by saying that, as _shonen_ series are meant for male readers, it is to be expected, but *I believe that that is not an acceptable excuse.*



I have a problem with the idea that there needs to be an excuse.

Its made for guys is not an axcuse, its merely the reason shounen manga are the way taht they are (by definition its manga for boys).

Anyway, there doesnt need to be an "excuse" for things to be the way they are.


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## PlacidSanity (Feb 18, 2012)

I would go with Claymore and Broken Blade.


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## Lightysnake (Feb 18, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *It doesn't go anywhere. She's just as strong and independent with Toriko as she is without. Her swooning over him does not somehow make her less of a competent and capable female character. *



'Swooning' is putting it mildly. She gushes over him incessantly, has far too much dependence on him and given his saliva even saves her life at one point?




> *The point of this thread is which active shounen contains the best portrayal of women, not which active shounen portrays females as equals to men of other shounen series. The fact that other shounen have a more male dominated cast is completely irrelevant in whether or not Claymore's portrayal of women is the best. *


*

Claymore's still is. For multiple reasons. And complaints 'it's too lopsided' ring hollow

*


KazeYama said:


> Claymore isn't really shounen.



Yes it is. That's the official classification



> Also if you consider the fact that all the women in the series are basically slaves to an evil organization and test subjects for creating biological weapons and that men are the ones pulling the strings and manipulating them every step of the way it kind of changes how you look at the work as a whole.



That's the *premise*. An enormous part of the work is them rebelling against that fate and breaking free.



> I do agree it has several strong female characters but that comes naturally when the way the plot is set up 90% of the characters will be women. Kudos to the author for doing something off the beaten path though.



No, that's not a natural consequence. Plenty works with tons of women can come off shockingly misognyist


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 18, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> 'Swooning' is putting it mildly. She gushes over him incessantly, has far too much dependence on him and given his saliva even saves her life at one point?



*And her swooning over Toriko somehow makes her less of a competent person? Exactly. whether or not she swoons over him is irrelevant, she's still a strong and capable woman regardless. *



> Claymore's still is. For multiple reasons. And complaints 'it's too lopsided' ring hollow


*
It rings hollow because you want it to? Fact of the matter is that the two genders are supposed to compliment each other and none of that goes on in Claymore. Honestly, the women in Claymore are barely even portrayed as women half the time. I love Claymore but saying it portrays women the best is like saying a shojo where all the main characters are men would portray men well.  
*


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## Lightysnake (Feb 18, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *And her swooning over Toriko somehow makes her less of a competent person? Exactly. whether or not she swoons over him is irrelevant, she's still a strong and capable woman regardless. *



Put it this way: it's hard to call her a shining example of a female character when she is almost entirely defined b her relationship to and feelings over guys.



> *
> It rings hollow because you want it to? Fact of the matter is that the two genders are supposed to compliment each other and none of that goes on in Claymore. Honestly, the women in Claymore are barely even portrayed as women half the time. I love Claymore but saying it portrays women the best is like saying a shojo where all the main characters are men would portray men well.
> *


[/Quote]

Oh, the two genders are supposed to COMPLIMENT eachother. That's a requirement you just apparently created? And 'barely portrayed as women,' wtf does that mean? They're women. It's what they are. They act like people.


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## angieness (Feb 18, 2012)

For currently active, Claymore if you don't care about the male to female ratio. Naruto..well we all know how that series ignores female characters. One Piece...even though I think both Nami and Robin have their own merits, they're still sex appeal. Bleach has it's share of strong women but again, sex appeal. Toriko I haven't read in a long time, I don't remember there being women. Beezlebub sort of..the women are mostly on equal footing strength wise but a lot of the women are wet nurses. (although to be fair, Beezlebub is fair about being equally silly with all the characters regardless of gender)

I always found Fullmetal Alchemist to be the best at portraying women, it probably helps that the artist is female. I believe this because there's a wide variety of women, they're not  shown as sex objects, and each have a fairly distinct personality. As a woman myself, I don't really see it as important that we're portrayed as physically strong, as long as the characters are solid and well done I don't care how strong they are. FMA did have its share of physically strong women, but each female character had their own merits regardless of physical strength.

Another manga that has fantastic female characters was Nausicaa, even though it's not shonen.


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## Inuhanyou (Feb 18, 2012)

^ Remember, this is only counting "Active" shounen. FMA is done 

If we were counting any shounen from any time period, there would be a lot more to choose from


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## Basilikos (Feb 18, 2012)

KazeYama said:


> Claymore isn't really shounen.


Uh, yes it is.



> Also if you consider the fact that all the women in the series are basically slaves to an evil organization and test subjects for creating biological weapons and that men are the ones pulling the strings and manipulating them every step of the way it kind of changes how you look at the work as a whole. I do agree it has several strong female characters but that comes naturally when the way the plot is set up 90% of the characters will be women. Kudos to the author for doing something off the beaten path though.


Yeah, except, no. 

Those guys you mention are:

1) Rarely seen
2) Are not the least bit likable as characters
3) Never get any character development
4) All the kicking ass and taking names is done by the females in the series


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## Platinum (Feb 18, 2012)

One Piece as a strong portrayal of women? Aren't like most of them ugly as shit and the rest are just fodder for Sanji to lust after .

Not as bad as most shonen but it's hardly a beacon of positive portrayal.


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## Stilzkin (Feb 18, 2012)

Platinum said:


> One Piece as a strong portrayal of women? Aren't like most of them ugly as shit and the rest are just fodder for Sanji to lust after .
> 
> Not as bad as most shonen but it's hardly a beacon of positive portrayal.



No, One Piece has two catergories of women, beautiful or hideous, but women are not portrayed as useless in the slightest.

Nami and Robin are the most rounded in intelligence out of the SH. Robin is one of the stronger SHs as well.

In the overall OP world you do have women in high ranking positions of power such as Hancock (a shichibukai and empress of her own island), Big Mom (a yonkou, one of the 4 strongest pirates in the world), and Tsuru (possibly the highest ranking VA aside from the now retired Garp).

Sanji may be a perv but he does respect women and even beats up guys who are perverted towrds them.

The only real negative thing about how women are portrayed in OP is that there is only two types.


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## Wuzzman (Feb 18, 2012)

The thing about Claymore is that it has great characters. Not great women. Sorry but Claymore chicks are indistinguishable from men with is usually the crutch of a lot of strong "physically" female characters in manga. 

I would say if you* just* considered Nami and no one else, Oda has one of the best female characters in fiction. Everyone besides her is either bland or one dimensional. Which describes a good majority of guys and girls in generally. Hell men wise if you just consider Sanji and Usope you probably have two of the best characters in fiction, besides that you hit a small speed bump in Luffy and it goes down like a water fall from there unless your describing a villain. 

Anne from knight run > thread.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 18, 2012)

Wow, I certainly started an intense debate here! 

However, I am very glad to have received so very many different opinions on this subject, as it helps me to be more analytical of the situation and think critically on this issue.

I have been planning to start a thread dedicated solely to discussing Kubo's portrayal of women in his series, but has that subject already been discussed sufficiently in this thread?


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## Wuzzman (Feb 18, 2012)

The funny this is no matter how terrible the big three are, neither kubo or oda portray women badly or go out of their way to make them one dimensional. Its just that bleaches plot actively trolls everyone, turning inoue into a "kursoki" bot for an entire arc, while at the same time she smacks the living shit out of one of the big bads. same with naruto (pre-timeskip anyway) great characters, massive non stop unforgivable trolling.


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## Golden Witch (Feb 18, 2012)

Eden no Ori would be my take considering the characters each have weaknesses and strengths balanced out by others to the point where the females play a major role into the story.

Hatsuse is a major boon with her photographic memory and was a major asset in the pyramid.
Maya is only second to Yarai in terms of fighting effectively fighting of Pristichampus',Argentavis and more.
Rion has proven her gymnastic ability inside the pyramid which played a role to finding out the pyramids secret along with Hatsuse.
Ayas agility is unrivalled of the group due to being a member of the track and field club and played a large factor in taking out the Titanis Walleris, taking out two herself and saving Akira.
Even 10 year old Miina is a strong ally due to her massive knowledge of Extinct Mammals which was the sole reason Sengoku's group even managed to defeat the Titanis,Propleopus and Smilodon at the same time.


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## Eisenheim (Feb 18, 2012)

Fairy Tail has the best portrayal of women. If you know what I mean.


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## Forces (Feb 18, 2012)

The Fist of Goa said:


> I think One Piece does pretty well in this area. Granted most of the women are quite sexualized, and there was that one female character whose super power was basically doing laundry... not to mention the whole love sickness thing.
> 
> However, there are many strong and capable female characters that have important roles in the story. The straw hats couldn't survive without Nami and Robin in the portal through which the readers experience one of the most important plot points.
> 
> ...




Yeah, forgot this was shonen only.


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## vanhellsing (Feb 18, 2012)

Platinum said:


> One Piece as a strong portrayal of women? Aren't like most of them ugly as shit and the rest are just fodder for Sanji to lust after .
> 
> Not as bad as most shonen but it's hardly a beacon of positive portrayal.



QFT but the people love to fanwank to retarded levels


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## Basilikos (Feb 18, 2012)

Wuzzman said:


> The thing about Claymore is that it has great characters. Not great women. Sorry but Claymore chicks are indistinguishable from men with is usually the crutch of a lot of strong "physically" female characters in manga.


You're putting women in a tiny box as what counts as them being great. Comes off as kind of chauvinistic, you know? Second, you need to get your eyes checked if people that are obviously female look just like guys to you.


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## Lightysnake (Feb 18, 2012)

Wuzzman said:


> The thing about Claymore is that it has great characters. Not great women. Sorry but Claymore chicks are indistinguishable from men with is usually the crutch of a lot of strong "physically" female characters in manga.
> 
> I would say if you* just* considered Nami and no one else, Oda has one of the best female characters in fiction. Everyone besides her is either bland or one dimensional. Which describes a good majority of guys and girls in generally. Hell men wise if you just consider Sanji and Usope you probably have two of the best characters in fiction, besides that you hit a small speed bump in Luffy and it goes down like a water fall from there unless your describing a villain.
> 
> Anne from knight run > thread.



What does this even mean? They're PEOPLE who act a certain way. And they happen to be women.

This is kind of the point of equality.


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## Wuzzman (Feb 18, 2012)

Women are different then men, hence why even care if their portrayed poorly if there is nothing inherently special/different about a woman's perspective. With a manga like claymore you have these cold calculating, lives to kill chicks who eventually as we understand it are really  relatively more complex and have a greater sense of loyalty, honor and sacrifice then we originally led to believe. The claire from chapter 1 is not the same claire who swears to find Raki, because that was her first bond. But that role, a universe revolving around "men with no names", is for all intent and purposes can be played by men with the same effect, same emotion, same perspective. Nothing would change about claymore if they were all men instead of girls, not dialogue, not relationships, not even decisions. And quite frankly THATS not equality but blandness. Gender equality is not creating a unisex world. Men and women can fight together, die together but we don't shower together or use the same bathrooms. 

This is why again Annie from Knight Run > thread, she is not a guy and can not be substituted for a guy without fucking with a lot of the subtext, tone, dialogue, ect.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 18, 2012)

*Women and men are equals, but that does not change the fact that they are different. The claymores had their womanhood stolen from them, that's actually one of the main points of the story. Females who've had their womanhood snatched from them are not going to be the best portrayed women no matter how you look at it. *


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## Malvingt2 (Feb 18, 2012)

Weird this thread is going on and yet to see any words from one of my favorite mangas..




*Spoiler*: __ 



 Slayers!!!


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## Wuzzman (Feb 18, 2012)

one of the fringe geniuses of claymore is making the claymore women as part of the mythos instead of going welp we never tried this on guys like freezing.....


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## Basilikos (Feb 18, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *Women and men are equals, but that does not change the fact that they are different. The claymores had their womanhood stolen from them, that's actually one of the main points of the story. Females who've had their womanhood snatched from them are not going to be the best portrayed women no matter how you look at it. *




Already addressed this. Point is, they're the central characters who actually progress the plot, do the fighting, and receive character growth.



Wuzzman said:


> Nothing would change about claymore if they were all men instead of girls, not dialogue, not relationships, not even decisions. And quite frankly THATS not equality but blandness. Gender equality is not creating a unisex world. Men and women can fight together, die together but we don't shower together or use the same bathrooms.
> 
> This is why again Annie from Knight Run > thread, she is not a guy and can not be substituted for a guy without fucking with a lot of the subtext, tone, dialogue, ect.


Blandness (merely your opinion) =/= inequality or unisex worlds.


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## Blinky (Feb 18, 2012)

Shounen tend not to worry too much about gender roles since there are demographics devoted to women (shoujo and erm... the women one that I can't remember) 

If you're a fan of shounen you can accept the fact that it has a male slant without it making you a flaming mysoginist so chill.


