# Summit Sasuke Gauntlet



## Rocky (May 20, 2015)

*Location:* Taka vs. B
*Distance:* 10 meters
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Mindset:* IC

Sasuke's highest stage of Susano'o is the rib cage, and he gets healed after each fight (not a gauntlet I know, but I didn't feel like making 20 threads ).


vs. Tsunade

vs. Mei

vs. Onoki

vs. Gaara

vs. Jiraiya

vs. B (who now has _Intent to Kill_ instead of _Intent to Fuck Around_)

vs. Hebi Sasuke 

Bonus: It's an actual gauntlet and he isn't healed in between fights.


----------



## Veracity (May 20, 2015)

Tsuande:
He does pretty good against Tsuande by virtue of amaterasu. Though if Tsunade has 2.5 years of chakra saved up, she could probably fight with amaterasu clinging to her body for awhile. If he gets in CQC with Sasuke he's dead meat. With manga knowledge, Sasuke should play it safe and just spam Amateasu while basically running away. But if he does CQC like he usually does( against Itachi, Bee, Raikage, Deidara + Tobi, Sage Madara, Riduko Naruto... When has Sasuke ever started with long range ?) then he could potentially be killed.

Mei:
He should beat Mei pretty solidly even if his Chaka is running down. She can't dodge AMA, and she has no real defense to it.

Onnoki:
Sasuke wins most of the time. He can physically evade Jinton, and he can win pretty easy via Amateasu shots. Amateasu is a hard counter against most kage in a long battle.

Gaara: 
Gaara actually might be able to win if Sasukes chakra is running low. With Manga knowledge, he should already have his sand defense prepped Around his body, and with sand clones + flight, he should be able to overwhelm an already tired Sasuke. 

Jirayia:
Would steamroll Sasuke at this point . If Sasukes manages to get past Gaara, he's going to be very low on chakra, gets taken out by a Yomi Nomi + Bunta amped Katon.

Killer Bee:
KB steamrolls Sasuke fresh or not. The only reason he didn't destroy him the first time was because he was dicking around and using the wrong abilities. With manga knowledge, he goes BM and spams BD. Sasuke gets obliterated, and killed bee subs if he's hit with AMA.

Hebi Sasuke;
Why is he at the bottom ? MS Sasuke is outright superior to this Sasuke anyway. He outright bliztes with amaterasu or completely overwhelms in CQC with sussano. Kirin never comes out.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 20, 2015)

He goes for a sword blitz at Tsunade and dies.  He needs to use particular tactics against Tsunade, and he needs the knowledge to do so before the fight starts, because he's not using them before he dies with his IC tendencies.  She also needs to not have Byako.  I favor Tsunade.

He might kill Mei at 10 meters, if he isn't pushed back by lava, or runs through acid, or get blasted away by water.  It depends on her reactions, and Sasuke's choice of attack.  I favor Sasuke in this match up.

Onoki atomizes him, or gets blitzed.  Onoki probably doesn't get blitzed by the jr speedster clubber.  I favor Onoki.

It depends on if Sasuke can get through Gaara's defences.  Traditionally Eiso is a good counter.  But Ameterasu and Susano aren't going to do anything but get Sasuke killed.  I'm not sure how I rate Gaara's defence vs Sasuke's offence, currently.  Gaara got some mad crazy hype in the last arcs.

Jiraiya is disadvantaged at this distance, but I don't think he's getting straight blitzed.  This comes down to Jiraiya's choice of reaction.  Hair defences aren't good here, and can get him hurt or killed.

Bee wrecks him.  The only way Sasuke wins is if he runs away and lands Ameterasu.  But the last time Sasuke used Ameterasu, Bee substituted out of it, proving Academy jutsu are the most broken of all.  So depending, even that might now work.

Hebi Sasuke kills his stupider and more suicidal self.  Hebi's faster as well, and holds an edge in all shared jutsu because of juin.  Hebi also has greater stamina and durability, and oral rebirth, so any time Sasuke's out of ribcage (which deteriorates his eyes and pains every cell in his body to sustain) he can afford to trade blows, and spit out a new body.  Taka only spits out blood.  Taka didn't surpass Hebi until the point where he fought Danzo, and that one fight with Danzo left him blind and useless before he took his brother's eyes.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 20, 2015)

> With manga knowledge, Sasuke should play it safe and just spam Amateasu while basically running away. But if he does CQC like he usually does( against Itachi, Bee, Raikage, Deidara + Tobi, Sage Madara, Riduko Naruto... When has Sasuke ever started with long range ?) then he could potentially be killed.



Sasuke actually doesn't have any knowledge on Tsunade.  He hasn't even been in the same room with her since she took him out of a coma.  Taka doesn't even know Sakura was her student, and if he did he'd probably assume he could walk up and


----------



## Rocky (May 20, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Taka didn't surpass Hebi until the point where he fought Danzo, and that one fight with Danzo left him blind and useless before he took his brother's eyes.



Sasuke needs a muscled Susnao'o to defeat his Hebi Self, PoW? 

Susano'o was apparently rare among even those who were actually able to awaken the Mangekyou. I don't think Hebi Sasuke was strong enough to require the full might of Susano'o.

By feats, Summit Sasuke rolls Hebi Sauce with Kagutsuchi and calls it a day. By portrayal I think Sasuke surpassed his Hebi self as soon as he awakened the Mangekyou, and if not there then when he fought A.


----------



## Ghost (May 20, 2015)

One shot kills all of them immediately until he faces Bee which he loses against eventually. Kills Hebi with Kagutsuchi.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 20, 2015)

- Defeats Tsunade low - mid dif, oneshots with Amaterasu and uses Susano'o to defend himself when he can't dodge.

- Defeats Mei Low-mid dif. Mei can spit out some shit, they get dodged and tanked with Susano'o and then she gets OHKO'd with Amaterasu

- Actually Onoki has no defense against Amaterasu, so he can go down to it pretty fast. Though Sasuke won't use it off the bat and probably the old man will be able to take some counter measures or just dust Sasuke before it becomes a real threat. Leaning towards Onoki

- Sasuke should be able to defeat Gaara with mid - high dif. Gaara was able to stop enton with his sand, so Sasuke needs a clear shot of Amaterasu. He can avoid Gaara's sand with foot speed and raitons, and deliver the finishing blow.

- Unless Jiraiya starts in SM, Sasuke finishes this pretty quickly. He can summon snakes or hawks if Jiraiya summons Bunta and close the distance instantly and hit him with a genjutsu or Amaterasu. The genjutsu he used on Danzo is good enough to give him an oppening against Jiraiya.  Low - mid dif for Sasuke.

- B defeats Sasuke high dif. Amaterasu gets trolled with Bijuu cloak and/or kawarimi and as much as Sasuke can keep up with tailed forms with ribcage Susano'o, he'll be overwhelmed when B goes V2 or full bijuu form.

- Summit Sasuke defeats Hebi Sasuke with mid  - high dif. Hebi Sasuke should be able to avoid Amaterasu with oral rebirth a couple of times, and he has some ranged techniques that can be used to pressure Sasuke into using Enton and ribcage Susano'o, but eventually goes down. 


- If this is a gauntlet, I can see him going up to Gaara, with the assumption that he succesfully defeats Onoki(though I favor Onoki here).


----------



## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> *Location:* Taka vs. B
> *Distance:* 10 meters
> *Knowledge:* Manga
> *Mindset:* IC
> ...



he beats tsunade and mei via amaterasu. If he has knowledge. however no knowledge on tsunade ability to heal means she kills him the second he engages her in cqc. if its a gauntlet he ends right there. 

with knowledge though he uses amaterasu off the bat and should win when her chakra runs out. Mei would always loose to sasuke.

looses to onoki before amaterasu ever comes into play. onoki is a jinton first ask question later type of guy. kage summit sasuke doesn't use amaterasu in that fashion

looses to gaara 

looses to jiriaya. manga knowledge again hurts him here as he wont feel the need to use amaterasu off the bat which makes a win unlikely

bee baby shakes

Ms sasuke murders his weaker hebi version

he stops at Mei. he would have run out of steam after tsunade fight


----------



## Sadgoob (May 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke needs a muscled Susnao'o to defeat his Hebi Self, PoW?



Pre-muscle Susano'o Sasuke defeats Hebi Sasuke, but I think Hebi Sasuke is overall stronger, largely because Summit Sasuke was mentally impaired (which we learned was due to MS awakening.)​


----------



## Rocky (May 20, 2015)

Again with that. 

I don't understand how he was mentally impaired or know where we learned that he was mentally impaired. 

His blood lust for Itachi was replaced by a blood lust for Konoha.

Sasuke is just like Deidara; an arrogant prick with a tactical mind, and this did not change when he grew wings and learned how to fly.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Again with that.
> 
> I don't understand how he was mentally impaired or know where we learned that he was mentally impaired.
> 
> ...



The difference is that his bloodlust for Itachi was calculating. He waited until Orochimaru was at his weakest to absorb him, and assembled a team to deal with Itachi's Akatsuki partner.

He also went up against Itachi with a game plan against all the jutsu he knew about, from Amaterasu all the way down to drawing summoning  on his wrist to deal with Itachi's weapon speed. 

In contrast, Taka Sasuke paid no mind to the odds of success, or preparation or knowledge or plans against his enemy. He charged into the Kage Summit to fight an army of Kages and Jonin at once.

Against Itachi, Hebi Sasuke's hatred was focused like a laser. He was patient, he was relatively cautious, and he approached the goal as wisely as possible. Against Konoha, he was just berserk.​


----------



## Rocky (May 20, 2015)

I guess you're right about the way Sasuke handled himself in fights he knew he was going into. I didn't notice much of a difference between how he conducted himself in random encounters though.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; herpa derp-flicker-sword swing was a not-so-good idea against two Akatsuki members. Same thing with team seven.


