# Teen Ends Life After Photo Of Her Alleged Gang Rape Goes Viral



## siyrean (Apr 11, 2013)

> Rape Culture Claims Another Victim: Teen Ends Life After Photo Of Her Alleged Gang Rape Goes Viral
> By Andrea Peterson on Apr 9, 2013 at 1:30 pm
> 
> Seventeen months ago a Canadian teen was allegedly gang-raped by four of her peers and the photo evidence of the rape spread across her community. But unlike the situation that unfolded in Steubenville, where the victim was at least given the comfort of knowing her assailants received some measure of punishment (even if the media took their side), this case ended in tragedy: The victim was taken off life support by her family on Sunday, three days after attempting to end her own life.
> ...





Seriously, Canada?


----------



## Krippy (Apr 11, 2013)

I ..... don't even know what to say


----------



## Roman (Apr 11, 2013)

Mider T said:


> Where's the pic?


----------



## Mochi (Apr 11, 2013)

Heard about it yesterday.


She was gangraped when she was 15. *15*.


RIP dear


----------



## Zaru (Apr 11, 2013)

What happened to her is tragic, especially all the bullying.

However, the choice of picture in the article (outdoors with a cute dog) is quite peculiar and omits some fancy little details about her personality. Her twitter account is full of weed pictures, she had a huge ass tattoo on her arm, she was a cliche stoner and partygoer. It seems she was already rumored as an attention whore. (No, I am not saying that's an excuse for rape, come on)

This made "victim blaming" much easier for the people in her school since it paints the whole thing in the light that she slutted it up and regretted it days later. Why would rapists spread around pictures of their criminal deed in the entire school? Not saying it's impossible but they'd have to be dumb as fuck.
The "rapists" weren't convicted of rape. There's no conclusive proof and the victim will never be able to tell the "truth" again. Understandably, some people now want revenge for this tragic outturn, in some kind of social justice rage, but just because they think someone is a criminal doesn't make it so. In their minds, any male accused of rape is guilty until the victim or god himself steps down from the heavens and tells them otherwise.

What really killed her were her classmates. They made her life hell and showed no sympathy. But some people are trying to make the names of the accused public and ruin their lives. 
Would I defend rapists? Hell no. Do I have a problem with internet warriors trying to play social justice vigilante out of conjecture? Yes.


----------



## Mael (Apr 11, 2013)

> Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) dropped their investigation after a year without charges.



I thought they always get their man. 

This is pretty fucked up, but I can't stress the importance of doing the rape kit as soon as possible.  I don't know what it's like in the slightest and I can only sense rape victims terrified of even more probing, but it has to be done otherwise the perps have an easier time getting away.  

As for the classmates, it only proves my theory that teens are not only stupid but psychopathic.


----------



## Soca (Apr 11, 2013)

what a pity


----------



## davidpliskin (Apr 11, 2013)

First off rape is a very serious offense, which requires harsh punishments. But in all honesty not everyone who is accused of rape is guilty of it.


----------



## Blue (Apr 11, 2013)

Accuse some boys of rape 17 months ago, get no charges pressed because your claims are totally without credibility, be one of thousands of teens monthly committing suicide, mom says, after she dies, it's because of the "rape" a year and a half ago.

Social justice crusade get?




Mael said:


> I thought they always get their man.



Maybe they do. Maybe there isn't a man. Consider that?


----------



## Mael (Apr 11, 2013)

Blue said:


> Accuse some boys of rape 17 months ago, get no charges pressed because your claims are totally without credibility, be one of thousands of teens monthly committing suicide, mom says, after she dies, it's because of the "rape" a year and a half ago.
> 
> Social justice crusade get?
> 
> Maybe they do. Maybe there isn't a man. Consider that?



Well now hold on, Blue.  Again, we don't know the full circumstances behind this entire thing.  A lot of victims are so traumatized that even rape kits are seen as violating them.  Some shower from the trauma and wash away half the evidence.  I mean it's a fucking serious thing and after working as a victim advocate for about five years I've learned a thing or two.

Yeah she looked a bit of a stoner but that doesn't make her an outright liar.  If rape kits and the statute of limitations expire then it's a completely fucked case and the fact these little teenage shits made her life a living hell doesn't work.  And this is Canada, the "sensible shoe" nation of nations ffs.

No fucking discipline amongst this generation...not one iota.

You don't know the RCMP motto do you?


----------



## Psychic (Apr 11, 2013)

Canada.


----------



## bigduo209 (Apr 11, 2013)

It's the randomness of human nature that always disturbs me.

You don't know why half the people do what they do to others, but somehow the legal system and other measures put into place doesn't always prevent or punish individuals responsible for these tragic events.

I hope someway or somehow this poor girl and her family gain some closure for what happened. Those bastards deserve some kind of severe punishment for what they did to her.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 11, 2013)

Psychic said:


> Canada.



Huh? It's not like this is common in Canada or couldn't happen elsewhere


----------



## Mael (Apr 11, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Huh? It's not like this is common in Canada or couldn't happen elsewhere



People have this tendency to put Canada on some apex of innocence.  Granted, they are nicer and more boring than most Europeans and Americans.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 11, 2013)

Mael said:


> People have this tendency to put Canada on some apex of innocence.  Granted, they are nicer and more boring than most Europeans and Americans.



I'm sure the rapists asked for permission first and left her with a genuine "Thank you very much, eh"


----------



## davidpliskin (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm not too familiar on what happened, can anyone with any information on what happened explain this situation and why it's considered rape.


----------



## dummy plug (Apr 11, 2013)

well i dont know the real story; she may be an attention whore or not but basically if rape really happened then the suspects need to be punished


----------



## Blue (Apr 11, 2013)

dummy plug said:


> well i dont know the real story; she may be an attention whore or not but basically if rape really happened then the suspects need to be punished



Apparently there were pictures distributed of the young lady having sexual relations with an unnamed gentleman or gentlemen. She alleged rape.

Police examined the evidence, including the pictures, and declined to press charges, including child porn as only children were involved in their distribution.

A "rape kit" as mael brings up is irrelevant as there was never any question that she had had sex.


----------



## Lucaniel (Apr 11, 2013)

> Police examined the evidence, including the pictures, and declined to press charges





> But there were other issues with the investigation as well, Parsons told the Halifax Chronicle Herald: “[t]hey didn’t even interview the boys until much, much later” and “nothing was done about [the photos] because they couldn’t prove who had pressed the photo button on the phone.” She was told that even the distribution of the photos was “not really a criminal issue,” despite the fact that Rehtaeh was 15 at the time, meaning the photos constituted child pornography.



it sounds more like the police couldn't be fucked to mount a thorough investigation tbh


----------



## Mael (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm a little disturbed to see the sudden jump to claim false accusation.  I've seen false accusations and so far I don't see a shred of evidence proving this was false.


----------



## Blue (Apr 11, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> it sounds more like the police couldn't be fucked to mount a thorough investigation tbh



I would assume that's because a cursory investigation cast doubt on the whole affair. It's not like the Canadian police have anything better to do.



Mael said:


> I'm a little disturbed to see the sudden jump to claim false accusation.  I've seen false accusations and so far I don't see a shred of evidence proving this was false.



I never said it was false.


----------



## Lucaniel (Apr 11, 2013)

Mael said:


> I'm a little disturbed to see the sudden jump to claim false accusation.  I've seen false accusations and so far I don't see a shred of evidence proving this was false.



the fact that it resulted in someone's death is enough to warrant investigating everyone involved, to be honest


----------



## davidpliskin (Apr 11, 2013)

Blue said:


> Apparently there were pictures distributed of the young lady having sexual relations with an unnamed gentleman or gentlemen. She alleged rape.
> 
> Police examined the evidence, including the pictures, and declined to press charges, including child porn as only children were involved in their distribution.
> 
> A "rape kit" as mael brings up is irrelevant as there was never any question that she had had sex.



Not to sound insensitive to the situation, but it sounds more like being embarrassed about the pictures being distributed, more so than actual rape. I guess with the case in Ohio, you could see the woman was not in a state of consciousness to consent to anything from the video and comments, where it was expressed and joked about many times she was "dead".


----------



## Mael (Apr 11, 2013)

Blue said:


> I never said it was false.



Your tone insinuates it.



Lucaniel said:


> the fact that it resulted in someone's death is enough to warrant investigating everyone involved, to be honest



Yes.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 11, 2013)

Let's hope her classmates get some serious scolding. I bet some of the cunts there pretended to be shocked and mourning for interviewers but badmouthed her in private.


----------



## Ichi Sagato (Apr 11, 2013)

I know this is NF and that I shouldn't expect anything more but.. Some of the replies in here uhg.


----------



## Lord Genome (Apr 11, 2013)

> The RCMP investigated  the attack but the boys involved were never charged, and while Nova  Scotia Justice Minister Ross Landry requested a review of the case after  the story made national headlines, it seems unlikely that the situation  will change. *That's led to a growing call for the involvement of online  activist group Anonymous, including from high-profile Canadian  political strategist, commentator, author and Liberal party heavyweight  Warren Kinsella, who wrote an open letter calling on the group to "find  out who the little bastards are."*
> 
> In fact, Kinsella seems quite happy to take Anonymous off the leash  altogether. "The RCMP, who allegedly investigated, are led in Nova  Scotia by Alphonse MacNeil.* He calls himself a 'consensus builder. and  has two daughters. I'm sure you could find his email address if you  needed to," *.  "The Nova Scotia government, which agreed with - and energetically  defended - the RCMP's decision to do nothing about the rape or the child  pornography, is led by NDP leader Darrell Dexter. Interestingly, he  represents Cole Harbour in the provincial legislature. His email isn't  readily available, either, but I know you'll find that, too."
> *
> "The names of the little bastards who did this, and who are still  alive and walk free in Cole Harbour, are unknown to most of us. But, as  in the Steubenville, Ohio case, I am certain anyone who is sufficiently  motivated can find out who the little bastards are, and name and shame  them,"* he continued. "I'm unclear how to appeal to you, Anonymous. But  if there was ever a case that cried out for your attention - and if  there were ever men like MacNeil, Dexter and Landry who deserved to be  fired, or worse, for their pathetic responses - I don't know what it is.  What happened to Rehtaeh and her family is so horrible, so evil, I am  ashamed that it happened in my country."


 

wut
​


----------



## Zaru (Apr 11, 2013)

Lord Genome said:


> wut
> ​



Yep, that's exactly what I addressed in my first post. Social justice warriors trying to play vigilante, automatically assuming them guilty.


----------



## Lucaniel (Apr 11, 2013)

actual political figures are asking for anonymous to get involved

gosh


----------



## TheSweetFleshofDeath (Apr 11, 2013)

I wouldn't be so quick to assume she was raped.  It's very possible that once the photo went viral she called rape to save face.  It's much more depressing that people assume someone is guilty before being proven innocent.  Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?

When you think about it, even if they are innocent their lives are effectively over.  Whether it's verisimilitude or truth we shouldn't be so quick to decide.


----------



## Blue (Apr 11, 2013)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> I wouldn't be so quick to assume she was raped.  It's very possible that once the photo went viral she called rape to save face.  It's much more depressing that people assume someone is guilty before being proven innocent.  Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?


Recently in the case of rape, we seem to be getting told it's guilty until proven innocent. Any time a suspect is cleared of wrongdoing or aquitted, it's automatically injustice.



> When you think about it, even if they are innocent their lives are effectively over.  Whether it's verisimilitude or truth we shouldn't be so quick to decide.


Well, they haven't been named yet. Hopefully it stays that way. Whether they're guilty or innocent, having been investigated and found in the clear is not and cannot be a reason for idiots on the internet to take things into their own hands.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 11, 2013)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> When you think about it, even if they are innocent their lives are effectively over.  Whether it's verisimilitude or truth we shouldn't be so quick to decide.



Let's be honest though, guys who do gangbangs in highschool are most likely not going to get far in life or turn into pillars of society.


Blue said:


> Well, they haven't been named yet. Hopefully it stays that way. Whether they're guilty or innocent, having been investigated and found in the clear is not and cannot be a reason for idiots on the internet to take things into their own hands.


They already have the names of some of the guys, they've simply not released them yet.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 11, 2013)

Mider T said:


> Where's the pic?





Oh you.


----------



## Lucaniel (Apr 11, 2013)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> I wouldn't be so quick to assume she was raped.  It's very possible that once the photo went viral she called rape to save face.  It's much more depressing that people assume someone is guilty before being proven innocent.  Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?
> 
> When you think about it, even if they are innocent their lives are effectively over.  Whether it's verisimilitude or truth we shouldn't be so quick to decide.



on the other hand

the girl is dead

so it's interesting that you focus on how sad it is that people are assuming they're guilty until proven innocent


----------



## Blue (Apr 11, 2013)

She committed suicide 17 months later.

If we arrested everyone who'd ever mistreated a person who later ended their own life, there wouldn't be many people left free.


----------



## siyrean (Apr 11, 2013)

As much as a hate to say it about my own country but I think you guys need to realise that Canada does have a rape problem. You are far more likely to be raped here than in the states and we have a hell of a lot of 'butt fuck no where' in our land. The fact that it's the RCMP's jurisdiction leads me to think this is a small town. It's not like they're our regular police officers.

for the doubters, how do you ascertain guilt from a photograph? exactly what sort facial expression should someone being raped have and hold through the entire ordeal so that no one mistakes it for a hardcore porn scene? Please discuss. 

And yes, I understand that since a photo can't prove guilt, the case probably wouldn't have lead to a solid conviction, but they should have at least tried.


----------



## Mael (Apr 11, 2013)

siyrean said:


> As much as a hate to say it about my own country but I think you guys need to realise that Canada does have a rape problem. You are far more likely to be raped here than in the states and we have a hell of a lot of 'butt fuck no where' in our land. The fact that it's the RCMP's jurisdiction leads me to think this is a small town. It's not like they're our regular police officers.
> 
> for the doubters, how do you ascertain guilt from a photograph? exactly what sort facial expression should someone being raped have and hold through the entire ordeal so that no one mistakes it for a hardcore porn scene? Please discuss.
> 
> And yes, I understand that since a photo can't prove guilt, the case probably wouldn't have lead to a solid conviction, but they should have at least tried.



Well I can only deduce that this happened in Halifax...which is close to Newfoundland...which is...yeah...and people thought Winnipeg was a "special" place.


----------



## "Shion" (Apr 11, 2013)

Blue said:
			
		

> If we arrested everyone who'd ever mistreated a person who later ended their own life, there wouldn't be many people left free.



Mistreated, or received chronic physical and mental abuse? 

Look at the case at hand and think about what you're typing.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 11, 2013)

siyrean said:


> As much as a hate to say it about my own country but I think you guys need to realise that Canada does have a rape problem. You are far more likely to be raped here than in the states and we have a hell of a lot of 'butt fuck no where' in our land. The fact that it's the RCMP's jurisdiction leads me to think this is a small town. It's not like they're our regular police officers.
> 
> for the doubters, how do you ascertain guilt from a photograph? exactly what sort facial expression should someone being raped have and hold through the entire ordeal so that no one mistakes it for a hardcore porn scene? Please discuss.
> 
> And yes, I understand that since a photo can't prove guilt, the case probably wouldn't have lead to a solid conviction, but they should have at least tried.



Actually, I'm wondering how this case COULD have turned out with rape convictions.

As things seem, they did not physically force her, they did not hurt her, and they are not denying that they had sex with her. Voluntary spread of photographic evidence shows a lack of criminal intent. It shows all the signs of "had sex while drunk and regretted it later".

Which means... it was her word against theirs. Whether she was raped or not, society can't lock up people based on conjecture (even though it happens way too often)

Rape is problematic especially due to its "word against word" nature. There is no possible solution to always get the right verdict.


----------



## Lucaniel (Apr 11, 2013)

Blue said:


> She committed suicide 17 months later.
> 
> If we arrested everyone who'd ever mistreated a person who later ended their own life, there wouldn't be many people left free.



yes

but if we arrested everyone who ever participate in gang-rape and left someone with deep psychological trauma which led them to commit suicide, it'd be a much nicer world

quit generalising to lighten the situation. _if_ they're guilty, they need to be imprisoned. if they are _not_, then they'll be acquitted. and whatever media circuses and problems they undergo in the process are not even close to balancing out the girl being dead, so...yeah



> Voluntary spread of photographic evidence shows a lack of criminal intent. It shows all the signs of "had sex while drunk and regretted it later".



...Steubenville?


