# Current Zoro Vs Current Sanji



## batman22wins (Feb 27, 2015)

What diff does Zoro win. I heard before it was high to extreme, but no way since Zoro Coa Haki seems vastly superior. Even Ida noted that's Zoro power. None of Sanji mid range attack can even hurt Zoro. What can Sanji do to Zoro exactly to make this a high diff fight.


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## NO (Feb 27, 2015)

This is gonna be a ridiculous/entertaining thread so I'll break the ice. I'm gonna be completely unbiased here as I am a Sanji fan and have respect for the Sanji fan community.

Zoro low-diff, *based on everything we know*.  Sanji's stats and feats are so below average it's a little sad. I'm not gonna speculate Sanji's strength or assume his training was as rigorous as Zoro's because there is no good reason to believe so. 

I'm also not gonna speculate that Sanji is on Zoro's level simply because that's how it was pre-TS. Sanji has no feats post-TS, only grandfathered hype from pre-TS. There are simply no facts here that would support the opinion that this would be a difficult win for Zoro.

His attacks are not impressive. His durability is garbage. His speed is alright and might present an obstacle for Zoro. Sanji's specialty is in CoO so I guess he won't be getting hit very easily either. But the real issue?

The problem is that because Sanji's durability is bad Zoro will only need to get a few clean hits on him with hardened swords and he'll lose. This is where this fight falls.


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## Raid3r2010 (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro high/very high diff.

^^ Sanji need more feats indeed.


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## Raiden34 (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro high-extreme diff. If Oda wants, Sanji can win with extreme diff as well.


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## batman22wins (Feb 27, 2015)

Raid3r2010 said:


> Zoro high/very high diff.
> 
> ^^ Sanji need more feats indeed.



I have no problem with that opinion but people are not saying why. Even before the current chapter I always ask Danni fans to give me examples throughout the story or feats that Sanji can make it to high diff against Zoro. Sanji has never been that close to Zoro.


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## NO (Feb 27, 2015)

batman22wins said:


> I have no problem with that opinion but people are not saying why. Even before the current chapter I always ask Danni fans to give me examples throughout the story or feats that Sanji can make it to high diff against Zoro. Sanji has never been that close to Zoro.


They are not saying why because
1. they believe their fan fiction.
2. they're trolling.

It's that simple. Don't let it beat you up, champ.  Zoro is not getting pushed past mid-diff worst case scenario and that's an extremely generous push to begin with.


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## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Feb 27, 2015)

Can someone explain how Sanji can push Zoro to high dif?


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## batman22wins (Feb 27, 2015)

jayjay?? said:


> This is gonna be a ridiculous/entertaining thread so I'll break the ice. I'm gonna be completely unbiased here as I am a Sanji fan and have respect for the Sanji fan community.
> 
> Zoro low-diff, *based on everything we know*.  Sanji's stats and feats are so below average it's a little sad. I'm not gonna speculate Sanji's strength or assume his training was as rigorous as Zoro's because there is no good reason to believe so.
> 
> ...


Yea that's the only advantage Sanji has is Coo. He got his leg fractured by Vergo, couldn't open a door, and Doffy blocked his assault with his leg and feathers hakified. I don't get what Sanji can do exactly to hurt someone like Zoro.


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## Raid3r2010 (Feb 27, 2015)

batman22wins said:


> I have no problem with that opinion but people are not saying why. Even before the current chapter I always ask Danni fans to give me examples throughout the story or feats that Sanji can make it to high diff against Zoro. Sanji has never been that close to Zoro.



I can't really come with reasons since there aren't many feats for current Sanji.M3 post-skip didn't had many impressive battles so far like they had during the time-skip were they seemed way closer to eachother.

The best strength portrayal they had was right after the time-skip when M3 were fucking new PX models in an amazing way,Oda making of us think how much improved all of them.Zoro training with the greatest swordsman around while sanji having a hell of a training for 2 years.I think Sanji trained the most.He went in hell and came back.Respect Sanji.

Also,how he set Wadatsumi on fire during the F.I. was pretty awesome though that can't even compare to current Zoro's feats.Anyway I really don't see Zoro putting down Sanji with only mid difficulty.It would be ridiculous.I don't even think that would be a possibility.High difficulty at the very least for now even though im going very high in most scenarios.Sanji will come up with something soon.The gap between them was never that high and it will never be. 

With extreme between Luffy and Zoro though.


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## Raiden34 (Feb 27, 2015)

R o r o n o a Z o r o said:


> Can someone explain how Sanji can push Zoro to high dif?



Let me know when Zoro fly, 

Sanji also has better speed and Kenbunshoku Haki.


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## batman22wins (Feb 27, 2015)

jayjay?? said:


> They are not saying why because
> 1. they believe their fan fiction.
> 2. they're trolling.
> 
> It's that simple. Don't let it beat you up, champ.  Zoro is not getting pushed past mid-diff worst case scenario and that's an extremely generous push to begin with.



It always ends up like this. I tell them that Danni was that close pre time skip either. I said Zoro actually fought Kuma and dodged his lasers and Palm cannon, while Sanji broke his damn leg crawling around. Zoro used Shi Shi son son (Zoro 2nd strongest attack at the time) and pushed back Kuma(Something Sanji couldn't do he couldn't move him a inch.) Zoro did that while tired and injured. He then knocks out Sanji wit a light blow. I just don't understand where people get this Sanji is on Zoro level from.


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## Raid3r2010 (Feb 27, 2015)

Marco1907 said:


> Let me know when Zoro fly.



Does that count that much ?  



Marco1907 said:


> Sanji also has better speed



Really ? I doubt.


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## batman22wins (Feb 27, 2015)

Marco1907 said:


> Let me know when Zoro fly,
> 
> Sanji also has better speed and Kenbunshoku Haki.



90% of OP can't fly including Luffy.


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## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Feb 27, 2015)

Marco1907 said:


> Zoro high-extreme diff. If Oda wants, Sanji can win with extreme diff as well.





Marco1907 said:


> Let me know when Zoro fly,
> 
> Sanji also has better speed and Kenbunshoku Haki.


_
What can he accomplish against Zoro with that ability?  Send flying kicks while standing in middle air? Funny thing is Zoro can send attacks at him even when Sanji is far away from him where as Sanji needs to get close to Zoro to even hope to hurt him. 

Sanji never displayed any better observation haki feats than Zoro and his speed can't help him against Zoro's striking speed. Look at what happened to Vergo against Law. Zoro has far better striking speed feats than Law. Even with his speed Sanji can't dodge repetitive flying slashes from Zoro._



Raid3r2010 said:


> Really ? I doubt.


_
Sanji is indeed faster than Zoro. In fact Zoro is nowhere near Sanji when it comes to movement speed but Zoro's reactions and striking speed are more than enough to deal with Sanji's speed. Since we are all members of Naruto related forum I really hope that most of you guys are familiar with movement speed VS striking speed arguments. It's the same in this case as well. 

It doesn't matter if you are slower then your opponent, if you have good enough to reactions and striking speed you can easily deal with speed stars. Law VS Vergo for example. Law has 0 notable movement speed feats where as Vergo proved to be able to keep up with Sanji but he was easily defeated by Law's striking speed. Same thing will happen to Sanji against Zoro.

_


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## Typhon (Feb 27, 2015)

I find this thread hilarious being created after recent chapter. I guess common sense just isn't there after chapter release.


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## Quipchaque (Feb 27, 2015)

I think Hell Memories can actually hurt Zoro. It seems too powerful to be ineffective. Other than that Zoro will seriously be troubled by Sanji?s Color of Observation and speed so Sanji might get some hits in and I can?t see Zoro casually stomping Sanji without actually trying.

So all in all I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and say lower end of high diff especially since it would feel awkward if the 3. strongest who?s always been portrayed as strong in his own right would get mid-diffed.


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## Raiden34 (Feb 27, 2015)

Even Doflamingo gave credit to Sanji's kicks, and Sanji is also capable of throwing Vergo and made him bleed with one kick only.

[youtube]fqC_NYuONpo[/youtube]

[youtube]xjj7OV79uoY[/youtube]


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## Amol (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro wins with high diff.


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## King plasma (Feb 27, 2015)

When combatants are on a similar level, It comes down to who has the biggest advantage. Sanji is at a serious disadvantage when fighting Zoro. All Zoro has to do is get in close and Sanji can't do much except retreat and try to look for an opening. Sanji can only block from 1 direction (1 foot) and Zoro has 3 swords and ranged attacks. Zoro being physically stronger and an armaments specialist and Sanji being a cqc fighter, I think smart money is on Zoro. Personally, I think it depends on their surroundings. If they fight on a plain field, Zoro would win. But if they go at it on a mountain that has little foot hold and lots of gaps or something, Sanji would have a better chance. Sanji has shown to be the wittier fighter of the two and I think a more complicated surrounding would give Sanji an advantage. Overall Sanji needs more feats, Zoro winning with high diff most of the time would be my guess.


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## Dr. White (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro San high diff.


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## Coruscation (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro wins with high diff. Sanji has better speed than him, and the attack power to do large amounts of damage with HM and solid damage with DJ. Sanji's COO builds on his speed advantage and should enable him to land hits on Zoro even better than pre-skip. On the flip side Zoro's COA would give him a bigger power advantage over Sanji than pre-skip, but it will never be a good idea for Sanji to challenge Zoro in a contest of power, given what swords do to flesh, so it'll be a basic principle to avoid that anyway and his Observation will let him do so nicely. Ultimately the reason he can't push Zoro to extreme difficulty is that despite the speed advantage Zoro is very quick, perceptive and reactive himself which will prevent Sanji from overwhelming him in that area. His extreme level of endurance, now on top of increased durability with COA, means it takes a hell of a lot to push him to something worthy of being considered extreme diff. There will always be people between Zoro and Sanji and those are the ones that can push Zoro that far whilst still losing to him in the end.


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## Kaiser (Feb 27, 2015)

By feats, Zoro wins mid difficulty, maybe even less. I find COA better in combat than COO, both offensively and defensively especially now that apparently you can't bypass the defense of someone possessing better COA than you, hmm. Not to mention, while Sanji has better dashing speed, Zoro always had better striking speed than him, and the range of the swords not making things any easier, with a destructive capacity off-the chart, capable to end Sanji at any moment. But we know that hypewise Sanji should be able to give him a high difficulty fight


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## tupadre97 (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro wins extreme high diff 6/10 times.


Coruscation said:


> Zoro wins with high diff. Sanji has better speed than him, and the attack power to do large amounts of damage with HM and solid damage with DJ. Sanji's COO builds on his speed advantage and should enable him to land hits on Zoro even better than pre-skip. On the flip side Zoro's COA would give him a bigger power advantage over Sanji than pre-skip, but it will never be a good idea for Sanji to challenge Zoro in a contest of power, given what swords do to flesh, so it'll be a basic principle to avoid that anyway and his Observation will let him do so nicely. Ultimately the reason he can't push Zoro to extreme difficulty is that despite the speed advantage Zoro is very quick, perceptive and reactive himself which will prevent Sanji from overwhelming him in that area. His extreme level of endurance, now on top of increased durability with COA, means it takes a hell of a lot to push him to something worthy of being considered extreme diff. There will always be people between Zoro and Sanji and those are the ones that can push Zoro that far whilst still losing to him in the end.



I disagree Sanji's CoO and maneuverability and agility advantage with moon is definitely enough to push Zoro to his limits. And wth is this "given what swords do to flesh" nonsense? This is one piece. Remember in Whiskey peak when Luffy and Zoro fought luffy straight up punched one Zoro's swords and took no damage, and he is weak to slashing attacks. Sanji kicking zoro's swords and blocking with his legs won't be much of a problem until Zoro's starts using his stronger moves which Sanji will be more likely to be able to avoid with his CoO and moon walk. Sanji can definitely pull off an upset victory 4-5/10.


Kaiser said:


> By feats, Zoro wins mid difficulty, maybe even less.



No.


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## Furinji Saiga (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro high diffs Sanji


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## Magentabeard (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro wins on the higher end of mid diffculty or borderline high difficulty


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## Sir Curlyhat (Feb 27, 2015)

_If Zoro high diffs Sanji, Luffy mid diffs him. If Luffy mid diffs Sanji there's no more M3. Oda showcased multiple M3 moments post time skip, so we know the notion of M3 did not and will not change. If Luffy beats Sanji with high difficulty, Zoro wins with at least very high difficulty, if not extreme._


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## Coruscation (Feb 27, 2015)

^So basically you just think Zoro would have a harder time beating Sanji than Luffy would have beating Zoro. Don't wrap that up in something attempting to sound like a fact though like your first sentence. If Luffy beats Zoro with extreme difficulty then both of them can beat Sanji with high and everything fits. You're just choosing to spin it the other way around: Luffy beats Zoro with high and then Zoro beats Sanji with extreme. It's the same gap from Luffy to Sanji.



			
				tupadre said:
			
		

> And wth is this "given what swords do to flesh" nonsense? This is one piece. Remember in Whiskey peak when Luffy and Zoro fought luffy straight up punched one Zoro's swords and took no damage, and he is weak to slashing attacks.



Luffy never punched, or directly attacked, the sharp side of Zoro's swords. He maneuvered his body to hit the blunt side. The sharp sides of Zoro's swords cut flesh. You can't just "block" them. That's why people use swords instead of unsharpened sticks in the first place: they cut flesh.


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## Kaiser (Feb 27, 2015)

Even in the monster trio, there can have different types of monsters. The term monster trio was just to point out the vast different in their fighting ability compared to the rest of the crew


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## Venom (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro solid High Diff
I don't know what Oda is planning but his Zoro fanboyism in Post TS is like legit Extravlad-Tier


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## Sir Curlyhat (Feb 27, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> ^So basically you just think Zoro would have a harder time beating Sanji than Luffy would have beating Zoro. Don't wrap that up in something attempting to sound like a fact though like your first sentence. If Luffy beats Zoro with extreme difficulty then both of them can beat Sanji with high and everything fits. You're just choosing to spin it the other way around: Luffy beats Zoro with high and then Zoro beats Sanji with extreme. It's the same gap from Luffy to Sanji.
> 
> 
> 
> Luffy never punched, or directly attacked, the sharp side of Zoro's swords. He maneuvered his body to hit the blunt side. The sharp side of Zoro's swords cut flesh. You can't just "block" them. That's why people use swords instead of unsharpened sticks in the first place: they cut flesh.



_Not necessarily, it's also possible for Luffy to beat Zoro from somewhere between very high to lowest end of extreme, while only needing high difficulty for Sanji. If that's the case Zoro would at least need very high difficulty to beat Sanji. But yes, i dismiss the possibility of Zoro being that close to Luffy that the two are all but perfect equals. It's fine if others think that's the case though, Zoro definitely has feats on his side with a Sanji that didn't get his own fight and a Luffy that has yet to fight his._


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## batman22wins (Feb 27, 2015)

I have been saying this for years not recent chapters. The whole manga is proof enough not 1 chapter.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> I think Hell Memories can actually hurt Zoro. It seems too powerful to be ineffective. Other than that Zoro will seriously be troubled by Sanji?s Color of Observation and speed so Sanji might get some hits in and I can?t see Zoro casually stomping Sanji without actually trying.
> 
> So all in all I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and say lower end of high diff especially since it would feel awkward if the 3. strongest who?s always been portrayed as strong in his own right would get mid-diffed.


How would it bother Zoro. This is misinformation about Zoro being slow. He was dodging Palm cannons and Lasers pre time skip without being healthy. Vergo isn't shown to be a speed demon. Every body that fought him got their hits in on him. Sanji isn't that imppressive. What exactly is Hell memories going to do to Zoro?


Marco1907 said:


> Even Doflamingo gave credit to Sanji's kicks, and Sanji is also capable of throwing Vergo and made him bleed with one kick only.
> 
> [youtube]fqC_NYuONpo[/youtube]
> 
> [youtube]xjj7OV79uoY[/youtube]


He easily blocked it with his feather Haki and then wrecked him.


Amol said:


> Zoro wins with high diff.
> Nice seeing how much a moron  zolotard can become and we have plenty of them .


proof


Coruscation said:


> Zoro wins with high diff. Sanji has better speed than him, and the attack power to do large amounts of damage with HM and solid damage with DJ. Sanji's COO builds on his speed advantage and should enable him to land hits on Zoro even better than pre-skip. On the flip side Zoro's COA would give him a bigger power advantage over Sanji than pre-skip, but it will never be a good idea for Sanji to challenge Zoro in a contest of power, given what swords do to flesh, so it'll be a basic principle to avoid that anyway and his Observation will let him do so nicely. Ultimately the reason he can't push Zoro to extreme difficulty is that despite the speed advantage Zoro is very quick, perceptive and reactive himself which will prevent Sanji from overwhelming him in that area. His extreme level of endurance, now on top of increased durability with COA, means it takes a hell of a lot to push him to something worthy of being considered extreme diff. There will always be people between Zoro and Sanji and those are the ones that can push Zoro that far whilst still losing to him in the end.


Sanji is slightly faster, but not by much to give him an advantage over Zoro. All of Sanji midrange attacks are not that strong. When he gets close its all over.


tupadre97 said:


> Zoro wins extreme high diff 6/10 times.
> 
> 
> I disagree Sanji's CoO and maneuverability and agility advantage with moon is definitely enough to push Zoro to his limits. And wth is this "given what swords do to flesh" nonsense? This is one piece. Remember in Whiskey peak when Luffy and Zoro fought luffy straight up punched one Zoro's swords and took no damage, and he is weak to slashing attacks. Sanji kicking zoro's swords and blocking with his legs won't be much of a problem until Zoro's starts using his stronger moves which Sanji will be more likely to be able to avoid with his CoO and moon walk. Sanji can definitely pull off an upset victory 4-5/10.
> ...



When did Luffy punch Zoro Sword. He used his foot to block it. Preskip Sanji legs got wrecked by Kuma. Zoro sword did not break instead they pushed him back with his 2nd strongest technique while heavily tired. How would Sanji small advantage in speed pushed Zoro to the limit bro Zoro was dodging Lasers and Paw cannons while tired. Why would Sanji give him problems with speed


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## batman22wins (Feb 27, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _If Zoro high diffs Sanji, Luffy mid diffs him. If Luffy mid diffs Sanji there's no more M3. Oda showcased multiple M3 moments post time skip, so we know the notion of M3 did not and will not change. If Luffy beats Sanji with high difficulty, Zoro wins with at least very high difficulty, if not extreme._



Just because Sanji isn't has strong has them doesn't mean he not in the M3.


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## Goomoonryong (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro wins high diff, and honestly with the way Oda's been portraying them I think I'm being generous to Sanji. We've got Zoro one shotting everything he comes across, Cutting up mountain sized golems like its nothing, etc. While poor Sanji's been nothing but a hype tool for stronger characters since the SH's left fishman island.


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## Pirao (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro low or mid-high diff. Zoro beats Sanji easier than Luffy beats him.


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## tupadre97 (Feb 27, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> ^So basically you just think Zoro would have a harder time beating Sanji than Luffy would have beating Zoro. Don't wrap that up in something attempting to sound like a fact though like your first sentence. If Luffy beats Zoro with extreme difficulty then both of them can beat Sanji with high and everything fits. You're just choosing to spin it the other way around: Luffy beats Zoro with high and then Zoro beats Sanji with extreme. It's the same gap from Luffy to Sanji.
> 
> 
> 
> *Luffy never punched, or directly attacked, the sharp side of Zoro's swords. He maneuvered his body to hit the blunt side. The sharp sides of Zoro's swords cut flesh. You can't just "block" them. That's why people use swords instead of unsharpened sticks in the first place: they cut flesh*.


Ok i was remembering the anime and not the manga but still Sanji would definitely be able to parry or avoid Zoro's attacks. I don't think he'd win most of the time but he still has a chance. There's no way he loses to Zoro 10/10, that's just ridiculous to downplay sanji like that.


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## batman22wins (Feb 27, 2015)

tupadre97 said:


> Ok i was remembering the anime and not the manga but still Sanji would definitely be able to parry or avoid Zoro's attacks. I don't think he'd win most of the time but he still has a chance. There's no way he loses to Zoro 10/10, that's just ridiculous to downplay sanji like that.



It's not downplaying if the manga supports it. Sanji has never shown to be on Zoro level. If you feel that way about Sanji explain TB. Explain why Sanji broke his leg on Kuma head while Zoro was the only one left fighting Kuma. Zoro dodged Kuma Laser and pushed him back from holding Luffy(Sanji could nt pushed him back just fell on the floor crying cause of leg). Zoro gets up first and knocks Sanji out with the backend of his sword. Takes wayyyyyy more damage then Sanji and was still standing.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 27, 2015)

Based on feats Zoro can solo the rest of his crew (at the same time). But should we all believe he can actually do that?

Zoro Beating Sanji with Low diff is madness. MId diff at Worst. High diff is the best guess.


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## maupp (Feb 27, 2015)

Where do people get this ridiculous idea that Sanji's speed is going to trouble Zoro . People are acting as if Sanji is some kind of minato compared to Zoro's sakura in the speed department. 

Sanji has never been shown to blitz or trouble any of his major opponents in the manga due to speed and that won't be starting with Zoro. 

Sanji is probably faster if we want to speak strictly but not fast to the point of his speed troubling Zoro, some people are seriously unintelligent on these boards . 

All characters aren't exactly as fast as each other, some are a bit faster then other even those in the same tier. Luffy is probably faster than all his peers(SN) but his speed won't be much of a factor against them b/c they aren't slouch in speed and reaction. 