----------



## Alucardemi (May 20, 2015)

Could be an effect of this. Sasuke's brain was saturated with hatred chakra, making him alot looser of a cannon.

That said, its not as clear as you'd think, because Sasuke's display against Danzo was nothing short of planned and strategized.


----------



## StickaStick (May 20, 2015)

Sasuke literally taking head-on two Ataksuki members at once was one of the silliest things anyone has done in the manga. If Obito had had other intentions Sasuke would have been one-paneled immediately. Not even charging the Kage Summit (w/help) has shit on that.


----------



## Dr. Leonard Church (May 20, 2015)

_IC _Sasuke tends to blitz first, Mangekyo later. He charges forward. He promptly gets whacked by the probably-lethal jutsu of the week.

Hell, the only one I don't see him losing to in this situation is _himself_.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I guess you're right about the way Sasuke handled himself in fights he knew he was going into. I didn't notice much of a difference between how he conducted himself in random encounters though.
> 
> I've said it before, and I'll say it again; herpa derp-flicker-sword swing was a not-so-good idea against two Akatsuki members. Same thing with team seven.



When you think about it, "herpa derp-flicker-sword swing" isn't a bad strategy for him, considering he's faster than nearly all ninja, and his sword has the capacity to slice through steel like butter.

He nearly killed Deidara early on if not for Obito's warning, which would have saved him a _lot_ of trouble. Against other ninja with 4.5 speed (Jiraiya) it'd save him trouble. His gambit plays the odds.

The "herpa lerpa" element comes in when he _keeps trying it_ even when apparently physically outmatched (A and Bee.) As Hebi Sasuke, we saw that _he fell back_ and pursued ninjutsu. 

This flows with him being a brain-damaged berserker. There's satisfaction in getting up close and personal, and MS Sasuke couldn't get enough of it. Hebi Sasuke was detached, and methodical.​


----------



## Turrin (May 21, 2015)

vs. Tsunade - Honestly the match likely ends here:
disease

Sasuke goes for a Chidori or Ksunagi sword strike. The strike gets tanked by Byakugo and he gets one-shotted by Tsunade's strength, that unlike Ei's won't be stopped by Rib-Cage Susano'o.

vs. Mei - Mei can use Demonic Mist to shut down Sharingan and just fill the area with Acid Mist. Eventually Sasuke will ether fall to the Acid or be forced to create distance between himself and Mei at which point he gets overwhelmed by Mei's suitons.

vs. Onoki - Jinton GG


vs. Gaara - Has no way to get around Gaara's ultimate defense and will eventually be overwhelmed as Gaara gathers more sand.

vs. Jiraiya - Jiraiya reaches SM and than stomps

vs. B (who now has Intent to Kill instead of Intent to Fuck Around) - B stomps in V1, as the Chakra Shroud just pushes off Amaterasu

vs. Hebi Sasuke - This would be a close fight. Hebi-Sasuke certainly has the edge outside of MS, but Rib-Cage Susano'o and Enton should give Sasuke the edge, but Hebi-Sasuke could hang on until he preps Kirin with Oral Rebirth and such and than win with Kirin. It would be tough for Hebi-Sasuke, but I could see him winning, even though I do think overall MS-Sasuke was a bit stronger at that point.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke needs a muscled Susnao'o to defeat his Hebi Self, PoW?
> 
> Susano'o was apparently rare among even those who were actually able to awaken the Mangekyou. I don't think Hebi Sasuke was strong enough to require the full might of Susano'o.
> 
> By feats, Summit Sasuke rolls Hebi Sauce with Kagutsuchi and calls it a day. By portrayal I think Sasuke surpassed his Hebi self as soon as he awakened the Mangekyou, and if not there then when he fought A.



What Sasuke initially got with MS was more power and lethality in exchange for a loss in durability, regeneration, speed, overall ability to boost stats and jutsu, and sanity.  

The MS only allows him to beat a couple of opponents he couldn't before, such as Tsunade and Ei, because Hebi's lethality is already good enough for most of the ninja world, and defence, vitality, and durability were the weak points of Uchiha.

See Strategos:



> In contrast, Taka Sasuke paid no mind to the odds of success, or preparation or knowledge or plans against his enemy. He charged into the Kage Summit to fight an army of Kages and Jonin at once.
> 
> Against Itachi, Hebi Sasuke's hatred was focused like a laser. He was patient, he was relatively cautious, and he approached the goal as wisely as possible. Against Konoha, he was just berserk.
> 
> ...



The reason I say vs Danzo Hebi wins, is that at that point he's starting to use some tactics again, and he's also using MS first in a very spammy way, right away.  That cuts out all the normal battling that Hebi beats and kills him in, and that's also the first battle where Sasuke didn't destroy and exhaust himself after a short conflict. At that point his tactics become viable, and that's matched by Danzo being the only opponent he beat.  Not that he needs the upgraded Susano in particular.  

Ultimately, the path of MS is a power that exceeds Orochimaru _in potential_, but it doesn't surpass it immediately, and raw power doesn't give you the excuse to be reckless and not get punished.  Sasuke would have died as early as the flashbang if he didn't have friends.


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The "herpa lerpa" element comes in when he _keeps trying it_ even when apparently physically outmatched (A and Bee.) As Hebi Sasuke, we saw that _he fell back_ and pursued ninjutsu.​



Sasuke bum rushed Deidara until the latter flew away (which would have gotten him killed had Obito used his true power), and he got into a shuriken duel with Itachi which ended with Itachi blitzing and forcing eye contact (which would have ended the fight had Itachi used his true power).

I know that Sasuke started fighting with the Mangekyou after a brief close quarters exchange with A, and against B didn't he use genjutsu & Amaterasu after he lost the initial sword fight?

MS Sasuke was more, eh, evil...and his chakra was more sinister, but I don't see Hebi Sasuke approaching the A/B fights any differently. He's always been one to fight up close and personal, at least at the onset.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 21, 2015)

If Hebi got outclassed in swordsmanship, he probably wouldn't have gone for rounds 2 and 3 in swordsmanship.

Hebi probably wouldn't have tried chidori after a chidori-kusunagi bounced of Ei's bulging neck veins.  Sure, chidori has better piercing, but is it really so much better than his unstoppable sword that he though it could go from zero to heart stab?


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke bum rushed Deidara until the latter flew away (which would have gotten him killed had Obito used his true power), and he got into a shuriken duel with Itachi which ended with Itachi blitzing and forcing eye contact (which would have ended the fight had Itachi used his true power).



So he'd lose to Obito and Itachi's true power. Yeah. Most people would. My point still stands, no?​


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Taka Sasuke didn't even do that, PoW. He tried Chidorigatana after getting worked initially, and lightning swords beat regular swords. 

B just had a lightning sword too.



Strategoob said:


> So he'd lose to Obito and Itachi's true power. Yeah. Most people would. My point still stands, no?​



No, because Sasuke would have still lost to both A and B _even had he approached the fight differently. _

You're just saying that he shouldn't have stayed in close combat with those two because they're so good there, but he didn't stay for any longer than he stayed against Obito & Deidara or Itachi.


----------



## Turrin (May 21, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If Hebi got outclassed in swordsmanship, he probably wouldn't have gone for rounds 2 and 3 in swordsmanship.
> 
> Hebi probably wouldn't have tried chidori after a chidori-kusunagi bounced of Ei's bulging neck veins.  Sure, chidori has better piercing, but is it really so much better than his unstoppable sword that he though it could go from zero to heart stab?



Yeah it's a-lot better POW. Do you think Raiton-Flow Ksunagi comes anywhere close to clashing evenly with Rasengan? Raiton-Flow Ksunagi was pushed back by fucking a small wood block from Yamata for fuck sake.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No, because Sasuke would have still lost to both A and B _even had he approached the fight differently. _



Perhaps. If he used hide and seek tactics, summons, Kirin, etc. he'd at least have a noble defeat. I personally think he'd beat A after seeing and rebirthing from the Raikage's one and only trick.​


Rocky said:


> You're just saying that he shouldn't have stayed in close combat with those two because they're so good there, but he didn't stay for any longer than he stayed against Obito & Deidara or Itachi.



Only Itachi demonstrated comparable close range skill to tip Sasuke off away from the blitz gambit, and he then put moderate distance between them to use shuriken. Would've been wise against Bee.​


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Perhaps. If he used hide and seek tactics, summons, Kirin, etc. he'd at least have a noble defeat. I personally think he'd beat A after seeing and rebirthing from the Raikage's one and only trick.​



Liger Bomb would just kill him on impact since it would, like, snap him in half. If Sasuke was somehow still alive, Raikage would _see_ him spit out the new body and just kill it. Oral Rebirth is overrated, especially so given how costly & taxing it is.

As for the hiding stuff, I could see it happening in a scenario where Sasuke had full knowledge, a 100-meter starting distance, and a forest-like battleground to work with. The scenario in canon? Hebi Sasuke would have been _mauled_ because he has no answer to A's Raiton Body Flicker & Nintaijutsu.



> Only Itachi demonstrated comparable close range skill to tip Sasuke off away from the blitz gambit, and he then put moderate distance between them to use shuriken. Would've been wise against Bee.​



Sasuke swung clean through Obito, and Obito stood up and cracked a joke.

That would be a red flag to back off imo..


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Liger Bomb would just kill him on impact since it would, like, snap him in half.



Um, no, it definitely would not. Even in part one, CS2 Sasuke was getting slammed into cliffs with enough force to create large craters, and he wasn't injured at all. The Liger Bomb isn't doing shit.​


Rocky said:


> If Sasuke was somehow still alive, Raikage would see him spit out the new body and just kill it. Oral Rebirth is overrated, especially so given how costly & taxing it is.



You know what's overrated? A's shunshin jutsu that consumes tailed-beast amounts of chakra for seconds of speed. And Hebi Sasuke used Oral Rebirth in such a way that Itachi did not see it.​


Rocky said:


> Sasuke swung clean through Obito, and Obito stood up and cracked a joke. That would be a red flag to back off imo..



