# Hebi Sasuke Vs Kakashi



## Trojan (Oct 6, 2015)

Location: Kakashi & Co Vs Kakuzu and Hidan
Knowledge: None besides the basic stuff.
Distance: 25m
Mindset: IC
restrictions: Everything goes

Note: this is Kakashi who fought Kakuzu.


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## Crow (Oct 6, 2015)

I'd give this to Kakashi because of experience, and Sasuke's lack of the Mangekyo. Kakashi can take this if he counters Sasuke's Lightning based moves with his own and avoid him. Kakashi had Kamui when he faught against Kazuku right? He might be able to hit sauce with it but I doubt it. Even if he doesn't he would win though...


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## Trojan (Oct 6, 2015)

> Kakashi had Kamui when he faught against Kazuku right?



Yes, he did.


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## Icegaze (Oct 6, 2015)

Kakashi uses kamui he wins 
He doesn't he looses


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## Crow (Oct 6, 2015)

*Kakashi doesn't need Kamui*



Icegaze said:


> Kakashi uses kamui he wins
> He doesn't he looses



He doesn't need Kamui
Kakashi will trump Sasuke off pure experience and better Raiton techs.
I'm just saying if Kakashi doesn't use Kamui it will be harder.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 6, 2015)

At that point?
Sasuke high-difficuly.


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## Mercurial (Oct 6, 2015)

Kakashi low diffs with Mangekyo.

Mid/high diffs without resorting to it (smarter, more skilled, better reflexes, speed and taijutsu). Sasuke has just more chakra thanks to the Juin, but he was actually outlasted by Itachi, of all people, who wasn't even trying to kill him.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 6, 2015)

Sasuke high-diff like 7-8/10. Kamui wasn't as reliable back then and Sasuke can counter majority of Kakashi's arsenal while having solid stamina advantage.



Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi low diffs with Mangekyo.
> 
> Mid/high diffs without resorting to it (smarter, more skilled,* better reflexes, speed* and taijutsu). Sasuke has just more chakra thanks to the Juin, but he was actually outlasted by Itachi, of all people, who wasn't even trying to kill him.


Lol


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## Crow (Oct 6, 2015)

NO WAY DEER LORD.
Kakashi's feats are about the same as his but Kakashi has a larger range of all jutsu's then Sasuke does. 
Sasuke's moves at this point were based off Raiton moves, and Kakashi had some of those and doton, katon, and suition moves to compete with. The only thing that Kakashi is outclassed in this is Sharingan Stanima, and that is why he would use Kamui sparingly so he wouldn't die.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 6, 2015)

Kakashi had Kamui but he don't use it until the very end and when he is really pressured by the ennemy , otherwise he is Just First Part Kakashi with higher speed , stamina and Taijutsu .

Sasuke showed us his incredible against Yamato and the rest of Team 7 , very good analytic skills against Deidara , plus he is also skilled in Kenjutsu plus he has good chakra quantity .

I would say without CS and MS , Sasuke is a bit stronger because he has more chakra .

Sasuke with CS definitly stomps 3TS Kakashi , all his stats are considerably raised in Kubiwa mode but the copy ninja has the Mangekyu , he will defintly use it at the very last moment just like his fight against Tendo , at the same time Sasuke can use Kawarimi to evade Kamui at the very last moment like he did when he was blitzed by Itachi's Amaterasu . The Uchiha wins more than he loses .

It would be like that :
Start of Part2 Sasuke<Immortal Arc Kakashi<Hebi Sasuke .

Start of Part2 Sasuke have nothing to do against Kamui , he can't use Kawarimi , so he has really less chances against that Kakashi version .


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 6, 2015)

Sasuke wins more times than not.

Base sasuke can probably outspeed kakashi and CS version certainly can. Ssasuke elements and sharingan genjutsu were at a higher level at that point too. Kamui at that point was something like ino and shikamaru signature jutsu that they couldn't be used without the target being distracted or stationary.

Sasuke is never like that and he could also troll amaterasu so kamui can be potentially trolled(it didn't have it's near instant war arc speed back then).


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## Crow (Oct 6, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Sasuke wins more times than not.
> 
> Sasuke is never like that and he could also troll amaterasu so kamui can be potentially trolled(it didn't have it's near instant war arc speed back then).



Sasuke didn't have the Mangekyo then, he has it when he's taka not hebi


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 6, 2015)

I did not say hebi sasuke had amaterasu....


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## Crow (Oct 6, 2015)

Well why did you bring it up?


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## Arles Celes (Oct 6, 2015)

Kakakshi is smarter and a better strategist. However he got low chakra deserves and at that time two uses of Kamui could send him to an hospital.

In taijutsu they might be even or Kakashi is somewhat better. With CS boost Sasuke can fight him on equal ground I think.

In ninjutsu excluding Kamui I think they are equal power-wise though Kakashi got more jutsus at his disposal making him more versatile. Sasuke got Kirin however, but Kakashi could probably one shoot him with Kamui if Sasuke focused on preparing said jutsu unless Sasuke used Manda to keep Kakashi busy enough.

In genjutsu they would probably stare each other to death LOL. Really, they would probably discard such a strategy with both breaking free from genjutsu thanks to their eyes.

So either Kakashi manages to land a kamui on Sasuke or he loses eventually due to having lower chakra reserves. I dunno how great was Kakashi with Kamui at that time though as he only seemed to fully mastery it by the time of the 4rth War IMO. And Sasuke with his speed is hard to hit unless one got great accuracy.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 6, 2015)

Kakashi used Kamui to warp an exploding Deidara clone that Gai, Lee & Kakashi could not avoid. The AoE was already expanding when he warped it, he warped the entire explosion and the clone, after using a Kamui initially on Deidara's arm.  

[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

Gai had access to 8th Gate, Lee had access to 5th-6th Gate, and Kakashi was fast in his own right. 

There's no possible way Hebi Sasuke is avoiding a Kamui that releases that quickly and sucks that much matter in that quickly.


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## Mercurial (Oct 6, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Lol



Lol to you.

Part 1 Kakashi (who is under even early Part II Kakashi in everything) could see, understand and counter Itachi's clone feints and jutsu (1)(2). Hebi Sasuke couldn't see Itachi cloning himself even while launching a shit ton of shuriken in the meantime (3).


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## Mercurial (Oct 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Kakashi used Kamui to warp an exploding Deidara clone that Gai, Lee & Kakashi could not avoid. The AoE was already expanding when he warped it, he warped the entire explosion and the clone, after using a Kamui initially on Deidara's arm.
> 
> [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]
> 
> ...



Don't bring manga feats. That's incorrect!


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## hbcaptain (Oct 6, 2015)

It was just Itachi's clone , plus Sasuke also has seen and countered Itachi's clone , handseals are just Jutsu's execution speed  nothing more . For exemple , Itachi can't see Minato's FTG activation , that doesn"t mean that he can't do anything about it .

Plus Part1 Kakashi couldn't see Itachi's handseals :


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## Kurak (Oct 6, 2015)

Hebi Sasuke.
Except for Kamui Kakashi has nothing but even if oral rebith = fix. Kakashi to use Kamui effectively must aim slow target or big one and Sasuke is rather fast ... faster than Kakashi for sure.


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## Bonly (Oct 6, 2015)

This would be a good fight but I'd side with Hebi Sasuke here. Kakashi isn't fast to the point where Sasuke wouldn't be able to react to his speed, thanks to his Sharingan and CS which Sasuke also noted that when first used his 3 tomes Sharingan that "His body is the same as when he used the curse seal".

Sasuke's defense is a problem for Kakashi as well. VoTE Sasuke got pulled and punched hard by KN1 Naruto and was laughing that he wasn't hurt which can/should be scaled due to his increase in power and what not so Sasuke should be able to take quite a bit of hits from Kakashi taijutsu wise. We also have Sasuke stepping on Deidara's landmines and come out pretty much unharmed with CS2 and then taking on this explosion head on with only losing a wing while getting right back up and started fighting normally. Sasuke also has snakes as well he can use for defense, he was able to take Deidara's surprise attack with no damage thanks to using a snake as a meat shield and to add to it Sasuke has a healing factor thanks to Orochi. Nothing in Kakashi's base arsenal is actually gonna get through Sasuke's defense bar Raikiri.

All of Sasuke's Raitons should be near most of Kakashi Raitons level(bar Kirin which is better then all of Kakashi's Raiton jutsu) and with the CS lvl 1+2 boosting his jutsu power he should be able over power Kakashi's if they clash. Sasuke can use snakes for defense(as showed above) and can use to them to move around better along with being able to fly/glide giving him better mobility and he can summon them pretty fast and those are just the smaller snakes, dear lord there's also Manda which would be a pain for Kakashi to deal with if Summoned as well. They should be close in CQC skills and Hebi Sasuke is easily one of(if not) the smartest version of Sasuke so he'd likely wouldn't be making many mistakes and what not. 

Kakashi main hope at winning is if he managed to come up with a good plan and landed a fatal blow on Sasuke, not sure what the plan would be but I'm sure Kakashi of all people could come up with one and then there's Kamui which can tip the scales but we're not sure how good he is with it since he had a piss poor time against Deidara yet later on he could suck up Deidara's clone explosion so yeah who knows. With them being quite close and Sasuke managing to close the gap thanks to his CS,snakes, healing factor and general skills, this would be a good match that either could take though I'd slightly side with Sasuke here.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 6, 2015)

Sasuke was always superior to Kakashi after part 2 hit, outside of a few factors. This is just IMO. Kamui and more battle experience.

