# team 7 vs the sannin



## richard lewis (Sep 7, 2013)

sannin - hiruzen, Oro, tsunade, jiraiya
team 7 - kakashi, sasuke, naruto, sakura

Location - gokage vs madara
Knowledge - reputation
Restrictions - naruto can't use any of kurama's chakra "he can still communicate with him", sasuke has MS on the lvl it was against danzo, kakashi can only use kamui on the lvl it was at during the start of part 2 against dedaria. ET is restricted


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## Veracity (Sep 7, 2013)

Sannin take this. Tsunade can solo Sakura without much effort, and Katsuyu will obviously aid with the Slug Princess.

Oro with the aid of Edo Tensai shouldn't have much trouble with Sasuke.

Then that leaves SM Naruto vs SM Jirayia, which Naruto wins more times then not. But with the aid of the other 2 Sannin,  Naruto gets bent over.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 7, 2013)

Orochi can solo this match up with Edo Tensei.


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## richard lewis (Sep 7, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Sannin take this. Tsunade can solo Sakura without much effort, and Katsuyu will obviously aid with the Slug Princess.
> 
> Oro with the aid of Edo Tensai shouldn't have much trouble with Sasuke.
> 
> Then that leaves SM Naruto vs SM Jirayia, which Naruto wins more times then not. But with the aid of the other 2 Sannin,  Naruto gets bent over.



Sorry forgot to restrict ET..... but yea ET is restricted.

I think kakashi can take hiruzen high diff

Also jiraiya starts in base, it will take a while for him to enter SM , where as naruto can do so near instant.

It should also be noted that jiraiya, tsunade, and hiruzen have no solid counter to amaterasu, or kamui for that matter.

I think team 7 wins high diff


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 7, 2013)

First off, what's the mindset? Depending in this factor, the match could swing either way. And also, do Naruto and Jiraiya commence the match with Sage Mode already prepared?


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## richard lewis (Sep 7, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> First off, what's the mindset? Depending in this factor, the match could swing either way. And also, do Naruto and Jiraiya commence the match with Sage Mode already prepared?



Everyone starts in base, mind set is IC but they want to kill their opponents


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## Veracity (Sep 7, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> Sorry forgot to restrict ET..... but yea ET is restricted.
> 
> I think kakashi can take hiruzen high diff
> 
> ...



I forgot about Hiruzen and Kakashi lol.
And sense you restricted Edo-Tensai then Oro would lose to Sasuke.

And they have counters to AMA, as well as this version of Kamui being close to useless.

But now Team 7 wins.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 7, 2013)

Kakashi destroys Hiruzen. The only thing Hiruzen has that can win it is _Shiki Fuijin_, and Kakashi will end it too quickly for Hiruzen.

_Sennin Mode_ Naruto is stronger than Jiraiya, but he will have difficulty beating his former teacher.

_Mangekyō Sharingan Sauce_ should end Orochimaru with _Ametarasu and Susanoo_.

The only member of Team 7 that can't beat their Sannin counterpart is Sakura, and by that time she should have at least Kakashi to back her up.

Team 7 wins.


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## richard lewis (Sep 7, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I forgot about Hiruzen and Kakashi lol.
> And sense you restricted Edo-Tensai then Oro would lose to Sasuke.
> 
> And they have counters to AMA, as well as this version of Kamui being close to useless.
> ...



How does tsunade counter amaterasu? And how is kamui useless? Even while on tob of his bird dedaria still lost an arm . No one on team sannin has speed feats to suggest they are any faster than dedaria "except SM jiraiya, but he starts in base".


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 7, 2013)

Team seven should win more times then not now. Each person on team seven that was trained by a Sannin can deal with their Sannin teacher for a while, while Kakashi can deal with Hiruzen. Naruto could beat Jiraiya, Sasuke could beat Orochi, Kakashi could beat Hiruzen while Sakura can deal with Tsunade for a while and get help to take her out. 



richard lewis said:


> And how is kamui useless?



More or less due to how long it takes to get it off, it might as well be.



> Even while on tob of his bird dedaria still lost an arm .No one on team sannin has speed feats to suggest they are any faster than dedaria "except SM jiraiya, but he starts in base".



It took several pages for such to happen as well as Deidara not trying to attack or make Kakashi lose focus. On the other hand any member of team Hiruzen can/will attack Kakashi and unless they stand still or move in a straight line, chances of Kamui hitting is very low.