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## Lightysnake (Feb 18, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *Women and men are equals, but that does not change the fact that they are different. The claymores had their womanhood stolen from them, that's actually one of the main points of the story. Females who've had their womanhood snatched from them are not going to be the best portrayed women no matter how you look at it. *



They've had their *humanity* taken from them, not their womanhood. They're still women. In fact, I don't recall them EVER bringing up how they're supposed to be 'women' as opposed to 'humans,' and evem then it's kind of a point how they're still human beings.

So nice try.


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## Mist Puppet (Feb 18, 2012)

Medaka Box. Nisio's "portrayal" of women is something I approve of


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## Lightysnake (Feb 18, 2012)

Blinky said:


> Shounen tend not to worry too much about gender roles since there are demographics devoted to women (shoujo and erm... the women one that I can't remember)
> 
> If you're a fan of shounen you can accept the fact that it has a male slant without it making you a flaming mysoginist so chill.



Male slant =/= terrible portrayal of women that most shonen have. And OP isn't as good with it as its fans like to pretend


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## Blinky (Feb 18, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> Male slant =/= terrible portrayal of women that most shonen have. And OP isn't as good with it as its fans like to pretend



But this is a big problem that's present in Japan isn't it? Don't they have these huge issues with misogyny? Of course that's going to come across in their entertainment. 

I'm not trying to be an apoligiser I'm just saying anyone is free to just _not really care_ about that. And the fact there is plenty of manga which is written by women for women helps (even if it's just a little) to balance this out. 

But basically this is a country where women are regularly raped on public transport so to me their comics are small potatoes.


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## KazeYama (Feb 18, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> They've had their *humanity* taken from them, not their womanhood. They're still women. In fact, I don't recall them EVER bringing up how they're supposed to be 'women' as opposed to 'humans,' and evem then it's kind of a point how they're still human beings.
> 
> So nice try.



Well I don't know what he means by "womanhood" but they do lose the capability to produce children after becoming claymores. Also the whole reason they use women in the first place is because the male claymores were too strong and hard to control. It is kind of hard to say best portrayal of women because such a statement ultimately requires a portrayal of men to compare it to which Claymore is kind of lacking since it has few male characters. Also there is a fundamental difference between portraying female characters as equal to males by giving them masculine characteristics and letting female characters be equal to males by letting them retain feminine qualities but giving them equal development and importance in the story. 

That is one of the issues I have with feminism in the first place is that men and women shouldn't be equal in all ways you can have equal treatment and give equal respect to both genders without being gender neutral and ignoring male and female differences entirely. 

I still like Soul Eater since it has multiple female characters as main antagonists like Medusa, Arachna, Crona?, and then Maka as the main character along with Soul.


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## hehey (Feb 18, 2012)

angieness said:


> For currently active, Claymore if you don't care about the male to female ratio. Naruto..well we all know how that series ignores female characters. One Piece...even though I think both Nami and Robin have their own merits, they're still *sex appeal*. *Bleach has it's share of strong women but again*,* sex appeal*. Toriko I haven't read in a long time, I don't remember there being women. Beezlebub sort of..the women are mostly on equal footing strength wise but a lot of the women are wet nurses. (although to be fair, Beezlebub is fair about being equally silly with all the characters regardless of gender)


That's not fair for Bleach, cause fact of the matter is most of the female characters are not just sex appeal, yeah there are a lot that are really really sexy and its emphasized but it is by no means a majority of them.

Besides, whats' wrong with sex appeal in manga that are supposed to be made for guys in mind?


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## Lightysnake (Feb 18, 2012)

KazeYama said:


> Well I don't know what he means by "womanhood" but they do lose the capability to produce children after becoming claymores.



Which causes zero angst to them



> Also the whole reason they use women in the first place is because the male claymores were too strong and hard to control.



Bullshit. This is grossly forgetting the manga. They used women because males awakened too easily. It had nothing to do with power. 



> It is kind of hard to say best portrayal of women because such a statement ultimately requires a portrayal of men to compare it to which Claymore is kind of lacking since it has few male characters.



No, you need to simply look at how women are portrayed in the manga.



> Also there is a fundamental difference between portraying female characters as equal to males by giving them masculine characteristics and letting female characters be equal to males by letting them retain feminine qualities but giving them equal development and importance in the story.



Because all women are just feminine and girly (and then you can look at Galatea, Flora, Anastasia or many of the Claymores who are quite feminine despite being kickass warriors)



> That is one of the issues I have with feminism in the first place is that men and women shouldn't be equal in all ways you can have equal treatment and give equal respect to both genders without being gender neutral and ignoring male and female differences entirely.



Another person bashing about feminism without even understanding the term, right.


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## Blinky (Feb 18, 2012)

protip: if you want your arguement taken seriously avoid saying feminism is stupid.


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## hehey (Feb 18, 2012)

KazeYama said:


> It is kind of hard to say best portrayal of women because such a statement ultimately requires a portrayal of men to compare it to which Claymore is kind of lacking since it has few male characters.


Wut?, the hell is this?

With this logic i could say some shit like "its hard to say that Hunter X Hunter/Holyland/Shamo/[insert shonen/seinen manga with majority male cast] has a good portrayal of male characters because there are too few women characters to compare them too".

Its nonsense/


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## Doc Q (Feb 18, 2012)

If an author has a preference (consciously or not) for a certain sex as the key characters in his/her work, the author has the right to do so. 

Sexism works quite like racism on this matter, the people who bitch the most about it empower sexism the most.  I doubt a lot of shounen authors are trying to make a statement on how roles should be divided between the sexes with their works.


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## Lightysnake (Feb 18, 2012)

Doc Q said:


> If an author has a preference (consciously or not) for a certain sex as the key characters in his/her work, the author has the right to do so.
> 
> Sexism works quite like racism on this matter, the people who bitch the most about it empower sexism the most.  I doubt a lot of shounen authors are trying to make a statement on how roles should be divided between the sexes with their works.



Death of the Author and internalized viewpoints play kidn of a big part here


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## hehey (Feb 18, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> *Death of the Author *and internalized viewpoints play kidn of a big part here


wut? is this some kind of super typo?


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## Lightysnake (Feb 18, 2012)

No. It's a style of literary criticism


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 18, 2012)

Basilikos said:


> Already addressed this. Point is, they're the central characters who actually progress the plot, do the fighting, and receive character growth.
> 
> 
> Blandness (merely your opinion) =/= inequality or unisex worlds.



*It does not matter that they are the central characters, that doesn't change whether or not they are being presented well as women. Which they are not, because they aren't supposed to. *



Lightysnake said:


> They've had their *humanity* taken from them, not their womanhood. They're still women. In fact, I don't recall them EVER bringing up how they're supposed to be 'women' as opposed to 'humans,' and evem then it's kind of a point how they're still human beings.
> 
> So nice try.



*Which also resulted in their womanhood being taken away from them. Portraying women well involves actually portraying women as women. For that we need to see at least somethings from a woman's point of view. We don't. So far we could turn the claymores into men and almost nothing would change. *

*The characters in claymore are well written, but that does not mean they portray women well. The opposite, they were never meant to portray women well. *


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## Lightysnake (Feb 18, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *It does not matter that they are the central characters, that doesn't change whether or not they are being presented well as women. Which they are not, because they aren't supposed to. *



"Women are warriors in this, so it doesn't portray women well!"
You mean it doesn't conform to gender stereotypes.




> *Which also resulted in their womanhood being taken away from them. Portraying women well involves actually portraying women as women. For that we need to see at least somethings from a woman's point of view. We don't. So far we could turn the claymores into men and almost nothing would change. *



So, equality? In other words, it presents women as PEOPLE in a defiance of common stereotypes. You're focused on their 'womanhood' being taken from them (whatever the fuck that means), rather than their humanity, and even then, there's still people who are human beings and women. Galatea, Flora, Anastasia? All of them are quite feminine and haven't let that go.



> *The characters in claymore are well written, but that does not mean they portray women well. The opposite, they were never meant to portray women well. *



I'm sorry, we're being educated on good portrayals of women by someone who can't even define what that means and goes by the name 'Pimp of Pimps.' Yeah. All you've done is say 'they're not portrayed as women' and claim 'but if they were men nothing'd change' (yeah, I'm sure) and then claim there's no 'equality' in it. It reeks of someone who can't stand being the slightest bit challenged


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## EpicBroFist (Feb 18, 2012)

*Claymore* does a pretty good job, although that would be obvious since most of the cast are females and the plot and character development evolves around them. Also the only important male characters in that manga are Raki and Isley, Raki would get his ass handed to him by pretty much every female in the manga while Isley who is actually probably one of the strongest characters in the manga is dead now 

*One Piece* does a pretty good job because there are several female characters that are important in the show and get a lot of character development like Dadan, Robin, and Nami. Although the manga might get some problems with the physical portrayal of women.


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## Stilzkin (Feb 18, 2012)

hehey said:


> That's not fair for Bleach, cause fact of the matter is most of the female characters are not just sex appeal, yeah there are a lot that are really really sexy and its emphasized but it is by no means a majority of them.



Bleach is the worst out of the HST in terms of fanservice (as in the fact that it does it the most).

There is an obvious flauntation of the large breasts of 90% of the female cast. 

There is few female characters with realistic bodies, much less than in the other two series. The ones without perfect bodies are also the ones given romantic plot lines.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 18, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> "Women are warriors in this, so it doesn't portray women well!"
> You mean it doesn't conform to gender stereotypes.



*I never said anything about the main characters of Claymore not being portrayed well as women because they were warriors. Don't put words in my mouth. It's completely possible to portray women well while also having them as capable warriors. *



> So, equality? In other words, it presents women as PEOPLE in a defiance of common stereotypes. You're focused on their 'womanhood' being taken from them (whatever the fuck that means), rather than their humanity, and even then, there's still people who are human beings and women. Galatea, Flora, Anastasia? All of them are quite feminine and haven't let that go.



*Equality? Men and women are different. The two genders are not the same. There is a reason women dress differently from men, little girls generally play with dolls and little boys don't, women are often more sexualized than men, across most species men are more solitary, across most species females take care of the young etc. Men and women are equal, not because we are the same, but because we compliment one another. Yin and yang. No matter what excuse you may try and come up with, the women of Claymore are generally barely portrayed as women. The fact that they are women barely affects the story, the only time it does is the few remarks we get about the Claymores only being female or the one or two who actually kept some feminine qualities. *



> I'm sorry, we're being educated on good portrayals of women by someone who can't even define what that means and goes by the name 'Pimp of Pimps.' Yeah. All you've done is say 'they're not portrayed as women' and claim 'but if they were men nothing'd change' (yeah, I'm sure) and then claim there's no 'equality' in it. It reeks of someone who can't stand being the slightest bit challenged


*
You resorting to trying to use my username against me is proof you're being driven into a corner. First of all, it's just a username. My username tells you nothing about me. I actually despise pimps because they are trash. Second of all, I didn't choose this username. It was given to me as a joke by an admin and I decided to keep it. And to make matters worse you're not even trying to refute anything I said in this paragraph, you're just repeating what I said in an effort to drive me off. another sign you're being driven into a corner.

If you disagree with the idea the Claymore's being men would drastically change the story up until this point then prove it. *


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## Lightysnake (Feb 18, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *I never said anything about the main characters of Claymore not being portrayed well as women because they were warriors. Don't put words in my mouth. It's completely possible to portray women well while also having them as capable warriors. *



Oh, then do tell us just HOW that happens. you haven't really said much of anything here. Just 'they're not portrayed as women.'




> *Equality? Men and women are different. The two genders are not the same. There is a reason women dress differently from men, little girls generally play with dolls and little boys don't, women are often more sexualized than men, across most species men are more solitary, across most species females take care of the young etc.*


*

It's called 'social construct' with people.
So we don't see the Claymores acting sexualized (Despite the lesbian undertones to the series) or taking care of kids so, they just aren't portrayed as women




			Men and women are equal, not because we are the same, but because we compliment one another. Yin and yang. No matter what excuse you may try and come up with, the women of Claymore are generally barely portrayed as women.
		
Click to expand...


Which means what precisely? They're women who happen to be badass warriors and thus act differently. Sorry if that offends your delicate notions of what women 'should' be




			The fact that they are women barely affects the story, the only time it does is the few remarks we get about the Claymores only being female or the one or two who actually kept some feminine qualities.
		
Click to expand...

*
What 'feminine' qualities are you even talking about now? Why should their gender 'affect the story' now? Isn't being pretty neutral a positive?



> *
> You resorting to trying to use my username against me is proof you're being driven into a corner. First of all, it's just a username. My username tells you nothing about me. I actually despise pimps because they are trash. Second of all, I didn't choose this username. It was given to me as a joke by an admin and I decided to keep it. And to make matters worse you're not even trying to refute anything I said in this paragraph, you're just repeating what I said in an effort to drive me off. another sign you're being driven into a corner.*


*

'Into a corner?' You're barely making an argument. You're now throwing around some base trash for your arguments and making precisely zero sense in your arguments. How does Goku being a guy affect the plot of Dragonball? Turn Gon into a girl and HXH is still the same. Naruto, Luffy, Ichigo...them being male affects nothing. But the double standard for Claymore is because...?

