# Doflamingo vs Katakuri



## Ruse (Feb 3, 2018)

Location: Mirror world
Intel: full on both sides 

How far can Doffy push dogtooth?


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## Luke (Feb 3, 2018)

Lower end of high difficulty win for Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MO (Feb 3, 2018)

lower end of mid diff or low diff. He has nothing  that can deal with Fs. Kata can just trap him in Mochi and stab him. Katakuri has many ways to deal with him.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## zoro_santoryu (Feb 3, 2018)

higher end of mid difficulty

Reactions: Agree 1


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## savior2005 (Feb 3, 2018)

mid diff at most imo. katakuri has superior stats and superior haki. infact, i can see this fight going like g4 luffy vs doffy, with katakuri ragdolling doffy. the only reason i say mid diff is cuz g4 luffy ragdolled an injured doffy, and doffy's attacks had no affect on g4 luffy.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 3, 2018)

Katakuri wins, lower end of high difficulty. His CoO helps to avoid a lot of Katakuri's more outrageous attacks, and he has superior haki. He's not as fast, but when he can close the distance to get a hit he should deal a pretty good amount of damage.


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## Lord Stark (Feb 3, 2018)

Lower end of high diff sounds about right.  Doffy is a beast and will be able to last long, but Katakuri's CoO and damage output will eventually put him down.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 3, 2018)

savior2005 said:


> mid diff at most imo. katakuri has superior stats and superior haki. infact, i can see this fight going like g4 luffy vs doffy, with katakuri ragdolling doffy. the only reason i say mid diff is cuz g4 luffy ragdolled an injured doffy, and doffy's attacks had no affect on g4 luffy.



The anime version of Luffy vs Doflamingo makes Doflamingo look low tier compared to G4, I'll admit that. But in the manga, Doflamingo actually does a lot better, takes a lot less hits, and has only one attack (the kick) that G4 Luffy completely no sells, and thats more because Luffy's haki in G4 retains its rubber like qualities. Once Doflamingo used awakening, Luffy actually had to dodge and go on the defensive for a good while. Then headbutt, bazooka, and KKG after another couple chapters.

Katakuri and Doflamingo both got ragdolled by G4 and were incapable of blocking head on attacks. Katakuri used his CoO to see attacks and his fruit to parry some attacks from the side. He admittedly did better, but because he had the technique and the literal foresight to counterattack. He wasn't physically strong enough to stop G4, or even pass its defenses. He aims for areas that aren't covered by haki when he fights G4.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Kylo Ren (Feb 3, 2018)

Katakuri wins - higher end of mid difficulty


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 3, 2018)

If Cracker is > Katakuri (out of merit of Cracker's true power being hidden), then Katakuri wins with some difficulty.
If Katakuri > Cracker, then Katakuri wins no diff.

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Optimistic 2 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Gohara (Feb 4, 2018)

Lord Katakuri wins with high to extremely high (closer to high than extremely high) difficulty in my opinion.


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## Raiden34 (Feb 4, 2018)

Mid-high.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 5, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> If Cracker is > Katakuri (out of merit of Cracker's true power being hidden), then Katakuri wins with some difficulty.
> If Katakuri > Cracker, then Katakuri wins no diff.



Katakuri can't even no diff Sanji lol

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 2


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## Nekochako (Feb 5, 2018)

Katakuri mid diffish.


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## Gianfi (Feb 5, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> The anime version of Luffy vs Doflamingo makes Doflamingo look low tier compared to G4, I'll admit that. But in the manga, Doflamingo actually does a lot better, takes a lot less hits, and has only one attack (the kick) that G4 Luffy completely no sells, and thats more because Luffy's haki in G4 retains its rubber like qualities. Once Doflamingo used awakening, Luffy actually had to dodge and go on the defensive for a good while. Then headbutt, bazooka, and KKG after another couple chapters.
> 
> Katakuri and Doflamingo both got ragdolled by G4 and were incapable of blocking head on attacks. Katakuri used his CoO to see attacks and his fruit to parry some attacks from the side. He admittedly did better, but because he had the technique and the literal foresight to counterattack. He wasn't physically strong enough to stop G4, or even pass its defenses. He aims for areas that aren't covered by haki when he fights G4.


When was Kata ragdolled by G4 ? On topic, Kata mid diffs

Reactions: Winner 2


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## trance (Feb 5, 2018)

doffy gets mid diffed


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 5, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Katakuri can't even no diff Sanji lol


Vergo no diff's Sanji, so did Doflamingo, but you don't think Katakuri can? What?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Shrike (Feb 5, 2018)

High.


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## Emperor Whitebeard (Feb 6, 2018)

Lower end of mid diff is the most Doflamingo can push Katakuri. He'll have to go against someone who can tag G4 and send him flying, while as Doffy was having issues even reacting to G4. Add Katakuri's advanced CoO into the mix and things are pretty bad for Dofla.


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## Sherlōck (Feb 6, 2018)

Doflamingo doesn't have any answer for Kata's advanced CoA & CoO.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 6, 2018)

Total warrior said:


> When was Kata ragdolled by G4 ? On topic, Kata mid diffs



Willfully ignoring or did you not actually read the chapter they fought?

Chapter 884, sends him flying around a couple of times. As a matter of fact, Katakuri begins his counter attack by bouncing off of his head after getting sent flying. Pretty much everybody Luffy has hit with a KG dead on has gotten broken (Cracker) or launched (Katakuri, Doflamingo), except BM.



PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Vergo *no diff's Sanji*, so did Doflamingo, *but you don't think Katakuri can?* What?



Think? Know. He literally, canonically failed at trying to no diff Sanji.
Interesting power levels you have going on. Katakuri can no diff Doflamingo, meaning he needs only the most minimum of effort to win. And somehow Doflamingo is still strong enough to no diff Vergo, who can no diff Sanji.

That's 3 people leaps and bounds beyond even each other, so surely Katakuri is eons above the weakest, Sanji?

So how did a completely surprised and off guard Sanji dodge the top tier future-sight man who prides himself on efficiency and not missing? Who can, again, see into the future? Isn't Sanji fodder for Vergo? Do you think Vergo could've dodged that?

I wonder how the Katakuri fanclub is going to take it when he finally loses. Will you all convince yourself Luffy must be at Akainu's level if he can win? It would fall in line with the usual practice of downplaying every character and action in the world that makes Katakuri look less than Roger level.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 6, 2018)

Emperor Whitebeard said:


> Lower end of mid diff is the most Doflamingo can push Katakuri. He'll have to go against someone who can tag G4 and send him flying, while as Doffy was having issues even reacting to G4. Add Katakuri's advanced CoO into the mix and things are pretty bad for Dofla.



G4 Luffy was actively engaging Katakuri, only reason he tagged him. Base Luffy is fast enough to dodge Katakuri attacks, even with future sight. Also, he hits G4 Luffy on exposed skin and deflects his attacks from the side with his mochi in combination with his CoO so he knows the angle. 

He has superior haki stats to Doflamingo, but he was just as helpless as Doflamingo was against G4, the difference is he had his CoO to use to see attacks, weaknesses, and counter.


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## MO (Feb 6, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Willfully ignoring or did you not actually read the chapter they fought?
> 
> Chapter 884, sends him flying around a couple of times. As a matter of fact, Katakuri begins his counter attack by bouncing off of his head after getting sent flying. Pretty much everybody Luffy has hit with a KG dead on has gotten broken (Cracker) or launched (Katakuri, Doflamingo), except BM.


that only happened because his CoO was not working at the moment.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Zoro20 (Feb 6, 2018)

Kata  lower end of  mid diff


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 6, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Willfully ignoring or did you not actually read the chapter they fought?
> 
> Chapter 884, sends him flying around a couple of times. As a matter of fact, Katakuri begins his counter attack by bouncing off of his head after getting sent flying. Pretty much everybody Luffy has hit with a KG dead on has gotten broken (Cracker) or launched (Katakuri, Doflamingo), except BM.
> 
> ...


He shot a bean at him not expecting Sanji to be able to dodge.

Doflamingo isn't strong enough to no diff Vergo, Doflamingo can no diff Pica, Trebol, and Diamante, but Vergo is a mid or high diff fight for him.

Literally Katakuri went "oh, I better just shoot him in the head" not knowing Sanji was a kenbunshoku specialist. In the end if you saw Katakuri vs Sanji though, it wouldn't even be a hard fight, Judge was mid diffing him not long ago.

Vergo is a buso specialist, not a kenbunshoku specialist, he could tank it but not predict it was coming as well as Sanji. But yeah, trying to use that Sanji feat is pretty silly, you don't see people trying to say chopper can handle big mom cuz he ealt with a super casual assault of hers. Katakuri if he faced off against Sanji would be an extremely casual win.

Katakuri fanclub? I think that Perospero, Compote, Streusen, and possibly Cracker are stronger than Katakuri. Cracker by merit of his bounty being representative of his strength inside a single biscuit soldier and not his true self with an army of biscuit soldiers. I don't see how Katakuri can possibly beat Cracker unless he gets a lucky hit in and I see the sheer speed of Cracker coupled with his reasonably superior buso and his army of g3 leveled biscuit soldiers overwhelming katakuri.

Doesn't change the fact that the gap between a top yonkou commander and someone like even zoro (let alone sanji) is insanely huge. Doflamingo is more akin to Snack than he is Cracker or Katakuri. 

Luffy is going to defeat Katakuri by mastering future sight.

Katakuri is a boring character outside of his love for sweets, his physical imperfections, and his insecurity around said imperfections.


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## Kylo Ren (Feb 7, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> and possibly Cracker are stronger than Katakuri. Cracker by merit of his bounty being representative of his strength inside a single biscuit soldier and not his true self with an army of biscuit soldiers. I don't see how Katakuri can possibly beat Cracker unless he gets a lucky hit in and I see the sheer speed of Cracker coupled with his reasonably superior buso and his army of g3 leveled biscuit soldiers overwhelming katakuri.


It's already been said, Katakuri is the strongest Sweet Commander and Cracker Coa is inferior to Katakuri Coa 



DoctorLaw said:


> He has superior haki stats to Doflamingo, *but he was just as helpless as Doflamingo was against G4*, the difference is he had his CoO to use to see attacks, weaknesses, and counter.


I know you are very knowledgeable about OP but whenever I saw you post this I feel your bias against Katakuri.


DoctorLaw said:


> Chapter 884, sends him flying around a couple of times. As a matter of fact, Katakuri begins his counter attack by bouncing off of his head after getting sent flying. Pretty much everybody Luffy has hit with a KG dead on has gotten broken (Cracker) or launched (Katakuri, Doflamingo), except BM.


the problem with this is you don't continue what happen after Katakuri bounce back and recover his Coo. It's another one sided match between Luffy Vs. Katakuri.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 7, 2018)

Don King said:


> It's already been said, Katakuri is the strongest Sweet Commander and Cracker Coa is inferior to Katakuri Coa
> 
> 
> I know you are very knowledgeable about OP but whenever I saw you post this I feel your bias against Katakuri.
> ...



You know what? I'll be honest, I have a bias against Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Emperor Whitebeard (Feb 7, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> G4 Luffy was actively engaging Katakuri, only reason he tagged him. Base Luffy is fast enough to dodge Katakuri attacks, even with future sight. Also, he hits G4 Luffy on exposed skin and deflects his attacks from the side with his mochi in combination with his CoO so he knows the angle.
> 
> He has superior haki stats to Doflamingo, but he was just as helpless as Doflamingo was against G4, the difference is he had his CoO to use to see attacks, weaknesses, and counter.


Katakuri already tagged G2 Luffy in the earlier parts of the fight, when Luffy was fresh. It's never implied he can't connect with Base Luffy. He missed one or two attacks but also successfully connected a lot more. Only reason Luffy is still up is because of his sheer tenacity and willpower, which was highlighted by the snipers too, who claimed that Katakuri wasn't actually having a hard time. Luffy simply won't stand down.

Doflamingo was having trouble even keeping up with G4. Katakuri was trying to regain his calm so he wasn't in his 100%. And his defense was still better than Doffy's by miles. He was only knocked back a few meters and actually was more concerned on not letting his back hit the ground, bouncing with head. Once he regained composure he immediately overwhelmed Luffy.

Doffy can't really harm Katakuri. If he can tank G4 hits with minimal injuries, then Doflamingo sure as hell isn't doing anything. Not that it would matter anyway since he'll have a hard time even connecting with Katakuri.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 7, 2018)

Don King said:


> It's already been said, Katakuri is the strongest Sweet Commander and Cracker Coa is inferior to Katakuri Coa
> 
> 
> I know you are very knowledgeable about OP but whenever I saw you post this I feel your bias against Katakuri.
> ...


Nope...........

Cracker's CoA was stronger, Katakuri redirecting a kong gun away doesn't put him as stronger buso than Cracker. Cracker was able to piece Luffy's buso while he was supercharged in g4 and Katakuri has just kind of clashed with it and parried it.
Cracker had his bounty because the marines didn't even know about the real Cracker and thought he was the single biscuit clone. You also are kind of ignoring the fact that Cracker is Cracker + an army of g3 leveled biscuit soldiers.

Yes CoO is strong but he's also shown to be outright unable to dodge certain attacks due to physical limitations, the biscuit soldiers and Cracker have enough powerful attacks flying at Katakuri that he'd be unable to effectively dodge even though he is aware of what's coming. Also Katakuri has been shown to be overall unable to use high level buso and kenbun at once. This means that if he uses his buso on a biscuit soldier or something, he'd leave himself vulnerable since he doesn't just have to clash, he has to clash + avoid other enemies. Cracker can respawn biscuit soldiers as well. We have to remember that biscuit soldiers can parry g3 hits, it takes kong gun leveled attacks to crack their shields (which they can have multiple of) and another to crack the biscuit soldiers that can be re-spawned, or mended if not eaten/absolutely destroyed.

Then you factor in that Cracker is just faster than Katakuri.

Katakuri can dish out more damage to a singular target, kenbunshoku, and has awakening.
Cracker has superior buso, speed, and he has an army of g3 leveled biscuit soldiers that would effectively counter future sight.

Biscuit soldiers aren't just defense either, they can drill pretzel sword attacks down on Katakuri to do some real damage while he's attacking or avoiding another.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## savior2005 (Feb 7, 2018)

No way was Katakuri as helpless as doffy. some of u ppl forget that the g4 luffy that fought kata was prolly stronger than the one who fought doffy. and kata was losing at first cuz he lost his composure. after he regained it, he started to fight on relatively even grounds with g4 luffy.


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## Kylo Ren (Feb 7, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Nope...........
> 
> Cracker's CoA was stronger, Katakuri redirecting a kong gun away doesn't put him as stronger buso than Cracker. Cracker was able to piece Luffy's buso while he was supercharged in g4 and Katakuri has just kind of clashed with it and parried it.
> Cracker had his bounty because the marines didn't even know about the real Cracker and thought he was the single biscuit clone. You also are kind of ignoring the fact that Cracker is Cracker + an army of g3 leveled biscuit soldiers.
> ...


Here's my basis why I said Katakuri Coa is stronger while on Cracker case we only get a comment by Luffy.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 7, 2018)

Emperor Whitebeard said:


> Katakuri already tagged G2 Luffy in the earlier parts of the fight, when Luffy was fresh. It's never implied he can't connect with Base Luffy. He missed one or two attacks but also successfully connected a lot more. Only reason Luffy is still up is because of his sheer tenacity and willpower, which was highlighted by the snipers too, who claimed that Katakuri wasn't actually having a hard time. Luffy simply won't stand down.
> 
> Doflamingo was having trouble even keeping up with G4.* Katakuri was trying to regain his calm so he wasn't in his 100%. And his defense was still better than Doffy's by miles*. *He was only knocked back a few meters* and actually was more concerned on not letting his back hit the ground, bouncing with head. Once he regained composure he immediately overwhelmed Luffy.
> 
> *Doffy can't really harm Katakuri*. If he can tank G4 hits with minimal injuries, then Doflamingo sure as hell isn't doing anything. Not that it would matter anyway since he'll have a hard time even connecting with Katakuri.



This is exactly why I tend to debate Katakuri topics so often. Almost everything is shaped to make him look better on this forum. 

G4 Luffy completely tossed Katakuri back. Katakuri is 16 feet tall, and in one panel his legs are completely in the air with him being thrown back violently. It wasn't a few meters.

Are you saying Doflamingo can't even harm Katakuri if he doesn't evade and just blocks? Doflamingo can turn an entire city into strings that are deadly enough to force G4 Luffy to dodge.  

And I wasn't saying he could dodge all Kata's attacks, just saying injured and cornered Luffy is capable of dodging his attacks consistently to the point that its actually brought up by Katakuri out of frustration.

He also took the 3 or 4 hits he got about as well as Doflamingo took his first G4 attacks. Both got launched, both bled, both took a minute to compose themselves and force G4 to back off. And Doflamingo was literally dying while doing this. Katakuri is a monster for sure, and definitely stronger than Doflamingo, but he didn't those hits any better than Doflamingo did.

What does Katakuri's CoO have to do with his CoA and physical strength for tanking? CoO wouldn't have allowed his blocking to go up to the point that he can stop G4.

Doflamingo was dying and fought a 2v1 against two high tier supernovas, funny how that is never brought up, but Katakuri losing his ability due to him being shook means we can completely dismiss anything negative that happened to him during that time.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 7, 2018)

savior2005 said:


> No way was Katakuri as helpless as doffy. some of u ppl forget that the g4 luffy that fought kata was prolly stronger than the one who fought doffy. and kata was losing at first cuz he lost his composure. after he regained it, he started to fight on relatively even grounds with g4 luffy.



G4 has gotten stronger, but that isn't the reason why Katakuri couldn't stop it.

Some of you guys forget G4 has always been shown wrecking shit.

 Luffy went from still doing underwhelming to an injured Doflamingo, to completely overpowering him whenever he could get a hit in.

Cracker had no trouble with Luffy really until G4 came out, and as soon as it did it blew straight through Cracker's strong base defense and haki.

G4 Luffy manages to hit Katakuri and surprise, he can't stop its physical power anymore than anyone else.

As for him being as helpless as Doffy, I specifically mean in terms of physical ability. Neither one is strong enough to stop G4 close range, Katakuri used his CoO and DF to counter. I'll give him points for coming back and even landing good hits, but Doflamingo also went on a counterattack, though more to deter G4 from punching his shit in. 

If Katakuri losing his CoO is justification for him catching a brief G4 ass whooping, then Doflamingo losing his small intestine should count for something right? 

Doflamingo got nerfed waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay harder than Katakuri did, but we can't give Doffy the benefit of the doubt?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kylo Ren (Feb 7, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> This is exactly why I tend to debate Katakuri topics so often. Almost everything is shaped to make him look better on this forum.


I think because currently he is the main bad guy and it's not that we discard what Doffy's condition or what he did, what he can do, It just Katakuri is portrayed better by Oda.

Even Luffy thought Katakuri is invincible for a moment.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 7, 2018)

Don King said:


> Here's my basis why I said Katakuri Coa is stronger while on Cracker case we only get a comment by Luffy.


G4 supercharges Luffy's haki beyond his normal limits, it's why he can't really use haki for a while afterwards.

Katakuri has overpowered luffy's regular busoshoku haki and redirected/matched g4's haki output, Cracker has successfully cut through g4 supercharged haki.


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## Kylo Ren (Feb 7, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> G4 supercharges Luffy's haki beyond his normal limits, it's why he can't really use haki for a while afterwards.


No... this is before he goes G4. and I think give Katakuri a swords or his trident and clean hit like that, he can replicate what Cracker did.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 8, 2018)

Don King said:


> No... this is before he goes G4. and I think give Katakuri a swords or his trident and clean hit like that, he can replicate what Cracker did.


Katakuri is the kenbunshoku
Cracker the busoshoku


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## MO (Feb 8, 2018)

there isn't a single thing doffy can do to katakuri other than be his punching bag.

Reactions: Winner 3 | Disagree 3


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Feb 8, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Vergo no diff's Sanji, so did Doflamingo, but you don't think Katakuri can? What?



to be fair,sanji's body was already heavily worn out and damaged by caesar,sanji vs vergo was an unfair fight

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dr. White (Feb 8, 2018)

MO said:


> there isn't a single thing doffy can do to katakuri other than be his punching bag.


Nope.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Dr. White (Feb 8, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Doflamingo wasn´t able to put down base Luffy either. And on the contrary Katakuri fared much better against G4 than Doffy who just got steamrolled by it and couldn´t do more than stall. He even played dead ffs just so Luffy would stop attacking him. Doffy´s devil fruit usage is a bit better yeah but he doesn´t have more aoe. He creates just as much strings as Kata does with awakened mochi and what it lacks in lethality Kata makes up for with the ability to pin you down and suffocate you. Parasite is cool I´ll give you that one.
> 
> I´ll say Kata wins this fight with high-diff.


- because of plot? Base luffy only ever put up a fight after gamma knife...before that dofla was literally hog tying him, and even relegated him to fight his clone. 
- once again, G4 got the drop on dofla by taking him by surprise and also due to the effects of gamma knife. And dofla ate multiple hits from g4 despite his injuries.
- nah, dodla clearly creates more string with his awakening, and can even do so without awakening via his ability to use birdcage and nation wide parasite like he did when taking over dressrosa.


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## Dr. White (Feb 8, 2018)

Although yeah I agree Katakuri with high diff

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## tejas8055 (Feb 8, 2018)

Katakuri mid diff. He blew G4 Luffy lights out with his punch just like G4 Luffy blew Doffy lights out.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 8, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> to be fair,sanji's body was already heavily worn out and damaged by caesar,sanji vs vergo was an unfair fight


Usopp took the same attack and was fine. Vergo went at Sanji using only kicks when that's not his actual style of combat, Vergo wasn't using busoshoku even though specializing in it, Vergo went at Sanji without rokushiki, and Vergo also was more casual.

A single kick broke Sanji's leg bone and the fight was ultimately in Vergo's favor heavily even though it only lasted like 2 and a half pages. Sanji even got 2 free hits and it did nothing, both to Vergo's face. Vergo trounced Sanji easily. 

It was unfair because Vergo is stronger than Zoro and Zoro is stronger than Sanji.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 8, 2018)

tejas8055 said:


> Katakuri mid diff. He blew G4 Luffy lights out with his punch just like G4 Luffy blew Doffy lights out.



He punches him directly on his scar, where he hasn't covered himself with haki. It was a pretty strong hit though, I'll admit that. I think we should reserve some judgment for when Katakuri actually clashes fist to fist with a G4 attack before we put his strength at levels that can probably rival BM.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 8, 2018)

Don King said:


> No... this is before he goes G4. and I think give Katakuri a swords or his trident and clean hit like that, he can replicate what Cracker did.



Yeah, I've always seen G4 as a drastic raise in base stats like his forms preskip boosted his stats, and he just integrates his regular haki into this stronger body. 

If Katakuri would've had the same opportunity to cut G4's arm, he would've taken it off. Katakuri has been called the best and perfect by his siblings in everything, so its hard to imagine he isn't better at CoA than his brother.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 8, 2018)

MO said:


> there isn't a single thing doffy can do to katakuri other than be his punching bag.



Doflamingo's DF has been easily the most versatile in the series outside of Luffy's. He can create a strong clone of himself that can use attacks, he can use a nigh unbreakable cage to trap a country, he can turn cities into strings so sharp they can slice someone as strong as G4 Luffy, too many other things to list. Most of his powerful moves are ranged attacks, and Katakuri is more of a close range fighter outside of his awakening, which someone like Doflamingo should be able to avoid with flight.

