# Minato vs. Nagato



## ATastyMuffin (Jan 29, 2013)

*Location:* Konoha Crater
*Mindset:* IC
*Restrictions:* None
*Distance:* 30 metres
*Knowledge:* None

Nagato is healthy. Go.


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## raizen28 (Jan 29, 2013)

Starting Distance and Knowledge plz.


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## raizen28 (Jan 29, 2013)

Wonder what a Minato Rasengan to the face will do.
If Minato exploits that 5 interval.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Jan 29, 2013)

Does Nagato have mobility, or is he crippled? And is this Nagato before or after he absorbed chakra from Bee? I'm assuming he's not an Edo.


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## Ersa (Jan 29, 2013)

raizen28 said:


> Wonder what a Minato Rasengan to the face will do.
> If Minato exploits that 5 interval.


Preta would come in handy for that. Nagato didn't use his hands for Naruto's rasengan.

With Rinnegan sensing and summons I don't think Minato will blitz Nagato. 

Chibaku Tensei will be fairly useless here as Minato can escape it by throwing a kunai and using Hirashin. Knowledge is important, no knowledge favours Nagato a bit as Minato will not know about the 5 second interval for ST or the invisible charmeleon.

Leaning towards Nagato here.


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## Thunder (Jan 30, 2013)

Nagato is stronger than Minato in my opinion. But what condition is Nagato in here?


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## katanalauncher (Jan 30, 2013)

Minato gets a kunai shoved up his ass.



Wait a minute, if he uses Hiraishin would he teleport inside his own ass?


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Jan 30, 2013)

katanalauncher said:


> Minato gets a kunai shoved up his ass.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait a minute, if he uses Hiraishin would he teleport inside his own ass?


Ignoring the improbability of Minato getting a kunai shoved up his ass, why would he teleport to a kunai on his own person in the first place...?


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## Joakim3 (Jan 30, 2013)

How many Kunai does Minato have, and is Nagato allowed to summon his _Pein Rikudo_?


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## Bonly (Jan 30, 2013)

I'd favor Nagato more times then not. Preta path makes it so no rasengan's shall be touching Nagato, animal path allows Nagato to summon the dog which makes almost all of Minato's summonings useless as well as give Nagato more sight and allow him to stay up high in the skies out of Minato's reach. Deva path makes it so Minato gets thrown like a ragdoll when he gets close as well a move any Kunai near Nagato.


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## puma21 (Jan 30, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Preta would come in handy for that. Nagato didn't use his hands for Naruto's rasengan.
> 
> With Rinnegan sensing and summons I don't think Minato will blitz Nagato.
> 
> ...



About chibaku tensei, it would wipe out the whole area around the fight so Minato would be unable to ftg back or end up stuck between the rocks. Doesn't running away count as a forfeit?


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## RBL (Jan 30, 2013)

if you are talking about prime nagato, even if he is non-edo i'd go with nagato, since nagato is a semi-god with the rinnengan, minato it is just a genious guy.

nagato has gedo mazo, rinnengan with all his attacks.


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## ImSerious (Jan 30, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This pretty much sums it up.


/thread


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## egressmadara (Jan 30, 2013)

His main body? If so, then a massive-scale Shinra Tensei ends this pretty quickly.


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## 2Broken (Jan 30, 2013)

LOL Nagato wins; unless Minato gets new feats.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 31, 2013)

No knowledge dictates an edge for Minato, as he rarely holds back on any of his techniques save summoning against even the weakest of opponents, this generally because he is a one-trick pony and is utterly useless without seal warping. Nagato on the other hand has immense versatility. 

Nagato is highly egotistical, his mentality is that of a sulking God. Against a random opponent without knowledge he likely goes directly for the rod kill, and subsequently is surprised by the shunshin speed and tag by Minato, therefore ending in a kunai in Nagato's back. The speed of Minato's killing and the fact that Nagato is surely vulnerable to surprise attacks and the shock factor equate really no chance for an ST in time. There's generally no way Nagato's mind stays focused enough to prepare a Shinra Tensei if the man he engages in close quarters suddenly is much faster than he expected and disappears after physically contacting him. There are few in the verse that are mentally trained that well to immediately react in that situation. Obito failed even with detailed knowledge of Minato's warping speed, he choked when his advances failed and lost as a result mainly because his mindset was that of "This is my master, I'm just a kid, I can't believe I forgot about the kunai warping through me, I thought I had him, I'm fucked," and he was defeated because he was thinking this instead of countering in time.  

Nagato is a near impossible matchup for Minato, sadly that's only valid when Nagato has detailed knowledge as his behavior throughout the manga is that of a man holding back against opponents he knew to be highly dangerous. Engaging in combat with Preta Path against Naruto, taking Sharingan Kakashi 1 on 1 with a weakened Deva Path and deciding to blitz with Asura Path instead of lasering Tsunade are all solid examples of Nagato underestimating his opponents and remaining confident in his taijutsu as a means of primary combat. There's also the obvious fact that most of the fan base understands Nagato to be a highly arrogant psychotic blood thirsty sourpuss. He fights only to kill and cause pain. His character remains his biggest downfall, and Minato is likely the best man to take advantage of it.

Minato, 10/10 low difficulty tag and stabbing.


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## Ersa (Jan 31, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> No knowledge dictates an edge for Minato, as he rarely holds back on any of his techniques save summoning against even the weakest of opponents, this generally because he is a one-trick pony and is utterly useless without seal warping. Nagato on the other hand has immense versatility.
> 
> Nagato is highly egotistical, his mentality is that of a sulking God. Against a random opponent without knowledge he likely goes directly for the rod kill, and subsequently is surprised by the shunshin speed and tag by Minato, therefore ending in a kunai in Nagato's back. The speed of Minato's killing and the fact that Nagato is surely vulnerable to surprise attacks and the shock factor equate really no chance for an ST in time. There's generally no way Nagato's mind stays focused enough to prepare a Shinra Tensei if the man he engages in close quarters suddenly is much faster than he expected and disappears after physically contacting him. There are few in the verse that are mentally trained that well to immediately react in that situation. Obito failed even with detailed knowledge of Minato's warping speed, he choked when his advances failed and lost as a result mainly because his mindset was that of "This is my master, I'm just a kid, I can't believe I forgot about the kunai warping through me, I thought I had him, I'm fucked," and he was defeated because he was thinking this instead of countering in time.
> 
> ...


And you don't think it's possible Nagato will defend with Shinra Tensei or use Asura Path to catch the kunai. With Rinnegan sensing and his reacting to FRS from short distance I can't see Minato straight up blitzing.

Surely you don't think Minato can stomp Nagato? They are on the same tier at least


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 31, 2013)

> And you don't think it's possible Nagato will defend with Shinra Tensei or use Asura Path to catch the kunai. With Rinnegan sensing and his reacting to FRS from short distance I can't see Minato straight up blitzing.


I explained the Shinra Tensei.

As far as sensing goes, Nagato needed shared vision to avoid a blindside by Killer Bee, and his sensory has failed in the past when Naruto blitzed path after path with feint trickery. His sensory failed when Kakashi intercepted Deva's rod thrust on Iruka. His sensory failed when Kakashi and Choji/Chojuro blindsided him with chains. It also failed when Preta was nearly gangbanged by a hundred Naruto clones disguised as boulders in an ambushing position. Granted those were his paths and he was miles away, a lively Nagato showcased no valid sensing ability when Itachi eliminated the shared vision on his summons and blitzed with his Susano to disallow the deaths of Naruto and Killer Bee. His sensing is ineffective in CQC and is likely only generalized as far as dictating chakra levels and numbers of opponents when concentrating. Like a dog, his sensory ability can lead him to the generalized position of the opponent, but understanding where that opponent is at all times can only be done through sight. The only sensor that comes close to visually pinpointing where their opponent is in high speed combat is Naruto with the Malice Detection, while Kabuto is a close second. 

Asura arms out of his back to grab an instant porting Minato wouldn't work in my observation, even if he knew he was there, Minato could and would react to the arms and alter his movement to ensure he still got the stab, outside of simply porting above and throwing the kunai into Nagato's head. He ocularly reacts to the likes of V2 A in CQC and is casually labeled as the fastest reactor in the manga. Unless you think an arm is stemming from his head to catch the kunai Nagato is at a loss. 

More importantly, in my original statement I wrote in detail exactly why Nagato wouldn't be able to react in time, whether it be ST or Asura Arms, and it deals with a surprised shock factor. 



> Surely you don't think Minato can stomp Nagato? They are on the same tier at least


Of course not, but with these stipulations Nagato is willingly walking into death.


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## Joakim3 (Jan 31, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> As far as sensing goes, Nagato needed shared vision to avoid a blindside by Killer Bee, and his *sensory has failed* in the past when Naruto blitzed path after path with feint trickery. His *sensory failed when Kakashi intercepted Deva's rod thrust on Iruka*. His *sensory failed when Kakashi and Choji/Chojuro* blindsided him with chains. *It also failed when Preta was nearly gangbanged by a hundred Naruto clones disguised as boulders in an ambushing position*.



Nagato senses through his _Pein Rikudo_ using _Ujizokai no Jutsu_, we don't know if he can or choose not to utilize his person sensing through them

Asuming he can, in those scenario's Nagato was 10's of km away from Konoha in the mountains, he isn't SM Naruto or at least the concentration of using the Paths doesn't allow him to focus on sensing 



DaVizWiz said:


> Granted those were his paths and he was miles away, a lively Nagato showcased no valid sensing ability when Itachi eliminated the shared vision on his summons and blitzed with his Susano to disallow the deaths of Naruto and Killer Bee.



Nagato has to willingly sense? It's not passive like Mu or SM Naruto. He clearly sensed the buildup of _Amaterasu_ when he choose to, it's just the last thing he expected was Itachi using it on him (and being an Edo he can't attack other Edo's)

Nagato could not sense under Kabuto's control.... again it's not passive like Mu's, Kabuto would have to physically make Nagato sense something thats impossible as the former had no idea the later could sense



DaVizWiz said:


> His sensing is ineffective in CQC and is likely only generalized as far as dictating chakra levels and numbers of opponents when concentrating. Like a dog, his sensory ability can lead him to the generalized position of the opponent, but understanding where that opponent is at all times can only be done through sight. The only sensor that comes close to visually pinpointing where their opponent is in high speed combat is Naruto with the Malice Detection, while Kabuto is a close second.



He was able to pinpoint Kabuto to within several meters from 10's upon 10's of km through barriers, I'd say he could pin point someone if he focused enough



DaVizWiz said:


> Asura arms out of his back to grab an instant porting Minato wouldn't work in my observation, even if he knew he was there, Minato could and would react to the arms and alter his movement to ensure he still got the stab, outside of simply porting above and throwing the kunai into Nagato's head. He ocularly reacts to the likes of V2 A in CQC and is casually labeled as the fastest reactor in the manga. Unless you think an arm is stemming from his head to catch the kunai Nagato is at a loss.



Agree with this



DaVizWiz said:


> More importantly, in my original statement I wrote in detail exactly why Nagato wouldn't be able to react in time, whether it be ST or Asura Arms, and it deals with a surprised shock factor.



Wait..... Nagato can't react to _Hirashin_...... with ST? 

Last time I checked _Hirashin_ is instant, not Minato swinging his arms 



DaVizWiz said:


> Of course not, but with these stipulations Nagato is willingly walking into death.



These stipulations also means Minato has zero knowledge on Nagato.... He'd be _Hirashin_ straight into _Fujutsu Kuyin_ and a lethal ST. Oh and the side fact IC Nagato immediately flies and summon Cerberus both of which massively gimp Minato's effectiveness


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 31, 2013)

> Nagato has to willingly sense? It's not passive like Mu or SM Naruto. He clearly sensed the buildup of _Amaterasu_ when he choose to, it's just the last thing he expected was Itachi using it on him (and being an Edo he can't attack other Edo's)


Which is why I said his sensory is limited to his concentration and mainly detects chakra buildup. The person I was addressing commented that Nagato's sensory could pick up an instant warping Minato without previous knowledge, who in this scenario, would certainly be just as unexpected as Itachi attacking in the manga. He failed there, he fails here. 



> Nagato could not sense under Kabuto's control.... again it's not passive like Mu's, Kabuto would have to physically make Nagato sense something thats impossible as the former had no idea the later could sense


This is a falsity, he clearly sensed Naruto's position as Itachi carried him to that destination. He also sensed Itachi's chakra buildup. His auto plane mode doesn't shut off Nagato's ability to sense his opponent, he's simply controlling Nagato's motives by choosing when to move into CQC or use a specific Jutsu. 

You have really no evidence suggesting even if he concentrated, with knowledge, that he could pick up on Minato's warped position before he struck him with the kunai. It's truly a hail mary for you at this point. 



> He was able to pinpoint Kabuto to within several meters from 10's upon 10's of km through barriers, I'd say he could pin point someone if he focused enough


Naruto pinpointed Nagato's location from a similar standpoint, does that mean he's capable of detecting an instant warping Minato without knowledge that he warped before Minato cuts his head off? Tits no. 



> Wait..... Nagato can't react to _Hirashin_...... with ST?


Indeed. 



> Last time I checked _Hirashin_ is instant, not Minato swinging his arms


Did you read both of my posts? The logic is clear as day. If you honestly believe a Nagato without knowledge is avoiding the shock factor of an opponent suddenly disappearing in front of his eyes and choosing to release a 360 degree ST as a means of counter before Minato slashes him for no apparent reason other than the fairy tale that he somehow senses him behind him before being slashed then I can't help you. 

There's generally no chance this man gathers his thoughts and is completely mentally unaffected by a man disappearing instantly in front of his eyes quick enough to release chakra to push Minato back far enough before this dude slashes him with a shunshin arm burst whilst still being entirely unaware of the fact he's now behind him. 

My argument
Nagato: "Shit, this dude just disappeared, is it Genjuts-" DEAD. 

Your argument
Nagato: "Shit, this dude just disappeared in front of me, could be Genjutsu, fuck it somehow I know he's behind me Imma use Shinr-" DEAD. 

Either way, he's dead! 



> These stipulations also means Minato has zero knowledge on Nagato.... He'd be _Hirashin_ straight into _Fujutsu Kuyin_ and a lethal ST.


Did you not read any of my points in my posts? 

You might be retarded if you think Nagato without knowledge is using ST on anyone. Referencing Preta absorption was probably the dumbest thing I've seen thus far as Minato is highly more likely to physically attack with a kunai or lethal knee than to use a Rasengan that wouldn't be absorbed anyway, as again, Nagato wouldn't know he was behind him.


> Oh and the side fact IC Nagato immediately flies and summon Cerberus both of which massively gimp Minato's effectiveness


IC healthy Nagato without knowledge is summoning bird and Cerberus? LOL DA FUCK


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## narutoish (Jan 31, 2013)

nagato would win against minato, because shared vision is a very good counter to FTG, his summons are better then minato's, few shinra tensei's could very well finish minato off.


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## Joakim3 (Jan 31, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Which is why I said his sensory is limited to his concentration and mainly detects chakra buildup. The person I was addressing commented that Nagato's sensory could pick up an instant warping Minato without previous knowledge, who in this scenario, would certainly be just as unexpected as Itachi attacking in the manga. He failed there, he fails here.



Ok great yes I am 100% positive Nagato can't track Minato through sensing... That's what he has shared vision for?



DaVizWiz said:


> This is a falsity, he clearly sensed Naruto's position as Itachi carried him to that destination. He also sensed Itachi's chakra buildup. His auto plane mode doesn't shut off Nagato's ability to sense his opponent, he's simply controlling Nagato's motives by choosing when to move into CQC or use a specific Jutsu.



Nagato was in CONTROL OF HIS MIND...

Nagato could not sense when it was him vs. Itachi, Naruto & Killer B as Kabuto wiped out his mind and took direct control over his body. Nagato has the ability to sense in the same why I have the ability to pee, if the person controlling us doesn't let me use or doesnt know I have the ability it becomes irrelevant 



DaVizWiz said:


> You have really no evidence suggesting even if he concentrated, with knowledge, that he could pick up on Minato's warped position before he struck him with the kunai. It's truly a hail mary for you at this point.



I didn't see that your where referring to Minato's teleporting, and no Nagato can't track that



DaVizWiz said:


> Naruto pinpointed Nagato's location from a similar standpoint, does that mean he's capable of detecting an instant warping Minato without knowledge that he warped before Minato cuts his head off? Tits no.



Again read above ^



DaVizWiz said:


> Indeed.



You meen how Killer B intercepted Minato mid strike, _Shinra Tensei_ is the fastest technique next to _Hirashin_ 



DaVizWiz said:


> Did you read both of my posts? The logic is clear as day. If you honestly believe a Nagato without knowledge is avoiding the shock factor of an opponent suddenly disappearing in front of his eyes and choosing to release a 360 degree ST as a means of counter before Minato slashes him for no apparent reason other than the fairy tale that he somehow senses him behind him before being slashed then I can't help you.



If he has shared vision there won't be a shock factor as his summons will auto see Minato? IC that's the first thing he does what aren't you getting about this?



DaVizWiz said:


> There's generally no chance this man gathers his thoughts and is completely mentally unaffected by a man disappearing instantly in front of his eyes quick enough to release chakra to push Minato back far enough before this dude slashes him with a shunshin arm burst whilst still being entirely unaware of the fact he's now behind him.



Minato still has to scatter the the kunai and then still throw one in Nagato general location.... And he can do all of that before Nagato summons the 3-legged Bird & Cerberus?

Again Killer B who is less reflexive than a half dying Nagato was capable of anticipating Minato's next _Hirashin_ jump, Nagato is not going to be shocked and awed let alone with shared vision



DaVizWiz said:


> My argument
> Nagato: "Shit, this dude just disappeared, is it Genjuts-" DEAD.



No your argument is Minato scatters kunai, throws one at Nagato and blitzes his head off before Nagato makes a thought process.... which is stupid



DaVizWiz said:


> Your argument
> Nagato: "Shit, this dude just disappeared in front of me, could be Genjutsu, fuck it somehow I know he's behind me Imma use Shinr-" DEAD.
> 
> Either way, he's dead!



My argument is Minato throws kuani to scatter them (while Nagato simultaneously summons for shared vision) Minato throws a Kunai and teleports behind Nagato at which point shared vision sees this (as does Nagato) and Minato is crushed by an instant _Shinra Tensei_ he can't react to 



DaVizWiz said:


> Did you not read any of my points in my posts?



I did and they are full of "shock and awe" and Minato casually blitzing top tiers with zero knowledge on their abilities 



DaVizWiz said:


> You might be retarded if you think Nagato without knowledge is using ST on anyone. Referencing Preta absorption was probably the dumbest thing I've seen thus far as Minato is highly more likely to physically attack with a kunai or lethal knee than to use a Rasengan that wouldn't be absorbed anyway, as again, Nagato wouldn't know he was behind him.



Nagato is not going to use ST because he doesn't have knowledge...... your kidding right.... and you call me retarded 

Minato IC went for _Rasengan_ against Obito and only when's for the kunai slash after he tagged him. If Nagato had shared vision up the is no tagging. Yes he will see Minato (whether he is next, above, behind or under him) what aren't you getting about that?



DaVizWiz said:


> IC healthy Nagato without knowledge is summoning bird and Cerberus? LOL DA FUCK



He does it for shared vision and did it against Naruto & Killer B.... who he had now knowledge on (save for SM abilities )


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 31, 2013)

> Ok great yes I am 100% positive Nagato can't track Minato through sensing... That's what he has shared vision for?


Shared vision? How will that help him in character? Surely you don't expect summons or his paths in this simulation? 



> Nagato was in CONTROL OF HIS MIND...


Right...



> Nagato could not sense when it was him vs. Itachi, Naruto & Killer B as Kabuto wiped out his mind and took direct control over his body. Nagato has the ability to sense in the same why I have the ability to pee, if the person controlling us doesn't let me use or doesnt know I have the ability it becomes irrelevant


You're basically just guessing at this point. You really have no evidence suggesting how Nagato senses and your running with an excuse that is completely irrelevant to the fact Nagato has never utilized CQC sensory, making your point mute anyway. Why are we still debating this? 



> You meen how Killer B intercepted Minato mid strike, _Shinra Tensei_ is the fastest technique next to _Hirashin_


Intercepted mid strike? The manga panel began with both parties holding a weapon to each other. You have no evidence suggesting Bee didn't already have the weapon prepared for Minato. 

What you fail to understand here is Minato could have ported back in front and slashed Bee's throat with little difficulty, and more importantly, Bee had knowledge on Minato's technique and wasn't in the least bit surprised when he disappeared because he knew the only logical place he could be since he wasn't around A was behind the next big threat, himself. 

Nagato without knowledge is suddenly preparing a rod to ensure his opponent doesn't appear behind him? 



> If he has shared vision there won't be a shock factor as his summons will auto see Minato? IC that's the first thing he does what aren't you getting about this?


Why would he summon against an opponent without knowledge if he's fully healthy? 



> Minato still has to scatter the the kunai and then still throw one in Nagato general location.... And he can do all of that before Nagato summons the 3-legged Bird & Cerberus?


What do you mean? Minato likely reacts to Nagato's initial blitz with his own shunshin and lands a tag, from that point the battle is now over as Minato won't wait around to battle an opponent who is shunshining on his level with strange oculars. 



