# Spiral Zetsu vs Itachi Uchiha



## DayDream (Jul 14, 2016)

Ok , so this'll be my first thread here , hopefully i'll leave a good impression .
- Area : konoha crater .
- Knowledge : full .
- Ristrections : no .
- Distance : 40 m .
- Zetsu starts on top of the Buddha statue , and Itachi in V4 Susano'o .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Jul 14, 2016)

Zetsu and his buddha gets stabbed and sealed. All his elemental attacks gets bounced back by Yata Mirror. Amateratsu might burn it all down as well.


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## Trojan (Jul 14, 2016)

Zetsu is going to win most likely. 
Those Wooden structures are portrayed and proven to be stronger than Susanoo.


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## KiNGPiN (Jul 14, 2016)

mini Hashirama wins


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## oiety (Jul 14, 2016)

How would the Yata Mirror function under simultaneous pressure? Would multiple attacks that hit at exactly the same time nullify the elemental blocking feature of the Yata Mirror? Even if so I'd probably still give it to Itachi to win, albeit High Diff. Even Karin was able to avoid the Buddha's attacks and damage it, after all.


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## Bonly (Jul 14, 2016)

Itachi shows SZ what it feels like to poo and he then SZ catches the Totsuka blade to enjoy the feeling of pooing for the rest of time

Reactions: Like 1


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## sanninme rikudo (Jul 14, 2016)

Zetsu finds himself in the bottle……


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## DayDream (Jul 14, 2016)

Anyone cares to post a real argumentation other than zetsu gets this , or zetsu gets that ? 
I don't see Itachi's susanoo tanking choju kebutsu , spiral zetsu was taking on the entire SA and the 5 kages at the same time .


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## hbcaptain (Jul 14, 2016)

Totsuka gg.
Zetsu's Boudha is so weak that even Mei tanks his strikes and Base Ei slice one of his hands . Comparing such a weakling to Susano'o equiped with Yata&Totsuka is just laughable .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 14, 2016)

Itachi rapes.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 14, 2016)

As much as I love J Man,he gets thrashed here!


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## DayDream (Jul 14, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> J Man


I'm sorry but , i think you should read OP again lol .


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 14, 2016)

DayDream said:


> I'm sorry but , i think you should read OP again lol .


Ah sorry my Phone makes some lags and it loaded the wrong Thread! My apologies!


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## DayDream (Jul 14, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Ah sorry my Phone makes some lags and it loaded the wrong Thread! My apologies!


Sure thing , what about the match up ?


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 14, 2016)

Hard to decide,but I guess Itachi will.be able to triumph with High Difficulty if he manages to pierce the Small SS with Totsuka!


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## Sapherosth (Jul 15, 2016)

DayDream said:


> Anyone cares to post a real argumentation other than zetsu gets this , or zetsu gets that ?
> I don't see Itachi's susanoo tanking choju kebutsu , spiral zetsu was taking on the entire SA and the 5 kages at the same time .




Non of the SA had the tools to defeat the miniature buddha, plus they were considerably exhausted, including the 5 kages.

Considering how Karin's chains....KARIN OF ALL PEOPLE.....were able to contend with


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## DayDream (Jul 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Considering how Karin's chains....KARIN OF ALL PEOPLE.....were able to contend with


Dem uzumaki chains ......
Also how was the 5 kages exhausted ? they were back at least 90 % of their strength after being healed . Zetsu overwhelmed everyone dude !


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## hbcaptain (Jul 15, 2016)

So now Karin is stronger than the 5 Kage, and where do you place Kushina who is stated far above her ?


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## Sapherosth (Jul 15, 2016)

DayDream said:


> Dem uzumaki chains ......
> Also how was the 5 kages exhausted ? they were back at least 90 % of their strength after being healed . Zetsu overwhelmed everyone dude !



I can't imagine them being at full strength after being so close to death recently.

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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Totsuka gg.
> Zetsu's Boudha is so weak that even Mei tanks his strikes and Base Ei slice one of his hands . Comparing such a weakling to Susano'o equiped with Yata&Totsuka is just laughable .


This is a weak argument.

Mei also tanked Asspulldara's Susanoo punch, I guess it also too weak? 



Additionally, the Buddha's power is not in term of a single strike, but rather in term of the sheer number, and continuous attacks. Just like how Hashirama did not destroy Asspulldara's PS with 1 attack either, does that mean it's weak?


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## hbcaptain (Jul 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> This is a weak argument.
> 
> Mei also tanked Asspulldara's Susanoo punch, I guess it also too weak?
> 
> ...


Madara' clones are too weak, they can't even beaat Mei Terumi in 10 chapters . What you said is irrelevant not to mention they are much more durable than the weak Boudha 'cause V2 Ei couldn't scratch them while his base weackened version low diffed Boudha's hand .

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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Madara' clones are too weak, they can't even beaat Mei Terumi in 10 chapters . What you said is irrelevant not to mention they are much more durable than the weak Boudha 'cause V2 Ei couldn't scratch them while his base weackened version low diffed Boudha's hand .



Where was it stated that they are "too weak" exactly? 
The only thing that was stated about them is "they are too strong"

- You just try to find excuses. Tsunade also destroyed the Susanoo's swords, I guess they are too weak just 
as much? 

- Yeah, and V2 A was fighting alone against 5 of those Susanoo and even holding 1 up with 1 hand.
Yet this "weak" Buddha was taking on the Kages and the SA at once. 

If anything, this shows that this Buddha is stronger than all of Asspulldara's Susnoos at once. lol


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## hbcaptain (Jul 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Where was it stated that they are "too weak" exactly?
> The only thing that was stated about them is "they are too strong"
> 
> - You just try to find excuses. Tsunade also destroyed the Susanoo's swords, I guess they are too weak just
> ...


Shikamaru stated SA and Gokage were out of chakra and they couldn't fight anymore, he said only Edo Hiruzen could fight . Yet the out of chakra weakened Ei managed to slide on Boudha's hands just like that, coincidence ? Against , Susano'o he could only scratch him a little while in V1/V2 .
And sorry, but if the 5 Suano'o couldn't even beat Mei in 10 chapters, then tehy are trash , comparing them to MS Sasuke or Itachi is quite laughable .


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## DayDream (Jul 15, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> And sorry, but if the 5 Suano'o couldn't even beat Mei in 10 chapters, then tehy are trash , comparing them to MS Sasuke or Itachi is quite laughable .


Again using bad logic , how is this proof that the susanoo clones are weak , rather than the kages being tough .


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## hbcaptain (Jul 15, 2016)

DayDream said:


> Again using bad logic , how is this proof that the susanoo clones are weak , rather than the kages being tough .


Gaara<Deidara<Hebi Sasuke<<Itacchi .
Iam not talking about A<B<C logic but Gaara, Deidara and Hebi Sasuke are at most the same cateory and far below Itachi .


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Shikamaru stated SA and Gokage were out of chakra and they couldn't fight anymore, he said only Edo Hiruzen could fight . Yet the out of chakra weakened Ei managed to slide on Boudha's hands just like that, coincidence ? Against , Susano'o he could only scratch him a little while in V1/V2 .
> And sorry, but if the 5 Suano'o couldn't even beat Mei in 10 chapters, then tehy are trash , comparing them to MS Sasuke or Itachi is quite laughable .



Even tho I agree that the Kage were not at full power when the faced him, but neither were they when they faced the clones. 
For example:
Gaara & Onoki were just done dealing with the Kages (Mu & Gengetsu)
Mei was fighting Zetsu
A & Tsunade got a lot of damage from the teleportation.

They had to fight Madara for a long time before they were against the clones as well. And so on.

- It really does not matter if he broke just 1 arm. The Buddha is not like the Susanoo with only 1 arm. It can fight with several arms, and all elements...etc etc. Stop making such a big deal out of it. 

- then your argument will be even more laughable. By your own logic, itachi fell short by SOUNDS 5 PART 1 Jutsu, that even gennin were able to handle them. 

So, if itachi can't handle Sound 5 jutsu, then it's only logical that he will get the Susanoo's swords up his ass.

And please don't even try to say those sounds 5 are stronger than Asspulldara.


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## DayDream (Jul 15, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Gaara<Deidara<Hebi Sasuke<<Itacchi .
> Iam not talking about A<B<C logic but Gaara, Deidara and Hebi Sasuke are at most the same cateory and far below Itachi .


What the hell does that has to do with anything ?
You do know people can get stronger over time , don't you , thus the same can be said about Gaara getting stronger and having better feats at the war time .
Also , the soul reason Gaara lost was because he was fighting in his own village and had to protect his people .
And let's not fool ourselves , Sasuke almost got killed against Deidara , and he only did so much because of elemental disadvantage , Raiton being Stronger than Doton , this says nothing about how Gaara is compared to hebi Sasuke . who i should say is very overrated to say the least .
Itachi could beat any of the kages 1 on 1 , but there are who can beat him , or at the very least give him an extreme high diff fight , he doesn't stand a snow ball chance in hell against all of them together .
Your argument has no feet to stand on at all .

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## DayDream (Jul 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Gaara & Onoki were just done dealing with the Kages (Mu & Gengetsu)
> Mei was fighting Zetsu
> A & Tsunade got a lot of damage from the teleportation.
> 
> They had to fight Madara for a long time before they were against the clones as well. And so on.


Yeah , that is very true .


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Gaara<Deidara<Hebi Sasuke<<Itacchi .
> Iam not talking about A<B<C logic but Gaara, Deidara and Hebi Sasuke are at most the same cateory and far below Itachi .


Your logic is just -not so good-  to say it nicely.

Gaara got much stronger over the arcs. Heck, Dediara got fodderized by Sai in the war arc. By your logic

Sai > Hebi Sasuke > Deidara?

Itachi got his ass kicked by Tayuya's Genjutsu.

So, I guess Temari > Tayuya > itachi.

And this proves that itachi is trash and weak as fuck because he got his ass handled to him by Tayuya? 
Nice logic!

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## hbcaptain (Jul 15, 2016)

DayDream said:


> What the hell does that has to do with anything ?
> You do know people can get stronger over time , don't you , thus the same can be said about Gaara getting stronger and having better feats at the war time .
> Also , the soul reason Gaara lost was because he was fighting in his own village and had to protect his people .
> And let's not fool ourselves , Sasuke almost got killed against Deidara , and he only did so much because of elemental disadvantage , Raiton being Stronger than Doton , this says nothing about how Gaara is compared to hebi Sasuke . who i should say is very overrated to say the least .
> ...


