# Hebi Sasuke vs. Tsunade



## Ersa (Jun 27, 2015)

*Location*: Grassfields
*Distance*: 10m
*Knowledge*: Full
*Mindset*: IC, intent to kill.
*Restrictions*: 
- None, assume Orochimaru will come out in case of exhaustion but whether he chooses to protect Sasuke or not is up to you.


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2015)

Tsunade wins mid difficult at most.


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## Pocalypse (Jun 27, 2015)

Sharingan + precog, vastly superior speed and reactions, CS1 and 2, Chidori variants like Eiso and Nagashi is too much for Tsunade to handle her. With full knowledge too meaning Sasuke knows about Tsunade's power so he won't even get hit by her punches with his speed. Even if he was to get a hit, he can just use Oral Rebirth to escape then clock her off in his next move.


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## Deer Lord (Jun 27, 2015)

Katsuyu solos.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2015)

Tsunade is a bad match up, but Sasuke still ends up winning, high dif.


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## LostSelf (Jun 27, 2015)

One of two things can happen.

Or Sasuke predicts her movement and punch like he did to Ei and cuts her in half, or he stupidly stabs her and dies. Considering both have full knowledge, Tsunade will be aware of Sasuke's blade and precog. However, if he gets her mid-strike and dodges her, she cannot do much.

Bah, i'll go the easy route and avoid a flying kick: Tsunade tanks everything thrown at him, regrows a new head asking With Cosmo and Wanda's magic wand and outlasts/runs through everything Sasuke throws at her and punches him in the face.

I mean, she fought 5 Susano'o clones that are stronger than Sasuke, for hours.

Adding Katsuyu and this is a rape.


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## raptor360 (Jun 27, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> One of two things can happen.
> 
> Or Sasuke predicts her movement and punch like he did to Ei and cuts her in half, or he stupidly stabs her and dies. Considering both have full knowledge, Tsunade will be aware of Sasuke's blade and precog. However, if he gets her mid-strike and dodges her, she cannot do much.
> 
> ...



Yep.Tsunade beats every form of sasuke up till his ems form.
She loses against Ems and EoS Sasuke of course.


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## Mercurial (Jun 27, 2015)

Oh my god

Sasuke blitzes her head off

Reactions: Like 1


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## RBL (Jun 27, 2015)

CS2 Sasuke is too stronkkkk and sexy, he wins mid-diff.


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## Bonly (Jun 27, 2015)

Sasuke is faster then her, he has better reflexes via Sharingan, he has genjutsu, his sword which can be helpful via Chidori blade, Chidori Nagashi and Chidori Eisō can easily help him against Tsunade in landing damage. He'll be constantly hurting and he should be able to dodge most of her attacks and now we can also throw in CS1+CS2 to further boost his speed and jutsu power and he'll be able to do quite a bit of damage to her. On the flip side I don't think Sasuke knows about her strength which means if he chose to block an attack he'd be dead for the most part and with Byakugo she'll be able to keep taking Sasuke's attacks and she could prolly outlast him as well. Though Sasuke has Kirin as well so I'm not sure if Tsunade would like through it so that's a thing as well if Sasuke uses it. So imo this becomes a case of which is likely to happen more times then not, is it A) Sasuke eventually lands a head shot or B)Tsunade manages to land a shot or him or C) One outlast the other. 

Now that's what I would normally say if the Great Katsuyu-Sama was restriction buttttttttt as the OP said:


Ersatz said:


> *Restrictions*:
> - None



So Tsunade summons the Queen of solo and the Queen does what she does best and beats Sasuke just like she beat Itachi


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## LostSelf (Jun 27, 2015)

raptor360 said:


> Yep.Tsunade beats every form of sasuke up till his ems form.
> She loses against Ems and EoS Sasuke of course.



MS Sasuke defeats her with Amaterasu and Enton.


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## Bonly (Jun 27, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> MS Sasuke defeats her with Amaterasu and Enton.



The Juubi got rid of the part of it's body that was on fire. Guess who else can get rid of parts of her body and protect Tsunade from Ama+Enton? Oh yeah I'm sure you guessed it.


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## LostSelf (Jun 27, 2015)

Bonly said:


> The Juubi got rid of the part of it's body that was on fire. Guess who else can get rid of parts of her body and protect Tsunade from Ama+Enton? Oh yeah I'm sure you guessed it.



But i am talking about Katsuyu's summon, not Katsuyu itself .


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

Sasuke is faster, more reflexive, more perceptive, smarter, and basically uses a lightsaber. Even without genjutsu or ninjutsu, he would win quite handily. Tsunade's a very bad match up for him.​


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## FlamingRain (Jun 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Even without genjutsu or ninjutsu, he would win quite handily.​



You cannot really mean this.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> You cannot really mean this.



I was thinking about making another thread like this:

*Fighter 1* He's faster, can predict movement, and has a lightsaber.

*Fighter 2* He's slower, stronger, and needs to lose his head to lose.

It's IMO a flaw in the BD hive-mind to want to "write" fights.

Where characters have to use everything to a duel's climax to sell to readers.

When ability-wise, sometimes the solution is simpler.

This is one of those times.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I was thinking about making another thread like this:
> 
> *Fighter 1* He's faster, can predict movement, and has a lightsaber.
> 
> ...



This has nothing to do with a "hive-mind" of the BD, I just don't think what you said there makes a lick of sense ability-wise.

Sasuke is faster, can predict movement, and has a sword.

Tsunade is more accomplished in Taijutsu, is stronger, has taken stabbing and slashing attacks from the actual Kusanagi Blade without being incapacitated (i.e.- is resilient enough to endure a hit in order to score one), possesses techniques such as Ranshinshō and Shosen that only need a brief tap to incapacitate or knock-out, and can regenerate all of her organs and limbs to top it off.

Besides close-quarters-combat she also has a giant acid-spitting slug that you can stab and cut a million times without actually doing anything to it.

No Ninjutsu or Genjutsu = a demolished Sasuke.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 27, 2015)

Well, I doubt Tsunade can take a Chidori to the head, so ...


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## StickaStick (Jun 27, 2015)

ITT, people who believe Hebi Sasuke > Five of Madara's legged Susanoo clones 

Tsunade low to mid diff.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Well, I doubt Tsunade can take a Chidori to the head, so ...



Was this directed at me?

Because if it is, Chidori is a Ninjutsu, so my point stands even if that is the case.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 27, 2015)

Sasuke wins high difficulty, he was able to push Itachi to Susano'o with base powers and he still had Orochimaru's powers to play with. No way Tsunade poses as much difficulty as Itachi, plus this would happen to her.

Let's not forget, regardless of whatever her regeneration abilities are, no way in hell she avoids something like this or is coming back from it.

It's like you people forgot what Hebi Sasuke stand above most of the other shinobi. Tsunade at her speed, isn't coming close to touching Base Sasuke, if you give him CS1 /CS2, then basically Sasuke will dance around her with her not being able to react.


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## Deer Lord (Jun 27, 2015)

sasuke isn't surviving long enough against someone of tsunade's caliber to activate kirin
only reason he did against itachi is because he wasn't going to kill him.

genjutsu isn't going to be much of a problem to someone like tsunade who has high level chakra control.

and you people are talking like tsunade isn't going to kill him with any single blow.
plus sasuke has jack shit against katsuyu sama


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## StickaStick (Jun 27, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> *Sasuke wins high difficulty, he was able to push Itachi to Susano'o with base powers* and he still had Orochimaru's powers to play with. No way Tsunade poses as much difficulty as Itachi, plus this would happen to her.
> .


Itachi was doggin' it man. 

