# Strongest Person Madara can beat without PS?



## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 16, 2015)

Who do you think is the strongest person Madara can beat without PS?

Location: Valley of the End

Starting Distance: 200 meters

Intel: Only general knowledge like chakra natures

Restrictions: PS

Edit: This is VOTE Madara without PS and he also does not have Kurama


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

Nagato.


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## ARGUS (Feb 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Nagato.



Sigh, CT alone says hi so does preta 

OT - without PS, madara really isn't that much, so the stongest he could beat is SM Naruto


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 16, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Sigh, CT alone says hi so does preta
> 
> OT - without PS, madara really isn't that much, so the stongest he could beat is SM Naruto


This he isn't anything without PS CT ends him


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## Kyu (Feb 16, 2015)

In a situation where Madara goes all out from the get-go? His legged Susano'o remains a menacing threat to those lacking the destructive power and stamina to contend. 1v1 he should beat the S/T Hokage and any MS user(bar Dual MS Obito). Itachi may also be the exception if he's able to successfully setup Izanami.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 17, 2015)

Madara was in Sage Mode, so he had a V3 Natural Energy Susano.

All things considered, a normal V3 Susano isn't stronger than a single one of the bijuu. Madara stated his PS slashes rivaled the power of a bijuu, not any other version of his Susano.

If his Perfect Susano _rivals_ a single bijuu, how the fuck does his imperfect Susano transcend the power of 7 bijuu?


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## Nikushimi (Feb 17, 2015)

EMS Madara still has the Kyuubi; he should be able to handle the likes of Nagato, Itachi, Minato, and Tobirama.

Edo Madara lacks the Kyuubi, but has immortality, infinite chakra, Mokuton, black chakra rods, and the Rinnegan--with presumable access to all of its paths. He would likely be able to wrest away control of the Kyuubi and defeat his PS-restricted EMS self.

If it's revived Sage Rinnegan Madara or any Juubi Jinchuuriki variant of that, then it goes without saying that no one below Hashirama's tier is even touching him...


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## Nikushimi (Feb 17, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Madara was in Sage Mode, so he had a V3 Natural Energy Susano.
> 
> All things considered, a normal V3 Susano isn't stronger than a single one of the bijuu. Madara stated his PS slashes rivaled the power of a bijuu, not any other version of his Susano.
> 
> If his Perfect Susano _rivals_ a single bijuu, how the fuck does his imperfect Susano transcend the power of 7 bijuu?



Fan translations can be pretty dodgy; someone who speaks Japanese fluently might want to look into that and verify what Madara actually said.

PS struck me as being...obviously a lot fucking stronger than any of the Bijuu... It sliced open mountains with the air discharged from a stroke of its blade. None of the Bijuu can cause that kind of damage with physical attacks alone. Shinsuusenju was swatting bladed Bijuudamas out of the air like flies and PS at least managed to protect the Kyuubi from several blows that made it through. The five Kage were fucking helpless against it. You can't expect any reasonable person to compare a Jutsu like that to Bijuu like Shukaku or Matatabi or Isobu, who were subdued by two people or in some cases even just one, at the level of Hidan, Kakuzu, 4th Kazekage, Deidara, 3rd Raikage, etc. There's such a huge, obvious gulf between most of the Bijuu and PS; the full Kyuubi is debatable, but only just that.

So it really depends what Madara meant by that... Comparable to any one of the Bijuu. Comparable specifically to the full Kyuubi. Comparable to all of the Bijuu collectively. These answers all have profoundly different implications.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 17, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Madara was in Sage Mode, so he had a V3 Natural Energy Susano.
> 
> All things considered, a normal V3 Susano isn't stronger than a single one of the bijuu. Madara stated his PS slashes rivaled the power of a bijuu, not any other version of his Susano.
> 
> If his Perfect Susano _rivals_ a single bijuu, how the fuck does his imperfect Susano transcend the power of 7 bijuu?



madara wasnt in sage mode. the hashirama implant was in sage mode.

madara said that PS rivals the biju, not a single biju. in other words, the power of all the biju.
the tailed beasts fall under the category of something in the universe, therefore they would be shattered by its blade according to madaras statement.

PS>the power of all the biju.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 17, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the tailed beasts fall under the category of something in the universe, therefore they would be shattered by its blade according to madaras statement.



In all fairness, Madara was full of so much shit when he said that.

Let's please not use that reasoning.

I do agree, however, that PS makes the Bijuu look like trash.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 17, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> In all fairness, Madara was full of so much shit when he said that.
> 
> Let's please not use that reasoning.
> 
> I do agree, however, that PS makes the Bijuu look like trash.



madaras words hold water according to feats. the blade of his PS has shattered everything that it has touched. it even sliced shinsuusenjus arms. 

there has only been one exception where a PS blade has not cut through the target.

the only thing that is hasnt cut is a six paths enhanced kurama.

other than that, nothing is taking its slash while being in one piece afterwards.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 17, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> madaras words hold water according to feats. the blade of his PS has shattered everything that it has touched. it even sliced shinsuusenjus arms.
> 
> there has only been one exception where a PS blade has not cut through the target.
> 
> ...



I shouldn't need to explain that the universe is a big place full of big and complicated things, and that PS amounts to less than a glimmer on a speck of dust in the grand scheme of the cosmos...

And as you pointed out, there is a verified limit to the blade's destructive power.

I.e., Madara was full of shit.

Destroying all things in the universe...is shameless hyperbole. 8th Gate Gai would break that shit off between his fingers and sodomize Madara's PS with it.


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## ARGUS (Feb 17, 2015)

No normal susanoo bar PS could even tank a single TBB 
Then How the fuck does that make V3 susanoo above the likes of a bijuu? Especially When it got obliterated by a hirudora and kirin, 
Both of which are not even close to a TBB


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## StarWanderer (Feb 17, 2015)

> Sigh, CT alone says hi so does preta
> 
> OT - without PS, madara really isn't that much, so the stongest he could beat is SM Naruto



Madara is a top dog even without PS. 

Also, why cant Madara shot at CT with multiple Yasaka Magatama before any rock/item was pulled at it to destroy it?


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## StarWanderer (Feb 17, 2015)

> Especially When it got obliterated by a hirudora and kirin



Hirudora >>>> any Nagato's offensive tecnique, except CT.

And Madara's imperfect Susanoo >>>>>>>> Itachi's imperfect Susanoo.


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## ARGUS (Feb 17, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara is a top dog even without PS.
> 
> Also, why cant Madara shot at CT with multiple Yasaka Magatama before any rock/item was pulled at it to destroy it?



Without his PS. He's strong but not strong enough to beat people on nagatos level  
Yeah No, YM is not doing shit when it needed te extra FRS and TBB to take out the core, 

CT is aimed towards madara, and he gets constantly bombarded till he can't break free and dies



StarWanderer said:


> Hirudora >>>> any Nagato's offensive tecnique, except CT.
> 
> And Madara's imperfect Susanoo >>>>>>>> Itachi's imperfect Susanoo.



Reading my full post would've helped you but you clearly ignored it 
Hirudora and Kirin were compared to a TBB and yah they are nothing infront of it 

CST is also above the likes of hirudora so that also says hi 

ANd the gap between itachis susanoo and madaras isn't even that big 

You need to provide proof on this one too


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> I shouldn't need to explain that the universe is a big place full of big and complicated things, and that PS amounts to less than a glimmer on a speck of dust in the grand scheme of the cosmos...
> 
> And as you pointed out, there is a verified limit to the blade's destructive power.
> 
> ...



 Oh fuck, please post this in the Prime Nagato vs. Madara thread. Everyone needs to realize that everything has a limit, even Preta Path.


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## Kai (Feb 17, 2015)

Possibly Tobirama.

With Kyuubi, possibly BM Naruto.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 17, 2015)

> Without his PS. He's strong but not strong enough to beat people on nagatos level



There are not many people on Nagato's level. But anwyay, Madara beats anyone in Akatsuki in a duel without PS. And most of other Narutoverse characters too.



> Yeah No, YM is not doing shit when it needed te extra FRS and TBB to take out the core,
> 
> CT is aimed towards madara, and he gets constantly bombarded till he can't break free and dies



Nagato has never aimed CT at anyone - he could aim it in the air. I dont know why couldnt he aim it at any character in Manga.

And the fact CT was destroyed not only by YM doesnt mean it cant be destroyed by only YM. Madara's multiple YM shots right at the core could be enough to destibilise it.

And he could withstand it with his imperfect legged Susanoo. His imperfect Susanoo withstood Kurama's elbow hit and deflected planetary rasengan effortlessly. 



> Reading my full post would've helped you but you clearly ignored it
> Hirudora and Kirin were compared to a TBB and yah they are nothing infront of it



Yeah, TBB is above Hirudora, or Kirin, but at the same time Hirudora is superior than even Nagato's most powerfull ST. Kirin is debatable however.



> ANd the gap between itachis susanoo and madaras isn't even that big



It is big. Madara's imperfect Susanoo has better durability feats


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## Kai (Feb 17, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> And the fact CT was destroyed not only by YM doesnt mean it cant be destroyed by only YM. Madara's multiple YM shots right at the core could be enough to destibilise it.


We should know by now as the series is over, that in Kishi's manga a scenario arranged in that way is precisely what it means. Madara's string of Yasaka Magatama was also blocked by Onoki and Gaara's golem and mother defense:


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## StarWanderer (Feb 17, 2015)

Kai said:


> We should know by now as the series is over, that in Kishi's manga a scenario arranged in that way is precisely what it means. Madara's string of Yasaka Magatama was also blocked by Onoki and Gaara's golem and mother defense:



CT core has no durability feats. But anyway, Madara's imperfect Susanoo could be dence enough to withstand CT.


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## ARGUS (Feb 17, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> There are not many people on Nagato's level. But anwyay, Madara beats anyone in Akatsuki in a duel without PS. And most of other Narutoverse characters too.



Nagato says hi, rinnegan obito says hi 
people in nagatos tier would be chars such as DSM Kabuto, KCM Minato, Rinnegan Obito w/o BIjuu, Killer Bee, KCM/KCSM naruto, EMS sasuke w/o PS



> Nagato has never aimed CT at anyone - he could aim it in the air. I dont know why couldnt he aim it at any character in Manga.


Once the CT forms and gets to a certain size, then itll be madara getting sucked in just how it happened to kyuubi during the pain arc



> And the fact CT was destroyed not only by YM doesnt mean it cant be destroyed by only YM. Madara's multiple YM shots right at the core could be enough to destibilise it.


Except YM has no destructive feats to suggest it could even put a scratch on it,
it was aided by FRS and a TBB, both of which take a steamy hot dump on YM 

CT tanked a KN6 TBB like it was nothing, 
YM gets tanked much easier, and the core forms to an extent where madara wont be able to do shit 



> And he could withstand it with his imperfect legged Susanoo. His imperfect Susanoo withstood Kurama's elbow hit and deflected planetary rasengan effortlessly.



THhe rocks would completely surround him and he would be suffocated unable to even breath let alone maintain susanoo and break free 

rasengan is trash, dont see why you are mentioning that

 and his susanoo got bitch slapped, not to mention that susanoo was boosted by senjutsu 



> Yeah, TBB is above Hirudora, or Kirin, but at the same time Hirudora is superior than even Nagato's most powerfull ST. Kirin is debatable however.