1)Gaara lost Shukaku, he wasn't given a magical PU, some divine Dojutsu, DNA, Hashi cells, SM, KCM, and so . So yeah he got weackened, few months aren't enough to repalce such a loss
2)Deidara was out of clay when he fought Gaara .
3)Deidara fought to capture Gaara not to kill him .
4)Sasuke's elementar advantage only helped him aginst the second C4, and he said he had a second option other than Raiton .
5)Sasuke was fighting to capture Deidara and Deidara was fighting to kill Sasuke .

So yeah Gaara is at most at Hebi Sasuke's level just beeing gentle, yet he managed to handle 5 Susano'o clones for 10 chapters, that's why Madara's clonesa re trash and extremely weak in comparison .



Hussain said:


> Even tho I agree that the Kage were not at full power when the faced him, but neither were they when they faced the clones.
> For example:
> Gaara & Onoki were just done dealing with the Kages (Mu & Gengetsu)
> Mei was fighting Zetsu
> ...


That confirms Madara's clones are even  more trash, they couldn't even beat some low Kage levels in 10 chapters and even lost to weakned Jintonless Onoki and yu still comparing them to Itachi.....Do you think one weakned Low Kage level stand a chance against 5 Itachi at once ?


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## hbcaptain (Jul 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Your logic is just -not so good-  to say it nicely.
> 
> Gaara got much stronger over the arcs. Heck, Dediara got fodderized by Sai in the war arc. By your logic
> 
> ...


No first, Hebi Sasuke was stated above an Akatsuki member in general power according to the Databook. Deidara was just too careless in the war Arc nothing like whe he fought Gaara and Sasuke a real 1 on 1 battle . Tayuya's Genjutsu was amped by Senjutsu chakra, he was fighting SM Kabuto not Tayuya . Bring Toroi raise his stats 100 times more and he beats Pain .


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> That confirms Madara's clones are even  more trash, they couldn't even beat some low Kage levels in 10 chapters and even lost to weakned Jintonless Onoki and yu still comparing them to Itachi.....Do you think one weakned Low Kage level stand a chance against 5 Itachi at once ?



Lol, no. You are trying your hardest to downplay the Kages by underestimating the clones
just in order to overestimate itachi and puts him way above his actual level.

And all you are doing is just talk without any evidence to why we should belive your downplay in the first place.
Can you show us or prove how itachi is stronger than them exactly?



hbcaptain said:


> No first, Hebi Sasuke was stated above an Akatsuki member in general power according to the Databook. Deidara was just too careless in the war Arc nothing like whe he fought Gaara and Sasuke a real 1 on 1 battle . Tayuya's Genjutsu was amped by Senjutsu chakra, he was fighting SM Kabuto not Tayuya . Bring Toroi raise his stats 100 times more and he beats Pain .



And the Kages are also stated to be the strongest in their village. So, Tsunade (Hokage) > Itachi (Not a hokage).
Or does this logic  not apply now that it's against itachi? 



> Hebi Sasuke was stated above an Akatsuki member in general power according to the Databook.



Well, then why did you say this?


> Gaara<Deidara<Hebi Sasuke<<Itacchi .


Itachi is also an Akatsuki member. Therefore, Hebi Sasuke is above him in the general power, no? 



> . Tayuya's Genjutsu was amped by Senjutsu chakra, he was fighting SM Kabuto not Tayuya


And Kabuto with SM is stronger than Asspulldara with Hashi's cells and the Rinnegan now? 



> Bring Toroi raise his stats 100 times more


Proof that it raises his stats 100 times? 

I see you throwing a lot of things without any sort of evidence whatsoever, and every time I ask you to prove what you say you can't do it. What does that tell you?


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## Icegaze (Jul 15, 2016)

Itachi should win this 
The Budda doesn't have feats to suggest it breaches susanoo 
Amaterasu spreading also means Budda gets stopped 

If it could stop Hachibi in a few panels it should stop Budda 

I understand the stalling the kage thing 

But I think people in NF are thick when they act like type match ups aren't a thing

Budda is tough to deal with if you don't have the tools for it 

Onoki without jinton can't 

A simply can't . His jutsu don't allow it 

Mei who was getting her chakra absorbed can't 

Etc 

It is to note that apparently Budda was absorbing chakra 

Not sure how but taking that on board 

Itachi only shot is tskuyomi


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## DayDream (Jul 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> The Budda doesn't have feats to suggest it breaches susanoo
> Amaterasu spreading also means Budda gets stopped
> 
> If it could stop Hachibi in a few panels it should stop Budda


- Itachi's susanoo doesn't have feats to say it can tank Chojo kebutsu .
- Amaterasu burns very slow as shown with Karin .
- The buddha isn't a living being like Hachibi , it doesn't feel pain .


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## Sapherosth (Jul 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Itachi should win this
> The Budda doesn't have feats to suggest it breaches susanoo
> Amaterasu spreading also means Budda gets stopped
> 
> ...




Not sure why Tosuka or Yata aren't mentioned?


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Not sure why Tosuka or Yata aren't mentioned?


No one mentioned the Wooden Golem as well. Even tho the Databook stated that Zetsu can use it. 

page 299
Mokujin no jutsu (literally wood human)
Ninjutsu,kekke-genkai,no range,defensive,offensive.
Users:Hashirama Senju/Zetsu.
*Descending God,that makes everyone get crushed by their karma(repent for their sins)! *

God of shinobi Hashirama Senju was very good at ninjutsu. By given chakra to make wood (wood release) grow faster,to take shape into very big/gigantic mokujin. The giant excels in defense and offense,and has strong physical attacks.During the battle with Madara it was on par with 9-tails. Mokujin head also can be a protective shelter for Hashirama, turning itself into defense of unrivaled sturdiness.
Picture: Hashirama used this jutsu to catch and return back bijudama with just one hand. Jutsu only achieved because of Hashirama s naturally (literally chakra reserves in gene cells) large chakra.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 15, 2016)

DayDream said:


> - Itachi's susanoo doesn't have feats to say it can tank Chojo kebutsu .
> - Amaterasu burns very slow as shown with Karin .
> - The buddha isn't a living being like Hachibi , it doesn't feel pain .



The buddha doesn't have any feats of being able to tank Tosuka stab or Amateratsu. Fires > Wood, in case you haven't noticed.... Especially Amateratsu, the strongest form of flame.

I can also say that Amateratsu burns very fast as shown with Toad Stomach (flame resistant).


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## Sapherosth (Jul 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> No one mentioned the Wooden Golem as well. Even tho the Databook stated that Zetsu can use it.
> 
> page 299
> Mokujin no jutsu (literally wood human)
> ...



Judging by how small the buddha is compared to its original Buddha that Hashirama used, the scale of Zetsu's golem is probably as big as a human ck

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## DayDream (Jul 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> The buddha doesn't have any feats of being able to tank Tosuka stab


Or 1 hand holds his Susanoo's arm in place while the rest pound it into oblivion. ?


Sapherosth said:


> Amateratsu. Fires > Wood, in case you haven't noticed.... Especially Amateratsu, the strongest form of flame.


Amaterasu isn't burning down the statue before choju kebutsu plows through his susanoo .


Sapherosth said:


> I can also say that Amateratsu burns very fast as shown with Toad Stomach (flame resistant).


That happened of panel , i'm not sure how fast it burned the toad's stomach , *since 90 % of the time amaterasu burns on a slow rate .*
Mokuton has shown the ability to resist madara's katon as well , pretty sure the buddha can hold it's own untill it uses chojo kebutsu , and break sasuke's susanoo .
Also how can itachi can engluf the whole statue anyway ?


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## DayDream (Jul 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Judging by how small the buddha is compared to its original Buddha that Hashirama used, the scale of Zetsu's golem is probably as big as a human ck


I loled so hard on this


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## Icegaze (Jul 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Not sure why Tosuka or Yata aren't mentioned?



Unlikely the sword gets to zetsu who is standing atop Budda 
Yata need not be mentioned since Budda still can't breach susanoo regardless of yata


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## Sapherosth (Jul 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Unlikely the sword gets to zetsu who is standing atop Budda
> Yata need not be mentioned since Budda still can't breach susanoo regardless of yata



The sword can get rid of the buddha..lol.


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## Icegaze (Jul 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> The sword can get rid of the buddha..lol.



How by stabbing it ?
Haven't seen it do that to jutsu though 
it stabbed oro and sealed him

Same to nagato 

It supposed to throw u into s world of dreams

Jutsu don't dream


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## Android (Aug 16, 2016)

Long story short , Chojo Kebutsu one shotts :

- One Buddha arm holds the hand that weilds the Yata .
- Another arm holds the hands that weilds the Totsuka blade .
- The other 98 arms pummels Itachi's susanoo and crushes him .


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 16, 2016)

Itachi one-shots with the Sword of Totsuka, and as Tobi is being sealed away he finally understands what it feels like to shit himself.


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## Android (Aug 16, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Itachi one-shots with the Sword of Totsuka, and as Tobi is being sealed away he finally understands what it feels like to shit himself.


And how exactly will he " one-shot " him ?? 
He can't even reach him on top of the Buddha , and he can't even counter choju Kebutsu ...........


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 16, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> And how exactly will he " one-shot " him ??
> He can't even reach him on top of the Buddha , and he can't even counter choju Kebutsu ...........


 We haven't really seen much from Tobi and his Buddha, and based on what we have seen it's significantly weaker than Hashirama's own. So there's not really much to go on, and if it does attack Itachi and he pierces it with his sword then it gets sealed away pretty easily. After that, Itachi defeats Tobi easily for obvious reasons.


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## Android (Aug 16, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> We haven't really seen much from Tobi and his Buddha


He was taking on and overwhelming the SA and the Gokage for chapters on end .


Isaiah13000 said:


> and based on what we have seen it's significantly weaker than Hashirama's own.




No one said they're comparable , and let's not forget that Itachi's susanoo is a child's play compared to perfect form susanoo as well .


Isaiah13000 said:


> So there's not really much to go on


Before we continue, there is something you need to understand. Spral Zetsu doesn't need to be on Hashirama's level to defeat the likes of Itachi. His Shinsuusenju doesn't need to be on the level of Hashirama's to annihilate Itachi's Susanoo. Beating Susanoo isn't replicating Hashirama's feat, as Hashirama beat Perfect Susanoo, we are talking about a V3 Susanoo from Itachi. Not a PS from Madara. Big difference.


Itachi's Susanoo can't hold back the Gokage along with a bunch of other SA members .


Isaiah13000 said:


> and if it does attack Itachi and he pierces it with his sword then it gets sealed away pretty easily


1 hand holds his Susanoo's arm in place while the rest pound it into oblivion.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Itachi defeats Tobi easily for obvious reasons.


He loses .................................


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## Android (Aug 16, 2016)

@HandfullofNaruto , what do you think ? mind throwing your 2 cents ??


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 16, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> He was taking on and overwhelming the SA and the Gokage for chapters on end.


