# Princess Kaguya and Rikudou's Tribe Became the Uzumaki Clan



## CuteJuubi (Sep 11, 2013)

Like I have said before, the Rikudou Sennin was born from a woman and had a father, unlike other's assumption that he was a god who descended into the world without relatives:



Rikudou Sennin/Hagoromo Ootsuki's mother was a Princess: 



A princess of what during ancient times? a tribe: 



Kaguya and her tribe were probably the shamanic guardians (albeit non-ninjutsu wielders) of the God-Tree:



That is why she had direct knowledge and access to the tree and its fruit:



Like I've said, tribes/clans were already in existence even before the Shinobi Era:



I believe that when Rikudou/Hagoromo Ootsuki started the Shinobi Era, he converted his and his mother's tribe members and kindred into the modern Shinobi-Era Clan.

Which became the Uzumaki Clan: 



It only proves Kushina's statement that the Uzumaki Clan were distant blood relatives, they descended not directly from Rikudou Sennin like the Senju and Uchiha but from Rikudou/Hagoromo's kindred

Some will insist that the Uzumaki Clan descended from the Younger Son only but this isn't true because the Younger Son's descendants were specified to have been the Senjus only: 



And only during a later time that the Elder and Younger Son's descendants were called the Senjus and Uchihas.It's just the same with the Elder and Younger Sons of Rikudou, the Elder was (First Name) Ootsuki while the Younger was (First Name) Ootsuki but their descendants became the Uchihas and Senjus, even if they weren't called Uchihas and Senjus, the Elder Son was an Uchiha because he was the Uchiha Ancestor while the Younger Son was the Senju Ancestor, same thing with the Uzumaki Clan: Hagoromo Ootsuki's Tribesmen/Kinsmen were the Progenitor Uzumakis making Rikudou and his kin the First Uzumakis. 

I firmly believe that Princess Kaguya/Hagoromo's Tribe were the Progenitor Uzumakis aka the first Uzumakis, they may have had the surname Ootsutsuki, but most probably during the dawn of the New Era aka Shinobi Era their Tribe became the Uzumaki Tribe.

Which only makes sense for Rikudou/Hagoromo to reincarnate himself from his own tribe kindred: 

Viz


Naruto Uzumaki


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## Aging Boner (Sep 11, 2013)

yeah...ok. 

Now, about that tree...

Final Villain material, mos def.


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## Tony Lou (Sep 12, 2013)

I can't believe he still tried to come up with a way to say that RS = Uzumaki.


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## Azula (Sep 12, 2013)

Rikudo= Uzumaki theory still lives? 

Btw there was no mention of rikudo's father


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## Jeαnne (Sep 12, 2013)

Looks like that tablet had a lot of information regarding Rikudou, even about his mom , maybe it was from the Uzumaki Shrine, even if they couldnt read it... and the Uchiha stole/inherited it


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## DraconianMithril (Sep 12, 2013)

Wasn't the Hagoromo clan teamed up with the Uchiha clan? Now the sage's name is Hagoromo?


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## Sifus (Sep 12, 2013)

No...............just no


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## vered (Sep 12, 2013)

Its been already said in the manga that the Uzumakis are distant relatives of the Senjus.
They did come from the younger brother line which had perhaps many sub clans as time progressed.
This chapter just confirmed that RS and his mother  were called Ootsutsuki,had no direct connection to a clan of whatever kind and no clan was mentioned to even exist at their time.Ninjas didnt exist back then and it was Hagoromo to be the first person in history to be born with chakra/tree power in his body and later taught humanity the secrets of ninjutsu of chakra. Unlike what you presented before, RS's initial power was not as a result of him being Uzumaki, but as a direct result of his mother eating the fruit of the Shinjuu. later on, his power split in half between his sons whos lines,generations later,produced the Senjuu clan and Uchiha Clan with perhaps more clans in between as time passed.RS changing the name of his family  to Uzumaki makes no sense or else it would have been mentioned by him on the Uchiha tablet or by Madara/Obito in all their history lessons.
As of this moment Kishi made clear that Naruto may be RS reincarnation,inheritor of will,whatever you like,but he made no mention of RS(Hagoromo) being an Uzumaki or having a clan which later changed his name to Uzumaki.


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## CuteJuubi (Sep 12, 2013)

vered said:


> Its been already said in the manga that the Uzumakis are distant relatives of the Senjus.
> They did come from the younger brother line which had perhaps many sub clans as time progressed.



Incorrect, it was clearly stated that the Younger Son's descendants were the Senjus only:



Rikudou and his kinsmen were the progenitor Uzumakis aka the founders of the Uzumaki Clan, to insist that the Uzumaki Clan are merely descendants of the Younger Son is a falsity.



Jeαnne said:


> Looks like that tablet had a lot of information regarding Rikudou, even about his mom , maybe it was from the Uzumaki Shrine, even if they couldnt read it... and the Uchiha stole/inherited it



Nah, but the Tablet was definitely the catalyst for the Shinigami Mask to unseal the Shiki Fuujin, that is the true reason why Sasuke and co. went to the Naka Shrine.


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## Tony Lou (Sep 12, 2013)

CuteJuubi said:


> Incorrect, it was clearly stated that the Younger Son's descendants were the Senjus only:
> 
> 
> 
> Rikudou and his kinsmen were the progenitor Uzumakis aka the founders of the Uzumaki Clan, to insist that the Uzumaki Clan are merely descendants of the Younger Son is a falsity.



From an Uzumaki herself.

[sp=I don't know how to use tags][/sp]

My cousins weren't born from my parents but they still are my blood relatives.

It's common sense. If the Uzumaki are related to the Senju, it's absurd to say they already existed long before the latter did.

If they were such an ancient clan we would've been informed when Kushina told her son about them.

And of course, as descendants of Rikudou's two sons, Uchiha and Senju already are as directly related to him as possible.


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## alcoholmixture (Sep 12, 2013)

I rate it 5 stars for your efforts, even though I don't share your opinions).
You are unbelievable really.


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## Jeαnne (Sep 12, 2013)

what puzzles me the most is...does it even mather?

I mean, wouldnt Naruto be as much of a Rikudou reincarnation if he was indeed related to a clan that came from one of Rikudou's heirs?

Now, i will tell you one thing: Hagomoro is not the end of the parallel.

THIS, is the most important thing about this chapter.

If you search about Kaguya, you will be surprised about what it could mean. Kaguya means "sparkling night", she is the princess of eternal night, princess of the moon in the myth. There is a number of other animes and mangas that have used this myth as reference and i can tell you one thing: nothing about Kaguya makes reference to what Rikudou believed or represents, actually, she is the opposite.

Everything about Kaguya points at Yin, while everything about Rikudou points at Yang. 

Kaguya - shinto(Uchiha), female, night, moon, power is might.
Hagomoro - buddhism(Senju), male, day, sun, love is might.

Every piece is a yin and yang in itself, but inside of the bigger picture, becomes a half to form a greater part so, at this rate, considering what Kishi has followed as a pattern, and made Naruto Rikudou's reincarnation, nothing will stop him from giving a Yin counterpart to him.


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## ShadowReij (Sep 12, 2013)

vered said:


> Its been already said in the manga that the Uzumakis are distant relatives of the Senjus.
> They did come from the younger brother line which had perhaps many sub clans as time progressed.
> This chapter just confirmed that RS and his mother  were called Ootsutsuki,had no direct connection to a clan of whatever kind and no clan was mentioned to even exist at their time.Ninjas didnt exist back then and it was Hagoromo to be the first person in history to be born with chakra/tree power in his body and later taught humanity the secrets of ninjutsu of chakra. Unlike what you presented before, RS's initial power was not as a result of him being Uzumaki, but as a direct result of his mother eating the fruit of the Shinjuu. later on, his power split in half between his sons whos lines,generations later,produced the Senjuu clan and Uchiha Clan with perhaps more clans in between as time passed.RS changing the name of his family  to Uzumaki makes no sense or else it would have been mentioned by him on the Uchiha tablet or by Madara/Obito in all their history lessons.
> As of this moment Kishi made clear that Naruto may be RS reincarnation,inheritor of will,whatever you like,but he made no mention of RS(Hagoromo) being an Uzumaki or having a clan which later changed his name to Uzumaki.



And we're done.

