# King and Queen were always meant to be on the same tier



## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

_King and Queen really were meant to be comparable all along. Oda has pushed them as a package through their whole presence in the manga. We had them :

- Introduced together in a double spread
- Hyped at Jack's expense as his bullies
- Guarding Momonosuke's execution platform
- Blocking the way towards the roof with Zoro not seeing an easier route between the two
- Fighting Marco and getting shared hype praise from him
- Cleaning the Live Floor Stage and punishing the "rebels"
- Uniting again to execute Marco with Zoro and Sanji saving him
- Going back and forth between their fights with their defeats taking place in consecutive chapters

and now finally both of them are once again brought together to meet their end the same way they were introuced, as a duo, at GB's hands.


They are pretty much at a level where they utterly destroy anyone weaker than Jack, and they get utterly destroyed by Top Tiers. You'd have to narrow the tiers real thin with like 2 character in each tier if you want to separate the two, and at this point the only reason to do that would be agenda purposes  _

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## convict (Jun 19, 2022)

Mid-high diff for King based on feats and hype

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## o0Shinthi0o (Jun 19, 2022)

Both of them r Bozos tier

Reactions: Funny 19


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

convict said:


> Mid-high diff for King based on feats and hype



_Feats lacked proper context. Some thought that King's performance against post RT Zoro makes him relevant against top tiers which was proven clearly not to be the case.

Hype and portrayal pushed him next to Queen through his entire presence in the manga.

Obviously King > Queen, but it's solid high diff and they are on the same tier  _

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## convict (Jun 19, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Feats lacked proper context. Some thought that King's performance against post RT Zoro makes him relevant against top tiers which was proven clearly not to be the case.
> 
> Hype and portrayal pushed him next to Queen through his entire presence in the manga.
> 
> Obviously King > Queen, but it's solid high diff and they are on the same tier _



This is getting into the same old arguments but Greenbull’s performance can’t be used to qualify them in the same tier just like Kiku can’t be extrapolated to be in Denjiro’s tier just because they both got wrecked by Kaido. Particularly since Greenbull has specific powers and hax that if you don’t have knowledge on can likely can stomp you instantly and we didn’t see the exact fight.

There are a host of more solid reasons for why they are or aren’t on a similar level.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 19, 2022)

They're clearly not on the same tier lol

King high diffs Queen

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

convict said:


> This is getting into the same old arguments but Greenbull’s performance can’t be used to qualify them in the same tier just like Kiku can’t be extrapolated to be in Denjiro’s tier just because they both got wrecked by Kaido. Particularly since Greenbull has specific powers and hax that if you don’t have knowledge on can likely can stomp you instantly and we didn’t see the exact fight.
> 
> There are a host of more solid reasons for why they are or aren’t on a similar level.



_Not really, their portrayal and hype constantly pushed them as comparable either using Jack as point of reference, or Zoro's perception of them as guardians of two different paths towards the roof, or Marco's perception of them as his opponents through direct statements in both cases, as well as the constant push for the two as a pair since their introduction through all their key moments in the manga, up to their demise at the hand of the same opponent.

The only thought to be significant distinction was what some believed it meant for him to dominate Zoro because of how that was supposed to make him relevant against top tiers due to how Zoro was perceived at the time in relation to said top tiers.

Turns out though that it really means nothing, since King is irrelevant against top tier just as much as Queen is. He is stronger and would defeat Queen, but he's also weaker and would lose to other Yonko subordinates himself. 

Queen gives him a high difficulty fight and that makes them part of the same tier, unless we really break up tiers so that like each tier contains like two characters   _

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## Eustathios (Jun 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> They're clearly not on the same tier lol
> 
> *King high diffs Queen*


Many would say that's in the same tier.

OT, yeah they're close. A high diff fight.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> They're clearly not on the same tier lol
> 
> King high diffs Queen



_And i think that makes them part of the same tier, unless we say characters need to be equals to be part of the same tier.

Benn and Shiryu might win with less than high diff against King for example, so how small are we making these tiers if we want to break apart high diff fight opponens ?

For example i don't think that all top tiers extreme diff eachother, you will have high difficulty fights within that tier as well _

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Seethesedogs (Jun 19, 2022)

Since when does High Diff mean a whole separate tier lol?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mercurial (Jun 19, 2022)

Terrible thread from the worst fandom
And here I thought that nothing could be worse than Shwanks's threads 



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Obviously King > Queen, but it's solid high diff and they are on the same tier _


If A wins high diff against B
They are not on the same tier
Not to mention that YC1, be it Marco, King or Katakuri, mid/mid high diffs Queen

Too slow to hit them and can't actually damage them due to Phoenix regeneration/Lunarian invulnerability/Future Sight that he can't overcome
Strong but terrible fighter 
Just tanks, fails his hits and goes down sooner or later to characters who are simply meant to be stronger than he is


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## convict (Jun 19, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _The only thought to be significant distinction was what some believed it meant for him to dominate Zoro because of how that was supposed to make him relevant against top tiers due to how Zoro was perceived at the time in relation to said top tiers.
> 
> Turns out though that it really means nothing, since King is irrelevant against top tier just as much as Queen is. He is stronger and would defeat Queen, but he's also weaker and would lose to other Yonko subordinates himself. _



No this doesn’t somehow negate Zoro’s feats. King’s durability and strength feats are still Maintained. But clearly overall as a combatant it shows you need more than that to be relevant against a top tier with wicked devil fruits - such as extremely proficient Haki and more superior firepower. This scene doesn’t bring King and Queen closer together just puts them both further from top tiers than we thought.

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## The crazy hacker (Jun 19, 2022)

Queen is a step below King. So a lower high diff fight.

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## Mercurial (Jun 19, 2022)

It's the first time that the fact that two people lost to someone makes them close each other

Sanji's die hard stans are really something else

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 19, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> Benn and Shiryu might win with less than high diff against King for example, so how small are we making these tiers if we want to break apart high diff fight opponens ?


Ben and Shiryu are on a different tier than King. King is YC1, they're both YC1+. Zoro isn't fighting someone on the same tier as King in a future arc.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> For example i don't think that all top tiers extreme diff eachother, you will have high difficulty fights within that tier as well


Wut? What top tier doesn't extreme diff each other? The Yonko were stated to be basically equals, the admirals the same. I don't expect any Yonko to high diff any admiral.

Primebeard, Roger and Prime Garp are on a higher tier than Yonkos too


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

convict said:


> No this doesn’t somehow negate Zoro’s feats. King’s durability and strength feats are still Maintained. But clearly overall as a combatant it shows you need more than that to be relevant against a top tier with wicked devil fruits - such as extremely proficient Haki and more superior firepower. This scene doesn’t bring King and Queen closer together just puts them both further from top tiers than we thought.


_
It doesn't negate Zoro's feats it just gives further context on what those feats mean when after those feats he was on the losing side against someone who is irrelevant against a top tier that's actually out to get them .

Just like how initially Zoro was supposed to be YC1 +++++ before fighting King and we got more clarity on that front, this further clarifies things.

The thing that remains constant and Oda even doubled down on was pushing King and Queen as a pair, being given comparable credit by their opponents or allies. From Jack fearing both of them, to Zoro not being able to pick between the routes guarded by either of them, to Marco praising both of them, to GB demolishing and dishing both of them.

Never a real significant distinction. No extra credit being given to King after GB too out both of them._

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Ben and Shiryu are on a different tier than King. King is YC1, they're both YC1+. Zoro isn't fighting someone on the same tier as King in a future arc.
> 
> 
> Wut? What top tier doesn't extreme diff each other? The Yonko were stated to be basically equals, the admirals the same. I don't expect any Yonko to high diff any admiral.
> ...



_Do you see only the Admirals and the Yonko as top tiers and think all fights between any of the Yonko or Admirals can basically go either way with extreme difficulty regardless of the Yonko or Admiral in question ?

Beside Buggy obviously i'm not trying to trick you with him   _


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 19, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Do you see only the Admirals and the Yonko as top tiers and think all fights between any of the Yonko or Admirals can basically go either way with extreme difficulty regardless of the Yonko or Admiral in question ?
> 
> Beside Buggy obviously i'm not trying to trick you with him  _


Yes I don't see any other top tier in the story except Mihawk, Imu and maybe the Gorosei

All fights between them are extreme diff, even if I believe the Yonko will beat the admirals 8-9/10 times


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Yes I don't see any other top tier in the story except Mihawk, Imu and maybe the Gorosei
> 
> All fights between them are extreme diff, even if I believe the Yonko will beat the admirals 8-9/10 times


_
Old Ray, Old Sengoku, Old Garp or one leg Aokiji are not top tiers or are still top tiers that can give extreme difficulty to other top tiers ?_


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 19, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Old Ray, Old Sengoku, Old Garp or one leg Aokiji are not top tiers or are still top tiers that can give extreme difficulty to other top tiers ?_


Sengoku, Garp and Aokiji are in the "admiral" category for me. Aokiji literally had the most extreme diff fight in the story with an admiral

And old ray isn't a top tier imo, specifically because he clearly could not give Kizaru an extreme diff fight


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Sengoku, Garp and Aokiji are in the "admiral" category for me. Aokiji literally had the most extreme diff fight in the story with an admiral
> 
> And old ray isn't a top tier imo, specifically because he clearly could not give Kizaru an extreme diff fight



_So you don't think that losing a leg did anything to make Aokiji weaker ?

Also, i'm not really sure that you can get over 10 characters that no matter how you match them up it always ends up in extreme diff fights. That's sounds a bit unbelievable  

And then does King have 10 + equals for his tier or there's just like 2 characters in the King tier ? _


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jun 19, 2022)

Agreed.

Defense - King>Queen (lunarian)
Attack power - Queen>King  (Snake attack did more damage than anything king has done + spamable lazers and big mom attack)
Versatility - Queen>King  (Plagues, invisibility, lasers, mechanical arms)
Speed - King>Queen ( Speed mode)

They are pretty neck and neck with king being slightly superior.

It's been pretty clear as day to anyone other than the legion, who morph the manga to make zoro look stronger at all costs. The latest chapter cemented the correct scaling even further.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 19, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> So you don't think that losing a leg did anything to make Aokiji weaker ?


Why would it? He replaced it perfectly. If anything, one leg Aokiji had a haki boost from the fight with Akainu and is stronger now than Pre TS.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> Also, i'm not really sure that you can get over 10 characters that no matter how you match them up it always ends up in extreme diff fights. That's sounds a bit unbelievable


Well you tell me, which top tier doesn't give which top tier an extreme diff fight?



Sir Curlyhat said:


> And then does King have 10 + equals for his tier or there's just like 2 characters in the King tier ?


YC1 is a small tier, yes, King, Marco, Kata, Sanji


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Why would it? He replaced it perfectly. If anything, one leg Aokiji had a haki boost from the fight with Akainu and is stronger now than Pre TS.
> 
> 
> Well you tell me, which top tier doesn't give which top tier an extreme diff fight?
> ...


_
I'm not sure it's difficult to say. I could see the old characters like Sengoku or Garp be less than extreme diff fights now after they retired.

Maybe even between Admirals and Yonko depending on how some match ups work out.

I'm not even sure your 3 characters King tier really are all extreme diff fights   

I don't really think you can make significant enough tiers if you restrict it to equals, when they are small enough even when you include high diff fights and then you still get more significant drops than that inbetween _


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## TheWiggian (Jun 19, 2022)

King beats the shit out of Queen. He sliced Queens fat ass without even trying to injure him.

Superior stats except weight. Better armament considering he was not immediately wrecked by a CoA specialist with AdvCotC.

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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> King beats the shit out of Queen. He sliced Queens fat ass without even trying to injure him.
> 
> Superior stats except weight. Better armament considering he was not immediately wrecked by a CoA specialist with AdvCotC.



_He caused Queens ass mild inconvenienve with the attack that launched Zoro across Onigashima into Frankys arms while he was trying to block_

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## convict (Jun 19, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Never a real significant distinction. No extra credit being given to King after GB too out both of them._



I can guarantee that if Jack was there King and Queen would not have gotten any more credit than him. It would just have been “Oh no Jack San!” Once again losing to a stronger foe off panel in the setting of hax is not a reflection how they compare to each other. Or you think they would say,”Look Jack got wrecked but who cares they got Queen and King!”

At most for the King/Queen-same-tier team this chapter gives another another panel in which they are side by side as a pro but the “on panel together” argument has been done to death and no one is going to change their stances on that particularly based on this chapter.

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## Empathy (Jun 19, 2022)

Queen was more f’d up from GB’s attack than King was.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 19, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _He caused Queens ass mild inconvenienve with the attack that launched Zoro across Onigashima into Frankys arms while he was trying to block_



So Queen was not even capable of blocking a slash not aimed at him?


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

convict said:


> I can guarantee that if Jack was there King and Queen would not have gotten any more credit than him. It would just have been “Oh no Jack San!” Once again losing to a stronger foe off panel in the setting of hax is not a reflection how they compare to each other. Or you think they would say,”Look Jack got wrecked but who cares they got Queen and King!”
> 
> At most for the King/Queen-same-tier team this chapter gives another another panel in which they are side by side as a pro but the “on panel together” argument has been done to death and no one is going to change their stances on that particularly based on this chapter.


_
Well you can see how Jack is treated next to King and Queen in their introduction so sure, a distinction could be made as simply as having the fodder say " even King and Queen" after they mention Jack, similar to how BM said "even Whiteabeard" after she mentioned the other Yonko to set him apart.

But like i said i also believe Kings performance or rather lack of, better contextualizez what some thought his feats meant, and shows how his portrayal of being more in line with Queen holds up. _


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## bil02 (Jun 19, 2022)

Only one got the "was that Roronoa? I pity that guy,there is no way he can beat King".

-Only one got the Kaido/Subordinate flashback as well as the regular talking scenes.

Your OP is valid and true to some degree but other factors get to invalidate that.
If King and Queen were really that close,they would be getting identical hype and scenes with Kaido too.

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## Mihawk (Jun 19, 2022)

The agenda of the Sanjibros live on strongly I see

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## Vinsmoke31 (Jun 19, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> So Queen was not even capable of blocking a slash not aimed at him?


He tanked one of king's attack without even having to block it like it was a minor annoyance.

