# Minato vs Jiraiya and Hebi Sasuke



## ki0 (Jan 9, 2015)

*Location: *Forest of Death
*Distance:* 30 meters
*Mindset:* IC with killing intent. Jiraiya and Sasuke fight as a team.
*Knowledge:* Full knowledge for everyone
*Restrictions:*Minato can only summon Gamabunta, Jiraiya starts off with sage mode and the 2 elder frogs. Jiraiya can summon any toad other Gama's son and Gama.


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## sabre320 (Jan 10, 2015)

jmans my fav character but sadly sm jirayia is not reacting to minato....his base speed would massively pressure jirayia but ftg will blitz him jirayia does not have threat perception on the level of perfect sages and surprise attack from asura left him helpless he will not react to ftg v2 not to mention he himself can use sm in bursts for a blitz hebi sasuke is a non factor here really jirayia will have to babysit him


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## Rocky (Jan 10, 2015)

Jiraiya can challenge Minato heavily by his lonesome, especially with full knowledge on Yondaime's abilities. Due to the lack of a definitive counter to Hiraishin, alongside Minato's superior tactical prowess, I would take the 4th Hokage if it was just the two of them fighting. However, a second Kage class fighter in Sasuke being here leads me to believe that Minato won't pull through.

Though he _could_ technically force a draw with the Death Seal using Kage Bunshin.


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## Dominus (Jan 10, 2015)

Adding Hebi Sasuke to support Jiraiya is too much for Minato to handle. They have full knowlede on Minato's most used technique and they can use Sasuke's shuriken skills and Chidori Senbon to limit Hiraishin when he tries to use his marked kunai. Yomi Numa could come in handy as well. 

While Minato's space-time ninjutsu prowess will make it very hard for them to kill him he will use way more chakra than them since he's outnumbered. When he summons Gamabunta his opponents will summon Gamaken and Manda. Gamabunta will be defeated and then Minato will have to fight those two along with Sasuke, Jiraiya and the toad sages. They could also distract him long enough for the toads to use their genjutsu.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 10, 2015)

Does  get  or not? That's really the biggest factor as Base  can't do anything here with Ma and Pa along w/  sensing as well as another intelligent elite ninja backing him up and forming a strategy based on Minato's Hiraishin.


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## sabre320 (Jan 11, 2015)

whats hebi sasuke supposed to do here to pressure minato and support jirayia? what are their best reaction feats?

sm jirayias could not react to a blindside attack from asura with ma and pa with him how da hell is he supposed to reat to ftg v2? not to mention minato has much better shunshin and hebi sasuke is really a non factor here none of his attacks are landing on minato and he cant react to minato..if it was someone whose style complemented jirayia i could understand the argument but hebi sasuke isnt doing anything here the match is not going to the outlasting stage....


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## Empathy (Jan 11, 2015)

Version two _Hirashin_ is just a mistranslation for _Hirashin's_ second step, which involves throwing a kunai and then warping to it; so as for how _Sennin_ Jiraiya would react to it — he would dodge a thrown kunai.


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## Dominus (Jan 11, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> whats hebi sasuke supposed to do here to pressure minato and support jirayia? what are their best reaction feats?
> 
> sm jirayias could not react to a blindside attack from asura with ma and pa with him how da hell is he supposed to reat to ftg v2? not to mention minato has much better shunshin and hebi sasuke is really a non factor here none of his attacks are landing on minato and he cant react to minato..if it was someone whose style complemented jirayia i could understand the argument but hebi sasuke isnt doing anything here the match is not going to the outlasting stage....



Did you not read or understand my post?


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## Ghost (Jan 11, 2015)

Yomi Numa should be a solid counter to Minato's Hiraishin since now he can only teleport to the kunai when they are in the air (which will be easy to counter) or tag Jiraiya and Sasuke.

Jiraiya and Sasuke can put some heavy pressure on Minato wit htheir large scale Ninjutsu boosted by SM and CS. They can also prep Kirin here.

Giving it to duo high diff.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 11, 2015)

Not really understanding the logic of majority of the posts here, Minato stalemated Ei and Killer Bee in his initial clash, tagging one and making physical contact with the other, Killer Bee and Ei are a superior team to SM Jiraiya and Hebi Sasuke~ by a _considerable_ margin. 

I don't see a counter to Minato's kunai blitz from 30m, he outpaced the timing of Kamui with a kunai throw, warping with a Rasengan already manifested and while in SM, neither of them stand a chance in hell in reacting to that. That is faster than either of these ninja's perceptive capabilities. He reacted to V2 Ei two times without detailed prior knowledge of his power scale initially, and he warped in front of, and out with Truth Seekers shot from Madara that failed to physically damage his body an ounce before he took them away with FTG. Truth Seekers came less than a meter from outpacing the speed of Double Kamui, and they were shot from 30m+ away by Judara. 

The Two Kage Level Ninja versus One Kage = One Kage loses is a ridiculous and comical argument. Neither of them are remotely close to Minato's speed caliber, he would blitz them in under 10 seconds with his ridiculous kunai throwing and warping velocity. I see absolutely no way they bring him down with his FTG blitzing speed, reactive capacity and barrier techniques. All that being said, he ties with DRS should he fail to rape them accordingly.


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## sabre320 (Jan 12, 2015)

Honestly if minato rushes sasuke im not seeing how he survives.....base tomtoe reacting to minato is fanfic at its best one taijutsu exhange with minato or clones and sasuke is tagged...
hebi sasuke is literally out of place here he is absolutely no threat to minato even kirin can be hirashind out....

minato was fighting ei and bee a stronger tag team and much more suited to each others styles..

minato can litter the battlefield around itachi with kunai faster then v2 ei can capitalize..
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minato can make clones and ftg swap with them to exploit openings...sasuke gets taken out no sussano here no defennsive jutsu either....

sm jirayia is below minato i love jman but lets not pretend minato isnt in a higher tier..

sm jirayia couldnt react to a surprise attack from asura...and hes going to react to ftg assaults by minato? not to mention minato has much faster shunshin to close the distance..

Now lets get to speed feats...

Minato was able to troll v2 ei to such an extent that before raikage had moved an inch minato teleported to the tree turned around teleported to the kunai that was mid air got into striking position and would have struck ei before he had any idea wth happened 

Minato likes to spam markings and almost always likes to place marking in a location faraway to teleport attacks and to recouperate
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He placed a marking hundreds of miles into the sea considering the size of juubidams blast
through his shunshin placed markings for the hokage barrier and teleported the juubidama while no one even registered his presence all the while a speedster like tobirama didnt even make it to the battle quite a bit later even though they did none of the aforementioned tasks....this was in base

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he can shunshin fatser then someone like obito can strike....

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he can outrun explosions mid way..

he can shunshin from across konoha to save kushina before kurama can strike same kurama who struck sm naruto before he could react...
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he blitzed the same kurama again from across konoha with shunshin and used food cart destroyer it before it could react..
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Now onto minatos reaction and kunai throwing speed...
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minato threw a kunai faster then kakashi could activate kamui..then he managed to get into sage mode form a rasengan and teleport next to madara before kamui warp had even begun....
this is the same kakashi who could warp gedo mazo mid summon and earned praise from sm madara....

Now lets go to perhaps his most impressive speed feat...here we have madara who can use guodama in close range so fast that obito cannot kamui to escape..
obito and kakashi had to combine their kamui speed and still barely managed to evade the guodama...
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kakashi alone could kamui bm naruto so fast that obito with his mankegyo could not percieve it...

yet we have minato here teleporting in at literally point blank catching the kunai in his mouth letting the same guodama touch him and ftg out before even 8th gate gai could move an inch..

plain and simple jirayia is not reacting to minato he is tiers above in speed and worse of all jirayia cannot keep at distance because minato has faster shunshin as well..


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## Dominus (Jan 12, 2015)

You guys are using A and Obito as examples when they didn't have full knowledge on Minato's abilities like Jiraiya and Sasuke here. I already explained and so did Empathy that you don't have to be able to react to Hiraishin itself to avoid getting blitzed, since they have full knowledge they have to simply avoid getting near a kunai or stop the kunai when Minato wants to throw it at them. With Sharingan precognition along with Chidori Senbon and his own weapons and Jiraiya's Yomi Numa I don't see why they couldn't do it. 

Once they have done that, they have to worry about Minato's Shunshin, but I don't think it's going to trouble them that much, Hebi Sasuke is pretty fast as well and Jiraiya blitzed Human Path, even if Minato manages to blitz Sasuke with Jiraiya, toad sages, Gameken/Gamahiro and Manda around Sasuke still has Orochimaru's body replacement jutsu to repair the damage Minato inflicts. 

I agree with both of you that they are going to have trouble catching him because of Minato's speed, but he's going to become tired faster than them and they have a genjutsu Minato won't be able to break. While Minato could win, I think Jiraiya and Sasuke have better chances because they have full knowledge and because Minato is outnumbered, especially with summons around.


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## sabre320 (Jan 12, 2015)

Dominus said:


> You guys are using A and Obito as examples when they didn't have full knowledge on Minato's abilities like Jiraiya and Sasuke here. I already explained and so did Empathy that you don't have to be able to react to Hiraishin itself to avoid getting blitzed, since they have full knowledge they have to simply avoid getting near a kunai or stop the kunai when Minato wants to throw it at them. With Sharingan precognition along with Chidori Senbon and his own weapons and Jiraiya's Yomi Numa I don't see why they couldn't do it.
> 
> Once they have done that, they have to worry about Minato's Shunshin, but I don't think it's going to trouble them that much, Hebi Sasuke is pretty fast as well and Jiraiya blitzed Human Path, even if Minato manages to blitz Sasuke with Jiraiya, toad sages, Gameken/Gamahiro and Manda around Sasuke still has Orochimaru's body replacement jutsu to repair the damage Minato inflicts.
> 
> I agree with both of you that they are going to have trouble catching him because of Minato's speed, but he's going to become tired faster than them and they have a genjutsu Minato won't be able to break. While Minato could win, I think Jiraiya and Sasuke have better chances because they have full knowledge and because Minato is outnumbered, especially with summons around.



Um actually u are ignoring the fact that minato threw 30 kunai in one panel before v2 ei could close in....
he threw a kunai faster then kakashis kamui activated got into sage mode formed a rasengan and teleported next to madara before the warp had begun ur seriously underestimating minatos speed and utility with ftg v2 and kunai...

and u are seriously underestimating minatos shunshin and placing hebi sasuke in a speed tier he does not belong..his shunshin saved naruo before obito could strike...hebi sasuke is not close to obito...

sage mode naruto could not react to kuramas strike...minato shunshined acroos konoha and saved kushina from the same strike....

he blitzed the same kurama from across konoha with foodcart destroyer..

he shunshined out 100 miles to the sea placed a marker shunshined back spread kunai across the juubi before anyone registered his presence....and tobirama a person with far greater speed feats and hype then hebi sasuke made it much later to the battlefield while not doing any of the above..said his shunshin paled in comparison to minatos ...

one taijutsu exchange and hebi sasuke is tagged thats a death sentence....one kunai strike had bee fearing for eis life a strike to the neck and sasukes dead a rasengan ends him or leaves him incapacitated....please for the love of god dont compare human path to minato....minato can shunshin into cqc he has reactions tiers above he does not need to fear a cqc exchange those amazing reactions are not limited to ftg he can still utilize them in close quarters its his best option here against jirayia or sasuke ur saying it as if he is limited to kunai spamming..and his base speed is so limited that he cant close the distance between the duo.. he has much faster base speed and shunshin one taijutsu exchange and jirayia will get tagged especially with ftg clones spamming kunai and {seal markings} while swapping around..