He has numerous options to hurt Katakuri with ridiculous AoE attacks, and will probably be able to do so. Katakuri will still win though, high diff, because he'll have to chase Doflamingo around beat him up/stab him while dodging his awakening. I don't see Katakuri being too damaged, but it will be difficult, and if he loses focus it could push him to very high diff.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## GoldenHeart (Feb 8, 2018)

Katakuri is literally G4 Luffy but with better CoA, CoO, awakening and no time limit.
How is Doflamingo supposed to do anything here

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 8, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Yeah, I've always seen G4 as a drastic raise in base stats like his forms preskip boosted his stats, and he just integrates his regular haki into this stronger body.
> 
> If Katakuri would've had the same opportunity to cut G4's arm, he would've taken it off. Katakuri has been called the best and perfect by his siblings in everything, so its hard to imagine he isn't better at CoA than his brother.


Katakuri is the kenbunshoku specialist
Cracker is the busoshoku specialist
Smoothie probably focuses on devil fruit mastery with average for her power buso and kenbunshoku

Cracker's buso has been shown to be more impressive than Katakuri, though Katakuri has awakening while Cracker seemingly does now. Honestly I think Cracker is stronger overall than Katakuri, and at worst they are around equal. Cracker was stronger than the world thought he was is all.

I think people looking up to Katakuri is more a cool calm and "hot" thing, like no one saw his bottom face but the moment they did they were disgusted and couldn't' stop laughing. He was the "perfect" older brother while Perospero was the conniving and not so pretty brother who had an oversized tongue and mouth, and a pointy big nose.

Also the thing about never "sitting down" and "never getting hit down" playing a part as well.

Cracker is arguably a sadist, Snack is potentially a weeaboo like zoro with his asian garb shadowed out, Smoothie is lazy, Perospero is sadistic and gloats/talks too much, Compote is obese, so yeah.

Not to mention Perospero and Katakuri are the oldest sons, Cracker is what, 15th son or something?

Katakuri wouldn't have done shit as far as taking G4 Luffy's arm off. I'd argue that Cracker would beat Katakuri.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 9, 2018)

GoldenHeart said:


> Katakuri is literally G4 Luffy but with better CoA, CoO, awakening and no time limit.
> How is Doflamingo supposed to do anything here



The only thing you have right there is Katakuri has better CoO and awakening. G4 Luffy is stronger than Katakuri is, Katakuri used his CoO and intelligence to overcome G4, not superior haki/strength. 

Also you are aware that Luffy has been fighting Katakuri for about 9 hours without G4 right? Unless Luffy doubled his base strength, Doflamingo is > regular Luffy. Someone a good deal stronger than Luffy without G4 will do even less than he can with a better moveset for this matchup?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 14, 2018)

Katakuri low diffs

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Canute87 (Feb 14, 2018)

katakuri is superior to flamingo in every way  but swag.


Flamingo doesn't stand a chance.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Neutral 1


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 16, 2018)

Katakuri manhandles

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ghost_of_Gashir (Feb 16, 2018)

Katakuri doesn't even get touched by Doflajobber.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 5


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 16, 2018)

After reading the latest chapter, I'm just going to revise my original answer. While I don't think Katakuri stomps or beats Doflamingo with ease, he has demonstrated twice now that he can adapt much more quickly than Doflamingo can, and he has shown increasing versatility.

In a matchup against Doflamingo I think he's shown enough now to prove he high-mid diffs him. He is nearly as strong as G4 (not stronger than G4, no matter how much the wank says otherwise) and he has shown some attacks like Diced Mochi that should do incredible damage to Doflamingo. He should be able to use his Mochi and CoO to defend against Doflamingo's more powerful attacks, and I think his haki is strong enough in conjunction with his mochi to hold up against strong attacks like Holy Strings long enough for him to move out of the way. He has shown he's adaptable, and since he can freely control his body's shape, parasite's strings shouldn't be able to stay on him.


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## xenos5 (Feb 16, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> After reading the latest chapter, I'm just going to revise my original answer. While I don't think Katakuri stomps or beats Doflamingo with ease, he has demonstrated twice now that he can adapt much more quickly than Doflamingo can, and he has shown increasing versatility.
> 
> In a matchup against Doflamingo I think he's shown enough now to prove he high-mid diffs him. He is nearly as strong as G4 (*not stronger than G4, no matter how much the wank says otherwise*) and he has shown some attacks like Diced Mochi that should do incredible damage to Doflamingo. He should be able to use his Mochi and CoO to defend against Doflamingo's more powerful attacks, and I think his haki is strong enough in conjunction with his mochi to hold up against strong attacks like Holy Strings long enough for him to move out of the way. He has shown he's adaptable, and since he can freely control his body's shape, parasite's strings shouldn't be able to stay on him.



Gear 4 Snake Man is weaker than Katakuri. How is it wank when Snake Man Luffy screamed in pain when his fist clashed with Kata’s Block Mochi fist?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 16, 2018)

honestly a serious non-PISed Kata going all out flat out low-diffs Dofla

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Funny 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 16, 2018)

Weiss said:


> honestly a serious non-PISed Kata going all out flat out low-diffs Dofla



Agreed.

Though I wonder if Kata can turn the strings Doffy made from his surroundings with awakening into Mochi with his own awakening?

I wouldn’t doubt the stronger awakening user would have the better transmutation effect. But we’ve never seen awakening vs awakening so it’s interesting to think about.


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## savior2005 (Feb 16, 2018)

Kata low-mid diff.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Feb 16, 2018)

I lean towards a medium difficulty win for Katakuri.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 16, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Gear 4 Snake Man is weaker than Katakuri. How is it wank when Snake Man Luffy screamed in pain when his fist clashed with Kata’s Block Mochi fist?



That came out of nowhere. I didn't imply Gear 4 Snake Man specifically...

I'm referring to the regular G4 Luffy that tossed Katakuri even when he was using Block Mochi fist. Some people still think G4 is weaker in physical strength despite tossing him around in mirror world.

Snakeman was specifically used for speed, and sacrificed some power.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 16, 2018)

Doflamingo mid diffs Luffy and Law at the same time a week ago in manga time.

Base Luffy lands a hit on Katakuri with no assistance.

"Doflamingo can't touch Katakuri."

Never change battledome.

Edit: If you disagree elaborate why. That’s the whole point of a discussion @tejas8055

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Spirit King (Feb 16, 2018)

This a low to mid diff fight at best. Doffy doesn't have means to actually hurt him so there's no way it's going beyond that. Katakuri's faster has greater offense defense and better pre-cog.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 16, 2018)

Spirit King said:


> This a low to mid diff fight at best. Doffy doesn't have means to actually hurt him so there's no way it's going beyond that. Katakuri's faster has greater offense defense and better pre-cog.



Doflamingo can’t even hurt Katakuri?

Doflamingo could beat Luffy without G4 and Law at the same time a literal week ago in the manga, but he can’t even hurt the guy that base Luffy has managed to hurt alone?

Please elaborate on why Doflamingo can’t even hurt Katakuri if base Luffy could.


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## A Optimistic (Feb 16, 2018)

Katakuri should win with medium difficulty, he outclasses Doflamingo in every category.

Please approve this post @Marcelle.B

Reactions: Like 1


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## Maruo (Feb 16, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Doflamingo can’t even hurt Katakuri?
> 
> Doflamingo could beat Luffy without G4 and Law at the same time a literal week ago in the manga, but he can’t even hurt the guy that base Luffy has managed to hurt alone?
> 
> Please elaborate on why Doflamingo can’t even hurt Katakuri if base Luffy could.



The base Luffy that hurt Katakuri is not the same as the base Luffy Doflamingo defeated. If Luffy faced Doflamingo now, it would be very difficult for Doflamingo to land a hit on him even if Luffy's in his base form due to his improved CoO. Luffy powered up tremendously during his fight with Katakuri so you can't just pretend that Dressrosa Luffy is the same as current Luffy.

Doflamingo never faced Luffy and Law at the same time either aside from the initial Red Hawk. He used Trebol and Bellamy to separate Luffy and Law. He also never actually defeated G2/G3 Luffy so you can't assume that he would have mid-diffed him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sherlōck (Feb 16, 2018)

Mingo fans in OroJackson were on suicide watch after yesterdays chapter.

Reactions: Funny 4 | Winner 2


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## GrizzlyClaws (Feb 17, 2018)

Sherlōck said:


> Mingo fans in OroJackson were on suicide watch after yesterdays chapter.



Are they trying to downplay Katakuri or something?


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## Extravlad (Feb 17, 2018)

Katakuri ROFLSTOMPS

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## neoacacia (Feb 17, 2018)

katakuri


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## Kylo Ren (Feb 17, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Edit: If you disagree elaborate why. That’s the whole point of a discussion


 I agree on this.



DoctorLaw said:


> *"Doflamingo can't touch Katakuri."*
> 
> Never change battledome.


but man this is true, Katakuri have logia like properties when you have that kind of advantage, you(Doffy) need better Coa to even put them down and we both know Coa and Coo haki, Kata is superior by miles.

You need to put this to rest and accept it, Doffy is cool but power talk Katakuri shit on him.


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## Ruse (Feb 17, 2018)

MO said:


> what difficulty do you think doffy gives katakuri?



I would’ve said high diff before but that’s looking unrealistic so mid diff I guess


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## Tenma (Feb 17, 2018)

Doffy-san 

Kata beats DD with lower end of mid diff


*Spoiler*: __ 



and beats Cracker with low diff


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## Imagine (Feb 17, 2018)

Cracker cracks his head open


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## savior2005 (Feb 17, 2018)

At this point, Idk how it can be any more than a low diff win for kata. his COO mastery is too high and his power is around G4 level. He's basically a UI (from DB super) G4 luffy. with no timelimit. He casually stops some of G4 luffy's attacks and even hurts G4 luffy.

and the luffy that is fighting kata is definately noticably stronger than the one that fought doffy.


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## Mariko (Feb 17, 2018)

On one side we have a fresh and healthy Doffy, on the other we have a fresh Katakuri.

Dem stats/feats are close: hax DF abilities, endurance/stams, CoC, CoA, awakening and else.

Who would win and with wich level of difficulty? 

Discuss m8.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Feb 17, 2018)

How are their stats close? I dont even think Dofla is tougher than Cracker or Jack.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Mariko (Feb 17, 2018)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> How are their stats close? I dont even think Dofla is tougher than Cracker or Jack.



The only difference we've seen is Kat having a particular CoO. On the other hand, DD's awakening seemed more effective/lethal. Besides, DD's durability is really impressive, and he can heal himself from fatal/deadly wounds. 

So, from what we've seen they should be rather equal. IMO.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 3


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## GrizzlyClaws (Feb 17, 2018)

This thread exists in the battledome.

And Katakuri wrecks Doflamingo.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 17, 2018)

mid-diff or low-diff


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Feb 17, 2018)

White Rabbit said:


> The only difference we've seen is Kat having a particular CoO. On the other hand, DD's awakening seemed more effective/lethal. Besides, DD's durability is really impressive, and he can heal himself from fatal/deadly wounds.
> 
> So, from what we've seen they should be rather equal. IMO.


Doflas hardened awakened strings couldn't even pierce Luffys haki coated skin at one point, so I don't see it as impressive as Kats ability to totally seal his opponents movements. Kat has overpowered Gear 3rd with little issue, is reacting to and dodging a Gear 4th mode designed for speed, and has shown specialized uses for both hakis. Without plot, Kat glued Dofla down and drills a hole in him. 

Btw Dofla cannot heal.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 17, 2018)

Katakuri shits on Doflamingo

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## B Rabbit (Feb 17, 2018)

Cracker beats Dolfamingo.

Now you want Katakuri to have a go?


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## Sherlōck (Feb 17, 2018)

GrizzlyClaws said:


> Are they trying to downplay Katakuri or something?



I guess both. Downplay Kata & wank Mingo.


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## savior2005 (Feb 17, 2018)

White Rabbit said:


> On one side we have a fresh and healthy Doffy, on the other we have a fresh Katakuri.
> 
> Dem stats/feats are close: hax DF abilities, endurance/stams, CoC, CoA, awakening and else.
> 
> ...


discuss what? we've had 4 pages of discussion already, and no they are not close at all. there is no "who would win" its obviously katakuri. and the level of diff is low-mid, most likely low.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 17, 2018)

Maruo said:


> The base Luffy that hurt Katakuri is not the same as the base Luffy Doflamingo defeated. If Luffy faced Doflamingo now, it would be very difficult for Doflamingo to land a hit on him even if Luffy's in his base form due to his improved CoO. Luffy powered up tremendously during his fight with Katakuri so you can't just pretend that Dressrosa Luffy is the same as current Luffy.
> 
> Doflamingo never faced Luffy and Law at the same time either aside from the initial Red Hawk. He used Trebol and Bellamy to separate Luffy and Law. He also never actually defeated G2/G3 Luffy so you can't assume that he would have mid-diffed him.



That's why I said a week ago. Luffy has never had a jump in power of this magnitude other than the timeskip. The closest was gears being introduced, but that made sense. They were sacrificial moves that followed some logic, like increasing his blood flow for speed. Other than his gears, Luffy throughout part 1 Luffy had the same level of base strength. He was just outright physically strong, sometimes much stronger than the main bad guy. His opponents are all different, and depending on their abilities they may or may not give him a harder time. 

This seems to still be the case. Luffy has increased the power of his CoA slightly(improves with clashes with stronger users), his CoO (he can't consistently use CoO well at all), and he's got more endurance. That's it. Base Luffy's speed isn't skyrocketing to extreme levels after a week, he's always been that fast. The reason Katakuri was having trouble hitting him was because Luffy has always been quick. If he had a harder time than Doflamingo, that means Doflamingo is faster. Every villain doesn't have to wreck every old villain in stats, they all have strengths and weaknesses. 

It's a game of matchups. Some characters are better suited for some situations. Katakuri appears overwhelmingly stronger than even characters like Marco because he's beating Luffy in a brawling CoO match, and he's got an advantage in both. Doflamingo wouldn't just blindly brawl Katakuri if he has ranged options that were difficult for even base Luffy (who's faster than Katakuri, always has been, Katakuri is the size of a house) to avoid. His awakening can spread over wide areas, very quickly. That's why G4, who was stronger, had a hard time trying to get to him. Having CoO to see the attack means nothing if the attack is coming from everywhere anyway. 

Doflamingo can hit Katakuri if base Luffy can.


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## Mariko (Feb 17, 2018)

savior2005 said:


> discuss what? we've had 4 pages of discussion already, and no they are not close at all. there is no "who would win" its obviously katakuri. and the level of diff is low-mid, most likely low.



Merged thread sweety. No need to be rude. 

Besides, nothing is obvious.


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## savior2005 (Feb 17, 2018)

White Rabbit said:


> Merged thread sweety. No need to be rude.
> 
> Besides, nothing is obvious.


sorry, didn't realize it was a merged thread. but the answer is obvious tho, kata wins no doubt

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 17, 2018)

White Rabbit said:


> On one side we have a fresh and healthy Doffy, on the other we have a fresh Katakuri.
> 
> Dem stats/feats are close: hax DF abilities, endurance/stams, CoC, CoA, awakening and else.
> 
> ...


 The stats aren't close.

Katakuri manhandled G4 Boundman. A weaker version of that Boundman stomped Doffy. Doffy had horrible portrayal vs G4

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Dellinger (Feb 17, 2018)

4 pages ? Really ?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mariko (Feb 17, 2018)

xmysticgohanx said:


> The stats aren't close.
> 
> Katakuri manhandled G4 Boundman. A weaker version of that Boundman stomped Doffy. Doffy had horrible portrayal vs G4



Don't shit talk mah boy Doffy. He's been unfairly nerfed by Torao baka and his top tier gama knife. 

Otherwise he'd have no diff G4 Lulu. 

:blobpanduh

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mob (Feb 17, 2018)

Why does this thread even exist


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 18, 2018)

Katakuri is practically invulnerable in the battledome, he shouldn't exist in any thread matchup

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Dislike 1


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## Kylo Ren (Feb 18, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> His awakening can spread over wide areas, very quickly. That's why G4, who was stronger, had a hard time trying to get to him.* Having CoO to see the attack means nothing if the attack is coming from everywhere anyway*.


Black Mamba shit on Doffy's awakening in speed and coming with you non stop yet Katakuri dodge and counter it with pretty much in an awesome manner. Coo is everything. you should stop wanking Doffy, let it go bro.


How many times that you are proven wrong on this yet here you are talking about Wanking when someone choose Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Phantom Thief (Feb 18, 2018)

Katakuri takes it low mid-diff.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 18, 2018)

Don King said:


> Black Mamba shit on Doffy's awakening in speed and coming with you non stop yet Katakuri dodge and counter it with pretty much in an awesome manner. Coo is everything. you should stop wanking Doffy, let it go bro.
> 
> 
> How many times that you are proven wrong on this yet here you are talking about Wanking when someone choose Katakuri.



Go through every single one of my posts. I'm consistently saying Doflamingo loses, and Katakuri wins.

I started off by saying the arc villain, Doflamingo, who Luffy had to beat with extreme diff with help, would give Katakuri a good fight.

"Lol CoO Katakuri low diff."

I then point out why I don't think Katakuri should low diff Doflamingo.

"Lol Katakuri can't be touched."

At this point, I'm just arguing against the idea that Doflamingo can't even touch Katakuri. Again, read through my posts and you'll see that.

But probably not, because if Katakuri so much as gets hit by any attack in the world, "it's bullshit because he has CoO."

And the pictures you posted didn't prove anything. Doflamingo's awakening turned entire chunks of the city into strings that could chase Luffy from all directions. It's completely different. Luffy has only one or two fists, Doflamingo can throw a Whole Foods at you. The difference is that Katakuri can shift around Jet Python if he sees it coming, he can only dodge if something larger than his body swarms him.

I have yet to see any proof from anyone here as to why Doflamingo can't hit Katakuri and I never will. Katakuri is a first mate, not a god. He is not the only CoO user in the world at that level, and characters aren't automatically helpless against users like this, especially if the person fighting someone like this was decisively stronger than Luffy, who is literally hitting Katakuri in base form when this is his very first time fighting this technique.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kylo Ren (Feb 19, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Go through every single one of my posts. I'm consistently saying Doflamingo loses, and Katakuri wins.
> 
> I started off by saying the arc villain, Doflamingo, who Luffy had to beat with extreme diff with help, would give Katakuri a good fight.
> 
> ...


I know you vote for Katakuri but it's true what they're saying I just don't see Doffy can touch Katakuri at this point and it's all because of the Coo.


DoctorLaw said:


> And the pictures you posted didn't prove anything. Doflamingo's awakening turned entire chunks of the city into strings that could chase Luffy from all directions. It's completely different. Luffy has only one or two fists, Doflamingo can throw a Whole Foods at you. The difference is that Katakuri can shift around Jet Python if he sees it coming, he can only dodge if something larger than his body swarms him.


It proves everything cause that Black Mamba is faster than everything Doffy's awakening technique he shown and you forgot that it doesn't matter if the string came out anywhere as long as Katakuri have "future sight" he can easily counter it cause he got speed and DF that have versatility as well and he also have Awakening.


DoctorLaw said:


> I have yet to see any proof from anyone here as to why Doflamingo can't hit Katakuri and I never will. Katakuri is a first mate, not a god. He is not the only CoO user in the world at that level, and characters aren't automatically helpless against users like this, especially if the person fighting someone like this was decisively stronger than Luffy, who is literally hitting Katakuri in base form when this is his very first time fighting this technique.


COO? I mean, I been saying this for a long time with you but as long as Doffy is not on Katakuri's level of Coo he can't touch Kata and as long as Katakuri is superior in Coa as well Doffy can't do shit to him and that's the point of 1st part of Luffy Vs. Katakuri anyone who can't compete with his Future Sights will become useless to him unless you caught him in his Merienda time. You underestimate Luffy progession in this fight in his base form Luffy drastically become more powerful than he was before just to compete with Kata in which some here including me thought it was too much plot armor.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Feb 19, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Usopp took the same attack and was fine. Vergo went at Sanji using only kicks when that's not his actual style of combat, Vergo wasn't using busoshoku even though specializing in it, Vergo went at Sanji without rokushiki, and Vergo also was more casual.
> 
> A single kick broke Sanji's leg bone and the fight was ultimately in Vergo's favor heavily even though it only lasted like 2 and a half pages. Sanji even got 2 free hits and it did nothing, both to Vergo's face. Vergo trounced Sanji easily.
> 
> It was unfair because Vergo is stronger than Zoro and Zoro is stronger than Sanji.



In the manga,you can see in the background you can see that they traded kicks before Sanji´s leg was cracked.Even if he didn´t use his other powers,it doesn´t mean he wasn´t serious,kicks are just another part of his fighting style.Also,the fight wasn´t over yet,so you can claim that Vergo won.And,again,Sanji´s body was heavily damaged before the fight,even Sanji himself commented that once he returned.and he still landed two powerful kicks to Vergo,they are about equal.Btw,Sanji didn´t use some of his stronger techniques nor a secret technique he learned on Kamabaka island from Ivankov.Sanji had only 1 free hit on vergo that's it.And vergo stronger than zoro?on what basis?


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 19, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> In the manga,you can see in the background you can see that they traded kicks before Sanji´s leg was cracked.Even if he didn´t use his other powers,it doesn´t mean he wasn´t serious,kicks are just another part of his fighting style.Also,the fight wasn´t over yet,so you can claim that Vergo won.And,again,Sanji´s body was heavily damaged before the fight,even Sanji himself commented that once he returned.and he still landed two powerful kicks to Vergo,they are about equal.Btw,Sanji didn´t use some of his stronger techniques nor a secret technique he learned on Kamabaka island from Ivankov.Sanji had only 1 free hit on vergo that's it.And vergo stronger than zoro?on what basis?


No, that was after the fact of the leg crack, one kick broke the leg.

If Luffy beat someone with no buso, no gears, and only using kicks while putting less effort than his opponent, it'd be a stomp, even if Luffy uses kicks.

Kicks are arguably a lesser part of Vergo's fighting style than Luffy in reality.

Vergo with a single kick broke Sanji's leg bone heavily, his injury prior to it was minor and it wouldn't effect his leg bone.

"two powerful kicks"
1 was a blindside
the second Vergo didn't even attempt to react to
Neither of them actually made Vergo hurt at all and Sanji was the one complaining about how hard Vergo is.

Saying those kicks makes them equal is like trying to claim the yeti cool brothers are stronger than zoro for blindsiding him.

Vergo is vastly stronger than Sanji, most likely stronger than Zoro too. On what basis? The basis that Law is > Zoro pretty heavily so and Vergo is on that level alongside Smoker.

Vergo was only using kicks, he wasn't using buso which is his specialty, his legs were vastly above someone who specializes in kicks, he wasn't using rokushiki, and he put vastly less effort than Sanji was (sanji was hard struggling and vergo was super casual)

They fought for 3 pages and Sanji even commented he'd be screwed if the fight continued. Vergo could low to mid diff Sanji using only regular kicks (not even using buso kicks)

Doflamingo's crew went: Doflamingo > Vergo > Rosinante > Trebol > or = Pica and Trebol > Rest
Rosinante died though while the rest got more and more powerful so they surpassed him, but if you take out sanji from the monster trio and you don't suddenly have franky getting tons of power to fill the gap, the gap of strength is still there.

