# Kunoichi in Yuugito's position vs Hidan and Kakuzu



## ueharakk (Apr 5, 2013)

Location: Yuugito vs Hidan + Kakuzu (starts in this sewer area) 
Knowledge: 
- kunoichi: only know hidan and kakuzu are from akatsuki
- Hidan and Kakuzu: reputation
Distance: 30 meters
Restrictions: none

Kunoichi:

1) Konan
2) Mei
3) Tsunade

how well do they do against the duo?  Can they do better than Yuugito or even beat them or do they die without killing Kakuzu once (assuming he didn't die).


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 5, 2013)

The sewers are quite an enclosed location iirc. It would be perfect for Mei to launch her futton, or for Tsunade to go all smashy smashy. In Mei's case, there's every chance she could kill both Akatsuki at once with her mist. However, in Tsunade's case it would be a lot more arduous, there's only a 50/50 chance she would win the match-up, though as long as she has access to Katsuyu and Byakugou, I'm confident she could take out at least one of them. 

Konan has nothing in her arsenal to defeat Kakuzu, and I'm sure repeated raiton and katon blasts would wear her down.​​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 5, 2013)

*Konan*

Schools Hidan by not having blood, and binding him.  Kakuzu katons the whole room and burns every shred of paper.  She can hide in the water, and I don't buy raiton zapping her with any effect, but she can't kill Kakuzu.  Her only chance of living is hiding a portion of herself in the water and making him think he wiped her out totally so that he leaves.  Unless Mei prepped by sewage as part of her trap.

*Mei*

Mei indoors with a suiton source.  She fills the room with acid, counters katons and futons with suiton, and pretty much wins so long as she avoids getting fried by Gian on the water.  

*Tsunade*

Enclosed locations greatly favor Tsunade, and most of the floor is water so drawing circles is mostly out of the question.  She probably blows Hidan apart or burries him during their first few skirmishes.  Kakuzu would want to stay at range, but he's stuck in a small room that will just get smaller, and his masks won't have to freedom to fly out of range in here.  He presumably wants to avoid burying himself, so his larger explosive attacks are going to have to be turned down or not used.  (That said, his hand can doton, so maybe he could dig himself out?)  At any rate, I think he's too badly nerfed by the location to win, and Hidan is too badly nerfed by Tsunade's new strength feats.  

Tsunade and Mei are more disadvantaged in an outdoor location, wheras Konan is helped.


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## ueharakk (Apr 5, 2013)

^^^ like the canon fight, Hidan, Kakuzu, Mei, Tsunade and Konan are not restricted to fighting indoors, it's only where the fight starts, either party can bust open the walls if it is advantageous to them and if they are able to do it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 5, 2013)

Oh, sorry, I tend to think of locations as limited to where they're listed.


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Apr 5, 2013)

*Konan*

I think it depends on whether she has prep or not.  Even without her 600 billion explosive tags, she can probably generate enough to replicate what Shikamaru did to Hidan.  Kakuzu would obviously be much tougher to blow up due to Doton Domu, so she might need a more substantial store.  Of course, her ability to discorporate also makes her incredibly difficult to kill.  Her best bet might be to take out Hidan, discorporate into a swarm of paper butterflies, and escape.

*Mei*

Since acid can erode rock, and Mei's particular acid has been shown to melt Susano'o, I would assume that her acid mist can damage Kakuzu despite Doton Domu.  I think the common KC tactic of having her set up Kirigakure to blind her opponents (neither of them is a sensor) and then infiltrating the acid mist into the regular mist could work here.

*Tsunade*

Her punches could pose a danger to Kakuzu since, like Mei's acid, they were capable of damaging Susano'o.  And while she has Byakugo active, I can't really see her being killed by the Akatsuki duo.  She could potentially disable Hidan with Ranshinsho, as unlike Kabuto, he probably doesn't have the intellect to figure out how to fight despite it.  Kakuzu's a tougher nut to crack--like Godaime Tsunade, I'm less sure of her ability to destroy all of his hearts.


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## KakuzuForever (Apr 6, 2013)

I'd tend to agree with most of what's already been said.

Enclosed spaces greatly benefits Mei, and somewhat benefits Tsunade.

Acid mist/Yoton are much harder to avoid due to the enclosed spaces.

But as what has also been said, the sewers are destructable that allows it to become an open space again (as Niibi showed us, here and here).

Hidan doesn't have the capability to open the area up, but Kakuzu surely does.

If kakuzu isn't acting stupid from PIS like against Naruto, he'll realize that he is in trouble if he fights in the sewers against Tsunade and Mei in an enclosed area.  

Konan can stalemate with hidan, and never beat Kakuzu.  Her best bet is to play possum like others have said until hidan/kakuzu thinks she is dead and leaves.


