# A3 runs Sannin Gauntlet



## Crofty (Jan 27, 2022)

Location: Naruto vs A3
Distance: 50m 
Knowledge: Manga
Intent: To Kill
Restriction: Edo Tensei

A3 is healed after each battle

Round 1: Base Jiraiya
Round 2: SM Jiraiya
Round 3: Byakugou Tsunade
Round 4: Orochimaru
Round 5: All Sannin at once 

Does he clear?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Bonly (Jan 27, 2022)

He’d beat Base Jiraiya and he’d likely beat Tsunade but he’d lose to Sage Mode Jiraiya and Orochi while not standing a chance against all 3.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Shazam (Jan 27, 2022)

Crofty said:


> Location: Naruto vs A3
> Distance: 50m
> Knowledge: Manga
> Intent: To Kill
> ...



Within Sage Mode Jiraiya will beat A3 as well as the other Sannin like Byakugou Tsunade and Orochimaru.

he could beat base Jiraiya and Base Tsunade though

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Hellblade (Jan 27, 2022)

Crofty said:


> Round 1: Base Jiraiya


A3 stomps.


Crofty said:


> Round 2: SM Jiraiya


A3 stomps.


Crofty said:


> Round 3: Byakugou Tsunade


A3 stomps.


Crofty said:


> Round 4: Orochimaru


A3 stomps.


Crofty said:


> Round 5: All Sannin at once


A3 stomps.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 11 | Kage 2


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## Nali (Jan 27, 2022)

What? Jiraiya, who by the way Is the weakest sannin, stomps.

Reactions: Funny 6 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1 | Lewd 3


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## Crofty (Jan 27, 2022)

Nali said:


> What? Jiraiya, who by the way Is the weakest sannin, stomps.


No need to bully Jiraiya like that

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Nali (Jan 27, 2022)

Crofty said:


> No need to bully Jiraiya like that


I'm just stating facts.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 3 | Lewd 2


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## t0xeus (Jan 27, 2022)

He can beat 2 groups of 3 Sannin at once. One by one? He legit neg diffs.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Informative 1 | Neutral 1


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## Symmetry (Jan 27, 2022)

A3 doesn’t clear because him vs SM Jman is a contentious fight unless you think Dodai >> SM Jman. A3 is fast but he was fighting 1/12 of Naruto, I highly doubt that translates to Naruto’s full speed. Jiraiya vs all 6 paths of Pain whilst down an arm somehow managed to escape all of them with their shared vision, which is one of the best feinting feats in the manga in terms of feinting something within your same tier goes 

Given that I see no reason why SM Jiriaya would be unable to escape A3 and hide in a toad somewhere until frog song is prepped. The issue then would be SM Jiriaya needing to survive till then, which is totally possible, although it’s equally possible A3 kills him before it’s done. Either way, since it’s up in the air I can’t say with certainty he defeats Jman so he doesn’t clear

Reactions: Optimistic 4


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 27, 2022)

So basically A3 runs right through the guantlet. 

Someone who fought a Bijuu to a standstill absolutely destroys them .

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 5 | Kage 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jan 27, 2022)

Only frog song / poison could hurt him
The rest he can literally walk through it and kill whoever attacked him

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Optimistic 3


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## Azula (Jan 27, 2022)

Katsuyu acid, Toad dimension acid and White Snake poison defeats him.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jan 27, 2022)

Loving these acid feats
Couldn’t even melt animal path body

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Nali (Jan 27, 2022)

sage mode naruto managed to defeat him on panel so it's not clear why SG jiraiya shouldn't make it.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jan 27, 2022)

Nali said:


> sage mode naruto managed to defeat him on panel so it's not clear why SG jiraiya shouldn't make it.


6 path mode naruto managed to beat juubi Madara surely means Jiriaya could 
I mean both are called sage mode no?
= abilities definitely regardless of the character 
I mean kid sasuke = Madara they both got sharingan no ?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Lewd 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 27, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> 6 path mode naruto managed to beat juubi Madara surely means Jiriaya could
> I mean both are called sage mode no?
> = abilities definitely regardless of the character
> I mean kid sasuke = Madara they both got sharingan no ?


 You forgot Sasuke using amaterasu = Itachi using it. Same jutsu no .


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## Beyonce (Jan 27, 2022)

Wins first round as its base Jiraiya, loses the rest, but loses especially hard on the last one

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jan 27, 2022)

He beats base Jiraiya and loses to the rest.

Reactions: Like 1 | Lewd 2


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## Symmetry (Jan 27, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> So basically A3 runs right through the guantlet.


Through the gauntlet and into frog song yes

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Symmetry (Jan 27, 2022)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> He beats base Jiraiya and loses to the rest.


Genuinely curious how Tsunade and Oro win this one


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## Symmetry (Jan 27, 2022)

Beyonce said:


> Wins first round as its base Jiraiya, loses the rest, but loses especially hard on the last one


Same as above


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## ARGUS (Jan 27, 2022)

A3 absolutely violates any of the sannin in a 1v1. 
way too strong, cant be damaged by any of their attacks and is much faster than all of them 
the man stalemated the second strongest bijuu in the series with no sealing techniques. just pure combat 
sannin are portrayed around KN4 level at best and even thats being generous 

in a 3v1, id favor the sannin more times than not. mainly since they can buy enough time for jiraiya to prep frog song and take him down 
if frog song cant be prepped, then its GG yet it agian because he will run them down 1 by 1

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## Beyonce (Jan 27, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> Same as above


A3 has nothing to hurt Katsuyu plus Tsunade has techniques that can bypass durability such as reverse shosen, chakra scalpel, or ranshinso

Aside from that I see no reason how he’s able to outlast Tsunade. Yes he has great durability but Tsunade has great regeneration and frankly she hits much harder than he does. I wouldn’t put it past Tsunade to replicate Naruto’s feat of using raikage’s own attack against him once she realizes she can’t one hit KO him. Tsunade’s used other character’s own attacks against them before like Madara’s sword.

His speed his good but if Dodai and fodders can react I’m confident Tsunade can as well and have Katsuyu damage soak attacks for her if need be.

Orochimaru solos even easier with poison seeing as he has no poison resistance.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Symmetry (Jan 27, 2022)

Beyonce said:


> A3 has nothing to hurt Katsuyu


He can outlast the summon timer tho



Beyonce said:


> ranshinso


I highly doubt this would work when A3 cloaks himself in a much larger quantity of lightning constantly



Beyonce said:


> reverse shosen, chakra scalpel


Fair enough



Beyonce said:


> Orochimaru solos even easier with poison seeing as he has no poison resistance


The only poison he has that doesn't involve piercing attacks only paralyzes, it doesn't kill

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jan 27, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> He can outlast the summon timer tho
> 
> 
> I highly doubt this would work when A3 cloaks himself in a much larger quantity of lightning constantly
> ...


Temari cut him open when his shroud was off. If Orochimaru paralyzes him he can do the same.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Beyonce (Jan 27, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> He can outlast the summon timer tho


Battle would be over by then. And Katsuyu’s summon timer is insanely long. Refer to it being on the war council’s desk from day time to the next morning when she notified shikaku of Naruto convincing Raikage. And was present when Tsunade wanted to send herself to the front lines.


Orochimaru op said:


> I highly doubt this would work when A3 cloaks himself in a much larger quantity of lightning constantly


It’s not about electricity quantity though. Raikage uses RnY to stimulate and heighten nerve cells to send brain signals and propagate electricity faster. Tsunade’s technique is the opposite in that she deliberately scrambles them. If it was about electricity quantity then every character we see get electrocuted should have their nerve cells scrambled but they don’t. The only thing RnY would do is just send those scrambled signals faster not re-calibrate them.


Orochimaru op said:


> The only poison he has that doesn't involve piercing attacks only paralyzes, it doesn't kill


I wouldn’t put it past orochimaru to find a way to kill an opponent who cannot move at all. Suffocation inside a snake’s stomach maybe?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## MHA massive fan (Jan 27, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> You forgot Sasuke using amaterasu = Itachi using it. Same jutsu no .


But it’s the same technique 
?  
maybe when Madara used kamui in your mind it was different to how Kakashi uses it


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 27, 2022)

Stops at SM Jiraiya. IMO the gauntlet would be better if it went Base J-Man (Base Dimension shenanigans aside) -> Orochimaru -> Byakugou Tsunade -> SM Jiraiya.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 28, 2022)

The sannin literally cannot hurt this guy

The sannin literally cannot react to this guy

The sannin literally cannot take a single hit from this guy

And them outlasting is a laugh out loud joke

This dude legit has the feats to stand still in front of the sannin for 3 days and nights and let them hit him with their hardest hitting attacks as hard as they can until they run out of chakra AND HED STILL WIN 

It could not be more clear this man was on another level than any of these has-beens

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Winner 3 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 28, 2022)

Not gonna see a remotely intelligible argument from the sannin side here btw

As usual its just gonna be an insane helping of dishonest representation

Suggesting things like the Sannin scaling to or above WA SM and KCM Naruto in base stats or that Tsunade hits harder than FRS and similar levels of retardation

Just rating spam yall

All youre good for

Bring it

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5 | Funny 1 | Lewd 6


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## Beyonce (Jan 28, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Not gonna see a remotely intelligible argument from the sannin side here btw
> 
> As usual its just gonna be an insane helping of dishonest representation
> 
> ...


Can we all mass lewd rate this filthy heretic post @Speedyamell @Nali @SakuraLover16 @Lyren @dergeist @Aegon Targaryen @Serene Grace @Orochimaruwantsyourbody

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## Nali (Jan 28, 2022)

Beyonce said:


> Can we all mass lewd rate this filthy heretic post @Speedyamell @Nali @SakuraLover16 @Lyren @dergeist @Aegon Targaryen @Serene Grace @Orochimaruwantsyourbody


Im in girl

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 28, 2022)

Beyonce said:


> Can we all mass lewd rate this filthy heretic post @Speedyamell @Nali @SakuraLover16 @Lyren @dergeist @Aegon Targaryen @Serene Grace @Orochimaruwantsyourbody


Aside from @SakuraLover16 that is the most filthy fucking set of tags I have ever seen in my life 

Edit: and serene, didnt catch him first

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 7 | Friendly 1 | Lewd 3


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## dergeist (Jan 28, 2022)

The wank is surreal, katusuyu covers and suffocates or Tsunade blows him up (she negged a Susano'o and even blew up Mads body which tanked an FRS no diff). Oro unleashed a poison he inhales and dies and let's not even get started on base Jman. Although, SM Jman dies in the crossfire.

Yeah A3 is overwanked af.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Kage 2


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## Speedyamell (Jan 28, 2022)

Beyonce said:


> Can we all mass lewd rate this filthy heretic post @Speedyamell @Nali @SakuraLover16 @Lyren @dergeist @Aegon Targaryen @Serene Grace @Orochimaruwantsyourbody


Who?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Kage 1


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## Speedyamell (Jan 28, 2022)

The only round A3 has a chance of winning is the first one, and even that isn't going to be a walk in the park for him either seeing as A3 was getting held by the likes temari and dodai, meanwhile base jiraiya has feats of negging characters like kisame and konan that are well above that, and forcing itachi to flee and use his MS as well as subduing kn4 without killing intent... Base Jiraiya might even just have better showings than A3... so he would struggle hard even there and lose hard in all the other rounds

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Sufex (Jan 28, 2022)

He clears, round 3 will be high diff due to oros broken regen. But he gets out lasted The rest he steam rolls with nukite , unless jman manages to get off frog song


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## Lyren (Jan 28, 2022)

Wins against Base Jiraiya for sure 
50/50 against SM Jiraiya
Orochimaru high diffs with poison 
Tsunade one shots him since she hits harder than FRS by feats

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jan 28, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> 100% clears or you robbed and inhaled/injected an entire pharmacies worth of drugs
> 
> The sannin literally cannot hurt this guy
> 
> ...


But but frog song


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 28, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Aside from @SakuraLover16 that is the most filthy fucking set of tags I have ever seen in my life
> 
> Edit: and serene, didnt catch him first


That's the entirity of 10 % katsuyu GG camp right there. 
Wouldn't be expecting anything different.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 28, 2022)

We've done this to death and it's not like we haven't had great arguments concerning why we believe the Sannin win. Even his greatest feat of battling Hachibi to a standstill has been replicated by other Kage levelers battling tailed beasts. He has been damaged by wind style jutsu and has received damage from even a palm sized rasengan. The thing that he for certain has over them is his ridiculous stamina and decently hard body. No one denies that however for some reason people think he is invincible and can't be touched. If he was portrayed anywhere like the battle dome believes he is he would have conquered and laid waste to the four other great villages.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## MHA massive fan (Jan 28, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> We've done this to death and it's not like we haven't had great arguments concerning why we believe the Sannin win. Even his greatest feat of battling Hachibi to a standstill has been replicated by other Kage levelers battling tailed beasts. He has been damaged by wind style jutsu and has received damage from even a palm sized rasengan. The thing that he for certain has over them is his ridiculous stamina and decently hard body. No one denies that however for some reason people think he is invincible and can't be touched. If he was portrayed anywhere like the battle dome believes he is he would have conquered and laid waste to the four other great villages.


All we believe is any fire power < FRS CANT HARM him. As naruto said it did nothing more than once 

now A3 couldn’t have conquered shit . Because something as simple as jukken by passes durability 
We only see Sannin can’t beat him outside of frog song because the attacks they have have to by pass his durability and their attacks are shit tier compared to FRS


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 28, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> All we believe is any fire power < FRS CANT HARM him. As naruto said it did nothing more than once
> 
> now A3 couldn’t have conquered shit . Because something as simple as jukken by passes durability
> We only see Sannin can’t beat him outside of frog song because the attacks they have have to by pass his durability and their attacks are shit tier compared to FRS



He was injured by less than FRS though. Temari and 2 wind fodder damaged him and even Naruto's palm sized rasengan injured his skin. Also FRS and Hell Stab are two different attacks that work in two different ways. I have no idea why whenever this is brought up its glazed over of course being attacked by millions of small needles all over and being attacked in a single concentrated point will have different effects and he still sustained damage from FRS it was just did nothing to keep him incapacitated long enough to be sealed. 

It's not like we need a diagram to explain the difference between a rasengan and a chidori. This is honestly no different. Another example being Madara negged Naruto's Cho Odama rasengan (that may have been sage enhanced) but yet his ribcage Susanoo couldnt hold up from being punched by Tsunade those are different attacks as well. Mind you all three of the Sannin slso have ways of bypassing durability all together. 

So it's not something like Hell Stab is stronger than FRS. It's more like Hell Stab is better at piercing than FRS is. Which is why the statement of needing an attack to be stronger than FRS to Injure the raikage doesn't hold water.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 28, 2022)

I mean a funny rating is hardly an argument of refutation nor have I made up or used anything of outside the manga to illustrate my point. This is the reason why I don't post here anymore.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 28, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> He was injured by less than FRS though
> Temari and 2 wind fodder damaged him



That was with his RNY off and they still did no real damage.





SakuraLover16 said:


> and even Naruto's palm sized rasengan injured his skin



Looks like it only cracked his RNY, actually. _Barely_ noticeable, in any case.




SakuraLover16 said:


> Also FRS and Hell Stab are two different attacks that work in two different ways I have no idea why whenever this is brought up its glazed over of course being attacked by millions of small needles all over and being attacked in a single concentrated point will have different effects and he still sustained damage from FRS it was just did nothing to keep him incapacitated long enough to be sealed.
> It's not like we need a diagram to explain the difference between a rasengan and a chidori. This is honestly no different.



Because it's a cheap excuse y'all invent to downplay his durability, and one contradicted by the manga.

A3's *stated weakness*_ is _long range Fuutons like FRS.


The fact _even his own weakness _has such a hard time even troubling him should tell you A3 is a durability monster.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Another example being Madara negged Naruto's Cho Odama rasengan



He near immediately leveled up all the way to *V3 Susano'o* to do it, unlike against Tsunade (where he just used V1).





SakuraLover16 said:


> (that may have been sage enhanced)



Was not. Naruclone was in base.


He hadn't even _entered _SM yet lmao.




SakuraLover16 said:


> So it's not something like Hell Stab is stronger than FRS. It's more like Hell Stab is better at piercing than FRS is.



Nope, it's stronger. Period.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Which is why the statement of needing an attack to be stronger than FRS to Injure the raikage doesn't hold water.



The narrative literally states FRS failed against A3 in spite of being the *perfect kind of attack to hurt him*, and that the spear worked because* it was stronger than the shield*. Sounds like you need to stop making excuses and reread the manga.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Kage 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 28, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I mean a funny rating is hardly an argument of refutation nor have I made up or used anything of outside the manga to illustrate my point. This is the reason why I don't post here anymore.



I also responded to your entire argument, providing scans to prove my points.


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## MHA massive fan (Jan 28, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> He was injured by less than FRS though.


Yet not by FRS so either looking at art details is irrelevant or the cloak simply makes him that much more durable as it was in base that he got injured 


SakuraLover16 said:


> Temari and 2 wind fodder damaged him and even Naruto's palm sized rasengan injured his skin. Also FRS and Hell Stab are two different attacks that work in two different ways. I have no idea why whenever this is brought up its glazed over of course being attacked by millions of small needles all over and being attacked in a single concentrated point will have different effects and he still sustained damage from FRS it was just did nothing to keep him incapacitated long enough to be sealed.


See above 


SakuraLover16 said:


> It's not like we need a diagram to explain the difference between a rasengan and a chidori. This is honestly no different. Another example being Madara negged Naruto's Cho Odama rasengan (that may have been sage enhanced) but yet his ribcage Susanoo couldnt hold up from being punched by Tsunade those are different attacks as well. Mind you all three of the Sannin slso have ways of bypassing durability all together.


Tsunade never broke his rib cage the combined attack of A4 and Tsunade did 


SakuraLover16 said:


> So it's not something like Hell Stab is stronger than FRS. It's more like Hell Stab is better at piercing than FRS is. Which is why the statement of needing an attack to be stronger than FRS to Injure the raikage doesn't hold water.


Hell stab is stronger than FRs. FRS DID NOTHING
Hell stab beat A3 twice

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 28, 2022)

But if a funny react is all it takes you to stop posting...that's your problem, not mine.


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## Phenomenon (Jan 28, 2022)

Stops at bonus round: Brock Lesnar

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 28, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> That was with his RNY off and they still did no real damage.


It did enough damage for Temari to note that she would to opt for a blade dance barage.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Looks like it only cracked his RNY, actually. _Barely_ noticeable, in any case.


But that has only a tiny fraction of chakra compared to the attack that is claimed to be neccesary in order to finish him off


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Because it's a cheap excuse y'all invent to downplay his durability, and one contradicted by the manga.
> 
> A3's *stated weakness*_ is _long range Fuutons like FRS.


His lightning armor is weak to wind that was the whole point of him suggesting long range Futons normal ninja wouldn't stand a chance in an upclose battle and those types of attacks allow them to be safely out of his range.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> The fact _even his own weakness _has such a hard time even troubling him should tell you A3 is a durability monster.


No one contended that he wasn't a durability monster in the first place.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> He near immediately leveled up all the way to *V3 Susano'o* to do it, unlike against Tsunade (where he just used V1).


The attack was only managing to grind away small pieces of his V1 and Tsunade outdamaged it in a single strike. He also went into a higher transformation state to push Naruto's jutsu off of him


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Was not. Naruclone was in base.


That's why I had it in parenthesis I wasn't sure and I even said may.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> He hadn't even _entered _SM yet lmao.


Above.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nope, it's stronger. Period.


No... we would have to pretend that jutsu don't canonically have better suitability towards different types of damage the most basic example being rasengan and chidori.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> The narrative literally states FRS failed against A3 in spite of being the *perfect kind of attack to hurt him*, and that the spear worked because* it was stronger than the shield*. Sounds like you need to stop making excuses and reread the manga.


Sounds like you need to take a second and pull your head out of your ass and remember that I have been reading and arguing the same thing as you have for years. I've already addressed why Futon was the best form of attack above and that is based off of the Naruto elemental system. I was reading at a 12th grade level since third of fourth grade. So please don't come at me like that again I would sincerely appreciate it because I did feel a bit insulted. Narrative also points to Gaara having the strongest shield and Susanoo is supposed to be the ultimate defense so I mean where are we getting at? We also know the weaker element can beat the stronger one out on occasions. We would also have to ignore the canonical difference between the two jutsu as if that doesn't play a role as well.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> I also responded to your entire argument, providing scans to prove my points.


I don't have the time to do that on my phone and I have work in a few. All of the things I've said can be found in the manga.


MHA massive fan said:


> Yet not by FRS so either looking at art details is irrelevant or the cloak simply makes him that much more durable as it was in base that he got injured


The attack not being as strong as FRS obviously shows that the type of damage is different. I also never argued about his durability increasing with his cloak in fact I agree.


MHA massive fan said:


> Tsunade never broke his rib cage the combined attack of A4 and Tsunade did


She cracked the entire front half with a single punch and broke it with a kick. Ay attacked from a completely different side and Tsunade is canonically stronger than Ay is considering before he hardly cracked a rib 


MHA massive fan said:


> Hell stab is stronger than FRs. FRS DID NOTHING
> Hell stab beat A3 twice


Hell Stab is also a piercing attack with energy gathered at a single point versus FRS which are tiny microscopic blades targeted everywhere why would we ignore that incredibly important difference? There is more likely more chakra in FRS no?


Aegon Targaryen said:


> But if a funny react is all it takes you to stop posting...that's your problem, not mine.


Yeah sure ignore the fact that I posted that before your post and in the context at the time all I got was a funny rating for all that I posted. Please don't make me out to be sensitive you and I both know that isn't the case. You know what I was referring to.

Anyways despite any valid points the Sannin group makes our arguments will automatically recieve a discounted look due to supposed bias. Even when the point is a fairly good one. So I'll just take this as a sign that I made a mistake deciding to debate and go on about my night. I appreciate the prompt responses I received thank you guys for your time.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 28, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> It did enough damage for Temari to note that she would to opt for a blade dance barage



*Temari*: We are not doing *anything *to him at all.

*You*: Temari did *enough damage* to note XYZ.



Temari opting for a blade dance barrage is just her _hoping a stronger attack will work_, it is not_ proof a weaker one did_.



SakuraLover16 said:


> But that has only a tiny fraction of chakra compared to the attack that is claimed to be neccesary in order to finish him off



And?



SakuraLover16 said:


> His lightning armor is weak to wind that was the whole point of him suggesting long range Futons normal ninja wouldn't stand a chance in an upclose battle and those types of attacks allow them to be safely out of his range



So concession accepted that A3's own weakness cannot kill him easily.

Where do you get off arguing attacks that aren't even his weakness_ can even hurt him_? 



SakuraLover16 said:


> No one contended that he wasn't a durability monster in the first place



Idk, you Sannin supporters try notoriously hard to downplay his durability. I have seen it before.

Heck, I have been guilty of it myself.



SakuraLover16 said:


> The attack was only managing to grind away small pieces of his V1



So V1 didn't actually neg it? 



SakuraLover16 said:


> and Tsunade outdamaged it in a single strike



Proof?

Madara leveled up V1 to V3 before Naruto could complete the attack, he did no such thing against Tsunade.

If anything, that implies* Base COR >>> Byakugou CES *for Naruto to push Madara to use a much stronger Susano'o.



SakuraLover16 said:


> He also went into a higher transformation state to push Naruto's jutsu off of him



The ribcage can form arms and weapons too. Why use V3 _at all _if it wasn't necessary?

Dropping the meteors at least made sense as Madara had a new toy he wanted to try out.



SakuraLover16 said:


> That's why I had it in parenthesis I wasn't sure and I even said may



Ok.