Glad RS wasn't an Uzumaki, granted it wouldn't have made sense if he was an Uzumaki yet somehow only the Senju were related to him and not the Uchiha.


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## Jeαnne (Sep 12, 2013)

CuteJuubi said:


> Nah, but the Tablet was *definitely* the catalyst for the Shinigami Mask to unseal the Shiki Fuujin, that is the true reason why Sasuke and co. went to the Naka Shrine.



and this the reason why people are coming after you now with this chapter. 

Theory =/= fact.

This is a theory of yours. A good one, but a theory. Yet you are exposing it as a fact, while ignoring so many stronger hints that point otherwise.

Keep in mind, its not about they not using the tablet for the shinigami, but about they using it for more than just this.

I mean, it doesnt take a genius to figure out. Hashirama has just been proven as someone who doesnt know everything, and Orochimaru claimed that the nakano shrine room was the place where all secrets slumber, and Sasuke said that the important was underneath. Now we have Madara revealing such key informations, all of which are in the tablet and he could read enough of it with EMS.

Yet, you prefer to believe that they solemnly ignored the tablet, while they were fully aware of the fact that the secrets are written there? Really.

It feels like your mind is so focused in the idea that Uzumaki stuff is related to the tablet because of Rikudou, that you are ignoring about everything regarding the real plot that lead Orochimaru and Sasuke there. The plot that lead them there was a quest for information, to ignore a source of information that they were aware of and claimed that was the one that hold the secrets even while they were going there...is absurd.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Sep 12, 2013)

CuteJuubi said:


> Rikudou and his kinsmen were the progenitor Uzumakis aka the founders of the Uzumaki Clan, *to insist that the Uzumaki Clan are merely descendants of the Younger Son is a falsity*.


Then Madara, Zetsu, and Kishi are some lying bastards.


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## Yuna (Sep 12, 2013)

CuteJuubi said:


> Which only makes sense for Rikudou/Hagoromo to reincarnate himself from his own tribe kindred:
> 
> Viz
> 
> ...


This reincarnation theory is stupid.

You do realize that during that same fight, in a flashback, Hagoromo told the Bijuu that one day, a young man will be born and he'll lead the Bijuu down the right path, right? What the Bijuu are saying is "Naruto is the boy he told us about".


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## Klue (Sep 12, 2013)

Why does it even matter? :sanji


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## Addy (Sep 12, 2013)

you have yet to counter one simple point. 

princess *ootsuki *kaguya ate the fruit.

*ootsuki *Hagoromo was RS and defeated juubi.

*senju *and *uchiha *were created from the two sons.

*senju *and *uzumaki *are related but not *uchiha *and *uzumaki *even though *senju *and *uchiha *build konoha together. infact, kushina never even mentioned uchiha 

and more importantly......... HOW COME KYUUBI DOESN'T SAY SHIT ABOUT UZUMAKI CLAN TO NARUTO? 

the mother of RS was mentioned in the tablet and her clan too; and the uchiha and senju were mentioned in the tablet too. so, my question is............ why are the uzumaki clan not mentioned AT ALL in the tablet?.

the ONLY possible place uzumaki could have existed is either as:

1- the guy kaguya fucked to give birth to RS. 
2- the woman RS fucked to give birth to RS sons. 

either way, uzumaki are irrelevant to the story aside from one thing........... fuck buddies 

example of uzumaki relevance......... uzumaki mito to hashirama's backstory about building konoha. fuck buddies and nothing more.


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## Wrath (Sep 12, 2013)

Hilarious. There's dignity in just admitting you were wrong, you know?


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Sep 12, 2013)

CuteJuubi said:


> [sp]Like I have said before, the Rikudou Sennin was born from a woman and had a father, unlike other's assumption that he was a god who descended into the world without relatives:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LMFAO, the Manga PROVED exactly what you and so many others should have know. THE SAGE WAS NOT ORIGINALLY AN UZUMAKI BECAUSE THAT IS BROTHER CLAN TO THE SENJU FORM THE SAGE'S YOUNGER SON LMAO...

I mean, come on! The whole basis of this theory is that naruto must be the reincarnation of the sage himself and is an uzumaki. Thus, the sage must have been an uzumaki as well originally despute all the contradicting evidence that explains Uzumaki as a brother clan to the senju from the younger son of the sage's bloodline...

ANd IN FACT, Uzumaki was made=senju just so the curse of the Uchiha Vs senju, which has been the premise of the whole part 2, could be done between naruto and sasuke. and not be like, wait, naruto is not a Senju... But he is because Uzumaki are senju form the bloodline of the younger son of the sage.

CONCLUSION:
Uzumaki=Senju coming from the younger son of the sage while the sage's original calm was the Oomatsutsuki so just accept it..


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## Danzio (Sep 12, 2013)

Klue said:


> Why does it even matter? :sanji



Because he made a career out of  Rikudo= Uzumaki 


I love your spin, OP. Great dedication.


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## Addy (Sep 12, 2013)

ForeverLove said:


> Rikudo= Uzumaki theory still lives?
> 
> Btw there was no mention of rikudo's father



RS father could be uzumaki but he was so irrelavent that he wasn't even mentioned at all as with mito in hashirama's story.  

do you see where i am going with this? RS might be uzumaki or created it but that clan is almost hyuuga clan relevance compared to uchiha and senju. not even a third player but more as a substitute to senju vs uchiha struggle and that is only true because the MC is uzumaki and not because an uzumaki is MC if you get what i mean.


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## Shakar (Sep 12, 2013)

You didn't cry and bitch, I can give you that. 

But now stop. There's nothing bad about being wrong about a manga.


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## Csdabest (Sep 12, 2013)

Here is how I potentially see it.

Kaguya and her family ate the fruit first. had her child withsomeone. Possibly from the Hyuuga Clan. And gave birth to Hagoromo.

Kaguya-Her family and relatives after learning about chakra became the Kaguya clan. They probably unlocked some type of genetic marker.

Kaguya Husband- Most likely has family ties to the hyuuga clan. When they learned chakra and possible unlocked their genetic marker via chakra they gained the Byakugan

Hagaromo was blessed with a strong body from Kaguya clan and eyes to see chakra from his fathers clan.(They are just names and family who are related to. And probably became clans based off of their ancestors. So it possible Hagaromo father was named Hyuuga, He was born as the first sage who discovered everything behind ninjutsu, chakra, physical energies, and spiritual energies. 

Im pretty sure Hagaromo parents families kept ties and still mated after words. Their decendents became known as the Hagaromo clan.

I also have the feeling that Hagaromo Clan is possibly Juugo clan. No reasoning behind it. But i just feel it happening. 

Since Sasuke is about to take fore front and that information was just revealed.And Kaguya and Hagaromo being the ancestors of shinobi and also current clan names. I wouldn't be surprised if we found out Juugo clan lineage and if kimimaro is connected to Juugo clan. Because for some reason Kimimaro was capable of controling Juugo power just as good as Sasuke and himself. And was able to subdue juugo.

I dunno there not enough information but Im sure everything will be connected soon


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## Moloko (Sep 12, 2013)

This is no new theory. It's been established that the Uchiha are descended from the Rikudou's elder son and the Senju are descended from the younger son. The Uzumaki clan are mentioned as 'cousins' of the Senju implying that they split from the main branch family at some point to start their own clan in the Land of Whirlpools but share a common ancestor.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 12, 2013)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> Then Madara, Zetsu, and Kishi are some lying bastards.



He can come from the Senju family line, but still have Uzumaki blood. Remember, Uzumaki and Senju used to marry one-another.


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## DeK3iDE (Sep 12, 2013)

for the ppl in need of a genealogy lesson, the Uzumaki came about by someone from the Senju line mating with someone outside of those 2 bloodlines.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 12, 2013)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> for the ppl in need of a genealogy lesson, the Uzumaki came about by someone from the Senju line mating with someone outside of those 2 bloodlines.



You don't know how the Uzumaki came about. Again, it is worth noting that an Uzumaki seal enhanced becomes exactly the same one that Hagoromo used on the Juubi.

Might be one piece of evidence, but it is a very powerful piece of evidence. With decent support such as how Hashirama, someone who married an Uzumaki, was able to use the Hagoromo's seal. As Minato and Kushina have shown, Uzumaki wouldn't mind teaching certain people close to them their sealing jutsu.