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## Bonly (Apr 6, 2013)

*Konan vs Zombie duo.*

This one comes down to whether or not Konan can outlast Kakuzu or not. Once Konan enter her paper form Hidan becomes useless as she has no blood for him to swallow. Hidan can't hurt her while she can use some of her exploding tags and can blow off body parts rendering him useless. Konan had took Jiraiya's Katon and wasn't damaged really. I'd expect Kakuzu's Katon to have the same effect as I doubt Konan will get hit directly by it. Kakuzu's Futon nor Ration will kill her either and CQC isn't working either so Kakuzu's only way of winning is for Konan to run out of chakra and finish her off when her Shikigami no Mai ends. On the other hand due to Doton Domu, Konan can't hurt Kakuzu either so most should could to is cover him him completely although with all the threads he might be able to poke a bunch of holes to break out. Either way I still see it as how can outlast who here which is a 50/50 shot IMO.


*Mei vs the Zombie duo.*

First thing Mei did when she was in an enclose area was use her Futton which was able to melt Sasuke's Susanoo after shortly touching it. Hidan is screwed as he'll start melting fast as well as his scythe should as well as his insides since he'll breath in the acid mist, Mei should stay away from him long enough for him to die. Kakuzu will have to keep Doton Domu up or else he will start to melt as well but sadly he still needs to breath and he'll breath in the acid mist. Only way the Zombie duo can win is if they manage to get out of the sewer like they did against Yugito which then Kakuzu could potentially solo. So if they stay in the sewer too long then Mei wins more times then not, if the Zombie duo get out then they would win more times then not IMO.


*Tsunade vs Zombie duo.*

Hidan won't be useful here, again lol. Well not much anyway, almost none of his attacks will so he can constantly stab himself but Tsunade can tank it and with Byakugo she can heal the damage. So unless Hidan goes for a head strike, he can't do much and this is assuming he can get some blood from her before she blows a huge hole inside of him. This would really depend on how well can Doton Domu deal with Tsunade's strength. Going by the databooks, they are very few non ration attacks that can get through it but sadly we don't know what they would be. If Tsunade can't get through Domu then the Zombie duo wins this more times then not, if she can then Tsunade stands a slight chance, although it would also depend on how many hits it take to get through Domu if they can but then again im sure Kakuzu wouldn't go in CQC knowing her dangerous strength which also leads to him spamming from afar.

I'd say Konan has the best chance out of the 3 to win but even then thats a 50/50 shot.


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## joshhookway (Apr 6, 2013)

I think only Mei wins.

Mei has stronger elemental jutsu than kakuzu and Hidan is a non factor since he's slow and has no exception power.


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## KakuzuForever (Apr 6, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Either way I still see it as how can outlast who here which is a 50/50 shot IMO.



Everything up until this point I could agree with.

Konan has not been shown to have similar stamina to the likes of Kakuzu (or Kisame).  Her fights have been short and weakly jutsu intense.


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## Bonly (Apr 6, 2013)

KakuzuForever said:


> Everything up until this point I could agree with.
> 
> Konan has not been shown to have similar stamina to the likes of Kakuzu (or Kisame).  Her fights have been short and weakly jutsu intense.



Konan fought against Obito using her Shikigami no Mai for almost the entire fight and set off over 600 Billion explosive tags for 10 minutes straight. I would think that, that used up quite a bit of chakra to be near the same ball park as Kakuzu.


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## KakuzuForever (Apr 6, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> I think only Mei wins.
> 
> Mei has stronger elemental jutsu than kakuzu and Hidan is a non factor since he's slow and has no exception power.



In an enclosed space, you'd probably be right more times than not.

If they could open the sewers up, then she'd die from Hidan/Kakuzu's cheesy combo.  10/10 with easy difficulty, since Mei is mostly a stationary fighter with very fast jutsu execution, but zero physical abilities (kicking an unsuspecting zetsu is something a genin can do).

If kakashi was only able to skirt out on the edge of the blast thanks to sharingan, Mei with no sharingan and even less physical feats, will stand no chance at all.


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## KakuzuForever (Apr 6, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Konan fought against Obito using her Shikigami no Mai for almost the entire fight and set off over 600 Billion explosive tags for 10 minutes straight. I would think that, that used up quite a bit of chakra to be near the same ball park as Kakuzu.



It's highly speculative how much chakra it takes to keep setting off the explosive tags.

The number in general is already a ridiculous number that Kishi pulled out of his butt.  You'd have to remind me of how many years had elapsed in her making the tags.

But to give an idea, on one extreme, if she just made 1 tag per second, it would take her about 19,000 years to make them all.  On a more "practical" side, if she made 1,000 tags per second, then it will take her 19 years.  Note...not 19 years going about her business in her dealings with yahiko or helping to rule as his angel in akatsuki/rain village, but 19 years of every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every year for those 19 years, only making tags (of which, making a single tag in 1 millisecond is already an extreme in itself....doing that for 19 years straight is even more unbelievable).

