# Fiamma Of The Right vs The Former Crimson King



## ~Greed~ (Aug 23, 2013)

Done before ages ago. But that thread went in a bad direction. So fuck it, I'm making it again. Especially since we have accurate translations for toaru by Js06 (who also translates Hayate no Gotoku and Needless and a ton of other manga/novels), and because feats have been recalced so we have a better understanding of characters powers.

_*Scenario 1:*_ La Persona Superiore a Dio Fiamma vs Full Powered FCK.

_*Scenario 2:*_ Fiamma with Index's controller vs Full Powered FCK.


How does this go?


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## Shiorin (Aug 23, 2013)

Fiamma has the advantage in stats, but will mindfuck work?


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 23, 2013)

Probably depends on the level of the mindfuck. I'd say that he should have resistance to mindfuck on the level of Loki or Misaki just by powerscaling alone, both of whom should have better mindfuck than the FCK. Loki to a lesser extent though.

And iirc, the reason he could use index's magic without the grimiores mindfucking him was partially because of the holy right, But I'm not 100% positive about that and will double check tomorrow. At the very least he did take some of their knowledge and use it for himself, and weve seem what taking a grimiores knowledge can do when Yamisuka Ouma tried to take a fraction of a grimiores knowledge from index with a mindreading spell.


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## Boomy (Aug 23, 2013)

Why need powerscaling? He took Pope's spell like nothing.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 23, 2013)

I'd have to check and see if that was only a soulfuck.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 23, 2013)

what are his reactions - i.e. how fast can he attack ?


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## Boomy (Aug 23, 2013)

Well, it can be interpretted in many ways:



> An explosion resounded through the structure.
> 
> A restraining spell created a thirteen-sided object around Fiamma, not only restraining Fiamma's actions physically but also separating his flesh from his soul. He was trapped in a "woundless bind"; nothing more than a hollow existence.
> 
> ...



Spiritual attack. But the bolded line says he has to experience Christ's feelings - this type of stuff usually attacks mind.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 23, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> what are his reactions - i.e. how fast can he attack ?



This should have most of what you need to know.

Fiamma's reactions are human. But his holy right attack and defend at incredibly close to the speed of light, outside of Fiamma's will.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 23, 2013)

Mahesvara said:


> Well, it can be interpretted in many ways:
> 
> 
> 
> Spiritual attack. But the bolded line says he has to experience Christ's feelings - this type of stuff usually attacks mind.



Fair enough.

Though even without that, he should have been repeatedly mindraped by index's grimiores due to his telepathic link with her. But he wasn't, so it's logical to assume his holy right defends against those kind of attacks.

Basically, I don't see the FCK's level of mindrape working.


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## Xam (Aug 23, 2013)

Is the wiki profile outdated? I'm only seeing FCK at City Level at full power even with the Red Cross Knights absorbed which is supposed to be a power up for him right?

LPSAD Fiamma is a planet pulverizer.

*Spoiler*: __ 



The destruction he could carry out was different from the destruction that could be created by the 103,000 grimoires.
He held the power to save the world.
He held the power at the core of a legend.
He was known as The One Above God.
If it was necessary, he could easily smash the no longer needed adaptor with an overwhelming explosion of light that could turn an entire planet to dust.
It would have been odd if he could not.




Don't see how Full Power FCK has much chance here unless the Wiki profile is super outdated..I really should get to reading SDK 

As for with Index's controllers.

and just seeing and using the spells should constitute a high level of Mindf*ck resistance for Fiamma, because iirc, The Pope, Reese guy got a headache just from entering the vault with the books, while Fiamma picked and chose spells to use and spammed them in his fight with Touma.

Same with any character with Grimoires, even Ollerus has to purify himself somehow from having that knowledge, to Fiamma it was a non-issue.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 23, 2013)

The FCK is a hax character, not a character who uses pure strength.


edit - There's a blog somewhere with his abilities listed.


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## Xam (Aug 23, 2013)

Are you referring to his Creation and Disintegration of Matter technique?
Even with hax, he's only MHS+, Fiammas casual swings of his arm are Relativistic, shouldn't the speed difference seal the deal?


I looked for a link to the blog, couldn't find and kind of have to head to school now.
So I'll leave this to you Othy.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 23, 2013)

I'm just going to leave a few links here.


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## Shiorin (Aug 23, 2013)

He's a swiss army knife of hax, but then again, so are Index's grimiores.


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## ikoke (Aug 23, 2013)

Can Fiamma resist petrification/shadow BFR or Candle Room tinkering?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 23, 2013)

Othinus said:


> This should have most of what you need to know.
> 
> Fiamma's reactions are human. But his holy right attack and defend at incredibly close to the speed of light, outside of Fiamma's will.


so once the match starts it will attack at ~LS right away regardless of Fiammas human reactions ?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 23, 2013)

kind of like a stand I guess.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 23, 2013)

ikoke said:


> Can Fiamma resist petrification/shadow BFR or Candle Room tinkering?



someone can correct me, but I don't remember petrification resistance feats. I'm not sure how shadow bfr works, but candle room is basically soulfuck, so that won't work.



Fluttershy said:


> so once the match starts it will attack at ~LS right away regardless of Fiammas human reactions ?



Well, to give an example on how it works, read this quote:



			
				Volume 22 - Part 2 said:
			
		

> Something twinkled in the heavens spread out above the broken ceiling.
> 
> It was a white light.
> 
> ...


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 23, 2013)

Also, here's a calc for the laser that was fired at him:



It's output is 287 megatons.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 23, 2013)

that doesn't actually answer my question  


> so once the match starts it will attack at ~LS right away regardless of Fiammas human reactions ?




or maybe I just don't know enough about ToAru to understand it


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 23, 2013)

If Fiamma is bloodlusted, possibly. Outside of that, probably not. He/The Holy Right usually waits for his/their opponent to attack first, matches or exceeds their power, then stomps them into the ground. 

In the case of the laser in the quote above, he let it hit him, laughed at it, then a few seconds later shattered it into pieces.




			
				Fiamma explaining how it works said:
			
		

> My right arm responds to the need, matches to the level of trials and tribulations, and uses the most suitable output. Whether it is an optical weapon or whatever else, nothing can stand up to me.”


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## Regicide (Aug 23, 2013)

What is this bullshit about Fiamma getting mindfuck resistance due to the grimoires?

He doesn't need to read them, the mental link is just to let him command Index and then output the spells from his own body. It's like Tecpatl's Calendar Stone from Volume 19.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 23, 2013)

Not really the same as the calender stone IMO, since iirc, that was specifically designed to keep the grimiore from mindraping whatshisface. I'm pretty sure Fiamma had a telepathic link with Index at that point. Hell, I'm pretty sure he stated that he used knowledge from the grimiores to stabilize the holy right.


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## Regicide (Aug 23, 2013)

As far as I can recall, Fiamma never modified the controller from its original function. Common sense would dictate that if reading the grimoires was necessary to control Index, the item would be useless to the Anglican Church.

Putting that aside though, the Holy Right doesn't automatically destroy enemies as soon as the fight begins. Fiamma has to command it to attack first, at which point it'll attempt to destroy whatever his target regardless of shit like whether Fiamma even knows where it is. The defensive fuction operates independently of him though.


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## TehChron (Aug 23, 2013)

Regicide said:


> As far as I can recall, Fiamma never modified the controller from its original function. Common sense would dictate that if reading the grimoires was necessary to control Index, the item would be useless to the Anglican Church.
> 
> Putting that aside though, the Holy Right doesn't automatically destroy enemies as soon as the fight begins. Fiamma has to command it to attack first, at which point it'll attempt to destroy whatever his target regardless of shit like whether Fiamma even knows where it is. The defensive fuction operates independently of him though.



If the controller provided immunity, then Fiamma wouldnt have begun to suffer headaches from using it after Touma reclaimed Imagine Breaker

Also, no need to overthink when speculating the nature of the controller. It exists to keep Johns Pen Mode on a leash, first and foremost.


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## Regicide (Aug 23, 2013)

Volume 22 said:
			
		

> Fiamma held out Index’s remote control spiritual item. He was trying to use the knowledge of the 130,000 grimoires to intercept Kamijou. His defenses must have been weakened by the loss of his special power because a terrible headache stabbed into him, but he ignored it and continued searching through the knowledge. The light in his eyes said that he would kill the enemy before his eyes no matter what.


Huh, you're right.

Okay, I'll concede that point.


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## Xam (Aug 23, 2013)

So what?
Is the consensus that Fiamma wins?

I didn't see much change in the several hours I was gone, lel.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 23, 2013)

TehChron said:


> If the controller provided immunity, then Fiamma wouldnt have begun to suffer headaches from using it after Touma reclaimed Imagine Breaker
> 
> Also, no need to overthink when speculating the nature of the controller. It exists to keep Johns Pen Mode on a leash, first and foremost.



Pretty much this. Funny that even while weakened he still gets just a headache from reading a grimiore though. Considering Ouma almost died trying to take some knowledge from one.


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## Xam (Aug 23, 2013)

Ouma is bad example though, the guy was at most an Above Average mage, even above average only because he got into AC without any outside assistance iirc.

The Pope would be a better example, he got a headache just from entering the holding room for a portion of the 103K Index holds.


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## Regicide (Aug 23, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Is the consensus that Fiamma wins?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall the FCK having petrification at his disposal.

Could potentially take it with that, since Fiamma hasn't demonstrated any resistance to that kind of hax.


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## Xam (Aug 23, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall the FCK having petrification at his disposal.
> 
> Could potentially take it with that, since Fiamma hasn't demonstrated any resistance to that kind of hax.



What kind of Petrification we talking about? If it just petrifies Fiamma, then his HR might still one shot FCK regardless.

It has been shown to be independent as a defense.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 23, 2013)

His only petrification is with the medusa eye, and iirc, characters with high will power or something can survive it.


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## Qinglong (Aug 23, 2013)

True and Fake Red Eyes resist petrification

I don't recall say Benitora resisting it


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## Regicide (Aug 23, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> What kind of Petrification we talking about? If it just petrifies Fiamma, then his HR might still one shot FCK regardless.
> 
> It has been shown to be independent as a defense.


Would that still be considered a win? Fiamma would still be a statue, after all. 

And counterattacks from the Holy Right don't seem to be automatic, just defending.


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## Xam (Aug 23, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Would that still be considered a win? Fiamma would still be a statue, after all.
> 
> And counterattacks from the Holy Right don't seem to be automatic, just defending.



Fiamma would be alive if as a statue, FCK wouldn't be. 

Sides, can FCK even get the petrification off before he gets a relativistic chicken claw to the face?


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## Regicide (Aug 23, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Sides, can FCK even get the petrification off before he gets a relativistic chicken claw to the face?


Sure.

Unlike the other characters on his tier and below, Fiamma doesn't rely on speed. Which is kind of an issue since he has to command the Holy Right to attack.


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## Xam (Aug 23, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Sure.
> 
> Unlike the other characters on his tier and below, Fiamma doesn't rely on speed. Which is kind of an issue since he has to command the Holy Right to attack.



So then the question comes down to how FCK's petrification works.


Someone who's read SDK, explain how it works, Othinus made it sound like it working was 50/50


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## Qinglong (Aug 23, 2013)

Depends who was using it, someone like Hishigi's turns you to stone as soon as you look at it, Akari's turns you to stone then to ash


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## Regicide (Aug 23, 2013)

Just to clarify, was there ever a consensus on whether FCK had the Medusa Eyes?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 23, 2013)

I wouldn't say he has them, unless he has like prep to use his resources and implant them into himself


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## Regicide (Aug 23, 2013)

In that case, perhaps he could try BFR.


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## TehChron (Aug 23, 2013)

A couple of things worth keeping in mind:

Firstly, the Holy Right activates offensively simply by Fiamma swinging his right arm. After that, the Holy Right automatically performs the correct offensive action for the situation. Fiamma did not know _where_ Academy City's satellite was located, he simply became aware of it's existence, and it was then destroyed when he swung his arm. As an example.

Secondly, LPSD Fiamma has access to the functions of Imagine Breaker, which, given its inherent properties of negating supernatural abilities, would likely give Fiamma some degree of protection against transmutation and other such exotic tactics.