And geez, I got in one dig for humor.




			If you disagree with the idea the Claymore's being men would drastically change the story up until this point then prove it.
		
Click to expand...

*
Who cares? they're not men. They're women. Well portrayed, fleshed out and given depth.


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## Stilzkin (Feb 18, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> It's called 'social construct' with people.
> So we don't see the Claymores acting sexualized (Despite the lesbian undertones to the series) or taking care of kids so, they just aren't portrayed as women
> 
> .



No, gender roles have a much larger biological origins then people often give them credit for, probably because people don't want to admit the differences in the sexs due to fear of discrimination.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 18, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> Oh, then do tell us just HOW that happens. you haven't really said much of anything here. Just 'they're not portrayed as women.'



*Not being able to give birth, most don't care about their appearance, have literally no interest in men and much more. It's not even just about these stuff, it's the fact that these things are not highlighted. Switch the claymores for men and there'd be virtually no difference to the story.  *



> It's called 'social construct' with people.
> So we don't see the Claymores acting sexualized (Despite the lesbian undertones to the series) or taking care of kids so, they just aren't portrayed as women


*Wrong. It's not social construct, not all of it at least. Men and women are wired differently. If one male and one female was raised away from society they'd behave differently because they are supposed to. This is a fact. *



> Which means *what* precisely? They're women who happen to be badass warriors and thus act differently. Sorry if that offends your delicate notions of what women 'should' be


*If you don't know what it means then you've either been living in a box your entire life or are lying to yourself every chance you get. A woman can be a badass warrior and still act like a woman. See Erza from Fairy Tail, Boa Hancock from One Piece or Wonder Woman. All badass warriors that are unquestionably portrayed as women. Claymores are just characters that happen to be women, big diffeence. *



> What 'feminine' qualities are you even talking about now? Why should their gender 'affect the story' now? Isn't being pretty neutral a positive?


*Why shouldn't their gender affect the story? Everything should influence a story. Where the main characters come from, what they went though, whether they are male or female, how rich or poor they were growing up etc should all be important to some level in a perfect story. Gender is not an exception. 

In Claymore the main characters being women not greatly influencing the story isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean that it can't be one of the best portrayals of women in shounen. *



> 'Into a corner?' You're barely making an argument. You're now throwing around some base trash for your arguments and making precisely zero sense in your arguments. How does Goku being a guy affect the plot of Dragonball? Turn Gon into a girl and HXH is still the same. Naruto, Luffy, Ichigo...them being male affects nothing. But the double standard for Claymore is because...?
> 
> And geez, I got in one dig for humor.


*All the series you mentioned would change drastically if the main characters were turned into females. All those guys behave like men and the women in the series generally behave like women. Luffy going to the Isle of Women wouldn't have been a big deal if he wasn't a guy. Hancock would have never fell in love with him. In Claymore gender just doesn't really matter much. *



> Who cares? they're not men. They're women. Well portrayed, fleshed out and given depth.


*Did I ever say otherwise? I even made a point of mentioning more than once that the main characters of Claymore are well written. That just doesn't necessarily mean that they are (or are even meant to) portray the female gender itself particularly well. *


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Feb 18, 2012)

Rather entertaining thread you've got going here.


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## Lightysnake (Feb 18, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *Not being able to give birth, most don't care about their appearance, have literally no interest in men and much more. It's not even just about these stuff, it's the fact that these things are not highlighted. Switch the claymores for men and there'd be virtually no difference to the story.  *



Oh, right. They're not women because they can't have kids, don't care about their appearances (because all women are VAIN dammit) and don't have time for romance. This is so ridiculous I can't even begin to form a thought towards it. By your logic with Luffy later, it'd change everything because Galatea wouldn't be a nun, for starters.

And then there's Clarice who's timid and unsure...Flora, Anastasia, Dietrich, Helen and Deneve...

Claymore is very much a woman's story. It just makes you uncomfortable they're not the women you expected to see.



> *Wrong. It's not social construct, not all of it at least. Men and women are wired differently. If one male and one female was raised away from society they'd behave differently because they are supposed to. This is a fact. *



Good thing we're humans with capacity for reason and logic.



> *If you don't know what it means then you've either been living in a box your entire life or are lying to yourself every chance you get. A woman can be a badass warrior and still act like a woman. See Erza from Fairy Tail, Boa Hancock from One Piece or Wonder Woman. All badass warriors that are unquestionably portrayed as women. Claymores are just characters that happen to be women, big diffeence. *



Hahhahahha, Hancock, whose entire characterization revolves around Luffy? You list her as a positive? 
And you might want to look at the Amazons as a whole. Most don't care about appearances or men and don't give birth. That's different how? Because they 'happen to be women' it means they're 'less' of women.



> *Why shouldn't their gender affect the story? Everything should influence a story. Where the main characters come from, what they went though, whether they are male or female, how rich or poor they were growing up etc should all be important to some level in a perfect story. Gender is not an exception. *


*

Okay, and so do Female Claymores: it's why they control their powers better than the males did.




			In Claymore the main characters being women not greatly influencing the story isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean that it can't be one of the best portrayals of women in shounen.
		
Click to expand...

*
So their genders being neutral to the story means it's not a good portrayal of women.
So the fact that it presents a frank, clear look at women who are warriors and are unconcerned with typical girly things, they're not woman enough?
Your argument is pathetic



> *All the series you mentioned would change drastically if the main characters were turned into females. All those guys behave like men and the women in the series generally behave like women. *


*
Flip the genders and have them act the same. Nothing changes




			Luffy going to the Isle of Women wouldn't have been a big deal if he wasn't a guy. Hancock would have never fell in love with him. In Claymore gender just doesn't really matter much.
		
Click to expand...

*
Except to the whole thing about, y'know, Awakening. Make Hancock a guy then and Luffy a girl. Nothing still changes.
Hilarious how you had to reach...what, 500 chapters in for something to change in OP?



> *Did I ever say otherwise? I even made a point of mentioning more than once that the main characters of Claymore are well written. That just doesn't necessarily mean that they are (or are even meant to) portray the female gender itself particularly well. *



No, they simply do without trying too hard. Plenty of them are also quite 'girly' in addition to being exemplary warriors and others are quite 'butch.'


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## vanhellsing (Feb 18, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *If you don't know what it means then you've either been living in a box your entire life or are lying to yourself every chance you get. A woman can be a badass warrior and still act like a woman. See Erza from Fairy Tail, Boa Hancock from One Piece or Wonder Woman. All badass warriors that are unquestionably portrayed as women.  *



sorry but comparing Diana with hancock its just sad , Diana she has a very well depleloment and hancock only has just Hype and zero depleloment on her feats  i give a shit of erza lmao


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## Stilzkin (Feb 18, 2012)

vanhellsing said:


> sorry but comparing Diana with hancock its just sad , Diana she has a very well depleloment and hancock only has just Hype and zero depleloment on her feats  i give a shit of erza lmao



Think you are missing his point. He's not comparing them at all, not in the sense of which is better at least. He is grouping them into a catergory.

This is like him saying Diana and Hancock are both amazons and you responding about how Diana could solo the OP verse.


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## Killerqueen (Feb 18, 2012)




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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 18, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> Oh, right. They're not women because they can't have kids, don't care about their appearances (because all women are VAIN dammit) and don't have time for romance. This is so ridiculous I can't even begin to form a thought towards it. By your logic with Luffy later, it'd change everything because Galatea wouldn't be a nun, for starters.
> 
> And then there's Clarice who's timid and unsure...Flora, Anastasia, Dietrich, Helen and Deneve...
> 
> *Claymore is very much a woman's story.* It just makes you uncomfortable they're not the women you expected to see.



*That's why it's published in a magazine meant to be read by younger boys, right? 

And I never said the claymores aren't women, they obviously are, I said they aren't portrayed a women so much as they are characters that just happened to be women. Huge difference. If their womanhood is barely important to the story then obviously they can't be the best portrayed women in shounen. That would be like saying men in shounen can be portrayed well if manliness is never emphasized, which is stupid. 
* 


> Good thing we're humans with capacity for reason and logic.



*What does that have to do with anything? Humans being capable of reason and logic does not change the fact that men and women are wired differently and that the genders being wired differently plays a huge role in our day to day lives. Trying to deny that would in fact be illogical and unreasonable, our society would not be able to function properly if we ignored the fact that men and women have different, but equal, roles to fill. *



> Hahhahahha, Hancock, whose entire characterization revolves around Luffy? You list her as a positive?
> And you might want to look at the Amazons as a whole. Most don't care about appearances or men and don't give birth. That's different how? Because they 'happen to be women' it means they're 'less' of women.



*Why does it matter that Hancock's characterization revolves around Luffy? I don't care whether or not you think she's a good character. She's a badass female warrior who is very clearly portrayed a woman in all respects. And I never referenced the Amazons as a whole, there's a reason a singled out Diana. *



> Okay, and so do Female Claymores: it's why they control their powers better than the males did.



*What? I say gender is no exception and you reply with "so do female claymores." That doesn't make sense. *



> *So their genders being neutral to the story means it's not a good portrayal of women.*
> So the fact that it presents a frank, clear look at women who are warriors and are unconcerned with typical girly things, they're not woman enough?
> Your argument is pathetic



*Exactly. Claymore is an awesome story with awesome characters but it doesn't particularly focus on portraying the main characters as women beyond their appearance. *



> Flip the genders and have them act the same. Nothing changes



*They wouldn't act the same if their genders were flipped though, that's the entire point. The authors of these series clearly portray men and women as different, just like in the real world. *



> Except to the whole thing about, y'know, Awakening. Make Hancock a guy then and Luffy a girl. Nothing still changes.
> Hilarious how you had to reach...what, 500 chapters in for something to change in OP?



*So you have to resort to making Hancock a guy for your little idea to work? Despite the fact that she's the ruler of the Amazons? Even before Amazon Lily, things like manliness etc were emphasized. Look back at Little Garden. There are also minor things like Robin and Nami not getting the guys' fascination with Franky. Or Nami being a girly girl. Sanji swooning over women. Kuina being a girl was central to Zoro's past. *



vanhellsing said:


> sorry but comparing Diana with hancock its just sad , Diana she has a very well depleloment and hancock only has just Hype and zero depleloment on her feats  i give a shit of erza lmao



*Wonder Woman is by far the superior character, I agree. I was just listing examples of badass female warriors that are very obviously portrayed as women mentally and physically though, not necessarily good characters. *


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## hehey (Feb 18, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps what is this shit your arguing man?

Its like your saying that the women in Claymore aren't "women enough" to be considered well portrayed characters.... seriously what the hell.


Stilzkin said:


> *There is an obvious flauntation of the large breasts of 90% of the female cast. *
> 
> There is few female characters with realistic bodies, much less than in the other two series. The ones without perfect bodies are also the ones given romantic plot lines.


That statement is *mythical*. You cant even say that about half of the female characters in the series (not even close top half in fact) and you come out with this 90% stuff.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 18, 2012)

hehey said:


> Pimp of Pimps what is this shit your arguing man?
> 
> Its like your saying that the women in Claymore aren't "women enough" to be considered well portrayed characters.... seriously what the hell.



*This isn't complicated. 

Claymore doesn't focus much on the fact that the main characters are women, it's not about that. In fact it can't because it's so unbalanced. Claymore was never about the main characters being mistreated and strong women, it's about the main characters being mistreated and strong people that just happen to be women. *


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## Stilzkin (Feb 18, 2012)

hehey said:


> Pimp of Pimps what is this shit your arguing man?
> 
> Its like your saying that the women in Claymore aren't "women enough" to be considered well portrayed characters.... seriously what the hell.



Its a legimate argument.

Proper representation of women_ requires proper representation of women._

Just having female characters be warriors is not enough, not if they are for all otherwise characteristics men.

(not saying he is right but he is right in questioning Claymore in that way)



> That statement is *mythical*. You cant even say that about half of the female characters in the series (not even close top half in fact, maybe a quarter) and you come out with this 90% stuff.



Really?

Can you name some please? Don't mention young female characters as that doesn't make sense to sexualize and draw giant breasts to (though Kubo does make Shinji stick his fingers in to Hyori).

What female character is portrayed as an ugly?


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## Dream Brother (Feb 18, 2012)

I'm actually surprised there aren't more articles/blog posts out there about _Claymore_ in relation to gender. After reading bits of this debate, I looked around and I did find this:


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## hehey (Feb 18, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *This isn't complicated.
> 
> Claymore doesn't focus much on the fact that the main characters are women, it's not about that. In fact it can't because it's so unbalanced. Claymore was never about the main characters being mistreated and strong women, it's about the main characters being mistreated and strong people. *


what in the hell does that have anything to do with how well the characters are portrayed?

Since when does something have to focus on the fact that the characters are a certain gender for them to be good portrayals?

Yeah, Claymore doesn't focus on the fact that the characters are chicks, so what?, that doesn't affect their "portrayal".

