# Dual MS Rikudō Chakra Kakashi vs Rinnegan Sasuke



## The Real Uchiha (Oct 20, 2016)

No restrictions. Who wins?


----------



## Bonly (Oct 20, 2016)

Sasuke punches the air with Chidori and Kakashi finds himself being Rin'd, he can't do much about it so yeah.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## ARGUS (Oct 20, 2016)

-- Sasukes PS > Kakashis 

 -- Enton makes the kamui shuriken disappear

 -- preta absorbs the piercing affect of kamui raikiri so nothing gets warped since it only warps what the raikiri pierces 

 -- once Kakashi tries to warp Sasuke, he ends up getting ameno blitzed with a sword through his chest

Sasuke wins

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Android (Oct 20, 2016)

Wasn't this match up done like 100 times before ?? 
Anyway , Sasue wins with mid difficulty , his Susanoo is much stronger , his eye is much better and his S/T jutsu is much better .

Edit : know what ? scratch that , Rinnegan Genjutsu GG .

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## Arles Celes (Oct 20, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Wasn't this match up done like 100 times before ??
> Anyway , Sasue wins with mid difficulty , his Susanoo is much stronger , his eye is much better and his S/T jutsu is much better .



B...but DMS Kakashi was stomping Kaguya. 

Or so I have heard somewhere.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Android (Oct 20, 2016)

Arles Celes said:


> B...but DMS Kakashi was stomping Kaguya.
> 
> Or so I have heard somewhere.


Oh you didn't hear ?? by direct portrayal he's automatically above anyone but her

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 20, 2016)

Double Kamui is extremely OP. Kakashi loses, but it won't be any less than a high-difficulty fight, and mainly because he'll be out of juice before he can push Sasuke further.


----------



## Android (Oct 20, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Double Kamui is extremely OP. Kakashi loses, but it won't be any less than a high-difficulty fight, and mainly because he'll be out of juice before he can push Sasuke further.


Nah bruh , Rinnegan Genjutus GG .


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 20, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Nah bruh , Rinnegan Genjutus GG .



That's also OP. However, I don't think it's going to come to that, since he's only ever used it on tailed beasts which leads me to believe that it's mainly used to subdue them.


----------



## Android (Oct 20, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> That's also OP. However, I don't think it's going to come to that, since he's only ever used it on tailed beasts which leads me to believe that it's mainly used to subdue them.


So ? what if he used it on tailed beasts ? Madara also used his genjutsu on a Bijuu .
He also used his Rinne genjutsu on Sakura and left her knocked out for a day ; from the looks of it tho , Kakashi couldn't wake her up .
Sasuke Dojutsu is 2 steps ahead of Kakashi's , he's not breaking it .


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 20, 2016)

Is this the same Kakashi that schooled a stronger version of the Kaguya that  manhandled naruto and sasuke? If so then close fight either way, Sasuke has a  chance if he can tag kakashi before his juice runs out but Kakashi's susanoo seems superior in the long range department without mentioning phasing of course.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Android (Oct 20, 2016)

@Crimson Flam3s .
I don't get you Kakashi supporters .
If he outpeformed and " schooled " Kaguya , that means by your logic he's also stronger than her . And stronger than Rikudo Sennin as well .

Where do you guys draw the line here ??????????

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Oct 20, 2016)

@Raikiri19


----------



## Android (Oct 20, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> @Raikiri19



Authority of the god .

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 20, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> @Crimson Flam3s .
> I don't get you Kakashi supporters .
> If he outpeformed and " schooled " Kaguya , that means by your logic he's also stronger than her . And stronger than Rikudo Sennin as well .
> 
> Where do you guys draw the line here ??????????



Don't ask me. Instead ask Kishimoto instead why he gave Kakashi those feats. The Manga clearly showed him dealing with the giant arms without taking a sweat while Naruto and Sasuke were almost getting reked by them, had him strike Kaguya, on the words of your boy naruto a "cooler susanoo", Kamui shurikens which cannot be blocked by anything etc etc and all of this performance against a much stronger version of Kaguya per Zetsu.

Eventually you  have to get around handling the facts.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Android (Oct 20, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Don't ask me. Instead ask Kishimoto instead why he gave Kakashi those feats. The Manga clearly showed him dealing with the giant arms without taking a sweat while Naruto and Sasuke were almost getting reked by them, had him strike Kaguya, on the words of your boy naruto a "cooler susanoo", Kamui shurikens which cannot be blocked by anything etc etc and all of this performance against a much stronger version of Kaguya per Zetsu.
> 
> Eventually you  have to get around handling the facts.


What facts ? 
Naruto's feats alone takes a big dump on Kakashi Lmao , who smacked her to a mountain ? who did punched her in the face ? who nuked her with 9 FRS ?? who held her back all the time while they were saving Sasuke ?? who did clone feinted her and BZ twice ?? who did speedblitzed her with no reaction whatsoever ??? who did cut off her arm completely , who did rect to her Y-Hirasaka point balnk from behind and was praised for his reactions by BZ ??? 
Yet somehow Kakashi did better for one Raikiri and 4 Shurikens ?? : 
Naruto hit her more than 12 time , while Kakashi is getting wanked by his fans for one Raikiri


----------



## Ayala (Oct 20, 2016)

That's how u know someone is worth something, when given One chapter he turns the tides of the battle. 

And makes a plan to get to seal her while he's at it. And saves Naruto while he's at it.


----------



## Android (Oct 20, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> That's how u know someone is worth something, when given One chapter he turns the tides of the battle.
> 
> And makes a plan to get to seal her while he's at it. And saves Naruto while he's at it.


So , old ass Hiruzen saved Naruto from the Shinjuu roots while Minato and Tobirama couldnt .
Hiruzen is stronger than Minato and Tobi confirmed , right ? 
Let's be real here , a guy with a Rinnegan and all of Hago's shadow chakra >>>>>>>>>> a guy with MS and a small portion of low quality Six paths chakra .


----------



## Ayala (Oct 20, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> So , old ass Hiruzen saved Naruto from the Shinjuu roots while Minato and Tobirama couldnt .
> Hiruzen is stronger than Minato and Tobi confirmed , right ?
> Let's be real here , a guy with a Rinnegan and all of Hago's shadow chakra >>>>>>>>>> a guy with MS and a small portion of low quality Six paths chakra .



Your example makes me laugh as it doesn't even compare 

And that's how u know someone is worth something, when given a piece of strong chakra once in a lifetime he turns the defeat into a victory....


----------



## Android (Oct 20, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> Your example makes me laugh as it doesn't even compare


Rather your unability to grasp it .


oetsuthebest said:


> And that's how u know someone is worth something, when given a piece of strong chakra once in a lifetime he turns the defeat into a victory....


What defeat ?  
They were still fighting her , when she was unstable because of Naruto's attack , all what Kakashi did was playing his role by supporting them , this however doesn't mean that he's anywhere near their level lol .
By this logic , Boruto is far stronger than the gokage because he hit Momoshiki with his Rasengan and ended his Kage mane Jutsu , and then killed him with a super great ball Rasengan . Lol .


----------



## Ayala (Oct 20, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Rather your unability to grasp it .
> 
> What defeat ?
> They were still fighting her , when she was unstable because of Naruto's attack , all what Kakashi did was playing his role by supporting them , this however doesn't mean that he's anywhere near their level lol .
> By this logic , Boruto is far stronger than the gokage because he hit Momoshiki with his Rasengan and ended his Kage mane Jutsu , and then killed him with a super great ball Rasengan . Lol .





Your example is bad, and your answer doesn't have anything to do with mine. As usual

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Android (Oct 20, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> Your example is bad, and your answer doesn't have anything to do with mine. As usual


Concession accepted


----------



## Ayala (Oct 20, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Concession accepted :smoe





The more i read, the more i despair. I will awaken my own Sharingan at this rate

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Android (Oct 20, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> The more i read, the more i despair. I will awaken my own Sharingan at this rate


I dont even know you anymore


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 20, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> What facts ?
> Naruto's feats alone takes a big dump on Kakashi Lmao , who smacked her to a mountain ? who did punched her in the face ? who nuked her with 9 FRS ?? who held her back all the time while they were saving Sasuke ?? who did clone feinted her and BZ twice ?? who did speedblitzed her with no reaction whatsoever ??? who did cut off her arm completely , who did rect to her Y-Hirasaka point balnk from behind and was praised for his reactions by BZ ???
> Yet somehow Kakashi did better for one Raikiri and 4 Shurikens ?? :
> Naruto hit her more than 12 time , while Kakashi is getting wanked by his fans for one Raikiri



Wow that is very impressive indeed. What's even more impressive is that in less than a chapter, Kakashi damaged her more in a single move than Naruto did during the whole battle. He turned the tide of the battle as soon as he stepped in, moreso than what Naruto plus Sasuke did over the span of several chapters, against an even more powerful version.

Got any more nonsense under your sleeve? It's pretty entertaining to deconstruct half assed posts you know.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Oct 20, 2016)

Ahem...

Rinnegan genjutsu gg
Ameno onto a chidori gg
Ameno onto susanoo blade gg
Ameno onto amaterasu gg
Ameno kakashi out of his PS gg
Ameno kakashis head into his own kamui shuriken gg
Enton cancels kamui shuriken gg
Rinnegan PS>>>Kakashi PS gg
Preta eats anything kakashi throws at him gg
^kamui/kamui shuriken included gg
Blitz  in h2h if it ever comes to that gg
Outlast gg

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 20, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Ahem...
> 
> Rinnegan genjutsu gg
> Ameno onto a chidori gg
> ...



Phasing negates everything in that list.Pretty does nothing to kamui as it is not a chakra construct, further proved by the fact that Kakashi was able to Kamui Madaras goudama shield which negates any ninjutsu. Kamui shurikens will simply swallow whatever enton it comes into contact with until finally reaching it's desired target.

Nice try, but not good enough.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Oct 20, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Phasing negates everything in that list


Kakashi wont react to ameno in time, hell its debatable if kakashi can react to sasukes base speed in time, juubi mads had a hard time against both. Intangibility also does shit against genjutsu, and sasuke can ameno kakashi an inch in front of his face and force the eye contact he needs, not that hed even need to resort to that *considering he neg diffed all 9 tailed beasts with genjutsu he cast with* a single glance.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Pretty does nothing to kamui as it is not a chakra construct


Preta could very likely absorb any kamui based technique ie shuriken ie kakashis left eyes abiility considering preta is a barrier technique to counter ninjutsu.


Crimson Flam3s said:


> further proved by the fact that Kakashi was able to Kamui Madaras goudama shield which negates any ninjutsu.


See above. preta isnt a physical thing, its a barrier, the TSBs have physical form.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Kamui shurikens will simply swallow whatever enton it comes into contact with until finally reaching it's desired target.


Thats not how kamui shuriken works, it hits the first thing it comes in contact with and then fazes out of existence. Hell sasuke could counter them with simple shuriken himself. As long as they do not touch him they are worthless, even if they do touch him he can just eat them with preta.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Nice try, but not good enough.


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 21, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Kakashi wont react to ameno in time, hell its debatable if kakashi can react to sasukes base speed in time, juubi mads had a hard time against both.



Kakashi in dual ms mode already reacted and blitzed someone faster than that feat. Kaguya



> Intangibility also does shit against genjutsu, and sasuke can ameno kakashi an inch in front of his face and force the eye contact he needs, not that hed even need to resort to that *considering he neg diffed all 9 tailed beasts with genjutsu he cast with* a single glance.



The same tailed beasts that have been shown to be fodder against pretty much any genjutsu? I wonder why Sasuke did not use this so powerful technique against Naruto then?



> Preta could very likely absorb any kamui based technique ie shuriken ie kakashis left eyes abiility considering preta is a barrier technique to counter ninjutsu.



Again, preta path cannot absorb a wormhole, it's not a chakra construct. Even the databook says there is no defense against it.

I think it might be able to stop the shurikens since all the chakra to create Kamui is there. Has sasuke ever created a barrier around him? All I saw is a puny barrier around his fist used against Naruto. Not gonna do anything against the giant sized shurikens at least 4 of them coming from different directions.



> See above. preta isnt a physical thing, its a barrier, the TSBs have physical form.



Makes no difference since it's not a chakra construct.



> Thats not how kamui shuriken works, it hits the first thing it comes in contact with and then fazes out of existence. Hell sasuke could counter them with simple shuriken himself. As long as they do not touch him they are worthless, even if they do touch him he can just eat them with preta.



Actually it's stated that the shurikens cut through objects  They would easily cut through something of low resistance until hitting it's actual solid target like Sasuke's susanoo. Think of it as the same as throwing a shuriken through a paper into a wall. Is the paper going to stop it? No the final resting place will be the wall.

He has not been shown to create a barrier( does the barrier appear in the front or all around the user?) I don't see how he could catch even one of them given their size, but assuming he does then he has 3 more to deal with.

One hit on his perfect susano near his location is all that it's needed to form a space barrier and once that it's formed he can't stop it.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Oct 21, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> The same tailed beasts that have been shown to be fodder against pretty much any genjutsu? I wonder why Sasuke did not use this so powerful technique against Naruto then?



Naruto is a perfect jin, genjutsu is shrugged off by perfect jins, kakashi isnt a perfect jin, meaning he is gonna get lolstomped by genjutsu at a level that can murk 9 tailed beasts with a glance.Intangibility or no.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Again, preta path cannot absorb a wormhole, it's not a chakra construct. Even the databook says there is no defense against it.
> 
> I think it might be able to stop the shurikens since all the chakra to create Kamui is there. Has sasuke ever created a barrier around him? All I saw is a puny barrier around his fist used against Naruto. Not gonna do anything against the giant sized shurikens at least 4 of them coming from different directions.


Kamui isnt a wormhole, its a barrier ninjutsu that can have its range specified by the user, barrier ninjutsu =chakra construct=can be absorbed by preta. Pretty sure this is in the third databook, i have no idea where to find databook scans otherwise i would post it here.
Sasuke could create a preta barrier around his entire forearm when he was the definition of exhausted after fighting naruto for 24 straight hours, so just scale up for full stamina and its obvious he can cover himself with a barrier, mads could do it when he was an edo, and its stated many times that an edo rinnegan isnt as complete or as powerful as a true rinnegan, mads also doesnt have rikudo chakra, nagato could do it and the rinnegan wasnt even originally his, and he also didnt have rikudo chakra. But if that doesnt work for you in the beginning of the VOTE 2 fight he could also drain the chakra from the nine tailed beasts while they were inside meteors, considering no other rinnegan ability absorbs chakra, its a safe bet he used preta to do that.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Makes no difference since it's not a chakra construct.


See above.


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Actually it's stated that the shurikens cut through objects  They would easily cut through something of low resistance until hitting it's actual solid target like Sasuke's susanoo. Think of it as the same as throwing a shuriken through a paper into a wall. Is the paper going to stop it? No the final resting place will be the wall.
> 
> He has not been shown to create a barrier( does the barrier appear in the front or all around the user?) I don't see how he could catch even one of them given their size, but assuming he does then he has 3 more to deal with.
> 
> One hit on his perfect susano near his location is all that it's needed to form a space barrier and once that it's formed he can't stop it.


Feats>statements and the first solid thing they came in contact with made the shurikens disappear along with it, enton=/= paper, it would be the wall in your analogy. Any solid thing sasuke threw at the shuriken would stop them, like enton, or his susanoo arrows that he countered TSBs with.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 21, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Naruto is a perfect jin, genjutsu is shrugged off by perfect jins, kakashi isnt a perfect jin, meaning he is gonna get lolstomped by genjutsu at a level that can murk 9 tailed beasts with a glance.Intangibility or no.



The same genjusu that lolstomps the tailed beasts is going to get dispelled by a tailed beast? lol

Also wasn't naruto placed under genjutsu in the last?

His genjutsu was powerful indeed but given the history of Tailed beasts having a weakness against any sharingan/rinnegan genjutsu, I'm inclined to say this genjutsu only applies against the tailed beasts. How many times has he used it besides that one time without mentioning that attempting it against naruto would have given him a chance to kill him as it takes a few moments to be dispelled just like it happened with bee.



> Kamui isnt a wormhole, its a barrier ninjutsu that can have its range specified by the user, barrier ninjutsu =chakra construct=can be absorbed by preta. Pretty sure this is in the third databook, i have no idea where to find databook scans otherwise i would post it here.





Again the barrier is not made of chakra, otherwise any part of that barrier would have been negated the moment it came into the tsb's contact.



> Sasuke could create a preta barrier around his entire forearm when he was the definition of exhausted after fighting naruto for 24 straight hours, so just scale up for full stamina and its obvious he can cover himself with a barrier, mads could do it when he was an edo, and its stated many times that an edo rinnegan isnt as complete or as powerful as a true rinnegan, mads also doesnt have rikudo chakra, nagato could do it and the rinnegan wasnt even originally his, and he also didnt have rikudo chakra. But if that doesnt work for you in the beginning of the VOTE 2 fight he could also drain the chakra from the nine tailed beasts while they were inside meteors, considering no other rinnegan ability absorbs chakra, its a safe bet he used preta to do that.



Or maybe he just doesn't have much prowess using preta path. He had plenty of chances to use that technique thought the fight, and it did not come into play until the end.

If his chakra absorption worked like it did with the tailed beasts as you suggest then he could have literally stand still and wirelessly absorb every single one of naruto's attack without moving a finger.



> Feats>statements and the first solid thing they came in contact with made the shurikens disappear along with it, enton=/= paper, it would be the wall in your analogy. Any solid thing sasuke threw at the shuriken would stop them, like enton, or his susanoo arrows that he countered TSBs with.



Any proof that sasuke can make any projectiles that could possibly "clash" with the kamui shurikens?

This is their size btw 

Any minuscule enton projectile sasuke comes up with makes no difference to these shuriken once they are thrown.

I will give you the arrows though, sadly sasuke has only shown he can handle 3 in quick succesion, while kakashi has 4. Do the math.

Still see no counter to phasing ability that's not even dependent on reactions and activates automatically.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Max Thunder (Oct 21, 2016)

Lol at

'Sasuke has shown he can *only* deal with 3 at quick succession'

Mega reaching, you're trying to compare the speed of hand thrown shuriken to the speed of a crossbow bolt? Sasuke could throw 6 arrows or more before the Kamui shuriken even reach him.

The real question is what is Kakashi's answer to the three arrows if they get launched first?

Counter to phasing -1 Kakashi's power lasts for an impressive 2 minutes.
2 - Kamui users have to be tangible to hit an enemy.
3 - Users can only be intangible for 5 minutes at a time, which is longer than Kakahi's DMS even last 

Also please provide a scan for where it states that phasing happens 'automatically' because I don't remember that ever being said.


----------



## Android (Oct 21, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Wow that is very impressive indeed. What's even more impressive is that in less than a chapter, Kakashi damaged her more in a single move than Naruto did during the whole battle. He turned the tide of the battle as soon as he stepped in, moreso than what Naruto plus Sasuke did over the span of several chapters, against an even more powerful version.