Not even Luffy can blitz Zoro nor trouble Zoro because of his speed, so where does this idea of Sanji's speed troubling Zoro even come from . 

Sanji is faster alright but he doesn't have the speed to trouble Zoro you bunch of tards .


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## Ruse (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro with mid to high diff


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## batman22wins (Feb 27, 2015)

maupp said:


> Where do people get this ridiculous idea that Sanji's speed is going to trouble Zoro . People are acting as if Sanji is some kind of minato compared to Zoro's sakura in the speed department.
> 
> Sanji has never been shown to blitz or trouble any of his major opponents in the manga due to speed and that won't be starting with Zoro.
> 
> ...



Exactly, like I have been saying. The only way to have Sanji on Zoro level is to make up fan fiction like Zoro is slow and gets speed blitz or that Sanji speed blitz his opponents.


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## NO (Feb 27, 2015)

I have no idea where people are getting these outrageous Sanji speed statements. He's fast, probably a little faster than Zoro, but I haven't seen a significant difference or comparative correlation between their speed.


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## maupp (Feb 27, 2015)

Heck we've seen a huge guy like DcJ managing to keep up with Luffy movement wise and not get troubled by his speed but was rather overwhelmed by Luffy's strength. And here we're talking about a guy with no speed feats whatsoever against G2 Luffy one of the speedsters in the manga yet no blitzing nonsenses happened in their encounter nor was he troubled by Luffy's speed. 

This isn't Naruto with Minato blitzing left and right, Oda doesn't do blitz or speed being a deciding factor, the strongest is the one who prevails. Sanji's is faster then Zoro strictly speaking but not even that much faster and such small disparity in speed between them won't allow him to trouble Zoro. G2 Luffy's speed failed to trouble DcJ and many non speedsters in this manga, people whom he actually had huge spped advantage over yet you deluded lots believe that Sanji's small advantage in speed would trouble Zoro . 

Since when in OP such fanfictions happens. Heck Sanji's speed has never troubled any of his main opponents throughout the manga and beat them simply because he happens to be stronger than them. But he'll magically start troubling Zoro of all people with his speed . 

Not even Luffy even in G2 an actually proven speedster has been afforded such privilege since the CP9 fight when G2 was just fresh from the store. If G2 Luffy's speed isn't troubling even average fighters these days in conbat, Sanji someone not even a proper speedster like Luffy sure as hell isn't troubling a solid high tier due to his speed let alone Zoro. 

First he has to start troubling all those fodders and average fighters he's failed to blitz or run all over before we can start talking about him being a mare because of his speed against the like of Franky let alone Zoro


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## Mike S (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro wins high difficulty


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## Jeep Brah (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro solid mid difficulty.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Feb 27, 2015)

Zoro mid diff 

Maybe after Kaidou arc Sanji will catch up and require Zoro to use mid high diff


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## Magentabeard (Feb 27, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Based on feats Zoro can solo the rest of his crew (at the same time). But should we all believe he can actually do that?






*Spoiler*: __ 



Bloodlusted Zoro would solo.


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## Lawliet (Feb 27, 2015)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> Zoro wins high difficulty because of common sense



Common sense? Why? 

And please don't go on about they are apart of the same M3 and all that stuff. From what we've seen from both of them so far, Sanji would be insanely lucky to push Zoro high difficulty. Sanji struggled against Vergo in a straight 1 vs 1 fight where Zoro humiliated Pica in a hide and seek fight and stomped him in a straight 1 vs 1 fight. Zoro is obviously above Sanji by a very , very noticeable margin. And holding to the idea that any of the M3 would need high-extreme to beat each other forever is really just getting funny. You think Zoro would've struggled even a bit against Vergo? Hell no. 

Don't get me wrong. This is not a lelSanji bashing post. I like Sanji and I like what he does for the crew. But he is not pushing Zoro to high difficulty unless under some weird circumstances.


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## Bernkastel (Feb 28, 2015)

Zoro would certainly need high diff to beat Sanji.Lol at some people saying low diff.So Sanji is weak trio now?


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## Raid3r2010 (Feb 28, 2015)

R o r o n o a Z o r o said:


> _Sanji is indeed faster than Zoro. In fact Zoro is nowhere near Sanji when it comes to movement speed but Zoro's reactions and striking speed are more than enough to deal with Sanji's speed. Since we are all members of Naruto related forum I really hope that most of you guys are familiar with movement speed VS striking speed arguments. It's the same in this case as well. _


_

I knew that already.

Movement speed doesn't really matter much when it comes to combat speed where there are several things implied (reaction in time and striking/evasive speed while in combat) idd.



R o r o n o a Z o r o said:



			It doesn't matter if you are slower then your opponent, if you have good enough to reactions and striking speed you can easily deal with speed stars. Law VS Vergo for example. Law has 0 notable movement speed feats where as Vergo proved to be able to keep up with Sanji but he was easily defeated by Law's striking speed. Same thing will happen to Sanji against Zoro.
		
Click to expand...

_
Yes.Yes.I know.


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## Quipchaque (Feb 28, 2015)

I will not accept Sanji being mid-diffed by Zoro until somebody kills me and snatches hope away off my motionless hands.

low-high diff.low-high diff.low-high diff.low-high diff.low-high diff based on stubborness.


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## Akiji (Feb 28, 2015)

Zoro mid dif


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## Magentabeard (Feb 28, 2015)

At this point mid diff is more reasonable than extreme or very high.


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## Raid3r2010 (Mar 1, 2015)

High difficulty sound the most reasonable but we need to see more of Sanji.Im fully convinced he ain't trained for nothing past 2 years.


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## Hachibi (Mar 1, 2015)

The fact that people think that Zoro can low-diff Sanji is enough to not that this thread seriously


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 1, 2015)

To be honest, by current feats I can't even see Luffy beating Zoro.


----------



## Jeep Brah (Mar 1, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> The fact that people think that Zoro can low-diff Sanji is enough to not that this thread seriously



What difficulty was this?


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 1, 2015)

^Caught off guard diff.


----------



## Ajin (Mar 1, 2015)

Awesome feat by Zoro. Knocking down a half dead guy, who took more damage than anyone in TB.


----------



## Pirao (Mar 1, 2015)

Ajin said:


> Awesome feat by Zoro. Knocking down a half dead guy,* who took more damage than anyone in TB. *



No, that was Zoro.

I wonder, how do the people that think Vergo is quite a bit stronger than Sanji, think Sanji has any chance at all against Zoro? Doesn't make much sense to me. It's either, or, those two opinions are incompatible.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 1, 2015)

Ajin said:


> Awesome feat by Zoro. Knocking down a half dead guy, who took more damage than anyone in TB.



Not really fair comparison. It's true that Sanji took more damage against Absalom in comparison to Zoro against Ryuuma, but both of them got battered by Oars. And Zoro managed to keep standing even after taking all the extra damage from luffy.


----------



## Canute87 (Mar 1, 2015)

IijiNijiSanji said:


> Not really fair comparison. It's true that Sanji took more damage against Absalom in comparison to Zoro against Ryuuma, but both of them got battered by Oars. *And Zoro managed to keep standing even after taking all the extra damage from luffy*.



Whitebeard was still standing after he died though.


----------



## Pirao (Mar 1, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Whitebeard was still standing after he died though.



Zoro is getting compared to WB, he truly has come a long way


----------



## Canute87 (Mar 1, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Zoro is getting compared to WB, he truly has come a long way



Whitebeard was already dead.  There was no Whitebeard there any more.


----------



## Ghost (Mar 1, 2015)

With Sanji's current showings he is not giving a high or extreme diff fight to Zoro.

Still, I don't think Zoro is far above Sanij at all. It's just that Zoro is a critical step above Sanji and it makes the gap in their strength look bigger than it is. For example Sanji should be able to give almost as good as fight to other characters as Zoro, but in a fight between them Zoro is just a bit better in almost everything so Sanji can't do much.



Canute87 said:


> Whitebeard was still standing after he died though.



He had his Bisento holding him up, didn't he?


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 1, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Whitebeard was still standing after he died though.



Alive and conscious.


----------



## Canute87 (Mar 1, 2015)

IijiNijiSanji said:


> Alive and conscious.



And your point is?


----------



## Ajin (Mar 1, 2015)

Pirao said:
			
		

> No, that was Zoro.



Not before that scene which Jeep Brah posted. 



			
				IijiNijiSanji said:
			
		

> Not really fair comparison. It's true that Sanji took more damage against Absalom in comparison to Zoro against Ryuuma, but both of them got battered by Oars .





This alone is far worse than anything Zoro took until Kuma arrived, and Sanji started a fight against Oars already seriously wounded, with a hole in his chest. I don't know why so many people ignore Sanji's durability feats in TB. He made better than Alabasta Zoro, or Enies Lobby Luffy. 



			
				IijiNijiSanji said:
			
		

> And Zoro managed to keep standing even after taking all the extra damage from luffy.



But he was so weak after that even unarmed Usopp could kill him. But does it mean that Usopp was stronger than him?


----------



## Hachibi (Mar 1, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:


> What difficulty was this?



Bait2weak4me


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 1, 2015)

Ajin said:


> Not before that scene which Jeep Brah posted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Damn I forgot about that. Holy shit he took a gigante gattling gun. But chopper took the same attack too. How much fatigue/pain did luffy suffer anyway? His main bulk came from absorbing the shadows and using Gear stacking. Shadow asgard wouldn't have done much damage considering he's a rubber man



> But he was so weak after that even unarmed Usopp could kill him. But does it mean that Usopp was stronger than him?





Canute87 said:


> And your point is?



I cited that mainly to indicate Zoro's resolve.


----------



## Jeep Brah (Mar 1, 2015)

Even the anime team realizes Sanji gets wrecked


----------



## Typhon (Mar 1, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Common sense? Why?
> 
> And please don't go on about they are apart of the same M3 and all that stuff. From what we've seen from both of them so far, Sanji would be insanely lucky to push Zoro high difficulty. Sanji struggled against Vergo in a straight 1 vs 1 fight where Zoro humiliated Pica in a hide and seek fight and stomped him in a straight 1 vs 1 fight. Zoro is obviously above Sanji by a very , very noticeable margin. And holding to the idea that any of the M3 would need high-extreme to beat each other forever is really just getting funny. You think Zoro would've struggled even a bit against Vergo? Hell no.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. This is not a lelSanji bashing post. I like Sanji and I like what he does for the crew. But he is not pushing Zoro to high difficulty unless under some weird circumstances.


Before I take this seriously, do you believe Zoro can beat Luffy?

And where is this downplay of Sanji's speed coming from? Sanji's speed feats craps on anything Zoro has done since the timeskip. Sanji is much faster than Zoro until shown otherwise. Zoro just has the reactions to keep up. His striking speed isn't faster either. I don't know where this is coming from.


----------



## Jeep Brah (Mar 1, 2015)

Typhon said:


> Before I take this seriously, do you believe Zoro can beat Luffy?
> 
> And where is this downplay of Sanji's speed coming from?*  speed feats craps on anything Zoro has done since the timeskip*. *Sanji is much faster than Zoro until shown otherwise. *Zoro just has the reactions to keep up. His striking speed isn't faster either. I don't know where this is coming from.



Have you ever read the manga One Piece before? It's a great read.

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Jeep Brah (Mar 1, 2015)

And Zoro has better attack speed than Sanji, period.


Usopp commented on how he could not even see Zoro attack said octopus yet he had no problem on commenting that Sanji moved faster than a fishman.


----------



## Typhon (Mar 1, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:


> Have you ever read the manga One Piece before? It's a great read.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



There's this word called consistency. Or could I just post a pic of Sanji outrunning Zoro in Nami's body?


----------



## Jeep Brah (Mar 1, 2015)

Typhon said:


> *There's this word called consistency.* Or could I just post a pic of Sanji outrunning Zoro in Nami's body?





If you can't even comprehend the difference between ' gag' scenes and "real" scenes there's no point in debating.


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (Mar 1, 2015)

I know Sanji fans like to mention that he can fly and Zoro can't

Unfortunately if Sanji tries to run away by flying, Zoro will just 1 shot him in mid air with 1080p cannon

Sanji loses no matter what he does, low diff


----------



## Typhon (Mar 1, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:


> If you can't even comprehend the difference between ' gag' scenes and "real" scenes there's no point in debating.





> *There's this word called consistency*. Or could I just post a pic of Sanji outrunning Zoro in Nami's body?



I don't think I'm the one having comprehension issues.


----------



## Jeep Brah (Mar 1, 2015)

Typhon said:


> I don't think I'm the one having comprehension issues.



Should have told me you were a troll, would have saved a few mb of data.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 1, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:


> If you can't even comprehend the difference between ' gag' scenes and "real" scenes there's no point in debating.



The gag scene saved Zoro's life and was a key moment. One could consider Usopp scaring Sugar into unconsciousness a gag scene as well, however it caused a pivotal change in the Dressrosa.arc. Both of these scenes count. 



Jeep Brah said:


> Usopp commented on how he could not even see Zoro attack said octopus yet he had no problem on commenting that Sanji moved faster than a fishman.



That was anime filler. This is the manga scene:


No one said anything about Zoro's speed


----------



## Freechoice (Mar 1, 2015)

Zoro high diff realistically

Though Oda would probably make it low diff


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 1, 2015)

Typhon said:


> Before I take this seriously, do you believe Zoro can beat Luffy?
> 
> And where is this downplay of Sanji's speed coming from? Sanji's speed feats craps on anything Zoro has done since the timeskip. Sanji is much faster than Zoro until shown otherwise. Zoro just has the reactions to keep up. His striking speed isn't faster either. I don't know where this is coming from.



No, but I believe Zoro and Luffy would end in a very very similar manner to Luffy vs Lucci.

Sanji is faster, so what. Reaction speed to an attack and running from one place to another are not the same. Sanji might be able to run from point A to point B faster than Zoro, but his reaction speed to attacks is not better than Zoro's, which is the important thing in a fight. Sanji doesn't have the power to put someone like Zoro down at the moment. His leg was cracked by Vergo, you think Zoro's swords were going to be cracked by Vergo if they clashed? What happens to Sanji if he clashes with Zoro then? Trust me, Sanji is one of my favorite characters. But people need to stop making him something that he is not. Which is being really close to Zoro cause he is not. I get it, he's a part of the M3 and all that stuff which is why a lot of people feel the need to defend everything Sanji related, but you don't have to. He's good the way he is. He doesn't have to be exactly as strong as Luffy and Zoro.


----------



## Sanji (Mar 1, 2015)

Zoro extreme diff.


----------



## Typhon (Mar 1, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> No, but I believe Zoro and Luffy would end in a very very similar manner to Luffy vs Lucci.
> 
> *He doesn't have to be exactly as strong as Luffy and Zoro*.



So what I'm seeing is pretty much this. Luffy's portrayal so far is no better than Sanji's. You could argue Luffy's portrayal is actually worse, but you still believe Luffy is stronger than Zoro. Why? Because of common sense and pre-skip portrayals.

What I don't understand about all of you is this double standard of placing Luffy above Zoro, but bashing Sanji and claiming such things as he's no longer on their level when Luffy has done no better.

You even make the comparison of how Zoro and Sanji did against executives and how Zoro would have no trouble with Vergo yet Luffy got owned by freaking Monet, who was then owned by Zoro.


----------



## zoro_santoryu (Mar 1, 2015)

Zoro mid to high difficulty


----------



## Canute87 (Mar 2, 2015)

Typhon said:


> So what I'm seeing is pretty much this. Luffy's portrayal so far is no better than Sanji's. You could argue Luffy's portrayal is actually worse, but you still believe Luffy is stronger than Zoro. Why? Because of common sense and pre-skip portrayals.
> 
> What I don't understand about all of you is this double standard of placing Luffy above Zoro, but bashing Sanji and claiming such things as he's no longer on their level when Luffy has done no better.
> 
> You even make the comparison of how Zoro and Sanji did against executives and how Zoro would have no trouble with Vergo* yet Luffy got owned by freaking Monet,* who was then owned by Zoro.



I didn't know Monet's ice powers were capable of creating a garbage chute.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 2, 2015)

Zoro wins with mid to high diff.



Typhon said:


> So what I'm seeing is pretty much this. Luffy's portrayal so far is no better than Sanji's. You could argue Luffy's portrayal is actually worse, but you still believe Luffy is stronger than Zoro. Why? Because of common sense and pre-skip portrayals.
> 
> What I don't understand about all of you is this double standard of placing Luffy above Zoro, but bashing Sanji and claiming such things as he's no longer on their level when Luffy has done no better.
> 
> You even make the comparison of how Zoro and Sanji did against executives and how Zoro would have no trouble with Vergo yet Luffy got owned by freaking Monet, who was then owned by Zoro.



The thing is that people keep giving Luffy the benefit of the doubt. They are stuck in their Shounen logic traps of thinking that the main character has to be stronger than his right hand at all times. Even if Zoro has better portrayal, hype and feats than Luffy, everyone has to keep stating that Luffy is stronger than Zoro and that it's retarded to believe anything else, in order to avoid being branded as Zoro wankers. The culture on this forum allows for no form of decent debates on certain topics, which is why the notion that Luffy is stronger than Zoro is presented as a fact and not as an opinion by almost every posters. No matter how long this poor portrayal of Luffy continues, he'll still infallibly be regarded as the strongest SH. Luffy basically has an unbreakable plot armour here on the forum, which Sanji lacks.


----------



## Captain Altintop (Mar 2, 2015)

Luffy very high diffs Zoro

Zoro very high to extreme diffs Sanji

Luffy high diffs Sanji.

Simple as that.


----------



## Pirao (Mar 2, 2015)

Captain Altintop said:


> Luffy very high diffs Zoro
> 
> Zoro very high to extreme diffs Sanji
> 
> ...





A guy that has trouble with Vergo isn't pushing Zoro to extreme difficulty


----------



## Typhon (Mar 2, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> I didn't know Monet's ice powers were capable of creating a garbage chute.



Really Canute? That isn't the point of the post


----------



## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Mar 2, 2015)

_I don't even get why exactly people even think that Sanji could push Zoro to high dif.


_


Raid3r2010 said:


> I knew that already.
> 
> Movement speed doesn't really matter much when it comes to combat speed where there are several things implied (reaction in time and striking/evasive speed while in combat) idd.
> 
> ...


_
I am happy to know that you are aware of the difference in their speed. _


----------



## Turrin (Mar 2, 2015)

Dunno said:


> The thing is that people keep giving Luffy the benefit of the doubt. They are stuck in their Shounen logic traps of thinking that the main character has to be stronger than his right hand at all times. Even if Zoro has better portrayal, hype and feats than Luffy, everyone has to keep stating that Luffy is stronger than Zoro and that it's retarded to believe anything else, in order to avoid being branded as Zoro wankers. The culture on this forum allows for no form of decent debates on certain topics, which is why the notion that Luffy is stronger than Zoro is presented as a fact and not as an opinion by almost every posters. No matter how long this poor portrayal of Luffy continues, he'll still infallibly be regarded as the strongest SH. Luffy basically has an unbreakable plot armour here on the forum, which Sanji lacks.


It's not even Shounen troupes, though that certainly supports Luffy >= Zoro as well, it's more how the One-Piece manga has been written so far. For 500 chapters leading up to Part II Luffy has always been >= to Zoro. For that to change there would need to be some sort of meaningful reason for that shift woven into the plot, but Oda hasn't demonstrated anything like that in the actual story. So the argument would have to be Oda decided to change things up after 500 chapters and relegate the MC to taking a back seat to Zoro, _just cause_. The same pretty much applies to Luffy & Zoro pulling far ahead of Sanji. If people seriously believe Zoro > Luffy or Zoro/Luffy >>>> Sanji, they need to present a compelling reason for why Oda would shift the story in such a way, and provide evidence for that shift and i'm not talking Feats, i'm talking plot points in the story that are enriched by the power standings being changed up from how they were in Part I. 

As far as feats go, looking exclusively at DR of course Zoro is going to have better feats presently as he just finished his battle against his main arc enemy, while Sanji is totally off panel and Luffy still hasn't had his final confrontation with DD. However the paradigm doesn't seem to have changed in DR, as Zoro is still taking on the mini-boss, while Luffy is taking on the big boss; and Sanji is still shown fighting M3 enemies like clashing with DD and deal with a threat like the Big Mom Pirates. Looking back at PH, yeah Luffy didn't look so great against Monet, but Zoro didn't look so great against the Yeti-Cool brothers himself, and at the end of the day the Paradigm remained the same Luffy defeat the Big-Bad, and Zoro dealt with one of the mini bosses (Monet), and Sanji fought an M3 enemy (Vergo). 

People key in on the fact that Sanji cracked his Leg against Vergo, while Zoro wouldn't have cracked his sword, but Sanji and Zoro's fighting styles are totally different; Sanji is a CoO users while Zoro is a CoA user, so of course Zoro is going to be able to more effectively block a CoA move, than Sanji, but Sanji will be able to maneuver around his enemy beating on them better than Zoro, which is exactly what he was doing to Vergo until they clashed their kicks. Did Sanji make a mistake there and underestimate Vergo's CoA, yeah he did, but it's not like Zoro doesn't make similar mistakes as well (again see Yeti Cool Brothers or even Perona from Part I). And it's not like Sanji couldn't take Vergo, he just acknowledge that things would get dicey from the point where he cracked his leg onwards. Considering Vergo is close to Pica in strength, who gave DR-Zoro high diff, it's really not surprising that Vergo would prove a troublesome enemy for PH-Sanji.