Therefore, the question isnt about what haxx the FCK has available, it's whether or not he can lop off Fiamma's right arm before he gets a chance to swing it and end the fight then and there.


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## Regicide (Aug 23, 2013)

Don't really think that the Holy Right can be sliced off with the FCK's level of DC.

Fiamma possessing Imagine Breaker is a fair point though.


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## TehChron (Aug 23, 2013)

No, no, Crowley showed that its entirely possible to lop off Fiamma's right arm.

His Staff of Striking exists in a separate dimension, right? So presumably, attacks which circumvent barriers or the like should be able to do the deed if the chance presents itself.

Then again, we don't exactly know how Crowley's magic works in ToAru, so it could be based around a different system entirely. Either way, the Holy Right isnt an infallible defense.


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## Regicide (Aug 23, 2013)

TehChron said:


> No, no, Crowley showed that its entirely possible to lop off Fiamma's right arm.
> 
> His Staff of Striking exists in a separate dimension, right? So presumably, attacks which circumvent barriers or the like should be able to do the deed if the chance presents itself.
> 
> Then again, we don't exactly know how Crowley's magic works in ToAru, so it could be based around a different system entirely. Either way, the Holy Right isnt an infallible defense.


Of course it's not infallible, but the Holy Right would presumably defend Fiamma against such an attack, as it does with everything else.

Crowley is a high/top tier in the verse, so he's not exactly a great example.


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## TehChron (Aug 23, 2013)

The Holy Right doesn't have feats of defending against exotic attacks. We're pretty much dancing around that possibility, which is why the FCK Medusa Eye discussion became based on whether or not he had them as standard equipment, rather then whether or not Fiamma could defend against it.

Offensively, the Holy Right can only act in accordance with Fiamma's own reaction time. So if he gets blitzed with an attack that ignores durability or most defenses, then chances are his arm can get cut off and then the fight is over.

From the speed arguments in other threads, and references to SDK having "durability ignoring" attacks, it sounds like it's not implausible that this approach can work.


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## Regicide (Aug 23, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Offensively, the Holy Right can only act in accordance with Fiamma's own reaction time. So if he gets blitzed with an attack that ignores durability or most defenses, then chances are his arm can get cut off and then the fight is over.
> 
> From the speed arguments in other threads, and references to SDK having "durability ignoring" attacks, it sounds like it's not implausible that this approach can work.


Problem being that, if FCK possessed an attack which could pierce the Holy Right's defenses, he wouldn't need to slice off Fiamma's right arm to begin with and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Given the mindfuck and soulfuck resistances it seems to grant Fiamma, the only things I can really think of here that would be viable tactics are BFR and petrification. FCK may or may not possess the latter, and shadow BFR is probably shut down by IB.


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## Xam (Aug 24, 2013)

Can we even assign IB's cancelling power to LPSAD though?
When he finally got it, IB focused it's cancelling power on Fiamma's arm, but Fiamma's arm was "producing too much power constantly" or something similar.

If the cancelling was focused on his arm, then how could he use it on others?


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## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Can we even assign IB's cancelling power to LPSAD though?
> When he finally got it, IB focused it's cancelling power on Fiamma's arm, but Fiamma's arm was "producing too much power constantly" or something similar.
> 
> If the cancelling was focused on his arm, then how could he use it on others?


I don't see why not.

It's not as if IB has a priority list or something similar. It doesn't really "focus" its negation.


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## Xam (Aug 24, 2013)

Regicide said:


> I don't see why not.
> 
> It's not as if IB has a priority list or something similar. It doesn't really "focus" its negation.


My problem was that it was saying that IB focused all it's power on Fiamma's right hand, but it couldn't cancel it out because it was constantly producing so much power.

I can quote the passage if you want if you want.

There's also the stuff of no one but Touma being able to use IB since it was only IB connected to his shoulder, but that's most likely just Exposition.


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## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

Shouldn't really matter that it was failing to negate all of Fiamma's power, in my opinion.

It should still be capable of defending against passive shit like various hax, which is what's really important anyways.


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## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

Quote the passage. You remembered it wrong


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## Xam (Aug 24, 2013)

I did remember it wrong. 


> Kamijou Touma’s right arm spun through the air with a line of blood drawn behind it. That narrow red line made loops creating a strange form of art.
> Fiamma of the Right lightly held out his hand.
> It grabbed Kamijou’s right arm as if absorbing it.
> That right arm was known as Imagine Breaker.
> ...


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## Velocity (Aug 24, 2013)

> In other words, the power sleeping within Fiamma was constantly creating such great power that Imagine Breaker?s effects were not enough to negate it.



Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?


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## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

That just means that Fiammas internal energy generation is on par with stuff like Innocentius or Dragon's Breath


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## Xam (Aug 24, 2013)

Dragon breath more than Innocentius, Innocentius is just constantly regening, not massively massive like Dragons Breath or Dark Wings.


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## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

Wording _is_ 'constantly producing', after all  

Could easily be either one .g


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## Xam (Aug 24, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Wording _is_ 'constantly producing', after all
> 
> Could easily be either one .g



but his power constantly regening wouldn't make sense, it would have to be constantly being wiped out to be constantly regening.


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## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Dragon breath more than Innocentius, Innocentius is just constantly regening, not massively massive like Dragons Breath or Dark Wings.


Nah. Touma was negating Dragon Breath, it's just that it was overwhelming his negation speed.


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## Xam (Aug 24, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Nah. Touma was negating Dragon Breath, it's just that it was overwhelming his negation speed.


Isn't that the same thing as Fiamma's power?


Honestly, It's not like that matters in this context, back to the topic, enough +1s.

What about FCK?


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## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

If FCK doesn't have Medusa Eyes by default and IB can prevent BFR, I'm not really sure what else he has in his arsenal of hax that can put down Fiamma.


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## lokoxDZz (Aug 24, 2013)

There's nothing in FCK arsenal in the level to put Fiamma down.

FCK is going down here,no matter what.


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## Crimson King (Aug 24, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Fiamma would be alive if as a statue, FCK wouldn't be.
> 
> Sides, can FCK even get the petrification off before he gets a relativistic chicken claw to the face?


Once you turn to a statue, you immediately begin to disintegrate to ash.




Crimson Dragoon said:


> I wouldn't say he has them, unless he has like prep to use his resources and implant them into himself



FCK can probably create them on a whim. He's shown mater creation powers.



Also, since the arm waits, FCK uses subspace and lets the arm punch him


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## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> Also, since the arm waits, FCK uses subspace and lets the arm punch him


The arm can tank its own attacks.


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## Crimson King (Aug 24, 2013)

Regicide said:


> The arm can tank its own attacks.



If the arm punches FCK, all the damage goes to Fiamma


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## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> If the arm punches FCK, all the damage goes to Fiamma


The arm defends Fiamma.


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## Crimson King (Aug 24, 2013)

Regicide said:


> The arm defends Fiamma.



The arm can't do shit if it's the one hurting Fiamma


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## lokoxDZz (Aug 24, 2013)

Yeah,he can because the arm protects fiamma from killing himself .


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## Crimson King (Aug 24, 2013)

lokoxDZz said:


> Yeah,he can because the arm protects fiamma from killing himself .



You don't know what the subspace does do you? :gio

Zebra
 the fist will be smashing Fiamma.


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## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

CK is probably right, by the way.

An attack that gets arounds the Holy Rights auto defense capabilities? At speeds Fiamma cant react to?

That'll be all she wrote


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## lokoxDZz (Aug 24, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> You don't know what the subspace does do you? :gio
> 
> Zebra
> the fist will be smashing Fiamma.



I know what is it,but it can be used against a blast from the arm?

Also fiamma still can tank his own atack


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## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

lokoxDZz said:


> Also fiamma still can tank his own atack


He can't. Not technically anyways.

Fiamma himself is a normal human, it's the Third Arm/Holy Right which provides his defense.


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## Crimson King (Aug 24, 2013)

Yes, the subspace redirects all attacks to the other person.

While Fiamma is blasting himself, FCK turns him to dust with his newly created medusa eyes.


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## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

Fiamma isnt inherently superhuman. His durability feats come from the Holy Right. His flesh and blood body is only peak human


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## Crimson King (Aug 24, 2013)

Regicide said:


> He can't. Not technically anyways.
> 
> Fiamma himself is a normal human, it's the Third Arm/Holy Right which provides his defense.



Well then, he's  fucked


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## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> FCK turns him to dust with his newly created medusa eyes.


Imagine Breaker. 

Actually, would the negation also apply to Fiamma's own attacks?


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## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> Well then, he's  fucked



Pretty much. Glad cooler heads kept this thread from becoming a ToAru wankfest


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## Gundam Meister (Aug 24, 2013)

A question  what the maximum fire power that this  subspace can redirect this ability look like a massive NLF you have to prove it can redirect the level of energy Fiamma can put out


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## Crimson King (Aug 24, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Imagine Breaker.
> 
> Actually, would the negation also apply to Fiamma's own attacks?



Doesn't that require touch?

FCK can create medusa eyes surrounding Fiamma

360 view of medusa eyes = he's fucked.


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## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Imagine Breaker.
> 
> Actually, would the negation also apply to Fiamma's own attacks?



Its stored in the Holy Right  so it wouldnt, no


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## Crimson King (Aug 24, 2013)

Gundam Meister said:


> A question  what the maximum fire power that this  subspace can redirect this ability look like a massive NLF you have to prove it can redirect the level of energy Fiamma can put out



It doesn't reflect. It basically turns the user into a portal that connects to his target. 

Example, you throw a rock at the user, the one connected to the user will get hit instead.


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## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

Gundam Meister said:


> A question  what the maximum fire power that this  subspace can redirect this ability look like a massive NLF you have to prove it can redirect the level of energy Fiamma can put out



Thats not how a NLF works


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## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

Gundam Meister said:


> A question  what the maximum fire power that this  subspace can redirect this ability look like a massive NLF you have to prove it can redirect the level of energy Fiamma can put out


It just looks like dimensional hax, no energy involved.



Crimson King said:


> Doesn't that require touch?


Seems to provide resistance against passive shit. Otherwise Touma would have been soulfucked during the Angel Fall incident. 



TehChron said:


> Its stored in the Holy Right  so it wouldnt, no


Doesn't he use the Holy Right to attack?


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## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

What CK said


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## Crimson King (Aug 24, 2013)

Regicide said:


> It just looks like dimensional hax, no energy involved.
> 
> Seems to provide resistance against passive shit. Otherwise Touma would have been soulfucked during the Angel Fall incident.
> 
> Doesn't he use the Holy Right to attack?



Then I'd imagine everything but Fiamma's arm turns to dust. The arm might take a bit longer.


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## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

Regicide said:


> It just looks like dimensional hax, no energy involved.
> 
> Seems to provide resistance against passive shit. Otherwise Touma would have been soulfucked during the Angel Fall incident.
> 
> Doesn't he use the Holy Right to attack?



He didnt obtain it for the negation functionality. He hunted it down be,ause IB gave his Holy Right several passive enhancements

Not to mention Fiammas output surpassed Imagine Breakers negation capabilities


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## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

TehChron said:


> He didnt obtain it for the negation functionality. He hunted it down be,ause IB gave his Holy Right several passive enhancements
> 
> Not to mention Fiammas output surpassed Imagine Breakers negation capabilities


Fair enough.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 24, 2013)

Saisai's ability can only create a small portal..... And has never been shown to defend against an attack which covers a whole body, much less one that covers a continent or fucking planet....so yea, it does fall under NLF. In fact, the biggest dimensional hole it created was a few inches around. Also, Fiammas HR can attack and defend at the same time, read the satellite quote again for that feat. It created a defense and at the same time , without letting Fiamma get hurt, oneshitted the satellite.


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## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

Blocked the beam, then a hand wave, then the satellite was destroyed, Greedo

It was a sequence, not a single instant


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 24, 2013)

Also, That ability was an ability that was given to saisei and it may have required prep just to give it to her. Unless the Fck is given prep, which he isn't. Then he won't have it at the start of the match. Because if you read the manga, you can see he never uses that ability against anyone. So while I don't doubt he can give it to himself with an unknown amount of prep, just like with medusa eyes, I'm not seeing how he's going to have it at the start of a match that has absolutely no prep time.