 
The guy who thinks a man with a single hit is better than the guy who fought Kaguya alone and kept her and by , should not be taing about nonsene .
Do you guys have to look in the garbage can for these arguments or something , considering the fact that you actually read the manga but you came to the conclusion that 1 hit > 13 hits ? Lmao , logic much ? 
And where do you guys came with the nonsense that Kakashi fought ?  since when is 1 hit means fighting ?  
I guess boruto " fought " Momoshiki because he hit him once or twice  . Or that he's better than Sasuke and the Kages because he destroyed Momoshiki .
Better yet , Boruto himself would take a dump on Kakashi , not only did he hit momoshiki , but he slaughtered him completely .


----------



## Hasan (Oct 21, 2016)

Depends, if Sasuke's able to negate Right-eye Kamui — and Kakashi's IQ doesn't drop below 50 for it to happen.



cctr9 said:


> @Crimson Flam3s .
> I don't get you Kakashi supporters .
> If he outpeformed and " schooled " Kaguya , that means by your logic he's also stronger than her . And stronger than Rikudo Sennin as well .
> 
> Where do you guys draw the line here ??????????


Kakashi's not stronger than her. However, his successful maneuver against her shouldn't be discarded on that basis; it's still legit. She's what everyone, save Madara haters, realized soon after her appearance: incredibly stupid, and severely lacking in fighting capacity. He's just a better fighter in comparison to her, Naruto and Sasuke — and the author aptly depicted that. Remember Black Zetsu's "An expert with a stone can beat a novice with a shuriken"? The expert was manifest in Kakashi.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Don't ask me. Instead ask Kishimoto instead why he gave Kakashi those feats. The Manga clearly showed him dealing with the giant arms without taking a sweat while Naruto and Sasuke were almost getting reked by them, had him strike Kaguya, on the words of your boy naruto a "cooler susanoo", Kamui shurikens which cannot be blocked by anything etc etc and all of this performance against a much stronger version of Kaguya per Zetsu.
> 
> Eventually you  have to get around handling the facts.


Remember, Kishimoto's nonsense is valid in specific-cases only; subject to the readers' bias. Here, he seems to write coherently, so Kakashi can't be what Kakashi supporters would like to think. 



cctr9 said:


> What facts ?
> Naruto's feats alone takes a big dump on Kakashi Lmao , who smacked her to a mountain ? who did punched her in the face ? who nuked her with 9 FRS ?? who held her back all the time while they were saving Sasuke ?? who did clone feinted her and BZ twice ?? who did speedblitzed her with no reaction whatsoever ??? who did cut off her arm completely , who did rect to her Y-Hirasaka point balnk from behind and was praised for his reactions by BZ ???
> Yet somehow Kakashi did better for one Raikiri and 4 Shurikens ?? :
> Naruto hit her more than 12 time , while Kakashi is getting wanked by his fans for one Raikiri


Can't keep up, huh? His first response specifically highlighted that Kakashi landed a hit on Kaguya, who's outright stated to be on an entirely different realm of strength and speed than before; effectively makes Naruto 12+ hits insignificant to Kakashi's 1. If anything at all, it means that Kakashi would have it easier, when she was in a much weaker state... 

... Kishimoto's typical style. It's no different from Naruto-Sasuke vs one-eyed Juubidara, when the latter became the punching bag for the demonstration of their new powers. Kaguya extended them the same courtesy. Villain gets power - Hero owned; Hero gets power - Villain owned...



cctr9 said:


> Let's be real here , a guy with a Rinnegan and all of Hago's shadow chakra >>>>>>>>>> a guy with MS and a small portion of low quality Six paths chakra .


Eh, we have low-med-high quality of Six Paths chakra now? 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Kamui isnt a wormhole, its a barrier ninjutsu that can have its range specified by the user, barrier ninjutsu =chakra construct=can be absorbed by preta. Pretty sure this is in the third databook, i have no idea where to find databook scans otherwise i would post it here.
> Sasuke could create a preta barrier around his entire forearm when he was the definition of exhausted after fighting naruto for 24 straight hours, so just scale up for full stamina and its obvious he can cover himself with a barrier, mads could do it when he was an edo, and its stated many times that an edo rinnegan isnt as complete or as powerful as a true rinnegan, mads also doesnt have rikudo chakra, nagato could do it and the rinnegan wasnt even originally his, and he also didnt have rikudo chakra. But if that doesnt work for you in the beginning of the VOTE 2 fight he could also drain the chakra from the nine tailed beasts while they were inside meteors, considering no other rinnegan ability absorbs chakra, its a safe bet he used preta to do that.


Kamui's barrier-space should have been negated by Gudoudama; it wasn't. Gudoudama > Preta Path.



Max Thunder said:


> Counter to phasing -1 Kakashi's power lasts for an impressive 2 minutes.
> 2 - Kamui users have to be tangible to hit an enemy.
> 3 - Users can only be intangible for 5 minutes at a time, which is longer than Kakahi's DMS even last


You know you have conceded to Kakashi's superiority, if the point of contention is the time-limit. I usually assume, there's no limit, since the purpose is to see how their abilities are stacked against each other's – and the purpose is lost.



> Also please provide a scan for where it states that phasing happens 'automatically' because I don't remember that ever being said.


You can't be serious [2].

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 21, 2016)

LOL at Preta Path negating Kamui! 

Is this is the same Kamui that warped a hole in truth-seeker ball shield, which is confirmed to negate all ninjutsu?

Preta couldn't even absorb Susano'o, of which it should be logically capable of.

S/T ninjutsu laughs at any and all attempts to be absorbed by Preta Path.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Max Thunder (Oct 21, 2016)

Hasan said:


> You know you have conceded to Kakashi's superiority, if the point of contention is the time-limit. I usually assume, there's no limit, since the purpose is to see how their abilities are stacked against each other's – and the purpose is lost.



What a silly little way to twist the argument, without actually contesting against any of the points I made. Who's conceding here?



> You can't be serious [2].



Thanks for proving me right.

This doesn't imply it happens automatically.

Automatic activation would mean the jutsu activating off it's own accord like it can sense danger and activate by itself just before contact rather than said jutsu being casted by the user unknowingly.


----------



## Ayala (Oct 21, 2016)

Max Thunder said:


> What a silly little way to twist the argument, without actually contesting against any of the points I made. Who's conceding here?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The databook description says it activates even uncounsciously


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 21, 2016)

Max Thunder said:


> What a silly little way to twist the argument, without actually contesting against any of the points I made. Who's conceding here?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your points aren't even worth contending, because they're full of holes and ridiculous scenarios that, for example, it's laughable to think Sasuke can continuously hurl attacks at Kakashi for _5 min. straight_.

You also apply a fanfic time limit of 2 min., which has *no basis* since we have no time indication of how long the fight lasted - from Kaguya stabilizing into her perfect form to the Six Paths CT working its magic and sealing her entirely. That could very well be over an hour, which is more than enough time to decide the outcome of the fight.

Finally, just to lay it out:


The right eye allows 'unconscious' transfer of body parts into the other dimension. Meaning all Kakashi needs to do is *think* and he's pretty much intangible. It's a mental switch. Evident by Obito's usage, and in line with the databook. So yes, it does happen automatically in a sense.


----------



## Max Thunder (Oct 21, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Your points aren't even worth contending, because they're full of holes and ridiculous scenarios that, for example, it's laughable to think Sasuke can continuously hurl attacks at Kakashi for _5 min. straight_.



Did it not work with Konan against Obito?
Except Sasuke is a lot stronger than Konan and Kakashi isn't better than Obito at phasing.



> *You also apply a fanfic time limit of 2 min., which has no basis since we have no time indication of how long the fight lasted - from Kaguya stabilizing into her perfect form to the Six Paths CT working its magic and sealing her entirely. That could very well be over an hour, which is more than enough time to decide the outcome of the fight.*



LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Over an hour now LOOOOOOOOL

Fucking hell. Just goes to show how much you ninjas reach out here 



> Finally, just to lay it out:
> 
> 
> The right eye allows 'unconscious' transfer of body parts into the other dimension. Meaning all Kakashi needs to do is *think* and he's pretty much intangible. It's a mental switch. Evident by Obito's usage, and in line with the databook. So yes, it does happen automatically in a sense.



Yeah, '*thinking'* takes considerable time in the greater scope of things. Such as *instantaneous* warping...


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Oct 21, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> The same genjusu that lolstomps the tailed beasts is going to get dispelled by a tailed beast? lol
> 
> Also wasn't naruto placed under genjutsu in the last?
> 
> His genjutsu was powerful indeed but given the history of Tailed beasts having a weakness against any sharingan/rinnegan genjutsu, I'm inclined to say this genjutsu only applies against the tailed beasts. How many times has he used it besides that one time without mentioning that attempting it against naruto would have given him a chance to kill him as it takes a few moments to be dispelled just like it happened with bee.


1. Genjutsu still affects perfect jins, but they shrug it off, the biju within them dispels it asap, not instantly, either way this is moot, kakashi isnt a perfect jin, genjutsu on the level of 1 shotting 9 biju simultaneously will one shot him just fine.

2. What feats does kakashi have of him vs genjutsu? Aside from tsukuyomi literally putting him into a coma that is? Suggesting kakashi can resist a genjutsu that knocked out 9 bijus with a glance and impressed the rikudo sennin is laughable.

3. Sasuke used his genjutsu on sakura and she was out for at least 24 hours with kakashi unable to wake her up, proving he can genjutsu people as well as biju, and while i doubt this is worth much, the entire series we have had it thrown in our face how suited sakura was for dealing with genjutsu and whatnot, kakashi has no such hype, but like i said, even i do dont put much stock in this.


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Again the barrier is not made of chakra, otherwise any part of that barrier would have been negated the moment it came into the tsb's contact.


Fair enough i guess, i still would say it could absorb it but assuming it cannot it still doesnt matter, Ameno can get sasuke out of kamuis dimensional warp, as shown on panel, teleportation is a very valid defense against kamui.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Or maybe he just doesn't have much prowess using preta path. He had plenty of chances to use that technique thought the fight, and it did not come into play until the end.
> 
> If his chakra absorption worked like it did with the tailed beasts as you suggest then he could have literally stand still and wirelessly absorb every single one of naruto's attack without moving a finger.


See above.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Any proof that sasuke can make any projectiles that could possibly "clash" with the kamui shurikens?


Susanoo arrows stalemate TSBs, they are more than sufficient to handle kamui shuriken. Sasuke can also play baseball with the shuriken using his PS sword, the shuriken would hit the sword, and get rid of some of it but leave sasuke 100% unharmed. Sasuke could also use ameno to switch himself with another shuriken and make 2 collide with each other when one is about to hit him, wouldnt that be interesting to see...kamui shurken vs kamui shuriken...where do they go?



Crimson Flam3s said:


> sasuke has only shown he can handle 3 in quick succesion,


How do you figure this? He fires 3 arrows at naruto here to stalemate TSBs, and then ups his susanoo all the way to PS, PS>>>>>a 4th susanoo arrow in terms of strain, he could easily fire a 4th arrow if he wanted too, and if we are playing this game, how many shuriken does kakashi get the entire fight? Any proof he isnt limited to four?



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Any minuscule enton projectile sasuke comes up with makes no difference to these shuriken once they are thrown.



Does this look miniscule to you?


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Still see no counter to phasing ability that's not even dependent on reactions and activates automatically.


Phasing activates automatically???


----------



## Android (Oct 21, 2016)

I still don't see any counter for Sasuke's Rinnegan genjutsu which doesn't need eye-eye contact .


----------



## Ayala (Oct 21, 2016)

Unless Obito can react to blindside gates kick or blindside raikiri kunai (where people were losing their shit wondering how Pain could react to something he couldn't see), then the phasing is even uncounscious. Not to mention how Kamui didn't even let Madara touch him


----------



## Hasan (Oct 21, 2016)

Max Thunder said:


> What a silly little way to twist the argument, without actually contesting against any of the points I made. Who's conceding here?


You postulated time-out as a countermeasure to Right-Eye Kamui; if the opponent has to wait for the powers to expire, then it's conceding that he (or she) has no legitimate workaround the said ability. If there were any, you would have asserted them the first time around.



> Thanks for proving me right.
> 
> This doesn't imply it happens automatically.
> 
> Automatic activation would mean the jutsu activating off it's own accord like it can sense danger and activate by itself just before contact rather than said jutsu being casted by the user unknowingly.


The user consciously de-activates it to materialize. So, yes; it's automatic in the sense that the defense mechanism is always active. What relevance does your definition has, regarding the battle?



cctr9 said:


> I still don't see any counter for Sasuke's Rinnegan genjutsu which doesn't need eye-eye contact .


Sharingan has built-in mechanism to deal with genjutsu; higher stages should imply greater resistance, and Kakashi's was further enhanced by the Six Paths chakra. Subduing Bijuu is one of the Mangekyou Sharingan's abilities; the Rinnegan genjutsu seems like the same application on a wider scale. Eye contact isn't an issue.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Android (Oct 21, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Sharingan has built-in mechanism to deal with genjutsu; higher stages should imply greater resistance, and Kakashi's was further enhanced by the Six Paths chakra. Subduing Bijuu is one of the Mangekyou Sharingan's abilities; the Rinnegan genjutsu seems like the same application on a wider scale. Eye contact isn't an issue.


No , it's not , Sasuke's Dojutsu is 2 steps ahead of Kakashi's . The Last guidbook hypes his genjutsu to a ridiculous level . And then there's the fact that Sasuke stated that to undo a Rinnegan genjutsu , you need a Rinnegan . Sasuke's Dojutsu is far more powerful and enhanced by a much potent chakra . Kakashi isn't breaking it with just MS .


----------



## S (Oct 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I still don't see any counter for Sasuke's Rinnegan genjutsu which doesn't need eye-eye contact .


I can see this would be an good option to deal with Kakashi but i highly doubt it would work though. A double ms user with rikodou chakra falling to genjutsu is hard to imagine..well much better option than overpowering Kakashi lol

I think the best way to deal with Kakashi is just to outlast him, not because he is stronger than Sasuke, it's just the damn Kamui makes him very hard to kill. We know Kakashi can react to Kaguya and for some extent blitz her, so that means he can react to Sasuke's speed at least (unless Sasuke is much faster then Kaguya) and catch him by a suprise long range Kamui.

The way i see it is, Sasuke is overall stronger but can fall to Kamui if he is not careful.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> No , it's not , Sasuke's Dojutsu is 2 steps ahead of Kakashi's . The Last guidbook hypes his genjutsu to a ridiculous level .


Databooks/Guidebooks have a way with words. Now, I'm not doubting his genjutsu capability, but having "unparalleled ____" (fill in the blank) is a common phrase occuring throughout such books. I don't believe it's meant to be taken in the absolute literal sense, or at least it helps to know where the upper limit lies.



> And then there's the fact that Sasuke stated that to undo a Rinnegan genjutsu , you need a Rinnegan .


I'm quite sure, it was stated in relation to the Mugen Tsukuyomi.



> Sasuke's Dojutsu is far more powerful and enhanced by a much potent chakra .


They both have the Six Paths chakra.



> Kakashi isn't breaking it with just MS .


Mangekyou Sharingan empowered with Six Paths chakra.


----------



## Max Thunder (Oct 21, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Right, because Sasuke has prepped a paper ocean before this hypothetical fight even began.  you do know that outside of that, this weakness (assuming Six Paths chakra doesn't circumvent or extend the limit) has never been exposed before?
> 
> Fuck, where do you even get off thinking Sasuke will continuous launch streams of nukes at Kakashi, when this is not even IC and will never be a viable option as he wastes stamina while Kakashi does little to nothing just phasing through all of them?



I like how you bring up stamina for Sasuke like that's not a bigger issue for Kakashi 

Kakashi's stamina sucks and yet you bring it up as an argument as if to say Sasuke would ever run out of stamina before Kakashi.

Your fanboyism is ridiculous.




> I'm just going to take this from an old post of mine.



Yeah what a shitpost. So what?

Kakashi isn't better than Obito at phasing. Deal with it. I never said he wasn't as good.




> Way to avoid the point of contention. You can say two minutes, I can say one hour and you cannot refute it at all. The truth of the matter is, you have no basis on how long this fight really lasted, other than Kakashi's on a timer.



No you can say it was 2 mins, 15 mins max, never an hour.

Your argument is fallacious.

You're making ridiculous claims just for the sake of being argumentative, it makes you look a bit.... 

Silly.




> and you think Kakashi will just drop 50 IQ points and let himself be tangible to an attack. _"The left eye hurls distant objects into the dimension by fixating them."_ Where was the instantaneous warping when Kaguya dragged Sasuke into her sand dimension?



So Kakashi won't ever go tangible to attack then?

Okay so Kakashi is just going to sit there spamming all 4 of his possible Kamui or Shuriken(while Sasuke dodges them) before running out stamina? 

How do you seriously think this fight will go other than it ending instantaneously with a Rinne Genjutsu/Ameno



Hasan said:


> You postulated time-out as a countermeasure to Right-Eye Kamui; if the opponent has to wait for the powers to expire, then it's conceding that he (or she) has no legitimate workaround the said ability. If there were any, you would have asserted them the first time around.



First of all there were other points I brought up as workarounds.

Secondly, it's a realistic workaround in the context of the manga not to mention that the OP never specified if there was a time limit or not you're just salty that what I said is true, so you twist the argument instead of contesting it.

Biased much?



> The user consciously de-activates it to materialize. So, yes; it's automatic in the sense that the defense mechanism is always active. What relevance does your definition has, regarding the battle?



You're insinuating that Kakashi can phase and is therefore immune to any physical attack 'just because (defense mechanism is always active lol)' which is ridiculous and not true.

He wouldn't be able to avoid or phase through an unforeseeable or unprecedented attack if it happened instantaneously.

The bias in this thread is cancerous.

It's easy to see why most arguments are swinging in a particular direction just by looking at avatars...


----------



## Android (Oct 21, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Databooks/Guidebooks have a way with words. Now, I'm not doubting his genjutsu capability, but having "unparalleled ____" (fill in the blank) is a common phrase occuring throughout such books. I don't believe it's meant to be taken in the absolute literal sense, or at least it helps to know where the upper limit lies.


With all due respect , whether you think his genjutsu did or didn't live up to his hype doesn't really matter , a genjutsu from the second strongest Dojutsu in the manga , a genjutsu makes rikudo sennin's jaw drop isn't gonna be resisted by a mere MS .


Hasan said:


> I'm quite sure, it was stated in relation to the Mugen Tsukuyomi.


A genjutsu that can only be resisted by a Rinnegan , and undo by a Rinnegan that is . Only proves further that Kakashi's MS is not gonna stand up in a genjutsu battle with Sasuke's Rinnegan .


Hasan said:


> They both have the Six Paths chakra.


Sasuke has way more chakra , from rikudo sennin himself , on top of his own Uchiha chakra and Indra's chakra , and of course , a much superior Dojutsu .


Hasan said:


> Mangekyou Sharingan empowered with Six Paths chakra.


And 2 steps behind Sasuke's Rinnegan .