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## Dominus (Jan 12, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Um actually u are ignoring the fact that minato threw 30 kunai in one panel before v2 ei could close in....



For some reason A let him throw those kunai, you can see a panel of Minato grabbing the kunai, then throwing them, then him and A just looking at each other. It could be due to A not knowing that he could teleport to marked kunai or simply underestimating Minato. 



> he threw a kunai faster then kakashis kamui activated got into sage mode formed a rasengan and teleported next to madara before the warp has begun ur seriously underestimating minatos speed and utility with ftg v2 and kunai...



Gaara used Sabakuha before Kakashi and Minato used Kamui and Hiraishin, by that logic Gaara's reactions and speed are above Kakashi's and Minato's... Sasuke will know when Minato's going to throw marked kunai and can use Chidori Senbon just like how he used it against against Deidara's C1 bombs.

You edited now. Basically you're using Minato's Shunshin feats that happened off panel and we don't even know for sure whether he used Hiraishin or Shunshin in those examples, I wasn't comparing Human Path to Minato nor do I think Jiraiya can blitz Minato, my point was that Jiraiya wasn't slow and won't die just because Minato has a fast Shunshin.


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## sabre320 (Jan 12, 2015)

Dominus said:


> For some reason A let him throw those kunai, you can see a panel of Minato grabbing the kunai, then throwing them, then him and A just looking at each other. It could be due to A not knowing that he could teleport to marked kunai or simply underestimating Minato.
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actually the special emphasis was given on minato accomplishing several actions in the same panel....adhering to his hype..denying his feat is simply ..

the intent against ei was clear minato can spread kunai against ei u saying its because ei let him is funny..

how is minato shunshin off panel wth are u talkin abt he had no markers present either on kurama or kushina...everytime minato uses ftg the marker is shown with emphasis...how da heck is he supposed to use ftg there without markers ur using baseless assumptions to downplay his feats here...and what about the one aginst obito u saying happened offpanel minato shunshined and saved naruto before obito could strike earning his praise n the yellowflash moniker...and how do u propose minato put the marker out into the sea u saying he threw it out there just through sheer will? tobirama complimented his shunshin for the lolz?

Did you ignore my whole argument he needs to use shunshin to get into cqc with the duo no shunshin wont kill jirayia but it gets  him into range with jirayia for cqc where minato with his much better reaction can tag the duo all he needs is a touch..


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## ShadowReaper (Jan 12, 2015)

Is Sasuke with MS? 

If not a massive speed difference will just be a deciding factor in favour of Minato winning.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 12, 2015)

Minato got more hype and should be stronger than either individually but...

Jiraiya got SM perception and it won't be easy to mark him and without marking him I think he can react to Minato's normal speed.

Sasuke with his sharingan might also be able to react to Minato's base speed(at least in CS2) and since he knows about Minato's FTG it won't be so easy to mark him as he will be on guard against it.

When it comes to summons Jiraiya got Ma, Pa and Gamahiro while Sasuke gets Manda. So Minato is outmatched in a summon match and will have to divide his attention among many enemies. Of course he can use bunshins but so can Jiraiya. 

I'd say 6/10 for Jiraiya and Sasuke team.


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## Dominus (Jan 12, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> actually the special emphasis was given on minato accomplishing several actions in the same panel....adhering to his hype..denying his feat is simply ..
> 
> the intent against ei was clear minato can spread kunai against ei u saying its because ei let him is funny..



A is faster than Minato w/o Hiraishin, you're crazy if you think A couldn't react to Minato throwing kunai, you can even see a panel of him and Minato just looking at each other after Minato threw them. Like I said A probably underestimated him or simply didn't have enough intel on his abilities.



> how is minato shunshin off panel wth are u talkin abt he had no markers present either on kurama or kushina...everytime minato uses ftg the marker is shown with emphasis...how da heck is he supposed to use ftg there without markers ur using baseless assumptions to downplay his feats here...



We don't know where he has marks. The author doesn't always have to show everything just like how he doesn't always show people using hand seals, but that doesn't mean they are not using them.



> and what about the one aginst obito u saying happened offpanel minato shunshined and saved naruto before obito could strike earning his praise n the yellowflash moniker...and how do u propose minato put the marker out into the sea u saying he threw it out there just through sheer will? tobirama complimented his shunshin for the lolz?



He does have a fast Shunshin, I'm not denying that just not a Shunshin on the level of v2 A  where he can blitz Sasuke anytime he wants. He could blitz Sasuke if Jiraiya, toad sages and other summons weren't there, but unfortunately for Minato, they won't just watch.



> Did you ignore my whole argument he needs to use shunshin to get into cqc with the duo no shunshin wont kill jirayia but it gets  him into range with jirayia for cqc where minato with his much better reaction can tag the duo all he needs is a touch..



If he marks Sasuke, he can use Orochimaru's body replacement/Oral Rebirth to get rid of the mark. Jiraiya has toads on his back, together with them he can use elemental attacks stop Minato from getting near them and Jiraiya covering himself with hair needles could be helpful as well.


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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2015)

minato wins, hebi sasuke serves no purpose in this match up 
With knowledge minato scatters kunai and dances around them 
sasuke would attempt a genjutus trap only to be trolled by a kage bunshin 

jiriaya would not pull off somethign as so very slow as frog song, frog call is a good bet but even at that its too slow to catch minato who would be running circles round them 

jiraiya would have to watch out for friendly fire frog call or frog song could end hebi sasuke or make him vulnerable enough for minato to just take his head off 

sasuke lasts about 2 mins then dies

@Dominos actually what minato being able to spread kunai before Ei could attack shows that minato can throw them kunai before Ei can amp his shroud 

i should ask if this was Ei vs hebi sasuke with jiriaya as support do you think hebi sasuke would be able to do much of anything???

now consider someone who is faster and alot less predictable with the ability to use clones 

tracking kunai would barely help jiraiya or sasuke. minato can simply just switch up and use a clone or 2. Sm jiraiya fastest attack is his hair needles this was blocked by summoning from animal realm with stand still reactions when compared to minato. Sasuke fastest move would be his genjutsu or chidori, chidori is a death sentence if he gets close he gets tagged and no he isnt using oral rebirth before he looses his head 

knowledge of hirashin really delays death it doesnt prevent it. Even if jiraiya and sasuke decide to constantly relocate from a mark infested battlefield minato only need send a clone towards them and have that clone spread more kunai rinse and repeat. 

if either gets tagged and the other is unaware the match is over, he hirashin and kills them both instantly


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## sabre320 (Jan 12, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Minato got more hype and should be stronger than either individually but...
> 
> Jiraiya got SM perception and it won't be easy to mark him and without marking him I think he can react to Minato's normal speed.
> 
> ...



whats this base speed bullshit...minatos reactions are far superior to these two he can tag them in cqc while evading a counter..even if sasuke reacted to minato he would have to block a strike and get tagged in turn ..

jirayias not a perfect sage.....sm naruto has much superior perception and yet he isnt close to minato in reactions...

what the hell is going on with the hilarious minato downplay nowadays...hebi sasuke can react to minato in cqc now...


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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2015)

well sabre he can tbh
but i dont see how that would help him, he only needs to get tapped or minato only need let go of the kunai he is holding for sasuke to die at the speed of light 

but yes outside hirashin, minato cannot just run up to sasuke and baby shake him 

sadly, hirahsin usage makes outspeedign your opponent too  simple 

sasuke and jiraiya cannot keep up at close range and minato can ensure they stay at close range by chasing them


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## sabre320 (Jan 12, 2015)

Dominus said:


> A is faster than Minato w/o Hiraishin, you're crazy if you think A couldn't react to Minato throwing kunai, you can even see a panel of him and Minato just looking at each other after Minato threw them. Like I said A probably underestimated him or simply didn't have enough intel on his abilities.
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a has faster shunshin then minato but minato has better reactions..Minato was able to troll v2 ei to such an extent that before raikage had moved an inch minato teleported to the tree turned around teleported to the kunai that was mid air got into striking position and would have struck ei before he had any idea wth happened 

so basically ur making assumptions with no proof to deny his feats....how da hell is he supposed to ftg to kurama without a mark ....hilarious assumptions..

Once sasukes marked do you think minatos gonna give him a chance to use oral rebirth? let me jog your memory this happened to obito when marked...

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and u think sasuke is gonna use oral rebirth before obito could use intangibilty,...

jirayia puts up hair defense minato breaks it with rasengan...elemental jutsu dont have a remote chance of catching minato.. and neither ma and pa have the reactions to use their jutsu before minato can act..

let me just ask you this who wins jirayia or minato?

 because sasuke gets taken out very quick..


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## Dominus (Jan 12, 2015)

@Icegaze

If Minato does the same thing he did in canon against A and B. Jiraiya sinks the kunai and there is nothing Minato can do about it. If he tries to throw kunai at them they use their own or Chidori Senbon to block and thus he can't blitz them in the same way he did against Obito. The only way he can spread kunai in this situation is by placing them on the ground or trees, Jiraiya and Sasuke can simply stay away from those places. He could also mark clones, but that will make Minato lose even more chakra and he will have to get the clones near Sasuke and Jiraiya, but again since they have full knowledge they can use their summons and elemental ninjutsu to keep the clones at bay. 

Minato is intelligent so there is also the possibility of him somehow getting a mark near them and taking them out, but like I said I simply think his opponents have better chances. Placing marks and getting marks near them won't be unnoticed when Sasuke has the Sharingan (I think the Sharingan's basic abilities are ignored a lot in the NBD) and Jiraiya has the toad sages on his shoulders.


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## sabre320 (Jan 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> well sabre he can tbh
> but i dont see how that would help him, he only needs to get tapped or minato only need let go of the kunai he is holding for sasuke to die at the speed of light
> 
> but yes outside hirashin, minato cannot just run up to sasuke and baby shake him
> ...



who do you think wins in a cqc encounter tobirama or sasuke?

Minatos reactions are still far above hebi..if he gets into cqc with minato minato reacts much quicker then sasuke and lands his blows ....sm naruto landed a rasengan on third raikage because of his reactions...think along the same line here mate..


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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2015)

minato can simply throw more kunai. why assume minato has only that number of kunai he threw. 
would jiraiya sink the kunai indefinitely ?

minato doesnt need to mark clones they can mark themselves 

the sharingan has been trolled by hirashin twice on panel already. obito knew of hirashin what he did not expect was minato hirahsin to the kunai behind him. 

they could try get away as much as they want but i do not see how you expect them to know where 30+ kunai would be and track the clone movements and the clone throwing even more kunai at them 

they would be fighting on the defensive, while minato with only 1 clone would barely spend any chakra. all he would be doing is throwing kunai while jiraiya and sasuke would be using jutusu to avoid or repel them while trying to attack minato 

yomi numa is a waste of jiraiya chakra, minato can throw more kunai which cost him nothing. 

jiraiya and sasuke elemental jutus are too slow to land on minato they would eventually try to come close to finish the job with their faster attacks


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## Dominus (Jan 12, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> a has faster shunshin then minato but minato has better reactions..Minato was able to troll v2 ei to such an extent that before raikage had moved an inch minato teleported to the tree turned around teleported to the kunai that was mid air got into striking position and would have struck ei before he had any idea wth happened



A's reactions are on the same level as Minato's it has been stated in the manga, you're making stuff up. Why are you talking about Minato's speed when using Hiraishin when we were discussing about Minato throwing kunai.



