# The race battle. Minato Vs Ei



## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2015)

100 m race. 
Ei vs minato. no marker for minato at the end of the finish line 

Who gets to the finish line first and why


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2015)

by hype, it's probably A.
Though, Minato's feet of crossing Konoha in 1 second, and going around the Juubi without anyone noticing him
suggest otherwise. Oh well...


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## sabre320 (Jan 15, 2015)

Minato throws kunai to the finish line while shunshining there then uses ftg to the location...


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## Dominus (Jan 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Though, Minato's feet of crossing Konoha in 1 second



You mean when he saved Kushina?


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2015)

Dominus said:


> You mean when he saved Kushina?



No, when he stopped Kurama. 
See here
piercing capacity
Kurama is out of the village


here
piercing capacity

in the upper panels Minato is on the Hokage Mountain, but in the lower panel, he is already on top
Of Gamabunta, who's on top of Kurama, out side of the village.


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## Dominus (Jan 15, 2015)

Well, we can't be sure what happened there, it happened off-panel.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> by hype, it's probably A.
> Though, Minato's feet of crossing Konoha in 1 second, and going around the Juubi without anyone noticing him
> suggest otherwise. Oh well...



And he couldnt dodge Ei with Shunshin.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> by hype, it's probably A.
> Though, Minato's feet of crossing Konoha in 1 second, and going around the Juubi without anyone noticing him
> suggest otherwise. Oh well...



omg hussain are you serious 
what happened

for once i would have agreed with you if u said minato gets there first

because i believe he would otherwise Ei wouldnt say minato is faster than him 

how can minato be faster than him if he is unable to get to a destination first ?

i strongly doubt A meant minato had to have a mark at a location to get there first. 

otherwise it would mean everytime Ei lost a fight with minato he would have been stupid enough to let minato set up marks everywhere before the fight


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## sabre320 (Jan 15, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Well, we can't be sure what happened there, it happened off-panel.



what exactly happened offpanel....he shunshined in on panel no markers no ftg...


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## Sadgoob (Jan 15, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Minato throws kunai to the finish line while shunshining there then uses ftg to the location...



Physics.


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## Ghost (Jan 15, 2015)

Ei wins. Barely.


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## Dominus (Jan 15, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> what exactly happened offpanel....he shunshined in on panel no markers no ftg...



Show me. **


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2015)

if Ei wins why could he not ever catch minato?

quite obviously if he did minato would have been broken in half


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## sabre320 (Jan 15, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Physics.



Lol its pretty much how minatos style works he holds a kunai in his hand while shunshining towards the finish line throws the kunai at the finish line and teleports to the kunai....he can throw kunai faster then ei can shunshin his whole style revolves around this did it against obito would be same against ei too


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## sabre320 (Jan 15, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Show me. **



piercing capacity

what more do you want its on panel he shunshined over to konoha and blitzed him with food cart destroyer no markers he didnt throw any kunai what is ur doubt here?


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## Dominus (Jan 15, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> piercing capacity
> 
> what more do you want its on panel he shunshined over to konoha and blitzed him with food cart destroyer no markers he didnt throw any kunai what is ur doubt here?



Yeah, you don't know what off and on panel means. There is no panel of Minato using Shunshin there.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 15, 2015)

Minato's base speed was never properly addressed. We never got to see him show it besides when he saved his son from Obito's kunai.

Ei probably wins by hype but I'm not so sure...


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## Empathy (Jan 15, 2015)

I can't be the only one who thought something prejudice upon seeing the title (and so close to MLK day, too). 

Anyway, Minato only wins if he has a mark prepared at the finish line. Maybe restrict version two to make it interesting; or just have Minato's _shunshin_ versus A's in version one.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2015)

So people of A wins 
How is minato faster than A
He directly said minato is faster than me 
Therefore if a person were 100m away minato would get to that person before A

I don't see how A wins when he clearly admitted he is slower 

He didn't say oh if minato has a mark somewhere he is faster than me


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 15, 2015)

Depends, his kunai throwing speed, if he did indeed begin throwing it after Kakashi utilized Kamui (and not before or at the same time) is easily the fastest in the verse, but we only see the kunai land at Judara's foot a mere panel after Kakashi activates Kamui, we do not know if he began throwing it before Kakashi began using Kamui.

All things considered, it's whether or not you believe his kunai speed is that fast. Personally, I believe he threw it after Kakashi used Kamui, otherwise Kishimoto would've had a small panel of him throwing it beforehand, not of it simply landing, that means that Minato can throw a kunai 30m well before Kakashi can complete a Kamui warp- meaning that his kunai is literally faster than Sasuke's V3 Susano Arrow (Kakashi warped that Arrow with Kamui). With that being said, I think he can throw the kunai to the finish line before Ei can shunshin all the way there. But that's just me, there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise, such as the fact that Minato could only drop his kunai in reaction to Ei's 10m blitz, and the fact that his kunai throw only slightly outpaced his own shunshin speed when he tossed it through 14 year old Obito.

All things considered, Minato outright reacted to Kamui against Obito without prior knowledge that he could do that, and Minato reacted to Ei's full speed several times. On top of that, he has access to an instant teleporation technique, meaning by default, that man can move his body strategically faster than Ei can, and arguably anyone else in the verse.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Depends, his kunai throwing speed, if he did indeed begin throwing it after Kakashi utilized Kamui (and not before or at the same time) is easily the fastest in the verse, but we only see the kunai land at Judara's foot a mere panel after Kakashi activates Kamui, we do not know if he began throwing it before Kakashi began using Kamui.
> 
> All things considered, it's whether or not you believe his kunai speed is that fast. Personally, I believe he threw it after Kakashi used Kamui, otherwise Kishimoto would've had a small panel of him throwing it beforehand, not of it simply landing, that means that Minato can throw a kunai 30m well before Kakashi can complete a Kamui warp- meaning that his kunai is literally faster than Sasuke's V3 Susano Arrow (Kakashi warped that Arrow with Kamui). With that being said, I think he can throw the kunai to the finish line before Ei can shunshin all the way there. But that's just me, there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise, such as the fact that Minato could only drop his kunai in reaction to Ei's 10m blitz, and the fact that his kunai throw only slightly outpaced his own shunshin speed when he tossed it through 14 year old Obito.
> 
> All things considered, Minato outright reacted to Kamui against Obito without prior knowledge that he could do that, and Minato reacted to Ei's full speed several times. On top of that, he has access to an instant teleporation technique, meaning by default, that man can move his body strategically faster than Ei can, and arguably anyone else in the verse.



Minato didn't only drop his Kunai against Ei 
He did so intentionally and it was a flick he managed to get behind Ei
He timed his attack quite obviously 
Ei was infinitely far from blitzing him 

While I would say his kunai speed isn't susanoo arrow fast or anytbinf like that 
The fact is he will get to the finish line  before Ei because he is faster than Ei 



As shown and stated in the manga

Hidan said he is the slowest attacking member in akatsuki. His method of killing is the slowest it takes into account how he goes about it 
I don't see why Ei saying minato is faster than me wouldn't take into account how minato goes about getting to a destination before Ei

If a target were 100m away minato would always get there first otherwise he wouldn't be faster 
Husain bolt is faster than me he would win a 100 m race against me whether he decides to wear nike or Addidas


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Minato didn't only drop his Kunai against Ei
> He did so intentionally and it was a flick he managed to get behind Ei
> He timed his attack quite obviously
> Ei was infinitely far from blitzing him
> ...


There are different types of speed, this is obvious. Minato's mental and limb (hands generally- letting go of Kunai) reaction speed is greater than Ei's, clearly. His hand speed is arguably greater as well (Kunai throw speed and the amount of Kunai he can throw immediately). However, what really made Ei believe Minato was faster was the *Flying Thunder God technique*, which like Ei's *Raiton no yoroi*, is a speed-based movement Ninjutsu, the only difference is Minato's moves his body from point A to point B instantly (faster than Ei) and it requires a trace of his chakra on point B to move to it. 

In no way shape or form does Ei stating Minato is faster mean that Minato would beat him in a 100m yard dash, this verse has a number of different speeds as far as Ninja are concerned (Foot Speed, Shunshin Speed, *Reaction Speed*, *Hand Speed*, Hand Seal Speed, *Ninjutsu speed*).

This is irrelevant, however, because Minato obviously got the best of Ei every time they fought with his superior speed through Flying Thunder God, kicking him around and dodging his attacks effortlessly, that is what made him faster than Ei.


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## sabre320 (Jan 15, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Yeah, you don't know what off and on panel means. There is no panel of Minato using Shunshin there.



what da heck are u talkin abt what do you think happened there how could kishi show shunshin over such a distance...there was no ftg markers how da hell did he get there man up and provide some  proof of ur assertations that he used ftg there or admit ur making baseless arguments to downplay manga feats


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> There are different types of speed, this is obvious. Minato's mental and limb (hands generally- letting go of Kunai) reaction speed is greater than Ei's, clearly. His hand speed is arguably greater as well (Kunai throw speed and the amount of Kunai he can throw immediately). However, what really made Ei believe Minato was faster was the *Flying Thunder God technique*, which like Ei's *Raiton no yoroi*, is a speed-based movement Ninjutsu, the only difference is Minato's moves his body from point A to point B instantly (faster than Ei) and it requires a trace of his chakra on point B to move to it.
> 
> In no way shape or form does Ei stating Minato is faster mean that Minato would beat him in a 100m yard dash, this verse has a number of different speeds as far as Ninja are concerned (Foot Speed, Shunshin Speed, *Reaction Speed*, *Hand Speed*, Hand Seal Speed, *Ninjutsu speed*).
> 
> This is irrelevant, however, because Minato obviously got the best of Ei every time they fought with his superior speed through Flying Thunder God, kicking him around and dodging his attacks effortlessly, that is what made him faster than Ei.



And how was he able to use flying thunder god if he couldn't get his kunai close to Ei when he wanted ?
Or are we to assume minato only ever played on the counter 
Though after their first bout on panel any idiot would know Ei best tactic any time after would be to play on the counter 

Ei wasn't specific as to why or how minato is faster 
He just said minato is faster than me 
That obviously involves the method of getting from A to B 

Hirashin marker is no different from raiton 
People don't discount Ei amping up to V2 then using shunshin 

Why would anyone assume minato throwing a kunai then using hirashin would be slower than that ?


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## sabre320 (Jan 15, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Depends, his kunai throwing speed, if he did indeed begin throwing it after Kakashi utilized Kamui (and not before or at the same time) is easily the fastest in the verse, but we only see the kunai land at Judara's foot a mere panel after Kakashi activates Kamui, we do not know if he began throwing it before Kakashi began using Kamui.
> 
> All things considered, it's whether or not you believe his kunai speed is that fast. Personally, I believe he threw it after Kakashi used Kamui, otherwise Kishimoto would've had a small panel of him throwing it beforehand, not of it simply landing, that means that Minato can throw a kunai 30m well before Kakashi can complete a Kamui warp- meaning that his kunai is literally faster than Sasuke's V3 Susano Arrow (Kakashi warped that Arrow with Kamui). With that being said, I think he can throw the kunai to the finish line before Ei can shunshin all the way there. But that's just me, there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise, such as the fact that Minato could only drop his kunai in reaction to Ei's 10m blitz, and the fact that his kunai throw only slightly outpaced his own shunshin speed when he tossed it through 14 year old Obito.
> 
> All things considered, Minato outright reacted to Kamui against Obito without prior knowledge that he could do that, and Minato reacted to Ei's full speed several times. On top of that, he has access to an instant teleporation technique, meaning by default, that man can move his body strategically faster than Ei can, and arguably anyone else in the verse.



Kunai throwing speed can certainly be faster then sasukes arrow lee could throw a kunai fast enough to intercept the guodama and 8th gate gai the guodama that needed dual kamui to be dodged and barely.....

Link removed

here we are shown minato throwing the kunai at the same time as kakashi could activate kamui and gaara could begin the process of raising the sand..the act was shown to happen at the same time and minato had the reactions to use senjutsu form a rasengan before kamui warp had begun.. just because combinations are shown left or right from each other does not mean they are happening one after another..
Link removed

all attacks were fired at the same time here but were shown left to each other..

fact is minato launched a kunai faster then kakashi could activate kamui this is the same kakashi that can activate and use kamui mid summon on gedo mazou and can use kamui so fast that he can warp bm minato faster then obito can percieve with his mankegyo...

he launches the kunai while shunshining toward the finish line then teleports to the kunai


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## Dominus (Jan 15, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> what da heck are u talkin abt what do you think happened there how could kishi show shunshin over such a distance...there was no ftg markers how da hell did he get there man up and provide some  proof of ur assertations that he used ftg there or admit ur making baseless arguments to downplay manga feats



I'm not claiming anything, you are the one who's certain he used Shunshin. If you're so sure prove it. And no, Hiraishin marks don't always have to be shown like here.
[sp][/sp]


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 15, 2015)

Minato's shunshin is faster than Ay's

In a race from point A-B, Minato will always win. It's pretty ridiculous for anyone at this point to think Minato was only faster than Ay with Hirashin. It was mintos shunshin and hirashin that made him the fastest man alive. How could Ay acknowldge minatos speed so much if Minato without hirashin wasn't actually faster than Ay.

Obito/Tobi also used space time ninjutsu to get from A to B, and was fast enough to even react to Ays punch. But Ay not once acknowledged his speed, that tells you that space time ninjutsu isn't the reason minato is faster than ay. Otherwise Ay would not have said that there was no man faster than him since minatos death. Because he had witnessed Tobi's teleportation speed already. 

Minato by feats has shunshin feats far greater than Ay's in both speed and distance (especially distance). Where the confusion comes from that leaves people skeptical is the fact that Minato mostly relies on ftg. Well duh... The databook clearly states Hiraishin's *swiftness that surpasses shunshin.*So of course minato will use the better technique, shunshin is D rank, while Hiraishin is S rank. Hirashin is more usefel, faster and practical, so of course minato will prefer it more.

People assume Minato can't avoid Ay without Hiraishin, which is rubbish. Minato used Hirashin to not only evade Ays speed, but to counter his speed and attack him all at the same time. Using Hirashin, he was able to perform like 3 different actions at once. Where as if he used shunshin, all that would have done is allowed him to evade. With Hiraishin, he is capable of doing so much more, as it is 10x more effective that shunshin. Example is kcm naruto vs ay, Naruto could only get out of the way of Ays punch using shunshin. Where as Minato was able to appear on top of Ay and get into his blind spot. So shunshin is of little use to minato in that kind of situation.

Ays shunshin is enhanced with lightning chakra, therefore Ay has more versatility in movement. Because he can maintain his speeds longer, and change directions easily. Minato on the other hand doesn't have that, that's why his shunshin feats are always direct and in a straight line. So although Ays shunshin may be more versatile, Minatos shunshin still has the greater speed.

All Minato's shunshin feats have him getting from one place to another in an instant. So fast that it even looks like hiraishin. Ay could never cross a 100m distance faster than Minato if both are using shunshin. There's a reason kcm narutos shunshin was compared to minatos by Yamato, Killer Bee and Tsunade. Why would kishi make the comparisons if minato wasn't capable. Even kakashi thought bm narutos speed was a sign of minatos appearance:

- 
(faster than kakashi can even move his hand)

- Sasuke called him out on holding back and being solely on the defensive instead of the offensive.
(covers the same distance kakashi took 2-3 pages to run, minato does it in 1 panel).
- 
(covers same distance again that kakashi at full speed took 2 pages to do)

- 
(Arrives on the battlefield 5 pages before the other hokages can. Even before tobirama the former fastest man alive. Why would hiruzen and tobirama acknowldge his speed if he wasn't the fastest with shunshin. No hirashin was used to reach that battlefield. Tobirama also cannot be slower thaan minato with hirashin, becaue both are instant).

- especially when he reacts to 8th Gated Gai's initial punch a chapter er so later
(faster than obito can strike)

- 
(faster than kurama can strike. Look at the distance minato has covered within a mere instant with shunshin alone, never seen ay cover a distance remotely this long and at such speed)

- Sasuke called him out on holding back and being solely on the defensive instead of the offensive. 
(Look where minato is standing in 1 panel, at look how far kurama is. Then a second later look at the distance minato has covered).

Ays got nothing on minatos shunshin speed.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 15, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Minato's shunshin is faster than Ay's
> 
> In a race from point A-B, Minato will always win. It's pretty ridiculous for anyone at this point to think Minato was only faster than Ay with Hirashin. It was mintos shunshin and hirashin that made him the fastest man alive. How could Ay acknowldge minatos speed so much if Minato without hirashin wasn't actually faster than Ay.
> 
> ...



3 quastions:

1. Why do you bring KCM Minato's feats, when we are talking about base Minato, without Kurama amp?

2. Why Minato dodged Ei only with Hiraishin, not shunshin?

3. What Kakashi are you talking about - young, or adult?


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2015)

@rasen nice post  however 
people might say when minato saved kid kakashi it was thanks to hirashin 
i disagree because when he used hirashin right after rin noticed the ridiculous speed. she failed to point that out the first time. So that indicates to me he saved kakashi with shunshin. 

