# Rank the known kage



## Matty (Nov 6, 2015)

Rank these kage in order of power. Put them in tiers if you'd like.

*Hokage*

Hashirama
Tobirama
Old Hiruzen
Minato
Tsunade
Danzo


*Mizukage*

Mei
Yagura
Gengetsu

*Tsuchikage*

Onoki
Mu

*Kazekage*

Gaara
Sandaime Kazekage
Rasa

*Raikage*

A
Sandaime Raikage
Darui


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

Why should we rank them? Because *YOU* say so?

You just lost my vote for MotM matty 


*Spoiler*: __ 








We we do know is Rocky will have the 4th Raikage above most


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## hbcaptain (Nov 6, 2015)

0-Hashirama 

*Top Kage :*
1-Minato
2-Tobirama

*High Kage :*
3-Yagura
4-Muu
5-Sandaime Raikage
6-Gengetsu
7-Danzo

*mid Kage :*
8-Onoki/Raikage
10-Sandaime Kazekage
11-Gaara
12-Tsunade 
13-Old Hiruzen

*Low Kage :*
14-Rasa
15-Mei
16-Darui


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## Kai (Nov 6, 2015)

9001 Tier
Darui

Demi-God
Hashirama

Top Tier
Minato
Tobirama

High Kage
Danzo
Onoki
Mu/Gengetsu
A (3rd)
A (4th)
Yagura
Tsunade

Mid Kage
Gaara (Adult Gaara may be top of the High Kage class)
Sandaime Kazekage
Old Hiruzen

Low Kage
Rasa
Mei


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## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

Minato
4th Raikage
the rest

/thread

*Edit:*

Nah, I actually agree with Kai (surprise) for the most part. Just some slight changes. As a disclaimer, the in-tier order isn't all that important.

Top Tier
Hashirama

High Tier
Minato
Tobirama

Mid Tier 
Danzō
Both Raikage
Both Tsuchikage
Gengetsu
Tsunade
Yagura*
Darui*
3rd Kazekage*

Low Kage
Gaara 
Mei
Old Hiruzen
Rasa

*Featless characters. I'm largley guessing.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

Speed > The ability to blow up villages/armies of super soldiers

Rocky Philosophy 

Granted, I know nothing of Darui & Gaara's recent movie feats.

*My list*:
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
Danzo (Koto)
Onoki
Sandaime Raikage
Mu
Yagura
Gengetsu
Tsunade
Gaara
A
Sandaime Kazekage
Rasa
Mei
Old Hiruzen
Darui​


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## Matty (Nov 6, 2015)

Rasa is such a bitch. I don't know why I can't like that guy. I always say I pretty much at least like every character but he is like the most boring character ever. As if they had Gaara, they made the 3rd with Iron Sand and then they were just lie "fuck it, bring ack Gaara's dad, have him tell him everyone loves him and then give him gold sand or some shit, idk i dont give a darn." end rant.


*My List*
Hashi
Tobi
Minato
Danzo

Sandaime Raikage
Onoki
Mu
Gengetsu
Yagura
Tsunade
Sandaime Kazekage
Gaara

Rasa
Mei
Darui​


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## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Speed > The ability to blow up villages/armies of super soldiers





Imo, Super Speed is a story-breaking superpower. There's a reason that all of the Raikage's opponents had access to instant-armor in the form of mini-Mechas, or had Super Speed/Teleportation themselves. 

Flash-step speed blitzing is anticlimactic and boring to watch or read about. Kishi dealt with this problem in different ways. For Raikage, it was instant-armor or equally fast opponents.

For Gai/Lee, Kishi had them dick around with insufficient speeds until the climax, where they went gates and proceeded to blitz. However, their opponents always had some level of super toughness/damage-soak so Gai & Lee wouldn't break the story. 

For Naruto, Kishi literally had him forget about his powers until the plot needed him to be fast again. It's one of the worst cases of PIS I've ever seen in fiction.


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## Matty (Nov 6, 2015)

Fuck I put Tobi over Minato -_- forget that happened. Minato is clearly over Tobi


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

You didn't have A on your list matt. 

@Rocky

As great as super speed is, the ability to support an army or blow up another army is just as important as 1 on 1 matchups. A is a single-element user and his entire offensive arsenal is close quarter based, he has no support abilities and he has no defensive techniques to protect his comrades.

He's not above people that can also excel at 1 on 1 match ups, but whom can also eradicate armies or villages hours before he could, as well as protect armies or villages.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 6, 2015)

Only Rocky remembered to put Rasa at the very bottom.  Only Rocky gets repped.


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## Matty (Nov 6, 2015)

Now that PoW said that idk why I have him over mei. IDK I might have to put gengetsu above Raikage.


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## Turrin (Nov 6, 2015)

Hokage:

1. Hashirama
2. Minato
3. Tobirama 
4. Danzo
5. Tsunade
6. Old-Hiruzen

Mizukage:

1. Gengetsu
2. Yagura
3. Mei

Tsuchikage:

1. Mu
2. Onoki

Kazekage:

1. Gaara
2. Sandaime-Kazekage
3. Rasa

Raikage:

1. Sandaime-Raikage
2. Ei

Didn't watch the movie so I don't know how strong Raikage Darui is


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## Matty (Nov 6, 2015)

Lmao Sandaime was so haxxed the only way he got injured was from himself  I think that say enough about his durability. He'd probably be one of the first people I take if we were drafting for a war


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## Deer Lord (Nov 6, 2015)

tier 0: 
Hashirama

tier 1:
Minato
Tobirama

tier 2:
3rd Raikage
Muu
Onoki
Danzo
Gengetsu

tier 3:
4th Raikage
Tsunade
Gaara

tier 4:
Rasa
Mei
Old Hiruzen

yagura and 3rd kazekage are too featless for me to rank.
haven't watched the boruto movie so can't comment about darui.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 6, 2015)

Kai said:


> 9001 Tier
> Darui
> 
> Demi-God
> ...



Both As are Low Kage. Gaara, Onoki and Danzo are Mid Kage. The rest is correct except Gaara isnt the top of any High Kage otherwise Deidara is God Tier. Gaara has only gotten a bit stronger. Deidara didnt even go all out. Any form of Gaara dies to C4.

And whats 9001 tier lol?


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## Ghoztly (Nov 6, 2015)

If we're going by power Kai's list is fairly accurate. Portrayal wise the list would be very different, most Kage's did jack shit tbh.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 6, 2015)

*God Tier*
Hahirama

*Demigod Tier*
Tobirama.

*High Kage*
Minato
Muu
Oonoki
Tsunade
Gengetsu
Ei
Ei's Dad

*Mid-Kage*
Gaara
Mei
Yagura
Sandaime Kazekage


*Low Kage*
Old Hiruzen
Darui

*Fail Tier*
Danzo

*Ultimate Fodder of Ultimate Irrelevance Tier*
Gaara's dad


Mabui's teleport gets hyped to hell and downplayed to nothing for Tsunade, but it's completely and 100% overlooked that it's greater purpose was to show Ei's growth over his father.  He was finally able to use the teleport his father did, and surpass him in Papakage's strongest and most hyped attribute.  (Okay nukite beat his defence but 2/3 ain't bad.)


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## Ghoztly (Nov 6, 2015)

Lmao Gaara's dad getting shit on and for good reason. I almost forgot he even existed. WTF why are people putting Hiruzen so low? What a bunch of downplayers.


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## Matty (Nov 6, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Both As are Low Kage. Gaara, Onoki and Danzo are Mid Kage. The rest is correct except Gaara isnt the top of any High Kage otherwise Deidara is God Tier. Gaara has only gotten a bit stronger. Deidara didnt even go all out. Any form of Gaara dies to C4.
> 
> And whats 9001 tier lol?



You do not know how strong Gaara has gotten.... I doubt Deidara would fare as well if he fought a 15 year old Gaara. On the other hand, though, Deidara ws a 19 year old.

Sadly Both A's are easily mid-high kage. Sandaime is easily high kage.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 6, 2015)

Katsuyu solo's armies. Is there a portrayal list somewhere? Tsunade would be god tier. 

Gaara as well, talk about using terrain.

Strength wise they might be on the lower end of the spectrum, but when all is said and done they did more in battles than some of the higher tier fighters.


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## Matty (Nov 6, 2015)

Yea Gaara gets vastly underrated a lot. In every fight he has had besides the original Rock Lee one he has shown incredible flexibility and insane volumes of sand. Add flight to the mix and you got yourself a badass.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 6, 2015)

I think Rocky has a point.

Ei's makes high kage on my list because they're so good at their one dimension, they can comfortably beat more versatile mid and low kage enough that it warrants a tier gap.  They still only hit the bottom of high on my list, because we start running into people who can diffuse or trump or compete with their one dimension, whilst having more dimensions.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 6, 2015)

> It doesn't matter how fast he is, he would never be able to compete with a Jinton user in kill count per second.



In fairness, Onoki can't jinton for three days straight, but the Raikage's can.


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## Turrin (Nov 6, 2015)

Yet the Raikage canonically been outperformed both in hype and feats by the Tsuchikage. 

Onoki and Mu's Jinton was considered a much bigger threat to the alliance than Sandaime's abilities.

Mu performed better than Sandaime against Naruto, ultimately surviving his encounter with dat-clone.

Onoki performed better than Ei against Madara

Fuck the alliance thought only Onoki (due to having Jinton) could stand up to Mu, and didn't even once consider Ei as someone who could stand up to Jinton.

-----

What does Kishi have to do to make you people stop overrating the Raikage LOL


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## hbcaptain (Nov 6, 2015)

Muu was beaten by Naruto's clone who is ways slower than V2 Raikage .


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> In fairness, Onoki can't jinton for three days straight, but the Raikage's can.


In fairness, they don't have to.

Onoki can wipe out thousands of shinobi in 5 seconds of start battle with Flower Tree World level Jinton.

It's the one-dimensional Raikage that have to fight for days against armies, because they simply don't have the means by any stretch to eradicate an army quickly. 



> Muu was beaten by Naruto's clone who is ways slower than V2 Raikage .


And yet Mu could probably wipe out the army the Raikage took 3 days to die to in under an hour with Jinton.

Now here's the million dollar question: Who would you take in that situation, Mu or the 3rd Raikage?

It's pretty clear Mu is infinitely better suited than the Raikage in that situation.

On a more ironic note, the Raikage was beat by a single SM Naruto who didn't even have enough chakra to enter KCM.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 6, 2015)

The Raikage doesn't contribute much to a large scale battle. Eliminating singular threats maybe.

Onoki shits on everyone else and is in Tsunade tier when it comes to effectiveness.


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## t0xeus (Nov 6, 2015)

*Upper top tier*
Hashirama

*Top tier*
Minato
Tobirama/Sandaime Raikage
Muu


*Mid tier*
Onoki
A
Tsunade
Gengetsu
Yagura
Danzo
Old Hiruzen
Gaara

*Low tier*
Darui
Mei
Sandaime Kazekage
Rasa


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## hbcaptain (Nov 6, 2015)

> And yet Mu could probably wipe out the army the Raikage took 3 days to die to in under an hour with Jinton.


No since he is limited to just 2/3 utilisations , Muu will bee fastly exhausted against such a huge number of ennemy .


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 6, 2015)

Hokage 

Hashirama>Minato>Danzo(Koto)>Tobirama>Danzo(No Koto)>Tsunade>Old Hiruzen


Raikage

Sandaime>Yondaime>Godaime(Darui)


Tsuchikage

Onoki>Mu


Mizukage

Troll>Yagura>Mei


Kazekage

Gaara>3rd>Rasa



1. Hashirama

2. Minato

3. Danzo w Koto

4. Tobirama

5. Danzo w/o Koto

6. Tsunade

7. Old Hiruzen

8. Onoki/Gaara

9. Troll

10. Mu

11. Sandaime Raikage

12. 3rd Kazekage

13. Darui,Mei, Rasa


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

Mu limited to 3 uses of Jinton?

No way.


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## t0xeus (Nov 6, 2015)

It may be more, but he's not killing 5.000 fodders with such a taxing technique like Jinton (when his chakra splits up he can't even use Jinton at all).


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

He's casually wiping them out in no time.

Jinton isn't taxing, it has never been described as taxing.

Onoki ran out of chakra after exchanging it for an extended period against Mu.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 6, 2015)

He exchanged Jinton for about as long as it took Gaara to seal Rasa.  AKA 5 seconds.


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## t0xeus (Nov 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He's casually wiping them out in no time.
> 
> Jinton isn't taxing, it has never been described as taxing.
> 
> Onoki ran out of chakra after exchanging it for an extended period against Mu.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> He exchanged Jinton for about as long as it took Gaara to seal Rasa.  AKA 5 seconds.


What the fuck?

Pops was telling him the entire backstory of his fucking life while Onoki was exchanging Jinton with him.

Then Onoki summoned Doton clones to continue battling Mu [1]


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## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

You are possibly the biggest proponent of off-panel feats on this board.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 6, 2015)

*Above*
Hashirama

*High Kage*
Minato
Tobirama
Mu
3rd Raikage 
Yagura
Danzō

*Mid Tier *
Onoki
Gengetsu
A
Tsunade
3rd Kazekage
Rasa

*Low Kage*
Gaara 
Darui
Mei
Old Hiruzen
Rusty Tsunade


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## Ghoztly (Nov 6, 2015)

Yall are going to have to forgive me for this salty post.

Seriously, what the fuck. People putting clowns like Rasa higher than Hiruzen ? Disgraceful.

Who the fuck is Yagura by the way? No feats what so ver, ASS tier until proven otherwise. No business being anywhere near mid or high kage. Gaara is also mid Kage. No way he is that low, people must have forgot how strong he was or something.


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## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

@Strat

The Third Raikage probably beats fewer people than the Fourth Raikage does, and Gengetsu literally drew with Mū. All of those guys should be on the same tier.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 6, 2015)

IMO the 3rd Raikage's much better than A. He's a bit slower, but much more durable, has a very powerful ranged attack he invented (is therefore likely more intelligent than A,) and a legendary Rikudo item that you're probably not accounting for. 

And just because Gengetsu and Mu fought to a draw doesn't mean they should be on the same tier. Old Hiruzen was close to fighting Orochimaru with Edo Hashirama and Tobirama to a draw, even though there was a clear tier difference.

Mu has better abilities than Gengetsu, and was clearly more hyped when resurrected. In my opinion, Gengetsu had circumstances working for him when he beat Mu. The 3rd Raikage and Mu would defeat more overall ninja than Gengetsu or A in my opinion.

@Ghozt, Rasa summoned a Tsunami or metal that I don't think Old Hiruzen can deal with. Rasa is in many ways better than Gaara, and IMO would have won if not fighting Gaara in the middle of the desert. Gaara varies from Low to Mid depending on where he is.​


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## hbcaptain (Nov 6, 2015)

> @Ghozt, Rasa summoned a Tsunami or metal that I don't think Old Hiruzen can deal with. Rasa is in many ways better than Gaara, and IMO would have won if not fighting Gaara in the middle of the desert.


Hiruzen just have to sommon Enma's shiel to stop it .


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 6, 2015)

Broke it up a little more by tiers then most. No particular order on tiers

Tier 1
Hashirama

Tier 2
Minato
Tobirama

Tier 3
Danzo
Muu
Third Raikage

Tier 4 
Ei
Onoki
Gengetsu
Tsunade
Gaara 

Tier 4
Yagura
Darui
3rd Kazekage
Mei
Old Hiruzen
Rasa


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## hbcaptain (Nov 6, 2015)

Oh men , Yagura is really underestimated , since when a genius perfect Jinchuriki was such a weakling ....


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## Ghoztly (Nov 6, 2015)

Hiruzen is being highly underestimated and it's funny to me. Are we forgetting he fought Orochimaru with both arms, and two edo tensei kage's? Hashirama and Tobirama by the way. You could argue it was all BS and Kishi had no idea what he was doing with the story but that's still 3 kage level opponents.

HUGE arsenal of jutsu, and he wasn't bad off in cqc either. People act like he's fodder all the time clearly not the case.

Yagura has zero feats.


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 6, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Oh men , Yagura is really underestimated , since when a genius perfect Jinchuriki was such a weakling ....



True however did he really show anything impressive for his hype. IF thats what you want to call it


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

t0xeus said:


>


What are you trying to show here?

I directly stated he ran out of chakra after battling Mu, just as Onoki said there.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 6, 2015)

> True however did he really show anything impressive for his hype. IF thats what you want to call it


It's not because he wasn't shown enough that he is weak , if he was alive plus if we add a little real battles/feats he would be at least at Killer Bee's level since the two of them are Perffect Jinchuriki whom master BD and Bijuu transformation .


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## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> IMO the 3rd Raikage's much better than A. He's a bit slower, but much more durable, has a very powerful ranged attack he invented (is therefore likely more intelligent than A,) and a legendary Rikudo item that you're probably not accounting for.



3rd Raikage:

Super Speed/Reflexes
Super Strength 
Super _Duper_ Durability/Toughness
Super Stamina

4th Raikage:

Super _Duper_ Speed/Reflexes
Super Strength 
Super Durability/Toughness
Super Stamina

They're the same thing. Hell Stab is actually less useful than v2. Nukites 1-4 don't actually allow AAA to kill anybody that A could not kill with a v2 lightning horizontal backhand. On the flip side, v2 gives A an answer to Amaterasu and....well, speed blitzes pretty much everything without comparable speed or insta-armor. 

I'm actually giving Sandaime the benefit of the doubt in durability, by the way. Yondaime was never properly tested, and the Mabui exchange made me question as to whether or not Kishimoto was trying to indicate a "passing of the torch" in body toughness. 



Strategoob said:


> Old Hiruzen was close to fighting Orochimaru with Edo Hashirama and Tobirama to a draw, even though there was a clear tier difference.



1.) Hiruzen still lost.

2.) It was _heavily_ implied that Orochimaru was jobbing.

3.) Reaper Death Seal is among the most lolzy techniques in the story, only behind the 8th Gate when it comes to suicide-jutsu, imo.



Strategoob said:


> In my opinion, Gengetsu had circumstances working for him when he beat Mu.



...evidence? Implications? 



Strategoob said:


> The 3rd Raikage and Mu would defeat more overall ninja than Gengetsu or A in my opinion.



Like who.


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## t0xeus (Nov 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> What are you trying to show here?
> 
> I directly stated he ran out of chakra after battling Mu, just as Onoki said there.



The fight was mostly off-paneled, we've seen Onoki just use 2-3 low-rank techniques against Muu, yet he wasn't able to make Jinton until later.

Anyways I don't have any more proof, I thought it was accepted as a fact on here, that Kekkei Tota is very chakra-taxing and can't be spammed more
 than 3-5 times (depending on the size), and also when there has been emphasis on how Onoki sometimes can't use because of chakra, or when 
Muu used Fission technique.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

Never stated, never implied.

The devistation to this landscape in this specific location (they clearly could have moved from somewhere else to this area) suggests it was used more than 2 times [1], especially considering they started with one near the location where the other three kages were currently being sealed.

After this, Onoki summons clones and continues to battle Mu. The clones are destroyed later, when we see Gaara & Onoki hovering above the landscape, and Mu attacking out of invisibility. He could've used more Jinton prior to those clones being destroyed.