In FI the straw-hats were all overpowered against their enemies, so I don't really see much that can be derived strength-wise there, but the paradigm still remains the same with Luffy defeating the Big Boss Hordi, and Zoro/Sanji defeating top lackeys. Same thing with Shabondy where Luffy takes a Pacifista himself, while Zoro and Sanji equally own on the same one.

So it's not like Zoro's feats are really that much better than Luffy's or Sanji's. Zoro may have less herp da derp moments than Luffy, but since the start of the manga it's been that way as Zoro is more straight forward, cut the shit, type of character than Luffy. And recently Zoro may have more time to shine than Sanji, but that's because he's gotten way more panel time than Sanji, which unless Oda is building up to some epic Sanji focused arc next (which hopefully will be the case w/ Big Mom pirates) is really a problem with the story telling rather than strength.


----------



## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Mar 2, 2015)

Typhon said:


> So what I'm seeing is pretty much this. Luffy's portrayal so far is no better than Sanji's. You could argue Luffy's portrayal is actually worse, but you still believe Luffy is stronger than Zoro. Why? Because of common sense and pre-skip portrayals.
> 
> What I don't understand about all of you is this double standard of placing Luffy above Zoro, but bashing Sanji and claiming such things as he's no longer on their level when Luffy has done no better.
> 
> You even make the comparison of how Zoro and Sanji did against executives and how Zoro would have no trouble with Vergo yet Luffy got owned by freaking Monet, who was then owned by Zoro.


_
Zoro openly admitted inferiority against Luffy while fighting Pica. For me it's more than enough to say that he's stronger than Zoro. Zoro has been constantly hyping Luffy whenever he gets a chance.. Besides , Luffy is the captain of the ship and is the main character so he should be stronger as you said in your post. Where as Sanji doesn't have such an armour that helps him to stay on Zoro's level.

Sanji has no reason to get stronger like Zoro and Luffy. His only reason to get stronger is to provide support to his crew and he has no reason to be on Luffy and Zoro's level to do that. Sanji has always been considerably weaker than Zoro but the gap b/w him and Zoro was bigger than the gap b/w Luffy and Zoro where those gaps altered after TS. 

Now the gap b/w Luffy and Zoro is too small where as the gap b/w Zoro and Sanji is too big._


----------



## Jeep Brah (Mar 2, 2015)

R o r o n o a Z o r o said:


> _
> 
> Now the gap b/w Luffy and Zoro is too small where as the gap b/w Zoro and Sanji is too big._



And /Thread.......


----------



## Raiden34 (Mar 2, 2015)

R o r o n o a Z o r o said:


> _
> 
> 
> Now the gap b/w Luffy and Zoro is too small where as the gap b/w Zoro and Sanji is too big._



Comes from ; ''R o r o n o a Z o r o''


----------



## Jeep Brah (Mar 2, 2015)

Marco1907 said:


> Comes from ; ''R o r o n o a Z o r o''



Don't you think Marco = Akainu?


----------



## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Mar 2, 2015)

Marco1907 said:


> Comes from ; ''R o r o n o a Z o r o''


_
It doesn't matter from where it is coming. The fact that Sanji lacks feats as well as hype to put him on Zoro and Luffy's level after TS remains the same.It is not like I have problems with Sanji being on Zoro's level. There are loads of people that are stronger than him and I have no problem with that.Sanji is no exception from them.  When Sanji gets enough feats to say that he's on par with Zoro then I'll be the first one to say that Sanji is on Zoro's level. _


----------



## HaxHax (Mar 2, 2015)

R o r o n o a Z o r o said:


> _
> It doesn't matter from where it is coming. The fact that Sanji lacks feats as well as hype to put him on Zoro and Luffy's level after TS remains the same.It is not like I have problems with Sanji being on Zoro's level. There are loads of people that are stronger than him and I have no problem with that.Sanji is no exception from them.  When Sanji gets enough feats to say that he's on par with Zoro then I'll be the first one to say that Sanji is on Zoro's level. _



And Zoro didn't have feats to put him on Sanji's level after Fishman Island. 


But I'm sure you were right there saying Sanji > Zoro. Because that's the kind of consistency I expect from you, R o r o n o a Z o r o.


----------



## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Mar 2, 2015)

HaxHax said:


> And Zoro didn't have feats to put him on Sanji's level after Fishman Island.
> 
> 
> But I'm sure you were right there saying Sanji > Zoro. Because that's the kind of consistency I expect from you, R o r o n o a Z o r o.


_
It seems like you stopped reading manga after FI. _


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 2, 2015)

HaxHax said:


> *And Zoro didn't have feats to put him on Sanji's level after Fishman Island. *
> 
> 
> But I'm sure you were right there saying Sanji > Zoro. Because that's the kind of consistency I expect from you, R o r o n o a Z o r o.



. 

He fodderized the Arc Villain and later Hyouzou(Someone luffy said was strong) and who took a massive amount of ES pills like Hodi did and transformed. 

What did Sanji do? 

Take out a giant gummy bear alongside Jinbei who if i recall did not actually even fight Sanji. He sent like one attack towards Jinbei, then the rest of the time just filled himself with air.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 2, 2015)

R o r o n o a Z o r o said:


> _
> Zoro openly admitted inferiority against Luffy while fighting Pica. For me it's more than enough to say that he's stronger than Zoro. _


_

When was that? Sorry I can't remember....
Thanks

Edit: Wait was it this part?:

_


----------



## HaxHax (Mar 2, 2015)

R o r o n o a Z o r o said:


> _
> It seems like you stopped reading manga after FI. _



It seems like you stopped reading my post after the first few letters. 

You know what I didn't expect you to get the point anyway. Don't know why I even bothered.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 2, 2015)

> Zoro openly admitted inferiority against Luffy while fighting Pica. For me it's more than enough to say that he's stronger than Zoro.



What is this fanfic?


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 2, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> What is this fanfic?



I think he meant this part:



But we could say he hyped up God Usopp as well here by speaking of him as "God" and mentioning his name alongside luffy while mentioning his own name in passing:


----------



## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Mar 2, 2015)

HaxHax said:


> It seems like you stopped reading my post after the first few letters.



_
Well I did stopped after a few letters as your post is composed of so much nonsense. _



> You know what I didn't expect you to get the point anyway. Don't know why I even bothered.


_
It seems like you already know the fact that I am incapable of reading and understanding BS. _



IijiNijiSanji said:


> I think he meant this part:
> 
> 
> 
> But we could say he hyped up God Usopp as well here by speaking of him as "God" and mentioning his name alongside luffy while mentioning his own name in passing:


_
You got my point and the reason why he mentioned Usopp's name is because they considered him to be a 5*. In addition to those points Zoro demonstrated his faith in Luffy as well as hyped him when he said that this bird cage will be gone with Hajrudin._


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 2, 2015)

R o r o n o a Z o r o said:


> _
> Well I did stopped after a few letters as your post is composed of so much nonsense. _
> 
> 
> ...



Strawhats in general put a lot of faith in their crew members. Zoro really has no way of knowing Doffy's strength in relation to luffy's (his observation haki isn't all that good yet). He just puts faith in luffy because of his performance so far. Luffy set out to fight a yonko and Zoro (and the rest) would follow him because they put faith in him.


----------



## Suit (Mar 2, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _If Zoro high diffs Sanji, Luffy mid diffs him. If Luffy mid diffs Sanji there's no more M3. Oda showcased multiple M3 moments post time skip, so we know the notion of M3 did not and will not change. If Luffy beats Sanji with high difficulty, Zoro wins with at least very high difficulty, if not extreme._



I take my last post back. Sir Curlyhat solos again.


----------



## GreenStache (Mar 2, 2015)

Its stupid to say Zoro would Mid-Diff Sanji just as its to say Sanji would bring Zoro to Exteme-Diff.


Sanji isnt pushing Zoro anywhere past "High"


----------



## Jeep Brah (Mar 2, 2015)

*Sanji vs Zoro Feats​*

Sanji​

​
Zoro​

Pushed Back an Admiral several meters
One-Shot a FBH Pica whose around Vergo's tier
Mountain Level Slashes
Did not give a shit when he sensed Vergo
Clashed with Admiral again


----------



## MrWano (Mar 2, 2015)

You have to be OPTiers' dupe. Otherwise good job on the impersination, intended or not.


----------



## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Mar 2, 2015)

_


IijiNijiSanji said:



			Strawhats in general put a lot of faith in their crew members. Zoro really has no way of knowing Doffy's strength in relation to luffy's (his observation haki isn't all that good yet). He just puts faith in luffy because of his performance so far. Luffy set out to fight a yonko and Zoro (and the rest) would follow him because they put faith in him.
		
Click to expand...


Zoro displayed good observation hki fears against Hodi,, He sensed Vergo and Caribou. I don't think Zoro failed to sense Pica because he is not good a good observation haki user. It's because of one of these two reasons. It's most likely because Pica becomes one with the rock and it isn't possible to tell the difference b/w him and the rock or may be Pica is too fast to track down when he's inside Golem.

Besides, he saw what Law did to PH and he witnessed that Law was fodderized by Joker so he can pretty much have an idea about Joker strength from that information._


----------



## ShadowReaper (Mar 2, 2015)

Oda hates Sanji, so it's quite obvious from the Dressrose arc that Zoro is stronger than Sanji.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 2, 2015)

R o r o n o a Z o r o said:


> _
> 
> Zoro displayed good observation hki fears against Hodi,, He sensed Vergo and Caribou. I don't think Zoro failed to sense Pica because he is not good a good observation haki user. It's because of one of these two reasons. It's most likely because Pica becomes one with the rock and it isn't possible to tell the difference b/w him and the rock or may be Pica is too fast to track down when he's inside Golem.
> 
> Besides, he saw what Law did to PH and he witnessed that Law was fodderized by Joker so he can pretty much have an idea about Joker strength from that information._



I didn't say he was devoid of haki. I said he wasn't at the level where he could judge how strong someone is. For example Rayleigh was able to say how many animals on the island were stronger than luffy by sensing. Mihawk told Zoro (back in baratie) that if he were worth his salt, he would be able to tell the difference between him and Mihawk. 

When exactly did zoro display haki against hodi (sorry, refresh my memory?)
He sensed vergo as a weird aura, but sanji was able to tell a woman was in danger in addition to vergo's killing intent which is more proficient than Zoro and locate him.


----------



## ShadoLord (Mar 2, 2015)

Zoro wins with about mid/high-diff with his current showings against Sanji's.


----------



## Mike S (Mar 2, 2015)

Luffy defeats Zoro anywhere from High-end of High Difficulty - Extreme Difficulty  
Luffy defeats Sanji anywhere from Low-end of High Difficulty - Solid High Difficulty 
Zoro defeats Sanji anywhere from Solid High Difficulty - High-end of High Difficulty

Luffy 10
Zoro 9
Sanji 7 - 7.5


----------



## warismydestiny (Mar 2, 2015)

Zoro defeats Sanji with very extreme difficulty nothing less


----------



## Yuki (Mar 2, 2015)

warismydestiny said:


> Zoro defeats Sanji with very extreme difficulty nothing less



Based on what?


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 2, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Based on what?



Hope and nostalgia.


----------



## Magentabeard (Mar 2, 2015)

warismydestiny said:


> Zoro defeats Sanji with very extreme difficulty nothing less


----------



## batman22wins (Mar 3, 2015)

Sanji fans love throwing around what diff Zoro beats him and but everytime I ask them to explain why it's a high or extreme diff fight none of them come with anything rational.


----------



## Suit (Mar 3, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Based on what?



M3 dynamic (although I think it would be lower end of extreme). Anyone suggesting otherwise should stop talking; they'll poison the youth that may be reading this forum. 

Seriously, OPBD and OL will never be good sections until the fucking Zoro-trolls are dealt with. When someone with the username "Zoro" tells you to stop wanking Zoro, you seriously need to get a fucking life.


----------



## Yuki (Mar 3, 2015)

StrawHat said:


> M3 dynamic (although I think it would be lower end of extreme). Anyone suggesting otherwise should stop talking; they'll poison the youth that may be reading this forum.
> 
> Seriously, OPBD and OL will never be good sections until the fucking Zoro-trolls are dealt with. When someone with the username "Zoro" tells you to stop wanking Zoro, you seriously need to get a fucking life.



Lol.

I just belieave in changve in the manga.

Both Luffy and Zoro should be above the person that trained Sanji at this point. While both are still far weaker than their own trainers.


----------



## trance (Mar 3, 2015)

Zoro certainly has the move set to end Sanji quickly. However, most of them can be avoided via superior speed + aerial maneuverability + Observation Haki, evening it out. 

In a direct clash, Zoro would prove stronger but it's not like Sanji is vastly below him in stats. He'd force Zoro to continuously ramp up the intensity of his attacks and exert more energy. He'll no doubt score hits on Zoro and while Zoro's monstrous endurance will help him wonders in this regard, he'll still accumulate damage and battle fatigue. I don't see Sanji pushing Zoro to his absolute utmost limits but the it should be a difficult and arduous battle for the swordsman.

Overall, high difficulty.


----------



## Chrollo Lucilfer (Mar 3, 2015)

Zoro got better durability, CoA, power and lethal attacks
Sanji has superior speed, CoO and mind.

Probably ends up in a high diff for Zoro


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 3, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Lol.
> 
> I just belieave in changve in the manga.
> 
> Both Luffy and Zoro should be above the person that trained Sanji at this point. While both are still far weaker than their own trainers.



Yeah... we don't exactly know where Iva chan stands. Secondly Iva didn't train sanji. Sanji was basically fighting and running from people stronger than him who wanted to molest his prince ass for 2 years constantly. The only thing they taught him were recipies for the newkama cooking style. Whatever he learnt he learnt on his own by roughing it, no teacher or anything.


----------



## Yuki (Mar 3, 2015)

IijiNijiSanji said:


> Yeah... we don't exactly know where Iva chan stands. Secondly Iva didn't train sanji. Sanji was basically fighting and running from people stronger than him who wanted to molest his prince ass for 2 years constantly. The only thing they taught him were recipies for the newkama cooking style. Whatever he learnt he learnt on his own by roughing it, no teacher or anything.



That's true.

But Luffy probably also mostly trained with the monsters on that island and Zoro probably trained with the apes on his island. 

So i bring up teachers.  Or at least the strongest one on their respective islands.


----------



## trance (Mar 3, 2015)

Who trains you shouldn't be _entirely_ indicative of how powerful you are or must be in relation to others. It's a matter of actual strength potential and just how much you unlock.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 3, 2015)

StrawHat said:


> M3 dynamic (although I think it would be lower end of extreme). Anyone suggesting otherwise should stop talking; they'll poison the youth that may be reading this forum.
> 
> Seriously, OPBD and OL will never be good sections until the fucking Zoro-trolls are dealt with. When someone with the username "Zoro" tells you to stop wanking Zoro, you seriously need to get a fucking life.



Sanji giving Zoro Extreme diff  

Not since EL my friend.


----------



## Suit (Mar 3, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Lol.
> 
> I just belieave in changve in the manga.
> 
> Both Luffy and Zoro should be above the person that trained Sanji at this point. While both are still far weaker than their own trainers.



It's a matter of story structure. Sanji will never not be a part of the M3. Anyone believing otherwise needs to stop thinking and go do manual labor or something; their lack of intelligence isn't really suited for anything else.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 3, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> That's true.
> 
> But Luffy probably also mostly trained with the monsters on that island and Zoro probably trained with the apes on his island.
> 
> So i bring up teachers.  Or at least the strongest one on their respective islands.



We know rayleigh taught luffy the basics of Haki and left in 6 months. Zoro might've got the most intensive and focused training of all 3 of them, since his trainer was a swordman, whom he asked for guidance, and knew haki. 

Also, what Trance said about teachers=/=strength


----------



## Yuki (Mar 3, 2015)

Actually in manga teachers = strength growth IS a thing.

If you don't know that then go watch 500 of the anime's that have it included in them.

DBZ being one of the most notable.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 3, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Actually in manga teachers = strength growth IS a thing.
> 
> If you don't know that then go watch 500 of the anime's that have it included in them.
> 
> DBZ being one of the most notable.



*Tries to think of instances where teacher wasn't involved for significant boost to refute Juvi*

*Fails*



Edit: Actually: Vegeta4lyfe. Dude didn't have any teacher and basically trained himself throughout the series getting massive increases.


----------



## Yuki (Mar 3, 2015)

IijiNijiSanji said:


> *Tries to think of instances where teacher wasn't involved for significant boost to refute Juvi*
> 
> *Fails*
> 
> ...



I meant a good teacher. xD

Not teachers at all. 

In most manga a character with a weak teacher will grow to a certain point and stop. Normally around their teachers level. Then they later get a much better teacher and their growth becomes absurd. 

Same thing in real life. If you train with a shit trainer you will get stronger but not by much. However if you train with a really good one you have a chance to compete against the very best.


----------



## Suit (Mar 3, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Actually in manga teachers = strength growth IS a thing.
> 
> If you don't know that then go watch 500 of the anime's that have it included in them.
> 
> DBZ being one of the most notable.



There's no good reason to think that Sanji hasn't kept up. Thinking that he hasn't means that you've taken too much liberty in interpreting the story in your own wrong way and should humble yourself a bit more.


----------



## Vengeance (Mar 3, 2015)

What am I reading here, low-diff, extreme-diff? :sanji


----------



## TheWiggian (Mar 3, 2015)

IijiNijiSanji said:


> *Tries to think of instances where teacher wasn't involved for significant boost to refute Juvi*
> 
> *Fails*
> 
> ...



Don't forget to mention that Akira hated/still hates Vegeta and can only suck Gokus and Gohans cock. The mass amount of Vegeta fans forced him to create a Z fighter out of the Saiyan Prince. 

Just look at the storyline: Vegeta loses, Vegeta loses, Vegeta loses, Vegeta loses, Vegeta makes a dumb decision (thought hes much smarter than Goku, Vegeta loses, Vegeta goes in and gets knocked out after 30 seconds, Vegeta loses, Vegeta loses. Only Goku and his handicaped son shine in that show.


----------



## Suit (Mar 3, 2015)

TheWiggian said:


> Don't forget to mention that Akira hated/still hates Vegeta and can only suck Gokus and Gohans cock. The mass amount of Vegeta fans forced him to create a Z fighter out of the Saiyan Prince.
> 
> Just look at the storyline: Vegeta loses, Vegeta loses, Vegeta loses, Vegeta loses, Vegeta makes a dumb decision (thought hes much smarter than Goku, Vegeta loses, Vegeta goes in and gets knocked out after 30 seconds, Vegeta loses, Vegeta loses. Only Goku and his handicaped son shine in that show.



Wow, even _you_ are capable of a quality post now and then. But yeah, totally agree.


----------



## trance (Mar 3, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Actually in manga teachers = strength growth IS a thing.
> 
> If you don't know that then go watch 500 of the anime's that have it included in them.
> 
> DBZ being one of the most notable.



Strength can be accumulated just as fast and effective with simple instinctive learning and self-training as it can be through another teaching you. 

Luke Skywalker received very minimal training through others yet it's because of his natural aptitude and potential that allowed him to hone his own skills to the point of equaling or surpassing his peers, who received much more formal and traditional master-and-apprentice training. While not as much as Luffy or Zoro, there's no doubt that Sanji has - or at least should have - tremendous potential and taking into account his motivation to be as strong as he can be, it's entirely unfair to rank Sanji well below Luffy/Zoro simply because he didn't have a mentor.


----------



## Amol (Mar 3, 2015)

Law also had no teacher and look how strong he is.
Law unlike Kid didn't even challenge anyone stronger (he waited patiently for his plan. He is not as reckless as Luffy or Kid ).
He just became stronger because he had potential .
Unless someone is saying that Sanji has no potential then who was his teacher is irrelevant.


----------



## Kishido (Mar 3, 2015)

Amol said:


> Law also had no teacher and look how strong he is.
> Law unlike Kid didn't even challenge anyone stronger (he waited patiently for his plan. He is not as reckless as Luffy or Kid ).
> He just became stronger because he had potential .
> Unless someone is saying that Sanji has no potential then who was his teacher is irrelevant.



You could twist it even more and say

Pre Skip Kid Sanji had Zeff, a pirate, as teacher... While Zoro got someone we don't know how strong he is and Luffy just kid Ace and Sabo.

This whole teacher and dream stuff is just shit?

Daddy WB just wanted to have a freaking gay family and was the fucking strongest man alive.

And I doubt that every admiral or even some Yonkous had the dream to be the strongest "insert something in here.


----------



## Canute87 (Mar 3, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Actually in manga teachers = strength growth IS a thing.
> 
> If you don't know that then go watch 500 of the anime's that have it included in them.
> 
> *DBZ being one of the most notable*.




King Kai wasn't that strong.


----------



## trance (Mar 3, 2015)

Yep. Dreams and ambitions don't _always_ correlate to possessing the greatest strength. And yea, arguably the best example of this in One Piece is Sakazuki and Kuzan.


----------



## Yuki (Mar 3, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> King Kai wasn't that strong.



I was talking about Goku training Gohan.

1 year training and he becomes 10,000x stronger than he was before.


