# Burgess vs. Vergo



## trance (Feb 7, 2014)

Location: MarineFord (empty)

Intel: Full

Mindset: Bloodlusted

Distance: 20m


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## Goomoonryong (Feb 7, 2014)

Unlike some here I don't put Burgess on a pedestal and claim he's Jozu level, stronger than Dofla, etc. but still Burgess is very powerful and I place him around Luffys level of strength. So with that in mind Burgess wins high diff.


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## Ryuksgelus (Feb 7, 2014)

Can we wait a few weeks? If Diamante is an underdog in this 5-way then Burgess.


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## Slenderman (Feb 7, 2014)

Based on hype I think i'll pick Burgess. I believe that he's stronger than Luffy who should be stronger than Vergo albeit extreme diff. So Burgess high diff.


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## Imagine (Feb 8, 2014)

No way one of Teach's men is losing this.


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## tanman (Feb 8, 2014)

Imagine said:


> No way one of Teach's men is losing this.



Are you suggesting that BB's current weakest captain could take this?


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## trance (Feb 8, 2014)

tanman said:


> Are you suggesting that BB's current weakest captain could take this?



And how do you know Burgess is currently the weakest?


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## Dellinger (Feb 8, 2014)

Burgess wins.

Also no more Vergo wanking for fuck's sake.

Who ever says that Luffy would defeat him with extreme difficulty is an idiot.


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## November (Feb 8, 2014)

Inserting One liner
Burgess wins


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## Zorofangirl24 (Feb 8, 2014)

Serious Luffy beats Vergo with low difficulty


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## MrWano (Feb 8, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> And how do you know Burgess is currently the weakest?



That's not what he's claiming. He's asking if Imagine thinks that even the weakest BB pirate (no matter who it is), should emerge victorious against Vergo. And from the way his question is written, I don't think he'll agree if the answer is "yes".


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## Bohemian Knight (Feb 8, 2014)

No way Burgess is at above DD level. With that being said, he should still be above any of his underlings. Still, Vergo is no push over. Something tells Vergo is the strongest of DD's men and gives any high tier a run for their money. Burgess high diff.


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## J★J♥ (Feb 8, 2014)

Currently I'm more impressed by Vergo, but I'm expecting great things from Burges. Let's see what he can offer us.


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## tanman (Feb 8, 2014)

MrWano said:


> That's not what he's claiming. He's asking if Imagine thinks that even the weakest BB pirate (no matter who it is), should emerge victorious against Vergo. And from the way his question is written, I don't think he'll agree if the answer is "yes".



Precisely.


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## Slenderman (Feb 8, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Burgess wins.
> 
> Also no more Vergo wanking for fuck's sake.
> 
> Who ever says that Luffy would defeat him with extreme difficulty is an idiot.



Let's keep name calling out of this. Pls don't tell me because Law one shot him. Vergo is just that strong. He fractured Sanji's leg ffs. Then when given the chance put Smoker on his ass with one move. Plus he shaked off 2 DJ kicks and Law's counter shock. And he has the best COA shown after the timeskip compared to Luffy who couldn't block Hody Jones' teeth. It's your turn. How would Luffy take down this power house without extreme diff?


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## Bitty (Feb 8, 2014)

I don't think it's wanking or being an idiot to suggest there's a slight possibility that Vergo can give Luffy extreme-diff, a guy who tanked two direct DJz to the face, cracked Sanji's leg with 1-kick, tanked a counter shock then proceeded to fight toe to toe with Smoker & put a beating on him.........all this without going Fullbody CoA, before having to be taken out with an attack that sliced a mountain range in half(while in Fullbody CoA)............& Vergo did all this pretty much gauntlet style. You have a lot to work with arguing for a guy who was portrayed stronger than Sanji.


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## Reekee (Feb 8, 2014)

Burgess high diff.



Zorofangirl24 said:


> Serious Luffy beats Vergo with low difficulty



So does that mean serious Luffy also beats Law/Smoker/Sanji with low difficulty?


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## Lawliet (Feb 8, 2014)

Burgess got this.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 8, 2014)

Burgess wins mid-high diff.


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## tanman (Feb 8, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Burgess wins.
> 
> Also no more Vergo wanking for fuck's sake.
> 
> Who ever says that Luffy would defeat him with extreme difficulty is an idiot.



Vergo would give Luffy extreme difficulty.


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## MrWano (Feb 8, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Burgess wins.
> 
> Also no more Vergo wanking for fuck's sake.
> 
> Who ever says that Luffy would defeat him with extreme difficulty is an idiot.