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## Eustathios (Jun 19, 2022)

Though Queen is like a mini BM both in size and incompetence so King would beat him with less difficulty than normally required. My man gave Chopper an entire army just by getting his ass kicked.

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## TheWiggian (Jun 19, 2022)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> He tanked one of king's attack without even having to block it like it was a minor annoyance.



So he couldn't even block or defend against a slash not aimed at him. What will happen if King actually aims at him and tries?


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jun 19, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> So he couldn't even block or defend against a slash not aimed at him. What will happen if King actually aims at him and tries?


1. He wasn't expecting king to attack him
2. He didn't need to defend against it, because it was so weak it didn't do any damage.

King was trying, he was trying to kill zoro, an attack doesn't lose potency because it doesn't hit its intended target

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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Jun 19, 2022)

might as well come out and say they're equals
just like zoro and sanji

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## TheWiggian (Jun 19, 2022)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> 1. He wasn't expecting king to attack him
> 2. He didn't need to defend against it, because it was so weak it didn't do any damage



1. He wasn't expecting a guy who he got a rivalry with to attack him? (According to Sanji fans)
2. It was so weak that he complained about it? But for some strange reason he didn't fight back either.


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jun 19, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> 1. He wasn't expecting a guy who he got a rivalry with to attack him? (According to Sanji fans)
> 2. It was so weak that he complained about it? But for some strange reason he didn't fight back either.


Correct, why would he fight back if it didn't hurt, you answer your own dumb statements


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## TheWiggian (Jun 19, 2022)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> Correct, why would he fight back if it didn't hurt, you answer your own dumb statements



I thought they had a rivalry just like Sanji and Zoro?


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

bil02 said:


> Only one got the "was that Roronoa? I pity that guy,there is no way he can beat King".
> 
> -Only one got the Kaido/Subordinate flashback as well as the regular talking scenes.
> 
> ...



_That is similar to Big Mom telling Luffy that theres no way he can beat Kaido with Kaido not returning the line.

As you can see though i am accounting the few distinctions and not saying King = Queen or its an extreme difficulty fight.

I am quite lenient and not pushing for more than the minimum difficulty implied by their portrayal, which would be a high difficulty win in Kings favor.
_


Eustathios said:


> _Though Queen is like a mini BM both in size and incompetence so King would beat him with less difficulty than normally required. My man gave Chopper an entire army just by getting his ass kicked._


_
They do actually resemble Kaido and Big Mom a lot with how they are pushed as a duo and arguably if you want to look at feats Kaido pulled out a lot more after Big Moms defeat to give the impression of a more significant gap than their portrayal implies._

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## bil02 (Jun 19, 2022)

Even from a pure matchup perspective,What does Queen have in his arsenal to push king to high diff? Tankiness?

Aside from his virus and lasers,Queen barely got any fighting skills imo.

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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

bil02 said:


> Even from a pure matchup perspective,What does Queen have in his arsenal to push king to high diff? Tankiness?
> 
> Aside from his virus and lasers,Queen barely got any fighting skills imo.



_What did Queen have in his arsenal to earn same hype from someone arguably stronger than King in Marco if his arsenal and stats can't make a difference ?

Obviously the whole package is enough to get there.

WHat difficulty do you think BM gives Kaido based on their feats from a match up perspective ?_

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## Mylesime (Jun 19, 2022)

bil02 said:


> Even from a pure matchup perspective,What does Queen have in his arsenal to push king to high diff? Tankiness?
> 
> Aside from his virus and lasers,Queen barely got any fighting skills imo.



Invisibility which was shown effective against King.
He lost Momonosuke after Sanji's intervention , unable to spot him.


On topic, King is stronger than Queen.
That's not the point tough....  many claimed that King was on a whole other level.
That's BS.
He ain't mid diffing shit .
Mid diff is the kind of thing that Jinbei did to WsW.


Someone being weaker doesn't mean that he's incrediblly inferior.....
Aka inu is the strongest admiral, doesn't mean he shits on the others.
Why that need to make the gap bigger than it is, despite clear evidences ?
We all know the motives.



I have never seen two commanders paired like that. The difference between these two is not bigger than the one between Joz and Marco for example.
Yet who would claim that Marco low diff Joz?
Queen is the closest character to King among the Beast Pirates in terms of strength. And vice versa.
Not Kaido, nor Jack.


They were introduced together and were taken down together. That was clearly intentional
They also teamed up against Marco and GB..... where quite frankly their performances were comparable.
Replace Queen with Jack ,and we all know Jack is not keeping up like that.
That is portrayal my friends...... it would have been very easy to showcase that supposed huge difference  in skills and power. Oda did not.




At this point claiming that King shits on Queen is another way of telling us that Zoro is someone's favorite character.
Either way?
Not worth debating......

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## Igor (Jun 19, 2022)

I agree. Anyone who analyzes PL interpreting catharsis, thematic and narrative will probably agree with you.

The Zoroturds who use their headcannons using their imaginary fight scenarios won't agree with you.

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## Almageste (Jun 19, 2022)

King high diffs Queen. Others who try to make it King = Queen or King mid diffs Queen are just cereal boxes.

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## ShWanks (Jun 20, 2022)

Exactly, you need an advanced haki or insane all-around stats to be portrayed as YC1+ lvl.


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## Perrin (Jun 20, 2022)

Well yeah. They’re parallels to zoro and sanji. Even the bickering and being massively weaker than their captain is similar.

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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 20, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Well yeah. They’re parallels to zoro and sanji. Even the bickering and being massively weaker than their captain is similar.



_King is also 1 cm taller than Queen the way Zoro is 1 cm taller than Sanji and Shanks is 1 cm taller than Mihawk  _

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## Ludi (Jun 20, 2022)

Both are "no longer relevant" tier

Reactions: GODA 2


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 20, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Both are "no longer relevant" tier



_Bozo Commanders Squad   _


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jun 20, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _King is also 1 cm taller than Queen the way Zoro is 1 cm taller than Sanji and Shanks is 1 cm taller than Mihawk  _

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## Turrin (Jun 20, 2022)

I think King is for sure stronger but Queen has a-lot of hax that makes them closer. That’s why Queen crumbled more when his Hax didn’t work against Sanji


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jun 20, 2022)

One armed Queen lasted longer against Ryokugyu.

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## Vinsmoke31 (Jun 20, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> I thought they had a rivalry just like Sanji and Zoro?


They do, when do zoro and sanji fight each other in the middle of a war?


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## Amol (Jun 20, 2022)

King would require very high diff to beat Queen.

They are the closest YC1 and YC2i have ever seen. Oda just made that way too obvious.

So yeah I guess they are on same tier.

King is winning any fight they have though. Queen's chances of winning are less than zero. He would just put a great fight.

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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jun 20, 2022)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> They do, when do zoro and sanji fight each other in the middle of a war?


Eneis Lobby


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jun 20, 2022)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Eneis Lobby


And why does it matter? His point was proven wrong so he went down a rabbit hole until something he said(which is completely irrelevant) made any sense at all.

We went from kings attack was soo weak that it was a minor annoyance to queen.

To king and queen have to have an absolutely identical rivalry down to specific actions to zoro and sanji, for no reason at all.


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## trance (Jun 20, 2022)

queen gives king a good tussle but loses 10/10 and doesn't push him to his limits

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## TheWiggian (Jun 20, 2022)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> They do, when do zoro and sanji fight each other in the middle of a war?



EL, Davy Back, miles under the waters surface vs the kraken... list goes on  

Queen knows best. Since he has a rivalry with King ()



He already tried for decades probably:



Nothing too impressive of Queen surviving that slash, it wasn't aimed at him, even fodders survived it:





Queen was injured in the crossfire like a fodder

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## Mercurial (Jun 20, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> EL, Davy Back, miles under the waters surface vs the kraken... list goes on
> 
> Queen knows best. Since he has a rivalry with King ()
> 
> ...


The literal definition of "dies in the crossfire"

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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jun 20, 2022)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> And why does it matter? His point was proven wrong so he went down a rabbit hole until something he said(which is completely irrelevant) made any sense at all.
> 
> We went from kings attack was soo weak that it was a minor annoyance to queen.
> 
> To king and queen have to have an absolutely identical rivalry down to specific actions to zoro and sanji, for no reason at all.


Hmm? I just saw your post and wanted to answer.


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## Conxc (Jun 20, 2022)

Sanji stans at it again  . Now losing to the same opponent makes you equals. When will these shit arguments end

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## sanji fanboy (Jun 20, 2022)

bounty said otherwise though


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## J★J♥ (Jun 20, 2022)

Quin has way too many abilities on top of YC stats to be stuck on Kings tier. It can be only accomplished through shit tier writing

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 20, 2022)

sanji fanboy said:


> bounty said otherwise though



_Both bounties are within the same 1,3x bil tier   _

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## Well actually (Jun 20, 2022)

It doesn't really matter whether or not King and Queen are comparable, because Sanji is still a confirmed equal of no sword Zoro.


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## J★J♥ (Jun 20, 2022)

bil02 said:


> Even from a pure matchup perspective,What does Queen have in his arsenal to push king to high diff? Tankiness?
> 
> Aside from his virus and lasers,Queen barely got any fighting skills imo.


Bioweapons, Lasers, Guided rockets, All Germa abilities, Augmented Ancient Zoan stats etc. He has so many abilities Oda won't even be able draw him fighting without it looking completely idiotic like it did in canon.

Reactions: Like 1


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## J★J♥ (Jun 20, 2022)

I almost forgot that he has 2 or at very least top 5 highest IQ in the verse


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jun 20, 2022)

J★J♥ said:


> Bioweapons, Lasers, Guided rockets, All Germa abilities, Augmented Ancient Zoan stats etc. He has so many abilities Oda won't even be able draw him fighting without it looking completely idiotic like it did in canon.


Like what kind of question was that? Queen literally has shown the largest variety of fighting skills in the entire manga. Oda had to make him a moron to give sanji the win(even though he should be world class intellect).

Reactions: Like 3


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## ShWanks (Jun 20, 2022)

Lol the damage control by Zoro stand is hilarious. King can only beat Queen with EXTREME diff & that's due to Queen's CIS.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## Mercurial (Jun 21, 2022)

Queen's genius battle intellect = in the most important moment of his battle, he lets himself be distracted from a whore and her mouse 

Such a genius strategist lmao 

Let's not be ridicolous 
Queen is a genius scientist
And a terrible fighter

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## ShWanks (Jun 21, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> Queen's genius battle intellect = in the most important moment of his battle, he lets himself be distracted from a whore and her mouse
> 
> Such a genius strategist lmao
> 
> ...


King literally only had to stay mobile in the air with his flame mode & spam to win...he let himself fight a swordsman in a ground duel despite not being one himself...

Such a genius strategy Lmao

Let's not be ridiculous 
King is an ancient race
And a terrible fighter
Also, it seems Queen lasted longer than King against Aramaki lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 21, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> Queen's genius battle intellect = in the most important moment of his battle, he lets himself be distracted from a whore and her mouse
> 
> Such a genius strategist lmao
> 
> ...



_Queen already had the previous experience of moving around Sanji while invisible and hurting the Geisha without Sanji being able to track him.

We know that Sanji was in his head at the time and that's the reason he was not using his CoO, but as far as Queen is concerned he could have just assumed that Sanji's CoO is simply not good enough.

Queen also could see how the Geisha getting hurt affected Sanji emotionally last time, so him hurting her could have caused Sanji to drop his high speed movement in order to tend to her, which could have given Queen an opening to attack him.

Seems smarter than King randomly dropping out of his durability mode so that Zoro can finish him off _

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Soba (Jun 21, 2022)

They always were.

Introduced together, close bounty, shown in a bickering/rivaling spotlight, had numerous scenes fighting together, were defeated right after one another.

Marco grouped them together with one another, so did Zoro claiming neither one of them is a pushover. 

King is obviously stronger, but not by much. Solid high to extreme diff win for King.

Reactions: Like 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Perrin (Jun 21, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _King is also 1 cm taller than Queen the way Zoro is 1 cm taller than Sanji and Shanks is 1 cm taller than Mihawk  _


Is the shanks mihawk thing true?
If so that’s a bit sad. I wanted zoro to surpass warlord

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 21, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Is the shanks mihawk thing true?
> If so that’s a bit sad. I wanted zoro to surpass warlord



_Yeah it's a thing we knew about Zoro/Sanji and Shanks/Mihawk since pre time skip.

We also know it's not at all random since both Zoro and Sanji grow taller during the time skip but Oda maintains the exact 1 cm difference   _

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Soba (Jun 21, 2022)

Oda gave rivaling character like Z/S/ K/Q and S/M the 1 cm height diff, to showcase who's stronger and that it's not by much, but the legion continues to deny facts.

Just like how they denied doriki.

It's a hopeless battle really. At this point Oda himself can come and claim they were almost equal, and they're gonna spin it that he meant in rank or authority or whatever.

Reactions: GODA 1


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## Perrin (Jun 21, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Yeah it's a thing we knew about Zoro/Sanji and Shanks/Mihawk since pre time skip.
> 
> We also know it's not at all random since both Zoro and Sanji grow taller during the time skip but Oda maintains the exact 1 cm difference  _


My gods. Thats such a close difference

Reactions: Friendly 1 | GODA 1


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## ShWanks (Jun 21, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Yeah it's a thing we knew about Zoro/Sanji and Shanks/Mihawk since pre time skip.
> 
> We also know it's not at all random since both Zoro and Sanji grow taller during the time skip but Oda maintains the exact 1 cm difference  _


There's also an implied height difference according to power in M3 admirals as well. Akainu is 306cm while Kizaru is 302 cm & Kuzan is 298 cm. All have a 4cm difference in height & Oda implied Kizaru was stronger than Kuzan Pre-TS in an SBS.


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## Perrin (Jun 21, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> There's also an implied height difference according to power in M3 admirals as well. Akainu is 306cm while Kizaru is 302 cm & Kuzan is 298 cm. All have a 4cm difference in height & Oda implied Kizaru was stronger than Kuzan Pre-TS in an SBS.


How tall is kuzan post skip?


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## ShWanks (Jun 21, 2022)

Perrin said:


> How tall is kuzan post skip?