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## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

If it doesnt require prep, cant FCK just activate it, and then stab himself


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 24, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Blocked the beam, then a hand wave, then the satellite was destroyed, Greedo
> 
> It was a sequence, not a single instant



He would have had to keep defending against the beam at the same time he was destroying the satellite. Otherwise he would have suffered from burns.........


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 24, 2013)

TehChron said:


> If it doesnt require prep, cant FCK just activate it, and then stab himself



Doubt it's that simple. That ability was given to saisei through unknown means by the mibu. And we don't even know how long that took.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

Othinus said:


> He would have had to keep defending against the beam at the same time he was destroying the satellite. Otherwise he would have suffered from burns.........



Reread the sequence. Fiammas counterattack blew away the bombardment and the satellite with it


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 24, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Reread the sequence. Fiammas counterattack blew away the bombardment and the satellite with it



You don't get what I'm saying. He was still engulfed by the light when he blew away the satellite.

What your saying is that he stopped his defense in order to throw out an attack on the satellite. Rather than attacking the satellite and defending against the light coming from the satellite at the same time. Which wouldn't make sense, since if he did the former and stopped his defense to attack the satellite above, the instant he did so, he would have been burned by the light that was still surrounding him. 

Seriously, don't make me make a MS paint drawing or some shit to make you understand this.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

Othinus said:


> You don't get what I'm saying. He was still engulfed by the light when he blew away the satellite.
> 
> What your saying is that he stopped his defense in order to throw out an attack on the satellite. Rather than attacking the satellite and defending against the light coming from the satellite at the same time. Which wouldn't make sense, since if he did the former and stopped his defense to attack the satellite above, the instant he did so, he would have been burned by the light that was still surrounding him.


Wait, why does this matter anyways?


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Aug 24, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Doubt it's that simple. That ability was given to saisei through unknown means by the mibu. And we don't even know how long that took.


What the hell you are even arguing about, Greedo?
I'm confused


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 24, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> What the hell you are even arguing about, Greedo?
> I'm confused




Point 1: Fiamma can attack and defend at the same time.

Point 2: FCK doesn't have Saisei's dimensional gate as a standard ability. He could get it, but it'll require an unknown amount of prep.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

Greedo, greedo, greedo.

Dont get snappy with me, especially with explaining ToAru feats. My only holes are in the Endymion material, so unless youre citing that, you'll need to do something before contradicting me.

Now before you waste your time on MS Paint, I am saying that Fiamma shifted from defense to attack. His counter was overwhelming enough that defense was uneccessary.

Both bombardment and satellite were destroyed at once the moment Fiamma waved his right arm.

Check your reading comprehension


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Aug 24, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Point 2: FCK doesn't have Saisei's dimensional gate as a standard ability. He could get it, but it'll require an unknown amount of prep.


What
Saisei learned her dimensional shenanigans with Mibus in the same way Yukimura learned Sekireigan
Prep has nothing to do with it (unless training is prep)


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 24, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Greedo, greedo, greedo.
> 
> Dont get snappy with me, especially with explaining ToAru feats. My only holes are in the Endymion material, so unless youre citing that, you'll need to do something before contradicting me.
> 
> ...




.....

The problem with your argument is that he attacked the satellite while still in the light.

Example (what would happen if he dropped his defence to attack): Fiamma is hit by laser> Blocks Laser > stops blocking laser to attack satellite that is using laser > dies because the instant he stopped defending against the light, he gets burned.

I realize he attacked the source of the beam, but that doesn't matter, Because if he could not attack and defend at the same time, he still would have had to drop his defence against the beam for an instant, in order to get rid of the satellite, which is the source of the beam.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 24, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> What
> Saisei learned her dimensional shenanigans with Mibus in the same way Yukimura learned Sekireigan
> Prep has nothing to do with it (unless training is prep)



When was this stated? I'm pretty sure it was never actually stated exactly how she obtained it. All we know is that the mibu gave it to her.

Also, isn't it impossible to turn off? if the FCK had it as a standard ability he would have just redirected everyone's (especially a lot of Kyo's) attacks.

Also, with yukimura, it was more like Anri just touched Yukimura's face, and yuki got sekireigan. It had nothing to do with training.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Aug 24, 2013)

Othinus said:


> When was this stated? I'm pretty sure it was never actually stated exactly how she obtained it. All we know is that the mibu gave it to her.


"Gave it to her" or "learned with them" in the end will be a* mibu technique*. There's no point on arguing if Former Crimson King have it or not



> Also, isn't it impossible to turn off?


No
She can freely "turn on" and "turn off" the ability



> if the FCK had it as a standard ability he would have just redirected everyone's (especially a lot of Kyo's) attacks.


Mostly due PIS and CIS


----------



## Xam (Aug 24, 2013)

What is going on here.
Why haven't I read SDK


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Aug 24, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Not really. Sekireigan was easily gotten that way. We still don't know how saisei's ability was gotten.


Greedo
If the Mibu *gave it to her*
Arguing if the Mibu (i.e Former Crimson King) know how use the ability don't make any sense



> ........
> Problem is, if it's the latter and he has to give himself that ability, it still requires prep.


what
It's a technique used freely
No prep is required
Did Former Crimson King take prep to use Kouryuu?



> Scans?.




*Spoiler*: __


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 24, 2013)

Oh....


It looks like saisei has to react to open and close the sub-dimension.

That isn't happening against the holy right, even with the FCK's reactions....

But again, it's a planetary threat at full power. Even if he could open it or react in time, her subdimension can't defend against an attack of that scale.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Also, I haven't seen anyone make a counter argument to the fact that it hasn't defended against a planetary or continent level attack. And the fact that the HR can attack and defend at the same time.



Really?

Post a quote of the Holy Right multitasking in such a manner.

Also, hell-_ooo_ laptop, how I've missed you



> .....
> 
> The problem with your argument is that he attacked the satellite while still in the light.
> 
> ...



Pfft.

Im not sure if you're reaching or just have that much trouble with reading it.



> The white light *was blown away by his Third Arm like eraser scraps being flicked away with a finger. *That was all.



Blown away by the Third Arm with a pretty obvious hand based analogy to give us a picture of what the action looked like.

Implying?

The Holy Right stopped covering Fiamma, and _flicked the shit off_



> *With that, that tremendous light that had been wielded with such fury vanished.* Kamijou?s vision was average, so he could not see what was occurring outside the atmosphere, but he knew. Fiamma, the man who stood before his eyes, had shot down the satellite with that simple motion.






> .....
> 
> The problem with your argument is that he attacked the satellite while still in the light.



Hmmmmmmmm....

Touma's description seems to outright state _that the light dissipated *only after the flicking motion *had been performed by the Holy Right._

Implying that Fiamma needed to have the Holy Right _do one thing at a time_. Since the Arm no longer covered him, given Touma's description of the Right taking action itself, it was able to attack _in such a way that the laser and the satellite shooting it were destroyed simultaneously_.

Now I can go on about how the books show the Holy Rights only done one thing at a time whenever Fiamma has used it, but that would be time consuming, and you frankly know better.

I think this matter is settled


----------



## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

Additionally, the closest thing to a continent level attack Fiamma has shown in any form is the Telesma blast that Accelerator tanked. And that required extensive prep.

So...whether or not they've tanked a continent or planet level blast is pretty much irrelevant.


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## Crimson King (Aug 24, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Saisai's ability can only create a small portal......




Nope, it affects her whole body. 




Othinus said:


> But again, it's a planetary threat at full power. Even if he could open it or react in time, her subdimension can't defend against an attack of that scale.



Why not?


----------



## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Additionally, the closest thing to a continent level attack Fiamma has shown in any form is the Telesma blast that Accelerator tanked. And that required extensive prep.
> 
> So...whether or not they've tanked a continent or planet level blast is pretty much irrelevant.


Not exactly buying the implication that Fiamma would be unable to threaten Accel with the Holy Right here.

Albeit since no one in this matchup other Fiamma himself is continent level, I'm not really sure how relevant this is anyways, as Fiamma cannot intentionally raise the output of the Holy Right without a corresponding target for it to adjust itself to.

Since we're talking about dimensional hax, so the level of DC shouldn't matter unless we're talking hardcore bullshit like universals or something.


----------



## lokoxDZz (Aug 24, 2013)

Why a small portal would be able to redirect a full powered atack that covered in power enough a continent to planet+?


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## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

Why would it function any differently to the DC of the attack? It's not a shield, it's just a fucking portal.

Never mind that the Holy Right isn't going to be firing an attack of that scale in this match. Its destructive power changes to be just enough to destroy the enemy. If you haven't noticed, no one in SDK is continent level.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 24, 2013)

^It's lpsd fiamma in one of the scenarios. Also, wouldn't IB negate the portal to begin with?

And yea, it kind of does matter. That portal has never been shown to cover the whole body at once, and has only opened up enough to fit in sword slices and stabs.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

Othinus said:


> ^It's lpsd fiamma in one of the scenarios.


Fair point, I forgot about that.


----------



## lokoxDZz (Aug 24, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Why would it function any differently to the DC of the attack? It's not a shield, it's just a fucking portal.
> 
> Never mind that the Holy Right isn't going to be firing an attack of that scale in this match. Its destructive power changes to be just enough to destroy the enemy. If you haven't noticed, no one in SDK is continent level.



The Holy Right use the best method to destroy the enemy,so he would chose a continental atack than a atack like that,the Holy Right always search the best way to finish his oponent


----------



## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

Is that right?

So why did it fail to kill Touma and Othinus, then?

_Because it has limits_


----------



## lokoxDZz (Aug 24, 2013)

Othinus i can't remember at all.

But touma he sucessfull take his IB and nearly killed him,until we know about the "invisible thing" we can't say at all.


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## RedSurvivor (Aug 24, 2013)

Touma I believe is explained as IB messing with HR's ability to figure out how much power to use. Fiamma said it couldn't figure out the correct output.

Othinus vs. Fiamma was an interesting case of "The ability to win 50% of the time" versus "The ability to always be strong enough to win". Drawing conclusions from that kind of thing is difficult. Plus hadn't Fiamma at that point lost his right arm and couldn't control his HR very well?


----------



## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

Then let's go back to Crowley. And the thing hidden in Touma's right arm.

At any rate, IB never interfered with the Holy Rights ability to assess how much force should be used. It just negated it.

Which means we have three on hand examples, minimum, of the Holy Right being unable to successfully defeat an adversary.

More than enough to indicate an upper limit to the abilities effectiveness, which means that stuff like Planet-Busting Attacks are claims that need to be backed up by feats in order to indicate that the Holy Right truly is capable of such an attack.

And I _really_ shouldnt have to go into why the Star of Betheleham's Talesma blast isnt an unprepped ability of any form of Fiamma, right?

Because having to spell it out for people would not reflect well on the parties needing it.


----------



## RedSurvivor (Aug 24, 2013)

> “But you should be proud,” said Fiamma cheerfully with his much too strange-looking right arm.
> 
> He was not enjoying fighting Kamijou.
> 
> ...



I do concede though that the Invisible Thing shows that Fiamma has limits.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 24, 2013)

Anyone trying to argue that the Holy Right had no limits was out of their mind anyways.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

lokoxDZz said:


> Othinus i can't remember at all.
> 
> But touma he sucessfull take his IB and nearly killed him,until we know about the "invisible thing" we can't say at all.



That wasn't due to the Holy Right's "auto-win" functionality, it was just a cutting attack. Like the 40km flame sword.

Which means its something that Fiamma consciously directed.

Bringing us to my next point, which is that the second we bring Fiamma's conscious input in, we have to take his stats into account.

Stats that are fatally slower than the FCK.

Meaning he loses. The assumption people who think that Fiamma can win are working under is that the Holy Right can defeat FCK with its automatic functions. Which means that cutting attack/flame sword thing? Trying it would actually wind up getting Fiamma killed, rather than giving him the win.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 24, 2013)

RedSurvivor said:


> I do concede though that the Invisible Thing shows that Fiamma has limits.



Do keep in mind that at that point _Fiamma did not have a damn clue what he was talking about._

He thought he was invincible after obtaining IB, and he based that on prior research. Not to mention that most of Volume 22 is spent _explaining how Fiamma's entire plan was a massive waste of everyone's time_. From Touma, to Crowley, to Birdway, everyone was monologuing about why Fiamma's grandiose schemes were completely pointless.