Well, personally I think Luffy would take him down with high diff. But looking at Vergo's feats, I can see it being even extreme diff. and why people think so. It's certainly not an idiotic opinion.


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## Shanks (Feb 8, 2014)

If Burgess turns out to be one of the top 3 giant captains -  Mid dif. If not high diff, but I doubt burgess would be one of the weaker captains based on the fact that he's got the most spot light out of the BB pirates (bar teach) so far.


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## Slenderman (Feb 8, 2014)

Bitty pretty much summed it up. Vergo has given me the feats to show why I believe in that. It's not every day you see someone that strong guantleting people. And not getting whopped.


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## Magician (Feb 8, 2014)

Burgess mid or high diff, depending.


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## Dellinger (Feb 8, 2014)

MrWano said:


> Well, personally I think Luffy would take him down with high diff. But looking at Vergo's feats, I can see it being even extreme diff. and why people think so. It's certainly not an idiotic opinion.



It certainly is.

Luffy defeated a guy who's on the same level with Vergo without many troubles.

Vergo wouldn't give him an extreme difficulty fight.People claim that shit because they want Smoker to be as strong as Luffy.


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## Magician (Feb 8, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Luffy defeated a guy who's on the same level with Vergo without many troubles.



Like who?

If you're talking about Chinjao then prove he's on the same level as Vergo.


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## Canute87 (Feb 8, 2014)

Vergo is weaker than Flamingo.


Burgess more than likely  wins.


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## Dellinger (Feb 8, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Like who?
> 
> If you're talking about Chinjao then prove he's on the same level as Vergo.



The hype he's got,dealing with Cavendish without many problems,his Haki.

Also people don't understand that no one Vergo fought can hit as hard as Luffy and nor as fast either.


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## Slenderman (Feb 8, 2014)

Um Sanji. DCJ got mid diffed my Luffy. Vergo fought 3 M3 lvl fighters and beat one and had the upper hand against another. You're also forgetting that his COA is most likely better than Luffy's. Laying out Smoker and tanking DJ>Getting bit by Hody with COA on.


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## Dellinger (Feb 8, 2014)

Luffy clearly said that he doesn't a real problem against blunt strikes but he faces problems against piercing attacks.Plus he wasn't using hardening when Hody bit him.

Also Luffy was laughing off Caesar's gastanet while Sanji's body had much more serious injuries.I fail to see why you compare them.

Also fact is neither Smoker nor Sanji can hit as hard as Luffy.NEITHER.

Anyway Luffy will defeat someone who shits on Vergo so it doesn't matter.


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## punisher223 (Feb 8, 2014)

My two cents 

Burgess >>> Vergo  or Burgess >> Vergo

Luffy >> Vergo  

Old Chinjao > Vergo


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## Slenderman (Feb 8, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Luffy clearly said that he doesn't a real problem against blunt strikes but he faces problems against piercing attacks.Plus he wasn't using hardening when Hody bit him.
> 
> Also Luffy was laughing off Caesar's gastanet while Sanji's body had much more serious injuries.I fail to see why you compare them.
> 
> ...



Still doesn't change the fact that he didn't have sufficient haki to block it. Nami said that Sanji's body was so strong. He was bleeding very minimally. So? Vergo has the best COA feats after the timeskip. DCJ shrugged off Hawk Rifle. Vergo would do the same and even better. As of now Luffy shouldn't be put on such a pedestal until he even engages the man. Like against Croc he lost 2 times until winning. I could see the same with DD. Luffy could beat him in one go but it's hard to believe that until we get the feats.


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## tanman (Feb 8, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> It certainly is.
> 
> Luffy defeated a guy who's on the same level with Vergo without many troubles.



Except there's zero evidence that Vergo and Chinjao are on the same level. They have no relationship to each other and Vergo has the speed, durability, and endurance to actually follow through with that massive strength and CoA (the only things he truly shares with Chinjao),



White Hawk said:


> Vergo wouldn't give him an extreme difficulty fight.People claim that shit because they want Smoker to be as strong as Luffy.



Vergo would give him an extreme difficulty fight. People only claim otherwise because they want Luffy to be as strong as Doflamingo. It works both ways. And is just as dumb both ways.


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## Slenderman (Feb 8, 2014)

And before anybody asks I know that DD will eventually lose to Luffy but now is not the time unless PIS takes over to bullshit the fight.


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## Lmao (Feb 8, 2014)

Extreme difficulty implies Vergo is capable of giving Luffy a Lucci-esque fight, which he definitely can't.

Smoker was fighting & hitting him just fine before he went retard mode to get Law's heart back and Luffy is even stronger than Smoker.