 When they were all extremely exhausted, so exhausted that Mei couldn't use a single Jutsu, A couldn't use RCM, Onoki could do nothing, and Tsunade could barely stand. 



> No one said they're comparable , and let's not forget that Itachi's susanoo is a child's play compared to perfect form susanoo as well .


 I agree



> Before we continue, there is something you need to understand. Spral Zetsu doesn't need to be on Hashirama's level to defeat the likes of Itachi. His Shinsuusenju doesn't need to be on the level of Hashirama's to annihilate Itachi's Susanoo. Beating Susanoo isn't replicating Hashirama's feat, as Hashirama beat Perfect Susanoo, we are talking about a V3 Susanoo from Itachi. Not a PS from Madara. Big difference.


 I understand that, but the Buddha hasn't done much at all.




> Itachi's Susanoo can't hold back the Gokage along with a bunch of other SA members .


 Look above, and it's not like any of the alliance members were strong or were using any noteworthy Jutsu.



> 1 hand holds his Susanoo's arm in place while the rest pound it into oblivion.
> 
> He loses .................................


 As the hand reaches for him, it gets stabbed, and the whole Buddha gets sealed. It has no speed feats at all, Itachi is easily faster than it is.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 16, 2016)

@cctr9 

I'm not too familiar with Zetsu feats agains Gokage using ShinsuSenju. If Itachi is starting in V4 he has a chance since all he needs to do is avoid the initial onslaught by sealing the giant target in front of him. Zetsu himself is no threat to Itachi, his only chance is overwhelming Susanoo with his ShinsuSenju which is unlikely.

I'll give it to Itachi Mid-High dif since this is the type of immobile target Totsuka can be used on.

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 16, 2016)

Whilr Base Hashirama most certainly could create Bigger and Stronger SS Budha than SZ,it still doesn't make SZ Budha weak enough to be bested by Itachi V3 Susanoo.

Itachi has a shot,but I think in the end SZ will prevail with the Elemental Attacks and Choujo Kebutsu...and who knows what other Tricks the Buddha could have had. SZ was also boosted by Yamato Chakra and his Hashirama DNA.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Android (Aug 16, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> When they were all extremely exhausted, so exhausted that Mei couldn't use a single Jutsu, A couldn't use RCM, Onoki could do nothing, and Tsunade could barely stand.


here
here
As you can see , they all healed , including Tsunade herself , She wasn't exhausted after that, at least not until Spiral Zetsu exhausted her and the rest of her allies.
So yeah, they were at their full power, or very close to it.
The most they were doing was cutting the Shinju's branches, which isn't chakra taxing at all. The only conclusion that makes sense is that Sprial Zetsu is the one who wore them down that much. Nothing else makes sense.


Isaiah13000 said:


> I agree





Isaiah13000 said:


> I understand that, but the Buddha hasn't done much at all.


Its larger than a Bijuu by quite a bit, its much bigger than Itachi's Susanoo, and the longer it punches, the more damage that is added up. So no, it can and it will bust open Susanoo.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Look above, and it's not like any of the alliance members were strong or were using any noteworthy Jutsu.


Feats definitely disagree, and portrayal has him as a foe that Edo Hiruzen, the Gokage, and other Shinobi couldn't defeat. If you wanna go by portrayal, Itachi gets beaten worse than he would if we went by feats.
Gokage , SA, and Hiruzen don't have the means to beat the statue when working together, but Itachi does?


Isaiah13000 said:


> As the hand reaches for him, it gets stabbed, and the whole Buddha gets sealed. It has no speed feats at all, Itachi is easily faster than it is.


What is Itachi's speed feats exactly with Susanoo ?
He only managed to seal immobilized targets , nonthless , if an arm gets pierced , he just discars it and the rest of the 100 arms fodderizes Itachi and his susanoo .
BTW , it's not like Itachi can keep his susanoo for a long time either way , so yeah , he loses ....................

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## Android (Aug 16, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @cctr9
> 
> I'm not too familiar with Zetsu feats agains Gokage using ShinsuSenju. If Itachi is starting in V4 he has a chance since all he needs to do is avoid the initial onslaught by sealing the giant target in front of him. Zetsu himself is no threat to Itachi, his only chance is overwhelming Susanoo with his ShinsuSenju which is unlikely.
> 
> I'll give it to Itachi Mid-High dif since this is the type of immobile target Totsuka can be used on.


I might disagree with a thing or two , but thanks for posting M8

Reactions: Like 2


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## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 16, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I might disagree with a thing or two , but thanks for posting M8


Again through a simple exchange of words two posters on the NBD agree to disagree instead of the usual exchange of ignorance that comes after a disagreement..

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Sapherosth (Aug 16, 2016)

Not sure why this thread came up again, but once again, Yata Mirror and Tosuka sword GG.

All blunt attacks and elemental attacks gets bounced back. Gets stabbed and sealed.


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## Android (Aug 16, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Again through a simple exchange of words two posters on the NBD agree to disagree instead of the usual exchange of ignorance that comes after a disagreement..


Amen to that 
BTW , here comes the calvary , get ready to hear some funny stuff


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 16, 2016)

Ah my favorite shit "Totsuka GG" 

Well at least it is better than "One Finger GG"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Aug 16, 2016)

Any counters to Yata Mirror and Tosuka sword?   Because if not, we can conclude this.


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## Android (Aug 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Any counters to Yata Mirror and Tosuka sword?   Because if not, we can conclude this.


I already posted it .....


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## Sapherosth (Aug 17, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I already posted it .....





Can you give me an explanation of how Yata Mirror and Tosuka sword works? 

I want to see if you actually know what these 2 weapons are and what they do.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 17, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Domestic terrorism
> Domestic terrorism
> As you can see , they all healed , including Tsunade herself , She wasn't exhausted after that, at least not until Spiral Zetsu exhausted her and the rest of her allies.
> So yeah, they were at their full power, or very close to it.
> The most they were doing was cutting the Shinju's branches, which isn't chakra taxing at all. The only conclusion that makes sense is that Sprial Zetsu is the one who wore them down that much. Nothing else makes sense.


 Hmm, you're right. Katsuyu states that Tsunade is fine, as are the other Kage, and later they all lead the charge against the Shinju. After that, when they're confronted by the Buddha one of the shinobi state "It's coming again!" implying they've been fighting it all this time which is why they've been worn down this far. I also forgot that Tobi was controlling Yamato's body and using it to enhance his abilities, and can apparently use the Mokujin according to the Fourth Databook. He should also be able to use all of Yamato's abilities (which are very useful) as well. The distance in this thread is 40 meters, and Itachi's Totsuka blade has never been shown reaching that far. So Tobi could always use Goton at the beginning of the match to force Itachi to defend with Yata Mirror and obscure his LoS, and even though it should be able to negate one of the natures it's never been stated to be able to negate multiple at once so his Susanoo should take some damage. That also leaves him open to being hit with Chojo Kebutsu, which I think can finish him off now. 



> Its larger than a Bijuu by quite a bit, its much bigger than Itachi's Susanoo, and the longer it punches, the more damage that is added up. So no, it can and it will bust open Susanoo.


 That's true.



> Feats definitely disagree, and portrayal has him as a foe that Edo Hiruzen, the Gokage, and other Shinobi couldn't defeat. If you wanna go by portrayal, Itachi gets beaten worse than he would if we went by feats.
> Gokage , SA, and Hiruzen don't have the means to beat the statue when working together, but Itachi does?


 I concede, I agree that he can win now. 



> What is Itachi's speed feats exactly with Susanoo ?
> He only managed to seal immobilized targets , nonthless , if an arm gets pierced , he just discars it and the rest of the 100 arms fodderizes Itachi and his susanoo .
> BTW , it's not like Itachi can keep his susanoo for a long time either way , so yeah , he loses ....................


 I agree that Tobi wins now.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Android (Aug 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I want to see if you actually know what these 2 weapons are and what they do.


I want to know if you actually have an argument instead of keep beating around the bush


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## Sapherosth (Aug 17, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I want to know if you actually have an argument instead of keep beating around the bush



I already gave my argument...lol.

Yata Mirror defends all the attack that the mini buddha can possibly dish out and Tosuka sword stab will seal it.

Here's how it's going to play down.....Mini Buddha punches Itachi's V4 with Yata Mirror with continuous punches > The punches power gets reflected back at the buddha > the buddha's arm/hands gets destroyed and damaged > Tosuka slashes further > Tosuka stab.  GG.

Elemental attacks? Reflected. The Size of the Buddha? Amateratsu burns it down.



Again, I am not actually sure you have any idea how Yata Mirror and Tosuka sword works. Care explaining it to me how it works?


Oh, one last thing, just because the 5 kage and SA doesn't have the means to defeat the mini buddha does not mean Itachi doesn't have it.

Similarly, these guys would struggle insanely against MS Obito yet Itachi alone can do much better against MS Obito and defeat him. It's called Match Ups and suitability.


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## Android (Aug 17, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Hmm, you're right. Katsuyu states that Tsunade is fine, as are the other Kage, and later they all lead the charge against the Shinju. After that, when they're confronted by the Buddha one of the shinobi state "It's coming again!" implying they've been fighting it all this time which is why they've been worn down this far. I also forgot that Tobi was controlling Yamato's body and using it to enhance his abilities, and can apparently use the Mokujin according to the Fourth Databook. He should also be able to use all of Yamato's abilities (which are very useful) as well. The distance in this thread is 40 meters, and Itachi's Totsuka blade has never been shown reaching that far. So Tobi could always use Goton at the beginning of the match to force Itachi to defend with Yata Mirror and obscure his LoS, and even though it should be able to negate one of the natures it's never been stated to be able to negate multiple at once so his Susanoo should take some damage. That also leaves him open to being hit with Chojo Kebutsu, which I think can finish him off now.


Yeah , he's probably a sensor type as well 
I know it just doesn't sound right for Itachi to lose to ......... " zetsu " , but the whole war arc was trash , it can't be helped , feats are feats .


Isaiah13000 said:


> That's true.


   


Isaiah13000 said:


> I concede, I agree that he can win now.





Isaiah13000 said:


> I agree that Tobi wins now.


Nothing but love M8


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 17, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Yeah , he's probably a sensor type as well
> I know it just doesn't sound right for Itachi to lose to ......... " zetsu " , but the whole war arc was trash , it can't be helped , feats are feats .
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah it's kinda ridiculous how out of nowhere a random Zetsu now has superior hype, feats, and overall portrayal to Itachi completely out of nowhere. That's kinda why I felt really reluctant to agree, but you've provided enough evidence that Tobi is a lot stronger lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Aug 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I already gave my argument...lol.


Don't make me laugh please ............


Sapherosth said:


> Yata Mirror defends all the attack that the mini buddha can possibly dish out and Tosuka sword stab will seal it.