They're all same height still but Kuzan probably got Haki boost & is no longer an Admiral so I believe Fujitora took his placement. Fujitora is 300cm tall only 2cm more than Kuzan. I believe Fujitora is implied closer to Kizaru than MF Kuzan hence Gravity/Light, Zoro/Sanji, Best Observation Haki/Best Speed. Akainu is noticably stronger than all which is why he got Fleet Admiral & only got scars while Kuzan lost a limb & got scars.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## sanji fanboy (Jun 25, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Both bounties are within the same 1,3x bil tier  _


_WCI luffy and jack are within the same 1 bil tier_  <----- your logic


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 25, 2022)

sanji fanboy said:


> _WCI luffy and jack are within the same 1 bil tier_  <----- your logic



_You brought up the bounty in the first place   _


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jun 25, 2022)

sanji fanboy said:


> _WCI luffy and jack are within the same 1 bil tier_  <----- your logic


They're not in the same crew. Beast pirates are more brutal


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## MrPopo (Jun 25, 2022)

They are but people over rate Zoro and undersell Sanji so even when Oda shows their enimes being close in strength copuim excuses come up

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 4 | GODA 1


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## ShWanks (Jun 25, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> They are but people over rate Zoro and undersell Sanji so even when Oda shows their enimes being close in strength copuim excuses come up


Right. Wait till Zoro gets black blade & Sanji gets Raidsuit upgrade. Zoro stans will say Black Blade Zoro >> Zoro = Raidsuit Infrit Sanji >> Infrit...

Raidsuit Upgrade >> 1 Black Blade


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## Perrin (Jun 25, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Right. Wait till Zoro gets black blade & Sanji gets Raidsuit upgrade. Zoro stans will say Black Blade Zoro >> Zoro = Raidsuit Infrit Sanji >> Infrit...
> 
> Raidsuit Upgrade >> 1 Black Blade


Nah that’d would make them appear disingenuous


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## ShWanks (Jun 25, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Nah that’d would make them appear disingenuous


Trust me. They'll do exactly just that. I've seen it in times past whenever Sanji gets a great feat they undersell it & overhype Zoro's.


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## Perrin (Jun 25, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Trust me. They'll do exactly just that. I've seen it in times past whenever Sanji gets a great feat they undersell it & overhype Zoro's.


Sanji’s always had great feet.
Meanwhile zoro tried to cut his own ones off in little gaiden.
Sanji’s feet > Zoro’s

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jun 25, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Right. Wait till Zoro gets black blade & Sanji gets Raidsuit upgrade. Zoro stans will say Black Blade Zoro >> Zoro = Raidsuit Infrit Sanji >> Infrit...
> 
> Raidsuit Upgrade >> 1 Black Blade


Zoro already had a black blade and he was vet level


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## Lmao (Jun 25, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> They are but people over rate Zoro and undersell Sanji so even when Oda shows their enimes being close in strength copuim excuses come up


You'd think people would understand how Oda views the gap between Zoro and Sanji when he literally created a powerscaling system during EL and matched them with similar opponents.

Legion working overtime as per usual to create an imaginary large gap between them.


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## ShWanks (Jun 25, 2022)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> Zoro already had a black blade and he was vet level


Which is why I try telling people Oden > Ryuma is very plausible. Black Blades are overrated. Oden had two massively more powerful blades than Ryuma.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 25, 2022)

King > Queen just like Zoro is > Sanji.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Empathy (Jun 25, 2022)

You can make the argument that Queen is portrayed somewhat close in strength to King, but it just makes King look like one of the weakest YC1s, rather than Queen being a borderline YC1 himself, which is what I think the OP was probably going for.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShWanks (Jun 25, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> King > Queen just like Zoro is > Sanji.


You missed the point. No one is seriously arguing that. It's that it's much closer than people claim. 
King = 85
Queen = 84


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 26, 2022)

Can someone tell me the chapters of Sanji vs Queen.

From what I remember, queen did literally nothing after sanji's powerup. At least king still put up somewhat of a fight vs Zoro. King manhandles queen


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## ShWanks (Jun 28, 2022)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Can someone tell me the chapters of Sanji vs Queen.
> 
> From what I remember, queen did literally nothing after sanji's powerup. At least king still put up somewhat of a fight vs Zoro. King manhandles queen


Tbf Queen had huge CIS throughout his fight.


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## Casval Rem Aznable (Jun 28, 2022)

Queen was pathetic even for a yc3


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## Conxc (Jun 28, 2022)

If you ask me, using the EL Douriki example to argue parity at this point is just as bad as arguing that Luffy and Zoro are equals because they were at Whiskey Peak.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jun 28, 2022)

Conxc said:


> If you ask me, using the EL Douriki example to argue parity at this point is just as bad as arguing that Luffy and Zoro are equals because they were at Whiskey Peak.


Good thing no ones asking you

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Conxc (Jun 28, 2022)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> Good thing no ones asking you


Yeah, we’ll maybe people should

But yeah. The Douriki argument is really bad. Especially now.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2022)

The All Stars are displayed in two pages
King has an entire page reserved for him alone, and Queen and Jack share the other remaining page

King alone, 1 entire page
Queen and Jack grouped together, 1/2 of a page for each



"Portrayal"
"Grouped together"
"Mentioned together"
And so on



Oh yeah I forgot, being grouped together, appear together, being mentioned together etc etc all count only when it fulfill your headcanons, otherwise they mean shit.
Like some portrayal of Sanji along Zoro "Equalzzzz rivalZzZz". A lot of heavy portrayal of Zoro along Luffy "doesn't mean shit".
Excuse me then.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 5


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## MrPopo (Jun 29, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> The All Stars are displayed in two pages
> King has an entire page reserved for him alone, and Queen and Jack share the other remaining page
> 
> King alone, 1 entire page
> ...


Power scalling the number of pages for concept art

Reactions: Funny 7


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Power scalling the number of pages for concept art


Powerscaling people appearing in a panel 
Powerscaling people being in a phrase 

OMG Jack ~ King
Portrayal!!



OMG Zoro is a strong as Luffy, they appear together in a shit ton of panels, they are mentioned together and referred the same way as "these two" a shit ton of times, I guess that this makes them on par!
(it doesn't, but by your terrible reasonings it should... just that you are awfully incoherent, so you apply these reasonings only when they suit you)

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 29, 2022)

Both King and big mom where given the same number of pages of concept art this is Oda telling the reader that king ~big mom

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Both King and big mom where given the same number of pages of concept art this is Oda telling the reader that king ~big mom


It's a completely different thing and you know, he could have given an entire page to each All Star and yet he didn't
I don't think he was short on pages lmao

But to troll your way
Yes he is
Portrayal doesn't lie
Appear in a similar way once
Be equal for life then
(doesn't apply for Luffy and Zoro,  though)

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 29, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> Powerscaling people appearing in a panel
> Powerscaling people being in a phrase
> 
> OMG Jack ~ King
> Portrayal!!


Is there panel of Zoro saying niether path is easy between king and Jack or Marco commenting how holding off king and Jack is difficult  


Mercurial said:


> OMG Zoro is a strong as Luffy, they appear together in a shit ton of panels, they are mentioned together and referred the same way as "these two" a shit ton of times, I guess that this makes them on par!
> *(it doesn't, but by your terrible reasonings it should... just that you are awfully incoherent, so you apply these reasonings only when they suit you)*


You just tried to use concept art

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## MrPopo (Jun 29, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> It's a completely different thing and you know, he could have given an entire page to each All Star and yet he didn't
> I don't think he was short on pages lmao
> 
> But to troll your way
> ...


I saw that edit sir


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Is there panel of Zoro saying niether path is easy between king and Jack or Marco commenting how holding off king and Jack is difficult


Yes
And neither the panel I just posted nor the ones you referred are proof of any "portrayal"
My panel doesn't make King ~ Jack and your panels doesn't make King ~ Queen

It's King > Jack > Queen, as it was obvious from the start, going by the card hierarchy 
It's really as simply as it is
No need for you few stans to desperately argue against 




MrPopo said:


> You just tried to use concept art


Needed to lower almost to your level

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 29, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> Yes
> And neither the panel I just posted nor the ones you referred are proof of any "portrayal"
> My panel doesn't make King ~ Jack and your panels doesn't make King ~ Queen


Is Zoro a liar why didn't he saw the path guarded by Queen is the much easier route  

Why didn't Marco comment how far dangerous king is or a fodder saying king negged Marco instead statementing he ran out of stamina  


Mercurial said:


> It's King > Jack > Queen, as it was obvious from the start, going by the card hierarchy
> It's really as simply as it is
> No need for you few stans to desperately argue against


Since when is a jack above a queen in cards 


Mercurial said:


> Needed to lower almost to your level


Then it looks you've made a mistake then

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Well actually (Jun 29, 2022)

Does it really matter if Queen is comparable to King?

Sanji was consistently overpowered by Queen, and only defeated him after Queen distracted himself. Let's repeat that, Queen was only defeated by a distraction, despite Queen's obvious incompetence, Sanji could not defeat him in a fair fight.

So if Sanji never proved himself to truly be stronger than Queen, these arguments are irrelevant.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Is Zoro a liar why didn't he saw the path guarded by Queen is the much easier route
> 
> Why didn't Marco comment how far dangerous king is or a fodder saying king negged Marco instead statementing he ran out of stamina


For the same reason for why no one said "you fool, try to challenge Jack if you really feel, but it would be worthless for you to even try to fight Queen, let alone to fight King"

Because nothing of this counts for power levels
Not this, not that
Nothing



MrPopo said:


> Since when is a jack above a queen in cards
> 
> Then it looks you've made a mistake then



Google:
The order of the cards, from highest to lowest, is: *ace, king (K), queen (Q), jack (J), ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three and deuce*.


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## Mylesime (Jun 29, 2022)

I would like to add another prominent character , that faced both calamities , opinion on their relative strength.
After Zoro, Marco, Sanji, now Aramaki.


God bless Greenbull.
"Pirate subordinates"....... not "Queen the fodder and the almighty King".










Good luck with concept art analysis. Trying to act like the dynamic between the calamities is the same.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 29, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> For the same reason for why no one said "you fool, try to challenge Jack if you really feel, but it would be worthless for you to even try to fight Queen, let alone to fight King"
> 
> Because nothing of this counts for power levels
> Not this, not that
> Nothing


Zoro talking about powerful potential opponents doesn't count  


Mercurial said:


> Google:
> The order of the cards, from highest to lowest, is: *ace, king (K), queen (Q), jack (J), ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three and deuce*.


Your Google puts queen above Jack

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> I would like to add another prominent character , that faced both calamities , opinion on their relative strength.
> After Zoro, Marco, Sanji, now Aramaki.
> 
> 
> ...


No need to go hysterical with emoticons, gif and what not as you usually do.

No one said that King is the strongest character in the manga and Queen an Alvida-tier fodder.
People just say that King is a fair amount stronger than Queen. Which is how things are.



MrPopo said:


> Zoro talking about powerful potential opponents doesn't count


Are you trolling?
The fact that two characters are both powerful potential opponents doesn't make them close in strength 
What should have Zoro had to say? They are both strong but it would be easier to fight YC2 Queen than YC1 King?
You are insane

It means nothing
Again, like no one said anything to Who's Who who challenged All Stars without making any difference between King and Jack, and like Who's Who himself didn't feel to make any difference between them



MrPopo said:


> Your Google puts queen above Jack



Yeah

King > Queen > Jack

Easiest most stupid and basic thing in the world


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 29, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> The All Stars are displayed in two pages
> King has an entire page reserved for him alone, and Queen and Jack share the other remaining page
> 
> King alone, 1 entire page
> ...



_
Oda had more scrapped ideas for King and he still turned out a bozo commander   _

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 29, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> No need to go hysterical with emoticons, gif and what not as you usually do.
> 
> No one said that King is the strongest character in the manga and Queen an Alvida-tier fodder.
> People just say that King is a fair amount stronger than Queen. Which is how things are.



I'm perfectly calm and collected, stop projecting.
Gifs and memes mean nothing, i'm fucking around and one picture is worth more than a hundred words.....
Relax , it's not that deep.
Case in point:







You're the one studying concept arts..... rather than simply aknowledging that there is not that much between King and Queen when facing folks like Marco, Zoro or Aramaki.
King is stronger than Queen, no one has ever disputed that fact.
However when it was shamelessly argued that he could Borderline Low diff him despite all evidences suggesting otherwise?
When folks still keep spewing BS after the last chapter when it's all over?








There is no significant gap; as highlighted by countless powerful opponents that encountered both.
King ain't mid diffing shit.
High diff.
No matter how many times you will argue otherwise , some people will call you out because it's a lie.


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## MrPopo (Jun 29, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 5 | Winner 3


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## Ludi (Jun 29, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Both King and big mom where given the same number of pages of concept art this is Oda telling the reader that king ~big mom


King > BM based on on panel feats


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## MrPopo (Jun 29, 2022)

Ludi said:


> King > BM based on on panel feats


King the bozo got stomped in a 2v1 against Ryokugyu, big mom stalemated Kaido how does king have better feats

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jun 29, 2022)

MrPopo said:


>


This is literally how they read the manga, no exaggeration at all.


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## Ludi (Jun 29, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> King the bozo got stomped in a 2v1 against Ryokugyu, big mom stalemated Kaido how does king have better feats



Chadbull > bozo king >  biggest meme

Kaido didn't take BM serious as we all know


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## MrPopo (Jun 29, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Chadbull > bozo king >  biggest meme
> 
> Kaido didn't take BM serious as we all know


Neither did big mom don't forget kidd and law did more damage than Kaido to big mom

Reactions: Like 2


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## Dunno (Jun 29, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Both King and big mom where given the same number of pages of concept art this is Oda telling the reader that king ~big mom


He told us quite clearly how they compare when he had them fight in the manga.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 29, 2022)

Dunno said:


> He told us quite clearly how they compare when he had them fight in the manga.


They fought? 
Do you think a squid can beat king as well  ?


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## Ludi (Jun 29, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Neither did big mom don't forget kidd and law did more damage than Kaido to big mom


Kidd and law > BM too though


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## Dunno (Jun 29, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> They fought?
> Do you think a squid can beat king as well  ?


I didn't see any squid one-shot King.


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## Perrin (Jun 29, 2022)

Jack and King are on the same tier.


