# EMS Madara vs Nagato's Six Paths of Pain



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 11, 2013)

Battlefield: Valley of the End
Starting Distance: 30 Meters
Restrictions: Kurama summoning and Perfect Susano'o, Chibaku Tensei
Knowledge: Basic for both

Who wins?


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## Sans (Apr 11, 2013)

Madara stomps.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 11, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Madara stomps.


Perfect Susano'o and Kurama are restricted. This is a pretty even fight dude.


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## Ersa (Apr 11, 2013)

No offense but how is this a good match?

All EMS Madara has shown us is muscled Susanoo, a fan, couple of Katons, PS and Kurama. You've basically restricted all his firepower and not nerfed the Pein Rikudo in the slightest.

EMS Madara wins


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## Sans (Apr 11, 2013)

No it isn't. Pain Rikudou cannot deal with Madara's Susano'o army.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 11, 2013)

Read. Restrictions. PS is restricted!


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## Orochimaru800 (Apr 11, 2013)

Rasant said:


> How could CST affect PS? Could it tank it or would it blow it off it's feet? I mean we've seen Susanoo can anchor itself to the ground because Itachi's was not sucked into CT but eh.
> 
> Deva/Preta are the two relevant Pein bodies that matter. But Preta took a while to absorb FRS, would I be right in saying Preta could take a hell of a long time to absorb PS? And Madara could you know step on him and flatten him.
> 
> ...



OP restricted PS, and CT though


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 11, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> No it isn't. Pain Rikudou cannot deal with Madara's Susano'o army.


Madara doesn't have Wood CLones here. Thus no Susano'o Army (which arguably would be destroyed by Cho Shinra Tensei).

Why have you become like this Komnenos?


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## ueharakk (Apr 11, 2013)

Does MAdara's giant susanoo count as PS?  Or is PS only the one with the mountain-cutting swords?


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## Sans (Apr 11, 2013)

He used Tajuu Kage Bunshin to create twenty five clones. He used a Mokuton Bunshin to replace himself against Tsunade, as no one bar him can discern the differences.


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## Orochimaru800 (Apr 11, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Does MAdara's giant susanoo count as PS?  Or is PS only the one with the mountain-cutting swords?



Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 11, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> He used Tajuu Kage Bunshin to create twenty five clones. He used a Mokuton Bunshin to replace himself against Tsunade, as no one bar him can discern the differences.


Tajuu *Mokuton* Bushin no Jutsu.


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## Ersa (Apr 11, 2013)

This thread is a secret ploy to prove KCM Naruto > EMS Madara.


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## Sans (Apr 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tajuu *Mokuton* Bushin no Jutsu.



My apologies. It still doesn't matter, Kishi told us that Pain Rikudou's moves and speed were completely below Nagato himself. Madara's been portrayed as unstoppable and could toy with the Gokage, even when he didn't resort to Perfect Susano'o and Tajuu Kage Bunshin. He absolutely stomps here.

Like, do you think Kishi would make EMS Madara only triumph over Pain Rikudou because of Perfect Susano'o? No.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 11, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> My apologies. It still doesn't matter, Kishi told us that Pain Rikudou's moves and speed were completely below Nagato himself. Madara's been portrayed as unstoppable and could toy with the Gokage, even when he didn't resort to Perfect Susano'o and Tajuu Kage Bunshin. He absolutely stomps here.
> 
> Like, do you think Kishi would make EMS Madara only triumph over Pain Rikudou because of Perfect Susano'o? No.


Unlike the Gokage, Pain Rikudou has moves that can nullify EMS Madara's arsenal of just his Susano'o and his Katons either via Deva Path's Shinra Tensei or Preta Path's absorption. 

Unlike the Gokage as well, the Pain Rikudo has shared vision which eliminates blindspots.

And Madara doesn't have Kage Bushin period. Don't give him feats he doesn't HAVE.


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## Sans (Apr 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Unlike the Gokage, Pain Rikudou has moves that can nullify EMS Madara's arsenal of just his Susano'o and his Katons either via Deva Path's Shinra Tensei or Preta Path's absorption.
> 
> Unlike the Gokage as well, the Pain Rikudo has shared vision which eliminates blindspots.
> 
> And Madara doesn't have Kage Bushin period. Don't give him feats he doesn't HAVE.



So you're basically saying that Pain Rikudou is better than the Gokage? To the point that someone who could toy with them, is now going to lose? 

I didn't give him feats. I said "even when he wasn't using clones" to refer to when he wasn't using clones. 

Just look at the way Pain Rikudou has actually been portrayed. Individually the Paths weren't spectacular in the Invasion of Pain, the way they handled themselves again an obsolete version of Naruto wasn't impressive by current standards as well. Madara is always shown to be essentially unstoppable against anyone. They're just in completely different tiers.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 11, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> So you're basically saying that Pain Rikudou is better than the Gokage? To the point that someone who could toy with them, is now going to lose?


You ignore that Madara had _Mokuton_ there which greatly helped toying with the Gokage-but even then he STILL said they were doing so well he needed Perfect Susano'o to defeat them.

And unlike the Gokage, Pain Rikudo's teamwork was still incredible impressive.


> I didn't give him feats. I said "even when he wasn't using clones" to refer to when he wasn't using clones.


He still had _Mokuton_ supporting his abilities there. His Base EMS abilities were countered by Sage Mode Naruto, Onoki, and Gaara remember?


> Just look at the way Pain Rikudou has actually been portrayed. Individually the Paths weren't spectacular in the Invasion of Pain, the way they handled themselves again an obsolete version of Naruto wasn't impressive by current standards as well. Madara is always shown to be essentially unstoppable against anyone. They're just in completely different tiers.


You mean the same Pain Rikudou whose individual paths were destroying an entire village as easily as walking in the park, toying with Jiraiya and Kakashi, etc.? And Naruto, who was facing a WEAKENED Pain is who you're comparing him to? And wait a second, Pain, who had been said to be absolutely unstoppable through hype and feats can't match up against the feats a solely EMS Madara displayed?

Oh, and ignore all the help that Madara's Mokuton and his Perfect Susano'o made against the Gokage-_which he doesn't have here._ All he has is V3 Susano'o, his Katons, and his taijutsu abilities he displayed. Nothing should be out of the ordinary for Pain to fight. Much less since Madara doesn't know about the reviving ability the Paths have via Naraka, or Shared Vision, or the boss summon spam.


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## ueharakk (Apr 11, 2013)

I know SSJMan already responded to this, but I couldn't resist following it up myself.



Komnenos said:


> So you're basically saying that Pain Rikudou is better than the Gokage? To the point that someone who could toy with them, is now going to lose?


cmon now. 

 The whole reason the gokage had trouble with non-PS/kagebunshin Madara was because he had the rinnegan AKA preta path and mokuton (which is what almost solo'd them).

Before that we saw what it took to kill a non-PS EMS Madara (oonoki, gaara and a SM clone all who were battleworn).  Madara wouldv'e had no answer for the the gokage helping oonoki land dust release on him.



Komnenos said:


> I didn't give him feats. I said "even when he wasn't using clones" to refer to when he wasn't using clones.


edo madara isn't just ems madara with clones....