Keep fantasizing ...............


Sapherosth said:


> Here's how it's going to play down.....Mini Buddha punches Itachi's V4 with Yata Mirror with continuous punches > The punches power gets reflected back at the buddha > the buddha's arm/hands gets destroyed and damaged > Tosuka slashes further > Tosuka stab. GG.
> 
> Elemental attacks? Reflected. The Size of the Buddha? Amateratsu burns it down.


Anything about the Yata till now is NLF , what is it's best tanking feats ???? 
Kirin ???
Snake headbutt ???
" The way it works " is not an argument , we need feats .
Do you think Yata can tank :
- a super Juubi 4 TBBs ???
- Prime Kurama's TBB ???
- Indra's arrow ???
- How about Kaguya's expansive TSB ??
We need feats man , " the way it works " is not a valid argument .


Sapherosth said:


> Elemental attacks? Reflected. The Size of the Buddha? Amateratsu burns it down.


Again with the Amaterasu BS , face it , it's useless , and :
- It will cost Itachi chakra
- Won't slow down the buddha
- He can't spam it 
- It burns in a very slow rate 
- Using V4 Susanoo and Amaterasu at the same time is a terrible idea 


Sapherosth said:


> Again, I am not actually sure you have any idea how Yata Mirror and Tosuka sword works. Care explaining it to me how it works?


Not gonna bother with this ......................


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## Android (Aug 17, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Yeah it's kinda ridiculous how out of nowhere a random Zetsu now has superior hype, feats, and overall portrayal to Itachi completely out of nowhere. That's kinda why I felt really reluctant to agree, but you've provided enough evidence that Tobi is a lot stronger lol.


Yeah , it's pretty sad how that arc turned out to be .........


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## Sapherosth (Aug 17, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Don't make me laugh please ............
> 
> Keep fantasizing ...............
> 
> ...




Hahahahaa, that's rich coming from you. 

So Yata Mirror can only block a few explosion tags? Since that's probably its best feat shown. 


As for hype? It has THE BEST hype in the manga. By none other than the oldest living person there is and most knowledgeable. At the VERY LEAST, it can block a few blunt attacks that Karin's chains broke through with ease. 

Saying that Yata Mirror can tank all of those GOD TIER techniques is a huge stretch and wouldn't really work here in BD since it lacks the feats. It may have the hype from Rikudou's brother who has witnessed such battles, but we cannot use it regardless. But for you to say that one of the most hyped up items in the manga cannot block a punch from something that Karin's chains destroyed with ease? That's just trolling.


Amateratsu burns slow? Destroyed all of nagato's summons in seconds. Destroyed a fire resistant frog stomach instantly. Burned down the entire forest. What is the Mini Buddha's best defensive feats? Get smashed down by Karin's chains?


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 17, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Yeah , it's pretty sad how that arc turned out to be .........


 Yeah, but it had some good moments and it is what it is. Anyhow, I'd rather not let this thread go off-topic. 



Sapherosth said:


> Hahahahaa, that's rich coming from you.
> 
> So Yata Mirror can only block a few explosion tags? Since that's probably its best feat shown.
> 
> ...


 Black Zetsu didn't know what a Susanoo was so the hype is deemed ambiguous, that was before the retcon, and it has next to no notable feats. Also, what Karin did doesn't downplay the Buddha rather that indicates how incredibly powerful the Uzumaki Clan's chakra chains are. Kushina herself did easily restrain a complete Kurama when she was on her deathbed, so they're pretty damn powerful.



> Saying that Yata Mirror can tank all of those GOD TIER techniques is a huge stretch and wouldn't really work here in BD since it lacks the feats. It may have the hype from Rikudou's brother who has witnessed such battles, but we cannot use it regardless. But for you to say that one of the most hyped up items in the manga cannot block a punch from something that Karin's chains destroyed with ease? That's just trolling.


 Based on what Karin and Kushina's chains have both done, especially the latter, they're stronger than Itachi's Susanoo and could destroy it without much of a problem. 




> Amateratsu burns slow? Destroyed all of nagato's summons in seconds. Destroyed a fire resistant frog stomach instantly. Burned down the entire forest. What is the Mini Buddha's best defensive feats? Get smashed down by Karin's chains?


 Err no, it caused their bodies to poof due to the damage they sustained. It destroyed part of the frog's stomach, not the whole thing, and it didn't burn down that entire forest either it was still burning when Naruto and the others got there afterwards.


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## Karyu Endan (Aug 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Considering how Karin's chains....KARIN OF ALL PEOPLE.....were able to contend with



Karin's top tier at _*everything she tries.*_ _Healing?_ Top five on the planet. _Sensing?_ Best in the world second _only_ to Six Paths Sage Mode, and none of the practitioners have the precision to detect lies. _Getting sac'd by Sasuke?_ No one else can claim anything close to the number he pulled on her to reach Danzo. The only area she's an evident failure in is _getting into Sasuke's pants_, and even then she arguably has the silver medal. 

Were you really so shocked that, when it came time for Karin to become an actual combatant, she'd dominate _that area_ too?

Karin accomplishing something Edo Hiruzen couldn't just means that EoS Karin is a tier above Edo Hiruzen. As it _*should*_ be; _new generation surpasses the old_, mothafuckas! 

In all seriousness, we have no way of knowing whether or not Yata can reflect Mokuton. Black Zetsu said it could reflect all five elements, but that in no way implies that it can reflect _elemental combinations_ along with it. Even those that can use Earth and Water can't use Wood without Hashirama's DNA; why should an exception suddenly be made for Itachi or even a weapon of his? On top of that, we know that Kirin destroys Itachi's Susano'o, Yata Mirror included (he formed Susano'o to tank Kirin and then used it again in rapid succession), so it's clear that there's a limit on the power of the techniques the mirror can reflect. It can't reflect Kirin, so anything around its level of power or stronger can't be reflected either, regardless of elemental affinity.

With both of those things in mind, I don't think we can just say "Yata Mirror counters everything" and call it a match. Heck, even if Itachi manages to Totsuka the Golem, Zetsu can easily use Mayfly to go underground and bury him alive from below Kakashi-Style while he's busy sealing away the Golem, but _not stopping at the head._ Itachi suffocates and dies from asphyxiation in that scenario.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Android (Aug 17, 2016)

The struggle arguments being made in favore for the losing team/individual are always amusing to read . Mainly because they are .........................well , struggle arguments 


Sapherosth said:


> Hahahahaa, that's rich coming from you.


Thank you sir 


Sapherosth said:


> So Yata Mirror can only block a few explosion tags? Since that's probably its best feat shown.


Now you're getting it ................


Sapherosth said:


> As for hype? It has THE BEST hype in the manga.


So does Part 01 Hiruzen 


Sapherosth said:


> By none other than the oldest living person there is and most knowledgeable.


The guy didn't even know what susanoo is despite  :
- Being there during Hashirama vs Madara
- Indra vs Ashura


Sapherosth said:


> it can block a few blunt attacks that Karin's chains broke through with ease.


And how is that a proof of the Buddha being weak rather than the Chains being strong ??? 
Uzumaki chains are known for their power , Kushina was able to subdue prime Kurama with her chains while being very exhausted
The same Kurama that can :
- Destroy Hashirama's dragon with just moving
- Creat Tsuname with his tails
- Destroy mountains with a single blow of his arm
- Destroy a village with a single shockwave
Now , is Kurama weak because he was subdue by the chains , or are the chains strong for holding down a beast like Kurama ???????????


Sapherosth said:


> since it lacks the feats





Sapherosth said:


> It may have the hype from Rikudou's brother


Your making a big deal of the rikudou brother
The rikudou brother <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< the rikudou by the way 


Sapherosth said:


> but we cannot use it regardless. But for you to say that one of the most hyped up items in the manga cannot block a punch from something that Karin's chains


Already countered this 


Sapherosth said:


> That's just trolling.


The irony 


Sapherosth said:


> Amateratsu burns slow


Yep


Sapherosth said:


> Destroyed all of nagato's summons in seconds.


It did jack to Karin's skin 


Sapherosth said:


> Destroyed a fire resistant frog stomach instantly.


99 % Of the time it burns very slow , but i'll give you this one 


Sapherosth said:


> Burned down the entire forest.


Even basic B-rank Katon can burn forests

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## Sapherosth (Aug 17, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Yeah, but it had some good moments and it is what it is. Anyhow, I'd rather not let this thread go off-topic.
> 
> Black Zetsu didn't know what a Susanoo was so the hype is deemed ambiguous, that was before the retcon, and it has next to no notable feats. Also, what Karin did doesn't downplay the Buddha rather that indicates how incredibly powerful the Uzumaki Clan's chakra chains are. Kushina herself did easily restrain a complete Kurama when she was on her deathbed, so they're pretty damn powerful.
> 
> ...




Getting ahead of yourself there...

There's absolutely zero chance that Kishi would retcon something as big as making Zetsu change from Madara's will to Kaguya's son. The dude planned out Obito and the masked man way back at the start of Part 2. 

Part 1 through to part 2 can be retconed that's fair enough, but Mid part 2 and war arc? bullshit. Especially not something that big.


Let's be logical and look at this from the author's perspective here.....If Kishimoto started having zetsu saying stuff like, oh, that's Susano, I've seen it before, we would have automatically assumed who this black zetsu is and how he came to know these stuff. We would automatically assume that he's been around for much longer and create much more questions than answers at the time. Plus it wouldn't be exciting writing. 


Common sense goes a long way.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Getting ahead of yourself there...
> 
> There's absolutely zero chance that Kishi would retcon something as big as making Zetsu change from Madara's will to Kaguya's son. The dude planned out Obito and the masked man way back at the start of Part 2.
> 
> ...


 Err what? Are you really *seriously* implying that Kishimoto had the whole Kaguya bullshit planned out since the Itachi Pursuit Arc? Are you trolling right now? It's is obvious as hell that Kishi took a laxative and started pulling as much shit out of his ass as possible near the ending of the series. He was retconning things that were said in the last arc only a few chapters later in the same arc, the dude was rushing his series to end as quickly as possible and was fucking up his own series' timeline to an exceptional extent.  Come on, you simply don't want to admit that Kishi didn't have that shit planned because it'd denounce your argument.


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## Sapherosth (Aug 17, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Err what? Are you really *seriously* implying that Kishimoto had the whole Kaguya bullshit planned out since the Itachi Pursuit Arc? Are you trolling right now? It's is obvious as hell that Kishi took a laxative and started pulling as much shit out of his ass as possible near the ending of the series. He was retconning things that were said in the last arc only a few chapters later in the same arc, the dude was rushing his series to end as quickly as possible and was fucking up his own series' timeline to an exceptional extent.  Come on, you simply don't want to admit that Kishi didn't have that shit planned because it'd denounce your argument.




