# Toneri vs JJ Obito!!



## Hi no Ishi (Nov 3, 2017)

Battle of the whiners!
Two of the worst battle for first.

Toneri vs JJ Obito

No restrictions, no time limits.

Location Moon City

Distance 30M 
 Killing Intent 

Fight!!

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 2


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## Android (Nov 3, 2017)

Toneri rapes him.
He's much more faster and has better defense and his firepower albeit inferior, but it's more practical.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 2


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## ARGUS (Nov 3, 2017)

Juubito shits on him And it’s not even close

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Dislike 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 3, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Toneri rapes him.
> firepower albeit inferior


Inferior? He split the moon in half, then spammed that same move. Do you really think the 4 super TBB are better?


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## Ashi (Nov 3, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> Juubito shits on him And it’s not even close


You're right it isn't close


Toenail mid-difs at worst

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 2


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 3, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Toneri rapes him.
> He's much more faster and has better defense and his firepower albeit inferior, but it's more practical.


There isnt much to support this. Naruto, without six paths sage mode, beat the everliving hell out of Toneri. Obito, on the other hand, was too much for literally everyone the protagonists had. Their strategy for beating him was attack until you cant anymore then let the medics heal you so you can do it again


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## ARGUS (Nov 3, 2017)

Ashi said:


> You're right it isn't close
> 
> 
> Toenail mid-difs at worst


Guy who made BSM naruto EMS Sasuke and everyone in the SA including Madara and Hashirama look like scrubs >>>>>> guy who got punked by a single punch from BSM naruto

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 2


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## Kyu (Nov 4, 2017)

If I were supporting Obito here, the last thing I'd mention would be the level of his opposition. The team that fought & defeated him pales in comparison to the Naruto that KO'd Toneri.


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## Kyu (Nov 4, 2017)

Someone name one person JJ Obito fought who can: 

Tank a Moon Splitting Blade
Overpower said Energy Blade

I'll wait.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3 | Dislike 2


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## Android (Nov 4, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Inferior? He split the moon in half, then spammed that same move. Do you really think the 4 super TBB are better?


I only said that for the sake of not triggering some people

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Android (Nov 4, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> There isnt much to support this. Naruto, without six paths sage mode, beat the everliving hell out of Toneri. Obito, on the other hand, was too much for literally everyone the protagonists had. Their strategy for beating him was attack until you cant anymore then let the medics heal you so you can do it again


There isn't much to support this huh ? 
Obito lost to a squad much more weaker than adult BSM Naruto who was able to tank Toneri's planet splitter sword and showed speed and strength magnitudes upon magnitudes above his teen self. The squad that Obito lost to consisted of a noob BSM Naruto who just obtained his power less than 24 hours ago and a Sasuke who just came from an eye transplant lmao.


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## Trojan (Nov 4, 2017)

Kyu said:


> If I were supporting Obito here, the last thing I'd mention would be the level of his opposition. The team that fought & defeated him pales in comparison to the Naruto that KO'd Toneri.


b,b,but the explosion SIZE!! 

------

OT: Toneri destroys him obviously.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Braiyan (Nov 4, 2017)

Toneri tanked a BSM Rasengan point blank whereas Juubito got a Rasengan sized hole from a SM Rasengan. Let's not pretend the punch that beat Toneri wouldn't vaporize Juubito.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 2


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## ARGUS (Nov 4, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> Toneri tanked a BSM Rasengan point blank whereas Juubito got a Rasengan sized hole from a SM Rasengan. Let's not pretend the punch that beat Toneri wouldn't vaporize Juubito.



Perhaps one of the worst points I have ever seen this year
And that says something

TSB defense tanks and then a clean hit from sword of nonoboku would turn both of them to shit

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Trojan (Nov 4, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> Perhaps one of the worst points I have ever seen this year
> And that says something
> 
> TSB defense tanks and then a clean hit from sword of nonoboku would turn both of them to shit



your reply is even worse. 
I am not even sure you understand what he is saying...

Reactions: Like 3


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## Braiyan (Nov 4, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> Perhaps one of the worst points I have ever seen this year
> And that says something







ARGUS said:


> TSB defense tanks and then a clean hit from sword of nonoboku would turn both of them to shit



I'm not even sure what this is in response to.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 4, 2017)

Another thing i forgot to mention, now that i read other's responses:
1. you would have to say Toneri is about 70% of the Juubi's strength if he beats Obito
2. What is he going to do against the truth seeking balls? Obito showed more finesse than Madara at using them and Madara was able to move them faster than 8 gated guy could move

Reactions: Agree 1


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## kayz (Nov 4, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> 2. What is he going to do against the truth seeking balls? Obito showed more finesse than Madara at using them and Madara was able to move them faster than 8 gated guy could move


Toneri showed better using the truth seeking orbs


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 5, 2017)

kayz said:


> Toneri showed better using the truth seeking orbs


He may have the truth seeking orbs, but Obito's attacks by virtue of being the 10 tail's chakra, are senjutsu based. Toneri's would be chakra based, meaning they would get nullified by the truth seeking orbs

And Obito had some pretty good feats with the balls, you sure toneri was better at using them?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 5, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> He may have the truth seeking orbs, but Obito's attacks by virtue of being the 10 tail's chakra, are senjutsu based. Toneri's would be chakra based, meaning they would get nullified by the truth seeking orbs
> 
> And Obito had some pretty good feats with the balls, you sure toneri was better at using them?


TSB are a byproduct of Six Paths Senjutsu, Toneri has Six Paths Senjutsu.

He's shown more versatility with them, better is subjective though.


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## ARGUS (Nov 5, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> I'm not even sure what this is in response to.


It’s in response to what would have happen if naruto tries to Land that on Juubito

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Seraph Prime (Nov 5, 2017)

Toneri decimates.


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## vasto lordes (Nov 5, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> BSM naruto


but last bsm>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>war arc bsm


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## Braiyan (Nov 5, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> It’s in response to what would have happen if naruto tries to Land that on Juubito



Lol.

The Last Naruto ran his way through a giant lightsaber composed of TSBs right before he landed that punch on Toneri. Yet Juubito's TSB defense is going to "tank".

And this still doesn't address the actual point, which is that Toneri >>>> Juubito in durability.


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## Daio (Nov 5, 2017)

Toneri atomises.


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## Mar55 (Nov 5, 2017)

vasto lordes said:


> but last bsm>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>war arc bsm


No, clearly they are exactly the same in every relevant way, other than age.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Android (Nov 5, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> No, clearly they are exactly the same in every relevant way, other than age.


I mean, BSM is BSM right ? 
What could have possibly changed ?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 5, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> I mean, BSM is BSM right ?


Exactly. 


Cosmos said:


> What could have possibly changed ?


Other than age and plowing Hinata, clearly nothing.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BlackHeartedImp (Nov 5, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Other than age and plowing Hinata, clearly nothing.


As if plowing Hinata was  an insignificant
achievement 
OT: Toneri wins by way of power creep, but he definitely takes the cake for least impressive defeat.


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## Mar55 (Nov 5, 2017)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> As if plowing Hinata was  an insignificant
> achievement
> OT: Toneri wins by way of power creep, but he definitely takes the cake for least impressive defeat.


Well, being hit with a punch that just nullified a moon splitting beam isn't exactly unimpressive. Especially since he wasn't even seriously hurt, just reverted his eyes somehow.


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## Jikaishin (Nov 5, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Well, being hit with a punch that just nullified a moon splitting beam isn't exactly unimpressive. Especially since he wasn't even seriously hurt, just reverted his eyes somehow.



Honestly; Toneri could have ended this fight whenever he wanted with Kinbo Tensei Baku but couldn't because plot


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## Mar55 (Nov 5, 2017)

Jikaishin said:


> Honestly; Toneri could have ended this fight whenever he wanted with Kinbo Tensei Baku but couldn't because plot


Alternatively, Naruto could've easily blitz and one shot him in SPSM. Never even giving him the chance to fight, plot does go both ways.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Nov 5, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Well, being hit with a punch that just nullified a moon splitting beam isn't exactly unimpressive. Especially since he wasn't even seriously hurt, just reverted his eyes somehow.


Nevermind, I forgot Obito got TnJ'ed


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## Jikaishin (Nov 5, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Alternatively, Naruto could've easily blitz and one shot him in SPSM. Never even giving him the chance to fight, plot does go both ways.



Didn't Naruto was flying and touching TSB? Doesn't that mean he was using SPSM


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## Mar55 (Nov 5, 2017)

Jikaishin said:


> Didn't Naruto was flying and touching TSB?


Yes, he was.


Jikaishin said:


> Doesn't that mean he was using SPSM


No, it doesn't. He was using BSM, which is a step below SPSM.


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## Jikaishin (Nov 5, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Yes, he was.
> 
> No, it doesn't. He was using BSM, which is a step below SPSM.



He can only fly with SPSM, no? so if you agree he was flying, you agree he was using SPSM too


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## Mar55 (Nov 5, 2017)

Jikaishin said:


> He can only fly with SPSM, no?


Clearly not, as he flew in BSM.


Jikaishin said:


> so if you agree he was flying, you agree he was using SPSM too


No, I don't. This is circular logic and BSM being the mode in use in The Last disproves it.


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 5, 2017)

What has Obito done offensively that puts him anywhere close to the level of Toneri?
 Why would people assume and older Naruto who clearly has better Jutsu even in base hasn't gotten any stronger in one of his modes?


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 5, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> TSB are a byproduct of Six Paths Senjutsu, Toneri has Six Paths Senjutsu.
> 
> He's shown more versatility with them, better is subjective though.


TSB are not a byproduct of senjutsu. They are a byproduct of yin-yang release. Just because the six paths sage mode has them doesnt mean they are one of the same. the tenseigan is not senjutsu.


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## Mar55 (Nov 5, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> TSB are not a byproduct of senjutsu. They are a byproduct of yin-yang release. Just because the six paths sage mode has them doesnt mean they are one of the same. the tenseigan is not senjutsu.


Not just Senjutsu, Six Paths Senjutsu, which they are. They aren't a byproduct of Yin-Yang, as they can exist prior to that even being applied to them. As mindless Obito has shown.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 5, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Not just Senjutsu, Six Paths Senjutsu, which they are. They aren't a byproduct of Yin-Yang, as they can exist prior to that even being applied to them. As mindless Obito has shown.


They aren't six paths senjutsu. That's what im trying to tell you. Six paths senjutsu is something that is often seen with the truth seeking orbs but is not a cause/effect relationship. They are yin/yang, as it is a kekkei genkai that all nature transformations derive from. Six path senjutsu is something exclusive to six path sage mode users, like Madara and Naruto


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## Mar55 (Nov 5, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> They aren't six paths senjutsu. That's what im trying to tell you.


But yes, they are. 


Nuttynutdude said:


> Six paths senjutsu is something that is often seen with the truth seeking orbs but is not a cause/effect relationship.


That is baseless.


Nuttynutdude said:


> They are yin/yang, as it is a kekkei genkai that all nature transformations derive from.


Those 2 things aren't related, and we've literally seen TSB without YYR, when mindless Obito used them. So that's wrong anyway.


Nuttynutdude said:


> Six path senjutsu is something exclusive to six path sage mode users, like Madara and Naruto


No, it's not. For starters, Madara doesn't have SPSM, just SPS because of the Jubi. Hamura also had TSB because he also had SPS, yet no SPSM to be found. The trend is telling.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 5, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> But yes, they are.
> 
> That is baseless.
> 
> ...


Six paths sage mode is not the only way to acquire six paths senjutsu chakra. the other is being the jinchuriki of the ten tails. 
And the fact that there is no direct evidence to support my claim, there is none in your favour either. We are both going off of similar amounts of evidence, which are theories based off of what we've seen.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 5, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> What has Obito done offensively that puts him anywhere close to the level of Toneri?
> Why would people assume and older Naruto who clearly has better Jutsu even in base hasn't gotten any stronger in one of his modes?


Well, it's hard to scale these two, Because a weaker Naruto's plan to fight Juubito was to keep going until he got hurt, heal, then do it again. There was no definitive plan to beat Obito, because they couldn't. He blitz one shot all 5 hokage, and tanked the strongest things they had with no effort.

On the other hand, Toneri got his ass handed to him by a far superior Naruto. So it's like comparing 2 guys based off of one stomping a chihuahua and the other getting destroyed by a professional MMA fighter. not much to go off of. 

All of this is speculation, as there is nothing to argue one way or the other. All of this is opinion

Reactions: Informative 1 | Neutral 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 5, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Six paths sage mode is not the only way to acquire six paths senjutsu chakra. the other is being the jinchuriki of the ten tails.


I know, hence why I clarified Madara not having SPSM. But this doesn't apply to Hago, who had them before ever getting Jūbi chakra, and Hamura, who had them despite never being Jūbi jin. Nor does it apply to Kaguya, the very source of these powers. Or Toneri, who also has them, despite neither of those 2 being applicable to him.


Nuttynutdude said:


> And the fact that there is no direct evidence to support my claim, there is none in your favour either. We are both going off of similar amounts of evidence, which are theories based off of what we've seen.


There is though, like them being noted as natural energy. Or that getting SPS awakens them in the first place. Or that they can exist without YYR, meaning that plays no role in their activation or usage. The only thing that all of the users have in common is SPS. Starting from Kaguya all the way down. But, we can just agree to disagree. It doesn't really matter for the purposes of this thread.

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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 5, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> I know, hence why I clarified Madara not having SPSM. But this doesn't apply to Hago, who had them before ever getting Jūbi chakra, and Hamura, who had them despite never being Jūbi jin. Nor does it apply to Kaguya, the very source of these powers. Or Toneri, who also has them, despite neither of those 2 being applicable to him.
> 
> There is though, like them being noted as natural energy. Or that getting SPS awakens them in the first place. Or that they can exist without YYR, meaning that plays no role in their activation or usage. The only thing that all of the users have in common is SPS. Starting from Kaguya all the way down. But, we can just agree to disagree. It doesn't really matter for the purposes of this thread.


agreed lol.


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## Android (Nov 6, 2017)

Jikaishin said:


> Didn't Naruto was flying and touching TSB? Doesn't that mean he was using SPSM





Mar55 said:


> Yes, he was.
> 
> No, it doesn't. He was using BSM, which is a step below SPSM.


The official movie Databook calls the mode used in the movie "Kurama chakra mode + Sage mode".
It was KCSM. As he has the toad markings around his eyes.
SPSM is what was used in Boruto, and Boruto next generation, and Boruto the Anime.


Nuttynutdude said:


> TSB are not a byproduct of senjutsu. They are a byproduct of yin-yang release. Just because the six paths sage mode has them doesnt mean they are one of the same. the tenseigan is not senjutsu.


Read the Databook.
Presence of TSBs = presence of six paths Sage chakra.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 6, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> The official movie Databook calls the mode used in the movie "Kurama chakra mode + Sage mode".
> It was KCSM. As he has the toad markings around his eyes.
> SPSM is what was used in Boruto, and Boruto next generation, and Boruto the Anime.
> 
> ...


That's what I've been trying to tell him, thank you.


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## Android (Nov 6, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> That's what I've been trying to tell him, thank you.


Any time. 
Except when I have no information about the subject.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 6, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Any time.
> Except when I have no information about the subject.


That's cool, I'll cover your back then. Any objections?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Android (Nov 6, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> That's cool, I'll cover your back then. Any objections?


N...n..no sir

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 6, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> That's cool, I'll cover your back then. Any objections?


mm. I'm wrong then.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 6, 2017)

Kinrin Tensei Baku is miles above anything Obito can pull out in terms of firepower and you're going to look like an idiot trying to argue otherwise.

If you want actual concrete numbers on this, the technique was calculated at a bit above Jūbi Madara's Chibaku Tensei in energy output. Exaton-level power, aka moon-level destructive capacity, compared to Obito's continent-scale Bijūdama.

Trying to pretend Bijū Sage Naruto from _The Last_ is the same as Bijū Sage Naruto from the _War Arc_ is an exercise in stupidity and an open invitation for mockery. Don't do it.

Toneri splits him in half and calls it a day.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## omnipotenten20 (Nov 7, 2017)

toneri


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 7, 2017)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Trying to pretend Bijū Sage Naruto from _The Last_ is the same as Bijū Sage Naruto from the _War Arc_ is an exercise in stupidity and an open invitation for mockery. Don't do it.


A problem with this argument right here is that Bijuu sage naruto from the last was miles ahead of Toneri, while Bijuu sage Naruto from the war arc was fodder compared to even Hashirama, who was blitz one shotted by Juubito no diff.

Not a good example to go off of. We have no way to scale these two, because Juubito was fodderizing everyone he fought, and Toneri is fighting people with a huge strength difference than what Juubito fought, be that weaker or stronger. (most of them stronger)


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## TrollbitoUchiha (Nov 8, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Toneri rapes him.
> He's much more faster and has better defense and his firepower albeit inferior, but it's more practical.



Obito has a freaking rinnegan. Toneri gets stabbed through the chest with the tree Neji-style or nuked the heck with TBB while Obito deflects all of Toneri’s attacks with Uchiha gunbai.


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## Ultrafragor (Nov 8, 2017)

Tenseigan is the equivalent of Rinnegan.

So, Toneri has two rikudo level eyes while Obito only has one.


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## Android (Nov 8, 2017)

TrollbitoUchiha said:


> Obito has a freaking rinnegan. Toneri gets stabbed through the chest with the tree Neji-style or nuked the heck with TBB while Obito deflects all of Toneri’s attacks with Uchiha gunbai.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 8, 2017)

Ultrafragor said:


> Tenseigan is the equivalent of Rinnegan.
> 
> So, Toneri has two rikudo level eyes while Obito only has one.


Yes, but Obito also has a ten tails.

Also, Toneri's tenseigan would be stronger due to his otsutsuki lineage, but weaker than, say, Hamura's. The byakugan seems to decrease in strength the farther it gets from Kaguya, as seen when Hamura was not able to match Kaguya, but was able to hold his own, byakugan to byakugan.

If you were to jam tenseigan eyes into someone and rinnegan eyes into a clone of said person, yes. It would be the same. but normal people cannot get tenseigan. only that clan can. and that clan is overpowered anyway so it makes it seem like the tenseigan is stronger than it actually is.


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## Android (Nov 8, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Hashirama, who was blitz one shotted by Juubito no diff.


That was Hashirama's Moku Bunshin. Not the real one


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## Ultrafragor (Nov 8, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Yes, but Obito also has a ten tails.
> 
> Also, Toneri's tenseigan would be stronger due to his otsutsuki lineage, but weaker than, say, Hamura's. The byakugan seems to decrease in strength the farther it gets from Kaguya, as seen when Hamura was not able to match Kaguya, but was able to hold his own, byakugan to byakugan.
> 
> If you were to jam tenseigan eyes into someone and rinnegan eyes into a clone of said person, yes. It would be the same. but normal people cannot get tenseigan. only that clan can. and that clan is overpowered anyway so it makes it seem like the tenseigan is stronger than it actually is.



Well then isn't the rinnegan also made to look stronger than it is because the Uchiha are the ones using it?


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 8, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Bijuu sage Naruto from the war arc was fodder compared to even Hashirama, who was blitz one shotted by Juubito no diff.



0 people in the manga think BSM Naruto is a fodder to Hashirama. 

Naruto is repeatedly compared to him, with Tobirama even thinking Naruto will likely become a better hokage than Hashi. 

In addition to this, Hashirama says he is way out classed by JJ Obito, but Naruto is able to sustain battle against him for a rather long amount of time without dying.
They are not very far apart.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 9, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 0 people in the manga think BSM Naruto is a fodder to Hashirama.
> 
> Naruto is repeatedly compared to him, with Tobirama even thinking Naruto will likely become a better hokage than Hashi.
> 
> ...