----------



## RedSurvivor (Aug 24, 2013)

He was wrong about which Aeon he was using, and his "Become God" plan didn't work, but I find it unlikely he didn't know how one of the basic aspects of his own power was functioning.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

He got the Aeon wrong, didnt understand the first thing about Imagine Breaker, based his entire plan for "world peace" around Telesma objects which no one could use, and Birdway dismissed as meaningless "junk"...Overly relied on Misha as an Enforcer and forgot to account for the fact that Crowley could kick his ass at any time...

Yeah, theres all _kinds_ of reasons to conclude that Fiamma had his head firmly lodged up his ass on those points. 

Just because you "find it unlikely" isnt really enough to contradict the evidence indicating otherwise.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 25, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Then let's go back to Crowley. And the thing hidden in Touma's right arm.
> 
> At any rate, IB never interfered with the Holy Rights ability to assess how much force should be used. It just negated it.
> 
> ...







...........



Are you seriously trying to say that LSPD fiamma can't planet bust? Really?


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Othinus said:


> ...........
> 
> 
> 
> Are you seriously trying to say that LSPD fiamma can't planet bust? Really?



Indeed I am.

Prove otherwise.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 25, 2013)

Downplaying much.

You use three examples, two of which were when he was not in LPSAD. The only time it was surpassed in LPSAD was by the invisible thing, and we don't even know what that thing can do.


Then there's gabriel who can fuck with thousands of celestial bodies, and we know, and were repeatedly told that Fiamma was stronger than her when he reached that point.

Your main argument is that Fiamma didn't know what he was talking about at that point........when it was a narrative statement that he could destroy the planet, not fiamma's word.

Saying he can't planet bust is bullshit and you know it. Him surviving a planet buster is a different matter. But claiming he can't use a planet busting attack is ridiculous, when it was stated multiple times he could by what may as well be the fucking author.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

TehChron said:


> More than enough to indicate an upper limit to the abilities effectiveness, which means that stuff like Planet-Busting Attacks are claims that need to be backed up by feats in order to indicate that the Holy Right truly is capable of such an attack.


I was under the impression that being superior to the Holy Right was a feat for said characters, not that the Holy Right was weaker than previously thought. Also helps that we're talking about a narrative statement here, rather than a description given to us by the cast.

It's not as if La Persona Superiore a Dio wasn't a separate form or anything or that planet-busting is at all outlandish in this verse.



TehChron said:


> And I _really_ shouldnt have to go into why the Star of Betheleham's Talesma blast isnt an unprepped ability of any form of Fiamma, right?


Why does this matter? The blast of Telesma was a natural result of the heavens being filled with Telesma, it wasn't a conscious attack from Fiamma.

That being said, powerscaling would put the Holy Right at this level. Since it's sort of superior to Accelerator and shit. Who also has a petaton-level feat with stealing the planet's rotational energy, which would apply to both his reflection and destructive capacity. Or the whole, tanked the blast which would have enveloped all of Eurasia thing. Which judging from the Type-Jupiter calc, should be somewhere in the low triple-digit petatons.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 25, 2013)

Tehchron, You may as well dismiss every ability in any novel at that point.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

> (Once I rearrange the depths of the earth, all the gears will have been readjusted and the devices will have been set to keep them running smoothly. Then this world will once again be moving as it should be.)
> That meant that he no longer needed the boy who had lost his right arm.
> That mass of flesh that had been nothing more than an adapter to keep that right arm in the world needed to be quickly disposed of.
> (I will save this world. You are no longer necessary to do that.)
> ...



Third-Person Narrator from Fiamma's point of view.

Only reference to LPSD Fiamma being able to generate a planet-busting attack _potentially_ in the entire series.

To my knowledge.

But perhaps you know another, more solid example?

I await this demonstration of your expertise with relish, Greedo-kun~


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

Prove that paragraph is from Fiamma's viewpoint.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Regicide said:


> I was under the impression that being superior to the Holy Right was a feat for said characters, not that the Holy Right was weaker than previously thought. Also helps that we're talking about a narrative statement here, rather than a description given to us by the cast.
> 
> It's not as if La Persona Superiore a Dio wasn't a separate form or anything or that planet-busting is at all outlandish in this verse.
> 
> ...



Where do you get that from? Considering all the effort that Fiamma went through to obtain that amount of energy, _Accelerator being superior to Fiamma in terms of raw DC isn't strange at all._


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 25, 2013)

> In that instant, what Fiamma of the Right felt first was not anger or fear. It was doubt.
> 
> There was not a scratch on the boy who should have been turned to ash.
> 
> In fact, the great swirl of light Fiamma had fired had split in two right in front of the boy and scattered to either side of him. Yet that attack had held such power that it could blow away a planet or recreate any of the legends in Christianity.





It was stated twice.


Also...

> claiming this statement is invalid

> is ok with the incredibly similar _character_ statement by FCK that he can use all Mibu abilities when he hasn't shown _any_ of them.

> obviously not bias at all


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

Because the Holy Right both being unable to defend against base Accel's DC nor being able to threaten him with attacks of its own is kind of fucking absurd. For reasons like Dark Wing Accelerator being inferior to Kazakiri. Who is below Fiamma.

The entire reason he had to go through such a convoluted plan to begin with was that he needed to target World War III as an enemy which would raise him to that level. Because that enemy didn't naturally exist in the world.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Prove that paragraph is from Fiamma's viewpoint.





> Kamijou Touma?s right arm spun through the air with a line of blood drawn behind it. That narrow red line made loops creating a strange form of art.
> Fiamma of the Right lightly held out his hand.
> It grabbed Kamijou?s right arm as if absorbing it.
> That right arm was known as Imagine Breaker.
> ...



Bolded are Fiamma's own thoughts. Additionally...



> He did not know what, but something he needed to be cautious of was coming.
> And?
> Kamijou Touma used his own power to crush that invisible something.
> A different power appeared above that great power that had gathered around Kamijou?s shoulder. That other power seemed to open up a large mouth and swallow up the first power. As if this giant mouth was chewing, the air around the shoulder shook looked like sugar water.
> ...



The entire purpose of the quoted passage is to indicate _what's happening to Touma from Fiamma's perspective_. It's meant to further strengthen the mysterious nature of what's going on. 

A very, very obvious narrative purpose.

Also, its not at all unusual for someone who refers to himself as "Ore-sama" to think of himself in the third person. It's a trait used to get across a person's profound arrogance.

So....Yeah.

Poisoning the Well, is it? In any case, you're playing the wrong game with me


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 25, 2013)

Fiamma doesn't refer to himself as "he". Only Ore-sama or "the great me".

Calling himself "he" would be fucking retarded.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 25, 2013)

TehChron said:


> The Holy Right stopped covering Fiamma, and _flicked the shit off_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



May as well quote this too....

Anyways, That's my point, he flicked it while still in the light. If he could only do one thing at a time this would not be possible.


I don't think I'm the one that needs his reading comprehension checked here.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Othinus said:


> It was stated twice.
> 
> 
> Also...
> ...



Oh, I never claimed to be an expert on SDK, I've never read the series.

But I _am_ an expert on ToAru, and if something sounds like it can get past the Holy Right? Then chances are it can get past the Holy Right.

Now then, Greedo, Regicide, Ive been looking at the ToAru profiles on the wiki, and I've noticed that there is a glaring absence of my name on the list of supporters for the series.

I'm thinking that once I win this argument, I'll have you add me onto that page with the caption "resident series expert" next to the link to that great profile bern made of me.



> Fiamma doesn't refer to himself as Fiamma. Ore-sama means "the great me". Him refering to himself as Fiamma would just make him look retarded



And "The great me" is first person? 



> Because the Holy Right both being unable to defend against base Accel's DC nor being able to threaten him with attacks of its own is kind of fucking absurd. For reasons like Dark Wing Accelerator being inferior to Kazakiri. Who is below Fiamma.
> 
> The entire reason he had to go through such a convoluted plan to begin with was that he needed to target World War III as an enemy which would raise him to that level. Because that enemy didn't naturally exist in the world.



But did it _actually work_? 

He didnt account for Touma being unable to reclaim Imagine Breaker. Nor did he account for the uselessness of the Telesma items he produced. All we know for certain is that the Star of Bethlehem functioned as a temple for a ritual to successfully realign the elements. Fiamma was just wrong about _so very, very much_

And I never said that the Holy Right wasnt a threat. I simply said that it wasn't really all that odd that _stealing rotational energy from the planet and redirecting it into an attack was a feat of destructive capacity that outstripped what the Holy Right was shown to be capable of._

Also, regarding the Dark Wings bit, youre wordings kind of vague on whether or not the idea of Dark Wing Accel being stronger or weaker than Kazakiri is absurd.

Personally Id find Dark Wing Accelerator being weaker to be laughable at best.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Othinus said:


> May as well quote this too....
> 
> Anyways, That's my point, he flicked it while still in the light. If he could only do one thing at a time this would not be possible.
> 
> ...



...

Huh.

Fiamma has three arms, yes? His right one waves, and his chicken arm carries out broken magical effects.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that the left has no inherent powers of its own. Maybe he jacks off with it in order to preserve the holiness of his right hand? Who knows.

So we have ourselves a bit of a quandary. The right arm, you know, the human one, exists as a remote control of sorts for the magical Eagle Claw. But otherwise has no special intrinsic value.

That means that, surprisingly, if there is something _obstructing the giant laser beam, it is the the avian appendage._ Now, hands, convenient things that they are...

You know what? Hold up your own right hand, Greed, this makes things easier.

Now, make a fist.

See? Easy.

Now, open that right hand, palm up.

Not so hard, was it?

Now try doing _both at the same time_.


*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 



A little more complicated, wasn't it?


































And now you see why Fiamma had to stop defending with his chicken claw, in order to flick away that energy beam like the casual annoyance that it was.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Now then, Greedo, Regicide, Ive been looking at the ToAru profiles on the wiki, and I've noticed that there is a glaring absence of my name on the list of supporters for the series.
> 
> I'm thinking that once I win this argument, I'll have you add me onto that page with the caption "resident series expert" next to the link to that great profile bern made of me.


I never noticed, nor did I really care all that much about who was on the list of supporters. As there's a lot of series which seem to have profiles that don't encompass every OBD member.

But hey, maybe I'll get to adding you when I stop being a lazy fuck. ETA on me not being lazy unclear.



TehChron said:


> Also, regarding the Dark Wings bit, youre wordings kind of vague on whether or not the idea of Dark Wing Accel being stronger or weaker than Kazakiri is absurd.
> 
> Personally Id find Dark Wing Accelerator being weaker to be laughable at best.


And personally, I find the argument from belief to be silly, but perhaps that's just me.

Since we do kind of have Aiwass's own analysis on the strength comparison between the two. Given that he just fucking fought Dark Wing Accel and his avatar is made using Kazakiri as a base, it's fairly reasonable to trust his conclusions on the matter over your's.


----------



## lokoxDZz (Aug 25, 2013)

After reading all this,the outcome will change or not?


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Regicide said:


> I never noticed, nor did I really care all that much about who was on the list of supporters. As there's a lot of series which seem to have profiles that don't encompass every OBD member.
> 
> But hey, maybe I'll get to adding you when I stop being a lazy fuck. ETA on me not being lazy unclear.



No worries, Im mostly just taunting you with that.



> And personally, I find the argument from belief to be silly, but perhaps that's just me.
> 
> Since we do kind of have Aiwass's own analysis on the strength comparison between the two. Given that he just fucking fought Dark Wing Accel and his avatar is made using Kazakiri as a base, it's fairly reasonable to trust his conclusions on the matter over your's.



Choker Accelerator casually reflects Fuse Kazakiri when joining the fight against Misha, right?

He then judges himself that he'd be able to take her out by himself, given that Reflect is effective, and she is therefore weaker than he is.

But since we're discussing Aiwass...



> ?So this is all?? Aiwass said looking down at Accelerator who was lying in the middle of a pool of blood.
> A normal person would certainly have died, but Accelerator was still breathing. He was subconsciously using his vector conversion ability to circulate his blood between the broken blood vessels. Due to this, streams of red liquid were flowing around him like a drink spilled in outer space.
> But that was it.
> He was just barely managing to hold onto his life. He could do nothing more to revive himself.
> ?*I tried to bring you to attack me by bringing up Last Order, but I was able to do so much easier than I had expected. With this level of maturity, you cannot even deal with Fuse Kazakiri.* Dammit Aleister, are you rushing things this time, too? ?The matter of Kakine Teitoku bothers me as well.?