OT: Burgess takes this.


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## Slenderman (Feb 8, 2014)

I don't think that it would be that bad but Luffy will be pushed to his absolute best. High diff works too. Extreme though is possible.


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## Coruscation (Feb 8, 2014)

If you think about it Luffy is stronger than Vergo in every stat except durability. It would not be an extreme difficulty fight. Damage dealt and taken is made roughly even by the fact that Luffy hits harder but he is faster and has more endurance. The word extreme is not suitable, it should be used for those fights which are something truly exceptional and sees both parties strained to the very brink and could just about go either way, or else it loses its meaning.

Burgess vs. Vergo seems to me like Vergo is just going to get overpowered. The guy mainly relied on being a toughness due to his Haki and it was his opponents that had to dodge and weave and be quicker. Against Burgess the tables would be turned, Vergo would be the one losing in a contest of power and I seriously doubt he can run circles around Burgess to turn them again.


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## mr sean66 (Feb 8, 2014)

Vergo vs luffy would be like a post time skip version of luffy vs lucci

Vergo has better armament haki an he owned m3 fighters guantles style without his full body arnament haki muscle boost thing.
Of he used his full body haki luffy will have to hit him with so many g2 plus haki attacks.... He wouldn't be able to land any g3 hits on him so the ight would last about as long as luffy va lucci

This is beacouse brawlers will always have long fights .


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## Beast (Feb 8, 2014)

Diamante, Pica and Trebal, and Vergo should be around the same level whether Vergo is stronger is up for debate, however Diamante's haki imbued was smashed rather easily by Sabo without much effort, while Sabo and JB's were at a stalement more or less.

I nevewr thought Vergo as to be that impressive and him being able to push one of the commanders (presumably 3rd) of BB's crew.

JB low- mid diff.


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## Slenderman (Feb 8, 2014)

@Corus Vergo is better in haki and defence. The guy had no problem tanking shit from everywhere and having better COA than Smoker and Sanji and Luffy. The hawk moves won't be doing shit with full body armaments, he would have to use multiple G3 moves which take time. Vergo just keeps getting back up. The guy got the upper hand on Sanji while fighting Sanji at his own game. DD trust this man the most for good reason. Luffy would also get back up too but his slow but strong moves would be the ones to got o as fast paced moves like RH and HR won't be enough to put Vergo down.


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 9, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> @Corus Vergo is better in haki and defence. The guy had no problem tanking shit from everywhere and having better COA than Smoker and Sanji and Luffy. The hawk moves won't be doing shit with full body armaments, he would have to use multiple G3 moves which take time. Vergo just keeps getting back up. The guy got the upper hand on Sanji while fighting Sanji at his own game. DD trust this man the most for good reason. Luffy would also get back up too but his slow but strong moves would be the ones to got o as fast paced moves like RH and HR won't be enough to put Vergo down.



If by "got the upperhand on Sanji" you mean got his ass sent flying twice from DJ kicks then yes you'd be correct.

And your seriously underestimating Luffy's strength. Vergo was getting knocked around hard by regular Haki blows from Smoker  and . Now just imagine what Luffy's capable of doing to him with G2 Haki punches like . Red Hawk attacks do even *more damage * so I fail to see why you think Luffy's attacks won't do anything to Vergo.


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## Beast (Feb 9, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> @Corus Vergo is better in haki and defence. The guy had no problem tanking shit from everywhere and having better COA than Smoker and Sanji and *Luffy*. The hawk moves won't be doing shit with full body armaments, he would have to use multiple G3 moves which take time. Vergo just keeps getting back up. The guy got the upper hand on Sanji while fighting Sanji at his own game. DD trust this man the most for good reason. Luffy would also get back up too but his slow but strong moves would be the ones to got o as fast paced moves like RH and HR won't be enough to put Vergo down.


What        ?


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## MrWano (Feb 9, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> It certainly is.
> 
> Luffy defeated a guy who's on the same level with Vergo without many troubles.
> 
> Vergo wouldn't give him an extreme difficulty fight.People claim that shit because they want Smoker to be as strong as Luffy.



I'm of the opinion that Luffy would take him down with high diff, so I won't rationalize for extreme.
The supporters of that can do it themselves. But even if Luffy would need the highest amount of difficulty with Vergo, it wouldn't mean that Smoker is just as strong as him. 

Getting your opinion across is easier when you don't insult the opposition, btw. Otherwise you just risk getting ad hominem replies.


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## tanman (Feb 9, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> If you think about it Luffy is stronger than Vergo in every stat except durability. It would not be an extreme difficulty fight.