No its not, 
if nagato focuses all of CSTs force onto madara then its GG, his susanoo would get pushed back kilometers away and the impact on the ground would eradicate him 

hirudora is not a village buster, and despite the factt that it had to go through GSB, kisamme sstill managed to survive it, so its also not as pinpointed as CST could be 



> It is big. Madara's imperfect Susanoo has better durability feats


What feats? 
one was busted by hirudora and the other was busted by kirin 
both hirudora and kirin are comparable to each other 

whats worse is that there is literally no difference in madaras and itachis susanoo, 
size isnt the main reason for durability, its the amount of layers that are on the susanoo andd the chakra that is powering it, 
madaras chakra may be slightly superior to iitachis but no way in hell is it strong enough to claim that its on an entirely different llevel, 



StarWanderer said:


> *CT core has no durability feats*. But anyway, Madara's imperfect Susanoo could be dence enough to withstand CT.


Umm yess it does, 
it tanked a KN6 TBB like it was nothing , and that was a CT from deva, 
Link removed

KN6 TBB has the destructive feats to suggest that its anything that madaras normal V3 susanoo could dish out 

if madara attempts to dance around then the coore gets to the size to which madara wont be able to do shit,  not to mention that the entire landscape would be forcing its way up to the core, including madaras susanoo which gets sucked in and from that point on its a GG


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## StarWanderer (Feb 17, 2015)

> Nagato says hi, rinnegan obito says hi
> people in nagatos tier would be chars such as DSM Kabuto, KCM Minato, Rinnegan Obito w/o BIjuu, Killer Bee, KCM/KCSM naruto, EMS sasuke w/o PS



Nagato cant do anything to Madara's imperfect Susanoo except pushing it back. Rinnegan Obito will get exhausted, since Madara is more than capable of dodging his Kamui attempts with his speed and EMS precognition.

If he count Kabuto as an Akatsuki member... Than yes, he can beat Madara by his White Rage.

KCM Minato loses, since he doesnt have much of an offensive and is not fast enough to teleport around, especially with Madara's EMS prec, with which he can predict where Minato will teleport. Plus, Madara knows about Hiraishin and can destroy kunais, for example.

I already explained why Rinnegan obito cant beat Madara without The Bijuu.

Killer Bee? Unlikely. Only if he uses 8 Tails to its fullest.

KCM/KCSM Naruto loses.

EMS Sasuke without PS loses as well. 



> Once the CT forms and gets to a certain size, then itll be madara getting sucked in just how it happened to kyuubi during the pain arc



Ok, with that i agree.



> Except YM has no destructive feats to suggest it could even put a scratch on it,
> it was aided by FRS and a TBB, both of which take a steamy hot dump on YM
> 
> CT tanked a KN6 TBB like it was nothing,
> YM gets tanked much easier, and the core forms to an extent where madara wont be able to do shit



CT's rocks, not the core itself. I am talking about CT's core taking multiple YM before any rock is there to tank it.



> THhe rocks would completely surround him and he would be suffocated unable to even breath let alone maintain susanoo and break free
> 
> rasengan is trash, dont see why you are mentioning that
> 
> and his susanoo got bitch slapped, not to mention that susanoo was boosted by senjutsu



There will be air in Susanoo. And his Susanoo was powerfull enough to get out of Shukaku's seal. He can get out of CT with it.

CT couldnt destroy rocks that were sucked into it - they were just attached to it with high gravity. 

Link removed

Madara's Susanoo durability >>>>>>>>>> some random rocks durability. He can aither withstand it and get out of it, or destroy it with Susanoo blades from the inside.

Also, i wanna see a proof he used SM to empower his Susanoo with Senjutsu. He loves to play around and doesnt always fight seriously. He used SM for his own durability and regeneration. I doubt he could use SM as good as Naruto used it, or Hashirama. He is hardly proficient with it.

And b*tchslapped without taking any damage, am i right?



> No its not,
> if nagato focuses all of CSTs force onto madara then its GG, his susanoo would get pushed back kilometers away and the impact on the ground would eradicate him
> 
> hirudora is not a village buster, and despite the factt that it had to go through GSB, kisamme sstill managed to survive it, so its also not as pinpointed as CST could be



I cant see why Madara's Susanoo cant withstand a fall from large height.

Village is just homes, people and some rocks. Some characters could crush rocks with their casual taijutsu hits. Some characters could obliterate houses with their attacks. Ask Deidara. That feat is not a big deal in this debate. if his ST could obliterate mountain, for example - than it would be cool. And then i'd have agreed that Madara's Susanoo cant withstand that.

Maybe Guy didnt want to kill Kisame in order to get information from him, am i right?



> What feats?
> one was busted by hirudora and the other was busted by kirin
> both hirudora and kirin are comparable to each other
> 
> ...



Deflected Planetary Rasengan and withstood Kurama's hit. Thats above anything Itachi's imperfect Susanoo has shown.

Hirudora >>>>> Kirin because Hirudora destroyed Madara's Susanoo, which is more durable than Itachi's Susanoo.

Slightly superior to Itachi's? LOL. Madara can casually use tailed beast level construct and his chakra is just *slightly* superior to Itachi's?

Madara's chakra is on an entire different level than that of Itachi. Not only that, but Madara has Indra's chakra inside him. 



> Umm yess it does,
> it tanked a KN6 TBB like it was nothing , and that was a CT from deva,
> Link removed
> 
> ...



The core itself didnt tank KN6 TBB. 

And i explained why it wont be a GG for Madara.


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## em400 (Feb 17, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Slightly superior to Itachi's? LOL. Madara can casually use tailed beast level construct and his chakra is just *slightly* superior to Itachi's?
> 
> Madara's chakra is on entire different level than that of Itachi. Not only that, but Madara has Indra's chakra inside him.
> .



Considering only their chakra strength, you're right. 

But Itachi's Susanoo has both Yata mirror and the Totsuka blade. If it is an imperfect contest only, Itachi's may even be a bit better.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

em400 said:


> Considering only their chakra strength, you're right.
> 
> But Itachi's Susanoo has both Yata mirror and the Totsuka blade. If it is an imperfect contest only, Itachi's may even be a bit better.



 Yata Mirror still couldn't tank Kirin.

 Totsuka Blade is piss weak. His Totsuka Blade pierced right through Orochimaru's body and Orochimaru just laughed at it and called it a small cut. He only realized it was the Totsuka Blade when it started sealing him which implies Totsuka Blade is = to any kind of Susanoo Sword.


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## LostSelf (Feb 17, 2015)

I don't see him beating Nagato without PS and obviously without Kyuubi. (I am basing EMS Madara, not the one with Sage Mode). Preta Path alone is a pain for Susano'o.

But, the man by himself schooled Onoki and Mu without it and it didn't look like he even tried. So the man is still a beast without PS.


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## Sword of the Morning (Feb 17, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I don't see him beating Nagato without PS and obviously without Kyuubi. (I am basing EMS Madara, not the one with Sage Mode). Preta Path alone is a pain for Susano'o.
> 
> *But, the man by himself schooled Onoki and Mu without it and it didn't look like he even tried. So the man is still a beast without PS.*




He beat *kid* Onoki and Muu who weren't even there to fight, but to discuss the treaty with Konoha before ambushed. The Onoki we seen fight would wreck non PS Madara at age 80 and prime Onoki (30-50) would destroy this Madara even easier.


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## LostSelf (Feb 17, 2015)

Sword of the Morning said:


> He beat *kid* Onoki and Muu who weren't even there to fight, but to discuss the treaty with Konoha before ambushed. The Onoki we seen fight would wreck non PS Madara at age 80 and prime Onoki (30-50) would destroy this Madara even easier.



They fought. Going there without the intention of fighting doesn't mean they didn't fight. Especially when they started the fight as a 'rebelion' to Madara's words. The same Onoki was surprised that Madara didn't use his full power against him.

And Mu was in his prime. Who has better portrayal than Onoki, despite having a jutsu of invisibility. And yet he couldn't do a thing to him.

Onoki would do nothing to MS Madara.


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## Zef (Feb 17, 2015)

How does Nagato counter genjutsu?


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## sabre320 (Feb 17, 2015)

Madara without ps is not beating nagato not a chance in hell :/ without ps he cant even put cerberus down...cst flattens madara so does ct not that he needs these to win,..


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## Amol (Feb 17, 2015)

Madara is wanked as usual.
Without PS he is not beating anyone around Nagato level.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

And StarWander is correct.

 KN6 Naruto's TBB was tanked by Deva Path and that Chibaku Tensei had already accumulated a bunch of boulders that were protecting it's core.

 The core itself however, has no durability feats.

 As for genjutsu, the Rinnegan can resist the effects of Mugen Tsukyomi if that helps at all.


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## Kai (Feb 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> The core itself however, has no durability feats.


It's never been tested for feats. However, the rate it's gathered debris against multiple opponents shows the chances characters have at destroying the raw core alone. Practically none.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

Kai said:


> It's never been tested for feats. However, the rate it's gathered debris against multiple opponents shows the chances characters have at destroying the raw core alone. Practically none.



 That's a fair point.

 Though I guess that depends whether or not Madara can't attack it before it reaches it's maximum height. It's possible considering Madara's sensing capabilities.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 17, 2015)

Nagato might be a bit too much due to CT and CST.

But even before pulling PS and mokuton, Madara was holding his own rather well against the gokage. Keep in mind that his stats then were somewhat below his living self as he regained his full power after being resurrected. 

So he might be able to keep up with gokage even without mokuton, Rinnegan and PS for some time.

I see him defeating like 2 kages at once without PS.


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## Kai (Feb 17, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> But even before pulling PS and mokuton, Madara was holding his own rather well against the gokage. Keep in mind that his stats then were somewhat below his living self as he regained his full power after being resurrected.


Gaara, Onoki, and Naruto's clone had Madara's Susanoo defeated rather decisively. You will see if you review the fight that Madara pressured the Gokage with Mokuton, not so much Susanoo.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 18, 2015)

Guys, can you name me at least one Nagato's technique that will do anything to Madara's imperfect Susanoo?  

Even CT is countered. It couldnt destroy simple rocks which were attached to the core. Those rocks were... attached to the core and thats all. Madara's imperfect legged Susanoo durability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple rocks durability, which could be crushed even with some characters taijutsu hits, lol.  Madara gets sucked, ok, but he can easily go through the formed CT ball or cut the core with Susanoo blades as soon as his Susanoo gets attached to CT core. 

His ST cant damage Madara's imperfect Susanoo - it can push Susanoo back and thats all. Nagato's Preta Path has no feats to suggest it can absorb Madara's imperfect Susanoo. Nagato cant pull Madara out of Susanoo and i already explained why. Plus, Madara's chakra reserves and speed are superior to Nagato's. And Madara himself can absorb chakra on even more impressive scale than Nagato, because Madara absorbed Amaterasu and Hashirama's SM by himself. 

Nagato cant beat PS-less EMS Madara.


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## rubberguy (Feb 18, 2015)

Cst flattened the whole of konoha and even create a big hole in it's center, saying hirudora can achieve something like that is wanking and thats a cst through deva not directly from nagato. Add preta path that negate 99% of madara's attack. Madara loses low diff


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## Kai (Feb 18, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Even CT is countered. It couldnt destroy simple rocks which were attached to the core. Those rocks were... attached to the core and thats all. Madara's imperfect legged Susanoo durability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple rocks durability, which could be crushed even with some characters taijutsu hits, lol.  Madara gets sucked, ok, but he can easily go through the formed CT ball or cut the core with Susanoo blades as soon as his Susanoo gets attached to CT core.


Simple rocks? We can simplify things then. 

