# Nanoha Takamachi vs Carissa (ToAru)



## Amae (Jan 10, 2012)

This is a rematch thread that may have a different outcome. How does this go?

Scenario one: Shards of Curtana Second
Scenario two: Curtana Original


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

Same as before Carissa stomps.


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## Weather (Jan 10, 2012)

LOL no.

Current calcs of Nanohaverse have Nanoha blasting the fuck out of Carissa.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

Reason? please.


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## OS (Jan 10, 2012)

*checks wiki
*remembers seeing supersonic 
*shes now Mach 26
*lolwut


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## Amae (Jan 10, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> Same as before Carissa stomps.


What keen insight there. 

Nanoha's barriers will protect her from dimensional distortions. She has a flight advantage and somewhat of a speed advantage. Dealing with her shards may be taxing (no idea on the details of the mountain Water Wing blew up). 

Nanoha can fire at least 11 blasts with the fire power to at the minimum level a city (a feat from Force has a character easily destroy 10.4 billion m^3 of ice) while using the Blaster System (something that causes physical damage to both her and Raising Heart) before succumbing to fatigue. Without using that, the limit should be higher.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

Mind posting the feat of destroying Ice, I recall hayate summoning ice, but not nanoha destroying it, neither a mach 25 feat I would love to see the calculation.

Nanoha have no feat to deal with dimensional destroying attacks.


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## Amae (Jan 10, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> Mind posting the feat of destroying Ice, I recall hayate summoning ice, but not nanoha destroying it, neither a mach 25 feat I would love to see the calculation.



 feat. 

 . The second one is a revision of the first one.

time
time

Something her barriers protected her from.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

They never destroy the iceberg, also ice or any crystaline substance its easy to shatter and mountain buster is normally a greter feat due to need to destroy bedrock and granite.

Ahh I get of the calculation is that the low end would be mach 15, mach 20 with pixelscaling which is still below Carissa.

Dimensional distorsion =/= dimensial destruction.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 10, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> They never destroy the iceberg,



Um...

I don't read or watch Nanoha, but what are you talking about?

Some mage destroyed it rather casually.



> also ice or any crystaline substance its easy to shatter and mountain buster is normally a greter feat due to need to destroy bedrock and granite.



I didn't see any crystals raining from the size as debris.  The energy behind it was far above the likes of needing to only shatter it dude.

Ice or not, the energy required to do that is easily into the megaton level.



> Ahh I get of the calculation is that the low end would be mach 15, mach 20 with pixelscaling which is still below Carissa.



There have been corrections to it since then that take ino account things Garv hadn't before.

The mach 15 isn't accurate any longer.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

That mage use a strong attack and could KO almost kill Agito Signum which would be >> Nanoha, if you see all the panels the ice was shatter (most of it).

Edit: So in the revision whats the low end calculation for Nanoha?


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## OS (Jan 10, 2012)

So what does Carissa get though?

Shards? or the Curtana Original? 

Having the original should put her above mountain level since it was either one or two shards to take gabriels wings on. Or am i wrong?

FYI the shards are from Curtana second if i read right which means that original should make her durability much stronger.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 10, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> That mage use a strong attack and could KO almost kill Agito Signum which would be >> Nanoha, if you see all the panels the ice was shatter (most of it).



Really?

You meant to say "Nanoha couldn't accomplish a similar feat" as opposed to "the iceberg wasn't destroyed" then?

Fair enough.

Wasn't saying it wasn't shattered.  I'm saying you're downplaying the level of energy required to smash a mass of ice that size.

Minimum the energy required would be close to a megaton (referred to as cratering energy, ice's is like... less than 1 joules/cc of ice IIRC).  It likely took far more.

Current revised version is mach 26 or something apparently.

It's in that HST thread for Nanoha or whatever.

I can fetch it if you need it, but I don't even know both verses.  I'm just posting because I've had to look over those calcs before.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

I am not downplaying it, I understand where u are comming but 

a) the energy here isn't as spreed as a impact towards the earth as it would absorb the energy, the iceberg remain of big chuncks of ice what we call a mountain buster here would have reduce it to pretty much nothing.

b) the attack is a slice which would mean the energy is focus, nanoha attacks are rays and explosions on impact.

@OS: 1 shard to block a mountain buster.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 10, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> I am not downplaying it, I understand where u are comming but



No, you don't, because you seem to be under the impression these labels apply simply to how the destruction looks in the aftermath.

I'm basing my judgement on what we consider the lowest end of city/mountain level around here.

That'd be 2.7 megatons. 



> a) the energy here isn't as spreed as a impact towards the earth as it would absorb the energy, the iceberg remain of big chuncks of ice what we call a mountain buster here *would have reduce it to pretty much nothing.*



For a mass that size?

Hell no 

You'd be surprised how large a chunk of shit can remain, yet still have the attack reaching multi megaton yields.

That's 11 billion meters cubed of ice.  Your logic isn't going to fly Xellos.



> b) the attack is a slice which would mean the energy is focus, nanoha attacks are rays and explosions on impact.



Your point?

Is Nanoha of a comparable tier?

If so, shouldn't she be capable of producing a similar level of 
energy?  "focused" or not, that logic is silly.

Why do I always end up debating semantics 

I don't even like To aru and never even watched or read Nanoha.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

Nanoha should be a comparable tier yes.

But as you say you are looking to the energy needed fair enough but Carrisa tank something that pretty much pulverize a mountain.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 10, 2012)

If so, that's fair.

I'm just arguing semantics again 

Its an amazingly annoying habit I developed...

Will ask where mach 20 comes from in To Aru though.

Just in case I need to know in a future thread relevant to my interests.


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## OS (Jan 10, 2012)

Indeed. I asked Greed before and he said something about Accelerators wings and someone going many times the speed of sound.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 10, 2012)

So...

One of his attacks has that speed?

Why's that make it so he can react to those speeds (Not asking about movement given it's likely his vectors or some shit from what I read causing it right?)?


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## OS (Jan 10, 2012)

He launched someone with his wings which do vector calcs for him at that speed if that is what you are asking.

As for react in that battle? Idk. Lemme check now.....or tomorrow.


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## Weather (Jan 10, 2012)

Wasn't that from Accelerator Punching Kihara many tens of times the speed of sound (so minimum Mach 20)?


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

I need to check (or read again) its a power scaling from fighting either Aqua or Knight leader.

I don't recall if willy or greed made that calculation.

And its a she


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 10, 2012)

Fair enough.

That's all I want to know.

If he's capable of moving at and thinking at that sort of speed?

Carry on citing it.

If not?  Welp.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

She has precognition that help her fight at those speeds (magic if you want).
As is noted to be useless vs Gabriel as he control all supernatural senses.


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## Amae (Jan 10, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> That mage use a strong attack and could KO almost kill Agito Signum which would be >> Nanoha, if you see all the panels the ice was shatter (most of it).



She nullifies magic. That is why Signum was defeated so easily.



> Edit: So in the revision whats the low end calculation for Nanoha?



Mach 26. High end is Mach 40.



> Shards? or the Curtana Original?



I assumed both were standard equipment.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

No its 1 or the others also me I ask the calculation (as a fan of nanoha  it would help on certain forum).


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## OS (Jan 10, 2012)

It's hard to get a right speed since the author always goes. "At supersonic speeds" or the translation is that way. 



> I assumed both were standard equipment.



No. They are different.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

Its not the author half the time, but the editors of baka tsuki (not that I can blame them), actually kanzaki with misha fight is very explicid on the time frame.


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## OS (Jan 10, 2012)

STill gotta get feats for Kanzaki in the novel against Brunhild


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## Weather (Jan 10, 2012)

Well seeing the speed those guys from BakaTsuki translate, some errors are acceptable.

Seriously they translate way too fast.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

I dunno whats more impresive their translation speed of kamachi writing speed.