Also, someone want to explain to me how this Sasuke deals with the Queen of Solo and avoids being forced to take a swim in a pool of acid?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Itachi was doggin' it man.
> 
> Also, someone want to explain to me how this Sasuke deals with the Queen of Solo and avoids being forced to take a swim in a pool of acid?



 Easy. Manda did it.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Itachi was doggin' it man.
> 
> Also, someone want to explain to me how this Sasuke deals with the Queen of Solo and avoids being forced to take a swim in a pool of acid?



Fair enough, he wasn't healthy, but even Itachi "doggin'" it was more dangerous than Tsunade. There are things you are ignoring, like the enormous speed gap, kirin and etc. When Tsunade summons Katsuyu, Sasuke summons Manda, simple as that, he's not under-qualified to fight her, he's actually out of her league.

He can avoid by flying, he has wings and he can resort to them should the situation present itself. Her acid spit is something he would also have knowledge of thanks to Orochimaru.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> ITT, people who believe Hebi Sasuke > Five of Madara's legged Susanoo clones
> 
> Tsunade low to mid diff.



Hint: Tsunade didn't beat those Susano'o clones.


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## StickaStick (Jun 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Easy. Manda did it.


Manda is faster than Hebi Sasuke. Not to mention this Katsuyu was a much smaller portion that what Tsunade should be capable of summoning.



Ryuzaki said:


> Fair enough, he wasn't healthy, but even Itachi "doggin'" it was more dangerous than Tsunade. There are things you are ignoring, like the enormous speed gap, kirin and etc. When Tsunade summons Katsuyu, Sasuke summons Manda, simple as that, he's not under-qualified to fight her, he's actually out of her league.
> 
> He can avoid by flying, he has wings and he can resort to them should the situation present itself. Her acid spit is something he would also have knowledge of thanks to Orochimaru.


A doggin' it Itachi is not more dangerous than Tsunade, although they both low-mid diff. Sasuke if they go all out.

Addressing your other points: Sasuke is faster than Tsunade but it's questionable how much that will aid him when Tsunade can tank virutally all of his offense. If Sasuke tries to take her head with a Chidori he telegraphs his attack and leaves himself open to the possibility that Tsunade dodges and then breaks Sasuke's jaw, or worse.

Kirin is a circumstantial techniques that likely won't even see the light of day in this match considering Sasuke won't be able to afford to stand around and spit fire at the sky when he'll have multiple opponents (Tsuande + multiple Katsuyu boss summons) to content with.

Finally, Manda V2 or whatever snake he chooses to summon isn't contending with a sizable Katsuyu summon, and in fact can't contend with even one boss sized summon considering Katsuyu can split herself if a snake summons tries to constrict her as she did in canon. I also doubt Hebi Sasuke had his hawk summon at that point considering he didn't use it against Deidara which would have been an ideal time to use it; in fact, he probably saw that Deidara being able to take flight was a major reason for him struggling against him and decided to at least somewhat remedy it by obtaining a flying summon.



Strategoob said:


> Hint: Tsunade didn't beat those Susano'o clones.


Considering this doesn't address the point I was making I'll assume it went right over your head.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Considering this doesn't address the point I was making I'll assume it went right over your head.



Merp.

Mei > 5 Susano'o clones > Sasuke


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## StickaStick (Jun 27, 2015)

Like I said, right over your head.

I suggest you troll elsewhere because I personally don't have the time for it.


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## StickaStick (Jun 27, 2015)

Strat, you really should settle on a point because I hate to see you waste your time writing a whole bunch of nonsense only to erase it all and settle for one piece of it 

But since you went through that effort I might as well humor you.

I said: *"ITT, people who believe Hebi Sasuke > Five of Madara's legged Susanoo clones"*

You somehow and, frankly, inexplicably came to the conclusion that I was asserting Tsunade > Fine legged Susanoo clones, when in reality when you analyze my statement there is no such deduction to be made from what I'm saying. 

More appropriately it would be since Sasuke =/= Five of Madara's legged Susanoo clones and since Five of Madara's legged Susanoo clones were not able to kill Tsunade, then rationally given the lack of any substantial favorable matchups benefits in Sasuke's favor as opposed to the legged Susanoo clones Sasuke will not be able to do something said legged Susanoo clones weren't able to do--which is defeat Tsunade.

Now was that so hard to follow?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Manda is faster than Hebi Sasuke. Not to mention this Katsuyu was a much smaller portion that what Tsunade should be capable of summoning.



 Manda's also a bigger target, so that speed gap isn't enough to negate that weakness yet Manda sitll effortlessly dodged Katsuyu and contended with Gamabunta at the same time.. Manda also lacks flight an with Sasuke's Sharingan, it should allow him to effectively dodge her Acid at the proper time consideirng Deva Path effortlessly did so against 3 Boss Summons. 

 Though arguably, speed-wise, Hebi Sasuke could be well up there when consider the fact that Hebi Sasuke managed to evade C4's range and get within Deidara's blindspot which is an impressive speed feat when we consider the distance he flew just to get there and that's not even Pure Shunshin speed.

 Other than the Sannin fight, Tsunade has never used Katsuyu offensively and there's no reason I'd assume she'd start the fight with Katsuyu before she gets overwhelmed by Hebi Sasuke.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 27, 2015)

If she would be overwhelmed otherwise and has full knowledge why wouldn't she start with Katsuyu?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 27, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> If she would be overwhelmed otherwise and has full knowledge why wouldn't she start with Katsuyu?



 Maybe it's because she never opted to ever using it against Madara. I've never seen anything Katsuyu has done offensively that was impressive. All that was shown was Manda effortlessly dodging her Acid as Manda speed-blitzed away and continued to dominate against Gamabunta. This is taking into consideration of a Slug's Advantage of a Snake. 

 I'm not convinced that Katsuyu is as strong as you say she is and even then, Hebi Sasuke has counters for it.


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## StickaStick (Jun 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Manda's also a bigger target, so that speed gap isn't enough to negate that weakness yet Manda sitll effortlessly dodged Katsuyu and contended with Gamabunta at the same time.. Manda also lacks flight an with Sasuke's Sharingan, it should allow him to effectively dodge her Acid at the proper time consideirng Deva Path effortlessly did so against 3 Boss Summons.


Manda's size has no noticeable effect on his speed. If he's able to dodge Katusuy's acid, then he's able to dodge it. Hebi Sasuke simply isn't as fast.

Deva Path needed an amplified ST in order to clear space against the frogs, otherwise he would have continued to be pressured. Difference here is that: Katsuyu's acid won't be as easy to avoid given it's not a straight-forward attack such as the frog's whacking away with their weapons, but covers more of an unpredictable "hit-box" if you will that will take more finesse in order to dodge. You're right that the Sharingan will greatly aid Sasuke in this, but it bears mentioning that: one, Sasuke will be dealing with multiple Katsuyu's spitting acid from multiple angles, which compromises Sasuke's Sharingan perception (can't dodge what you can't see); and two, any effort Sasuke expends towards dodging Katsuyu's acid and just having to be cognizant of it is energy and time he isn't using focusing on Tsunade. Sasuke also doesn't have an easy out like Deva Path did.



> Though arguably, speed-wise, Hebi Sasuke could be well up there when consider the fact that Hebi Sasuke managed to evade C4's range and get within Deidara's blindspot which is an impressive speed feat when we consider the distance he flew just to get there and that's not even Pure Shunshin speed.


You'll have to refresh my memory, but wasn't Sasuke aided by genjutsu (in part because Deidara nonsensically thought he was immune) and didn't Deidara assume victory at that point leaving him completely unaware to any sneak attack Sasuke might make?



> Other than the Sannin fight, Tsunade has never used Katsuyu offensively and there's no reason I'd assume she'd start the fight with Katsuyu before she gets overwhelmed by Hebi Sasuke.