You can argue what Aiwass is referring to by "maturity", but it is by no means definitely referring to purely levels of power. Given the context, he's more likely just referring to maturity in its broadest sense:

That meaning one's own personal growth. 

But hey, thats up for debate, I guess.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Choker Accelerator casually reflects Fuse Kazakiri when joining the fight against Misha, right?
> 
> He then judges himself that he'd be able to take her out by himself, given that Reflect is effective, and she is therefore weaker than he is.


Accelerator was also thinking out of his fucking ass at the time, since he wasn't taking Misha seriously either.

It was an analysis based on the limited information he had just from looking at them. It's not as if he was aware of either of their full abilities at the time.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Accelerator was also thinking out of his fucking ass at the time, since he wasn't taking Misha seriously either.
> 
> It was an analysis based on the limited information he had just from looking at them. It's not as if he was aware of either of their full abilities at the time.



Its not like FUSE=Kazakiri has some sort of exotic attack she pulled out that could circumvent Accelerator's Vector Control.

The moment Accelerator proved capable of redirecting her and her attacks, then their positions on the food chain were cemented.


----------



## Crimson King (Aug 25, 2013)

My god people it's simple logic.

Link removed

Where in that page does it say it only covers a tiny part of her?

It says her body and cells became a subdimension, meaning more than a tiny spot.

Try actually reading the manga before dismissing an ability


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Its not like FUSE=Kazakiri has some sort of exotic attack she pulled out that could circumvent Accelerator's Vector Control.
> 
> The moment Accelerator proved capable of redirecting her and her attacks, then their positions on the food chain were cemented.


That's more of a compatibility issue than anything else. She's higher up than him on the ladder in general, but this can be circumvented through comparisons between individual powersets.

Kind of like how random curses could kill Accel due to lacking vectors, Thor's arc fusion blades originating from electricity manipulation making him a poor match against Mikoto, or Aureolus possessing the hax to take down half the cast but being fucked against Saints due to being blitzed before he can get off a command.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Regicide said:


> That's more of a compatibility issue than anything else. She's higher up than him on the ladder in general, but this can be circumvented through comparisons between individual powersets.
> 
> Kind of like how random curses could kill Accel due to lacking vectors, Thor's arc fusion blades originating from electricity manipulation making him a poor match against Mikoto, or Aureolus possessing the hax to take down half the cast but being fucked against Saints due to being blitzed before he can get off a command.



I know all of this.

So what does that have to do with:



> And personally, I find the argument from belief to be silly, but perhaps that's just me.
> 
> Since we do kind of have Aiwass's own analysis on the strength comparison between the two. Given that he just fucking fought Dark Wing Accel and his avatar is made using Kazakiri as a base, it's fairly reasonable to trust his conclusions on the matter over your's.



Given that you're basing that statement off of:



> ?So this is all?? Aiwass said looking down at Accelerator who was lying in the middle of a pool of blood.
> A normal person would certainly have died, but Accelerator was still breathing. He was subconsciously using his vector conversion ability to circulate his blood between the broken blood vessels. Due to this, streams of red liquid were flowing around him like a drink spilled in outer space.
> But that was it.
> He was just barely managing to hold onto his life. He could do nothing more to revive himself.
> ?*I tried to bring you to attack me by bringing up Last Order, but I was able to do so much easier than I had expected. With this level of maturity, you cannot even deal with Fuse Kazakiri.* Dammit Aleister, are you rushing things this time, too? ?The matter of Kakine Teitoku bothers me as well.?



So, here's the way I see it.

Either Aiwass, like Fiamma would later prove to be, has no idea what the hell he's talking about. Assuming he's referring to _only a situation where the two of them were to fight_, of course.

Or this entire discussion was a random tangent that not only has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but also was based on you misunderstanding the text. Given that if anyone would have known that Accelerator could reflect Kazakiri, it would have been Kamachi when he wrote that particular passage. Meaning _that Aiwass was referring to something completely different that can be discussed at another time._

Is there an option C that I missed, perchance?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 25, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Oh, I never claimed to be an expert on SDK, I've never read the series




In which case....


Do you know why everyone assumes that the FCK can use every Mibu tech?

Because he said, in a character statement, something like, "Of course I know how to use the sekireigan, why would I not know the moves of my followers".

This is accepted, even though he used close to none of the Mibu techniques other than Kyo's attacks, sekireigan and a few other minor things.

Yet Fiamma being stated by the narrarator that he can destroy the planet is somehow absurd?

thats bullshit and you know it.




TehChron said:


> ...
> 
> Huh.
> 
> ...



your still completely missing my point here....

I don't know how to make this easier for you to understand...


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Is there an option C that I missed, perchance?


Or, perhaps she does and simply never got the chance to demonstrate this because the two of them have never fought in-series.

It's not as if such an ability would be relevant in a fight against say, Misha, for example.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

lokoxDZz said:


> After reading all this,the outcome will change or not?



Its based off of some people claiming NLF on the subspace thing, assuming that Fiamma can bust out planet-level attacks while in LPSD mode.

Im saying that Fiamma in LPSD mode is _not_ planet-level, and now the thread has largely come down to a pissing contest between myself and regicide/greedo to determine which of us is the superior authority on ToAru.

So essentially, whichever one of us wins the argument determines whether or not NLF can be brought to bear against the subspace argument.

If NLF does apply, then Fiamma stands a chance of winning.

If it does not, then FCK wins for absolute certain.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Im saying that Fiamma in LPSD mode is _not_ planet-level, and now the thread has largely come down to a pissing contest between myself and regicide/greedo to determine which of us is the superior authority on ToAru.


I find this a preferable outcome than what occurred with the FCK versus Servants thread, at least.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Othinus said:


> In which case....
> 
> 
> Do you know why everyone assumes that the FCK can use every Mibu tech?
> ...



Because I established that for that particular passage, Fiamma _was_ the Narrator? Or at the very least, we were seeing that scene entirely from Fiamma's perspective.

I could go into reading comprehension, but the way you're ignoring something so obvious is bullshit and you know it.






> your still completely missing my point here....
> 
> I don't know how to make this easier for you to understand...



Let's see that MS paint of yours, then.

I just clearly demonstrated the physical limitations of a hand. In order to flick away the energy beam, the Holy Right had to move.

In doing so, it ceased to be shielding Fiamma.

That such a fact did not matter, because when it stopped defending Fiamma, it launched an attack that destroyed both the laser beam _and it's source at the same time._

If you're going to continue arguing with me, then make your point. Because right now, all you're doing is saying "you're wrong you're wrong reading comprehension"

I've already made it perfectly clear, I just don't know how I can make it easier for you to understand, Greed.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Regicide said:


> I find this a preferable outcome than what occurred with the FCK versus Servants thread, at least.



Quintuple Digit Mach Janitors


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 25, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Because I established that for that particular passage, Fiamma _was_ the Narrator? Or at the very least, we were seeing that scene entirely from Fiamma's perspective.




Fiamma doesn't refer to himself as "he". Show me another quote where he does so if you really want to try and push for this.

He calls himself Ore-sama because he believes he is greater than everyone else. It's an intentionally arrogant way that to refer to himself.

If he called himself "he", Fiamma would just make himself look like a dumbfuck.

It's pretty obvious that Fiamma is not the narrator in that quote.

You also completely ignored what I said about the FCK and why he is accepted to have all mibu techniques.




> Let's see that MS paint of yours, then.
> 
> I just clearly demonstrated the physical limitations of a hand. In order to flick away the energy beam, the Holy Right had to move.
> 
> ...



I'm going to have to find a decent ms paint equivalent for Ubuntu now....


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Quintuple Digit Mach Janitors


Legit beyond legit.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Fiamma doesn't refer to himself as "he". Show me another quote where he does so if you really want to try and push for this.
> 
> He calls himself Ore-sama because he believes he is greater than everyone else. It's an intentionally arrogant way that to refer to himself.
> 
> ...



Of course I ignored it. You're accusing me of a false double standard. I don't particularly care about the veracity of that claim, thats up to you and CK to hash out.

On the other hand, the means by which you're accusing me of holding a double standard is via my dismissal of a claim made from Fiamma's knowledge set.

It's Third Person Limited. It's the Narrative Mode Kamachi uses for the entirety of the Index series. Look it up. That passage is a textbook example of it, there's nothing omniscient about it.





> I'm going to have to find a decent ms paint equivalent for Ubuntu now....



I like how all I had to do was have you open and close your hand to make my point clear.

Calling it now:

There are going to be precise angles drawn into it, along with "obvious" invisible shields. Or maybe a second Holy Right for some reason.


----------



## Basilikos (Aug 25, 2013)

Othinus said:


> someone can correct me, but I don't remember petrification resistance feats. I'm not sure how shadow bfr works, but candle room is basically soulfuck, so that won't work.


Actually, the candles in the candle dimension represent a person's life force, not their soul.



Othinus said:


> Point 2: FCK doesn't have Saisei's dimensional gate as a standard ability. He could get it, but it'll require an unknown amount of prep.


Uh, what?  It was a technique used by one of the FCK's Mibu underlings.  So of course he can perform the technique.  No prep necessary.



Othinus said:


> > is ok with the incredibly similar _character_ statement by FCK that he can use all Mibu abilities when he hasn't shown _any_ of them.





Othinus said:


> In which case....
> 
> Do you know why everyone assumes that the FCK can use every Mibu tech?
> 
> ...


Simply false.  The FCK demonstrated quite a few Mibu techniques including Suzaku, Byakko, Seiryu, Genbu, Kouryu, Satori, Sekireigan, and gravity manipulation.  Demanding that he should have shown all of them is absurd considering the huge number of techniques shown by various Mibu warriors during the story.

The fact of the matter is that his statement alone would be sufficient, but even more than that we also get to see him use some of the Mibu techs he claims to know.  Shit, we see him use Sekireigan as an example in the very same chapter in which he makes the assertion.  That said, your skepticism is just baseless here.



Crimson King said:


> My god people it's simple logic.
> 
> here
> 
> ...


This.

Also, when Saisei first used the ability, she closed her eyes and remained motionless to let Akira strike her wherever he wanted.  And we know that Saisei doesn't have any kind of mind reading or precog ability to know in advance where Akira would strike.  This action on her part implies that the reverse dimensional gate is not limited to a small area, but in fact covers the users entire body.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 25, 2013)

TehChron said:


> It's Third Person Limited. It's the Narrative Mode Kamachi uses for the entirety of the Index series. Look it up. That passage is a textbook example of it, there's nothing omniscient about it.




Uh, no, Kamachi usually uses omniscient narration.



> A bluish-white beam of light appeared coming from below and heading up as if to stab into the heavens. It shot straight through the center of that 20 kilometer radius circle.
> 
> Immediately afterwards, a third of Radiosonde Castle was utterly annihilated.



Unless you want to claim that the above is also third person limited, which would just make you look silly.

And again, I'd like to see proof of Fiamma referring to himself as "he".

Because both quotes where it was stated he could destroy the planet were obvious cases of omniscient narration.

In fact, Kamachi rarely, if ever uses third person limited. He either explains through his characters by making the characters give an explanation via a character statement, or uses an omniscient narrator.

You've never had a problem with his planet busting before, and iirc, have mentioned it in versus matches before. So I'm not sure if your seriously pushing for this because you believe it, or trying to prove your a better debater by pushing for a point that is obviously wrong.





> There are going to be precise angles drawn into it, along with "obvious" invisible shields. Or maybe a second Holy Right for some reason.




You have to be kidding me.




Basilikos said:


> Actually, the candles in the candle dimension represent a person's life force, not their soul.



A life force is generally someone's soul.....




> Simply false.  The FCK demonstrated quite a few Mibu techniques including Suzaku, Byakko, Seiryu, Genbu, Kouryu, Satori, Sekireigan, and gravity manipulation.  Demanding that he should have shown all of them is absurd considering the huge number of techniques shown by various Mibu warriors during the story.



I already listed those. When I said Kyo's techniques I was referring to Suzaku, Byakko, Seiryu, Genbu, and Kouryu. I did forget gravity manipulation though....