Madara couldn't even destroy simple rock and sand with his Magatamas. Chibaku Tensei withstood a KN6 bijuudama, and that was one created by Pain. Nagato, who is stronger than Pain, has an even stronger Chibaku Tensei.



			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> His ST cant damage Madara's imperfect Susanoo - it can push Susanoo back and thats all. Nagato's Preta Path has no feats to suggest it can absorb Madara's imperfect Susanoo. Nagato cant pull Madara out of Susanoo and i already explained why. Plus, Madara's chakra reserves and speed are superior to Nagato's.


A strengthened by Onoki's Kajugan no Jutsu could blow a hole through Madara's Susano'o.


Pain's CST that destroyed Konoha would flatten it. Nagato's CST, which is even stronger than Pain's, is in a much closer league to Perfect Susano'o than it is to any lesser Susano'o.



			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> And Madara himself can absorb chakra on even more impressive scale than Nagato, because Madara absorbed Amaterasu and Hashirama's SM by himself.


OP says this is VOTE Madara so in all likelihood he doesn't possess that ability.


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## LostSelf (Feb 18, 2015)

What happened with the Shinra Tensei ninjutsu dispelling effects that was 'canon' a while ago?

Also, we've seen Preta Path quickly absorbing something as huge as Jinton and the very Susano'o blades. I don't see how Susano'o can help Madara other than protecting him. And even that won't save him from CT or CST.


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2015)

Sussano would guard against everything here except Preta and CT. If Nagato opts for preta he probably gets outdone in CQC. Madara however still has no answer to CT without PS. So Nagato would beat Kyyubi and PSless Madara albeit high difficulty( CT = high difficulty IMO).


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## StarWanderer (Feb 18, 2015)

> Simple rocks? We can simplify things then.
> 
> Madara couldn't even destroy simple rock and sand with his Magatamas. Chibaku Tensei withstood a KN6 bijuudama, and that was one created by Pain. Nagato, who is stronger than Pain, has an even stronger Chibaku Tensei.



Those Kage blocks are above simple rocks because they were empowered with chakra and they are much bigger than those little rocks which couldnt be destroyed by CT's core and were simply attached to it.

But anyway, Yasaka Magatama is not very powerfull.

CT withstood KN6 attacks because it was protected with a thick rock shell. The core itself has no durability feats.



> A strengthened by Onoki's Kajugan no Jutsu could blow a hole through Madara's Susano'o.
> Spoiler:
> 
> 
> Pain's CST that destroyed Konoha would flatten it. Nagato's CST, which is even stronger than Pain's, is in a much closer league to Perfect Susano'o than it is to any lesser Susano'o.



Aggravated Rock Technique is much stronger than CST because of its piercing power. CST could destroy some houses and rocks there, with some earth, which could be destroyed in a small proportion by some characters taijutsu. CST doesnt have the piercing power of Aggravated Rock technique. Plus, that wasnt legged Susanoo.

And PS will take Nagato's CST easily, but its PS-less Madara after all.



> OP says this is VOTE Madara so in all likelihood he doesn't possess that ability.



Can you prove that? He never trained, or learned some justu while residing in that cave and he didnt have Rinnegan when he absorbed Amaterasu and Hashirama's SM.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 18, 2015)

> Also, we've seen Preta Path quickly absorbing something as huge as Jinton and the very Susano'o blades. I don't see how Susano'o can help Madara other than protecting him. And even that won't save him from CT or CST.



That was Madara's Preta Path and we know who is the real owner of that Rinnegan and the one who can use the full potential of that Rinnegan. 

CT couldnt obliterate small rocks which were just attached to its core. And even CST wont damage Madara's imperfect legged Susanoo.


----------



## Kai (Feb 18, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Those Kage blocks are above simple rocks because they were empowered with chakra and they are much bigger than those little rocks which couldnt be destroyed by CT's core and were simply attached to it.


The same Kage blocks that Madara's Magatama couldn't breach. 

The fact of the matter is Chibaku Tensei attracts more of the terrain than any Susano'o less than Complete Susano'o is able to destroy.




			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> CT withstood KN6 attacks because it was protected with a thick rock shell. The core itself has no durability feats.


The core has never been tested for feats. 



			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> Aggravated Rock Technique is much stronger than CST *because of its piercing power*. CST could destroy some houses and rocks there, with some earth, which could be destroyed in a small proportion by some characters taijutsu. CST doesnt have the piercing power of Aggravated Rock technique. Plus, that wasnt legged Susanoo.





> Doton: Kajūgan no Jutsu (Added-Weight Rock Technique)]
> 
> Short-Range, Offensive and Supplementary, Ninjutsu
> 
> ...



Piercing power? Added-Weight Rock Technique? 




			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> Can you prove that? He never trained, or learned some justu while residing in that cave and he didnt have Rinnegan when he absorbed Amaterasu and Hashirama's SM.


Madara used the Preta Path power without eyes like he used Susanoo without eyes.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2015)

Kai said:


> Simple rocks? We can simplify things then.
> 
> Madara couldn't even destroy simple rock and sand with his Magatamas. Chibaku Tensei withstood a KN6 bijuudama, and that was one created by Pain. Nagato, who is stronger than Pain, has an even stronger Chibaku Tensei.



 But Deva Path tanked that Bijuudama, so not like it's anything impressive.




> A strengthened by Onoki's Kajugan no Jutsu could blow a hole through Madara's Susano'o.
> 
> 
> Pain's CST that destroyed Konoha would flatten it. Nagato's CST, which is even stronger than Pain's, is in a much closer league to Perfect Susano'o than it is to any lesser Susano'o.



 But it took something like Hirudora's caliber to breach Madara's V3 Susanoo and even then, we can clearly see Madara was A-okay. Even then, Madara has superior sensing and will counter the Chibaku Tensei. If not, he'll just throw a PS Sword at Nagato while he does try to go for Chibaku Tensei considering Madara could spam multiple PS Swords in one panel.




> OP says this is VOTE Madara so in all likelihood he doesn't possess that ability.



 I agree. He couldn't as shown here:

 4

 Hashirama of all people should know of Madara's capabilities, so he likely attained that ability after attaining Hashirama's cells.


----------



## Kai (Feb 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> But Deva Path tanked that Bijuudama, so not like it's anything impressive.


Deva Path wasn't hit directly by the blast and that's evident by an illustration of him knocking KN sideways with a giant boulder a moment before the explosion. He also wasn't hit directly by the blast if he got wiped out by a Rasengan.




			
				NarutoX28 said:
			
		

> But it took something like Hirudora's caliber to breach Madara's V3 Susanoo and even then, we can clearly see Madara was A-okay. Even then, Madara has superior sensing and will counter the Chibaku Tensei. If not, he'll just throw a PS Sword at Nagato while he does try to go for Chibaku Tensei considering Madara could spam multiple PS Swords in one panel.


1. Susanoo doesn't need to be breached for Chibaku Tensei to trap it forever. It's also not a jutsu that kills.
2. What kind of sensing does VOTE Madara have?
3. Complete Susanoo laughs at Chibaku Tensei, but that wasn't the discussion.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2015)

Kai said:


> Deva Path wasn't hit directly by the blast and that's evident by an illustration of him knocking KN sideways with a giant boulder a moment before the explosion. He also wasn't hit directly by the blast if he got wiped out by a Rasengan.



 So KN6 Naruto's Bijuudama couldn't breach a couple of boulders?

 Well yeah, but Naruto even had to ensure the Path couldn't move by pulling out the chakra rod from Deva Path. 




> 1. Susanoo doesn't need to be breached for Chibaku Tensei to trap it forever. It's also not a jutsu that kills.



 It's more as to show Madara's V3 Susanoo's durability which means it will resist CST.



> 2. What kind of sensing does VOTE Madara have?



 I don't know. Instantly recognizing Hashirama's Chakra from a far distance while Nagato couldn't recognize Jiraiya's. That, and Madara being able to sense SM Naruto and Sai's location and matching them perfectly while being blind.




> 3. Complete Susanoo laughs at Chibaku Tensei, but that wasn't the discussion.



 I forgot, no Perfect Susanoo. 

 He still sets up a bushin feint and stabs Nagato like he did to Tsunade which is likely to happen considering Deva Path didn't notice Base Naruto was able of summoning clones and disguising them as rubble which is pretty bad for Nagato there. 


 Edit: Though if all else fails, Madara can just use Izanagi to pull through.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 19, 2015)

> The same Kage blocks that Madara's Magatama couldn't breach.
> 
> The fact of the matter is Chibaku Tensei attracts more of the terrain than any Susano'o less than Complete Susano'o is able to destroy.



It could damage them and they were full of chakra. 

Madara's Susanoo withstood Raikage's attack, Mei's lava and Naruto's Planetary Rasengan. All those attacks could destroy huge masses of rocks effortlessly, but couldnt do anything to Madara's imperfect Susanoo. Plus, Madara's imperfect Susanoo withstood Kurama's hit.

And Madara can cut the gravity core down with his Susanoo blades before it can form in such a huge CT.



> The core has never been tested for feats.



Yeah - the core is featless. Thats why i highly doubt that the core itself can withstand even yasaka Magatama's.



> Piercing power? Added-Weight Rock Technique?



I'll give you an example so you can understand what i mean there. Gai's 8 Gate Night Guy attack doesnt have as good AoE as CST, but it can damage the things CST cant even scratch. 

I hope you'll get it.



> Madara used the Preta Path power without eyes like he used Susanoo without eyes.



Maybe. Because of Hashirama's reaction.


----------



## Kai (Feb 19, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So KN6 Naruto's Bijuudama couldn't breach a couple of boulders?


He redirected it. 

We see this sort of thing. Kitsuchi interrupted Juubi's bijuudama by raising the earth level beneath its feet.



			
				NarutoX28 said:
			
		

> Well yeah, but Naruto even had to ensure the Path couldn't move by pulling out the chakra rod from Deva Path.


And confirm it he did. Deva Path still got wiped by a Rasengan.



			
				NarutoX28 said:
			
		

> I don't know. Instantly recognizing Hashirama's Chakra from a far distance while Nagato couldn't recognize Jiraiya's. That, and Madara being able to sense SM Naruto and Sai's location and matching them perfectly while being blind.


He had Hashirama's chakra and Hashiboob during these moments. Madara had no such sensing feats during VOTE or prior to VOTE.




			
				NarutoX28 said:
			
		

> Though if all else fails, Madara can just use Izanagi to pull through.


He'd still be dead... until much later 



StarWanderer said:


> It could damage them and they were full of chakra.
> 
> Madara's Susanoo withstood Raikage's attack, Mei's lava and Naruto's Planetary Rasengan. All those attacks could destroy huge masses of rocks effortlessly, but couldnt do anything to Madara's imperfect Susanoo. Plus, Madara's imperfect Susanoo withstood Kurama's hit.


Susanoo should be blocking all of those attacks. Sasuke's ribcage Susanoo remained intact from a Liger Bomb from A and his first stage Susanoo blocked these collection of attacks.


Naruto's Rasengan was Cho Odama Rasengan, performed in base, and performed by a clone. Susanoo should be blocking a mediocre level attack. None of those attacks, even used in combination, can do a thing to Chibaku Tensei's pull of giant land masses. When Itachi, B, and Naruto destroyed CT it was already the size of a small island and that was performed by Nagato.



			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> And Madara can cut the gravity core down with his Susanoo blades before it can form in such a huge CT.


Manga feats show the chances of that is not likely. 

What will happen instead is blades striking any number of rock masses that are in the way and being attracted to the orb.