Komnenos said:


> Just look at the way Pain Rikudou has actually been portrayed. Individually the Paths weren't spectacular in the Invasion of Pain, the way they handled themselves again an obsolete version of Naruto wasn't impressive by current standards as well. Madara is always shown to be essentially unstoppable against anyone. They're just in completely different tiers.


portrayal means jack when the OP takes away the abilities that garnered the bulk of the characters portrayal hype.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 11, 2013)

madara stomps effortlessly.

-he can just use the susano that easily tanked bijudama when hashirama redirected the kyuubis bijudama during VOTE.

-susano tanks shinra tensei without even being budged. deva is sliced down during the 5 second limit.

-asura paths missles and lasers are tanked by the gunbai barrier. susano isnt needed.

-animal path summons are set ablaze by battlefield dwarfing katons.

-the paths cant protect each other from madaras attacks due to the sheer scale of his techs.

-nagato getting his arm ripped off by susano proves that it cant be absorbed so madara slices preta path in half and calls it a day.

-naraka and human path are fodder and have no attacks that can get through susano.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 11, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> madara stomps effortlessly.
> 
> -he can just use the susano that easily tanked bijudama when hashirama redirected the kyuubis bijudama during VOTE.


Any sturdy defense can tank a redirected attack like that. And Madara is _restricted to V3 Susano'o_ since that version has FEATS.


> -susano tanks shinra tensei without even being budged. deva is sliced down during the 5 second limit.


Susano'o is a ninjutsu, Shinra Tensei dispells Ninjutsu.


> -asura paths missles and lasers are tanked by the gunbai barrier. susano isnt needed.


Or said Gunbai is yanked off of Madara's hand with Bansho Ten'in and he Asura Path fights him in taijutsu.


> -animal path summons are set ablaze by battlefield dwarfing katons.


You realize all that'll do to the Cerberus is make it multiply uncontrollably? And how can Madara find the chameleon, the Sharingan is already unable to see it.


> -the paths cant protect each other from madaras attacks due to the sheer scale of his techs.


Preta Path absorbs said attacks.


> -nagato getting his arm ripped off by susano proves that it cant be absorbed so madara slices preta path in half and calls it a day.


...Nagato didn't even _have Preta Path active then._ Susano'o is a ninjutsu, its made of chakra. Preta Path absorbs it.


> -naraka and human path are fodder and have no attacks that can get through susano.


Naraka Path can continually revive Paths that are dead, and Human Path's taijutsu gives Madara problems.

You really hate anyone besides Madara, Sasuke, and Itachi don't you?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> *Any sturdy defense can tank a redirected attack like that. *And Madara is _restricted to V3 Susano'o_ since that version has FEATS.


any defense can tank bijudama? you are finally gaining some sense and not wanking bijudama anymore.


> Susano'o is a ninjutsu, Shinra Tensei dispells Ninjutsu.


it didnt disperse narutos clones. it cant do that to any sturdy construct like susano.


> Or said Gunbai is yanked off of Madara's hand with Bansho Ten'in and he Asura Path fights him in taijutsu.


so the gunbai will somehow be ripped form the barrier that its behind? what dark magic will pain use to do this because he has never shown this ability in the manga.


> You realize all that'll do to the Cerberus is make it multiply uncontrollably? And how can Madara find the chameleon, the Sharingan is already unable to see it.


setting the battlefield on fire and engulfing the cerebrus in flames wont stop it? itachi disagrees.


> Preta Path absorbs said attacks.


sure, while preta path is busy absorbing a katon that covers a battlefield, madara blitzes it and beheads preta path.



> ...Nagato didn't even _have Preta Path active then._ *Susano'o is a ninjutsu, its made of chakra. Preta Path absorbs it.*


just like preta path did in the manga? sure ok.


> Naraka Path can continually revive Paths that are dead, and Human Path's taijutsu gives Madara problems.


naraka path cant revive anyone if its dead. human path cant get through susano. madara ignores it or one-shots it in the beginning of the match.


> You really hate anyone besides Madara, Sasuke, and Itachi don't you?



-snip-


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 11, 2013)

Madara takes this with mid diff at most i guess. The most problematic characters are animal path( mainly because of the multiplying dog), naraka path(if madara is allowed to know about it's powers...this "basic knowledge" stipulation is very vague) and preta path for obvious reasons. The deva path while formidable cannot stop susanoo from anchoring itself and the 5 second interval would be bad for him even if he does manage to budge the susanoo. It took Ei being super weighted by onoki in V2 to knock susanoo back so it would take one of the mightiest ST to knock back susanoo in this match. Deva path is actually kinda meh here with CT.

The human path is fodder here and can be cut down but PS generic swords which bust apart onoki and gaara's layered defense with ease. Same with Asura path...i would say after madara attempts to use his fire technique and it gets absorbed preta path will meet this same fate rather quickly as well(maybe with a katon feint and a strong sword blow).

Madara camping in susanoo for the ultimate offense and defense is perfect for group fighting like this since the paths durability is not off the charts and asura path is the only one with super firepower but he will be dealt with rather easily by the higher stages of susanoo(seeing as even sasuke's skeletal form could withstand big  explosions). As long as naraka path does not get to start it's reviving fuckery(which madara will not let happen giving his intelligence/aggressive fighting style) he should take this mid diff at best.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 11, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> any defense can tank bijudama? you are finally gaining some sense and not wanking bijudama anymore.


Redirected. Bijudama. One that hadn't exploded. One that hadn't been shot. Not only that, he had to immediately back up his Susano'o's defense with Kurama itself.

There's a difference.


> it didnt disperse narutos clones. it cant do that to any sturdy construct like susano.


Sage Mode clone dispersed here. Clones dispersed by the assload here. Naruto had to just keep creating more and more and more to endure Shinra Tensei.


> so the gunbai will somehow be ripped form the barrier that its behind? what dark magic will pain use to do this because he has never shown this ability in the manga.


Bansho Ten'in has been shown to grab objects as small as Shima. Yanking the gunbai out of Madara's grip should be child's play.



> setting the battlefield on fire and engulfing the cerebrus in flames wont stop it? itachi disagrees.


Itachi only defeated the Cerberus when Nagato let himself be hit. Only way to defeat the Cerberus is to defeat the summoner itself, and since Animal Path hides itself from even the Sharingan's sight Madara won't be able to defeat it. 


> sure, while preta path is busy absorbing a katon that covers a battlefield, madara blitzes it and beheads preta path.


Preta Path could react to two Gatsuga while blinded, the Mach 20 FRS to intercept it, and absorbed an entire lake of ignited, boiling oil in an instant. Sorry, Madara won't be 'blitzing' anyone here.



> just like preta path did in the manga? sure ok.


Dear god are you this obstinate? _Kabuto had Nagato deactivate Preta Path since he had forgotten about Itachi and Naruto and Bee were beaten._ Manga. FACT. You...grr...


> naraka path cant revive anyone if its dead. human path cant get through susano. madara ignores it or one-shots it in the beginning of the match.