As it pertains to Mu and not Onoki - Onoki's stamina feats have nothing to do with him. If he had only used 2 techniques against Mu - that wouldn't matter. Mu isn't Old ass Onoki, he's Mu.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 6, 2015)

> Never stated, never implied.



[1]

What is the implication when dividing yourself makes your trump card impossible?


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## Sadgoob (Nov 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> 3rd Raikage:
> 
> Super Speed/Reflexes
> Super Strength
> ...



The 3rd Raikage also isn't limited to close range like A, invented the black lightning which IMO points to higher intellect, and a high intellect mixed with the Amber Sealing Pot he used means he could beat a lot of people A struggles with.



Rocky said:


> On the flip side, v2 gives A an answer to Amaterasu



When he knows it's coming by looking at the MS, anyway.



Rocky said:


> 1.) Hiruzen still lost.



Other matches where the outcome betrays the reality of overall level difference would be Chiyo killing Sasori, Sasuke killing Itachi, Naruto killing Nagato, Shikamaru killing Hidan, Gaara killing Kimimaro, Naruto killing Haku, etc. 

It's almost more common in the manga for the clearly weaker ninja to kill the jobbing, weakened, etc. stronger ninja through preparation, special circumstances, etc. Mu was _much_ more hyped than Gengetsu. 



Rocky said:


> Like who.



Gengetsu is weak offensively. He would not be able to kill Kakuzu, Orochimaru, A, the 3rd Raikage, Tsunade, Suigetsu, etc. Mu can be undetectable like Gengetsu, but obliterate them with Jinton. 

With the Amber Sealing Pot and a high intellect, there's really no limit on who the 3rd Raikage could beat, and he can also shoot down people that stay at range with flight or through other means.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 6, 2015)

Hint:


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## Sadgoob (Nov 6, 2015)

^ Itachi's a liar though.



Complete_Ownage said:


> True however did he really show anything impressive for his hype. IF thats what you want to call it



That mirror jutsu was cool AF tho.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> [1]
> 
> What is the implication when dividing yourself makes your trump card impossible?


When did I suggest dividing himself made his trump card invalid? He exchanged Jinton for an extended period with Mu, and likely after that when he continued to battle him. 

I'm tired of repeating this, I won't again. Accept it, or don't. 

Please refer to the remainder of my post instead of replying to a single sentence next time.


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## Ersa (Nov 6, 2015)

*Top Tier*
Hashirama

*High Kage*
Minato [Living]
Tobirama
Danzō

*Mid Kage*
Darui
Mu
3rd Raikage 
Yagura
Onoki
Gengetsu
A
Tsunade
3rd Kazekage

*Low Kage*
Gaara 
Rasa
Mei
Old Hiruzen


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## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The manga said Jinton was a much bigger threat than Sandaime-Raikage.



I already told you, the alliance overestimated Mū & underestimated the other two.



Turrin said:


> Grouping Sandaime with Gengetsu is pure BS and you know it.



They had fodder fight both.

Clear underestimation.  



Turrin said:


> Mu performed better than Sandaime-Raikage.



KCM Naruto put a hole in Mū in under a minute with minor assistance from Gaara. 

AAA tanked the strongest technique available to Naruto at the time, only to "lose" later to plot nerfs, ass-pulls, and PIS. 



Turrin said:


> Spare me the objective list that I'd struggle to replicate for any of these characters.



Fixed.



Turrin said:


> Onoki proved more defensively capable against Madara than Ei and Mu proved more defensively capable against Naruto than Sandaime.



You're a funny guy. Naruto turns Mū into a scalp with Rasenshuriken & Madara knocks Ōnoki over with his gigantic Susano'o and puts a Magatama through his torso.

Call me when either of those two get defensive enough to avoid catching a stray projectile to the back of the neck from one of the thousands of ninja they're fighting. Maybe then we can compare them to Raikage.


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## ARGUS (Nov 6, 2015)

1. Hashirama 
2. Minato 
3. Tobirama 
4. Muu
5. Third Raikage 
6. Ay
7. Gengetsu 
8. Onoki 
9. Gaara 
10. Hiruzen 
11. Tsunade
12. Mei
13. Rasa


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## Turrin (Nov 6, 2015)

@Rocky

So let me get this straight, your argument relies on the Alliance HQ, including Sandaime's own son, having a completely fucked understanding of his power; and the Alliance HQ, including Mu's own student and fellow Jinton user, having a completely fucked understanding of Mu's power.


And your only justification for this is your subjective belief that Ei's/Sandaime's abilities > Onoki's/Mu's


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## Ghoztly (Nov 6, 2015)

Can't believe people are putting Hiruzen last, sigh...


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 6, 2015)

Everything in the manga has pointed at Mu > Sandaime's....


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## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> So let me get this straight, your argument relies on the Alliance HQ, including Sandaime's own son, having a completely fucked understanding of his power; and the Alliance HQ, including Mu's own student and fellow Jinton user, having a completely fucked understanding of Mu's power.



They did to an extent. They fucked everything up. With all of the information they had on the Thrid Raikage, guess who they sent to stop him? Temari and cannon fodder. Guess who they sent to fight Gengetsu? Just cannon fodder.

In retrospect, I find it comical that Allied Shinobi Forces had such a gross misjudgement on the past Kage. The first division literally got murdered by a kage _that was trying to fucking lose._ Those poor fodders were sent to their deaths.

The alliance is _incredibly_ lucky that Naruto showed up. Ōnoki's back gave out, which would have ended the fight against Mū, who would have then floated his ass right on over to Gaara to obliterate him. Meanwhile, the 3rd Raikage would have gone on the offensive and slaughtered Temari and the rest of that division, alongside Gengetsu, who couldn't stop accidentally stomping dozens of ninja.

The should've sent ninja capable of mind transfer & shadow possession with Ōnoki to face the Third Raikage. They should've sent Raikage and ninja capable of massive, area-of-effect ninjutsu to face Gengetsu. They should've sent Gaara & Tsunade to team up against Mū, with support from other ninja capable of ranged ninjutsu. Fuck, what was Mei doing?

Kishimoto knew Naruto was going to save the day though, so I can't exactly _blame_ the alliance for being worse at strategy than you or I. That said, sending old-ass Ōnoki, unpredictable back problems and all, to face the supposed "greatest threat" sounds like an awful idea, and guess what? _It was._


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

Onoki & Gaara went after Mu initially Rocky.

There's a reason why a High Kage & Mid Kage (arguably High Kage in that desert) took on Mu by themselves, and left the other two to the long range division.

The crazy part is he was about to kill them both when KCM Naruto intervened, so they couldn't even handle him. 

After that, a weaker Gaara & Onoki (after Mu whooped dat ass and turned Onoki into an elite jounin Flying Rock Fist User) beat Gengetsu.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

No Rocky. Onoki summoned Doton Bunshin after Rasa was sealed, which is the exact moment when Raikage & Gengetsu break out of sand coffin. The bunshin were all gone when Gaara & Onoki where fighting the invisible Mu.

Gaara & Mu were fighting him both for a period of time, which is what allowed Gengetsu to set up clam Genjutsu.

Seals Rasa, sees them go after alliance

entire division surrounds them, Gaara still no where to be found (clearly fighting Mu now), clam not summoned yet

Onoki summons bunshin

Chapters later, Gengetsu has Clam Genjutsu instituted and has already told the division multiple times how to counter it [2]

Gaara is shown fighting aside Onoki, with a sand detection jutsu set up (takes prep, clearly used because of Mu) with Onoki's Doton Clones already destroyed after this

They were both clearly fighting Mu for a period of time.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

Mū actually tells Ōnoki to "call the Kazekage" on the page before your second scan, so something is wrong with your interpretation. [1]


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

What's that have to do with anything?

Dude literally went after Mu a panel after that, which is why you didn't see sand further attacking the Raikage & Gengetsu until Mu was defeated.

Clear documented proof there was time elapsed from when Gaara stopped going after Gengetsu & Raikage, I posted the scans, until the point where Gaara & Onoki are both shown battling Mu.

They literally battled him for a period of time off panel.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

Mū on the page before your second scan: "Call the Kazekage or you're going to die."

*goes invisible*

Ōnoki in your third scan: "Don't underestimate me!"

*creates clones to cover flanks*

If you think Gaara got there before any of that ^ occurred, you should rethink things.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

And what does it matter, btw?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

Are you suggesting Mu destroyed all of his flying bunshin before Gaara got there?

Are you suggesting the alliance surrounded the two other edo kage, Mizukage summons a clam and completely covers the battlefield in Genjutsu, starts killing loads of them, then tells them multiple times in between these multiple mass kill sprees how to counter the Genjutsu -

And Gaara gets to Mu just right after that and his first move is to put up a sand detection jutsu?

Illogical, sorry dude.

He likely got to Mu seconds after the Edo Kage blitzed at the alliance, prior to them surrounding them, prior to Gengetsu implementing the entire battlefield in genjutsu, and prior to the Mizukage, several times, telling them how to counter it in detail in breaks between him killing mass amounts of them then stopping to talk to them. 

It matters because they battled him for a period, then he was about to defeat both of them with Jinton.

This not only validates that them going after him was the best move (he literally was powerful enough to defeat them both - would've completely raped the division alone), but that he stalled them for a period of time and tired them out.


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## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

I'm not going to go back & forth on something like this, because I don't actually care if Mū kept up with both of them.

All that tells me is that Ōnoki is pathetic, because Mū got boat raced by a Naruto clone with minor assistance from Gaara in like ten seconds.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

So what?

KCM Naruto hit him with FRS in 3 seconds without being touched.

SM Naruto put his own arm through him without being touched.

The fuck did that guy do? Kill some fodder?

It's comical that you question the strength of a guy getting the best of a high kage and mid kage, literally aiming down the sights to eradicate them-

when the dude you're backing only succeeded in murdering fodder and got no diff'd by weakened SM Naruto with a Rasengan.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 6, 2015)

Gaara initially focused on Rasa, not Mū. Ohnoki initially went for Mū solo.

Rasa > Third Raikage and Gengetsu, too? Not likely.

You have to remember that one of their duties as the Kazekage and Tsuchikage is to minimize casualties as much as they can. Part of doing that would be taking care of the large area-of-effect fighters first because otherwise, without any other ninja in the alliance that are strong enough to pose a threat on their own the area-of-effect fighters are going to take out more of those ninja more quickly.

That's most likely what actually motivated the comments about Ohnoki needing to be the one that fought Mū. He is the only one of the five who could fight Mū _with an alliance to protect._ Ohnoki could (basically) _block_ a Jinton with his own Jinton. Any of the other Kage would have had to _dodge it_, and in doing so risk their soldiers being taken out anyway.

If they fought Mū and didn't manage to actually protect the alliance, how much of a point was there to going out and fighting the guy in the first place even if they won?


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

He literally attacked all four of them initially, then sealed Rasa because he was preventing Gaara from sealing the others.

Ergo there was a shit load of gold sand above his sand, he pulled a small portion of it above Rasa's position to stop him from doing it.


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## Rocky (Nov 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> KCM Naruto hit him with FRS in 3 seconds without being touched.



And it did jack shit.



DaVizWiz said:


> SM Naruto put his own arm through him without being touched.



And? The only thing that could hurt the 3rd Raikage was his own offense. If the 3rd Raikage doesn't use One-finger Nukite, Naruto loses. 



DaVizWiz said:


> It's comical that you question the strength of a guy getting the best of a high kage and mid kage, literally aiming down the sights to eradicate them



Then Naruto arrives.

*ten seconds later*





DaVizWiz said:


> when the dude you're backing only succeeded in murdering fodder and got no diff'd by weakened SM Naruto with a Rasengan.



Actually, Naruto need heavy assistance from the plot, including but not limited to PIS, Super Dodai, and insta-Sage Mode.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2015)

> And it did jack shit.


Dude was on his ass, raiton cloak deactivated, cracked up fucked up body. 

0% chance he survives that alive, nutribulleted his fucking insides. 



> And? The only thing that could hurt the 3rd Raikage was his own offense. If the 3rd Raikage doesn't use One-finger Nukite, Naruto loses.


Summons Ma & Pa, Frog Song GG.

Reacts, splits without them noticing.

Dude legit still found a way to troll two high kage, and a mid kage in plain sight. 



> Actually, Naruto need havy assistance from the plot, including but not limited to PIS, Super Dodai, and insta-Sage Mode.


Could've easily summoned Ma/Pa and frog song GG'd as division stalled him.

We can do the individual match up thing. 

Anything 30m+ Mu mid diffs 3rd Raikage, immediate Jinton blindside beam out of invisibility less than a minute in, probably can't even dodge it without the blindside.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Dude was on his ass, raiton cloak deactivated, cracked up fucked up body.



It didn't put a scratch on him. [1] 

It doesn't get much clearer than that. I'm not about to go crazy over cracks on a body composed of dirt. You are _delirious_ if you think Rasenshuriken would've done anything if he were alive. 



DaVizWiz said:


> Summons Ma & Pa, Frog Song GG



Naruto was never indicated to know the ritual. Furthermore, where exactly was he supposed to find time for it with Lightning Mode Raikage on his ass? Is the cannon fodder supposed to stall for him, or are you assuming the plot is going to protect him again?



DaVizWiz said:


> Dude legit still found a way to troll two high kage, and a mid kage in plain sight.



...he was largely useless and is largely useless while split, so I don't really care.



DaVizWiz said:


> Anything 30m+ Mu mid diffs 3rd Raikage, immediate Jinton blindside beam out of invisibility less than a minute in, probably can't even dodge it without the blindside.



AAA evaded Rasenshuriken being redirected at his flank from like a meter away. The Raikage dodges Jinton forever. 

Jinton's best speed feat is...actually I don't even know. If I really wanted to be mean, I'd remind you that it was too slow to injure Sasuke – from like a foot away – before Obito used Kamui twice, grabbing Sasuke in the process. 

But I'd never do that.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 7, 2015)

> It didn't put a scratch on him. [1]


Are you blind?

Look at his cracked skin bro [1], his right arm looks partially separated. 



> It doesn't get much clearer than that. I'm not about to go crazy over cracks on a body composed of dirt. You are _delirious_ if you think Rasenshuriken would've done anything if he were alive.


By god the wank. Dirt? LOL after a wind bomb hits him?

That's fucking cracked skin across his entire body, which means severe wounds across his entire body. 

I don't care if the dude looked better after the technique hit him externally, it's literally an internal-focused damaging technique.

That dude's entire chakra pathway system would be eradicated if he were alive, his bones would be shattered, his muscles would be shredded, his organs would be liquefied, there would be massive internal bleeding from the top of his head down to the tip of his toes. 



> Naruto was never indicated to know the ritual. Furthermore, where exactly was he supposed to find time for it with Lightning Mode Raikage on his ass? Is the cannon fodder supposed to stall for him, or are you assuming the plot is going to protect him again?


Plot?

Okay, let's get really serious here.

He summons Gamabunta and Gamabunta leaps multiple miles across the upper atmosphere, he summons Ma/Pa on top of Gamabunta, they prep it miles away from this dude and behind an entire division. 



> ...he was largely useless and is largely useless while split, so I don't really care.


The 3rd Raikage only accomplished killing Fodder... he was entirely useless. 



> AAA evaded Rasenshuriken being redirected at his flank from like a meter away. The Raikage dodges Jinton forever.


No chance, especially if it's released from a blindside angle, which an invisible Mu can do at any point. 

Jinton covers far larger area of the landscape, especially the one that was used to eradicate a large portion of Flower Tree World, as apposed to a human-sized projectile that he had to deviate the position of his body half a meter to avoid. 

The crazy part is if Naruto expanded that Rasenshuriken he used, like he did against Pain, it would've hit the Raikage directly - the first time. 



> Jinton's best speed feat is...actually I don't even know. If I really wanted to be mean, I'd remind you that it was too slow to injure Sasuke – from like a foot away – before Obito used Kamui twice, grabbing Sasuke in the process.


Probably wiping out an entire V3 Susano Army with clones who have reactions superior to the 3rd Raikage - while not even used in a beam version.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Even though he was planted on his ass for multiple seconds with a shit ton of wounds on exterior, which if alive, would basically be no different than being cut a hundred times across the body and he'd bleed out and die in 10 seconds.



You're in some serious denial. Instead of describing random injuries that the Raikage wouldn't have had, how about pulling up some scans that support any of the shit you're saying.  

And please, spare me the scan of his appearance after the technique. Cracks don't mean shit on an Edo Tensei. Sometimes, they've got cracks without injury. Rasenshuriken did less than Nukite, and when he was alive, Nukite didn't even kill him. 

ck



DaVizWiz said:


> Lmao, SM Naruto literally dodged his attack with ease.



What does that have to do with Gamabunta.



DaVizWiz said:


> The Frog Leaps away



No longer being delayed by the plot, Raikage regains super speed, catches the frog, and chops its legs off. 



DaVizWiz said:


> Except for turning a High Kage into a flying rock fist



This is the only thing that isn't fanfiction. 



DaVizWiz said:


> The 3rd Raikage got thrown away like a piece of garbage by an SM Naruto who didn't even have enough chakra to enter KCM for a second.



That'd be because Naruto wasted it attempting to hurt the Raikage. This wasn't a problem against Mū, who got paneled by Rasengan in five seconds. Mū's performance was _pathetic._ 



DaVizWiz said:


> Literally wiped out a kilometer+ of Mokuton in a panel.



Call me when Mokuton grows legs and gets super speed.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 7, 2015)

> You're in some serious denial. Instead of describing random injuries that the Raikage wouldn't have had, how about pulling up some scans that support any of the shit you're saying.


I literally posted the scan. 



> And please, spare me the scan of his appearance after the technique. Cracks don't mean shit on an Edo Tensei. Sometimes, they've got cracks without injury. Rasenshuriken did less than Nukite, and when he was alive, Nukite didn't even kill him.


If you disagree with what's drawn on panel I can't help you man.

I see it, you see it. Stop denying it.

His entire body is cracked, which on an alive person means the entire body is cut. 



> No longer being delayed by the plot, Raikage regains super speed, catches the frog, and chops its legs off.


Frog leaps away faster than it took

>Naruto to decide to enter SM
>Naruto gather senjutsu to enter SM
>Naruto enter SM
>Naruto summon clone
>Naruto clone make rasengan in hand
>Clone goes poof
>Naruto waits for Raikage to come toward him
>Naruto dodges last-second extension of 1 Finger Nukite ass surprise attack that still couldn't help him
>Naruto slams it in arm without Raikage reacting



> That'd be because Naruto wasted it attempting to hurt the Raikage. This wasn't a problem against Mū, who got paneled by Rasengan in five seconds. Mū's performance was _pathetic._


Mu's performance against a high kage and mid kage was spectacular.

He clearly solo'd them.

3rd Raikage solo'd fodder, then got solo'd by SM Naruto with Rasengan, which is basically a low kage at best. 



> Call me when Mokuton grows legs and gets super speed.


Call me when the 3rd Raikage dodges attacks he can't see.

Blindside Jinton beam one panels. 

Mu bends him over, and vaporizes his the one-dimensional fighter's manhood.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> His skin is cracked, which on an alive person means the skin is cut.



Quick, somebody get Madara to a shrink. He's cutting. [1]



DaVizWiz said:


> Frog leaps away faster than it took



I have no clue why you keep bringing up Sage Naruto as if he has anything to do with a frog.



DaVizWiz said:


> Mu's performance against a high kage and mid kage was spectacular.