			
				Starwanderer said:
			
		

> Yeah - the core is featless. Thats why i highly doubt that the core itself can withstand even yasaka Magatama's.


It's featless because the rate in which it gathers debris doesn't put it in a position to be faced alone.




			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> I'll give you an example so you can understand what i mean there. Gai's 8 Gate Night Guy attack doesnt have as good AoE as CST, but it can damage the things CST cant even scratch.
> 
> I hope you'll get it.


Two last generation Kage were able to blow a hole through Susanoo together. Nagato's superior CST is far more destructive than A and Onoki's combination if his medium Pain could level Konoha. You're also probably no stranger to the Nagato vs. Gokage debates in here.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 20, 2015)

> Susanoo should be blocking all of those attacks. Sasuke's ribcage Susanoo remained intact from a Liger Bomb from A and his first stage Susanoo blocked these collection of attacks.
> Spoiler:
> 
> 
> Naruto's Rasengan was Cho Odama Rasengan, performed in base, and performed by a clone. Susanoo should be blocking a mediocre level attack. None of those attacks, even used in combination, can do a thing to Chibaku Tensei's pull of giant land masses. When Itachi, B, and Naruto destroyed CT it was already the size of a small island and that was performed by Nagato.



Madara has reaction speed and an intellect to hit CT's core with Yasaka Magatama before any rock is pulled in there. He is smarter than Itachi, after all. And i'd say, by far. 

And Madara's imperfect Susanoo has swords which can go through rocks with no problem. And CT wont do a thing to his Susanoo. Rocks are non-factor.



> Manga feats show the chances of that is not likely.
> 
> What will happen instead is blades striking any number of rock masses that are in the way and being attracted to the orb.



It can go through those rock masses and cut the core itself.



> It's featless because the rate in which it gathers debris doesn't put it in a position to be faced alone.



Madara's Susanoo blade can go through rocks without much of a problem.



> Two last generation Kage were able to blow a hole through Susanoo together. Nagato's superior CST is far more destructive than A and Onoki's combination if his medium Pain could level Konoha. You're also probably no stranger to the Nagato vs. Gokage debates in here.



I dont care about Gokage vs Nagato debate.

And i highly doubt Aggravated Rock Technique is less destructive than CST. CST has just a greater AoE. Thats all. Nagato didnt crush something realy durable with that CST.


----------



## Kai (Feb 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara has reaction speed and an intellect to hit CT's core with Yasaka Magatama before any rock is pulled in there. He is smarter than Itachi, after all. And i'd say, by far.


Manga opponents have all engaged Chibaku Tensei with earth gathered, so there's already a low probability for your claim.

Add no basis to such low probabilty claims and it just comes off as wank.



			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> And CT wont do a thing to his Susanoo. Rocks are non-factor.


Chibaku Tensei doesn't have to do anything to his Susanoo for you to be wrong. Susanoo, however, can't do a thing to Chibaku Tensei and you've yet to provide evidence for its destructive capacity. 



			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> It can go through those rock masses and cut the core itself.



Only Complete Susanoo fits that description. Chibaku Tensei attracts more of the earth than any lesser Susanoo has the capacity to destroy.




			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> Madara's Susanoo blade can go through rocks without much of a problem.


Not that much rock. 

Present evidence that any lesser Susanoo can cut through multiple land masses.





			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> I dont care about Gokage vs Nagato debate.
> 
> And i highly doubt Aggravated Rock Technique is less destructive than CST. CST has just a greater AoE. Thats all. Nagato didnt crush something realy durable with that CST.


You take delight in saying baseless things. 

Where's the basis for CST having less destructive capacity? What showing compliments that? Nagato's CST is *even stronger than the one that was shown*


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## sabre320 (Feb 20, 2015)

Nagato uses cst nothing short of ps is protecting madara...a city buster is far above anything imperfect sussano has tanked or anything close....ct is a death sentence and nagato can protect the core through using large shinra tensei to bombard madara...nagato even without his trump cards beats restricted madara ..


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## StarWanderer (Feb 20, 2015)

> Manga opponents have all engaged Chibaku Tensei with earth gathered, so there's already a low probability for your claim.
> 
> Add no basis to such low probabilty claims and it just comes off as wank.



Yeah, most likely there will be a rock shell when Madara tries to destroy it, i agree. But Madara's Susanoo is durable enough to withstand huge rock masses, because of how powerfull techniques it could withstand. And Kurama's hit. He can be attached to CT with not very big number of rocks like in Itachi, Bee, KCM Naruto fight against Nagato. And then he can cut through those rocks with his swords to destroy the core. Madara can make a hole in the shell to get to the core. Or, he can go out of CT's shell after it is formed. 

Also, there is a possibility that his Susanoo will be pulled at the end of CT formation so it will be easier for him to escape it. 



> Chibaku Tensei doesn't have to do anything to his Susanoo for you to be wrong. Susanoo, however, can't do a thing to Chibaku Tensei and you've yet to provide evidence for its destructive capacity.



Susanoo can go out of CT's shell. It will take a time, but it can go out. Or it can be pulled at the end of CT's shell formation. Imperfect Susanoo could easily go out of Gaara's huge sand masses with 1 Tails seal on it. It could crush rocks without using its blades and deflect Rasengan chakra mass easily. 



> Only Complete Susanoo fits that description. Chibaku Tensei attracts more of the earth than any lesser Susanoo has the capacity to destroy.



Imperfect non-legged Susanoo could do this effortlessly: (3)

The earth could be attracted to the direction were Susanoo is, so Susanoo will take those rocks on itself while making a hole in a shell to destroy the core. Also, Susanoo can survive it and go out, although it will take some time to do that.



> Not that much rock.
> 
> Present evidence that any lesser Susanoo can cut through multiple land masses.



It can crush rocks easily, without any difficulty, as it was shown up there. Without using blades.

So why cant he make a hole in rocks shell to find a core there?



> You take delight in saying baseless things.
> 
> Where's the basis for CST having less destructive capacity? What showing compliments that? Nagato's CST is even stronger than the one that was shown



Aggravated Rock technique could go through Madara's Susanoo, which is very durable. CST could crush simple houses and some earth. Those cant be compared with such a durable chakra construct as Susanoo. 

And before you can bring up Frogs thing - they have no durability feats, as i remember. 

Plus, that was non-legged, inferior Susanoo. Madara's legged Susanoo is even superior.


----------



## Kai (Feb 21, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Yeah, most likely there will be a rock shell when Madara tries to destroy it, i agree. But Madara's Susanoo is durable enough to withstand huge rock masses, because of how powerfull techniques it could withstand. And Kurama's hit. He can be attached to CT with not very big number of rocks like in Itachi, Bee, KCM Naruto fight against Nagato. And then he can cut through those rocks with his swords to destroy the core. Madara can make a hole in the shell to get to the core. Or, he can go out of CT's shell after it is formed.
> 
> Also, there is a possibility that his Susanoo will be pulled at the end of CT formation so it will be easier for him to escape it.


You keep saying the same things but there's no evidence for these fantasy claims. When you go search the manga for these destructive feats, only Complete Susanoo has those demonstrations.



			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> Susanoo can go out of CT's shell. It will take a time, but it can go out. Or it can be pulled at the end of CT's shell formation. Imperfect Susanoo could easily go out of Gaara's huge sand masses with 1 Tails seal on it. It could crush rocks without using its blades and deflect Rasengan chakra mass easily.


Madara gets pulled in long before the deepest parts of the earth gets attracted. 

Conventional Susanoo has never shown destructive capacity on this scale, yet you keep insisting it can so provide evidence for it. You imply Madara can delay gravity's pull on him and I'd like to see any shred of evidence for that claim as well.

Shukaku's seal wasn't firmly established when Madara broke free. Susanoo's blades should be going through Gaara's sand. Neither power is even close to Chibaku Tensei's scale.




			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> Imperfect non-legged Susanoo could do this effortlessly: 2
> The earth could be attracted to the direction were Susanoo is, so Susanoo will take those rocks on itself while making a hole in a shell to destroy the core. Also, Susanoo can survive it and go out, although it will take some time to do that.


Doesn't show what you're referring to.




			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> It can crush rocks easily, without any difficulty, as it was shown up there. Without using blades.
> 
> So why cant he make a hole in rocks shell to find a core there?


You keep ignoring the fact that Susanoo has never destroyed even close to the level of multiple land masses 

I ask you to bring forth substance. You keep saying stupid shit like "they're just rocks."






			
				StarWanderer said:
			
		

> Aggravated Rock technique could go through Madara's Susanoo, which is very durable. CST could crush simple houses and some earth. Those cant be compared with such a durable chakra construct as Susanoo.
> 
> And before you can bring up Frogs thing - they have no durability feats, as i remember.
> 
> Plus, that was non-legged, inferior Susanoo. Madara's legged Susanoo is even superior.



A hole was blown through standard Susanoo by the power of two Kage because face it, a lesser Susanoo just isn't on that level. A *more powerful* village buster than the one shown and dealt to Konoha wrecks it without a second thought.


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 21, 2015)

madara is being overrated here, alot


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 21, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> madara is being overrated here, alot



Tell me about it...because he is a top tier apparently he has to be the strongest in every field he is better at genjutsu then itachi and shisui ,is faster and more reflexive then bsm naruto,stronger then tsunade,more durable then sandaime and has greater reserves then kurama...same has happened with hashirama..


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 21, 2015)

What's with this Madara nonsense? Without PS his escape out of CT shouldn't be a debate at all. Any Susanoo below PS has not shown destructive feats that can rival CT or CST, It's exactly why in Madara debates people disregard all of Madara's other techs and go straight to the use of PS because with out it Madara isn't really anything special.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 21, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> What's with this Madara nonsense? Without PS his escape out of CT shouldn't be a debate at all. Any Susanoo below PS has not shown destructive feats that can rival CT or CST, It's exactly why in Madara debates people disregard all of Madara's other techs and go straight to the use of PS because with out it Madara isn't really anything special.



 During CST, he just uses Izanagi.

 Then he proceeds to stab Nagato the same way Itachi did.

 Checkmate Nagato.


----------



## Bonly (Feb 21, 2015)

Without PS I'd say Madara would have a decent shot at beating EMS Sasuke though that depends on how things play out


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Feb 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> During CST, he just uses Izanagi.
> 
> Then he proceeds to stab Nagato the same way Itachi did.
> 
> Checkmate Nagato.


Nagato's sensory coupled with his super field of vision with summonings on the field, would make Madara sneaking up on him extremely difficult


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 21, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Nagato's sensory coupled with his super field of vision with summonings on the field, would make Madara sneaking up on him extremely difficult



 His sensory is complete shit. He couldn't even recognize Jiraiya's chakra and relied on finding Jiraiya by listening to his Frog Song instead of using actual sensing. His sensing capabilities aren't that good.

 That depends. He won't use Summonings and then use Chibaku Tensei while having them on the field because that has never happened. He'll only do that if he's exhausted his options.


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> *His sensory is complete shit*. He couldn't even recognize Jiraiya's chakra and relied on finding Jiraiya by listening to his Frog Song instead of using actual sensing. His sensing capabilities aren't that good.


This point is completely moot since the Peins are not sensors, 
only nagato himself is, 

and whats with this nagato hate and downplaying coming from you? it just makes yourself look dumb and stupid

nagato was the only one able to sense kabutos whereabouts which was several kilometers away from his actual location, 
he was able to sense the chakra built up in itachis eye, well well before even KCM naruto could, yet you are telling me that his sensing feats are bad? please, 



> That depends. He won't use Summonings and then use Chibaku Tensei while having them on the field because that has never happened. He'll only do that if he's exhausted his options.