Both calamities.
Both ancient zoan users.
Both non-humans.
Neither has CoC
Neither has demonstrated CoA / CoO
Both use a sword but wouldn’t consider themselves Swordsmen.


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## MrPopo (Jun 29, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Kidd and law > BM too though


So it's
Kid law > Big Mom >Kaido >luffy


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## Almageste (Jun 29, 2022)

Good god the Sanji hate is sickening. Just reading through this toxic cesspool of a topic shows how some people can’t just let every fandom be happy and just need to use every trick in the book to shit on Queen/Sanji.

King is cool we get that. He is superior to Queen yes. He had a databook entry yes. Doesn’t take away all the parallels with Queen, doesn’t mean you have to suddenly spit on Sanji’s victory and call it mega extreme diff just to de hype him.

Statistically, as in by the number of panels used, the author CLEARLY wants us to understand:

Luffy and Zoro are partners
Zoro and Sanji are rivals
King and Queen are on a different tier from Jack

End of the story

Reactions: Like 2


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## Perrin (Jun 29, 2022)

Will we get this with 
- Fuji & Greenbull? 
- Weevil & Mihawk?
- Shirylliewu & Burgess?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lmao (Jun 29, 2022)

Conxc said:


> If you ask me, using the EL Douriki example to argue parity at this point is just as bad as arguing that Luffy and Zoro are equals because they were at Whiskey Peak.


Nah bro you guys just don't like EL Douriki because it goes against your headcanon, if Oda wanted to portray a large gap for Zoro and Sanji he'd have simply given Kaku 3500 douriki - it's really that simple. The douriki system btw aligns with how Oda structures the fights in general, Luffy's opponents are usually much stronger than Zoro/Sanji's.

Whiskey Peak incident is a bad comparison because it was a short exchange, if anything that's a positive showing for Luffy being able to match someone who's wielding 3 sharp swords with just his bare hands. The most you can argue out of that scene is that they have comparable physical strength but that's about it.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Ludi (Jun 29, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> So it's
> Kid law > Big Mom >Kaido >luffy


Nah current Luffy > Kaido > G4 Luffy > BM clearly


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## Conxc (Jun 29, 2022)

Lmao said:


> Nah bro you guys just don't like EL Douriki because it goes against your headcanon, if Oda wanted to portray a large gap for Zoro and Sanji he'd have simply given Kaku 3500 douriki - it's really that simple. The douriki system btw aligns with how Oda structures the fights in general, Luffy's opponents are usually much stronger than Zoro/Sanji's.


Not really. It's just extremely outdated, and even at the time: 
*Spoiler*: __ 







 Oda let us know pretty quickly that Doriki is just a measure of physical ability and that outside factors are still important in the outcome of a fight. It's always been a bad argument, but thinking that it would apply now is crazy. If we were told that DF abilities make up a decisive omission from what Doriki measures, how much do you think Haki makes up?


Lmao said:


> Whiskey Peak incident is a bad comparison because it was a short exchange, if anything that's a positive showing for Luffy being able to match someone who's wielding 3 sharp swords with just his bare hands. The most you can argue out of that scene is that they have comparable physical strength but that's about it.


No, it's at the very least, a better argument than Doriki because this was an actual fight where every fighting aspect of the two involved is on display and can be measured, *not *just physical ability, as Doriki *exclusively *measures. Both are bad arguments when applied to current OP, but the Doriki argument is definitely the worse of the two, and has been bad even since it was introduced.


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## Kroczilla (Jun 29, 2022)

Douriki measures base physical strength. As has been rightly pointed out, it doesn't take overall combat ability into account. Things like having a DF or significant skill gap definitely tilt the scale. 

However as it concerns Kaku and Jabra, Douriki is absolutely is valid argument especially as it concerns how they compare with each other. Unless the argument is that Kaku was vastly more skilled or something to that effect, there is literally no valid reason why their Douriki ranking isn't a valid measure of their strength. They both had appeared to have similar mastery of rokushiki techniques, both had their unique specialities and both had zoan DFs. In all respects, they were shown as equals which leaves the Douriki ranking as the only objective measure of a gap between them.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Lmao (Jun 29, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Not really. It's just extremely outdated, and even at the time:
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


It doesn't change the fact Zoro's physical strength was closer to Sanji's than it was to Luffy's


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Douriki measures base physical strength. As has been rightly pointed out, it doesn't take overall combat ability into account. Things like having a DF or significant skill gap definitely tilt the scale.
> 
> However as it concerns Kaku and Jabra, Douriki is absolutely is valid argument especially as it concerns how they compare with each other. Unless the argument is that Kaku was vastly more skilled or something to that effect, there is literally no valid reason why their Douriki ranking isn't a valid measure of their strength. They both had appeared to have similar mastery of rokushiki techniques, both had their unique specialities and both had zoan DFs. In all respects, they were shown as equals which leaves the Douriki ranking as the only objective measure of a gap between them.


Kaku's second strongest move equalled Zoro's Shishi Sonson; his strongest move, when used just for a show off, showed an offensive power comparable to Lucci's Rankyaku Gaicho (cutting a giant tower/cutting a warship)
Jabra's second strongest move and his strongest move did... what? Does someone even remember about them? Yeah he could move while using Tekkai, and that resulted in... what?

Doriki don't count external additions like weapons, DFs and so on.
Jabra to his doriki adds his DF that merely increases his strength, speed and so on.
Kaku to his doriki adds his DF that completely changes his abilities (his strongest move is something that he could not even perform before eating the DF, as he needs the giant body of the giraffe) plus his swordsmanship (he self calls himself a swordsman).

Doriki Kaku >= Doriki Jabra (the gap is small, but it's also important to notice that Jabra doesn't say "who cares it's just a small gap" he reacts instead by openly admitting, albeit with a grudge, his inferiority to Kaku)

Overall, Kaku >> Jabra (out of the slightly stronger doriki, Kaku adds much more to that than Jabra does)

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Conxc (Jun 29, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Douriki measures base physical strength. As has been rightly pointed out, it doesn't take overall combat ability into account. Things like having a DF or significant skill gap definitely tilt the scale.
> 
> However as it concerns Kaku and Jabra, Douriki is absolutely is valid argument especially as it concerns how they compare with each other. Unless the argument is that Kaku was vastly more skilled or something to that effect, there is literally no valid reason why their Douriki ranking isn't a valid measure of their strength. They both had appeared to have similar mastery of rokushiki techniques, both had their unique specialities and both had zoan DFs. In all respects, they were shown as equals which leaves the Douriki ranking as the only objective measure of a gap between them.


I'd say it's a more fair argument to compare those two, sure. Not 100% accurate, of course. I just think it's silly to use this measure to compare Zoro and Sanji, especially now. Back then, it was a much better argument, but still a bad one IMO. Neither of the two were pushed to their limits by Kaku and Jyabura. Would you say that the Doriki of Kaku and Jyabura is a valid choice of measurement for Zoro and Sanji now?


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## Conxc (Jun 29, 2022)

Lmao said:


> It doesn't change the fact Zoro's physical strength was closer to Sanji's than it was to Luffy's


Really? What were Zoro and Sanji's Doriki's again? Luffy's too while you're at it?


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2022)

Lmao said:


> It doesn't change the fact Zoro's physical strength was closer to Sanji's than it was to Luffy's


Luffy extreme diffed Lucci, actually one could say that they almost ended in a draw, basically

Zoro mid/high diffed Kaku

Sanji mid/high diffed Jabra

So... no, terrible comparison


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## Lmao (Jun 29, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Really? What were Zoro and Sanji's Doriki's again? Luffy's too while you're at it?


Are you really going to argue using their opponents dourikis is not a valid way to gauge their strength? Cmon now. Zoro and Sanji wouldn't lose clashes if their physical stats were much better, nor would they both receive a powerup to end the fight.



Mercurial said:


> Luffy extreme diffed Lucci, actually one could say that they almost ended in a draw, basically
> 
> Zoro mid/high diffed Kaku
> 
> ...


Sanji performed equally well against an opponent that was as physically powerful as Zoro's, you just can't handle the idea the cook has comparable stats to the grandmaster. Take it up with Oda, I don't write the manga.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2022)

Lmao said:


> Are you really going to argue using their opponents dourikis is not a valid way to gauge their strength? Cmon now. Zoro and Sanji wouldn't lose clashes if their physical stats were much better, nor would they both receive a powerup to end the fight.
> 
> 
> Sanji performed equally well against an opponent that was as physically powerful as Zoro's, you just can't handle the idea the cook has comparable stats to the grandmaster. Take it up with Oda, I don't write the manga.


The fact that they were phsycally comparable doesn't mean they were overall comparable, when one of the two adds swordsmanship, an entire different thing, and the other... doesn't


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## Conxc (Jun 29, 2022)

Lmao said:


> Are you really going to argue using their opponents dourikis is not a valid way to gauge their strength? Cmon now. Zoro and Sanji wouldn't lose clashes if their physical stats were much better, nor would they both receive a powerup to end the fight.


Yes, because *again*, Doriki does not account for DF abilities, weapons, fighting styles in general, or even mental caveats like being cunning  etc. Zoro and Sanji's fights did not come down to who was physically stronger. They were clearly superior to Kaku and Jyabura as complete fighters. I also don't recall Zoro or Sanji being overpowered in a head to head clash by either.

I belive there's a difference between gaining a powerup in a fight and *needing *said powerup to win the fight. They pulled out their trumps to end the fight, not because they wouldn't have won without them.


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## Conxc (Jun 29, 2022)

@Lmao frankly, I don't really care about EL comparisons. I'm more interested in that argument of yours that argues parity between current Zoro and Sanji based on Kaku and Jyabura's Doriki.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 29, 2022)

_Mercurial making a case for why Sanji is phisically much stronger when shown to block Zoros 3 sword style swordsmanship with just one leg   _


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Mercurial making a case for why Sanji is phisically much stronger when shown to block Zoros 3 sword style swordsmanship with just one leg  _


You know a fandom is desperate when said fandom needs to use gags as feats 
I guess Nami >>> Luffy Zoro and Sanji, she negged them many times with her bare physical strength


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## Conxc (Jun 29, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> You know a fandom is desperate when said fandom needs to use gags as feats
> I guess Nami >>> Luffy Zoro and Sanji, she negged them many times with her bare physical strength


What do you think Nami's Doriki is?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Lmao (Jun 29, 2022)

Conxc said:


> @Lmao frankly, I don't really care about EL comparisons. I'm more interested in that argument of yours that argues parity between current Zoro and Sanji based on Kaku and Jyabura's Doriki.


When did I say they were equal? My entire point was that the author views them as comparable.

But since you wanna argue current versions, aside from AP what other stat does Zoro outclass Sanji in?


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2022)

Lmao said:


> When did I say they were equal? My entire point was that the author views them as comparable.
> 
> But since you wanna argue current versions, aside from AP what other stat does Zoro outclass Sanji in?


Zoro completely outclasses Sanji in

- Attack power
- Endurance
- Haki (Zoro with Adv CoC, Adv CoA and basic CoO shits on Sanji with no CoC not even the basic one, basic CoA and basic CoO)
- Versatility (Zoro has strong attacks at all ranges, Sanji has zero ranged attacks)

While Sanji has faster movement speed than Zoro but Zoro has better combat speed and reflexes... Sanji has a far tougher body but in a fight Zoro can protect his body with graded swords + CoA + CoC... Sanji can fly but Zoro can move in mid air as well, not to mention that after Zoro defeated King, a flying YC1, in mid air, that really loses every possible relevance



Conxc said:


> What do you think Nami's Doriki is?


She is canonically stronger than them
Gag fights don't lie

Nami >>> Luffy ~ Zoro ~ Sanji


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## Conxc (Jun 29, 2022)

Lmao said:


> When did I say they were equal? My entire point was that the author views them as comparable.
> 
> But since you wanna argue current versions, aside from AP what other stat does Zoro outclass Sanji in?


Clearly you think Doriki means more than it does. You're pretty much arguing that since Kaku and Jyabura have similar Doriki's, they're more or less equals. You are saying that this is a valid measure for Zoro and Sanji's dynamic, so if not parity, what are you arguing using this example?

I've already done this in a couple recent threads and this isn't a Zoro vs Sanji thread, on the surface, at least.


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## Lmao (Jun 29, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I also don't recall Zoro or Sanji being overpowered in a head to head clash by either.



*Spoiler*: _Zoro_ 











*Spoiler*: _Sanji_ 













Conxc said:


> Clearly you think Doriki means more than it does. You're pretty much arguing that since Kaku and Jyabura have similar Doriki's, they're more or less equals. You are saying that this is a valid measure for Zoro and Sanji's dynamic, so if not parity, what are you arguing using this example?


Official Viz says those numbers represent their power level, the chapter itself in which the douriki test is done is literally named "Power Level", clearly there's more to it than just who can bench more.

The one time in the story the author decides to use a power level construct you guys try to act like it's not relevant even though it's the most solid portrayal you can get - directly from the author. 

To be clear none of this suggests Zoro vs Sanji is extreme diff, it is not. But it does suggest they're close enough to give each other a great fight.

The "Zoro low diffs or mid diffs Sanji" nonsense was never a thing in the story - y'all will come to your senses when Sanji defeats an Admiral.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Conxc (Jun 29, 2022)

Lmao said:


> *Spoiler*: _Zoro_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see. Worth noting that they are attacking in their hybrid forms, which their base Doriki values wouldn't reflect. obviously their Doriki is higher than their base values in these exchanges.


Lmao said:


> Official Viz says those numbers represent their power level, the chapter itself in which the douriki test is done is literally named "Power Level", clearly *there's more to it than just who can bench more.*
> 
> The one time in the story the author decides to use a power level construct you guys try to act like it's not relevant even though it's the most solid portrayal you can get - directly from the author.


The official Viz merely translated Doriki as Power level. I'm not understanding, I posted the panels where Oda immediately tells you that Doriki is merely a measure of physical ability, same chapter, viz translation and all, and you're still here saying Doriki means more than that?

You mean where the author also immediately clarifies that this "power level", or "Doriki" literally only measures physical ability without accounting for general fighting style, weapons, devil fruits, Haki, type advantages/disadvantages, or any other external thing that would affect the course of a fight? I'm not understanding what's so difficult to grasp here that we're only talking physical strength when discussing Doriki, as explicitly stated in the manga.