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## richard lewis (Sep 7, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Kakashi destroys Hiruzen. The only thing Hiruzen has that can win it is _Shiki Fuijin_, and Kakashi will end it too quickly for Hiruzen.
> 
> _Sennin Mode_ Naruto is stronger than Jiraiya, but he will have difficulty beating his former teacher.
> 
> ...



How does ammy or susanoo put oro down? he can just oral rebirth from those


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## Octavian (Sep 7, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> It took several pages for such to happen as well as Deidara not trying to attack or make Kakashi lose focus. On the other hand any member of team Hiruzen can/will attack Kakashi and unless they stand still or move in a straight line, chances of Kamui hitting is very low.




Take a look at Kakashi, Naruto and Co. vs Tobi for some of Kakashi's recent and much more impressive feats with Kamui...


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 7, 2013)

SM Naruto (Kage Summit) can get off Sage Mode fairly quickly.

 Sasuke's MS will be a big help against Tsunade as he protects himself with an Amaterasu Susanoo shield and burn Tsunade. This pressures her to waste extra chakra from Byakugou (spelling)? Not only that, he can use Susanoo arrow and Tsunade doesn't have the speed to dodge it. SM Kabuto didn't even dodge it and only managed to by using liquefying technique and Susanoo arrow is as fast as BM Naruto's Rasenshuriken or at the very least as fast as SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken at this point, so Tsunade isn't getting through Sasuke IMO.

 Orochimaru will actually be tricky because his toxins can practically immobilze every one of them. Frog Song may be of some use against Oro here, but Orochimaru also is able to defensively use snakes, but at this point, if he's not healthy and was like he was against KN4 Naruto, SM Naruto should take this pretty easily, but ....

 Jiraiya stomps Sakura, so Sakura is practically out of the picture. She should only be used as support. Afterwards, he's most likely going to for Naruto since he knows his abilities the most. Naruto is definitely able to use multiple shadow clones to pressure him esp. with Big Ball Rasengan, but Oro also has the jutsu to summon massive walls (not sure what the jutsu is called), so he blocks Rasenshuriken and all those Rasengans as KN4 couldn't even dent the wall.

 Kakashi could beat Hiruzen, but I have doubts since a Healthy Oro struggled with the usage of Edo Tensei.

 Overall, I think Team 7 loses. Even if Tsunade loses, SM Naruto would likely lose against SM Jiraiya along with Oro's intoxication and defenses to exhaust Naruto. That leaves Kakashi and Sakura getting stomped.

 ^ This is assuming Beginning of Part 2 Kakashi where he's not anything special and has low stamina with Kamui.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 7, 2013)

Octavian said:


> Take a look at Kakashi, Naruto and Co. vs Tobi for some of Kakashi's recent and much more impressive feats with Kamui...



Take a look at the OP which says "kakashi can only use kamui on the lvl it was at during the start of part 2 against dedaria"...

Edit: Darn you Darkmaiar, you speed blitzed me


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 7, 2013)

^ I'm confused whether Kakashi retains his current feats minus Kamui or he's reverted back to where he was at the beginning of Part 2.


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## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> Take a look at the OP which says "kakashi can only use kamui on the lvl it was at during the start of part 2 against dedaria"...
> 
> Edit: Darn you Darkmaiar, you speed blitzed me



Lol . Don't worry I gave it to you.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2013)

Sakura and Tsunade both serve the same niche. Katsuya and healing. Tsunade is more durable, but that is definitely counterbalanced by the superior offensive force that Team 7 possessed in the form of devastating dōjutsu.

Particularly, Sasuke's Susano'o arrows. Even Kakashi couldn't budge an inch against them, meaning that the Sannin are going to be throwing up defenses to prevent being pinned down. I think they'll be able to, but they'll definitely be on the defensive at first. 

The next huge factor is the two sages. Naruto can access Sage Mode _much_ faster, almost instantly, but it takes Jiriaya several minutes. Once in Sage Mode, Naruto can practically dominate the battle with the raw power of clones, frog katas, and giant Rasengans.

The Sannin summons, which are already mirrored by Team 7's summons, are only going to be slapped down by sage strength, and the Sannin will be left without their key defenses. This will open them up to being picked off by Sasuke and Kakashi's dōjutsu

Amaterasu isn't something that can be healed by Tsunade because it can't be extinguished. The only exception is Oral Rebirth if and only if Orochimaru's mouth isn't on fire, as that would spread the flame to the new body. However, Sasuke has knowledge of that counter.