Also this isn't even factoring in CS2.


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## Kai (Oct 6, 2015)

Naruto who just learned an 'incomplete' version of FRS was "on par or perhaps stronger" than Kakashi who fought Kakuzu. Straight from the horse's mouth.

Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru after this. He's clearly on another level to Kakashi.


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## Trojan (Oct 6, 2015)

Kai said:


> Naruto who just learned an 'incomplete' version of FRS was "on par or perhaps stronger" than Kakashi who fought Kakuzu. Straight from the horse's mouth.



What does that have to do with anything tho? 
it was never mentioned or stated that Narudo is weaker than Sasuke. 



> Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru after this. He's clearly on another level to Kakashi.


Depending on Sasuke's level, Oro could take over when Sasuke gets weaker. It's not necessarily the best option
especially with the fact that Oro is not interested in Kakashi anyway..


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 6, 2015)

Kakashi copies all of Sasuke's raiton variants and beats him up by being more skilled and more experienced.  He'll probably use them better than Sasuke too.  Genjutsu is equal, and katons are irrelevant and lose to suitons.  The only thing he's got going for him is juin, and He Who Shall Not Be Summoned.


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## Trojan (Oct 6, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kakashi copies all of Sasuke's raiton variants and beats him up by being more skilled and more experienced.  He'll probably use them better than Sasuke too.  Genjutsu is equal, and katons are irrelevant and lose to suitons.  The only thing he's got going for him is juin, and He Who Shall Not Be Summoned.



Sasuke's variants of Chidori are weaker than the original one anyway. 
Kakashi's Raikiri is already stronger than any jutsu Sasuke has besides *possibly* Kirin only.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 6, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kakashi copies all of Sasuke's raiton variants and beats him up by being more skilled and more experienced.



At that point in the manga, or at any point before, there was nothing showing Kakashi was more skilled or experienced at shape manipulating raitons than Hebi Sasuke.​


Kai said:


> Naruto who just learned an 'incomplete' version of FRS was "on par or perhaps stronger" than Kakashi who fought Kakuzu. Straight from the horse's mouth. Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru after this. He's clearly on another level to Kakashi.



He was also on another level before. . Orochimaru at no time in the manga, especially before this point, considered  as impressive as he considered Sasuke there.​


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## Ghoztly (Oct 6, 2015)

The kakashi favoritism is strong. Not saying he's being wanked or anything. And I will be honest in saying he is my favorite character,

With that out of the way.

Who are you guys kidding, sure, straight up Raikiri>Chidori but lets be real, Sasuke took Chidori and the lightning element places Kakashi has never been, he's just as fast at this point if not faster, and has access to CS2 and he absorbed Orochimaru.

Are you for real? Sure Kakashi is smarter and has edge in experience by far, but Sasuke is all around more talented. Has a better sharingan (BASE, before I get crucified let me clarify I mean BASE.) And I haven't seen Kakashi use any real adanced genjutsu at all, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 6, 2015)

I wouldn't even say Kakashi is smarter than Hebi Sasuke. Hebi Sasuke was extremely smart in his battles, and was shown to be just as analytical if not moreso than Kakashi against Akatsuki. 

"Experience" is just a very weak non-factor people bring up to prop older, weaker ninja up closer to the level of their opponent. In practice, it doesn't affect ninja at Jonin competency and never has.​


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## Trojan (Oct 6, 2015)

> [=Ghoztly;54479378]
> 
> Who are you guys kidding, sure, straight up Raikiri>Chidori but lets be real, *Sasuke took Chidori and the lightning element places Kakashi has never been*, he's just as fast at this point if not faster, and has access to CS2 and he absorbed Orochimaru.


Like what? 


> Are you for real? Sure Kakashi is smarter and has edge in experience by far, but Sasuke is all around more talented. Has a better sharingan (BASE, before I get crucified let me clarify I mean BASE.) And *I haven't seen Kakashi use any real adanced genjutsu at all, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.*



Depending on what you mean by "advanced"
Kakashi was showing (altho much later on) to be able to place 2 of the ANBU roots under a genjutsu
at the same time. He was also able to fight on par with Obito by using Genjutsu, and they pretty much
canceled each other out. 



> I wouldn't even say Kakashi is smarter than Hebi Sasuke. Hebi Sasuke was extremely smart in battle. "Experience" is just a very weak non-factor people bring up. Orochimaru had infinitely more experience before he lost to 11-year-old Itachi's base genjutsu. That Jonin 2-tomoe Obito paneled had infinitely more experience. Experience really doesn't make a difference.



Itachi was around 15 actually. 
but, yeah, I agree with your point tho.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Like what?
> 
> 
> Depending on what you mean by "advanced"
> ...



Sasuke trolled Deidara and Orochimaru with his eyes, lets be real, please.

Also, he learned many different variants of the Chidori, emitting it, turning it into projectiles, infusing it to his sword, again, lets be real. Kakashi has a few raiton techniques, sure, but he's still sticking with the same old Raikiri. Not saying he wasn't capable of doing so, he probably is, but Sasuke was way more versatile with it.


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## Trojan (Oct 6, 2015)

> [=Ghoztly;54479430]Sasuke trolled Deidara and Orochimaru with his eyes, lets be real, please.


So? Sai trolled Deidara MUCH easier than Sasuke ever did. 

Oro was sick, in his bed, and his arms are sealed. Nothing impressive at attacking an unaware sick person, who cannot even use his power. 


> Also, he learned many different variants of the Chidori, emitting it, turning it into projectiles, infusing it to his sword, again, lets be real.


All of which are weaker than the original (besides Kirin). 
Not as of Kakashi does not have some of his own anyway...  



> Kakashi has a few raiton techniques, sure, but he's still sticking with the same old Raikiri.


Because it's stronger. When was the last time you saw Sasuke using those variants he created exactly? In like forever? He barely used each of them for 1 time, and then was sticking to the Chidori. What's the different between him and Kakashi then? 



> Not saying he wasn't capable of doing so, he probably is, but Sasuke was way more versatile with it.



Not really. 
Kakashi
1- Raikiri
2- chidori
3- the Chidori clone
4- Chidori chain
5- the wolf chidori

Sasuke
1- Chidori
2- the spear
3- Chidori nagashi
4- Chidori senpon 
5- Kirin

(not sure of the names, I hope you know what jutsu I am talking about tho )


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 6, 2015)

Kai said:


> Naruto who just learned an 'incomplete' version of FRS was "on par or perhaps stronger" than Kakashi who fought Kakuzu. Straight from the horse's mouth.
> 
> Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru after this. He's clearly on another level to Kakashi.


Bro, Kakashi would warp Naruto just as easily.

Overall, sure, Naruto was on par with him because he had boss summons & a bunshin army which would be most useful on a battlefield with armies exchanging. 

Individually, no. Kakashi would kill him 1 on 1 with Kamui.



> The kakashi favoritism is strong. Not saying he's being wanked or anything. And I will be honest in saying he is my favorite character,
> 
> With that out of the way.
> 
> ...


Kakashi can open high-speed dimensional warp holes from afar. 

More talented? Nah man. It doesn't get more talented than that. 

Senjutsu enhanced elemental techniques are fodder to the Authority of the Gods (神威, Kamui).


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## Ghoztly (Oct 6, 2015)

Just saying he doesn't have what it takes to beat Sasuke, unless he catches him with the Kamui. It was implied that he considered Naruto stronger than him even in the wind arc, and Sasuke was even more so shortly after. 

I honestly don't think he has the reserves to get it done. Sasuke's Sharingan is better. He doesn't have a speed advantage, either. And Sasuke can use his sharingan far more effectively, longer, and can also activate the CS2 if he needs it.

Kakashi really needs to pull something outta his ass to win this. Even just one clone severely depletes his chakra. Sasuke won't be getting hit with a Raikri either.

LIterally has to Kamui, that's all he has over Sasuke. And lol if people think he can just spam it, especially at that point in the manga.

It's either he Kamui's or Sasuke shits on him, in EVERY way.

And this is coming from a Kakashi fan.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 6, 2015)

He's not stronger than him in Wind Arc, at most you can argue they are around the same level.

Kakashi is faster, more intelligent, and more skilled than Naruto, and he has a 1-panel technique. 

Naruto, on the other hand, has superior stamina, numbers and muscle (Frogs, Wind Rasenshuriken). 

1 on 1, he defeats him with this 1-panel technique, just as he defeats Hebi Sasuke.

On a battlefield against masses of marginally decent shinobi, Kakashi is killed faster than Naruto and Hebi Sasuke.

There are warrior types (Jiraiya, Naruto, Minato), and there are assassin types (Itachi, Kakashi, Danzo).


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## Ghoztly (Oct 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He's not stronger than him in Wind Arc, at most you can argue they are around the same level.
> 
> Kakashi is faster, more intelligent, and more skilled than Naruto, and he has a 1-panel technique.
> 
> ...