SakuraLover16 said:


> No... we would have to pretend that jutsu don't canonically have better suitability towards different types of damage the most basic example being rasengan and chidori



Sounds like headcanon.

Rasengan and Chidori are not more or less suitable towards different types of damage (or obstacles), unless you mean something super specific like wanting a Raiton to overpower a Doton or electrocute Suigetsu. Rasengan is flat out* stronger*, Jiraiya stated it, Sasuke realized it after fighting Naruto at the water tower, had his KI-imbued Chidori matched by a Naruto explicitly trying to NOT kill Sasuke, and finally needs Enton Chidori to cancel out a Base Rasengan (inb4 Kurama enhancement even though nothing is implied to be different).



SakuraLover16 said:


> Sounds like you need to take a second and pull your head out of your ass



And now you are being genuinely hostile for no reason. I am going to give you one chance to step back before I respond in kind.



SakuraLover16 said:


> and remember that I have been reading and arguing the same thing as you have for years



So have plenty of known trolls like Perfect Susano, MaruUchiha, and Troyse22.



SakuraLover16 said:


> I've already addressed why Futon was the best form of attack above and that is based off of the Naruto elemental system



Cool, you still have yet to realize that is a concession of your original point 



SakuraLover16 said:


> I was reading at a 12th grade level since third of fourth grade



Cool, I never asked and I sincerely do not care.

You are wrong, pure and simple.



SakuraLover16 said:


> So please don't come at me like that again I would sincerely appreciate it because I did feel a bit insulted



How did I come at you exactly?



SakuraLover16 said:


> Narrative also points to Gaara having the strongest shield



Actually, the narrative points to Gaara* now* having the strongest shield and* because* its weakness was as cheap as ''hurr durr redirect the Nukite into the shield''.



SakuraLover16 said:


> We also know the weaker element can beat the stronger one out on occasions



True, never denied that. 

That is why RNY A3 seemed* less* injured by KCMFRS than Base Ay3 (skin cracking in the cold) was by Temari and company (cat scratches).

Doesn't change the fact it's still his ultimate weakness 



SakuraLover16 said:


> We would also have to ignore the canonical difference between the two jutsu as if that doesn't play a role as well.



What canonical difference?



SakuraLover16 said:


> I don't have the time to do that on my phone and I have work in a few. All of the things I've said can be found in the manga



The manga flat out contradicts you. I should know, because I provided scans from it.


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## MHA massive fan (Jan 28, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> It did enough damage for Temari to note that she would to opt for a blade dance barage.


Fair then RNY is just that durable


SakuraLover16 said:


> But that has only a tiny fraction of chakra compared to the attack that is claimed to be neccesary in order to finish him off


And yet FRS with far more charka according to naruto did nothing thus RNY Is just that durable


SakuraLover16 said:


> His lightning armor is weak to wind that was the whole point of him suggesting long range Futons normal ninja wouldn't stand a chance in an upclose battle and those types of attacks allow them to be safely out of his range


And yet refer to above . Unless you think temari attack > FRS


SakuraLover16 said:


> No one contended that he wasn't a durability monster in the first place.
> 
> The attack was only managing to grind away small pieces of his V1 and Tsunade outdamaged it in a single strike. He also went into a higher transformation state to push Naruto's jutsu off of him


OK


SakuraLover16 said:


> That's why I had it in parenthesis I wasn't sure and I even said may.
> 
> Above.
> 
> No... we would have to pretend that jutsu don't canonically have better suitability towards different types of damage the most basic example being rasengan and chidori.


THJS bit sounds made up . Give me examples , if I say hell blade > FRS it’s because hell blade would do better AGAINST all defences compared to FRS that’s what stronger means


SakuraLover16 said:


> Sounds like you need to take a second and pull your head out of your ass and remember that I have been reading and arguing the same thing as you have for years. I've already addressed why Futon was the best form of attack above and that is based off of the Naruto elemental system. I was reading at a 12th grade level since third of fourth grade. So please don't come at me like that again I would sincerely appreciate it because I did feel a bit insulted.


This isn’t to me I am sure of this


SakuraLover16 said:


> Narrative also points to Gaara having the strongest shield and Susanoo is supposed to be the ultimate defense so I mean where are we getting at? We also know the weaker element can beat the stronger one out on occasions. We would also have to ignore the canonical difference between the two jutsu as if that doesn't play a role as well.
> 
> I don't have the time to do that on my phone and I have work in a few. All of the things I've said can be found in the manga.
> 
> ...


None of this is to me


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## Francyst (Jan 28, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Sounds like you need to take a second and pull your head out of your ass and remember that I have been reading and arguing the same thing as you have for years. I've already addressed why Futon was the best form of attack above and that is based off of the Naruto elemental system. I was reading at a 12th grade level since third of fourth grade. So please don't come at me like that again I would sincerely appreciate it because I did feel a bit insulted.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## GrandBenja (Jan 28, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> The thing that he for certain has over them is his ridiculous stamina and decently hard body. No one denies that however for some reason people think he is invincible and can't be touched. If he was portrayed anywhere like the battle dome believes he is he would have conquered and laid waste to the four other great villages.


Agreed. He is hard to injure, yes, but he never was portrayed as utterly immune to anything below a Bijūdama. It's not like he could just stand there and tank Orochimaru's attacks for hours.


SakuraLover16 said:


> I mean a funny rating is hardly an argument of refutation nor have I made up or used anything of outside the manga to illustrate my point. This is the reason why I don't post here anymore.


I would recommend using the "ignore" function. You don't get rating notifications if you ignore the "funny" spammer.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 28, 2022)

Beyonce said:


> Can we all mass lewd rate this filthy heretic post @Speedyamell @Nali @SakuraLover16 @Lyren @dergeist @Aegon Targaryen @Serene Grace @Orochimaruwantsyourbody


I apologize on my dear friend @WorldsStrongest ..behalf  

I assure the committee he has Chadkura and Studnade at high kage at the least

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Mithos (Jan 28, 2022)

He probably beats Base Jiraiya, but loses to the rest. Absolutely no chance against all three at once.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Neutral 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 28, 2022)

GrandBenja said:


> Agreed. He is hard to injure, yes, but he never was portrayed as utterly immune to anything below a Bijūdama. It's not like he could just stand there and tank Orochimaru's attacks for hours.
> 
> I would recommend using the "ignore" function. You don't get rating notifications if you ignore the "funny" spammer.


I hate doing that though. I'll just call it quits to the battledome. I'll just go back to lurking if even that. The atmosphere here isn't the best. No one actually wants to do anything other than be right regardless if they are or not.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Traveling Swordsman (Jan 28, 2022)

The round order is backward. It should be
Round 1: Orochimaru
Round 2: Tsunade
Round 3: Jiraiya

Reactions: Funny 1


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## GrandBenja (Jan 28, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I hate doing that though. I'll just call it quits to the battledome. I'll just go back to lurking if even that. The atmosphere here isn't the best. No one actually wants to do anything other than be right regardless if they are or not.


From my experience, that's just a small minority. The forum is a relatively friendly place if you have the few aggressive / ill-mannered ones on ignore.

Anyway, have a good day / night, then. 
You're perfectly right not to spend any more time in a place that doesn't help improve your happiness.

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Monarch (Jan 28, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> The atmosphere here isn't the best.


Indeed, especially when there are people telling others to pull their heads out of their asses in a debate, and bragging about themselves because they "feel insulted" by absolutely nothing insulting thrown by the opposition.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 3


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 28, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Indeed, especially when there are people telling others to pull their heads out of their asses in a debate, and bragging about themselves because they "feel insulted" by absolutely nothing insulting thrown by the opposition.



I mean, when a laugh react triggers you (and keep in mind I posted a detailed explanation with scans after the fact), it's not the forum that's at fault, I think

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 28, 2022)

*Me*: Stop making excuses and reread the manga (notice I didn't say "learn to read" or something genuinely offensive, notice I didn't even use any actual insults, and above all - notice SakuraLover is the one who told me to _take my head out of my butt_) 

*SakuraLover*: You're mean to me! This is why I don't like coming to this forum.


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## Ludi (Jan 28, 2022)

He wins round 1 3 and 4 comfortably and probably wins round 2 too, unless OOC early frog song. Round 5 is the only interesting really and they might win that one via 2 stalling and 1 frog song.


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## Beyonce (Jan 29, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> *Me*: Stop making excuses and reread the manga (notice I didn't say "learn to read" or something genuinely offensive, notice I didn't even use any actual insults, and above all - notice SakuraLover is the one who told me to _take my head out of my butt_)
> 
> *SakuraLover*: You're mean to me! This is why I don't like coming to this forum.





ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Indeed, especially when there are people telling others to pull their heads out of their asses in a debate, and bragging about themselves because they "feel insulted" by absolutely nothing insulting thrown by the opposition.


Telling people to stop making excuses and to re-read the manga isn’t exactly friendly though.. It’s certainly hostile and prompts a hostile response. Shit even I would snap back if someone told me to re-read something I’ve read and discussed for literally years. On top of being accused of making excuses.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 29, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Indeed, especially when there are people telling others to pull their heads out of their asses in a debate, and bragging about themselves because they "feel insulted" by absolutely nothing insulting thrown by the opposition.


I mean yes I would be insulted by being told to stop being biased and making excuses and to reread something that you know damn well we been arguing over back and forth for years. The implication that I'm just biased and need to reread like I have no idea what I've read is insulting. So me telling you that I could read at the highest level in elementary school is me saying I know how to read period. I understand no need to bragging to strangers on the internet about something I did over 14 years ago.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> I mean, when a laugh react triggers you (and keep in mind I posted a detailed explanation with scans after the fact), it's not the forum that's at fault, I think


Right after the fact. Not before when I made the comment therefore at that point all I had gotten was an emote for what I had posted. So no it had nothing to do with rating but rating as a response which I clarified after the fact


Aegon Targaryen said:


> *Me*: Stop making excuses and reread the manga (notice I didn't say "learn to read" or something genuinely offensive, notice I didn't even use any actual insults, and above all - notice SakuraLover is the one who told me to _take my head out of my butt_)
> 
> *SakuraLover*: You're mean to me! This is why I don't like coming to this forum.


I didn't say anyone was being mean. Did I feel insulted? Yes. Did I wrongly say something to you? Yes. However this had nothing to do with anyone being mean (not that I called anyone mean) and I explained as much in a prior post. The atmosphere here is just bad for discussion point blank. It's less about actually talking through things and more about being right (regardless of whether one is or not) which I've said before as well. I will admit that I was already defensive before I said my piece because discussions regarding the Sannin only lead to one place usually and for that I do apologize.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

Beyonce said:


> Telling people to stop making excuses and to re-read the manga isn’t exactly friendly though.. It’s certainly hostile and prompts a hostile response. Shit even I would snap back if someone told me to re-read something I’ve read and discussed for literally years. On top of being accused of making excuses.



It's not friendly, I will give you that any time, but it's also not particularly hostile. _Definitely_ not as hostile as "pull your head out of your ass" lmao. 

Also, if you snap back if someone asks you to reread the manga, that's a you problem really. We ALL by definition _do _(AND need to) reread the manga (and Databooks) at times, myself included. We ARE rereading them over and over again when we debate on this forum. That's the reality of things.

Lastly, you're confusing an attack on an argument or the quality of one with an attack on a person. Me saying you're making excuses is not the same as saying I need to pull my head out of my ass.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I mean yes I would be insulted by being told to stop being biased and making excuses and to reread something that you know damn well we been arguing over back and forth for years.



Those are an attack on your argument, not you personally. Don't get them twisted.



SakuraLover16 said:


> The implication that I'm just biased



If I thought you were just biased, I wouldn't even bother telling you to reread the manga...



SakuraLover16 said:


> and need to reread like I have no idea what I've read



Or maybe you forgot. 

Or maybe you didn't actually examine or absorb what the manga said. 

These things happen and are common. Why are you automatically assuming I'm trying to go after you, exactly?



SakuraLover16 said:


> So me telling you that I could read at the highest level in elementary school is me saying I know how to read period



No one asked, again. Not me nor OoOM. 

No one doubts you CAN read. I asked you to reread, not to read (or even to learn to read, which I actually have asked many people to do for a fact).



SakuraLover16 said:


> Right after the fact. Not before when I made the comment therefore at that point all I had gotten was an emote for what I had posted. So no it had nothing to do with rating but rating as a response which I clarified after the fact



So maybe..you should have _waited_ instead of automatically assuming I would laugh at your comment and nothing more? 

You're judging me pretty unfairly lmao.



SakuraLover16 said:


> I didn't say anyone was being mean



You said my actions made the atmosphere of this forum worse for you. 

Pretty much the same thing, if not worse.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Did I feel insulted? Yes.



There you go  



SakuraLover16 said:


> Did I wrongly say something to you? Yes



 



SakuraLover16 said:


> However this had nothing to do with anyone being mean (not that I called anyone mean) and I explained as much in a prior post. The atmosphere here is just bad for discussion point blank. It's less about actually talking through things and more about being right (regardless of whether one is or not) which I've said before as well.



I agree in many cases, but this time _you're_ the reason why that's the case. It would have just been a slightly heated debate had you, y'know, merely responded to me in kind instead of complaining about me being rude (unjustly) and telling me to take my head out of my ass (also unjustly).  



SakuraLover16 said:


> I will admit that I was already defensive before I said my piece because discussions regarding the Sannin only lead to one place usually and for that I do apologize.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 29, 2022)

Beyonce said:


> Telling people to stop making excuses and to re-read the manga isn’t exactly friendly though.. It’s certainly hostile and prompts a hostile response. Shit even I would snap back if someone told me to re-read something I’ve read and discussed for literally years. On top of being accused of making excuses.


That's pretty much how I feel. I was wrong regardless but the tone that I got from that was hostile whether that was the intended affect or not. We have literally done the back and forth on this subject for years and making excuses to me has the same connotation as an unfaithful argument. Which while I've been up here I've made it my mission to only be truthful with my argumentation and with the evidence I bring up.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Beyonce (Jan 29, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's not friendly, I will give you that any time, but it's also not particularly hostile. _Definitely_ not as hostile as "pull your head out of your ass" lmao.


To each their own but to me they’re both the same level of disrespect. It’s annoying to have someone in which you didn’t even respond to have their first reply to your post be “you’re making cheap excuses that you invented” or “you need to reread the manga and stop making excuses” despite the fact @SakuraLover16’s argument wasn’t even inherently wrong . Literally nothing they said is a direct contradiction to the source material it’s just a difference in interpretation. They didn’t flat out lie when they said Naruto’s rasengan and temari’s wind attack injured the raikage. It DID. It’s on paper it’s right there. Sure not significant damage but @SakuraLover16 wasnt arguing that. They were arguing that smaller attacks can injure the raikage so it should stand to reason that multiple small attacks will start to actually do damage to him seeing as he doesn’t have the edo regen caveat. 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Also, if you snap back if someone asks you to reread the manga, that's a you problem really. We ALL by definition _do _(AND need to) reread the manga (and Databooks) at times, myself included. We ARE rereading them over and over again when we debate on this forum. That's the reality of things.


But you’re not using it in a context that’s productive . You’re telling them to reread the manga and to stop making cheap excuses. It’s not for the betterment of @SakuraLover16 as a debater it’s a way to put their argumentation skills down. If somebody told me I was making cheap excuses and to again, reread source material despite not having said anything outlandishly wrong I would get pissed!

I’ll give you an example. There’s a thing in my religion called giving Dawah (religious guidance). In reality everyone needs dawah but the problem with so many Muslims today is they give dawah as a way to be condescending to sinners. We tell people to reread our holy book (which is a good thing by all means!) but not because we want to actually give guidance. We do it to shame and humiliate them.

While I’m not saying you’re shaming them intentionally  because I genuinely believe you’re a kind & understanding person on this forum it just comes off that way.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Gianfi (Jan 29, 2022)

Crofty said:


> Location: Naruto vs A3
> Distance: 50m
> Knowledge: Manga
> Intent: To Kill
> ...


Individually beats all. But gets stomped in round 5


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

Beyonce said:


> To each their own but to me they’re both the same level of disrespect



Not at all. You are also conflating an attack on an argument with an attack on person.



Beyonce said:


> It’s annoying to have someone in which you didn’t even respond to have their first reply to your post be “you’re making cheap excuses that you invented” or “you need to reread the manga and stop making excuses” despite the fact @SakuraLover16’s argument wasn’t even inherently wrong .



It was. SakuraLover16 was trying to argue Nukite was not superior to FRS in spite of Nukite doing what FRS could not, in spite of Nukite *explicitly* being called stronger than the shield that FRS failed against, AND in spite of FRS (not Nukite) being the _natural weakness_ of A3's armor.

What FRS could not do with an elemental advantage, Nukite did with raw power.



Beyonce said:


> Literally nothing they said is a direct contradiction to the source material it’s just a difference in interpretation



Their main point literally is, as stated above.



Beyonce said:


> They didn’t flat out lie when they said Naruto’s rasengan and temari’s wind attack injured the raikage. It DID. It’s on paper it’s right there



They left out the fact A3 was in base for the Fuuton and the damage he took from Rasengan was laughably minor (and again, it's not even clear it hurt his _skin_).



Beyonce said:


> Sure not significant damage but @SakuraLover16 wasnt arguing that. They were arguing that smaller attacks can injure the raikage so it should stand to reason that multiple small attacks will start to actually do damage to him seeing as he doesn’t have the edo regen caveat



See, this is what I mean lol. A3's juggernaut status in the actual manga was attributed ENTIRELY to his insane bulk, not (at any point) ET status. Yet you keep trying to argue being an ET is relevant  



Beyonce said:


> But you’re not using it in a context that’s productive . You’re telling them to reread the manga and to stop making cheap excuses. It’s not for the betterment of @SakuraLover16 as a debater it’s a way to put their argumentation skills down. If somebody told me I was making cheap excuses and to again, reread source material despite not having said anything outlandishly wrong I would get pissed!



No, it's just a way to say that their argument (not argumentation skill) sucks. 

Also, they got multiple points wrong. Not only did they omit various points when they said A3 took "damage", they also tried to argue FRS was > Nukite even though the manga tells you with the subtlety of a bullhorn it's the opposite. 

The manga emphasized the spear was stronger than the shield and that A3 lost because of that fact. Not once is KCMFRS failing against A3 for being the "wrong" type of attack even implied, that's hilariously wrong and goes against Naruto and Dodai attributing FRS's failure to A3 just being ridiculously durable. 

In fact, Dodai even states that A3's weakness is long range Fuutons, which FRS is (but Nukite obviously is not). The fact FRS could not kill A3 while being his weakness but Nukite could in spite of not being his weakness is proof Nukite >>> FRS.



Beyonce said:


> I’ll give you an example. There’s a thing in my religion called giving Dawah (religious guidance). In reality everyone needs dawah but the problem with so many Muslims today is they give dawah as a way to be condescending to sinners. We tell people to reread our holy book (which is a good thing by all means!) but not because we want to actually give guidance. We do it to shame and humiliate them.
> 
> While I’m not saying you’re shaming them intentionally  because I genuinely believe you’re a kind & understanding person on this forum it just comes off that way.



Ok...?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

In fact, SakuraLover16 multiple times repeats their belief (not proven by anything factual) that A3 survived KCMFRS because it was the _wrong_ kind of attack, even though the narrative tells us it - as a long range Fuuton - is _literally his weakness _

I'm sorry, but that's straight up wrong. It isn't even debatable. The manga tells you you're wrong.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

Also, good debaters can make bad arguments and bad debaters can make good arguments. Try not to be attached to your argument so much that any critique of it feels like a personal critique of you.


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## Beyonce (Jan 29, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not at all. You are also conflating an attack on an argument with an attack on person.


Telling me I’m making cheap excuses and that I need to reread the source material that I’ve reread countless times is blatant disrespect and you’re not going to argue against me like it’s not LMFAO


Aegon Targaryen said:


> It was. SakuraLover16 was trying to argue Nukite was not superior to FRS in spite of Nukite doing what FRS could not, in spite of Nukite *explicitly* being called stronger than the shield that FRS failed against, AND in spite of FRS (not Nukite) being the _natural weakness_ of A3's armor.
> 
> What FRS could not do with an elemental advantage, Nukite did with raw power.


Sakuralover said the nature of FRS isn’t explosive power but rather multiple tiny blades which makes sense as to why it didn’t cause him more damage. The two techniques are fundamentally different


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Their main point literally is, as stated above.


Their point was that you don’t need techniques stronger than hell  stab and FRS to injure him.. Which is true.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> They left out the fact A3 was in base for the Fuuton and the damage he took from Rasengan was laughably minor (and again, it's not even clear it hurt his _skin_).


?? And?? They didn’t say anything wrong. They said it injured him and it DID. The Sannin have attacks that are MUCH stronger than a palm sized Rasengan and a temari’s wind attack so it goes without saying that their attacks will also damage the raikage to a degree.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> See, this is what I mean lol. A3's juggernaut status in the actual manga was attributed ENTIRELY to his insane bulk, not (at any point) ET status. Yet you keep trying to argue being an ET is relevant


That’s not what I’m saying LMFAO. I’m saying that ET provides him with a way to regenerate from whatever the Sannin dish out meaning you’d have to have an attack that’s hellstab level to actually defeat him seeing as anything less will just get regenerated anyways. Multiple attacks that are NOT hellstab level will kill him seeing as again, he has been injured by attacks weaker.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Also, they got multiple points wrong. Not only did they omit various points when they said A3 took "damage", they also tried to argue FRS was > Nukite even though the manga tells you with the subtlety of a bullhorn it's the opposite.
> The manga emphasized the spear was stronger than the shield and that A3 lost because of that fact. Not once is KCMFRS failing against A3 for being the "wrong" type of attack even implied, that's hilariously wrong and goes against Naruto and Dodai attributing FRS's failure to A3 just being ridiculously durable. In fact, Dodai even states that A3's weakness is long range Fuutons, which FRS is (but Nukite obviously is not). The fact FRS could not kill A3 while being his weakness but Nukite could in spite of not being his weakness is proof Nukite >>> FRS.



No it doesn’t because you’re ignoring the nature of FRS. It doesn’t work the same way as hellstab works irrespective of elemental advantage. In the same way you can’t compare Mei’s yoton to Tsunade’s punches whereas you could compare Tsunade’s punches to Raikage’s punches seeing as they’re both physical attacks/attacks that function the same way



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Ok...?


Oh nah you’re wrong  for this mate . I’ve been nothing but kind to you and am trying to find grounds for understanding and you shrug it off like it doesn’t even matter with passive aggressive one word responses. I see no reason to continue this until you get off whatever high horse you’re on.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Disagree 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 29, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Those are an attack on your argument, not you personally. Don't get them twisted.


In my mind they are the same because what I said was factual. Therefore saying I was making an excuse is the same as accusing me of lying at least to me.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> If I thought you were just biased, I wouldn't even bother telling you to reread the manga...


Above.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Or maybe you forgot.
> 
> Or maybe you didn't actually examine or absorb what the manga said.
> 
> These things happen and are common. Why are you automatically assuming I'm trying to go after you, exactly?


You know I've always been truthful in whether or not I'm hazy in a specific debate I always make it known upfront.

I obviously did absorb what the manga said that's the reason why I'm arguing now. I'm not new to reading and comprehending


Aegon Targaryen said:


> No one asked, again. Not me nor OoOM.
> 
> No one doubts you CAN read. I asked you to reread, not to read (or even to learn to read, which I actually have asked many people to do for a fact).


The way in which you said it was the issue.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> So maybe..you should have _waited_ instead of automatically assuming I would laugh at your comment and nothing more?
> 
> You're judging me pretty unfairly lmao.