While i wouldnt say minato shunshin >Ei shunshin in V2 i would however say the combination of minato shunshin+throwing a kunai (which obviously moves faster than minato shunshin)+hirashin to a location 
makes minato>>>>>>>faster than Ei


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## StarWanderer (Jan 16, 2015)

Ok guys, *RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki* will definetely ignore me. I am too good for him to debate. 

But i hope somebody will answer my quastion.

Why Minato dodged Ei only with Hiraishin and pointblank?


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## Mercurial (Jan 16, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Kunai throwing speed can certainly be faster then sasukes arrow lee could throw a kunai fast enough to intercept the guodama and 8th gate gai the guodama that needed dual kamui to be dodged and barely.....
> 
> hitting Kakashi
> 
> ...



So in your book Minato can launch a kunai faster than Kakashi can activate Kamui on a human body (when Kakashi was just waiting for Gaara to raise the sand wall to cover Obito). As we've seen Kakashi can Kamui a full human body so fast that Mangekyo + Rinnegan Obito, even with full knowledge, couldn't even see it. So basically being Minato's kunai even faster than Kakashi's Kamui warp, how could young Obito react and dodge Minato's kunai by like 10 cm point blank?

And yeah, Lee can throw kunai faster than 8th Gate Gai can move (in mid air and not at full speed to let the others support him, but whatever). So Lee can oneshot people like Obito or Nagato by throwing a kunai in their head before they can react...

Agree on Minato winning by shunshing towards the finish line and winning by teleporting to a thrown kunai.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2015)

agree with rakiri analysis on this 

it isnt like minato shunshin is slow plus if he is moving at 10m/s and can throw a kunai that fast it means that kunai covering twice that distance in 1 second. 

i guess i made this thread because someone thought the likes of hebi sasuke could keep minato at bay. which i found ridiculous


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 16, 2015)

Ei's shunshin is better, but I think Minato's ability to activate jutsu is faster than Ei.  Since I generally believe shunshins shunshin at the same speed, and both Ei and Minato can shunshin across 100 meters, I'd give it to Minato.

If I said Ei's shunshin was superior in speed as well, Minato's wouldn't be too far behind, and Minato can run and throw shuriken.  So shunshin+kunai throw->Hiraishin will beat a strain shunshin depending on distances.


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## ARGUS (Jan 16, 2015)

Lol with only shunshin in perspective: means that Ay comfortably beats him


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 16, 2015)

I'm going to say this one more time to the BD in general.

*If you count interceptions and dynamic entries as speed feats, the entire manga gets stupid.* 

...and it's already stupid enough.

Obviously 6th gate Lee's kunai throw isn't faster than kamui or 8th gate Guy's time space taijutsu.  Just.  No.  Lee could have gone 6 gates and killed Obito and Madara and all the others with a kunai throw, and that's stupid.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @rasen nice post  however
> people might say when minato saved kid kakashi it was thanks to hirashin
> i disagree because when he used hirashin right after rin noticed the ridiculous speed. she failed to point that out the first time. So that indicates to me he saved kakashi with shunshin.
> 
> ...



Like you already said, it was deffo shunshin . The Japanese kanji used to illustrate that interception was the high speed movement symbol. The same symbol Kishi uses for shunshin. And of course Rin indirectly tells the reader that Minato used his space time ninjutsu on that occasion. It takes basic reading comprehension to know whether it was shunshin or hiraishin.

To be fair, it's not that I'm downright saying ay v2 is slower than Minatos base Shunshin. What I am saying however is that Minato has about 2 or 3 shunshin feats that Ay himself has never replicated or come close to displaying to the same degree as Minato. So feat wise, how can I say otherwise if Ay has never displayed a shunshin feat of the calibre minato showed when he saved Kushina or when he saved kakashi. And each time it's always to save someone, not just plunging straight into the oppoenent, Minato actually has the speed to intercept and gather the person he is saving. 

And why would I reply to any of your posts starjackass. You are so anti Minato that its sad. For a character you don't even like, you sure like to pop into any thread with his name just to down rate him. So I don't waste my time with trolls like that. You can barely read as well. You just asked a question that I've already explained in great detail, yet you're still asking. Of course I won't reply you.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 16, 2015)

Dominus said:


> I'm not claiming anything, you are the one who's certain he used Shunshin. If you're so sure prove it. And no, Hiraishin marks don't always have to be shown like here.
> [sp][/sp]


Looks to me that he teleported to sasuke there. Using the chakra link that Minato has, which is connected to Sasuke's kyuubi cloak. Hence why they appeared directly under him. Even Minato could have been the one who used hiraishin there.


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## sabre320 (Jan 16, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> So in your book Minato can launch a kunai faster than Kakashi can activate Kamui on a human body (when Kakashi was just waiting for Gaara to raise the sand wall to cover Obito). As we've seen Kakashi can Kamui a full human body so fast that Mangekyo + Rinnegan Obito, even with full knowledge, couldn't even see it. So basically being Minato's kunai even faster than Kakashi's Kamui warp, how could young Obito react and dodge Minato's kunai by like 10 cm point blank?
> 
> And yeah, Lee can throw kunai faster than 8th Gate Gai can move (in mid air and not at full speed to let the others support him, but whatever). So Lee can oneshot people like Obito or Nagato by throwing a kunai in their head before they can react...
> 
> Agree on Minato winning by shunshing towards the finish line and winning by teleporting to a thrown kunai.



dude whether u admit to gai slowing down dosent matter lee threw a kunai faster then the guodama to intercept them the same guodama needed double kamui to be evaded and barely it happened in the manga be sarcastic all u want it happened on panel...obito used intangibilty to evade the  kunai same intangibilty that evaded juubidara


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## Dominus (Jan 16, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Looks to me that he teleported to sasuke there. Using the chakra link that Minato has, which is connected to Sasuke's kyuubi cloak. Hence why they appeared directly under him. Even Minato could have been the one who used hiraishin there.



Doesn't matter, there are other examples:
[sp][/sp]

Even if there aren't other examples, it doesn't mean he certainly used Hiraishin, it happened off-panel, we don't know where Minato has marks so we can't know whether he used Hiraishin or Shunshin.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 16, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Like you already said, it was deffo shunshin . The Japanese kanji used to illustrate that interception was the high speed movement symbol. The same symbol Kishi uses for shunshin. And of course Rin indirectly tells the reader that Minato used his space time ninjutsu on that occasion. It takes basic reading comprehension to know whether it was shunshin or hiraishin.
> 
> To be fair, it's not that I'm downright saying ay v2 is slower than Minatos base Shunshin. What I am saying however is that Minato has about 2 or 3 shunshin feats that Ay himself has never replicated or come close to displaying to the same degree as Minato. So feat wise, how can I say otherwise if Ay has never displayed a shunshin feat of the calibre minato showed when he saved Kushina or when he saved kakashi. And each time it's always to save someone, not just plunging straight into the oppoenent, Minato actually has the speed to intercept and gather the person he is saving.
> 
> And why would I reply to any of your posts starjackass. You are so anti Minato that its sad. For a character you don't even like, you sure like to pop into any thread with his name just to down rate him. So I don't waste my time with trolls like that. You can barely read as well. You just asked a question that I've already explained in great detail, yet you're still asking. Of course I won't reply you.



Why Minato couldnt shunshin away in his fight with Ei? Maybe because Ei's shunshin is faster than Minato's shunshin? Why Minato couldnt dodge Ei with his shunshin and used his FTG technique to dodge him point blank?


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## StarWanderer (Jan 16, 2015)

*But hey, quess what, nobody will respond to me. I am too good, too amazing and to cool for anybody here by mile. Watch out, boys and girls, The Big Wandering Daddy is here! 
*





And Ei beats Minato.


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## sabre320 (Jan 16, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Doesn't matter, there are other examples:
> [sp][/sp]
> 
> Even if there aren't other examples, it doesn't mean he certainly used Hiraishin, it happened off-panel, we don't know where Minato has marks so we can't know whether he used Hiraishin or Shunshin.



The marker has a range around the marker tobiramas sword here tobirama used ftg in cqc ...

ftg has a very distinct drawing style teleporting in look at the panel you provided none of that was present in minatos case...no markers no kunai no teleporting.....


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2015)

Dominos we have no idea what happened before in the panel you provided 
Tobirama could have thrown a kunai or izuna could have been marked right before 
Either way hirashingiri requires a mark of course 

it's like how raikiri requires the person to have lightning affinity 

Kishi not showing where or how tobirama got the mark close to izuna is the definition of an off panel battle
Btw minato got to and saved kushina with hirashin

Obito clearly said minato marked her 

People please note hirashin is pretty much minato version of raiton no yoroi
Ei is very fast in base as well remember when he got to zetsu

Minato is obviously very fast as well otherwise he wouldn't be able to use hirashin in battle 

I think it goes like this 
Ei amps and minato starts running 
Ei passes minato 
Minato throws a kunai at the finish line
And gets there 1/1000 of a sec before Ei


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## Bonly (Jan 16, 2015)

Minato would prolly win, he can throw a kunai to the finish line while running and then teleport for the win


----------



## Dominus (Jan 16, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> The marker has a range around the marker tobiramas sword here tobirama used ftg in cqc ...
> 
> ftg has a very distinct drawing style teleporting in look at the panel you provided none of that was present in minatos case...no markers no kunai no teleporting.....



I've showed you an instance in which we can't see a mark yet we know he used Hiraishin proving that a mark doesn't always have to be shown. You have literally provided no proof of Minato using Shunshin.



Icegaze said:


> Dominos we have no idea what happened before in the panel you provided
> Tobirama could have thrown a kunai or izuna could have been marked right before
> Either way hirashingiri requires a mark of course
> 
> ...



I'm not sure what that has to do with what I've been discussing with sabre.


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 16, 2015)

Minato's Shunshing is not, by any means, faster than Ei's.

I wonder what feats Minato has to assume he shunshins so fast that he can leave Sharingan's field of vision.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2015)

Dominus said:


> I've showed you an instance in which we can't see a mark yet we know he used Hiraishin proving that a mark doesn't always have to be shown. You have literally provided no proof of Minato using Shunshin.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what that has to do with what I've been discussing with sabre.




you provided a panel with tobirama using hirashin
clearly saying kishi didnt show where the marker was and yet hirashin was used 

did you or did you not say that?

the rest of the post should be obvious


----------



## Dominus (Jan 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> you provided a panel with tobirama using hirashin
> clearly saying kishi didnt show where the marker was and yet hirashin was used
> 
> did you or did you not say that?
> ...



What's your point? That Hiraishin can be used when marks aren't shown? That's the point I was trying to make to sabre who doesn't quite get it.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 16, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Minato's Shunshing is not, by any means, faster than Ei's.
> 
> I wonder what feats Minato has to assume he shunshins so fast that he can leave Sharingan's field of vision.



And nobody cares about the fact Minato dodged Ei with Hiraishin, not with shunshin. And he did it point blank.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2015)

Dominus said:


> What's your point? That Hiraishin can be used when marks aren't shown? That's the point I was trying to make to sabre who doesn't quite get it.



Then we agree on that .


----------



## Arles Celes (Jan 16, 2015)

Weird how Kishi hardly left us to see how fast Minato can be without Hirashin.

But he might be close enough given his reflexes which were so good that they allowed him to react to Raikage's full speed punch at close range and an immediate counterattack.

To react so fast after teleporting and attack before most enemies can notice requires quite impressive body speed.

Anywaaay, I wonder if having fast shunshin mostly comes to how much chakra one got and potentially how good said person is at controlling those speed bursts? Obito got crazy fast after having his chakra capacity greatly increased by Juubi and having his speed praised quite a bit. Minato and Ei are both very fast with the former having enough chakra to use SM and the latter having bijuu levels of chakra according to Karin. Sasuke and Guy also seem to have plenty of chakra. Only chakra monster that was not a speedster was Kisame I think...


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jan 16, 2015)

Minato has teleportation thats why. 

Ay is physically faster than Minato by far.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2015)

Thank you for stating the obvious kazekage
Now who wins a race between the 2 and why 

Off topic Despite kamui I actually think Ei will beat obito in a 100 m race


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jan 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Thank you for stating the obvious kazekage
> Now who wins a race between the 2 and why
> 
> Off topic Despite kamui I actually think Ei will beat obito in a 100 m race



If Minato has teleportation he wins


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2015)

Why wouldn't he have it 
What I am saying is even without a mark at the finish line he would still win by getting a mark at the finish line and appearing there before Ei can because he is the faster of the 2 

Hussain bolt is faster than you he will always win a 100m race between both of you 

That would be the definition of being faster


----------



## Trojan (Jan 16, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Minato's Shunshing is not, by any means, faster than Ei's.
> 
> I wonder what feats Minato has to assume he shunshins so fast that he can leave Sharingan's field of vision.






Hussain said:


> No, when he stopped Kurama.
> See here
> *naruto in SM can form multiple of them*
> Kurama is out of the village
> ...


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 16, 2015)

^

Young Obito is, speed-wise, completely featless.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 16, 2015)

s- strikes once again.


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 16, 2015)

I know Minato's Shunshin is pretty fast. But that is not more impressive than what V2 Ei can achieve. I mean, Ei in V2 can replicate that without much troubles. Even though he might not be as fast as Minato when it comes to hand-speed.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 16, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I know Minato's Shunshin is pretty fast. But that is not more impressive than what V2 Ei can achieve. I mean, Ei in V2 can replicate that without much troubles. Even though he might not be as fast as Minato when it comes to hand-speed.



V2 Ei is well above Minato in body movement speed. Hell, i highly doubt base Minato could beat prime V2 Ei. Because the Ei Minato fought many times is featless and clearly not as good as he became later. 

Plus, even young Ei was faster than Minato in terms of body movement speed. If Minato didnt have Hiraishin, he wouldnt become Fourth Hokage. Because he would have been dead.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> s- strikes once again.



w - with facts.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 16, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I know Minato's Shunshin is pretty fast. But that is not more impressive than what V2 Ei can achieve. I mean, Ei in V2 can replicate that without much troubles. Even though he might not be as fast as Minato when it comes to hand-speed.



Well, honestly Minato's feats are better than A's feats anyway, but yeah, as I said by hype, or what was implied, A's speed should be faster. 



StarWanderer said:


> w - with facts.



>star
>facts
>???
> :rofl

I admit, that was the best joke for this day so far. lol


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Well, honestly Minato's feats are better than A's feats anyway, but yeah, as I said by hype, or what was implied, A's speed should be faster.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, by facts.

By the way, why Minato havent dodge Ei with his Shunshin and needed his FTG to dodge him point blank?


----------



## Trojan (Jan 16, 2015)

> Yep, by facts.



Whatever makes you sleep at night, sweetheart.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 16, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Minato's Shunshing is not, by any means, faster than Ei's.
> 
> I wonder what feats Minato has to assume he shunshins so fast that he can leave Sharingan's field of vision.



Minato shunshined away from an explosion that started in his hand while holding a newborn baby in his other hand.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 16, 2015)

Dominus said:


> What's your point? That Hiraishin can be used when marks aren't shown? That's the point I was trying to make to sabre who doesn't quite get it.



Adding to you, Minato had kunai and marks all around Konoha.  Tobirama put tags everywhere too.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 16, 2015)

Toni had sharing and out didn't seem to help him predict Minato.  Not his shunshins or jumps.  Or he predicted it but it didn't save him anyway.


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 16, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Minato shunshined away from an explosion that started in his hand while holding a newborn baby in his other hand.



Something Ei would be able to do in V2 if he shunshins away at the same time Minato did.

If his Shunshin was as fast as V2 Ei or faster, i doubt the guy would've felt the need to use Hiraishin. Or at the very least, would have destroyed Kid Obito with it, but Obito kept forcing him to use Hiraishin the entire fight.

Also, Deidara did something similar with his own V1. If i am not mistaken, the guy could jump back and use the explosion's shockwave to his advantage.

And even if Deidara's feat is not as fast or hardcore as Minato, the guy is no speedester.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 16, 2015)

Ei could do it too.

I'm saying Minato's was impressive enough to assume it's around Ei's, even if Ei is better.  

I actually think Ei didn't excite Sasuke's eyes when he was in front of him.  He just moved faster than Sasuke could turn his head.  Same as Lee did to Sasuke in the chunin exam.


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 16, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Ei could do it too.
> 
> I'm saying Minato's was impressive enough to assume it's around Ei's, even if Ei is better..



Maybe i underestimate Minato a bit or much. I do agree his Shunshin is quite fast. I just have troubles seeing it near Ei's full speed. But i can be way wrong, though.



> I actually think Ei didn't excite Sasuke's eyes when he was in front of him.  He just moved faster than Sasuke could turn his head.  Same as Lee did to Sasuke in the chunin exam



I always thought he left Sasuke's field of visi?n because he created an after image in front of Sasuke when he moved and attributed Karin's comment to Sasuke's eyes. But that sounds plausible too.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 17, 2015)

Dominus said:


> Doesn't matter, there are other examples:
> [sp][/sp]
> 
> Even if there aren't other examples, it doesn't mean he certainly used Hiraishin, it happened off-panel, we don't know where Minato has marks so we can't know whether he used Hiraishin or Shunshin.


 thats off panel though. The anime showed that he threw a marked kunai before that though. That's what the anime does, it fills in the blanks where it can. But thst scene was deinitely off panel. Databook clearly states that he teleports to the eneimies blind spot with a marking before slashing his enemy.