The 10 minutes is really what counts, however, setting off tags has no comparable measurement like we do for jutsus, which the likes of Kakuzu and Kisame are shown to be of larger pools compared to the average ninja.

Just as much as you can assume that konan has a "vast" chakra pool similar to kakuzu/kisame because setting off tags is very chakra consuming, I can assume that it isn't (or at least, a very small amount compared to the amount required to mold it into jutsu) thereby making us deduce that konan just doesn't have alot of chakra.

In addition, because konan is for all intents and purposes paper, her tag explosive execution is most likely even more efficient than most other ninja.  Similar to how other akatsuki are special and the best at their fields, konan is probably one of the best, if not the best paper tag explosives person in the narutoverse.  As such, similar to other things that kishi has implied throughout the history of the manga, it stands to reason that her use of it compared to say even people like hiruzen is better, in probably chakra effeciency, as well as explosive yield.

Konan was not implied to have greater or lesser chakra pools than the average ninja (you'd have to remind me otherwise from her other showings, as I am not remembering them well enough).

Without something to compare the execution of tag explosives in chakra usage, and also without other indications of her chakra pool as being larger than the normal ninja, it's a little larger assumption to say that she is a chakra monster like kisame/kakuzu than saying that she has normal chakra levels like <insert most other ninja, namely 99% of them>.  The 1% of non-normal chakra levels also include the pitiful chakra levels like kakashi and itachi (as much as it includes the chakra beasts).


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## Bonly (Apr 6, 2013)

KakuzuForever said:


> *Just as much as you can assume that konan has a "vast" chakra pool similar to kakuzu/kisame* because setting off tags is very chakra consuming, *I can assume that it isn't* (or at least, a very small amount compared to the amount required to mold it into jutsu) thereby making us deduce that konan just doesn't have alot of chakra.



And this is what it comes down to. Whether or not one believe she has a high amount of chakra or not, and as you can tell I believe she has a high amount of chakra around Kakuzu's level. Is it an assumption? Sure but so is alot of the stuff people talk about here.


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## I Blue I (Apr 6, 2013)

Konan most definitely has an incredible amount of chakra. The fact that she could detonate 600,000,000,000 explosive tags while maintaining her paper form after executing an attack prior and _camouflaging_ the paper ocean is testament to this. Also, a mere paper clone waltzed into Konoha along with Pein and was able to fight dozens of shinobi while constantly using her Dance of the Shikigami technique without showing any signs of fatigue.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

Konan has ridiculously high stamina. 600 billion is 600 billion, there's no point whining that Kishi pulled it out of his ass. That's 1 billion tags a second, 1 million tags a millisecond, 1000 tags a microsecond, a tag a nanosecond. It seems somewhat logical to me. Even if they use up very little chakra, 600 billion will add up to an insane amount of chakra.

And Konan made these AFTER she defected from Akatsuki, let's not forget. While she was in Akatsuki, she learned more about Obito's technique, but she wasn't planning to go against him. Even if she was, she probably would have left it to Pain, so it's only logical she started preparing after Nagato's death, which is even more impressive.

Regarding the fight:

Konan:

Hidan is useless. Kakuzu may be able to tank Doton Domu, but Konan can make enormous explosions like she did against Obito at first. Kakuzu's elemental attacks aren't going to damage Konan at all, while her explosions may be able to damage Doton Domu. She may fire projectiles non-stop and make it a war of attrition, which she will almost certainly win given her feats. She may simply suffocate him, and Kakuzu's tendrils aren't going to poke holes into Konan's paper if she smothers him completely, they're much harder than steel. She can always disperse and surprise attack Kakuzu, she managed a surprise attack on Jiraiya, and Kakuzu doesn't have the toad silhouette technique. I doubt Kakuzu could escape from a surprise smothering given how quick it was, and she could also use that and finish him with the paper spear (the speed of the smothering wouldn't given him time to use Doton Domu). I think Konan wins, her arsenal is too versatile for them and she can't be damaged by them. Konan wins.

Mei:

The enclosed space helps Mei out greatly, for she can just use her acid mist. This combined with sustained lava attacks means Hidan should be finished very quickly, and I doubt whether Kakuzu's Doton Domu can survive what melted Susanoo. Mei wins.

Tsunade:

The duo have no way of the beating Tsunade in Byakugou. If Hidan gets a cut, she will counterattack and blow his body apart. If he somehow manages the ritual, Tsunade will heal from it and finish him quickly. Kakuzu's elemental blasts will have no effect on Tsunade's Byakugou, Kakashi tanked the wind blast and Tsunade tanked 5 of Madara's fireballs, which I assume are on a higher level than Kakuzu's techniques. Meanwhile, once she lands a hit, Kakuzu is finished. Doton Domu won't protect him, she busted open Susanoo with ease, and if need be, she will punch each mask into oblivion too. She's just on a different level to these two, she doesn't even need Katsuyu. Tsunade stomps.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 6, 2013)

> It's highly speculative how much chakra it takes to keep setting off the explosive tags.