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## OS (Jan 10, 2012)

Weather said:


> Well seeing the speed those guys from BakaTsuki translate, some errors are acceptable.
> 
> Seriously they translate way too fast.



And js06 also re-translated V.20-22



Xelloss said:


> I dunno whats more impresive their translation speed of kamachi writing speed.



Which explains his frikin fast pacing


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## Amae (Jan 10, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> No. They are different.


I understood that much. 



> Dimensional distorsion =/= dimensial destruction


She destroys dimensions? Isn't it more of the lines of dimensional cutting? 

Being protected from an dimensional distortion (the entire explosion) and a spell that distorts space should be considered some line of defense.

I already posted the calcs in my other post. They're for the speed of Nanoha's beam (something top tier mages have no problem of reacting to).


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## OS (Jan 10, 2012)

Couldn't she just cut through it?


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

She would cut it, not its not the same Amae, it won't save her of this kind of attacks not curtana or ea.


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## Amae (Jan 10, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> Couldn't she just cut through it?


Her dimensional cuts work by opening a city scaled rift in space and it creates aftermass as a result. How is the destruction done exactly?


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## pikachuwei (Jan 10, 2012)

Accelerator is Mach 20 minimum (in Darkwing)

He threw Kihara at "many tens of times the speed of sound" so minimum Mach 20

Due to lolvectorcontrol Accelerator could just propel himself at that speed (not factoring in that Kihara is bigger and heavier than Accel so Accel would move even faster with the same force)

I'm guessing Carissa being Mach 20 would be powerscaling.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

By cleaving the dimension as y ou say, the after mass is basically the result of the colapse of the dimension. Still we have no actual prof that Nanoha can tank 1 of those at all.

@Pika: still thats not relevant in any way to Carissa unless I am missing something.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 10, 2012)

pikachuwei said:


> Accelerator is Mach 20 minimum (in Darkwing)
> 
> He threw Kihara at "many tens of times the speed of sound" so minimum Mach 20
> 
> ...



Has he though?

Movement speed is nice, but how about actually being able to react at those speeds?

That's kind of important for one to move and initiate combat and all.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

I think I already mention thats deal with precognition in combat. 


*Spoiler*: __ 





> “GET OUT OF THE WAY YOU BARBARIAN!”
> 
> The instant before the shot was fired, the Maiden of Versailles moved at supersonic speeds. Circling around from the back of Misha, she kicked out at Carrisa from the sides, knocking her away to safety. For most people such a humiliating treatment would have had the two engage in fierce battle, but for those two, this would be considered an act of kindness.
> 
> ...


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## Amae (Jan 10, 2012)

I'm only arguing Carissa wouldn't be able to outright ignore the durability of her barriers with her dimensional cutting. Nanoha can create a round shield (easily taking a S Rank attack that matched her Exelion Buster in an anti-magic field, a stronger variation of DB, which can be powerscaled to city level), three shields fly around her that generate barriers automatically that should be of comparable durability, and her barrier jacket. Carissa can't fly and she's slower. 

Any size on this mountain Water Wing destroyed?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 10, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> I think I already mention thats deal with precognition in combat.



Um.

These 2 were fighting some maiden of something or other that fired attacks off at mach 20+?

What distance away was the pair?

Kind of like how Neo's bullet timing in the matrix isn't supersonic by any actual means, the same could be happening here.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

No they

Carrisa (English princess) and Maiden of Versalles (French) where fighting Archangel Gabriel.

I am not posting speed you ask me for how they could fight at high speed, here they mention is by magic.

@Amae those shields where physical, Curtana ignore dimensions or cut in the normal plane the point is nanoha barriers and durability is null here.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 10, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> No they
> 
> Carrisa (English princess) and Maiden of Versalles (French) where fighting Archangel Gabriel.
> 
> I am not posting speed you ask me for how they could fight at high speed, here they mention is by magic.



I got that they have precog, but that's only so helpful if they can't move out of the way in time of an incoming attack.

I don't even get where Gabriel is mach 20+ comes from other than wing/whatever speed unless otherwise shown.

I don't read To Aru, so if I'm coming across as frustratingly obtuse, sorry about that.


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## Xelloss (Jan 10, 2012)

No its ok, now if you want to feats itself you would have to calculate them (and as I was looking for this feat in particular) seems they edited again the novels.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 11, 2012)

I guess I could look at the relevant feats or whatever.

Never done a calc for a transcript though.

Normally work with visuals


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## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2012)

Well most of the humans are barely peak human the only people with "good" physical feats are the saints, carissa, knight leader, maiden and the angels.

If you want I can give you links to the "relevant" parsts.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 11, 2012)

Sure, just PM them or something.

I'll get around to looking at them if I have time.


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## Amae (Jan 11, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> @Amae those shields where physical, Curtana ignore dimensions or cut in the normal plane the point is nanoha barriers and durability is null here.


Nanoha's barriers are all mana driven (which protected her from an explosion that directly distorted space and time, and a spell that deals with spatial warping). Here you see Fate directly containing the explosion.

But, this is all of course assuming Carissa can get a hit off before Nanoha can. Nanoha has binding magic capable of holding Carissa off, if it came down to that. She can then attack before Carissa even has time to attempt to break out. I don't see her losing scenario two.

Is there any kind of way to get the size of the mountain that was destroyed? It should matter.


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## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2012)

Binding? yeah right you know how much power does curtana holds and how much nerfed she was to be able to fight at the same time 3 hypersonic charactes.

All hard hitting attacks of nanoha have charge time, and mana driven defenses have done nothing vs curtana.

Theres no mention of the mountain destroyed... well the 2 mountains 1 by the angel losing a feather and the other by using a blast.


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## Amae (Jan 11, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> Binding? yeah right you know how much power does curtana holds and how much nerfed she was to be able to fight at the same time 3 hypersonic charactes.


Not following.



> All hard hitting attacks of nanoha have charge time, and mana driven defenses have done nothing vs curtana.



Nanoha's able to fire off her Exelion Buster in roughly a second.


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## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2012)

Which to a match 25 is a lot of free time.

In short, if Carrisa can outclass with less than 50% of her power 3 people who are on Nanoha level, ignore their magic I don't see how nanoha binding would do much good here.


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## Amae (Jan 11, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> Which to a match 25 is a lot of free time.



Huh? A second is a second. You made the claim her hard hitting attacks were restricted by charge time. Nanoha can use her blaster bits to imprison Carissa in Crystal Cage or even attack while she's distracted.



> In short, if Carrisa can outclass with less than 50% of her power 3 people who are on Nanoha level, ignore their magic I don't see how nanoha binding would do much good here.



You're not saying much of anything here. Who are these three people,  in which way are they comparable to Nanoha, and what does that have to do with her binding and capture spells?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 11, 2012)

He means at mach 25, 1 second might as well be an eternity.

At those speeds... our (regular human speeds) movements are hundreds of times slower.

Thus, logic would follow, that at least in a fight, a hypersonic characters perception of time would be hundreds of times slower than our own.

1 second is a shit ton of time at those speeds basically.

Have anything better to offer than the vague "1 second" amae?


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## Amae (Jan 11, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Have anything better to offer than the vague "1 second" amae?


Not really. It's not as if Carissa would be capable of breaking the binding that quickly. And Nanoha's not incapable of, you know, moving. Hence the "Huh?"

Crystal Cage also doesn't allow the target to bring about any magical energy within it. Magic is how Carissa is able to fight (and thus perceive) at her level of speed.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 11, 2012)

for Xelloss if you have nothing better to do and wanna get a better idea of the opposition


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## pikachuwei (Jan 11, 2012)

The Chinese translation of the original script doesn't give any indication of how big the mountains Misha blow up are.

I know, I translated that bit into english.

Though it is worth noting that the kanji 山 used in both Chinese and Japanese can mean both "mountain" or "hill", so it could just be the latter. Given that the battle takes place in Russian Tundra I'm more inclined to believe it's the latter (not sure if there are mountains in russian tundra), I wote "mountain" because it sounds cooler.