So it's Doflamingo > Vergo >>> Trebol > or = Pica and Diamante > Rest

A serious Zoro would have to put more effort than Vergo did while using his actual style of combat to embarrass Sanji as much as Vergo did.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 20, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> No, that was after the fact of the leg crack, one kick broke the leg.
> 
> If Luffy beat someone with no buso, no gears, and only using kicks while putting less effort than his opponent, it'd be a stomp, even if Luffy uses kicks.
> 
> ...



 Lot of exaggerating here, and some outright false statements. Sanji's leg wasn't broken. And you neglect to mention Sanji didn't use haki either, or half of his moveset. He put Vergo through a wall twice. That's not how low diff fights go. 

Law also one shot Vergo. So that's not a very strong basis to have for Zoro < Vergo. If Vergo pushed Law to extreme diff, and we had proof Law was stronger than Zoro, maybe you would be onto something. At the very least I can tell you Zoro has better haki than Law, since he spent two years learning it directly from Mihawk and Law didn't possess it at all when he encountered the pacifista. Zoro trains more than other characters, and if Sanji's speed is reminiscent of Luffy's, I'd have to guess Zoro's strength is just under what Luffy can do.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 21, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Lot of exaggerating here, and some outright false statements. Sanji's leg wasn't broken. And you neglect to mention Sanji didn't use haki either, or half of his moveset. He put Vergo through a wall twice. That's not how low diff fights go.
> 
> Law also one shot Vergo. So that's not a very strong basis to have for Zoro < Vergo. If Vergo pushed Law to extreme diff, and we had proof Law was stronger than Zoro, maybe you would be onto something. At the very least I can tell you Zoro has better haki than Law, since he spent two years learning it directly from Mihawk and Law didn't possess it at all when he encountered the pacifista. Zoro trains more than other characters, and if Sanji's speed is reminiscent of Luffy's, I'd have to guess Zoro's strength is just under what Luffy can do.


 
One kick, one heavily cracked leg bone from the kicking specialist.

Got any proof that Sanji didn't use haki? Sanji isn't able to use hardening, Vergo is, when someone can use hardening it becomes their default haki and they never use the other stuff, Sanji can't use that cuz he's not good enough at buso (he specializes in kenbunshoku)
Not to mention Vergo is VASTLY superior in buso than Sanji.

He attacked Vergo when he was literally doing something else and Vergo didn't even know he was there.
Then Vergo looked up casually and went "who are you?" without giving a shit and was kicked again.
1, if not both of those kicks, were flame kicks. Neither did any damage and Vergo after both times went: "you are disturbing an internal matter", ie the equivalent of: "what an annoying and weak fly"

Vergo = Buso mastery, rokushiki, an amazingly hard durability, and being a terminator in that he'll keep coming for you.
Law = Strong combatant and a super hax devil fruit that allows him to ignore the latter two + tekkai

Vergo was cocky and charged forward, Law was able to with his strongest attack to date that heavily drained him + his own buso, defeat Vergo's buso. The hax was able to deal with the rest, cutting through him like air.
If someone like Zoro was fighting Vergo, he'd have to dish out attacks on that level to even give Vergo a paper cut.
Vergo also previously had shown the ability to dodge attacks like that, meaning he was just being cocky and believed his buso would stand up to it like it did in the past. (when law was weaker)

Overall Law can beat people on his level with hax, he would have beaten Doflamingo even with gamma knife if doflamingo didn't have the string devil fruit to be able to stitch his internal organs together without the ability to move his body.

Smoker vs Law was close and Smoker had the every so minor advantage over Vergo (high to extreme diff would be required to defeat Vergo from Smoker's)

Either way, Law pretty much high to extreme diff'd Vergo. If Vergo had chosen to dodge that attack and been successful, Law would have been in a horrible position due to the heavy stamina drain and Vergo would have arguably won.

Law is vastly stronger than Zoro.
Law vs Vergo
Law vs Smoker
Law vs Yeti Cool Brothers
and Law vs Doflamingo (especially) proved this point.


It was actually implied in the manga that Law and maybe others of the supernova had haki pre timeskip. Also the Kidd and Law pirates vs Pacifista fight was anime only (ie not canon). There was a conversation when Luffy was passed out when Law met Rayleigh and the amazons that hinted at Law having haki already.

Luffy is stronger than and faster than Zoro and Sanji in those two things. Anyway Law would mid diff Zoro at most, his hax, diversity of abilities, and his own impressive haki and stats would win it for him easily.

Overall Vergo is just a bit shy of Doflamingo.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Brian (Feb 21, 2018)

Katakuri mid diff


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## Magnet40 (Feb 22, 2018)

Katakuri would MID DIFF Doflamingo. There is NOTHING Doflamingo could do to bypass Katakuri Future Sight. Once Katakuri gets near him its GOOD GAME.

Plus KATAKURI SURPASSES HIM IN EVERY HAKI. And HAS AWAKENING.

Idk how anyone could even agrue For a High Diff


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## Dr. White (Feb 22, 2018)

Magnet40 said:


> Katakuri would MID DIFF Doflamingo. There is NOTHING Doflamingo could do to bypass Katakuri Future Sight. Once Katakuri gets near him its GOOD GAME.
> 
> Plus KATAKURI SURPASSES HIM IN EVERY HAKI. And HAS AWAKENING.
> 
> Idk how anyone could even agrue For a High Diff


Katakuri is being pushed to high diff by base/g4 luffy.

Katakuro has better haki than luffy.

Katakuri's coo has been beat by luffy multiple times. 

Doflamingo's Awakening is better and he can attack woth a city.

Doflamingo could parasite jozu.

Doflamingo tanked g4 hits and would have beaten luffy despite taking a gamma knife had dressrosa not helped.

Kata is winning high diff or above

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 22, 2018)

serious katakuri no diffs

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Katakuri is being pushed to high diff by base/g4 luffy.



Oh come on, you know Base Luffy being able to do anything in this fight is just PIS. Do you think Base Luffy could dodge attacks from G4 Snakeman Luffy (someone Katakuri is matching the attack speed of and landing multiple attacks on)? It's just to show how much Luffy's CoO is growing. 

And on top of that Luffy's stamina/endurance got a massive increase from the Cracker fight (fighting while eating biscuits and going into Gear 4 multiple times). 



Dr. White said:


> Katakuri has better haki than luffy.





Dr. White said:


> Katakuri's coo has been beat by luffy multiple times.



Beaten? No. The best Luffy has managed is to dodge a few attacks. His CoO still isn't on Katakuri's level. 



Dr. White said:


> Doflamingo's Awakening is better and he can attack worth a city.



What? Katakuri's range with his Awakening is massive. He can make Mochi come down from the ceiling of the mirror world despite being on the ground. And he controlled the ground of the mirror world and distorted it to give himself a massive speed boost as he was rolling in his donut mochi form. 

Doflamingo's awakening didn't cover the entire city, dude. That's an exaggeration. It had a clear origin point and Luffy was able to avoid it by just flying away from that origin point (and that was with the cage closing in around them). 

Katakuri's Awakening rather than go with sheer AOE, seems to be able to appear at any point in an area near Katakuri spontaneously (or spread imperceptibly at such a fast rate it appears spontaneous). This allows for it to being harder to avoid as you don't know where an attack could come from (G4 Luffy dodged one Peerless Donut/Power Mochi punch and another hit him from behind). You will know if Doffy has turned an area into strings as the area will clearly be changed, but you won't know where a Mochi Awakening attack could come from until it hits you.



Dr. White said:


> Doflamingo could parasite jozu.



Doflamingo is never landing Parasite on someone who is as fast as (and can dodge in the way he does with his Logia-esque Special Paramecia) G4 Snakeman Luffy. 



Dr. White said:


> Doflamingo tanked g4 hits and would have beaten luffy despite taking a gamma knife had dressrosa not helped.



I think you have a weird definition of tanked. Every one of G4 Luffy's attacks did clear damage to Doffy. He could not take Luffy in a head on fight like Katakuri can with WCI Arc Boundman and Snakeman Luffy. 

And I mentioned this in another thread. But i'll say it again. A decent amount of Katakuri's attacks have a piercing attribute on top of Katakuri's strength as opposed to Luffy's which are all blunt force and thus they are more lethal. Even with Luffy's natural resistance due to having a rubber body, he still had a hole made in him by Katakuri's trident, Mogura. Diced Mochi would likely make a bunch of holes all over someone who is Current Gear 4 level in durability (higher than Doflamingo's) but doesn't have his natural resistance as it is covered in spikes, and when Katakuri slams it down those spikes would be forced in even further. Lastly Katakuri's kick on Luffy after he Matrix Dodged Black Mamba used a spike on his boot which pushed Luffy's face inwards massively, so someone who isn't Luffy could have their brain punctured by that. 



Dr. White said:


> Kata is winning high diff or above



Katakuri can win with just one lethal blow from one of his piercing attacks. Doflamingo would be hardpressed to land any blows on Katakuri. 

How is that high diff?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Kata is winning high diff *or above*

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Canute87 (Feb 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Katakuri is being pushed to high diff by base/g4 luffy.
> 
> Katakuro has better haki than luffy.
> 
> ...



recall katakuri tore a hole in his stomach.


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## Mr. Good vibes (Feb 22, 2018)

Mid dif for Katakuri.
DD is outclassed in all stats and his best shit can be countered.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shrike (Feb 22, 2018)

This thread... people...

I know that Katakuri wins this fight, but honestly you guys are ridiculous. You only remember what you want to remember, ie selectively.

"waah waah, portrayal, waah, Dofla was ragdolled lolol" etc. 

Sure, but Katakuri has been fighting base Luffy for hours. "but but Luffy has gotten 10 times stronger!" okay, fucking prove it. The only thing that got stronger is Luffy's CoO, and that's mid fight, and Luffy has been dodging Katakuri way before that.

Luffy's Armament was pierced by DD's Awakening. Nobody wants to remember that. The same Awakening that literally fodderized base Luffy in a second and set him flying into a mountain and parasited him immediately after that whereas he had to go G4 to break the strings. Go and read chapter 790 again.

The same chapter will show you that Flamingo's Awakening is quite a bit better than Katakuri's overall, because it covers larger area and can easily capture targets. Katakuri is simply a lot stronger when it comes to power, but Flamingo is still more versatile.

I don't even want to get into some sort of stupid discussion, I just wanted to say that, as clear as it is that Katakuri wins this, you are overreacting; DD is strong.

Edit: as far as I can see, lots of people downplay DD when comparing these fights because 1)CoO, which is understandable and 2)because of the scale, which is stupid, because DR got demolished and its a lot larger then the Mirror World.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Magnet40 (Feb 22, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Katakuri is being pushed to high diff by base/g4 luffy.
> 
> Katakuro has better haki than luffy.
> 
> ...



Luffy ONLY BEAT KATAKURI CoO BECAUSE OF THE MERINDA, and Now the Speed of SNAKEMAN.

Doflamingo is NOT AS FAST AS SNAKE MAN, Nor is Snack Time happening in this scenario. So there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY DOFLAMINGO IS TOUCHING KATAKURI (Go ahead an try to argue that even though you cant)

Plus Doflamingo Parasiting Jozu has absolutely nothing to do with this, Katakuri is made ENTIRELY OF MOCHI, it wouldn’t work. 

There is NOTHING DOFLAMINGO CAN DO BUT STALL.

Plus Doflamingo turned 4-5 buildings into Strings. THAT IS NOT CITY LEVEL... (Please get the facts straight)

Katakuri made those Mirror World Pillars into Mochi which are definitely Building size. So Katakuri Awakening is Just as Good if not better.

He outclasses Doflamingo in EVERY STAT but Range.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Magnet40 (Feb 22, 2018)

Shrike said:


> This thread... people...
> 
> I know that Katakuri wins this fight, but honestly you guys are ridiculous. You only remember what you want to remember, ie selectively.
> 
> ...




Doflamingo is strong, however those Awakened Strings only Pierced Base Luffy if he was in Gear 4th it wouldn’t work.... Katakuri is able to hurt Luffy Fist to Fist in Gear 4th And hurt him. With blunt attacks

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 22, 2018)

Shrike said:


> This thread... people...
> 
> I know that Katakuri wins this fight, but honestly you guys are ridiculous. You only remember what you want to remember, ie selectively.
> 
> ...



Luffy clearly has gotten a massive boost in endurance. He used G4 many times against Cracker when just using it twice against Doflamingo + the injuries he got knocked him out for days. 

He couldn't even move for a good amount of time after he first used G4, but after his battle against Cracker he ran out of G4 against Katakuri and could run away and use Gear 3 (just without haki). 

The level of endurance/stamina Luffy is displaying is ridiculously far above what he showed against Doflamingo.

Katakuri's awakening doesn't need to spread from an obvious origin point like Doffy's. Katakuri had Peerless Donut/Power Mochi appear from behind G4 Luffy to strike him, and was able to make part of the ceiling into Mochi from a distance to bury Luffy. With Doffy's awakening you just need to avoid areas that looked like they've been turned into string, but you won't know where Katakuri can send Mochi awakening attacks from either cause they pop up spontaneously or they spread in a way that is more imperceptible from what we've seen.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shrike (Feb 22, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Luffy clearly has gotten a massive boost in endurance. He used G4 many times against Cracker when just using it twice against Doflamingo + the injuries he got knocked him out for days.



I am going to stop you there. He used G4 twice. It was never said that he used it more. You can try to argue it and it won't do the argument any good, because there is zero proof.



xenos5 said:


> He couldn't even move for a good amount of time after he first used G4, but after his battle against Cracker he ran out of G4 against Katakuri and could run away and use Gear 3 (just without haki).



What if he used less Haki in G4 against Cracker the first time it ran out or that he canceled the mode? We don't know that.



xenos5 said:


> The level of endurance/stamina Luffy is displaying is ridiculously far above what he showed against Doflamingo.



Because Luffy is staying in his base against Kata most of the fight. He wasn't getting tired in his base, G2, G3 during Doffy fight either. It just didn't do anything to Flamingo.



xenos5 said:


> Katakuri's awakening doesn't need to spread from an obvious origin point like Doffy's. Katakuri had Peerless Donut/Power Mochi appear from behind G4 Luffy to strike him, and was able to make part of the ceiling into Mochi from a distance to bury Luffy. With Doffy's awakening you just need to avoid areas that looked like they've been turned into string, but you won't know where Katakuri can send Mochi awakening attacks from either cause they pop up spontaneously or they spread in a way that is more imperceptible from what we've seen.



Correct, though Katakuri hasn't shown great range with his Awakening. That's all I have said - that Doffy's is more versatile and can be used against many different types of opponents.


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## xenos5 (Feb 22, 2018)

Shrike said:


> I am going to stop you there. He used G4 twice. It was never said that he used it more. You can try to argue it and it won't do the argument any good, because there is zero proof.



He fought Cracker for *hours* going in and out of Gear 4 How did that not bolster his endurance? 

I truly think him eating those biscuits while fighting for longer periods of time is what caused that boost. We have not seen Luffy fight for THAT long before then. 



Shrike said:


> What if he used less Haki in G4 against Cracker the first time it ran out or that he canceled the mode? We don't know that.



Do you have proof he used less haki? I would assume he used just as much Haki since he used a gatling version of Kong Gun over and over (Kong Organ) on the biscuit soldiers. That's got to be strenuous. 

And keep in mind Luffy used Gear 4 once against Big Mom and he could run in base, and then again, against Katakuri and it was during that second time that he ran and could use Gear 3. 

Luffy has clearly been able to do much more after having his energy exhausted by G4 than he was able to during the Dressrosa Arc.



Shrike said:


> Because Luffy is staying in his base against Kata most of the fight. He wasn't getting tired in his base, G2, G3 during Doffy fight either. It just didn't do anything to Flamingo.



And most of the fight Katakuri wasn't using his trident or going with piercing attacks (which would've been better as Luffy has less of a resistance against those kind of attacks). Had Katakuri been using his trident from the start (before Luffy's CoO improved by a lot) it's very likely he woud've died very early since I don't think he can fight with more than one of those holes in his body. 

Doflamingo has even less of a resistance to piercing attacks than Luffy does (due to not having a rubber body). How many holes do you think Doffy could have in his body before he goes down?



Shrike said:


> Correct, though Katakuri hasn't shown great range with his Awakening. That's all I have said - that Doffy's is more versatile and can be used against many different types of opponents.



Eh. The ceiling of the mirror world is very far off from the ground so i'd say Katakuri being able to quickly make the ceiling into mochi with awakening is a great range feat for it. 

I think you're mistaking range with AOE.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Magnet40 (Feb 22, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Luffy clearly has gotten a massive boost in endurance. He used G4 many times against Cracker when just using it twice against Doflamingo + the injuries he got knocked him out for days.
> 
> He couldn't even move for a good amount of time after he first used G4, but after his battle against Cracker he ran out of G4 against Katakuri and could run away and use Gear 3 (just without haki).
> 
> ...



You’re using Headcannon, he only went into Gear 4th because thet biscuits were too much to deal with just Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd stacking.... Once Nami wet the Biscuits, which makes them ALOT SOFTER (THATS VERY IMPORTANT) he then Proceeded to just eat them because he’d assumed Cracker would Run out or he’d get tired if making them. 

He only went into to Gear 4th twice.... In the ANIME, and in the MANGA


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## xenos5 (Feb 22, 2018)

Magnet40 said:


> You’re using Headcannon, he only went into Gear 4th because thet biscuits were too much to deal with just Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd stacking.... Once Nami wet the Biscuits, which makes them ALOT SOFTER (THATS VERY IMPORTANT) he then Proceeded to just eat them because he’d assumed Cracker would Run out or he’d get tired if making them.
> 
> He only went into to Gear 4th twice.... In the ANIME, and in the MANGA



And? He still fought for hours and NEEDED outside help (Nami taking advantage of the elemental weakness of the biscuit soldiers).

twice or not he was in better condition after using Gear 4 against Cracker than after when he used it against Doflamingo. That's a fact.

You don't see Luffy fight for many hours at all really, until the cracker fight. Do you have an explanation for that other than a stamina/endurance boost?


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 22, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> And? He still fought for hours and NEEDED outside help (Nami taking advantage of the elemental weakness of the biscuit soldiers).
> 
> twice or not he was in better condition after using Gear 4 against Cracker than after when he used it against Doflamingo. That's a fact.
> 
> You don't see Luffy fight for many hours at all really, until the cracker fight. Do you have an explanation for that other than a stamina/endurance boost?



Well the "And?" here is the fact that you based a lot of reasoning off of something that wasn't true. Naturally his endurance improves and we understand that, but originally you painted this picture that Luffy is just freely going through G4 for hours because of this vast endurance boost that didn't happen. Katakuri is the strongest opponent Luffy has had a straight up fight with, and yet he's only used G4 a few times. G4 would've helped him out a lot during some tough spots, and yet he didn't use it.

Luffy didn't use G4 against Doflamingo and Katakuri immediately because it still taxes him heavily. He only changed into G4 when Doflamingo reminded him of the time limit, when he saw he didn't have the power to break Cracker's defense, and when he found out Katakuri was vulnerable and he needed to maximize damage.

It's just like G2 was. A move used when its absolutely needed, with a downside. After his first G4, Luffy lost a lot of the strength he had been building back up, and couldn't even dent a wall that a random Yonkou commander cut straight through. If Luffy fights an opponent that he can fight without G4, he will almost certainly try to beat them without G4.

Oda has never given Luffy massive stat boosts without skips or gears, he grows gradually from an already strong point. The only thing that has immensely improved in terms of endurance is his ability to move well after G4. We'll have to wait after this arc I think to see whether or not Luffy can go G4 like he can G2.


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## xenos5 (Feb 22, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Well the "And?" here is the fact that you based a lot of reasoning off of something that wasn't true. Naturally his endurance improves and we understand that, but originally you painted this picture that Luffy is just freely going through G4 for hours because of this vast endurance boost that didn't happen. Katakuri is the strongest opponent Luffy has had a straight up fight with, and yet he's only used G4 a few times. G4 would've helped him out a lot during some tough spots, and yet he didn't use it.
> 
> Luffy didn't use G4 against Doflamingo and Katakuri immediately because it still taxes him heavily. He only changed into G4 when Doflamingo reminded him of the time limit, when he saw he didn't have the power to break Cracker's defense, and when he found out Katakuri was vulnerable and he needed to maximize damage.
> 
> ...



Tell me, when has Luffy fought for as long as he has against Cracker and Katakuri (many hours) in base taking many attacks prior to fighting them?

Can you name a single fight where Base Luffy's endurance has been as impressive as it has been against Katakuri?

And another thing is that as I said before, Katakuri didn't even use his best means of killing Luffy (piercing attacks like with his trident) until late into the fight when Luffy's CoO had improved a lot. What stops Katakuri from using his trident for that long here on an opponent who would not be able to dodge it as well?


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 22, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Tell me, when has Luffy fought for as long as he has against Cracker and Katakuri (many hours) in base taking many attacks prior to fighting them?
> 
> Can you name a single fight where Base Luffy's endurance has been as impressive as it has been against Katakuri?
> 
> And another thing is that as I said before, Katakuri didn't even use his best means of killing Luffy (piercing attacks like with his trident) until late into the fight when Luffy's CoO had improved a lot. What stops Katakuri from using his trident for that long here on an opponent who would not be able to dodge it as well?



Just because he hasn't shown off the endurance doesn't mean its not there. He hasn't had situations where he had to fight an opponent for hours on end like Cracker or Katakuri. If Doflamingo hadn't used Bird Cage and hadn't reminded Luffy of the time limit, Luffy could've fought him for a long time in that state as well. The situation arose, so he responds, the same way he does to pretty much every challenge, its a shonen story. I guess ID/MF war was just as impressive as his Katakuri fight in terms of endurance, especially since he had to take a torture session inbetween having the most painful poison of his life and being ping ponged by top tiers during the war.

Katakuri also used his trident repeatedly before he actually stabbed Luffy with it. As a matter of fact, the only reason he got a hit was because of his sister helping him. Which is what made him use his other attacks in the first place. Luffy successfully dodged his trident quite a few times, and presumably many more times over the course of those hours. The apparent most powerful move would be Diced Mochi (since Oda chooses to make him use it to clash with King Cobra), and Luffy took a hit with that head on without being shish kebabed.


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## xenos5 (Feb 22, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Just because he hasn't shown off the endurance doesn't mean its not there. He hasn't had situations where he had to fight an opponent for hours on end like Cracker or Katakuri. If Doflamingo hadn't used Bird Cage and hadn't reminded Luffy of the time limit, Luffy could've fought him for a long time in that state as well. The situation arose, so he responds, the same way he does to pretty much every challenge, its a shonen story. I guess ID/MF war was just as impressive as his Katakuri fight in terms of endurance, especially since he had to take a torture session inbetween having the most painful poison of his life and being ping ponged by top tiers during the war.
> 
> Katakuri also used his trident repeatedly before he actually stabbed Luffy with it. As a matter of fact, the only reason he got a hit was because of his sister helping him. Which is what made him use his other attacks in the first place. Luffy successfully dodged his trident quite a few times, and presumably many more times over the course of those hours. The apparent most powerful move would be Diced Mochi (since Oda chooses to make him use it to clash with King Cobra), and Luffy took a hit with that head on without being shish kebabed.