----------



## Jin22 (Mar 3, 2015)

Seems the consensus is that, Sanji isn't going to win. That said, so this is about, 'how bad would he lose then'. I'd say, it would be very close in a playful scenario just like they have been portrayed since the beginning. Always a brotherly playful bicker. However...beginning with the moment it got serious,  Zoro, I am sorry to say Sanji fans, I like him too,  would decimate Sanji. His power has never really been on Zoro's level. Speed don't mean a thing if the other's reaction time is too great


----------



## Quipchaque (Mar 3, 2015)

Kishido said:


> You could twist it even more and say
> 
> Pre Skip Kid Sanji had Zeff, a pirate, as teacher... While Zoro got someone we don't know how strong he is and Luffy just kid Ace and Sabo.
> 
> ...



Not trying to shot you down here or something so no harsh feelings but the WB example isn?t all that good. You need power to protect your family so it?s only natural that he strived to become stronger.


----------



## Kishido (Mar 3, 2015)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Not trying to shot you down here or something so no harsh feelings but the WB example isn?t all that good. You need power to protect your family so it?s only natural that he strived to become stronger.



Every SH want to become stronger to

A. Archieve the dream

B. To support Luffy


C. To protect their nakama... Sanji has been shown even in rage not being able to do so...  (Bottom right)


So what is the difference between Sanji wanting to protect them and WB? Same goes for the other SHs as Zoro... Or do you think they don't want to be strong enough to protect their members and their captain? Would be somehow dumb... Even more for the 3 alpha tiers to protect the waker ones


----------



## Quipchaque (Mar 3, 2015)

Kishido said:


> Every SH want to become stronger to
> 
> A. Archieve the dream
> 
> ...




Nothing exactly. Just mentioned that Whitebeard?s search for power goes along with the pattern. I agree with you on the other stuff.


----------



## Kishido (Mar 3, 2015)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Nothing exactly. Just mentioned that Whitebeard?s search for power goes along with the pattern. I agree with you on the other stuff.



Well and same could go for everyone else besides characters who want to be the strongest "insert x"

Just talking about the poeple saying... His drice is stronger so he will be da strognest, cuz he want to be.

So at least we can agree, that you don't have to have such dream to actually be the biggest and strongest mofo around

(Not saying that Sanji is stronger or equal to Zoro... Cuz he is not)


----------



## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Mar 3, 2015)

IijiNijiSanji said:


> I didn't say he was devoid of haki. I said he wasn't at the level where he could judge how strong someone is. For example Rayleigh was able to say how many animals on the island were stronger than luffy by sensing. Mihawk told Zoro (back in baratie) that if he were worth his salt, he would be able to tell the difference between him and Mihawk.


_
He was able to tell the difference in strengths of Pica and himself._



> When exactly did zoro display haki against hodi (sorry, refresh my memory?)
> He sensed vergo as a weird aura, but sanji was able to tell a woman was in danger in addition to vergo's killing intent which is more proficient than Zoro and locate him.


_
Zoro dodged water bullets.

She started crying when Vergo attacked her The time gap b/w Sanji's arrival and her time when Vergo attacked is too small to even think that he sensed her tears and appeared there.. And there is no way in hell for Sanji to sense those tears and arrive at her location with that short period of time. Sanji must have started when Vergo arrived at their place. Because he knew that she''ll be attacked by him.
_


----------



## Suit (Mar 3, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> I was talking about Goku training Gohan.
> 
> 1 year training and he becomes 10,000x stronger than he was before.



You just supported the "inherent potential" point more than you did the "good teacher" point.

Let me attack both teaching _and_ training arguments with some cold hard facts for a moment myself, though.

Look at pre-time skip for a minute.

Zoro was constantly training, lifting weights, doing everything in his power to train himself between adventures while Luffy and Sanji did jack shit and never once thought about training like Zoro did. And yet, Luffy still stayed a bit ahead, and Sanji only dragging slightly behind Zoro. Despite the fact that, again, Zoro put in a ton of blood, sweat, and tears into training while the other two did _absolutely nothing_ and produced similar "results."

I could use this as a shallow argument to say that Zoro's potential is way worse than Luffy's and Sanji's because he had to work hard to retain his spot in the M3. However, we all know that that is not the case. The fact is that all of Zoro's training was shown because _that's the kind of character he is_. He trains constantly and the others don't because that's not like them. 

But if I made such an argument, I would be doing the _exact thing_ that Sanji/Luffy downplayers are doing in taking Zoro's character portrayal (of soloing everything) and using it to make a serious argument. And I could rightly be called a fucking idiot for it. Because that would be a fucking idiotic thing to do. And _it is a fucking idiotic thing to do._


----------



## Coruscation (Mar 3, 2015)

StrawHat said:
			
		

> Zoro was constantly training, lifting weights, doing everything in his power to train himself between adventures while Luffy and Sanji did jack shit and never once thought about training like Zoro did. *And yet, Luffy still stayed a bit ahead, and Sanji only dragging slightly behind Zoro*.



According to who, you? Because official complementary material says otherwise. It claims that from the very start of the series Luffy/Zoro were closer than Zoro/Sanji, and that Zoro is as strong as Luffy even after 400 chapters in. So hey, maybe that training actually was paying off, like it makes sense for it to?

But of course, don't let the facts bother you. It's always fun to watch.


----------



## Suit (Mar 3, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> According to who, you? Because official complementary material says otherwise. It claims that from the very start of the series Luffy/Zoro were closer than Zoro/Sanji, and that Zoro is as strong as Luffy even after 400 chapters in. So hey, maybe that training actually was paying off, like it makes sense for it to?
> 
> But of course, don't let the facts bother you. It's always fun to watch.



Took you off ignore to find a terrible post. I'll give you one last chance before you go back on.

Enies Lobby. Explain why Zoro and Sanji were effectively portrayed as equal there with Luffy pulling ahead massively.

I fully expect your Zoro-crush to cloud your judgement though, so don't worry too much about disappointing me.


----------



## Coruscation (Mar 3, 2015)

Who are you again? Some old terrible poster who changed their screenname?

My explanation for the events of EL is that it was Luffy's time to shine as he went through a critical moment of personal growth as well as growth in power, so he was especially highlighted and focused on in that arc. Zoro and Sanji both defeated opponents close to each other in strength, but Kaku was more impressive than Jyabura, Zoro did slightly better against him than Sanji did against Jyabura, and most importantly neither fighter was pushed to their limits. You can only tell how strong someone truly is when you see their maximum capabilities. Those were never revealed in EL, but they were for both Zoro and Sanji in TB, which brings to me to how it's time for you to go ahead and explain why Zoro personally KO'd Sanji and then took more than the pain that KO'd Luffy and still stayed conscious in Thriller Bark. Then you can explain why supplemental official material has stated that Zoro is as strong as Luffy and that and Luffy/Zoro are one step above Sanji in power.


----------



## Grimsley (Mar 3, 2015)

Let's be real Zoro is by far stronger, there's no comparison - Sanji wouldn't be able to hurt Pica whereas Zoro oneshot him basically.


----------



## Suit (Mar 3, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> -Censored to protect the eyes of the innocent-



The moment you implied that Zoro is stronger than Luffy, your credibility was shot. Good-bye.


----------



## MrWano (Mar 3, 2015)

jackieshann said:


> Let's be real Zoro is by far stronger, there's no comparison - *Sanji wouldn't be able to hurt Pica* whereas Zoro oneshot him basically.



Why not? Sanji's CoO, speed, aerial maneuverability and cunningness should be more than enough for him to at worst stalemate Pica. 

Zoro might be able to one shot Pica (he did two shot him though), but the difficult part about fighting Pica is dealing with his golem and getting get him out of it. And Zoro did have both trouble in that area and a bit of help from Orlumbus when dealing with it.


----------



## Unclear Justice (Mar 3, 2015)

I think what Corus said has a lot of substance.

In all honesty though:

At this point referring to pre-skip only serves the purpose of showing which concepts existed once and therefore could exist again. We should try to limit this discussion to post skip for the most part since Oda had the opportunity to change the relations in the M3 to his liking without too many problems in terms of continuity thanks to the 2 years training.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 3, 2015)

StrawHat said:


> The moment you implied that Zoro is stronger than Luffy, your credibility was shot. Good-bye.



Were you one of those itachi haters that for the longest time thought he would lose to Jiraiya.?

I got the feeling you were.

Also did you really just say that using feats\portrayal is a shallow arguement and worthy of being called stupid. I think that wins my reward of most retarded thing i have read in the last few months.


----------



## MrWano (Mar 3, 2015)

StrawHat said:


> The moment you implied that Zoro is stronger than Luffy, your credibility was shot. Good-bye.



Why not try to refute him or offer rational counter suggestions instead of this? :/ Can be done in regards to pretty much everything he wrote. 

I agree with UJ on pre-ts vs post -ts.


----------



## Suit (Mar 3, 2015)

MrWano said:


> Why not try to refute him or offer rational counter suggestions instead of this? :/ Can be done in regards to pretty much everything he wrote.
> 
> I agree with UJ on pre-ts vs post -ts.



Luffy is the captain of the SH pirates, and will be King of the Pirates EOS which implies that he'll be WSM. It's simple, really.

And Oda is too dependent on formulas to ever break too far from them.


----------



## Grimsley (Mar 3, 2015)

MrWano said:


> Why not? Sanji's CoO, speed, aerial maneuverability and cunningness should be more than enough for him to at worst stalemate Pica.
> 
> Zoro might be able to one shot Pica (he did two shot him though), but the difficult part about fighting Pica is dealing with his golem and getting get him out of it. And Zoro did have both trouble in that area and a bit of help from Orlumbus when dealing with it.



computer says no

zoro > chopper >>> sanji


----------



## MrWano (Mar 3, 2015)

StrawHat said:


> Luffy is the captain of the SH pirates, and will be King of the Pirates EOS which implies that he'll be WSM. It's simple, really.
> 
> And Oda is too dependent on formulas to ever break too far from them.



True, he'll be the PK, but we both know that even Roger had an equal. It wasn't his first mate, but still.

Captain-FM relationship consistency is an argument I guess. Especially since Luffy has been presented as a special snowflake, golden child and not merely a normal rookie. That being said I wouldn't oppose Zoro as an anomaly. 

Just to be clear, I do think that Luffy was significantly stronger than Zoro in EL, possibly even in Alabasta, and that he probably still is stronger. His personality might simply hinder him and his upper end feats will be superior as usual. We'll see.

Edit: About those formulas. Which formulas do you mean and why is he dependant on them? For example, why would Luffy>Zoro>Sanji or even the M3 formula be so important? And would there be a problem in Zoro's position fluctuating a bit between being close to Luffy and closer to Sanji? Both has a foundation in the past, after all.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 3, 2015)

StrawHat said:


> The moment you implied that Zoro is stronger than Luffy, your credibility was shot. Good-bye.



I know im on your ignore list but hopefully you take me off for a second lol. 

I just re-read Corus post twice where did he implie Zoro>Luffy, or are you talking about a previous post he made


----------



## Unclear Justice (Mar 3, 2015)

StrawHat said:


> And Oda is too dependent on formulas to ever break too far from them.



Interesting statement.

If we take "Zoro and Sanji where nigh equal at some point in the past" and "Zoro and Luffy where nigh equal at some point in the past" as foundation, then no matter where Zoro stands currently - well, as long as it is in between Luffy and Sanji - Oda did not break too far from his formulas which makes said formulas neglectable to determine Zoro's current position.


----------



## MrWano (Mar 3, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I know im on your ignore list but hopefully you take me off for a second lol.
> 
> I just re-read Corus post twice where did he implie Zoro>Luffy, or are you talking about a previous post he made



He prob. means the taking pain situation in TB.


----------



## Suit (Mar 3, 2015)

MrWano said:


> He prob. means the taking pain situation in TB.



Correct.

And there's really nothing wrong with being a rational Zoro fan. Zoro is my second favorite Strawhat by a considerable margin (that is, Sanji trails behind quite a bit). His badass side is exactly what I love in my favorite anime characters. But while Oda portrays him as a god sometimes, he always falls back into the same formula that he's always used. Luffy > Zoro > Sanji with a considerably minimal difference between each one.


----------



## Jeep Brah (Mar 3, 2015)

StrawHat said:


> Wow, even _you_ are capable of a quality post now and then. But yeah, totally agree.



Why do you have to be a cunt?


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 3, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Those were never revealed in EL, but they were for both Zoro and Sanji in TB, which brings to me to how it's time for you to go ahead and explain why Zoro personally KO'd Sanji and then took more than the pain that KO'd Luffy and still stayed conscious in Thriller Bark. .


_
Doesn't that solely deal with a single aspect of one's overall power and not the whole package ? Even if Zoro were to be able to take twice as much damage as Luffy and three times as much as Sanji, can one conclude that Zoro is that much stronger than either of them, or does that that solely showcase his excellence in a single department without taking into consideration a huge amount of data that completes the picture of Zoro and the other two as distinct fighters with various strengths and weaknesses ? Zoro was the man suited for the job at the time, and he saved the crew with his ability to endure a significant amount of damage an pain. Sanji was the man suited for the job the previous arc, and he saved the crew with his wits, his ability to observe the available tools and think a few steps ahead, rendering useless the tragedy that would have fallen upon them if they were to face a Buster Call at the time. This also makes me respect Oda for his consistency, since he properly followed through their pre time skip excellence when choosing the color of Haki each specializes in._


----------



## Jeep Brah (Mar 3, 2015)

StrawHat said:


> Luffy > Zoro > Sanji with a considerably *minimal difference between each one.*



And this here is as bad as the wankers and haters.
It's straight up not true.

Nothing in the manga has *ever once* even remotely indicated Luffy would need anything that resembles extreme let alone high difficulty to beat Sanji.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 3, 2015)

StrawHat said:


> Correct.
> 
> And there's really nothing wrong with being a rational Zoro fan. Zoro is my second favorite Strawhat by a considerable margin (that is, Sanji trails behind quite a bit). His badass side is exactly what I love in my favorite anime characters. But while Oda portrays him as a god sometimes, he always falls back into the same formula that he's always used. Luffy > Zoro > Sanji with a considerably minimal difference between each one.



Only thing TB implies is that Zoro's *endurance>*Luffys. Which is not anything new as Zoro has always been a endurance monster, so Oda implying Zoro>Luffys Endurance was not really strange

I recall Arlong making a joke out of Sanji, and then Luffy beating the dog shit out of Arlong after he got serious. There is a pretty LARGE difference between Sanji and Luffy.


----------



## Jeep Brah (Mar 3, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _
> Doesn't that solely deal with a single aspect of one's overall power and not the whole package ? Even if Zoro were to be able to take twice as much damage as Luffy and three times as much as Sanji, can one conclude that Zoro is that much stronger than either of them, or does that that solely showcase his excellence in a single department without taking into consideration a huge amount of data that completes the picture of Zoro and the other two as distinct fighters with various strengths and weaknesses ? Zoro was the man suited for the job at the time, and he saved the crew with his ability to endure a significant amount of damage an pain. Sanji was the man suited for the job the previous arc, and he saved the crew with his wits, his ability to observe the available tools and think a few steps ahead, rendering useless the tragedy that would have fallen upon them if they were to face a Buster Call at the time. This also makes me respect Oda for his consistency, since he properly followed through their pre time skip excellence when choosing the color of Haki each specializes in._



Sanji's brains sure protected him from Dolflamingo and Vergo.

It's also why Luffy the dumbest character in this manga will also be the strongest.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 3, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:


> Sanji's brains sure protected him from Dolflamingo and Vergo.
> 
> It's also why Luffy the dumbest character in this manga will also be the strongest.



_Sanji used his intelligence to force Kuroobi out of water, escaping an impossible to win scenario, and defeat him. He used his intelligence to trick Mr 2 into turning back into himself in order to be able to attack him, and win his fight. He used his intelligence to get free hits on Jabra through their encounter and catch him mid air in a situation where he would not be able to avoid his finisher. He used his intelligence to be able to locate Absalom while invisible, and thus be able to fight him and defeat him. He used his intelligence to make Wadatsumi inflate himself to an unreasonable extent, and have him fly high into the sky when all the air went out, in order to be able to use his HM without harming the other SH's with the aoe.

Sure, his intelligence did not make him more durable than Vergo or made available unknown information about Doflamingo's abilities or his hax. His intelligence does not make him perfect, just like Zoro's ability to take a beating doesn't make him perfect and he needed help to reach in a point where he can defeat Pica. It's a tool and like any tool it works to a certain extent and depending on circumstances._


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## Coruscation (Mar 3, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Doesn't that solely deal with a single aspect of one's overall power and not the whole package ? Even if Zoro were to be able to take twice as much damage as Luffy and three times as much as Sanji, can one conclude that Zoro is that much stronger than either of them, or does that that solely showcase his excellence in a single department without taking into consideration a huge amount of data that completes the picture of Zoro and the other two as distinct fighters with various strengths and weaknesses ? Zoro was the man suited for the job at the time, and he saved the crew with his ability to endure a significant amount of damage an pain. Sanji was the man suited for the job the previous arc, and he saved the crew with his wits, his ability to observe the available tools and think a few steps ahead, rendering useless the tragedy that would have fallen upon them if they were to face a Buster Call at the time. This also makes me respect Oda for his consistency, since he properly followed through their pre time skip excellence when choosing the color of Haki each specializes in._



You're missing the point completely. Please read a little more carefully before you defensively respond as if there was a whole different debate going on.

The guy who to my great regret has apparently ignorelisted me now was talking about _portrayal_. What does Zoro KO'ing Sanji with one blow and then being the one left standing as he takes on Luffy's pain on top of his own say for portrayal? Please remember the proper context: I was dramatizing the description just as the person I responded to dramatized his. You don't get to, as my dear antagonist was doing, claim that Enies Lobby somehow means Luffy >> Zoro >= Sanji whilst Thriller Bark means nothing as far as strength goes. Saying that is simply showcasing how extremely biased one is.

If your stance here is to be taken as the famous Thriller Bark scene intending to show nothing more than one quality of Zoro's, his damage soak, as some sort of cold hard number, with no further suggestive power, and doesn't amount to more than Sanji closing the GOJ in Enies Lobby, then you're also showcasing an extreme amount of bias. So I'm hoping that's not the case and you simply misinterpreted what I was saying entirely and thought you had to respond with something that would be equally close-minded to make a point.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 3, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> You're missing the point completely. Please read a little more carefully before you defensively respond as if there was a whole different debate going on.
> 
> *The guy who to my great regret has apparently ignorelisted *me now was talking about _portrayal_. What does Zoro KO'ing Sanji with one blow and then being the one left standing as he takes on Luffy's pain on top of his own say for portrayal? Please remember the proper context: I was dramatizing the description just as the person I responded to dramatized his. You don't get to, as my dear antagonist was doing, claim that Enies Lobby somehow means Luffy >> Zoro >= Sanji whilst Thriller Bark means nothing as far as strength goes. Saying that is simply showcasing how extremely biased one is.
> 
> If your stance here is to be taken as the famous Thriller Bark scene intending to show nothing more than one quality of Zoro's, his damage soak, as some sort of cold hard number, with no further suggestive power, and doesn't amount to more than Sanji closing the GOJ in Enies Lobby, then you're also showcasing an extreme amount of bias. So I'm hoping that's not the case and you simply misinterpreted what I was saying entirely and thought you had to respond with something that would be equally close-minded to make a point.



Corus Pretending to give a shit about other posters. 

 I see through your tricks my friend. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Anyway. Any Portrayal of Zoro/Luffy does not matter as its just Oda wanking Zoro. I thought you knew that corus.


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## Jin22 (Mar 3, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway. Any Portrayal of Zoro/Luffy does not matter as its just Oda wanking Zoro. I thought you knew that corus.


There is no way Oda can wank any character in One Piece. Him being the one who created them. 




> The guy who to my great regret has apparently ignorelisted me now was talking about portrayal.


Your argument was sound. I hope your simply amused by his ignore-listing you


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 3, 2015)

R o r o n o a Z o r o said:


> He was able to tell the difference in strengths of Pica and himself.[/I]



No, he was bragging. 

Zoro dodged water bullets.



> She started crying when Vergo attacked her The time gap b/w Sanji's arrival and her time when Vergo attacked is too small to even think that he sensed her tears and appeared there.. And there is no way in hell for Sanji to sense those tears and arrive at her location with that short period of time. Sanji must have started when Vergo arrived at their place. Because he knew that she''ll be attacked by him.



Umm no. Starting of the chapter we see sanji together with zoro and co. Middle we see tashigi getting pounded and sanji coming in to save her. end we see Usopp asking zoro why sanji *just* left off. Sanji reached there very quickly, and he could sense tashigi's distress. He wouldn't unnecessarily leave Nami to go and look for trouble like that. He sensed a woman in distress, and went for it. 



> Zoro dodged water bullets.



Dodging is CoO now? Also when exactly did Zoro dodge anything from hody? They fought in chapter 617 and 618, Hody shot the water bullets at Neptune and his soldiers, zoro intercepted with a flying slash. Then 618 we see zoro one shotting him. Nothing else.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 3, 2015)

Jin22 said:


> *There is no way Oda can wank any character in One Piece. Him being the one who created them. *
> 
> 
> Your argument was sound. I hope your simply amused by his ignore-listing you



Oh my.

You don't know how funny this statement is to me, and i say that with no disrespect directed towards you. Its a long story though but thanks for the laugh.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 3, 2015)

Oda wanked to Nami. Heck he married a Nami cosplayer


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 3, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> and doesn't amount to more than Sanji closing the GOJ in Enies Lobby, then you're also showcasing an extreme amount of bias. So I'm hoping that's not the case and you simply misinterpreted what I was saying entirely and thought you had to respond with something that would be equally close-minded to make a point.