I suppose Fist Of the North star and Saint Seiya, both of which were sausage fests, had bad portrayals of male characters because of the fact that the mangas didn't focus on their maleness?


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 18, 2012)

hehey said:


> *what in the hell does that have anything to do with how well the characters are portrayed?*
> 
> Since when does something have to focus on the fact that the characters are a certain gender for them to be good portrayals?
> 
> ...


*
Title of thread: 'Which Currently-Active Shonen Manga Series Contains the Best Portrayal of Women?'  *


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## Stilzkin (Feb 18, 2012)

hehey said:


> what in the hell does that have anything to do with how well the characters are portrayed?
> 
> Since when does something have to focus on the fact that the characters are a certain gender for them to be good portrayals?
> 
> Yeah, Claymore doesn't focus on the fact that the characters are chicks, so what?, that doesn't affect their "portrayal".



You seem to be confused about what this thread is about.




> I suppose Fist Of the North star and Saint Seiya, both of which were sausage fests, had bad portrayals of male characters because of the fact that the mangas didn't focus on their maleness?



You are both calling those series manly and saying there is no focus on maleness?

The quality of the portrayal of men in SS or Fist of the North Star depends on what you want to argue are the qualities of a man. If the series only portrays them as warriors and nothing else I would say that they are not good portrayals, as men are more than bloodthirsty fighters.


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## Wuzzman (Feb 18, 2012)

hehey said:


> what in the hell does that have anything to do with how well the *characters* are portrayed?
> 
> Since when does something have to focus on the fact that the characters are a certain gender for them to be good portrayals?
> 
> ...



Lolz. For all intent and purposes yes that is exactly what we are arguing. Because claymore women are not relatable to women as women that saying this is a prime example of womanhood is closet anime fan talk for "virgin", "never had a female friend who didn't think their gay" and etc etc. Why is claymore so successful as a shounen? Because it appeals to young boys whose jizz their pants over the typical "man with no name" character arch type which has been popular since Fist of the North Star.


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## hehey (Feb 18, 2012)

Stilzkin said:


> Really?
> 
> Can you name some please? Don't mention young female characters as that doesn't make sense to sexualize and draw giant breasts to (though Kubo does make Shinji stick his fingers in to Hyori).
> 
> *What female character is portrayed as an ugly?*


First of all, just because they dont have giant boobs doesn't mean that the characters are as you say, "ugly"

Anyway, fine, everyone i mention is older than Orihime or around the same age

Rukia, Chizuru, Michiru, Tatsuki, Lisa, Mashiro, Hiyori, Riruka, Soi-Fon, Unohana (actually i cant really tell due to her never removing her clothes or showing anything, but that fact itself makes her not an echhi or "fan service" themed character), Isane (same as unohana), Momo, Nanao, Kiyone, Cyan (the arranacar), 

Also i consider Nemu Kurotsuchi, Ichigo's boss lady, Cirucci and Jackie as well cause i dont think there's anything "unrealistic" about them or how they are drawn but i know people will argue with me about that so im alright with not counting them.

I was also going to say Loly and Melony but then i remembered how they dressed....





Stilzkin said:


> *You are both calling those series manly* and saying there is no focus on maleness?
> 
> The quality of the portrayal of men in SS or Fist of the North Star depends on what you want to argue are the qualities of a man. If the series only portrays them as warriors and nothing else I would say that they are not good portrayals, as men are more than bloodthirsty fighters.



No by sausage fests i mean their casts are pretty much all guys or mostly all guys.

and my point is that neither of those series spend any time focusing on the fact that "oh yeah, these are all dudes" or emphasizing the characters dudeness.

Fuck you could probably replace the casts of Saint Seiyas genders and itd be the same.

fist of the Noth star requires mad muscles so i cant say that about it but you also cant say the series was focused on Kenshiros dudeness or whatever.


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## Stilzkin (Feb 18, 2012)

hehey said:


> First of all, just because they dont have giant boobs doesn't mean that the characters are as you say, "ugly"



..and I didn't say they were.

I'm asking you if there is any female Belach characters which are ugly.



> Rukia



obviously



> Chizuru



I can't even remember how big her breasts are



> Michiru



Ah, that one girl who hasn't appeared in years. Was her name even mentioned by the characters in the manga?



> Tatsuki



Her breasts are actually not small, this was mentioned in some extra where Kon interviews her. They are small compared to the some of the other women in Bleach.




> Lisa, Mashiro



I'll give you those two



> Hiyori



Who has the body of a preteen girl (I don't care about the fact that she is a billion years old as a spirit).



> Riruka



Not that big

Remember my original point was that most women in Bleach are sexualized and I would say Riruka with her small but emphazized breats is somewhat sexuaized.



> Soi-Fon



I would lump her with Tatsuki.



> Unohana



they are big



> Momo



Seeing as she is with Hitsugaya I would say she is too young.




> Nanao



k



> Kiyone



who?



> Cyan



 ok



> Also i consider Nemu Kurotsuchi, Ichigo's boss lady, Cirucci and Jackie as well cause i dont think there's anything "unrealistic" about them or how they are drawn but i know people will argue with me about that so im alright with not counting them.



But they are pretty perfect female bodies in real life aren't they?

I remember Ichigo's boss has pretty big boobs (remember that Tatsuki is a something C). This doesn't help argue away the fact that Bleach girls are pretty much perfect (skinny, big breasts).

_Look at that list_

Most Bleach girls are in some ways a man's fantasy of women. The ones who don't have big breasts tend to be sexy librarian types. There is not one girl out of shape or elderly looking. You put Chizuru on your list and she is a horny lesbian character.

Out of all of them I think Rukia and Mashiro are the least sexualized.



> and my point is that neither of those series spend any time focusing on the fact that "oh yeah, these are all dudes" or emphasizing the characters dudeness.



Yea, and no one is saying series that are pure violence and fighiting are good portrayals of men or masculinity.


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## Wuzzman (Feb 18, 2012)

Lol if you wish to judge female characters by what you think makes them cool;

Fighting ability
Being treated as main characters.

Then yes Claymore fits the bill.

If you wish to judge female characters as women... claymore falls short.


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## Emerald Chaos (Feb 19, 2012)

Six pages in and no mention of Gintama?

For shame.


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## Lightysnake (Feb 19, 2012)

Wuzzman said:


> Lol if you wish to judge female characters by what you think makes them cool;
> 
> Fighting ability
> Being treated as main characters.
> ...



and nobody seems able to explain 'how.' They don't conform to gender stereotypes. Overall? They're women at the end of the day. 



Pimp of Pimps said:


> *That's why it's published in a magazine meant to be read by younger boys, right? *


*

Because where it's published has anything to do with it being a man's or woman's story, right? I've seen SHojo that are very much a guy's story. 




			And I never said the claymores aren't women, they obviously are, I said they aren't portrayed a women so much as they are characters that just happened to be women. Huge difference. If their womanhood is barely important to the story then obviously they can't be the best portrayed women in shounen. That would be like saying men in shounen can be portrayed well if manliness is never emphasized, which is stupid.
		
Click to expand...

*
Oh, right, MANLINESS AND TESTOSTERONE MUST BE EMPHASIZED FOR IT TO BE A GUY['S STORY!

All that's needed for it to be a woman's story is the mains to be women.  They don't 'act' like women you were expecting and you're being an uncomfortable little prat about it. They don't fret over boys, they don't care about having babies and they don't gush about their fashion sense, stop the presses they aren't women!



> *What does that have to do with anything? Humans being capable of reason and logic does not change the fact that men and women are wired differently and that the genders being wired differently plays a huge role in our day to day lives. Trying to deny that would in fact be illogical and unreasonable, our society would not be able to function properly if we ignored the fact that men and women have different, but equal, roles to fill. *



Spoken like a true gender-roles sexist! Women have equal roles. In the kitchen and bedroom of course!




> *Why does it matter that Hancock's characterization revolves around Luffy? I don't care whether or not you think she's a good character. She's a badass female warrior who is very clearly portrayed a woman in all respects.*


*

Who's entire life now revolves around a man.
Hint: it's hard being a good female character if your life begins and ends around a guy




			And I never referenced the Amazons as a whole, there's a reason a singled out Diana.
		
Click to expand...

*
So we'll just ignore the huge amount of women warriors besides? Diana isn't even a good character most often. She's a boring cipher with no real personality because no writer truly agrees how to write her. Only George Perez, Greg Rucka and Gail Simone (coincidentally the first woman to write her) have actually given her anything. And even then: Diana is not concerned about fashion, or children by and large and she is very, VERY rarely concerned about romance. She doesn't 'act' like a woman much either most times.




> *What? I say gender is no exception and you reply with "so do female claymores." That doesn't make sense. *



Read very, very carefully.




> *Exactly. Claymore is an awesome story with awesome characters but it doesn't particularly focus on portraying the main characters as women beyond their appearance. *



And it shouldn't need to do anything else. Inform me what focusing on them 'as women' would entail;




> *They wouldn't act the same if their genders were flipped though, that's the entire point. The authors of these series clearly portray men and women as different, just like in the real world. *


Gon would act exactly the same as a girl. So would Luffy (And now Hancock couldn't be gay?) And so would Naruto.
Their gender is wholly *irrelevant*. Turn Naruto into a girl and s/he is still the upbeat ninja who wants to get recognition. Gon would still want to find Ging and finish things there...Luffy would be the exact same (your only weak defense was how a tertiary character would react to him later).





> *So you have to resort to making Hancock a guy for your little idea to work? Despite the fact that she's the ruler of the Amazons? Even before Amazon Lily, things like manliness etc were emphasized. Look back at Little Garden. There are also minor things like Robin and Nami not getting the guys' fascination with Franky. Or Nami being a girly girl. Sanji swooning over women. Kuina being a girl was central to Zoro's past. *



Guess what: you didn't mention Luffy there at all. And even then, you can simply make Hancock's sexuality single 
I mean, I suppose someone with your total lack of observation might miss things in Claymore like Galatea becoming a mother figure to the orphans, Teresa becoming a mother figure to Clare, the sisterly affection and possible lesbian undertones between a few Claymores, Undine's actual form having far less impact if she were a guy...






> *Wonder Woman is by far the superior character, I agree. I was just listing examples of badass female warriors that are very obviously portrayed as women mentally and physically though, not necessarily good characters. *


[/Quote]

Idiotic and irrelevant qualifiers you make up



Stilzkin said:


> Its a legimate argument.
> Proper representation of women_ requires proper representation of women._



YOu're changing 'representation' into 'categories I make up.'



> Just having female characters be warriors is not enough, not if they are for all otherwise characteristics men.



Except we have male warriors in series to compar ethem to



> (not saying he is right but he is right in questioning Claymore in that way)



No, he isn't. He's, again, making up qualifiers and is being simply uncomfortable how Claymore challenges the stereotypes he's already created


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## KazeYama (Feb 19, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> All that's needed for it to be a woman's story is the mains to be women.  They don't 'act' like women you were expecting and you're being an uncomfortable little prat about it. They don't fret over boys, they don't care about having babies and they don't gush about their fashion sense, stop the presses they aren't women!
> 
> Guess what: you didn't mention Luffy there at all. And even then, you can simply make Hancock's sexuality single
> I mean, I suppose someone with your total lack of observation might miss things in Claymore like Galatea becoming a mother figure to the orphans, Teresa becoming a mother figure to Clare, the sisterly affection and possible lesbian undertones between a few Claymores, Undine's actual form having far less impact if she were a guy...



Here you are contradicting yourself. You say that all that needs for it to be a women's story is for there to be women characters. There are plenty of anime/manga out there that have a large cast of female characters but they are sexually exploited to a large degree. I wouldn't exactly call Freezing or Ikkitousen very good portrayals of women despite the fact that the central focus is on female characters. 

Also bringing up examples of sisterly or lesbian relationships in no way makes it a clear depiction of femininity or adds anything to the story to develop them as women characters. Are you seriously arguing that is something exclusive to women? I see it much more likely they are supposed to be mirroring males in this regard. The Claymores are being modeled off of stuff like Spartans or Knights in terms of their relationships they are acting in male gender roles not female ones in those regards.  

A manga needs to directly address gender issues and the relationship/interaction between the genders to portray characters realistically. Also the "best" portrayal of women is completely subjective because both men and women alike have different constructions of how genders should be and what the ideal is. 

Some people would argue that females should be capable of anything males are and that the genders should be equal in every respect in how they behave and think. Other people are arguing that is unrealistic and that the differences should be recognized and that females are best portrayed when their unique attributes are emphasized and appreciated. 

Most shounen manga tends to recognize males and females as fundamentally different but females are trivialized as sexual objects, plot devices, or support characters. In my opinion the best portrayal of women is a manga where they hold equal relevance in terms of the story, share equal time, and contribute equally in terms of the success of whatever conflict is the focal point of the story. Females don't have to be equal to the males in terms of strength so long as they are treated with respect. 