LostSelf said:


> If his Shunshin was as fast as V2 Ei or faster, i doubt the guy would've felt the need to use Hiraishin. Or at the very least, would have destroyed Kid Obito with it, but Obito kept forcing him to use Hiraishin the entire fight.
> r.



shunshin is not enough to beat obito. it won't work. He possess the mangekyou, empowered with senju dna. V2 ay wouldn't be able to hit that version of obito, he'd track his movements and react with kamui each time.

Like I've already explained "Swiftness that surpasses shunshin". That's the exact quote from the databook. Hirashin surpasses shunshin, Im sure everyone knows this. Hence why minato finds it more useful and prefers to utilise it more, rather than rely on shunshin that is just linear high speed movement. Lets not forget that it isn't minatos style eiter, remember what he said about kakashi running so fast that he couldn't foresee the opponents counter? So why would minato contradict himself and do the same thing. Ay did exactly that to minato, and was unable to see minatos couner because he was moving too fast. Minato is to intelligent to just blindly attack an opponent full speed like that. Using hiraishin creates more element of surprise and leaves more verstility and attack and defence option. Shunshin does not allow that, so of course minato will go with the superior technique.

All I can say is:

Shunshin = D rank
Hiraishin (faster) = S rank


----------



## Kyu (Jan 17, 2015)

> shunshin is not enough to beat obito.



Minato and Ei's shunshin aren't.



> Hirashin surpasses shunshin



...As if they're even remotely similar in how they're used.

_Shunshin no Jutsu_ is high-speed movement enhanced by chakra.

_Hiraishin no Jutsu_ allows a shinobi to teleport from point A to point B *without moving a muscle* to arrive at said destination(obviously through seal formulas).


----------



## Legend777 (Jan 17, 2015)

Minato is the faster of the two . He wins by whatever means necessary.


----------



## Dominus (Jan 17, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Adding to you, Minato had kunai and marks all around Konoha.  Tobirama put tags everywhere too.



Yeah.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> thats off panel though. The anime showed that he threw a marked kunai before that though. That's what the anime does, it fills in the blanks where it can. But thst scene was deinitely off panel. Databook clearly states that he teleports to the eneimies blind spot with a marking before slashing his enemy.



My point was that Hiraishin can be used when marks aren't shown, not sure why you're telling me this.


----------



## Legend777 (Jan 17, 2015)

Dominus said:


> My point was that Hiraishin can be used when marks aren't shown.



Only when its blatantly clear that they are using Hirashin.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 17, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Minato and Ei's shunshin aren't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


??? Is this thread not about Minato and ay? Why is anyone else relevant? The 2 fastest ninja with the best shunshin. Unless you wanna start bringing in those with rikudo enhanced powers that no one cares about. Pls explain the purpose of this comment, because I'm failing to see your point. 




Databook compares the two because they are similar in a way. Did I not just say this. Or do I actually need to post the page as well? Databook compares them, yet you're telling you know better than the people who write this stuff?


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 17, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Adding to you, Minato had kunai and marks all around Konoha.  Tobirama put tags everywhere too.



Um u do realize hirashin has a very distinct drwing style a different kanji and the marker is shown...marks all around konoha he had one on hokage mountain and on his house can you provide these cpuntless markers..


----------



## Dominus (Jan 17, 2015)

Legend777 said:


> Only when its blatantly clear that they are using Hirashin.



It doesn't matter my point still stands, we have no idea what happened because it was off panel.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 17, 2015)

Minato has a hiraishin mark inside Kushina's seal.  It was mentioned earlier.  I always assumed he teleported to that one to save her.  Whether he shunshined afterwards is up for debate.  

Minato also could have hiraishined to a nearby marker, and then shunshined to Kushina from a short distance.  This makes more sense than across Konoha instant shunshin to me.

Marks are sometimes shown when he uses shunshin as well.  Marks are sometimes not shown when hiraishin is used.  

You'd have to show me the unique style for hiraishin, and how not showing it means it's a shunshin when the entire scene happened off panel.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 17, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Something Ei would be able to do in V2 if he shunshins away at the same time Minato did.
> 
> If his Shunshin was as fast as V2 Ei or faster, i doubt the guy would've felt the need to use Hiraishin. Or at the very least, would have destroyed Kid Obito with it, but Obito kept forcing him to use Hiraishin the entire fight.
> 
> ...



Why use an inferior weapon when you have a much superior weapon that is much more efficient and safe aswell..


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 17, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Why use an inferior weapon when you have a much superior weapon that is much more efficient and safe aswell..



I've repeated this like 5 times now, yet apparently this is difficult to understand.

Kakashi possess over 1000 jutsu, yet he only uses Raikiri and Kamui. Hiruzen knows all the jutsu of Konoha, yet he prefers to use the shadow shuriken jutsu. Orochimaru has studied and learned most of the worlds ninjutsu, yet he only fights with snakes.

Why is it so hard to understand that ninja use whichever jutsu they find the most useful or effiecient. You don't resort to an inferior jutsu if you don't need to.


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 17, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> shunshin is not enough to beat obito. it won't work. He possess the mangekyou, empowered with senju dna. V2 ay wouldn't be able to hit that version of obito, he'd track his movements and react with kamui each time.
> 
> Like I've already explained "Swiftness that surpasses shunshin". That's the exact quote from the databook. Hirashin surpasses shunshin, Im sure everyone knows this. Hence why minato finds it more useful and prefers to utilise it more, rather than rely on shunshin that is just linear high speed movement. Lets not forget that it isn't minatos style eiter, remember what he said about kakashi running so fast that he couldn't foresee the opponents counter? So why would minato contradict himself and do the same thing. Ay did exactly that to minato, and was unable to see minatos couner because he was moving too fast. Minato is to intelligent to just blindly attack an opponent full speed like that. Using hiraishin creates more element of surprise and leaves more verstility and attack and defence option. Shunshin does not allow that, so of course minato will go with the superior technique.
> 
> ...



If i understood correctly, you are saying that Minato is faster tan Ei due to Hiraishin? I know that. What i am saying is that Ei's Shunshin is faster than Minato's. Not Hiraishin.


sabre320 said:


> Why use an inferior weapon when you have a much superior weapon that is much more efficient and safe aswell..



Because Minato tried to engage Obito in close quarters and was chained and forced to teleport. Unless we say Obito can keep up wth V2 speeds, Minato's physical speed should not be fast enough to rival Ei's. I would take that with Rinnegan Obito, who is an adult and way more seasoned. But the kid one... not that much.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 17, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> If i understood correctly, you are saying that Minato is faster tan Ei due to Hiraishin? I know that. What i am saying is that Ei's Shunshin is faster than Minato's. Not Hiraishin.
> 
> 
> Because Minato tried to engage Obito in close quarters and was chained and forced to teleport. Unless we say Obito can keep up wth V2 speeds, Minato's physical speed should not be fast enough to rival Ei's. I would take that with Rinnegan Obito, who is an adult and way more seasoned. But the kid one... not that much.



no i said minatos shunshin is faster than v2 ays feat wise. At the very least they are on par. What I'm saying is hirashin far surpasses shunshin to the point where instead of just being able to evade someone (shunshin), you can evade and simultaneously counter at the same time (hirashin). Ay never once said minato was the fastest man alive due to hirashin, Ay plain and simple stated that Minato was the fastest. Ay also did not say Tobi/Madara/Obito was the fastest, despite seeing obitos space time ninjutsu, and even Obito reacting to Ays shunshin with kamui. Therefore that tells us it isn't just space time ninjutsu that makes minato faster than Ay. Otherwise Ay would have said Obito was faster than him as well, instead Ay said no ninja was faster than him now that minato had died.

And what kamui feat has older obito shown that is different from the kid version? They use kamui exactly the same. The speed of it is also exactly the same. Obito cannot "keep up with v2 speed", he can only react to v2's speed. Even Sasuke activated his enton shield faster than v2 ay could strike him. So Obito can of course activate his kamui before v2 ay can hit him. Even Juubi Madara could not strike obito because he activates kamui instantly.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 17, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Minato has a hiraishin mark inside Kushina's seal.  It was mentioned earlier.  I always assumed he teleported to that one to save her.  Whether he shunshined afterwards is up for debate.
> 
> Minato also could have hiraishined to a nearby marker, and then shunshined to Kushina from a short distance.  This makes more sense than across Konoha instant shunshin to me.
> 
> ...



Lets say he teleported to a marker why wasnt it shown??? if he had teleported to kushina to kushina he would have teleported next to her....marks are shown when he shunshins? when did this happen they are shown when he is putting markers or throwing kunai with shunshin .... everytime ftg is used it is distinctly shown with a specific sound effect and drawing style putting emphasis on it why wast it shown?? saying it dosent make sense because of ur opinion is well not very objective...

everytime ftg is used there is a distinct soundeffect and a drawing pattern showing lines materializing on the body..

one of the largest Katons
one of the largest Katons
one of the largest Katons
one of the largest Katons

everytime ftg is used its made blatantly clear ...


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2015)

Minato has a mark on kushina obito clearly mentioned it panels before Minato saves her

Saving kushina was exclusively hirashin

I am not saying Minato shunshin is faster than Ei clearly it isn't Ei shushin is amped with raiton cloak 

I am howeve saying that Minato would always win a race because he can get his marker to a destination and teleport there before Ei gets to that destination


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Minato has a mark on kushina obito clearly mentioned it panels before Minato saves her
> 
> Saving kushina was exclusively hirashin
> 
> ...



I am not concerned with whether his shunshin is comparable to eis or not what irks me is when people deny his shunshin feats because they cant see it that way or in their opinion ect...


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 17, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> If i understood correctly, you are saying that Minato is faster tan Ei due to Hiraishin? I know that. What i am saying is that Ei's Shunshin is faster than Minato's. Not Hiraishin.
> 
> 
> Because Minato tried to engage Obito in close quarters and was chained and forced to teleport. Unless we say Obito can keep up wth V2 speeds, Minato's physical speed should not be fast enough to rival Ei's. I would take that with Rinnegan Obito, who is an adult and way more seasoned. But the kid one... not that much.



ahan.. that is a poor excuse for a argument there mate  minato was certainly capable of landing attacks with his physical speed with his shunshin he saved naruto before obito could strike from point blank......minato did not have knowledge on kamui there and obito counted on it he phased through and capitalized same would have happened to ei...minato left the kunai in the air in their first clash teleported to the tree turned around teleported around while the kunai was midair got into striking position and would have landed the strike had it not been for bee....ei didnt even move an inch and couldnt comprehend what was happening he needed to have the physical reactions and speed to land that strike and do the above..kid obito has shown the same speed feats he was hanging with minato a younger minato was trolling ei and needed to be saved by bee...this same kid obito put a perfect jinchuriki and kage in genjutsu and defeated him...


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 17, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> no i said minatos shunshin is faster than v2 ays feat wise. At the very least they are on par. What I'm saying is hirashin far surpasses shunshin to the point where instead of just being able to evade someone (shunshin), you can evade and simultaneously counter at the same time (hirashin). Ay never once said minato was the fastest man alive due to hirashin, Ay plain and simple stated that Minato was the fastest. Ay also did not say Tobi/Madara/Obito was the fastest, despite seeing obitos space time ninjutsu, and even Obito reacting to Ays shunshin with kamui. Therefore that tells us it isn't just space time ninjutsu that makes minato faster than Ay. Otherwise Ay would have said Obito was faster than him as well, instead Ay said no ninja was faster than him now that minato had died.



What we saw that Ei saw was Minato using Hiraishin. Minato never, as much as we know, used Shunshin against Ei. Minato has more feats than Ei, but not more impressive. Ei leaves after images with movement speed that leaves Sharingan's precog field of visi?n.



> And what kamui feat has older obito shown that is different from the kid version? They use kamui exactly the same. The speed of it is also exactly the same. Obito cannot "keep up with v2 speed", he can only react to v2's speed. Even Sasuke activated his enton shield faster than v2 ay could
> strike him. So Obito can of course activate his kamui before v2 ay can hit him. Even Juubi Madara could not strike obito because he activates kamui instantly.



I actually think Obito improved with all of his Kamui mastery and physical skills. This is something natural that happens to everybody. However, i am not talking about Kamui's speed. I am talking about Kid Obito reacting to Minato's supposed V2 Ei's superior speed. We actually don't even know if Ei had V2 by that time. Sasuke activated his Amaterasu shield before Ei approached him. Ei clearly stops before landing the strike.



sabre320 said:


> ahan.. that is a poor excuse for a argument there mate  minato was certainly capable of landing attacks with his physical speed with his shunshin he saved naruto before obito could strike from point blank......minato did not have knowledge on kamui there and obito counted on it he phased through and capitalized same would have happened to ei...minato left the kunai in the air in their first clash teleported to the tree turned around teleported around while the kunai was midair got into striking position and would have landed the strike had it not been for bee....ei didnt even move an inch and couldnt comprehend what was happening he needed to have the physical reactions and speed to land that strike and do the above..kid obito has shown the same speed feats he was hanging with minato a younger minato was trolling ei and needed to be saved by bee...this same kid obito put a perfect jinchuriki and kage in genjutsu and defeated him...



No, he wasn't. If he was, he would've been able to hit Obito with it. But he couldn't. He had knowledge . The man faced Obito before and he saw Obito bypassing his attack and trying to absorb him. In fact, Minato thought Obito was Uchiha Madara himself.

Everything you are listing with Ei was done with Hiraishin, so i don't know what this has to do with Shunshin. It proves Minato has fast handspeed, incredibly fast, too. But that doesn't include full body speed. Gai also has the fastest (excluding Juubi Jins and beyond) handspeed, and he is not as fast as V2 Ei. And using genjutsu on somebody has nothing to do with speed at all either.

It's impossible for Obito to not have improved. It would be crazy to think that he kept the same abilities's mastery all those years.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 17, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> What we saw that Ei saw was Minato using Hiraishin. Minato never, as much as we know, used Shunshin against Ei. Minato has more feats than Ei, but not more impressive. Ei leaves after images with movement speed that leaves Sharingan's precog field of visi?n.


I don't think you understand what I am saying.

Who is talking about minato using shunshin against ay? I never said that, I already know minato didn't use shushin against ay. He only used hiraishin...why? Because hirashin surpasses all forms of shunshin, whether it is regular shunshin or lightning enhanced shunshin. Hence why Minato would resort to hiraishin.

So what are these more impressive feats that ay has then? WHat after images. If you are leaving after images, that means your speed is at least traceable. Minato disappears and reappears whenever he uses shunshin, that you don't even see his movement, to the point where readers can't tell if he used shunshin or hirashin. Show me these impressive Ay feats, show me a feat of Ay using shunshin across a further distance than what minato has crossed. Ays shunshin are always short range, he's doesn't have a single feat that even comes close to the distances minato has covered with the blink of an eye.


> I actually think Obito improved with all of his Kamui mastery and physical skills. This is something natural that happens to everybody. However, i am not talking about Kamui's speed. I am talking about Kid Obito reacting to Minato's supposed V2 Ei's superior speed. We actually don't even know if Ei had V2 by that time. Sasuke activated his Amaterasu shield before Ei approached him. Ei clearly stops before landing the strike.



We know ay had v2 when he faced minato because he called it his full speed punch. And then he told naruto that he was only the 2nd person to ever evade his full speed. And we see ays hair flying up all over the place when he went v2 against minato. This is common knowledge, come on, everyone knows this. Ay got behind Sasuke, and was only iches away from sasuke. It was only then that sasuke activated the enton shield, meaning he activated his jutsu faster than v2 ay.That is why Ay stopped. Obito would do the same thing, because kamui is even faster than amaterasu, and obito is a more experienced MS user.

You think? That doesn't tell me nothing. Every feat that kid obito dispalyed with kamui is exactly the same as what his older counterpart displayed. Only new things are his kamui collaboration techniques, like Bafuku Ranbo and kamui shuriken. But in terms of usage, nothing has changed. Minato was the fastest and Obito reacted to him. Ay is the second fastest, obito also reacted to him. kcm and bm naruto was also reacted to multiple times obito.


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## Kyu (Jan 17, 2015)

> ??? Is this thread not about Minato and ay? Why is anyone else relevant? The 2 fastest ninja with the best shunshin.





> shunshin is not enough to beat obito



A rather broad statement wouldn't you say?

and you go into further detail on why you think _the jutsu itself_ is inferior.

Next time specify.



> Unless you wanna start bringing in those with rikudo enhanced powers that no one cares about.



BSM/BM Narudo would fuck his dad(living) up in a fight. 

You don't need rikudou chakra to beat a hiraishin user in a battle of speed.



> Databook compares the two because they are similar in a way. Did I not just say this. Or do I actually need to post the page as well? Databook compares them, yet you're telling you know better than the people who write this stuff?