----------



## Mathias124 (Apr 11, 2013)

There are photos of her getting raped ... so she should be crying her heart on all those pictures right, probably held down forcefully perhaps even a few obvious bruises after punches?

I think what happened is ambigious, they may have pressured her more than is fair (almost certainly did) but if she was raped with force and they took pictures it should be VERY clear and the community wouldn't have reacted the way they did.

How many stories of a drunk girl going all in with 1+ guys and who later regretted it and called them rapists do we know? 3 guys in Denmark just got aquitted after years, all they did was bone the drunk slut.


----------



## "Shion" (Apr 11, 2013)

Well, see... we don't have the pictures.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 11, 2013)

Mathias124 said:


> There are photos of her getting raped ... so she should be crying her heart on all those pictures right, probably held down forcefully perhaps even a few obvious bruises after punches?


What is: Alcohol, drugs
Lack of resistance or a "no" doesn't mean it can't be rape.



Mathias124 said:


> How many stories of a drunk girl going all in with 1+ guys and who later regretted it and called them rapists do we know?



That's the beautiful irony of rape cases, if both people are drunk and consent to the sex, but she later regrets it, the man "raped" her.
If malicious intent can't be proven, regret should not imply rape. Holding others accountable for your stupid decisions is deplorable. Whether that happened in this case or not is of course impossible to know.


----------



## "Shion" (Apr 11, 2013)

Seems to me like 4 guys saw a drunk girl and decided to act whether she consented or not. 

The fact they they fucked her, posted pictures (under-age), and then she later killed herself because of it, is reason enough to find these idiots and lay a smackdown on their candy asses.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 11, 2013)

They indeed deserve punishment for publishing those pictures
But it seems they're gonna get punishment on a level as if they raped and killed her


----------



## Cygnus45 (Apr 11, 2013)

She does sound like a slut, but it is tragic that her family decided to stop "putting up with her". Stupid canucks and their poor parenting.


----------



## siyrean (Apr 11, 2013)

Mathias124 said:


> There are photos of her getting raped ... so she should be crying her heart on all those pictures right, probably held down forcefully perhaps even a few obvious bruises after punches?
> 
> I think what happened is ambigious, they may have pressured her more than is fair (almost certainly did) but if she was raped with force and they took pictures it should be VERY clear and the community wouldn't have reacted the way they did.
> 
> How many stories of a drunk girl going all in with 1+ guys and who later regretted it and called them rapists do we know? 3 guys in Denmark just got aquitted after years, all they did was bone the drunk slut.



She wasn't aware when she was being raped. The sketchy thing in the artical is that it doesn't say _why_ she wasn't aware. This leads me to think voluntary drug use or alcohol was involved and they're tip toeing around that in the face of all the blame the victim people.

however she found out when the pictures came up a few days later and could no longer do a rape kit. 


i hate all this "forcible rape" "_rape_ rape" shit. I wish I had an answer for cases that weren't excessively violent, but despite what the majority seems to think, the overwhelming majority of rape cases never lead to a conviction.


----------



## Lucaniel (Apr 11, 2013)

Zaru said:


> They indeed deserve punishment for publishing those pictures
> But it seems they're gonna get punishment on a level as if they raped and killed her



it...doesn't sound like that at all

regardless of what people are calling for on social media, they're going to be handled by the justice system, and they're going to be punished for whatever it can be proved that they did


----------



## Zaru (Apr 11, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> it...doesn't sound like that at all
> 
> regardless of what people are calling for on social media, they're going to be handled by the justice system, and they're going to be punished for whatever it can be proved that they did



No. They already investigated and dropped the charges. Nothing can happen to them anymore from the judical system (unless new evidence appears), which is exactly WHY the social justice warriors are revving up a witch hunt.


----------



## "Shion" (Apr 11, 2013)

Im guessing just the pictures, then.. 

And under-age sex.


----------



## Lucaniel (Apr 11, 2013)

Zaru said:


> No. They already investigated and dropped the charges. Nothing can happen to them anymore from the judical system (unless new evidence appears), which is exactly WHY the social justice warriors are revving up a witch hunt.



it doesn't sound like they bothered investigating them much at all, and that was back before it had resulted in her death. i'd say that justifies another look


----------



## "Shion" (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm with Lucy. ^


----------



## Mathias124 (Apr 11, 2013)

siyrean said:


> She wasn't aware when she was being raped. The sketchy thing in the artical is that it doesn't say _why_ she wasn't aware. This leads me to think voluntary drug use or alcohol was involved and they're tip toeing around that in the face of all the blame the victim people.
> 
> however she found out when the pictures came up a few days later and could no longer do a rape kit.
> 
> ...



Ahh, i didnt know that, wasnt evident from the article.

To me it just seems like most cases of gang rape is a girl who regrets doing a couple of guys. This is of course after a few days when finds out that everyone knows and treats her like a slut.


A passed out girl being boned by 4 guys is obviously rape, no questions asked.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Apr 11, 2013)

Reading now that Anon is going after them. Gotta say, I admire them.


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Apr 11, 2013)

Why are you talking like this only happens in Canada or Canada itself is guilty of anything in here?

Couldn't shit like this happen anywhere else? C'mon now...
No I am not Canadian.


----------



## Renegade Knight (Apr 11, 2013)

Jesus Christ.

This makes me sick to my stomach.


----------



## Deleted member 222538 (Apr 11, 2013)

Well, it doesn't matter whether they raped her or not. If she was drunk then that's automatic rape.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 11, 2013)

That's not how it works

We tell people not to murder and they're gonna ruin their lives if they get caught doing it, that doesn't stop all people from murdering

We tell people not to steal and they're gonna ruin their lives if they get caught doing it, that doesn't stop all people from stealing

We tell people not to drive drunk since they're in deep shit if they do anything bad under the influence, that doesn't stop all people from driving drunk

We tell people not to break laws altogether since it will ruin their lives if they get caught doing it, that doesn't stop all people from breaking the law

Do these people honestly think men in the west aren't also told not to rape?

There is no more of a rape culture here than there is a crime culture and a general stupidity culture. When severe punishment isn't enough of an incentive to stop criminals and they think they can get away with it, potential victims have to watch out for themselves. It's obviously not a great status quo, but the only way to prevent this would be castrating all men, or surveilling everyone 24/7, or automatically convicting everyone accused of rape. Those are not alternatives, sorry.



Normality said:


> Well, it doesn't matter whether they raped her or not. If she was drunk then that's automatic rape.



And what if they were drunk too?


----------



## Hwon (Apr 11, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Actually, I'm wondering how this case COULD have turned out with rape convictions.
> 
> As things seem, they did not physically force her, they did not hurt her, and they are not denying that they had sex with her. *Voluntary spread of photographic evidence shows a lack of criminal intent.* It shows all the signs of "had sex while drunk and regretted it later".
> 
> ...



Uh, maybe you missed the last dozen or so teenage rape stories with a national spot light, but recording/photographing assaults and distributing the material has become quite common.  In fact the phrase, "...thought it would be funny.", is uttered just as often.

It reveals the mindset taking place in those kinds of moments.  These teenagers are not being mindful of the consequences or the severity of their actions especially when drugs/alcohol are involved.  It is like a joke or prank played on someone and at their expense.


----------



## Vermin (Apr 11, 2013)

just horrible 

but if a person can't consent (drunk, high or whatever) doesn't it automatically count as rape?


----------



## Scott Pilgrim (Apr 11, 2013)

Zyken said:


> just horrible
> 
> but if a person can't consent (drunk, high or whatever) doesn't it automatically count as rape?



What if both parties are drunk, high or whatever? Did they all just rape eachother? No.


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Apr 11, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Voluntary spread of photographic evidence shows a lack of criminal intent.



Did you pay ANY attention to the Steubenville case? Or any other number of cases?




Cygnus45 said:


> She does sound like a slut, but it is tragic that her family decided to stop "putting up with her". Stupid canucks and their poor parenting.



... I don't remember the Cafe being THIS bad...


----------



## Revolution (Apr 11, 2013)

Understanding her pain, the fighting spirit of telling her side of the story instead of confirming to social norms (which everyone is guilty of, don't deny it) would have saved her life and her parents grief.  Yes, the guys should be punished, but you also have to know your own life is important.

Edit: It's hard even being a teenager alone, but ending your life is letting the bad guys win.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 11, 2013)

Gaawa-chan said:


> Did you pay ANY attention to the Steubenville case? Or any other number of cases?



That's the sad irony here. These frat boy/gangsta types consider all women whores and thus do not even stop to THINK if they could be committing a crime. There was no criminal intent (which is not the same as not committing a crime, of course)
It's not like the numerous rapes that are committed with threats and violence.

(Poor choice of words on my side earlier)


----------



## Grep (Apr 11, 2013)

Remember folks, if you say something happened, it did.

No need to use your brain, just get in line with the rest of the mob and assume something a person said is true despite any evidence. 

Not saying she wasn't raped but it just doesn't seem like there was ever enough evidence to prove it.

But let me propose a scenario here, IF the girl did willingly have sex, what kind of world do we live in where a girl has to say she was raped because telling people she had sex with some guys labels here as a monster whore and ruins her life?

And IF this girl was raped, how the fuck is she ever going to get over it with the absurd amount of attention rape victims receive. Yeah it is great the media and the people are on the side of rape victims, but how about instead of making this macabre spectacle of rape victims we just leave them the fuck alone so they can heal. Instead we tell them over and over again how terrible it was, and how it will forever scar and change them and shit, thats not really a helpful message to convey. Leave them to their families and whatever form of therapy they seek and chill the fuck out. Because as it stands we as a collective society probably do about as much damage as the rapists by making the victims a story so we can sit around and find gross entertainment from this shit but say how sad it is so we don't feel guilty. We make them relive their rape again and again because we just deep down are so fascinated with it. And we call the rapists sick?


----------



## Vasto Lorde King (Apr 11, 2013)

> Originally Posted by Mider T
> Where's the pic?


----------



## Deleted member 222538 (Apr 11, 2013)

Zaru said:


> That's not how it works
> 
> We tell people not to murder and they're gonna ruin their lives if they get caught doing it, that doesn't stop all people from murdering
> 
> ...



I don't know. I'm not a lawyer.


----------



## Ae (Apr 11, 2013)

Is this on World Star?


----------



## Mael (Apr 11, 2013)

Gaawa-chan said:


> ... I don't remember the Cafe being THIS bad...



Cygnus is OBD.  Take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## T7 Bateman (Apr 12, 2013)

Sad that this is happening our girls are being sexually assaulted and our boys think it's funny or cool and take pics and pass them around like it's a good thing. Then add the ones that get the pics and they spread them around like it's cool. Just sad all away around.


----------



## Hand Banana (Apr 12, 2013)

Pics or it didn't happen.


----------



## Moeka (Apr 12, 2013)

This is just really reeeeaaalllllly SAD ;<
The poor girl.....

But still I dont want to sound rude, but if the pic was of her getting "raped", why would people call her a slut? I mean im 100% positive she wasn't smiling in that incident...hmm.. (no im not saying it is fake yada yada....)


----------



## lacey (Apr 12, 2013)

Moeka said:


> But still I dont want to sound rude, but if the pic was of her getting "raped", why would people call her a slut? I mean im 100% positive she wasn't smiling in that incident...hmm.. (no im not saying it is fake yada yada....)





> Because the boys already had a ?slut? story, the victim of the rape Rehtaeh was considered a SLUT.?



Pretty much speaks for itself. Someone also commented earlier about her Twitter account. Chances are, there were already rumours abound about her being a "slut," and regardless as to what was actually in the picture, people will simply assume she was just "being a slut," and having sex of her own will. 

Group mentality as its finest. :/


----------



## Moeka (Apr 12, 2013)

^ Ah i see, didnt read that, thanks!
>Group mentality as its finest. :/
yuup ;/


----------



## NarutoxKakashi (Apr 12, 2013)

Condolences to her family .  Stories like this make me wish karma was real, the people bullying her would be struck down like a lightning rod.


----------



## Blue (Apr 12, 2013)

Normality said:


> Well, it doesn't matter whether they raped her or not. If she was drunk then that's automatic rape.



What the fuck, I missed this.

That is the dumbest fucking shit I've ever heard in my life. If that's true I'm a rapist several times over and so are most of the rest of both men and women.


----------



## Cygnus45 (Apr 13, 2013)

Zaru said:


> That's the sad irony here. These frat boy/gangsta types consider all women whores and thus do not even stop to THINK if they could be committing a crime. There was no criminal intent (which is not the same as not committing a crime, of course)
> It's not like the numerous rapes that are committed with threats and violence.
> 
> (Poor choice of words on my side earlier)



It's because they live the "thug life" and apparently women are just property/toys to be used whenever they get horny. 

No girl is taken seriously when she cries "rape" because this is a man's world and she's clearly seeking attention or pleasure by trying to bring her attackers to justice 

Women are vengeful, unpredictable, and full of anger. That's why I'll fight any dude (as long as it doesn't get me arrested), but I will always hesitate to fight a girl.



> ... I don't remember the Cafe being THIS bad...



...I don't remember who you are, so I'm wondering if I should even give 2 shits about your response. It didn't address anything I said and doesn't have any valid points for me to respond to. 

In other words, hot air. Say something intelligent or shut your trap. 



> But let me propose a scenario here, IF the girl did willingly have sex, what kind of world do we live in where a girl has to say she was raped because telling people she had sex with some guys labels her as a monster whore and ruins her life?



Because like I said, this world is run by evil people who view other people (men included) as pawns or cattle that can be manipulated or disposed of. 

Don't tell me _"evil doesn't exist. it's just a subjective concept"_ because I _am_ evil. I've seen what happens when I'm too mad to control myself. I've met gangbangers, ex-cons, whores, thieves, pimps, felons, and killers. Some of them regret their actions and were able to turn their lives around. Others enjoyed what they did and continue to brag about it. 



> And IF this girl was raped, how the fuck is she ever going to get over it with the absurd amount of attention rape victims receive. Yeah it is great the media and the people are on the side of rape victims, but how about instead of making this macabre spectacle of rape victims we just leave them the fuck alone so they can heal. Instead we tell them over and over again how terrible it was, and how it will forever scar and change them and shit, thats not really a helpful message to convey. Leave them to their families and whatever form of therapy they seek and chill the fuck out. Because as it stands we as a collective society probably do about as much damage as the rapists by making the victims a story so we can sit around and find gross entertainment from this shit but say how sad it is so we don't feel guilty. We make them relive their rape again and again because we just deep down are so fascinated with it. And we call the rapists sick?



You may be right.

Getting off on a rape story is far more evil and twisted than an intoxicated teenage boy who just wanted to get laid. Both are evil thoughts and the boy is definitely at fault for taking action. But sometimes a lack of action is one of the most evil things about a person (or country).



> I don't know. I'm not a lawyer



So you're gonna hide behind your lack of professional training to avoid answering a question? Cute.



> Is this on World Star?



Yeah, my roommate is in the other room jacking off to it right now. 



> Cygnus is OBD. Take it with a grain of salt.



Still butthurt I see.


----------



## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Apr 13, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]7_D_zvizzKA[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## IchLiebe (Apr 13, 2013)

Karsh said:


> I'm glad there are outcries _after_ they kill themselves as opposed to after alleged rapes or while the bullying is ongoing


 Bitch is stupid for killing herself and getting to drunk to not be able to defend herself or even know if she consented to a sexual act, surely not the gangraped when passed out. But I do know of instance where a girl gets drunk or just has sex with a guy and cries rape due to her parents bagering her about having sex before marriage or doesn't like the guy cause of some adherent reason. 





> Yeah where slut-shaming a girl has always been ok but HARHAR guys are heroes for being sluts


 Tighter the pussy the better, more experience for men the better. If a lock can be opened by many keys, its a shitty lock. But a key that can open any lock is a master key. ....Get it.





> yeah that needs to stop, it gotta be either one or the other
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I can see, this case of Audrie Pott is the only thread



And correct me if I wrong, but hasn't an arrest warrant been issued 4 weeks ago after the court hearing? So wouldn't that mean that they have already been charged?

Also its not their fault she killed herself, if anything she should be posthumously charged with pre meditated murder. And now these guys don't have the right to face their accusor.


----------



## Deleted member 222538 (Apr 13, 2013)

Blue said:


> What the fuck, I missed this.
> 
> That is the dumbest fucking shit I've ever heard in my life. If that's true I'm a rapist several times over and so are most of the rest of both men and women.



I'm pretty sure that's considered rape if she said she was raped. So I guess you are rapist.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 13, 2013)

Normality said:


> I'm pretty sure that's considered rape if she said she was raped. So I guess you are rapist.



