# Katsuyu takes a Gauntlet



## Sans (Jun 12, 2013)

I have not thought in any great detail about Katsuyu, so I am curious as to what the BD consensus concerning her is. As such, the goal of this thread is to evaluate where the slug summon ranks on average in the Naruto setting.

Katsuyu will face the opponents listed. She is restored to full health after each fight, if victorious.


*Opponents*

Kabuto (Pre-Orochimaru integration)
Hidan
Naruto (all transformations restricted)
Tsunade (Katsuyu restricted)
Kakuzu
Sasori
Kirabi
Itachi


*Battle Specifics*

_Location:_ Sannin Battlefield.
_Distance:_ Twenty metres.
_Mindset:_ In-character.
_Knowledge:_ Full for both sides.​


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## BurningVegeta (Jun 12, 2013)

I didn't realise she did anything apart from heal and spit hot slime (until this day has only being used on a rock). In her Sannin battle she didn't do anything and that is the only time I recall her fighting. She resisted Chibaku Tensei and managed to withstand the corrosive Chakra of Naruto. I don't know if she would lose against this gauntlet but I doubt she could win either. Kabuto, Itachi would most likely seal her.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 12, 2013)

Interesting thread.

*Kabuto vs Katsuyu* Kabuto has nothing to harm her with, his chakra scalpels won't harm her at all since she can divide, and her acid blasts are probably too large for him to dodge in succession. That being said, he may be able to put her asleep with his Temple of Nirvana genjutsu - the fact that it targets such a wide area means even if she divides she's still subject to its effects. If that fails, he's dead meat.

*Hidan vs Katsuyu* Hidan is an easy win. He can't get blood from Katsuyu, because any time he hits her with his scythe she divides whatever part of her body was hit and divisions subsequently latch onto him. Thousands of clones can immobilise him and melt him with acid to the point that he has no limbs.

*Naruto vs Katsuyu* Even without transformations I'd say Naruto's ability to produce mass clones could rival Katsuyu's dividing abilities. I'm under the belief base Naruto is fast or evasive enough to dodge Katsuyu's huge acid blasts, but with so many clones that hardly matters. Rasenshuriken would probably kill Katsuyu divisions, but he can't make one large enough to kill the original, and I don't believe his clones are able to form the RS. Regular rasengans wouldn't work since the minute it makes contact whatever division was hit just breaks itself down into even smaller clones. 

Naruto can rely on boss toads to give Katsuyu trouble though, I think that gives him enough of an edge to trump her.

*Tsunade vs Katsuyu* Tsunade reverse summons her  But seriously, acid blasts will be difficult for her to perpetually avoid, I would say rashinshou could allow her to immobilise the slug but since Katsuyu has knowledge she'll know to just divide the minute Tsunade gets on top of her. Tsunade has no way of putting her slug down, Katsuyu wins.

*Kakuzu vs Katsuyu* Kakuzu's katon blasts will gradually wear Katsuyu down. If she fires acid at him he can counter it with a Raiton: Gian or something. However, if Katsuyu divides into thousands of slugs from the outset she might be able to ambush him with smaller, more subtle clones. His giant fuuton blasts will not damage the clones much, and his katon blasts will take a while to kill them. If enough clones can get behind him (baring in mind some divisions are palm-sized and easily missed whenever he's focusing on blasting away hundreds of others) they may be able to overwhelm him eventually, at that point he can be immobilised as divisions reform around him and blast acid in his face.

*Sasori vs Katsuyu* Sasori can't slice her with poisoned weapons, pierce her with iron sand projectiles, or crush her with iron sand blocks, because she can divide perpetually. His flamethrowers are too small to kill the original - at best they'll kill a few divisions (who take a considerable amount of heat damage to kill. See Kyuubi's chakra shroud). 100 puppet army will be gradually weakened by huge acidic blasts, and Sasori will eventually have no puppets to transfer his heart to because they'll all be bathing in pools of acid. Katsuyu is the perfect counter to Sasori, but since she's more focused on defense it will take a long time to defeat Sasori.

*Kirabi vs Katsuyu* Kirabi bijuu blasts the shit out of her. GG Katsuyu.

*Itachi vs Katsuyu* Itachi can probably genjutsu control her, though I'm not sure how that would kill her. If he can spam Amaterasu enough to set the entire slug ablaze, then he wins, but since Katsuyu has full knowledge of him she'll likely divide from the outset. At which point I'm not sure what Itachi can do to harm her. I don't think fireballs will be enough to kill divisions, nor will shuriken. Even his totsuka sword sealing would be a nightmare because he'd have to seal all 2002382899 slugs, which his stamina isn't going to allow. I actually think Katsuyu wins this.

So she loses to Kirabi, Naruto, and possibly Kabuto. She wins the rest.​​


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## Alex Payne (Jun 12, 2013)

Katsuyu's ability to divide won't save her from being scratched in my opinion. Smallest Katsuyu shown ain't too small for that. I also think her division-process isn't automatic and far from instant. 

Kabuto - nothing to damage her consistently. Temple of Nirvana has very low chances of working and it is his only viable ability to use here. I'd say Katsuyu wins.

Hidan - like I've said - he can scratch her. But how would the damage transfer work between two different species? And would division be able to counter that? Acid Spit might get Hidan before Ritual too. Full knowledge also grants Katsuyu the opportunity to split herself asap. 6-7/10 to Katsuyu imo

Naruto - ability to summon Toads + FRS + TKB > Katsuyu

Tsunade - She can pound her large form. Mini-Katsuyu swarm isn't overly dangerous to CQC-specialist with regen and good stamina. Tsunade might also land Ranshinsho on the normal form - which has good chances of being effective. I'd give it to Tsunade.

Kakuzu - Atsugai+Zukkoku, gg

Sasori - Satetsu, gg

B - Bijudama, gg

Itachi - lol


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## Ersa (Jun 12, 2013)

Rofl at any boss summon (bar Manda 2) beating any Kage level opponent. Otherwise Tsunade would be way stronger then she currently is.

Katsuyu beats Kabuto and Hidan.

Even else beats her low-mid difficulty.

B and Itachi stomp zero difficulty.

Inb4 Itachilevel Katsuyu.


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## trance (Jun 12, 2013)

1. Rape
2. Rape
3. Naruto summons the three big Gamas and stomp
4. I can see Tsunade being strong enough to lift Katsuyu and throw her around but that's about it. 
5. His Futon/Katon is deadly. But Katsuyu's division ability is solid.
6. Sasori's only chance is Iron Sand: World Order but even that's iffy because of her dividing ability.
7. Bijudama
8. Totsuka sword seal.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2013)

Kirabi
Itachi

These are the only two who can kill her with Bijuudama and Amaterasu/Totsuka.

The rest have absolutely no chance at killing a slug that tanks ST, Naruto's superheated chakras and can divide into thousands of smaller clones.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 12, 2013)

Totsuka can't seal thousands of clones though, can it? I mean would Itachi's chakra even let him stay in Susano'o that long?​​


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## Necessary Evil (Jun 12, 2013)

[].


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 12, 2013)

Necessary Evil said:


> [].





.​​


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## Necessary Evil (Jun 12, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> .​​



[_3_].


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2013)

GT and Necessary Evil.



Komnenos said:


> Kabuto (Pre-Orochimaru integration)



Kabuto eventually gets smashed, suffocated, or dissolved.



> Hidan



Hidan gets dissolved.



> Naruto (all transformations restricted)



Naruto has to draw on the Kyuubi's chakra for FRS, but with all transformations restricted I'm not sure that he's allowed to. . .

If he can use FRS and it engulfs Katsuyu's form entirely he wins. If not, he is going close-quarters against an anti-close-quarters summon with no way to put it down, and will eventually either get crushed, absorbed and suffocated, or spat on with acid.



> Tsunade (Katsuyu restricted)



Tsunade uses Shosen on her and sends way too much chakra into it, trapping her in a comatose state if not killing her.

I have a lot more faith in Tsunade's ability to do this to something of even this size than Kabuto's.



> Kakuzu



Katsuyu can take anything he dishes out without too much trouble, even Zukokku if Manda's shed skin can stay intact after Gamayu Endan- a far stronger Katon. And while his attacks are large, I don't think they have the actual force to push something as large as Katsuyu back in the other direction, so she'll have him constantly on the move as she advances towards him spitting acid (though he should be able to repel the acid).

If she splits off a few divisions from her back and has them sneak behind some boulders and wait, she'll eventually back him into an acid blast, which would be dangerous to take even with it being several times smaller than the original Katsuyu's.

So I could actually see her winning here but I'm unsure about her stamina levels without Tsunade's presence, which would be a big factor in this match.



> Sasori



Well with full knowledge hopefully Sasori won't stay in Hiruko for long. . .but Katsuyu is over 100m long, slamming her body against the ground at this starting distance would still crush him.

Assuming he gets out of Hiruko, Satetsu will either just push her backwards or cause her to split into her smaller forms and continue spitting acid everywhere. His flamethrowers won't do anything to her either with her being able to withstand KN6-8's chakra shroud for an extended period of time.

Thousands of slugs is a lot to keep track of, and a couple slipping away and acid-blasting Sasori from a blind-spot is within the realm of possibility.



> Kirabi



Bee blasts her to pieces with a Bijuudama. . .and then she reforms, at which point he does it again, and they keep going until Katsuyu eventually dies of chakra exhaustion before Bee breaks a sweat.



> Itachi



If Katsuyu splits genjutsu won't work because the slugs are independent of each other and Itachi does not use genjutsu battle-field wide like Nidaime Mizukage.

She'll split off the flaming parts of her after being hit by Amaterasu.

He'd better hope stabbing her with Totsuka doesn't just make her split around the blade like I'm thinking it would, otherwise he'll have to resort to repeated blasts of Amaterasu which is going to _kill_ his eyes.

Itachi's going to have to work very hard for his victory.


So. . .Katsuyu is pretty dang powerful.


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## Santoryu (Jun 12, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> *Itachi vs Katsuyu* Itachi can probably genjutsu control her, though I'm not sure how that would kill her. If he can spam Amaterasu enough to set the entire slug ablaze, then he wins, but since Katsuyu has full knowledge of him she'll likely divide from the outset. At which point I'm not sure what Itachi can do to harm her. I don't think fireballs will be enough to kill divisions, nor will shuriken. Even his totsuka sword sealing would be a nightmare because he'd have to seal all 2002382899 slugs, which his stamina isn't going to allow. I actually think Katsuyu wins this.



Don't take this personally, but the notion of Katsuyu defeating Uchiha Itachi is beyond preposterous. You can let Tsunade aid Katsuyu, and Itachi would still win, convincingly if I might add.



> tachi can probably genjutsu control her, though I'm not sure how that would kill her.


Probably?....We see that even Hebi-Sasuke had no problems controlling Manda against his own will, and I assume you're aware that Itachi's genjutsu is far more potent.



> If he can spam Amaterasu enough to set the entire slug ablaze, then he wins,


Yup.



> but since Katsuyu has full knowledge of him she'll likely divide from the outset.


Itachi has full knowledge himself, do you think he has what it takes to outwit a slug?

Obligatory "genjutsu+finisher GG"
call it wank, but it's far more plausible than Katsuyu defeating one of the most powerful shinobi Konoha has ever produced.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 12, 2013)

Necessary Evil said:


> [_3_].







Santoryu said:


> Don't take this personally, but the notion of Katsuyu defeating Uchiha Itachi is beyond preposterous. You can let Tsunade aid Katsuyu, and Itachi would still win, convincingly if I might add.



If you can suggest a highly probable way for him to defeat the slug, go ahead. I don't see how he can myself. Itachi is a stronger individual obviously, by a mile, but Katsuyu is a bitch to kill.




> Probably?....We see that even Hebi-Sasuke had no problems controlling Manda against his own will, and I assume you're aware that Itachi's genjutsu is far more potent.



I say _probably_, because the slug has no eyes. All you can do is speculate as to whether or not he could control her. I'm giving Itachi the benefit of the doubt.



> Itachi has full knowledge himself, do you think he has what it takes to outwit a slug?



With what? I'm open to ideas.



> Obligatory "genjutsu+finisher GG"
> call it wank, but it's far more plausible than Katsuyu defeating one of the most powerful shinobi Konoha has ever produced.



I won't call it wank yet. I'm just curious as to what this finisher is. He puts a clone under a genjutsu, and then what? The other gazillion slugs are at loose. So what does he do then?​​


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## trance (Jun 12, 2013)

Totsuka Sword seals the soul, right? Slugs have souls, right?


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2013)

Totsuka has to physically impale its target's body first in order to seal its soul.

However, stabbing Katsuyu would simply cause her to split in half and avoid damage.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 12, 2013)

hidan/kabuto lose

tsunade/base naruto draw~time-out win

the rest stomp~wind-fire/bijudama/saatetsu/amaterasu.

its not a difficult/iffy question at all 


.


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## Bonly (Jun 12, 2013)

Katsuyu vs Kabuto.

Kabuto doesn't have a way to put her down with his moveset. Katsuyu should win more times then not.

Katsuyu vs Hidan. with Knowledge she can spit acid at Hidan to melt the ground he stand on. No circle means no jutsu and no jutsu means he's not gonna get the job done. Katsuyu should win more times then not.

Katsuyu vs Naruto.

Naruto can just summon the chief toad or Ma+Pa and have them deal with her. Katsuyu loses more times then not.

Tsunade vs Katsuyu.

Tsunade sends her back to slug mountain.

Kakuzu vs Katsuyu.

Kakuzu lets out his heart beast and blast and kills Katsuyu.

Katsuyu vs Sasori.

He poison her and then finishes her off.

Killer B vs Katsuyu.

Killer B blast her to heal.

Itachi vs Katsuyu.

Lol. Itachi makes her his bitch and ends her.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2013)

Kakuzu's wind and fire don't exceed the temperature of Naruto's KN6 Cloak, and certainly do not exceed the power of CST, two variants that minor Katsuya clones tanked. More importantly, it's hardly large enough to kill a slug that size if spammed even 100 times. 

Sasori doesn't have a large enough dose of poison to put the slug to sleep, let alone cause mortal danger. It's fucking massive. The fact that she can split just means the poison kills the little clone that is around the area that Sasori scratched. She can also just spit on the friend at start battle- he's slow as fuck.

Gamabunta's water balls and oil fire bomb via Shima's Katon aren't going to kill Katsuya, they aren't even going to significantly injure her. Stabbing and smashing attacks just get split through. 

Amaterasu and Bijuudama are the only things that can kill her.


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## Melodie (Jun 12, 2013)

Lazers said:


> Totsuka Sword seals the soul, right? Slugs have souls, right?



Apparently it does not work like that in _Naruto_. Reference would be how Kage Bunshin could be compatible with the death reaper.


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> So she loses to Kirabi, Naruto, and possibly Kabuto. She wins the rest.​​




Katsuyu....solo Itachi...?

Tsunade's boss summon.....defeating Itachi? 

Weren't you the one who argued pro Gaara against Bunta on the basis that a boss summon had no chance against a Kage level Shinobi? Unless you've changed you views (which is common, I'll admit)...largest contradiction ever much?

Isn't there a bit of a tier gap between the slug and the 3rd or 4th most powerful Uchiha?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 12, 2013)

There's absolutely no need to be snide, Rocky.

Itachi is stronger than Katsuyu, I'm not dumb. He can put up a Susano'o and protect himself from her attacks, and generally has a much greater offense - he is in another tier. However, Katsuyu is massive tank, even if she isn't on the same level as Itachi power wise he has nothing to put her down so as long as she's divided into countless divisions. Katsuyu can't outright defeat Itachi but I'd bet he'd exhaust himself trying to Amaterasu and Totsuka blitz thousands of divisions.

Gamabunta beating Gaara in a desert field was different because the notion was completely laughable in all regards. My view has not changed, thank god. 

And yes, the world is a place where people can change their minds. Shocker.
​​


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> There's absolutely no need to be snide, Rocky.
> 
> Itachi is stronger than Katsuyu, I'm not dumb. He can put up a Susano'o and protect himself from her attacks, and generally has a much greater offense - he is in another tier. However, Katsuyu is massive tank, even if she isn't on the same level as Itachi power wise he has nothing to put her down so as long as she's divided into countless divisions. Katsuyu can't outright defeat Itachi but I'd bet he'd exhaust himself trying to Amaterasu and Totsuka blitz thousands of divisions.
> 
> ...




I didn't mock you. I was baffled at the belief, however. It was one of the most absurd statements I've heard from you. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I mean there's a limit.

When I speak of tiers, I'm not leaving any leeway. Let's take Minato & Sandaime Raikage. I believe that though Minato is tiered much higher, by "Feats" there is no feasible way for Minato to kill Sandaime since his destructive capacity cap's far too low. But I don't care much about feats if i notice a multi-tier gap. To the feat Nazis, I'll admit that Minato doesn't have the "firepower" to kill the guy. That doesn't mean I think Minato looses...I just believe if the two were to fight the author would invent a way for Minato to be victorious. 

If you are true to your word and believe Itachi is on an entirely different level, then your analysis on the fight we're dicussing makes no sense. You have Katsuyu the victor of a battle against someone tiers beyond her. Kishi would sooner draw a Hashi-Madz hentai scene before he writes that slug beating Itachi by _any_ means, including attrition.


________


I don't believe Bunta would defeat Gaara in the desert. If I said that, I don't know why. I do remember that when we discussed the match, the location was the Vote, which is a different ball game. Oh, and



			
				GT said:
			
		

> And yes, the world is a place where people can change their minds. Shocker





			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Unless you've changed your views (which is common, I'll admit)


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I didn't mock you. I was baffled at the belief, however. It was one of the most absurd statements I've heard from you. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I mean there's a limit.



Seems like you were implicitly mocking. Not that I care, but thats how it reads.