If we powerscale Naruto, I can tell you right now he is not as strong as a higher tailed beast in base, and KCM is not a multiplier. Hashirama was able to take control of all the tailed beasts with brute force alone. So sage Naruto to make up for the lack of strength has to bear minimum make up half a Kyuubi's worth of strength. And this is not to match, but to make it into Hashirama's league. Keep in mind this man pulled the Susano'o off of the Kyuubi then no diffed the beast.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Android (Nov 9, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> If we powerscale Naruto, I can tell you right now he is not as strong as a higher tailed beast in base, and KCM is not a multiplier. Hashirama was able to take control of all the tailed beasts with brute force alone. So sage Naruto to make up for the lack of strength has to bear minimum make up half a Kyuubi's worth of strength.


Please stop. This logic is terrible.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 9, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> If we powerscale Naruto, I can tell you right now he is not as strong as a higher tailed beast in base, and KCM is not a multiplier. Hashirama was able to take control of all the tailed beasts with brute force alone. So sage Naruto to make up for the lack of strength has to bear minimum make up half a Kyuubi's worth of strength. And this is not to match, but to make it into Hashirama's league. Keep in mind this man pulled the Susano'o off of the Kyuubi then no diffed the beast.


So your argument is basically that Hashirama having a tailed beast specific ability = brute force?
That is like saying 14 year old Obito brute force beat down Kurama.

Do you know who was actually brute force beating down the tailed beast, and tossing them like children with just a roar?
Naruto the first time he used BM.

Even FKS SM Naruto bodyslamed Kurama's big ass and gave him a Rasenshruiken bonus after he got some help at the opening, and has attacks that can damage the tailed beasts.

That's combined with all the things you heard from Tobirama and everybody during the war about him, and the fact that he was able to fight a Jubii Jinchuriki the whole time the alliance were having their crisis of cowardice nonsense eventually learning to track and land hits on one who is actually fighting back.
A thing even Hashirama himself did not think would go well for him in Obito's blank state.

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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 9, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> So your argument is basically that Hashirama having a tailed beast specific ability = brute force?
> That is like saying 14 year old Obito brute force beat down Kurama.


1. He has the ability to suppress the chakra, not have them under his control. 
2. The sharingan can put the tailed beast under control with genjutsu. 

And while yes, Naruto did fight Obito, was there any reason to suggest he would do anything at all against him? the only reason they were able to not die against Obito was the problem containing the Juubi


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 9, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Please stop. This logic is terrible.


And your best argument that is relevant to this topic has been "toneri stomps because Naruto was stronger"


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 9, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> 1. He has the ability to suppress the chakra, not have them under his control.
> 2. The sharingan can put the tailed beast under control with genjutsu.


Exactly. Neither of those things is


Nuttynutdude said:


> Hashirama was able to take control of all the tailed beasts with brute force alone.


What you said here.  Which isn't stated anywhere.


Nuttynutdude said:


> And while yes, Naruto did fight Obito, was there any reason to suggest he would do anything at all against him?


No one said he was was going to beat Obito, but being able to sight, attack and a take blows from an aware version of a dude that Hashirama is in inferior to means that he clearly is nowhere close to a "fodder" to Hashirama.

Look at chapter 650 "I Will Sleep" and see what happens when he starts getting used to the power.



Nuttynutdude said:


> the only reason they were able to not die against Obito was the problem containing the Juubi


 What are you talking about?


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## TrollbitoUchiha (Nov 11, 2017)

Cosmos said:


>



Why are you laughing?

He practically would have unlimited chakra he could absorb all of Toneri’s techniques and you know how much hype Kishi gave Uchiha.


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## Android (Nov 11, 2017)

TrollbitoUchiha said:


> Why are you laughing?
> 
> He practically would have unlimited chakra he could absorb all of Toneri’s techniques and you know how much hype Kishi gave Uchiha.


Just like he was absorbing Naruto and Sasuke's tech..  Oh wait !
Toneri's chakra absorption feats dumps anything Obito ever shown in this department. Pure and simple.


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## TrollbitoUchiha (Nov 11, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Just like he was absorbing Naruto and Sasuke's tech..  Oh wait !
> Toneri's chakra absorption feats dumps anything Obito ever shown in this department. Pure and simple.



Except Obito has better control over TSB, has rinnegan hax, virtually unlimited chakra here, the gunbai, and the tree powers. Toneri ain’t winning here.

Virtually all of Konoha took on Obito and still struggled.


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## Mar55 (Nov 11, 2017)

TrollbitoUchiha said:


> Except Obito has better control over TSB,


What's the basis for this? People keep saying it, but how exactly?


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## TrollbitoUchiha (Nov 12, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> What's the basis for this? People keep saying it, but how exactly?



Has anyone ever paid attention to when Obito used TSB?

He was pretty darn skilled with it. He was better at it than Mads was. He countered Naruto’s TSB skills and everyone seems to forget what the rinnegan and gunbai can do.

Obito has blocked TBB with gunbai and the weapon has feats of blocking melee attacks. Obito could theoretically use a massive TBB to just nuke Toneri.

Did Toneri take most of Konoha’s best and brightest and a team of edo tenseis  to just have a chance to win against him?

Nope.


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## Mar55 (Nov 12, 2017)

TrollbitoUchiha said:


> Has anyone ever paid attention to when Obito used TSB?
> 
> He was pretty darn skilled with it. He was better at it than Mads was.


Okay, but this isn't actually telling me anything. So, what is the basis for that?


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## Braiyan (Nov 12, 2017)

TrollbitoUchiha said:


> Except Obito has better control over TSB



Prove it.



TrollbitoUchiha said:


> has rinnegan hax



Which he didn't use for the entirety of his time as a Juubi Jin, and even admitted having simply one Rinnegan was almost too much to control.



TrollbitoUchiha said:


> the gunbai



Which isn't standard equipment for Juubito.


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## Android (Nov 12, 2017)

TrollbitoUchiha said:


> Except Obito has better control over TSB, has rinnegan hax, virtually unlimited chakra here, the gunbai, and the tree powers. Toneri ain’t winning here.
> 
> Virtually all of Konoha took on Obito and still struggled.


- Based on nothing.
- Lol, a Rinnegan he doesn't even use.
- Unlimited chakra didn't save him from getting his ass kicked in the Manga.
- The squad that defeated Obito would get crushed by TL Naruto.
- Won't even bother with the Gunbai thing.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Boruto (Nov 12, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> The official movie Databook calls the mode used in the movie "Kurama chakra mode + Sage mode".
> It was KCSM. As he has the toad markings around his eyes.
> SPSM is what was used in Boruto, and Boruto next generation, and Boruto the Anime.


Exactly. Annoying how people use this to downplay Toneri, though. The likely reason Naruto used BSM was because the design and specifics of Naruto and Sasuke's final power ups were not yet defined (the movie was in production way before the manga ended, if I recall correctly...Sasuke didn't have the Rinnegan in one scene either). There was probably no intent to have Naruto not give it his all in that fight, it would make zero sense with what was at stake. So Naruto not using RSM doesn't lower my opinion of Toneri much.

Even disregarding that, Toneri beats Juubito anyway feat-wise.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 12, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> - Based on nothing.
> - Lol, a Rinnegan he doesn't even use.
> - Unlimited chakra didn't save him from getting his ass kicked in the Manga.
> - The squad that defeated Obito would get crushed by TL Naruto.
> - Won't even bother with the Gunbai thing.


1. a rinnegan he is fully capable of using
2. because he didn't have complete control of the Juubi yet
3. but Toneri also had his ass handed to him by Naruto, so you point is null
4. sure. All of Obito's Jutsu is senjutsu due to the ten tails, what exactly is Toneri gonna do to get past that? use more balls? stalemate and Obito has more chakra to spend.



Mar55 said:


> Okay, but this isn't actually telling me anything. So, what is the basis for that?


There is nothing flat out stating one way or the other, but Obito seemed to have more finesse with he balls as shown when he manipulated them throughout the fight. He was able to make swords, shields, weird liquid-thingies(idk). Whether others can do the same thing, we don't know. All we know is that Obito seemed to have great skill with manipulating them, arguably better than we see Toneri doing.


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## Mar55 (Nov 13, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> There is nothing flat out stating one way or the other, but Obito seemed to have more finesse with he balls as shown when he manipulated them throughout the fight. He was able to make swords, shields, weird liquid-thingies(idk). Whether others can do the same thing, we don't know. All we know is that Obito seemed to have great skill with manipulating them, arguably better than we see Toneri doing.


We also see Toneri make shields, completely transform them into other objects, use ninjutsu through them, and just spam them outright. He seems to be just as skilled, if not more so.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 13, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> We also see Toneri make shields, completely transform them into other objects, use ninjutsu through them, and just spam them outright. He seems to be just as skilled, if not more so.


He is definitely skilled, but we saw Obito use a lot more than what you just said. He was making full scale weapons that mirrored his soul with the orbs. Obito is more skilled, but arguably not by an extreme amount. certainly not to decide the course of this fight.

I still think this fight is too close to call since we don't have evidence for or against either. The Naruto that stomped Toneri would stomp anything Obito fought, and the guys that Obito fought would get stomped by Toneri. We don't really know how strong that Naruto is compared to Juubito, though he is most likely stronger, and all we know is that given their positions were swapped toneri would win and Juubito would probably lose. So let's just say Naruto is the winner here.


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## Braiyan (Nov 13, 2017)

Toneri cut the moon in half with his truthseekers. He is both more skilled and more powerful with them.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 13, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> He is definitely skilled, but we saw Obito use a lot more than what you just said. He was making full scale weapons that mirrored his soul with the orbs. Obito is more skilled, but arguably not by an extreme amount. certainly not to decide the course of this fight.


I'm not seeing how that sword is a plus, it made him lose his fight, and Toneri's sword is >>> Obito's. When discounting that featless weapon, Toneri has done better with outright manipulation of them, than him, Naruto and Madara. In fact, only Kaguya's use would surpass his, for the pure raw AOE and power behind it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Nov 13, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> I'm not seeing how that sword is a plus, it made him lose his fight, and Toneri's sword is >>> Obito's. When discounting that featless weapon, Toneri has done better with outright manipulation of them, than him, Naruto and Madara. In fact, only Kaguya's use would surpass his, for the pure raw AOE and power behind it.


Not to mention the durability. Obito's shield got busted by 9 COR whilst Toneri's tanked about 24 COR from adult Naruto with no damage.
Also, Toneri has shown the ability to infuse his truth seekers with his his Tenseigan chakra ( which is why they turn green).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 13, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Not to mention the durability. Obito's shield got busted by 9 COR whilst Toneri's tanked about 24 COR from adult Naruto with no damage.
> Also, Toneri has shown the ability to infuse his truth seekers with his his Tenseigan chakra ( which is why they turn green).


As hated as he is, I'd say Toneri is obviously stronger than he's ever really given credit for. For some reason, people see him as the weakest god tier, but his actual feats disagree. It's just he had the bad luck of fighting KCSM, instead of SPSM. Though, that logic is faulty, when those are some of Naruto's best raw feats in terms of power and durability.


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## Android (Nov 13, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> As hated as he is, I'd say Toneri is obviously stinger than he's ever really given credit for. For some reason, people see him as the weakest god tier, but he actual feats disagree. It's just he had the bad luck of fighting KCSM, instead of SPSM. Though, that logic is faulty, when those are some of Naruto's best raw feats in terms of power and durability.


I don't think the mode Naruto used was important. The movie's production started in late 2012 iirc. Way before RSM was introduced in the Manga. Which explains why certain Naruto&Hinata moments from the war arc were missing in the movie. And Sasuke's lack of Rinnegan. Naruto was meant to fight Toneri using his full power, regardless of the chakra mode he was using.

Also, from what I call Toneri could control his truth seekers from a long distance, something JJ Madara couldn't do.
Naruto did something similar when he infused his truth seekers with TBB and wind element to destroy Madara's CT. Despite the meteors being far above in the atmosphere, the truth seekers returned to him in the next chapter.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 13, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> I don't think the mode Naruto used was important. The movie's production started in late 2012 iirc. Way before RSM was introduced in the Manga. Which explains why certain Naruto&Hinata moments from the war arc were missing in the movie. And Sasuke's lack of Rinnegan. Naruto was meant to fight Toneri using his full power, regardless of the chakra mode he was using.


This is a fair point, but even without it, it should stand on the fact of feats being awesome anyway. 


Cosmos said:


> Also, from what I call Toneri could control his truth seekers from a long distance, something JJ Madara couldn't do.
> Naruto did something similar when he infused his truth seekers with TBB and wind element to destroy Madara's CT. Despite the meteors being far above in the atmosphere, the truth seekers returned to him in the next chapter.


It's weird, only Madara seemed to have that limitation. Obito didn't, when he was shooting them around the battlefield mindlessly, or when turned them into chakra receivers for his barrier.


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## Android (Nov 13, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> It's weird, only Madara seemed to have that limitation. Obito didn't, when he was shooting them around the battlefield mindlessly, or when turned them into chakra receivers for his


When did Obito shoot his TSBs around the battlefield ?
Also he used the outer path black receivers for his MosekeiYojin barrier, he didn't use the truth seekers.


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## Mar55 (Nov 13, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> When did Obito shoot his TSBs around the battlefield ?


When bloated and mindless? 


Cosmos said:


> Also he used the outer path black receivers for his MosekeiYojin barrier, he didn't use the truth seekers.


No, he didn't. He turned one of his TSB into chakra receivers.


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## Android (Nov 13, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> When bloated and mindless?


Scan ?


Mar55 said:


> No, he didn't. He turned one of his TSB into chakra receivers.


No dude. He shot the outer path black receivers from his palms. Don't let the position of the truth seekers above his hand fools you. He retained the same number of truth seekers after erecting the barrier.


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## Mar55 (Nov 13, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> No dude. He shot the outer path black receivers from his palms. Don't let the position of the truth seekers above his hand fools you. He retained the same number of truth seekers after erecting the barrier.


Legit, when he did, his TSB had the same red chakra and disappeared.


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## Android (Nov 13, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Legit, when he did, his TSB had the same red chakra and disappeared.


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## Mar55 (Nov 13, 2017)

Check that trivia, you'll see why I said that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Nov 13, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Check that trivia, you'll why I said that.


Do you still think he used the truth seekers ?


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## Mar55 (Nov 13, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Do you still think he used the truth seekers ?


Kinda, yeah.


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## Android (Nov 13, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Kinda, yeah.


How about we say he used both ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 13, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> How about we say he used both ?


That works. Nice doing business with you. My people have already contacted your people.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Boruto (Nov 13, 2017)

I definitely recall Obito firing TSBs over a way greater distance than Madara's limit. It's obvious when you compare the distance to Gamakichi's size in one of the chapters he's in.

Kishi just didn't think of the limitation back then, I guess.


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## Mar55 (Nov 13, 2017)

skullguy said:


> I definitely recall Obito firing TSBs over a way greater distance than Madara's limit. It's obvious when you compare the distance to Gamakichi's size in one of the chapters he's in.
> 
> Kishi just didn't think of the limitation back then, I guess.


He didn't even stick to it, even after that, as with Naruto.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Nov 13, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> That works. Nice doing business with you. My people have already contacted your people.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Android (Nov 13, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> He didn't even stick to it, even after that, as with Naruto.





skullguy said:


> I definitely recall Obito firing TSBs over a way greater distance than Madara's limit. It's obvious when you compare the distance to Gamakichi's size in one of the chapters he's in.
> 
> Kishi just didn't think of the limitation back then, I guess.


Pls guys, I need to see a scan of Obito shooting his TSBs for a long distance.


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## Mar55 (Nov 13, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Pls guys, I need to see a scan of Obito shooting his TSBs for a long distance.


It's like the hardest thing in the world posting scans on this site.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Nov 13, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> It's like the hardest thing in the world posting scans on this site.


OK, just add s to the http.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 13, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Not to mention the durability. Obito's shield got busted by 9 COR whilst Toneri's tanked about 24 COR from adult Naruto with no damage.
> Also, Toneri has shown the ability to infuse his truth seekers with his his Tenseigan chakra ( which is why they turn green).


when was Obito's shield busted...?



Cosmos said:


> I don't think the mode Naruto used was important.


Well, that Naruto would have stomped both of these guys, so i guess it doesn't matter too much, but KCM with sage mode is a hell of a lot weaker than spsm


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## Mar55 (Nov 14, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> but KCM with sage mode is a hell of a lot weaker than spsm


True, it would be. But these are some of Naruto's best feats, regardless of mode.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 14, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> True, it would be. But these are some of Naruto's best feats, regardless of mode.


Well, we don't know that. For all we know Toneri is weaker than VOTE2 Naruto. Again, since we didn't see anyone go all out bar Toneri himself, we have no way to scale him to war arc god tiers. Naruto would low diff most of them just like he did Toneri, just as Juubidara/Kaguya would be stronger than that Naruto/ Toneri


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## Mar55 (Nov 14, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Well, we don't know that. For all we know Toneri is weaker than VOTE2 Naruto. Again, since we didn't see anyone go all out bar Toneri himself, we have no way to scale him to war arc god tiers. Naruto would low diff most of them just like he did Toneri, just as Juubidara/Kaguya would be stronger than that Naruto/ Toneri


I don't understand, Toneri going all out is why Naruto has some of the best feats he has, meaning Toneri has to be massively powerful himself.

We can easily scale him based on the Tenseigan's hype and his feats. It wouldn't matter if he's weaker than War Arc Naruto, so is Obito.  It wouldn't matter if Madara or Kaguya would beat, they would heat Obito too. What does matter is Toneri performance, based on that he'll also beat Obito.


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## Trojan (Nov 15, 2017)

Toneri's feats far exceed that of both Obito AND JJ Asspulldara. I don't see how the fact that he is superior to either one of them is even debatable tbh...

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Disagree 1


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## Arles Celes (Nov 15, 2017)

Maybe Toneri since he fought a quite stronger Naruto. Older Naruto with RS boost and 100% Kurama is most likely above both War arc BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke.

The only doubt perhaps would be the potential power of the Nunoboko sword if Obito had no doubts whatsoever.


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## Mar55 (Nov 15, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Toneri's feats far exceed that of both Obito AND JJ Asspulldara. I don't see how the fact that he is superior to either one of them is even debatable tbh...


Honestly, I agree.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 15, 2017)

Arles Celes said:


> Maybe Toneri since he fought a quite stronger Naruto. Older Naruto with RS boost and 100% Kurama is most likely above both War arc BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke.
> 
> The only doubt perhaps would be the potential power of the Nunoboko sword if Obito had no doubts whatsoever.


Well, this is what i'm trying to say. That Naruto would also beat Obito. Otherwise we could say Zabuza is stronger than Minato because he fought a much stronger Kakashi... Yeah, so? That means nothing. Minato still destroyed Kakashi. Just as Juubito destroyed war arc Naruto. Literally the only reason they could do anything was he wasn't in complete control of the Juubi yet. 

You can't scale these two off of Naruto, because one is far stronger than the weaker Naruto he fought, and the other is weaker than the stronger Naruto he fought.


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## Mar55 (Nov 15, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Well, this is what i'm trying to say. That Naruto would also beat Obito. Otherwise we could say Zabuza is stronger than Minato because he fought a much stronger Kakashi... Yeah, so? That means nothing. Minato still destroyed Kakashi. Just as Juubito destroyed war arc Naruto. Literally the only reason they could do anything was he wasn't in complete control of the Juubi yet.
> 
> You can't scale these two off of Naruto, because one is far stronger than the weaker Naruto he fought, and the other is weaker than the stronger Naruto he fought.


You don't have to scale them, their feats are enough to determine who's stronger. Comparing them would tell you Toneri's superior to Obito, depite both losing to Naruto.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 15, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> You don't have to scale them, their feats are enough to determine who's stronger. Comparing them would tell you Toneri's superior to Obito, depite both losing to Naruto.