...you really love wanking Madara. He doesn't know Naraka can revive the dead. He doesn't know any of the Path's actual abilities.


> you hate anyone not named naruto dont you? im guessing that you are only pitting madara against pain to try and convince people that madara will lose to hype up naruto by proxy.


Dear god you're just so fucking annoying.


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## Bonly (Apr 11, 2013)

The six paths of pain should win. Preta path makes all of Madara's Katon's,Yasaka no Magatama useless along with Susanoo if he touches it. Madara is going to have to go into CQC and Deva path can do the majority of the work with Asura path ready with some of his missiles. Madara would need Kurama or PS to win here.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Redirected. Bijudama. One that hadn't exploded. One that hadn't been shot. Not only that, he had to immediately back up his Susano'o's defense with Kurama itself.
> 
> There's a difference.


here i was thinking that you redeemed yourself.
the power in a bijudama comes from the explosion not the ball. the kyuubi has no effect on susanos durability. madara used susano as armor for the kyuubi so it wouldnt get damaged or suppressed.


> Sage Mode clone dispersed here. Clones dispersed by the assload here. Naruto had to just keep creating more and more and more to endure Shinra Tensei.


i see. you couldnt counter my post so you responded with fanfiction. narutos clones which are ninjutsu braced him from shinra tensei and this disproves your theory.



> Bansho Ten'in has been shown to grab objects as small as Shima. Yanking the gunbai out of Madara's grip should be child's play.


it doesnt matter if pain can bansho tenin shima. he has not used bansho tenin on something behind a wall even once in this manga so he doesnt have this ability.



> *Itachi only defeated the Cerberus when Nagato let himself be hit.* Only way to defeat the Cerberus is to defeat the summoner itself, and since Animal Path hides itself from even the Sharingan's sight Madara won't be able to defeat it.


no, he beat the cerebrus because he set it on fire and it was constantly on the ground writhing in pain. madara lights its up, yawns then proceeds to fodderize the other paths.


> Preta Path could react to two Gatsuga while blinded, the Mach 20 FRS to intercept it, and absorbed an entire lake of ignited, boiling oil in an instant. Sorry, Madara won't be 'blitzing' anyone here.


sure he will. jiraiya managed to keep it occupied with ninjutsu for a while to attack human path. madara attacks cover entire battlefields. jiraiyas attack only filled a hallway.



> Dear god are you this obstinate? _Kabuto had Nagato deactivate Preta Path since he had forgotten about Itachi and Naruto and Bee were beaten._ Manga. FACT. You...grr...


sorry, your theory is baseless. kishi disagrees.


> ...you really love wanking Madara. He doesn't know Naraka can revive the dead. He doesn't know any of the Path's actual abilities.


he read the uchiha tablet which contains information on the rinnegan. he knew about rinne tensei. it doesnt matter anyway. that path gets fodderized in the crossfire.


> Dear god you're just so fucking annoying.



-snip-


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 11, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> here i was thinking that you redeemed yourself.
> the power in a bijudama comes from the explosion not the ball. the kyuubi has no effect on susanos durability. madara used susano as armor for the kyuubi so it wouldnt get damaged or suppressed.


Strange how said armor held up a lot less against Hashirama's barrage than Kurama itself did. 

And Madara IMMEDIATELY shaped Susano'o around Kurama to protect himself from the explosion.


> i see. you couldnt counter my post so you responded with fanfiction. narutos clones which are ninjutsu braced him from shinra tensei and this disproves your theory.


Didn't you look at the evidence? Shinra Tensei was dispelling the clones, hell look at the fucking first scan. Not only fucking that, Naruto had to continually make clones to brace himself. THAT IS CANON.


> it doesnt matter if pain can bansho tenin shima. he has not used bansho tenin on something behind a wall even once in this manga so he doesnt have this ability.


Why shouldn't he? He can Bansho Ten'in small objects, yanking a weapon he can clearly see out of a person's hand shouldn't be impossible. 



> no, he beat the cerebrus because he set it on fire and it was constantly on the ground writhing in pain. madara lights its up, yawns then proceeds to fodderize the other paths.


Nagato: Hitting that dog _just makes it multiply_, you have to defeat me! *MANGA. FUCKING. CANON.*

And guess what, Madara doesn't have Amaterasu. 


> sure he will. jiraiya managed to keep it occupied with ninjutsu for a while to attack human path. madara attacks cover entire battlefields. jiraiyas attack only filled a hallway.


Jiraiya had to isolate them in a narrow hallway to fight them one on one. 

Senpo: Goemon is roughly the size of Madara's Katons Preta absorbed it instantly.

And not only that? Jiraiya's clone did a CONTINUAL fireblast to keep Preta Path blinded to blind the shared vision it had.

-snip-



> sorry, your theory is baseless. kishi disagrees.
> 
> he read the uchiha tablet which contains information on the rinnegan. he knew about rinne tensei. it doesnt matter anyway. that path gets fodderized in the crossfire.
> 
> you just get butthurt whenever i swagger all over you in debates.


No, I get angry since all you do is annoy other posters, continually make false statements, bash characters who aren't Madara, ignore or exaggerate Madara's, Sasuke's, Itachi's abilities and ignore what the manga even said about their opponents.

Oh, and guess what: the EMS isn't able to read the entire tablet. He wouldn't know the Rinnegan abilities until he obtained the Rinnegan itself.

You accuse people of posting fanfiction when that is ALL you fucking do.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Strange how said armor held up a lot less against Hashirama's barrage than Kurama itself did.


oh god, do you even know what you're saying :rofl ? 
the punches were strong enough to break susano but not damage the kyuubi at the same time.


> And Madara IMMEDIATELY shaped Susano'o around Kurama to protect himself from the explosion.


no, madara planted his susano in front of the kyuubi so it wouldnt demolished by its own bijudama and then put PS armor on the kyuubi after the explosion.


> Didn't you look at the evidence? Shinra Tensei was dispelling the clones, hell look at the fucking first scan. Not only fucking that, Naruto had to continually make clones to brace himself. THAT IS CANON.


yeah i looked. naruto didnt even make the handseals for kage bunshin. the clones straight up tanked it. shinra tensei is concussive force. it does nothing to madaras susano. THAT IS CANON.


> Why shouldn't he? He can Bansho Ten'in small objects, yanking a weapon he can clearly see out of a person's hand shouldn't be impossible.


if the gunbai is behind a barrier then it cant be pulled. simple.  



> Nagato: Hitting that dog _just makes it multiply_, you have to defeat me! *MANGA. FUCKING. CANON.*


even though cerebrus got one-shotted, you still claim this nonsense.


> And guess what, Madara doesn't have Amaterasu.


he still sets cerebrus on fire with map rewriting katons so this is irrelevant.


> Jiraiya had to isolate them in a narrow hallway to fight them one on one.


he still stalled preta path with generic ninjutsu for a while.


> Senpo: Goemon is roughly the size of Madara's Katons Preta absorbed it instantly.


no its not. now you're just trolling. senpo: geomon didnt come close to engulfing the entire battlefield like madaras katons.


