# Team Korra vs Team Azula



## Wan (Oct 9, 2014)

Korra, Mako, Bolin, and Asami 

vs

Azula, Ty Lee, and Mai

Round 1:  No comet power, Korra is restricted from using the Avatar State
Round 2:  Comet power is enabled for Azula only, Korra can use the Avatar State
Round 3:  Comet power is enabled for all firebenders.  Korra can use the Avatar State.

Battle takes place on Laghima's Peak.  All combatants are at their peak physical and mental conditions (meaning neither Azula nor Korra are mental wrecks).  Which side wins?


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## Volt manta (Oct 9, 2014)

Scenario 1: Ty lee disables most of the team while they focus on the benders, then they all gang up on who's left.
Scenario 2: Comet power Azula> anything Korra's done. Team 2 loses.
Scenario 3: Team 1, since the only relevant threat is Azula, who'll be spending all of her time on Korra.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 9, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Scenario 1: Ty lee disables most of the team while they focus on the benders, then they all gang up on who's left.
> Scenario 2: Comet power Azula> anything Korra's done. Team 2 loses.
> Scenario 3: Team 1, since the only relevant threat is Azula, who'll be spending all of her time on Korra.



It's kind of hard to gauge how strong Korra's group's firebending would be with the comet (considering firebending in LoK is pretty weak). Korra's team  might have a better chance in scenario 3, but I could still see Azula holding off Korra while Ty Lee disables at least Bolin and Mai disables Asami and then they'd gang up on the buffed Mako and later Korra. Avatar State + Comet makes it tricky though.

I agree with the rest though


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## Volt manta (Oct 9, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> It's kind of hard to gauge how strong Korra's group's firebending would be with the comet (considering firebending in LoK is pretty weak). Korra's team  might have a better chance in scenario 3, but I could still see Azula holding off Korra while Ty Lee disables at least Bolin and Mai disables Asami and then they'd gang up on the buffed Mako and later Korra. Avatar State + Comet makes it tricky though.
> 
> I agree with the rest though



Is Mai better than Asami? I know she has range advantage, but is it enough to win?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 9, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Is Mai better than Asami? I know she has range advantage, but is it enough to win?



I'd say she wins unless she lets Asami get close with the stun glove, given her use of ranged weapons and decent agility she could probably play the range game and pick her off.


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## shade0180 (Oct 9, 2014)

Basically Ty lee is the game changer in this match?  except for the 3rd round


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## Rivers (Oct 9, 2014)

Team Korra definitely takes Scenario 3.

Ill think about the rest of the scenarios.


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## Volt manta (Oct 9, 2014)

shade0180 said:


> Basically Ty lee is the game changer in this match?  except for the 3rd round



Essentially; she only ever had trouble keeping up with Aang. In one of her fight scenes, she dropped ten Dai Li agents before the first ones fell to the ground,   She should be more than capable of handling anybody in scenario 1, and anybody not Korra in scenario 2. Scenario 3 makes it more likely she'll be taken out by AOE before she can disable anyone.


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## Wan (Oct 9, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> It's kind of hard to gauge how strong Korra's group's firebending would be with the comet (considering firebending in LoK is pretty weak). Korra's team  might have a better chance in scenario 3, but I could still see Azula holding off Korra while Ty Lee disables at least Bolin and Mai disables Asami and then they'd gang up on the buffed Mako and later Korra. Avatar State + Comet makes it tricky though.
> 
> I agree with the rest though



Firebending in LoK is pretty weak?

[YOUTUBE]ehkVYL_1ZmQ[/YOUTUBE]



And that's without getting into Avatar State-amplified firebending for Korra.

Asami would be at a disadvantage against Mai, as Asami doesn't have feats dealing with ranged attacks, but Bolin could counter Mai's daggers with earthbending defenses while Asami keeps Ty Lee occupied.  Asami was able to 'son' the Equalist lieutenant and took out a group of chi blockers.

[YOUTUBE]yP1YQghD2ug[/YOUTUBE]



Volt manta said:


> Essentially; she only ever had trouble keeping up with Aang. In one of her fight scenes, she dropped ten Dai Li agents before the first ones fell to the ground,   She should be more than capable of handling anybody in scenario 1, and anybody not Korra in scenario 2. Scenario 3 makes it more likely she'll be taken out by AOE before she can disable anyone.



Ty Lee never faced Dai Li agents; she faced a group of "elite earthbenders" called the Terra Team, but they never actually did anything to establish themselves as better than fodder, or at all skilled at close combat.  Edit: Also, to say that she only ever had trouble keeping up with Aang is inaccurate.  She never actually fought Aang, and Suki was able to keep up with her in "The Boiling Rock".


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 9, 2014)

Wan said:


> Firebending in LoK is pretty weak?
> 
> [YOUTUBE]ehkVYL_1ZmQ[/YOUTUBE]



Fair enough, but what about other than Korra?


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## Wan (Oct 9, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Fair enough, but what about other than Korra?



Here's a feat for Mako, I don't have a video of it though:


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## Kurou (Oct 9, 2014)

Lava Bending


GG's


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## Volt manta (Oct 9, 2014)

Wan said:


> Firebending in LoK is pretty weak?
> 
> [YOUTUBE]ehkVYL_1ZmQ[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> ...


She did fight him, on top of the tank that was attempting to drill into Ba Sing Sei. Of course, he easily dodged all of her techniques, so whether you want to classify it as a fight is up to you.

And Suki had already seen her techniques at that point.. In their second fight, despite knowing Ty Lee's style, she still couldn't gain ground.

Also of note; Ty lee is as fast or faster than Azula boosting with fire jets


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## Amae (Oct 9, 2014)

You should've put Zuko in the match, but that's probably too much of an advantage.

Ty Lee took more than a dozen members of the Terra Team out. Despite their only showing being the aforementioned stomp, they were still classified as "elite earthbenders" and were Ba Sing Se's first line of defense. Her agility and fighting prowess is going land a smooth advantage over Asami despite the latter's OHKO shock glove (Asami has taken out a chi-blocker, but clearly none of them are as impressive as Ty Lee) and Bolin (he's slow and his record against chi-blockers isn't great - I recall the lieutenant kicking his ass early in the show and Bolin's only improvement seems to be becoming a lava bender).

Mai was taking out The Boiling Rock firebending guards with ease, avoiding their fire blasts and pining them to steel walls with ease (with what can only be possible with superhuman strength as far as I know) - getting hit with one of those would pre be deadly. The least effective member of her team, but worth more than Asami.

S1: Team Azula - 6/10

Comet enhanced Azula can most certainly be scaled to Combustion Man's blasts (Zuko and her own feats during the Agni Kai's aren't shabby either), Korra's destructive feats in the Avatar State aren't really coming to mind

S2: Team Azula - 7-8/10

S3: Team Korra - 7/10


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## Pocalypse (Oct 9, 2014)

I think Mai is like, totally irrelevant here. She doesn't exactly have much power, only long range attacks but then again I can't remember much of her fighting but she can likely take out Asami with her range. It would be dangerous for Bolin to use any bending to try and defend because then Ty lee can chi block him who she is even faster and more agile than Azula, and Azula isn't a slow cookie herself. Azula and Ty Lee seem the most relevant in the team. They take scenario 1 but lose the other 2 scenarios due to Avatar State. Ty Lee is the biggest game changer here, she can easily screw Mako and Bolin up.


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## Gunners (Oct 9, 2014)

Team Korra would win. I think she'd beat Azula one and one, but that is irrelevant as she only needs to hold her off long enough for Mako, Bolin and Asami to defeat Ty Lee and Mai.


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## Rivers (Oct 9, 2014)

Amae said:


> Korra's destructive feats in the Avatar State aren't really coming to mind.


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## Pocalypse (Oct 9, 2014)

I like how Azula is always used for Avatar battles

She really is the most bad ass character


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## Amae (Oct 9, 2014)

Rivers said:


>


S2 and S3: Team Korra - 9-10/10

I erred on that to begin with, which is why I suggested to add Zuko. Given Aang completely Ozai in the Avatar State, it make no real difference.


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## Wan (Oct 9, 2014)

I should note that Korra gets a couple skins of water on her, because there's no source of water at the location.



Lucia said:


> Lava Bending
> 
> 
> GG's



It's not _that_ easy.  Bolin doesn't have the same scale of feats with lavabending that Ghazan does.



Volt manta said:


> She did fight him, on top of the tank that was attempting to drill into Ba Sing Sei. Of course, he easily dodged all of her techniques, so whether you want to classify it as a fight is up to you.
> 
> And Suki had already seen her techniques at that point.. In their second fight, despite knowing Ty Lee's style, she still couldn't gain ground.
> 
> Also of note; Ty lee is as fast or faster than Azula boosting with fire jets



Ty Lee didn't fight Aang on top of the drill, Azula did.

Suki had seen her techniques before, but you could as easily say that Ty Lee couldn't gain ground on Suki.  Asami has experience specifically fighting chi blockers herself.

Being as fast as Azula on jets is only significant if you can separately establish how fast Azula is on her jets.  Otherwise you could turn it around and say that Azula with her jets is as slow as Ty Lee.



Amae said:


> You should've put Zuko in the match, but that's probably too much of an advantage.



The point of the thread is that Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee as a team had the old Team Avatar -- Aang, Katara, Toph, and Sokka -- on the run at one point in the series, so it would be interesting to see the new Team Avatar go up against them.



> Ty Lee took more than a dozen members of the Terra Team out. Despite their only showing being the aforementioned stomp, they were still classified as "elite earthbenders" and were Ba Sing Se's first line of defense. Her agility and fighting prowess is going land a smooth advantage over Asami despite the latter's OHKO shock glove (Asami has taken out a chi-blocker, but clearly none of them are as impressive as Ty Lee) and Bolin (he's slow and his record against chi-blockers isn't great - I recall the lieutenant kicking his ass early in the show and Bolin's only improvement seems to be becoming a lava bender).
> 
> Mai was taking out The Boiling Rock firebending guards with ease, avoiding their fire blasts and pining them to steel walls with ease (with what can only be possible with superhuman strength as far as I know) - getting hit with one of those would pre be deadly. The least effective member of her team, but worth more than Asami.



And Zhao was considered a firebending master, doesn't stop him from being considered little better than fodder.  You can say that Asami's never taken out a chi blocker as good as Ty Lee, but Ty Lee's never taken out a martial artist as good as Asami.  The one time Ty Lee was shown fighting someone with significant martial arts prowess of her own, Suki, she was stopped short.

Mai took out the Boiling Rock guards, but again, they were a bunch of fodder.  They didn't really have a way to protect themselves from Mai's daggers and darts, while Bolin can raise an earth wall to protect himself.

When it comes down to it, Ty Lee and Mai have some impressive showings, but most of it comes down to taking out groups of fodder.  



> Comet enhanced Azula can most certainly be scaled to Combustion Man's blasts (Zuko and her own feats during the Agni Kai's aren't shabby either),



 Can it?  They're different abilities.  We shouldn't really _need_ to scale Azula's comet abilities anyways, we saw what she can do with Sozin's Comet. 



Pocalypse said:


> I think Mai is like, totally irrelevant here. She doesn't exactly have much power, only long range attacks but then again I can't remember much of her fighting but she can likely take out Asami with her range. It would be dangerous for Bolin to use any bending to try and defend because then Ty lee can chi block him who she is even faster and more agile than Azula, and Azula isn't a slow cookie herself. Azula and Ty Lee seem the most relevant in the team. They take scenario 1 but lose the other 2 scenarios due to Avatar State. Ty Lee is the biggest game changer here, she can easily screw Mako and Bolin up.



I'm not really seeing where people are coming from with saying "Ty Lee is the biggest game changer".  Team Korra has their own capable martial artist with a OHKO method, and they even already have experience fighting chi blocker enemies.


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## Rivers (Oct 9, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> I like how Azula is always used for Avatar battles



Place holding Kuvira vs Azula at the end of this book.


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## Pocalypse (Oct 9, 2014)

Wan said:


> I'm not really seeing where people are coming from with saying "Ty Lee is the biggest game changer".  Team Korra has their own capable martial artist with a OHKO method, and they even already have experience fighting chi blocker enemies.



Because we know what we're on about? ck 

Ty Lee is faster than Mako and Bolin, they won't have the time to react to her speed and hits. Plus Ty Lee is acrobatic as shit, it will be hard to land hits on her. Also you are implying those chi blocker enemies are on the level of Ty Lee. Ty Lee wrote that shit.



Rivers said:


> Place holding Kuvira vs Azula at the end of this book.



Only I should make that thread. I like Kuvira since she reminds me a bit of Azula ck


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## Wan (Oct 9, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Ty Lee is faster than Mako and Bolin, they won't have the time to react to her speed and hits.



Based on?



> Plus Ty Lee is acrobatic as shit, it will be hard to land hits on her. Also you are implying those chi blocker enemies are on the level of Ty Lee. Ty Lee wrote that shit.