You cannot use that alone. Obito had no reason to use an attack using his full power. If he did, i would agree with you. We never saw Juubito go all out. For all we know, that was his all out, or he could be 2x stronger.


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## Mar55 (Nov 16, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> You cannot use that alone. Obito had no reason to use an attack using his full power. If he did, i would agree with you. We never saw Juubito go all out. For all we know, that was his all out, or he could be 2x stronger.


You're pointlessly speculating, would they do is what we go by.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 16, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> You're pointlessly speculating, would they do is what we go by.


Yes. all of this is speculation. Where did you see, oh. Obito's max was this. And Toneri's max was this. That means Toneri is stronger. 1. we never saw Juubito go all out 2. we have nothign to scale them by because Juubito stomped war arc Naruto and The Last Naruto stomped Toneri. All we know is that they are both in between the gap between the two Naruto's. Y'know who else is? MS Obito, Madara, Hashirama, KCM Minato, Nagato, Rikudo Sasuke, Adult Sauske, Kinshiki, unfused Momoshiki, Rinnegan Madara, the full Kyuubi, and every otsutsuki bar Kaguya/Hagaromo/Hamura.


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## Mar55 (Nov 17, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Yes. all of this is speculation. Where did you see, oh. Obito's max was this. And Toneri's max was this. That means Toneri is stronger. 1. we never saw Juubito go all out 2. we have nothign to scale them by because Juubito stomped war arc Naruto and The Last Naruto stomped Toneri. All we know is that they are both in between the gap between the two Naruto's. Y'know who else is? MS Obito, Madara, Hashirama, KCM Minato, Nagato, Rikudo Sasuke, Adult Sauske, Kinshiki, unfused Momoshiki, Rinnegan Madara, the full Kyuubi, and every otsutsuki bar Kaguya/Hagaromo/Hamura.


You don't seem to be able to grasp that max or not, we go by what they've demonstrated. That's the entire point of these forums and comparing feats in the first place. Deciding we haven't seen their max, and that we can't tell who's stronger because of it, is illogical. Based on the best they've done, in just outright feats, Toneri > Obito in every facet.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 17, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> You don't seem to be able to grasp that max or not, we go by what they've demonstrated. That's the entire point of these forums and comparing feats in the first place. Deciding we haven't seen their max, and that we can't tell who's stronger because of it, is illogical. Based on the best they've done, in just outright feats, Toneri > Obito in every facet.


But it's illogical to say that since we saw person B sprint and person C jog, and person B went faster, that person B is faster than person C


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## Mar55 (Nov 17, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> But it's illogical to say that since we saw person B sprint and person C jog, and person B went faster, that person B is faster than person C


I like you and you get the point, so I'll leave it alone.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 17, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> I like you and you get the point, so I'll leave it alone.


mm. I'm just done here tho. My final statement: Obito is X strength and Toneri is Y strength. We know that X=A and Y=B so what we know is that Sakura's last name is Haruno. good day.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Nov 22, 2017)

Juubito takes this, just cuz toneri tanked rasengan and juubito had to heal from it doesn't mean he is automatically stronger, someone like the third raikage can tank rasengan but that doesn't make him stronger than juubito, juubito regenerated half his body been vapourised by goudodama. 


Juubito IMO can tank naruto's punch that oneshotted toneri, nothing short of night moth is coming close to taking out juubito taijutsu wise in naruto, and the only reason his tab broke from 9 COR was because of PIS he was doubting himself (afterall hhe tanked a Senjutsu enhanced bijuu dama and susano arrow which are >>>> 9 COR).

And i doubt both characters can energy absorb the other because as we've seen energy absorbtion techs can be nullified by other energy absorbtion techs (see hashi vs madara).

This will be a mid diff for juubito thanks to toneri having a shitty durability (getting oneshotted by a punch)

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 22, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Juubito IMO can tank naruto's punch that oneshotted toneri, nothing short of night moth is coming close to taking out juubito taijutsu wise in naruto, and the only reason his tab broke from 9 COR was because of PIS he was doubting himself (afterall hhe tanked a Senjutsu enhanced bijuu dama and susano arrow which are >>>> 9 COR).


 COR is said to carve away a mountain like tailed beast ball in the third data book, Sha no Sho, and here


9 Biju chakra and senjutsu enhanced ones would clearly do way not damage than a tailed beast ball.

Also Susano'o arrows are comparable to TBB now?


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## uchihakil (Nov 22, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> COR is said to carve away a mountain like tailed beast ball in the third data book, Sha no Sho, and here
> 
> 
> 9 Biju chakra and senjutsu enhanced ones would clearly do way not damage than a tailed beast ball.
> ...




Susano arrows is not an AOE attack rather a high piercing attack, and it couldn't pierce through, and you should also go see what a bijuu dama did against the bijuus, another feat of juubito that further proves he could tank the 9 COR's is he tanked a kyuubi sized COR by both minato and naruto, that equates him tanking a full kurama COR (btw toneri fought kcm naruto who had kurama fighting the statue and naruto oneshotted him whilst not at full power nor even close to being at full power, naruto will need kurama to beat juubito).


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## Kyu (Nov 22, 2017)

"Toneri lost to BSM Nardo who didn't even have Kurama, Jewbito fought off two BSM Nardo & BM Minato! Toneri loses lol"

>Intentionally neglecting to bring up these crucial facts:


Naruto from _The Last_ has Six Paths chakra running through his veins, regardless if he's in a chakra mode or not
Had two years to train & hone abilities he had no time to improve in the middle of a war
+

Neither 50% BSM nor BM's Avatar have the feats to suggest it can tank Kinrin Tensei Baku, meanwhile 19 y/o Kuramaless BSM Nardo tanked it on two separate occasions.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kyu (Nov 22, 2017)

No matter how the bullshit is spun, Juubito fought _and lost_ to inferior opposition. At least Toneri got beat by someone with stats comparable to several God Tiers.

Who the fuck did Juubito lose to again? Precisely.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 22, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Susano arrows is not an AOE attack rather a high piercing attack, and it couldn't pierce through, and you should also go see what a bijuu dama did against the bijuus, another feat of juubito that further proves he could tank the 9 COR's is he tanked a kyuubi sized COR by both minato and naruto, that equates him tanking a full kurama COR (btw toneri fought kcm naruto who had kurama fighting the statue and naruto oneshotted him whilst not at full power nor even close to being at full power, naruto will need kurama to beat juubito).


1) Susano'o arrows have never been shown to be on the same level as TBB piercing or not.
Bullets are not > missiles because they pierce.

2) when did a Bijuu Dama hit a tailed beast? And how is it related to Obito?

3) Toneri fought Rikudo Chakra BSM Naruto with more training and Moon Level tanking feats, he also has a bunch of other tailed beast chakra to keep him nice and juiced. 
Obito fought Fresh Out The Oven BSM Naruto two years younger.


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## Braiyan (Nov 22, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Juubito IMO can tank naruto's punch that oneshotted toneri



Based on absolutely nothing.


Look, even if we were to pretend that Toneri is some sort of glass cannon and Juubito is a tanking beast (he's not), there is still no actual way for Juubito to win.

Speed? Toneri was keeping up with BSM Naruto.
Truthseekers? Toneri is better and stronger with them.
Quad Juubidamas? If Juubito can block his own technique with truthseekers what do you think Toneri (who also has truthseekers btw) is gonna do?
Shinju? Toneri blasts that into pieces the same way he blasted his way through the moon.
DNA Sword? Never cut the moon in half, or showed anywhere near having that much destructive power.

Toneri simply has Juubito beat in every category.


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## Mar55 (Nov 22, 2017)

>Toneri survived it
>clearly Jūbito can too
Well, no. That punch is the same one that overpowered Toneri's moon splitter. It's a great durability feat, one that Obito is nowhere near being able to replicate.


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## uchihakil (Nov 22, 2017)

The reason juubito is surviving naruto's punch is the fact that naruto survived EE (which both share juubi regeneration, and EE > naruto's punch) nothing short of night moth is killing juubito interms of taijutsu, even then its an assumption cuz madara said he almost died, dude regenerated half his body after been vapourised, toneri doesn't and can't regenerate.


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## uchihakil (Nov 22, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) Susano'o arrows have never been shown to be on the same level as TBB piercing or not.
> Bullets are not > missiles because they pierce.
> 
> 2) when did a Bijuu Dama hit a tailed beast? And how is it related to Obito?
> ...




1. Sasuke's attack is a piercing attack not an exploding attack, so you can't compare the two attacks, its like the 3rds hell stab vs bijuu dama, the hell stab could pierce the 3rds armour when 8 tails bijuu dama couldn't.

2. We have seen it stalemated the combined power of the tailed beasts, that goes to show you how strong BM naruto's bijuudama is

3. Yes toneri fought a stronger character, but did no damage or had anything to offer against naruto, meanwhile juubito fought 100% kurama (albeit divided + teleportation) and EMS sasuke and was winning before PIS kicked in, another thing is toneri fought naruto without full kurama, he was only using a portion of his kyuubi chakra against toneri.


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## Mar55 (Nov 22, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> EE > naruto's punch


This makes no sense, Naruto's punch has a better feat than anything EE ever did, so that's backwards.


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 22, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> 1. Sasuke's attack is a piercing attack not an exploding attack, so you can't compare the two attacks, its like the 3rds hell stab vs bijuu dama, the hell stab could pierce the 3rds armour when 8 tails bijuu dama couldn't.


He never took a Bijuu Dama in cannon they both just fell on their faces, and it still wouldn't make the arrows on the same level.
 Both of us trying our best does not make out best efforts have equal results or quality.


uchihakil said:


> 2. We have seen it stalemated the combined power of the tailed beasts, that goes to show you how strong BM naruto's bijuudama is


And yet a Cho Odama Rasengan ( stated to be similar in power which isn't odd considering how the jutsu is made ) filled with Kurama's chakra and Naruto's and Senjutsu × 9 and pushed by others should be weaker?


uchihakil said:


> Yes toneri fought a stronger character, but did no damage or had anything to offer against naruto, meanwhile juubito fought 100% kurama (albeit divided + teleportation) and EMS sasuke and was winning before PIS kicked in, another thing is toneri fought naruto without full kurama, he was only using a portion of his


He pushed a much weaker Naruto harder, yes. No one disputes that.


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## uchihakil (Nov 22, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> This makes no sense, Naruto's punch has a better feat than anything EE ever did, so that's backwards.



Dude what???? EE's shockwave created a hole 100's of meters beneath the Earth crust (thats just the shockwave not the direct punch), whilst naruto's punch created a great shockwave not as impressive due to the fact that it was a connected punch, and also a direct hit from EE shoved madara through his TSB (keep in mind the tsb didn't receive direct damage, madara did, and the force of it sent madara through his tsb which where strong enough to tank quad juubidama. 

EE > naruto's punch


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## uchihakil (Nov 22, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> He never took a Bijuu Dama in cannon they both just fell on their faces, and it still wouldn't make the arrows on the same level.
> Both of us trying our best does not make out best efforts have equal results or quality.
> 
> And yet a Cho Odama Rasengan ( stated to be similar in power which isn't odd considering how the jutsu is made ) filled with Kurama's chakra and Naruto's and Senjutsu × 9 and pushed by others should be weaker?
> He pushed a much weaker Naruto harder, yes. No one disputes that.




1. Yea as a matter of fact the 8 tails did use a bijuudama, the 3rd pushed hachibi to exhaustion, the only technique capable of eating away bijuus reserves are the tbb, and also why the hell will hachibi not use a tbb on his enemy?? And again hachibi himself seem to think his tbb might've been what gave the raikage his scar. All these indicate that tbb was fired.

2. Carving a hole in a mountain doesn't make it equal to a bijuudama, hell its even weaker than RS which is inferior to bijuu dama, BTW the weaker bijuus can individually bust mountains with BD, and busting a mountain >>> carving a mountain, naruto stalemated a combined attack of the 5, which goes to show you how inferior a COR is to a BD. 

Again, juubito also tanked a 100% kurama + senjutsu COR (a kurama sized COR)


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## Braiyan (Nov 22, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> and also a direct hit from EE shoved madara through his TSB (keep in mind the tsb didn't receive direct damage, madara did, and the force of it sent madara through his tsb which where strong enough to tank quad juubidama.



BSM Naruto's Rasengan hit Toneri point blank with so much force it broke him out of his own TSB. But he shrugged it off.
Whereas Naruto's punch hit him so hard he got knocked out of his chakra mode.

Naruto's punch is stronger.


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## uchihakil (Nov 22, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> BSM Naruto's Rasengan hit Toneri point blank with so much force it broke him out of his own TSB. But he shrugged it off.
> Whereas Naruto's punch hit him so hard he got knocked out of his chakra mode.
> 
> Naruto's punch is stronger.



Dude the tsb was already wrecked by COR, unless yall now think regular senjutsu amped rasengan > tsb shield


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## Braiyan (Nov 22, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Dude the tsb was already wrecked by COR, unless yall now think regular senjutsu amped rasengan > tsb shield



No it was not. Naruto's clones attacked with Rasengans, Toneri blocked with TSBs, then the real Naruto dug underneath the shield and hit him point blank with a Rasengan that blasted him out of his own shield. Saying that Toneri's truthseekers were already wrecked by Rasengan would be like saying Madara's truthseekers were wrecked by all the EEs that he blocked.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 22, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> COR is said to carve away a mountain like tailed beast ball in the third data book, Sha no Sho, and here
> 
> 
> 9 Biju chakra and senjutsu enhanced ones would clearly do way not damage than a tailed beast ball.
> ...


Six paths Sasuke's, probably. EMS, maaybbee, at a bit of a wank, at lower tailed beast level.


uchihakil said:


> Juubito takes this, just cuz toneri tanked rasengan and juubito had to heal from it doesn't mean he is automatically stronger, someone like the third raikage can tank rasengan but that doesn't make him stronger than juubito, juubito regenerated half his body been vapourised by goudodama.
> 
> 
> Juubito IMO can tank naruto's punch that oneshotted toneri, nothing short of night moth is coming close to taking out juubito taijutsu wise in naruto, and the only reason his tab broke from 9 COR was because of PIS he was doubting himself (afterall hhe tanked a Senjutsu enhanced bijuu dama and susano arrow which are >>>> 9 COR).
> ...


I would personally favour Obito, but do not ignore the gap in strength of Toneri's opponent and Obito's. It is literally tiers difference. 2 High tiers(below top tier) to a top god tier


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## uchihakil (Nov 22, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> No it was not. Naruto's clones attacked with Rasengans, Toneri blocked with TSBs, then the real Naruto dug underneath the shield and hit him point blank with a Rasengan that blasted him out of his own shield. Saying that Toneri's truthseekers were already wrecked by Rasengan would be like saying Madara's truthseekers were wrecked by all the EEs that he blocked.




Just rewatched the scene, and yes it did show the tsb's getting wrecked after getting hit by the 12 COR, then the real naruto coming from underneath and pushing toneri back through the remaining tsb with his rasengan (that didn't even explode). 

You can't tell me that the COR didn't break tsb yet rasengan did, you can only choose one, which is the logical rasengan to go through it? its the COR's, no two ways bout it.


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## uchihakil (Nov 23, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Six paths Sasuke's, probably. EMS, maaybbee, at a bit of a wank, at lower tailed beast level.
> 
> I would personally favour Obito, but do not ignore the gap in strength of Toneri's opponent and Obito's. It is literally tiers difference. 2 High tiers(below top tier) to a top god tier



Yea but naruto didn't fight at full power and still trashed toneri low diff (meanwhile toneri fought 100% kurama albeit weaker and divided but was doing good), i highly doubt the last naruto can beat juubito without using the remaining chakra of kurama like he did against toneri.


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## Braiyan (Nov 23, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> You can't tell me that the COR didn't break tsb yet rasengan did



But I never said Rasengan broke through the TSB. Toneri did, when he got blasted through it by a point blank Rasengan. Just like how Madara's TSB could tank EE but couldn't tank Madara being blasted through it from a direct punch by Gai.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 23, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> 1. Yea as a matter of fact the 8 tails did use a bijuudama, the 3rd pushed hachibi to exhaustion, the only technique capable of eating away bijuus reserves are the tbb, and also why the hell will hachibi not use a tbb on his enemy?? And again hachibi himself seem to think his tbb might've been what gave the raikage his scar. All these indicate that tbb was fired.


 He has never in cannon taken one, your assumption is not proof sir.
Also Gyukii clearly remembers he did not give that man that scar, because they fell on their own jutsu.



uchihakil said:


> 2. Carving a hole in a mountain doesn't make it equal to a bijuudama, hell its even weaker than RS which is inferior to bijuu dama, BTW the weaker bijuus can individually bust mountains with BD, and busting a mountain >>> carving a mountain, naruto stalemated a combined attack of the 5, which goes to show you how inferior a COR is to a BD.


"Carve AWAY a mountain" not a hole in.
Your premise is wrong.

Also if it can carve away a mountain normally, why would being bigger, full of Sage and Kurama chakra, and pushed by 9 BM cloaked people not be stronger, once again.




uchihakil said:


> Again, juubito also tanked a 100% kurama + senjutsu COR (a kurama sized COR)


If you mean he uses multiple TSB to wall it from the front yes. That does not protect his back from a flying clone master.


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## uchihakil (Nov 23, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> But I never said Rasengan broke through the TSB. Toneri did, when he got blasted through it by a point blank Rasengan. Just like how Madara's TSB could tank EE but couldn't tank Madara being blasted through it from a direct punch by Gai.




A direct EE punch >>>>> EE shockwave, a shockwave always pales in comparison to the original attack, so EE's direct hit was simply strong enough to force madara through the tsb while the shockwave wasn't, and hell to the fucking no rasengan having the force to push a rikudou enhanced character through a stable tsb (go rewatch the scene man, it was already blown up by the COR), seriously how the fuck does rasengan have the force to push a character through a defence that stopped COR's from reaching its target?? You aint being logical fam.


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## uchihakil (Nov 23, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> He has never in cannon taken one, your assumption is not proof sir.
> Also Gyukii clearly remembers he did not give that man that scar, because they fell on their own jutsu.
> 
> 
> ...



- You telling me hachibi didn't use a tbb at all till the end and he fell on it is the same as telling me the raikage didn't use hell stab till the end of his fight when he fell on it, i call bs on that tbh (we can agree to disagree on this)

- The 9 COR didn't even break the shield, it was naru/sasuke's kyuusano sword that broke through.

- Tsb can be manipulated to cover every angle (and juubito uses rikudou senjutsu, so he wont be caught offguard with a clone).


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 23, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> You telling me hachibi didn't use a tbb at all till the end and he fell on it is the same as telling me the raikage didn't use hell stab till the end of his fight when he fell on it, i call bs on that tbh (we can agree to disagree on this)


Except we know that A3 was stated to have cut off all his tails with 1 finger Nukite. 
And that Gyukii said he did not get off the TBB.

If you can show me other wise anywhere I will apologize. But to say he took a TBB when it wasn't shown or stated would be conjecture, and conjecture by is very nature is prone to bias.



uchihakil said:


> The 9 COR didn't even break the shield, it was naru/sasuke's kyuusano sword that broke through.


I never stated other wise. Merely that 9 enhanced COR pushed by BM user probably isn't weaker than one TBB by much if at all. Protrayal shows this.



uchihakil said:


> - Tsb can be manipulated to cover every angle (and juubito uses rikudou senjutsu, so he wont be caught offguard with a clone).


 does he just turtle the whole time then in an incredably OOC move?