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## Addy (Sep 12, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He can come from the Senju family line, but still have Uzumaki blood. Remember, Uzumaki and Senju used to marry one-another.



and why isn't the uzumaki clan mentioned on the tablet? 

the clan RS's mother is mentioned but never uzumaki and no one in the story so far comes from that clan.

and how come kyuubi never mentions this especially after he and naruto became friends?

but even all that away, why don't uchiha and uzumaki have any relationship in the first place?


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## DeK3iDE (Sep 12, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You don't know how the Uzumaki came about. Again, it is worth noting that an Uzumaki seal enhanced becomes exactly the same one that Hagoromo used on the Juubi.
> 
> Might be one piece of evidence, but it is a very powerful piece of evidence. With decent support such as how Hashirama, someone who married an Uzumaki, was able to use the Hagoromo's seal. As Minato and Kushina have shown, Uzumaki wouldn't mind teaching certain people close to them their sealing jutsu.


uhhh, it was stated that the Uzumaki were distant relatives of the Senju, Rikudou only produced 2 children, and Rikudou was an only child. Do the fucking math


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## Maunten (Sep 12, 2013)

ForeverLove said:


> Rikudo= Uzumaki theory still lives?
> 
> Btw there was no mention of rikudo's father



Immaculate conception. 

Princess was impregnated by the ori

Rikudo was the oricy

Naruto is the second coming, Daniel will get here just in time with an axe.


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## slumpy (Sep 12, 2013)

I do believe there is more of a relation between Uzimaku and RS, then just senju linage, like some people despartly claim

The Uzimaku doesnt fit in the line with senju and Uchiha. Senju resemble the body of the juubi (tree) and uchiha the eyes. This hint and paralel are pretty clear and obvious.

What we know about the Uzimaku (they are an ancient clan, natural born with special chakra!!!), could be a hint. There are allot of hints with in the panel with them, being monks or religish. And most of all specialised in sealing technicks.

Kishi is purpsly holding back info on the uzimaku clan, why would he do that? Why wait with that plot?

and most of all why doesnt he give hints with naruto and resembling the body of the juubi (the tree and senju) and going directly to the RS. Even his mothers chakra chains are used by a rinningan user.

also this page:




speaks of two boys. Maybe he transferd his eyes and body powers to the youngs (who where each others brothers), but the sons of the Sage?


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## Abz (Sep 12, 2013)

Cutejuubi.... I dunno...but...the manga itself just proved you wrong this week....don't throw yourself into another hole by still trying to make RS=uzumaki...when it stated quite clearly that his name was completely different...

Yes they inherited the sealing jutsu but they are still a brother clan of the original hiers.... The senju

...plus what you are putting forward is only theories ...not facts


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## slumpy (Sep 12, 2013)

Abz said:


> Cutejuubi.... I dunno...but...the manga itself just proved you wrong this week....don't through yourself into another hole by still trying to make RS=uzumaki...when it stated quite clearly that his name was completely different...
> 
> Yes they inherited the sealing jutsu but they are still a brother clan of the original hiers.... The senju
> 
> ...plus what you are putting forward is only theories ...not facts



where is this proven?

Also tell me: why would kishi keep naruto out of the picture and resembles with the senju? 

Because Uzimaku = RS still fighting vs Uchiha = hatred part of the Juubi (eyes)


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## Addy (Sep 12, 2013)

slumpy said:


> I do believe there is more of a relation between Uzimaku and RS, then just senju linage, like some people despartly claim


RS had two children and was a lonely child. i don't see how he had more children or more brothers unless he cheated on his wife or his mother cheated on her husband or the guy who wrote it never heard of his brothers or "third son".  and why change the name of their clan to uzumaki?  at least senju and uchiha changed names because the original brothers formed their own clans to fight each other and were at odds with each other. so, again, why change the name of their clan to uzumaki? :

and just another thing:

1- nagato and itachi. pair of uzumaki and uchiha.
2- naruto and sasuke. pair of uzumaki and uchiha.
3- hashirama and madara. pair of senju and uchiha.

do you see what happened? uzumaki and senju are interchangeable,. especially, in the last two. 

honorable mention is karin and sasuke if oro planned these two to bunk each other and produce an RS because karin is uzumaki and oro knew that they are senju but lets not go there 



> The Uzimaku doesnt fit in the line with senju and Uchiha. Senju resemble the body of the juubi (tree) and uchiha the eyes. This hint and paralel are pretty clear and obvious.



uzumaki have longevity. doesn't that fit the theme of a "strong body"?  and kushina can restrain bijuu like hashirama could do. 



> What we know about the Uzimaku (they are an ancient clan, natural born with special chakra!!!), could be a hint. *There are allot of hints with in the panel with them, being monks or religish*.


no, there are not that much panels of them. we get that one or two pages with kushina explaining them and that is it.


> And most of all specialised in sealing technicks.


so?  they also specialized in wind jutsu which is irrelevant 



> Kishi is purpsly holding back info on the uzimaku clan, why would he do that? Why wait with that plot?



purposely hiding what? he treated senju the same treatment believe it or not. we don't know what happened to the clan, and all we know are hashirama and tobirama (a select few). however, uchiha get a lot of history and relevance. not some ancient stuff but more hax, more abilities and more current time relevance.

the only thing kishi is holding back is how uzumaki were defeated which we may or may not see since kishi thought that kushina's love story > uzumaki's death. 



> *and most of all why doesnt he give hints with naruto and resembling the body of the juubi (the tree and senju) and going directly to the RS. Even his mothers chakra chains are used by a rinningan user.*



the rennigan is the power of senju and uchiha combined. uzumaki are of senju lineage and hashirama can also retrain bijuu. do the math.


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## Addy (Sep 12, 2013)

slumpy said:


> where is this proven?
> 
> Also tell me: why would kishi keep naruto out of the picture and resembles with the senju?
> 
> Because Uzimaku = RS still fighting vs Uchiha = hatred part of the Juubi (eyes)



resembles senju......... because he is descendant from them...... uchiha and uzumaki are not even in the same sentence together even if supposedly the former are descendants of the later........ 

find me the link between uchiha and uzumaki and then we can talk........


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## NW (Sep 12, 2013)

He hasn't been proven wrong, but he hasn't been proven right either.

Though, Bagoromo being an Uzumaki is certainly still possible, given the OP.

Also, we might not even know what the Rinnegan section of the tablet tells about yet.

The stuff about the Juubi being a tree and Kaguya seem to only be from the MS section (unless Sasuke knew all this for years...) as Madara is implied to have read it before he told Hashirama he was leaving the village.


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## DeK3iDE (Sep 12, 2013)

Fusion said:


> He hasn't been proven wrong, but he hasn't been proven right either.
> 
> Though, Bagoromo being an Uzumaki is certainly still possible, given the OP.


if it was possible, wouldn't he and his mother's surname be Uzumaki then and not Ootsutsuki?


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## T-Bag (Sep 12, 2013)

u uzumaki believers keep failing


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## CuteJuubi (Sep 12, 2013)

It's just the same with the Elder and Younger Sons of Rikudou, the Elder was (First Name) Ootsuki while the Younger was (First Name) Ootsuki but their descendants became the Uchihas and Senjus, even if they weren't called Uchihas and Senjus, the Elder Son was an Uchiha because he was the Uchiha Ancestor while the Younger Son was the Senju Ancestor, same thing with the Uzumaki Clan: Hagoromo Ootsuki's Tribesmen/Kinsmen were the Progenitor Uzumakis making Rikudou and his kin the First Uzumakis.


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## HoriMaori (Sep 12, 2013)

T-Bag said:


> u uzumaki believers keep failing



This. When it was revealed that Rikudo was an Ootsutsuki and NOT an Uzumaki, cue damage control from the RS = Uzumaki believers.



CuteJuubi said:


> It's just the same with the Elder and Younger Sons of Rikudou, the Elder was (First Name) Ootsuki while the Younger was (First Name) Ootsuki but their descendants became the Uchihas and Senjus, even if they weren't called Uchihas and Senjus, the Elder Son was an Uchiha because he was the Uchiha Ancestor while the Younger Son was the Senju Ancestor, same thing with the Uzumaki Clan: Hagoromo Ootsuki's Tribesmen/Kinsmen were the Progenitor Uzumakis making Rikudou and his kin the First Uzumakis.