Tsunade has full-knowledge, so if she knows she's at a considerable disadvantage I don't see any reason for her to wait around. The argument that she never uses Katsuyu offensively is a tired one, as outside of the Sannin Showdown she never had a real opportunity to do so. So basically, the one time the circumstances were right (Sannin Showdown) she _did _summon Katsuyu and _did _use it offensively.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> A doggin' it *Itachi is not more dangerous than Tsunade*, although they both low-mid diff. Sasuke if they go all out.


I was going to respond to your post but then I realized, if you really believe that given Itachi's arsenal...Do I even need to mention anything outside of Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susano'o (w/Totsuka and Yata)? 



StickaStick said:


> Addressing your other points: Sasuke is faster than Tsunade but it's questionable how much that will aid him when Tsunade can tank virutally all of his offense. If Sasuke tries to take her head with a Chidori he telegraphs his attack and leaves himself open to the possibility that Tsunade dodges and then breaks Sasuke's jaw, or worse.


According to the databook, Sasuke is a full tier (4.5) faster than Tsunade (3.5) and on top of that he has the sharingan.  Point being, Tsunade is rated at the same speed tier as Naruto (3.5), before SM training. At his full speed, Sasuke is far superior to Tsunade, to the point where it's ridiculous to assume that she's going to hit him.

Despite the fact that she can probably tank some of his jutsu, she'd still be suffering the after effects of the jutsu (e.g. Chidori Nagashi). Then there are techniques to which Sasuke can use raiton flow to increase it's slicing ability. It was already demonstrated that Tsunade's durability is rather weak against the normal Kusanagi. A raiton-enhanced Kusanagi, would effectively lop off her limbs and she can't regrow those.

That's all assuming Sasuke won't use genjutsu, which if he does resort to, it will likely lead to a full blown opening for him to exploit. Sasuke was able to overpower Orochimaru, who is rated as an expert in the field. Tsunade cannot hope to compete with that.



StickaStick said:


> Kirin is a circumstantial techniques that likely won't even see the light of day in this match considering Sasuke won't be able to afford to stand around and spit fire at the sky when he'll have multiple opponents (Tsuande + multiple Katsuyu boss summons) to content with.


Sasuke was able to lay the ground work himself and execute his jutsu after engaging Itachi's Amaterasu. He created the opening himself and Katsuyu would likely be preoccupied with Manda. Tsunade's lack of durability and her slow speed, will be the reason why she loses to this jutsu. Sasuke will be forced to use this upon realizing how his regular katosn and chidori aren't going to cut it.



StickaStick said:


> Finally, Manda V2 or whatever snake he chooses to summon isn't contending with a sizable Katsuyu summon, and in fact can't contend with even one boss sized summon considering Katsuyu can split herself if a snake summons tries to constrict her as she did in canon. I also doubt Hebi Sasuke had his hawk summon at that point considering he didn't use it against Deidara which would have been an ideal time to use it; in fact, he probably saw that Deidara being able to take flight was a major reason for him struggling against him and decided to at least somewhat remedy it by obtaining a flying summon.


Manda will be more than enough to deal with it, he's actually shown shedding his abilities and can engage Katsuyu (whether large or small) from underground. As for flying, I wasn't referring to his Hawk summon, I was referring to this.


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## ShadoLord (Jun 27, 2015)

Tsunade should win logically, but Sasuke did defeat Orochimaru easily


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## Veracity (Jun 27, 2015)

Which incarnation of Tsuande is this? Pain arc Tsuande would low difficultly Sasuke via 10 Katsuyu summon. War arc Tsuande would also win with high difficulty. Going CQC Tsuande and Katusyu is literally suicide. Katusyu negates Genjustu, and Tsuande is vastly superior in Taijustu while also having the strength, durabilty, resilience, and endurance advantage. Sasuke holds the speed advantage and that doesn't overpower all the other obvious advantages. Tsuandes natural resilience and pain tolerance almost entirely negates Raiton varients and Katsuyu absorption tanks Kirin via full knowledge. Sasuke is literally screwed.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> More appropriately it would be since Sasuke =/= Five of Madara's legged Susanoo clones and since Five of Madara's legged Susanoo clones were not able to kill Tsunade, then rationally



You _really_ don't see a problem with thinking. _Really?_

You're new here, but an old forum adage used to be "Naruto is not DBZ."

i.e. A > B > C does not work as unique jutsu that play major roles.


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## Veracity (Jun 27, 2015)

@Ryukaki
Umm yeah hell no. Tsuandes speed stat comes from the pain arc and not even the war arc, it can hardly even be used. The speed stay also only includes raw speed and doesn't consider the flicker( which would be influenced by Tsuandes perfect ninjustu stat and top tier chakra control). So this whole Sasuke is vastly superior thing is unsupported as his raw speed doesn't mean much. His CS2 boosts are paralled by Tsuandes Byakago boost( look at the boost it gave sakura in speed and strength). Did you also forget that Kakashi( 4.5 speed) + Sharingan was matched by hidans(3.5 speed). Simply because Hidan was better at taijjstu, enough so that Kakashi was forced to parry his attacks. Ya wanna know what happens if Sasuke parries Tsuandes attacks? .


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 27, 2015)

Madara can hop around on one hand and be better than Sasuke at everything Uchiha.  I don't have a problem with that.

I'm not sure how Madara's Susano blades stack against Sasuke's.  Both bounce off Ei, but Susano blade didn't chop Tsunade in half, even if they chop into her.  He has a lightsaber, so I always figured it should chop Tsunade in half.  But Sasuke's sword got caught in Madara because he was lolhealing. 

Was he not using raiton flow? Why would he not be using raiton flow.  Sasuke, come on...

Katons are useless.

I give up.

btw Eiso at 10 meters is probably dangerous.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 27, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> @Ryukaki
> Umm yeah hell no. Tsuandes speed stat comes from the pain arc and not even the war arc, it can hardly even be used. The speed stay also only includes raw speed and doesn't consider the flicker( which would be influenced by Tsuandes perfect ninjustu stat and top tier chakra control). So this whole Sasuke is vastly superior thing is unsupported as his raw speed doesn't mean much. His CS2 boosts are paralled by Tsuandes Byakago boost( look at the boost it gave sakura in speed and strength).


False, Tsunade's stats didn't change over the time skip and the boost you speak of wasn't elaborated in her speech about her ability. It's not unsupported, base Sasuke is clearly superior to her, this is databook fact (4.5 vs 3.5). 



Likes boss said:


> Did you also forget that Kakashi( 4.5 speed) + Sharingan was matched by hidans(3.5 speed). Simply because Hidan was better at taijjstu, enough so that Kakashi was forced to parry his attacks.


 

Did you realize that Kakashi was fighting more than one person?



Like boss said:


> Ya wanna know what happens if Sasuke parries Tsuandes attacks? .


Sasuke uses Oral Rebirth, just like Orochimaru used against Tsunade.


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## Veracity (Jun 27, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> False, Tsunade's stats didn't change over the time skip and the boost you speak of wasn't elaborated in her speech about her ability. It's not unsupported, base Sasuke is clearly superior to her, this is databook fact (4.5 vs 3.5).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Which time skip do you speak of and why would her stats not increase with training? I've ready explained how the speed stat doesn't include flicker, so I don't know why you just jumped right over that ? 

You do realize that there were times when Kakashi was only fighting Hidan for specific cqc exchanges, and during those exchanges Kakashi wasn't even close to overwhelming him. But like you just said here, wouldn't Hidan not be able to hit him at all considering the speed difference? 

Oro never used oral rebirth against Tsuande, and it takes a great deal of chakra to use regardless. I'm also not sure how great oral rebirth would be if Sasukes entire mid-section is obliterated. IIRC it's never been used against something damaging, but if you bring some feats then I easily could be swayed.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 27, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Which time skip do you speak of and why would her stats not increase with training? I've ready explained how the speed stat doesn't include flicker, so I don't know why you just jumped right over that ?