If the databook is telling us FTG & Shunshin are two peas in a pod in terms of how they operate...then yeah it's full of shit.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 17, 2015)

@Rasen porting through space/time is very different than using chakra to move faster. Sure your using "high speed movement" to get to point A to point B but the means are very different. 

As for the thread topic minato taps A before the former starts to run and teleport in front of A when he gets near the finish line he wins.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2015)

:rofl

that was funny for some reason. 

Kyu

zip it.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 17, 2015)

Kyu said:


> A rather broad statement wouldn't you say?
> 
> and you go into further detail on why you think _the jutsu itself_ is inferior.
> 
> ...



and now you're talking about bsm naruto vs minato. When I was talking about obitos kamui speed and ability. What has minatos hiraishin vs bsm got to do with obitos kamui vs ay?  I said rikudo to beat obitos kamui with shunshin, yet you're talking to me about hiraishin. No offence but did you read my post?

not to mention minato created that seal on narutos stomach, and transmitted his chakra into it. Minato would teleport straight to it and stab naruto or just rip the nintails right out.

Yep, shunshin and ftg are similar, the db compares them, the author compares them. Some random forum user saying it's crap means nothing, when those with much greater knowledge of the manga (the creators) than you say otherwise.

and i don't need to specify anything, I've been perfectly clear, yet it's apparent that you can't read.



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> @Rasen porting through space/time is very different than using chakra to move faster. Sure your using "high speed movement" to get to point A to point B but the means are very different.
> 
> As for the thread topic minato taps A before the former starts to run and teleport in front of A when he gets near the finish line he wins.



They're very different, yet they're similar. That's all Im trying to say. 

Even in the manga, lots of people have called it shunshin no jutsu, or described it as shunshin no jutsu. Because of the way they both operate. High speed movement.

Of course they are very different. That doesn't mean they don't share similarities. Which would you rather use in battle... Shunshin or Hiraishin? If you were facing an opponent just as fast as you. It's a question that only has 1 simple right answer. With shunshin, Naruto only managed to evade Ay once, he could neither counter him nor get past him. With hirasihin you can do both those things. So why people are questioning why minato didn't use shunshin against Ay is a very stupid question.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2015)

@RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki

I don't think that tone is Necessary honestly. 
Even though Kyu always underestimate Minato for some reasons or the others.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 17, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> They're very different, yet they're similar. That's all Im trying to say.


I agree they are similar in the fact they get you to place to place quickly



> Even in the manga, lots of people have called it shunshin no jutsu, or described it as shunshin no jutsu. Because of the way they both operate. High speed movement.


Yeah i agree with this too but it would still not be right to group shunshin along with hiraishin due to the different mechanics the two work on. I think that is what kyu meant by them not being two peas in the same pod.



> Which would you rather use in battle... Shunshin or Hiraishin? If you were facing an opponent just as fast as you. It's a question that only has 1 simple right answer.


I'd rather use hiraishin.



> With shunshin, Naruto only managed to evade Ay once, he could neither counter him nor get past him. With hirasihin you can do both those things. So why people are questioning why minato didn't use shunshin against Ay is a very stupid question.


I'm sure they agree that hiraishin is more efficient in a speed battle than shunshin when it comes to which is faster and overall more effective. 

I think what people like lostself was saying is that minato *couldn't* use shunshin to get away from A and had to use FTG whether it was faster, smarter etc.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 17, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> I agree they are similar in the fact they get you to place to place quickly


glad you agree




> Yeah i agree with this too but it would still not be right to group shunshin along with hiraishin due to the different mechanics the two work on. I think that is what kyu meant by them not being two peas in the same pod.


I get they aren't the same, I get they have entirely different mechanics. But at the end of the day, they're both similar, in terms of appearance and use. In the manga, others even describe it as a form/art of shunshin. So if the manga and DB both state these, I don't see the need to dispute it.




> I'd rather use hiraishin.


Me too



> I'm sure they agree that hiraishin is more efficient in a speed battle than shunshin when it comes to which is faster and overall more effective.


I hope so, that's what I've been trying to explain



> I think what people like lostself was saying is that minato *couldn't* use shunshin to get away from A and had to use FTG whether it was faster, smarter etc.


And this is where I disagree. I say minato can use shunshin to get away. But Minato didn't want to get away, he wanted to counter his oppoenent. And therefore aimed to counter at the last minute. See how minato flicked his kunai above ay, teleported away and then back, caught the kunai, and then slashed at Ay.That was about 5 actions all performed within a second (yet minato can't perform 1 shunshin action to get away). See how fast that is? You can't do that kind of stuff with shunshin. Minato entered a confrontation, he wanted to defeat his oppoenent, he's not gonna use a technique that will only get him away from his opponents attack, when he has another technique that allows him to defeat the oppoenent in 1 move.

Not to mention minato had no intention of using shunshin. Once minato reached into his ninja pouch and threw out all his kunai. That tells us that from the very start, he had already made up his mind and was completely focused on only using Hiraishin. I mean, there were like 2 dozen kunai on the battlefieild, why shunshin when you can instantly move to anyone of them, without actually moving a muscle.


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## Kyu (Jan 17, 2015)

OT: Finish line marked: Minato 

No marking or tags: Ei 



> and now you're talking about bsm naruto vs minato. When I was talking about obitos kamui speed and ability. What has minatos hiraishin vs bsm got to do with obitos kamui vs ay? I said rikudo to beat obitos kamui with shunshin, yet you're talking to me about hiraishin. No offence but did you read my post?



I hope you aren't actually this dense.


You implied a shunshin from a rikudo is required to best a shinobi wielding FTG.

I merely presented an example in BSM/BM showing that clearly isn't the case.



> not to mention minato created that seal on narutos stomach, and transmitted his chakra into it. Minato would teleport straight to it and stab naruto or just rip the nintails right out.



Minato isn't penetrating his kid's biju shroud with a kunai. 

and Nardo altered his seal before he faced Kurama, sooo no dice.

Anywhosits we're somewhat off topic. Let's not...



> Yep, shunshin and ftg are similar, the db compares them, the author compares them. Some random forum user saying it's crap means nothing, when those with much greater knowledge of the manga (the creators) than you say otherwise.



I prefer relying on my own common sense rather than blindly agreeing with an author who believes teleportation is "similar" to moving fast in any aspect other than sharing the purpose of arriving somewhere asap.



> and i don't need to specify anything, I've been perfectly clear, yet it's apparent that you can't read.



If telling yourself that makes you feel better...God bless ya.




> Even though Kyu always underestimate Minato for some reasons or the others.



It probably appears that way to you because I choose not to gobble on his yellow nuts 24/7.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2015)

Kyu, do you know about those little things? 




*Spoiler*: __ 









I am sure a Kunai wouldn't have effected full Kurama as well. But those are nasty seals, wouldn't you agree?


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## Kyu (Jan 17, 2015)

The seal Minato set on the giant gates within Nardo's subconscious went bye-bye once Kurama became a dependable ally.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2015)

Yeah, it was obviously so hard for Minato to get Kurama out of himself even though he has the same seal. I.E being exactly like his child with KCM. 

That, in addition to the fact a sealing jutsu master can put some other seals if he wants. Just like how Oro's seal in top of Minato's seal missed up Naruto's chakra badly. 

It's not even only about sealing jutsus. Minato has barriers jutsus as well. S/T barrier, the barrier he did with the Hokages, the barrier he wanted to use 


Pretty sure he did not learn all that shit, and was dealing with a perfect Jin (B) with a back up of Kage to be completely helpless. lol 

Kushina's seal is different than her child, yet he could still suppress it.


We were told that he is a a sealing master. I take his hype in consideration, rather than
"If I don't see it, it does not exist" 

oh well, nvm though we are way off-topic. :rofl
I still love you though.


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## Kyu (Jan 17, 2015)

> I still love you though






*Spoiler*: __


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 17, 2015)

Kyu said:


> OT: Finish line marked: Minato
> 
> No marking or tags: Ei
> 
> ...


you're the one that is dense, because not only was i just using rikudo enhancement as an example. I also didn't mention hiraishin, i was talking about kamui. This is the third time now I'm telling you that i was talking about obitos kamui activatation speed, yet you're still going on about hiraishin. I never once said anything about shunshin vs ftg. So stop bringing it up already.

rely on your own common sense then. The author regards teleportation as speed, because that's how he wanted it. Yet you think you know better lol. Ok. good for you. I'll stick with what the author said about HIS manga, not your manga.


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## Kyu (Jan 17, 2015)

Made a typo and rolled with it. shit happens when you bringing up FTG nonstop.

Same shit applies regardless. Kamui/Hiraishin is only as good as its user.

A fast enough Shunshin will fuck Obito over if he fails to react.



> rely on your own common sense then. The author regards teleportation as speed, because that's how he wanted it. Yet you think you know better lol. Ok. good for you. I'll stick with what the author said about HIS manga, not your manga.



Yes because Kishi hasn't ever said anything off the wall or flat out inaccurate about his own verse.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2015)

> A fast enough Shunshin will fuck Obito over if he fails to react.



BM Naruto, Gate Gai, B, and Kakashi. None of them were able to land a hit on Obito without Kakashi's Kamui.


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## Kyu (Jan 17, 2015)

A half-baked Senjutsuless BM shunshin intercepted him before kamui could activate.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2015)

He was not hit though. Even JJ SM Madara couldn't hit him either. 
This was Sasuke's clash with Kakashi.
Link removed


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2015)

I don't see how does that effect his Kamui. 
just like how Minato having Kurama did not effect his FTG either. Because they are S/T jutsus. 

Needless to say, he just got the Bijuus and GM pulled out of him, he was barely able to even breath.


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## Kyu (Jan 17, 2015)

> I don't see how does that effect his Kamui



Boosts physical attributes as well as a dojutsu's visual perception. We've seen this when Naruto and Sauce caused miniature shockwaves by clashing forearms. Then there's eveything Obito's amped eyes accomplished against rikudo lvl opponents.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2015)

Kamui is not physical though. 



> eveything Obito's amped eyes accomplished against rikudo lvl opponents.


and still Minato's level in FTG is what soloed it. 
ain't that impressive.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 18, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Kamui is not physical though.
> 
> 
> and still Minato's level in FTG is what soloed it.
> ain't that impressive.



It accomplished that only with others help and with Rikudou chakra. Plus, Obito dodged Juubidara only due to tailes chakra and sage chakra he absorbed.

And adult Obito's reaction speed and reflexes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> young Obito's reaction speed and reflexes.


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## Icegaze (Jan 18, 2015)

Who wins a race between Minato and Ei


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## sabre320 (Jan 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Who wins a race between Minato and Ei



minato he has better reactions so will initiate faster all he needs to do is throw a kunai while starting with shunshin then he teleports to the finishline


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## Icegaze (Jan 18, 2015)

Glad we agree on that 
Let's stay on topic 

I think Minato can throw his kunai faster than he can shunshin 
The combination of both should at the very least equal Ei V2 speed


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Glad we agree on that
> Let's stay on topic
> 
> I think Minato can throw his kunai faster than he can shunshin
> The combination of both should at the very least equal Ei V2 speed



Why would a combination of both he needed? An average person in real life can run 100m in 20. Huge emphasis on average, it can be done way shorter than that. The best Olympic runners do that distance in less than 10 seconds. Now these are ninja we're talking about, they are much faster than Olympic runners in base speed. Using shunshin will take you to the finish line within a second or 2 minimum from 100m.


This feat right here is close to 100m:


It only took a second. And it wasn't even a straight route, Minato had to go upwards, making more difficult. Using shunshin in a straight line from 100m is something Minato doesn't need FTG for to beat A. Not to mention someone said they'd show me a feat of Ay crossing a distance this large within the same space of time, I'm still waiting for that.


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> It accomplished that only with others help and with Rikudou chakra. Plus, Obito dodged Juubidara only due to tailes chakra and sage chakra he absorbed.
> 
> And adult Obito's reaction speed and reflexes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> young Obito's reaction speed and reflexes.



Whatever makes you happy. 



Icegaze said:


> Glad we agree on that
> Let's stay on topic
> 
> I think Minato can throw his kunai faster than he can shunshin
> The combination of both should at the very least equal Ei V2 speed



Minato's strikes is faster than A's shunshin, and Kakashi's Kamui.


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## Icegaze (Jan 18, 2015)

When Ei went for naruto full speed that was a distance well over 100m and it was impressive 
I firmly disagree that Minato shunshin is surpasses Ei max shushin . 

However what I do believe is Minato can attack a random person quicker than A can from a 100m distance or more or less 

Hence why Ei said Minato is faster . But to claim that Ei max shunshin is slower than Minato is a bad joke 
When base Ei is just as fast as Minato already


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## sabre320 (Jan 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> When Ei went for naruto full speed that was a distance well over 100m and it was impressive
> I firmly disagree that Minato shunshin is surpasses Ei max shushin .
> 
> However what I do believe is Minato can attack a random person quicker than A can from a 100m distance or more or less
> ...



base ei as fast as minato...... v1 ei was being intercepted by suigetsu minatos shunshin was so fast he saved naruto before ms obito could strike


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## Sadgoob (Jan 18, 2015)

Every time I see this thread, I think of this:

[youtube]g37HT4-EtzE[/youtube]


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## Icegaze (Jan 18, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> base ei as fast as minato...... v1 ei was being intercepted by suigetsu minatos shunshin was so fast he saved naruto before ms obito could strike



I don't see how that implies suigetsu can't react to Minato shushin. Also note Minato had already held naruto it's entirely possible he had already marked him . 

V1 Ei wasn't compared to Minato . Ei reaction and speed was then C said when Ei boosts with raiton shroud that it's soo fast sharingan can't follow that's all 

Ei then corrected the previously implied equality between their speeds and said Minato was the faster of the 2

And yes Ei is obviously taking into account hirashin


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> When Ei went for naruto full speed that was a distance well over 100m and it was impressive
> I firmly disagree that Minato shunshin is surpasses Ei max shushin .
> 
> However what I do believe is Minato can attack a random person quicker than A can from a 100m distance or more or less
> ...



No, saying base A is just as fast as minato  is a bad joke. Show me a single feat of base A displaying super speed.

The author, manga and databook calls minato the fastest ninja. The latest databook says: Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed, the honour of that valour fascinates even the elites of other villages.

That's all I need to know that minato is faster than A. Space time ninjutsu doesn't make you the fastest ninja, otherwise Obito would be the fastest ninja, since he not only reacted to A's speed, but kcm/bm Naruto as well.  How can kishi call minato the fastest, and A admit that Minato is faster. Yet in a Race Minato would lose, that contradicts the entire thing.

Dude, what do you use to measure 100m? A ruler. I suggest you go read that chapter carefully. And analyse the scans again. I've even highlighted the distance apart they were standing right here:

They're standing no more that 20 yards apart, the distance between them is incredibly short.

Then Naruto runs down to the wall, which isn't far away from him at all. Here is a clear picture of how far naruto and ay moved from where they were standing. And remember that naruto was standing right in front of Tsunade, so here you can tell exactly how far they moved:


Does that look like 100m to you . More like less than half of 100m. Looks less than 40m away. Again, A has zero feats of any long range shunshin. Meanwhile Minato has more than one. So how is this up for debate, Minato has better feats, yet there is still doubt, what is there to doubt?

The fastest ninja of his time (minato), isn't going to have inferior shunshin to the 2nd fastest man. That is illogical and makes absolutely no sense.  I haven't even mentioned the speed feat minato pulled when he was standing on his hokage face, and then next panel he was above the 9 tails. That was well over 100m. Again, Ay has no feat that compares. But I'll still wait for that A feat that no one can provide.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I don't see how that implies suigetsu can't react to Minato shushin. Also note Minato had already held naruto it's entirely possible he had already marked him .
> 
> V1 Ei wasn't compared to Minato . Ei reaction and speed was then C said when Ei boosts with raiton shroud that it's soo fast sharingan can't follow that's all
> 
> ...



Scan of Minato holding Naruto before Obito did. You know it doesn't exist right.


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## Icegaze (Jan 18, 2015)

Oh yh it doesn't exist
Obito held naruto before minato ever did 
Minato such a bad dad 

minato is the fastest not doubting it. I however firmly believe that takes into account hirashin which Ei was aware of 
Obito is not faster than Ei at all 

In a battle sense Ei will always get to the enemy before obito any day anytime 
That's why obito isn't faster despite having an S/T jutsu

Minato Is the fastest due to hirashin same way Ei is the second fastest due to raiton cloak

As for how minato got to kyuuvbi it's very simple 
FCD summons gamabunta on top of kyuubi and minato can hirashin to anytbinf linked to his chakra 
Eg: gamabunta his summon


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Oh yh it doesn't exist
> Obito held naruto before minato ever did
> Minato such a bad dad
> 
> ...


Joke all you want, your statement was still incorrect. Was pure shunshin that saved Naruto.

Yes it takes into account hiraishin, I can't deny that. My point is A still doesn't have a single feat that rivals Minato's longest distance shunshin feat.