I guess I can accept this reasoning, if he really commits to Kamui, and knows it will hit Sasuke, of course he would win, but he better make DAMN sure it hits.

Do you see Kakashi being faster than Sasuke entirely though? I am not so sure.


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## Kor (Oct 6, 2015)

Sasukw high diff, bordering on extreme difficulty depending if Kakashi fails with Kamui.

Kakashi is the more seasoned fighter, skilled in all three ninja  arts and is all in all a older Sasuke looking at his base feats and overall abilities.

But with CS2 and the White Snake powers, I'd hand this over to Sasuke if their mindset is IC. Kamuu early on in Part-II was Kakashi's last resort. Although his debut performance against an already exhausted Team Yamato doesn't say much for his abilites. Wasn't until Deidara he actually had a good showing.

Stating Naruto to be stronger then Kakashi means almost nothing when we saw nearly no impressive display from him until Pain Arc. "Oh, he can somewhat use Kurama's chakra against Orochimaru", him being forced to resort to that right off the bat and lose his cool isn't that great.

"He created a forbidden S-rank jutsu!" That was useless until Pain Arc because overusing it could destroy his career.

Kakashi can counter Sasuke's Fire with Earth or Water and counter most of his Lightning barring Kirin. Kakashi is in his physical prime in part II after re sharpening his skills.

He's got some minor genjutsu and bunshin feats, if Sasuke came in close after a bout of genjutsu he could find himself face to face with a Lightning Clone with how slippery Kakashi is.

It won't a simple 'Kamui GG' or 'Sasuke Blitz GG', they're both fast and have precog but I see Sasuke resorting to CS2 for a win and Kakashi hesitating to Kamui a former student.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 6, 2015)

Stratgos.jpeg said:
			
		

> "Experience" is just a very weak non-factor people bring up to prop older, weaker ninja up closer to the level of their opponent. In practice, it doesn't affect ninja at Jonin competency and never has.



You didn't contest Kakashi's superiority in taijutsu or battle performance.  It's very nice that you singled out "experience" and made it the crux of your complaint with my assessment.  I can certainly forfeit it and still have an very strong post, though I could also not, because the complaint is sort of nit-picky and seems more like a personal gripe to me.


*Spoiler*: __ 



_



			Kakashi copies all of Sasuke's raiton variants and beats him up by being more skilled. He'll probably use them better than Sasuke too. Genjutsu is equal, and katons are irrelevant and lose to suitons. The only thing he's got going for him is juin, and He Who Shall Not Be Summoned.
		
Click to expand...

_



If this reads more to your liking, you may pretend I said as much.




			
				Me Quoting Me Quoting You When You Equals Strategos said:
			
		

> At that point in the manga, or at any point before, there was nothing showing Kakashi was more skilled or experienced at shape manipulating raitons than Hebi Sasuke.



I also appreciated how you had to narrow your focus on Kakashi to a specific time period, and limit his spacial manipulation only to raitons.  I can maybe understand time locking him by the nature of this thread, but the latter is a very specific complaint, and I'd liken it to arguments in the vein of, "Minato has never shown the ability to move while forming handseals, so he can't."  It's a literal and somewhat pedantic objection, contradicted by Kakashi himself, and I can't abide that.  





All of Sasuke _completed_ jutsu are A or B Rank.  If you want to object to him copying Kirin, go ahead, but Kirin they ain't the rest of them.  ...ya'll.  Hick talk is confusing and hard for me.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Raikiri is S rank.



So is Kirin. And Kirin is obviously more deserving of the S-rank, no offense to Kakashi fans. Raikiri is a negligibly more effective Chidori, mostlikely inferior to Sasuke's juin/senjutsu Chidori in strength.​


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Qualifications for spacial manipulation is the Rasengan.



That doesn't mean he can copy Sasuke's spatial manipulations _at a moment's notice_. We don't know how long it took him to perfect the Rasengan's spatial manipulation. I doubt it was instantly.​


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You didn't contest Kakashi's superiority in taijutsu or battle performance. It's very nice that you singled out "experience" and made it the crux of your complaint with my assessment. I can certainly forfeit it and still have an very strong post, though I could also not, because the complaint is sort of nit-picky and seems more like a personal gripe to me.



It is a personal gripe. We've seen more "experienced" ninja in the manga repeatedly lose or be outsmarted by less experienced ninja. Because experience _against more fodder_ in wars doesn't matter.​


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I also appreciated how you had to narrow your focus on Kakashi to a specific time period.



You appreciate how I read the OP?​


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## Kai (Oct 7, 2015)

Hussain said:


> What does that have to do with anything tho?
> it was never mentioned or stated that Narudo is weaker than Sasuke.


Naruto "crossed the dangerous bridge" so that he could catch up to Sasuke.


"It's true that teamwork is important. But I want to cross that dangerous bridge by myself."
"Please don't do anything to remove that bridge." (thinks of Sasuke)

Sasuke was still clearly above Naruto at this point.




			
				Hussain said:
			
		

> Depending on Sasuke's level, Oro could take over when Sasuke gets weaker. It's not necessarily the best option
> especially with the fact that Oro is not interested in Kakashi anyway..


Kakashi can't push Sasuke as extensively as Itachi did, who used the power of two Mangekyo techniques to force Orochimaru's emergence.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 7, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Lol to you.
> 
> Part 1 Kakashi (who is under even early Part II Kakashi in everything) could see, understand and counter Itachi's clone feints and jutsu (1)(2). Hebi Sasuke couldn't see Itachi cloning himself even while launching a shit ton of shuriken in the meantime (3).


They both failed to follow Itachi's handseals. Both clearly state so. Both were able to throw up guards. Except in Kakashi's case it was about perception and skill. And Itachi not being 100% serious(as with Tsukuyomi).

Sakura who is fully aware of Kakashi's speed called Sasuke casual performance "unnatural". Tsunade agreed with her. They wouldn't say so if he was simply as fast as/slower than Kakashi. It's that simple. Not mention heaps of speed hype and statements concerning Sasuke's speed. P2 Sasuke was always ahead of Kakashi in terms of speed. Except maybe his fight against B - where he dropped to Kakashi's level due to being weakened.


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## Trojan (Oct 7, 2015)

> They both failed to follow Itachi's handseals. Both clearly state so. Both were able to throw up guards. Except in Kakashi's case it was about perception and skill.* And Itachi not being 100% serious(as with Tsukuyomi).*



Says who? 

and before "Kakashi said he could have killed him" it's about in the real world, not the Tsukuyomi. 



> Sakura who is fully aware of Kakashi's speed called Sasuke casual performance "unnatural". Tsunade agreed with her. They wouldn't say so if he was simply as fast as/slower than Kakashi. It's that simple.



Why wouldn't they say so?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

^ Obito said so. 

Itachi had better dojutsu and genjutsu skill. Why would Sasuke trump?


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## Alex Payne (Oct 7, 2015)

Says Itachi's whole backstory. You can scream retcon all day but it wouldn't change the current plot - Itachi was always trying to support Konoha. He never fought 100% seriously before being summoned as an Edo(except possibly in a flashback vs Oro).



Hussain said:


> Why wouldn't they say so?


Sasuke speed was so good... He must have used drugs! 
It is possible. Btw here is Kakashi's monthly dosage of speed drugs - give it to him pls.
K

Think, Hussain. If there was a guy just as fast/faster around why claim that Sasuke's speed is artificial? Why even make a big deal about it?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Part 1 Kakashi (who is under even early Part II Kakashi in everything) could see, understand and counter Itachi's clone feints and jutsu (1)(2).



In the first scenario, Kakashi was watching from the outside. The feint was never intended for fooling him, an onlooker that Itachi wasn't aware was watching at that point.

In the second scenario, Kakashi merely replaced himself when he made a suiton shield and he dove underwater. He then saw the Itachi clone build-up chakra before it exploded.

Neither showed particular speed, more of a double-feint that he benefitted from as Itachi was taking on multiple opponents. Besides, Zabuza out-feinted Kakashi despite being slower/dumber.​


----------



## Trojan (Oct 7, 2015)

> [=Kai;54481102]Naruto "crossed the dangerous bridge" so that he could catch up to Sasuke.



How did you figure "catch up" rather than "surpass"? 
They have never been equal at the exact same moment. It has always been 1 or the other. 


> "It's true that teamwork is important. But I want to cross that dangerous bridge by myself."
> "Please don't do anything to remove that bridge." (thinks of Sasuke)
> 
> Sasuke was still clearly above Naruto at this point.



Naruto want to show his ability in the battle. And use his FRS successfully, when he first tried to
use FRS against Kakuzu, it did not work, and that about it. 


> Kakashi can't push Sasuke as extensively as Itachi did, who used the power of two Mangekyo techniques to force Orochimaru's emergence.



itachi mind-set is different than Kakashi regarding Sasuke. Also, dealing with different jutsu here.
Sasuke does not really have much to say to Kamui. 

and Kakashi has more chakra than itachi as well...


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## Trojan (Oct 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> ^ Obito said so.
> 
> Itachi had better dojutsu and genjutsu skill. Why would Sasuke trump?



what are you referring to?



Alex Payne said:


> Says Itachi's whole backstory. You can scream retcon all day but it wouldn't change the current plot - Itachi was always trying to support Konoha. He never fought 100% seriously before being summoned as an Edo(except possibly in a flashback vs Oro).