Moreover, it's a canonical tendency for Sasuke and Naruto to combine Amaterasu with the Rasenshuriken to create an unholy inferno. That alone would turn te tides, and it can be achieved very early on due to Naruto's quick access to Sage Mode.​


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## Octavian (Sep 7, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> Take a look at the OP which says "kakashi can only use kamui on the lvl it was at during the start of part 2 against dedaria"...
> 
> Edit: Darn you Darkmaiar, you speed blitzed me



well played, you two 

regardless, i think even with a gimped kamui, kakashi can defeat hiruzen based on his performance vs deva path


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## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2013)

Octavian said:


> regardless, i think even with a gimped kamui, kakashi can defeat hiruzen based on his performance vs deva path



I'd say base Kakashi would definitely dominate old Hiruzen in a one on one battle. He has large speed, ninjutsu arsenal, and stamina advantages while Hiruzen retains only a small (0.5 tier) taijutsu advantage that is entirely nullified by Sharingan precognition.​


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## Veracity (Sep 7, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> How does tsunade counter amaterasu? And how is kamui useless? Even while on tob of his bird dedaria still lost an arm . No one on team sannin has speed feats to suggest they are any faster than dedaria "except SM jiraiya, but he starts in base".



Her only mean of counter is via Katsuyu, but both Jirayia and Oro have more then one way to counter Amaterasu and seeing as there all a team they can help eachother. 

And Tsunade has faster speed then Deidara considering she kept pace with Onnoki while covering a larger distance. So I don't see why the other Sannin wouldn't, in base their all pretty much equal in speed. 

But then again, I forgot about Kakashi vs Hiruzen in which Kakashi slaughters him by feats. And Sasuke slaughters Oro. So team 7 wins.

But if you give Oro limited Edo Tensai, and take out Kakashi and Hiruzen, then this is a very close battle.


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## Tsunami (Sep 7, 2013)

Sannin Wins.

Hiruzen vs Kakashi - Hiruzen wins high diff maybe
Tsunade vs Sakura - Tsunade with ease
Naruto vs Jiraiya I'd say tie
Sasuke vs Oro - Oro mid to high diff


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## trance (Sep 7, 2013)

Lol at Hiruzen beating Kakashi.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 7, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> Lol at Hiruzen beating Kakashi.



 I was assuming that this was Beginning of Part 2 Kakashi and the fact that Hiruzen managed to fight very well against a Healthy Orochimaru which Kakashi at this point was far inferior.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 7, 2013)

Tsunami said:


> Sannin Wins.
> 
> Hiruzen vs Kakashi - Hiruzen wins high diff maybe
> Tsunade vs Sakura - Tsunade with ease
> ...



Hiruzen isn't beating Kakashi lol


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## richard lewis (Sep 7, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> I was assuming that this was Beginning of Part 2 Kakashi and the fact that Hiruzen managed to fight very well against a Healthy Orochimaru which Kakashi at this point was far inferior.



no this is current kakashi with a weaker kamui


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 7, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> How does ammy or susanoo put oro down? he can just oral rebirth from those



Susanoo and Ametarasu keep Orochimaru away, and Sasuke can use Genjutsu to incapicate him.


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## Rocky (Sep 7, 2013)

Solution to Oral Rebirth: Target the mouth.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 7, 2013)

What has Hiruzen shown that beats Kakashi? Because Shadow Shuriken can totally kill a master of the Mangekyō.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Solution to Oral Rebirth: Target the mouth.



You gotta purty mouth.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 7, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> no this is current kakashi with a weaker kamui



 Hmm, looks like I shall edit my post.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Naruto can access Sage Mode _much_ faster, almost instantly, but it takes Jiriaya several minutes.​



Naruto can still access it a lot faster but I don't think Jiraiya getting into Sage Mode is quite _as_ prep extensive as a lot of us seem to think _when he is left undisturbed_.

There is a requirement to remain _perfectly still_ in order to draw in natural energy, something that could be very challenging to achieve in the midst of being attacked given that you'd need to find an opportunity to stop everything you're doing and divert all your focus to remaining perfectly motionless (not moving so much as a millimeter).