Excellent point on Ty Lee's acrobatics; she's probably the most acrobatic person in the whole series.  Even if Asami can match her in close combat, Ty Lee has that advantage.  So it's conceivable that she could keep away from Asami long enough to take out Mako and Bolin; being quick enough to take out both seems like a bit of a stretch though.

No, the Equalist chi blockers are not on the level of Ty Lee, but the fact that Team Korra has experience with them ruins the element of surprise that she usually has when facing enemies.



> Only I should make that thread. I like Kuvira since she reminds me a bit of Azula



Let's hold our horses on that until Season 4 wraps up.

And could you please stop with the incessant : fuck images?  It kind of makes your posts an eyesore.


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## Volt manta (Oct 9, 2014)

Wan said:


> Based on?



Utterly blitzes Katara at 19:30


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## Pocalypse (Oct 9, 2014)

Wan said:


> Based on?



Based on Mako and Bolin, especially Bolin being a fat slow ass and Ty Lee generally being faster than Azula who in turn is faster than either Mako and Bolin.

I'll bring feats up tomorrow but I definitely know she has blitzed people. To tired now, bye Wan, btw I see Azula has grown you as well since you use her as a benchmark for Avatar battles, Wan ck



> Excellent point on Ty Lee's acrobatics; she's probably the most acrobatic person in the whole series.  Even if Asami can match her in close combat, Ty Lee has that advantage.  So it's conceivable that she could keep away from Asami long enough to take out Mako and Bolin; being quick enough to take out both seems like a bit of a stretch though.
> 
> No, the Equalist chi blockers are not on the level of Ty Lee, but the fact that Team Korra has experience with them ruins the element of surprise that she usually has when facing enemies.



Just because they know Ty lee is a chi blocker doesn't mean they have the capacity and the ability to stop themselves from getting hit. That's just like Bolin has knowledge of Azula's fire bending, but that won't stop her from incinerating him. Ty Lee takes Bolin out the easiest, then focuses on Mako. 



> And could you please stop with the incessant : fuck images?  It kind of makes your posts an eyesore.



No ck


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## Wan (Oct 9, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Utterly blitzes Katara at 19:30



She does, but Katara was also not expecting to be attacked at that moment.  Earlier in "The Chase", Katara was able to react to Ty Lee and avoid being taken down by her so quickly.


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## Rivers (Oct 9, 2014)

So that's the difference between coming into a match with or without knowledge...


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## Gibbs (Oct 9, 2014)

Would the comet affect Bolin's lavabending?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 9, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Would the comet affect Bolin's lavabending?



Since it's technically earth bending (of some sort) probably not. His lavabending wasn't very good though so I don't see it helping him out in most cases since he was mostly bending existing lava.


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## Wan (Oct 9, 2014)

Yeah, I don't see a reason for Sozin's Comet to amplify lavabending.  Bolin doesn't have many offensive feats with lavabending either way; his fight with Ghazan was mostly playing defense, solidifying Ghazan's lava.  Bolin can make and attack with lava, but he's not a gamechanger like Ghazan would be with how he can turn the whole local area into lava.


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## Volt manta (Oct 9, 2014)

Wan said:


> She does, but Katara was also not expecting to be attacked at that moment.  Earlier in "The Chase", Katara was able to react to Ty Lee and avoid being taken down by her so quickly.



Forgot my last post. we at least know that Azula's fire jets are faster than her movement speed because she uses them for greater speed and agility. Otherwise, why use them? 

That fight just proves my point, by the way. Ty Lee outmaneuvered her effortlessly, and even gets an under the arm shot at :53 She never got hit by a single one of Katara's attacks.



By the time anyone figures out she's not a bender, they'll have been disabled.


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## Amae (Oct 9, 2014)

Wan said:


> The point of the thread is that Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee as a team  ....


That's obvious, but a more balanced match is preferable even if only for a single scenario (of which you have many).



> When it comes down to it, Ty Lee and Mai have some impressive showings, but most of it comes down to taking out groups of fodder.


That's irrelevant if their actual showings provide enough information to conclude they can take out bigger fish. Ty Lee has also taken out Katara (elemt nof surprise withstanding) and had her on the ropes before. Asami has no feat matching taking out a group of firebenders like Mai and no experience countering long range weaponry.



> Can it?  They're different abilities.  We shouldn't really _need_ to scale Azula's comet abilities anyways, we saw what she can do with Sozin's Comet.


Fire bending is fueled by chi, no matter the variant of it used. Azula, enhanced by Sozin's Comet, presumably has more at her disposal than CM and can replicate the destructive force of his attacks. Simple as shit. CM has more concrete destructive feats than both comet enhanced Zuko and Azula, likely a city block or higher level feat in his first appearance.



> I'm not really seeing where people are coming from with saying "Ty Lee is the biggest game changer".


Ty Lee's capable of jumping like 10+ meters into the air and is, like you said, the most arcobatic character shown in the series. She's faster than a character (Azula) that was too fast for Aang to pin down, can recover in mid air from an air bending attack,


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## Wan (Oct 9, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Forgot my last post. we at least know that Azula's fire jets are faster than her movement speed because she uses them for greater speed and agility. Otherwise, why use them?
> 
> That fight just proves my point, by the way. Ty Lee outmaneuvered her effortlessly, and even gets an under the arm shot at :53 She never got hit by a single one of Katara's attacks.



In the specific case in the Boiling Rock, Azula would have used them because she's not as skilled as Ty Lee is in order to be able to balance on the line and run along it.  Ty Lee being able to run on that line is an amazing feat already, whether or not there's any superhuman speed involved.

If your point is that Ty Lee _blitzed_ Katara, then no, it doesn't prove your point.  If your point is that Ty Lee is simply more agile than Katara, sure, but Katara isn't a particularly agile character to begin with.



> By the time anyone figures out she's not a bender, they'll have been disabled.



And by the time Ty Lee figures out that Asami's glove can OHKO her, she'll have been zapped. Or Azula or Mai will have been zapped. Lack of knowledge hurts Team Azula as much as it hurts Team Korra.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 9, 2014)

Wan said:


> And by the time Ty Lee figures out that Asami's glove can OHKO her, she'll have been zapped. Or Azula or Mai will have been zapped. Lack of knowledge hurts Team Azula as much as it hurts Team Korra.



Asami isn't beating anyone here. Mai and Azula kill her long range and Ty Lee is too quick for her. She's basically fodder in this match


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## Wan (Oct 9, 2014)

Amae said:


> That's irrelevant if their actual showings provide enough information to conclude they can take out bigger fish. Ty Lee has also taken out Katara. Asami has no feat matching taking out a group of firebenders like Mai and no experience counter long range weaponry.



Katara's never shown herself to be of any use in close combat.  Asami > Lieutenant, who is at least decent at close combat.



> Fire bending is fueled by chi, no matter the variant of it used. Azula, enhanced by Sozin's Comet, presumably has more at her disposal than CM and can replicate the destructive force of his attacks. Simple as shit. CM has more concrete destructive feats than both comet enhanced Zuko and Azula, *likely a city block or higher level feat in his first appearance.*



 Elaborate, please...



MusubiKazesaru said:


> Asami isn't beating anyone here. Mai and Azula kill her long range and Ty Lee is too quick for her. She's basically fodder in this match



And Korra, Mako, and Bolin don't kill Ty Lee long range because...?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 9, 2014)

Wan said:


> And Korra, Mako, and Bolin don't kill Ty Lee long range because...?



Too busy fighting Azula or they've already been beaten by Ty Lee/Azula. Korra and maybe Mako (with lightning) are the only ones with a good shot against her. As said above Mai can handle her alone.


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## Amae (Oct 10, 2014)

Wan said:


> Elaborate, please...


 a  large  raised , the remaining chunks being sent at high velocity due to the kinetic energy of his blast. City block is a guesstimate based on my recollection of the wall's size, but it would be best to properly evaluate it.


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## Wan (Oct 10, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Too busy fighting Azula or they've already been beaten by Ty Lee/Azula. Korra and maybe Mako (with lightning) are the only ones with a good shot against her. As said above Mai can handle her alone.



And Azula and Mai wouldn't be too busy fighting Bolin, Korra, and Mako to kill Asami at long range?  Already being beaten by Ty Lee...is not an argument for what they can't take out _Ty Lee_.  Bolin can arguably handle Mai alone himself.

Edit:



Amae said:


> a  large  raised , the remaining chunks being sent at high velocity due to the kinetic energy of his blast. City block is a guesstimate based on my recollection of the wall's size, but it would be best to properly evaluate it.



[youtube]00VIQt5kXYQ[/youtube]

At _best_, I would call it a large building buster, but even that seems like a stretch.


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## Rivers (Oct 10, 2014)

Team Korra has the advantage of making solid static defenses for the entire team, in which only Azula from her side actually has the ability to take down. 

While Korra and Azula do their thing over somewhere else, Bolin Earthbends defensive Walls where he and Mako unload on Ty Lee and Mai from distance, protecting Asami at the same time.

Now Mai and Ty Lee have to continual dodge out in the open, while they run through _no man's land_ trying to flank or aim around Earthbended walls - as Bolin aim's precisions shots (ala against P'Li) and Mako scorches a burning moat of fire from every piece of earth between him and the girls.

​


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## Volt manta (Oct 10, 2014)

Wan said:


> And Azula and Mai wouldn't be too busy fighting Bolin, Korra, and Mako to kill Asami at long range?  Already being beaten by Ty Lee...is not an argument for what they can't take out _Ty Lee_.  Bolin can arguably handle Mai alone himself.



It's going to take both Mako and Korra fighting Azula at the same time to take Azula; She has too much power for the former, too much skill for and lightning(which can't be redirected) for the latter. If it's only one of them, she quickly subdues them and takes out the others relatively quickly.

That leaves Bolin and Asami vs Ty Lee and Mai. Asami is honestly a non-factor here, she doesn't have range ability to deal with Mai or the agility to dodge her hits, and Ty Lee completely outclasses her in speed and agility, which is important when your main weapon requires you to touch someone with it. Whoever wins the fight with Asami joins the other in taking out Bolin.

From there, they can either take Mako or Korra out, or provide enough of a distraction to where Azula manages to do it.


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## Wan (Oct 10, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> It's going to take both Mako and Korra fighting Azula at the same time to take Azula; She has too much power for the former, too much skill for and lightning(which can't be redirected) for the latter. If it's only one of them, she quickly subdues them and takes out the others relatively quickly.



Azula having more power than Mako is debatable, with the feat that I posted for him earlier.  Being more skilled than Korra is also debatable; Korra's pretty dang skilled in her own right, and she has all the elements at her disposal.  Lightning is arguable because she doesn't seem to use in in the middle of battle.  Outside of Sozin's Comet, she only used it three times in an actual fight:


In "The Avatar State" when Zuko was already down; this left her open to Iroh blindsiding her and redirecting it.
In "The Chase" to blast through a wall that Toph raised while she was pursuing Team Avatar
"Crossroads of Destiny", when she hit Aang from behind without him having a chance to defend.

Compare that to how many fights she _didn't_ use lightning, or didn't use lightning when she was about to lose:


She doesn't use lightning in the fight in "Return to Omashu".
She doesn't use lightning in the fight at the end of "The Chase".
She doesn't use lightning in the fight in "The Drill".
She doesn't use lightning in the fight in "Crossroads of Destiny" against Katara even as Katara is about to beat her; Zuko had to bail her ass out.
She didn't use lightning in "The Southern Raiders", although this could have been because she was aware Zuko knew lightning redirection at that point.

So either Azula is incompetent and didn't use lightning in opportunities where it would have been advantageous to her, or their has to be a reason why she refrains.  It could be from her experience in "The Avatar State": she knows that the time it takes to charge lightning leaves her open to attack, so she only uses it when there's no way an enemy can exploit that opening, ie to break through the wall in "The Chase" and to bring down Aang in "Crossroads of Destiny."

Mako actually has _more_ instances of using lightning in combat than Azula (outside of Sozin's Comet"):


Twice when chasing the Equalists in "When Extremes Meet"
Twice when fighting Amon in "Endgame"
Once fighting the spirits in "Light in the Dark"
Once fighting Ming Hua in "Venom of the Red Lotus"

So Mako has twice as many examples of using lightning in combat than Azula, or 1 more fight sequence where he's used it.  If anything, it is more likely that _Azula_ goes down to _Mako's_ lightning than Korra goes down to Azula's.  Azula's not going to subdue either Mako or Korra quickly.



> That leaves Bolin and Asami vs Ty Lee and Mai. Asami is honestly a non-factor here, she doesn't have range ability to deal with Mai or the agility to dodge her hits, and Ty Lee completely outclasses her in speed and agility, which is important when your main weapon requires you to touch someone with it. Whoever wins the fight with Asami joins the other in taking out Bolin.
> 
> From there, they can either take Mako or Korra out, or provide enough of a distraction to where Azula manages to do it



Asami does have agility, so it's not like she's going to be an easy target for Mai, and again, taking down the Lieutenant quickly and having a moment of wiping the floor with fodder much like Mai and Ty Lee have means that Ty Lee does not outclass Asami in close combat speed and agility.  Asami's the biggest direct threat to Ty Lee, really, since Ty Lee's style of getting in close is exactly what Asami would want her to do.