> And not only that? Jiraiya's clone did a CONTINUAL fireblast to keep Preta Path blinded to blind the shared vision it had.


no, jiraiyas clone merely used a katon. a continuous fire stream was never shown.


> You really need to stop wanking when manga canon shows you wrong.


yes, you should stop doing this.



> No, I get angry since all you do is annoy other posters, continually make false statements, bash characters who aren't Madara, ignore or exaggerate Madara's, Sasuke's, Itachi's abilities and ignore what the manga even said about their opponents.
> 
> Oh, and guess what: the EMS isn't able to read the entire tablet. He wouldn't know the Rinnegan abilities until he obtained the Rinnegan itself.
> 
> You accuse people of posting fanfiction when that is ALL you fucking do.



-snip-


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 12, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> oh god, do you even know what you're saying :rofl ?
> the punches were strong enough to break susano but not damage the kyuubi at the same time.


Kurama was standing there undamaged despite having to have to take thousands of punches due to the sheer scale of the technique after Susano'o was stripped off.


> no, madara planted his susano in front of the kyuubi so it wouldnt demolished by its own bijudama and then put PS armor on the kyuubi after the explosion.


You actually think Kurama would have been damaged by his own Bijudama? SERIOUSLY, GIVING HIS TANKING FEATS?

He put the Susano'o armor on during the explosion since that was the only way it could survive with Kurama's power backing it up. Stop. Fucking. Denying. It.


> yeah i looked. naruto didnt even make the handseals for kage bunshin. the clones straight up tanked it. shinra tensei is concussive force. it does nothing to madaras susano. THAT IS CANON.


CLONE BEING DISPELLED BY SHINRA TENSEI!



> if the gunbai is behind a barrier then it cant be pulled. simple.


Prove it. If someone can be yanked out of Susano'o itself, the Gunbai should be able to be pulled out of that barrier.



> even though cerebrus got one-shotted, you still claim this nonsense.


Cerberus was only dispelled after Nagato was taken out. The manga itself says you're wrong.


> he still sets cerebrus on fire with map rewriting katons so this is irrelevant.


Those Katons do not 'rewrite maps' for god's sake. Its only Perfect Susano'o which rewrites maps-which MADARA EVEN SAID HIMSELF.


> he still stalled preta path with generic ninjutsu for a while.


Narrow hallway, using a clone which continually pumped an Endan at him.


> no its not. now you're just trolling. senpo: geomon didnt come close to engulfing the entire battlefield like madaras katons.


Goemon filled an ENTIRE AREA and even created a fucking tidal wave.

Anyone can see they are near the same size if not the same.


> no, jiraiyas clone merely used a katon. a continuous fire stream was never shown.


Jiraiya's plan was to blast Preta with a flame which it was forced to absorb to blind it to force a one-on-one with the Paths.


> yes, you should stop doing this.


Show your scans then. I back up with evidence. You don't. You accuse me of using Fanfiction when its all you do.

-snip-


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## blk (Apr 12, 2013)

Madara without Perfect Susano'o, Mokuton, Kurama and Rinnegan has only the first 3 (or 4?) stages of Susano'o with Yasaka Magatama and two swords that don't seem anything special, in addition to his huge Katons.

In this restricted form, he is just a weaker version of Itachi and Sasuke (though, we still don't know his other MS powers, to be fair).

Considering that a fight between Itachi (or Sasuke) and Pain can easily go either way (and i would say that the latter is generally superior), i don't see how Madara has any chance of winning.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He put the Susano'o armor on during the explosion since that was the only way it could survive with Kurama's power backing it up. Stop. Fucking. Denying. It.



Provide a scan where it is said that the durability of Perfect Susano'o was powered up by Kurama's chakra.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 12, 2013)

Not saying Madara wins, or anything, but . . .



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You ignore that Madara had _Mokuton_ there which greatly helped toying with the Gokage-but even then he STILL said they were doing so well he needed Perfect Susano'o to defeat them.



He said that he was relatively impressed by them, and probably used Perfect Susano'o just because he wanted to stop playing around. That, and it was mentioned he wanted to break their will. 

Speaking realistically, if he wasn't messing about for so long, this battle would have been over very quickly.



> And unlike the Gokage, Pain Rikudo's teamwork was still incredible impressive.



Are you saying that the Kage didn't work together incredibly well? Because this is not true [1] [2] [3]. There's way more, but I think I proved my point. The whole reason they survived so long was because they had such good teamwork. Their synergy is actually much better than Pain's.



> He still had _Mokuton_ supporting his abilities there. His Base EMS abilities were countered by Sage Mode Naruto, Onoki, and Gaara remember?



He only really used Mokuton just because he wanted to try it out. He wasn't really forced into doing anything, and to be honest, if he felt like being serious from the get-go with his opponents back then, he probably would have been able to decimate them.



> You mean the same Pain Rikudou whose individual paths were destroying an entire village as easily as walking in the park, toying with Jiraiya and Kakashi, etc.?



Jiraiya defeated three of them with no knowledge, and Kakashi nearly killed Deva Path on several occassions. Pain wasn't toying with them, and while the destruction of the village was simple enough for them, I'd argue that Madara could have done it just as easily with all the techniques he's got at his disposal. 



> And Naruto, who was facing a WEAKENED Pain is who you're comparing him to? And wait a second, Pain, who had been said to be absolutely unstoppable through hype and feats can't match up against the feats a solely EMS Madara displayed?



EMS Madara was described as invincible and only being able to be defeated by Hashirama by Dan. Hype is meaningless here.

Here, Madara also has the gunbai, which was able to casually absorb and deflect an attack with more firepower than anything Pain is capable of using.


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## Sans (Apr 12, 2013)

Madara was using Hashirama's techniques because they were new. His fights with Hashirama only show the endings so far. He is still the person the Gokage deemed invincible, and he was totally at ease with them, even when barely doing anything.

Pain Rikudou struggled on an individual basis with their fights against Konoha's defenders. It struggled against an incredibly obsolescent form of Naruto, even taking into account extenuating circumstances. It was directly stated to be below Nagato in both the scale and execution of jutsu.

Instead of assuming that Madara has no base arsenal, perhaps we should take the nod from Kishi that these two are tiers apart.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

^ Yayyyyyyyyyy logic.


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## Joakim3 (Apr 12, 2013)

With PS & Kurama restricted EMS Madara is being stomped into oblivion seeing Nagato can still nuke with CST and summon Gedo Mazo. This Madara is essentially a watered down Sasuke/Itachi 

If Madara attempts to engage them in CqC he is mercilessly slaughtered thanks to shared vision. Eventually the fight will escalate to _Katon_ nuking at which point Gakido starts to troll with _Fujutsu Kuyin_. 