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 21, 2016)

Max Thunder said:


> I like how you bring up stamina for Sasuke like that's not a bigger issue for Kakashi
> 
> Kakashi's stamina sucks and yet you bring it up as an argument as if to say Sasuke would ever run out of stamina before Kakashi.
> 
> ...



 "Kakashi's stamina sucks" yeah, that's exactly why he was able to use *Perfect Susano'o *as soon as he got DMS and several Kamuis/Raikiris well before that incident.

You claiming Sasuke can continuously attack for 5 min. is far, far more ridiculous and even laughable. If you read the manga properly then you would understand why that will *never* work without prep. 

I can safely assume Kakashi will be just as proficient with his right eye Kamui as he is with his left, because not only does he know the mechanics of Kamui and was a Kamui wielder himself, he immediately mastered Susano'o straight off the bat.

And that's far, far more logical than it is to say Sasuke can deal a barrage of attacks that will keep Kakashi's intangibility active for more than 5 min.



> No you can say it was 2 mins, 15 mins max, never an hour.
> 
> Your argument is fallacious.
> 
> ...



I'm just dealing with incompetent debaters like you who say dumb shit like 2, 15 min MAX. Do you know what a fallacious argument is?

It's you claiming 15 min. MAX when you don't even have a slight clue of how long the battle lasted.

I gave you *one hour* to counteract your equally ridiculous claim of *2 min*.

Now either you concede you have no idea what you're talking about when you spit out exact numbers for Kakashi's time frame or GTFO.



> So Kakashi won't ever go tangible to attack then?
> 
> Okay so Kakashi is just going to sit there spamming all 4 of his possible Kamui or Shuriken(while Sasuke dodges them) before running out stamina?
> 
> How do you seriously think this fight will go other than it ending instantaneously with a Rinne Genjutsu/Ameno



 because Sasuke can end the fight instantaneously to someone who pressured a stronger, faster form of Kaguya? While he got mollywhooped to another dimension himself in the first place?

Look boy, I agree that Sasuke wins in this match-up, but only because Kakashi's on a time frame. However, there's also a chance that Sasuke can take a trip to the boxland resorts due to Kakashi's superior tactical prowess and skill in deception. That's what happens when you put the most hax pair of eyes in the entire manga into one of the best minds and empower it with Six Paths chakra.



> The bias in this thread is cancerous.
> 
> It's easy to see why most arguments are swinging in a particular direction just by looking at avatars...



Nice comeback. You know you're out of arguments when you have to ad hominem just to save some face, especially when the "fanboys" sound more logical and more sensible than your fallacious mouth.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Android (Oct 21, 2016)

Here's another one 

A battle of susanoo happened , Kakashi's susanoo gets gutted with a Chidori and gets overpowered with Sasuke's own which was strong enuff to match a six path sage mode enhanced Kyuubi .
Now abviously Kakashi's gonna survive that battle of susanoo thanks to Kamui , but he won't be able to use his susanoo again . While Sasuke is chilling in his susanoo .

What's Kakashi gonna do now ?


----------



## Max Thunder (Oct 21, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> "Kakashi's stamina sucks" yeah, that's exactly why he was able to use *Perfect Susano'o *as soon as he got DMS and several Kamuis/Raikiris well before that incident.



And that's the extent of his abilities seen as he lost his power after that lol

Much stamina
Much wow




> You claiming Sasuke can continuously attack for 5 min. is far, far more ridiculous and even laughable. If you read the manga properly then you would understand why that will *never* work without prep.



It really isn't seen as Sasuke can just spawn arrow after arrow while sitting inside Susano
Kakashi has to either phase or Kamui them to counteract...



> I can safely assume Kakashi will be just as proficient with his right eye Kamui as he is with his left, because not only does he know the mechanics of Kamui and was a Kamui wielder himself, he immediately mastered Susano'o straight off the bat.



Doesn't matter if he mastered Susano because that has nothing to do with proficiency with Kamui.

Also, Obito with DMS would be > DMS Kakashi for obvious reasons so how do you explain Kakashi is as proficient as Obito exactly?

Without coming up with an argument that has the equal value of the dog shit?



> And that's far, far more logical than it is to say Sasuke can deal a barrage of attacks that will keep Kakashi's intangibility active for more than 5 min.



no it isn't



> I'm just dealing with incompetent debaters like you who say dumb shit like 2, 15 min MAX. Do you know what a fallacious argument is?
> 
> It's you claiming 15 min. MAX when you don't even have a slight clue of how long the battle lasted.
> 
> ...



Yes I do know what it is why are you asking me?

Except if you read the manga you can see that the events happen in a quick chronological order. Or do you see the characters waiting for a long time?

Unless you're suggesting a long time goes past in each consequent panel? Then if the fight lasted one hour  you are also admitting that Kakashi is a lot slower than you're claiming him to be to be able to keep up with instant warping?

See how ridiculous you sound?

You desperately asking me to concede just makes you look...

Sillier.

Take the L.




> because Sasuke can end the fight instantaneously to someone who pressured a stronger, faster form of Kaguya? While he got mollywhooped to another dimension himself in the first place?
> 
> Look boy, I agree that Sasuke wins in this match-up, but only because Kakashi's on a time frame. However, there's also a chance that Sasuke can take a trip to the boxland resorts due to Kakashi's superior tactical prowess and skill in deception. That's what happens when you put the most hax pair of eyes in the entire manga into one of the best minds and empower it with Six Paths chakra.



Yeah use a common enemy to try and dissuade the argument but it doesn't work because Kaguya's fight was full of PIS...

Kakashi has no answer for Rinne Genjutsu or Ameno so unfortunately for you, until you come up with viable counter measurements against these abilities that is exactly how the fight will go down. 




> Nice comeback. You know you're out of arguments when you have to ad hominem just to save some face, especially when the "fanboys" sound more logical and more sensible than your fallacious mouth.



It's not an ad hominem it's just an accurate observation of the events transpired in this thread.

The more you keep replying with ridiculous arguments, the more you keep proving my point.


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 21, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> 1. Genjutsu still affects perfect jins, but they shrug it off, the biju within them dispels it asap, not instantly, either way this is moot, kakashi isnt a perfect jin, genjutsu on the level of 1 shotting 9 biju simultaneously will one shot him just fine.



That majestic powerful genjutsu is only useful against tailed beats who already have a weakness against sharingan genjutsu, let's not mention an evolved form of the sharinnegan.

I don't even have to prove anything, the facts speak for themselves, when did sasuke ever use this genjutsu again? He had plenty of chances in the gaiden and the movies against people who were not rinnegan users thus not having what it takes to dispel this powerful out worldly spell.



> 2. What feats does kakashi have of him vs genjutsu? Aside from tsukuyomi literally putting him into a coma that is? Suggesting kakashi can resist a genjutsu that knocked out 9 bijus with a glance and impressed the rikudo sennin is laughable.



Kakashi's 3 tomoe sharingan genjutsu was powerful enough to make Gai create a fighting style centered around avoiding it, and made Itachi resort to MS immediately in order to defeat it.

Part 2 Kakashi with MS gave no fucks about Tsukuyomi, which goes along with itachi mentioning that an MS was needed to cancel it.

Then we have his genjutsu battle against one of the best users such as obito and matching perfectly.

Scale that up to dual ms plus rikudou chakra and well, there is not much that sasuke's worthless tailed beast tailored genjutsu can do.



> 3. Sasuke used his genjutsu on sakura and she was out for at least 24 hours with kakashi unable to wake her up, proving he can genjutsu people as well as biju, and while i doubt this is worth much, the entire series we have had it thrown in our face how suited sakura was for dealing with genjutsu and whatnot, kakashi has no such hype, but like i said, even i do dont put much stock in this.



Sakura? The same person that always gets rekked by genjutsu, specially if it's sasuke related? lol fair enough.



> Fair enough i guess, i still would say it could absorb it but assuming it cannot it still doesnt matter, Ameno can get sasuke out of kamuis dimensional warp, as shown on panel, teleportation is a very valid defense against kamui.



I agree, Ameno can help sasuke escape kamui, but I believe that it would be hard to find an item to switch with when suddenly a swirling vortex to another dimension appears in front of his face in a fraction of an instant. He could probably escape a kamui shuriken if it striked nearby, he would have a chance while it's still expanding, but not a direct hit.



> Susanoo arrows stalemate TSBs, they are more than sufficient to handle kamui shuriken. Sasuke can also play baseball with the shuriken using his PS sword, the shuriken would hit the sword, and get rid of some of it but leave sasuke 100% unharmed. Sasuke could also use ameno to switch himself with another shuriken and make 2 collide with each other when one is about to hit him, wouldnt that be interesting to see...kamui shurken vs kamui shuriken...where do they go?



You are correct here, a susano arrow is probably enough to stalemate a shuriken given sasuke's proficiency with it, unfortunately it's a battle of numbers and kakashi has shown he can throw more simultaneously. I'm not talking about either one of them having a limit but about the amount they have shown to shoot simultaneously.

Also a Kamui shuriken hitting even the sword would be devastating as the warp zone expands greatly and covers a lot more than the shuriken size itself, which is already pretty sizeable compared to a susano. as shown on panel, teleportation is a very valid defense against kamui.



> Phasing activates automatically???



Obito consciously became solid to attack. Why are your arguing something that was already proven in the manga multiple times?

Finally let's see the level of speed that a dual sm kamui snipe possesses .
as shown on panel, teleportation is a very valid defense against kamui.
as shown on panel, teleportation is a very valid defense against kamui.

Being able to snipe the projectile that was blitzing Naruto and Sasuke while freefalling seems like a pretty good feat.

GG 8/10 nice try.

You know what would be funny though? Kakashi initiating a Kamui snipe and sasuke using Ameno to switch with him and we are left with a headless kakashi. Kamuiception. GG beat myself in my own argument.


----------



## Android (Oct 21, 2016)

By @Crimson Flam3s logic :


Crimson Flam3s said:


> when did sasuke ever use this genjutsu again? He had plenty of chances in the gaiden and the movies against people who were not rinnegan users thus not having what it takes to dispel this powerful out worldly spell.



Sasuke didn't use susanoo against Shin or Kinshiki , so that must mean his susanoo would've been useless against them 
Sasuke never used Kirin again , so that must mean it's not strong .


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Oct 21, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> That majestic powerful genjutsu is only useful against tailed beats who already have a weakness against sharingan genjutsu, let's not mention an evolved form of the sharinnegan.


Kakashi has 0 feats that would put him above the biju when it comes to resisting genjutsu, and suggesting the genjutsu is tailor made for biju is baseless, considering sasuke used rinnegan genjutsu on sakura, meaning rinnegan genjutsu affects kakashi as well. 



Crimson Flam3s said:


> I don't even have to prove anything, the facts speak for themselves, when did sasuke ever use this genjutsu again?


Against sakura, and kakashi failed to snap her out of it for 24 hours, you most certainly do need to prove things, you can just say "but the biju didnt have MS or a piece of rikudo chakra but kakashi does so he can fight it off" literally nothing even remotely implies kakashi can resist a genjutsu on the level of subduing 9 tailed beasts simultaneously, you claim he can, so you must provide proof. 



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Kakashi's 3 tomoe sharingan genjutsu was powerful enough to make Gai create a fighting style centered around avoiding it, and made Itachi resort to MS immediately in order to defeat it.


This is hype, not feats of kakashi resisting genjutsu, itachi also never used MS to counter kakashis 3T genjutsu, where did you pull this from?



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Part 2 Kakashi with MS gave no fucks about Tsukuyomi, which goes along with itachi mentioning that an MS was needed to cancel it.


When did kakashi post time skip ever go up against tsukuyomi? oh thats right...never, literally not even one time.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Then we have his genjutsu battle against one of the best users such as obito and matching perfectly.


Obito is featless and hypeless in genjutsu outside of his fight with kakashi, kakashi matching him means exactly nothing.


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Scale that up to dual ms plus rikudou chakra and well, there is not much that sasuke's worthless tailed beast tailored genjutsu can do.


Sasuke has EMS which is more powerful than MS, rinnegan which is more powerful than EMS, and way more rikudo chakra than kakashi, and way more chakra pre rikudo amp, so if we scale up, kakashi gets shat on. 

"Tailed beast tailored genjutsu" that kakashi couldnt undo when it was cast on a human being for over 24 hours...


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Sakura? The same person that always gets rekked by genjutsu, specially if it's sasuke related? lol fair enough.


I only brought sakura up as an example of sasuke using rinnegan genjutsu on something other than a biju, you claimed his rinnegan genjutsu wouldnt work on non biju and i provided a scan that says otherwise.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> but I believe that it would be hard to find an item to switch with when suddenly a swirling vortex to another dimension appears in front of his face in a fraction of an instant.


Hes never had a problem switching places at the last second before.


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Obito consciously became solid to attack. Why are your arguing something that was already proven in the manga multiple times?


Im arguing that kamui has been outflanked by teleportation before and sasuke can teleport, and if kamui activated automatically as you claim, minato would have been unable to hit him the way he did.


----------



## Ayala (Oct 21, 2016)

Obito put the nine tails and the three tails in genjutsu, but he was matched back by Kakashi. Madara did the same with Kurama, but he didn't do it to Hashirama for example.


----------



## Android (Oct 21, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> but he didn't do it to Hashirama for example.


Dat sage mode power up


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Oct 21, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> Obito put the nine tails and the three tails in genjutsu, but he was matched back by Kakashi.


And sasuke did it to all 9 biju with but a glance simultaneously, thats a tad more impressive than the nine tails 1st, and then the three tails like 16 years later.


----------



## Ayala (Oct 21, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And sasuke did it to all 9 biju with but a glance simultaneously, thats a tad more impressive than the nine tails 1st, and then the three tails like 16 years later.



What im saying is that the fact that said genjutsu worked on the tailed beast doesn't mean it works on Rikudo Kakashi.


----------



## Android (Oct 21, 2016)

Rinnegan >>> Mangekyo Sharingan . So it can and it will work on Kakashi . No reason to assume it won't .

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Oct 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Rinnegan >>> Mangekyo Sharingan . So it can and it will work on Kakashi . No reason to assume it won't .


Add to that sasuke is an uchiha by blood, has greater rikudo chakra than kakashi, and had greater and more potent chakra than kakashi to begin with. His genjutsu floors kakashi.


----------



## Ayala (Oct 21, 2016)

First they go by the opinion that Obito is "featless" on genjutsu completely ignoring the manga and that there's no basis Kakashi can hold up against someone who put tailed beast in genjutsu.

Then they change into the "Rinnegan>Mangekyo sharingan argument", or the fact that Sasuke has more chakra than Kakashi. As if any of that matters, Sasuke has more potent chakra than Itachi too, but his genjutsu is nothing compared to him. As if any of that mattered when even with Mangekyo, the best he could hope for was to be able to put Danzo for just an instant under an illusion (Danzo's bare eyes). As if that mattered when Obito (who has Rinnegan) took on Kakashi. As if that mattered when Mangekyo Madara took on Hashirama and couldn't even do shit as far as genjutsu goes. 

People go ways and invent scenarios where Itachi can't even get people in genjutsu, how genjutsu ain't nothing much, but here, no, here it's genjutsu GG. Lol, all i do is laugh at this moment


----------



## Android (Oct 21, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> Then they change into the "Rinnegan>Mangekyo sharingan argument", or the fact that Sasuke has more chakra than Kakashi.


I didn't change anything , that was my first argument .
I never even talked about Obito , at all .


oetsuthebest said:


> As if any of that matters,


I'm sorry , you're saying a Rinnegan powered with all of Hago's six paths power of shadow doesn't matter ?


oetsuthebest said:


> Sasuke has more potent chakra than Itachi too, but his genjutsu is nothing compared to him


They are both Uchiha , both possess the MS , and Itachi's genjutsu won't work on Sasuke anyway .
However , Rinnegan Sasuke would bitchify Itachi with his genjutsu .


----------



## Ayala (Oct 21, 2016)

First they go scenarios where preta absorbs Kamui, then they go scenarios about how Kakashi's kamui won't activate to defend him, then they go scenarios about how Sasuke is gonna keep attacking him for 5 minutes (man what), then at the end, they go "genjutsu who tamed tailed beast who could be tamed by a mere three tomoe" GG.


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 21, 2016)

Max Thunder said:


> And that's the extent of his abilities seen as he lost his power after that lol
> 
> Much stamina
> Much wow
> ...



I usually don't lose my patience with others here, but you really are an incompetent and illogical debater who spews shit like '15 min MAX time limit' or tries to wiggle out of his way crying PIS, without very little to no shred common sense. I'm not going to bother wasting my time with you anymore.

--

As for my opinion on the Rinnegan genjutsu: I really doubt genjutsu GG is going to be the solution in a battle between two Six Paths dojutsu users. Where was Rinnegan genjutsu GG when Shin showed up? When Momoshiki/Kinshiki showed up? In a battle between these two eyes, ultimately it's simply going to come to hax.


----------



## Android (Oct 21, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Where was Rinnegan genjutsu GG when Shin showed up? When Momoshiki/Kinshiki showed up? In a battle between these two eyes, ultimately it's simply going to come to hax.


He simply didn't use it , that's all , just like how he didn't use Susanoo or amaterasu against Kinshiki or Shin . Doesn't mean it would have been useful or that it wasn't strong enuff .
One could also ask , where was Kakashi's kamui against Hidan , Kakuzu , Zabuza , the swordmen ......... etc etc
Not an argument , really .


----------



## Ayala (Oct 21, 2016)

If Obito's mere Sharingan genjutsu could target the jinchuriki without the Bijuu being able to do nothing about it, wonder why didn't Sasuke 's Rinnegan do the same to Naruto and Kurama, that's what i want to know. 

And immagine if Naruto didn't have Kurama, he would just get "genjutsu gg'd" by Sasuke the moment it began. But i feel there's something fishy with all this shit


----------



## Android (Oct 21, 2016)

Genjutsu'in a rikudo senjutsu enhanced perfect jinchuuriki who has the six paths power of light ?
Hell"s no .


----------



## Ayala (Oct 21, 2016)

And Sasuke has the other half, so why should it matter. And considering Sasuke has genjutsud 9 different objectives, 2 shouldn't be all that hard to do at the same time, considering Obito did it.


----------



## Icegaze (Oct 22, 2016)

My money on sasuke here 
This is 1 tough match Up 
These 2 counter each other pretty hard 
Kamui shieuken is trolled by ST
Sasuke ST trolled by kamui Phasing 
Kamui wrap trolled by sasuke ST 
It just keeps going back and forth with  these 2 
I wonder does sasuke need to absorb all the tailed beast to use Indra arrow ? I know he only showed it then just wondering if he has to


----------



## Android (Oct 22, 2016)

I don't get where the hype is coming from 
Obito himself , the original owner of Kamui , favored the Rinnegan over his own damn MS , and the only reason he didn't transplant both Rinnegan was because he couldn't handle it's power .
The man was pissing himself of the idea of Madara getting both eyes .
Kamui isn't cutting it here .


----------



## Ayala (Oct 22, 2016)

Says the manga, where Nagato who has had the Rinnegan the whole life got put off game 5 minutes from the start. 