Though Misha is easily mountain-busting level anyway, throwing away an 100m long wing of magic ice at supersonic speeds is pretty dangerous. And even her Mountain/Hill busting palm was near instant and invisible (Carissa was unable to percieve the attack)


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## Amae (Jan 11, 2012)

pikachuwei said:


> The Chinese translation of the original script doesn't give any indication of how big the mountains Misha blow up are.
> 
> Though it is worth noting that the kanji 山 used in both Chinese and Japanese can mean both "mountain" or "hill", so it could just be the latter.


There's that. Depending on the size (minimum requirements to be considered a mountain) of the mountain or hill, taking out a shard is well within Nanoha's abilities using her strongest spells (Exelion Buster, Divine Buster, and SLB). She can fire at least 11 blasts.

Nanoha can win by staying out of her range with her flight, using capture spells (more or less equivalent to the strength of her barriers and they can be used in conjunction with each other), and then bombarding her in both scenarios.


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## Amae (Jan 11, 2012)

Carissa uses magic to fight at high speeds. How exactly does she bring about this magic?


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## OS (Jan 11, 2012)

Curtana gives it to her


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## Amae (Jan 11, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> Curtana gives it to her


Alright, then Crystal Cage (the target isn't allowed to bring about any magical energy within it) would literally slow her down.


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## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2012)

mana =/= telesma  curtana work on teleasma


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## Amae (Jan 11, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> mana =/= telesma  curtana work on teleasma


Does teleasma enable people (Angels) with the ability to use magic? Then it's equivalent.


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## OS (Jan 11, 2012)

Angels don't use magic. They use Telesma.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 11, 2012)

To Aru's energy system sounds fucked up.

3 different sources with no real similarities?


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## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2012)

Mana = humans
Esper = aim
Angels = telesma

telesma >> aim >> mana


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## OS (Jan 11, 2012)

There is a 4th I think too.


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## Amae (Jan 11, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> Carrisa (English princess) and Maiden of Versalles (French) where fighting Archangel Gabriel.
> 
> I am not posting speed you ask me for how they could fight at high speed, here they mention is *by magic*.





			
				OriginalSin said:
			
		

> Curtana gives it to her



The fuck? Don't go around posting false information ...



> Mana = humans
> Esper = aim
> Angels = telesma
> 
> telesma >> aim >> mana



Isn't mana simply the energy that allows humans to use magic? It's an energy source. Telesma is an energy source to use .... ?


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## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2012)

both are magic, different source of power, its not false information, also you have to prove that spell can affect something on the level of curtana.


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## OS (Jan 11, 2012)

An Involuntary Movement (AIM): AIM Is a term used to refer to the phenomenon in which an esper involuntarily produces an invisible energy field. The AIM Dispersion Field has been a main focus in most stories on the Science Side; it also plays heavily in Aleister Crowley's plans. In itself, AIM is relatively harmless as it cannot be detected by regular humans; however, AIM is toxic to magicians and is also shown to have anti-magic capabilities in sufficient amounts. 

Telesma: Telesma is an Angel's equivalent of Mana. It can have highly dangerous effects on the real world, such as causing large tidal waves. However, there are some people who can control telesma, like Birdway, Gods Right Seat, as well as both of the characters who use Curtana.

Mana: Mana is the energy that allows magicians to use magic. Mana exists in all forms of life, not just magicians, although they are the only ones who use it. It has been explicitly stated one method of creating mana is by processing a person's inner lifeforce, similar to how crude oil is refined into other substances.

Grimoire: This term refers to a book containing knowledge about magic. They are considered to be powerful tools with esoteric knoweldge and powerful magic spells written in them. It is harmful to all who dare read its contents, although, currently, only Index is immune to the debihiltating effects of the grimoires, and with her perfect memory, allows her to serve as the vessel of the Index Librorum Prohibitorum. Grimoires are seemingly sentient enough to disclose its contents to people who desire information from it. Grimoires can apparently identify whether someone was a "reader" or "not a reader", and have the tendency to cooperate with those who would propagate the information with their contents.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 11, 2012)

This Telesma just sounds like Sei Ko Ki from YYH to me honestly.

Just a more potent version of mana from what I'm getting.

OS's post more or less cements my opinion on that matter actually.


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## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2012)

Grimores use mana, so they areon't a four source at all.


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## OS (Jan 11, 2012)

It kind of is but it can't be used in ToAru by others without consequence. If someone uses telesma they are restricted from using mana and AIM. Except i believe the royal family since it's an artifact. I could be wrong.

@XElloss, talking about Accelerators wings.



> ...The power field was similar to [Telesma], but substantially different. In the first place, the utility of the demonic arts is different in treatment compared to the usual [Telesma]. ...With such great power, I'm not sure whether or not even a Saint could control it...


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 11, 2012)

I suppose Sensui didn't have that sort of restriction, but they certainly seem similar enough.

Can telesma be used to create attacks that'd normally use mana for instance?

That's my biggest question I guess.


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## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2012)

Telesma magic is pretty much just angelic class spells or artifacts, so far only 2 "normal mages" can use telesma to attack as put telesma inside the body would destroy it, humans aren't mean to control that power.


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## OS (Jan 11, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I suppose Sensui didn't have that sort of restriction, but they certainly seem similar enough.
> 
> Can telesma be used to create attacks that'd normally use mana for instance?
> 
> That's my biggest question I guess.



Well I think this answers it.

Things like Acqua of the back using water attacks. Is that what you mean?

Though the calibur is different i think. For someone to use telesma they use much stronger attacks and are usually the top tiers in toaru. And like I said you can't use any mana which is considered normal magic.




> so far only 2 "normal mages" can use telesma to attack as put telesma inside the body would destroy it, humans aren't mean to control that power.



depowered acqua right? and who else?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 11, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> Well I think this answers it.
> 
> Things like Acqua of the back using water attacks. Is that what you mean?



Basically.



> Though the calibur is different i think. For someone to use telesma they use much stronger attacks and are usually the top tiers in toaru. And like I said you can't use any mana which is considered normal magic.



I'd assume the caliber is differen given you're leading me to believe the energy is far more potent than normal mana.

Just trying to learn stuff for future threads.  Kind of bored and all.


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## OS (Jan 11, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I'd assume the caliber is differen given you're leading me to believe the energy is far more potent than normal mana.
> 
> Just trying to learn stuff for future threads.  Kind of bored and all.



Well yeah. You are using angel magic after all 

Curtana is an artifact i believe used by Micheal.


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## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2012)

Full power aqua used Telesma, and Birdway also all the knights but thats more due to Curtana than their own power.


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## Amae (Jan 11, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> both are magic, different source of power, its not false information,





			
				OriginalSin said:
			
		

> Angels don't use magic. They use Telesma.



Can't blame someone for being confused.



> also you have to prove that spell can affect something on the level of curtana.


Do Curtana and Carissa have any abilities that counter such things? From what I understand, they don't. Those captured cannot use any mana resource and thus cannot use magic. It works in the same manner AMF does by preventing the energy from forming (rendering mages incapable of efficiently using their mana). In the Nanohaverse, this also means the usage of their intelligent devices, but mages in Nanoha have ways to deal with it that Carissa can't replicate. If Curtana is granting Carissa magical senses through Telesma (the energy resource casting the magic), it should work. 

She has to break the bindings and then break the cage imprisoning her, even if it didn't work. Ample time to launch an attack.


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## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2012)

The only time someone try to bind her on any way she destroy a forest for the lolz, you can't claim something would seal other power just because of the type, specially when that source are the devices from fortress, and curtana doesn't work on the same principle.

Because due to similar speed we can claim that Carissa fire a blast of Curtana and kill nanoha while she does that.


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## OS (Jan 11, 2012)

Telesma like said is somewhat like mana when it comes to using powers but it's different in power.