No. It means that the Uchiha/Senju are a combonation of Ootsutsuki and their mothers' genes. That does not make the Ootsutsuki either Uchiha or Senju, but the precursor. That's like saying Scott Summers is a Grey because his son is one.


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## santanico (Sep 12, 2013)

In this case, the entire ninja population are descendants of RS, Naruto isn't _that _special


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## slumpy (Sep 13, 2013)

Addy said:


> RS had two children and was a lonely child. i don't see how he had more children or more brothers unless he cheated on his wife or his mother cheated on her husband or the guy who wrote it never heard of his brothers or "third son".  and why change the name of their clan to uzumaki?  at least senju and uchiha changed names because the original brothers formed their own clans to fight each other and were at odds with each other. so, again, why change the name of their clan to uzumaki? :



I dont understand your point? Ofcourse there are zillions of options why RS =/ Uzimaku, same as why RS=Uzimaku.

There are know manga proof for a certain theory, also there is no proof that he is not.



> and just another thing:
> 
> 1- nagato and itachi. pair of uzumaki and uchiha.
> 2- naruto and sasuke. pair of uzumaki and uchiha.
> ...



No I dont see your point, because

Itachi and Nagato where not rivals. They where pared together because they are the only 2 friends and supporters of naruto!!!! That's it. They are connected to naruto.

Sasuke and naruto could resemble uchiha vs senju. But with recent chapter, and seeing the many hints between naruto and RS. sasuke can resemble the juubi: a creature that was born, to great vengance = birth of the curse of hatred, Is still seen in the awakening of the sharingan (emotional lost same as the three lost her fruit= juubi).




> honorable mention is karin and sasuke if oro planned these two to bunk each other and produce an RS because karin is uzumaki and oro knew that they are senju but lets not go there




That are different translation, second of all: It tobi who mentions the charastics of the Uzimaku, and I dont see the resembling in the point that everything is senju vs uchiha. Because according to that logic: Everyone with not sharingan or Huuyga, is senju related. But How come there are no more eye powers in the world? 



> uzumaki have longevity. doesn't that fit the theme of a "strong body"?  and kushina can restrain bijuu like hashirama could do.



Why does Obito uses the same chakra strings (wich he needs the rinningan for) as Kushina?



> no, there are not that much panels of them. we get that one or two pages with kushina explaining them and that is it.
> 
> so?  they also specialized in wind jutsu which is irrelevant



Why is it irrelevant? Why do they have deathgod jutsu's and sealing mask that can thake back the souls from the deathgod, that is some advanged jutsu shit.




> purposely hiding what? he treated senju the same treatment believe it or not. we don't know what happened to the clan, and all we know are hashirama and tobirama (a select few). however, uchiha get a lot of history and relevance. not some ancient stuff but more hax, more abilities and more current time relevance.
> 
> the only thing kishi is holding back is how uzumaki were defeated which we may or may not see since kishi thought that kushina's love story > uzumaki's death.
> 
> the rennigan is the power of senju and uchiha combined. uzumaki are of senju lineage and hashirama can also retrain bijuu. do the math.



He is hidding it. Why only explain the rival of the Hero of this stories history?
No kishi will explain what that special chakra is, and why people where interessted in it. Also the acient clan oro invested (is uzimaku).

Yes and perfect senju = tree powers and perfect uchiha is eye powers. And juubi is a giant tree with an eye. So senju and Uchiha have there powers separated from the juubi's powers. The hatred from the juubi is transmitted through the eye powers(sharingan!!!!), so where will this go?

So how does uzimaku (main charecter!!!!) fit in this picture?  He doenst he is not senju, there is never been a clear statement that naruto is the same as senju.

The only thing we have is

hashirama and madara's bond resemble naruto and sasuke. But Jiryaia and oro, saratobi and danzou. Kakashi and obito, lee and neij etc


PS:

I DONT state that RS= uzimaku. I only say that Uzimaku = not youngest/senju. Maybe it is the former clan of Kashira and they are the first that learned ninjutsu and RS religion etc and there secret was to protect those secrets. There are more possibilities. 

But people that dont want naruto to be from something that is not directly related to uchiha-mythology, need to come with better and good arguments. because the manga is filled with hints between naruto and RS.

And naruto is rs reincarnated is to easy. The last time naruto looked like someone, and every compared him what that person turned out to be his dead. Now where will the next hint go...


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## ?_Camorra_? (Sep 13, 2013)

I think in the end Uzumaki will be unique on their own. Yeah the Senju is tied to them but we don't know how exactly.


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## KawaiiKyuubi (Sep 13, 2013)

Younger Son wasn't "Senju" straight away, there was plenty of time for a separate clan to form of his descendants, who shared family but not ideological ties, and so they became more spiritual and monk-like (Uzumaki) as opposed to the militant Senju. Or several other possibilities, but that's my favourite so far. 

However, since Uzumaki are stated in the manga, several times, to be related to Senju but ever to Uchiha, it stands to reason that they are not the clan that spawned both. 

Sometimes it's time to just say "Oh well, I was wrong". I liked your theory, even believed it to an extent, but it's pretty clear that you were wrong.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Sep 13, 2013)

KawaiiKyuubi said:


> Younger Son wasn't "Senju" straight away, there was plenty of time for a separate clan to form of his descendants, who shared family but not ideological ties, and so they became more spiritual and monk-like (Uzumaki) as opposed to the militant Senju. Or several other possibilities, but that's my favourite so far.
> 
> However, since Uzumaki are stated in the manga, several times, to be related to Senju but ever to Uchiha, it stands to reason that they are not the clan that spawned both.
> 
> Sometimes it's time to just say "Oh well, I was wrong". I liked your theory, even believed it to an extent, but it's pretty clear that you were wrong.



It could mean that Uzumaki was a clan like Otsutsuki but then the Senju clan got mixed with it.That's why the Uzumaki are related to Senju but not to Uchiha.
Second thing, the Uzumaki are connected to the Death god who is another god diety similar to Juubi.
If Juubi is the god of life and the one that bestows chakra then the Shinigami is the god who can take the life away or seal the souls/chakra permanently.


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## Hero of Shadows (Sep 13, 2013)

starr said:


> In this case, the entire ninja population are descendants of RS, Naruto isn't _that _special



So ... ?

Naruto already got the most powerful demon/nature spirit Kurama sealed into him at birth we knew he was special from chapter 1.

Anyways back to the Uzumaki and RS and Kaguya:

The Japanese have a custom regarding family names after marriage, if the man is marrying a woman from a more upper class/powerful/influential family he will in fact take on his bride's name(being adopted into her family). 

The closest we've seen is Naruto himself he was given his mother's surname for the practical reason of shielding him from his father's enemies (never mind that the Uzumaki name is special as well and we've never seen anybody willing to jump on Minato's relatives but whatever)

Coincidentally this would have been the case in RL Japan as well as the Uzumaki an old and royal clan would trump the Namikaze clan (who besides Minato are fodder and we never see them).

So even if the man who married Kaguya was a Uzumaki that's it his child with Kaguya will take Ootsutsuki as his name.

As we know of no other children of RS besides the Elder and the Younger who would have taken Kaguya's last name and they would not have considered themselves Uzumaki.

Scenario I

The Uzumaki clan, the non powered normal humans Uzumaki, would generations after RS gain chakra by interbreeding with either the Elder or Younger's son descendants  just like every non Uchiha or Senju ninja clan.

Thus the Uzumaki clan wouldn't have been extra special as the powered (strong life force seal) Uzumaki would be a later addition with the Uzumaki who actually interacted with Kaguya and RS having been just a normal Joe with his son (RS) having taken his mother's name as it was more important.

That is if this Uzumaki existed at all which is very far from being proven.

Scenario II

We don't know the identity of Kaguya's baby daddy he's again just some random Joe and RS was given Ootsutsuki as he rightfully should.

RS goes on to have 2 sons.

Those 2 sons go on to have children of their own for generations.

Eventually some (or all) of the descendants of the elder son are numerous enough to be a clan but by this time they have dropped the name Ootsutsuki and have taken on the Uchiha name.

On the younger son's side a similar parallel process has taken place with 
some (or all) having taken the Senju name.

End of canon info as you will agree.