600 billion times any greater than zero number is going to be ridiculous.  We have no set measurment for any chakra, just guesses.  Guess that one raikiri is worth 50 tags.  She has a lot of chakra.  Guess that raikiri is worth 100 million tags.  She has a lot of chakra.  Guess that one raikiri is worth a billion tags.  She has a lot of chakra.  Guess 10 billion, 50 billion, ect - the amount of comparisons that put her into stamina freak range are plentiful and believable.  Whereas the ones that don't are less so.



> The 10 minutes is really what counts, however, setting off tags has no comparable measurement like we do for jutsus, which the likes of Kakuzu and Kisame are shown to be of larger pools compared to the average ninja.



10 minutes is already considered a very long fight for ninja.


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## KakuzuForever (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Konan has ridiculously high stamina. 600 billion is 600 billion, there's no point whining that Kishi pulled it out of his ass. That's 1 billion tags a second, 1 million tags a millisecond, 1000 tags a microsecond, a tag a nanosecond. It seems somewhat logical to me. Even if they use up very little chakra, 600 billion will add up to an insane amount of chakra.



Actually it is something to "whine" about. You are seeing it from the wrong direction though.

Setting them off isn't what I was arguing. The reason why it is an *sspull is because of how ridiculous it is to make.  

Because every second of every day isn't fathomable, let's equate it to a more "realistic" version, that allows konan for sleep and daily work with yahiko.  So let's call it a 40 hour work week, where her sole work is to make tags at 1,000 per second during that work.

If she did that, she will be working for 80.13 years at it.  Again, a ridiculous number, meant primarily as hype.

The quantity of tags is superfluous, as even you have calculated to point out.

1 billion tags surrounding an opponent is a riduclous amount to encase them in explosions.

1 billion.....for layman's purposes that is an incomprehendible amount.

To surround someone in 1 billion tags will encase them in a very wide and deep area, to calculate it would reveal reductio ad absurdum, which I could do if you want (at the very least, it would support the "ocean" vastness that we were shown).  Then account also that while a significant of that is wasted (given the size of the paper ocean) she still has to constantly move the paper towards obito to within explosion range at a distance directly rated to the inverse of the paper's thickness (probably 0.1 mm) divided by the quantity of tags within that area allowable within 1 second (which would help her case of chakra, since it takes chakra to move them; but again, is still evidence that kishi just pulled a safe big number out of his butt to make sure there is enough).




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> 600 billion times any greater than zero number is going to be ridiculous.  We have no set measurment for any chakra, just guesses.  Guess that one raikiri is worth 50 tags.  She has a lot of chakra.  Guess that raikiri is worth 100 million tags.  She has a lot of chakra.  Guess that one raikiri is worth a billion tags.  She has a lot of chakra.  Guess 10 billion, 50 billion, ect - the amount of comparisons that put her into stamina freak range are plentiful and believable.  Whereas the ones that don't are less so.
> 
> 10 minutes is already considered a very long fight for ninja.



Agreed.

However, imagine if a ninja were to throw 1 kunai per second for 10 minutes.

Would even a genin in the ninja world run out of chakra, or would it require him to have chakra beast stores of it? Of course not, we are not talking a riduculous number here.

If he were to magically be capable of throwing 1,000,000,000 of them per second for 10 minutes, could he be a chakra beast?  Potentially.  Again, similar to konan's situation.

But it is against a testament to ridiculous numbers here.  Kishi pulled out a ridiculously large number that cannot be supported in konan making them all within those years.

Now we are forced to backwards calculate from that number in order to evaluate how many tags go off per second, in order for it to equate to her statement of 10 minutes.

A 10 minute fight in normal ninja fights aren't simply using basic ninja tools (other than maybe tenten).  I doubt any ninja currently would have any issue fighting for 10 minutes straight with only explosive tags, kunai's, etc.  It's the fact that it's 10 minutes of unorthodox amounts of these tools that puts it into question.


*In summation and further elaboration*

This is sort of similar to kakashi's plot indued chakra boost, in the fact that it is an unexplainable thing (due to what i describe in the lagniappe).  Kakashi was given an insane amount of chakra recently that is a major discrepancy given his chakra evolvement from part 1 to part 2, and from part 2 to the war arc (not to mention, an absence of training).

For konan, the number was an arbitrarily large one that kishi used to ensure that it was formidable for reasons of plot, without thoughts about if it is even remotely feasible for her to do.

Once this was done, the calculation of chakra is set, and indeed it would give her a significant amount even if each is near miniscule to execute.

This is an issue of "false premise".  We are calculating based on a ridiculous number.

If kishi were to say she created 600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 tags (600 sextillion) in order to defeat tobi, would you still consider that a practical number for her to create in her lifetime?

I shouldn't have to calculate how long it would take her to make that many, in order for one to realize that this number is also outside of reasonable means to make.