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## Volt manta (Oct 10, 2014)

Wan said:


> Azula having more power than Mako is debatable, with the feat that I posted for him earlier.  Being more skilled than Korra is also debatable; Korra's pretty dang skilled in her own right, and she has all the elements at her disposal.  Lightning is arguable because she doesn't seem to use in in the middle of battle.  Outside of Sozin's Comet, she only used it three times in an actual fight:
> 
> 
> In "The Avatar State" when Zuko was already down; this left her open to Iroh blindsiding her and redirecting it.
> ...



Default is bloodlusted; it doesn't really matter why she doesn't use it, only that she can.

Korra has training; but noy much in the way of skill; her fights tend to rely on winning through overwhelming force as opposed to style

Also, you keep saying Asami> Ty Lee, when that's not true in the slightest. Asami really has nothing that even slightly suggests she has the speed or agility to handle Ty Lee in close combat.


----------



## Wan (Oct 10, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Default is bloodlusted; it doesn't really matter why she doesn't use it, only that she can.
> 
> Korra has training; but noy much in the way of skill; her fights tend to rely on winning through overwhelming force as opposed to style.



"Bloodlust" doesn't override a character's usual tactics and strategy, it just gives them a reason to fight.  It wouldn't make a difference for Azula, unless you want to suggest that at any point Azula was holding back from killing her opponents in order to win.

Korra's style does rely on force, but she needs skill in order to be able to use that force effectively in the first place.



> Also, you keep saying Asami> Ty Lee, when that's not true in the slightest. Asami really has nothing that even slightly suggests she has the speed or agility to handle Ty Lee in close combat.



I'm not necessarily saying Asami is _better_ than Ty Lee; they are at least even in close quarters combat. Do you have a counterpoint to the facts that Asami is better than the Lieutenant and Equalist chi blockers, who are at least somewhat decent at close quarters combat, while Ty Lee's feats amount to being more agile than Katara and a bunch of earthbenders, who have no notable skill in close quarters combat?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 10, 2014)

Wan said:


> "Bloodlust" doesn't override a character's usual tactics and strategy, it just gives them a reason to fight.  It wouldn't make a difference for Azula, unless you want to suggest that at any point Azula was holding back from killing her opponents in order to win.
> 
> Korra's style does rely on force, but she needs skill in order to be able to use that force effectively in the first place.
> 
> ...



Bloodlust means they'll do whatever it takes to win and if they already have good tactics and such then they'll use them to their utmost. 

and saying Asami and Ty Lee are even in CQC is absolutely absurd, they're tiers apart in both that and in general as well


----------



## Wan (Oct 10, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Bloodlust means they'll do whatever it takes to win and if they already have good tactics and such then they'll use them to their utmost.



And for Azula, her good tactics appear to not involve lightning usually.  Unless you're going to claim that Azula's tactics in-universe aren't good to begin with.  If Azula does use lightning, it's not a guarantee of success -- Mako can redirect it, Korra could dodge it, and if both are fighting her then it leaves a critical opening that Korra or Mako could exploit.



> and saying Asami and Ty Lee are even in CQC is absolutely absurd, they're tiers apart in both that and in general as well



Waiting on that counter point.


----------



## TheSweetFleshofDeath (Oct 10, 2014)

> Mako can redirect it



Mako redirected an electrical current, once.  From what we seen, and at the speed he did that feat at I doubt he can redirect lightning.


----------



## Volt manta (Oct 10, 2014)

Wan said:


> And for Azula, her good tactics appear to not involve lightning usually.  Unless you're going to claim that Azula's tactics in-universe aren't good to begin with.  If Azula does use lightning, it's not a guarantee of success -- Mako can redirect it, Korra could dodge it, and if both are fighting her then it leaves a critical opening that Korra or Mako could exploit.
> 
> 
> 
> Waiting on that counter point.



When Asami leaps dozens of meters from a starting position, outmanuvers a non fodder bender and blitzes a non fodder warrior:


blitzes said bender again(Katara couldn't react; she had enough time and sense of mind to draw her water, but not enough to make the movements)


Outruns a fire bender on jets, and still manages to keep up with someone who knows her style and is deliberately trying to counter her:


Or intercepts _fucking_ Azula, from several feet away, in the middle of an attack:


We have a fight. Heck, look at this tribute. In her fight with the earth agents, she's already behind them between the time they pull up rocks and the time they throw them out. In seconds, she puts at least 10 average to better than average benders on the ground, maybe more.


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## Wan (Oct 10, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> When Asami leaps dozens of meters from a starting position, outmanuvers a non fodder bender and blitzes a non fodder warrior:
> 
> 
> blitzes said bender again(Katara couldn't react; she had enough time and sense of mind to draw her water, but not enough to make the movements)
> ...



We're going in circles here.


Katara and Sokka aren't fodder, but there's nothing to establish (at that point) that they're better at close quarters combat than the Lieutenant or Equalist chi blockers.  Ty Lee's acrobatics are good, but we're talking about close quarters combat, not acrobatics.
The fact that Ty Lee failed to blitz Katara in the prior scene indicates that surprise was more a factor here than just Ty Lee's speed.  And again, Katara has no close quarters combat prowess of her own.
Again, going faster than Azula here is only significant if you can prove how fast Azula was going to begin with.  And yes, Ty Lee "kept up" with Suki.  But Suki just as much kept up with her.  So that establishes that Ty Lee isn't some unapproachable martial artist.
She blindsided Azula.
You're overstating that feat, the group that Ty Lee is shown bringing down so quickly consisted of 6 earthbenders.  She probably took out more, but it could have taken more than a few seconds.  And again, they're not specialists in close quarters combat, they're earthbenders.  This is relevant in saying how Ty Lee might fare against Bolin, but not against Asami.


----------



## Volt manta (Oct 10, 2014)

Wan said:


> We're going in circles here.
> 
> 
> Katara and Sokka aren't fodder, but there's nothing to establish (at that point) that they're better at close quarters combat than the Lieutenant or Equalist chi blockers.  Ty Lee's acrobatics are good, but we're talking about close quarters combat, not acrobatics.
> ...



Reactions are reactions, Wan, in CQC or otherwise. Whether or not they could fight her doesn't matter, since she was so much faster than all of these people they couldn't do anything to fight back. Most of the people above weren't even facing her when she dropped them.

We see new and improved Suki at 2:00. This is the person that Ty Lee kept up with.


And blindsiding doesn't matter. Azula raises her arm to lightning bend(and yes, that stance is lightningbending), and Ty Lee crosses several feets worth of distance and disables her before her arm is fully raised. For people, it takes longer to raise their arm then it does to move several feet, so that makes her reactions greater than Azula's.

Anyways, relevant videos for Asami, since you haven't posted any
The "fight" with the lieutenant at 21:40:


The fight with the "chi blockers" at 36:35


It's an actual fight this time. It's not unimpressive, but she took 2 by surprise. All of them managed to react to her, and one of them even managed to arm lock her before she disabled him. Their... uh...fighting experience amounts to punches and kicks, so about the basic level of any avatar thug. It's not really a stretch to say Sokka is better at fighting than they are; if you're saying they're better than Suki, or that taking them out equates to her being better than or equal to her, you're just being ridiculous. You could take the hype of them supposedly being chi blockers(all evidence to the contrary), but then you'd have to take the hype of the earth agents too.


----------



## Wan (Oct 10, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Reactions are reactions, Wan, in CQC or otherwise. Whether or not they could fight her doesn't matter, since she was so much faster than all of these people they couldn't do anything to fight back. Most of the people above weren't even facing her when she dropped them.



Well then there goes the advantage that Mai is supposed to have over Asami.  But past that, I'm not really sure what your point is here?  Ty Lee was not "so much faster" than Katara in "The Chase".  Katara avoided her hits and managed to get off a couple water discs attacks on Ty Lee, which constitutes "fighting back".  It was Mai who actually pinned down Katara while Katara was focused on trying to do a larger waterbending move.



> We see new and improved Suki at 2:00. This is the person that Ty Lee kept up with.



If by "new and improved" you mean "did some nice acrobatics and fought past a bunch of featless fodder", then sure.



> And blindsiding doesn't matter. Azula raises her arm to lightning bend(and yes, that stance is lightningbending), and Ty Lee crosses several feets worth of distance and disables her before her arm is fully raised. For people, it takes longer to raise their arm then it does to move several feet, so that makes her reactions greater than Azula's.



I'm pretty sure that's not lightning.  There's no telltale sparks, and it would have been stupid for Azula to take the time to lightning bend when Mai could quickly nail her with a shuriken.  Blindsiding does matter because it means Azula did not know to react even if she had time. And Ty Lee was standing practically right next to Azula.





> Anyways, relevant videos for Asami, since you haven't posted any



I _did_ post a video for Asami, included in a post that was partly a reply to you.  I didn't repost it because I figured you'd already seen it, but I guess not. Pay attention.





> It's an actual fight this time. It's not unimpressive, but she took 2 by surprise. All of them managed to react to her, and one of them even managed to arm lock her before she disabled him. Their... uh...fighting experience amounts to punches and kicks, so about the basic level of any avatar thug. It's not really a stretch to say Sokka is better at fighting than they are; if you're saying they're better than Suki, or that taking them out equates to her being better than or equal to her, you're just being ridiculous. You could take the hype of them supposedly being chi blockers(all evidence to the contrary), but then you'd have to take the hype of the earth agents too.



You say "fight" mockingly, presumably because of how short it was, when that's part of my point.  The Lieutenant is a decent combatant, shown by his fights with Mako and Bolin in "The Revelation" and with Korra in "And The Winner Is..." -- and Asami walked all over him.  If simply being brief is enough to dismiss it, then Ty Lee "blitzing" Katara is also unimpressive.

Chi blockers were a threat to Korra and Mako in "The Revelation"; that established them as better than your run of the mill "Avatar thug".  I'm not sure what you mean by "supposedly being chi blockers", as we see them actually using chi blocking on Korra and Mako.  It's more noteworthy than anything the Boiling Rock guards Mai took down or the earthbenders Ty Lee took down ever did.  Sokka with his sword might be better with them, but I don't see how Sokka could beat them as he was when Ty Lee took him down in "The Chase".


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 10, 2014)

Volt manta speaks the truth, Ty Lee absolutely stomps Asami, it's not even a debate. Just watched that tribute and fucking hell, didn't remember Ty Lee being that acrobatic, she jumps so damn high and blitzes opponents. Asami has 0 chance. I mean at first I thought it would be a close battle but still gave the edge to Ty Lee who is just a better CQC fighter than Asami but she has the glove, but looking at the vid now she stomps Asami.


----------



## Volt manta (Oct 10, 2014)

Wan said:


> If by "new and improved" you mean "did some nice acrobatics and fought past a bunch of featless fodder", then sure.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that's not lightning.



I will apologize for the mocking, but my points still stand.

Those nice acrobatics involved her jumping on and over people's heads and scaling sheer metal walls, while disabling the Warden's personal guards. Asami has done nothing like this. Simply saying "chi blockers" doesn't work in this case because they obviously aren't as skilled as the ones in season 1, episode 3. Just comparing them should tell you that; the guys at 9:50 are skilled martial artists who read every inch of Korra and Mako's movements and still managed to move as a unit:


The guys at 36:30 are basic thugs who use predictable over the shoulder punches and over the head kicks.

There was no skill, no style, not even an attempt to chi block. Those two are completely different characters.

Lightning bending has a distinct style, by the way; you use two fingers to channel the lightning, which is what Azula does in that video at :39. In any case, Ty Lee still made full movements and disabled Azula with precise pressure points before she could complete a single arm movement. To do that, she would need to be faster.


----------



## Wan (Oct 10, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> I will apologize for the mocking, but my points still stand.



Thanks.



> Those nice acrobatics involved her jumping on and over people's heads and scaling sheer metal walls, while disabling the Warden's personal guards. Asami has done nothing like this. Simply saying "chi blockers" doesn't work in this case because they obviously aren't as skilled as the ones in season 1, episode 3. Just comparing them should tell you that; the guys at 9:50 are skilled martial artists who read every inch of Korra and Mako's movements and still managed to move as a unit:
> 
> 
> The guys at 36:30 are basic thugs who use predictable over the shoulder punches and over the head kicks.
> ...



Why aren't they as skilled?  They're all faceless Equalist chi blockers, with access to the same training resources.  "The Revelation" establishes the baseline of skill for Equalist chi blockers.  Yes, Asami makes them look like amateurs, but that's the _point_, that Asami is good enough that they can't gain any ground on her like they could with Korra and Mako.



> Lightning bending has a distinct style, by the way; you use two fingers to channel the lightning, which is what Azula does in that video at :39.