> When I speak of tiers, I'm not leaving any leeway. Let's take Minato & Sandaime Raikage. I believe that though Minato is tiered much higher, by "Feats" there is no feasible way for Minato to kill Sandaime since his destructive capacity cap's far too low. But I don't care much about feats if i notice a multi-tier gap. To the feat Nazis, I'll admit that Minato doesn't have the "firepower" to kill the guy. That doesn't mean I think Minato looses...I just believe if the two were to fight the author would invent a way for Minato to be victorious.



Then I guess thats where our thinking differs. Though, I believe Minato could beat Sandaime Raikage based on feats/implied abilities anyway, but I understand the point you're making. I'm no feat nazi, but there is such a thing as a bad match-up. Even shinobi who scale in different tiers can be a match for each other if one shinobi happens to have a handy advantage over the other. 



> If you are true to your word and believe Itachi is on an entirely different level, then your analysis on the fight we're dicussing makes no sense. You have Katsuyu the victor of a battle against someone tiers beyond her. Kishi would sooner draw a Hashi-Madz hentai scene before he writes that slug beating Itachi by _any_ means, including attrition.



If Itachi pulls out some super hax god level jutsu that has the same destructive capacity of a bijuu-dama, then he wins. Would Kishimoto do that when he's already seemingly pulled out every high level destructive technique he can use? I doubt it, somehow. 



> I don't believe Bunta would defeat Gaara in the desert. If I said that, I don't know why. I do remember that when we discussed the match, the location was the Vote, which is a different ball game. Oh, and



Actually, what I said was:



			
				Godaime Tsunade" said:
			
		

> *In most scenarios* Gaara can endlessly remove sand from the earth and swamp Gamabunta from all sides with giant sand tsunamis. His oil ' oceans ' ultimately wouldn't stop Gaara. In this scenario they're fighting on a water field, so he just washes the oil out of his sand and continues.



The notion of him beating Gaara him in on a sand field was hypothetical in that discussion, and you still seemed to contest it. Also:



			
				Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> Of course I recognise Gaara can't create that much sand in this match-up, but in most scenarios he would completely dwarf Gamabunta.



You either misunderstood me, or argued for the sake of arguing in that discussion.



> Unless you've changed your views (which is common, I'll admit)



Again, the way you're phrasing that seems to imply I change my views often. If I do, then again I reply with: I am allowed to.​​


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## Bonly Jr. (Jun 12, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Totsuka can't seal thousands of clones though, can it? I mean would Itachi's chakra even let him stay in Susano'o that long?​​



Do they not share one soul?


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## Alex Payne (Jun 12, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Kakuzu's wind and fire don't exceed the temperature of Naruto's KN6 Cloak, and certainly do not exceed the power of CST, two variants that minor Katsuya clones tanked. More importantly, it's hardly large enough to kill a slug that size if spammed even 100 times.


Physical damaga =/= elemental damage. Katsuyu with Tsunade's chakra channeling high-level healing tanked CST. Not Katsuyu alone.

And surviving KN6 cloak only gives Katsuyu the durability of Naruto's clothes.


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## Melodie (Jun 12, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Again, the way you're phrasing that seems to imply I change my views often. If I do, then again I reply with: I am allowed to.[/indent][/justify]



I am assuming that he meant "common" as "come on". Took me a bit to understand that, but oh well!



Bonly Jr. said:


> Do they not share one soul?



Could you argue against Hiruzen's case, then?



alex payne said:


> And surviving KN6 cloak only gives Katsuyu the durability of Naruto's clothes.



Let us not resort into that desperate counter-argument. Because we both know that it is wrong. Kishimoto did imply that it's hot by making Katsuyu comment on it's heat. And the only reason his clothes did not burn because this is a shounen in weekly shounen jump, and it would look ridiculous for the shounen main character to defeat the final villain of the arc naked.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 12, 2013)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Do they not share one soul?



That's true. Though, if this were the case then all of Orochimaru consciousness should have been sealed, that includes that which was sealed inside Anko and any other CM imbued experiments. Iirc, there was also a small part of him that escaped in the form of a tiny snake that wasn't sealed. There's also the Hiruzen argument, as others have mentioned.

I think he needs to make contact, I might be wrong, though.



Melodie said:


> I am assuming that he meant "common" as "come on". Took me a bit to understand that, but oh well!



. . I still don't understand 

Nice to see you back btw, Melodie.​​


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 12, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Physical damaga =/= elemental damage. Katsuyu with Tsunade's chakra channeling high-level healing tanked CST. Not Katsuyu alone.
> 
> And surviving KN6 cloak only gives Katsuyu the durability of Naruto's clothes.



^ this man, like myself, will not be bothered to entertain fallacious misinterpretation. I must commend...

...and also add that the slug tanked no such thing.

it merely helped the villagers to weather the seizmic aftershock of the crater-spawning blast, in colateral.  a direct ''boss level'' ST would suffice to de-summon any katsyuu form. _CST..._

but U did well enough against the No-limit-fal~nonsense that is routinely spewed on this particulr matter, *alex payne*


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## Bonly Jr. (Jun 12, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> That's true. Though, if this were the case then all of Orochimaru consciousness should have been sealed, that includes that which was sealed inside Anko and any other CM imbued experiments. Iirc, there was also a small part of him that escaped in the form of a tiny snake that wasn't sealed. There's also the Hiruzen argument, as others have mentioned.
> 
> I think he needs to make contact, I might be wrong, though.
> 
> ...



All that was for plots sake. This is hypothetical.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 12, 2013)

Pulling the plot card, Bonly? Alright.

and @ diadoralooto Katsuyu was everywhere during the CST. At least part of her was indisputably at the center of the village by the time the attack struck. Arguing otherwise is just stupid.​​


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2013)

> Physical damaga =/= elemental damage. Katsuyu with Tsunade's chakra channeling high-level healing tanked CST. Not Katsuyu alone.


What the fuck does Physical damaga =/= elemental damage mean? 

Are you suggesting Tsunade's chakra somehow makes other beings more durable? Are you suggesting Tsunade has the reserves to heal all of Katsuya's clones, then heal the injured ninja around the village? 



> And surviving KN6 cloak only gives Katsuyu the durability of Naruto's clothes.


Oh boy.

I guess Kishimoto is now permitted to draw porn in the manga? Just in, naked Naruto running around Konoha because Kishimoto forgot to melt his clothes, when his fucking skin was shedding before our very eyes. 

Your points are simply ridiculous.



> ...and also add that the slug tanked no such thing.


This level of fail is plainly brain busting. 

I actually have a headache now. This happens everytime someone denies canon logic.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jun 12, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Pulling the plot card, Bonly? Alright.
> 
> and @ diadoralooto Katsuyu was everywhere during the CST. At least part of her was indisputably at the center of the village by the time the attack struck. Arguing otherwise is just stupid.​​



Bonly's my father. Please madame, address me as Jr. I will soon be reverting to Namikaze though.

Well, am I really supposed to chill here and think Katsuyu's going to not get effected by the Totsuka? So what, she just shrugs it off? It really is true though, without the mentioned above, the plot could not advance.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 12, 2013)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Bonly's my father. Please madame, address me as Jr. I will soon be reverting to Namikaze though.



Yessir.



> Well, am I really supposed to chill here and think Katsuyu's going to not get effected by the Totsuka? So what, she just shrugs it off? It really is true though, without the mentioned above, the plot could not advance.



Well, if this match didn't grant her full knowledge then Itachi just stabs her and goes home for a nap. In this instance Katsuyu knows he can seal her, so she divides and renders that sealing ability null. Battles are situational, just because Itachi is tiers above Katsuyu it doesn't mean he will always be able to kill her. If you aren't willing to believe that then whatever. And yes but, without a lot of things, plot couldn't advance.​​


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Then I guess thats where our thinking differs. Though, I believe Minato could beat Sandaime Raikage based on feats/implied abilities anyway, but I understand the point you're making. I'm no feat nazi, but there is such a thing as a bad match-up. Even shinobi who scale in different tiers can be a match for each other if one shinobi happens to have a handy advantage over the other.




It depends on the gap, now doesn't it. Kakashi can technically beat Madara under fair circumstances. Kamui is just like that. However, I'm not ever going to argue that Kakashi beats Madara ever, because I know that wouldn't happen ever. I understand bad match-ups, but if the difference is huge, then it doesn't matter. If someone on the level of Gai has a bad match up against someone on the level of Kiba....it isn't going to matter.





> If Itachi pulls out some super hax god level jutsu that has the same destructive capacity of a bijuu-dama, then he wins. Would Kishimoto do that when he's already seemingly pulled out every high level destructive technique he can use? I doubt it, somehow.




That's not the route Kishimoto takes with Itachi. He would probably put all of Katsuyu's clones under some kind of mass Genjutsu that she couldn't counter. There is a 0% chance that Itachi would loose a fight to Katsuyu, and you know this. Kishi would invent something, and it doesn't have to be destructive. Might we recall the ass-pullness that was Izanami. 



> Actually, what I said was:
> 
> The notion of him beating Gaara him in on a sand field was hypothetical in that discussion, and you still seemed to contest it. Also:
> 
> You either misunderstood me, or argued for the sake of arguing in that discussion.




This is all irrelevant now. I concede all points regarding Gaara & Gammabunta.




> Again, the way you're phrasing that seems to imply I change my views often. If I do, then again I reply with: I am allowed to.




You're misunderstanding me. What is common is the changing of one's mind in general. It isn't anything personal against you. I do it all the time. Though I've never seen you actually change your mind before, which is why I noted the contradiction in the first place. Of course you are allowed to.


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## Santoryu (Jun 12, 2013)

there are good and bad matchups for almost every character, yes, but this is uchiha itachi vs katsuyu (a slug which is primarily used for support).

what's more likely, the slug splitting into all of them pieces and beating itachi or the slug falling to itachi's genjutsu? the latter.

who is faster, itachi or katsuyu? itachi.


who has a sharingan? itachi.

who has black hair hair? itachi

you get the point?

even if we stick to feats only, itachi would make katsuyu his slug.


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## Mithos (Jun 12, 2013)

Kabuto (Pre-Orochimaru integration) - *Katsuyu wins*. Kabuto has no way to harm her. Temple of Nirvana genjutsu may work but I'm skeptical; and even then, there's the problem of what would he do once she's asleep? If he attacks her, she'll wake up. The best he could hope for is to put her asleep and flee. 

Hidan - *Katsuyu wins*. Hidan can't hurt Katsuyu with his scythe or ritual. Besides her size, Katsuyu can divide to avoid damage. Katsuyu also implied that being forcibly split apart won't harm her either [1], so slicing her won't do any good.  Hidan eventually gets melted. 

Naruto (all transformations restricted) - *Naruto wins*. He can summon Gamabunta. According to Kishi the deadlock is Snake > _Toad > Slug_ > Snake. 

Tsunade (Katsuyu restricted) - *Katsuyu wins*. I don't see how Tsunade can put Katsuyu down, since blunt force damage is ineffective. 

Kakuzu - *Not sure*. Kakuzu's B-rank elemental jutsu aren't going to do a lot of harm to Katsuyu individually, but maybe he can barrage her to death? It would take a lot of hits to put her down, especially if she divides to avoid damage. Kakuzu is at risk of being melted by acid though, which would also take out his hearts in one go. 

Sasori - *Katsuyu wins*. She is a nightmare for Sasori. Blades weapons and Satetsu can't kill her since she can divide and survive being split/ripped apart; since she has no organs, even if Satetsu rips her into pieces by puncturing her, it'll just separate her into clones. Poison is ineffective because Katsuyu can simply detach the effected portions of her body before it spreads. Flamethrowers are somewhat dangerous, but honestly, Katsuyu can withstand extreme heat so she should be able to deal with them long enough. Sasori, unfortunately for him, isn't the most mobile ninja because of his style. That puts him at huge risk to be blasted by acid, which will melt his heart cannister. 

Kirabi - *Kirabi wins*. Katsuyu is hard to kill, but I think a bijuu-dama would do the job. If one doesn't finish her off, he can launch another one. 

Itachi - *Katsuyu wins*. While Itachi is much stronger and more dangerous than Katsuyu, he doesn't really have much to kill her in a 1 on 1 battle to the death. Amaterasu is countered by separating the effected area. Genjutsu won't kill; so while he could disable her and stop her from attacking him, he can't put her down with it. Once he attacks her, it should break his hold on her. Also, overwhelming him with sheer numbers sharply reduces his genjutsu's effectiveness. Magatama won't work, since it's blunt force damage and can be dodged by dividing. His only hope is Totsuka, but since Katsuyu can divide I don't see it working. It would probably just seal the part it punctures. It didn't seal the white snake that came off of Orochimaru, so if Katsuyu divides he just gets her clone. It comes down to this: Katsuyu doesn't have to offense to kill Itachi, but Itachi doesn't have the stamina to kill Katsuyu either. He may be able to take control of her with genjutsu - if that counts as a win, he wins. If he has to actually "kill" her, she takes it.



Santoryu said:


> there are good and bad matchups for almost every character, yes, but this is uchiha itachi vs katsuyu (a slug which is primarily used for support).
> 
> what's more likely, the slug splitting into all of them pieces and beating itachi or the slug falling to itachi's genjutsu? the latter.
> 
> ...




It depends on what the OP wants to determine the outcome of the match. If putting Katsuyu under a genjutsu and forcing her to reverse summon herself counts, he could win . But if he has to kill her, he can't. 

Also, it wouldn't be easy to catch her since she can divide into thousands of slugs - the Sharingan's weakness is numbers.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 12, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> What the fuck does Physical damaga =/= elemental damage mean?


It means that certain things are better suited do deal with specific kinds of damage. We saw Jubi laughing at Bijudamas before. Now it got hit with Amaterasu flames and is screaming in pain. Different damage - different result. 



DaVizWiz said:


> Are you suggesting Tsunade's chakra somehow makes other beings more durable? Are you suggesting Tsunade has the reserves to heal all of Katsuya's clones, then heal the injured ninja around the village?
> 
> Oh boy.


 Katsuyu clones were _wrapped around_ people taking damage. Healing Katsuyu in process = keeping the shield around people that buffers the damage. 



DaVizWiz said:


> I guess Kishimoto is now permitted to draw porn in the manga? Just in, naked Naruto running around Konoha because Kishimoto forgot to melt his clothes, when his fucking skin was shedding before our very eyes.
> 
> Your points are simply ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Can't see logic nor canon in your posts. Katsuyu staying with Naruto while he was in KN state is the same thing as Kishi leaving his clothes intact. He doesn't care about details like that. Killer B carries his notebook and pencil with him. Why those things aren't destroyed every time he enters V2?


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## Bonly (Jun 12, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Pulling the plot card, Bonly? Alright.​​



Not really, I don't like to play that card alot. My son on the other hand, he's a different case, wouldn't you say? 



Bonly Jr. said:


> Bonly's my father. Please madame, address me as Jr. *I will soon be reverting to Namikaze though*.
> 
> Well, am I really supposed to chill here and think Katsuyu's going to not get effected by the Totsuka? So what, she just shrugs it off? It really is true though, without the mentioned above, the plot could not advance.



What's this? You dare take up the name of Namikaze before the name Uchiha? You sicken me, I hereby disown you


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## Bonly Jr. (Jun 12, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Yessir.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if this match didn't grant her full knowledge then Itachi just stabs her and goes home for a nap. In this instance Katsuyu knows he can seal her, so she divides and renders that sealing ability null. Battles are situational, just because Itachi is tiers above Katsuyu it doesn't mean he will always be able to kill her. If you aren't willing to believe that then whatever. And yes but, without a lot of things, plot couldn't advance.​​



If his initial attacks don't work, he'd resort to Totsuka anyways. In any case, either of us cannot prove she'd get sealed. I see it as common sense. No matter if she's split, they share a soul, and they are eventually one at the end of the day. Like I said, we cant hand Orochimaru's feats to her because as I said, that was for plots sake, anyone could of figured that out. And this is hypothetical, so what am I supposed to believe?


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## Bonly Jr. (Jun 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Not really, I don't like to play that card alot. My son on the other hand, he's a different case, wouldn't you say?
> 
> 
> 
> What's this? You dare take up the name of Namikaze before the name Uchiha? You sicken me, I hereby disown you



Sorry dad... but the Colgate king must come first


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Itachi - *Katsuyu wins*.




You have no excuse. You tell me that Hiruzen & Tobirama somehow beat Minato, on the bases of strict author portrayal. Now you say Katsuyu beats Itachi based on strict feats?


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## Mithos (Jun 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You have no excuse. You tell me that Hiruzen & Tobirama somehow beat Minato, on the bases of strict author portrayal. Now you say Katsuyu beats Itachi based on strict feats?



If you read my post, I admitted Itachi is much more powerful. Katsuyu under most circumstances is not a big threat to Itachi - yes I admit that. 

But in a battle to the death/until your foe is incapacitated, Katsuyu has the edge because her division trolls all of his abilities so he cannot put her down.


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2013)

*[*]Kabuto (Pre-Orochimaru integration)*

If temple of Nirvana works, he wins. Otherwise he ends up losing.

*[*]Hidan*

Hidan loses as well. He has nothing to do.

*[*]Naruto (all transformations restricted)*

Naruto wins. Mass clones, summons that are > slugs, FRS.

*[*]Tsunade (Katsuyu restricted)*

Katsuyu wins in the end. Unless the slug gets tired.

*[*]Kakuzu*

Kakuzu might pull a win with his huge elemental attacks and being a long range specialist. If that is not enough then he loses.

*[*]Sasori*

Unless poison works on the slug, i don't see what he can do.

*[*]Kirabi*

Bijudama blast.