Or I am wrong and Xelloss just explains cuz im just bored and sick here.


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## Amae (Jan 11, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> The only time someone try to bind her on any way she destroy a forest for the lolz,



Point and relevance? You act as if they were working under the same principles, the bindings have the same power behind them, etc ...



> you can't claim something would seal other power just because of the type, specially when that source are the devices from fortress, and curtana doesn't work on the same principle.



I said nothing about sealing. 



> Because due to similar speed we can claim that Carissa fire a blast of Curtana and kill nanoha while she does that.


1. Nanoha's faster than Carissa and has a flight advantage. 2. Her blaster bits are fully capable of doing the binding and imprisonment without Nanoha coming near Carissa.


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## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2012)

You haven't post the 26 mach feat, even so 25 with precognition vs 26, blast advante is more like "hey I am here blast me".

Her blaster haven't bind someone that strong, much less with a sword that can cut them, also a single strike from carissa and its over, while she can tank Nanoha attacks.

So you saying her binding would stop someone like I dunno Rezo just because he use magic? thats a no limit fallancy.


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## OS (Jan 11, 2012)

I thought they did post the feat on the first page.

Also, both manga and anime are canon?


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2012)

a mach 15 feat, and as far as I know yes both are canon.


----------



## Amae (Jan 11, 2012)

> Her blaster haven't bind someone that strong, much less with a sword that can cut them, also a single strike from carissa and its over, while she can tank Nanoha attacks.



Nanoha's round shield is capable of easily blocking city level attacks, her bindings and cage would be of comparable strength. That is something I already stated.

Are you also aware there's a scenario with Carissa without the shards? Without them, good luck on tanking Nanoha's attacks. And what grounds do you believe a shard could tank one of her attacks? Without the size of the mountain and the exact power behind Water Wing, that's a pretty dubious claim.



> So you saying her binding would stop someone like I dunno Rezo just because he use magic? thats a no limit fallancy.


How's that strawman you're beating on? I never said that.




Xelloss said:


> a mach 15 feat, and as far as I know yes both are canon.


Here's the  I already posted. And I'll even quote it, so you understand fully:



> *Low end
> V = 1136.61m / 0.125sec = 9092.88m/s
> High end
> V = 1704.91m / 0.125sec = 13639.28m/s*



9092.88 m/s = Mach 26.7219

13639.28m/s = Mach 40.0828

Is it really that hard? And where are you getting Carissa = Mach 25? It should be 20 based off keeping up with Gabriel.


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2012)

First the difference here, water wing pulverize the mountain or hill, doesn't just destruct it, she also survive a sweep attack from archangel  aka meteors.

Curtana have better defenses than the shards.

And that calculation is different that the one you original posted, do you have prof her restrains are that strong, and more than they can take a cut from Curtana, the scenari your putting is basically implying Carissa would stand and do nothing, also your calculation is taking as time measure the frame rate we don't know the exact time and unless I am wrong japan use a 29.6 framerate.

You can't calculate based on just frame time.


----------



## OS (Jan 11, 2012)

1) Im pretty sure it should be considered a regular mountain. Seeing as Arcueid for example was said to throw a moon but when evidence was shown it was mountain sized.

2) Carissa has 10 shards.

3) what's the point of a shield if you have something that can bypass it?


----------



## Amae (Jan 11, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> First the difference here, water wing pulverize the mountain or hill, doesn't just destruct it, she also survive a sweep attack from archangel  aka meteors.



Water Wing shattered a shard. And she survived that attack from Gabriel with ten of them.



> Curtana have better defenses than the shards.



Based off? You can't scale like that.



> And that calculation is different that the one you original posted,



No, it isn't. Don't actually make me quote my post to prove you wrong .... It's three revisions of the same calc (that's where you got Mach 15 from). I posted both the one that got Mach 20-30 and the 26-40 one.



> do you have prof her restrains are that strong,



They work under the same principles.



> the scenari your putting is basically implying Carissa would stand and do nothing,



Uh, funny implications when I actually directly said she wouldn't be able to break out of it in time to avoid bombardment. Of course she won't just sit there.



> You can't calculate based on just frame time.



Ha, you can and it has been done before. It'll probably be done again. Get over it, it's an already accepted calculation.



Original Sin said:


> 1) Im pretty sure it should be considered a regular mountain.



Depending on the size, the destruction capacity would vary ...



> 2) Carissa has 10 shards.



Nanoha can fire at the very least 11 blasts capable of shattering a shard.


----------



## OS (Jan 11, 2012)

> Depending on the size, the destruction capacity would vary ...


 Indeed. But no one can really claim it's not an average mountain though likewise you can't say you can. Though I think when novels explain similar things it's accepted the average size of such thing unless stated otherwise. Again like ARcs moons. We assumed it was a normal sized moon. When instead it's a mountain sized moon.



> Nanoha can fire at the very least 11 blasts capable of shattering a shard.


 You mean all her shards or just one shard. If just one she can just say lol and bring out another one which she keeps all on her.

and also why doesn't this end in blitz? Or is it because Carissas durability is better?



> And she survived that attack from Gabriel with ten of them.


 No, I believe she said she had 10 more. She didn't use all of them.



> Based off? You can't scale like that.



And why not? It's a fraction of the full power and to add its off the second curtana which is only 20% of the full power of the Original which Carissa used in the coup.


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## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2012)

Amae said:


> Water Wing shattered a shard. And she survived that attack from Gabriel with ten of them.



Survived the water wing which pulverize a mountain, better feat than destroying the block of ice.

Use 10 to cover 3 armies and civilians.



> Based off? You can't scale like that.



The shards have just less than 2% of the power of curtana original.



> No, it isn't. Don't actually make me quote my post to prove you wrong .... It's three revisions of the same calc (that's where you got Mach 15 from). I posted both the one that got Mach 20-30 and the 26-40 one.



The calcution you original posted was bethin mach 15 and mach 20 then you say there was a new one but didn't post it, or probably miss it.



> They work under the same principle.



1 of lina spells can light a room or just warm a bed, another destroy the universe, but hey its the same principle



> Uh, funny implications when I actually directly said she wouldn't be able to break out of it in time to avoid bombardment. Of course, she won't sit there.



Implying it would work to start off, that nanoha won't eat a dimensional cut on the same time, that she won't break them before nanoha charge a powerful blast, that she would be even damage by it.



> Ha, you can and it has been done before. It'll probably be done again. Get over it.



Its a flawed system as we dunno how much time actually pass, saint seiya move to fast that if we use that method they would be ultra slow and millions of times the speed of light.



> Depending on the size, the destruction capacity would vary ...



Pulverize something needs multiple times the damage a mountain buster.



> Nanoha can fire at the very least 11 blasts capable of shattering a shard.



Which take to long to charge.


----------



## Amae (Jan 12, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> Though I think when novels explain similar things it's accepted the average size of such thing unless stated otherwise. Again like ARcs moons. We assumed it was a normal sized moon. When instead it's a mountain sized moon.



I agree, pretty much.



> You mean all her shards or just one shard.



All of them. 



> and so why doesn't this end in blitz? Or is it because Carissas durability is better?



Carissa's dimensional cutting is the most lethal thing she has. Her durability isn't exactly better, she just has the ability to outright ignore Nanoha's. Maximizing the flight advantage and staying away from her would prove best. 



> No, I believe she said she had 10 more. She didn't use all of them.



Was talking about the sweep attack.



> And why not? It's a fraction of the full power and to add its off the second curtana which is only 20% of the full power of the Original which Carissa used in the coup.



The shards are stated to specifically take the most suited form of defense against her opponent's abilities. Erecting a barrier against the Archangel and then assuming a form to be used as a melee weapon. The details in what Carissa did to the shards to take those forms aren't even clear. "A fraction of the full power", but in which manner?



> Survived the water wing which pulverize a mountain, better feat than destroying the block of ice.