Azula used two fingers for a regular firebending move here:





> In any case, Ty Lee still made full movements and disabled Azula with precise pressure points before she could complete a single arm movement. To do that, she would need to be faster.



Faster than Azula's own movement she was doing, yes.  Faster than Azula can react, no.


----------



## Volt manta (Oct 10, 2014)

Wan said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's obvious they don't have the same training; they have completely different attacking and moving styles. The first team was made to be relevant threats, while the second team was just made to be fodder. Save name, there's no indication the former is anywhere near as good as the latter.

This was a serious Azula, and Ty Lee physically moved her entire body and hit her twice before she could complete an arm movement. I fail to see where you're coming from there.

I will concede on the lightning bending, though


----------



## Amae (Oct 10, 2014)

> Why aren't they as skilled?


You think the average equalist can make Mako and Korra (albeit she was unaware of chi-blocking) look like chumps? You can't really equalize ability like that. The Lieutenant is definitely better than them, though.


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## Wan (Oct 10, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> It's obvious they don't have the same training; they have completely different attacking and moving styles. The first team was made to be relevant threats, while the second team was just made to be fodder. Save name, there's no indication the former is anywhere near as good as the latter.



I disagree that what we see from the Equalists fighting Asami is a significantly different style than what we saw from the ones that fought Mako and Korra.  I'd say the Equalist chi blockers in general were made to be relevant threats, and that's what makes Asami's quick takedown of them impressive in the first place.



> This was a serious Azula, and Ty Lee physically moved her entire body and hit her twice before she could complete an arm movement. I fail to see where you're coming from there.



The first hit was what prevented Azula from completing the arm movement, the second was to ensure that Azula was more completely disabled.



Amae said:


> You think the average equalist can make Mako and Korra (albeit she was unaware of chi-blocking) look like chumps? You can't really equalize ability like that. The Lieutenant is definitely better than them, though.



With an element of surprise on their side, yes.  We see it happen.  There's nothing that says those were particularly better chi blockers than the rest of the equalists.


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## Volt manta (Oct 10, 2014)

Wan said:


> I disagree that what we see from the Equalists fighting Asami is a significantly different style than what we saw from the ones that fought Mako and Korra.  I'd say the Equalist chi blockers in general were made to be relevant threats, and that's what makes Asami's quick takedown of them impressive in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They showed none of the ability or agility of the previous chi blockers, so you can't use the latter to scale Asami to the former.

You're dodging, by the way; Ty Lee's can move her body faster than Azula can move her hand, which means Ty Lee is faster than Azula.


----------



## Wan (Oct 10, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> They showed none of the ability or agility of the previous chi blockers, so you can't use the latter to scale Asami to the former.



That they _didn't_ show it doesn't mean they _can't_ have it.  They don't seem as agile because Asami is more agile than they are.



> You're dodging, by the way; Ty Lee's can move her body faster than Azula can move her hand, which means Ty Lee is faster than Azula.



That depends.  If we assume Ty Lee started moving as Azula started moving, that would include how Azula pulled her hands back, which Ty Lee didn't have to do.  So she could be as fast and still succeed at hitting Azula.


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## Volt manta (Oct 10, 2014)

Wan said:


> That they _didn't_ show it doesn't mean they _can't_ have it.  They don't seem as agile because Asami is more agile than they are.
> 
> 
> 
> That depends.  If we assume Ty Lee started moving as Azula started moving, that would include how Azula pulled her hands back, which Ty Lee didn't have to do.  So she could be as fast and still succeed at hitting Azula.



Aside from comparing them to characters who are similar to them only in name, you have no way to prove that.

And the only way Ty Lee could chi block is by hitting specific points on the body. Given that, she had to have compensated for Azula extending her arm, which makes her faster because she still managed to hit the appropriate spots. If she wasn't faster, she would have completely missed the pressure points she would have been aiming for (which would've been at Azula's back, not facing her), and Mai would've been a smoking crater.


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## Reznor (Oct 11, 2014)

My gut reaction before reading any posts is that it's hard to properly rate Mako, Bolin and Asami. Bolin's development is the most observable of the 3 (lavabending). Mako goes from getting stomped by chiblockers and the LT, to beating a red lotus member without much visible change. Asami's CQC is pretty impressive from the get go. All we can see developmentally is that she can hang with the kind of people that Mako/Bolin and even Korra fight.



> Round 1:  No comet power, Korra is restricted from using the Avatar State


 Plently of earthbending on hand makes it hard for Mai, Airbending is good at delaying Ti Lee.and redirect lightning stops Azula's trump card.

Slight advantage to team Korra. 


> Round 2:  Comet power is enabled for Azula only, Korra can use the Avatar State
> Round 3:  Comet power is enabled for all firebenders.  Korra can use the Avatar State.


Korra's AS makes all the difference. She might solo.

No question if she and Mako get the boost too.

Battle takes place on Laghima's Peak.  All combatants are at their peak  physical and mental conditions (meaning neither Azula nor Korra are  mental wrecks).  Which side wins?


----------



## Rivers (Oct 21, 2014)

Looking back at some combo fights with Mako and Bolin, together showing decent offensive power and solid defence against projectiles respectively, I'm giving all rounds to Team Korra.


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## Darth (Oct 21, 2014)

It honestly feels to me like Team Azula takes Scenarios 1-2. Team Korra probably takes Scenario 3.

Azula and Mai were trained as warriors. Mako and Bolin fight like street thugs and pro-benders. Their combat experience is high but their fighting styles probably won't fare well against Azula and co. 

Korra is very strong in her own right, but even Aang never managed to get a definitive edge against Azula in combat.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 21, 2014)

Darth said:


> It honestly feels to me like Team Azula takes Scenarios 1-2. Team Korra probably takes Scenario 3.
> 
> Azula and Mai were trained as warriors. Mako and Bolin fight like street thugs and pro-benders. Their combat experience is high but their fighting styles probably won't fare well against Azula and co.
> 
> Korra is very strong in her own right, but even Aang never managed to get a definitive edge against Azula in combat.


I would agree with you about Mako and Bolin, but they had some intangible improvement from Book 1 to 3. Book 3 Mako+Bolin can 1v1 Red Lotus members, that were a serious threat top tiers.


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## Velocity (Oct 21, 2014)

I'm not actually sure about Mako and Bolin. They were getting their butts handed to them by Unalaq in Book 2 and Mako only beat Ming-Hua because of surprise Lightningbending. Bolin couldn't take Ghazan in their fight, either, until Mako showed up to help.

I am, however, very confident that Asami, Mako and Bolin together can handle Ty Lee and Mai. Asami should be more than a match for Mai and if she still has that glove, she could take Ty Lee by herself too. Don't forget that those three have experience fighting Chi Blockers, which none of Ty Lee's opponents ever did until Suki fought her a second time and held her own wonderfully.

So I'm pretty sure that those three can handle Azula's team mates, leaving Azula herself to Korra. Which is where things get interesting. Can Azula beat Korra in a straight fight? I'm really not sure. Korra is much more aggressive than Aang and she's more inclined to combo elements. That kind of overpowering offensive could be more than enough to at the very least hold Azula off and it's proven effective against a lot of different master benders. Can Azula beat Korra before Asami, Mako and Bolin defeat Ty Lee and Mai and join Korra to gang up on Azula? I don't think so.

Of course, even Sozin's Comet can't compare to the Avatar State so Team Azula lose both the second and third scenarios almost automatically. Korra was stomping all three of the Red Lotus members very easily in the Avatar State and that's even with the poison screwing her up. Azula doesn't stand a chance against someone that strong, even with Sozin's Comet.

So I'm going to say Team Korra wins all three scenarios. First scenario would be hard, the rest easy.


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## Volt manta (Oct 21, 2014)

Velocity said:


> I'm not actually sure about Mako and Bolin. They were getting their butts handed to them by Unalaq in Book 2 and Mako only beat Ming-Hua because of surprise Lightningbending. Bolin couldn't take Ghazan in their fight, either, until Mako showed up to help.
> 
> I am, however, very confident that Asami, Mako and Bolin together can handle Ty Lee and Mai. Asami should be more than a match for Mai and if she still has that glove, she could take Ty Lee by herself too. Don't forget that those three have experience fighting Chi Blockers, which none of Ty Lee's opponents ever did until Suki fought her a second time and held her own wonderfully.
> 
> ...



Asami has neither the speed nor the agility to deal with Ty Lee, who blitzed Azula. She was also able to react to a surprise attack from Toph under her feet. That means unless she happens to land in a lava pool by circumstance, neither Bolin or Asami are touching her (Assuming Mako is fighting Azula; if not, it's going to be a very short battle).

I'm not even too sure on Asami taking Mai. She has to get in close range to put somebody out, and the closer she is, the more likely she gets nailed with a kunai. Mai's neither far enough outside her reactions or a poor enough shot that she shouldn't be able to hit her at less than three meters with six kunai.


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## Wan (Oct 21, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Asami has neither the speed nor the agility to deal with Ty Lee, who blitzed Azula. She was also able to react to a surprise attack from Toph under her feet. That means unless she happens to land in a lava pool by circumstance, neither Bolin or Asami are touching her (Assuming Mako is fighting Azula; if not, it's going to be a very short battle).
> 
> I'm not even too sure on Asami taking Mai. She has to get in close range to put somebody out, and the closer she is, the more likely she gets nailed with a kunai. Mai's neither far enough outside her reactions or a poor enough shot that she shouldn't be able to hit her at less than three meters with six kunai.



Blindsiding someone is not blitzing.  Stop pretending it is.


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## Reznor (Oct 21, 2014)

The attack from Toph was in no way a surprise attack, and the attack by Ty Lee was the very definition of one.


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## Volt manta (Oct 21, 2014)

Wan said:


> Blindsiding someone is not blitzing.  Stop pretending it is.


Ty Lee hit specific pressure points on Azula's body while she was moving, which require she know her position at the current point in time. Tell me how she could have accurately hit those pressure points if she wasn't moving faster.


Reznor said:


> The attack from Toph was in no way a surprise attack, and the attack by Ty Lee was the very definition of one.



I don't see how it wasn't; it happened right under her feet. That's not really easy to predict.


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## Fujita (Oct 21, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> Ty Lee hit specific pressure points on Azula's body while she was moving, which require she know her position at the current point in time. Tell me how she could have accurately hit those pressure points if she wasn't moving faster.



...the same way anybody hits anybody in a fight? 

Azula's lightning windup is telegraphed as fuck, and Ty Lee hit her while she was focused on Mai 

so this



> Asami has neither the speed nor the agility to deal with Ty Lee, who blitzed Azula.



never happened


----------



## Rivers (Oct 21, 2014)

Darth said:


> Azula and Mai were trained as warriors. Mako and Bolin fight like street thugs and pro-benders. Their combat experience is high but their fighting styles probably won't fare well against Azula and co.



If Mako and Bolin dont get separated, they can last quite a while.



Together they can even outmaneuver the likes of Gahzan (top-tier).





> Korra is very strong in her own right, but even Aang never managed to get a definitive edge against Azula in combat.



That's more to do with his Air Nation nature / philosophy. He's more likely to defend and evade, rather than assault and press the attack.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 22, 2014)

> I don't see how it wasn't; it happened right under her feet. That's not really easy to predict


 that doesn't seem unexpected with earthbending...


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## Volt manta (Oct 22, 2014)

Fujita said:


> ...the same way anybody hits anybody in a fight?
> 
> Azula's lightning windup is telegraphed as fuck, and Ty Lee hit her while she was focused on Mai
> 
> ...



I think you mean intercepted her. And it would be a different issue is she simply tossed herself at Azula, but she didn't. Pressure points are not huge target bullseyes on the human body, they're precise spots you need to hit consistently. Unless you have pre-cog, that requires you to be faster than the person you're fighting, otherwise you would logically fail to hit the exact spot.
In this scenario, by the way, it doesn't matter that she was focused on Mai, just that she was serious in killing her and using her full ability to try to do so. Somewhere between the hand leaving the body and fully extending, Ty Lee managed to run some distance and drop her.


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## Wan (Oct 22, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> I think you mean intercepted her. And it would be a different issue is she simply tossed herself at Azula, but she didn't. Pressure points are not huge target bullseyes on the human body, they're precise spots you need to hit consistently. Unless you have pre-cog, that requires you to be faster than the person you're fighting, otherwise you would logically fail to hit the exact spot.
> In this scenario, by the way, it doesn't matter that she was focused on Mai, just that she was serious in killing her and using her full ability to try to do so. Somewhere between the hand leaving the body and fully extending, Ty Lee managed to run some distance and drop her.



Ty Lee hit Azula twice.  There's nothing necessitating that her first hit tagged a vital pressure point, it just stopped Azula from shooting at Mai.  The second hit, with Azula already thrown off balance, was the one that hit a pressure point that crippled Azula.