> Again Killer B who is less reflexive than a half dying Nagato was capable of anticipating Minato's next _Hirashin_ jump, Nagato is not going to be shocked and awed let alone with shared vision


Shared vision is invalid, he won't summon.



> No your argument is Minato scatters kunai, throws one at Nagato and blitzes his head off before Nagato makes a thought process.... which is stupid


My argument is simple, a man disappears from Nagato's view and Nagato freaks, unable to think of a logical counter as he's too busy stressing about whether he's in a Genjutsu, in the meantime Minato has already stabbed him in the neck. 



> My argument is Minato throws kuani to scatter them (while Nagato simultaneously summons for shared vision) Minato throws a Kunai and teleports behind Nagato at which point shared vision sees this (as does Nagato) and Minato is crushed by an instant _Shinra Tensei_ he can't react to


Why would Minato scatter kuani against an opponent without knowledge? It's more likely he waits for his opponent to attack him and counters with a shunshin or a tag. Minato didn't scatter kunai when Kakashi failed to blitz his opponent, he shunshined and tagged the opponent. 



> Nagato is not going to use ST because he doesn't have knowledge...... your kidding right.... and you call me retarded


Not at all? Nagato, staring through life with the eyes of the Sage himself decides he wants to use ST on a random fodder blocking his path? What logic dictates Nagato using gravity bursts instead of rod blitzing? 



> Minato IC went for _Rasengan_ against Obito and only when's for the kunai slash after he tagged him. If Nagato had shared vision up the is no tagging. Yes he will see Minato (whether he is next, above, behind or under him) what aren't you getting about that?


Minato also sliced through a massive tentacle, opted to knee A and drew a kunai on Bee. He prefers cutting and heavy blows to Rasengan, mainly because it's overkill. More importantly, Minato came out of his warp cycle with Rasengan already prepped, his choice of whether or not to stab Nagato or obliterate him with Rasengan is irrelevant, he dies either way. 



> He does it for shared vision and did it against Naruto & Killer B.... who he had now knowledge on (save for SM abilities )


Killer Bee and Naruto were profiled and targeted by the Akatsuki and Nagato himself, he fought Naruto, and it was clear he knew both to be harboring tailed beast. More importantly, he was crippled and slower than Naruto in CQC, it was common sense to fly above and avoid CQC. 

Nagato is healthy here, has NO knowledge whatsoever and has only summoned against opponents he knew to be highly dangerous.


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## Rocky (Jan 31, 2013)

Joakim,

Minato was able to strike Sharingan Obito before he could activate Kamui and, if not for Bee, Ei in his amped up Ration cloak.

Unlesse you believe Nagato can activate Shinra Tensei before Obito can utilize Kamui, or the Raikage can _move,_ then all Minato needs to do here is get a Kunai behind Nagato to take this.


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## Joakim3 (Jan 31, 2013)

Rocky915 said:


> Joakim,
> 
> Minato was able to strike Sharingan Obito before he could activate Kamui and, if not for Bee, Ei in his amped up Ration cloak.
> 
> Unlesse you believe Nagato can activate Shinra Tensei before Obito can utilize Kamui, or the Raikage can _move,_ then all Minato needs to do here is get a Kunai behind Nagato to take this.



That's the problem.... _Shinra Tensei_ activation has in all technical purposes been "instant" (or as a damn close as one can be)


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## ImSerious (Jan 31, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> That's the problem.... _Shinra Tensei_ activation has in all technical purposes been "instant" (or as a damn close as one can be)



Kn6 physically reacted to ST.


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## Dr. White (Jan 31, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I'd favor Nagato more times then not. Preta path makes it so no rasengan's shall be touching Nagato, animal path allows Nagato to summon the dog which makes almost all of Minato's summonings useless as well as give Nagato more sight and allow him to stay up high in the skies out of Minato's reach. Deva path makes it so Minato gets thrown like a ragdoll when he gets close as well a move any Kunai near Nagato.



I agree with this and Bonly didn't even mention Nagato's sensing, ability to soul rip if Minato gets near him, or his multitude of other summons besides Cerberus and the Bird. Problem is Minato is so good in every stat except Offensive Ninjutsu(and genjutsu but that's irrelevant) which he has Rasengan and Kunai under his belt. I give it to Nagato High Diff 8/10 times.


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## Joakim3 (Jan 31, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Kn6 physically reacted to ST.



How many times are we going to go over this 

Tendo used _Shinra Tensei_, KN6 was *hit*, and *then* anchored it's self to prevent itself from moving. It did not anchor itself *before* _Shinra Tensei_ made contact with it (which would then be a reaction feat) 

Thats like saying I _reacted_ to a bullet when I put my arms up after it went through my chest


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## Joakim3 (Jan 31, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Shared vision? How will that help him in character? Surely you don't expect summons or his paths in this simulation?
> 
> Right...



Why would they not be? in every single fight whether Nagato was using his paths or himself he's summoned and utilized shared vision 



DaVizWiz said:


> You're basically just guessing at this point. You really have no evidence suggesting how Nagato senses and your running with an excuse that is completely irrelevant to the fact Nagato has never utilized CQC sensory, making your point mute anyway. Why are we still debating this?



Guess? No i'm not....... He does not have passive sensing as Itachi wouldn't have blindsided him nor would he have been stabbed by Totsuka. Nagato has to focus to sense

Again I already said Nagato can't use sensing for CqC purposes? He only uses it to anticipate chakra buildups and his opponents locations



DaVizWiz said:


> Intercepted mid strike? The manga panel began with both parties holding a weapon to each other. You have no evidence suggesting Bee didn't already have the weapon prepared for Minato.



Killer B intercepted Minato's _Hirashin_ attempt on Ei?



DaVizWiz said:


> What you fail to understand here is Minato could have ported back in front and slashed Bee's throat with little difficulty, and more importantly, Bee had knowledge on Minato's technique and wasn't in the least bit surprised when he disappeared because he knew the only logical place he could be since he wasn't around A was behind the next big threat, himself.



Thats fine he could have killed Ei & Killer B? They are completely different than Nagato? Neither have shared vision to cover their blindspots and neither of them have an attack thats literally as fast a _Hirashin_



DaVizWiz said:


> Nagato without knowledge is suddenly preparing a rod to ensure his opponent doesn't appear behind him?



It's a safety precaution he ALWAYS uses? IC whether it be his _Pein Rikudo_ or himself he summons, no knowledge or with full



DaVizWiz said:


> Why would he summon against an opponent without knowledge if he's fully healthy?



Becuase IC he does that with every opponent? Thats how he fights.... Second if you have ZERO knowledge on a opponent why would you take *less precautions* then normal 



DaVizWiz said:


> What do you mean? Minato likely reacts to Nagato's initial blitz with his own shunshin and lands a tag, from that point the battle is now over as Minato won't wait around to battle an opponent who is shunshining on his level with strange oculars.
> 
> Shared vision is invalid, he won't summon.



When has Nagato EVER blitzed anyone (even when using a HIGHLY mobile _Pein Rikudo_)? 

You entire thesis is filled with dilution right now, your literally trying to convince me Nagato is going to attempt to *blitz a person* with no knowledge...... i.e the most OoC action he's ever done



DaVizWiz said:


> My argument is simple, a man disappears from Nagato's view and Nagato freaks, unable to think of a logical counter as he's too busy stressing about whether he's in a Genjutsu, in the meantime Minato has already stabbed him in the neck.



Yes..... because Ei saw Minato _Hirashin_ and dropped on his knees and pray for mercy. The man immediately tried to take his head off the next chance he got

You think a man like Nagato (disregarding his arrogance) who has spent the last 30+ years of his life in a literal war zone, is going to freak (especially seeing he'd have shared vision) on someone teleporting when he casually sees Obito doing all the time?



DaVizWiz said:


> Why would Minato scatter kuani against an opponent without knowledge? It's more likely he waits for his opponent to attack him and counters with a shunshin or a tag. Minato didn't scatter kunai when Kakashi failed to blitz his opponent, he shunshined and tagged the opponent.



He scattered his Kunai against Ei & Killer B........ both who he had no knowledge off (other than one being Raikage and the other being Gyuki's Jin).

Minato blitzed a fooder....... Not to a Kage & Jin. You think he'll be any less cautious against a Rin'negan user, the last thing he'll attempt is blitz with zero knowledge?

If your going to debate for a character, at least research them and understand how they operate IC



DaVizWiz said:


> Not at all? Nagato, staring through life with the eyes of the Sage himself decides he wants to use ST on a random fodder blocking his path? What logic dictates Nagato using gravity bursts instead of rod blitzing?



Becuase Nagato IC used _Shinra Tensei_ on fodder as he was a nutjob with severe emotional issues? 

Again when has Nagato ever IC blitzed someone. The only time he did that was against Hanzo (and that was purely to save Konan) and the latter under Kabuto's control to take out Killer B 



DaVizWiz said:


> Minato also sliced through a massive tentacle, opted to knee A and drew a kunai on Bee. He prefers cutting and heavy blows to Rasengan, mainly because it's overkill. More importantly, Minato came out of his warp cycle with Rasengan already prepped, his choice of whether or not to stab Nagato or obliterate him with Rasengan is irrelevant, he dies either way.



Before or after he is crushed with a _Shinra Tensei_? The second Nagato shared vision sees him (which it will), ST is following...... and _Shinra Tensei_ will hit Minato before Minato's kunai or _Rasengan_ hit Nagato



DaVizWiz said:


> Killer Bee and Naruto were profiled and targeted by the Akatsuki and Nagato himself, he fought Naruto, and it was clear he knew both to be harboring tailed beast. More importantly, he was crippled and slower than Naruto in CQC, it was common sense to fly above and avoid CQC.



Then please explain his _Pein Rikudo_? They are faster and stronger than 95% of the characters physically and Nagato still never opted to blitz anyone with them..... and thats with 6 damn bodies at his disposal. 

He always summons first to test out the users abilities and then proceeds to muller them with rin'negan hax



DaVizWiz said:


> Nagato is healthy here, has NO knowledge whatsoever and has only summoned against opponents he knew to be highly dangerous.



Which is fine, and even with no knowledge against fodders, a full set of _Pein Rikudo_ (who combined are top tier in CqC) still opts to never blitz

Just stop..... with this Nagato blitzing fantasy


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## Shinryu (Jan 31, 2013)

Nagato has no five second interval to my knowledge in fact i believe the internal had something to do with supplying Deva Path with alot of his chakra and exhausting it once used and if your gonna pull the RM Naruto fight that was CIS.Asura Path gives Nagato the ability to LITERALLY CREATE LASERS AND MISSILES FROM HIS BODY and spawn six arms to guard taijutsu attacks from Minato.Human Path means all he needs to do is grab you then soulfuck you and he still has Gedo Masou to instantly soulfuck Minato.Minato cant damage GM so once its summoned he dead.
On the otherhand Minato needs to tag him once then launch point blank rasengans in his vital points since Nagato looks like a starving man to be honest.He could warp away the missiles ONLY with ST Barrier since the lasers are lasers lightspeed basically and warp the Chibaku Tensei sphere on Nagato.Minato is smart he would wait for Nagato to use Shinra Tensei to exhaust his chakra then kill him in a flash since he could just warp out of the range of the gravity blast then return back to Nagato and strike him hard.If it gets to the point where he gets desperate and uses Shiki Fujin to seal him but then again thats stalemate


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 1, 2013)

> Why would they not be? in every single fight whether Nagato was using his paths or himself he's summoned and utilized shared vision


In every single fight he's had detailed knowledge on opponents and he never summoned on anyone below S-rank in the manga.



> Guess? No i'm not....... He does not have passive sensing as Itachi wouldn't have blindsided him nor would he have been stabbed by Totsuka. Nagato has to focus to sense


Again, entirely irrelevant to this debate as he doesn't have time to focus, nor would he avoid the shock factor quick enough to begin sensing. 



> Again I already said Nagato can't use sensing for CqC purposes? He only uses it to anticipate chakra buildups and his opponents locations


Which, like above, makes this topic pointless, let us drop it please. 



> Killer B intercepted Minato's _Hirashin_ attempt on Ei?


What your saying isn't canon. You have no evidence suggesting he physically reacted to the port and swung his blade round before Minato attempted a kill shot. More importantly, Bee had knowledge on Minato's technique, was already armed, and knew the only place he could be was behind him. 



> Thats fine he could have killed Ei & Killer B? They are completely different than Nagato? Neither have shared vision to cover their blindspots and neither of them have an attack thats literally as fast a _Hirashin_


Shared vision is invalid, he won't summon. Stop fucking around, ST was dodged by KM Naruto in the manga. It is not instant in thought or performance, it is not literally as fast as something instant. 

All logic leads to ST not being used in the first place. Nagato unable to mentally gather himself in time to even begin to think to use ST as a man just disappeared in front of him and the logic that Minato would surely kill him before ST was released, your pushing a hail mary here dude. 



> It's a safety precaution he ALWAYS uses? IC whether it be his _Pein Rikudo_ or himself he summons, no knowledge or with full


What are you talking about? Are you suggesting the Bringer of death and life Nagato is going to summon colossal giants against a random fodder blocking his path?



> Becuase IC he does that with every opponent? Thats how he fights.... Second if you have ZERO knowledge on a opponent why would you take *less precautions* then normal


Because his persona is that of a God? Because he has nothing to fear against 99% of the narutoverse? Because, like in my original post, he has blindly walked into ambushes and underestimated his opponents even with knowledge in the past? This while he was attacking an entire village and half dead. A healthy Nagato against a single fodder will NEVER start with a summon. 



> When has Nagato EVER blitzed anyone (even when using a HIGHLY mobile _Pein Rikudo_)?


He blitzed Bee half crippled? His shunshin speed is high level and his reaction speed is top tier. The manga visually dictates he prefers taijutsu as a primary through the use of his paths, I provided examples in my first post on this topic. 



> You entire thesis is filled with dilution right now, your literally trying to convince me Nagato is going to attempt to *blitz a person* with no knowledge...... i.e the most OoC action he's ever done


You need to slow your role dude. It's evident you're a fan of Nagato and rightfully so, but in these conditions it's absurd to think Nagato survives 3 seconds against Minato. 



> Yes..... because Ei saw Minato _Hirashin_ and dropped on his knees and pray for mercy. The man immediately tried to take his head off the next chance he got


He had previous knowledge of his technique and knew him to be the Hokage. What does Nagato know here? Nothing. Why did you even type this? 

Nagato is suddenly mentally stronger than the dominant battle hardened A? Nagato's mental psyche is that of a 13 year old school girl post-rape compared to A. 

More notably, A showed signs of stress when he realized his initial blitz was ineffective, and he could not recover before the knee hit him. Obito did the same, he instead received a Rasengan. This was with knowledge. The pissing the pants unable to think clause will occur here in Nagato's mind, it's unavoidable, especially with his egomaniac, "I can't be touched" godly persona shattering in full view.  



> You think a man like Nagato (disregarding his arrogance) who has spent the last 30+ years of his life in a literal war zone, is going to freak (especially seeing he'd have shared vision) on someone teleporting when he casually sees Obito doing all the time?


I absolutely believe it. Naruto outplayed him several times even though Nagato had detailed knowledge on his techniques and Sage Mode, through the facial expressions of Deva it was clear the shock factor of several bunshin feint fuckings had him pissing his pants. 



> He scattered his Kunai against Ei & Killer B........ both who he had no knowledge off (other than one being Raikage and the other being Gyuki's Jin).


He opted to take them on alone, he knew their power scale, they were in a war zone, should he not have scattered kunai and instead shunshin'd in alone unaware of possible further ambushes?

Like Nagato, Minato believes this to be a fodder ninja, but he has peculiar oculars and Minato has never been shown to slow down or hold back on an opponent. He's a swift flash killer without remorse, do you honestly believe he scatters kunai or that Nagato summons? 



> Minato blitzed a fooder....... Not to a Kage & Jin. You think he'll be any less cautious against a Rin'negan user, the last thing he'll attempt is blitz with zero knowledge?


He has no knowledge on the Rinnegan, why be cautious? They're purple contacts as far as he's concerned. 



> If your going to debate for a character, at least research them and understand how they operate IC


What the tits? You've got some nerve. 



> Becuase Nagato IC used _Shinra Tensei_ on fodder as he was a nutjob with severe emotional issues?


When his best friend and virtual father Yahiko was murdered? Oh, yeah. That's definitely a valid IC feat for Nagato to use killer gravity bursts against a single man here at start battle. 



> Again when has Nagato ever IC blitzed someone. The only time he did that was against Hanzo (and that was purely to save Konan) and the latter under Kabuto's control to take out Killer B


He's opted to blitz with everyone of his paths canonically, I've listed examples of him primarily using taijutsu before other techniques even with detailed knowledge on dangerous opponents while outnumbered. Nagato yearns to shunshin in and impale his enemies with his gothic rods. 



> Before or after he is crushed with a _Shinra Tensei_? The second Nagato shared vision sees him (which it will), ST is following...... and _Shinra Tensei_ will hit Minato before Minato's kunai or _Rasengan_ hit Nagato


Shared vision is invalid, he won't summon. Obito couldn't even kamui before Minato killed him? Is the shock factor not valid here? Would Deva Path honestly ST against Minato if the dude popped behind him suddenly? It's a hail mary on all ends. 



> Then please explain his _Pein Rikudo_? They are faster and stronger than 95% of the characters physically and Nagato still never opted to blitz anyone with them..... and thats with 6 damn bodies at his disposal.


He opted to blitz several opponents. Jiraiya, Naruto, Tsunade, Bee, Iruka, Kakashi, Konohamaru, the list goes on. Nagato has attempted blitzing with everyone of his paths, including Human and Nakara. 



> He always summons first to test out the users abilities and then proceeds to muller them with rin'negan hax


No he doesn't. He does not do this without knowledge. Did he test Kakashi's abilities out with summons? Did he test Iruka's abilities? How about Tsunade? Let's not forget Konohamaru. Shit, how about the whole village when he separated his paths to search for Naruto? 



> Which is fine, and even with no knowledge against fodders, a full set of _Pein Rikudo_ (who combined are top tier in CqC) still opts to never blitz


Because you can clearly cite a single instance where all 6 were facing an opponent who was below S-rank? 

All 6 blitzed Jiraiya. 3 Blitzed Jiraiya. Preta Blitzed Naruto. Asura blitzed Tsunade. Deva blitzed Naruto. Deva blitzed Iruka. Deva blitzed Kakashi. Nagato blitzed Bee. Nagato blitzed Hanzo. Human blitzed Konohamaru. Preta blitzed Naruto. I am, of course, leaving out the other hundred of ninjas they blitzed when the paths were spread apart. 



> Just stop..... with this Nagato blitzing fantasy


You got it giogio.


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## Mercurial (Feb 1, 2013)

I guess Minato takes this,his arsenal is simple but very well suited to fight Nagato and his doujutsu


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## Jizznificent (Feb 1, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Kn6 physically reacted to ST.


not really. kn6 reacted after being hit by ST. had it been almost anyone else in kn6's position, incliding minato, they would have been blown away.


ChaosX7 said:


> *Nagato has no five second interval to my knowledge in fact i believe the internal had something to do with supplying Deva Path with alot of his chakra and exhausting it once used* and if your gonna pull the RM Naruto fight that was CIS.Asura Path gives Nagato the ability to LITERALLY CREATE LASERS AND MISSILES FROM HIS BODY and spawn six arms to guard taijutsu attacks from Minato.Human Path means all he needs to do is grab you then soulfuck you and he still has Gedo Masou to instantly soulfuck Minato.Minato cant damage GM so once its summoned he dead.
> On the otherhand Minato needs to tag him once then launch point blank rasengans in his vital points since Nagato looks like a starving man to be honest.He could warp away the missiles ONLY with ST Barrier since the lasers are lasers lightspeed basically and warp the Chibaku Tensei sphere on Nagato.Minato is smart he would wait for Nagato to use Shinra Tensei to exhaust his chakra then kill him in a flash since he could just warp out of the range of the gravity blast then return back to Nagato and strike him hard.If it gets to the point where he gets desperate and uses Shiki Fujin to seal him but then again thats stalemate


i also believe that what i highlighted in bold is correct. well actually, i wouldn't say that there is no five second interval - such a thing would be too haxx lol. however, i would say that the the interval is much shorter in nagato's case for the specific reason you explained. after all, naruto even mentioned that nagato's jutsu were stronger and *faster *when compared to pain rikudou. it wasn't explained in what way nagato's jutsu were faster but a decrease in interval between deva's jutsu could be one way in which nagato's jutsu are faster.

but this is speculation, unless the manga confirms otherwise.


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## Legend777 (Feb 1, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> That's the problem.... _Shinra Tensei_ activation has in all technical purposes been "instant"



The only thing confirmed to be instantaneous is S/T movement .

And "Activating " something has got to do it reaction speed (And none of the ninjas in Naruto have it close to what you are implying) . I believe you are talking about the time taken for it to accomplish its task .



> (or as a damn close as one can be)



And so is Tobi's phasing . Still didn't stop him from eating a rasengan or getting stabbed in his gut . And Tobi with his phasing has much better feats compared to Nagato .

*Hirashin vs ST :*
Time Taken for Minato to activate Hirashin + Time taken for him to land a hit Vs Time taken for Nagato to activate ST + Time taken for it to hit 

If Nagato is trying to look for a counter attack then that means he'd have even lesser time in his hands .