Because the toad is an enormous klutz, Jiraiya failed to keep from tripping up on a Gamaken that had yet to attack. Following this, Jiraiya was constantly in motion while attempting to attain Sage Mode as Gamaken fended off incoming summons. As a result, Gamaken would have been giving him _quite a bumpy ride_ and disallowing him to remain perfectly still because the surface he was standing on was constantly being rattled up by giants.

It wasn't until Gamaken stopped completely (was lying down after being struck) and then left whilst a boss bull was charging at Jiraiya that the Toad Sannin was able to remain still to achieve Sage Mode, which he pulled off in a mere moment after being slammed into the pipes.

So I'm thinking somewhere between Jiraiya's mystery pondering here _(1)_, and Nagato's observing here _(2)_ he attained it. It wouldn't be easy finding that window of opportunity in a battle against another high caliber ninja (it wasn't in that case), but I don't think that's _"several minutes"_ either.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 7, 2013)

Let me guess _FlamingRain_, you think the Sannin win.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 7, 2013)

No.

Unfortunately.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 7, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> No.
> 
> Unfortunately.



I'm kind of sad to hear that.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 7, 2013)

*seriously considers making an argument for the Sannin*


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> *seriously considers making an argument for the Sannin*



Your biggest problem is Kakashi vs Hiruzen. Kakashi can finish off Hiruzen before anyone else is done with their battle, thus giving his fighting strength to another member of team 7, Sakura more than likely, as she cannot beat her opponent.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 8, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Your biggest problem is Kakashi vs Hiruzen. Kakashi can finish off Hiruzen before anyone else is done with their battle, thus giving his fighting strength to another member of team 7, Sakura more than likely, as she cannot beat her opponent.



This is exactly why I'm having a hard time right now.


I might be back later.


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## Veracity (Sep 8, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Your biggest problem is Kakashi vs Hiruzen. Kakashi can finish off Hiruzen before anyone else is done with their battle, thus giving his fighting strength to another member of team 7, Sakura more than likely, as she cannot beat her opponent.



I disagree. I think Tsunade can finish of Sakura far before Kakashi can finish of Hiruzen. Sakura has virtually no impressive speed feats, no impressive durabilty feats, and isn't even close to a taijustu master. & to top of it, she has absolutely no hype. Atleast Hiruzen has hype and almost equals Kakashi in taijustu skill. 

Tsunade would have wasted close to zero of her already amazing chakra. While Kakashi Would have atleast used lighting blade to finish off Hiruzen and probably a Suiton to counter Hiruzens Katon. And if Kakashi has his haxed Kamui, then he finishes off Tsunade. If not, he loses.


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## 640Naruto640 (Sep 8, 2013)

With all those restrictions on Team 7, the Sannin easily takes this no-difficulty


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I disagree. I think Tsunade can finish of Sakura far before Kakashi can finish of Hiruzen. Sakura has virtually no impressive speed feats, no impressive durabilty feats, and isn't even close to a taijustu master. & to top of it, she has absolutely no hype. Atleast Hiruzen has hype and almost equals Kakashi in taijustu skill.
> 
> Tsunade would have wasted close to zero of her already amazing chakra. While Kakashi Would have atleast used lighting blade to finish off Hiruzen and probably a Suiton to counter Hiruzens Katon. And if Kakashi has his haxed Kamui, then he finishes off Tsunade. If not, he loses.



If Sakura's _Byakugō_ works just like Tsunade's, it could likely regenerate from Tsunade's punch.

And a _Raikiri_ should be nothing to Kakashi with his new stamina feats, nor should Suiton.


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

I really don't think there is any argument for the Sannin.


In the Naruto & Jiraiya match-up, Naruto's ability to enter Sage Mode so quickly brings the guillotine down on Jiraiya's chances. In Base, it' rather even. Both of them summon, and both rely on Rasengan for any major offensive attack. Jiraiya can counter Clone spam with hair manipulation, and physically I doubt there's much a difference anymore. So, obviously, Naruto going into Sage Mode allows him to overpower Jiraiya, and that delay it takes for Jiraiya to enter Sage Mode himself is his downfall.

Sasuke against Orochimaru is a massacre. Orochimaru can do _nothing_ to Susano'o. Sasuke doesn't have to camp either. He can flash activate it to protect against any of Orochimaru's techniques. He doesn't really have anything Sasuke cannot react to. Sasuke wraps this up by targeting the mouth with Amaterasu. Trying to Oral Rebirth out of a flaming face isn't going to bode well.