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## Come off it (Nov 23, 2017)

I'd go juubito winning this one. Just on Toneri's durability and experience at fighting. He's a classic otsutsuki, all power and zero fighting ability. Just look at kinshiki, supposed to be capable of splitting a planet in half which means he should be vastly superior to toneri, gets held down by two kage, lower end kage lvl shinobi which he seemed to use a significant portion of his power to break free. He then cuts the shinju in half, the same attack every body else got hit by and they still got up. Otsutsuki's are really overrated. Couldn't obito block toneri's attack anyway using TSB? or just tank it like naruto did? Or take more damage than naruto but heal it straight away? 

Not saying splitting the moon isn't impressive because it is, but he failed to even injure naruto at point blank range, he didn't even block. So you have to look at how strong toneri's moon splitting attack is on point of contact. It's AOE is massive but how much damage does it do to an individual. Naruto OPed it with a rasengan using little amounts of kurama's chakra and he survived getting hit by it without receiving no damage. I don't see naruto coming off unscathed from a juubidama to the head without blocking or even coming close OPing it with a rasengan. It's similar to Naruto taking on a PS without using his Kurama avatar and winning? Shattering a PS sword with a rasengan or tanking it to the head, i just don't see that happening. A perfect example of this is Naruto splitting the shinju in half but madara took little damage even though he took the attack head on without blocking. Whereas sasuke cut him in half with his attack. This means Naruto's attack is weaker on PoC than sasuke's but its AOE is far greater. Sasuke can't cut the shinju in half with the attack that cut madara in half but naruto's can. That just means its harder to dodge naruto's attack but not withstand the damage dealt compared to sasuke. Similar to toneri's attack, literally impossible to dodge without STN, but not impossible to withstand.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Come off it (Nov 23, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Toneri's feats far exceed that of both Obito AND JJ Asspulldara. I don't see how the fact that he is superior to either one of them is even debatable tbh...


So you put optimistic on my post, care for an explanation why?


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 24, 2017)

Come off it said:


> So you put optimistic on my post, care for an explanation why?


It's Hussain. I think it's unanimous he works in mysterious and infuriating ways


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## uchihakil (Nov 24, 2017)

Come off it said:


> I'd go juubito winning this one. Just on Toneri's durability and experience at fighting. He's a classic otsutsuki, all power and zero fighting ability. Just look at kinshiki, supposed to be capable of splitting a planet in half which means he should be vastly superior to toneri, gets held down by two kage, lower end kage lvl shinobi which he seemed to use a significant portion of his power to break free. He then cuts the shinju in half, the same attack every body else got hit by and they still got up. Otsutsuki's are really overrated. Couldn't obito block toneri's attack anyway using TSB? or just tank it like naruto did? Or take more damage than naruto but heal it straight away?
> 
> Not saying splitting the moon isn't impressive because it is, but he failed to even injure naruto at point blank range, he didn't even block. So you have to look at how strong toneri's moon splitting attack is on point of contact. It's AOE is massive but how much damage does it do to an individual. Naruto OPed it with a rasengan using little amounts of kurama's chakra and he survived getting hit by it without receiving no damage. I don't see naruto coming off unscathed from a juubidama to the head without blocking or even coming close OPing it with a rasengan. It's similar to Naruto taking on a PS without using his Kurama avatar and winning? Shattering a PS sword with a rasengan or tanking it to the head, i just don't see that happening. A perfect example of this is Naruto splitting the shinju in half but madara took little damage even though he took the attack head on without blocking. Whereas sasuke cut him in half with his attack. This means Naruto's attack is weaker on PoC than sasuke's but its AOE is far greater. Sasuke can't cut the shinju in half with the attack that cut madara in half but naruto's can. That just means its harder to dodge naruto's attack but not withstand the damage dealt compared to sasuke. Similar to toneri's attack, literally impossible to dodge without STN, but not impossible to withstand.




Well said, and very good explanation ^^^


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## uchihakil (Nov 24, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Except we know that A3 was stated to have cut off all his tails with 1 finger Nukite.
> And that Gyukii said he did not get off the TBB.
> 
> If you can show me other wise anywhere I will apologize. But to say he took a TBB when it wasn't shown or stated would be conjecture, and conjecture by is very nature is prone to bias.
> ...




- Its not bias, i just dont see a bijuu fighting to exhaustion without using a tbb against an opponent, hell hachibi went for a bijuu dama in taka's fight in less than a minute or two in the fight, its the bijuus primary move (as i said we can agree to disagree). I'm pretty sure not every single detail in the manga was shown or stated that you accept, many examples like obito never using the great fireball jutsu or many examples like that, somethings are there to be pieced up by the viewers.

-  BSM naruto's TBB + Sasuke's Curse mode Arrow >>> 9 SCOR from BSM naruto (if you dont believe me, make a poll and see for yourself).

- Its not OOC for him to be onguard, the first time he was caught off guard juubito became more cautious and reacted to the second kurama sized COR, and tobirama noted they had to be careful or else get erased because they wont be catching him offguard.


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## Braiyan (Nov 24, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> (go rewatch the scene man, it was already blown up by the COR)



This is still not true.


At around 7:34, right before Toneri is blasted out of his TSB, you can see that the dome is completely intact, meaning it withstood the clones' attacks. We know what TSB look like when they're damaged: they're either cracked, or parts of the shape broken off completely, neither of which happened to Toneri's dome.

And this doesn't even go into the punch itself. Naruto punched Toneri so hard the impact caused the ground all around them to explode. And that was after pushing back a moon splitting sword. If he used even half of that energy in the punch he gave Toneri, that's still more powerful than EE.


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## uchihakil (Nov 24, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> This is still not true.
> 
> 
> At around 7:34, right before Toneri is blasted out of his TSB, you can see that the dome is completely intact, meaning it withstood the clones' attacks. We know what TSB look like when they're damaged: they're either cracked, or parts of the shape broken off completely, neither of which happened to Toneri's dome.
> ...



Firstoff all, i saw what happened, COR busted the goudodama, then naruto came from underneath with a rasengan that pushed toneri back and going through tsb (which was crumbling away), that doesn't indicate nor show anything, because shit was already busted and was crumbling.

And to think TL naruto's punch > EE is laughable lmao

Naruto's punch connected and created that shockwave (can naruto's punch create shockwave like that without connecting?? hell No), Guy's punch dug a hole 100's of meters beneath the Earth crust with pure shockwave, and guy was also further away to his surrounding, not even comparable.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 24, 2017)

So we're gonna ignore that Juubito can literally use Nunoboku and summon the Shinju to fight if needed? We haven't even touched on the fact that he still has the options of sending Toneri to Kamuiland or using the Rinnegan if he chooses to. Even if you apply the PIS/CIS, the Shinju is still a big thing for Toneri to overcome.



ARGUS said:


> Guy who made BSM naruto EMS Sasuke and everyone in the SA including Madara and Hashirama look like scrubs >>>>>> guy who got punked by a single punch from BSM naruto





Mar55 said:


> No, clearly they are exactly the same in every relevant way, other than age.





Cosmos said:


> I mean, BSM is BSM right ?
> What could have possibly changed ?



If you want to go by the guide book it was KCM + SM... which means Naruto used an inferior mode with SM to beat Toneri. Now, whether you want to say KCM with 100% Kurama>BM with 50% Kurama is up to you. Though, Kurama did separate from Naruto to battle that Hamura statue. So then you have to decide if that KCM was the same as 50% Kurama KCM which has implications for your stance.



Jikaishin said:


> Didn't Naruto was flying and touching TSB? Doesn't that mean he was using SPSM



If you want to go by the guidebook, no.  



Nuttynutdude said:


> TSB are not a byproduct of senjutsu. They are a byproduct of yin-yang release. Just because the six paths sage mode has them doesnt mean they are one of the same. the tenseigan is not senjutsu.



They are a mixture of all elements. Yin-Yang can be added to create the effect that controlled Juubi Jin have on jutsu. Tenseigan probably a form of Six Paths power. Hamura had it and he inherted Kaguya's chakra.



Hi no Ishi said:


> 0 people in the manga think BSM Naruto is a fodder to Hashirama.
> 
> Naruto is repeatedly compared to him, with Tobirama even thinking Naruto will likely become a better hokage than Hashi.
> 
> ...



Tobirama compares Naruto to Hashirama and says that he'll likely become a better Hokage and somehow you take that to mean that BSM Naruto's power is comparable to Hashirama's. 

A combination of Naruto, Sasuke, Minato and Tobirama were able to handle Juubito. SM Hashirama was purposely kept away from that battle. 

In fact, Naruto sustained battle against him with help _*while *_Juubito was using the rest of his abilities (the Shinju) against the entire alliance. Are you gonna tell me that BSM Naruto, _alone_, is going to sustain a battle against Juubito going all out?
Then there's the fact the Senju bros were canonically stated to be brought back at full power.

How do these facts get lost?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 24, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So we're gonna ignore that Juubito can literally use Nunoboku and summon the Shinju to fight if needed? We haven't even touched on the fact that he still has the options of sending Toneri to Kamuiland or using the Rinnegan if he chooses to. Even if you apply the PIS/CIS, the Shinju is still a big thing for Toneri to overcome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) you still salty about believing the manga?

2)Rikudo Enhanced BSM yes, a guy who can one hand army busting Rasenshruiken in base.

That's why Kurama has to be fighting  a made up thing for this to even be a fight lol


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 24, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) you still salty about believing the manga?
> 
> 2)Rikudo Enhanced BSM yes, a guy who can one hand army busting Rasenshruiken in base.
> 
> That's why Kurama has to be fighting  a made up thing for this to even be a fight lol



1. Your post literally goes against the manga, hence I'm wondering how you missed that much information. 

2. Personally, I would say it is a RSM version of KCM-SM... but _apparently _we should go by the guide book which says it is just KCM-SM. 

Kurama can't take the Shinju, though. And if you're saying Kurama needing to fight the Hamura statue was needed to make Naruto vs Toneri a fight then how is Toneri going to stand against the Shinju? In case you missed this too, Kurama admitted inferiority to the Shinju backed up by the fact that the first form of the Juubi we saw had no problem taking Kurama.


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## Braiyan (Nov 24, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> going through tsb (which was crumbling away), that doesn't indicate nor show anything, because shit was already busted and was crumbling.



Except that it wasn't, hence why I mentioned the dome being completely intact.



uchihakil said:


> Naruto's punch connected and created that shockwave (can naruto's punch create shockwave like that without connecting?? hell No), Guy's punch dug a hole 100's of meters beneath the Earth crust with pure shockwave, and guy was also further away to his surrounding, not even comparable.



Doesn't matter. If Naruto's punch contained even half the chakra that he used to overpower a moon splitter, then it's stronger than EE.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Come off it (Nov 24, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> It's Hussain. I think it's unanimous he works in mysterious and infuriating ways


Ah okay. I'll bare that in mind.

So what do you think about toneri's moon splitting attack in terms of the amount of damage it can do to an individual? Obviously its AOE is monstrous and toneri's chakra lvl's are as well to pull this off, but because it literally does no damage to naruto and, the big one, is naruto Oping it with his rasengan, makes me question how strong it actually is? Against momo naruto decided to shield and tank the BB. However if this attack was weaker than toneri's then he could've blown it away easily, seemingly without even needing to use his Kurama avatar, with one rasengan? As we've seen when a BB gets Oped they don't even go off as shown by Sasuke's Susano (9 bijuu power up) and hashirama VOTE against Madara's barrage. Honestly i'm not sure where it sits in terms of power, I'm thinking its weaker than a PS sword via contact area but stronger than sasuke's CMv3 susano sword. I'm not trying to low ball his attacks but they honestly don't seem to do much damage to an individual. Even when he attacks using his silver wheel rebirth, he doesn't even remotely damage anybody but wrecks the part of the moon it touches and the area is attacks is pretty big. We are talking about Sai, Shikamaru, Hinata, Saukra received little to no damage from toneri, these lot have never been one for durability aside from Sakura with her healing but she's not even using it. I'd like to hear people's opinions on this because i think Toneri, Kinshiki and Momo are really overrated?


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## Kai (Nov 24, 2017)

I'd favor Obito over Toneri as Juubi's regeneration is more impressive than anything Toneri has displayed in terms of endurance or durability. In any comparison of their powers that is one Obito outclasses Toneri as part of being a Juubi's host.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 24, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 1. Your post literally goes against the manga, hence I'm wondering how you missed that much information.


 not at all lol.
Not when Tobirama keeps saying stuff like that when he sees Naruto fight. What else could he be referencing while in battle. Especially when he is watching Naruto fight someone stronger than Hashirama when he says it.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 2. Personally, I would say it is a RSM version of KCM-SM... but _apparently _we should go by the guide book which says it is just KCM-SM.


 It is KCSM but he is always Rikudo powered. Thus the flight etc that only comes from Rikudo senjutsu.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kurama can't take the Shinju, though. And if you're saying Kurama needing to fight the Hamura statue was needed to make Naruto vs Toneri a fight then how is Toneri going to stand against the Shinju? In case you missed this too, Kurama admitted inferiority to the Shinju backed up by the fact that the first form of the Juubi we saw had no problem taking Kurama.


 Kurama does not need to split here. Naruto can wipe all the branches with base Rasenshruiken lol.

I was saying Uchihakil needed to make Kurama else where in the Naruto Vs Obito thread to make it a fight actually.


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## uchihakil (Nov 25, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Ah okay. I'll bare that in mind.
> 
> So what do you think about toneri's moon splitting attack in terms of the amount of damage it can do to an individual? Obviously its AOE is monstrous and toneri's chakra lvl's are as well to pull this off, but because it literally does no damage to naruto and, the big one, is naruto Oping it with his rasengan, makes me question how strong it actually is? Against momo naruto decided to shield and tank the BB. However if this attack was weaker than toneri's then he could've blown it away easily, seemingly without even needing to use his Kurama avatar, with one rasengan? As we've seen when a BB gets Oped they don't even go off as shown by Sasuke's Susano (9 bijuu power up) and hashirama VOTE against Madara's barrage. Honestly i'm not sure where it sits in terms of power, I'm thinking its weaker than a PS sword via contact area but stronger than sasuke's CMv3 susano sword. I'm not trying to low ball his attacks but they honestly don't seem to do much damage to an individual. Even when he attacks using his silver wheel rebirth, he doesn't even remotely damage anybody but wrecks the part of the moon it touches and the area is attacks is pretty big. We are talking about Sai, Shikamaru, Hinata, Saukra received little to no damage from toneri, these lot have never been one for durability aside from Sakura with her healing but she's not even using it. I'd like to hear people's opinions on this because i think Toneri, Kinshiki and Momo are really overrated?




Thank you, its what i've been tryna say, having large AOE doesn't make it potent enough to breach characters on juubi jin level, juubito's tsb tanked quad juubidama neg diff, shikamaru and gang tanked silver wheel reincarnation negg diff yet it blew quite a large whole on the moon, his attacks have AOE, but are not that potent atleast against demi god tier opponents, i dont see anything preventing juubito from overpowering it the same way naruto did.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 25, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> not at all lol.
> Not when Tobirama keeps saying stuff like that when he sees Naruto fight. What else could he be referencing while in battle. Especially when he is watching Naruto fight someone stronger than Hashirama when he says it.
> 
> It is KCSM but he is always Rikudo powered. Thus the flight etc that only comes from Rikudo senjutsu.
> ...


Well here. something to consider: Is KCM Naruto, and let's give him the full Kyuubi because wank, with sage mode, capable of constraining the Juubi in any way? Because from what i remember, the Juubi was such an unbelievably amount stronger than anything they had seen before, and sage Hashi used one jutsu to hold it down.


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 25, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Well here. something to consider: Is KCM Naruto, and let's give him the full Kyuubi because wank, with sage mode, capable of constraining the Juubi in any way? Because from what i remember, the Juubi was such an unbelievably amount stronger than anything they had seen before, and sage Hashi used one jutsu to hold it down.


Can X character do Y Jutsu is an of litmus test.  
It's like saying "can Hashirama do Edo Tensei ? No? Then he is weaker than part 1 Orochimaru, ha!

Is Hashi stronger than Obito because he knows Gate of the great God ?
Is Gaara stronger than Hashi because his sealing tags would have out down madara?


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## Trojan (Nov 25, 2017)

Kai said:


> I'd favor Obito over Toneri as Juubi's regeneration is more impressive than anything Toneri has displayed in terms of endurance or durability. In any comparison of their powers that is one Obito outclasses Toneri as part of being a Juubi's host.



Toneri could simply absorb all of his chakra at once the same way he did to Naruto.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Nov 25, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Toneri could simply absorb all of his chakra at once the same way he did to Naruto.



Does toneri have any feats of absorbing chakra from a character that can absorb chakra too?? Whats stopping juubito from activating preta and nullifying the technique, kishi is good at balancing characters, he gave the sage rinnegan and hamura tenseigan (taking them as equals, i doubt either can neg diff the other by chakra absorbing) and we have already seen that energy absorbing techs can be nullified by others (see hashi vs edo madara)

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Android (Nov 25, 2017)

The struggle arguments made in favor of Obito are pretty fun to read 
Hurr Toneri can't absorb chakra from someone who can absorb it.
As if Obito has any worth mentioning absorption feats.

Hurr Obito has regeneration.
As if regeneration determines difference in strength.
I guess Tsunade is stronger than Sage Naruto because regeneration.
Would love to see Obito "regenerating" when he's cut to shreds.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Jikaishin (Nov 25, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> The struggle arguments made in favor of Obito are pretty fun to read
> Hurr Toneri can't absorb chakra from someone who can absorb it.
> As if Obito has any worth mentioning absorption feats.
> 
> ...



I would like to know, do you think this idea that Obito could beat Toneri is due to hate for Toneri or people really believe something like that?


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## uchihakil (Nov 25, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> The struggle arguments made in favor of Obito are pretty fun to read
> Hurr Toneri can't absorb chakra from someone who can absorb it.
> As if Obito has any worth mentioning absorption feats.
> 
> ...




For a character than can regenerate half his body yea its a point worth noting, the rinnegan can absorb chakra juubito not using it doesn't mean he can't.


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Thank you, its what i've been tryna say, having large AOE doesn't make it potent enough to breach characters on juubi jin level, juubito's tsb tanked quad juubidama neg diff, shikamaru and gang tanked silver wheel reincarnation negg diff yet it blew quite a large whole on the moon, his attacks have AOE, but are not that potent atleast against demi god tier opponents, i dont see anything preventing juubito from overpowering it the same way naruto did.


Yep that i fully agree, Large AOE but they don't hit very hard. Obito can tank anything toneri throws at him. Either by taking zero damage like naruto or taking damage and recovering.


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> The struggle arguments made in favor of Obito are pretty fun to read
> Hurr Toneri can't absorb chakra from someone who can absorb it.
> As if Obito has any worth mentioning absorption feats.
> 
> ...



Yes but toneri's attacks didn't damage anyone throughout the whole fight. Silver wheel rebirth did zero damage to sai and them. That blasted a giant hole in the moon and they were fine. Cut's the moon in half an doesn't injure naruto or anyone. Massive AOE attacks will little power on PoC to an individual. I'd love to see Naruto have a juubidama land on his head and take zero damage. No happening. Naruto took more damage from momoshiki's bijuudama with his Kurama avatar activated and i'm pretty sure that bijuudama couldn't split the moon in two. Otsutsuki are over rated as shit. Toneri is overrated massively. He split the moon in two but damaged no one. Brilliant


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## Android (Nov 25, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Yes but toneri's attacks didn't damage anyone throughout the whole fight. Silver wheel rebirth did zero damage to sai and them. That blasted a giant hole in the moon and they were fine. Cut's the moon in half an doesn't injure naruto or anyone. Massive AOE attacks will little power on PoC to an individual. I'd love to see Naruto have a juubidama land on his head and take zero damage. No happening. Naruto took more damage for momoshiki's bijuudama with his Kurama avatar activated and i'm pretty sure that bijuudama couldn't split the moon in two. Otsutsuki are over rated as shit.


