# Bayonetta vs Sephiroth



## KevinVonDoom (Jul 16, 2015)

Who wins? 

Location: Empty planet.


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## AngryHeretic (Jul 16, 2015)

There was a similar fight here, "Bayonetta vs Cloud", awhile back. Does Bayonetta have the Eye of the World? If so, she beats any version of Sephiroth.


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## KevinVonDoom (Jul 16, 2015)

She has the Eye of the World.


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## Imagine (Jul 16, 2015)

Doesn't Sephy stomp really, really badly? With the Chaos upgrades and stuff


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 16, 2015)

Imagine said:


> Doesn't Sephy stomp really, really badly? With the Chaos upgrades and stuff


Can he punch a God from one end of the solar system to another?


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## Vivi Ornitier (Jul 16, 2015)

Bayonetta is FTL and large planet level, but that's not why she wins. She wins because she has something in spades that Sephiroth is completely devoid of


*Spoiler*: __ 



Quality


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 16, 2015)

When did she get large planet level by herself?


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## Vivi Ornitier (Jul 16, 2015)

In the original game when you punch Jubelius into the sun, I fucked up and sent Jubelius into Jupiter which caused it to explode. Not sure if I could find a video of it but I can confirm that it's more than possible to do

She also destroyed Jubelius' biggest pieces when even the smallest one can make the earth explode almost instantly if you let it hit with its kinetic energy, the same pieces that could endure the collision that busted Jupiter without a scratch


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## Vivi Ornitier (Jul 16, 2015)

Also if you are wondering where FTL comes from, I did a rough calc on Father Balder catching several of Bayonetta's bullets so casually and turning them around that they appeared frozen after he activated lightspeed (turns out that the name was not a hyperbole after all)

These are the same bullets that can outspeed ICBMs


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## Imagine (Jul 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Can he punch a God from one end of the solar system to another?


Theoretically yes 


Vivi Ornitier said:


> Bayonetta is FTL and large planet level, but that's not why she wins. She wins because she has something in spades that Sephiroth is completely devoid of
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


FTL Bayo changes things


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 16, 2015)

Damn i forgot about the planets exploding when Jubileus is punched into them and Bayo can damage her on her own so that makes sense. Well FTL Bayo stomps this then


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## Pocalypse (Jul 16, 2015)

Wouldn't Bayo's time-stop be more than enough to off Sephiroth? Even the safer version?


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## Vivi Ornitier (Jul 16, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Damn i forgot about the planets exploding when Jubileus is punched into them and Bayo can damage her on her own so that makes sense. Well FTL Bayo stomps this then



Well it's still low FTL VS 0.2c so I do not think that the speed difference is too bad


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## KevinVonDoom (Jul 16, 2015)

Vivi Ornitier said:


> Bayonetta is FTL and large planet level, but that's not why she wins. She wins because she has something in spades that Sephiroth is completely devoid of
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Edgy meme my friend


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## AngryHeretic (Jul 16, 2015)

I<3TaylorSwift69 said:


> Doesn't Sephy stomp really, really badly? With the *Chaos upgrades* and stuff



u wot m8

And yeah, _at best_ Sephiroth is Planetary as Safer Sephiroth, if you believe that holding back the Lifestream is a planetary feat. And ignore the gaping plot hole that it would make his master plan utterly pointless. Bayonetta on the other hand is casually moon-level, and her fight against Jubileus puts her at large planet-level at least. 

Not to mention FTL.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 16, 2015)

He held back Holy which is nowhere near as powerful as the lifestream. AC Sephy is just as strong if not stronger than Safer Sephiroth on account of fighting a stronger Cloud and almost winning


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 16, 2015)

I am not familiar with Bayonetta, but I say that Sephiroth impales her with his sword.




 



(I am sorry for not giving a serious response, but I could not miss the opportunity to make that joke.)


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## DarkSlayerZero (Jul 16, 2015)

Anybody got a calc for the  that occurred in Bayo 2?


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## Vivi Ornitier (Jul 16, 2015)

DarkSlayerZero said:


> Anybody got a calc for the  that occurred in Bayo 2?



I will do that as a blog along with the Father Balder feat later when I feel like it


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## Brightsteel (Jul 16, 2015)

Isn't Sephiroth at best multi-continent level?


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## Featherine (Jul 16, 2015)

Soon after I joined I remember translating one of the guidebook entries that put the attack "Supernova" as Solar System busting, even in the original version of the game, the one without all the fluff/extra long cinematics.

Found it:


> スーパーノヴァ　(オリジナル版)
> Supernova (Original Version)
> 
> The sentence is under the 3rd pic:
> ...