I don't recall Hebi Sasuke going back to swing at Obito after that point. He focused on Deidara and incidentally put more space between him and Obito.​


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Um, no, it definitely would not. Even in part one, CS2 Sasuke was getting slammed into cliffs with enough force to create large craters, and he wasn't injured at all. The Liger Bomb isn't doing shit.​



I think you just equated getting punched into a cliff by preskip Naruto to being powerbombed into the ground by RCM Raikage. Logical power scaling is a thing, or at least it should be.

Oh, and A punched a hole through Curse Seal Jugo, and then knocked him out with one elbow. Jugo's demonstrated better body strength feats than CS Sasuke, so imo there's more evidence for Sasuke dying or at least being knocked out than there is to him being more durable than Susano'o and no-selling it. 



> You know what's overrated? A's shunshin jutsu that consumes tailed-beast amounts of chakra for seconds of speed.​



A's Shunshin does not consume tailed beast amounts of chakra. 

How much stamina do you think this guy has? The Biju levels of chakra are gathered for the intention of spamming the Body Flicker. Expending an entire Biju's worth in one go would put Raikage on a separate stamina tier than the Biju themselves, because it doesn't completely drain him to use Shunshin. Quite the contrary actually, as he's never shown signs of fatigue after using it. 



> And Hebi Sasuke used Oral Rebirth in such a way that Itachi did not see it.



1.) Itachi was blind.

2.) Itachi probably expected it given the _"he planned everything about that fight for you"_ thing Tobito was saying.

3.) Sasuke was on a roof and used it to seep into the floor after Itachi has submerged him in black flames from a distance. Hopefully you see why this is different than Sasuke attempting to spit out a new body while A is holding on to him. 



> I don't recall Hebi Sasuke going back to swing at Obito after that point. He focused on Deidara and incidentally put more space between him and Obito.​



Didn't he ignore Obito?


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I think you just equated getting punched into a cliff by preskip Naruto to being powerbombed into the ground by RCM Raikage. Logical power scaling is a thing, or at least it should be.



Crater-making strength is crater-making strength regardless of level. Pre-skip Jirobo and Butterfly Choji are a much lower level then Tsunade, but are nearly as physically strong. 

CS2 Sasuke showed that he could easily endure crater-making slams, like the Liger Bomb. Just because A can blitz, say, Butterfly Choji (or Tsunade) doesn't automatically make his slams stronger.​


Rocky said:


> Oh, and A punched a hole through Curse Seal Jugo, and then knocked him out with one elbow.



Don't equate CS2 Jugo to CS2 Hebi Sasuke. The latter is on a completely different reflexive level. But Jugo surviving a Chidori punch through the chest is a good example of CS2 resilience.​


Rocky said:


> A's Shunshin does not consume tailed beast amounts of chakra. How much stamina do you think this guy has? The Biju levels of chakra are gathered for the intention of spamming the Body Flicker.



That's not how jutsu work, as explained to Naruto in part one. Excess chakra built up and not used on the upcoming jutsu is _wasted_. He can't spam v2 shunshin due to its cost.​


Rocky said:


> Quite the contrary actually, as he's never shown signs of fatigue after using it.



He also didn't blink _when he cut off his own arm_. It doesn't mean it didn't hurt. He's just a fucking G. He's likely tired after dumping a tailed beat amount of chakra, but doesn't show it.​


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Crater-making strength is crater-making strength. Jugo and pre-skip Jirobo/Choji are capable as well. CS2 Sasuke would endure crater-making slams from them too (just like base Bee could.)​



I should just respond with _"logical power scaling is a thing"_ again, shouldn't I?

But alas. Susano'o > Curse Seal. Liger Bomb broke Susano'o. Liger Bomb _crushes_ Curse Seal Sasuke.



> Don't equate CS2 Jugo to CS2 Hebi Sasuke. The latter is on a completely different reflexive level. But Jugo surviving a Chidori punch through the chest is a good example of CS2 resilience..



I'm talking about durability, and A dealt with Jugo's durability with two _punches._ A's punches are crater-making, and his Liger Bomb is supposed to be on a level above that. 

Sasuke's faster than Jugo, but I doubt he's all that much more durable (if at all) that A would be incapable of swiftly dealing with him. The Sharingan could help Sasuke evade's v1 A linear taijutsu, but Sasuke can't do anything up close anyway, and A can up it to v2 and rape whenever he pleases. 



> Oh, did Jugo endure enormous explosions somewhere?​



He's never faced them, but I'd say he has a decent chance to do so given that he punches massive craters in the ground. He's a physical beast.

CS2 Sasuke was held down by Itachi.  Granted that was in Tsukuyomi, but Itachi making himself physically stronger than normal isn't something that I believe would happen without being commented on.

Let's face it, the Curse Seal is a comparable boost to one tail of Kyubi chakra, and _KCM Naruto_ was marveling at A's power.



> > He also didn't flinch when he cut off his own arm. It doesn't mean it didn't hurt. He's just a fucking G. He's tired, but doesn't show it.​



So let me get this straight. A used various nintaijutsu techniques prior to v2, expended a _Biju's_ worth of chakra dodging Amaterasu, used more nintaijutsu, and then....told C to stop the bleeding so he could resume "kicking Sasuke's ass?"

Against Madara, he used multiple v2 flickers, so he's using up chakra amounts equaling that of multiple Biju?



This sounds utterly ridiculous and I can't get behind it. Ebisu's explanation was a rough one by his own admission, and it obviously isn't the case with all techniques as then there couldn't be jutsu like Susano'o or Raiton Chakra Mode. 

Also, notice how he didn't have to stand still for a while against Minato, Madara, or Naruto. That's likely because he assumed he didn't need v2 for any longer than one blitz because he assumed that he'd actually succeed and hitting his opponent. Against Sasuke, he was going on the _defense_ against Amaterasu.

He gathered up that much chakra in order to maintain v2 for an_ extended period of time_ for the purpose of spamming the body flicker in it. That makes the most sense _by far._


----------



## Icegaze (May 21, 2015)

I have no idea why people claim hebi fought smarter than MS sasuke

the only time hebi fought smart was against itachi. who btw is the only character he has fought who he had almost full knowledge on 

everyone else and I mean everyone else since part 2 he uses shunshin and gets in close for cqc. its at this point he laughably dies against tsunade


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> But alas. Susano'o > Curse Seal. Liger Bomb broke Susano'o. Liger Bomb _crushes_ Curse Seal Sasuke.



The Liger Bomb broke rib-cage Susano'o? Where? Moreover, the CS2 state is _much_ better than rib-cage Susnao'o. Imagine CS2 Itachi or CS2 Madara. It's a pseudo-Sage state, enhancing everything.​


Rocky said:


> He's never faced them, but I'd say



So then CS2 Sasuke has the best durability _feats_. I personally consider their resilience to be equivalent, but with Sasuke being far faster and more reflexive (base Sasuke blitzed CS1 Jugo.)​


Rocky said:


> CS2 Sasuke was held down by Itachi. Granted that was in Tsukuyomi, but Itachi making himself physically stronger than normal isn't something that I believe would happen without being commented on.



Itachi and base Sasuke were even-ish. They seemed equal. My interpretation of that Tsukuyomi is that speed and strength is what Itachi was capable of before his body was eaten away by sickness.​


Rocky said:


> Let's face it, the Curse Seal is a comparable boost to one tail of Kyubi chakra, and _KCM Naruto_ was marveling at A's power.



Let's face it. The KN1 boost is impressive.​


Rocky said:


> So let me get this straight. A used various nintaijutsu techniques prior to v2, expended a _Biju's_ worth of chakra dodging Amaterasu, used more nintaijutsu, and then....told C to stop the bleeding so he could resume "kicking Sasuke's ass?"



Why is that unbelievable to you?​


Rocky said:


> Against Madara, he used multiple v2 flickers, so he's using up chakra amounts equaling that of multiple Biju?



I don't think he did. Moreover, like with Tsukuyomi varying in exhaustiveness by time manipulation (72 hours versus 24 hours,) his "v2" flickers vary in strength by the chakra put into them.

For all we know, he did not put the same enormous amount of chakra that freaked out Karin into his every shunshin against Madara. You're just assuming he did.​


Rocky said:


> This sounds utterly ridiculous and I can't get behind it. Ebisu's explanation was a rough one by his own admission, and it obviously isn't the case with all techniques as then there couldn't be jutsu like Susano'o or Raiton Chakra Mode.



Funny. The Raikage building up a tailed beast "cloud" of chakra and then maintaining that with hypersonic movement sounds ridiculous to me. Even without Ebisu telling us that's not how it works.​


Rocky said:


> He gathered up that much chakra in order to maintain v2 for an_ extended period of time_ for the purpose of spamming the body flicker in it. That makes the most sense _by far._



Only if you don't read carefully. "v2" is not a thing. It's a fan-made term describing the singular instance in the manga where A was stated to build up a tailed beast amount of chakra for a shunshin.

Which then devolved into "hair-lifting" shunshin, which isn't an exact science. You're right though: A does not have the chakra of multiple bijuu. Meaning he can't use the shunshin used on Sasuke often.​


----------



## Icegaze (May 21, 2015)

cs2 is stronger than rib cage susanoo
so I take it hebi sasuke can block tsunade punch with cs2

oh wait no u cant mean that since cs2 jugo clearly the best cs2 user got a hole in him from A punch which is <<<<<<tsunade punch 

wanna know what blocked tsunade punch and saved sasuke from A karate chop?
rib cage susanoo 

please everything about MS sasuke>hebi sasuke


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> oh wait no u cant mean that since cs2 jugo clearly the best cs2 user got a hole in him from A punch which is <<<<<<tsunade punch





A's punch has the raiton piercing element.