Yeah, quite funny how Kishi had planned for Itachi to be a good guy since Part 1, right?

Or how Kishi planned for Tobi to be Obito since the start of part 2?

Or how Kishi planned for Kabuto to take over Orochimaru's cells/power since the start of part 2?

That's some shit planning by Kishi, according to you, right?


It's quite obvious that Kishi has got the VAST majority of his plot laid out. The only things that may be retconed is minor stuff that he just forgot or it isn't important. But saying Black zetsu is a retcon? No way.

Black zetsu is literally the person responsible for all the shit that's happened in the Narutoverse. With a mission to revive his mother. 

According to your logic, Hagoromo's brother must be a retcon as well, since he wasn't mentioned at all until the last arc. 

The things that are confirmed retcons are Part 1 Hiruzen's hype which was completely shat on over and over again.


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## Android (Aug 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Hagoromo's brother must be a retcon as well, since he wasn't mentioned at all until the last arc.


You mean Hamura ??? Yes he is 
Hamura was never " thought of " until the last moments , to make this Hagoromo/Hamura -- Naruto/Sasuke Paralles .
The uchiha stone tablet (according to madara's words) doesn't even mention him , ot that he did half the jobe of sealing Kaguya , with Hagoromo . It's abvious that Kishi created him later , because , you know he likes parallels ............


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## Sapherosth (Aug 17, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> You mean Hamura ??? Yes he is
> Hamura was never " thought of " until the last moments , to make this Hagoromo/Hamura -- Naruto/Sasuke Paralles .
> The uchiha stone tablet (according to madara's words) doesn't even mention him , ot that he did half the jobe of sealing Kaguya , with Hagoromo . It's abvious that Kishi created him later , because , you know he likes parallels ............




The Uchiha stone tablet was retconed by Black zetsu as well?


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 17, 2016)

Amaterasu does shit to the Buddha,unlike Nagato Summons it is not a living creature so it doesn't feel pain or something like that and SZ could probably just separate the Burning Part from the Buddha with Mokuton! 

So Ama taking down the SS is just ridiculous!


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## hbcaptain (Aug 17, 2016)

Itachi wins using Totsuka.


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## Android (Aug 17, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> SZ could probably just separate the Burning Part from the Buddha with Mokuton!


Mokuton can absorb chakra as well

Reactions: Like 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 17, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Mokuton can absorb chakra as well


Good Point there!  So Ama is just out of the Picture here!

Hmm isnt Tottsuka a Chakra Blade  But still cant SZ separate the Part ITachi stabbed,after al lthe Sealing doesn happen in an istant!?


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## hbcaptain (Aug 17, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Good Point there!  So Ama is just out of the Picture here!
> 
> Hmm isnt Tottsuka a Chakra Blade  But still cant SZ separate the Part ITachi stabbed,after al lthe Sealing doesn happen in an istant!?


Absorbing techniques can't absorb Susano'o chakra tought.


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## Android (Aug 17, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Good Point there!  So Ama is just out of the Picture here!


It always has 


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Hmm isnt Tottsuka a Chakra Blade  But still cant SZ separate the Part ITachi stabbed,after al lthe Sealing doesn happen in an istant!?


I don't think it can absorb the Totsuka blade  , but it doesn't matter anyway , there's nothing to suggest it would be a threat to the Shinsuusenju anyway


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## Sapherosth (Aug 17, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Amaterasu does shit to the Buddha,unlike Nagato Summons it is not a living creature so it doesn't feel pain or something like that and SZ could probably just separate the Burning Part from the Buddha with Mokuton!
> 
> So Ama taking down the SS is just ridiculous!



Mokuton hasn't shown the same flexibility like the V1 Bijuu cloak, so no, it can't just throw it out like some chakra. It's also not the same as the Juubi's body who can remove chunks of itself. It's going to have to extend the burning portion of itself and then cut it off. If the burning parts are large enough, this method will require a lot of effort and create an opening. Amateratsu is not mean to be used as a finishing move in this scenario, but as a diversion to land the finishing blow with Tosuka.



cctr9 said:


> Mokuton can absorb chakra as well



Which Mokuton? I only remember the wood dragon adsorbing chakra.




Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Good Point there!  So Ama is just out of the Picture here!
> 
> Hmm isnt Tottsuka a Chakra Blade  But still cant SZ separate the Part ITachi stabbed,after al lthe Sealing doesn happen in an istant!?



They cannot do anything once stabbed. If they could, Oro would have used oral rebirth and Nagato would have used shinra tensei or whatever he can to escape. It also doesn't seem like the user can stop it either, since when Nagato regained consciousness, Itachi didn't stop it and take Nagato as an ally.


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## Karyu Endan (Aug 17, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> You mean Hamura ??? Yes he is
> Hamura was never " thought of " until the last moments , to make this Hagoromo/Hamura -- Naruto/Sasuke Paralles .
> The uchiha stone tablet (according to madara's words) doesn't even mention him , ot that he did half the jobe of sealing Kaguya , with Hagoromo . It's abvious that Kishi created him later , because , you know he likes parallels ............



While I _*do*_ think Hamura was a last-minute revision to tie the manga into _The Last_ (which had already been written by that point), and could easily be removed from the manga proper with very little lost, there _is_ a valid in-universe explanation as to why the tablet doesn't mention him.

Short Version: Black Zetsu altered it.


*Spoiler*: _off-topic and long_ 



Long Version: Hagaromo likely intended to include how he and his brother worked together to defeat Kaguya and then the Juubi (ignorant of them being one and the same) as part of his message to Indra about why he should co-operate with _his_ brother for peace rather than try to force it to happen all by himself. But Black Zetsu would have none of that and wrote Hamura out of the story to better sell the idea that Indra could indeed prove that solitary power was the better path. After all, if Hagaromo could defeat even the Ten Tailed Beast and usher a new era of peace _singlehandedly_, then certainly a man with both halves of Hagaromo's power could do the same, _*right?*_ 

And I _*do*_ think Kishimoto plotted this revelation in advance, namely the one about Black Zetsu being Kaguya's will and not Madara's, on top of Hagaromo's tablet for Indra being altered. The reason I think this is because, ever since it was revealed Hagaromo left the tablet for Indra in the Five Kage Summit arc, there was a huge contradiction. Everything we learned about Hagaromo showed him to be a man that loved peace and dedicated his entire being to it. He even gave the Tailed Beasts free will believing they could co-exist with humans in harmony. And yet his message to Indra on the tablet convinced his eldest son to _go to war_ with Asura? And over the centuries convinced the Uchiha to kill _their_ brothers and closest friends? That shit just doesn't add up. There were really only two ways of solving that contradiction:

A: Hagaromo was actually evil and the stories about him turned him into an undeserved hero.

B: What Hagaromo _wrote_ for Indra isn't what Indra ended up _reading.
_
As the story went on, A became less and less likely with the Tailed Beasts remembering him fondly and his appearance in Naruto's inner world, and certainly enough, turns out the contradiction was settled with B. Now given the presence of the contradiction as far back as the Five Kage Summit arc (the tablet was around since VOTE and Rikudo Sennin had been mentioned since Jiraiya vs. Pain, but there was no connection between them until then), Kishi must have had an answer for said contradiction in mind; namely, what we got.

Who would bother doing this though? Well, whoever did it would be whoever would benefit from giving Indra and the Uchiha clan that _schmuck bait_ regarding the Ten Tails. So the Ten Tails _itself_, or someone _working for it_. But the Ten Tails doesn't have a mind of its own, as stated by Obito when the Juubi was first mentioned... Or maybe that's just what the mastermind _wants you to think_. 

So the Juubi has a malevolent intelligence that wants to be brought back to the height of its power, and is manipulating the Uchiha to do so... but who does this intelligence belong to? Well... you could guess something similar to Kaguya, actually, and it involves solving another contradiction:

Kimimaro.

Orochimaru wanted Kimimaro's body. He wanted it _*bad*_. He wouldn't have _bothered_ with Sasuke if this young man didn't fall to the _Plot Reaper_ (and Itachi didn't stomp him). But _why?_ What does Orochimaru gain by assimilating Kimimaro? At first it's just because he's extraordinarily powerful, but as the series goes on that reasoning isn't good enough by itself; all of Orochimaru's biggest experiments were related to Rikudo Sennin. He sought out Sasuke and Itachi's bodies for their Sharingan; descendants of Hagaromo's older son. He put Hashirama's DNA into infants hoping to replicate Wood Style; descendants of Hagaromo's younger son. He even recruited and experimented on Karin, who happens to be among the _other_ descendants of Hagaromo's younger son, and used Danzo to see how Senju and Uchiha powers could _combine_. Even the _Curse Mark_ is related to Rikudo _Sennin_, since it's an off-shoot of _Sennin_ Mode. And on top of that, Orochimaru joined Akatsuki and had an interest in Naruto afterwards, who were after and contain Bijuu respectively... and Hagaromo _created_ the Bijuu. Clearly Orochimaru's "_Truth of Ninjutsu_" that he wanted to find involved the "_Truth of the Sage of the Six Paths_".

So what's up with Kimimaro? _He_ has no link to Haga- wait a minute. His full name is Kimimaro _Kaguya_. _Kaguya_ just so happens to be the name of Hagaromo's mother. And the _Kaguya_ Clan were mostly Ax-Crazy, even more than the Uchiha, having went _nearly extinct_ through their own incessant blood lust. No... It couldn't be. Could it? The Kaguya Clan _worshiped Kaguya like a goddess_, emulating _her own chaotic Ten Tails behaviour_, and Kimimaro is a _direct descendant of her? _Now it all makes sense! _*EUREKA!
*_
At any rate, I think that in the original draft of the story Team Seven _beat_ Madara and Black Zetsu hijacked him just after he _lost_. But Madara got too stronk and Kishi wrote himself into a corner, ultimately deciding to have Black Zetsu hijack Madara right after he _won_. Probably around the time he got Rinne Tensei'd. That's when Kishi stopped giving a shit about keeping Madara's power consistent with the story and let him break rules left, right, and centre just to get him to initiate IT as fast as possible and promptly get shafted, only slowing down to emphasize Obito's Heel Face Turn and Guy opening the Eighth Gate (it also likely allowed Guy to survive; him dying to stall an opponent that Naruto and Sasuke would lose to _anyway_ probably seemed like too much of a downer for Kishi).


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Yeah, quite funny how Kishi had planned for Itachi to be a good guy since Part 1, right?
> 
> Or how Kishi planned for Tobi to be Obito since the start of part 2?
> 
> ...