No idea if that was accepted or not though, would have to ask Chaos since he seems to the FF expert. I don't see why it would be denied though. The fact Sephiroth still waited for the Meteor to do it's thing means pretty much nothing since he had already summoned it before reaching the Safer form.

I have no idea what Bayonetta can do though, so I won't say anything about the outcome of the match, just felt like bringing this up.

EDIT: felt like translating the last pic description as well since it brings more weight to the argument:
- 爆風が太陽系全体を包みこみ、超新星の光が銀河系のかなたまで明るく照らす
- Bakufuu ga taiyoukei zentai no kurumikomi, choushinsei no hikari ga gingakei no kanata made akaruku terasu
- The blast swallows the entire Solar System, the bright light of the Supernova can be spotted beyond the Galactic System/Milky Way Galaxy (both are written the same way).


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 16, 2015)

Featherine said:


> No idea if that was accepted or not though, would have to ask Chaos since he seems to the FF expert. I don't see why it would be denied though.



Will depend on what the translation for  yields 

Heard something about it flipping the world


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## Qinglong (Jul 16, 2015)

I just went through the effort of looking up Chaos posts and he ninjas me from nowhere 


Older posts about it pre the ninja:


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## Featherine (Jul 17, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Will depend on what the translation for  yields
> 
> Heard something about it flipping the world



Alright.

I see where that comes from, it depends how you want to interpret 天地崩壊 (This is Typhoon's designation/title it means "Collapsing World" or something to that effect). The main problem being 天地 / tenchi here.


For instance, the 5th pic:
- 放たれた閃光とともに、一瞬のうちに天地が逆転し...
- hanatareta senkou to tomo ni, isshun no uchi no Tenchi ga gyatuktenshi...
- With a flash of light, the World is reversed in an instant...

So, tenchi can mean World indeed, as well as mean Heaven & Earth, Realm... It's a pretty vague term all things considered.

I'm afraid to say this because I'm sure Megatron will jump on it, but it can also mean Universe.

In fact, my dictionary says:
Heaven and Earth, Universe.
Sample sentence - 新天地を求めてアメリカへ旅立つ
Searching for a new *World* he left for America.

So, dunno how you want to take this.


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## Punchsplosion (Jul 17, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Will depend on what the translation for  yields
> 
> Heard something about it flipping the world



WOW.  I really need to go back and rewatch the summons from that game.   Completely forgot about that little pink bitch.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2015)

Featherine said:


> Alright.
> 
> I see where that comes from, it depends how you want to interpret 天地崩壊 (This is Typhoon's designation/title it means "Collapsing World" or something to that effect). The main problem being 天地 / tenchi here.
> 
> ...



Would probably be best to just stick with what's shown, namely the planet seemingly inverting

Universe isn't particularly supported, especially considering Supernova *shrugs*

That being said, suppose the existence of a planet level summon, one that's hardly even the strongest at that, sort of invalidates the plot even further regarding the power of Meteor

Or hell, even the fact that Sephiroth may have known Supernova before his "death" in Nibelheim

Might as well just chalk it up to the Bishy Jackass being batshit insane


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## Featherine (Jul 17, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Would probably be best to just stick with what's shown, namely the planet seemingly inverting


Yeah I agree, was just afraid that Megatron comes out of nowhere and say "See this is proof of my Multiversal Sephiroth !" and then proceed to link it everywhere he can, I don't want to be used a mean to propagate lies or some shit 

But correct me if I'm wrong, Sephiroth summoned Meteor *before* reaching his Safer form right ? In that case it could explain why he didn't bother doing anything else despite having the power to do so since the Meteor was already halfway there.

That wouldn't contradict his Supernova, or even the summons, at least I think so.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2015)

Featherine said:


> Yeah I agree, was just afraid that Megatron comes out of nowhere and say "See this is proof of my Multiversal Sephiroth !" and then proceed to link it everywhere he can, I don't want to be used a mean to propagate lies or some shit
> 
> But correct me if I'm wrong, Sephiroth summoned Meteor *before* reaching his Safer form right ? In that case it could explain why he didn't bother doing anything else despite having the power to do so since the Meteor was already halfway there.
> 
> That wouldn't contradict his Supernova, or even the summons, at least I think so.