Ōnoki & Gaara are mid tiers, and Ōnoki was doing fine by himself. Things only really began to go downhill when Ōnoki's back gave out, which essentially takes him from mid tier to sitting duck/cannon fodder.

Luckily for him, a Naruto clone showed up and paneled Mū.



DaVizWiz said:


> Call me when the 3rd Raikage dodges attacks he can't see.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 7, 2015)

> I have no clue why you keep bringing up Sage Naruto as if he anything to do with a frog.


Oh boy. 



> Ōnoki & Gaara are mid tiers, and Ōnoki was doing fine by himself. Things only really began to go downhill when Ōnoki's back gave out, which essentially takes him from mid tier to sitting duck/cannon fodder.


Onoki is a high kage.

Gaara in the desert is arguably a high kage. 

Stalling a pre-back giving out Onoki & fresh Gaara is better than anything the 3rd Raikage could do. 



> Luckily for him, a Naruto clone showed up and paneled Mū.


KCM Naruto clone, mind you. 

The same clone would have slammed the rasengan into sandaime's arm faster than SM Naruto. 



>


Literally turns around and sees it coming toward him [1]

The fuck are you trying to do? Lie now?


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Onoki is a high kage.
> 
> Gaara in the desert is arguably a high kage.



No. 



DaVizWiz said:


> Stalling a pre-back giving out Onoki & fresh Gaara is better than anything the 3rd Raikage could do.



That depends on what actually happened off-panel. Considering how unimpressive Mū was against Naruto, I don't particularly care to speculate about what happened off-panel. Actual high tiers, like Minato, Itachi, or Obito, don't get paneled by Naruto clones. 



DaVizWiz said:


> The same clone would have slammed the rasengan into sandaime's arm faster than SM Naruto.



KCM Naruto has super speed & super reflexes (when the plot needs him to be fast).

Sage Mode Naruto has super duper reflexes and good speed. 

The latter is more useful for what he wanted to do against the Raikage, thus the comments. [1]



DaVizWiz said:


> Literally turns around and sees it coming toward him



Which is exactly what would happen with Jinton.


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## Bonly (Nov 7, 2015)

I'd rank them as:

*Top Tier *

Hashi

*High Kage level*

Danzo
Minato
Tobi
Tsunade/Onoki
Yagura

*Mid Kage level*

The French Dude/Muu
Sandaime Raikage
Garra
Rasa
Mei
A

*Low Kage Level* 

Kakashi
Old Hiruzen


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 7, 2015)

> No.


Yep, support ability far above the 3rd Raikage, army annhilator, and he beats him 1 on 1. 



> That depends on what actually happened off-panel. Considering how unimpressive Mū was against Naruto, I don't particularly care to speculate about what happened off-panel. Actual high tiers, like Minato, Itachi, or Obito, don't get paneled by Naruto clones.


Itachi isn't high kage, he's literally weaker than Mu and would lose to him with full knowledge. 



> KCM Naruto has super speed & super reflexes (when the plot needs him to be fast).


Indeed. 



> Sage Mode Naruto has super duper reflexes and good speed.


Indeed, enough speed to trash 3rd Raikage. 



> The latter is more useful for what he wanted to do against the Raikage, thus the comments. [1]


I've seen you literally suggest KCM Naruto would've been as good, if not better at doing what SM Naruto did to the Raikage. 

Don't deny it, I have no issue searching for and finding those posts by you. 



> Which is exactly what would happen with Jinton.


You're getting ridiculous dude.

3rd Raikage can anticipate blindside attacks indefinitely because you want him to?


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yep, support ability far above the 3rd Raikage, army annhilator, and he beats him 1 on 1.



AAA is better at fighting armies and beats Mū in a fight. As for support? He's probably worse. Berserkers don't "support."



DaVizWiz said:


> Itachi isn't high kage, he's literally weaker than Mu and would lose to him with full knowledge.



With no knowledge, Itachi one-shots Mū.

With manga knowledge, Itachi one-shots Mū.

With full knowledge, Itachi clone feints Mū & lights him on fire when Mū becomes visible to attack the clone.

Itachi is either beating Mū with no diff or mid dif.



DaVizWiz said:


> I've seen you literally suggest KCM Naruto would've been as good, if not better at doing what SM Naruto did to the Raikage.



What, you mean in the past? Dog I change my mind like every two weeks. I'm always learning new shit or thinking about shit differently. 



DaVizWiz said:


> Nope, can't anticipate an attack from an enemy who can appear from behind him without warning.



Uh, he can just continuously look in every direction. If Mū has to become visible to use Dust Release, then the invisibility thing borders on useless. It helps break line of sight, but that doesn't mean squadoosh against a guy with super reflexes & speed.


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## Matty (Nov 7, 2015)

People forgetting Sandaime Kazekage


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 7, 2015)

Naruto
Hashirama

Minato
Tobirama / Tsunade
Muu / Gengetsu
Onoki
Gaara
Sandaime Raikage
Ei
Yagura
Mei
Sandaime Kazekage
Rasa (in a desert)
Hiruzen Sarutobi

I'm not sure where to place Kakashi..maybe a tie with Hiruzen?​​


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## Itachi san88 (Nov 7, 2015)

Hashirama

Minato/Tobirama
Muu / Gengetsu
Onoki
Sandaime Raikage
Gaara
Ei
Yagura
Tsunade
Hiruzen Sarutobi
Mei
Sandaime Kazekage
Rasa (in a desert)


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## Zuhaitz (Nov 7, 2015)

My list:

Top Kage:
-Naruto
-Hashirama

High Kage:
-Muu
-Tobirama
-Minato
-Gengetsu
-3rd Raikage
-Gaara
-Oonoki

Mid Kage:
-A
-Tsunade
-Darui
-Mei
-Hiruzen
-3rd Kazekage
-Yagura

Low Kage:
-Kurotsuchi
-Choujuro
-Rasa (in the desert)
-Kakashi


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## Vice (Nov 7, 2015)

Naruto
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
Mu
Sandaime Raikage
Onoki
Gengetsu
A
Danzo
Yagura
Gaara
Sandaime Kazekage
Tsunade
Rasa
Mei
Kakashi
Hiruzen
Darui
Kurotsuchi


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## Ghost (Nov 7, 2015)

Hashirama


Minato
Tobirama

Ei
Sandaime (Raikage)
Onoki/Muu

Tsunade
Gaara
Gengetsu
Sandaime Kazekage

Rasa
Mei
Hiruzen


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## FlamingRain (Nov 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He literally attacked all four of them initially, then sealed Rasa because he was preventing Gaara from sealing the others.



Because Gaara can make his attacks large enough to hit all four of them at once. Rasa was still his primary focus from the start _(1)_ _(2)_ _(3)_. Gaara sealed Rasa for the same reason he tried sealing the other Edo Tensei, it just worked on Rasa the first time.

The thing I was interested in addressing was the comment about needing Ohnoki against Mū because of Jinton, though. I think the point I was making still holds. They would've needed to get rid of Mū and Rasa first i order to keep the largest number of troops alive.


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## Turrin (Nov 7, 2015)

@Rocky

The Alliance didn't expect Temari and Fodder to defeat Sandaime and Gengetsu. Gaara simply relied on them to hold those 2 off while he went to support Onoki. Gaara likely knew Onoki was having a tough time against Mu and made the strategic decision, that by aiding Onoki in defeating Mu he could free up Onoki to support him against the other 2 Edo Kages. So it was not a result of underestimating anyone it was a resolute of Gaara considering their threat appropriately and knowing he needed back up. The only underestimation there was perhaps with Gengetsu, because the alliance made a choice to have Onoki engage Mu as the primary threat, and instead he could have been sent after Gengetsu. Now you could say they underestimated Sandaime by not sending Onoki after him, but the difference is the manga made a point of Gengetsu being >= Mu, and Gaara acknowledging that Gengetsu was underestimated; and most importantly Gengetsu's former student or fucking family member wasn't sitting in Alliance HQ agreeing that Mu was a bigger threat than him, like was the case with Sandaime.

As far as sending Ei goes, they wished to avoid sending Ei at nearly all costs because he was commander-and-chief. We saw that when Ei wished to go fight, not his father, but Gin/Kin. Tsunade was also held back due her support specialties. And Mei was guarding the Daimyo. So all three of them were indisposed unless the situation turned absolutely dire, I.E. a Rinnegan Wielding Madara.


Your asking people to believe Sandaime's own son fucked up his assesment of his father's strength; and Onoki (a fellow Jinton user  & Mu's student) also fucked up considering he agreed with this assessment. And why? Because you subjectively think speed > Jinton. Well guess what it isn't, because even if we accept the highly unrealistic prospect that both Onoki/Ei whiffed on their assessments of characters they should have full knowledge of, Ei whose speed is >= Sandaime, agreed with the alliance's logic that only Onoki could combat Jinton, meaning Ei himself admitted he could not prevail against Jinton.

So your basically calling Ei wrong about both his own capabilities as well as his fathers. Calling Onoki wrong about Jinton's capabilities and his former master. 

This is just downright fucking silly and you know it


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Gaara simply relied on them to hold those 2 off while he went to support Onoki.





You mean the alliance relied on them to die in order to stall hoping that Ōnoki could win.



Turrin said:


> Gaara likely knew Onoki was having a tough time against Mu and made the strategic decision, that by aiding Onoki in defeating Mu he could free up Onoki to support him against the other 2 Edo Kages.



I'm not talking about Gaara's decision. I'm talking about sending Ōnoki out there in the first place. If Naruto doesn't show up, guess what the result of the alliance's plan is?

Ōnoki's back gives, and he dies. Mū, who is not tired because of the immortality thing, kills Gaara. There's no plotruto clone there to redirect Sandaime's Nukite back at him, nor is Gaara there to stop Gengetsu, so that entire division proceeds to die.

It's possible that the allied forces could have sent reinforcements if Mū had killed Gaara & Ōnoki to stop everything from going to shit, but their original plan, the one that involved Ōnoki stopping Mū, was terrible. 

They overestimated Jinton, which resulted in the overestimation of Mū and the _disgusting_ overestimation of Ōnoki himself. I'm not sure which was worse: thinking Mū could only be stopped by Jinton, or thinking Ōnoki could beat Mū just because Ōnoki could use Jinton.



Turrin said:


> Gengetsu's former student or fucking family member wasn't sitting in Alliance HQ agreeing that Mu was a bigger threat than him, like was the case with Sandaime.



What about "they overestimated Jinton" don't you understand? The allied forces thought that Ōnoki was the only one who could stop Mū because of Jinton. 

Turns out they were wrong, because a Naruto clone showed up and put a hole through Mū in ten seconds with Rasengan, and he can't use Jinton. 



Turrin said:


> So all three of them were indisposed unless the situation turned absolutely dire, I.E. a Rinnegan Wielding Madara.



The situation _was_ "dire" until Naruto and his plot-shielded clones came to save the day. 



Turrin said:


> And why? Because you subjectively think speed > Jinton.





Much subjective.

So wow.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 7, 2015)

@Rocky 

So let me get this straight, your argument is now:

1) Ei didn't know his own father's strength
2) Onoki didn't know Jinton's strength
3) Onoki didn't know Mu's strength
4) Alliance overestimated Mu/Jinton because Mu exceeded their expectations and defeated thee only man in the alliance capable of defeating Mu
5) Alliance overestimated Mu/Jinton because Naruto could defeat Mu, even though Naruto wasn't part of the alliance forces, when that statement was made.



Just so i'm clear on what your expecting me to believe here.


Edit: Oh and Speed > Jinton, because Naruto hit Mu which literally had nothing to do with speed and everything to do with Mu not expecting Naruto to be able to pivot in mid air and extend his attack thanks to chakra arms and Gaara, while  ignoring that when it was just pure speed, against Mu, Naruto's attempt was casually side stepped:


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> 4) Alliance overestimated Mu/Jinton because Mu exceeded their expectations and defeated thee only man in the alliance capable of defeating Mu
> 
> 5) Alliance overestimated Mu/Jinton because Naruto could defeat Mu, even though Naruto wasn't part of the alliance forces, when that statement was made.



I really hope you aren't serious.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I really hope you aren't serious.


Rocky you literally just made the argument that Mu was overestimated because he defeated Onoki; your words not mine.

Personally I tend to believe that a Jinton master and Sandaime's son have some understanding of their masters and father's abilities, but nah that's crazy talk.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Oh and Speed > Jinton, because Naruto hit Mu which literally had nothing to do with speed





*Naruto uses chakra arms* 

*gets there faster*


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Rocky you literally just made the argument that Mu was overestimated because he defeated Onoki; your words not mine.



I guess I have to go basic.

Jinton was overestimated. 

As a result, Mū was overestimated, and Ōnoki was grossly overestimated. 

It does not go Mū > Ōnoki > any possible combination of shinobi the allied forces could have sent to fight Mū. If you think that, reevaluate your views.

Kishimoto did not believe that Jinton was the only way to stop Jinton. If Kishimoto thought that, Mū getting boat raced by a dude that _cannot_ use Jinton wouldn't have been a thing in the manga.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I guess I have to go basic.
> 
> Jinton was overestimated.
> 
> As a result, Mū was overestimated, and Ōnoki was grossly overestimated.


Oh I see, so you think a Jinton user did not know Jinton's capabilities. Clearly your argument so much more coherent than garbage mess I thought it was 



> It does not go Mū > Ōnoki > any possible combination of shinobi the allied forces could have sent to fight Mū. If you think that, reevaluate your views.


 Telling me about reevaluating my views based on your fannon. The alliance was saying Onoki was the only individual that could beat Mu 1v1, not that Mu would solo the entire alliance if not for Onoki. I mean is there no limit to how mentally fucking challenged, your going to make the alliance HQ out to be, in-order to try and perpetuate your transparently bias agenda?



> Kishimoto did not believe that Jinton was the only way to stop Jinton. If Kishimoto thought that, Mū getting boat raced by a dude that cannot use Jinton wouldn't have been a thing in the manga.


Dude if Kishimoto didn't want Mu to be seen as a bigger threat than Sandaime, he wouldn't have made that point in the first place. He would have just had Onoki go fight him because he's Onoki's former master and they have an emotional connection. There was literally no point in making Mu out to be that sort of threat, other than distinguishing him above Rasa and Sandaime; and indicating how powerful Jinton is, which came full circle when Jinton was one off if not thee main weapon allowing the Gokage to initially stay afloat against Madara



			
				Rocky;54682590
[SIZE="1" said:
			
		

> *Naruto uses chakra arms*[/SIZE]



Please spare me your BS, if Gaara wasn't there Naruto's attempt to use speed would have ended in him being side stepped and blasted with Jinton. Speed would have failed against Jinton.

Gaara providing an arial pivot point is the moment this stops becoming about pure speed being enough to beat Mu, and about the utilization of multiple abilities to give Naruto an opening to hit Mu.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Oh I see, so you think a Jinton user did not know Jinton's capabilities.



He did not if he actually thought you needed Jinton to beat Jinton.



Turrin said:


> The alliance was saying Onoki was the only individual that could beat Mu 1v1, not that Mu would solo the entire alliance if not for Onoki.



1.) The alliance was wrong in thinking 79-year-old Ōnoki could win.

2.) The alliance was wrong in thinking there was nobody besides 79-year-old Ōnoki who stood a chance at winning.

3.) Sending Ōnoki was retarded, and I know I'm right on that because Ōnoki was on the verge of being obliterated if it weren't for Naruto's unexpected arrival. 



Turrin said:


> Gaara providing an arial pivot point is the moment this stops becoming about pure speed being enough to beat Mu, and about the utilization of multiple abilities to give Naruto an opening to hit Mu.



"Pure speed" isn't enough to do anything other than go fast. Naruto paneled Mū by unexpectedly upping the speed of planetary Rasengan so that it would land faster than Jinton activates.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

They didn't factor Naruto into anything because he was supposed to be kept under watch and never to even step foot on the battlefield.

Onoki was the only one present who could handle Mu, Naruto arriving unexpected to wreck his shit wasn't something that anyone was counting on.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

I'm fully aware they didn't factor in Naruto. It wouldn't have mattered because Naruto cannot use Jinton, which is the terrible logic they used as justification for sending Ōnoki to his death. Meanwhile, AAA & Gengetsu tore apart the first & fourth divisions, who were basically waiting for Ōnoki & Gaara to save them, which wouldn't have happened because both of them would have been dead.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 7, 2015)

Ay would have had a decent shot against Mū imo.

He just wouldn't be a good choice to use against him when they have an army to protect.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

What happened needed to happen because of the plot. The plot wanted Naruto to save the day.

If the alliance had the knowledge on the characters that we have (and they should probably have far more), then as soon as Gaara engages as he did in the story, then allied forces drop v2 Raikage in front of the Edo Kage with Tensō no Jutsu, and Mū gets cut in half. 

Raikage can then fight his father (which is bound to be a lengthy brawl) while Gaara finishes off Rasa and moves on to Gengetsu. Instead of being sent to his death, a _fresh_ Ōnoki plays a support role, helping Gaara clean up with Gengetsu, and both move on to assist A in finishing the third Raikage. Cannon fodder can butt in when necessary. _Naruto is not needed. _

In the manga, they sent Ōnoki on a suicide mission, and left the other two kage to the likes of Temari & Dodai. That defines retardation.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He did not if he actually thought you needed Jinton to beat Jinton.
> .


For the fourth time Rocky, it's that within the alliance only Onoki could counter Mu, because he had Jinton; not that Jinton is necessary to counter Jinton. It's that Onoki having Jinton put him on a level where he could step to Mu in a way the others could not.



Rocky said:


> 1.) The alliance was wrong in thinking 79-year-old Ōnoki could win.


They weren't saying Onoki would win 10/10 times, they were saying Onoki was the only one who could do it. I can beat my friend in Chess, but it doesn't mean I'll win every time.



> he alliance was wrong in thinking there was nobody besides 79-year-old Ōnoki who stood a chance at winning.


There is nothing in the manga to support this assertion, and if you show me Naruto again when he wasn't fucking in the alliance at that time, I'm going to laugh my ass off.



> Sending Ōnoki was retarded, and I know I'm right on that because Ōnoki was on the verge of being obliterated if it weren't for Naruto's unexpected arrival.


The thing is you have no proof anyone could have done better 1v1 with Mu, and have to make the alliance HQ into blithering morons to even try and make an argument that someone could have.



> "Pure speed" isn't enough to do anything other than go fast. Naruto paneled Mū by unexpectedly upping the speed of planetary Rasengan so that it would land faster than Jinton activates.


Yes, but Mu wasn't out done by the speed port, he evaded Naruto's previous attack which was closer to him and coming from behind easily, he was outdone by the unexpected part. And it wasn't just upping speed, it was also Gaara providing a pivot point Mid-Air.

So to say Naruto "beat" Mu there due to speed, is utter BS.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kishimoto did not believe that Jinton was the only way to stop Jinton. If Kishimoto thought that, Mū getting boat raced by a dude that _cannot_ use Jinton wouldn't have been a thing in the manga.



