# Lord of Nightmares vs Living Tribunal



## Nevermind (Nov 15, 2010)

I am curious about this matchup. There's been a lot of debates over whether L-Sama is omnipotent or only nigh. This I suppose would be one of the best benchmarks we can use to gauge that.

There's no doubt that the LT has more feats, but L-Sama has created multiverses without trying, each with its own deities.

I'll remain neutral. Just curious as to what everyone thinks.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Nov 15, 2010)

As far as I know the LT has better feats, which is the only thing that matters here. He's above IG wielders which are multiversal.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 15, 2010)

there are multiple multiversal entities in Marvel that are below the LT, AFAIK


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## Captain America (Nov 15, 2010)

Going with LT:


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## Uncle Phantom (Nov 15, 2010)

Lord of Nightmares is a beast though. I'm not sure who is the more powerful of the two.

It's like comparing Kami Tenchi with LT lol it just a head scratcher with beings that basically have no known limit whatsoever.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Nov 15, 2010)

Grandmaster hijacking Death's power made a Big Bang ploy because he was bored. The whole Elders of the Universe know better than to mess with Galactus, who along with the rest of the cosmic family were helpless against IG Thanos.

The LT's only objection with fighting against an IG wielder was not his own safety, but reality ending as collateral.


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## Uncle Phantom (Nov 15, 2010)

Charcan said:


> Grandmaster hijacking Death's power made a Big Bang ploy because he was bored. The whole Elders of the Universe *know better than to mess with Galactus*, who along with the rest of the cosmic family were helpless against IG Thanos.
> 
> The LT's only objection with fighting against an IG wielder was not his own safety, but reality ending as collateral.



Couldn't they just kill him when he's hungry though? I never understood why Galactus is up there with those type of beings given that his power fluctuates so much.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Nov 15, 2010)

IIRC Galactus has killed the whole lot of the Elders before. They only came back eventually because of their cosmic immortality, which wouldn't diminish Galactus teaching them a lesson. Even Loeb didn't go as far as jobbing Galactus against someone who was high off jobbing Grandmaster in the same series.


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## Orochibuto (Nov 15, 2010)

Even if LON beats LT in this thread he isnt omnipotent until he defeats HOTU Thanos


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 15, 2010)

anyway, LT wins this


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## Uncle Phantom (Nov 15, 2010)

Orochibuto said:


> Even if LON beats LT in this thread he isnt omnipotent until he defeats *HOTU Thanos*



Is thier anybody across fiction who can? lol


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## Nevermind (Nov 15, 2010)

Eternal Sleep said:


> Is thier anybody across fiction who can? lol



Only true omnipotents like TOAA, Man of Miracles and Kami Tenchi.

Unless the question was rhetorical.


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## Emperor Joker (Nov 15, 2010)

Nevermind said:


> Only true omnipotents like TOAA, Man of Miracles and Kami Tenchi.
> 
> Unless the question was rhetorical.



I think Pre-Retcon Beyonder has stalemated HOTU Thanos though as well


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## Kurou (Nov 15, 2010)

Hasn't this been done before?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 15, 2010)

~Strike Man~ said:


> Hasn't this been done before?



probably multiple times


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## Orochibuto (Nov 15, 2010)

Eternal Sleep said:


> Is thier anybody across fiction who can? lol



Any real omnipotent should thats why I said if you want to discuss LON omnipotence put him with HOTU Thanos, he is the benchmark of omnipotence per excellency.


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## Nevermind (Nov 15, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> I think Pre-Retcon Beyonder has stalemated HOTU Thanos though as well



Hmmm, that makes sense.


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## Orochibuto (Nov 15, 2010)

HOTU Thanos should be above PR Beyonder honestly, yes I know the shit he did but basically PR stalemating with HOTU is just from fans saying PR is par with TOAA and stuff and because LT was unable to bring death back, PR made something LT couldnt undo sure, but HOTU ate him...... literally.


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## Uncle Phantom (Nov 15, 2010)

Can someone refresh my memory on Pre-Retcon Beyonder's feats again? I didn't know he was on HOTU Thanos level.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 15, 2010)

TOAA is above Thanos with the HOTU, a writer is> the written character. PR Beyonder>PR MM>LT. Thanos with HOTU vs PR is still argued but do note all the cosmics were begging PR MM to fight Beyonder. He killed Death for fun which still left LT powerless. PR Beyonder is just as much close to some of TOAA's powers as HOTU Thanos is.