Madara eventually resorts to V3 _Susano'o_ which is completely countered by Nagato's summon armada. Cebereus by itself can negate it by feats, let alone the 8 other summons to boot. Adding Tendo & Shurado sparadically nuking with _Shinra Tensei_, _Missiles_ & _Laser Explosion_ and Madara is going to be on the defensive 100% of the time

In the event Madara does kill the paths in the ensuing mayhem, Jigukudo & Chikushudo will casually be camping in Madara's blind spots via the Chameleon.... so troll revival will be occurring this match

If at any point Nagato gets fed up fight Madara or he latter starts jabbing about pain.... he sends Tendo into the air, and wipes Madara off the map with CST..... or simply summons Gedo Mazo to do the work for him GG









Taking PS & Kurama away from Madara is like taking Tendo away from Nagato's _Pein Rikudo_...... your left with a shell of the original entity, just a thought for future matches


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## Nikushimi (Apr 12, 2013)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

WHAT HAPPENED?! WHY IS HE BANNED?!

GIVE HIM BACK! 

I wanted to tell him personally that this was a terrible thread because EMS Madara has close to zero feats outside of an incomplete Susano'o (which is no stronger than Itachi's or Sasuke's), standard Sharingan Genjutsu, and two really big Katon Ninjutsu.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Basic knowledge isn't good enough. Madara is still prone to losing to the same tactics Pain uses on all foes.

Madara's jutsu are generally useless because of the Preta Path. So he's forced into CQC, which is suicide against six foes, some of which can make CQC a very bad idea.

Pain wins. Madara will realise he has to go in close without relying on Ninjutsu much (so he'll try the fan). However shared vision will prove to be a bit much, and a well timed attack from some of the Pain Realms (particularly God/Demon/Human Realm) will end it.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

Am I the only one that thinks it's stupid to assume Madara drops 2 tiers simply because he can't use the last layer of Susanoo's armor.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 12, 2013)

Assuming he doesn't have mokuton as well....

EMS Madara doesn't stand a chance here with those restrictions.

He can put up a fight but Pain got the tools to work around his defenses and finish him off.


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## Bonly (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Am I the only one that thinks it's stupid to assume Madara drops 2 tiers simply because he can't use the last layer of Susanoo's armor.



What has he shown without PS and Kurama, what exactly has he shown makes you think he beats the six paths of pain? Or do you think he has something that wasn't shown to us is enough to make you think he beat the six paths of pain?


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Or do you think he has something that wasn't shown to us is enough to make you think he beat the six paths of pain?



That

The only serious fight we've seen Madara partake his his climatic showdown against a Shinobi god that required his absolute maximum ability.

Madara's battle with the Gokage was Kishi's way of showcasing Mokuton. We saw only slight uses of the Mangekyou & Rinnegan. Madara has not shown us his full arsenal, unless you're under the impression that EMS Madara can only use 3 or 4 Justu.

He has still yet to reveal the prerequisites for Susano'o, and any Base abilities other than his 3 Fire Style techniques & Standard Genjutsu.

Is Shattered Heaven or whatever a Rinnegan technique? Madara had the Rinnegan active when the meteor was falling, but Susano'o made the handseals.


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## Jagger (Apr 12, 2013)

Pain wins.  It's more obvious than Gaara being an Uzumaki.

Seriously talking, Pain wins.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

What would happen if Pain threw up a CT orb in response to Madara using the meteorites?


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What would happen if Pain threw up a CT orb in response to Madara using the meteorites?



I mean, since the meteorite is already being pulled by the gravity of the planet, the extra pull would make it speed up.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I mean, since the meteorite is already being pulled by the gravity of the planet, the extra pull would make it speed up.



The CT orb attracts stuff around itself. So it is possible the meteorite/s could just make a large contribution to CT.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

Yes it would pull the meteorite at itself, but I don't know how the meteor becomes a contribution. It just hits CT instead of the ground.


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## Bonly (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That
> 
> The only serious fight we've seen Madara partake his his climatic showdown against a Shinobi god that required his absolute maximum ability.
> 
> ...



I see, then may I ask why you would say Minato would blitz Tobirama as of now in ? How come you didn't make the claim that he might have something he hasn't shown yet to beat Minato? How come you think the Nindaime Mizukage ? Why not make the claim that the Mizukage might have something he didn't show that can hurt the Sandaime? How come you used only what was shown from Tobirama and the trollkage to pick a winner in their matches but not with EMS Madara here, if I may ask? 



> Is Shattered Heaven or whatever a Rinnegan technique? Madara had the Rinnegan active when the meteor was falling, but Susano'o made the handseals.



I think it was a Rinne tech. Its just a much large version of Nagato's BT. Maybe Susanoo can increase the size of the falling rock but im not too sure what Susanoo's evolvement is.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I see, then may I ask why you would say Minato would blitz Tobirama as of now in ? How come you didn't make the claim that he might have something he hasn't shown yet to beat Minato?



"Minato blitzes" is the same thing as "Minato wins". The only way for Minato to win his fights are basically a Hiraishin "blitzes". It's not like I meant Minato would fodderize. Also there's no two tier gap between Tobirama & Minato, like Madara & Pain. Minato will probably still win after the War arch is over anyway, considering he'll get new feats along with Tobirama. I'm fairly certain Madara doesn't drop below Pain's tier with only the loss of his final Susano'o stage.



> How come you think the Nindaime Mizukage ? Why not make the claim that the Mizukage might have something he didn't show that can hurt the Sandaime?



Becuase Kishimoto has shown us everything we'll ever see from those two, and Nindaime cannot do shit. Unless he has a more destructive attack than a Super-Effective FRS, which he doesn't.



> How come you used only what was shown from Tobirama and the trollkage to pick a winner in their matches but not with EMS Madara here, if I may ask?



See above. I find it hard to believe that Perfect Susano'o is the only thing separating Nagato's puppets and the Legendary Madara. Pain isn't on his level. Naruto steamrolled the paths, only falling when his Senjutsu wore off. Sage Naruto is more Pains tier, not Madara. 



> I think it was a Rinne tech. Its just a much large version of Nagato's BT. Maybe Susanoo can increase the size of the falling rock but im not too sure what Susanoo's evolvement is.



Thanks


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## LanzaVelocity (Apr 12, 2013)

Is he perma-banned? 

What will I do without Itachi's biggest fan?


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2013)

Well, EMS MAdara was going to be killed by a tired Naruto, Gaara and Onoki. I bet his unstoppable hype comes from an unrestricted Madara.

He is like a version of Itachi here with a weaker susano'o but better stamina and without one hit kill jutsus like Amaterasu.

EMS Madara's feats looks not enough to face the Pain Rikudo, who counters all of his jutsus and attacks and is also able to one shot him if desired with a pretty strong Shinra Tensei.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yes it would pull the meteorite at itself, but I don't know how the meteor becomes a contribution. It just hits CT instead of the ground.



CT works by pulling pieces of the earth (rock, land and shiz) towards it; the meteorite is just a giant rock. If it attaches itself to CT, then it will be a contribution, whether it stays whole or breaks apart.



Bonly said:


> I think it was a Rinne tech. Its just a much large version of Nagato's BT. Maybe Susanoo can increase the size of the falling rock but im not too sure what Susanoo's evolvement is.



I would go as far as to say it is still debatable. Shikaku believes it is without a doubt Madara's jutsu; Madara hasn't enjoyed the view the jutsu provides, for a long time now.