How you gonna ST away something you can't see, and how will you avoid getting your shit pushed in in the next 5 seconds? If it wasn't for Kamui, Obito wouldn't be handling Naruto, Kakashi and Guy (while making B completely useless) like he did. If it wasn't for the Kakashi's own Kamui, they would never even touch him. And that's his right eye only that permitted him to do all this.

He said "what a bother", proving how Kamui phasing would prove useful even to a god tier.


----------



## Icegaze (Oct 22, 2016)

By sasuke ST I meant S/T
that would counter kamui wrap as that shit is too slow for sasuke instant S/T
Shira tensei trolls kamui shiruken 

I just think 
6 path of pain abilities + sasuke S/T + his MS jutsu 
>> kamui wrap + kamui phase + kamui shiruken

At the start of the match it's unlikely kakashi survives the first ameno used on him


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> He simply didn't use it , that's all , just like how he didn't use Susanoo or amaterasu against Kinshiki or Shin . Doesn't mean it would have been useful or that it wasn't strong enuff .
> One could also ask , where was Kakashi's kamui against Hidan , Kakuzu , Zabuza , the swordmen ......... etc etc
> Not an argument , really .



Ninjutsu was useless against Momoshiki/Kinshiki, never genjutsu.

He didn't use Susano'o/Amaterasu because he couldn't, not because he wouldn't. If he could still use Ameno, then there is no doubt he could've used genjutsu.

Simply put, genjutsu simply just wasn't part of his fighting style after he acquired EMS. Rather than waste time doing genjutsu battle with someone who has also Six Paths eyes, he has better alternatives.

Against Hidan, Kakuzu? He was certainly going to use it at the last minute.

Zabuza + the swordsmen? He didn't need to use it, his squad was clearly handling the situation. Kamui is his trump card, not his bread and butter.

--

Oh boy, are we really now arguing that Obito would've been better off with two Rinnegan instead of his original eye? When it was exactly his left eye that was giving Naruto, Kakashi, Bee, and Guy most of the trouble landing any hits on him?

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Icegaze (Oct 22, 2016)

People are hyping obito feat against KCm naruto + kakashi + base gai and a side lines bee
Didn't 2 rinnegan eyes give itachi + killer bee + KCm naruto just as much trouble ?

As if nagato wouldn't have toyed with team gai the same way


----------



## Android (Oct 22, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Ninjutsu was useless against Momoshiki/Kinshiki, never genjutsu.


I was talking about when he faced Kinshiki at the begining of the movie .
Ninjutsu is only useless against Momoshiki , not Kinshiki .
Sasuke did not know about Momoshiki's ability at first 
Susanoo was NOT useless against Momoshiki as we saw , he got one shotted with a swing of it's blade .

In short , try harder 


LightningForce said:


> He didn't use Susano'o/Amaterasu because he couldn't, not because he wouldn't. If he could still use Ameno, then there is no doubt he could've used genjutsu.


Not even a single Ama/Enton shot against Shin .
Not even a ribcage Susanoo 

In short , try harder 


LightningForce said:


> Simply put, genjutsu simply just wasn't part of his fighting style after he acquired EMS. Rather than waste time doing genjutsu battle with someone who has also Six Paths eyes, he has better alternatives.


He used Genjutsu twice in a singe chapter , whether you think it's a part of his style or not , doesn't really matter .
As " he didn't use that jutsu , so it must mean it's not strong " is not an argument .
The only six paths eye here is the Rinnegan .
I repeat , Kakashi has 
- Mangekyo . a dojutsu 2 stags behind in evolution .
- Small portion of low quality six paths chakra .
Sasuke has :
- A unique Rinnegan , not even a normal Rinnegan , a unique one .
- The six paths power of Shadow .

In short , try harder 


LightningForce said:


> Against Hidan, Kakuzu? He was certainly going to use it at the last minute.


Right 


LightningForce said:


> Zabuza + the swordsmen? He didn't need to use it, his squad was clearly handling the situation. Kamui is his trump card, not his bread and butter.


Right


----------



## Hasan (Oct 22, 2016)

Max Thunder said:


> First of all there were other points I brought up as workarounds.


I left only one, which doesn't qualify as one, unless elaborated: "The user has to materialize, in order to attack" – What am I supposed to make of it? How does Sasuke benefit from this knowledge? You're silent on that.



> Secondly, it's a realistic workaround in the context of the manga not to mention that the OP never specified if there was a time limit or not you're just salty that what I said is true, so you twist the argument instead of contesting it.
> 
> Biased much?


I'd like to think such an assumption is implicit, unless the OP specifies otherwise. Why would one create a thread such as this, and then deny him the chance to demonstrate those skills properly? 



> You're insinuating that Kakashi can phase and is therefore immune to any physical attack 'just because (defense mechanism is always active lol)' which is ridiculous and not true.


I'm not insinuating anything; Right-eye Kamui functions as such: Kakashi's expression clearly indicate, he didn't activate the jutsu... and Kaguya's attack was extremely fast.



> He wouldn't be able to avoid or phase through an unforeseeable or unprecedented attack if it happened instantaneously.


... Provided the condition of materialization is true. If not, these instantaneous attacks would fail. Minato had to infer, based on the circumstances, that Obito would materialize at a precise moment; he capitalized on that. By itself, the eye presents no visual cues concerning the user's intention, and both Kakashi and Obito have faked attacks to throw their opponents off-guard. So, no - it's not that easy.



cctr9 said:


> With all due respect , whether you think his genjutsu did or didn't live up to his hype doesn't really matter , a genjutsu from the second strongest Dojutsu in the manga , a genjutsu makes rikudo sennin's jaw drop isn't gonna be resisted by a mere MS .



... Sorry for the delayed response; Was digging up old discussions on doujutsu: It's the stock _Genjutsu: Sharingan_ utilized through the Rinnegan (same way he utilizes Kagatsuchi) — seems to be agreed upon by majority [,  — _There are other threads, but wouldn't like to post them all..._].

I only said, some common sense should be applied, which has been a rule (concerning such books) since forever. Sasuke did nothing which hasn't been done by a Sharingan-wielder before, and Hagoromo's surprise is clearly expressed: "All of them... in a single glance..." i.e. has nothing to do with how powerful the genjutsu is. Scope ≠ Effectiveness. I'm not saying it isn't powerful, but Hagoromo isn't saying that.



> A genjutsu that can only be resisted by a Rinnegan , and undo by a Rinnegan that is . Only proves further that Kakashi's MS is not gonna stand up in a genjutsu battle with Sasuke's Rinnegan .


Mugen Tsukuyomi is powered by the collective chakra of all nine bijuu, and it was undone with help from Naruto; Sasuke can't do it by himself. Furthermore, Hagoromo also referred to it as a power of Sharingan; and Madara's demonstration shows it's a regular genjutsu pumped with Juubi's chakra to extend its reach. Seems as if Six Paths chakra is widening the scope.

If it's enhancing the genjutsu (I agree), then it's only reasonable to assume it enhances defense as well. Basically, it's generic Sharingan Genjutsu on Six Path steroids vs. Built-in genjutsu defense on Six Path steroids; I don't see any reason why Kakashi can't deal with it.



> Sasuke has way more chakra , from rikudo sennin himself , on top of his own Uchiha chakra and Indra's chakra , and of course , a much superior Dojutsu .


Qualitatively, the same. None, which you listed, has any relevance – concerning potency. Hagoromo personally handing over Six Paths chakra isn't more potent than the Six Paths chakra gained through the Juubi, which is the source of Hagoromo's chakra as well. 



> And 2 steps behind Sasuke's Rinnegan .


We all know the (Eien no) Mangekyou Sharingan can't access the Six Paths Technique (and Limbo, Amenotejikara etc.) - our contention is only one area, though.


----------



## Android (Oct 22, 2016)

I can't debate with 8 different people , in 5 different threads , in 3 different sections , while chating with 3 different people on PM 

This is too much for me


----------



## Ayala (Oct 22, 2016)

Cctr9 goes answering to everysingle damn thread to people's answers, and then complains about how he can't handle all of them... 1 world NBD user problems, tell about that drama

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## Android (Oct 22, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> Cctr9 goes answering to everysingle damn thread to people's answers, and then complains about how he can't handle all of them... 1 world NBD user problems, tell about that drama


There's no capital C in cctr9 . Thanks for the support tho .

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> People are hyping obito feat against KCm naruto + kakashi + base gai and a side lines bee
> Didn't 2 rinnegan eyes give itachi + killer bee + KCm naruto just as much trouble ?
> 
> As if nagato wouldn't have toyed with team gai the same way



Kamui warping saved Obito from blind spot attacks various times by Guy and Naruto.

Kamui made speed and all flashy moves like TBB useless.

Kamui made Obito nigh-untouchable until Kakashi figured things out.

Bee got wrecked by bigass cursed stakes that came out of the Kamui dimension.

Yet Nagato got wrecked by Itachi not once, but *three times *to MS techniques. The same MS techniques that would give BM Naruto little to no trouble at all to deal with.



cctr9 said:


> I was talking about when he faced Kinshiki at the begining of the movie .
> Ninjutsu is only useless against Momoshiki , not Kinshiki .
> Sasuke did not know about Momoshiki's ability at first
> Susanoo was NOT useless against Momoshiki as we saw , he got one shotted with a swing of it's blade .
> ...



I don't even know where you get off on this "small portion of low quality Six Paths chakra," like that's supposed to be a thing now. 

He has feats of casting it on *Sakura* (of all people) and the tailed beasts who have *natural weakness to dojutsu *(Kurama who falls prey to Sharingan like a bone to a dog), so of course he's casting it on a DMS Kakashi.  

To tell you the truth, dojutsu stages don't mean shit to me. Sharinnegan is the final stage of the Sharingan, yet Kamui is comparable if not better than Yomotsu Hirasaka in a lot of regards. 

Don't respond back if you can't. Your solution is Rinnegan gejutsu GG when we're talking about two Six Paths users here.


----------



## Android (Oct 22, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> I don't even know where you get off on this "small portion of low quality Six Paths chakra," like that's supposed to be a thing now.


A guy using six paths chakra from when he was a Jinchuuriki .
The other one got it directly from the hermit himself , on top of the six paths power of Shadow .
Your thoughts ? 


LightningForce said:


> He has feats of casting it on *Sakura* (of all people) and the tailed beasts who have *natural weakness to dojutsu *(Kurama who falls prey to Sharingan like a bone to a dog), so of course he's casting it on a DMS Kakashi.


And this makes Kakashi immune to genjutsu how exactly ? 
It was stated that Madara uchiha was the only one in the past that could control the Kyuubi , Tobi did the same , but Tobi has literally half of his body composed of Hashiramas cells .
So , if you think Genjutsu'ing Kurama , let alone all the Bijuu at the same time , with a _single glance_ isn't an imprssive , then think again . Hagoromo's jaw drop seeing this feat , this should tell you something .


LightningForce said:


> To tell you the truth, dojutsu stages don't mean shit to me


Concession accepted then .


LightningForce said:


> Sharinnegan


There's no such thing as the Sharinnegan , don't know where the hell do you people get that from 
There's the Rinne Sharingan , which is the eye weilded by the Kaguya , the Juubi , and Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara .


LightningForce said:


> , yet Kamui is comparable if not better than Yomotsu Hirasaka in a lot of regards.


The hell are you talking about ?
Can the Sharingan enslave the whole world with it's genjutsu ?
Can the Sharingan change the world around you ?
Can the Sharingan trap the whole world in Mokuton and suck their chakra dry ?
Can the Sharingan absorb chakra at a planetary level ?
Can the Sharingan turn absorbed chakra into a giant TSB that destroys the world then reshape it , creating new dimensions ?
I didn't think so either , comparing one jutsu to one jutsu , hold no water , it's overall power that matters 


LightningForce said:


> Don't respond back if you can't.


You're stressed 


LightningForce said:


> Your solution is Rinnegan gejutsu GG when we're talking about two Six Paths users here.


There's only one real six paths user here


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Oct 22, 2016)

Ridiculous how this is still going on…

Sasuke eventually bodies him. Kakashi will put up a decent fight but his Duration is detrimental.


----------



## Icegaze (Oct 22, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Kamui warping saved Obito from blind spot attacks various times by Guy and Naruto.
> 
> Kamui made speed and all flashy moves like TBB useless.



you mean kamui phasing..at least get the facts straight. 
ST or preta path would also make TBB useles 



> Kamui made Obito nigh-untouchable until Kakashi figured things out.
> 
> Bee got wrecked by bigass cursed stakes that came out of the Kamui dimension.



i didnt know nagato with his 6 path was touched...bar an itachi surprise attack. not sure what the clowns who attacked obito there would do against nagato in that situation. bee is a joke to nagato though..



> Yet Nagato got wrecked by Itachi not once, but *three times *to MS techniques. The same MS techniques that would give BM Naruto little to no trouble at all to deal with.



3 times....? surprise susanoo attack, and totsuka....whats the 3rd oh you mean amaterasu when nagato thought itachi was a team mate. 





> I don't even know where you get off on this "small portion of low quality Six Paths chakra," like that's supposed to be a thing now.
> 
> He has feats of casting it on *Sakura* (of all people) and the tailed beasts who have *natural weakness to dojutsu *(Kurama who falls prey to Sharingan like a bone to a dog), so of course he's casting it on a DMS Kakashi.
> 
> ...



ameno, as well as other things is what gives sasuke the win


----------



## Max Thunder (Oct 22, 2016)

Hasan said:


> I left only one, which doesn't qualify as one, unless elaborated: "The user has to materialize, in order to attack" – What am I supposed to make of it? How does Sasuke benefit from this knowledge? You're silent on that.



Because he'd just do what Minato did to Obito why in the world would you think he wouldn't benefit from this knowledge?




> I'd like to think such an assumption is implicit, unless the OP specifies otherwise. Why would one create a thread such as this, and then deny him the chance to demonstrate those skills properly?



No it's not implicit. you're making that assumption by yourself.



> I'm not insinuating anything; Right-eye Kamui functions as such: Kakashi's expression clearly indicate, he didn't activate the jutsu... and Kaguya's attack was extremely fast.



You are and no it doesn't matter, the ability isn't automatic.

Otherwise it would have proc'd just before Obito got hit with Minato's Rasengan considering the attack sequence was over as soon as he missed and he would no longer need to be tangible.



> ... Provided the condition of materialization is true. If not, these instantaneous attacks would fail. Minato had to infer, based on the circumstances, that Obito would materialize at a precise moment; he capitalized on that. By itself, the eye presents no visual cues concerning the user's intention, and both Kakashi and Obito have faked attacks to throw their opponents off-guard. So, no - it's not that easy.



Minato hit Obito despite being slower than Sasuke though.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 22, 2016)

Max Thunder said:


> Because he'd just do what Minato did to Obito why in the world would you think he wouldn't benefit from this knowledge?





> Otherwise it would have proc'd just before Obito got hit with Minato's Rasengan considering the attack sequence was over as soon as he missed and he would no longer need to be tangible.





> Minato hit Obito despite being slower than Sasuke though.



*Minato:* _"He makes his body intangible to negate my attacks, but solidifies to counterattack. My only shot is to try and trade hits with him! But attacking at all is a big risk for him. If he can only control the Kyuubi for a short time, *he wouldn't want this fight to drag on.* It comes down to speed; whoever strikes a split-second earlier will win."
_​Obito rushed the fight, because his control over the Kyuubi was short-lived. They were going to end the battle with their next move, which is how Minato knew Obito would materialize to attack him.



> You are and no it doesn't matter, the ability isn't automatic.


Repeating won't get you anywhere; you haven't shown anything in your support. 



> No it's not implicit. you're making that assumption by yourself.


I stand corrected, then.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Max Thunder (Oct 22, 2016)

Hasan said:


> *Minato:* _"He makes his body intangible to negate my attacks, but solidifies to counterattack. My only shot is to try and trade hits with him! But attacking at all is a big risk for him. If he can only control the Kyuubi for a short time, *he wouldn't want this fight to drag on.* It comes down to speed; whoever strikes a split-second earlier will win."
> _​Obito rushed the fight, because his control over the Kyuubi was short-lived. They were going to end the battle with their next move, which is how Minato knew Obito would materialize to attack him.



That contradicts your notion on the functionality of the ability.

As I said if it was automatic it would always proc just before being hit but it didn't
But if Minato made that observation, and acted upon it successfully it means the ability isn't automatic.
Obito's tactics could not possibly have an effect on an ability that is automatic that is contradictory.
How simple do I need to get?


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> A guy using six paths chakra from when he was a Jinchuuriki .
> The other one got it directly from the hermit himself , on top of the six paths power of Shadow .
> Your thoughts ?



And the hermit was not a Ten Tails host to begin with?  The Six Paths Yin Power is a *seal*. Six Paths chakra is Six Paths chakra. There's no distinction. You are clearly reaching.

DMS Kakashi is basically a fusion of Kakashi + Obito who had Six Paths chakra. Clearly it was more than what Obito originally had because he couldn't even manifest Susano'o.



> And this makes Kakashi immune to genjutsu how exactly ?
> It was stated that Madara uchiha was the only one in the past that could control the Kyuubi , Tobi did the same , but Tobi has literally half of his body composed of Hashiramas cells .
> So , if you think Genjutsu'ing Kurama , let alone all the Bijuu at the same time , with a _single glance_ isn't an imprssive , then think again . Hagoromo's jaw drop seeing this feat , this should tell you something .



It's canon that tailed beasts are extremely vulnerable to Sharingan dojutsu. In fact one of the Uchiha secrets is that MS can control and tame the Nine tails.

The range is impressive. That's what Hagoromo was marveling at. I have yet to see any confirmation of the potency of the genjutsu that it GG's anyone who has special chakra. Okay, I guess Rinnegan genjutsu is so strong that it would've also GG'd Naruto who's pretty bad at genjutsu, without Kurama being able to wake him up out of it. Let's keep reaching; the sky's the limit!



> Concession accepted then.



No.



> There's no such thing as the Sharinnegan , don't know where the hell do you people get that from
> There's the Rinne Sharingan , which is the eye weilded by the Kaguya , the Juubi , and Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara .



You know what I'm talking about. Rinnesharingan, Sharinnegan, whatever. No need to get so triggered about the names.



> The hell are you talking about ?
> Can the Sharingan enslave the whole world with it's genjutsu ?
> Can the Sharingan change the world around you ?
> Can the Sharingan trap the whole world in Mokuton and suck their chakra dry ?
> ...



I said dojutsu stages don't mean shit to me. As Black Zetsu said, a tool is only as powerful as the user who wields it. Rinnegan has the most overall capability, that doesn't mean a glance genjutsu is almighty. And even IT required the entire moon to pull off its feat.



> You're stressed





> I can't debate with 8 different people , in 5 different threads , in 3 different sections , while chating with 3 different people on PM
> 
> This is too much for me





> There's only one real six paths user here







Icegaze said:


> you mean kamui phasing..at least get the facts straight.
> ST or preta path would also make TBB useless



My bad. I did mean phasing.

 so now Preta Path can absorb something as dense and big as TBB? I guess Nagato wrecks BM Naruto and TB mode Bee too then.