Anyway, L-sama is powerful but here we throw away the omnipotence defination and go by feats. LT has better feats and is stronger than many multiversals in Marvel.


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## Narcissus (Nov 15, 2010)

Orochibuto said:


> Even if LON beats LT in this thread he



The Lord of Nightmares is usually considered female.


~Strike Man~ said:


> Hasn't this been done before?



Pretty much any "omnipotent vs. omnipotent" thread has been done before, with several of them causing shitstorms in the past.

LT wins. He has the better feats.


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## Kurou (Nov 15, 2010)

I see, with that I'll say L-sama has huge knockers. She wins with mid difficulty.


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## Derfine (Nov 16, 2010)

there aren't a real All-Power in fiction so far expect Demonbane and Squrriel Girl with Popeye,Bug Bunny

LT has longer history and he can do anything as long 3 head argee(the better also worse feat) so stalemate for fair-play since LON don't has enough feat


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## AzureD (Nov 16, 2010)

Not enough info to go by with anything. Barely anything is known about LoN. All we really know is that she is the creator god of several universes. Easily has the power to destroy a universe in one fell swoop. At least going by how somebody just channeling her power can bring about the end of everything.


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## Lina Inverse (Nov 16, 2010)

Featwise, LT would win this

however I have yet to see LT knock the moustache out of a gentleman tentacle monster


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## AzureD (Nov 16, 2010)

What is LT best feat?


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## Havoc (Nov 16, 2010)

LT barely has any feats, besides being known as superior to every other cosmic being in Marvel.

He held a megaverse in each hand, depowered the IG, passed judgment over muzzled Protege, and was going to replace the 616 universe.

That's all that I can recall.


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## Pika305 (Nov 16, 2010)

Holding two Megaverses in his hand should be up there, existing simultaneously in every Mutliverse as its judge, absorbing Protege into himself who is someone who copied all his powers and then some...


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## Million (Nov 16, 2010)

> LT barely has any feats, besides being known as superior to every other cosmic being in Marvel.
> 
> He held a megaverse in each hand, depowered the IG, passed judgment over muzzled Protege, and was going to replace the 616 universe.
> 
> That's all that I can recall.


he restricted the use of the infinity gems, wich together made the user "god"
Was the one who resisted the most thanos with HOTU


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## Pika305 (Nov 16, 2010)

Did he? I recall HOTI Thanos taking LT, Infinity and Eternity out instantly...


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## Uncle Phantom (Nov 16, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> TOAA is above Thanos with the HOTU, a writer is> the written character. PR Beyonder>PR MM>LT. Thanos with HOTU vs PR is still argued but do note all the cosmics were begging* PR MM *to fight Beyonder. He killed Death for fun which still left LT powerless. PR Beyonder is just as much close to some of TOAA's powers as HOTU Thanos is.
> 
> Anyway, L-sama is powerful but here we throw away the omnipotence defination and go by feats. LT has better feats and is stronger than many multiversals in Marvel.



Who's that?


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## Nevermind (Nov 16, 2010)

Eternal Sleep said:


> Who's that?



Pre-Retcon Molecule Man. The cosmic beings of Marvel were begging him to fight Beyonder. This would place him above the LT.


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## Aokiji (Nov 16, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Anyway, *L-sama is powerful but here we throw away the omnipotence defination and go by feats.* LT has better feats and is stronger than many multiversals in Marvel.



Who said that?


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## Pika305 (Nov 16, 2010)

I thought he meant since LT has also been referred as Omnipotent we just go by who has the better feat between the two.


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## Havoc (Nov 16, 2010)

Million said:


> he restricted the use of the infinity gems, wich together made the user "god"
> Was the one who resisted the most thanos with HOTU


Yea, I said he depowered the IG.

He lasted maybe 1 second longer than everyone else.


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## Orochibuto (Nov 16, 2010)

Aokiji said:


> Who said that?



Because he/she hasnt shown enough feats to be considered an omnipotent like TOAA and Kami Tenchi have. Just that she is insanely powerful, beign refered as an omnipotent doesnt make you so unless you prove it for example what if RS was named omnipotent? He isnt so until showing he is.


