# Mu takes a gauntlet



## Horizon28 (Apr 5, 2015)

Location: Madara vs Aillance 
Intel: Full
Conditions: Mu is alive
Distance: 60m
Mindset: IC

1. Sakura and Tsunade
2. War Arc Kakashi
3. Orochimaru
4. Deidara and Sasori
5. Danzo and Hiruzen
6. War Arc Gaara
7. Kisame
8. Itachi
9. Killer Bee
10. MS Obito


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## Bonly (Apr 5, 2015)

Muu stops at round one. Sakura and Tsunade summons 10 percent of the Queen of solo and then they both give the Queen of solo their chakra to boost the Queen's Zesshi Nensan so that Muu enjoys the last few seconds of life in an sea of acid as the Queen of solo does what she does best .

​


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## Ashi (Apr 5, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Muu stops at round one. Sakura and Tsunade summons 10 percent of the Queen of solo and then they both give the Queen of solo their chakra to boost the Queen's Zesshi Nensan so that Muu enjoys the last few seconds of life in an sea of acid as the Queen of solo does what she does best .
> 
> ​



There you have it


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## Icegaze (Apr 6, 2015)

Seriously though cuz i know OP is serious with his thread and doesnt deserve trolling 

Muu stops at round 2. Putting kakashi in round 2 didnt help this thread. this annoying jutsu called kamui wins it


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## Deer Lord (Apr 6, 2015)

Kakashi can't kamui what he can't see 

He loses to deidara and sasori.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 8, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Kakashi can't kamui what he can't see
> 
> He loses to deidara and sasori.



Can't stay invisible forever. Can't use Jinton while invisible either. 

Kakashi is a good tracker. Accute sense of smell, and his dog Summonings will help to detect any slight movements or shifts in the air. Sharingan will also notice the tiniest of details or movements  of footsteps. He may be invisible and he may be able to erase his entire presence, however the sharingan sees the smallest of details. If my moves at al, any change or shift in the air, any step taken, the sharingan will see it.

Tajuu Kage bunshin makes attacking Kakashi poitless. Mix in one lightning bunshin meanwhile the real Kakashi hides underground. If kakashis Lightning clone is hit, Mu risks paralyses. Then the real Kakashi strikes from underground and ends it with a lightning blade.

Only reason kamui would be needed is if Mū is camping in the air. I'd be surprised if the Mangekyou is incapable of seeing through the jutsu to be honest. All I know is 3 tomoe Madara fodderized both Ohnoki and mu at the same time. If mus ability is that great, it would have been effective against Madara.

Conclusion:
Stops at Kakashi


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## Ghost (Apr 8, 2015)

Stops at Kakashi.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

@Rasen i agree with everything u said bar Muu jutsu isnt that great since madara trolled him. well Muu can be invisible all he wants its entirely useless against a susanoo user. all madara would have to do is camp. and muu cant harm him. once he turns visible to use jinton he is beaten to the ground

that doesnt suddenly mean the sharingan can see him while he is invisible however muu invisibility is pointless against kakashi

kakashi got dog summons and clones to make muu invisibility an aimless effort


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## Deer Lord (Apr 8, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Can't stay invisible forever. Can't use Jinton while invisible either.
> 
> Kakashi is a good tracker. Accute sense of smell, and his dog Summonings will help to detect any slight movements or shifts in the air. Sharingan will also notice the tiniest of details or movements  of footsteps. He may be invisible and he may be able to erase his entire presence, however the sharingan sees the smallest of details. If my moves at al, any change or shift in the air, any step taken, the sharingan will see it.
> 
> ...


Half of this doesn't even make sense combat-vise.
Taju kage bunshin? I think you have kakashi and naruto mixed up in there. Kakashi can't form more than a few clones without tyring himself out.

We have no knowledge on how the madara fight went. Also saying kakashi is anywhere near madaras level is ridiculous.

We have no reason to believe sharingan which sees chakra flow can see a jutsu that's designed to hide all traces of chakra 

Dogs ain't doing shit against a flying opponent, kakashi is completely at muu's mercy. I'm pretty sure that he's also a sensor so clones won't do much anyhow.
Muu goes airborne and invisible, gets into position and nukes kakashi to hell.

Kakashi wank in this forums just goes overboard some times.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

sensor or not Muu cant detect a clone from the original 
as much as i despise the kakashi wank i gotta firmly disagree with you deer lord. 

Muu air borne cant harm kakashi either unless he chooses to use jinton which means kakashi can kamui GG him 

if he throws weapons the weapons arent invisible so kakashi will see them 

kakashi doesnt need taju KB. one clone is more than enough to discourage muu from trying an ambush tactic.