Lmao said:


> To be clear none of this suggests Zoro vs Sanji is extreme diff, it is not. But it does suggest they're close enough to give each other a great fight.
> 
> The "Zoro low diffs or mid diffs Sanji" nonsense was never a thing in the story - y'all will come to your senses when Sanji defeats an Admiral.


As it stands, there's a lot favoring Zoro mid diffing Sanji. Could this change in the future? Sure, but the feats are not there for him. We've seen this in several threads over the last month or two, kinda like a renaissance. Asking Sanji fans for feats and portrayal to back up their arguments has been...*chef's kiss.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Great Potato (Jun 29, 2022)

Kaku and Jabra are very close in power; according to the doriki Jabra was 99% of Kaku's strength, that's clearly in extreme-diff range. They have pretty much the same tools but with Kaku being more offense oriented Rankyaku specialist while Jabra is more defense oriented Tekkai specialist.

I don't believe that those two are reflective of the dynamic of every Zoro & Sanji opponent though. Ryuuma was a far more dangerous threat than Absalom as a fighter, likewise with Mr. 1 to Mr. 2 in which instance Daz Bones was placed on an entirely different level of Impel Down to sell the difference in tier. In the case of Arlong Park I'd argue Sanji actually had the stronger opponent of the two with Kuroobi, who was billed as Arlong's top enforcer and highest bounty subordinate. 

How the opponents end up stacking up is something that seems to vary from arc to arc, so I don't feel one can highlight a specific example and call it the rule.

Reactions: Like 4 | Neutral 3


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## Kroczilla (Jun 29, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> I don't believe that those two are reflective of the dynamic of every Zoro & Sanji opponent though. Ryuuma was a far more dangerous threat than Absalom as a fighter, likewise with Mr. 1 to Mr. 2 in which instance Daz Bones was placed on an entirely different level of Impel Down to sell the difference in tier


The thing though is Sanji had an objectively easier time dealing with either Mr 2 or Absalom than Zoro had with either Mr. 1 or Ryuuma. That despite some "handicap" of sorts which Oda inserted to make the fight more challenging for Sanji (Mr. 2 turning to women effectively made Sanji unable to hit him and Sanji was protecting Nami from Absalom who could turn invisible).

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Kroczilla (Jun 30, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Would you say that the Doriki of Kaku and Jyabura is a valid choice of measurement for Zoro and Sanji now?


With the addition of haki and "science power", no. The variety in skill is too much for Douriki to serve as the objective measure it once was.

Reactions: Like 2


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Nah current Luffy > Kaido > G4 Luffy > BM clearly


Oda Kaido and Big Mom are near equals 

Fans I don't think so

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I see. Worth noting that they are attacking in their hybrid forms, which their base Doriki values wouldn't reflect. obviously their Doriki is higher than their base values in these exchanges.
> 
> The official Viz merely translated Doriki as Power level. I'm not understanding, I posted the panels where Oda immediately tells you that Doriki is merely a measure of physical ability, same chapter, viz translation and all, and you're still here saying Doriki means more than that?
> 
> ...


You mean the protrayal of Queen being  close to king making Sanji close to Zoro ?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ludi (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Oda Kaido and Big Mom are near equals


Nah that's where you go wrong. No worries. Happens to the best


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Nah that's where you go wrong. No worries. Happens to the best


Kaido and Big Mom stalemated eachother for giggles ? 

Throughout wano people calling her another Kaido means nothing ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ludi (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Kaido and Big Mom stalemated eachother for giggles ?


She didn't push kaido to be serious. 




MrPopo said:


> Throughout wano people calling her another Kaido means nothing ?



People can be a bad narrative. King, Franky, Robin, jimbei all kinda clowned her to some degree and her best feat is achieved by Base Luffy


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## A Optimistic (Jun 30, 2022)

Kaido can mid diff Big Mom.

Reactions: Agree 1 | GODA 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

Ludi said:


> She didn't push kaido to be serious.


And Kaido didn't push big mom to be serious. 


Ludi said:


> People can be a bad narrative. King, Franky, Robin, jimbei all kinda clowned her to some degree and her best feat is achieved by Base Luffy


The scabbards where clowning Kaido  and I don't see how that takes away from those statements of comparing her to Kaido. 

Futhermore big mom enduraned puncture Willie where as an attack on a similar level KO Kaido


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## Bash24 (Jun 30, 2022)

Lmao said:


> Are you really going to argue using their opponents dourikis is not a valid way to gauge their strength? Cmon now. Zoro and Sanji wouldn't lose clashes if their physical stats were much better, nor would they both receive a powerup to end the fight.
> 
> 
> Sanji performed equally well against an opponent that was as physically powerful as Zoro's, you just can't handle the idea the cook has comparable stats to the grandmaster. Take it up with Oda, I don't write the manga.


A giraffe is a much more physically powerful animal than a wolf. Kaku was the one who had the keys to Robins cuffs. Not Jabra. Kaku was the one who was promoted to CP0 along with Lucci post skip. Not Jabra. Also Kaku is a swordsman. How do you factor that Into douriki? How do you factor in skill and hax?


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## Ludi (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> And Kaido didn't push big mom to be serious.


She had her best feat against kaido


MrPopo said:


> The scabbards where clowning Kaido and I don't see how that takes away from those statements of comparing her to Kaido.


Kaido took out the scabbards.


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

Ludi said:


> She had her best feat against kaido


And she wasn't serious as she didn't have zues nor did she use any life span against Kaido. 

Then there's comment of big mom saying she hadn't felt that much pain in decades of law and kids awakening and this was after she had fought Kaido. 


Ludi said:


> Kaido took out the scabbards.


You don't think big mom can't take out Robin and Jinbe and king


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## A Optimistic (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> And she wasn't serious as she didn't have zues nor did she use any life span against Kaido.
> 
> Then there's comment of big mom saying she hadn't felt that much pain in decades of law and kids awakening and this was after she had fought Kaido.
> 
> You don't think big mom can't take out Robin and Jinbe and king



proof that big mom can handle g4 snakeman or give g5 luffy a fight?

 

show me the CoO feats of big mom that shows she can even react to snakeman the way Kaido did?


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## Ludi (Jun 30, 2022)

All in all she was mainly shown as a fraud.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> proof that big mom can handle g4 snakeman or give g5 luffy a fight?


Big Mom can handle puncture Willie, g4 snake man won't be an issue for her.

If Boro breath and Kaidos wind scythes can hurt G5 then napoleon with prom can do the same thing  


A Optimistic said:


> show me the CoO feats of big mom that shows she can even react to snakeman the way Kaido did?


Why does she need CoO feats when she can just tank through it


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## A Optimistic (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Why does she need CoO feats when she can just tank through it


 
she can’t even tank a metal bull without her wrist breaking

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> she can’t even tank a metal bull without her wrist breaking


That metal bull is stronger than people give it credit for

Reactions: Agree 1


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## A Optimistic (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> That metal bull is stronger than people give it credit for



stronger than the attacks Kaido was taking?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> You mean the protrayal of Queen being  close to king making Sanji close to Zoro ?


You can keep saying it Popo. That won’t make it true.


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

Conxc said:


> You can keep saying it Popo. That won’t make it true.


What diff do you think king needs to defeat Queen?


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## Conxc (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> What diff do you think king needs to defeat Queen?


Mid diff. Low end of high diff on a bad day for King.


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

Conxc said:


> *Mid diff*. Low end of high diff on a bad day for King.


If that was the case then king would have been singled out more whenever he was grouped with Queen.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> stronger than the attacks Kaido was taking?


Yep

Reactions: Funny 3


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Oda Kaido and Big Mom are near equals
> 
> Fans I don't think so


oda technically said pre-g5 Luffy is stronger than her


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

xmysticgohanx said:


> oda technically said pre-g5 Luffy is stronger than her


Where?


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Where?


when kaidou got drunk. He said: "It's a sign that i've accepted you!! I wonder how long it's been since I fought someone who could truly go toe to toe with me!!"

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

xmysticgohanx said:


> when kaidou got drunk. He said: "It's a sign that i've accepted you!! I wonder how long it's been since I fought someone who could truly go toe to toe with me!!"


Then we have big mom saying it's been decades since she felt as much pain from kidd and law


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Then we have big mom saying it's been decades since she felt as much pain from kidd and law


well technically Kaidou didnt accept her enough to go drunk mode which boosts his haki. didnt use flame dragon either


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## Conxc (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> If that was the case then king would have been singled out more whenever he was grouped with Queen.


But Oda did single King out. A few times, actually. Y’all just won’t accept that  .

King has that special right hand man dynamic with Kaido. Has been acknowledged by Kaido as an individual. Queen has had no direct interaction with Kaido, not even by flashback. Kaido also directly acknowledged King’s strength.

Queen himself took time out of his fight with Sanji to brag about King, even stating that Zoro had no chance against him. Zoro, who he himself was intimidated by. King has not reciprocated those sentiments.

There are definitely ways that Oda has separated King from Queen. It’s always just a matter of those ways being ignored in favor of same panel appearance. Even with how they matchup. Queen is an extremely slow character who hardly ever blocks or dodges attacks. His range and mobility are pretty limited, his Haki is suspect. King is an extremely lethal, close-long ranged fighter, high mobility, high AP, impressive Haki by virtue of being able to fight so well against Zoro, who we know is an extremely proficient Haki user. King is fast and strong enough to beat Queen without leaving flame mode if he wanted to. What’s Queen’s answer to getting hit by King’s Dragon techs, which are as hot as magma? How many of those can he realistically survive, because chances are, they will connect.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 3


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## TheWiggian (Jun 30, 2022)

Conxc said:


> But Oda did single King out. A few times, actually. Y’all just won’t accept that  .
> 
> King has that special right hand man dynamic with Kaido. Has been acknowledged by Kaido as an individual. Queen has had no direct interaction with Kaido, not even by flashback. Kaido also directly acknowledged King’s strength.
> 
> ...



Queen nearly died in the crossfire between Zoro and King. So he is sub bozo tier while King is just bozo tier.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

Conxc said:


> But Oda did single King out. A few times, actually. Y’all just won’t accept that  .
> 
> King has that special right hand man dynamic with Kaido. Has been acknowledged by Kaido as an individual. Queen has had no direct interaction with Kaido, not even by flashback. Kaido also directly acknowledged King’s strength.


Kaido acknowledges all the Calamities we already knew this from Jack 


Conxc said:


> Queen himself took time out of his fight with Sanji to brag about King, even stating that Zoro had no chance against him. Zoro, who he himself was intimidated by. King has not reciprocated those sentiments.


Yea kings stronger than but he's not in another tier. 

Yet after this we still have Marco talking about how holding off king and queen is difficult, Zoro saying neither path to the rooftop is easy, the Oden flashback hyping up king, queen and thier bounties being comparable and both being mere commanders 


Conxc said:


> There are definitely ways that Oda has separated King from Queen. It’s always just a matter of those ways being ignored in favor of same panel appearance. Even with how they matchup. Queen is an extremely slow character who hardly ever blocks or dodges attacks. His range and mobility are pretty limited, his Haki is suspect. King is an extremely lethal, close-long ranged fighter, high mobility, high AP, impressive Haki by virtue of being able to fight so well against Zoro, who we know is an extremely proficient Haki user.


This is just overrating Zoro and underselling Sanji. You perceive Zoro to be on another level and downplay sanji which leads to you overrating king and downplaying Queen 


Conxc said:


> King is fast and strong enough to beat Queen without leaving flame mode if he wanted to.


Baseless 


Conxc said:


> What’s Queen’s answer to getting hit by King’s Dragon techs, which are as hot as magma? How many of those can he realistically survive, because chances are, they will connect.


Same way king survives Queen's lazers and plagues

Reactions: Like 2


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Queen nearly died in the crossfire between Zoro and King. So he is sub bozo tier while King is just bozo tier.


This is nearly dying now?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Mercurial (Jun 30, 2022)

Conxc said:


> But Oda did single King out. A few times, actually. Y’all just won’t accept that  .
> 
> King has that special right hand man dynamic with Kaido. Has been acknowledged by Kaido as an individual. Queen has had no direct interaction with Kaido, not even by flashback. Kaido also directly acknowledged King’s strength.
> 
> ...


But all of that doesn't mean anything!
Same panel! Together!
Mentioned together!

Well maybe the fact that Kaido acknowledged King's strength and made him his right hand man because of that should tell something, especially when the author instead never had Kaido acknowledge Queen's strength...

But hey, do you really want to compare with appearing together and being mentioned together? And powerscaling heights?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> This is nearly dying now?



The page you posted confirms it btw, sliced neck = dead thank you, therefore yeah nearly died as i said

Reactions: Funny 1 | Creative 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> This is nearly dying now?




King was about to solo the whole Livefloor.
Everybody nearly died.





#6thYonko

Reactions: Funny 3


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## TheWiggian (Jun 30, 2022)

Iam glad you guys finally acknowledge King's real strength as a bozo


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> The page you posted confirms it btw, sliced neck = dead thank you, therefore yeah nearly died as i said


We're using wishing now? 

I guess the scabbards are Kaido level because they want to take Kaido's head


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## TheWiggian (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> We're using wishing now?
> 
> I guess the scabbards are Kaido level because they want to take Kaido's head



We take those things at face value like Queen and King appearing together, shouldn't be new for the likes of you


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> We take those things at face value like Queen and King appearing together, shouldn't be new for the likes of you


Where did I say that


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## Mylesime (Jun 30, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> We take those things at face value like Queen and King appearing together   *getting their asses whooped in comparable fashion* shouldn't be new for the likes of you



FIFY.
You guys need to stop acting like Marco vs Bozos or GB Vs Bozos never happened.






Standing next to each other?
The fuck are you guys talking about?
Two of King's  toughest fights of his life?
Side by side with his boy.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Where did I say that



Stop pretending you didn't, everyone has access to the search function 



Mylesime said:


> FIFY.
> You guys need to stop acting like Marco vs Bozos or GB Vs Bozos never happened.



If you stop pretending that Queen would survive a neck slice instead of a fat butt slice as king says


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## Mercurial (Jun 30, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> FIFY.
> You guys need to stop acting like Marco vs Bozos or GB Vs Bozos never happened.