So marginally better, in my opinion, that it would be extreme.


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## Vengeance (Feb 9, 2014)

Burgess should take this, but with at least high difficulty imo.


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## Magentabeard (Feb 9, 2014)

Luffy would beat Vergo high mid diff or low high diff, so Burgess takes this no doubt.
Vergo never came off as strong after getting knocked around by Smoker and fighting equally with not too serious Sanji, then getting one shotted by law who was 100% confident he could beat him.


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## Canute87 (Feb 9, 2014)

tanman said:


> So marginally better, in my opinion, that it would be extreme.



You think Luffy is only marginally better than Vergo in speed and damage output?


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## Coruscation (Feb 9, 2014)

> Corus Vergo is better in haki and defence.



COA Haki isn't a stat as such. It adds to the stats of offense and defense. 



> So marginally better, in my opinion, that it would be extreme.



What ever indicates Luffy is only minimally superior to Vergo in speed? Sanji and Smoker both had the edge on him in speed and Luffy is faster than both. Attack power is highly questionable given that Smoker was able to have a physical throwdown with him. Luffy with G2+Hardening shouldn't only have a minimal edge then. When you put special moves like Red Hawk into the equation it becomes further questionable, and of course this is also working under the assumption that G3 is completely unusable due to its speed. And as for endurance, Luffy typically has the highest endurance of anyone on his general level. Vergo's forte was durability, not endurance. There's no real reason to think Luffy is only minimally better than Vergo in endurance. So you might think the difference is only absolutely minimal to where Luffy would be pushed to his absolute limits trying to defeat Vergo, but I don't see what in the manga supports that.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 9, 2014)

Physical Strength=who knows for now Luffy gets the benefit of the doubt.
Speed=Luffy
Reflexes=Benefit of the doubt again Luffy.
Attack power/destructive force=Luffy.
Durability=Vergo.
Endurance=Luffy cause Luffy.

Luffy wins. High diff.


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## Canute87 (Feb 9, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Physical Strength=who knows for now Luffy gets the benefit of the doubt.
> Speed=Luffy
> Reflexes=Benefit of the doubt again Luffy.
> Attack power/destructive force=Luffy.
> ...



Benefit of the doubt for reflexes can probably have some logic to it.

Reflexes normally kick in when you feel that your life is in danger on a constant basis.  He might  have just focused on being durable and stopped having to worry about dodging attacks look how many clean hits sanji gave him and he just took it like a boss.  There was also smoker hitting him up as well.

Sanji with the counters, Smoker with the hits and Vergo basically walking up to an easily dodgabe attack from Law.  There is a trend here.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 9, 2014)

I actually don't hold Vergo getting hit agasint him cause the dude is a tank as you basically point out.  That's just how he fights, he takes your hit and bashes your face in. Just like Marco and Jozu are not going to be dancing around there opponents attacks, they take your attacks and make you try there's.

It's just that of course with that being said Vergo has no outstanding reflex feat so I'm not going to say he has equal or better reflexes then luffy. It's also hard to comment on reflexes because someones ability to dodge is also dependent on there speed. So Vergo could see a attack coming and start moving before Luffy but since luffy is faster so he gets out of the way faster then vergo.


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## Shanks (Feb 9, 2014)

Hmmmmm... people speak about Vergo as if what you would do if you were Vergo. Vergo is a confident pain-man who just love tanking shit (like Teach) and believe he is capable of tanking more than he should. That's why lost to law.

And if he fight Luffy (or anyone around that level), he will feel the tickle on Luffy base gun and he would turn out to be even more cocky and then out of nor where "Thor Elephant Gun" and game over. Sure, Vergo can dodge or evade, but he won't, so he'll get 1 shot again.

Intellect is very important in a mortor kombat..


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## Slenderman (Feb 10, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> If by "got the upperhand on Sanji" you mean got his ass sent flying twice from DJ kicks then yes you'd be correct.
> 
> And your seriously underestimating Luffy's strength. Vergo was getting knocked around hard by regular Haki blows from Smoker  and . Now just imagine what Luffy's capable of doing to him with G2 Haki punches like . Red Hawk attacks do even *more damage * so I fail to see why you think Luffy's attacks won't do anything to Vergo.



G2 punches that fodders like Hyouzou can react too and block.  Hawk Rifle got outright tanked by Chinjao. Vergo probably has better COA the DCJ. His G3 moves are the ones that will be doing lots of damage. Also i'm sure you saw the part where he tanked both kicks from Sanji then proceeded too break the strongest part of Sanji's body . Which made Sanji say he couldn't fight like that for too much longer iirc. Getting sent flying is a testament to Sanji's strength. Breaking Sanji's leg and tanking all of his moves is the upper hand. You do realize that those punches hardly did anything to him? And when given the chance laid out Smoker.