Saukra vs. Tsunade is self explanatory. Tsunade wins because of Byakugo. Sakura is also less skilled, less physically capable, and much, much less intelligent. 

Finally, Hiruzen literally holds no advantage over Kakashi in any category. He is worse in all physical areas, less tactically smart, and about equal in Ninjutsu proficiency. The Sharingan mitigates, or even completely nullifies any Taijutsu or Genjutsu advantages, and the Mangekyou, while nerfed here, still gives Kakashi another edge. Hiruzen with his Shadow Shuriken & Monkey staff get to go up against Kakashi's legendary Dojutsu & Clone maneuvers capable of creating openings against High-Tiers Dojutsu users. 

_______

Even the teamwork of the Sannin should be no greater than that of team 7. Sure, Team Hiruzen has been together longer, but Sasuke & Naruto have already demonstrated devastating combinations with their respective Jutsu.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 8, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> If Sakura's _Byakugō_ works just like Tsunade's, it could likely regenerate from Tsunade's punch.



As far as we know, Sakura only has access to the _Byakugō no In_, the seal to store up all of her chakra. _Byakugō no Jutsu_, the perfected form of _Sōzō Saisei_, is another technique entirely.


While I do like to think that Sakura has access to the regeneration jutsu as well, it can't recover from death even if she does, and Sakura doesn't have the abnormal resilience of a _Senju/Uzumaki_ body to survive those wounds that would normally kill immediately. Tsunade's punch would _kill her virtually on impact_ like it did/would have Madara.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> As far as we know, Sakura only has access to the _Byakugō no In_, the seal to store up all of her chakra. _Byakugō no Jutsu_, the perfected form of _Sōzō Saisei_, is another technique entirely.
> 
> 
> While I do like to think that Sakura has access to the regeneration jutsu as well, it can't recover from death even if she does, and Sakura doesn't have the abnormal resilience of a _Senju/Uzumaki_ body to survive those wounds that would normally kill immediately. Tsunade's punch would _kill her virtually on impact_ like it did/would have Madara.



I still think she would last longer than Hiruzen would against Kakashi.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 8, 2013)

Holy crap, I totally didn't read OP carefully, so I guess this includes current Sakura.

 Good god, I have to type my opinion again.


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## Veracity (Sep 8, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> I still think she would last longer than Hiruzen would against Kakashi.



And that's an opinion you base off of literally nothing. Hiruzen could stay back and keep Kakashi away while playing defense. He could last a good while against Kakashi with the taijustu skill he possesses with his Monkey Staff on top of his long ranges abilities. Whether you like it or not, Kakashi isn't going to immediately one shot Hiruzen. He actually lacks the skill. He does win fairly easy however.

On the other hand, Sakura ONLY has taijustu, so she's forced to engage in CQC. When this happens, she immediately gets a fist rammed completely rammed through her body. She stands 0 chance.


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## Kai (Sep 8, 2013)

Naruto and Sasuke's FRS Enton combination attack will absolutely devastate the Sannin, even if they join together.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> On the other hand, Sakura ONLY has taijustu, so she's forced to engage in CQC. When this happens, she immediately gets a fist rammed completely rammed through her body. She stands 0 chance.



Sakura could stay away from Tsunade as well until help came arrives, she doesn't have to run guns ablazing into a fight.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 8, 2013)

Due to the fact that Katsuyu, Gamabunta/Gamakichi, and Manda can be summoned by *either* side in this battle, I'm going to leave this factor out of the battle, as it's largely irrelevant.

I believe Team 7 easily takes this, even without the usage of the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan or access to the Nine-Tails' chakra. Though Sakura may be the only member inferior to her predecessor (equal physical strength, but her durability is noticeably average and the lack of a mitotic regenerative technique essentially renders her capable of being downed with one hit by any of her opponents), the _overwhelming _offenses of the rest of the team make this undoubtedly a victory for the new generation.

First off: *Naruto vs. Jiraiya*. As seen from the latter's confrontation with Pain, Jiraiya takes a considerably longer period of time to prepare his Sage Mode and summon the Two Great Sage Toads, whereas Naruto can seemingly activate the technique within a few moments, due to his superior skill. Once Naruto is ready, it will take speed equal to that of the Third Raikage for Base Jiraiya to outrun his student; something I sincerely doubt the Sannin has, which means Naruto won't give him any time and simply proceed to smash his face in with a punch.