> so basically ur making assumptions with no proof to deny his feats....how da hell is he supposed to ftg to kurama without a mark ....hilarious assumptions..



It's not a feat if we don't know what happened, you're assuming he used Shunshin, but you have no proof.



> Once sasukes marked do you think minatos gonna give him a chance to use oral rebirth? let me jog your memory this happened to obito when marked...
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Oral Rebirth can repair lost limbs and getting hit by Amaterasu, I don't see why getting stabbed won't be able to be repaired. And all of this is assuming he gets to hit him while 5 other people are just looking.



> jirayia puts up hair defense minato breaks it with rasengan...elemental jutsu dont have a remote chance of catching minato.. and neither ma and pa have the reactions to use their jutsu before minato can act..



Elemental attacks don't have to hit Minato, they can use them for keeping Minato away from them. 



> let me just ask you this who wins jirayia or minato?
> 
> because sasuke gets taken out very quick..



Minato, but that's your problem with thinking Sasuke won't do anything when I've already explained 3 times how he will be helpful.


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## Dominus (Jan 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> minato can simply throw more kunai. why assume minato has only that number of kunai he threw.



Because of the size of the bag.



> minato doesnt need to mark clones they can mark themselves



Doesn't matter.



> the sharingan has been trolled by hirashin twice on panel already. obito knew of hirashin what he did not expect was minato hirahsin to the kunai behind him.



I'm not saying the Sharingan will help him avoid Hiraishin, but with stopping the kunai and noticing when and where Minato creates marks.



> they could try get away as much as they want but i do not see how you expect them to know where 30+ kunai would be and track the clone movements and the clone throwing even more kunai at them



Why can't they track it, there are 4 smart people and one of them is a Sharingan user and one of them can sink all of them.

Using clones isn't really in character for Minato, he didn't use them against A and B nor against Obito.



> they would be fighting on the defensive, while minato with only 1 clone would barely spend any chakra. all he would be doing is throwing kunai while jiraiya and sasuke would be using jutusu to avoid or repel them while trying to attack minato



By fighting on the defensive they will wear Minato out.



> yomi numa is a waste of jiraiya chakra, minato can throw more kunai which cost him nothing.



Where did this Minato has a gazillion of kunai come from?



> jiraiya and sasuke elemental jutus are too slow to land on minato they would eventually try to come close to finish the job with their faster attacks



Already explained to sabre, they don't have to hit Minato, just for blocking or slowing Minato down.


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## Bonly (Jan 12, 2015)

I'd favor Minato to win. S/T barrier pretty much says fuck you to the majority of the duo's long range attacks, with Hiraishin and his speed+reactions Minato should be capable of avoiding/defending the mid-long range jutsu from the duo and going into CQC is gonna be hell for the duo as one touch can get them tagged as well as the fact that Minato might land a contract seal meaning no more summoning for them. Unless Ma+Pa managed to get frog song to land I don't really see the duo coming out on top.


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## Dominus (Jan 12, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Minato might land a contract seal meaning no more summoning for them.



Jiraiya's summons are fighting for him of their own free will, though we don't know if Sasuke can control Manda again once Minato removes his control over it.


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## Bonly (Jan 12, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Jiraiya's summons are fighting for him of their own free will,



That's neat and all but no contract means Jiraiya can't bring any more toads to the battle field. If Minato touches Ma+Pa he can send them away via Hiraishin so the whole "fighting of their own free will" would mean jack shit.



> though we don't know if Sasuke can control Manda again once Minato removes his control over it.



If Sasuke used genjutsu on Manda during the battle and then Minato landed the contract seal afterwords, I'm pretty sure Manda would be pissed and try to kill Sasuke.


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## sabre320 (Jan 12, 2015)

Dominus said:


> A's reactions are on the same level as Minato's it has been stated in the manga, you're making stuff up. Why are you talking about Minato's speed when using Hiraishin when we were discussing about Minato throwing kunai.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



minato has better reactions then ei the manga should have nailed this in by now....

ei rushed minato minato left the kunai in his hand behind mid air...teleported to the kunai on the tree turned back teleported to the kunai still midair got into striking position and would have landed the blow had it not been for bee before ei even moved and had any idea what happened....after that for you to claim he has equal reactions is laughable..

The burden of proof is on you mate...in every case where ftg has been used markers have been shown every single time and when minato uses shunshin you claim that he used ftg even when no markers are shown then you claim that because no markers were shown we cannot let the feat count because you are not sure

obito could not activate intangibility before minato stabbed him even juubidara could not tag obito before he activated intangibility...getting tagged caused juubito to be hit from sm narutos rasengan remember.. in sasukes case he uses a rasengan to the head or spine...sasukes either dead or incapacitated..


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## Dominus (Jan 12, 2015)

Bonly said:


> That's neat and all but no contract means Jiraiya can't bring any more toads to the battle field. If Minato touches Ma+Pa he can send them away via Hiraishin so the whole "fighting of their own free will" would mean jack shit.



I'm not denying that, my point was just that it wouldn't be as useful against his sensei as it was against his student.



> If Sasuke used genjutsu on Manda during the battle and then Minato landed the contract seal afterwords, I'm pretty sure Manda would be pissed and try to kill Sasuke.



Being pissed doesn't stop you from getting controlled. Though it doesn't have to mean Sasuke will certainly put Manda under genjutsu my point is still that the Contract Seal won't be as useful as it was against Obito because Manda will be close to Sasuke (Kurama wasn't near Obito) and there is the possibility of Sasuke putting him under genjutsu again.


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## ki0 (Jan 12, 2015)

When has Minato ever blitz someone of Hebi Sasuke or SM Jiraiya caliber, with footspeed alone?


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## Dominus (Jan 12, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> minato has better reactions then ei the manga should have nailed this in by now....
> 
> ei rushed minato minato left the kunai in his hand behind mid air...teleported to the kunai on the tree turned back teleported to the kunai still midair got into striking position and would have landed the blow had it not been for bee before ei even moved and had any idea what happened....after that for you to claim he has equal reactions is laughable..



It has been stated in the manga that their reactions are the same, I won't discuss this.



> The burden of proof is on you mate...in every case where ftg has been used markers have been shown every single time and when minato uses shunshin you claim that he used ftg even when no markers are shown then you claim that because no markers were shown we cannot let the feat count because you are not sure



How is the burden of proof on me when you're claiming he used Shunshin without showing panels. I'm too lazy to check but I'm pretty sure there were no marks shown when Minato used Hiraishin to get away from Obito, Tobirama to get away from the God Tree, Hiraishingiri on Izuna, etc.



> obito could not activate intangibility before minato stabbed him even juubidara could not tag obito before he activated intangibility...getting tagged caused juubito to be hit from sm narutos rasengan remember.. in sasukes case he uses a rasengan to the head or spine...sasukes either dead or incapacitated..



It depends on what Minato uses against Sasuke. Again Oral Rebirth won't be useful just against Minato's ninjutsu/kunai but for getting rid of Hiraishin marks as well.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 12, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> whats this base speed bullshit...minatos reactions are far superior to these two he can tag them in cqc while evading a counter..even if sasuke reacted to minato he would have to block a strike and get tagged in turn ..
> 
> jirayias not a perfect sage.....sm naruto has much superior perception and yet he isnt close to minato in reactions...
> 
> what the hell is going on with the hilarious minato downplay nowadays...hebi sasuke can react to minato in cqc now...



To be honest apart from saving his son from Obito trying to stab him with a kunai(which Obito expected and put an exploding tag so he wouldn't have to engage Minato before dealing with Kushina first) Minato did not show any noteworthy speed feats that did not involve Hirashin.

And Minato does not start every fight with his opponents being already marked. He got to do it himself. And Sasuke even still weakened after his fight with Itachi and without CS boost could react to V1 Bee's speed. And Base Bee could react to V2 Raikage's speed. In fact Sasuke without a body enhancing boost could still activate his own power in time(Amaterasu) to deal with V2 Raikage's speed instead of being smacked before he could understand what is going on.

Since both Jiraiya and Sasuke know about Hirashin in this match it won't be easy to touch them. Jiraiya himself got some blizin' in SM and Sasuke even in base during his Hebi days got his speed hyped quite a bit being able to dodge Amaterasu for a while without even using CS2.

Also were was it stated that Jiraiya's SM perception is worse than Naruto's? All that was outright stated implied that Jiraiya simply by lacking control was unable to keep his human looks and started to look a like a toad. With Ma and Pa he could actually stay longer in SM than Naruto given that they could gather SM chakra for him even when moving and could smack summons as Naruto.


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## Bonly (Jan 12, 2015)

Dominus said:


> I'm not denying that, my point was just that it wouldn't be as useful against sensei as it was against his student.



Then your point doesn't mean much to me as it's useful either way you slice it.



> Being pissed doesn't stop you from getting controlled. Though it doesn't have to mean Sasuke will certainly put Manda under genjutsu my point is still that the Contract Seal won't be as useful as it was against Obito because Manda will be close to Sasuke (Kurama wasn't near Obito) and there is the possibility of Sasuke putting him under genjutsu again.



Dr. Snakes "Snakes can sense things through temperature, and they can also do it with sense of smell by passing the smell in their mouths."

Gamakichi "Sorry but the summoning time is almost over!"

Manda as you can tell, is a snake. He doesn't need to use his eyes to find Sasuke so if he was caught under a genjutsu and was freed later on, the chances of him being caught in another genjutsu is pretty low since he can simply close his eyes. As you also know Manda would have been brought to the battle field via summoning which means he has a time limit to how long he can stay. Add those two factors together along with the fact that Sasuke would also have to worry about Minato as well as Manda, I'm not seeing how it's not going to be useful as the case with Obito just because there is a lack of distance.


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## Dominus (Jan 12, 2015)

Sorry but the summoning time is almost over!

Too bad Manda is stupid and is looking at Sasuke again.


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## Bonly (Jan 12, 2015)

Now your just grasping at straws lol. Manda was hit by C0, dude was left on his side and couldn't move, what would be the point in avoiding eye contact when he's gonna die. Come on brah you're better then this


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## Dominus (Jan 12, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Now your just grasping at straws lol. Manda was hit by C0, dude was left on his side and couldn't move, what would be the point in avoiding eye contact when he's gonna die. Come on brah you're better then this



Sorry but the summoning time is almost over!

Dumb animals, it's as if they don't remember what happened the last time.


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## ki0 (Jan 12, 2015)

I doubt Minato would blitz them with foot speed. Like I said before



ki0 said:


> When has Minato ever blitz someone of Hebi Sasuke or SM Jiraiya caliber, with footspeed alone?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 12, 2015)

Once minato storms them and the battlefield with kunai then he can blitz/tag them without much trouble(especially hebi sasuke). They can't rush him to stop him or they get the A treatment and yomi numa wouldn't really stop his advancement since a slew of kunai would be in the air around them ready to be teleported to. From there minato never let up with the attacks throwing kunai to strategic positions when needed.

Hebi sasuke would not stop/touch minato utilizing hiraishin ever. The raikage had MS sasuke head spinning and minato operates faster than him. SM jiraiya can't even touch minato since he don't got the speed it takes to even get near minato(full speed A) and space time barrier for all projectiles. Frog song takes too long it's pretty unrealistic if minato is using every option he got.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Because of the size of the bag.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



one simple thing which you forget. KCM naruto shunshin when he smashed kisame as well as BM naruto shunshin when he slapped away the BD was directly compared and referenced to minato. 