*Skip to the very end of the lagniappe if you need more (specifically the red/bolded/underlined parts).*


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## KakuzuForever (Apr 6, 2013)

*As a lagniappe (and some extra support if the above wasn't sufficient):*
So the question is, what is a reasonable number?

*Spoiler*: __ 




Obviously I dont have the answer to that, but we can make a scale at the very least.  One that is inversely proportional to chakra stores as it relates to making them.

On one extreme, 1 tag per second for 10 minutes is easily doable for even a genin (as they aren't normal humans afterall).

Increasing the scale will increase the amount of chakra required for said shinobi to have in order to pull it off, while drecreasing the possibility of konan being able to make them in her lifetime (let alone one that involves her duties as the angel of god).

Rough scale:

*Spoiler*: __ 




1 tag per second for 10 mins
2 tags per second for 10 mins
3 tags per second for 10 mins
4 tags per second for 10 mins
5 tags per second for 10 mins
//
10 tags per second for 10 mins
20 tags per second for 10 mins
30 tags per second for 10 mins
40 tags per second for 10 mins
50 tags per second for 10 mins
//
// - (x100 in between)
//
1000 tags per second for 10 mins
2000 tags per second for 10 mins
3000 tags per second for 10 mins
4000 tags per second for 10 mins
5000 tags per second for 10 mins
//
10,000 tags per second for 10 mins
20,000 tags per second for 10 mins
30,000 tags per second for 10 mins
40,000 tags per second for 10 mins
50,000 tags per second for 10 mins
//
// - (x100 in between)
//
1,000,000 tags per second for 10 mins
2,000,000 tags per second for 10 mins
3,000,000 tags per second for 10 mins
4,000,000 tags per second for 10 mins
//
10,000,000 tags per second for 10 mins
20,000,000 tags per second for 10 mins
30,000,000 tags per second for 10 mins
40,000,000 tags per second for 10 mins
50,000,000 tags per second for 10 mins
//
// - (x100 in between)
// 
1,000,000,000 tags per second for 10 mins




Within that disjointed list (for brevity's sake) lies normal shinobi chakra quantities of using explosive tags.  Beyond which we could count as above normal, and then further of which we could count as "chakra beasts".

It's hard to pick one and say what that value is really, but at the very least we can try to calculate a somewhat reasonable amount of time to create them, and then hypothesize from there if it's below, normal, above average, or chakra beast levels of chakra required to execute them.  

To pull an arbitrary number out of my own butt, I would think 20 years sounds reasonable in time from when Yahiko dies and the current version of akatsuki is created (meaning, I'm assuming they meet obito roughly that time, and konan immediately starts making tags from not trusting him, despite not knowingh is secret yet; we'll give her some precog ability) up until konan's death.  Some timelines show roughly this amount of time as passing as well for those that think  this number was purely arbitrary.

Now again, this is for a practical version.  So we can stick with my estimate of a "40 hour work week".

Why 40 hours?  Again, people can understand this number.  Why not 80 hours or 100 hours?

Because it's extremely doubtful konan can spend that much time per week WHILE doing her full time other job of being the angel in akatsuki and all of its dealings, AND because we also have to account for tobi keeping an eye out of all his underlings (he did have zetsu afterall).

Assuming even 40 hours a week is pushing it in terms of giving her that much time to herself (it should be way less) where tobi/zetsu have zero knowledge that she is spending each second of each minute of each  hour per week for 52 weeks for ~20 years purely making tags.  But again, 40 hours is more tangible.

Now we have to throw out numbers and see what sticks as reasonable.
How many tags per second can she make?  Then how many tags will that add up to in those 20 years?  Then how many tags does that equate to exploding per second in 10 minutes?

Values used will be done to make the calculations easy:

*Spoiler*: __ 




1 tag per second ~ 150million (obviously she can do this, but it's here just to start the scale)
2 /s ~ 300m
5 /s ~ 750m
//
10/s ~ 1.5bil
20/s ~ 3b
50/s ~ 7.5b
//
100/s ~ 15bil
200/s ~ 30b
500/s ~ 75b
//
1k/s ~ 150b
2k/s ~ 300b
5k/s ~ 750b (obviously we are at the upper end given that she had 600 bil)




So now with these values, how many tags per second would have to be detonated?

*Spoiler*: __ 




150m = 250,000 exploded per second
300m = 500,000 exploded per second
500m = 833,333 exploded per second
//
I won't bore you with the rest of the calculations.




Comparing that list back to the one looking at # of tags exploded per second for 10 minutes, we see that it is near the bottom of it, 2 large scale breaks below the start.

So even at the lowest value of konan only creating 1 per second (way below her ability), it's already a number that is probably beyond a normal shinobi's chakra.  250,000 per second for 10 minutes straight is quite a bit, unless the chakra usage is really miniscule.