And whether or not Ty Lee precisely hit a pressure point, whether or not her arm moved faster than Azula's, that's still not the same as _blitzing_ Azula, because it was a blindside attack and Azula's attention was not on Ty Lee.  Azula never had a chance to see it coming.

And no, Ty Lee didn't run.  I've already posted the screenshots showing Ty Lee was standing right next to Azula; need I post them again?


----------



## Volt manta (Oct 22, 2014)

Wan said:


> Ty Lee hit Azula twice.  There's nothing necessitating that her first hit tagged a vital pressure point, it just stopped Azula from shooting at Mai.  The second hit, with Azula already thrown off balance, was the one that hit a pressure point that crippled Azula.
> 
> And whether or not Ty Lee precisely hit a pressure point, whether or not her arm moved faster than Azula's, that's still not the same as _blitzing_ Azula, because it was a blindside attack and Azula's attention was not on Ty Lee.  Azula never had a chance to see it coming.
> 
> And no, Ty Lee didn't run.  I've already posted the screenshots showing Ty Lee was standing right next to Azula; need I post them again?



There's nothing necessitating that her second hit hit a pressure point, either. Either way, it's stretching things.

You're focused too much on the word blitzing, so just drop it, since the main point is Ty Lee's reactions are better than Azula's, whether there was a "blitz" or not. And seeing it coming doesn't necessarily matter here. If I outrun the flash while he's running at max speed to get to a donut store, it makes me faster; circumstance is irrelevant here.

And we can even throw out running here, and it still doesn't change things. Even at two-three feets distance, she would've undershot hitting Azula if they had the same reaction speed. She still has to be faster in order to close the gap.


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## Wan (Oct 22, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> There's nothing necessitating that her second hit hit a pressure point, either. Either way, it's stretching things.
> 
> You're focused too much on the word blitzing, so just drop it, since the main point is Ty Lee's reactions are better than Azula's, whether there was a "blitz" or not. And seeing it coming doesn't necessarily matter here. If I outrun the flash while he's running at max speed to get to a donut store, it makes me faster; circumstance is irrelevant here.
> 
> And we can even throw out running here, and it still doesn't change things. Even at two-three feets distance, she would've undershot hitting Azula if they had the same reaction speed. She still has to be faster in order to close the gap.



There's a pretty big difference between simply being _faster_ than someone (and Ty Lee's strike _was_ faster than that firebending move Azula was about to use) and _blitzing_ someone.  Being physically faster than one attack from Azula is also not the same as being faster than Azula can react in general, either.


----------



## Darth (Oct 22, 2014)

Amae said:


> You think the average equalist can make Mako and Korra (albeit she was unaware of chi-blocking) look like chumps? You can't really *equalize* ability like that. The Lieutenant is definitely better than them, though.



I see what you did there.


----------



## Volt manta (Oct 22, 2014)

Wan said:


> There's a pretty big difference between simply being _faster_ than someone (and Ty Lee's strike _was_ faster than that firebending move Azula was about to use) and _blitzing_ someone.  Being physically faster than one attack from Azula is also not the same as being faster than Azula can react in general, either.



It is when the movements are more complicated, i.e full repositioning of the body vs the extension of an arm. It means you can execute an equal amount of movement in less time.


----------



## Wan (Oct 22, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> It is when the movements are more complicated, i.e full repositioning of the body vs the extension of an arm. It means you can execute an equal amount of movement in less time.



Azula wasn't just extending her arm, she was pulling back and performing the movements necessary for a fireblast.  Ty Lee is faster than that _one attack_ -- but Azula didn't have the _chance_ to react to Ty Lee, so there's no basis for saying that Ty Lee can attack faster than Azula can react.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 22, 2014)

Azula wouldn't let Ty Lee get that close if they were fighting.


----------



## GearsUp (Oct 22, 2014)

S1: ty lee disables everyone in a few seconds
S2: ty lee and mai disable everyone but korra in a few seconds
S3: mai is a nonfactor, ty lee > asami, korra, mako/bolin beat everyone in the end

TA: 2
TK: 1


----------



## Volt manta (Oct 22, 2014)

Reznor said:


> Azula wouldn't let Ty Lee get that close if they were fighting.



Azula has the benefit of range to give her an advantage, Asami doesn't.


----------



## GearsUp (Oct 22, 2014)

ty lee is faster and more agile than azula

that much should be clear. and azula has no way of tagging her i can think of unless she (ty lee) closes in. that's pretty much a stalemate fight


----------



## Kurou (Oct 22, 2014)

lava bending



gg


----------



## Kurou (Oct 22, 2014)

Oh yeah I posted that before



ty lee gets in close and succumbs to Bolin's charms. While she's dazed




lava bending



gg


----------



## GearsUp (Oct 22, 2014)

ty lee would hit bolin about 16 times before he realizes he's in a fight


----------



## Rivers (Oct 22, 2014)

GearsUp said:


> S1: ty lee disables everyone in a few seconds
> S2: ty lee and mai disable everyone but korra in a few seconds
> S3: mai is a nonfactor, ty lee > asami, korra, mako/bolin beat everyone in the end
> 
> ...



How does Team Azula take down Avatar State Korra in S2?


----------



## Reznor (Oct 22, 2014)

> Azula has the benefit of range to give her an advantage, Asami doesn't.


 So? Azula needs range to fight Ty Lee. 

Asami might not. Haven't decided who's better yet, but Asami could hang in CQC longer than Azula could.


----------



## Volt manta (Oct 22, 2014)

Reznor said:


> So? Azula needs range to fight Ty Lee.
> 
> Asami might not. Haven't decided who's better yet, but Asami could hang in CQC longer than Azula could.



There's not really any hanging, one or two shots from Ty Lee ends this. Asami can put her down, but she's going to be too busy trying to figure out where the hell she just went. Essentially, it's Mike Tyson vs Bruce Lee, only Bruce is capable of disabling him with a touch.


----------



## Wan (Oct 23, 2014)

Volt manta said:


> There's not really any hanging, one or two shots from Ty Lee ends this. Asami can put her down, but she's going to be too busy trying to figure out where the hell she just went. Essentially, it's Mike Tyson vs Bruce Lee, only Bruce is capable of disabling him with a touch.



What, are you expecting Asami to suddenly go blind?  There's nowhere to go, Ty Lee needs to stay close to Asami and she's not too fast for a proficient fighter like Asami to outright lose track of.


----------



## Volt manta (Oct 23, 2014)

Wan said:


> What, are you expecting Asami to suddenly go blind?  There's nowhere to go, Ty Lee needs to stay close to Asami and she's not too fast for a proficient fighter like Asami to outright lose track of.



Of course not, but she'll he'll be hell pressed to hit her. I'm not saying this fight's impossible for her to win, just unlikely.


----------



## GearsUp (Oct 24, 2014)

Rivers said:


> How does Team Azula take down Avatar State Korra in S2?



i just haven't seen feats impressive enough from her compared to eos azula. and with azula in the right som, I don't see korra having a chance 1 on 1


----------



## Rivers (Oct 24, 2014)

GearsUp said:


> i just haven't seen feats impressive enough from her compared to eos azula. and with azula in the right som, I don't see korra having a chance 1 on 1







That's not doing it for you?


----------



## GearsUp (Oct 24, 2014)

it really isn't, man.

that's actually kind of comical.


----------



## Fujita (Oct 24, 2014)

...in the Avatarverse, chucking rocks that size has never exactly been what you'd call "comical" 

More like the kind of thing Aang was pulling off against Ozai. Albeit with worse timing (and slightly smaller rocks? idk, these are still massive compared to the norm), but then Korra's also suffering from fucking mercury poisoning here. She couldn't lay a finger on Zaheer, but I... really doubt that Azula is as mobile as he is in the air, even with comet propulsion.


----------



## Wan (Oct 24, 2014)

GearsUp said:


> it really isn't, man.
> 
> that's actually kind of comical.



Then why don't you show something from EOS Azula to match it?

While we're on the subject of Korra's feats...

[youtube]onea9tgJGz4[/youtube]


----------



## AgentAAA (Oct 24, 2014)

Fujita said:


> ...in the Avatarverse, chucking rocks that size has never exactly been what you'd call "comical"
> 
> More like the kind of thing Aang was pulling off against Ozai. Albeit with worse timing (and slightly smaller rocks? idk, these are still massive compared to the norm), but then Korra's also suffering from fucking mercury poisoning here. She couldn't lay a finger on Zaheer, but I... really doubt that Azula is as mobile as he is in the air, even with comet propulsion.



Toph has shat on that feat several times, especially comic Toph vs. Bumi.


----------



## Wan (Oct 24, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Toph has shat on that feat several times, especially comic Toph vs. Bumi.



Toph hasn't, not in terms of throwing large rocks.  Bumi is closer, but then we're talking the absolute top-tier earthbender who would quite arguably trash Azula himself.  He moved a large rock, but it was smaller, and took more effort than Korra showed.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 24, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Toph has shat on that feat several times, especially comic Toph vs. Bumi.



Meanwhile Bumi taking back Omashu shits on everything (except the island splitting by Kiyoshi) and he does so without even making direct contact with said rocks

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iREL5UYByd0[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Wan (Oct 24, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Bumi taking back Omashu shits on everything (except the island splitting by Kiyoshi) and he does so without even making direct contact with said rocks
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iREL5UYByd0[/YOUTUBE]



It doesn't.  Bumi doesn't acutally lift anything, there.  He topples over a statue from underneath.  The buildings he sends flying are, first of all, buildings, so they're not going to be as dense as a solid boulder.  Secondly, he sends them moving _sideways_, not directly up in opposition of gravity.  The strain with which he lifted the boulder in "King of Omashu" is a more direct comparison with Korra's boulder-tossing feats.


----------



## Volt manta (Oct 24, 2014)

Fujita said:


> ...in the Avatarverse, chucking rocks that size has never exactly been what you'd call "comical"
> 
> More like the kind of thing Aang was pulling off against Ozai. Albeit with worse timing (and slightly smaller rocks? idk, these are still massive compared to the norm), but then Korra's also suffering from fucking mercury poisoning here. She couldn't lay a finger on Zaheer, but I... really doubt that Azula is as mobile as he is in the air, even with comet propulsion.



Honestly, with earth bending that powerful, I don't really see scenario's 2 and 3 having a happy, non squish ending for team Azula. Assuming she can manipulate the same volume of earth, what's stopping Korra from just drawing up an earth walls around team Azula and crushing them at the start of the match?


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 24, 2014)

Wan said:


> Toph hasn't, not in terms of throwing large rocks.  Bumi is closer, but then we're talking the absolute *top-tier earthbender who would quite arguably trash Azula himself*.  He moved a large rock, but it was smaller, and took more effort than Korra showed.



Arguably ? Azula pales in comparison of what the king of Oma Shu can do, no competition .

Stop at 0:56 . He moves 3 houses(Or buildings, I don't know) and you can CLEARLY see that they are floating in the air, not " sideways and along with gravity " .

Three fucking houses . As if it wasn't already so fucking cool to lift a house, he lifts three at the same time, and that was clearly casual . Also, he has to lift for a little amount of time Ozai's statue, but yeah, he doesn't actually lift it in the air .

Edit: And why are people putting Azula with fire propulsion ? Did she do it ? I don't remember she doing it, and I recently re-watched all Avatar the Last Airbender . If she did it, must be in comics(The only comic I read was the Toph vs Bumi) . But if she didn't demonstrate that ability, we shouldn't instantly apply to her, just because weaker people did it, cause by this logic we can start making Aang do that Zaheer thingy with air that is really cool(The one that he takes the air out of the person's lungs)  .

Edit?: Found what you must be saying:



Still not the same thing as propulsion in mid air . In mid air is much more complicated, it's like riding a water jet pack and using that new technology that is similar to propulsion but with air: the jet pack is much, much harder to dominate because you aren't used to it, not only the commands, but the being floating thing, while giving you an edge on running is just your normal running but with an edge . Azula can't be scaled to fire propulsion in air . At best she's getting way faster and way tough to hit on ground, which is already a lot, but she isn't flying .

Edit?: I found her riding at air . Nevermind . But does someone have the video ? I mean, I literally just watched everything from scratch and can't remember it .


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 24, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Edit: And why are people putting Azula with fire propulsion ? Did she do it ? I don't remember she doing it, and I recently re-watched all Avatar the Last Airbender . If she did it, must be in comics(The only comic I read was the Toph vs Bumi) . But if she didn't demonstrate that ability, we shouldn't instantly apply to her, just because weaker people did it, cause by this logic we can start making Aang do that Zaheer thingy with air that is really cool(The one that he takes the air out of the person's lungs)  .



She did do it several times actually. The time that comes to mind most clearly is at the Boiling Rock where she does propel herself into the air for a decent distance.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqLW7D2P1HE[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 24, 2014)

So I got ninja'd and didn't even see it .

I remember that thing just being horizontal . But well, poor memory at it's best .


----------



## Fujita (Oct 24, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Toph has shat on that feat several times, especially comic Toph vs. Bumi.