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## Deer Lord (Apr 8, 2015)

The point isn't discerning between the clone and the original, it's just knowing that he's making them and adjusting tactics.

All muu has to do is get one jinton off and its game over.
If he wan't to he can fuck kakashi over with earth tech that would give him the opening. But frankly he doesn't need that, invisibility ambuse would be enough.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

yes and jinton is slower than kamui by a huge margin. Muu makes himself visible and dies asap

i think u trolling here. invisibilty is pointless. kakashi makes clones Muu wont attack because failing to kill the original will reveal his location. 

Attempting to use jinton exposes him to a quick death

now if this was kakashi without MS yes Muu would win. but once kamui is in play very annoyingly enough Muu dies

sorry what earth tech did u make up for Muu which allows  him to fuck over kakashi?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Rasen i agree with everything u said bar Muu jutsu isnt that great since madara trolled him. well Muu can be invisible all he wants its entirely useless against a susanoo user. all madara would have to do is camp. and muu cant harm him. once he turns visible to use jinton he is beaten to the ground
> 
> that doesnt suddenly mean the sharingan can see him while he is invisible however muu invisibility is pointless against kakashi
> 
> kakashi got dog summons and clones to make muu invisibility an aimless effort



i dont remember him pulling out susanoo to be honest

ohnoki asks why madara held back. I mean 2 vs 1, yet  mu and ohnoki were both lying ong the ground. meanwhile madara is just standing there with his arms folded. 

here is before the fight started between madara and mu:
pressure and shock from just moving in the Chuunin exams

and this is the fight after:
pressure and shock from just moving in the Chuunin exams
pressure and shock from just moving in the Chuunin exams

notice how madara is still standing in the same spot, hasn't moved an inch. Still using 3 tomoe. HE fodderized them. Sharingan was probably just too much for them. But yeah i agree, invisibility is useless against someone as smart and tactical like kakashi. Completely pointless.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 8, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Half of this doesn't even make sense combat-vise.
> Taju kage bunshin? I think you have kakashi and naruto mixed up in there. Kakashi can't form more than a few clones without tyring himself out.
> 
> We have no knowledge on how the madara fight went. Also saying kakashi is anywhere near madaras level is ridiculous.
> ...



im not gonna debate this more than needed, i know mu can't win.

go back to part 1 and re read then end of the zabuza arc. See how many shadow clones kakashi made, then get back to me. Also keep note that kakashi was almost completely out of chakra after his battle, and he still made that many clones.

You realise any fodder can use multiple shadow clones. Just not thousands like naruto. The fodder Mahiru, that minato killed used 19 shadow clones with ease. Part 1 kakashi made double that amout against Gato's men. The databook lists kakashi as a tajuu kage bunshin user and states that only those of hokage level and a select few are capable. Those select few was referring to kakashi. And now this is war arc kakashi, who is more than kage level


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## LostSelf (Apr 8, 2015)

I am a bit outdated in my knowledge, but as much as i recall... Kakashi needed Zabuza's blood to be able to effectively track him.

If Mu erases everything when he becomes invisible, i don't see Kakashi nor his dogs smelling him. However, Sharingan is a good counter.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

@lostself the sharigan is not a good counter. it cant see chakra that has been erased. kakashi using clones or multi clones is a good counter if the dogs cant find Muu

@Rasen. then madara must have used genjutsu. explains why onoki warns the alliance about madara genjutsu

In short Muu isnt beating kakashi who can use MS. u take that away and muu low diffs


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## LostSelf (Apr 8, 2015)

Mu uses chakra to hide his chakra. Wich helps against sensors. But we don't know how much it would help against Doujutsu capable of seeing chakra even inside the body.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

The alliance had byakugan users yet this wasnt mentioned as a counter. i doubt kishi forgot that


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

Muu makes himself invisible, flies outside Kakashi vision range and one shoots him with a jinton.


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## LostSelf (Apr 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> The alliance had byakugan users yet this wasnt mentioned as a counter. i doubt kishi forgot that



Byakugan users only are Hiashi, Neji, Hinata, that bodyguard whose name i forgot and Neji's sister.

But none of them were in the battlefield as far as i recall.

I am not saying it's a given, but i woudn't discard the Doujutsu seeing through. After all, those are Naruto universe's superior 'tools' that not everybody has. So it doesn't diminish Mu's hype at all.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 8, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Muu makes himself invisible, flies outside Kakashi vision range and one shoots him with a jinton.



meanwhile the real kakashi has already concealed himself underground somewhere. Mu takes out a bunch of clones. Kakashi then uses the knowledge gained from his clones to pinpoint Mu's location. Mu thinking he's won, kakashi catches him off guard with a kamui snipe. GG


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## Deer Lord (Apr 8, 2015)

Pretty sure there are alot more unnamed hyuuga.