So obviously we can surmise that ok, with this extreme, we can at least support Konan's ability to make her tags and hide it from obito/zetsu, since given these calculations, she didn't have to spend every waking second of a 40 hour work week in secret for 20 years to make them.

She could have done it easily on her free time doing them in bulks.  This is true.

We will, however, still come up with 250,000 exploded per second for only 150,000,000 total tags (*far, far below 600,000,000,000; remember, there is a factor difference of 4,000!!!*).

Again, via reductio ad absurdum, kishi's use of explosive tags was purely plot.

It is our calculations that necessitate otherwise.  But this is, as seen in BD's where sometimes we go too far by reading into it way too much.

*Similar to how some people assume Kakuzu has speed feats b/c he broadsided kakashi (due to him being on the ground while kakashi dashes to hidan, then gets up to not just catch up to kakashi, but overtake him to kick him; calculating this would give kakuzu more speed than kakashi, and kakashi isn't slow), you are missing the point.*

*The point of this was that kakashi thought kakuzu was dead, so the attack was simply for dramatic/story purposes.  Trying to use distance and speed and time to calculate and say that kakuzu is faster than kakashi is the wrong deduction because that is NOT what kishi was implying.*

*On that same token, Konan's 600billion tags is exactly this.  Kishi meant for the drama/story of konan being able to hurt/counter obito.  He gave absolutely no other indication or implication via either say so, or comparisons with others that Konan has a "chakra beast" level amount of chakra.*

Because I don't know konan's character super well, I can concede with scans showing otherwise if there are instances that kishi implied she had "chakra beast" levels of chakra (or even slightly above normal, rather than purely normal).


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## PopoTime (Apr 6, 2013)

In this scenario Mei dominates.

Futton combined with Kirigakure no jutsu and a nearby water source makes this easy pickings in my opinion.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

@ KakuzuForever

I think you're trying to take this from a real world point of view too much.

I mean, Konan can split into thousands of sheets of paper in an instant. She can make thousands to wrap up Nagato and Yahiko's bodies. She can conjure up thousands and thousands to create the enormous tree they were hiding in. It's not inconceivable that in the manga, Konan can create such an incredible number of tags although it is impossible in real life.

As for your part about Konan's stamina, no one has ever stated Tsunade to be a chakra beast, yet her feats show otherwise so it's not really fair to say just because no one has commented on her chakra levels she can't have enormous reserves. I mean, Konan barely got any fights in the manga (screw you for that, Kishi ).


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## KakuzuForever (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> @ KakuzuForever
> 
> I think you're trying to take this from a real world point of view too much.
> 
> ...



That's my point.

She has gotten very little panel time.  As such, she has little showing that she has "beastly" chakra.

Tsunade has had much more panel time.  As such, she has been shown to have more stamina through it.

Again, kishi's method of storytelling was to show that konan had a way to beat obito (discounting MS),* it wasn't to show her as a chakra beast* in the same fashion as Kakuzu's suprise attack on Kakashi was meant to give him "speed" feats.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

KakuzuForever said:


> That's my point.
> 
> She has gotten very little panel time.  As such, she has little showing that she has "beastly" chakra.
> 
> ...



But Tsunade was supposed to show herself as a good medical support ninja, not as someone who has enormous reserves, but the feats show she does have enormous reserves, similar to how Konan's feats show her to be a chakra beast. If the feat fits, I would say it's a valid one even if Kishi may not have explicitly wanted to show that.


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## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> But Tsunade was supposed to show herself as a good medical support ninja, not as someone who has enormous reserves, but the feats show she does have enormous reserves, similar to how Konan's feats show her to be a chakra beast. If the feat fits, I would say it's a valid one even if Kishi may not have explicitly wanted to show that.



tsunade's feats show she has a super huge reserve for 2 reasons that were stated:

1) her senju/uzumake dna give her super stamina

2) her yin seal has chakra that she has stored up for months and years, thus that would give her super large reserves while in battle 

thus she doesn't have to be stated to be a chakra beast in the sense of Ei or Naruto in order to have the super stamina showings she does.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> tsunade's feats show she has a super huge reserve for 2 reasons that were stated:
> 
> 1) her senju/uzumake dna give her super stamina
> 
> ...



You have a point about the Senju/Uzumaki DNA but the yin seal chakra is probably only a week's worth of chakra she gathered at most, if you consider the timeline of the war, yet it gave her enough chakra to fight all day, bring Onoki to his full chakra twice, Gaara to his full chakra once, and give Mei chakra too.

Karin has never been shown to be a stamina beast despite being Uzumaki, so I think my point still stands that if Konan has the feats of a stamina beast, she should be regarded as one.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 6, 2013)

1) Konan vs. Hidan and Kakuzu- Konan is untouchable to Hidan, but she eventually gets shredded apart and incinerated repeated blasts of Katon: Zukokku, especially if merged with Futon: Atsugai.