Obitos space time ninjutsu is way way fast. He saved sasuke from jinton in a flash:
near
Karin who is one of the best sensors in the manga, didn't even sense obito come in, he moved so fast that karin thought sasukes chakra just disappeared:
near

Obito casually reacting to A's speed with his space time ninjutsu:
near

Obito reacting to kcm Narutos speed, who is faster than v2 Ay. Obit actually teleports faster than kcm naruto can move:
near

Obitos teleportation is so fast, that he even naruto cannot sense and detect him fast enough, If not for kakashis warning, he would've gotten naruto. And Naruto has the abilty to sense evil intent and malice.:
near

Bunta isn't linked to minatos chakra at all. Minato uses his chakra to summon bunta yes. But after that, there is no link between them. Minato summoned bunta above kurama, but minato still needed to arrive on top of bunta. What you've just said is impossible. A persons chakra does not reside within their summoning.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Oh yh it doesn't exist
> Obito held naruto before minato ever did
> Minato such a bad dad
> 
> ...



Obito's reaction speed is much better than that of Ei.

And V2 Ei's Shunshin was fast enough to dodge Amaterasu. That feat is very well above anything Minato has shown with Shunshin. And Minato had to use Hiraishin in order to fight Ei.

Plus, lets not forget that young Ei is much slower than adult Ei.

V2 Ei takes this with not much of a problem. Minato cant through Kunai with speed faster than that of Raikage's top speed.


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## sabre320 (Jan 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I don't see how that implies suigetsu can't react to Minato shushin. Also note Minato had already held naruto it's entirely possible he had already marked him .
> 
> V1 Ei wasn't compared to Minato . Ei reaction and speed was then C said when Ei boosts with raiton shroud that it's soo fast sharingan can't follow that's all
> 
> ...



Cs statement was obviously biased mate you really think minato had reactions equal to base ei?

ms sasuke was outmatching v1 ei in cqc...

If ei corrected the statement and implied inferiority how can you claim eis base speed is as fast as minatos shunshin is beyond me..and yes ei took hirashin into account but you have any proof he was taking solely hirashin into account?

How much more blatant does kishi have to make a panel to show its shunshin? if he used ftg he would have had to teleport next to naruto to catch him...and naruto was in the air  so minato wouldnt be able to run to the wall in the air...no markers on the wall his momentum shown by him landing on the wall my god i swear to god people are gonna question minato walking two feet next time and say nope he used ftg there we don't now if he had markers planted or not...no wait it happened off panel

naruto was just born for godsake right that moment you want him to put a mark on him:/

Ice comeon man ur better then this


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## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Joke all you want, your statement was still incorrect. Was pure shunshin that saved Naruto.
> 
> Yes it takes into account hiraishin, I can't deny that. My point is A still doesn't have a single feat that rivals Minato's longest distance shunshin feat.
> 
> ...



 
the summoner chakra is linked to the summon and based on the amount summoned the summon can stay in the battle field for a certain amount of time 
this is well known 

minato chakra is very much linked to gamabunta. and gamabunta chakra linked to his. ma and pa coudl summon naruto and naruto could summon them for this very reason. feel free to read up on summons. This is why minato could strip kyuubi off obito. their chakra's were linked minato undid that link 

their chakras were linked before obito genjutsu kyuubi btw. the genjutus was simply to control it. how else can they summon monsters if there isnt any chakra link???

again very slowly, a target 100 m away would require obito to kamui twice just to get to them. 
from his point A to them at point B. Ei can max shushin and get to the target well before that. 

that has nothing to do with obito being able to phase out to avoid Ei.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 15, 2015)

So it looks like he Databook puts Raiages Lightning chakra mode on equal terms with Minatos speed.


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## Icegaze (Feb 15, 2015)

Do provide a link 
But I would agree


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Do provide a link
> But I would agree



I pm a translator and asked him personally. So no link per se, however I think he's working on the full translation.

But here's what he wrote for the most important part:

?尾獣チャクラモードのナルトにも追いつけ、?黄色い閃光?にも劣らない神速を誇る。?
A god-like speed that also catches up with Naruto in Tailed?Beast chakra mode, and even praised to be as fast as the ?Yellow Flash?.


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2015)

Thanks rasen
Has the DB4 been fully translated btw
Is there a link on NF?

On a separate note 
If obito and Ei had to race
Say the finish line was a straight distance 1km away who would win?
People would say obito but I would say Ei 
Seeing the distance the likes of killer bee have crossed in a single panel 

Leads me to believe 1000m isn't much to most ninja 
Kishi had Ei say he was the fastest alive I think that took into account obito as well . 

If a target is at a certain distance away Ei should always get to the target before obito 
And Minato wokld get there before both of them


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> I pm a translator and asked him personally. So no link per se, however I think he's working on the full translation.
> 
> But here's what he wrote for the most important part:
> 
> ...



 So KCM Naruto is as fast as instantaneous teleportation?


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## Empathy (Feb 16, 2015)

Yes, he is.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Yes, he is.



 Is this why Tobirama was needed for BM Naruto and BM Minato to land a Rasengan on Juubito? Is this why Tobirama could suddenly sneak up behind Madara with FTG while no one else could?

 That doesn't make sense and you know it. No one has reached physical speed that matches instantaneous teleportation. If they did, Sasuke wouldn't need to exhaust his Rinnegan for teleportation when he can just shunshin instead.


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2015)

Super speed and instant speed would be comparable depending on the distance they are travelling 
Eg: at 5m Ei and Minato in a straight line would get the drop on their target at the same time 
Increase said distance however and the difference between the 2 would become apparent 
So yes for a slight instant EI and KCM naruto do rival teleportation


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## sabre320 (Feb 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So KCM Naruto is as fast as instantaneous teleportation?



ofcourse not its most probably talking about physical speed because ftg is far ahead of shunshin from the likes of kcm naruto and such


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## sabre320 (Feb 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Super speed and instant speed would be comparable depending on the distance they are travelling
> Eg: at 5m Ei and Minato in a straight line would get the drop on their target at the same time
> Increase said distance however and the difference between the 2 would become apparent
> So yes for a slight instant EI and KCM naruto do rival teleportation



even at 5 meters minato will arrive faster as he showed better reflexes and activating ftg is a mental process basically compared to the latter..


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2015)

Yes Minato would get there first however its about perception
If a target was 5m away from both 
He wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the 2 speeds 
At 5 m Ei would appear to be teleporting . 

His movement from A to B is so fast you don't see much of it 
Hence Minato failing to see him running at him in a straight line. The panel we have all seen shows Minato couldn't even see Ei tI'll Ei got in his face 

Short distance super speed and teleportation can't tell them appart 

Naruto uses speed yet he got the drop on kaguya . Sasuke teleports yet coildnt get the drop on her


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## sabre320 (Feb 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Yes Minato would get there first however its about perception
> If a target was 5m away from both
> He wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the 2 speeds
> At 5 m Ei would appear to be teleporting .
> ...



ofcourse the party percieving the speed and their level is also important and naruto was better because  he also has better reactions thus can capitalise and utilize his speed and regarding minato and ei i think minato was indeed a bit surprised by eis speed but feigned weakness to capitalise the bait trap with him flicking the kunai he was capable of flicking his kunai teleorting to the kunai turned around located raikage teleported back and would have struck ei before ei even realized thats impossible if someone cant track this level of speed and also considering he easily reacted to the same speed while turned around


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So KCM Naruto is as fast as instantaneous teleportation?



They aren't talking about teleprtation.

Don't you get it? It's saying Minatos speed without teleportation is as fast as raikage. 

Nothin is faster than instant. One of the previous databooks says that Shunshin is not comparable to the speed of Hirashin. 

KCM Naruto posseses shunshin  of the same calibre as his dad. If we take FTG into consideration, then there is no comparison, minato stomps Naruto in speed. People need to understand that the yellow flash is more than just instant teleportaion.



Icegaze said:


> Thanks rasen
> Has the DB4 been fully translated btw
> Is there a link on NF?
> 
> ...


Still a lot of the databook hasn't been translated yet. But this is what has been done so far:

 - Characters

 - Jutsu

 - Miscellanea


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2015)

He mentally reacted to it of course he did
But it's not like minato can go about physically avoiding Ei punch 
Yes it's all about the level of the perceiver
However kishi wants us to know Ei is very close second to minato in speed 
There isn't some huge gap 

Like minato is probably a 1/1000th of a second faster than Ei 
Also minato was able to get behind Ei because of the particularity behind minato Jutsu and the fact that Ei rushed in blind ( tunnel vision )

@rasen minato shunshin is far from faster than Ei 
Do note the second he heard Ei was super fast his instant reaction was to set up hirashin
Bee also has a flash back of minato surrounded by loads of kunai 

quite obviously  if his physical speed was superior to Ei's he wouldn't need to set up any of that now would he 
He would beat Ei down by just running at Ei


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> They aren't talking about teleprtation.
> 
> Don't you get it? It's saying Minatos speed without teleportation is as fast as raikage.
> 
> Nothin is faster than instant. One of the previous databooks says that Shunshin is not comparable to the speed of Hirashin.



 Really? I don't see anywhere where it states Shunshin. 

 No it's not.

 Irrelevant and doesn't refute my point as I claimed nothing is faster than instantaneous teleportation.



> KCM Naruto posseses shunshin  of the same calibre as his dad. If we take FTG into consideration, then there is no comparison, minato stomps Naruto in speed. People need to understand that the yellow flash is more than just instant teleportaion.



 No he doesn't. KCM Naruto's Shunshin is far faster considering Minato couldn't Shunshin to dodge Young, featless Ei twice or dodge Young Obito for that matter. Minato's Shunshin and striking speed is embarrassingly slow that even Young Bee can react to him.

 Raikage also compared KCM Naruto's shunshin to dodge his blow to the instance where Minato dodged him using FTG, so it's clear Databook was talking about FTG here, not Shunshin.

 Hell, even Tsunade said KCM Naruto's dodge was just like the "Yellow Flash" and his speed was hyped up by his Hiraishin, not Shunshin.

 To add on to this, Icegaze pretty much destroyed your argument as Minato threw out all his Kunai as he knew he needed it to dodge Young Ei who he heard was fast, but eventually that same Ei who's far inferior to Shippuden Ei managed to surpass his expectations which means that Shippuden Ei >>> Young Ei >>> Young Ei (Expectations) >>> Minato's Shunshin.

 Checkmate.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> He mentally reacted to it of course he did
> But it's not like minato can go about physically avoiding Ei punch
> Yes it's all about the level of the perceiver
> However kishi wants us to know Ei is very close second to minato in speed
> ...



I never said minato shunshin surpasses Ei... did I?

I'm pretty sure I said they're equal as stated in the databook. 

Minato didn't know how fast EI was, so he set up his Kunai as precation. Minato always has Kunai set up in all his fights, that's how he fights. He's always going to rely on FTG more because it's superior to shunshin.

I'm not even going to respond to that other buffoon. I forgot that he's star wanders alt. both spouting the same nonsense about young featless Ei. This guy is actually trying to tell me that Narutos speed is comparable to instant teleportation speed


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> I never said minato shunshin surpasses Ei... did I?
> 
> I'm pretty sure I said they're equal as stated in the databook.



 You said Minato's shunshin is on par with KCM Naruto's shunshin which surpasses Ei. 



> Minato didn't know how fast EI was, so he set up his Kunai as precation. Minato always has Kunai set up in all his fights, that's how he fights. He's always going to rely on FTG more because it's superior to shunshin.



 Yet he never threw out all of Kunai all over the battlefield which is precisely the point. He expects Young Ei to be quick, Young Ei surprises him with his speed which leads to Young Ei surpassing his expectations. The fact that Young Ei who is far inferior to the Ei that KCM Naruto faced was expected to be fast to the point where Minato felt the need to have multiple Kunai set up all over the field speaks volumes.

 But hey, agree to disagree.


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2015)

Sorry why is Ei much superior to young Ei
Kishi never made said distinction 
So far as the manga is concerned Ei is Ei 
His fastest punch against minato was the same punch against naruto 

Anywayz hirashin is a teleportation why minato is faster than Ei is because of his ability to set up
Kunai quicker than Ei can move
Therefore minato is marginally faster

But like ive said at short distances their speeds are entirely the same


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry why is Ei much superior to young Ei
> Kishi never made said distinction
> So far as the manga is concerned Ei is Ei
> His fastest punch against minato was the same punch against naruto



 Except Raikage admits that he's faced Minato time and time again and says that no matter what, he could never trump his speed which means that Raikage has been boosting his speed each encounter yet could never reach the level of speed need to surpass Minato's. Of course, that excludes the 20 or so years Ei had also dedicated to training after the War.

 But hey, Kishi never made a distinction that Zetsu Suit Obito is weaker than War Arc Obito, so does that mean War Arc Obito is equal to his young self 17 years back?

 There's also the fact that Minato being a sensor, didn't piss himself at Young Ei's level of chakra and only pissed himself at his speed while V2 Raikage was mentioned by Karin to have Bijuu level chakras. 

 Adult Ei >>> Young Ei.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry why is Ei much superior to young Ei
> Kishi never made said distinction
> So far as the manga is concerned Ei is Ei
> His fastest punch against minato was the same punch against naruto
> ...



Exactly, EI says to Naruto: "you're the second person to dodge my fastest punch"

Ei's fastest punch from when he faced minato is the same as his fastest punch that he used on naruto. Kishi never said EI got faster over the years, nor is it ever implied.


Just because Naruto dodged his punch once out of like 5 initial failed attempts, doesn't make Naruto faster than ei. This is why I don't like replying to people who can't comprehend the manga, it's like talking to a brick wall, I hate repeating myself. 

1. Minato always preps the battlefield with Kunai
2. FTG BY FAR SURPASSES SHUNSHIN. Let this sink in pls! You don't use an inferior technique when you have something much better and efficent. Just cuz minato chose to go with FTG doesn't mean he couldn't go with shunshin.
3. Naruto would never in a million years dodge Eis full speed punch if he was standing still. Naruto needed a head start in order to build momentum. Hence why minato could do nothing against Eis full speed blitz except use ftg, because minato had no intention of moving and using ftg. Minato relies on ftg, and knows his ftg is greater than anything his opponent has to offer. So he let EI attempt a blitz and then took advantage of that and countered EI last minute.

Let's compare Naruto and Minato against Ei:

Naruto vs Ei:
- Naruto and Ei weren't fighting, Naruto was just Turing to pass, while EI was only trying to stop him.
- Naruto failed multiple times to get past Ei
- Naruto was always on the move
- Naruto could only pass Ei once... Marginally

Minato vs Ei:
- This was a real fight, Ei was going for the immediate kill
- Minato countered and bested Ei (that would have been the end for ei bee didn't interfere)
- Minato wasn't trying to have a race with ei or get past him, minato was trying to attack him.
- Hence why minato used ftg, what will shunshin do for minato in a battle against ei?

The databook says their speed are on the same level, yet people are trying to argue?
Meanwhile Raikage already admitted inferiority to Minatos speed so obviously minato is faster with FTG, while they are equal without FTG. Raikage can't be equal to instant, so why am I having this conversation. 

And minato and Raikage fourth several times, Ei never said anything about not being able to trump Minatos speed, he said a finer SHINOBI than minato never lived.


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2015)

BTheir speeds aren't equal at all without minato FTG
They are only comparable because minato has FTG 

And when Ei speaks of minato FTG is included
When the DB compares minato and Ei 
FTG is included 
Minato got his monicker because of Hirashin 

So no V2 Ei shunshin isn't remotely comparable to minato shunshin becauss that's what you making it sound like 

Ei is amping his shushin with a cloak no way is minato shunshin comparable 


@narutoX28 As for young and adult obito being the same level 
Tbh minato would redo what he did to war arc obito 
Obito didn't nexessarily improve his base skills he just learnt new things
He didn't get faster no reason to believe he did 
Everyone has a plateau they cannot surprass regardless of effort put in


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> BTheir speeds aren't equal at all without minato FTG
> They are only comparable because minato has FTG
> 
> And when Ei speaks of minato FTG is included
> ...



Wow, even after the databook puts this argument to rest, you're still denying it.

Minato got his name because of his mastery of FTG, not because of its speed. Why do you think Tobirama isn't called the White flash, or blue flash? It's Minatos skill and mastery with the technique that got him the name (databook confirms this).

Your are going against the manga and making contradictions. 
Manga = Ei says minato is faster. Never did Ei say their speed was comparable or even close or equal.
Databook= Says Raiton chakra mode is no way inferior to yellow flash. 

So how can both be true? One says Ei is inferior, while the other says they are equal. Obviously one refers to FTG while the other refers to Minatos natural speed.

Minatos speed is a mixture of both FTG and shunshin. Minatos nickname was also affiliated with his shunshin. When minato saved baby Naruto with shunshin, do you remember what Obito said? He said " you live up to your yellow flash moniker". See Obito only talked about shunshin. Remember when Naruto blitzed kisame? Killer bee said "that was the shunshin, but all he saw was a yellow flash". Yamato then said "he's not on the yellow flashes level yet". Again strictly speaking about shunshin.