A few people have mentioned FMA, despite the fact that characters like Winry or Riza or Olivia didn't have the same power as male characters and that most alchemists were male it didn't degrade their characters.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 19, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> Because where it's published has anything to do with it being a man's or woman's story, right? I've seen SHojo that are very much a guy's story.



*So the target audience has no bearing on this? Right. *


> Oh, right, MANLINESS AND TESTOSTERONE MUST BE EMPHASIZED FOR IT TO BE A GUY['S STORY!
> 
> All that's needed for it to be a woman's story is the mains to be women.  They don't 'act' like women you were expecting and you're being an uncomfortable little prat about it. They don't fret over boys, they don't care about having babies and they don't gush about their fashion sense, stop the presses they aren't women!


*You're being pretty stupid. The fact of the matter is that women are different from men and men are different from women and not focusing on those differences at least somewhat does mean said gender isn't being portrayed in the best possible way it could. *



> Spoken like a true gender-roles sexist! Women have equal roles. In the kitchen and bedroom of course!


*Oh, please. Learn what sexism is before accusing others of being sexist. It's a fact that each gender has it's own strengths and weaknesses, stating that doesn't make me a sexist. *



> Who's entire life now revolves around a man.
> Hint: it's hard being a good female character *if your life begins and ends around a guy*


*But I'm not even talking about whether or not Hancock is a good character? why are you even bringing that up? I only ever said she was a badass female warrior who is portrayed as a woman in all respects, I never said anything about her being a good or a bad character. *



> So we'll just ignore the huge amount of women warriors besides? Diana isn't even a good character most often. She's a boring cipher with no real personality because no writer truly agrees how to write her. Only George Perez, Greg Rucka and Gail Simone (coincidentally the first woman to write her) have actually given her anything. And even then: Diana is not concerned about fashion, or children by and large and she is very, VERY rarely concerned about romance. She doesn't 'act' like a woman much either most times.


*Again, whether or not she's a good character is completely irrelevent to this discussion. I mentioned her because you said I don't consider the Claymore as the best representation of women because they are bad ass female warriors, Wonder Woman was just an example against your claim. *




> And it shouldn't need to do anything else. Inform me what focusing on them 'as women' would entail;


*I never said it has to do anything else. You have a bad habit of making things up. I only ever said it's not the best portrayal of women in shounen. If you want the best portrayal of women you need to portray them as actual women and not as females which for all extensive purposes may as well be men. *



> Gon would act exactly the same as a girl. So would Luffy (And now Hancock couldn't be gay?) And so would Naruto.
> Their gender is wholly *irrelevant*. Turn Naruto into a girl and s/he is still the upbeat ninja who wants to get recognition. Gon would still want to find Ging and finish things there...Luffy would be the exact same (your only weak defense was how a tertiary character would react to him later).


*None of those characters would act exactly the same as women. Nothing supports the belief that they would. Men and women act different because they are wired to act differently, if those characters suddenly turned into women their behavior patterns would change as well. *



> Guess what: you didn't mention Luffy there at all. And even then, you can simply make Hancock's sexuality single
> I mean, I suppose someone with your total lack of observation might miss things in Claymore like Galatea becoming a mother figure to the orphans, Teresa becoming a mother figure to Clare, the sisterly affection and possible lesbian undertones between a few Claymores, Undine's actual form having far less impact if she were a guy...


*Why do I need to specifically mention Luffy? Your argument was that these series would not change at all if the main characters (Sanji is one of the main characters of OP, so is Zoro) were turned into females. 

You seem to have this idea that men and women are exactly the same except for having different privates. Which is naivety at it's finest. Across every culture men and women are very clearly different. Even beyond humans, males and females of all species behave and live differently. *


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## Wuzzman (Feb 19, 2012)

Its the classic war between the virgins and the non virgins. Realistic view of women vs hyper fantasized view of women.


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## Kunoichiwa (Feb 19, 2012)

I believe that, while neither gender is superior to another, the genders are not the same.

There are differences between men and women, but those differences don't have to be emphasized for a character to be a positive portrayal of their gender.

If I make my character a strong, independent woman I do not have to focus on how much she loves gossip to nice outfits for her to be a positive portrayal of a woman.

If a character is female, and has admirable characteristics, then that is a positive portrayal of a woman.


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## Wuzzman (Feb 19, 2012)

Kunoichiwa said:


> I believe that, while neither gender is superior to another, the genders are not the same.
> 
> There are differences between men and women, but those differences don't have to be emphasized for a character to be a positive portrayal of their gender.
> 
> If I make my character a strong, independent woman I do not have to focus on how much she loves gossip to nice outfits for her to be a positive portrayal of a woman.



Even if you did it wouldn't be a positive portrayal of women unless your making a Disney sitcom for tweens.

I find it funny that one person is arguing that men and women are exactly the same and the only difference is the size of their boobs. I mean only in a manga/anime thread would this position not be shot down by dozens of posters.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 19, 2012)

Kunoichiwa said:


> I believe that, while neither gender is superior to another, the genders are not the same.
> 
> There are differences between men and women, but those differences don't have to be emphasized for a character to be a positive portrayal of their gender.
> 
> ...



*I agree with this. But if you're going to specifically ask which series has the best portrayal of women then portraying the characters as actual women becomes important. *


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## Matta Clatta (Feb 19, 2012)

I'd love to know what the people ragging on Claymore think a woman is supposed to act like in a fantasy setting. I'm sure it whatever response I get won't sexist at all.

Whoever is listing One Piece is basically admitting they only view women as shallow one note characters. You'd be hard pressed to see Nami or Robin who are the only multi faceted characters in the series receive development like you would expect from Luffy or zoro.


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## Stilzkin (Feb 19, 2012)

Matta Clatta said:


> Whoever is listing One Piece is basically admitting they only view women as shallow one note characters.



What do you mean by that?

Do you mean the female characters are made up of only a few characteristics and have no development? Because you could say that about most OP characters, both male and female. The characters are made of quirky, exaggerated, personality traits.




> You'd be hard pressed to see Nami or Robin who are the only multi faceted characters in the series receive development like you would expect from Luffy or zoro.



Like I said, is this unique to females in OP?

What development did Luffy and Zoro go through exactly? Nami and Robin may be the SH who changed the most in their respective arc storylines (both accepting to actually make friends which they had problems in doing).

Females in OP are diverse in abilities and not regulated to being background characters (like they are in Naruto). They are also quite clearly made to females and act differently from the male characters. The con is that we only have girls with extremly perfect bodies or really ugly women.


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## Lightysnake (Feb 19, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *So the target audience has no bearing on this? Right. *



Well, no. Boys reading a story doesn't make a different on who or what the story is about. Unless you want to say no boy would read a story about or for girls


> *You're being pretty stupid. The fact of the matter is that women are different from men and men are different from women and not focusing on those differences at least somewhat does mean said gender isn't being portrayed in the best possible way it could. *



"I'm going to be a pompous moron and assume that my portrayal of women is the only way they can be portrayed: as gentle and nurturing who giggle about boys and fashion and writing them any other way insults my preconceived notions!"

Women and men are different, sure. How does that change that a woman can still be portrayed as a warrior?



> *Oh, please. Learn what sexism is before accusing others of being sexist. It's a fact that each gender has it's own strengths and weaknesses, stating that doesn't make me a sexist. *



Coming from one who listed 'giggling about boys and their looks' as 'positive' feminine traits?
Spade is a spade.



> *But I'm not even talking about whether or not Hancock is a good character? why are you even bringing that up? I only ever said she was a badass female warrior who is portrayed as a woman in all respects, I never said anything about her being a good or a bad character. *



Except...she's not a good representation of women. At all. She's bitchy, and , lovesick utterly dependent on a man.
Inform me: what makes Clare or Helen less of a 'woman' than most anyone in OP? Unless you're going to argue tough, competent and independent women don't exist.

Oh noes, their gender doesn't define them, what a TRAGEDY.



> *Again, whether or not she's a good character is completely irrelevent to this discussion. I mentioned her because you said I don't consider the Claymore as the best representation of women because they are bad ass female warriors, Wonder Woman was just an example against your claim. *



Listing a bad character as a positive representation works against your point, I'm afraid. And Diana is hardly that 'womanly' most often. Her costume is simply blatant fanservice. Most times, she's unconcerned with most 'feminine' pursuits.




> *I never said it has to do anything else. You have a bad habit of making things up. I only ever said it's not the best portrayal of women in shounen. If you want the best portrayal of women you need to portray them as actual women and not as females which for all extensive purposes may as well be men. *



"I make up qualifiers as to what makes positive female characters because I DEFINE WHAT MAKES A WOMAN, DAMMIT!"



> *None of those characters would act exactly the same as women. Nothing supports the belief that they would. Men and women act different because they are wired to act differently, if those characters suddenly turned into women their behavior patterns would change as well. *



How would Gon change if he was a girl? Or Luffy? Or Naruto? Sorry, how tertiary characters react to them has no bearing on it.

If Naruto was a girl, he'd act the exact same way. Luffy would still be happy, upbeat and set on finding One Piece. Gon would act literally no different. They simply happen to be men.

Claymore has quite a diverse cast. I can just as well say, by your inane standards, Clare's emotional side, her relation to Raki, her gentle side, etc are all 'feminine' traits. 

I'd love to see you tell a female soldier she's not a 'real' woman, too because of how she acts.



> *Why do I need to specifically mention Luffy? Your argument was that these series would not change at all if the main characters (Sanji is one of the main characters of OP, so is Zoro) were turned into females. *


*

I meant the central character of it. And the funny thing is, you could easily redo them as women with minor tweaking. You could keep Sanji's desire to be a chef and take out his flirtatiousness  and have mostly the same person.

You could also make Robin a guy and alter more or less nothing about the character




			You seem to have this idea that men and women are exactly the same except for having different privates. Which is naivety at it's finest. Across every culture men and women are very clearly different. Even beyond humans, males and females of all species behave and live differently.
		
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*[/Quote]

You seem to have it into your head you define what makes a woman a woman and any deviation from that isn't a real women. 
It's hilarious inept reasoning


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 19, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> Well, no. Boys reading a story doesn't make a different on who or what the story is about. Unless you want to say no boy would read a story about or for girls



*This isn't about boys reading a story. It's about a story that's generally meant for boys to read. Huge difference. *



> "I'm going to be a pompous moron and assume that my portrayal of women is the only way they can be portrayed: as gentle and nurturing who giggle about boys and fashion and writing them any other way insults my preconceived notions!"
> 
> Women and men are different, sure. *How does that change that a woman can still be portrayed as a warrior?*



*Where did I ever say they can't? I even made a point to list women that are warriors. *



> Coming from one who listed 'giggling about boys and their looks' as 'positive' feminine traits?
> Spade is a spade.



*Interest in men is feminine, interest in women is masculine. What's so wrong with that? Don't try and change the subject, you called me a sexist for stating a fact which is pretty retarded. *


> Except...she's not a good representation of women. At all. She's bitchy, and , lovesick utterly dependent on a man.
> Inform me: what makes Clare or Helen less of a 'woman' than most anyone in OP? Unless you're going to argue tough, competent and independent women don't exist.
> 
> Oh noes, their gender doesn't define them, what a TRAGEDY.



*So someone who's bitchy and lovesick can't be a good representation of a woman? Lots of women are bitchy and lovesick in the real world, it doesn't necessarily have to be one that people would say is a good role model. Claire isn't less of a woman than Nami, Hancock or Robin but her being a woman is pretty much unimportant to the story (so far at least) and that's what counts in this discussion. *



> Listing a bad character as a positive representation works against your point, I'm afraid. And Diana is hardly that 'womanly' most often. Her costume is simply blatant fanservice. Most times, she's unconcerned with most 'feminine' pursuits.



*Again, whether or not you think she's a bad character does not change the fact that she is a badass female warrior who is very clearly portrayed as a woman in all respects. The differences between men and women are actually a huge part of her story so she's the perfect example. *



> "I make up qualifiers as to what makes positive female characters because I DEFINE WHAT MAKES A WOMAN, DAMMIT!"



*You realize you doing this makes you seem even less mature, right? People generally only react like you are when they know they're fighting a losing battle. *



> How would Gon change if he was a girl? Or Luffy? Or Naruto? Sorry, how tertiary characters react to them has no bearing on it.
> 
> If Naruto was a girl, he'd act the exact same way. Luffy would still be happy, upbeat and set on finding One Piece. Gon would act literally no different. They simply happen to be men.
> 
> ...



*They'd all change their behaviors somewhat, because men and women are wired differently. The exact way they'd change and to what degree depends on a variety of factors of course, but the fact that they would change shouldn't really be up for debate. And of it matters how other characters react to a main characters gender, that's actually a huge part of the story. 

Why would I ever tell a female soldier that? A soldier is a soldier, whether they are male or female does not change that. * 



> I meant the central character of it. And the funny thing is, you could easily redo them as women with minor tweaking. You could keep Sanji's desire to be a chef and take out his flirtatiousness  and have mostly the same person.
> 
> You could also make Robin a guy and alter more or less nothing about the character



*Sanji's flirtatiousness is an enormous part of his character. You can't just take that out. It's because he loves women so much that him being on Ivankov's island for two years was so traumatizing for him and that in turn effected Fishman Island's plot.  