Edit:
Rasen: Except muu is a sensor so he'll know if several more chakras suddenly appear in the battlefield.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> meanwhile the real kakashi has already concealed himself underground somewhere. Mu takes out a bunch of clones. Kakashi then uses the knowledge gained from his clones to pinpoint Mu's location. Mu thinking he's won, kakashi catches him off guard with a kamui snipe. GG



If Muu senses more than one Kakashi, he can just wait. Muu has more stamina than Kakashi, he can wait till Kakashi's chakra runs out and kill him when only a single Kakashi remains.


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## SSMG (Apr 8, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> If Muu senses more than one Kakashi, he can just wait.* Muu has more stamina than Kakashi,*he can wait till Kakashi's chakra runs out and kill him when only a single Kakashi remains.




What is the bolded based off? Because the only real showings of muus stamina are as an Edo and off screen fights.. Aka nothing at all to really go off.

As for the topic he loses at round one.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

SSMG said:


> What is the bolded based off? Because the only real showings of muus stamina are as an Edo and off screen fights.. Aka nothing at all to really go off.
> 
> As for the topic he loses at round one.



I'm basing Muu's stamina in old Oonoki's one. I guess that you'll think that Oonoki's statement about him having the same power as when he was alive isn't enough...


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## SSMG (Apr 8, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> I'm basing Muu's stamina in old Oonoki's one. I guess that you'll think that Oonoki's statement about him having the same power as when he was alive isn't enough...



Oonkis statement was strictly about Muus jinton's strength did not diminish from being an Edo.

 But based on Muus splitting jutsu where he is at half of his total chakra showed that Muu cannot use jinton after he splits which tells me his stamina is not great. He can only use one jinton while alive based on this.

Hes definitely not Kakashis level who fought for two days in the war before needing to be replenished.


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## Trojan (Apr 8, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Muu stops at round one. Sakura and Tsunade summons 10 percent of the Queen of solo and then they both give the Queen of solo their chakra to boost the Queen's Zesshi Nensan so that Muu enjoys the last few seconds of life in an sea of acid as the Queen of solo does what she does best .
> 
> ​



Jinton should be affective here tho.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

SSMG said:


> Oonkis statement was strictly about Muus jinton's strength did not diminish from being an Edo.
> 
> But based on Muus splitting jutsu where he is at half of his total chakra showed that Muu cannot use jinton after he splits which tells me his stamina is not great. He can only use one jinton while alive based on this.
> 
> Hes definitely not Kakashis level who fought for two days in the war before needing to be replenished.



His jintons were as powerful as Oonoki's. And Oonoki himself couldn't use his jintons while fatiged. 

He just couldn't do it with half of his chakra, which is normal.

Jinton is not like a raikiri, It use a massive amount of chakra.


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## SSMG (Apr 8, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> His jintons were as powerful as Oonoki's. And Oonoki himself couldn't use his jintons while fatiged.
> 
> He just couldn't do it with half of his chakra, which is normal.
> 
> Jinton is not like a raikiri, It use a massive amount of chakra.



Can you prove Jinton uses more chakra than Raikiri? 

Also Kakashi at half chakra could use Kamui more than once and that is a massive chakra consuming jutsu. This evidence implicates that Kakashi has more stamina than Muu.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

SSMG said:


> Can you prove Jinton uses more chakra than Raikiri?
> 
> Also Kakashi at half chakra could use Kamui more than once and that is a massive chakra consuming jutsu. This evidence implicates that Kakashi has more stamina than Muu.



More or less. Tsunade's seal made Oonoki's jinton bigger. How many times bigger? 20 times or so? Then regular jinton uses 1/20 of Tsunade's seal's chakra.

Kakashi used his MS after using half of his chakra?

Kakashi stated that he didn't have enough chakra to keep KBs for much time.

Also if Kakashi's tactic is to create clones and wait for Muu to show himself. While Muu only needs to keep being invisible and flying... Guess which one drains way more chakra than the other.


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## Icegaze (Apr 9, 2015)

then kakashi hides underground 
and chills
lets see who gets tired first


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> then kakashi hides underground
> and chills
> lets see who gets tired first



You mean who gets gtired first, the one doing the kage bushin, or the one who isn't using any chakra draining ninjutsu?



Kakashi admited that he can't keep the Kage bushin for that long.