Ei can never be equal or even remotely comparable to ftg. I already told you that the databook says that shunshin is not comparable to the speed of FTG. Therefore the databook is comparing Minatos natural speed (without hiraishin) to Eis Raiton chakra mode. If Ei was no way inferior to ftg, then minato wouldn't be the fastest would he 

It's common sense really. I don't know how many times the manga has to praise Minatos shunshin in order for people to understand that he's on v2 Eis  level. Ei cannot be equal to instant teleportation, so no the databook isn't talking about FTG at all.


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2015)

G





RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Wow, even after the databook puts this argument to rest, you're still denying it.
> 
> Minato got his name because of his mastery of FTG, not because of its speed. Why do you think Tobirama isn't called the White flash, or blue flash? It's Minatos skill and mastery with the technique that got him the name (databook confirms this).
> 
> ...



The databook or manga never separated minato shunshin speed and his hirashin speed 
Whenever it speaks of minato DB or manga 
They refer to his speed which involves hirashin 
His speed is superior to Ei speed that's all 

It isn't hirahsin >Ei speed = minato shunshin speed 

Never stated or implied 
All kishi cared to tell us is minato speed ( obviously involves hirashin ) > Ei speed

As to Yamato statement comparing KcM naruto to minato
Again it wasn't minato shunshin which was compared

It was minato speed 

Why Tobirama wasn't called white flash ??? Same reason madara name wasn't susanoo God or something silly along the lines
Despite Ei living longer and being horrendously faster than most he wasn't called blue flash or big black guy flash

The title simply shows minato is the fastest of all and hirashin is a speed feat of his 
Cuz he still has to get the kunai from A to B
Which requires physical speed


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> The databook or manga never separated minato shunshin speed and his hirashin speed
> Whenever it speaks of minato DB or manga
> They refer to his speed which involves hirashin
> His speed is superior to Ei speed that's all
> ...



Already proved you wrong. You ignored most of my post and contradicting what the manga and databook has written.

I've already proven Miantos level of speed and the comparisons between Minatos shunshin and KCM Narutos shunshin. You choose to ignore that. Ip the manga has repeatedly distinguished between Minatos shunshin and FTG . Unfortunately some lack the readding comprehension to understand such simplicity.

Maybe someone else can explain to you. I agree to disagree, manga and datebook. Can't explain any clearer than they already have. Can't take anyone serious who thinks RCM = FTG.


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2015)

Lol 
Poor kid is confused and tries to act intelligent 
Kishi has never attempted to differentiate the 2
KcM uzed shunshin . Therefore speed
Yamato your not on minato level

How on earth does that prove Yamato was referring to shunshin

Also it's funny how wrong you are considering on panel hirashin marking has been called a shunshin marking 



And I have the reading compression

Till you can have kishi say FTG is faster than Ei but minato shunshin is equal to Ei
Then you are wrong 

Panel evidence pls not your terrible interpretation


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 17, 2015)

Bee mentions shunshin, then yamato says it's not on Minatos level. Yet you're asking how it proves he was talking about shunshin LOOOL.

Lord have mercy. I already showed you the Obito scan where he affiliates Minatos nickname with his body flicker. Yet you're still having difficulties.

No you don't have the reading comprehension in the very slightest. I'm arguing with a guy who says RCM = FTG. How sad.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol
> Poor kid is confused and tries to act intelligent
> Kishi has never attempted to differentiate the 2
> KcM uzed shunshin . Therefore speed
> ...



1. Yamato's words cant be taken seiously. He has never seen Minato using his Shunshin anyway.
2. V2 Ei could dodge Amaterasu with his Shunshin. Show me Minato's feat with Shunshin that is better.


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Bee mentions shunshin, then yamato says it's not on Minatos level. Yet you're asking how it proves he was talking about shunshin LOOOL.
> 
> Lord have mercy. I already showed you the Obito scan where he affiliates Minatos nickname with his body flicker. Yet you're still having difficulties.
> 
> No you don't have the reading comprehension in the very slightest. I'm arguing with a guy who says RCM = FTG. How sad.



And shunshin is interchanged with hirashin a lot 
Hirashin mark has been called a shunshin mark
So how does that prove bee meant minato shunshin 

The minato obito incident is very simple to understand . It associates his speed ( regardless of how ) to his nickname . Obviously all obito meant is with that name you would expect him to be fast 

How does that prove minato shunshin is as fast as Ei when he amps it with bijuu level chakra
Considering the only other person shunshin who has been able to match that used kyuubi chakra to do so 

You are arguing with a guy who read the manga and actually understands it 

No one here or kishi said KCM speed = hirashin 

What we said is KcM speed = minato speed 

Minato must set up the kunai to use hirashin that requires physical speed doesn't it ??? 

So the set up and then the hirashin that follows is as fast as KcM naruto using his shunshin 

You are the only one who thinks minato shunshin is as fast as Ei yet you somehow claim the rest of us have reading comprehension

How cute


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## sabre320 (Feb 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> And shunshin is interchanged with hirashin a lot
> Hirashin mark has been called a shunshin mark
> So how does that prove bee meant minato shunshin
> 
> ...



Actually the databook did differentiate between hirashin and shunshin where in minatos ftg it is specifically written it is different from shunshin and surpasses it.........

obito specifically commented on minatos shunshin and praised it directly commenting on him being worthy of the yellow flash obito saw his shunshin before hand thus proving he got his moniker for shunshin as well as hirashin....obito could not even strike naruto from point blank before minato shunshined saved naruto and was on the other side of the room:/

same obito was unimpressed by raikages attempt to shunshin blitz him...and rather easily reacted to attacks from kcm naruto gai and kakashi..

once again his shunshin was hyped by the former fastest man tobirama who said that his shunshin paled in comparson to yondaimes further cementing kishis intent of minatos shunshin being extra ordinary...and lets review that feat all four hokage rushed to the battle field with shunshins ensing the juubi and madara sensing impending doom and gloom...minato sensing the juubi and knowing the threat shunshin out a hundred miles out to sea throws a kunai there shunshins back to the battlefield then shunshin around the battlefield sets up markings around it while noone registered his presence including sensors...and after all this was done still tobirama took sometime to make it to the battlefield if this isnt amazing shunshin mastery then i dont know what:/

In konoha he was on hokage mountain then shunshins across konoha and blitzes kurama with fcd same kurama who was pressuring  sm naruto with speed...the problem with your argument that he summoned gamabunta and teleported to him is that fcd is not a long range technique that can be used across konoha he had to get above kurama to summon gamabunta and that was through shunshin.....

minatos shunshin feats are there and his praise and statements are also there...just because he uses ftg dosent mean his shunshin isnt amazing he uses ftg most times because it is faster more effiicient and allows him to position himself and allows him to perform both offensive and defensive acts at the same time..

im not saying his shunshin is faster then ei but its in the same ball park and is more consistent across longer distances


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2015)

Kk sabre 
Same ball park 
Then . I concede 
Though he used hirashin to get to kyuubi 
Why because hiss chakra is linked to his summon he can casually hirashin to gamabunta anytime and it's quicker so makes sense 

Am not saying without hirahsin he won't have gotten the monicker am well aware he is physically faster than Tobirama 
However I don't think he is at the level where he can side step an amaterasu

@rasen I concede 
apparently the distinction was made 
Seeing sabre agrees with you as well 

So then by what you both saying minato shunshin =Ei shunshin 
Then by using hirashin minato clearly exceeds Ei


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## sabre320 (Feb 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Kk sabre
> Same ball park
> Then . I concede
> Though he used hirashin to get to kyuubi
> ...



yup fair enough but he used shunshin to get to the kyuubi because fcd is not a long ranged technique it can only be used in a 100m radius you use a summoning above the target minato needed to first reach kurama then use fcd


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> yup fair enough but he used shunshin to get to the kyuubi because fcd is not a long ranged technique it can only be used in a 100m radius you use a summoning above the target minato needed to first reach kurama then use fcd



Sorry howu know FCD can only be used in a 100m radius ?
Where is that stated 
It has no range last I checked 

Though your explanation does make some sense can't fault it 

Mind showing me where it says FCD is short  ranged ?

Checked DB it's all ranges 
Your theory wrong


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## Negrito (Feb 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry howu know FCD can only be used in a 100m radius ?
> Where is that stated
> It has no range last I checked
> 
> ...



I think it just makes more sense that he used Shunshin, followed by FCD.

I saw that you're thinking Minato used Hiraishin in order to appear on top of Gamabunta, but that is flawed.

First, you're assuming the chakra Minato used for FCD is automatically given (links) to the summon. Nothing really supports this. The chakra used is just for the jutsu, it is the cost for the summon.

Second, the whole "chakra  link to Hiraishin" was stated a significant amount after this fight.  During the Kyuubi's attack Kishi made sure to at the very least mention where a Hiraishin tag resided whenever Hiraishin was used. If Kishi really intended for that to be Hiraishin usage he would of let it be more apparent.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

You guys are convincing me that Minato's Shunshin is faster than I originally expected. I totally forgot about Minato using Shunshin to rescue Naruto. 

 However, that doesn't mean his Shunshin surpasses Ei's. Base Bee despite stunned could shunshin to a far away mountain range fast enough where Karin didn't instantly sense his location and it's pretty much confirmed that V1 Ei is faster than V1 Bee.

 Then again, I need to look at the scan of Minato using Shunshin to reach Gamabunta.


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2015)

Negrito said:


> I think it just makes more sense that he used Shunshin, followed by FCD.
> 
> I saw that you're thinking Minato used Hiraishin in order to appear on top of Gamabunta, but that is flawed.
> 
> ...



I disagree 
Kishi made it clear chakra link alone can be used for hirashin the mark isn't complusory 

Makes no sense for him to have shunshin then summoned gamabunta that would be slower than using a summoning Jutsu which is instant then teleporting to said location 

Minato would know that . 

Hirahsin has been used on several occasions to teleport war arc ninja out of harms way and teleport 
Sasuke to naruto location . Right before the juudara battle tobirama used the chakra link between Minato and naruto to bring sasuke to naruto location 

The mark simply imprints chakra on that location indefinitely it's howveer not needed when you already have a chakra link . Which of course includes Summons their chakras are linked 

Do read up on summons . Summon can reverse summon the summoner and vice versa


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## sabre320 (Feb 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry howu know FCD can only be used in a 100m radius ?
> Where is that stated
> It has no range last I checked
> 
> ...



A destructive dive that takes full advantage of a giant toad's body mass. The strength of the fall varies depending on the user. For example, in the case of someone like Jiraiya — one of the Sannin, the summon can be performed in an instant right above the target, further adding the great gravitational force of a several hundred metre-high dive to the toad's own weight. 

its basically summoning from above the person needs to be in the general vicinity to summon like in every case in the manga are you seriously saying a person can perform food cart destroyer
from across a 15-20km village

if that was the case jirayia would be so hax jirayia would just sit at a strip joint and summon giant toads on enemies from miles away lol


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## Negrito (Feb 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I disagree
> Kishi made it clear chakra link alone can be used for hirashin the mark isn't complusory
> 
> Makes no sense for him to have shunshin then summoned gamabunta that would be slower than using a summoning Jutsu which is instant then teleporting to said location
> ...



I don't think you understood my reply to you at all.

You're assuming that when Minato uses the summoning jutsu that his summons are automatically "linked" with his chakra. 

That isn't the case as said chakra is spent, as the cost, for the summon. It isn't given to the summon.

I wasn't talking about how the chakra links work. Or if it would work with Bunta. Or that summons are able to use the summoning jutsu.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 17, 2015)

With regards to FCD, it is an every range jutsu. Short-med-long. The user summons a toad directly above the opponent or target.  Getting above the target/opponent isn't necessary. It's a special type of summoning technique, whereby the user can perform the summon in a position of their choosing.That's why it's a B rank technique, it actually takes some skill to perform. It's not the same as just summoning a toad, otherwise that would make it a C rank. 2nd databook clearly states that it can be performed directly above a target in an instant. Minato didn't not shunshin all the way above kurama, just to perform a summon. He shunshin'd to Bunta after the summon was made. People don't realise just how op FCD is due to the fact that the user can instantly summon from wherever they are, right above their opponent. I don't believe in the whole minato teleporting above Bunta using chakra link, Seems farfetched to me.

Don't think anyone has mentioned the ridiculous speed feat of teleporting to Kushina, and then using shunshin to almost instantly dodge Kurama's attack, and then appear all the way at the top of that tree on that small cliff. God knows how many meters away that was, and considering he was entirely unaware of the danger he just teleported into, he would have had to react super last minute to shunshin away from Kurama's claw almost crushing him.


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## sabre320 (Feb 17, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> With regards to FCD, it is an every range jutsu. Short-med-long. The user summons a toad directly above the opponent or target.  Getting above the target/opponent isn't necessary. It's a special type of summoning technique, whereby the user can perform the summon in a position of their choosing.That's why it's a B rank technique, it actually takes some skill to perform. It's not the same as just summoning a toad, otherwise that would make it a C rank. 2nd databook clearly states that it can be performed directly above a target in an instant. Minato didn't not shunshin all the way above kurama, just to perform a summon. He shunshin'd to Bunta after the summon was made. People don't realise just how op FCD is due to the fact that the user can instantly summon from wherever they are, right above their opponent. I don't believe in the whole minato teleporting above Bunta using chakra link, Seems farfetched to me.
> 
> Don't think anyone has mentioned the ridiculous speed feat of teleporting to Kushina, and then using shunshin to almost instantly dodge Kurama's attack, and then appear all the way at the top of that tree on that small cliff. God knows how many meters away that was, and considering he was entirely unaware of the danger he just teleported into, he would have had to react super last minute to shunshin away from Kurama's claw almost crushing him.



Dude everyrange jutsu does not mean he can use fcd from around the world you have to be in a reasonable distance from the summoning point...jirayia who is extremely skilled at summoning was still in the general vicinity when he used fcd he didnt use it while 20miles away otherwise he could have while konoha was being attaked by orochimaru...its just unreasonable to assume that minato or jirayia can summon giant toads on peoples heads from 20-30 miles away:/


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 17, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Dude everyrange jutsu does not mean he can use fcd from around the world you have to be in a reasonable distance from the summoning point...jirayia who is extremely skilled at summoning was still in the general vicinity when he used fcd he didnt use it while 20miles away otherwise he could have while konoha was being attaked by orochimaru...its just unreasonable to assume that minato or jirayia can summon giant toads on peoples heads from 20-30 miles away:/



I didn't say it can be done from miles away.

But it's classed as an all range jutsu. Which minato showed with his usage.

I'd say a few hundred meters is the max distance that the technique can reach. It's absurd to think it can cover miles.


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2015)

Negrito said:


> I don't think you understood my reply to you at all.
> 
> You're assuming that when Minato uses the summoning jutsu that his summons are automatically "linked" with his chakra.
> 
> ...



and i dont think you understood mine 
am saying minato used hirashin to get to bunta

the end. 

there is a chakra link. quite obviously 

the same way minato clone used hirashin to summon the original to its location. no markings involved just chakra.


@rasen minato definitely has amazing shunshin feats however reading through the manga thanks to this thread one thing must be noted

the manga has very clearly differeintated between the 2

shunshin he used to save kakashi from the rock fodder. Rin said nothing much about hsi speed

however when he used hirashin to get back to that fodder rin noted how fast that was. 


I would say hirashin markings are very easy to set up and during a war would be made even easier when he has his fellow ninja spamming his kunai. 

entirely possible people spent time mistaking his hirashin for shunshin since they would have no way to figure out the mechanics behind the jutsu


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## sabre320 (Feb 17, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> I didn't say it can be done from miles away.
> 
> But it's classed as an all range jutsu. Which minato showed with his usage.
> 
> I'd say a few hundred meters is the max distance that the technique can reach. It's absurd to think it can cover miles.



and yet minato was on hokage mountain and kurama was outside konoha and konoha is atleast 10 miles so how could minato summon gama on kuramas head unless he shhunshined into range ...


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## Negrito (Feb 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> and i dont think you understood mine
> am saying minato used hirashin to get to bunta
> 
> the end.
> ...



Then I will have to ask you to show me this "quite obvious" link that Gamabunta has with Minato's chakra. 

You can't say that a KB that is made from Minato's chakra is comparable to Bunta, who has his own chakra.


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## sabre320 (Feb 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> and i dont think you understood mine
> am saying minato used hirashin to get to bunta
> 
> the end.
> ...



hirashin is teleporting so no one would mistake him for leaving a yellow flash like after image ... him combining shunshin and hirashin and shunshining around while using ftg would make alot more sense no?

and regarding the chakra link the summoner uses his chakra as forfeit to summon the creature the summon is not composed of the summoners chakra ...they have their own chakra..otherwise obito would have a chakra link with kurama and would power himself up from kuramas chakra instead of just genjutsuing it..


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 17, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> and yet minato was on hokage mountain and kurama was outside konoha and konoha is atleast 10 miles so how could minato summon gama on kuramas head unless he shhunshined into range ...



Yeah then maybe he shunshin'd into range then summoned him. Because as we can see, minato is on top of Bunta's head before Bunta even lands.

My point is that the summoner can be on the ground and summon the toad directly on top of you.


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2015)

Negrito said:


> Then I will have to ask you to show me this "quite obvious" link that Gamabunta has with Minato's chakra.
> 
> You can't say that a KB that is made from Minato's chakra is comparable to Bunta, who has his own chakra.