Doflamingo's CoO <<<<< Luffy's CoO after the boost he's gained.

Katakuri also landed plenty of attacks before and after the CoO boost (90% of the fight has been Luffy being beaten to shit) and prior to the CoO boost the only reason Katakuri would have an issue landing an attack was due to not being used to the weird ways Luffy could dodge with his rubber body (him moving his head out of the way independently of his body and shit like that).

He did not need Flampe to have eventually landed the trident since Luffy couldn't dodge his attacks with a high enough level of consistency/accuracy (he couldn't catch up to Katakuri's max CoO) and was still being hit with plenty of attacks.

Doflamingo is not G4 Luffy. He doesn't have the same rubber body. So Luffy not having holes stuck in him all over his body by Diced Mochi (though it clearly still caused him notable damage) does not mean Doflamingo would not be made into a pincushion by it.


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## Spirit King (Feb 22, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Well the "And?" here is the fact that you based a lot of reasoning off of something that wasn't true. Naturally his endurance improves and we understand that, but originally you painted this picture that Luffy is just freely going through G4 for hours because of this vast endurance boost that didn't happen. Katakuri is the strongest opponent Luffy has had a straight up fight with, and yet he's only used G4 a few times. G4 would've helped him out a lot during some tough spots, and yet he didn't use it.
> 
> Luffy didn't use G4 against Doflamingo and Katakuri immediately because it still taxes him heavily. He only changed into G4 when Doflamingo reminded him of the time limit, when he saw he didn't have the power to break Cracker's defense, and when he found out Katakuri was vulnerable and he needed to maximize damage.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't agree with this. Your right it taxes him heavily but the main point is that it leaves him without haki for a long period of time. Even if Luffy could use Gear 4 almost indefinitely it wouldn't be tactically sound choice as the second it runs out he's fucked that's why he left the mirror world and came back. He can't repeatedly do this.

By contrast he had no such limitations against cracker as he had substantial amount of help meaning he could use gear 4 with mnimal drawbacks and was still unable to defeat cracker until he used tank man and cracker had run out.


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## Nox (Feb 22, 2018)

MUM sent out Cracker after word got out Luffy manhandled Doflamingo. The same MUM felt he wasn't worthy of being her Second Calamity. Who so happens to be a featless woman riding on the cocktails of her title. Meanwhile Katakuri is fighting a stronger version of Luffy across every feasible parameter. In a few hours Boundman has gone from struggling against Cracker to sustaining itself against Katakuri. How much improvement do you think a week since Dressrosa has done? Katakuri took G4 barrage was tossed around and recovered at such fast rate in one attack of his own he rendered Luffy's obsolete. Luffy praised Cracker BH but was visibly shaken and in pain punching Kata. Speedwise he's outmatched G4 mid air whilst bearing a self inflicted wounds. WTF is Doflamingo even supposed to do to him? Kata is treating Luffy the way he treated him.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Kylo Ren (Feb 22, 2018)

Shrike said:


> Sure, but Katakuri has been fighting base Luffy for hours. "but but Luffy has gotten 10 times stronger!" okay, fucking prove it. The only thing that got stronger is Luffy's CoO, and that's mid fight, and Luffy has been dodging Katakuri way before that.


Endurance, Stamina, Durability, Coo and Coa. Early in this fight Luffy can't even match a normal Haki of Katakuri but during/mid fight he even match a Katakuri awaken G3 punch.





Shrike said:


> Luffy's Armament was pierced by DD's Awakening. Nobody wants to remember that. The same Awakening that literally fodderized base Luffy in a second and set him flying into a mountain and parasited him immediately after that whereas he had to go G4 to break the strings. Go and read chapter 790 again.


No one forgetting this but this is a Luffy that not fully regain his Haki, even Doffy comment on it and you're talking about Katakuri been fighting Luffy for hours yet he still standing but it is given because of plot but look if plot demands even Doffy can't do anything to Luffy he got attack by a point blank Awakening string yet next panel Luffy is quite alright. He should be dead if you ask me, but plot needs him alive.




Shrike said:


> The same chapter will show you that Flamingo's Awakening is quite a bit better than Katakuri's overall, because it covers larger area and can easily capture targets. Katakuri is simply a lot stronger when it comes to power, but Flamingo is still more versatile.


If he is fighting Cracker yes, Doffy versatility can be an advantage but Katakuri is also a versatile fighter and even if Doffy's versatility is greater than Katakuri his Coo can help him catch up.


Shrike said:


> I don't even want to get into some sort of stupid discussion, I just wanted to say that, as clear as it is that Katakuri wins this, you are overreacting; DD is strong.


Why do you think this is a stupid discussion because the majority thinks Katakuri can easily win? We even give a reason for it but the one who lack evidence is the one who think Doffy have a fighting chance. No one said iirc that Doffy is weak he is strong but not in Katakuri's level but the main factor for it is Coo which is, you already knew.

G4 Luffy > Doffy in DR arc, I think everyone is agreed to this but even G4 with all that power and speed can't do anything to Katakuri's Coo. I don't even remember if you're one of the members as well who said that If Luffy catch up to Katakuri's Coo his G4 will rag doll Katakuri but boy we're so wrong.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 23, 2018)

NOX said:


> MUM sent out Cracker after word got out Luffy manhandled Doflamingo. The same MUM felt he wasn't worthy of being her Second Calamity. Who so happens to be a featless woman riding on the cocktails of her title. Meanwhile Katakuri is fighting a stronger version of Luffy across every feasible parameter. In a few hours Boundman has gone from struggling against Cracker to sustaining itself against Katakuri. How much improvement do you think a week since Dressrosa has done? Katakuri took G4 barrage was tossed around and recovered at such fast rate in one attack of his own he rendered Luffy's obsolete. Luffy praised Cracker BH but was visibly shaken and in pain punching Kata. Speedwise he's outmatched G4 mid air whilst bearing a self inflicted wounds. WTF is Doflamingo even supposed to do to him? Kata is treating Luffy the way he treated him.



Katakuri never bested G4 in speed, he's used his CoO to see attacks coming and dodge, that's it. If you're referring to the time he got Luffy with that donut shit, Luffy was flying to him and extended his arm in that direction, and Katakuri ducked under his arm and went into the donut to catch him. He dodged with his body shift/CoO, so again, he didn't do that on pure reaction and speed, he saw the attack coming.

He has an entire conversation with Luffy while rolling to him in it again, it's not faster than G4 smh.

Katakuri wasn't faster than base Luffy, why would he be faster than the mode Oda gave Luffy specifically to beat Katakuri's CoO? Did Katakuri get a final form?

When will everyone listen to Luffy?

"Even against you, G4 won't lose!"

"The scary thing about you isn't your powers, its your Observation!"

Katakuri is dangerous because he's well trained and smart, not because he's ultra hax that can wipe his ass with high tiers and can't be touched by anyone. Luffy is the only person we've seen him fight, and we only know about his reputation. Lucci had arguably a scarier one, and he turned out to be a pussy (pun). He hasn't been hit and all that, but was he fighting Vista or Marco? Lucci hadn't run into any of the monsters out there when he was wrecking shit for all those years. Katakuri has never been presented as a top tier, just as someone for Luffy to overcome, same as all his villains.

Fans are placing Katakuri on this pedestal because he's cool, but the sad truth is hes not no diffing Doflamingo level fighters, no matter how badly people pray to Oda every night. That's not how OP works.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## MO (Feb 23, 2018)

Shrike said:


> Sure, but Katakuri has been fighting base Luffy for hours. "but but Luffy has gotten 10 times stronger!" okay, fucking prove it. The only thing that got stronger is Luffy's CoO, and that's mid fight, and Luffy has been dodging Katakuri way before that.


it was stated by zoro iirc that each island they go through they get stronger and stronger. So he got stronger. On top of that he fought cracker who he made him improve even more.


Shrike said:


> Luffy's Armament was pierced by DD's Awakening. Nobody wants to remember that. The same Awakening that literally fodderized base Luffy in a second and set him flying into a mountain and parasited him immediately after that whereas he had to go G4 to break the strings. Go and read chapter 790 again.


not on contact. it struggled a little bit. Plus DD armanent was never something special. Luffy never commented on how great it was like cracker or katakuri nor was it ever shown to be directly superior.


Shrike said:


> The same chapter will show you that Flamingo's Awakening is quite a bit better than Katakuri's overall, because it covers larger area and can easily capture targets. Katakuri is simply a lot stronger when it comes to power, but Flamingo is still more versatile.


not it's not. There is nothing that says katakuri can't cover a larger area and turn it all to mochi. Plus Katakuri with his awakening can make portuls that shoot punches that can send g4 flying out of nowhere. Doffy awakening could only stall  g4 luffy. Even in terms of versatility katakuri beats him. Mochi can suffocate,crush, and trap and still do many things.



Shrike said:


> I don't even want to get into some sort of stupid discussion, I just wanted to say that, as clear as it is that Katakuri wins this, you are overreacting; DD is strong.


dd is strong but katakuri is on a completly different level that him.


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## MYJC (Feb 23, 2018)

Katakuri mid diffs.


Doffy is underrated but he takes an L here. The only thing he can really do is stall with Awakening, I don't think anything else he has would work on Katakuri at all. Imagine Doffy vs. Dressrosa G4 Luffy, except that G4 doesn't run out and Luffy has much better CoO. That's about how the fight with Katakuri will go. Doffy can use Awakening and strings to delay the inevitable...but it's still inevitable.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nox (Feb 23, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> *Katakuri never bested G4 in speed, he's used his CoO to see attacks coming and dodge, that's it.* If you're referring to the time he got Luffy with that donut shit, Luffy was flying to him and extended his arm in that direction, and Katakuri ducked under his arm and went into the donut to catch him. He dodged with his body shift/CoO, so again, he didn't do that on pure reaction and speed, he saw the attack coming.
> 
> He has an entire conversation with Luffy while rolling to him in it again, it's not faster than G4 smh.
> 
> ...




Alright I'm not reading this wall. You obviously didn't even read the last chapter. Mingo is out of his depth and is getting his butt cheeks ripped apart. End off.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Kylo Ren (Feb 23, 2018)

this fight would look like a Logia user Vs a character who can't use Coa Haki and that match up are low diff at best, let's say Doffy stall him and call that mid diff. but the fight still one sided in favor of Katakuri.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 23, 2018)

NOX said:


> Alright I'm not reading this wall. You obviously didn't even read the last chapter. Mingo is out of his depth and is getting his butt cheeks ripped apart. End off.



How do you contradict yourself so thoroughly in the first 2 sentences?

You won't read my post, but you know that I didn't read the chapter?

So are you assuming and responding anyway, or did you read it and you're just lying for no reason. 

Nothing in this chapter indicated that Katakuri went Super Saiyan Blue and increased his speed to surpass G4. Being able to dodge attacks does not mean superior speed, especially since Katakuri is using CoO to dodge the attacks.

You know.

Like he was doing the whole fight. Which is the main reason Luffy has been losing.


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## xenos5 (Feb 23, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> How do you contradict yourself so thoroughly in the first 2 sentences?
> 
> You won't read my post, but you know that I didn't read the chapter?
> 
> ...



How can you match the speed of Snakeman (a G4 form entirely based on speed) but not be faster than Boundman? 

Katakuri not only dodged Snakeman’s Jet Culverin Gatling (Black Mamba), Luffy failed to dodge multiple attacks of Katakuri’s own and Katakuri could punch fast enough with Block Mochi to match the speed of Jet Culverin and clash with it.

Doflamingo was practically blitzed by Boundman from the very first few attacks (hit with a Kong Gun and Rhino Schneider before he could react). He would have no chance of hitting Snakeman due to it being even faster but Katakuri could do just that.


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## Dries Mertens (Feb 23, 2018)

Katakuri with very high difficulty in my opinion


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## Ruse (Feb 23, 2018)

mob said:


> Why does this thread even exist



Why not? We know kata wins but I’m interested in difficulty 

Some of you are acting like it’s WB or something


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## xenos5 (Feb 23, 2018)

Ruse said:


> Why not? We know kata wins but I’m interested in difficulty
> 
> *Some of you are acting like it’s WB or something*



Nah, it's just that all it takes is really simple ABC logic to determine the difficulty for Katakuri.

Snakeman >>> Boundman in speed. 

Boundman >> Doflamingo in speed.

So Snakeman is >>>>> Doflamingo in speed.

Katakuri = Snakeman in speed. 

So Katakuri is also >>>>> Doflamingo in speed.

Basically if you think Snakeman can blitz Doflamingo even worse than Boundman, Katakuri should also be able to blitz Doflamingo worse than boundman. 

And with a such a massive speed advantage low diff makes sense and it's very hard to see it going above mid diff. 

In combination with Katakuri using more piercing attacks rather than how Luffy uses only Blunt force attacks and Katakuri's blows would likely be more devastating over time the more piercing attacks he lands than Luffy's beatdown on Doflamingo was.


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## Magnet40 (Feb 23, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> And? He still fought for hours and NEEDED outside help (Nami taking advantage of the elemental weakness of the biscuit soldiers).
> 
> twice or not he was in better condition after using Gear 4 against Cracker than after when he used it against Doflamingo. That's a fact.
> 
> You don't see Luffy fight for many hours at all really, until the cracker fight. Do you have an explanation for that other than a stamina/endurance boost?



In the Cracker fight he’s not fighting for hours, he’s Eating. Not to say Luffy couldn’t fight for hours. Before Cracker he never had to fight for hours, 

He was Stronger than Hody
Stronger than Cesar 
Stronger than Chinjao
Wayyyyyyyyy Stronger than bellamy the Second Time

Stronger than Doflamingo (in Gear 4th) but thats for a LIMITED TIME... After Law SHREDDED DOFLAMINGO’s Organs and he was only holding them back together because of STRINGS im PRETTY SURE wasn’t going to last hours after that.

He’s been able to fight four hours since he jumped into the New World. Just not when he gets outta gear 4th


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 23, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> How can you match the speed of Snakeman (a G4 form entirely based on speed) but not be faster than Boundman?
> 
> Katakuri not only dodged Snakeman’s Jet Culverin Gatling (Black Mamba), Luffy failed to dodge multiple attacks of Katakuri’s own and Katakuri could punch fast enough with Block Mochi to match the speed of Jet Culverin and clash with it.
> 
> Doflamingo was practically blitzed by Boundman from the very first few attacks (hit with a Kong Gun and Rhino Schneider before he could react). He would have no chance of hitting Snakeman due to it being even faster but Katakuri could do just that.



The answer to that question is you can't match the speed of Snakeman if you can't match the speed of Boundman. Katakuri has done neither.

He has dodged attacks using his CoO. He always has been. That's why he hasn't been hit in years. Even people like Akainu have managed to get hit, Katakuri prides himself in being strategically sound and using his CoO to utmost efficiency whenever he can. He hasn't not gotten hit all these years because of all this fake speed from nowhere.

Oda has drawn Katakuri struggling to hit Luffy, complaining about not being able to hit Luffy, Luffy saying Katakuri's biggest strength is his CoO, Katakuri acknowledging that his CoO going out was the reason G4 blitz/bullied him. All that adds up to one thing, and the manga has consistently shown this. It doesn't matter if 8 hours later Luffy is shown bruised. A long battle would do that. What's important is that on panel, Luffy has successfully dodged a majority of Katakuri's attacks. Again, Katakuri even complains about this.

*Luffy is 100% faster than Katakuri. 
*
Katakuri is a top tier CoO user. The whole reason the wank for him started was his future sight helping him to appear untouchable. That's why the moment his CoO went out he got manhandled by Boundman, just like everyone else. When he got CoO back, he could counterattack. Oda can't make this any more clear.

Personal opinion and interpretation are not enough to change the fact that Katakuri has fought 99% of this fight with the ability to see where and when his opponent will attack him. Him dodging an attack he sees coming does not put him on the same level of speed as his opponent.


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## xenos5 (Feb 23, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> The answer to that question is you can't match the speed of Snakeman if you can't match the speed of Boundman. Katakuri has done neither.
> 
> He has dodged attacks using his CoO. He always has been. That's why he hasn't been hit in years. Even people like Akainu have managed to get hit, Katakuri prides himself in being strategically sound and using his CoO to utmost efficiency whenever he can. He hasn't not gotten hit all these years because of all this fake speed from nowhere.
> 
> ...



*CoO is NOT a complete replacement for physical speed*

Knowing what happens five seconds in the future is meaningless if you do not have the speed to act upon it.

There is no better of example of Katakuri being relative to Snakeman in speed than him having a straight up slugfest with Luffy and actually getting slightly more blows in. In close range you have much less time to react to attacks and respond accordingly.

And when did Luffy dodge the majority of Katakuri's attacks exactly? Luffy has been beaten to shit this whole fight because Katakuri lands attacks much more often attacks than not. Katakuri himself has said that Luffy only could catch a glimpse of the future *INFREQUENTLY* as you can see in the image Don King posted (At this post  ).

Another thing you seem to keep forgetting is... DOFLAMINGO IS NOT LUFFY. He does not have CoO that grows at a large rate mid-battle. His CoO is not on par with post CoO boost Luffy.

Katakuri has achieved feats that would be straight up impossible for Doflamingo to accomplish. I doubt Doflamingo could tag Snakeman Luffy at all with his attacks, and he likely wouldn't be able to react in time to dodge any attacks from Snakeman Luffy either.

Katakuri uses his own speed IN TANDEM with his CoO. That is why he was thrown off by being angered and unable to use CoO after his face was revealed. That does not mean his own speed is unimpressive like you seem to be implying. If that was the case it wouldn't matter how far Katakuri saw into the future, Snakeman's attacks would always land before he could move out of the way. ESPECIALLY at Close Range.


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## Spirit King (Feb 23, 2018)

Jet culverin is hard counter to relying on CoO in the first place. If your substantially slower than it even if you were somehow able to get out of the way with CoO Luffy can react to your preemptive movements (which could be comparatively slow as shit) and hit you anyway with a faster attack. Moving takes times and Luffy can re-adjust to you movements. You have to be outright faster than a Jet culverin to dodge it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Quipchaque (Feb 23, 2018)

@xenos5
@DoctorLaw 

guys you are really overcomplicating this topic 
The answer is simple. Luffy is faster in movement speed but Katakuri is faster in reaction speed. So Kata can use his coo to dodge Luffy and cut off his movements while Luffy can teleport and appear out of nowhere in front of Kata which is why both get hits in on each other every now and then.


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## xenos5 (Feb 23, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> @xenos5
> @DoctorLaw
> 
> guys you are really overcomplicating this topic
> The answer is simple. Luffy is faster in movement speed but Katakuri is faster in reaction speed. So Kata can use his coo to dodge Luffy and cut off his movements while Luffy can teleport and appear out of nowhere in front of Kata which is why both get hits in on each other every now and then.



The thing is, there are certain feats you can’t accomplish without a certain level of reaction speed AND movement speed.

If you just have reaction speed much higher than your movement speed than there would be attacks you could clearly see coming but still would not be able to dodge as your body couldn’t respond in time.

So Katakuri still needs movement speed relative to G4 Snakeman to be able to dodge certain attacks, or better yet land attacks of his own.


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## Quipchaque (Feb 23, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> The thing is, there are certain feats you can’t accomplish without a certain level of reaction speed AND movement speed.
> 
> If you just have reaction speed much higher than your movement speed than there would be attacks you could clearly see coming but still would not be able to dodge as your body couldn’t respond in time.
> 
> So Katakuri still needs movement speed relative to G4 Snakeman to be able to dodge certain attacks, or better yet land attacks of his own.



Nah you are overthinking this again. If Luffy goes straight at you then Katakuri doesn´t need to have equal speed to Snakeman to hit you like what happened in the last panel of the current chapter. If Luffy stands still and tries to hit kata with a gatling and he avoids it with swift reaction speed then of course Kata will have time to close the gap and tag Luffy. It´s things like that that make the battle even. Not katakuri magically rivaling G4 speed which is one of the highest in the series at current point in time.

Your point would be valid if we see Luffy teleport away and Katakuri suddenly catches up with that.


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## xenos5 (Feb 23, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Nah you are overthinking this again. If Luffy goes straight at you then Katakuri doesn´t need to have equal speed to Snakeman to hit you like what happened in the last panel of the current chapter. If Luffy stands still and tries to hit kata with a gatling and he avoids it with swift reaction speed then of course Kata will have time to close the gap and tag Luffy. It´s things like that that make the battle even. Not katakuri magically rivaling G4 speed which is one of the highest in the series at current point in time.
> 
> Your point would be valid if we see Luffy teleport away and Katakuri suddenly catches up with that.



Did Snakeman Luffy manage to dodge or avoid any of Katakuri’s attacks? I’m pretty sure every attack Katakuri used in the latest chapter landed.

Even with superior CoO landing attacks on a supposedly faster opponent would require some trickier shit like redirecting the attack mid-way yet Katakuri has not needed to do that to land Block Mochi punches or kicks.

Katakuri even blocked a Jet Culverin with his foot that crossed a massive distance with a lot of turns for it to get speed boosts with along the way (as we know Jer Culverin gets faster the longer it goes).

And what do you mean magically? Katakuri stated from the outset he was superior to Base Luffy in every stat and he’s been proving that ever since. Luffy can only really challenge Katakuri in G4.


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## Quipchaque (Feb 23, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Did Snakeman Luffy manage to dodge or avoid any of Katakuri’s attacks? I’m pretty sure every attack Katakuri used in the latest chapter landed.
> 
> Even with superior CoO landing attacks on a supposedly faster opponent would require some trickier shit like redirecting the attack mid-way yet Katakuri has not needed to do that to land Block Mochi punches or kicks.
> 
> ...



Man honestly you are giving me a headache now. Snakeman Luffy did not even _try_ to dodge Katakuri. He was going for attacks of his own and trying to catch Kata with his unpredictability. Running away from an opponent won´t win the battle for you. Also you need to understand that Luffy doesn´t have G4 level reaction speed just because he can teleport. It´s 2 different things. Just stop overthinking this now.


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## xenos5 (Feb 23, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Man honestly you are giving me a headache now. Snakeman Luffy did not even _try_ to dodge Katakuri. He was going for attacks of his own and trying to catch Kata with his unpredictability. Running away from an opponent won´t win the battle for you. Also you need to understand that Luffy doesn´t have G4 level reaction speed just because he can teleport. It´s 2 different things. Just stop overthinking this now.



Why did Luffy train his CoO in Base for so long if he didn’t care about dodging?

And how would Luffy change the direction of a Jet Culverin mid-flight if he couldn’t react to the speed of it?

Lastly. How could Katakuri cover such a massive distance transformed into a Mochi Donut and Luffy not be able to dodge or counter attack in time if Katakuri was not extremely fast in that form?


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## Imagine (Feb 23, 2018)

To assume Katakuri is only comparable to G4 Luffy in reactions is ludicrous. Doflamingo even managed to dodge a Culerine. You still need some level of speed to dodge these attacks even if CoO helps you see them coming.

If Enel saw one of those attacks he sure as hell isn't physically going to get out of the way in time before getting pummeled.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Quipchaque (Feb 24, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Why did Luffy train his CoO in Base for so long if he didn’t care about dodging?
> 
> And how would Luffy change the direction of a Jet Culverin mid-flight if he couldn’t react to the speed of it?
> 
> Lastly. How could Katakuri cover such a massive distance transformed into a Mochi Donut and Luffy not be able to dodge or counter attack in time if Katakuri was not extremely fast in that form?