Do you have any solid proof that she trains? Other characters it is believable (e.g. Sasuke, Kakashi, Naruto) because we have active proof and they were seen training. 


Likes boss said:


> You do realize that there were times when Kakashi was only fighting Hidan for specific cqc exchanges, and during those exchanges Kakashi wasn't even close to overwhelming him. But like you just said here, wouldn't Hidan not be able to hit him at all considering the speed difference?


It's really hard to see what you are talking about when you have 0 proof. I'm not going to continue this debate if you aren't going to provide scans to back up your statements.


Likes boss said:


> Oro never used oral rebirth against Tsuande, and it takes a great deal of chakra to use regardless. I'm also not sure how great oral rebirth would be if Sasukes entire mid-section is obliterated. IIRC it's never been used against something damaging, but if you bring some feats then I easily could be swayed.


I meant Sasuke against Itachi, which is oddly the scan I posted, so you have your feat. Sasuke was caught on fire and then use Oral Rebirth.


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## N120 (Jun 27, 2015)

Yeah mask something clear cut as a Sasuke win with obscurities like " eh, queen solo summons acid machine" or "bykkugo tanks everything". Neither actually add to the debate as to who is superior.

Katsuyu isn't an combat orientated summon, she has only been used in actual combat once in the dead lock, the rest of the time she was summoned specifically for backup and healing.

Katsuyu is purely a defensive orientated summon, unlike the snake/toads.

CS Sasuke has something tsunade doesn't, high level combat skill. He is superior to her at cqc/mid/long range combat, his tai/gen/ninjutsu is superior all round.


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## Veracity (Jun 27, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Do you have any solid proof that she trains? Other characters it is believable (e.g. Sasuke, Kakashi, Naruto) because we have active proof and they were seen training.
> 
> It's really hard to see what you are talking about when you have 0 proof. I'm not going to continue this debate if you aren't going to provide scans to back up your statements.
> 
> I meant Sasuke against Itachi, which is oddly the scan I posted, so you have your feat. Sasuke was caught on fire and then use Oral Rebirth.



Because she was rusty, and addicted to alcohol/gambling. She had to get in some shape to become hokage, and she also trained sakura. Her feats also indicate that she whipped herself into shape as well as the fact that she developed Byakago.

Like here when he was pressuring Kakashi before kakuzu fired off an elemental attack:
Orochimaru went after Sasuke because he couldn't handle Itachi. He went after Sasuke before he lost his arms

Or here when it was just Kakashi vs Hidan:
Orochimaru went after Sasuke because he couldn't handle Itachi. He went after Sasuke before he lost his arms

And in case you didn't know, taijustu skirmishs tend to not last a long ass time, so those panels are more than enough evidence that hidan could easily keep up with Kakashi.

I didn't even realize it was a Scan at first, but I don't even know how that scan correlates to anything here. Amaterasu deals slow damage.. Hence the reason Sasuke was able to oral rebirth to begin with. He activated the Justu before the flames spread, and the flames burned the renaming skin/flesh left over. Tsuandes punch does instant damage and would obliterate Sasuke before he's able to activate the justu, similar to this:
 Orochimaru went after Sasuke because he couldn't handle Itachi. He went after Sasuke before he lost his arms
Orochimaru went after Sasuke because he couldn't handle Itachi. He went after Sasuke before he lost his arms


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## Puppetry (Jun 27, 2015)

The evidence suggests that Tsunade didn't improve from the Pain Arc (around the cutoff for the third databook) to the War Arc. Tsunade was noted to be training with Sakura, but that was during the time skip, where Sakura made enormous strides from her days as a named fodder. However, her progress flatlined until Byakugō no In was completed during the War Arc.

Not that Sakura was sedentary, but I would argue her abilities weren't _significantly_ sharpened from beginning of Part II to the War Arc. Her pitiful display against Karui proved that much. Similarly, while I'm sure Tsunade definitely recaptured some of her faded power during those timeskip sparring sessions, I don't think she improved much outside of that.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Maybe it's because she never opted to ever using it against Madara.



And that says, what exactly?

That's an example of Tsunade (_correctly_) judging that she'd be better off relying on her titanic strength and regeneration than her slugs once she went on the offensive against Madara and his Susano'o.

That does not necessarily mean she will refrain from using the slug against someone else, which is why we saw her use it offensively against Orochimaru.

There are advantages Katsuyu can afford Tsunade against other opponents that the slug would not afford her against Madara or a team of 5 Madaras, and there is no great risk that gives the summoning Jutsu a last resort nature.

If Tsunade could need her slugs, be given the appropriate amount of knowledge, not be hemophobic, and still refrain from using them she wouldn't be called the Slug Princess.



> I'm not convinced that Katsuyu is as strong as *you* say she is.



Where in this thread did _I_ ever say anything about how strong Katsuyu is?

Just how strong did I say she was?


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 27, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Because she was rusty, and addicted to alcohol/gambling. She had to get in some shape to become hokage, and she also trained sakura. Her feats also indicate that she whipped herself into shape as well as the fact that she developed Byakago.


Training Sakura is not the same as training herself. Jiraiya trained Naruto but he didn't get any stronger, in fact he lived up to his reputation in the manga and databook.


Likes boss said:


> Like here when he was pressuring Kakashi before kakuzu fired off an elemental attack:
> Orochimaru went after Sasuke because he couldn't handle Itachi. He went after Sasuke before he lost his arms
> 
> Or here when it was just Kakashi vs Hidan:
> ...


Both of those scenarios Kakashi is on the defensive or worrying about an alternative opponent. So with that in mind, in the first scan he's also worrying about mask behind Hidan and in the second link, Kakashi is focused on the mask and Hidan attacked from behind. Kakashi was already on the defensive. If the match at any point becomes 2 on 1 for Sasuke then obviously Sasuke would lose ground. But this is only a 1 vs. 1 match up, so that's inconsequential.



Likes boss said:


> I didn't even realize it was a Scan at first, but I don't even know how that scan correlates to anything here. Amaterasu deals slow damage.. Hence the reason Sasuke was able to oral rebirth to begin with. He activated the Justu before the flames spread, and the flames burned the renaming skin/flesh left over. Tsuandes punch does instant damage and would obliterate Sasuke before he's able to activate the justu, similar to this:
> Orochimaru went after Sasuke because he couldn't handle Itachi. He went after Sasuke before he lost his arms
> Orochimaru went after Sasuke because he couldn't handle Itachi. He went after Sasuke before he lost his arms


Amaterasu was exceptionally instant, the moment Itachi focus on it, the technique worked and Sasuke was brought down. Given Tsunade's attacking speed, Sasuke can prep the technique with enough time to spare. 

He was able to avoid the Raikage A and Killer Bee, so he'll definitely be able to avoid her punches. Both of those characters are ≥ Tsunade in terms of taijutsu and > her in speed.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 27, 2015)

Sasuke wins because he is better at direct combat than Tsunade is.


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## Veracity (Jun 27, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Training Sakura is not the same as training herself. Jiraiya trained Naruto but he didn't get any stronger, in fact he lived up to his reputation in the manga and databook.
> 
> Both of those scenarios Kakashi is on the defensive or worrying about an alternative opponent. So with that in mind, in the first scan he's also worrying about mask behind Hidan and in the second link, Kakashi is focused on the mask and Hidan attacked from behind. Kakashi was already on the defensive. If the match at any point becomes 2 on 1 for Sasuke then obviously Sasuke would lose ground. But this is only a 1 vs. 1 match up, so that's inconsequential.
> 
> ...