The Immortals win low-difficulty.

2) Mei Terumi vs. Hidan and Kakuzu- Things aren't looking good for the Immortals in this match, as the Mizukage's Futton: Komu no Jutsu can target both of them at once and I don't think Domu can save Kakuzu. Giant Suitons protect Mei from any Katons Kakuzu tries to fire at her while he's melting. As long as Raiton: Gian doesn't pierce through her assault and strike her anyway, she wraps this up soundly.

Mei wins mid-difficulty.


3) Tsunade vs. Hidan and Kakuzu- Knowing she's facing two S-Rank criminals at once Tsunade will activate Byakugo. Hidan is once again a non-factor as he's set to be removed from the fight in his initial exchange with the Slug Princess who then moves right on over to Kakuzu. Thanks to her regeneration she can basically juggernaut through Kakuzu's elemental attacks and obliterate his hearts, which have limited space to avoid her high-pressure style of fighting in the sewers. If she doesn't break Domu on the first strike she can hit him with Ranshinsho and pummel him to death from there.

Tsunade wins mid-difficulty.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 6, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> 1) Konan vs. Hidan and Kakuzu- Konan is untouchable to Hidan, but she eventually gets shredded apart and incinerated repeated blasts of Katon: Zukokku, especially if merged with Futon: Atsugai.
> 
> The Immortals win low-difficulty.



Konan can tank katons from Jiraiya with no real damage, just a few sheets of paper were burned. Remember, this isn't normal paper, her paper is harder and stronger than steel.


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## joshhookway (Apr 6, 2013)

KakuzuForever said:


> In an enclosed space, you'd probably be right more times than not.
> 
> If they could open the sewers up, then she'd die from Hidan/Kakuzu's cheesy combo.  10/10 with easy difficulty, since Mei is mostly a stationary fighter with very fast jutsu execution, but zero physical abilities (kicking an unsuspecting zetsu is something a genin can do).
> 
> If kakashi was only able to skirt out on the edge of the blast thanks to sharingan, Mei with no sharingan and even less physical feats, will stand no chance at all.



I feel like Me's Water Dragon is stronger than Kakuzu's masks. Mei can use lava release to melt hidan to death.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 7, 2013)

KakuzuForever said:


> Agreed.
> 
> However, imagine if a ninja were to throw 1 kunai per second for 10 minutes.
> 
> ...



Spoiler'd for length.

I agree that your calculations, as done, seem ridiculous.  I also agree that it's a stupidly huge number.  However, one thing that you're forgetting is that Konan's paper can create paper.  

This means that, each piece of paper she creates, can, in turn, create more paper, allowing her generation to rise exponentially, rather than at a static rate of 1000 every second.  Applying this to explosive tags means that if she generates 1000 tags in one second from no paper, then in the next second she has 1000^2, 100,000^2, ect.  On the lower end, where each tag can only make one other tag, you 1000*2, 2000*2, 4000*2, ect.  

You could say that her ability to task that amount of paper is unbelievable, but we already saw her do just that when she controlled an ocean of 600 billion tags, so working backwards it's not unbelievable. 

The second fair objection is that generating that amount in each second is kind of ridiculous.  We're just using one second increments for the sake of argument.  It could take her a minute, or ten, but she had a fair aount of time to prep her ocean even just between Nagato's death and Tobi's appearance.  Given that she made that giant tree outside Konoha on the fly, she can clearly make a lot of paper on short order anyway, so what constitutes reasonable for a time frame shouldn't be more than a few minutes anyway.  

The third objection might be that making explosive tags takes more chakra than just setting them off, if you assume that the tags are pre-endowed with chakra, and the amount isn't dictated at the time of use.  But given that she had days to rest between batches, the existence of soldier pills that give stupidly huge stamina boosts, and the knowledge that medics can restore the chakra pools, even that doesn't seem like it would pose a problem.  

It might have, and probably was, an arbitrarily huge number that Kishi pulled out for a wow factor, but given what we know about her, and about the universe, it's not impossible.


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## KakuzuForever (Apr 7, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> ...Konan's paper can create paper.
> 
> This means that, each piece of paper she creates, can, in turn, create more paper, allowing her generation to rise exponentially, rather than at a static rate of 1000 every second.  Applying this to explosive tags means that if she generates 1000 tags in one second from no paper, then in the next second she has 1000^2, 100,000^2, ect.  On the lower end, where each tag can only make one other tag, you 1000*2, 2000*2, 4000*2, ect.



This is *THE* best point.  Your other time requirement elaborations doesn't even need to be stated given this growth curve.

If her paper can create paper, then 600B is no longer a ridiculous number (even if it were pulled out of his butt).  As with the basic doubling problem on a checkers board, she'll reach a huge number very quickly.

I retract my impractical statement of her making the tags.