Hence why he pierced the rib-cage and Tsunade did not.



Icegaze said:


> wanna know what blocked tsunade punch



White Snake powers are sufficient. 

CS2 is the cherry.


----------



## Icegaze (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> A's punch has the raiton piercing element.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



are u comparing orochimaru healing abilities to sasuke ? 

also that punch orochimaru tanked was weak. she hadn't even released byakuyo. tsunade holding back isn't going to be much stronger than A. so orochimaru getting up isn't surprising. though I hav no idea what that has to do with sasuke

who could only use oral rebirth once and had no ability to reattach himself like orochimaru. you are desperately reaching

this A punch having piercing element mind showing me where it says so in the manga or DB 

cuz all his RCM does is boost his speed and power. that chop in the scan is a simple karate chop. it crushed the susanoo but not completely which is what saved sasuke 

I don't know how many times I must say this. A raiton cloak has no piercing element. the guy doesn't even have any piercing jutsu. 

its not even his bloody fighting style to cut or pierce through things he uses taijutsu strikes to crush his enemies. seriously don't get it. 

the man faces madara his strongest enemy ever and goes for a punch then a karate chop which is a simple karate chop speed up by RCM as described in the DB. yet people wanna be claiming A is going to be cutting thing left right and center when that isn't at all his fighting style. 


that's no different from saying gai grabs a kunai and tries to decapitate someone 

your argument is silly why hebi sasuke would be even slightly compared to MS sasuke is ridiculous. considering MS>>>>>>>sharingan 

all situations taka sasuke was in, hebi in those situations would have laughably died. namely the one u posted 

sharingan cant follow v2 A movement. hebi sasuke would have had his neck broken and he would have died right there


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> are u comparing orochimaru healing abilities to sasuke ?



The healing power derives from the White Snake, and Orochimaru uses Oral Rebirth (a White Snake jutsu) for serious damage. Sasuke possessed the White Snake, and its supreme rejuvenation jutsu.​


Icegaze said:


> this A punch having piercing element mind showing me where it says so in the manga or DB



The raiton element is called the piercing element. It's also what all around A's body, including his fists. It doesn't matter though, as his performance against the rib-cage was superior _either way_.​


Icegaze said:


> I don't know how many times I must say this. A raiton cloak has no piercing element. the guy doesn't even have any piercing jutsu.



Which must be why he pierced through CS2 Jugo's shield and rib-cage Susano'o.​


Icegaze said:


> sharingan cant follow v2 A movement. hebi sasuke would have had his neck broken and he would have died right there



As we saw in part one, the Curse Seal increases reflexes and speed enormously. Sasuke couldn't track v2 A without pseudo-sage chakra pumping him up, but with it? You don't know.​


Icegaze said:


> also that punch orochimaru tanked was weak. she hadn't even released byakuyo.



Her strength isn't dependent on the Yin seal release.​


Icegaze said:


> tsunade holding back isn't going to be much stronger than A. so orochimaru getting up isn't surprising. though I hav no idea what that has to do with sasuke



Sasuke has Orochimaru's body powers.​


Icegaze said:


> who could only use oral rebirth once and had no ability to reattach himself like orochimaru. you are desperately reaching



_He never had to re-attach himself_, but we saw him replace his CS2 wing with snakes, which is the same basic principle. He also used katons, raitons, genjutsu, transformations, summons etc.

So it's not like takes him more chakra than it takes Orochimaru. Orochimaru just doesn't use the same variance of jutsu, and just chases things with the Kusanagi and spams Oral Rebirth.​


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The Liger Bomb broke rib-cage Susano'o? Where? Moreover, the CS2 state is _much_ better than rib-cage Susnao'o. Imagine CS2 Itachi or CS2 Madara. It's a pseudo-Sage state, enhancing everything.​



_He cracked a rib. _

..and you think CS2 Sasuke is more durable than Susano'o? He might have more damage soak because he more elastic than Susano'o is, but given that A rolled CS2 Jugo with two punches, I doubt Sasuke's shaking off Liger Bomb.



> I personally consider their resilience to be equivalent.



That's all I needed.

A puts Sasuke out of commission with two hits. He could get the job done even faster if he used Raiton chops or powerful techniques like Liger Bomb.



> My interpretation of that Tsukuyomi is that speed and strength is what Itachi was capable of before his body was eaten away by sickness.​



Sooo healthy/Edo Itachi can put Crazed Jugo in a choke hold...?



> Don't you remember when Naruto started handing out KN1 boosts to ninja, the forums _marveled_ at their feats? It's a _huge_ enhancement for already powerful ninja. It's taken for granted.​



It's a decent amount of power, but it's a _drop_ compared to the amount of biju chakra KCM Naruto uses. KCM Naruto >>>...>>> KN1.



> Why is that unbelievable to you?​



A's father, who should be comparable to A, could only stalemate a Biju, tying with the Hachibi due to _complete and utter exhaustion. _

Yet you believe A can waste a comparable amount of power on top of other things and maintain a perfectly fresh appearance because "he's a fucking G."



> Funny. The Raikage building up a tailed beast "cloud" of chakra and then maintaining that around him while he moves at hypersonic speed sounds ridiculous to me. Even without Ebisu's explanation.​





_Cloud?_



> Only if you don't read correctly. "v2" is not a thing. It's a fan-made term describing the singular instance in the manga where A was stated to build up a tailed beast amount of chakra for a shunshin jutsu.​



*A did not build up chakra for shunshin.* 

First off, "v2" is a quick and convenient term for describing A wearing his Raiton armor at _maximum_ amplification (spiked hair). It is in this "form" that he uses his fastest punches.

Secondly, he gathered a bunch of chakra for the purpose of maintaining v2 . The amount of chakra dedicated towards any single shunshin is dependant on _distance and elevation,_ not speed.


----------



## Icegaze (May 21, 2015)

> Strategoob said:
> 
> 
> > The healing power derives from the White Snake, and Orochimaru uses Oral Rebirth (a White Snake jutsu) for serious damage. Sasuke possessed the White Snake, and its supreme rejuvenation jutsu.​
> ...


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> ..and you think CS2 Sasuke is more durable than Susano'o?



You just proved it. And say Susano'o _rib-cage_.​


Rocky said:


> I doubt Sasuke's shaking off Liger Bomb.



Sasuke no-diff tanked this and this. Moreover, A grappled base Sasuke into a throw. But CS2 Sasuke? With enhanced strength and speed? It's a different level of feat.

For instance. Normal humans (base Sasuke) can't easily counter giant snakes grappling them. CS2 Sasuke makes them explode by flexing his muscles. Two different ballparks.​


Rocky said:


> That's all I needed. A puts Sasuke out of commission with two hits. He could get the job done even faster if he used Raiton chops or powerful techniques like Liger Bomb.



Yeah. You're not reading carefully. CS2 Sasuke's speed is tiers higher (and higher than base Sasuke,) so A isn't getting clean hits in v1, and may not even be able to get a clean hit with v2.

Grappling Sasuke into a Liger Bomb is also doubtful given that Sasuke has a lot more strength and transformations to counter it, and that Sasuke has effortlessly tanked crater-slams anyway.

*Important edit* because I may not have been clear: being able to _cleanly_ punch Jugo and knock him out is my point. Against somebody who can react, it's not going to be like that.​


Rocky said:


> Sooo healthy/Edo Itachi can put Crazed Jugo in a choke hold...?



Heathy Itachi can put giant Butterfly Choji in a chokehold.​


Rocky said:


> It's a decent amount of power, but it's a _drop_ compared to the amount of biju chakra KCM Naruto uses. KCM Naruto >>>...>>> KN1.



It's still a huge boost.​


Rocky said:


> Yet you believe A can waste a comparable amount of power on top of other things



The other things A used against Sasuke were basically maintaining his cloak and punching stuff. Not exactly super exhausting stuff relative to somebody with a tailed beast amount of chakra.

And waste? Evading Amaterasu and landing a hit on Sasuke was a waste? I'd say it was a damn good expenditure for someone who isn't at all versatile like the 4th Raikage.​


Rocky said:


> Secondly, he gathered a bunch of chakra for the purpose of maintaining v2 .



The manga says the opposite. C specifically said the chakra was gathered for the shunshin to counter Amaterasu. As I said before, the "v2 cloak" does not exist. It's one shunshin.​


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sasuke no-diff tanked this and this.​



The first scan was a _bomb_. A's power is concentrated within the surface area of his fist. There's a reason that Madara's Sage-enhanced Susano'o was smashed to bits by a simple tail slap from the nine Biju, while his weaker Base construct was unscathed after the Jubi fucking blew up the battlefield with a technique illustrated similar to a _nuclear explosion._

The second was Sasuke surviving a punch from preskip Naruto. A > KCM Naruto >x50 Preskip KN1.



> Yeah. You're not reading carefully. CS2 Sasuke's speed is tiers higher (and higher than base Sasuke,) so A isn't getting those hits in v1, and may not even be able to get a clean hit with v2.​



That isn't how a taijutsu exchange works. 

Sasuke has the ability to read A's taijutsu (just as he does nearly anyone else's), but consistently evading isn't going to get him anywhere, and A will eventually catch on. Sasuke lacks the strength to hurt A or even parry his strikes, and considering the stamina disparity, Sasuke's going to get _dominated_ in a boxing match. 

The Curse Seal may help Sasuke survive a bit longer, but even that isn't enough to even out strength & resilience between the two given what happened with Jugo.



> Heathy Itachi can put A in a chokehold.​



No he can't.



> It's still a huge boost.​



Relative to KCM Naruto (who was physically dominated by A), no it isn't.



> The other things A used against Sasuke were basically maintaining his cloak and punching stuff. Not exactly super exhausting stuff relative to somebody with a tailed beast amount of chakra.​



Taijutsu does cost stamina, and while not that much, that wasn't my main point.