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## God (Nov 16, 2010)

LT can crush megaverses.


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## Lina Inverse (Nov 16, 2010)

LoN can crush you with her tits

To me that's a better feat


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## Devil Kings (Nov 17, 2010)

Eternal Sleep said:


> Couldn't they just kill him when he's hungry though? I never understood why Galactus is up there with those type of beings given that his power fluctuates so much.



Galactus is essential to the multiverse. Galactus is a being that's neither evil nor good, but is essential.


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## Orochibuto (Nov 17, 2010)

Devil Kings said:


> Galactus is essential to the multiverse. Galactus is a being that's neither evil nor good, but is essential.



Though they could still cure his hunger. Apparently a powerful reality warp could do it considering that Galactus thought PR Beyonder could fix it.


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## Masa (Nov 17, 2010)

Pika305 said:


> I thought he meant since LT has also been referred as Omnipotent we just go by who has the better feat between the two.



You can't have a feat proving omnipotence, you can only have feats that prove against omnipotence.  considering, LT has been shown to not be omnipotent by virtue of an even stronger being existing, he is not omnipotent.  LoN has the potential to be omnipotent as she is all powerful in the Slayers-'verse.  

Of course just assuming LoN to be omnipotent would be a no-limits fallacy, but an omnipotent being in itself is by definition a no-limits fallacy, so that point is moot.  

The only options we have are to either A)believe author statements (unless the author contradicts him/herself), which would make LoN omnipotent, or B)don't believe author statments, which would make feats the only acceptable evidence to base who is stronger.  Btw, option B would make it impossible to prove omnipotence.

I am prone to take option A because I think authors should be able to introduce an omnipotent being without having to one-up every other writer on the planet.  

Don't agree with me?

Here's a story I made up:
There is a guy who holds infinity omniverses in his left hand.  One day he killed the creators of Marvel.  The end.

Whoops, I just made TOAA not omnipotent because my character has greater feats.  Too bad for you guys claiming he was omnipotent.


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## Havoc (Nov 17, 2010)

Your story is non canon.


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## Pika305 (Nov 17, 2010)

Masa said:


> You can't have a feat proving omnipotence, you can only have feats that prove against omnipotence.  considering, LT has been shown to not be omnipotent by virtue of an even stronger being existing, he is not omnipotent.  LoN has the potential to be omnipotent as she is all powerful in the Slayers-'verse.
> 
> Of course just assuming LoN to be omnipotent would be a no-limits fallacy, but an omnipotent being in itself is by definition a no-limits fallacy, so that point is moot.
> 
> ...



The thing is there have been countless debate about why LoN isn't omnipotent, the few i can somewhat recall is her not being able to channel all her power through Lina or something along the likes and not being able to kill someone with them...

Marvel themselves has this whole level of omnipotent thing they made.

Omniverse is suppose to be the sum of all possible universes, this shouldn't even be an in verse only thing like with Marvel's Multiverses...


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## Nevermind (Nov 17, 2010)

Pika305 said:


> The thing is there have been countless debate about why LoN isn't omnipotent, the few i can somewhat recall is her not being able to channel all her power through Lina or something along the likes and not being able to kill someone with them...
> 
> Marvel themselves has this whole level of omnipotent thing they made.
> 
> Omniverse is suppose to be the sum of all possible universes, this shouldn't even be an in verse only thing like with Marvel's Multiverses...



Well, I think that particular point is questionable, as that probably reflects Lina's limitations more than it does L-Sama's. LoN did create multiverses and these multiverses have their own deities (the Shabranigdo, which in turn created powerful beings like Hellmaster Phibrizzo).

But going strictly on feats, the LT has more of them, he could probably do the same anyway.

This is a tough one for me to decide.


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## Masa (Nov 18, 2010)

Pika305 said:


> The thing is there have been countless debate about why LoN isn't omnipotent, the few i can somewhat recall is her not being able to channel all her power through Lina or something along the likes and not being able to kill someone with them...



Having an omnipotent fail to do something due to (presumably) self imposed restrictions isn't really them failing as an omnipotent, its them failing to beat themselves.  Its only natural to expect these kinds of paradoxes when you are trying to describe an entity that by definition defies logic.  As long as the author doesn't introduce an even more powerful being or show an upper limit to his omnipotent-titled character, I think it is fair to give that character the benefit of the doubt.