Only the Sharingan can beat the Sharingan.

p1 VotE Sasuke = top tier.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Nov 7, 2015)

Mu is stronger than Sandaime , and so is Troll , think about it like this besides just hype , it took Onoki and Gaara to both take on Troll and he was only defeated because he was feeding info to them , it took Onoki + Gaara + KCM Naruto to take out only a fraction of Mu who wasn't at full power , yet Dat clone that was utilizing SM was basically capable of taking out Sandaime himself 

Jinton isn't > Speed of course not but its >Raikage's speed we see that in the hype Mu got over Sandaime and we see that when Onoki outperformed A in the war by a large margin anyone who cant grasp that either lacks reading comprehension or just a bias troll


----------



## Crow (Nov 7, 2015)

Hokage

Naruto Uzumaki
Hashirama Senju
Minato Namikaze
Tobirama Senju
Hiruzen Sarutobi
Tsunade Senju
Kakashi Hatake (No Sharingan)
Danzo Shimura


Mizukage

Gengetsu Hozuki
Yagura
Mei Terumi


Tsuchikage

Mu
Onoki

Kazekage

Sandaime Kazekage (Hailed to be the Strongest
Gaara
Rasa

Raikage

Third Raikage
A
Darui

My list


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> For the fourth time Rocky, it's that within the alliance only Onoki could counter Mu, because he had Jinton; not that Jinton is necessary to counter Jinton.



If the allied forces thought that Ōnoki was their only way of countering Mū, then they are retarded. 



Turrin said:


> They weren't saying Onoki would win 10/10 times, they were saying Onoki was the only one who could do it. I can beat my friend in Chess, but it doesn't mean I'll win every time.



They weren't sending Ōnoki to play chess. They were sending him into a war. If he lost, he died, so they thought he had a favorable chance to win. That makes them retarded, because he had no chance to win. 



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> The alliance was wrong in thinking there was nobody besides 79-year-old Ōnoki who stood a chance at winning.





Turrin said:


> There is nothing in the manga to support this assertion







Turrin said:


> The thing is you have no proof anyone could have done better 1v1 with Mu







Turrin said:


> Mu wasn't out done by the speed port, he evaded Naruto's previous attack which was closer to him and coming from behind easily, he was outdone by the unexpected part.



The unexpected increase in speed.


----------



## Santoryu (Nov 7, 2015)

I think the author portrayed Onoki to be a cut above the other Gokage during the battle with  Madara.


but not enough to warrant a tier gap imo.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)




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## Turrin (Nov 7, 2015)

@Rocky



> They weren't sending Ōnoki to play chess. They were sending him into a war. If he lost, he died, so they thought he had a favorable chance to win. That makes them retarded, because he had no chance to win.


Dude the alliance could not dedicate their forces in such a way that they ensured victory on every front. It's not like the alliance had such an overwhelmingly more powerful force than Kabuto and Obito, that they had that luxury. They had to make tough decisions like sending Onoki to take on Mu, even if Onoki was not guaranteed to win. 

There are plenty of battles in the war that you can point to and say, if X character was commanded to aid Y character, than the losses on that front would be minimized, however in doing so, the alliance would be taking other risks. 



> The alliance was wrong in thinking there was nobody besides 79-year-old Ōnoki who stood a chance at winning.


First off in all honesty Gai would still loose to Mu as Mu would turn invisible and Gai could go 8th-Gate until he died, w/o being able to find Mu. Secondly you can't even prove that Alliance HQ knew that Gai could go 8th-Gate or how powerful 8th-Gate was; or that Gai would willing sign up for a suicide mission the likes of hey, Gai your going to go 8th-Gate, kill yourself, to take out Mu.

Once you prove those things you can use the Gai argument, otherwise.

Anyway, all I want you to say is this, "I Rocky think I know better than Onoki about the capabilities of Jinton and Ei about his own capabilities" and I'll leave you alone,


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Hashirama

Minato

Tobirama
Danzo
Onoki
A
Mu
Sandaime Raikage
Gengetsu

Gaara
Tsunade
3rd Kazekage
Mei 

Rasa
Darui
Hiruzen


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 7, 2015)

*Top Tier*

1. Naruto

*Tier 2*

2. Hashirama

*Tier 3*

3. Minato/Tobirama

*Tier 4*

4. A3/A4
5. Danzo
6. Mu/Gengetsu
7. Oonoki
8. Tsunade
9. Yagura
10. 3rd Kazekage
11. Gaara
12. Rasa

*Tier 5*

13. Hiruzen (old)
14. Mei


You could switch around the order in Tier 4 to suit your preference, but I don't think anyone could successfully argue against the tier separation. Maybe lump Tier 5 into the bottom of Tier 4 if you prefer, but I don't think anyone in their right mind is going to question Minato and Tobirama being a cut above the other Kage, Hashirama above them, and Naruto on another level above them all.


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> *Top Tier*
> 
> 1. Naruto
> 
> ...



Thank god someone sane, Hiruzen >>>.Mei , at least IMO. I personally think the Kazekage outside of Gaara were all garbage tier though. Sue me.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 7, 2015)

All the Kazekage were shit, including Gaara. Lol.

But I did think Satetsu was pretty cool.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 7, 2015)

I could argue for Gaara being in low with Mei.

That's assuming he isn't in favourable conditions like 90% of the manga.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 7, 2015)

If Hiruzen gives Mei any sort of difficulty she just melts him with Futon. 

And the only way I see him giving her difficulty is if he pulls out Kage Bunshin and combines all of his elements, but even that is no guarantee of a win. Mei can blind his vision with Kirigakure no Jutsu, and has the means to match 4/5 of his elemental ninjutsu. 

Though Alive Hiruzen doesn't ICly use Kage Bunshin on a whim like that, so it probably isn't a factor anyway.

And wtf is with all of this Gaara underestimation. Low Kage? He's way stronger than Rasa, Danzou, Chiyo and others in that tier.​​


----------



## Zuhaitz (Nov 7, 2015)

< Naruto didn't defeat Muu, not only because it was a combination of Oonoki+Gaara+Naruto's clone that fought him, but also because Muu was one of the few Edos that wasn't defeated and was freed by Itachi and Sasuke.

Out of the Edo Kages:
-Rasa was defeated by Gaara who showed to be simply > Rasa and =>Shukaku -> 1 Mid Kage level character defeated him.
-Raikage was defeated by Naruto SM clone with the help of an elite jounin of komogakure. -> 1 Mid Kage level (because it was a single clone, not the original or many clones) + 1 elite jounin defeated him.
-Gengentsu was defeated by Oonoki, Gaara and some fodders -> 1 High Kage + 1 Mid Kage + a bunch of fodders defeated him.
-Muu survived till he was freed, but half of him was defeated by Naruto's KCM clone, Oonoki and Gaara, with a combination surprise attack -> 1 High Kage + 2 Mid Kages were necessary to defeat half of him.

Muu>Gengetsu=>Raikage>>>Rasa

Infact Muu had hyped to be extraordinary, he has the same kind of hype Minato and Tobirama were given, and his style and techniques are as deadly and unique.

Imo there's a level for those high kage level ninjas that don't reach legends level (Hashirama, Madara, Naruto, Sasuke, Toneri, etc), but that are well above what a single (low) high level Kage ninja can dish. In the same level as Itachi, Kabuto, Tobirama, Minato, Muu, etc. With Nagato being the strange case that it's closer to the legends in raw power.

No one is gonna rank the current kages based on hype and the movie feats?

As for Gaara he started the war as (low) Mid Kage level, and ended up being a (mid) high level Kage. EoS Gaara should be a solid (high) High level Kage, on par with Tobirama for example.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 7, 2015)

Gaara's sand mom which is his strongest defense that he can quickly use was busted by Madara's weakest Yasaka. Most of his better feats take place in a desert. His physical stats are dwarfed by Elite Jounin.

Put him in a field or a forest and he is no better then someone like Rasa, Hiruzen or Mei. The only reason he's even rated highly is because he has a rabid, 12 year old fanbase.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 7, 2015)

It wasn't Madara's weakest Magatama, it was arguably his strongest, unless his Perfect Susano'o can use them too. And anyway, Magatama pack a lot of punch, so getting his sand defense ploughed through by them is hardly an embarrassing feat.

Gaara can break earth down into huge amounts of sand very quickly, hence your insane underestimation of his abilities. Rasa can only combine Gold Dust into _pre-existing_ sand, whereas Gaara can make sand on any battlefield. So no, he still trumps his father, as per canon. Mei gives him a lot of difficulty but he usually still trumps her.​​


----------



## Matty (Nov 7, 2015)

All kazekage sucked besides the 3rd. He was the only one with true potential. Sucks he wasn't brought back for the 3rd war, probably would've been really haxxed. How Sasori ever captured him i'll never understand.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Nov 7, 2015)

Gaara can create deserts in matter of minutes.
And he is one of the most versatile shinobis.

He can fly, he has many sensing methods, he has many sealing and killing methods, and his attacks were compared to that of Bijuus.

His defense is one of the best, not his mother, neither his sand sphere, neither his sand amour, but the combination of all that.

His reflex are great, being able to react to 8gated Gai, Madara, and Minato.

By the end of the war he would have defeated Gengetsu in a 1 vs 1, and was able to fight Bijuus like the sandaime Rikage and was about on par with the likes of Muu.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 7, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> It wasn't Madara's weakest Magatama, it was arguably his strongest, unless his Perfect Susano'o can use them too. And anyway, Magatama pack a lot of punch, so getting his sand defense ploughed through by them is hardly an embarrassing feat.
> 
> Gaara can break earth down into huge amounts of sand very quickly, hence your insane underestimation of his abilities. Rasa can only combine Gold Dust into _pre-existing_ sand, whereas Gaara can make sand on any battlefield. So no, he still trumps his father, as per canon. Mei gives him a lot of difficulty but he usually still trumps her.​​


It's a weaker variant because you can upsize them to Bijuudama size. *[1]*

That particular Magatama getting through his defense is laughable. Any Kage worth their salt can output the same amount of destructive power.

He still needs time to grind sand, time that most opponents won't give him. Yes he's stronger then Rasa and Mei, enough to be on a higher tier? No. They give him a hard time if he doesn't start in conditions favourable to him.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 7, 2015)

Yet he used a smaller version on Tsunade, showing that that variant was not his weakest.

Gaara's sand has tanked kicks from Kimimaro, Ei and even from entire buildings landing on top of it, so clearly Madara's Magatama had a very high damage output, moreso than the arsenals of many Mid and even High-tier Kage.

Mei isn't a Low-Kage for a start, she's a Mid-Kage, which is why she's able to put pressure on Gaara.

Rasa, _in favourable conditions_, got defeated very quickly by Gaara. 

Hell, Gengetsu named Gaara as a golden egg among the Gokage. He's obviously not a Low-Kage.​​


----------



## Zuhaitz (Nov 7, 2015)

That was the second time Gaara ever used that defense, judging his actual power by that It's like judging Naruto's FRS by what he did to Kakuzu.


----------



## Kyu (Nov 7, 2015)

*Demi-God Tier*
1.) Naruto Uzumaki

_--massive gap--_

*Top-Tier Kage*
2.) Hashirama Senju

_--massive gap--_

*High-Tier Kage*
3.)Minato Namikaze
4.)Tobirama Senju
5.)Sandaime Raikage
6/7.)Muu/Gengetsu Hozuki
8.)Yondaime Raikage
9.)Onoki

*Upper Mid-tier Kage*
10.)Yagura
11.)Tsunade
12.)Sandaime Kazekage
13.)Gaara

*Total Ass Tier*
14.)Kakashi Hatake (EoS)
15.)Hiruzen Sarutobi
16.)Mei Terumi
17.)Rasa


----------



## Ersa (Nov 7, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Yet he used a smaller version on Tsunade, showing that that variant was not his weakest.
> 
> Gaara's sand has tanked kicks from Kimimaro, Ei and even from entire buildings landing on top of it, so clearly Madara's Magatama had a very high damage output, moreso than the arsenals of many Mid and even High-tier Kage.
> 
> ...


It's the middle ground between what he used on Tsunade and Itachi's Bijuudama sized one and it's firepower most mid Kages can replicate (Jinton, Nukite, C3, Daikodan, Kirin just to name some). Yes I'm gonna go ahead and say attacks that level mountains and towns are stronger then Madara's mid-level Magatama. 

Stopping kicks from Ei and half-dead Kimimaro is a sub-par defensive feat at best.

Every mid-Kage wins very comfortably against Mei (Tsunade, Ei, 3rd Raikage, Gengetsu, Hebi Sasuke). She's not on their level, mainly because she got shafted by Kishimoto in the feats and hype department.

Hm, like the conditions weren't favourable for Gaara. Itachi could be considered top tier too if every fight start at 5m with no knowledge. Just because his feats took place in the optimal location for him doesn't suggest he's mid-Kage for me.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Nov 7, 2015)

1- Gaara stopped Gengetsu's jockey boy explosion.
2-Gaara stopped with Oonoki Madara's giant meteor.
3-Gaara stopped several meteor from the moon (The last)

Using Gaara's usage of a technique as a basis of its power 

4-Mei overpowered Madara's katon
5-Mei destroyed Sasuke's first attempt of Susanoo
6-Mei stopped and destroyed meteors from the moon.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 8, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> If Hiruzen gives Mei any sort of difficulty she just melts him with Futon.
> 
> And the only way I see him giving her difficulty is if he pulls out Kage Bunshin and combines all of his elements, but even that is no guarantee of a win. Mei can blind his vision with Kirigakure no Jutsu, and has the means to match 4/5 of his elemental ninjutsu.



Hiruzen can block or intercept with any basic Ninjutsu (such as a Doton wall or a Katon), proceed to flank her with clones, and overwhelm her with Enma staff shenanigans that Orochimaru couldn't handle.

He's a better and more versatile fighter than she is, even if she outclasses him slightly in raw power. Lowering Hiruzen's visibility with Kirigakure won't work either, because he could still accurately pinpoint Orochimaru and his Edo Tensei by scent when his visibility was completely zero in Hashirama's Bringer of Darkness Genjutsu.



> And wtf is with all of this Gaara underestimation. Low Kage? He's way stronger than Rasa, Danzou, Chiyo and others in that tier.



Danzo scrubs the floor with Gaara. Baku inhales all of his sand while Danzo takes him with Fuuton swipes from the rear. Or he can just Izanagi respawn under Gaara's sand wall and hit him with the paralyzing seal.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 8, 2015)

Yeah Danzou shits on Gaara so hard his hair turns brown.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 8, 2015)

Mei kills Rasa with taijutsu.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 8, 2015)




----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 8, 2015)

People putting Rasa over Mei or even Hiruzen amuses me.

Dude got foddered,, twice, and has zero feats. Get shit on you're BOTTOM tier Rasa.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 8, 2015)

*Fairy Tale Tier*

Hashirama

*Hokages too OP, nerf plz Tier* (not in order here)

Tobirama
Minato
Danzo(Koto)
Hiruzen Prime(Hype)

*Worthy of respect Tier*

Onoki(Will of Stone)
Mu/Gengetsu
3A(Amber Pot)
4A
Tsunade
Yagura(Hype)
3rd KK
Old Hiruzen(Hype)
Gaara

*Meh Tier*

Old Hiruzen(P1 feats)
Mei
Rasa
Darui


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2015)

Why are you posting an anime caption of something that didn't happen in the manga POW?


----------



## Zuhaitz (Nov 8, 2015)

LOL Do anyone really think that Danzou has any chance against Gaara?

Gaara would crush his summon and then seal Danzou while Danzou tries desperately to hit Gaara even once. 

EoS Gaara>end of the war saga Gaara>beginning of the war saga Gaara=Kage summon Gaara => Danzou.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 8, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> It's the middle ground between what he used on Tsunade and Itachi's Bijuudama sized one and it's firepower most mid Kages can replicate (Jinton, Nukite, C3, Daikodan, Kirin just to name some). Yes I'm gonna go ahead and say attacks that level mountains and towns are stronger then Madara's mid-level Magatama.



Nice, but you said it was his weakest Magatama form. I'm just pointing out that you're wrong. Anyway, his mother's shield isn't his strongest defense, and the strength of his defense alone isn't what makes him Mid-Kage level either.



> Stopping kicks from Ei and half-dead Kimimaro is a sub-par defensive feat at best.



Yet Ei is a Mid-Kage level, and threw one of his strongest attacks. So I'd say that that is an impressive feat. Granted, other Mid-Kage have the means to throw attacks more powerful than Ei's drop kick, but only with their most powerful techniques, which they reserve for last resorts ie. Daikodan, Kirin, Hirudora etc. In other words, many Mid-Kage level need to use their trump cards just to get past Gaara's _base_ defense..which speaks volumes of his power. 

Remember, he stopped Ei and Kimimaro's attacks using just his _gourd sand_. With more sand at his disposal his shields become much stronger. Granted, fast or taijutsu orientated opponents might not allow him the time to break down large amounts of earth into sand, but many Mid-Kage are neither exceptionally fast nor able to break his gourd sand shield fast enough to stop him (like Kisame, Kakuzu or Mei). Also, in a desert, Gaara doesn't need to break down earth into sand, so his shields are much stronger.



> Every mid-Kage wins very comfortably against Mei (Tsunade, Ei, 3rd Raikage, Gengetsu, Hebi Sasuke). She's not on their level, mainly because she got shafted by Kishimoto in the feats and hype department.



Tsunade doesn't win without having to use Byakugou, and getting burned significantly.

Ei has a hell of a time finding Mei if she uses Kirigakure no Jutsu, and might end up taking a lot of damage if she fires lots of wide AOE ninjutsu that he can't see coming. Sandaime Raikage shares a similar fate, but is just more resistant to damage.

Gengetsu is going to get boiled by Mei's Acidic mist regardless if he's using Genjutsu or not, and he definitely takes damage from it before he's able to kill her with explosions.

Hebi Sasuke takes damage from Acid Mist too.

None of these opponents are coming out of the match unscathed, and if they aren't careful they could die. She is definitely on their level, even if she is lower down in their tier bracket.



> Hm, like the conditions weren't favourable for Gaara. Itachi could be considered top tier too if every fight start at 5m with no knowledge. Just because his feats took place in the optimal location for him doesn't suggest he's mid-Kage for me.



Yeah, but the difference is that Gaara can use sand regardless of the battlefield he's on, whereas Rasa can only use it in a desert. Even in a desert, he was more advantaged than his son was.​​


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 8, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> LOL Do anyone really think that Danzou has any chance against Gaara?
> 
> Gaara would crush his summon and then seal Danzou while Danzou tries desperately to hit Gaara even once.
> 
> EoS Gaara>end of the war saga Gaara>beginning of the war saga Gaara=Kage summon Gaara => Danzou.



Danzo rips him apart with a fuuton.  He is on a different level.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 8, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Hiruzen can block or intercept with any basic Ninjutsu (such as a Doton wall or a Katon), proceed to flank her with clones, and overwhelm her with Enma staff shenanigans that Orochimaru couldn't handle.



While he's melting in boiling steam? It's invisible too, so it's not like he can just evade it. But even if he could fight inside of it, his attacks and reactions are going to be even slower than usual. Who is to say he'd be able to react to her giant suitons in time, or a lava glob at close range.



> He's a better and more versatile fighter than she is, even if she outclasses him slightly in raw power. Lowering Hiruzen's visibility with Kirigakure won't work either, because he could still accurately pinpoint Orochimaru and his Edo Tensei by scent when his visibility was completely zero in Hashirama's Bringer of Darkness Genjutsu.