I don't remember anything of that caliber from Toph, though I haven't read that comic. Bumi approaches/exceeds it, yeah (closest would probably be tipping over the massive iron statue), but I wouldn't call him or Toph "comical" compared to Azula.   



MusubiKazesaru said:


> She did do it several times actually. The time that comes to mind most clearly is at the Boiling Rock where she does propel herself into the air for a decent distance.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqLW7D2P1HE[/YOUTUBE]



And she's a bit more maneuverable with it during her fight with Zuko, as I recall (though they don't really cover large distances).


----------



## Wan (Oct 24, 2014)

Azula can do jet propulsion into the air, but she can't really sustain herself in the air indefinitely and fly with it like Avatar State Korra or comet-powered Ozai can.  She seems to use it primarily for short boosts.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 24, 2014)

I'm confused what we are arguing now. This is just turning into general TLA v LOK now.


----------



## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

Here's some more feats for Korra from the recent game:

[YOUTUBE]_4SaqBxmcjk[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## AgentAAA (Oct 25, 2014)

pretty sure games aint canon for avatar. never seen that game before though, so if it's stated as canon that's fine.


----------



## Tacocat (Oct 25, 2014)

It's intended to bridge seasons 2 and 3. I think it is supposed to be canon. Wan can go fetch any official statements that might exist, though.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 25, 2014)

The overarching aspects of the game probably are just as the Avatar creators directors, but particulars probably aren't.


----------



## TheGloryXros (Oct 25, 2014)

The writers never stated it to be canon...Besides, this is a frickin GAME, that's a change in media that is really hard to integrate to its original media source of TV...


----------



## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

The creators stated that they figured out how it would fit in to the timeline of the show.  Plus it was written by them to begin with.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> The creators stated that they figured out how it would fit in to the timeline of the show.  Plus it was written by them to begin with.



So what ? Anime people and Oda made a way that Z's ambition arc fit the canon and Oda himself developed the story of the arc and the movie, doesn't mean it's canon .

Stop it, Wan, you are just trying to get the most high ends for LoK, trying to even distorce the show that you like for the possibility of Team Korra beating Azula with more sure .

If you want these feats to be used, do a composite version of LoK, don't try to argue it's canon .


----------



## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> So what ? Anime people and Oda made a way that Z's ambition arc fit the canon and Oda himself developed the story of the arc and the movie, doesn't mean it's canon .
> 
> Stop it, Wan, you are just trying to get the most high ends for LoK, trying to even distorce the show that you like for the possibility of Team Korra beating Azula with more sure .
> 
> If you want these feats to be used, do a composite version of LoK, don't try to argue it's canon .



What does the One Piece example have to do with Legend of Korra?  The creators developed the story and villain and say this is the most involved they've ever been with a game, a writer from the show (Tim Hedrick) directly wrote the script for the game, and the creators have been pretty visible in promoting the game.  If it's conceived of by the creators and written by a writer from the show, what's there to make it _not_ canon?  

I mean, the waterbending part of that video is the _same_ as her takedown of a mecha tank in the episode "Turning the Tides".  Tenzin pulled an airbending move which tossed a mecha-tank in the air, even more easily than Korra does in the video because he didn't need a whole tornado.  It's relatively consistent with the general scale of feats from master level benders in Legend of Korra.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> What does the One Piece example have to do with Legend of Korra?  The creators developed the story and villain and say this is the most involved they've ever been with a game, a writer from the show (Tim Hedrick) directly wrote the script for the game, and the creators have been pretty visible in promoting the game.  If it's conceived of by the creators and written by a writer from the show, what's there to make it _not_ canon?
> 
> I mean, the waterbending part of that video is the _same_ as her takedown of a mecha tank in the episode "Turning the Tides".  Tenzin pulled an airbending move which tossed a mecha-tank in the air, even more easily than Korra does in the video because he didn't need a whole tornado.  It's relatively consistent with the general scale of feats from master level benders in Legend of Korra.



It has ... Lots to do with it . More importantly showing that only because it fits with the plot and was written by the author itself, DOES NOT MAKE IT CANON . 

And OF COURSE they'd be all over trying to promote the game, these guys appear all the time on TV talking about the show, the fans actually have a closer contact with them than it's normal, and the fans actually trust them, of course they are trying to promote the game, they think the plot was done in a cool way and they are getting at the very least more respect if it reaches more than ever before, and probably more money. 

Oda also said to watch at least the last movie, because he was highly involved with it and he actually liked the results .

And of course video game moves are going to look like what they do in the show, or in a Naruto video game Naruto didn't have a rasengan ? This is just plain obvious . What it does not make canon ... Let's see ... How about not being in the original series, nor the series having a clear sign that it happened nor anything like that, much less the writers saying " Hey guys this is canon and we will treat like it " . Also, that would be a douche bag move, since lots of fans aren't going to play, nor do they want to play .

Edit: Holy fuck, it hit me now, I didn't watch last episode, I'm going to watch it, so I might take some time to answer your next post .


----------



## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> It has ... Lots to do with it . More importantly showing that only because it fits with the plot and was written by the author itself, DOES NOT MAKE IT CANON .



Then what makes the show itself canon? 



> And of course video game moves are going to look like what they do in the show, or in a Naruto video game Naruto didn't have a rasengan ? This is just plain obvious . What it does not make canon ... Let's see ... How about not being in the original series, nor the series having a clear sign that it happened nor anything like that, much less the writers saying " Hey guys this is canon and we will treat like it " . Also, that would be a douche bag move, since lots of fans aren't going to play, nor do they want to play .
> 
> Edit: Holy fuck, it hit me now, I didn't watch last episode, I'm going to watch it, so I might take some time to answer your next post .



By that reasoning, the Star Wars Extended Universe was never canon, even before the Legends decanonization, because they were not in the original movie series.  The Avatar The Last Airbender comics aren't canon by that reasoning, either.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> Then what makes the show itself canon?



It's the original series, and the authors made to be a continuity of Last Airbender explicitly, basically .





> By that reasoning, the Star Wars Extended Universe was never canon, even before the Legends decanonization, because they were not in the original movie series.  The Avatar The Last Airbender comics aren't canon by that reasoning, either.



There are a bunch of Star Wars canons, to my knowledge, I'm pretty sure that some were made to be a continuity and others basically a whole new start . But please don't bring Star Wars up as an example, I have friends that are hardcore Star War fanboys and not even them can reach a consensus, it seems messed up . It seems to me that Star Wars is somewhat like Hellsing, the manga and the animes and OVA's are canon to themselves, but Hellsing isn't so much of a mess, where people argue what is canon to what .

I'll give you another example, this one you know well: the Avatar comics, it was continuity, it didn't contradict the original series, and the writers said they were canon, and to top it I think that there are some references to the comics in LoK that is also a canon continuity with Last Airbender .


----------



## AgentAAA (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> Then what makes the show itself canon?[/quot]
> because it's the primary medium and the source material. same reason, to quote you later, the star wars movies are canon to themselves.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> It's the original series, and the authors made to be a continuity of Last Airbender explicitly, basically .



Oh, so the creators making it to be in continuity makes it canon?  They did that with the Legend of Korra video game.  So by that reasoning, the video game is canon.



> There are a bunch of Star Wars canons, to my knowledge, I'm pretty sure that some were made to be a continuity and others basically a whole new start . But please don't bring Star Wars up as an example, I have friends that are hardcore Star War fanboys and not even them can reach a consensus, it seems messed up . It seems to me that Star Wars is somewhat like Hellsing, the manga and the animes and OVA's are canon to themselves, but Hellsing isn't so much of a mess, where people argue what is canon to what .



There was a fairly convoluted canon system prior to the new movie announcement.  Either way, my point is what you said makes something non-canon never applied to Star Wars.  If you don't want me bringing up Star Wars, don't bring up One Piece as if it's any more relevant.



> I'll give you another example, this one you know well: the Avatar comics, it was continuity, it didn't contradict the original series, and the writers said they were canon, and to top it I think that there are some references to the comics in LoK that is also a canon continuity with Last Airbender .



Except you said:



Mr. Black Leg said:


> What it does not make canon ... Let's see ... How about not being in the original series, nor the series having a clear sign that it happened nor anything like that, much less the writers saying " Hey guys this is canon and we will treat like it " .



All of that applies to the Avatar comics.  They weren't in the original series, there is no clear sign that it happened in either series (there is no reference to the events from the comics in Legend of Korra), and while the creators have been very visible in their involvement with the comics, just like with the game, they have never explicitly said something to the effect that the comics are canon.  The game was at least written by a writer from the show (Tim Hedrick), whereas the comics are written by a guy who never wrote for the show (Gene Yang).


----------



## Reznor (Oct 25, 2014)

Game mechanics aren't even considered legitimate  for video game only characters in most fictional character battles.

Even if the plot were canon, that doesn't admit most in-game feats.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 25, 2014)

Also, video games are a product of sale and merchandising . The comics were made to conclude the series, still not canon if the authors didn't say it but, for a game to be considered canon, boy oh boy you would have to have a large definition of canon so big that you would have to consider toys from avatar canon too .


----------



## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Also, video games are a product of sale and merchandising . The comics were made to conclude the series, still not canon if the authors didn't say it but, for a game to be considered canon, boy oh boy you would have to have a large definition of canon so big that you would have to consider toys from avatar canon too .



You really seem to have no concept of an extended universe.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 25, 2014)

Yay, let's make Z's movie canon . HOLY FUCK LUFFY DEFEATED A GUY WHO WAS ON PAIR WITH KIZARU .

Island level Luffy confirmed to be true .

Seriously, considering a game canon to the original series is just ... Ugh . You can consider it canon to itself but this is just pushing . Can you say one series that this happened ? Not even Star Wars games are canon to it's other franchises (And I know this because of ChaosTheory) . I've never seen a scalling like this ... Maybe Pok?mon, I'm not sure because I don't like Pok?mon but that's the only I can imagine . Scalling doesn't go this way .


----------



## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Yay, let's make Z's movie canon . HOLY FUCK LUFFY DEFEATED A GUY WHO WAS ON PAIR WITH KIZARU .
> 
> Island level Luffy confirmed to be true .
> 
> Seriously, considering a game canon to the original series is just ... Ugh . You can consider it canon to itself but this is just pushing . Can you say one series that this happened ? Not even Star Wars games are canon to it's other franchises (And I know this because of ChaosTheory) . I've never seen a scalling like this ... Maybe Pok?mon, I'm not sure because I don't like Pok?mon but that's the only I can imagine . Scalling doesn't go this way .



The Star Wars video games were canon.  Star Wars in general is (or at least was) the poster child for expanded universes.  Jedi Knight and Knights of the Old Republic come to mind as stories that were considered just as valid as Star Wars novels and comics.

As far as other examples go, there's the Walking Dead game, Young Justice Legacy, Aliens Colonial Marines (which was shit, but being shit doesn't change how Fox did approve it as canon) & Alien Isolation,  the various Warhammer games, etc.  Video games tend to be used less as avenues for an expanded universe than comics or novels -- probably because expanded universe material is usually supposed to be an inexpensive way of expanding a story, and video games can be just as expensive as whole movies.  But there's nothing about video games which somehow makes them automatically non-canon to whatever series they are from.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 25, 2014)

Except the contradictions and the authors not saying it's canon . You need the author saying on the subject .


----------



## Banhammer (Oct 25, 2014)

Games aren't as canon as the comics. Game Mechanics based feats


----------



## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Except the contradictions and the authors not saying it's canon . You need the author saying on the subject .



Contradictions such as?  I already pointed out that the game is set between seasons 2 and 3 of the show, not season 3 and 4.  And the creators have said that the game is meant to fit with the rest of the series.  If you really need the creators explicitly stating it's canon, even if they _wrote it_, then the whole Legend of Korra series is not canon to Avatar: The Last Airbender.  They've never explicitly said it was canon, after all.


----------



## AgentAAA (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> The Star Wars video games were canon.  Star Wars in general is (or at least was) the poster child for expanded universes.  Jedi Knight and Knights of the Old Republic come to mind as stories that were considered just as valid as Star Wars novels and comics.
> 
> As far as other examples go, there's the Walking Dead game, Young Justice Legacy, Aliens Colonial Marines (which was shit, but being shit doesn't change how Fox did approve it as canon) & Alien Isolation,  the various Warhammer games, etc.  Video games tend to be used less as avenues for an expanded universe than comics or novels -- probably because expanded universe material is usually supposed to be an inexpensive way of expanding a story, and video games can be just as expensive as whole movies.  But there's nothing about video games which somehow makes them automatically non-canon to whatever series they are from.



you're ignoring the issue I posted earlier. If Star wars specifically didn't have statements it's EU was canon, we wouldn't consider it canon either. You need to have support in the form of statements that the game is included in canon, or something regarding canon policy. Otherwise it's discounted.


----------



## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> you're ignoring the issue I posted earlier. If Star wars specifically didn't have statements it's EU was canon, we wouldn't consider it canon either. You need to have support in the form of statements that the game is included in canon, or something regarding canon policy. Otherwise it's discounted.