Lol, what does itachi's back story has to do with him attacking Kakashi with full power exactly? 

Are you going to say he also attacked (or tried) to attack Kurnai's head with his Kunai, but he did not really mean to kill her? 



> You can scream retcon all day but it wouldn't change the current plot - Itachi was always trying to support Konoha.


No, you can scream "itachi is good" all you want, but it will never change what happened. Just because he is "good" does not change anything about the crap he did. Is him being good changed the fact
that he sealed the Jinchuurikis? Did it change the fact he tried to kidnap Naruto, and stop Konoha from recovering Gaara? No.

He has his own agenda, and he value Sasuke more than the village. Where was it stated or shown
that he did not use his Genjutsu at full power exactly? Stop creating stuff and treating them as facts, man. 



> He never fought 100% seriously before being summoned as an Edo(except possibly in a flashback vs Oro)



As unbiased as ever, alex. 

I am pretty sure he also told Kisame to get Kakashi because he was joking and caring, he only meant to heal him.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 7, 2015)

Never hate fictional characters, Hussain. It clouds your judgment.


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## Trojan (Oct 7, 2015)

Never love a fictional character alex, it clouds your mind. 

You are stating something, and can never back it with any proof. It's your right to think that of course, but passing
them as facts when they are simply your opinion that backed up by nothing is ridiculous. 

you sound as desperate as stating that Kakashi's history in the ANBU made his holdback, and not using his MS against itachi. 
You can scream "retecon" all you want, but it does not change the fact that Kakashi has MS since he was 13/14.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 7, 2015)

Hussain said:


> You are stating something, and can never back it with any proof. It's your right to think that of course, but passing
> them as facts when they are simply your opinion that backed up by nothing is ridiculous.


Hearing that from you...

Alright, I'll bite. What claims did I not back down?


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## Icegaze (Oct 7, 2015)

Wow serious debate ain't it 

Ok explain how Sasuke deals with kamui 

Cuz seriously outside that he should outdo this version of kakashi . Sasuke at the time had better mastery of raiton

More chakra to spend and simply put better speed feats and hype as well


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 7, 2015)

Better hype? Deidara thought he was a joke when he first saw him, he couldn't believe he was openly challenging him. 

Onoki thought he was a joke, Killer Bee didn't know who he was, Ei toyed with him, Danzo was saving Koto for "Madara" and legit lectured Sasuke during the fight, Yamato didn't give a shit about him, Sai didn't give a shit about him, practically all of the Konoha rookies thought Pain-arc Naruto could shit stomp him. 

Kakashi garners respect from the entire Konoha village, he garnered respect from the Raikage & his bodyguards, the Kazekage, Zabuza, Itachi, Kakuzu, Jiraiya and Deidara who was running from him.


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## Kai (Oct 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Better hype? Deidara thought he was a joke when he first saw him, he couldn't believe he was openly challenging him.
> 
> Onoki thought he was a joke, Killer Bee didn't know who he was, Ei toyed with him, Danzo was saving Koto for "Madara" and legit lectured Sasuke during the fight, Yamato didn't give a shit about him, Sai didn't give a shit about him, practically all of the Konoha rookies thought Pain-arc Naruto could shit stomp him.
> 
> Kakashi garners respect from the entire Konoha village, he garnered respect from the Raikage & his bodyguards, the Kazekage, Zabuza, Itachi, Kakuzu, Jiraiya and Deidara who was running from him.


Adults treated a kid like he was a kid.

Shocker.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 7, 2015)

> You appreciate how I read the OP?



I appreciate this more than you'll ever know.



> That doesn't mean he can copy Sasuke's spatial manipulations at a moment's notice. We don't know how long it took him to perfect the Rasengan's spatial manipulation. I doubt it was instantly.



The sharingan is a thing and it absolutely makes that happen.  I shouldn't have to tell you about that eyeball.



> Raikiri is a negligibly more effective Chidori



Cool.  It's still less technical than raikiri.  Rank doesn't equal power ect et all fin magnifique.  



> And Kirin is obviously more deserving of the S-rank



I don't care what's more deserving, because they're still deserving, and they're both more difficult than Sasuke's A or B ranks according to the author.



> It is a personal gripe. We've seen more "experienced" ninja in the manga repeatedly lose or be outsmarted by less experienced ninja. Because experience against more fodder in wars doesn't matter.



That's cool that you think Kakashi made it into the bingo book for fighting fodder, but at this point Kakashi has fought Zabuza, Kakuzu, Hidan, Deidara, Itachix2, Kisame, Kabuto kind of, and probably some other dudes I forgot about.  Sasuke's fought Deidara, intent to lose Itachi, 10 hours from death Armless Intent to Capture Orochimaru, and maybe you can say Juugo isn't fodder.  That can still mean nothing to you, even though it clearly meant enough to Sakura and Chiyo and Sasori to be brought up and considered in universe, and not change the skill different between Kakashi and Sasuke in both showing and stats.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 7, 2015)

> As unbiased as ever, alex.



But... Alex Payne loves Kakashi most.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 7, 2015)

Kai said:


> Adults treated a kid like he was a kid.
> 
> Shocker.


Deidara was 3 years older than him, a teenager in his own right- and the rookies were the same age as Sasuke.

Age has nothing to do with it. Case and point his own brother Itachi, who at the age of 13, two years younger than Hebi Sasuke, was respected and feared not only within his clan and Konoha as a whole, but globally. Kisame knew about him prior to even meeting him, considering him an honorable adversary for a death battle in their first conversation- when the guy was 13 years old. 

The bottom line is Sasuke had no hype, he was a secret weapon trained by Orochimaru far outside the scope of the world in his little hideouts, and prior to arriving to those hideouts (when he actually did anything in the world) he was low Jounin level at best and nobody gave a fuck about him other than his own circle and some Konoha elites who watched his little play match with Gaara at the Coliseum.

Onoki, Ei, Deidara, Killer Bee, Danzo- none of them respected him because he had no hype.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 7, 2015)

Itachi was tall for his age.  Also he killed the Uchiha clan.  That negates the age thing.  Unless you're Asuma, and then you still think he's an upstart punk.


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Ok explain how Sasuke deals with kamui



Kakashi at the time couldn't hit Deidara directly. He'd never hit Hebi Sasuke IMO. He also isn't particularly likely to use Kamui offensively as he didn't do so against Deva, Kakuzu, Hidan, etc.​


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## Icegaze (Oct 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Better hype? Deidara thought he was a joke when he first saw him, he couldn't believe he was openly challenging him.
> 
> Onoki thought he was a joke, Killer Bee didn't know who he was, Ei toyed with him, Danzo was saving Koto for "Madara" and legit lectured Sasuke during the fight, Yamato didn't give a shit about him, Sai didn't give a shit about him, practically all of the Konoha rookies thought Pain-arc Naruto could shit stomp him.
> 
> Kakashi garners respect from the entire Konoha village, he garnered respect from the Raikage & his bodyguards, the Kazekage, Zabuza, Itachi, Kakuzu, Jiraiya and Deidara who was running from him.




Speed hype !!! Not fame hype !! 
No one called kakashi fast but obito till war arc 

Deidara called him fast, obito called Sasuke too fast 
Sakura called Sasuke too fast 

DB hypes Sasuke speed 

In any case kakashi looses he can't deal with manda


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The sharingan is a thing and it absolutely makes that happen.  I shouldn't have to tell you about that eyeball.



The Sharingan allows the user to see and remember how something is done, but it doesn't mean they can perform advanced shit without practice. That's why every Uchiha scrub didn't have Rasengan.​


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> That's cool that you think Kakashi made it into the bingo book for fighting fodder



Kakashi was in the bingo book  to real criminals.​


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Sasuke's fought Deidara...



You don't seem to understand my point. What good is "experience" against unique S-ranks that don't correlate with one another? We call what you're talking about "knowledge."

A ninja being older or having been in a war and having more "experience" means he has more experience fighting fodder. When ninja are at the Jonin or Kage level, "experience" point is a wash.

i.e. Orochimaru having more "experience" than Itachi, Kakuzu having more "experience" than Naruto, Tsunade having more "experience" than Kabuto, Hidan having more "experience" than Shikamaru, etc.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 7, 2015)

> That's why every Uchiha scrub didn't have Rasengan.



You know who has rasengan?  Kakashi.  



> but it doesn't mean they can perform advanced shit without practice.











_On top of an all-encompassing insight and powerful hypnosis, these eyes are hosts to a jutsu-copying ability that memorizes the techniques their gaze falls upon in an instant, *and replicates them.*_

_*-Receiving a taijutsu blow only once, he makes it his own move!!*_

Everyone in the 10-14 year old demographic knew this about the Sharingan from the Wave Arc.   Only in the Battledome could I find anyone who denies it.  



> You don't seem to understand my point.



I do.  Though you keep changing what you're saying, the gist is experience isn't a big deal.  Like I said though, experience can mean nothing to you, and you can happily shovel it off my list of reasons Kakashi is advantaged.  That alone doesn't change raw ability differences.

Sasuke's 3.5 taijutsu and feats just don't measure up to Kakashi's 4.5 and feats.  