That means if it was a Rinnegan jutsu, it has to be sometime when Madara was an old man, _after_ he awakened the Rinnegan and _before_ he was dependent on the Gedo Mazo for life support. 
Though then you have to ponder: what makes Shikaku certain it was Madara's jutsu? The only inconsistency I possibly see is Kabuto not knowing about it.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Well, EMS MAdara was going to be killed by a tired Naruto, Gaara and Onoki. I bet his unstoppable hype comes from an unrestricted Madara.
> .



For one he was distracted, two, he knew he had the Rinnegan in reserve, and 3, Naruto Gaara & Onoki would lay waste to Pain.

Fighting styles also change with the addition of new Jutsu.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 12, 2013)

I hope you guys know EMS Madara (prime state) has the Kyuubi? He had it on a contract.

Madara w/ Kurama absolutely obliterates Nagato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> I hope you guys know EMS Madara (prime state) has the Kyuubi? He had it on a contract.
> 
> Madara w/ Kurama absolutely obliterates Nagato.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Battlefield: Valley of the End
> Starting Distance: 30 Meters
> Restrictions: *Kurama summoning *and Perfect Susano'o, Chibaku Tensei
> Knowledge: Basic for both
> ...



ITT, Madara does not have Kurama.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 12, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> ITT, Madara does not have Kurama.



Oh shit, didn't read the restrictions. No restrictions, Madara rapes. However, under these circumstances, Pain wins.


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## Bonly (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> "Minato blitzes" is the same thing as "Minato wins". The only way for Minato to win his fights are basically a Hiraishin "blitzes". It's not like I meant Minato would fodderize. Also there's no two tier gap between Tobirama & Minato, like Madara & Pain. Minato will probably still win after the War arch is over anyway, considering he'll get new feats along with Tobirama. I'm fairly certain Madara doesn't drop below Pain's tier with only the loss of his final Susano'o stage.



So because there is no two tier gap from tiers you made up, you still think Minato would beat Tobirama after the war yet won't think/claim that Tobirama might have something in his arsenal that he hasn't shown that would allow him to win just like your doing with Madara here? Also Madara lost PS+Kurama which is a pretty big chunck of his power as far as we know.



> Becuase Kishimoto has shown us everything we'll ever see from those two, and Nindaime cannot do shit. Unless he has a more destructive attack than a Super-Effective FRS, which he doesn't.



How does this stop one from making the claim that the trollkage has something to kill the Sandaime easily but he hasn't just shown it yet just like you are with Madara? Seems to me you are being a bit biased on who can or can't have something in their unknown arsenal.



> See above. I find it hard to believe that Perfect Susano'o is the only thing separating Nagato's puppets and the Legendary Madara. Pain isn't on his level. Naruto steamrolled the paths, only falling when his Senjutsu wore off. Sage Naruto is more Pains tier, not Madara.



Ahh so pretty much your gut feeling that EMS Madara without Kurama+PS is still above their level. From a portrayal outlook I would agree with you if he was ever portrayed to be that storng without said objects.



> Thanks



No prob 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I would go as far as to say it is still debatable. Shikaku believes it is without a doubt Madara's jutsu; Madara hasn't enjoyed the view the jutsu provides, for a long time now.
> 
> That means if it was a Rinnegan jutsu, it has to be sometime when Madara was an old man, _after_ he awakened the Rinnegan and _before_ he was dependent on the Gedo Mazo for life support.
> *Though then you have to ponder: what makes Shikaku certain it was Madara's jutsu?* The only inconsistency I possibly see is Kabuto not knowing about it.



If I remember correctly the only edo's in the area was the edo kages. Then Muu popped up with Madara and after such legends about Madara as well as having a good idea about Muu's justu(or jutsu he uses most of the time) are, it would make sense that he thought it was Madara's powers without a doubt.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> If I remember correctly the only edo's in the area was the edo kages. Then Muu popped up with Madara and after such legends about Madara as well as having a good idea about Muu's justu(or jutsu he uses most of the time) are, it would make sense that he thought it was Madara's powers without a doubt.



What about Madara having seen the view the jutsu creates a long time ago?


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## Bonly (Apr 12, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What about Madara having seen the view the jutsu creates a long time ago?



The best I can think of would be by his genjutsu. He was able to do quite a bit such as turn himself young and was able to teach Obito the six paths among other things. Although that has nothing to back it up that he did use such a method but thats the best I can come up with that might make some sense.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> The best I can think of would be by his genjutsu. He was able to do quite a bit such as turn himself young and was able to teach Obito the six paths among other things. Although that has nothing to back it up that he did use such a method but thats the best I can come up with that might make some sense.



Or it could be equally possible that either at some point during his lifetime (prior or post Rinnegan) he did actually use that meteorite jutsu. Unless simply having Hashirama's DNA meant he could access it, which leaves room for prime Madara to have used it at some point.


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> For one he was distracted, two, he knew he had the Rinnegan in reserve, and 3, Naruto Gaara & Onoki would lay waste to Pain.
> 
> Fighting styles also change with the addition of new Jutsu.



Madara was not distracted. He was surprised. Rinnegan was the only thing that he had to survive that (Aside from PS if he could've resummoned fast), and he doesn't have it here. That's why i said EMS (Or MS) Madara and yeah, they would, i just made a point of why EMS Madara with those jutsus restricted is not an unstoppable force.

And most of his jutsus (If not all of them) are countered by Pain. Of course, the ones available to him right now.


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## Bonly (Apr 12, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Or it could be equally possible that either at some point during his lifetime (prior or post Rinnegan) he did actually use that meteorite jutsu. Unless simply having Hashirama's DNA meant he could access it, which leaves room for prime Madara to have used it at some point.



Maybe but I highly doubt it did it before he got the Rinnegan.


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## αce (Apr 12, 2013)

Am I allowed to powerscale here or is this simply a feats only argument? Because EMS Madara beat _Oonoki and Muu_ *without even trying. *Madara may not have perfect Susano-o, but when you are placing two Tsuchikage's on their behinds while self admittedly not taking the fight in the least bit serious - I'm declaring that the outcome of this match is fairly obvious.


Unless we are using feats only arguments which fail completely since the OP restricted the majority of Madara's on panel upper tier feats. Make this thread again when his EMS jutsu's are elaborated on.


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## Sans (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Am I the only one that thinks it's stupid to assume Madara drops 2 tiers simply because he can't use the last layer of Susanoo's armor.



This is actually a large part of why I stopped posting. The Battledome has a far more strict view on hype, portrayal and making assumptions based on them. It's also far more interested in a "feats only" view than I am.



Bonly said:


> What has he shown without PS and Kurama, what exactly has he shown makes you think he beats the six paths of pain? Or do you think he has something that wasn't shown to us is enough to make you think he beat the six paths of pain?



Please read this post.



Komnenos said:


> Madara was using Hashirama's techniques because they were new. His fights with Hashirama only show the endings so far. He is still the person the Gokage deemed invincible, and he was totally at ease with them, even when barely doing anything.
> 
> Pain Rikudou struggled on an individual basis with their fights against Konoha's defenders. It struggled against an incredibly obsolescent form of Naruto, even taking into account extenuating circumstances. It was directly stated to be below Nagato in both the scale and execution of jutsu.
> 
> Instead of assuming that Madara has no base arsenal, perhaps we should take the nod from Kishi that these two are tiers apart.