*[*]Itachi*

Amaterasu GG. Katsuyu can't see that coming. It's not a speedester and hasn't shown any reaction feats at all. Cerberus couldn't divide when that hit him and the fire covers huge targets quite fast, see the Hachibi. The slug can divide, but a lot of part of the mini katsuyus will still be burning to crisp, making it much smaller and the small parts of it can be dealt with Katon.

There's also the option of Totsuka blitzing the slug and sealing it.


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> But in a battle to the death/until your foe is incapacitated, Katsuyu has the edge because her division trolls all of his abilities so he cannot put her down.




Technically, Tobirama and Hiruzen cannot hit Minato, but that doesn't matter. You didn't look at the abilities in that fight, your argument was consistently "Minato isn't taking two Hokage-level Shinobi "

I'm wondering why you aren't giving the same type of response here.


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## Bonly (Jun 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Technically, Tobirama and Hiruzen cannot hit Minato, but that doesn't matter. You didn't look at the abilities in that fight, your argument was consistently "Minato isn't taking two Hokage-level Shinobi "
> 
> I'm wondering why you aren't giving the same type of response here.



Because the slug belongs to Tsunade


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It depends on the gap, now doesn't it. Kakashi can technically beat Madara under fair circumstances. Kamui is just like that. However, I'm not ever going to argue that Kakashi beats Madara ever, because I know that wouldn't happen. I understand bad match-ups, but if the difference is huge, then it doesn't matter. *If someone on the level of Gai has a bad match up against someone on the level of Kiba....it isn't going to matter.*



I know where you're coming from but we can't generalise like that - its entirely dependent on the scale of the advantage/disadvantage. In the most extreme examples someone like Moegi can beat Hashirama if he's at enough of a disadvantage or if she has a big enough advantage (him having no limbs, or her having an EMS sharingan and rinnegan, for example). Granted such an extreme scenario would never be written by Kishimoto, but the point still stands. I think Kakashi could defeat Madara with Kamui under certain circumstances; of course, not an Edo Madara who can regenerate. Kakashi is tiers below Madara but he's still a Kage level shinobi in his own right and has abilities that have the same potency as some of Madara's - as such its only natural to assume he can defeat Madara under certain circumstances (if his Amaterasu was banned, for example) even though he isn't generally anywhere near his level.

Its not like it hasn't happened before. Mizuki - who was generally stronger than an academy Naruto lost because he couldn't cope with the copious amount of clones, not because he was a weaker shinobi overall. Shikamaru beat Hidan because his intelligence was significantly greater, even though by himself he wasn't at that time on par with Hidan in terms of battle prowess. There are other examples too. Although I don't see Kakashi ever defeating Madara its only because there are other characters who for plots sake need to do so. If Madara had been distracted or something Kakashi could land a Kamui, and I could envision Kishimoto writing that if four Hokage, the rookies, and an entire army weren't standing behind him.







> That's not the route Kishimoto takes with Itachi. He would probably put all of Katsuyu's clones under some kind of mass Genjutsu that she couldn't counter. There is a 0% chance that Itachi would loose a fight to Katsuyu, and you know this. Kishi would invent something, and it doesn't have to be destructive. Might we recall the ass-pullness that was Izanami.



I could see him using a mass genjutsu, he was said to be able to use illusions on a wide scale, but could he do it to the point that he can actually put down Katsuyu? Thats outright hax, and at this point in the manga I don't think Kishi would ever have him do such as thing. Now if this were a character we hadn't seen much of with a lot of hype - like Kurenai, I'd agree, but Itachi has already shown so much and had so much screen time. I don't think this would happen.





> This is all irrelevant now. I concede all points regarding Gaara & Gammabunta.



Excellent.




> You're misunderstanding me. What is common is the changing of one's mind in general. It isn't anything personal against you. I do it all the time. Though I've never seen you actually change your mind before, which is why I noted the contradiction in the first place.



Alright then. The way it was worded it seemed personal. We're good.​​


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## Cord (Jun 12, 2013)

> Katsuyu vs Itachi



Amaterasu seems to cover a massive area of effect. Even though we assume that Katsuyu splits herself a thousand times, still isn't going to guarantee that those flames would fail to follow even her miniature versions and spare her from being incessantly incinerated. . . The remnants of Orochimaru's own white snake powers beg to differ.

Forget Tsukuyomi, forget Susano'o, forget all the generic ninjutsu in Itachi's repertoire and let him concentrate his chakra expenditure unto conjuring those black flames. Something tells me that such strategy would spare him from straining himself as opposed with what he's supposed to- when contending opponents of the same level as he is, while effectively taking his opponent down for good.

And really, I would love to see how this particular match up being drawn in the manga. By then we'll see who the author would favor more to come out alive and victorious.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2013)

> It means that certain things are better suited do deal with specific kinds of damage. We saw Jubi laughing at Bijudamas before. Now it got hit with Amaterasu flames and is screaming in pain. Different damage - different result.


You said Physical Damage is unequal to elemental damage.

Elemental damage is physical. Or do you consider it spiritual/psychological damage?

Kakuzu's Wind and Katons will not be damaging Katsuya to the point of death. They do not exceed the pressure of a CST and they do not exceed the temperature of KN6 Naruto's chakras. They aren't even that big. 



> Katsuyu clones were _wrapped around_ people taking damage. Healing Katsuyu in process = keeping the shield around people that buffers the damage.


They were blocking the force wave of the CST- which obliterated the village- and survived it. That's tanking the attack. 



> Can't see logic nor canon in your posts. Katsuyu staying with Naruto while he was in KN state is the same thing as Kishi leaving his clothes intact. He doesn't care about details like that. Killer B carries his notebook and pencil with him. Why those things aren't destroyed every time he enters V2?


Those details are irrelevant when compared to a clone that is sitting on a man who is covered in bijuu chakras. Of course he's not going to draw the characters naked. Of course he doesn't spend time thinking about a pencil and a notebook lasting through a transformation. There are inconsistencies throughout the manga- like Kimimaro's eyeballs not being squashed by a sand coffin, that he knows people aren't going to give a darn about. 

A living clone, which was feeding intel, is not something that Kishimoto would simply bypass when he draws Orochimaru's body being incinerated by simply touching said chakras. It's important. Katsuya is not a worthless notebook or a required piece of clothing. 

Katsuya sitting on Naruto's body, which was covered in concrete-busting pressurized chakra that incinerates the flesh of Orochimaru nearly instantly is not something Kishimoto would deliberately forget about. Katsuya was on Naruto because Kishimoto clearly wanted to show that she could survive the harsh nature of it. The fact that the slug already tanked CST and looks to be highly durable by nature just further solidifies the fact that it is indeed quite the resistant summon.


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I know where you're coming from but we can't generalise like that - its entirely dependent on the scale of the advantage/disadvantage. In the most extreme examples someone like Moegi can beat Hashirama if he's at enough of a disadvantage or if she has a big enough advantage (him having no limbs, or her having an EMS sharingan and rinnegan, for example). Granted such an extreme scenario would never be written by Kishimoto, but the point still stands. I think Kakashi could defeat Madara with Kamui under certain circumstances; of course, not an Edo Madara who can regenerate. Kakashi is tiers below Madara but he's still a Kage level shinobi in his own right and has abilities that have the same potency as some of Madara's - as such its only natural to assume he can defeat Madara under certain circumstances (if his Amaterasu was banned, for example) even though he isn't generally anywhere near his level.




Well I understand this to a degree. You're right, if one party is given enough advantage they will win regardless of "level". It's just, nothing as such applies here in this thread. In a standalone match, do you see Kishi writing Katsuyu being the victor?

Based off the feats and what we know of their respective move-sets, your post wasn't _bad_. It made sense by their showings. There's room for debate there as well, such as Tsukuyomi's effectiveness on the main body, but that isn't my point either.

For this isolated instance, you stripped away all forms of author portrayal. Katsuyu beating Itachi in my book is a ridiculous notion, just because of where Kishimoto holds Itachi & where he holds the slug. We may disagree, because everyone interprets fiction differently, but I just don't see something like this ever happening. 




> Its not like it hasn't happened before. Mizuki - who was generally stronger than an academy Naruto lost because he couldn't cope with the copious amount of clones, not because he was a weaker shinobi overall. Shikamaru beat Hidan because his intelligence was significantly greater, even though by himself he wasn't at that time on par with Hidan in terms of battle prowess. There are other examples too. Although I don't see Kakashi ever defeating Madara its only because there are other characters who for plots sake need to do so. If Madara had been distracted or something Kakashi could land a Kamui, and I could envision Kishimoto writing that if four Hokage, the rookies, and an entire army weren't standing behind him.




Those instances aren't really valid though. I did consider Naruto stronger than Mizuki once he learned Tajuu Kage Bunshin. That _is_ a forbidden Jutsu. Even though Naruto may have been inferior in some basic areas of the Ninja arts, I didn't really consider Naruto "inferior" to Mizuki. What gave you that notion?

With Shikamau and Hidan, Shika had prep. That entire wire-trap construct he put together off panel. Catching Hidan was impressive, but Shika doesn't win that fight under normal (fair) conditions. Look at their first encounter, where even Asuma wasn't enough.

I could see Kakashi beating Madara if the conditions were favorable enough. Though under fair ones? Nope, never. Since this thread has fair conditions in place, I don't see the slug beating someone on the level of Itachi. I just don't think it would happen.





> I could see him using a mass genjutsu, he was said to be able to use illusions on a wide scale, but could he do it to the point that he can actually put down Katsuyu? Thats outright hax, and at this point in the manga I don't think Kishi would ever have him do such as thing. Now if this were a character we hadn't seen much of with a lot of hype - like Kurenai, I'd agree, but Itachi has already shown so much and had so much screen time. I don't think this would happen.




lol If Itachi somehow returned to the Manga and was pitted against Katsuyu, he would gain something that allowed him to easily put her down. A large Genjutsu is possible, as like you said, it was hinted he could do something along those lines. It would be hax, but no more hax than lighting an opponent on fire by looking at them. You have to admit, "too hax" isn't a phrase that pops into Kishi's mind....or at least it isn't reflected in his work. 





> Alright then. The way it was worded it seemed personal. We're good.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 12, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> They were blocking the force wave of the CST- which obliterated the village- and survived it. That's tanking the attack.
> 
> .



at what point was CST ''blocked''?

or weakened or diverted at all? 

katsyuu acted like a pillow to some who were blowing & bouncing around thru the after-shock waves/winds. it tanked nothing.

did u miss the crater where CST _actually hit_? _thats_ ''obliteration''


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2013)

> at what point was CST ''blocked''?
> 
> or weakened or diverted at all?
> 
> ...


[1]

You believe Katsuya was not pushed or directly hit with that CST? 

You believe all of these ninja were not in the direct blast zone which scaled across nearly the entire village? [2] [3]
[4]

Hinata and Sakura are laying in the fucking crater
[5]

You believe being hit by massive rocks and blown apart buildings which are being pushed directly into your body then smashing you into the ground, leaving you pinned, is less impressive then being hit directly by the force wave only?


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Amaterasu seems to cover a massive area of effect. Even though we assume that Katsuyu splits herself a thousand times, still isn't going to guarantee that those flames would fail to follow even her miniature versions and spare her from being incessantly incinerated. . . The remnants of Orochimaru's own white snake powers beg to differ.



The flames had a considerable amount of time to spread (across a highly flammable environment) before they got that large, it isn't as though Itachi can just pump more chakra into Amaterasu and reach that kind of AoE in one go.

This is what Amaterasu launched by Itachi looks like differ , differ. Katsuyu will be able to split those divisions off long before she is engulfed in her entirety.

Though I believe if he uses the jutsu repeatedly he would eventually defeat the slug sooner or later, he'll have a time doing it.


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## Mithos (Jun 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Technically, Tobirama and Hiruzen cannot hit Minato, but that doesn't matter. You didn't look at the abilities in that fight, your argument was consistently "Minato isn't taking two Hokage-level Shinobi "
> 
> I'm wondering why you aren't giving the same type of response here.



The argument isn't the same. 

One is Minato vs 2 people portrayed as his peers, suggested to be nearly equal if not equal. 

The other is a battle between one entity that hard counters the offense of the other. 

In a real battle scenario, Itachi would defend himself against Katsuyu's abilities and go for the summoner. In this scenario he has to kill her, which he likely cannot do.

A lot of people on that list are much bigger threats to other shinobi than Katsuyu. But they lack the skills to defeat Katsuyu in a battle to death; the same is true of Itachi.


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## Cord (Jun 12, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The flames had a considerable amount of time to spread (across a highly flammable environment) before they got that large, it isn't as though Itachi can just pump more chakra into Amaterasu and reach that kind of AoE in one go.



I never said that Amaterasu (once conjured) is going to *immediately* engulf Katsuyu, in the first place.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> I didn't say that Amaterasu (once conjured) is going to immediately engulf Katsuyu, in the first place.



I thought that was what you meant when you said he would concentrate his chakra into conjuring those black flames.



My mistake then, .


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 12, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> [1]
> 
> *You believe Katsuya was not pushed or directly hit with that CST? *
> 
> ...



the underlined is exactly what i & the art work is implying.

the bolded is just blatant perverse interpretation of the artwork. theyre at the edge of the crater. the rest of the village is behind them, even if buildings were leveled there too; not the same as the epicenter.

:S its not a new strategy at all.

No, katsyuu didnt tank the crcrater-maker-no-jutsu. 
Pein shot it straight down, gouged out earth w/ an explosion & katsyuu aided with the shock of the explosion, in that order.

katsyuu ''tanked'' falling debris & rocks/building matter;etc


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Amaterasu seems to cover a massive area of effect. Even though we assume that Katsuyu splits herself a thousand times, still isn't going to guarantee that those flames would fail to follow even her miniature versions and spare her from being incessantly incinerated. . . The remnants of Orochimaru's own white snake powers beg to differ.
> 
> Forget Tsukuyomi, forget Susano'o, forget all the generic ninjutsu in Itachi's repertoire and let him concentrate his chakra expenditure unto conjuring those black flames. Something tells me that such strategy would spare him from straining himself as opposed with what he's supposed to- when contending opponents of the same level as he is, while effectively taking his opponent down for good.
> 
> And really, I would love to see how this particular match up being drawn in the manga. By then we'll see who the author would favor more to come out alive and victorious.



Cordelia here :amazed.

Not to mention that i do not see Itachi getting tire THAT fast if in his deathbed he could use Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu like twice and Susano'o. Even sick Itachi without being in his death bed should do considerable damage.

Fact is that Itachi having more reflexes will begin his assault first than the slug. And nothing stops him from burning most of the clones as they are dividing. However i do not see how dividing will have some big impact.

For example, if Itachi uses Amaterasu on Katsuyu's face and tries to cover a the most part of her body before she fully divides, most of her part will be vanished. Amaterasu covered Hachibi quite fast, and Itachi's have shown to be much hotter.

Anyway if this is drawn in the manga, Amaterasu will do the same as it did to Cerberus. I will hit Katsuyu and will not let her divide as she's suffering and dying.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> For example, if Itachi uses Amaterasu on Katsuyu's face and tries to cover a the most part of her body before she fully divides, most of her part will be vanished. Amaterasu covered Hachibi quite fast, and Itachi's have shown to be much hotter.



She'll just divide her face off before that happens.

Sasuke's Amaterasu surpasses Itachi's anyway and was far larger than any shot Itachi has displayed living or Edo, having covered a large part of the Hachibi to begin with as opposed to just spreading super fast.



> Anyway if this is drawn in the manga, Amaterasu will do the same as it did to Cerberus. I will hit Katsuyu and will not let her divide as she's suffering and dying.



I disagree with this.

The Cerberus, unlike Katsuyu, does not possess the ability to divide at will. Flames do not split things upon making contact, so the Cerberus' ability was rendered useless. Katsuyu on the other hand does not need to wait for an attack to split her, she can cast off the section she needs to.

He still wins of course, but I can't see a one-shot.


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> She'll just divide her face off before that happens.
> 
> Sasuke's Amaterasu surpasses Itachi's anyway and was far larger than any shot Itachi has displayed living or Edo, having covered a large part of the Hachibi to begin with as opposed to just spreading super fast.



It's 20 meters and an instant jutsu. She will be hit before she even realizes she's fighting (Not literally spoken). Katsuyu will have a hard time feeling pain as Itachi covers her entire body using Amaterasu, guiding the flames as he did with Sasuke. However, Sasuke has shown better manipulation. Itachi instantly vanished CS's durably skin and Jiraiya's fire resistant jutsu. Katsuyu could take heavy damage if not having her head completely evaporated by that.




> I disagree with this.
> 
> The Cerberus, unlike Katsuyu, does not possess the ability to divide at will. Flames do not split things upon making contact, so the Cerberus' ability was rendered useless. Katsuyu on the other hand does not need to wait for an attack to split her, she can cast off the section she needs to.
> 
> He still wins of course, but I can't see a one-shot.



Edit this part: Why flames do not split things upon contact?

Kishi is the guy that made Itachi have a Hokage mindset at 7, beating a Sannin at 13 if im not mistaken and made an S rank criminal one shot 3 boss summons (Pain). It seems that in his eyes, Boss summons are not a threat to fighters of Itachi's caliber or higher. As he has shown.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> It's 20 meters and an instant jutsu. She will be hit before she even realizes she's fighting (Not literally spoken). Katsuyu will have a hard time feeling pain as Itachi covers her entire body using Amaterasu, guiding the flames as he did with Sasuke. However, Sasuke has shown better manipulation. Itachi instantly vanished CS's durably skin and Jiraiya's fire resistant jutsu. Katsuyu could take heavy damage if not having her head completely evaporated by that.



I don't see Amaterasu being too painful for her to split.

Itachi has never conjured up a blast of Amaterasu capable of engulfing a boss-summon.

I can't see her being evaporated either. Sasuke isn't more durable than Orochimaru, and Orochimaru had to ditch his body to avoid disintegration by KN4's shroud. Katsuyu took KN6-8's shroud in mini-form.