Star Wars has statements that its EU material in general is canon, with specific exceptions.  But there's never any specific statement that, say, the Thrawn trilogy, or the Tales of the Jedi comics, or the Knights of the Old Republic games were canon.  By that standard, a specific statement of the Legend of Korra game being canon isn't needed.  As for a general canon policy, there is no definitive statement either way for Avatar/Legend of Korra.  This does not mean things are _not_ canon, it just makes things a little more murky.  If something had its story developed and written by the creators, then it should be canon, as there's nothing to indicate that it isn't canon.  This applies equally to the comics and the recent game.


----------



## Rivers (Oct 25, 2014)

Do you really need to discuss game mechanics here though? 

Korra (even without AS) has four bending arts at her disposal, Mako has quick-draw Lightningbending, Bolin has LAVABENDING, and Asami has a one-hit knock out glove.


----------



## Darth (Oct 25, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> pretty sure games aint canon for avatar. never seen that game before though, so if it's stated as canon that's fine.





Wan said:


> The creators stated that they figured out how it would fit in to the timeline of the show.  Plus it was written by them to begin with.



As someone who just recently played through and beat the entire game, that shit is not canon at all. Not in the slightest. I'm talking about feats and abilities here. Korra casually airbends ten times as much air as she's ever done in the show with a press of the button. Trying to call this game's feats "canon" is absurd.

Korra can earthbend out of wood in the game. She can waterbend oceans out of the air. Like, come on Wan at least play the game before you try to cite it.


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## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

Darth said:


> As someone who just recently played through and beat the entire game, that shit is not canon at all. Not in the slightest. I'm talking about feats and abilities here. Korra casually airbends ten times as much air as she's ever done in the show with a press of the button. Trying to call this game's feats "canon" is absurd.
> 
> Korra can earthbend out of wood in the game. She can waterbend oceans out of the air. Like, come on Wan at least play the game before you try to cite it.



You're talking game mechanics, which I would never use.  The only things I would cite are the finishing move sequences, which are outside of game mechanics and don't involve "earthbending out of wood" and stuff like that.

And yes, I have played the game.  I've uploaded several videos from the game.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> Contradictions such as?  I already pointed out that the game is set between seasons 2 and 3 of the show, not season 3 and 4.  And the creators have said that the game is meant to fit with the rest of the series.  If you really need the creators explicitly stating it's canon, even if they _wrote it_, then the whole Legend of Korra series is not canon to Avatar: The Last Airbender.  They've never explicitly said it was canon, after all.



I wasn't talking about LoK at that point but ... I can say one thing: how come she doesn't remember fighting the guy in her nightmare-like visions ? Maybe she is now with Alzheimer, or maybe it's not fucking canon .


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## AgentAAA (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> Star Wars has statements that its EU material in general is canon, with specific exceptions.  But there's never any specific statement that, say, the Thrawn trilogy, or the Tales of the Jedi comics, or the Knights of the Old Republic games were canon.  By that standard, a specific statement of the Legend of Korra game being canon isn't needed.  As for a general canon policy, there is no definitive statement either way for Avatar/Legend of Korra.  This does not mean things are _not_ canon, it just makes things a little more murky.  If something had its story developed and written by the creators, then it should be canon, as there's nothing to indicate that it isn't canon.  This applies equally to the comics and the recent game.



you contradicted yourself.



> Star Wars has statements that its EU material in general is canon, with specific exceptions.  But there's never any specific statement that, say, the Thrawn trilogy, or the Tales of the Jedi comics, or the Knights of the Old Republic games were canon.





> But there's never any specific statement that, say, the Thrawn trilogy, or the Tales of the Jedi comics, or the Knights of the Old Republic games were canon.





> Star Wars has statements that its EU material in general is canon, with specific exceptions.


 Meaning that includes the thrawn trilogy, tales of the Jedi, and Knights of the Old Republic.



> By that standard, a specific statement of the Legend of Korra game being canon isn't needed.  As for a general canon policy, there is no definitive statement either way for Avatar/Legend of Korra.


Except that by that standard, we need something close to a general canon policy, since you need BOTH factors included.




> As for a general canon policy, there is no definitive statement either way for Avatar/Legend of Korra.  This does not mean things are _not_ canon, it just makes things a little more murky.  If something had its story developed and written by the creators, then it should be canon, as there's nothing to indicate that it isn't canon.


This has already been contradicted by things like the One piece movie that's been mentioned several times. Just because something is made by the creator doesn't make it canon if it's not in the primary source material. Star Wars holiday special comes to mind as something clearly not canon despite being a direct movie product by Lucas. Starring Bea Arthur.

It does make things a little murky, but I still am seeing no more reason to consider it canon than the bleach or naruto movies are.


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## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I wasn't talking about LoK at that point but ... I can say one thing: how come she doesn't remember fighting the guy in her nightmare-like visions ? Maybe she is now with Alzheimer, or maybe it's not fucking canon .



Or maybe it wasn't as tough a fight for her as the others.  Amon permanently took her bending, Unalaq tore Raava out of her, Zaheer poisoned her, kicked the shit out of her and almost suffocated her.  In the game, Hundun temporarily blocks her bending for a bit while she's unconscious...that's about it.  He's simply not as signficant an enemy to her, psychologically, as the others.



> Meaning that includes the thrawn trilogy, tales of the Jedi, and Knights of the Old Republic.



It includes them in general, but there is no specific statement for each individually that they're canon, like is being asked for the Korra game.



> This has already been contradicted by things like the One piece movie that's been mentioned several times. Just because something is made by the creator doesn't make it canon if it's not in the primary source material. Star Wars holiday special comes to mind as something clearly not canon despite being a direct movie product by Lucas. Starring Bea Arthur.
> 
> It does make things a little murky, but I still am seeing no more reason to consider it canon than the bleach or naruto movies are.



Do I look like I care about the One Piece movie?  What makes the One Piece movie non-canon, exactly?  Is it just more opinions of the fans?  Was the One Piece movie not only developed somewhat by Oda, but _fully written_ by Oda?  And last I checked, the Naruto and Bleach movies weren't written by Kishimoto or Kubo, either.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> It includes them in general


Which is all we're looking for. Something that states, in general, that something's canon. We're not saying "find something that says this is canon" we're saying "give us any reason why this would be canon". You're not giving us any except "the creators helped make it so it must be canon" which has never been a part of our canon policies here or... anywhere, really. 
Don't shift the goalpost here. We're not asking for a written legal document, just any point where the show makers said "this is canon" or "all expanded universe content is canon", or etc.



Wan said:


> Do I look like I care about the One Piece movie?  What makes the One Piece movie non-canon, exactly?  Is it just more opinions of the fans?  Was the One Piece movie not only developed somewhat by Oda, but _fully written_ by Oda?  And last I checked, the Naruto and Bleach movies weren't written by Kishimoto or Kubo, either.


It's not called Canon, and doesn't quite fit in the timeline. It would also require us to believe Luffy can beat someone on par with Admiral Kizaru despite the fact this means Luffy should be bull-dozing through every single recent arc by just one-shotting everyone.
 here's a lot of reasons, but the basic one is that it's a movie, made in such a way that it affects no development in the canon story, and thus can be safely ignored unless a statement comes down that it's indeed canon.
The last naruto movie had writing done by Kishimoto, actually, and I recall at least one of the movies has Kubo's writing in it. They also normally have designs drawn up by the mangaka, which counts as them working on it, so by your standards they should totally be canon. Despite that making no sense at all.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> Or maybe it wasn't as tough a fight for her as the others.  Amon permanently took her bending, Unalaq tore Raava out of her, Zaheer poisoned her, kicked the shit out of her and almost suffocated her.  In the game, Hundun temporarily blocks her bending for a bit while she's unconscious...that's about it.  He's simply not as signficant an enemy to her, psychologically, as the others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The dude made the exact same thing as Amon . And we all know at the time she was freaking out by even remembering Amon . So yeah, she should have remembered the dude . 

As I said earlier, the last one was(Done by Oda), and Oda liked it, but it wasn't canon and he reassured the fans that, like all other movies this one wasn't canon .

I don't know why I'm even arguing, the one who should provide the burden of proof of being canon is you .


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## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Which is all we're looking for. Something that states, in general, that something's canon. We're not saying "find something that says this is canon" we're saying "give us any reason why this would be canon". You're not giving us any except "the creators helped make it so it must be canon" which has never been a part of our canon policies here or... anywhere, really.
> Don't shift the goalpost here. We're not asking for a written legal document, just any point where the show makers said "this is canon" or "all expanded universe content is canon", or etc.



I think you'll find a lot of expanded universe material that people take for granted as canon, from a variety of franchises, isn't canon, then.  We don't need an explicit "This is canon" statement to infer that something can be considered canon.  Canon policies "here" are irrelevant; if you really want to invoke OBD standards, then I as the OP can just declare that the game is canon for this thread and be done with it.  As for other places, the  (along with the ATLA comics).



> It's not called Canon, and doesn't quite fit in the timeline.  It would also require us to believe Luffy can beat someone on par with Admiral Kizaru despite the fact this means Luffy should be bull-dozing through every single recent arc by just one-shotting everyone.



The creators of Avatar have specifically said that the game is supposed to fit with the timeline.  And Luffy beating someone like that is not related at all to whether or not the Legend of Korra game is canon.  If that's the reason the One Piece movie is not canon, it doesn't apply to the Legend of Korra game.



> There's a lot of reasons, but the basic one is that it's a movie, made in such a way that it affects no development in the canon story, and thus can be safely ignored unless a statement comes down that it's indeed canon.
> The last naruto movie had writing done by Kishimoto, actually, and I recall at least one of the movies has Kubo's writing in it. They also normally have designs drawn up by the mangaka, which counts as them working on it, so by your standards they should totally be canon. Despite that making no sense at all.



No, my standard is that if the story is closely developed and written by the show's writers/creators, then it's canon.  Designs are not the same as the story and writing.



> The dude made the exact same thing as Amon . And we all know at the time she was freaking out by even remembering Amon . So yeah, she should have remembered the dude .



No, what Amon did was more invasive and permanent than what Hundun did.  And Amon was a much more psychological enemy to Korra than Hundun was.



> As I said earlier, the last one was(Done by Oda), and Oda liked it, but it wasn't canon and he reassured the fans that, like all other movies this one wasn't canon .



Oh, so what makes the One Piece movie non-canon is that Oda has specifically said the movie isn't canon?  Ok great, by that standard you need a statement from the creators that the game is non-canon in order to equate the One Piece movie being non-canon with the Legend of Korra game being non-canon.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> I think you'll find a lot of expanded universe material that people take for granted as canon, from a variety of franchises, isn't canon, then.  We don't need an explicit "This is canon" statement to infer that something can be considered canon.  Canon policies "here" are irrelevant; if you really want to invoke OBD standards, then I as the OP can just declare that the game is canon for this thread and be done with it.  As for other places, the  (along with the ATLA comics).


Firstly - does it consider it canon, or just list it?
Secondly - sourcing? Because to my knowledge the Avatar Wiki is a fan source. It has even less clout here than the Daizenshuu does.
And yes, we generally do need something that states general canon policy to take EU content as canon. This is something we've generally needed here. If it's not a direct continuation like eps 4, 5, and 6, we need something stating it's canon or at the least an official continuation. Burden of proof for canon is on you, the burden of proving it's non-canon doesn't exist here.
and yes, you CAN do that, the same way people can claim Filler DBZ is usable for a thread, and etc.
That doesn't make it canon regardless, however.





> The creators of Avatar have specifically said that the game is supposed to fit with the timeline.  And Luffy beating someone like that is not related at all to whether or not the Legend of Korra game is canon.  If that's the reason the One Piece movie is not canon, it doesn't apply to the Legend of Korra game.


Which still doesn't prove that Korra's game IS canon.



> No, my standard is that if the story is closely developed and written by the show's writers/creators, then it's canon.  Designs are not the same as the story and writing.


Okay, so some of the DBZ movies that aren't canon then would be.
Again, the creators being involved in a secondary source does not immediately make a game canon. I can't stress this enough. We do NOT take that as canon.
Hell, to my knowledge I don't think BoG is even technically canon.



No, what Amon did was more invasive and permanent than what Hundun did.  And Amon was a much more psychological enemy to Korra than Hundun was.




> Oh, so what makes the One Piece movie non-canon is that Oda has specifically said the movie isn't canon?  Ok great, by that standard you need a statement from the creators that the game is non-canon in order to equate the One Piece movie being non-canon with the Legend of Korra game being non-canon.


Nope. He's just making a point that the creator being involved doesn't always = canon.