If both of them are start at the same time even then Minato would have the advantage because of his superior reaction & attack speed. 

If you are going to being up _"Minato's attack speed is not as fast as his movement " _ then I suggest you look up fights once again . He can appear at whatever distance & position he prefers . And he can appear attacking as we saw when he took care of Obito.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 1, 2013)

ChaosX7 said:


> Nagato has no five second interval to my knowledge in fact i believe the internal had something to do with supplying Deva Path with alot of his chakra[/B]



He has an interval but is has been DRASTICALLY shortened to the point that it's borderline irrelevant (unless he's using a really big one)

Nagato removed _Amaterasu_ with _Shinra Tensei_, and then the *next panel* nuked them with another one from his Chameleon. Even after using that _Shinra Tensei_ (which means a longer cool down) he still used _Shinra Tensei_ to throw Killer B off himself before RM Naruto could reach them (who's base speed is V1 Ei, Itachi levels)

He was literally spamming it against Naruto & company, with damn near no cool down


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## TheDestroyer (Feb 1, 2013)

Nagato wins. Even if he's in the interval he can Preta the rasengan and a couple kunai or punches from Minato won't take him down. Minato has no knowledge of Preta which means that he thinks he has a free chance with a rasengan it get's Preta'd and Nagato soul sucks him.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 1, 2013)

Legend777 said:


> The only thing confirmed to be instantaneous is S/T movement .



For all intensive purposes ST has been portrayed a virtually instant (even without direct confirmation). It's just the mechanics of the jutsu



Legend777 said:


> And "Activating " something has got to do it reaction speed (And none of the ninjas in Naruto have it close to what you are implying) . I believe you are talking about the time taken for it to accomplish its task .



It's exactly what I'm talking about, All Nagato does is think about is ST, and it "instanty" happens at the movement, in the same manner Minato thinks _Hirashin_ and "instantly" he is teleported 

The difference is Minato would be able to do the _thinking_ part faster, but Nagato's _Shinra Tensei_ in turn would be faster than Minato's _Rasengan_



Legend777 said:


> And so is Tobi's phasing . Still didn't stop him from eating a rasengan or getting stabbed in his gut . And Tobi with his phasing has much better feats compared to Nagato .



Obito was already tagged with seal when Minato stabbed him (the fights over by that point). 

Obito also had no idea Minato would appear above him... and Obito still had time to turn his head up and realize what happened, he just couldn't re _Kamui_ himself in time. 

Again it comes down to _Kamui_ vs. _Shinra Tensei_ in speed, in which the latter again has been shown to be faster than (even though it's physical). If Nagato was in the same position as Obito (with shared vision up), There would be no surprise factor of Minato being above him, at which point it would be a battle of how fast ST activates vs. how fast Minato can swing his arms 

Better feats.... When has _Shinra Tensei_ ever been anticipated or reacted to even with prior and full intel on the technique? They work the in completely different ways?



Legend777 said:


> *Hirashin vs ST :*
> Time Taken for Minato to activate Hirashin + Time taken for him to land a hit Vs Time taken for Nagato to activate ST + Time taken for it to hit



Reaction times: *Minato* vs. Nagato
Attack speed: Rasengan vs. *Shinra Tensei*

Even with Minato's superior reaction feats, he physically will not be able land a blow if Obito had time to turn his head to see his impending doom... something we can both agree ST significantly is faster than



Legend777 said:


> If Nagato is trying to look for a counter attack then that means he'd have even lesser time in his hands .



Again shared vision bails him out? He isn't going to guessing what Minato is attack with when his summon/path is looking at the situation from a different perspective.



Legend777 said:


> If both of them are start at the same time even then Minato would have the advantage because of his superior reaction & attack speed.



If they would start at the same time yes Minato would be able to start his swing before Nagato "thought" to use ST, but the second said thought occurred ST would activate.... and Minato would not make it in time.

His attack speed IS NOT faster than _Shinra Tensei_ as again Obito was physically able to move his head before _Rasengan_ landed. Minato trumps Nagato is reaction speed (i.e he can attack/dodge latter/earlier than the former can)



Legend777 said:


> If you are going to being up _"Minato's attack speed is not as fast as his movement " _ then I suggest you look up fights once again . He can appear at whatever distance & position he prefers . And he can appear attacking as we saw when he took care of Obito.



I've looked over every fight, Minato's attack speed after _Hirashin_ usage is FAR from instant, which is why Killer B could save Ei (who appeared above Ei in a kunai attacking position). Thats all the example I need

If you think Killer B can extend his tentacle or Obito can move his head (all thing that where done before Minato completed his attack) faster than Nagato can activate _Shinra Tensei_, the we will have to agree to disagree


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## LostSelf (Feb 1, 2013)

Where is the "Minato begins with a Kunai above Nagato's neck" condition? I can't find it but i see people arguing about something that only happened with two oponents that charged against Minato and where caught in an hard position.


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## Legend777 (Feb 1, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> In Kakashi's own words....
> 
> Its simply a repulsive force or attractive force. On panel it is shown that the attack activates virtually instantly, Kakashi was literally mm away from impaling Tendo from an underground PoA and it still got off using ST



It still doesn't say anything about being instantaneous .

What makes it so deadly is you just don't know when you going to get hit .

And reacting to a kunai from a short distance isn't the greatest of feats we have seen in this manga .



> Becuase Minato can essentially teleport his kunai/Rasengan onto to you without the need of physically having to attack? I.e there is zero time to react to anything.



He can teleport to with in a specific radius of the tag as we have seen several times . So yeah I don't see how it makes a difference.



> Minato teleported onto him.... There is no time to react if he appears literally on you with a kunai already buried into your stomach?



Exactly . Its impossible to react .

So we agree that if Minato can appear right on top of Nagato he can't react ?



> Obito didn't realize Minato could teleport to moving kunai, the last place he was expecting him was to be above him, i.e he was blindsided (like everyone Minato has fought)



And we can quite clearly see that he couldn't even formulate a thought during  the interval of Minato teleporting & slamming the rasengan .

And what about the case when he Minato shoved the Kunai ? He wasn't blinsided then right.



> In that very panel, Nagato would have known Minato was above (unlike Obito who only knew Minato was above when there was a Rasengan destroying his back)



I am saying it doesn't matter because the rasengan would already be hitting him.



> Which is still fine, as ST attack speed makes up for the reflex difference. Tendo can activate ST with a kunai mm's from it's chest, So unless Minato can slam a Rasengan into Nagato at V2 Ei speeds (which he can't as Killer B showed) than Nagato can activate ST in time



Except in this case the Rasengan  will be already be hitting Nagato by the time he decides to activate ST .

And I've already said that the two scenarios are not comparable.



> A bad example.... Minato was in a killing mode? That "poke" had the cutting power of Sasuke's Chidori Senbon ?
> 
> I'm talking about this
> 
> not this


 
I am talking about the same . 

- The Kunai was a few cms above A . So he can't appear with the Kunai on A .
- He caught A by surprise . He could afford to slash with the kunai instead of just jamming it in.

- It was the "Slice" that cut the tentacle not the "poke".



> I can see, I think everyone including myself believe Minato could have had Killer B's head on a platter had he wanted to kill him



Glad that you believe that Bee can't react to Minato's movement with FTG unlike some uchiha fans here 



> It didn't auto touch Obito? Minato was hovering above him before he thrusted his arm down.



It was hovering before Minato used FTG . We see in the very panel next to it that Minato disappeared & in the next panel it was rammed in to Obito .

Minato has shown to appear in a variety of positions when using FTG . Why can't he appear with the Rasengan right next to Obito ?


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## Joakim3 (Feb 1, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> In every single fight he's had detailed knowledge on opponents and he never summoned on anyone below S-rank in the manga.
> 
> Again, entirely irrelevant to this debate as he doesn't have time to focus, nor would he avoid the shock factor quick enough to begin sensing.



He didn't have detailed knowledge of SM Naruto, Kakashi, nor Hinata, he just had reputation.... You think if Minato starts teleporting around Nagato won't set up shared vision, or just nuke everything?



DaVizWiz said:


> Again, like above, makes this topic pointless, let us drop it please.



What your saying isn't canon. You have no evidence suggesting he physically reacted to the port and swung his blade round before Minato attempted a kill shot. More importantly, Bee had knowledge on Minato's technique, was already armed, and knew the only place he could be was behind him. [/QUOTE]

I'm talking about this.........you know When Killer B saved Ei



DaVizWiz said:


> Shared vision is invalid, he won't summon. Stop fucking around, ST was dodged by KM Naruto in the manga. It is not instant in thought or performance, it is not literally as fast as something instant.



Stop fucking around? IC he does it against everyone.

So RM Naruto dodged a invisible almost instant gravity well, which has never been reacted even by SM Naruto (who is a better sensor), well excuse me then 

_Shinra Tensei_ has never been dodged, nor reacted to...... feat wise its faster than everything other _Hirashin_ and _possibly_ Kirin



DaVizWiz said:


> All logic leads to ST not being used in the first place. Nagato unable to mentally gather himself in time to even begin to think to use ST as a man just disappeared in front of him and the logic that Minato would surely kill him before ST was released, your pushing a hail mary here dude.
> 
> What are you talking about? Are you suggesting the Bringer of death and life Nagato is going to summon colossal giants against a random fodder blocking his path?



So what your trying to tell me is Nagato is going to see Minato disappear and be frozen in fear to the point he can't move and just die..... qoute of the year

In that case Minato can solo the entire Narutverse as every character with no knowledge would just be unable to contemplate their next action and just die



DaVizWiz said:


> Because his persona is that of a God? Because he has nothing to fear against 99% of the narutoverse? Because, like in my original post, he has blindly walked into ambushes and underestimated his opponents even with knowledge in the past? This while he was attacking an entire village and half dead. A healthy Nagato against a single fodder will NEVER start with a summon.



And what makes you assume Minato & Nagato think each other are fodder? Is that some fabrication you just made up as the OP doesn't state that?

Seeing every time any character encounter another character they kinda can sense they aren't regular "fodder" just by aurora 



DaVizWiz said:


> He blitzed Bee half crippled? His shunshin speed is high level and his reaction speed is top tier. The manga visually dictates he prefers taijutsu as a primary through the use of his paths, I provided examples in my first post on this topic.



Kabuto blitzed Killer B, Nagato was not in control of his body 

Nagato summon his animals then then utilizes taijustu with his _Pein Rikudo_...... as he did with Naruto & Jiraiya? The only time he didn't do that was against Kakashi, and that was do the all the other summons destroying the village



DaVizWiz said:


> You need to slow your role dude. It's evident you're a fan of Nagato and rightfully so, but in these conditions it's absurd to think Nagato survives 3 seconds against Minato.



Slow my role? Nagato has NEVER been shown to be the blitzing type, you make him act like he is Kisame who auto engages in CqC the first chance he gets



DaVizWiz said:


> He had previous knowledge of his technique and knew him to be the Hokage. What does Nagato know here? Nothing. Why did you even type this?



Um Minato did not realize Ei was that fast nor did he know Killer B was the jin until he showed Gyuki's tentacle



DaVizWiz said:


> Nagato is suddenly mentally stronger than the dominant battle hardened A? Nagato's mental psyche is that of a 13 year old school girl post-rape compared to A.
> 
> More notably, A showed signs of stress when he realized his initial blitz was ineffective, and he could not recover before the knee hit him. Obito did the same, he instead received a Rasengan. This was with knowledge. The pissing the pants unable to think clause will occur here in Nagato's mind, it's unavoidable, especially with his egomaniac, "I can't be touched" godly persona shattering in full view.



Really now? Nagato & Ei are probably the same damn age

Ei spend his life in luxury due to being a Hokage, Nagato and spent his *entire life* in a war zone watch friends and family die, single handedly slaughtered an entire village with no qualms, then fought in the 3rd Shinobi War and went on to obliterate another village to further he quest...... 

he's as about as battle hardened as one can get (up their with the likes of Madara, Part I Gaara)... being a nutcase with no regard for your own life only helps him in that regard

Fustration yes, folding to the point what he doesn't know what to do, no


----------



## Joakim3 (Feb 1, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> I absolutely believe it. Naruto outplayed him several times even though Nagato had detailed knowledge on his techniques and Sage Mode, through the facial expressions of Deva it was clear the shock factor of several bunshin feint fuckings had him pissing his pants.



Nagato was gimped that entire fight. Shurado & Tendo were not factors. Um Nagato did not know about SM Naruto particular sage techs. The shock was merely Nagato being impressed. The only time he was concerned was when Tendo was literally defenseless.... something Nagato himself is not  



DaVizWiz said:


> He opted to take them on alone, he knew their power scale, they were in a war zone, should he not have scattered kunai and instead shunshin'd in alone unaware of possible further ambushes?



Completely agree



DaVizWiz said:


> Like Nagato, Minato believes this to be a fodder ninja, but he has peculiar oculars and Minato has never been shown to slow down or hold back on an opponent. He's a swift flash killer without remorse, do you honestly believe he scatters kunai or that Nagato summons?



He has no knowledge on the Rinnegan, why be cautious? They're purple contacts as far as he's concerned. 

What the tits? You've got some nerve. [/QUOTE]

They have know knowledge on each other individually, it never says the don't have any other knowledge on anything else i.e generic Dojutsu. If Minato recognize the Rin'negan his mindset is instantly going to change, in the same way if Nagato recognize Minato's 4th Hokage jacket?




DaVizWiz said:


> When his best friend and virtual father Yahiko was murdered? Oh, yeah. That's definitely a valid IC feat for Nagato to use killer gravity bursts against a single man here at start battle.



I said i wasn't an IC feat, he was bloodlusted and used ST to defendhimself from fodders.... then attempted a blitz on Hanzo



DaVizWiz said:


> He's opted to blitz with everyone of his paths canonically, I've listed examples of him primarily using taijutsu before other techniques even with detailed knowledge on dangerous opponents while outnumbered. Nagato yearns to shunshin in and impale his enemies with his gothic rods.



Yeah *after* he has used summons



DaVizWiz said:


> Shared vision is invalid, he won't summon. Obito couldn't even kamui before Minato killed him? Is the shock factor not valid here? Would Deva Path honestly ST against Minato if the dude popped behind him suddenly? It's a hail mary on all ends.



Obito failed due to lack of knowledge on V2, not the he is incapable of reacting (he has vastly better feats) Tendo used _Shinra Tensei_ when Kakashi popped up from underground..... why wouldn't he use it if Minato insta trolled behind him?



DaVizWiz said:


> He opted to blitz several opponents. Jiraiya, Naruto, Tsunade, Bee, Iruka, Kakashi, Konohamaru, the list goes on. Nagato has attempted blitzing with everyone of his paths, including Human and Nakara.



Jirayia.... used summons first
Naruto.... used summons first
Tsunade.... was bleeding and half dead
Bee.... Nagato was controlled by Kabuto
Iruka.... was being integrated as Tendo
Kakashi... Tendo kicked in response to Kakasi grabbing the chakra rod

The only thing Jigukudo or Ningendo can do is taijutsu?

No of those translate to seeing an opponent and instantly trying to shove a rod down his throat 



DaVizWiz said:


> No he doesn't. He does not do this without knowledge. Did he test Kakashi's abilities out with summons? Did he test Iruka's abilities? How about Tsunade? Let's not forget Konohamaru. Shit, how about the whole village when he separated his paths to search for Naruto?



You just said it yourself..... he split his paths up to search for Naruto, not test out villagers abilities. He split half the paths for reconnoissance and the other half for distractions. They weren't together at any point in his invasion as he had to look for Naruto

The first thing he did against SM Naruto i.e his main target....... was regroup the paths and summon. Nagato did not know Naruto's specific abilities, only a general understanding of who he was

Because you can clearly cite a single instance where all 6 were facing an opponent who was below S-rank? [/QUOTE]

Idk the other 16+ years he was slaughtering people outside of Konoha. We have never even seen all 6 paths go all out? all we can do is go by IC feats, and all IC actions point to Nagato liking to summon even without specific knowledge



DaVizWiz said:


> All 6 blitzed Jiraiya. 3 Blitzed Jiraiya. Preta Blitzed Naruto. Asura blitzed Tsunade. Deva blitzed Naruto. Deva blitzed Iruka. Deva blitzed Kakashi. Nagato blitzed Bee. Nagato blitzed Hanzo. Human blitzed Konohamaru. Preta blitzed Naruto. I am, of course, leaving out the other hundred of ninjas they blitzed when the paths were spread apart.



Who was missing an arm and in base.... who wouldn't attack him like that? 

Ninegndo attacked Jiraiya mid speech, and when that failed all 3 attacked. 

Again both Ningendo & Gakido are bode that he can casually revived so yeah Nagato can be more reckless with them. 

Tsunade was bleeding and half dead..... why wouldn't Nagato kill her? 

Tendo did not blitz Kakashi, Tendo kicked Kakashi, Kakashi ducked & charged _Raikiri_, Tendo impaled him and caused Kakashi to miss

Nagato was being controlled by Kabuto when he blitzed Killer B, and he was bloodlust against Hanzo? 

Jigukudo can't attack any other way other than taijustu 



DaVizWiz said:


> You got it giogio.



Again blitzing with the paths =/= Nagato will do it himself


----------



## Joakim3 (Feb 1, 2013)

Legend777 said:


> It still doesn't say anything about being instantaneous .
> 
> What makes it so deadly is you just don't know when you going to get hit .
> 
> And reacting to a kunai from a short distance isn't the greatest of feats we have seen in this manga .



Yes it doesn't say it, but portrayal wise and scan wise one can deduce it is absurdly fast, and yes it's key hax is it being invisible is making it impossible to predict when it's used

Yes it's not the best of feats, its just shows Shinra Tensei can be activated even within the most minuscule distance. Even though the KN6 reaction feat is probably Nagato's best one 



Legend777 said:


> He can teleport to with in a specific radius of the tag as we have seen several times . So yeah I don't see how it makes a difference.



He teleports to whatever location is ideal for to attack within the general area, if he's marked you then he can teleport directly on you 



Legend777 said:


> Exactly . Its impossible to react .
> 
> So we agree that if Minato can appear right on top of Nagato he can't react ?



If Minato *physically tags* Nagato than the fight is over, Minato would just teleport himself into a position where the Kunai would form in Nagato's skull..... when yes it then becomes impossible to react to

If he throws it near his head like he did against Ei & Minato, and is looming above Nagato then he could be able to react in time to do Minato having to physically strike him



Legend777 said:


> And we can quite clearly see that he couldn't even formulate a thought during  the interval of Minato teleporting & slamming the rasengan .
> 
> And what about the case when he Minato shoved the Kunai ? He wasn't blinsided then right.



Feat wise Obito should have been more than capable of re-warping, why he didn't idk... could have been him looking for Minato or purely from the shock of forgetting he could wrap to moving Kunai

When Minato shoved the Kunai in Obito's gut he had already physically tagged him. He literally teleported onto Obito with the kunai already in a percing position (he didn't have to swing his arm or anything)



Legend777 said:


> I am saying it doesn't matter because the rasengan would already be hitting him.



Yes if Nagato was already physically tagged then yes the _Rasengan_ would start out hitting him 

If Minato did his classic throw the Kunai next to your head, the best he could do is put himself into the same position he did against Ei & Obito... hovering above them, leaving the tiny gap to use ST



Legend777 said:


> Except in this case the Rasengan  will be already be hitting Nagato by the time he decides to activate ST .
> 
> And I've already said that the two scenarios are not comparable.



Again if Minato has tagged Nagato then he auto wins

If not he can't teleport his kunai/rasengan onto Minato and still has to physically swing them for a blow



Legend777 said:


> I am talking about the same .
> 
> - The Kunai was a few cms above A . So he can't appear with the Kunai on A .
> - He caught A by surprise . He could afford to slash with the kunai instead of just jamming it in.
> ...



Which is fine, IC he would have done the same to Nagato by appearing on top of him? If shared vision wasn't up he'd be fucked, if it was he'd know where Minato was again leaving a small gap to counter with ST

The main point I'm saying is that Gyuki was capable of intercepting Minato's Kunai strike on Ei after Minato had appeared, it means there is time to counter 



Legend777 said:


> Glad that you believe that Bee can't react to Minato's movement with FTG unlike some uchiha fans here



Lmao I'm an uchiha fan , I just try not to wank/dehype characters (and I know I unintentionally do it  time to time)



Legend777 said:


> It was hovering before Minato used FTG . We see in the very panel next to it that Minato disappeared & in the next panel it was rammed in to Obito .
> 
> Minato has shown to appear in a variety of positions when using FTG . Why can't he appear with the Rasengan right next to Obito ?



Becuase Obito could have seen him and re-phased in time? 

Minato appearing above/behind his enemy is the best method of attack, as A) the enemy doesn't know where he is, and B) they can't adequately defending themselves due to the former

The only reason Killer B managed so save Ei was due to see Minato appear from a different angle, essentially becoming Ei's "shared vision".


----------



## Legend777 (Feb 1, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Yes it doesn't say it, but portrayal wise and scan wise one can deduce it is absurdly fast, and yes it's key hax is it being invisible is making it impossible to predict when it's used.



Yeah I agree that its very fast but not instantaneous .