It all depends. And the ice was pulverized.



> 1 of lina spells can light a room or just warm a bed, another destroy the universe, but hey its the same principle



You sure like strawman. 



> Its a flawed system as we dunno how much time actually pass



Are you serious? Follow this ... hopefully:

1. You count the frames that the beam is within the barrier.
2. There's a lapse of time between each frame 

Got that? 



> The calcution you original posted was bethin mach 15 and mach 20 then you say there was a new one but didn't post it, or probably miss it



Nope. You're actually making me quote my post:



Amae said:


> feat.
> 
> . The second one is a revision of the first one.



I even put it in bold for you now.


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 12, 2012)

And the method is still flawed.

The ice wasn't pulverized it was fragmented, which require much less destructive force.

Yeah except that while Carrisa was fighting the was protected by a barrier and the only people who actually could land a hit on her where 3 people at saint level.

As you have admit already Carissa still holds the edge on the battle.

Edit: yeah I guess I miss the second link my bad sorry.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 12, 2012)

I agree that the timeframe method isn't exactly flawless

it was a reaction feat by Signum btw


----------



## Amae (Jan 12, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> And the method is still flawed.



Actually make some valid points on how it's flawed then.



> As you have admit already Carissa still holds the edge on the battle.



With Curtana Original, yeah.



> it was a reaction feat by Signum btw



It isn't. It's just a calc for the speed of Nanoha's beam, something Fate reacted to it and could guard against. Nanoha has no trouble fighting Fate, Signum has no problem fighting Fate, etc. Dieci's cannon = Nanoha's beam in speed, Nanoha outspeeds Dieci's cannon.


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 12, 2012)

Amae said:


> Actually make some valid points on how it's flawed then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First the speed can change according to the series, if not given a time frame or something to compare we don't know the exact time, as many series make use of spectator time (so we can see something so fast we can't barely see it).

Fate is stated more than once to be faster than Nanoha same Signum, also reaction speed is different from actual speed.


----------



## Garv (Jan 12, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> I agree that the timeframe method isn't exactly flawless
> 
> it was a reaction feat by Signum btw



S1 Fate has been virtually unable to react when S1 Nanoha uses Flash Impact. Although Fate could easily react to any shots and beams.

S2 Wolkenritter>>> S1 N & F

High Tier (like Reinforce and "masked guys ")>>> S2 Wolks and N & F

You seem to agree with the definition of "Combat Speed", let's close the topic of speed.

Anyway, I do not know Toaru enough to judge this fight.

From what I understand, Carissa has HAX.
Based on what I know, the only chance to win it for Nanoha:
Each of the blaster bits, RH(SA mode) and  Nanoha herself create Strike Stars, but do not shoot right away.
After that they all use Excelion Buster / DB / SLB (or Strike Cannon for Nanoha), while using the Strike stars from the other direction.
 +Beam cannon
 +Plasma cannon

So we could get an attack from 14 directions at once.

Also
Someone said that Signum + Agito>> Nanoha

This is not true

AA Nanoha = AA Signum (they have twice been a draw in sparring)
But Full Powered Nanoha(base, excluding blaster system and blaster bits) = S + and Full Powered Signum = S-
Signum + Agito can at best be around S + level

Cypha beat Signum with limiters (they met by chance, and limiters can be removed only with the permission in case of emergency)

Then we saw that Fate could fight Cypha on equal terms and  base Fate = base Nanoha.


----------



## Amae (Jan 12, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> First the speed can change according to the series, if not given a time frame or something to compare we don't know the exact time, as many series make use of spectator time (so we can see something so fast we can't barely see it).



This has nothing to do with the calculation method. 



> Fate is stated more than once to be faster than Nanoha same Signum,



No barring on whether the Mach 26 feat applies to Nanoha. Unless you're implying Fate in S1 is superior to Nanoha in StrikerS and beyond. I hope not. Also, refer to Garv's post above.



> also reaction speed is different from actual speed.



Dieci's cannon = Nanoha's beam in speed, Nanoha outspeeds Dieci's cannon. I just said that, by the way.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 12, 2012)

Just putting it out there, but I feel everyone claiming using the frames from the video as a timeframe is flawed is reaching a fuckton to invalidate a calc that makes the series faster than To Aru currently is.

EM had no issues, I found no issues using them, you better have a damn good argument against them.

Don't use the viewer perception nonsense given, if anything, the shit on screen is likely SLOWED for us to view as opposed to being made to transition FASTER.


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## OS (Jan 12, 2012)

So, no progress?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 12, 2012)

Is there ever in the OBD?

I'm just here for the show.


----------



## OS (Jan 12, 2012)

More like to make sure no one fucks with da calcs amiright?


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## Xelloss (Jan 12, 2012)

I don't mind but Mach 26 low end vs Mach 25+ speed isn't a winning factor here.


----------



## OS (Jan 12, 2012)

I thought Carissa was Mach 20

either way Amae agrees with that as i mentioned before about the speed they said other factors prevent speedblitz.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 12, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> More like to make sure no one fucks with da calcs amiright?



I'm apparently supposed to be an authority on what's valid and what not.

Go fucking figure on that.

Just doing this out of boredom's sake.

Anyone else can feel free to contradict me, but they better have a strong argument against the method.



Xelloss said:


> I don't mind but Mach 26 low end vs Mach 25+ speed isn't a winning factor here.



Whether it is or not isn't what I care about here.

You trying to question a rather straight forward and legitimate way of calcing something is.

I haven't been a part of the topic title's debate, period.


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## OS (Jan 12, 2012)

> I'm apparently supposed to be an authority on what's valid and what not.
> 
> Go fucking figure on that.


Sucks being useful eh.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 12, 2012)

It really does.

I prefer being lazy.


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## OS (Jan 12, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> It really does.
> 
> I prefer being lazy.



Then I suggest this. Smoke weed. And knock the fuck out!


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## Xelloss (Jan 12, 2012)

As I pointed we need to figure which framerate the show was broadcast, fan subs normally force the reencoding to 26 frames but Japan have gone as low as 13 frames to almost 90, encoding programs can add frames to make the animation smooth.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 12, 2012)

Nah.

I'll leave shit like that to Dandy.

Napping is more my thing.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 12, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> As I pointed we need to figure which framerate the show was broadcast, fan subs normally force the reencoding to 26 frames but Japan have gone as low as 13 frames to almost 90, encoding programs can add frames to make the animation smooth.



Xellos, that doesn't really change anything as far as I can tell.

Just makes it a different form of fraction, same percentage of time.

As you said, it makes the animation smoother.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Jan 12, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I'm apparently supposed to be an authority on what's valid and what not.
> 
> Go fucking figure on that.



It's the Point Finger Syndrome.


----------



## Amae (Jan 12, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> I thought Carissa was Mach 20



She is. 



> either way Amae agrees with that as i mentioned before about the speed they said other factors prevent speedblitz.



Scenario One: With the speed and flight advantage (Nanoha can even use Flash Move to temporarily increase her speed), Carissa would be hard pressed actually landing a hit. Nanoha can set up SLB / DB / EB with her blaster bits without shooting them (she can fire up to 4 at a time with them) until restricting her limbs and/or imprisoning her within a cage. This can done from afar or melee range. Bombardment would then immediately proceed. She has her Strike Cannon and can also fire off a blast with Raising Heart. 

Without her dimensional cutting, Nanoha's barriers would more than hold up. She has three shields floating around her that will generate barriers automatically, shields she can create herself, and her barrier jackets as defense. They can all individually block city level attacks.


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## Xelloss (Jan 12, 2012)

Over Mach 20 but we don't know how much over it but she was fighting 2 Mach 20+ character another hypersonic at half power

Add to this she can use knight leader pattern magic to increase her speed further.

Seems the nanoha fan is hell bend to make nanoha win.