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## Icegaze (Apr 9, 2015)

kakashi doesnt need to use kagebunshin 
he just hides underground the second Muu goes invisible 
dont think too hard u might get a head ache


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> kakashi doesnt need to use kagebunshin
> he just hides underground the second Muu goes invisible
> dont think too hard u might get a head ache



HAHAHAHAHAHA

Kakashi hides underground.

Muu detects him anyway because he is a sensor.

Muu uses jinton on Kakashi. Kakashi GG.


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## Icegaze (Apr 9, 2015)

Muu must be visible to use jinton
Muu turns visible kamui GG
its a much quicker technique. i swear feels like am talkign to an imbecile


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Muu must be visible to use jinton
> Muu turns visible kamui GG
> its a much quicker technique. i swear feels like am talkign to an imbecile



If Kakashi is underground how does he use the kamui against Muu 

Kakashi sees throw the ground?

Kakashi can see everything around him?


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## Icegaze (Apr 9, 2015)

yes try to imply Muu can go visible and then fire jinton before kakashi comes out from underground and uses kamui. which is horribly faster than jinton. Already shown in the manga

obito uses kamui on sasuke then on himself and gets away before jinton kills them


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yes try to imply Muu can go visible and then fire jinton before kakashi comes out from underground and uses kamui. which is horribly faster than jinton. Already shown in the manga
> 
> obito uses kamui on sasuke then on himself and gets away before jinton kills them



How does Kakashi know that Muu has make himself visible?

Kakashi is a sensor? He sees throw the ground and also what is on his back?

Your strategy doesn't make sense. If Kakashi hides underground he has no way to detect Muu even if he was visible...


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## Icegaze (Apr 9, 2015)

by sticking his head out. or having one simple clone do that. 
its ridiculous to think simply having 1 clone out for an extened period of time will drain him the way u are implying


i must say this is actual the one thread where u seem to the thinking. i am positively stymied

not bad. there is hope for u....compliment a la mifune


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> by sticking his head out. or having one simple clone do that.
> its ridiculous to think simply having 1 clone out for an extened period of time will drain him the way u are implying
> 
> 
> ...



Kakashi is the one that said that a single clone was already exhausting for him 

And if he sticks his head out Muu simply stabs him in the eye while being invisible 

Try harder, you can do it.


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## Ashi (Apr 9, 2015)

This is the NBD not Chess guys

We can't just make up strategies for the characters to use


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 9, 2015)

Muu goes to fire jinton and he gets warped by War arc kakashi top tier speed kamui.

That is the end of his gauntlet.


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## Ashi (Apr 9, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Muu goes to fire jinton and he gets warped by War arc kakashi top tier speed kamui.
> 
> That is the end of his gauntlet.



blackguy saves the day once again


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## Icegaze (Apr 9, 2015)

haha love the last 2 posts. 
agreed


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## ARGUS (Apr 10, 2015)

if we assume that the sharingan can locate Muu, then he stops at Kakashi, 
otherwise he stops at itachi, or Bee, he would however beat Obito though


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Muu goes to fire jinton and he gets warped by War arc kakashi top tier speed kamui.
> 
> That is the end of his gauntlet.



Muu always starts going invisible.

Kakashi can't see him or aim at all


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## Ashi (Apr 10, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Muu always starts going invisible.
> 
> Kakashi can't see him or aim at all



Then he can't use particle style


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## Ashi (Apr 10, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> if we assume that the sharingan can locate Muu, then he stops at Kakashi,
> otherwise he stops at itachi, or Bee, he would however beat Obito though



How does he beat Obto but lose to Itachi


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Then he can't use particle style



he can use it once he gets to Kakashi's blank point.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 10, 2015)

Couldn't Kakashi just have a clone or Pakkun/other ninja dogs monitor other directions for when Mū reappears?

Like Ohnoki did with his rock clones?


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Couldn't Kakashi just have a clone or Pakkun/other ninja dogs monitor other directions for when Mū reappears?
> 
> Like Ohnoki did with his rock clones?



A clone drains too much energy and Kakashi will pass out first.

And Muu can kill Kakashi's summon with a simple kunai.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 10, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> A clone drains too much energy and Kakashi will pass out first.
> 
> And Muu can kill Kakashi's summon with a simple kunai.



 He could always use a Raiton Bushin once Mu appears to blindside Kakashi. Worth almost 50% of his chakra reserves just to paralyze Mu IMO.

 I understand Mu can use Jinton, but it clearly was more effective to blindside someone physically as Mu did against Onoki.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> He could always use a Raiton Bushin once Mu appears to blindside Kakashi. Worth almost 50% of his chakra reserves just to paralyze Mu IMO.
> 
> I understand Mu can use Jinton, but it clearly was more effective to blindside someone physically as Mu did against Onoki.