Of _course_ he has more to his arsenal. It's canon that he's been using new techniques, and not his already familiar jutsu.

This is the man who's been totally comfortable in all his current fights. When the end of Edo Tensei was sucking back to hell, he literally had a counter. That's why for this fight, I'm more concerned about hype and portrayal. And while I cannot say _how_ Madara would win, I am more than confident he would do so.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The CT orb attracts stuff around itself. So it is possible the meteorite/s could just make a large contribution to CT.



It's also definite that it would just blow the orb up.



Bonly said:


> I see, then may I ask why you would say Minato would blitz Tobirama as of now in ? How come you didn't make the claim that he might have something he hasn't shown yet to beat Minato? How come you think the Nindaime Mizukage ? Why not make the claim that the Mizukage might have something he didn't show that can hurt the Sandaime? How come you used only what was shown from Tobirama and the trollkage to pick a winner in their matches but not with EMS Madara here, if I may ask?



There are some differences here. Tobirama hasn't been portrayed (yet) as anything more than a decent Kage level shinobi. Minato is generally seen as above that level, and if he wins a fight, it's going to be via a blitz. 

Conversely, Madara's portrayal and hype has been laid out painstakingly. The Gokage thought they were going up against EMS Madara, and their first response was "well we're boned."



Minato Namikaze said:


> Oh shit, didn't read the restrictions. No restrictions, Madara rapes. However, under these circumstances, Pain wins.



- sigh -


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## Bonly (Apr 12, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> There are some differences here. Tobirama hasn't been portrayed (yet) as anything more than a decent Kage level shinobi. Minato is generally seen as above that level, and if he wins a fight, it's going to be via a blitz.



EMS Madara without Kurama or PS has not been noted to be im above decent kage level since he has been hyped up with all his powers only as far as I remember. 



> Conversely, Madara's portrayal and hype has been laid out painstakingly. *The Gokage thought they were going up against EMS Madara, and their first response was "well we're boned."*



Bold is false. Madara popped up and Onoki, Gaara, Naruto and some fodder took him on for a short while and forced him to use the Rinnegan. Onoki and Gaara knew of the Rinnegan then A,Tsunade,and Mei went to fight him without any doubt they can take him on. At what point in time did the Gokage have the reation of "well we're boned" before they knew he had the Rinnegan or could do Hashi's jutsu?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 12, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> It's also definite that it would just blow the orb up.



Only Bijuu-Dama/FRS style attacks can do that. An attack which uses the raw materials that CT makes use of wouldn't blow it up.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Only Bijuu-Dama/FRS style attacks can do that. An attack which uses the raw materials that CT makes use of wouldn't blow it up.



Anything powerful enough can do that.


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## Sans (Apr 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Only Bijuu-Dama/FRS style attacks can do that. An attack which uses the raw materials that CT makes use of wouldn't blow it up.



Kishimoto took care to note that when Itachi fired his Yasaka Magatama at it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 13, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Anything powerful enough can do that.



Powerful enough = Bijuu-Dama/FRS style attacks.



Komnenos said:


> Kishimoto took care to note that when Itachi fired his Yasaka Magatama at it.



He also took care to illustrate that the Magatama only have power equal to a bunch of explosive tags. So Madara needs more powerful jutsu than Yasaka's Magatama to do anything about CT.


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## Linkdarkside (Apr 13, 2013)

Madara win this ,Susanoo would beat most of pain  bodies, then there Madara big fire ball jutsus which cover a lot of area.


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## blk (Apr 13, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Madara was not distracted. He was surprised. Rinnegan was the only thing that he had to survive that (Aside from PS if he could've resummoned fast), and he doesn't have it here. That's why i said EMS (Or MS) Madara and yeah, they would, i just made a point of why EMS Madara with those jutsus restricted is not an unstoppable force.
> 
> And most of his jutsus (If not all of them) are countered by Pain. Of course, the ones available to him right now.



How was he not distracted? There were hundreds of fodders that kept him from targeting Naruto, Gaara and Onoki.

Naruto, Gaara, Onoki and _hundreds of fodders_ defeated a non-PS EMS Madara, not just the first three.

If there weren't so much fodders in the way, the outcome of that battle might have been different.

Also, there is to consider that Madara is supposed to possess 2 other MS jutsu.

But regardless, i agree that we can't say that a non-PS EMS Madara can beat Pain.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 13, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> My apologies. It still doesn't matter, Kishi told us that Pain Rikudou's moves and speed were completely below Nagato himself. Madara's been portrayed as unstoppable and could toy with the Gokage, even when he didn't resort to Perfect Susano'o and Tajuu Kage Bunshin. He absolutely stomps here.





Komnenos said:


> Conversely, Madara's portrayal and hype has been laid out painstakingly. The Gokage thought they were going up against EMS Madara, and their first response was "well we're boned."



I'm sorry but this is completely false. EMS Madara (without Perfect Susanoo, which is restricted anyway) was getting his shit STOMPED by Tsunade and Onoki. How would he have countered Jinton? He would have been finished after Tsunade punched his right side away since EMS Madara doesn't have Mokuton bunshins. It was the fact they were against an Edo Madara (ie. can't be killed and unlimited chakra) with Mokuton techniques AND the Rinnegan that allowed him to toy with them. 

If it was EMS Madara under these conditions Tsunade and Onoki would be enough to potentially take him out. He might be able to beat Pain, but I really don't see how he completely stomps him without his biggest weapon of Perfect Susanoo.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Powerful enough = Bijuu-Dama/FRS style attacks.



Yeah a 10000 ton rock falling down from the orbit won't generate enough power comparable to those 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He also took care to illustrate that the Magatama only have power equal to a bunch of explosive tags.



lol wtf.

Magatama is not an explosive type attack. 

Gaara's momy defense easily blocked Jokei Boi's explosions yet Madara's unnamed and weaker magatama attack went through it like butter.


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## Rocky (Apr 13, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> lol wtf.
> 
> Magatama is not an explosive type attack.
> 
> Gaara's momy defense easily blocked Jokei Boi's explosions yet Madara's unnamed and weaker magatama attack went through it like butter.



He's saying how Magatama did about as much damage to the cave as explosives did to the ground. Though Magatama is probably a penetrative attack.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 13, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah a 10000 ton rock falling down from the orbit won't generate enough power comparable to those



It is made from the same raw materials CT feeds off.



> Magatama is not an explosive type attack.
> 
> Gaara's momy defense easily blocked Jokei Boi's explosions yet Madara's unnamed and weaker magatama attack went through it like butter.



That's nice, but all the showings of Magatama alone clarify that it does far too little damage to be any threat to CT.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He's saying how Magatama did about as much damage to the cave as explosives did to the ground. Though Magatama is probably a penetrative attack.



Thats what I am saying. Its just the impact blast not the magamata exploding, since you know, it does not explode.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is made from the same raw materials CT feeds off.