> He teleports to whatever location is ideal for to attack within the general area, if he's marked you then he can teleport directly on you



So why can't he teleport on to someone if he is in the general area of the tag ?

-Minato used FTG step 2 against Obito only to make sure that he can attack him when he is "Tangible" (In case you bring this up)



> If Minato physically tags Nagato than the fight is over, Minato would just teleport himself into a position where the Kunai would form in Nagato's skull..... when yes it then becomes impossible to react to



And I am saying this would the same if a Kunai is in Nagato's vicinity.



> If he throws it near his head like he did against Ei & Obito, and is looming above Nagato then he could be able to react in time to do Minato having to physically strike him



If he tries the same as against Ei , then yeah he gets fked . 

Against Obito? No , as I've already said he appears landing the hit .



> Feat wise Obito should have been more than capable of re-warping, why he didn't idk... could have been him looking for Minato or purely from the shock of forgetting he could wrap to moving Kunai



It looked like he was blitzed to be. 



> When Minato shoved the Kunai in Obito's gut he had already physically tagged him. He literally teleported onto Obito with the kunai already in a percing position (he didn't have to swing his arm or anything)



Covered already.



> If not he can't teleport his kunai/rasengan onto Minato and still has to physically swing them for a blow



Again I repeat :

_Minato has shown to appear in a variety of positions when using FTG . Why can't he appear with the Rasengan right next to Obito ?_



> The main point I'm saying is that Gyuki was capable of intercepting Minato's Kunai strike on Ei after Minato had appeared, it means there is time to counter



Yeah I agree . If the scenario is comparable to that Minato can't land a hit .

But there are situations when he can as I've been saying.



> Lmao I'm an uchiha fan , I just try not to wank/dehype characters (and I know I unintentionally do it time to time )



Ok 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Becuase Obito could have seen him and re-phased in time?




He was outright blitzed .



> Minato appearing above/behind his enemy is the best method of attack, as A) the enemy doesn't know where he is, and B) they can't adequately defending themselves due to the former



Or he can appear with his attack landing on his opponent . This seems to the only real point of contention aside from Minato being able to appear right next to his opponent if he in the general radius .


So answer me :

1) Why you don't think Minato can appear with the attack hitting ?

2) Why Minato won't be able to appear right next to his opponent when he has been shown to do so on multiple occasions? ( Tagged be on his tentacle , appeared right on his back etc )


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 1, 2013)

In character and with no knowledge beforehand Minato will likely scatter his kunai at the outset of the battle.

Then wait for his opponents move as he did against the Raikage.

Nagato will summon an animal or two to rush Minato. With the exception of bansho tennin(which he spams) Summoning has been his go-to opening move. 

When he detected Jiraiya, he sent his summon body. After naruto arrived and the paths gathered, he summoned first thing.
Against KCM Naruto he summoned right after a BT.

Minato will wait until the last second to dodge the summons then hiraishin over to nagato and attack him.

The battle may end right there. Hiraishin isn't something you just react to easily without any knowledge at all beforehand like some random supplementary jutsu. Nagato's shared vision won't be setup omnidirectionally this early into the battle either.

Nagato has good reaction feats but I don't know if he can pull off a ST with no knowledge or shared vision buffing against the first Hiraishin and I lean against him doing so being the case.

If he does react, he'll blow back Minato and deduce that he can teleport to kunai. Minato won't figure out ST until he tinkers around and gets hit again. It becomes closer if Nagato survives that first no knowledge hiraishin, with Nagato having the upper hand.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 3, 2013)

> He didn't have detailed knowledge of SM Naruto, Kakashi, nor Hinata, he just had reputation.... You think if Minato starts teleporting around Nagato won't set up shared vision, or just nuke everything?


He had detailed knowledge of Naruto, who had similar sage chakra to a powerhouse freight train in Jiraiya, he summoned the same frogs, he admitted Jiraiya was his teacher, and he was a confirmed high target Jinchuriki. 

No, I don't think Nagato does anything outside of blitzing with a rod. How many times are you going to ask the same question? My logic is clear as day. 



> I'm talking about this.........you know When Killer B saved Ei


Not sure what this is proving. If Minato ported in clear view of Nagato while attacking another I have no doubt he would be able to react in time to pressure Minato if he had knowledge on the technique. What you fail to understand here is he has no knowledge, so the shock factor is there, there isn't another man to distract him, and Minato won't be porting in front, he'll be porting in the back of Nagato, just like he did A. 



> Stop fucking around? IC he does it against everyone.


Do state a single opponent he summoned against that he
1. Didn't have knowledge on power scale/detailed abilities
2. Were lower than S-Rank
3. Weren't Jinchuriki's
4. Weren't a clear lethal threat



> So RM Naruto dodged a invisible almost instant gravity well, which has never been reacted even by SM Naruto (who is a better sensor), well excuse me then


Indeed he did, the ST that hit Killer Bee initially let loose by a cripple zombie Nagato failed to hit Naruto on panel. He was right next to Bee. Sage Naruto, back with Ma and Pa also weren't hit on panel by the boss-sized ST Deva let out. It is most obviously predictable and entirely dodgeable with shunshin. 



> _Shinra Tensei_ has never been dodged, nor reacted to...... feat wise its faster than everything other _Hirashin_ and _possibly_ Kirin


Do look above. 



> So what your trying to tell me is Nagato is going to see Minato disappear and be frozen in fear to the point he can't move and just die..... qoute of the year


So what you're trying to tell me is a healthy Nagato fighting some random yellow haired leaf ninja is going to start with gravity bursts, be unaffected by the fact this ninja just disappeared from full view and somehow guess he's behind him in time to release an ST before Minato stabs him in the soft gooey region of the back head if an Obito with full knowledge on his teacher couldn't activate kamui in time to counter a Rasengan? 

Quote of the fucking century.



> In that case Minato can solo the entire Narutverse as every character with no knowledge would just be unable to contemplate their next action and just die


Highly likely, this is probably why he's considered the most accomplished ninja via dialogue in the manga on panel by several characters. 



> And what makes you assume Minato & Nagato think each other are fodder? Is that some fabrication you just made up as the OP doesn't state that?


Because there's no knowledge? 



> Seeing every time any character encounter another character they kinda can sense they aren't regular "fodder" just by aurora


Are you suggesting Nagato has a 6th sense in suddenly discovering Minato's power scale?  



> Kabuto blitzed Killer B, Nagato was not in control of his body


Nagato was told by Kabuto to attack, what makes you think he deliberately told Nagato to move into CQC? 

This does nothing for the other instances where his paths chose taijutsu as a primary, as well as himself when dealing with Hanzo. 



> Nagato summon his animals then then utilizes taijustu with his _Pein Rikudo_...... as he did with Naruto & Jiraiya? The only time he didn't do that was against Kakashi, and that was do the all the other summons destroying the village


In short, he used summons against two clear S-rank ninja he had power scale knowledge on. The second being the one who already had 3 boss toads present.

Your argument is shit. He didn't summon against Tsunade, Konomhamaru, Iruka, Kakashi, all the other leaf ninja he was blitzing without animal and Hanzo. You have no valid basis. 



> Slow my role? Nagato has NEVER been shown to be the blitzing type, you make him act like he is Kisame who auto engages in CqC the first chance he gets


Did you not just read the dozen of examples I posted with path's individually blitzing enemies with and without knowledge?



> Ei spend his life in luxury due to being a Hokage, Nagato and spent his *entire life* in a war zone watch friends and family die, single handedly slaughtered an entire village with no qualms, then fought in the 3rd Shinobi War and went on to obliterate another village to further he quest......


Luxury? At what point does the son of a beast Raikage have time for luxury? Raikage fought in several wars and witnessed a tailed beast rampage on his city several times throughout his lifetime. Nagato watched his friends die and thus transformed into a murderous pawn for Obito. His psyche was highly unstable as Konan couldn't even understand his motives from one second to the next. 



> he's as about as battle hardened as one can get (up their with the likes of Madara, Part I Gaara)... being a nutcase with no regard for your own life only helps him in that regard


Lol. Nagato is a murderer whom no one has come close to touching since the installment of Jiraiya's teachings. He's never known tangible danger, when a man suddenly disappears in full view that danger will come back to fuck him 10 fold. 



> Fustration yes, folding to the point what he doesn't know what to do, no


Frustration? Lol. Did you fail to read the pain arc where Deva, on several occasions, failed to perform to save his other paths and showed clear expressions of fear and indecisiveness? 

If I suddenly disappear in front of you, what is your mindset? 
"What the fuck? *Look left, look right-" Stabbed.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 3, 2013)

> Nagato was gimped that entire fight. Shurado & Tendo were not factors. Um Nagato did not know about SM Naruto particular sage techs. The shock was merely Nagato being impressed. The only time he was concerned was when Tendo was literally defenseless.... something Nagato himself is not


He had detailed knowledge that Sage Chakra increases speed and strength. 

Nagato believes he can defend himself against a man who disappears from full view? Interesting. 



> They have know knowledge on each other individually, it never says the don't have any other knowledge on anything else i.e generic Dojutsu. If Minato recognize the Rin'negan his mindset is instantly going to change, in the same way if Nagato recognize Minato's 4th Hokage jacket?


I'm actually quite sure no knowledge means no knowledge at all. If your logic were correct, every simulation with Akatsuki members would now change because they were wearing clouded cloaks. More importantly, I believe Minato usually fights in a leaf flak jacket with normal military apparel. Hiruzen, Tobirama, Sarutobi and Tsunade have their own specific armors and costumes which don't consist of a Hokage cloak, as shown in the latest chapter when the latter kages were brought back from the grave. Minato's cloak canonically was shown in his closet back home. 



> I said i wasn't an IC feat, he was bloodlusted and used ST to defendhimself from fodders.... then attempted a blitz on Hanzo


Ok we agree then. 



> Obito failed due to lack of knowledge on V2, not the he is incapable of reacting (he has vastly better feats) Tendo used _Shinra Tensei_ when Kakashi popped up from underground..... why wouldn't he use it if Minato insta trolled behind him?


Are you serious? Obito failed because he was astronomically stressed that Minato had just shitted on him and by the time he thought to defend himself he was already hit by the Rasengan.

1. Because like Obito, he would be stressed by the obvious fact a dude just disappeared. 
2. He doesn't know he's behind him? 



> Jirayia.... used summons first


Knew detailed knowledge on his techniques and power scale. 


> Naruto.... used summons first


Naruto summoned first. 


> Tsunade.... was bleeding and half dead


Terrible motive against a healing god. 


> Bee.... Nagato was controlled by Kabuto


Kabuto didn't specifically tell him to move into CQC. Meaning a cripple Nagato still prefers close contact shunshins. 


> Iruka.... was being integrated as Tendo


He attempted stabbing Iruka. That's blitzing. 


> Kakashi... Tendo kicked in response to Kakasi grabbing the chakra rod


Tendo shunshin kicked at Kakashi after Iruka left. He knew Kakashi to be a highly dangerous individual, but he went right at him. 



> The only thing Jigukudo or Ningendo can do is taijutsu?


Not very well I might add. Nonetheless, Nagato allowed them to. 



> No of those translate to seeing an opponent and instantly trying to shove a rod down his throat


Almost all of them do. 



> You just said it yourself..... he split his paths up to search for Naruto, not test out villagers abilities. He split half the paths for reconnoissance and the other half for distractions. They weren't together at any point in his invasion as he had to look for Naruto


In short, he willingly put them in danger and mainly utilized their abilities in Taijutsu. 



> The first thing he did against SM Naruto i.e his main target....... was regroup the paths and summon. Nagato did not know Naruto's specific abilities, only a general understanding of who he was


Naruto had 3 boss summons present, was in Sage Mode, and was a Jinchuriki.



> Idk the other 16+ years he was slaughtering people outside of Konoha. We have never even seen all 6 paths go all out? all we can do is go by IC feats, and all IC actions point to Nagato liking to summon even without specific knowledge


In short, you have no canon evidence. 

IC, Nagato goes for a swift rod kill on random fodders and S-ranks alike. 



> Who was missing an arm and in base.... who wouldn't attack him like that?


I wouldn't. Rasengan and Yomi Numa could still be used. 



> Ninegndo attacked Jiraiya mid speech, and when that failed all 3 attacked.


In short, taijutsu is a primary for Nagato. 



> Again both Ningendo & Gakido are bode that he can casually revived so yeah Nagato can be more reckless with them.


And Nagato is healthy with a full powered Rinnegan, highly egotistical in his mindset and a fodder is blocking his path, why would he be reckless? Hmmmm, that's a tough one. 
1. Bombs a city severely weakening his paths before obtaining Naruto. 
2. Blitzes a village as a primary military tactic to find one man.
3. Deliberately angers Naruto to release Kyuubi, making his capture now impossible as 5 of his paths were previously eliminated.  

Is there a more reckless character in the manga? 



> Tsunade was bleeding and half dead..... why wouldn't Nagato kill her?


Because Naruto was standing there? Because he doesn't know what Tsunade can do? Because it could be a trap? 



> Tendo did not blitz Kakashi, Tendo kicked Kakashi, Kakashi ducked & charged _Raikiri_, Tendo impaled him and caused Kakashi to miss


Tendo attempted kicking him because Kakashi disarmed him initially. That's a blitz, and a choice for taijutsu as a primary alone instead of regrouping. 



> Nagato was being controlled by Kabuto when he blitzed Killer B, and he was bloodlust against Hanzo?


Kabuto didn't tell him to blitz, he told him to attack.  



> Jigukudo can't attack any other way other than taijustu


That doesn't take away the fact that Nagato chose to attack with him. 



> Again blitzing with the paths =/= Nagato will do it himself


Yes it does? His paths dictate his mindset and choice patterns. At this point if you can't understand Nagato is highly invested in Taijutsu as a primary then you are simply a fanboy adjusting his mindset to ensure a victory in a clear loss here.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Feb 4, 2013)

Nagato wins, mid-high diff.


----------



## ImSerious (Feb 4, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> How many times are we going to go over this
> 
> Tendo used _Shinra Tensei_, KN6 was *hit*, and *then* anchored it's self to prevent itself from moving. It did not anchor itself *before* _Shinra Tensei_ made contact with it (which would then be a reaction feat)
> 
> Thats like saying I _reacted_ to a bullet when I put my arms up after it went through my chest





Jizznificent said:


> not really. kn6 reacted after being hit by ST. had it been almost anyone else in kn6's position, incliding minato, they would have been blown away.



regular shuriken can cut him as easily as any other person.

Top left panel: ST is used, KN6 isnt hit by it yet.
Middle panel: KN6 anchors himself.
Bottom right panel: Kn6 is hit by ST


GG?


----------



## Jagger (Feb 4, 2013)

These kind of threads never ends.


----------



## eyeknockout (Feb 4, 2013)

nagato wins by outlasting minato since if minato comes in too close with a kunai is will be useless and if he comes in with a rasengan preta path solos. so there's nothing minato can do


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## Joakim3 (Feb 4, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> cutting his thumbs
> 
> Top left panel: ST is used, KN6 isnt hit by it yet.
> Middle panel: KN6 anchors himself.
> ...



Fail or a post is fail 

ST was capable of hitting RM Naruto/Killer B & Itachi from 50m+ before *any of them* could react, and your _seriously_ trying to convince us KN6 anticipated ST (it being invisible) & put it's tails down before ALL before the gravity wave traveled some ~2 ft 

Congratulations...... you have officially gave KN6 the fastest reactions in the manga by the order of several magnitude


----------



## blk (Feb 5, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Link removed
> 
> Top left panel: ST is used, KN6 isnt hit by it yet.
> Middle panel: KN6 anchors himself.
> ...



It's more likely that Kn6 anticipated it by the way in which Deva has moved his hands, since he already knew how Shinra Tensei worked.
In other words, Kn6 has reacted to the hands, not to the gravity wave.


----------



## ImSerious (Feb 6, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Fail or a post is fail
> 
> ST was capable of hitting RM Naruto/Killer B & Itachi from 50m+ before *any of them* could react, and your _seriously_ trying to convince us KN6 anticipated ST (it being invisible) & put it's tails down before ALL before the gravity wave traveled some ~2 ft
> 
> Congratulations...... you have officially gave KN6 the fastest reactions in the manga by the order of several magnitude



I showed you a page of KN6 reacting to ST. I dont know what more i can do to convince you.



blk said:


> It's more likely that Kn6 anticipated it by the way in which Deva has moved his hands, since he already knew how Shinra Tensei worked.
> In other words, Kn6 has reacted to the hands, not to the gravity wave.



Read my post again. In the top left panel Pain used ST, in the middle panel KN6 anchored himself and finally in the bottom right panel ST connected.

What's so hard to understand here.


----------



## blk (Feb 6, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Read my post again. In the top left panel Pain used ST, in the middle panel KN6 anchored himself and finally in the bottom right panel ST connected.
> 
> What's so hard to understand here.



This doesn't really counter what i said.

KN6 anchored himself when Pain moved his hand, so a possibility is that he reacted to the hand, no to the gravity wave (which is, honestly, a lot more credible).
Of course, this was possible because KN6 had knowledge of ST in advance and Pain didn't used the "handless" version.

Therefore, in regard of this thread, i don't think that it will be possible for Minato to react to ST given the absence of knowledge.


----------



## T-Bag (Feb 6, 2013)

raizen28 said:


> Wonder what a Minato Rasengan to the face will do.
> If Minato exploits that 5 interval.



nagato eats it for breakfast lol


----------



## ImSerious (Feb 6, 2013)

blk said:


> This doesn't really counter what i said.
> 
> KN6 anchored himself when Pain moved his hand, so a possibility is that he reacted to the hand, no to the gravity wave (which is, honestly, a lot more credible).
> Of course, this was possible because KN6 had knowledge of ST in advance and Pain didn't used the "handless" version.
> ...



Your not making sense. When Pain moved his hand he used ST.


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## Black☆Star (Feb 6, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Your not making sense. When Pain moved his hand he used ST.


He is saying that KN6 reacted to Deva Path's hand, not Shinra Tensei itself.

Basically, if Minato wants to avoid getting hit he needs to pay attention to Nagato's hand, although he can use ST without waving his hands around, but since Minato has no knowledge that makes it impossible to dodge


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## ImSerious (Feb 6, 2013)

When Pain moved his hand, ST activated.
KN6 anchored himself to the ground before the shockwave connected with him.


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## Black☆Star (Feb 6, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> When Pain moved his hand, ST activated.
> KN6 anchored himself to the ground before the shockwave connected with him.


ST was activated after KN6 anchored himself


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## ImSerious (Feb 6, 2013)

Black☆Star said:


> ST was activated after KN6 anchored himself


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## Black☆Star (Feb 6, 2013)

Concession accepted


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## ImSerious (Feb 6, 2013)

My argument is backed up by the manga scan i posted. Your fanfiction isnt backed up by anything.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 6, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> My argument is backed up by the manga scan i posted. Your fanfiction isnt backed up by anything.



Your arguement fails as _Shinra Tensei_ activation is symobilzed by the giant *SHINRA TENSEI* words on the panel (before KN6 anchored itself) 

All your argument has achieved is annoying me and half the other members your debating


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Your arguement fails as _Shinra Tensei_ activation is symobilzed by the giant *SHINRA TENSEI* words on the panel (before KN6 anchored itself)
> 
> All your argument has achieved is annoying me and half the other members your debating


Feel free to reply to me anytime you feel you're done taunting others about a topic that is irrelevant to the thread entirely.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Feel free to reply to me anytime you feel you're done taunting others about a topic that is irrelevant to the thread entirely.



Taunting? *he's the one* who randomly posted that KN6 reacted to _Shinra Tensei_ in one response to one of my post (of which said post wasn't even directed to him)

Sorry I don't have time to debate you 24/7, and it's very relevant as he/she claims since KN6 "reacted to ST" so can Minato..... of which both are false


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## ImSerious (Feb 6, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Your arguement fails as _Shinra Tensei_ activation is symobilzed by the giant *SHINRA TENSEI* words on the panel (before KN6 anchored itself)



I know?

> ST was activated(the giant SHINRA TENSEI)
> KN6 anchored himself
> ST connected

You seem confused.



> All your argument has achieved is annoying me and half the other members your debating



Please dont be mad.


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## blk (Feb 6, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Your not making sense. When Pain moved his hand he used ST.



What i'm saying is, basically, that chances are that KN6 anchored himself while Pain was moving his hand (as you can see by how it is still in movement in the top right panel of the page that you linked) and activating ST.

But either way, it would be impossible for a Minato without knowledge to react to ST.


----------



## Joakim3 (Feb 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> He had detailed knowledge of Naruto, who had similar sage chakra to a powerhouse freight train in Jiraiya, he summoned the same frogs, he admitted Jiraiya was his teacher, and he was a confirmed high target Jinchuriki.
> 
> No, I don't think Nagato does anything outside of blitzing with a rod. How many times are you going to ask the same question? My logic is clear as day.



All of which are repetitional knowledge :get

Nagato did not know about Frog Kata's, Naruto being able to throw or expand FRS, or his mass _Kage Bunshin_ usage. He went in FAR from full knowledge as did Naruto

Your logic is failed, seeing Nagato hasn't moved in 16+ years and we don't know what he would do fully healthy other than what he's displayed through his _Pein Rikudo_



DaVizWiz said:


> Not sure what this is proving. If Minato ported in clear view of Nagato while attacking another I have no doubt he would be able to react in time to pressure Minato if he had knowledge on the technique. What you fail to understand here is he has no knowledge, so the shock factor is there, there isn't another man to distract him, and Minato won't be porting in front, he'll be porting in the back of Nagato, just like he did A.