Start of theory:

Now I posit to you that in fact only some of the younger brother's descendants organized under the Senju banner with yet other formed their own clan with their own tecniques and abilities and named themselves Uzumaki.


tl;dr version 

Even if there was a Uzumaki clan before Kaguya they would have lacked everything (strong life force seals) that make the Uzumaki unique and they would have had to aquire them as all the other clans have (studying ninjutsu breeding with RS's descendants) so they were in effect equal to the Uchiha and Senju.

We already know that RS's descendants dumped the Ootsutsuki name and came up with 2 new ones (Uchiha and Senju) why not a third (Uzumaki) ?


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Sep 13, 2013)

It's not impossible for the Ootsutsuki to have become the Uzumaki. But there is also no reason for it either. 

Indications are that the Uzumaki are a branch off from the Senju or the same larger clan that the Senju originate from. What is clear is that at least the Senju, Uzumaki, and Uchiha all descend from the Royal Ootsutsuki bloodline. Considering the names the Hagoromo and Kaguya clans may also descend or at least be associated with them.

I don't think that it's logical for the Ootsutsuki to have continued on as a monolith when the two new leaders of the family split along an ideological divide. If I'm looking at this logically, the younger son was the chosen heir. The elder son felt he should have been and was slighted. The family would've split along whoever they felt was the right one (to cite a real world parallel it's not unlike the Shia-Sunni divide {_God forgive me if I start a flame war over this}_). It really doesn't make sense for there to have been a segment that just plodded along without a leader. Royal lines really don't work like that, and neither does religious succession. One King, One Pope. Another example of fragmentation the Roman Empire. Which first divided in two, and then the Western Roman Empire broke up into many pieces.

In short, all three clans are Ootsutsuki a thousand years removed.

Now the idea that the Ootsutsuki were the caretakers and temple keepers of the Shinju is compelling as she would've had immediate access, but I feel that would've been a detail worth sharing. The story told indicates that she was a princess not a priestess. 

But there was nothing inherently special about the Ootsutsuki, which is why she ate the fruit.



Dragonus Nesha said:


> Then Madara, Zetsu, and Kishi are some lying bastards.



Ball Game.

POST #9889


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## NarutoShion4ever (Sep 13, 2013)

The major point in favour of the Rikudo=Uzumaki hypothesis was how it tied lots of loose ends together, and would provide some world-building.

The major point against the Rikudo=Uzumaki hypothesis is that Kishimoto doesn't care about either loose ends nor world-building.

Accept your defeat and move on.

***

If this chapter proved anything it's that Kishimoto doesn't care about either the Senju clan nor the Uzumaki clan. We're back at the point during the Invasion of Pain arc with Naruto as the substitute for a Senju. This isn't even about Kishimoto creating options for himself, this is about Kishimoto procrastinating on making a choice and then choosing the option he initially introduced.

Hashirama doesn't even have the power of "the body of the sage" because he has the power of Shinju. In other words, he's Shinju in human form suffering from amnesia. 

The fact that the Senju don't know anything about what Madara told this chapter (646) should indicated how irrelevant they are. As should the implications that the Uzumaki have a stronger link to the body of the sage.



CuteJuubi said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I can agree up to this point.



CuteJuubi said:


> I firmly believe that Princess Kaguya/Hagoromo's Tribe were the Progenitor Uzumakis aka the first Uzumakis, they may have had the surname Ootsutsuki, but most probably during the dawn of the New Era aka Shinobi Era their Tribe became the Uzumaki Tribe.




So you're going to ignore the part that implies that *every* ninja clan is a descendant of Princess Kaguya Ōtsutsuki?



DraconianMithril said:


> Wasn't the Hagoromo clan teamed up with the Uchiha clan? Now the sage's name is Hagoromo?




Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki --> Hagoromo Clan

Kaguya Ōtsutsuki --> Kaguya Clan

It's an odd coincidence, but I'll just assume these clans simply have these names to honour their ancestors.



Jeαnne said:


> what puzzles me the most is...does it even mather?
> 
> I mean, wouldnt Naruto be as much of a Rikudou reincarnation if he was indeed related to a clan that came from one of Rikudou's heirs?
> 
> ...




I think the reincarnation hypothesis can be considered dead and buried, as we're back at the point we started with during the Invasion of Pain arc: Naruto as a substitute for a Senju. The prophecy basically says that someone will rise up and lead them in the spirit of the Senju ancestor. Naruto applied for this job and got it. Naruto being an Uzumaki and the Uzumaki being connected to the Senju is meaningless when the Senju themselves are meaningless and only Hashirama is important. And Hashirama is is actually more like the reincarnation of the Tree of Life than Naruto is the reincarnation of the Rikudo.

We know about a Hagoromo Clan that teamed up with the Uchiha. And we know about the Uzumaki clan that might have teamed up with the Senju. It does leave the door open for Jūgo's Clan being the rival to the Kaguya Clan of Kimimaro.

So the parallel works for Mother and Son but not much beyond that. It's yin and yang taken back a generation further back but with no real purpose IMHO.



Yuna said:


> This reincarnation theory is stupid.
> 
> You do realize that during that same fight, in a flashback, Hagoromo told the Bijuu that one day, a young man will be born and he'll lead the Bijuu down the right path, right? What the Bijuu are saying is "Naruto is the boy he told us about".




The reincarnation hypothesis only makes sense when Rikudo himself is also Uzumaki. He's not.

Still, it's amazing how the Younger Son's side of the story is a bigger mess than the Uciha's. Kishimoto had a simple choice to make: either Naruto substitutes for a Senju or Naruto *is* a Senju. Kishimoto combined both options. 



Addy said:


> RS father could be uzumaki but he was so irrelavent that he wasn't even mentioned at all as with mito in hashirama's story.
> 
> do you see where i am going with this? RS might be uzumaki or created it but that clan is almost hyuuga clan relevance compared to uchiha and senju. not even a third player but more as a substitute to senju vs uchiha struggle and that is only true because the MC is uzumaki and not because an uzumaki is MC if you get what i mean.




Only the Uchiha matter as far as Kishimoto is concerned. The Senju are only relevant as *the rival of the Uchiha clan*. The Uzumaki are only relevant as *the substitute for the rival of the Uchiha clan*. The Hyuuga have been reduced to a clan with a chakra sensing Kekkei Genkai that has a vague resemblance to a Doujutsu.



slumpy said:


> I do believe there is more of a relation between Uzimaku and RS, then just senju linage, like some people despartly claim
> 
> The Uzimaku doesnt fit in the line with senju and Uchiha. Senju resemble the body of the juubi (tree) and uchiha the eyes. This hint and paralel are pretty clear and obvious.
> 
> ...




There is not mystery any longer. Rikudo being an Uzumaki was the last chance. Kishimoto is only interested in the Uchiha. Accept it and move on.


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## Yakkai (Sep 13, 2013)

You all are not thinking like writers here. Kishi is obviously trying to retcon in some relevance to both the Uzumaki and the Senju, considering there wasn't any evidence of either before hand. This could well be the solution Kishi comes up with, or it could be something else entirely. The point is, whatever comes doesn't necessarily have to make any sense or flow with anything we've seen before, because Kishi did not lay the ground work for this in some kind of master plan. He didn't even come up with the Uchiha at all until his editor made him put in a rival.


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## slumpy (Sep 13, 2013)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> There is not mystery any longer. Rikudo being an Uzumaki was the last chance. Kishimoto is only interested in the Uchiha. Accept it and move on.



Juubi = tree with eyes

senju = tree powers
uchiha = eye powers 

Juubi is born from emotional lost of the tree. Uchiha awaken the sharingan by emotional los

We dont know how senju get there powerups, but looking at hashi and his actions and personality, I have a few ideas (Hint opposite of how uchiha gain power).

No there is still allot of mystery. Kishi never deflected the Uzimaku. He keeps the clan hidden from the story atm. 

And just like it took almost 10 years to tell everyone that minoto = narutos dad. Something everyone now finds normal.
Back in the day, allot of people where ignoring the hints kishi gave, and thousands of post where made about minoto not being naruto;s dad.

Allot have bin made about tobi being obito and allot of people said that wasnt true.

Just anwser the questions:

Why would kishi name naruto uzimaku if uchiha is truely the important clan for the main character of the story and the rivals of the uchiha named senju?

Again why did kishi holds back information about the Uzimaku (that have jutsu's that come from the sage of the six paths, that have the deathgod seal and etc). Why does he hold back info on naruto's background in the same why he hold back who his mom and dad where?