Remember kids, only women can be raped, and if she doesn't remember what happened or regrets it anything from 1 day to 100 years later, it's also rape, and if both are drunk, only the man is held accountable for the actions of both.

What's that, kids? Women should be held accountable for their actions? Oh my, what are you, misogynists or something? That's just silly!


----------



## Huey Freeman (Apr 13, 2013)

Mael said:


> Well I can only deduce that this happened in Halifax...which is close to Newfoundland...which is...yeah...and people thought Winnipeg was a "special" place.



Winnipeg is far worst than newfieland


----------



## Blue (Apr 13, 2013)

Normality said:


> I'm pretty sure that's considered rape if she said she was raped. So I guess you are rapist.



I've also been raped several times while drunk. Should I track down my rapists and press charges?



> Tighter the pussy the better, more experience for men the better. If a lock can be opened by many keys, its a shitty lock. But a key that can open any lock is a master key. ....Get it.


>4chan logic

The logical error here is assuming that women are the locks. Why can't women be the keys?
You say "huur durr the key always goes in the lock, Blue, just like dicks, duh" but then you .


----------



## Zaru (Apr 13, 2013)

In certain relationship-related criteria, promiscuous people suck pretty hard. (Since I doubt the charts for men are much different, I'll consider this as an unisex chart, possibly shifted by age)



I'm aware of the possible issues with this study (such as mixing together city women with religious rural ones), but you can't tell me there's no obvious correlation here. While it's true that women are more likely to be "slutshamed" than men, there are tangible reasons to look down on promiscuity depending on what your priorities are.

And no, those are not necessarily my personal opinions.


----------



## TheSweetFleshofDeath (Apr 13, 2013)

> the girl is dead



killed herself, the method matters.  Suicide in the vast majority of cases is an extremely harmful act.  By killing yourself you deny the positive bonds you built over a lifetime.  My opinion would be the same whether she was dead or alive.  Though if alive at least she could help add some validity with her own story.  She's just transferring her pain to others.  The suicide is a point against her,  not for her.

Though as I said above it deosn't effect my opinion on their trial.


----------



## Deleted member 222538 (Apr 13, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Remember kids, only women can be raped, and if she doesn't remember what happened or regrets it anything from 1 day to 100 years later, it's also rape, and if both are drunk, only the man is held accountable for the actions of both.
> 
> What's that, kids? Women should be held accountable for their actions? Oh my, what are you, misogynists or something? That's just silly!



I never said anything like that at all. Do you hallucinate or something ?



Blue said:


> I've also been raped several times while drunk. Should I track down my rapists and press charges?
> 
> 
> >4chan logic
> ...



If you want to you can. What's your point ?


----------



## Blue (Apr 13, 2013)

Normality said:


> If you want to you can. What's your point ?



I, in fact, cannot. Because getting myself drunk is a choice I made, and anything I do while under the influence and conscious is still my responsibility. Whether that's putting a lampshade on my head, crashing my car, or having sex.

So no, I am neither a rapist nor a rape victim and if you don't want to regret Friday night at the club, drink responsibly.


----------



## Deleted member 222538 (Apr 13, 2013)

Blue said:


> I, in fact, cannot. Because getting myself drunk is a choice I made, and anything I do while under the influence and conscious is still my responsibility. Whether that's putting a lampshade on my head, crashing my car, or having sex.
> 
> So no, I am neither a rapist nor a rape victim and if you don't want to regret Friday night at the club, drink responsibly.



Okay, if you have sex with a girl who is drunk and the next day she says you raped her then that is automatic rape. I thought this was common knowledge. If you don't agree with that then okay but I'm pretty sure that is law.


----------



## Blue (Apr 13, 2013)

Normality said:


> Okay, if you have sex with a girl who is drunk and the next day she says you raped her then that is automatic rape. I thought this was common knowledge. If you don't agree with that then okay but I'm pretty sure that is law.



If she could prove she was "incapacitated" then there would be a case for rape.

Being smashed but still conscious, mobile, and able to give consent is not incapacitation.

Steubenville girl was rape because she, as witnesses described, was having trouble walking and talking, and was not responsive to her accostors. It's common sense that someone too fucked up to walk and talk probably doesn't want to bang, even if they still have enough working brain cells to make it a yes or no question.

No witnesses? Nobody had to carry you anywhere? No signs of forced intercourse?

You're probably not getting a rape conviction, and for good reason.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 13, 2013)

Blue said:


> drink responsibly.



I know this might be easy for me to say as someone who barely drinks at all, but... where the hell did people get the idea that drinking to the point where you might possibly lose control / consciousness and subsequently your memory of what happened... in a space full of strangers... should be totally risk-free without repercussions?


----------



## Blue (Apr 13, 2013)

Well, it's like leaving your car unlocked with the windows open in the wrong part of town.

You're a major league fucking idiot and probably not worth a whole lot of oxygen, but you don't deserve your car ransacked and vandalized, and whoever ends up ransacking and vandalizing your car knew it was wrong and did it anyway.

Nor does someone smashed into borderline unconsciousness deserve to be raped, and someone taking advantage of that is still a rapist.

My mom's opinion is the only thing Stubenville did wrong is take pictures and put them on the internet. 
She also laughed when my xbox got stolen out of my unlocked car.

Some people are more pragmatic than others. I think a little bit of empathy for the stupid doesn't hurt. We've all been stupid once or twice.


----------



## siyrean (Apr 13, 2013)

Zaru said:


> I know this might be easy for me to say as someone who barely drinks at all, but... where the hell did people get the idea that drinking to the point where you might possibly lose control / consciousness and subsequently your memory of what happened... in a space full of strangers... should be totally risk-free without repercussions?



dude, these aren't collage girls, they're in highschool. How do you judge your limit when you don't know what it is? I remember a time when 3 beers would get me smashed, now i need a six pack to be buzzed. And if they're mixing drinks? oh hell, it's lucky no one got alcohol poisoning. 

The thing is, when I went to school, I couldn't see any of my classmates doing this. You think you know them. It would never occur to me that while drinking a pack mentality would form and they'd be okay raping any girl if given the chance. 

I always hear guys getting offended when feminist paint all men as potential rapist but then at the same time think a  girl is incredibly stupid to get drunk around men. You can't have it both ways.


----------



## Blue (Apr 13, 2013)

On that note, I'm going to go get raped. Hopefully.

SEE YA


----------



## sadated_peon (Apr 13, 2013)

Normality said:


> Okay, if you have sex with a girl who is drunk and the next day she says you raped her then that is automatic rape. I thought this was common knowledge. If you don't agree with that then okay but I'm pretty sure that is law.



How is the common knowledge? If you are a woman are both drunk and you both have consenting sex the fact that the next day she says you raped her doesn't mean it was rape. 

If she gives consent to the action under the influence she still gave her consent, just as you gave your consent. 

I am not sexist enough to believe that a woman deserve special protection under the law because she can't be trusted enough to drink alcohol.


----------



## Shaz (Apr 13, 2013)

So many assholes on this planet.


----------



## Mansali (Apr 13, 2013)

Blue said:


> Well, it's like leaving your car unlocked with the windows open in the wrong part of town.
> 
> You're a major league fucking idiot and probably not worth a whole lot of oxygen, but you don't deserve your car ransacked and vandalized, and whoever ends up ransacking and vandalizing your car knew it was wrong and did it anyway.
> 
> ...



And its comments like these that show how bad the culture of rape is in the country (Canada and US). 
Its attitudes like these of taking rape so lightly that are such a big problem in our society.
I can clearly see how the coach in Stubenville must have had a similar mind set and probably thought it was OK to hide what those kids did to that girl.
I wouldnt be surprised if he scolded them for taking the pictures but didnt think they did anything else wrong.


----------



## Misha-San (Apr 13, 2013)

That is so sad. =[


----------



## Stunna (Apr 13, 2013)

siyrean said:


> dude, these aren't collage girls, they're in highschool. How do you judge your limit when you don't know what it is?


Then don't find out around strangers. Simple solution.


----------



## IchLiebe (Apr 14, 2013)

Blue said:


> I, in fact, cannot. Because getting myself drunk is a choice I made, and anything I do while under the influence and conscious is still my responsibility. Whether that's putting a lampshade on my head, crashing my car, or having sex.
> 
> So no, I am neither a rapist nor a rape victim and if you don't want to regret Friday night at the club, drink responsibly.



Thank you. 

This all came about for one reason, She wanted to have a good time and in her eyes that is getting drunk and partying, and in most peoples mind, find someone to fuck. When I go out to party, thats my endgame is to get some. First I get drunk/high then go talk shit to the ladies and hopefully more than 1 will be dtf.

My dad was arguing that those guys should get charged with murder and I responded "Then she should get posthumously charged for underage drinking, and premeditated murder". 

I have friends that have been in the same case as this and had to tell the police/judge whatever form of higher authority that she actually consented and left the house to get in the guys van. She just couldn't remember and woke naked in a van and cried rape when she herself had no idea what she consented to just hours prior. And she honestly felt like she was raped when infact she consented to it and just couldn't remember due to the effects of alcohol. 

Now being date raped drugged is a whole nother game.


Who here goes to a party to have a goodtime that doesn't involve sexual acts.



> Well, it's like leaving your car unlocked with the windows open in the wrong part of town.
> 
> You're a major league fucking idiot and probably not worth a whole lot of oxygen, but you don't deserve your car ransacked and vandalized, and whoever ends up ransacking and vandalizing your car knew it was wrong and did it anyway.


 Correct, If she would;ve kept herself from passing out drunk, I have never been that drunk(usually stop when i start throwing up) then this would've never happened. Although my mom said she was drugged, but I think she's talking about stubeunville.





> Nor does someone smashed into borderline unconsciousness deserve to be raped, and someone taking advantage of that is still a rapist.


 No but she could've consented to that act and when she woke up thought she was raped. 





> My mom's opinion is the only thing Stubenville did wrong is take pictures and put them on the internet.
> She also laughed when my xbox got stolen out of my unlocked car.


 Yes thats where they fucked up as it clearly shows she is uncouncious, but I have yet to see anything other than them holding her up by her limbs, I haven't seen any kind of sexual act of the pictures taken. Although Im not following this as vehemently as some of you. Some women like to be forced. This one girl wanted me to break into her house some random night and rape her, although she was willingly to sign papers detailing the actions, I said fuck that.





> Some people are more pragmatic than others. I think a little bit of empathy for the stupid doesn't hurt. We've all been stupid once or twice.





@Mansali- STFU, this isn't fucking Saudi Arabia where we stoned the girl to death for getting raped.


The one thing I hate about rape/molestation accusations is that your guilty until proven innocent and the burden of proof doesn't fall on the accuser but the accused.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 14, 2013)

The whole rape issue would be so much easier to resolve if there weren't so many false rape accusations.

It's a directly connected duality. We have to intensely question the legitimacy of every rape accusation BECAUSE not doing so would give women the power to ruin a man's life by her word alone (something they partially already have), and that is frankly much worse than rape.
Of course that sadly means various rapists will get away due to lack of evidence.

I'll throw a pretty radical notion into the room: Even if not a single person in the West committed rape anymore, we would still have numerous rape accusations and convictions. It's a much too tempting tool.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Apr 14, 2013)

Zaru said:


> The whole rape issue would be so much easier to resolve if there weren't so many false rape accusations.
> 
> It's a directly connected duality. We have to intensely question the legitimacy of every rape accusation BECAUSE *not doing so would give women the power to ruin a man's life by her word alone (something they partially already have), and that is frankly much worse than rape.*
> Of course that sadly means various rapists will get away due to lack of evidence.
> ...



Wat.

Both are pretty terrible but I dunno about that...


----------



## IchLiebe (Apr 14, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> Wat.
> 
> Both are pretty terrible but I dunno about that...



Well its the truth. Man just got released after 21 years(I believe) for this very thing.

Go back a couple pages and check the threads its there.



> The whole rape issue would be so much easier to resolve if there weren't so many false rape accusations.
> 
> It's a directly connected duality. We have to intensely question the legitimacy of every rape accusation BECAUSE not doing so would give women the power to ruin a man's life by her word alone (something they partially already have), and that is frankly much worse than rape.
> Of course that sadly means various rapists will get away due to lack of evidence.
> ...



And not a single man in this world cry rape.


----------



## Mansali (Apr 14, 2013)

Zaru said:


> The whole rape issue would be so much easier to resolve if there weren't so many false rape accusations.
> 
> It's a directly connected duality. We have to intensely question the legitimacy of every rape accusation BECAUSE not doing so would give women the power to ruin a man's life by her word alone (something they partially already have), and that is frankly much worse than rape.
> Of course that sadly means various rapists will get away due to lack of evidence.
> ...



What are you crazy? Do you have any fact to back that up? 

A lot of rape cases dont even get reported because the victims dont come forward for various reasons. 
The issue we are facing here is encouraging the girls to come forward and to not be afraid of anything and then we have people like you who have no proof to back up your claim and make stuff up that has no validity.
While, what you say may be true in some instances they are not the bigger problem.


----------



## Xiammes (Apr 14, 2013)

> Wat.
> 
> Both are pretty terrible but I dunno about that...



"Bill Gates raped me" giving women unchecked power to call rape on a male would be disastrous, so it is far worse then rape.


----------



## Blue (Apr 14, 2013)

All men should just take libido suppressants and stop prostituting themselves to women. It's unsightly. 

I guess the human race would die out but that's frankly better than rape and false rape accusations.


----------



## Cygnus45 (Apr 14, 2013)

Stunna said:


> Then don't find out around strangers. Simple solution.



^Very logical.

If stupid ass parents let their kids party with random strangers and drink before they've even graduated, then the kids are only partly to blame. This was a life lesson they should have learned in pre-school. However, once you're say 13/14, your brain has developed to the point that you should have enough common sense and independent though to not get into situations like these.

Unfortunately, most people are sheep or would rather be sheep and not be responsible. I have no sympathy for them.



> All men should just take libido suppressants and stop prostituting themselves to women. It's unsightly.
> 
> I guess the human race would die out but that's frankly better than rape and false rape accusations.



I hope this is sarcasm, because it doesn't deserve a serious response.

What about women dressing like skanks and then getting mad when they're stared at?


----------



## Mansali (Apr 14, 2013)

> 54% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police, according to a statistical average of the past 5 years. Those rapists, of course, never spend a day in prison. Factoring in unreported rapes, only about 3% of rapists ever serve a day in jail.


 


And some of you are making it look like theres are soooo many false accusations of rape?



IchLiebe said:


> Thank you.
> 
> @Mansali- STFU, this isn't fucking Saudi Arabia where we stoned the girl to death for getting raped.
> 
> ...



But it is a big problem when high school kids seem to think its ok to slut shame those victims. Im not saying it happens all the time but there have been too many instances of this happening for me to not ignore them.


----------



## Blue (Apr 14, 2013)

Cygnus45 said:


> I hope this is sarcasm, because it doesn't deserve a serious response.
> 
> What about women dressing like skanks and then getting mad when they're stared at?



It is and it isn't.

Men are prostitutes, who get paid in sex and return in kind labor, love, and money, and like prostitutes, sometimes get metaphorically beaten and left bleeding in an alley because nobody cares what happens to a prostitute.

Without a libido, women who "dress like skanks" would just be stupid people in uncomfortable clothing, not a fixation for society. That'd be nice.

But no, I don't want the human race to die.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 14, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> Wat.
> 
> Both are pretty terrible but I dunno about that...



Let's see. The bad effects of non-violent rape (violent rape is a different matter since it adds assault) are in most cases psychological and vary from "nothing" to stuff like "I can never trust men again and am afraid of sex". However, this is not measurable and the degree of damage done has no influence on the legal punishment.
Women can be so heavily affected by it because it takes away their power of sexual selection, which they seem to subconsciously still believe to be their strongest if not only power (can't undo hundreds of thousands of years of evolution with a few decades of feminism), and the fear of pregnancy/STDs.
That's btw the reason why rape of men is not taken that seriously, and children are a different matter altogether.

So basically, rape is mostly psychological. It's about feelings.
(Any crime added on top like violence, imprisonment, threats etc. can be treated for what they are)

Compare that to TANGIBLE effects of accusing/convicting an innocent man of rape. It can cost them their jobs, their social life, loved ones, their FREEDOM for many years if not until they die. They can't just get over it because it depends on everyone around them. If they are not convicted, doubts remain nonetheless. If they are set free later, they get no compensation. 