Nobody said that Naruto is going to tank a TBB.
But the moon cutter wasn't used on anybody other than Naruto. So I'm not sure what you mean by "didn't hurt anyone", as if Toneri was facing a gennin.
Let me guess, Sasuke hasn't killed anyone with Enton, so that must mean Enton isn't a threat to Konohamaru.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Nobody said that Naruto is going to tank a TBB.
> But the moon cutter wasn't used on anybody other than Naruto. So I'm not sure what you mean by "didn't hurt anyone", as if Toneri was facing a gennin.
> Let me guess, Sasuke hasn't killed anyone with Enton, so that must mean Enton isn't a threat to Konohamaru.


So you agree that toneri's moon splitting attack is weaker than a TBB when coming into contact with it? Just need to make that clear. It just seems as if you think toneri would win.


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## Android (Nov 25, 2017)

Come off it said:


> So you agree that toneri's moon splitting attack is weaker than a TBB when coming into contact with it? Just need to make that clear. It just seems as if you think toneri would win.


Seems to me you're underestimating the AoE of the Jubi's TBBs.
The Jubi's smallest TBB was country side. Its explosive power reached far above the atmosphere.
The one Minato teleported to the other side of the world had a strong enough impact to reach to the SA in the land of lighting.
Now you can imagine the AoE of a supercharged TBB from JJ Obito, let alone 4 of them.
And yes, I already said that Toneri would win. Should have been abvious if read the first reply in this thread.


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Seems to me you're underestimating the AoE of the Jubi's TBBs.
> The Jubi's smallest TBB was country side. Its explosive power reached far above the atmosphere.
> The one Minato teleported to the other side of the world had a strong enough impact to reach to the SA in the land of lighting.
> Now you can imagine the AoE of a supercharged TBB from JJ Obito, let alone 4 of them.
> And yes, I already said that Toneri would win. Should have been abvious if read the first reply in this thread.


Wait so how are you saying that toneri wins? So juubito hits harder than Toneri since you said naruto isn't tanking TBB's, Juubito can block these, meaning if his attack is stronger he can also block toneri's attack will less difficulty resulting in toneri's attack not doing anything to juubito. So basically his silver wheel rebirth isn't doing anything since sai can survive it with zero damage. He can block the moon splitter. He's a better and more experienced fighter. Recover any damage taken. Hit toneri's glass jaw once and his wrecked. Juubito wins GG


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## Android (Nov 25, 2017)

The reason I told @Mar55 that Toneri's firepower was more practical, was because of the fact that Obito's TBBs won't even be a factor 
You see, when Obito used the TBBs, he couldn't add NE to them, otherwise he'd fuk himself up if he did.
The only conclusion is that he didn't add NE to them, because they got nullified on his shield.
And the fact that:
- BSM TBB + Susano arrow busted Obito's shield.
- 9 Rasengans plowed a hole in it.
- Gai's punch obliterated Madara's shield completely.
Attacks that aren't even in the same realm of power as one Jubi TBB, let alone 4 of them.
So yeah, if Obito is going to use the TBBs, he won't be capable of adding NE to them, otherwise he'd kill himself. And any non-NE amped attacks will just be nullified by Toneri's TSBs.


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## Android (Nov 25, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Wait so how are you saying that toneri wins? So juubito hits harder than Toneri since you said naruto isn't tanking TBB's, Juubito can block these, meaning if his attack is stronger he can also block toneri's attack will less difficulty resulting in toneri's attack not doing anything to juubito. So basically his silver wheel rebirth isn't doing anything since sai can survive it with zero damage. He can block the moon splitter. He's a better and more experienced fighter. Recover any damage taken. Hit toneri's glass jaw once and his wrecked. Juubito wins GG


Since when is having stronger attacks is definite determine of the winner ? Oh wait, since never.
Obito's shield is only tanking two things. Jack and shit. If his defense got plowed through by 9 Odama Rasengans, Toneri's moon cutter is going to fuck him up.
He's slower by feats, and his puny regeneration isn't saving him from Toneri's attacks if Naruto's SM Rasengan craved a hole in his back. If he takes on hit from Toneri's moon cutter head on, he's fucked.


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> The reason I told @Mar55 that Toneri's firepower was more practical, was because of the fact that Obito's TBBs won't even be a factor
> You see, when Obito used the TBBs, he couldn't add NE to them, otherwise he'd fuk himself up if he did.
> The only conclusion is that he didn't add NE to them, because they got nullified on his shield.
> And the fact that:
> ...



Why would he not add NE when fighting someone with TSO's? which by your means would kiil toneri since the TSO's aren't no where near durable enough. Secondly how is toneri actually going to beat juubito. His attacks are no where near strong enough to an individual.


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## Kai (Nov 25, 2017)

Someone show me Toneri's durability feats. As far as I'm concerned one clean hit from a Six Paths character and he's done for. The same can't be stated vice versa. Obito has the greatest endurance feats of the entire manga, surviving Raikiri to the heart, having the bijuus forcefully removed, and having the Mazo forcefully summoned from his body. 

Toneri would be hard pressed to do any lasting damage to Obito let alone bypass Juubi's state of the art regeneration that completely recovered from Night Gai within moments.

Reactions: Optimistic 3


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Since when is having stronger attacks is definite determine of the winner ? Oh wait, since never.
> Obito's shield is only tanking two things. Jack and shit. If his defense got plowed through by 9 Odama Rasengans, Toneri's moon cutter is going to fuck him up.
> He's slower by feats, and his puny regeneration isn't saving him from Toneri's attacks if Naruto's SM Rasengan craved a hole in his back. If he takes on hit from Toneri's moon cutter head on, he's fucked.



Stronger attacks don't determine your victory, but obito is better than toneri at everything else so that makes you win.

No he's not dead at all. Since when has a rasengan hitting someone never been able to damage them? Puny regen, okay. one of the highest regen's in the verse, puny okay. How is he slower by feats? You just said naruto isn't tanking TBB which by your words had no NE meaning adding NE is only favouring obito. Toneri can't hurt naruto at all. Naruto took more damage against shin than he did toneri. Naruto imo can't beat a PS without his kurama avatar, can't annihilate momo's BB. BB's get vapourised when Oped, Naruto blocked this and took high damage then got captured. Don't say "oh its because he didn't want to let the village get damaged". Sasuke vapourised 3 BB's into nothing at VOTE so it can be done. Hashirama vapourised madara's BB barrage at VOTE so it can be done. Naruto should be massively stronger than this since he can tank toneri's attack. However this is not the case because...toneris attack doesn't hit that hard on PoC to an individual. Obito is tanking this, Large AOE but low on power.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Kai said:


> Someone show me Toneri's durability feats. As far as I'm concerned one clean hit from a Six Paths character and he's done for. The same can't be stated vice versa. Obito has the greatest endurance feats of the entire manga, surviving Raikiri to the heart, having the bijuus forcefully removed, and having the Mazo forcefully summoned from his body.
> 
> Toneri would be hard pressed to do any lasting damage to Obito let alone bypass Juubi's state of the art regeneration that completely recovered from Night Gai within moments.


Yeah exactly. Also looking at his attacks they aren't very strong, they just have an AOE of the moon. Look at his attack against sai and them, compare this to the damage it does to the moon. They aren't even injured at all. Naruto having more durability than a TTJ, i'm struggling to see how. They can tank what he can and then heal from it completely. Obito's durability is stupid, almost as high as ohnoki's loool. Madara needs the mazo to even be alive and this man is head butting meteors. 80+ tanking a meteor to the head, brilliant.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kai (Nov 25, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Would love to see Obito "regenerating" when he's cut to shreds.


Yeah we saw how well that worked out against Madara  
The man came back with a brand new lower torso.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Nov 25, 2017)

Why people even bring TBB as if it's a factor or something? 

1- Toneri can use Gedu-Damas much more than Obito could, to begin with. So, just as Obito can protect himself from the explosion, so can Toneri.

2- Toneri can teleport. Even Obito set up a barrier, and even if Toneri for some reason did not use GD to protect himself, he can simply teleport outside of the barrier.


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## Trojan (Nov 25, 2017)

Kai said:


> Yeah we saw how well that worked out against Madara
> The man came back with a brand new lower torso.


U did not answer me, what will Obito do when Toneri absorb all of his chakra and use it against him like he did to Naruto?


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 25, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Can X character do Y Jutsu is an of litmus test.
> It's like saying "can Hashirama do Edo Tensei ? No? Then he is weaker than part 1 Orochimaru, ha!
> 
> Is Hashi stronger than Obito because he knows Gate of the great God ?
> Is Gaara stronger than Hashi because his sealing tags would have out down madara?


That would be an argument, if we were discussing whether someone knowing a jutsu is relevant. Hashirama held down the ten tails, now idc if you know the best sealing jutsu in the world but you're not holding down the ten tails unless you're damn strong.

And just on another note, Gaara didn't seal Madara. He used his best sealing jutsu and Madara busted out of it blind


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Hussain said:


> U did not answer me, what will Obito do when Toneri absorb all of his chakra and use it against him like he did to Naruto?


He only did this because Naruto didn't finish him off. If Naruto was bloodthirsty toneri would've been blown to bits. How? by just punching him in the face. Naruto is using a tiny portion of kurama's chakra. Obito has the juubi, RIP Toneri's jaw. Not even orochimaru is bringing that back.


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## Trojan (Nov 25, 2017)

Come off it said:


> He only did this because Naruto didn't finish him off. If Naruto was bloodthirsty toneri would've been blown to bits. How? by just punching him in the face. Naruto is using a tiny portion of kurama's chakra. Obito has the juubi, RIP Toneri's jaw. Not even orochimaru is bringing that back.


I don't think you know what I am taking about. 
And sadly, I did not find the clip on Youtube. U_U


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Why people even bring TBB as if it's a factor or something?
> 
> 1- Toneri can use Gedu-Damas much more than Obito could, to begin with. So, just as Obito can protect himself from the explosion, so can Toneri.
> 
> 2- Toneri can teleport. Even Obito set up a barrier, and even if Toneri for some reason did not use GD to protect himself, he can simply teleport outside of the barrier.



We are bringing up TBB's because Naruto can't tank these without sustaining damage which compared to toneri's attacks that didn't hurt naruto. That means toneri's attacks don't hit as hard. Also judging from the durability of the TSO's agaisnt Senjutsu i'd say toneri can't block juubidmama's + NE. Toneri can teleport? Juubito will tank anything Toneri throws at him. whereas toneri can't tank juubito's.


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Hussain said:


> I don't think you know what I am taking about.
> And sadly, I did not find the clip on Youtube. U_U


Yes i do know what you are on about, and the same applies. He takes a portion of naruto's/kurama's chakra. He's not taking the juubi's chakra all at once before obito punches his jaw.


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## Mar55 (Nov 25, 2017)

>Naruto did something far above Obito
>Obito can too bcuz "Six Paths"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> >Naruto did something far above Obito
> >Obito can too bcuz "Six Paths"


Naruto did something far above obito, did he?


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## Mar55 (Nov 25, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Naruto did something far above obito, did he?


Uh... yes...


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## Kai (Nov 25, 2017)

Hussain said:


> U did not answer me, what will Obito do when Toneri absorb all of his chakra and use it against him like he did to Naruto?


Toneri absorbed the Rasengan and used it against him. That
A) was directly countered later when Naruto inserted his chakra and removed the chakra orb from Hinata's body.
B) was not all of Naruto's chakra, not even close.
B) was a projectile and not some passive/inherent ability. It can't compete with Truth Seekers defense.

So an attack that couldn't finish Base Naruto will one shot a Juubi's host. Good one


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## Trojan (Nov 25, 2017)

Kai said:


> Toneri absorbed the Rasengan and used it against him. That
> A) was directly countered later when Naruto inserted his chakra and removed the chakra orb from Hinata's body.
> B) was not all of Naruto's chakra, not even close.
> B) was a projectile and not some passive/inherent ability. It can't compete with Truth Seekers defense.
> ...



Naruto lost all of his chakra, and Sakura kept healing him for 3 days back to back!


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## Mar55 (Nov 25, 2017)

Kai said:


> Toneri absorbed the Rasengan and used it against him. That
> A) was directly countered later when Naruto inserted his chakra and removed the chakra orb from Hinata's body.
> B) was not all of Naruto's chakra, not even close.



It was, as Sakura says as much when healing him, since he didn't sustain any actual damage. It was just chakra removal that left him near dead. The orb controlling Hinata isn't the same as when Naruto had his chakra drained.


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## Braiyan (Nov 25, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> >Naruto did something far above Obito
> >Obito can too bcuz "Six Paths"



Pro-Juubito arguments in a nutshell. 
Let's also not forget "Toneri has vast AoE but his damage output is fodder level". Guess this means Chibaku Tensei is also a fodder jutsu since it never killed anyone.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 25, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> Pro-Juubito arguments in a nutshell.
> Let's also not forget "Toneri has vast AoE but his damage output is fodder level". Guess this means Chibaku Tensei is also a fodder jutsu since it never killed anyone.


Perfect Susano'o, E/TSB, Wood Golem, etc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kai (Nov 25, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Naruto lost all of his chakra, and Sakura kept healing him for 3 days back to back!


So you whine about not getting your points responded to, and then you proceed to do the same and ignore all other's points. Pot calling kettle black Hussain 
There are several reasons why Toneri's orb can't one shot a Juubi's host. Still haven't responded to my points

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Nov 25, 2017)

Kai said:


> So you whine about not getting your points responded to, and then you proceed to do the same and ignore all other's points. Pot calling kettle black Hussain
> There are several reasons why Toneri's orb can't one shot a Juubi's host. Still haven't responded to my points



your base was wrong, and the points you built on it are wrong by default. 

There is absolutely no reason why the orb wouldn't work on Obito, you just assumed that based on nothing. 



> A) was directly countered later when Naruto inserted his chakra and removed the chakra orb from Hinata's body.



2 different jutsu. The orb in Hinata was there to control her, not to absorb her chakra. The orb used on Naruto absorbs chakra, not control him. Based on your logic, those orbs, Rassengan, GD...etc etc are all the same because they are spheres! 



Kai said:


> B) was not all of Naruto's chakra, not even close.


The guy got knocked out for 3 days because he got a little bit of his chakra absorbed according to you? Must be why he also knocked out when Pain used Preta Path on him, or when Asspulldara used the Wooden Dragon, or when the Tree absorbed his chakra...etc


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## Kai (Nov 25, 2017)

Hussain said:


> There is absolutely no reason why the orb wouldn't work on Obito, you just assumed that based on nothing.



Some tough words Hussain. "Absolutely no reason why it wouldn't work" when its never been used against defenses?

I see why you dodged points related to defense vs. projectile such as Truth Seekers I mentioned, and is there any reason why the projectile can't be evaded especially by a Juubi's host who can fly?



			
				Hussain said:
			
		

> 2 different jutsu. The orb in Hinata was there to control her, not to absorb her chakra. The orb used on Naruto absorbs chakra, not control him. Based on your logic, those orbs, Rassengan, GD...etc etc are all the same because they are spheres!


Fair enough.



			
				Hussain said:
			
		

> The guy got knocked out for 3 days because he got a little bit of his chakra absorbed according to you? Must be why he also knocked out when Pain used Preta Path on him, or when Asspulldara used the Wooden Dragon, or when the Tree absorbed his chakra...etc


He not only got his chakra absorbed but dealt with a detonated explosion from that chakra in his face at point blank range. I don't recall it saying it absorbed all of his chakra though.


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## Android (Nov 25, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Why would he not add NE when fighting someone with TSO's? which by your means would kiil toneri since the TSO's aren't no where near durable enough. Secondly how is toneri actually going to beat juubito. His attacks are no where near strong enough to an individual.


Because using the TBBs + NE in close proximity will kill him.
Because Toneri can dish out more power than what canonically plowed a hole in Obito's back, and what destroyed his shield.


Come off it said:


> Stronger attacks don't determine your victory, but obito is better than toneri at everything else so that makes you win.
> 
> No he's not dead at all. Since when has a rasengan hitting someone never been able to damage them? Puny regen, okay. one of the highest regen's in the verse, puny okay. How is he slower by feats? You just said naruto isn't tanking TBB which by your words had no NE meaning adding NE is only favouring obito. Toneri can't hurt naruto at all. Naruto took more damage against shin than he did toneri. Naruto imo can't beat a PS without his kurama avatar, can't annihilate momo's BB. BB's get vapourised when Oped, Naruto blocked this and took high damage then got captured. Don't say "oh its because he didn't want to let the village get damaged". Sasuke vapourised 3 BB's into nothing at VOTE so it can be done. Hashirama vapourised madara's BB barrage at VOTE so it can be done. Naruto should be massively stronger than this since he can tank toneri's attack. However this is not the case because...toneris attack doesn't hit that hard on PoC to an individual. Obito is tanking this, Large AOE but low on power.


No, he's not. Learn how to scale feats.
Obito's was being tagged in the middle of the air by a noob EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto when moving with their heavy constructs.
Toneri was keeping up with adult cloaked Naruto in all terms of speed including Shunshin.
A SM Rasengan craved a hole in Obito's back, and Toneri's moon cutter is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wait for it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a SM Rasengan.

Obito's shield got rekt by 9 Odama Rasengan by the rookies, and attack that is << <<<<  Toneri's sword.
Shinju tree ? Toneri cleaves it in half.
TBBs ? Nullified.
Obito's chakra ? Drained.

Let me give a little advice. In Versus topics, when you say X is superior to Y, or that Z can't hurt Y, you actually use feats and evidence to support what you are saying. Because by not doing so your argument is weak, and vague.


Kai said:


> Yeah we saw how well that worked out against Madara
> The man came back with a brand new lower torso.


Implying Obito is Madara 
Implying that Madara's feats who was canonically stated to be immortal + required the seals to be defeated + had more complete Jubi and the Shinju absorbed, can be given to Obito


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## Android (Nov 25, 2017)

Naruto's Senpo Rasengan craved a fuking hole in Obito's back, made him cough blood and forced him to use the truth seekers to heal, yet he is going to walk off Toneri's sword in one piece 

Naruto got KO'ed for 3 days even with Sakura constantly pumping with chakra to the point she couldn't stand on her feet, but Toneri absorbed a "little piece of his chakra" 

I swear the forum will give me cancer one day


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## Kai (Nov 25, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Implying Obito is Madara
> Implying that Madara's feats who was canonically stated to be immortal + required the seals to be defeated + had more complete Jubi and the Shinju absorbed, can be given to Obito


Well. The Juubi's regeneration that completely recovered from Night Gai within mere moments was before Madara absorbed the Shinju and became immortal, so that's a passive ability.


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## Android (Nov 25, 2017)

Kai said:


> Well. The Juubi's regeneration that completely recovered from Night Gai within mere moments was before Madara absorbed the Shinju and became immortal, so that's a passive ability.


Again, that's Madara's feats. Madara's Jubi had a full Gyuki + Yang Kyubi. Which Obito's Jubi lacked. He also had Hashi's healing abilities.
Obito doesn't even come close.


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## Android (Nov 25, 2017)

Oh, and Obito didn't require the seals to be defeated.

That says a lot.


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## Android (Nov 25, 2017)

Anyway. I'm better off just stop arguing here.
You people can't support anything you are saying. So this debate is pointless.


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Because using the TBBs + NE in close proximity will kill him.
> Because Toneri can dish out more power than what canonically plowed a hole in Obito's back, and what destroyed his shield.
> 
> No, he's not. Learn how to scale feats.
> ...