Which is fine as long as he doesn't summon....... and seeing all his fight which we have scene he does

Your coming up with an IC mindset for a character that has never "existed," We simply have ZERO knowledge of what Nagato would do with full mobility other than what has been displayed 



DaVizWiz said:


> Do state a single opponent he summoned against that he
> 1. Didn't have knowledge on power scale/detailed abilities
> 2. Were lower than S-Rank
> 3. Weren't Jinchuriki's
> 4. Weren't a clear lethal threat



What do you think Chikushodo was doing during the invasion? spamming Summons against fodder



DaVizWiz said:


> Indeed he did, the ST that hit Killer Bee initially let loose by a cripple zombie Nagato failed to hit Naruto on panel. He was right next to Bee. Sage Naruto, back with Ma and Pa also weren't hit on panel by the boss-sized ST Deva let out. It is most obviously predictable and entirely dodgeable with shunshin.



So Naruto can predict and dodge a invisible, chakra less gravity wave that moves faster than 99.999% of things in the manga..... ok

back in the real world (manga) where no one has ever reacted or let alone dodged a _Shinra Tensei_ aimed at them (including SM Naruto who's sensing is far better than RM's). My question is what *proof* (other than it "not happening on panel" do you have saying him & Itachi didn't get hit? seeing both were taken by surprise just like Killer B



DaVizWiz said:


> Do look above.
> 
> So what you're trying to tell me is a healthy Nagato fighting some random yellow haired leaf ninja is going to start with gravity bursts, be unaffected by the fact this ninja just disappeared from full view and somehow guess he's behind him in time to release an ST before Minato stabs him in the soft gooey region of the back head if an Obito with full knowledge on his teacher couldn't activate kamui in time to counter a Rasengan?



We have zero idea what a healthy Nagato does...... YOU ARE trying to fabricate what a IC healthy Nagato does when he doesn't, nor hasn't existed. 

Obito was a 17 year old kid who forgot his master could teleport to moving Kunai (something feat wise he could counter current). A mentally zombified Nagato activated _Fujustu Kuyin_ before RM Naruto's chakra arm could slam it into his face from 1ft away, you don't think with shared vision he couldn't accomplish that



DaVizWiz said:


> Quote of the fucking century.
> 
> Highly likely, this is probably why he's considered the most accomplished ninja via dialogue in the manga on panel by several characters.



As is Itachi, Naruto, Madara, Nagato or every other relevant character that directly influenced Naruto



DaVizWiz said:


> Because there's no knowledge?
> 
> Are you suggesting Nagato has a 6th sense in suddenly discovering Minato's power scale?
> 
> Nagato was told by Kabuto to attack, what makes you think he deliberately told Nagato to move into CQC?



He can sense chakra? If he senses charka larger than normal one would think it would rase some flags 

What makes you think Nagato was in control of his body at any time? Kabuto commanded him to blitz unless you think a cripple is willingly going to into CqC against Killer B (after Nagato witnessed what him pushing back Itachi)



DaVizWiz said:


> This does nothing for the other instances where his paths chose taijutsu as a primary, as well as himself when dealing with Hanzo.
> 
> In short, he used summons against two clear S-rank ninja he had power scale knowledge on. The second being the one who already had 3 boss toads present.



Becuase his paths can casually be revived? Yeah he can treat them recklessly without a care in the world. Nagato rushed to save Konan, not attack Hanzo

He summoned against fodder when he invaded Konoha > your examples



DaVizWiz said:


> Your argument is shit. He didn't summon against Tsunade, Konomhamaru, Iruka, Kakashi, all the other leaf ninja he was blitzing without animal and Hanzo. You have no valid basis.
> 
> Did you not just read the dozen of examples I posted with path's individually blitzing enemies with and without knowledge?



Why are you giving me examples of the _Pein Rikudo_ individually fighting? They fight as a unit and when fighting as a unit the summon

And Nagato summoned once again... against fodders when he invaded Konoha



DaVizWiz said:


> Luxury? At what point does the son of a beast Raikage have time for luxury? Raikage fought in several wars and witnessed a tailed beast rampage on his city several times throughout his lifetime. Nagato watched his friends die and thus transformed into a murderous pawn for Obito. His psyche was highly unstable as Konan couldn't even understand his motives from one second to the next.



War orphan physcopath vs. brute Raikage...... who do you think is more battle  hardened and has more experience in war



DaVizWiz said:


> Lol. Nagato is a murderer whom no one has come close to touching since the installment of Jiraiya's teachings. He's never known tangible danger, when a man suddenly disappears in full view that danger will come back to fuck him 10 fold.



Your right becuase he fights with his _Pein Rikudo_, not himself........ I.e he can be overconfident and cocky. Technically, if we want to stick to the _rules_ of the manga Minato would be fighting the _Pein Rikudo_ before Nagato



DaVizWiz said:


> Frustration? Lol. Did you fail to read the pain arc where Deva, on several occasions, failed to perform to save his other paths and showed clear expressions of fear and indecisiveness?
> 
> If I suddenly disappear in front of you, what is your mindset?
> "What the fuck? *Look left, look right-" Stabbed.



You mean because Tendo was _literally_ powerless and was literally incapable of anything save taijutsu..... re read DavWiz

And this is assuming a kunai even reaches Nagato in the first place seeing IC he uses ST or Summons to deflect/block projectiles


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## Joakim3 (Feb 6, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> I know?
> 
> > ST was activated(the giant SHINRA TENSEI)
> > KN6 anchored himself
> ...



Thank you ImSerious for just confirming KN6 *failed* to reacted to _Shinra Tensei_ *activation*

In short if KN6 couldn't react to the activation (nor the wave since it's invisible), that means by virtue of logic it had to react to the only other thing moving.... Tendo's hand

You make things so easy

Reactions: Funny 1


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2013)

> All of which are repetitional knowledge :get


Fail. 



> Nagato did not know about Frog Kata's, Naruto being able to throw or expand FRS, or his mass _Kage Bunshin_ usage. He went in FAR from full knowledge as did Naruto


He knew Naruto was a Sage, just like Jiraiya. He knew Naruto had the capacity to summon the same frogs as Jiraiya. He knew naruto was a jinchuriki for the leaf. He knew Pa had previous knowledge on his paths. 

Not knowing about frog kata and bunshins doesn't matter. He told his paths to blitz in several times knowing everything else. 



> Your logic is failed, seeing Nagato hasn't moved in 16+ years and we don't know what he would do fully healthy other than what he's displayed through his _Pein Rikudo_


16+ Years? Nagato appeared in only two arcs. Are you suddenly writing a biographical novel on Nagato's entire life and the 16 years you're positive he was a cripple? 

Your statements are ridiculously delusional, I proved he had detailed knowledge on Naruto's power scale and chose to blitz in regardless.



> Which is fine as long as he doesn't summon....... and seeing all his fight which we have scene he does


Are we going to go in circles now? You're the biggest Nagato fanboy on the forum- FACT. This dude isn't summoning against a RANDOMIZED INDIVIDUAL WHILE HEALTHY. 



> Your coming up with an IC mindset for a character that has never "existed," We simply have ZERO knowledge of what Nagato would do with full mobility other than what has been displayed


Why the fuck are you assuming he'll summon then? You literally just said he hasn't blitzed for 16+ years yet you're now saying we have zero knowledge what he would do with full mobility? You're all over the place. 



> What do you think Chikushodo was doing during the invasion? spamming Summons against fodder


What is this? What does that have to do with a single man blocking the path of a fully healthy Nagato? 



> So Naruto can predict and dodge a invisible, chakra less gravity wave that moves faster than 99.999% of things in the manga..... ok


Nope, he already did. I'll post the scan if you want. Though then again, we've already debated this before, you remember, and you're just bullshitting your way through this debate. 

Naruto dodged it twice, say the word and I'll post the chapters where he did. 



> back in the real world (manga) where no one has ever reacted or let alone dodged a _Shinra Tensei_ aimed at them (including SM Naruto who's sensing is far better than RM's). My question is what *proof* (other than it "not happening on panel" do you have saying him & Itachi didn't get hit? seeing both were taken by surprise just like Killer B


Dude, we've debated this before. 
1. Killer B was hit with the ST, KCM Naruto wasn't. He dodged.
2. Boss Toads were hit with Deva ST, Naruto, Ma, and Pa were not. They dodged.  



> We have zero idea what a healthy Nagato does...... YOU ARE trying to fabricate what a IC healthy Nagato does when he doesn't, nor hasn't existed.


We have a full idea of what he does, because he's highly reckless against opponents he has knowledge on while unhealthy. You're suggesting he decides to be highly cautious against a random individual while healthy without knowledge? What the fuck? You might be retarded. 



> Obito was a 17 year old kid who forgot his master could teleport to moving Kunai (something feat wise he could counter current). A mentally zombified Nagato activated _Fujustu Kuyin_ before RM Naruto's chakra arm could slam it into his face from 1ft away, you don't think with shared vision he couldn't accomplish that


So much stupidity. 

ARE YOU SUGGESTING OBITO'S KAMUI WAS SLOWER WHEN HE FOUGHT MINATO? 

ARE YOU SUGGESTING OBITO FORGOT ABOUT KUNAI WARPING? 

ARE YOU IGNORING THE FACT OBITO STILL COULDN'T REACT WITH KAMUI AFTER ASSESSING MINATO PORTED BEHIND HIM? 

Are you finally suggesting Nagato's ST is faster than Obito's Kamui activation? 



> What makes you think Nagato was in control of his body at any time? Kabuto commanded him to blitz unless you think a cripple is willingly going to into CqC against Killer B (after Nagato witnessed what him pushing back Itachi)


You're insinuating a mastermind in Kabuto told Nagato to blitz while crippled instead of Nagato telling himself to? Do you have evidence or is this just bullshit as usual?

In short, you have no evidence Nagato wasn't in control of his body. In accordance, since it's such an absurd argument to begin with, by default, I win the argument. 



> Becuase his paths can casually be revived? Yeah he can treat them recklessly without a care in the world. Nagato rushed to save Konan, not attack Hanzo


That's your argument? My argument is even after his revival path was destroyed he continued to battle Naruto with only Preta and a weakened Deva. Your point is moot, he's fighting a random fodder while fully healthy and he summons a colossal beast to start? You're... well, slow? 



> He summoned against fodder when he invaded Konoha > your examples


He summoned because he was fighting an entire military force. Are you kidding me dude? 

Nagato: "Fuck it, let's take on the 10,000 leaf ninja, Anbu and Hokage with 6 dudes. No Summons!"



> Why are you giving me examples of the _Pein Rikudo_ individually fighting? They fight as a unit and when fighting as a unit the summon


Because Nagato chose to seclude them without full knowledge on his opponents? Is that not a valid example of his recklessness? 



> And Nagato summoned once again... against fodders when he invaded Konoha


Oh, you mean when he alone invaded the most decorated shinobi village in the five nations? I guess doing it without summons would still be possible? 



> War orphan physcopath vs. brute Raikage...... who do you think is more battle hardened and has more experience in war


I didn't know "Brute Raikage" was a valid mindset/personality.

*brute* 
/bro͞ot/
Noun
A savagely violent person or animal: "he was a cold-blooded brute".
Adjective
Unreasoning and animallike.
Synonyms
noun.  	beast - animal
adjective.  	brutal - brutish - bestial - beastly - animal

In spite of your inaccurate and completely illogical assessment of the 4th Raikage's mindset, I'll allow google to answer it for you anyway. At this rate, I'd be happy to personally debate the mindsets of A and Nagato on another thread and handsomely destroy you in the argument of which is more warrior-like. There is arguably no one with a stronger mental will than A currently living. 



> Your right becuase he fights with his _Pein Rikudo_, not himself........ I.e he can be overconfident and cocky. Technically, if we want to stick to the _rules_ of the manga Minato would be fighting the _Pein Rikudo_ before Nagato


In short, you have nothing suggesting the behaviors dictated by Deva and others weren't exactly what Nagato would do himself. 



> You mean because Tendo was _literally_ powerless and was literally incapable of anything save taijutsu..... re read DavWiz


In short, a weakened Tendo with full power scale knowledge of Kakashi decides to move in with a kick instead of regrouping with his other paths.

Moral of story: Nagato is highly reckless and borderline pre-skip Naruto intelligent. 



> And this is assuming a kunai even reaches Nagato in the first place seeing IC he uses ST or Summons to deflect/block projectiles


Kunai? Lol.

Minato and Nagato shunshin in, Minato touches him, ports behind, and kills him. This is what happens IC, fully healthy, without knowledge 100 times out of 100.


----------



## Joakim3 (Feb 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> He had detailed knowledge that Sage Chakra increases speed and strength.
> 
> Nagato believes he can defend himself against a man who disappears from full view? Interesting.



And how many other things can SM Naruto do that Nagato didn't know about?

Nagato believes he can do a lot of things, as he fights through dead bodies, not himself



DaVizWiz said:


> I'm actually quite sure no knowledge means no knowledge at all. If your logic were correct, every simulation with Akatsuki members would now change because they were wearing clouded cloaks. More importantly, I believe Minato usually fights in a leaf flak jacket with normal military apparel. Hiruzen, Tobirama, Sarutobi and Tsunade have their own specific armors and costumes which don't consist of a Hokage cloak, as shown in the latest chapter when the latter kages were brought back from the grave. Minato's cloak canonically was shown in his closet back home.
> 
> Ok we agree then.



Yeah no knowledge means no knowledge on the specific character..... not oblivious to general information. So yes if a character fights an Akatsuki member then they are fully capable of realizing said person is a threat via cloak alone (assuming the character knows the general threat of an Akatsuki member)

Minato willingly put on his cloak to attack Obito and he is most known attire.



DaVizWiz said:


> Are you serious? Obito failed because he was astronomically stressed that Minato had just shitted on him and by the time he thought to defend himself he was already hit by the Rasengan.
> 
> 1. Because like Obito, he would be stressed by the obvious fact a dude just disappeared.
> 2. He doesn't know he's behind him?



He was completely confident in wrapping him in the exchanged, he failed because he *forgot* Minato could teleport to moving Kunai. And again with his current feats, he would not succumb to the same fate

Nagato would only have to deal with #1, if shared vision is up which it automatically would be if he's using his paths or he IC summons that #2 is moot



DaVizWiz said:


> Knew detailed knowledge on his techniques and power scale.
> Naruto summoned first.
> Terrible motive against a healing god.
> Kabuto didn't specifically tell him to move into CQC. Meaning a cripple Nagato still prefers close contact shunshins.
> ...



So Nagato IC summons to get away from Naruto & Killer B and then does a 180% mindset flip and attempts to blitz Killer B after ST? yeah.... I think its canon that Kabuto was directed every single action Nagato did after he erased his memory

Again trying to compare his _Pein Rikudo_ with Nagato is not valid, it's canon he fights differently with them then when he does himself. 

Nagato can afford to blitz with a path because he knows if anything happens to it he can revive it, he can't revive himself i.e he is not stupidly rushing gung ho



DaVizWiz said:


> Not very well I might add. Nonetheless, Nagato allowed them to.
> 
> Almost all of them do.
> 
> ...



He put them in danger because Shurado (the main Taijustu body) was out of commission and Tendo was powerless, he had no choice but to stall SM Naruto... i.e sending the paths in 1 by 1, rather than simultaneously 



DaVizWiz said:


> In short, you have no canon evidence.



IC, Nagato goes for a swift rod kill on random fodders and S-ranks alike. 

I wouldn't. Rasengan and Yomi Numa could still be used. 

In short, taijutsu is a primary for Nagato. [/QUOTE]

You have no evidence what a mobile healthy Nagato would do other than his actions the a "immortal" _Pein Rikudo_ and being controlled by Kabuto. Nagato only goes for Taijustu if either #1 the Path is solitary, #2 he has to stall for Tendo, or #3 he finds an opening during a cluster fuck

None of which are comparable to this scenario



DaVizWiz said:


> And Nagato is healthy with a full powered Rinnegan, highly egotistical in his mindset and a fodder is blocking his path, why would he be reckless? Hmmmm, that's a tough one.
> 1. Bombs a city severely weakening his paths before obtaining Naruto.
> 2. Blitzes a village as a primary military tactic to find one man.
> 3. Deliberately angers Naruto to release Kyuubi, making his capture now impossible as 5 of his paths were previously eliminated.
> ...



And he did all of this with a immortal _Pein Rikudo_......... he's no different then Obito who planned on nuking Kakashi & Gai off the map at point blank. Point is both Obito & Nagato are HIGHLY aggressive with their paths, but extremely defensive when they themselves fight. 

One can fight very differently when his own body is safe from harm 



DaVizWiz said:


> Because Naruto was standing there? Because he doesn't know what Tsunade can do? Because it could be a trap?
> 
> Tendo attempted kicking him because Kakashi disarmed him initially. That's a blitz, and a choice for taijutsu as a primary alone instead of regrouping.



Naruto was not standing their? He was 50+ meters behind Tsunade on top of Gamabunta....

You do realize CqC exchange =/= blitzing

Itachi using _Shunshin_ against Killer B is a blitz
Sasuke using _Shunshin_ against Deidara is a blitz
RM Naruto using _Shunshin_ against Kisame is a blitz

Tendo attacking Kakashi after Kakashi physically engaged him is not a blitz



DaVizWiz said:


> Kabuto didn't tell him to blitz, he told him to attack.
> 
> That doesn't take away the fact that Nagato chose to attack with him.
> 
> Yes it does? His paths dictate his mindset and choice patterns. At this point if you can't understand Nagato is highly invested in Taijutsu as a primary then you are simply a fanboy adjusting his mindset to ensure a victory in a clear loss here.



Kabuto didn't tell him to do anything, he was LITERALLY controlling his actions.

His paths indicate his mindset when he is controlling his _Pein Rikudo_, not what he himself does. He can take FAR greater risk with remote control bodies than he can with his own.... why that is hard to understand I don't know?


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## ImSerious (Feb 6, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Thank you ImSerious for just confirming KN6 *failed* to reacted to _Shinra Tensei_ *activation*
> 
> In short if KN6 couldn't react to the activation (nor the wave since it's invisible), that means by virtue of logic it had to react to the only other thing moving.... Tendo's hand
> 
> You make things so easy



what is this i dont even...

KN6 did react to ST's activation, hence why he thrusted his tails into the ground.


----------



## Joakim3 (Feb 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Fail.
> 
> He knew Naruto was a Sage, just like Jiraiya. He knew Naruto had the capacity to summon the same frogs as Jiraiya. He knew naruto was a jinchuriki for the leaf. He knew Pa had previous knowledge on his paths.
> 
> ...



Becuase once again Tendo & Shurado were out of commission.....

Nagato was crippled at the age of >25, i.e before Naruto was even born... he's been using the _Pein Rikudo_ most of his fighting life



DaVizWiz said:


> Your statements are ridiculously delusional, I proved he had detailed knowledge on Naruto's power scale and chose to blitz in regardless.
> 
> Are we going to go in circles now? You're the biggest Nagato fanboy on the forum- FACT. This dude isn't summoning against a RANDOMIZED INDIVIDUAL WHILE HEALTHY.



He once again choose to blitz because Tendo & Shurado could not be used

Thats great I'm a fanboy, and I accept it with all the pride... And you basing him not summoning solely through what he does through his Paths



DaVizWiz said:


> Why the fuck are you assuming he'll summon then? You literally just said he hasn't blitzed for 16+ years yet you're now saying we have zero knowledge what he would do with full mobility? You're all over the place.
> 
> What is this? What does that have to do with a single man blocking the path of a fully healthy Nagato?



Lol now we have upgraded to cursing... I never said he hasn't blitzed, I said he hasn't don't it with his OWN BODY. We literally have zero knowledge what he does with his own healthy body in a IC state



DaVizWiz said:


> Nope, he already did. I'll post the scan if you want. Though then again, we've already debated this before, you remember, and you're just bullshitting your way through this debate.
> 
> Naruto dodged it twice, say the word and I'll post the chapters where he did.
> 
> ...



Not really...

There was no scan of Tsunade being hit by CST, yet she we know she was was..... your point?



DaVizWiz said:


> We have a full idea of what he does, because he's highly reckless against opponents he has knowledge on while unhealthy. You're suggesting he decides to be highly cautious against a random individual while healthy without knowledge? What the fuck? You might be retarded.
> 
> So much stupidity.



He's highly reckless with a group of 6 undead zombies while he camps out in a tree miles away...... and that translates how to him fighting with his own body. You calling me retarded only shows your immaturity in this debate



DaVizWiz said:


> ARE YOU SUGGESTING OBITO'S KAMUI WAS SLOWER WHEN HE FOUGHT MINATO?
> 
> ARE YOU SUGGESTING OBITO FORGOT ABOUT KUNAI WARPING?
> 
> ARE YOU IGNORING THE FACT OBITO STILL COULDN'T REACT WITH KAMUI AFTER ASSESSING MINATO PORTED BEHIND HIM?



Yeah..... seeing he was a teenager, not 32 with god knows how many years of battle experience to improve. Obito forgot about Minato being able to wrap to moving kunai, re-read the manga 

So a teenage old Obito = 32 yr old battle experience Rin'negan weilding BM Naruto reacting Obito in your mind how again?