Yakkai said:


> You all are not thinking like writers here. Kishi is obviously trying to retcon in some relevance to both the Uzumaki and the Senju, considering there wasn't any evidence of either before hand. This could well be the solution Kishi comes up with, or it could be something else entirely. The point is, whatever comes doesn't necessarily have to make any sense or flow with anything we've seen before, because Kishi did not lay the ground work for this in some kind of master plan. He didn't even come up with the Uchiha at all until his editor made him put in a rival.



Not completly true: He already invented sasuke and sakura, but he wanted naruto to meet kakashi early on. Then his editors adviced him to first introduce sasuke if I remember correctly

sasuke is on the first page of the manga:



Before kishi created the manga and put out his ideas, then he didnt invent sasuke. But before publishing the offfical manga and the route in it: sasuke was part of the story.


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## santanico (Sep 13, 2013)

Hero of Shadows said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that's all fine and dandy, and you've posted things I'm already aware of. Doesn't change my opinion one bit.

that theory is nice an' all, but that's all it is, nice try though.


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## CuteJuubi (Sep 13, 2013)

HoriMaori said:


> No. It means that the Uchiha/Senju are a combonation of Ootsutsuki *and their mothers' genes*. That does not make the Ootsutsuki either Uchiha or Senju, but the precursor. That's like saying Scott Summers is a Grey because his son is one.



That's where you're wrong, the Elder and Younger Sons were creations from the Juubi's Essence with Banbutsu Sozo, the Elder/Uchiha is the Yin of the Juubi while the Younger/Senju is the Yang of the Juubi. They didn't have a mother.


Rikudou, his mom and his tribe became the progenitor Uzumakis, that's why they have Rikudou's Sealing Techs.* Let's think logically for a minute, others keep insisting that the Uzumakis were merely off-shoot of the Senjus from the Younger Son, but if that's the case, why do they have something so important and so secretive as Rikudou's Jutsus? wouldn't the Senjus being the true direct descendants be the ones to acquire them? why give Rikudou's Fuuinjutsus to merely off-shoots like the Uzumakis? it's because they're not off-shoots, Rikudou/Hagoromo himself gave his Fuuinjutsu to the Uzumakis because the Tribe/Family he belonged to became the Uzumaki Clan *


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 13, 2013)

Addy said:


> and why isn't the uzumaki clan mentioned on the tablet?
> 
> the clan RS's mother is mentioned but never uzumaki and no one in the story so far comes from that clan.
> 
> ...



We don't know the full contents of the tablet.

Yet we know little about said clan... so you don't think in time we'll get some explanation on the main character's clan?

Maybe because the Sage is more important than his family?

Arguably it may have something to do with the Senju upholding the Sage's ideals.



Big Bad Wolf said:


> uhhh, it was stated that the Uzumaki were distant relatives of the Senju, Rikudou only produced 2 children, and Rikudou was an only child. Do the fucking math



Not descendants, y'know. They can be distant relatives of the Senju _and_ Uzumaki> 

Tell me that you really believe that the Sage had no family. Don't be so quick to dismiss.


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## CuteJuubi (Sep 13, 2013)

Truth be told the recent revelation made me more confident that Rikudou was Uzumaki because unlike others who said he didn't have blood relatives and was just a magical being who descended from the Heavens, he is now established to have blood relatives since he was born like any other person, now, we agree from that the Younger Son's descendants were the Senjus only, *not* the Uzumakis:



Because if others argue that the Uzumaki Clan descended from the Younger Son, then why do they have something as ancient and as prominent as Rikudou's Jutsus if they were just off-shoot of the Senjus? why didn't the Senjus inherit Rikudou's Fuuinjutsus, it is because they didn't descend from the Younger Son, they inherited the Fuuinjutsus *directly* from Rikudou which solidified the fact that they existed prior to the birth of the Uchihas and Senjus.


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## Jikayaki (Sep 13, 2013)

CuteJuubi said:


> That's where you're wrong, the Elder and Younger Sons were creations from the Juubi's Essence with Banbutsu Sozo, the Elder/Uchiha is the Yin of the Juubi while the Younger/Senju is the Yang of the Juubi. They didn't have a mother.
> 
> 
> Rikudou, his mom and his tribe became the progenitor Uzumakis, that's why they have Rikudou's Sealing Techs.* Let's think logically for a minute, others keep insisting that the Uzumakis were merely off-shoot of the Senjus from the Younger Son, but if that's the case, why do they have something so important and so secretive as Rikudou's Jutsus? wouldn't the Senjus being the true direct descendants be the ones to acquire them? why give Rikudou's Fuuinjutsus to merely off-shoots like the Uzumakis? it's because they're not off-shoots, Rikudou/Hagoromo himself gave his Fuuinjutsu to the Uzumakis because the Tribe/Family he belonged to became the Uzumaki Clan *



At this point I think CuteJuubi your going to have to except that the clans came quite some time after Rikudou's death. The ability to use chakra and Ninjutsu outside the very sparse beginnings of the divide on his descendents had to first spread to the point clans began to form and even then its likely each line branched randomly. There is nothing pointing to a third group Uzumaki merely came to be much like the Senju a selection of descendents that grouped together under a clan banner.

Who's to say that Senju are necessarily to primary branch or even if they are that they necessary maintained a tradition going back to the time of Rikudou Sennin. The Uzumaki another branch of the younger brothers descendents may merely have inherited more internal knowledge regarding their origins than the Senju much as the Uchiha seem to have done.


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## CuteJuubi (Sep 13, 2013)

Jikayaki said:


> At this point I think CuteJuubi your going to have to except that the clans came quite some time after Rikudou's death. The ability to use chakra and Ninjutsu outside the very sparse beginnings of the divide on his descendents had to first spread to the point clans began to form and even then its likely each line branched randomly. There is nothing pointing to a third group Uzumaki merely came to be much like the Senju a selection of descendents that grouped together under a clan banner.
> 
> Who's to say that Senju are necessarily to primary branch or even if they are that they necessary maintained a tradition going back to the time of Rikudou Sennin. *The Uzumaki another branch of the younger brothers descendents may merely have inherited more internal knowledge regarding their origins than the Senju* much as the Uchiha seem to have done.



No, there aren't any *other* branches of the Younger Son, it was *only* the Senjus, the same with the Uchihas from the Elder Son, something to think about: how can two sibling clans with the same ancestor (Younger Son) be distant relatives? they would be close relatives if that was the case, a brother/sister clan is a close relative clan not distant.


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## hokageyonkou (Sep 13, 2013)

Its likely the uzumaki were a branch of the senju down the line. Which would explain their chakra quantity.

The hyuga were probably branched off of uchia, thus their doujutsu. Though it contrdicts kakashi comment on part 1.


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## CuteJuubi (Sep 14, 2013)

It only takes intuition and common sense to see that Kishimoto is purposely obscuring the relationship the Uzumakis have with the Senjus and Uchihas as being "distant blood relatives" the Uzumaki's relationship with the Uchihas has been established since 618 when the Shiki Fuujin required the Uchiha Tablet as the catalyst for the Shinigami Mask to unseal the Reaper, also not one mention of the Uzumaki Clan during Hashirama's flashback despite the fact that she was married to one and that the Uzumaki symbol was integrated into the Konoha Symbol, it's so obvious Kishimoto is keeping the Uzumaki Clan in the shadows, this is it, Hagoromo and his kinsmen were the progenitor Uzumakis.


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## Jikayaki (Sep 14, 2013)

CuteJuubi said:


> No, there aren't any *other* branches of the Younger Son, it was *only* the Senjus, the same with the Uchihas from the Elder Son, something to think about: how can two sibling clans with the same ancestor (Younger Son) be distant relatives? they would be close relatives if that was the case, a brother/sister clan is a close relative clan not distant.



The same way I'm a distant relative to members of my family on the east coast. Both halves of my family originate from a single house hold, but split more than a life time ago. Not to mention how technically on the other side of the issue the Uchiha also are distant relatives to Senju. Who knows how much time has gone by from the time of Rikudou. His sons weren't Senju or Uchiha merely their descendents were. The Uzumaki as a distant relative isn't that strange depending on how far removed the split between Uzumaki and Senju happened. The split very well could predate either clan name Uzumaki and Senju.