Do you think hebi sasuke can even slightly evade KCm naruto? if you think he cant then minato murders him with an initial blitz. Kishi wasnt specific but minato movement from point A to B still exceeded KCm naruto shunshin. 

Also note it is entirely possible and in fact implied that minato can throw his weapon from point A to B quicker than he himself can move from A to B with his shunshin which makes sense. Anyone can throw an object quicker than they themselves can move. 

As implied by kishi in a battle situation minato is faster than Ei in every single way. jiraiya wont be able to protect sasuke. 

minato does to sasuke what he attempted to do to juudara and the battle for sasuke ends there

the size of minato pouch doesnt matter, clearly kishi had no issues with having minato throw 30 kunai out of that little bag to start with. plot or not he can spam them. 

Silly excuse usign clones is in character for minato, why learn a jutsu and not implement it? considering he has a technique which actually uses his clone? what is not in character for minato is using wind jutsu. but clones are perfectly in character for him. he used it against obito, againt Ei and B there was no need to and the fight lasted 2 panels. 

sasuke cannot keep up he wont be fighting he will be dying. He cannot react to the likes of KCM naruto why are we assuming he can remotely keep up with minato. Minato will be infront of him instantly from there he dies. 

minato kunai throwing speed has been praised and shown to be very very fast. I wont compare it to things like kamui but i dont see how he can get from point A to B in front of juudara and anyone still thinks sasuke would be able to even breathe before he dies


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## Dominus (Jan 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> one simple thing which you forget. KCM naruto shunshin when he smashed kisame as well as BM naruto shunshin when he slapped away the BD was directly compared and referenced to minato.
> 
> Do you think hebi sasuke can even slightly evade KCm naruto? if you think he cant then minato murders him with an initial blitz. Kishi wasnt specific but minato movement from point A to B still exceeded KCm naruto shunshin.



Yes, KCM Naruto's *Shunshin* is comparable to Minato's *Hiraishin*, but I have already told you that they have the abilities and full knowledge to deal with Minato's kunai and most of his marks.



> minato does to sasuke what he attempted to do to juudara and the battle for sasuke ends there



No, it won't, Sasuke will predict that Minato will throw a kunai and he will throw a kunai as well or use Chidori Senbon.



> the size of minato pouch doesnt matter, clearly kishi had no issues with having minato throw 30 kunai out of that little bag to start with. plot or not he can spam them.



You are simply assuming he has more kunai, you aren't providing any proof. The burden of proof is on you.



> Silly excuse usign clones is in character for minato, why learn a jutsu and not implement it? considering he has a technique which actually uses his clone? what is not in character for minato is using wind jutsu. but clones are perfectly in character for him. he used it against obito, againt Ei and B there was no need to and the fight lasted 2 panels.



Yes, there was need to, B stalemated him and Obito almost defeated him. Just because the fight didn't last long it doesn't mean they weren't close in power.



> sasuke cannot keep up he wont be fighting he will be dying. He cannot react to the likes of KCM naruto why are we assuming he can remotely keep up with minato. Minato will be infront of him instantly from there he dies.
> 
> minato kunai throwing speed has been praised and shown to be very very fast. I wont compare it to things like kamui but i dont see how he can get from point A to B in front of juudara and anyone still thinks sasuke would be able to even breathe before he dies



I already explained this above.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 13, 2015)

So after Sasuke gets his head cut off, Jiraiya gives Minato a pretty good fight.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Yes, KCM Naruto's *Shunshin* is comparable to Minato's *Hiraishin*, but I have already told you that they have the abilities and full knowledge to deal with Minato's kunai and most of his marks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you failed to get my point. Naruto moving from point A to B is as fast as minato moving from point A to B. if sasuke cannot track KCm naruto movement he isnt going to be tracking the kunai coming his way. I dont see how thats hard to understand 

forget the kunai spam. He throws 1 and sasuke dies. because fact kishi didnt say KCM naruto speed= minato hirashin. he said naruto shunshin isnt as fast as minato moving from point A to B. clearly his movement from point A to B involves throwing the kunai. Now if his kunai throwing speed was lackluster enough for sasuke to deflect then obviously minato would be slower than KCM naruto when moving from point A to B now wouldnt he?

Yes bee did stalemate him. However bee>>>>>>>>>hebi sasuke its not even funny. giving sasuke bee feats doesnt make sense. considering a more advance version of sasuke couldnt even track Ei. 

fact that kishi has illustrated is. 
Minato throwing a kunai and appearing at that kunai with hirashin is as fast or faster than  KCM naruto shunshin which is superior to Ei amping to max and using shunshin. 


How exactly is sasuke deflecting kunai thrown at that speed?? 

if he can appear infront of juudara, throw kunai before Ei attacks, spread kunai and leave one at sea and getting to the battlefield before the likes of tobirama am sorry to say sasuke isnt even remotely keeping up 

simple question if this were Ei how long would sasuke last? because Ei is slower than minato anyway you look at it

100 M race Ei vs minato 

Ei amps and minato throws a kunai. minato would get to the finish line before Ei. That should clearly indicate that minato can throw kunai stupendously fast. 

instantly appearing at a tag would be useless if he couldnt get the tag close to the enemy with ease. 

he got in juubito face, juudara face, Ei back. 

and best of all he was able to throw his kunai before kamui wrap pulled him in. thats much faster than sasuke movement. considering they are even slower than itachi's


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## Dominus (Jan 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> you failed to get my point. Naruto moving from point A to B is as fast as minato moving from point A to B. if sasuke cannot track KCm naruto movement he isnt going to be tracking the kunai coming his way. I dont see how thats hard to understand
> 
> forget the kunai spam. He throws 1 and sasuke dies. because fact kishi didnt say KCM naruto speed= minato hirashin. he said naruto shunshin isnt as fast as minato moving from point A to B. clearly his movement from point A to B involves throwing the kunai. Now if his kunai throwing speed was lackluster enough for sasuke to deflect then obviously minato would be slower than KCM naruto when moving from point A to B now wouldnt he?



We don't know whether Yamato included throwing kunai or not.



> Yes bee did stalemate him. However bee>>>>>>>>>hebi sasuke its not even funny. giving sasuke bee feats doesnt make sense. considering a more advance version of sasuke couldnt even track Ei.



What are you talking about? We were talking about Minato's usage of clones.



> fact that kishi has illustrated is.
> Minato throwing a kunai and appearing at that kunai with hirashin is as fast or faster than  KCM naruto shunshin which is superior to Ei amping to max and using shunshin.
> 
> How exactly is sasuke deflecting kunai thrown at that speed??



Sharingan precognition.



> if he can appear infront of juudara, throw kunai before Ei attacks, spread kunai and leave one at sea and getting to the battlefield before the likes of tobirama am sorry to say sasuke isnt even remotely keeping up



Appearing before Madara, how is that impressive, Konohamaru can appear before him as well. We don't know why A didn't attack him, now you will say because he was powering up, no, first Minato threw the kunai then looked at A and then the Raikage powered up, it doesn't make sense. That last thing happened off panel.



> simple question if this were Ei how long would sasuke last? because Ei is slower than minato anyway you look at it
> 
> 100 M race Ei vs minato
> 
> Ei amps and minato throws a kunai. minato would get to the finish line before Ei. That should clearly indicate that minato can throw kunai stupendously fast.



Except that it's different here, Sasuke can stop the kunai and he can't stop A from powering up.



> instantly appearing at a tag would be useless if he couldnt get the tag close to the enemy with ease.
> 
> he got in juubito face, juudara face, Ei back.
> 
> and best of all he was able to throw his kunai before kamui wrap pulled him in. thats much faster than sasuke movement. considering they are even slower than itachi's



You're not getting me at all, stopping the kunai/staying away from kunai no need to worry about Minato's teleporting speed and you're for some reason constantly talking about his teleporting speed.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

Dominus said:


> We don't know whether Yamato included throwing kunai or not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Piss poor cop out. Why would yamato not include the kunai? its also stupid to assume that physical movement can be comparable in speed to instantly appearing somewhere. obviously the throw of kunai would have to be included. thats common sense 

Sorry i misunderstood you then. Minato can use clones. And uses them when necessary. what he doesnt and cant do is spam them


sharigan precog is overrated pointlessly, it did not help sasuke against Ei higher end speed, it did not help sasuke against bee. no point of precog if the person is physically too slow to do anything about it. sasuke himself explained that 

 konohamaru cannot appear in front of madara without madara casually seeing him run towards him. dont be dense. look at the distance and notice how easily that distance was covered 

 minato threw the kunai if his kunai throwing skills were so slow why didnt Ei just close in and smash his face in before he could put his hand in his bag??? minato also had the speed to flick the kunai before Ei V2 speed could get to  him. sasuke in MS could barely turn his head 

Actually thats false, if he cannot stop Ei from powering up he isnt stopping a kunai throw. or like i said minato would be slower than Ei which he isnt 

very very simply please explain how minato always beat Ei?

if Ei could stop him from throwing a kunai wouldnt that make it an auto win for Ei? yet Ei could not stop minato from throwing kunai. why on earth would sasuke be able to. When Ei has better reaction and better physical speed?

and yes Ei has weapons. No reason to assume he never attempted to deflect kunai or always waited for minato to spread them 

yet Ei always lost in their speed battle why do you think that is?

are you saying Ei let minato spread kunai everytime??

one thing you forgot is his rasen flash technique. which involves throwing 6 kunai round and opponent. if his skills at doign that were so slow wouldnt the enemy just jump away from that or deflect it? if he can get kunai round juubito and probably round the likes of Ei how is sasuke preventing that

please note bee and Ei had full knowledge during their years against minato. Are we to imply everytime they let him spread kunai? because in a panel with bee we see minato with a rasengan in his hand with loads of kunai on the floor. we to assume bee let him spread them about the place?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 13, 2015)

Minato's base shunshin surpasses Tobirama's.  Sasuke's going to die whether or not they take care of thrown kunai.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

lol agreed with pirate on wheels 

what people dont get is if minato kunai throwing speed was slow Ei would beat him regardless of hirashin. yet Ei always lost

obviously after their first battle Ei entire strategy would be dont let him throw a kunai. yet minato obviously always pulled it off. 

tobirama can throw kunai faster than god tree branches which bee called fast. 

tobirama speed was shown to be slower than minato, yet tobirama can physically touch juubito in 6 different places. 

i seriously cant see how sasuke can even see the kunai being thrown. when he couldnt even see itachi from a seal. 

fact is 100m Ei vs minato. minato would win 11/10. that obviously involves throwing the kunai. 

lee was able to throw a kunai fast enough to let minato intercept TSB. the same balls that stopped a kamui wrap 

people dont get that weapons can be thrown horrendously fast. more so by someone whose fighting style relies on it


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## Dominus (Jan 13, 2015)

@Icegaze you don't know how to quote, this is too tiresome and I don't care about this much to continue...



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Minato's base shunshin surpasses Tobirama's.  Sasuke's going to die whether or not they take care of thrown kunai.



Because Tobirama's Shunshin is the greatest in the world, right?


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

i take it you concede thats fine 

simple none quote post. 

explain why Ei never beat minato if minato cant throw kunai faster than Ei can intercept which puts his throwing speed faster than anything sasuke can register


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## Dominus (Jan 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i take it you concede thats fine



Keep telling yourself that. We simply have different opinions on Minato's kunai throwing speed, I think Sasuke can stop them, you think it's too fast. 