*Orochimaru vs. Sasuke:* with the mindset being that of intent-to-kill, Sasuke will most definitely open up with a usually-guaranteed one-hit-kill technique: Amaterasu. Though Orochimaru can initially evade its fatal effects with the usage of Oral Rebirth, Sasuke will have observed the Sannin's method of escape, and finalize the latter's death by targeting the face, or the mouth. It doesn't help his predecessor's case that he has absolutely no offensive technique capable of penetrating the defenses of Sasuke's Susano'o. Even his most powerful summon, the Eight-Headed Summon, is futile in the face of Sasuke's Susano'o arrows, which have proven to be fast enough to nearly blitz Kakashi, who himself is proficient with the Sharingan.

*Kakashi vs. Hiruzen:* should there be any debate for this? Pertaining strictly to feats, Hiruzen's track record has been demonstrably less impressive than standard Kage-level shinobi, whereas his current opponent is a master of a technique that has, to this day, never failed (outside of Obito). Without knowledge, the Third Hokage has his head ripped off, as he valiantly attempts to charge Kakashi.

And should any of the above not be feasible, Naruto can end the entire conflict with this technique. The former Team 7 is thereby reduced to a pile of pulverized dust.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> And that's an opinion you base off of literally nothing. Hiruzen could stay back and keep Kakashi away while playing defense. He could last a good while against Kakashi with the taijustu skill he possesses with his Monkey Staff on top of his long ranges abilities. Whether you like it or not, Kakashi isn't going to immediately one shot Hiruzen. He actually lacks the skill. He does win fairly easy however.
> 
> On the other hand, Sakura ONLY has taijustu, so she's forced to engage in CQC. When this happens, she immediately gets a fist rammed completely rammed through her body. She stands 0 chance.



Useless as Sakura is, she isn't stupid. She should know she is outmatched by her teacher, an should play it very defensive until Kakashi arrives, which then her and Kakashi go on the offensive.


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## Veracity (Sep 8, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Useless as Sakura is, she isn't stupid. She should know she is outmatched by her teacher, an should play it very defensive until Kakashi arrives, which then her and Kakashi go on the offensive.



She can't do that. That's the thing. She's outmatched in movement speed, reactions, durabilty, intelligence, range, resilience, and versatility. 

She has no ranged attacks to keep Tsunade away, and doesn't have the movement speed necessary to run away. She's completely screwed and outmatched.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 8, 2013)

Kai said:


> Naruto and Sasuke's FRS Enton combination attack will absolutely devastate the Sannin, even if they join together.



 Didn't think of that.

 May work unless Orochimaru can release his toxins in time before they shoot off an FRS.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> She can't do that. That's the thing. She's outmatched in movement speed, reactions, durabilty, intelligence, range, resilience, and versatility.
> 
> She has no ranged attacks to keep Tsunade away, and doesn't have the movement speed necessary to run away. She's completely screwed and outmatched.



Sakura hit some Jubbi fodder with her strength after release the seal, send it flying and keep pace with it. Sakura has enough power to do this in one punch as well. To punch something with that strength and send it flying that far and keep up with it is a good movement speed for Sakura. I don't think Tsunade has shown anything that great in just movement speed to suggest she would be too much for Sakura.

Also if you look at the second link I posted, it shows the AoE that Sakura can do in one punch which has quite a bit of range which can help keep Tsunade back.


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## trance (Sep 8, 2013)

By the time Tsunade finishes Sakura, Naruto should be done with Jiraiya...Tsunade then gets obliterated by a FRS...


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> She can't do that. That's the thing. She's outmatched in movement speed, reactions, durabilty, intelligence, range, resilience, and versatility.
> 
> She has no ranged attacks to keep Tsunade away, and doesn't have the movement speed necessary to run away. She's completely screwed and outmatched.



I don't see Sakura, as _that_ far behind her teacher. She can at least defend herself for a time. Whether or not that time is faster or longer than the time it takes Kakashi to kill Hiruzen is up for interpretation.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 8, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> To punch something with that strength and send it flying that far and keep up with it is a good movement speed for Sakura.