I still stand by my point of her chakra though.  I still believe that kishi didn't primarily mean for her to have chakra beast levels, but instead this is inferred (erroneously like from those posing Kakuzu has speed feats) from his primary purpose of her just having a feat that was meant to beat tobi.


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 8, 2013)

Kakuzu could potentially solo  3 times in a row.

the lack of room favors him, not mei/Tsunade. Its Kakuzu, not Mei that has the greater foffense & stamina. Its Kakuzu, not Tsunade that has the greater durability& defense(tho' she has better endurance).

He wont worry about hurting Hidan obviously, & his raw fire power is amplified by the cavern & wont bw stymied by the stoutness of a bijuu. Ever Seen the movie _Backdraft??_

Konan cant escape & Tsunade engages Hidan & gets blasted too.

Meis suiton can stall, but it wont hurt the doton defense, while none of her other jutsu can even _compete_ w/ his jutsu.
Kakuzu w/o pis is likely to blow & blast mei & her mist into a tunnel of no return; no matter if it starts collapsing. Zombies gonna zombie


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## ueharakk (Apr 8, 2013)

since the thread is somewhat dieing down, I'll add my input.



diadora Lotto said:


> Kakuzu could potentially solo  3 times in a row.
> 
> the lack of room favors him, not mei/Tsunade. Its Kakuzu, not Mei that has the greater foffense & stamina. Its Kakuzu, not Tsunade that has the greater durability& defense(tho' she has better endurance).
> 
> ...



I think I'd agree with this post the most.

*Konan vs Zombies:*
I don't think she does much to either of the duo.  First off, Kakuzu's katons are going to do a lot of damage to Konan, if not outright defeat her if she takes on full force.
Proof:

*Spoiler*: __ 




They are far greater than jiraiya's, itachi's, or Sasuke's, they are more along the lines of Madara's Katons (not his super huge one though).
 The fire wave was tall and wide enough to fully encompass multiple large trees.  This gives you the scale of how big those trees are.  
Even while in SM, Jiraiya's endan doesn't even come close to Kakuzu's katon.  
jiraiya's base katon destroyed a lot of her papers




next, raiton Gian will probably kill or inflict heavy damage on Konan as she was unable to react to, scatter, or dodge Jiraiya's toad bullet while Chouji and Shikamaru couldn't do anything despite having ample warning to move when raiton gian was aimed at them.  Raiton gian fires bolts that have the power of a raikiri as Kakashi needed that in order to equal both bolts.  

Konan's most devestating attacks would be covering her opponent with explosive tags which are not doing much to kakuzu if he has doton domu, not like it will even matter since he can easily blow the papers away and damage her with his huge fuuton.

her stamina is sort of like tsunades in that the more paper is destroyed the more stamina she has to use in order to create more and recover from the damage.  We see that after losing a good portion of her paper body, it takes a significant amount of stamina for her to recover from.

Thus I think Konan vs Kakuzu would be heavily one-sided as Kakuzu has counters for everything she has and will eat up her stamina very quickly with his super powerful elemental attacks, and  she wouldn't even take out one of his masks.

*Mei vs Zombies:*
Despite her having a water source, I still think she loses quite handily.  Her acid doesn't instantly kill a person when it comes into contact with them, and Kakuzu's body should offer resistance against it in addition to domu providing further resistance.  Kakuzu's fuuton though can easily blow away the mist while hidan charges in and pressures her in CQC.  I don't see suiryu damaging kakuzu with domu, or doing much to hidan.    Her lava should most definitley be a counter for the fuuton mask, but if Kakuzu combines the fuuton with a katon, I don't see the lava overpowering that.  And of course if the zombie duo are getting overwhelmed in that location Kakuzu could blow the walls down with his physical strength or offensive masks.  

Again, I don't think she'd take out a single one of kakuzu's masks due to how their techniques stack.

*Tsunade vs Zombies:*
Tsunade is the one that might end up taking out a couple of hearts.  She can definitely run through Kakuzu's attacks and hurt him even with his doton domu activated considering her durability and strength feats.  She knows she's fighting akatsuki members at a disadvantage in numbers and thus she would activate byakugo.  Kakuzu's elemental jutsus would probably drain her a lot, but the key to their win would be hidan and his blood drawing abilities.  With no knowledge, either way and the amount of blood tsunade canonically lets out when fighting, I see Hidan succeeding in his ritual and stabbing himself in the gut.  Then tsunade either laughs it off and continues her assault, or she plays dead and catches Kakuzu or hidan by surprise either taking a heart or mangling Hidan's body with a punch.  After they get knowledge on her durability however, I see Hidan possibly beheading himself while in the circle or racking up the damage done to her with quick stabs.  Of course the moment tsunade knows the trick of the circle, she is going to try and prevent hidan from staying in the circle either by pushing him out of it, destroying the ground beneath the circle, and then mangling his body with a punch or making it so he can't move with raishinshou.

And then we can bring in katsuya for additional help.

This one I think tsunade has a good chance of winning herself.


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