Akainu also negged Marco and Vista the same, "mentioning them together" as Haki users that bothered him, without any distinction
I guess Marco and Vista are equals now

I mean, remember the end of the Cell Game when Gohan and Cell were doing the Kamehameha struggle?
Piccolo, Krillin, Tien and Yamcha attacked Cell from behind/from the sides 
Piccolo was a thousand times stronger than Krillin and the others... and still did absolute jack shit, exactly like Krillin and the others, nothing better
Does that make Piccolo equal with them?
Or simply, against someone who is much much stronger, there's no difference? A 10 and a 5 would still amount to nothing against a 50

Do you think that Chopper and Franky vs Sanji would end in Sanji stomping both quickly without much difference because he is simply much stronger than them, or not? Would that make Chopper comparable to Franky?

Do you realize that 99% of your arguments aren't trying to make Sanji better or Queen better, but more a desperate attempt to downplay Zoro to Sanji's level and King to Queen's level?

Reactions: Like 2


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Stop pretending you didn't, everyone has access to the search function
> 
> 
> 
> If you stop pretending that Queen would survive a neck slice instead of a fat butt slice as king says


Go ahead and qoute those posts I also find it laughable if considering you were leading the king is a top tier charge


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## Mylesime (Jun 30, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> If you stop pretending that Queen would survive a neck slice instead of a fat butt slice as king says



We're counting fanfics as feats now?
Basically :
"Have you guys seen that shit that never happened".




You're a legend.
Never change.


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## Lmao (Jun 30, 2022)

Make sure to stick around when Sanji faces off against an Admiral. Words cannot describe how ready I am for the inevitable "X Admiral is much stronger than Y Admiral".

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Mylesime (Jun 30, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> Akainu also negged Marco and Vista the same, "mentioning them together" as Haki users that bothered him, without any distinction
> I guess Marco and Vista are equals now



Stopped right there.
False equivalence.
Aka inu did not defeat Marco and Vista.
Best case scenario for King and queen?
They're in jail. They lost, conclusive fight, not a clash......
If your previous headcanons don't allow you guys to see the difference..... it's quite severe.
And you want to know something?
Does not look like Marco could even low diff Vista based on what he pulled off on Marineford (those feats and that portrayal shits on Crakers and Jack's exploits....), something some are shamelessly basically claiming for the two calamoties.

You guys are losing control, frantically throwing shit at the wall, hoping it will stick.
Rather than simply aknowledging that King would high diff Queen.
Not gonna lie it's quite entertaining.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## TheWiggian (Jun 30, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> Akainu also negged Marco and Vista the same, "mentioning them together" as Haki users that bothered him, without any distinction
> I guess *Marco and Vista are equals now*



They are  

Although once Vista acquired the WSM title he left Marco in the dust.



Mercurial said:


> I mean, remember the end of the Cell Game when Gohan and Cell were doing the Kamehameha struggle?
> Piccolo, Krillin, Tien and Yamcha attacked Cell from behind/from the sides
> Piccolo was a thousand times stronger than Krillin and the others... and still did absolute jack shit, exactly like Krillin and the others, nothing better
> Does that make Piccolo equal with them?
> Or simply, against someone who is much much stronger, there's no difference? A 10 and a 5 would still amount to nothing against a 50



That was anime only.



MrPopo said:


> Go ahead and qoute those posts I also find it laughable if considering you were leading the king is a top tier charge





> Why did Ryo group Queen and King together as mere commanders doesn't he know King is the Unofficial WSC and Low Top tier



Took like a second 

Leading top tier King charge? 



Mylesime said:


> We're counting fanfics as feats now?
> Basically :
> "Have you guys seen that shit that never happened".
> 
> ...



Won't change just for you 

Will always be there when no supernova has a guarantee at beating Sanji moment


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> They are
> 
> Although once Vista acquired the WSM title he left Marco in the dust.
> 
> ...


Is that the best you can find a shit post about making fun of the king is top tier agenda


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## Mylesime (Jun 30, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Won't change just for you
> 
> Will always be there when no supernova has a chance at beating Sanji moment








Who ever said that?
Show us the proofs.
Wild imagination, i'll give you that.
Creating feats and arguments.....





I do remember that many folks were actually claiming that the Supernovas were almost all stronger than Sanji tough .





Shout out to Hawkins, Apoo, Capone, Drake or Killer......


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## TheWiggian (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Is that the best you can find a shit post about making fun of the king is top tier agenda



Guess i caught you with your pants down:

We take those things at face value like Queen and King appearing together, shouldn't be new for the likes of you 



MrPopo said:


> Where did I say that





MrPopo said:


> Why did Ryo group Queen and King together as mere commanders doesn't he know King is the Unofficial WSC and Low Top tier



And found a funny King top tier quote from you too, something you accused me of on top of that.





Mylesime said:


> Who ever said that?
> Show us the proofs.
> Wild imagination, i'll give you that.
> Creating feats and arguments.....
> ...



Left the link for everyone to see it in all it's glory.* No SN with the exception of Luffy is guaranteed to win against Sanji.*


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Guess i caught you with your pants down:
> 
> We take those things at face value like Queen and King appearing together, shouldn't be new for the likes of you
> 
> ...


How is that shit post the equivalent of using king and queen appearing together as an argument  

You truly are desperate I don't blame you after that king crash


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## MrPopo (Jun 30, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> The shit post excuse


Chapter 1053 must have really bad for you if you can't even tell what is and isn't a joke


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## TheWiggian (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Chapter 1053 must have really bad for you if you can't even tell what is and isn't a joke



Just happened to be the first quote that i didn't need to scroll past, don't take it too seriously


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## Mylesime (Jun 30, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> *No SN with the exception of Luffy is guaranteed to win against Sanji.*







TheWiggian said:


> Will always be there when no supernova has a guarantee at beating Sanji




These two sentences don't mean the same thing.
And you edited your post, luckily for me I did quote you before answering you.
Otherwise I could have thought I misconstrued what you said.
Nope you're just as disingenuous as ever. That's what you initially claimed:


"*No* *supernova has a chance at beating Sanji moment*"


Even further from my initial stance.

You should be ashamed..... You had me confused for a minute.


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## TheWiggian (Jun 30, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> These two sentences don't mean the same thing.
> And you edited your post, luckily for me I did quote you before answering you.
> Otherwise I could have thought I misconstrued what you said.
> Nope you're just as disingenuous as ever. That's what you initially claimed:
> ...



Yep because it was not about chance, Mr. Popo quoted it first so you were not even needed, but that's also something i don't need to hide anyway. Fact remains no SN is guaranteed to beat Sanji

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 30, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Yep because it was not about chance, Mr. Popo quoted it first so you were not even needed, but that's also something i don't need to hide anyway. Fact remains no SN is guaranteed to beat Sanji



Dude, stay focused.
This whole thread is another version of the main disagreement between the legion and the Vinsmoke sisterhood.
Aka Sanji can fuck with Zoro, Pirate King wings.
If Sanji can fuck with Zoro, he can fuck with any other SNs except Luffy.
We've been claiming this shit for decades.




Killer, Hawkins, Capone, Apoo or Drake have been dealt with.
Next step, Zoro, Law and Kid.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## TheWiggian (Jun 30, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Dude, stay focused.
> This whole thread is another version of the main disagreement between the legion and the Vinsmoke sisterhood.
> Aka Sanji can fuck with Zoro, Pirate King wings.
> If Sanji can fuck with Zoro, he can fuck with any other SNs except Luffy.
> ...



They are not guaranteed to win against Sanji i know, i read that post over and over too

Reactions: Like 1


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## Great Potato (Jun 30, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Left the link for everyone to see it in all it's glory.* No SN with the exception of Luffy is guaranteed to win against Sanji.*



That Killer vs Sanji thread was a classic, fun times.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Jun 30, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> That Killer vs Sanji thread was a classic, fun times.



It's funny that it maily remained the same. The top SN's are above Sanji while the weaker ones are below him. So we didn't really got anywhere.


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## Kroczilla (Jun 30, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> It's funny that it maily remained the same. The top SN's are above Sanji while the weaker ones are below him. So we didn't really got anywhere.


Time was that Killer was considered to be among the top SNs. Wonder what happened?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 30, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Time was that Killer was considered to be among the top SNs. Wonder what happened?



Sanji shattering tier lists every single year.









"Nothing has changed"


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## TheWiggian (Jun 30, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Time was that Killer was considered to be among the top SNs. Wonder what happened?



What did happen? Killer is now in the same boat as Sanji was, we don't know his upper limit, he couldn't go all out against Hawkins but still utterly crushed him in the end.


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## Furinji Saiga (Jun 30, 2022)

Ah yes the classic Sanji's opponent is 99.999999 percent power of the opponent Zoro faced. 

I could have sworn it was King who is the LEADER of the All Stars and Kaido's right hand man.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 30, 2022)

Furinji Saiga said:


> Ah yes the classic Sanji's opponent is 99.999999 percent power of the opponent Zoro faced.
> 
> I could have sworn it was King who is the LEADER of the All Stars and Kaido's right hand man.



_Not in the manga he's only called an All Star like Queen or a bozo commander  _


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## Mercurial (Jun 30, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Not in the manga he's only called an All Star like Queen or a bozo commander  _

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 30, 2022)

_Kings a stronger name than Albert but he was stil just Albert in the end  

Hes never called the "Leader of the All Stars" all of his title cards just say "All Star" like Queen _


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## Mercurial (Jun 30, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Kings a stronger name than Albert but he was stil just Albert in the end
> 
> Hes never called the "Leader of the All Stars" all of his title cards just say "All Star" like Queen _


King's Vivre Card literally states that he is Kaido's right hand man and the leader of the All Stars plus the second strongest after Kaido

Reactions: Like 3


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 30, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> King's Vivre Card literally states that he is Kaido's right hand man and the leader of the All Stars plus the second strongest after Kaido



_He's the first to join.

Manga never calls him "Leader of the All Stars", he is just an All Star in all title cards like Queen.

Also no one in the manga calls him stronger than Queen. We just agree that he is the stronger of the two, even if they are pretty much on the same tier  _


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## Mercurial (Jun 30, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _He's the first to join._


Come on. We were told in every possible way that Beast Pirates run not on meritocracy and that if you want, you can challenge your superiors and take their place of you are better than them. It was literally stated and showed.
King was the leader of the All Stars and Kaido's right hand man because he was the strongest after Kaido. No one could compare to him, or they would have took his place if they could.

And I guess no one more than Queen would have liked to do so. But... he didn't. Instead he stops his own fight to give hype and praise to King. 
King is on another level, just deal with it.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Manga never calls him "Leader of the All Stars", he is just an All Star in all title cards like Queen._


I'll trust the databook more than your excuses.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Also no one in the manga calls him stronger than Queen. We just agree that he is the stronger of the two, even if they are pretty much on the same tier  _


Fine, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lmao (Jun 30, 2022)

Powerscaling King's name as if Kaido didn't give Queen and Jack card themed names of their own. which by extension means he handpicked Queen as well - that or Queen challenged and earned the spot as one of Kaido's most valued men.

_"kAiDo nEVEr aCkNoWLeDgEd Queen"  _


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## Conxc (Jun 30, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Kaido acknowledges all the Calamities we already knew this from Jack


Sure, but he has singled King out and has a much more prolific dynamic with *King *than anyone else.

I also won’t shy away from pointing out how Jack is brought up when it conveniences you guy. You guys always underrate Jack and do the same that you accuse me of by implying that Queen is on another level from Jack. Jack is often treated as if he hasn’t been acknowledged in any capacity by Kaido so that you can push the King-Queen agenda. 


MrPopo said:


> Yea kings stronger than but he's not in another tier.


I don’t necessarily consider a mid diff a difference of tiers. 


MrPopo said:


> Yet after this we still have Marco talking about how holding off king and queen is difficult, Zoro saying neither path to the rooftop is easy, the Oden flashback hyping up king, queen and thier bounties being comparable and both being mere commanders


Why wouldn’t he though? It’s a 2 v 1 and they’re both strong opponents. No one said Queen isn’t strong. Him losing to King mid diff doesn’t clash with any one of those statements. Again, you’re putting this portrayal in a pedestal and ignoring the times that King has been purposely separated from his All Star counterparts. 


MrPopo said:


> This is just overrating Zoro and underselling Sanji. You perceive Zoro to be on another level and downplay sanji which leads to you overrating king and downplaying Queen


It really isn’t through. RT Zoro had someone the best feats on the RT, and that was against Yonkou. He displayed top tier Haki, defenses, AP, reactions, etc. he left the RT and King was looking more than impressive against that guy. That is pure King hype, despite the forum’s penchant for not elevating King but choosing to downplay Zoro and claim hind RT feats are outliers instead. Again, the one that had something to prove all this time was *Sanji*, and by virtue of being his opponent, Queen. 


MrPopo said:


> Baseless


If you say so. Queen can’t do anything to King in this form. 


MrPopo said:


> Same way king survives Queen's lazers and plagues


Yeah, he can easily survive those in flame mode. Queen has to hit him. This isn’t the argument that you think it is, especially not when you k ow Queen has no answer for King’s flame dragon techs. King would make a new dyno skin gimp suit out of Queen.


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## Conxc (Jun 30, 2022)

Furinji Saiga said:


> Ah yes the classic Sanji's opponent is 99.999999 percent power of the opponent Zoro faced.
> 
> I could have sworn it was King who is the LEADER of the All Stars and Kaido's right hand man.


Doesn’t count. They once poured cups of coffee from *the same *coffee mug .GG


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 1, 2022)

Mercurial said:


> Come on. We were told in every possible way that Beast Pirates run not on meritocracy and that if you want, you can challenge your superiors and take their place of you are better than them. It was literally stated and showed.
> King was the leader of the All Stars and Kaido's right hand man because he was the strongest after Kaido. No one could compare to him, or they would have took his place if they could.
> 
> And I guess no one more than Queen would have liked to do so. But... he didn't. Instead he stops his own fight to give hype and praise to King.
> ...


_
F6 can challenge for the highest position of All Star and they can pick any of the All Stars as their opponent to obtain that position. 

There is no higher position then being an All Star, once you get that rank the only way to get another All Star to take orders from you is to make them fear or look up to you.