> The fact of the matter is that his statement alone would be sufficient, but even more than that we also get to see him use some of the Mibu techs he claims to know.  Shit, we see him use Sekireigan as an example in the very same chapter in which he makes the assertion.  That said, your skepticism is just baseless here.



When did I say he didn't have them....?

Because if you think that was my point, your way off. I was saying that tehcron accepts the fact that the FCK can use hundreds of techniques despite the fact he has only shown 7 or so even though the fact that he can use hundreds is based off a character statement, which I don't have much of a problem with. 

But he disregards Fiamma's planet busting ability with a perfect holy right, when it was stated twice by the narrarator that he could easily do so. Especially when powerscaling puts him at an even higher level than that because he's stronger than gabriel.


My point was basically that I don't like double standards.


----------



## Basilikos (Aug 25, 2013)

Othinus said:


> A life force is generally someone's soul.....


Since when?



> I already listed those. When I said Kyo's techniques I was referring to Suzaku, Byakko, Seiryu, Genbu, and Kouryu. I did forget gravity manipulation though....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair enough.


----------



## ikoke (Aug 25, 2013)

To be honest,i always thought that blowing out the candles in the candle Room is similar in effect to the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception(less potent than MEoDP,but with larger targetpool). It's not exactly soulfuck.


----------



## lokoxDZz (Aug 25, 2013)

Othinus said:


> A life force is generally someone's soul.....




Not really,Life force is generally someone's physical body related,life force isn't direct related to Soul,but it can be affect by attacking someone soul,but only apply to someone body/physical body,its ernegy that someone has in their bodies. At least is how it seems to me


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 25, 2013)

I've always been under the impression that someone's "life" or "lifeforce" was their soul.


----------



## Shiorin (Aug 25, 2013)

Othinus said:


> I've always been under the impression that someone's "life" or "lifeforce" was their soul.


Not all verses make that connection. In Harry Potter verse for example getting your soul sucked out doesn't explicitly kill you.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 25, 2013)

So basically, it depends on the verse? Ok.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Well, thanks to you, Greed, I just spent a great deal of time hunting down this "hypocrisy post" you claimed I have.

It doesnt exist.

I know youre desperate to be right, but theres no need to out and out make up shit. It robs you of any credibility.

You and your poisoning the well fallacies


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

We're still having this pissing match, I see.


----------



## Basilikos (Aug 25, 2013)

^Welcome to the OBD?


----------



## Crimson King (Aug 25, 2013)

Another win for FCK


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

That's fine, Majora can still solo the verse.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Making a faulty call out in the middle of a pissing match you started is supposed to blow up in your face.

At any rate, I'm just glad I could help keep the misinformed in check 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Looking forward to seeing that "resident series expert" title next to my name on the ToAru page


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Looking forward to seeing that "resident series expert" title next to my name on the ToAru page


I'll get right on that. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Probably never.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

It's fine. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



I'll just bookmark this thread for the next time Greed becomes uppity on ToAru


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

You seem fixated on proving Greed wrong all the time, Chron.

Don't tell me you're a tsundere.


----------



## Crimson King (Aug 25, 2013)

Regicide said:


> That's fine, Majora can still solo the verse.



That's some hate boner you got there


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Regicide said:


> You seem fixated on proving Greed wrong all the time, Chron.
> 
> Don't tell me you're a tsundere.



We ToAru fans need to stick together.

Its such a shame that some of us need to be taught the pecking order, though


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> That's some hate boner you got there


Nah, I don't really give a shit. 

You win some, you lose some. It's all debates about fictional powerlevels in the end anyways.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Until someone brings character attacks into the equation.

And thats when the dick-waving starts.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

Doesn't that describe every thread in the OBD?


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Your point being?


----------



## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

Since when were you under the impression that I had a point?


----------



## TehChron (Aug 25, 2013)

Touche


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 26, 2013)

Tehchron, still waiting for your response to my post 




Regicide said:


> You seem fixated on proving Greed wrong all the time, Chron.
> 
> Don't tell me you're a tsundere.



Oh god no. Please, I don't want one of those.


----------



## Basilikos (Aug 26, 2013)

Time to ship Greedo X TehChron.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

The OTP of the century.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 26, 2013)

Noooooooooooooooooooo!


I hate you guys


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

Accept the OTP, Greed. 

Resistance is futile.


----------



## Shiorin (Aug 26, 2013)

I just came back to this thread and wtf.


----------



## Nevermind (Aug 26, 2013)

It's SDK. All SDK threads contain massive amounts of autism.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 26, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Tehchron, still waiting for your response to my post



Well...

_Since you insist_



> Uh, no, Kamachi usually uses omniscient narration.
> 
> Quote:
> A bluish-white beam of light appeared coming from below and heading up as if to stab into the heavens. It shot straight through the center of that 20 kilometer radius circle.
> ...



Setting aside the fact you _hilariously_ left all that out of its proper context, I _guess_ it looks like it might not be Third Person Limited.



> (There are legends of swords slicing through lightning in Japan. In a country with such harsh changes in the weather, you cannot name yourself a magician if you do not have an understanding of how to deal with a thunder god!!)
> That was what magic was.
> It exceeded the laws of physics and brought one to an absurd battlefield.
> If she messed up the timing of her attack, she would receive the attack head on, so she could not let her guard down, but she could deal with spells of that level.
> ...



But then you take a look at the rest of the passage and realize you don't know what you're talking about. 

Well.

Not that that's very surprising at this point. 



> In fact, Kamachi rarely, if ever uses third person limited. He either explains through his characters by making the characters give an explanation via a character statement, or uses an omniscient narrator.
> 
> You've never had a problem with his planet busting before, and iirc, have mentioned it in versus matches before. So I'm not sure if your seriously pushing for this because you believe it, or trying to prove your a better debater by pushing for a point that is obviously wrong.



This seems so much funnier in hindsight.



> When did I say he didn't have them....?
> 
> Because if you think that was my point, your way off. I was saying that tehcron accepts the fact that the FCK can use hundreds of techniques despite the fact he has only shown 7 or so even though the fact that he can use hundreds is based off a character statement, which I don't have much of a problem with.
> 
> ...



And I guess if that was your point, this firmly establishes that you never had one to begin with.

Aside from maybe wanking Fiamma of the Right, which thankfully has been put to a stop.

Its not like your character attacks were able to stick, after all. 



> Time to ship Greedo X TehChron.



Now let me make just one thing clear:


*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm the top


----------



## Basilikos (Aug 26, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Now let me make just one thing clear:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Legit beyond legit.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 26, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Well...
> 
> _Since you insist_
> 
> ...




So your claiming that whole passage was in third person limited...lol



Here, let me break that whole thing you quoted down for you:





> Kanzaki's thoughts said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> But then you take a look at the rest of the passage and realize you don't know what you're talking about.



Yea, I just broke it down for you, and it makes it pretty obvious your wrong.



> Well.
> 
> 
> Not that that's very surprising at this point.



Someone has an attitude.




> Aside from maybe wanking Fiamma of the Right, which thankfully has been put to a stop.



Wanking? No.

I believe what the passage tells me. Occam's razor is seriously on my side right now.

My argument > Fiamma is a planet buster because the passage and narrator says he is.

Your argument > Fiamma is not a planet buster. The passage refers to Fiamma as he, but fiamma is known to refer to himself in the third person as "the great me". Because he refers to himself as "the great me", we should automatically disregard this because it is possible third person limited narraration. 


Also, quick japanese lesson for you.

Japanese is hard to translate directly into english.

The Japanese pronoun "Ore" just means "me" or "I", meaning it could literally mean either depending on the sentence it is used in. Sama is just an honerific, which is usually used to refer to someone in a high regard or to show someone great respect.

Hilariously, almost your whole argument comes from the fact that Fiamma refers to himself in the third person. Funny thing is, both "me" and "I" are first person, while "he" is third person. To break it down for you, when Fiamma calls himself "ore-sama", he's just overconfidently calling himself "I" or "Me".

What I'm trying to get at is that there is a big difference between Fiamma calling himself "ore-sama" or "I/Me" and calling himself "he".

Which makes it pretty clear that this is omniscient narration. In fact, almost the whole series is this way. It's actually one of the few light novels narrated this way.



> Now let me make just one thing clear:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I seriously hate you.


----------



## Xam (Aug 26, 2013)

>This thread is still going
>Thinking Fiamma is not planetbuster
>Me: I'm going to get in on this
>Arguing over fucking Language arts and shit
>oh hell no.




Regicide said:


> The OTP of the century.


You think too small Regi, OTP of the Millennium at least.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

Xam pls.

That would be HomuSaya.


----------



## Xam (Aug 26, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Xam pls.
> 
> That would be HomuSaya.




HomuSaya isn't a OBD Ship.
It's a Puella Ship.


----------



## Neruc (Aug 26, 2013)

Xam don't laugh at the OTP,or I will mention you being shipped with Sausy


----------



## Xam (Aug 26, 2013)

Neruc said:


> Xam don't laugh at the OTP,or I will mention you being shipped with Sausy


Fan x Neru OTP 
Neru x His BL Harem


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> HomuSaya isn't a OBD Ship.
> It's a Puella Ship.


Point taken.


----------



## Neruc (Aug 26, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Fan x Neru OTP
> Neru x His BL Harem



Don't you dare 
Its obvious you cant tell the difference between a bromance and a ship 

Also screw Madara and Viper


----------



## TehChron (Aug 26, 2013)

Othinus said:


> So your claiming that whole passage was in third person limited...lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Greed, all you just did was argue that the narration shifts into third person.

Which isnt much of a surprise, considering _the Narrative Mode is called Third Person Limited_.

The point of Third Person limited is that it is, inherently, not omniscient. Meaning its a third person narrative based on the knowledge which the individuals focused on in the narrative possess.

I mean, seriously, you're arguing that a writing style randomly shifts between paragraphs in an individual passage without any sort of break or warning or whatever, when that simply isn't the case.

Occlam's razor is that the simplest explanation is the most correct one, in a nutshell. And Occlam's razor is that if it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then _it's Third Person Limited._

Give it a rest.

You're the bottom in this relationship, it's already been decided


----------



## Xam (Aug 26, 2013)

Neruc said:


> Don't you dare
> Its obvious you cant tell the difference between a bromance and a ship
> 
> Also screw Madara and Viper


Don't push me off the edge then. 

I'm in *your* words "in a bromance with everybro on MF", and in my words have shitloads of ships, pretty sure I know the difference. 

lelelel, go blame them. 


TehChron said:


> Occlam's razor is that the simplest explanation is the most correct one, in a nutshell. And Occlam's razor is that if it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then _it's Third Person Limited._


Mind=Blown
and here I thought it was a duck and not Third Person Limited if it looked, acted and quacked like a duck.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 26, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Don't push me off the edge then.
> 
> I'm in *your* words "in a bromance with everybro on MF", and in my words have shitloads of ships, pretty sure I know the difference.
> 
> ...



Logic is a scary thing sometimes


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

Perhaps we should ask js06 on this matter.


----------



## Xam (Aug 26, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Perhaps we should ask js06 on this matter.


Lets.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 26, 2013)

Ask him what?

And doesnt he have a shit ton of other projects hes translating?

I really dont want to delay my enjoyment of other series just to continue making a fool out of Greed


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

If he has time to post on /a/, he has time to answer a question.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 26, 2013)

Oh, fair point.

I'm glad I dont go there.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 26, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Greed, all you just did was argue that the narration shifts into third person.
> 
> Which isnt much of a surprise, considering _the Narrative Mode is called Third Person Limited_.
> 
> ...



I never even implied that the narration shifts. Not a single time.

We had an instance where Kanzaki was obviously thinking which in toaru is generally put in a ().

We also had a character statement from Kanzaki. 

At best, you could argue for third person Omniscient, which is still a form of omniscient narration. 

Now, dismissing something because how it was stated was in third person limited is stupid to begin with. You would have to dismiss every feat in the novel, because according to you, the whole novel is written in third person limited (which it isn't). And doing so would be fucking retarded.

It was obvious that the author intended for Fiamma to be a planet buster, and we should accept him such.

Hell, Gabriel was stated to be weaker than Fiamma and she can destroy stars.

I don't know why you decided you suddenly have a problem with Fiamma being planet level, but your being kind of ridiculous.