In many countries you have to fear worse repercussions from "offending" a female coworker than from taking a man's freedom for several years. It's a bizarre travesty of the law.



Mansali said:


> What are you crazy? Do you have any fact to back that up?
> 
> A lot of rape cases dont even get reported because the victims dont come forward for various reasons.
> The issue we are facing here is encouraging the girls to come forward and to not be afraid of anything and then we have people like you who have no proof to back up your claim and make stuff up that has no validity.
> While, what you say may be true in some instances they are not the bigger problem.


54% of rapes go unreported, eh.

To quote someone from a video about this statistic: "Well how the fuck do you know THAT?"
It's an unproven makebelief number. There is literally no way to correctly estimate or measure it. Especially not with the extreme stretching of the term "rape" that has been done in the last decades. 

False rape accusations are of course not as common as actual rape. But they are TOO common to ignore and thus they hurt the victims of rape as well since it makes getting justice harder.



My point is: If we should "tell" men not to rape and women not to become easy victims, we should also teach women to not make false rape accusations. They are part of the core problem.


----------



## siyrean (Apr 14, 2013)

why do people keep saying she passed out around strangers. They weren't strangers in any of these cases. They were all classmates, people she may not have trusted with her life but certainly would have trusted not to rape her at the first opportunity. At 15, you don't expect the guy who sits behind you in math class to act like that. 

The whole mentality that if you pass out then it's your own fault is exactly why this is happening. Boys think, well she passed out, now I can do anything scott free because she didn't say no and it's her own fault. 

I have to wonder if there's a study out there that shows how many rapists get away with it compared to how many men are falsely convicted. I've got a feeling the disparity would be staggering. Convicting someone of rape is not easy, you guys make it sound like all you have to do is point a finger.


----------



## Blue (Apr 14, 2013)

siyrean said:


> I have to wonder if there's a study out there that shows how many rapists get away with it compared to how many men are falsely convicted. I've got a feeling the disparity would be staggering. Convicting someone of rape is not easy, you guys make it sound like all you have to do is point a finger.



There isn't, that's the problem. If we could know conclusively how many people get away with rape vs. how many are falsely accused, everyone could stop being butthurt and start talking about what needs to be done. 

I personally suspect that most violent rapists only get away with it when they can't be identified.
For nonviolent rape, there's a grey area between bad sex and rape.

If you want to eliminate that grey area, you need to use the R word, not the N word. If you're not willing to say "you're raping me" you shouldn't come back later and say it was. 99.9% of erections will be fully dismantled and scuttled with the word rape used.

>What if he's too dangerous to scream rape at?
Then it's obviously rape.
>What if you're unconscious/can't say anything?
Also rape.


----------



## "Shion" (Apr 14, 2013)

Y'all a bunch of morons.


----------



## Plague (Apr 14, 2013)

Those guys shouldn't have raped her, but I also think it was stupid of her to get drunk and pass out, out in the open like that. It's plain irresponsible.


----------



## Zhariel (Apr 14, 2013)

We'll never know if they did rape her, and if her killing herself somehow further convinces you that they did, then wow. All we know is it's a shame she was treated poorly by her classmates, for whatever reason.


----------



## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Apr 14, 2013)

Maybe she just had a gang bang with the four guys but we will never know.


----------



## Jena (Apr 14, 2013)

The amount of victim-blaming in this thread is sickening. I'm not talking about the people who are discussing whether or not she was actually raped, but the people who are like "well you shouldn't get drunk if you don't want to get raped derp" because that's fucking idiotic and disgusting and it represents everything wrong with western society's attitude about rape. If you're passed-out drunk, that's no excuse for others to rape you. Ever. The focus shouldn't be "don't be raped," it should be "don't rape."


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Apr 15, 2013)

"rape has no tangible effects"

Welp I'm out.


----------



## Tiger (Apr 15, 2013)

Zaru said:


> However, the choice of picture in the article (outdoors with a cute dog) is quite peculiar and omits some fancy little details about her personality. Her twitter account is full of weed pictures, *she had a huge ass tattoo on her arm*, she was a cliche stoner and partygoer. It seems she was already rumored as an attention whore. (No, I am not saying that's an excuse for rape, come on)



Because only whores get tattoos. And smoke weed, for that matter. The fact that you, and others in our society, see those things as a "clarifying story-teller" to her character is illustrating a huge share of the problem we're discussing here.



			
				Zaru said:
			
		

> What really killed her were her classmates. They made her life hell and showed no sympathy. But some people are trying to make the names of the accused public and ruin their lives.
> Would I defend rapists? Hell no. Do I have a problem with internet warriors trying to play social justice vigilante out of conjecture? Yes.



Because you're right, she didn't die because of the gang-rape. She died because of her peers, classmates, parents, teachers, perhaps even her own family with the "I want to believe her" look of pity. You never know unless you're there, what exactly she was put through...not so much by the pathetic boys at the party, but by the other people around her after the fact.

And I agree. The whole soap-box hero politics of having someone try and "reach out to Anonymous" to provide pay-back is astonishing. What happens when one fraction of an internet community somewhere decides those boys need to die, finds them, and kills them? In that situation, I'd love to put the guy who went to the media to plead for their involvement to be charged the same as the ones who actually "pull the trigger". Or do people not believe that vigilante (or cold-blooded) murder is on the horizon at some point for these nameless/faceless internet bodies?



siyrean said:


> *You are far more likely to be raped here than in the states*



Fuck right off. What a stupid, and completely baseless, bullshit thing to say.



siyrean said:


> At 15, you don't expect the guy who sits behind you in math class to act like that.
> 
> The whole mentality that if you pass out then it's your own fault is exactly why this is happening. Boys think, well she passed out, now I can do anything scott free because she didn't say no and it's her own fault.



At 15, every boy is "capable" of taking advantage of an opportune situation to get his dick wet, and be seen as a badass by his buddies.

Every last person in this thread who said or thinks _it's her own fault for getting drunk and passing out_ needs to stop posting and get the fuck out. Just permanently. Check out of the life line, go elsewhere so we don't have to waste time dealing with you. Most people have passed out at a party, or in theirs or someone else's home with "friends and acquaintances" around. Get off your horse and put it back in the stable, please. Passing out from having a few too many is not a free ticket ride to field a bunch of dicks, no matter what age you are. That is no different from saying "If she didn't want to be groped on the train, she wouldn't have worn such a tight-fitting sweater." So kindly fuck you.



Blue said:


> If you want to eliminate that grey area, you need to use the R word, not the N word. If you're not willing to say "you're raping me" you shouldn't come back later and say it was. 99.9% of erections will be fully dismantled and scuttled with the word rape used.
> 
> >What if he's too dangerous to scream rape at?
> Then it's obviously rape.
> ...



I do agree here. But you're forgetting something, or conveniently ignoring the fact that if women in these situations were coherent enough to gauge their situation and decide intelligently what to say, they wouldn't be in those situations to begin with. And if they are coherent, and able to scream rape, it's obviously of the 'violent rape' type...but if she's unable to coherently handle herself and understand the gravity of the situation at the time that four guys are running train on her, that does not make it a false accusation the next day when she realizes she was raped the night before. And no amount of "she probably enjoyed it" or what she may have been doing when pictures/video was taken changes that.

It is a problem that there are so many girls out there who are low enough on the human-being-spectrum to use fake accusations as a weapon, however, I would argue that the amount of girls who are well and truly raped, but shamed into keeping quiet about it far, far, far outweigh the amount of girls who say they were raped when they know for a fact they weren't.



Plague said:


> Those guys shouldn't have raped her, but I also think it was stupid of her to get drunk and pass out, out in the open like that. It's plain irresponsible.



Where is the line drawn for this ^ bullshit?

"Those guys shouldn't have killed her, but I also think it was stupid of her to get drunk and pass out, out in the open like that. It's plain irresponsible."

At no point does her being drunk and passed out mean that she should be fair game to be abused. If, of course, that is what happened.

There's a fine line between "yeah this is ok" and "yeah this is not ok".

I strongly resist the notion that every time you have sex with someone who has been drinking that rape was somehow involved by default. I sort of think anyone who argues that stance has no true understanding of how life outside their home works.

That said, any of us who have been to a party knows when someone has had too much. And I have never been to a party where everyone had had too much all at the same time. Do people imagine parties to be all fun and games, and then all of a sudden at 2am, everyone's clothes come off because a switch was flipped and everyone at the same time became too drunk to understand the situation or make decisions?

It is easy for a group of young guys to go to a party and target a girl to gangbang at some point during the night if she's still around and by herself. If her plan was to crash there at her friend's house, and she is the type who likes to "keep going into the wee hours" so people won't see her as boring. It's easy for a group of young guys to pinpoint the girl who's eager for people to think she's a "gamer" (and I don't mean video games), and who won't "pussy out" when the drinking really gets going, even after most people are passed out or gone home.

Because in mostly all these stories, what you don't hear is about all the other people at the party trying to stop it, or who call the victim's parents, etc. Because a) they didn't care, or b) they weren't there. I haven't been to a _real_ party in quite a while. But when I was 15-20, it was just about every other weekend. It was an unhealthy amount of drinking, something I didn't know then that I know now. But I can tell you...any party I was ever at, that kinda shit just didn't go down while the party was underway. No one ever "accidentally" finds themselves in a MMMMF orgy at a high school/middle school party.

My gut tells me those boys targeted that girl, hoping to get to the endgame they got to. Does that necessarily mean she wasn't on-board? No, but odds are she went from 0% to 100% on-board the more tequila/vodka/coolers went down her throat. And I'd put cash down on the idea that a lot of the alcohol in her system was put there at the encouragement of one or more of those charming young guys who were hoping it would lead to shaky inhibitions.

What's sad is there was no one there to help her, protect her. The fact that anyone, especially young girls would ever go to a party without true friends to protect them in some way is downright baffling. And perhaps the realization of that in the months that followed was the true catalyst for her depression. When all her "friends", classmates, etc. torture her to the point where she'd rather just not exist than have to look in the mirror, how can anyone say it's not related?

You can't _fix this_ by punishing four stupid, pathetic, horny young guys.

The real shitheads are each and every person reading this who has done to someone else what her friends and classmates did to her. The people who use shame as a weapon, and treat sex like something disgusting and perverse. Those who would rather make sure everyone knows "she might have wanted it" rather than just show her _the most basic_ human compassion, understanding and forgiveness.

Besides a select few in this entire forum, I'd say we're all guilty at some time or another of furthering this disgusting show of human nature.


----------



## Plague (Apr 15, 2013)

Law said:


> *Where is the line drawn for this ^ bullshit?*
> 
> "Those guys shouldn't have killed her, but I also think it was stupid of her to get drunk and pass out, out in the open like that. It's plain irresponsible."
> 
> ...




Where it says "snip" I didn't bother to read your overreacting (though deleting that wall of text made me lol). I never said she "fair game". I said she was irresponsible. 

I don't think she deserved to be raped, but I still think she didn't exactly take any precautions. 

It's like leaving your wallet at a mall. Or your car parked, and unlocked in a bad part of town. A little cynicism goes a long way. 

Just plain irresponsible. Calm the fuck down bro.


----------



## Mansali (Apr 15, 2013)

Plague said:


> Where it says "snip" I didn't bother to read your overreacting (though deleting that wall of text made me lol). I never said she "fair game". I said she was irresponsible.
> 
> I don't think she deserved to be raped, but I still think she didn't exactly take any precautions.
> 
> ...



Your attitude isn't right....which is the problem, 

Part of the solution is to better educate the guys and girls and people with your attitude. But with the funding cuts to education it's gonna be an even harder hurdle.

Don't blame her! She did nothing wrong here. With a better sex education class she may have been more aware of the problem,,,,but it's never Ok to blame the victim. 

When a kid gets kidnapped for talking to a stranger, you put the full blame on the stranger.  Regardless of what the kid could have done to avoid the mess, it was never their fault. 

The decision was made by the rapists/kidnapper. By putting even a little blame on the victim, you are kind of saying that she had it coming.


----------



## Tiger (Apr 15, 2013)

Mansali said:


> Your attitude isn't right....which is the problem,



This. And stated much kinder than I would have. You, Plague, are a _big_ part of the problem.


----------



## Plague (Apr 15, 2013)

Mansali said:


> Your attitude isn't right....which is the problem,
> 
> Part of the solution is to better educate the guys and girls and people with your attitude. But with the funding cuts to education it's gonna be an even harder hurdle.



My attitude is fine. I think what happened to her is horrible, but I think she was irresponsible. That doesn't make what everyone else did okay, but it also shows she wasn't the type to think about consequences. 

Seriously dude, grow a pair. Do you expect me to cry over this? It happens every day in this country. Better decisions in the present will mean a better future and therefore a better past. 

I'm sorry, but this girl was careless. I blame her peers and family too. But ultimately, it was her decision to go out and party like a dumbass.


----------



## Blue (Apr 15, 2013)

So we're supposed to pretend that getting drunk off your ass - AT AGE 16 - while surrounded by drunk people you shouldn't trust -

ISN'T stupid as hell?

Just because she got raped?

Yes, it was rape. And yes, the rapists are despicable and aren't any less terrible because the person they took advantage of was really, really stupid.

But she was really, really stupid and that fact should be repeated as often as possible to encourage other young women not to make the same mistake.

I mean, it would be nice if every drunk teenage boy remembered Stubenville and acted honorably, but the problem is that this is reality.

It'll be forgotten by next month and teenage boys don't pay attention to the news anyway. 

Teach young girls - or anyone - that it's okay to use alcohol irresponsibly and you're doing them a grave disservice.


----------



## Jena (Apr 15, 2013)

Blue said:


> So we're supposed to pretend that getting drunk off your ass - AT AGE 16 - while surrounded by drunk people you shouldn't trust -
> 
> ISN'T stupid as hell?
> 
> Just because she got raped?



Maybe we should focus on teaching people not to rape and teaching teens what rape is. There is a lot of misunderstanding about it, particularly about how alcohol factors in.

And yes, you can go through preventative measures to _reduce_ your likelihood of being raped, but you could never leave your house and wear a damn burka all the time and still be raped. If she hadn't drunk that night, maybe she wouldn't have been raped. Maybe she would have anyway.

And it's mind-blowingly sad that we live in a world where people have to worried about getting drunk because they fear about getting raped. It's not going to magically and suddenly change, I know, but I also think that it's sad that the focus in these cases is usually "look at what happens when you drink" and not "don't rape people, asshole."


----------



## Blue (Apr 15, 2013)

Jena said:


> And it's mind-blowingly sad that we live in a world where people have to worried about getting drunk because they fear about getting raped.



That's not even the first in a long list of reasons to worry about getting drunk.



> I also think that it's sad that the focus in these cases is usually "look at what happens when you drink" and not "don't rape people, asshole."


Can we maybe do both?


----------



## Cygnus45 (Apr 15, 2013)

> So we're supposed to pretend that getting drunk off your ass - AT AGE 16 - while surrounded by drunk people you shouldn't trust -
> 
> ISN'T stupid as hell?
> 
> Just because she got raped?



No, you're not the only one in the thread with a brain 

It's just the hardcore "feminists" trying to remove all blame on the girl for being an irresponsible idiot. First of all, it's illegal to drink if you're 16. A harsh judge could easily try her as an adult for not only drinking, but gangbanging 4 guys. No girl does that unless she was already either A) very reckless and adventurous or B) a total slut. You don't get a quiet shy girl drunk and then BOOM! 2 hours later she's having an orgy with guys she just met!  

^Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Either she was raped, or she was an irresponsible little slut and her parents were tired of her shit. I don't see many other options here. You're not gonna be the smartest person you'll ever be at 16, but it's safe to assume you're a little bit smarter than you were at, say 12. Most people know by 12 not to hang out with people you don't know at a bar, get drunk, and have orgies. It's fucking illegal, first of all, and if they don't know that by 16 then they must have had some neglectful/shitty parents. This society, I swear... 



> And yes, you can go through preventative measures to reduce your likelihood of being raped, but you could never leave your house and wear a damn burka all the time and still be raped. If she hadn't drunk that night, maybe she wouldn't have been raped. Maybe she would have anyway.



Maybe the problem isn't rape, it's girls not giving up the pussy. 