It wouldn't be as drastic as other characters, but you'd definitely change a lot about Robin. Her grabbing Franky's balls would be looked at in a completely different light, for example. there's also the fact that she is portrayed to be fairly feminine. Her being a female isn't unimportant to the story. *


> You seem to have it into your head you define what makes a woman a woman and any deviation from that isn't a real women.
> It's hilarious inept reasoning



*Notice how I never specifically said what makes a woman a real woman, there are too many factors and variables to name. 

In the end, your idea that men and women are the exact same except for their bodies is a foolish one and is obviously what you're entire argument rests on. You are trying to paint me as a sexist, implying I don't think women can be real soldiers and flat out calling me a sexist. *


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## Matta Clatta (Feb 19, 2012)

A lot of the One Piece characters rely on their quirky appearance so you don't think you need to know their personality. Quite a few of the women can be summed up in one or two words. Aside from being strong and fighting they really have no depth or discernible character traits outside of their "gimmick".

Claymore is like a deconstruction of the female heroine. You see a lot of women who have lost their humanity but still managed to retain it in different way. Saying they need to have stereotypical female traits to be considered a positive portrayal is ridiculous.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 19, 2012)

Matta Clatta said:


> A lot of the One Piece characters rely on their quirky appearance so you don't think you need to know their personality. Quite a few of the women can be summed up in one or two words. Aside from being strong and fighting they really have no depth or discernible character traits outside of their "gimmick".
> 
> Claymore is like a deconstruction of the female heroine. You see a lot of women who have lost their humanity but still managed to retain it in different way. Saying they need to have stereotypical female traits to be considered a positive portrayal is ridiculous.



*The only women in OP that can be completely summed up in one or two words are fodders. 

The fact that they are women needs to emphasized for it to be one of the best portrayal of women. Claymores portrays women positive regardless but that's entirely different from being the best portrayal of women in shonen. *


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## Kunoichiwa (Feb 19, 2012)

I think OP has the best portray of women out of the big three, but I wouldn't say OP is the Currently-Active Shonen Manga Series with the best portray of women.


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## Lightysnake (Feb 19, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *This isn't about boys reading a story. It's about a story that's generally meant for boys to read. Huge difference. *



Mmhmm. So Shonen can't have stories about women because it's for boys. 



> *Where did I ever say they can't? I even made a point to list women that are warriors. *



Like Boa "My life revolves aorund a man" Hancock.
So women can be warriors: As long as they don't jump out the stereotypes you define




> *Interest in men is feminine, interest in women is masculine. What's so wrong with that? Don't try and change the subject, you called me a sexist for stating a fact which is pretty retarded. *



So lesbians can't be feminine? Asexuals can't? People uninterested in dating can't be feminine?
Yeah, you're a sexist bore.




> *So someone who's bitchy and lovesick can't be a good representation of a woman?*


*

Yeah, probably not a great representation of women.
Here's a thought: A woman whose entire character revolves around her relation to a guy?




			Lots of women are bitchy and lovesick in the real world, it doesn't necessarily have to be one that people would say is a good role model. Claire isn't less of a woman than Nami, Hancock or Robin but her being a woman is pretty much unimportant to the story (so far at least) and that's what counts in this discussion.
		
Click to expand...

*
Clare is 'less' of a woman than them because she doesn't flash her tits, cry over men and might actually be GAY! 
Save us from the lesbians, Pimp of Pimps! They're masculine!




> *Again, whether or not you think she's a bad character does not change the fact that she is a badass female warrior who is very clearly portrayed as a woman in all respects. The differences between men and women are actually a huge part of her story so she's the perfect example. *



She is not by your criteria. At all. Most of the Amazons aren't.
Again, by your criteria.




> *You realize you doing this makes you seem even less mature, right? People generally only react like you are when they know they're fighting a losing battle. *



"I'll now declare I'[m a winner to make myself feel better because I can't bear to think outside the narrow bounds of my little mind."





> *They'd all change their behaviors somewhat, *


*

Such as?




			because men and women are wired differently. The exact way they'd change and to what degree depends on a variety of factors of course, but the fact that they would change shouldn't really be up for debate. And of it matters how other characters react to a main characters gender, that's actually a huge part of the story.
		
Click to expand...


So Gon would be less hyperactive and adventurous if he was a girl? Luffy would be as well?




			Why would I ever tell a female soldier that? A soldier is a soldier, whether they are male or female does not change that.
		
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*
No, go on. Go tell a tough female soldier she's less of a woman.
That's what you've been saying this entire thread




> *Sanji's flirtatiousness is an enormous part of his character.[ You can't just take that out. It's because he loves women so much that him being on Ivankov's island for two years was so traumatizing for him and that in turn effected Fishman Island's plot.  *


*

So, again, you have to reach over 600 chapters in before you find anything that'd be affected




			It wouldn't be as drastic as other characters, but you'd definitely change a lot about Robin. Her grabbing Franky's balls would be looked at in a completely different light, for example.
		
Click to expand...


NO! NOT TEH GAY! Can't have that!
and again, how many chapters do you have to reach in before you get to something that could change?




			there's also the fact that she is portrayed to be fairly feminine. Her being a female isn't unimportant to the story.
		
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*
So the way she's drawn means she's more feminine and this is important to the story, dammit! It's not for fanservice, it's PLOT!



> *Notice how I never specifically said what makes a woman a real woman, there are too many factors and variables to name. *


*

Despite how you've been trying to define it this whole thread. 




			In the end, your idea that men and women are the exact same except for their bodies is a foolish one and is obviously what you're entire argument rests on.
		
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Now, someone could see I was saying your qualifiers are stupid and completely nonsensical. 




			You are trying to paint me as a sexist, implying I don't think women can be real soldiers and flat out calling me a sexist.
		
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*
Someone who lists 'must giggle about boys and fashion' as traits women must have before they can be 'portrayed as women,' yeah safe bet.


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## Kunoichiwa (Feb 19, 2012)

Is Pimp of Pimps entire argument that a woman isn't being portrayed as a woman if she doesn't follow female gender stereotypes?


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 19, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> Mmhmm. So Shonen can't have stories about women because it's for boys.



*Of course it can, Claymore is the perfect example. But a story about women is different than a story for women. *



> Like Boa "My life revolves aorund a man" Hancock.
> So women can be warriors: As long as they don't jump out the stereotypes you define



*But I haven't defined any stereotypes. *



> So lesbians can't be feminine? Asexuals can't? People uninterested in dating can't be feminine?
> Yeah, you're a sexist bore.



*If these women have other qualities that are feminine then yeah they can be feminine, but a woman not liking men is not feminine. There's a reason lesbians are often seen as being manly. There's nothing sexist about me pointing this out. *



> Yeah, probably not a great representation of women.
> Here's a thought: A woman whose *entire character* revolves around her relation to a guy?



*Again, whether or not it's a great representation of women is irrelevant. It's the fact that her being a women is itself extremely important to the story that matters. *



> Clare is 'less' of a woman than them because she doesn't flash her tits, cry over men and might actually be GAY!
> Save us from the lesbians, Pimp of Pimps! They're masculine!


*
Huh? I specifically said she wasn't less of a woman than the people you listed? Are you incapable of reading? * 


> She is not by your criteria. At all. Most of the Amazons aren't.
> Again, by your criteria.



*But I haven't listed any criteria to being a woman. *



> "I'll now declare I'[m a winner to make myself feel better because I can't bear to think outside the narrow bounds of my little mind."



*This is what I'm talking about. Only the weak minded resort to this. *



> Such as?



*Why are you asking this when I just said there are too many factors and variables to name them all for sure? *



> So Gon would be less hyperactive and adventurous if he was a girl? Luffy would be as well?



*No, but they'd be different in other ways. Some more subtle than others. *



> No, go on. Go tell a tough female soldier she's less of a woman.
> That's what you've been saying this entire thread



*That's not what I''m saying at all. Nowhere did I ever say a woman cannot be strong an independent. that's just what you want me to say because it makes you sound better. A soldier is a soldier regardless of gender, I have the same respect towards female soldiers as I do male. *



> So, again, you have to reach over 600 chapters in before you find anything that'd be affected



*Does it matter? I made a point to mention 'so far' in a lot of my posts about Claymore for a reason. *



> NO! NOT TEH GAY! Can't have that!
> and again, how many chapters do you have to reach in before you get to something that could change?



*See above. *



> So the way she's drawn means she's more feminine and this is important to the story, dammit! It's not for fanservice, it's PLOT!



*Well, yeah. Being drawn to look more like a woman and wear clothes meant for women does indeed make her more feminine. That's just a part of it though. she does not have the mannerisms of a man. Her telling Luffy was he was doing is vulgar is the perfect example, it's something a woman is much likelier to say than a man.  *




> Now, someone could see I was saying your qualifiers are stupid and completely nonsensical.



*What qualifiers? I only ever said men and women are different both mentally and physically. That is a fact.*



> Someone who lists 'must giggle about boys and fashion' as traits women must have before they can be 'portrayed as women,' yeah safe bet.



*Except I never said that. You are again putting words in my mouth. *


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Feb 19, 2012)

Blinky said:


> Shounen tend not to worry too much about gender roles since there are demographics devoted to women (shoujo and erm... *the women one that I can't remember*)
> 
> If you're a fan of shounen you can accept the fact that it has a male slant without it making you a flaming mysoginist so chill.



Josei manga.


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## Matta Clatta (Feb 19, 2012)

Kunoichiwa said:


> Is Pimp of Pimps entire argument that a woman isn't being portrayed as a woman if she doesn't follow female gender stereotypes?



Basically that's what it comes down to imo, because that's the only way you can identify them as women for some reason.


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## Kunoichiwa (Feb 19, 2012)

At least some of the claymore women are feminine. I just don't see why they don't qualify as positive portrays of women.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 19, 2012)

Kunoichiwa said:


> Is Pimp of Pimps entire argument that a woman isn't being portrayed as a woman if she doesn't follow female gender stereotypes?



*

I'm saying that if a character being a woman isn't important to the plot of a story (said character does not need to conform to stereotypes of the female gender for this to be the case) then it can't be one of the best portrayal of women. **Doesn't mean they aren't good characters or that's it not a positive portrayal of women (because it is), just that they aren't the best portrayal of women because the fact that they are women is barely even important. *


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## Kunoichiwa (Feb 19, 2012)

Why does the fact that she is a women have to be a plot point?

Believe it or not the gender of a character is rarely a huge plot point.

In fact, if an author goes out of his way to say "Yes this character is strong... *and a woman.*" it makes me feel the character is less of a positive portrayal merely because the author makes it sound like this is such a rare thing. If a character is strong and feminine the fact that she is a woman does not need to be a huge plot point.


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## EpicBroFist (Feb 19, 2012)

Kunoichiwa said:


> Is Pimp of Pimps entire argument that a woman isn't being portrayed as a woman if she doesn't follow female gender stereotypes?



I believe his argument is saying that the story wouldn't change that much in Claymore if you changed the gender of the characters which constitutes a not good portrayal of women. 

still sounds stupid to me because good portrayal of a character to me is when that character gets development in the story and is important to the plot which Claymore does on both regards concerning the women.

Edit: to late


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 19, 2012)

Kunoichiwa said:


> Why does the fact that she is a women have to be a plot point?
> 
> Believe it or not the gender of a character is rarely a huge plot point.


*
It doesn't have to be a plot point, huge or small. Claymore is a good story without focusing on the fact that the main characters are woman. 

I'm saying it's not the best portrayal of women because frankly it's not supposed to be. For it to be the best portrayal of women it should obviously focus somewhat on them actually being women, which is mostly does not. This doesn't make Claymore any worse, if anything it makes it better imo in a lot of ways, but that does mean it can't be the best portrayal of women.

Remember this thread isn't about which series women are portrayed the best, it's about which series has the best portrayal of women. Which are imo different things. 
*


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## Stilzkin (Feb 19, 2012)

Kunoichiwa said:


> Why does the fact that she is a women have to be a plot point?
> 
> Believe it or not the gender of a character is rarely a huge plot point.



Don't think it has to be a plot point, it simply has to matter to who the character is.




> still sounds stupid to me because good portrayal of a character to me is when that character gets development in the story and is important to the plot which Claymore does on both regards concerning the women.




Yes, but is good "portrayal of a character" the same thing as a good portrayal of a woman? I put quotes around portrayal of a character because what you seem mean is simply a good character. Is a character that is indistinguishable in sex but has depth a good representation of women?


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## Kunoichiwa (Feb 19, 2012)

Why, Pimp of Pimps, does so a story need to focus on them being women for it to be a positive portrayal?