I mean a rate and run is common as far as arguments dealing with the Sannin goes. Also I never called anyone out I just said it's one of the reasons why no one engages Sannin  arguments anymore.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> You said my actions made the atmosphere of this forum worse for you.
> 
> Pretty much the same thing, if not worse.


No I didn't say anything about you. Please quote my post.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> I agree in many cases, but this time _you're_ the reason why that's the case. It would have just been a slightly heated debate had you, y'know, merely responded to me in kind instead of complaining about me being rude (unjustly) and telling me to take my head out of my ass (also unjustly).


Was it rude? Yes. Unjust I don't believe so.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 29, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> In my mind they are the same because what I said was factual. Therefore saying I was making an excuse is the same as accusing me of lying at least to me.
> 
> 
> Above.
> ...


I'm a lot of things but a liar typically isn't said to be one of them. It just happens to be more convenient to ignore the obvious glaring fact that the two techniques argued aren't comparable because they don't work the same.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I'm a lot of things but a liar typically isn't said to be one of them



Never called you a liar. If you're going to invent offenses that never existed...



SakuraLover16 said:


> It just happens to be more convenient to ignore the obvious glaring fact that the two techniques argued aren't comparable because they don't work the same.



Except for the fact the manga (and DB4, for that matter) specifically say A3 tanked KCMFRS because he was durable enough to do so, not because it was the "wrong" type of attack or whatever lmao. That last part is your headcanon, nothing but.



Beyonce said:


> Sakuralover said the nature of FRS isn’t explosive power but rather multiple tiny blades which makes sense as to why it didn’t cause him more damage



The problem is that this excuse makes absolutely zero sense. The manga (and Databook) never once attributed A3 tanking KCMFRS to "multiple tiny blades", it attributed A3 tanking KCMFRS...to him being an ultra-durable son of a bitch. 

We are told by Dodai that Fuutons are more effective against A3 compared to everything else, yet A3 is just so freakishly inhuman even those can't cut him. KCMFRS...is literally a Fuuton - one of the strongest there is (Temari even compares it favourably to HER Fuutons).

Lastly, you and SakuraLover16 are essentially painting KCMFRS as some attack that's weak because it attacks people at the cellular level...when ironically that is what makes FRS so deadly in the first place lmao. FRS is the same attack that left virtually no trace of Human Path other than his head, so its amped forms deal plenty of external damage.

Like, I would have attributed your earlier misunderstanding to you just not really looking at what the manga said. 



Beyonce said:


> The two techniques are fundamentally different



The problem is that you and Sakura have failed to proven why this difference matters, and ignored all manga and Databook evidence to the contrary. 



Beyonce said:


> Their point was that you don’t need techniques stronger than hell  stab and FRS to injure him.. Which is true



No, they specifically straight up argued Nukite was *not* stronger than KCMFRS, and A3 tanked KCMFRS because it was the wrong type of attack for him (even though NOTHING) in the narrative implies this.

Absolutely. Nothing. 

And at this point, it is clear you are just being stubborn and trying to insert your headcanon above the words and images of canon. 

The manga goes out of its way to: 

*A*) Recommend Fuutons against A3 (which KCMFRS is) 

*B*) Hype up KCMFRS as a stronger Fuuton than those used against A3 earlier 

*C*) Explicitly attribute A3 still tanking that to his his insane durability

*D*) And then flat out say and prove his spear > said insane durability.

You know what it *never* does? 

Suggest KCMFRS failed against A3 because "hurt durr cellular damage too weak lol". 



Beyonce said:


> ?? And?? They didn’t say anything wrong. They said it injured him and it DID. The Sannin have attacks that are MUCH stronger than a palm sized Rasengan



Conveniently leaving out the fact that palm-sized SM amped Rasengan does negligible damage that can't even be seen, and could just as easily have only affected the cloak and not A3's own skin lmao.



Beyonce said:


> and a temari’s wind attack



Temari and two other Fuuton users, and all of them attacked A3 while he was unarmored (literally in base). 

Also, to be quite frank, you are assuming the Sannin have stronger attacks than Temari because they're the Sannin, even though nothing really implies or States this. Only Jiraiya's SMCOR actually comes off as stronger than anything that even came close to affecting him and even that is <<< KCMFRs, Tsuna and Oro do not.



Beyonce said:


> That’s not what I’m saying LMFAO. I’m saying that ET provides him with a way to regenerate from whatever the Sannin dish out meaning you’d have to have an attack that’s hellstab level to actually defeat him seeing as anything less will just get regenerated anyways. Multiple attacks that are NOT hellstab level will kill him seeing as again, he has been injured by attacks weaker



Still irrelevant, Edo regen is. Multiple attacks can kill him but it would take a boatload of them and this all assumes A3 is just standing there letting them attack him and not returning fire  



Beyonce said:


> No it doesn’t because you’re ignoring the nature of FRS. It doesn’t work the same way as hellstab works irrespective of elemental advantage



No, YOU don't understand what you're talking about. You keep asserting "KCMFRS different type of attack" as if it's somehow relevant, even though you have provided absolutely zero proof it is. 

All _canon_ evidence points to KCMFRS being tailor made for A3, and *still failing because A3 was that freakishly tough*. 

The manga and Databook don't say A3 lost to Nukite because "Nukite different from FRS", it says A3 lost to Nukite because "the spear was stronger than his shield". 

Anything else is headcanon.



Beyonce said:


> In the same way you can’t compare Mei’s yoton to Tsunade’s punches whereas you could compare Tsunade’s punches to Raikage’s punches seeing as they’re both physical attacks/attacks that function the same way



You absolutely can. This idea of split durability you're arguing is largely unfounded, but above all, irrelevant to A3.

A3 tanked KCMFRS because he's just that durable (manga and DB4). 



Beyonce said:


> Oh nah you’re wrong  for this mate . I’ve been nothing but kind to you and am trying to find grounds for understanding and you shrug it off like it doesn’t even matter with passive aggressive one word responses. I see no reason to continue this until you get off whatever high horse you’re on.



No, you are literally digging your heels in and continuing to assert headcanon is superior to canon in spite of being given scans and arguments that explicitly spell out you're wrong. 

It's not a matter of me being on my high horse, it's a matter of me not accepting bullshit (regardless of the intentions behind it) and calling it out. If that offends you, that's your problem - again. 

Also, I have to say it's quite funny you and Sakura let WorldsStrongest call your ideas "retardation" (which is downright ableist) but when I take a far less harsher stance and actually go out of my way to debate (merely insinuating you need to recheck your source), I'm the bad guy

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

Like, the way y'all are asserting "KCMFRS does cellular damage so it does less damage to A3" so confidently is just super weird, given that NOTHING in the actual canon ever remotely supports this (all available canon evidence not only simply praises A3 for being durable enough to tank it, it also states KCMFRS is _better_ than most jutsu when it comes to harming him).

_I_ should be offended by the fact you are repeating this baseless argument (if it wasn't baseless, I'd have seen some evidence by now, one way or another).


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 29, 2022)

It's seriously the most basic of concepts... like beyond basic... @Beyonce See?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

What's basic is the fact that you're constantly regurgitating the same headcanon. You aren't even _trying_ to provide any canon evidence to back up your arguments lmao. Kinda dismal, actually.

Just the same tired "b-but cellular damage so it's weak against A3" when the narrative never, ever suggests or supports such an argument


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

*The manga and DBs*: A3 is a durable fucking tank, period. He tanked KCMFRS (a Fuuton stronger than that which Temari and company used, AND HIS NATURAL WEAKNESS) because his body was super tough. He fell to Nukite because Nukite was tougher. 

*Sakura and Beyonce*: Nukite is not stronger than FRS in spite of literally being stated to be superior to A3's shield, the same shield explicitly stated to have tanked KCMFRS in account of its crazy thicc nature (and NEVER any "different type of damage" property lmao).


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

Like, just to break it down further:

*The manga*: A3 is a durable son of a bitch

*The manga*: A3's biggest natural weakness is Fuutons (not piercing attacks, _never_ stated to be piercing attacks)

*The manga*: Temari outright voices her belief KCMFRS would work where her own Fuutons did not after seeing KCMFRS in action

*The manga*: A3 tanked KCMFRS anyway because he was "impenetrable" and had a "steeled body" (DB4)

*The manga*: A3 only ultimately took fatal damage from his own Nukite, because Nukite was stronger than even his body (the same one KCMFRS failed to damage)

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

Like, it's not that complicated. His entire deal is that he's a fucking juggernaut that can't be brought down outside of his own spear (or something even stronger, as implausible as it may be). If "piercing attacks" could have taken him down by virtue of being piercing attacks, they would've come up, Dodai knows A3 personally and his power

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 29, 2022)

Umm just because you don't like what i said doesn't make it headcanon sir. FRS and Hell Stab are two entirely different jutsu that work two entirely different ways. You are just overcomplicating things for no reason. Tsunade states that FRS works in a similar way to poison and directly attacks the chakra network and cells with microscopic needles (If his body is hard it stands to reason that his cells are just as hard). Nukite was used in a similar way like how chidori works which is highly concentrated lightning chakra honed to a specific point. It's the same reason why the less fingers he uses the stronger it gets. Chidori is the reason why Sasuke was able to get past Ay's chakra cloak despite not having the elemental advantage. Like I don't understand why it's hard to swallow that different types of attacks work better or worse depending on the situation. It's not headcanon to acknowledge that rasengan and chidori excel at different damage types this is no different.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Lewd 1


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## GrandBenja (Jan 29, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Umm just because you don't like what i said doesn't make it headcanon sir. FRS and Hell Stab are two entirely different jutsu that work two entirely different ways. You are just overcomplicating things for no reason. Tsunade states that FRS works in a similar way to poison and directly attacks the chakra network and cells with microscopic needles (If his body is hard it stands to reason that his cells are just as hard). Nukite was used in a similar way like how chidori works which is highly concentrated lightning chakra honed to a specific point. It's the same reason why the less fingers he uses the stronger it gets. Chidori is the reason why Sasuke was able to get past Ay's chakra cloak despite not having the elemental advantage. Like I don't understand why it's hard to swallow that different types of attacks work better or worse depending on the situation. It's not headcanon to acknowledge that rasengan and chidori excel at different damage types this is no different.


Yeah; it seems rather straightforward. Hum. Let's take a simple video game example:

- Spell A deals 1 tick of 70 damage.
- Spell B deals 30 ticks of 4 damage.

Let's now consider the following opponents:
- Opponent A has 0 point of armour.
- Opponent B has 3 points of armour.

Against opponent A, spell B is the best: it will deal 120 points of damage (30 * 4), as opposed to spell A's 70.
Against opponent B, however, spell B won't work so well. It will only deal (30 * (4-3)) = 30 points of damage, as opposed to spell A's 67.

So, in Naruto's example, Naruto's Rasenshuriken would deal more damage to your average target than Nukite would. But against a high-armour opponent like A3, the Rasenshuriken deals almost negligible damage, whereas Nukite deals almost full damage.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Gin Ichimaru (Jan 29, 2022)

A3 stomps, mid kages dont really stand a chance to the stronger high kages


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## Symmetry (Jan 29, 2022)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Temari cut him open when his shroud was off. If Orochimaru paralyzes him he can do the same.


Do we know for certain that his raiton shroud would deactivate if hit with Oro’s poison tho?


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## Beyonce (Jan 29, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> Do we know for certain that his raiton shroud would deactivate if hit with Oro’s poison tho?


It probably wouldn’t. Sasuke was still able to mould chakra and use sharingan while paralyzed.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Umm just because you don't like what i said



It's not about what I like, it's about what the canon actually says. I know, you clearly have gotten that distinction twisted. 

You can't even provide a _single_ scan to back up anything you said lmao. 



SakuraLover16 said:


> doesn't make it headcanon sir.



No, it being headcanon makes it headcanon.



SakuraLover16 said:


> FRS and Hell Stab are two entirely different jutsu that work two entirely different ways



Cool. 

The problem is you have _not_ proven that said differences were relevant in this case. 

You also conveniently disregarded the fact FRS's differences canonically make it BETTER suited for harming A3 than Nukite, not WORSE.



SakuraLover16 said:


> You are just overcomplicating things for no reason



Projection much?  

The manga literally says A3 tanked KCMFRS because he was too durable for it, and fell to Nukite because Nukite was too strong for his durability. 

You're the one making up horseshit about how "b-but cellular damage!" somehow made KCMFRS less effective against A3 than a piercing attack (even though NOTHING in the manga supports this ass-backward theory you keep espousing). 



SakuraLover16 said:


> Tsunade states that FRS works in a similar way to poison and directly attacks the chakra network and cells with microscopic needles (If his body is hard it stands to reason that his cells are just as hard) Nukite was used in a similar way like how chidori works which is highly concentrated lightning chakra honed to a specific point. It's the same reason why the less fingers he uses the stronger it gets.



Literally no part of that suggests Nukite would outperform FRS against any opponent (unless it's simply stronger or some elemental advantage exists). 

Next? 



SakuraLover16 said:


> Chidori is the reason why Sasuke was able to get past Ay's chakra cloak despite not having the elemental advantage.



A4 =/ A3, that's your first mistake. 

Lmao at implying Chidori > FRS against durable opponents when even the basic Rasengan did _vastly_ more damage to a water tank and FRS >>>> Rasengan  

Or is Rasengan > FRS now for you too  



SakuraLover16 said:


> Like I don't understand why it's hard to swallow that different types of attacks work better or worse depending on the situation



Oh, I can swallow it. 

The problem is that the manga calls bullshit on your theory in THIS situation.

Why else are you failing to provide a single scan to support your arguments?  



SakuraLover16 said:


> It's not headcanon to acknowledge that rasengan and chidori excel at different damage types



Actually, it is. 

Rasengan is straight up superior (or at worst equal) to Chidori against the same targets. The Rasengan ultimately did far greater damage to the water tank, not just "different" damage. Or did you think Sasuke got scared for no reason?  



SakuraLover16 said:


> this is no different.



Very different. 

You're arguing with the manga here.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

@Darkmaiar Not sure what exactly you disagree with or why. The manga agrees with me, as does DB4. If you want to not be taken seriously, that's a you problem too


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 29, 2022)

I'm not all that interested in debating you. More than anything, my disagreement is with your attitude towards @SakuraLover16, which is unnecessarily hostile/condescending (though unfortunately not unusual for the modern Battledomes) and absolutely non-conducive towards good debate and analysis in the context of why we have forums to discuss imaginary matchups between fictional characters in an oft-inconsistent manga.

To so conclusively reject an offered analysis of why "tanking" the Rasenshuriken can be considered less impressive than some believe due to the mechanics of the technique by claiming that the manga itself disqualifies that notion, and that that is rebuttal enough to discredit the argument, when that goes against the spirit of fandom debate (and is a questionable basis in the first place since the manga literally *can't* make definitive statements on A3 vs. the Sannin since such a contest never occurred nor were any actual comparisons made between A3 and the Sannin) is something I can't help but disagree with.

The entirety of this matchup is dependent on the analyses we make of the manga. For all that we all have our ingrained powerscales for the characters, many of them never interact and are never compared. And much the same for many jutsu. We are required to insert our own interpretations of characters and jutsus and how they interact in order for any of these debates to even occur.

Is it not fair that I'm more convinced by @SakuraLover16 because they actually attempted to analyze and explain their perspective on A3's tanking feat and that I am _less_ convinced by yours because you've used the manga's very existence as your argument, declaring that A3 tanking the Rasenshuriken is some immutable plateau that no amount of analysis can call into question, thereby rejecting the very notion of fandom debates? But I digress. I think I've made my point clear.

Thankfully, I don't feel the need to be taken seriously in the current climate of the NBD, let alone that I even could be with the behaviors that have become the norm in the years since I've posted here. And that's all that I'll say on the matter.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 3 | Friendly 1


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## GrandBenja (Jan 29, 2022)

Darkmaiar said:


> To so conclusively reject an offered analysis of why "tanking" the Rasenshuriken can be considered less impressive than some believe due to the mechanics of the technique by claiming that the manga itself disqualifies that notion, and that that is rebuttal enough to discredit the argument, when that goes against the spirit of fandom debate (and is a questionable basis in the first place since the manga literally *can't* make definitive statements on A3 vs. the Sannin since such a contest never occurred nor were any actual comparisons made between A3 and the Sannin) is something I can't help but disagree with.


Agreed. I mean, if every interaction between two techniques were explicitly explained in the manga, we wouldn't be having debates to begin with.
The point of this forum is, precisely, to makes hypotheses about interactions that were not shown / stated in the manga. What'd be the point of only discussing "feats" that already are shown in the manga?


Darkmaiar said:


> Thankfully, I don't feel the need to be taken seriously in the current climate of the NBD, let alone that I even could be with the behaviors that have become the norm in the years since I've posted here. And that's all that I'll say on the matter.


I believe most of these kids (basically the 15 - 25 age range) don't even realise they're being rude. It's not specifically on this forum; there's a generational problem. They genuinely believe their behaviour is normal - and indeed, the other kids don't even feel insulted when this kind of behaviour is aimed at them. It's their norm.

Back in my days (and yours, I assume), we were actively taught manners and politeness. If we dared to say a tenth of what these teenagers are saying here, or to show the slightest bit of disrespect to anyone, we were in for a beating.
Those kids nowadays? I really wonder who raised them. (Although not all of them are like that, thankfully.)

Reactions: Like 5 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

Darkmaiar said:


> I'm not all that interested in debating you



Cool, judging by the looks of things here and your general attitude, you'd lose.



Darkmaiar said:


> More than anything, my disagreement is with your attitude towards @SakuraLover16, which is unnecessarily hostile/condescending (though unfortunately not unusual for the modern Battledomes) and absolutely non-conducive towards good debate and analysis in the context of why we have forums to discuss imaginary matchups between fictional characters in an oft-inconsistent manga.



Oh noes I gave someone a funny react and asked them to reread the manga!!!!111

What a MEANIE 



Darkmaiar said:


> To so conclusively reject an offered analysis



That analysis is pure assumption and not backed up by the manga or any other material. At all.

The manga and the Databook only, _and only_, praise A3 for tanking KCMFRS as am insane durability feat. Neither casts doubt on A3's tanking KCMFRS or provides any support for your argument.

In fact, the manga specifically says using Fuutons against A3 is the best way to harm him. Temari, upon seeing KCMFRS in action, thinks it is the best attack to use on him.

In other words, all available evidence supports A3 just being an insane tank who can shrug off FRS...whereas zero evidence supports your laughable theory.

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Next?



Darkmaiar said:


> of why "tanking" the Rasenshuriken can be considered less impressive than some believe



It's not what "some" believe, it's what the manga and Databook say.

The manga is pretty explicit about tanking the KCMFRS being an absolutely impressive feat and _never once _provides any support for your headcanon that it was the "wrong type of attack".



Darkmaiar said:


> due to the mechanics of the technique



Never stated to be relevant (and all available evidence says the KCMFRS is one of the *better* attacks, both in power and elemental matchup, to use against A3).



Darkmaiar said:


> by claiming that the manga itself disqualifies that notion



The manga claims it, actually.



Darkmaiar said:


> nd that that is rebuttal enough to discredit the argument, when that goes against the spirit of fandom debate (and is a questionable basis in the first place since the manga literally *can't* make definitive statements on A3 vs. the Sannin since such a contest never occurred nor were any actual comparisons made between A3 and the Sannin) is something I can't help but disagree with



This nonsensical word salad though 

I'm not talking about A3 vs the Sannin overall (fun fact, I actually think the Sannin win), I'm not even arguing whether or not they can injure A3.

I'm arguing against a very specific attempt to downplay the latter's durability based on nothing but bullshit headcanon.



Darkmaiar said:


> The entirety of this matchup is dependent on the analyses we make of the manga. For all that we all have our ingrained powerscales for the characters, many of them never interact and are never compared. And much the same for many jutsu. We are required to insert our own interpretations of characters and jutsus and how they interact in order for any of these debates to even occur



That's fine and well, but the problem is that you and your pals are literally arguing against the canon here. It's one thing to make reasoned arguments based on canon _and_ our own interpretations, it's another to put our interpretations _directly above the canon_.



Darkmaiar said:


> Is it not fair that I'm more convinced by @SakuraLover16 because they actually attempted to analyze and explain their perspective on A3's tanking feat



They didn't actually analyze or explain shit, to be quite frank. They just said "KCMFRS did cellular damage Nukite is a piercing attack" as if that answers _anything_ lmao.

Like, so what if KCMFRS does cellular level damage? How does _that_ make it intrinsically less dangerous than Nukite? 

It also disregards the fact that even the _regular_ Rasengan does more damage than Chidori to objects. Rasengan blew out a water tank when Chidori only dented it.

Unless you want to argue Rasengan > FRS (and fucking lol if you do), it's a no-brainer that FRS will pound-for-pound outdo an attack like Chidori unless the Chidori/Nukite is especially strong.

Also, that you're more convinced by someone who hasn't even provided a single scan to support their argument and keeps arguing with the narrative...doesn't say much for you either.



Darkmaiar said:


> and that I am _less_ convinced by yours because you've used the manga's very existence as your argument



No, I've used manga evidence as my argument.



Darkmaiar said:


> declaring that A3 tanking the Rasenshuriken is some immutable plateau  that no amount of analysis can call into question



Well, it literally fucking happened, so it actually _is_ an immutable plateau no amount of analysis can question 



Darkmaiar said:


> thereby rejecting the very notion of fandom debates



So, according to you, *not putting headcanon above canon* is the same as "rejecting the very notion of fandom debates"? 

Nice strawman 



Darkmaiar said:


> But I digress. I think I've made my point clear



Would imply you had a point 

Disagree though 



Darkmaiar said:


> Thankfully, I don't feel the need to be taken seriously in the current climate of the NBD, let alone that I even could be with the behaviors that have become the norm in the years since I've posted here. And that's all that I'll say on the matter.



No one cares 

Thank you for the lolz though


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

I'll dumb it down for you guys as much as I can 

You say KCMFRS did less damage to A3 than Nukite because "cellular damage". Now I would like you to provide _proof_ that's the case.

Like, why should we accept "cellular damage" somehow makes KCMFRS less effective against A3? Do you have any actual evidence? Canonical evidence? 

The ONLY evidence we have STRONGLY favors A3 tanking KCMFRS because he's a tank. Nothing more, nothing less. Naruto, Dodai, and the Databook all agree. 

Not once does Dodai, A3's bodyguard and closest confidante, ever suggest "piercing damage lel" as an answer to A3 - only Fuutons. A3 himself never does (and Nukite explicitly only killed him because it was that strong).

Never mind the fact y'all conveniently disregard the fact the FRS's "cellular damage" is also insane enough to cut through rocks, wreck the landscape, and ERASE human bodies (it's not the _same_ as literal poison, it just works in a similar way, and even then not entirely) 

When you make a positive statement, it's incumbent on you to provide proof for it. This is basic debating (inb4 you folks get offended by me explaining that fact).


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 29, 2022)

GrandBenja said:


> I believe most of these kids (basically the 15 - 25 age range) don't even realise they're being rude. It's not specifically on this forum; there's a generational problem. They genuinely believe their behaviour is normal - and indeed, the other kids don't even feel insulted when this kind of behaviour is aimed at them. It's their norm.
> 
> Back in my days (and yours, I assume), we were actively taught manners and politeness. If we dared to say a tenth of what these teenagers are saying here, or to show the slightest bit of disrespect to anyone, we were in for a beating.
> Those kids nowadays? I really wonder who raised them. (Although not all of them are like that, thankfully.)


To be clear, it's not my intent to besmirch an entire generation over behaviors displayed by anonymous figures in a debate forum (though I see your point).