Nagato can control on who to target his deva path powers to, and can pinpoint the force on an assosciated target, no matter how large the force is, so using ST wont be the problem 
neither is for CT,,because then he himself would be drawn in by CT which clearly isnt the case,


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 21, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> This point is completely moot since the Peins are not sensors,
> only nagato himself is,



 That doesn't make sense considering they are receiving Nagato's chakra and that Nagato's the one coordinating their attacks, meaning he's the one seeing through their eyes and sensing the target.



> and whats with this nagato hate and downplaying coming from you? it just makes yourself look dumb and stupid



 Ouch, that really hurt my feelings doe. 



> nagato was the only one able to sense kabutos whereabouts which was several kilometers away from his actual location,
> he was able to sense the chakra built up in itachis eye, well well before even KCM naruto could, yet you are telling me that his sensing feats are bad? please,



 The first situation was likely because of being controlled by Edo Tensei which Itachi took advantage of. Even then, Madara has shown that he can sense and instantly recognize Hashirama's chakra from a rather far distance as well, so .

 That's actually a fair point and forgot to even consider that. Alas, his sensing feats still don't compare to Madara's IMO. 




> Nagato can control on who to target his deva path powers to, and can pinpoint the force on an assosciated target, no matter how large the force is, so using ST wont be the problem
> neither is for CT,,because then he himself would be drawn in by CT which clearly isnt the case,



 Not necessarily.

 He cannot exactly control who he applies his force of gravity. This is because Kakashi even stated that Deva Path's powers functions where he applies gravitiational repulsion and attractive forces to repel or attract people towards/away from his center. Anyone who is within the range he applies the force gets destroyed (totally dependent on mass and durability).

 Chibaku Tensei also functions the same way where the core functions as the center instead of Pain/ Nagato and applies an attractive force (gravity) that pulls everything towards it. 

 The CT used on Itachi, Bee, and Naruto is clearly shown to be pulling things that are directly below it. 

2

 You can see here that this is the case. 

2

 Here, you can clearly see the combination attacks are moving in one direction, meaning that Nagato wouldn't be pulled in because he isn't within the force that it is applied at.

 Nagato can effect which direction it's gravitational force is applied, but he cannot choose which object is pulled towards the center. If that wasn't the case, then he obviously wouldn't have pulled Naruto, Bee's, and Itachi's combination attacks towards the center core.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Feb 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> His sensory is complete shit. He couldn't even recognize Jiraiya's chakra and relied on finding Jiraiya by listening to his Frog Song instead of using actual sensing. His sensing capabilities aren't that good.
> 
> That depends. He won't use Summonings and then use Chibaku Tensei while having them on the field because that has never happened. He'll only do that if he's exhausted his options.


Maybe because the paths aren't sensors. Each Pains have one specific ability just because he controls them doesn't mean he gives them more abilities than they originally have unless you have a case for that?

And lol you called Nagato's sensing feats bad? What is that a joke?

Why can't he just unsummon them then use CT that way none of his summonings would get caught in CT. If he's using Izanagi it's going to be way before CT needs to come out or he gets killed plain and simple, as a boss sized ST still ends him. Lets say he uses Izanagi their his summonings are on the field so a sneak attack ain't happening. Then what happens if he decides to use another boss sized ST izanagi again so he has no eyes?
So i repeat his field of vision with his summonings and his sensing won't allow a sneak attack.

On top of that for PS-less Madara CT might not even be needed because nothing less of PS is harming Nagato especially with Preta. It'd be complete garbage if you claim Nagato can't absorb incomplete Susanoo.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 22, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Maybe because the paths aren't sensors. Each Pains have one specific ability just because he controls them doesn't mean he gives them more abilities than they originally have unless you have a case for that?



 Sensory isn't an ability that originates from the Rinnegan. Each path can only use one ability from the Rinnegan, but sensing isn't one of them. Your statement completely contradicts this if that were the case as Animal Path has shown sensing capabilities.



> And lol you called Nagato's sensing feats bad? What is that a joke?



 I admit I exaggerated. I'm just saying they're not as good compared to other ninjas, Madara being one of them.



> Why can't he just unsummon them then use CT that way none of his summonings would get caught in CT. If he's using Izanagi it's going to be way before CT needs to come out or he gets killed plain and simple, as a boss sized ST still ends him. Lets say he uses Izanagi their his summonings are on the field so a sneak attack ain't happening. Then what happens if he decides to use another boss sized ST izanagi again so he has no eyes?
> So i repeat his field of vision with his summonings and his sensing won't allow a sneak attack.



 No, all he needs to do is use the seal before CT sucks him up which should be easy considering Naruto, Bee, and Itachi had more than enough time to use their combination attack. 

 No, he can unsummon them. He can clearly use summons during CT. I was just pointing out that he likely won't use CT with them around as he only uses CT when his options have been exhausted.

 That's a true point, but like I said, in this circumstance, he won't have summons up during the time he uses CT, so he gets blitzed fast. Of course, Madara can also dig his spear directly into the ground, which means his blitz attack won't be detected before it's too late considering Nagato couldn't react to V2 Bee. Field of Vision is nice, though Summons, Asura Path, getting in range for Human Path and Gedo Mazo is next to impossible with a Bijuu-sized Susanoo that just fodderizes whatever Nagato dishes out. That includes ST which could only blow away Base Bee who has little to no durability feats.



> On top of that for PS-less Madara CT might not even be needed because nothing less of PS is harming Nagato especially with Preta. It'd be complete garbage if you claim Nagato can't absorb incomplete Susanoo.



 Preta can't absorb something with more chakra than EMS Sasuke's Bijuu-sized Susanoo or BM Naruto's Kurama Avatar for that matter unless you can show feats of him doing so. Nagato was unable to absorb Amaterasu, Madara who has a superior Preta Path couldn't even absorb Mei's Lava Release or her Suiton for that matter which just shows that Preta Path does have a limit. It cannot absorb all jutsus.

 Why would it be complete garbage? Madara can put out more chakra into his Susanoo to make it much bigger, one that will reach or even surpass EMS Sasuke's Bijuu-sized Susanoo in terms of size, durability, and chakra considering his Chakra is superior to Sasuke's.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Feb 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sensory isn't an ability that originates from the Rinnegan. Each path can only use one ability from the Rinnegan, but sensing isn't one of them. Your statement completely contradicts this if that were the case as Animal Path has shown sensing capabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just because characters refuse to absorb things doesn't automatically deem them unable to absorb it. Im sure if Nagato chose to absorb Ama instead of ST it people would have said Nagato isn't able to ST Ama off of him. Didn't Madara absorb Ama anyway? 
On top of that no where was it stated that he wasn't capable of absorbing lava release. You can't be so quick to come to conclusions due to characters choosing different options. Was it ever stated that Madara was not capable of absorbing Lava release?

Why can't Nagato absorb an incomplete Susanoo? DB says Preta allows the user to absorb any ninjutsu regardless of its properties. We have never seen a limit on Preta but rather we see claims of others that try to force a limit on it when in actuality no limit was placed and every ninjutsu the user absorbed was absorbed.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

Madara's imperfect non-legged Susanoo can destroy rocks by its mere movement. It is durable enough to withstand CT and any other Nagato's technique and for sure can make a hole in CT's rocks shell, although it will take some time. There are lots of rocks, but its just a rock shell. Even Tsunade can destroy rocks by her hits. 

But i havent thought about one thing - the air can go throgh Susanoo and will be sucked it CT's core. It will take a time for Madara's imperfect Susanoo to go through rocks shell and Madara might suffocate there.


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## ARGUS (Feb 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That doesn't make sense considering they are receiving Nagato's chakra and that Nagato's the one coordinating their attacks, meaning he's the one seeing through their eyes and sensing the target.


the paths only have one ability and that alone is it, 
they are just nagatos puppets, and him controlling them from the outsides doesnt mean that they have the everything that nagato does, 
peins dont have any sensing abilities like nagato, the only way they detect chakra is by seeing it through their rinnegan, 



> Ouch, that really hurt my feelings doe.


its the truth,  



> The first situation was likely because of being controlled by Edo Tensei which Itachi took advantage of.


Yet no other edo had even a slightest clue of kabutos whereabouts, including madara, 
itachi wasnt able to locate kabuto, he was only able to pinpoint it, 
nagato was the one who sensed him and that is a feat that put him above even Muu who is probably one of the best non god sensors in the manga



> Even then, Madara has shown that he can sense and instantly recognize Hashirama's chakra from a rather far distance as well, so .


that doesnt put him above the rest, 
since even tobirama and miinato were able to sense the chakra from the same distance 
not to mention that EMS madara has no sensing abilties, no reason to give him feats of Edo madara who has Senju DNA, and mokuton all over him 



> That's actually a fair point and forgot to even consider that. Alas, his sensing feats still don't compare to Madara's IMO.


Umm No, they are well above his, 
EMS madara doesnt even have sensiing to begin with, and edo madaras sensory feats dont even put him above the likes of sensors such as Minato, Tobirama, KCM naruto or Muu, 

KCM narutos sensing is adept enough to even locate negative emotions, and aids him into having immense reflexes, 
yet nagato sensed the built up in itachis eye and even warned naruto before he was able to do shit, 

this whole incident takes a dump on your entire baseless argument of nagatos sensing being ''shit'' 




> Not necessarily.


Uhh Yes, necessarily 
he pinpointed the immense force of ST only on the 3 toads, yet naruto wasnt affected by it at all, 
if only he himself was the epi centre then all the peins themselves and naruto wouldve also been repelled yet that clearly wasnt the case, 



> He cannot exactly control who he applies his force of gravity.


*Yet Nagato has already showed that he can,* and its not the force of gravity that he uses, its just force itself 
so try again, 



> This is because Kakashi even stated that Deva Path's powers functions where he applies gravitiational repulsion and attractive forces to repel or attract people towards/away from his center. Anyone who is within the range he applies the force gets destroyed (totally dependent on mass and durability).


No, anyone who is targeted with that force is recieving such argument, 
Deva already pulled kakashi into his force yet Asura Path who was right infront oof him wasnnt affected even in the slightest, 
so this again refutes your argument on pein being unable to pinpoint his force of ST 



> Chibaku Tensei also functions the same way where the core functions as the center instead of Pain/ Nagato and applies an attractive force (gravity) that pulls everything towards it.


Except the core is the centre this time, not nagato, 
yet both in madara and nagatos case, they are not affected even in the slightest, 
the answer is very very simple, its because they can  choose on who and what to pull in 



> The CT used on Itachi, Bee, and Naruto is clearly shown to be pulling things that are directly below it.
> 
> *Yet Nagato has already showed that he can,*
> 
> ...


Thats becase nagato wanted every one but himself to be targeted, 
again read my comment above and  this is already addressed 



> Here, you can clearly see the combination attacks are moving in one direction, meaning that Nagato wouldn't be pulled in because he isn't within the force that it is applied at.


The entire landscape was wiithin the force that  was applied at, 
its the same case with deva path,



> Nagato can effect which direction it's gravitational force is applied, but he cannot choose which object is pulled towards the center. If that wasn't the case, then he obviously wouldn't have pulled Naruto, Bee's, and Itachi's combination attacks towards the center core.