Honestly you won´t quit until I declare Luffy/Katakuri to be the ultimate King of everything huh?
I didn´t say Luffy didn´t care about dodging, I merely said he didn´t try to dodge in chapter 895. Reread it and you will see I am right.

It is his own arm mate lol. Why would he be unable to control his arm if he already knows before what he wants to do. No need to attempt hyping Luffy´s reaction just to hype Katakuri above that.

Well it is a difference whether or not you are "extremely fast" or "as fast as G4 in movement speed". I never argued against the first option I only argue against the second one. Besides Luffy was surprised by his weird technique you saw the look on his face?


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## tejas8055 (Feb 24, 2018)

Lol Katakuri is the worst thing to have happened to Doflamingo Wankdom.


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## Jossaff (Feb 24, 2018)

Kata wins High(high) diff


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## Spirit King (Feb 24, 2018)

tejas8055 said:


> Lol Katakuri is the worst thing to have happened to Doflamingo Wankdom.


Basically it's just embarrassing at this point. It's ok for a previous arc villain to be more than the fair bit weaker than the next. Let it go.


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## Quipchaque (Feb 24, 2018)

Spirit King said:


> Basically it's just embarrassing at this point. It's ok for a previous arc villain to be more than the fair bit weaker than the next. Let it go.



I wouldn´t even say it makes Doflamingo look weak it´s just that Katakuri is really really strong. Nobody should act surprised if that guy is able to extreme diff against an admiral. He has everything you need for that.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 24, 2018)

Shrike said:


> Sure, but Katakuri has been fighting base Luffy for hours. "but but Luffy has gotten 10 times stronger!" okay, fucking prove it.


 you already said the proof.

The fact that Katakuri was beating G4 boundman. While Doffy was losing to a weaker version of it

Doflamingo gets no or low diffed by a serious katakuri

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 24, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Honestly you won´t quit until I declare Luffy/Katakuri to be the ultimate King of everything huh?



Nah, just believe Katakuri and G4 Snakeman Luffy are more equal than you think. Katakuri's combat speed is not far below his reaction speed IMO.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> I didn´t say Luffy didn´t care about dodging, I merely said he didn´t try to dodge in chapter 895. Reread it and you will see I am right.



He didn't try to dodge or wasn't able to dodge in time. There's no proof Luffy would just suddenly stop caring about dodging so I think it's the latter rather than the former.




DiscoZoro20 said:


> It is his own arm mate lol. Why would he be unable to control his arm if he already knows before what he wants to do. No need to attempt hyping Luffy´s reaction just to hype Katakuri above that.



You don't seem to understand. if Luffy could not react to the speed of jet culverin he would not be able to precisely control it even though its his arm.

He could still fire off the jet culverin but precisely controlling it so it turns at the exact time he wants it to would require him to react to its speed since otherwise it would just continue straight for much longer than he intends it to.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Well it is a difference whether or not you are "extremely fast" or "as fast as G4 in movement speed". I never argued against the first option I only argue against the second one. Besides Luffy was surprised by his weird technique you saw the look on his face?



Just being surprised is one thing but Katakuri covered a massive distance which should've given Luffy plenty of time to get his bearings and get out of the way. Yet he didn't because he was not prepared for how fast Mochi Donut Katakuri was.


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## Quipchaque (Feb 24, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Nah, just believe Katakuri and G4 Snakeman Luffy are more equal than you think. Katakuri's combat speed is not far below his reaction speed IMO.



I don´t think so. I too believe Katakuri and G4 Luffy are about even I just think that both have different advantages over each other. There is no proof for Kata´s movement speed being comparable to that of Luffy. It certainly never got the portrayal as such.



> He didn't try to dodge or wasn't able to dodge in time. There's no proof Luffy would just suddenly stop caring about dodging so I think it's the latter rather than the former.



Just reread the chapter and show me how many panels you find that look like Luffy wanted to dodge. I don´t think you will find any so the proof is in the pudding.



> You don't seem to understand. if Luffy could not react to the speed of jet culverin he would not be able to precisely control it even though its his arm.
> 
> He could still fire off the jet culverin but precisely controlling it so it turns at the exact time he wants it to would require him to react to its speed since otherwise it would just continue straight for much longer than he intends it to.



No I understand that but it is a completely different thing if you don´t have to avoid it but only follow the attack with your eyes and pay attention to it. Moving your body out of the way while not even knowing if an opponent will attack you at any moment is a completely different matter.




> Just being surprised is one thing but Katakuri covered a massive distance which should've given Luffy plenty of time to get his bearings and get out of the way. Yet he didn't because he was not prepared for how fast Mochi Donut Katakuri was.



Exactly so we can gather from that that Katakuri´s Mochi awakeing speed is good and that Luffy´s reaction speed is a bit lower than Kata´s. Nothing about that suggests that he could for example jump off the Dressrosa mountain and suddenly teleport straight into Doffy´s face though. That´s just an assumption. G4 on the other hand has such a feat so it certainly deserves the benefit of the doubt.


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## X18999 (Feb 25, 2018)

Considering at their level extreme diff fights can last days leaving even the winner in bad shape... even if takes Katakuri an hour or so to beat down Doflamingo it should still be considered low diff... anything else would be damn near no-dif since Katakuri wouldn't get hit.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## CharIotte Katakuri (Feb 25, 2018)

Hm.. I must be honest. Doflamingo would probably give me a little hard time since he is quite crafty. However, no matter the craftiness, a bug is still a bug. Even without my CoO, my speed alone is equal to G4 Snakeman, and my CoA is stronger than Luffy's at G4 Boundman. This alone tells me that my fight with Mingo should be my win at low medium diff. While I am here, since I can see a little bit into the future, I can tell you I will most likely win in this fight against Luffy. Please tune in to this week's chapter, where I shall emerge victorious. Thank you.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1 | Informative 1


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## Lord Stark (Feb 25, 2018)

CharIotte Katakuri said:


> Hm.. I must be honest. Doflamingo would probably give me a little hard time since he is quite crafty. However, no matter the craftiness, a bug is still a bug. Even without my CoO, my speed alone is equal to G4 Snakeman, and my CoA is stronger than Luffy's at G4 Boundman. This alone tells me that my fight with Mingo should be my win at low medium diff. While I am here, since I can see a little bit into the future, I can tell you I will most likely win in this fight against Luffy. Please tune in to this week's chapter, where I shall emerge victorious. Thank you.



Katakuri-sama!!! Sugoooooiiii

Reactions: Like 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 25, 2018)

CharIotte Katakuri said:


> Hm.. I must be honest. Doflamingo would probably give me a little hard time since he is quite crafty. However, no matter the craftiness, a bug is still a bug. Even without my CoO, my speed alone is equal to G4 Snakeman, and my CoA is stronger than Luffy's at G4 Boundman. This alone tells me that my fight with Mingo should be my win at low medium diff. While I am here, since I can see a little bit into the future, I can tell you I will most likely win in this fight against Luffy. Please tune in to this week's chapter, where I shall emerge victorious. Thank you.


 You need to be scared of Zoro


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## savior2005 (Feb 25, 2018)

I now think Katakuri would win low diff. He's pretty much a permanent G4 luffy with better COO, so he's harder to hit. And he has lethal moves with his trident. So unlikely luffy, Katakuri can simply stab doffy through the heart.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## X18999 (Feb 26, 2018)

savior2005 said:


> I now think Katakuri would win low diff. He's pretty much a permanent G4 luffy with better COO, so he's harder to hit. And he has lethal moves with his trident. So unlikely luffy, Katakuri can simply stab doffy through the heart.



Which is why Luffy needs to grab a set of Katars... he doesn't even need to learn how to fight with them... just use them with his normal punches... Katakuri would already be dead.


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Feb 26, 2018)

It' not even debatable anymore. Even Cracker had a better showing against G4. But I guess for the sake of making sense we can say DD is close to Cracker.

And Luffy seems like he went through a ridiculous leap of power from last arc to this arc. First with the 11 hours against Cracker, whose defense could stop G4 Luffy and could even harm Luffy with his sword. And then now Katakuri. He got beaten to a pulp for hours and Katakuri can actually fight against G4 while DD couldn't even do anything. Maybe Pda sort of messed it up?


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 26, 2018)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> It' not even debatable anymore. *Even Cracker had a better showing against G4*. But I guess for the sake of making sense we can say DD is close to Cracker.
> 
> And Luffy seems like he went through a ridiculous leap of power from last arc to this arc. First with the 11 hours against Cracker, whose defense could stop G4 Luffy and could even harm Luffy with his sword. And then now Katakuri. He got beaten to a pulp for hours and Katakuri can actually fight against G4 while DD couldn't even do anything. Maybe Pda sort of messed it up?



Cracker's defense couldn't stop G4. A haki covered biscuit fell apart in 2 hits, why in the world would G4 not be able to beat the regular biscuits with regular hits quickly? When he used Kong Organ he broke through their shields/defenses instantly, Cracker can just spam his DF and repair damaged biscuits. His defense wasn't impressive compared to G4, not at all.

Katakuri is beating Luffy because he has advanced CoO. Not because he's that much stronger than Luffy is. Luffy didn't need a "leap in power" to fight Katakuri, he needed to use his DF in a clever way to defeat his opponent, the same way he does with every fight. Luffy's CoO glimpses that people are calling asspulls aren't even that serious. He sees one or two attacks every 30 or 40 minutes of Katakuri hitting his face in. Luffy wasn't perfectly predicting attacks all over the place.

That's why he's using Snakeman to fight Katakuri, he's optimizing his DF abilities to defeat an opponent that is on his level. Katakuri isn't above Luffy, his power is just new and overwhelming.

Luffy needed a balanced form of hax to beat Doflamingo hax with *Boundman
*
He needed power and sturdiness hax to beat Cracker hax with *Tankman*

He needs speed hax to defeat Katakuri CoO hax with *Snakeman*

Oda always manages to do this.

Crocodile is introduced, wrecks Luffy, everyone is convinced he's unstoppable. Bam, Luffy adapts, wins.

Lucci is introduced, wrecks Luffy, everyone is convinced he's unstoppable. Bam, Luffy adapts, wins.

Doflamingo is introduced, wrecks Luffy's third strongest, peer, and Luffy, everyone is convinced he's unstoppable. Bam, Luffy adapts, wins.

Every single time, fanbase is certain the enemy must be damn near top tier if they're beating Luffy.

I remember the days when people were sure Vergo could high diff Luffy based on one ass whooping.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Spirit King (Feb 26, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Cracker's defense couldn't stop G4. A haki covered biscuit fell apart in 2 hits, why in the world would G4 not be able to beat the regular biscuits with regular hits quickly? When he used Kong Organ he broke through their shields/defenses instantly, Cracker can just spam his DF and repair damaged biscuits. His defense wasn't impressive compared to G4, not at all.
> 
> Katakuri is beating Luffy because he has advanced CoO. Not because he's that much stronger than Luffy is. Luffy didn't need a "leap in power" to fight Katakuri, he needed to use his DF in a clever way to defeat his opponent, the same way he does with every fight. Luffy's CoO glimpses that people are calling asspulls aren't even that serious. He sees one or two attacks every 30 or 40 minutes of Katakuri hitting his face in. Luffy wasn't perfectly predicting attacks all over the place.
> 
> ...


The Kong organ thing is anime-only filler we don't actually see the shields break in the manga. All we know is that those biscuit soldiers were able to advance upon the kong organ attack.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 26, 2018)

Spirit King said:


> The Kong organ thing is anime-only filler we don't actually see the shields break in the manga. All we know is that those biscuit soldiers were able to advance upon the kong organ attack.



Read chapter 838, they shatter, and then Cracker tries the sneak attack through the crumbling dust.


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## Imagine (Feb 26, 2018)

The important part is that they needed multiple strikes before breaking. Entire characters wouldn't even be able to stand up to a single hit.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 26, 2018)

Imagine said:


> The important part is that they needed multiple strikes before breaking. Entire characters wouldn't even be able to stand up to a single hit.



*He beat Cracker's haki in 1 hit, and used another to completely destroy his armor.
*
Why would it take Kong Organ multiple hits to destroy something significantly weaker?

Doflamingo tanked way more hits than Cracker did even without haki and still kept fighting. Doflamingo's haki is inferior to Cracker's, but his endurance and durability compensate to the point that he actually surpasses Cracker in terms of defensive feats. Cracker simply spammed his DF, only reason that fight even lasted. His defense maxes out at stopping G3 level attacks, which is still impressive, but not enough to put him on this pedestal beyond Doflamingo.

If G4 wrecked Doflamingo, it would naturally be capable of wrecking Cracker. If G4 can't get to Cracker, like it couldn't get to Doflamingo for a while, it can't wreck.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## CharIotte Katakuri (Feb 26, 2018)

DoctorLaw doesn't know what he is talking about at all. It is a common mistake where people, in an attempt to grasp straws, would put aside a specific aspect of an overpowered villain, in this case my CoO, in order to make their argument feasible. Before going into anything else, my CoO alone proves that I am far above Doflamingo. Even if my CoA is somehow below Luffy's G4 form (which I disagree), my CoO alone is more than enough of a reason why I would defeat Doffy mid diff.

Also, Luffy DID get a huge power-up mid fight. His power up is in his CoO. I think it's silly to just put aside this fact as though it was just an after thought. It's not an after thought. It is equally as important as CoA, and a huge boost in CoO is, to me, the same as if Luffy suddenly got a huge boost in his CoA, or even discovering G5 mid fight.

Doflamingo, from the get-go was shown to possess far inferior CoA when being destroyed by Luffy. Whereas I landed on my feet despite 3 consecutive G4 attacks, and easily brushing it off in the middle of the fight. Despite the multiple G4 Boundman, haki imbued attacks, it left no significant damage on me. I have proven to have equal if not greater CoA haki than G4 Luffy. In fact, every time I landed my haki imbued attacks on to Luffy in G4 Snakeman form, he was hurt a lot more than I was from his attacks. Granted, seeing how Luffy was smart enough to avoid fighting me in Boundman form, we will never get to see whether or not my hits would be equally effective when he is in that form.

In terms of speed, I am matching G4 Snakeman speed. Regardless if I can see into the future, if you are that much faster than me, you will simply never miss even if I can see it coming. Dodging snakeman's black mamba is, in itself, a speed feat that demonstrates that I am far superior to G4 luffy's Boundman form, and of course, Luffy's base speed. As we all know, Doffy could not even dodge boundman's version of python, much less hope to dodge something like black mamba. I win this low mid diff, and only because Doffy would run away like Luffy did in the presence of my godly powers.


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Feb 26, 2018)

I was going to reply to DoctorLaw but the more I read his posts the more insane he seems. 
 WTF is this guy on about?


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## GrizzlyClaws (Feb 27, 2018)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> I was going to reply to DoctorLaw but the more I read his posts the more insane he seems.
> WTF is this guy on about?



Page 1 in this thread. 



DoctorLaw said:


> You know what? I'll be honest, I have a bias against Katakuri.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 27, 2018)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> I was going to reply to DoctorLaw but the more I read his posts the more insane he seems.
> WTF is this guy on about?



You were going to reply but you don't have an answer.

Make claims that are false or completely misleading, get called out on it, attack the person pointing it out instead of justifying what you said.


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 27, 2018)

GrizzlyClaws said:


> Page 1 in this thread.



A fanboy calling me out for bias.

And again, the confident use of an emoji, lol.


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## Imagine (Feb 27, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> *He beat Cracker's haki in 1 hit, and used another to completely destroy his armor.
> *
> Why would it take Kong Organ multiple hits to destroy something significantly weaker?
> 
> ...


Incorrect because Cracker is stronger than Doflamingo. Luffy states that Cracker's CoA is the toughest he's gone up against at the time, that includes Doflamingo's. Cracker could cut through G4 Luffy while Doflamingo couldn't scratch him.

Luffy never beat Cracker's haki, he reflected Cracker with the bouancy of G4's body. Cracker was defeated by getting tossed into his numerous Biscuit soldiers. The same soldiers Luffy had constant trouble getting pasted and had to be weakened.


DoctorLaw said:


> A fanboy calling me out for bias.
> 
> And again, the confident use of an emoji, lol.


You've already admitted to being biased against Katakuri in this thread so you're no better.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Feb 27, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> A fanboy calling me out for bias.
> 
> And again, the confident use of an emoji, lol.



>His confession of bias against Katakuri gets quoted
>"You are a fanboy"

Is this all you got to defend yourself?

I'm not even into these stupid fan wars. But the fact you are accusing me to be a fanboy for quoting your confession about bias says more about you than about me.

Also

>Using an emoji is a sign of insecurity

Okay then.


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 27, 2018)

Imagine said:


> Incorrect because Cracker is stronger than Doflamingo. Luffy states that Cracker's CoA is the toughest he's gone up against at the time, that includes Doflamingo's. Cracker could cut through G4 Luffy while Doflamingo couldn't scratch him.
> 
> Luffy never beat Cracker's haki, he reflected Cracker with the bouancy of G4's body. Cracker was defeated by getting tossed into his numerous Biscuit soldiers. The same soldiers Luffy had constant trouble getting pasted and had to be weakened.
> 
> You've already admitted to being biased against Katakuri in this thread so you're no better.


 While I agree that Cracker's CoA > Doffy's, Viz's translation says something along the lines of his CoA just being really tough, not the strongest

If you really care, I can get the scan for you


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## Imagine (Feb 27, 2018)

I don't.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 27, 2018)

Imagine said:


> Incorrect because Cracker is stronger than Doflamingo. Luffy states that Cracker's CoA is the toughest he's gone up against at the time, that includes Doflamingo's. Cracker could cut through G4 Luffy while Doflamingo couldn't scratch him.
> 
> Luffy never beat Cracker's haki, he reflected Cracker with the bouancy of G4's body. Cracker was defeated by getting tossed into his numerous Biscuit soldiers. The same soldiers Luffy had constant trouble getting pasted and had to be weakened.
> 
> You've already admitted to being biased against Katakuri in this thread so you're no better.



Funny, in the post you quoted me on I specifically say Doflamingo has inferior haki. His durability + haki gives him superior defense to Cracker.

2 hits beat Biscuit coated in haki
1 hit beat actually beat Cracker.

Doflamingo tanked more hits without haki defense. 

That’s all manga facts. 

Doflamingo can take more G4 hits without being defeated, he has better overall defense.


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## Canute87 (Feb 27, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Funny, in the post you quoted me on I specifically say Doflamingo has inferior haki. His durability + haki gives him superior defense to Cracker.
> 
> 2 hits beat Biscuit coated in haki
> 1 hit beat actually beat Cracker.
> ...



The ricochet that took out cracker was more devastating than any of the hits flamingo had received.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## DoctorLaw (Feb 27, 2018)

GrizzlyClaws said:


> >His confession of bias against Katakuri gets quoted
> >"You are a fanboy"
> 
> Is this all you got to defend yourself?
> ...



You missed the point of what I said.

I thought it was funny that a fan who won’t admit his bias (which is obvious if you think Katakuri no diffs an arc villain Luffy nearly died to a week ago) was calling out a non-fan who was forthcoming with their own views.

I stated my bias myself, I’m not afraid to be called out on it. That’s why I said it. Mind numbing how this puts me in a position to “defend myself.”

I’d also say me “defending myself” is me using the manga to defend my position instead of just making things up like Cracker’s defense being able to stop G4.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Feb 28, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> you think Katakuri no diffs an arc villain Luffy nearly died to a week ago



I do? You know more about me than I do myself. Scary. 



DoctorLaw said:


> I stated my bias myself, I’m not afraid to be called out on it.



That's good for you. I respect that. It doesn't help your cause though that you are immediately lashing out at someone for pointing your confession out. And making stuff up to try making that person look biased himself.


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## Raiden34 (Feb 28, 2018)

Lol. 1 Vote for Doffy, 46 votes for Kata.

Can someone remove the poll, it's hilarious.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 28, 2018)

The reason Doffy fans hate Kat. Is because usually in shounen after a major saga the next couple of Amtagonist are not going to be overwhelmingly more powerful than the major Saga Antagonist.

Not only did Oda shit on Doffy eith Cracker. He proceeded to sodomize with Katakuri. Making him a fucking beast that. Even of he loses. Everyone will still love him because he's fucking Katakuri.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## A I Z E N (Feb 28, 2018)

With recent chapter's its clear that Joker is an easy Mid Diff fight for Kata.

It's evident Luffy has had multiple G4 variants & only used his base form to defeat Joker & while Luffy was in G4 Joker couldn't really do much but barely keep him at bay during round 2 of G4.

In all honesty if Kata fights serious from the start Joker gets bodied bad.

Katakuri>>Joker

Reactions: Like 1


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## B Rabbit (Feb 28, 2018)

I love Doflamingo don't get me wrong.

Katakuri is just a whole nother level.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## DA hawk (Mar 1, 2018)

Katakuri mid diff.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 10, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> One kick, one heavily cracked leg bone from the kicking specialist.
> 
> Got any proof that Sanji didn't use haki? Sanji isn't able to use hardening, Vergo is, when someone can use hardening it becomes their default haki and they never use the other stuff, Sanji can't use that cuz he's not good enough at buso (he specializes in kenbunshoku)
> Not to mention Vergo is VASTLY superior in buso than Sanji.
> ...



*Law is vastly stronger than Zoro

swordsmanship:*
zoro is a real swordsman unlike law who combines his sword with ope ope no mi.
i dont mean that he is bad as  a swordsman.law can use his sword very well as he was able to block doflamingo's attacks very well,but i think he is no match for zoro in swordsmanship

*in terms of physical strenght and endurance:*
I dont think law comes anywhere near zoro's level in this  component,zoro is like a mini whitebeard,he did not even fall after taking luffy's enormous pain in thriller bark,even arlong was surprised and scared after seeing zoro's scar and couldnt imagine how zoro was fighting inspite of those wounds.

on  the other hand law relays on his devil fruit and he can teleport very easily and avoid strong attacks .so law is very careful,but his endurance is not that good while zoro works out like this:


*Speed:*
of course zoro is very fast  likely faster than law too but law is able to teleport with the help of  devil fruit ability Ope Ope no mi,so law wins in this category,but it depends on the lenght of the fight,law's devil consume s lot of stamina and needs much more energy and law is not going to last forever

*haki:*
law was able to cut vergo's full body haki.
according to oda each monster trio specialize in a particular type of haki,sanji specializes in observation haki,so zoro should specialize in arnament haki.
in dressrosa zoro cut a mountain  sized pica's body very easily and split a full haki body pica easily.
zoro probably has better arnament haki than law because he has been training under mihawk for 2 years
vergo might be  a little stronger than pica.
zoro was playing around with pica,while law was probably used everything against doflamingo considering that his main goal was to take revenge on him.probably we saw zoro at 30%


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 10, 2018)

What evidence do you have that Law can't match Zoro in swordsmanship even without his devil fruit? Not that it matters, his devil fruit is literally his combat style and his swordsmanship is simply his paint brush to create certain effects.

Endurance is up to debate but the fact is that Law would beat Zoro within the first half minute of the fight at the very most, Law was able to hang with Ishoo and Law. Law would run out of stamina first cuz his attacks require stamina to use but that's about it, the fight would be short.