That's a terrible example as Jirayia was already at his peak level unlike Tsuande. Tsuande didn't train for more than 20 years while also being a heavy alcoholic. Dropping the toxins she was consuming and even doing training limited training would drastically increase her ability. That's logic. 

Um no? In the first scan Kakashi and Hidan are battling on the tree branch before Kakashi notices the mask come from behind as it fires futton, but before that, he was fighting on equal grounds with Hidan whether you want to accept it or not. 

The second scan even more so. Ino-Shika-Cho and Kakashi all evaded the katon tech, then Hidan jumps from plain sight an outright stalemates Kakashi for multiple clashes. Even when the slide away, you can see Kakuzu off in the distance not even worrying about the fight. That skirmish was between simply Kakashi and Hidan, and they both stalemated despite the speed gap.

The damage Amateasu deals isn't instant. It doesn't hit its opponent and instantly turn them into ashes. It hits the body, spreads, and deals damage like a normal fire would do: Killer Bee
As soon as Sasukes wing was hit, and the flames started to spread, he easily had time to prep the oral rebirth. It's not like Itachi was attempting to kill Sasuke anyway, so it wasn't his best Amaterasu.

Sasukes not prepping oral rebirth before he gets punched. Not only has that never been done, but Tsuande strikes at the speed of Ay. Oral rebirth isn't instantly activated especially in the scenario that Tsuande gets off a punch in a taijustu exchange.

MS Sasuke avoided a non flicker attack from V1 Ay yes. The moment Ay activated V2, Sasuke wasn't even able to register his movements. Sasuke was also able to " parry attacks " from a casual killer bee before getting killed 2 times in the battle. He cannot Parry anything from Tsuande. That's not enough to assume he doesn't get touched at all by Tsuande. He may be able to avoid her attacks, but he's going to eventually get hit or be forced to parry. Ay is also not better than Tsunade in CQC.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 28, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> That's a terrible example as Jirayia was already at his peak level unlike Tsuande. Tsuande didn't train for more than 20 years while also being a heavy alcoholic. Dropping the toxins she was consuming and even doing training limited training would drastically increase her ability. That's logic.


The thing is the 3rd Databook encompassed everything through the Itachi/Sasuke Arc. Tsunade's was back in shape over the time-skip already by the point the databook came out. Refuting the statistics at this point is nonsense because they account for "in-shape" ability (e.g. Speed = 3.5, Genjutsu = 3.5).



Likes boss said:


> Um no? In the first scan Kakashi and Hidan are battling on the tree branch before Kakashi notices the mask come from behind as it fires futton, but before that, he was fighting on equal grounds with Hidan whether you want to accept it or not.
> 
> The second scan even more so. Ino-Shika-Cho and Kakashi all evaded the katon tech, then Hidan jumps from plain sight an outright stalemates Kakashi for multiple clashes. Even when the slide away, you can see Kakuzu off in the distance not even worrying about the fight. That skirmish was between simply Kakashi and Hidan, and they both stalemated despite the speed gap.


The point is that Kakashi just escaped from Kakuzu's attack, why wouldn't he have his attention focused on him or any of his other hearts. For the purposes of the fight, Kakashi was engaged with Kakuzu at first and then Hidan surprised him from the back. He was actually fighting 2 vs. 1 battle. That heavily impedes one speed because the amount of opponents Kakashi has to keep track of has increased significantly.

For the purposes of this fight, Sasuke only needs to worry about one ninja, not two. That makes his job easier and with his speed he wouldn't be distracted enough to slow down.



Likes boss said:


> The damage Amateasu deals isn't instant. It doesn't hit its opponent and instantly turn them into ashes. It hits the body, spreads, and deals damage like a normal fire would do: Link removed
> As soon as Sasukes wing was hit, and the flames started to spread, he easily had time to prep the oral rebirth. It's not like Itachi was attempting to kill Sasuke anyway, so it wasn't his best Amaterasu.


The point I'm making a dojutsu is much faster acting than one her slow punches and yes the damage is instant, just look at what happened to Killer Bee, the moment he was caught by the flames he as pain.



Likes boss said:


> Sasukes not prepping oral rebirth before he gets punched. Not only has that never been done, but *Tsuande strikes at the speed of Ay.* Oral rebirth isn't instantly activated especially in the scenario that Tsuande gets off a punch in a taijustu exchange.


First of all, Sasuke timed the technique ("Oral Rebirth") to be used right when Itachi used Amaterasu. The entire thing is covered here, here and here in that order.

*?*Also, the part in bold is crap, Tsunade does not punch at the speed the Raikage. Tsunade's punch at best are as fast as Pre-SM Naruto (Tier 3.5). 



Likes boss said:


> MS Sasuke avoided a non flicker attack from V1 Ay yes. The moment Ay activated V2, Sasuke wasn't even able to register his movements. Sasuke was also able to " parry attacks " from a casual killer bee before getting killed 2 times in the battle. He cannot Parry anything from Tsuande. That's not enough to assume he doesn't get touched at all by Tsuande. He may be able to avoid her attacks, but he's going to eventually get hit or be forced to parry. *Ay is also not better than Tsunade in CQC.*


The point is that Sasuke avoided the Raikage's speed, there isn't anything Tsunade can do that will hit him. He won't need to parry her attacks because they aren't going to hit him and unlike other opponents, he can see the built up chakra in her arms and legs (much in the same manner as Pain was able to with his dojutsu). 

*?*The stuff in bold is unsubstantiated, the Raikage has been shown to be a dominant taijutsu fighter and he has had better taijutsu feats than Tsunade does so far due to the fact that he combines them with ninjutsu. Raikage actually throws moves in here there like a wrestler (e.g. Elbows, Liger Bomb, Chops). The only thing that Tsunade has over him is actual strength.


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## trance (Jun 28, 2015)

Sasuke blitzes and cuts her head off.


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## Ghost (Jun 28, 2015)

Sasuke is faster, has precog and a 5+ meter long Lightning Sword that can cut Tsunade into pieces without effort while paralyzing her, yep, Tsunade totally wins this.


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## Amol (Jun 28, 2015)

Tsunade breaks his skull .
You don't oral rebirth when you are dead. 
Hebi Sasuke is incredibly wanked.


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## StickaStick (Jun 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You _really_ don't see a problem with thinking. _Really?_
> 
> You're new here, but an old forum adage used to be "Naruto is not DBZ."
> 
> i.e. A > B > C does not work as unique jutsu that play major roles.


You really should read the rest of the text, Strat, Not doing so makes you look very foolish indeed.



StickaStick said:


> More appropriately it would be since Sasuke =/= Five of Madara's legged Susanoo clones and since Five of Madara's legged Susanoo clones were not able to kill Tsunade, *then rationally given the lack of any substantial favorable matchups benefits in Sasuke's favor as opposed to the legged Susanoo clones* Sasuke will not be able to do something said legged Susanoo clones weren't able to do--which is defeat Tsunade.


Meaning I took these other things, such as jutsu favorable in the matchup, into consideration 



Ryuzaki said:


> I was going to respond to your post but then I realized, if you really believe that given Itachi's arsenal...Do I even need to mention anything outside of Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susano'o (w/Totsuka and Yata)?


Why did you bold the entire thing except the qualifier where I specifically referred to an Itachi who was "doggin' it"? Meaning, an Itachi who held back (Susanoo in particular) and was limited by his sickness. Because such an Itachi is below Tsunade.



> According to the databook, Sasuke is a full tier (4.5) faster than Tsunade (3.5) and on top of that he has the sharingan.  Point being, Tsunade is rated at the same speed tier as Naruto (3.5), before SM training. At his full speed, Sasuke is far superior to Tsunade, to the point where it's ridiculous to assume that she's going to hit him.