Muu is a sensor, he can feel that there are 2 Kakashi, and he isn't stupid enough to go cqc against what It could be a raiton bushin.


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## Ashi (Apr 10, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> A clone drains too much energy and Kakashi will pass out first.
> 
> And Muu can kill Kakashi's summon with a simple kunai.



Oh brother what did I say about this NOT being a chess match?


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Oh brother what did I say about this NOT being a chess match?



You mean that what you say isn't just your opinion but a fact?


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 10, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Muu is a sensor, he can feel that there are 2 Kakashi, and he isn't stupid enough to go cqc against what It could be a raiton bushin.



 "Then someday, you'll die against opponent*s* that are more troublesome than Orochimaru."

 Nagato's a sensor as well yet was completely caught off-guard by Kakashi's Raiton Bushin, so clearly sensing isn't really going to help Muu avoid a Raiton Bushin feint.

 "Then someday, you'll die against opponent*s* that are more troublesome than Orochimaru."

 This is Nagato acknowledging Kakashi's intelligence as Kakashi managed to prepare a bushin feint before Nagato could detect it.

 "Then someday, you'll die against opponent*s* that are more troublesome than Orochimaru."

 Here, Kakashi managed to nearly pierce Deva Path despite Nagato's sensing. 

 "Then someday, you'll die against opponent*s* that are more troublesome than Orochimaru."

 And here, Deva Path deduced he wasn't a Kage Bushin due to his physical state, not his sensing, and even then, he was cautious about a potential Bushin feint, or trick meaning Kakashi could very well catch Muu off-guard even with sensing considering Deva Path's fear of being caught in a potential trap. It's also significant to point out that every trap Kakashi used on Deva Path was never completely evaded or countered by Deva Path meaning a superior Kakashi (War Arc Kakashi) could very well tip things in his favor if he ever does catch Muu off-guard with a potential trap which will devastate Muu as he has no one to protect him unlike Deva Path who had Asura Path and the ability to use a jutsu as a defense without the use of his arms whereas Mu has no such thing.

 "Then someday, you'll die against opponent*s* that are more troublesome than Orochimaru."

 Nagato didn't realize Kakashi used Kamui almost instantaneously on the nail until after Kakashi revealed he was alive and used Kamui to protect Chouji. Using this, he can definitely Kamui Mu's head off. It's also important to indicate that he managed to warp Sasuke's Susano'o Arrows without Sasuke detecting it or that he managed to use Kamui instantaneously and managed to bypass Obito's reactions because of it. The latter is still impressive as Obito couldn't detect the 2nd Kamui Warp used * immediately * after the 1st one despite Precognition.

 Yeah, Kakashi has this mid-difficulty IMO.


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## Ashi (Apr 10, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> You mean that what you say isn't just your opinion but a fact?



Fine then If thats how it is 


Kakashi using the lightning cable and just runs a long until he slices Mu's head off

GG


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Fine then If thats how it is
> 
> 
> Kakashi using the lightning cable and just runs a long until he slices Mu's head off
> ...



What lighting cable?

Also @Narutox22 Muu is a better sensor than Nagato.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 10, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> What lighting cable?
> 
> Also @Narutox22 Muu is a better sensor than Nagato.



 I want to see your reasoning behind this because so far, I am not convinced.


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## ARGUS (Apr 10, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> How does he beat Obto but lose to Itachi



assuming that the sharingan cant locate muu when hes invisible then this is probably the case, 

*Obito*

 -- he cant defend himself from attacks that he cant even see, when hes tangible then he can be sensed since his chakra would be present in the real dimension, so muu is definitely landing his blows and an invisible kenjutsu attack would behead him 

 -- muu can use fission to multiply his chances in attacking obito, as the instant he attempts to attack one of muus, then the other half comes up and slices him in half,, 

*Itachi*

 -- all he needs is ribcage susanoo to survive muus attacks for a short amount of time, infact susanooo isnt needed since he can just use clones to confuse him and allow him an opening the instant he attempts to attack one of them and even if a clone gets poofed, then the information gets processed to the original and itachi gets the whereabouts of his locattion meaning that muu gets attacked by itachi

 -- he can also send iin a bunch of crows and if muu even looks at them then hes getting caught in genjtusu, 

scan
scan
scan 

 -- as shown from the scans itachi can disguise himself through crows as well and considering the fact that eye contact with the crows is bound to happen due to intel then muu is getting caught, or atleast leaving a ttrail for itachi to attack 

 -- using jinton is moot infront since it gets intercepted with amaterasu or by yasaka magatama either of which are severely damaging muu


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I want to see your reasoning behind this because so far, I am not convinced.