The Juubling she hit was repeatedly colliding with the surrounding Juublings. It would have been _slowing down_ with each collision, so I'm not sure that thing was going particularly fast by the time she caught up to it.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The Juubling she hit was repeatedly colliding with the surrounding Juublings. It would have been _slowing down_ with each collision, so I'm not sure that thing was going particularly fast by the time she caught up to it.



It seem to possible collide with five or six other Juubi fodder which I doubt slowed it down much but with her chakra that she's using along with her chakra control, her movement speed should still be up the.


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## Veracity (Sep 8, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> Sakura hit some Jubbi fodder with her strength after release the seal, send it flying and keep pace with it. Sakura has enough power to do this in one punch as well. To punch something with that strength and send it flying that far and keep up with it is a good movement speed for Sakura. I don't think Tsunade has shown anything that great in just movement speed to suggest she would be too much for Sakura.
> 
> Also if you look at the second link I posted, it shows the AoE that Sakura can do in one punch which has quite a bit of range which can help keep Tsunade back.



I read the manga. I know what she did.  But she has no reason to randomly hit the ground, and even she did, there no reason to believe Tsunade can't just charge through the debris.  And keeping up with Juubi FODDER isn't impressive seeing as all of the Konoha 12 were doing so. While Tsunase has superior movement speed to Flying Deidara/Onnoki and evenly matched v1 Ay. Sakura has nothing on Tsunade.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I read the manga. I know what she did.  But she has no reason to randomly hit the ground, and even she did, there no reason to believe Tsunade can't just charge through the debris.



She's going against her teacher and she's trying to keep some distance between the two of them. I fail to see why she has no reason to "random hit the ground" if said method can help her keep some distance.




> And keeping up with Juubi FODDER isn't impressive seeing as *all of the Konoha 12 were doing so.*



So can you show me where any of the other K12 ninja keeping up with a Juubi fodder moving fast like the one Sakura did with?



> While Tsunase has superior movement speed to Flying Deidara/Onnoki and evenly matched v1 Ay. Sakura has nothing on Tsunade.



When did Tsunade show movement speed better then a flying Deidara as well as being on par with  V1 A?


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## Veracity (Sep 8, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> She's going against her teacher and she's trying to keep some distance between the two of them. I fail to see why she has no reason to "random hit the ground" if said method can help her keep some distance.
> 
> 
> Fair enough. Tsunade still runs through the attack and one shots Sakura.
> ...



She equaled Ay here:this
And here she started from a greater distance and caught up to Ay and Onoki:this
Notice that in the top panel you can clearly see Onnoki and Ay, with Tsunade absolutely nowhere in sight, but by the next panels, her and Ay connect at the same time.


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## trance (Sep 8, 2013)

Likes boss

In that first scan, her attacking speed is equal to Ei's not her movement speed.

And in that second scan, that was flying V1 Ei, not speeding V2 Ei...Onōki was granting him flight.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I'm not gonna waste my time. Their Juubi FODDER. They have no impressive feats were made to serve as an army. It's like killing Zetsu clones and calling it impressive.



The fact that it's Jubbi fodder doesn't matter which you seem to have a hard on for when you ignore this. She punched it, sent it flying and kept up with it, that's what could be considered "impressive". The Fodder wasn't wasn't moving on his own or anything, he is just the vessel to show case her feat, don't dismiss it just because it was fodder.



> She equaled Ay here:this



No she didn't. They had both just used Mabui Tensō which teleported them both to that spot and A wasn't even in V1 in the link lol. That doesn't show that her movement speed equals A's V1 speed.



> And here she started from a greater distance and caught up to Ay and Onoki:this
> Notice that in the top panel you can clearly see Onnoki and Ay, with Tsunade absolutely nowhere in sight, but by the next panels, her and Ay connect at the same time.



Tsunade had a total of six panels to get there as well as her catching up to A and Onoki that moved towards her direction doesn't suggest that she is faster then Onoki's+Deidara's flying speed.


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## Veracity (Sep 8, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> The fact that it's Jubbi fodder doesn't matter which you seem to have a hard on for when you ignore this. She punched it, sent it flying and kept up with it, that's what could be considered "impressive". The Fodder wasn't wasn't moving on his own or anything, he is just the vessel to show case her feat, don't dismiss it just because it was fodder.
> Okay? Nothing more impressive them what Tsunade has been doing.
> 
> 
> ...


x


You seem to not understand that Tsunade was no where in sight a panel ago, and then on the next panel she strikes the same time. If she wasn't in sight, then she was a farther distance obviously. Her having extra panels doesn't contribute to anything, because it already shows Ay and Onnoki's distance relative to Tsunades.