To me, it's more a matter of losing sight of what's fun about fandom debates versus what's satisfying about winning online debates. My impression is genuinely that over 80% of active posters in the NBD are more interested in dunking on other posters than making real effort in analyzing and comparing characters. That effort still exists, certainly, but even then many of the posters I see capable of that effort use it in service of "dunking" other posters and belittling them, instead of trying to actually convince them.

This is a natural consequence of online forums, unfortunately, but it truly feels like it is way more prominent than it used to be, to the point of drowning out anyone more interested in civil discussion and debate.

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 29, 2022)

Oh, no one's interested in "dunking" on other posters (especially not you, don't flatter yourself, love). I'm just interested in having a fun but factual debate, and I will *never* apologize for calling out others if they make headcanon-based arguments


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

Also, I'm 26, frack off with this "young generation bad" nonsense - I'm responsible for my own actions, you boomer lites


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## GrandBenja (Jan 30, 2022)

Darkmaiar said:


> To me, it's more a matter of losing sight of what's fun about fandom debates versus what's satisfying about winning online debates. My impression is genuinely that over 80% of active posters in the NBD are more interested in dunking on other posters than making real effort in analyzing and comparing characters. That effort still exists, certainly, but even then many of the posters I see capable of that effort use it in service of "dunking" other posters and belittling them, instead of trying to actually convince them.


You're right. Look at them gloating about "winning" a debate. "Concession accepted", as if it were anything to be proud of. That's ridiculous.

The first purpose of such a forum should be to enjoy some good time talking about a story we like. Having fun, exchanging pleasantries, coming up with fun and / or serious theories, etc. The kind of stuff normal people would do during their break at the office, in order to get in a good mood before getting back to work.
I would feel I "won" a debate if whatever I said helped everyone leave with a smile and a better mood. Dunking another poster, as you put it, is hardly something I'd call a victory. It doesn't make anyone's day better.


Darkmaiar said:


> This is a natural consequence of online forums, unfortunately, but it truly feels like it is way more prominent than it used to be, to the point of drowning out anyone more interested in civil discussion and debate.


That's true as well. The anonymity of the Internet always encouraged behaviours you wouldn't see elsewhere. But it's indeed got worse these last years.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)




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## Darkmaiar (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> *Snip* Sorry, responding to spaghetti posts is exhausting and very time-consuming.


I'm honestly confused by this refutation.

None of what the manga says _directly_ contradicts the idea that @SakuraLover16 proposed. Yes, A3 functionally tanked the Rasenshuriken. Yes, this is an impressive feat. Yes, it's particularly impressive in light of Wind Style techniques having the elemental advantage over A3. These are all true.

Yet none of them actually say that A3 cannot be harmed by Wind Style attacks that are weaker than the Rasenshuriken. Nor does it refute the idea that despite the Rasenshuriken's power, it was ill-suited against A3 in particular because of how it induces damage.

In fact, both of those ideas are also supported by the manga.

Wind Styles attacks weaker than the Rasenshuriken do harm A3, significantly or not, showing that the elemental advantage is not held back by the power of the technique. (Dodai even mentioning that they are the best means of harming A3 suggest that they must have in the past to some extent, long before the Rasenshuriken existed.)

The Rasenshuriken's means of attack being a potential explanation for it failing to do more significant damage than other Wind Style techniques is most strongly supported by the manga itself! A3 is ultimately dealt the most damage by a technique with no elemental advantage but considered the strongest piercing attack there is. This directly correlates to the idea that an attack being done by piercing is more significant than an attack with an elemental advantage.

Whether you agree with this analysis or not, the manga does not directly refute these ideas.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Also, I'm 26, fuck off with this "young generation bad" nonsense


I did not actually say this. My point was only in the literal difference I perceive in general attitude between now and ~6 years ago in this forum. (Amusingly, a couple of days ago, someone reacted with a disagree to a post I made in 2015, which is just "Huh? Why?")

Reactions: Winner 2 | Lewd 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's not about what I like, it's about what the canon actually says. I know, you clearly have gotten that distinction twisted.
> 
> You can't even provide a _single_ scan to back up anything you said lmao.


Nice bait dude you can just as easily look up the scan you're questioning or reread the manga like you so called suggested I do earlier. Take your own advice.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, it being headcanon makes it headcanon.


Again you believing something as being headcannon does not mean that it's the case.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Cool.
> 
> The problem is you have _not_ proven that said differences were relevant in this case.
> 
> You also conveniently disregarded the fact FRS's differences canonically make it BETTER suited for harming A3 than Nukite, not WORSE.


FRS is canonically better suited against his lightning armor because lightning is weak to wind. So long range Futons countered his short range raitons. That being said lightning is better suited for piercing attacks. Take note of Chidori (similarly a lightning piercing attack) vs Ays lightning armor


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Projection much?
> 
> The manga literally says A3 tanked KCMFRS because he was too durable for it, and fell to Nukite because Nukite was too strong for his durability.
> 
> You're the one making up horseshit about how "b-but cellular damage!" somehow made KCMFRS less effective against A3 than a piercing attack (even though NOTHING in the manga supports this ass-backward theory you keep espousing).


I'm pretty sure I'm not the one projecting. Mind you Tsunade is the one who gives us an in verse explanation of what rasenshuriken does to the body information her and Sakura obtained by studying Kakazu's corpse. She's the one who makes the direct comparison of the effects of rasenshuriken being comparable to poison. The fact of the matter is Nukite had more energy focused to a single point than FRS did (FRS makes contact and then explodes) which is why Nukite was able to deliver a debilitating move.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Literally no part of that suggests Nukite would outperform FRS against any opponent (unless it's simply stronger or some elemental advantage exists).
> 
> Next?


What are you even talking about? We are specifically talking about why it did not work on A3 and Nukite does outperform Rasenshuriken in regards to piercing power even if Rasenshuriken has more energy behind it in total.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> A4 =/ A3, that's your first mistake.
> 
> Lmao at implying Chidori > FRS against durable opponents when even the basic Rasengan did _vastly_ more damage to a water tank and FRS >>>> Rasengan
> 
> Or is Rasengan > FRS now for you too


Umm no don't strawman me you know that wasn't an argument I made anywhere. You are also still ignoring the fact that regardless rasengan and chidori don't have similar jutsu effects.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Oh, I can swallow it.
> 
> The problem is that the manga calls bullshit on your theory in THIS situation.
> 
> Why else are you failing to provide


Literally anything that I have stated is supported by the manga.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Actually, it is.
> 
> Rasengan is straight up superior (or at worst equal) to Chidori against the same targets. The Rasengan ultimately did far greater damage to the water tank, not just "different" damage. Or did you think Sasuke got scared for no reason?


Chidori and rasengan are functionally different jutsu. You are basically comparing a hammer and a spear.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Very different.
> 
> You're arguing with the manga here.


Seems like you are based on the fact that in this very post you argued about information that we were provided by Tsunade who first handedly studied the effects rasenshuriken had on the human body.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Lewd 1


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## deltaniner (Jan 30, 2022)

Oh look, people are making headcanon to downplay A3's durability. What a surprise.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

Darkmaiar said:


> I'm honestly confused by this refutation



I, on the other hand, am honestly confused by your confusion.



Darkmaiar said:


> None of what the manga says _directly_ contradicts the idea that @SakuraLover16 proposed. Yes, A3 functionally tanked the Rasenshuriken. Yes, this is an impressive feat. Yes, it's particularly impressive in light of Wind Style techniques having the elemental advantage over A3. These are all true.



Cool.



Darkmaiar said:


> Yet none of them actually say that A3 cannot be harmed by Wind Style attacks that are weaker than the Rasenshuriken



Actually, they did.

Remember when Temari said her Fuutons and those of her allies weren't doing a thing to A3? 

An A3 who wasn't even Raiton cloaked?  



Darkmaiar said:


> Nor does it refute the idea that despite the Rasenshuriken's power, it was ill-suited against A3 in particular because of how it induces damage



Why _exactly_ is how it induces damage making it ill-suited against A3?

You never managed to answer that.



Darkmaiar said:


> In fact, both of those ideas are also supported by the manga



Proof? 



Darkmaiar said:


> Wind Styles attacks weaker than the Rasenshuriken do harm A3



Because A3 *didn't* have his cloak on then. You know, the cloak he...*DID* have on against Naruto? The cloak explicitly stated to buff his durability? 



Darkmaiar said:


> showing that the elemental advantage is not held back by the power of the technique. (Dodai even mentioning that they are the best means of harming A3 suggest that they must have in the past to some extent, long before the Rasenshuriken existed.)



And not once does Dodai, Naruto, or anyone suggest or imply KCMFRS failed because it was the wrong type of attack. 

Dodai merely stated the best strategy to use against A3, this does not mean Fuutons in the past were enough either (just better than anything else). Love how you skipped over the fact Dodai never suggested using "piercing attacks" against A3 instead  



Darkmaiar said:


> The Rasenshuriken's means of attack being a potential explanation for it failing to do more significant damage than other Wind Style techniques is most strongly supported by



Absolutely nothing.

A3 had his shield up against FRS. 

A3 didn't have his shield up against the other Fuutons. That's why he took less damage from FRS.

Simple as that.



Darkmaiar said:


> A3 is ultimately dealt the most damage by a technique with no elemental advantage but considered the strongest piercing attack there is. This directly correlates to the idea that an attack being done by piercing is more significant than an attack with an elemental advantage



No, this just means Nukite is *stronger* than A3's shield, as Dodai stated. That's a matter of *power*, not piercing bullshit.



Darkmaiar said:


> Whether you agree with this analysis or not, the manga does not directly refute these ideas



The manga _straight up says_ A3's spear was stronger than his shield, so you're wrong.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Nice bait dude you can just as easily look up the scan you're questioning or reread the manga like you so called suggested I do earlier. Take your own advice



Why should I look up evidence for _your_ arguments? You provide it, it's not my burden to prove your arguments 

I already provided countless scans, you have not even provided one 



SakuraLover16 said:


> Again you believing something as being headcannon does not mean that it's the case



Nice strawman.

The manga asserting you are wrong does mean your headcanon is, well, headcanon.



SakuraLover16 said:


> FRS is canonically better suited against his lightning armor because lightning is weak to wind. So long range Futons countered his short range raitons



Cool, so it's better against A3 than anything else. Concession accepted.



SakuraLover16 said:


> That being said lightning is better suited for piercing attacks. Take note of Chidori (similarly a lightning piercing attack) vs Ays lightning armor



So? 

If Raitons were better suited at hitting A4 through his armor, why did Dodai suggest using Fuutons and not Raitons instead? 



SakuraLover16 said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm not the one projecting. Mind you Tsunade is the one who gives us an in verse explanation of what rasenshuriken does to the body information her and Sakura obtained by studying Kakazu's corpse. She's the one who makes the direct comparison of the effects of rasenshuriken being comparable to poison



And? _No part of this_ makes FRS worse than Nukite at killing anyone 



SakuraLover16 said:


> The fact of the matter is Nukite had more energy focused to a single point than FRS did (FRS makes contact and then explodes) which is why Nukite was able to deliver a debilitating move.



Which could easily be attributed to the fact Nukite is canonically *stronger* than A3's shield (unlike KCMFRS). No need for your "different damage types" explanation. 

Occam's razor, my friend.



SakuraLover16 said:


> What are you even talking about? We are specifically talking about why it did not work on A3 and Nukite does outperform Rasenshuriken in regards to piercing power even if Rasenshuriken has more energy behind it in total.



Why would you assume FRS has more energy behind it in total than Nukite?

Nukite got through, FRS didn't.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Umm no don't strawman me you know that wasn't an argument I made anywhere. You are also still ignoring the fact that regardless rasengan and chidori don't have similar jutsu effects



Not ignoring that "fact", just not convinced it is relevant here 



SakuraLover16 said:


> Literally anything that I have stated is supported by the manga



Except for the idea A3 took less damage from KCMFRS because it was the "wrong" type of attack or took more damage from Nukite because it was the "right" type of attack.

The manga explicitly states Nukite killed A3 because it was even stronger than his shield, and his shield tanked KCMFRS because it was just that durable.

Stop trying to argue with canon.




SakuraLover16 said:


> Chidori and rasengan are functionally different jutsu. You are basically comparing a hammer and a spear.



Big deal 

Rasengan is still stronger (and FRS even more so) 



SakuraLover16 said:


> Seems like you are based on the fact that in this very post you argued about information that we were provided by Tsunade who first handedly studied the effects rasenshuriken had on the human body.



Bro, you keep arguing "b-but FRS does cellular damage Nukite does piercing damage!!!" as if it means anything 

I don't doubt they do different types of damage, I just realize that argument is irrelevant here (and doesn't even make sense in the first place)


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> Oh look, people are making headcanon to downplay A3's durability. What a surprise.



Yeah, it's unreal lmao. 

Not sure which is worse, the blatant peddling of headcanon or the attempts at smearing me as some ill-behaved person for not being all sunshine and daisies in my rebuttal


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

@ObitoOfTheOrangeMask Thoughts? This debate could really use a rapid injection (vaccine?) of common sense IMO

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 30, 2022)

I'm even more confused. Your argument essentially boils down to-


Aegon Targaryen said:


> The manga _straight up says_ A3's spear was stronger than his shield, so you're wrong.


-which... still doesn't contradict the idea that piercing is a significant factor in what's actually dangerous to A3.

All that's being offered is an explanation for _why_ the spear is stronger than shield. Namely, that it's piercing properties are what set it apart from other techniques and allow it to breach his armor.

Again, you may not agree with that, but absolutely nowhere does the manga directly reject that idea.

Like... my entire point was that @SakuraLover16 offered an analysis to explain why they thought that the mechanics of the Rasenshuriken hindered it's effectiveness when compared to the implication of _why_ the Nukite was extremely effective instead, despite not having the elemental advantage. 

The manga does not say that that cannot be true. It literally just doesn't. That also doesn't mean that the analysis is the only correct interpretation. But my disagreement with you was that you have used the manga as a bludgeon without explaining how what the manga says actually refutes the theory. 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> The manga _straight up says_ A3's spear was stronger than his shield, so you're wrong.


is purely and simply _not_ mutually exclusive with the theory.

I'm not arguing with what the manga says. I'm arguing that what the manga says does not immediately refute the theory. By its very nature, the manga offers no real commentary on the theory at all. Using the term "headcanon" as some boogie-man means very little when canon and headcanon do not inherently contradict each other.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

Darkmaiar said:


> I'm even more confused. Your argument essentially boils down to


 
Feats and portrayal  



Darkmaiar said:


> -which... still doesn't contradict the idea that piercing is a significant factor in what's actually dangerous to A3



Like, how many times do I have to tell you that you need to provide *evidence* for me to actually take that theory seriously?  

Until you do so, it's just headcanon  

And if this was true, why didn't Dodai or A3 or anyone else suggest using "piercing attacks" against A3 in the first place? 



Darkmaiar said:


> All that's being offered is an explanation for _why_ the spear is stronger than shield



Your explanation doesn't work, homes  

The spear isn't stronger than the shield because it's a "piercing attack", nowhere does the canon or the characters describing the fight ever insinuate that.



Darkmaiar said:


> Namely, that it's piercing properties are what set it apart from other techniques



This doesn't even make sense, unless you operate according to the line of thought piercing techniques > non-piercing techniques  

Which is demonstrably false btw  

We've seen that piercing techniques like Chidori have been *surpassed* in damage to targets by non-piercing attacks like Rasengan. Chidori only dented a water tank while Rasengan blew a massive hole in it that scared Sasuke to a great degree.

Overall, you have no leg to stand on here.



Darkmaiar said:


> Again, you may not agree with that, but absolutely nowhere does the manga directly reject that idea



The manga also doesn't provide _any_ support for it whatsoever. 

In other words, it's headcanon  

And again, a basic rule of debating is that what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without it too.



Darkmaiar said:


> Like... my entire point was that @SakuraLover16 offered an analysis to explain why they thought that the mechanics of the Rasenshuriken hindered it's effectiveness when compared to the implication of _why_ the Nukite was extremely effective instead, despite not having the elemental advantage.
> 
> The manga does not say that that cannot be true. It literally just doesn't



It also doesn't say it _can_ be true, and the only evidence it DOES provide makes it clear A3's durability is truly that insane.



Darkmaiar said:


> That also doesn't mean that the analysis is the only correct interpretation. But my disagreement with you was that you have used the manga as a bludgeon without explaining how what the manga says actually refutes the theory.
> 
> 
> is purely and simply _not_ mutually exclusive with the theory.
> ...



See above.



Darkmaiar said:


> Using the term "headcanon" as some boogie-man means very little when canon and headcanon do not inherently contradict each other.



No, but your specific use of headcanon contradicts canon. I literally said your problem is that you're putting headcanon _above_ the canon itself. 

If you cannot see why that's an awful debating practice, there is no hope for you.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

Like, this is debating 101.

If you want to make a positive statement (as SakuraLover16 did), you better back it up with evidence. Be it canon or basic logic, you do that.

Unfortunately, all they are doing is stonewalling and disregarding the aforementioned rule of debating.

To give you an idea of how bad your arguments are, I could have played SakuraLover's game.

I could have *easily* brought in how A3 fought a Bijuu (Gyuki) that was impressed by his durability and argued that A3 possibly survived the Bijuudama, which would make him impervious to the Sannin.

That's a FAR stronger attack than anything the Sannin have, and none of that "b-but cellular damage" nonsense applies there. He certainly took SOME attack from Gyuki, hence the durability hype from the latter.

You know why I _didn't_ do so?

It's because I truthfully do NOT know (and the canon never actually says) if A3 took a Bijuudama head-on. I choose to argue *based on facts*, and Nukite >>> A3 >>> KCMFRS is a fact.

The irony is I probably have MORE narrative evidence for A3 being Bijuudama-prood than you do for "cellular damage bad against A3", but even then, I realize it's still weak at best and negligible at worst.


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## Monarch (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask Thoughts? This debate could really use a rapid injection (vaccine?) of common sense IMO



I don't have much to add.

Apart from the fact that A3's durability is significantly downplayed on this thread.

No other wind tech stronger than FRS was available at that time, and mind you, it was amped by Kurama's chakra, and a weaker FRS inflicted sizeable damage to 50% Kurama, something most people completely ignore on this thread while conviniently adding complicated details that really don't hold any merit or relevance.

The manga tells us that even Fuuton attacks which are at least on par or above what's capable of damaging 50% Kurama are outright useless against this guy.

What cellular and piercing damage? Aren't those microscopic blades that cause cellular damage not "piercing attacks" too? That cover an astronomically smaller surface area compared to Nukite? Aren't they propelled with a massive amount of force to their target due to the FRS's powerful explosion? And on top of that having an elemental advantage?

If anything, FRS packs even more piercing prowess than Nukite, not the other way around.

And to put the cherry on top, there isn't any evidence to support the idea that somehow if you multiplied the force of all those blades and applied it onto a single spot the FRS would have succeeded. For all we know, Nukite could still pack significantly more power than that anyway.

Why do people insist on weaker attacks being capable of harming him is beyond me, when the strongest Fuuton attack capable of knocking down Kurama flat on his ass that hit him was verbatim stated to be useless. 

The final conclusion is simple, Nukite >>> A3's RnY >> FRS. And no attack weaker than Nukite will bypass his cloak.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## J★J♥ (Jan 30, 2022)

A3 failed to even catch up to Dodai who even in his prime was not anywhere near Sannin.
He's not touching any of them.
Summons and versatile Ninjutsu counter him completely.


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> And if this was true, why didn't Dodai or A3 or anyone else suggest using "piercing attacks" against A3 in the first place?


How would Dodai know? And A3 was embarrassed. The manga directly tells us this.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> The spear isn't stronger than the shield because it's a "piercing attack", nowhere does the canon or the characters describing the fight ever insinuate that.


This literally isn't a refutation. How in the world would this debate forum even exist if we're required to have the manga tell us the right answer in order for it to be an acceptable theory? The manga doesn't tell us a lot of things. That's why we analyze and theorize. I never said that it was the only possible explanation, only that the manga doesn't refute it.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> This doesn't even make sense, unless you operate according to the line of thought piercing techniques > non-piercing techniques


Or that different attacks with different mechanics might have different effectiveness versus different people. Which is like the bread and butter of Naruto. And real life, for that matter.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> The manga also doesn't provide _any_ support for it whatsoever.
> 
> In other words, it's headcanon
> 
> ...


Do you not understand my argument? It's literally that _the manga_ does not inherently contradict the theory. That doesn't mean it's right. That doesn't mean that you can't dismiss it. It's just that the manga itself does not contradict the theory.

Both what the manga says and the theory can be true.

I'm not sure how else to explain it.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, but your specific use of headcanon contradicts canon. I literally said your problem is that you're putting headcanon _above_ the canon itself.
> 
> If you cannot see why that's an awful debating practice, there is no hope for you.


Where does the theory supersede canon? The theory simply expands upon canon to provide reasoning for the proposed argument. Again, both the events of canon and the theory can be true. 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Like, this is debating 101.
> 
> If you want to make a positive statement (as SakuraLover16 did), you better back it up with evidence. Be it canon or basic logic, you do that.
> 
> Unfortunately, all they are doing is stonewalling and disregarding the aforementioned rule of debating.


The problem is that you are loudly proclaiming that "canon exists!" as if that is in and of itself is a refutation of the theory, even though canon does not contradict the theory or even comment on it. 

The theory is clearly based off of canon and then basic logic deductions of how techniques work. That doesn't mean it's correct. You can obviously argue for why you think it isn't. But I honestly can't fathom why your argument is just shouting what the manga tells us, when what the manga tells us does not contradict the theory. Your interpretation of the manga might but not the manga itself. I'm seriously confused by this line of reasoning.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Why should I look up evidence for _your_ arguments? You provide it, it's not my burden to prove your arguments
> 
> I already provided countless scans, you have not even provided one


Provide scans for what? First I'm not looking for 15 different scans on my cell phone. Second I'm not searching for the same scans that you scrolled past to find your specific raikage ones. Third you haven't even proved a lot of what I said wrong.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nice strawman.
> 
> The manga asserting you are wrong does mean your headcanon is, well, headcanon.


Except the manga doesn't assert that I am wrong anywhere.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Cool, so it's better against A3 than anything else. Concession accepted


No wind is a strong counteragainst a lightning based opponent. That's all I basically said no more no less.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> So?
> 
> If Raitons were better suited at hitting A4 through his armor, why did Dodai suggest using Fuutons and not Raitons instead?


Wind inherently counters lightning that doesn't mean other ninjutsu doesn't work. 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> And? _No part of this_ makes FRS worse than Nukite at killing anyone


In the context of A3 himself it does because hes obviously special as far as durability goes) not like A3 is just anyone to begin with. 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Which could easily be attributed to the fact Nukite is canonically *stronger* than A3's shield (unlike KCMFRS). No need


Different jutsus have different effects that's the most basic of facts.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Why would you assume FRS has more energy behind it in total than Nukite?
> 
> Nukite got through, FRS didn't.


Nukite has more energy gathered at a specific point than FRS does. It piercing his shield doesn't mean it has more energy. It means it has more energy in one point. That's why it's easier to stab a hole through someone instead of punching a hole through them


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not ignoring that "fact", just not convinced it is relevant here


Well it was so...


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Except for the idea A3 took less damage from KCMFRS because it was the "wrong" type of attack or took more damage from Nukite because it was the "right" type of attack.
> 
> The manga explicitly states Nukite killed A3 because it was even stronger than his shield, and his shield tanked KCMFRS because it was just that durable.
> 
> Stop trying to argue with canon.