As far as physical strength, that lifting feat isn't impressive in the least for pre timeskip honestly, captain morgan with his axe hand swung at luffy and the wind of the slash cut through layers of brick and metal linked fence.
Honestly that was just a regular work out, franky could probably replicate that lifting feat pre timeskip. Also it's a pretty common aspect that the supernova were vastly stronger than even luffy pre timeskip and that the timeskip let him catch up to them and be one of the stronger ones. Urouge and Drake showed the capacity to defeat a pacifista pre timeskip (they got up from the attack with a smile on their face ready to have a good time individually and were only hit due to not understanding the characteristics of a pacifista or what they actually were)
Law was hinted to have haki pre timeskip
Bonney speed blitzed the fuck out of Zoro even though she could turn him into a kid from a distance or whatever, just to create the scene for the celestrial dragon.

But yeah, Law's endurance isn't good? By the time he reached doflamingo at the end of the arc he was at 40% stamina, this is because he was using all his strong moves that weakened him throughout the first part of the arc when he fought doflamingo and ishoo. Let's not ignore how easily sanji was taken out by vergo and doflamingo, zoro is stronger but let's not joke, doflamingo would low diff Zoro within 30 seconds.

As far as speed:
Zoro through his pica fight has actually shown a very large weakness in speed, this is likely due to the fact that he mainly trains in arm strength but he was physically incapable of catching up to pica and his speed was vastly weaker than orlumbus's arm strength's ability to throw him. Zoro's weakest attribute is his speed and it's why he couldn't defeat pica more easily (who was only trebol and diamante level, if not weaker than trebol)

It's been made pretty obvious that although they have their specialty (like everyone), that Luffy's haki is superior to theirs. Luffy specializes in haoshoku, but he has stronger kenbunshoku than sanji and stronger buso than zoro. Though this might just be that he was trained by a better teacher. Anyway cutting Vergo is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cutting Pica
You're ignoring one very obvious point: Zoro himself said that the level of haki matters, not the technique, the technique simply allows one to do different things like coat  a weapon, their full body, a fist, etc in haki. Full body haki isn't a power level, it's a technique that vergo likely taught pica who by all reasonable evaluations of his power, is probably a kenbunshoku specialist. Vergo has been built up as nothing less than one of the best buso users in the series to date. It wouldn't surprise me if he had better buso than doflamingo.

Training under Mihawk for 2 years doesn't particularly matter considering Law seemed to have haki already, I actually wouldn't be surprised if Doflamingo and his crew taught Law haki back when he was a kid during his training with them, I mean why wouldn't they?

Vergo is VASTLY stronger than Pica lol. Doflamingo is Luffy, Vergo is Zoro, Rosinante was Sanji, Pica is Franky, Trebol is Robin, Diamante is Brook. Zoro struggled with the franky of the crew, Vergo is night and day stronger. Pica is weaker than Sanji, Vergo no diff'd sanji casually without actually using his combat style, buso, or rokushiki (he also took the fight more leisurely than sanji did)

Zoro was physically unable to defeat pica since he's so slow running speed wise, he wasn't bloodlusted or anything but it wasn't a casual victory, nor can you deny that he required help.


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## Luceus (Mar 12, 2018)

Katakuri very high difficulty 

Doffy will give him hell


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## xenos5 (Mar 12, 2018)

Luceus said:


> Katakuri very high difficulty
> 
> Doffy will give him hell



How so? 

Can Doffy dodge attacks from someone who can land attacks on G4 Snakeman Luffy?

Can he land attacks on someone who could essentially dodge a Jet Culverin Gatling from G4 Snakeman Luffy (Black Mamba)?

If not then he isn't touching Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Luceus (Mar 13, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> How so?
> 
> Can Doffy dodge attacks from someone who can land attacks on G4 Snakeman Luffy?
> 
> ...


I'm the kind of reader who thinks Doffy lost much because of Law so I dunno

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## xenos5 (Mar 13, 2018)

Luceus said:


> I'm the kind of reader who thinks Doffy lost much because of Law so I dunno



The fact of the matter is Boundman Luffy was clearly faster than Doffy. 

Snakeman Luffy is a high amount faster than Boundman (due to it being a speed based form).

I doubt Doffy could react to Snakeman Luffy's attacks or land any attacks on him with his level of speed. Someone who can dodge a Jet Culverin Gatling (Black Mamba) from Snakeman Luffy as Katakuri did shouldn't have any trouble dodging the attacks of a much slower opponent like Doffy.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 16, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> What evidence do you have that Law can't match Zoro in swordsmanship even without his devil fruit? Not that it matters, his devil fruit is literally his combat style and his swordsmanship is simply his paint brush to create certain effects.
> 
> Endurance is up to debate but the fact is that Law would beat Zoro within the first half minute of the fight at the very most, Law was able to hang with Ishoo and Law. Law would run out of stamina first cuz his attacks require stamina to use but that's about it, the fight would be short.
> 
> ...



You do realize that by the time sanji fought vergo ,his body was already heavily damaged when nami was inside his body right?

Also remember when sanji said that vergo's body is very hard?

It indicates that vergo did use rokushiki.

If Sanji's body was in a proper shape and not damaged ,vergo was sanji would indeed be a tough fight,I think vergo would win but it would not be an easy win.

Sanji didn't even use any of his strongest attack which he has learnt at kamabakka island

And seruously doflamingo would low difficulty Zoro?on what basis are you saying that?

Sure doflamingo would win but it would be at least mid difficulty win.zoro has trained under the Strongest warlord after all.

Zoro defeated pica with low to mid difficulty at the most.i mean yeah he required orlumbus's help but outside of that he really didn't need anyone's help.

Law has not really shown any great skill in terms of swordsmenship without using his devil fruit.it would be average at the most.

Law is strong but he is a bit too overreliant on his devil fruit

How is vergo vastly stronger than pica?they seem to be pretty much equal in strength.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 16, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> You do realize that by the time sanji fought vergo ,his body was already heavily damaged when nami was inside his body right?
> 
> Also remember when sanji said that vergo's body is very hard?
> 
> ...


You mean by the same attack that Usopp was hit by?

Sorry but Vergo without using his combat style (he only used kicks), not using busoshoku, not using rokushiki, and not being serious (sanji was serious) made a total joke of him.

Vergo is Law and Smoker leveled, stronger than Zoro.
Sanji is no match.

Vergo's body is hard naturally, without using tekkai, he's themed after a terminator pretty much, his body is vastly durable and he's an absolute tank who fights through any pain that happens and keeps coming, all without rokushiki. 

Didn't even use his strongest attack? Yeah and? You act like Vergo wasn't literally treating Sanji like a fly, he had the most calm and bored expression and monologued about Law in the second part of their fight while Sanji was hard struggling.

No it wouldn't be at least mid difficulty, Doflamingo would beat Zoro within 30 seconds.

Half an arc of fighting to defeat the franky of the crew isn't low to mid difficulty. 

Law uses his sword like a paintbrush for his devil fruit, not for sword techniques. Pretty much the sword allows him to do cutting attacks with his devil fruit cuz of it's sharpness, that is all. He can punch holes like hearts but the sword allows him to do slashing attacks. So yeah, Law isn't really a swordsman, but he's still a high end swordsman none-the-less. 

Why are they equal? Cuz of full body? Lol that's silly. Zoro even directly stated that technique doesn't matter, only level of haki. Vergo showed exceptional stats, amazing reaction time and flexibility, incredible speeds, he's an absolute tank, his busoshoku is stronger (full body just puts your level of buso over your whole body), he's a heavily skilled cqc fighter, rokushiki, etc. 

Captain: Doflamingo
First Mate: Vergo
Third Strongest: Rosinante (relative to his time, of course the others surpassed him but if sanji died, franky or something wouldn't automatically become as strong as sanji, his potential would have kept him in 3rd strongest)
Robin of Crew: Trebol
Franky of Crew: Pica
Brook of Crew: Diamante

Diamante and Trebol showed enough where I put them on equal level with Trebol maybe being stronger than Pica.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 17, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> You mean by the same attack that Usopp was hit by?
> 
> Sorry but Vergo without using his combat style (he only used kicks), not using busoshoku, not using rokushiki, and not being serious (sanji was serious) made a total joke of him.
> 
> ...



Vergo always looks laxed,and he used Shigan and Geppo without addressing them.Usually when one move is in a series for a long time,like 6 powers,people just stop addressing them with name after the initial arc.He knows Shigan,Soru and Geppo,it is not that far fetched to say he can use Tekkai to protect himself.

Firstly,no one beat no one,the fight was interrupted.Secondly,Vergo tried less hard against Sanji is precisely because he underestimated him,and Sanji didn´t look that impressive because his body was very damaged.,I mean even sanji himself was commenting on how badly damaged his body was.

Even Doflamingo was somewhat impressed by Sanji´s attacks.Also,Sanji still didn´t went all out in the New world.He either fought fooder level characters,or he is damaged,or opponent is stronger than Luffy which means he is stronger than Sanji.

Also,seriously,Rosinante?That guy is a definition of a fodder in a strong crew.Pica,Trebol and Diamante are all stronger than him.

zoro can still give vergo a  tough fight,vergo would at the most mid to high difficulty zoro.
zoro hasnt really even gone all out in new world,he has trained under the strongest warlord after all


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 17, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Vergo always looks laxed,and he used Shigan and Geppo without addressing them.Usually when one move is in a series for a long time,like 6 powers,people just stop addressing them with name after the initial arc.He knows Shigan,Soru and Geppo,it is not that far fetched to say he can use Tekkai to protect himself.
> 
> Firstly,no one beat no one,the fight was interrupted.Secondly,Vergo tried less hard against Sanji is precisely because he underestimated him,and Sanji didn´t look that impressive because his body was very damaged.,I mean even sanji himself was commenting on how badly damaged his body was.
> 
> ...


Sanji kicked Vergo from a blindside, he wasn't in tekkai. Vergo's body is just super well trained and hard, he's an absolute tank.

When Tashigi attacked him with a sword, he used busoshoku to block it, while his body is super hard, he's not actually made of iron, nor has he really showed tekkai. I don't doubt that he has tekkai but it's just his combat style that he's SUPER durable and his body is pretty much like muay thai. 

This isn't even really a debatable thing, Vergo treated Sanji like literal fodder, it's like trying to claim that there wasn't a victor between lucci and franky pre skip. Sanji isn't weak but he's no match against Vergo.

Doflamingo > Vergo = Law = Smoker > Zoro > Rosinante (if he had lived) > or = Sanji > Pica, Trebol, and Diamante

Vergo is someone who can hang with Doflamingo for a while, albeit he'd lose in the end. He looked weak cuz he lost to hax, just like how Smoker looked weak. 

We have panels of Sanji getting thrashed by people in the last few chapters so I don't know what you're talking about. 

Luffy >>>>>>>>> Jinbei > Zoro > Sanj 
Vergo is an opponent that would give Luffy trouble, I'd say Vergo is probably around Snack leveled, Sanji at best is around Oven leveled. 

The entire doflamingo pirates were weaker back then, they gained strength over time. If Sanji died during enies lobby and the timeskip happened, yes franky would have surpassed sanji since sanji died and didn't continue to get stronger, but that doesn't mean franky suddenly replaces sanji and becomes as strong as sanji would have been. Rosinante was strong and had a decent devil fruit, if he had lived he would have continued to get stronger and been stronger than the others. Let's not act like that was back when the doflamingo pirates were mid tier.

But yeah, it's curious how you assume Vergo doesn't massively impress Doflamingo both through his strength and his resolve. 

Doflamingo > Vergo > Rosinante (if he lived) >>>>>>> Trebol > or = Pica = Diamante > Gladius > weight guy and so forth >>> Rosinante before his death.

Doflamingo has time and time again been compared to Mihawk, stuff like sitting on opposite sides of a long table (they sat at the ends) to signify they were the big dogs, etc etc. You say Mihawk trained Zoro, but Vergo is literally the first mate of Doflamingo's crew. 

Vergo would beat Zoro as easily as Law would, the gap is unknown.


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## Bohemian Knight (Mar 17, 2018)

Polls says it all. Kata mid-high diffs


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 29, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> What evidence do you have that Law can't match Zoro in swordsmanship even without his devil fruit? Not that it matters, his devil fruit is literally his combat style and his swordsmanship is simply his paint brush to create certain effects.
> 
> Endurance is up to debate but the fact is that Law would beat Zoro within the first half minute of the fight at the very most, Law was able to hang with Ishoo and Law. Law would run out of stamina first cuz his attacks require stamina to use but that's about it, the fight would be short.
> 
> ...



law without his devil fruit is trash.

law pre timeskip did not have haki

his durability is also a joke,he could not even handle a simple gravity crushing by fujitora while zoro  endured it.

law would not be able to lift up something that heavy and casually do heavyliftings like zoro

Training under mihawk DOES matter,he trained under the World's strongest Swordsman and arguably the Strongest Warlord.

Rosinate is the defination of a fodder in a  crew,he has nothing special aside from his devil fruit ability which is not even suited for combat purpose.

*Zoro struggled with the franky of the crew*
zoro struggled to beat pica ? that is outright absurd. so will you also be saying that luffy struggled against don chingao  LOL ? it's the same as saying luffy is low diffing zoro....luffy is never low-diffing zoro..not in a million years. doffy will have to work for his victory. here let me say something even more bold and accurate....even fujotora is nothing short of mid-diffing zoro.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Mar 29, 2018)

Can i please see who voted for Doflamingo?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Pirateer (Mar 30, 2018)

Katakuri had an extreme-diff fight with G4 nostradamus-Luffy. Doffy got low(high) diff'd by pre-katakuri G4 Luffy.

Katakuri mid (low low) diffs Doffy.


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## Ghost_of_Gashir (Mar 30, 2018)

Starting to think Oven can mid-dif Doflamingo, much less Katakuri.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 30, 2018)

Hope that was a joke. Oven? lol 
Cracker and Smoothie could probably take out Doflamingo. But not people like Perospero or Oven. Sugar might be the only other one that could put up a fight.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ghost_of_Gashir (Mar 31, 2018)

When your opinion about Oven is so wrong, you get banned for it.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 1, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> What evidence do you have that Law can't match Zoro in swordsmanship even without his devil fruit? Not that it matters, his devil fruit is literally his combat style and his swordsmanship is simply his paint brush to create certain effects.
> 
> Endurance is up to debate but the fact is that Law would beat Zoro within the first half minute of the fight at the very most, Law was able to hang with Ishoo and Law. Law would run out of stamina first cuz his attacks require stamina to use but that's about it, the fight would be short.
> 
> ...



*zoro is stronger but let's not joke, doflamingo would low diff Zoro within 30 seconds.*

I'm sorry but you're just an idiot, Doflamingo is outrageously powerful but so is Zoro.. There's no way in hell Doflamingo could defeat ZORO with low difficulty, the only person thats been able to do that so far is Mihawk. I'd put Doflamingo and Zoro at equal strength. Plus, we haven't even seen Zoro anywhere close to going all out since the time skip. Reread the manga lmao.

*Zoro struggled with the franky of the crew*
zoro struggled to beat pica ? that is outright absurd. so will you also be saying that luffy struggled against don chingao  LOL ? it's the same as saying luffy is low diffing zoro....luffy is never low-diffing zoro..not in a million years. doffy will have to work for his victory. here let me say something even more bold and accurate....even fujotora is nothing short of mid-diffing zoro.

*Training under Mihawk for 2 years doesn't particularly matter considering Law seemed to have haki already*

law pre timeskip did not have haki

Training under mihawk DOES matter,he trained under the World's strongest Swordsman and arguably the Strongest Warlord.

*Vergo is VASTLY stronger than Pica lol. Doflamingo is Luffy, Vergo is Zoro, Rosinante was Sanji, Pica is Franky, Trebol is Robin, Diamante is Brook. *

Rosinate is the defination of a fodder in a crew,he has nothing special aside from his devil fruit ability which is not even suited for combat purpose.


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## Ultimate Ningen (Apr 1, 2018)

Kata oneshots Doffy

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## trance (Apr 2, 2018)

65-2

it's good to see a vast majority of us are on the same page for once

Reactions: Like 2


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 2, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> The ricochet that took out cracker was more devastating than any of the hits flamingo had received.



KKG?


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 2, 2018)

Ultimate Ningen said:


> Kata oneshots Doffy



Katakuri couldn't one shot base Luffy

Edit: Seriously? 

Katakuri fanboyism

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 2, 2018)

Ghost_of_Gashir said:


> Starting to think Oven can mid-dif Doflamingo, much less Katakuri.





Ghost_of_Gashir said:


> When your opinion about Oven is so wrong, you get banned for it.



Sanji blitzed Oven to hell and back, and Doflamingo trashed Sanji.

Doflamingo could react to Sanji's speed. Oven couldn't even tell what hit him.

Doflamingo almost beat Luffy. Oven was mid diffed by a boat at one point.

Yeah, Oven mid diffing Doflamingo makes sense.


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## Ghost_of_Gashir (Apr 2, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Yeah, Oven mid diffing Doflamingo makes sense.



Glad you agree.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 2, 2018)

Ghost_of_Gashir said:


> Glad you agree.



I don’t know why I thought I would get a response with substance


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## Canute87 (Apr 2, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> KKG?



you have to remember Cracker got launched through *multiple biscuits.* That only G4 level attacks could have broken.

And seeing that he isn't a logia every single biscuit he got launched through was the equivalent of taking one clean and powerful G4 attack.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Shrike (Apr 2, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> you have to remember Cracker got launched through *multiple biscuits.* That only G4 level attacks could have broken.
> 
> And seeing that he isn't a logia every single biscuit he got launched through was the equivalent of taking one clean and powerful G4 attack.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Canute87 (Apr 2, 2018)

Shrike said:


>



If  you get punched through a wall,  the wall doesn't hurt?


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## Tom Servo (Apr 3, 2018)

I doubt Doffy could beat Cracker let alone Katakuri

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 3, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> If  you get punched through a wall,  the wall doesn't hurt?



I don't know man, KKG broke Doflamingo's glasses. Those things survived Marineford.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 3, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> What evidence do you have that Law can't match Zoro in swordsmanship even without his devil fruit? Not that it matters, his devil fruit is literally his combat style and his swordsmanship is simply his paint brush to create certain effects.
> 
> Endurance is up to debate but the fact is that Law would beat Zoro within the first half minute of the fight at the very most, Law was able to hang with Ishoo and Law. Law would run out of stamina first cuz his attacks require stamina to use but that's about it, the fight would be short.
> 
> ...



*zoro is stronger but let's not joke, doflamingo would low diff Zoro within 30 seconds.*

I'm sorry but you're just an idiot, Doflamingo is outrageously powerful but so is Zoro.. There's no way in hell Doflamingo could defeat ZORO with low difficulty, the only person thats been able to do that so far is Mihawk. I'd put Doflamingo and Zoro at equal strength. Plus, we haven't even seen Zoro anywhere close to going all out since the time skip. Reread the manga lmao.

*Zoro struggled with the franky of the crew*
zoro struggled to beat pica ? that is outright absurd. so will you also be saying that luffy struggled against don chingao LOL ? it's the same as saying luffy is low diffing zoro....luffy is never low-diffing zoro..not in a million years. doffy will have to work for his victory. here let me say something even more bold and accurate....even fujotora is nothing short of mid-diffing zoro.

*Training under Mihawk for 2 years doesn't particularly matter considering Law seemed to have haki already*

law pre timeskip did not have haki

Training under mihawk DOES matter,he trained under the World's strongest Swordsman and arguably the Strongest Warlord.

*Vergo is VASTLY stronger than Pica lol. Doflamingo is Luffy, Vergo is Zoro, Rosinante was Sanji, Pica is Franky, Trebol is Robin, Diamante is Brook. *

Rosinate is the defination of a fodder in a crew,he has nothing special aside from his devil fruit ability which is not even suited for combat purpose.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Magentabeard (Apr 3, 2018)

Wano Zoro = Doflamingo


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Apr 3, 2018)

Oh, I'm sorry, wrong thread. I thought this was the Doflamingo vs Katskiri thread.


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 3, 2018)

Magentabeard said:


> Wano Zoro = Doflamingo



He'll probably be close to or exactly at where Luffy currently is. Zoro is only ever a few steps behind Luffy at any given moment in the series. Luffy has had more spotlight, but Zoro hasn't been pushed once yet.


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 3, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> Every single biscuit he got launched through was the equivalent of taking one clean and powerful G4 attack.



Well that can't be true, Cracker + his haki defense was shattered by a single G4 hit.

Cracker+his haki. A biscuit doesn't have the haki defense, and Luffy said Cracker had the greatest haki he had encountered to that point. His biscuits are much weaker than a G4 hit, seeing as Luffy obliterated it even with that hyped haki helping. Cracker's biscuits are a tad overrated here.


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Apr 3, 2018)

More like you are underrating those Cracker biscuits.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 3, 2018)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> More like you are underrating those Cracker biscuits.



That's factual information. G4 blew right through haki and biscuit defense. Cracker has high tier haki augmenting his defense, so without it, the biscuit is much less resilient. It's overrating the biscuits to state crashing through them is the same as Luffy using his G4 attacks when G4 can squash them and haki defense.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Apr 4, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> *zoro is stronger but let's not joke, doflamingo would low diff Zoro within 30 seconds.*
> 
> I'm sorry but you're just an idiot, Doflamingo is outrageously powerful but so is Zoro.. There's no way in hell Doflamingo could defeat ZORO with low difficulty, the only person thats been able to do that so far is Mihawk. I'd put Doflamingo and Zoro at equal strength. Plus, we haven't even seen Zoro anywhere close to going all out since the time skip. Reread the manga lmao.
> 
> ...


Holy fuck, how can you be so off base with the power scale?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## TheOnlyOne1 (Apr 4, 2018)

Yeah, without his devil fruit. Let's just take that away. Let's take away Zoro's swords while we are at it. Let's see Akainu and Aokiji fight for 10 days changing the shape of an island without their devil fruits.


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## Jossaff (Apr 4, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> *I'd put Doflamingo and Zoro at equal strength. Plus, we haven't even seen Zoro anywhere close to going all out since the time skip. Reread the manga lmao.*




You're the one who should re read the manga buddy


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 4, 2018)

The idea that Doflamingo would low diff Zoro is a bit silly, considering Zoro and Luffy have always been portrayed as nigh equals. Zoro struggles with Pica? Luffy struggled with
Monet
Caesar
Pero
Flampe
Shit ton more of fodder I know I’m forgetting. Context and situation are  important to consider for a struggle. Luffy only struggled because he lacked intel or was ambushed, so we don’t count it against him. Zoro was looking for a fucking needle in a very high pitched haystack that could level a city and was actively trying to kill his allies.

He did pretty good, considering the circumstances.

Zoro will always be close to Luffy, and always give him at least a high diff fight

Reactions: Like 1


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 5, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> What evidence do you have that Law can't match Zoro in swordsmanship even without his devil fruit? Not that it matters, his devil fruit is literally his combat style and his swordsmanship is simply his paint brush to create certain effects.
> 
> Endurance is up to debate but the fact is that Law would beat Zoro within the first half minute of the fight at the very most, Law was able to hang with Ishoo and Law. Law would run out of stamina first cuz his attacks require stamina to use but that's about it, the fight would be short.
> 
> ...