Hiruzen couldn't pinpoint Hashirama and Tobirama without sustaining a lot of damage first, it took some trial and error. Both of those Edo Hashirama and Tobirama incarnations were a lot weaker than Mei too. He certainly isn't defenceless inside of the mist, but it's not like his ability to smell her means he can flawlessly track her exact location 24/7. Even Kiba can't do that.



> Danzo scrubs the floor with Gaara. Baku inhales all of his sand while Danzo takes him with Fuuton swipes from the rear. Or he can just Izanagi respawn under Gaara's sand wall and hit him with the paralyzing seal.



If tidal waves of sand get sucked up by Baku then Gaara is able to manipulate it from the inside, like he did with Madara. So GG Baku. Fuuton swipes inside of Baku's suction might get past Gaara's shield and hit him, but there are a lot of _ifs_ involved there.

Like assuming that Gaara doesn't just switch out with a Suna Bunshin.

And assuming that Gaara doesn't summon a wave of sand from behind Baku and crush it's head or seal it before it's able to initiate it's suction.

And assuming that a strong shield of sand and sand armour collectively aren't going to reduce the damage of Danzou's fuuton to the point that's it's damage output is rather insignificant.

At any rate, his sand armour prevents Danzou's seal from forming.

Danzou _might_ get lucky with a hit here or there, but Gaara has the means to intelligently retaliate and learn how to cope with the situation afterwards.​​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

Mei is not a mid tier because she doesn't beat any mid tiers. There are some low tiers, like Kakuzu & BoPII Sasuke, that would probably beat her.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Nov 8, 2015)

*hokage*

1. hashirama
2. BM minato
3. tobirama
4. hiruzen
5. tsuande
6. danzo

*kazekage*
1. gaara
2. 3rd kazekage
3. rasa

*tsuchikage*
1. mu
2. onoki_(maybe onoki is above mu with the will of stone)_

*mizukage*
1. yagura
2. gengetsu
3. mei

*raikage*
1. 3rd raikage
2. 4th raikage
3. darui


the best feat that darui has is pressuring momoshiki in cqc along with gaara. its a good feat considering that momoshiki couldnt damage either him or gaara, but its not something that would be on par with what the 3rd or 4th raikage have done.

*Spoiler*: __ 



_Gaara’s sand was stretching towards Momoshiki’s feet. Momoshiki leapt up, avoiding the sand by a hair’s breadth. But up in the sky, Darui was lying in wait.
“How to say this?” Darui said. “You’ll get destroyed at this rate, yknow.”
Darui used his muscles as a bullet of mass and swooped down on Momoshiki. Momoshiki evaded this attack, as well, however this too was only a diversion. Gaara with his Absolute Defence of sand was approaching from behind them!
“Don’t think that you can run away fro us.” he said.
“You low-grade beings!”
The swing of Momoshiki’s blade was stopped and caught by Gaara’s blade of sand._


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 8, 2015)

In that case, someone who is at the bottom of a tier bracket isn't part of the tier, which is illogical. Mei beats all Low-Kage levels, and is notably stronger than them. She also puts up a very good fight against several Mid-Kage. I think that is enough to warrant her position in the tier bracket.

Although, personally, I think she can defeat Kisame and Kakuzu. BofPII Sasuke too (not that he's a Mid-tier anyway).

@Rocky​​


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

My mid-tier in no specific order:

A
AAA
Ōnoki
Mū
Gengetsu
Jiraiya
Orochimaru 
Tsunade
War Kakashi
Gai
Danzō
Sasori
Summit Sasuke
Pain Naruto

Mei beats _none_ of them. Some of them murder her horribly.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> My mid-tier in no specific order:
> 
> A
> AAA
> ...



I think Sannin are bottom end High-tier, so are Mu and Gengetsu. War Kakashi, Pein Naruto and end of Summit arc Sasuke are middle of the High-Kage tier. 

I think Danzou and Sasori are bottom end Mid-Kage/top-end Low Kage, and I think she can beat the pair of them, albeit with great difficulty.​​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

I disagree, but I won't debate the tiers with you. 

Mei's only shot against Sasori would be lava preventing Sasori from escaping Hiruko. If the 3rd Kazekage comes out, she is dead.

She's dead regardless against Danzō. Like super dead. Super _duper_ dead. Danzō blows away any mist techniques with wind techniques. If Mei gets him with lava, he suddenly respawns behind her and stabs her with a wind knife low diff.

As for the people you had as mid-tiers, the Raikages & Gai speed blitz her & Ōnoki just blows through ninjutsu with Dust Release.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 8, 2015)

Mei is IMO underestimated because we rarely see her outside of a team setting, and she's much more threatening on her own, being a souped of version of Zabuza hiding in acid mist with bigger suitons.

Low Kage to me is a smaller tier of actual Kage, including weakened, prior Mid Kage like Old Hiruzen, Rusty Tsunade, etc. but full of many other individuals above Elite Jonin like Hanzo, Hidan, Mifune, etc.​


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

I agree with that. 

I don't think Mei is underestimated though. Nobody think's she's worse than Zabuza, and I have her a tier above Zabuza.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 8, 2015)

I think most Mid-tiers beat her, hence why she's low down on the tier bracket, but she's a cut above Low Kage, and so she shouldn't be placed with them. At the end of the day, I don't think the Gokage were portrayed as having significant power differences between one another. Onoki and Tsunade were the only ones who received special hype or portrayal, the others seemed to have small discrepancies in strength. 

Sandaime Kazekage would kill Mei if it used World Order, but I think it corrodes away with Sasori in a boiling steam before that happens.

Danzou can't locate Mei inside of the Kirigakure no Jutsu, and iirc he doesn't possess any fuuton that can disperse something that large. He might be able to push it away or cut it in half for a while, but it will drift back towards him again. He could use Baku to suck it up..but when she uses Futon inside of the mist, he won't know it's in effect, or even what it is, until it's too late. And Baku dies when it inhales boiling steam. That's why I think she defeats him.​​


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

My tiers are based on how (I believe) ninja actually do against other ninja. The portrayal of the five kage in general is difficult to determine. 

If Sasori's chakra strings corrode, which I didn't consider, then I'd agree that he's fucked. So maybe I'd consider placing her on the mid-tier as the weakest member, but Sasori would be the only one she could take, thanks to an amazing match up nonetheless, so I'd probably still leave her on the low tier. 

Not sold on Danzō. If he spins around while spewing a generic wind stream, the mist should disperse. If for whatever reason that doesn't work, then he's still got temporary immortality to figure it out. For me to say more, I'd need the thread conditions.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 8, 2015)

*Fairy Tale:*

Hashirama

*High Kage:*

Danzō (with Koto)
Tobirama
Minato
Tsunade ~ Ohnoki

*Kage:*

Mū ~ Gengetsu ~ Raikage Family
Elderly Sarutobi
Third Kazekage
Gaara
Mei

*Lightweight Kage:*

Kakashi
Yogurt
Rasa
Darui
Kurotsuchi
Chojuro


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> My tiers are based on how (I believe) ninja actually do against other ninja. The portrayal of the five kage in general is difficult to determine.



I try to factor in portrayal and databook stuff as far as I can too.



> If Sasori's chakra strings corrode, which I didn't consider, then I'd agree that he's fucked. So maybe I'd consider placing her on the mid-tier as the weakest member, but Sasori would be the only one she could take, thanks to an amazing match up nonetheless, so I'd probably still leave her on the low tier.



I consider Kakuzu as Mid-Kage too, and I think she has a shot against him so..I'd say he's the lowest in that tier bracket. If you think he's a Low-Kage, then I can see why you'd think she is bottom of the Mid-Kage tier.

 As for Sasori, I don't know if chakra can actually corrode, but his puppets can. She can up the acidity at will too, so I just don't see Sandaime Kazekage and Sasori lasting long enough to spew out enough Iron Sand to make World Order, and then for it to launch and hit Mei, before their limbs and joints start melting away.



> Not sold on Danzō. If he spins around while spewing a generic wind stream, the mist should disperse. If for whatever reason that doesn't work, then he's still got temporary immortality to figure it out. For me to say more, I'd need the thread conditions.



It's a mist, not a smoke cloud. It's pretty dense. I don't think it's easily dispersed by just spinning around with a generic fuuton. Still though, you're right about the conditions; knowledge and distance are kind of important. But the fact that you need to consider something like conditions at all shows how meagre the gap between Mei and Danzou is. I think she beats him more times than not, though.​​


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## Zuhaitz (Nov 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Danzo rips him apart with a fuuton.  He is on a different level.



Yes, he is on a different level, a lower one.

Danzou's fuuton are a joke to Gaara's defense and they were to Sasuke's most basic Susanoo.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 8, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Yes, he is on a different level, a lower one.
> 
> Danzou's fuuton are a joke to Gaara's defense and they were to Sasuke's most basic Susanoo.


Portrayal-wise Gaara is one of the weaker kages. Danzo was arguably the strongest kage at the summit. 

Susano'O > Gaara's defense.
Anything that can rip through Susano'o will rip through Gaara's defense along with Gaara himself.


----------



## Mithos (Nov 8, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Hiruzen couldn't pinpoint Hashirama and Tobirama without sustaining a lot of damage first, it took some trial and error. Both of those Edo Hashirama and Tobirama incarnations were a lot weaker than Mei too. He certainly isn't defenceless inside of the mist, but it's not like his ability to smell her means he can flawlessly track her exact location 24/7. Even Kiba can't do that.​​



Hiruzen took damage while he was prepping Shiki Fuujin, not while he was trying to track them. 

We can see him prepping the jutsu [1], and he asks "how much longer will it take?" [2] before he can use it [3]. Once it's ready to use, he says "Now all I have to do is catch them..." and has no trouble finding them or grabbing them [4]. There was no trial and error; he was able to track them on his first try. The problem was that he was vulnerable while waiting for Shiki Fuujin to take effect -- and even then, he was able to perceive their presence in total darkness and block their attacks. 

Now, I don't think he'll know exactly where she is at all times, but if there is someone who can fight effectively in Hidden Mist, I'd put my money on Hiruzen, from his feats.

That's not counting the fact that Hiruzen likely has plenty of Fuuton ninjutsu to disperse the mist and acid mist, judging from him having one powerful enough to counter one from the Buddha. 

Even Old, Hiruzen should be _at least_ mid-Kage in my opinion. He has no real weaknesses except a diminished stamina -- he's an expert in every facet of combat: long-range ninjutsu, the elements, genjutsu, taijutsu/CQC, strategy/analytical ability (shown when he countered the elements at once, and when he instantly deduced the nature and weakness of Juubito's attack). 

He has something to deal with pretty much every style of combat the mid-Kages use. His power doesn't lie in haxx jutsu, but in his ability to deal with almost anything thrown at him, and then outmaneuver the opponent.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Even Old, Hiruzen should be _at least_ mid-Kage in my opinion.
> 
> He has something to deal with pretty much every style of combat the mid-Kages use.





He cannot counter Jinton, super speed, senjutsu, or regeneration (without sacrifice). He's not beating any of the mid kage.


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## Mithos (Nov 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He cannot counter Jinton, super speed, senjutsu, or regeneration (without sacrifice). He's not beating any of the mid kage.



*A*: He can counter A's super speed though. Enma cage protects him, and Fuuton > A's shroud. While A powers up, Hiruzen casts a doton wall to stall or uses some other elemental ninjutsu to avoid an initial blitz. From there, Enma comes out, and Ei will have a tough time. 

A also has a tendency to attempt grapples, and while his movement speed is great, his striking speed isn't top-notch. It's not impossible that he gets out-maneuvered and trapped in the cage when get tries to karate chop or grab Hiruzen. 

Old Hiruzen was also considered the strongest of the 5 Kage, which included A at the time. 

Even if Hiruzen doesn't win, A is not winning easily. Hiruzen can compete, and that's what matters. 



*AAA*: Is this supposed to the Sandaime Raikage? If it is, it's basically the same, except having an easier time dealing with speed, but having a much harder time significantly damaging him. I think Temari and the other Futon uses damaged him a little bit and it showed him regenerating, but I don't know if I'm remembering that correctly. 

Hiruzen does pretty well, but likely loses out because of his poor stamina. 


*Ōnoki*: Hiruzen was considered stronger than Onoki in Part 1. Other than that, I don't know how this match would play out. Hiruzen is clearly aware of how Jinton works, but I don't know how he would counter it exactly. Feints + clones might work and give him an opening, especially since Onoki's stamina isn't great either. 

Probably one of Hiruzen's hardest MUs. 

*Mū*: Hiruzen can probably track him while he's invisible, so that negates Mu's biggest advantage. Like with Onoki, it comes down to whether or not he can outmaneuver Mu. If he doesn't, he gets disintegrated eventually. 

*Gengetsu*: Hiruzen should win this one. Doton > Suiton, and Hiruzen should be able to block Joki Boi's explosions with doton or Enma. Hiruzen has canonically countered sight-based genjutsu with his nose, so I don't think Gengetsu's main form of fighting is going to work. And since Joki Boi leaves Gengetsu weakened, if Hiruzen has a Shadow Clone and Enma fend off Joki Boi, he should be able to find Gengetsu's real body and finish him off. 

*Jiraiya*: Everything Jiraiya has outside of Sage Mode gets countered/over-powered by the opposing element. In my opinion, Enma is more useful than the Boss Toads. If Jiraiya buys enough time to get to Sage Mode he might be able to win. Even Jiraiya's SM ninjutsu should still be able to be countered, if Hiruzen can counter the Buddha. Jiraiya's much improved stats give him the advantage though. 

*Orochimaru*: Hiruzen canonically almost killed him when he was using Edo Tensei, and as Orochimaru admitted himself, Hiruzen would have won if he'd been just 10 years younger. Without Edo Tensei, Orochimaru might lose. This is a close enough battle though. 


*Tsunade*: Tsunade can probably win after a long battle by outlasting via Byakugou, because stamina is Hiruzen's biggest weakness. Hiruzen has the tools to keep her at bay for a while though, and Tsunade is going to have a hard time hitting him. 


*War Kakashi*: Kakashi's only chance to win is with Kamui. Otherwise, Hiruzen outdoes him in every other area of combat.  He can counter all of Kakashi's jutsu with his superior elements, and he can protect against clone feints + raikiri with Enma. Hiruzen basically does everything Kakashi does better. 

*Gai*: Depends on how this match goes. If Gai doesn't immediately resort to the 7th Gate, he probably gets trapped in Enma cage and loses, or gets tagged by long-range ninjutsu as he tries to get close. 

If Gai opts for the 6th or 7th Gate right away, he has a much better chance. But Enma cage stops a blitz, and clones + hiding underground might protect Hiruzen. Gai has to finish the match quick and not fall for Hiruzen's feints and hiding, or else he'll run out of stamina and lose. Honestly, Hiruzen is probably not someone Gai wants to fight since his fighting style is so one-dimensional -- and if anyone has a way to counter the Gates, it's probably "The Professor."

Afternoon Tiger is the biggest threat here, but is unlikely to work if Hiruzen is hiding his real body. And it leaves Gai open after using it, so it's risky if he doesn't outright KO Hiruzen. Not sure if a tighter Enma cage (smaller holes) could block it or not. I mean, Kisame survived it, so Enma should be able to tank it...




*Danzō*: Basically admitted inferiority to Hiruzen and was portrayed as worse. Enma > Baku, and Hiruzen's elements > Danzo's. Hiruzen has to be careful about thinking he's killed him and being blind-sided, but between his tracking ability and Enma, he can probably do it. 

*Sasori*: Sasori isn't mobile enough to deal with large AoE elemental ninjutsu or Shadow Shuriken coming at him from multiple angels. Poison needles can be blocked with doton, blown away by fuuton, or blocked by Enma -- or outright dodged. Iron Sand is dangerous, but if Chiyo could react to it, I don't see why Hiruzen can't. Iron Sand: New World Order is blocked by Enma, who canonically countered a similar type of attack (Mokuton). 

I just see Sasori being overwhelmed by ninjutsu and clones. 100 puppets won't do very well, either, in my opinion, because a few clones and AoE ninjutsu will blast them away, and a last minute Enma cage protects him from their weapons. 

Honestly, there's the possiblity Sasori dies in Hiruko from an elemental ninjutsu going right through and breaking/roasting him. 


*Summit Sasuke*: This Sasuke almost died to Danzou, who basically admitted lifelong inferiority to Hiruzen. 

And is this Sasuke with only rib-cage Susano'o? Cause if it is, he loses. Hiruzen can counter Sasuke's raiton jutsu, and he can out-do Sasuke in CQC with Enma. 

If he as the stronger version of Susano'o he awakened, it depends on whether or not Hiruzen can penetrate its defenses with his ninjutsu, or find a way to get around it (doton or water from below? Mixing elements like suiton + raiton from underneath?). 

Regardless, Sasuke will have a hard time beating Hiruzen since most of his jutsu can be countered/blocked, and he's disadvantaged in CQC. 

Maybe Amaterasu wins it for him. But Hiruzen is likely knowledgeable about MS and will be careful, using clones and blocking LoS. 

*Pain Naruto*: I don't remember much about this version of Naruto to be honest, so I don't know.

*Conclusion*: A lot of these matches can go either way, because Hiruzen does have the tools to deal with a lot of their arsenals. He can _compete_ with all of them, so I don't see how he's low-Kage. I think he can beat some of them too. By _portrayal_, he's better than almost all of them.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

*Spoiler*: _holy shit_ 





Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> *A*: While A powers up, Hiruzen casts a doton wall to stall or uses some other elemental ninjutsu to avoid an initial blitz.



A does not need to "power up" his super speed. [1] 

He sprints over to Hiruzen, interrupting his seals in the process, and kills him. Hiruzen hasn't the feats to respond. If he manages to cast a ninjutsu because the distance is like 100 meters, A goes around it and kills Hiruzen anyway.



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> *AAA*:Hiruzen does pretty well, but likely loses out because of his poor stamina.



Hiruzen probably cannot handle his speed anyway, but Hiruzen can't actually hurt this guy either.  



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> B]Ōnoki[/B]: Feints + clones might work and give him an opening, especially since Onoki's stamina isn't great either.



The Tsuchikage can do the feinting thing too, and his dust release is going to tear through whatever Hiruzen throws out there to defend against it.



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> *Mū*: Hiruzen can probably track him while he's invisible, so that negates Mu's biggest advantage.



Um no, but it's irrelevant. See above. ^



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> *Gengetsu*: Hiruzen should win this one. Doton > Suiton, and Hiruzen should be able to block Joki Boi's explosions with doton or Enma.



Please, bring on those doton & Enma defensive feats. Let me see them tanking something as potent as Joki Boy.



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> *Jiraiya*: Even Jiraiya's SM ninjutsu should still be able to be countered, if Hiruzen can counter the Buddha.





Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> *Orochimaru*: Hiruzen canonically almost killed him when he was using Edo Tensei.



Orochimaru was toying with Hiruzen. 



> *War Kakashi*: he can protect against clone feints + raikiri with Enma. Hiruzen basically does everything Kakashi does better.



You _love_ that monkey staff. Kakashi reads Hiruzen's counter with the Sharingan and stabs him anyway. Though I agree that Kamui ends this.



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> *Gai*: Depends on how this match goes. If Gai doesn't immediately resort to the 7th Gate, he probably gets trapped in Enma cage and loses, or gets tagged by long-range ninjutsu as he tries to get close.