I don't see in any way how I've argued against canon here other than just your say so which means absolutely nothing.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Big deal
> 
> Rasengan is still stronger (and FRS even more so)


I'm not too interested in what you feel is stronger.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Bro, you keep arguing "b-but FRS does cellular damage Nukite does piercing damage!!!" as if it means anything
> 
> I don't doubt they do different types of damage, I just realize that argument is irrelevant here (and doesn't even make sense in the first place)


The fact that they do two different types of damage means there must be some relevance because each jutsu goes about killing the opponent in different ways. I'm sorry that you don't want to acknowledge that there are differences.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

Darkmaiar said:


> How would Dodai know?



Why wouldn't he know? He's A3's trusted advisor, he knows more about A3 than anyone else (his son aside).



Darkmaiar said:


> And A3 was embarrassed. The manga directly tells us this



Yes, and? A3 is already dead and literally trying to _help_ his enemies take him down.



Darkmaiar said:


> This literally isn't a refutation



This literally is. 



Darkmaiar said:


> How in the world would this debate forum even exist if we're required to have the manga tell us the right answer in order for it to be an acceptable theory?



This may sound harsh, but if you think we should disregard the manga or canon like Databooks while deeming a theory "acceptable", that's not really a good argument for the existence of this forum. 



Darkmaiar said:


> The manga doesn't tell us a lot of things. That's why we analyze and theorize



True, but when the manga _does_ tell you something, you shouldn't argue with it.



Darkmaiar said:


> I never said that it was the only possible explanation, only that the manga doesn't refute it



It also doesn't _prove_ it either, something I have kept telling you. It is incumbent on you and your friends who made the positive statement to provide proof.

Thus far, I have seen none. In fact, the manga arguably _does_ refute it as @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said. Damaging someone at the cellular level is a MUCH deeper (and more penetrative) level of damage than a more normal stab lmao.



Darkmaiar said:


> Or that different attacks with different mechanics might have different effectiveness versus different people. Which is like the bread and butter of Naruto



It isn't the bread and butter of Naruto at all, actually. Even if it was, you have yet to prove it still applies in this specific case. 



Darkmaiar said:


> And real life, for that matter



Proof?  



Darkmaiar said:


> Do you not understand my argument? It's literally that _the manga_ does not inherently contradict the theory. That doesn't mean it's right. That doesn't mean that you can't dismiss it. It's just that the manga itself does not contradict the theory



Cool, but the fact remains - you have no evidence for it (and all evidence pertinent to the matter _contradicts_ your stance, your stance basically being that A3 isn't that durable), and thus you should stop passing it around as fact, which SakuraLover16 was doing.



Darkmaiar said:


> Both what the manga says and the theory can be true.
> 
> I'm not sure how else to explain it



True, but _nothing_ implies the theory _is_ true (or even *relevant* even if it was true).



Darkmaiar said:


> Where does the theory supersede canon?



You and SakuraLover16 arguing with zero evidence that KCMFRS was the wrong type of attack to use against A3 when nothing in canon supports this and canon instead treats this ENTIRELY as a feat for A3.  

You and SakuraLover16 arguing with zero evidence that Nukite isn't more powerful than KCMFRS when one is directly stated to be stronger than the shield and the other stated to be useless against it.



Darkmaiar said:


> The problem is that you are loudly proclaiming that "canon exists!" as if that is in and of itself is a refutation of the theory, even though canon does not contradict the theory or even comment on it



Nice strawman  

I'm not loudly proclaiming canon exists, I'm loudly reminding you to remember that canon doesn't support a thing you've said for you to act like it's all factual  



Darkmaiar said:


> The theory is clearly based off of canon



Except it isn't. Not once does canon say or even imply KCMFRS was the "wrong" type of jutsu to use on A3, and neither does either make excuses for Nukite either.



Darkmaiar said:


> basic logic deductions of how techniques work



Nothing logical about it, actually.

The mere fact you're trying to argue a more penetrative and precise attack (FRS) is less piercing than a less penetrative and precise attack (Nukite) shows you're arguing against logic here  



Darkmaiar said:


> That doesn't mean it's correct. You can obviously argue for why you think it isn't. But I honestly can't fathom why your argument is just shouting what the manga tells us, when what the manga tells us does not contradict the theory. Your interpretation of the manga might but not the manga itself. I'm seriously confused by this line of reasoning.



Given that you're confused by basic facts and don't understand how burden of proof works, maybe that's a you problem too.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 30, 2022)

Here's where I'm coming from, essentially:

We have a simple A -> B -> C scenario.

A.) A3 is noted to have a weakness to long range Wind Style techniques.
B.) Naruto uses the Rasenshuriken to little effect against A3, despite the weakness noted in point A.
C.) A3 is defeated through the use of his Nukite on himself, despite not having an elemental weakness to it.

In one line of reasoning, the conclusion is Nukite >>>>> A3 >>>>> Rasenshuriken. A simple A>B>C analysis that the Nukite is just flatly more powerful than the Rasenshuriken. This is a valid line of reasoning, though largely ignores that Nukite and the Rasenshuriken are vastly different techniques with vastly different effects.

In another line of reasoning, the conclusion is colored by the idea that it's notable that the Nukite outperformed the Rasenshuriken despite the latter being expressly stated to have an advantage over A3. And the reason for that might be that the means of attack (i.e. piercing) is more significant than the elemental advantage/explosive power. This is also a valid line of reasoning, though requires more stringent argumentation for why this is more likely.

But the key here is that the only thing the manga states is points A, B, and C, with the conclusion that "the spear was stronger than the shield" (which is entirely ambiguous in regards to the Rasenshuriken's relationship to A3).  Anything beyond that is a reader analysis to translate those points into powerscaling.

Which is why I'm so confused that the points themselves are being used as the argument. They make no comment on the theory (which is line of reasoning #2) and clearly do not contradict it, since the theory _requires_ those points to even exist.

Edit:
There is absolutely nothing that suggests the Rasenshuriken is a better "penetrative" technique than the Nukite. This is wildly out of line with how it's treated in the story and needs a lot more evidence than just "I say so, therefore it is." Notably, the very concept of penetration is heavily effected by the scale things are operating at.

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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

It's honestly 





Darkmaiar said:


> Here's where I'm coming from, essentially:
> 
> We have a simple A -> B -> C scenario.
> 
> ...


This is why it's honestly not worth conversating over. He's not even attacking the theory itself. He's basically just saying that I'm wrong despite there being no contradiction to anything that the manga has said which is the most frustrating part. 

No one has argued that Ay isn't durable just that FRS isn't the minimum required to damage Ay which is supported by the manga.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jan 30, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> Do we know for certain that his raiton shroud would deactivate if hit with Oro’s poison tho?


If being poisoned doesn’t directly deactivate it, when A3 stumbles he will be incapable of defending himself from wind attacks that can blow the armor off.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Provide scans for what?



Your argument.



SakuraLover16 said:


> First I'm not looking for 15 different scans on my cell phone



So you _won't_ provide evidence. Gotcha.

No one asked for 15 either, love how you're acting like providing proof is an unreasonable concept in a debate  



SakuraLover16 said:


> Second I'm not searching for the same scans that you scrolled past to find your specific raikage ones



Wdym by this?



SakuraLover16 said:


> Third you haven't even proved a lot of what I said wrong



True, just all of it  



SakuraLover16 said:


> Except the manga doesn't assert that I am wrong anywhere



It does though  

Even at best, it never asserts you are right, and you failed to provide any evidence or logic supporting you being right.



SakuraLover16 said:


> No wind is a strong counteragainst a lightning based opponent. That's all I basically said no more no less



No, you also said piercing attacks will somehow affect A3 more than wind attacks will (irrespective of power). 

Or implied it, at best.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Wind inherently counters lightning that doesn't mean other ninjutsu doesn't work



Cool, no one said otherwise. 

The fact remains Fuutons are still the best attack against him and nothing else from the Alliance comes close with that in mind  



SakuraLover16 said:


> Different jutsus have different effects that's the most basic of facts



Not really, no. It's usually specified when different jutsu have different effects. "Split durability" is not canonically a thing in Naruto, at least not to any real degree.

The fact of the matter is that you have not proven that this "different jutsu different effects" argument applies here. At all.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Nukite has more energy gathered at a specific point than FRS does



You serious?  

FRS attacks A3 at the cellular level, at a FAR deeper and more specific point than Nukite does  

FRS is by definition more penetrative  



SakuraLover16 said:


> It piercing his shield doesn't mean it has more energy



It does. It literally does.  

It's outright stated to be _stronger_. 

Not the right type of attack, just _stronger_.




SakuraLover16 said:


> Well it was so...



Wasn't. 



SakuraLover16 said:


> I don't see in any way how I've argued against canon here other than just your say so which means absolutely nothing



Of course you don't  

You can't even tell where canon ends and your headcanon begins  



SakuraLover16 said:


> I'm not too interested in what you feel is stronger



Don't be. You should be interested in what the manga says is stronger  




SakuraLover16 said:


> The fact that they do two different types of damage



Actually, I have to ask. What different types of damage and why does it matter? 

Rasengan is straight up more _destructive_ than Chidori. FRS >>>> Rasengan.

Sasuke was awed by seeing Rasengan because it did "different" type of damage, he was awed by it because it was STRONGER than Chidori and made him realize he needed more power.



SakuraLover16 said:


> means there must be some relevance because each jutsu goes about killing the opponent in different ways



"Must be"? According to what?  

Is that why this difference is NEVER acknowledged in the manga or the Databook as noteworthy?  

Is that why this excuse doesn't come up at any time pertaining to A3 in the actual canon even once, even implied?  

Rasengan is different from Chidori because Naruto needs his own jutsu, that doesn't mean his jutsu is radically different in effect though 



SakuraLover16 said:


> I'm sorry that you don't want to acknowledge that there are differences.



I'm sorry that you don't want to acknowledge your complete lack of evidence these differences, even if they exist, actually were relevant to any degree.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

Darkmaiar said:


> Here's where I'm coming from, essentially:
> 
> We have a simple A -> B -> C scenario.
> 
> A.) A3 is noted to have a weakness to long range Wind Style techniques





Darkmaiar said:


> B.) Naruto uses the Rasenshuriken to little effect against A3, despite the weakness noted in point A



A weakness =/ that weakness being easily exploited. Love how you keep leaving out the fact Temari and company's Fuutons were FAILING against an *uncloaked* A3, while FRS failed against *cloaked* A3 



Darkmaiar said:


> C.) A3 is defeated through the use of his Nukite on himself, despite not having an elemental weakness to it.
> 
> In one line of reasoning, the conclusion is Nukite >>>>> A3 >>>>> Rasenshuriken. A simple A>B>C analysis that the Nukite is just flatly more powerful than the Rasenshuriken. This is a valid line of reasoning



Good. 



Darkmaiar said:


> though largely ignores that Nukite and the Rasenshuriken are vastly different techniques with vastly different effects



Because the manga and Databook never implied these "vast differences" mattered. 

In fact, nothing does. Only you and Sakura are trying to argue this nonexistent point.

Trying to argue "split durability" when such a thing is *never decisively even implied in the actual manga* is foolish.



Darkmaiar said:


> In another line of reasoning, the conclusion is colored by the idea that it's notable that the Nukite outperformed the Rasenshuriken despite the latter being expressly stated to have an advantage over A3. And the reason for that might be that the means of attack (i.e. piercing) is more significant than the elemental advantage/explosive power. This is also a valid line of reasoning, though requires more stringent argumentation for why this is more likely.
> 
> But the key here is that the only thing the manga states is points A, B, and C, with the conclusion that "the spear was stronger than the shield" (which is entirely ambiguous in regards to the Rasenshuriken's relationship to A3).


 
FRS is outright stated to have had no effect on A3, so no ambiguity at all.

Nukite is just far stronger.



Darkmaiar said:


> Anything beyond that is a reader analysis to translate those points into powerscaling



No, it's common sense. It also holds true to Occam's razor, which states the simplest explanation is the truest. 



Darkmaiar said:


> Which is why I'm so confused that the points themselves are being used as the argument. They make no comment on the theory (which is line of reasoning #2) and clearly do not contradict it, since the theory _requires_ those points to even exist.
> 
> Edit:





Darkmaiar said:


> There is absolutely nothing that suggests the Rasenshuriken is a better "penetrative" technique than the Nukite



Targeting and attacking someone at the cellular level (a MUCH smaller area) by definition makes it more "penetrative", actually. That's what penetration means.



Darkmaiar said:


> This is wildly out of line with how it's treated in the story



...The story that literally says FRS affects people on the cellular level akin to a poison? In other words, a super-pene



Darkmaiar said:


> and needs a lot more evidence than just "I say so, therefore it is."



This is hilariously ironic, given that's literally the line of reasoning SakuraLover and you are using to justify Nukite damaging A3  



Darkmaiar said:


> Notably, the very concept of penetration is heavily effected by the scale things are operating at.



This statement makes no sense.  




Penetration refers to the access of passing through or *into* something. FRS directly attacks the cells of the human body where they are (so it goes *much deeper into *the human body), Nukite does not. 

Therefore, FRS is more penetrative. 

Simple as that.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

I'm not even going to address everything because I've done it to death already but I will say this.

If FRS attacks at the cellular level in almost a needle like fashion and the Raikage's very cells are as hard as iron then what form of damage are you expecting to be accomplished? You are using Chakra as thin as a needle to attack something as hard as iron. Versus attacking a small spot that has more chakra directed to it while still being small. I don't understand how that is so hard to understand.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I'm not even going to address everything because I've done it to death already



You mean you stonewalled.



SakuraLover16 said:


> but I will say this.
> 
> If FRS attacks at the cellular level in almost a needle like fashion and the Raikage's very cells are as hard as iron then what form of damage are you expecting to be accomplished?



This doesn't even make sense as a question lmao. All that matters is if the needles are strong enough.

It's also not like trying to straight up spear a guy whose body is as hard as iron is exactly easy either 



SakuraLover16 said:


> You are using Chakra as thin as a needle



Thin =/ weak. That's *KCM chakra* and the needles themselves are fired at enough force to ravage the surroundings.

Nice try though 



SakuraLover16 said:


> Versus attacking a small spot that has more chakra directed to it while still being small



Yeah, this doesn't even make sense. It ignores the fact using Nukite on A3 AND using KCMFRS will both go through iron-hard cells, though only one will _directly_ target them (the FRS). It also ignores the fact FRS is more penetrative than Nukite as it goes deeper into him. 

So, it seems like you'll have to go back on your "A3 weak to piercing attacks" argument.



SakuraLover16 said:


> I don't understand how that is so hard to understand.



Maybe because your argument makes no sense

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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

@WorldsStrongest @Mar55 Thoughts about the argument?  

The A3 downplay going strong


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

*SakuraLover16*: Penetrative attacks > non-penetrative attacks

Also *SakuraLover16*: B-but they're just needles (that target you at the deepest parts of your body) how can they do any damage? 

And, yes, @Beyonce, feel free to disagree some more, I see you

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> You mean you stonewalled.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



After travelling a certain distance or colliding with a target that it can't slice through, the central sphere of the Rasenshuriken detonates, producing a vortex of wind in the immediate area. Within this vortex, countless microscopic wind blades are created, so many that even the Sharingan can't count them all.[11] The wind blades pierce every cell in the body, disconnecting them from the Chakra circulatory system and so preventing them from providing their physical energy to the chakra-creation process. Because of this, the target loses their ability to create and mould chakra, damage which cannot be healed by medical ninjutsu.[12]

This pretty much further leans into my theory. It attacks more area than Nukite does but Nukite does one specific point with way more energy. Countless blades are produce but that doesn't mean those small blades get past his durability as well as Nukite did.  The fact is this was pretty much made to gimp normal people not Edo zombies .

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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> After travelling a certain distance or colliding with a target that it can't slice through, the central sphere of the Rasenshuriken detonates, producing a vortex of wind in the immediate area. Within this vortex, countless microscopic wind blades are created, so many that even the Sharingan can't count them all.[11] The wind blades pierce every cell in the body, disconnecting them from the Chakra circulatory system and so preventing them from providing their physical energy to the chakra-creation process. Because of this, the target loses their ability to create and mould chakra, damage which cannot be healed by medical ninjutsu.[12]



Cool, and?  



SakuraLover16 said:


> This pretty much further leans into my theory. It attacks more area than Nukite does



Define "more". 

Nukite went through A3's entire chest, FRS damaged him on a _microscopic_ level. 



SakuraLover16 said:


> but Nukite does one specific point with way more energy. Countless blades are produce but that doesn't mean those small blades get past his durability as well as Nukite did.



And none of that proves FRS was the wrong type of attack over Nukite either.



SakuraLover16 said:


> The fact is this was pretty much made to gimp normal people not Edo zombies .



This makes absolutely no sense, given that Edo zombies CAN be affected by poison (see: Hanzo) and anti-regen techniques (see: Naruto's Planetary Rasengan keeping Muu down for multiple chapters).

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

In fact, now you guys are literally going for the old Shazam excuse (A3 tanked KCMFRS because he was an Edo) 

Even though Kishi literally two chapters later shows Rasengan SUCCEEDING in keeping Edo Muu down for a long time AND showed poison neutralizing Edo Hanzo earlier on the WA  

I'd argue this is even worse than your original argument

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Because the manga and Databook never implied these "vast differences" mattered.
> 
> In fact, nothing does. Only you and Sakura are trying to argue this nonexistent point.
> 
> ...


There is zero commentary by the manga on the comparison between Nukite and the Rasenshuriken. Anything we say about the two is our conjecture of what we see. Nukite performs better against A3. Nukite is also an entirely different technique with a clearly separate means of affecting damage to a target.

I don't have to entertain the notion that your preference for the former point overrides anyone else's preference for the latter.

Since the manga doesn't say one way or another (which would have been easy with just showing A3 Nukite directly into a Rasenshuriken), there's nothing that really supports the idea that Nukite is vastly stronger than the Rasenshuriken than just your opinion.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, it's common sense. It also holds true to Occam's razor, which states the simplest explanation is the truest.


The point is that it is still an interpretation, whether you believe it to be common sense or not. And one could easily argue that outright ignoring the fact that the two attacks affect damage in completely different ways (an important point in any analysis) makes it a cherry-picked conclusion versus the simplest one.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> This is hilariously ironic, given that's literally the line of reasoning SakuraLover and you are using to justify Nukite damaging A3


The Nukite is literally described as a penetrative technique. And the theory only stipulates that it's a plausible reason for it's effectiveness, not that it just is because someone says so.

All I'll say for the absurd idea that the Rasenshuriken is more penetrative is this:

Needles are penetrative. Anti-armor tank shells are also penetrative. They do not translate the same amount of damage, regardless of whether one is more or less penetrative by the dictionary definition.

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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nukite went through A3's entire chest, FRS damaged him on a _microscopic_ level.


Except even on a microscopic level his cells are iron. The size doesn't matter if the force and power aren't enough to deal heavy injuries.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> And none of that proves FRS was the wrong type of attack over Nukite either.


It does. I can dump thousands of microscopic needs on the hood of my car from the roof and see maybe a little bit of damage but it would be nothing compared to me jumping from the roof with my knife in hand and using my bodyweight drive a knife into the hood of my car. Which one do you think would have the deeper damage.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> This makes absolutely no sense, given that Edo zombies CAN be affected by poison (see: Hanzo) and anti-regen techniques (see: Naruto's Planetary Rasengan keeping Muu down for multiple chapters).


Edos have also shrugged off injuries that normal people wouldn't survive as well. Example being Tobirama carrying on while missing a large part of his body.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

Darkmaiar said:


> There is zero commentary by the manga on the comparison between Nukite and the Rasenshuriken



False. 

The manga says FRS failed against A3 because it wasn't strong enough but Nukite succeeded by virtue of being stronger. Ergo, Nukite > FRS. 



Darkmaiar said:


> Anything we say about the two is our conjecture of what we see



Speak for yourself (and your fellow Sannin stans), but not for everyone  



Darkmaiar said:


> Nukite performs better against A3. Nukite is also an entirely different technique with a clearly separate means of affecting damage to a target



Now I would like you to prove that "clearly separate" means mattered. 



Darkmaiar said:


> I don't have to entertain the notion that your preference for the former point overrides anyone else's preference for the latter



It's not about preference, troll. 

It's about adherence to the canon. 



Darkmaiar said:


> Since the manga doesn't say one way or another



Lies. The manga straight up said FRS had no effect on A3 by virtue of his bulk, while the manga straight up said Nukite was stronger than A3's bulk  



Darkmaiar said:


> (which would have been easy with just showing A3 Nukite directly into a Rasenshuriken), there's nothing that really supports the idea that Nukite is vastly stronger than the Rasenshuriken than just your opinion



*FRS*: Fails against A3 in spite of being portrayed as his logical weakness and has Naruto explicitly admit it was useless against A3 by virtue of his durability 

*Nukite*: Succeeds against A3 and is called stronger 

DarkMaiar: nOthIng tHat rEalLy sUpPorTs iDea nUkitE > fRS  

Fuck me, this is a new low of reading comprehension  



Darkmaiar said:


> The point is that it is still an interpretation



No, it's just comprehension.



Darkmaiar said:


> And one could easily argue that outright ignoring the fact that the two attacks affect damage in completely different ways (an important point in any analysis) makes it a cherry-picked conclusion versus the simplest one



The simplest explanation is the one that goes by all available evidence and logic instead of including things never implied to be relevant, so no, mine is simpler. 



Darkmaiar said:


> The Nukite is literally described as a penetrative technique



And the FRS is literally described as a highly concentrated technique that attacks at the cellular level (unlike Nukite). Troll. 



Darkmaiar said:


> And the theory only stipulates that it's a plausible reason for it's effectiveness, not that it just is because someone says so



Wrong. You are literally treating it as a statement of fact  



Darkmaiar said:


> All I'll say for the absurd idea that the Rasenshuriken is more penetrative



So according to you, attacking someone at the cellular level isn't more penetrative than attacking someone only skin, muscle, and bone deep?  



Darkmaiar said:


> Needles are penetrative



Yes, concession accepted  



Darkmaiar said:


> Anti-armor tank shells are also penetrative



Cool, doesn't change the fact FRS is more penetrative than Nukite though  

Regular needles don't pierce people at the cellular level (much less hard enough to ravage the battlefield), troll  



Darkmaiar said:


> They do not translate the same amount of damage, regardless of whether one is more less penetrative by the dictionary definition.



So, just as I called it...you're now walking back your words  

Concession accepted.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Beyonce (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> *SakuraLover16*: Penetrative attacks > non-penetrative attacks
> 
> Also *SakuraLover16*: B-but they're just needles (that target you at the deepest parts of your body) how can they do any damage?
> 
> And, yes, @Beyonce, feel free to disagree some more, I see you


You’re making terrible arguments so I’ll continue disagreeing

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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

Darkmaiar said:


> Needles are penetrative. Anti-armor tank shells are also penetrative. They do not translate the same amount of damage, regardless of whether one is more or less penetrative by the dictionary definition.


That is honestly the best way of explaining it. Very clear and concise.


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## Djyc21215 (Jan 30, 2022)

A3 Took on 10,000 Shinobi at once and fought to a draw with the freaking HACHIBI, while the Sannin each maxed out at a KN4 Naruto. The Sanin don't have a chance in hell of winning this.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> So according to you, attacking someone at the cellular level isn't more penetrative than attacking someone only skin, muscle, and bone deep?


You are still technically attacking at the cellular level because you are still cutting through skin cells, muscle cells, bone cells,etc.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Except even on a microscopic level his cells are iron
> 
> 
> SakuraLover16 said:
> ...



Again...so what?  

You're trying to argue this makes the microscopic level attack less useful than the non-microscopic level one, but this is not proof of that. 