Muu cannot only localizate where the people are based on their chakra, he can also sense who is family with who and who belong to the same village based on their chakra patrons. He laso showed to have better predicting capacity based on their sensing skills.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 11, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Muu cannot only localizate where the people are based on their chakra, he can also sense who is family with who and who belong to the same village based on their chakra patrons. He laso showed to have better predicting capacity based on their sensing skills.



 That's undeniably true, Mu actively uses sensing in combat while Nagato's isn't as effective for combat, but that doesn't necessarily mean his skill in sensing the presence of others is inferior.

 Mu's ability to sense people's chakra and identify which village they come from is based on the fact that he has more experience dealing with other villages than Nagato does, therefore, he has an idea of which chakras come from which village.

 Still, the fact that Kakashi managed a Raiton Bushin while Pain had an enhanced LOS due to Asura Path implies that Kakashi can land that same trick on Muu, considering Jiraiya implies that vision >> sensing even from a skilled sensor and we have to take into consideration that Nagato had both here.

 I'm also not sure whether or not Muu can sense others while camouflaged as Mu (from what I remember, so correct me if I'm wrong) can hide his presence from other sensors and the only method that was shown to be able to do that is concealing their own chakra which was shown to render Karin, one of the most skilled sensors in the manga unable to use her sensing capabilities.


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## Ashi (Apr 12, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> assuming that the sharingan cant locate muu when hes invisible then this is probably the case,
> 
> *Obito*
> 
> ...



Muu doesn't use Kenjutsu during the war so I think that's the one we should look at(besides if it were that easy he just would have beheaded Madara)

And Sasuke looked into Itachi's eyes in that panel not the crows as for the next one we already know Itachi incinerated that crow


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That's undeniably true, Mu actively uses sensing in combat while Nagato's isn't as effective for combat, but that doesn't necessarily mean his skill in sensing the presence of others is inferior.
> 
> Mu's ability to sense people's chakra and identify which village they come from is based on the fact that he has more experience dealing with other villages than Nagato does, therefore, he has an idea of which chakras come from which village.
> 
> ...



Muu can sense others even while invisible. And being able to use his sensing in battle is what makes the difference between being trick by a bushin or not.


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## ARGUS (Apr 13, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Muu doesn't use Kenjutsu during the war so I think that's the one we should look at(besides if it were that easy he just would have beheaded Madara)
> 
> And Sasuke looked into Itachi's eyes in that panel not the crows as for the next one we already know Itachi incinerated that crow



I did take kenjutsu into account, invisibility as a whole is taken into account 
As for the crow genjutsu. Naruto got caught within an instant, 
Muu looks at the crow and he gets caught he isn't any exception


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

I should point out that using clones against Muu isnt as effective as i originally thought. onoki used said tactic and Muu defeated all the clones before onoki could do much of anything 

i say if kakashi doesnt use kamui off the bat he looses. 

As for the likes of itachi, i believe using crows to screw up Muu sensing might be a way to go. also coudl work for tactile sensing. 

both kakashi and itachi tactic would be if i cant locate the enemy the enemy shouldnt find me either. However muu ability at finding them exceeds theirs Muu might beat both.

Muu either stops at kakashi or killer bee. if Muu can beat kakashi the same tactic will work on itachi


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 13, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Muu can sense others even while invisible. And being able to use his sensing in battle is what makes the difference between being trick by a bushin or not.



 Sure. That doesn't refute the fact that Kakashi managed a bushin feint against Nagato at close range when he had shared field of vision which is superior to skilled sensing. It's not like Mu's invincible to trickery either such as when KCM Naruto extended his chakra arm for the Rasengan to hit. Clearly Mu should've been able to sense the chakra build-up, but he didn't.

 Do you have a scan that Mu can sense others while invisible?

 ^ Sure Icegaze, but Kakashi's a master of bushin feints. Onoki was not and had no real intention of using it to trick Mu. It's no surprise Muu managed to beat all of Onoki's clones which are weaker than himself.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 14, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sure. That doesn't refute the fact that Kakashi managed a bushin feint against Nagato at close range when he had shared field of vision which is superior to skilled sensing. It's not like Mu's invincible to trickery either such as when KCM Naruto extended his chakra arm for the Rasengan to hit. Clearly Mu should've been able to sense the chakra build-up, but he didn't.
> 
> Do you have a scan that Mu can sense others while invisible?
> 
> ^ Sure Icegaze, but Kakashi's a master of bushin feints. Onoki was not and had no real intention of using it to trick Mu. It's no surprise Muu managed to beat all of Onoki's clones which are weaker than himself.