> explain why Ei never beat minato if minato cant throw kunai faster than Ei can intercept which puts his throwing speed faster than anything sasuke can register



Even Kishi couldn't explain it and that's why he never showed it?


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

I know it's too fast otherwise Ei would be faster than minato which he isn't as he has admitted 
It's too obvious to argue. and he has already shown ridiculous throwing speed . While sasuke has shown even with summoning weapons which increases the speed of getting a shiruken available he is still slower than itachi getting them out of his pouch. Considering. Itachi could pull off a hand seal mid battle 

In terms of weapon throwing speed Kishi has gone through lengthy panel explaining the difference in their throwing speed and skill as well 

But hey blindly argue 

I guess Ei for the lolz always waited for minato to spread his kunai then attack just for the challenge


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## Dominus (Jan 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I know it's too fast otherwise Ei would be faster than minato which he isn't as he has admitted
> It's too obvious to argue. and he has already shown ridiculous throwing speed . While sasuke has shown even with summoning weapons which increases the speed of getting a shiruken available he is still slower than itachi getting them out of his pouch. Considering. Itachi could pull off a hand seal mid battle
> 
> In terms of weapon throwing speed Kishi has gone through lengthy panel explaining the difference in their throwing speed and skill as well
> ...



Yes, just like how villains wait for the main characters to formulate a plan... It's plot.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 13, 2015)

Hebi Sasuke is faster than Sasuke who dodged A. He is faster than weakened Sasuke who was praised twice by Killer B. Hebi Sasuke can protect himself from getting touched via Chidori Nagashi. Hebi Sasuke can erase Hiraishin Markings via Oral Rebirth. Then there is Hebi Sasuke's advanced by CS2 durability which is mainly challenged by normal Rasengan and basic Kunai slashes. Then there is Manda who proved his superiority over Gamabunta. Then there is Sharingan which made aforementioned Manda into a mindless servant. Something easily replicated on Bunta. 

And the kicker is this guy:



Often forgotten for some silly reason. Who isn't likely to agree with Minato when he tries to kill his beloved Sasuke-kun.

That's just Sasuke. There is also Jiraiya. Who starts in Sage Mode. Another tough guy with enhanced speed, reflexes and senses. With battlefield-changing techniques ideal for destroying Hiraishin Kunais and Markings. With undodgeable sound-based techs. With superior chakra reserves. With a set of intelligent large summons, with every of them not expected to be killed by basic Rasengans for quite a while.

But all that doesn't matter. Minato can obviously take on basically 3 solid Kage-lvl shinobi in a single fight. It doesn't matter that Orochimaru by himself is a horrible match up for Minato. Doesn't matter that SM Jiraiya can push Minato up to high diff by himself. It doesn't matter that Hebi Sasuke fighting by his lonesome while clearly inferior can still force Minato to be serious in yet another not very good match up. 

<Disgusted noise>


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 13, 2015)

Dominus said:


> @Icegaze you don't know how to quote, this is too tiresome and I don't care about this much to continue...
> 
> 
> 
> Because Tobirama's Shunshin is the greatest in the world, right?



It was in his time, which is by and large a mythical exaggerated legend compared to current times.  It's probably top 3.  That's the guy who used speed to kill a person equal to the Madara who can fight multiple kages.  

The convincing points are AP's.  At least feat wise.  That said, I mostly haven't read this thread.

I'd still argue by a portrayal perspective, Minato beats them, since despite Oro being a hard counter by feats, he told Hiruzen he never would have dared to attacl Konoha with the 4th alive, and Jiraiya said his student was the best.  Tsunade also said no one can be compared to Minato.  Hebi Sasuke in comparison to that isn't so hot.  I'm assuming Oro knew of his own WSM and trumps when he admitted that.  But that's an entirely different kind of argument.


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## Dominus (Jan 13, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It was in his time, which is by and large a mythical exaggerated legend compared to current times.  It's probably top 3.  That's the guy who used speed to kill a person equal to the Madara who can fight multiple kages.



Tobirama was the fastest of his time because of Hiraishin not Shunshin. He also used Hiraishin not Shunshin to kill Izuna. Izuna and Madara being equals is a mistranslation, even if they were we don't know anything about MS Madara.



> He told Hiruzen he never would have dared to attacl Konoha with the 4th alive



If I remember correctly it was Anko who said she wished the Fourth was alive, I don't recall this what you're saying.



> and Jiraiya said his student was the best. Tsunade also said no one can be compared to Minato.



I remember Jiraiya saying he was once in a decade genius or something and that it's not easy being compared to him. I didn't check, but if I'm not wrong you're kinda exaggerating.



> Hebi Sasuke in comparison to that isn't so hot.  I'm assuming Oro knew of his own WSM and trumps when he admitted that.  But that's an entirely different kind of argument.



While Minato has more hype Sasuke has a decent amount of hype as well, after seeing Sasuke defeat 1000 shinobi in base without a scratch before absorbing Orochimaru, Oro said that the fact that people called him a genius is pitiful.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

I don't get how sasuke blocking minato kunai is actually a topic 
Minato in 1 panel with 1 hand and a single throw . Unleashed  30+ kunai 
Sasuke while summoning shiruken on both hands with multiple throws threw just as many shiruken maybe less 

How on earth can both be compared? What sasuke did with summoning and 2 hands minato did with his pouch and 1 hand swing .  Sasuke isn't blocking 30+ kunai coming his way nor does he have the physical
Speed to shunshin out of there 

Even if he did . Then what ?? Is he just going to stand on the side lines 

Minato doesn't need to chase either of them and jiraiya cannot yomi numa 30+ kunai when some are on trees and are scattered round to places jiraiya may not even know about 

Everything indicates minato can throw kunai and ridiculously fast rates
Well above anything jiraiya and sasuke have shown in terms of movement and kunai throwing speed 

I hope we can all agree that Sasuke is able to throw a shiruken quicker than he can move from point A to B

I say this because people hand speed is always faster than their movement speed from A to B

As indicated when animal realm could form seals to block jiraiya hair needles. Jiraiya said if he had tried to dodge he would have died . This means he can move his hands quicker than he can move from point A to B to get out of the way 

What I am saying is sasuke has displayed no ability to deflect 30 plus kunai with his shiruken and obviously he would be able to do that quicker than he can move from point A to B to get out of the way 

People throwin speed being superior to their movement speed has been indicated numerous times in the manga . By lee , tobirama , minato , sasuke


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## Dominus (Jan 13, 2015)

Minato has never thrown 30 kunai at someone. He threw 30 kunai around the battlefield when he fought A and B, but not at them. Jiraiya sinks that with Yomi Numa while the one or a couple of kunai he throws at them (like against Madara and Obito) gets blocked with shuriken/kunai or Chidori Senbon. If some kunai get on trees full power Yomi Numa from Sage Mode Jiraiya that isn't drugged can probably sink those too.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Minato has never thrown 30 kunai at someone. He threw 30 kunai around the battlefield when he fought A and B, but not at them. Jiraiya sinks that with Yomi Numa while the one or a couple of kunai he throws at them (like against Madara and Obito) gets blocked with shuriken/kunai or Chidori Senbon. If some kunai get on trees full power Yomi Numa from Sage Mode Jiraiya that isn't drugged can probably sink those too.



Yet Ei and B were in range of the kunai . Look at the panels again. 
Naruto admitted that at Sasuke's level Naruto couldn't beat him
Why can't Minato throw the 30 kunai at sasuke . It is certianly easier to aim one target than to scatter the kunai round wouldn't you say ? So jiraiya can deflect kunai then use yomi numa before Minato can hirahin to the kunai closest to them and throw another one at them ?? Or hirshashin to the closest then use shunshin ? 

That's reaching . you would have jiriaya use enough chakra to sink the square area that the kunai are littered around and do that so quick that Minato wouldn't be able to simply use hirashin once and get to the closest kunai ??? Considering hirashin is instant and everything else isn't I find that hard to believe


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## Dominus (Jan 13, 2015)

If you had multiple things in your hand would it be easier to scatter them randomly or to throw them at the same place, I'm pretty sure the former is easier. If some kunai are thrown close or directly at them they can be deflected, the others are sunk the moment they touch the ground .


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

Dominus said:


> If you had multiple things in your hand would it be easier to scatter them randomly or to throw them at the same place, I'm pretty sure the former is easier. If some kunai are thrown close or directly at them they can be deflected, the others are sunk the moment they touch the ground .



Why can't Minato bank on the fact that both jiriaya and sasuke would attempt deflecting and simply appear at the kunai location before they are deflected ?? From there he would be quite close to them to pull off a shunhin or be within range of hirashin and be on their face 

From point blank range neither have the speed or reaction to not die against Minato 

I agree scattering the kunai would be easier 

The point still remains that Minato has the ability to simply appear within range of any of the marks before they are deflected this puts him At an ideal distance to attack either of them 

Wouldn't you say ? 

Even if they start appart at say 25 m . Minato kunai would be thrown and should at least cover a certain distance before the shirkuen to deflect them get to them considering sasuke slower throwing speed . Sasuke has no way to anticipate which mark Minato would appear to or how close Minato would get to him considering the kunai are still moving towards him rigt before his shirkuen gets to them . 

Neither can prevent Minato getting in their face


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## Dominus (Jan 13, 2015)

Appearing at the place of a kunai which is going to be hit by kunai/Chidori Senbon could be dangerous.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

Lol now your being silly 
He can appear anywhere within 5 m of any Thrown kunai 
That much is obvious 
Why would he appear right next to the kunai 
Your not even arguing properly


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## Dominus (Jan 13, 2015)

Well then it depends on how many kunai he throws at Sasuke and how many Sasuke will throw to deflect them, we don't even know if Minato would ever use a tactic like this.


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## ki0 (Jan 13, 2015)

When Minato throws his kunai, Jiraiya could throw his smoke bomb, even if JIraiya didn't do that Sasuke is safe due to Chidori Nagashi.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Well then it depends on how many kunai he throws at Sasuke and how many Sasuke will throw to deflect them, we don't even know if Minato would ever use a tactic like this.



why wouldnt he
he is fighting 2 people who have full knowledge on his hirashin 
why not do something they dont expect 
actually it doesnt matter how many he throws. if each have a 5 m radius they would overlap sure 
however it would still be very easy for him to be away from any senbon 
why his kunai are in the air coming at sasuke at a height taller than minato. Minato simply need appear at ground level or crouched down like against madara. Sasuke would not even see minato till its too late then he dies 

knowledge on hirashin barely saves them. they would still need to be able to deflect every kunai before any kunai get to close to them. something unlikely considering minato base greater physical speed and reaction added to his much better weapon throwing skills 


jumping out of range simply buys them a second because they would have to anticipate every kunai in their vicinity and be out of range of every single one of them. seeing the random manner minato throws them this isnt even remotely easy 

last i must mention sinking 30+ kunai has to be about the most unreasonable argument ever 
so jiraiya would use a battle field wide attack which would only delay minato for a second
sinking the ones on the ground would be quick but the ones on the trees would take a second longer. 

no reason minato  cant appear at the closest tree and throw more kunai 

and no the burden of proof is on you. he can throw more kunai, no statements were made that he ran out of kunai after throwing 30 against Ei. 

in the panel before he also grabbed 3 out of the 5 in his bag.