The core itself has  sucking powers not nagato, so noo matter what they use it will get attracted to the core, 

in madaras case however, he cant cut the core, and once he gets sucked in (which he will) he gets constantly bombarded with rocks and gets suffocated, unable to breath let alone maintain susanoo which is only making it worse, so CT is a GG without PS


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## sabre320 (Feb 22, 2015)

jesus the madara and hashi wank has gone insane...v3 sussano destroying ct from the inside:/ wow


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

> Deva already pulled kakashi into his force yet Asura Path who was right infront oof him wasnnt affected even in the slightest



Re-read that chapter. Asura Path wasnt in the way of his Banshou Ten'in's range.



> he pinpointed the immense force of ST only on the 3 toads, yet naruto wasnt affected by it at all



Naruto was under the Banshou Ten'in's range. Thats why he wasnt affected by it.


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## Kai (Feb 22, 2015)

Use this example in place of the others then.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 22, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> the paths only have one ability and that alone is it,
> they are just nagatos puppets, and him controlling them from the outsides doesnt mean that they have the everything that nagato does,
> peins dont have any sensing abilities like nagato, the only way they detect chakra is by seeing it through their rinnegan,



 Animal Path has shown sensing capabilities. He could not see Jiraiya yet he detected a powerful chakra within his city which means Animal Path is a sensor.




> its the truth,








> Yet no other edo had even a slightest clue of kabutos whereabouts, including madara,
> itachi wasnt able to locate kabuto, he was only able to pinpoint it,
> nagato was the one who sensed him and that is a feat that put him above even Muu who is probably one of the best non god sensors in the manga



 Madara was never being controlled which is why he couldn't pinpoint his location. Muu had no reason to sense Kabuto's location. We're not certain whether he could or couldn't as Muu was being directly controlled for most of the time anyways.

 Itachi never denied being able to pinpoint Kabuto's location due to being directly controlled by Edo Tensei. He only denied that he couldn't sense Kabuto's location.




> that doesnt put him above the rest,
> since even tobirama and miinato were able to sense the chakra from the same distance
> not to mention that EMS madara has no sensing abilties, no reason to give him feats of Edo madara who has Senju DNA, and mokuton all over him.



 Senju DNA doesn't automatically give users sensing capabilities unless you can prove that. But even then, Nagato's sensing capabilities has never really helped him in a fight, so there's certainly that.





> Umm No, they are well above his,
> EMS madara doesnt even have sensiing to begin with, and edo madaras sensory feats dont even put him above the likes of sensors such as Minato, Tobirama, KCM naruto or Muu,



 It doesn't matter as Nagato's sensing hasn't helped him with fighting anyways.



> KCM narutos sensing is adept enough to even locate negative emotions, and aids him into having immense reflexes,
> yet nagato sensed the built up in itachis eye and even warned naruto before he was able to do shit,



 Immense reflexes? Hardly. That's why he needs SM Naruto to enhance his reactions or even locate the stakes in the Bijuu for that matter.



> this whole incident takes a dump on your entire baseless argument of nagatos sensing being ''shit''



 Well-played sir. 





> Uhh Yes, necessarily
> he pinpointed the immense force of ST only on the 3 toads, yet naruto wasnt affected by it at all,
> if only he himself was the epi centre then all the peins themselves and naruto wouldve also been repelled yet that clearly wasnt the case,



 Then he simply wasn't within range of the ST




> *Yet Nagato has already showed that he can,* and its not the force of gravity that he uses, its just force itself
> so try again,



 Yet only one thing is within the range he's applying the force.

 It's not gravitational? Is that why Kakashi states that his ability is to control gravity and that Deva Path is stated to only have one ability, which is controlling forces composed of gravity? 




> No, anyone who is targeted with that force is recieving such argument,
> Deva already pulled kakashi into his force yet Asura Path who was right infront oof him wasnnt affected even in the slightest,
> so this again refutes your argument on pein being unable to pinpoint his force of ST



 Asura was actually right next to him.  




> Except the core is the centre this time, not nagato,
> yet both in madara and nagatos case, they are not affected even in the slightest,
> the answer is very very simple, its because they can  choose on who and what to pull in



 Madara was effected by CT. That's why Muu and Madara had to regenerate. Even Madara knew the AoE would effect him. 

 No he can't. Itachi stated that Naruto, Bee, and himself didn't need to aim as CT would already attract it towards the core meaning Nagato cannot choose who he wanted to pull in or that would've never worked in the first place. 




> Thats becase nagato wanted every one but himself to be targeted,
> again read my comment above and  this is already addressed



 Already countered. The scan clearly showed everything directly below the core was being pulled in which means Nagato's not within the force's range. 




> The entire landscape was wiithin the force that  was applied at,
> its the same case with deva path,



 Because Deva Path manipulated the direction of the force to fit that criteria. Nagato did not. 




> The core itself has  sucking powers not nagato, so noo matter what they use it will get attracted to the core,



 So it cannot control who he wants to suck in?

 Edit: Ah, I get what you're saying, but if that were the case, Nagato would've been sucked in the instant the core released it's gravitational force which means Nagato was out of the Core's range. 



> in madaras case however, he cant cut the core, and once he gets sucked in (which he will) he gets constantly bombarded with rocks and gets suffocated, unable to breath let alone maintain susanoo which is only making it worse, so CT is a GG without PS



 As he doesn't need to aim just like Itachi stated due to it's powerful attractive force, Madara can spam Yasaka Magatama recklessly until he does breach the core.

Checkmate.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 22, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara's imperfect non-legged Susanoo can destroy rocks by its mere movement.* It is durable enough to withstand CT and any other Nagato's technique* and for sure can make a hole in CT's rocks shell, although it will take some time. There are lots of rocks, but its just a rock shell. Even Tsunade can destroy rocks by her hits.
> 
> But i havent thought about one thing - the air can go throgh Susanoo and will be sucked it CT's core. It will take a time for Madara's imperfect Susanoo to go through rocks shell and Madara might suffocate there.



  I really hope your joking.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I really hope your joking.



I am serious. His CT couldnt crush simple rocks. They were just attached to CT's core because of its gravity. 

And his ST has never crushed anything as durable as Madara's imperfect legged Susanoo. I made a mistake about "non-legged". I was typing too fast and i made a mistake, you know. But it is debatable if his CST can crush Madara's non-legged Susanoo anyway.

Nevetheless, CT can counter his imperfect Susanoo because the air will be pulled to the core. Madara can suffocate there.


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## sabre320 (Feb 22, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I really hope your joking.



if only they were joking the wank is real:/


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 22, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> I am serious. *His CT couldnt crush simple rocks*. They were just attached to CT's core because of its gravity.
> 
> And his ST has never crushed anything as durable as Madara's imperfect legged Susanoo. I made a mistake about "non-legged". I was typing too fast and i made a mistake, you know. But it is debatable if his CST can crush Madara's non-legged Susanoo anyway.
> 
> Nevetheless, CT can counter his imperfect Susanoo because the air will be pulled to the core. Madara can suffocate there.



You do realize Madaras regular susanoo is the same as Itachi's and Sasuke's right? Only he has more chakra so he can use it more freely.

You also realize all those rocks were getting destroyed and mangled together as they were ripped out of the earth into the gravity core??

lol sorry man I have been accused lots of times of having ridiculous arguments but this takes the cake.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> You do realize Madaras regular susanoo is the same as Itachi's and Sasuke's right? Only he has more chakra so he can use it more freely.
> 
> You also realize all those rocks were getting destroyed and mangled together as they were ripped out of the earth into the gravity core??
> 
> lol sorry man I have been accused lots of times of having ridiculous arguments but this takes the cake.



No it is not. It has shown superior durability feats. 

Also, they were attached to the core and could be destroyed by other rocks only. Madara's imperfect Susanoo is more than durable enough to withstand rocks barrage.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 22, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> No it is not. It has shown superior durability feats.
> 
> Also, they were attached to the core and could be destroyed by other rocks only. *Madara's imperfect Susanoo is more than durable enough to withstand rocks barrage*.



But its not durable enough to survive a boss sized ST or a full power CT. ck


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> But its not durable enough to survive a boss sized ST or a full power CT. ck



It survived Kurama's hit. And kage-level attacks, multiple times.

CST has never destroyed anything as durable as Madara's imperfect Susanoo.

Also, that Susanoo is durable enough to withstand CT, although Madara will most likely suffocate inside the CT's rock shell.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 22, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> *It survived Kurama's hit*. And kage-level attacks, multiple times.
> 
> CST has never destroyed anything as durable as Madara's imperfect Susanoo.
> 
> Also, that Susanoo is durable enough to withstand CT, although Madara will most likely suffocate inside the CT's rock shell.



Show me a panel.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Show me a panel.



*Yet Nagato has already showed that he can,*


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 22, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> You do realize Madaras regular susanoo is the same as Itachi's and Sasuke's right? Only he has more chakra so he can use it more freely.



 No, his chakra output and reserves are superior to Sasuke and Itachi's which means he can easily make a Bijuu-sized Susanoo the way Sasuke did. There's also the fact that Madara's Susanoo has shown far better durability feats, esp. with his rib cage while still being relatively the same size as Sasuke's Ribcage which means Madara's Susanoo of the same size still trumps Sasuke's and Itachi's. 



> You also realize all those rocks were getting destroyed and mangled together as they were ripped out of the earth into the gravity core??



 That honestly doesn't really matter as Madara is capable of just spamming Yasaka Magatama by taking advantage of the core's gravitational force. That and the fact that Sasuke's V3 Bijuu-sized Susanoo can crush a giant branch of the God Tree which dwarfs BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar, so a Stronger V4 Susanoo from Madara will easily slice through the rocks.



> lol sorry man I have been accused lots of times of having ridiculous arguments but this takes the cake.





 This is the thread you made.

 Nuff said.


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## Empathy (Feb 22, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> *Yet Nagato has already showed that he can,*



It was strengthened by _Sennin Modo_ if I remember correctly (link doesn't work for me).


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

Empathy said:


> It was strengthened by _Sennin Modo_ if I remember correctly (link doesn't work for me).



You are not the only one who wrote about that, yet no one can prove Madara, at that time, was proficient enough with Hashirama's SM to boost his Susanoo.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 22, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> *Yet Nagato has already showed that he can,*



You do realize madara has Hashirama's powers in that fight? This entire thread is about valley of the end Madara which several other posters mentioned within this thread including myself in the OP post.

With hashirama's cells madara is several times more powerful and his chakra pool just increased by a huge amount. I don't think EMS Madara without PS can just sit there and take hits from tailed beasts and not either die or be mortally wounded after the 1st or second barrage.

You sir have no argument. Mabey you should read the OP before commenting.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 22, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> You are not the only one who wrote about that, yet no one can prove Madara, at that time, was proficient enough with Hashirama's SM to boost his Susanoo.



 He also claimed that it was very little chakra, so it likely gave him a fairly minimal boost as well.

 ^ With Hashi's cells, he's several times more powerful? Hashi's cells do not enhance his physical reactions or ninjutsu for that matter. It was only implied to give him the ability to absorb ninjutsu (to an extent), the Rinnegan, and Mokuton. That was it. This is why when Edo Madara and Edo Hashirama duked it out as equals, Madara was still his equal which was further made clear by a fodder Shinobi making a rhetorical question that pondered if they fought like this at the VoTE. 

 You have no argument as you made a baseless claim without backing it up, so looks like our arguments are legit.


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## Empathy (Feb 22, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> You are not the only one who wrote about that, yet no one can prove Madara, at that time, was proficient enough with Hashirama's SM to boost his Susanoo.