  Unlike the Black Zetsu retcon, all of those things were foreshadowed way ahead of time. We quite literally saw Madara create Black Zetsu and saw how he was made, then Kishimoto turns around and says he is the will of an alien goddess who wasn't even mentioned until the last 30 - 40 chapters of the series. You've got to be joking if you think those examples are even remotely comparable to the Kaguya asspull whatsoever.




> It's quite obvious that Kishi has got the VAST majority of his plot laid out. The only things that may be retconed is minor stuff that he just forgot or it isn't important. But saying Black zetsu is a retcon? No way.


 You mean how he tells us that White Zetsu are artificial Hashirama clones for the majority of the series, and then turns around to say they're humans from Kaguya's Infinite Tsukuyomi? Or that Hagoromo single-handedly defeated the Juubi, sealed it's entirety in himself, and made the moon on his deathbed? Only to survive it's extraction due to the Gedo Mazou? Then to turn around and tell us Hagoromo had a brother and together they defeated and sealed the Juubi's chakra in Hagoromo and sealed it's body in the Moon while they were still young, and long before Hagoromo's deathbed? All in the same arc only a few chapters away from each other shortly after Kurama, someone who actually knew and lived during Hagoromo's time, told us he survived due to the Mazou? Which couldn't possibly be inside him when he was old since he sealed it away when he was young? If that isn't a major retcon and bad writing then I don't know what is.



> Black zetsu is literally the person responsible for all the shit that's happened in the Narutoverse. With a mission to revive his mother.
> 
> According to your logic, Hagoromo's brother must be a retcon as well, since he wasn't mentioned at all until the last arc.
> 
> The things that are confirmed retcons are Part 1 Hiruzen's hype which was completely shat on over and over again.


 Which is not only ridiculous, but wasn't even remotely foreshadowed whatsoever before it happened completely out of nowhere. Hamura Otsutsuki was indeed made up and created at the very last second along with the rest of the Otsutsuki to further the older and younger brother parallel. Even though I actually do find him interesting, I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like all of the shit involving Kaguya and her clan wasn't made up by Kishimoto.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Aug 17, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Unlike the Black Zetsu retcon, all of those things were foreshadowed way ahead of time. We quite literally saw Madara create Black Zetsu and saw how he was made, then Kishimoto turns around and says he is the will of an alien goddess who wasn't even mentioned until the last 30 - 40 chapters of the series. You've got to be joking if you think those examples are even remotely comparable to the Kaguya asspull whatsoever.
> 
> 
> *You mean how he tells us that White Zetsu are artificial Hashirama clones for the majority of the series, and then turns around to say they're humans from Kaguya's Infinite Tsukuyomi? *Or that Hagoromo single-handedly defeated the Juubi, sealed it's entirety in himself, and made the moon on his deathbed? Only to survive it's extraction due to the Gedo Mazou? Then to turn around and tell us Hagoromo had a brother and together they defeated and sealed the Juubi's chakra in Hagoromo and sealed it's body in the Moon while they were still young, and long before Hagoromo's deathbed? All in the same arc only a few chapters away from each other shortly after Kurama, someone who actually knew and lived during Hagoromo's time, told us he survived due to the Mazou? Which couldn't possibly be inside him when he was old since he sealed it away when he was young? If that isn't a major retcon and bad writing then I don't know what is.
> ...




You mean the person telling us about white zetsu didn't know that these were Humans from the previous Mugen Tsukuyomi. Obito simply learnt/regurgitated what Madara told him, which in turn regurgitated what Black Zetsu lied to him via Uchiha Stone tablet which he tampered with after Hagoromo created it. 

Such simple logic. It's hilarious to say that Kishimoto was just winging it with this Manga without any plan. Do you even know how hard these Japanesemangaka's/editors work?  They're not just some average high school student winging it through a semester.


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## uchihakil (Aug 18, 2016)

Itachi takes this, mid high diff atmost
- itachi sets Spiral yamato ablaze with ama (the sharingan user has better vision so he can lit SY while he being on the buddha)
- genjutsu is out of the question since SY is on the buddha which would be long range, unless itachi sneaks up on him and gets close with a clone to land tsukiyomi
- the 5 elemental attacks gets tanked by yata
- totsuka can seal the statue.

All in all, spiral yamato gets defeated, the kages were exhausted, ohnoki could'nt even use jinton, raikage could'nt use his raiton armour, mei did'nt use any technique, meaning she was drained,gaara was'nt there and shikamaru even said their only option is hiruzen, I'm pretty sure itachi can mop the floor with those exhausted kages


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 18, 2016)

Itachi oneshots with genjutsu.



Hussain said:


> Where was it stated that they are "too weak" exactly?



No one needs to state it. We all have common sense.

When we saw Madara dispatch 3 or 4 of Shodai's clones while taking a nap, no one was surprised one bit because we all know clones are fodder and weak.
He has a point. The fact that Mei held them off for a while means that they were too damn weak. Because Madara with an inferior version of Susano'O was putting more pressure on 5 kage than 5 clones were putting on one kage.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 18, 2016)

Clones may look Fodders to Madara,but remember those same Mokubunshins were fending off Juubi Splits while most SA had issues with them and those Moku Bunshins were Base no SM,and also keep in mind then unlike KB the power of the MB depends on how much the Original is concentrated on them and how much Chakra he is giving them.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 18, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Clones may look Fodders to Madara,but remember those same Mokubunshins were fending off Juubi Splits while most SA had issues with them and those Moku Bunshins were Base no SM,and also keep in mind then unlike KB the power of the MB depends on how much the Original is concentrated on them and how much Chakra he is giving them.



Madara was taking a nap dude. Its not like he used anything significant or broke a sweat to defeat them.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Madara was taking a nap dude. Its not like he used anything significant or broke a sweat to defeat them.


Yup,because Hashirama was concentrated way more on Sustainng and Feeding Chakra to the Barrier and Support the SA with his Clones there,and when Madara killed his one Clone he even said Hashirama as concentrating too much on the Barrier and said he will just wait for the Original thats all!


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 18, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Yup,because Hashirama was concentrated way more on Sustainng and Feeding Chakra to the Barrier and Support the SA with his Clones there,and when Madara killed his one Clone he even said Hashirama as concentrating too much on the Barrier and said he will just wait for the Original thats all!



Are you trying to miss the point on purpose or just trolling ? 
The point is that clones are fodder and weak. Manga has made it clear over and over again, so no one needs to state that Madara's clones were fodder and weak because it is a known fact at this point.

Ok ?


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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Amaterasu does shit to the Buddha,unlike Nagato Summons it is not a living creature so it doesn't feel pain or something like that and SZ could probably just separate the Burning Part from the Buddha with Mokuton!
> 
> So Ama taking down the SS is just ridiculous!


Amaterasu taken ANYONE down is ridiculous.


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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Are you trying to miss the point on purpose or just trolling ?
> The point is that clones are fodder and weak. Manga has made it clear over and over again, so no one needs to state that Madara's clones were fodder and weak because it is a known fact at this point.
> 
> Ok ?



Manga has made it clear that Hashirama focusing most of his power to his original body will have fodder clones. Not that clones in general are fodder. Dafuq are you on about?

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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 18, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Manga has made it clear that Hashirama focusing most of his power to his original body will have fodder clones. Not that clones in general are fodder. Dafuq are you on about?



The only difference if Hashirama wasn't focusing too much of his power would be that the clones would be fun to play with. And Madara would probably need to get off his ass to dispatch them.  Link removed

Its pretty obvious that Gokage were having a tough time against 1 Madara, and then each of them were individually capable of handling 5 Madara's to some extend. Either the gokage got insanely stronger for no reason, or those clones aren't individual representetives of Madara.

You can go down the denial road all you like, but the manga made it clear that clones are fodder when used in masses.


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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The only difference if Hashirama wasn't focusing too much of his power would be that the clones would be fun to play with. And Madara would probably need to get off his ass to dispatch them.  Link removed
> 
> Its pretty obvious that Gokage were having a tough time against 1 Madara, and then each of them were individually capable of handling 5 Madara's to some extend. Either the gokage got insanely stronger for no reason, or those clones aren't individual representetives of Madara.
> 
> You can go down the denial road all you like, but the manga made it clear that clones are fodder when used in masses.



What you are saying makes no sense. Madaras clones not being equal to him doesnt make them fodder.  Madara being able to beat Hashirama's clones doesnt make them fodder.

The only one in denial here is you. The Gokage werent even "handling" anything. They were losing until Onoki and Tsunade busted out that Super Jinton.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You mean the person telling us about white zetsu didn't know that these were Humans from the previous Mugen Tsukuyomi. Obito simply learnt/regurgitated what Madara told him, which in turn regurgitated what Black Zetsu lied to him via Uchiha Stone tablet which he tampered with after Hagoromo created it.
> 
> Such simple logic. It's hilarious to say that Kishimoto was just winging it with this Manga without any plan. Do you even know how hard these Japanesemangaka's/editors work?  They're not just some average high school student winging it through a semester.


 I'm well aware of that, but Kishimoto has already retconned things numerous times throughout his own series. My point is, there's no proof that Itachi's Susanoo is truly "invincible" with the Sword of Totsuka and Yata Mirror. It's ridiculous to even think it is, it immediately lost it's already ambiguous hype afterwards and was nigh-featless to begin with. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi oneshots with genjutsu.


 Tobi doesn't even have any eyes, let alone a brain, so Sharingan: Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi are completely ruled out.


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## Android (Aug 18, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Tobi doesn't even have any eyes, let alone a brain, so Sharingan: Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi are completely ruled out.


He was effected by MT IIRC , but you could argue you only need to be exposed for it's light to fall for it .
Doesn't matter tho , Itachi loses


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 18, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> He was effected by MT IIRC , but you could argue you only need to be exposed for it's light to fall for it .
> Doesn't matter tho , Itachi loses


 Nah, Tobi released Yamato from his body so that Yamato would be ensnared by it. He even said now that it was initiated, he wouldn't be needing Yamato's body anymore. But yeah he wins regardless.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 18, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> What you are saying makes no sense.


It actually does, maybe you have to read it more than once.



> Madaras clones not being equal to him doesnt make them fodder.


That wasn't my argument. I used that example to prove that the clones are weaker than him, which Hussain's argument was that they weren't.



> Madara being able to beat Hashirama's clones doesnt make them fodder.


Madara being able to effortlessly dispatch them off panel makes them fodder. 
Do you even know the definition of fodder ? 


> The only one in denial here is you. The Gokage werent even "handling" anything. They were losing until Onoki and Tsunade busted out that Super Jinton.


I said that they were "handling to some extend." 
And compared to the amount of trouble they were having against Madara as a unit, it actually is a big difference that they were able to hold their own against 5 higher level(Madara was always using inferior versions of Susano'O up until that point) Susano'O clones individually.