DaVizWiz said:


> You're insinuating a mastermind in Kabuto told Nagato to blitz while crippled instead of Nagato telling himself to? Do you have evidence or is this just bullshit as usual?
> 
> In short, you have no evidence Nagato wasn't in control of his body. In accordance, since it's such an absurd argument to begin with, by default, I win the argument.



Yeah.... in the same way a mastermind of Kabuto forget Itachi was still on the field? You have zero evidence saying he was, seeing every action he did indicates Kabuto was directly controlling him



DaVizWiz said:


> That's your argument? My argument is even after his revival path was destroyed he continued to battle Naruto with only Preta and a weakened Deva. Your point is moot, he's fighting a random fodder while fully healthy and he summons a colossal beast to start? You're... well, slow?
> 
> He summoned because he was fighting an entire military force. Are you kidding me dude?



Tendo's powers kicked in literally after Jigukudo was killed... so he kinda had no choice but to fight with Gakido & Tendo. Your point is moot as we have no scan of what a healthy Nagato IC would do



DaVizWiz said:


> Nagato: "Fuck it, let's take on the 10,000 leaf ninja, Anbu and Hokage with 6 dudes. No Summons!"
> 
> Because Nagato chose to seclude them without full knowledge on his opponents? Is that not a valid example of his recklessness?



Nagato canonically showed Tendo alone could have wiped out Konoha if he choose too. Nagato secludes himself whenever he uses the _Pein Rikudo_? whether it be fodder or kages. It's an entirely valid reason for recklessness

I can be as reckless as won't to be when fighting through a third party as I am at no point vulnerable. When I myself engage I *can* be harmed regardless of how strong I know/think I am.... thus an automatic mindset change would incur 



DaVizWiz said:


> Oh, you mean when he alone invaded the most decorated shinobi village in the five nations? I guess doing it without summons would still be possible?



Yeah with dead bodies.... not himself, I.e he does not like to engage in combat directly even though he is completely capable of it



DaVizWiz said:


> I didn't know "Brute Raikage" was a valid mindset/personality.
> 
> *brute*
> /bro͞ot/
> ...



"A savagely violent person or animal"

um maybe it's just me.... but that seems like a mindset?



DaVizWiz said:


> In spite of your inaccurate and completely illogical assessment of the 4th Raikage's mindset, I'll allow google to answer it for you anyway. At this rate, I'd be happy to personally debate the mindsets of A and Nagato on another thread and handsomely destroy you in the argument of which is more warrior-like.



Ei mindset is rash and he literally blitz every opponent he's ever engaged. Wether it was Sasuke, Minato, Jugo, RM Naruto or Madara. Yes becuase your "destroying me" so wonderfully know with your random shouting and yelling and highly fallible responses  



DaVizWiz said:


> In short, you have nothing suggesting the behaviors dictated by Deva and others weren't exactly what Nagato would do himself.
> 
> In short, a weakened Tendo with full power scale knowledge of Kakashi decides to move in with a kick instead of regrouping with his other paths.



Yeah I do in the fact that Nagato opts to use a dead body rather then himself. And he logically can be more carless when controlling a dead boy then he could be when fighting himself 

Full power scale knowledge? Nagato said he was honored to meet him and knew he had the sharingan... thats it. Um the other paths where engaged with the rest of the village or searching for Naruto (like Tendo was) and Tendo did regroup with Shurado?



DaVizWiz said:


> Moral of story: Nagato is highly reckless and virtually insane.
> Kunai? Lol.
> 
> Minato and Nagato shunshin in, Minato touches him, ports behind, and kills him.



Moral of the story is Nagato is highly reckless and insane when using his _Pein Rikudo_, not himself. Again what makes you think Nagato wouldn't just flatten Minato with _Shinra Tensei_ second he attempted to _Shunshin_ in the same way he did Hinata


----------



## Joakim3 (Feb 6, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> what is this i dont even...
> 
> KN6 did react to ST's activation, hence why he thrusted his tails into the ground.



....sigh, so please explain how KN6 reacted to something invisible with no chakra in it again?

seeing gravity isn't something you can, you know see


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2013)

> And how many other things can SM Naruto do that Nagato didn't know about?


Which is exactly why Nagato shouldn't have been careless. But that pattern did not change until the very end where instead of cutting his ties and running, he waited for Naruto to come and end him. 



> Nagato believes he can do a lot of things, as he fights through dead bodies, not himself


His dead bodies are his only means of strength, you act as if his mindset while using them would be astronomically different than if he was in his own healthy body. You act as if he could be useful without his paths while cripple and nearly dead. You act as if he treats them as replaceable? 



> Yeah no knowledge means no knowledge on the specific character..... not oblivious to general information. So yes if a character fights an Akatsuki member then they are fully capable of realizing said person is a threat via cloak alone (assuming the character knows the general threat of an Akatsuki member)


This really isn't true at all. There are several hundred debates to prove such wrong. 

Kakashi vs. Hidan without knowledge.

Kakashi: "Shit he's got an Akatsuki cloak, better go all out". 
Hidan: "Shit, he's got a Sharingan just like Itachi. Better watch out." 

This doesn't happen. 



> Minato willingly put on his cloak to attack Obito and he is most known attire.


Minato was defending his country and his family. More importantly, it's highly unlikely Minato prefers the Hokage cloak over military apparel when in battle. He wasn't wearing it when he fought B and A, he didn't wear it Gaiden, he wasn't wearing it when Naruto was being born. 

The only time he wore it was when his village was under attack and his family was kidnapped. In all seriousness, it's highly likely Kishimoto made Minato put it on just for Minato fans. 



> He was completely confident in wrapping him in the exchanged, he failed because he *forgot* Minato could teleport to moving Kunai. And again with his current feats, he would not succumb to the same fate


He didn't forget entirely, he stopped focusing on the kunai once it went through him and instead focused on grappling his arm.

With an adjusted mind state, he would not succumb to the same fate. An inferiority complex and excitement in defeating his master/the greatest shinobi of all time distracted him from the obvious fact the kunai was still behind him. 



> Nagato would only have to deal with #1, *if shared vision is up which it automatically would* be if he's using his paths or he IC summons that #2 is moot


It won't be up, at all. This much is virtually guaranteed. 



> So Nagato IC summons to get away from Naruto & Killer B and then does a 180% mindset flip and attempts to blitz Killer B after ST? yeah.... *I think its canon* that Kabuto was directed every single action Nagato did after he erased his memory


You surely do think. Doesn't mean it's actually canon. 



> Again trying to compare his _Pein Rikudo_ with Nagato is not valid, *it's canon he fights differently with them then when he does himself.*


Again canon? It's not canon, which is why we're debating it. If it was canon, there would be no debate happening. You have no evidence suggesting his paths did not imitate exactly what Nagato's IC healthy motives would be. 



> Nagato can afford to blitz with a path because he knows if anything happens to it he can revive it, he can't revive himself i.e he is not stupidly rushing gung ho


That's just an excuse dude. Surely it's relevant, but the fact still remains once the revival path was destroyed he continued recklessly attacking SM Naruto. He then baited 9 tails out with only Deva there, no shared vision, no revival path. What you're eluding to is virtual nonsense. Nagato's psyche is that of a psychopath who wasn't concerned whether or not he had a backup in a revival path. 



> He put them in danger because Shurado (the main Taijustu body) was out of commission and Tendo was powerless, he had no choice but to stall SM Naruto... i.e sending the paths in 1 by 1, rather than simultaneously


He was in that position because he chose to be. He chose to weaken Tendo, he chose to blitz and lose Shurado, he chose to stay while entirely vulnerable and fight. These are his choices, the choices of a highly reckless and irrational individual. 



> You have no evidence what a mobile healthy Nagato would do other than his actions the a "immortal" _Pein Rikudo_ and being controlled by Kabuto. Nagato only goes for Taijustu if either #1 the Path is solitary, #2 he has to stall for Tendo, or #3 he finds an opening during a cluster fuck


I have examples suggesting a healthy Nagato would. 

Nagato goes for Taijutsu as a primary against every single opponent he has fought without knowledge. This is definite canon.



> And he did all of this with a immortal _Pein Rikudo_......... he's no different then Obito who planned on nuking Kakashi & Gai off the map at point blank. Point is both Obito & Nagato are HIGHLY aggressive with their paths, but extremely defensive when they themselves fight.


Did Obito act differently then his paths? He blitzed after KCM Naruto alone with Kakashi and Gai present. 

Having the power to do away with a distraction via path nuking does not mean Obito is less aggressive in his own skin. Obito is highly conservative, such was obvious when he attacked with his paths in base first, then in V1, then in V2, then in full form. What you call aggressive, canon calls sequence. It should also be noted he did not use a single Rinnegan technique during that entire encounter, how the fuck is that aggressive? 



> Naruto was not standing their? He was 50+ meters behind Tsunade on top of Gamabunta....


What difference would that make to a Sage with extreme speed? Bottom line being he chose to blitz in as a primary knowing Tsunade's power scale instead of lasering her down from a defensive stationary position. 



> You do realize CqC exchange =/= blitzing


No, actually I don't. Blitzing means I prefer CQC as a primary as much as CQC means I prefer blitzing as a primary. You don't blitz unless you are skilled in CQC. 



> Itachi using _Shunshin_ against Killer B is a blitz
> Sasuke using _Shunshin_ against Deidara is a blitz
> RM Naruto using _Shunshin_ against Kisame is a blitz
> 
> Tendo attacking Kakashi after Kakashi physically engaged him is not a blitz


Yes it is? He shunshin'd kicked toward Kakashi instead of moving back to regroup with his other paths. He chose to take Sharingan Kakashi, a household ninja name on alone with another ninja in the vicinity (Iruka) and any other number of ninja nearby (Choji's company). 



> Kabuto didn't tell him to do anything, he was LITERALLY controlling his actions.


This isn't canon. Nothing suggests he was 100% the decision maker in moving Nagato into CQC. 



> His paths indicate his mindset when he is controlling his _Pein Rikudo_, not what he himself does. He can take FAR greater risk with remote control bodies than he can with his own.... why that is hard to understand I don't know?


No one suggested there is less risk, I suggested risk is irrelevant in Nagato's mindset. 

In this simulation you argue a healthy Nagato summons colossal beasts against a randomized man standing in front of him to obtain shared vision, then you argue his path's have not once emulated an ounce of his own desires tactically in blitzing, then you argue a psychopathic crybaby in Nagato is mentally stronger than a decorated war veteran, son of the 3rd Raikage, a village leader, THE leader of every ninja in the world, the 4th Raikage, then you argue Nagato will use Shinra Tensei when Minato appears behind him either via sensing or summoned shared vision that probably won't be behind him as summons generally appear in front of the user, then you later fail to argue how Minato will eventually lose to this opponent as you are so caught up in your own bullshit that you have yet to step over it because you yourself can't believe what's coming out of your mouth right now. You got yourself in a shitty, losing quote war that you simply need to cut your loses in and move on.


----------



## Joakim3 (Feb 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Which is exactly why Nagato shouldn't have been careless. But that pattern did not change until the very end where instead of cutting his ties and running, he waited for Naruto to come and end him.
> 
> His dead bodies are his only means of strength, you act as if his mindset while using them would be astronomically different than if he was in his own healthy body. You act as if he could be useful without his paths while cripple and nearly dead. You act as if he treats them as replaceable?



IHe was crippled and emaciated (minus Chakra Rods) and foddered Killer B in within seconds, thats far from "helpless." 

Nagato does treat them as replaceable seeing he casually looks/looked on as his paths were mowed down 1 by 1 and they can and are replaced in the future if he looses them. 

He only cares about Tendo as it's his best friends body, thats all



DaVizWiz said:


> This really isn't true at all. There are several hundred debates to prove such wrong.
> 
> Kakashi vs. Hidan without knowledge.
> 
> ...



And there are several hundred debates that prove this right. When someone thinks of know knowledge they don't know of their specific abilities. If the guy your about to fight as a navy seal vest on your are GOING to think different without direct knowledge on the individual

And yes it does happen... in almost every debate?



DaVizWiz said:


> Minato was defending his country and his family. More importantly, it's highly unlikely Minato prefers the Hokage cloak over military apparel when in battle. He wasn't wearing it when he fought B and A, he didn't wear it Gaiden, he wasn't wearing it when Naruto was being born.
> 
> The only time he wore it was when his village was under attack and his family was kidnapped. In all seriousness, it's highly likely Kishimoto made Minato put it on just for Minato fans.



Naruto was born in piece time...... and yet he felt the need to put it on to engage Obito? It's a symbol as the hokage, hell he was revived with his cloack on 



DaVizWiz said:


> He didn't forget entirely, he stopped focusing on the kunai once it went through him and instead focused on grappling his arm.
> 
> With an adjusted mind state, he would not succumb to the same fate. An inferiority complex and excitement in defeating his master/the greatest shinobi of all time distracted him from the obvious fact the kunai was still behind him.



He still forgot he could teleport to a moving Kunai? Had that been current Obito he would have simply stayed intangible during that entire exchange. 

Thats great he has an inferiority complex to his master due to being a teenager, current Obito is LEAGUES ahead of the one that Minato fought



DaVizWiz said:


> It won't be up, at all. This much is virtually guaranteed.
> 
> You surely do think. Doesn't mean it's actually canon.
> 
> Again canon? It's not canon, which is why we're debating it. If it was canon, there would be no debate happening. You have no evidence suggesting his paths did not imitate exactly what Nagato's IC healthy motives would be.



Um if it's the paths (which in canon it would be) then It's automatically up as Nagato lines them up to cover their rears. You have no evidence saying the paths IC motives would be exactly identical to Nagato's. 

Their are six bodies that can be easily replaced on a whim compared to oops I fucked up now I'm dead



DaVizWiz said:


> That's just an excuse dude. Surely it's relevant, but the fact still remains once the revival path was destroyed he continued recklessly attacking SM Naruto. He then baited 9 tails out with only Deva there, no shared vision, no revival path. What you're eluding to is virtual nonsense. Nagato's psyche is that of a psychopath who wasn't concerned whether or not he had a backup in a revival path.



What else could the Tendo & Gakido do?

And once again........... Nagato was km upon km away safe from harm during all of this. Yeah I can talk shit to a waring demon through a highly pimped out television set. 



DaVizWiz said:


> He was in that position because he chose to be. He chose to weaken Tendo, he chose to blitz and lose Shurado, he chose to stay while entirely vulnerable and fight. These are his choices, the choices of a highly reckless and irrational individual.



Again he is reckless because they are dead bodies and can be replaced? Nagato can loose every path, find six random fodders then next day, make them his new _Pein Rikudo_ and go right back on with his killing spree

He is not reckless when fighting himself, as shown in his defensive nature against Naruto & Killer B (even when he still has the ability to oneshot them with CST on whim)



DaVizWiz said:


> I have examples suggesting a healthy Nagato would.
> 
> Nagato goes for Taijutsu as a primary against every single opponent he has fought without knowledge. This is definite canon.
> 
> Did Obito act differently then his paths? He blitzed after KCM Naruto alone with Kakashi and Gai present.



Again using his _Pein Rikudo_, something that eliminates ALL risk to the user. Nagato goes for CqC when using his paths, not himself. 

Um yes.... he fell back and had all 6 simultaneously engage in CqC with Killer B & RM Naruto to the point the laters had to retreat. Obito stayed by and protect Gedo Mazo, at no point did he do the initial blitzing until he was forced to fight all 3 



DaVizWiz said:


> Having the power to do away with a distraction via path nuking does not mean Obito is less aggressive in his own skin. Obito is highly conservative, such was obvious when he attacked with his paths in base first, then in V1, then in V2, then in full form. What you call aggressive, canon calls sequence. It should also be noted he did not use a single Rinnegan technique during that entire encounter, how the fuck is that aggressive?



Obito is HIGHLY aggressive with his _Pein Rikudo_? The first thing he did was swarm Killer B & Naruto in V1 forms with all 6 Bodies, Nagato waited until Jiraiya was half dead to do the same

Blame it on plot..... It's the same reason Madara doesn't use _Shinra Tensei_, or Edo Nagato didn't use CST. It's not fun when the villian can casually obliterate the heroes even though logically they can



DaVizWiz said:


> What difference would that make to a Sage with extreme speed? Bottom line being he chose to blitz in as a primary knowing Tsunade's power scale instead of lasering her down from a defensive stationary position.
> 
> No, actually I don't. Blitzing means I prefer CQC as a primary as much as CQC means I prefer blitzing as a primary. You don't blitz unless you are skilled in CQC.



So now attacking a virtually defenseless and exhuasted Tsuande =/= blitzing a completely healthy unknown shinobi 

Um no... Blitzing is the act *charging* ahead into battle via the usage of speed/power i.e what Taka Sasuke & Kisame love to do. A CqC exchange is simply how one handles/how proficient one is at dealing with CqC... simple as that



DaVizWiz said:


> Yes it is? He shunshin'd kicked toward Kakashi instead of moving back to regroup with his other paths. He chose to take Sharingan Kakashi, a household ninja name on alone with another ninja in the vicinity (Iruka) and any other number of ninja nearby (Choji's company).



Shunshin kicked?.... Kakashi was literally grabbing Tendo's chakra rod and face to face with him, why wouldn't Tendo use CqC to remove him

Um Tendo immediately started nuking with _Shinra Tensei_ when he became overwhelmed and Nagato sent Shurado to aid Tendo.



DaVizWiz said:


> This isn't canon. Nothing suggests he was 100% the decision maker in moving Nagato into CQC.
> 
> No one suggested there is less risk, I suggested risk is irrelevant in Nagato's mindset.



Nothing suggest Nagato was in control of his body? Like every other Edo Tensei he has directly controlled. Risk is HIGHLY relevant as thats the reason he uses his _Pein Rikudo_ and not his own body.



DaVizWiz said:


> In this simulation you argue a healthy Nagato summons colossal beasts against a randomized man standing in front of him to obtain shared vision, then you argue his path's have not once emulated an ounce of his own desires tactically in blitzing, then you argue a psychopathic crybaby in Nagato is mentally stronger than a decorated war veteran, son of the 3rd Raikage, a village leader, THE ninja alliance leader 4th Raikage, then you argue Nagato will use Shinra Tensei when Minato appears behind him either via sensing or summoned shared vision that probably won't be behind him as summons generally appear in front of the user, then you later fail to argue how Minato will eventually lose to this opponent as you are so caught up in your own bullshit that you have yet to step over it because you yourself can't believe what's coming out of your mind right now.



There is not such thing as a healthy Nagato thus we don't know his IC mindset, thus you substitute his _Pein Rikudo_ "mindset." For all we know a IC healthy Nagato can be aggressive as Ei or defensive as Katsuya

You believe that Nagato would do the exact same thing as his Pein Rikudo, in the same circumstance when logic dictates he wouldn't seeing he's more vulnerable when fighting himself

You believe that the Raikage, who literally gave up against Minato & Madara, and became so emotionally consumed he was going to kill himself to take out Sasuke is mentally more fit in combat than Nagato...... someone who's life solely revolved around it since childhood

Nagato can place summons? He summoned the Panda, Crab behind Chikushodo and summoned Gedo Mazo, Cerberus & 3-Legged Bird behind himself

I don't need to argue how Minato loses as it's not very hard for Nagato to counter _Hirashin_ if he survives or counters the first attempt


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2013)

> Nagato was crippled at the age of >25, i.e before Naruto was even born... he's been using the _Pein Rikudo_ most of his fighting life


This is canon? News to me. 



> He once again choose to blitz because Tendo & Shurado could not be used


Instead of falling back? Oh my. Nagato, you are brilliant. Run in while vulnerable instead of regrouping? An even better argument while healthy. 



> Thats great I'm a fanboy, and I accept it with all the pride... And you basing him not summoning solely through what he does through his Paths


And logic of course, a healthy Jiraiya doesn't summon on randoms, neither does Naruto, or Tsunade, or Sasuke, or Orochimaru, or Danzo, or any other S-rank that has generally no reason to ascend to high scale fighting immediately. 



> Lol now we have upgraded to cursing... I never said he hasn't blitzed, I said he hasn't don't it with his OWN BODY. We literally have zero knowledge what he does with his own healthy body in a IC state


Are you offended by it? I've debated with you long enough to know you give two shits whether or not I curse as you spam offensive emoticons on random debaters frequently.

If you did care, I'd just substitute the cursing with :S or any other ridiculous disrespectful facial expression that basically equates to a "You're retarded" message. 



> There was no scan of Tsunade being hit by CST, yet she we know she was was..... your point?


Is this english? 



> He's highly reckless with a group of 6 undead zombies while he camps out in a tree miles away...... and that translates how to him fighting with his own body. You calling me retarded only shows your immaturity in this debate


You label them as undead zombies. I label them as symbolic jewels and corpses of old friends of Nagato, his carriers of power and distributors of his will. There's generally no chance Nagato views them as replaceable bodies or toys of some sort. 



> Yeah..... seeing he was a teenager, not 32 with god knows how many years of battle experience to improve. Obito forgot about Minato being able to wrap to moving kunai, re-read the manga


He forgot the kunai was behind him, he did not forget that he could teleport to it. What you just posted is not canon evidence that the reason Obito was defeated was because he forgot entirely that Minato teleports through his kunai. 