Let me ask you this simple question . 
How does minato summon bunta ?
With chakra 
Based on the chakra he puts into it bunta stays for a certain time 

How can my chakra require your presence otherwise you can't be there 
How can we have a contract dictating said terms and then you assume their chakras aren't linked in any way ? 

How did Shima summon naruto ? They have a link to each other . 

And yes I can compare a clone to bunta presence 
Yes bunta has his chakra however in order to use it on the battle field he must be summoned by his summoner who uses his chakra to open the portal . 

Madara could summon kyuubi at any time would you say their chakra aren't linked ? Cuz kyuubi sure as hell didn't have a contract with him


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @rasen minato definitely has amazing shunshin feats however reading through the manga thanks to this thread one thing must be noted
> 
> the manga has very clearly differeintated between the 2
> 
> ...



Glad you know that Minato used shunshin to rescue Kakashi. Some will tell you it was ftg, which is false.

Anyway Databook says "SWIFTNESS THAT SURPASSES SHUNSHIN". FTG is always gonna be Minatos more viable option, so he's not gonna rely on shunshin as much as the Raikage does. Unlike Ei, minato has the notion between both FTG and shunshin. Let's not forget Minatos words about speed, if you're moving too fast, you can't see your opponents counter. Rock Lee also said the same thing in part 1, he wouldn't run strict into his opponent with such speed, it's too risk you. Ei has rock hard skin and a lifting shield, so he doesn't need to worry as much as. 

I'm sure some mistook his FTG and shunshin, however the manga also makes it clear when people who praise Minatos speed actually know what they are talking about.

Killer bee "that was the shunshin no jutsu, but all I saw was a yellow flash"
Yamato "he's not on the fourth Hokages level yet"
(Kishi hyping Minatos shunshin, not for the first time. Bee comparing it to minato, and yamato saying KCM Narutos shunshin isn't of the same calibre as minato yet... Self explanatory really)

Obito "you live up to your yellow flash moniker/leave it to the yellow flash"
(Obito says this after witnessing Minatos shunshin. As Minatos former student, he knows what he's talking about. He's associating Minatos shunshin speed with his nickname, kishi again hyping Minatos speed based on shunshin and nothing to do with ftg)

Obito "You're as quick as your nickname"
(Minato saves Kushina using shunshin, yet again Minatos nickname is being associated with shunshin and not FTG, I don't know how much more kishi can hype Minatos shunshin speed)

Hiruzen "you still live up to your name,Minato"
(Minato used shunshin to get to the battlefield, yet Hiruzen is praising minato for living up to his reputation as the fastest shinobi/yellow flash. Again has nothing to do with FTG)

Tobirama"Fourth, your shunshin is better than mine"
(Coming from the former fastest shinobi)

Ei "you're the second person to OUTRUN my fastest punch"
(Emphasis on the word outrun! Even killer bee and Tsunade react by saying naruto really is just like the yellow flash, after seeing Narutos shunshin).


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2015)

I agree rasen all but your last comment 
Minato outran his fastest punch with hirashin though
But yes his shushin has been hyped as you have highlighted 

Did you however note that rin did point out the difference between the 2
When minato saved Kakashi rin said notning of his speed 
However when he returned to kill the fodder rin was like how fast 

I do understand all your points though . It's just that if minato was already as fast as Ei without hirashin then seriously he is OP to no bloody end . Means he can side step amaterasu without hirashin . That's huge!!


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## Negrito (Feb 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Let me ask you this simple question .
> How does minato summon bunta ?
> With chakra
> Based on the chakra he puts into it bunta stays for a certain time



Again, where is your evidence that the chakra Minato uses for the summoning jutsu is transferred to Bunta and it's not just spent when the jutsu is used?

Kuchiyose is a space/time jutsu, it transfers a summon to the location of the summoner.  Where has it been stated that the summons have a time limit? 



> how can my chakra require your presence otherwise you can't be there
> How can we have a contract dictating said terms and then you assume their chakras aren't linked in any way ?



Kuchiyose works by teleporting the summons, you have no proof that it links their chakras.



> How did Shima summon naruto ? They have a link to each other .



1. Shima can use chakra.
2. Naruto signed the Toad Contract.
3. Shima can use Kuchiyose.

Where in any of that is your evidence at a chakra link exist between them?



> And yes I can compare a clone to bunta presence
> Yes bunta has his chakra however in order to use it on the battle field he must be summoned by his summoner who uses his chakra to open the portal .



Really? You're going to compare a KB, which Minato has to use his own chakra to create, to Bunta which is a living being with his own chakra network?

Bunta doesn't have to be summoned in order to use his chakra, he can use it in Toad Mountain, he can use it if he travels to the location by normal means.



> Madara could summon kyuubi at any time would you say their chakra aren't linked ? Cuz kyuubi sure as hell didn't have a contract with him



Madara summoning the Kyuubi is a different jutsu,  with different mechanics.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I agree rasen all but your last comment
> Minato outran his fastest punch with hirashin though
> But yes his shushin has been hyped as you have highlighted
> 
> ...



Rin didn't say anything but the rock ninja did. 
Depending on what translation you go by, he said: 
"at the last moment I was about to counter that kid' but that blond assholes movements..."
Or
"I was barely able to counterattack that brat, but that the way that guy moved...

I think rin was too concerned about Kakashi to be making complements while Kakashi was about to be killed. The rock ninja certainly made note of Minatos speed/movements though.

With regard to my last point, you can't "outrun" someone with teleporting. To outrun suggests usage of feet. Remember minato and Eis first battle was only one of many of their confrontations/battles. So who knows what minato did in their other battles. 

Well I always beleive minato was as fast as ei, but boy did it need a lot of evidence to prove. I would have thought that Eis statement "there is no shinobi faster than me, now that the fourth Hokage has passed".  But apparently that wasn't enough.


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2015)

No Ei statement wasnt enough 
As most thought he was referring to hirashin which still needs a speed feat to set up 

@naruto prove Kyuubi summoning is different . It's a summon like any other 

Madara chakra is linked to kyuubi's


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## sabre320 (Feb 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> No Ei statement wasnt enough
> As most thought he was referring to hirashin which still needs a speed feat to set up
> 
> @naruto prove Kyuubi summoning is different . It's a summon like any other
> ...



if madara and obitos chakra was linked to the kyuubis wouldnt they be able to draw upon  its power to powerup? anyways thats basically irrelevant regarding minatos shunshin feat because minato can summon bunta from 15 miles away...


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> if madara and obitos chakra was linked to the kyuubis wouldnt they be able to draw upon  its power to powerup? anyways thats basically irrelevant regarding minatos shunshin feat because minato can summon bunta from 15 miles away...



because kyuubi Wouldnt willingly give them chakra
They also aren't his jinchukiri

The fodders naruto gave chakra to despite there being a chakra link it's not like the fodders could draw more chakra from Naruto without him wanting them to


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## Negrito (Feb 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @naruto prove Kyuubi summoning is different . It's a summon like any other
> 
> Madara chakra is linked to kyuubi's



The fact that the Kyuubi summon is on a timer. That is the proof. Show me any other summon that has had this restriction.

Also prove that Madara's chakra is linked to the Kyuubi because of Kuchiyose. Nothing suggest this. The only way we have seen a Bijuu link itself to a person, and give chakra,  is when Naruto got the farther meeting place of the Bijuu. Madara has never done this.


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2015)

Negrito said:


> The fact that the Kyuubi summon is on a timer. That is the proof. Show me any other summon that has had this restriction.
> 
> Also prove that Madara's chakra is linked to the Kyuubi because of Kuchiyose. Nothing suggest this. The only way we have seen a Bijuu link itself to a person, and give chakra,  is when Naruto got the farther meeting place of the Bijuu. Madara has never done this.



Gamakichi told naruto before he poofed away that his time limit was up


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## Negrito (Feb 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Gamakichi told naruto before he poofed away that his time limit was up



You're right about this.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> No Ei statement wasnt enough
> As most thought he was referring to hirashin which still needs a speed feat to set up



then that would make anyone with space time ninjutsu faster than Ei. Ei already tried to blitz Obito and failed. Ei also witnessed Obitos warp speed, after he rescued sasuke from jinton. Yet Ei still claimed to be the fastest man after that. Space time ninjutsu doesn't make you the fastest, otherwise minato and tobirama would both be equal, which obviously isn't the case.

Obito can teleport from country to country in second, he can travel the longest distances in the shortest amount of tiime, without prep or set up. Yet the manga dopesn't hype him for his speed, nor has the databooks ever once complimented his speed.

Space time ninjutsu is fast, but it's not actual speed. There is no velocity involved.You don't call someone the fastest because they can use a jutsu to appear somewhere in an instant. Anyone can learn space time ninjutsu, you don't get the title as fastest for that. It's all based on your foot speed. Always has been.


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> then that would make anyone with space time ninjutsu faster than Ei. Ei already tried to blitz Obito and failed. Ei also witnessed Obitos warp speed, after he rescued sasuke from jinton. Yet Ei still claimed to be the fastest man after that. Space time ninjutsu doesn't make you the fastest, otherwise minato and tobirama would both be equal, which obviously isn't the case.
> 
> Obito can teleport from country to country in second, he can travel the longest distances in the shortest amount of tiime, without prep or set up. Yet the manga dopesn't hype him for his speed, nor has the databooks ever once complimented his speed.
> 
> Space time ninjutsu is fast, but it's not actual speed. There is no velocity involved.You don't call someone the fastest because they can use a jutsu to appear somewhere in an instant. Anyone can learn space time ninjutsu, you don't get the title as fastest for that. It's all based on your foot speed. Always has been.



Obito is slower than Ei in battle hence why even. After evading Ei 
Ei said he is still faster 
At 100m obito has to use kamui twice to get to a target . Ei would causally cover that before obito
Hence why as far as battle is concerned Ei is faster 

Also why I believed minato was faster counting is hirashin is because unlike obito S/T 
Hirashin requires physical speed to set up 

Also note juudara called rinnegan sasuke fast . S/T is still classified as speed 

But I do agree minato got some impressive foot speed


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Obito is slower than Ei in battle hence why even. After evading Ei
> Ei said he is still faster
> At 100m obito has to use kamui twice to get to a target . Ei would causally cover that before obito
> Hence why as far as battle is concerned Ei is faster
> ...


yet ei would not be able to land a single hit on obito, if they were to fight. 

like i said before, tobirama used the same instantaneous jutsu, yet kishi praised his speed based on shunshin, not ftg.

madara called sasuke fast for chasing after him. was nothing to do with his s/t


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2015)

C





RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> yet ei would not be able to land a single hit on obito, if they were to fight.
> 
> like i said before, tobirama used the same instantaneous jutsu, yet kishi praised his speed based on shunshin, not ftg.
> 
> madara called sasuke fast for chasing after him. was nothing to do with his s/t



Phasing is much faster than using kamui to move from point A to B
Speed is distance over time. Regardless of how short the time is 
Juudara coildnt hit obito either that doesn't make juudara slower now does it 

But sasuke used his S/T to catch up to juudara


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> C
> 
> Phasing is much faster than using kamui to move from point A to B
> Speed is distance over time. Regardless of how short the time is
> ...



 Did he? I was under the belief Sasuke used his Shunshin to catch up to Juudara considering his Rinnegan powers were out of range as stated by Juudara himself.


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## Icegaze (Feb 19, 2015)

He used S/T to get in range then shunshin the rest of the way 
Would make sense his S/T is faster . 
And wasn't in recharge time


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## sabre320 (Feb 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> He used S/T to get in range then shunshin the rest of the way
> Would make sense his S/T is faster .
> And wasn't in recharge time



ya he used st but he his reflexes and physical speed allowed him the hit thus madaras comment


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> He used S/T to get in range then shunshin the rest of the way
> Would make sense his S/T is faster .
> And wasn't in recharge time



 All right, that makes a lot more sense considering RSM Naruto was faster anyways.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (May 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> He used S/T to get in range then shunshin the rest of the way
> Would make sense his S/T is faster .
> And wasn't in recharge time





sabre320 said:


> ya he used st but he his reflexes and physical speed allowed him the hit thus madaras comment



Can. See the prof that Sasuke used space time to close the gap between himself and Madara? I was under the impression it was just normal running speed.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 13, 2015)

Unlimited Necro Works


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## Icegaze (May 14, 2015)

@rasen why use normal footspeed when you got an ST jutsu that is horribly faster
in any case minato will always get to anywhere or the target before A because of hirashin 

if A amps up and shunshins 100m
minato can throw a kunai and appear at that kunai before A covers that distance

now despite obito being able to lol evade A. obito cannot cover any distance quicker than obito can if A knows the start and finish line. hence kishi having A tell us he is still faster than obito 

doesn't mean obito cant react to him etc.


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## StarWanderer (May 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @rasen why use normal footspeed when you got an ST jutsu that is horribly faster
> in any case minato will always get to anywhere or the target before A because of hirashin
> 
> if A amps up and shunshins 100m
> ...



What is faster - Ei's max shunshin, or kunai thrown by Minato?


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## Icegaze (May 14, 2015)

kunai thrown by minato 
no different from the fact that even you can throw a baseball much faster than hussain bolt by a huge margin


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## StarWanderer (May 14, 2015)

> kunai thrown by minato



Prove that. 

I might be able to throw baseball faster than Usain Bolt. But that proves nothing in this situation. Ei can amp his speed to the point when he can dodge even such techniques as Amaterasu. I highly doubt kunai thrown by Minato is faster than V2 Ei.


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## Icegaze (May 14, 2015)

Minato kunai throw speed is faster 
Which I have said and which it must be 
Otherwise Minato wouldn't be faster 

Again A won't claim to be slower than Minato if Minato could not get his mark from A to B and appear there before A shunshin there 

Makes no sense 

Also if that were the case A won't have a issue killing Minato . Since all he would need to do is attack first to troll 

If Minato doesn't escape with a mark far away 

Instead Minato was able to bully him time and time again


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## StarWanderer (May 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Minato kunai throw speed is faster
> Which I have said and which it must be
> Otherwise Minato wouldn't be faster
> 
> ...



When Ei was not a kage and didnt have Tailed Beast level chakra to amp his Shunshin.

Ei claimed that he was the fastest now when Minato was dead. That was because Ei couldnt defeat Minato when he was alive. But how good that Minato will be compare to prime Raikage Ei's V2 speed?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (May 14, 2015)

@Icegaze

I still didn't see any indication of Sasuke using teleprtation, looked like he was simply running.

You ask why someone would run when they can teleport, but Minato already explained that a long time ago. Running full speed at someone means you can't see your opponents counter, hence why Minato prefers to rely on his FTG. Minato told Kakashi this the first time he used chidori. Lee said the same thing back in part 1, that he would never run full speed directly into his opponent, because he'd get countered. However the sharingan allows one to counter better. You see what happened to A, he ran full speed at monato, and was unable to see minatos counter. So why would Minato make the same mistake?

It's not that minatos throwing speed is faster than his running speed. It's just that FTG is more viable, against juudara Minato had to throw a kunai for 2 reasons. First reason is like I already said, Minato wouldn't contracdicts his own words and run full speed into his opponent. And secondly because Gaara put up a sand wall, so Minato threw his kunai over that wall since he he would have run right into it if he tried to use his shunshin.


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## Icegaze (May 14, 2015)

@@rasen
Shunshin is chakra control+ chakra quantity
Minato shunshin simply isn't as fast as A so he got no reason to use shunshin 

However minato is faster because he can always get his mark to a location before A

It's that simple to me . And doesn't contradict shunshin basis


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (May 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @@rasen
> Shunshin is chakra control+ chakra quantity
> Minato shunshin simply isn't as fast as A so he got no reason to use shunshin
> 
> ...


What does that have to do with anything? Minato is a true sage, so he has high chakra quantity. And he invented Rasengan which is the highest form of chakra manipulation (pretty much the pinnacle of chakra control). So thanks for the equation.

Says you, I thought we already went through this. Minato is not slower than A in any department, . The db already said they're as fast as each other: "Raiton chakra mode praised to be as fast as the yellow flash".

Sad part is Minato has better shunshin feats than A, yet this debate is still on going .

A can shunshin straight into the enemy without worrying because his chakra armor protects him from counter attacks. On the other hand Minato doesn't possesses sharingan or inhuman durability, hence why FTG is a more viable, safer option. Minato is smarter than that and already said running in a straight line into an enemy is bad. So it's not something he's gonna constantly do himself.


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## UchihaX28 (May 14, 2015)

^ Except ShunShin depends on Chakra Output, Chakra Quality, and Chakra Control. Ei's Chakra Manipulation is likely superior in this case considering he can apply nature manipulation throughout his entire body which boosts his Shunshin and unlike Minato, Ei has Bijuu level Chakra which implies a Stronger Shunshin.