> What good is "experience" against unique S-ranks that don't correlate with one another?



KCM Naruto

Link removed

Kakashi says all the difference between success and failure.  He classed Deidara by type and used his experiences with other long range fighters to draw conclusions on how to beat this one.

But what does he know?  Besides the rasengan. Oh yeah, how to copy jutsu.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

It doesn't matter what is S rank or not.

Kakashi isn't hitting Sasuke with a Raikiri.

He isn't faster, despite what most people think IMO. This can be argued I guess.

Sasuke has stamina to spare, oh and hi CS2

Sasuke has a better sharingan, if you think not your a fanboy. He's an Uchiha, a real one. Kakashi has Kamui over him, that's about it. Sasuke's is superior in every other way by this point. And he has two, deal with it.

Kakashi never showed any real genjutsu against high level enemies. Sasuke trolled Deidara and Orochimaru.

Speaking of Orochimaru, Sasuke did absorb him.

He also has a range advantage over Kakashi when it comes to Taijutsu. Last time I checked Kakashi doesn't have a chidori blade that reaches someone like Deidara who's in mid air. 

Using clones against Sasuke at this point in suicide. Good luck using Kamui with no chakra left. As if Sasuke would fall for them anyways.

All he has over Sasuke is Kamui. Let's be real, he either hits it or gets stomped.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 7, 2015)

Except Sasuke doesn't have better Sharingan than Kakashi. MS > 3-tomoe. 
And Sauce isn't stomping Kamui-less Kakashi either. He'd likely win, sure. But it is going to be a difficult fight for him.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Except Sasuke doesn't have better Sharingan than Kakashi. MS > 3-tomoe.
> And Sauce isn't stomping Kamui-less Kakashi either. He'd likely win, sure. But it is going to be a difficult fight for him.



Proof that MS enhances the Sharingans base abilities? It grants them new techniques, that's it.

Kakashi's is Kamui.

He only uses it for that. If he activates it he is using up most his chakra, if it really made his sharingan 'better' this probably wouldn't be the case.

Nobody uses MS over the 3-tomoe outside of techniques lol.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

Suitons = 'pinnacle of spatial recomposition' in difficulty?

Here's one for you. "It was a lot of work of course." 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Everyone in the 10-14 year old demographic knew this about the Sharingan from the Wave Arc. Only in the Battledome could I find anyone who denies it.



Maybe don't agree with 10-year-olds all the time.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kakashi says all the difference between success and failure.  He classed Deidara by type and used his experiences with other long range fighters to draw conclusions on how to beat this one.



I can see how Kakashi needed his vast experience there. Less experienced ninja like Itachi, Kabuto, Sasuke, Shikamaru, etc. would be completely unable to figure out that long range was needed for an opponent fighting out of reach.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Most the times Kakashi used suitons he had a lake nearby as well.


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## DavyChan (Oct 7, 2015)

kakashi has been portrayed as being weak since the beginning of part 2. seriously...


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

DavyChan said:


> kakashi has been portrayed as being weak since the beginning of part 2. seriously...



Well that is a bit brutal, he isn't 'weak'

The next generation is surpassing him. And he and Sasuke were already pretty similar. He taught Sasuke the Chidori and that became the basis of a whole slew of variants he now uses.


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## Ghost (Oct 7, 2015)

Sasuke wins high diff more often than not.

Sasuke has all the physical advantages with CS and more Chidori variants. Zombie Arc Kakashi didn't have Raiton clone, wolf or the chain. He also has poor Kamui control. I don't remember anything indicating it had improved since the Deidara fight. Kakashi is able to hold his own in CQC with his Taijutsu/Kenjutsu skill but Sasuke's superior speed and strength will overwhelm him.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 7, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Itachi was tall for his age.  Also he killed the Uchiha clan.  That negates the age thing.  Unless you're Asuma, and then you still think he's an upstart punk.


Da fuck? Now your fucking height has something to do with your hype?

He was definitely the same height as Hebi Sasuke if not smaller. 

Killing the Uchiha clan contributes to his hype. That's the fucking point. 



Icegaze said:


> Speed hype !!! Not fame hype !!
> No one called kakashi fast but obito till war arc
> 
> Deidara called him fast, obito called Sasuke too fast
> ...


Yeah, after they fought him. Prior to this he had absolutely no hype for his speed. 

Hyped speed is Minato throwing kunai around the battlefield while looking to fight Ei, after he says he heard he had a pretty fast attack. 

It's not Deidara standing there unconcerned about him or his speed initially, then Deidara commenting about his speed after he sees his shunshin.

Killer Bee didn't even know who the fuck he was.

Granted receiving praise from Killer Bee & Deidara for his speed during the fight is great and all, but he was not known throughout the world for the speed of his attacks, which was outperformed by Raikage and then he didn't even try to blitz anyone else in the entire summit.

>Deidara is slow as fuck receiving speed hype from him is basically worthless, Couldn't avoid C2 pigs with this "hyped" speed
>Barely avoided KN1 Killer Bee, which got him to say "only my brother has avoided it" solid elusive feat & speed hype
>But -> Speed wasn't a factor against Onoki, Mei, Gaara, Darui, Mifune, Danzo
>Sasuke did not have hype as some kind of freakish speed demon, he had kage-level speed like Killer Bee, Kisame, Danzo- none of which are known or identified for their speed


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## Icegaze (Oct 7, 2015)

Too many words 

Why would they know Sasuke who never fought in wars and has no fame 

Kishi the author gave Sasuke more renown for his speed than he did kakashi 

Kakashi can't deal with manda either , ze end

Ps: juubito had less speed fame than A didn't stop him from being a lot faster . 

People can't fear who they don't know 

Sasuke simply was an unknown to them as he had never been in any war


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 7, 2015)

Kakashi is more intelligent and more experienced and Sasuke is not vastly superior to Kakashi in any category. They're pretty evenly matched in most areas and the advantages that either one has are not dramatic. Except for intelligence and experience which give Kakashi a huge advantage when you combine them together. Sasuke is very smart and talented, but he's also inexperienced and arrogant. He's also easy to anger and manipulate. 

He's not faster than Kakashi. He's not stronger than Kakashi. He's not better at Ninjitsu, Taijutsu, or Genjutsu. He's a very good match for Kakashi across the board. But Kakashi has a level head, a wider range of options, and his intelligence benefits him more.

Also, Kirin is not a great finishing move to use against Kakashi. He's one of the best Raiton users in the manga. There's no guarantee that it would even work against Kakashi or if he could just adsorb it like he did with Kakuzu's giant lightning attack. Not to mention Kakashi's tendency to fight with clones. It might not even hit the real Kakashi. 

It also leaves Sasuke completely vulnerable to Kamui or a surprise attack which Kakashi is known for and does consistently in almost every fight. On the flip side, Kamui is a great counter to all of Hebi Sasuke's rebirth and Orochimaru nonsense. Kakashi was prepared to use it on Kakuzu and he was confident it would have finished him off. Sasuke is the type to stand around and gloat when victory is in his grasp. In fact, he likes to stand around a lot in general. He's a very patient fighter and many of his attacks are used standing still. Not a good stance to take against Kamui. I can see many Kamui opportunities throughout most of Sasuke's fights.

Either way, it'd be a tough fight for both characters.


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## Icegaze (Oct 7, 2015)

^would have taken you seriously if you didnt just say kakashi absorbed raiton gian and had better raiton at the time

sasuke had more variants than that version of kakashi, and more lethal ones at that. kakashi only had raikiri

sasuke had like 4 version of chidori


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Sasuke has like the better chakra reserves by a landslide, and this is without CS as well.

His sharingan is better, and he can use it without worry.

He's faster, I do not care what any of you say you won't convince me otherwise. Kakashi is fast, but he's no Sasuke. His speed was top notch even in the hebi days.

Kakashi in straight up cqc is probably better, but good luck considering Sasuke's arsenal, he barely needs to even melee at all with Kakashi, take out his sword, chidori that shit up and Kakashi isn't touching him. And since he's slower like I said, no chance for a surprise attack.

Even if he does he needs clones, and using those = goodbye reserves for Kamui.

Sasuke has Manda. Yeah, GG.

Sasuke has the better genjutsu as well, come at me.

Kakashi has more experience, but that means shit if you can't touch your enemy at all in a 1v1. Especially a sharingan wielding one.


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## Kai (Oct 7, 2015)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi is more intelligent and more experienced and Sasuke is not vastly superior to Kakashi in any category. They're pretty evenly matched in most areas and the advantages that either one has are not dramatic. Except for intelligence and experience which give Kakashi a huge advantage when you combine them together. Sasuke is very smart and talented, but he's also inexperienced and arrogant. He's also easy to anger and manipulate.
> 
> He's not faster than Kakashi. He's not stronger than Kakashi. He's not better at Ninjitsu, Taijutsu, or Genjutsu. He's a very good match for Kakashi across the board. But Kakashi has a level head, a wider range of options, and his intelligence benefits him more.
> 
> ...


And nowhere in this analysis is Kakashi's stamina addressed, a well acknowledged weakness through most of the manga. 

As you say Sasuke is a great match for Kakashi across the board, yet Kakashi can't maintain a high level fight for long, which is precisely what Sasuke's abilities demand against Kakashi's.