According to you, one v2 Shunshin uses up tailed beast levels of power. Sandaime Raikage is roughly equal to one biju, yet A can keep going after expending a comparable amount of power in one go despite using up stamina prior. 



> As I said before, the "v2 cloak" does not exist. It's one shunshin.​



_No it isn't._ 

If that were true, A's hair would have fallen back down when he came to complete stop after evading Amaterasu, but it _remained spiked_ for his subsequent chop and leg drop. [1][2]

A ascended to max power (v2), _then_ gathered a ton of chakra, likely for the purpose of maintaining such power over a lengthy period of time. C's comment doesn't contradict this.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The first scan was a _bomb_.



Do I need to argue why having a _bomb_ of this size dropped _directly on you_ requires more way resilience than getting slammed into concrete by a strong man? Cut me a break here, Rocky.​


Rocky said:


> The second was Sasuke surviving a punch from preskip Naruto. A > KCM Naruto >x50 Preskip KN1.



No. The craters are similar size and that means similar force. You're taking overall level and applying generally, which is wrong. You might as well argue old Hiruzen's stronger than p1 Butterly Choji.​


Rocky said:


> The Curse Seal may help Sasuke survive a bit longer, but even that isn't enough to even out strength & resilience between the two given what happened with Jugo.



You keep trying to equivocate the two. You might as well equivocate a Sage Rin to a Sage Minato. The same power-up in Sasuke's hands makes him _exponentially_ more challenging then Jugo.​


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Relative to KCM Naruto (who was physically dominated by A), no it isn't.



KCM wasn't going all out (or anything close to it,) so this is moot. Sage Naruto would be _more_ than enough to dominate v1 A.​


Rocky said:


> According to you, one v2 Shunshin uses up tailed beast levels of power. Sandaime Raikage is roughly equal to one biju, yet A can keep going after expending a comparable amount of power in one go despite using up stamina prior.



Who says Karen was equivocating the 4th's chakra build up to Gyuki, and not, say, Shukaku? There's a big range there.​


Rocky said:


> If that were true, A's hair would have fallen back down when he came to complete stop after evading Amaterasu, but it _remained spiked_ for his subsequent chop and leg drop. [1][2]



His hair was up when he stopped mid-shunshin, and while he was _falling_? Um, Gravity? But a few seconds after he's back to normal, as if it were a one-shunshin deal like C said.​


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sasuke level of healing cant be remotely compared. considering sick rejecting oro can use oral rebirth 3 times while sasuke can just manage 1.



Sasuke used _way_ more other jutsu than Orochimaru, however. If Hebi Sasuke only used Oral Rebirth, then he could likely use it 3 times too, without much issue.​


Icegaze said:


> add that to the fact that unlike sasuke orochimaru can survive being split in half.



Sasuke survived having 3/4 his body turned to ash. Which is worse.​


Icegaze said:


> futon element is called a cutting element. so I take it all futon jutsu are cutting jutsu?



I'd say if you put pure futon chakra in a knife, then it would cut better. Sound familiar? So if you put futon chakra around your hand and then do a karate chop, guess what?​


Icegaze said:


> MS is more of an increase. to reflexes



The gap between MS precognition and 3-tomoe precognition is more or less negligible. The boost of CS2 to natural reflexes and body movement is a different story entirely.​


Icegaze said:


> sasuke gets MS thinks he can crush konoha.



Yes. He thinks he can crush Konoha, and that all 5 Kage and their most elite ninja in one place can't possibly stop him. We also learn that the MS causes brain damage.​


----------



## Veracity (May 21, 2015)

Do people actually take crater size seriously ? Who the hell actually thinks Kishi sits down and logically scales every single crater illustration ? That's fucking illogical.

Full Kisame puts a considerable amount of force into a sword swing blocked by a nameless toad and it doesn't even go through the wooden floors:3/4 his body turned to ash

While Shouten Kisame creates  building sized splash explosions with his godamn arm:  3/4 his body turned to ash

Kisames full weight sword swing against Asuma hardly even created a splash. 

Crater size in Naruto is almost as bad as it is in DBZ 

Sasuke would be turned into nothing by a liger Bomb considering how cleanly ays straight forward punch went through CC2 Jugo.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

A piercing raiton punch and a slam into the ground aren't comparable IMO. His raiton punch would pierce CS2 Sauske, but CS2 Sasuke would walk away from the Liger Bomb no sweat.​


----------



## Veracity (May 21, 2015)

Don't know why they wouldn't be comparable given the fact that Ay is slamming the user down with all his force. I think his raiton cloak doesn't naturally pierce unless he's going for a chop or something of that nature. KCM Naruto was impressed by the weight behind his punch leading me to believe it's mostly blunt force damage. With that being said it's pretty damn obvious that his personal technique called liger Bomb is a lot more deadly than a straight foward punch . But maybe that's just me.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

One is crusing/blunt damage and the other (if he goes for it) is piercing. One would be effective against CS2 Sasuke's body and one wouldn't, in my view, based on the evidence I've provided.​


----------



## Veracity (May 21, 2015)

I don't think ays straightforward punch has any piecing effect actually. It's only ever been speculated by forum members( maybe the DB in some stretch?) but feats actually go against that. Never has any manga character ever made the statement or even implied that his punches have a piercing advantage.

Sage enhanced Madara is easily pierced by Sasukes non flow sword yet isn't even scratched by ays "piercing ." And you would think that KCM Naruto, who was taking direct shots, would have said something about the piercing effects of his punch. then again maybe I'm missing something, but according to my knowledge it doesn't pierce anymore than an ordinary punch.


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Do I need to argue why having a _bomb_ of this size dropped _directly on you_ requires more way resilience than getting slammed into concrete by a strong man? Cut me a break here, Rocky.​



_That_ bomb injured Sasuke, and is featless outside of it. I do know that AoE explosions tend to not deal as much damage as concentrated forces.

See:



			
				Me said:
			
		

> Madara's Sage-enhanced Susano'o was smashed to bits by a simple tail slap from the nine Biju, while his weaker, base construct was *unscathed* after the Jubi fucking blew up the battlefield with a technique illustrated similar to a nuclear explosion.





> No. The craters are similar size and that means similar force. You're taking overall level and applying generally, which is wrong. You might as well argue old Hiruzen's stronger than p1 Butterly Choji.​



One, _no they're not_, and two, power scaling is a far better way to judge attack strength than comparing crater sizes from pages over 200 chapters apart imo.

Saying Hiruzen > Choji in strength is bad power scaling since Hiruzen's power comes from areas that aren't physical. Saying KCM Naruto >>> Preskip KN1 is _obvious _power scaling because the Kyubi is what makes Naruto so fast & strong to begin with.



> You keep trying to equivocate the two. You might as well equivocate a Sage Rin to a Sage Minato. The same power-up in Sasuke's hands makes him _exponentially_ more challenging then Jugo.​



_Challenging_, not durable or resilient. 

A won't just blitz Sasuke and two-shot him. However, he's got vastly superior strength, stamina, and durability. He'd win decisively in a close quarters bout.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> See:



On the other hand, Sasuke's wing casually blocked a crater-creating force and removed via explosion. Your example is an outlier. In reality and common sense, tanking explosions is more impressive.​


Rocky said:


> Saying Hiruzen > Choji in strength is bad power scaling since Hiruzen's power comes from areas that aren't physical.



A's power is speed not strength. He's nowhere near being physically stronger than CS2 Jirobo or butterfly Choji and doesn't have strength feats anywhere neat them despite being able to neg diff them.​


Rocky said:


> One, no they're not



Yes, they are, in the grand scheme of things i.e. both are a tiny fraction of the size of the explosion that Sasuke tanked. If Sasuke tanked a smaller crater-hit, he can tank a mildly larger one.​


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> KCM wasn't going all out (or anything close to it,) so this is moot. Sage Naruto would be _more_ than enough to dominate v1 A.​



KCM Naruto wasn't attacking A with Rasenshuriken or anything, but he was trying his hardest to run past him and kept getting bitch-smacked back to the ground.

Sage Naruto would probably hold the edge up close (if he were allowed to use Rasengan variants) thanks to his sensing, but if v1 A started to use his burst speed (shunshin) then Naruto'd struggle to counter attack. Sage Mode would run out and A'd go on to stomp from there.



> Who says Karen was equivocating the 4th's chakra build up to Gyuki, and not, say, Shukaku? There's a big range there.​



Outside of Kurama, I wouldn't say there are any major differences between the biju. That's why characters constantly refer to other characters with insane stamina as just "biju level" instead of specifying each biju.

If we _were_ to specify, then I'd say that Karin was most likely comparing A to the Hachibi because _that's the biju she had just fought against._ Could she have been talking about Shukaku? Sure, but given that we don't have any proof that's she's ever even _seen_ Shukaku in person, that isn't the strongest argument imo.



> His hair was up when he stopped mid-shunshin, and while he was _falling_? Um, Gravity? But a few seconds after he's back to normal, as if it were a one-shunshin deal like C said.​



His Shunshin was over as soon as Sasuke threw up the Enton shield and his hair was still spiked, so my point stands even if I were to agree with your gravity excuse.

The reason he had powered down afterwards was probably because the fight had been interrupted. We were given no indication that it was because of stamina, especially considering he turned off RCM completely yet still had juice left in the tank.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> KCM Naruto wasn't attacking A with Rasenshuriken or anything, but he was trying his hardest to run past him and kept getting bitch-smacked back to the ground.



When he _actually_ tried his hardest to get past him, he got past him.



Rocky said:


> Sage Naruto would probably hold the edge up close



We saw a Sage Naruto clone panel a stronger version of v1 4th Raikage.



Rocky said:


> Outside of Kurama, I wouldn't say there are any major differences between the biju.



IMO the tails indicate an hierarchy of chakra amount. KN1, KN3, KN4, KN6, KN8. 