He's proficient enough to perfectly balance it and fight with his eyes closed while completely relying on sensory (two things a long time user like Jiraiya didn't do). _Sennin Modo_ automatically boosts all your stats and jutsu upon activation indiscriminately; there's no reason to assume any of Madara's ninjutsu would be excluded for arbitrary reasons. Never mind the fact that _Susanoo_ being bolstered is perfectly consistent with its performance there. There wasn't any indication showing (and it would need to shown to prove an exception to the rule) that any of Madara's jutsu would be excluded from natural energy augmentation or evidence to the contrary. You don't have any evidence proving it wouldn't boost Madara's _Susanoo_ for no explicable reason, and you're only saying that now because it suits your argument at this time; the burden of proof is on you, is what I'm saying (of which you've none).


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> He also claimed that it was very little chakra, so it likely gave him a fairly minimal boost as well.
> 
> ^ With Hashi's cells, he's several times more powerful? Hashi's cells do not enhance his physical reactions or ninjutsu for that matter. It was only implied to give him the ability to absorb ninjutsu (to an extent), the Rinnegan, and Mokuton. That was it. This is why when Edo Madara and Edo Hashirama duked it out as equals, Madara was still his equal which was further made clear by a fodder Shinobi making a rhetorical question that pondered if they fought like this at the VoTE.
> 
> *You have no argument as you made a baseless claim without backing it up, so looks like our arguments are legit.*



 wow so having all the perks of SM hashirama only the strongest ninja of all time not to mention his ocean of chakra doesn't enhance susanoo or sensing abilities?................................................................................


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> You do realize madara has Hashirama's powers in that fight? This entire thread is about valley of the end Madara which several other posters mentioned within this thread including myself in the OP post.
> 
> With hashirama's cells madara is several times more powerful and his chakra pool just increased by a huge amount. I don't think EMS Madara without PS can just sit there and take hits from tailed beasts and not either die or be mortally wounded after the 1st or second barrage.
> 
> You sir have no argument. Mabey you should read the OP before commenting.



Yes, i do. I also realise that Madara is not a super-duper-puper genious (although he is a genious) to master Hashirama's SM moments after he got it so he can boost his Susanoo. Can you prove Madara's Susanoo was boosted with SM at that time?

"several times more powerfull"... Dude, he had a little number of those cells. They allowed him to use some of Hashirama's mokuton. Its not like he is "several times more powerfull". By the way, i'd like to wait for a proof a little bit higher chakra reserves can boost Susanoo. The Madara himself cant take a single hit from Tailed Beast, but his imperfect legged Susanoo was durable enough to take at least 50% Kurama's hit, which is very impressive. 



> He also claimed that it was very little chakra, so it likely gave him a fairly minimal boost as well.



I think Hashirama's SM was a very huge and powerfull chakra. Maybe it was little for Madara because he got used to huge chakra's, you know. His own chakra reserves are great. It could be immense for, lets say, Minato, but wasnt all that immense for Madara.

Anyway, its not about the power of that SM - its more about the proficiency with that SM. Do you think Madara could master SM in moments to the extent he could boost his Susanoo with it? There is no proof in manga that Madara's Susanoo was boosted with Hashirama's SM.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 22, 2015)

You do realize Obito got Hashi's cells and he can spam kamui for 5 minutes straight without going blind and just keep using it once he recovers/recharges? If that doesn't say Madara's susanoo will be enhanced since it is a sharingan ability I don't know what will.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

Empathy said:


> He's proficient enough to perfectly balance it and fight with his eyes closed while completely relying on sensory (two things a long time user like Jiraiya didn't do). _Sennin Modo_ automatically boosts all your stats and jutsu upon activation indiscriminately; there's no reason to assume any of Madara's ninjutsu would be excluded for arbitrary reasons. Never mind the fact that _Susanoo_ being bolstered is perfectly consistent with its performance there. There wasn't any indication showing (and it would need to shown to prove an exception to the rule) that any of Madara's jutsu would be excluded from natural energy augmentation or evidence to the contrary. You don't have any evidence proving it wouldn't boost Madara's _Susanoo_ for no explicable reason, and you're only saying that now because it suits your argument at this time; the burden of proof is on you, is what I'm saying (of which you've none).



Sensing is not the same as boosting The Susanoo with Senjutsu chakra. Sasuke managed to do that because he had Jugo inside of his Susanoo to boost it. And because his Susanoo could easily merge with Jugo's chakra due to Orochimaru's injections. 

Jiraya has never shown the potential in jutsu as good as Madara. And Madara knew they were there not only due to sensing, but because he saw them standing there. 

Anyway, i'll wait for proof his Susanoo was boosted with senjutsu. There is no proof to that, no indications of it being boosted. At all.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> You do realize Obito got Hashi's cells and he can spam kamui for 5 minutes straight without going blind and just keep using it once he recovers/recharges? If that doesn't say Madara's susanoo will be enhanced since it is a sharingan ability I don't know what will.



Hashirama's cells passively boosts stamina. Thats the reason why Obito could use his Kamui so many times. There is no proof Hashirama's Sage Mode passively boosts The Susanoo. 

And do not compare a space-time ninjutsu with a chakra construct. These jutsu are completely different.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 22, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Hashirama's cells passively boosts stamina. Thats the reason why Obito could use his Kamui so many times. There is no proof Hashirama's Sage Mode passively boosts The Susanoo.
> 
> *And do not compare a space-time ninjutsu with a chakra construct. These jutsu are completely different*.



Please explain how they are different then show me where you got your info.

They both take chakra to use so they would both be enhanced.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 22, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> wow so having all the perks of SM hashirama only the strongest ninja of all time not to mention his ocean of chakra doesn't enhance susanoo or sensing abilities?................................................................................



 Madara doesn't seem to think so. Madara is the type of being who boasts about power ups. However, he literally claimed the chakra was so little which is never contradicted, meaning the boost he received was very minimal. 

 It does enhance sensing and regeneration, but this is all it really did for Madara. 

*Yet Nagato has already showed that he can,*

 Hell, here Hashirama stated that Madara received his past powers yet makes no mention of the Senjutsu power up that Madara received which means it didn't enhance his ninjutsu.

 I'm still waiting for your baseless claim that Hashi's Cells suddenly made Madara several times more powerful when Kabuto wanted to revive Madara at his prime. 

 Checkmate.


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## Empathy (Feb 22, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Sensing is not the same as boosting The Susanoo with Senjutsu chakra. Sasuke managed to do that because he had Jugo inside of his Susanoo to boost it. And because his Susanoo could easily merge with Jugo's chakra due to Orochimaru's injections.



Sasuke can't use _Sennin Modo_ and neither can Juugo; it's more of pseduo variant, imbued with less natural energy.



> Jiraya has never shown the potential in jutsu as good as Madara. And Madara knew they were there not only due to sensing, but because he saw them standing there.



Madara fought Sasuke without eyes was my point. He didn't gain the Rinnegan (and ability to see) until after the bijuu beat him down.



> Anyway, i'll wait for proof his Susanoo was boosted with senjutsu. There is no proof to that, no indications of it being boosted. At all.



How do we know that Naruto or Minato's _Rasengans_ while in _Sennin Modo_ are any stronger compared to them in base? What about base Naruto's _Oodama Rasengans_ (that stopped Madara's mokuton) or his _Chou Oodama Rasengan_ compared to being infused with _Sennin Modo_? Do we assume normal Madara's taijutsu to be good enough to smack around all the bijuu, because _Rinbo_ could incapacitate them all? Is normal Madara also durable enough to not be killed when struck by all the bijuu? Tsunade could smack around Madara's _Susanoo_ and break it, while Naruto stopped him in its tracks and barehanded his _Susanoo_ blade when he wasn't even in full bijuu form. Danzo could bust Sasuke's equal level of _Susanoo_, while _Sennin_ Madara's could resist all the bijuus' physical attacks. Madara's normal _Susanoo_ wasn't even strong enough to resist Onoki weighting them down. Why on earth would Madara's _Susanoo_ with Hashirama's cells and Hashirama's _Sennin Modo_, not be any stronger than without those things which are shown to improve every jutsu they augment? We know Madara's _Susanoo_ was stronger when infused with natural energy, because _Sennin Modo_ is stated to drastically improve all your jutsu indiscriminately and Madara was in _Sennin Modo_ at the time. There wouldn't be any proof to indicate it wasn't strengthened like everything else. Where's your proof that natural energy wouldn't make _Susanoo_ stronger? When was his _Susanoo_ shown to be as strong as it was normally?


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Please explain how they are different then show me where you got your info.
> 
> They both take chakra to use so they would both be enhanced.



Their effects are completely different.

But anyway, Hashirama's cells do not boost ninjutsu - they boost stamina. Thats why Obito could use his Kamui so many times.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

> How do we know that Naruto or Minato's Rasengans while in Sennin Modo are any stronger compared to them in base? What about base Naruto's Oodama Rasengans (that stopped Madara's mokuton) or his Chou Oodama Rasengan compared to being infused with Sennin Modo? Do we assume normal Madara's taijutsu to be good enough to smack around all the bijuu, because Rinbo could incapacitate them all? Is normal Madara also durable enough to not be killed when struck by all the bijuu? Tsunade could smack around Madara's Susanoo and break it, while Naruto stopped him in its tracks and barehanded his Susanoo blade when he wasn't even in full bijuu form. Danzo could bust Sasuke's equal level of Susanoo, while Sennin Madara's could resist all the bijuus' physical attacks. Madara's normal Susanoo wasn't even strong enough to resist Onoki weighting them down. Why on earth would Madara's Susanoo with Hashirama's cells and Hashirama's Sennin Modo, not be any stronger than without those things which are shown to improve ever jutsu they augment? We know Madara's Susanoo was stronger when infused with natural energy, because Sennin Modo is stated to drastically improve all your jutsu indiscriminately and Madara was in Sennin Modo at the time. They wouldn't be any proof to indicate it wasn't strengthened like everything else. Where's your proof that natural energy wouldn't make Susanoo stronger? When was his Susanoo shown as strong as it was normally?



Probably yes. He knocked down SM Naruto without Sage Mode. SM Naruto could lift a huge Nagato's summon and send it flying away. Also, Edo Madara blocked Ei's punch with his hands and Tsunade's kick without his hands being pushed back from strikes force. So he is very strong physically. 

How catching his Susanoo blade proves anything? How Tsunade's breaking proves anything, when it wasnt legged Susanoo (it was a Susanoo ribcage)? How does Sasuke's busted Susanoo proves anything (it was not equal to Madara's)? 

As for the rest - Madara didnt train his SM as much as Naruto did, for example. Durability and regeneration are passive Hashriama's SM abilities, as i know. Plus, i think its easier to be durable because of SM rather to make The Susanoo durable with senjutsu chakra.

And realy, all of the ninjutsu? Maybe you can provide a Manga/Databook statement for that?


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 22, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Re-read that chapter. Asura Path wasnt in the way of his Banshou Ten'in's range.
> 
> 
> 
> Naruto was under the Banshou Ten'in's range. Thats why he wasnt affected by it.


You have still failed to answer why Kakashi got pulled into Shurado rather than Tendo him self.


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## Empathy (Feb 22, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Probably yes. He knocked down SM Naruto without Sage Mode. SM Naruto could lift a huge Nagato's summon and send it flying away. Also, Edo Madara blocked Ei's punch with his hands and Tsunade's kick. So he is very strong physically.
> 
> How catching his Susanoo blade proves anything? How Tsunade's breaking proves anything, when it wasnt legged Susanoo (it was a Susanoo ribcage)? How does Sasuke's busted Susanoo proves anything (it was not equal to Madara's)?
> 
> As for the rest - Madara didnt train his SM as much as Naruto did, for example. Durability and regeneration are passive Hashriama's SM abilities, as i know. Plus, i think its easier to be durable because of SM rather to make The Susanoo durable with senjutsu chakra.