> Cerberus multiply instantly by hit. It didn't even made sense that the dog couldn't multiply when he was hit by the flames if he did it against FRS.



The Cerberus has only multiplied when sliced. It can only split if the attack that hits it is capable of severing it.

FRS is just a blast that destroys chakra tubes, it does not slice targets with its explosions (the SM variation disintegrates, but Naruto wasn't using SM).

So it does actually make sense. Cerberus can't avoid _all_ types of damage by multiplying.



> His ability to instantly multiply without will by touching should be above Katsuyu's. Who, in certain circunstances, would not be able to multiply if desired (Genjutsu, for example).



The Cerberus has no ability to multiply without touching, so it _can't_ be above Katsuyu's because it isn't there.

Genjutsu on thousands of independent slugs. . .nah, I can't see it. I can see why people would think that, but I'm not sold on it.

Pain snaps targets out of genjutsu anyway.



> Kishi is the guy that made Itachi have a Hokage mindset at 7, beating a Sannin at 13 if im not mistaken and made an S rank criminal one shot 3 boss summons (Pain). It seems that in his eyes, Boss summons are not a threat to fighters of Itachi's caliber or higher. As he has shown.



That doesn't mean he'll one-shot Katsuyu with Amaterasu.

I'm not saying Katsuyu wins, but having a counter to jutsu is important just as overall strength is, and Katsuyu happens to have some measure of defense against Amaterasu. Of all the summons Itachi could face, this one just happens to be the most troublesome for his moveset.


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't see Amaterasu being too painful for her to split.



It made Hachibi and Juubi roar in pain considering that i doubt that FRS could have made it hotter.



> Itachi has never conjured up a blast of Amaterasu capable of engulfing a boss-summon.



Amaterasu works with line of sight. Why can't Itachi blast something as big as his eyes cover? He has the chakra for that unless he is in his death bed. But yet he doesn't need to, he can follow Katsuyu with his flames as he did with Sasuke and engulf a big part of her before she divides completely.



> I can't see her being evaporated either. Sasuke isn't more durable than Orochimaru, and Orochimaru had to ditch his body to avoid disintegration by KN4's shroud. Katsuyu took KN6-8's shroud in mini-form.



It wasn't that hot as to cause much harm on Sakura (And the floor KN6 was standing on) and Katsuyu was below Naruto's clothes. Yet, Amaterasu is hotter than that and more destructive than that.





> The Cerberus has only multiplied when sliced. It can only split if the attack that hits it is capable of severing it.
> 
> FRS is just a blast that destroys chakra tubes, it does not slice targets with its explosions (the SM variation disintegrates, but Naruto wasn't using SM).



I guess they are the same. And Cerberus was multiplicating when it was being hit by FRS. Yet, it's been implied that Cerberus multiplies when it's hit, not when it's sliced only.



> So it does actually make sense. Cerberus can't avoid _all_ types of damage by multiplying.



It looks like.



> The Cerberus has no ability to multiply without touching, so it _can't_ be above Katsuyu's because it isn't there.



In some ways yeah it's multiplication ability is better. A FRS that engulfs Katsuyu completely like the one used on Cerberus would kill the summon. Cerberus tanked that.



> Genjutsu on thousands of independent slugs. . .nah, I can't see it. I can see why people would think that, but I'm not sold on it.
> 
> Pain snaps targets out of genjutsu anyway.



I just made an example there. Not saying it would happen.



> That doesn't mean he'll one-shot Katsuyu with Amaterasu.



One shot no. I believe the summon will divide but after having a lot of part of her body in the flames. Anyway with Amaterasu is how he will beat her (Unless he stabs her with Totsuka and inmediately begins to seal her before she can fully divide.



> I'm not saying Katsuyu wins, but having a counter to jutsu is important just as overall strength is, and Katsuyu happens to have some measure of defense against Amaterasu. Of all the summons Itachi could face, this one just happens to be the most troublesome for his moveset.



I say it depends. Katsuyu cannot do nothing if the entire battlefield is engulfed in Amaterasu and if Itachi manages to engulf most of her body in Amaterasu before she divides.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> It made Hachibi and Juubi roar in pain considering that i doubt that FRS could have made it hotter.



The Hachibi would probably recoil in pain if exposed to the shroud as well imo, similar to how it did when it grabbed Utakata- of course that only exposed his hand and not a huge portion of his body, but if the shroud could cover as much of Hachibi as Ammy did then I'm sure we'd get the same reaction.

Katsuyu having been so small was exposed to as much of the shroud as I'm proposing.

Billions of flaming needles are bound to hurt more than the flames themselves.



> Amaterasu works with line of sight. Why can't Itachi blast something as big as his eyes cover?



Amaterasu works by line of sight in the sense of locking on to a target's position. It can't set everything at all visible to Itachi ablaze. That's why even as an Edo he only lit two heads on fire and let it spread from there.



> It wasn't that hot as to cause much harm on Sakura (And the floor KN6 was standing on) and Katsuyu was below Naruto's clothes. Yet, Amaterasu is hotter than that and more destructive than that.



It only tapped Sakura for the briefest of moments, her exposure wasn't sustained, and she couldn't even fully heal her arm for a long time.

The shroud is underneath Naruto's skin, which peels off. Katsuyu was still touching it directly. whole area

Amaterasu might be hotter, but so much so that it can quickly vaporize her when she withstood KN6-8's cloak for as long as she did- I don't think so.



> In some ways yeah it's multiplication ability is better. A FRS that engulfs Katsuyu completely like the one used on Cerberus would kill the summon. Cerberus tanked that.



In some ways yes, though FRS didn't engulf Cerberus completely.

But I was referring specifically to the detail that Cerberus can't split at will _without_ being touched. That isn't to say Cerberus's ability doesn't have advantages over Katsuyu's in certain instances.



> One shot no.







> I say it depends. Katsuyu cannot do nothing if the entire battlefield is engulfed in Amaterasu and if Itachi manages to engulf most of her body in Amaterasu before she divides.



If he engulfs most of her body it will only be the top layer, and she can slip those divisions right off while the ones underneath would require another use of the jutsu.


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> The argument isn't the same.




It isn't exactly the same, but there is a blatantly clear similarity. 



> One is Minato vs 2 people *portrayed* as his peers, suggested to be nearly equal if not equal.
> 
> The other is a battle between one entity that hard counters the offense of the other.




Look, you even used the word "portrayed". Anyone with a brain however can see that Itachi has been portrayed on a tier indefinitely higher than Katsuyu's. It doesn't matter if the slugh "hard counters" the offensive abilities that Itachi possess (it doesn't even really do that anyway). 

Minato is far too fast to be hit by either Hiruzen or Tobirama based on showings, especially in KCM. Your counter argument is that based on the portrayal of the Hokage, all of them sans Hashirama are near-equals. Therefore, Minato would loose to any two of them......and absolutely nowhere in that argument are the skill-sets of the three Shinobi mentioned. 

I can't help thinking that since we're now dealing with a Tsunade-related combatant, you've decided to go with whichever argument makes your case the strongest. The slugs portrayal is lol compared to Itachi's, and therefore, you've resorted to feats-only and trying to convince me that a slug is going to beat the most powerful illusion caster and a high-tier in the verse based on respective move-sets. You know, Base Naruto can feasibly beat Obito based on that, as Kage Bunshin counters Kamui _hard_. But I'm never going to argue that, because the claim is stupid if we look at how powerful Obito's been made out to be.

I'm shocked at the blatant hypocrisy. Minato is defeated because his Hokage peers have been portrayed as his equals. That's it. You never give a Jutsu vs. Jutsu analysis. Katsuyu doesn't even come near Itachi in portrayal, but now you say it doesn't matter because of move-sets? Make up your mind.


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## Alita (Jun 12, 2013)

I can actually see katsuyuu winning every fight here except against killerbee and that's only if he is allowed to go full bijuu for reasons already mentioned. Katsuyu is really powerful when you think about it. 

And when it comes to amateratsu, katsuyu could simply split her body up into multiple smaller forms of her self so only one body will be affected. And itachi can't amateratsu all the smaller ones since he doesn't have the stamina to do that so many times. 

If anything kakuzu has the best chance here over anyone else besides bee since he has way more stamina than the others due to the extra hearts and chakra reserves that come with them. He can play keep away and spam his large scale elemental jutsu which have hundreds of meters of range. It likely won't do anything to katsuyu but he can at least last for a long time.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2013)

> the bolded is just blatant perverse interpretation of the artwork. theyre at the edge of the crater. the rest of the village is behind them, even if buildings were leveled there too; not the same as the epicenter.


Hinata and Sakura are sitting in the fucking crater, which was submerged several hundred meters below the base level of the village and mine as well be the fucking grand canyon. How the fuck did they not get hit by the force wave? 



> katsyuu ''tanked'' falling debris & rocks/building matter;etc


Katsuya "tanked" a force wave that blew a massive crater in rocky mountain terrain. Katsuya "tanked" massively large sharp rocks and blown apart buildings pushed at a ridiculous velocity into the face numerous members of the village. Katsuya "tanked" CST and the debris waves resulting in it. She tanked both- the scans prove it. She's depicted covering ninja inside and outside the crater, in rock piles beneath the village level and in building debris piles at the village level. 

-snip- I posted the scans, you have pretty much nothing to go on at this point, which is likely the reason why I won't be commenting directly to you again in this thread.


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## Sans (Jun 12, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> It depends on what the OP wants to determine the outcome of the match. If putting Katsuyu under a genjutsu and forcing her to reverse summon herself counts, he could win . But if he has to kill her, he can't.



I'm uninterested in any specific scenarios being laid out, beyond what's needed to construct the thread. As I stated, I am genuinely curious as to how the BD perceives Katsuyu. All of the opponents are actually rather deliberate.



Komnenos said:


> *Opponents*
> 
> Kabuto (Pre-Orochimaru integration)
> Hidan
> ...



_Kabuto_

This incarnation of Kabuto is weaker than her. However, he has a decent, area of effect genjutsu. He was to (hopefully) test how Katsuyu fared specifically against genjutsu.

_Hidan_

Probably the weakest Akatsuki member, but between his immortality and ritual, there are aspects to consider. Can Katsuyu bleed?

_Naruto_

Was meant to be a measure of how effective mass clone attrition strategies are against her. Unfortunately I forgot to restrict his own summons, ah well.

_Tsunade_

Yeah, I just wanted to troll the Tsunade fandom with the possibility of her own summon killing her.

_Kakuzu_

Tests how effective mass ninjutsu assaults are against the slug.

_Sasori_

Between poison and Satetsu, has the tools to potentially overcome Katsuyu's annoying durability.

_Kirabi_

The jinchuuriki was to see if people viewed the Bijuudama - possibly the greatest chakra attack in the setting - as sufficient.

_Itachi_

Itachi was the most interesting for me. He is far higher than her in general feats and author portrayal. However, his move set as it stands would struggle with her. 




Melodie said:


> Apparently it does not work like that in _Naruto_. Reference would be how Kage Bunshin could be compatible with the death reaper.





Godaime Tsunade said:


> That's true. Though, if this were the case then all of Orochimaru consciousness should have been sealed, that includes that which was sealed inside Anko and any other CM imbued experiments. Iirc, there was also a small part of him that escaped in the form of a tiny snake that wasn't sealed. There's also the Hiruzen argument, as others have mentioned.​




These points had never even occurred to me and they are interesting. It seems there's a strong argument to be made against the Totsuka's spiritual properties. They aren't impossible to overcome through certain methods.



Rocky said:


> It depends on the gap, now doesn't it. Kakashi can technically beat Madara under fair circumstances. Kamui is just like that. However, I'm not ever going to argue that Kakashi beats Madara ever, because I know that wouldn't happen ever. I understand bad match-ups, but if the difference is huge, then it doesn't matter. If someone on the level of Gai has a bad match up against someone on the level of Kiba....it isn't going to matter.



Unfortunately though, I find myself in agreement with Rocky. Beyond a certain point, bad match ups stop making a difference to me. Itachi is one of the most powerful Uchiha ever and beyond the level of even normal Kage. Katsuyu is a boss summon, something that has been useful support at best since the Invasion of Pain. If Kishi finds that Itachi's current arsenal would struggle with Katsuyu, he would gain new feats to counter her impressive durability.

I will stress that this is just my opinion. Naruto is ultimately a subjective manga, and it is up to the reader to assign values to each piece of evidence to form their own world view. If you disagree with the idea that Itachi would gain new feats, or that he doesn't need them, that's entirely your prerogative. 



Rocky said:


> That's not the route Kishimoto takes with Itachi. He would probably put all of Katsuyu's clones under some kind of mass Genjutsu that she couldn't counter. There is a 0% chance that Itachi would loose a fight to Katsuyu, and you know this. Kishi would invent something, and it doesn't have to be destructive. Might we recall the ass-pullness that was Izanami.



At this point we're entirely into speculation, but I would not be surprised if Itachi unveiled some fuinjutsu to defeat Katsuyu. The Uchiha has only ever displayed one, but it was capable of sealing a Mangekyou technique and creating a primer for its activation. He has also transplanted Sharingan eyes into a crow, and has some method of controlling (to some degree) a Mangekyou technique by proxy. As a summon, Katsuyu would be presumably vulnerable to fuinjutsu to a greater degree than most, and it allows Itachi to win without granting him raw power that isn't his style.​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Well I understand this to a degree. You're right, if one party is given enough advantage they will win regardless of "level". It's just, nothing as such applies here in this thread. In a standalone match, do you see Kishi writing Katsuyu being the victor?



No, I see Itachi genjutsuing her and then skipping away merrily. In a match where she has prior knowledge of all his abilities though (a scenario that would never occur in the manga) things would play out differently because her defensive abilities are just as potent as his own; if not more so. 



> Based off the feats and what we know of their respective move-sets, your post wasn't _bad_. It made sense by their showings. There's room for debate there as well, such as Tsukuyomi's effectiveness on the main body, but that isn't my point either.



As with any other eye genjutsu, whether it would effect Katsuyu or not is unknown.



> For this isolated instance, you stripped away all forms of author portrayal. Katsuyu beating Itachi in my book is a ridiculous notion, just because of where Kishimoto holds Itachi & where he holds the slug. We may disagree, because everyone interprets fiction differently, but I just don't see something like this ever happening.



I do take author portrayal into account, but I also think the author isn't afraid to set aside general character tiers when creating scenarios advantageous/disadvantageous for either party. I do see Katsuyu potentially beating him in this specific scenario because although she isn't generally his level, she does have defensive abilities that are just as powerful as some of his own. Its like how Kakashi's Kamui is an ability that is much, much stronger than the rest of his techniques - its an ability that can kill even the strongest shinobi even though he himself isn't in their tier.  



> Those instances aren't really valid though. I did consider Naruto stronger than Mizuki once he learned Tajuu Kage Bunshin. That _is_ a forbidden Jutsu. Even though Naruto may have been inferior in *some basic areas of the Ninja arts*, I didn't really consider Naruto "inferior" to Mizuki. What gave you that notion?



No, Naruto was inferior in _all_ ninja arts. In taijutsu, in ninjutsu, in genjutsu, in speed, in intelligence - in everything. He had one forbidden technique that allowed him to do major damage to Mizuki and ultimately defeat him, but I didn't at that point perceive him to be an overall better or greater shinobi. It's a good example because its an ability that he could do damage to higher level opponents with even whenever the rest of his arsenal was comparatively much weaker.




> With Shikamau and Hidan, Shika had prep. That entire wire-trap construct he put together off panel. Catching Hidan was impressive, but Shika doesn't win that fight under normal (fair) conditions. Look at their first encounter, where even Asuma wasn't enough.



Shikamaru used his intelligence for that prep though, so meh. Most other shinobi would not have even been able to devise such a strategy, even with prep. This in itself could turn into a full blown argument but I will merely say that I believe preparation can be an extension of ones power, if its used skillfully. I don't think that match was unfair, I think it was Shikamaru at his prime. 



> I could see Kakashi beating Madara if the conditions were favorable enough. Though under fair ones? Nope, never. Since this thread has fair conditions in place, I don't see the slug beating someone on the level of Itachi. I just don't think it would happen.



I don't think we will ever agree, then.



> lol If Itachi somehow returned to the Manga and was pitted against Katsuyu, he would gain something that allowed him to easily put her down. A large Genjutsu is possible, as like you said, it was hinted he could do something along those lines. It would be hax, but no more hax than lighting an opponent on fire by looking at them. You have to admit, "too hax" isn't a phrase that pops into Kishi's mind....or at least it isn't reflected in his work.



Its true that Kishi is annoyingly hax when it comes to Itachi, but I don't believe he can pull anything Amaterasu-level out his ass at this point. Again, if it were a character with a lot of hype who wasn't given much screen time, I'd wholeheartedly agree. But Itachi has gotten so much of it and pulled so much out his ass already (its bound to be getting sore by now). I don't think he'll pull out a wide AoE finger genjutsu that has the potency to kill clones, its just too powerful, and I have faith that even Kishi in all his Itachi-basking glory wouldn't do that.



Komnenos said:


> Unfortunately though, I find myself in agreement with Rocky. Beyond a certain point, bad match ups stop making a difference to me. Itachi is one of the most powerful Uchiha ever and beyond the level of even normal Kage. Katsuyu is a boss summon, something that has been useful support at best since the Invasion of Pain. If Kishi finds that Itachi's current arsenal would struggle with Katsuyu, he would gain new feats to counter her impressive durability.
> 
> I will stress that this is just my opinion. Naruto is ultimately a subjective manga, and it is up to the reader to assign values to each piece of evidence to form their own world view. If you disagree with the idea that Itachi would gain new feats, or that he doesn't need them, that's entirely your prerogative.