Guys are horny creatures, but not all of us are rapista. Like me, I'd probably sweet talk you into a dark alley, slam you against a dumpster, and deposit my sperm into you then beat you up so you don't call the cops.. But not ALL of us think like that. Some guys are actually, idk, NICE and treat women well, and take them to dinner and shit? Remember those days? It wasn't all bad, until women started to crave power and became educated/went into the workforce and forced guys to become sex slaves with benefits 

Wait, guys still do that. I'm assuming your either a woman or a gay guy because clearly you think "chivalry is dead" and you think all guys are out to rape you. Well honey, how about taking a boxing class or going to the gym or something. And if you think everyone's staring at you and licking their lips, you can either:

A) Hire a private martial arts tutor
B) Carry some pepper spray/mace/a knife/brass knuckles
C) Find a guy who you like so you'll feel protected, but that's too logical so you won't listen
D) Get laid every once in a while so you don't fear THE PHALLUS.

Guys like women and will do just about anything to get their hands on one. Food, sports, and women. That's what we like, and it's the only thing calming us down and preventing our hormones from absolutely dominating our every thought, feeling, and action. Women calm us down. You wouldn't know unless you were a guy so stop being so judgmental.

Oh, and men can calm women down too. Why do you think women read erotic novels or watch sappy movies about "prince charming" sweeping some stressed/overworked/abused women off her feet or finding the "perfect guy"? *See, pornos taint the youth and raise unrealistic expectations in young men, but it goes both ways. "Love stories" teach girls from an early age that a guy is going to appear out of nowhere, solve their problems, and then they can sit on their ass for the rest of their lives making babies* (or in today's society, sitting on their ass eating and spreading their legs once in a while when they're horny and they feel like summoning their boy-toy).



> And it's mind-blowingly sad that we live in a world where people have to worried about getting drunk because they fear about getting raped. It's not going to magically and suddenly change, I know, but I also think that it's sad that the focus in these cases is usually "look at what happens when you drink" and not "don't rape people, asshole."



If a 14 year-old kid rapes his 36 year old smoking hot spanish teacher, the dad is going to give him a high-5 and take him to Disney Land.

Sad, but true. That's the world we live in. Deal with it.


----------



## Blue (Apr 15, 2013)

And then there's this guy.


----------



## Lina Inverse (Apr 15, 2013)

the hell did I just read?


----------



## Jena (Apr 15, 2013)

Blue said:


> That's not even the first in a long list of reasons to worry about getting drunk.


No, it's not. But it's a pretty big concern.



> Can we maybe do both?


Yes, and we should. The focus now seems to be on one end and not the other, when both really should be taught to people.



Cygnus45 said:


> Wait, guys still do that. I'm assuming your either a woman or a gay guy because clearly you think "chivalry is dead" and you think all guys are out to rape you. Well honey, how about taking a boxing class or going to the gym or something.


I'm not sure if you're just a troll or if you're mentally deranged, but I never said anything about "chivalry" being dead or that every guy wants to rape me, stop projecting. Rape can happen to anyone regardless of gender, that's a fact of life. Arming yourself and taking preventative measures isn't a guarantee that you're not going to be assaulted.

Also what the fuck are you and what is your post I can't even.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Apr 15, 2013)

Cygnus45 said:


> Retardation


----------



## Zaru (Apr 15, 2013)

Let's summarize some key points

- "Questionable rape" (where you can even ask the question if it WAS rape) is not the main contributor to true rape statistics, but the major issue in this particular case/thread
- It is sensible, not victim blaming, to tell women to watch out for themselves/each other and not do reckless things, as long as it doesn't reach arab levels of paranoia
- It is also sensible to raise awareness among young males about what can be constituted as rape
- Many young people are very "sexually liberated" nowadays, which means having lots of sex with different people AND doing so under influence of alcohol. Certain types of guys are thus surrounded by easy, willing females jumping on their dicks, and thus will not consider the whole "consent" issue since they are so used to unspoken consent. I am 95% sure that this is what motivated the males in this canadian case. (Spreading the pictures around was an entirely different matter though)



Nightbringer said:


> "rape has no tangible effects"
> 
> Welp I'm out.


I explicitly said that any charge on top of the rape (which in itself is purely sexual actions without consent) can be treated as what it is. THOSE are the tangible effects, but they aren't exclusive or special to rape, are they?
Everything else is up to the personality of the victim. A very convincing actor could make us believe he/she is extremely traumatized. An actual victim could be extremely traumatized but wouldn't show signs of it. How are we going to measure that? Even endless questioning by psychologists wouldn't deliver a sure answer, let alone an unbiased one, no to mention it would hurt the psyche of victims even more, and you can't objectively classify emotional trauma to begin with.
Basing life-changing legal decisions on "feelings" is a huge mess, let's not go there.


----------



## Jαmes (Apr 15, 2013)

lol bottom line, rapists were wrong, what they did was wrong, and the weight on the blame is obviously on them, but the girl also had a part in what happened to her. it doesn't mean it's her fault per se, but it does mean she could have been more smart about it. if there's any education we need to impart on our kids and young adults, it's that raping is incredibly wrong, and that avoiding it by being smarter about what we do is prudent and should be observed.


----------



## ShiggyDiggyDoo (Apr 16, 2013)

This fucked up mind set that the only way to prevent rape is via teaching kids how to avoid it is wrong. It doesn't really solve the problem and creates a situation where you can actually *blame* the victim of the rape because we have become a society where it's okay to do that since it's normally assumed by others that it's the girl's responsibility to make sure she doesn't get raped.

Instead of teaching how to avoid it, we must teach the kids and young adults of this generation to not rape, otherwise we may see more cases like this and Steubenville.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 16, 2013)

I keep seeing this phrase

"Teach xyz not to rape"

Yet nobody seems to bother explaining how you "teach" something like that.
It's pretty much guaranteed that all those "teachings" will be forgotten once alcohol/drugs are in play, anyway.


----------



## Mansali (Apr 16, 2013)

Zaru said:


> I keep seeing this phrase
> 
> "Teach xyz not to rape"
> 
> ...



You teach that in the schools. 

You have better sex education in classes. Instead of cutting funding to education, you teach this stuff to them pretty early. 

The reason why these kids did this thing was probably because they didnt think it was rape or they thought it was cool. It seems like boys are rewarded for how many girls they can get but the girl get shamed by the school. 

If you talk about these sensitive topics in school with both boys and girls it might have a significant difference.



Spartan1337 said:


> This fucked up mind set that the only way to prevent rape is via teaching kids how to avoid it is wrong. It doesn't really solve the problem and creates a situation where you can actually *blame* the victim of the rape because we have become a society where it's okay to do that since it's normally assumed by others that it's the girl's responsibility to make sure she doesn't get raped.
> 
> Instead of teaching how to avoid it, we must teach the kids and young adults of this generation to not rape, otherwise we may see more cases like this and Steubenville.



Yeah! People don't seem to get this. Also they dont understand that by having this attitude they are kind of part of the problem also. 

Im sure many girls may choose not to report their rape because they think society would blame them.


----------



## siyrean (Apr 16, 2013)

Zaru said:


> I keep seeing this phrase
> 
> "Teach xyz not to rape"
> 
> ...



i think it's pretty clear that many guys don't realise that having sex with a girl who in incoherant it rape. or not "_rape_ rape". They think there's a difference between physically restraining a person and forcing them, and what happened here. Teach them that there's not. If you expect girls to be smart to not get drunk around guys, teach guys to be smart and not have sex with a drunk girl in case they claim rape the next day.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 16, 2013)

Ironically, a lot of women prefer to have sex while drunk and almost a tenth even like to be completely wasted during the act. (Yes, there are studies about that)
Combine it with the "common cultural knowledge" that women often mean the opposite of what they say.
Considering that, good luck teaching men the opposite of what they observe in life. A lot of them will disregard it.

What's bothering me: In these rapes, the men are often "under the influence" as well. We hold everyone accountable for what they do after voluntarily fogging up their decision making process. (See: Drunk driving etc.)
Now why is the girl always the "victim" when both are drunk? The argument is always "She would not have consented to have sex if she knew what was going on".
Well guess what, a drunk guy most likely would not have consented to the sex if he knew she'd consider it rape. But when did that ever pass as an excuse, even though his life is screwed up more than hers? Imagine the situation in reverse, the chances of that going through are miniscule. 
Sorry but this double standard is just... a perpetuation of archaic stereotypes where men are all aggressive animals driven by their sexual instincts and where women are on the mental level of children who are not held responsible for their actions.

Anyway, "Not able to consent" rape does not make up the bulk of rapes though, does it? Especially since it's hard to prove. Now how do you teach the violent rapists "not to rape"? They're aware that they're breaking the law. They still do it.


----------



## Blue (Apr 16, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Combine it with the "common cultural knowledge" that women often mean the opposite of what they say.
> Considering that, good luck teaching men the opposite of what they observe in life. A lot of them will disregard it.



Yeah, basically. 
No really doesn't mean no. No means "I don't want to seem too eager about this because of the social and personal stigma society attaches to women who enjoy sex, especially with men we've met recently, but please fuck me."

That's something we could probably work on as a society, but in the meantime, like I said, use the R word, not the N word.


----------



## Sarry (Apr 16, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Let's summarize some key points
> 
> - "Questionable rape" (where you can even ask the question if it WAS rape) is not the main contributor to true rape statistics, but the major issue in this particular case/thread
> - It is sensible, not victim blaming, to tell women to watch out for themselves/each other and not do reckless things, as long as it doesn't reach arab levels of paranoia
> ...



Pretty much this. 
It is a shame that such a thing happened
Both sides were at fault, to a certain degree, as both were under the influence and weren't thinking right.


----------



## sadated_peon (Apr 16, 2013)

What I find most interesting about this situation is that all the people who detest "slut shaming", hold being a slut as shameful. They seem to be against the act of pointing it out, not the assumption that being a slut is shameful. 

Think about if the situation was reversed. 
A picture came out at school of a drunk guy having sex with 3 girls? 
Do you think your immediate reaction would be that this poor guy got raped? or that he was too incapacitated by alcohol to make rational decisions?
Or would you assume that he sought OUT a sexual interaction with 3 women?

The immediate assumption made by people is that she was raped or too drunk because of the assumption that she wouldn't WANT to have sex with 3 guys if she was in the correct state of mind. 
That it is SO SHAMEFUL that she would want to have group sex that she must have been raped. 

She did not accuse the guys of rape until after the public humiliation, the fact is that whether she was publicly slut shammed or not, it is clear that most people still find it shameful they just prefer to keep it to themselves.


----------



## Cygnus45 (Apr 16, 2013)

Blue said:


> Yeah, basically.
> No really doesn't mean no. No means "I don't want to seem too eager about this because of the social and personal stigma society attaches to women who enjoy sex, especially with men we've met recently, but please fuck me."
> 
> That's something we could probably work on as a society, but in the meantime, like I said, use the R word, not the N word.



Or how about being honest?

Guys (not all of them, but the majority) hate being teased, hate jumping through hoops, being led on, and having their emotions played with. Girls think it's ok, but if we do the same thing to them we're the badguys 

Now, I can totally understand if a guy is harassing/stalking a girl and it starts to get out of hand. But if he's talked to a girl for the 3rd time he either wants to have sex or, zomg, he _actually cares_ about you and wants to go out with you!  So instead of playing with his emotions, just tell him "yes" or "no". If he can't get over it, then whoop de fucking doo.

Everyone (guys are at fault here too sometimes) makes everything overly complicated. Everyone's got an ego, a hidden agenda, and a bad-temper. That's why there's so much chaos in the world: unless your face is on the cover of sports illustrated or teen magazine you're NOBODY, so stop acting all high and mighty. 



sadated_peon said:


> What I find most interesting about this situation is that all the people who detest "slut shaming", hold being a slut as shameful. They seem to be against the act of pointing it out, not the assumption that being a slut is shameful.
> 
> Think about if the situation was reversed.
> A picture came out at school of a drunk guy having sex with 3 girls?
> ...



1-I don't actually have a problem with "sluts", or "outgoing" girls, so long as they don't have STD's. That's society who has a problem with them.

2-That's a trick question, right? Either he's a womanizer, or he was some shy/lonely kid who was tricked into getting stoned or drunk and end up being surrounded by woman. Either way, he's gonna look at the photo the next day with a smile on his face.

3-Again, that's society making assumptions. Some women are downright dirty, they just don't want to admit it for personal/honor related reasons.

*In this case, it doesn't matter because the girl was underage and shouldn't have been drinking in the first place.*

And if she accused them _after_ the investigation, then...she just might have been a slut and her family was tired of "putting up" with her. Wrong? Yes, parents should show unconditional love to their kids. But hey, none of us were there or had anything to do with the situation, so don't get mad at us.


----------



## Saishin (Apr 27, 2013)

What a tragic story


----------



## ImperatorMortis (Apr 27, 2013)

Stunna said:


> Then don't find out around strangers. Simple solution.



Captain Hindsight everybody.


----------



## Jon Moxley (Apr 27, 2013)

sad tragedy, and looks like those guys have no remorse for what they did . I wonder if today's teens are more prone for more darker thoughts because they admire criminals and villains a lot more now and have no sympathy for anyone but themselves.


----------



## Tekkenman11 (Apr 28, 2013)

The guys are automatic douches for spreading the photos around. That's when you know you're too immature to handle shit. I'd beat the fuck out of them for just that.

The classmates are also idiots, they're so pathetic and insecure they get sick satisfaction out of humiliating someone else with no influence or importance in their life. I honestly don't understand how there could be such dumb people out there because while my high school wasn't perfect we didn't have this stupid shit happening.

As for the victim all I can say is that she could have been more careful, but that's only in hindsight and she's dead anyway so whatever else that needs to be said isn't of importance. She took the details and the context with her to her grave. 

R.I.P


----------



## horsdhaleine (Apr 28, 2013)

Rape or not, if a intimate picture of mine goes online, I'd go crazy. Maybe not enough to commit suicide but will retreat into oblivion for a period of time.

People feasting on other people's intimate photos (without their consent) can feel very violating. I'm sure the word harassed would be an understatement.

It's sad that after what she has gone through, the harassment it did not just end there. Dressing up sexily, flirting and expermenting with weed are not a license to be raped. While I believe young girls whould be mindful of their actions towards men (they get turned on easily, as what I have observed); I believe young guys should also be consistenly taught and disciplined - by the parents, by the school, by the community. Both gender should learn self control but moreso the person who appears to be more dominating, whether physically, emotionally or mentally. You can't control people who want to experiment but they should know their limitations. No means no. A yes under pressure and control is not really a yes. That and some fantasies (like rape fantasies) work best in the context of fiction and or in someone's imagination. It doesn't have to be acted out.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2013)

Hey but there's no problem at all, this is just how things are. Nothing to be concerned about. Women have it good today. People only call them sluts when they have consensual sex or get raped. And we all know rape is totally their fault for being such teases and how they dress. There's nothing wrong with our culture. If anything we should just all wait till this whole thing is out of our heads and in the meantime let's not make an effort to change a damn thing.


----------



## PureWIN (Apr 29, 2013)

I don't know if you guys know this, but last week's Law and Order: SVU episode was basically this story "ripped from the headlines".


----------



## Blue (Apr 29, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Hey but there's no problem at all, this is just how things are. Nothing to be concerned about. Women have it good today. People only call them sluts when they have consensual sex or get raped. And we all know rape is totally their fault for being such teases and how they dress. There's nothing wrong with our culture. If anything we should just all wait till this whole thing is out of our heads and in the meantime let's not make an effort to change a damn thing.



Hey but there's no problem at all, this is just how things are. Nothing to be concerned about. Men have it good today. People only call them rapists when they have consensual sex or are embarrassed about having sex with something as disgusting as a man. And we all know all sex is totally their fault for being such uncontrollable animals and how they act. There's nothing wrong with our culture. If anything we should just all wait till this whole thing is out of our heads and in the meantime let's not make an effort to change a damn thing.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2013)

Sounds like the excuses a rapist would make. It's nice to actually know you're better than someone. Thanks for constantly proving that, Blue.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 29, 2013)

Blue said:


> Hey but there's no problem at all, this is just how things are. Nothing to be concerned about. Men have it good today. People only call them rapists when they have consensual sex or are embarrassed about having sex with something as disgusting as a man. And we all know all sex is totally their fault for being such uncontrollable animals and how they act. There's nothing wrong with our culture. If anything we should just all wait till this whole thing is out of our heads and in the meantime let's not make an effort to change a damn thing.





Like they're not all the same problems.


SAME PROBLEMS.

SAME SOLUTIONS.

Guess what's not part of the solution?

"This girl had a tattoo and maybe smoked pot once or twice, so clearly she's just a lying slut who regretted having sex and cried rape!"