_
It does amount to "more", in the sense that it shows that Zoro is stronger than Sanji. The two are singled out as the last SH's still standing and willing to sacrifice themselves for Luffy, and Zoro is given priority. The fact that Sanji was one of the two and Zoro had to knock him out to stop him doesn't speak against him, on the contrary, it showcases what we probably both agree on, the fact that the M3 dynamic is a constant through out the series. Beside that, i hope you do not belittle the importance of what Sanji did back in EL, because despite not showing overall superiority over Zoro, it showcases his vital and near equal importance for the crew's success, due to his superiority to Zoro and Luffy in certain areas. 

So yes, Zoro's ability to endure more damage and pain makes him suitable to be the one that takes Luffy's damage/pain. The fact that Sanji stepped up to do it as well, puts him up there in terms of portrayal. The fact that Zoro was the one to actually do it gives him the edge in portrayal, confirming something we already knew, that between him and Sanji he will always have the edge.

If you want to use that to say Zoro closed the gap to Luffy, i disagree. This example can properly be used to showcase Zoro's superiority to Sanji through portrayal, but not to say that he's nearly his captain's equal. Even if we don't question that scene and say that Kuma gave him all that pain and damage, it doesn't really amount to more than that. Without Luffy's overall speed/agility, not to mention rubber body, Zoro would have without a doubt lost to Moria, just as he would have lost to almost all previous villains that his captain defeated. He stays comparable to his captain in terms of destructive power/ability to take damage, while he's outmatched in about every other department. What he did makes him the first mate, makes him the second best to his captain, but does not make him his captain's equal or confirms him as close to that as humanly possible._


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## Coruscation (Mar 3, 2015)

I'm glad you agree. Sanji's smarts and out of combat intelligence is a big thing he brings to the table that Zoro doesn't (on top of his role as chef) as well as a character trait. In combat, Zoro brings and always will bring not insignificantly more than Sanji because that's a central thing to his role and character traits. That's exactly what the dynamic is like.

Zoro can indeed take more damage than Sanji. That's not the reason Zoro was made to do it though. Trying to twist it that way even partially is an extremely obvious case of trying to downplay the scene by watering it down and attempting to blur the actual message.

In conjunction with official complementary materials' statement that Zoro is as strong as Luffy (something you appear keen to ignore to 100%) and prior history, both of manga evidence and other official material stating the same? *Yes, yes it can* (and should) be used to argue for Zoro as being very close to Luffy in stature. It's one of a history of countless scenes where Oda does this. He even goes as far as to outright call Zoro the toughest member of the crew and that's not saying a little knowing Luffy's level of staying power. Zoro losing to Moriah has little and less to do with this. Luffy himself only won over Moriah because the latter greatly underestimated and in various ways held back against Luffy and the situational advantage of a rubber body. 

While it's true that Luffy was definitively superior to Zoro at the time, Thriller Bark puts down the foot with a colossal oomph to show us with just how much respect Zoro is still portrayed relative to his captain and that _you should not take Enies Lobby as the one and only source of eternal ultimate gospel_ that many Sanji fans around here love to do whilst minimizing the power of the following arc's climax to their best ability. EL showed Luffy's limits. It never showed Zoro and Sanji's. Theirs were revealed the subsequent arc, and the spectacular way Zoro's were revealed made such an impact that it's one of the most beloved scenes of the manga and was so impressive it's often been used to argue Zoro >= Luffy in certain areas. There is no minimizing that. Zoro always has and always will have special treatment. He is one of 3 cores of the manga itself. To dismiss the consistent portrayal of his incredible, unique closeness to his captain in power and stature is nothing short of a fool's errand.


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## Jin22 (Mar 3, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Oh my.
> 
> You don't know how funny this statement is to me, and i say that with no disrespect directed towards you. Its a long story though but thanks for the laugh.


Hmm well, I CAN see the funny factor, and I don't mind a laugh myself. That said, it bugs me when people bring n the "wank", whenever it came to a debate. Especially if it involves the writer himself, me being a fellow writer. 

Its all good. I see that you're cool


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 3, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> I'm glad you agree. Sanji's smarts and out of combat intelligence is a big thing he brings to the table that Zoro doesn't (on top of his role as chef) as well as a character trait. In combat, Zoro brings and always will bring not insignificantly more than Sanji because that's a central thing to his role and character traits. That's exactly what the dynamic is like.
> 
> Zoro can indeed take more damage than Sanji. That's not the reason Zoro was made to do it though. Trying to twist it that way even partially is an extremely obvious case of trying to downplay the scene by watering it down and attempting to blur the actual message.
> 
> ...



_And that Sanji was there, as the last guy standing next to Zoro. Let's not forget that, Zoro could have been further distinguished from Sanji to the point where he's that much closer to his captain, but Oda chose to have Sanji a step away from doing the same thing. So no, i don't really see the big distinction in Zoro's favor, he's simply that one step ahead of Sanji through portrayal as well, and immediately after that happened Oda once again went out of his way to have two random guys that can see the whole thing tell Sanji about it, and give great praise not only to Zoro but Sanji as well for their actions at the time, and Sanji's way of handling the outcome of what happened. Zoro get's the edge, it makes for a memorable moment that confirms Zoro's role as the first mate, sure it shows that Zoro and Sanji are not to be disregarded as not comparable to Luffy, because i agree with the difference in difficulty between their fights in EL and Luffy's, and that's about the extent of  the implications resulting from Zoro's beautiful act of self sacrifice.

In manga Zoro and Luffy were only shown to be arguably that close during their Whiskey Peak fight. That's followed by Little Garden implying a sense of equality between Sanji and Zoro. The next implication of near equality only came as result of EL, and referred to Sanji and Zoro. I don't discuss other sources. I don't know how credible the sources themselves are or how accurate the translations. 

I'm not adamant on Zoro being 100% closer to Sanji than to Luffy. It is my belief, but i can easily see him right in between as well, or maybe even a bit closer to Luffy.  I've read every single chapter of the manga more than once and based on what i've seen up to this point you can't convince me that Zoro is all but Luffy's equal and a fight between the two would be comparable to Jimbe vs Ace or Akainu vs Aokiji._


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## batman22wins (Mar 3, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _And that Sanji was there, as the last guy standing next to Zoro. Let's not forget that, Zoro could have been further distinguished from Sanji to the point where he's that much closer to his captain, but Oda chose to have Sanji a step away from doing the same thing. So no, i don't really see the big distinction in Zoro's favor, he's simply that one step ahead of Sanji through portrayal as well, and immediately after that happened Oda once again went out of his way to have two random guys that can see the whole thing tell Sanji about it, and give great praise not only to Zoro but Sanji as well for their actions at the time, and Sanji's way of handling the outcome of what happened. Zoro get's the edge, it makes for a memorable moment that confirms Zoro's role as the first mate, sure it shows that Zoro and Sanji are not to be disregarded as not comparable to Luffy, because i agree with the difference in difficulty between their fights in EL and Luffy's, and that's about the extent of  the implications resulting from Zoro's beautiful act of self sacrifice.
> 
> In manga Zoro and Luffy were only shown to be arguably that close during their Whiskey Peak fight. That's followed by Little Garden implying a sense of equality between Sanji and Zoro. The next implication of near equality only came as result of EL, and referred to Sanji and Zoro. I don't discuss other sources. I don't know how credible the sources themselves are or how accurate the translations.
> 
> I'm not adamant on Zoro being 100% closer to Sanji than to Luffy. It is my belief, but i can easily see him right in between as well, or maybe even a bit closer to Luffy.  I've read every single chapter of the manga more than once and based on what i've seen up to this point you can't convince me that Zoro is all but Luffy's equal and a fight between the two would be comparable to Jimbe vs Ace or Akainu vs Aokiji._



You do realize Zoro is Rayleigh and its pretty freaking obvious right. Puffy and Zoro will always be close. Zoro is the second main character and has gotten the 2nd most developement. Sanji and Zoro were never equal including in little garden. The Databook states they have equal combat poweress.  Luffy and Zoro already fought in WP and were shown to be equal.

Noting is ever really in Sanji favor for all these years because Ida will never make Sanji more impressive then Zoro or Luffy. Even Luffy believes Zoro can handle anything. He says that all the time.

Sanji fans like to claim he can give them high-extreme fights to Puffy or Zoro but can't tell me how. The knew claim now is Sanji will somehow run circles around Zoro because he faster. Where are you people getting this from. Who has Sanji blitz that makes u think he can catch Zoro massive reactions feats. What makes you guys think Zoro is slow. The only ammo left for Sanji fans is this made up speed that you have bestowed on your favorite character.


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## Typhon (Mar 3, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> While it's true that Luffy was definitively superior to Zoro at the time, Thriller Bark puts down the foot with a colossal oomph to show us with just how much respect Zoro is still portrayed relative to his captain and that _you should not take Enies Lobby as the one and only source of eternal ultimate gospel_ that many Sanji fans around here love to do whilst minimizing the power of the following arc's climax to their best ability. EL showed Luffy's limits. It never showed Zoro and Sanji's. Theirs were revealed the subsequent arc, and the spectacular way Zoro's were revealed made such an impact that it's one of the most beloved scenes of the manga and was so impressive it's often been used to argue Zoro >= Luffy in certain areas. There is no minimizing that. Zoro always has and always will have special treatment. *He is one of 3 cores of the manga itself.* To dismiss the consistent portrayal of his incredible, unique closeness to his captain in power and stature is nothing short of a fool's errand.



I need you to explain this one to me. 

And "Sanji fans" don't just use EL as a way of proving Zoro and Sanji are close. Those two have been paired together for majority of the manga. For every instance you can find of Zoro being paired with Luffy, I can find an instance of Sanji being paired with Zoro. I could also say that Wiskey Peak is sung like gospel by Zoro fans, who then downplay Enies Lobby's portrayal and even believe that Zoro managed to catch up to Luffy after gaining a new sword.


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## batman22wins (Mar 3, 2015)

Typhon said:


> I need you to explain this one to me.
> 
> And "Sanji fans" don't just use EL as a way of proving Zoro and Sanji are close. Those two have been paired together for majority of the manga. For every instance you can find of Zoro being paired with Luffy, I can find an instance of Sanji being paired with Zoro. I could also say that Wiskey Peak is sung like gospel by Zoro fans, who then downplay Enies Lobby's portrayal and even believe that Zoro managed to catch up to Luffy after gaining a new sword.



Explain? Zoro is the second main character. Nobody else other then luffy has more screen time then Zoro.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 3, 2015)

Zoro is the GOAT


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## Mike S (Mar 3, 2015)

Typhon said:


> I need you to explain this one to me.



He's likely referring to the Color Walk when Oda stated "Luffy, Zoro, and Nami were the trigger/core of One Piece.

During EL, Zoro was closer to Sanji but it's more of a result of Luffy pulling away due to his significant power-up, than Zoro and Sanji actually being close in strength. Basically, Luffy's power-up was so big that the only available outcome became Zoro is closer to Sanji. Now I don't think Thriller Bark was enough for Zoro to close the gap on Luffy, but his gaining of Shusui(and sacrifice) on TB while Luffy and Sanji gained nothing is enough to say he became closer to Luffy again, especially when the only reason he became closer to the object behind him(Sanji) was because the object infront of him(Luffy) moved ahead. The time-skip training also supports Zoro being closer to Luffy again after EL.

Luffy is confident in the strength of every Strawhat but throughout the series it's clear as day that there's only one character's strength who Luffy himself views just as capable as his own, and that's Zoro. Just look at the time during LG when Luffy was told his entire crew(including Sanji) was captured and Luffy replies (This scene was then mirrored by Zoro next chapter.)
Or how about the time Luffy was in disbelief that Enel was able to take-out Zoro. Or how about Luffy's countless reference to the crew as "Zoro and the others"? Zoro's strength obviously stands out to Luffy in comparison to Sanji's.


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## HaxHax (Mar 3, 2015)

batman22wins said:


> You do realize Zoro is Rayleigh and its pretty freaking obvious right



Yeah and Chopper is Crocus right?


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## trance (Mar 3, 2015)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> Now I don't think Thriller Bark was enough for Zoro to close the gap on Luffy, but his gaining of Shusui(and sacrifice) on TB



Discounting his full willingness to sacrifice his life, his acquisition of Shuusui shouldn't be seen as a reliable power up. He could barely control it and launching an attack with it resulted in an outcome he wasn't expecting. I just don't think uncontrolled destructive might gave him _as large_ of a power up as you're thinking.


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## Kaiser (Mar 3, 2015)

Trance said:


> Discounting his full willingness to sacrifice his life, his acquisition of Shuusui shouldn't be seen as a reliable power up. He could barely control it and launching an attack with it resulted in an outcome he wasn't expecting. I just don't think uncontrolled destructive might gave him _as large_ of a power up as you're thinking.


While uncontrolled, he still said the power-up was huge compared to before. I agree that the results weren't at their best though, but it seems it more than paid off after the timeskip. The comparaison with a similar move of Luffy is infact outstanding

From this



To This


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 3, 2015)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> He's likely referring to the Color Walk when Oda stated "Luffy, Zoro, and Nami were the trigger/core of One Piece.
> 
> During EL, Zoro was closer to Sanji but it's more of a result of Luffy pulling away due to his significant power-up, than Zoro and Sanji actually being close in strength. Basically, Luffy's power-up was so big that the only available outcome became Zoro is closer to Sanji. Now I don't think Thriller Bark was enough for Zoro to close the gap on Luffy, but his gaining of Shusui(and sacrifice) on TB while Luffy and Sanji gained nothing is enough to say he became closer to Luffy again, especially when the only reason he became closer to the object behind him(Sanji) was because the object infront of him(Luffy) moved ahead. The time-skip training also supports Zoro being closer to Luffy again after EL.
> 
> ...



_A more obvious difference between Zoro and Sanji could have been showcased during EL even with Luffy pulling ahead of them. Their opponents being only 20 doriki apart speaks for them alone, and it's a different matter from Luffy facing someone twice as strong. Oda could have had them separated by at least a few hundred doriki, or even a thousand, without altering the larger gap between Lucci and the next in line.

Luffy is a closer friend to Zoro than he is to Sanji and Zoro is indeed a bit stronger than Sanji. It's natural to use the strongest of the remaining crew members as point of reference in certain situations but as you said Luffy has various degrees of trust in his entire crew . We have the latest example that doesn't require me to dig much into older chapters, of Luffy trusting Sanji with leadership over half the crew, his ship, and even went along with his decision to attack the ship of a Yonko. Obviously, in the past as well we have various examples like trusting him to be able to save Robin during EL, or being sure that no matter what happens Sanji will survive when he disappeared during TB




I don't think that you can make a proper case for equality, or near equality between Luffy and Zoro, but what you listed would indeed be great evidence to prove that Zoro is stronger than Sanji, if anyone would argue the opposite.
_


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## Kaiser (Mar 3, 2015)

The douriki was mainly used to hype Lucci comparatively to the other members. Infact all what they were measuring was the physical strength of individual combattants and it makes sense considering that the rating was dependent on a physical hit and nothing else. Which means that things like Speed, Rokushiki Mastery, Devil Fruit, Swordsmanship or other external weapons weren't included. Hell Spandam himself explained how stronger he was with his weapon. If someone think about it this way, it would also explain how a Blueno who had 4 or 5times less douriki than Lucci could fight Base Luffy that well, even experimenting gear second first

Talking about devil fruits, it's not like Jyabura's or Kaku's were similar. One had a wolf and the other had a giraffe one, so the upgrade in their physical strength shouldn't be the same and that is something that is often overlooked in the Enies Lobby debate. Their physical strength were only measured in base, without factoring in the upgrades their devil fruits could give them. Hell, Jyabura himself implied as much to Kaku as a way to convince himself about his superiority. 

But judging by the physical structure of a giraffe, with his humongous body, it's highly likely however that he got a much greater physical strength(and thus douriki) upgrade than what a wolf related zoan devil fruit would get, which makes sense considering irl, a physical kick of a giraffe can easily kill a lion, and we could clearly see the difference in power in Kaku's Rankyaku compared to Jyabura's after he received that power upgrade. Hell, Zoro himself stated that his power increased that much exactly because of the body structure of the girafe, his humongous body, again confirming that claim. Jyabura wasn't even close to produce enough power to cut the tower of justice in half. Hell, he is the one who high tailed when Kaku was about to do his move

So in reality, while in appearance, one could say Kaku had 20 more douriki than Jyabura in base, Giraffe Kaku had a much higher douriki than Wolf Jyabura. And infact compared to the body structure of a leopard, probably even closer to Leopard Lucci's physical strength by an unknown margin. Now factor in the fact he had additional weapons making him much stronger, using them for his actual area of expertise(swordsmanship) where he was actually mentioned to be the best and you would know that the difference in strength between Giraffe Kaku and Wolf Jyabura was much higher than we think. In terms of rokushiki as well, Jyabura was spamming tekkai when i found Kaku more versatile overall. Lucci was the most versatile rokushiki user among all of them though, with moves like Kamisori and even knowing the Rokugan

TL;DR Kaku having 20 douriki more than Jyabura was only in base. The difference in their zoan fruit ability created a gap in physical strength unknown to readers, but because of some evidences like the difference in physical stature between their devil fruits(giraffe versus wolf), as well as clear visual difference in terms of their actual feats(Kaku having enough power to cut the tower of justice in half), along with outside fort points(rokushiki, swordsmanship), i think the difference was bigger than what the numbers seemed to originally imply. The douriki thing was just created to hype Lucci comparatively to the rest of the CP9 members. From the moment other characteristics like devil fruits were involved, they weren't as valuable anymore


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## HaxHax (Mar 3, 2015)

You're just rationalizing wankery. There's a reason why Oda gave all the characters powerlevels. He wanted to make a clear statement about the strength of the characters involved, especially after Luffy's fight with Franky in W7. (don't see that mentioned much compared to the whiskey peak gag, huh)



Kaiser said:


> TL;DR Kaku having 20 douriki more than Jyabura was only in base. The difference in their zoan fruit ability created a gap in physical strength unknown to readers, but because of some evidences like the difference in physical stature between their devil fruits(giraffe versus wolf)



I want there to be a strength gap, so I'm just going to imagine that there is one, because fuck knows. I mean this mongoloid giraffe thing with sticks for arms totally looks stronger than the swole wolf, right? Yeah that sounds like a great way to start an argument.



Kaiser said:


> as well as clear visual difference in terms of their actual feats(Kaku having enough power to cut the tower of justice in half), along with outside fort points(rokushiki, swordsmanship)



So why are you discounting the fact that Jyabura was confirmed to have greater tekkai mastery than anyone else in CP9? And "swordsmanship" is not a power up. It's a weapon of choice. You may as well count "clawmanship" for Jyabura then.

I mean, compare Jyabura moving and fighting while using tekkai to .

And, you know, Luffy wouldn't be able to cut the tower in half either. You know why? Because Luffy doesn't cut shit.


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## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Mar 4, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _A more obvious difference between Zoro and Sanji could have been showcased during EL even with Luffy pulling ahead of them. Their opponents being only 20 doriki apart speaks for them alone, and it's a different matter from Luffy facing someone twice as strong. Oda could have had them separated by at least a few hundred doriki, or even a thousand, without altering the larger gap between Lucci and the next in line.
> 
> Luffy is a closer friend to Zoro than he is to Sanji and Zoro is indeed a bit stronger than Sanji. It's natural to use the strongest of the remaining crew members as point of reference in certain situations but as you said Luffy has various degrees of trust in his entire crew . We have the latest example that doesn't require me to dig much into older chapters, of Luffy trusting Sanji with leadership over half the crew, his ship, and even went along with his decision to attack the ship of a Yonko. Obviously, in the past as well we have various examples like trusting him to be able to save Robin during EL, or being sure that no matter what happens Sanji will survive when he disappeared during TB
> 
> ...


_
Unlike Sanji's and Luffy's opponents ,Kaku was a swordsman so you can't really decide his real strength based on his kick or punch. Kaku was stronger than Jabra by a decent margin.

For example Zoro is capable of casually destroying Pica's golem but can Zoro pull such a feat with his bare hands? not a chance in hell. That's how big the difference b/w a swordsman with a bare hands and the same swordsman with his swords in his hands.

_



IijiNijiSanji said:


> No, he was bragging.


_
Stop using excuses.  Zoro never claimed that he is on a whole new level from his enemies. You can look at any fight of him, Zoro only claims that he's gone beat his enemy without having an idea of how strong his enemy is where as it is totally different in case of Pica. He claimed that he's on different level and it was proved to be true.
_





> Umm no. Starting of the chapter we see sanji together with zoro and co. Middle we see tashigi getting pounded and sanji coming in to save her. end we see Usopp asking zoro why sanji *just* left off. Sanji reached there very quickly, and he could sense tashigi's distress. He wouldn't unnecessarily leave Nami to go and look for trouble like that. He sensed a woman in distress, and went for it.



_By the time when Sanji appeared at their location, Vergo didn't even move an inch from the spot where he attacked her. Sanji reached there in the very next page of the chapter and you think he sensed her tears and appeared there in no time? Come up with an excused that makes more sense._




> Dodging is CoO now? Also when exactly did Zoro dodge anything from hody? They fought in chapter 617 and 618, Hody shot the water bullets at Neptune and his soldiers, zoro intercepted with a flying slash. Then 618 we see zoro one shotting him. Nothing else.