Either way, it's a more penetrative attack than Nukite, and if it fails to do damage, that just proves my point  



SakuraLover16 said:


> It does. I can dump thousands of microscopic needs on the hood of my car from the roof and see maybe a little bit of damage but it would be nothing compared to me jumping from the roof with my knife in hand and using my bodyweight drive a knife into the hood of my car. Which one do you think would have the deeper damage



Horrible comparison  

Those thousands of microscopic needles are being fired with enough force to ravage the fucking battlefield, bro, they're not the equivalent of you just weakly dropping some needles from the sky  



SakuraLover16 said:


> Edos have also shrugged off injuries that normal people wouldn't survive as well



No, they have not. 

Edo A3 was fodder seal material after eating his own Nukite. Edo Zabuza and Haku stopped functioning after being Raikired. The vast VAST majority of Edos were weakened by those injuries, at least long enough to be sealed  



SakuraLover16 said:


> Example being Tobirama carrying on while missing a large part of his body



Tobirama...Senju? 

You mean the guy from a clan literally prized for inheriting Hagoromo's lifeforce?  

That's not "cellular level damage" anyway so not sure how you think that helps your case


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## Beyonce (Jan 30, 2022)

Djyc21215 said:


> A3 Took on 10,000 Shinobi at once and fought to a draw with the freaking HACHIBI, while the Sannin each maxed out at a KN4 Naruto. The Sanin don't have a chance in hell of winning this.


Armless Orochimaru maxed out at KN4 and Jiraiya wasn’t going all out and had to subdue naruto. Tsunade never fought KN4. what are you talking about


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> You are still technically attacking at the cellular level because you are still cutting through skin cells, muscle cells, bone cells,etc.



But that's different from *directly targeting and bombarding them* _at_ the cellular level  

You do realize that, right?


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 30, 2022)

Alright. That's enough of that. I stand by my arguments. Agree or disagree.

The schoolyard name-calling, accusations, and insults to intelligence aren't worth engaging.

For the first debate I've had on here in over 6 years, it could've been worse. I appreciate your time, everyone.

Reactions: Like 3 | Friendly 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

My goodness, the way people are arguing about FRS, you'd think it's some weak ass attack that should never have been invented and is inferior to basic kunai  

Just lol at SakuraLover unironically arguing normal needles =/ chakra needles systematically fired at every cell with enough force to devastate the surroundings and threaten to blow people away  

And lol at "technically Nukite does cellular damage" too, even though there's a massive difference between TARGETING every cell in the body and merely getting through conglomerates of them without any further focus


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

Darkmaiar said:


> Alright. That's enough of that. I stand by my arguments



And you are free to fall by them too 



Darkmaiar said:


> Agree or disagree.
> 
> The schoolyard name-calling, accusations, and insults to intelligence aren't worth engaging.
> 
> For the first debate I've had on here in over 6 years, it could've been worse. I appreciate your time, everyone.



Quite frankly, I have to ask.

_What_ name-calling?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

Also love how the first person to actually indulge in flaming is from the Sannin side, and not one minute after someone spoke about name-calling being bad  

Never mind the fact the first truly hostile statement was "pull your head out of your ass", which IMO is definitely offensive unlike "reread the manga and don't make excuses" (which isn't even an attack on the debater, just their debating).


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## Darkmaiar (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Quite frankly, I have to ask.
> 
> _What_ name-calling?


For clarity's sake, since you asked:


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Speak for *yourself (and your fellow Sannin stans)*, but not for everyone


A weird one, I'll admit, since I don't think I ever said anything positive (or anything all, really) about any of the Sannin.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's not about preference, *troll*.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Regular needles don't pierce people at the cellular level (much less hard enough to ravage the battlefield), *troll *


This just cheapens the word for when it's actually accurate to the way someone behaves.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

Darkmaiar said:


> For clarity's sake, since you asked:A weird one, I'll admit, since I don't think I ever said anything positive (or anything all, really) about any of the Sannin



"Stan" isn't really an insult and in any case, it seemed appropriate given you are on the Sannin side of the equation here.

Neither is "troll". 

I can see why you would think otherwise. 

If someone truly misbehaves, I would report them. If not, light words like this seem fine to me

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

Also, although this isn't exactly name-calling, the first truly hostile statement (get your head out of your ass) came from SakuraLover. Tbh I don't even care they said that to me, I just find the double standards about offense hilarious


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Again...so what?
> 
> You're trying to argue this makes the microscopic level attack less useful than the non-microscopic level one, but this is not proof of that.
> 
> Either way, it's a more penetrative attack than Nukite, and if it fails to do damage, that just proves my point


You are a combination of microscopic cells. Being Microscopic doesn't in nature doesn't mean the damage incurred will be as serious.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Horrible comparison
> 
> Those thousands of microscopic needles are being fired with enough force to ravage the fucking battlefield, bro, they're not the equivalent of you just weakly dropping some needles from the sky


Microscopic needles may have the force and speed but they lack mass. The raikage has force, mass, and speed. There would still be a difference in penetrative power.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, they have not.
> 
> Edo A3 was fodder seal material after eating his own Nukite. Edo Zabuza and Haku stopped functioning after being Raikired. The vast VAST majority of Edos were weakened by those injuries, at least long enough to be sealed





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Tobirama...Senju?
> 
> You mean the guy from a clan literally prized for inheriting Hagoromo's lifeforce?
> 
> That's not "cellular level damage" anyway so not sure how you think that helps your case


He would be damaged down to his very cells sir considering he's missing trillions. So this goes against the other  examples right? Madara was also never incapacitated regardless of the injuries he took as an Edo. Basically as long as the injury isn't too debilitating they can attack before they even finish recovering. This also adds that even if injury was sustained by Naruto's FRS attack the raikage still would have the potential to move regardless if he was fully healed or not. Mind you we did have indicators of physical damage after FRS connected even though it did nothing to stop him for long. 

Anyways the level of debilitating injury required differs from Edo to Edo. If I'm not mistaken majority of the edo kages were still operating with serious injury.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

Anyways I'm done too. However let's not pretend that I insulted you out of nowhere seems like you're the only one who can't acknowledge that what you said is problematic. I've already admitted my that I was wrong but you haven't seemed to do any self reflection yourself. Again I was wrong but you were from from innocent as well.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> You are a combination of microscopic cells.



So?



SakuraLover16 said:


> Being Microscopic doesn't in nature doesn't mean the damage incurred will be as serious



No, but it _does_ mean a greater level of penetration is involved.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Microscopic needles may have the force and speed but they lack mass



Why does mass matter?  

Force literally is mass x acceleration. If the force is sufficient, that by definition means the acceleration takes care of the mass part._ Force_ is what tells us if the attack can actually break through the enemy. But let us ignore that fact for a moment...

The mass argument is strange too as FRS is* literally said to be highly dense*, to the point Ma was shocked that _SM Naruto*_ could toss it. 


*SM Naruto, only a chapter ago, tossed a massive rhino into the sky to the point he was still falling for multiple pages  



SakuraLover16 said:


> The raikage has force, mass, and speed.



But all of that would just make...Nukite > FRS.

If A3 has more mass and speed than FRS, he also produces more force and therefore hits harder.

Basic physics, really.



SakuraLover16 said:


> There would still be a difference in penetrative power.



But all of that would just make...Nukite > FRS.



SakuraLover16 said:


> He would be damaged* down to his very cells *



...And you and your friends tried to argue FRS was not penetrative compared to Nukite and other attacks...  



SakuraLover16 said:


> sir considering he's missing trillions



Proof?



SakuraLover16 said:


> So this goes against the other  examples right?



No, not at all, given that Nukite successfully neutralized him long enough for fodder to seal him  



SakuraLover16 said:


> Madara was also never incapacitated regardless of the injuries he took as an Edo.



What injuries?  

Madara also literally has Hashirama cells lmao, he_ is_ effectively a Senju.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Basically as long as the injury isn't too debilitating they can attack before they even finish recovering



The vast vast majority of Edos (literally only Tobirama and Madara aside) succumbed to far less though 

A3 included  



SakuraLover16 said:


> This also adds that even if injury was sustained by Naruto's FRS attack the raikage still would have the potential to move regardless if he was fully healed or not



Well, of course he would lmao. It barely even_ touched_ him.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Mind you we did have indicators of physical damage after FRS connected even though it did nothing to stop him for long



Never denied it did physical damage. 

It just wasn't enough obviously  



SakuraLover16 said:


> Anyways the level of debilitating injury required differs from Edo to Edo



True, but it does not help your case.



SakuraLover16 said:


> If I'm not mistaken majority of the edo kages were still operating with serious injury.



Nope, A3 fell apart like confetti after Nukite and got sealed by fodder.

Rasa and Gengetsu took zero direct damage, they were only buried and sealed.

Muu fell apart from Planetary Rasengan, retained damage even after SPLITTING to reduce the damage, and stayed down for 3 chapters.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Anyways I'm done too. However let's not pretend that I insulted you out of nowhere



You did, so no pretending necessary.



SakuraLover16 said:


> seems like you're the only one who can't acknowledge that what you said is problematic



Problematic is...a very strong term lmao.

Harshly criticizing your argument, even calling it dogshit or the worst thing since the OG Tsukihime anime that does not exist, is not problematic. Had I called YOU something bad (e.g., Sakura, you are a slimy human being), THAT would be problematic.

You are taking it as a personal insult for no reason. 



SakuraLover16 said:


> I've already admitted my that I was wrong but you haven't seemed to do any self reflection yourself. Again I was wrong but you were from from innocent as well.



I never claimed to be innocent, but that does not make me guilty either


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## t0xeus (Jan 30, 2022)

To any lurkers, don’t let the heated debate above distract you from the fact that Dodai’s feats in the fight against Ei3 are his and only his alone and thus he scales above Sannin in speed.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Kage 3


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## Onda Vital (Jan 30, 2022)

Jiraiya may beat him with frog song. Others lose.

Oro may be able to pull some poison shenanigans but idk about that.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> You did, so no pretending necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wtf? How do people succeed in riling up Sakura Lover? 

Aegon, you're a madman

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Mar55 (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Thoughts about the argument?


It's obvious they don't understand physics or A3's indomitable portrayal.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mar55 (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> needles may have the force and speed but they lack mass.


You literally don't know what you're talking about here.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mar55 (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> If I'm not mistaken majority of the edo kages were still operating with serious injury.


You are. 

Mū went down immediately to a single Planetary Rasengan and even his clone, which is meant to avoid damage, was out of action and recovering for several chapters. A also did the second his scar was reopened by Nukite.

The other Edo Kage just weren't physically damaged before being sealed.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Mar55 (Jan 30, 2022)

Crofty said:


> Round 1: Base Jiraiya
> Round 2: SM Jiraiya


Clear.


Crofty said:


> Round 3: Byakugou Tsunade


Could stop here.


Crofty said:


> Round 4: Orochimaru


Clear.


Crofty said:


> Round 5: All Sannin at once


Team has good odds.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> You did, so no pretending necessary.


I didn't. 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Problematic is...a very strong term lmao.
> 
> Harshly criticizing your argument, even calling it dogshit or the worst thing since the OG Tsukihime anime that does not exist, is not problematic. Had I called YOU something bad (e.g., Sakura, you are a slimy human being), THAT would be problematic.
> 
> You are taking it as a personal insult for no reason.


Have you ever thought of taking into account why the others saw it as insulting. @Beyonce did a great job explaining. I think it's important to at least just think about how such a response and tone could warrant such a response.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> I never claimed to be innocent, but that does not make me guilty either


Not quite sure about the thought process behind this but alright.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Shazam (Jan 30, 2022)

Yeah the Sannin aren’t being cleared by A3. And continuously shouting something about Wild Gyuki doesn’t change that.

Reactions: Lewd 2


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

I'm pretty much done now that took forever but I will post this last time since I just woke up.


Mar55 said:


> It's obvious they don't understand physics or A3's indomitable portrayal.


I just disagree with the common belief that Rasenshuriken failing means that Nukite is stronger when the way those to go about dealing damage is so different. If he couldn't be wounded by anything weaker than FRS then again he would have crushed the four other great villages however that wasn't the case.


Mar55 said:


> You literally don't know what you're talking about here.


I'm pretty sure I do to some extent I'm pretty much wagering that Ay has more mass as well to go with the speed and power of his attack. It makes sense that FRS had to first power through his armor before attacking A3s iron like cells directly. On top of this what stands out about FRS is the number of attacks it lands more energy seems to be gathered in a single point in Nukite than FRS which is why the move would be more successful especially considering A3 fell on top of his own attack both times which would be further enhanced by his own mass.


Mar55 said:


> You are.
> 
> Mū went down immediately to a single Planetary Rasengan and even his clone, which is meant to avoid damage, was out of action and recovering for several chapters. A also did the second his scar was reopened by Nukite.
> 
> The other Edo Kage just weren't physically damaged before being sealed.


When Mu splits himself his power decreased by so much that he was unable to use Jinton. Also I was thinking more in line of the Hokages. I'm almost sure two Hokage lost half of their bodies when they were attacked by Obito. Madara was also never debilitated by injuries he sustained either. The level of injury required for debilitating is dependent on the ninja.

Here you go I owed at least this much. I'm done though. Thank you.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Dislike 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I didn't



Did.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Have you ever thought of taking into account why the others saw it as insulting



Which "others"? Beyonce and DarkMaiar, who also seem to share the same perspective on A3 as you anyway?

OOOM, who agrees with me I didn't do anything insulting before you told me to pull my head out of my ass?



SakuraLover16 said:


> @Beyonce did a great job explaining. I think it's important to at least just think about how such a response and tone could warrant such a response



I will say that asking me to "pull my head out of my ass" is at least slightly worse, but I would have been more willing to accept it if it didn't come alongside a statement that accuses me of making this forum an unpleasant place for you by merely attacking your argument. Then it just looks hypocritical.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Not quite sure about the thought process behind this but alright.



It's an important distinction to make. Me, say, harshly denouncing your argument as trash is not the same as me, say, calling you a POS. Only one of those is flaming.

You can argue the former is impolite too, but it's not on the same level as the latter.


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## Lyren (Jan 30, 2022)

Sannin chads dominating the poll as things should be. 

@ShinAkuma

Reactions: Winner 1 | Lewd 1


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## Lyren (Jan 30, 2022)

@JFF Why my gif link appearing like this ? Didnt use to be this way in 2005?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Draco Bolton (Jan 30, 2022)

Crofty said:


> Round 1: Base Jiraiya
> Round 2: SM Jiraiya
> Round 3: Byakugou Tsunade
> Round 4: Orochimaru
> Round 5: All Sannin at once


I think the order of the rounds should be changed to give A3 more chances 

cuz directly starting against the Base 



Round 1: SM Jman
Round 2: Orochimaru
Round 3: Byakugayou Tsunade
Round 4: All Sannin at once
Round 5: Base Jman

A3 obviously neg diff in round 1

Then he job (he can win against Orochimaru if he wants his body. Ground Punch GG make him fall in hell/Five element seal solo. Jirachide neg. No need to talk about the Base)

Reactions: Funny 3


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 30, 2022)

Lyren said:


> Sannin chads dominating the poll as things should be.
> 
> @ShinAkuma

Reactions: Winner 1 | Lewd 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Did.


Did not


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Which "others"? Beyonce and DarkMaiar, who also seem to share the same perspective on A3 as you anyway?
> 
> OOOM, who agrees with me I didn't do anything insulting before you told me to pull my head out of my ass?


Soo them agreeing with some aspects of my argument makes them incapable of determining whether or not what you said comes off as insulting or not. Especially when they each went into detail of how it comes off as insulting? Make it make sense


Aegon Targaryen said:


> I will say that asking me to "pull my head out of my ass" is at least slightly worse, but I would have been more willing to accept it if it didn't come alongside a statement that accuses me of making this forum an unpleasant place for you by merely attacking your


Except I never said that you made the forum an unpleasant place. Quote it or stop bringing it up. I said the atmosphere here is terrible for debates and then I went on to explain why that was so. Nowhere did I say that you were the reason. This is the second or third time you've brought it up but the moment that I ask you to quote what you found issue with you haven't despite me repeating the same explanation as before.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's an important distinction to make. Me, say, harshly denouncing your argument as trash is not the same as me, say, calling you a POS. Only one of those is flaming.
> 
> You can argue the former is impolite too, but it's not on the same level as the latter.


Literally it's been explained why what you've said came off the way it did. So it came off as both impolite and condescending which is what I had issue with.

Reactions: Like 1 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Did not



Did.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Soo them agreeing with some aspects of my argument makes them incapable of determining whether or not what you said comes off as insulting or not



Didn't say it makes them incapable, but that people will generally be biased towards the side they agree with more is not a novel concept. Just look at sports fans who rage on behalf of their teams even if they weren't wronged on the field.

It's a theory and I could be wrong. That being said, Beyonce flamed me (not just my argument, me), so I _do_ wonder how capable they are of determining whether I insulted you or not. Darkmaiar seems to be sincere, they exaggerate but at least have not said anything inappropriate.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Especially when they each went into detail of how it comes off as insulting? Make it make sense



Beyonce flat out insulted me (and not my argument, me), so clearly they're either hypocritical or not the best measure to use  

Either way, it reduces their reliability as a witness  



SakuraLover16 said:


> Except I never said that you made the forum an unpleasant place. Quote it or stop bringing it up.



*Me*: Posts a laugh react

*SakuraLover16*:



SakuraLover16 said:


> I mean *a funny rating is hardly an argument of refutation *nor have I made up or used anything of outside the manga to illustrate my point. *This is the reason* why I don't post here anymore.



There you go  



SakuraLover16 said:


> I said the atmosphere here is terrible for debates and then I went on to explain why that was so. Nowhere did I say that you were the reason



You literally posted that in response to my _laugh react _and flat out stated "this" was the reason you didn't post here any more. In other words, you consider my laugh react contributed (a significant deal at least) to making the forum an unpleasant place.



SakuraLover16 said:


> This is the second or third time you've brought it up but the moment that I ask you to quote what you found issue with you haven't despite me repeating the same explanation as before



My bad. I just did.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Literally it's been explained why what you've said came off the way it did. So it came off as both impolite and condescending which is what I had issue with.



It's been "explained", all right. I just don't agree with your explanation.

It was not nice or friendly, I'll give you that. Forgive me for not always being a fuzzy teddy bear during debates. When I see nonsense, I'll call it out as nonsense. I would go as far as say that being blunt but honest is better than being kind but incorrect.

That being said, you still have yet to accept the fact all of this has been a response to your ARGUMENT, not you as a person. In fact, I notice you all keep ignoring or downplaying that fact for some reason.

Most likely, because it proves that I didn't actually insult you, and thus you overreacted.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Danisor (Jan 30, 2022)

No need to bully the Sannin like that.

None of them can even react to the Raikage’s max speed, they have no way to hurt hm, and will get destroyed.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## BlackHeartedImp (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What the hell are y'all doing?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> What the hell are y'all doing?



Arguing about why a laugh react and telling someone to reread the manga are or aren't personal insults.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Arguing about why a laugh react and telling someone to reread the manga are or aren't personal insults.




Leave SakuraLover alone. He need not be tainted.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Did.


Did not.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Didn't say it makes them incapable, but that people will generally be biased towards the side they agree with more is not a novel concept. Just look at sports fans who rage on behalf of their teams even if they weren't wronged on the field.
> 
> It's a theory and I could be wrong. That being said, Beyonce flamed me (not just my argument, me), so I _do_ wonder how capable they are of determining whether I insulted you or not. Darkmaiar seems to be sincere, they exaggerate but at least have not said anything inappropriate.


So in the same breath in your last post you said OOM agreed that what you posted so therefore aren't you using a similar source in which you overall called biased?




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Beyonce flat out insulted me (and not my argument, me), so clearly they're either hypocritical or not the best measure to use
> 
> Either way, it reduces their reliability as a witness


Beyonce flamed you where!? I went and reread the entire exchange. They told you that they were being nothing but nice (they were) but wouldn't be continuing if you were just going to post passive aggressive one word responses and they even gave you the benefit of the doubt before all of that.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> There you go





Aegon Targaryen said:


> You literally posted that in response to my _laugh react _and flat out stated "this" was the reason you didn't post here any more. In other words, you consider my laugh react contributed (a significant deal at least) to making the forum an unpleasant place.





SakuraLover16 said:


> I mean a funny rating is hardly an argument of refutation nor have I made up or used anything of outside the manga to illustrate my point. THIS is the reason why I don't post here anymore.





SakuraLover16 said:


> I hate doing that though. I'll just call it quits to the battledome. I'll just go back to lurking if even that. The atmosphere here isn't the best. No one actually wants to do anything other than be right regardless if they are or not.


So yeah I know exactly what I said. So again where did I say you were the cause of anything.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's been "explained", all right. I just don't agree with your explanation.
> 
> It was not nice or friendly, I'll give you that. Forgive me for not always being a fuzzy teddy bear during debates. When I see nonsense, I'll call it out as nonsense. I would go as far as say that being blunt but honest is better than being kind but incorrect.
> 
> ...


No sir. If you can't even accept that what you said could possibly illicit a negative reaction despite you yourself saying that it wasn't nice or friendly then how the hell can I expect you to accept any reasoning that you so called can't agree with. In fact you were even told how it could be received negatively. But you know what. It is what it is. I'm not wasting any more time on this subject.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Did not



Did so.



SakuraLover16 said:


> So in the same breath in your last post you said OOM agreed that what you posted so therefore aren't you using a similar source in which you overall called biased?



No, I merely cited OOM to show you that public opinion isn't entirely on your side.

Not that appeal to popularity is a good idea anyway 



SakuraLover16 said:


> Beyonce flamed you where!? I went and reread the entire exchange. They told you that they were being nothing but nice (they were) but wouldn't be continuing if you were just going to post passive aggressive one word responses and they even gave you the benefit of the doubt before all of that



They called me delusional. The mods seem to have deleted it.



SakuraLover16 said:


> So yeah I know exactly what I said. So again where did I say you were the cause of anything



You literally said ''_this_ is why I do not like posting here'' *in response *to my laugh react and how it represented a non-argument from me.

What is ''this'' referring to, if not my laugh react (and whatever intent you perceived to be behind it)?



SakuraLover16 said:


> No sir. If you can't even accept that what you said could possibly illicit a negative reaction



A negative reaction to my _argument_, yes. You, on the other hand, took it *personally*.

And not just that, you provided an arguably_ more _offensive response to mine literally after ranting about how rude I am. 

Do you not see the double standards?

Here, watch this clip, it will help IMO:




SakuraLover16 said:


> despite you yourself saying that it wasn't nice or friendly



Not being nice and friendly =/ being insulting.



SakuraLover16 said:


> then how the hell can I expect you to accept any reasoning that you so called can't agree with. In fact you were even told how it could be received negatively.



I was told many things, including that I am delusional.



SakuraLover16 said:


> But you know what. It is what it is. I'm not wasting any more time on this subject.



You keep saying that.

See you in a couple of hours


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

Blocked

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Blocked



And it didn't even take* two hours *

CALLED IT 

Also, concession accepted


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 30, 2022)

OT, A3 can take Base J-Man pretty handily - dodging a KCM chakra arm twice, especially with the Sun in his eyes the first time, is a much better speed feat than anything Base J-Man seemed capable of. A3 was indicated to be about as fast as V1 A4, who was able to throw a _non-Shunshin_ punch at Naruto before Base Tsunade (who J-Man scales to in terms of speed, more or less) could get _anywhere _close lmao.

I see SM J-Man beating him solo, however. If a stunted psuedo-SM Juugo could physically react to V1 A4's initial speeds, a healthy imperfect-but-actual SM Jiraiya with shared vision (Ma and Pa), motion detection barriers, and LOS blockers (smoke bombs and Fuuton from Ma) can likely handle A3's upper speeds quite competently. While he will still struggle to do any damage at first, he can likely keep A3 at bay using the aforementioned abilities and distractions invoving Shadow Clones or summons to prep Frog Song, shut A3 and his RNY down, and bury him with Yomi Numa - maybe even drop a toad on top of him to ensure he falls all the way to the bottom and drowns. But let us assume A3 still wins...