Gai opens the sixth gate and speed blitzes Hiruzen before he can do anything. The Enma Cage isn't stopping shit without feats of responding to something on Gated Gai's speed tier. Enma was never indicated to be exceptionally fast, and to make matters worse, _Hiruzen has to fucking summon him._



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> *Danzō*: Basically admitted inferiority to Hiruzen and was portrayed as worse.



Was that factoring in Izanagi?



> *Summit Sasuke*: and he can out-do Sasuke in CQC with Enma.



Yeah _fucking right._

Sasuke with Susanoo & Kagutsuchi >x365,782 Hiruzen & Enma.

Ssauke's fast enough to read Hiruzen like a book with the Sharingan's enhanced perception. He grabs Hiruzen with Susanoo & crushes him like a bug effortlessly.  



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> *Pain Naruto*: I don't remember much about this version of Naruto to be honest, so I don't know.



It's the one with Sage Mode.

Yeah, good game Hiruzen.






That was _gross _overestimation.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 9, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Why are you posting an anime caption of something that didn't happen in the manga POW?



Dude's so fodder it took the anime to even get him one-paneled.


----------



## StarWanderer (Nov 9, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Speed > The ability to blow up villages/armies of super soldiers
> 
> Rocky Philosophy
> 
> ...



Not bad. However, there are some points i do not agree with. 

My list:

1. Hashirama.
2. Tobirama.
3. Minato.
4. Danzo.
5. Mu.
6. Sandaime Raikage.
7. Onoki.
8. Yagura.
9. Gengetsu/Fourth Raikage.
11. Tsunade.
12. Gaara. 
13. Sandaime Kazekage.
14. Rasa.
15. Mei.
16. Old Hiruzen.


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## Turrin (Nov 9, 2015)

Hiruzen is underrated, I certainly think on a good day he can at least draw with the Raikage's, if not beat Ei.

The Raikage's are fast, but there speed is only an issue for someone of Hiruzen's CQC skill when they go full throttle, as otherwise we've seen characters like Temari, Dodai, Suigetsu, and Juugo reacting to their attacks. So they aren't likely to overwhelm Hiruzen at the very start of the match (nor are all matches going to start at short anyway), and later in the match Hiruzen has the necessary Jutsu to exploit the fact that Raikage's don't have any kind of extra sensory skills; he can use Kage-Bushin feints, block LOS, Genjutsu, etc... And he has the necessary Fuutons to counter their RNY defenses as well as Enma to defend a number of their attacks. Granted considering their respective physical durability they'd be tough to bring down, but Hiruzen has canonically taken down immortal zombies before with Shiki Fuujin, so even baring Hiruzen having no other option to deal with high durability characters among his plethora of techniques, he can certainly use Shiki Fuujin to deal with their durability.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Nov 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Portrayal-wise Gaara is one of the weaker kages. Danzo was arguably the strongest kage at the summit.
> 
> Susano'O > Gaara's defense.
> Anything that can rip through Susano'o will rip through Gaara's defense along with Gaara himself.



Nope, Danzo was on of the weakest Kage wannabe, he needed the Izanagi to survive 2 minutes against Sasuke.

Raikage would have killed Sasuke if Gaara didn't stop him.

Gaara was toying with Sasuke.

And LOL Gaara's defense >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Susanoo's ribs.

At the summit the raking would be like this:

1- Oonoki

2-A
3-Gaara
4-5- Danzou-Mei


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Hiruzen is underrated, I certainly think on a good day he can at least draw with the Raikage's, if not beat Ei.



A blitzes Hiruzen and kills him with no diff.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 9, 2015)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Hiruzen took damage while he was prepping Shiki Fuujin, not while he was trying to track them.
> 
> We can see him prepping the jutsu [1], and he asks "how much longer will it take?" [2] before he can use it [3]. Once it's ready to use, he says "Now all I have to do is catch them..." and has no trouble finding them or grabbing them [4]. There was no trial and error; he was able to track them on his first try. The problem was that he was vulnerable while waiting for Shiki Fuujin to take effect -- and even then, he was able to perceive their presence in total darkness and block their attacks.



There was no prepping of Shiki Fujin after his hands were no longer clasped together. He was perfectly capable of blocking a few blows, but unable to block the follow up. Granted, the technique may not have fully taken effect yet, but that didn't leave Hiruzen vulnerable. Then, even when he does manage to grab Hashirama/Tobirama, he sustains damage.



> Now, I don't think he'll know exactly where she is at all times, but if there is someone who can fight effectively in Hidden Mist, I'd put my money on Hiruzen, from his feats.



He can fight inside the Mist, but he can't know what's coming at him. He can't smell Suiryuudans, or Futon, or sheets of lava falling on him. And if he can't know where she is at all times, then he can't fight effectively. Besides, he smelled Hashirama and Tobirama within a fairly small radius, who knows if he can smell targets from a range. If Mei thinks he can track her in any way, she just gets to a farther range.



> That's not counting the fact that Hiruzen likely has plenty of Fuuton ninjutsu to disperse the mist and acid mist, judging from him having one powerful enough to counter one from the Buddha.



True, I forgot he could use fuuton. But mists are pretty dense, so it's not like it will blow away easily like a smoke cloud would. Still, once his stamina gets low, which it will pretty quickly, he can't really afford to use giant fuutons anymore. 



> Even Old, Hiruzen should be _at least_ mid-Kage in my opinion. He has no real weaknesses except a diminished stamina -- he's an expert in every facet of combat: long-range ninjutsu, the elements, genjutsu, taijutsu/CQC, strategy/analytical ability (shown when he countered the elements at once, and when he instantly deduced the nature and weakness of Juubito's attack).



But Hiruzen's stamina cripples him significantly. He can't afford to make a bunch of Kage Bunshin and fire five giant elemental blasts simultaneously like he did as an Edo. Granted, people do exaggerate at how bad his stamina is, but compared to Mei, who can match the scale of his jutsu, and fight non-stop for several hours, he isn't on the same level. His genjutsu stat might only be _knowledge_ of genjutsu, because if he were anywhere near Kurenai or Itachi level he would've used at least one against any of the multiple Kage-level foes he competed against.



> He has something to deal with pretty much every style of combat the mid-Kages use.



And doesn't have the chakra or physical stats to execute them properly.​​


----------



## Turrin (Nov 9, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A blitzes Hiruzen and kills him with no diff.


Dude you have zero credibility at this point when it comes to Ei, as far as i'm concerned. Like just as bad as Grimjow with Itachi, if not worse.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 9, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Dude you have zero credibility at this point when it comes to Ei, as far as i'm concerned. Like just as bad as Grimjow with Itachi, if not worse.



Neither my credibility nor your ad hominem can stop Raikage from blitzing Hiruzen and killing him with no diff.


----------



## Mithos (Nov 9, 2015)

*Spoiler*: _holy shit_ 







> A does not need to "power up" his super speed. [1]
> 
> He sprints over to Hiruzen, interrupting his seals in the process, and kills him. Hiruzen hasn't the feats to respond. If he manages to cast a ninjutsu because the distance is like 100 meters, A goes around it and kills Hiruzen anyway.



He does to use his full speed, which he does later in the same fight to test Naruto. 

In the same scan you linked, his strike is slow. That could give Enma can opening to trap him in the cage, or for Hiruzen to dodge.

We've seen the Raikage start fights, and both Juugo and Suigetsu defended against him initially. He's not taking Hiruzen out from the get-go. 

One weakness of A's speed is that it's very linear. He can't go fluidly dodge Hiruzen's jutsu and continue at the same speed. He has to shunshin to the side, then shunshin it again. 



> Hiruzen probably cannot handle his speed anyway, but Hiruzen can't actually hurt this guy either.



I disagree about the speed, but mostly agree about not being able to really hurt him. 



> The Tsuchikage can do the feinting thing too, and his dust release is going to tear through whatever Hiruzen throws out there to defend against it.



Yeah, he can. But Onoki doesn't have the same hype or analytical feats as Hiruzen, so it's more likely that Hiruzen would out-smart Onoki than vice-versa. 




> Um no, but it's irrelevant. See above. ^



Why can't he track him? He's canonically tracked shinobi without his sight before, using his sense of smell. I don't see how Mu's invisibility is any different. 



> Please, bring on those doton & Enma defensive feats. Let me see them tanking something as potent as Joki Boy.



Unless you believe that Joki Boy's offense is more potent than the Buddha, Hiruzen should cope just fine.  



> Orochimaru was toying with Hiruzen.



While using Edo Tensei. No one on your mid-kage list is going to force Orochimaru to go all out if he's using Edo Tensei. 



> You _love_ that monkey staff. Kakashi reads Hiruzen's counter with the Sharingan and stabs him anyway. Though I agree that Kamui ends this.



Enma is underrated. How does Kakashi stab Hiruzen anyway if he can't physically reach him because Enma is surrounding Hiruzen, or because Kakashi got trapped instead? The transformation jutsu happens so fast - fast enough to intercept a surprise Mokuton attack - Kakashi can't get around it. 

On top of that, Hiruzen is more skilled in CQC than Kakashi. 



> Gai opens the sixth gate and speed blitzes Hiruzen before he can do anything. The Enma Cage isn't stopping shit without feats of responding to something on Gated Gai's speed tier. Enma was never indicated to be exceptionally fast, and to make matters worse, _Hiruzen has to fucking summon him._



Opening the 6th Gate isn't instantaneous. Hiruzen should be able to use a jutsu to defend or block LoS and buy time to summon Enma. Enma can stop Gai if used as a _precautionary_ measure. 

What if Hiruzen uses a jutsu to block line of sight and then goes underground - like what Kakashi did against Shouten Itachi? From there he could fight with clones, and he'd have time to prepare a defense. The Gates are too one-dimensional, and they aren't without weaknesses. Remember - Gai had the Gates in part 1, and no one considered him more powerful than Hiruzen. He had the Gates during Pain's invasion, but was told to stay out it cause he would get in Naruto's way. 

Gai is strong, but he's overrated to all hell. 




> Was that factoring in Izanagi?



I don't know. Their manga portrayal seemed to imply Hiruzen had a lifelong superiority over Danzo, including at the very end. 

I don't think Danzo has the CQC skills or ninjutsu to beat Hiruzen, even if he has Izanagi. 



> Yeah _fucking right._
> 
> Sasuke with Susanoo & Kagutsuchi >x365,782 Hiruzen & Enma.
> 
> Ssauke's fast enough to read Hiruzen like a book with the Sharingan's enhanced perception. He grabs Hiruzen with Susanoo & crushes him like a bug effortlessly.



No, definitely not. 

Hiruzen is not slow. 



> It's the one with Sage Mode.
> 
> Yeah, good game Hiruzen



I know, but I don't really remember his feats that well, so I can't gauge him very well.


 





Rocky said:


> That was _gross _overestimation



If you say so. 

But I think you're underestimating him more than I'm overestimating. He was stated to be the strongest of the Gokage during his reign; he was portrayed as one of the alliance's strongest along with the other Hokage (I think he was termed one of "The Biggest of the Big Fish" in one translation); and in his only real solo fight, he took out 2 confirmed Kage level ninja and almost killed a third, whom you listed as mid-kage. I don't see how a _low-kage_ would be capable of that. 

You're also placing too much importance on speed, in a way that doesn't support how fights pan out in the manga.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> There was no prepping of Shiki Fujin after his hands were no longer clasped together. He was perfectly capable of blocking a few blows, but unable to block the follow up. Granted, the technique may not have fully taken effect yet, but that didn't leave Hiruzen vulnerable. Then, even when he does manage to grab Hashirama/Tobirama, he sustains damage.​




He was vulnerable until he said something like "Somehow it made it in time." Before that he had to work on maintaining the jutsu. Once he indicated the jutsu was ready to go, he caught them no problem. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> He can fight inside the Mist, but he can't know what's coming at him. He can't smell Suiryuudans, or Futon, or sheets of lava falling on him. And if he can't know where she is at all times, then he can't fight effectively. Besides, he smelled Hashirama and Tobirama within a fairly small radius, who knows if he can smell targets from a range. If Mei thinks he can track her in any way, she just gets to a farther range.



He seemed to sense the Edo Kages coming at him without using his sense of smell. He can probably form some kind of defense. Especially if he has one KB use fuuton to keep his immediate vicinity clear, and he focuses on attacking/defending (maybe with the help of other clones). 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> True, I forgot he could use fuuton. But mists are pretty dense, so it's not like it will blow away easily like a smoke cloud would. Still, once his stamina gets low, which it will pretty quickly, he can't really afford to use giant fuutons anymore.



I don't think elemental ninjutsu are going to exhaust him that quickly. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> But Hiruzen's stamina cripples him significantly. He can't afford to make a bunch of Kage Bunshin and fire five giant elemental blasts simultaneously like he did as an Edo. Granted, people do exaggerate at how bad his stamina is, but compared to Mei, who can match the scale of his jutsu, and fight non-stop for several hours, he isn't on the same level. His genjutsu stat might only be _knowledge_ of genjutsu, because if he were anywhere near Kurenai or Itachi level he would've used at least one against any of the multiple Kage-level foes he competed against.



His stamina problems are definitely exaggerated. He has a 3 in the DB, which isn't too bad. I think the line about the KB is misunderstood. I don't think it was saying that his stamina was too poor to use KB, but that in a battle against 3 Kage level opponents wasting two-thirds of his chakra would be a bad idea. 

I imagine he can use genjutsu, but I don't know how effective it would be against Kage level ninja, so I'm not going to assume he'll use it against her. I'm not sure about your reasoning though. Against multiple Kage level ninja, I'm not sure how effective most _conventional_ genjutsu would be. Generally in the manga, non-Sharingan genjutsu hasn't been used against Kage level opponents, let alone 3 of them at once. 





Godaime Tsunade said:


> And doesn't have the chakra or physical stats to execute them properly.


​
I think he'll fare just fine against her. Elemental ninjutsu aren't too taxing, relatively. I see either Mei killing Hiruzen or Hiruzen outmaneuvering Mei and killing her with his ninjutsu long before either of them tire out. 

I think Hiruzen is a victim of stamina inflation. In Part 2, everyone can do more of everything before they tire, but their stamina has stayed fairly constant in relation to each other. I think we need to compare his stamina to other characters with more feats who have a stamina stat of 3, rather than looking at the number of jutsu he used in part 1.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 9, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Neither my credibility nor your ad hominem can stop Raikage from blitzing Hiruzen and killing him with no diff.



v4 Itachi intercepts and saves him.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 9, 2015)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> I don't see how a _low-kage_ would be capable of that.



You are living in Part I. 



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> You're also placing too much importance on speed, in a way that doesn't support how fights pan out in the manga.



Do you know _why_ my interpretation doesn't reflect the manga's battles? It's because the manga's primary goal is to tell a story. I don't _care_ about doing the same unless I'm doing it for fun in a joke post. I don't need to figure out ways around story-breaking powers so that the my arguments can make money in stores. 

Many inconsistencies exist in Naruto, and that is because storytelling, drama, and excitement are priorities. Nobody wants to watch a fight that lasts a few seconds. They want to watch a fight with tension and unexpected twists & turns, and if he wishes to make money, Kishimoto must give it to them. 

They want to see Jiraiya's full might, so Kishimoto had Nagato send _one_ path like an idiot so that he'd reach Sage Mode. They want Gai to be saved by a dramatic & cool combination attack, so Kishimoto had Minato flawlessly intercept two of the _fastest things in the story_ speeding towards each other.

They want to see our heroes struggle to overcome the "intangible man," so Kishimoto has Gai fight in base like an idiot and makes no mention of Naruto's flash-like body flicker. Furthermore, Kishimoto inexplicably has Obito refrain from using the Rinnegan in combination with his Kamui, because it'd be too difficult to write around.

There's a reason all of A's opponents have had speed mirroring his own or an instant-armor ninjutsu that defends them in all direction. If they didn't, there would be no drama, because they'd fare no better than Kisame did against Gai's super speed. Kisame vs Gai had reached its climax, so Kishimoto had Gai activate super speed, and one of the most physically gifted ninja in the verse was _helpless_ to stop it.

I'm no longer going to play that game. I'm not restricting these characters from functioning because of a plot that doesn't exist in the Battledome. So, to your points:   



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> He does to use his full speed, which he does later in the same fight to test Naruto. In the same scan you linked, his strike is slow. That could give Enma can opening to trap him in the cage, or for Hiruzen to dodge. We've seen the Raikage start fights, and both Juugo and Suigetsu defended against him initially. He's not taking Hiruzen out from the get-go.



A does not need to power up to use his full speed. Entering maximum power is not a lengthy process. I shouldn't have to link you the Minato, Naruto, or Madara fights. Furthermore, A's taijutsu is slow_*er*_ than his body flicker,_ but by no means is it slow._ Enma outspeeding v1 Raikage's taijutsu like Sharingan Sasuke and trapping him in a cage while KCM fucking Naruto had time only for an arm-guard is _ludicrous._

V1 Raikage is more than enough for Hiruzen, who isn't more reflexive than a close combat specialist further enhanced by the Curse Seal in Jūgo _or_ Naruto powered by Kurama's chakra just because you want him to be. A can access ridiculous speed _instantly_, and Hiruzen is not equipped to deal with them. Good. Game.



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Opening the 6th Gate isn't instantaneous. Hiruzen should be able to use a jutsu to defend or block LoS and buy time to summon Enma. Enma can stop Gai if used as a precautionary measure.



Gai can jump to the sixth gate instantly. He's opened it on the run against the v2 jinchūriki, and he jumped right into it when he chased Kisame down. Hiruzen _shouldn't_ be able to use a jutsu to defend. What makes him fast enough? What speedy portrayal does Hiruzen have? 

Hiruzen forming seals and using ninjutsu to "block LOS" takes too long. Hiruzen would form a seal, bend down to hit the ground for an earth wall, and 6th Gate Gai's foot would punt him back up into the sky in preparation for Asa Kujaku. The end. This isn't the manga. It doesn't have to be some cinematic battle where characters are shielded from death until the story can reach a climactic point. 

You've basically argued as if Hiruzen has plot protection. Well, he doesn't, so I don't know why he'd do any better against a power _that he doesn't have a counter for_ than Orochimaru did against the Totsuka blade.


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## Mithos (Nov 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You are living in Part I.



Tell me, who on your mid-kage list would beat Orochimaru + Edo Tensei Hokage in the same situation as Hiruzen? 

Just because it was in Part 1 doesn't mean it's not relevant. 



> Do you know _why_ my interpretation doesn't reflect the manga's battles? It's because the manga's primary goal is to tell a story. I don't _care_ about doing the same unless I'm doing it for fun in a joke post. I don't need to figure out ways around story-breaking powers so that the my arguments can make money in stores.



Isn't the point of the Battledome to simulate battles as they may happen in the manga? 

You can't say "If the author wrote this fight in the manga, this would probably happen -- but my version makes more sense." These are the author's characters, and everything we know came from him. Whether you like it or not, the author would not consider A taking out a fellow Kage with a speed blitz from the get-go. It's just not happening, and the author's opinion matters more to me than yours. 



> Many inconsistencies exist in Naruto, and that is because storytelling, drama, and excitement are priorities. Nobody wants to watch a fight that lasts a few seconds. They want to watch a fight with tension and unexpected twists & turns, and if he wishes to make money, Kishimoto must give it to them.