I do see where you guys are coming from, and in many instances I would agree, but in this specific one; where Itachi has already done so much and fought against so many opponents, I don't believe such potent techniques would be introduced.​​


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## LostSelf (Jun 13, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The Hachibi would probably recoil in pain if exposed to the shroud as well imo, similar to how it did when it grabbed Utakata- of course that only exposed his hand and not a huge portion of his body, but if the shroud could cover as much of Hachibi as Ammy did then I'm sure we'd get the same reaction.



The Hachibi is like weak to hot things being an aquatic beast, though (At least in most Zelda games when Link has the water body or is transformed into a Zora he's weak to fire). Anyway, the Jubi isn't. And it was roaring in pain when Amaterasu hit it.



> Katsuyu having been so small was exposed to as much of the shroud as I'm proposing.
> 
> Billions of flaming needles are bound to hurt more than the flames themselves.



Because it would cover a bigger area. But that doesn't mean that it would not still be painful.



> Amaterasu works by line of sight in the sense of locking on to a target's position. It can't set everything at all visible to Itachi ablaze. That's why even as an Edo he only lit two heads on fire and let it spread from there.
> 
> It might've been enough, though. However,  if Itachi can lit two heads on fire means he can lit more than one target at the same time it's implying that Amaterasu is not a only a focused fire or locking into a target's position unless Itachi can lock two things at the same time.  (Of course we can say that with the distance he could lock on both heads as well).



Anyway Amaterasu spread incredibly fast *[...]* as it engulfed the Cerberus in no time. And he didn't redirected the flames to make it cover more area like here *[...]* (Count then Itachi spreading the fire and that fire spreading by itself as well at the same time) and notice the huge fire balls in the middle. It's not in a flammable part (not in the trees) unles that part is grass. And they are big.

Adding that to Itachi's speed and reflexes allowing him to react first, therefore attacking first, i rely on more in his ability to cover the biggest part of Katsuyu and shootting those big fireballs in the air to the Katsuyus that are multiplying.



> It only tapped Sakura for the briefest of moments, her exposure wasn't sustained, and she couldn't even fully heal her arm for a long time.



Yes, but it wasn't solely because of the cloack if i recall (most of it yes). But the hit as well.



> The shroud is underneath Naruto's skin, which peels off. Katsuyu was still touching it directly. *[...]*



Wasn't the slug between Naruto's clothes and his skin?



> Amaterasu might be hotter, but so much so that it can quickly vaporize her when she withstood KN6-8's cloak for as long as she did- I don't think so.



Might be much hotter. Itachi's is not like Sasuke with it's fail record. Anytime he had used Amaterasu he had burned almost instantly. Save Nagato, of course. But Nagato has a durable body enough to tank like nothing a Lariat that oblirerated Kisame in a weaker form and being blocked and absorbed by Samehada. CS2 Sasuke's skin can be more durable than Katsuyu, who doesn't have a hard body. Her body is suited for blunt force attacks but not to scorching attacks like fire. Also Orochimaru punched KN4 and was like nothing. The same with his sword. Naruto's corrosive cloack has only comments, but it pales in comparison featwise and hypewise with Amaterasu. At least Itachi's.



> In some ways yes, though FRS didn't engulf Cerberus completely.



True, though.



> But I was referring specifically to the detail that Cerberus can't split at will _without_ being touched. That isn't to say Cerberus's ability doesn't have advantages over Katsuyu's in certain instances.



I tried to say that as well.



> If he engulfs most of her body it will only be the top layer, and she can slip those divisions right off while the ones underneath would require another use of the jutsu.



Well i explained that above. It won't be a one shot. But the pressured one here will be Katsuyu, though. Itachi can cover the battlefield with Amaterasu after he had engulfed a good part of her body with Amaterasu.


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## Kai (Jun 13, 2013)

Matto-sama, why do you describe Naruto beating Katsuyu by virtue of "the deadlock" of Gamabunta > Katsuyu (Toad > Slug) but when you describe Itachi vs. Katsuyu, you have Katsuyu beating Itachi through feats and ignore portrayal entirely?

What is the logic that allows you to believe that Gamabunta > Katsuyu without an ounce of consideration for feats but Katsuyu > Itachi without an ounce of consideration for portrayal?

I'd say this is a clear case of bias at work here.

Katsuyu has the ability to split, but as we saw Gyuuki state in Sasuke vs. Bee, substitutions against Amaterasu cost the Hachibi a number of tails and chakra to get away; I'll assume the same goes for Katsuyu who will be risking parts of herself to the black flames in order to escape. It's also common sense that Katsuyu is less susceptible but more vulnerable to attacks while divided than when she is whole and one. Katon, flaming shurikens, and Magatamas would be nightmares for the smaller slugs.


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## αce (Jun 13, 2013)

How hard is it to track down her slugs and kill them? Serious question here.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 13, 2013)

Kai said:


> Katsuyu has the ability to split, but as we saw Gyuuki state in Sasuke vs. Bee, substitutions against Amaterasu cost the Hachibi a number of tails and chakra to get away; I'll assume the same goes for Katsuyu who will be risking parts of herself to the black flames in order to escape. It's also common sense that Katsuyu is less susceptible but more vulnerable to attacks while divided than when she is whole and one. Katon, flaming shurikens, and Magatamas would be nightmares for the smaller slugs.



Daibunretsu has never exhausted her before, there's no reason Amaterasu would force her into such a state. I don't doubt those afflicted divisions would _eventually_ die but once she's split up it won't matter since she can't be targeted. Also, if Katsuyu divides before Itachi chooses to use Amaterasu then she won't lose even half as many divisions to the black flames.

As for smaller divisions being susceptible, that isn't true either. Smaller divisions were still capable of taking the CST, Kyuubi's burning chakra shroud, and have the ability to divide like their original. Shuriken and magatamas will do nothing to the slugs, and katons may only give them light burns.

*Edit* And @ace, tracking the slugs down isn't the problem, its killing them all/a lot of them.​​


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## FlamingRain (Jun 13, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> The Hachibi is like weak to hot things being an aquatic beast, though (At least in most Zelda games when Link has the water body or is transformed into a Zora he's weak to fire).



Then why bring up the Hachibi roaring in pain as an example in the first place if it's weak to hot things?



> Anyway, the Jubi isn't. And it was roaring in pain when Amaterasu hit it.
> 
> Because it would cover a bigger area. But that doesn't mean that it would not still be painful.



I don't know how people come to attribute this to just Amaterasu, honestly. FRS made Juublings scream as well, they are smaller- but they got hit by a smaller version- and they have the same skin of the Juubi and had the same reaction to the same technique.

Amaterasu alone did not make the Juubi scream in pain, Amaterasu _combined with FRS_ did.



> Anyway Amaterasu spread incredibly fast *[...]* as it engulfed the Cerberus in no time. And he didn't redirected the flames to make it cover more area like here *[...]* (Count then Itachi spreading the fire and that fire spreading by itself as well at the same time) and notice the huge fire balls in the middle. It's not in a flammable part (not in the trees) unles that part is grass. And they are big.



It spreads fast, but doesn't seem to spread so fast that Katsuyu couldn't split off whatever the fireball hit before the majority of her is affected.

He hits the front of her and then the front of her falls off *[...]* , we know she doesn't have to completely break down unless she choses to since she didn't do so to carry Naruto away.

I'm pretty sure that was just him using Amaterasu more than once.



> Adding that to Itachi's speed and reflexes allowing him to react first, therefore attacking first.



I realize this, but I don't believe Katsuyu has to split before being hit.

Of course Amaterasu's small charge time taken with Daibunretsu's lack of one somewhat compensates for that anyway.



> Yes, but it wasn't solely because of the cloack if i recall (most of it yes). But the hit as well.



It was due to the chakra. Had it just been the hit, Sakura's medical ninjutsu would have had no issue with it.



> Wasn't the slug between Naruto's clothes and his skin?



Yes, being in contact with direct Naruto's skin = being in direct contact with Naruto's shroud.



> Might be much hotter. Itachi's is not like Sasuke with it's fail record. Anytime he had used Amaterasu he had burned almost instantly. Save Nagato, of course. But Nagato has a durable body enough to tank like nothing a Lariat that oblirerated Kisame in a weaker form and being blocked and absorbed by Samehada.



Itachi has fought less durable opponents.

Katsuyu would also tank lariat like nothing. . .



> CS2 Sasuke's skin can be more durable than Katsuyu, who doesn't have a hard body. Her body is suited for blunt force attacks but not to scorching attacks like fire.



How do you figure Sasuke's skin (which wasn't instantly burned away anyway Link removed) is more durable than Katsuyu?

Her body is no less suited to scorching attacks than CS2 Sasuke's.

In addition to that, Katsuyu stopped the villagers from being crushed by CST- that means she _has_ to be hard, otherwise she wouldn't have resisted the deformation the force would cause and whatever villagers were within her would have been killed regardless because Katsuyu would just flatten and be fine while they wouldn't.

I would also bring up her divisions falling to the ground hard enough to crack it and not turning into sheets as flat as paper. 



> Also Orochimaru punched KN4 and was like nothing.



And the punch carries with it the same detail Sakura being hit by its tail did- being a brief tap, not prolonged exposure.

The Kusanagi is a legendary sword, I seriously doubt it would melt from touching Amaterasu.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Kabuto (Pre-Orochimaru integration)



Kabuto can slice at Katsuyu all day with his chakra scalpel, but he will just spall off smaller Katsuyus each time. Eventually he will get tired and Katsuyu will either crush him or douse him with acid.



> Hidan



Katsuyu...doesn't really seem to have blood, so Hidan's really screwed. Like Kabuto, he's limited to hacking away at jelly that'll just turn into more enemies. Eventually, he will get tired and Katsuyu will douse him with acid.



> Naruto (all transformations restricted)



Naruto also lacks the offensive power to destroy Katsuyu. He does better than the previous combatants, but the result is still the same.

None of the toads can kill Katsuyu, either; the best Naruto can do is summon the Ni Dai Sennin and have them use Gamarinshou, but that will only immobilize Katsuyu temporarily and Naruto has no way to put her down for good.



> Tsunade (Katsuyu restricted)



Tsunade will have to drag or throw Katsuyu to the nearest active volcano or body of salt water, but she is at least capable of winning. Otherwise, she just smacks Katsuyu around until she gets tired and takes enough acid baths to deplete her chakra through regeneration.



> Kakuzu



With his Katon+Fuuton combo, I think Kakuzu would eventually be able to kill Katsuyu by roasting her. He's also durable enough to withstand her physical attacks and Domu would probably offer some degree of protection against Katsuyu's acid.

Kakuzu wins, albeit with great difficulty.



> Sasori



Again, Katsuyu doesn't even seem to have blood, so I'm not sure Sasori would be able to poison her. This makes me seriously wonder how Katsuyu could possibly function as a living organism, but I don't possess the knowledge to even begin speculating about that...

If he can poison her, it's a cake walk. If he can't...well, he's going to need those flamethrowers, and they probably won't be enough to take her down.



> Kirabi



After a Bijuudama or two, without Tsunade's Infuin chakra, Katsuyu is incinerated completely.



> Itachi



I see no reason Genjutsu wouldn't work; Katsuyu evidently has a chakra network.

On the off-chance it doesn't, Amaterasu will still destroy Katsuyu in her entirety or at least to a great extent before she can split away from it. A second Amaterasu could be used to sweep the remaining pieces if necessary.

Alternatively, one hit with the Totsuka no Tsurugi and it's game over.

Itachi is well-equipped to deal with Katsuyu.


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## LostSelf (Jun 13, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Then why bring up the Hachibi roaring in pain as an example in the first place if it's weak to hot things?



It's a Bijuu.



> I don't know how people come to attribute this to just Amaterasu, honestly. FRS made Juublings scream as well, they are smaller- but they got hit by a smaller version- and they have the same skin of the Juubi and had the same reaction to the same technique.



Juubilings =/= Juubi. I'm pretty sure that the Juubilings are lightyears weaker than the Juubi. Otherwise Sakura would one shot Juubi.



> Amaterasu alone did not make the Juubi scream in pain, Amaterasu _combined with FRS_ did.



Unless FRS made it hotter. It only made it bigger.



> It spreads fast, but doesn't seem to spread so fast that Katsuyu couldn't split off whatever the fireball hit before the majority of her is affected.



If he keeps using it like he did with Sasuke yes.



> He hits the front of her and then the front of her falls off _the power_ , we know she doesn't have to completely break down unless she choses to since she didn't do so to carry Naruto away.



If she divides like that with fire in her head then those burning slugs will keep burning the other ones below. If she only divides that part she will be smaller, Itachi will burn her again and will cover still more area.



> I'm pretty sure that was just him using Amaterasu more than once.



To follow Sasuke he kept creating flames with his sight though. Kind of like creating a wall of flames. This can be counted as to use it once since he didn't stop. The same he can do to Katsuyu. I bet my money on Itachi covering much more than the half part of Katsuyu with his sight like he did to Sasuke before Katsuyu divides. But that's just me.



> I realize this, but I don't believe Katsuyu has to split before being hit.
> 
> Of course Amaterasu's small charge time taken with Daibunretsu's lack of one somewhat compensates for that anyway.


Small charge time? Itachi kept using it until he got Sasuke and only stopped to protect his eyes as he was faking. That's in his deathbed, having used it before and having used Tsukuyomi plus being injured by Sasuke and having that huge strain on his eyes.

A healthy Itachi would keep shooting Amaterasu in a more efficient sequence while he follows Katsuyu's body with his sight, creating a line of flames that will inmediately begin to spread over her body. By the time she completely divides, the remaining slugs will be childs game for Itachi as they cannot even harm him.



> It was due to the chakra. Had it just been the hit, Sakura's medical ninjutsu would have had no issue with it.



Sakura couldn't heal the damage. Kabuto healed it and it was not mentioned why it was taking too long as much as i recall.



> Yes, being in contact with direct Naruto's skin = being in direct contact with Naruto's shroud.



Sorry, i meant above his clothes, not in direct contact. Also Kyuubi's shroud by no means seems to cause much damage there. It looks like it was ignored completely. Naruto's clothes were not even damaged. Of course, we can say that it's a shonen manga or whatever, but we can say the same about not damaging Katsuyu. And assuming that Katsuyu tanked the corrosive cloack, we can assume that Naruto's necklace did as well. 

Or Kyuubi's corrosive cloack in KN6 is no big deal, or the necklace has the same durability as Katsuyu (or a lot of durability) or Kishi didn't take into account that.



> Itachi has fought less durable opponents.



That doesn't make a diference. Katsuyu has never been in contact with something as hot as Amaterasu.



> Katsuyu would also tank lariat like nothing. . .



It's a blunt force attack and Katsuyu's body is made up for that. That doesn't make her body harder, in fact, it's not hard at all. It's just elusive.



> How do you figure Sasuke's skin (which wasn't instantly burned away anyway _the power_) is more durable than Katsuyu?



Because of the same fact. It's harder. Therefore would have a better response against scorching attacks like Amaterasu than Katsuyu, whose body is just elusive. I can try to kill a fish with my hand outside water and the fish would slide in my hands. Making it almost impossible to kill. But what if i put that fish in the fire?



> Her body is no less suited to scorching attacks than CS2 Sasuke's.



How do we know? Naruto's shroud was tanked by his necklace as well. I bet Kishi didn't took into account it's corrosive cloack like he did the last time.



> In addition to that, Katsuyu stopped the villagers from being crushed by CST- that means she _has_ to be hard, otherwise she wouldn't have resisted the deformation the force would cause and whatever villagers were within her would have been killed regardless because Katsuyu would just flatten and be fine while they wouldn't.



It's body is made to take blunt force attacks like i said. If anything landing on the summon was heavy not enough to splat the summon on the floor then the villagers she was protecting would not suffer much damage. And still, what CST did to the village was nothing compared to what it would do directly. I mean, an ANBU fodder survived it without Katsuyu



> I would also bring up her divisions falling to the ground hard enough to crack it and not turning into sheets as flat as paper.



Just because they are elusive doesn't mean they don't have weight. It's a giant summon after all.



> And the punch carries with it the same detail Sakura being hit by its tail did- being a brief tap, not prolonged exposure.



I didn't get this one, though.



> The Kusanagi is a legendary sword, I seriously doubt it would melt from touching Amaterasu.



Amaterasu is as hot as the sun .

Ok no. We never know. But Oro punched it and nothing happened. He pushed Naruto to flamable places such a forest and nothing happened either, Mokuton touched all his body and nothing happened, Yamato touched it and he was fine *[...]*.

Two corrosive feats, 4 fails. I wouldn't be surprised if Kishi didn't take that into account with KN6 just like he did here.

I'm not saying Katsuyu didn't. But considering that it has more failures than sucess, it wouldn't be so easy to assume Katsuyu did survived it like most people assume forgetting all this stuff and how Kishimoto acts sometimes.

We can agree to disagree here, but in my eyes, Kishimoto didn't take into account KN's corrosive cloack that time. Or did the same with Katsuyu, Naruto's clothes and his necklace, didn't took them into account in the cloack. Either way how we think, i don't think it's accurate to keep bringing something we're not so sure of as valid. I've seen that Katsuyu tanking Kyuubi's corrosive cloack argument a long time only taken into account by people supporting Tsunade.


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## Mithos (Jun 13, 2013)

Kai said:


> Matto-sama, why do you describe Naruto beating Katsuyu by virtue of "the deadlock" of Gamabunta > Katsuyu (Toad > Slug) but when you describe Itachi vs. Katsuyu, you have Katsuyu beating Itachi through feats and ignore portrayal entirely?
> 
> What is the logic that allows you to believe that Gamabunta > Katsuyu without an ounce of consideration for feats but Katsuyu > Itachi without an ounce of consideration for portrayal?
> 
> ...