Your taking Obito's statements a little to literal, but even then Nagato and Uzumaki when introduced to Obito was stated to be from the Senju half of the clans, so that's already a massive hole before the introduction of the Sage's real name.

The clans came afterwards. The Sage left information and directions to his sons, but that doesn't mean every descendent has access to that information.


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## Mateush (Sep 14, 2013)

CuteJuubi said:


> Because if others argue that the Uzumaki Clan descended from the Younger Son, then why do they have something as ancient and as prominent as Rikudou's Jutsus if they were just off-shoot of the Senjus? why didn't the Senjus inherit Rikudou's Fuuinjutsus, it is because they didn't descend from the Younger Son, they inherited the Fuuinjutsus *directly* from Rikudou which solidified the fact that they existed prior to the birth of the Uchihas and Senjus.



That's a bad argument, but I understand your point. The Senju clan is more or less dead now, however we know Hashirama, probably Tobirama and possibly more knows Rikudou's jutsus such as Rinne Tensei. I guess it could very well be about love and trust, nothing more.

But yeah it's not impossible if the Uzumaki has special connection with RS.


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## Arthas (Sep 14, 2013)

CuteJuubi said:


> Because if others argue that the Uzumaki Clan descended from the Younger Son, then why do they have something as ancient and as prominent as Rikudou's Jutsus if they were just off-shoot of the Senjus? why didn't the Senjus inherit Rikudou's Fuuinjutsus, it is because they didn't descend from the Younger Son, they inherited the Fuuinjutsus *directly* from Rikudou which solidified the fact that they existed prior to the birth of the Uchihas and Senjus.



You've never had an inheritance dispute in your family?

Let me ask you this: If having inherited something from the RS means that much, then why is it that the Uchiha clan got the Tablet and the Hyuuga clan got zilch?

Simple thing is given the amount of time between the RS and current era it's not surprising that there are dramatic splits between who has what. 

After British occupation, our country was partitioned. Some of my (extended) family chose to live in one place while others migrated. Those who migrated chose not to take many of the family heirlooms as they were travelling in dangerous times/areas.

Now according to you, because they don't have family heirlooms they are no longer descendants of our family's founder?

That was a fairly recent example even. If you consider the number of wars and other dangerous happenings in the Naruto'verse it's not surprising that many things could get lost, stolen or even destroyed easily.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Sep 14, 2013)

CuteJuubi said:


> It only takes intuition and common sense to see that Kishimoto is purposely obscuring the relationship the Uzumakis have with the Senjus and Uchihas as being "distant blood relatives" the Uzumaki's relationship with the Uchihas has been established since 618 when the Shiki Fuujin required the Uchiha Tablet as the catalyst for the Shinigami Mask to unseal the Reaper, also not one mention of the Uzumaki Clan during Hashirama's flashback despite the fact that she was married to one and that the Uzumaki symbol was integrated into the Konoha Symbol, it's so obvious Kishimoto is keeping the Uzumaki Clan in the shadows, this is it, Hagoromo and his kinsmen were the progenitor Uzumakis.




Kishimoto isn't obscuring anything. He had a choice to make: (1) make Naruto a Senju through his father; or (2) allow Naruto to be a substitute for a Senju. It was a simple choice, yet Kishimoto botched it by combining both approaches (the prophecy makes Naruto a substitute Senju, while his mother's DNA makes him related to the Senju)...and it ultimately made the story worse, not better. I agree that the had the opportunity to make it better as the hypothesis that Rikudo=Uzumaki allowed quite a few loose ends to be tied up. Kishimoto decided not to take that opportunity.

And honestly...STOP PRESENTING HYPOTHESES AS FACTS.

Neither the Uzumaki nor the Senju are actually relevant in this story. The Senju are nothing but the rivals of the Uchiha clan. The Uzumaki are nothing but a substitute for the rivals of the Uchiha clan. Just accept that Kishimoto only gets off on watching Uchiha porn and move on.



Arthas said:


> You've never had an inheritance dispute in your family?
> 
> Let me ask you this: If having inherited something from the RS means that much, then why is it that the Uchiha clan got the Tablet and the Hyuuga clan got zilch?
> 
> ...




The problem is, it's not smart to split your family in times of war, because it makes both more vulnerable to their enemies.

And really, the inheritance of the Rikudo is a mess. The Rikudo's Tools ended up in the hands of Kumogakure. We can be sure that whoever they stole it from, it wasn't from either the Senju or the Uchiha.

The Uchiha got that Tablet.

The Senju got the Rikudo's blessing.

The Uzumaki ended up with the Rikudo's Fuinjutsu which might or might not have been stolen.​
And Konoha wears the Uzumaki Spiral on their flack jackets. 

I'm not going to assume consistency were there might not be any.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Sep 14, 2013)

Uzumaki will have a greater rolle later in the story. We still don't know how the Uzumaki are connected to the Shinigami. I believe that Uzumaki were based on Onmyoji who are type of japanese shamans and sorcerers but we shall see.


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## Grendel (Sep 14, 2013)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> Then Madara, Zetsu, and Kishi are some lying bastards.



The op posts the link saying that the senju were the only descendants and yet completely ignores this panel where zetsu specifically states that Nagato, an uzumaki, is from the senju line....


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## Arthas (Sep 14, 2013)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> The problem is, it's not smart to split your family in times of war, because it makes both more vulnerable to their enemies.
> 
> And really, the inheritance of the Rikudo is a mess.The Rikudo's Tools ended up in the hands of Kumogakure. We can be sure that whoever they stole it from, it wasn't from either the Senju or the Uchiha.
> 
> ...



Your not taking into account that such family splits can occur because of war as much as anything else.

Example:
Parent clan looses war against another clan. Some survivors head east and after a hundred years begin calling themselves the Senju. Some survivors manage to grab Clan Sealing jutsus before HQ burns but have to head west. To hide from their enemies they begin calling themselves a new clan name: Uzumaki... 

After a few hundred years both clans no longer identify with the parent clan and on goes life... 

However one thing to keep in mind, we have no idea what the Younger Son inherited or what the Senju managed to keep but both of those are different things from each other.

The YS for example might have inherited the Sealing jutsu and the Tools (not unlikely since they seem to have high chakra requirements). Then over the course of time, some of the tools were taken by other clans probably in battle, they would be high priority for enemy ninja or due to family splitting up been passed to other clans until finally the Senju were left with little.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Sep 14, 2013)

Arthas said:


> Your not taking into account that such family splits can occur because of war as much as anything else.
> 
> Example: Parent clan looses war against another clan. Some survivors head east and after a hundred years begin calling themselves the Senju. Some survivors manage to grab Clan Sealing jutsus before HQ burns but have to head west. To hide from their enemies they begin calling themselves a new clan name: Uzumaki...
> 
> ...



I agree that it could also have happened due to war and that survivors could have taken with them different belongings. It's basically what happened with the Uzumaki clan, isn't it?

The big problem with that approach is that it makes this whole Senju-Uchiha rivalry meaningless in the context of the Younger Son-Older Son rivalry. Rather than the Senju being the descendants of the Younger Son like the Uchiha are the descendants of the Older Son, the Senju would be one of multiple clans who are descendants of the Younger Son.

In other words, the only reason the Senju would be considered to be the descendants of the Younger Son is because the Uchiha deemed them such for their ability to stand up to the Uchiha. Even if a clan like the Uzumaki might have a stronger genetic connection to the Younger Son. This would make a certain amount of sense if we consider that the Uchiha Tablet probably doesn't use the names Uchiha and Senju anywhere.

But Kishimoto had multiple chances to make sense of the Younger Son's side. The Uzumaki could have been the descendants of the Younger Son. Naruto could have been a part Senju on his father's side. Naruto could have been a substitute for a Senju. But now we're left with this triangle relation between the Younger Son, the Senju and the Uzumaki. And Konoha wearing an Uzumaki spiral on their back. I don't even understand why the Uzumaki clan needed to be a foreign clan.

As for what the Younger Son inherited and what the Senju were left with...I think my post addressed that...in a roundabout way.


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## takL (Sep 14, 2013)

maybe. but so what? 
butsuma was the father of hashirama and yet he was so dumb.
i mean what ud get by killing all ur enemies? yeah perhaps that was what any grownups would say then. the kids knew better.