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## Amae (Jan 12, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> Over Mach 20 but we don't know how much over it but she was fighting 2 Mach 20+ character another hypersonic at half power



That means little to nothing. I can do the same thing - the speed calc is in excess of Mach 26 and the high end is Mach 40, Fate and Nanoha become faster by an unknown amount, etc. At the end of the day, they're still stuck at the aforementioned speed.



> Add to this she can use knight leader pattern magic to increase her speed further.



Doesn't that require her having Curtana Original? One scenario has her without.



> Seems the nanoha fan is hell bend to make nanoha win.



Not particularly a fan or hell bent, I just happen to be interested in the verse at the moment, posted some threads, and I'm arguing a side. Not that it should matter or has any relevance. Come on, guy.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 12, 2012)

Eh, fuck it.

I'll just ask now, not going back through the thread to read.

Quick clarification on the terms mountain and city for abilities like "dimension cut" (Which took out a city apparently) and these shards of curtana shit (which blocked some "water wing" that leveled a mountain).

How large was the city dimension cut destroyed?

What part of japan were the characters in where this water wing busted a mountain?  That'd be nice to know so you can actually give a definative size to the thing.

I'll try judging this shit from there.


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## Xelloss (Jan 12, 2012)

The water wing fall from Gabriel and burst a mountain in Russia, there where calls from before then that they could blow mountains when the angel was using its feathers to attack, but until an actual feather fall from one of its wings its was just a narrative without feats.

The difference here Amae she wasn't at full power, she was fighting 3 hypersonic, 2 of them with 20 mach feats that would need u to be faster than them.

No Hrunting is Knight leader weapon, Carissa use curtana but contrary to KL she can use all patterns while KL just 1 at a time.

So far Amae have (or I think) concede Curtana Carissa is to much, while he think shard version would be a win for Nanoha (and I can see his points its a hard match).


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 12, 2012)

No specific region of russia?

I mean, I could probably find the heights of every mountain and such, but that'd be a pain in the ass.

Overall though, just continue as you were I guess.


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## Xelloss (Jan 12, 2012)

They changed again the phragraph... god damn editors, this is the only feat I can find at the moment.

"Something flew past Carrisa’s face, and the mountain behind her was vaporized. She could not react at all. Misha realized this, and readjusted her aim, moving her palm a little bit. "


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 12, 2012)

Any clue where in Russia the fight takes place?

Doesn't seem like that retranslation is an issue honestly.

Misha sounds russian as it is as a name.


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## Xelloss (Jan 12, 2012)

Its kinda hard to explain but let me try.

The angel posses a body during a even before, this even is refered as "angel fall", the angel assumed the personality of Misha Kreutzev (The real person is Sasha Kreutzev), now angels due to something that happen in heaven are outside their positions Gabriel has the power of Michael and Michael the power of Gabriel, for a angel their name means everything so they can't really change it so easily Michael took the identity of Misha (short of Michael).

Outside that, theres a fictional country but accoriding to the novel its at the border of Russia, consider the little time the angel took it must be close to france (where Carissa and the Maiden where fighting).


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## Amae (Jan 12, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> The difference here Amae she wasn't at full power, she was fighting 3 hypersonic, 2 of them with 20 mach feats that would need u to be faster than them.



It would still make her only at the very least Mach 20.



> No Hrunting is Knight leader weapon, Carissa use curtana but contrary to KL she can use all patterns while KL just 1 at a time.



Yeah, kind of realized that immediately after making my post. 

I kind of stopped even attempting to read To Aru before I got to that point in the story. Can she only use the pattern magic with Curtana Original?



> So far Amae have (or I think) concede Curtana Carissa is to much,



Well .... if Nanoha can avoid being hit by Curtana, she could possibly win with basically the same methods. Staying away from Carissa, using her blaster bits to charge up spells, distracting and then binding her, and immediately shooting for the kill. Pattern Magic would be a bitch if she could use her dimensional cutting to attack Nanoha from all directions no matter where she is. 



> while he think shard version would be a win for Nanoha (and I can see his points its a hard match).



I believe it would be mostly in her favor. 



> No specific region of russia?



Tundra.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 12, 2012)

Sasha, Misha, both sound russian to me.

Between Russia and France for this fictional country?

That's something to work with if I understood you at all.

@Amae - The mountain is in the russian tundra?

Ok.


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 12, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Carissa stabbed the end of Curtana Original into the ground.

The great noise of a shockwave pounded on Kamijou’s ears.

With the second princess in the center, a dome-shaped storm of destruction with a radius of 500 metres erupted.

She had most likely taken the flow of magic power focused on the all dimension severing spell and changed it to a different route. Although the created destructive power was not as high as the power needed to slice through other dimensions, shockwaves were scattered evenly in all directions in the 3 dimensional world.

It was basically an explosion.

The ground was torn up, trees were knocked down, and the large wall of destruction reached Kamijou in an instant.

“Oooooooooooooooohhhhhh!?”

As he yelled, Kamijou held up his right hand.

However, that failed.

The power was both too great and too continuous, so Kamijou’s right hand was not enough to completely negate it. He had lost his memories, so he only had the knowledge, but he was forcibly reminded of Innocentius and Dragon Breath.

A terrible pressure attacked his right hand, he heard the unpleasant noise of his bones creaking, and pain ran up his arm.

Pushed by that power, it took less than 2 seconds for his feet to be lifted from the ground.

Once he was in the air, the rest was simple.

Kamijou’s body flew further up into the air.

The dome-shaped explosion had a radius of 500 metres.




1 of the ways to use Curtana.

Well hard to call, Fiamma at that point created the star of Bethlehem using 40km of solid rock to make it.

Oh and the reason mages don't use fly on ToAru its that theres this spell to kill flying enemies.


----------



## Amae (Jan 12, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> 1 of the ways to use Curtana.


If that's purely an explosion, it's nothing lethal. 

I can see the scenario going either way. If Nanoha can avoid being hit by her hax and play keep away for a bit, she wins. If Carissa can get a hit in with her dimensional hax before that, she wins. 

The other one clearly goes to Nanoha, though. Definitely a lot more often than not, at the very least.



> Oh and the reason mages don't use fly on ToAru its that theres this spell to kill flying enemies.



Oh?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jan 12, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> To Aru's energy system sounds fucked up.
> 
> 3 different sources with no real similarities?



4 possibly. Right Hand users work off of some type of power system too. Like Touma's dragon arm and Fiamma's Holy Right.


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 12, 2012)

Thats not a pure damage the severe all dimensions around here, even if you set binding or attack her, theres no way a attack from nanoha would bypass such a defensive method.



> Kanzaki thought for a second, but then mercilessly activated Peter's interception spell.
> 
> As if a giant metal sheet had struck them from above, the mass of expanded cubes fell in unison. They lost their power and were swept away into the sky by the wind.
> 
> ...


----------



## OS (Jan 12, 2012)

What i miss?  I have been drugged and knocked out till now


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## Amae (Jan 12, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> Thats not a pure damage the severe all dimensions around here, even if you set binding or attack her, theres no way a attack from nanoha would bypass such a defensive method.


It kind of says nothing of the sort from what I'm reading.

I have no clue what to make of the last excerpt you posted. How would it apply to Carissa, anyway?



Original Sin said:


> What i miss?  I have been drugged and knocked out till now



They both win and lose from what I'm gathering. Too early to be sure. What's Curtana's exact range? That answer would help.


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 12, 2012)

Amae said:


> It kind of says nothing of the sort from what I'm reading.
> 
> I have no clue what to make of the last excerpt you posted. How would it apply to Carissa, anyway?
> 
> ...



Range at least a few km how long is london?
Probably I cut the part where it mentiosn its no espace around Carissa sorry.


----------



## OS (Jan 12, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That novel part though required a lot of charge time. You know.


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 12, 2012)

The stab on the floor? it just need a stab I dunno what you mean by a lot of time.


----------



## OS (Jan 12, 2012)

Prior she was spinning in circles for a good amount of time.