They're all women, some of them are feminine, and they are all strong warriors. Just because the story doesn't remind you of gender all the time does not mean it's not supposed to be a positive portrayal of women


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## Stilzkin (Feb 19, 2012)

Kunoichiwa said:


> Why, Pimp of Pimps, does so a story need to focus on them being women for it to be a positive portrayal?



Think its because this is about how women are portrayed.

If aspects of a women are not being adressed how is it an example of how women are being portrayed?

Let me try to explain myself better:

Imagine a story where a woman is the strongest in the world.

The story can be considered to be doing a good job in portraying the fact that women can be strong. The story though is lacking in its portrayal of many other aspects which define what a women is. A woman is not just strong. There are many other aspects that it is failing to show which would make for a better portrayal of a woman.

Basically this is not just about showing that women can be equal to men, this is about what women are.



Thats what I'm understanding anyway.


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## Lightysnake (Feb 19, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *Of course it can, Claymore is the perfect example. But a story about women is different than a story for women. *



The target audience being x doesn't make Claymore any less than a woman's story internally.



> *But I haven't defined any stereotypes. *


"Women should be girly and feminine! they should like boys and fashion to be thought of as women!"



> *If these women have other qualities that are feminine then yeah they can be feminine, but a woman not liking men is not feminine. There's a reason lesbians are often seen as being manly. There's nothing sexist about me pointing this out. *



So you've never heard of lipstick lesbians I see. And liking girls is a mark against lesbians being feminine?



> *Again, whether or not it's a great representation of women is irrelevant. It's the fact that her being a women is itself extremely important to the story that matters. *



It is not. Because Hancock herself is almost *irrelevant* in the grand scheme of things.
FYI, the Claymores being female is also 'majorly important' because only women could manage the Yoma part of them without Awakening as a result. In that, them being female is vitally important to the plot. accept your own standards



> *
> Huh? I specifically said she wasn't less of a woman than the people you listed? Are you incapable of reading? *



So Clare isn't any less a woman, but Claymore doesn't portray them as women...
Logic does not compute.



> *But I haven't listed any criteria to being a woman. *





> Not being able to give birth, most don't care about their appearance, have literally no interest in men and much more.



Sure you haven't, skippy.



> *This is what I'm talking about. Only the weak minded resort to this. *



Sure they do, boyo.




> *Why are you asking this when I just said there are too many factors and variables to name them all for sure? *





> Not being able to give birth, most don't care about their appearance, have literally no interest in men and much more.



In essence, you haven't defined a thing and you expect to be taken seriously.



> *No, but they'd be different in other ways. Some more subtle than others. *



Tell us these 'subtle ways' then. It sounds like you're just waffling around because you know how full of it your argument is.




> *That's not what I''m saying at all. Nowhere did I ever say a woman cannot be strong an independent. that's just what you want me to say because it makes you sound better. A soldier is a soldier regardless of gender, I have the same respect towards female soldiers as I do male. *



Sure you do. They're just not like women, right? If a female soldier is tough, likes girls, cuts her hair short and has no interest in kids or fashion, by your standards, she's not as much a girl as a 'girly' blond who likes wearing dresses and can't wait to get married




> *Does it matter? I made a point to mention 'so far' in a lot of my posts about Claymore for a reason. *



Highlighting your complete lack of knowledge helps




> *See above. *
> 
> *Well, yeah. Being drawn to look more like a woman and wear clothes meant for women does indeed make her more feminine. That's just a part of it though. she does not have the mannerisms of a man. Her telling Luffy was he was doing is vulgar is the perfect example, it's something a woman is much likelier to say than a man.  *



The 'mannerisms' of a man now?
and men in manga never comment on someone's attitudes being 'vulgar?' Luffy is 'vulgar' by any standard of etiquette (but only prancing girly men focus on that, I'm sure you'll say). Amazed you can tell her 'mannerisms' from still panels, too. Her main mannerism is pointing at people and throwing her head back. 
And FYI, a lot of Claymores are drawn to look like women as well. God forbid most not be barbie dolls.





> *What qualifiers? I only ever said men and women are different both mentally and physically. That is a fact.*



I already posted this above



> *Except I never said that. You are again putting words in my mouth. *


[/Quote]


> Not being able to give birth, most don't care about their appearance, have literally no interest in men and much more.






KazeYama said:


> Here you are contradicting yourself. You say that all that needs for it to be a women's story is for there to be women characters.



No I didn't.



> There are plenty of anime/manga out there that have a large cast of female characters but they are sexually exploited to a large degree. I wouldn't exactly call Freezing or Ikkitousen very good portrayals of women despite the fact that the central focus is on female characters.



Well, yes. The thing is, Freezing (I haven't read/seen Ikki Tousen) are still 'guy's stories.' Kazuya is the main character and the one who the story (ostensibly) revolves around. Freezing is a pretty damn sexist series regardless...a 'woman's story' means it's ABOUT the women themselves: which Claymore certainly is.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 19, 2012)

Kunoichiwa said:


> *Why, Pimp of Pimps, does so a story need to focus on them being women for it to be a positive portrayal?*
> 
> They're all women, some of them are feminine, and they are all strong warriors. Just because the story doesn't remind you of gender all the time does not mean it's not supposed to be a positive portrayal of women



*I never ever said that. Not once. In fact, I made sure to mention that Claymore is a positive portrayal of women. I'm only saying that to be the best portrayal of women the story has to actually focus on them being women in one way or another because there are many sides to being a woman (or a man).*


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## hehey (Feb 19, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps, being the best is a comparison, name a current shonen manga with a better portrayal of women, if you cant then the Claymore is the best....


Lightysnake said:


> The target audience being x doesn't make Claymore any less than a woman's story internally.
> 
> Well, yes. The thing is, Freezing (I haven't read/seen Ikki Tousen) are still 'guy's stories.' Kazuya is the main character and the one who the story (ostensibly) revolves around. Freezing is a pretty damn sexist series regardless...a 'woman's story' means it's ABOUT the women themselves: which Claymore certainly is.


Come on now you guys are arguing about definitions?

One of you think a "woman's story" = "story about women", and the other thinks "Woman's story" = "Story for women".

this is a silly thing to argue about, either just agree to disagree or get in contact with someone who majored in English to decide this but seriously its a dumb argument to have.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 19, 2012)

hehey said:


> Come on now you guys are arguing about definitions?
> 
> One of you think a "woman's story" = "story about women", and the other thinks "Woman's story" = "Story for women".
> 
> this is a silly thing to argue about, either just agree to disagree or get in contact with someone who majored in English to decide this but seriously its a dumb argument to have.




*Honestly that's not even the main issue for me here, I already pointed out the issue of semantics before. It's the fact that Lightysnake thinks I'm a sexist because I'm saying men and women are different that's annoying. *


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## EpicBroFist (Feb 19, 2012)

Stilzkin said:


> Yes, but is good "portrayal of a character" the same thing as a good portrayal of a woman? I put quotes around portrayal of a character because what you seem mean is simply a good character. Is a character that is indistinguishable in sex but has depth a good representation of women?



You have a point but then there would be a problem with pretty much all female and male characters. to give an example most female characters in One Piece could change their gender and the plot wouldn't be changed except for characters like Tashigi and Kuina whose gender effects their role in the story, but the only reason their gender effects their role is because of the female stereotype that women are weaker than men and their characters are trying to overcome that stereotype, so that asks the question... is a good female portrayal only good with female stereotypes. 

Also the other problem is that the stories are fiction in there own regard so in stories like Claymore women aren't burdened by the stereotypes that might linger in real life. So what would constitute them being strong "women" if there is no real life stereotype in their world that they have to defeat over. 

If we look at it in the way that a womens portrayal is not just based on their achievements, development, and plot importance but also if they act in a more stereotypical female way then manga like naruto would be doing a better job then Claymore in female portrayal, even though many have resorted in calling Kishi a sexist in his portrayal of women.     

This is why I see a well portrayal of a women in the plot importance and development rather then the way they act, those are my thoughts on it at least


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## Lightysnake (Feb 19, 2012)

hehey said:


> Pimp of Pimps, being the best is a comparison, name a current shonen manga with a better portrayal of women, if you cant then the Claymore is the best....
> 
> Come on now you guys are arguing about definitions?
> 
> ...


*Raises hand*


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## Fran (Feb 19, 2012)

ya'll posting in a demondragonj thread


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## Stilzkin (Feb 19, 2012)

EpicBroFist said:


> You have a point but then there would be a problem with pretty much all female and male characters. to give an example most female characters in One Piece could change their gender and the plot wouldn't be changed except for characters like Tashigi and Kuina whose gender effects their role in the story, but the only reason their gender effects their role is because of the female stereotype that women are weaker than men and their characters are trying to overcome that stereotype, so that asks the question... is a good female portrayal only good with female stereotypes.



No, you seem to have taken it as meaning that they have to face stereotypes.

They simply have to be written as women. I guess one way to write women would be to use stereotypes. Stereotypes after all can contain truths about what they typing. It would not seem to be right to say stereotypes is all this is about.


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## EpicBroFist (Feb 19, 2012)

Stilzkin said:


> No, you seem to have taken it as meaning that they have to face stereotypes.
> 
> They simply have to be written as women. I guess one way to write women would be to use stereotypes. Stereotypes after all can contain truths about what they typing. It would not seem to be right to say stereotypes is all this is about.



I went on to talk about womanly behavior in the later paragraphs. Anyway what constitutes womanly behavior when we have a whole plethora of behaviors for women, ranging from Tom boys to Romantics. In the manga the Clayomores behavior is constantly referenced to have been affected by their upbringing, and even through all of that there are still sentiments of motherhood through several characters. Thats why I believe that the characters are properly portrayed as strong women with the development and plot significance they have in the story.


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## Matta Clatta (Feb 19, 2012)

A stereotype of gender roles is needed for you to infer that a female character is being written as a woman?
I mean you can write a man acting as a woman and you'll be relying on gender role stereotypes to do it but that doesn't mean hes acting as a woman, that means hes acting like an exaggerated version of a woman. 

Its why I fail to see how any of the Claymore's not acting like stereotypical women is detrimental to their status as good female characters.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 19, 2012)

EpicBroFist said:


> I went on to talk about womanly behavior in the later paragraphs. Anyway what constitutes womanly behavior when we have a whole plethora of behaviors for women, ranging from Tom boys to Romantics. In the manga the Clayomores behavior is constantly referenced to have been affected by their upbringing, and even through all of that there are still sentiments of motherhood through several characters. Thats why I believe that the characters are properly portrayed as strong women with the development and plot significance they have in the story.



*It's not just about womanly behavior though, it's just about emphasizing womanhood one way or another. For example, we can have a female character that's the exact opposite of what would consider womanly but as long as the story does emphasize womanhood one way or another I feel it can still be an excellent portrayal of women. It's not about making the characters girly or whatever, it's about integrating womanhood in the story somehow and to do that extremely well requires a compare and contrast between men and women as well as getting in the details because a gender cannot be defined so easily. Of course, the same applies with men and manhood. 

With Claymore, while womanhood is sometimes referenced as you pointed out, I don't feel womanhood is a particularly important part of the story. The story simply does not need to get into the nitty gritty of womanhood. That's not a bad thing of course, and it's still a positive portrayal of women, but I feel the way the story has been set up so far means it's not meant to potray the female gender so much as the main characters just happen to be female.

Of course, you can consider it the best portrayal of women in the sense that all the main characters happen to be women and I wouldn't disagree.

*


Matta Clatta said:


> Its why I fail to see how any of the Claymore's not acting like  stereotypical women is detrimental to their status as good female  characters.



*You need to read more carefully. No one has ever said the main characters of Claymore are not good female characters. *


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## EpicBroFist (Feb 19, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps I'm curious, what is your answer to the question asked by the OP


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 19, 2012)

*I'm still undecided. One Piece, HunterxHunter, FMA, Fairy Tail, Toriko (though there are only like 3 women so maybe not lol) and Claymore all portray women in a positive light imo. By which I mean in all these series there are capable women that aren't automatically inferior to men or anything like that. When it comes to Claymore I think it's just a case of good characters that happen to be women as opposed to the characters meant to portray females themselves well. whereas with Naruto and Bleach, Naruto has horrible portrayal of women despite Kishi's best efforts and in Beach all the women are extremely sexualized. So at this point I don't really think there is a best. 

Of course, if one means to say that Claymore portrays women best in the sense that the main characters are all women I'd have to agree with that. *


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## KazeYama (Feb 19, 2012)

Matta Clatta said:


> A stereotype of gender roles is needed for you to infer that a female character is being written as a woman?
> I mean you can write a man acting as a woman and you'll be relying on gender role stereotypes to do it but that doesn't mean hes acting as a woman, that means hes acting like an exaggerated version of a woman.
> 
> Its why I fail to see how any of the Claymore's not acting like stereotypical women is detrimental to their status as good female characters.



Gender is on a continuum from hyper masculine to hyper feminine. Hyper feminine female characters tend to appear weak or overly sexualized and tend not to be good representations. Of course even if a character is female giving them overly masculine traits you would say that it is just portraying a female externally while they are male in speech/actions etc. and should not be considered a good example of women either. 