Okay learn how to scale feats, Momo's attack can't split the moon, but damages naruto using a higher defensive ability whilst blocking + he's older in prime and most likely stronger. Takes damage and is captured. Sasuke claims naruto could just blast it away(He can also blow away toneri's attack).Takes damage, a weaker version of naruto get hits by toneri's moon splitting attack. lower defensive state, lower defensive ability used and comes off unscathed. That means Momo's BB the size of a chunnin exam stadium hits harder then toneri's attack. Juubito is hitting harder than this, not debatable. So Juubidama + NE >>>>>>>Juubidama>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Momo's BB>>>>>>>>>>>Toneri's moon splitter due to damage received.  Toneri can hit harder than shin but shin does more damage to naruto than toneri. Shin stabbed naruto and actually hurt him, Naruto on full defense,(kurama avatar up), Toneri's split the moon and didn't injure him whilst not blocking see how that works. Toneri's attacks are large but they don't do too much damage when someone gets hit by them, Do i think obito will take damage, Yes i do but will he die, nope he's got far too much fire power and he regen abilities are high. You overate toneri's moon splitting attack in terms of power, Look at Toneri's attack against sai and them. Big AOE, little damage taken if any. Secondly Naruto can block this attack with a rasengan, okay so:

Lets show some feats, Naruto uses kurama avatar to stop PS because without it he loses, toneri gets beat without it, Naruto can't stop a juubidama with either forms, naruto whose rasengan apparently can generate more force than a TTJ can; not including juubidama's. Apparently juubidama's don't travel far and because they hit a barrier that means they only land in close proximity without pushing their targets who are getting swamped and overwhelmed by it before it explodes. Naruto can't beat a PS without his kurama avatar otherwise he wouldn't even need to use him against sasuke. Therefore Toneri's moon splitting attack < PS terms of attack strength on PoC to an individual not AOE. BSM Naruto + EMS CM Sasuke susano = PS maybe slightly lower. Toneri's attack is weaker than PS/BSM naruto + EMS CM Sasuke due to scaling. But he split the moon? don't care as his attack strength is awful compared to its size. One shot city. An attack in which naruto's rasengan would be weaker would op toneri's attack. Obito wrecks this clown. Juubito only gets beat by this because of his state of mind not attack power + the fact he created the shinju which also takes a lot of chakra. You could claim he would still get beat. However Juubidama one shots. 4 is overkill. Juubito only puts the barrier up to catch everyone in it so it hits the barrier edge and explodes. Not because they can't travel as we've seen they can.

Yes okay they maybe faster than him, in terms of movement speed but that doesn't mean he can't react to toneri's movements. Since obito aside from FTG all over the place never got caught off guard. Kinshiki who is as fast as sasuke has his movements read by the 5 kage on seperate occasions. One with chojuro who reads kinshiki's attacks but gets overwhelmed by the power not speed, Kurotsuchi hits him once in which sasuke does in a 1vs1. They then hold down this world buster of a character. Then when momo is introuble after being pressed by darui and gaara later the added intervention of Naruto and Sasuke, kinshiki uses all of his power to break through their restraints and flies full speed in which every person there dodges. All the kage have responded to these godly movements. So yeah juubito who is vastly superior is reacting to Toneri's movements.

They were naruto's odama rasengan's and it didn't destroy it that was the combo of naruto and sasuke's power which btw hits harder than toneri's attack. Toneri drains a tiny portion of Naruto's/Kurama's chakra so that means he can drain the juubi's in one second before getting punched in the face?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 25, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Okay learn how to scale feats, Momo's attack can't split the moon, but damages naruto using a higher defensive ability whilst blocking + he's older in prime and most likely stronger.



Wouldn't this directly imply it not only packs enough punch to do similar, it's stronger? Why would you go the other way?


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Oh, and Obito didn't require the seals to be defeated.
> 
> That says a lot.


Toneri can't hurt naruto. Juubito can obliterate that version of naruto. One juubidama is unblockable by Naruto let alone 4. How is toneri blocking this. He can't. Okay he may be able to damage obito but obito's regen is ridiculous. No its not madara's level but its still extremely high. I just don't see how toneri can win. 4 juubidama's with NE and its over, no barrier the juubidama's will keep moving far enough away from juubito to not sustain fatal damage. How can toneri approach this?


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Wouldn't this directly imply it not only packs enough punch to do similar, it's stronger? Why would you go the other way?


No what i'm saying is momo attack hits harder then Toneri's even though Naruto can shatter both. However naruto needs to use a bigger attack to beat momo's than he does for toneri's, also he takes damage from momo's even though his defensive ability is higher. Then equating this to obito is his juubidama hits harder than these attacks meaning it can wreck toneri's attack if they hit each other. Juubito hits way harder than Toneri and that's with one juubidama. Momo can't bust the moon because his attack doesn't have the AOE whereas toneri's does even though its weaker in power when it hits an individual.


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## Mar55 (Nov 25, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Then equating this to obito is his juubidama hits harder than these attacks meaning it can wreck toneri's attack if they hit each other.


How did you decide this? Both of those attacks have better feats than what we see the Jūbi actually accomplish.


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## uchihakil (Nov 26, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Because using the TBBs + NE in close proximity will kill him.
> Because Toneri can dish out more power than what canonically plowed a hole in Obito's back, and what destroyed his shield.
> 
> No, he's not. Learn how to scale feats.
> ...



BSM naruto and EMS sasuke + v1 and CM weren't started to sense/see juubito later on in their battle, at first they couldn't even see his movements, then they were able to react to him, he was still massively faster because he trashed them and blocked their every attack, and when he was on guard reacted to an ftg attack from BSM naruto and BM minato, you have absolutely nothing to prove he's slower than toneri/TL naruto. Dude wasn't even using. + he was fast enough that he didn't need the sharingan to help him tag them.


9 COR never breached juubito's defence (the same dude tanked a yin/yang kurama sized COR and also a tbb and susano arrow) which were all above what toneri tanked with his tsb. 

Juubito can also add senjutsu to the juubidama make a barrier and teleport out of the barrier.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 26, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> not at all lol.
> 
> Not when Tobirama keeps saying stuff like that when he sees Naruto fight. What else could he be referencing while in battle. Especially when he is watching Naruto fight someone stronger than Hashirama when he says it.



It could mean... he thinks Naruto could be a greater Hokage. That's it. This author wasn't reluctant to outright compare battle fighting capabilities. 



> It is KCSM but he is always Rikudo powered. Thus the flight etc that only comes from Rikudo senjutsu.



I agree, but last time I was told we should just go by the guidebook. Depends how you wanna play it.



> Kurama does not need to split here. Naruto can wipe all the branches with base Rasenshruiken lol.



Wipe all the branches of a chakra absorbing tree with a chakra shuriken. This is what Naruto must do whilst fighting Juubito?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 26, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Okay learn how to scale feats, Momo's attack can't split the moon, but damages naruto using a higher defensive ability


Naruto doesn't work like Dragon ball. If War arc Sakura punched a tree, that would obliterate the tree. If war arc Kakashi raikiri'd the same tree, it would not be knocked down, just cutting a hole through it. Does that mean that Sakura's punches are all far stronger than Kakashi's raikiri? no. That means more destructive force. Kakashi's attack still has more ATTACK POTENCY. Another thing you need to calculate. If we were going purely by destructive force, then the 3rd Raikage and Kakashi are weaker attackers than Konohamaru


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 26, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> t could mean... he thinks Naruto could be a greater Hokage. That's it. This author wasn't reluctant to outright compare battle fighting capabilities.


right right... Maybe Tobirama watched him fight, and said "Man this guy would nail some paperwork!" To himself over and over. That's a possibility I guess...



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I agree, but last time I was told we should just go by the guidebook. Depends how you wanna play it.


No real contradiction there.
He is always Rikudo powered. He still just has different modes though.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Wipe all the branches of a chakra absorbing tree with a chakra shuriken. This is what Naruto must do whilst fighting Juubito?


yes just like it absorbed Sasuke's sword!! Or drained Orochimaru when he grabbed it! Or Enma! Or absorbed Tobirama's Suiton! Exactly.

Oh. Wait.....


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 26, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> right right... Maybe Tobirama watched him fight, and said "Man this guy would nail some paperwork!" To himself over and over. That's a possibility I guess...




Defo wasn't talking about battle power. 



> No real contradiction there.
> He is always Rikudo powered. He still just has different modes though.



But apparently it is just KCM-SM, that's it. Rikudou chakra is when Naruto uses SPSM hence it is part of the Six Paths power. Like I said, I agree, except if we want to strictly go by the guidebook, it is what it is.




> yes just like it absorbed Sasuke's sword!! Or drained Orochimaru when he grabbed it! Or Enma! Or absorbed Tobirama's Suiton! Exactly.
> 
> Oh. Wait.....



You don't understand much of the points do you?

The Shinju roots attacking absorb the chakra, the same ones everyone was avoiding and the same ones Naruto and Sasuke didn't have to deal with because everyone else was. Of course, I guess you probably think the Shinju can't replace what is lost. 

And if Obito's controlling it, Naruto/Toneri aren't going to last, especially if they're facing it and Jubito at the same time.

Tell me you think Toneri beats the Shinju, go on.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 26, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Defo wasn't talking about battle power.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Shinju took Madara from being blitzed by Naruto to being far stronger than Naruto. He was fully confident that he would win against both Naruto and Sasuke just before Zetsu stabbed him.


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## Come off it (Nov 26, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Naruto doesn't work like Dragon ball. If War arc Sakura punched a tree, that would obliterate the tree. If war arc Kakashi raikiri'd the same tree, it would not be knocked down, just cutting a hole through it. Does that mean that Sakura's punches are all far stronger than Kakashi's raikiri? no. That means more destructive force. Kakashi's attack still has more ATTACK POTENCY. Another thing you need to calculate. If we were going purely by destructive force, then the 3rd Raikage and Kakashi are weaker attackers than Konohamaru



Yes i know its not like dragon ball but if one person (Toneri) uses there best attack on another person (TL Naruto) who isn't using their full power, not even close and doesn't hurt them whilst that person isn't even blocking; then comes along another individual (Momo) and he uses an attack at full power and damages the same individual (Naruto)who is older and stronger using his Full power and this time he's actually blocking then it dictates that Momo's attack is stronger in the PoC area than Toneri's but Toneri's has a far greater AOE. 

Scale this to Juubito and i fail to see Naruto containing a juubidama, let alone 4. Meaning Toneri would also have zero response to this, if toneri attacked when juubito uses a juubidama; toneri's attack would get obliterated and along with hiimself, flying off into the distance and then he's dead when it explodes. As long as juubito ads NE to it of course.


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## Come off it (Nov 26, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> How did you decide this? Both of those attacks have better feats than what we see the Jūbi actually accomplish.


Like what, not damaging a non blocking naruto? or damaging a naruto that is blocking. So you believe if Juubito used 4 Juubidama's at once naruto could contain them like he did momo's, or just tank them on the head and get up like toneri's? Or just use a rasengan and completely overwhelm them.


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## Come off it (Nov 26, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Uh... yes...


 Like what, name me things you think Naruto did in which juubito can't match.


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## Ultrafragor (Nov 26, 2017)

The Naruto that beat Toneri is stronger than the Naruto+Sasuke that beat Obito.

Toneri is stronger.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 26, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Like what, not damaging a non blocking naruto? or damaging a naruto that is blocking. So you believe if Juubito used 4 Juubidama's at once naruto could contain them like he did momo's, or just tank them on the head and get up like toneri's? Or just use a rasengan and completely overwhelm them.


Well, cutting the moon in half > being generally unquantifiable.


Come off it said:


> Like what, name me things you think Naruto did in which juubito can't match.


Like anything, mostly.


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 26, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Defo wasn't talking about battle power.


Sure sure anything but you admitting wrong. It's coo. Concession accepted.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> But apparently it is just KCM-SM, that's it. Rikudou chakra is when Naruto uses SPSM hence it is part of the Six Paths power. Like I said, I agree, except if we want to strictly go by the guidebook, it is what it is.


Again nothing says he does not have Rikudo powers though, and it shows because he flies even in base.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You don't understand much of the points do you?
> 
> The Shinju roots attacking absorb the chakra, the same ones everyone was avoiding and the same ones Naruto and Sasuke didn't have to deal with because everyone else was. Of course, I guess you probably think the Shinju can't replace what is lost.
> 
> ...


1) I understand clearly, my friend.
You pretended that the tree had a history of absorbing attack or something when feats say otherwise. 
Chakra attacks have worked before.

2)The roots go bye bye even with one if his base Rasenshruiken. Oh they might come back ? Guess he uses a second One? 

3)Has a laser blade of TSB that can cut the Moon = can't cut down a tree? 

Make that make sense, from a manga standpoint.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 27, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> The Shinju took Madara from being blitzed by Naruto to being far stronger than Naruto. He was fully confident that he would win against both Naruto and Sasuke just before Zetsu stabbed him.



I know, but apparently Hi no Ishi thinks the Shinju can lose to Toneri... I want to see him claim it.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Sure sure anything but you admitting wrong. It's coo. Concession accepted.
> 
> 
> Again nothing says he does not have Rikudo powers though, and it shows because he flies even in base.
> ...



Tell me you think Toneri can beat the Shinju. Also, while you're at it, please tell me you think Naruto has more reserves than the Shinju. 

You can't debate really well either it seems. Your flops don't equate to a concession of the other party.

Flight is a SPSM thing. Personally, I think he should... but if we're forced to go by the guidebook, we have to cap him to KCM-SM.


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 27, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tell me you think Toneri can beat the Shinju. Also, while you're at it, please tell me you think Naruto has more reserves than the Shinju.


When the tree gets bigger than the Moon you might have a point. 


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You can't debate really well either it seems. Your flops don't equat


Saying that Tobirama wasn't talking about battle power while watching a fight, and then having no evidence of it is it's own concession. Prove he meant something else or drop it lol. Simple.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Flight is a SPSM thing. Personally, I think he should... but if we're forced to go by the guidebook, we have to cap him to KCM-SM.


 believe well since he was flying that kinda shuts that down then right? You can't just pretend it was not happening.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 27, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> When the tree gets bigger than the Moon you might have a point.




Is that a yes to both points? 



> Saying that Tobirama wasn't talking about battle power while watching a fight, and then having no evidence of it is it's own concession. Prove he meant something else or drop it lol. Simple.



The onus is on you. Though, you decided to pick something impossible to prove. 



> believe well since he was flying that kinda shuts that down then right? You can't just pretend it was not happening.



But apparently he was using KCM-SM... we gotta go by the guidebook alone, right?


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 27, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Is that a yes to both points?


clearly not as the tree isn't bigger than the Moon lol



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The onus is on you. Though, you decided to pick something impossible to prove.


Nope. It's pretty easy.
He was talking about it while watching Naruto fight. He had never seen him do anything else so there is simply not a reason to think he meant something else.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> But apparently he was using KCM-SM... we gotta go by the guidebook alone, right?


 why do you keep saying that like i said it at some point Lol. Just another straw man?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 27, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> clearly not as the tree isn't bigger than the Moon lol



Is it a yes tho. 




> Nope. It's pretty easy.
> He was talking about it while watching Naruto fight. He had never seen him do anything else so there is simply not a reason to think he meant something else.



And you somehow got "he's not _that _inferior to Hashirama". I guess it is too much to assume that he meant what he said. 



> why do you keep saying that like i said it at some point Lol. Just another straw man?



Learn what a strawman is.

I agree, we should consider it a Six Paths boost, seeing as Naruto got a new seal since he died and all... but when I purported the same point you did. I was told we should ignore all that jazz and just go by the guide book.


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 27, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Is it a yes tho.


are you trolling? The moon is clearly bigger than the tree.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> And you somehow got "he's not _that _inferior to Hashirama". I guess it is too much to assume that he meant what he said.


Yes. He watched them fight and thought Naruto was just like fighting alongside his brother at one point and thought he might be a better Hokage later also during the fight. I am going with what happened in the manga.  And I do think he meant what he said 

You think he meant that in the abstract lol.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Learn what a strawman is.
> 
> I agree, we should consider it a Six Paths boost, seeing as Naruto got a new seal since he died and all... but when I purported the same point you did. I was told we should ignore all that jazz and just go by the guide book.


and yet you keep saying it to me as if I said it lol.


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## Come off it (Nov 27, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Well, cutting the moon in half > being generally unquantifiable.
> 
> Like anything, mostly.


You completely dodged any of my questions. So do you believe Naruto can contain 4 Juubidama's like what he did to momo's BB attack and still be alive?
Secondly do you believe TL Naruto can take 4 juubidama's to the head in KCSM1 without blocking and come off unscathed?

Again tell me some things Naruto can do that juubito can't?


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## Come off it (Nov 27, 2017)

Ultrafragor said:


> The Naruto that beat Toneri is stronger than the Naruto+Sasuke that beat Obito.
> 
> Toneri is stronger.


No he isn't, Naruto+sasuke's combo was stronger than KCSM1 Naruto in TL. They've got near PS level damage. Naruto without his Kurama avatar isn't matching this in strength. Naruto's OR that attacks toneri's TSO didn't do much whereas Naruto and Sasuke's combo destroyed the TSO's pretty comfortably. Naruto can't block a PS sword IMO without using his Kurama avatar.


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## Come off it (Nov 27, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Yes. He watched them fight and thought Naruto was just like fighting alongside his brother at one point and thought he might be a better Hokage later also during the fight. I am going with what happened in the manga.  And I do think he meant what he said



Yes but hashirama only got serious against VOTE madara. Nobody else would've pushed him that far to use SS, tobirama most likely wouldn't have known hashi's full power. BSM Naruto at this point is strong but he isn't beating PS let alone PS+Full Kurama. SM is not equal to PS+50%Kurama.

If you were saying Naruto could come close to WG then yes i'd agree with you, but SMSS i can't see him doing anything to stop that.


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## Ultrafragor (Nov 27, 2017)

Come off it said:


> No he isn't, Naruto+sasuke's combo was stronger than KCSM1 Naruto in TL. They've got near PS level damage. Naruto without his Kurama avatar isn't matching this in strength. Naruto's OR that attacks toneri's TSO didn't do much whereas Naruto and Sasuke's combo destroyed the TSO's pretty comfortably. Naruto can't block a PS sword IMO without using his Kurama avatar.



100% Kurama, Rikudo chakra, Sage Mode Naruto is more than anything 50% Kurama, BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke could hope to add up to.


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## Mar55 (Nov 27, 2017)

Come off it said:


> You completely dodged any of my questions.


I didn't dodge them, my answer also answers them.


Come off it said:


> So do you believe Naruto can contain 4 Juubidama's like what he did to momo's BB attack and still be alive?


Following the logic of Momo's TBB > Toneri's beam, sure. Discounting their size, of course.


Come off it said:


> Secondly do you believe TL Naruto can take 4 juubidama's to the head in KCSM1 without blocking and come off unscathed?


Considering they don't have feats to imply they're > Toneri's beam, don't see why not.


Come off it said:


> Again tell me some things Naruto can do that juubito can't?


Beat Toneri.


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## Come off it (Nov 27, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> I didn't dodge them, my answer also answers them.
> 
> Following the logic of Momo's TBB > Toneri's beam, sure. Discounting their size, of course.
> 
> ...





Ultrafragor said:


> 100% Kurama, Rikudo chakra, Sage Mode Naruto is more than anything 50% Kurama, BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke could hope to add up to.


Yes i'm not saying Naruto and EMS Sasuke are stronger than TL Naruto with full power, but they are stronger than TL Naruto that CQC Toneri, who wasn't using full power.


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## Mar55 (Nov 27, 2017)

Come off it said:


> but they are stronger than TL Naruto that CQC Toneri, who wasn't using full power.


Except by direct feats, no they're not. That doesn't even make any sense.


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## Come off it (Nov 27, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> I didn't dodge them, my answer also answers them.
> 
> Following the logic of Momo's TBB > Toneri's beam, sure. Discounting their size, of course.
> 
> ...


Again cut's the moon in half and deals zero damage. Big AOE, low attack on PoC. Gets pushed back by a rasengan, Not happening to a juubidama, let alone 4 imo, i just can't see it happening. 