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## Slenderman (Feb 10, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> COA Haki isn't a stat as such. It adds to the stats of offense and defense.
> 
> 
> 
> What ever indicates Luffy is only minimally superior to Vergo in speed? Sanji and Smoker both had the edge on him in speed and Luffy is faster than both. Attack power is highly questionable given that Smoker was able to have a physical throwdown with him. Luffy with G2+Hardening shouldn't only have a minimal edge then. When you put special moves like Red Hawk into the equation it becomes further questionable, and of course this is also working under the assumption that G3 is completely unusable due to its speed. And as for endurance, Luffy typically has the highest endurance of anyone on his general level. Vergo's forte was durability, not endurance. There's no real reason to think Luffy is only minimally better than Vergo in endurance. So you might think the difference is only absolutely minimal to where Luffy would be pushed to his absolute limits trying to defeat Vergo, but I don't see what in the manga supports that.



Would you say that Vergo has better defense than Luffy?


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## Lord Melkor (Feb 10, 2014)

Burgess takes it by hype and powerscaling. Something like lower end of high difficulty I would say.

As high ranking member of BB's crew he should be superior to Doflamingo's seats and his performance against Sabo is so far better than Diamante's. 

Also, I do not see Vergo easily tanking Red Hawk. That should definately damage him more than Sanji's attacks.

People forget that Hodi was swallowing dozens of these pills to barely tank Luffy's attacks.

I see Vergo giving Luffy high difficulty at most, not extreme.


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## Dellinger (Feb 10, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> G2 punches that fodders like Hyouzou can react too and block.  Hawk Rifle got outright tanked by Chinjao. Vergo probably has better COA the DCJ. His G3 moves are the ones that will be doing lots of damage. Also i'm sure you saw the part where he tanked both kicks from Sanji then proceeded too break the strongest part of Sanji's body . Which made Sanji say he couldn't fight like that for too much longer iirc. Getting sent flying is a testament to Sanji's strength. Breaking Sanji's leg and tanking all of his moves is the upper hand. You do realize that those punches hardly did anything to him? And when given the chance laid out Smoker.



That's why some casual G2 attacks send OD Hody and Caesar flying like bitches.
That scene was pure bullshit from Oda's part nothing more.

Also Luffy managed to break through Chinjao's Haki defense and knock him back coughing blood.

Luffy is a superior fighter to Vergo.


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## SuperSpider (Feb 10, 2014)

Burgess so far has been comparable to the other 3 originals (Van Auger, Lafitte, and Doc Q). If anything, this suggests that he isn't among the top fighters in BB's crew. Would you think for example, that van auger can already beat vergo, and yet he is still going to be powering up over the series? How would Usopp beat someone at that level then? 

Diamante being a seat member and so is comparable to Vergo and has watched burgess defeat block A and watched him use surge elbow yet hasn't panicked even once and still believes he can win this. Vergo's feats so far are more impressive as well.

So for now I would give the win to Vergo high dif. until Burgess can show something more impressive.


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## Turrin (Feb 10, 2014)

Vergo is around Sanji's level as far as I'm concerned, and would be defeated by Zoro high diff, and Luffy mid diff.


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## monkey d ace (Feb 10, 2014)

burgess high diff.


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## Slenderman (Feb 10, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> That's why some casual G2 attacks send OD Hody and Caesar flying like bitches.
> That scene was pure bullshit from Oda's part nothing more.
> 
> Also Luffy managed to break through Chinjao's Haki defense and knock him back coughing blood.
> ...



Gettign sent flying is impressive to the person who did it but at the end of the day CC was taking many shots form Luffy. G2 punches did something but not a whole lot of damage if he did just one. DCJ still tanked it like it was nothing. Very minimal blood came out. The fact of the matter is that DCJ tanked it and treated it like it was nothing. Luffy is a superior fighter but you're not giving Vergo enough respect especially when old, deformed head DCJ tanked a hawk move.


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## Slenderman (Feb 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Vergo is around Sanji's level as far as I'm concerned, and would be defeated by Zoro high diff, and Luffy mid diff.



What makes you think that Luffy will mid diff him and please don't say because Law one shot him.