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## trance (Sep 8, 2013)

Just a question but do Deidara/Onōki's flying techniques have any significant speed feats?


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## Veracity (Sep 8, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> Just a question but do Deidara/Onōki's flying techniques have any significant speed feats?



I'm pretty sure there are some, but it's too much work to find them. I know Deidara was outpacing Gaara's sand, and was outpacing both Naruto and Kakashis movement speed. But there are probably more feats.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Okay? Nothing more impressive them what Tsunade has been doing.
> 
> Same level of impressiveness.
> 
> ...



**


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## trance (Sep 8, 2013)

> He needed to use his raiton cloak to survive the tech thus already being v1.



I just caught this. 

He didn't use RnY to survive Mabui's technique...he was in base. You can see on the next page that he was.



> And I guess your right. Her striking speed is equal to Ay's when her muscles are partly destroyed.



Ei is renowned for his immense *movement* speed, not striking speed.

When he rushed Minato and Naruto, he basically just had his fist sticking straight out. Incredible striking speed would be Neji's 64 Palm.


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## Veracity (Sep 8, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> **



In your opinion I guess.

Well. Guess Im wrong. I've been lead astray.

You still don't make sense. In the panel above. We see Ay and Onnoki very close to Madara. With Tsunade not in sight at all. In the very next panel, Ay and Onnoki strike Madara at the same
Time Tsunade does. You can even prove this, because when Tsunades foot connects, you can see Ay's shirt thingy in the background. And if Tsunade wasn't in the panel above then she was at a further distance then Ay and Onoki.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> You still don't make sense. In the panel above. We see Ay and Onnoki very close to Madara. With Tsunade not in sight at all. In the very next panel, Ay and Onnoki strike Madara at the same
> Time Tsunade does. You can even prove this, because when Tsunades foot connects, you can see Ay's shirt thingy in the background. And if Tsunade wasn't in the panel above then she was at a further distance then Ay and Onoki.
> 
> Again faulty reasoning. You don't know where Onoki started when he started flying nor do you know when he started. For all you know Onoki could have started where he was at when Tsunade attack Madara first, left said spot after Mei used her water dragon, flew right past her, flew into the air and came down to fly into Madara and hit him. That would mean he moved a further distance then Tsunade did but you wouldn't know that which means Tsunade wouldn't have moved a greater distance. Again, you can't use Onoki position in that scan to say Tsunade has "superior movement speed" unless you know where he's starting from.
> ...



**


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## Van Konzen (Sep 8, 2013)

waiting for Prime Hiruzen feats for him to solo this battle..


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## Veracity (Sep 8, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> **



Really? Then I could say the same thing. Tsunade could have ran all the way back to Konoha and poured her self some sake,  and still made it back in time to drink said drink and strike at the same time.  That's your piss poor reasoning. So, lets say the distance they traveled was equal, then in the panel above, Tsunades  no where to be seen. But in  one panel she caught up and equaled a strike with Ay.

Basically,  we can't prove the distance between the two, but we already know for a fact that Tsunade was nowhere to be seen in the panel above, but caught up in one panel. Meaning she outpaced Onoki.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 8, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> Just a question but do Deidara/Onōki's flying techniques have any significant speed feats?



 It can't be too significant as Deidara's flying technique barely dodged Sasuke's Eisou and we was practically near out of range.


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## trance (Sep 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Really? Then I could say the same thing. Tsunade could have ran all the way back to Konoha and poured her self some sake,  and still made it back in time to drink said drink and strike at the same time.  That's your piss poor reasoning. So, lets say the distance they traveled was equal, then in the panel above, Tsunades  no where to be seen. But in  one panel she caught up and equaled a strike with Ay.
> 
> Basically,  we can't prove the distance between the two, but we already know for a fact that Tsunade was nowhere to be seen in the panel above, but caught up in one panel. Meaning she outpaced Onoki.



Look at how Madara was looking at Ei and not Tsunade. He knows Tsunade is stronger yet didn't even look at her. I mean if they both struck him at the exact same time, why would he be looking at Ei when Tsunade is the greater threat? That would mean Ei struck Madara first and Tsunade caught up in the time interval between the panel where it shows only Ei's hitting Susanoo and where Tsunade kicks him.


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