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2013)

You didn't know men had it bad? We have to wear condoms and pay child support. Nothing we do is ever our fault. This is the world according to Blue from his privileged position high atop his ivory fucking tower. Women should feel proud just to sit upon his holy cock.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

Blue said:


> Hey but there's no problem at all, this is just how things are. Nothing to be concerned about. Men have it good today. People only call them rapists when they have consensual sex or are embarrassed about having sex with something as disgusting as a man. And we all know all sex is totally their fault for being such uncontrollable animals and how they act. There's nothing wrong with our culture. If anything we should just all wait till this whole thing is out of our heads and in the meantime let's not make an effort to change a damn thing.


----------



## horsdhaleine (Apr 29, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> I have friends that have been in the same case as this and had to tell the police/judge whatever form of higher authority that she actually consented and left the house to get in the guys van. She just couldn't remember and woke naked in a van and cried rape when she herself had no idea what she consented to just hours prior. And she honestly felt like she was raped when in fact she consented to it and just couldn't remember due to the effects of alcohol.



Getting consent to get out of the house and getting inside a man's van doesn't mean she's consenting to get raped.

I work with lots of men in their 30-60s. Just because I'm in the same van/hotel/resort/conference hall as them doesn't mean they can touch me. 

But yes, alcohol intake should be controlled. Some people abuse such substances at a very early age - both males and females.


----------



## Roman (Apr 29, 2013)

Tekkenman11 said:


> The guys are automatic douches for spreading the photos around. That's when you know you're too immature to handle shit. I'd beat the fuck out of them for just that.
> 
> The classmates are also idiots, they're so pathetic and insecure they get sick satisfaction out of humiliating someone else with no influence or importance in their life. I honestly don't understand how there could be such dumb people out there because while my high school wasn't perfect we didn't have this stupid shit happening.
> 
> ...



I have to agree with this. Whether or not the sex was consented by both parties, to spread pictures around to humiliate her was a lot worse than her being a slut. Whether or not it was rape, they still have a degree of responsibility toward her death and that shouldn't be ignored.

As for the rape itself, it is true that one should still be held responsible for their actions when drunk because getting drunk is a choice made by the individual. However, there's also to consider that if a girl gets drunk, has sex with one or more guys and doesn't remember any of it, should she simply shrug it off and blame herself for allowing it to happen? No. It should be painfully easy to see how she'd feel violated. That the boys spread pics of the event only added insult to injury.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

horsdhaleine said:


> Getting consent to get out of the house and getting inside a man's van doesn't mean she's consenting to get raped.


But it also doesn't mean she didn't consent to have sex. Getting drunk to the point where you suffer from memory loss is usually your own fault.

We can't just jail people because someone "honestly feels like a victim".
Because then a drunk girl forcing herself onto a drunk guy and not remembering it the next day would make her a rape victim


----------



## Roman (Apr 29, 2013)

Zaru said:


> But it also doesn't mean she didn't consent to have sex. Getting drunk to the point where you suffer from memory loss is usually your own fault.
> 
> We can't just jail people because someone "honestly feels like a victim".
> Because then a drunk girl forcing herself onto a drunk guy and not remembering it the next day would make her a rape victim



But what if she was raped but neither she nor the rapist remember what happened? All the girl knows is that she woke up naked in a van. Should she not feel violated and instead blame herself for whatever happened because she was drunk?


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

> But it also doesn't mean she didn't consent to have sex.



Wait, what ?


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Freedan said:


> But what if she was raped but neither she nor the rapist remember what happened? All the girl knows is that she woke up naked in a van. Should she not feel violated and instead blame herself for whatever happened because she was drunk?


If you don't remember what happened then the first step should be trying to piece together what happened, obviously. Automatically being in the mindset of a rape victim will not allow for any rational analysis of the events.

But who am I kidding, since women are told everyone's a potential rapist and they're not responsible for their drunken actions, you can throw rational analysis out of the window.


Elim Rawne said:


> Wait, what ?


We're talking about IchLiebe's anecdote here.


----------



## Roman (Apr 29, 2013)

Zaru said:


> If you don't remember what happened then the first step should be trying to piece together what happened, obviously. Automatically being in the mindset of a rape victim will not allow for any rational analysis of the events.



That's more sensible. Rape kits exist for a reason, as uncomfortable as it may be for women out there 



Zaru said:


> But who am I kidding, since women are told everyone's a potential rapist and they're not responsible for their drunken actions, you can throw rational analysis out of the window.



That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, if a girl suddenly wakes up naked somewhere she doesn't know, that she'd be scared of what happened to her should be easily understandable. She should try and piece events together but plenty of people can tell that's nigh impossible after a night of drinking at times.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Freedan said:


> That's more sensible. Rape kits exist for a reason, as uncomfortable as it may be for women out there
> 
> That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, if a girl suddenly wakes up naked somewhere she doesn't know, that she'd be scared of what happened to her should be easily understandable. She should try and piece events together but plenty of people can tell that's nigh impossible after a night of drinking at times.



That's the problem, the feeling of being violated is equally strong regardless of whether it actually happened or not. And if there's no evidence one way or another, you can never be sure. Because rape doesn't always leave evidence.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2013)

Zaru said:


> But it also doesn't mean she didn't consent to have sex. Getting drunk to the point where you suffer from memory loss is usually your own fault.



But it doesn't make rape your fault. If I get black out drunk no one has any right to harm me or assault me (sexually or otherwise). Nor are they excused from prosecution if they do so. 

The trial shouldn't be about "what could she have done to prevent this" and more about "did this happen?"


----------



## Roman (Apr 29, 2013)

Zaru said:


> That's the problem, the feeling of being violated is equally strong regardless of whether it actually happened or not. And if there's no evidence one way or another, you can never be sure. Because rape doesn't always leave evidence.



Lesson to be had from this, therefore, is that it's not good to get drunk ^.^


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> But it doesn't make rape your fault. If I get black out drunk no one has any right to harm me or assault me (sexually or otherwise).


Of course. 


Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The trial shouldn't be about "what could she have done to prevent this" and more about "did this happen?"


The trial, yes.
But socially, we shouldn't condone reckless behaviour. Voluntarily surrendering your judgement (by use of alcohol or other drugs) in a non-safe environment IS reckless behaviour. 
It saddens me to see that a large part of this generation grew/grows up with a #YOLO mindset and that young people going out late at night spending tons of money on clouding their mind is accepted as perfectly normal behaviour that should come without risks.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

Socially, we also shouldn't blame the victim. But that seems to be lost on you


----------



## Mael (Apr 29, 2013)

Zaru said:


> It saddens me to see that a large part of this generation grew/grows up with a #YOLO mindset and that young people going out late at night spending tons of money on clouding their mind is accepted as perfectly normal behaviour that should come without risks.



Hold the phone.  Our parents did the exact same thing.  History calls them hippies.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Of course.
> 
> The trial, yes.
> But socially, we shouldn't condone reckless behaviour. Voluntarily surrendering your judgement (by use of alcohol or other drugs) in a non-safe environment IS reckless behaviour.
> It saddens me to see that a large part of this generation grew/grows up with a #YOLO mindset and that young people going out late at night spending tons of money on clouding their mind is accepted as perfectly normal behaviour that should come without risks.



We shouldn't let people drink and do a lot of things. Drinking and passing out isn't really harmful if you're not in a car or something.


----------



## Mansali (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Socially, we also shouldn't blame the victim. But that seems to be lost on you



THIS!

People don't even realize how much strain this puts on rape victims who then become too afraid to do anything because they think people will blame them. 

There are so many unreported rapes because of this social attitude. Also because of such attitudes, the rapists take rape lightly and show off like a bunch of assholes.

Here is a link to some scary statistics I found on the internet.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Socially, we also shouldn't blame the victim. But that seems to be lost on you


"Not encouraging/accepting reckless behaviour" = "Victim blaming" ?
If you say so brah


Mansali said:


> Here is a link to some scary statistics I found on the internet.



As soon as I saw this statistic I knew something would be fishy. After destroying Elim's UK statistics in the same way, I checked the source stated by the site again.

It always only speaks of "Rape or sexual assault". OR SEXUAL ASSAULT. I've gone over what this means for the statistic. It will be inflated by a lot.

I tried finding the statistic related to "46% unreported", but that number only pops up in relation to "serious violent crime victimization", and that includes a whole lot of other things like physical assault and whatnot.
In fact, while "rape or sexual assault" unreported incidents are indeed relatively high (65%), that's only slightly more than unreported incidents of "simple assault victimization" (56%) and "serious violent crime victimization" (46%). Most notably, it's lower than household theft (67%).
I guess we have a household theft culture then?

Summary: Fearmongering infograph uses the wrong data AND lumps ass grabbing together with actual rape to inflate the numbers.

Again, if these "rape culture" lies can be debunked so easily in 10 minutes of reading, using the same sources... why should I believe any of that crap?


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

Yes yes, how dare we try to interrupt Zaru crusade of regaining mans right to sexually assault women.



> "Not encouraging/accepting reckless behaviour" = "Victim blaming" ?



Using reckless behavior to share the blame between the victim and the rapist ? That's victim blaming.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

So I guess you support using lies and falsification to paint men as potential rapists and make women afraid of even leaving the house.

Sorry, but as long as the definition of sexual assault is as broad as it is, lumping it together with rape statistics to inflate the numbers is pure propaganda.

This is basically
"Rape statistics are falsified and inaccurate"
"B-But muh feelings! You just want to oppress women!"


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

Oh please, you're fucking downplaying the effects of sexual assault. Face it, you're the problem here. But please do go on with your crusade, I'm pretty sure there are a lot MRAs that will defend you

Also,


> Sexual assault is any involuntary sexual act in which a person is threatened, coerced, or forced to engage against their will, or any sexual touching of a person who has not consented. This includes rape (such as forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration), inappropriate touching, forced kissing, child sexual abuse, or the torture of the victim in a sexual manner


----------



## Mansali (Apr 29, 2013)

Zaru said:


> So I guess you support using lies and falsification to paint men as potential rapists and make women afraid of even leaving the house.
> 
> Sorry, but as long as the definition of sexual assault is as broad as it is, lumping it together with rape statistics to inflate the numbers is pure propaganda.
> 
> ...



So your saying that most rapes are made up by women? You make it look like false rape is the bigger thing we have to worry about. 

Because the facts say that most rapes are under reported. Victims are AFRAID of talking about it.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Oh please, you're fucking downplaying the effects of sexual assault. Face it, you're the problem here. But please do go on with your crusade, I'm pretty sure there are a lot MRAs that will defend you
> 
> Also,


I'm the problem... because I point out lies?  What crusade? You're projecting so much, you could be used for a powerpoint presentation.

You just listed the same definition that I referred to before.
According to that definition, getting a kiss by a drunk guy at a party is sexual assault. Getting your butt touched once is sexual assault. If anything downplays the effects of sexual assault, it's the widened definition of sexual assault. I didn't make that definition up, sorry.


Mansali said:


> So your saying that most rapes are made up by women?


What kind of logical leap is that?
I'm saying whoever is making those digested statistics/infographs is hoping that nobody actually reads the sources and believes that rape statistics are as high as they claim. That has nothing to do with how many rape reports are true or false


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

The definition is broad for a reason. IF you can't see it why, you're the problem. 


> According to that definition, getting a kiss by a drunk guy at a party is sexual assault. Getting your butt touched once is sexual assault.


Both things are unconsentual(?) sexual behavior, both can be traumatic for someone. Guess what else fits those parameters ?



> In fact, while "rape or sexual assault" unreported incidents are indeed relatively high (65%), that's only slightly more than unreported incidents of "simple assault victimization" (56%) and "serious violent crime victimization" (46%)



Yeah, comparing it with other incidents is downplaying things. Sorry to burst your bubble.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 29, 2013)

Freedan said:


> But what if she was raped but neither she nor the rapist remember what happened? All the girl knows is that she woke up naked in a van. Should she not feel violated and instead blame herself for whatever happened because she was drunk?


If all the woman knows is that she woke up naked in a van and if all the man knows is that he woke up naked in a van. Who is to say that the woman didn't rape the man?


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> The definition is broad for a reason. IF you can't see it why, you're the problem.
> 
> Both things are unconsentual(?) sexual behavior, both can be traumatic for someone. Guess what else fits those parameters ?
> 
> Yeah, comparing it with other incidents is downplaying things. Sorry to burst your bubble.


Well dear, why IS it so broad? Enlighten me why weaker sexual assault can't have its own category that doesn't include a heavy word like "assault".

If I feel sexually violated and traumatized because someone tapped me on the shoulder, does that mean I should count towards the sexual assault (and thus rape) statistic?

It's funny, because you're basically protecting the patriarchal mindset that women are weak snowflakes. If men can get over such things quite easily, why can't women? Are you saying they're not equal? If that's a social construct, why must it be protected? I thought you people were all over destroying social constructs 
I don't actually believe that, just pointing out the hypocrisy here.

And lol, if you think comparing it to "serious violent crime victimization" is downplaying it, then you're out of your mind. Getting stabbed in the chest and barely surviving is apparently nothing compared to having drunken sex and regretting it, in your eyes.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 29, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> We shouldn't let people drink and do a lot of things. Drinking and passing out isn't really harmful if you're not in a car or something.


Stupidity or sarcasm?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Well dear, why IS it so broad? Enlighten me why weaker sexual assault can't have its own category that doesn't include a heavy word like "assault".
> 
> If I feel sexually violated and traumatized because someone tapped me on the shoulder, does that mean I should count towards the sexual assault (and thus rape) statistic?
> 
> ...


You do realize that if you touch someone normally in the US in an unwanted way it can count as regular assault, right?


----------



## ImperatorMortis (Apr 29, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Well dear, why IS it so broad? Enlighten me why weaker sexual assault can't have its own category that doesn't include a heavy word like "assault".
> 
> If I feel sexually violated and traumatized because someone tapped me on the shoulder, does that mean I should count towards the sexual assault (and thus rape) statistic?



How the hell is tapping someone on the shoulder anyway comparable to grabbing someone's ass, crotch, tit, or whatever? 

If your ass/crotch was grabbed by a huge ugly dude wouldn't you consider that sexual assault?


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You do realize that if you touch someone normally in the US in an unwanted way it can count as regular assault, right?



And that's a travesty of the law
Your point?


ImperatorMortis said:


> How the hell is tapping someone on the shoulder anyway comparable to grabbing someone's ass, crotch, tit, or whatever?
> 
> If your ass/crotch was grabbed by a huge ugly dude wouldn't you consider that sexual assault?


No, because I don't have a weak personality
Apparently that's something adults aren't supposed to have nowadays


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

Zaru said:


> If I feel sexually violated and traumatized because someone tapped me on the shoulder, does that mean I should count towards the sexual assault (and thus rape) statistic?



Your shoulders are your genitals, or did the person tap you on your shoulder with their penis or vagina ? If not, that's not sexual assault.
Someone fondling your ass without your consent ? That is sexual assault.



> It's funny, because you're basically protecting the patriarchal mindset that women are weak snowflakes. If men can get over such things quite easily, why can't women? Are you saying they're not equal? If that's a social construct, why must it be protected? I thought you people were all over destroying social constructs
> I don't actually believe that, just pointing out the hypocrisy here.


Redcutio ad absurdum
What makes you think men get over them faster than women do ? Do prove that. Cite your multitude of stats and if you have the time, point out who has the higher incidence of being victims of such assaults.



> And lol, if you think comparing it to "serious violent crime victimization" is downplaying it, then you're out of your mind. Getting stabbed in the chest and barely surviving is apparently nothing compared to having drunken sex and regretting it, in your eyes.


And according to you, getting raped is only slightly more serious than getting punched in the face.
You also compared rape to burglary. Yeah, downplaying again. As is pointing out that 65% of sexual assaults ( I don't need to point out that it is more than half) are unreported. Also, pointing these statistics out and claiming that one of them isnt as serious, is kind of downplaying the importance of all of them.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

> No, because I don't have a weak personality



Oh fucking hell. You're a real mans man, bro.


----------



## ImperatorMortis (Apr 29, 2013)

Zaru said:


> No, because I don't have a weak personality
> Apparently that's something adults aren't supposed to have nowadays





Yeah you're obviously hopeless, and a waste of time. I can just take comfort in the fact that your opinion will never carry any weight in the real world. 

See ya.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 29, 2013)

Also I can understand where Zaru is coming from. Aged 13-15 I had a girl grabbing my ass ( thinking back to it I should have punched her in the mouth). I don't go to sleep every night thinking about how she violated me, it only comes up in my head because of the topics overall nature. 