I am not certain he can beat Tsunade - he has no reliable way to _keep her down_ and Tsunade has comparable stamina IMO (Tsunade seemed to maintain Byakugou at least as long as A4 did his RNY, and A4 had Bijuu level chakra seemingly like his dad) - and Tsunade may weaken him enough overall so that a fully fresh Oro will beat him. Between Byakugou, her ability to outperform A4 against the Susano'o clones in CQC, and the tricky-to-kill Katsuyu, the Hokage can certainly stay alive and force A3 to expend a shit ton of chakra to win or still lose anyway. Tsunade and Oro cannot wound him at all until his RNY fades, however, and even then, their best and safest hope is outlasting him. This will be far easier for the Snake Sannin as he will be at full stamina while A3 will (hopefully) be unable to maintain his RNY at all and not far off from passing out.

The Sannin together are too much for him, as one can likely glean from the above points and the trio being _vastly _stronger than the one.


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## Mar55 (Jan 30, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I just disagree with the common belief that Rasenshuriken failing means that Nukite is stronger


By direct comparison Nukite is more potent, however it doesn't cover nearly as much area. Nor is it suited to destroying the chakra network like a poison.


Those are the differences.




SakuraLover16 said:


> he would have crushed the four other great villages however that wasn't the case.


Untrue, Jinton seemingly existed since before the village's founding. There are clearly techniques and numbers capable of overwhelming him, but that also doesn't take away from his feats whatsoever.

A hammer is not the only tool used to build a house. In essence, Shinobi had means outside of traditional damage that could easily defeat A3. Such as sealing, Genjutsu, barriers, soul techniques and many powerful Kinjutsu.


SakuraLover16 said:


> When Mu splits himself his power decreased by so much that he was unable to use Jinton.


Edō's recuperative abilities are not displayed to be limited enough that his chakra being divided should prevent his regeneration for several chapters.

Only when the damage is sufficient does this happen.




SakuraLover16 said:


> pretty sure I do to some extent I'm pretty much wagering that Ay has more mass as well to go with the speed and power of his attack



All this would mean is that his attack has more force, since speed and mass = force.

Rasenshuriken is a penetrative attack in both stages (the slashing shuriken blades and the nigh infinite needle like blades), still it failed to properly do so against his durability. Nukite blows through his body on contact, it's more potent.

Rasenshuriken actually has a smaller surface area, since the individual attacks are smaller than cells. Nukite is the size of a finger near its tip. So, Nukite is just general more energetic in this manner.


SakuraLover16 said:


> SakuraLover16 said:
> 
> 
> > Also I was thinking more in line of the Hokages. I'm almost sure two Hokage lost half of their bodies when they were attacked by Obito. Madara was also never debilitated by injuries he sustained either. The level of injury re



These are all Shinobi with regenerative prowess or enhanced vitality. How are they relevant to Shinobi without such enhancements? We see many Edō go down to a lot less, or become incapacitated by would be fatal attacks.

The Senjū are literally known for life force and physical energy specifically. Madara is just a fusion of both and using fakea Rinne Chakra.

Even then, what damage did Madara take that should've incapacitated him? His wood clone was punched and killed and immediately sealed, reinforcing the concept.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crofty (Jan 30, 2022)

Wtf happened in my thread

Reactions: Funny 3


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## GrandBenja (Jan 30, 2022)

Crofty said:


> Wtf happened in my thread


A fight, it seems. But your thread was about a fight too, wasn't it?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 30, 2022)

Mar55 said:


> By direct comparison Nukite is more potent, however it doesn't cover nearly as much area. Nor is it suited to destroying the chakra network like a poison.
> 
> 
> Those are the differences.


Right more chakra funneled into a specific area. Meaning it would be more effective in penetration since what it sets out to do is effectively pure physical damage. So what I was getting at is nukite is more potent by virtue of having more chakra gathered at a specific point.



Mar55 said:


> Untrue, Jinton seemingly existed since before the village's founding. There are clearly techniques and numbers capable of overwhelming him, but that also doesn't take away from his feats whatsoever.


No one is taking away from anything though is what I'm getting at. Its just not the same as saying that Nukite is stronger than FRS because they set out to do two totally different things.


Mar55 said:


> A hammer is not the only tool used to build a house. In essence, Shinobi had means outside of traditional damage that could easily defeat A3. Such as sealing, Genjutsu, barriers, soul techniques and many powerful Kinjutsu.


A3 can still be traditionally damaged with attacks weaker than FRS considering we see him damaged by wind attacks and a palm sized rasengan through his cloak. I was just sayings attacks don't have to be greater than FRS to pose a threat.


Mar55 said:


> Edō's recuperative abilities are not displayed to be limited enough that his chakra being divided should prevent his regeneration for several chapters.
> 
> Only when the damage is sufficient does this happen.


Its not just chakra though the fission technique is an actual physical seperation meaning neither is truly the original version. Also he was fully healed by the end of the chapter and had recovered enough chakra to summon Madara to the field.


Mar55 said:


> All this would mean is that his attack has more force, since speed and mass = force.
> 
> Rasenshuriken is a penetrative attack in both stages (the slashing shuriken blades and the nigh infinite needle like blades), still it failed to properly do so against his durability. Nukite blows through his body on contact, it's more potent.
> 
> Rasenshuriken actually has a smaller surface area, since the individual attacks are smaller than cells. Nukite is the size of a finger near its tip. So, Nukite is just general more energetic in this manner.


I don't disagree. The first form is a large cutting attack before it explodes and becomes a piercing attack. Another poster brought up a decent point. Yes both a needle and an anti armor missle are both piercing attacks but that doesn't make the quality of both the same. Basically Nukite has way more energy behind the size of a fingernail than the FRS needles do being microscopic.


Mar55 said:


> These are all Shinobi with regenerative prowess or enhanced vitality. How are they relevant to Shinobi without such enhancements? We see many Edō go down to a lot less, or become incapacitated by would be fatal attacks.





Mar55 said:


> The Senjū are literally known for life force and physical energy specifically. Madara is just a fusion of both and using fakea Rinne Chakra.





Mar55 said:


> Even then, what damage did Madara take that should've incapacitated him? His wood clone was punched and killed and immediately sealed, reinforcing the concept.


He purposely let Jinton blow away a portion of his upper body. Maybe I'm also mistaken but didn't Hiruzen also lose half of his body when Tobirama lost his half or was that Hashi? It seems more along the lines. Anyways it seems like whatever would have killed them in life would have killed them in death that's what I stayed previously in this thread anyhow.

I'm probably going to head out now though. Just wanted to repeat again that no one is trying to take anything from Ay.


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## Sparks (Jan 31, 2022)

@Icegaze How did this argument on attack attributes even start?

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 31, 2022)

Sparks said:


> @Icegaze How did this argument on attack attributes even start?



It all started with a laugh react.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 31, 2022)

Danisor said:


> No need to bully the Sannin like that.
> 
> None of them can even react to the Raikage’s max speed, they have no way to hurt hm, and will get destroyed.


Dodai says hi, Suigetsu and Jugo says hi

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Symmetry (Feb 4, 2022)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> If being poisoned doesn’t directly deactivate it, when A3 stumbles he will be incapable of defending himself from wind attacks that can blow the armor off.


After reading the Naruto retsudan novel it turns out Orochiamru has a poison fog jutsu as well that also appears lethal so it doesn’t matter anyways, provided he can’t hit A3 with that he wins

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Symmetry (Feb 4, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> and Oro cannot wound him at all until his RNY fades, however, and even then, their best and safest hope is outlasting him. This will be far easier for the Snake Sannin as he will be at full stamina while A3 will (hopefully) be unable to maintain his RNY at all and not far off from passing out.


Orochimaru uses his poison fog jutsu which should kill A3 provided it lands 

Ofc that’s up for mega debate but it’s an opinion


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## Turrin (Feb 9, 2022)

The only Sannin who can beat A3 solo potentially is SM Jiriaya with Frog-Song, but that’s not guaranteed by any means. Together the Sannin should beat A3 though


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## Santoryu (Feb 9, 2022)

There is no way A3 loses 1 vs 1 under neutral circumstances to be honest.

Not like these guys can tire him out or bfr him
And what techniques do they have to get through his defense?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## MHA massive fan (Feb 9, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> After reading the Naruto retsudan novel it turns out Orochiamru has a poison fog jutsu as well that also appears lethal so it doesn’t matter anyways, provided he can’t hit A3 with that he wins


Send link i want to read this 
Always interested in new feats or jutsu


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## Symmetry (Feb 9, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Send link i want to read this
> Always interested in new feats or jutsu


Here’s the part of the book I’m referring to, quoted.

“The battle began. Drones vs Naruto and Orochimaru. There were at least a hundred of them, each with different capabilities, so it was hard to deal with them. Especially with the laser beam type and the self-destruct type.* Orochimaru started spraying poisonous fog into the drones and ruthlessly executed the drones around him, some of which started to self-destruct.* As the tip of the frontal part of the drones started glowing red, the countdown to their suicide bomb started. A large number of snakes popped out of the mouth of Orochimaru. It filled the floor and started jumping at the drones”

If you search up Naruto retsudan read online their is a tumblr link which leads you to another link which has the English translated version.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 3


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## Baroxio (Feb 9, 2022)

Didn't A3 literally fall asleep with his Raiton Shroud still on? I'm not even sure if stuff like Frog Song and White Snake Neurotoxins can stop it, being 100% honest.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 9, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> Didn't A3 literally fall asleep with his Raiton Shroud still on? I'm not even sure if stuff like Frog Song and White Snake Neurotoxins can stop it, being 100% honest.



Might just take a sec to dissipate.

He lost it after Naruto knocked Nukite back into his chest, despite appearing to be conscious.


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## MHA massive fan (Feb 10, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> Here’s the part of the book I’m referring to, quoted.
> 
> “The battle began. Drones vs Naruto and Orochimaru. There were at least a hundred of them, each with different capabilities, so it was hard to deal with them. Especially with the laser beam type and the self-destruct type.* Orochimaru started spraying poisonous fog into the drones and ruthlessly executed the drones around him, some of which started to self-destruct.* As the tip of the frontal part of the drones started glowing red, the countdown to their suicide bomb started. A large number of snakes popped out of the mouth of Orochimaru. It filled the floor and started jumping at the drones”
> 
> If you search up Naruto retsudan read online their is a tumblr link which leads you to another link which has the English translated version.


Thank you 
I know it’s a jutsu shizune used in manga  no big deal but it’s cool to see someone else use it


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## SakuraLover16 (Feb 10, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Thank you
> I know it’s a jutsu shizune used in manga  no big deal but it’s cool to see someone else use it


Actually if I remember correctly Kabuto stated that one whiff of her poison jutsu would kill him. I definitely think it was an underutilized jutsu.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Feb 10, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> He was injured by less than FRS though. Temari and 2 wind fodder damaged him and even Naruto's palm sized rasengan injured his skin. Also FRS and Hell Stab are two different attacks that work in two different ways. I have no idea why whenever this is brought up its glazed over of course being attacked by millions of small needles all over and being attacked in a single concentrated point will have different effects and he still sustained damage from FRS it was just did nothing to keep him incapacitated long enough to be sealed.
> 
> It's not like we need a diagram to explain the difference between a rasengan and a chidori. This is honestly no different. Another example being Madara negged Naruto's Cho Odama rasengan (that may have been sage enhanced) but yet his ribcage Susanoo couldnt hold up from being punched by Tsunade those are different attacks as well. Mind you all three of the Sannin slso have ways of bypassing durability all together.
> 
> So it's not something like Hell Stab is stronger than FRS. It's more like Hell Stab is better at piercing than FRS is. Which is why the statement of needing an attack to be stronger than FRS to Injure the raikage doesn't hold water.


Sarutobi who is also implied to be stronger then all the Sannin except maybe SM Jiriaya (though likely would also be stronger); so that’s a pretty good reason he wasn’t able to take over the world even if he’s stronger then the Sannin.


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## Symmetry (Feb 10, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Thank you
> I know it’s a jutsu shizune used in manga  no big deal but it’s cool to see someone else use it


Ye it’s nothing too crazy but I’ll take any new Orochimaru showings I can get 

The Boruto series also shows him able to use the four violet ray formation on his own to solo a fake godtree through its regen so that’s nice 

Either way his ability to bypass durability like A3’s with poison does have some good uses in NBD settings


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## MHA massive fan (Feb 10, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> Ye it’s nothing too crazy but I’ll take any new Orochimaru showings I can get
> 
> The Boruto series also shows him able to use the four violet ray formation on his own to solo a fake godtree through its regen so that’s nice
> 
> Either way his ability to bypass durability like A3’s with poison does have some good uses in NBD settings


Yup 
So thanks to that I can say perhaps he got a chance of winning 
Would depend on the AOE and when he uses it


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## SakuraLover16 (Feb 10, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Sarutobi who is also implied to be stronger then all the Sannin except maybe SM Jiriaya (though likely would also be stronger); so that’s a pretty good reason he wasn’t able to take over the world even if he’s stronger then the Sannin.


I never got the impression or portrayal that they were weaker. Just that in his prime he would be a match for them. Also even if it were the case that would only be an explanation for Konoha. I'd buy more into jutsu chemistry than him being this nearly unbeatable foe.


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## Itachi x Tenten (Feb 10, 2022)

Orochimaru beats him easily by using fuinjutsu to disrupt his chakra flow and then kill him. Jiraiya can beat him easily with frog song if need be or he can just seal or used the sealed amaterasu that he took from Itachi to kill him. A3 isnt that fast. at all. compared to other kage level shinobi considering both Dodai and Temari can casually react to him in some way or another

as for Tsunade she would probably lose due to match up


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 10, 2022)

A3 was stated to have blood like iron by Darui (while this is not the VIZ, I doubt the fan translators would invent stuff like this as opposed to translating what was already there). I wouldn't take it for granted that poison is the answer to his prodigious durability.


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## Symmetry (Feb 10, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> A3 was stated to have blood like iron by Darui (while this is not the VIZ, I doubt the fan translators would invent stuff like this as opposed to translating what was already there). I wouldn't take it for granted that poison is the answer to his prodigious durability.


That is a very good point, it would entirely depend on what Kishi decides because now it’s entirely up to him if he thinks “iron blood hype” defeats ryuchi cave poison hype 

So it’s definitely nebulous

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 10, 2022)

Not even saying the poison will have zero effect on A3, it could just slow him down or something instead of paralyzing him fully (kinda like Frog Song did to Animal Path before it concluded).


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## Turrin (Feb 10, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I never got the impression or portrayal that they were weaker. Just that in his prime he would be a match for them. Also even if it were the case that would only be an explanation for Konoha. I'd buy more into jutsu chemistry than him being this nearly unbeatable foe.


Honestly I think there is a strong case for Old Hiruzen being above Orochimaru and Tsunade:

1) Orochimaru needed Prep-Time (for the ideal Edos) and Battlefield Advantage (as he controlled the Barrier Space and Hiruzen had to worry about the village); on top of Hiruzen already not having his heart in the battle against his student, to pull off thee most extreme diff win we have ever seen in the manga against Old Hiruzen.

2)  Kabuto and Orochimaru also knew Old Hiruzen’s hype as the Strongest Gokage, going into the fight with Old Hiruzen, and Orochimaru thought he could still easily beat him with the Edo Kages, only to be proven very wrong. So this likely means Orochimaru considered himself comfortably above Onoki at the point that he had the Edo Kages, and he still nearly lost to Hiruzen, and Kabuto reaffirms Hiruzen’s hype afterwards as the Strongest Gokage. So it’s fairly clearly Hiruzen is above Onoki by a large margin, and Onoki out performed Tsunade during the Gokage vs Madara fight.

Now I can be a little bit sympathetic towards Tsunade since she may not have had her full Byakugo stores given that she only had a few weeks to store chakra as opposed to Years and she also wasted chakra healing Onoki and Gaara at the start of the fight; so maybe she would have done better then Onoki if she had Full reserves but that is very hypothetical and wouldn’t necessarily put her beyond Old Hiruzen.
—-
And that’s just Old Hiruzen. Prime Hiruzen was

1) Considered the Strongest Hokage by the people, and while this is probably due to Hashirama’s power being written off as a fairy tale, it still means the people believed Prime Hiruzen was > Minato who was fresh in their memory for dealing with the 9-Tails Fox; and Minato should at least be a bit above even Jiriaya at his peak, SM, (and this is being really generous to Jiriaya, who is above the other two Sannin with SM too).

2) He was also considered the God of Shinobi by Orochimaru, and Orochimaru was of course aware of Minato defeating the 9-Tails and Minato’s general power level; and he also at least knew about Hashirama powers to the extent of Flower Tree World as Tsunade wasn’t surprised by this display nor Kabuto. So he seems to believe Hiruzen is beyond that.

3) Prime Hiruzen is heavily implied to be above Tobirama who even the high ball JJ Obito speed estimations aside I would think it would be really hard to argue the Sannin are outright stronger then him by any significant margin, even SM Jiriaya.

4) Single greatest achievement outside Founder Tier is the idea that someone can use all Jutsu in the Leaf Village, even if this only applies to P1 Konoha Village Jutsu.

Basically everything seems to indicate that Prime Hiruzen is the Peak power outside of Founder Tier even ignoring the idea that he’s outright God of Ninja or Strongest Hokage; and the Sannin even SM Jiriaya or 2.5 Year Byakugo Tsunade simply aren’t that even at their most wanker possible.


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## SakuraLover16 (Feb 10, 2022)

If I'm not mistaken the barrier was so there would be no interference,  the edos were also a form of emotional warfare, and Orochimaru played with Hiruzen which allowed him to use reaper death seal.

God of shinobi was a moniker it's not that Orochimatu actually believed it to be the case considering he already knew about Hashirama.

The two roles that Tsunade and Ohnoki took couldn't have been any more different if possible therefore a performance comparison isn't what you're ranking them on instead it would be who you believe contributed more. Which is fair but only tells a portion of the story. It's why that even going off of contributions in the Gokage fight they are quite close and who edges out depends on what carries more value in the reader's eyes. I would say even Ohnoki holds Tsunade in very high regard with how he addresses her. But that's besides the point.

They all have large amounts of hype the difference is the type of feats they have to go along either said hype.


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## Turrin (Feb 10, 2022)

SakuraLover16 said:


> If I'm not mistaken the barrier was so there would be no interference,  the edos were also a form of emotional warfare, and Orochimaru played with Hiruzen which allowed him to use reaper death seal.
> 
> God of shinobi was a moniker it's not that Orochimatu actually believed it to be the case considering he already knew about Hashirama.
> 
> ...


The barrier prevented people from interferring, but also alllowed Oro to control the battlefield. Imagine if Jiraiya was locked into a barrier with Pain, he would have had a much more difficult fight. Also as I said Hiruzen had to take into consideration the village he couldn't just blow things up, he had to be reserved and stand his ground in the barrier.

The Edo's were emotional warfare and they were also additional Kage level enemies that Orochimaru had the aid of because he was awarded prep time. And the only reason he needed Shiki Fuujin was due to the Edos in the first place as it was a type match up thing where Hiruzen didn't have a Fuuinjutsu able to seal the Edos otherwise. So he was also in abad type match up scenario. 

Orochimaru still seemed to expect that peformance ot of Hiruzen as he mocks him for not being able to summon that level of power anymore due to his age. So it seems heavily implied he bought into Hiruzen's hype, and likely he just didn't know Hashirama was that strong, even Kabuto didn't really know how strong Madara was and Tsunade didn't know ether.

Thing is even if I grant you that Tsunade and Onoki are equal that would still place her performance bellow Old Hiruzen's level, since he is above Onoki.

I agree they all have hype the thing is Old Hiruzen's hype is around Sannin level already, so naturally Prime should be above.
--
We can discuss feats seperately as well if you want but I think Old Hiruzen's feats already scale to the Sannin or above in some cases/areas.


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## MHA massive fan (Feb 10, 2022)

Poison fog , frog song , possibly chakra scalpel to breach RCM cloak + okasho hit right after  are the 3 things that could harm A3. Everything else frankly he walks through 

meanwhile Nikute head shot could beat tsunade and Jiriaya on first attempt 
Stands to reason A3> Sannin 1 v 1 for sure


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## Symmetry (Feb 10, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Orochimaru needed Prep-Time (for the ideal Edos)


This already is an issue because the hydra is stated stronger than the edos, so prep time is redundant because he has a stronger jutsu that doesn’t require prep in his arsenal, so the idea that he needs prep is already false from the start



Turrin said:


> alllowed Oro to control the battlefield.


It was for outside interference and hindered Orochimaru as well. It stoped him from using Manda and the hydra as well as any larger snakes, which’s re legit core aspects of his kit 



Turrin said:


> on top of Hiruzen already not having his heart in the battle against his student, to pull off thee most extreme diff win we have ever seen in the manga against Old Hiruzen.


Orochimaru was also not going all out on Hiruzen, in fact he never even directly fought the man but just stood back and watched his edos do the work without ever engaging 

Which is something he states he’s doing purposefully to torture him 

Oro doesn’t even have KI in the fight as he grabbed Hiruzen and had a kunai to his throat and legit let him go just for the fun of it 

It’d painfully obvious Orochimaru was dragging it out on purpose 



Turrin said:


> and Orochimaru thought he could still easily beat him with the Edo Kages, only to be proven very wrong


Only due to the reaper deathseal which lets people punch way above their weight class. Super common trope to have the inferior fighter use a suicide technique to take out a superior opponent. This same tech let Minato take out the full ninetails, when without it he’s nowhere near that level of power 


Taking out the suicide tech that lets him punch far above his weight class Hiruzen was being ragdolled completely 

Not to mention, again, Orochimaru wasn’t trying or using his strongest tech 

HiruNe himself admits Orochimaru is stronger than him and the databook states Orochimaru is clearly stronger than Hiruzen 

Orochimaru is 100 percent stronger than Hiruzen

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Turrin (Feb 10, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> This already is an issue because the hydra is stated stronger than the edos, so prep time is redundant because he has a stronger jutsu that doesn’t require prep in his arsenal, so the idea that he needs prep is already false from the start
> 
> 
> It was for outside interference and hindered Orochimaru as well. It stoped him from using Manda and the hydra as well as any larger snakes, which’s re legit core aspects of his kit
> ...


1) Hydra being stronger then Edos is debatable; as that statement was made at a time Orochimaru couldn't use Edo Tensei anyway. Its even more debatbale to say it's stronger then Base Orochimaru + Edos. And even if it is Edos were worse against Hiruzen as his only way for him to deal with them was RDS (and then there was also the emotional aspect of fighting his teachers too).

2) It didn't stop him, as he could have lowered the barrier at any time or potentially even had the S4 make it larger. It was his choice to remain with in it, and lets be real here, if he let it down the only people who would have come to Hiruzen's aid would have been som Anbu who were awe struck by the battle, that isn't doing shit for Hiruzen against Orochimaru.

3) Orochimaru hesitated at the beginning of the battle and immediatly overcame this; Hiruzen struggled with KI the entire fight until the very end. Hiruzen is less heartless then Oro by a mile and would therefore logically have a tougher time in this spot anyway. Let's be honest here come on now....

4) He needed RDS because he couldn't kill the Tensei any other way, had they not been immortal he would have had them done in with the explosive tags. It was a bad match up, as we know there are Ninja weaker then Hiruzen who do have sealing techniques that would work on the Edos

5) No Hiruzen didn't say that, he said he didn't think he could stop Orochimaru, but he clearly undersold himself and oversold his student as he did stop Orochimaru. Thats a clear example of a statement which is a "maybe" to begin with and shown to be false later. Data-book never states Orochimaru is stronger, it says Hiruzen and Orochimaru were equals in their fight in the Fanbook, and this being Orochimaru with Edos.