You would have to go for Kamui, but we can't just give him Pain-arc feats. Kakashi displayed new found proficiency in both Raiton techs and Kamui usage by then.


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## Santoryu (Oct 7, 2015)

Could go either way; slight edge to Kakashi maybe because he has the Mangekyo Sharingan. If Pain-arc feats were allowed I'd definitely give it to Kakashi though.


In terms of longevity Sasuke might have the edge-but that's mitigated by the fact that his opponent is not only tactically superior-but more efficient in regards to jutsu use. If Sasuke decides to fly he's just asking to be sniped. Remember that he has no knowledge on Kamui; even in the rescue Gaara arc Deidara immediately noted that Kakashi was using jutsu on Itachi's level. I suppose we have no way of knowing  how much of an improvement Kakashi made with his Mangekyo-Sharingan during that arc.

While it's true Naruto was compared to Kakashi during that arc, that doesn't necessarily mean he'd win in a fight. It was also in reference to Naruto mastering FRS. Kakashi would still have won in a one vs one battle. He's a better all round ninja. An injured Kakashi simultaneously held off two Akatasuki members and was noted to be the first character to do so. We don't need an explicit statement saying "he's fast" to conclude that Kakashi and Sasuke are comparable in speed. Sasuke has the stamina advantage, and he seems to be more durable once he activates his cursed form so there's that.


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## Mercurial (Oct 7, 2015)

Kai said:


> And nowhere in this analysis is Kakashi's stamina addressed, a well acknowledged weakness through most of the manga.
> 
> As you say Sasuke is a great match for Kakashi across the board, yet Kakashi can't maintain a high level fight for long, which is precisely what Sasuke's abilities demand against Kakashi's.
> 
> You would have to go for Kamui, but we can't just give him Pain-arc feats. Kakashi displayed new found proficiency in both Raiton techs and Kamui usage by then.



Hebi Sasuke was outlasted by Itachi of all people.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Hebi Sasuke was outlasted by Itachi of all people.



Itachi was on another level that early in in part 2.

And come on, he had access to susanoo.


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## Mercurial (Oct 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Itachi was on another level that early in in part 2.
> 
> And come on, he had access to susanoo.



General power level, yes, Itachi was one of the strongest characters at that time.

But chakra levels? Well not much, really.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

I think Sasuke having good stamina is one of the only reasons he didn't lose even quicker, it's actually a good feat in comparison to a bad feat like you suggest considering what he was up against.


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## Mercurial (Oct 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> I think Sasuke having good stamina is one of the only reasons he didn't lose even quicker, it's actually a good feat in comparison to a bad feat like you suggest considering what he was up against.



He just used some Chidori and Chidori variants plus the Sharingan, a Snake Kawarimi and some Katon ninjutsu. His perfomance was great, even if Itachi wasn't fighting to kill, but if we strictly talk about the chakra/stamina he showed, not that much.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2015)

Hebs takes this. 

Sasuke is faster, has more lethal ninjutsu, more potent genjutsu, stronger summons and more hax overall. Kakashi gets his shit pushed back in actually. 

Sasuke 10/10 mid dif.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> He just used some Chidori and Chidori variants plus the Sharingan, a Snake Kawarimi and some Katon ninjutsu. His perfomance was great, even if Itachi wasn't fighting to kill, but if we strictly talk about the chakra/stamina he showed, not that much.



Orchimaru's snake replacement takes a truckload of chakra. I doubt Kakashi even has enough to do one of them lol.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 7, 2015)

> It doesn't matter what is S rank or not.
> 
> Kakashi isn't hitting Sasuke with a Raikiri.



What about Kakashi hitting him with eiso?  





> I can see how Kakashi needed his vast experience there. Less experienced ninja like *Naruto* would be completely unable to figure out that long range was needed for an opponent fighting out of reach.



Pretty much.  But he could still figure out the sharingan copies things.  In seriousness though, the advantage of already knowing, aka experience, means you don't have to figure things out. You already know what to do, and DO IT.  JUST DO IT.  Yesterday Sasuke said tomorrow, but Kakashi will just do it.  Kakashi won't let his dreams, be dreams.

I don't know why you care so much.  You don't disagree that Kakashi is more skilled or more experienced.  Take away experienced and he's still more skilled, and the more skilled person usually wins.  Do you disagree with that?  Do you think that skill is irrelevant in Jonin level battles? 



> Suitons = 'pinnacle of spatial recomposition' in difficulty?



That suiton was an A rank.  About as difficult as Sasuke's hardest jutsu.  Rasengan does represent that pinnacle though.  If Kakashi can do something harder, why can't he do something easier?  Why is raiton the most difficult element in your head?  Is it to just for the sake of bickering, or do you have some basis for it?



> Here's one for you. "It was a lot of work of course."



Sharingan can't copy raw speed and power or chakra capacity.  Hoo hah.  Those 10-14 year olds understand that too.



> Maybe don't agree with 10-year-olds all the time.



What about the 11-14 year olds Strategos?  Hmm? Why you gotta disagree with 14 year old me?  He was cool if not a little chubby, but he had all the coolest trench coats and katanas, and never went back on his ninja way.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Too many words
> 
> Why would they know Sasuke who never fought in wars and has no fame
> 
> ...


If they don't know him his hype is garbage dude... that's the entire point of my posts. 

He simply was not known for his speed, not only because he hasn't done shit, but because his speed simply was not something to fret about. The Raikage pretty much proved this when he went V2. The Raikage is someone who is known for his speed, not Sasuke. 

MS Sasuke Speed > Hebi Sasuke Speed

MS Sasuke the one with faster feats compared to Hebi Sasuke doesn't even have the feats to be above average kage-level speed. He isn't faster than Base Killer Bee, Danzo or Kisame, which all have basically average kage-level speed.

Hebi Sasuke's only hype feats for speed was Tobi complimenting him (which meant nothing, he was a fucking clown putting on an act), then Deidara saying his speed was too much for him, Deidara is slow as shit bro Sai blitzed him. If you want to count early PT.2 Sakura not perceiving his shunshin at Orochimaru's hideout- go ahead. Doesn't really matter- Deidara perceived it later on. 

Is this the "speed hype" you're talking about? A compliment from a dude playing a role, a slow ass ninja saying he's faster than him, and a slow ass kunochi not reading his shunshin?


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> If they don't know him his hype is garbage dude... that's the entire point of my posts.
> 
> He simply was not known for his speed, not only because he hasn't done shit, but because his speed simply was not something to fret about. The Raikage pretty much proved this when he went V2. The Raikage is someone who is known for his speed, not Sasuke.
> 
> MS Sasuke doesn't have the feats to be above average kage-level speed. He isn't faster than Base Killer Bee, Danzo or Kisame, which all have basically average kage level speed.



What? Ok man, I know you're pretty smart, so please tell me you didn't mean this lol.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You don't disagree that Kakashi is more skilled or more experienced.



Experience against more fodders in a war is a non-factor at the Kage level. What matters at that level is knowledge. Guess who has the advantage of knowledge between the two? Sasuke.

Kakashi is in no way more skilled overall. Hence Sasuke at 15 surpassing 29-year-old Kakashi in raiton power, raiton diversity, Sharingan genjutsu, projectile weapons, and summoning jutsu.

Kakashi has more skill in taijutsu, but Sasuke has the advantage in speed and there's a gap in all physical stats (and jutsu) when he uses the tainted senjutsu boost from the Curse Seal.

Even tactically, an objective person will admit that Hebi Sasuke was tactically more impressive against Deidara and Itachi than Kakashi was against Hidan and Kakuzu.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 7, 2015)

> Experience against more fodders in a war is a non-factor



You really like saying this.  Repetition doesn't equal relevance, though.  



> Kakashi has more skill in taijutsu



Yay.  That only took three pages.  



> Hence Sasuke at 15 surpassing 29-year-old Kakashi in raiton power, raiton diversity,



Sasuke will be really sad when Kakashi steals three years of raiton work in seconds.



> there's a gap in all physical stats (and jutsu) when he uses the tainted senjutsu boost from the Curse Seal.



Because I'm not an obstinate Kakashi fanboy, I do think Curse Seal is something to Sasuke's credit.  But Cursed Seal negates Sasuke's stamina advantage, and at that point Kakashi will probably play defencively, and he has a good toolkit to do that.  Dotons, clones, evasion.  Which is where the negatives from CS kick in.  VS the amount of time Sasuke can use his limited time in CS to clinch a quick win against Kakashi, vs the amount of times he doesn't, I favor Kakashi.  



> Even tactically, an objective person will admit that Hebi Sasuke was tactically more impressive against Deidara and Itachi than Kakashi was against Hidan and Kakuzu.



An objective person would understand that Shikamaru was the strategist for the Hidan and Kakuzu fight, and you're in fact comparing Sasuke's planning to Shikamaru's planning that was adapted to Kakashi's involvement.  But that objective person is probably a 10-14 year old that doesn't have the rasengan.  Unlike Kakashi.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

I concede, Kakashi wins.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 7, 2015)

Screen shotted.  Adding to sig.


*Spoiler*: __


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## Sans (Oct 7, 2015)

Screen shotted, adding to signature.