It doesn't matter. A takes certain actions when he's IC. You can't make him fight differently because you want him to. 

Besides that, whenever Kishi writes fights he finds ways for his characters to counter things we never thought they could -- a new strategy, jutsu they haven't used before, etc. Hiruzen has a few shown options to protect himself, that I mentioned, and if Kishi wrote a fight between him and A, he would likely make Hiruzen pull out some new jutsu that would do the same. 





> They want to see Jiraiya's full might, so Kishimoto had Nagato send _one_ path like an idiot so that he'd reach Sage Mode. They want Gai to be saved by a dramatic & cool combination attack, so Kishimoto had Minato flawlessly intercept two of the _fastest things in the story_ speeding towards each other.
> 
> They want to see our heroes struggle to overcome the "intangible man," so Kishimoto has Gai fight in base like an idiot and makes no mention of Naruto's flash-like body flicker. Furthermore, Kishimoto inexplicably has Obito refrain from using the Rinnegan in combination with his Kamui, because it'd be too difficult to write around.



How would using Gates help Gai find someone he can't touch? He would just exhaust himself...





> There's a reason all of A's opponents have had speed mirroring his own or an instant-armor ninjutsu that defends them in all direction. If they didn't, there would be no drama, because they'd fare no better than Kisame did against Gai's super speed. Kisame vs Gai had reached its climax, so Kishimoto had Gai activate super speed, and one of the most physically gifted ninja in the verse was _helpless_ to stop it.



Juugo and Suigetsu didn't, and they didn't get blitzed right from the get-go. 

Kisame misjudged the type of attack it was. He didn't lose to Gai's speed; he lost to Afternoon Tiger. In fact, Gai probably didn't blitz him because Kisame used an AoE ninjutsu that would stop such an attempt (He used two IIRC: a wall or sharks, and then a giant shark wave).

Besides, Kisame is not Hiruzen, and doesn't have the same options Hiruzen does. 



> A does not need to power up to use his full speed. Entering maximum power is not a lengthy process. I shouldn't have to link you the Minato, Naruto, or Madara fights. Furthermore, A's taijutsu is slow_*er*_ than his body flicker,_ but by no means is it slow._ Enma outspeeding v1 Raikage's taijutsu like Sharingan Sasuke and trapping him in a cage while KCM fucking Naruto had time only for an arm-guard is _ludicrous._



The transformation jutsu is faster than movement speed. I don't see why Enma couldn't form a cage before A can punch. IIRC, didn't Suigetsu have time to raise his sword and block A's chop? And in a scan already linked in this thread by someone else, Sasuke had time to encase himself in Enton before A could chop him from behind. 

That's 3 examples right there of different ninja reacting and defending against A's strikes. 

Maybe I shouldn't have said his strikes are slow, but I haven't seen anything that suggests they're particularly fast either. 




> V1 Raikage is more than enough for Hiruzen, who isn't more reflexive than a close combat specialist further enhanced by the Curse Seal in Jūgo _or_ Naruto powered by Kurama's chakra just because you want him to be. A can access ridiculous speed _instantly_, and Hiruzen is not equipped to deal with them. Good. Game.



Hiruzen is one of the few characters in the manga who has a 5 in taijutsu. You don't get a perfect score in taijutsu by having poor reflexes. 

Hiruzen doesn't even have to be able to react to everything A does, because if he manages to encase himself in Enma, he can then hide underground, make clones, try to feint him, and attack with ninjutsu from safe positions. Or he erects an earth wall, which stops a direct charge in from A. And then Hiruzen scales it. A can't just shunshin blitz him from below, which gives Hiruzen time to cast another jutsu and form another defense. 

The scan you linked isn't him using his full speed, though. And in case you didn't notice, Obito casually countered it. My point still stands: A has not taken out a Kage level ninja right from the get-go, no matter how much you say it would happen. That was also an incredibly close starting distance, and in most situations Hiruzen wouldn't start that close. 



> Gai can jump to the sixth gate instantly. He's opened it on the run against the v2 jinchūriki, and he jumped right into it when he chased Kisame down. Hiruzen _shouldn't_ be able to use a jutsu to defend. What makes him fast enough? What speedy portrayal does Hiruzen have?




Scan please. 

I have a completely different point of view when it comes to speed. I don't ask "what speedy portrayal does ____ have" that suggests they don't get blitzed. I ask "what is there to suggest this character can blitz _____."

From Hiruzen's portrayal, I think it would be crazy for him to be unable to deal with speed when he has so many jutsu at his disposal to make it so he doesn't have to attempt to react and defend against blitzes. If he can't deal with Gates head on (as he probably can't), he won't try to fight it head on. 

Preemptive barriers, AoE jutsu, Enma, hiding, clones, etc can all be used so that he doesn't have to stand there and attempt to react to Gai's speed. 




> Hiruzen forming seals and using ninjutsu to "block LOS" takes too long. Hiruzen would form a seal, bend down to hit the ground for an earth wall, and 6th Gate Gai's foot would punt him back up into the sky in preparation for Asa Kujaku. The end. This isn't the manga. It doesn't have to be some cinematic battle where characters are shielded from death until the story can reach a climactic point.



I don't think Gai can activate Gates, charge in, and kick before Hiruzen can activate a jutsu. Can you show me an example where Gai does this? 

Every example I can recall, there is a slight delay before he can attack, and since it doesn't take much time to cast something, I don't see why Hiruzen can't. 

Remember, this is a manga where Mei can shunshin a large distance and cast a water wall before Madara's Katon can hit Tsunade, when it already wasn't far from her. Ninja react quick, and they cast ninjutsu very fast as well. Just like Gai's and A's speeds defy logic, so do other characters' reaction and casting speeds. 



> You've basically argued as if Hiruzen has plot protection. Well, he doesn't, so I don't know why he'd do any better against a power _that he doesn't have a counter for_ than Orochimaru did against the Totsuka blade.



First, I've given a few potential counters, so that already makes the comparison to Orochimaru and the Totsuka moot. It's also not a fair comparison because Orochimaru didn't know about the Totsuka, so he didn't try to take _precautions_ against it (one potential option being Leech All Creation, or Rashoumon, for example), which is what I'm arguing Hiruzen could do. 

You're saying that Hiruzen has nothing to counter super speed, and your argument so far hinges entirely on the possibility that Hiruzen gets OHKOed from a starting blitz. If he doesn't and he gets off a defensive jutsu, he has plenty of tools to keep himself safe, which you haven't countered, other than claiming that he won't get anything off in the first place. 

If the match comes down to A succeeding by taking Hiruzen out before he can do anything, then that's a match where he doesn't have much wiggle room, and that means Hiruzen is threat to him.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 10, 2015)

> I don't see why Enma couldn't form a cage before A can punch.



I still cannot believe this was posted.


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## Turrin (Nov 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Neither my credibility nor your ad hominem can stop Raikage from blitzing Hiruzen and killing him with no diff.


I know it's impossible for you to wrap your mind around this concept, but not every match does Raikage start with max speed at 5m. That's why you have characters like Suigetsu blocking attacks, and characters like Base-B and Sasuke keeping pace or out pacing him at the start of matches. And those were close range matches, Mid to Long-Range matches would give someone even more of a chance to react. 

Hiruzen also isn't as bad as your trolling him out to be. He outpaced Orochimaru in CQC, kept pace with Base-Hashirama and Tobirama in Shunshin, was able to partially evade an attack from Juubito, and was able to create 5 KB and utlize 5 separate elemental Jutsu all before Shinsuusenju's finished spitting out it's own elemental blasts. 

But this is probably a waste of my time, because your not interested in honest evaluation anyway, just wanking all over Raikage's Max-Speed and nothing more.



Rocky said:


> I still cannot believe this was posted.


Considering that even against Minato, which is the situation that most closely mirrors your biased view of Location/Distance/Mind-Set (how early Ei uses Max-Speed) , he allowed Minato to pull out a Kunai, throw it, than pull out some more and throw them everywhere, before he even activated his RNY to attack him. It's very plausible Ei would allow Hiruzen to summon out Enma and Enma go cage form before he attacked.


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## Rocky (Nov 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> That's why you have characters like Suigetsu



Interception feat/Combination attack with Darui. No different than Minato throwing a kunai 30m before Kakashi can Kamui.



Turrin said:


> Base-B and Sasuke



Never faced his v1 flicker. Sasuke eventually faced v2.

Also, both of these characters are stupid faster than Hiruzen.



Turrin said:


> Hiruzen also isn't as bad as your trolling him out to be.



3/5 Speed.



Turrin said:


> But this is probably a waste of my time



I agree. You are wasting your time posting incorrect interpritations. 



Turrin said:


> he allowed Minato



No shit. Minato would have had to do something weird like warp to Konoha if A didn't stand there until he got set up. 

Btw, Minato is 4+ tiers faster than Hiruzen & A was going v2.


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## Ersa (Nov 10, 2015)

But Rocky, Hiruzen dodged Juubito's attack.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Intercepted a genetically enhanced 3T sharingan user before he could finish a single swing




:ignoramus


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## Rocky (Nov 10, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> But Rocky, Hiruzen dodged Juubito's attack.


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## Ersa (Nov 10, 2015)

But what if one was to say Gudodama attack speed is faster then v2 A?


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## Rocky (Nov 10, 2015)

Extendo truth seeker spear has two feats. 

Hitting Hiruzen in the shoulder. 

Being intercepted by Sasuke.


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## Mithos (Nov 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Those who normally beat Orochimaru. Both Tsuchikage, Kakashi, Pain Naruto, Summit Sasuke, etc.



How? 

None of them can seal the Edo Tensei or deal with Bringer of Darkness. 



> It's out of character for the fastest man to go fast, eh?



No - it's OoC for A to use his max speed right from the get-go. 


I posted a scan of this in a reply in a different thread. Juugo transforms his hand into a shield and puts them in front of him to block. He was overpowered, but he reacted. 



> ..and Suigetsu's interception feat was a coordinated attack with Darui.



It doesn't matter. Suigetsu had time to intercept before A chopped. 


I thought you were referring to the _real_ Kisame vs Gai. 

But even in that scan, Shouten Kisame reacted and swung Samehada. He got _countered_ hard, but he wasn't blitzed.  



> What
> 
> What the _fuck_ does this feat have to do with Hiruzen?



If Sasuke has time to encase himself in Enton before A can chop him after evading an attack, then Enma has time to form the cage as well. 



> How about Sasuke needing a matured Sharingan to evade one?



Just because one character needed a Sharingan doesn't mean a different character without it couldn't react. Sasuke was also charging towards A, putting him in a position where it's harder to react (the reason why Raikiri/Chidori has to be used with Sharingan otherwise you can't see the counteract). Hiruzen isn't going to be charging at A, and therefore won't be in the same precarious position that might require a Sharingan. 



> The reflex stat is indicated by the speed category. Hiruzen has a 3.


Taijutsu skill hones reflexive ability. And we've seen much slower characters react to faster ones. Hiruzen having a 3 does not necessarily mean he can't react.  




> Hit me up when Hiruzen gets the Sharingan's enhanced perception, precognitive element, and seal-less intangibility jutsu.



He doesn't need these things



> [1][2][3]



The first scan shows him activate it, and it's not instant. He yells and there's a shockwave - time for someone to cast a jutsu. 

The second it happens off-panel. That doesn't mean it didn't take any time. 

I'm not sure what the third one is showing, exactly. We know there is a stance required for MP. Just because Kishi didn't draw it doesn't mean he didn't do it - the same way that he doesn't draw the hand seals for every single jutsu, because it's repetitive and a waste of panel of space. 

When Gai activates the 7th Gate, Kisame has time to prep his jutsu before Gai gets off AT (which, like MP, also has a special stance) [1]

There is time for Hiruzen to use a jutsu before Gai uses MP or AT or charges towards him after activating the Gates. 



> What you have _doesn't matter_ if you aren't fast enough to use it.



The fact that many characters have reacted to A or used jutsu against him or Gai against suggests Hiruzen will have time to use ninjutsu against "super speed". 

6th Gate Gai lands close to Kisame, but Kisame still gets off "Five Man Eating Sharks" [2]. And after that, he is able to use another jutsu after Gai opens the 7th Gate [3]. Gai's super speed didn't stop Kisame from using jutsu in their fight, and it didn't stop Shouten Kisame from swinging his sword. 



> He won't get anything off in the first place. He's not fast enough to actually fight A.



He's not fast enough to keep pace with A, but he can certainly fight him.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Interception feat/Combination attack with Darui.


So what your saying is Ei didn't start with his Max Speed.



> Never faced his v1 flicker. Sasuke eventually faced v2.
> 
> Also, both of these characters are stupid faster than Hiruzen.



So what your saying is Ei didn't start with his Max Speed.



> 3/5 Speed.


If you want to use stuff from PI than Old-Hiruzen = Strongest Gokage 



> No shit. Minato would have had to do something weird like warp to Konoha if A didn't stand there until he got set up.


This is the biggest BS i've ever seen



> Btw, Minato is 4+ tiers faster than Hiruzen & A was going v2.


Speed is kind of irrelevant when Ei just stands there


----------



## Rocky (Nov 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> So what your saying is Ei didn't start with his Max Speed.



At the Summit? No, of course not. 

If he chooses to start with v1 like he did at the Summit, Hiruzen dies.

If he chooses to start with v2 like he did against Minato or Madara, Hiruzen dies.



Turrin said:


> If you want to use stuff from PI than Old-Hiruzen = Strongest Gokage



I must have missed the Hiruzen speed hype. 



Turrin said:


> This is the biggest BS i've ever seen



Nah. Kishi couldn't have A just run Minato down without Minato having an opportunity to get set up. 



Turrin said:


> Speed is kind of irrelevant when Ei just stands there



I suppose it's great that he won't stand there then.


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## Turrin (Nov 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If he chooses to start with v1 like he did at the Summit, Hiruzen dies.
> 
> If he chooses to start with v2 like he did against Minato or Madara, Hiruzen dies.
> 
> .


He stood there doing nothing at the start of the Sasuke match
He stood there doing nothing at the start of the Minato match
He stood there doing nothing at the start of the Madara match



> I must have missed the Hiruzen speed hype.


I'm not saying Hiruzen is a speed demon i'm saying his stats are even more dated than Kabuto stating he was stronger than other Gokage. Basically I'm highlighting your hypocrisy.



> Nah. Kishi couldn't have A just run Minato down without Minato having an opportunity to get set up.


Cool so Kishi wouldn't just have Ei run Hiruzen down w/o Hiruzen having an oppertunity to get set up




> I suppose it's great that he won't stand there then.


IC he's done it before.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> He stood there doing nothing at the start of the Sasuke match
> He stood there doing nothing at the start of the Minato match
> He stood there doing nothing at the start of the Madara match





Everyone stands there and does nothing at the start of every match. _Including_ _Hiruzen_. 

What do you think this is? Kishimoto's telling a story. He isn't going to have two characters just start fighting without building tension & drama.



Turrin said:


> I'm not saying Hiruzen is a speed demon i'm saying his stats are even more dated than Kabuto stating he was stronger than other Gokage. Basically I'm highlighting your hypocrisy.



Okay, then what are his stats? It's not like I'm using old stats_ in favor of new ones. _



Turrin said:


> Cool so Kishi wouldn't just have Ei run Hiruzen down w/o Hiruzen having an oppertunity to get set up



Kishimoto would never have A fight Hiruzen. They were allies.


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## Turrin (Nov 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Everyone stands there and does nothing at the start of every match. _Including_ _Hiruzen_.
> 
> What do you think this is? Kishimoto's telling a story. He isn't going to have two characters just start fighting without building tension & drama.



K thx for further strengthening my point that your scenario of insta blitz is completely unrealistic.



> Okay, then what are his stats? It's not like I'm using old stats in favor of new ones.


Your using Old-Stats in favor of new feats. His Shunshin kept up with Tobirama and Hashirama. He managed to evade Juubito's black element. He was able to create 5 KB and have each use a different elemental Jutsu before Shinsuusenju's blast was even finished. He kept up with Orochimaru's speed and actually outmatched him in CQC, Orochimaru being a 4.5 in speed as of DBIII. I think considering Hiruzen's speed feats in the war and against Orochimaru in PI, it's pretty fair to estimate his speed is more comparable to a 4-5, rather than 3. which when combined with a 5 in Taijutsu skill, is enough for him to deal with Ei's entry level speed.



> Kishimoto would never have A fight Hiruzen. They were allies.


That doesn't matter. The point is IC Ei has never immediately started any match with Max-Speed or Even R1-Shunshin. He just doesn't fight that way. So not only are you setting this match at biased distance every time (10m or less), but also have Ei OOC, which is just completely unfair.


Edit: I mean Rocky, if your not talking about how the fight would actually go in the manga, don't care how strong Kishimoto intends each character to be, and are only concerned with how fights would go down at a certain range than fine. But in the NBD the default is that characters are IC and we are talking about who would win in the manga or who the author is indicating would win/who is stronger. So at least admit that you don't give a shit about these things and kindly make a separate thread with OOC mind-set and so on.


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## Rocky (Nov 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> K thx



Ah, I'm glad you at least agreed that Kishimoto must build drama & tension in his manga. It's a good thing that my arguments don't need to incorporate things like drama & tension.



Turrin said:


> Your using Old-Stats in favor of new feats.



His war feats weren't impressive. He got hit in the shoulder by Obito's extendo truth-seeker (which is virtually featless), and then got blitzed by Obito himself. He reacted to the elemental beams, which aren't especially fast. 

I mean, if you want to say he's a 4/5 in speed, then that's whatever. Even if you want to give him the ultimate benefit of the doubt in blocking v1 Raikage's flicker, then whatever. He gets his arms ripped off, and that's the end of it. 



Turrin said:


> The point is IC Ei has never immediately started any match with Max-Speed or Even R1-Shunshin.



IC Hiruzen has never started a fight with ninjutsu.


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## Mithos (Nov 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> IC Hiruzen has never started a fight with ninjutsu.



In his only real battle (against Orochimaru), he opened with one...

[1] [2] [3]

When confronting Juubito and attempting to get info on him, he also opened with ninjutsu and attacked first...

EDIT: he even opens with ninjutsu against the Edo Tensei Hokage [4] [5]


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## Rocky (Nov 12, 2015)

Your first scan is literally Hiruzen standing there. In Turrin's opinion, which is who I was responding to, that is his opening move. So no, he did not _literally_ open with one.

In _my_ opinion, I do consider Shadow Shuriken to be the "opening," just as I consider the v2 Shunshin to be A's opening move against both Minato and Madara. Not him standing there.

Which means that Hiruzen loses to Raikage with no difficulty. V2 is actually overkill, to be honest.


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## Mithos (Nov 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Your first scan is literally Hiruzen standing there. In Turrin's opinion, which is who I was responding to, that is his opening move. So no, he did not _literally_ open with one.
> 
> In _my_ opinion, I do consider Shadow Shuriken to be the "opening," just as I consider the v2 Shunshin to be A's opening move against both Minato and Madara. Not him standing there.
> 
> Which means that Hiruzen loses to Raikage with no difficulty. V2 is actually overkill, to be honest.



Of course there's going to be a scan of them standing there. The fight hadn't started yet. Every fight needs a beginning move...

The difference is that Hiruzen has opened with ninjutsu on 3 different occasions and done so in an offensive manner - either at the same time or first - while A has not ever opened with a shunshin blitz as the first move in a fight. 