I might have agreed with you until I read Turrin's point about speed, which I found very convincing. Basically, unless the speed gap is massive then it's entirely possible for characters with even a 1.0 difference, as is the case here, to clash on even ground and at the fundamental be able to react to each other's attacks defensively which is considerably easier then landing a hit on the offensive end. If you would like a pertinent example, see Kakashi vs Hidan wherein Kakashi held a whole point advantage in speed and possesses his own MS but not only could not overwhelm Hidan, but fought him almost to a standstill.

The idea that Tsunade won't be overwhelmed by Sasuke's speed is furthermore supported by the idea that she was able to fight and survive against five of Madara's legged Susanoo clones which entails being able to effectively recognize and react to numerous threats attacking from different angles and blindsides. I seriously doubt Hebi Sasuke could replicate the kind of in-battle pressure that Tsunade faced there. Note that I'm not suggesting Sasuke's speed won't favor him, as it likely would, but that given what we know (mainly the points I've made here) chances are Sasuke will not be winning this with mere blitz and constant pressure, but will instead have to come up with some strategic maneuver that affords him an open opportunity, which he may or may not be able to pull off. 



> Despite the fact that she can probably tank some of his jutsu, she'd still be suffering the after effects of the jutsu (e.g. Chidori Nagashi). Then there are techniques to which Sasuke can use raiton flow to increase it's slicing ability. It was already demonstrated that Tsunade's durability is rather weak against the normal Kusanagi. A raiton-enhanced Kusanagi, would effectively lop off her limbs and she can't regrow those.


Yes, if Sasuke were able to lop off her limbs that would be a problem, which is why Tsunade will have to be diligent that Sasuke doesn't get any clean slashes off at her. However, on the other hand, Sasuke would have to weary of piercing Tsunade in a non-lethal spot and finding a moment's pause where his sword his stuck there giving Tsunade an open opportunity to take a swing at Sasuke. 



> That's all assuming Sasuke won't use genjutsu, which if he does resort to, it will likely lead to a full blown opening for him to exploit. Sasuke was able to overpower Orochimaru, who is rated as an expert in the field. Tsunade cannot hope to compete with that.


Tsunade has full knowledge here, so she will be well aware of this Sasuke's genjutsu process, which frankly when the opposition has knowledge is nothing to write home about. Hebi Sasuke's genjutsu feats consist of mainly lulling his opposition into a state of false security, as he did with Deidara. However, Deidara also lacked knowledge on this and, along with because of his arrogance, was easily fooled. To reiterate the point: even again when he obtained his MS his genjutsu against Danzo consisted of a well-timed deception; something that would be much more difficult to pull off in a full knowledge scenario.



> Sasuke was able to lay the ground work himself and execute his jutsu after engaging Itachi's Amaterasu. He created the opening himself and Katsuyu would likely be preoccupied with Manda. Tsunade's lack of durability and her slow speed, will be the reason why she loses to this jutsu. Sasuke will be forced to use this upon realizing how his regular katosn and chidori aren't going to cut it.


Sasuke's aided his own effort with his Gōryūka no Jutsu but also relied on the heat provided by the never-ending flames of Itachi's Ama which leads me to believe that without it he would not have been able to meet the requisites for creating the heat build-up in the sky necessary to use Kirin.  



> Manda will be more than enough to deal with it, he's actually shown shedding his abilities and can engage Katsuyu (whether large or small) from underground.


To your point about Katsuyu, could you please explain how you believe Manda is dealing with something the size and overall girth as this:


And before you bring it up, yes I do believe she not only can summon this amount by herself (with a fully stocked seal, ofc) but probably more given the vast amount of chakra she expanded in the war effort such as, among other things, against Madara when she used it to heal four other individuals (her Gokage brethren), used it on herself to provide a physical and regen boost, and used it to summon Katsuyu to further heal her teammates after Madara had already left them for dead. 

So, with a Katsuyu this massive who could split into multiple sized boss summons if she so chooses, how is Manda possibly going to neutralize all of her/them, especially given again that Katsuyu can split herself if she's being constricted? If Manda is able to neutralize one Katsuyu sized boss summons fine, but that means there will be others around the battle field spitting acid in Sasuke's and Manda's directions and, something I hadn't mentioned before, but also acting as a form of shared vision for Tsunade if she decides to have a mini-Katsuyu sit on her shoulder alerting her to any possible blindside trickery on Sasuke's part.



> As for flying, I wasn't referring to his Hawk summon, I was referring to this.


Oh, my bad. Although in that case I would say if Sasuke takes flight it would only make evading Katsuyu's acid more difficult since Sasuke's won't nearly as fast evading it in flight as he would be on foot.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 28, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> And that says, what exactly?
> 
> That's an example of Tsunade (_correctly_) judging that she'd be better off relying on her titanic strength and regeneration than her slugs once she went on the offensive against Madara and his Susano'o.



 It's not. Her judgement was clearly horrible as Ei questioned the approach she took during the fight and it showed as she began coughing up blood despite her regenerative properties. She honestly would've been better off having defensive support from Katsuyu or better yet, used Acid to potentially box them in, but considering that has never happened in the manga, it's clear that Katsuyu's acid isn't very effective, or Katsuyu just isn't an effective/ skilled aggressor in general.



> That does not necessarily mean she will refrain from using the slug against someone else, which is why we saw her use it offensively against Orochimaru.



 That was only one instance in time and even then, it was shown that Manda easily subdued Katsuyu the moment he dodged her Acid with relative ease. Once Hebi Sasuke closes in on Katsuyu, there's nothing much that Katsuyu can do. 



> There are advantages Katsuyu can afford Tsunade against other opponents that the slug would not afford her against Madara or a team of 5 Madaras, and there is no great risk that gives the summoning Jutsu a last resort nature.



 Honestly, I can't see any. Katsuyu would've provided amazing support for both Mei and Gaara who were getting pummelled yet none of that was provided which would indicate that it's essentially useless offensively unless you're going to suggest that the Acid would have contributed nothing at all to the fight.



> If Tsunade could need her slugs, be given the appropriate amount of knowledge, not be hemophobic, and still refrain from using them she wouldn't be called the Slug Princess.



 Great, but she only summons Katsuyu to be used defensively or for amazing support. Nothing Katsuyu has done is even remotely impressive offensively. If you want to prove that Katsuyu is amazing and can bypass Hebi Sasuke's Speed + Summons, your'e going to have to prove that Katsuyu is impressive offensively because if not, Hebi Sasuke can just as easily evade Katsuyu's Acid with Manda and use his Sharingan to aid in striking at the proper moment.





> Where in this thread did _I_ ever say anything about how strong Katsuyu is?
> 
> Just how strong did I say she was?



 I'm sorry, I thought you were on that Katsuyu Wank Train. 

 Just forget about it, I'm very sorry.


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## Ghost (Jun 28, 2015)

Amol said:


> Tsunade breaks his skull .
> You don't oral rebirth when you are dead.
> Hebi Sasuke is incredibly wanked.



Feel free to explain how Tsunade even lands a hit when Sasuke is faster, has Sharingan precog and a far bigger range.


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## Deer Lord (Jun 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I'm sorry, I thought you were on that Katsuyu Wank Train.


The only wank train here is about sasuke.


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## StickaStick (Jun 28, 2015)

Katsuyu is actually pretty underrated imo when utilized to her fullest potential.