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## sabre320 (Jan 14, 2015)

Well we have feats of minatos kunai throwing speed its extremely fast....minato threw a kunai before kamui could activate went sage mode and teleported next to madara before kamui warp had begun even juubidara was initially shocked..what exactly are the duos feats? sage jirayias fastest attack was intercepted by a summon....

suddenly hebi sasuke has top tier reactions when we have sick itachi out reacting him while holding back... when ems sasukes sussano arrows couldnt touch sm kabuto do you think hebi sasukes thrown shuriken are faster?

base sharingan is fodder against someone of minatos speed class...

Not to mention minato can simply utilize the tactics tobirama used against sm madara keep two kunai in his hand shunshin into close range then use  ftg in close range 5m teleport range remember on stationary kunai ftg v2....yup but hebi sasuke can surely react..


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

Minato as stated by kishi is faster than Ei moving from point A to B. As i keep saying that involves throwing a kunai. 
its like saying Ei speed doesnt involve him Amping up when its something he obviously needs to do to achieve said speed to start with 

Any human can throw an object from point A to B quicker than they themselves can move from point A to B 

why should ninja be different? especially when you add the fact that minato has exceptional weapon throwing skills. 

I would ask people moving from point A to B with just shunshin who is faster hebi or minato?


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## sabre320 (Jan 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Minato as stated by kishi is faster than Ei moving from point A to B. As i keep saying that involves throwing a kunai.
> its like saying Ei speed doesnt involve him Amping up when its something he obviously needs to do to achieve said speed to start with
> 
> Any human can throw an object from point A to B quicker than they themselves can move from point A to B
> ...



worst of all is the funny limitation people place on minato of his complete reliance of minato using kunai to get his ftg in range...dude carries kunai in his hand in every fight he rushed in with his base speed against obito with kunai in hand why cant he use this same tactic here like tobirama did against sm madara along with clones blasphemy


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

lol because somehow they believe hebi sasuke is physically faster or jutsu like toad oil deep fryer is going to hit minato 

its easy minato can run in at them with base speed superior to their own, throw 2 kunai or not even if they deflect it 

chances are kunai are in range. once they in range hebi sasuke dies laughably jiriaya stands a better chance of surviving an initial counter but then jiraiya has nothing at all which can hit minato 

minato will get in range, with barely any chakra spent while jiraiya would be using his entire arsenal to keep minato at bay. its just a matter of when minato kills him not if


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## Alex Payne (Jan 14, 2015)

Minato ain't blitzing anybody here without Hiraishin. Weaker Sauce was  dodging V2 B(who praised his speed and even mentioned his brother in the  same breath) and A. Senjutsu-enhanced Jiraiya should be either  comparable or better.

Sasuke with Sharingan and fuinjutsu-aided shuriken spam is going to shut  those Kunai down. Minato's best bet is sneak tags placement via touch.  Or tagged clones. 

It is basic kunai throws, people. It was never  stated or even implied that Minato throwing speed is special. His  reactions are special. Quick thinking. _Hiraishin_. Kunais are  scattered around before engaging the enemy. People ignore them because  they lack knowledge. Kunais not pointed at you, lying around. Who is  going to bother? 

And his failed attempt to hit Jin Madara? It was a _timed team attack_. Kakashi, Gaara and Minato all timed the usage of their abilities. You can't cross-compare speed from that instance. It is dumb.  

Sasuke was able to stalemate Itachi with actual crazy hand-speed hype. They are too fast for 3-tomoe. And 3-tomoe tracks people Raikage. 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It was in his time, which is by and large a mythical exaggerated legend compared to current times.  It's probably top 3.  That's the guy who used speed to kill a person equal to the Madara who can fight multiple kages.
> 
> The convincing points are AP's.  At least feat wise.  That said, I mostly haven't read this thread.
> 
> I'd still argue by a portrayal perspective, Minato beats them, since despite Oro being a hard counter by feats, he told Hiruzen he never would have dared to attacl Konoha with the 4th alive, and Jiraiya said his student was the best.  Tsunade also said no one can be compared to Minato.  Hebi Sasuke in comparison to that isn't so hot.  I'm assuming Oro knew of his own WSM and trumps when he admitted that.  But that's an entirely different kind of argument.


Tobirama's title is about Hiraishin. Him killing Izuna is Hiraishin. Izuna was never equal to Madara either. Tobirama's Shunshin is obviously good but I have my doubts about it being faster than V2 B or A without biju-shunshins.


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

@Icegze

You don't have to write walls of text when we are discussing such an insignificant thing. You do realize that throwing kunai will happen in under a second and you're giving Minato powers he doesn't have. Not only does he not know if they are going to throw kunai at him or use other jutsu (elemental, hair needles, etc.) you think he knows how everything is going to happen. Sasuke is the only one with the Sharingan here and even he won't be able to predict stuff like this.


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## sabre320 (Jan 14, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Minato ain't blitzing anybody here without Hiraishin. Weaker Sauce was  dodging V2 B(who praised his speed and even mentioned his brother in the  same breath) and A. Senjutsu-enhanced Jiraiya should be either  comparable or better.
> 
> Sasuke with Sharingan and fuinjutsu-aided shuriken spam is going to shut  those Kunai down. Minato's best bet is sneak tags placement via touch.  Or tagged clones.
> 
> ...



Weaker Sauce was dodging V2 B(who praised his speed and even mentioned his brother in the same breath) and A. Senjutsu-enhanced Jiraiya should be either comparable or better.

wth u takin abt v2b lol that wasnt even v1 bee with all 8 tails lol and are u ignoring that mankegyo enhances precog.....madara praised his mankegyos straight tomtoe...3tom toe tracks raikage lmfao


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## sabre320 (Jan 14, 2015)

Dominus said:


> @Icegze
> 
> You don't have to write walls of text when we are discussing such an insignificant thing. You do realize that throwing kunai will happen in under a second and you're giving Minato powers he doesn't have. Not only does he not know if they are going to throw kunai at him or use other jutsu (elemental, hair needles, etc.) you think he knows how everything is going to happen. Sasuke is the only one with the Sharingan here and even he won't be able to predict stuff like this.



Actually ur giving the duo powers thay dont have and giving hebi sasuke reactions and speed he does not have and seriously denying and downplaying minatos feats..
[worst of all is the funny limitation people place on minato of his complete reliance of minato using kunai to get his ftg in range...dude carries kunai in his hand in every fight he rushed in with his base speed against obito with kunai in hand why cant he use this same tactic here like tobirama did against sm madara along with clones nope thats blasphemy]


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Actually ur giving the duo powers thay dont have and giving hebi sasuke reactions and speed he does not have and seriously denying and downplaying minatos feats..
> [worst of all is the funny limitation people place on minato of his complete reliance of minato using kunai to get his ftg in range...dude carries kunai in his hand in every fight he rushed in with his base speed against obito with kunai in hand why cant he use this same tactic here like tobirama did against sm madara along with clones nope thats blasphemy]



Sasuke has Sharingan precognition, he can predict when Minato is going to use handseals/throw kunai, and use a jutsu/throw kunai himself to stop it and he has summons (toad sages, Manda, Gamaken, etc.) and Jiraiya (possibly even Orochimaru coming out) to help him. As if everyone is going to just watch Minato attacking Sasuke and there is still no explanation for why would Minato concentrate so much on just Sasuke when he is vastly outnumbered.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

@dominus 
how did sasuke prediction help him against itachi hand speed when he himself admits he couldnt even see itachi form the seals while looking at itachi 
please just stop. I am writing walls of text but at least am not making shit up 

vastly outnumbered how? its 2 against 1. if he takes out sasuke its one against one. why wouldnt he take out sasuke when his biggest treat is genjutsu? 

Minato knows they have full knowledge if he spam kunai they have 2 options deflect them or move away 
The second the attempt reaching for their weapon pouch minato would know its the former 

its not hard i think maybe you urself have difficulties thinking very far


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @dominus
> how did sasuke prediction help him against itachi hand speed when he himself admits he couldnt even see itachi form the seals while looking at itachi
> please just stop. I am writing walls of text but at least am not making shit up
> 
> ...



Itachi's hand speed was praised by Kakashi, Kurenai, etc. Minato's was not.

If we count summons (why shouldn't we) it's 2 vs. 6-7 (Jiraiya, Sasuke, Shima, Fukasaku, Manda, Gamahiro, Gamaken, maybe even 8 if Orochimaru comes out) and if Sasuke controls Gamabunta it's 8-9 vs. 1.

It's just that you don't realize that this will happen so fast he will have no time to think about things like ducking, where exactly he's going to teleport, etc. and he won't know if they are going to use ninjutsu nor what ninjutsu.


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## sabre320 (Jan 14, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Sasuke has Sharingan precognition, he can predict when Minato is going to use handseals/throw kunai, and use a jutsu/throw kunai himself to stop it and he has summons (toad sages, Manda, Gamaken, etc.) and Jiraiya (possibly even Orochimaru coming out) to help him. As if everyone is going to just watch Minato attacking Sasuke and there is still no explanation for why would Minato concentrate so much on just Sasuke when he is vastly outnumbered.



The simple fact is minato can casually dodge the attacks from the duo and get into range with shunshin what you are seriously sidestepping is the fact is this here [worst of all is the funny limitation people place on minato of his complete reliance of minato using kunai to get his ftg in range...dude carries kunai in his hand in every fight he rushed in with his base speed against obito with kunai in hand why cant he use this same tactic here like tobirama did against sm madara along with clones nope thats blasphemy]

deva path was casually dancing around the giant summon trio....u are giving the base sharingan far far too much credit itachis hand speed is fast ur going with that have u seen minatos speed hype his feats far exceed itachis in kunai throwing speed and amount but u are ignoring that his fighting style revolved around both shunshin and ftg how is he supposed to fight ei and bee if ei is much faster then the kunai?

and now ur bringing orochimaru into this lol says it all dosent it


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

I'm pretty sure Minato can't fly like Deva Path, anyway I don't think the summons are enough to defeat him, they are good for distracting and keeping Minato at bay. I honestly don't see why the Sharingan can't predict when Minato's going to put his hand in the bag and then Sasuke can simply stop the kunai, he doesn't have to be as fast as Minato, but the Sharingan will make up for that. Why not bring Orochimaru into this, didn't he appear in Sasuke's fight against Itachi?