Anyways, like I said, the point is to prove that the clones were weaker than the original. I guess you would agree on that.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Tobi doesn't even have any eyes, let alone a brain, so Sharingan: Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi are completely ruled out.



How does he see then ? Or think ? No, sharingan genjutsu or Tsukiyomi aren't ruled out. Infact they still oneshot, just as Amaterasu would or Totsuka. 

Tobi was easily blindsided by Suigetsu when he was dealing with Karin. 
Itachi dismantles him without much difficulty.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How does he see then ? Or think ? No, sharingan genjutsu or Tsukiyomi aren't ruled out. Infact they still oneshot, just as Amaterasu would or Totsuka.


 Genjutsu was explicitly stated to work by affecting the chakra in the brain, he has no brain, so Genjutsu will do nothing. He is a magical artificial human who doesn't even need any food or water nor have normal human bodily functions, so he's simply a rare exception. Itachi has never used Amaterasu on a target that is 40 meters away and it requires a charge period, he'll be attacked and have his LoS covered before he even gets a chance to use it. The Sword of Totsuka has never reached that far either, and he'll have his LoS blocked by Tobi's Goton and then get demolished by his Chojo Kebutsu.



> Tobi was easily blindsided by Suigetsu when he was dealing with Karin.
> Itachi dismantles him without much difficulty.


  He was depicted as being able to trash thousands of shinobi all enhanced by Yin-Yang Kurama's strongest chakra cloak as well as overwhelm four out of the five Kage with the only one being able to stand up to him being Edo Hiruzen. Even then, Hiruzen didn't defeat him, Karin defeated his Buddha with the Uzumaki Clan's powerful chakra chains and even after Suigetsu, Jugo, and Orochimaru's combined assault he was fine afterwards and proceeded to continue combating them all until IT initiated. It is indeed quite stupid that Tobi is suddenly stronger than Itachi, but he was clearly depicted that way in the War Arc.


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## Android (Aug 18, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Itachi has never used Amaterasu on a target that is 40 meters away


Amaterasu's range isn't even that far , and pretty sure zetsu is a sensor type as well , and mokuton can absorb chakra/ninjutsu as well .
As for the sharingan genjutsu , pretty sure he knows about it , from his encounters with Madara and Obito .


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## Sapherosth (Aug 19, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Amaterasu's range isn't even that far , and pretty sure zetsu is a sensor type as well , and mokuton can absorb chakra/ninjutsu as well .
> As for the sharingan genjutsu , pretty sure he knows about it , from his encounters with Madara and Obito .




Yeah, that's how Zetsu was able to avoid a much slower Orochimaru steaking up to his back and bite his neck. So much for being a "sensor".

Only specialised Mokuton techniques can absorb nin/chakra, not just any mokuton.


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## Android (Aug 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Yeah, that's how Zetsu was able to avoid a much slower Orochimaru steaking up to his back and bite his neck. So much for being a "sensor".


Aren't you the same cat who said sensors can still be caught off guard ???
Well , there you go , sensors can still be caught off guard .


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## Sapherosth (Aug 19, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Aren't you the same cat who said sensors can still be caught off guard ???
> Well , there you go , sensors can still be caught off guard .



Exactly, so Zetsu isn't dodging Amateratsu just because he's a "lol sensor".


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## Android (Aug 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Exactly, so Zetsu isn't dodging Amateratsu just because he's a "lol sensor".


 
Zetsu will not even be hit with shittyratsu , because he's on top of his Buddha .


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## Sapherosth (Aug 19, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Zetsu will not even be hit with shittyratsu , because he's on top of his Buddha .







Looks about the same size as Oro's yamata technique


Karin jumped up to it quite easily.

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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 19, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Genjutsu was explicitly stated to work by affecting the chakra in the brain, he has no brain, so Genjutsu will do nothing. He is a magical artificial human who doesn't even need any food or water nor have normal human bodily functions, so he's simply a rare exception.


He can see, that means he has an organ that picks up visual cues. He can think, that means he has an organ/mechanism that allows him to do the things  that brain allows us to do. He can use jutsu, that means he has an operating chakra network.
Point is, he has mechanisms that replace conventional eyes and brain. He is susceptible to genjutsu.




> Itachi has never used Amaterasu on a target that is 40 meters away



He can reduce that distance to 10 meters in the blink of an eye. Considering Karin was able to do it.
Which is enough distance to use Amaterasu from : Link removed



> and it requires a charge period, he'll be attacked and have his LoS covered before he even gets a chance to use it.


Itachi can defend his own for a second or two during the charge time. Tobi is not fast, neither is buddha.


> The Sword of Totsuka has never reached that far either, and he'll have his LoS blocked by Tobi's Goton and then get demolished by his Chojo Kebutsu.


Totsuka is also around 10-20 meter range : Link removed
Its also ironic that you mention LOS, and when you click on the scan I just posted, you'll see that it is a nonfactor here. It may even benefit Itachi more as he has excellent feats he performed without relying on his vision. Both times he oneshot someone with Totsuka, he wasn't using his eyes.

Also nothing Tobi can throw at Itachi has any means of harming him through Susano'O.



> He was depicted as being able to trash thousands of shinobi all enhanced by Yin-Yang Kurama's strongest chakra cloak as well as overwhelm four out of the five Kage with the only one being able to stand up to him being Edo Hiruzen. Even then, Hiruzen didn't defeat him,


Which is all irrelevant because he got blindsided by Suigetsu : Link removed
And his only distraction was Karin at that point.



> Karin defeated his Buddha with the Uzumaki Clan's powerful chakra chains and even after Suigetsu, Jugo, and Orochimaru's combined assault he was fine afterwards and proceeded to continue combating them all until IT initiated.



Which is also irrelevant because neither of the things Suigetsu or Orochimaru can hit Tobi with can be compared to the things Itachi can hit him with.
Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu and Totsuka are all oneshot kills in this case.



> but he was clearly depicted that way in the War Arc.


No. You are just embarassing yourself at this point.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 19, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He can see, that means he has an organ that picks up visual cues. He can think, that means he has an organ/mechanism that allows him to do the things  that brain allows us to do. He can use jutsu, that means he has an operating chakra network.
> Point is, he has mechanisms that replace conventional eyes and brain. He is susceptible to genjutsu.


 He quite literally doesn't, he doesn't have any organs whatsoever so I don't know what you're on about. There is no argument to be made here, he was never shown being susceptible to Genjutsu and lacks a brain which is what is required to initiate it. So Sharingan: Genjutsu, it's derivatives, and Tsukuyomi won't work. It's that simple. 




> He can reduce that distance to 10 meters in the blink of an eye. Considering Karin was able to do it.
> Which is enough distance to use Amaterasu from : Link removed


 First off, how Karin approached the statue was off-panel and she already started off very close to it. It's pretty likely that Tobi wasn't paying attention to her whatsoever when she attacked it with her chains. So you can't use Karin as a reason for why Itachi can suddenly do it, that's flawed logic. He can't reduce that distance so quickly, because if he deactivates Susanoo and tries to Shunshin to the Buddha he'll run into it's Goton and get annihilated.



> Itachi can defend his own for a second or two during the charge time. Tobi is not fast, neither is buddha.


 The Buddha's Goton has a large AoE, Itachi will get smothered by it and have his LoS blocked which leaves him open to being hit with Chojo Kebutsu.



> Totsuka is also around 10-20 meter range : Link removed
> Its also ironic that you mention LOS, and when you click on the scan I just posted, you'll see that it is a nonfactor here. It may even benefit Itachi more as he has excellent feats he performed without relying on his vision. Both times he oneshot someone with Totsuka, he wasn't using his eyes.


 Both times he one-shot someone with Totsuka, they were heavily disadvantaged. Orochimaru was a large stationary target who didn't know he had the Totsuka in his inventory, and Nagato was immobile, blinded by the dust cloud that was created, and had his sensing deactivated. So the events revolving around him one-shotting people with it were already heavily in his favor.



> Also nothing Tobi can throw at Itachi has any means of harming him through Susano'O.


 Chojo Kebutsu would destroy it, and the rest of Tobi's arsenal would keep Itachi at bay by manipulating the terrain with Yamato's Doton and using the Goton I mentioned before.




> Which is all irrelevant because he got blindsided by Suigetsu : Link removed
> And his only distraction was Karin at that point.


 It's not irrelevant at all, it signifies how powerful he is. Karin was an incredible distraction due to attacking him out of nowhere with her chakra chains, which are quite formidable.





> Which is also irrelevant because neither of the things Suigetsu or Orochimaru can hit Tobi with can be compared to the things Itachi can hit him with.
> Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu and Totsuka are all oneshot kills in this case.


 Tsukuyomi will not work, and I already explained why Amaterasu and Totsuka won't land.




> No. You are just embarassing yourself at this point.


 Tobi was depicted as being able to pose a great threat to thousands of alliance members who were all significantly enhanced, as well as four out of the five kage, and even Edo Hiruzen as Karin was the one who fucked up the statue not him, and even after she and Taka leave we see Tobi still fighting them and Hiruzen there. Though the statue is on the ground, Tobi isn't defeated, which means Hiruzen and the rest of them couldn't do it. So no, you're the one who is embarrassing themselves if you think Itachi is easily one-shotting an opponent on that level.


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## Sapherosth (Aug 19, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> *He quite literally doesn't, he doesn't have any organs whatsoever so I don't know what you're on about. There is no argument to be made here, he was never shown being susceptible to Genjutsu and lacks a brain which is what is required to initiate it. So Sharingan: Genjutsu, it's derivatives, and Tsukuyomi won't work. It's that simple. *
> 
> 
> First off, how Karin approached the statue was off-panel and she already started off very close to it. It's pretty likely that Tobi wasn't paying attention to her whatsoever when she attacked it with her chains. So you can't use Karin as a reason for why Itachi can suddenly do it, that's flawed logic. He can't reduce that distance so quickly, because if he deactivates Susanoo and tries to Shunshin to the Buddha he'll run into it's Goton and get annihilated.
> ...




It's this simple


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## Android (Aug 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Looks about the same size as Oro's yamata technique


What the fuck ???? 


It's fucking big , Zetsu is the size of a human , and by comparing :
Zetsu --- Buddha's head/body
Naruto --- Yang Kurama's head/body 
and Naruto=zetsu in size 
The Buddha's main body *alone* is >= Half Kurama  


Sapherosth said:


> Karin jumped up to it quite easily.



What does Karin's ability to jump that high have to do with Amaterasu's range being limited .
Are you saying that Karin's range is also limited ???
@Isaiah13000 , you're wasting your time m8 .


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> It's this simple


 He has eyes, so I don't know what you think you proved. 

@cctr9 I know, I'm about to get double teamed by Sapherosth and Grimmjow who are two of the biggest Itachi supporters on this forum. But I just want to prove my point.