Consider that she basically functions as:


*Shared Vision*, since she can split into multiple Katsuyu and spread around the battle field and alert Tsunade (via a mini-Katsuyu on her shoulder) as to anything happening outside of her LoS
*A decent offensive threat*, since she can spit acid that has a somewhat unpredictable hit-box making it somewhat tricky to evade. Furthermore consider this when there are mutiple Katsuyu around the battle field all doing the same thing.
*A healing vehicle*, meaning if Tsunade (or anyone who can summon Katsuyu) is seriously wounded they can be taken into Katsuyu to be recovered and the opposition will be hard pressed to locate and continue an assualt on someone who is being encapsulated in a being with such size


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 28, 2015)

Addressing speed: Sasuke has a 4.5, while Tsunade has a 3.5. That is a single point gap, which while notable, is not nearly enough to decisively win the match for Sasuke.

Orochimaru has a 4.5 in speed, but Tsunade _reacted to his attacks_ just fine, and even _blitzed him_. Before anyone suggests that Orochimaru's illness impeded his physical movement speed, I'd like to point out that unless proven otherwise, it was only his arms and chakra levels that were especially affected.

Part I Kabuto had a 3.5 in speed, and that speed increased after he consumed a soldier pill. Yet, as with Orochimaru, Tsunade _kept pace with him up_ until she threw herself into his Chakra Scalpels.

By Part II, Tsunade _attacks in tandem_ with _Base Ei_, who White Zetsu regarded as _an astoundingly swift fighter_. While Zetsu was not especially fast, he could still recognise fast opponents in the middle of battle, like the very same _Hebi Sasuke_ that we're discussing in this match-up. Base Ei's movement speed can't have been much slower, if at all slower, than Hebi Sasuke's. 

Then we come to the issue of _taijutsu skill_. Tsunade has a full 5/5, while Sasuke has a 3.5/5. That is quite significant, or at least more significant than Sasuke's 1 point ahead of the Godaime in speed. 

Higher taijutsu skill often allows opponents to match a faster opponent, or even overcome them in close quarters. This has been the case multiple times in the manga, especially when it comes to Sasuke. Danzou managed to _grab him_ and land his _Jigō Jubaku no In_ using superior combat intuition, despite being a slower combatant and not possessing sharingan prediction. Sick Itachi's movements were no faster than Sasuke's either, but superior taijutsu knowledge allows him to _outmanoeuvre his little brother in close combat_ (Itachi had a 4.5/5 in taijutsu, so he was a point ahead). These examples are not exhaustive, but the point stands regardless.

Furthermore, we must consider that Sasuke will obviously not be moving at his _top speed_ each and every time he goes to throw an attack. This is why slower opponents who possess an appropriate level of taijutsu skill are sometimes _able to match faster opponents in battle_ (*NB:* Both Hidan and Kakashi have a 4.5/5 in taijutsu, but Hidan only has a 3.5 in speed, while Kakashi possesses a 4.5). 

Finally, even when Hebi Sasuke used the Shunshin no Jutsu to attack Deidara, he still was _unable to blitz_. Deidara has a 4.5 in speed and a 3.5 in taijutsu like Sasuke does, and he was able to evade no less (albeit, it was very close). Tsunade trades a point of speed for a point and a half of taijutsu skill, so she more than averages Deidara in these two stats collectively. I should add, the Shunshin no Jutsu grants Sasuke speed _greater_ than his regular movement speed (exceeding that 4.5 he has in the databook), further mitigating the chances of Sasuke ever blitzing Tsunade in regular taijutsu exchanges.

________________________​
In the end, yes, Sasuke does have sharingan precognition, so unless he attacks Tsunade while he's airborne and unable to move away from her, its unlikely that she will be able to land any direct hits. However, Sasuke will have a very hard time landing hits on her too, because he lacks the skill and speed necessary to thwart her power in close quarters. The hits he does land will be minor, and Tsunade's durability, resilience and then Byakugō no Jutsu mitigate the damage they inflict entirely.

Sasuke's only real chance of killing her is by paralysing her, and since she's been both thrown across a country inside a lightning bolt and had her spine severed in two, without being paralysed, I do not see Sasuke's raiton managing this. If Tsunade is capable of as much _ground devastation_ as _Hashirama suggested_, then its likely that Tsunade will sooner or later blast him into the air and kill him while he's airborne.​​


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 28, 2015)

Tsunade is better than him


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## FlamingRain (Jun 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It's not.



It is.

Susano'o can tank acid, using a Katsuyu it comes into physical contact with for a Shosen overdose would not affect it because it has no circulatory system to overload in the first place, etc. The clones can afford to keep their attention on Tsunade as they would anyway, so Tsunade's stamina is better spent trying to smash through to them herself than it is used on calling forth Katsuyu.

Most people (_Sasuke included_) on the other hand would need to avoid being splashed by acid, they would also need to avoid tripping over one of the clones and/or being grabbed because that could potentially lead to either their circulatory system being overloaded or another clone spraying them if close enough. Those things landing all over the place means most cannot afford to focus primarily on Tsunade over Katsuyu because either could kill them if they find the opening, and that's a lot to ask somebody to keep track of given just how many slugs there can be to act as distractions, physical barriers, etc.

Katsuyu is one of the best things you can get your hands on for employing divide and conquer strategies. A team of Susano'o just so happens to be a power that she wouldn't help out that much against.

It also happens to be a power Hebi Sasuke doesn't have...



> That was only one instance in time.



Tsunade has only been in _two_ on-panel fights post-hemophobia, so trying to hide behind the excuse that she only did it once doesn't get you very far.

Oh, and _on-panel_? That was also the only time Jiraiya summoned Gamabunta as well as the only time Orochimaru summoned Manda. Does that mean Jiraiya and Orochimaru will never summon Gamabunta and Manda against anyone else because they're apparently useless? Of course not, and similarly, it doesn't mean that Tsunade won't summon Katsuyu in other situations.

Manda never actually subdued, Katsuyu, though. And if Sasuke closes in on Katsuyu just what is he supposed to do then? His attacks can't kill it.



> Katsuyu would've provided amazing support for both Mei and Gaara.



The Madaras tried slicing/piercing them, though. Katsuyu can be split, it just won't kill her. If human sized slugs were to have absorbed Gaara and Mei the swords could have just pierced Katsuyu and killed the Kages anyway.

Larger Katsuyu might have been able to protect them from swords slashes for a while simply because she's so large the swords are most likely to either not reach them or just plain miss them, but they wouldn't be able to retaliate against the clones from inside Katsuyu and they'd never exhaust the clones due to the fact that they're being manifested by an Edo Tensei.

That's without even considering that the clones might just decide to use Preta Path on them.



> Great, but she only summons Katsuyu to be used defensively or for amazing support.



Tsunade can use Katsuyu to defend and support herself too, so it sounds like you're agreeing that Tsunade will summon Katsuyu if she's just going to get overwhelmed otherwise?


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## Icegaze (Jun 29, 2015)

madara clones with knowledge and susanoo and susanoo blades couldnt cut tsunade head off
she slaps sasuke to death


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## Turrin (Jun 29, 2015)

Hebi-Sasuke can win, but his avenue to victory is not at all a blitz and with these conditions it's not likely. If Sasuke tries to take Tsunade on in CQC it's going to be Hidan vs Kakashi all over again:




But in every single one of those circled clashes Sasuke gets pasted by Tsunade's strength overwhelming his guard.

However since the battle is full knowledge I do not think Sasuke will choose such a reckless strategy, instead he'll probably attempt to use everything in his power to distance himself from Tsunade and distract her long enough to pull out Kirin, however that's easier said than done with the match's starting distance and having to escape around Katsuya. And even if he does pull it out like Tsunade can still defend herself with Katsuya and Byakugo, since she survived CST that way.

So I don't really see many avenues for Sasuke to win the fight. If he goes in close his chances of dying are a-lot higher than Tsunade's w/ her Byakugo. And if he stays at long he'll eventually get overwhelmed by Katsuya leaving him open to Tsunade. His triumph also gets defended considering the knowledge here


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 29, 2015)

StickaStick said:
			
		

> Why did you bold the entire thing except the qualifier where I specifically referred to an Itachi who was "doggin' it"? Meaning, an Itachi who held back (Susanoo in particular) and was limited by his sickness. Because such an Itachi is below Tsunade.