*Zoro struggled with the franky of the crew*
zoro struggled to defeat pica ?that outright stupid
you saying zoro was struggling to defeat pica is equivalent of saying that luffy struggled to defeat don chinjao
it's the same as saying luffy is low diffing zoro....luffy is never low-diffing zoro..not in a million years. doffy will have to work for his victory. here let me say something even more bold and accurate....even fujotora is nothing short of mid-diffing zoro.
*
 zoro is stronger but let's not joke, doflamingo would low diff Zoro within 30 seconds.*
if you are trying to say that doflamingo would low difficulty zoro,then give some evidence.
the idea that doflamingo would low difficulty zoro is absolutely silly
 Zoro struggles with Pica? Luffy struggled with Monet Caesar CLown Flampe don chinjao etc
 Context and situation are important to consider for a struggle. Luffy only struggled because he lacked intel or was ambushed, so we don’t count it against him. Zoro was looking for a fucking needle in a very high pitched haystack that could level a city and was actively trying to kill his allies.

He did pretty good, considering the circumstances.
Zoro will always be close to Luffy, and always give him at least a high diff fight
*
Training under Mihawk for 2 years doesn't particularly matter considering Law seemed to have haki already*
training under mihawk would not matter?are you stupid?
you do realize that zoro has trained under the World's Strongest Swordsman who is arguably the strongest warlord as well right?

pre timeskip law did not have haki,stop making up bullshit.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 5, 2018)

Id say dfl  dd  extreme diff.

He has healing to the extent Laws Gamma blade didnt put him out much less kilhim.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## xenos5 (Apr 6, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Katakuri couldn't one shot base Luffy
> 
> Edit: Seriously?
> 
> Katakuri fanboyism



Of course he could have. Just Mochi Thrust on the center of Luffy's chest rather than the side. 

Or just use Diced Mochi on him (considering how much of an effect it had on G4 Luffy I have little to no doubt it could oneshot a weaker version of luffy).

Reactions: Winner 1


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## xenos5 (Apr 6, 2018)

IchLiebe said:


> Id say dfl  dd  extreme diff.
> 
> He has healing to the extent Laws Gamma blade didnt put him out much less kill him.



Did you actually READ the manga? Because Doffy didn't heal jack shit. He stitched his organs together with threads after being hit with Law's Gamma Knife.

Doffy has no chance of landing an attack on someone fast enough to dodge Black Mamba (pretty much a Jet Culverin Gatling) from G4 Snakeman Luffy.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Of course he could have. Just Mochi Thrust on the center of Luffy's chest rather than the side.
> 
> Or just use Diced Mochi on him (considering how much of an effect it had on G4 Luffy I have little to no doubt it could oneshot a weaker version of luffy).



 Except that Mochi thrust only hit after the fight was hours in, and only with his little sister's help. You guys need to stop bringing up an attack that the future sight man needed help to land. If Flampe didn't run interference, that thrust would've missed. Katakuri had hours to beat Luffy and didn't do it, no way he could one shot.

"Of course he could have." Sure, that's why he was stressed during the fight where he was actively trying to kill Luffy and help his siblings out, in the back of his mind he always knew he could one shot.

Even Akainu couldn't one shot Luffy, why would someone Luffy already beat be able to one shot him?


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> *Doffy has no chance of landing an attack* someone fast enough to dodge Black Mamba



Base Luffy landed attacks, and I'm guessing base Luffy isn't faster than G4 Snakeman Luffy.

Could it be because Katakuri isn't super duper fast and uses CoO to dodge? The thing he used the entire fight?

Nah that doesn't make any sense, must be because Katakuri was just kidding around with his speed until Snakeman came out, then he just got _really fast._


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## xenos5 (Apr 6, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Except that Mochi thrust only hit after the fight was hours in, and only with his little sister's help. You guys need to stop bringing up an attack that the future sight man needed help to land. If Flampe didn't run interference, that thrust would've missed. Katakuri had hours to beat Luffy and didn't do it, no way he could one shot.



Luffy does not have resistance to piercing attacks in the same way he does blunt force attacks.

And even Katakuri's blunt force attacks can hurt him.

Katakuri doesn't need to weaken him for a Mochi Thrust to pierce through his chest, that's utter bullshit. Landing a Mochi Thrust on Luffy at any point during the fight would've had the same effect. The section where the Mochi Thrust lands would be torn to shreds. 

Luffy's CoO massively improved during the fight. And even with it Katakuri was still landing attacks intermittently. There's no way in hell he would've dodged it before the CoO improvement, and even with the improvement I seriously doubt he could've dodged it for a long period of time if Katakuri used it over and over or just used it as a follow up attack after stunning/knocking Luffy down with a different attack. 



DoctorLaw said:


> "Of course he could have." Sure, that's why he was stressed during the fight where he was actively trying to kill Luffy and help his siblings out, in the back of his mind he always knew he could one shot.
> 
> Even Akainu couldn't one shot Luffy, why would someone Luffy already beat be able to one shot him?



Do you think Base Luffy has the same level of durability as G4 Luffy? Do you think Base Luffy could take a King Cobra from G4 Snakeman Luffy and not be knocked unconscious or killed? Katakuri's Diced Mochi was essentially shown to be equal to King Cobra (or slightly stronger since Luffy fell down first). If Luffy can't take one he sure as hell can't take the other. 

Akainu not oneshotting Luffy is just pure PIS. Or more likely he just didn't use his stronger attacks on Luffy as he didn't see it as worth the effort (As it's very likely Akainu still has more attacks to show we haven't seen yet).


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## xenos5 (Apr 6, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Base Luffy landed attacks, and I'm guessing base Luffy isn't faster than G4 Snakeman Luffy.



Base Luffy relied entirely on his CoO boost and a surprise attack to land one punch on a Katakuri weakened from stabbing himself with his owns spear. Otherwise nothing landed. 



DoctorLaw said:


> Could it be because Katakuri isn't super duper fast and uses CoO to dodge? The thing he used the entire fight?



You cannot dodge and react to attacks from G4 Snakeman Luffy if you aren't on his level of speed. Katakuri also clashed fists with Snakeman Luffy (both reached the same center point at the same time) as they fought. Even with Future Sight, the character with the faster punches should've reached the opponent before that could happen. 



DoctorLaw said:


> Nah that doesn't make any sense, must be because Katakuri was just kidding around with his speed until Snakeman came out, then he just got _really fast._



You're kidding yourself if you don't think Katakuri kicked it up a notch against G4 Snakeman Luffy.

He didn't use either the donut form (which built up a massive amount of momentum and speed to the point G4 Snakeman had trouble reacting to it) or Diced Mochi until Luffy used G4 Snakeman. 

And even with future sight dodging EVERY Jet Culverin in a Jet Culvering Gatling (Black Mamba) is IMPOSSIBLE without sufficient speed. Not only are they the fastest attacks Luffy can generate, they curve and move in weird directions, and there is a ridiculous amount of them coming at you ALL AT ONCE.


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## mr sean66 (Apr 11, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> If Cracker is > Katakuri (out of merit of Cracker's true power being hidden), then Katakuri wins with some difficulty.
> If Katakuri > Cracker, then Katakuri wins no diff.


You have the craziest/ dumbest ideas on this fourm by far, and from the rumors ive heard many seem to agree with me.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Jun 10, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> What evidence do you have that Law can't match Zoro in swordsmanship even without his devil fruit? Not that it matters, his devil fruit is literally his combat style and his swordsmanship is simply his paint brush to create certain effects.
> 
> Endurance is up to debate but the fact is that Law would beat Zoro within the first half minute of the fight at the very most, Law was able to hang with Ishoo and Law. Law would run out of stamina first cuz his attacks require stamina to use but that's about it, the fight would be short.
> 
> ...



zoro has large weakness in terms of speed? he dodged hordy's water bullets in water.... he was faster than hordy in water he dodged kumas pressure paws and laser pre timeskip which were said to travel at a speed of light...... everytime he does attacks it looks like he teleports zoro has good speed but not as sanji or brook or luffy.....but his reaction time is too good to match a guy as fast as brook... if you think vergo would beat zoro, well you really are retarded

zoro would chop up vergo into pieces

Reactions: Like 1


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## FriendofJedi (Jun 10, 2018)

Have to go with the gulper eel, he really did a number on Luffy and a new variation of Gear 4th was required.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Jun 10, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Usopp took the same attack and was fine. Vergo went at Sanji using only kicks when that's not his actual style of combat, Vergo wasn't using busoshoku even though specializing in it, Vergo went at Sanji without rokushiki, and Vergo also was more casual.
> 
> A single kick broke Sanji's leg bone and the fight was ultimately in Vergo's favor heavily even though it only lasted like 2 and a half pages. Sanji even got 2 free hits and it did nothing, both to Vergo's face. Vergo trounced Sanji easily.
> 
> It was unfair because Vergo is stronger than Zoro and Zoro is stronger than Sanji.



usopp was covered in bruises when he took the explosion,and it is seen that even before sanji retured to his original body,usopp was still covered in bruises



zoro shits on vergo easily just like how zoro shat on pica

even in the manga you can see in the background you can see that they traded kicks before Sanji´s leg was cracked,so no it needed several kicks for vergo to crack an INJURED sanji's leg


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## EverBlueGale (Jun 10, 2018)

I'd say he gives Kata mid-high difficulty.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 15, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> usopp was covered in bruises when he took the explosion,and it is seen that even before sanji retured to his original body,usopp was still covered in bruises
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yikes

I'm sorry that Vergo beats Zoro, it's just something you'll have to accept.

Zoro isn't Luffy's equal, he's far from it
Vergo shits on Pica who Zoro struggled with
Vergo shat on Sanji

No matter how much you cry about it, nothing will change.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 15, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Yikes
> 
> I'm sorry that *Vergo beats Zoro*, it's just something you'll have to accept.



This is ridiculous.

Zoro struggled in his fight with Pica. 

To get Pica. He one shot him when he caught him.

Just like Law struggled in his fight with Vergo.

To get his heart. He one shot him when he got his heart back.

Are you going to say Law is weaker like you’re saying Zoro is weaker for something that has *absolutely nothing to do with a characters level of strength.* Pica was obliterated by Zoro in the time it took Zoro to tell Pica he was going to slaughter him. Law got straight to the point and talked his shit after the one shot.

If Zoro didn’t break a sweat in a straight up 1v1 against a guy hovering around Vergo’s power level, why would you assume Vergo can wreck Zoro? Zoro has a high level of durability and endurance as well, not to mention a blitz he’s used on a character several times his level (Kuma during pre). Vergo is a tank, and relies on overwhelming haki and brawler tactics. Zoro low diffs.


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## Imagine (Jun 15, 2018)

Zoro did not blitz Kuma.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Jun 16, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Yikes
> 
> I'm sorry that Vergo beats Zoro, it's just something you'll have to accept.
> 
> ...



Even Luffy would have struggled against pica.

Zoro was looking for a needle in a giant haystack ,which is the size of a city,anybody would have struggled.

But once pica came out of his hiding place,Zoro fodderize him

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 16, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> This is ridiculous.
> 
> Zoro struggled in his fight with Pica.
> 
> ...


I mean Luffy one shot Cracker as well, Cracker was still overpowering G4 Luffy and took an army of big mom creations + Nami playing support to beat him over half a day.

Hitting Pica and dealing with his creations is half the battle.

Law is stronger than Zoro + beat Vergo via hax. Vergo is an absolute tank and master busoshoku user and cqc fighter.

Hate to break it to you but the attack would have defeated Zoro as well, Law has the ability to beat a yonkou with gamma knife in one hit.

Pica is the franky of doflaming's crew
Vergo is the first mate.

Pica was "obliterated" with half a big arc in time + zoro got help to do it.

Law used his strongest attack to get through Vergo's busoshoku and the hax dealt with the rest, said attack would have otherwise not defeated him, Vergo is an absolute tank.

Vergo has higher durability and endurance based on post timeskip feats. Also Vergo's busoshoku has superior feats. Also Vergo has superior speed/reaction feats.

HOvering around Vergo's power level? Pica is Trebol and Diamante leveled. It's like saying Franky is hovering around Zoro leveled.

Lol at saying Zoro can low diff someone stronger than him, he wouldn't even be able to damage Vergo or land any hits even.

Heck Pica and Zoro even clashed equally multiple times. Guess you have to be delusional to claim someone who needed help against the Franky of doflamingo's crew can beat Vergo, his first mate.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 16, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Even Luffy would have struggled against pica.
> 
> Zoro was looking for a needle in a giant haystack ,which is the size of a city,anybody would have struggled.
> 
> But once pica came out of his hiding place,Zoro fodderize him


Sanji would have beaten Pica even easier than Zoro did.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Jun 16, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Yikes
> 
> I'm sorry that Vergo beats Zoro, it's just something you'll have to accept.
> 
> ...



vergo defeated a heavily injured sanji,nothing impressive,sanji still kicked vergo at his face and send him flying.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Aug 31, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> What evidence do you have that Law can't match Zoro in swordsmanship even without his devil fruit? Not that it matters, his devil fruit is literally his combat style and his swordsmanship is simply his paint brush to create certain effects.
> 
> Endurance is up to debate but the fact is that Law would beat Zoro within the first half minute of the fight at the very most, Law was able to hang with Ishoo and Law. Law would run out of stamina first cuz his attacks require stamina to use but that's about it, the fight would be short.
> 
> ...




*Zoro was physically unable to defeat pica since he's so slow running speed wise, he wasn't bloodlusted or anything but it wasn't a casual victory, nor can you deny that he required help.
Zoro through his pica fight has actually shown a very large weakness in speed, this is likely due to the fact that he mainly trains in arm strength but he was physically incapable of catching up to pica and his speed was vastly weaker than orlumbus's arm strength's ability to throw him. Zoro's weakest attribute is his speed and it's why he couldn't defeat pica more easily (who was only trebol and diamante level, if not weaker than trebol)*


lol so the fact pika could not even touch zorro and had to run like a bitch does not mean anything to you?? Listen, if two guys are fighting and one guy runs away out of desperation that's already a loss. Its not hard to get. What's hilarious is the entire premise of your argument is that zorro needed help to catch someone running from him like a helpless child... Lol so if your point is he needed help to catch pika sure... But why was pika running then? Lmao "Zorro slow as fuck" lmao he's not "slow" because pika had a broke ass df power that lets him spawn across entire cities nigh instantly. I guess everyone is slow but fuckin kuma, kizaru, and pika by your logic lol. Also pretty sure zorro would have mopped the floor with vergo.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 31, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> *Zoro was physically unable to defeat pica since he's so slow running speed wise, he wasn't bloodlusted or anything but it wasn't a casual victory, nor can you deny that he required help.
> Zoro through his pica fight has actually shown a very large weakness in speed, this is likely due to the fact that he mainly trains in arm strength but he was physically incapable of catching up to pica and his speed was vastly weaker than orlumbus's arm strength's ability to throw him. Zoro's weakest attribute is his speed and it's why he couldn't defeat pica more easily (who was only trebol and diamante level, if not weaker than trebol)*
> 
> 
> lol so the fact pika could not even touch zorro and had to run like a bitch does not mean anything to you?? Listen, if two guys are fighting and one guy runs away out of desperation that's already a loss. Its not hard to get. What's hilarious is the entire premise of your argument is that zorro needed help to catch someone running from him like a helpless child... Lol so if your point is he needed help to catch pika sure... But why was pika running then? Lmao "Zorro slow as fuck" lmao he's not "slow" because pika had a broke ass df power that lets him spawn across entire cities nigh instantly. I guess everyone is slow but fuckin kuma, kizaru, and pika by your logic lol. Also pretty sure zorro would have mopped the floor with vergo.


Different combat styles exist within the world of one piece. A marksman isn't going to be rushing in to fist fight Luffy outside of comic relief. 

Nah, zoro is pretty small, ie why orlumbus (who is stronger than middle trio but weaker than monster trio)'s throw made him many times faster than zoro could move, thus allowing zoro to actually catch up with pica. 

Orlumbus's arm strength is stronger than Zoro's leg strength. 

Zoro trains arm strength and technique, it doesn't make him weaker, it's just a weakness he has that makes fast people who can fight safely at a range a risk to him


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## Gledania (Sep 2, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Hate to break it to you but the attack would have defeated Zoro as well, Law has the ability to beat a yonkou with gamma knife in one hit.



Depend on whether his haki is strong enough to pierce the said yonko.

That said I believe he is currently stronger than Zoro haki until zoro show something worth.



PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Sanji would have beaten Pica even easier than Zoro did.



True since he can fly , but pica can still flee and hide with his devil fruit. Zoro with ranged attack was able to cut him easily.



PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Pica was "obliterated" with half a big arc in time + zoro got help to do it.



Because the guy was fleeing the fight ... I mean ... replace Zoro with hawkins ... and tell him "you have 10 minute to kill a guy who can move freely on a giant golem and who is currently fleeing" what will he do ??? Fly ??? How ?

If he was fighting 100% zoro instead of aiming at wounded people and fleeing the fight , Zoro would have beated him easily.



PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Heck Pica and Zoro even clashed equally multiple times



Zoro had two sword , not 3 , and didn't seem to fight with all what he got. He always put his bandanna when getting serious , he didn't when he clashed pica "Equally" ...



PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Zoro trains arm strength and technique, it doesn't make him weaker, it's just a weakness he has that makes fast people who can fight safely at a range a risk to him



Therefor how much he struggled against pica is irrelevant to how much difficulty he will have against Vergo.

Unless vergo start flying everywhere and hide ...

Kaku was fast , can fight safely at range. It didn't change anything.


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## Mariko (Sep 8, 2018)

To think I really made such a shitty thread... 

I may have been drunk back then  andaha


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## Gledania (Sep 8, 2018)

White Rabbit said:


> To think I really made such a shitty thread...
> 
> I may have been drunk back then  andaha



????????????





What are you talking about ?


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## Mariko (Sep 8, 2018)

Gledania said:


> ????????????
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Merged thread. 



White Rabbit said:


> On one side we have a fresh and healthy Doffy, on the other we have a fresh Katakuri.
> 
> Dem stats/feats are close: hax DF abilities, endurance/stams, CoC, CoA, awakening and else.
> 
> ...


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## xmysticgohanx (Sep 8, 2018)

White Rabbit said:


> Merged thread.


 you think Katakuri stomps now right?


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## Mariko (Sep 8, 2018)

xmysticgohanx said:


> you think Katakuri stomps now right?



Mid diff pbbly, yeah. 

Mah boi DD still deserves some respect.


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## xmysticgohanx (Sep 8, 2018)

White Rabbit said:


> Mid diff pbbly, yeah.
> 
> Mah boi DD still deserves some respect.


 I would say low to no diff tbh

Katakuri >> G4 Luffy (before his future sight upgrade + everything else) > G4 Luffy (vs Cracker) > G4 Luffy (vs Doffy) >>> Doffy


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## Nox (Sep 9, 2018)

13 pages of Kata vs Doflamingo! Pretend Kata didn't give post TS Luffy the toughest fight of his life. Act like Kata wasn't annihilating Luffy who mauled Mingo. Forget SH grow stronger per island and post fights, meaning Boundman at the end of the arc was vastly superior to the one Mingo encountered. Pretend MUM and Oda didn't insinuate Cracker > Doflamingo. The same Cracker who'se the 3rd best out of the same contingent he shares with Katakuri. Doflamingo is getting treated like Boundman was in round one. If he gets hakified donut Mochi punch his chest is getting carved in.


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## GilDLax (Sep 10, 2018)

LOL, let see Katakuri takes Gamma Knife barebody and keeps a Haki mochi dome of 40km diameter (is that Dresrosa's size?) whilst fighting then we can debate this match.


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## Nox (Sep 10, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> LOL, let see Katakuri takes Gamma Knife barebody and keeps a Haki mochi dome of 40km diameter (is that Dresrosa's size?) whilst fighting then we can debate this match.



This is one of the most ignorant statements I have bore witness upon. It'd be like someone saying Hawkins > Luffy. Why? Lets see Luffy take a point blank sword slash across his face. Confidently confront Zoro and Law with nothing but fodder. Encounter the World Strongest Creature and not end up imprisoned like Kidd. Do you understand what a move set, fighting style and arsenal is? 

Have you considered the simple fact Katakuri doesn't have to *1.* Get hit with Mochi - as his superior observation will allow him to dodge *2.* Create a Mochi dome as he's trapped with his opponent where he wants. AND the physical might of his double layered Haki Mochi had enough raw power to pile drive through the man who pile drove through Mingo and his strings.

Do you understand its perfectly possible for people at a specific tier to have characteristics that are far beyond the means of that tier. Usopp for instance has been put in situations where his durability far outshines even some Mid Trio members. Zoro's endurance is far beyond his own level. Sanji's speed? Law's stamina is comparable to a composite M3 member despite the fact his fruit's biggest flaw is it drains it - implying his stamina isn't your average. Franky's DC, between tossing PX-4/5 to his laser blasts to fighting Base Luffy on equal terms. Oven's durability is far beyond someone his level. The list goes on. What makes you think Doflamingo and his stamina is any different? Are we supposed to say Doflamingo is superior to Marco as well since the FM didn't tank Gamma Knife and maintain a 40 KM diameter dome? Oh look Roger didn't survive getting his organs pierced? Boy I tell you what

Reactions: Like 2


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## GilDLax (Sep 10, 2018)

Astro said:


> It'd be like someone saying Hawkins > Luffy. Why? Lets see Luffy take a point blank sword slash across his face. Confidently confront Zoro and Law with nothing but fodder. Encounter the World Strongest Creature and not end up imprisoned like Kidd.


Oh yeah, the art of making completely off analogy LOL




Astro said:


> Do you understand what a move set, fighting style and arsenal is?
> 
> Have you considered the simple fact Katakuri doesn't have to *1.* Get hit with Mochi - as his superior observation will allow him to dodge *2.* Create a Mochi dome as he's trapped with his opponent where he wants. AND the physical might of his double layered Haki Mochi had enough raw power to pile drive through the man who pile drove through Mingo and his strings.


Except that DD didn't have to do those to fight Luffy. He did those cause being blindsided by Law and to keep people from getting out of Dresrosa...plus how does Katakuri's being able to see future erase the fact that DD got Gamma Knife and severely weakened? Failed analogy is failed.




Astro said:


> Do you understand its perfectly possible for people at a specific tier to have characteristics that are far beyond the means of that tier. Usopp for instance has been put in situations where his durability far outshines even some Mid Trio members. Zoro's endurance is far beyond his own level. Sanji's speed? Law's stamina is comparable to a composite M3 member despite the fact his fruit's biggest flaw is it drains it - implying his stamina isn't your average. Franky's DC, between tossing PX-4/5 to his laser blasts to fighting Base Luffy on equal terms. Oven's durability is far beyond someone his level. The list goes on. What makes you think Doflamingo and his stamina is any different? Are we supposed to say Doflamingo is superior to Marco as well since the FM didn't tank Gamma Knife and maintain a 40 KM diameter dome? Oh look Roger didn't survive getting his organs pierced? Boy I tell you what


This is Strawman. I never said DD should just win because he has stamina. I said he didn't even get to showcase his 100% self, far from it, and until we know what that 100% is capable of, all we debate is just a shell of DD vs Katakuri which is meaningless unless this thread means that.

And tanking to win is still a viable method. Not pretty, but it still is winning. Marco may as well use his fruit to sleep through attacks from people far superior to him in every single stats and win because his fruit lasts longer than the opponent's stamina. Who's to say 100%DD couldn't last longer than Katakuri's Haki?