It's more likely that Hiruzen will have the "opening" move than A.


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## Rocky (Nov 12, 2015)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> The difference is that Hiruzen has opened with ninjutsu on 3 different occasions and done so in an offensive manner - either at the same time or first - while A has not ever opened with a shunshin blitz as the first move in a fight.





Have you read the Raikage's fights? A has opened with a Shunshin blitz on both Minato and Madara.


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## Mithos (Nov 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Have you read the Raikage's fights? A has opened with a Shunshin blitz on both Minato and Madara.



Against Madara, Mei actually had the opening move, and A attacked after Madara was left vulnerable from Mei's attack. Unless you count A powering up as the opening -- in which case that would still give Hiruzen time to use something.

Against Minato, Minato has the first move, by throwing marked kunai everywhere [1] [2], to which A responds by _powering up_. 

A rarely moves first. In his fight with Sasuke he also attacked after C cast his genjutsu.


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## Turrin (Nov 12, 2015)

The match begins when an enemy actually makes a combat oriented move against the enemy. Thus the difference would be in various matches. Hiruzen vs Orochimaru began when Hiruzen threw a shuriken at Orochimaru, Orochimaru than responds with summoning Edo-Tensei. Hiruzen vs Juubito begins with Hiruzen throwing a Large Shuriken at Juubito. Both those engagements begin with Hiruzen using Ninjutsu. On the flip side of this Ei vs Taka begins with Sasuke charging Ei, and Ei responds by just standing there. When Sasuke and Ei begin their individual fight, Sasuke again charges Ei, and again he responds by just standing there. Against Kisame the match between Ei's team and Kisame begins the moment Darui throws his Raiton Shuriken, and than Ei just stands there again. In Minato vs Ei, the match begins when Minato throws his Hiraishin Kunai, and Ei responds by just standing there. I won't count the Naruto/B/Ei thing, because nether party was really fighting with killer-intent at match start, but in Gokage vs Madara/Mu, Ei starts with a non-RNY Punch, which even Mu appears to react to, and than just stands there waiting for Mei to attack before launching his own R1-Shunshin against Madara. 

In no instance ever does Ei, immediately start the battle with Max-Speed Shunshin or even R1-Shunshin, in most instances instead he literally opts to just stand there giving the enemy ample time. In every instances cited above Hiruzen would have enough time to use at least one if not several techniques before Ei used any kind of Shunshin blitz, and this is in a Short-Distance scenario; at long Hiruzen will certainly be able to use multiple techniques to feel out Ei before he cross the distance and decides to use a Shunshin blitz of any significant magnitude.


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## Rocky (Nov 12, 2015)

You aren't supposed to make it this easy. 



Turrin said:


> The match begins when an enemy actually makes a combat oriented move against the enemy.



Okay.



Turrin said:


> Hiruzen vs Orochimaru began when Hiruzen threw a shuriken at Orochimaru







Turrin said:


> Hiruzen vs Juubito begins with Hiruzen throwing a Large Shuriken at Juubito.



Turrin: _"Against Kisame the match between Ei's team and Kisame begins the moment Darui throws his Raiton Shuriken, and than Ei just stands there again."_

Rocky taking Turrin's attempt at logic and using it against his own point:





Turrin said:


> Both those engagements begin with Hiruzen using Ninjutsu



Actually, both of them begin with Hiruzen standing there. 

Then he throws a shuriken.

_Then_ he uses ninjutsu.


____________​

Here's an IC (Turrin-version) fight:

Hiruzen stands there, while A activates Lightning Mode and stands there. Then Hiruzen will throw a shuriken and A will use Shunshin. Then Hiruzen will die.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 13, 2015)

When is Ei ever going to be fighting Hiruzen at 100 meters away, though? If it takes Hiruzen 100 meters just to summon Enma before Ei blitzes him, that speaks volumes of the power difference between them. 

In most scenarios the distance between them will be smaller, and there's no way he can both summon Enma and have him turn into a shield before he eats a lariat then.​​


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## Turrin (Nov 13, 2015)

Orochimaru wasn't making a move against Hiruzen, he was making a move against himself, I.E. he was stabbing himself to ready himself emotionally to take down his former sensei (I would consider this preamble the actual battle beginning). Against Juubito he wasn't standing there, he was taking evasive maneuvers to get out of the way of Juubito's way, than took evasive maneuvers to avoid Tandem Explosive Tags, and than attacked with KB-Shuriken. 



> Hiruzen stands there, while A activates Lightning Mode and stands there. Then Hiruzen will throw a shuriken and A will use Shunshin. Then Hiruzen will die.


Interesting, the beginning is actually similar to how I think it would go, except I think Hiruzen has enough knowledge on the Raikages and RNY, to know throwing a Shuriken isn't his best option. So it's more like normal battle preamble, Ei begins to ignite RNY, Hiruzen reacts to this using an quick LOS Blocker (if not pulling Enma defense right away) hiding himself from Ei, this gives Hiruzen time establish a more cogent defense; a more permanent LOS-Blocker , Some sort of mind-fuckery (Genjutsu), Enma-Cage, KB, etc... From there Hiruzen will have the normal back and forth for a short period of time, and Hiruzen will ether put one over on Ei or Ei will avoid/tank everything Hiruzen can throw at him, in which case Hiruzen will quickly opt for Shiki Fuujin as he did against the Tensei, and Ei won't be able to avoid the invisible nature of the Shinigami's attack, which ends the match in a draw. 

If for whatever reason the professor and legendary Jutsu master, whose been around for 2 Reigning Raikages at the least, is unaware of RNY or the Raikage's abilities, than I could see it ending in Raikage overwhelming Hiruzen with his CQC, before Hiruzen takes the adequate steps to defend himself. However I find the chances of such a notion slim.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> When is Ei ever going to be fighting Hiruzen at 100 meters away, though?
> .​​


I think that begs the question what scenario would Hiruzen just randomly run into Ei at 5m-10m, w/o knowing he's going into battle with Ei ahead of time. To me that type of scenario is much more unlikely to occur than Hiruzen ether being aware that he's going on a tough mission or straight up aware of the fact that he may face Raikage, well before even 100m. Or becoming aware that the Raikage is near, at 100m while on a mission.

I mean I could literally list off every scenario that has ever gone down in this manga and 9 out of 10 times, depending on whose role we fit Ei or Hiruzen into, one or both of them are going to be aware that they are going to be facing someone powerful (if not exactly who they are facing) at 100m+ before the battle begins.



> If it takes Hiruzen 100 meters just to summon Enma before Ei blitzes him,


It doesn't take that long. Ei was within what 2m of Minato, and are you going to tell me it takes longer for Hiruzen to use an act of space-time to summon Enma, than it took Minato to toss one Kunai, pause, then toss many more Kunai, than Ei powers up RNY, than attacks, and than Minato uses Hiriashin. Hiruzen absolutely would have time to summon Enma and for Enma to take Cage form if he was in Minato's shoes there, and that's at like 2m. Like wise if we put Hiruzen in Sasuke's shows at the Kage Summit, there is no way that it's taking Hiruzen longer to summon Enma and it take cage form, than it is for Sasuke to run over to Ei, and perform a leaping attack, be defelcted by Darui, C to use a Genjutsu, and than Ei to attack at the similar speed as Darui. And again Ei was like within 2m of Taka at that point. 

Beyond that we have constantly seen characters with massive speed advantages fail to instantly blitz enemies that are slower than Hiruzen time and time again, at match start.



> that speaks volumes of the power difference between them.


Fors Ei to blitz Hiruzen at match start, we'd need some unlikely scenario where Ei and Hiruzen just randomly bump into each other as enemies at Short, and we'd need Ei to act more aggressively against Hiruzen than he did against the Yellow-Flash and the man he believed murdered his brother, immediately going for the blitz. To me that doesn't speak towards a power difference at all, rather it speaks towards crafting a highly unlikely ideal scenario that advantages Ei enough to win overwhelmingly, and nothing more. I mean i'm sure you consider Tsunade at least around Ei's level if not > than Ei, and put Tsunade in the same scenario, and Ei could Lariate her head off before she can even use Byakugo, to me that doesn't mean Ei is eons above Tsunade, that means Ei found himself in an extremely unlikely ideal scenario. Same thing with other characters like Itachi, Jiriaya, and so on that Ei is otherwise   inferior to.


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## Rocky (Nov 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Orochimaru wasn't making a move against Hiruzen, he was making a move against himself



Flanking someone and holding a kunai to their throat = combat-oriented move. 



Turrin said:


> Against Juubito he wasn't standing there, he was taking evasive maneuvers to get out of the way



...he was reacting to what had just happened to Tobirama & Hashirama. Hiruzen cannot dodge Obito. 



Turrin said:


> except I think Hiruzen has enough knowledge on the Raikages and RNY to know throwing a Shuriken isn't his best option.



What? What the actual _fuck?_ He threw a shuriken at Orochimaru, _his student_, who can regenerate. He threw Shuriken at _*Godbito,*_ whom he had just witnessed tanking tandem explosive tags. Get the fuck _outta here_ with that. 



Turrin said:


> Ei begins to ignite RNY, Hiruzen reacts to this using an quick LOS



Not IC for Hiruzen. Show me him blocking LOS at the start of a fight. 

Oh, and this isn't Pokemon by the way. If A uses Lightning Mode, and Hiruzen decides to (OOC ) form seals for an LOS blocker, he dies.

1. A- Lightning Mode
2. Hiruzen- Form Seals
3. A- Shunshin
4. Hiruzen- Slap the ground for earth wall
5. A- kills Hiruzen, either by getting there before the wall goes up, or by going around the wall.

The end.


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## Turrin (Nov 13, 2015)

Rocky from a story perspective, Hiruzen didn't make move initially because he was willing to take that risk to prevent all out war between Sungakuru and Konohagakuru, after he became aware it was Orochimaru, both were having an emotional moment, with Orochimaru even crying, so Hiruzen was aware of Orochimaru's lack of killer intent in that instance, he even taunts him about it. Bottom line being that nether were seriously invested in fighting the other or making real moves with that aim, until Hiruzen used KB-Shuriken and Orochimaru summoned Edo-Tensei. 

Whether you think Hiruzen can react to Juubito's black element attacks or not is irrelevant (though he canonically did partially avoid one), the point being he wasn't just standing there, he was acting evasively in response to the ultra high-level attacks being thrown around.

As far as Hiruzen using KB Shuriken goes. The scenario against Ei is different than against Orochimaru or Juubito. Offensively speaking, against Orochimaru I do not think one can prove he was aware of Orochimaru's regenerative capabilities, as he was unaware of many of Orochimaru's other capabilities; one has to remember Hiruzen did not see Orochimaru for a long time and did not know to the extent that Orochimaru had successfully experiment on himself. And against Juubito he wasn't using KB-Shuriken for offensive purposes, but rather as a chance to analyze Juubito's black element. 

Plus there is an even bigger difference here, in both of those cases Hiruzen could afford to take more risks defensively. Against RNY/Raikage he likely knows he needs to defend himself or escape CQC, so he'll have to take some sort of defensive action right away if Ei is getting close. Against Orochimaru that threat wasn't there, and against Juubito while it was there Hiruzen was an Edo-Tensei and thus could afford to take hits he otherwise could not. So yeah if Hiruzen is ether unaware of Ei's CQC threat or is a Tensei, than he probably would start with KB-Shuriken, but otherwise I see him taking a more defensive approach out of sheer common sense.

As far as establishing IC for Hiruzen goes, that depends on what the scenario is. If the scenario entails Hiruzen being aware of Ei before randomly encountering him at short, than he will likely already have Enma summoned out, just like how he already summoned Enma out IC before confronting Orochimaru in the flashback and before engaging Kurama, and IC Enma will be used defensively against a threat like Ei. If some how this is an unlikely random encounter at 5-10m, there is no IC basis, because Hiruzen has never suddenly ended up randomly encountering a CQC monster like Ei at 5m-10m before, so we need to go with what Hiruzen will logically do, and in which case his logical first move would be to take some defensive action against Ei, assuming he is aware of RNY or Ei personally (or Ei's father). 

How Hiruzen acted IC against Orochimaru or Juubito are again not representative of how he'd act IC here, because again Orochimaru isn't an overwhelming dominant force in CQC like Ei and he had an immortal body against Juubito.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> How -insert character here- acted IC against -insert other characters here- are again not representative of how he'd act IC here.



I'm glad that you've finally realized that. Now:

"How A acted IC against Sasuke or Minato are again not representative of how he'd act IC here."

Hiruzen is hyped for knowing all sorts of ninjutsu. Giving Hiruzen a chance to use those ninjutsu is bad. A will not let Hiruzen use those ninjutsu. Neither Minato nor Sasuke have Hiruzen's ranged capabilities, so A wasn't as worried about them. 

It's "sheer common sense."


----------



## DavyChan (Nov 13, 2015)

*Hokage*

Hashirama
Tobirama
Minato
Tsunade
Danzo
Old Hiruzen

*Mizukage*

Mei
Yagura

*Tsuchikage*

Onoki
Mu

*Kazekage*

Gaara

*Raikage*

A
Darui

*Together*

Hashirama

Tobirama
Minato

Onoki
Mu
Tsunade
A
Gaara
Danzo
Mei
Old Hiruzen
Yagura

Darui


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Orochimaru wasn't making a move against Hiruzen, he was making a move against himself, I.E. he was stabbing himself to ready himself emotionally to take down his former sensei (I would consider this preamble the actual battle beginning). Against Juubito he wasn't standing there, he was taking evasive maneuvers to get out of the way of Juubito's way, than took evasive maneuvers to avoid Tandem Explosive Tags, and than attacked with KB-Shuriken.
> 
> 
> Interesting, the beginning is actually similar to how I think it would go, except I think Hiruzen has enough knowledge on the Raikages and RNY, to know throwing a Shuriken isn't his best option. So it's more like normal battle preamble, Ei begins to ignite RNY, Hiruzen reacts to this using an quick LOS Blocker (if not pulling Enma defense right away) hiding himself from Ei, this gives Hiruzen time establish a more cogent defense; a more permanent LOS-Blocker , Some sort of mind-fuckery (Genjutsu), Enma-Cage, KB, etc... From there Hiruzen will have the normal back and forth for a short period of time, and Hiruzen will ether put one over on Ei or Ei will avoid/tank everything Hiruzen can throw at him, in which case Hiruzen will quickly opt for Shiki Fuujin as he did against the Tensei, and Ei won't be able to avoid the invisible nature of the Shinigami's attack, which ends the match in a draw.
> ...



You wouldn't be able to list even 5 fights in the manga that started from, and then entirely took place from a distance of 100 meters or more. Unless you're firing bijuu bombs or growing city-sized forests, that just doesn't happen. You will find that even solely long ranged fighters don't fight at that kind of distance. And Hiruzen isn't solely a long-ranged fighter.

It's far more likely that, in a hypothetical battle in the manga, they would be fighting at a smaller distance. It might not necessarily be close range, but even 30 or 40 meters is _nothing_ for V2 Ei to flicker across.

And Minato was cited as the fastest man in the world up until Naruto came along. His reflexes were next to none, they aren't even in the same ballpark as Hiruzen's, who according to the databook, is even slower than Tenten, Hidan and Tsunade. Just because Minato could react to Ei from a smaller distance, it doesn't mean Hiruzen could do so from a slightly larger one.

And that's all I have to say on the matter, because I'm not going to spend 84 years reading more 10,000 word paragraphs, soz.​​


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## Turrin (Nov 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm glad that you've finally realized that. Now:
> 
> "How A acted IC against Sasuke or Minato are again not representative of how he'd act IC here."
> 
> Hiruzen is hyped for knowing all sorts of ninjutsu. Giving Hiruzen a chance to use those ninjutsu is bad. A will not let Hiruzen use those ninjutsu. Neither Minato nor Sasuke have Hiruzen's ranged capabilities, so A wasn't as worried about them.


I've never said the situations are exactly the same Rocky. They are different, and therefore Ei has a chance to act differently, but the question is will he, and to me the answer to that is no. Sasuke and Minato both hold greater tangible hype than an over the hill Hiruzen; Ei believed Sasuke defeated Killer-B of all people and Minato had a flee on sight order and was feared far and wide as the Yellow-Flash. If he's willing to allow them the moves he did at 2-5m, I don't find it likely that he will feel the need to so quickly opt for an all out blitz against Old-Hiruzen, just because he knows a-lot of Jutsu. Fuck Ei knows enough about Sharingan's capabilities, that he likely knows that Sasuke has copied a-lot of Jutsu, and despite this, as well as Sasuke greater hype, as well as being Pissed off thinking Sasuke murdered his brother, he still did not act the way your expecting him to. 

The only way I can see one making an argument that he would take Hiruzen more seriously than Sasuke or Minato, is if one argues from the POV that Hiruzen's God of Shinobi, All Jutsu in the Leaf Mastered, strongest Hokage, and strongest Gokage even when Old is true, but if you make the choice to argue from that perspective, than Ei automatically looses anyway, as Hiruzen = Strongest Gokage > Ei. 

So ether Ei automatically looses to Hiruzen or he gives Hiruzen the same amount of time he gave Sasuke and Minato, if not more, and at least has a chance to win or draw. Pick your poison.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> You wouldn't be able to list even 5 fights in the manga that started from, and then entirely took place from a distance of 100 meters or more. It's far more likely that, in a hypothetical battle in the manga, they would be fighting at a smaller distance. It might not necessarily be close range, but even 30 or 40 meters is nothing for V2 Ei to flicker across.


Godaime your shifting the goal post, from the fighters aren't aware of each other commonly at 100m+ to, the battle having to take place entirely from 100m. I never said that, nor would I say that, nor has that ever been the issue at hand. My point is that there are a-lot of scenario's where Hiruzen has enough time to pull out Enma defense before Ei hulk smashes him.

So yes the fight will happen at close range eventually, but before it gets to close range Hiruzen will in most scenario's have a chance to make a few moves, that can enable him to avoid being insta hulk smashed.



> And Minato was cited as the fastest man in the world up until Naruto came along. His reflexes were next to none, they aren't even in the same ballpark as Hiruzen's, who according to the databook, is even slower than Tenten, Hidan and Tsunade. Just because Minato could react to Ei from a smaller distance, it doesn't mean Hiruzen could do so from a slightly larger one.


I think your missing the point, I'm not talking about Hiruzen reacting to Ei, I'm talking about Hiruzen getting Enma defense out before Ei even goes to use his Shunshin blitz, Just like Minato was able to spread his Kunai out before Ei even made the move to blitz him. \



> nd that's all I have to say on the matter, because I'm not going to spend 84 years reading more 10,000 word paragraphs, soz.


I have just one question, is Ei > Tsunade and if not how does Tsunade survive Ei beheading her at match start, before she is able to do anything.


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## Yoko (Nov 13, 2015)

*Top Tier*


[Edo] Bijuu Mode Minato
Sage Mode Hashirama

*High Kage*

Alive Minato
Tobirama
3rd Raikage
4th Raikage
Muu
Onoki
Gengetsu
Danzo

*Mid Kage*

Gaara
Old Hiruzen (assuming Part II inflated stamina)
Sandaime Kazekage (hype)

*Low Kage*

Rasa
Mei
Tsunade
Darui
Yagura


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