Rocky said:


> His Shunshin was over as soon as Sasuke threw up the Enton shield and his hair was still spiked, so my point stands even if I were to agree with your gravity excuse.



Your point is that his hair remained up for literally _moments_ following the shunshin, which is why you concluded it wasn't just one shunshin at all despite what C and Ebisu have said and was in fact a "mode."


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> On the other hand, Sasuke's wing casually blocked a crater-creating force and removed via explosion. Your example is an outlier. In reality and common sense, tanking explosions is more impressive.​



My example was an outlier? Which part? Was the Tenpen Chi supposed to be stronger or the biju tails supposed to be weaker?

How about v2 Lariat vs. island-sized explosion? That an outlier?



> A's power is speed not strength. He's nowhere near being physically stronger than CS2 Jirobo or butterfly Choji and doesn't have strength feats anywhere neat them despite being able to neg diff them.[/indent.​




A is a Kage level physical beast with strength that makes other Kage level physical beasts drool.

KCM Naruto arguably has a greater strength feat than Jirobo, as he pushed a full-size Bijudama through a barrier. Bijudama is known for being extremely dense, which means it was probably heavier than Choji. A dominated that same Naruto.​


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

The reason "v2" A was sitting and waiting for Sasuke to use Amaterasu was because it was good for one shunshin burst, and he had to make it count. If it was a mode, he'd zip around indefinitely.

But because he's _never_ done that, and because "v2" has only ever been called a shunshin and used in shunshin-like bursts, and because of how Ebisu explained ninjutsu works, v2 is not a mode.​


Rocky said:


> A is a Kage level physical beast with strength that makes other Kage level physical beasts drool.



Like Bee? Tsunade? Gai? Sages? Who?​


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> When he _actually_ tried his hardest to get past him, he got past him.



 He never attempted offense at that moment and he was moving in the same direction as Ei was at fairly high speeds which gave him a far better chance of reacting with Shunshin.





> We saw a Sage Naruto clone panel a stronger version of v1 4th Raikage.



 I would agree here, he certainly can dodge his speed even if he is slower.





> IMO the tails indicate an hierarchy.



 Agreed. Kisame seems to imply it with Bee's V2 Bijuu Mode though I do wish Kishi was consistent as all Bijuu except for the Shukaku (potentially) seemed roughly equal during their clash with Kakashi, Gai, Naruto, and Bee.


As for Ei's descent prior to Sasuke's Enton Shield, he certainly did not use Shunshin as he continued his descent. You could argue that he used Shunshin to swiftly get to Sasuke's position, but the fact that gravity resisted his motion and eventually caused him to fall implies he was no longer in RnY speed and was instead only be propelled by gravity because Ei simply cannot use Shunshin in mid-air. That's impossible as Shunshin relies on storing and releasing chakra into your feet to enhance your physical speed, but Ei has nothing to push off meaning he was not in Shunshin.

 Ei having his Cloak up as nothing to do with it as Ei can keep his cloak active even without using Shunshin. The Cloak basically doesn't indicate whether or not Ei is using his Shunshin at all.

 Hopefully I'm addressing the right argument as I don't have the time to read through all your guys' posts.


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> When he _actually_ tried his hardest to get past him, he got past him.



He was trying his hardest the entire time. 

Why would he not?

Was there a reason he _wouldn't_ want to get past A?



> We saw a Sage Naruto clone panel a stronger version of v1 4th Raikage.



Naruto can _totally_ do the same to A (who's faster than his father in both v1 and v2 btw) despite A having no Nukite for Naruto to redirect into him.



> IMO the tails indicate an hierarchy of chakra amount. KN1, KN3, KN4, KN6, KN8.



I don't understand..



> Your point is that his hair remained up for literally _moments_ following the shunshin, which is why you concluded it wasn't just one shunshin at all despite what C and Ebisu have said and was in fact a "mode."



V2 is A's RCM at its strongest. That is why his hair spikes up at the drop of a dime, _before_ any chakra is gathered.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He was trying his hardest the entire time.
> 
> Why would he not?



The same reason A didn't immediately use v2 shunshin on Sasuke. Ninja don't often use their best stuff immediately, because it takes a lot of effort and chakra for them to do so.​


Rocky said:


> Naruto can _totally_ do the same to A (who's faster than his father in both v1



What evidence do you have that their v1 speeds are unequal? A was known to be fast because of his "v2" flicker jutsu. Without using that, he's scarcely faster than base Sasuke.​


Rocky said:


> V2 is A's RCM at its strongest. That is why his hair spikes up at the drop of a dime, _before_ any chakra is gathered.



The raiton cloak was said to affect reflexes, not speed. It makes no sense to say stronger raiton cloak equals stronger speed when C said the built up chakra was for a shunshin.​


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The reason "v2" A was sitting and waiting for Sasuke to use Amaterasu was because it was good for one shunshin burst, and he had to make it count. If it was a mode, he'd zip around indefinitely.



But because he's _never_ done that, and because "v2" has only ever been called a shunshin and used in shunshin-like bursts, and because of how Ebisu explained ninjutsu works, v2 is not a mode.[/quote]

I'm not going to repeat myself man.

A using v2, _spiked hair and all_, against B and _not_ using Shunshin outright proves that v2 is just RCM at full power.




> Like Bee? Tsunade? Gai? Sages? Who?​



Um, Kurama Naruto.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A using v2, _spiked hair and all_, against B and _not_ using Shunshin outright proves that v2 is just RCM at full power.



How does that prove v2 _speed_ is a mode and not a shunshin? Either he was moving v2 speed there and it lasted the moment of the lariat, or he wasn't moving at that speed at all.

If your argument this entire time has been whether A can lift his hair without using a shunshin, then congratulations, I agree with you. But I'm arguing whether he can spam the v2 shunshin.​


Rocky said:


> Um, Kurama Naruto.



KCM Naruto doesn't use strength to overwhelm enemies, only speed.​


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The same reason A didn't immediately use v2 shunshin on Sasuke. Ninja don't often use their best stuff immediately, because it takes a lot of effort and chakra for them to do so.​



This wasn't a fight.

This was Naruto trying to get past A and A saying no.

Naruto wouldn't have been going purposely slower in that situation.



> What evidence do you have that their v1 speeds are unequal?​



lol 

What evidence do you have that they are equal? 

I do know that A's reflexes were hyped to be Yellow Flash-level without any Raiton enhancement while the 3rd's were not, sooo...


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Naruto wouldn't have been going purposely slower in that situation.



He clearly was, because he blew past A when he got serious.​


Rocky said:


> What evidence do you have that they are equal?



Naruto complementing the 3rd's speed and similar feats.​


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 21, 2015)

V2 likely isn't a "mode" in the fact that it's sustainable. It's more of an immense burst of Chakra that Ei uses to enhance his Raiton Cloak for multiple different purposes (commonly Shunshin, but it doesn't have to be). While Ei usually doesn't use Bijuu Level Chakra for his Raiton Cloak, we have seen him amp up his Chakra and use it for things other than Shunshin such as his Liger Bomb (correct name?). Other than that, V1 Raiton Cloak would be similar to a mode compared to V2 as Ei seems to sustain it for long periods of time while he doesn't do so with his V2 Raiton Cloak. 

 Think of V2 as being similar to Kaoken excluding the strain it puts on the user. 

 As for spamming V2 Shunshin, Ei has never been shown capable of doing so, but considering he has amped up his Raiton Cloak on multiple occasions, it's possible that he does have high amounts of chakra and can use V2 Shunshin for quite some time. After all, he is the 3rd Raikage's son who is hyped up to have Bijuu level stamina.


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> How does that prove v2 _speed_ is a mode and not a shunshin?​



Maybe there was some huge misunderstanding somewhere. 

I _agree_ that A does not move at v2 flicker speeds constantly while in v2. He only moves that fast when he, ya know, activates the body flicker while in v2. He can be in v2 and move at normal speeds (like he did against B).

That said, the reason he gathers chakra is not to throw it all away in one flicker. He does it to keep v2/max-power/spiked hair active longer, which means he can keep using shunshin at super fast speeds.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Maybe there was some huge misunderstanding somewhere.
> 
> I _agree_ that A does not move at v2 flicker speeds constantly while in v2. He only moves that fast when he, ya know, activates the body flicker while in v2. He can be in v2 and move at normal speeds (like he did against B).



Agreed. 

(Except he was moving v2 against Bee so I can have v3 Itachi.)​


Rocky said:


> That said, the reason he gathers chakra is not to throw it all away in one flicker. He does it to keep v2/max-power/spiked hair active longer, which means he can keep using shunshin at super fast speeds.



Disagree. Look at the  lapse between when his cloak surging and when Karen saying A was continuing building chakra. His v2 shunshin takes "charge time" and the more that goes into it, the faster he goes. It was not the cloak, but the shunshin build-up.

In the Amaterasu-dodging feat, the author made a point through C and Karen's combined comments to let us know that it took a _lot_ for that shunshin. It's not something that can be repeated excessively. He waited for Amaterasu to evade _because it was a burst_.

If he could maintain v2 shunshin speed indefinitely, then he would not have waited. There would be no need to, and would be more dangerous then moving out of sight as soon as possible and flanking him. There was a reason he sat and waited, however. 

Because that speed is not indefinite, him using a v2 shunshin _burst_ and then stopping would leave him vulnerable to being hit by Amaterasu, as he'd need to charge-up another one. So he waited for his moment to evade Amaterasu and counter Sasuke all at once. 

Many people believe that A turns on "v2" cloak and then can move at v2 shunshin speed indefinitely. This was never portrayed to be the case. His shunshin is limited by charge-time, by short burst duration, and by a high cost (even compared to A's high stamina.)​


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Agreed.
> 
> (Except he was moving v2 against Bee so I can have v3 Itachi.)​



 Except he doesn't have to release all that chakra solely for Shunshin.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Except he doesn't have to release all that chakra solely for Shunshin.