And it's not just stamina but also other stats of DD. I'm sure having your organs fried doesn't just affect your stamina, let see you have that and try to lift the same weight you normally do in gym LOL 
DD also has to use CoA on the Bird Cage, too. A lot. Enough to make it hopeless to a bunch of decent New World fighters, including Zoro. Without CoA his thread got sliced like butter by the two terrorist characters...

Your analogy falls apart in several ways. Until you prove to me having your organs fried and stitched by thread only sapped you less than half of your ability to fight then you can have a case. White-fucking-beard has a heart attack and he already weakened so much LOL.


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## Kylo Ren (Sep 10, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> *DD also has to use CoA on the Bird Cage*, too. A lot. Enough to make it hopeless to a bunch of decent New World fighters, including Zoro. Without CoA his thread got sliced like butter by the two terrorist characters...


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## GilDLax (Sep 10, 2018)

Don King said:


>


yeah, ignoring the rest of the part of you quoted. Or are you one of those attention-less readers who don't know Hardening is just one kind of CoA?


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## xenos5 (Sep 10, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Except that DD didn't have to do those to fight Luffy. He did those cause being blindsided by Law and to keep people from getting out of Dresrosa...plus how does Katakuri's being able to see future erase the fact that DD got Gamma Knife and severely weakened? Failed analogy is failed.
> 
> This is Strawman. I never said DD should just win because he has stamina. I said he didn't even get to showcase his 100% self, far from it, and until we know what that 100% is capable of, all we debate is just a shell of DD vs Katakuri which is meaningless unless this thread means that.



Katakuri used his ultimate attack (Diced Mochi) twice after impaling himself with a spear just like Doffy used his awakening many times and in the end his ultimate attack (God Thread) after having to stitch his organs together.

Both of them didn’t lose a massive amount of power/haki after getting injured. They instead showed their best feats yet. There is no arguing about a hypothetical version of Doffy’s attacks that were much better had he not been injured since there’s no proof those injuries drained his haki to the extent you’re claiming. Heck Luffy had his ass beat half to death (and got a chunk torn out of his abdomen) before he used G4 Snakeman (along with multiple powerful techniques) as well.

Doffy’s god thread failed against Luffy’s King Kong Gun it would also fail against Katakuri’s Diced Mochi.

Katakuri’s armament kicks or punches bounced off of G4 Luffy. Doffy would hurt his armament fist trying to clash with Katakuri’s Block Mochi fist, hurt his armament arm trying to block a Block Mochi or Power Mochi (since it’s a combination of Block Mochi and awakening) Punch.

Heck considering even G4 Snakeman Luffy’s fist was hurt when he tried to clash with Katakuri’s Block Mochi fist Katakuri could probably even block or knock away Doffy’s Awakening attacks without having to use his own awakening (though if he did use his own awakening Power Mochi should knock away any of Doffy’s awakening attacks without much difficulty).

The density of Katakuri’s armament with Block Mochi is just on a whole nother level.


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## Kylo Ren (Sep 10, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> yeah, ignoring the rest of the part of you quoted. Or are you one of those attention-less readers who don't know Hardening is just one kind of CoA?


You're the one who using Strawman's here when did implied that Doffy used Haki on Birdcage? your just assuming to increase Doffy's feat but guess what no matter what you do Katakuri mid diff Doffy.

Tbh it's just an asspull ability to raise the stakes for the protagonist.


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## mr sean66 (Sep 11, 2018)

Doflamingo would be strong enough that him challenging katakuri wouldn’t look totally suicidal,

Basically strong enough to
Be able to say I can hold him off we can meet later.

In a straight up fight I think katakuri Beats Doflamingo with either the highest end of mid diff or lowest end of high diff,

Doflamingo overall is a beast with a lot of versatility and stamina, he’s basically as ridiculous of a tank as luffy if you ask me, fighting with organs gamma knifed stitched togethor while being hammered by gear 4 and being able to outlast it...


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## mr sean66 (Sep 11, 2018)

Doflamingo is definitially strong enough to go clash with katakuri, 

Fight an uphill battle for twenty-45 mins and then escape.

I think katakuri would have a very hard time trying to hunt Doflamingo down if he was on the run.


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## GilDLax (Sep 11, 2018)

Don King said:


> You're the one who using Strawman's here when did implied that Doffy used Haki on Birdcage? your just assuming to increase Doffy's feat but guess what no matter what you do Katakuri mid diff Doffy.


That's not what Strawman means LOL

And I'm still waiting for you to address the non-bold of what you quoted from me in your original post where I reasoned why Bird Cage has CoA on it LOL

Anyone can bark ''I disagree'' and give laughing emoticon but actual reasoning seems so out of hands, eh?




Don King said:


> Tbh it's just an asspull ability to raise the stakes for the protagonist.


Translated: I can't accept DD is stronger than I think he is so any feat that makes him better is deemed asspull just because.
Good to know!


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## xenos5 (Sep 11, 2018)

mr sean66 said:


> Doflamingo is definitially strong enough to go clash with katakuri



Even with armament on he'd hurt his fists if he tries to clash with Katakuri's Block Mochi fists just like Luffy did. 



mr sean66 said:


> Fight an uphill battle for twenty-45 mins and then escape.



I'm not so sure Doflamingo can last that long. Especially if Katakuri uses his spear Mogura (his main weapon) since it was able to tear through Luffy, and Doflamingo can't dodge in the same way Luffy could (used his rubber body to move in strange ways).



mr sean66 said:


> I think katakuri would have a very hard time trying to hunt Doflamingo down if he was on the run.



Not really. Katakuri has many options to deal with that. 

Chasing him down with his faster speed, going into his flowing Mochi form (which he used to catch up to G4 Boundman Luffy after he got a headstart), using awakening to trap Doffy's legs, Using Awakening to surround Doflamingo with Power Mochi fists, stretching his Mochi arm to reach Doffy from a distance and grab him, using Diced Mochi (where he starts by turning into a Mochi Donut form and then rolls with enough speed to close a large gap with G4 Snakeman Luffy and attack before he can really react), ETC...


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## xmysticgohanx (Sep 11, 2018)

Doffy breaks his bones if he hits Katakuri's haki


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## Bernkastel (Sep 11, 2018)

Katakuri was fighting and overpowering G4.
Doflamingo got rekt and could only run away from G4.

Katakuri also managed to adapt to Snakeman's fast and unpredictable movements in a few minutes implying he's not a one-trick CoO pony.

Mid diff on the higher end for Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kylo Ren (Sep 11, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> That's not what Strawman means LOL


okay I am wrong here.


GilDLax said:


> And I'm still waiting for you to address the non-bold of what you quoted from me in your original post where I reasoned why Bird Cage has CoA on it LOL


What's there to address? as long as it didn't implied your just assuming. If Fujitora really want to break the Birdcage he can it's not enough because Zoro and other use Haki the birdcage have Haki too specially when Doffy's Haki is not that strong compare to the likes of Cracker or Katakuri who show us their Haki is above Luffy.


GilDLax said:


> Anyone can bark ''I disagree'' and give laughing emoticon but actual reasoning seems so out of hands, eh?


Can you blame me? If you post something like this. This post alone say something about you your still salty cause Katakuri will body bag Doffy. move on and accept Katakuri is superior to Doffy in anyway even *stamina*.


GilDLax said:


> LOL, let see Katakuri takes Gamma Knife barebody and keeps a Haki mochi dome of 40km diameter (is that Dresrosa's size?) whilst fighting then we can debate this match.





GilDLax said:


> Translated: I can't accept DD is stronger than I think he is so any feat that makes him better is deemed asspull just because.
> Good to know!


well Birdcage being able to prevent contact from the outside world is not an ability of string in anyway if you ask me.


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## GilDLax (Sep 12, 2018)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Doffy breaks his bones if he hits Katakuri's haki


Doffy didn't break his bone taking G4 which in turn sent Kata flying LOL Also Block/Strengthmochi only hurt G2 (which DD also overpowered easily when he was healthy) and Snakeman which is clearly weaker than Boundman and focuses on speed. And this is only the DD whose CoA could very likely have been spent on Bird Cage and whose physical strength dropped significantly thanks to Gamma Knife.

I agree Katakuri's CoA has better feats but let's not inflate the difference like heaven and earth.



Bernkastel said:


> could only run away from G4.


Didn't happen...Or you mean DD's using Awakening to keep G4 at bay and fighting from range for 20 minutes? Wow, I didn't know that's not a legit tactics. How about Katakuri also ''mans up'', stops using CoO and starts taking Boundman's punches then? Or was he, like DD, also aware he could not match it head-on and had to dodge with CoO? Oh wait, that's totally canon! He got sent flying 3 times and needed to calm down to use CoO...

But despite both trying to not get G4 attacks hit their bodies, one is better than the other because? Or does this forum have preference towards close combat and not ranged combat?




Bernkastel said:


> Katakuri also managed to adapt to Snakeman's fast and unpredictable movements in a few minutes implying he's not a one-trick CoO pony.


What makes you think DD cannot do the same? The guy actually blitzed Boundman's top speed so far...




Don King said:


> What's there to address? as long as it didn't implied your just assuming


Read that post again and see the part you din't bold LOL




Don King said:


> If Fujitora really want to break the Birdcage he can


Now *YOU ARE* doing Dtrawman cause I never mentioned Fuji...



Don King said:


> it's not enough because Zoro and other use Haki the birdcage have Haki too
> 
> specially when Doffy's Haki is not that strong compare to the likes of Cracker or Katakuri who show us their Haki is above Luffy.


I have no idea what you're saying with that broken flow in the first half.

As for the second half of your sentence, you are doing circular reasoning. DD's CoA being worse than Cracker is something I'm saying we don't really know because DD didn't really get to use his full CoA potential vs Luffy due to BC. Rather than reasoning why that's wrong you just take what you have to prove and make it the conclusion already, then use that to say I'm wrong...




Don King said:


> This post alone say something about you your still salty cause Katakuri will body bag Doffy. move on and accept Katakuri is superior to Doffy in anyway even *stamina*.


You're the one not debating properly by ignoring what I said and replying only to the bolded part you like to retort. You're being biased cause you can't accept DD being better than you think he is LOL And even if what I say is wrong, since when asking for reason why is being salty? Don't start accusing people when you're short of reasoning!




Don King said:


> well Birdcage being able to prevent contact from the outside world is not an ability of string in anyway if you ask me.


It didn't prevent contact from outside world. It prevented Den Den Mushi communication...more evidence you didn't read the manga carefully.

It's a fucking fantasy manga...since when magical power has to be absolutely similar to the real-life counterpart it's based on? DD can make fucking clones for God's sake and I don't see you asking why his threads can change color...Mont D'Or has a book DF, since when flying is an ability of book in anyway? Or why is swamp bottomless so that Caribou can stuff whatever the fuck he wants to in there, even someone as big as Shirahoshi as if there's another dimension?...
Seriously?

And finally, faraday cage. Google it.


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## Bernkastel (Sep 12, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> What makes you think DD cannot do the same? The guy actually blitzed Boundman's top speed so far...


Because Luffy trashed him.
Show me scans of him blitzing Boundman.


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## Kylo Ren (Sep 12, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> As for the second half of your sentence, you are doing circular reasoning. DD's CoA being worse than Cracker is something I'm saying we don't really know because DD didn't really get to use his full CoA potential vs Luffy due to BC. Rather than reasoning why that's wrong you just take what you have to prove and make it the conclusion already, then use that to say I'm wrong...


DD didn't use his full potential because of BC is just you assuming that Doffy has more to offer than he's shown in DR arc. So I am right that you're wrong or else show me a panel where it's stated in the manga and not what if Doffy's potential in your fantasies.


GilDLax said:


> You're the one not debating properly by ignoring what I said and replying only to the bolded part you like to retort. You're being biased cause you can't accept DD being better than you think he is LOL And even if what I say is wrong, since when asking for reason why is being salty? Don't start accusing people when you're short of reasoning!


Doffy's being better than I think it is? no I know where's Doffy's place is. You are the one adding shit so Doffy will look good against Kata.


GilDLax said:


> It didn't prevent contact from outside world. It prevented Den Den Mushi communication...more evidence you didn't read the manga carefully.
> 
> It's a fucking fantasy manga...since when magical power has to be absolutely similar to the real-life counterpart it's based on? DD can make fucking clones for God's sake and I don't see you asking why his threads can change color...Mont D'Or has a book DF, since when flying is an ability of book in anyway? Or why is swamp bottomless so that Caribou can stuff whatever the fuck he wants to in there, even someone as big as Shirahoshi as if there's another dimension?...
> Seriously?
> ...


That's what I'm been saying what's stopping Oda to make the Birdcage durable as it is. instead you add something which is not really the case saying some shit the BC have Haki just to make Doffy look good as you perceive him to be.


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## Figo (Sep 12, 2018)

Wonder which one Luffy had more difficuilty against.


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## xenos5 (Sep 12, 2018)

ItzdoctorZ said:


> Wonder which one Luffy had more difficuilty against.



Katakuri was definitely an extreme diff fight that could’ve gone either way. He didn’t get beat up for hours while barely landing any hits of his own with Doffy like he did with Katakuri, he didn’t receive Damage even in G4 Boundman form with Doffy like he did with Katakuri, he didn’t get a chunk torn out of his abdomen by Doffy like he did with Katakuri, he didn’t have to bring out a second G4 form (Snakeman) because Boundman was too slow for Doffy like he did with Katakuri, and lastly he didn’t get a Double KO with his ultimate attack on Doflamingo like he did with Katakuri.


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## cry77 (Sep 12, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Cracker's defense couldn't stop G4. A haki covered biscuit fell apart in 2 hits, why in the world would G4 not be able to beat the regular biscuits with regular hits quickly? When he used Kong Organ he broke through their shields/defenses instantly, Cracker can just spam his DF and repair damaged biscuits. His defense wasn't impressive compared to G4, not at all.
> 
> Katakuri is beating Luffy because he has advanced CoO. Not because he's that much stronger than Luffy is. Luffy didn't need a "leap in power" to fight Katakuri, he needed to use his DF in a clever way to defeat his opponent, the same way he does with every fight. Luffy's CoO glimpses that people are calling asspulls aren't even that serious. He sees one or two attacks every 30 or 40 minutes of Katakuri hitting his face in. Luffy wasn't perfectly predicting attacks all over the place.
> 
> ...



1. Anything that requires two full G4 hits to get through has INSANE defense, and that's not even counting the fact that any damage can be repaired, so it hardly matters even if G4>Biscuits (which it is, but not by a huge margin). 
Besides, if G4 could bust through the biscuits no problem, why did he need 11 hours and nami's help? Don't sleep on Cracker, he's mad powerful. Probably close to Katakuri himself. 

2. Katakuri made it obvious at the beginning of the fight that he was superior to non-G4-Luffy in EVERY category, barring endurance.


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## xmysticgohanx (Sep 15, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Doffy didn't break his bone taking G4 which in turn sent Kata flying LOL Also Block/Strengthmochi only hurt G2 (which DD also overpowered easily when he was healthy) and Snakeman which is clearly weaker than Boundman and focuses on speed. And this is only the DD whose CoA could very likely have been spent on Bird Cage and whose physical strength dropped significantly thanks to Gamma Knife.
> 
> I agree Katakuri's CoA has better feats but let's not inflate the difference like heaven and earth.


 Katakuri >>> G4 Luffy before his future sight + snakeman + general haki level upgrades

and that G4 Luffy is stronger than Dressrosa G4 Luffy.


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## GilDLax (Sep 15, 2018)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Katakuri >>> G4 Luffy before his future sight + snakeman + general haki level upgrades


But not because he's physically stronger than G4, it's because of his CoO. It's canon head-on exchange of blow didn't end well for Katakuri. 



xmysticgohanx said:


> and that G4 Luffy is stronger than Dressrosa G4 Luffy.


No evidence whatsoever. If your logic is ''that's just how shounen trope works'', fine, but how much did G4 increase in strength then? 5%? 20%? We don't know...


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## xenos5 (Sep 15, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> But not because he's physically stronger than G4, it's because of his CoO. It's canon head-on exchange of blow didn't end well for Katakuri.





What about here? G4 Snakeman Luffy's fist still feels pain from clashing with Katakuri's Block Mochi fist. That indicates Katakuri's armament is the superior of the two with Block Mochi.



GilDLax said:


> No evidence whatsoever. If your logic is ''that's just how shounen trope works'', fine, but how much did G4 increase in strength then? 5%? 20%? We don't know...



Back in Dressrosa Luffy was completely paralyzed after the time limit for G4 ran out but in the WCI arc he's able to run away and use a haki-less Gear 3 punch. That's proof enough of a big improvement.


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## GilDLax (Sep 16, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> What about here? G4 Snakeman Luffy's fist still feels pain from clashing with Katakuri's Block Mochi fist. That indicates Katakuri's armament is the superior of the two with Block Mochi.


I was talking about Boundman. I already said Snakeman may have been hurt (I'm not sure the two panels are continuous though but I can give Katakuri some charity)


GilDLax said:


> Also Block/Strengthmochi only hurt G2 (which DD also overpowered easily when he was healthy) *and Snakeman* which is clearly weaker than Boundman and focuses on speed.


See?




xenos5 said:


> Back in Dressrosa Luffy was completely paralyzed after the time limit for G4 ran out but in the WCI arc he's able to run away and use a haki-less Gear 3 punch. That's proof enough of a big improvement.


Oda already retconed that in SBS 

Besides, let say Oda didn't retcon, that's just one angle. I can flip it and say DD simply pushed Luffy much further than Katakuri. And the reason people can't accept the latter is...well, it hurts their perceived (if not prejudiced) power level tier


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## Phantom Thief (Oct 26, 2018)

Whew boy


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## sanji's left eye (Oct 29, 2018)

At the start of the battle, Katakuri was dominating G4 Luffy. Dominating a more powerful Boundman than the one DD fought. The one DD fought tossed him around like he was nothing. I'm struggling to even say mid difficulty at this point. Between low and mid so I guess mild difficulty.


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## Icegaze (Nov 2, 2018)

kata wins high diff 
kata= G4 luffy
G4 luffy>doffy

however kaido beats them all in 3 hits


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## Icegaze (Nov 2, 2018)

sanji's left eye said:


> At the start of the battle, Katakuri was dominating G4 Luffy. Dominating a more powerful Boundman than the one DD fought. The one DD fought tossed him around like he was nothing. I'm struggling to even say mid difficulty at this point. Between low and mid so I guess mild difficulty.



snakeman isnt more powerful. it has weaker defense. snakeman is simply luffy using prediction haki while fighting. thats it.


all forms of G4 are equal and better suited to a specific type of combat

the chubby version best defense
snakeman  best attack
boundman is the middle ground where he isnt sacrificing one aspect for the other


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## xenos5 (Nov 2, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> snakeman isnt more powerful. it has weaker defense. snakeman is simply luffy using prediction haki while fighting. thats it.



You are forgetting when Katakuri fought Boundman (right after the merienda and when he calmed down and was able to use Future Sight again). That is what @sanji's left eye is referring too. He said Katakuri dominated a stronger "Boundman" because that's exactly what Katakuri did, he’s not talking about Snakeman. With future sight he was completely avoiding being hit by Kong Organ, he knocked a Kong Gun away with Giant Power Mochi, and he sent Boundman Luffy flying each time Giant Power Mochi hit as well as doing enough damage to make his eyes go white and have him cough up blood.

Giant Power Mochi proved to be a Boundman power level move (equal to Kong Gun and likely matching Leo Bazooka if Katakuri used two of them like how Luffy uses both hands for Leo Bazooka).

Luffy chose to use G4 Snakeman even after improving his CoO because Boundman was too slow and would've just kept getting knocked away by Power Mochi until it ran out. Luffy likely thought King Kong Gun would’ve been dodged as he didn’t even try it.

The difference between Katakuri’s performance against Boundman and Doffy’s performance is night and day.


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## Icegaze (Nov 2, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> You are forgetting when Katakuri fought Boundman (right after the merienda and when he calmed down and was able to use Future Sight again). That is what @sanji's left eye is referring too. He said Katakuri dominated a stronger "Boundman" because that's exactly what Katakuri did, he’s not talking about Snakeman. With future sight he was completely avoiding being hit by Kong Organ, he knocked a Kong Gun away with Giant Power Mochi, and he sent Boundman Luffy flying each time Giant Power Mochi hit as well as doing enough damage to make his eyes go white and have him cough up blood.
> 
> Giant Power Mochi proved to be a Boundman power level move (equal to Kong Gun and likely matching Leo Bazooka if Katakuri used two of them like how Luffy uses both hands for Leo Bazooka).
> 
> ...



i get what you are saying. forgive my still being quite new to one piece in a sense
however katakuri performance is more future sight based than strength based correct?

sorry i re read the luffy v doffy chapter. kata mid diff at most?
did kata ever get hit by KKG?


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## xenos5 (Nov 2, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> i get what you are saying. forgive my still being quite new to one piece in a sense
> however katakuri performance is more future sight based than strength based correct?



Giant Power Mochi and Diced Mochi (Katakuri’s two strongest techniques) have seriously impressive power at the very least. And Mochi Thrust has very good lethality, it can be more dangerous than other attacks that may have more behind them just due to the added piercing effect.

Doffy never damaged Boundman Luffy no matter what attack he used but Power Mochi made him cough up blood.



Icegaze said:


> sorry i re read the luffy v doffy chapter. kata mid diff at most?
> did kata ever get hit by KKG?



Kata never got hit by KKG. He did get hit by King Cobra (G4 Snakeman’s ultimate attack) after having already received damage from earlier attacks (including stabbing himself with his own trident).


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## Claudio Swiss (Nov 2, 2018)

Katakuri slaughters him day n out


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Nov 7, 2018)

Katakuri mid diff.


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## Tatlo (Nov 8, 2018)

Everyone's forgetting base Luffy matched evenly with Doflamingo (they dodged and exchanged a lot of blows with each other, implying equal strength and speed).
This same base Luffy was getting ragdolled by Katakuri. If Katakuri was fighting Doffy, he'd give Doffy a hard time too.

So basically, you have a guy who can:

see the future
is stronger and faster than Doffy

The only chances Doffy has of staying as long as he can in the fight are:

his monstrous endurance
his versatile power set
He can use defensive techniques like Spider's Web to block gigantic attacks like Power Mochi, or Diced Mochi.
He can use Black Knight for diversion tactics so he can blindside Katakuri with surprise attacks (and God knows he needs diversion against a guy who can see a few seconds into the future).
Hell, Doffy can fly which makes him an annoying pest who can maneuver all around the battlefield. It won't be easy to put Doffy down

Finally, Doflamingo's manipulative streak really shows when he is in battle. He can get really creative when he has to (in a 2v2, he manipulated Bellamy and created a clone to fight Luffy so he and Trebol can gang up on Law). Basically, he isn't honorable unlike Katakuri who has those tendencies.

*My verdict: *Doflamingo gives Katakuri a high-diff fight on a good day, but loses 9 times out of 10.

On a normal day, Katakuri mid-diffs him.
(And me saying "9 times out of 10" means there is a probability of Doffy beating Katakuri, but those chances are really, REALLY slim)


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## trance (Nov 9, 2018)

@Soca close this pls

we've come to a universal agreement on who wins (like it wasn't obvious lmao)


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