Legally speaking acts of that nature would be considered sexual assault and should be punished accordingly, but at the same time it is misleading to lump said actions with rape.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Your shoulders are your genitals, or did the person tap you on your shoulder with their penis or vagina ? If not, that's not sexual assault.
> Someone fondling your ass without your consent ? That is sexual assault.


I didn't know lips were genitals nowadays. 

My point was that just because someone feels "traumatized" by something doesn't mean it's a severe crime. People can be extraordinarily mentally weak, that's not someone else's fault.


Elim Rawne said:


> What makes you think men get over them faster than women do ?


Leaving the house and interacting with people in the real world?
I'm not going to waste time confirming common knowledge/sense. If you're actually going to demand proof that men care less about these things, then I'm done with you. You're beyond hope.



Elim Rawne said:


> And according to you, getting raped is only slightly more serious than getting punched in the face.
> You also compared rape to burglary. Yeah, downplaying again. As is pointing out that 65% of sexual assaults ( I don't need to point out that it is more than half) are unreported. Also, pointing these statistics out and claiming that one of them isnt as serious, is kind of downplaying the importance of all of them.


Reading comprehension again... I compared report rates to show that the report rate of rape/sexual assault is nothing extraordinary, not that these things are "not serious".
If you lump together rape and butt touching then lumping together life-threatening wounds with minimal injuries is only fair.



Elim Rawne said:


> Oh fucking hell. You're a real mans man, bro.


Sorry for not having a victim mentality. I guess I should be weak and easily offended, violated and traumatized, that's better for humanity.


ImperatorMortis said:


> Yeah you're obviously hopeless, and a waste of time. I can just take comfort in the fact that your opinion will never carry any weight in the real world.
> 
> See ya.


You're not even participating here to begin with.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:
			
		

> Your shoulders are your genitals, or did the person tap you on your shoulder with their penis or vagina ? If not, that's not sexual assault.
> Someone fondling your ass without your consent ? That is sexual assault.


Actually grabbing someone by their shoulders can amount to a sexual assault.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2013)

You can sue for any touching, winning is a different story.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Gunners said:


> Actually grabbing someone by their shoulders can amount to a sexual assault.



Where did society go wrong that this is even remotely possible

At this rate you'll get sued for sexual assault if you touch a woman's boobs while dragging her away from an incoming vehicle.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 29, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You can sue for any touching, winning is a different story.


You can drink whiskey neat and I can contribute pointless sentences, just like you, to a conversation.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 29, 2013)

This thread is full of so much cancer.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 29, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Where did society go wrong that this is even remotely possible
> 
> At this rate you'll get sued for sexual assault if you touch a woman's boobs while dragging her away from an incoming vehicle.


Nah you wouldn't as there needs to be intention behind it. My memory is somewhat hazy but they look at actions that are capable of being sexual in their nature. For instance grabbing someone by the arm could be an assault or it could be sexual in nature if it was sensual I guess. 

It'd depend on the defendant's intent, the overall setting etc.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 29, 2013)

Zaru said:


> *But it also doesn't mean she didn't consent to have sex.* Getting drunk to the point where you suffer from memory loss is usually your own fault.
> 
> We can't just jail people because someone "honestly feels like a victim".
> Because then a drunk girl forcing herself onto a drunk guy and not remembering it the next day would make her a rape victim



Yes, it does.

Learn the law.

Learn humanity.

Dear God.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

Gunners said:


> Actually grabbing someone by their shoulders can amount to a sexual assault.



He said tapping not grabbing. 



> Leaving the house and interacting with people in the real world?
> I'm not going to waste time confirming common knowledge/sense. If you're actually going to demand proof that men care less about these things, then I'm done with you. You're beyond hope.



No proof and more grandstanding. Concession accepted


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2013)

Gunners said:


> You can drink whiskey neat and I can contribute pointless sentences, just like you, to a conversation.


It's a pretty damning sentence when you're all arguing as if being able to sue means that 1. someone is going to sue 2. that they can win. 

First off, sexual assault goes so under reported that I think that alone pretty much puts a nail in the coffin of this pointless wankfest you and Zaru are embarking on.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 29, 2013)

Amrun said:


> Yes, it does.
> 
> Learn the law.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should learn the law? He's correct in saying those things do not negate the possibility of consent existing as those things do not prevent a person from communicating their desire to go through with sex.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 29, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It's a pretty damning sentence when you're all arguing as if being able to sue means that 1. someone is going to sue 2. that they can win.
> 
> First off, sexual assault goes so under reported that I think that alone pretty much puts a nail in the coffin of this pointless wankfest you and Zaru are embarking on.



No it isn't a pretty damning sentence, it is a pretty pointless sentence. The point was made that lumping sexual assaults together with rape is nonsensical when they differ in severity. That point is correct due to the requirements of sexual assault being so low as inappropriate contact, whereas rape involves penetration of the woman's vagina. Do you think it would appropriate for me to say my experience of a girl grabbing my ass is equal in severity to a girl who was actually raped by someone? No. 

Also sexual assaults being under reported...... why did you mention that exactly? I'm starting to wonder if I'm following the correct conversation. The statistics that have been presented portray the image that many rapes/sexual assaults go unreported so the fact that many sexual assaults go unreported is how to say, irrelevant when discussing the severity of either offence. 



Elim Rawne said:


> He said tapping not grabbing.


Tapping someone on the shoulder could amount to sexual assault depending on the circumstances. I don't exactly disagree with it, but adopting the attitude that it could not happen is incorrect.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Amrun said:


> Yes, it does.
> 
> Learn the law.
> 
> ...


There were/are laws in many places that openly discriminate certain people, including race and gender. If you think something being law means it's the ultimate truth, then I have bad news for you.

I'll speak in your tone to get it into your head:
I'M TALKING ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR CASE THAT WAS STATED AS AN ANECDOTE BY ICHLIEBE, AND WE DON'T KNOW IF SHE WAS ACTUALLY TOO DRUNK TO CONSENT AT THE POINT WHERE SHE CONSENTED TO SEX. I REPEAT: WE DON'T KNOW, AND AUTOMATICALLY ASSUMING IT IS BULLSHIT, ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING HOW THE CASE TURNED OUT.


Elim Rawne said:


> No proof and more grandstanding. Concession accepted


You're so butthurt because I destroyed all your "statistics" that you're denying reality now in order to claim "victory" in ANYTHING and pat yourself on the back 

Men are socially conditioned to care less about these things.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> First off, sexual assault goes so under reported that I think that alone pretty much puts a nail in the coffin of this pointless wankfest you and Zaru are embarking on.


Multiple people have a different opinion from you, even if they're right: Wankfest
Multiple people have the same opinion as you, even if you're wrong: THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS WHATSOEVER


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

> You're so butthurt because I destroyed all your "statistics" that you're denying reality now in order to claim "victory" in ANYTHING and pat yourself on the back



Sure thing, champ. That's exactly what happened. Keep on raping, brotha


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2013)

Gunners said:


> No it isn't a pretty damning sentence, it is a pretty pointless sentence. The point was made that lumping sexual assaults together with rape is nonsensical when they differ in severity. That point is correct due to the requirements of sexual assault being so low as inappropriate contact, whereas rape involves penetration of the woman's vagina. Do you think it would appropriate for me to say my experience of a girl grabbing my ass is equal in severity to a girl who was actually raped by someone? No.
> 
> Also sexual assaults being under reported...... why did you mention that exactly? I'm starting to wonder if I'm following the correct conversation. The statistics that have been presented portray the image that many rapes/sexual assaults go unreported so the fact that many sexual assaults go unreported is how to say, irrelevant when discussing the severity of either offence.



So you think rape is all about the vagina? Last I checked men could be raped, or what if you forced a girl to blow you or jack you off while holding a gun to their head. 

This is why the law is worded the way it is, because it needs to fit very weird things. 

If you force to people to have sex at gun point it could be considered rape even if you don't have sex yourself.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 29, 2013)

> So you think rape is all about the vagina? Last I checked men could be raped, or what if you forced a girl to blow you or jack you off while holding a gun to their head.
> 
> This is why the law is worded the way it is, because it needs to fit very weird things.
> 
> If you force to people to have sex at gun point it could be considered rape even if you don't have sex yourself.


I know rape doesn't involve the vagina alone it was a case of me being more concerned with getting my overall point across, not the overall accuracy. The point being that forcing your penis into something is more severe that copping a feel.


----------



## Blue (Apr 29, 2013)

Amrun said:


> This thread is full of so much cancer.



It's not called cancer when someone disagrees with you, dear.


----------



## Zhariel (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Sure thing, champ. That's exactly what happened. Keep on raping, brotha



Is this what debates devolve into?


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

Blue said:


> It's not called cancer when someone disagrees with you, dear.



Factual Statement. Not relevant to the thread though


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2013)

Blue said:


> It's not called cancer when someone disagrees with you, dear.


It could be called cancer when your logic amounts to basically tattoos, weed and drinking mean you deserve to get raped.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 29, 2013)

I'm not going to browse comb through this thread but judging by the reactions of certain members ( CBKT and ER) I severely doubt that anyone claimed a girl deserves to get raped if she smokes, drinks and has tattoos. If things of nature were said then by all means quote them. 

In threads of this nature people having a disgusting, and annoying, habit of avoiding the distinction between saying ''They should have behaved more carefully'' and saying ''They got exactly what they deserved for behaving like that''.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Keep on raping, brotha


Sorry, I have more experience with helping women getting over sexual assault traumas than causing them. 


Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It could be called cancer when your logic amounts to basically tattoos, weed and drinking mean you deserve to get raped.


Where did anyone in the thread say she deserved to get raped? (Unless I missed some idiotic posts)
If anything it's about how it's not very surprising that what happened happened.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

Gunners said:


> avoiding the distinction between saying ''They should have behaved more carefully'' and saying ''They got exactly what they deserved for behaving like that''.



The former implies that the victim partially shares the blame, essentially saying the latter. 



Zaru said:


> Sorry, I have more experience with helping women getting over sexual assault traumas than causing them.



Yeah right.


----------



## Blue (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> The former implies that the victim partially shares the blame



But she does.

She didn't deserve to be raped if she was. And the rapists responsible should be prosecuted fully. But shit happens when you do really fucking stupid things, and pretending otherwise is doing a disservice to other young women considering getting blasted out of their minds, and to the truth.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> The former implies that the victim partially shares the blame, essentially saying the latter.


Guilt and blame are two different things. The guilt lies within the criminal, the blame can be shared. 

The usual analogy for that is walking into a crime-ridden slum with dollar bills sticking out of every crevice of your clothing. You have no guilt in whatever happens, but you're to blame for going there and making yourself a high-risk potential victim out of stupidity. It doesn't excuse the crime, but it explains why it happened. This common sense is applied pretty much everywhere.
The only reason why rape is such an exception to this application of common sense is because of the emotional response from the victims. Putting blame on them might hurt their already damaged psyche even more, which is why it's such a touchy subject.
But we must not deny the existence of blame due to "feelings". Because we LEARN from analyzing the reasons for a crime.


Elim Rawne said:


> Yeah right.


I'm sorry, but actual actions help women more than complaining on the internet and fearmongering with false statistics.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> The former implies that the victim partially shares the blame, essentially saying the latter.


Blame is too much of an emotive word for my taste but let us go down that route. The conclusion you reached is akin to saying someone deserved to burn alive in a fire after forgetting to turn off their stove, that conclusion is stupid as the consequences do not match the severity of their actions/omissions.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

> I'm sorry, but actual actions help women more than complaining on the internet and fearmongering with false statistics.



Lemme guess, you're also a Navy Seal with 200 confirmed kills and 5 medal of honors.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Lemme guess, you're also a Navy Seal with 200 confirmed kills and 5 medal of honors.



Is it so hard to imagine for you that someone who's not sensationalistic about a "rape epidemic" doesn't have to be a misogynistic rapist? 

Semi-related: I wonder how this video makes people like you feel.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXOtYPcC4tQ[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

> Is it so hard to imagine for you that someone who's not sensationalistic about a "rape epidemic" doesn't have to be a misogynistic rapist?



No. It is however a very logical conclusion that any person who indulges in victim blaming and downplaying of sexual assault is at the very least, a misogynist or in the worst case, rapist.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> No. It is however a very logical conclusion that any person who indulges in victim blaming and downplaying of sexual assault is at the very least, a misogynist or in the worst case, rapist.



But if sexual assault is something that can affect a man as well, how does _'downplaying'_ sexual assault make one a misogynist? Or are you assuming that only women can be victims of a sexual assault ( of course you are).


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> No. It is however a very logical conclusion that any person who indulges in victim blaming and downplaying of sexual assault is at the very least, a misogynist or in the worst case, rapist.



That logic isn't worth much when it's wrong, though 

I know, I'm raping you as we speak.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

Gunners said:


> But if sexual assault is something that can affect a man as well, how does downplaying sexual assault make one a misogynist? Or are you assuming that only women can be victims of a sexual assault ( of course you are).



Well, he did claim that men have stronger characters so of course they don't.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Well, he did claim that men have stronger characters so of course they don't.



Being less likely to be affected =/= Unable to get affected
Learn2Logic


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 29, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Being less likely to be affected =/= Unable to get affected
> Learn2Logic



You're a weakling if you think that. Weaklings don't deserve to be called men.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Weakling?  

Can anyone explain to me what's going on in Elim's head right now, there's no semblance of sense in that post


----------



## Alicia (Apr 29, 2013)

I doubt she was _pretending _to be a rape victim if she actually committed suicide. That fact alone should indicate enough how much psychological and emotional harm has been done to her.

Real shame though, she was pretty and should have tried to endure it until college. My condolences for the family's loss.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 29, 2013)

Daftvirgin said:


> I doubt she was _pretending _to be a rape victim if she actually committed suicide.



The suicide was due to bullying which was caused by the circulation of pictures/rumors after the incident which might or might not have been rape.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2013)

Daftvirgin said:


> I doubt she was _pretending _to be a rape victim if she actually committed suicide.


Of course she was, she felt so bad for being a slut is all. Plus she's that dedicated to the lie.


----------



## Alicia (Apr 29, 2013)

Oh, another army to prove me wrong. Alright alright I yield; I drop my argument.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2013)

Daftvirgin said:


> Oh, another army to prove me wrong. Alright alright I yield; I drop my argument.


I was actually being sarcastic.


----------



## Alicia (Apr 29, 2013)

Then why were you talking to me?  It should have been directed towards Zaru-man  do dem zaru-dance


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2013)

Daftvirgin said:


> Then why were you talking to me?  It should have been directed towards Zaru-man


Because you said the thing I was being sarcastic about...

You said that she wouldn't lie and then kill herself. But I was sarcastically saying of course she would. I even had a whole bit about how she did it because women are dramatic and she was so dramatic to the extreme that she killed herself because of it. Chose not to type all that out.


----------



## Alicia (Apr 29, 2013)

semantics really isn't my strongest point I guess 

but hey I've got a Lara set and you've got an Elizabeth set so


----------



## Bishop (Apr 29, 2013)

Shit happens. Fucked up.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2013)

Daftvirgin said:


> semantics really isn't my strongest point I guess
> 
> but hey I've got a Lara set and you've got an Elizabeth set so




Favorite new lesbian pairing!


----------



## Zaru (Apr 30, 2013)

Not to sound too "told ya so", but guess which information will not appear in mainstream media?





> But Postmedia sources point to huge problems with the case that made it virtually impossible to take to court, chiefly the shifting accounts from Rehtaeh herself and independent evidence, including retrieved online messages, *that supported the suggestion the sex that took place was consensual.*
> 
> Even the notorious *cell phone picture*, first sent by one of the alleged assailants and re-circulated thereafter, *shows virtually nothing that would stand up in court.*
> 
> ...


----------



## Mael (Apr 30, 2013)

Can we all agree though that shit went down that wasn't supposed to in any way, shape, or form?


----------



## Zaru (Apr 30, 2013)

Obviously. No matter what happened in that room, making the pics public and bullying her to such an extent is fucking horrible and I wish everyone involved will pay the karma price for that someday.


----------



## Mansali (Apr 30, 2013)

Lets say that the court finds out that it was the case (what was said according to that news article). Does that still make your horrible argument right?

Told you so? You are telling us that you knew all along that she was making it up? 

What does that mean. It still doesn't change that fact that victim blaming is wrong.