_
Oh by bad. I guess watching anime messed my brain. I thought that shit happened in manga._


----------



## Coruscation (Mar 4, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _And that Sanji was there, as the last guy standing next to Zoro. Let's not forget that,* Zoro could have been further distinguished from Sanji to the point where he's that much closer to his captain*, but Oda chose to have Sanji a step away from doing the same thing. So no, i don't really see the big distinction in Zoro's favor, he's simply that one step ahead of Sanji through portrayal as well, and *immediately after that happened Oda once again went out of his way to have two random guys that can see the whole thing tell Sanji about it, and give great praise not only to Zoro but Sanji as well for their actions at the time*, and Sanji's way of handling the outcome of what happened. Zoro get's the edge, it makes for a memorable moment that confirms Zoro's role as the first mate, sure it shows that Zoro and Sanji are not to be disregarded as not comparable to Luffy, because i agree with the difference in difficulty between their fights in EL and Luffy's, and that's about the extent of the implications resulting from Zoro's beautiful act of self sacrifice._



Why would he want to pull Zoro further away from Sanji? The point of Zoro's portrayal is not to distinguish him above Sanji but to distinguish him as comparable to Luffy. Which is what, indirectly, distinguishes him from Sanji, which some people have an awful lot of trouble admitting.

And what else did he to for Zoro? Oh, just had him directly called _the toughest person on the crew_. Knowing someone like Luffy is among them, I don't think you acknowledge the weight of that kind of statement.



> In manga Zoro and Luffy were only shown to be arguably that close during their Whiskey Peak fight. That's followed by Little Garden implying a sense of equality between Sanji and Zoro. The next implication of near equality only came as result of EL, and referred to Sanji and Zoro. I don't discuss other sources. I don't know how credible the sources themselves are or how accurate the translations.



Except it's not just that.

We have Zoro only joining Luffy's crew because he was blackmailed, and personally stating he'd kill Luffy under certain conditions.

We have Luffy personally being astonished by Zoro's toughness and grit.

We have Sanji being astonished at Luffy and Zoro's resolves in Baratie.

In Whiskey Peak they not only fight dead equally with a whole slew of mirror scenes, both of them openly admit they don't know who's stronger between them.

The implication you try to make that LG is equal to WP in terms of implying equality is an absolute falsehood. A _direct fight_ and a _direct statement_ is worth much more than the indirect portrayal of rivalry. To put them on even grounds is something only someone biased would do. On top of the events themselves, in Zoro and Luffy's case it was purely, 100% about strength. In Zoro and Sanji's case it is the dynamic of their rivalry that's being highlighted as well.

Again with EL, it has been discussed and you've already agreed. The best evaluations you can ask for are direct ones and ones where the characters are actually pushed to their limits. EL was neither of these. Luffy and Zoro have many throughout the series.

Unfortunately you don't get to say "I don't use other sources" and as such 100% dismiss not once but two instances of official material stating that Luffy = Zoro and Luffy/Zoro are on a higher level of strength than Sanji. You simply, flat out, do not get to do that and claim to have a fair judgment. That is not how a debate works.



> I'm not adamant on Zoro being 100% closer to Sanji than to Luffy. It is my belief, but i can easily see him right in between as well, or maybe even a bit closer to Luffy.  I've read every single chapter of the manga more than once and based on what i've seen up to this point you can't convince me that Zoro is all but Luffy's equal and a fight between the two would be comparable to Jimbe vs Ace or Akainu vs Aokiji.[/I]



Well, you do _completely dismiss_ multiple official sources stating flat out that Zoro is as strong as Luffy and that the two of them are on a slightly higher level than Sanji in strength. I'm sorry but this just reveals you as someone whose intentions are not to be fair and open. I don't need to convince you to change your opinion to mine, but if you can't acknowledge the validity of the possibility when there is so much material backing it then you are simply being unreasonable in this regard as a result of how much it would step on the toes of your personal preferences were it to be true.


----------



## Amol (Mar 4, 2015)

Zolo corrupting minds of good posters.
Such a shame 
Anyway Luffy is the strongest of the crew and will always remain the strongest of the crew .
And Sanji is still part of M3


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## Freechoice (Mar 4, 2015)

I don't understand why Zoro vs Luffy at Whiskey Peak has more worth than Zoro vs Sanji at Little Garden 

The first of which had comical undertones to it



Coruscation said:


> both of them openly admit they don't know who's stronger between them.



I have no idea how you interpreted that from


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## Amol (Mar 4, 2015)

I had thought that this rediculous notion of	Zoro being as strong as his Captain is only limited to likes of Extravlad .
Apparently we have more of them.
Luffy is quite pathetic captain if he needed to invent life shortening techniques to just keep up with his subordinate.
Like really pathetic.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 4, 2015)

_One should not try to find reasons to diminish the relevance of the small difference in doriki between their opponents, but instead should explain why Oda chose to have their opponents be separated by such a small margin. This is the first and only time a strength measuring tool is used by Oda, one that provides an exact numerical value, and Zoro's and Sanj's opponents get a near equal value in contrast to Luffy's. That's a conscious choice and can not be dismissed as meaningless, and it's obvious that Oda could have played it any other way. Kaku had swordsmanship, Jabra had a mobile tekkai based martial arts. Kaku had hours worth of experience, Jabra had years of using his DF and acting as the leader of the second CP 9 team beside Lucci's. None of these arguments are relevant though when simply addressing why Oda put such a close value on their opponents doriki the only time he used such a system in the manga.

*@ Coruscation *

He's more so compared to Sanji than he is compared to Luffy through that scene. They are the last two standing and willing to sacrifice themselves for their captain, with Zoro being given the edge that he always has and being the one out of the two to actually be allowed to do it. The comments of the random spectators aren't aimed at how great both Luffy and Zoro were in that scene, but how great Zoro and Sanji were. It's obvious and i see no reason why you'd judge that scene differently than Oda did through the characters he planted there for no other purpose.

Zoro is compared both with Luffy and Sanji because he is somewhere between the two. Your arguments work awfully well in proving that he is between the two, which i have no intention of arguing against, but you simply misunderstand that implication as him being closer to Luffy ( sometimes you seem to argue that you think he's even his equal, which i find surprising ). That's why he's being compared to Luffy a whole lot more than Sanji is compared to Luffy, that and because he is actually a closer friend to Luffy and they will have more scenes together, like Usopp is closer to Luffy than Sanji is as well. And it makes sense, when you have the second and third guy in line, the first guy will be more so comparable to the second, not because the gap is larger between the second and the third than it is between the first and the second, but because, naturally, the second is the second solely because the gap between him and the first is smaller than the gap between the first and the third.

I don't see why LG should be less relevant than Whiskey Peak, especially when EG follows as much more of  a confirmation of Little Garden than Whiskey Peak. Once again it is clearly not just a rivalry that Oda chose to compare Zoro and Sanji with, but one between perfect equals and proud fighters that continued their clash for a hundred years. He didn't just have them bicker and fight with each other but had them mirror the rivals through their competition and it's outcome. Zoro vs Luffy did not end with a draw, it was stopped prematurely while the opponents where evenly matched. I don't dismiss any importance beyond that outcome, but i don't see it as overriding something like Little Garden, which was not a one time event but continued through the rivalry between the two and was, as i already said, much closer to be confirmed the only time Oda decided to put such an exact numerical value on at least an aspect of one's strength in his manga.

I don't like to argue for or against something when using sources that i'm not 100 % sure of their credibility or accuracy. I could take your word for it that you can guarantee both of those for me, but i'm not sure a debate works that way either._


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 4, 2015)

Amol said:


> I had thought that this rediculous notion of	Zoro being as strong as his Captain is only limited to likes of Extravlad .
> Apparently we have more of them.
> Luffy is quite pathetic captain if he needed to invent life shortening techniques to just keep up with his subordinate.
> Like really pathetic.



Perhaps if Luffy actually trained every day.

Like Zoro. He would not need to use life shortening techniques?



Lol said:


> I don't understand why Zoro vs Luffy at Whiskey Peak has more worth than Zoro vs Sanji at Little Garden
> 
> The first of which had comical undertones to it
> 
> ...



Let me translate it for you.

X is saying This is a good chance to  see who is stronger me or you, Y agrees to said notion.


----------



## Kaiser (Mar 4, 2015)

HaxHax said:


> You're just rationalizing wankery. There's a reason why Oda gave all the characters powerlevels. He wanted to make a clear statement about the strength of the characters involved, especially after Luffy's fight with Franky in W7. (don't see that mentioned much compared to the whiskey peak gag, huh)


There is a reason their douriki were never measured after the implementation of devil fruits or are you trying to say their physical power doesn't increase when taking zoan form(specializing in physical combat)? Would contradict Jyabura himself as well as Zoro's statement around the fact "the humongous body of the giraffe increased his power to much greater extent"



> I want there to be a strength gap, so I'm just going to imagine that there is one, because fuck knows. I mean this mongoloid giraffe thing with sticks for arms totally looks stronger than the swole wolf, right? Yeah that sounds like a great way to start an argument.


There have always been shown to be a certain strength gap before or after Enies Lobby, but i prefer understand that the gap miraculously disappeared in one and only arc, over someone who trains more than me than listening to other possibilities that could make more sense. Since i don't want there to be a strength gap in a particular arc, i'm going to ignore their douriki were only measured in base leaving an unknown quantity after factoring in their zoan fruits. The extent was just a probability of mine using some manga evidences and real life logic



> So why are you discounting the fact that Jyabura was confirmed to have greater tekkai mastery than anyone else in CP9?


He was never stated to have greater tekkai mastery if i recall. All what was said is that he was the only one who could move with it(and eventhen the difference didn't seem to be that great visually compared to other guys like Fukuro or Blueno who showed the ability to move with their tekkai). Kaku and Lucci had stronger tekkai than him



> And "swordsmanship" is not a power up. It's a weapon of choice. You may as well count "clawmanship" for Jyabura then.


Of course, swordless Zoro is as strong as santoryu Zoro. It's the same thing for him man. After all, it's not like his physical strength will change with or without a weapon



> And, you know, Luffy wouldn't be able to cut the tower in half either. You know why? Because Luffy doesn't cut shit.


He can destroy it. No need in cutting. It's not like he was a rankyaku user. Luffy isn't Jyabura




Sir Curlyhat said:


> _One should not try to find reasons to diminish the relevance of the small difference in doriki between their opponents, but instead should explain why Oda chose to have their opponents be separated by such a small margin. This is the first and only time a strength measuring tool is used by Oda, one that provides an exact numerical value, and Zoro's and Sanj's opponents get a near equal value in contrast to Luffy's. That's a conscious choice and can not be dismissed as meaningless, and it's obvious that Oda could have played it any other way. Kaku had swordsmanship, Jabra had a mobile tekkai based martial arts. Kaku had hours worth of experience, Jabra had years of using his DF and acting as the leader of the second CP 9 team beside Lucci's. None of these arguments are relevant though when simply addressing why Oda put such a close value on their opponents doriki the only time he used such a system in the manga_


_
For the same reason he makes Luffy call Hyouzou "strong", yet while multiple times stronger, he gets one shotted by Zoro calling him too weak to kill his boredom. It's always to create hype(and some times fake ones) at the beginning of each arcs. Are you really thinking that their douriki strength didn't change at all while factoring in zoan devil fruits, whose main purposes is to increase physical combat stats? The real question you must ask yourself is why in a particular arc would they be portrayed to be this close when neither before or after they are portrayed similar in strength especially when Zoro trains more?_


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 4, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> For the same reason he makes Luffy call Hyouzou "strong", yet while multiple times stronger, he gets one shotted by Zoro calling him too weak to kill his boredom. It's always to create hype(and some times fake ones) at the beginning of each arcs. Are you really thinking that their douriki strength didn't change at all while factoring in zoan devil fruits, whose main purposes is to increase physical combat stats? The real question you must ask yourself is why in a particular arc would they be portrayed to be this close when neither before or after they are portrayed similar in strength especially when Zoro trains more?



_That's far from a convincing answer. Why would having Jabra and Kaku as almost perfect equals in terms of doriki be the ultimate solution to create hype ? Why not have Kaku closer to Lucci and a monster as well, does that create less hype ? Both sides will bring various arguments for what their DF transformation, experience and fighting style means for the two of them, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. What matters is that Oda put an almost perfect equal value on those two characters in contrast to Lucci. Everything else is fans going at each other with various degrees of bias.

They were often portrayed as similar in strength though. Little Garden compares them, EL compares them, even TB actually compares them a lot more than Luffy with either of them. You can dig for various instances through out the story, but you can even find such examples in the post time skip One Piece, the part where some have such skewed view on the gap between them based on Zoro's feats in an arc where Sanji does not get a fight. The first thing Oda does when Zoro makes an appearance post time skip is to renew his rivalry with Sanji and have them fight with each other while creating an equally fierce aura around them


*Spoiler*:  








Then he has Luffy defeat a Pacifista


*Spoiler*:  







While the two of them are paired together defeating one and arguing over it

*Spoiler*:  








Both of them damage the Kraken

*Spoiler*:  










While Luffy KO's it

*Spoiler*:  








Luffy KO's fifty  thousand fishmen



While Zoro and Sanji compete over the remaining fifty thousand



Luffy advances towards the leader while Zoro and Sanji makes sure his subordinates will not reach their captain

*Spoiler*:  








Oda made it his priority to once again establish this dynamic in the first two arcs of the time skip, with multiple, clear examples. _


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## Unclear Justice (Mar 4, 2015)

Amol said:


> Anyway Luffy is the strongest of the crew and will always remain the strongest of the crew .
> And Sanji is still part of M3



As long as Zoro is in between them those things are true no matter who Zoro is closer to and it's not like the majority of people who think that Zoro is closer to Luffy disagree on those statements.


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## Amol (Mar 4, 2015)

Unclear Justice said:


> As long as Zoro is in between them those things are true no matter who Zoro is closer to and it's not like the majority of people who think that Zoro is closer to Luffy disagree on those statements.



There is difference in being closer and in being equal .
I have problem with latter .
Luffy's efforts seems too pathetic if he got equal to him in his own crew. As I said before he uses techniques that shortens his life to gain strength.
Luffy have to be The strongest because of that.
As you said Zoro is in between them.
Luffy > Zoro > Sanji.


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## HaxHax (Mar 4, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _That's far from a convincing answer. Why would having Jabra and Kaku as almost perfect equals in terms of doriki be the ultimate solution to create hype ? Why not have Kaku closer to Lucci and a monster as well, does that create less hype ? Both sides will bring various arguments for what their DF transformation, experience and fighting style means for the two of them, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. What matters is that Oda put an almost perfect equal value on those two characters in contrast to Lucci. Everything else is fans going at each other with various degrees of bias.
> 
> They were often portrayed as similar in strength though. Little Garden compares them, EL compares them, even TB actually compares them a lot more than Luffy with either of them. You can dig for various instances through out the story, but you can even find such examples in the post time skip One Piece, the part where some have such skewed view on the gap between them based on Zoro's feats in an arc where Sanji does not get a fight. The first thing Oda does when Zoro makes an appearance post time skip is to renew his rivalry with Sanji and have them fight with each other while creating an equally fierce aura around them
> 
> ...



Don't worry, the manga is definitely on your side.

There's a reason why these people never bring any actual panels to the discussions. All they have is their vague and loose interpretations with no proper support.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 4, 2015)

_There's actually no great reason to think Zoro caught up to Luffy after EL to any extent. During TB Luffy and Sanji showcase further use and mastery of their EL "trump cards", DJ and gears, while Zoro shows no further mastery of his Asura. In exchange Zoro get's a new sword that makes up for it to whatever extent, and while Luffy is separated doing his own thing, Zoro and Sanji are the most outstanding SH's in their fight against Oars, shining through their outstanding physical exchanges, with Zoro deflecting one of his arms and Sanji deflecting his bazooka attack. After Luffy collapses at the end of the arc, once again the two featured characters are Zoro and Sanji, the last two to stand up willing to sacrifice for their captain, with Oda praising both of them through the two spectators planted there for that purpose. Sabaody has another M3 moment with the three of them vs the Pacifista, and then they get separated and Luffy goes through much harsher trials culminating with an extraordinary war, a stage much bigger than anything any SH witnessed up to that point. Why would Zoro meanwhile get closer to his Captain, the man that will become the King of the Pirates ? And then there's everyone having an opinion in regards to their time skip training, while Oda goes out of his way to deliver M3 moments and never, not even once separate Sanji from Zoro and Luffy within the group, but on the contrary separate Sanji and Zoro from Luffy on several occasions. And now Zoro fights Pica and somehow some find validation to their claims that go against all previous portrayal in Zoro's feats. Why is that ? Luffy has comparable large scale destruction feats since two arcs ago, while being faster than Zoro, more mobile and clearly more proficient in CoO. Zoro showed us what he's best at, and Luffy's outdated feats are about as good while being a much more well rounded fighter than either Zoro or Sanji. The way i see it, no gaps were closed. Luffy is ahead and Zoro either pulled a bit away from Sanji but not enough to be closer to Luffy, or Sanji is as close to him as he was during EL._


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## HaxHax (Mar 4, 2015)

Speaking of which, here's another one of those scenes, from the TB fight against Oars.


And another..


*Spoiler*: __


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 4, 2015)

A lot of teamwork was involved against oars. I would not count atleast that particular moment here


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## Unclear Justice (Mar 4, 2015)

Amol said:


> Luffy have to be The strongest because of that.


I don't think there is the need to dive that far into the topic.
Luffy being the main character and captain is enough for me to say that he is the number one in his own crew and that he should always get the benefit of doubt even if things look close at some point.

Luffy's techniques shortening his life spans is something that seems more appropriate to use to explain why he can take on people that were or are considered major threats.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 4, 2015)

HaxHax said:


> Don't worry, the manga is definitely on your side.
> 
> There's a reason why these people never bring any actual panels to the discussions. All they have is their vague and loose interpretations with no proper support.



Dem Manga facts.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 4, 2015)

*There's a reason Sanji isn't a supernova.*
*There's a reason Luffy has only ever tag teamed with Zoro against an enemy.*
There's a reason only Luffy and Zoro have shown hardening. 
*There's a reason only Zoro has been mistaken for being the captain.*
There's a reason Monet has only acknowledged Luffy & Zoro's strength in the crew.


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## Kaiser (Mar 4, 2015)

Panels uh? Ok let's start then







*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 































*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 

















More comparisons












*Conclusion:* While it's true Sanji has been often compared to Zoro, Zoro is the one who has been often paralleled with Luffy. There is a difference in being part of the monster trio, and being close to the other monsters. Even in the monster trio there can have different types of monsters. All what Sanji's portrayal suggest is that he is Luffy's left hand man while Zoro is the right, not that he is actually close to him. And infact, since the new world started, the real monster trio now is Luffy/Law/Zoro. They are the supernova from the worse generation, the one who actually take down arc protagonists and they sometimes do it even in similar ways(whether in a Law-Luffy comparison, Law-Zoro comparison or Zoro-Luffy comparison)


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 4, 2015)

> There is a difference in being part of the monster trio, and being close to the other monsters. Even in the monster trio there can have different types of monsters.


_
The type that is the captain and the other type that consists of his right and left hand man, who are shown constantly separated and showcased on a lesser level than the captain within the group ? There's not a single M3 moment of Luffy and Zoro being separated from Sanji within the group, while Zoro and Sanji are more often than not, especially post time skip, separated from their captain and portrayed as more so comparable to each other when the M3 acts as a group. Stuff like "real monster trio" is nothing short of amusing.  Might as well add Bellamy to that nice parody you got going there, as someone that used hardening and broke the hardening of a real monster trio. Also i will congratulate Zoro for becoming part of the real monster trio, since two chapters ago he lacked what seem to be the requirements. Let's not wait for Sanji to get a fight though, it's all about living the moment and pushing the idea of new "real" groups of monsters that replace the former "fake" one's, based on the latest feats._


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## Kaiser (Mar 4, 2015)

We didn't need latest chapter to know Zoro will defeat an arc protagonist like we don't need following chapters to know Luffy will defeat Doflamingo. See the pattern dude

Fishmen Island



Punk Hazard


*Spoiler*: __ 








Dressrosa


*Spoiler*: __ 










It's clear there is no seperation since a while now


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 4, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _
> Let's not wait for Sanji to get a fight though, it's all about living the moment and pushing the idea of new "real" groups of monsters that replace the former "fake" one's, based on the latest feats._



Oda has made it evident since Saboady.

Sanji isn't a supernova for a reason


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 4, 2015)

_Those are not M3 group moments and i don't see anything there that makes Zoro as strong as Luffy. Is it because Zoro defeated an executive ? Add some of the Colosseum fighters. Is it because Zoro defeated a Seat ? Add Kyros as well. Is it because Zoro's attack broke his opponents hardening. Add Bellamy and Sai to the party. I linked the instances where the group was showcased post time skip, there is a constant separation between Luffy and the other two.  _


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## HaxHax (Mar 4, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> Panels uh? Ok let's start then
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Most of these panels seem completely random???

Are any of them relevant?

*Conclusion*: You're just linking random shit like it means something, while Oda keeps piling on the obvious Zoro-Sanji comparisons at every chance he gets.


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## Magentabeard (Mar 4, 2015)

HaxHax said:


> You're just linking random shit like it means something, while Oda keeps piling on the obvious Zoro-Sanji comparisons at every chance he gets.