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Itachi's hand speed was praised by Kakashi, Kurenai, etc. Minato's was not.
> 
> If we count summons (why shouldn't we) it's 2 vs. 6-7 (Jiraiya, Sasuke, Shima, Fukasaku, Manda, Gamahiro, Gamaken, maybe even 8 if Orochimaru comes out) and if Sasuke controls Gamabunta it's 8-9 vs. 1.
> 
> It's just that you don't realize that this will happen so fast he will have no time to think about things like ducking, where exactly he's going to teleport, etc. and he won't know if they are going to use ninjutsu nor what ninjutsu.



kakashi did not witness minato throw any kunai or fight against him. so thats a dumb very dumb statement to make 

So jiraiya would summon a huge slow summon to hit minato when minato can simply tag it or better yet undo jiriaya control of the summon. btw if minato tags bunta, minato has a huge moveable target to always hirashin to 

 

so things would happen to fast for minato to keep up with yet TSB isnt too fast for him to react to?
or is a point blank kamui  

if anything were happening fast it would be sasuke who cant even see itachi form a seal and jiraiya that would suffering not minato

every single one of thier attacks in speed <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<kamui yet minato can react to kamui with one kunai in hand 

your making me sad

bringing orochimaru into it  

read the OP orochimaru isnt in this battle 

Please listen to sabre. if minato throwing speed were as slow as you are implying ei would be fucking over minato casually. 
unless like i have said you think everytime they fought ei waited for minato to throw kunai before attacking which is hilariously stupid 

Both Ei and B in cannon over the years would have had full knowledge on minato. Ei who is montrously faster than these 2 felt minato could not be defeated 

please explain how Ei would come to such a conclusion if minato couldnt even get at him  at will 

lord knows after their first battle Ei would have 2 tactics in mind 
1) fuck him over before any kunai thrown 
2) wait for minato to attack then counter attack 

clearly both would have failed. I would let you figure out why 

All of itachi weapon throwing skills <<<<<<< throwing 30 kunai in 1 swing


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

So what if Kakashi didn't see it why wasn't someone else surprised (A, B , fodders, etc.). You are not reading my posts this is the third time I'm telling you this they can use summons for distraction and keeping Minato at bay and for some reason you think only one summon or person will fight Minato while 5 others just watch. He barely reacted to Kamui and you are comparing different things, he didn't have to think much when he was just supposed to avoid Kamui, here you're suggesting he will throw kunai at them and look what they will do, think about which kunai to teleport to, think how close to teleport to a kunai, to duck and this will happen in a second. Orochimaru coming out isn't restricted. 

Edit: again just wall of text.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

Dominus said:


> So what if Kakashi didn't see it why wasn't someone else surprised (A, B , fodders, etc.). You are not reading my posts this is the third time I'm telling you this they can use summons for distraction and keeping Minato at bay and for some reason you think only one summon or person will fight Minato while 5 others just watch. He barely reacted to Kamui and you are comparing different things, he didn't have to think much when he was just supposed to avoid Kamui, here you're suggesting he will throw kunai at them and look what they will do, think about which kunai to teleport to, think how close to teleport to a kunai, to duck and this will happen in a second. Orochimaru coming out isn't restricted.
> 
> Edit: again just wall of text.



against just BS weak replies 
all summons are too fuckign slow to keep minato at bay for 0.00000000001 seconds
3 of them couldnt touch deva path 
i cant see how u would even bring summons up 
its sad 

its ok am done arguing with you. 

anyone with the reaction to throw a kunai and avoid kamui. very clearly has reaction feats to come up with plans and attack them. i dont see how thats difficult for u to get 

barely avoiding kamui my ass. he avoided it plane and simple. that puts him leaps and bounds and more leaps above both their reaction and speed exponentially


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

Again talking about Deva Path avoiding summons even though I explicitly said they aren't enough to hit him. Talk about dumb.
What exactly does Minato avoiding Kamui by using Hiraishin have to do with Minato's kunai throwing speed. Obito was pretty dumb thinking Minato won't teleport to a *marked* kunai.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

idiot!! because he threw it away from obito quite obviously 


i am not even talking about when obito phased to avoid the kunai. i am talk about the kamui wrap at the start of their battle. minato threw the kunai in his hand thats how he escaped

so quite clearly his throwing speed is far greater than u give it credit for 

the simple fact that u bring up summons at all is whats sad. they serve no purpose what so ever


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

Can you show me panels?

Summons were useful against Pain, Danzō, Naruto, etc. why wouldn't they be useful against Minato.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

show you panels of what?
is it somehow news that minato avoided kamui? am confused.  
go read the manga, or why u arguing if u dont even have all the facts


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

What else?

If you're talking about them fighting on top of the Hokage Mountain, Minato didn't throw any kunai.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

Allow me to prove you wrong poor little newb!!! *pats head*

Notice here he has the kunai in hand. 

Naruto and Sasuke running together is evidence of KCM Naruto and Sasuke having the same movement speed.

in the last panel the kunai is no where close to obito. if he let go of it. it would still be in the air 

notice top left and middle left panel he isnt holding any kunai. what happened to the one he was holding then??

Naruto and Sasuke running together is evidence of KCM Naruto and Sasuke having the same movement speed.



if he hirashin to a marker already existing please explain what happened to the kunai he was holding 

you would also notice in that general area there are no other kunai which clearly dismisses any claims that they were kunai there before 

empty field 

please feel free to counter


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

The kunai is still in Minato's left hand and how can he throw the kunai when Obito grabbed his arm.  

[sp][/sp]

And it's not the kunai he teleported to because here you can see 2 kunai.



[sp][/sp]


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

lol u did not even look at the panels i showed u 
he got another one out 
 

look at the panel and tell me where the kunai is 

Naruto and Sasuke running together is evidence of KCM Naruto and Sasuke having the same movement speed.


go on


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

There is no panel of this that you're speaking and that link doesn't work.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

Chapter 502 page 10
Look at it please 

Is Itachi using Susano'o here?

Where is his kunai . If that one on the ground was there already ?
why isn't he holding it anymore


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

[sp=This could be a kunai in his left hand (in the fourth panel) it's not really visible][/sp]

[sp=Look where Obito and Minato were fighting][/sp]

How could Minato throw a kunai from there to some field outside of the village when Obito had already started using Kamui. If he wanted to throw it, why didn't he throw it right beside him.


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## sabre320 (Jan 14, 2015)

Dominus said:


> I'm pretty sure Minato can't fly like Deva Path, anyway I don't think the summons are enough to defeat him, they are good for distracting and keeping Minato at bay. I honestly don't see why the Sharingan can't predict when Minato's going to put his hand in the bag and then Sasuke can simply stop the kunai, he doesn't have to be as fast as Minato, but the Sharingan will make up for that. Why not bring Orochimaru into this, didn't he appear in Sasuke's fight against Itachi?



Um deva wasnt evading the summons by flying wth..you are seriously sidestepping is the fact is this here [worst of all is the funny limitation people place on minato of his complete reliance of minato using kunai to get his ftg in range...dude carries kunai in his hand in every fight he rushed in with his base speed against obito with kunai in hand why cant he use this same tactic here like tobirama did against sm madara along with clones nope thats blasphemy]

I provided you minatos speed feats with kunai whats ur feats for sasuke his sharingan couldnt even see itachi make a clone in the shuriken clash......just saying sasuke can stop the kunai is baseless when his feats arent even close......minato can also teleport to the kunai while deflected and throw them to constantly pressure please provide feats hebi sasuke couldnt even percieve sick itachis speed properly while pressured...i can say part 1 sasuke can react to a kunai thrown by 6th gate lee and deflect it because he has a sharingan .....


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Um deva wasnt evading the summons by flying wth



I already explained it to both of you , they don't have to hit him to be useful.



> I provided you minatos speed feats with kunai whats ur feats for sasuke his sharingan couldnt even see itachi make a clone in the shuriken clash......just saying sasuke can stop the kunai is baseless when his feats arent even close......minato can also teleport to the kunai while deflected and throw them to constantly pressure please provide feats hebi sasuke couldnt even percieve sick itachis speed properly while pressured...i can say part 1 sasuke can react to a kunai thrown by 6th gate lee and deflect it because he has a sharingan .....



Itachi's hand speed was noted to be very fast, Minato's wasn't.



> ..you are seriously sidestepping is the fact is this here [worst of all is the funny limitation people place on minato of his complete reliance of minato using kunai to get his ftg in range...dude carries kunai in his hand in every fight he rushed in with his base speed against obito with kunai in hand why cant he use this same tactic here like tobirama did against sm madara along with clones nope thats blasphemy]



So what if he runs at them with it and then throws it, they deflect it.


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## sabre320 (Jan 14, 2015)

Dominus said:


> I already explained it to both of you , they don't have to hit him to be useful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are u freaking joking itachis hands were stated to be fast big fkn do....compared to minatos speed hype its like a lake to an ocean...kakashi remembered minato in bm narutos shunshin while he said at itachis hands fast...minatos whole style was based on kunai ,ftg and shunshin do people need to specify his hands are fast for you when feats show that his feats are so much better with kunai and without yet u are blatantly ignoring it with a stubborn passion...


So what if he runs at them with it and then throws it, they deflect itck 
at close range raikage gets trolled by minato with kunai obito gets his shit stomped in and they simply deflect the kunai...

Is Itachi using Susano'o here?
so let me get this straight sasuke can react to minato with kunai at this distance when he utilizes ftg when he was stated to be faster then tobirama and better at ftg


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

A and Obito didn't have full knowledge like Minato's opponents here and I don't think Sasuke and Jiraiya would be rushing and attacking Minato head on. Like I said earlier in my opinion they could win by outlasting him because he's outnumbered or with Fukasaku and Shima's genjutsu. Another option is Orochimaru coming out.


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## sabre320 (Jan 14, 2015)

Dominus said:


> A and Obito didn't have full knowledge like Minato's opponents here and I don't think Sasuke and Jiraiya would be rushing and attacking Minato head on. Like I said earlier in my opinion they could win by outlasting him because he's outnumbered or with Fukasaku and Shima's genjutsu. Another option is Orochimaru coming out.



Minatos the one rushing at him minato shunshins in while spreading kunai around along with clones with kunai in hand...and you keep on sidestepping the arguments again and again...orochimaru is not mentioned in the matchup using him is plain desperation..


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Minatos the one rushing at him minato shunshins in while spreading kunai around along with clones with kunai in hand...and you keep on sidestepping the arguments again and again...orochimaru is not mentioned in the matchup using him is plain desperation..



Except that I think he won't be able to get that close to them when he's outnumbered.
Manda isn't mentioned either, Sasuke can't use him?


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## sabre320 (Jan 14, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Except that I think he won't be able to get that close to them when he's outnumbered.
> Manda isn't mentioned either, Sasuke can't use him?



and whats going to stop him from shunshining in deva danced around three summons like it was nothing he can easily evade any jutsu they throw at him whats stopping him?? especially when he can use clones with ftg swap and kunai spam??


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> and whats going to stop him from shunshining in deva danced around three summons like it was nothing he can easily evade any jutsu they throw at him whats stopping him?? especially when he can use clones with ftg swap and kunai spam??



Boss summons aren't the only ones there toad sages have their own techniques (tongue, elemental, Frog Kata, etc.), Jiraiya has clones, hair techniques, Yomi Numa, various toad and fire element techniques, Sasuke has genjutsu, Katon and Raiton techniques, snakes, etc. Not saying they will defeat him with that just keep him at bay, but who knows with so many people on the battlefield maybe he'll get tricked by a clone or put under genjutsu... Minato could win as well, I just think his opponents have better chances.


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## sabre320 (Jan 14, 2015)

Jirayias fastest attack is something that can be easily reacted to by animal path with a summon....those techniques arent pressuring him not to mention minato has much better reaction and shunshin so he will be faster to initiate...worst of all for ur argument minato can use clones and the clones or minato can use space time barrier to redirect the attacks leaving the path clear for either the real minato or clones..


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

What he fails to utterly understand is every single one of their techniques or every combination of them is slower by a good margin than Minato just throwing a kunai 
I seriously don't see how they are keeping him at bay 

He is faster physically and has better reactions has better weapon skills 

Then the evil ability to appear anywhere he has a mark or kunai 

He can sit and wait for them to attack eventually they would have to come in close 

Again only an absolute moron would bring up giant summons that helps Minato not them 

Minato would tag any and all summons with no effort from there he can appear anywhere in the vicinity of a giant toad do you realize the limitless hirashin escape routes that offers ? 