Muu=/=Nagato

Kakashi being able to trick a Nagato that was dozens of kilometres away and fighting a whole village =/= him tricking a single Muu focused on him

Muu sensed Naruto, who was behind him, while invisible and set up a trap.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 14, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Muu=/=Nagato
> 
> Kakashi being able to trick a Nagato that was dozens of kilometres away and fighting a whole village =/= him tricking a single Muu focused on him
> 
> Muu sensed Naruto, who was behind him, while invisible and set up a trap.



 Mu wasn't invisible.

 Nagato sees everything Pain sees meaning he's not witnessing things kilometers away.

 But like I said, Shared vision > Sensing which you haven't refuted along with the fact that Nagato has sensing as well. Mu sensed a KCM Naruto charging up from behind. Kakashi's far more cautious, intelligent and is very secretive in his usage of jutsus meaning he can catch Mu by surprise.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 14, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Mu wasn't invisible.
> 
> Nagato sees everything Pain sees meaning he's not witnessing things kilometers away.
> 
> But like I said, Shared vision > Sensing which you haven't refuted along with the fact that Nagato has sensing as well. Mu sensed a KCM Naruto charging up from behind. Kakashi's far more cautious, intelligent and is very secretive in his usage of jutsus meaning he can catch Mu by surprise.



Muu was invisible, till he set up the trap, became visible as he prepared and jinton and dodged Naruto.

Nagato was dozens of kilometres away, he can see what pain sees, but his chakra sensor capacity stays with him dozens of kilometres away.

Chakra sensing =/= Shared vision
Nagato =/= Muu

Muu is way more intelligent when It comes to combat and way more cautious. 

Oonoki tried to use clones against Muu, and even had help from Gaara to detect him. They still would have die if It wasn't for Naruto, and even then Muu tricked them and survived.

Muu wasn't sealed by the alliance, he wasn't defeated. He showed to be able to defeat Oonoki and Gaara by himself, and even to be able to trick KCM Naruto+Gaara+Oonoki and escape.

Muu is a high level Kage, with his stats quite balanced. Kakashi is a low to mid level Kage with a top kage level jutsu (the kamui).


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## Bonly (Apr 14, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> assuming that the sharingan cant locate muu when hes invisible then this is probably the case,
> 
> *Obito*
> 
> ...



Obito still has access to Izanagi which he can use for five minutes straight which allows him to respawn wherever he wants so Obito could still come out on top depending on how things play out


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

No doubt obito shoudl beat Muu

However its nice to know that Muu chances of beating kakashi or itachi have massively improved. Based on how Muu dealt with onoki clones. Using clones doesnt help all that much. Muu can still fire jinton from every clone blind spot and could kill them 

However its not so obvious, i still think kakashi could use kamui to escape jinton. Appear behind Muu and kill him. While itachi might land a genjutsu 

50/50 against either, much better odds than what i thought they were before

@Zuhaitz first time i must agree with ur post 

spot on


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## Veracity (Apr 14, 2015)

What ? Mu would stop at round one. 2 mid tiered kage would destroy him.

Muu would possibly even be crushed by virtue of simply summoning 10% Katsuyu. It's much bigger than a meteor and closer to the size of the Juubi. It also could spit Kyyubi sized acid blasts and split into hundreds of boss summon sized slugs.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

@likeboss 
how would they destroy someone who can fly and one they cant see. Muu gets behind them jinton GG
100 tsunade's will loose to Muu just as easily as one. 
not wanking here but Muu is a disgusting counter to everything sakura and tsunade have

his move can 1 shot them. while they cant even fight back cuz they cant see him till jinton is already on its way towards them

10% katsuyu is huge but are u saying Muu flight cant exceed the size of katsuyu. again not like he needs to attack katsuyu. he kills the summoner. goes invisible and waits katsuyu summoning time to run out 

as to the 100 of boss sized slugs. feel free to show feats of that. 

again none of that prevents Muu from appearing in their blind spot with a jinton good to go and kill them.


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## Veracity (Apr 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @likeboss
> how would they destroy someone who can fly and one they cant see. Muu gets behind them jinton GG
> 100 tsunade's will loose to Muu just as easily as one.
> not wanking here but Muu is a disgusting counter to everything sakura and tsunade have
> ...



Why the  " giogio " face as if Muu could possibly escape the AoE of a JUUBI sized katsuyu instantly being summoned onto him? His flight speed has never been highlighted, and Tsuande/sakura don't need to see him to summon Katsuyu in his area. I mean do you have any feats to suggest he can ? 

That would be cool and all if Muu could Jinton while being invisible. But he can't. He needs to become visible to shoot Jinton and with massive Katsuyu units on the land + Shinobi capable of hearing heartbeats would mean Muu is detected as soon as he's visible. Then you have, a juubi sized Katusyu capable of spitting acid large enough to overwhelmed Muu easily.