Something Jack did when it comes to both King and Queen, and Queen explicitely did not when it comes to King .

Too bad no one told Oda that Queen can't compare cuz he spent most of their presence in the manga comparing the two through shared hype, comparable bounties, or praise/ trash talk they received for their performances against the same opponents _


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## Chrono (Jul 1, 2022)

Ryou focussed more on Queen whilst King got taken out in the background lol.

Reactions: Creative 1 | GODA 1


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## TheWiggian (Jul 1, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _F6 can challenge for the highest position of All Star and they can pick any of the All Stars as their opponent to obtain that position.
> 
> There is no higher position then being an All Star, once you get that rank the only way to get another All Star to take orders from you is to make them fear or look up to you.
> 
> ...



Too bad Oda choose to show us only King having interaction's with Kaido, appearing together in both flashbacks aswell as praising his strength. Kaido also praised Jack's strength, he didn't praise Queen on the other hand. Then you have Queen trash talking King but secretly respecting his strength to hype him as if he alrdy tried to beat him but nothing worked during his fight with Sanji and a secondary source clearly puts King above Queen too. Then you are ignoring the fact that King is concealing his Lunarian traits from the world government where a single tip-off rewards you with 100 M, so if they'd knew his true face his bounty would be even higher.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 1, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Too bad Oda choose to show us only King having interaction's with Kaido, appearing together in both flashbacks aswell as praising his strength. Kaido also praised Jack's strength, he didn't praise Queen on the other hand. Then you have Queen trash talking King but secretly respecting his strength to hype him as if he alrdy tried to beat him but nothing worked during his fight with Sanji and a secondary source clearly puts King above Queen too. Then you are ignoring the fact that King is concealing his Lunarian traits from the world government where a single tip-off rewards you with 100 M, so if they'd knew his true face his bounty would be even higher.


_
And in spite of all that Oda pushed the two together from the very first to the very last panel. From their introduction of them getting hyped at Jack's expense to them being turned into hype tools for Green Bull.

It's been 99% King and Queen, then a sprinkle of King getting a bit of his own thing. That's why they are comparable and on the same tier although not equal to eachother   _


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## TheWiggian (Jul 1, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _And in spite of all that Oda pushed the two together from the very first to the very last panel. From their introduction of them getting hyped at Jack's expense to them being turned into hype tools for Green Bull.
> 
> It's been 99% King and Queen, then a sprinkle of King getting a bit of his own thing. That's why they are comparable and on the same tier although not equal to eachother  _



Why didn't despite all that Kaido never praised Queen?  

Why despite all that Queen never had any interactions with Kaido when even the likes of jack got them? 

Why despite all that Queen didn't even get a little piece of the cake even in a secondary source and was grouped with Jack instead? 

Why despite even King's concealed persona Queen has a lower bounty?


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 1, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Why didn't despite all that Kaido never praised Queen?
> 
> Why despite all that Queen never had any interactions with Kaido when even the likes of jack got them?
> 
> ...



_Why would he need to get that when Jack was used as a hype tool for King and Queen ever since their introduction ?  

Why would he need secondary sources when the actual manga puts King and Queen on the same page sharing hype and feats more than any other two characters post time skip ? 

If it's King's concealed persona that puts him in the same bounty bracket as Queen, then you have to ask yourself why Oda was so set on giving them both 1,3x bounties, and separate the two from Jack by over 300 mil 


Maybe it' because, you know, as was the case from their very first to their very last panel in the manga, he intended for the readers to perceive the two as very much comparable, and a significant step above the mammoth boy _

Reactions: Like 2


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## TheWiggian (Jul 1, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Why would he need to get that when Jack was used as a hype tool for King and Queen ever since their introduction ?  _



He views them as big bros because of the age difference  



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Why would he need secondary sources when the actual manga puts King and Queen on the same page sharing hype and feats more than any other two characters post time skip ? _



So you have nothing 



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _If it's King's concealed persona that puts him in the same bounty bracket as Queen, then you have to ask yourself why Oda was so set on giving them both 1,3x bounties, and separate the two from Jack by over 300 mil _



I know that the single tip-off of a lunarian is worth 100 M. So i can be damn sure his bounty would be far higher if they knew who he was.





Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Maybe it' because, you know, as was the case from their very first to their very last panel in the manga, he intended for the readers to perceive the two as very much comparable, and a significant step above the mammoth boy _



Or maybe King is above Queen and the latter was used as a hype tool for him just like Jack was for King and Queen which is supported by another official source and shits on your headcanon?


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 1, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> He views them as big bros because of the age difference
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_He's afraid and will not talk back to them and that was used to hype them both up for their introduction, contrasting with how both King and Queen show no fear towards eachother and trash talk eachother back and forth.

Only the actual manga  


Tbf a tip off of 100 mil sounds reasonable if you are willing to pay 1,39 bil for King's head. Kaido also told him that he will not get captured again as long as he's under him, so this whole "his bounty would be higher"  thing is very speculative. CP0 had dealings with Kaido and have seen King, his wings, fire abilities, so on. 

Heck, if King being a Lunarian was such a big discovery for the WG, Green Bull would have at least paid some attention to him and said something about it instead of calling him a mere bozo commander while giving more attention to Queen  


King and Queen are comparable, with King being the stronger of the two. That's how they've been portrayed through out their entire presence in the manga, and not a single argument you've made actually pushes for more than that _


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## TheWiggian (Jul 1, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _He's afraid and will not talk back to them and that was used to hype them both up for their introduction, contrasting with how both King and Queen show no fear towards eachother and trash talk eachother back and forth._



Jabra didn't show fear of Lucci either, doesn't mean anything.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Only the actual manga _



So why did Queen never have the similiar portrayal with Kaido like King got then? Manga been clear on this one i believe  



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Tbf a tip off of 100 mil sounds reasonable if you are willing to pay 1,39 bil for King's head. Kaido also told him that he will not get captured again as long as he's under him, so this whole "his bounty would be higher"  thing is very speculative. CP0 had dealings with Kaido and have seen King, his wings, fire abilities, so on. _



If King was so safe why would he wear a suit that conceals it? Something's not adding up with your excuse. 



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Heck, if King being a Lunarian was such a big discovery for the WG, Green Bull would have at least paid some attention to him and said something about it instead of calling him a mere bozo commander while giving more attention to Queen _



Does Ryokugyu even know he is lunarian? And why would the navy be wary of world governments schemes?



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _King and Queen are comparable, with King being the stronger of the two. That's how they've been portrayed through out their entire presence in the manga, and not a single argument you've made actually pushes for more than that _



Yep King > Queen, he proved so more than once, not a single argument you provided pushes for more than that and definitely doesn't prove they're exactly in the same tier. A_t this point the only reason to do that would be agenda purposes _


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 1, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Jabra didn't show fear of Lucci either, doesn't mean anything.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_Except the Jabra and Kaku here are King and Queen and they even share the same dynamic 

It means something when it's Oda hyping them up for their introduction by contrasting them with the third All Star. Showing the two to be comparable to eachother much more so than to Jack.

Queen doesn't need to have as close of a relationship with Kaido as King to justify their entire presence in the manga pushing King and Queen together as comparable 

Maybe because he could attract more attention than just the WG knowing about it but leaving him alone because he's got Kaido's protection and they have deals with eachother.

GB would know if Oda thought it's important to show that others just now found out that King is a Lunarian. He had CP0 on Wano after King's defeat with eyes on King's fight reporting on it, and had Green Bull capture King. Plenty of opportunity to highlight how him being a Lunarian was news to any of them, but it was entirely ignored as if everyone was already informed and were not surprised by it. All King got was the bozo commander treatment 

Comparable with one of them being slightly stronger. Shared hype and feats from their very first to their very last panel more so than any other pair of characters post time skip _


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## TheWiggian (Jul 1, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Except the Jabra and Kaku here are King and Queen and they even share the same dynamic _



But they did. They were bickering too   



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _It means something when it's Oda hyping them up for their introduction by contrasting them with the third All Star. Showing the two to be comparable to eachother much more so than to Jack._



Yes Queen is closer to King than Jack is to them, no one denied that here. 



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Queen doesn't need to have as close of a relationship with Kaido as King to justify their entire presence in the manga pushing King and Queen together as comparable _



Appearance together and dynamic means everything here. King is getting grouped with Kaido while Queen does not. 



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Maybe because he could attract more attention than just the WG knowing about it but leaving him alone because he's got Kaido's protection and they have deals with eachother._



_Or maybe you just made that up to suit your agenda. 
_


Sir Curlyhat said:


> _GB would know if Oda thought it's important to show that others just now found out that King is a Lunarian. He had CP0 on Wano after King's defeat with eyes on King's fight reporting on it, and had Green Bull capture King. Plenty of opportunity to highlight how him being a Lunarian was news to any of them, but it was entirely ignored as if everyone was already informed and were not surprised by it. All King got was the bozo commander treatment _



The FA doesn't even know the secret military might of the Samurai on Wano yet you outright lie to me that Ryokugyu, a new admiral knows of the existence of the extinct lunarians? 





Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Comparable with one of them being slightly stronger. Shared hype and feats from their very first to their very last panel more so than any other pair of characters post time skip _



Shared hype, yet Queen himself hypes King beyond.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 1, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> But they did. They were bickering too
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_King and Queen are grouped as peers while King is a kid saved by Kaido and taken under his protection  


Or maybe you need some evidence before arguing that the WG, the one's who exterminated the Lunarians, had no idea what King is, when the likes of Big Mom and Marco could almost immediately guess just by looking at him based on mere rumors about the Lunarians 


Hypes King beyond Zoro's ability to defeat him, as he was hyping himself beyond Sanji's ability to defeat him because he is a modified human that even the likes of Vegapunk could not create _


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## bil02 (Jul 1, 2022)

They are close if you think Rooftop Zoro loses to Queen.
Coc coating Zoro low diffs with one of his high end attacks since Queen doesn't dodge and basic Coo locates his invisible form since Sanji(no confirmed advanced Coo) could do it.

King and Queen is a high diff based on portrayal but matchup-wise,it looks like a wash as that would just be King landing beatings on Queen who never bothers to dodge.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 1, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _King and Queen are grouped as peers while King is a kid saved by Kaido and taken under his protection  _



Because he is a lunarian. We finally crossed that bridge.   



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Or maybe you need some evidence before arguing that the WG, the one's who exterminated the Lunarians, had no idea what King is, when the likes of Big Mom and Marco could almost immediately guess just by looking at him based on mere rumors about the Lunarians _



Because he heard stories from pops, someone who likely knows even about laughtale from Roger. 



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Hypes King beyond Zoro's ability to defeat him, as he was hyping himself beyond Sanji's ability to defeat him because he is a modified human that even the likes of Vegapunk could not create _



Yep and one required an ability that only a handful of the very strongest can use to defeat, the other not.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 1, 2022)

bil02 said:


> They are close if you think Rooftop Zoro loses to Queen.
> Coc coating Zoro low diffs with one of his high end attacks since Queen doesn't dodge and basic Coo locates his invisible form since Sanji(no confirmed advanced Coo) could do it.
> 
> King and Queen is a high diff based on portrayal but feat-wise,it looks like a wash as that would just be King landing beatings on Queen who never bothers to dodge.



_Basically how some would scale Kaido and Big Mom based on feats even though they are very much meant to be peers and on the same tier._



TheWiggian said:


> Because he is a lunarian. We finally crossed that bridge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_But the WG who are responsible for what happened with the Lunarians and actually had a Lunarian in their custody running tests on him are more in the dark somehow without Whitebeard's second hand tales  

Yeah Albert required a branch and no direct attention from GB who was focusing on Queen  _

Reactions: Like 2


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jul 1, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Queen nearly died in the crossfire between Zoro and King. So he is sub bozo tier while King is just bozo tier.


Wow the two piece here.

You changed: king hit queen with one of his attacks which didnt even hurt queen who was mildly annoyed.

To

Queen almost died in the crossfire.

To almost die king would have to have the attack power to do more than tickle queen, which on panel he does not.


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## bil02 (Jul 1, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> Basically how some would scale Kaido and Big Mom based on feats even though they are very much meant to be peers and on the same tier.


So fighting styles,matchups,personality and mindset are not relevant in fights?

Kaido can mid diff BM,do you know why? Because BM's  low Battle IQ kind of restrains her lol.

Remember when BM was about to be BFR on the rooftop only to be saved by Kaido's intervention?  In a direct fight,Kaido can just throw her into the sea on his own and call it a day.
He literally told Linlin she was pathetic to be taken out like a rookie.

I was expecting much more from Queen,the guy called the plague.

Guess what? He never used any plagues on Sanji and the fight was just restricted Sanji(Exo-skeleton awakening disturbing him) landing  beatings on him until he had the AP needed to end the fight.


Queen can use lasers and other Germa abilities all he wants,those are just tricks that have very low chances of taking any high tier down or even landing on them.
I'm very disappointed in what Queen showed and I have no doubt he defintely loses to Rooftop Zoro whose actually has the AP to put him down.


King is not as strong as I thought he was(Pre 1035) but matchup-wise,he doesn't need very high diff at all to defeat Queen.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 1, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _But the WG who are responsible for what happened with the Lunarians and actually had a Lunarian in their custody running tests on him are more in the dark somehow without Whitebeard's second hand tales  _



The pirate that became PK and discovered the truth, tellin it to WB is now a second hand tale according to Sanji fans   



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Yeah Albert required a branch and no direct attention from GB who was focusing on Queen  _



Yeah Albert required a power to be put down that only a handful of the very strongest in the world can use according to his captain, looks like Queen gets the short stick again


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 1, 2022)

bil02 said:


> So fighting styles,matchups,personality and mindset are not relevant in fights?
> 
> Kaido can mid diff BM,do you know why? Because BM's  low Battle IQ kind of restrains her lol.
> 
> ...



_Kaido obviously can't mid diff Big Mom.

I mean, in a forum vs thread if you ignore portrayal it might be arguable, but it obviously would never happen in the manga.