Maybe dominos isn't smart enough to know summons are a terrible idea jiriaya and sasuke however would know this


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

I think they will pressure Minato you don't. Our views differ, there isn't much to discuss. I have like 30 posts in this thread I already said pretty much everything I wanted.

@ Icegaze 

Since you didn't continue our previous discussion about Minato vs. Obito  I guess you see now that I was right?


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

I didn't carry on because if you can't see in the panel I provided twice that Minato isn't holding the kunai then clearly am not going to convince you when panels drawn by kishi can't 

and while we are on the subject of kunai throwing please care to show any feats from jiriaya or sasukw which puts their ninjutsu or weapon throwing skills on par with kakashi kamui wrap speed 

Go on I'll wait


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I didn't carry on because if you can't see in the panel I provided twice that Minato isn't holding the kunai then clearly am not going to convince you when panels drawn by kishi can't



[sp=I already explained why it's impossible for Minato to have thrown that kunai]





> [sp=This could be a kunai in his left hand (in the fourth panel) it's not really visible][/sp]
> 
> [sp=Look where Obito and Minato were fighting][/sp]
> 
> How could Minato throw a kunai from there to some field outside of the village when Obito had already started using Kamui. If he wanted to throw it, why didn't he throw it right beside him.


[/sp]



> and while we are on the subject of kunai throwing please care to show any feats from jiriaya or sasukw which puts their ninjutsu or weapon throwing skills on par with kakashi kamui wrap speed
> 
> Go on I'll wait



I like how everyone compares Minato's speed in that instance to Kakashi's Kamui while noone compares it to Gaara to make Minato look faster.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

Actually everyone compares it to gaara as well 
Why dispute that 
Would be stupid to do so 
Ask kazekage94 he goes on about it 

Fact is they timed their attacks if Minato kunai throwing speed was that slow he won't be able to time his attack with a much faster kamui 
Same for gaara sand wall 

Gaara however isn't in this thread hence why he wasn't brought up 

besides that feat . Minato while running at obito and obito doing the same  
Minato still had the reactions to decide where he wants to appear and how before obito could even notice he had teleported . Minato could have appeared anywhere else and chose there 
So clearly he a quick thinker and even if we are to assume he isn't the ability to appear anywhere within a 5 m radius makes him a nightmare for 2 conspicuously slower opponents with absolutely no feats or hype to even suggest they can keep up physically


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Actually everyone compares it to gaara as well
> Why dispute that
> Would be stupid to do so
> Ask kazekage94 he goes on about it
> ...



If Kakashi using Kamui, Minato throwing kunai and Gaara getting on the ground is all at the same speed, I don't see how that's so impressive for Minato.

That other thing you're talking about that is a jutsu Minato frequently uses, hence calling it Hiraishin lvl. 2. There was not much to think about. However I don't think he frequently fights in the way you're talking about.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

Dominus said:


> If Kakashi using Kamui, Minato throwing kunai and Gaara getting on the ground is all at the same speed, I don't see how that's so impressive for Minato.
> 
> That other thing you're talking about that is a jutsu Minato frequently uses, hence calling it Hiraishin lvl. 2. There was not much to think about. However I don't think he frequently fights in the way you're talking about.



And you don't think so based on what ?
The multiple fights he has had with people who didn't hve full knowledge 

also that just means gaara can create a sand wall fast 
Unless you trying to imply kamui is slow now


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

Gaara was never shown to be fast and Kakashi's MS wasn't the same as it was at the beginning of the war. I honestly don't see that as a moment that can be used for speed comparison like how Darui was shown to be as fast as the Raikage.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Gaara was never shown to be fast and Kakashi's MS wasn't the same as it was at the beginning of the war. I honestly don't see that as a moment that can be used for speed comparison like how Darui was shown to be as fast as the Raikage.



Why can't Darui be as fast as V1 Ei 
Any logic there ?

So gaara sand is slow is what you are claiming then .


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## Dominus (Jan 14, 2015)

Considering A focuses only on his nintaijutsu, is more powerful than him and was using his Raiton chakra mode, it really doesn't make much sense to me.

Gaara getting to the ground before Minato threw the kunai supports my argument that Minato's kunai throwing speed was never shown to be something to freak out about.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2015)

exactly to you it doesnt make much sense doesnt mean kishi didnt feel it was right. juugo was able to react to v1 Ei i dont see why the likes of darui shouldnt be able to keep with that speed 

ok but how about minato throwing the kunai before kamui wrap ?? or are you just going to ignore that then claim kamui is slow to make your point  

again please show any feats at all from sasuke and jiraiya which put them remotely close to minato speed level or remotely close to the things minato was reacting to. go on ill wait 

jiriaya fastest attack blocked by animal realm using a summon, his speed and strength unimpressive enough to be blocked without looking from a path. 

yeah sure both sasuke and jiraiya are physical and speed  beasts that can content with minato 

tell me how would they go about stopping Ei from getting to them if this were Ei?

because Ei is admittedly well slower than minato from point A to B


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## ki0 (Jan 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> exactly to you it doesnt make much sense doesnt mean kishi didnt feel it was right. juugo was able to react to v1 Ei i dont see why the likes of darui shouldnt be able to keep with that speed
> 
> ok but how about minato throwing the kunai before kamui wrap ?? or are you just going to ignore that then claim kamui is slow to make your point
> 
> ...



- The reason Jugo was able to react to Raikage is because E attacked from far away.

- Don't you think that Darui being as fast as the Raikage is a bit of a stretch? If Darui was as fast as Raikage (with lightning shroud) he would likely be faster than Minato (without Hirashin)


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## sabre320 (Jan 15, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Considering A focuses only on his nintaijutsu, is more powerful than him and was using his Raiton chakra mode, it really doesn't make much sense to me.
> 
> Gaara getting to the ground before Minato threw the kunai supports my argument that Minato's kunai throwing speed was never shown to be something to freak out about.



ahan...so gaaras sand which intercepted v2 ei and blocked enton by sasuke...is slow...minato threw a kunai went into sage mode formed a rasengan and teleported next to juubidara before kamui warp had begun even juubidara was surprised initially why are u downplaying mate kakashis kamui can warp bm naruto so fast that ms obito with mankegyo precog could not see it....

now please address my earlier point regarding minato shunshining in like tobirama against sm madara with kunai in hand

Jirayias fastest attack is something that can be easily reacted to by animal path with a summon....those techniques arent pressuring him not to mention minato has much better reaction and shunshin so he will be faster to initiate...worst of all for ur argument minato can use clones and the clones or minato can use space time barrier to redirect the attacks leaving the path clear for either the real minato or clones..


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2015)

ki0 said:


> - The reason Jugo was able to react to Raikage is because E attacked from far away.
> 
> - Don't you think that Darui being as fast as the Raikage is a bit of a stretch? If Darui was as fast as Raikage (with lightning shroud) he would likely be faster than Minato (without Hirashin)




That was V1 Ei I don't see why Darui can't be that fast 
V2 Ei is physically faster than minato nothing was said at all about V1 Ei being faster than minato 

Juugo reacted because he could that doesn't suddenly mean everyone can or that Ei isn't fast 

Yes Ei was far away 

Let me ask you and dominos something would you say gai is fast in 7 gate when he attacked Judara

If so why ? Cuz he crossed that distance in that short time frame ?

While minato kunai crossed a good distance int he time frame for kamui wrap quite obviously minato kunai throwing speed is impressive


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## ki0 (Jan 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> That was V1 Ei I don't see why Darui can't be that fast
> V2 Ei is physically faster than minato nothing was said at all about V1 Ei being faster than minato
> 
> Juugo reacted because he could that doesn't suddenly mean everyone can or that Ei isn't fast
> ...



- Shii didn't say anything about V2 Raikage, he was talking about Raikage with Lightening Shroud in general. 

- I think he's fast, he was able to hold Juubidara down with just taijutsu.

- Plz show a link. I don't remember exactly how that fight went down.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2015)

ki0 said:


> - Shii didn't say anything about V2 Raikage, he was talking about Raikage with Lightening Shroud in general.
> 
> - I think he's fast, he was able to hold Juubidara down with just taijutsu.
> 
> - Plz show a link. I don't remember exactly how that fight went down.



That's why u have the manga to read go read it 

If 7 gate gai is fast minato throwing a kunai is fast 
Both got to Juudara very quickly 

Darui travelled the same distance in the same time as V1 Ei no reason to think he is slower 

Ei also said he is slower than minato

So I ask u do u think sasuke can prevent Ei from closing in on him?

It he can't he can't stop minato either


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## Dominus (Jan 15, 2015)

So you think Darui is capable of this:

[sp][/sp]

[sp][/sp]


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2015)

darui kept up in 1 instance 
i am not saying darui can always keep up with V1 Ei 

do answer my other question though 

can hebi sasuke create distance against V2 Ei?? if he cant minato gets to him even quickly 

if we can agree like you have shown V1 Ei is faster than darui 

then minato is faster than V2 Ei 

so go on explain why hebi sasuke cant create distance against Ei someone slower than minato but somehow can pull that off against minato 


ps: if you even attempt to think hebi sasuke can create distance against V2 Ei i would laugh sooo hard


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## Dominus (Jan 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> darui kept up in 1 instance
> i am not saying darui can always keep up with V1 Ei
> 
> do answer my other question though
> ...



I already told you my opinion, but it's different from yours. I think it's easier for Sasuke to stop kunai then to stop A rushing at him.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2015)

if that were true then Ei would be able to beat minato wouldnt he 

since the only reason it would be easier for sasuke to stop the kunai would be because it is much slower than Ei ability to move from point A to B 

so then i ask you again why was Ei unable to beat minato to the point where he thought minato could not be defeated


u saying he let him spread kunai everytime or that he let him win just so he could know what loosing was all about ?

Ei made a clear statement. minato is faster than me. Therefore from point A to B minato would always get there first 

how he gets there was taken into account by Ei 


unless you are saying Ei and minato start at the race line no marker at the end of the line for minato therefore  Ei would win that 100 m race

if you think that then kishi and Ei firmly disagree with you


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## Dominus (Jan 15, 2015)

You still don't get it, I do know Minato is faster than A, you don't have to repeat it like a broken record.

A kunai isn't as strong as the Raikage, if another kunai hits it, it will fall. But a kunai being thrown at A won't do anything to him.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2015)

actually i do have to repeat it like a broken record since i am obviously talking to a wall 

again if sasuke can react to minato main way of being faster than Ei then sasuke would react to Ei. its not like i am limiting sasuke to kunai against Ei if Ei were trying to close  in 

its very simple, how would sasuke stop Ei from getting to him. Since you pretty much agree he cant why would he be able to against someone faster

when of course that person main means of being faster is getting a mark at a destination then moving to it

if he was slow at getting marks where he needs them he wouldnt be all that fast now would he. Ei would be the faster one, do you get that 

konohamaru with the ability to use hirashin is still slower than Ei in a fight. minato is not, i would let you figure out why


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## Dominus (Jan 15, 2015)

I already told you everything I have to say. If you don't agree with me, fine.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2015)

GG epic reply
Both jiraiya and sasuke don't Havr the level to stay more than 5m away from every kunai which can be thrown one at a time or in any manner minato wants

The will be limited exclusively to mid range ninjutsu as close range jutsu spells death 

Their fastest jutsu are hair needles and chidori eiso. Things Minato can dodge without hirashin

As for summon they will be huge hirashin markers making it even harder to anticipate where Minato will teleport to


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