Nice rebuttal, doesn't explain how CT stands against such momentum though. 



> That's nice, but all the showings of Magatama alone clarify that it does far too little damage to be any threat to CT.



I highly doubt that. Madara's unnamed single magatama could go through 2 defenses set up by 2 of the kages. 

Itachi's yasaka no magatama should only be stronger. Though it is not a part of our subject.
I just corrected you on the notion that the size of the explosion is irrelevant to Magatama's power since it is not an explosive.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 13, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nice rebuttal, doesn't explain how CT stands against such momentum though.



It is honestly very straightforward: the meteorites are made from the exact raw materials CT uses. All they'll do is contribute to it. 



> I highly doubt that. Madara's unnamed single magatama could go through 2 defenses set up by 2 of the kages.



All Magatama are the same, even the three Magatama, which you call Itachi's, on Tsunade did very little damage compared to FRS and Bijuu Dama.



> Itachi's yasaka no magatama should only be stronger. Though it is not a part of our subject.
> I just corrected you on the notion that the size of the explosion is irrelevant to Magatama's power since it is not an explosive.



You corrected nothing. We saw its power, it is only capable of piercing and creating an explosion like effect. So it is still significantly weaker than the other two jutsu used to destroy CT. In other words Madara has to use more powerful jutsu to stop CT.


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## joshhookway (Apr 13, 2013)

Does Madara have unstabilized Perfect Susanoo. You know, the bird looking thing.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is honestly very straightforward: the meteorites are made from the exact raw materials CT uses. All they'll do is contribute to it.





CT has never been able to pull a chunk of rock as big as that meteor. 

What is going to happen when a meteor with such size and speed crashes into ct ? Become a part of it ? Just like that ? 




> All Magatama are the same, even the three Magatama, which you call Itachi's, on Tsunade did very little damage compared to FRS and Bijuu Dama.


Thats like saying all Susano'o swords are the same, or all the shields susano'o posseses.

Only person who has the imperial regalia is Itachi, so he is the only one who possesses Yasaka no Magatama.




> You corrected nothing. We saw its power, it is only capable of piercing and creating an explosion like effect. So it is still significantly weaker than the other two jutsu used to destroy CT. In other words Madara has to use more powerful jutsu to stop CT.




You compared it to a paper bomb simply by taking the blast effect in to consideration.
I corrected you on it.

Magatama is not an explosive attack, so comparing it to other explosive attacks will be wrong. It is like comparing a bullet to a rocket.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 13, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> CT has never been able to pull a chunk of rock as big as that meteor.
> 
> What is going to happen when a meteor with such size and speed crashes into ct ? Become a part of it ? Just like that ?



From what we've seen, either that or the meteorite will break apart and become part of CT. Just like every other raw material. As I've said before, Madara requires Bijuu-Dama or FRS like jutsu. However the OP restricted those jutsu from him.



> Thats like saying all Susano'o swords are the same, or all the shields susano'o posseses.
> 
> Only person who has the imperial regalia is Itachi, so he is the only one who possesses Yasaka no Magatama.



That is your speculation. We've seen two Susanoo use the same Magatama. Totsuka and Yata, those cases are stronger because Itachi is the only one who shown them thus far. 

The Magatama argument fails because we've seen every Susanoo in this manga use it, even Sasauke whose used a superior version of it.



> Magatama is not an explosive attack, so comparing it to other explosive attacks will be wrong. It is like comparing a bullet to a rocket.



So it is just like a regular object that has penetrative and explosive purposes? Regardless, everything we've seen from it implies it is just a glorified explosive kunai with a lot more fire power when they're joined. Yet comparable when they're separated.

In any case you're stance will falter if you're going to assert it is a Bijuu-Dama/FRS level jutsu. So as I've stated a few times now, those are the sort of jutsu Madara need; not jutsu that are weak in comparison such as the Magatama.

Now Madara has shown such jutsu, but they're not allowed ITT.

EDIT

Well it seems CT was banned too. So disregard this discussion.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 14, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> From what we've seen, either that or the meteorite will break apart and become part of CT. Just like every other raw material. As I've said before, Madara requires Bijuu-Dama or FRS like jutsu. However the OP restricted those jutsu from him.



Yeah no.

Look, even if you are talking about CT in its full glory, like the size of the one which trapped Kn6, meteor will annihilate it.

Just try to imagine the speed and weight of the meteor.





> That is your speculation. We've seen two Susanoo use the same Magatama. Totsuka and Yata, those cases are stronger because Itachi is the only one who shown them thus far.
> 
> The Magatama argument fails because we've seen every Susanoo in this manga use it, even Sasauke whose used a superior version of it.



Its not speculation. 

If you think all magatama are the same, then you should believe all susano'o swords and shields are the same as well.



> So it is just like a regular object that has penetrative and explosive purposes? Regardless, everything we've seen from it implies it is just a glorified explosive kunai with a lot more fire power when they're joined. Yet comparable when they're separated.



I think you don't get it.
Magatama is a piercing attack. Exploding tag explodes.

Do you think an exploding tag can pierce through Gaara's momy defense + Onoki's rock golem ?



> In any case you're stance will falter if you're going to assert it is a Bijuu-Dama/FRS level jutsu. So as I've stated a few times now, those are the sort of jutsu Madara need; not jutsu that are weak in comparison such as the Magatama.



In terms of explosive power obviously not, but then Bijuudama is much stronger than FRS in that regard so I am not sure how you manage to group up those two like that.

But going by feats a single magatama has shown that it can almost pierce through Gaara's & Onoki's defenses combined together, which should be weaker in comparison to Itachi's Yasaka no Magatama.
What is the best piercing feat of FRS ?


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## Joakim3 (Apr 14, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah no.
> 
> Look, even if you are talking about CT in its full glory, like the size of the one which trapped Kn6, meteor will annihilate it.
> 
> Just try to imagine the speed and weight of the meteor.



The CT sphere that Tendo had to encase KN6 makes _Tengai Shinsei_ look like child's play. The sphere encompassed a mountain range for christ sake.....and this was *before* Nagato was planning on enlarging it to contain KN8

We have no idea if the CT would tear the meteors apart due to tidal forces or they'd slam into each other.... fuse... and only worsen the problem for Madara


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 14, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> The CT sphere that Tendo had to encase KN6 makes _Tengai Shinsei_ look like child's play. The sphere encompassed a mountain range for christ sake.....and this was *before* Nagato was planning on enlarging it to contain KN8
> 
> We have no idea if the CT would tear the meteors apart due to tidal forces or they'd slam into each other.... fuse... and only worsen the problem for Madara



The meteor doesn't seem much smaller  encompassed a mountain range
though I may be wrong.


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## Joakim3 (Apr 14, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The meteor doesn't seem much smaller  encompassed a mountain range
> though I may be wrong.



Look at PS & _Tengai Shinsei_ height to surrounding mountains,  
and then look at the area they encompass next to the mountain range in the background

This is what CT did to a mountain range of similar size.... the sphere/crater would engulf the the entire foreground if ground zero was place where PS & the meteors where

..... and this is discounting a weakened Nagato stating he can make it significantly bigger


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