If Oda writes King vs Queen or Kaido vs Big Mom, these are fights between opponents on same tier with comparable bounties and portrayal even if you can give an advantage to King or Kaido, so these would be written as difficult fights for either to come out on top  _


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## bil02 (Jul 1, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Kaido obviously can't mid diff Big Mom.
> 
> I mean, in a forum vs thread if you ignore portrayal it might be arguable, but it obviously would never happen in the manga.
> 
> If Oda writes King vs Queen or Kaido vs Big Mom, these are fights between opponents on same tier with comparable bounties and portrayal even if you can give an advantage to King or Kaido, so these would be written as difficult fights for either to come out on top  _


I have acknowledged portrayal before but If I get you right,matchups don't matter?

Kid had no innate matchup advantage on less skilled-haki swordsmen that were in his tier?

Katakuri isn't a bad matchup for slow characters who lack AoE like Queen either ?

Lol we are in the battledome you know,we argue portrayal of course but matchups and Personality prevail even in the manga as illustrated by linlin being be about to be low diffed by rooftop 4 without KAIDO'S intervention.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 1, 2022)

bil02 said:


> I have acknowledged portrayal before but If I get you right,matchups don't matter?
> 
> Kid had no innate matchup advantage on less skilled-haki swordsmen that were in his tier?
> 
> ...



_Match-ups do make a difference but "feats" is something Oda's way less consistent with than portrayal.

You can easily reach very flawed conclusions going with feats, such as the notion that Kaido could have an easy time defeating Big Mom.

Obviously that's not the case. Not even Whitebeard would have had an easy time with either Kaido, Big Mom or Shanks.

Feats wise you can say Franky runs over Big Mom and Robin can roll her around and throw her out of the castle. She can get outmaneuvered by F6 tier characters or less, but if Oda's writting the fight between Big Mom and let's say Shanks, they will be clashing and she will be relative enough speed/agility wise to be competitive for an extended period of time, even landing her own attacks and doing significant damage.

If you go just by feats then you could scale the mid level SH's to be relative to Shanks in those aspects using Big Mom to transfer their feats against her, but that's obviously not how this works out.

Oda takes liberties with feats and isn't nearly as considerate with making them properly convey the power of a character to the same extent he does portrayal. And often he also relies on giving similar portrayal to certain characters but most of the feats to some of them, with him trusting the readers to understand that the shared portrayal means one's feats also hypes up the others who share comparable portrayal._

Reactions: Neutral 1 | Optimistic 1


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## TheWiggian (Jul 1, 2022)

bil02 said:


> I have acknowledged portrayal before but If I get you right,matchups don't matter?
> 
> Kid had no innate matchup advantage on less skilled-haki swordsmen that were in his tier?
> 
> ...



Feats only matter when Sanji performs them, for all others you need to take everything else into account before the conclusion:



			
				Sir Curlyhat said:
			
		

> _CP0 didn't even show that he can move so fast as to appear invisible Sanji's speed is on a different tier
> 
> *Yes he's drawing the feats and showing the giant sword break on Sanji's neck without hurting Sanji or even forcing him to bend his neck.* We can put the two together ,look where Oda's focus was in both scenes, and tell what feat takes priority #_






			
				Sir Curlyhat said:
			
		

> _Pre Wano Sanji wasn't going to fight a top YC because all of these important Supernovas are in Wano and "Oda did not make Sanji a Supernova for a reason"
> 
> Sanji's looked down on by some until he delivers, and *once he delivers the feat get's adjusted as much as possible to seem less impressive* because Sanji's the one that pulled it off _






			
				Sir Curlyhat said:
			
		

> _Tbf Sanji's not given the acknowledgement he deserves.
> 
> *It's not like any of the "YC1's" have the feats that Sanji has. Who's the strongest opponent they have defeated ?*
> 
> The only characters to legitimately defeat "YC2's" in the manga have been Sanji, Aokiji and Green Bull, and that's good company for Sanji to have _






			
				Sir Curlyhat said:
			
		

> _*Sanji will actually defeat a YC 2 level opponent* while Jimbe will require mr B Rabbit to scale his feats _





On top of that he has the nerve to play the victim and pretend to be neutral


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## TheTwelfthKenpachi (Jul 1, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Match-ups do make a difference but "feats" is something Oda's way less consistent with than portrayal.
> 
> You can easily reach very flawed conclusions going with feats, such as the notion that Kaido could have an easy time defeating Big Mom.
> 
> ...


First, let me aknowledge the fact you try to read between lines and try to understand more than what's directly shown, I'll always salute that, comprehensive and analytic reading is key in litterature.

I understand your point and I think you are definitely right about some things, but I want to give my two cents about a few things :

-It's impossible to clearly transfer feats onto another character. Shanks is not Big Mom. Big Mom has been shown to be quite unintelligent and not very strategic, this isn't the case for every top tier. You cannot use Law/Kidd vs Big Mom as a way to say they would beat, for example, Sakazuki, who's a much more competent and strategic fighter, who aims for the head, uses tricks and whatever he can to guarantee himself to win easily as possible.

-While Oda is clearly not a master at drawing fights and giving characters feats that always push them up as high as their portrayal would, it's important that we still at least consider feats, we can't just go like "well, Oda made these two guys stand at the top of the fridge, they must be the kings of the kitchen, even if one of them got mid diffed by Luffy and the other got extreme diffed". It would be fallacious; readers shouldn't be the victims of Oda's poor job at respecting his own characters. 

We can't just ignore performance, it would completely take away the point of showing fights.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 1, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Feats only matter when Sanji performs them, for all others you need to take everything else into account before the conclusion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_You quote me answering someone else who was discussing feats in the first place talking about how "flimsy walls can hurt him" so i'm showing how that's not consistent with what we've previously seen.

Next is the discussion around the Supernova, which have never been established to be stronger than Sanji, but just something that part of the community ran with in order to put Sanji down. Based on those expectations same group thought that Wano would be the place where all the Supernova get to deliver and overshadow Sanji, not even giving him a chance to fight a YC, which is obviously not what happened.

Then i'm asking what exactly puts a "YC1" above someone who has defeated a "YC2" when the "YC1s" can't even claim to be able to achieve more than that based on hype, portrayal or feats. Sanji's achievement is downplayed, especially when he pulled it off while already tired and damaged and in a minute after he just started to reach his current power level. Not many characters in the manga pulled off what Sanji did, and the one's who have also defeated YC2 opponent have high enough standing to give Sanji good company.

Finally i'm discussing how Jimbe's feats have been scaled in a pretty ridiculous manner without payoff in Wano for the expectations set on him based on that scaling. Heck someone who relies only on feats can now claim that Jimbe solos King and Queen because he did better against top tiers than the BP duo did with backup on their side   _


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## TheWiggian (Jul 1, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _You quote me answering someone else who was discussing feats in the first place talking about how "flimsy walls can hurt him" so i'm showing how that's not consistent with what we've previously seen.
> 
> Next is the discussion around the Supernova, which have never been established to be stronger than Sanji, but just something that part of the community ran with in order to put Sanji down. Based on those expectations same group thought that Wano would be the place where all the Supernova get to deliver and overshadow Sanji, not even giving him a chance to fight a YC, which is obviously not what happened._



_Lets's see the majority of the SN's in Wano are established above Sanji just like pre TS. Apo and Hawkins are below him, it's up in the air with Killer while the rest is handily above not just in feats._



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Then i'm asking what exactly puts a "YC1" above someone who has defeated a "YC2" when the "YC1s" can't even claim to be able to achieve more than that based on hype, portrayal or feats. Sanji's achievement is downplayed, especially when he pulled it off while already tired and damaged and in a minute after he just started to reach his current power level. Not many characters in the manga pulled off what Sanji did, and the one's who have also defeated YC2 opponent have high enough standing to give Sanji good company._



_Feats right? Not only did Katakuri manage to put up a great fight against Luffy he is also established among Marco and King to be above the likes of Queen which supports the yonko stalemate power system in this story._



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Finally i'm discussing how Jimbe's feats have been scaled in a pretty ridiculous manner without payoff in Wano for the expectations set on him based on that scaling. Heck someone who relies only on feats can now claim that Jimbe solos King and Queen because he did better against top tiers than the BP duo did with backup on their side  _



_Why are they scaled in a ridiculous manner when you're betting everything on that Sanji > Jinbei by defeating Queen? Are you jealous Jinbei has great feats which you try to discredit while at the same time doing the same for Sanji? 

Stop playing the victim dude  _


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 1, 2022)

TheTwelfthKenpachi said:


> First, let me aknowledge the fact you try to read between lines and try to understand more than what's directly shown, I'll always salute that, comprehensive and analytic reading is key in litterature.
> 
> I understand your point and I think you are definitely right about some things, but I want to give my two cents about a few things :
> 
> ...



_There are factors to consider such as consistency in portrayal, number of pov's supporting it, if strong claims are made, and so on.

Jack sharing a page with King for example when the F6 challenging the All Stars is discussed get's overwritten by him being used as a hype tool for King's and Queen's introduction and point of contrast in comparison to the two as a duo, and the overwhelming number of instances that support that initial narrative, with the lack of evidence supporting the contrary.

If the portrayal and implication is there that X character is meant to be competitive with Y character to a degree, i will take that over scaling feats that present the possibility of X character getting one shoted because of how a set of feats could allign for that possibility if we are willing to give them enough credit.

For example you can put up a set of feats and make the claim that Kaido or Akainu can one shot Big Mom so it's a "no diff" fight, but that's never how that's going to play out._

Reactions: Like 4 | Informative 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jul 1, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> _Lets's see the majority of the SN's in Wano are established above Sanji. Apo and Hawkins are below him, it's up in the air with Killer while the rest is handily above not just in feats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_What stalemate is there to talk about when you guys are willing to scale Big Mom as a mid diff for Kaido ?  

If you guys go the feats route Kaido mid diffs Big Mom and no diffs her crew. No stalemate to be had and how Commanders compare between crews is irrelevant.

Because it leads to the conclusion that Jimbe could take on King and Queen as a team if you really want to push for it, while his portrayal in Wano decisively pushed him more so alongside Franky and not as a contender for Zoro's or Sanji's positions._

Reactions: Winner 2


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## TheWiggian (Jul 1, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _What stalemate is there to talk about when you guys are willing to scale Big Mom as a mid diff for Kaido ?  _



Wasn't arguing anything Kaido - Big Mom related.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _If you guys go the feats route Kaido mid diffs Big Mom and no diffs her crew. No stalemate to be had and how Commanders compare between crews is irrelevant._



_This is only your subjective opinion.
_


Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Because it leads to the conclusion that Jimbe scould take on King and Queen as a team if you reall want to push for it, while his portrayal in Wano decisively pushed him more so alongside Franky and not as a contender for Zoro's or Sanji's positions._



I don't see why Jinbei shouldn't be able to stall them off-panel similiarly to Sanji pre awakening. Nothing really speaks against it and it's not the same as beating them.


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## TheTwelfthKenpachi (Jul 1, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _There are factors to consider such as consistency in portrayal, number of pov's supporting it, if strong claims are made, and so on.
> 
> Jack sharing a page with King for example when the F6 challenging the All Stars is discussed get's overwritten by him being used as a hype tool for King's and Queen's introduction and point of contrast in comparison to the two as a duo, and the overwhelming number of instances that support that initial narrative, with the lack of evidence supporting the contrary.
> 
> ...


Fair I guess

Reactions: Like 1


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## bil02 (Jul 1, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Match-ups do make a difference but "feats" is something Oda's way less consistent with than portrayal.
> 
> You can easily reach very flawed conclusions going with feats, such as the notion that Kaido could have an easy time defeating Big Mom.
> 
> ...


I don't refute any of that but I want you to agree that when certain conditions are met,even far weaker characters can defeat enemies (with battle flaws like lack of strategy,low IQ,Underestimation traits etc...)  way above their paygrade in the manga too.

This is how Nami won most of her fights in the manga or how Bm was getting neg diffed in a combined effort from Law,Kid,Zoro and Killer.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mercurial (Jul 1, 2022)

King and Queen are "close in strength" because they were defeated together in the same way by Green Bull, and so, who cares about their completely different portrayal as right hand man vs nothing, as well rounded warrior with a hax power vs a clown who hits himself and loses focus for a whore... 

I would say that all the Strawhats were defeated together by Oars, but it's not like that makes all the Strawhats "close in strength", but anyway...

Also I love how a certain portion of well known stans use the "defeated together in the same way by the same opponent makes people close in strength" only when they like it because it suits their agenda.

I'll just leave here two characters defeated in the same overwhelming way by the same opponent, in the same issue.
And those two received far, far, far, far, far more portrayal of them together as two guys close in strength. Even a strength ranking. Even a 1 vs 1 serious fight. 
Even in the very same arc in which this scene happened, and in the following arcs, literally the author made these two guys reach the Grade A of the "appeared together" "were portrayed the same" and so on. But when things don't suit a certain delusional agenda...



*Spoiler*: __ 































As usual, there is some "portrayed together" that counts, because it suits the agenda, and some other "portrayed together" that, even if is even much greater and much more consistent and much more massive, doesn't count because goes against that (delusional) agenda.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Seethesedogs (Jul 1, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> _Lets's see the majority of the SN's in Wano are established above Sanji just like pre TS. Apo and Hawkins are below him, it's up in the air with Killer while the rest is handily above not just in feats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have no stake in the discussion just want to point out that the stalemate has nothing to do with the YC tier list that people made up. Kaido and BM haven't seen each other in years. King and Queen never fought Marco before because they had no idea of his shockwaves. Katakuri never lost a fight before Luffy. WB likely hasnt seen Shanks since the duels with Mihawk. 

Yonko crews don't fight each other because if they do one other would move in and take territory or the Marines would get involved.  There's no preconceived level to keep between the Commanders.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 1, 2022)

Seethesedogs said:


> I have no stake in the discussion just want to point out that the stalemate has nothing to do with the YC tier list that people made up. Kaido and BM haven't seen each other in years. King and Queen never fought Marco before because they had no idea of his shockwaves. Katakuri never lost a fight before Luffy. WB likely hasnt seen Shanks since the duels with Mihawk.
> 
> Yonko crews don't fight each other because if they do one other would move in and take territory or the Marines would get involved.  There's no preconceived level to keep between the Commanders.



Generally they have to be similar in strength else it wouldn't make any sense regarding Oda's narration of a stalemate. Sure some are slightly stronger, other are weaker, obviously WBP being the strongest as they were ruling the sea and been officially stated to be the strongest.


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