----------



## Alicia (Apr 30, 2013)

This is why I don't drink, or go to parties....or have any friends :foreveralone


----------



## Zaru (Apr 30, 2013)

Mansali said:


> Lets say that the court finds out that it was the case (what was said according to that new article). Does that still make your horrible argument right?
> 
> Told you so?
> 
> What does that mean. It still doesn't change that fact that victim blaming is wrong.



Because a lot of people on the internet jumped onto the chance to call it a rape as if there was no room for doubt and tried to start a witch hunt for those guys. And I said we can't know whether it was a rape, and that there's room to doubt it.
And some people in this thread were outraged over the mere idea that it wasn't a 100% confirmed rape case.

Rationality seems to have won out in the end


----------



## Mansali (Apr 30, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Because a lot of people on the internet jumped onto the chance to call it a rape as if there was no room for doubt and tried to start a witch hunt for those guys. And I said we can't know whether it was a rape, and that there's room to doubt it.
> And some people in this thread were outraged over the mere idea that it wasn't a 100% confirmed rape case.
> 
> Rationality seems to have won out in the end



That wasn't even the reason why people were arguing against you in the first place. You just changed the context of the whole thread and declared victory. 

It was the whole 'victim' blaming and how she was at fault etc that was the main topic of discussion. 

And this article does not mean she wasn't raped. The courts have to look at everything.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 30, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Because a lot of people on the internet jumped onto the chance to call it a rape as if there was no room for doubt and tried to start a witch hunt for those guys. And I said we can't know whether it was a rape, and that there's room to doubt it.
> And some people in this thread were outraged over the mere idea that it wasn't a 100% confirmed rape case.
> 
> Rationality seems to have won out in the end



Before or after you started victim blaming ?



> But socially, we shouldn't condone reckless behaviour. Voluntarily surrendering your judgement (by use of alcohol or other drugs) in a non-safe environment IS reckless behaviour.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 30, 2013)

Holy shit what is wrong with you people
Like how do you even function in daily life

It's like you think women are incapable of having personal responsibility for anything they do

"Don't do stupid shit"
"WAH WAH VICTIM BLAMING YOU EVIL RAPIST"

This girl didn't just give consent, it appears *she refused to stop giving it*
Regret isn't rape


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 30, 2013)

Stop being such a drama queen. You sound like a feminist.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 30, 2013)

I just almost spit applesauce all over my screen
Feminist, that's a new one


----------



## Sanity Check (Apr 30, 2013)

Reading this thread is like living in india mingling with rapists everyday on the bus.  :WOW


----------



## Alicia (Apr 30, 2013)

But she was a victim of severe bullying nonetheless, Zaru.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 30, 2013)

Daftvirgin said:


> But she was a victim of severe bullying nonetheless, Zaru.



And that's very tragic/unfair, never said anything different.


----------



## Mansali (Apr 30, 2013)

Zaru seems pretty insecure about something. 

I am a guy and I see the problems that women face when trying to report a rape. 

Also its not just women but also men because society thinks that men can never be raped.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 30, 2013)

I think people forget too many aspects of their childhood. 

*Someone gets drunk and sings a love song to a girl...... People will tease him over it. 

*Someone gets drunk and flashes his cock in an attempt to woo someone...... People will tease him over it. 

*Someone gets drunk and pukes all over the place...... People will tease him over it. 

*Some girl gets drunk and behaves like a slut....... People tease her over it, she kills herself ( sincerely find that tragic) and people cry for some form of revolution. 

The response isn't exactly nice but it is a good lesson as to why people shouldn't get drunk and behave like idiots thinking it will make them hip/cool. She had a friend who tried to keep her on the straight and narrow. I remember being in that situation only I used physical violence to stop my friend from making a prat of himself, good times.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 30, 2013)

I wouldn't exactly call what happened "teasing"



Mansali said:


> Zaru seems pretty insecure about something.


And what might that be

I'll give you this free personal attack since I did one as well


----------



## Gunners (Apr 30, 2013)

Experiences shape our perceptions, at my secondary school things of that nature were common nature. Upon consideration those things do go passed teasing but it doesn't change my overall point that people shouldn't have like such idiots on a night out.


----------



## Mansali (Apr 30, 2013)

Zaru said:


> I wouldn't exactly call what happened "teasing"
> 
> 
> And what might that be
> ...



What personal attack did you do on me? 

I wasn't exactly trying to attack you personally. But from what I hear from you, your saying that women have too much power when it comes to rape accusation. They can just accuse someone of rape and then everyone believes them and the reputation of the suspect is usually tarnished by society.

But I disagree with that. Because from what I have seen, a lot of times women are too afraid of coming out, society blames them, and a lot of times the rapists get away with it.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 30, 2013)

Mansali said:


> What personal attack did you do on me?
> 
> I wasn't exactly trying to attack you personally. But from what I hear from you, your saying that women have too much power when it comes to rape accusation. They can just accuse someone of rape and then everyone believes them and the reputation of the suspect is usually tarnished by society.



Is the claim incorrect? If you're to look at how rape statistics are reported people don't say ''80% women falsely accused men of rape'' they say ''Only 20% of rapes result in a successful conviction''.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 30, 2013)

Mansali said:


> What personal attack did you do on me?
> 
> I wasn't exactly trying to attack you personally. But from what I hear from you, your saying that women have too much power when it comes to rape accusation. They can just accuse someone of rape and then everyone believes them and the reputation of the suspect is usually tarnished by society.
> 
> But I disagree with that.



The whole "what is wrong with you people" post

And how is pointing out that a single rape accusation can ruin a guy's life "insecurity"

The more we automatically assume that a girl was raped and the man is a perpetrator, the more power women get to destroy men's lives at a whim.
The less we automatically assume that a girl was raped and the man is a perpetrator, the worse rape victims will have it to get justice.

It's a situation where we can't really win by changing our assumptions. The solution has to start somewhere else.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 30, 2013)

Gunners said:


> Is the claim incorrect? If you're to look at how rape statistics are reported people don't say ''80% women falsely accused men of rape'' they say ''Only 20% of rapes result in a successful conviction''.



The latter is just stating a fact, while the former is conjecture.


----------



## Mansali (Apr 30, 2013)

Gunners said:


> Is the claim incorrect? If you're to look at how rape statistics are reported people don't say ''80% women falsely accused men of rape'' they say ''Only 20% of rapes result in a successful conviction''.



Im just pointing out what I think he is trying to say. 

I also showed him a similar statistic but then it turned into an argument about what 'sexual assault' exactly is.


----------



## Mansali (Apr 30, 2013)

Zaru said:


> The whole "what is wrong with you people" post
> 
> And how is pointing out that a single rape accusation can ruin a guy's life "insecurity"
> 
> ...



You can argue that the justice system needs to do a better job of protecting all parties (including the ones being accused of rape). 

There is a reason why they hid the names of the boys involved.


----------



## santanico (Apr 30, 2013)

Yes, as you people have said already, there are cases when guys are accused of rape when there was no rape, it's horrible, and the people who falsely accuse should be punished big fucking time. But this case isn't that, she was raped and didn't seek professional help to deal with this horrible thing that happened to her.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 30, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> The latter is just stating a fact, while the former is conjecture.


By what logic?
While the former is indeed a far-stretching, unrealistic claim... the latter assumes that every rape brought to the justice system is an actual rape. That's conjecture too, even if the difference to the truth is a lot smaller.


----------



## santanico (Apr 30, 2013)

Gunners said:


> Is the claim incorrect? If you're to look at how rape statistics are reported people don't say ''80% women falsely accused men of rape'' they say ''Only 20% of rapes result in a successful conviction''.


you got a link to back that up?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 30, 2013)

starr said:


> Yes, as you people have said already, there are cases when guys are accused of rape when there was no rape, it's horrible, and the people who falsely accuse should be punished big fucking time. But this case isn't that, *she was raped* and didn't seek professional help to deal with this horrible thing that happened to her.



How do you know that? Do you have some divine insight into this case that nobody else seems to possess?


----------



## Elim Rawne (Apr 30, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> How do you know that? Do you have some divine insight into this case that nobody else seems to possess?



She was 15 and drunk ?


----------



## Sanity Check (Apr 30, 2013)

Gunners said:


> they say ''Only 20% of rapes result in a successful conviction''.



The actual conviction rate is lower than that.

Its 3% to 7%, in the united states and uk, IIRC.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 30, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> She was 15 and drunk ?



And the guys who had sex with her weren't?


----------



## B Rabbit (Apr 30, 2013)

I'm not going to look at this as pure Black and White. 

However I really want to know if the boys are going to get their justice.


----------



## Cygnus45 (May 1, 2013)

Eminem said:


> I'm not going to look at this as pure Black and White.
> 
> However I really want to know if the boys are going to get their justice.



Don't hold your breath.

Pretty much everyone has either said "she was a slut" or "she was _most likely_ a slut". In a country like America even most women wouldn't take her side, which is sad.

Flip it around: If a guy was pinned down and tied up and forced to give blowjobs to a bunch of women, every judge in America would laugh and dismiss the case, then go to the bar to laugh some more because they got off work early.

Women need to stop hating each other and get along. The rest of the world is suffering because of their insecurity and lack of unity.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 1, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> And the guys who had sex with her weren't?


Know what happens when I get drunk? I get louder. So, being drunk is an excuse to rape? Why is that? I mean being drunk doesn't make you do things, it just lowers you inhibitions. Means you were already a rapist, you just needed that little blocker removed.


----------



## Gunners (May 1, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Know what happens when I get drunk? I get louder. So, being drunk is an excuse to rape? Why is that? I mean being drunk doesn't make you do things, it just lowers you inhibitions. Means you were already a rapist, you just needed that little blocker removed.



I'm starting to believe you are an idiot. His point was as clear as day and it wasn't ''Getting drunk is an excuse to rape people''.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 1, 2013)

Gunners said:


> I'm starting to believe you are an idiot. His point was as clear as day and it wasn't ''Getting drunk is an excuse to rape people''.


His point was bullshit. Being drunk is okay if you're doing harmless things like falling asleep or yelling. 

But when you're driving around or raping people there's an issue. Especially with the latter, that's just something wrong with you. 

Being drunk isn't an excuse. If someone only fucks kids when they're drunk do we just give him a pass because well he was drinking?


----------



## Gunners (May 1, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> His point was bullshit. Being drunk is okay if you're doing harmless things like falling asleep or yelling.
> 
> But when you're driving around or raping people there's an issue. Especially with the latter, that's just something wrong with you.
> 
> Being drunk isn't an excuse. If someone only fucks kids when they're drunk do we just give him a pass because well he was drinking?



After I told you that he wasn't saying ''alcohol is an excuse for getting drunk'' you still respond as though that was his overall point. What is wrong with you. Do you have a hard time understanding things, or are you intentionally interpreting what he said in an incorrect manner to give yourself a leg to stand on. 

Go back and read his post until you understand it.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 1, 2013)

Gunners said:


> After I told you that he wasn't saying ''alcohol  is an excuse for getting drunk'' you still respond as though that was  his overall point. What is wrong with you. Do you have a hard time  understanding things, or are you intentionally interpreting what he said  in an incorrect manner to give yourself a leg to stand on.
> 
> Go back and read his post until you understand it.



Okay, I'll bite. 



starr said:


> Yes, as you people have said already, there are cases when guys are accused of rape when there was no rape, it's horrible, and the people who falsely accuse should be punished big fucking time. *But this case isn't that, she was raped and didn't seek professional help to deal with this horrible thing that happened to her.*





Saufsoldat said:


> How do you know that? Do you have some divine insight into this case that nobody else seems to possess?





Elim Rawne said:


> She was 15 and drunk ?





Saufsoldat said:


> And the guys who had sex with her weren't?



He implies that the guys couldn't have raped her because they were drunk, which reads to me like being drunk is an excuse to do something and then feign ignorance to what it means. 

These are the exact quotes as they happened, so should I take my dick out of your mouth now? Will you shut up on your own?


----------



## Mael (May 1, 2013)

Intoxication or not...there's a phrase that goes with this:
"_Ignorantia juris non excusat_" - "Ignorance of the law excuses no one."

/CriminalLawClass

I frankly don't get how being drunk is removing liability for any of this behavior and especially the dumbfuckery of taking photos of all of this.  I know teenagers are not only fucking stupid by and large, but also sociopathic.  The alcohol merely exacerbated this, not excused anything...and if she was feeling the pain of forced penetration and with photographic evidence of this rape then I'm going to lean on the side she was violated no matter what she may have sounded like.  Everyone wants to act like they're ignorant of the law because they were drunk, but no...there's no excuse for it.

I've served some years as a rape victim advocate.  It's not the most glorious job and it certainly sucks seeing as all I can do is really just provide references for counseling, link cases to legal authorities, and attend seminars once in a while.  I've also run across falsified reports as well.  See the circumstances from this story and how blacked out she was, this is of no surprise that a lot of people think that she was complicit even if the photos might want to say otherwise.

And on a side note, we need to be cracking down on teens.  They're getting dumber by the week.


----------



## Gunners (May 1, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Okay, I'll bite.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He did not imply that the guys could not have raped her because they were drunk. That's the conclusion you reached because you are an idiot. His point was that her being drunk and 15 does not prove a rape took place, as by the same token the boys could argue she sexually abused them ( as they were of the same age and drunk).


----------



## Mael (May 1, 2013)

Gunners said:


> He did not imply that the guys could not have raped her because they were drunk. That's the conclusion you reached because you are an idiot. His point was that her being drunk and 15 does not prove a rape took place, as by the same token the boys could argue she sexually abused them ( as they were of the same age and drunk).



What I'd like to see is more analysis from the photos taken since of course teenagers are fucking stupid and do these sorts of things much akin to bored soldiers from Bumblefuck, West Virginia. in a military detainee facility.

Same intelligence levels basically.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 1, 2013)

Gunners said:


> He did not imply that the guys could not have raped her because they were drunk. That's the conclusion you reached because you are an idiot. His point was that her being drunk and 15 does not prove a rape took place, as by the same token the boys could argue she sexually abused them ( as they were of the same age and drunk).


Oddly enough he didn't say any of that. He simply said they were drunk too. As if being drunk and blacking out is the same as being drunk and fucking someone. You're the one reaching now because you've realized that there was no reason for him to even bring that up and it opened him up to looking stupid. Maybe you should stick to defending your own backwards, sexist points.


----------



## Gunners (May 1, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Oddly enough he didn't say any of that. He simple said they were drunk too. As if being drunk and passing out is the same as being drunk and fucking someone. You're the one reaching now because you've realized that there was no reason for him to even bring that up and it opened him up to looking stupid. Maybe you should stick to defending your own backwards, sexist points.



Are you serious that thick?

1) His initial response was ''What insight do you have that she was raped''. 
That sets the context of the conversation on what is proof of of a rape. 

2) ER responded with ''She was drunk and 15''.
That presents the argument that her being drunk and 15 is sufficient proof that a rape took place. 

3) S response was that 'the boys were drunk and 15'. 
That response indicated why it is fallacious to assume a rape took place based on her being 15 and drunk. 

I'm not reaching, you simply narrow minded and incapable of following a conversation.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 1, 2013)

Gunners said:


> Are you serious that thick?
> 
> 1) His initial response was ''What insight do you have that she was raped''.
> That sets the context of the conversation on what is proof of of a rape.
> ...



Doesn't look that way to me. Oddly enough I don't disagree with you on a lot. But it looks like people around here are all too ready to blame victims in cases of rape and defend deplorable human beings.


----------



## Cygnus45 (May 1, 2013)

When I'm + repping both Carboard tube-nuts

And agreeing with _*Mael*_ of all people in the same thread.

You can tell this "Gunners" fellow is an idiot. 

Stop trying to get under people's skin and stay on fucking topic. Teens shouldn't be drinking and they should be taught up safe sex and working on RELATIONSHIPS instead of jumping from point A to point Z and having their minds in the gutter 24/7.


----------



## Gunners (May 1, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Doesn't look that way to me. Oddly enough I don't disagree with you on a lot. But it looks like people around here are all too ready to blame victims in cases of rape and defend deplorable human beings.


It doesn't look that way to you because.............

Anyway why shouldn't deplorable human beings be defended? Someone could be a deplorable human being, but if they are(/may) not guilty of the crime they have been accused of they should be defended. You don't just say ''Well he behaved despicably, and the complainant seems hurt/innocent, so I have no problem finding that he's guilty of rape, murder, arson etc.''



Cygnus45 said:


> When I'm + repping both Carboard tube-nuts
> 
> And agreeing with _*Mael*_ of all people in the same thread.
> 
> ...


Your post is off topic


----------