He doesn't need to train with certain ninjutsu to make them able to be powered up by _Sennin Modo_. Do you have any proof that every jutsu needs to be trained with in order to benefit from _Sennin Modo_? Once you gain _Sennin Modo_, it automatically improves everything indiscriminately. Naruto didn't need to train to be durable when he fell on those stalagmites; it just occurred naturally. Madara only gained regeneration from Hashirama's cells, not the durability. Do we assume Itachi can't resist Tayuya's genjutsu, because its senjutsu-enhanced version gave him trouble? Gaara could block multiple _Susanoo_ attacks from Madara, yet _Sennin_ Madara's _Susanoo_ tore through a joint fuinjutsu of Gaara and Shukaku. _Sennin_ Madara's _Susanoo_ was stronger than normal, because Madara was shown in _Sennin Modo_ when he used it.



> And realy, all of the ninjutsu? Maybe you can provide a manga/Databook statement for that?



All ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu. [_Link_] I'm sure there's more manga or DB statements I could find, besides all the manga examples demonstrating exactly what it says.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> You have still failed to answer why Kakashi got pulled into Shurado rather than Tendo him self.



Because he manipulated gravity in such a way Kakashi will fall to Shurado's blade. The gravity in his Banshou Ten'in was such Kakashi will fall to Shurado. 



> All ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu.  I'm sure there's more manga or DB statements I could find, besides all the manga examples demonstrating exactly what it says. [/QUOTE]
> 
> Ok, i guess the debate is over.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 22, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Because he manipulated gravity in such a way Kakashi will fall to Shurado's blade. The gravity in his Banshou Ten'in was such Kakashi will fall to Shurado.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, i guess the debate is over.


You claimed in the other thread he was the epicenter, so why didn't his arm move when pulling Kakashi? His arm would surely should've moved directions for Kakashi to hit Shurado.


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## Arofed (Feb 22, 2015)

Well Madara without PS still has EMS . What version? Kyuubi, Rinnegan, JJ, Mokuton??

Doesn't even matter lol.
-Itachi
-Nagato
-Sasuke
-Sakura
-Jiraiya
-Orochimaru
-Tenten


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## StarWanderer (Feb 23, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> You claimed in the other thread he was the epicenter, so why didn't his arm move when pulling Kakashi? His arm would surely should've moved directions for Kakashi to hit Shurado.



Well, it seems he dont need to move his hand in order to manipulate gravity as he wants. But he always move his hand when he activates that jutsu.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 23, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Well, it seems he dont need to move his hand in order to manipulate gravity as he wants. But he always move his hand when he activates that jutsu.


Not sure about that, especially considering the fact he used his arm for BT in the first place so if Kakashi was to move his arm was to move but obviously that clearly wasn't the case and he came flying into Shurado instead of Tendo.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 24, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Not sure about that, especially considering the fact he used his arm for BT in the first place so if Kakashi was to move his arm was to move but obviously that clearly wasn't the case and he came flying into Shurado instead of Tendo.



There is still no proof Shurado was in Deva Path's Banshou Ten'in's range.


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## TheGreen1 (Feb 24, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Sigh, CT alone says hi so does preta
> 
> OT - without PS, madara really isn't that much, so the stongest he could beat is SM Naruto



The fuck are you smoking? How is Madara without PS touching SM Naruto? Susano'o is the only thing that makes Madara any good. Frog Song utterly humiliates Madara no problem, and Madara's not seeing Frog Kata's coming for his head until he's already dead. Nagato couldn't see 'em, and those are Madara's eyes.

Edit: My bad, still has Regular Susano'o. Frog Song could still wreck him if he's not careful, but he's more likely to win over Pein Invasion SM Naruto.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 25, 2015)

TheGreen1 said:


> The fuck are you smoking? How is Madara without PS touching SM Naruto? Susano'o is the only thing that makes Madara any good. Frog Song utterly humiliates Madara no problem, and Madara's not seeing Frog Kata's coming for his head until he's already dead. Nagato couldn't see 'em, and those are Madara's eyes.
> 
> Edit: My bad, still has Regular Susano'o. Frog Song could still wreck him if he's not careful, but he's more likely to win over Pein Invasion SM Naruto.



Aye-less alive Madara easily, effortlessly outpased SM Naruto in the Manga. The only thing Madara needs to wreck SM Naruto is his taijutsu.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 25, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> There is still no proof Shurado was in Deva Path's Banshou Ten'in's range.


Except for the fact that Kakashi flew straight into him without Tendo moving his hand.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2015)

TheGreen1 said:


> The fuck are you smoking? How is * Madara without PS touching SM Naruto? * Susano'o is the only thing that makes Madara any good. Frog Song utterly humiliates Madara no problem, and Madara's not seeing Frog Kata's coming for his head until he's already dead. Nagato couldn't see 'em, and those are Madara's eyes.
> 
> Edit: My bad, still has Regular Susano'o. Frog Song could still wreck him if he's not careful, but he's more likely to win over Pein Invasion SM Naruto.



bodyslam both Naruto and Sasuke into the earth.

 He did it here.

 bodyslam both Naruto and Sasuke into the earth.

 And here.


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## Icegaze (Feb 26, 2015)

Minato alive is the strongest madara can beat without PS
Madara still has his fan correct 
Also unlike itachi madara can camp in susanoo forever . 

He also beats any of the gokage. In short he is high tier instead of God tier


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## StarWanderer (Feb 26, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Except for the fact that Kakashi flew straight into him without Tendo moving his hand.



Maybe he doesnt have to move his hand? Anyway, i havent seen a proof yet.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Maybe he doesnt have to move his hand? Anyway, i havent seen a proof yet.



 The panel obviously shows Kakashi being pulled into Asura's blade. I don't even know why this is debatable. We even see Pain manipulating his force prior to Kakashi going into the blade, so in all likelihood, he probably did move his hand.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> The panel obviously shows Kakashi being pulled into Asura's blade. I don't even know why this is debatable. We even see Pain manipulating his force prior to Kakashi going into the blade, so in all likelihood, he probably did move his hand.



Maybe. I'll watch those scans again, later.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Maybe. I'll watch those scans again, later.



 That was more directed towards Sanninme Rikudou who's constantly debating about things that are trivial.


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## TheGreen1 (Feb 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> bodily circumstance
> 
> He did it here.
> 
> ...



If I were a petulant child, so set in my ways that I couldn't accept when someone was right, I'd state: 
"That's not Not EMS/Regular Madara. He has Hashiboob. Thus, he was enhanced as stated by Kabuto." Which is 100% factual. 

But he did, without any eyes, tag SM Naruto so I concede your point.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That was more directed towards Sanninme Rikudou who's constantly debating about things that are trivial.


We see him put more force in not move his hand. You toss around words that in some cases describe your arguments.
But let's just say Asura wasn't in front of Tendo how do you explain the rock Nagato pulled?


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## Arles Celes (Feb 26, 2015)

A BM Naruto clone? Hachibi? Base Guy? These are his best performances without PS.

I guess he could defeat any of the gokage too. Possibly taking on two of them at once.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> We see him put more force in not move his hand. You toss around words that in some cases describe your arguments.
> But let's just say Asura wasn't in front of Tendo how do you explain the rock Nagato pulled?



 His hand was tilted up towards Kakashi's location after Kakashi's clone was stabbed indicating he did indeed move his hand.

 And what rock are you talking about?


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> His hand was tilted up towards Kakashi's location after Kakashi's clone was stabbed indicating he did indeed move his hand.
> 
> And what rock are you talking about?


The rock Nagato pulled against Naruto and Bee. It would seem it came from the water.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> The rock Nagato pulled against Naruto and Bee. It would seem it came from the water.



 It's likely the form of a technique that Madara used against the Shinobi Alliance where Madara summoned 2 enormous meteors. Of course Nagato's proficiency of the technique was to a much lesser extent.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2015)

Muu and young Oonoki plus some other people.


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## trance (Feb 27, 2015)

He canonically soloed Mu + a young Onoki without Perfect Susanoo. Considering the possibility off his Sharingan being a counter to Mu's invisibility + plus his extensive arsenal without Perfect Susanoo, I'd reckon someone around that level.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2015)

Trance said:


> He canonically soloed Mu + a young Onoki without Perfect Susanoo. Considering the possibility off his Sharingan being a counter to Mu's invisibility + plus his extensive arsenal without Perfect Susanoo, I'd reckon someone around that level.



The fight against Muu and Onoki happened off-panel. And Onoki was young. But i agree that EMS Madara can beat aither Muu, or Onoki even without PS.


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## trance (Feb 27, 2015)

True, it was off panel but it's implied that they were no match for Madara at all.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2015)

Trance said:


> He canonically soloed Mu + a young Onoki without Perfect Susanoo. Considering the possibility off his Sharingan being a counter to Mu's invisibility + plus his extensive arsenal without Perfect Susanoo, I'd reckon someone around that level.



That fits Madara's portrayed level.  Muu was high kage level, and Onoki was probably really strong.  Madara being able to casually take high kage with support by his lonesome fit him nicely into the god tier everyone feared him to be, without him using the samurai ghost mecha he reserved for Hashirama.  It took Onoki plus Gaara plus dat sage clone with the distraction of an entire division to push him beyond half Susano into preta path.  Madara had no knowledge of his opponents as well.


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## trance (Feb 27, 2015)

I think so too, especially given his general portrayal against the Gokage. Granted, this was an amped up version of Madara but I don't think he would be so condescending towards their strength if he wasn't far above an above average Kage level ninja without his full strength - i.e. Perfect Susanoo.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2015)

Trance said:


> True, it was off panel but it's implied that they were no match for Madara at all.



Madara called them children, had no damage, and Onoki was bleeding in a puddle while Muu spent the rest of his life in bandaged.  So yeah, whatever they did, it wasn't touching them.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2015)

Trance said:


> I think so too, especially given his general portrayal against the Gokage. Granted, this was an amped up version of Madara but I don't think he would be so condescending towards their strength if he wasn't far above an above average Kage level ninja without his full strength - i.e. Perfect Susanoo.



That's true.  He knew that whatever happened, he had Susano, Rinnega, Perfect Susano, mokuton, meteors, and at worst - edo regeneration to fall back on, and he never lost control of the fight.

The fact that he was amped up is why I stopped the example at using Rinnegan.  Obviously he could have thrown out perfect Susano, or maybe the fuller susano, or given his Susano feat to deny Gaara's attack opportunity in the first place had he known or had a need to be cautious.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2015)

Madara can beat most of the Kage in Narutoverse with his t*aijutsu* only, because of his speed. I'd say he can beat lots of people without PS.


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## Mercurial (Feb 27, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara can beat most of the Kage in Narutoverse with his t*aijutsu* only, because of his speed. I'd say he can beat lots of people without PS.



High speed, Sharingan precognition, top notch reflexes, high taijutsu skill, gunbai with Uchiha Return, Kage Bunshin, Sharingan genjutsu. His short range combat (non jinchuriki forms that are god tier) is pretty much one of the strongest.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> High speed, Sharingan precognition, top notch reflexes, high taijutsu skill, gunbai with Uchiha Return, Kage Bunshin, Sharingan genjutsu. His short range combat (non jinchuriki forms that are god tier) is pretty much one of the strongest.



Thats true.


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