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## Empathy (Oct 7, 2015)

Kakashi pegged wind Naruto to be at his level, while Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru to become Hebi Sasuke immediately after Kakuzu's defeat. I don't think Sasuke would be powered-up to remain still weaker than Naruto, and both pre-Hebi and Hebi Sasuke shouldn't be weaker than just wind Naruto. Furthermroe, Kakashi proved not to be a match for Kakuzu 1v1 more than once (so did Naruto), whilst Hebi Sasuke fought pretty evenly with Deidara, a mid-level member like Kakuzu (if anything, Deidara seemed like a more valuable member than Hidan and Kakuzu). 

Additionally, Sasuke absorbed another middle-of-the-pack member in Orochimaru to become the inverse of Orochimaru's ambition of what the two intended to confront Itachi with. While Hebi Sasuke wasn't a match for Itachi, he was able to put up a respectable effort, despite Itachi fighting without killing intent—instead Itachi was attempting to force Sasuke to his limit, which in turn brought Itachi to his limits. That resume eclipses having to be repeatedly saved from Kakuzu and equating oneself to wind Naruto in my opinion, and makes sense from a narrative standpoint (contemporary Naruto wouldn't have made a fitting substitute in Sasuke's battles and Sasuke shouldn't still be weaker than Naruto after absorbing Orochimaru). By feats, I guess Sasuke winning seems plausible, although it's not like you can't use feats to envision Kakashi's victory either.


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## Trojan (Oct 7, 2015)

Damn! The Pirate on Wheels, you pulled out the impossible! 

never have I ever believed that any person will agree with anything anyone else say! 

Well, at least you pulled the first stage off. Let's see if time does not take that back all over again. 

still, that's a rep worthy feat.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 8, 2015)

Fascinating dynamic here. Kakashi admits to being equal or inferior to FRS Naruto. In the Hebi Sasuke v. FRS Naruto thread, overwhelming favor for Sasuke.

But now Hebi Sasuke v. Kakashi and people are coming up with all kinds of arguments. Really interesting.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 8, 2015)

Kakashi w/Kamui, no difficulty.

Kakashi w/o Kamui, mid-to-high difficulty, at this point, Kakashi is just a more polished version of Sasuke. The experience and the intimate knowledge would definitely give him the advantage. Even after the time-skip they were rated at the same proficiency  in genjutsu, so I don't see Kakashi losing to him, since that was the greatest jump Sasuke really made over the time skip.


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## Icegaze (Oct 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> If they don't know him his hype is garbage dude... that's the entire point of my posts.
> 
> He simply was not known for his speed, not only because he hasn't done shit, but because his speed simply was not something to fret about. The Raikage pretty much proved this when he went V2. The Raikage is someone who is known for his speed, not Sasuke.
> 
> ...



And they would know him how exactly ?

Kakashi was known for copying jutsu not his speed either so moot point

I guess onoki is slow since you know deidara was flying at his speed

Gaara sand must be really slow considering in a desert he couldn't even kill deidara . 


In the end kakashi has no speed feats at all which puts him faster than hebi Sasuke


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## Ghoztly (Oct 8, 2015)

People just cant accept the student always surpasses the master lmao.

Sasuke has been above Kakashi at every point in this manga after part 2 hit. I get it, you like Kakashi, I do too, but lets be honest.


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## Trojan (Oct 8, 2015)

Rosencrantz said:


> Fascinating dynamic here. Kakashi admits to being equal or inferior to FRS Naruto. In the Hebi Sasuke v. FRS Naruto thread, overwhelming favor for Sasuke.
> 
> But now Hebi Sasuke v. Kakashi and people are coming up with all kinds of arguments. Really interesting.



That's what I find fascinating, and that's the purpose of this thread honestly.  

and the same with the Kakuzu Vs Sasuke as well, even tho Kakuzu almost killed Kakashi several times. 

but regardless, Hebi Sasuke is disgustingly overrated.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> And nowhere in this analysis is Kakashi's stamina addressed, a well acknowledged weakness through most of the manga.
> 
> As you say Sasuke is a great match for Kakashi across the board, yet Kakashi can't maintain a high level fight for long, which is precisely what Sasuke's abilities demand against Kakashi's.
> 
> You would have to go for Kamui, but we can't just give him Pain-arc feats. Kakashi displayed new found proficiency in both Raiton techs and Kamui usage by then.



Kakashi's stamina hasn't really been an issue since part 1. 

Kakashi fought both Hiden AND Kakuzu for a long time and he was still prepared to use Kamui at the end of it all. The only thing that drained Kakashi's stamina in pre-war arc part 2 was Kamui. And that was after multiple uses while he was still learning how to use the technique efficiently. 

Just because Kakashi never used Raikiri variants before the Pain fight doesn't mean he wasn't capable of doing so. He used a double Raikiri against Kakuzu seemingly out of nowhere. He didn't proclaim it to be a new technique... it was just what he needed to do in order to stop Kakuzu's attack. Something that wouldn't be necessary in most situations. Same with his Raikiri wolf. He wanted to test Pain's ability to negate Ninjutsu so he used a different Raikiri variant... again, out of necessity.

There's no reason to believe that Kakashi couldn't use ANY variants on his Raikiri before we see them. He created the Raikiri. He's a master Raiton user. If he needed to counter Sasuke's Chidori variants, I have no doubt he'd come up with something... again... out of necessity. It's just how stories like this work. The author trickles in new abilities consistently so that there's a constant sense of escalation. It doesn't make sense that Kakashi somehow gained top tier stamina in the war arc... but the story demanded it. And that's all these battledome fights are. Little stories that we each create individually.


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## Kai (Oct 9, 2015)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi's stamina hasn't really been an issue since part 1.
> 
> Kakashi fought both Hiden AND Kakuzu for a long time and he was still prepared to use Kamui at the end of it all. The only thing that drained Kakashi's stamina in pre-war arc part 2 was Kamui. And that was after multiple uses while he was still learning how to use the technique efficiently.
> 
> ...


So you want me to believe that when new Raiton techs are shown in the same exact fights Kamui's accuracy drastically improves from before, that we should consider Kakashi getting better at Kamui usage but think his Raiton techs existed since the beginning?

Kakashi improved his base abilities and his dojutsu. More power to him if the story demanded it.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 9, 2015)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi's stamina hasn't really been an issue since part 1.


Kakashi spent half of his chakra tank by using Raikiri, Doryuheki, RKB and Raiton Hound against Pain. His stamina was always an issue before War Arc.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> So you want me to believe that when new Raiton techs are shown in the same exact fights Kamui's accuracy drastically improves from before, that we should consider Kakashi getting better at Kamui usage but think his Raiton techs existed since the beginning?
> 
> Kakashi improved his base abilities and his dojutsu. More power to him if the story demanded it.



You can believe whatever you want to believe.

A single technique growing more efficient is easy to demonstrate when it's used over and over again. Showing a character's entire arsenal on an accurate time table is not nearly as simple. We aren't following every character 24/7. We didn't see double Raikiri before the Kakuzu fight. Doesn't mean Kakashi was incapable of using it before that point in time. Same with the Raikiri wolf. Especially since he gave no indication that these were new techniques. In fact, the ease and swiftness in which he used both of those variants indicates that he had at least practiced them before they were revealed to the reader... just as Kakashi had been practicing Kamui before it was revealed for the first time to us.  

That wasn't really my point though. I was saying that Kakashi used those techniques in situations that demanded them. Maybe he needed to use them in a fight that we never got to see. Maybe he didn't and when we saw them was truly the first time he'd ever used them. Either way, Kakashi is capable of manipulating Raiton to suit his situation. The author decides when we see those variations. But it's highly unlikely that Kakashi wouldn't be able to adapt to a fight against Sasuke's Raiton abilities when he did so against Kakuzu, Pain, Obito, and the V2s.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kakashi spent half of his chakra tank by using Raikiri, Doryuheki, RKB and Raiton Hound against Pain. His stamina was always an issue before War Arc.



... 

And two Kamui. Which, like I said, is the cause behind any of Kakashi's stamina problems in part 2. He used more techniques and lasted much longer against Kakuzu and Hiden which took place before Pain... so yeah. Only really cements my point there.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 9, 2015)

Kamui was used after Kakashi spent half of his chakra on just a couple of moves. First Kamui was the smallest ever used. And the second killed him.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kamui was used after Kakashi spent half of his chakra on just a couple of moves. First Kamui was the smallest ever used. And the second killed him.



So two Kamui is enough to drain HALF of Kakashi's stamina? Seems like a problem to me. 

Again... he used more techniques and lasted longer against Kakuzu and Hiden... and guess which move he DIDN'T use at all in that fight? Kamui. 

Kakashi's stamina was his weakest point before the war, but it was never as bad as it was in part 1. Probably because Kishi decided that he wanted Naruto to turn into DBZ and move away from tactics and worrying about things like Chakra. Whatever the case may be, his performance against Hiden and Kakuzu indicates that stamina won't be an issue against Sasuke if he uses Kamui sparingly or not at all.


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## Kai (Oct 9, 2015)

Kakashi's stamina wasn't an issue? Kakashi actually killed himself using up his chakra.






Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> You can believe whatever you want to believe.
> 
> A single technique growing more efficient is easy to demonstrate when it's used over and over again. Showing a character's entire arsenal on an accurate time table is not nearly as simple. We aren't following every character 24/7. We didn't see double Raikiri before the Kakuzu fight. Doesn't mean Kakashi was incapable of using it before that point in time. Same with the Raikiri wolf. Especially since he gave no indication that these were new techniques. In fact, the ease and swiftness in which he used both of those variants indicates that he had at least practiced them before they were revealed to the reader... just as Kakashi had been practicing Kamui before it was revealed for the first time to us.
> 
> That wasn't really my point though. I was saying that Kakashi used those techniques in situations that demanded them. Maybe he needed to use them in a fight that we never got to see. Maybe he didn't and when we saw them was truly the first time he'd ever used them. Either way, Kakashi is capable of manipulating Raiton to suit his situation. The author decides when we see those variations. But it's highly unlikely that Kakashi wouldn't be able to adapt to a fight against Sasuke's Raiton abilities when he did so against Kakuzu, Pain, Obito, and the V2s.


It doesn't mean Kakashi was incapable of using those Raiton techs before the actual fights, it implies he gained them since the passage of the previous fight, possibly through training or an off-panel fight as you stated.

It's inconceivable that Kakashi's abilities remained static since the start of  Shippuden and simply gradually revealed what he already had. Through each major arc fight he participated in, he showed new Raiton techs never before seen. Coincidentally the same fights his Kamui proficiency drastically increases, and other main characters either develop or reveal their powers.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> It doesn't mean Kakashi was incapable of using those Raiton techs before the actual fights, it implies he gained them since the passage of the previous fight, possibly through training or an off-panel fight as you stated.
> 
> It's inconceivable that Kakashi's abilities remained static since the start of  Shippuden. Through each major arc fight he participated in, he showed new Raiton techs never before seen. Coincidentally the same fights his Kamui proficiency drastically increases, and other main characters either develop or reveal their powers.



Ok.

Again... not really my point.


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## Kai (Oct 9, 2015)

Let's put it this way.
How was Raikiri Wolf more applicable against Pain than it was against Kakashi's previous opponents?

How did Raikiri Wolf fit that situation more for us to see it for the first time?


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## Alex Payne (Oct 9, 2015)

Kakashi used 2 Raikiris+Double Raikiri and Suijinheki vs Hidan and Kakuzu. And stated that Kamui would have landed him in a hospital. Meaning that last Kamui would have used all his remaining chakra. Kakashi himself stated that stamina was an issue after Double Raikiri. He can't compete with Hebi Sasuke in a straight up stamina challenge. He'd lose to just Base one due to Sharingan drain.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> How was Raikiri Wolf more applicable against Pain than it was against Kakashi's previous opponents?
> 
> How did Raikiri Wolf fit that situation more for us to see it for the first time?



Kakashi had no opportunity to use it against Deidara who was constantly out of range. He didn't need to use it against Hiden because it wasn't part of Shikamaru's plan nor against Kakuzu because it would be inefficient against multiple opponents (his hearts). 

The real reason is because the author wanted it to be shown then because he just came up with it. Which IS my point. This is a fake fight between fictional characters. Kakashi as a character has consistently shown to be very adaptable. It's not really a stretch to imagine that he'd be able to counter Sasuke's Raiton abilities given his own mastery of the element and his feats showing his ability to transform his Raikiri into whatever suits him at the time. I'm not saying he's going to use his wolf against Sasuke because he'll use whatever is best for the situation he's in. Regardless of the shape it takes.


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## Kai (Oct 9, 2015)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kakashi had no opportunity to use it against Deidara who was constantly out of range. He didn't need to use it against Hiden because it wasn't part of Shikamaru's plan nor against Kakuzu because it would be inefficient against multiple opponents (his hearts).
> 
> The real reason is because the author wanted it to be shown then because he just came up with it. Which IS my point. This is a fake fight between fictional characters. Kakashi as a character has consistently shown to be very adaptable. It's not really a stretch to imagine that he'd be able to counter Sasuke's Raiton abilities given his own mastery of the element and his feats showing his ability to transform his Raikiri into whatever suits him at the time. I'm not saying he's going to use his wolf against Sasuke because he'll use whatever is best for the situation he's in. Regardless of the shape it takes.


Which means the fight against Deva Pain was no more situational for Kakashi to use Raikiri wolf than it was for Hidan or Kakuzu. Like it only makes sense that Kakashi developed the Raiton: Kage Bunshin variation and didn't always have it. 

I'm afraid it's time to give this one up, friend. Kakashi's mastery over his Raiton simply improved throughout Shippuden. Even if that includes thinking in new ways to apply those techniques he never had to before.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 9, 2015)

Kakashi is facing a guy with either just as good Raiton-mastery or a higher mastery. Who has greater stamina in Base and can activate pseudo-senjutsu to boost his chakra and buff his moves. How is he going to beat him in pure Raiton-challenge? You'd need either higher Raiton skills, higher stamina or strong Futon game to win this one.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kakashi used 2 Raikiris+Double Raikiri and Suijinheki vs Hidan and Kakuzu. And stated that Kamui would have landed him in a hospital. Meaning that last Kamui would have used all his remaining chakra. Kakashi himself stated that stamina was an issue after Double Raikiri. He can't compete with Hebi Sasuke in a straight up stamina challenge. He'd lose to just Base one due to Sharingan drain.



And a shadow clone and a ton of CQC. I never said Kakashi was equal to or better than Sasuke when it came to stamina.

Lucky for Kakashi, stamina isn't the only factor in a match.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> Which means the fight against Deva Pain was no more situational for Kakashi to use Raikiri wolf than it was Hidan or Kakuzu. Like it only makes sense that Kakashi developed the Raiton: Kage Bunshin variation and didn't always have it.
> 
> I'm afraid it's time to give this one up, friend. Kakashi's mastery over his Raiton simply improved throughout Shippuden.



Actually it was. If you read the dialogue, Kakashi wanted to test Devi's abilities. He knew he could push back physical attacks, but not chakra based attacks. There was no need for that kind of attack against Kakuzu or Hiden at all.


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## Kai (Oct 9, 2015)

"Chakra based attacks" doesn't single out Raikiri Wolf at all over other chakra based attacksl. What does single out Raikiri Wolf to be used, is that Kakashi developed a new trick or variation and wanted to use it in a high level fight.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> "Chakra based attacks" doesn't single out Raikiri Wolf at all over other chakra based attacksl. What does single out Raikiri Wolf to be used, is that Kakashi developed a new trick or variation and wanted to use it in a high level fight.



Or he needed to use a chakra based technique that he could control from a distance so that Pain was forced to use his push ability as opposed to simply dodging it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 9, 2015)

Suitons are good for that.  Probably less expensive than raikiri variants.  Bust out a little water snake.


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## Kai (Oct 9, 2015)

Something he obviously had developed.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 9, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Suitons are good for that.  Probably less expensive than raikiri variants.  Bust out a little water snake.



Wasn't a great water source nearby. Perhaps Suiton's cost more without a source. Or Kakashi didn't feel like it. Or the author wanted to draw something new and cool. It's a pointless argument when it really just comes down to, "the author decides what happens and when it happens".

And my point was never that Kakashi already knew that specific Raikiri variant during the Kakuzu/Hiden fight. But this is battledome where we love to get bogged down in the specifics.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 9, 2015)

I think Kakashi saw gian bolts and adapted that jutsu into a raikiri varient.  If you take away the wolf, it looks suspiciously like Kakuzu's raiton bolt.  

If your point is that Kakashi will have a counter, that's okay, but it's a bit like saying Shikamaru will think of "the perfect strategy," and win all his fights.  Maybe that's true, but we can't really argue for and against.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 9, 2015)

There are a couple of power inflations in the manga.

Part 2 inflation - major
Pain arc inflation - minor
War arc inflation - major
JJ arc inflation - major

Up until war arc, Kakashi's stamina was always a problem. Using Kamui was out of the question unless it was a last resort and it inflicted heavy physical distress on Kakashi regardless of the size of it.


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## Sans (Oct 9, 2015)

Kakashi was actually his DMS War Arc incarnation in the first Bell Test.

He just didn't feel like showing off his various moves until he did so in the manga.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 9, 2015)

The whole Kamui thing is also a shitty retcon.

Manga implied he developed it during the time skip


Databook says it is a product of hard work


Later on it turns out Kakashi had it but didn't know


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Oct 9, 2015)

Komnenos said:


> Kakashi was actually his DMS War Arc incarnation in the first Bell Test.
> 
> He just didn't feel like showing off his various moves until he did so in the manga.



Your reading comprehension is off the charts bro!


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## Sans (Oct 10, 2015)

Thanks man I try really hard.


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## Ashi (Oct 10, 2015)

A Hussain  thread featuring an Uchiha that's balanced?

These two are pretty even given when they appear, it'll probably drag into a stalemate, but Sasuke-kun has no answer to Kamui


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## GearsUp (Oct 10, 2015)

Knight of Chaos said:


> Well why did you bring it up?



Lmao

Anyway Kakashi 6/10

Better taijutsu and speed, etc and comparable ninjutsu; genjutsu is no matter cause no mangekyo at this point

^yea and kamui


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