Juubito can beat toneri since toneri has nothing in response to juubidama. He can't block that with NE added. Obito can recover from any of toneri's attacks, toneri can't do this since he doesn't have the juubi. Toneri gets hit once in the face and he loses.


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## Come off it (Nov 27, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Except by direct feats, no they're not. That doesn't even make any sense.


So Naruto and sasuke blasting through TSO's with ease is not better than Naruto's OR that hit toneri's TSO's. The same rasengan that hit toneri when he blocked and smashed him through his TSO's? The combo they used hits way harder than naruto can, if toneri goes to block this then he'll get annihilated. His moon splitter doesn't hit that hard like his other attacks. Silver wheel rebirth did nothing to sai and them. Why would their combo sword not destroy the moon splitter since its made of TSO?


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## Ultrafragor (Nov 27, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Yes i'm not saying Naruto and EMS Sasuke are stronger than TL Naruto with full power, but they are stronger than TL Naruto that CQC Toneri, who wasn't using full power.



You think a normal punch did more damage than a Rikudo, Bijuu Mode, Sage Mode Rasengan?

No, Naruto put his whole kyuubi cloak chakra into his fist to stop that punch.

Otherwise, why wasn't Toneri solo'd any of the numerous times they physically clashed before moving on to using jutsu on each other?


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## Come off it (Nov 27, 2017)

Ultrafragor said:


> You think a normal punch did more damage than a Rikudo, Bijuu Mode, Sage Mode Rasengan?
> 
> No, Naruto put his whole kyuubi cloak chakra into his fist to stop that punch.
> 
> Otherwise, why wasn't Toneri solo'd any of the numerous times they physically clashed before moving on to using jutsu on each other?


I know its not a normal punch, i know naruto put all his Kyuubi cloak chakra into it but he didn't use all of Kurama's power, not even close to it. Naruto couldn't penetrate TSO's with his combo's, Naruto+Sasuke destroyed it with ease, Toneri attacked Naruto with Golden wheel rebirth again(TSO powered), Naruto puts all his power into his hand because he already knows his normal rasengan's can't break TSO's, this allows him to OP the attack. Naruto and Sasuke can already break this TSO's powered attack with their combo. This is not a one time only thing for them, they can do it as long as they have enough chakra. Also baring in mind Naruto and Sasuke are way down on chakra at this point.


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## Ultrafragor (Nov 27, 2017)

Come off it said:


> I know its not a normal punch, i know naruto put all his Kyuubi cloak chakra into it but he didn't use all of Kurama's power, not even close to it. Naruto couldn't penetrate TSO's with his combo's, Naruto+Sasuke destroyed it with ease, Toneri attacked Naruto with Golden wheel rebirth again(TSO powered), Naruto puts all his power into his hand because he already knows his normal rasengan's can't break TSO's, this allows him to OP the attack. Naruto and Sasuke can already break this TSO's powered attack with their combo. This is not a one time only thing for them, they can do it as long as they have enough chakra. Also baring in mind Naruto and Sasuke are way down on chakra at this point.



all TSB aren't created equal


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 27, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Yes but hashirama only got serious against VOTE madara. Nobody else would've pushed him that far to use SS, tobirama most likely wouldn't have known hashi's full power. BSM Naruto at this point is strong but he isn't beating PS let alone PS+Full Kurama. SM is not equal to PS+50%Kurama.
> 
> If you were saying Naruto could come close to WG then yes i'd agree with you, but SMSS i can't see him doing anything to stop that.


1) that is neither stated nor suggested in the manga.

2) who do to You think Hashirama trained with lol.  Even Madara said he and Tobirama were close in power in life. 

3)It's Naruto's chakra and skill, Kurama's chakra, and sage mode. Even the non SM version was tanking Jubii lasers and beating down the tailed beast while holding back.
The SM one could fight an improved version of a guy Hashirama said was to strong for him.


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## Mar55 (Nov 27, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Again cut's the moon in half and deals zero damage.


To Naruto, a noted durability monster.


Come off it said:


> Big AOE, low attack on PoC.


Not based on any actual evidence, just that Naruto was durable enough not to be harmed. Which is the most backwards logic around. To even split the moon requires a certain level of energy, so this isn't really possible.


Come off it said:


> Gets pushed back by a rasengan


This didn't happen, he focused his cloak and pushed through it.


Come off it said:


> Not happening to a juubidama, let alone 4 imo, i just can't see it happening.


Well, they're bombs not a beam, so that'd be difficult anyway. However, without feats saying so, I don't see them harming Naruto. That's really all that matters.


Come off it said:


> Juubito can beat toneri since toneri has nothing in response to juubidama.


Literally makes no sense. Obito blocked those with his TSB shield, why wouldn't Toneri do the exact same? Or just flat out overpower them, considering moon splitter > 4 country level bombs.


Come off it said:


> He can't block that with NE added.


You mean Obito? Because his TSB were broken by a single NE TBB and BE Susano'o Arrow, unless you think they're stronger than 4 Jūbi bombs...


Come off it said:


> Obito can recover from any of toneri's attacks, toneri can't do this since he doesn't have the juubi.


Obito doesn't have the durability to, nor the tested healing. His best isn't enough to imply he'll regenerate after being blasted to nothing.


Come off it said:


> Toneri gets hit once in the face and he loses.


Are you implying Obito is physically stronger than a man that overpowered a moon splitter with the same punch he used on Toneri?


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## Come off it (Nov 27, 2017)

Ultrafragor said:


> all TSB aren't created equal


 Are they not? Aside from kaguya every other TSB has a similar size and properties. It was never stated anywhere that they are different.


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## Mar55 (Nov 27, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Are they not? Aside from kaguya every other TSB has a similar size and properties. It was never stated anywhere that they are different.


He's saying they have differing feats.


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## Come off it (Nov 27, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) that is neither stated nor suggested in the manga.
> 
> 2) who do to You think Hashirama trained with lol.  Even Madara said he and Tobirama were close in power in life.
> 
> ...


Yes Hashi would've trained with tobirama, but as you said if madara and Tobirama are similar in strength then this would still apply to tobirama not seeing hashi's full power, since Hashi can beat mads with WG which is a fairly even fight. SS is complete overkill and madara hadn't seen this before until he used Kurama with his PS.

Yes but his chakra and skill doesn't make up for a PS + 50% kurama difference. Yes but edo hashi full power is SMWG since that what he responded when Madara went PS, why not just use SMSS and annihilate madara instantly.


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## Alita (Nov 27, 2017)

This is hilarious. Toneri stomps juubito easily. He outclasses him in every fighting stat by a lot. 

The juubito wank has got to stop.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 28, 2017)

Alita54 said:


> This is hilarious. Toneri stomps juubito easily. He outclasses him in every fighting stat by a lot.
> 
> The juubito wank has got to stop.


It's more like this weird, backwards logic Toneri downplay.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 28, 2017)

Ultrafragor said:


> The Naruto that beat Toneri is stronger than the Naruto+Sasuke that beat Obito.
> 
> Toneri is stronger.


They didn't beat Obito...


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 28, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> It's more like this weird, backwards logic Toneri downplay.


ok, 


Alita54 said:


> This is hilarious. Toneri stomps juubito easily. He outclasses him in every fighting stat by a lot.
> 
> The juubito wank has got to stop.


What evidence do you have here that would support that claim? I'm still on the side with "no win because we have no way to scale those two."

Obito stomped weaklings, Toneri got beaten by a god, Toneri would stomp the weaklings, Obito would lose to the god, so neither is a good scaler. Juubito never went all out, so we cannot compare him to Toneri's all out. that would be stupid.

Although i personally favour Obito, not in the fight, just as a character.

And @Mar55, @Hi no Ishi, Come off It was the same guy saying that Nagato and Hashirama would each beat Juubito. Don't argue with him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 28, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I know, but apparently Hi no Ishi thinks the Shinju can lose to Toneri... I want to see him claim it.


A few guys also think Toneri would win against Rinne-Sharingan Juubidara so.


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 28, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Yes Hashi would've trained with tobirama, but as you said if madara and Tobirama are similar in strength then this would still apply to tobirama not seeing hashi's full power, since Hashi can beat mads with WG which is a fairly even fight. SS is complete overkill and madara hadn't seen this before until he used Kurama with his PS.
> 
> Yes but his chakra and skill doesn't make up for a PS + 50% kurama difference. Yes but edo hashi full power is SMWG since that what he responded when Madara went PS, why not just use SMSS and annihilate madara instantly.


So we should ignore feats and statements because of your conjecture?


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## Mar55 (Nov 28, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> And @Mar55, @Hi no Ishi, Come off It was the same guy saying that Nagato and Hashirama would each beat Juubito. Don't argue with him.


Yeah, he seemed a bit off anyway. Thanks for the confirmation.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 28, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> So we should ignore feats and statements because of your conjecture?


You're running on the floor i had just put a wet floor sign on

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 28, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> are you trolling? The moon is clearly bigger than the tree.




Do you think Naruto has more reserves than the Shinju and that Toneri can defeat the Shinju? 



> Yes. He watched them fight and thought Naruto was just like fighting alongside his brother at one point and thought he might be a better Hokage later also during the fight. I am going with what happened in the manga.  And I do think he meant what he said



He said Naruto could be a better Hokage... and you took from that Hashirama won't stomp him. 



> You think he meant that in the abstract lol.
> and yet you keep saying it to me as if I said it lol.



Don't worry about it... the guy who said it knows who he is.


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## genii96 (Nov 28, 2017)

Obito brings forth the juubi and kills him

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 28, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Do you think Naruto has more reserves than the Shinju and that Toneri can defeat the Shinju?


1) who knows

2) of course he can.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He said Naruto could be a better Hokage... and you took from that Hashirama won't stomp him.


Sure maybe he said he was reminded of fighting alongside his brother because of Hashirama's mean paperwork and academy teaching skills!
And when he was watching them fight he thought Naruto might be a better Hokage because of his sweet yellow coat. 
Sure Munboy. 

I'll go with the context of what was happening over your bias though if you don't mind.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Don't worry about it... the guy who said it knows who he is.


 talk to them then instead of just baiting then ya troll!

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Come off it (Nov 28, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> So we should ignore feats and statements because of your conjecture?


What so hashirama/Tobirama's sparring would result in hashi using SMSS. Okay man.

Naruto's SM adds a power buff of a PS+50% Kurama. Okay man we'll go with your statement on that one. He's got skill, yeah but he gets blown out the water by this.


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## Come off it (Nov 28, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> ok,
> 
> What evidence do you have here that would support that claim? I'm still on the side with "no win because we have no way to scale those two."
> 
> ...


Again i said Prime Nagato will be a draw with Juubito because they can't hurt each other. Preta path negates all of obito's attacks. He can fly out of the Barrier if needs be or technically just preta path through it to dodge quadra bijuudama. Nagato can't penetrate TSO's with his attacks therefore resulting in a draw.

Yes Prime Hashi can't beat juubito but also juubito can beat Prime Hashi. If Naruto and Sasuke together struggle to replicate PS damage then a WG is on par with a PS then it dictates hashi's WG is on par with this. Then you add SM+WG you have something vastly superior to N+S combo that annihilated Juubito's TSO's, How can juubito block this? How's he going to regenerate if his chakra is getting suppressed afterwards. he has to respond with juubidama, its the only thing he can use to defeat hashi before he gets put down, So yes juubito can win but hashi can also win. Hashi can't tank juubidama but without juubidama juubito can't beat/Block SMWG let alone SMSS.

Says don't argue with me but aren't you the one who said if the rinnegan is so OP then how did Naruto beat pain. Honestly lost for words on that one. The problem with you is that you don't read what people put for some reason. You even stated if jiraiya can beat one pain that is comparable to juubito and juubito is stronger than hashi, you can't be saying jiraiya is near hashi??? like WTF are you going on about. Who stated one pain is near juubito level?????? Nobody you just can't read.


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## Come off it (Nov 28, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Yeah, he seemed a bit off anyway. Thanks for the confirmation.


Talks about being off, Says the guy who thinks Naruto can Tank 4 Juubidama's at once without blocking or even with blocking. Okay man.

So naruto can beat PS without his kurama Avatar, Yes or No?

IMO he gets obliterated by this, he literally can't even damage it. That dictates PS>Toneri since he can beat Toneri without Kurama. Wait but he split the moon. Large AOE low PoC power. Naruto split the shinju but grazed madara, Sasuke split madara in half. Naruto AOE>>>>>>>>Sasuke, Sasuke PoC power>>>>>>>>>Naruto PoC Power. Just because the AOE is big doesn't mean the PoC power is. Momo's BB did more damage to Naruto than Toneri's GWR when Naruto was superior in strength/Defemse to his TL Naruto counterpart. That mean's One of Momo's BB would obliterate the moon splitter. It can split the moon but it can't beat momo's attack. No where near as impressive when it hits a chakra construct, why because it attack on PoC is not that strong. 

IMO since we all really have not much to go off NE+Juubidama is stronger than both. If juubito uses one of these i don't think Toneri can block this. That's why i can't see him winning.


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## Mar55 (Nov 28, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Talks about being off, Says the guy who thinks Naruto can Tank 4 Juubidama's at once without blocking or even with blocking. Okay man.


Well, they aren't > moon splitter, so obviously.


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 28, 2017)

Come off it said:


> What so hashirama/Tobirama's sparring would result in hashi using SMSS. Okay man.


Maybe the first time he ever tested it out was on Madara, but that's unstated and sounds silly.


Come off it said:


> Naruto's SM adds a power buff of a PS+50% Kurama. Okay man we'll go with your statement on that one. He's got skill, yeah but he gets blown out the water by this.


 as I said before it's more than just sage mode.


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## Come off it (Nov 28, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Well, they aren't > moon splitter, so obviously.


Yeah but neither is momo's and he damaged Naruto more than toneri.


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## Come off it (Nov 28, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Maybe the first time he ever tested it out was on Madara, but that's unstated and sounds silly.
> as I said before it's more than just sage mode.


I would say Tobirama wouldn't know hashi's maximum strength, chakra quantities yes but strength i'm not sure. I'm struggling to see where he'd use SMSS if not against madara at VOTE. PS+Kurama it took for hashi to use this. 

I'd say BSM is near PS level, maybe slightly weaker. no where near Prime hashi imo.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 28, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Naruto's SM adds a power buff of a PS


OH MY GOD KILL ME NOW


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 28, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Well, they aren't > moon splitter, so obviously.


4 Juubidamas are multicontinent level, so not too far off the moon.

keep in mind, Toneri did not destroy the moon, only cut it in half. That is a significantly weaker feat

But the Juubi blasts are not concentrated. they will not have the same offensive power as something that is sharp like Toneri's attack.


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## Come off it (Nov 29, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> OH MY GOD KILL ME NOW


Again doesn't read context, as you can clearly see that Hi no Ishi is stating BSM Naruto is near Prime SM Hashi. So i said SM doesn't equate to PS+50%. Then he posted, so I responded with the statement you put put this response to. Which if you can read and understand context you can see my comment is sarcasm. But because you can't read this is difficult for yourself.

You also can't understand how powerful DR are and why in a 1vs1 it is near impossible to win against someone with them if you can't nullify preta path.



Nuttynutdude said:


> 4 Juubidamas are multicontinent level, so not too far off the moon.
> 
> keep in mind, Toneri did not destroy the moon, only cut it in half. That is a significantly weaker feat
> 
> But the Juubi blasts are not concentrated. they will not have the same offensive power as something that is sharp like Toneri's attack.



Yeah but would you say momo's attack hits harder than a Juubidama? Yes it does say WOULD YOU SAY MOMO's ATTACK HIT HARDER THAN A JUUBIDAMA? Can you read what i'm saying in context of this debate.

Also it depends on what continents you are speaking of because the moon is only 1 - 1 1/2 continents in size


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## Doc Mindstorm (Nov 29, 2017)

Calculating or comparing chakra output of Moon cutter to anything is turbid water when Kumo got enough chakra stored to blow whole moon away.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 29, 2017)

Come off it said:


> I would say Tobirama wouldn't know hashi's maximum strength, chakra quantities yes but strength i'm not sure. I'm struggling to see where he'd use SMSS if not against madara at VOTE. PS+Kurama it took for hashi to use this.


Yamato was not in a life or death battle with Naruto but knew how strong Rasenshruiken was.
Most people train with jutsu before they are confidant enough to use it in battle.
Hell Minato was a perfect sage and did not think his SM was battle ready.

There are lots of reasons to know goes strong your brother is. 

Moreover what are the chances Kishimoto made him repeatedly relate Naruto and Hashirama's fighting abilities for no damn reason,
 AND thought up all this "he has no idea how strong the guy he is with every day of his life really is!" Nonsense as well, but just failed to add it to the manga for some reason?
And why?



Come off it said:


> I'd say BSM is near PS level, maybe slightly weaker. no where near Prime hashi imo.


Again, BSM Naruto is able to lead the fight against a guy stronger than Hashirama, faster than Minato and can fly and do it for some time without major injuries.
Even the drop slam that broke the avatar did not take him out of Sage Mode. He just got back up and reentered the avatar even harder. 

They are not far apart in power by feats and statements.


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## Arles Celes (Nov 29, 2017)

Juubito got 2 potential advantages.

1. Great regen which allowed him to survive a PS slash and regenerated his back right away after a SM rasengan. 

2. One solid hit managed to "turn off" Tenseigan mode and the Tenseigan itself while it required taking the bijuus away from Juubito to "turn off" his own super mode. 

Juubito can take hits and keep going especially with his determinator attitude and will of Rin while one solid hit on Toneri was enough for Naruto to defeat him.


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## Come off it (Nov 29, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Yamato was not in a life or death battle with Naruto but knew how strong Rasenshruiken was.
> Most people train with jutsu before they are confidant enough to use it in battle.
> Hell Minato was a perfect sage and did not think his SM was battle ready.


Yes i agree with you that most people train their abilities by sparring with other people until the are confident to use it in battle. However although what you said about Yamato is true, it still doesn't explain someone using something so overwhelming powerful against someone who has zero chance of blocking it or combating it. For example Naruto wouldn't use KCM2+SPSM against Adult Konohamaru even if Konohamaru had SM because neither would gain any type of training because its a one shot. 


Hi no Ishi said:


> There are lots of reasons to know goes strong your brother is.
> 
> Moreover what are the chances Kishimoto made him repeatedly relate Naruto and Hashirama's fighting abilities for no damn reason,
> AND thought up all this "he has no idea how strong the guy he is with every day of his life really is!" Nonsense as well, but just failed to add it to the manga for some reason?
> And why?


No Tobirama initially says he's like hashi because of SM, not power. Then the next time he says that he might become better than his brother. Implying that he's not better at that current point. Also you have to remember is Naruto's half of Kurama has almost no chakra left so he gets it from his other half. This means that without the other half Naruto wouldn't be able to achieve the current power he was showing. 

Again complete OPing results in zero training for both parties. Let's be honest where are they training for the showing of SMSS. 



Hi no Ishi said:


> Again, BSM Naruto is able to lead the fight against a guy stronger than Hashirama, faster than Minato and can fly and do it for some time without major injuries.
> Even the drop slam that broke the avatar did not take him out of Sage Mode. He just got back up and reentered the avatar even harder.
> 
> They are not far apart in power by feats and statements.


I'd hardly say it was Naruto, Minato made the rasengan, naruto added senjutsu, tobirama teleported them. Then Sasuke's susano had weaker senjutsu and could still damage TSO's with Naruto being there as well. Naruto is the main character so yeah i'd assume he'd take the lead. Naruto took the lead because he's the only one with SM to fight juubito. Hashi was busy and Kishi hadn't thought of Minato's SM. Also again Naruto is pretty much using full Kurama chakra here because again he gets more chakra from Minato/Kurama. So his already depleted chakra which got replaced got drained from him then replaced again. BSM Naruto 50% Kurama could not achieve this feat. 