Well.... The summoning Justu appears instantly, so a juubi sized Katsuyu would instantly appear above Muu not giving him the time to charge Jinton. He would be crushed. It's like food cart destroyer with something 100x the size. And I really don't have to prove why something that is the size of the juubi( BM BEE= Juubis finger) and capable of splitting up , wouldn't be able to split up into a shit ton of boss sized entities.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Why the  " giogio " face as if Muu could possibly escape the AoE of a JUUBI sized katsuyu instantly being summoned onto him? His flight speed has never been highlighted, and Tsuande/sakura don't need to see him to summon Katsuyu in his area. I mean do you have any feats to suggest he can ?



so then wont tsunade and sakura be crushed by this apparent juubi size katsuyu with no feats of it ever appearing on panel. 
or do u have feats to suggest they can outpace it. or would it somehow appear above Muu because u want it to?
 if he is 1 m behind them. they can summon a 99999KM katsuyu infront of them and unless they getting themseleves crushed Muu will still be just fine and unaffected. hence the very much deserved face 



> That would be cool and all if Muu could Jinton while being invisible. But he can't. He needs to become visible to shoot Jinton and with massive Katsuyu units on the land + Shinobi capable of hearing heartbeats would mean Muu is detected as soon as he's visible. Then you have, a juubi sized Katusyu capable of spitting acid large enough to overwhelmed Muu easily.



none of them on the battlefield are sensors. If muu turns visible directly above tsunade and sakura they have no way to tell he is there. they dont have eyes behind their backs. or do u have feats of either reacting to attacks behind them  
she can hear heart beat good for her. Who says Muu heart will be audible enough to hear. grasping at straws there. Muu is called the man with no prescence if all that was needed was being able to hear his heart beat finding him wont be an issue. 

Again feats of juubi sized katsuyu since u asked for feats of Muu speed. see how that works



> Well.... The summoning Justu appears instantly, so a juubi sized Katsuyu would instantly appear above Muu not giving him the time to charge Jinton. He would be crushed. It's like food cart destroyer with something 100x the size. And I really don't have to prove why something that is the size of the juubi( BM BEE= Juubis finger) and capable of splitting up , wouldn't be able to split up into a shit ton of boss sized entities.



instantly appearing above the victim is FCD. not a jutsu sakura or tsunade have. try harder 

loool its nothign like food cart destroyer. if summoning was like FCD
FCD wont be a technique. 
try alot harder 

so u fanfic gave them FCD. thats cute. kishi doesnt list them as users of the technique. 

they will summon katsuyu in front of them. therefore not above Muu. so Muu isnt going to suddenly find himself under it

also he has light weight technique. exhausted onoki could make a meteor light 
So Muu can make katsuyu light

thats if we want to give sakura and tsunade ur hand me down FCD


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## Veracity (Apr 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so then wont tsunade and sakura be crushed by this apparent juubi size katsuyu with no feats of it ever appearing on panel.
> or do u have feats to suggest they can outpace it. or would it somehow appear above Muu because u want it to?
> if he is 1 m behind them. they can summon a 99999KM katsuyu infront of them and unless they getting themseleves crushed Muu will still be just fine and unaffected. hence the very much deserved face
> 
> ...



? 
Why would Tsuande and sakura be crushed by something they summoned in front of them ? When is anyone ever crushed by summoning their own summon?

Do you seriously want my to provide feats of 10% Katusyu ? You know it appeared in the manga right ?

You don't deserve to use that face as you don't know what I'm talking about here. As soon as Muu goes airborne and turn invisible, all they have to do is summon Katsuyu in that general vicinity. It's pretty simple actually.

Why does anyone have to be a sensor when they have eyes ...? Muu needs to appear to use Jinton, it's literally as simple as that. You would have a point if Muu could use the Justu while invisible but he cannot. 

I mean when Muu becomes visible, Tsuande could probably locate him via her magical ears. He can be sensed when he's not uaing his invisible Justu. Unless I'm mistaken...

Food cart destroyer is simply a summoning being summoned above the enemy. Notice that I said its " like food cart destroyer" in the sense that all Tsuande and sakura have to do is summon Katusyu, and anything under the massive slug is crushed. And you do realize the only reason a summoning ever appears on the ground is because the user choses to summon to it from the ground. They could easily summon it higher and crush targets under it. 

Muu cannot react to an actual summoning Justu as it is instant. Meaning he could be crushed before he could activate a Justu to lighten it's weight.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

> Likes boss said:
> 
> 
> > ?
> ...


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