> i didnt know nagato with his 6 path was touched...bar an itachi surprise attack. not sure what the clowns who attacked obito there would do against nagato in that situation. bee is a joke to nagato though..



Well for starters, Gedo Mazo would be gone thanks to Kakashi so aside from the Moon's Eye plan failing, Bee will join in the gangbang that Nagato/Obito would receive. You also have Guy and Kakashi who have full intel on Rinnegan abilities already, so it would only be a matter of time before Nagato or Obito ate an Afternoon Tiger, Kamui, TBB, or whatever from a team of 1 vs. 4 with no way to phase/cancel these attacks out.






> ameno, as well as other things is what gives sasuke the win



I agree here. But it's not going to be genjutsu GG and it's going to be one hell of a fight.


----------



## Icegaze (Oct 22, 2016)

I guess he does 
Since no reason to believe prêta path can't absorb TBb
That's a strange notion to think it can't


----------



## Android (Oct 22, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> And the hermit was not a Ten Tails host to begin with?


The hermit had the power of the six paths even before becoming the Juubi Jinchuuriki . See Hago and Hamura vs the Juubi 


LightningForce said:


> The Six Paths Yin Power is a *seal*. Six Paths chakra is Six Paths chakra. There's no distinction. You are clearly reaching.


The seal returned to Hago , yet it's chakra still with Sasuke , Hago was low on chakra even after taking back his seals .
Sasuke's ability to sense NE at VotE .


LightningForce said:


> DMS Kakashi is basically a fusion of Kakashi + Obito who had Six Paths chakra. Clearly it was more than what Obito originally had because he couldn't even manifest Susano'o.


Obito was half dead , just used Rinne Tensei , and just got the Bijuu and the Mazo extracted from his body , and you're expecting him to use PS ? lol ok .


LightningForce said:


> It's canon that tailed beasts are extremely vulnerable to Sharingan dojutsu. In fact one of the Uchiha secrets is that MS can control and tame the Nine tails.


Yet you've yet to explain how exactly does this makes Kakashi immune to Sasuke's genjutsu , Bijuu are weak to genjutsu ? well no shit sherlock , but not anyone can genjutsu a Bijuu , manga made it clear that Madara Uchiha was the only one in the past who could control the Kyuubi . Obito did the same , but he had half his body powered with Hashirama's cells , and even then , he could only control it for a short time .


LightningForce said:


> The range is impressive. That's what Hagoromo was marveling at


" All the Bijuu has fallen for his genjutsu , and he managed to do it with just a glance !! "
Lol , reaching much ? 


LightningForce said:


> I have yet to see any confirmation of the potency of the genjutsu that it GG's anyone who has special chakra.


And you've yet to show us any counter from Kakashi to this genjutsu , lol , Dojutsu ? lol , he's eye is far inferior , partner method ? lol , by who ? genjutsu Kai ? lol good luck with that .


LightningForce said:


> Okay, I guess Rinnegan genjutsu is so strong that it would've also GG'd Naruto who's pretty bad at genjutsu,


Lol , the only Naruto who was bad at genjutsu , is BoS Naruto who has a terrible chakra control , and has no defense against genjutsu , now he is a perfect Jinchuuriki , with the strongest chakra in the manga plus Rikudo Sage mode .


LightningForce said:


> without Kurama being able to wake him up out of it. Let's keep reaching; the sky's the limit!


Lol , the irony is amazing here .
Until you show us WHAT IS KAKASHI'S COUNTER FOR SASUKE'S GENJUTSU , YOU HAVE NO LEGS TO STAND ON , AND YOU LOST THE DEBATE .


LightningForce said:


> No.


You basically conceded by not providing any counter argument .


LightningForce said:


> You know what I'm talking about. Rinnesharingan, Sharinnegan, whatever. No need to get so triggered about the names.


We both know who's triggered here 


LightningForce said:


> I said dojutsu stages don't mean shit to me


But they don't mean a lot , so you are only making your case look bad here with this talking .


LightningForce said:


> As Black Zetsu said, a tool is only as powerful as the user who wields it.


Good thing Sasuke's good with his Rinnegan , as feat shows .
Again , reaching much ????? lol .


LightningForce said:


> that doesn't mean a glance genjutsu is almighty.


It is strong enuff to defeat a far inferior eye .


LightningForce said:


> And even IT required the entire moon to pull off its feat.


Wtf does this have to do with anything ? you're grasping at straws now , IT requires the moon to be used , So ? 
What does this prove ? how does this helps your argument in this thread ?


----------



## Hasan (Oct 22, 2016)

Max Thunder said:


> That contradicts your notion on the functionality of the ability.
> 
> As I said if it was automatic it would always proc just before being hit but it didn't
> But if Minato made that observation, and acted upon it successfully it means the ability isn't automatic.
> ...


I think you're caught up in the semantics. Here's what @Crimson Flam3s  said originally:


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Still see no counter to phasing ability that's not even dependent on reactions and activates automatically.



... and this is his follow-up:


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Obito consciously became solid to attack. Why are your arguing something that was already proven in the manga multiple times?



Clearly, he's thinking along the line that intangibility is the default mode, unless the user overrides it; therefore "automatic". Maybe, it's better stated as: The user's intangible for as long until he doesn't want to be?



cctr9 said:


> Yet you've yet to explain how exactly does this makes Kakashi immune to Sasuke's genjutsu , Bijuu are weak to genjutsu ? well no shit sherlock , but not anyone can genjutsu a Bijuu , manga made it clear that Madara Uchiha was the only one in the past who could control the Kyuubi . Obito did the same , but he had half his body powered with Hashirama's cells , and even then , he could only control it for a short time .


Mangekyou Sharingan comes pre-packaged with ability to control the Bijuu.


----------



## Android (Oct 22, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Mangekyou Sharingan comes pre-packaged with ability to control the Bijuu.


So ?


----------



## Lord Aizen (Oct 22, 2016)

im surprised this is being debated. 3 tomoe kakashi got owned by MS itachi's genjutsu. MS kakashi will get absolutely raped by sasuke's tomoe Rinnegan genjutsu. The gap in the latter is far greater than in the former


----------



## Hasan (Oct 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> So ?


Nothing. Just clarifying the bit that any Mangekyou Sharingan user can control the Bijuu, while your statement gave the impression only Madara and Obito could.


----------



## Android (Oct 22, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Nothing. Just clarifying the bit that any Mangekyou Sharingan user can control the Bijuu, while your statement gave the impression only Madara and Obito could.


It was stated that only Madara Uchiha could control the Kyuubi in the past , i'm sure Madara wasn't the only Mangekyo weilder in his time . Obito is also a Mangekyo weilder and has both Uchiha and Senju power in his body , but even he could only control it for a short time . 
Sasuke did that to 9 Bijuu , with a single glance , with zero effort , no MS can pull that off .


----------



## Hasan (Oct 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> It was stated that only Madara Uchiha could control the Kyuubi in the past , i'm sure Madara wasn't the only Mangekyo weilder in his time . Obito is also a Mangekyo weilder and has both Uchiha and Senju power in his body , but even he could only control it for a short time .
> Sasuke did that to 9 Bijuu , with a single glance , with zero effort , no MS can pull that off .


Itachi stated it to be one the Mangekyou's ability during his fight with Sasuke, so it's true for all users. Madara and Obito are the ones who have _actually_ done so. But—

In regards to the subject matter, that's for @LightningForce (don't want to disrupt the continuity) - this one bit simply caught my eye, so I addressed it. I already gave my thoughts on the subject.


----------



## Android (Oct 22, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Itachi stated it to be one the Mangekyou's ability during his fight with Sasuke, so it's true for all users. Madara and Obito are the ones who have _actually_ done so. But—


I don't think it's true for all users , while it is an ability of the MS , i don't think anyone with a MS can use that ability , if Obito with both Senju and Uchiha power could barely control it for a short time , i don't see how that is possible for any and all MS users .


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 22, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Kakashi has 0 feats that would put him above the biju when it comes to resisting genjutsu, and suggesting the genjutsu is tailor made for biju is baseless, considering sasuke used rinnegan genjutsu on sakura, meaning rinnegan genjutsu affects kakashi as well.
> 
> 
> Against sakura, and kakashi failed to snap her out of it for 24 hours, you most certainly do need to prove things, you can just say "but the biju didnt have MS or a piece of rikudo chakra but kakashi does so he can fight it off" literally nothing even remotely implies kakashi can resist a genjutsu on the level of subduing 9 tailed beasts simultaneously, you claim he can, so you must provide proof.


Sharingan has always been able to subdue tailed beasts easily, I would imagine moreso when you have hagoromo's chakra and a rinnegan.

What feats do tailed beasts have of resisting genjutsu besides getting owned by sharingan users every single time? lol




> This is hype, not feats of kakashi resisting genjutsu, itachi also never used MS to counter kakashis 3T genjutsu, where did you pull this from?



Never said Kakashi used 3t genjutsu and Itachi countered it. Itachi needed MS genjutsu to deal with Kakashi. Why use a tiring power that blinds you when you he could of used 3t genjutsu?



> Obito is featless and hypeless in genjutsu outside of his fight with kakashi, kakashi matching him means exactly nothing.
> 
> Sasuke has EMS which is more powerful than MS, rinnegan which is more powerful than EMS, and way more rikudo chakra than kakashi, and way more chakra pre rikudo amp, so if we scale up, kakashi gets shat on.



Featless? The same obito that genjutsued the full 9 tailes while still being inside kushina? CS2 wings. 

If we scale that up then all he has shown to do is subdue the tailed beasts like the sharingan has alway done, just more efficiently.



> Tailed beast tailored genjutsu" that kakashi couldnt undo when it was cast on a human being for over 24 hours...
> 
> I only brought sakura up as an example of sasuke using rinnegan genjutsu on something other than a biju, you claimed his rinnegan genjutsu wouldnt work on non biju and i provided a scan that says otherwise.


I was arguing that this genjutsu would not work on the same level in humans as it did against tailed beasts.
Seems to hold true so far. Can you name anyone besides foddersakura that has been caught in it? how do you figure 24 hrs? Why did he not use it against shin? Or momoshiki/kinshiki?

Because it's simply genjutsu enhanced by the sharinnegan. Better yes but it's not going to be doing anything to Rikudo kakashi just as sasuke opted not to use it on opponents less equiped to fight it, knowing that it would be useless.



> Hes never had a problem switching places at the last second before.
> 
> Im arguing that kamui has been outflanked by teleportation before and sasuke can teleport, and if kamui activated automatically as you claim, minato would have been unable to hit him the way he did.



Sasuke can not use ameno if the Kamui dimension is already opening in front of his face. What is he going to switch with? deidara's dead arm in kamui dimension giving the win to kakashi?

As I posted in the link, he kamui'd the same ashbone that was already outspeeding naruto and sasuke. How is he dealing with that?

Obito consiously became solid in order to attack minato and minato blitzed him before he realized minato was no longer in front of him. There's already proof such as how obito survived in the first place and kakashi realizing that the phasing ability saved him from the ash bones.

So:

Genjutsu? debunked
Ameno?Kamui GG


I'm posting all of these so people realize that it's possible for kakashi to counter  anything sasuke comes up with, *whoever is winning this battle is not doing it easily* as some people posted that sasuke would, without examining how feats and abilities counter each other, and just using sasuke's hype.


----------



## Android (Oct 22, 2016)

I'm still wondering how the hell is the Bijuu falling for Sharingan genjutsu is a proof of Kakashi's immunity to Sasuke's Rinnegan Genjutsu 

And when the hell did those ashbones shown to be super fast exactly ? if they're so fast , then Sharingan free Kakashi and half dead Obito wouldn't have been able to intercept it . Naruto was using his clones as a meat shield , they were taking those ashbones to protect the real body lmao .

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Oct 22, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Genjutsu? *debunked*


Not...exactly the word i would use, you claim genjutsu wouldn't affect kakashi due to rikudo chakra and him posessing MS, yet sasuke possesses way more potent chakra, way more rikudo chakra, and rinnegan which is 2 levels higher than MS. Then you claimed sasuke cant genjutsu anything outside of bijuus because thats what his genjutsu was tailor made for despite there being 0 evidence that the genjutsu he used to KO sakura was any different than the one used on the bijus, and yes it knocked her out for an entire day, that is blatantly stated in the manga, meaning kakashi couldnt dispel it prior to that time.

Debunked...right...



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Ameno?Kamui GG



Did you miss the part where kamuis ability to send you to another dimension is loled off by S/T ninjutsu...like oh idk ameno for instance?
Sasuke could switch places with kakashi if he needed to, or a pebble, or a freaking butterfly that happens to fly a little too close to the action, hell right here it looks like sasuke didnt switch with anything when he tried to blitz kaguya in the gravity dimension. Making it even less likely kamui even touches him.

Ameno counters kamui, not the other way around.


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I'm still wondering how the hell is the Bijuu falling for Sharingan genjutsu is a proof of Kakashi's immunity to Sasuke's Rinnegan Genjutsu
> 
> And when the hell did those ashbones shown to be super fast exactly ? if they're so fast , then Sharingan free Kakashi and half dead Obito wouldn't have been able to intercept it . Naruto was using his clones as a meat shield , they were taking those ashbones to protect the real body lmao .



Not my fault that you have bad comprehension skills or most likely choose to only focus on what helps your shitty underdeveloped arguments.

Gravity increases weight and more weight equals more energy to move a projectile. They changed to a dimension with higher gravity. If the same amount of energy is used with a heavier object then it will move slower. 5th grade physics for dummies

Now that you mention it, that's another physical feat for kakashi, being able to handle greater gravity than sasuke and naruto who were brought to their knees.

I loled though. If those bones were not speedier than naruto then he would have simply dodged instead of opting to waste a perfectly fine clone.



> Naruto was using his clones as a meat shield , they were taking those ashbones to protect the real body lmao



You said it yourself.

You disappoint me again, unsurprisingly.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Not...exactly the word i would use, you claim genjutsu wouldn't affect kakashi due to rikudo chakra and him posessing MS, yet sasuke possesses way more potent chakra, way more rikudo chakra, and rinnegan which is 2 levels higher than MS. Then you claimed sasuke cant genjutsu anything outside of bijuus because thats what his genjutsu was tailor made for despite there being 0 evidence that the genjutsu he used to KO sakura was any different than the one used on the bijus, and yes it knocked her out for an entire day, that is blatantly stated in the manga, meaning kakashi couldnt dispel it prior to that time.
> Debunked...right...



RS chakra is RS chakra, there is no "more potent". Sasuke indeed has more, which is why I already posted that no one is winning this easily. I can see sasuke outlasting kakashi, or the latter defeating him before he runs out of gas.

I have still yet to see evidence of this potent Rikudou level slayer genjutsu being used on any top tier.



> Did you miss the part where kamuis ability to send you to another dimension is loled off by S/T ninjutsu...like oh idk ameno for instance?





> Sasuke could switch places with kakashi if he needed to, or a pebble, or a freaking butterfly that happens to fly a little too close to the action, hell right here it looks like sasuke didnt switch with anything when he tried to blitz kaguya in the gravity dimension. Making it even less likely kamui even touches him.
> 
> Ameno counters kamui, not the other way around.



If sasuke knows that kamui is about to hit then absolutely. What makes you think he will? He won't be able to ameno once it's initiated as addressed previously. Do you even know how ameno works and how it differenciates from Hiriashin? He looks at something then swaps places. How is he doing that with his face being warped and everything in his fov being the kamui void?


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Oct 23, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> RS chakra is RS chakra, there is no "more potent". Sasuke indeed has more, which is why I already posted that no one is winning this easily. I can see sasuke outlasting kakashi, or the latter defeating him before he runs out of gas.
> 
> I have still yet to see evidence of this potent Rikudou level slayer genjutsu being used on any top tier.


I meant his base chakra pre rikudo was more potent than kakashis base chakra, sasuke is both an uchiha and an indra reincarnation, either one of those things by default puts him in a league of his own in both quality and quantity of chakra, especially when compared to a nobody like kakashi, who has multiple times throughout the series *stated himself*, that his reserves are hardly worth mentioning and are fairly close to average.
Sasuke had better chakra pre rikudo boost, and received more rikudo chakra than kakashi did anyway, these facts combined with the fact he has a rinnegan that he uses to cast genjutsu up against kakashis mere MS, and kakashis total lack of feats suggesting he can tank a biju level genjutsu, or any genjutsu for that matter, mean that *kakashi can and will be* affected by sasukes genjutsu and a genjutsu on that level will be a game changer for sasuke.

Rikudo sasuke chakra >>>Rikudo kakashi chakra>pre rikudo sasuke chakra>>>pre rikudo kakashi chakra

Rinnegan>>>EMS>MS

MS kakashi hype, and rikudo kakashi hype are not valid arguments for a defense against genjutsu that neg diffs 9 biju simultaneously via feats. Especially considering sasukes chakra has far greater hype, and the rinnegan hype laughs at the MS hype.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> If sasuke knows that kamui is about to hit then absolutely. What makes you think he will?


Minato didnt know wtf was happening, it was literally his very first time witnessing kamui and he got out of it just fine. Sasuke, who has seen the technique before, and has his own method of teleportation will be just fine. 


Crimson Flam3s said:


> He won't be able to ameno once it's initiated as addressed previously.


110% baseless, sasuke absolutely can ameno out of it once it is initiated because that is exactly when minato avoided it *on panel*, as he was being transported to boxland he could still get away, meaning sasuke, who is also capable of teleporting in a similar fashion to FTG with his ameno, avoids it the exact same way minato did.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Do you even know how ameno works and how it differenciates from Hiriashin?


Do you know how they are similar? They are both S/T techs that allow for teleportation, and teleportation allows one to escape kamuis effects as shown in the manga.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> He looks at something then swaps places. How is he doing that with his face being warped and everything in his fov being the kamui void?


I posted a scan of him attempting to blitz kaguya in the gravity dimension and he apparently swapped places with nothing, even assuming this was merely an outlier, sasuke will still have no trouble escaping, he can swap places with kakashi if he wanted to, or literally anything he sets his eye on, kamui warping his vision could actually allow him to see more instead of less, with the odd way it distorts space around sasuke he might be able to swap with something that would normally be out of LoS. Space being distorted around sasuke also doesnt mean he wont be able to focus on objects still within his FOV.

I have seen no counter to...

Biju murking genjutsu that requires no eye contact
Ameno blitzing similar to FTG lvl 2 vs obito 
Using Ameno to place kakashis face on sasukes chidori
Using Ameno to throw kakashis face directly onto a susanoo blade
Using Ameno to throw kakashis face into a kamui shuriken and having him dealt with via his own attack.
Sasuke neg diff countering kamui shuriken with simple V3 susanoo arrows
Sasuke neg diff countering kamui shuriken via rikudo amped enton, when pre rikudo amp enton could harm the juubi with the aid of FRS
Sasukes superior rinnegan/rikudo PS beating kakashis MS PS.
Sasuke easily outlasting kakashi
Sasuke timing out kakashis very temporary rikudo amp and then lolstomping the sharingan-less fodder that it leaves behind.