That's my mistake, I read it as *dodgin'* it.



			
				StickaStick said:
			
		

> I might have agreed with you until I read Turrin's point about speed, which I found very convincing. Basically, unless the speed gap is massive then it's entirely possible for characters with even a 1.0 difference, as is the case here, to clash on even ground and at the fundamental be able to react to each other's attacks defensively which is considerably easier then landing a hit on the offensive end. If you would like a pertinent example, see Kakashi vs Hidan wherein Kakashi held a whole point advantage in speed and possesses his own MS but not only could not overwhelm Hidan, but fought him almost to a standstill.
> 
> The idea that Tsunade won't be overwhelmed by Sasuke's speed is furthermore supported by the idea that she was able to fight and survive against five of Madara's legged Susanoo clones which entails being able to effectively recognize and react to numerous threats attacking from different angles and blindsides. I seriously doubt Hebi Sasuke could replicate the kind of in-battle pressure that Tsunade faced there. Note that I'm not suggesting Sasuke's speed won't favor him, as it likely would, but that given what we know (mainly the points I've made here) chances are Sasuke will not be winning this with mere blitz and constant pressure, but will instead have to come up with some strategic maneuver that affords him an open opportunity, which he may or may not be able to pull off.


The only issue I have with the Hidan vs. Kakashi argument is that Kakashi was preoccupied with two different shinobi. His attention span was divided and it also did not help that they tag-teamed him on top of which he also had to worry about guarding Team 10. Sasuke isn't going to have that problem because he knows he'll be going against Tsunade alone, not another back up shinobi. 

Take a look at this, Kakashi is actually breaking away from Hidan, but the wind mask shows up and attacks him. He didn't expect that and he definitely didn't think it would attack with Hidan in the way.

Another example, is this and this. In this scenario he had just evaded Katon: Zukoku a long range fire element attack and he was surprised by Hidan from the back. Not only did Kakashi parry his attacks, Kakashi was on the defensive, he was not the one attacking. It would have been different if Kakashi was attacking (e.g. similar to what Asuma did to Hidan).

The biggest problem here is Kakashi has to actually worry about multiple opponents and when that is the case, speed advantages can be overcome (unless the gap is so blatantly enormous). For instance, at the start of their fight, Kakashi did this to Kakuzu, to the point where Kakuzu didn't even sense him. Later on, in the same match this happened. Kakashi is a great deal faster than Kakuzu and his masks, however, defending and covering for Ino/Chouji cost him the match. If it was a 1 vs. 1 match up, it would have been different.

The true difference between the tiers is noted when Sasuke blitzes Naruto, in their first reunion after the time-skip, both of whom represent the respective speeds in question here.


			
				StickaStick said:
			
		

> Yes, if Sasuke were able to lop off her limbs that would be a problem, which is why Tsunade will have to be diligent that Sasuke doesn't get any clean slashes off at her. However, on the other hand, Sasuke would have to weary of piercing Tsunade in a non-lethal spot and finding a moment's pause where his sword his stuck there giving Tsunade an open opportunity to take a swing at Sasuke.


Fair enough, but Sasuke would still have the precognition upper-hand, he did avoid the Raikage and 3T Killer Bee, after all.



			
				StickaStick said:
			
		

> Tsunade has full knowledge here, so she will be well aware of this Sasuke's genjutsu process, which frankly when the opposition has knowledge is nothing to write home about. Hebi Sasuke's genjutsu feats consist of mainly lulling his opposition into a state of false security, as he did with Deidara. However, Deidara also lacked knowledge on this and, along with because of his arrogance, was easily fooled. To reiterate the point: even again when he obtained his MS his genjutsu against Danzo consisted of a well-timed deception; something that would be much more difficult to pull off in a full knowledge scenario.


She might have full knowledge but she's a brawler, she's going to have to make eye contact at some point, she hasn't been shown to have Gai's feet training. Furthermore, Sasuke caught someone who trained to negate it's illusionary prowess and while Tsunade may or may not have had this training, she still is ranked in the same tier as him. it's going to be difficult for her to keep a combative style while attempting to avoid his gaze and magically bridge the sharingan + speed gap in order to hit him.

She's got an uphill battle man and she's not going to do it.



			
				StickaStick said:
			
		

> Sasuke's aided his own effort with his Gōryūka no Jutsu but also relied on the heat provided by the never-ending flames of Itachi's Ama which leads me to believe that without it he would not have been able to meet the requisites for creating the heat build-up in the sky necessary to use Kirin


He had to have train with the Kirin technique without Amaterasu, it was more a convenience but hardly the catalyst.



			
				StickaStick said:
			
		

> And before you bring it up, yes I do believe she not only can summon this amount by herself (with a fully stocked seal, ofc) but probably more given the vast amount of chakra she expanded in the war effort such as, among other things, against Madara when she used it to heal four other individuals (her Gokage brethren), used it on herself to provide a physical and regen boost, and used it to summon Katsuyu to further heal her teammates after Madara had already left them for dead.
> 
> So, with a Katsuyu this massive who could split into multiple sized boss summons if she so chooses, how is Manda possibly going to neutralize all of her/them, especially given again that Katsuyu can split herself if she's being constricted? If Manda is able to neutralize one Katsuyu sized boss summons fine, but that means there will be others around the battle field spitting acid in Sasuke's and Manda's directions and, something I hadn't mentioned before, but also acting as a form of shared vision for Tsunade if she decides to have a mini-Katsuyu sit on her shoulder alerting her to any possible blindside trickery on Sasuke's part.


The thing is, if Katsuyu was such an advantage for her why not use it while she was fighting the 5 different Susano'o against Madara. If it can do everything that people are saying here, she should have had it equipped to her while engaging Madara and have a larger version on stand by. Her acid is powerful, I'll give it that, but Manda given his dominance in jutsu and speed would be more than enough to preoccupy her. 



			
				StickaStick said:
			
		

> Oh, my bad. Although in that case I would say if Sasuke takes flight it would only make evading Katsuyu's acid more difficult since Sasuke's won't nearly as fast evading it in flight as he would be on foot.


Again, don't really see Sasuke getting hit with it, he avoided Killer Bee (3T) in mid air, without wings but even with them, Sasuke was able to close the gap on Deidara in mid air.


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## StarlightAshley (Jun 30, 2015)

Defiantly Tsunade, Sasuke was only able to defeat Orochimaru because he was literally an inch away from death. He was in no way Sannin level. Although he certainly was impressive in growth compared to the other members of team 7, at this point he was still far from being a match for any Kage. Tsunade would struggle, and might even come close to losing if she fought like she did against Kabuto, but if she goes all out ( Katsuya + Strength of 100 + Full Strength Punches) she should win handily.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Addressing speed: Sasuke has a 4.5, while Tsunade has a 3.5. That is a single point gap, which while notable, is not nearly enough to decisively win the match for Sasuke.
> 
> Orochimaru has a 4.5 in speed, but Tsunade _reacted to his attacks_ just fine, and even _blitzed him_. Before anyone suggests that Orochimaru's illness impeded his physical movement speed, I'd like to point out that unless proven otherwise, it was only his arms and chakra levels that were especially affected.
> 
> Part I Kabuto had a 3.5 in speed, and that speed increased after he consumed a soldier pill. Yet, as with Orochimaru, Tsunade _kept pace with him up_ until she threw herself into his Chakra Scalpels.


Orochimaru was sick, tired and exhausted, by Tsunade's own admission. 

FYI, the , balance and helps in propelling you forward, which is why runners always use them.


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