> Marvel themselves has this whole level of omnipotent thing they made.



That always bugged me, it just waters down the concept of omnipotence.  Same goes for their unimegamultiomniverse.



> Omniverse is suppose to be the sum of all possible universes, this shouldn't even be an in verse only thing like with Marvel's Multiverses...



Yes, but you can always imagine 2 'verses no matter how many prefixes they stack on top of it to impress readers.  If TOAA is omnipotent, can he create 2 omniverses?


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## God (Nov 18, 2010)

How do you know that limitation was self-imposed?


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## Lina Inverse (Nov 18, 2010)

Because Lina's tits weren't big enough to contain her power


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## Masa (Nov 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> How do you know that limitation was self-imposed?



Because she created the universe and everything in it including its rules.


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## God (Nov 19, 2010)

Right so she should have been able to accomplish it. That's not proof it was self-imposed, it's proof of a limit.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 19, 2010)

Lina Inverse said:


> Because Lina's tits weren't big enough to contain her power



poor Lina


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## Masa (Nov 19, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Right so she should have been able to accomplish it. That's not proof it was self-imposed, it's proof of a limit.



So pthe fact that she made the rule that "Lina can only handle this much energy before popping" isn't proof that she imposed that rule herself?  I'm not following you here...She made the rule->self imposed rule.  If she was to defy it, she would be breaking her rule of "Lina can only handle this much energy before popping".  Either way she failed to do something, but I don't think its fair to require the writer to write solutions to logical paradoxes to portray an intended omnipotent in their fiction.  If that were the case, there are NO omnipotents in fiction.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Nov 19, 2010)

So tell me why she couldn't just alter Lina's body so it could handle it. Go on, I'll wait.


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## Kurou (Nov 19, 2010)

Cause Lina doesn't deserve multiversal titties.


**


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## Xelloss (Nov 19, 2010)

Because first it was not her desire to be on that body to start off, nor she intent to kill Phibrizzo on any way he attack her, and she attack back.

*Cause Lina doesn't deserve multiversal titties.*

Quoted for the true.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Nov 19, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Because first it was not her desire to be on that body to start off


Then she shouldn't have been there to begin with. To suggest she was dragged there against her will is by far worse.



> nor she intent to kill Phibrizzo on any way he attack her, and she attack back


Please rephrase that into something more legible.


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## Kurou (Nov 19, 2010)

I think he means, L-sama didn't have any intention of killing him and she only attacked because he tried to off her first.

Honestly, the titty excuse was better.


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## Xelloss (Nov 19, 2010)

Boobies.

LoN wanted to see what was going on, it wasnt against her will, she just didnt have any intention to interfer with the fight until Phibi lose his mind and try to attack her to free her from the vessel and set her power free.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Nov 20, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> LoN wanted to see what was going on, it wasnt against her will



So why did she have to do that? She should just know what was happening. Any attempt to explain away a limit ends up implying a new one.



> she just didnt have any intention to interfer with the fight until Phibi lose his mind and try to attack her to free her from the vessel and set her power free



Implying a limit...


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## Xelloss (Nov 20, 2010)

... Because her nature is chaos she likes to play around you can be as omni as you want, doesnt stop you for have a creepy sense of humor... or a chaotic nature.

As Xellos explain she is chaos and a true wish of creation can call her attention, just think of her as a little girl with the attention spawn of a nanosecond.

You are looking at limits and not the nature of the character or what it represents, and the second part "thats what Phibrizzo was thinking".


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 20, 2010)

Omnipotent thread argument number 1000. It fails as much as religion threads, just go with LON being a multiversal abstract of chaos. That would still be way below LT who makes abstracts look like shit anyway. Anyway we either don't use Omnipotents or if we do to avoid many pages of arguments over a character's omnipotence or omnipotence being paradoxical arguments we just go with feats. 

Marvel does'nt have different levels of omnipotence. Omniversal in Marvel is still huge when you have infinite megaverses each made up of infinite multiverses each made up of infinite universes. Omniversal can be done by below TOAA I believe, he's just the strongest cosmic there.


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## Xelloss (Nov 20, 2010)

I never said she was omnipotent just saying the argument was flawed, by feats many omnipotents lose to LT anyways.


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