You lose "built-up" chakra (converted from stamina) either way.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You lose "built-up" chakra (converted from stamina) either way.



 Well, sure, but in that instance, Ei likely distributed all that stored Chakra towards his Lariat as he attempted to overpower Bee as well as the fact that the Lariat is considered a Raiton technique. 

 Though honestly, I doubt Ei would be using massive amounts of stamina in order to use V2 continuously as that guy has superb chakra control. Being able to apply Raiton Manipulation all throughout your body and accumulate Bijuu levels of Chakra is no joke.


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> (Except he was moving v2 against Bee so I can have v3 Itachi.)​



You already won that debate. 



> His v2 shunshin take "charge time" and the more that goes into it, the faster he goes.



That isn't how shunshin works. The Databook flat out tells us that chakra used up only determines distance & elevation. 

Besides, against everyone else that faced v2, he didn't have to gather a ton of chakra.



> In the Amaterasu-dodging feat, the author made a point through C and Karen's combined comments to let us know that it took a _lot_ for that shunshin.



That's just untrue. There is nothing indicating that Shunshin took alot. There no panels of A being fatigued, someone claiming him to be fatigued, or someone saying the using Shunshin in v2 would fatigue him.

There's nothing.

_Nothing._



> Many people believe that A turns on "v2" cloak and then can move at v2 shunshin speed indefinitely. This was never portrayed to be the case. His shunshin is limited by charge-time, by short burst duration, and by a high cost (even compared to A's high stamina.) [/indent]



_Shunshin_ is burst speed, yes. That said, he doesn't _have_ to charge for it, and it doesn't come at a high cost.

What he "charged" for was the ability to keep RCM operating at maximum potential for an extended period of time should he need it for that long.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What he "charged" for was the ability to keep RCM operating at maximum potential for an extended period of time should he need it for that long.



But the hair-lifting was done immediately and he was still building chakra for pages afterward (although only a few seconds.) C said it was for a shunshin. Therefore, the charge-time was not for the cloak lifting his hair, but for the shunshin itself.​


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 21, 2015)

Ei didn't have to travel a far distance compared to what most speedsters are capable of doing in order to Shunshin past Sasuke's defense.

 I'm certain Ei needed Bijuu levels of Chakra to flicker at max speed.


----------



## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> But the hair-lifting was done immediately and he was still building chakra for pages afterward (although only a few seconds.) C said it was for a shunshin. Therefore, the charge-time was not for the cloak lifting his hair, but for the shunshin itself.​



The chakra isn't going into the cloak to power it though. The cloak is drawing from the gathered chakra to sustain itself. The cloak's power is completely separate from the biju thing. In Ebisu's graph, I picture it as A converting a biju-sized portion of stamina into chakra (this is what Karin sensed), and v2 RCM drains that gathered chakra away at a controlled rate. 

Imo, Ebisu's graph was retconned in that stamina converted into chakra can be converted back though. Or maybe ninja with higher chakra control can keep gathered chakra around (instead of having it just disperse) to use for other techniques until it's all gone, in which case they'd have to gather more. 

Kishimoto was inconsistent with this shit, but that's the best rationalization I can come up with. It's definitely better than A using up over a biju's worth of chakra in the Sasuke fight and showing zero signs of fatigue.


----------



## Icegaze (May 22, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sasuke used _way_ more other jutsu than Orochimaru, however. If Hebi Sasuke only used Oral Rebirth, then he could likely use it 3 times too, without much issue.​



and orochimaru used other jutsu to. 



> Sasuke survived having 3/4 his body turned to ash. Which is worse.​



burning slowly then using oral rebirth to escape isnt remotely the same as smiling while cut in half and stichign urself back up. sasuke was never remotely implied to be on orochimaru level of healing

A and his dad use raiton cloak. i guess u want to claim they have the same speed now 

minato and tobirama use hirashin i guess u want to claim they are on the same level of speed 

funnier madara and itachi use susanoo they arent on the same level

so the BS statement of white snake power means sasuke can heal with the same ease orochimaru does is entirely wrong 




> I'd say if you put pure futon chakra in a knife, then it would cut better. Sound familiar? So if you put futon chakra around your hand and then do a karate chop, guess what?​



yes thats flowing futton into the knife which is an entirely seperate jutsu from kakuzu attack and an entirely separate jutsu from what A does with his cloak when compared to flowing raiton through a blade



sasuke puts chidori round his body it doesnt cut anyone now does it. it shocks them because thats what its designed to do

A cloak is armor as described in the Db and manga which boosts his reflexes nothing at all is said about it giving him cutting power. for real its fool proof 

sayign raiton is a piercing ability is wrong and hilariously silly. people can use their element to make it do what they want it to according to their level

doton has been used to weigh down, make someone lighter, create mountains, rock golems etc. 
raiton, shocking, cutting, armor, genjutsu etc

all separate jutsu. its like sayign tobirama used water to cut a tree in half so anyone using a water jutsu can cut the tree. 

A jutsu is entirely separate from flowing chakra through ur hand for cutting or stabing like raikiri

[





> indent]The gap between MS precognition and 3-tomoe precognition is more or less negligible. The boost of CS2 to natural reflexes and body movement is a different story entirely.[/indent]



 the gap between the 2 is no different from the gap between 3 tomoe and 2 tomoe remember how that changed things for sasuke. 

MS gives greater insight manga fact u claiming its negligible is fan fic at its best. do show me sasuke doing somethign in cs2 in terms of speed or reaction that he couldnt in base. go on ill wait



> indent]Yes. He thinks he can crush Konoha, and that all 5 Kage and their most elite ninja in one place can't possibly stop him. We also learn that the MS causes brain damage. [/indent]



despite his brain damage MS sasuke and hebi sasuke had 1 thing in common run straight at the enemy and attack. maybe hebi was already showing signs of brain damage

he saw 2 akatsuki and ran at them. thats the height of stupidity right there


----------



## Icegaze (May 22, 2015)

btw if A cant spam V2 shunshin why on earth was he able to keep outspeeding 5 madara susanoo clones
madara grabbing him only to genjutsu him kinda indicates A was moving too fast for madara to even meet his eyes. 

if u think he can do that in V1 then jugo is a beast for reacting to A.


----------



## Turrin (May 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kishimoto was inconsistent with this shit, but that's the best rationalization I can come up with. It's definitely better than A using up over a biju's worth of chakra in the Sasuke fight and showing zero signs of fatigue.


You don't think Ei was fatigued at the end of that fight? I would think Ei was fairly exhausted as otherwise your arguing a totally fresh Ei can't evade the AOE of the ceiling collapsing, despite his speed, in which case Ei has much bigger problems fighting against Kage class fighters, than his Max-Speed exhausting him.


----------



## Veracity (May 22, 2015)

Except that's completely opinionated and not backed up by anything. There's literally no proof that ay would have flickered away from the falling building even if he was fresh . The falling debris doesn't have any effect on Ay because his Durabilty is high anyway.


----------



## Turrin (May 22, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Except that's completely opinionated and not backed up by anything. There's literally no proof that ay would have flickered away from the falling building even if he was fresh . The falling debris doesn't have any effect on Ay because his Durabilty is high anyway.


Why on gods green earth would Ei allow a building to fall on him obscuring his view and allowing Sasuke the chance to ether get away or lash out with a successive strike. Ei would have to be a moron with zero battle sense for your assertion to fit, which is even worse than Ei being unable to avoid the collapsing ceiling, which is in turn worse than his max-speed exhausting him. Just keep dragging Ei's character down further while trying to maintain this Ei can use R2/Max-Speed for huge durations fanfic guys


----------



## Alex Payne (May 22, 2015)

Biju-level chakra might simply mean the cost for attack/ability that only bijus and the like can use. Random bijudama is also charged up by using "biju level" chakra. But even lower tails ain't going to be exhausted after just one blast.


----------



## Icegaze (May 22, 2015)

Actually both of you A didn't escape the fall so that he could save darui and C who were right next to him
sure he could escape it but how about his 2 subordinates?

gaara also has shown more than enough speed to evade a ceiling falling on him. yet stood there


A chose to save his team mates. 

i have no idea why a guy with bijuu level chakra can use multiple max level shunshin 

that's like saying a bijuu can only fire 1 BD. its ridiculous. 

Also if A max speed was so limited he would be horrendously weaker than minato and pretty much everyone he is put up against in the Db. since his normal ration cloak speed is something the likes of shitty jugo can react to


----------



## Turrin (May 22, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Biju-level chakra might simply mean the cost for attack/ability that only bijus and the like can use. Random bijudama is also charged up by using "biju level" chakra. But even lower tails ain't going to be exhausted after just one blast.


It's still not something they can spam endlessly as people treat R2/Max-Speed as something Ei can just spam endlessly to win any attrition wars.


----------



## Veracity (May 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Why on gods green earth would Ei allow a building to fall on him obscuring his view and allowing Sasuke the chance to ether get away or lash out with a successive strike. Ei would have to be a moron with zero battle sense for your assertion to fit, which is even worse than Ei being unable to avoid the collapsing ceiling, which is in turn worse than his max-speed exhausting him. Just keep dragging Ei's character down further while trying to maintain this Ei can use R2/Max-Speed for huge durations fanfic guys



Because that's in Ay's character? He also watched as Gaara talked too Sasuke And battled a Sussano less version of him knowing he could Have amped his cloak and blizted him off that landscape during a distraction. And like IceGaze said, he was probably trying to protect his bodyguards. 

6 strikes, 2 flickers and a body slam aren't enough to tire out the Raikage. If that's the case then everyone would outlast the Raikage lol and KISHI would have implied somewhere that his chakra is ran through via RnY and flickers. But that's not the case. He showed more during his encounter with Naruto and he showed no signs of exhaustion.. Unless you honestly think he needs a Bjuii amount of chakra in every single flicker... Which doesn't make sense considering isn't really going that fast. Nobody puts that much chakra into a flicker, as characters like EMS Madara, Minato , Hashirama and tobirama aren't that much slower than ay and don't even actually specialize in flickers.