Side note, what is kakashis genius counter to 9 CTs??? Im curious, the intense gravity created by even one CT is sufficient to carry a biju, and attracts all ranged attacks to its core as pointed out by itachi, meaning if sasuke used even a single CT, he could trap kakashis PS, or grant himself total immunity to the kamui shuriken by forcing them to avoid him by traveling to the gravity source instead of whereever kakashi tries to throw them, and they would likely hit some rubble on the way up and not even make it to the CT core. The pull from 9 CTs would be unimaginable.

Sasuke could also force kakashi to use up all of his intangibility and its 5 min time limit in a similar fashion to what konan attempted. Sasuke could use CT after CT or all 9 simultaneously to force kakashi to keep up intangibility, or be sealed away inside a meteor, this would easily be able to drain kakashis 5 minute limit.


----------



## Icegaze (Oct 23, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Not my fault that you have bad comprehension skills or most likely choose to only focus on what helps your shitty underdeveloped arguments.
> 
> Gravity increases weight and more weight equals more energy to move a projectile. They changed to a dimension with higher gravity. If the same amount of energy is used with a heavier object then it will move slower. 5th grade physics for dummies
> 
> ...


In end of series when he used ameno to avoid momoski or however you spell it 
He wasn't even looking st the statue he switched places with 

So really kamui ain't ever hitting sasuke


----------



## Veracity (Oct 23, 2016)

I might be mistaken like hella. But I thought that Sasuke could teleport to anything he's looking at as well as switch places when objects..?


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Oct 23, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I might be mistaken like hella. But I thought that Sasuke could teleport to anything he's looking at as well as switch places when objects..?


He can, but he has a limit to how far he can go.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Hasan (Oct 23, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I don't think it's true for all users , while it is an ability of the MS , i don't think anyone with a MS can use that ability , if Obito with both Senju and Uchiha power could barely control it for a short time , i don't see how that is possible for any and all MS users .


Um, yes it is. It's inscribed on their tablet in the Naka Shrine; is common knowledge among... everyone; is the chief reason that got the whole clan killed. In fact, the Mangekyou is stated only once, while the later developments suggest one can do it with even a regular Sharingan. Genjutsu: Sharingan = Bijuu's Kyrptonite.

The Bijuu... _merely a momentary life, a temporary existence of coalesced energy; once a single, ultimate form. An unstable form, lacking in intelligence and sapience; requiring a guide to show them purpose; the guide is Uchiha. The bijuu are nothing but slaves to those with blessed eyes. OBEY! 

_


cctr9 said:


> I'm still wondering how the hell is the Bijuu falling for Sharingan genjutsu is a proof of Kakashi's immunity to Sasuke's Rinnegan Genjutsu


Kakashi ≠ Bijuu. 



> And when the hell did those ashbones shown to be super fast exactly ? if they're so fast , then Sharingan free Kakashi and half dead Obito wouldn't have been able to intercept it . Naruto was using his clones as a meat shield , they were taking those ashbones to protect the real body lmao .


It's stated on the pages, the technique's used. Kaguya, versus Kakashi, is altogether stronger and faster than her pre-destablized form. Kakashi was hit with a far more powerful and faster attack than anything Naruto and Sasuke faced... still slip passed him. Hah! :WOW



WorldsStrongest said:


> Not...exactly the word i would use, you claim genjutsu wouldn't affect kakashi due to rikudo chakra and him posessing MS, yet sasuke possesses
> way more potent chakra


The source for Kakashi's Six Paths chakra is the same as it was for Hagoromo. Whatever quality he had, prior to receiving this chakra, makes no difference.



> way more rikudo chakra


Quanity ≠ Potency. It has to do with capacity; number of times a technique can be used. All techniques require precise amount chakra – pouring in more will result in the required amount being utilized, and the remaining goes to waste.



> and rinnegan which is 2 levels higher than MS.


It's a standard Genjutsu: Sharingan, with Six Paths chakra doing its magic by allowing him to ensare all bijuu at once. Is Rinnegan ahead of Mangekyou? It is, but genjutsu isn't part of the package, in relation to what the makes Rinnegan - Rinnegan. It's the Six Paths Technique, which isn't being discussed here. Genjutsu is a power of Sharingan (even Mugen Tsukuyomi is), and Rinnegan is backward compatible. If you filter out Rinnegan's uniqueness, you're left with... *surprise* what Kakashi has: Mangekyou Sharingan, amped on Six Paths chakra. 

If you argue, Sasuke's Six Paths chakra is aiding in casting genjutsu, then it's also reasonable that Kakashi's Six Paths chakra is aiding in built-in genjutsu-resistance feature of the Sharingan; and Kakashi directly stated that his doujutsu had been enhanced with it.



> Then you claimed sasuke cant genjutsu anything outside of bijuus because thats what his genjutsu was tailor made for despite there being 0 evidence that the genjutsu he used to KO sakura was any different than the one used on the bijus, and yes it knocked her out for an entire day, that is blatantly stated in the manga, meaning kakashi couldnt dispel it prior to that time.


A genjutsu that knocks someone unconscious... _sounds familiar. _



WorldsStrongest said:


> Minato didnt know wtf was happening, it was literally his very first time witnessing kamui and he got out of it just fine. Sasuke, who has seen the technique before, and has his own method of teleportation will be just fine.





> 110% baseless, sasuke absolutely can ameno out of it once it is initiated because that is exactly when minato avoided it *on panel*, as he was being transported to boxland he could still get away, meaning sasuke, who is also capable of teleporting in a similar fashion to FTG with his ameno, avoids it the exact same way minato did.





> Do you know how they are similar? They are both S/T techs that allow for teleportation, and teleportation allows one to escape kamuis effects as shown in the manga.


*Obito:* _"Heh, talk about fast... Next time, I'll warp him the second I lay my hand upon him."_

*Minato:* _"It comes down to speed... *whoever* strikes a split-second earlier will win."
_
Minato vs. Obito had its own special circumstances, which you ignore; don't generalize it.



> Side note, what is kakashis genius counter to 9 CTs??? Im curious, the intense gravity created by even one CT is sufficient to carry a biju, and attracts all ranged attacks to its core as pointed out by itachi, meaning if sasuke used even a single CT, he could trap kakashis PS, or grant himself total immunity to the kamui shuriken by forcing them to avoid him by traveling to the gravity source instead of whereever kakashi tries to throw them, and they would likely hit some rubble on the way up and not even make it to the CT core. The pull from 9 CTs would be unimaginable.


*a.* Stand still? [1, 2]
*b.* Complete Susano'o? _Also notice Gaara in the above scan #2._
*c. *Also, you're severely undermining Kamui Shurikens. A perfect aim will only accelerate them in direction of the core, effectively taking it out.



> Sasuke could also force kakashi to use up all of his intangibility and its 5 min time limit in a similar fashion to what konan attempted. Sasuke could use CT after CT or all 9 simultaneously to force kakashi to keep up intangibility, or be sealed away inside a meteor, this would easily be able to drain kakashis 5 minute limit.


How about no? [1, 2]

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 2


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Oct 23, 2016)

Hasan said:


> The source for Kakashi's Six Paths chakra is the same as it was for Hagoromo. Whatever quality he had, prior to receiving this chakra, makes no difference.


Irrelevant to my point, im saying that since kakashi and sasuke both recieved rikudo chakra, you could effectively say that more or less cancels in this equation, so all you are left with, is comparing their base chakra, of which sasuke has way more, and what chakra he has is much more potent than kakashis.



Hasan said:


> Quanity ≠ Potency. It has to do with capacity; number of times a technique can be used. All techniques require precise amount chakra – pouring in more will result in the required amount being utilized, and the remaining goes to waste.


I never claimed it did, and this is also irrelevant. Considering sasuke has>Quantity than kakashi, and >potency than kakashi, even if the two are mutually exclusive it doesnt change the result. If sasuke put the exact same amount of chakra into casting a genjutsu as kakashi put into defending against said genjutsu, kakashi would very likely lose that fight because of sasukes much more potent chakra, pound for pound, sasukes is worth more, and he has more of it, double whammy for kakashi.


Hasan said:


> It's a standard Genjutsu: Sharingan, with Six Paths chakra doing its magic by allowing him to ensare all bijuu at once. Is Rinnegan ahead of Mangekyou? It is, but genjutsu isn't part of the package, in relation to what the makes Rinnegan - Rinnegan. It's the Six Paths Technique, which isn't being discussed here. Genjutsu is a power of Sharingan (even Mugen Tsukuyomi is), and Rinnegan is backward compatible. If you filter out Rinnegan's uniqueness, you're left with... *surprise* what Kakashi has: Mangekyou Sharingan, amped on Six Paths chakra.
> 
> If you argue, Sasuke's Six Paths chakra is aiding in casting genjutsu, then it's also reasonable that Kakashi's Six Paths chakra is aiding in built-in genjutsu-resistance feature of the Sharingan; and Kakashi directly stated that his doujutsu had been enhanced with it.


Whether it is a base Genjutsu: Sharingan or a unique rinnegan genjutsu sasuke acquired, is irrelevant. The point is, the genjutsu is being cast using the rinnegan as a medium which by default makes a technique more powerful than using it normally. For example, chidori, compared to Susanoo: Chidori, it is the exact same technique, only using susanoo as a medium, which makes it more powerful. Same concept with sasukes genjutsu being used through rinnegan.

If you argue that kakashis rikudo enhanced MS has increased defensive potential against genjutsu, then you must also agree that sasukes rikudo enhanced Rinnegan has better offensive potential for genjutsu. This is what i was getting at when i said you can effectively ignore the rikudo amp considering they both have it, so it comes down to who brings the better tool for the job, and who has the most skill with said tool. 

Rinnegan>EMS>MS

So sasuke is bringing the far better tool.

Sasuke with 3T broke out of Itachis Tsukuyomi, compared to kakashi with 3T who got hit by it and was unconscious for over a week, so its safe to say sasuke is also more skilled with his genjutsu tool than kakashi is.

Add to this sasukes far more potent chakra as i have pointed out earlier, and its 3-0 in sasukes favor for beating kakashi with his genjutsu.



Hasan said:


> A genjutsu that knocks someone unconscious... _sounds familiar. _


Oh wow, kakashi hit a fodder nobody with no hype or feats when it comes to resisting genjutsu with his sharingan, impressive...Sasuke 1 shotted 9 tailed beasts without eye contact using genjutsu, and then used genjutsu on sakura, who has been hyped to have a natural aptitude for dealing with genjutsu since part 1, giving her 1 up on fodder anbu over there. Sasuke also knocked her out for an entire day and kakashi couldnt snap her out of it, for all we know that anbu guy woke up 10 minutes later.



Hasan said:


> *Obito:* _"Heh, talk about fast... Next time, I'll warp him the second I lay my hand upon him."_
> 
> *Minato:* _"It comes down to speed... *whoever* strikes a split-second earlier will win."_
> 
> ...


The special circumstances were S/T ninjutsu vs another S/T ninjutsu, which is _exactly_ what ameno vs kamui is. 
Its hardly generalization when im saying since 1 guy with the ability to teleport managed to escape kamuis effect, then another guy _who also possesses the ability to teleport _can replicate this.  



Hasan said:


> *a.* Stand still? [1, 2]
> *b.* Complete Susano'o? _Also notice Gaara in the above scan #2._
> *c. *Also, you're severely undermining Kamui Shurikens. A perfect aim will only accelerate them in direction of the core, effectively taking it out.


A.Stand still...yup that worked real well for naruto itachi and killer bee against a single CT. Or when pain used it on naruto. Sasuke was specifically targeting the tailed beasts with his CTs, which is why the others were not affected.
B.The CTs were already formed there, meaning they would have little no no gravitational pull, as for gaara, do we know how close he was to the action? Madara ripped an entire country out of the ground IIRC, gaara could have been miles away from those CTs and would thus be unaffected by the gravity.
C. The core would be surrounded by debris, the kamui shuriken would need to hit the core directly to take it out which would be extremely difficult, i highly doubt a kamui shuriken can take out a CT core on its own when it took a TBB, Yasaka magatama, and a kurama amped Rasenshuriken *together* to take out nagatos single CT, how does kakashi deal with 9 of them exactly?



Hasan said:


> How about no? [1, 2]


This proves exactly nothing, obito hid inside a pillar...good for him??? A CT would take obito up into the sky along with his "genius" hiding spot...

"How about no" indeed.

 And if you are using this scan to try and say kakashi can simply slip out of a CT after he gets caught, id have to disagree with you. When has kamui ever shown the ability to defy gravity? Intangible or no, kamui has never granted anti gravity properties, meaning just because he cant be physically touched easily doesnt mean he is immune to gravity's cruel grasp. He may be able to slip through the debris thanks to kamui, but if he was trapped inside a meteor than it would be the gravity keeping him there, not just the rocks.


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 23, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> The hermit had the power of the six paths even before becoming the Juubi Jinchuuriki . See Hago and Hamura vs the Juubi



Ten Tails = Kaguya = Progenitor of all chakra. Are you now trying to say Ten Tails chakra <<< Hagoromo's chakra? 



> The seal returned to Hago , yet it's chakra still with Sasuke , Hago was low on chakra even after taking back his seals .
> Sasuke's ability to sense NE at VotE .



Six Paths Yin Power = seal, deal with it.

Sasuke's ability to sense NE here is irrelevant.



> Obito was half dead , just used Rinne Tensei , and just got the Bijuu and the Mazo extracted from his body , and you're expecting him to use PS ? lol ok .



I expected him to be able to use *some form of Susano'o* at least. But he didn't.



> Yet you've yet to explain how exactly does this makes Kakashi immune to Sasuke's genjutsu , Bijuu are weak to genjutsu ? well no shit sherlock , but not anyone can genjutsu a Bijuu , manga made it clear that Madara Uchiha was the only one in the past who could control the Kyuubi . Obito did the same , but he had half his body powered with Hashirama's cells , and even then , he could only control it for a short time .
> 
> " All the Bijuu has fallen for his genjutsu , and he managed to do it with just a glance !! "
> Lol , reaching much ?
> ...



The same MS genjutsu that made Kurama *a bitch* to Obito, Kakashi *stalemated*. You have no basis when using the genjutsu GG argument just because the tailed beasts which have a natural weakness to dojutsu fell prey to dojutsu yet again.

 the reach to defend Naruto's ineptness at genjutsu.

In the Last, this *perfect Jinchuuriki Naruto* fell prey to Toneri's genjutsu, along with everyone else. And guess who broke out of them? S*akura*, the same person who fell to Sasuke's Rinnegan genjutsu.

So by your Rinnegan genjutsu GG logic, an all-out Sasuke fucks over RSM Naruto with Rinnegan genjutsu GG. This is a logical comparison in genjutsu capabilities. The Rinnegan genjutsu GG argument against Kakashi *isn't* because tailed beasts <<< Sharingan users in terms of genjutsu resilience.



> Lol , the irony is amazing here .
> Until you show us WHAT IS KAKASHI'S COUNTER FOR SASUKE'S GENJUTSU , YOU HAVE NO LEGS TO STAND ON , AND YOU LOST THE DEBATE .



The irony is certainly lost on you.



> You basically conceded by not providing any counter argument .



You are more dense than Naruto himself, it seems.



> We both know who's triggered here



Glad we agree on that. Next time, correct people on names in a calm manner without getting your jimmies rustled.



> Good thing Sasuke's good with his Rinnegan , as feat shows .
> Again , reaching much ????? lol .



And good thing Kakashi is good with the powers bestowed upon him as well.



> It is strong enuff to defeat a far inferior eye .



Not against Kamui hax enhanced with Six Paths chakra. And by that logic, Kinshiki < Sasuke so genjutsu GG for him because he only has Byakugan.



> Wtf does this have to do with anything ? you're grasping at straws now , IT requires the moon to be used , So ?
> What does this prove ? how does this helps your argument in this thread ?





We were talking about overall Rinnegan capability. The Rinnegan alone cannot enslave the entire world by itself. It needs the moon to do that. I really don't like people who just read to respond, and don't read to actually understand.

If you're really going to continue pushing this genjutsu GG argument, then I'm expecting you to use this stupid logic in all future Sasuke vs. Naruto/Momoshiki/Kinshiki threads. Otherwise, your argument has no merit and is extremely character selective.


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 23, 2016)

The Chibaku Tensei argument is pointless as well. He would've done that against Naruto if it was a viable option. Kakashi has the means to avoid damage and break the core. What's more, he can self-warp to the Kamui dimension and fall out of his influence.


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 23, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I meant his base chakra pre rikudo was more potent than kakashis base chakra, sasuke is both an uchiha and an indra reincarnation, either one of those things by default puts him in a league of his own in both quality and quantity of chakra, especially when compared to a nobody like kakashi, who has multiple times throughout the series *stated himself*, that his reserves are hardly worth mentioning and are fairly close to average.
> Sasuke had better chakra pre rikudo boost, and received more rikudo chakra than kakashi did anyway, these facts combined with the fact he has a rinnegan that he uses to cast genjutsu up against kakashis mere MS, and kakashis total lack of feats suggesting he can tank a biju level genjutsu, or any genjutsu for that matter, mean that *kakashi can and will be* affected by sasukes genjutsu and a genjutsu on that level will be a game changer for sasuke.
> 
> Rikudo sasuke chakra >>>Rikudo kakashi chakra>pre rikudo sasuke chakra>>>pre rikudo kakashi chakra
> ...



All I see is uneducated assumptions that are disproved by the manga itself.

This nonexistant superior chakra did not help Sasuke one bit, as kakashi's performance in 1 chapter is better than what sasuke did throught the whole battle.



> Minato didnt know wtf was happening, it was literally his very first time witnessing kamui and he got out of it just fine. Sasuke, who has seen the technique before, and has his own method of teleportation will be just fine.
> 
> 110% baseless, sasuke absolutely can ameno out of it once it is initiated because that is exactly when minato avoided it *on panel*, as he was being transported to boxland he could still get away, meaning sasuke, who is also capable of teleporting in a similar fashion to FTG with his ameno, avoids it the exact same way minato did.
> 
> Do you know how they are similar? They are both S/T techs that allow for teleportation, and teleportation allows one to escape kamuis effects as shown in the manga.



Sasuke needs to look at something and swap places with it, Minato just activates it whenever he feels like it.




> I posted a scan of him attempting to blitz kaguya in the gravity dimension and he apparently swapped places with nothing, even assuming this was merely an outlier, sasuke will still have no trouble escaping, he can swap places with kakashi if he wanted to, or literally anything he sets his eye on, kamui warping his vision could actually allow him to see more instead of less, with the odd way it distorts space around sasuke he might be able to swap with something that would normally be out of LoS. Space being distorted around sasuke also doesnt mean he wont be able to focus on objects still within his FOV.



Again, Sasuke had the opportunity to use this genjutsu against people less equipped than Kakashi to fight it and he didn't because it's worthless, against someone with decent genjutsu counter.

Did you see the state that Minato was in when he managed to barely warp away? and Sasuke is going to hve time to look around to find something to switch to? Lol

Sasuke couldn't even react to Kaguya here and he is somehow going to react to the Kamui that warped this ashbone through the portal and it's about to low-diff naruto.