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## Klue (Sep 14, 2013)

takL said:


> maybe. but so what?
> butsuma was the father of hashirama and yet he was so dumb.
> i mean what ud get by killing all ur enemies? yeah perhaps that was what any grownups would say then. the kids knew better.



He wasn't dumb, just hardcore.


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## Klue (Sep 14, 2013)

Grendel said:


> The op posts the link saying that the senju were the only descendants and yet completely ignores this panel where zetsu specifically states that Nagato, an uzumaki, is from the senju line....



He tends to bull shit his way around it.


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## Arthas (Sep 15, 2013)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> I agree that it could also have happened due to war and that survivors could have taken with them different belongings. It's basically what happened with the Uzumaki clan, isn't it?
> 
> *The big problem with that approach is that it makes this whole Senju-Uchiha rivalry meaningless in the context of the Younger Son-Older Son rivalry. Rather than the Senju being the descendants of the Younger Son like the Uchiha are the descendants of the Older Son, the Senju would be one of multiple clans who are descendants of the Younger Son.*
> 
> ...



@bolded:

Your assuming that the Uchiha are the only descendants of the Elder Son. There could just as easily be others. 

It's not exactly a major stretch to believe that the Hyuuga are one of the descendants of the ES and if there are *3 Legendary Dojutsu*, are there 4 or 5 or 8 *Non*-Legendary Dojutsu wielding clans?   

Lets assume (for the sake of argument) that the Hyuuga are also ES descendants, they have not exactly inherited a tablet or legendary items have they? 

IMO: The Senju and the Uchiha are just the most powerful descendants of the ES & YS and the ones who have inherited their will and held true to the philosophy of their fore-fathers the most.


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## Hayn (Sep 15, 2013)

I think Sasuke's dad is an Uzumaki. Theres loads of inverse manga evidence proving me wrong, but no way am i going to accept that Sasukes dad is NOT an Uzumaki.


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## Bansai (Sep 15, 2013)

Uzumakis are related to Hagoromo because they inherited his strong forces of life and his will power, as they are related to the Senjus, who are descandants of Hagoromo's younger son. That's all there's to the Uzumaki Clan's relation to Rikudou Sennin. He is nothing but an ancestor who shares the same abilities as them.


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## titantron91 (Sep 16, 2013)

You are one obsessed Uzumaki fan.

Stop presenting your fanboy theories as facts made by Kishi coz as of this moment, they're not.


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## SageModeMan (Sep 16, 2013)

The fact has to be accepted, the Uzumaki clan has ONLY been stated to be related to the Senju without mention of the Uchiha.  

Unless Kishi decides to tell us the Uzumaki's are related to the Senju AND the Uchiha, the Uzumaki clan must be separate from the RS lineage.

This means the likelihood is that a Senju married an Uzumaki at some point in the past. 

We do know that Hashirama married an Uzumaki.  This may have been tradition between the clans, to increase the bonds of friendship and unity down through the years the two clans intermarried.   And this would explain the usage of the swirl in the Konoha leaf emblem. 

Now as to Naruto being the RS... that isn't possible because we know he was born from Kushina & Minato, not a Princess who ate of the tree.  

As for Naruto becoming a new RS.... what makes the RS stand apart from all others?  It isn't the Rinnegan, because that is from the Juubi.   It is his Sage ability.   Naruto has this sage ability, and if indeed he defeats the Juubi/Obito he still won't have Rinnegan unless he somehow becomes the true Juubi Jinchuriki.    But that begs the question of his relationship to Kurama.  Would he give up Kurama to become the Juubi Jinchuriki?


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## Hero of Shadows (Sep 16, 2013)

Arthas said:


> @bolded:
> 
> Your assuming that the Uchiha are the only descendants of the Elder Son. There could just as easily be others.
> 
> ...



The Hyuuga inherited the Sage's stealth field generator it makes them invisible to any FV level threat (you'll notice that they're attacked only by cloud and mist)

It's a huge asset but it's killing Hinata's love life by making her invisible to naruto 



SageModeMan said:


> The fact has to be accepted, the Uzumaki clan has ONLY been stated to be related to the Senju without mention of the Uchiha.
> 
> Unless Kishi decides to tell us the Uzumaki's are related to the Senju AND the Uchiha, the Uzumaki clan must be separate from the RS lineage.
> 
> ...



Are we really 100% stated in manga sure that RS got the Rinneghan only after sealing the Juubi inside of him ?

Or are we just "Rs = uzumaki" level of sure  ?


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## SageModeMan (Sep 16, 2013)

Hero of Shadows said:


> The Hyuuga inherited the Sage's stealth field generator it makes them invisible to any FV level threat (you'll notice that they're attacked only by cloud and mist)
> 
> It's a huge asset but it's killing Hinata's love life by making her invisible to naruto
> 
> ...



It's simple really... look at the eye of the Juubi,  it's the predecessor of all Dojutsu.  All chakra and bloodline traits would be inherited through the fruit, and thus the development of all Dojutsu.   With the mix of genetics and chakra a specific Dojutsu would turn up in specific clans.   As we have seen no one is born with the Rinnegan, they must awaken it.  The Sharingan is awakened and with the right genetic code eventually the Rinnegan is born.  

Therefore the history must be something along this line.  

The RS was born with chakra, learned to wield it, developed a dojutsu, most probably the Sharingan, however due to the power of the Juubi the Sharingan cannot control it.  The RS, using Sagemode defeats the Juubi and seals it power inside himself, in the process of facing the Juubi in such a struggle the Rinnegan is awakened.  Now with the power of the Rinnegan the RS has the ability to create and destroy and does so by splitting the power of the Juubi into 9 tailed beasts and seals the body of the Juubi in the moon. 

Fast forward to Hashirama & Madara at VATE.   The fight and Madara survives with part of Hashirama's DNA.    It takes much time, but eventually Madara awakens the Rinnegan through much struggle but doesn't have the power of the tailed beasts to actually use it nor the lifespan to try to do so.   He uses Obito as his pawn to gather the beasts and Nagato to wield the Rinnegan.   I suspect that Madara's original plan was for Obito to gather the beasts and seal them in the statue, have Nagato revive him and then take the Rinnegan back from Nagato and become the Juubi's Jinchuriki.   He then would implement the Infinite Sukyomi.. but that cannot be the answer or solution because it is merely a dream.  The Juubi was neutral to mankind before the taking of the fruit, so this plan isn't the tree's plan but Madara's foolishness.   

RS wasn't simply the Juubi's Jinchuriki, wielder of it's immense power, he had to have power greater than the Juubi itself and that is where Nature energy and Sagemode come in to overcome the Juubi, control it's power, and benefit man.   The resolution of this battle has to be a dispersal of the Juubi and it's components for all time so that it cannot reform.  Madara's dreams have always been of controlling the situation, not resolving them.   Hashirama has always wanted to resolve situations to an end bringing peace.   Both being imperfect, they fight believing they are right but not having the ability to spread peace.  

This is where Naruto comes in, he has 2 key components, The kyuubi and sagemode.   So he has power from 2 sources.  Plus he has the ability to convince others to believe in him.  This third power is a greater power-up than simply chakra and natural energy... it is a booster.   So he is the modern equivalent of the RS once he is able to balance these forces in the fight.   

Much like the original RS, who must have had to learn to balance chakra and nature energy without tutelage from outside,  Naruto's next lesson is to learn to increase the power of his attacks with the spiritual energy of all those who believe in him.


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## Velocity (Sep 16, 2013)

-Azula- said:


> Rikudo= Uzumaki theory still lives?



All we need now is a flashback to when the Sage was alive, so we can see him acting all goofy and stupid. 

Although, to be fair, the theory is an obvious one and Kishimoto is known for taking the obvious option. He isn't very creative when it comes to twists, so the Sage being an Uzumaki is something I can see coming true (especially if you consider Kushina's chakra chains). Throw in something extra about how only Nagato, an Uzumaki, could master the Rinnegan when Madara and Obito could only use one Path jutsu each and you have an easy way for Kishimoto to say "the Sage was Uzumaki!".


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## Sanity Check (Sep 16, 2013)

Rikudou didn't have biological offspring.  

He gave half power to Uchiha and half to Senju.

He didn't have kids.  No child support for him.

...

Hyuugas are probably related to Uchihas.

Uzumakis, I would guess, are related to Senjus in the same way.


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