----------



## Rocky (May 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Why on gods green earth would Ei allow a building to fall on him obscuring his view and allowing Sasuke the chance to ether get away or lash out with a successive strike.



 

Ever hear of plot? Most ninja worth their salt shoud be capable of avoiding a falling ceiling with Shunshin (like the Kage and Elite Jonin in that room), but Kishimoto needed to give Sasuke an opening to escape. 

A reacted to it falling, and he still had enough juice left for Shunshin as displayed against Obito. He just didn't chase after Sasuke for the same reason Darui, Gaara, Temari, and everyone else decided to stand there.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> It's still not something they can spam endlessly as people treat R2/Max-Speed as something* Ei can just spam endlessly to win any attrition wars*.



Namely you 



Alex Payne said:


> Biju-level chakra might simply mean the cost for attack/ability that only bijus and the like can use. Random bijudama is also charged up by using "biju level" chakra. But even lower tails ain't going to be exhausted after just one blast.



I agree with this.


----------



## Turrin (May 22, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Namely you


I say Ei can spam R2/Max-Speed endlessly where exactly?


----------



## Sadgoob (May 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kishimoto was inconsistent with this shit, but that's the best rationalization I can come up with. It's definitely better than A using up over a biju's worth of chakra in the Sasuke fight and showing zero signs of fatigue.



Kakashi could only use 4 Raikiri in a day in part one, but didn't show fatigue after one despite that being 25% of his chakra. So who's to say that A isn't limited to four mega-shunshin bursts?

I think my point stands. The author made a point to say that the chakra going into the shunshin is _not_ negligible, and it's not something A can spam. Hence its tactical usage against Sasuke.

Turrin and Alex also made good observations that I think can fit soundly between our two interpretations.​


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I say Ei can spam R2/Max-Speed endlessly where exactly?



When he is fighting Itachi.


----------



## Bonly (May 22, 2015)

Vs Tsunade

Depends on how the first CQC exchange goes. If Sasuke manages to see her monster strength then chances are it's gonna be an Ama GG although if Tsunade manages to land a hit or catches Sasuke after he lands a hit then Sasuke's gonna go splat. 50/50 shot imo though I'd side with Sasuke.

vs Mei

Mei can keep Sasuke back with her huge Suitons meaning Sasuke would have to attack from afar with Raitons+Katon and she can counter his Katons so yeah. With Kirigakure to help blind Sasuke and set up other attacks, Mei could potentially give Sasuke's quite a bit problems that he might not overcome fast enough. Though depending on when Ama is used it could be a GG so it really depends on which comes out first, Ama or Kirigakure so it's a 50/50 imo.

vs Onoki

I'd say this depends on how skilled Onoki is in CQC. He somehow managed to touch five Susanoo clones without getting hit and then managed to save A from being slashed at with his Dotons so depending if he can manage to land a touch or not determines how the rest of the battle plays out as Sasuke might land a deadly/game changing blow in CQC if Onoki doesn't. Could go either way imo 

vs Gaara

Either Gaara's gourd sand is enough to stop him from Sasuke's Raitons thus buying him some time to flood the place with sand or he takes another nap but this time he won't wake up.

vs Jiraiya

Honestly this comes down to Ama imo. Jiraiya can put up a good fight and make it to SM which he'd be likely to win but while Base Jiraiya might be fast, I doubt he's fast enough to dodge Ama and he hasn't seen it used in person(just the end result) and he's not a sensor so he might not be fast enough to try a jutsu to get outta dodge. So it depends on Sasuke

vs B

El-Oh-El. B rapes like the health inspector from the Boondocks season one.

Vs Hebi Sasuke

Any jutsu clashes that go on between the same jutsu would result in a tie or it would result in Hebi Sasuke's win thanks to the power boost from the Curse Seal. All of Hebi Sasuke's stats are gonna be better thanks to the CS so his main problem is dealing with Ama and Susanoo. Hebi has already seen Itachi use Ama so he knows the signs of it coming and with snakes and Oral rebirth he should be able to counter Ama(unless he gets drained first). As for Susanoo I doubt any of Hebi's jutsu bar Kirin could get through so there's that so either becomes a case of who outlast who or who gets the first lucky/fatal shot in first.


----------



## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

can bijuu spam bijuudama?
if so A can spam his max shunshin 

like since when were people trying to put some silly limit on A ability. minato can spam hirashin despite less chakra, kisame can spam his jutsu 

but A who has bijuu level chakra cant spam bloody shunshin? when was this said? is it in the manga somewhere?

u think someone who got such a limit on his max speed would fight minato more than once, when minato is faster and got no hirashin limit?

common people, if A cant spam his max shunshin he would not be trying to face the likes of minato and would have been caught by susanoo much easier

unless somehow jugo is somehow a monster and got good reactions and all that. cuz A RCm cloak speed at its normal level is something everyone from low kage level to god tier can react to 

clearly he used it through out the madara clone battle, otherwise like I said he would have been grabbed by a clone while the clone gives him a look of derision


----------



## LostSelf (May 23, 2015)

Unless Sasuke knows about Tsunade's strenght, he can outright take her down or be taken down. If he knows about her strenght and common sense, he would know that stabbing a medical ninja might not be enough. However, considering he was arrogant enough (It seems MS not only enhanced his Sharingan) to stab a man as huge as the Raikage, he can make the same mistake here.

And once he does, he stops at round 1.

However, it's under his capabilities to kill her, or, at the very least, severely damage her to the point of winning the fight. With Sharingan precog. he can dodge her and cut her in half while she's still mid-strike, similar to how he did to V1 Ei, but with his chidori enhanced Katana.

We have to say that Sasuke first attempted to cut Ei's head off with a Chidori enhanced Katana. Therefore, i wouldn't count he tries the chidori stab first.

I am not sure, but the fight can end quick for both. If it extends, Sasuke would've already been forced to use Amaterasu.

Aside from that, and admitting that nothing comes to my head to how a fight between Mei and Sasuke woulg do out, just that Sasuke should win more times than not, i will move on to Onoki.

Onoki should be capable of killing Sasuke here. Unless, of course, he uses Amaterasu first. But this Sasuke blocks everything with Susano'o. In the blink of an eye, he will be telling Itachi how he didn't know he die. He was just there, blocking a "simple attack" with his almighty Susano'o, but after that, he didn't know what happened.


----------



## Turrin (May 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When he is fighting Itachi.


Nope it's just that pretty much any Kage can win an attrition war against Sick-Itachi. He's not built for that kind of fight.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Nope it's just that pretty much any Kage can win an attrition war against Sick-Itachi. He's not built for that kind of fight.



To win a battle of attrition, they need to avoid or defeat stage 4 Susano'o. 
How is A accomplishing it if he isn't constantly spamming V2 ?


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> To win a battle of attrition, they need to avoid or defeat stage 4 Susano'o.
> How is A accomplishing it if he isn't constantly spamming V2 ?



 Even if Ei can, it's the fact that Ei must continuously charge up an immense amount of Chakra (which takes time) for continuous Shunshin, so Ei isn't going to be able to evade it with continuous V2 Shunshin.

 Whether or not he can evade Itachi's V4 Susano'o at all is debatable.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Even if Ei can, it's the fact that Ei must continuously charge up an immense amount of Chakra (which takes time) for continuous Shunshin, so Ei isn't going to be able to evade it with continuous V2 Shunshin.
> 
> Whether or not he can evade Itachi's V4 Susano'o at all is debatable.



Thats my line of thinking as well. I'm just asking Turrin how A can constantly evade Itachi unless he is constantly spamming his V2 ?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 24, 2015)

Ei was the only ninja on the 5 Kage squad who never got a panel of Tsunade refilling their chakra.  His dad fought for 3 days straight, and he has bijuu stores.  There aren't many non-Senju non-Uzumaki non-jinchuuriki who can compete with him in terms of stamina.

I personally think he amps his chakra to bijuu levels to increase his reflexes to the max, and so that he can use successive shunshins.  It's a burst, yeah, but it's not a one and done thing like early gates.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I have no idea why people claim hebi fought smarter than MS sasuke
> 
> the only time hebi fought smart was against itachi. who btw is the only character he has fought who he had almost full knowledge on
> 
> everyone else and I mean everyone else since part 2 he uses shunshin and gets in close for cqc. its at this point he laughably dies against tsunade



His entire fight with Deidara was filled with multi-layered contingency plans. Sasuke went with what worked - which was speed-blitzing - and when that ceased to be a viable option, he quickly adapted to a new set of strategies backed up with very well thought out counters and back ups. 

Taka Sasuke had smart showings in places; the use of enton to get around Ei's blatant superiority in close combat or his clever genjutsu against Danzō are good examples. The difference is that a lot of the natural cunning and caution he had back when he had to fight opponents above his weight class was replaced by complacency and misplaced confidence in his new power. I think his fight with Kirābī and Ei speak for themselves. 

As far as the gauntlet goes, I think he beats: Mei, possibly Ōnoki and possibly Jiraiya. The distance favours him a lot for those three; the former two don't have any good close quarter feats and I could see Jiraiya getting caught off guard by his speed. 

I think everybody else would beat him. He has no sure way of putting Tsunade down, Gaara's portrayal tags him at a far higher standing than Taka Sasuke, he already lost to Bee under far more favourable conditions, and his mangekyō doesn't really compensate for the all around superiority of Hebi Sasuke.


----------



## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

sorry and MS sasuke didn't have multi-layered plans against danzo?
because he did 

hebi and MS have 1thing in common they rush at the enemy always

again nothing is more stupid than rushing at 2 akatsuki members when you have no idea what they can do

by all accounts MS sasuke was smarter


----------