> So a teenage old Obito = 32 yr old battle experience Rin'negan weilding BM Naruto reacting Obito in your mind how again?


Naruto is 16 years old... so is Sasuke. 

Is that a serious argument that Obito was considerably weaker as a teenager? 



> Yeah.... in the same way a mastermind of Kabuto forget Itachi was still on the field? You have zero evidence saying he was, seeing every action he did indicates Kabuto was directly controlling him


Seeing every action simply means he was more focused on Nagato's actions than Itachi's. It doesn't mean he literally ordered Nagato to move into CQC immediately. 



> Tendo's powers kicked in literally after Jigukudo was killed... so he kinda had no choice but to fight with Gakido & Tendo. Your point is moot as we have no scan of what a healthy Nagato IC would do


It's not moot at all. I've created a solid basis for what I believe Nagato would do IC, it is backed by scans. 



> Nagato canonically showed Tendo alone could have wiped out Konoha if he choose too. Nagato secludes himself whenever he uses the _Pein Rikudo_? whether it be fodder or kages. It's an entirely valid reason for recklessness


Tendo was nearly defeated by three ninja via a simple ambushing sequence. This dude would have no chance at soloing anyone of the villages in the manga, especially Konoha. 

Your logic is nothing more than circumstantial, Nagato by nature is a reckless individual, we saw this when he nuked the village for no apparent reason and I've provided examples via paths of how his decision making is questionable. 



> I can be as reckless as won't to be when fighting through a third party as I am at no point vulnerable. When I myself engage I *can* be harmed regardless of how strong I know/think I am.... thus an automatic mindset change would incur


Not particularly. Nagato has had a lot of time to sit on his throne as he has virtually never lost with his paths, or in general. His case is one of a spoiled champion that has the luxtury of making mistakes as he thinks his paths as a hole are untouchable at their core.

What you see as replaceable or expendable corpses I see as a means of power that no one has yet to tangibly challenge. The same can be said for himself while he's healthy. 



> Yeah with dead bodies.... not himself, I.e he does not like to engage in combat directly even though he is completely capable of it


Dead bodies. Dead bodies. Dead bodies. Oh, you mean his paths of pain. The only real means of his power. 

Completely capable of it? Lol 



> "A savagely violent person or animal"
> 
> um maybe it's just me.... but that seems like a mindset?


If such were true, that would describe every ninja in the manga. Are they not all savagely violent persons? 

A brute is not a detailed description of an individual's mindset or personality, because a brute is generally an animal. Is A an animal? Can he not think? Does he not have a family? Is he not the prime decision maker for the entire ninja alliance? You describe the leader of a village as a brute? 

You describe Nagato as a psychopathic battle hardened man. Yet you describe A as a Brute Raikage? What the fuck does that mean? Every Kage is brutish. They're all killers, that's why they're leaders of ninja. 



> Ei mindset is rash and he literally blitz every opponent he's ever engaged. Wether it was Sasuke, Minato, Jugo, RM Naruto or Madara. Yes becuase your "destroying me" so wonderfully know with your random shouting and yelling and highly fallible responses


Sasuke attacked his brother in his village and he's part of an organization that has terrorized his village for decades. He had backup from Darui and Shi, more importantly, A didn't attack him initially. So this point is moot. 

Against Minato A had backup in his brother and all he can do is blitz?

Juugo was defending Sasuke. 

RM Naruto wasn't an actual battle?

A blitzed Madara as a dual attack with the Mizukage clouding his vision with a lava spit. This, because Tsunade was busy healing an injured Onoki and Gaara. Is that Rash?  

A's mindset is rash because he blitzes his opponents? Interesting, because he has so many other options right? You failed to prove A as rash, you failed to give him a decent mindset/personality, and you will continue to fail at trying to convince me Nagato's psyche is more impressive. 



> Yeah I do in the fact that Nagato opts to use a dead body rather then himself. And he logically can be more carless when controlling a dead boy then he could be when fighting himself


And you've logically described Nagato as a psychopathic war child, yet you continue to assume his motives and decisions will be "logical" and "not reckless" when fighting another piece of garbage in Minato blocking his pathway? 



> Full power scale knowledge? Nagato said he was honored to meet him and knew he had the sharingan... thats it. Um the other paths where engaged with the rest of the village or searching for Naruto (like Tendo was) and Tendo did regroup with Shurado?


Itachi has the sharingan, Nagato is honored to meet someone and you believe those two to not be power scale knowledge? How about the fact Deva didn't see Kakashi coming until he grabbed his rod mid-thrust at Iruka? 

Shurado came after the initial bout between the two? 



> Moral of the story is Nagato is highly reckless and insane when using his _Pein Rikudo_, not himself. Again what makes you think Nagato wouldn't just flatten Minato with _Shinra Tensei_ second he attempted to _Shunshin_ in the same way he did Hinata


Lol Nagato flattens a random fodder while fully healthy? 

1. It wouldn't kill Minato, or any random fodder as no-durability ninja have survived ST. 
2. A highly egotistical Nagato is using Rinnengan techs on a no-name now?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2013)

> He was crippled and emaciated (minus Chakra Rods) and foddered Killer B in within seconds, thats far from "helpless."


He was also dead, painless and spewing chakra. A mortal cripple Nagato is spamming chakra sapping ST's and shunshining at full strength? 

If by "foddered" Killer B you mean getting obliterated by a V2 Lariat that would immediately kill a mortal man then you should look up that definition. 



> Nagato does treat them as replaceable seeing he casually looks/looked on as his paths were mowed down 1 by 1 and they can and are replaced in the future if he looses them.


He had no other choice but to look on, he was in mid-battle with a Jinchuriki Sage Mode clone specialist.



> And there are several hundred debates that prove this right. When someone thinks of know knowledge they don't know of their specific abilities. If the guy your about to fight as a navy seal vest on your are GOING to think different without direct knowledge on the individual


Do you understand the definition of No? "No Knowledge" means if Hidan is wearing a cloak Kakashi doesn't know about that cloak, because he has no knowledge on it. 



> And yes it does happen... in almost every debate?


No it doesn't? No knowledge means exactly what it sounds like. Dude against Dude. That's all. 



> Naruto was born in piece time...... and yet he felt the need to put it on to engage Obito? It's a symbol as the hokage, hell he was revived with his cloack on


That's because he died with it on? Notice how none of the other kages were brought back with it on, namely because 
1. They weren't wearing it when they died
2. They probably never wore it in battle

Notice how Itachi was brought back with an Akatsuki cloak on, because he died with it on, and because he fought with it always on. 



> He still forgot he could teleport to a moving Kunai? Had that been current Obito he would have simply stayed intangible during that entire exchange.


Then Minato stalemates? 



> Thats great he has an inferiority complex to his master due to being a teenager, current Obito is LEAGUES ahead of the one that Minato fought


We'll see. Highly doubtful since he defeated him already, it's probably worse now. 



> Um if it's the paths (which in canon it would be) then It's automatically up as Nagato lines them up to cover their rears. You have no evidence saying the paths IC motives would be exactly identical to Nagato's.


Lol automatically lined up to cover rears, because that's definitely the route when dealing with a random fodder. 

I don't have evidence, I have a logical argument, not a funnel of excuses. 



> Their are six bodies that can be easily replaced on a whim compared to oops I fucked up now I'm dead


Asura can't be replaced, Yahiko is a dear friend, the others were previous comrades. 

This is your funneled excuse for Nagato preferring CQC and blitzing though. 



> What else could the Tendo & Gakido do?


Fall back? 



> And once again........... Nagato was km upon km away safe from harm during all of this. Yeah I can talk shit to a waring demon through a highly pimped out television set.


Yeah, let me piss off arguably the most dominating being in the verse with a single path left back here at Mount Rathole where I have an estimated hour of life left and after battling the Kyuubi with a single path left I'll simply piggy-back Naruto to this location without an ounce of resistance from the remaining hundreds of leaf ninja still hanging around with detailed second-after reports from Byakugan scouts watching over with clear evidence that they're watching me as a retarded girl just shunshin'd in to save Naruto and Tsunade already shunshin'd in the middle of this battle. 



> He is not reckless when fighting himself, as shown in his defensive nature against Naruto & Killer B (even when he still has the ability to oneshot them with CST on whim)


Defensive Nature? He pulled Naruto with ST immediately at start battle. He was defensive mainly because he was a cripple and he knew Naruto/Bee were high ranked Jinchurikis. That is invalid in this simulation, Nagato is healthy and he has no knowledge. 



> Again using his _Pein Rikudo_, something that eliminates ALL risk to the user. Nagato goes for CqC when using his paths, not himself.


Dude you're speaking as if you clearly know such? Everything leads us to believe Nagato would clearly blitz in against some random fodder if he's healthy because that's what almost EVERY S-ranked highly egotistical ninja would do. 



> Um yes.... he fell back and had all 6 simultaneously engage in CqC with Killer B & RM Naruto to the point the laters had to retreat. Obito stayed by and protect Gedo Mazo, at no point did he do the initial blitzing until he was forced to fight all 3


Um.. no? Obito likely couldn't control them and fight at the same time. More importantly, he did blitz at Naruto and Bee after the paths defeated them. He also blitzed at them when Kakashi and Gai were present instead of falling back. 



> Obito is HIGHLY aggressive with his _Pein Rikudo_? The first thing he did was swarm Killer B & Naruto in V1 forms with all 6 Bodies, Nagato waited until Jiraiya was half dead to do the same


What? Naruto headbutted him, began irritating him and so Obito responded with the paths attacking in BASE first. Obito got annoyed, forced them into V1, then later V2 when Kakashi and Gai arrived, and finally full form when Naruto transformed. 



> So now attacking a virtually defenseless and exhuasted Tsuande =/= blitzing a completely healthy unknown shinobi


Virtually defenseless? She shunshin'd into the middle of the crater instantly and how would Nagato know she was exhausted?

Nagato blitzes a random fodder the same way Obito would. Nagato doesn't use ST the same way Obito wouldn't obliterate a random with a massive katon just to be "safe". 



> Um no... Blitzing is the act *charging* ahead into battle via the usage of speed/power i.e what Taka Sasuke & Kisame love to do. A CqC exchange is simply how one handles/how proficient one is at dealing with CqC... simple as that


Um.. what the fuck? Blitzing equates the use of CQC. When you charge at someone it generally means you're attempting to close the distance, when closing a distance you get closer and closer to close quarter combat, something you probably should be good at if you're running to it. 

You might be retarded if you think someone is blitzing without being trained in CQC. 



> Shunshin kicked?.... Kakashi was literally grabbing Tendo's chakra rod and face to face with him, why wouldn't Tendo use CqC to remove him


Why wouldn't he drop the rod and shunshin out? What the fuck kind of question is "Why wouldn't a weakened tendo alone shunshin at Kakashi with full knowledge of his power scale?" Do you really want an answer to that? 



> Um Tendo immediately started nuking with _Shinra Tensei_ when he became overwhelmed and Nagato sent Shurado to aid Tendo.


Tendo survived only because his rod interrupted Kakashi's chakra flow and temporarily blinded him. Sending Shurado doesn't mean tendo wasn't in danger for that lapse of time. This battle is a classic example of how reckless Nagato's mindset can be. 



> Nothing suggest Nagato was in control of his body? Like every other Edo Tensei he has directly controlled. Risk is HIGHLY relevant as thats the reason he uses his _Pein Rikudo_ and not his own body.


He uses paths because they can utilize shared vision and they're all able to shunshin and move whilst not being crippled. 

Risk is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to the decision making of Nagato canonically, such is obvious when profiling a psychopathic killer with nothing to live for. The careless nature is clear as day, and I firmly believe it would translate from his paths to a healthy Nagato's body in the blink of an eye.   



> There is not such thing as a healthy Nagato thus we don't know his IC mindset, thus you substitute his _Pein Rikudo_ "mindset." For all we know a IC healthy Nagato can be aggressive as Ei or defensive as Katsuya


You type as if this is some character we have no background or detailed knowledge on. 

1. He's a psychopath
2. He's careless in his use of his paths and prefers CQC
3. Tactically, he nuked a city to find a single man
4. He's a top-10 ninja in the history of the manga
5. He's never been defeated
6. He's fully healthy with the eyes of the maker of Ninjutsu himself

My conclusion: He treats Minato the same way he did Iruka with Deva, he moves in and kills him with a rod blitz (attempts). 



> You believe that the Raikage, who literally gave up against Minato & Madara, and became so emotionally consumed he was going to kill himself to take out Sasuke is mentally more fit in combat than Nagato...... someone who's life solely revolved around it since childhood


A gave up against Minato? A gave up against Madara? I'm pretty sure he reassured himself that he could defeat Minato even while he was porting. In the mist of combat his priorities shift to apologizing to B for "messing up" in CQC. I'm pretty sure he reassured the Mizukage when she gave up, and corrected Tsunade's fighting style in the mist of fighting 25 Madara clones. He never gave up until he was captured and put under Genjutsu by Madara. And even then he was only questioning reality and how he was defeated by Genjutsu, not Madara.    

I can go ahead and make a thread about this topic if you want? 



> Nagato can place summons? He summoned the Panda, Crab behind Chikushodo and summoned Gedo Mazo, Cerberus & 3-Legged Bird behind himself


Nagato: "Random dude in front of me, Imma summon this massive beast for no reason, but let me make sure it's behind me so if this dude somehow gets behind me I'll be able to see him." 



> I don't need to argue how Minato loses as it's not very hard for Nagato to counter _Hirashin_ if he survives or counters the first attempt


You surely do. Assuming someone defeats Minato because they discover the meaning or use behind it is a bad estimation.


----------



## Joakim3 (Feb 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> This is canon? News to me.
> 
> Instead of falling back? Oh my. Nagato, you are brilliant. Run in while vulnerable instead of regrouping? An even better argument while healthy.
> 
> And logic of course, a healthy Jiraiya doesn't summon on randoms, neither does Naruto, or Tsunade, or Sasuke, or Orochimaru, or Danzo, or any other S-rank that has generally no reason to ascend to high scale fighting immediately.



It's canon that Yahiko died around the age of ~25

Tell that to Nagato when he spammed his centipedes against fodders and Sakura.... none of who are S-Rank. Nagato uses summons as his form of shared vision something that is interrogated with his entires fighting style,  



DaVizWiz said:


> Are you offended by it? I've debated with you long enough to know you give two shits whether or not I curse as you spam offensive emoticons on random debaters frequently.
> 
> If you did care, I'd just substitute the cursing with :S or any other ridiculous disrespectful facial expression that basically equates to a "You're retarded" message.



Nope.... I find it rather funny that you feel the need capitalize half a paragraph to "prove" a point.  



DaVizWiz said:


> Is this english?
> 
> You label them as undead zombies. I label them as symbolic jewels and corpses of old friends of Nagato, his carriers of power and distributors of his will. There's generally no chance Nagato views them as replaceable bodies or toys of some sort.



So now the _Pein Rikudo_ bodies consist of friends of Nagato? Last time I checked Yahiko body is the only path that Nagato is sentimentally attached to, he willingly and readily sacrifices them to keep Tendo safe.

Nagato has bodies regularly delivered to his tower in the event he has to replace some, with the exception of Tendo, they are a just nothing more than a jutsu



DaVizWiz said:


> He forgot the kunai was behind him, he did not forget that he could teleport to it. What you just posted is not canon evidence that the reason Obito was defeated was because he forgot entirely that Minato teleports through his kunai.



Which explains why Minato had to explain V2 to Obito? He clearly did not realize Minato could teleport to a Kunai mid travel    



DaVizWiz said:


> Naruto is 16 years old... so is Sasuke.
> 
> Is that a serious argument that Obito was considerably weaker as a teenager?
> 
> Seeing every action simply means he was more focused on Nagato's actions than Itachi's. It doesn't mean he literally ordered Nagato to move into CQC immediately.



Both who are labeled prodigies like Mintao & Itachi. 

Are you seriously trying convince teenage Obito could simultaneously Kakashi, BM Naruto, Gai & Killer B at the same time



DaVizWiz said:


> It's not moot at all. I've created a solid basis for what I believe Nagato would do IC, it is backed by scans.
> 
> Tendo was nearly defeated by three ninja via a simple ambushing sequence. This dude would have no chance at soloing anyone of the villages in the manga, especially Konoha.



"Solid" in your opinion, it's far from infallible. Your basis for his IC actions are him using a highly unique method of combat for years, that removes every possible chance of danger to his person, and applying it to a theoretical version of Nagato

Show me scans of Nagato himself blitzing (when in control of his own body) and then we can argue what IC actions he does.



DaVizWiz said:


> Your logic is nothing more than circumstantial, Nagato by nature is a reckless individual, we saw this when he nuked the village for no apparent reason and I've provided examples via paths of how his decision making is questionable.
> 
> Not particularly. Nagato has had a lot of time to sit on his throne as he has virtually never lost with his paths, or in general. His case is one of a spoiled champion that has the luxtury of making mistakes as he thinks his paths as a hole are untouchable at their core.



Again reckless with a set of _Pein Rikudo_, something Hinato could show as she can't be hurt when using them? 

Why is this so hard to understand.... Nagato can affored to be reckless with paths because he can replace them and save for Tendo they mean little to him. He cannot and is not reckless when he himself fights as he CAN be killed

It's really not that hard of concept to grasp



DaVizWiz said:


> What you see as replaceable or expendable corpses I see as a means of power that no one has yet to tangibly challenge. The same can be said for himself while he's healthy.
> 
> Dead bodies. Dead bodies. Dead bodies. Oh, you mean his paths of pain. The only real means of his power.
> 
> Completely capable of it? Lol



Nagato regularly treats them as replaceable every time he revives one, sacrifices one to save Tendo, or replaces it with an entirely knew body within a matter of hours.

He was shown to be powerful enough to fodderize Killer B, while emaciated & crippled. He can do everything his paths can do through his own body... regardless of what state its in



DaVizWiz said:


> If such were true, that would describe every ninja in the manga. Are they not all savagely violent persons?
> 
> A brute is not a detailed description of an individual's mindset or personality, because a brute is generally an animal. Is A an animal? Can he not think? Does he not have a family? Is he not the prime decision maker for the entire ninja alliance? You describe the leader of a village as a brute?



Violent mindset =/= violent actions. 

Lets see.... bust through rooms without using a door, thinks with emotion rather than logic (i.e let me directly engage Kin/Gin rather than command the alliance), highly irrational when angered (willing to loss his leg to kill Sasuke)
Why can't the leader of a village be a brute, when their are MUCH worse things? 

Orochimaru was a nutjob... ran a village
Nagato was a psychopath... ran a village
Yagura, genjustu controlled war monger... ran a village

....shall I continue?



DaVizWiz said:


> You describe Nagato as a psychopathic battle hardened man. Yet you describe A as a Brute Raikage? What the fuck does that mean? Every Kage is brutish. They're all killers, that's why they're leaders of ninja.
> 
> Sasuke attacked his brother in his village and he's part of an organization that has terrorized his village for decades. He had backup from Darui and Shi, more importantly, A didn't attack him initially. So this point is moot.
> 
> Against Minato A had backup in his brother and all he can do is blitz?



No their not, Raikage is brutish in his actions and acts before he thinks 99% of the time. Even Nagato with all his insanity would run loops around Ei mentally in the same way Itachi or Kakashi would do the same to Nagato

Kisame, Jugo & Ei are what one would call a "brute," 



DaVizWiz said:


> Juugo was defending Sasuke.
> 
> RM Naruto wasn't an actual battle?
> 
> A blitzed Madara as a dual attack with the Mizukage clouding his vision with a lava spit. This, because Tsunade was busy healing an injured Onoki and Gaara. Is that Rash?



Ei had killer intent on Naruto.... thats battle

Great those are actions of him actually thinking, how many other actions has he done when he hasn't thought 



DaVizWiz said:


> A's mindset is rash because he blitzes his opponents? Interesting, because he has so many other options right? You failed to prove A as rash, you failed to give him a decent mindset/personality, and you will continue to fail at trying to convince me Nagato's psyche is more impressive.



Did you not see his actions against RM Naruto when he planned on killing RM Naruto and Killer B? Or against Sasuke for the last half of their fight.

Nagato invaded Konoha by himself, tricked the entire village into thinking their was one attacker (something only Shikaku, Shika & Kakashi realized) and simultaneously was changing frequency of his chakra to prevent sensors from finding him.... he is leagues above Ei in battle strategics or psyche



DaVizWiz said:


> And you've logically described Nagato as a psychopathic war child, yet you continue to assume his motives and decisions will be "logical" and "not reckless" when fighting another piece of garbage in Minato blocking his pathway?
> 
> Itachi has the sharingan, Nagato is honored to meet someone and you believe those two to not be power scale knowledge? How about the fact Deva didn't see Kakashi coming until he grabbed his rod mid-thrust at Iruka?



Thats fine, just like Madara & Obito are is a homocidal maniacs.... yet they are still intelligent. 

Strategy wise and analytical he is VERY smart. Nagato has never shown to view people as garbage hell he was repesctful right before killing Hanzo and after killing Jiraiya, and was honored to meet Kakashi

He's crazy/insane  in his self image and ideology, not in his day to day actions or mid battle. Maybe because Nagato was controlling his Paths in 6 different locations, multiple people and different times.... I'd think it's safe to assume he can get distracted or miss a few things controlling his _Pein Rikudo_ like that 



DaVizWiz said:


> Shurado came after the initial bout between the two?
> 
> Lol Nagato flattens a random fodder while fully healthy?
> 
> ...