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 12, 2012)

Just reread the fragment and that never happen, maybe you still drunk.


----------



## OS (Jan 12, 2012)

I don't get drunk.

I get high


----------



## pikachuwei (Jan 13, 2012)

As Xelloss mentioned, in To-Aru Magicians are restricted from flying because of a basic spell that trolls all magicians, based off a myth I believe of a Saint saying FU to a witch and stopping her from flying. As a result, mages can iirc fly no higher than a really low ceiling of 10 m or something. you'd have to use Telesma or be an esper to fly really.

And to clarify Misha's mountain busting stuff, there are two

One with a projectile "force" attack thing, one with a shard of her wing.

The first one she displayed against Carissa and Maiden of Versailles, it's already been quoted, she lifted her palm, Carissa felt an invisible force pass her and a mountain/hill behind her was vapourised

It's also been stated that she can destroy mountains/hills with her wings, and that is believable, as her main method of attack against ground troops was flying kilometers into the air and crashing straight into the ground with her wings, which reach well over a hundred metres in length

To clarify just how fast Misha can flap her wings, she flapped them so hard that the wind created by one flap was able to deflect tank rounds



> The surviving tanks retreated furiously, as their turrets turned, aimed at the angel and fired. The sound of the cannon fire felt as if though it would shake up one’s inner organs into a mess, and multiple armour piercing explosive rounds rent the air as they flew towards their target.
> Misha didn’t even bother to turn.
> The wings that were like towers of steel flapped once, faster than the speed of sound. With this one supersonic flap, the air was compressed into a wall of wind that knocked the tank rounds away as if they were nothing. Misha did not continue the attack, for she did not adhere to battle tactics concerning victory or defeat.
> “anhwrREPEATnxdp”
> Whoosh! Before the deflected tank rounds exploded, Misha was already 1000 metres above the ground again. With the current situation the troops were in, they would not survive another assault. The surviving troops were scattered around the perimeter of the giant crater that formed from Misha’s first attack. Misha chose her target. And then, just like before, Misha dived towards the ground at horrifying speeds.



Not sure how fast wind you have to make to knock away tank rounds as if they were nothing, or how fast yuo have to flap your wings to make said wind, but I'm guessing very fucking fast.
And although Carissa did not take a Sweep, she tanked Misha crashing straight into her with all her wings with 2 Curtana Shards.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jan 13, 2012)

Oh and an interesting feat for Kanzaki that I found when she fought Misha in Angel Fall.



> Kanzaki spins her body and turns her head around, slicing the water wing behind her with one slash. Seeing this, 3 water wings of the Messenger of God attack from the air, each with a slight time interval.
> Even though there's a time interval, the difference is measured by 1 hundredth of a second. An ordinary person can't really sense this somewhat God-like speed . A human needs 0.18 seconds to process the command from the brain to the fingers, but Kanzaki in the 'Breaker of God' mode can enter superhuman territory within a fixed duration, thus such logic doesn't apply to her. Her blood vessels, muscles, nerves, organs and bones have obtained the 'God Breaker' ability under the spell.
> ZAN! The first water wing of the trio got slashed by Kanzaki's Battojutsu technique.
> Before the next '1 hundredth of a second' arrives, Kanzaki already sheathed the Shichiten Shichitou back and prepares for the next attack. Too easy, Kanzaki smiles in that time, but at that moment,



She is able to react, sheathe and draw her sword within one hundredth of a second, not sure how fast that is, but Carissa powered by Curtana Original or Curtana Second >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kanzaki.


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## OS (Jan 13, 2012)

Ngl. One hundreth of a sec doesn't seem fast at all.


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## Amae (Jan 13, 2012)

With Curtana Original, it seems as though Carissa could win more times than not. This all depends - Nanoha can attack faster than her and pressure her with low scale attacks until her heavy hitters charge. If you can use Blast Calamity's explosion AOE (14-39 km) to scale its destructive capacity, SLB would be stronger than that. All Nanoha would need to do is move around constantly for a couple of seconds and Carissa would get hit by 4 of them simultaneously. Even without the scaling, getting hit by them would more than likely kill her.

With Curtana Second, she loses. 

That's the way I see it.


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## pikachuwei (Jan 13, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> Ngl. One hundreth of a sec doesn't seem fast at all.



Kanzaki was doing all that casually though, and she was reacting to and cutting through dozens if not hundreds of Misha's water wing attacks, which were coming after each other in intervals of a hundredth of a second.

and as I quoted, Misha can swing them fast enough to blow away tank shells with the generated wind.

Carissa > Kanzaki.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 13, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> Ngl. One hundreth of a sec doesn't seem fast at all.



It isn't.

Just makes her movements slower than sound.  Possibly supersonic by the way the feat was being described.

Doesn't matter how fast those water wing things were traveling, the important part is that kanzaki person's movements.

The wings are irrelevant.


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## OS (Jan 13, 2012)

She is faster though. She has reacted to lightning before.


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## Amae (Jan 13, 2012)

pikachuwei said:


> As Xelloss mentioned, in To-Aru Magicians are restricted from flying because of a basic spell that trolls all magicians, based off a myth I believe of a Saint saying FU to a witch and stopping her from flying. As a result, mages can iirc fly no higher than a really low ceiling of 10 m or something. you'd have to use Telesma or be an esper to fly really.



I guess this would only matter if Carissa is capable of using this spell and you would have to prove it would work against Nanoha. Nanoha's flight is enabled by her CW-AEC00X Fortress, which is capable of countering magic-neutralizing effects like the Anti Magic Field and Zero Effect.

Can someone prove Carissa can hit Nanoha within the seconds it would take her to charge her attacks? We can reach a conclusion depending on the answer.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 13, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> She is faster though. She has reacted to lightning before.



How far did the lightning travel in comparison to her own movements?

Reacting to lightning doesn't need massively hypersonic anything.

Willy's calced a hypothetical "lightning timing" feat to be 20 m/s for instance recently.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 13, 2012)

> Willy's calced a hypothetical "lightning timing" feat to be 20 m/s for instance recently.


can I see that calc ? ^^

for science


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## Xelloss (Jan 13, 2012)

The spell is mean to counter flying, Nanoha has been flying since got know when by magic and yes pretty much all magicians use it, normally no magician fly due to this spell the only people who use flying are witches and they doit mainly vs knights (superhuman but no magic).

It was true lighting sadly I can't help u there as I havent read that specific novel.

Curtana blast have no charge time beyond move the sword to produce the cut, Kanzaki can do 100 cuts using Battojutsu, and she is weaker than KL, and KL is blitzed by Carissa.

So if you want to low end she can spam 100 dimensional cuts in 1 second.


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## Amae (Jan 13, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> The spell is mean to counter flying, Nanoha has been flying since got know when by magic and yes pretty much all magicians use it, normally no magician fly due to this spell the only people who use flying are witches and they doit mainly vs knights (superhuman but no magic).



Again, Nanoha's flight is now enabled by her CW-AEC00X Fortress, which is capable of countering magic-neutralizing effects like the Anti Magic Field and Zero Effect. Anti Magilink Field is a field type magic that suppresses the linking of magical energy (e.g. between the mage and their Device), effectively preventing any other spells from being cast. It even made flight impossible. Prove that spell is superior.



> Curtana blast have no charge time beyond move the sword to produce the cut



I know and never said it did.



> So if you want to low end she can spam 100 dimensional cuts in 1 second.



That doesn't answer my question at all.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 13, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> can I see that calc ? ^^
> 
> for science



I think it might have been in a VM.

It basically revolved around cloud to ground lightning and the meter or so of movement hypothetical character A made IIRC.



Xelloss said:


> It was true lighting sadly I can't help u there as I havent read that specific novel.



Not an issue.

OS probably knows where the feat is.

Given he mentioned it.