He was still regenerating, encased in a large shard of materia/solid mako, with half his body missing

So I guess you can argue he summoned it before becoming Safer

Still baffling how he's hinted to have Supernova way back in CC, but its less bullshit sounding with a lower high tier summon being this strong


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## Punchsplosion (Jul 17, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> He was still regenerating, encased in a large shard of materia/solid mako, with half his body missing
> 
> So I guess you can argue he summoned it before becoming Safer
> 
> Still baffling how he's hinted to have Supernova way back in CC, but its less bullshit sounding with a lower high tier summon being this strong



I'm still confused as to the tier list in this verse.

Limit Break Cloud > Sephiroth > Chaos Vincent > Turks > Jade Weapon > Zirconiade = Omega > Rest of the FF Crew > High End Summons/Weapons?

Is that right?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2015)

Punchsplosion said:


> I'm still confused as to the tier list in this verse.
> 
> Limit Break Cloud > Sephiroth > Chaos Vincent > Turks > Jade Weapon > Zirconiade = Omega > Rest of the FF Crew > High End Summons/Weapons?
> 
> Is that right?



Limit Break Sephiroth > Limit Break Cloud > Sephiroth > Cloud/Chaos Vincent/Omega Weapon > Full Power Zirconaide >= Weapons >  FFVII Crew/Limit Break Turks > Botched Zirconaide > Turks

I'm kind of tired, but that's all I've really given thought to the Puzzle about

Recall, killing the Botched Zirconaide = 1 WEAPON given that's all the planet released as opposed to what Meteor/Sephiroth/Jenova represented regarding release of them all.

The FFVII Crew, while ultimately weaker than a single WEAPON, did drive off one with only 3 of their numbers fighting it (Ultimate WEAPON didn't even have Cloud to fight it)... where as the Turks appear to have required all their numbers to down Jade to my limited knowledge.

Zack as a Second Class, though more than qualified to be a high end First Class, pretty much sits equal with the third Strongest Summon in the franchise behind Knights of the Round and Zirconaide at full power.

Eh... not in the mood to think too much atm, going to bed now


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## Punchsplosion (Jul 17, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Limit Break Sephiroth > Limit Break Cloud > Sephiroth > Cloud/Chaos Vincent/Omega Weapon > Full Power Zirconaide >= Weapons >  FFVII Crew/Limit Break Turks > Botched Zirconaide > Turks
> 
> I'm kind of tired, but that's all I've really given thought to the Puzzle about
> 
> ...



Okay.....sounds good to me.  Pretty cut-and-dry.


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## AngryHeretic (Jul 17, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> *Limit Break Sephiroth* > Limit Break Cloud > Sephiroth > Cloud/Chaos Vincent/Omega Weapon >etc



What is limit break Sephiroth? And I assume 'Sephiroth' here is Safer Sephiroth, so where does Nibelheim Sephiroth go? I don't recall any feats that would put him above EOG Avalanche. His best feat is stomping two high-end First Class SOLDIERs as far as I remember. And anyone in AVALANCHE could probably do that by the time they're ready to fight Safer.

And I think it's commonly accepted by now that the ludicrous solar-system-level animation for Supernova is some sort of illusory attack, because otherwise we get a fucking massive plot hole. What with Sephiroth putting in as much effort as he did just for what amounts to a _planetary_ power-up at best. It also fixes the problem with Nibelheim Sephiroth knowing Supernova; since it isn't this absurdly powerful attack the animation would imply, him knowing it doesn't make much difference one way or the other.

I'd chalk Typhon up to gravity manipulation, and the actual camera flipping over as a POV technique. And "the world is reversed in an instant" referring to the perspective. It doesn't seem like something worth reading too much into tbh.

Not sure what the difference between high-end and average First Class SOLDIERs would be, but by disc 3 they were relegated to common mooks, significantly weaker than anyone in AVALANCHE. So presumably Zack is somewhere around Botched Zirconaide.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2015)

AngryHeretic said:


> What is limit break Sephiroth? And where does Nibelheim Sephiroth go? I don't recall any feats that would put him above EOG Avalanche.



Will contemplate later

Limit Break Sephiroth is him using a Limit, which he wasn't in the final duel of the Original Game.

It's safe to assume, while Cloud certainly was above the Sephiroth he canned there, Sephiroth was hardly using a limit break



> And I think it's commonly accepted by now that the ludicrous solar-system-level animation for Supernova is some sort of illusory attack



It isn't

No official source endorses the idea or even hints at it

So... kindly try not to endorse fanon that has no actual grounds?


> because otherwise we get a fucking massive plot hole.



The plot hole doesn't exist

He's batshit insane and already neared god hood before Meteor even hit the planet

That's what Safer Sephiroth is, his "God" Form

The premise of Meteor is invalidated just by the fact you fight a Safer Sephiroth at all



> I'd chalk Typhon up to gravity manipulation, and the actual camera flipping over as a POV technique. And "the world is reversed in an instant" referring to the perspective. It doesn't seem like something worth reading too much into tbh.