 Minato also had to rely on a field of Kunai for Hiraishin in order to evade someone he believed to be very fast, only to be shocked by Young Ei's full speed which caused him to almost get his teeth knocked out meaning Young Ei surpassed Minato's expectations of his speed and Young Ei cannot use Bijuu Levels of Chakra.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (May 14, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ Except ShunShin depends on Chakra Output, Chakra Quality, and Chakra Control. Ei's Chakra Manipulation is likely superior in this case considering he can apply nature manipulation throughout his entire body which boosts his Shunshin and unlike Minato, Ei has Bijuu level Chakra which implies a Stronger Shunshin.
> 
> Minato also had to rely on a field of Kunai for Hiraishin in order to evade someone he believed to be very fast, only to be shocked by Young Ei's full speed which caused him to almost get his teeth knocked out meaning Young Ei surpassed Minato's expectations of his speed and Young Ei cannot use Bijuu Levels of Chakra.



Keep saying Young A like that means something lol. Me too I will say young Minato, since by my count he was only 19/20 years old. Meanwhile A was a good seven years older than Minato.

I'm glad you said likely, meaning pure speculation and no evidence, so I care not for your comment. Minato had the ability to transfer chakra to others, being able to match his own chakra to their own, that is chakra manipulation at its finest. Being able to alter your chakra to match someone else's, is as good as it gets. It's not about who has more chakra, it's about who has the most skill in using it. Third Raikage arguably has way more chakra than his son and both use the same techniques, yet A is faster. So larger chakra doesn't imply jack.

He relied on a field of kunai because FTG>>>>Shunshin. Get it through your thick skulls. Use common sense, you don't rely on an inferior technique when you have a superior one." The speed of FTG is not comparable to that of shunshin" as said in the Databook, so stop bringing it up. Only reason Minato couldn't dodge A with shunshin is because Minato wasn't moving, he waitited for A to attack, so that he could counter attack. Even KCM Naruto couldnt counter As speed while standing still (hence why bee saved him). So KCM Naruto had to make sure he got a head start and was constantly moving, so he could build up enough speed to evade on foot. 

Doesn't even matter what you say, when A shows greater shunshin feats than Minato, then we can really talk.


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## UchihaX28 (May 14, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Keep saying Young A like that means something lol. Me too I will say young Minato, since by my count he was only 19/20 years old. Meanwhile A was a good seven years older than Minato.



 Young Minato = Alive Minato. 





> I'm glad you said likely, meaning pure speculation and no evidence, so I care not for your comment.







> Minato had the ability to transfer chakra to others, being able to match his own chakra to their own, that is chakra manipulation at its finest. Being able to alter your chakra to match someone else's, is as good as it gets.



 Except that in no way implies a higher shunshin while Raikage can use a nature manipulation which was directly stated to enhance both speed and reflexes. There are different types of Chakra manipulation. Just because someone is superior in that regard doesn't make his Chakra manipulation suited for Shunshin. Hell, Part 1 Sasuke had superior Shunshin to Part 1 Sakura despite having inferior Chakra control.



> It's not about who has more chakra, it's about who has the most skill in using it. Third Raikage arguably has way more chakra than his son and both use the same techniques, yet A is faster. So larger chakra doesn't imply jack.



 I wasn't discussing about Chakra Reserves, I was talking about how much Chakra the Raikage can use all at once compared to what Minato is capable of doing. The reason why it's Chakra Output is due to Karin's statement and Karin can only sense the amount of Chakra someone puts out all at once. Considering Ei required to do so for his Max Shunshin, that implies how much Chakra that is used towards Shunshin plays a massive role. Top that off with a higher Quality of Chakra due to Nature Manipulation and there's no way Minato's Shunshin is on par with V2 Ei's.

 Of course the 3rd has more Chakra, but I never claimed that Chakra Reserves affected Shunshin.





> He relied on a field of kunai because FTG>>>>Shunshin. Get it through your thick skulls. Use common sense, you don't rely on an inferior technique when you have a superior one." The speed of FTG is not comparable to that of shunshin" as said in the Databook, so stop bringing it up. Only reason Minato couldn't dodge A with shunshin is because Minato wasn't moving, he waitited for A to attack, so that he could counter attack. Even KCM Naruto couldnt counter As speed while standing still (hence why bee saved him). So KCM Naruto had to make sure he got a head start and was constantly moving, so he could build up enough speed to evade on foot.



 Except Minato being forced to scatter a bunch of Kunai across the field when he has never done so against any opponent and then credits it due to Ei's hype in speed implies that he didn't believe he could match it with just normal FTG or Shunshin.



> Doesn't even matter what you say, when A shows greater shunshin feats than Minato, then we can really talk.





 K then.


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## Icegaze (May 15, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> What does that have to do with anything? Minato is a true sage, so he has high chakra quantity. And he invented Rasengan which is the highest form of chakra manipulation (pretty much the pinnacle of chakra control). So thanks for the equation.
> 
> Says you, I thought we already went through this. Minato is not slower than A in any department, . The db already said they're as fast as each other: "Raiton chakra mode praised to be as fast as the yellow flash".
> 
> ...



Minato doesn't have better shunshin feats though
The one where he gets to bunta was hirashin . 

A got more chakra and is using a Jutsu to boost his speed an reflexes you the only poster on this forum who think Minato shunshin is actually faster 
Notning in the manha supports this 



Hirashin is counted as speed I guess that's why u getting confused . Distance over time buddy even if the time is negligible moving from point A to B requires speed 

Also Kishi shows us Minato avoiding A with hirashin . 

Mind showing me Minato using shunshin to avoid A or side step amaterasu ? Or be called impossibly fast while using shunshin?

@narutox28
Any proof Young A don't got bijuu level cjakra ? Any proof he got faster 
Nothing suggest he got faster


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## StarWanderer (May 15, 2015)

> Any proof Young A don't got bijuu level cjakra ? Any proof he got faster
> Nothing suggest he got faster



Thats not how it works. Its up to you to bring here a proof that young Raikage had Bijuu level chakra (he never demonstrated that level of chakra) and was just as fast 17 years later. He trained for those 17 years and he demonstrated Bijuu level chakra when he was Raikage. Young Ei never, ever demonstrated the level of chakra and speed Raikage Ei demonstrated. There is nothing to suggest Ei was the same.


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## Icegaze (May 15, 2015)

Actually you do 
Since kishi the author never stated A improved can't just assume he did 

Why would A refer to Minato as avoiding his fastest punch If he got a lot faster as he got older ?


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## StarWanderer (May 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Actually you do
> Since kishi the author never stated A improved can't just assume he did
> 
> Why would A refer to Minato as avoiding his fastest punch If he got a lot faster as he got older ?



You cant just put them in the same level when there was a 17 years time gap. Kishimoto never stated that War Arc Kakashi was in a different level than Gaiden Kakashi. Should we put them in the same level as well?

Show me any of young Ei's feats. Show me young Ei using tailed beasts level chakra. Show me that. 

Maybe because he did in fact avoided it? And maybe because Minato still would have been faster if he lived as long as Raikage?


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## Icegaze (May 15, 2015)

Actually he did state kakahshi improved 

Or U think control of Ms is the same as just having a sharingan  

Worse he even said Kakashi improved with kamui 

I don't need to show you anything . Uve asserted some BS Kishi didn't include in his Manga. It's like assuming onoki Jinton when he was younger couldn't do what it does when he was shown in the manga

There is something called reaching rhe peak of your ability 

Yh you Live in ur fan fic
If A got faster would have been mentioned . It wasn't therefore he didn't become any faster 

Any improvement in the manga is annoyingly emphasized so even the slow readers can get it .


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## StarWanderer (May 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Actually he did state kakahshi improved
> 
> Or U think control of Ms is the same as just having a sharingan
> 
> ...



Give me at least 1 scan from early Manga chapters where Kishimototo says Kakashi improved his skills from the time when he was a kid. Will you say that Jonin Kakashi from early manga chapters, with 1 sharingan, is at the same level as kid Kakashi who killed Rin? 

I can assume that Onoki, when he was a kid, or a teenager, couldnt use a Jinton. You have nothing to put young teenager Ei and Raikage Ei at the same tier. There was a huge time gap of 17 years and there is nothing to suggest Ei stayed the same. Young Ei never demonstrated that kind of speed, that kind of durability and that kind of chakra level yet you are saying that he is as good as 17 years older Raikage. Hell, can you show me where young Ei's chakra cloak was as thick as that of Raikage Ei when he attacked KCM Naruto, for example? 

Young Ei is not at Raikage Ei's level until you can provide proofs. Thats simple.


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2015)

Probably not the same level but hardly any difference to warrant Kishi mentioning it 
Though kid Kakashi could only use raikiri twice 
By the time he was an adult he could use it 4 times . That's Kishi telling you his skill has improved 


Muu died when onoki was a teenager so did gengetsu they both knew onoki could use jinton. Try again . Now do u got something to suggest kid onoki Jinton was weaker Cuz he was younger ?

You go on with ur fan fic young A speed is the same . Since the Manga didn't suggest otherwise 

When there is improvement its always mentioned 
Sasuke , itachi , deidara , naruto etc 

A fought many times over the years , not like minato died right after that encounter . 

I got one for u from kid Kakashi to part 1. A decade goes by Kakashi doesn't make a significant improvement 
By time skip he a Kamui spammer who can use raikiri with no number limit 

Please ! They improve as Kishi wills it . Not Cuz decades have gone by one should assume improvement 

Otherwise any ninja who is older would automatically be stronger than the younger ones


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## StarWanderer (May 16, 2015)

> Probably not the same level but hardly any difference to warrant Kishi mentioning it
> Though kid Kakashi could only use raikiri twice
> By the time he was an adult he could use it 4 times . That's Kishi telling you his skill has improved



Not the same level at all. A kid and a jonin with a lot more experience. *And feats*.

Young Ei never displayed tailed beast level chakra, Raikage Ei displayed tailed beast level chakra. Young Ei is featless. Raikage Ei has lots of feats. That's Kishi telling you Ei's skill has improved.



> Muu died when onoki was a teenager so did gengetsu they both knew onoki could use jinton. Try again . Now do u got something to suggest kid onoki Jinton was weaker Cuz he was younger ?
> 
> You go on with ur fan fic young A speed is the same . Since the Manga didn't suggest otherwise



Kid Onoki has no feats with Jinton at all. 

You are going with your fanfic unless you can provide feats for young Ei comparable to those of Raikage Ei.



> When there is improvement its always mentioned
> Sasuke , itachi , deidara , naruto etc
> 
> A fought many times over the years , not like minato died right after that encounter .



It is logical that young Ei is not as good as Raikage Ei. They are different in terms of chakra mastery and thus, Shunshin. 

And yes, Ei fought Minato many times over the years, when he was young. There is a 17 years gap between young Ei and Raikage Ei.



> I got one for u from kid Kakashi to part 1. A decade goes by Kakashi doesn't make a significant improvement
> By time skip he a Kamui spammer who can use raikiri with no number limit



It doesnt matter for you that adult Kakashi has better feats and that he is a jonin, with lots of experience.



> Please ! They improve as Kishi wills it . Not Cuz decades have gone by one should assume improvement
> 
> Otherwise any ninja who is older would automatically be stronger than the younger ones



Wrong. And i am still waiting for young Ei's feats.


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2015)

Argue with urself till you can show me a scan of Kishi saying A got faster 
Despite him referring to minato dodging his fastest punch 
 

Aimless rant


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## UchihaX28 (May 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Argue with urself till you can show me a scan of Kishi saying A got faster
> Despite him referring to minato dodging his fastest punch
> 
> 
> Aimless rant



 He never said greatest Shunshin or fastest speed.


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## StarWanderer (May 17, 2015)

> Argue with urself till you can show me a scan of Kishi saying A got faster



*Feats, dude. Its all about feats*. Concession accepted. 



> Despite him referring to minato dodging his fastest punch



Well, he did in fact dodged his, at that moment, fastest punch. So what?


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> He never said greatest Shunshin or fastest speed.



Ok so his fastest punch requires what then ?
That he walk to minato and punch him ?


Fodder anbu got less feats than genin naruto I take it genin naruto is much stronger then 
 

Baki got less feats than kankuro I take it baki is weaker then  

A got no feats in any version to say he doesn't get 1 paneled by minato .


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> A got no feats in any version to say he doesn't get 1 paneled by minato .



   

Base Minato cant one-panel Raikage Ei. A fight with Raikage Ei would have been a lot harder for Minato then a fight with teenager Ei.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

A doesn't seem to think so but ok 
I think everyone on this thread has already told you that.


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> A doesn't seem to think so but ok
> I think everyone on this thread has already told you that.



Do you remember what *exactly* Ei said?


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

yes 
minato is impossible to defeat
and he is the fastest since minato is no longer around

did he say anything else that implies minato isn't >>him?


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> minato is impossible to defeat



Scan please.



> and he is the fastest since minato is no longer around



Yeah, because if he was still alive, he would have been the fastest. Because he would have passed 17 years of training and improving his skills, just as Ei did.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

scan that A implied further training is what would have made minato still faster

go on ill wait 

you are trolling here



A made a simple statement minato is faster than me. that's an obvious fool proof statement. why minato got hirashin. the DB even says it RCM mode was able to keep up with KCM however the speed of the yellow flash was simply too much


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> scan that A implied further training is what would have made minato still faster
> 
> go on ill wait
> 
> ...



He said that he thought that Minato would never be surpassed and that he is the fastest shinobi, now that Minato has passed away. Meaning that if Minato was still alive, he would be the fastest. But if he was alive, he would have 17 years older, more experienced, trained etc. 

Give me that Databook statemtn. You speak about Databook statements so much, yet you never bring here anything. And i am talking not just about this thread.

Raikage Ei will be a lot harder for Minato to beat. 

ANd in a race battle, Ei wins.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

again you cant prove that if minato trained he would have gotten any faster or better at using hirashin 
there is something such as peaking. or reaching ur best potential at using a jutsu. itachi 30 years down the line wont suddenly get better at using amaterasu, notice how quickly sasuke learned to use it. well said jutsu isn't going to get better just because time passes. 

minato had moved on from that he was trying to learn FRS. but didn't have the chakra for it

in a speed battle A would always loose and always did. he admitted this. its fan fic to assume A was talking about a fictional minato 17 years down the line. when he has no way of knowing if its possible for minato to even improve an already perfect technique

same for your assumption of obito kamui getting faster despite the author never mentioning such 

if it isn't stated its fan fic! when kishi wants people to know a jutsu has been improved he clearly states it. he tailored his manga to 12 year olds you know


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> again you cant prove that if minato trained he would have gotten any faster or better at using hirashin
> there is something such as peaking. or reaching ur best potential at using a jutsu. itachi 30 years down the line wont suddenly get better at using amaterasu, notice how quickly sasuke learned to use it. well said jutsu isn't going to get better just because time passes.
> 
> minato had moved on from that he was trying to learn FRS. but didn't have the chakra for it
> ...



Obito himself got a lot faster. 

And Minato could improve his physical stats, train more, get experience etc. Its not about his jutsu mastery - its all about his own reaction speed and movement speed.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

prove obito got faster
where are your manga statements to that effect

can you prove minato wasn't already at the peak of his speed and reactions? you assume a ninja can just keep improving willy-nilly which isn't at all implied in the manga 

chiyo for years knew of sasori ability to create human puppets, despite being more experienced and by far she said only sasori could do it. 

why didn't her better training or years of experience give her the ability to do that

speeding up kamui is fan fic at its best. its like saying sasuke amaterasu got faster as he got more experienced which is BS. he could use it better and gather chakra quicker sure. but the jutsu itself nope. same old black fire

characters improve by the will of kishi not because time has passed. 

your flaw is assuming simply because 17 years go by A or minato must improve. this is entirely BS. that implies minato keep training the same way, doesn't get fat due to peace etc. too many variables


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> prove obito got faster



At the time of a fight with Minato, Obito didnt have lots of great feats. He was an unexperienced teenager. 17 years later, he demonstrates feats that puts him in a speed tier far higher then most of characters. Obito improved since that fight, a lot.



> can you prove minato wasn't already at the peak of his speed and reactions? you assume a ninja can just keep improving willy-nilly which isn't at all implied in the manga



We dont realy know if he was, or wasnt at his peak. But Minato was very young at that moment.



> speeding up kamui is fan fic at its best.



I am talking about Obito's own reaction speed and movement speed.



> your flaw is assuming simply because 17 years go by A or minato must improve. this is entirely BS. that implies minato keep training the same way, doesn't get fat due to peace etc. too many variables



Minato could train more, learn more about controlling his chakra, train his Sage Mode etc. Do you realy think that during 17 years, Ei and Obito did nothing at all?


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

so in short no character statement, just assumptions 
so I take it part 1 asuma is an entirely different character than part 2 asuma u know seeing that part 2 asuma has much better feats 

or that part 2 gai is high kage tier while part 1 kage isn't right. despite them being the same character with no implied improvement.  

so again no proof what so ever about minato being able to improve or not being at his peak ok. 
this is fun 

no proof obito improved at all since his fight with minato. he had no reason to improve. he cant even be hit bar using ST or team work. why would such a guy improve 

minato could have already done all those things and been at his peak. so again nothing to show he could have gotten better. 

obito and A again would have no reason to improve since they were already at the top of their field. A was the fastest if not for minato and obito cant be hit bar using ST. what reason would such people have to improve

people improve because they need to not for the lolz.


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