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## Symmetry (Feb 10, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Sannin 1 v 1 for sure


I wouldn't say for sure, they certainly are on the same level IMO


Turrin said:


> Hydra being stronger then Edos is debatable; as that statement was made at a time Orochimaru couldn't use Edo Tensei anyway


Fair, but it talks about the hydra as taking years to develop and that it is Orochimaru's embodiment of his long years of jutsu training, something which is not given to the edo tensei in part 1



Turrin said:


> Base Orochimaru + Edos


Well here's your issue

At no point did Orochimaru ever attack Hiruzen whilst using his edos

Not once

You have yet to answer as to why Orochimaru would purposefully withhold himself from attacking with his edos if not because he wasn't going all out




Turrin said:


> It didn't stop him, as he could have lowered the barrier at any time or potentially even had the S4 make it larger. It was his choice to remain with in it,


Agreed, which means you then concede that he could have summoned Manda or went in the hydra in conjunction with his edos and yet never did so

Why would he not do so if he was trying his hardest and taking the battle seriously?


Orochimaru withheld _his entire arsenal _bar ET. he summoned kusunagi to defend himself but never attacked with it until the edos died, and even when they died he withheld everything he had but one striking shadow snakes attack




Turrin said:


> have been som Anbu who were awe struck by the battle, that isn't doing shit for Hiruzen against Orochimaru.


he doesn't know how the battle is going outside entirely, for all he knows there could be more leaf backup coming. Hell, Danzo could be around somewhere and he doesn't want to fight him too. He also doesn't know who is and isn't in the village, Jiriaya could be there, and he was, so Orochimaru was right to section it off




Turrin said:


> overcame this


Where is this stated or shown

He never uses any offense until after the edos die, he never uses Manda or hydra or anything other than one fodder snake technique, he states he's having the edos hold back when Bod is used, the databook says he isn't taking it seriously, etc etc

legit nothing supports this


Turrin said:


> Hiruzen is less heartless then Oro by a mile and would therefore logically have a tougher time in this spot anyway. Let's be honest here come on now....


Orochimaru's issue wasn't that he felt bad

the issue was he was holding back to make Hiruzen suffer. he legit states he summons the edos to make him suffer mentally for the fun of it

The issue is Orochimaru is too sadistic to kill him quickly, he let the man go even though he had a kunai to his throad, showing he didn't have KI, and you have yet to prove he had KI at any point until after the edos died



Turrin said:


> He needed RDS because he couldn't kill the Tensei any other way,


He also can't kill the hydra any other way either

Which again procs the reaper deathseal, once again to hit above his weight class

he can't even put down base Orochimaru who has insane regen, base Tsunade punch level durability, kn4 negging rashomon and leech all creation




Turrin said:


> but he clearly undersold himself and oversold his student as he did stop Orochimaru


Because Orochimaru didn't take him seriously

Hiruzen was correct that a serious Orochimaru washes him

Backed up by the first databook straight up saying Orochimaru is "clearly" stronger than him


Turrin said:


> it says Hiruzen and Orochimaru were equals in their fight in the Fanbook



this doesn't happen

It says Orochimaru and Hiruzen fought evenly, which is true. That doesn't mean Orochimaru fought seriously though. His edos and Hiruzen fought a pitched battle with Orochimaru never getting involved, then they fight a dead even battle for his soul

The fact remains that overall Orochimaru was stronger. Yes, the first databook states Orochimaru was stronger than Hiruzen.


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## Turrin (Feb 10, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> I wouldn't say for sure, they certainly are on the same level IMO
> 
> Fair, but it talks about the hydra as taking years to develop and that it is Orochimaru's embodiment of his long years of jutsu training, something which is not given to the edo tensei in part 1
> 
> ...


1) Why does amount of time to develop matter when talking about strength? I mean are you going to say Yamata is better then Oro’s P2 Edos too because it too longer to develop?

2) Orochimaru was mostly focused on controlling the Tensei, but he was still a threat Hiruzen needed to focus his efforts on and a threat he needed to deal with after the Tensei. So Orochimaru being there regardless of the amount he attacked when the Tensei were out is still tougher to deal with then if only the Tensei were there 

3) Well first off we don’t know if Oro could use Yamata Pre-TS, but assuming he could I don’t think it helps him against Hiruzen and would just be a waste of chakra. When Yata Mirror walled Yamata, Oro pulled out the Ksunagi sword, this tells us it has higher penetrative power then Yamata, and even it could only cause some pain to Enma, so Yamata would have just been walled. Oro probably knew that so his only chance was to slowly wear down Enma with Ksunagi or to exhausted Hiruzen with the Edo’s; so that Hiruzen ran out of stamina first. Especially seeing how age effected him this was the best strategy for Orochimaru.

4) The idea that someone else can show up mid battle is a risk in any battle and he has S4 members as scouts anyway who can redo the barrier if someone comes. I really don’t see this as any major disadvantage comparable to Hiruzen’s 

5) He stabs his hand and says he’s prepared to kill Hiruzen then.

6) What Feats does Yamata have that indicate it can survive Goton which scales above the 10-Tails Cataclysm?

7) Orochimaru  prepped out all the Hokages to fight against him and pulled out the Ksunagi sword which has been his final triumph Card against KN4 and Susanoo (even when Yamata Failed). He clearly took Hiruzen very seriously. 

That’s not to say he was overconfident. He clearly thought he was stronger then Hiruzen and had the win in the bag, but that’s Orochimaru’s MO. He does the same shit against Itachi, yet no one is arguing Itachi isn’t stronger then Orochimaru.


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## SakuraLover16 (Feb 10, 2022)

Well it would be redundant to repeat what Orochi said.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Feb 10, 2022)

Probably already posted, but wins all 1v1s and 1v2s, but I'll give it to Sannin 3v1 due to Frog Song

Tsunade gets destroyed for obvious reasons

Jiraiya has nothing that can touch him, only hope is Frog Song which I don't think he'll get off before Jiraiya gets annihilated due to his speed

Orochimaru also can't outlast him, he would have died against KN4 TBB, so against something like Nukite which > FRS then Orochimaru gets destroyed. Worst case, Orochimaru gets outlasted due to having less stamina and having to constantly regen. Poison is one way to win, but it would have to be gas, and ninja can hold their breaths for ungodly amounts of time

Vs all 3, Orochimaru and Tsunade > Dodai so they can stall off long enough for Frog song to take him out.


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## Symmetry (Feb 10, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Why does amount of time to develop matter when talking about strength?


Does it ever imply that it is only the strongest jutsu he has now that he lost his arms?

It’s implied that it is his magnum opus and the amalgamation of all his work, ET is not presented as the culmination of all his works



Turrin said:


> So Orochimaru being there regardless of the amount he attacked when the Tensei were out is still tougher to deal with then if only the Tensei were there


Sure, but that doesn’t explain why Orochimaru didn’t also attack with them. He showed the ability to use kusunagi to block Hiruzen’s strikes so we know he could. Orochimaru not doing anything when he could have is telling



Turrin said:


> Oro probably knew that so his only chance was to slowly wear down Enma with Ksunagi


You do realize Orochimaru’s fodder hidden snake hands jutsu completely shut down Enma right?

The idea that it walks Yamata when hidden snake hands in manga negged it doesn’t make sense

Orochimaru pulling out kusunagi can be explained by him not having his hands, so he had no jutsu with which he could coordinate with yamata

Orochimaru also could have just been trying to see if piercing attacks would work better



Turrin said:


> The idea that someone else can show up mid battle is a risk in any battle and he has S4 members as scouts anyway


As if they wouldn’t get murked by Danzo within seconds before they can do anything

As of Jiriaya wouldn’t blitz the hell out of them

Orochimaru doesn’t know who’s in the village and who isn’t, he doesn’t need to take this risk, and Orochiamru was right



Turrin said:


> He stabs his hand and says he’s prepared to kill Hiruzen then.


And then let’s him go right after stabbing his hand

He is ready to kill him, eventually. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t dragging it out purposefully. Otherwise why not slit his throat there?



Turrin said:


> What Feats does Yamata have that indicate it can survive Goton which scales above the 10-Tails Cataclysm?


Those elemental blasts were no bigger than one hydra head and don’t have the AOE to hit the entire thing, this would take out roughly five heads. Orochiamru had seven cut cleanly off and told Itachi his attacks were worthless and puny. This doesn’t do much

Rashomon also helps here

Yamata alone has Biju plus level physicals, Hiruzen isn’t living that



Turrin said:


> Orochimaru prepped out all the Hokages


To torture him

Not because he needed them

He explicitly states he prepped them to torture him



Turrin said:


> He clearly took Hiruzen very seriously.


Why did he not fight him with his edos

Why did he not use Hydra with his edos?

Why not summon Manda with his edos?

Why not at the bare minimum summon the two fodder snakes that stalled base Jman in this same arc?

Why not atleast use kusunagi for offence with his edos? 

Why does the databook specifically say he’s treating the fight very lightly?

You also sidestepped the fact that the first databook plainly stated Orochiamru is stronger

So there’s that


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 10, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> So basically A3 runs right through the guantlet.
> 
> Someone who fought a Bijuu to a standstill absolutely destroys them .


How about someone who beat a bijuu?

Base Killer Bee, BoS Deidara, Rasa, SM Naruto > A3 > Sannin?

OT:

A3 loses to SM Jiraiya. He’s not fast enough to tag him with Nukite without being stopped by frog call or running into a defensive SCOR that stops his progress and blows him into the ground.

-SM Jiraiya blitzed a Pain Path that easily could’ve dodged FRS and kicked him straight in the face.
-SM Jiraiya separated from full 12 share eyed Pain with a critical injury leaving a blood trail and the inability to cast most of his ninjutsu while killing a path who was seeing for them, this is arguably the most impressive pure feinting in the entire series.

Dust Cloud and Smoke Bombs make it easy for Jiraiya to land what he wants while sensing in the guise and A3 is blinded and defenseless, so he gets grabbed and thrown into Gourd or Gamabunta to the forehead (FCD/summoning straight on top of the dude) knocks him out and he suffocates under the building with muscle.

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## Turrin (Feb 11, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> Does it ever imply that it is only the strongest jutsu he has now that he lost his arms?
> 
> It’s implied that it is his magnum opus and the amalgamation of all his work, ET is not presented as the culmination of all his works
> 
> ...


1) Kabuto seems to believe Edo Tensei is Orochimaru’s Greatest Jutsu and his magnum opus:

So to me this is highly debatable at least. 

2) Kabuto also hangs back while allowing his Tensei to engage. We are told the reason for this is that the caster can be targeted to end Edo Tensei and that controlling the Edo’s requires concentration:

So Orochimaru chooses the more defensive option and largely hangs back while having the Tensei fight as well, until they are eliminated and he’s forced to get involved.

3) The Snakes managed to stop Enma movements (not deal any damage) in his Monkey Form because he couldn’t release the Ksunagi sword as it would kill Hiruzen. That has very little to do with Emma’s defensive ability while in his staff from.

Orochimaru not having hands doesn’t change the fact that he thinks Ksunagi’s penetrative powers are greater then Yamata’s, and Ksunagi didn’t do much to Enma, so Yamata would not ether.

And What Jutsu does Orochimaru have with hands that would have better penetrative power then Ksunagi (which he believes is above Yamata) he could use alongside Yamata? And if you cite some hypothetical technique you think Orochimaru should be able to use based on his hype or the novels stating he can do it, then I’m just going to say Hiruzen obliterates Orochimaru by simultaneously opening the inner gates, Amakichi Calorie Control, beast mimic fusion with Enma, etc…. And all the other stackable Konoha Power Amp Jutsu that Hiruzen knows according to his professor hype that would raise him to God Tier, because that’s only applying the same standards to Hiruzen that you would be to allow this other Jutsu for Oro.

4) It’s implied Hiruzen himself could potentially break the barrier, but he left it up because it would be difficult for him to do so and he didn’t want to let others get involved (probably because he knew they would just die).



So if Danzo or Jiriaya really showed up chances are they could break the barrier anyway. It’s also unlikely Orochimaru was counting on this to occur as I don’t believe he knew Jiriaya is in the village and I don’t think Danzo even existed as a character in P1, he would expect Danzo to interfere anyway as Danzo would want Hiruzen taken down so then he could seize power afterwards which is exactly what he did when Pain attacked the village, and what we have to assume he was doing when Oro attacked as well.

5) Hiruzen said it wouldn’t be so easy to slit his throat so it’s heavily implied that Hiruzen could escape that anyway:

Orochimaru knew this and that’s why he didn’t bother attempting something he knew Hiruzen could counter.

6) Hiruzen wouldn’t aim at individual heads he would just aim at the body the heads are connected to and destroy it with Goton

And Rashomon isn’t stopping Goton ether when it scales above the 10-Tails Cataclysm

7) Orochimaru having Tensei that mentally torture Hiruzen is not taking it easy on Hiruzen that’s another obstacle Hiruzen had to overcome that made the fight even harder. The DB specifically says this.

“The Third kept a straight face *while being pressured* to murder his Hokage comrades”

And it’s not like Orochimaru could have selected stronger Tensei and decided to hold back and just Summon ones that fucked with Hiruzen mentally, he used the Hokages against him, literally the strongest things he could have summoned at that time.

8) All the DB says is that going into the fight Orochimaru believed it was boring pass time, which just means he overestimated his abilities and underestimated Hiruzen (assuming this is even a reference to strength and not Orochimaru simply being heartless)Because by the end of the fight he was brought to the point of death and left terrified, something stated by the same DB entry:

“As one who made a mockery of lives, with a scream that resounds at the point of death, Orochimaru experiences the terror of his own passing by.”

To say how he felt before the fight began in his arrogance is more important then how he felt at the end of the fight and how it actually resolved is weird and agenda seeming in my opinion.
On top of this the same DB also says Hiruzen mastered the battle with Orochimaru and controlled it:

“He heroically mastered the fight with Orochimaru.”
“By destroying himself, he therefore controlled the battle.
—-
The first DB says Orochimaru is powerful  enough to claim he is superior to the Hiruzen. I don’t disagree with this claim, as Ce Orochimaru (with Edo Hokage is) is more powerful then Old Hiruzen (he did “win” after all) I’m simply saying it was by the slimmest of margins possible, and it’s debatable if this is true if Oro doesn’t have Edo-Hokage Prepped.

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## Symmetry (Feb 11, 2022)

Turrin said:


> So to me this is highly debatable at least.


He also says that the Edo Tensei is Tobirama’s greatest legacy, though Tobirama’s ET was even worse than Orochimaru’s which is hard to imagine being more powerful than the FTG which lets Tobirama be the speed demon he’s renowned for in the shinobi world 



Turrin said:


> We are told the reason for this is that the caster can be targeted to end Edo Tensei and that controlling the Edo’s requires concentration:


Kabuto never says he is unable to fight should he choose, Kabuto however has no reason to put himself in danger as doing so would result in him potentially losing his entire army 

Kabuto believe the jutsu to have no weakness as he himself states. The Edo tensei nerfing the user in battle would be a weakness, one Kabuto does not mention whilst claiming the ET is flawless 

Furthermore, if this was an issue, than Orochimaru could have hidden to avoid being targeted by Hiruzen as this apparently is an issue, yet he is content to pull out his sword and personally defend himself. If he can defend himself he can attack 

Not only this, but this doesn’t explain why he didn’t summon Manda, as he doesn’t need to concentrate on that. If he’s trying his hardest, why not add a biju level snake with his edos?





Turrin said:


> The Snakes managed to stop Enma movements (not deal any damage) in his Monkey Form because he couldn’t release the Ksunagi sword as it would kill Hiruzen. That has very little to do with Emma’s defensive ability while in his staff from


The snakes stop Enma from moving before the kusunagi, and because of the snakes he doesn’t reach the sword in time. Had the snakes not stopped Enma, he would have shill managed to hit Orochimaru, but his attack was completely nullified upon being constrained 

The fact that these snakes can restrain him does not bode well for him against even 


Turrin said:


> Orochimaru not having hands doesn’t change the fact that he thinks Ksunagi’s penetrative powers are greater then Yamata’s, and Ksunagi didn’t do much to Enma, so Yamata would not ether.


speaking of the kusunagi, if Hiruzen wasn’t going for a suicide move, which we have established is used to take out someone stronger than you, he would have lost the fight to the kusunagi telepathy anyways as he’d be gravely wounded. It only didn’t matter since Hiruzen planned to die anyways with.



Turrin said:


> So if Danzo or Jiriaya really showed up chances are they could break the barrier anyway. It’s also unlikely Orochimaru was counting on this to occur as I don’t believe he knew Jiriaya is in the village and I don’t think Danzo even existed as a character in P1, he would expect Danzo to interfere anyway as Danzo would want Hiruzen taken down so then he could seize power afterwards which is exactly what he did when Pain attacked the village, and what we have to assume he was doing when Oro attacked as well.


That scan doesn’t imply Hiruzen can break free though… all it says is the barrier is tough 

Orochimaru had no way to confirm who was and wasn’t in the village, no reason not to take that precaution 



Turrin said:


> Orochimaru knew this and that’s why he didn’t bother attempting something he knew Hiruzen could counter.


Just because Hiruzen says so doesn’t mean it is so. There is nothing that implies Hiruzen could have escaped there. Hiruzen showed no reaction when Orochimaru stabbed his hand besides making a surprised expression before hand meaning he was expecting an attack and did nothing 



Turrin said:


> Hiruzen wouldn’t aim at individual heads


Heads can block it 



Turrin said:


> And it’s not like Orochimaru could have selected stronger Tensei and decided to hold back and just Summon ones that fucked with Hiruzen mentally, he used the Hokages against him, literally the strongest things he could have summoned at that time.


No reason he couldn’t also summon Manda with them 

no reason he couldn’t at least engage with kusunagi from afar with the edos 



Turrin said:


> Because by the end of the fight he was brought to the point of death and left terrified, something stated by the same DB entry:
> 
> “As one who made a mockery of lives, with a scream that resounds at the point of death, Orochimaru experiences the terror of his own passing by.”


Again, because of the reaper deathseal which Hiruzen would have never gotten off if Orochimaru had added Manda, something he could have done at any point 

It was Orochimaru’s arrogance that allowed Hiruzen the chance to punch above his weight class and take him out 

In fact when Hiruzen is in The bringer of darkness Orochimaru states he’s making the edos slowly kill Hiruzen as they toy with him, showing that he even held back the power of his edos legit moments before they died 



Oro blatantly stated he was having the edos toy with him and killing him slowly purposefully instead of being done with it. If even the edos are holding back why Is Oro presumed to be going all out 



Turrin said:


> I’m simply saying it was by the slimmest of margins possible,


This would contradict the fact that the DB specified the gap is large enough that Orochimaru is able to _clearly _state he is stronger, which implies a large enough gap for their to be no room for doubt, which goes against the idea of him being only marginally stronger


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## Symmetry (Feb 12, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not even saying the poison will have zero effect on A3, it could just slow him down or something instead of paralyzing him fully


Possible for sure 

Honestly it would be completely up to Kishimoto because he could choose to let the poison kill or let A3 tank it or let the poison half work and all three would be believable and makes sense 

Up in the air for sure with that

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## Turrin (Feb 12, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> He also says that the Edo Tensei is Tobirama’s greatest legacy, though Tobirama’s ET was even worse than Orochimaru’s which is hard to imagine being more powerful than the FTG which lets Tobirama be the speed demon he’s renowned for in the shinobi world
> 
> 
> Kabuto never says he is unable to fight should he choose, Kabuto however has no reason to put himself in danger as doing so would result in him potentially losing his entire army
> ...


1) I have no problem believing Tobirama’s Edo Tensei > his FTG, even if it’s marginally weaker then Oro’s, but supplemented by Tandem Paper Bomb.

2) Kabuto is simply more cautious then Orochimaru which is why he hid further away while Orochimaru was less cautious and simply hung back behind the Edos. However this taking less precautions doesn’t mean Orochimaru was not taking any. It’s still a completely valid strategy for Orochimaru to conserve his chakra and lower his personal risk by hanging back and having the Edo’s fight. We have seen characters do this a-lot in Naruto with Summons or when they have extra Bodies like Clones or Pain Paths. 

I already explained why I think Yamata and Manda wouldn’t work here and would be a waste of chakra, and we are discussing this in the point bellow. So idk why your acting like I didn’t address this 

3) Yes, and I’m telling you they stop him in Monkey Form not Staff form; and the reason he doesn’t use his staff form to break free is because he has to worry about Hiruzen and the Ksunagi Sword. Arguing anything else would require you to argue that the Snakes your calling Fodder are above Hashirama’s Mokuton and the God Tree Branches Emma’s staff form easily negged.

4) Orochimaru specially says Hiruzen could have dodged the Ksunagi attack, he only didn’t because he was already going to die from using RDS. So no Hiruzen clearly states he needs RDS because of the Edo’s. He even seems to imply he thinks he has a chance to kill just Orochimaru, as he thinks that even if he kills Orochimaru it won’t stop the Edos and that’s why he needs RDS.

5) The scan does imply that as when someone says to do something would be tough that means it’s possible just difficult. Also Orochimaru himself states Hiruzen wouldn’t want to attempt that since he didn’t want to get others involved, so Orochimaru seems to also be counting on Hiruzen simply not wanting to try it.

And No one can be sure of who will show up in a battle scenario at random, that’s no a disadvantage Orochimaru exclusively has for this fight. If anything Orochimaru having done extensive recon on the village, has a better sense of who could show up then most characters do in most fights. Now your just trying to invent a disadvantage, come on man.

6) Hiruzen saying he can escape is something that implies he can and nothing discounts Hiruzen’s word. Hiruzen not reacting when Orochimaru stabs himself is not a counter example to this ether as Hiruzen was watching Oro’s hand and could clearly see the attack wasn’t aimed at him, so he had no reason to react.

And anyway even if Hiruzen couldn’t escape what does this really get you? That Orochimaru could have won with the ambush advantage? That Orochimaru had enough respect for his master still that he wanted to beat him in a real fight? I don’t see how this helps your point even if I were to steel-man the idea that Hiruzen couldn’t escape.

7) There is zero evidence the heads are durable enough to block an attack that scales above the 10-Tails Cataclysm 

8) I’ve already addressed Orochimaru and Manda’s involvement above. I’m not going to repeat myself here.

9) Dude the problem with playing the game of Orochimaru should have done X or Y better, is that in reality Hiruzen could have also fought smarter. Like literally the moment he went to cast RDS he could have just formed Enma Cage around himself and Orochimaru and the Edo’s wouldn’t be able to do anything to stop him (even if Manda was there). So the Hokages only using Kunai attacks to “toy” with Hiruzen is the same reason Enma doesn’t cage around Hiruzen, it was simply to build narrative tension while both simply were not going full tilt in that instance to serve the narrative. Because if Hiruzen went full tilt and used Enma cage there would have been no Tension as he would have walled everything even if Oro was using Ksunagi, Summoning Manda, and the Hokage were using the Jutsu they had.

8) Dude that’s absolutely meaningless. Because even if Hiruzen is a 99.5 in power and Orochimaru is a 100; the gap is “large enough” for Orochimaru to claim he is more powerful. All saying someone is more powerful means is that they are greater, but that only gets us to marginally greater; and marginally greater is what every other statement and how the actual battle ended implies.


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## Captain Quincy (Feb 12, 2022)

I think A3 wins all except 5 due to his sheer physicals.

But it's not like the saanin have nothing they can do against him either lol. They might not win but it's not like they would be fodder to him or anything like that.

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