The drop slam bit doesn't really give much to this argument becuase sasuke also got up and there is no way sasuke is near a PS level let alone SMSS level.

BSM 100% Kurama Naruto would be way closer but he'd still be quite short of hashi's full power, There isn't no way adding SM makes up for PS. Which even that combo got annihilated in 30 seconds.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 29, 2017)

Come off it said:


> You also can't understand how powerful DR are and why in a 1vs1 it is near impossible to win against someone with them if you can't nullify preta path.


Annnddd here we go i'm gonna take my leave.


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## Come off it (Nov 29, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Annnddd here we go i'm gonna take my leave.


Again you have zero points against this, so no wonder you are taking your leave.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 29, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Again you have zero points against this, so no wonder you are taking your leave.


aaahhh goooo-bye!


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## Come off it (Nov 29, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> aaahhh goooo-bye!


No problem.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 30, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> The tired assed Alliance could keep the branches down and even base TL Naruto has shown better firepower than them lol.
> This is easy Munboy.




So you're saying Naruto can outlast the Shinju and defeat it. 



> Hey you can believe he was looking somewhere else if you want to. I'm ok with that.





> And yes trolling as in you repeatedly saying things to me meant for another person, instead of debating them.
> Ya Troll.
> 
> He did and the reasons why are clear as day.



Or Tobirama meant what he said and because you don't like Hashirama > pre-SPSM Naruto, you're looking for an excuse to make Naruto somewhat match-able. That's what it comes across as. Makes little sense when you consider Hashirama took down a stronger Kurama than Naruto had used by Madara who was using Susanoo to buff it. 

The manga can imply things... this isn't one of those times. It may be a case where you have to accept that BSM Naruto just wasn't comparable to Hashirama's power.


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## Come off it (Nov 30, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So you're saying Naruto can outlast the Shinju and defeat it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Also Naruto is using Kurama's second half to power him after the first half couldn't continue the fight, this happens several times throughout the juubito fight. Tobirama compares Naruto to his brother because of SM, then he compares him when he uses the other half of Kurama's chakra, Still he says he might become better. There is no way BSM Naruto 100% Kurama is stronger than PS + 100% Kurama. SM does not equate to PS strength. Even SPSM on its own falls way short of PS in power. Even that combo of madara's which is still superior to Naruto's got stomped in 30 seconds by SMSS. Only SPSM NAruto can fight hashi and win. Every other version gets annihilated.


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## Trojan (Nov 30, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Ya Troll.


took you long enough to figure that out. 
u r wasting your time.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 30, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Also Naruto is using Kurama's second half to power him after the first half couldn't continue the fight, this happens several times throughout the juubito fight. Tobirama compares Naruto to his brother because of SM, then he compares him when he uses the other half of Kurama's chakra, Still he says he might become better. There is no way BSM Naruto 100% Kurama is stronger than PS + 100% Kurama. SM does not equate to PS strength. Even SPSM on its own falls way short of PS in power. Even that combo of madara's which is still superior to Naruto's got stomped in 30 seconds by SMSS. Only SPSM NAruto can fight hashi and win. Every other version gets annihilated.


"There is no way" is not an argument, it's a preconceived notion.



Come off it said:


> Even SPSM on its own falls way short of PS in power


This is clearly not true from feats, and another preconceived notion.

You see Rinne PS get flomped by Kaguya and see Naruto take the same attacks with no Avatar and do better. Yet, you still say this.

You see Naruto fight someone stronger than Hashirama and survive but he MUST be way weaker. As if that makes sense. 
Could Konohamaru also have done well there or something?

Tobirama watches Naruto notice the effect of Senjutsu, and use it in sync with Tobirama to land a blow, and was impressed. That's why he mentioned it, not just because he has SM which is impressive on it own.
He says Naruto might be a better Hokage when he sees BSM Naruto putting up a fight against someone stronger than his brother.
But you read that and got that Kishimoto was trying to say they are super far apart in power? How?

Because of your own preconceived notions of what each power boost does you ignore feats, statements and context?

Edit: don't be a Munboy. Either post where I said he beats Hashirama in a one on one or don't say it again please.


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## Come off it (Nov 30, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> "There is no way" is not an argument, it's a preconceived notion.



Well i gave you the fact that BSM Naruto was out of power and relied on the other half of Kurama to power him up in which then Tobirama made a comment about him getting near his brother. You've said nothing in response to this because you know without the other half of Kurama Naruto is not in the same league as the Naruto shown fighting Juubito. Naruto was only able to take the lead after this chakra was given to him.

But your point is clearly stating that SM from Naruto is superior to a PS+50% Kurama. Not the same strength but superior, since hashi is vastly superior to Madara's combo. Are you suggesting that sasuke's CM susano is near PS level or higher
since he was able to fight juubito as well. You seriously can't believe that.



Hi no Ishi said:


> This is clearly not true from feats, and another preconceived notion.
> 
> You see Rinne PS get flomped by Kaguya and see Naruto take the same attacks with no Avatar and do better. Yet, you still say this.


What are you referring to? When Sasuke's PS sword got absorbed? Hardly flomped because kaguya responded with absorption then she attacked naruto, then naruto attacked back. To completely different instances. Absorbing on the defensive is completely different then being aggressive and getting matched. You could say she absorbed it because she couldn't match it or it was just the best option to do. Mads doesn't absorb mei's attack but he does jinton why, because jinton is way more threatening. If Kaguya could've Oped the PS she would've, she only does this when she gets a power boost after her TSO appears.

This is proven when Kakashi's got attacked by a more powerful kaguya as outlined by Black Zetsu. Meaning beforehand she was weaker and she was only just able to penetrate the PS with her attack at that point.



Hi no Ishi said:


> You see Naruto fight someone stronger than Hashirama and survive but he MUST be way weaker. As if that makes sense.
> Could Konohamaru also have done well there or something?



Speaking of preconceived notions, Saying Edo Hashi near Prime Hashi in power?

No 1. Edo Hashi can't be compared to prime hashi. Edo hashi wants to fight juubito with everyone else as shown when he's repeatedly telling Mads he wants to join the fight. Mads goes full power straight away so hashi responds with full power which as an edo is SMWG, why would he not just use SMSS, wreck madara then join the fight?? So comparing edo Hashi to BSM Naruto may be a thing as naruto gained more power from the other half of Kurama as well. SMWG vs BSM Naruto with more chakra from Kurama's other half. Yes i'd say edo Hashi vs Naruto may be equal. But Prime Hashi with SMSS, zero chance. SMSS is in a completely different league.

2. Naruto is having help from everyone else. Unless you think he could've tanked them 4 juubidama's, or even landed an attack on juubito without FTG as an assistant. Or him just solely relying on his 50% Kurama and SM to pull this off. Or no help from Sasuke at all or anyone for that matter??? Standard BSM Naruto would've got fodderstomped if it wasn't for these add-ons. No i don't have that notion because Naruto fought him and survived, I have the notion because SM doesn't equate to PS + 50% Kurama not matter if its a pre-conceived notion or not.

3. Anyone with SM in Naruto can damage TSO's more then someone without it. 8 gates is inferior against TSO's then SM rasnegan is just because of its properties.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Tobirama watches Naruto notice the effect of Senjutsu, and use it in sync with Tobirama to land a blow, and was impressed. That's why he mentioned it, not just because he has SM which is impressive on it own.
> He says Naruto might be a better Hokage when he sees BSM Naruto putting up a fight against someone stronger than his brother.
> But you read that and got that Kishimoto was trying to say they are super far apart in power? How?


Pre-conceived notion that tobirama knows his brothers full power even know the strength difference is far too great. Hashi fought Mads and tobirama was there to see it the first time we see PS Vs WG. At which point does Hashi need to use SMSS aside from the valley of the end?

Would Konohamaru know Naruto's full power when sparring with him? Nope because its over in seconds, Naruto will tone his power down to fight Konohamaru evenly to train him, then naruto would go train by himself. His destructive capacity is far to high for anyone being near him aside from sasuke. But unlike Naruto and Sasuke, Hashi and Mads don't have that luxury and even if Mads was there he still isn't anywhere near Hashi in strength for him to use SMSS.

Again that's 100% Kurama + Naruto SM. Naruto can't claim this feat on his own. Tobirama isn't anywhere near hashi level. How would he even know his full power. There sparring isn't going to go all the way to SMSS level because its far too high for tobirama to even attempt to fight.

SMSS is in a completely different league to anything, You need SPS to combat this. PS, Kurama, WG are nothing in comparison. Adding SM to either is still fodder compared to this. It has a SMWG already apart of it meaning that should be enough to combat the others with SM let alone fighting the 1000 hands and the buddha prior.

You're the one that is ignoring feats and context, If PS is nothing in comparison, Full Kurama is nothing in comparison, together the only managed to destroy 500 hands at best, Half the strength of the hands,not including the SMWG+SMWB then how can you come to the conclusion that Naruto who has 50% Kurama + SM coming anywhere near. You have to look at why hashi says this and the power he responds with when fighting Mads. Or Juubito isn't as strong as people thought due to senjutsu as the TSO's are extremely weak against SM attacks which is why juubito is being pushed back.

You honestly think a giant rasengan that has SM added which is on equal power with TSO's is coming close to SMSS in terms of strength. TSO's get demolished. You honestly think if Prime VOTE Hashi got FTG back in against juubito and used SMSS against Juubito he'd be able to block this without juubidama's.


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## pickledpumpkins (Nov 30, 2017)

they should be relatively close. i will give it to obito since he has regen and we dont know if toreni has regen or not.


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 30, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Well i gave you the fact that BSM Naruto was out of power and relied on the other half of Kurama to power him up in which then Tobirama made a comment about him getting near his brother. You've said nothing in response to this because you know without the other half of Kurama Naruto is not in the same league as the Naruto shown fighting Juubito. Naruto was only able to take the lead after this chakra was given to him.


 If I have an 18 gallon tank and run out of gas and you give me 10 gallons do I now have 36 gallons in my tank?
Even grade school math says no lol.



Come off it said:


> But your point is clearly stating that SM from Naruto is superior to a PS+50% Kurama. Not the same strength but superior, since hashi is vastly superior to Madara's combo. Are you suggesting that sasuke's CM susano is near PS level or higher
> since he was able to fight juubito as well. You seriously can't believe that.


Not only have I corrected that lie several times I will again. I never even made that comparison but here goes.

Naruto with Kurama's power while in SM is not far from Hashirama in power Was, and is my position.

A) Madara and the BSM Naruto do not fight the same. 
One is a straightforward power user.
The other is Naruto.

Naruto has already carved through a buffed Madara's Susano'o ribcage with a base exausted clone in chapter 560 page 9 bottom left corner.
He already shat on Hashirama's signature jutsu when that same even more battered and exausted clone got a "tiny bit" of chakra from Kurama.
Dragon? Shat on with Shunshin, because he and Kyubii + Madara are a different fight.
Can deal with TBB'S? Hashirama's Golem disappears when that tailed beast bomb it caught went off. 
Non sage mode Naruto walked off a Jubii Dama to the grill, and can easily reform his Avatar when it was destroyed by JJ Obito. 
He needs SS to stay alive against Naruto because Naruto is a very different fighter than Madara.


Come off it said:


> sword got absorbed? Hardly flomped because kaguya responded with absorption then she attacked naruto, then naruto attacked back. To completely different instances. Absorbing on the defensive is completely different then being aggressive and getting matched. You could say she absorbed it because she couldn't match it or it was just the best option to do. Mads doesn't absorb mei's attack but he does jinton why, because jinton is way more threatening. If Kaguya could've Oped the PS she would've, she only does this when she gets a power boost after her TSO appears.


Did you see the sword being absorbed somewhere?

She blocked it and with four of the same punches she used on Naruto negged his Susano'o 



Come off it said:


> This is proven when Kakashi's got attacked by a more powerful kaguya as outlined by Black Zetsu. Meaning beforehand she was weaker and she was only just able to penetrate the PS with her attack at that point.


Just able? She completely busted it with 4(!) of the punches that she seconds later needs a crap ton of to handle non avatar Naruto, which does not knock him into base RSM either.



Come off it said:


> Speaking of preconceived notions, Saying Edo Hashi near Prime Hashi in


 Tobirama says flat out they were brought back nearly at full power. When he telling Orochimaru that he is leaving.

Is believing the manga really a preconceived notion lol?



Come off it said:


> No 1. Edo Hashi can't be compared to prime hashi. Edo hashi wants to fight juubito with everyone else as shown when he's repeatedly telling Mads he wants to join the fight. Mads goes full power straight away so hashi responds with full power which as an edo is SMWG, why would he not just use SMSS, wreck madara then join the fight?? So comparing edo Hashi to BSM Naruto may be a thing as naruto gained more power from the other half of Kurama as well. SMWG vs BSM Naruto with more chakra from Kurama's other half. Yes i'd say edo Hashi vs Naruto may be equal. But Prime Hashi with SMSS, zero chance. SMSS is in a completely different league.


A) Tobirama says your wrong. They are nearly full strength.

B) why would Hashirama destroy the alliance fodder and the area with SS, when he can and does beat a "beyond his prime" Madara without doing that?

C) again, faulty premise. Neither Minato or Naruto was at full.



Come off it said:


> 2. Naruto is having help from everyone else. Unless you think he could've tanked them 4 juubidama's, or even landed an attack on juubito without FTG as an assistant. Or him just solely relying on his 50% Kurama and SM to pull this off. Or no help from Sasuke at all or anyone for that matter??? Standard BSM Naruto would've got fodderstomped if it wasn't for these add-ons. No i don't have that notion because Naruto fought him and survived, I have the notion because SM doesn't equate to PS + 50% Kurama not matter if its a pre-conceived notion or not.


Hashirama can't take Obito solo either, what is your point.


Come off it said:


> 3. Anyone with SM in Naruto can damage someone more then someone without it. 8 gates is inferior against TSO's then SM rasnegan is just because of its properties.


does not mean SM Konohamaru would do as well or something. 
Or Gamakichi would blast through a TSB when we know he did not. 

It's having the ability to use SM, recognize the opportunity and attack at the right timing that's impressive. 



Come off it said:


> Pre-conceived notion that tobirama knows his brothers full power even know the strength difference is far too great. Hashi fought Mads and tobirama was there to see it the first time we see PS Vs WG. At which point does Hashi need to use SMSS aside from the valley of the end?


you still haven't answered the question. 

Does it seem likely that the guy who ate slept, fought and likely trained right alongside Hashirama his whole life and is a freakin sensor, has no idea how strong his brother is ?
Even though he knows his brother has sage mode and is stringer than him?



Come off it said:


> Would Konohamaru know Naruto's full power when sparring with him? Nope because its over in seconds, Naruto will tone his power down to fight Konohamaru evenly to train him, then naruto would go train by himself. His destructive capacity is far to high for anyone being near him aside from sasuke. But unlike Naruto and Sasuke, Hashi and Mads don't have that luxury and even if Mads was there he still isn't anywhere near Hashi in strength for him to use SMSS.


when he showed Konohamaru the Rasengan it was his strongest jutsu so yes. And he even showed him the god level jutsu he practiced more that his Rasengan...



Come off it said:


> can't claim this feat on his own. Tobirama isn't anywhere near hashi level. How would he even know his full power. There sparring isn't going to go all the way to SMSS level because its far too high for tobirama to even attempt to fight.


Hella alliance members saw Naruto fight, are they BSM Naruto level now? 
Nope.

Hashirama has to deal with a teleporter who is already faster than him, who knows how he thinks, who can use infinite explosions that can shatter even his gates and has unkillable soldiers. Also he almost certainly is marked already.

Same reason Madara said that in life they were all close in power in life, when Madara came back to life and had Tobirama on the ground.



Come off it said:


> SMSS is in a completely different league to anything, You need SPS to combat this. PS, Kurama, WG are nothing in comparison. Adding SM to either is still fodder compared to this. It has a SMWG already apart of it meaning that should be enough to combat the others with SM let alone fighting the 1000 hands and the buddha prior.


All of this is opinion.


Come off it said:


> You're the one that is ignoring feats and context, If PS is nothing in comparison, Full Kurama is nothing in comparison, together the only managed to destroy 500 hands at best, Half the strength of the hands,not including the SMWG+SMWB then how can you come to the conclusion that Naruto who has 50% Kurama + SM coming anywhere near. You have to look at why hashi says this and the power he responds with when fighting Mads. Or Juubito isn't as strong as people thought due to senjutsu as the TSO's are extremely weak against SM attacks which is why juubito is being pushed back.


If the two fought the same way at all, or TSB were not strong on their own you might have a point, but no.



Come off it said:


> You honestly think a giant rasengan that has SM added which is on equal power with TSO's is coming close to SMSS in terms of strength. TSO's get demolished. You honestly think if Prime VOTE Hashi got FTG back in against juubito and used SMSS against Juubito he'd be able to block this without juubidama's.


No. Nope. And yes.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 30, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Also Naruto is using Kurama's second half to power him after the first half couldn't continue the fight, this happens several times throughout the juubito fight. Tobirama compares Naruto to his brother because of SM, then he compares him when he uses the other half of Kurama's chakra, Still he says he might become better. There is no way BSM Naruto 100% Kurama is stronger than PS + 100% Kurama. SM does not equate to PS strength. Even SPSM on its own falls way short of PS in power. Even that combo of madara's which is still superior to Naruto's got stomped in 30 seconds by SMSS. Only SPSM NAruto can fight hashi and win. Every other version gets annihilated.



Or... Tobirama didn't mention power because he didn't mean power.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 30, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Only SPSM NAruto can fight hashi and win


To be fair tho, six paths Naruto does unspeakable things to Hashirama


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## Come off it (Dec 1, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> To be fair tho, six paths Naruto does unspeakable things to Hashirama


Hashi's only chance of winning is SMSS and hitting Naruto before he can gather enough senjutsu to tank it with the attack he used on Sasuke's IA. Other than that Hashi loses.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Dec 4, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Hashi's only chance of winning is SMSS and hitting Naruto before he can gather enough senjutsu to tank it with the attack he used on Sasuke's IA. Other than that Hashi loses.


But Naruto can just blitz him before he puts his hands together


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## sabre320 (Dec 4, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Hashi's only chance of winning is SMSS and hitting Naruto before he can gather enough senjutsu to tank it with the attack he used on Sasuke's IA. Other than that Hashi loses.


Did u just say outside of nature energy bijudama rasenshuriken asura bm avatar naruto ccant win against hashi...


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## Come off it (Dec 5, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> Did u just say outside of nature energy bijudama rasenshuriken asura bm avatar naruto ccant win against hashi...


Yeah pretty much if SMSS comes out. He hasn't got the firepower without this.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Come off it (Dec 5, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> But Naruto can just blitz him before he puts his hands together


Yeah that is a problem for hashi. Its getting the SS up similarly to Naruto gaining massive portions of NE.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 5, 2017)

The dang Shinju should be an auto open and shut case.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Nuttynutdude (Dec 5, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> Did u just say outside of nature energy bijudama rasenshuriken asura bm avatar naruto ccant win against hashi...


No, he said SPSM naruto doesnt have the firepower outside of the sage mode enhanced rasenshuriken.


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## Hi no Ishi (Dec 5, 2017)

Almost 300 post, and so much crazy!


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## Trancos015 (Dec 11, 2017)

I think Obito, regeneration, more chakra, greater destructive power. There is really nothing that Toneri can do with his Gudodamas that any other user of them can not and if I say it for the feat of cutting the Moon, if Toneri using 5 of them could create that sword I do not see why other users with the same amount can not create a weapon of similar dimensions.

It seems to me that Obito is a bit above, but Toneri is close enough to have real chances to win.


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