Laughable.



> I have seen no counter to...
> 
> Biju murking genjutsu that requires no eye contact
> Ameno blitzing similar to FTG lvl 2 vs obito
> ...



Do you have bad memory? I suggest you go re-read our previous posts to find the answers. Anybody can make a list full of stuff that has already been debunked and flawed full of assumptions.

I already addressed the stamina and intangibility plus kamui gg makes that list nothing but worthless?



> Side note, what is kakashis genius counter to 9 CTs??? Im curious, the intense gravity created by even one CT is sufficient to carry a biju, and attracts all ranged attacks to its core as pointed out by itachi, meaning if sasuke used even a single CT, he could trap kakashis PS, or grant himself total immunity to the kamui shuriken by forcing them to avoid him by traveling to the gravity source instead of whereever kakashi tries to throw them, and they would likely hit some rubble on the way up and not even make it to the CT core. The pull from 9 CTs would be unimaginable.
> 
> Sasuke could also force kakashi to use up all of his intangibility and its 5 min time limit in a similar fashion to what konan attempted. Sasuke could use CT after CT or all 9 simultaneously to force kakashi to keep up intangibility, or be sealed away inside a meteor, this would easily be able to drain kakashis 5 minute limit.



He simply snipes his head off the moment he slaps his hands together and stands still

Have any other technique left that you want me to low-diff?

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 23, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> im surprised this is being debated. 3 tomoe kakashi got owned by MS itachi's genjutsu. MS kakashi will get absolutely raped by sasuke's tomoe Rinnegan genjutsu. The gap in the latter is far greater than in the former



This is a reply I would expect from someone who reads the manga ignorantly and doesn't look at character portrayals objectively.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 23, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Sasuke couldn't even react to Kaguya here and he is somehow going to react to the Kamui that warped this ashbone through the portal and it's about to low-diff naruto.



This comparison always seem to be conveniently ignored in threads like this.

This is why I believe DMS long-range Kamui is extremely dangerous if Sasuke doesn't use Ameno correctly. It would pretty much low-diff all fights against Kakashi bar RSM Naruto and Kaguya.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 23, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> This comparison always seem to be conveniently ignored in threads like this.
> 
> This is why I believe DMS long-range Kamui is extremely dangerous if Sasuke doesn't use Ameno correctly. It would pretty much low-diff all fights against Kakashi bar RSM Naruto and Kaguya.



Yeah I see many of his feats conveniently ignored. All the "sasuke low diffs" make me lol.

Most of the arguments are based of the assumption that kakashi couldn't possibly be near the level of this sasuke, him kinda being the "fv" badboy etc etc". No real insight in how their skills would interact with each other. 

There is a reason why sasuke conveniently waited for dms kakashi to run out of gas to state his true plan.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Android (Oct 23, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Ten Tails = Kaguya = Progenitor of all chakra. Are you now trying to say Ten Tails chakra <<< Hagoromo's chakra?


Tell me you didn't just fucking miss the point 


LightningForce said:


> Six Paths Yin Power = seal, deal with it.


I know this already god damn it , not my point , again 


LightningForce said:


> I expected him to be able to use *some form of Susano'o* at least. But he didn't.



He didn't because he couldn't , what so hard to get kiddo ?


LightningForce said:


> The same MS genjutsu that made Kurama *a bitch* to Obito, Kakashi *stalemated*. You have no basis when using the genjutsu GG argument just because the tailed beasts which have a natural weakness to dojutsu fell prey to dojutsu yet again.



Comparing Obito's genjutsu to Sasuke is fucking laughable , tell me something , do you have to look in the garbage can to find your arguments ? 
Sasuke fucking one shotted 9 Bijuu with a single shot of his genjutsu , Obito couldn't even control the Kyuubi for a long time . Now how the fuck does this makes Kakashi immune to Sasuke's much , much , much more powerful genjutsu ?
Oh wait , it doesn't 
But oh wait 
This is the guy who keep tapdancing around the argument , posting zero feat or evidence for why wouldn't Kakashi get fucked with Sasuke's genjutsu .
This is your last chance , prove Kakashi can resist Sasuke's genjutsu , or stop wasting my time with these dumb , vague , baseless , arguments 


LightningForce said:


> the reach to defend Naruto's ineptness at genjutsu.


Oh , i fucking looooooooooove irony 


LightningForce said:


> In the Last, this *perfect Jinchuuriki Naruto* fell prey to Toneri's genjutsu, along with everyone else. And guess who broke out of them? S*akura*, the same person who fell to Sasuke's Rinnegan genjutsu.


An outlier , a plot device for the movie , anyone with one brain cell in his head can understand that this is an outlier . In addition to that , we doesn't even know how Toneri's genjutsu work , it could even effect perfect jinchuurikis .
Genjutsu doesn't work on a perfect Jinchuuriki , this was shown and stated and explained and spoon fed to you in the manga , and your ass can deal with it son .


LightningForce said:


> So by your Rinnegan genjutsu GG logic, an all-out Sasuke fucks over RSM Naruto with Rinnegan genjutsu GG. This is a logical comparison in genjutsu capabilities. The Rinnegan genjutsu GG argument against Kakashi *isn't* because tailed beasts <<< Sharingan users in terms of genjutsu resilience.


Everything Sasuke used against Naruto in that fight , failed to put his down , he already saw that genjutsu doesn't effect Bijuu host link with his fight with Bee , so it was abviously useless and a waste of chakra .
In addition to that , we saw that even MS users can still be put in genjutsu , see Sasuke vs Itachi , Sasuke vs Danzo ... etc etc .
So no , Kakashi having just lol MS isn't gonna cut it here , his eye is far inferior , his chakra is far inferior , so in a battle of Genjutsu , Kakashi gets his ass raped 


LightningForce said:


> The irony is certainly lost on you.


The salt 


LightningForce said:


> Glad we agree on that. Next time, correct people on names in a calm manner without getting your jimmies rustled.


More salt 


LightningForce said:


> And good thing Kakashi is good with the powers bestowed upon him as well.


Yeah , so ? 
1- Kakashi got raped by Itachi's genjutsu , because even tho , Kakashi had the Sharingan as well , he isn't the guy who can draw on it's full power because he isn't a true Uchiha .
2- Sasuke trolled Itachi's genjutsu that one shotted Kakashi .
Put 1 and 2 together and we can all come to the conclusion that Sasuke is far , far better that Kakashi in terms of genjutsu prowess , and that Kakashi can and will lose a battle with Sasuke .
And here ? with Sasuke having the Rinnegan ? and half of Hago's power ? yeah , good luck arguing for Kakashi's victory 


LightningForce said:


> Not against Kamui hax enhanced with Six Paths chakra. And by that logic, Kinshiki < Sasuke so genjutsu GG for him because he only has Byakugan.


Lol @ Kamui hax enhanced with six paths chakra , as if that gonna cut it here 
Ssasuke didn't even use a fucking chidori against Kinshiki , not even a single Katon , does this change the fact that those tools would've been effective against him ?


LightningForce said:


> We were talking about overall Rinnegan capability. The Rinnegan alone cannot enslave the entire world by itself. It needs the moon to do that. I really don't like people who just read to respond, and don't read to actually understand.



This is so dumb , making the moon cast a genjutsu upon the world is an ability itself , while other Sharingan need an eye contact to cast the genjutsu , the Rinne Sharingan needs the moon , two different methods , same fucking result .


LightningForce said:


> If you're really going to continue pushing this genjutsu GG argument, then I'm expecting you to use this stupid logic in all future Sasuke vs. Naruto/Momoshiki/Kinshiki threads. Otherwise, your argument has no merit and is extremely character selective.


So let me get this straight 
No counter argument .
No feats of Kakashi suggesting he can resist Sasuke's genjutsu .
No reasons for why would Kakashi be able to resist Sasuke's genjutsu aside from :
* Hurr Bijuu are weak to genjutsu , when you were just braging about Obito putting Kyuubi in his genjutsu , as if this means that Kakashi is somehow immune to Rinnegan genjutsu , when he got raped by Itachi's genjutsu .
* Hurr Kakashi countered Obito's genjutsu , as if that's a feat that allows him to fight a Rinnegan genjutsu .
Just a lame ass mockery , dumb logic everywhere , vague empty arguments , and a waste of time .
Don't quote me next time unless you have something useful and not a time wasting to say .

But until you do , Rinnegan genjustu G fucking G .


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 23, 2016)

Seriously, cut the crap. Your language, your tone, and your flamboyant usage of emojis evidently tell me that you are triggered and irrational right now. Nothing I say or case I present will budge you. You have countered almost nothing in my argument with a shred of common logic, and have been jumping my cases when I present them to you. 

I find this Rinnegan genjutsu GG case to be hilarious when it has been only used to immobilize tailed beasts, who have no resilience to genjutsu at all, and think it would apply to Six Paths DMS wielder who has never lost to standard visual genjutsu. This almighty Rinnegan genjutsu should be able to counter even a perfect host like Naruto when standard MS has been confirmed to do so in the past (Obito and Yagura). Where are these arguments in Naruto vs Sasuke threads? So much character bias and faulty assumptions made when it comes to this point. I really can't deal with this crap anymore.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Veracity (Oct 23, 2016)

I hope someone didn't say Kakashi can low difficulty Sasuke. Like legit someone must not even acknowledge portrayal in any facet of sense possible. i don't know what the hell portrayal did to some of you guys but y'all act like it's your worst enemy.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Rai (Oct 23, 2016)

Kakashi win via feats


----------



## Hasan (Oct 23, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Irrelevant to my point, im saying that since kakashi and sasuke both recieved rikudo chakra, you could effectively say that more or less cancels in this equation, so all you are left with, is comparing their base chakra, of which sasuke has way more, and what chakra he has is much more potent than kakashis.


I believe that's an assumption on your part; Six Paths chakra is the base chakra.



> I never claimed it did, and this is also irrelevant. Considering sasuke has>Quantity than kakashi, and >potency than kakashi, even if the two are mutually exclusive it doesnt change the result.


Actually, you did. You related quantity (beside other two) with Sasuke's genjutsu being effective against Kakashi. But no longer a concern, seeing you are entertaining the notion of them being _mutually exclusive._



> If sasuke put the exact same amount of chakra into casting a genjutsu as kakashi put into defending against said genjutsu, kakashi would very likely lose that fight because of sasukes much more potent chakra, pound for pound, sasukes is worth more, and he has more of it, double whammy for kakashi.


We haven't been informed of the inner working on the Sharingan, and how it negates genjutsu. We only know it does.



> Whether it is a base Genjutsu: Sharingan or a unique rinnegan genjutsu sasuke acquired, is irrelevant. The point is, the genjutsu is being cast using the rinnegan as a medium which by default makes a technique more powerful than using it normally. For example, chidori, compared to Susanoo: Chidori, it is the exact same technique, only using susanoo as a medium, which makes it more powerful. Same concept with sasukes genjutsu being used through rinnegan.
> 
> If you argue that kakashis rikudo enhanced MS has increased defensive potential against genjutsu, then you must also agree that sasukes rikudo enhanced Rinnegan has better offensive potential for genjutsu. This is what i was getting at when i said you can effectively ignore the rikudo amp considering they both have it, so it comes down to who brings the better tool for the job, and who has the most skill with said tool.
> 
> ...


Is it safe to assume, you only read the "Genjutsu: Sharingan" part, and decided to reply without reading the rest? I just explained what makes the Rinnegan more powerful than the Mangekyou. By postulating "Rinnegan", you're essentially arguing that Sasuke can use Chibaku Tensei, therefore Kakashi can't deal with his genjutsu. No correlation? Exactly. 



> Oh wow, kakashi hit a fodder nobody with no hype or feats when it comes to resisting genjutsu with his sharingan, impressive...Sasuke 1 shotted 9 tailed beasts without eye contact using genjutsu, and then used genjutsu on sakura, who has been hyped to have a natural aptitude for dealing with genjutsu since part 1, giving her 1 up on fodder anbu over there. Sasuke also knocked her out for an entire day and kakashi couldnt snap her out of it, for all we know that anbu guy woke up 10 minutes later.


Review time :



WorldsStrongest said:


> Then you claimed sasuke cant genjutsu anything outside of bijuus because thats what his genjutsu was tailor made for despite there being 0 evidence that the genjutsu he used to KO sakura was any different than the one used on the bijus, and yes it knocked her out for an entire day, that is blatantly stated in the manga, meaning kakashi couldnt dispel it prior to that time.


Sasuke's genjutsu on Sakura is the same genjutsu that Kakashi used against those mooks; the bijuu are put in genjutsu differently. Also, you do realize using genjutsu to knock someone unconscious ≠ the genjutsu is still active. We're directly shown what Sasuke did to Sakura; both Sasuke and Kakashi fell unconscious from Tsukuyomi; and finally Kakashi knocking Sakura out by showing her a badly injured Sasuke.



> The special circumstances were S/T ninjutsu vs another S/T ninjutsu, which is _exactly_ what ameno vs kamui is.
> Its hardly generalization when im saying since 1 guy with the ability to teleport managed to escape kamuis effect, then another guy _who also possesses the ability to teleport _can replicate this.


*sigh* I figured, I would need to explain. Did Minato escape Kamui? Yes, and that's because Obito pronounced his victory before initiating the warp, entailing a slightly delay, but enough time for Minato to make a jump. It's for this reason he says:

_"Heh, talk about fast... Next time, I'll warp him the second I lay my hand upon him."_​
Then, nearing the conclusion of their battle, Minato says:

_"It's comes down to speed... whoever strikes a split-second earlier will win."_​
In other words, he would have lost, if Obito warped him. But then, the first time around, he escaped, so why can't he do it again? It's simple: Obito's pronouncement alerted him, and sensing danger, he made the jump right before Obito (or at best, at the same time) executed Kamui i.e. he didn't make the jump mid-warp (the sequence is shown in an elaborated manner - in slow motion)... and this is evident from both their comments.

Minato escaped Kamui? Yes, because there was a delay on Obito's part (and he still fell flat on his head after jumping).
Minato countered Kamui? Yes, because he knew that Obito would materialize to attack; the latter couldn't prolong the fight any longer due to the Kyuubi.

What implication does it have on Kakashi vs. Sasuke? Yeah, nothing. Neither is Kakashi going to annouce like Obito, nor is he required to rush the battle like Obito i.e. Minato's success is subject to circumstances that are not applicable here. This battle is also different in that Kakashi is in possession of the complete set i.e. Kamui is faster. If you think Amenotejikara counters Kamui, that's fine - make a case. However, it doesn't counter Kamui, because Minato did.




> A.Stand still...yup that worked real well for naruto itachi and killer bee against a single CT. Or when pain used it on naruto.


Yes, they were standing on the ground zero. They could have relocated.


> Sasuke was specifically targeting the tailed beasts with his CTs, which is why the others were not affected.


Uh, how does using bijuu as core change its working? The earth still tore open, and was attracted by the core (bijuu). Not quite strong the pull, is it eh? Also, how can you not see the massive pull of the _*Chibaku Tensei shower*_ that Madara created; they're standing just fine in the middle of it? Forget Madara's greater than Sasuke's Chibaku Tensei ( )- Here's the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei creating another moon. Once again, they're fine; faced no trouble.



> B.The CTs were already formed there, meaning they would have little no no gravitational pull, as for gaara, do we know how close he was to the action? Madara ripped an entire country out of the ground IIRC, gaara could have been miles away from those CTs and would thus be unaffected by the gravity.


Nope. Gaara was nearby, and you can clearly see the earth being pulled around him.



> C. The core would be surrounded by debris, the kamui shuriken would need to hit the core directly to take it out which would be extremely difficult,


Not really. A single shuriken creates a barrier-space several times larger than its own size; as long as the accumulated mass is not too big, the shuriken will take the core along with the debris.



> i highly doubt a kamui shuriken can take out a CT core on its own when it took a TBB, Yasaka magatama, and a kurama amped Rasenshuriken *together* to take out nagatos single CT, how does kakashi deal with 9 of them exactly?


By throwing 9 shurikens or more?  I'm sure, you realize durability is not a concern for Kamui-users; you can have a indestructible object, Kamui will warp it just fine.

... With that said, I don't think Chibaku Tensei is an issue - in that Kakashi needs to deal with it. Just let them form, and if Sasuke throws them at him, he can just... wait for it... phase through (  ), or dodge... or destroy even (you do know that Kakashi's Susano'o has a katana, like Sasuke's does?).



> This proves exactly nothing, obito hid inside a pillar...good for him??? A CT would take obito up into the sky along with his "genius" hiding spot...
> 
> "How about no" indeed.


You can't be serious. You can't just trap a guy with solid matter who can slip through... solid matter. 



> And if you are using this scan to try and say kakashi can simply slip out of a CT after he gets caught, id have to disagree with you. When has kamui ever shown the ability to defy gravity? Intangible or no, kamui has never granted anti gravity properties, meaning just because he cant be physically touched easily doesnt mean he is immune to gravity's cruel grasp. He may be able to slip through the debris thanks to kamui, but if he was trapped inside a meteor than it would be the gravity keeping him there, not just the rocks.


I'm sure, by now, you have realized –from the several instance cited above– that Chibaku Tensei will not pull humans. They can either relocate a little bit, or in Kakashi's case, simply stand there... even if he's _standing upon the rumbling ground_ (  :WOW), he can simply phase through the rocks being pulled above.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 23, 2016)

When the only pro Sasuke argument that people can come up with, is an enhanced Genjutsu that has failed to do anything significant besides doing what the sharingan already does but better(Aka controlling more tailed beasts) you know that people are starting to gasp at straws and get desperate.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Oct 23, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> All I see is uneducated assumptions that are disproved by the manga itself.
> 
> This nonexistant superior chakra did not help Sasuke one bit, as kakashi's performance in 1 chapter is better than what sasuke did throught the whole battle.


"Nonexistent superior chakra"? Looks like someone isnt paying attention. Its very clear sasuke has superior chakra compared to kakashi, its certainly thrown in our face enough. Your assumptions are what are disproved by the manga, im merely stating whats spoon fed to the reader in the manga and you claim ive made assumptions. Not exactly.


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Sasuke needs to look at something and swap places with it, Minato just activates it whenever he feels like it.


Looking at something, literally anything would suffice, it takes an instant for sasuke to swap places with something, its not something that takes up a great deal of his day or requires any great amount of effort or time, if it was he would have died literally every time he used it to save himself. Its nigh instant teleportation, which as ive shown a few times so far, is capable of avoiding kamui just fine. A mere glance at a pepple is all sasuke needs to do to avoid kamui, its not like hes gotta do the truffle shuffle before he can use ameno or anything.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Again, Sasuke had the opportunity to use this genjutsu against people less equipped than Kakashi to fight it and he didn't because it's worthless, against someone with decent genjutsu counter.
> 
> Did you see the state that Minato was in when he managed to barely warp away? and Sasuke is going to hve time to look around to find something to switch to? Lol
> 
> ...