And you'd be wrong

Less is more, don't make baseless assumptions unsupported by extra materials or the source.

You're reading more into the wording than context implies.

EDIT -  , if it were just a perspective flip, Typhon wouldn't be upside down after the flip like he is.  His stomach starts the attack facing the ground and it ends up facing the sky.

So... stupid bullshit either way.



> Not sure what the difference between high-end and average First Class SOLDIERs would be, but by disc 3 they were relegated to common mooks, significantly weaker than anyone in AVALANCHE. So presumably Zack is somewhere around Botched Zirconaide.



Probably, yeah


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## Vivi Ornitier (Jul 17, 2015)

Who gives a fuck if he did it via gravity manipulation? That still means that his gravity manipuation and thus overall firepower is in that level, the same Typhoon that fails to compare to Sephy 

That said Typhoon could get a solar system level yield and I would still say that Baeonetta wins this on account of her not being Sephiroth (that and the cold hard fact that Bayonetta 2 was the greatest game to come out in the past few years)


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## AngryHeretic (Jul 17, 2015)

> It isn't
> 
> No official source endorses the idea or even hints at it
> 
> ...



No official source, but the evidence heavily leans toward it being an illusory attack. Sephiroth has already shown himself capable of illusory shit before, and in particular projecting illusions through solid space (what he did at the Forgotten Temple or whatever it's called). Not a stretch to assume he could repeat it, especially at his peak. On the other hand, taking supernova to be exactly what the animation suggests, would require giving everyone in AVALANCHE star-level durability (an outlier that would make no sense) and imply Sephiroth can reform the sun at will. 

That or reach into different universes on multiple occasions and repeatedly summon a meteor that could bust a star. It would be a huge outlier, totally inconsistent with what the power from the life stream should grant him. And him being a 'god' doesn't mean much, it seems to me like more of a symbol of his self-image and confidence of his victory than anything, since fictional 'gods' as a category are all over the place in power.

Not saying it's official, but again, it's a much more reasonable conclusion imo. I have some more but I need to go pass out.


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## Adamant soul (Jul 17, 2015)

Witch-time pretty much gives Sephiroth the proverbial middle finger, Bayo should be able to deal some damage at least (how durable is Sephiroth again?). So Sephiroth should go down eventually.

Balder proceeds to solo with sheer quality.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2015)

AngryHeretic said:


> *No official source*, but the evidence heavily leans toward it being an illusory attack.



See the bolded?

Anything after it is irrelevant and nothing I need to give consideration

If the ultimania and game says/hints nothing about it?

Not worth contemplating

EDIT - also, surface area in relation to a fucking explosion

Learn what that is

Because you hardly need solar system level durability to tank jackshit

And way to strawman the 'god' shit.  His ultimate goal was to become a god by using meteor

He did so without it... making meteor pointless



> Not saying it's official, but again, it's a much more reasonable conclusion imo. I have some more but I need to go pass out.



Its a wonderful thing that opinions hold no water in a debate then


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## shade0180 (Jul 17, 2015)

> repeatedly summon a meteor that could bust a star. It would be a huge outlier,


I think he is still confuse between the english supernova and the original supernova..


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## Qinglong (Jul 17, 2015)

Did no one look at the links I posted because I'm pretty sure I posted the one where the energy needed to "Tank" Supernova was like, petatons, which is a horrendously inefficient use of energy


EDIT: Peta to exatons apparently


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> I think he is still confuse between the english supernova and the original supernova..



Doesn't really matter either way

Typhon's feat's going to be about 1/4th the power of what I got for Hyrule Warrior's Link

So the idea it's outlierish is kind of nonsensical



Qinglong said:


> Did no one look at the links I posted because I'm pretty sure I posted the one where the energy needed to "Tank" Supernova was like, petatons, which is a horrendously inefficient use of energy
> 
> 
> EDIT: Peta to exatons apparently



Expecting someone to read?