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## Dellinger (Feb 10, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Gettign sent flying is impressive to the person who did it but at the end of the day CC was taking many shots form Luffy. G2 punches did something but not a whole lot of damage if he did just one. DCJ still tanked it like it was nothing. Very minimal blood came out. The fact of the matter is that DCJ tanked it and treated it like it was nothing. Luffy is a superior fighter but you're not giving Vergo enough respect especially when old, deformed head DCJ tanked a hawk move.



I'm giving enough credit to Vergo but extreme difficulty?Hell no.
You can't make someone go to the extremes when he's superior in almost every stat to you.That doesn't make sense.

CC was taking casual shots from Luffy and you know that.When Luffy got serious Caesar was fodderized.


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## Shanks (Feb 10, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> What makes you think that Luffy will mid diff him and please don't say because Law one shot him.



Because Vergo believes he's capable of tanking a Thor Elephant Gun instead of dodging.


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## Captain Altintop (Feb 10, 2014)

Currently, PIS / canon:

Luffy 100 
Law 99
Vergo 98
Burgess 98 *
Diamante 98 *
Jimbei 97
Zoro 95
Pica 92 *
Sanji 92
Smoker 91
Trebol 88 *

* Yet to be shown next times.
I didn't count Sabo because he is at least one step above them.

I can't finally decide between Vergo and Burgess. Since I recommend Burgess as a brawler and grabber, 
he can use some unknown wrestling moves but on the other hand Vergo can attack pretty fast and showed great durability.
I except Burgess to be similar durable so I can just say extreme diff either way. 
Leaning towards Burgess 51/100 since he has the reputation of being one of 10 Captains, 
maybe 5th strongest Captain which is fine to compare with upper M3 range as seen above.


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## Slenderman (Feb 10, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> I'm giving enough credit to Vergo but extreme difficulty?Hell no.
> You can't make someone go to the extremes when he's superior in almost every stat to you.That doesn't make sense.
> 
> CC was taking *casual* shots from Luffy and you know that.When Luffy got serious Caesar was fodderized.



Minimally in all except for speed and maybe some others. Luffy has better offense and Vergo has better defense. You're over exaggerating that. Luffy was serious the 2nd time against CC. The last time he got bloodlusted. Serious means you want to take them down but bloodlusted means you want to really put them down. So tell me, how much diff would verog give Luffy?


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## Slenderman (Feb 10, 2014)

Sabo said:


> Because Vergo believes he's capable of tanking a Thor Elephant Gun instead of dodging.



I doubt Luffy would pull that off right off the bat. Also Vergo probably wouldn't just sit there and wait for Thor EG. While Luffy tries to gain momentum he could soru up and Luffy would leave an opening when he raises his fist up. Like I said before. Hawk moves and g3 moves will hurt verog but his chances of tanking them well would probably be high. G3 moves would mess him up but they take time and provide openings. With knowledge on Luffy, Luffy won't surprise him with it.


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## Dellinger (Feb 10, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Minimally in all except for speed and maybe some others. Luffy has better offense and Vergo has better defense. You're over exaggerating that. Luffy was serious the 2nd time against CC. The last time he got bloodlusted. Serious means you want to take them down but bloodlusted means you want to really put them down. So tell me, how much diff would verog give Luffy?



At best high difficulty.He isn't pushing Luffy to the extremes.


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## Slenderman (Feb 10, 2014)

Then I guess we have to agree to disagree.


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## Dellinger (Feb 10, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Then I guess we have to agree to disagree.



When Luffy defeats Doflamingo what will you say?


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## Slenderman (Feb 10, 2014)

Well it depends on how he beats him. I hope DD doesn't forget his moves and gets the disease PIS. If DD doesn't catch that disease Luffy can mid diff Vergo.


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 10, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> G2 punches that fodders like Hyouzou can react too and block.  Hawk Rifle got outright tanked by Chinjao. Vergo probably has better COA the DCJ. His G3 moves are the ones that will be doing lots of damage. Also i'm sure you saw the part where he tanked both kicks from Sanji then proceeded too break the strongest part of Sanji's body . Which made Sanji say he couldn't fight like that for too much longer iirc. Getting sent flying is a testament to Sanji's strength. Breaking Sanji's leg and tanking all of his moves is the upper hand. You do realize that those punches hardly did anything to him? And when given the chance laid out Smoker.


Considering Zoro made Monster Hyouzou look like a complete and utter tool, it's safe to assume that Luffy drastically held back on base Hyouzou.

"Out right tanked?" What the hell are you talking about? Luffy's Red Hawk rifle *broke through Don Chinjao's CoA hardened defense* and sent him knocking on the ground. Now considering Smokers regular Coa blows were enough to knock Vergo around left and right, Luffy's RH (as well as his G2 attacks imbued with Haki) will *most definitely damage* Vergo. 