Shurado came after Nagato deduced Tendo needed help

Minato was injured by a piece of wood, and it has one shotted SM clones...... who's durability feats a FAR more impressive then Minato's

He used _Shinra Tensei_ on Hinata... a "fodder" no name when she attempted to engage Tendo


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2013)

> It's canon that Yahiko died around the age of ~25


Because you definitely have his drivers license. 



> Tell that to Nagato when he spammed his centipedes against fodders and Sakura.... none of who are S-Rank. Nagato uses summons as his form of shared vision something that is interrogated with his entires fighting style,


Nagato summoned when he was invading the most accomplished ninja military in the manga right? 

Nope, Nagato summons when 
1. he invades countries 
2. when his opponent summons
3. when he fights with animal alone
4. when he fights S-ranks+



> Nope.... I find it rather funny that you feel the need capitalize half a paragraph to "prove" a point.


Don't do that frequently, only when I read something so absurdly ridiculous I feel the need to shout it in the face of the retard to who initially suggested it. 



> So now the _Pein Rikudo_ bodies consist of friends of Nagato? Last time I checked Yahiko body is the only path that Nagato is sentimentally attached to, he willingly and readily sacrifices them to keep Tendo safe.


Indeed, if I remember correctly each face is that of an original comrade who was canonically part of his early resistance against Hanzo. 



> Nagato has bodies regularly delivered to his tower in the event he has to replace some, with the exception of Tendo, they are a just nothing more than a jutsu


Nope, just the one path who replaced animal. 



> Which explains why Minato had to explain V2 to Obito? He clearly did not realize Minato could teleport to a Kunai mid travel


Minato ending the battle in a badass comment has nothing to do with the fact Obito was fully aware he could warp through kunai. 



> Are you seriously trying convince teenage Obito could simultaneously Kakashi, BM Naruto, Gai & Killer B at the same time


Teenage Obito shunshin'd at the speed of Minato, butt fucked Leaf Anbu, summoned the Kyuubi and controlled him with Genjutsu. What suggests he's any better now? 

Obito isn't a prodigy? 

Forget Naruto and Sasuke, 
Shikamaru, Choji, Neji, Lee, Sakura, Sai, Kankuro, Temari, Gaara, Ino -> All Jonin+ at age 16. And oh wait, they all weren't taught by a man who defines the very word power in Uchiha Madara. 

The average age of the shinobi alliance's commando unit was in all probability -> 17. 



> "Solid" in your opinion, it's far from infallible. Your basis for his IC actions are him using a highly unique method of combat for years, that removes every possible chance of danger to his person, and applying it to a theoretical version of Nagato


Nope, it's not just that. You see, like I've said before, probably several pages back, Nagato's psyche and background all go into it, along with the actions performed by his paths. What you fail to understand is we know all about Nagato's personality, it is one that would always underestimate. 



> Show me scans of Nagato himself blitzing (when in control of his own body) and then we can argue what IC actions he does.


Show me scans of him summoning against a random fodder alone without knowledge. 

I win.  



> Why is this so hard to understand.... Nagato can affored to be reckless with paths because he can replace them and save for Tendo they mean little to him. He cannot and is not reckless when he himself fights as he CAN be killed


He cannot be reckless while healthy? You're just fanboying at this point. Everything personality wise, background wise, and battle wise (paths) has led us to believe he would easily choose to blitz a fodder. 



> Nagato regularly treats them as replaceable every time he revives one, sacrifices one to save Tendo, or replaces it with an entirely knew body within a matter of hours.


New body within hours? What the fuck? This has never happened. 



> Lets see.... bust through rooms without using a door, thinks with emotion rather than logic (i.e let me directly engage Kin/Gin rather than command the alliance), highly irrational when angered (willing to loss his leg to kill Sasuke)
> Why can't the leader of a village be a brute, when their are MUCH worse things?


Let's see, Akatsuki invades a kage summit after hearing that Danzo may be controlling Mifune, Sasuke, the man who attacked his brother on his turf is here killing Samurai. 

Result: Dude punches through wall because he's pissed. 

I punch through walls breaking my hand for much less, am I now a brute? 

I know it's hard to believe, but A can be angry and think at the same time just like any other human. But let me beat the fuck out of your brother, then show up to your business meeting, would you care if you get hurt in the process of fucking me up?  



> Orochimaru was a nutjob... ran a village


Why?


> Nagato was a psychopath... ran a village


Why?


> Yagura, genjustu controlled war monger... ran a village


Why?



> ....shall I continue?


Feel free. Sadly you won't find a ninja who has lead all of the villages at once, as A is the only one with that on his resume. Clearly they decided the best thing to do was to name a "brute who thinks only with emotion" the leader of a force that would battle for the fate of the world. 

Your logic is absurd, I spit on it, while urinating a Joakim in the snow next to your residence. "  "



> No their not, Raikage is brutish in his actions and acts before he thinks 99% of the time. Even Nagato with all his insanity would run loops around Ei mentally in the same way Itachi or Kakashi would do the same to Nagato


What are you talking about? Raikage has fought 3 dudes in the manga, all S-rank, his only means of battle is blitzing. What is your basis for acts before he thinks? 



> Kisame, Jugo & Ei are what one would call a "brute,"


Generally because they're physically dominating, not because they don't think before they act. Kisame is a sound strategist along with A, Juugo isn't stupid, you make generally no sense. 



> Ei had killer intent on Naruto.... thats battle


That's a test, one Naruto passed. That's defending the world from a retarded kid who 5 nations just went to war to protect. That's a leader doing his duty. 



> Great those are actions of him actually thinking, how many other actions has he done when he hasn't thought


Zero? 



> Did you not see his actions against RM Naruto when he planned on killing RM Naruto and Killer B? Or against Sasuke for the last half of their fight.


Does that make him illogical or irrational? He was pissed when he fought Sasuke, he was annoyed and insulted when B and Naruto bypassed his barrier and ignored the orders of the leader of the alliance. Naruto was about to run off and get captured making the war pointless, and they would all die. Irrational to kill him? Nope.  



> Nagato invaded Konoha by himself, tricked the entire village into thinking their was one attacker (something only Shikaku, Shika & Kakashi realized) and simultaneously was changing frequency of his chakra to prevent sensors from finding him.... he is leagues above Ei in battle strategics or psyche


Holy shit, a lifetime to think this up all while he could have simply done recon or bribed to get information on his whereabouts from within the village.

His tactics were borderline suicidal and beyond retarded. Changing chakra frequencies is something he probably learned to do years ago against enemies. 



> Thats fine, just like Madara & Obito are is a homocidal maniacs.... yet they are still intelligent.


Nobody questioned Nagato's intelligence. He's highly intelligent, but an idiot nonetheless. His decision making is kiddish and fueled only by a desire to kill. 



> Strategy wise and analytical he is VERY smart. Nagato has never shown to view people as garbage hell he was repesctful right before killing Hanzo and after killing Jiraiya, and was honored to meet Kakashi


He views everyone as garbage. A lowly ant wouldn't get a word out of him right before he slaughters their family for information on Naruto's whereabouts. It's part of his psychopathic delusion, being nice and courteous doesn't mean you view people as anything more than flesh when you're sitting on the power throne.  



> He's crazy/insane  in his self image and ideology, not in his day to day actions or mid battle. Maybe because Nagato was controlling his Paths in 6 different locations, multiple people and different times.... I'd think it's safe to assume he can get distracted or miss a few things controlling his _Pein Rikudo_ like that


He's insane. He feels no remorse for killing others and in all reality does it to calm his own pain. Though he fights for the betterment of the world, he kills for his own motives, which is exactly why he nuked Naruto's village. 



> Minato was injured by a piece of wood, and it has one shotted SM clones...... who's durability feats a FAR more impressive then Minato's


Yet a point-blank ST did virtually nothing to Kakashi and Choji. 



> He used _Shinra Tensei_ on Hinata... a "fodder" no name when she attempted to engage Tendo


This after Nagato understood Hinata to be close to Naruto, the psychopath that he is deliberately set in to deal him further pain by slamming her deep in the earth rather than kicking her around. 

Tendo was also unarmed. I hope that's not your trump card as far as what a healthy Nagato would do IC?


----------



## Joakim3 (Feb 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> He was also dead, painless and spewing chakra. A mortal cripple Nagato is spamming chakra sapping ST's and shunshining at full strength?
> 
> If by "foddered" Killer B you mean getting obliterated by a V2 Lariat that would immediately kill a mortal man then you should look up that definition.
> 
> He had no other choice but to look on, he was in mid-battle with a Jinchuriki Sage Mode clone specialist.



A mortal Nagato was spamming attacks, nuking a village and then it's jin and revived the entire village while almost dead? even in that state he has more chakra than anyone bar other Rikudo's & Biju .... he is TIERS above people like Minato in chakra reserves even in _that_ state 

He would have absorbed the Lariate regardless of being an Edo or not.... seeing he stopped Killer B's momentum and absorbed it via _Fujustu Kuyin_



DaVizWiz said:


> Do you understand the definition of No? "No Knowledge" means if Hidan is wearing a cloak Kakashi doesn't know about that cloak, because he has no knowledge on it.
> 
> No it doesn't? No knowledge means exactly what it sounds like. Dude against Dude. That's all.
> 
> ...



Um no he has zero knowledge on Hidan he isn't stripped of excess knowledge like basic give away clothing. Thats like say he sees his scythe and has know knowledge the man carries a scythe or he sees a Hokage uniform and still doesn't know he's fighting a cage 



DaVizWiz said:


> Then Minato stalemates?
> 
> We'll see. Highly doubtful since he defeated him already, it's probably worse now.
> 
> Lol automatically lined up to cover rears, because that's definitely the route when dealing with a random fodder.



Um no.... Obito has _Izanami_, Rin'negan, _Mokuton_, _Pein Rikudo_ & Gedo Mazo..... Minato is raped into oblivion

He always lines the _Pein Rikudo_ so that at least one body is looking at the rear of another one(s) 



DaVizWiz said:


> I don't have evidence, I have a logical argument, not a funnel of excuses.
> 
> Asura can't be replaced, Yahiko is a dear friend, the others were previous comrades.
> 
> ...



Logic argument? 

Shurado is a power.... not a physical robot, It can be replaced like any other body. Yahiko was a person friend, the reason other paths protected it. Every other path was a person Jiraiya fought over the years, that Nagato coincidentally converted

Excuse? your saying Nagato would do the same action in an revivable body as he would in his real one. So by your logic.... Nagato would sacrifice himself to throw another path or summon out the way of an FRS   



DaVizWiz said:


> Yeah, let me piss off arguably the most dominating being in the verse with a single path left back here at Mount Rathole where I have an estimated hour of life left and after battling the Kyuubi with a single path left I'll simply piggy-back Naruto to this location without an ounce of resistance from the remaining hundreds of leaf ninja still hanging around with detailed second-after reports from Byakugan scouts watching over with clear evidence that they're watching me as a retarded girl just shunshin'd in to save Naruto and Tsunade already shunshin'd in the middle of this battle.
> 
> Defensive Nature? He pulled Naruto with ST immediately at start battle. He was defensive mainly because he was a cripple and he knew Naruto/Bee were high ranked Jinchurikis. That is invalid in this simulation, Nagato is healthy and he has no knowledge.



Obviously Tendo was more then sufficient in dealing with KN6... and was going to do the same against KN8 had Naruto not gained control. Once again he can always make a new set of _Pein Rikudo_. Nagato was going make Naruto a psuedo _Pein Rikudo_ and make him walk himself to a hideout..... i.e why he impale him with that chakra rod

Hour left of life? Kushin survived getting Kurama rippled out of her, yet you think a more powerful Uzumaki in the form of Nagato couldn't survive severe chakra exhaustion? And you do realize Nagato could still summon idk... his bird to escape?

He used _Bansho Ten'in_ #1, and his body automatically moved.... I.e not in control?



DaVizWiz said:


> Dude you're speaking as if you clearly know such? Everything leads us to believe Nagato would clearly blitz in against some random fodder if he's healthy because that's what almost EVERY S-ranked highly egotistical ninja would do.
> 
> Um.. no? Obito likely couldn't control them and fight at the same time. More importantly, he did blitz at Naruto and Bee after the paths defeated them. He also blitzed at them when Kakashi and Gai were present instead of falling back.



Um Nagato was sitting some multiple km's in a paper tree hiding..... who other than Naruto could find? Everything says he would do that with his paths, not his own person..

He blitzed them when RM Naruto & Killer B where overwhelmed.... I.e when there was an ample opportunity. Not my first action in the match is let me rush in and stab you in the face.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> What? Naruto headbutted him, began irritating him and so Obito responded with the paths attacking in BASE first. Obito got annoyed, forced them into V1, then later V2 when Kakashi and Gai arrived, and finally full form when Naruto transformed.
> 
> Virtually defenseless? She shunshin'd into the middle of the crater instantly and how would Nagato know she was exhausted?
> 
> Nagato blitzes a random fodder the same way Obito would. Nagato doesn't use ST the same way Obito wouldn't obliterate a random with a massive katon just to be "safe".



Obito got irratated with Kakshi & Gai resistance and transformed all the paths in full Biju mode, Naruto transforming was in response to the former not the reverse 

Tsunade was missing her seal, and was on the outskirts of the village.... she did not shunshin. And she failed to react to Shurado's _Rocket Shunshin_ from like 30+ meters

You mean how Tendo one shotted Hinata with _Shinra Tensei_? If he's irritated his is MORE than capable of nuking fodders 



DaVizWiz said:


> Um.. what the fuck? Blitzing equates the use of CQC. When you charge at someone it generally means you're attempting to close the distance, when closing a distance you get closer and closer to close quarter combat, something you probably should be good at if you're running to it.
> 
> You might be retarded if you think someone is blitzing without being trained in CQC.
> 
> Why wouldn't he drop the rod and shunshin out? What the fuck kind of question is "Why wouldn't a weakened tendo alone shunshin at Kakashi with full knowledge of his power scale?" Do you really want an answer to that?



Blitzing equates to actively trying to engage in CqC, not defending yourself from it

Ei charging Kisame is a blitz attempt. Kisame defending against Gai is not a blitz but an exchange of CqC. Blitzing precedes CqC

Because Tendo was tasked with looking for Naruto not creating a distraction. He flat out asked Kakashi where he was and stated he had to be killed as he knew what Nagato's plan was



DaVizWiz said:


> Tendo survived only because his rod interrupted Kakashi's chakra flow and temporarily blinded him. Sending Shurado doesn't mean tendo wasn't in danger for that lapse of time. This battle is a classic example of how reckless Nagato's mindset can be.
> 
> He uses paths because they can utilize shared vision and they're all able to shunshin and move whilst not being crippled.
> 
> Risk is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to the decision making of Nagato canonically, such is obvious when profiling a psychopathic killer with nothing to live for. The careless nature is clear as day, and I firmly believe it would translate from his paths to a healthy Nagato's body in the blink of an eye.



Tendo was already faster than Kakashi as he managed to land a blow in the first place? The blow translater to Kakashi missing _Rakiri_ and the being nuked by _Shinra Tensei_.... that was more of Kakashi (the aggressor) being careless then Nagato (the defender)

He utilizes paths because he can't move and it's a lot safer than him fighting with his own body, not for shared vision. Shared vision is just a bonus that comes with having a Rin'negan

He was a prolific killer only AFTER he got his Pein Rikudo, Nagato current mindset was only around when he had the _Pein Rikudo_, the Nagato before becoming Pain was DRASTICALLY different 



DaVizWiz said:


> You type as if this is some character we have no background or detailed knowledge on.
> 
> 1. He's a psychopath
> 2. He's careless in his use of his paths and prefers CQC
> ...



So Nagato with all the abilities in the world is going to attempt to blitz Minato out of all things because Tendo who can only use 3 abilities and was asking questions, and not immediately trying kill... ok 



DaVizWiz said:


> A gave up against Minato? A gave up against Madara? I'm pretty sure he reassured himself that he could defeat Minato even while he was porting. In the mist of combat his priorities shift to apologizing to B for "messing up" in CQC. I'm pretty sure he reassured the Mizukage when she gave up, and corrected Tsunade's fighting style in the mist of fighting 25 Madara clones. He never gave up until he was captured and put under Genjutsu by Madara. And even then he was only questioning reality and how he was defeated by Genjutsu, not Madara.



And that attitude immediately changed after Minato could have causally loped Killer B's head off. Im pretty sure both where praying to what ever god they prey to that Minato even let them live

And you don't think he gave up the second PS came out? Onoki who was the moral backbone of the Gokage flat out gave up. Nagato in that position would have sarcastically laughed rather and be obliterated than give up and fold



DaVizWiz said:


> I can go ahead and make a thread about this topic if you want?
> 
> Nagato: "Random dude in front of me, Imma summon this massive beast for no reason, but let me make sure it's behind me so if this dude somehow gets behind me I'll be able to see him."
> 
> You surely do. Assuming someone defeats Minato because they discover the meaning or use behind it is a bad estimation.



Your more than welcome to make the thread.... me on the other hand find it not worth it. 

Any way..... this topic is getting repetitive and I'm bored now, so yeah great debating


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## ImSerious (Feb 7, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> ....sigh, so please explain how KN6 reacted to something invisible with no chakra in it again?
> 
> seeing gravity isn't something you can, you know see



ST's activation was indicated by Pain's hand. Thats how KN6 knew ST was being used, and thats why he thrusted his tails into the ground before the shockwave connected with him. Thus he physically reacted to ST.


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## Jizznificent (Feb 7, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> And this is assuming a kunai even reaches Nagato in the first place seeing IC he uses ST or Summons to deflect/block projectiles


i would also just like to add that nagato can use:

- shurado path's long razor sharp tail to deflect kunais.

- suiton mizurappa to push away kunais scattered on the ground.

- fuuton reppushu to blow away kunais.

unlike deva pain, nagato can even make use of these jutsus and potentially more during shinra tensei's cooldown intervals. so nagato has many alternative options - other than shinra tensei - to take care of kunais. just saying lol.


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## Tobirama Uchiha (May 10, 2016)

Nagato easy defeated Killer B and Naruto, I doubt it that Minato also can do that...Flying Thunder God could be really pain in the ass for Nagato, but I think that he will win this...
Close win for Nagato


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## cctr1 (May 10, 2016)

i've never laughed this hard since watching that family guy episode where brayan banged quagmire's father


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## Tobirama Uchiha (May 10, 2016)

cctr1 said:


> i've never laughed this hard since watching that family guy episode where brain banged quagmire's father


I had already become the most hated member of the forum


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## cctr1 (May 10, 2016)

Tobirama Uchiha said:


> I had already become the most hated member of the forum


not me , i like ya mate

Reactions: Like 1


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## sanninme rikudo (May 11, 2016)

Minato gets his area code changed along with all his Kunai.

If shit gets to drastic, CT finishes it.


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## UchihaX28 (May 11, 2016)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Minato gets his area code changed along with all his Kunai.
> 
> If shit gets to drastic, CT finishes it.



Doesn't even need it. Pain alone was portrayed to be above Minato and has abilities that absolutely trashes Minato.


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## ARGUS (May 11, 2016)

The consensus on this battle has never changed 

Nagato mid diffs him


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## ImSerious (May 11, 2016)

Nagato doesn't have what it takes to handle Minato's speed. He's mostly raw power and Minato has shown time and again that speed and S/T > raw power.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 11, 2016)

One powerful ST is all that's needed to destroy minato and all of his kunai. That alone spells doom for minato and that's only one facet of nagato's versatile rinnegan abilities.

Nagato takes this with a medium-high difficulty since he is IC.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ARGUS (May 11, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Nagato doesn't have what it takes to handle Minato's speed. He's mostly raw power and Minato has shown time and again that speed and S/T > raw power.


Blackguyinpinksuit has already answered most of this.

ST isn't just raw power. There is also the fact that it cannot be perceived and happens with no signs whatsoever 

FTG doesn't negate the affects of gravity either. Nor can minato percieve it, nor can he survive something that one shotted the 3 boss toads


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## UchihaX28 (May 11, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Nagato doesn't have what it takes to handle Minato's speed. He's mostly raw power and Minato has shown time and again that speed and S/T > raw power.



 Nagato certainly had what it takes to handle KCM Naruto's speed and KCM Naruto is faster than Minato.

 Minato's literally nothing for characters in the War Arc, hence why he needed KCM to be able to compete.


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## ImSerious (May 12, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> There is also the fact that it cannot be perceived and happens with no signs whatsoever


If you go ahead and read the previous pages of this thread, you'll see how that's not true.



UchihaX28 said:


> Minato's literally nothing for characters in the War Arc, hence why he needed KCM to be able to compete.


this is just getting sad.


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## IzayaOrihara (May 12, 2016)

Not enough information to go by where it concerns Nagato. Is he crippled or not? What does healthy mean? Does he have more chakra? how much does he have?


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## UchihaX28 (May 12, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> If you go ahead and read the previous pages of this thread, you'll see how that's not true.



I'm not going to read outdated rubbish where most of the comments are compete gibberish.



> this is just getting sad.



So you admit that that's the truth.


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