Kishi has told us explicitly what the deadlock is. According to him, Gambunta > Katsuyu > Manda > Gamabunta. Feats don't matter here, because the author himself has made it clear. And from feats, Gamabunta would eventually wear her down because she will never hit him and Gama's attacks aren't taxing. 

I have considered Itachi's portrayal. I have admitted, multiple times now, that in any plausible scenario in the manga, Itachi would circumvent Katsuyu and prevail. That, however, does not necessarily equal to him being able to beat her in a hypothetical fight to the death. She has full knowledge, and her abilities troll everything we know and has been implied about Itachi's. In the manga, she would likely fall to genjutsu and Itachi would either de-summon her or just take out the summoner. She is not much of an offensive threat to him. And she can't defend her summoner against most of his attacks very well. But - she can protect _herself_ from them. In any actual fight in the manga, Katsuyu wouldn't do much to Itachi. But he wouldn't concentrate on her either. Here he has to. 

I find that I'm being called out for hypocrisy amusing, in all honestly. I have considered author portrayal and admitted that he only loses because of this specific scenario that heavily favors her. 

On the other hand, the people that normally go strictly by feats cry BS when his moveset and skill set don't work in a very specific, unrealistic scenario that would never occur in the manga. 

So what is she loses parts of herself? She can be thousands of slugs. If she loses a couple hundred, it's not life threatening. I didn't say she would win easily. 

Itachi's Katon jutsu aren't going to kill even smaller Katsuyu divisions, which can withstand the heat of corrosive Kyuubi chakra. Will it hurt? Sure. Is it going to burn them to a crisp and "kill" them? No. Shuriken is laughable. She can survive being forcibly split apart, as she told the alliance when they were discussing Mabui's teleportation. Slicing wouldn't do much, because cutting her would - at worst - cause her pain and make her into more divisions. Magatama is blunt force damage, and even Madara's hasn't shown the sort of power that would significantly harm her.

Katsuyu is certainly going to be in for a rough, painful beating against Itachi. But, ultimately, he can't kill her in this scenario. He will exhaust himself trying.


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## ueharakk (Jun 13, 2013)

If all of her minis can spit acid like she can in her giant form, then she's definitely a force to be reconned with.  If she can't, then I don't see her being all that strong offensively as acid spitting seems to be her only means of attack.  

Assuming her mini katsuya acid spit, the only people she probably wins against would be kabuto and hidan.

Tsunade's shockwave fist will send katsuya away, Naruto's FRS can't be tanked by her and he can summon toads, Sasori's magnet release takes out tons of katsuya's who don't have great speed feats, Kakuzu's massive AoE elementals takes them out in extreme numbers, Kirabee bijuudamas and Itachi amaterasus.


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## Rocky (Jun 13, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> I have considered Itachi's portrayal. I have admitted, multiple times now, that in any plausible scenario in the manga, Itachi would circumvent Katsuyu and prevail. That, however, does not necessarily equal to him being able to beat her in a hypothetical fight to the death.





What the...?

Bro,_ any and every single thread ever created in this sub-forum is a hypothetical fight to the death_. If you think Itachi would win in the Manga, then he wins in the Battledome. Your logic falls all over itself. If Minato were to _*hypothetically *_fight Tobirama and Hiruzen, you believe that he would loose as he hasn't been portrayed to the level of beating both of them at once. I'm fine with that. But when Katsuyu *hypothetically* fights Itachi, Itachi looses because he can't kill her? What happened to portrayal? I could technically say "Minato would never fight his fellow Hokage in the Manga, so just because he hasn't been portrayed to their level doesn't mean he can't win in a hypothetical battle to the death".  And that....is delirious and contradictory.

Ignore the fact that she can be summoned. If Katsuyu *alone* were to hypothetically fight Itachi in the Manga, then Itachi would disable her in some way. Going for Katsuyu's summoner means that Itachi cannot defeat her without her having an added weakness...and that isn't true.





> I find that I'm being called out for hypocrisy amusing, in all honestly. I have considered author portrayal and admitted that he only loses because of this specific scenario that heavily favors her.



Hypocrisy at it finest, actually.

This is a gauntlet with fair conditions. If Kishimoto wrote a fight between Katsuyu and Itachi under these conditions, you _honestly_ think he would make Katsuyu the victor?


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## Melodie (Jun 13, 2013)

What? No. We're hypothetically matching them up, but not with the idea as to how it would go in the actual manga. If that is the case, then there would be no purpose to most (if not all) threads in here (Mei vs. Hiruzen. Kakashi vs. Tsunade. Itachi vs. Sasori. Etc etc), as clearly plot and favoritism would play a part and render all of the other side's points moot. The fact that people are resorting into that is a proof as how desperate they're.

I must note that this does not make me believe that Katsuyu would end up victorious against Itachi, or Vice-versa.


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## Rocky (Jun 13, 2013)

Melodie said:


> What? No. We're hypothetically matching them up, but not with the idea as to how it would go in the actual manga.




Then I honestly don't know what you debate. Again, thinking like this leads to claims like "Kakashi Kamui's Madara right away GG". That's not how it would go in the Manga, so I think it's stupid. In your version of a hypothetically match up here though? It's a perfectly viable argument that cannot really even be countered unless the conditions are geared towards Madara.

There isn't any clear winner in the battle scenarios you mentioned, except that Itachi rolls Sasori.  Hiruzen, Mei, Kakashi, Tsunade....they're all of similar level. I would not find it ludicrous if Kakashi beat Tsunade or vice-versa. Therefore, showings can then determine the winner.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 13, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> It's a Bijuu.



And if it's weak to hot things it's irrelevant what it is.



> Juubilings =/= Juubi. I'm pretty sure that the Juubilings are lightyears weaker than the Juubi. *Otherwise Sakura would one shot Juubi*.



 so hard at this response.

Cho Odama FRS is also massively more powerful than FRS.

Juublings screamed because of FRS, it isn't a stretch to say the Juubi would scream because of COFRS.

It has nothing to do with Sakura at all, in any way, because she has no version of her punch >>>>>> than what she hit the Juublings with.



> Unless FRS made it hotter. It only made it bigger.



You know what. . .give me one good reason to believe it only screamed because it was hot.

It could have screamed because of having its cells targeted by fiery FRS and not given two flips about whatever the heck the flames would have done on the outside of it- and Amaterasu will not be targeting anybody's cells.



> If she divides like that with fire in her head then those burning slugs will keep burning the other ones below. If she only divides that part she will be smaller, Itachi will burn her again and will cover still more area.



In order for that to happen the entirety of the small slugs would have to be on fire- that's not the case, only the side of the slugs facing Itachi, where Ammy will hit them from, will be on fire. And the slugs do not have to slide down Katsuyu anyway, they can just hop off as they have before.



> To follow Sasuke he kept creating flames with his sight though. Kind of like creating a wall of flames. This can be counted as to use it once since he didn't stop. The same he can do to Katsuyu. I bet my money on Itachi covering much more than the half part of Katsuyu with his sight like he did to Sasuke before Katsuyu divides. But that's just me.



He didn't create a wall, he created three bursts of flame. If he only used it once and moved it there would simply be one big solid flame wall without any particularly large plumes like what we saw.



> Small charge time? Itachi kept using it until he got Sasuke and only stopped to protect his eyes as he was faking.



You act as if those three plumes erupted nigh simultaneously when we don't have anything suggesting that. We can't determine the amount of time between each one but we do know Sasuke was evading each of those.

He only stopped after he actually _hit_ Sasuke, he didn't slow down Amaterasu's execution speed.



> Sakura couldn't heal the damage. Kabuto healed it and it was not mentioned why it was taking too long as much as i recall.



It should be obvious then. . .as Sakura tried healing it even after Kabuto did when she couldn't jump through trees correctly in the forest.



> Sorry, i meant above his clothes, not in direct contact. Also Kyuubi's shroud by no means seems to cause much damage there. It looks like it was ignored completely. Naruto's clothes were not even damaged. Of course, we can say that it's a shonen manga or whatever, but we can say the same about not damaging Katsuyu. And assuming that Katsuyu tanked the corrosive cloack, we can assume that Naruto's necklace did as well.



 Stop.

How you would figure Katsuyu was on top of his clothes and still managed to crawl out from under them to talk is beyond me.

And the clothes argument is terrible, Kishi can't draw naked Naruto fighting Pain and you know it.

We can't say the same about Katsuyu because Katsuyu expressed that there was danger, so she was facing the same problem as the snake that _evaporated_ upon touching _a lesser version of_ the shroud. Had Kishi forgotten the shroud was corrosive Katsuyu wouldn't have said anything about it.

A chakra suppression necklace tanking a chakra cloak is no surprise.



> That doesn't make a difference.



It makes a big difference. Individuals far less durable than Katsuyu have survived Amaterasu.

And again Amaterasu has never vaporized anything upon contact, it takes time to burn, with Sasuke's wing, with the left over snake that touched it (oh wait, said snake would have died to the cloak as well ), with the Hachibi, with Karin, with Ay, with the fodder's armor, with Cerberus- more than enough time for Katsuyu to divide.

And we can't say that it instantly burnt through the toad esophagus either as we know Jiraiya had to sense it before running through the halls to check it out.

It is not nearly as hot as you are making it out to be.



> It's a blunt force attack and Katsuyu's body is made up for that. That doesn't make her body harder, in fact, it's not hard at all. It's just elusive.



It couldn't be just elusive or it wouldn't work as a defense. If you stuck someone in something that was just elusive and not hard, they would still be injured by something crashing into them such as a rhino or CST. Katsuyu protected those who she covered, so she has to be hard.



> Because of the same fact. It's harder. Therefore would have a better response against scorching attacks like Amaterasu than Katsuyu, whose body is just elusive. I can try to kill a fish with my hand outside water and the fish would slide in my hands. Making it almost impossible to kill. But what if i put that fish in the fire?



No, that doesn't mean it'd have a better response than Katsuyu unless something suggests that Katsuyu is particularly weak to heat- nothing suggests that as otherwise her division would have evaporate like the snake did against the shroud. That just means Amaterasu isn't hot enough to instantly vaporize crap like you said it could earlier.

And considering that Katsuyu had to divide to escape Manda instead of just sliding out of his wrap. . .that fish analogy fails.



> Just because they are elusive doesn't mean they don't have weight. It's a giant summon after all.



That wasn't my point, my point was that had it not been hard it would have just flattened like one of those squishy toys that sticks to the ground like a pancake when you throw it, and that's not what happened.



> We can agree to disagree here.



I guess we will have to. . .For now that is. This isn't over. 


*Spoiler*: __


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## Melodie (Jun 13, 2013)

@Rocky: Care to enlighten me as to how Naruto, Sasuke, or Sakura would ever lose a match in the battledome? If we go by your logic, these three should be invincible in here, and no matter what they do, it won't result to their death, and would end up victorious. No matter what happens.


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## Kai (Jun 13, 2013)

Matto-Sama said:
			
		

> Kishi has told us explicitly what the deadlock is. According to him, Gambunta > Katsuyu > Manda > Gamabunta. Feats don't matter here, because the author himself has made it clear. And from feats, Gamabunta would eventually wear her down because she will never hit him and Gama's attacks aren't taxing.
> 
> I have considered Itachi's portrayal. I have admitted, multiple times now, that in any plausible scenario in the manga, Itachi would circumvent Katsuyu and prevail. That, however, does not necessarily equal to him being able to beat her in a hypothetical fight to the death. She has full knowledge, and her abilities troll everything we know and has been implied about Itachi's. In the manga, she would likely fall to genjutsu and Itachi would either de-summon her or just take out the summoner. She is not much of an offensive threat to him. And she can't defend her summoner against most of his attacks very well. But - she can protect herself from them. In any actual fight in the manga, Katsuyu wouldn't do much to Itachi. But he wouldn't concentrate on her either. Here he has to.
> 
> ...


Matto, you're in over your head. Kishimoto never actually stated _anywhere_ in the entire manga that frogs>slugs>snakes>frogs. That is a relationship in the Tale of the Gallant Jiraiya where Kishi bases his characters on. That hype isn't even one from the manga to begin with.

Besides the point, looking at the feats? Where have we seen in any instance where Katsuyu has an advantage over Manda but weakness to Gamabunta? The last time we saw the three of them, Manda took the two of them on simultaneously.

Based on your entire reasoning consisting of more fan oriented thoughts, I said you were biased. Itachi is portrayed above Katsuyu's level even more clearly than Gamabunta is. We've seen his movements against Sasuke, Bee&Naruto, and SM Kabuto — Katsuyu's not landing a single hit on him if we consider three boss toad summons were outmaneuvered and incapable of hitting the Deva Path by himself.



			
				Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> Also, if Katsuyu divides before Itachi chooses to use Amaterasu then she won't lose even half as many divisions to the black flames.


That's more wishful in perspective. Let's look at the facts though; she doesn't have reactions greater or even on the level of Hachibi. Amaterasu is a tremendous pain in the ass for Katsuyu.



			
				Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> As for smaller divisions being susceptible, that isn't true either. Smaller divisions were still capable of taking the CST, Kyuubi's burning chakra shroud, and have the ability to divide like their original. Shuriken and magatamas will do nothing to the slugs, and katons may only give them light burns.


That was Katsuyu infused with Tsunade's Sozo Saisei jutsu against CST. Itachi can pin down hundreds of smaller slugs with his supreme kunai and shuriken skills like it's target practice. Are you actually starting to forget what he's all about?

If Itachi's Katon can even make Samehada, who absorbed all of its chakra, squeal because it was too hot, Katsuyu's smaller slugs are going to get cooked at the center of the fire.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 13, 2013)

Kai said:


> Kishimoto never actually stated _anywhere_ in the entire manga that frogs>slugs>snakes>frogs. That is a relationship in the Tale of the Gallant Jiraiya where Kishi bases his characters on. That hype isn't even one from the manga to begin with.



He didn't state it in the manga (he kind of played it out with the summoners themselves) but he did say it in an interview.

"_When you talk about ninjas, you invariably talk about frogs. There is a ninja manga whose main character is "Hattori-kun," who (as a joke in the story) does not like frogs, so this connection between ninjas are frogs is a close one [in Japanese Folklore, frogs are considered magical animals, and the oil from a frog's skin is a traditional ointment for wounds and other ailments]. The triad of snake, snail and frog is from Japanese mythology. The snake is more powerful than the frog, the snail is more powerful than the snake, and the frog is more powerful than the snail, making a "paper, rock, scissors" sort of situation. These three are collectively called the Sansukumi_."


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## Rocky (Jun 13, 2013)

Melodie said:


> @Rocky: Care to enlighten me as to how Naruto, Sasuke, or Sakura would ever lose a match in the battledome? If we go by your logic, these three should be invincible in here, and no matter what they do, it won't result to their death, and would end up victorious. No matter what happens.




You are missing the point. Plot is not a factor. You're pulling a Strategoob. 

We can tell general levels of the Characters without involving the story elements. Naruto doesn't beat characters stronger than him. He's lost before. Of course he isn't going to die in the actual story. That doesn't mean he's the most powerful guy. Killing off Naruto would majorly effect the story progression. There isn't any story progression in the Battledome, so that isn't an issue here. Think about it this way: if Kishimoto created an account here and frequently posted, do you think he would support Naruto alone over say, the Juubi?

I use the Manga to tell me who is stronger and thus who would win. You want me to reword so you can clearly understand my views? I don't debate how the fight would go in the Manga panel by panel....I use the Manga's portrayal of it's characters to tell me who is the stronger Shinobi, and then I label them as the victor in a hypothetical match-up (The Battledome).

If the superior Shinobi (or creature) is not clear, I delve into showings.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 13, 2013)

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the weakest Sannin has the strongest boss summon?


----------



## Kai (Jun 13, 2013)

Exactly like I said FlamingRain, it's not in the manga. And using portrayal to elevate Gamabunta over Katsuyu while ignoring feats but ignoring Itachi's portrayal in the same matter? That is a clear hypocrisy in reasoning.

Kishimoto has only referenced and elaborated on the tale in which his characters are based on. In the manga, we have never seen such a power relationship of those three be expressed. We did see, however, Manda taking on Gamabunta and Katsuyu at the same time in the manga.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 13, 2013)

Kai said:


> That's more wishful in perspective. Let's look at the facts though; she doesn't have reactions greater or even on the level of Hachibi. Amaterasu is a tremendous pain in the ass for Katsuyu.



Again, she just removes whatever parts of her body are afflicted by Amaterasu by dividing. She doesn't need top tier reactions, she just divides after she's hit. With full knowledge of his abilities, she can put her division abilities to good use. Amaterasu is barely anymore dangerous to her than it is to Itachi.




> That was Katsuyu infused with Tsunade's Sozo Saisei jutsu against CST. Itachi can pin down hundreds of smaller slugs with his supreme kunai and shuriken skills like it's target practice. Are you actually starting to forget what he's all about?



Tsunade has not and can not perform the Sozou Saisei on anyone else. Besides requiring too big a chakra source to perform on such a massive scale it shortens the users life span, she would never take this risk. She channeled all of her chakra through divisions to heal the wounded from the blast, even some people who were protected still took some damage (Shikamaru had a broken leg, for example), so it was evidently not in vain. And kunai/shuriken are not doing crap to slugs who can divide, never mind their durability.



> If Itachi's Katon can even make Samehada, who absorbed all of its chakra, squeal because it was too hot, Katsuyu's smaller slugs are going to get cooked at the center of the fire.



Except that a tiny division took Kyuubi's burning chakra shroud without taking any visible damage. Regardless of Samehada, the katons aren't killing divisions.​​


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 13, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> And if it's weak to hot things it's irrelevant what it is.



I wanted to bring him to the debate. 



> so hard at this response.
> 
> Cho Odama FRS is also massively more powerful than FRS.
> 
> Juublings screamed because of FRS, it isn't a stretch to say the Juubi would scream because of COFRS.