Sanji's leg didn't "break", it only got cracked. If it was broken, then he wouldn't have been able to walk for the remainder of the arc. That said, a prolonged confrontation with Vergo would've most likely been troublesome for Sanji.

How could you look at those scans I showed and honestly say that Smoker's hits "didn't do anything"? And Vergo didn't even find that opening himself. Smoker literally gave him that chance by purposely expanding himself to retrieve Laws heart and pay off his debt. That said, the fact that his Bamboo attack did so much damage is definitely a testament to Vergo's power.


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## Slenderman (Feb 10, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Considering Zoro made Monster Hyouzou look like a complete and utter tool, it's safe to assume that Luffy drastically held back on base Hyouzou.
> 
> "Out right tanked?" What the hell are you talking about? Luffy's Red Hawk rifle *broke through Don Chinjao's CoA hardened defense* and sent him knocking on the ground. Now considering Smokers regular Coa blows were enough to knock Vergo around left and right, Luffy's RH (as well as his G2 attacks imbued with Haki) will *most definitely damage* Vergo.
> 
> ...



Swords are more lethal than fists. I doubt Luffy hold back on people trying to kill him. That's stupid. Firstly show me where DCJ is on the ground instead of making conjecture. Sending someone flying is different from actually hurting them which Luffy didn't do very well. Who cares if he knocked Vergo around? Vergo still tanked it like nothing. The fact of the matter is that DCJ tanked it. No matter how much you want to turn around the scene to fit your agenda that's what happened.  

Perhaps break wasn't the right word. Fracture should work. But still break and crack are like two sides of a coin. He slightly broke it. Also Sanji looked like he would have lost as he stated that continuing the fight would have been bad for him. Vergo fractured the hardest part of Sanji's body. 

Smoker simply hardly did anything to him than knock him back a bit and make him bleed a bit. That's basically what Jozu did to Kuzan which was minimal damage. The res is helping my case.


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 10, 2014)

You can't be serious....are you honestly implying that base Hyouzyu was enough of a threat to Luffy so that he'd go all out in his attack just because the guy had swords? 

RH rifle sent Chinchao knocking backwards  (yes he touched the ground). And the sent flying part isn't even whats most notable, what's significant is that the attack had enough power to completely break through his CoA defense . You seriously need to stop underestimating the damage output Luffy is capable of by saying baseless crap like "it didn't do much". 

Sanji's comment implies that Vergo's defense would've been troublesome, not that he would've outright lost.

No...Smokers attacks were definitely damaging Vergo. This scan  would be an example of an attack doing hardly anything (Blueno didn't even move an inch). And blood loss is not the sole indicator of damage. By your logic, I can say that Jozu's brilliant punk did "hardly anything" to Crocodile since it sent him flying and only made him "bleed a bit" but saying that would be fucking stupid because again.....blood loss isn't the only indicator damage taken.

Huh? How the hell does me saying Vergo's bamboo attack hits hard help your case? Your argument is that "Luffy's RH attacks won't be doing shit" to Vergo. I'm arguing that it most definitely will based on what's shown in the manga.


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## tanman (Feb 10, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> What ever indicates Luffy is only minimally superior to Vergo in speed? Sanji and Smoker both had the edge on him in speed and Luffy is faster than both.



I don't recall that Smoker ever had the edge in speed. Smoker did manage to hit Vergo, but that isn't really enough to indicate that he was faster especially when more than half of his attacks were dodged and he showed against Sanji that he's fine with tanking attacks rather than making the effort of dodging them.

Sanji might have had a slight edge in speed, but even G2 Luffy would be hard pressed to tag a Sanji that didn't want to be tagged.



Coruscation said:


> Attack power is highly questionable given that Smoker was able to have a physical throwdown with him.



Hmm?
I don't really see what you mean by this. Smoker being able to knock Vergo a good distance somehow disproves that he can match Luffy's attack power? Durability has a relationship with strength but they certainly aren't the same thing. If you're implying that Smoker being able to hold back Vergo's stick or his kicks means his attack power is insufficient then I think you're severely underestimating all of what Smoker can hold back with his jutte or the kind of load Sanji can normally bear with his leg.




Coruscation said:


> Luffy with G2+Hardening shouldn't only have a minimal edge then. When you put special moves like Red Hawk into the equation it becomes further questionable,



I don't see why Smoker's jutte couldn't just easily block or parry a G2 Hardened attack.

Luffy can only really be said to have higher damage output at all when he's using G3 or gatlings. Both of which would be countered excellently by Vergo's fully hardened form.