You must be 300 chapters behind or something. Is it possible to be this deluded? When was the last significant Zoro-Sanji comparison? Its all about putting Zoro on the same level as Luffy and Law.


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## HaxHax (Mar 4, 2015)

Magentabeard said:


> You must be 300 chapters behind or something. Is it possible to be this deluded? When was the last significant Zoro-Sanji comparison? Its all about putting Zoro on the same level as Luffy and Law.



Zoro on the same level as Luffy


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## Magentabeard (Mar 4, 2015)

HaxHax said:


> Zoro on the same level as Luffy



Zoro on the same level as Sanji


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 4, 2015)

*Difference Between Supernovas and Okamas*




​


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## Typhon (Mar 4, 2015)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> He's likely referring to the Color Walk when Oda stated "Luffy, Zoro, and Nami were the trigger/core of One Piece.
> 
> During EL, Zoro was closer to Sanji but it's more of a result of Luffy pulling away due to his significant power-up, than Zoro and Sanji actually being close in strength. Basically, Luffy's power-up was so big that the only available outcome became Zoro is closer to Sanji. Now I don't think Thriller Bark was enough for Zoro to close the gap on Luffy, but his gaining of Shusui(and sacrifice) on TB while Luffy and Sanji gained nothing is enough to say he became closer to Luffy again, especially when the only reason he became closer to the object behind him(Sanji) was because the object infront of him(Luffy) moved ahead. The time-skip training also supports Zoro being closer to Luffy again after EL.
> 
> ...



Okay thanks.

I never believed Zoro actually caught up to Luffy as it logically doesn't make sense. We all agree that the SHs get stronger from island to island. And Zoro was gimped after TB while Luffy was off running a gauntlet from Amazon Lily to Marineford. What was Zoro doing while Luffy was having the hardest fight of his life? Zoro shouldn't have the potential to keep up with Luffy after all the hype received during that time.

Luffy also believes in Sanji's capabilities. They're his wings for a reason. Those points you brought are more of Zoro being the first mate than his equal, which no one denies that importance.

Edit: And in TB, Luffy used Gear stacking while Sanji used new variants of Diable Jambe. What do you mean by they got nothing?


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## batman22wins (Mar 4, 2015)

Typhon said:


> Okay thanks.
> 
> I never believed Zoro actually caught up to Luffy as it logically doesn't make sense. We all agree that the SHs get stronger from island to island. And Zoro was gimped after TB while Luffy was off running a gauntlet from Amazon Lily to Marineford. What was Zoro doing while Luffy was having the hardest fight of his life? Zoro shouldn't have the potential to keep up with Luffy after all the hype received during that time.
> 
> ...



Didn't Sanji mess up his whole leg by kicking Kuma?


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## Freechoice (Mar 4, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Let me translate it for you.
> 
> X is saying This is a good chance to  see who is stronger me or you, Y agrees to said notion.


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## trance (Mar 4, 2015)

batman22wins said:


> Didn't Sanji mess up his whole leg by kicking Kuma?



An exhausted and worn Sanji did about as well against Kuma as an equally exhausted and worn Zoro.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 4, 2015)

Trance said:


> An exhausted and worn Sanji did about as well against Kuma as an equally exhausted and worn Zoro.



Zoro did better. Sanji got one hit in and hurt himself. Though that's more because he was using his body vs zoro using high grade swords.


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## batman22wins (Mar 4, 2015)

Trance said:


> An exhausted and worn Sanji did about as well against Kuma as an equally exhausted and worn Zoro.



What are you talking about? Sanji tried one hit then fell and did noting else then got oneshotted by Zoro. Zoro was dodging Kuma Paw cannon and taking hits from him and getting back up.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 4, 2015)

Zoro was a beast even at his limits he found time to pull off a blitz


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## Lawliet (Mar 4, 2015)

I don't understand why some of Sanji's fans feel the need to prove that Zoro and Sanji are really really close in strength. we all like Sanji, but we don't make him something he's not. So please just stop. Every feat in the Manga disagrees with what you all are saying. Zoro is really really close to Luffy and would give him a Luffy vs Lucci fight. Sanji can't. Blondie got his own merits. Let's just leave it there.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 4, 2015)

Lol said:


>





Problem sir?


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## HaxHax (Mar 4, 2015)

I don't understand why most of Zoro's fans feel the need to prove that Zoro and Luffy are really really close in strength. we all like Zoro, but we don't make him something he's not. So please just stop. Every feat in the Manga disagrees with what you all are saying. Zoro is really really close to Sanji and would give him a Luffy vs Lucci fight. Luffy won't. Mosstop got his own merits. Let's just leave it there.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 4, 2015)

Zoro>Luffy.

And i can prove it with manga panels. 

Nothing else.


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## Typhon (Mar 4, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I don't understand why some of Sanji's fans feel the need to prove that Zoro and Sanji are really really close in strength. we all like Sanji, but we don't make him something he's not. So please just stop. Every feat in the Manga disagrees with what you all are saying. Zoro is really really close to Luffy and would give him a Luffy vs Lucci fight. Sanji can't. Blondie got his own merits. Let's just leave it there.



You know this works both ways right? Why do Zoro fans need to prove he's closer to Luffy then he is to Sanji?

Edit: Haxhax had this post covered.


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## batman22wins (Mar 5, 2015)

Typhon said:


> You know this works both ways right? Why do Zoro fans need to prove he's closer to Luffy then he is to Sanji?
> 
> Edit: Haxhax had this post covered.



We not proving anything. Oda said in the databooks and the manga clearly shows this. Zoro portrayal,feats etc... All surpass Sanji. Shit Pda doesn't even consider Sanji a core of the manga he replaced him and said Nami for God sakes Bro you not only fighting with us with your stupid Logic, but oda himself. We didn't make Zoro the 2nd main character,we didn't make him have the 2nd most panel time(Even if the manga started when Sanji joined Zoro still has more panel time),We didn't write the databooks, We didn't say Luffy and Zoro are the core of the manga, we make Zoro have better feats, We didn't make Zoro one shot Sanji at TB and then took 10 times the pain Sanji suffered while not getting knocked out etc..... We are not doing these things.


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## Typhon (Mar 5, 2015)

So is it insecurity then? Why else would you guys feel the need to bring such things up all the time?

Oh, and the databooks also said Sabo was dead.


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## batman22wins (Mar 5, 2015)

Typhon said:


> So is it insecurity then? Why else would you guys feel the need to bring such things up all the time?
> 
> Oh, and the databooks also said Sabo was dead.



That's a plot point. Just like the Naruto databook said Obito was dead. It's not going to give away surprises Power and information on characters are on point through.


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## Magentabeard (Mar 5, 2015)

Zoro shits on Sanji and this is not up for debate. Get over your wishful thinking.


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## Lawliet (Mar 5, 2015)

Typhon said:


> You know this works both ways right? Why do Zoro fans need to prove he's closer to Luffy then he is to Sanji?
> 
> Edit: Haxhax had this post covered.




You'd have a point if Zoro fans were the ones to start thees shit every time. I usually read threads from page to to last page and read/skim through every post. In most cases, it's Sanji's fans who start shit just because. Go figure.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 5, 2015)

Do you havae a link on that databook?


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## Typhon (Mar 5, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> You'd have a point if Zoro fans were the ones to start thees shit every time. I usually read threads from page to to last page and read/skim through every post. In most cases, it's Sanji's fans who start shit just because. Go figure.



Right.... so I guess all these bashing threads about how Sanji is no longer in Zoro's league are just my imagination. I'd actually like you to point out a thread made by a Sanji fan expressing Sanji=Zoro


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## Amol (Mar 5, 2015)

Such laughable posts .
Zolotards never stops to amuse me.


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## maupp (Mar 5, 2015)

Zoro>Sanji and he would mid diff him at worst, let just leave it at that. There is nothing one can do to go against manga portrayal, feats etc. You lots just need to stop, it's getting a bit embarrassing


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## Lawliet (Mar 5, 2015)

Typhon said:


> Right.... so I guess all these bashing threads about how Sanji is no longer in Zoro's league are just my imagination. I'd actually like you to point out a thread made by a Sanji fan expressing Sanji=Zoro



I don't really save threads on a file so I can bring them up later.

Oh and I noticed they don't make a lot of threads about it, they just feel the urge to post in a thread and turn it into a Sanji could've done that thread.  But again, this was all before the recent events of Dressorsa and late PH. After those two, Sanji just went to shit in comparison to Zoro.


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## Suit (Mar 5, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> You'd have a point if Zoro fans were the ones to start thees shit every time. I usually read threads from page to to last page and read/skim through every post. In most cases, it's Sanji's fans who start shit just because. Go figure.



You are a goddamned liar and you know it.


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## trance (Mar 5, 2015)

I believe I gave a fair and rational assessment of this matchup. 



> Zoro certainly has the move set to end Sanji quickly. However, most of them can be avoided via superior speed + aerial maneuverability + Observation Haki, evening it out.
> 
> In a direct clash, Zoro would prove stronger but it's not like Sanji is vastly below him in stats. He'd force Zoro to continuously ramp up the intensity of his attacks and exert more energy. He'll no doubt score hits on Zoro and while Zoro's monstrous endurance will help him wonders in this regard, he'll still accumulate damage and battle fatigue. I don't see Sanji pushing Zoro to his absolute utmost limits but the it should be a difficult and arduous battle for the swordsman.
> 
> Overall, high difficulty.


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## Lawliet (Mar 5, 2015)

StrawHat said:


> You are a goddamned liar and you know it.



Nope, Nope I am not. I've made the same statement in another thread before and gave examples. I'm not going to repeat the same things over and over. Sanji fans are insecure, and everyone knows it.


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## trance (Mar 5, 2015)

I'm in total awe at the sheer hubris of some Sanji and Zoro fans.


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:
			
		

> He's more so compared to Sanji than he is compared to Luffy through that scene. They are the last two standing and willing to sacrifice themselves for their captain, with Zoro being given the edge that he always has and being the one out of the two to actually be allowed to do it. The comments of the random spectators aren't aimed at how great both Luffy and Zoro were in that scene, but how great Zoro and Sanji were. It's obvious and i see no reason why you'd judge that scene differently than Oda did through the characters he planted there for no other purpose.



It's like you don't see past the surface of a scene. There is an underlying meaning to Zoro being the one to take the FULL brunt of LUFFY'S pain, on top of his own. It's not in your face overbearing. Zoro silently bears the full brunt of it because such is his role. Not explicit, but implicitly understood, like it has always been, that he is a man of the same caliber as his captain. Of course multiple sources say it outright as well, but Oda doesn't constantly barrage us with overbearing crap. He understands subtext.



> Zoro is compared both with Luffy and Sanji because he is somewhere between the two.



This is not what all that evidence indicates.



> you simply misunderstand that implication as him being closer to Luffy



That's rather funny. I'm the one who "misunderstands" the implications of the events when my interpretation is the same as that of official materials? Does that seem like I'm the one misunderstanding to you?



> I don't see why LG should be less relevant than Whiskey Peak, especially when EG follows as much more of a confirmation of Little Garden than Whiskey Peak. Once again it is clearly not just a rivalry that Oda chose to compare Zoro and Sanji with, but one between perfect equals and proud fighters that continued their clash for a hundred years. He didn't just have them bicker and fight with each other but had them mirror the rivals through their competition and it's outcome.



And again, it's done on the level of the rivalry. Not directly on the level of strength. DIRECT comparisons are done more between Luffy and Zoro. And the indirect comparisons that come in the most dire moments, where the characters are pushed the most, in the moments of greatest significance, are generally between Luffy and Zoro. Luffy and Zoro is subtext, implied, understated, but true from the very inception of the manga; Zoro being considered one of the 3 cores of the series itself. Zoro and Sanji is explicit, in your face, but played more for cool scenes than an underlying significance, which is highlighted by how the comparisons are more indirect, comical and stylish. That's not to say there is no underlying significance at all. It just isn't _as much_ as there is, and always has been, between Luffy and Zoro. That is why the gap between Luffy and Zoro, such as it is, is smaller. Which is exactly in line with Zoro's role in the crew, his actions in the series and his personality type. Zoro being closer to Sanji is in line with none of it. Zoro being smack dab in the middle is a moderate fit.



> Zoro vs Luffy did not end with a draw, it was stopped prematurely while the opponents where evenly matched.



Which is _literally_ more than has ever happened between Zoro and Sanji. Oda has never once had Zoro and Sanji actually go at each other bloodlusted and viciously beat each other up. And I notice how you ignore and gloss over the fact that Luffy and Zoro personally acknowledged they didn't even know who was stronger between them.



> I don't like to argue for or against something when using sources that i'm not 100 % sure of their credibility or accuracy. I could take your word for it that you can guarantee both of those for me, but i'm not sure a debate works that way either.



That sure has a nice ring to it, but I'm quite certain you don't like to acknowledge them because of their content, not their credibility. They're databooks. Official ones. Databooks in relation to a Shonen series are essentially complementary canon. If they contradict the source material the source material always takes precedence, but if they merely clarify, or reveal new information, then they're credible. They can be viewed as level 2 canon, with the manga and personal statements from Oda being level 1 canon. You absolutely *can not* dismiss them completely and still claim to be giving a fair judgment of the issue at hand. That is completely intellectually dishonest and fallacious and only someone who is unwilling to acknowledge facts that go against their personal preferences would do so.


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## MrWano (Mar 5, 2015)

That avatar though


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## HaxHax (Mar 5, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I don't really save threads on a file so I can bring them up later.



Because every last wank thread is made by you Zoro fetishists.



oOLawlietOo said:


> You'd have a point if Zoro fans were the ones to start thees shit every time.



So what you're trying to say here is.. That he has a point?



oOLawlietOo said:


> Nope, Nope I am not. I've made the same statement in another thread before and gave examples. I'm not going to repeat the same things over and over. Sanji fans are insecure, and everyone knows it.



The irony and delusion.

Here's what's really what though, I'm not even a die-hard Sanji fan. As much of a fan as of any other character, of course. I'm just really opposed to the hardcore Zoro wanking taking place day and night.


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## batman22wins (Mar 5, 2015)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> Strength: Luffy-5, Zoro-5, Sanji-4
> 
> Edit: I'll reply to Typhon later.



This and I think he mentions it in another databook too.  No matter what happens Sanji fans want him to be in his league, but if even the author is against you I don't see this happening.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 5, 2015)

Magentabeard said:


> Zoro shits on Sanji and this is not up for debate. Get over your wishful thinking.



This.


Even in this thread people are debating about Zoro vs Sanji.


There debating about whether Zoro is above Luffy.


And if the last chapter is anything to go by, some people on Dressrosa share a similar sentiment.


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## Kaiser (Mar 5, 2015)

Trance said:


> I'm in total awe at the sheer hubris of some Sanji and Zoro fans.


I hope you're not talking about me


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## Freechoice (Mar 5, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> I hope you're not talking about me



He's talking about me


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## Suit (Mar 5, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Nope, Nope I am not. I've made the same statement in another thread before and gave examples. I'm not going to repeat the same things over and over. Sanji fans are insecure, and everyone knows it.



Dude, you are proven wrong by the sheer fact that most of the Zoro-tards are nothing but trolls. And the fact that Zoro fans are every bit as "insecure" as the "insecure" Sanji fans (none of which I've actually encountered) when it comes to Zoro's placement in relation to Luffy.

At least the Sanji fans are humble and admit that Zoro > Sanji, though. Zoro-tards actually think that he's as strong as Luffy which proves how mentally ill they are.

Gonna just rectify your bullshit accusations of Sanji fans starting the conflicts now by telling you the truth: Zoro-tards write bullshit, then Sanji fans rebut with nothing but solid evidence and hardly ever whine about it the way you've implied.


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## mastergimmy (Mar 5, 2015)

Lets base this entirely on what characters have shown after the timeskip

Sanji:

1. Defeating Wadatsumi
2. Fought a vice admiral for a short time but ending up having his leg cracked
3. Fought Doflamingo for a short time who blocked his DJ kicks without busoshoka and not sustaining any damage who then gets saved by law- do remember DD actually used his hardening against Luffy's gatling
4. Get his heart exchanged by law - haki indication?

Zoro:

1. Cuts a dragon in half
2. makes Monet shit her pants without even fighting
3. Sliced something that is the size of a city and one shot the executive with full haki armour and did not sustain single injury - shows how strong his haki is
4. Getting overpowered by an admiral but manages to push him back with a slash
5. Continuous wanking from other characters

No matter how you put it, Oda is clearly wanking Zoro, not fans. There is simply no debate, his feats are better.


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## Bohemian Knight (Mar 5, 2015)

Hey man, Imma Zoro fan

Should be a high diff fight. Feats clearly indicate less but we all know Sanji is gonna show something dope the next time he appears. I'm not going to slight Sanji in my assessment for his absence

I will say that Sanji's feats and portrayal right now are looking pretty dusty compared to Zoro's. The wankers take shit and blow it up, but the reality is that Sanji is the one who needs to play catch-up, not Zoro


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> And again, it's done on the level of the rivalry. Not directly on the level of strength. DIRECT comparisons are done more between Luffy and Zoro. And the indirect comparisons that come in the most dire moments, where the characters are pushed the most, in the moments of greatest significance, are generally between Luffy and Zoro. Luffy and Zoro is subtext, implied, understated, but true from the very inception of the manga; Zoro being considered one of the 3 cores of the series itself. Zoro and Sanji is explicit, in your face, but played more for cool scenes than an underlying significance, which is highlighted by how the comparisons are more indirect, comical and stylish. That's not to say there is no underlying significance at all. It just isn't _as much_ as there is, and always has been, between Luffy and Zoro. That is why the gap between Luffy and Zoro, such as it is, is smaller. Which is exactly in line with Zoro's role in the crew, his actions in the series and his personality type. Zoro being closer to Sanji is in line with none of it. Zoro being smack dab in the middle is a moderate fit.


Their rivalry isn't about whose the better chef, crew-mate, or whatever, it is _directly_ about strength. And Oda does indeed consistently _directly_ compare Zoro and Sanji in strength, in all the major arcs throughout the series. In Arlong-Park, each respectively face Arlong's top subordinates Kuroobi and Hachan. In Alabast, Zoro and Sanji literally face No 1 and No 2 respectively. In Enies Lobbies, Kaku is a mere 20 points in Doriki higher than Jabra, but Jabra had more exp with his DF, and both specialize in a specific Rokushiki art. And most certainly Hachan is closer to Kuroobi than Arlong, Mr1 is closer to Mr2 than Crocodile, Kaku is closer to Jabra than Lucci, and so on. This isn't a subtle or indirect comparison being drawn by Oda, it is a _direct_ comparison thrown in the readers face to the point of establishing an obvious pattern. 

One can argue there were times when Zoro was close to Luffy in strength, but at those times Sanji is also close to Luffy in strength. Luffy is close to Zoro & Sanji in some arcs, while he's further away in others, as the plot demands, but Zoro and Sanji consistently remain within the same general static range of each other. At least this was the case in Part I of the story. In Part II it's less clear, but mostly because Sanji hasn't had a chance to fight in a major arc. His obvious DR opponent, Vergo, was given to Law for plot purposes, and that is why he is written out of DR as the DD's other to subordinate had already fallen and there is no one suitable for Sanji to fight. Most likely next time there is a big arc, Sanji will go back to facing top subordinates alongside Zoro.

Though even if, by some small chance, the paradigm does shift and Zoro is always ahead of Sanji from now on by a decent margin, that would be something that Oda would have to demonstrate in the future, and in no way discounts the very real standings that the crew had throughout all of Part I; Luffy >= Zoro ≈ Sanji.

And the  ≈ is there for a reason, as I do think Zoro typically holds the edge, but he's never been demonstrated to pull ahead of Sanji the way Luffy at times pulls ahead of Zoro/Sanji.


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

So you also ignore official material, character statements and direct 1v1 fights? You claim to be able to interpret the manga but totally skim the countless times emphasizing Zoro's closeness and at times even equality to his captain in order to prop up the Zoro/Sanji stuff that is never as direct and usually tend more toward comedy and smaller scenes, though there are significant portions as well although they are outnumbered by the Luffy/Zoro ones? You claim to understand writing but think it's more reasonable for Zoro to be closer to Sanji than to Luffy when Zoro trains more, fights stronger enemies, fights more enemies, gets more power-ups, has strength more emphasized in his character, has strength more emphasized in his role in the crew and has no other qualities the way Sanji does?

There is no fucking paradigm shift; Zoro has always been closer to Luffy and ahead of Sanji, though all three are on a similar level.

OK; have fun being delusional, I'm moving on. I'll continue this with any reasonable Sanji fan who listens to reason at least on some level.


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## HaxHax (Mar 5, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> So you also ignore official material, character statements and direct 1v1 fights? You claim to be able to interpret the manga but totally skim the countless times emphasizing Zoro's closeness and at times even quality to his captain in order to prop up the Zoro/Sanji stuff that are never as direct and usually tend more toward comedy and smaller scenes, though there are significant portions as well although they are *outnumbered by the Luffy/Zoro ones*?
> 
> OK; have fun, moving on. I'll continue this with any reasonable Sanji fan who listens to reason at least on some level.



, 8/10


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

The truth can be funny at times.


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## HaxHax (Mar 5, 2015)

Let me know when you have something that isn't a gag scene from early 2001.

Because Oda is pretty in-your-face with the Zoro-Sanji stuff.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> So you also ignore official material, character statements and direct 1v1 fights?