I still don't find sense in comparing Jubilings to the Juubi. Just because Juubilings were screaming doesn't mean that Juubi will. Juubi lings are light years weaker than the Juubi, unles you believe that those Jubilings can puff a Bijudama with one finger or can tank it. Of course not. juubilings =/= Juubi. 



> It has nothing to do with Sakura at all, in any way, because she has no version of her punch >>>>>> than what she hit the Juublings with.



No, you said that the Juubilings screamed against FRS to assume that Juubi would scream by the same attack when Juubi is much stronger and resistant by clear logic AND feats than the Juubilings. If BOTH of them are the same in durability like you are comparing, then Sakura could one shot Juubi as well. But no, they are not the same.



> You know what. . .give me one good reason to believe it only screamed because it was hot.



Hachibi was screaming, Samurais were screaming, Sasuke was screaming, and i guess Karin was screaming because Amaterasu. Sandaime Raikage was not screaming by FRS, Human path either only Kakuzu in the end. 

You say that Sage Mode FRS is stronger because it desintegrates. It wasn't enough to make Kyuubi who is much weaker scream in pain [...]. 

Now give me you a good reason to believe it was because of FRS when the attack only made the fire bigger.



> It could have screamed because of having its cells targeted by fiery FRS and not given two flips about whatever the heck the flames would have done on the outside of it- and Amaterasu will not be targeting anybody's cells.



I already explained this above.



> In order for that to happen the entirety of the small slugs would have to be on fire- that's not the case, only the side of the slugs facing Itachi, where Ammy will hit them from, will be on fire. And the slugs do not have to slide down Katsuyu anyway, they can just hop off as they have before.



Katsuyu divides with her parts going down. She has done that twice [...]. Dividing that way will only make the upper parts burning burn the lower ones and that's assuming Itachi just uses Amaterasu and stops watching and eating pop corn to give her a chance and make the fight more balanced when he's not.



> He didn't create a wall, he created three bursts of flame. If he only used it once and moved it there would simply be one big solid flame wall without any particularly large plumes like what we saw.



*You can clearly see a wall of flames (albeit not tall) being created as he follows Sasuke with Amaterasu.* He's not shooting balls of flames. He's casting Amaterasu all over the battlefield like a firegun.



> You act as if those three plumes erupted nigh simultaneously when we don't have anything suggesting that. We can't determine the amount of time between each one but we do know Sasuke was evading each of those.



We don't know. But we do have indications that he might have done it simultaneously. After all he used two big amaterasu fireballs with one shot with in Cerberus. So i don't see the crazyness on thinking that he could make three simultaneously. Sasuke was not evading those., The scan above shows Itachi shooting Amaterasu like a fire gun.



> He only stopped after he actually _hit_ Sasuke, he didn't slow down Amaterasu's execution speed.



And that's what i said. He stopped using it because of that. Why would he stop with Katsuyu?



> It should be obvious then. . .as Sakura tried healing it even after Kabuto did when she couldn't jump through trees correctly in the forest.



Did she?



> Stop.
> 
> How you would figure Katsuyu was on top of his clothes and still managed to crawl out from under them to talk is beyond me.



Because Naruto has clothes below his orange suit. and the Kyuubi cloack covered his clothes as well. She was in the middle.



> And the clothes argument is terrible, Kishi can't draw naked Naruto fighting Pain and you know it.



Katsuyu has the same durability as a necklace when it comes to fire then.. Kishi could have drawn the necklace evaporating then right? He clearly forgot about it.



> We can't say the same about Katsuyu because Katsuyu expressed that there was danger, so she was facing the same problem as the snake that _evaporated_ upon touching _a lesser version of_ the shroud. Had Kishi forgotten the shroud was corrosive Katsuyu wouldn't have said anything about it.



Did Katsuyu said something about it? Expressing danger doesn't mean she was talking about the corrosive cloack. It means she was talking about how  dangerous Naruto can be when he is in that state.

This is the only thing Katsuyu said about danger.. Nothing to do with corrosive chakra or talking about it.



> A chakra suppression necklace tanking a chakra cloak is no surprise.



No, the gem is chakra suppression. Not the necklace. It's just a normal necklace.



> It makes a big difference. Individuals far less durable than Katsuyu have survived Amaterasu.



Not clear proof that Katsuyu has strong defense against fire. Only blunt force attacks. 



> And again Amaterasu has never vaporized anything upon contact, it takes time to burn, with Sasuke's wing, with the left over snake that touched it (oh wait, said snake would have died to the cloak as well ), with the Hachibi, with Karin, with Ay, with the fodder's armor, with Cerberus- more than enough time for Katsuyu to divide.



You only listed two examples of Itachi's Amaterasu. The other ones are Sasuke's failed one. Itachi completely vaporized a fire proof stomach and Sasuke's wing, who has been tanking Deidara's bombs lasted no more than 2 seconds against Amaterasu. Cerberus was almost instantly killed. By the time Naruto jumped and Itachi looked back _after_ using Amaterasu, Cerberus was completely engulfed in the flames and it wasn't even shown screaming.

Nobody is saying that Katsuyu is not going to have time to divide. But most part of her body will be burned, those divisions will be burning in the floor and the other Katsuyus coming down as well. Itachi just has to cast Amaterasu on the floor where they are scattering and they are done for.



> And we can't say that it instantly burnt through the toad esophagus either as we know Jiraiya had to sense it before running through the halls to check it out.



 What? Itachi closed his eye like he does when he's activating MS, just at that same time Jiraiya sensed the stomach burned. His surprised look at the same time Itachi used Amaterasu *clearly indicates that his Amaterasu swiftly  burned his jutsu.*



> It is not nearly as hot as you are making it out to be.



As hot as the sun.




> It couldn't be just elusive or it wouldn't work as a defense. If you stuck someone in something that was just elusive and not hard, they would still be injured by something crashing into them such as a rhino or CST. Katsuyu protected those who she covered, so she has to be hard.



She's not that hard if we consider that Manda's constrict was shrinking her before she used her division[/URL] (Yeah i know that snakes have a thought constrict), anyway, Katsuyu had no problem surviving. It's not as if CST did that big damage to the villagers if a fodder random ANBU survived without Katsuyu and being near the center of the village.

Katsuyu being affected by Manda's constrict and being ok against Chibaku Tensei in her mini form heavily implies that Katsuyu was not factored by Kishimoto in that fight for nothing more than giving information. Unless we think that Manda's constrict is stronger than CT's absorbing pressure.



> No, that doesn't mean it'd have a better response than Katsuyu unless something suggests that Katsuyu is particularly weak to heat- nothing suggests that as otherwise her division would have evaporate like the snake did against the shroud. That just means Amaterasu isn't hot enough to instantly vaporize crap like you said it could earlier.



Assuming Kishi took into account that KN6's shroud was a factor there since not even Katsuyu made a comment on it and that Sasuke's wind will be vaporized with that corrosive chakra when Oro and Yamato's fist, nor the mokuton or his trees didn't.

And, of course, assuming that KN's corrosive cloack that did nothing to the forest, Oro's and Yamato's fist and Naruto's necklace is as hot as Amaterasu.



> And considering that Katsuyu had to divide to escape Manda instead of just sliding out of his wrap. . .that fish analogy fails.



Got me there. Still doesn't deny the nature of the summon (A freaking slug) who is meant to take blunt force attacks. Diferent to scorching ones.



> That wasn't my point, my point was that had it not been hard it would have just flattened like one of those squishy toys that sticks to the ground like a pancake when you throw it, and that's not what happened.


----------



## Kai (Jun 13, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Again, she just removes whatever parts of her body are afflicted by Amaterasu by dividing. She doesn't need top tier reactions, she just divides after she's hit. With full knowledge of his abilities, she can put her division abilities to good use. Amaterasu is barely anymore dangerous to her than it is to Itachi.​



BM Bee substituted after he was hit and Gyuuki remarked how he gave up several tentacles just so they could get away.

Katsuyu, who does not have the level of reactions as Bee/Gyuuki, is not dividing unharmed, even _after_ she is struck by Amaterasu.



			
				Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> Tsunade has not and can not perform the Sozou Saisei on anyone else. Besides requiring too big a chakra source to perform on such a massive scale it shortens the users life span, she would never take this risk. She channeled all of her chakra through divisions to heal the wounded from the blast, even some people who were protected still took some damage (Shikamaru had a broken leg, for example), so it was evidently not in vain.


It was stated Tsunade transferred all of her chakra through Katsuyu — she used Sozo Saisei through Katsuyu to whom she transferred all of her chakra.

Katsuyu, who was struck by CST, was also under the influence of Tsunade's Sozo Saisei. That doesn't mean she has any more durability than the villagers in which Sozo Saisei was used on to protect them from CST.



			
				Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> And kunai/shuriken are not doing crap to slugs who can divide, never mind their durability.


We have not seen Katsuyu divide into slugs any smaller than a kunai or shuriken can pin down to the ground. Itachi, as seen in his fight with Sasuke, has access to hundreds of shuriken.



			
				Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> Except that a tiny division took Kyuubi's burning chakra shroud without taking any visible damage. Regardless of Samehada, the katons aren't killing divisions.


Who says she was in or on the cloak during the entire time Naruto was transformed?


----------



## Cord (Jun 13, 2013)

Melodie said:


> What? No. We're hypothetically matching them up, but not with the idea as to how it would go in the actual manga. If that is the case, then there would be no purpose to most (if not all) threads in here (Mei vs. Hiruzen. Kakashi vs. Tsunade. Itachi vs. Sasori. Etc etc), as clearly plot and favoritism would play a part and render all of the other side's points moot. The fact that people are resorting into that is a proof as how desperate they're.



And this is where people often mistake manga/author and character portrayal with plot shields and automatically assume that a simulation of an actual fight is also dictated by the plot. Which isn't.

In line with Rocky's reasoning, I don't think it's completely unreasonable to analyze a hypothetical match up in a manner that also simulates a canon fight. Considering we already have the author's portrayal to go by,  which also screams the difference in levels between certain characters- and of course, by all means, *excludes* the plot. This particular match up is just one, amongst a plethora of examples of obvious level gaps between characters.

Certainly, Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura (the examples you cited) are protected by the plot, but that's not what should be debated here nor are we using the plot card to justify how each of them would defeat someone like Madara or Hashirama as the three of them haven't been portrayed to be capable of doing so, to begin with. It should be given that the plot doesn't have any business influencing a mere simulation in a Bottledome thread.

Also, you're in no position to call others' arguments as _'desperate'_ just because you don't support them.


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## Mithos (Jun 14, 2013)

Kai said:


> Matto, you're in over your head. Kishimoto never actually stated _anywhere_ in the entire manga that frogs>slugs>snakes>frogs. That is a relationship in the Tale of the Gallant Jiraiya where Kishi bases his characters on. That hype isn't even one from the manga to begin with.



The relationship has been layed out, plain and clear. And as FlamingRain posted, Kishi has told us what it is. 



Kai said:


> Besides the point, looking at the feats? Where have we seen in any instance where Katsuyu has an advantage over Manda but weakness to Gamabunta? The last time we saw the three of them, Manda took the two of them on simultaneously.



Manda cannot actually do significant damage to Katsuyu, as we saw. That's why Katsuyu > Manda. Katsuyu is a defensive summon that relies largely on outlasting her opponent. 



> NINJUTSU; Katsuyu Daibunretsu (Katsuyu's Grand Division of the Slugs*)
> User: Katsuyu
> Supplementary; Rank: none
> 
> ...






Kai said:


> Based on your entire reasoning consisting of more fan oriented thoughts, I said you were biased. Itachi is portrayed above Katsuyu's level even more clearly than Gamabunta is. We've seen his movements against Sasuke, Bee&Naruto, and SM Kabuto ? Katsuyu's not landing a single hit on him if we consider three boss toad summons were outmaneuvered and incapable of hitting the Deva Path by himself.



Gamabunta isn't above Katsuyu's level, he just has an advantage over her due to move-set. 

Again - I've admitted Itachi has been portrayed far, far above Katsuyu. That doesn't mean he can win in every single scenario. In the manga, he'd find a way to either circumvent her or deal with her. But her having full knowledge and Itachi having to kill her - which he wouldn't have to do to win a fight in the manga - make it very problematic for him here. 



Kai said:


> That's more wishful in perspective. Let's look at the facts though; she doesn't have reactions greater or even on the level of Hachibi. Amaterasu is a tremendous pain in the ass for Katsuyu.



She doesn't need reactions greater or equal to that though. She gets hit. She splits the affected part of her body off - something she can do easily and quickly. It will cause her a lot of pain, but Itachi's going to exhaust himself or severely damage his eyes before he kills her with Amaterasu, given his stamina problems. 



Kai said:


> That was Katsuyu infused with Tsunade's Sozo Saisei jutsu against CST. Itachi can pin down hundreds of smaller slugs with his supreme kunai and shuriken skills like it's target practice. Are you actually starting to forget what he's all about?



How can be pin them down when they can divide apart? The divisions would just split apart at the point they're pinned, and they're free. 



Kai said:


> If Itachi's Katon can even make Samehada, who absorbed all of its chakra, squeal because it was too hot, Katsuyu's smaller slugs are going to get cooked at the center of the fire.



So making Samehada 'squeal' is a feat to roast Katsuyu divisions to death? 



Kai said:


> Exactly like I said FlamingRain, it's not in the manga. And using portrayal to elevate Gamabunta over Katsuyu while ignoring feats but ignoring Itachi's portrayal in the same matter? That is a clear hypocrisy in reasoning.



It is in the manga; it's been portrayed on two occasions now: the Sannin battle and now when Team 7 summoned it was called the '3 way deadlock.' And you can't argue with what the author himself tells us directly in an intereview...

Again, no one is putting Gamabunta over Katsuyu in level. He just has the abilities to beat her. That's the whole point of the deadlock: 3 equal combatants that counter each other. 



Kai said:


> Kishimoto has only referenced and elaborated on the tale in which his characters are based on. In the manga, we have never seen such a power relationship of those three be expressed. We did see, however, Manda taking on Gamabunta and Katsuyu at the same time in the manga.



He's called it the 3 way deadlock twice now, it's in the manga. And he has told us himself, explicitly. You can't argue with it. 

Sure, he took them on briefly. Katsuyu's offense isn't great, so she wasn't much help. The reason Katsuyu > Manda, as I already stated, is because her defense outlasts his offense.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 14, 2013)

Kai said:


> BM Bee substituted after he was hit and Gyuuki remarked how he gave up several tentacles just so they could get away.
> 
> Katsuyu, who does not have the level of reactions as Bee/Gyuuki, is not dividing unharmed, even _after_ she is struck by Amaterasu.



The part of her body hit by Amaterasu will hurt - then she gets rid of said part of body, and then the only things that will hurt are the few divisions on fire. She keeps herself alive through doing this with minimal sacrifice. 




> It was stated Tsunade transferred all of her chakra through Katsuyu — she used Sozo Saisei through Katsuyu to whom she transferred all of her chakra.



I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume it was a mistranslation (much like how Shizune repeatedly refers to Sakura's seal as Hyakugou, or how she calls it the Byakugou seal, when in fact it is just a Yin seal _used_ for Byakugou). She did not use Sozou Saisei on anyone, because it visibly ages them and shortens life span. Her villagers would have been noticeably older looking since they don't have a youth-retaining technique. She released the chakra from her seal and mass healed them, she confirmed this herself _here_. I am under the full impression that this was with regular medical ninjutsu, not regeneration. After all, Tsunade turns into a hag whenever she has no chakra left, its just that using regeneration ages her even more.

There is also the possibility that the ANBU guard was noting that she used all/most of her chakra to pour into Katsuyu _here_, that she had Katsuyu use up all of said chakra during the blast, and that she used Sozou Saisei on _herself_ afterwards, since Katsuyu wasn't protecting her. (which seems equally as plausible). I admit the specifics of what Tsunade did are unclear, but it couldn't possibly be a wide-scale regeneration, because that harms her shinobi just as much; if not more, than it helps them.



> *Katsuyu, who was struck by CST, was also under the influence of Tsunade's Sozo Saisei*. That doesn't mean she has any more durability than the villagers in which Sozo Saisei was used on to protect them from CST.



No, she wasn't. You have presumed this on the basis that Tsunade gave her chakra, when in actuality Katsuyu used said to chakra to heal _others_ not _herself_. 



> We have not seen Katsuyu divide into slugs any smaller than a kunai or shuriken can pin down to the ground. Itachi, as seen in his fight with Sasuke, has access to hundreds of shuriken.



I don't see what you're trying to get at, she doesn't need to to be as small as a shuriken to divide, if a shuriken is thrown at her and tries to slice her/pin her against a rock her clones just _split_ into smaller divisions and Itachi has even more targets to hit, of which can all continue to divide. 



> Who says she was in or on the cloak during the entire time Naruto was transformed?



The manga. She was inside his pocket before he transformed, having came out to warn him of Asura path's abilities, but by the _following page_ she is hidden in his jacket again. She's seen again informing him of Naraka path in the _following chapter_, and then disappears again on the following page. The _again_ in the chapter afterwards etc. This proves that she was continually retreating in and out of Naruto's pocket. When she comes out of Naruto's clothes she takes note of how potent Naruto's chakra cloak was [1] There is literally no argument to suggest was not inside his pocket the entire time.​​


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 14, 2013)

How do you figure that saying "I thought i was a goner" have something to do with Kyuubi's cloack? They are clearly talking about Chibaku Tensei.


----------



## Cord (Jun 14, 2013)

Can someone please explain to me how Amaterasu of that scale (once the flames have already taken time to spread) is not going to be enough to defeat Katsuyu and her divisions? And why the flames just _won't_ and _can't_ pursue even her miniature versions until they are burned to crisp, like it did to Orochimaru's snake?