How masculine is too masculine and how feminine is too feminine will always be dependent on personal opinion and a person's own views about gender. The issue with Claymore is that you can make a sound argument either way that the females are either good for not being overtly feminine or that they lack enough feminine quality to be a good representation of females. 

This thread was going to create argument either way because the ideal of what a women/man should be will be slightly different for each person.


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## EpicBroFist (Feb 19, 2012)

I can understand where you're coming from PoP, but I have one qualm with that list.... wouldn't Fairy tail be in the same boat as Bleach


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 19, 2012)

EpicBroFist said:


> I can understand where you're coming from PoP, but I have one qualm with that list.... wouldn't Fairy tail be in the same boat as Bleach



*Not really because while women in Fairy Tail are probably even more sexualized they are all still portrayed as extremely capable women. 

Also, Mashima draws girls better than Kubo.  *


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## EpicBroFist (Feb 19, 2012)

Indeed


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 20, 2012)

Claymore has the best potrayal of women from any shonen I read. But some aspects of femininity are not as represented in Claymore than in other stories (or even in the real world) because of who the Claymores are. There are stories with a more diverse cast of women where women do have boyfriends, kids,etc in addition to women who are warriors and have no interest in that. But the best is about comparisons and Claymore is the best from the shonen I know despite focusing on mostly women warriors instead of a more diverse cast of characters who happen to be women, it is still good at portraying women.


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## Aldric (Feb 20, 2012)

Baki the grappler

It has the most touching portrayal of motherly love I've ever seen


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Feb 20, 2012)

u                     mad


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 20, 2012)

Fran said:


> ya'll posting in a demondragonj thread



Why do you need to emphasize that fact? I am certain that everyone already knows that, as my post is the first post in the tread.

On the other hand, I am very pleased that a thread that I started has become a thread of such intense debate; it is not often that that happens.


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## Patrick (Feb 20, 2012)

Portrayal of women isn't about how strong they are or how many of them there are, but how they behave. Do they have personallities like most men in shounen, but still have womanly traits?

I mean it's important to have a strong and unique personality, but a guy with boobs smacked on him isn't working for me either.

Erza from Fairy Tail and Robin from One Piece are women that are portrayed really well IMO. Strong and unique personalities, interesting abilities and still don't feel like guys with boobs. These characters are often seen as most popular (and best looking) female in their respective manga.

One Piece and Fairy Tail have therefor a very good (well atleast for shounen) portrayal of women.


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## Grimm6Jack (Feb 20, 2012)

Surely not Bleach nor Naruto ... Top Tiers are all males and they are also the ones (majority) with the greatest characther development.

Only Rukia and Orihime have any relevance so far ... Yeah, Hiyori and Hinamori are unkillable but they don't have any relevance in he plot, well, they have but it's very small. LoL The strongest hyped women on this manga had her ass handed to a guy like Hitsugay and was backstabbed by Aizen .

I don't think that I even need to mention Naruto do I? . Well, at least it has more woman with plot relevance than Bleach, even though the power tiers are basically the same as Bleach, top tiers ALL being males and even among the other tiers women are not that high as well.

I think Fairy Tail portrays it's women pretty well IMO. One Piece is not so bad either, but not as good as Fairy Tail. For Shounen, I have to say that they portray their women pretty good.


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## Grimm6Jack (Feb 20, 2012)

Kunoichiwa said:


> *I believe that, while neither gender is superior to another, the genders are not the same*.



If you are talking about on-topic (fictional Shounen female and male characthers) then I agree with you.

But in Real Life, when it comes to humans, the males are above females because of the simple fact of the males having physically better atributes. I'm not being sexist, this is simply the truth, both have the same limits in everything, except their physical atributes, that's whay males are much better suited for construction site jobs or mine jobs, etc etc, overall they are the superior being, however I don't think men can live without women or women without men. Howerver in battle, the average woman is ALWAYS MUCH WEAKER than the average man.

And the same is basically applied to most Shounen except some like Claymore (main cast being females). Women are always weaker than mean, that rule will most likely never change, and therefore women are always less portrayed in Shounen than men, because they are powerless and in Shounen (most of them), power is basically everything, however, you can at least add some women to be close to the strongest men, not make 99% of them look like fodder or just use them for "fanservice" and make most of them irrelevant to the the actual plot/manga.


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## Emerald Chaos (Feb 22, 2012)

What? No one responded to Gintama?

I refuse to let this thread die until someone acknowledges Gintama.

IMO it easily has a better female cast than, say, One Piece


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 22, 2012)

*Sorry, never read Gintama. What's so good about it's females? *


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## kazuri (Feb 22, 2012)

Manga: meant to portray reality.

Men are shown just as badly, constantly shown as perverts, thugs, etc etc etc


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## Byrd (Feb 22, 2012)

Witch Hunters... most of the top-tiers are women


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## Wuzzman (Feb 22, 2012)

Grimm6jack said:


> Surely not Bleach nor Naruto ... Top Tiers are all males and they are also the ones (majority) with the greatest characther development.
> 
> Only Rukia and Orihime have any relevance so far ... Yeah, Hiyori and Hinamori are unkillable but they don't have any relevance in he plot, well, they have but it's very small. LoL The strongest hyped women on this manga had her ass handed to a guy like Hitsugay and was backstabbed by Aizen .
> 
> ...



The one piece top tiers are a sausage fest and before the fat pirate queen, hancock was the strongest chick in OP and she probably can't even beat zoro. 

No the problem with females in the shounen that you mention is that 
1. a great female eventually gets love interest trolled. 
2. made into cheerleaders
3. only fanservice
4. gets trolled.
5. has obvious plot armor rivaling the main characters.

But the granddaddy is that in the end all your shit shounen is only about pushing one character, luffy, naruto, ichigo, natsu, into the top tiers no matter how illogical it is. Yes in a show where people nuke each other with fireballs, its not too hard to come up with chicks pulling their weight if fighting is the only criteria for useful (which 90% of the time is). 

Considering we divorced ourselves from the very physical reality that on average women are not in the same weight class as men period. But lets be honest Ezra is a cool character but its nastu show, so she gets trolled hard. Beyond being trolled because she is a chick, she is trolled because she isn't natsu, take her out of situations where natsu must get the final hit and ezra is pretty kick ass all around. 

But this is all childish. A female character fight toe to toe with guys 3 times her size is male fantasy.


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## Emerald Chaos (Feb 22, 2012)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *Sorry, never read Gintama. What's so good about it's females? *



OK, well, to start off with, its female cast is large and diverse (which makes it hard to pin down a specific reason as to why the female cast is good). Yet it never really falls back on the major cliche female roles. 
Often the female characters are headstrong, yet they doesn't sacrifice their femininity for the strength they have and vice-verse, when there's a particularly feminine character, it almost never means that they'll be devoid of strength or competence. On top of that, even the most raunchy characters are treated with a level of respect and the level of "fanservice" is kept reasonable.

I'll try to break down some of the female cast (possibly over the course of several posts), and explain, to the best of my ability why I believe that Gintama has a really solid representation of women.

First, there's the lead female, Kagura, who is a young girl who's a member of a race of alien warriors called the Yato clan. She's blunt and tomboyish, assertive and strong, yet the series NEVER forgets that she IS a girl (and I'm not talking about in the dumb "look, she's a girl and she's actually strong" way).

Straight away she's a rarity in Shonen series because, for one, she's arguably more powerful than the main character.

What stands out about her in my eyes is part of her development is involving her "overcoming" her Yato blood. Whilst her father ran away, becoming a mercenary, to escape his fear that it might drive him to kill his own family,  and his brother embraced it and joined heads a faction of a space pirate group (The entire family are badasses by the way).

Kagura herself decided she didn't want any of that and that she'd rather live a more peaceful life. A decidedly more "feminine" route, if you will. But she doesn't come off as any worse a character for it, nor any less competent, deciding to use her strength for more positive goals, such as protecting the people close to her.

(NOTE: The manga never outright STATES that it's because she's a female that she takes the path that she does, leaving it fairly open to interpretation I guess, but I'd say that's a good thing)

Uh, yeah, this has taken me a good while to write, but it's a start. I remember there being a blog or two with some interesting notes on Kagura which if I find I'll post up.

And I'll go into more detail on other characters and the overall female cast (and how they're portrayed in relation to the male cast) later if you're at all interested.


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## Stilzkin (Feb 22, 2012)

Wuzzman said:


> The one piece top tiers are a sausage fest and before the fat pirate queen, hancock was the strongest chick in OP and she probably can't even beat zoro.



Hancock can beat Zoro.

Big Mom was mentioned before Hancock ever appeared, this is by hundreds of chapters.


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## Wuzzman (Feb 23, 2012)

LOlz by what feats? she holds title of Shichibukai but that is about all. her gorgan trick doesn't work on single minded idiots like zoro. Granted she'd beat zoro post time-skip but after? LOLOLOL.


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## Wuzzman (Feb 25, 2012)

*Volume 4 fully translated* that's a chick


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## Stilzkin (Feb 25, 2012)

Wuzzman said:


> LOlz by what feats? she holds title of Shichibukai but that is about all. her gorgan trick doesn't work on single minded idiots like zoro. Granted she'd beat zoro post time-skip but after? LOLOLOL.



By the fact that Sengoku calls her powerful.

By the fact that she can one shot Px's


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## Wuzzman (Feb 26, 2012)

Stilzkin said:


> By the fact that Sengoku calls her powerful.
> 
> By the fact that she can one shot Px's



After time skip strawhats can one shot Px's all day long.


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## Lord Darkwolf (Feb 26, 2012)

Hmm  would Rosario+Vampire count as Shonen ?


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## Basilikos (Feb 26, 2012)

^That series has anything but the best portrayal of women. Unless you just want a good look at panties...


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## Mizura (Feb 26, 2012)

While we're talking about women... I recently noticed an English comic (well, the original is French) called Freaks' Squeele being posted. 

After a few chapters it turns pretty interesting, and the main female character is pretty badass while maintaining her femininity. Check it out if you're looking for an interesting main female character.


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## Kunoichiwa (Feb 26, 2012)

Grimm6jack said:


> If you are talking about on-topic (fictional Shounen female and male characthers) then I agree with you.
> 
> But in Real Life, when it comes to humans, the males are above females because of the simple fact of the males having physically better atributes. I'm not being sexist, this is simply the truth, both have the same limits in everything, except their physical atributes, that's whay males are much better suited for construction site jobs or mine jobs, etc etc, overall they are the superior being, however I don't think men can live without women or women without men. Howerver in battle, the average woman is ALWAYS MUCH WEAKER than the average man.
> 
> And the same is basically applied to most Shounen except some like Claymore (main cast being females). Women are always weaker than mean, that rule will most likely never change, and therefore women are always less portrayed in Shounen than men, because they are *powerless* and in Shounen (most of them), power is basically everything, however, you can at least add some women to be close to the strongest men, not make 99% of them look like fodder or just use them for "fanservice" and make most of them irrelevant to the the actual plot/manga.



You do realize that, in battle, skill is far more important than physical strength alone? A woman trained in hand-to-hand combat is capable of defeating the average man. Physical strength is only that important if neither are skilled. Besides, if you go by physical design men have a weak spot that can give the person they're fighting an easy target.

Women have better social skills,  stronger immune systems, are more flexible and live longer. To say men are superior in every way is to overlook the strengths of women. Besides, you are stereotyping. There are women who are CEOs and men who are homeless bums. The reverse is also true, but that just shows that when it comes to man vs. women the winner can only be determined by a case-by-case basis.

As for your denial of being sexist, you have made it quite clear you are a sexist.


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## Wuzzman (Feb 26, 2012)

Mizura said:


> While we're talking about women... I recently noticed an English comic (well, the original is French) called Freaks' Squeele being posted.
> 
> After a few chapters it turns pretty interesting, and the main female character is pretty badass while maintaining her femininity. Check it out if you're looking for an interesting main female character.



Pretty good A grade shit, like harry potter meets city of heroes.


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## MrCinos (Feb 26, 2012)

*Maoyuu Maou Yuusha - "Kono Watashi no Mono Tonare, Yuusha yo" "Kotowaru!"  *:
Freaks' Squeele

Great example when it comes to the good portrayal of Women. One of the two main characters who happens to be a girl is the most intelligent character so far. And when it comes to fighting there are some very capable females too.

All in all an excellent and well-diversified cast of characters:


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## vanhellsing (Feb 26, 2012)

thx for the example MrCinos its gonna be a good read  , also lol OPtards accept Oda does not win in everything


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## hojou (Feb 26, 2012)

sakura from naruto so far. anyone like to argue against that


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## Supa Swag (Feb 27, 2012)

hojou said:


> sakura from naruto so far. anyone like to argue against that



Nope


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 27, 2012)

That image is hilarious! From where does it originate?


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## PlacidSanity (Feb 28, 2012)

^  Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.

Also like to say again that Broken Blade has done a decent job in some of the serie's portrayal of women.


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