You seem to be the only one with any sort of problem with it.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 26, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Perhaps we should ask js06 on this matter.



That would make this so much easier.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

I'll ask next time I see him post.


----------



## Neruc (Aug 26, 2013)

This thread stopped being Fiamma vs FCK,instead its Othinus vs TehChron now


----------



## TehChron (Aug 26, 2013)

Othinus said:


> I never even implied that the narration shifts. Not a single time.
> 
> We had an instance where Kanzaki was obviously thinking which in toaru is generally put in a ().
> 
> ...



You're so stupid, Greedo-kun

The most telling sign of whether or not an author is using omniscient narration is whether or not all possible information is presented.

In the Fiamma passage, it's made clear that we don't know anything about what was going on with Touma outside of what Fiamma heard him saying.

In the Radiosonde Castle passage, we never hear or are given any sort of information on Mjolnir's thoughts on the situation are, outside of when she speaks with Kanzaki directly.

Prove the narration is truly omniscient.



> It was obvious that the author intended for Fiamma to be a planet buster, and we should accept him such.
> 
> Hell, Gabriel was stated to be weaker than Fiamma and she can destroy stars.



Really? Provide Author statements attesting to these assumptions of yours.

You need to stop confusing fanfiction with authors intent, Greedo-kun.



> I don't know why you decided you suddenly have a problem with Fiamma being planet level, but your being kind of ridiculous.



I'm being right. Too bad for you. 

If you're going to keep on insisting that I've ever held a different opinion from the one I currently have, by all means, prove it.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 26, 2013)

Neruc said:


> This thread stopped being Fiamma vs FCK,instead its Othinus vs TehChron now



No matter which of us wins, both your brain cells and Greedo's asshole lose.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 26, 2013)

Flaming and baiting now? Your frustration is showing.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

TehChron said:


> I'm glad I dont go there.


Meh.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 26, 2013)

This thread seriously went in a shitty direction though. Was hoping it would turn out better than the last FCK vs toaru thread.


----------



## teddy (Aug 26, 2013)

It would be an sdk/toaru thread for it to have a shipping phase

i'm prepared for the future now


----------



## TehChron (Aug 26, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Flaming and baiting now? Your frustration is showing.



Oooooh.

I know what this is, it's called selective memory!

You appear to have completely forgotten _your posts in the last three pages of this thread._ Clearly. There's just no other way you'd accuse someone else of being rustled. ck


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 26, 2013)

Yea, nope, pretty sure I never flamed you.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 26, 2013)

Othinus said:


> This thread seriously went in a shitty direction though. Was hoping it would turn out better than the last FCK vs toaru thread.



As if you had nothing to do with it


----------



## teddy (Aug 26, 2013)

Get a room


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

TehChron said:


> You're the bottom in this relationship, it's already been decided


Tsunderes can't be dominant, Chron.


----------



## Neruc (Aug 26, 2013)

? said:


> Get a room



This IS their room


----------



## Xam (Aug 26, 2013)

Neruc said:


> This IS their room



Then why are we still here.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

popcornandchips.jpg


----------



## TehChron (Aug 26, 2013)

> You don't get what I'm saying. He was still engulfed by the light when he blew away the satellite.
> 
> What your saying is that he stopped his defense in order to throw out an attack on the satellite. Rather than attacking the satellite and defending against the light coming from the satellite at the same time. Which wouldn't make sense, since if he did the former and stopped his defense to attack the satellite above, the instant he did so, he would have been burned by the light that was still surrounding him.
> 
> Seriously, don't make me make a MS paint drawing or some shit to make you understand this





> I seriously hate you.





Oh your poor jimmies


----------



## Neruc (Aug 26, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Then why are we still here.



Its very entertaining


----------



## TehChron (Aug 26, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Tsunderes can't be dominant, Chron.



What're you talking about?

If anyone here's a tsundere, its clearly Greed


----------



## Xam (Aug 26, 2013)

Neruc said:


> Its very entertaining



True that.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

Seems legit.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

js06 said:
			
		

> Reading it now, but I probably won't have time to start translating until this evening.


Actually, scratch that.

He's working on NT8 right now. I'll just do it later.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 26, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Actually, scratch that.
> 
> He's working on NT8 right now. I'll just do it later.





> Ask him what?
> 
> And doesnt he have a shit ton of other projects hes translating?
> 
> I really dont want to delay my enjoyment of other series just to continue making a fool out of Greed



Called it?

Called it.

Also, what would you be translating?


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

In retrospect, this probably wasn't the greatest time.

Given that we have the new Railgun chapter and the first chapter of NT8, plus a bunch of other shit that comes out this week.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 26, 2013)

This new Railgun chapter should be a great one.

And based on how NT7 went, NT8 could really wind up going any direction, Im really looking forward to when hes done translating them


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

TehChron said:


> This new Railgun chapter should be a great one.


It has Misaki being dere with Touma.

Instantly chapter of the year, all years.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 26, 2013)

Regicide said:


> It has Misaki being dere with Touma.
> 
> Instantly chapter of the year, all years.



To be honest, I was expecting more Kihara shenanigans


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

Just so you and Greed know, I'm staying out of your clusterfuck.


----------



## Gundam Meister (Aug 26, 2013)

That still dosnt debunk Planet level La Persona Superiore a Dio Fiamma and i think its better too make meta dome thread so see what everyone think about this issue


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

Gundam Meister said:


> That still dosnt debunk Planet level La Persona Superiore a Dio Fiamma


I agree, but I felt that the resulting argument would probably be too amusing to pass up.

So I asked anyways.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

In other news, js06 just finished translating the first two parts of chapter 1.

I'm already hyped as fuck.


----------



## Gundam Meister (Aug 26, 2013)

Also being told in Third Person Limited dosnt any sense considering the way the serie it written  greatly resembles Third Person omniscient more


----------



## Regicide (Aug 26, 2013)

Are you doubting the words of our lord and savior?


----------



## Gundam Meister (Aug 26, 2013)

I'm just saying that writing resembles Third Person omniscient more than Third Person Limited I'm not doubting  js06 maybe the series is written in a combination of both


----------



## TehChron (Aug 27, 2013)

If you're so certain, then establish that the Fiamma's Planet-level assumed blast was an example of third person omniscient.

Setting that aside, the reason why Third Person Limited matters is because Kamachi spends nearly half of Volume 22 explaining via the cast that Fiamma _had almost no idea what the hell he was doing with his grand plan._

Birdway dissected Fiamma's summoning of the Telesma Arms as an answer to resource scarcity.

Touma openly made fun of Fiamma's reasonings for why the Plan was necessary.

Crowley mocked Fiamma's choice of Aeon to base his plan on.

And everyone else had their own little commentary on their observations of why Fiamma was out and out mistaken. Not to mention how badly he miscalculated on what Imagine Breaker was for.

_He saw it only as a missing piece to complete his Holy Right._ When in fact, it was much, much more than that. 

Essentially, since _Fiamma was an unreliable source of information_, and the Third Person Limited narration of that passage was clearly based on his perspective, _then that means that whether or not that blast he sent at Touma could truly destroy a planet is entirely up to speculation._

Implication being?

It can't be used as a feat.

And now to wait for Greedo.


----------



## Saitomaru (Aug 27, 2013)

Okay so I've been reading the back and forth and just wanted to make sure I understood both sides correctly.

TehChron, you're saying that because Fiamma's plan had all sorts of holes, miscalculations, etc he is all-in-all unreliable as far as information goes and because of this the passage (which you're saying is not omniscient) can't be taken at face value. Did I get that right?

Othinus/Greed, you're saying that because of the way that Fiamma is referred to in that passage does not fall in line with his normal speech patterns, that it isn't third-person limited and is instead third-person omniscient. Right?

TehChron, would Fiamma being a shit planner really eliminate his credibility as far as judging the power of his own attack?

Othinus/Greed, is there anything else backing your side other than something that others might dismiss as a writer inconsistency?

I'm not arguing for either side, just trying to get some information from both sides so I can further my understanding of this thread.

EDIT: TehChron, not only is your img link messed up it is also ridiculously long (hurr that's what she said. There, I beat you to it.). Was this on purpose?


----------



## TehChron (Aug 27, 2013)

Replaced it with a similar image.

Anywho:

What I'm saying isnt that Fiamma was a shit planner. All things being considered, he was a pretty decent one to even pull off the Star of Bethlehem to begin with.

What I'm saying is that Fiamma was fatally ignorant of many fundamental elements that he based his plan on. He didn't seem to grasp that using Telesma as a source for material was fundamentally stupid, since no one had any means to utilize them for anything.

His fundamental reasoning for even going that far to begin with was based in his own total ignorance of the world, as indicated by Touma's speech at the end of their fight.

Fiamma also wrongly assumed that Imagine Breaker was nothing more than a missing component for his Holy Right. And this is an assumption he repeats time, and time, and time again. As was later shown, Imagine Breaker was much, much more than the power to negate supernatural phenomenon. And is also something Crowley mocks him for.

What I'm saying isn't that Fiamma's plans failing so badly makes him an unreliable source of information.

That he demonstrably had his head firmly lodged up his ass, however, does.


----------



## Saitomaru (Aug 27, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Replaced it with a similar image.
> 
> Anywho:
> 
> ...



See this is why I asked, I had the wrong impression of what you were trying to say. Okay, with this new information I'll change my question. 

Would Fiamma's ignorance regarding other things (the things you mentioned) really be grounds to declare a statement on his attack's strength (assuming the passage was third-person limited) couldn't be trusted? I ask because while I see your point, I also could see where someone might claim that they may not be related.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 27, 2013)

Well, that was more of a basic summary of big stuff he gets wrong.

But there are quotes of him outright saying that his Holy Right isnt using the correct settings on Touma when he fights him. So this kind of implies that _Fiamma doesn't know exactly how strong the attacks from the Holy Right are himself._

All he knows is that it does whatever needs doing. Except in the case of, say, Touma, and the Thing in his Right Arm.

So there are three big reasons to doubt the credibility of that claim:

1) Third Person Limited means that it wasnt a literal author statement, given the nature of the Narrative Mode used.

2) Fiamma himself didnt input the value for attacking Touma into the Holy Right, which is based on his previous statements for why Touma was able to defend against it earlier in the fight.

3) Fiamma himself has his head up his ass, so its not like he knows what hes talking about in the first place.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 27, 2013)

Here's the passage in question, from Volume 22, Chapter 9, Part 2:



> *“Did you forget what I announced back in the Elizalina Alliance? My right arm responds to the need, matches to the level of trials and tribulations, and uses the most suitable output. Whether it is an optical weapon or whatever else, nothing can stand up to me.”*
> (This isn’t normal.)
> It was beyond playing rock-paper-scissors against someone who got to choose after you had shown your hand. Simply put, Fiamma was almighty. Whether you used rock, paper, or scissors, Fiamma would just use “win”. It did not matter what shape his fingers made. At the point that he made the challenge, he had already won.
> That was why Fiamma did not need the things that were usually necessary.
> ...



The bolded sections are what I'm referring to. Fiamma clearly explains that his Holy Right determines the attack to use against the target, and he then states that his Holy Right can not seem to determine a correct attack to use against Touma.

On a side note: This passage uses Third Person Limited centered on Touma and his perspective, whereas the "Planet-Busting" passage is Third Person Limited centered on Fiamma. That this information was conveyed to us, the readers, via Fiamma's verbal explanation rather than an impersonal narration is indication of that.


----------



## Saitomaru (Aug 27, 2013)

I'll read over what you typed tomorrow when I'm not falling asleep at my desk.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 27, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Here's the passage in question, from Volume 22, Chapter 9, Part 2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The reason why the holy right can't adjust it's power against Touma should be obvious. It screws with the supernatural.





Saitomaru said:


> Othinus/Greed, you're saying that because of the way that Fiamma is referred to in that passage does not fall in line with his normal speech patterns, that it isn't third-person limited and is instead third-person omniscient. Right?



Yes.



> Othinus/Greed, is there anything else backing your side other than something that others might dismiss as a writer inconsistency?



General powerscaling from Gabriel, who moved thousands of stars and was stated to be able to destroy them.