This one I'm definately curious about though.  Don't remember who she was put up against in YYH, but at the time the people in the thread were calling for a blitz due to that feat.

I didn't question it, but since then we've had shit like SDK's feat calced.  I now hold massive skepticism towards lightning timing needing to be amazingly fast.


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## Xelloss (Jan 13, 2012)

Thats not a deffense vs spells, people still hit by binding spells despite the system so the point is null.

It also worked on this Link removed.

I think it does answer your question it means at low end it takes her 10 milliseconds to fire a dimensional blast.


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## OS (Jan 13, 2012)

I actually don't know where it exactly is but I'll look for it. I too have heard multiple time from readers she has done it so bear with me if i am wrong.

Though Gunha has punched lightning . Though it's canonocity is in question


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## Xelloss (Jan 13, 2012)

That novel is canon as per NT 1, its on the author notes at the end of the novel.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 13, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> I actually don't know where it exactly is but I'll look for it. I too have heard multiple time from readers she has done it so bear with me if i am wrong.



No problem.



> Though Gunha has punched lightning . Though it's canonocity is in question



Couldn't tell you, given I don't read.

Do know his fist only needs to travel 0.8 meters in relation to whatever the lightning did though.


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## Amae (Jan 13, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> Thats not a deffense vs spells,



This is a MAGIC spell, correct? AMF is achieved by ... wait for it, magic.



> people still hit by binding spells despite the system so the point is null.



Huh? This is a recently acquired device, smart guy. Countering magic neutralization effects have shit all to do with being caught by binding spells, by the way.



> It also worked on this Link removed.



So?



> I think it does answer your question it means at low end it takes her 10 milliseconds to fire a dimensional blast.



It doesn't. Nanoha is Mach 26+, Carisssa is Mach 20+. If Nanoha is up in the air moving hundreds of meters in the air, coupled with the speed advantage, reacting to her attacks wouldn't be a problem. My question was can Carissa tag Nanoha before her attacks are charged (which would be within seconds). If not, she dies. It's doubtful she can.


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## Xelloss (Jan 13, 2012)

Then explain me how biddings still work, ow many damage still work, how magic spores work, and a lot of other things, also while we are it, it fails to counter the mana drain effect also it consumes a lot more energy than the normal system.

Carrisa still has precognition, be flying actually make u a easier target.

Her defenses make her ignore all of nanoha attacks and they don't have feats to pasa a dimensional space, she can also use the after mass as a shield.


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## Amae (Jan 13, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> Then explain me how biddings still work, ow many damage still work, how magic spores work, and a lot of other things, also while we are it, it fails to counter the mana drain effect also it consumes a lot more energy than the normal system.



You have no idea what you're talking about. Countering *magic neutralization effects* have nothing to do with binding spells and the other shit you brought up. This MAGIC spell disables a Mage's flight (flight achieved by magic), so what is it doing? Tell me.



> Carrisa still has precognition, be flying actually make u a easier target.



They makes little sense. How would her precognition (you know, the thing that enables her to fight and react at her current speed) help in attacking an enemy that is faster than her? 



> Her defenses make her ignore all of nanoha attacks and they don't have feats to pasa a dimensional space, she can also use the after mass as a shield.



That wouldn't help when the blasts are faster than she is and it isn't as if her defense is constantly up, she actually has to stab the ground with her sword and it isn't instantaneous. That would also be difficult to do when her limbs are restricted.


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## Xelloss (Jan 13, 2012)

She has a passive defense, she was doing that just for the giggles to counter imagen breaker, which destroy any supernatural item, magic, spell, barrier.

Precognition works by letting you know what would happen, they use it to react before the event happen if you miss the point here then I can't help you.

Again she is bringing Nanoha down, the antimagic diffusion field is to prevent it, it makes magic continue working how in hell this would counter magic? So you basically saying "hey this system make to counter antimagic settings also counter magic" which would mean nanoha would be complety useless as she won't have magic.

You know this is repeating arguments unless u bring a new point I don't see why continue this, is you so want to put it on the wiki say its a contested match and be done with it.


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## Amae (Jan 13, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> She has a passive defense, she was doing that just for the giggles to counter imagen breaker, which destroy any supernatural item, magic, spell, barrier.



She has a passive defense that puts a impenetrable dimensional space ("they don't have feats to pass a dimensional space") around her at all times? Is that what you're trying to saying? If not, you would have to prove she can survive 4 city level attacks hitting her at once.



> Precognition works by letting you know what would happen, they use it to react before the event happen if you miss the point here then I can't help you.



If you're missing my point ... Look: 

Her precognition makes her capable of reacting and fighting at Mach X. Following? This thing she's fighting is moving at Mach Z. Even if she knows something is going to happen, if she doesn't have the speed to successfully keep up with the thing that's moving at Mach Z and react, her precognition isn't particularly useful in that situation. Not particularly difficult to grasp.



> So you basically saying "hey this system make to counter antimagic settings also counter magic" which would mean nanoha would be complety useless as she won't have magic.



You're beyond dense. That's obviously not the case, so why even post such an attempt to portray my argument so stupidly? You should work on that. The burden of proof is on you to prove it'll work. Being able to fly only 10 meters in the air isn't exactly a hindrance either in this case ...



> You know this is repeating arguments unless u bring a new point I don't see why continue this, is you so want to put it on the wiki say its a contested match and be done with it.



I desire a concession. Never thought about putting it on the wiki. Is it agreed Carissa loses with just the shards?


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## Xelloss (Jan 13, 2012)

Amae said:


> She has a passive defense that puts a impenetrable dimensional space ("they don't have feats to pass a dimensional space") around her at all times? Is that what you're trying to saying? If not, you would have to prove she can survive 4 city level attacks hitting her at once.



Yes the freaking defense is a passive buff of Curtana (she lack this on curtana shards), you actually have to prove she can fire those before eating 100 dimensional cuts in the second (and the takes more than this normally to chage)



> If you're missing my point ... Look:
> 
> Her precognition makes her capable of reacting and fighting at Mach X. Following? This thing she's fighting is moving at Mach Z. Even if she knows something is going to happen, if she doesn't have the speed to successfully keep up with the thing that's moving at Mach Z and react, her precognition isn't particularly useful in that situation. Not particularly difficult to grasp.



Slower reactions are capable of keep someone alive, yes her body isn't fast enough (as we don't have prof otherwise) that still tell her whats going to happen nanoha has no counter to this ability.




> You're beyond dense. That's obviously not the case, so why even post such an attempt to portray my argument so stupidly? You should work on that. The burden of proof is on you to prove it'll work. Being able to fly only 10 meters in the air isn't exactly a hindrance either in this case ...



The spell slam you and kill you, thats the point of it, its not to negate your flying, the enemy she used was dropped around 11km from the air, I don't see your point, you trying to pass a "support magic field" that allow them to ignore a magic nullification field as field that would negate magic, what do I have to prove that you are trying to use something on the opposite way its suppose to work?

Yes I do support Carissa have horrible odds with shards.


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## Amae (Jan 13, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> you actually have to prove she can fire those before eating 100 dimensional cuts in the second (and the takes more than this normally to chage)



All she has to do is create distance between them. Unless you're implying Carissa can kill her within seconds (the blaster bits will preform the spells, Nanoha doesn't have to do anything but move), that's all she needs to do before binding/restricting (she was able to tangle up a Mach 26+ mage and take her by surprise with them) and then immediately firing her attacks. Even if she can break out of them, she doesn't have time to defend herself and the beams are Mach 26+.



> The spell slam you and kill you, thats the point of it, its not to negate your flying,



Work on your clarification skills, dawg. If it all it does is slam her, there's not much to say.



> you trying to pass a "support magic field" that allow them to ignore a magic nullification field as field that would negate magic,



Never said she had a support magic field that allows her to ignore magic nullification. Work on those reading comprehension skills, dawg.



> Yes I do support Carissa have horrible odds with shards.



Agreed.


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