Silly Qing

That's about as likely as me having read his full post after his first 3 words initially


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## Regicide (Jul 17, 2015)

Wait

Are we actually vindicating Supernova


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Wait
> 
> Are we actually vindicating Supernova



Typhon sort of kills any remaining argument against it

Safer Sephiroth basically being his God Form already killed the meteor aspect

That said, not exactly like Sephiroth uses the energy in a practical manner


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 17, 2015)

it doesn't change anything, tbh

the party gets a paltry fraction of the energy directed at them, aside from the hilarious impracticality chaos mentioned


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2015)

Its not even like he can redirect the energy elsewhere

The limit is basically linked to that botched gravitational attraction equation so that the comet will always hit the Sun IIRC

Sure, if the comet plows into other shit before hitting the star, that would be a more effective means of using the limit, but hell if you're going to see an optimal scenario where it hits the field of combat on target.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 17, 2015)

pretty much

the only game where Seph benefits from supernova is Dissidia, where he actually blows up the sun


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## Regicide (Jul 17, 2015)

Well, I'll be damned

Didn't think I'd ever see the day


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## Qinglong (Jul 17, 2015)

This is why you throw your opponents into your attack target first, then blow it up


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## Megatron (Jul 17, 2015)

Super Nova is a willpower feat. Its actual "efficiency" doesn't matter. The fact Sephiroth crates a universe with his sheer will, the same will that is the source of his strength and durability.


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## Adamant soul (Jul 18, 2015)

Megatron said:


> Super Nova is a willpower feat. Its actual "efficiency" doesn't matter. The fact Sephiroth crates a universe with his sheer will, the same will that is the source of his strength and durability.



Even if I was willing to believe Sephiroth created a universe (which there's no evidence of) he's been harmed repeatedly by far less powerful attacks. His durability is well below his willpower and dc and, unfortunately for him, that's why Bayonetta wins this fight pretty easy.


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## ShadowReaper (Jul 18, 2015)

Bayonetta destroys him.


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## SSBMonado (Jul 18, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> He held back Holy which is nowhere near as powerful as the lifestream. AC Sephy is just as strong if not stronger than Safer Sephiroth on account of fighting a stronger Cloud and almost winning


Yeah, if by "held back" you mean "stopped Aerith from casting it"
It's dead obvious that in both the cases of the black and the white materia, 99% of the power comes from the materia, so stopping Aerith is akin to just casting mute on her.

Granted it has been a while since I played the game, but Sephiroth held back the life stream?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 18, 2015)

SSBMonado said:


> Yeah, if by "held back" you mean "stopped Aerith from casting it"



...

No

By held back, it means he held back the fucking attack by pure willpower alone

One of the driving reasons behind the final boss fight was to kill Sephiroth and let the spell run its course because it wasn't moving anywhere as long as Sephiroth lived.



> Granted it has been a while since I played the game



Ah

This would explain why you're spouting stupid shit


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## Qinglong (Jul 18, 2015)

SSBMonado said:


> Yeah, if by "held back" you mean "stopped Aerith from casting it"
> It's dead obvious that in both the cases of the black and the white materia, 99% of the power comes from the materia, so stopping Aerith is akin to just casting mute on her.
> 
> Granted it has been a while since I played the game, but Sephiroth held back the life stream?






Wrong, Sephiroth was holding back Holy.


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## Byrd (Jul 18, 2015)

One thing to mention the final boss in Bayonetta should have the durability of Large Planet level considering the fact that if it hits a planet... it pops right back up and goes back to bayonetta...

and Bayonetta was beating the shit out of her


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## creative (Jul 18, 2015)

I hardly think ceraza even needs the eyes of the world for this


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## Doriva (Jul 18, 2015)

People keep saying that Sephirot doesnt need meteor to put his plan im motion since he could make all the damage he needed by himself but wasnt implied that via lifestream FFVII planet would actually have durability above a normal planet or at least  somehow be able to minimize damage that would destroy even bigger planets?

Since we know that Jenova hit the planet with a meteor already and it doesnt endure a large extinction, it can create powerfull life by itself (weapons), is the source of all materias and had actually manage to hold Meteor by itself for some time?

Also about Sephirot. I thought that people around here believed that both summons and Supernova attacks happens in some kind of alternate dimension making moot the point about  either of them destroying the planet since they would lack the area to "kill" the planet with a few strikes.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Sooooo the Meteor would just be way more eficient than Supernova spam...


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## Megatron (Jul 19, 2015)

Adamant soul said:


> Even if I was willing to believe Sephiroth created a universe (which there's no evidence of)


There's very strong circumstantial evidence. In The Compilation there's no mention of any preexisting atl/parallel dimensions/universes - just the opposite: Bahamut Sin crystallizes from the LS, when summoned by Kadaj - and it's extremely unlikely that he destroy and recreates the actual Solar System of FF7.



Adamant soul said:


> he's been harmed repeatedly by far less powerful attacks.


Less flashy =/= weaker. The only one shown to be able to actually hurt him is Cloud.


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