Name one person sasuke could have used genjutsu on post rikudo amp who is weaker than kakashi, lets take a look at his rogue gallery post rikudo shall we? 

1st opponent. Juubi Madara Uchiha, indra reincarnation and the self proclaimed savior of this damn world who possesses rinnegan himself and is a jinchuriki

2nd Opponent. Kaguya Otsutsuki, the freaking progenitor of chakra and the literal mother of god

3rd opponent. Naruto Uzumaki, ashura reincarnation, inheritor of yang half of rikudo chakra, perfect jinchuriki of the strongest biju bar juubi, insane base chakra due to uzumaki lineage

4th opponent. a meteor...nuff said...

5th opponent. Kinshiki Otsutsuki. A foe, who along with his master, made kaguya quake in her boots

6th. Opponent. Momoshiki Otsutsuki w/Kinshiki absorbed. Scared the crap out of kaguya, and got a massive powerup from eating his servant, also possessed unique abilities that made only taijutsu effective agiainst him.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Do you have bad memory? I suggest you go re-read our previous posts to find the answers. Anybody can make a list full of stuff that has already been debunked and flawed full of assumptions.
> 
> I already addressed the stamina and intangibility plus kamui gg makes that list nothing but worthless?


Oh no my memory is just fine, you "debunking" my points is mainly you throwing hype in my face while ignoring that sasuke has better hype anyway. 

Kamui gg? To what exactly?



WorldsStrongest said:


> Biju murking genjutsu that requires no eye contact


Kamui doesnt help at all here, so you cant mean this when you say gg.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Ameno blitzing similar to FTG lvl 2 vs obito


Teleportation outflanks intangibility as per canon, so kamui gg cant be in reference to this.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Using Ameno to place kakashis face on sasukes chidori
> Using Ameno to throw kakashis face directly onto a susanoo blade
> Using Ameno to throw kakashis face into a kamui shuriken and having him dealt with via his own attack.


Show me a scan of kakashi reacting to instant teleportation into an attack path with sasuke in his blind spot like so. Until you do, 'kamui gg" doesnt trump "ameno gg" so kamui gg isnt addressed at these points either.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke neg diff countering kamui shuriken with simple V3 susanoo arrows


Susanoo arrows stalemate TSBs, so they can easily cause shuriken to "detonate" for lack of a better term, long before they can pose a risk to sasuke, so kamui gg isnt directed at this either.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke neg diff countering kamui shuriken via rikudo amped enton, when pre rikudo amp enton could harm the juubi with the aid of FRS


Same as above.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasukes superior rinnegan/rikudo PS beating kakashis MS PS.


Havent seen you bring up PS as far as i can recall, so i doubt you are referencing this when you say kamui gg either.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke easily outlasting kakashi


How does kakashi a non uchiha who has far less reserves than sasuke, spamming a taxing MS tech help him outlast sasuke exactly?



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke timing out kakashis very temporary rikudo amp and then lolstomping the sharingan-less fodder that it leaves behind.


Same as above.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> He simply snipes his head off the moment he slaps his hands together and stands still
> 
> Have any other technique left that you want me to low-diff?


He can ameno out of kakashis ingenious kamui snipe, as addressed before, teleportation essentially grants sasuke immunity to kamuis offensive capabilities and is fast enough to get around the defense of kamui as well.


----------



## Klue (Oct 23, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> I find this Rinnegan genjutsu GG case to be hilarious when it has been only used to immobilize tailed beasts, *who have no resilience to genjutsu at all*.



And where are you getting this idea that Bijuu are weak to genjutsu? It's the chakra powers Kishi was hyping up. Mangekyou level genjutsu. Power great enough to even force Bijuu into service.

Yal got this shit backwards.


That said, the "GG" argument is pointless. Kishi isn't going to write a battle between the two ending in a genjutsu one-shot. Same could be said for Kamui.

*Edit*: Oh wait, I'm in the battledome, aren't I?


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Oct 23, 2016)

Hasan said:


> I believe that's an assumption on your part; Six Paths chakra is the base chakra.


I think you have misunderstood me, by base chakra, i am referring to sasukes and kakashis chakre pre rikudo amp, when its as clear as night and day, sasuke has more, and its more powerful. Then they both got rikudo chakra, so you can effectively cancel that and compare their base stats, which the manga has done for us numerous times, and sasuke comes out far and above kakashi.


Hasan said:


> Actually, you did. You related quantity (beside other two) with Sasuke's genjutsu being effective against Kakashi. But no longer a concern, seeing you are entertaining the notion of them being _mutually exclusive._


Irrelevant anyway, sasuke both has greater chakra, and more powerful chakra than kakashi, whether they are mutually exclusive or not doesnt change the result.



Hasan said:


> We haven't been informed of the inner working on the Sharingan, and how it negates genjutsu. We only know it does.


We know that in order for you to break a genjutsu, you need to break through the illusion created with your own chakra and skill, and sasuke has greater and more potent chakra as stated many times in the manga, and skill than kakashi does considering their respective performances against tsukuyomi. Sasuke has better genjutsu feats, and a better medium to use his genjutsu(rinnegan)with than kakashis medium(MS) he is using to defend.

Sasuke Chakra (volume and potency)>kakashi chakra
Sasuke skill in genjutsu>kakashi skill in genjutsu
Rinnegan>>>MS



Hasan said:


> Is it safe to assume, you only read the "Genjutsu: Sharingan" part, and decided to reply without reading the rest? I just explained what makes the Rinnegan more powerful than the Mangekyou. By postulating "Rinnegan", you're essentially arguing that Sasuke can use Chibaku Tensei, therefore Kakashi can't deal with his genjutsu. No correlation? Exactly.


Nah i read it all, you claimed that the reason sasukes genjutsu so powerful was his rikudo chakra and that rinnegan basically had nothing to do with it. While i agree, to an extent, i have to disagree with the notion that casting a sharingan based genjutsu through the rinnegan wouldnt make it any stronger, considering sasuke cast susanoo through his rinnegan and it was amped to the point of being able to block mugen tsukuyomi, something that was stated to be due to his rinnegans power, ergo, a genjutsu gained at an earlier stage of sharingan when cast through the rinnegan, would be much stronger, just like susanoo.



Hasan said:


> 1. *Sasuke's genjutsu on Sakura is the same genjutsu that Kakashi used against those mooks*; the bijuu are put in genjutsu differently. 2. *Also, you do realize using genjutsu to knock someone unconscious ≠ the genjutsu is still active.* We're directly shown what Sasuke did to Sakura;* 3. both Sasuke and Kakashi fell unconscious from Tsukuyomi*; and finally *Kakashi knocking Sakura out by showing her a badly injured Sasuke.*


Bold 1 is baseless.
Bold 2 is irrelevant as when you are unconcious you are just as defenseless as when under an illusion, if not more so.
Bold 3 is not exactly a fair test, *sasuke was 12 yrs old* when that happened and had received little to no training at that point and only possessed a 2T, *kakashi was late 20s, possessed a 3T, and was an elite jonin*, yet they both *experienced the same result*, cut to 3 years later when sasuke breaks through a tsukuyomi with a 3T.
Bold 4 was against a fresh out of the academy genin fodder who had little to no training, cut to the chunin finals when she is good enough to catch on to a genjutsu at kabutos level capable of knocking out an entire stadium of people and be totally fine.





Hasan said:


> What implication does it have on Kakashi vs. Sasuke? Yeah, nothing. Neither is Kakashi going to annouce like Obito, nor is he required to rush the battle like Obito i.e. Minato's success is subject to circumstances that are not applicable here. This battle is also different in that Kakashi is in possession of the complete set i.e. Kamui is faster. If you think Amenotejikara counters Kamui, that's fine - make a case. However, it doesn't counter Kamui, because Minato did.


Kamui has never instantly transported someone to boxland making it a moot point minato was warned, it takes time to transport something with that ability, as shown literally every time he has used it on someone, physical contact or no it takes time, its fast but not instant, giving plenty of time for someone with sasukes reflexes who is also capable of teleportation to easily escape.



Hasan said:


> Yes, they were standing on the ground zero. They could have relocated.


Point was, standing still doesnt save you from gravity created by a CT.



Hasan said:


> Uh, how does using bijuu as core change its working?


Point was, they were not the target of the attack and were likely outside of its range as a result, and another point was what is kakashi going to do, if he is turned into the core the same way the bijus were?



Hasan said:


> Nope. Gaara was nearby, and you can clearly see the earth being pulled around him.


Earth being pulled up around him=/= being close to a CT when madara turned an entire country into a CT, there would be rubble flying into the air for miles around, it being near gaara doesnt mean he was close to the action.



Hasan said:


> Not really. A single shuriken creates a barrier-space several times larger than its own size; as long as the accumulated mass is not too big, the shuriken will take the core along with the debris.


My point was it would likely hit rubble on the way up, meaning it would never reach the core of a CT.



Hasan said:


> By throwing 9 shurikens or more?  I'm sure, you realize durability is not a concern for Kamui-users; you can have a indestructible object, Kamui will warp it just fine.
> 
> ... With that said, I don't think Chibaku Tensei is an issue - in that Kakashi needs to deal with it. Just let them form, and if Sasuke throws them at him, he can just... wait for it... phase through (  ), or dodge... or destroy even (you do know that Kakashi's Susano'o has a katana, like Sasuke's does?).


Has kakashi ever shown the ability to throw more than 2-4 shurikens? 
Durability doesnt need to be a concern when said kamui user doesnt have the ammo to defend himself
Hes gonna phase through gravity? 
And while he is attacking a CT that means he is solid, so sasuke gets close while kakashi is smashing a meteor and uses ameno to rip kakashi out of his susanoo and impale him on his sword/chidori/susanoo sword/susanoo arrow whatever sasuke is feeling at that particular moment



Hasan said:


> You can't be serious. You can't just trap a guy with solid matter who can slip through... solid matter.


You cant be serious... You cant avoid gravity, which is a non solid force, by avoiding solid objects



Hasan said:


> I'm sure, by now, you have realized –from the several instance cited above– that Chibaku Tensei will not pull humans. They can either relocate a little bit, or in Kakashi's case, simply stand there... even if he's _standing upon the rumbling ground_ ( :WOW), he can simply phase through the rocks being pulled above.


Phasing through the rocks doesnt grant him immunity to being pulled upwards by a CT because kamui doesnt grant one immunity from the laws of gravity or else obito would have used it to fly.
Standing still doesnt grant one immunity to being pulled upwards by a CT either, as shown on panel vs KN6 naruto, KCM naruto, Killer bee, and itachi


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 24, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I hope someone didn't say Kakashi can low difficulty Sasuke. Like legit someone must not even acknowledge portrayal in any facet of sense possible. i don't know what the hell portrayal did to some of you guys but y'all act like it's your worst enemy.



Based on feats, it would. Sasuke who couldn't do anything about Yomotsu grab, yet Kakashi's Kamui warped Yomotsu away before an ash bone could even get out. However, even so Ameno should be a perfect counter for it; much in the way Sasuke should have Ameno'd outta Yomotsu grab but didn't for plot reasons, likely. In fact, Kamui phasing and Ameno are perfect counters to each other. Ameno even has certain advantages because it can swap spaces. Between Six Paths double Kamui and Ameno, it's debatable on both ends. But in no way would Kakashi really low-diff any of the God tier Hagoromo bloodlines.


Klue said:


> And where are you getting this idea that Bijuu are weak to genjutsu? It's the chakra powers Kishi was hyping up. Mangekyou level genjutsu. Power great enough to even force Bijuu into service.
> 
> Yal got this shit backwards.
> 
> ...



Ehh, well the fact that tailed beasts could be controlled by Sharingan was made to be such a special case that I always took it to be one of those unfathomable plot devices. Well before the 'tailed beasts have feelings too' retcon.

Yeah you are.  welcome to the place where fanfics are made and more fanfics are made within fanfics. Fanficception.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 24, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I think you have misunderstood me, by base chakra, i am referring to sasukes and kakashis chakre pre rikudo amp, when its as clear as night and day, sasuke has more, and its more powerful. Then they both got rikudo chakra, so you can effectively cancel that and compare their base stats, which the manga has done for us numerous times, and sasuke comes out far and above kakashi.


I'm saying it's no longer valid, because in the end, they both have the same kind of chakra. There's no such thing as non-Rikudou base chakra anymore - to fall back on and compare. Sasuke is a Rikudou, and we're in the Rikudou territory now; pre-Rikudou states are irrelevant concerning this battle.



> Irrelevant anyway, sasuke both has greater chakra, and more powerful chakra than kakashi, whether they are mutually exclusive or not doesnt change the result.


A redundant response; you already made it clear. I only pointed out that because you originally thought it was relevant.



> We know that in order for you to break a genjutsu, you need to break through the illusion created with your own chakra and skill, and sasuke has greater and more potent chakra as stated many times in the manga, and skill than kakashi does considering their respective performances against tsukuyomi. Sasuke has better genjutsu feats, and a better medium to use his genjutsu(rinnegan)with than kakashis medium(MS) he is using to defend.
> 
> Sasuke Chakra (volume and potency)>kakashi chakra
> Sasuke skill in genjutsu>kakashi skill in genjutsu
> Rinnegan>>>MS


Refer back to the top comment, and the succeeding one as well.



> Nah i read it all, you claimed that the reason sasukes genjutsu so powerful was his rikudo chakra and that rinnegan basically had nothing to do with it. While i agree, to an extent, i have to disagree with the notion that casting a sharingan based genjutsu through the rinnegan wouldnt make it any stronger, considering sasuke cast susanoo through his rinnegan and it was amped to the point of being able to block mugen tsukuyomi, something that was stated to be due to his rinnegans power, ergo, a genjutsu gained at an earlier stage of sharingan when cast through the rinnegan, would be much stronger, just like susanoo.


Six Paths chakra lies at the root of Rinnegan - it's what making all those techniques more powerful. Rinnegan is an expression of this chakra. For illustrative purposes, Kakashi's Mangekyou Sharingan with Six Paths chakra = Rinnegan - Six Paths Technique.



> Bold 1 is baseless.


Earlier, you conceded they were the same - just that you assumed Kakashi's was far weaker, but functionally still the same. 



> Bold 2 is irrelevant as when you are unconcious you are just as defenseless as when under an illusion, if not more so.


You argued Kakashi couldn't dispel the genjutsu off Sakura. Well, duh - he can't dispel something which wasn't there. Sakura was just unconscious. 



> Bold 3 is not exactly a fair test, *sasuke was 12 yrs old* when that happened and had received little to no training at that point and only possessed a 2T, *kakashi was late 20s, possessed a 3T, and was an elite jonin*, yet they both *experienced the same result*, cut to 3 years later when sasuke breaks through a tsukuyomi with a 3T.
> Bold 4 was against a fresh out of the academy genin fodder who had little to no training, cut to the chunin finals when she is good enough to catch on to a genjutsu at kabutos level capable of knocking out an entire stadium of people and be totally fine.


You're missing my point: It's possible to fall unconscious _from the mental strain_, resulting from a genjutsu. Refer back to previous point, in relation to which, it was made.



> Kamui has never instantly transported someone to boxland making it a moot point minato was warned, it takes time to transport something with that ability, as shown literally every time he has used it on someone, physical contact or no it takes time, its fast but not instant, giving plenty of time for someone with sasukes reflexes who is also capable of teleportation to easily escape.


It doesn't matter. Minato with an instantaneous teleportation technique barely managed, following a delay caused by Obito ≠ Teleportation will always help. It happened under specific circumstances, thus can't be taken as proof of generalization - is all I'm saying. For Sasuke to replicate this with Amenotejikara, he has anticipate with 100% accuracy when Kakashi's going to use Kamui, and perfectly time his swap just before Kakashi actually executes Kamui. The left-eye Kamui requiring no physical contact makes the anticipation even more difficult, and a slight mismanagement on Sasuke's part is going to land his head in the Kamui Timespace. Then to top it off, with both eyes, Kamui is twice faster.

So, I ask once more, what common does Sasuke's situation have with Minato's? In fact, Sasuke *seems* hopelessly done for. There's multiple factors to consider, while Minato had it a lot easier. 



> Point was, they were not the target of the attack and were likely outside of its range as a result, and another point was what is kakashi going to do, if he is turned into the core the same way the bijus were?


If you're outside the range, then no worries. You said the pull from 9 Chibaku Tensei should be enormous to pull in Kakashi - he should be fine, if this is the magnitude of the pull... entertaining your misconception, that is.



> Earth being pulled up around him=/= being close to a CT when madara turned an entire country into a CT, there would be rubble flying into the air for miles around, it being near gaara doesnt mean he was close to the action.


Uh, yes he was. Did you read the previous chapters? Naruto and co. are on the same field where Guy vs. Madara happened, where Lee and Gaara were also present. Lee even asks Gaara, if it's alright to leave Naruto and others.



> My point was it would likely hit rubble on the way up, meaning it would never reach the core of a CT.


Hence, the purpose of aim.



> Has kakashi ever shown the ability to throw more than 2-4 shurikens?


What makes you think he can't? It's law of common sense, but considering this is BD at its finest, you can argue that he can throw 4 at a time. Well, swing arms - throw 4; swing arms once more - throw another 4. Problem solved. I recall, in Madara's threads, people weren't willing to believe that Madara could swing his Susano'o katana in a way that a katana is supposed to be swung. 



> Durability doesnt need to be a concern when said kamui user doesnt have the ammo to defend himself


Going off tangents, are we now? You doubted that Kamui could take out the core, when it required three powerful attacks... I'm sorry, you can enhance the core's protection to the point, where it would require 100x the firepower of the original 3 techniques... Kamui still takes it. Because Kamui doesn't destroy; *it's a transportation technique*.



> And while he is attacking a CT that means he is solid, so sasuke gets close while kakashi is smashing a meteor and uses ameno to rip kakashi out of his susanoo and impale him on his sword/chidori/susanoo sword/susanoo arrow whatever sasuke is feeling at that particular moment


*sigh* My point was Kakashi didn't need to worry about Chibaku Tensei - it's a non-issue to him. But nonetheless he has means to take them out, if he's bored enough.



> Point was, standing still doesnt save you from gravity created by a CT.





> Hes gonna phase through gravity?





> You cant be serious... You cant avoid gravity, which is a non solid force, by avoiding solid objects





> Phasing through the rocks doesnt grant him immunity to being pulled upwards by a CT because kamui doesnt grant one immunity from the laws of gravity or else obito would have used it to fly.
> Standing still doesnt grant one immunity to being pulled upwards by a CT either, as shown on panel vs KN6 naruto, KCM naruto, Killer bee, and itachi


It's Kakashi _genius_ plan, because he can... you know... afford it by simply allowing the rocks beneath to slip through him. Can Itachi, Naruto or Bee slip through rocks? No. They got carried, _*because they were standing upon the chunks being pulled*_. 


I'm genuinely shocked that we're wasting our time discussing this.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Oct 24, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> This is a reply I would expect from someone who reads the manga ignorantly and doesn't look at character portrayals objectively.



what does potrayal have to do with power differences


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 24, 2016)

why is kakashi so good


----------