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## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Firstly - does it consider it canon, or just list it?
> Secondly - sourcing? Because to my knowledge the Avatar Wiki is a fan source. It has even less clout here than the Daizenshuu does.
> And yes, we generally do need something that states general canon policy to take EU content as canon. This is something we've generally needed here. If it's not a direct continuation like eps 4, 5, and 6, we need something stating it's canon or at the least an official continuation. Burden of proof for canon is on you, the burden of proving it's non-canon doesn't exist here.
> and yes, you CAN do that, the same way people can claim Filler DBZ is usable for a thread, and etc.
> That doesn't make it canon regardless, however.



The Avatar Wiki is a fan source, but my point was to disprove your implication that reason for the game to be considered canon isn't considered valid anywhere.



> Okay, so some of the DBZ movies that aren't canon then would be.
> Again, the creators being involved in a secondary source does not immediately make a game canon. I can't stress this enough. We do NOT take that as canon.
> Hell, to my knowledge I don't think BoG is even technically canon.



As far as I know, the only DBZ movie that had close involvement with the story from Toriyama was BoG.  And I was under the impression that BoG was considered canon



> Nope. He's just making a point that the creator being involved doesn't always = canon.



If we have a reason for it to not be canon, ie the creator specifically saying it isn't canon.  Which we don't have for the Legend of Korra game.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> The Avatar Wiki is a fan source, but my point was to disprove your implication that reason for the game to be considered canon isn't considered valid anywhere.


The reason isn't valid here, and I doubt it's valid on any other vs. site, which is generally what I meant by "anywhere.". I apologize for making this statement so broad you thought I meant or cared about the Wiki's opinion.



> As far as I know, the only DBZ movie that had close involvement with the story from Toriyama was BoG.  And I was under the impression that BoG was considered canon


To my knowledge, unless a canon statement comes out, I'm not actually sure. It's at least it's own continuity and continues the story though, which is why it's generally used I do believe. But I'm not sure if BoG is actually canon.
and to my knowledge there are a couple movies that had some direct story input from Toriyama - and one that didn't which is canon anyway(That is, Bardock) due to having it's stuff included in the manga later.




> If we have a reason for it to not be canon, ie the creator specifically saying it isn't canon.  Which we don't have for the Legend of Korra game.



except that we still need a reason for the Korra game to be canon, Wan. That's what we're looking for. Literally anything saying it's canonical. You've still failed to deliver on that short of a fanwiki's opinion.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> I think you'll find a lot of expanded universe material that people take for granted as canon, from a variety of franchises, isn't canon, then.  We don't need an explicit "This is canon" statement to infer that something can be considered canon.  Canon policies "here" are irrelevant; if you really want to invoke OBD standards, then I as the OP can just declare that the game is canon for this thread and be done with it.  As for other places, the  (along with the ATLA comics).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can't read properly or you are just trying to fit your criteria ?



> As I said earlier, the last one was(Done by Oda), and Oda liked it, but it wasn't canon and he *reassured *the fans that, like *all other movies* this one wasn't canon .


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## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> except that we still need a reason for the Korra game to be canon, Wan. That's what we're looking for. Literally anything saying it's canonical. You've still failed to deliver on that short of a fanwiki's opinion.



Tim Hedrick, a writer from the series, wrote the game.  The creators developed the story with him.  That's the reason.  Your argument boils down to that it's your opinion that it's not enough to be canon.  You have no reason for it to _not_ be canon, in counter to my reason.



Mr. Black Leg said:


> You can't read properly or you are just trying to fit your criteria ?



But he needed to make that statement in order to make that clear, unlike how we just assume the other movies are non-canon with or without a statement.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 25, 2014)

He was asked in a SBS by a fan . Not a statement .


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## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> He was asked in a SBS by a fan . Not a statement .



...that's still a statement.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> Tim Hedrick, a writer from the series, wrote the game.  The creators developed the story with him.  That's the reason.  Your argument boils down to that it's your opinion that it's not enough to be canon.  You have no reason for it to _not_ be canon, in counter to my reason..


because it's never been enough evidence for the OBD - ignoring the fact that you're not arguing the story is canon but that the specific animation for the finishing moves is, which I'm almost certain they weren't overseeing development of.
Basically, what you're saying at the moment is "I think it's canon because the creators had some participation". What you're not saying is "it's stated to be canon or has canon policy" which is what is needed.
Again, burden of proof is on you. Not "supporting evidence" something that says "This has a general or specific statement making it canon" which you haven't provided. If you already had that and I had a reason to contradict it regardless, then sure, burden of proof would be on me. But at the moment, nothing you've said has anything to do with the canonicity of the game.




> But he needed to make that statement in order to make that clear, unlike how we just assume the other movies are non-canon with or without a statement.


because a fan asked him. Not because he felt any specific need to make sure this was for certain to the world or that there was general doubt. This has also needed to be clarified for DBZ's anime/movies in Q and A's and etc. so I'm not sure why this suddenly changes anything.


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## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> because it's never been enough evidence for the OBD - ignoring the fact that you're not arguing the story is canon but that the specific animation for the finishing moves is, which I'm almost certain they weren't overseeing development of.
> Basically, what you're saying at the moment is "I think it's canon because the creators had some participation". What you're not saying is "it's stated to be canon or has canon policy" which is what is needed.
> Again, burden of proof is on you. Not "supporting evidence" something that says "This has a general or specific statement making it canon" which you haven't provided. If you already had that and I had a reason to contradict it regardless, then sure, burden of proof would be on me. But at the moment, nothing you've said has anything to do with the canonicity of the game.



What I'm saying is that it's canon because of the _same thing_ that makes the TV series canon to the Avatar world -- being developed by the creators and written by one of the show's writers.  That is a fact, not my opinion.

You may have a point that the animation for the finishing moves wouldn't have been overseen by the show's creators.  But do you have specific evidence for it?  It's not like the sequences are inconsistent with the series itself, as two of the sequences (the waterbending and airbending ones) have actually been done with mecha tanks in the show.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 25, 2014)

We weren't rolling with BoG being canon till Toriyama said otherwise .

Seriously, Wan, you are just wanking too hard and trying to shift the burden of proof . We assume it's not cause it's the standard, if it was, then Oda would have to release a statement about every fucking game and he never did that . He himself says that he doesn't like to get involved with merchandise and he discovers merchandise of toys a little late . 

But for each and every non-canon stuff(filler) that the animators put and involves new character or something that alters the plot they ask him if they can do it, if he's not planning on using the specific ideas in the future . So, does this mean that all that is canon because Oda said go ahead ? No . It means that they are creating filler, and in order not to fuck up the plot for anime only watchers they need to consult the guy who actually knows the plot .


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## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> We weren't rolling with BoG being canon till Toriyama said otherwise .
> 
> Seriously, Wan, you are just wanking too hard and trying to shift the burden of proof . We assume it's not cause it's the standard, if it was, then Oda would have to release a statement about every fucking game and he never did that . He himself says that he doesn't like to get involved with merchandise and he discovers merchandise of toys a little late .
> 
> But for each and every non-canon stuff(filler) that the animators put and involves new character or something that alters the plot they ask him if they can do it, if he's not planning on using the specific ideas in the future . So, does this mean that all that is canon because Oda said go ahead ? No . It means that they are creating filler, and in order not to fuck up the plot for anime only watchers they need to consult the guy who actually knows the plot .



Is Oda involved in the story and writing of each game?  If not, then that point is irrelevant.  And I'm not saying the Legend of Korra game is canon because the creators "said go ahead", either.  Their involvement was much closer than that.  You keep making comparisons that don't apply to the Legend of Korra game.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> What I'm saying is that it's canon because of the _same thing_ that makes the TV series canon to the Avatar world -- being developed by the creators and written by one of the show's writers.  That is a fact, not my opinion.
> 
> You may have a point that the animation for the finishing moves wouldn't have been overseen by the show's creators.  But do you have specific evidence for it?  It's not like the sequences are inconsistent with the series itself, as two of the sequences (the waterbending and airbending ones) have actually been done with mecha tanks in the show.



Wow. Just... Wow.
The thing that makes the TV series canon, shockingly, is NOT the fact that it's developed and written by the writers.
It's because the TV series is the primary source material.
The TV series is the main series for Korra. Everything built off of it is a spin-off of that TV series. The TV series of Avatar itself is the primary canon via being the primary way the story is conveyed and told, as well as the first way.
As a result, the series is canon towards itself.
If the TV series was, instead, a spin-off of a game/Movie series, we would actually need statements for it being canon. Just like any EU product.
It's not like this standard is new, Wan. Nor is it like this is evidence no one can pull up. Most series have something regarding canon policy, and if they don't we generallly treat the EU as just secondary/filler regardless. 
But to put it simply, at this point, this is really starting to feel like stonewalling, and you still haven't done the thing that's been asked for: brought evidence for EU content to be canon to the table. Just your opinion on what should be canon.


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## Wan (Oct 25, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Wow. Just... Wow.
> The thing that makes the TV series canon, shockingly, is NOT the fact that it's developed and written by the writers.
> It's because the TV series is the primary source material.
> The TV series is the main series for Korra. Everything built off of it is a spin-off of that TV series. The TV series of Avatar itself is the primary canon via being the primary way the story is conveyed and told, as well as the first way.
> ...



I'm not sure you understand what "primary source" means.  Primary source simply means that it's an original version of something.  The Legend of Korra game has a storyline original to the game, making it primary source material also.  Something like an anime adaptation of a manga is not primary source.  An original movie of a manga technically _is_ a primary source, so if an original movie isn't canon then there has to be other reasons for it to not be canon.  If you're going to argue that only the TV show counts as the "original version", that's arbitrary.  I could just as easily argue that the very first episode of Legend of Korra is the "original version" and the rest of the series is non-canon.

So even going by the "primary source material" reasoning, there's just as much reason to call the Legend of Korra game canon as the main TV show.  But I maintain that whether or not something is original, a "primary source", is not what makes it canon.  Official, close involvement from the franchise's creators and writers is one thing that makes something canon.  The other thing that can make something canon, if the creators are not so closely involved, is at least official recognition from the creators.

Look at it this way.  You are asking for the creators to say that something _they did themselves_ is canon.  If it was something done by an outside writer, like tends to happen with original movies of manga franchises, that would be an understandable question.  But the creators don't need to sign off on something _they did themselves_.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> Is Oda involved in the story and writing of each game?  If not, then that point is irrelevant.  And I'm not saying the Legend of Korra game is canon because the creators "said go ahead", either.  Their involvement was much closer than that.  You keep making comparisons that don't apply to the Legend of Korra game.



That don't apply, like Z's movie which Oda was really conected with ?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 25, 2014)

This thread just continues to get shittier and shittier.


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## Tacocat (Oct 25, 2014)

Bryan and Mike probably have a fucking Twitter. Just go ask there. God damn.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 25, 2014)

Wan said:


> I
> Look at it this way.  You are asking for the creators to say that something _they did themselves_ is canon.  If it was something done by an outside writer, like tends to happen with original movies of manga franchises, that would be an understandable question.  But the creators don't need to sign off on something _they did themselves_.



except until stated by toriyama, we didn't even consider BoG canon.
And it's not like creators have ever done alternate timelines, or side events that don't count, even though that's happened plenty of times in different mediums.
I'm not asking the creators to sign off. I'm asking you to prove they mean this to be canon to the Korra series, preferably by showing that ANY of the plot is referenced by actual episodes, which would be easiest. They need to give a statement or some form of reference for the game to be canon.
Creators do non-canonical things from time to time as well, and in terms of it being canon... the burden of proof is on you to prove they meant it to be canon, not on us to prove it wasn't. There is no conclusive evidence one way or the other, so guess where that leaves us?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 26, 2014)

Tacocat said:


> Bryan and Mike probably have a fucking Twitter. Just go ask there. God damn.



Good solution .

Go ask'em Wan .

Also, I can't help to see this sign, and not want to rep you .


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## GearsUp (Oct 27, 2014)

Fujita said:


> ...in the Avatarverse, chucking rocks that size has never exactly been what you'd call "comical"
> 
> More like the kind of thing Aang was pulling off against Ozai. Albeit with worse timing (and slightly smaller rocks? idk, these are still massive compared to the norm), but then Korra's also suffering from fucking mercury poisoning here. She couldn't lay a finger on Zaheer, but I... really doubt that Azula is as mobile as he is in the air, even with comet propulsion.



aang vs ozai was more destructive to me. I literally laughed at those feats. 

she doesnt need to run from korra cause she can fight on par with those feats at least

one lighting strike> those videos


@wan: her entire last fight


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## Fujita (Oct 27, 2014)

GearsUp said:


> she doesnt need to run from korra cause she can fight on par with those feats at least
> 
> one lighting strike> those videos



Azula can take care of those rocks with lightning? That seems... implausible. Can you give some evidence for that 

Or do you mean she can just shoot Korra with it


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## GearsUp (Oct 28, 2014)

I mean she'd shoot korra.


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## Rivers (Oct 28, 2014)

Didn't base Korra react to a close-range bomb detonation? 

How fast does Azula charge up her Lightningbending?


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## GearsUp (Oct 28, 2014)

I don't remember man shit! I concede, AS korra wins s2-3


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