Not seeing how someone with the one above god title, who is supposed to be one of the strongest characters in the series, would be weaker than an angel, especially by that much.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 27, 2013)

Who cares what the reason is? Yet again, Greedo, your poor reading comprehension causes you to miss the point


----------



## Lord Raizen (Aug 27, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Is the wiki profile outdated? I'm only seeing FCK at City Level at full power even with the Red Cross Knights
> 
> Don't see how Full Power FCK has much chance here unless the Wiki profile is super outdated..I really should get to reading SDK



The FCK's city level feat was performed as he was dying, after he had finished fighting the entirity of the main cast, including Full power Kyo. It was stated that he was practically drained of all his energy before hand, meaning the feat was performed with an extremely small fraction of his true power.



Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Fiamma would be alive if as a statue, FCK wouldn't be.
> 
> Sides, can FCK even get the petrification off before he gets a relativistic chicken claw to the face?



Actually, the true Medusa eyes turn you to dust after petrification. And they only need to look upon thier target, so speed is irrelevent as long as the eye is revealed to the FCK's opponent.




Crimson Dragoon said:


> I wouldn't say he has them, unless he has like prep to use his resources and implant them into himself




That was the point of the FCK's original statment, which is that he's already canonly gone through the preparation in order to have all of the abilities of his subjects.




Othinus said:


> Also, isn't it impossible to turn off? if the FCK had it as a standard ability he would have just redirected everyone's (especially a lot of Kyo's) attacks.



No it's not impossible to turn off. And you cannot use the fact that the FCK didn't apply an ability in battle to suppor the notion that he didn't have the ability.



Othinus said:


> Also, with yukimura, it was more like Anri just touched Yukimura's face, and yuki got sekireigan. It had nothing to do with training.



I find it so humorous that people find ways to doubt the FCK's abilities. Even beyond the points that CK and others brought up, there are so many things that suggest just how easy it likely was for the FCK to attain the abilities. Even if gaining some abilities did require prep, the prep was already done by the time we meet him. The man said he knows all the abilities. Not just sword techniques, not even just combat specific abilties, but all of them. If any of the Mibu can do it, so can he.

- Anri can implant an eye based power into Yukimura with the mere touch and glow of his hand.

- Hishigi, while dying, was able to will his physical heart into Fubuki's body with no problem. No reason to think transfering a Medusa eye would be any more difficult, especially for the King. And that's just one of the many ways he could've gone about attaining it.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 27, 2013)

For the record, Im sure were all agreeing that this thread has ended in my and the FCK's victory


----------



## Crimson King (Aug 27, 2013)

thread ended when I posted


----------



## TehChron (Aug 28, 2013)

This is true


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 28, 2013)

TehChron said:


> For the record, Im sure were all agreeing that this thread has ended in my and the FCK's victory



Hardly your win if nobody agrees with you about Fiamma's planet busting.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 28, 2013)

All arguments to the contrary were completely refuted.

If you have a solid feat of Fiamma to justify tgat scaling, then go ahead and present it.

But since such a thing likely doesnt exist, at this point, there is no other way to describe this pissing contest then my win


----------



## RedSurvivor (Aug 28, 2013)

> ??Why?? Fiamma muttered. ?I could not do it. I should have had the power needed to save this world just like the Son of God. And yet I could not do it.?
> 
> ?It was not an issue of the type or amount of power. It was nothing more than an issue of how you used it,? Aleister Crowley said in disinterested voice. ?My theory is that the age of Christian spells came to an end upon the completion of the Book of the Law. I actually think you did quite well. And that includes your objective of becoming The One Above God. If instead of the Aeon of Osiris?that is, the laws under the control of solely the Christian Church, you had formatted it in the Aeon of Horus that lies beyond it, you may have had your eye on a position similar to mine.?



Seems to indicate Fiamma had a raw amount of power similar to Crowley, he just couldn't use it properly. At the very least it should place him > Archangels since he achieved his goal of becoming "The One Above God".

Tis only a statement from Crowley though, not a solid feat.

Now, my post count is only in the double digits, so I'll scamper before I get killed.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 28, 2013)

Not really, since Crowley never says anything like him being currently equatable. Just that Fiamma might have been, had he used the right method.

But he didnt 

On the other hand, scampering is probably tbe right choice


----------



## RedSurvivor (Aug 28, 2013)

Wasn't saying they were anywhere near equal, it's made clear by Crowley that he's above LSPD Fiamma. My interpretation of those lines was that Fiamma had the bulk but not the skill or knowledge to use it to it's full potential. This is somewhat supported by the Accelerator vs. Aiwass fight, in which their wings clashing was described as a clumsy club-user vs. a master swordsman, because of the difference in Aeon. Plus, Crowley probably wouldn't have congratulated Fiamma on coming so close to "The One Above God" (or actually reaching it, if Toaru God is that weak) if he wasn't at least equal to Archangels.

I've read the novels but I wouldn't really consider myself an expert on this stuff, so my interpretation probably needs alot of work. If you guys could clarify it further i'd appreciate it.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 28, 2013)

Crowley wasnt congratulating him.

He was furious and had gone there to kill him off.

The only things Crowley cared about were the elements being realigned, Fiamma forcing the reveal of the Thing in Toumas right arm. And the effect that had on Toumas development and therefore Crowleys plan.

You dont congratulate someone indifferently. Not seriously.

Crowley was mocking Fiamma before killing him. The monologuing was just Crowley venting between the two of them


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 28, 2013)

TehChron said:


> All arguments to the contrary were completely refuted.



Not really,. You didn't even seem to understand a lot of my arguments. I'm just tired debating with you when it's like debating with a brick wall. When everyone has a different opinion than you, you should realize you are wrong.



> there is no other way to describe this pissing contest then my win



Hardly.

Call it what you want, but your the only one who believes that Fiamma is not a planet buster. You can believe what you want, but I have a feeling everyone else will still accept him being a planet buster.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 28, 2013)

If you have more arguments, line them up so I can knock them down.

Appeals to popularity aside, Ive pretty clearly demonstrated a superior grasp of the material. Which is why I've taken this position: 

Because its the right one.

Im willing to keep this up until you have no choice but to accept it.

So then, bring on those arguments already


----------



## lokoxDZz (Aug 28, 2013)

Reading all this thing i say TehChron ignoring some arguments or at least don't understanding some of them and trying to push forward without reason,also i still don't know why if Fiamma is planet+. Gabriel is only island+ (star+ with astral hand) and crowley continent when both are stronger than him,and both Ollerus and Othinus island+ when them are more powerfull than acc(correct me if i'm wrong)

still thinks Fiamma takes FCK


----------



## TehChron (Aug 28, 2013)

Ive gone out of my way to address all arguments presented, if youre saying there are ones I dont understand, repeat them

Its not like Ive been ignoring arguments or quoting passages out of context to support my case like you guys have Its


----------



## Regicide (Aug 28, 2013)

lokoxDZz said:


> Reading all this thing i say TehChron ignoring some arguments or at least don't understanding some of them and trying to push forward without reason,also i still don't know why if Fiamma is planet+. Gabriel is only island+ (star+ with astral hand) and crowley continent when both are stronger than him,and both Ollerus and Othinus island+ when them are more powerfull than acc(correct me if i'm wrong)
> 
> still thinks Fiamma takes FCK


Because quite frankly, I haven't gotten around to updating all the profiles out of laziness. Since whenever I get to that, more often than not I tend to end up rewriting a bunch of shit, as opposed to simply editing a few stats due to how out of date or inaccurate a lot of these are.

To answer your question about Ollerus and Othinus, they get island level+ from powerscaling from Misha.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 28, 2013)

I mean, hell, if I can go back through my post history to double check the validity of Greed's pouty little "double standards" argument, Id at least expect you all, in all your "rightness", to put up more of a fight h


----------



## lokoxDZz (Aug 28, 2013)

How should i put it,i"m lurking this post since the beginning,but when started the discussion most of i see is countering most of time with the same argument when its already done,what i'm saying is that i see you changing words but pushing the last meaning forward,but whatever.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 28, 2013)

So youre faulting me for not having changed my position on this subject?


----------



## OS (Aug 28, 2013)

The arguing in this thread is giving me cancer. Literally worse than youtube.

Also

>using a passage where Fiammas arm can't work well against Imagine breaker
>saying it's a fluke of the power
>not that it's just imagine breaker being a nuisance.

Cancer.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 28, 2013)

You're certainly one to speak.


----------



## OS (Aug 28, 2013)

Cancer recognizes cancer.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 29, 2013)

Original Sin said:


> The arguing in this thread is giving me cancer. Literally worse than youtube.
> 
> Also
> 
> ...



Oh? Where was that said?


----------



## OS (Aug 29, 2013)

Last page. 2 days ago.

I won't debate though. This whole thread is just as bad as the last FCK thread and CK was in the whole thing.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 29, 2013)

Odd.

I used that passage as an example of something completely different


----------



## Basilikos (Aug 29, 2013)

Original Sin said:


> Last page. 2 days ago.
> 
> I won't debate though. This whole thread is just as bad as the last FCK thread and CK was in the whole thing.


You and CK not on good terms or something?


----------



## MAPSK (Aug 29, 2013)

>Implying Fiamma isn't a planet buster in LPSAD form when Gabriel can casually move planets and stars
>Implying Accelerator has a higher raw damage output than Fiamma
>Implying the Holy Right isn't able to attack and defend at the same time
>Implying a narrative statement of any kind shouldn't take precedence over an obvious character statement that was never fully demonstrated as it was claimed

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Jf3jLCDhHY[/YOUTUBE]

I leave for a week and somehow, even in my absence, things have gotten even more cancerious. Never change, cancerdome. Never change. But seriously, the autism in this thread is ridiculous. When you've resorted to abusing the nuances of an author's writing style to support your argument, you are obviously standing on very thin fucking ice.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 29, 2013)

Oh boy, here we go.


----------



## MAPSK (Aug 29, 2013)

Oh no, I don't intend to start anything. In case there are some people who haven't realized it yet, I stopped giving a shit a long time ago. I'm just here for the calcs and the vile amusement these threads provide me with. I just thought I'd drop by and laugh at TehChron for a while. 

Truly, the subtle nuance of a brick. And its intelligence too


----------



## Nevermind (Aug 29, 2013)

Can this thread just be closed? Anytime SDK is in a thread autism for pages on-end is guaranteed to follow.


----------



## manidk (Aug 29, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> I leave for a week and somehow, even in my absence, things have gotten even more cancerious. *Never change, cancerdome.* Never change. But seriously, the autism in this thread is ridiculous.



You do realize this is the main battledome, right?

Also, pot, kettle, black.



> Oh no, I don't intend to start anything. In case there are some people who haven't realized it yet, I stopped giving a shit a long time ago. I'm just here for the calcs and the vile amusement these threads provide me with. I just thought I'd drop by and laugh at TehChron for a while.



You talk like you've been here longer that your join date seem to show.



> Truly, the subtle nuance of a brick. And its intelligence too



And somehow, he's still more respected around here(As in, the entire OBD) than you.


----------



## MAPSK (Aug 29, 2013)

>Implying the cancerdome doesn't encompass the entire OBD
>Implying I'm not a self-identified avatar of the cancer
>Implying being respected here is an honor

Fool ck


----------



## OS (Aug 29, 2013)

Basilikos said:


> You and CK not on good terms or something?



No, it's just that CK will always defend his husbando.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 29, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> Oh no, I don't intend to start anything. In case there are some people who haven't realized it yet, I stopped giving a shit a long time ago. I'm just here for the calcs and the vile amusement these threads provide me with. I just thought I'd drop by and laugh at TehChron for a while.
> 
> Truly, the subtle nuance of a brick. And its intelligence too



Oh. well, everyone has their own unique sense of humor.

Yours suits you:

It being hilariously retarded to any observer with a functioning frontal lobe.

Anyway, FAPSK, you're dismissed. Come back in a week or so when the next opportunity to wank a favored series presents itself. Or if you want to feel a sense of belonging to soothe that aching loneliness that fuels that try-too-hard attitude of yours.

I'm always up for a sad, pitying chuckle.


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## Crimson King (Aug 29, 2013)

Original Sin said:


> No, it's just that CK will always defend his husbando.



Are you implying I'm gay?


Bitch please, I'm fabulous.

And it's not my fault people put the FCK against weaksauce characters


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## OS (Aug 29, 2013)

You changed your set after so long. I am impressed


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