Furthermore, this is the littlest size the slug can divide herself into. Do we have any other panels showing she can still split into smaller sizes more than she was shown to?


----------



## Bonly (Jun 14, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Can someone please explain to me how Amaterasu of that scale (once the flames have already taken time to spread) is not going to be enough to defeat Katsuyu and her divisions? And why the flames just won't and can't pursue even her miniature versions like it did to Orochimaru's snake?
> 
> Furthermore, this is the littlest size the slug can divide herself into. *Do we have any other panels showing she can still split into smaller sizes more than she was shown to?*



Indeed we have.


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 14, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Indeed we have.



Not that it matters much. The two times we've seen Katsuyu dividing have been with her clones going down (Like the lava of a volcano).

This is enough for Itachi to cast Amaterasu around her to fuck Katsuyu once and for all. After, of course, he had covered most part of her body shooting Amaterasu like a firegun  (i'm serious).


----------



## Cord (Jun 14, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Indeed we have.



Right. I've linked the wrong scan (my bad). Though I wonder if she can still split into even smaller versions than those palm sized ones (the smallest she has shown to). Regardless, I'd still doubt that they can be spared from those flames- no matter how minute they divide into and considering the duration the flames last and burn their target.


----------



## Kai (Jun 14, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> The relationship has been layed out, plain and clear. And as FlamingRain posted, Kishi has told us what it is.


Kishi only elaborated on the tale the Sannin relationship was based on. He didn't say that he gave this relationship of power to the Sannin in the manga nor has that relationship of power ever been expressed in the manga.

We saw Manda fight Gamabunta and Katsuyu at the same time, both of the latter who were fighting on the same side.



			
				Matto-Sama said:
			
		

> Manda cannot actually do significant damage to Katsuyu, as we saw. That's why Katsuyu > Manda. Katsuyu is a defensive summon that relies largely on outlasting her opponent.


Maybe he is, but you'd have to tap into another source of logic to be more credible. Using an interview that is yet to be a hype introduced in the _manga_ is faulty.



			
				Matto-Sama said:
			
		

> Gamabunta isn't above Katsuyu's level, he just has an advantage over her due to move-set.
> 
> Again - I've admitted Itachi has been portrayed far, far above Katsuyu. That doesn't mean he can win in every single scenario. In the manga, he'd find a way to either circumvent her or deal with her. But her having full knowledge and Itachi having to kill her - which he wouldn't have to do to win a fight in the manga - make it very problematic for him here.


Except this is simply not one of those cases you describe. You are simply overestimating Katsuyu if you think she can deal with Amaterasu and Susano'o, and if her smaller units can deal with Itachi's shuriken/kunai skills, Susano'o and its weaponry + physical power. 

If Katsuyu was able to divide herself on a level that the eye couldn't see, this would be a discussion. We have seen Katsuyu split at a sufficient enough size proportion where she can be eradicated by multiple Amaterasu.



			
				Matto-Sama said:
			
		

> She doesn't need reactions greater or equal to that though. She gets hit. She splits the affected part of her body off - something she can do easily and quickly. It will cause her a lot of pain, but Itachi's going to exhaust himself or severely damage his eyes before he kills her with Amaterasu, given his stamina problems.


And as I said before, Bee substituted after he was struck by Amaterasu. Amaterasu if used as the point of visual focus burns almost instantly as we've seen through Jiraiya's Gamaguchi Shibari and on BM Bee.

Katsuyu can split, but her speed to divide into smaller parts is not faster than Amaterasu can _start_ spreading. Amaterasu burns and begins to spread upon contact, so not only does Katsuyu have the necessary reaction speeds as Bee to divide herself, it's pretty obvious by comparison that she will have to sustain noticeable damage in doing so. Just look at the size of the full Katsuyu. You're severely underestimating the size she has to scale down to her singular unit slugs.



			
				Matto-Sama said:
			
		

> How can be pin them down when they can divide apart? The divisions would just split apart at the point they're pinned, and they're free.


He'll just pin hundreds of them down before they can divide no more. As I said before, we have not witnessed Katsuyu able to divide into units smaller than shuriken and kunai can pin down. 



			
				Matto-Sama said:
			
		

> It is in the manga; it's been portrayed on two occasions now: the Sannin battle and now when Team 7 summoned it was called the '3 way deadlock.' And you can't argue with what the author himself tells us directly in an intereview...
> 
> Again, no one is putting Gamabunta over Katsuyu in level. He just has the abilities to beat her. That's the whole point of the deadlock: 3 equal combatants that counter each other.


The fact is Kishimoto has never expressed power comparisons among the three members of the Sannin anywhere in the manga or in the interview. In the interview, he elaborated on the story he based the animals of the Sannin on. He did not state that this was a power structure he placed in the manga, *nor* has the manga displayed such a power structure among the three Sannin.

Speculation of hype isn't sound reasoning to disregard the necessity of feats between comparable powers.



			
				Matto-Sama said:
			
		

> He's called it the 3 way deadlock twice now, it's in the manga. And he has told us himself, explicitly. You can't argue with it.


Bro, how is it a three way deadlock if Jiraiya and Tsunade were fighting on the same side as each other against Orochimaru?



			
				Matto-Sama said:
			
		

> Sure, he took them on briefly. Katsuyu's offense isn't great, so she wasn't much help. The reason Katsuyu > Manda, as I already stated, is because her defense outlasts his offense.


That's fine for you to believe that, but using hype from an interview *that is yet* to be introduced to the manga is fallacious reasoning.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 14, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Can someone please explain to me how Amaterasu of that scale (once the flames have already taken time to spread) is not going to be enough to defeat Katsuyu and her divisions? And why the flames just _won't_ and _can't_ pursue even her miniature versions until they are burned to crisp, like it did to Orochimaru's snake?
> 
> Furthermore, this is the littlest size the slug can divide herself into. Do we have any other panels showing she can still split into smaller sizes more than she was shown to?



Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Amaterasu can only target one person at a time. Granted it can reach huge volumes and set the original Katsuyu ablaze, but that isn't going to kill her. For a start Itachi can only see her from one angle, so it will only be her front that is set on fire. And she will be forced to sacrifice whatever part of her body is hit by dividing, and the divisions that are on fire will eventually die. However, the majority of her divisions remain untouched, so there is no reason why she should die. What one division feels is not what another feels. 

Now if it can only target one person at a time then he has to individually catch each division with Amaterasu. If he can target several divisions at once then they continue to divide, ' shedding ' whatever part of their body is afflicted and moving away. And they can continue to do this until they're palm-sized. Killing all or even _most_ of them with Amaterasu is nigh-on impossible.​​


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## Cord (Jun 14, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Amaterasu can only target one person at a time. Granted it can reach huge volumes and set the original Katsuyu ablaze, but that isn't going to kill her. For a start Itachi can only see her from one angle, so it will only be her front that is set on fire. And she will be forced to sacrifice whatever part of her body is hit by dividing, and the divisions that are on fire will eventually die. However, the majority of her divisions remain untouched, so there is no reason why she should die. What one division feels is not what another feels.
> 
> Now if it can only target one person at a time then he has to individually catch each division with Amaterasu. If he can target several divisions at once then they continue to divide, ' shedding ' whatever part of their body is afflicted and moving away. And they can continue to do this until they're palm-sized. Killing all or even _most_ of them with Amaterasu is nigh-on impossible.​​



Amaterasu ignites on a limited scale and that's only where the user's eyes are focused on, yes. But that's not what I'm addressing. My sentiments are concentrated more on its ability to spread to an even larger scale to the point where it is inescapable and even follow its target if need be (like what I have linked in my previous post) instead of Itachi's ability to cast flames on several targets at a time. Katusyu can divide herself a thousand times but that isn't going to erase the fact that she's Itachi's target. And by target, I mean that's what and where the flames are *set* to hit (once they are already spreading). 

The command over the flames that I'm speaking of, is a concept akin to Itachi's _Tensha Fūin: Amaterasu_ that he implanted on Sasuke's Sharingan and was set to hit a predetermined target which is Tobi. Thus implying that Itachi also has the ability to command the flames about exactly who or what to target whether or not his eyes are directly focused on them. In simpler words, Itachi commands the flames to hit Katsuyu. Katsuyu divides, but she's still Katsuyu no matter how many times she divides. So they would get hit.

Notice how the mini snake (which I would guess was Orochimaru's last ditch of effort to escape) trying to crawl away- yet was still cornered by the flames until it got incinerated? That's exactly what I picture will happen to Katsuyu's divisions. There's no need for Itachi to repeatedly set them ablaze when he can let his flames spread all over the place and command them to inflame a specific target.

Saying Amaterasu is incapable of killing slugs is a complete underestimation of the manga's highest form of Katon ninjutsu, Itachi's most powerful ninjutsu and his control over it. Though, I don't think I'll ever be able to convince you.


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## Kai (Jun 14, 2013)

We have already seen a smaller white snake split off from Yamata no Jutsu and get caught up by the flames of Amaterasu, and Itachi didn't even know about that snake.


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## Krippy (Jun 14, 2013)

The idea of any summon bar V2 Manda giving any high tier any trouble at all is laughable.


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## Jagger (Jun 14, 2013)

She babyshakes Nagato and KM Minato, V2 Manda is nothing.


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## Ersa (Jun 14, 2013)

Now I know why Tsunade didn't summon Katsuyu against Madara.

Manga would've already been over by now, Madara lacks the DC to kill her.

6GT Chibaku Tensei >>> 118MT Perfect Susanoo Slash 

Since Katsuyu was in Naruto's clothes she tanked an island buster.


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## Kai (Jun 14, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> The manga. She was inside his pocket before he transformed, having came out to warn him of Asura path's abilities, but by the _following page_ she is hidden in his jacket again. She's seen again informing him of Naraka path in the _following chapter_, and then disappears again on the following page. The _again_ in the chapter afterwards etc. This proves that she was continually retreating in and out of Naruto's pocket. When she comes out of Naruto's clothes she takes note of how potent Naruto's chakra cloak was [1] There is literally no argument to suggest was not inside his pocket the entire time. [/indent][/justify]


I'm just going to respond to this portion of your post because almost identical points were being made in Matto's posts.

You're basing Katsuyu's durability on the fact she was unharmed in Naruto's pocket? Why would Katsuyu, who was hiding inside Naruto's clothes get hurt if Naruto's clothes themselves weren't even damaged by the kyuubi transformations?



This is not a durability feat of Katsuyu's.


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## Cord (Jun 14, 2013)

> if Naruto's clothes themselves weren't even damaged by the kyuubi



It kind of stems from the idea (from what I have read so far) that _"the mangaka can't draw his protagonist naked in a fight"_. Hence his clothes can't be unharmed/ damaged/ stripped.

But the problem with that notion is that if we are to go by the manga logic, then that should account for the clothes' durability as well and not just Katsuyu's.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 14, 2013)

The cloak is also Naruto's skin itself, though- which Katsuyu, being on his shoulder in his jacket, would be in direct contact with.

If KN8 doesn't even corrode clothes then Orochimaru's snakes are less durable than fabric since they evaporated upon contact with a lesser version of the shroud.

Kishi can burn a chunk of a slug, he can't make Naruto fight with no clothes. We can't throw it out because the clothes survived, otherwise the shroud isn't corrosive at all and that. . .goes against what we've seen of it when things come into contact with Naruto.


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## Kai (Jun 14, 2013)

Kishi has drawn Naruto fighting with damaged clothes and training shirtless numerous times before. There's nothing against that, and there's no separation of logic here. Katsuyu was protected under the same reasoning that Naruto's clothes were, whether it be by Kishi's will or the clothes are resistant to the cloak (Katsuyu, who was hiding _within_ Naruto's clothes will thus naturally be protected). This is not a valid case of Katsuyu's durability.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 14, 2013)

the mini slug was there to represent katsyuu intellect telepathicaly, i.e it was not a physical representation of katsyuu/no place for her to gain ''feats''.
(nvrmnd the fact theres no panel ofte slug ''tanking'' or dealing w/ heat)


it was not the point. the point was to link between the hinata/crater scene w/ the tendo vs nardo scene~ so if the slug evaporated, this particular part of the literature couldnt have worked!

so the plot ignored the mini slug would-be vaporizing just like it ignoires nardos clothes or his smokebomb he used a few pages later or even bees pen & pad as another poster already noted...

...so then it was overlooked for ''continuity'' reason.


.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 14, 2013)

Kai said:


> Kishi has drawn Naruto fighting with damaged clothes and training shirtless numerous times before. There's nothing against that, and there's no separation of logic here. Katsuyu was protected under the same reasoning that Naruto's clothes were, whether it be by Kishi's will or the clothes are resistant to the cloak (Katsuyu, who was hiding _within_ Naruto's clothes will thus naturally be protected).



Partially damaging Naruto's clothes because of something that engulfs his entire body is one reason against it- it would make no sense.

She wasn't protected by his clothes either because the cloak forms both over _and_ under his clothing (it radiates from his skin after all), meaning that she would be exposed to it whether she was on top of his sleeve or on the bottom of it.

Clothes stay intact to avoid nudity- that's why FRS can disintegrate Human Realm but not Raikage's pants, because no nude character would be left behind. It's why Tsunade and Ay's entire bodies can be sent to the battlefield at a speed that rips things apart and yet not leave them completely naked. It's the same reason Mei's mist didn't burn off Sasuke's clothes despite burning Sasuke. As well as the reason Gai's Asakujaku didn't leave the body used for Shoten Kisame naked even though it can evaporate tidal waves.

This is still the same cloak that vaporized a large snake upon contact just as quickly as Amaterasu while in a lesser form- Kishimoto has aesthetic reasons to keep Naruto's clothes intact, reasons absent when concerning Katsuyu's division.

Not that this means she'll tank Amaterasu anyway, but still- the feat is there.


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## αce (Jun 14, 2013)

I'm just going to go ahead and say that over thinking why Katsuya survived under Naruto's clothing, when Naruto's clothing itself was unharmed is stretching things further then they need to be. Based on this logic, the book that was in Naruto's clothing the entire time has comparable durability to Katsuya.

Some things just aren't worth analyzing.


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## Cord (Jun 14, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Kishi can burn a chunk of a slug, he can't make Naruto fight with no clothes. We can't throw it out because the clothes survived,



If that's the case, then Kishimoto himself just blatantly admitted that he's inconsistent as fuck when we have seen that he can draw Naruto wearing just half of his clothes back then. Even his opponent, as shown above. I support Kai's idea. There shouldn't be any separation of logic here. If the clothes were conveniently not  taken away, then so was Katsuyu who actually played an important part as Naruto's intel.

*Edit:* Also, what ace said about Jiraiya's book.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 14, 2013)

I cannot recall Katsuyu giving Naruto intel after he transformed back.


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## Cord (Jun 14, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I cannot recall Katsuyu giving Naruto intel after he transformed back.




middle left panel.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 14, 2013)

αce said:


> I'm just going to go ahead and say that over thinking why Katsuya survived under Naruto's clothing, when Naruto's clothing itself was unharmed is stretching things further then they need to be. Based on this logic, the book that was in Naruto's clothing the entire time has comparable durability to Katsuya.
> 
> Some things just aren't worth analyzing.



the problem then is if readers r seeing the slug proxy as more than clothing
(as if the tiny slug was there to physically protect something/act independently or declaratively)

if youre doing so, then uve already stretched the literature beyond where it was intented & others would be then ''stretching things further'' to illustrate your folly
( I dont think U did this too)


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## FlamingRain (Jun 14, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> middle left panel.



Damnit Kishi.


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## LostSelf (Jun 15, 2013)

I'm seeing that people supporting Katsuyu (most of them) are saying that FEATS only, Katsuyu beats Itachi but then jump into the shonen jump manga and Naruto needing to have clothes and such. Not a bad argument, but double standard all the way.

FEATS only Katsuyu has the same durability as Naruto's clothes, Necklace and boxers .


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## FlamingRain (Jun 15, 2013)

I hope that isn't directed at me when I'm not saying Katsuyu beats Itachi.


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## LostSelf (Jun 15, 2013)

Of course not. That's why i said (Most of them). If i were to directly talk to you i would decently quote you to engage in another loooong debate .


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## FlamingRain (Jun 15, 2013)

Okay. . .I was just suspicious since that came right after my post.


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## LostSelf (Jun 15, 2013)

I was just reading some old posts in this thread saying that Katsuyu beats Itachi featwise and saying that she tanked Kyuubi's corrosive cloack because NAruto should have clothes since this is not hentai (Not that way exactly, lol). But you get the point. 

I wouldn't talk like that to a friend either. i would directly handle things  (Forgive my english).


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## Prince Scarlet (Jun 17, 2013)

Katsuyu is one of the most durable summons ( if not the most durable ), thus only the msot destructive attack can kill her. 
Only the Kiirabi stops her.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 17, 2013)

Prince Scarlet said:


> Katsuyu is one of the most durable summons ( if not the most durable ), thus only the msot destructive attack can kill her.
> Only the Kiirabi stops her.



nah, manda has the beast durability feat, being intact after C0 & the gama trio were still conscious after being attacked w/ a ''boss level'' ST.

the slug comes in 3rd place by actual feats, tho katsyuu is good at -_avoiding_- trauma via division. 
But versatility =/= durability


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## Prince Scarlet (Jun 17, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> nah, manda has the beast durability feat, being intact after C0 & the gama trio were still conscious after being attacked w/ a ''boss level'' ST.
> 
> the slug comes in 3rd place by actual feats, tho katsyuu is good at -_avoiding_- trauma via division.
> But versatility =/= durability



_Katsuyu tanked Pain's Cho Sinra Tensei, which was strong enough to destroy a whole village. She also tanked the corrosive chakra of the Kyuubi. That's a better durability feat tham Manda dying from the C0. _


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