All the stuff I cited was from the official material 



> You claim to be able to interpret the manga but totally skim the countless times emphasizing Zoro's closeness and at times even equality to his captain in order to prop up the Zoro/Sanji stuff


I said Zoro is at times close to Luffy 



> that is never as direct and usually tend more toward comedy and smaller scenes,


I already spoke about _direct_ comparisons, i'm not going to repeat myself.



> though there are significant portions as well although they are outnumbered by the Luffy/Zoro ones?


Oh Coruscation just stop 



> You claim to understand writing but think it's more reasonable for Zoro to be closer to Sanji than to Luffy when Zoro trains more


Going off the training shown, Zoro should be >>>>>>>> Luffy, since he's the only one shown training his ass off during down time. Ether we must assume Sanji and Zoro are also training off panel, have a higher growth-rate than Zoro, or Oda just doesn't give a shit. Pick your poison, but this argument is irrelevant, in this manga.



> fights stronger enemies


_copy -_  In Arlong-Park, each respectively face Arlong's top subordinates Kuroobi and Hachan. In Alabast, Zoro and Sanji literally face No 1 and No 2 respectively. In Enies Lobbies, Kaku is a mere 20 points in Doriki higher than Jabra, but Jabra had more exp with his DF, and both specialize in a specific Rokushiki art. And most certainly Hachan is closer to Kuroobi than Arlong, Mr1 is closer to Mr2 than Crocodile, Kaku is closer to Jabra than Lucci, and so on. _- paste_



> fights more enemies


I guess Sanji was stronger in Drum Island as he fought way more enemies considering the amount of Polar-Rabbits he own'd. And Hakuba > Zoro since he owned way more enemies this arc. 



> gets more power-ups


Nope. They both got stronger with each island they visted, than got a big power up in W7/EL, than got stronger with each island, than got TS-Power ups, and than got stronger w/ each island again.



> has strength more emphasized in his character


Nami wants to create a map of the world, Chopper wants to be the greatest doctor, Brooke wants to be a great musician, and Robin wants to be a great archeologist.

Usopp is stronger than those characters, because his dream is more strength oriented, right...right..



> There is no fucking paradigm shift; Zoro has always been closer to Luffy and ahead of Sanji, though all three are on a similar level.


Yeah because:

 Zoro fought Arsong, who was the duel captain of the Arlong Pirates w/ Arlong
 Zoro fought Nile-Crocodile, Crocodile's equally strong twin brother
 Kaku had 4,000 Doriki like Lucci

Yup and all those times when he fought enemies more equivalent to Sanji's enemies; Hachan, Mr 1, etc... those were all just some Doujinshi the Sanji fan Loda wrote. 



> I'll continue this with any reasonable Sanji fan who listens to reason at least on some level.


Yeah as a Zoro-fan, i'm toutes super biased for Sanji


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

Turrin said:
			
		

> All the stuff I cited was from the official material



Picking some, ignoring what didn't suit you. Intellectual honesty right there, right?



> I said Zoro is at times close to Luffy



Oh but only at times. And he's never more than trivially above Sanji. Because despite having virtually everything combat-related imaginable over Sanji, this never results in more than a trivial advantage over him. Because Sanji is just that naturally awesome or Oda doesn't give a shit or something? Nevermind, of course you don't have an explanation.



> I already spoke about direct comparisons, i'm not going to repeat myself.



You didn't. Zoro and Sanji fighting two enemies, who are ostensibly of similar strength, is an indirect comparison. A direct comparison would be them fighting each other. Luffy and Zoro have done this while bloodlusted and were portrayed as dead equal whilst they both said they didn't know who was stronger. Zoro and Sanji have never fought each other seriously. Granted, nearly all comparisons are indirect, but there are also degrees of indirectness. It will likely come as no surprise that the less indirect stuff favors Luffy and Zoro: especially Thriller Bark where Sanji was KO'd (hit his limit) and Zoro went on to endure the pain that KO'd Luffy on top of his own (his limit is showcased as significantly higher).



> Going off the training shown, Zoro should be >>>>>>>> Luffy, since he's the only one shown training his ass off during down time. Ether we must assume Sanji and Zoro are also training off panel, have a higher growth-rate than Zoro, or Oda just doesn't give a shit. Pick your poison, but this argument is irrelevant, in this manga.



Or maybe it fucking matters but other things weigh it up for Luffy. Such as being the fucking captain of the crew thus bearing the highest responsibility of having strength, and fighting the strongest enemies. But Zoro has higher responsibility than Sanji in terms of strength and he fights stronger enemies than Sanji, so there's no reason his training shouldn't be giving him an edge compared to Sanji who doesn't train/train as much. There is *absolutely no reason* that Zoro training whilst Sanji doesn't shouldn't give him an edge over Sanji.

You apparently don't know how evidence works; it's indicative, not proof, and a single aspect is just one out of a myriad different ones which all contribute to the bigger picture. You can't dispute the bigger picture by saying that one piece of evidence doesn't _have_ to mean what the bigger picture, that is all the pieces of evidence taken together as they all point in the same direction, is indicating.



> copy - In Arlong-Park, each respectively face Arlong's top subordinates Kuroobi and Hachan. In Alabast, Zoro and Sanji literally face No 1 and No 2 respectively. In Enies Lobbies, Kaku is a mere 20 points in Doriki higher than Jabra, but Jabra had more exp with his DF, and both specialize in a specific Rokushiki art. And most certainly Hachan is closer to Kuroobi than Arlong, Mr1 is closer to Mr2 than Crocodile, Kaku is closer to Jabra than Lucci, and so on. - paste



So he fights stronger enemies. You just said so yourself.

Nice to leave out Ohm who he fought and beat in an arc where Sanji fought no-one 1v1. Nice to also leave out Ryuuma who was far stronger than Absalom.



> I guess Sanji was stronger in Drum Island as he fought way more enemies considering the amount of Polar-Rabbits he own'd. And Hakuba > Zoro since he owned way more enemies this arc.



I guess you don't have any comprehension of how evidence works? See above.



> Nope. They both got stronger with each island they visted, than got a big power up in W7/EL, than got stronger with each island, than got TS-Power ups, and than got stronger w/ each island again.



No. Zoro got a power-up in Arabasta with cutting steel. He then got another in Skypiea when he learned to throw flying slashes. He got one in Thriller Bark when he aquired a new sword. Sanji didn't get a power-up in any of these cases.

But he just fucking keeps up anyway, right? By virtue of the magical "getting stronger each island"? That's totally fair to Zoro's character that all the things he do and gets that Sanji doesn't gives him _absolutely nothing_ in return?



> Nami wants to create a map of the world, Chopper wants to be the greatest doctor, Brooke wants to be a great musician, and Robin wants to be a great archeologist.
> 
> Usopp is stronger than those characters, because his dream is more strength oriented, right...right..



Again, you don't seem to know how evidence works. See above, etc.



> Yeah because:
> 
> Zoro fought Arsong, who was the duel captain of the Arlong Pirates w/ Arlong
> Zoro fought Nile-Crocodile, Crocodile's equally strong twin brother
> ...



This is a pointless irrelevancy as the strength of their enemies is not the strengths of Zoro and Sanji respectively.

Do you even realize that fucking official material, coming out at around the time some of those fights happened, states that Luffy and Zoro are at the same level of strength and both are above Sanji?

And you're going to call my interpretations, which are in line with that official material, the wrong ones?

The general trend is either:

Luffy fights enemy and wins with high difficulty
Zoro and/or Sanji beat their enemies low difficulty

or

Luffy fights enemy and wins with extreme-diff + help
Zoro and Sanji beat their enemies with high difficulty

Either way it never shows conclusively how Zoro and Sanji stand relative to Luffy nor to each other, because Zoro and Sanji aren't generally pushed to their limits. The only time both were was in Arabasta, where Sanji's opponent was obviously weaker than Zoro's and there's nothing indicating they were very close. What the fights usually show is that all three are close to each other in power but it doesn't reveal the exact differences. 

How they both stand relative to Luffy and each other is shown through portrayal as well as official material, and can be understood through analyzing each of their characters and their roles and actions in the story. Absolutely none - I repeat _none_ - of this makes it logical for Zoro to be closer to Sanji than to Luffy. It doesn't fit with his character, with his actions, with his role in the story and in the crew, with the overarching portrayal given throughout the series and it flat out goes against the word of official materials on the subject.



> Yeah as a Zoro-fan, i'm toutes super biased for Sanji



You're either that or your reading comprehension is shit on this subject; I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, thank me.


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## batman22wins (Mar 5, 2015)

StrawHat said:


> Dude, you are proven wrong by the sheer fact that most of the Zoro-tards are nothing but trolls. And the fact that Zoro fans are every bit as "insecure" as the "insecure" Sanji fans (none of which I've actually encountered) when it comes to Zoro's placement in relation to Luffy.
> 
> At least the Sanji fans are humble and admit that Zoro > Sanji, though. Zoro-tards actually think that he's as strong as Luffy which proves how mentally ill they are.
> 
> Gonna just rectify your bullshit accusations of Sanji fans starting the conflicts now by telling you the truth: Zoro-tards write bullshit, then Sanji fans rebut with nothing but solid evidence and hardly ever whine about it the way you've implied.



You keep saying Zorotards are doing this. We don't write the manga or databooks bro.


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## Firo (Mar 5, 2015)

You would think Luffy > Zoro > Sanji would be as obvious as it is. Guess not.


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## batman22wins (Mar 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> All the stuff I cited was from the official material
> 
> 
> I said Zoro is at times close to Luffy
> ...


Explain TB if Sanji is so close to Zoro


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## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Mar 5, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Those are not M3 group moments and i don't see anything there that makes Zoro as strong as Luffy._


_

It won't make him as strong as Luffy. It puts him on the same level as Luffy.





			Is it because Zoro defeated an executive ? Add some of the Colosseum fighters. Is it because Zoro defeated a Seat ? Add Kyros as well. Is it because Zoro's attack broke his opponents hardening. Add Bellamy and Sai to the party. I linked the instances where the group was showcased post time skip, there is a constant separation between Luffy and the other two.
		
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__
Zoro's feats are on the same level as Luffy, Pica is on a whole new level when you compare him with Diamante. If it isn't for Zoro he'd have killed all of colosseum as well as Kyrus on his own. With the exception of Law,Luffy,Fujitora, Sabo and Joker.There isn't anyone besides Zoro that could beat Pica at Dressorasa 

To be honest from what we have seen from them, Luffy struggles more than Zoro did against Pica._


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## Kaiser (Mar 5, 2015)

^It's just Sanji fans who are being greedy, nothing more. Which is pretty funny considering i like Sanji myself, well liked at least, before he became a comedic relief character


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Picking some, ignoring what didn't suit you. Intellectual honesty right there, right?


And those would be....



> Oh but only at times.


Yes only at times is Zoro approximately equal to Luffy. Other times Luffy as the captain, proves stronger. 



> And he's never more than trivially above Sanji..


Straw-Man, never said it was trivial. 



> Because despite having virtually everything combat-related imaginable over Sanji, this never results in more than a trivial advantage over him. Because Sanji is just that naturally awesome or Oda doesn't give a shit or something? Nevermind, of course you don't have an explanation.


I already gave my reasoning; you on the other hand are making substancesless claims, which you have not supported with anything.



> You didn't. Zoro and Sanji fighting two enemies, who are ostensibly of similar strength, is an indirect comparison.


Direct, _"straightforward; frank; candid:"_

Oda consistently having Zoro and Sanji test their strength against similar or dead even obstacles, is a  _straightforward [/I ]comparison Oda is drawing. Anyone should be able to grasp this simple concept.




			A direct comparison would be them fighting each other. .
		
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I agree that is another direct comparison. However this is not nearly as compelling of an argument as the enemies Oda puts Sanji and Zoro up against in major-arcs. Why? Because It does not demonstrated anything outside of their standings during Whiskey Peak. While on the other hand we have a consistent pattern that spans many arcs.

Beyond that it doesn't even prove your point, bruv, because all it demonstrates is Zoro was close to Luffy in Whiskey Peak. It does not demonstrated that Sanji was not also close to Luffy at Whiskey Peak.




			It will likely come as no surprise that the less indirect stuff favors Luffy and Zoro: especially Thriller Bark where Sanji was KO'd (hit his limit) and Zoro went on to endure the pain that KO'd Luffy on top of his own (his limit is showcased as significantly higher).
		
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Sanji also wanted to take on the damage. Than Zoro cheap-shotted him and took the damage himself. That proves literally nothing about their standings in strength. So your logic here is so indirect, that your seeing things that don't even pertain to strength 




			Or maybe it fucking matters but other things weigh it up for Luffy. Such as being the fucking captain of the crew thus bearing the highest responsibility of having strength, and fighting the strongest enemies. B
		
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That's wonderful, but none of that should logically makes Luffy >= Zoro. What your really saying is that due to plot Luffy >= Zoro, despite Zoro being shown training more. On the other hand there are no plot reasons why Zoro needs to be > Sanji. He does not get tasked with defeating the main arc antagonists the way Luffy does. Instead he fights the main arc antagonists top subordinates, but we have yet to see a instance where Zoro needs to all that much stronger than Sanji to accomplish this. Rather on the contrary Sanji has always been match up against a similar if not same caliber subordinate. 

Zoro's dream may to be WSS, but he doesn't need to be that much stronger than Sanji to accomplish this, as Sanji is not like the 4th strongest swordsman in the world, which Zoro needs to be stronger than by a fair margin to beat Mihawk (or whoever the WSS is at that time). 




			So he fights stronger enemies. You just said so yourself.
		
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He fights enemies that are slightly stronger, like the 20 Doriki difference between Jabra and Kaku. And I said I consider Zoro to have the edge over Sanji, just they are still close to each other.




			Nice to leave out Ohm who he fought and beat in an arc where Sanji fought no-one 1v1. Nice to also leave out Ryuuma who was far stronger than Absalom.
		
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Sanji was way stronger than Absalom and Zoro had a decent fight w/ Ryuuma. Sanji fights no one, Zoro fights no on. These instance don't give us any real means of comparison. 




			I guess you don't have any comprehension of how evidence works? See above.
		
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Evidence, "something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign"

Zoro fighting more enemies is not a sign of greater strength, as there is no comparison to be drawn there. It tells us nothing, about how Zoro compares to Sanji, anymore than the whole bunch of nothing, that Usopp having more battles than half the SH's tells us about his strength in comparison to Robin's, Chopper's, Nami's, etc...




			No. Zoro got a power-up in Arabasta with cutting steel. He then got another in Skypiea when he learned to throw flying slashes.
		
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Try again, Sanji displayed new techniques throughout that various arcs as well.




			He got one in Thriller Bark when he aquired a new sword. Sanji didn't get a power-up in any of these cases.
		
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He had lost his other sword, so gaining a new one was just getting back what he lost. Now you could say the new sword is better than the old one, but how much did this really alter Zoro's overall combat abilities. Seems like the general island increase in strength to me.




			Again, you don't seem to know how evidence works. See above, etc.
		
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Evidence, "something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign"

Zoro having a strength oriented dream, tells us nothing, about how Zoro compares to Sanji, anymore than the whole bunch of nothing, that Usopp having more strength oriented dream than half the SH's tells us about his strength in comparison to Robin's, Chopper's, Nami's, etc...




			Do you even realize that fucking official material, coming out at around the time some of those fights happened, states that Luffy and Zoro are at the same level of strength and both are above Sanji?
		
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I realize that there is a Data-book, released back in  March 2002 lolz, that rates Luffy and Zoro as having higher 力 than Sanji, and I also realize that 力 stands for physical might, not overall combat abilities. 

Than there is DB Yellow, which supposedly states Zoro = Luffy, but I've never found any of these translations citing that actual Raw-Text, allowing them to be verified. I also have heard conflicting accounts on how much Oda is actually involved with the DB's in general.

But whatever, if EL-Zoro can magically be equal to EL-Luffy, so can Sanji.




			How they both stand relative to Luffy and each other is shown through portrayal as well as official material, and can be understood through analyzing each of their characters and their roles and actions in the story. Absolutely none - I repeat none - of this makes it logical for Zoro to be closer to Sanji than to Luffy. It doesn't fit with his character, with his actions, with his role in the story and in the crew, with the overarching portrayal given throughout the series and it flat out goes against the word of official materials on the subject.
		
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Agreed, it's about portrayal, and Sanji/Zoro are the ones portrayed as having a rivalry competing with one another and taking on the same quality of enemy as each other consistently throughout the manga. Zoro is portrayed as holding the edge in that rivalry, but never by much. Zoro is also portrayed at times equivalent to Luffy, but never at those times does Oda indicate Sanji isn't still close to Zoro. 

Basically Zoro has never been portrayed to pull as far ahead of Sanji as Luffy at times seems to pull ahead off him.




			You're either that or your reading comprehension is shit on this subject; I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, thank me.
		
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Or your view point is just so wrong, that even a Zoro-fan can't agree with you. Let's not hastily throw that option off the table._


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## Suit (Mar 5, 2015)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> Literally, Zoro's role on the crew is to deal with the threats, obstacles, and opponents that are too much for the remaining Strawhats, while Luffy is occupied. Do you realize how useless Zoro's character becomes if Sanji is slightly weaker and able to handle the tasks of Zoro's character? It's like what the fuck is the point of having Zoro when there is a guy on the crew who can cook, is smarter, and just about equal in strength? What was the point of Luffy seeking out Zoro's strength, first? What was the point of Luffy and Zoro's first conversation? What is the point of Zoro's strength having precedence over the rest of the crew in Luffy's eyes? Some right hand man of the Pirate King, Zoro is.



Zoro is a badass. That's just his character. And so many of his wankers believe that that badassery is grounds to believe that Zoro is of some special importance when it's just his personality gag.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 5, 2015)

Is that why Oda considers Zoro one of the three cores of One Piece?



He's the second most important character in this manga


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## Typhon (Mar 5, 2015)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> - It's obvious, for the sake of the story, Oda disregarded Luffy's normal growth rate during his solo adventure. This same argument can be used to state Luffy left Kidd, Law, Drake, Hawkins, etc. in the dust as they were stationed on SA during Luffy's solo adventure. Going by this logic, the gap between Luffy and Zoro,Sanji, and Supernovas was as big as the gap between W7 Luffy and Arabasta Zoro. Do you honestly believe we were intended to view MF Luffy way stronger than his peers on SA? The Strawhats went into training right after the war. This gave Oda the ability to restore the strength relationship of the M3 without any explanation. You also can't dismiss the fact that Zoro's training, at first glance, seems to be the most beneficial for his style compared to Ivankov and Rayleigh.


Yeah, I'm not gonna dismiss or downplay all that Luffy went through and claim he didn't get the substantial increase he gets on every other island and then some. It's true that the timeskip could have established pre-skip relationships, but again, Luffy's power and potential are above Zoro's. It's more than likely he's still stronger (When he's not dicking around)




> - I acknowledged that Luffy believes in the strength of his entire crew but you can't ignore that there's a precedence when it comes to Zoro, and it isn't because he's firstmate, it's because Luffy believes Zoro's strength is just as capable as his own. This shows when Luffy is told his entire crew(including Sanji) had been captured and Luffy replies "Caught Zoro? You would be cut in pieces". It shows when Luffy walked up to his crew in danger and asks "Eh!? You're in trouble too Zoro?". It shows when Luffy runs past Robin in disbelief that Zoro was defeated. Look at the hype train Zoro receives during East Blue: East Blue Zoro hype-train
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Luffy has never worried over Sanji either iirc. Believing Zoro can handle himself and being just as strong are two different things. I'd say the former is more appropriate or else we wouldn't have Luffy taking the strongest enemy each arc.



> - DJ variants and Gear Stacking isn't a power-up in the same sense as Shusui. They're more of a general stat boost that the Strawhats receive every arc. Zoro also showed new moves/ attack variants in the fight with Oars. Not only did Zoro receive the default arc boost, he received Shusui which increases the power of his attacks and durability of his defense. What the M3 gained from Thriller bark looks like this
> Luffy - Default stat boost
> Zoro - Default stat boost + Shusui
> Sanji - Default stat boost
> ...


Yeah, but those new moves and attack variants had nothing to do with his power up, aka, Asura. Luffy and Sanji's did.


The Pirate Hunter said:


> Literally, Zoro's role on the crew is to deal with the threats, obstacles, and opponents that are too much for the remaining Strawhats, while Luffy is occupied. Do you realize how useless Zoro's character becomes if Sanji is slightly weaker and able to handle the tasks of Zoro's character? It's like what the fuck is the point of having Zoro when there is a guy on the crew who can cook, is smarter, and just about equal in strength? What was the point of Luffy seeking out Zoro's strength, first? What was the point of Luffy and Zoro's first conversation? What is the point of Zoro's strength having precedence over the rest of the crew in Luffy's eyes? Some right hand man of the Pirate King, Zoro is.


I guess we may aswell kick Zoro off the crew now since Sanji is leading the  Thousand Sunny as we speak...

Seriously, I see a lot of Zoro fans downplay what Zoro brings to the crew as a reason for Sanji to be weaker; saying such things as he's just a dumb swordsman and nothing more. Zoro has certain qualities that Sanji doesn't and vice versa that establishes the 1st/2nd mate roles respectively. Zoro is what boils down to as the "stern leader" and Sanji, the "care taker". Both of them are integral parts of the crew outside of strength, granted it's Zoro strength that gives him that great sense of authority. And Sanji is smart and tactical, but lets not act like Zoro is just a dumb brute. He actually thinks and acts accordingly. The second to last chapter speaks enough on this.


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