But I agree that moves like Red Hawk give him the victory.



Coruscation said:


> and of course this is also working under the assumption that G3 is completely unusable due to its speed. And as for endurance, Luffy typically has the highest endurance of anyone on his general level. Vergo's forte was durability, not endurance. There's no real reason to think Luffy is only minimally better than Vergo in endurance. So you might think the difference is only absolutely minimal to where Luffy would be pushed to his absolute limits trying to defeat Vergo, but I don't see what in the manga supports that.



As far as endurance goes, Vergo managed to get the upper hand on Sanji and defeat Smoker without showing any signs of stamina issues. And much like G3, we're assuming that Vergo's fully hardened form is unusable because of speed issues. If G3 comes into play, Vergo's hardened form will come into play. 

In my opinion, there simply isn't much room for a physical fighter to better than Sanji and Smoker and still significantly worse than Luffy. This applies to all stats. I seem to think that Sanji and Smoker have physical stats (excluding damage output) much closer to Luffy than you do.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 10, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> I'm giving enough credit to Vergo but extreme difficulty?Hell no.
> *You can't make someone go to the extremes when he's superior in almost every stat to you.That doesn't make sense.*
> 
> CC was taking casual shots from Luffy and you know that.When Luffy got serious Caesar was fodderized.



And yet people claim Zoro can Extreme Diff/Tie with Luffy all the time.

When the only stats that are even arguable that Zoro has over Luffy, are Endurance and Lethality/Attack power. In terms of endurance a difference would be beyond miniscule as well. 

Not that i don't disagree with what your saying. Vergo with what he has shown and his hype level is not giving Luffy a Lucci/Croc level fight.


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## Coruscation (Feb 11, 2014)

> I don't recall that Smoker ever had the edge in speed.



It's implied and shown that he did because they tried to hit each other for a while and it ultimately ended up with Smoker's fist to Vergo's face sending him flying. As the fight went on we were again shown Smoker being the one to land a heavy elbow. Vergo clearly had higher defense and an edge in attack power too, so if Smoker wasn't better in speed that fight would have been extremely one-sided, which it was nowhere near.



> Sanji might have had a slight edge in speed, but even G2 Luffy would be hard pressed to tag a Sanji that didn't want to be tagged.



That's a completely baseless statement which you seem to just have made up out of nowhere to have something to say here. Why would G2 Luffy have problems hitting Sanji? That implies Sanji would make Luffy look like an utter weakling without G2. It is Sanji who would have dire issues dealing with the speed of a doped up Luffy.



> I don't really see what you mean by this. Smoker being able to knock Vergo a good distance somehow disproves that he can match Luffy's attack power?



Smoker stopping Vergo's kick with his own and having an extended relatively even-looking physical throwdown with him strongly suggests it. Smoker isn't matching a G2 Luffy in that way unless Smoker's physical stats make Luffy's look like ass, which surely you aren't going to suggest.



> I don't see why Smoker's jutte couldn't just easily block or parry a G2 Hardened attack.



What? You are gravely downplaying G2 to say that. Why would Luffy doping himself and using Hardening at the same time not be anything special to deal with for a Smoker who only uses Hardening? Why would Luffy be so drastically inferior in physical stats? The reasonable assumption until otherwise indicated is that Luffy is comparable in physical stats to Smoker. Smoker certainly does not have superior feats and Luffy has always been a veritable beast in strength. So with G2, by all rights he would be significantly superior and to say significantly instead of drastically is to take for granted that the "G2 has become weaker since the timeskip" theory is true, which I do believe.



> As far as endurance goes, Vergo managed to get the upper hand on Sanji and defeat Smoker without showing any signs of stamina issues.



The Sanji encounter was hardly long enough to matter in terms of endurance. He did not legitimately defeat Smoker, Smoker let himself be defeated. This is nowhere near enough to say that he nearly matches the person who ran the Impel Down-Marineford gauntlet and generally has the highest endurance of anyone on his own level.



> I seem to think that Sanji and Smoker have physical stats (excluding damage output) much closer to Luffy than you do.



You seem to be drastically downplaying Gear Second to think that. Why would Sanji and Smoker be very close in physical stats to a Luffy who is doping himself to gain better physical stats? It makes no sense and there's nothing in the manga that implies it. Vergo was slightly inferior to both in speed whereas Luffy is superior to both and it shouldn't only be slightly. In attack power, Smoker was having what by all accounts looked like an evenly matched physical throwdown with Vergo before he lost on purpose. Smoker should not be going head to head with a doped Luffy in that way.


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