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## Sapherosth (Aug 19, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> He has eyes, so I don't know what you think you proved.
> 
> @cctr9 I know, I'm about to get double teamed by Sapherosth and Grimmjow who are two of the biggest Itachi supporters on this forum. But I just want to prove my point.




Er....Spiral zetsu has eyes, does he not? Oh wait, it's Yamato, so he's automatically immune to genjutsu? loool. Literally no different than Obito x Zetsu when kakashi killed Rin. Nothing suggests that that Obito is immune to genjutsu.


= I proved genjutsu/tsukuyomi can work on spiral.


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## Sapherosth (Aug 19, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> What the fuck ????
> 
> 
> It's fucking big , Zetsu is the size of a human , and by comparing :
> ...




Looks quite big to me.








Unless people are as big as trees, Hydra is fucking massive.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Er....Spiral zetsu has eyes, does he not? Oh wait, it's Yamato, so he's automatically immune to genjutsu? loool. Literally no different than Obito x Zetsu when kakashi killed Rin. Nothing suggests that that Obito is immune to genjutsu.


 Yamato's eyes are closed when Tobi is in control of him.... he didn't even open his eyes until IT was initiated and we saw the Rinnegan pattern.




> = I proved genjutsu/tsukuyomi can work on spiral.


 By showing me Sasuke using basic Sharingan: Genjutsu on a White Zetsu with eyes? Which Tobi lacks?


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## Sapherosth (Aug 19, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Yamato's eyes are closed when Tobi is in control of him.... he didn't even open his eyes until IT was initiated and we saw the Rinnegan pattern.
> 
> 
> By showing me Sasuke using basic Sharingan: Genjutsu on a White Zetsu with eyes? Which Tobi lacks?



You were saying white zetsu were immune to genjutsu earlier and I proved you wrong....wtf?


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You were saying white zetsu were immune to genjutsu earlier and I proved you wrong....wtf?


 I said Tobi is immune, because he has no eyes and no brain. You show me a scan of White Zetsu who do have eyes, and possibly a brain to prove that Genjutsu will work on Tobi, who lacks what they have. That's not comparable, you didn't prove anything.


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## Android (Aug 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Looks quite big to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You gotta be fucking kidding me 
@Isaiah13000 you need to see this , you're gonna die laughing 

The first scan means nothing , you just posted a scan of Yamata and stated that it looks big to you , without posting any sort of evidence for your stance 

The scan scan , the trees are are far behind Yamata , so of course from panels perspective it's gonna look very small compared to Yamata 

This is Sasuke compared to his armoured susanoo , which the same size as Itachi's armoured susanoo :


This is Itachi compared to his own armoured susanoo :


This is susanoo compared to Yamata :


And this is Orochimaru compared to Yamata's head :


So no , Yamata is no where near as large as Shinsuusenju , it's even embarrassing to compare them in size 
We're done here

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Aug 19, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I said Tobi is immune, because he has no eyes and no brain. You show me a scan of White Zetsu who do have eyes, and possibly a brain to prove that Genjutsu will work on Tobi, who lacks what they have. That's not comparable, you didn't prove anything.




Wut.

No brain, no eyes? How did he see and think? He's clearly using Yamato as a vessel. 




cctr9 said:


> You gotta be fucking kidding me
> @Isaiah13000 you need to see this , you're gonna die laughing
> 
> The first scan means nothing , you just posted a scan of Yamata and stated that it looks big to you , without posting any sort of evidence for your stance
> ...





Lmfao.


Look at yourself bro....seriously....look at it. You posted a scan where Susano is closer to us, thus look larger than it actually is and then try to make a comparison to Yamata as if it's comparable in size. As for the trees part, I was talking about the trees closer to us, which should actually look bigger than it actually is, because it's closer to us.


How do you explain this panel?


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Wut.
> 
> No brain, no eyes? How did he see and think? He's clearly using Yamato as a vessel.


 Tobi can see and think even without Yamato, he has done so before back when he first met Obito. He also did so again after he released Yamato's body, though he died for an unknown reason after the Infinite Tsukuyomi was over.


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## Sapherosth (Aug 19, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Tobi can see and think even without Yamato, he has done so before back when he first met Obito. He also did so again after he released Yamato's body, though he died for an unknown reason after the Infinite Tsukuyomi was over.







Funny how he has an eye hole when he can see without it. Must be there for the lolz, right?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 19, 2016)

Old Hiruzen and Karin shinoni I deem weaker than Itachi were able to counter Spiral tech , I give the edge to Itachi here high diff


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## Android (Aug 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Lmfao.


Lmfao indeed 


Sapherosth said:


> Look at yourself bro


Look at _*your*_ self bro


Sapherosth said:


> seriously


Lmfao , yes seriously


Sapherosth said:


> You posted a scan where Susano is closer to us, thus look larger than it actually is and then try to make a comparison to Yamata as if it's comparable in size.


Lmfao no , look at it again , as i showed you in the previous post , Oro is about as tall as Yamata's head , guess what , so is Itachi , in the scan where susanoo and yamata are next to each other .
They are very close to each other by scaling
Oro to Yamata's head to Itachi .
Lmfao


Sapherosth said:


> I was talking about the trees closer to us, which should actually look bigger than it actually is, because it's closer to us.


Lmfao , neither the trees close to us , nor the trees far away from us behind Yamata are gonna help your argument , if you're looking at the trees close to us , the scan isn't even clear nor does it prove/mean/worth anything . We have a direct comparision between :
- Yamata and Susanoo
- Oro and Yamata's head
- Itachi and Yamata
Don't know why the hell i'm wasting my time , it's disgustingly abvious that the Buddha dwarf Yamata in size , a simple look at Itachi's susanoo and Yamata , and then a simple look at the Buddha can tell you everything
Lmfao , look at you man , you have no feet to stand on , just save yourself and concede


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Funny how he has an eye hole when he can see without it. Must be there for the lolz, right?


My point is, unlike the other Zetsu, he is completely hollow and has nothing inside of him at all. He defies any type of logic or reasoning, so it's unlikely that Genjutsu will have an effect on him. But for the sake of argument, let's say that it does. Itachi can't reach him without running into his Goton and getting pummeled by Chojo Kebutsu. There's also the fact that since he is in control of Yamato's body, logically, he can use all of his Jutsu which would make things even harder for Itachi when a large forest emerges out of nowhere or the ground rises/lowers/splits open/ect.


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## Sapherosth (Aug 19, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Lmfao indeed
> 
> Lmfao , look at your self bro
> 
> ...




Erm....okay....

Sizes are as consistent as ever in this manga. This one is the most accurate representative because we have direct comparison.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Android (Aug 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Erm....okay....
> 
> Sizes are as consistent as ever in this manga. This one is the most accurate representative because we have direct comparison.


Lmfao , concession accepted , and yes we have a direct comparison 
:

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 20, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> He quite literally doesn't, he doesn't have any organs whatsoever so I don't know what you're on about. There is no argument to be made here, he was never shown being susceptible to Genjutsu and lacks a brain which is what is required to initiate it. So Sharingan: Genjutsu, it's derivatives, and Tsukuyomi won't work. It's that simple.


Look, trying to act dense and ignore the things I said won't allow you walk around a debate. You either adress my points or concede. Its that simple.
Tobi can see, think and use jutsu. So why won't Itachi's genjutsu work on him which only requires the target to see, think and have a chakra network to take effect ?



> First off, how Karin approached the statue was off-panel and she already started off very close to it. It's pretty likely that Tobi wasn't paying attention to her whatsoever when she attacked it with her chains. So you can't use Karin as a reason for why Itachi can suddenly do it, that's flawed logic.


Its not flawed logic, Itachi is fuckloads faster and more resourceful than Karin. If someone like Karin can close the distance on it, then Itachi can also do it.



> He can't reduce that distance so quickly, because if he deactivates Susanoo and tries to Shunshin to the Buddha he'll run into it's Goton and get annihilated.


He can use a bunshin as a distraction, Itachi has closed in on faster people with distractions.



> The Buddha's Goton has a large AoE, Itachi will get smothered by it and have his LoS blocked which leaves him open to being hit with Chojo Kebutsu.


Goton's AOE isn't something that covers the whole landscape. Itachi can dodge it, or at the very worst case he can momentarily activate Susano'O, tank it, and then keep moving. Like I already proved, blocking Itachi's LOS won't accomplish anything here.



> Both times he one-shot someone with Totsuka, they were heavily disadvantaged.


Bullshit. Neither Oro nor Nagato were heavily disadvantaged.
Itachi was also disadvantaged against Orochimaru, he was... like dying you know.



> Orochimaru was a large stationary target who didn't know he had the Totsuka in his inventory


Whether Oro was stationary or not doesn't matter as he couldn't react to begin with. Buddha is also a giant stationary target, fyi which Itachi can use Totsuka to seal like it sealed Yamata no Orochi.



> ,and Nagato was immobile, blinded by the dust cloud that was created, and had his sensing deactivated. So the events revolving around him one-shotting people with it were already heavily in his favor.


Itachi was also blinded by the same dustcloud, so it was a mutual disadvantage, in other words it wasn't a disadvantage. Nagato being immobile doesn't matter much as well because he has shinra tensei that is a more reliable defense than on foot dodging but Nagato couldn't even react to it.

Also Nagato's immobility is an issue that people blow out of proportion. Looking at how Deva fought he opted to use shinra tensei to defend himself whenever he could and used BT to bring his opponent to himself rather than just walking up to them. So it is pretty clear that Nagato wasn't a highly mobile fighter even when he had mobility. You may argue that it was a disadvantage in general, but a heavy disadvantage ? Not really.

So both times Itachi tagged someone with Totsuka, he wasn't relying on his vision and his opponents were blitzed before they could react.
What was your argument again ?




> Chojo Kebutsu would destroy it, and the rest of Tobi's arsenal would keep Itachi at bay by manipulating the terrain with Yamato's Doton and using the Goton I mentioned before.


Goton has linear trajectory and can be evaded. Yamato's doton won't accomplish much as you know ninja can walk across any kind of terrain.



> It's not irrelevant at all, it signifies how powerful he is. Karin was an incredible distraction due to attacking him out of nowhere with her chakra chains, which are quite formidable.


Karin didn't attack Tobi, it attacked Buddha. Tobi was blindsided when he was preoccupied attacking Karin, which is something a bunshin can easily replicate as we've seen Itachi pull off many times before.



> Tsukuyomi will not work, and I already explained why Amaterasu and Totsuka won't land.


Tsukiyomi will work and you haven't explained anything.
You just claimed Itachi will never be able to close the distance to land those which is completely unfounded.
Itachi doesn't even need to go to point blank distance like Suigetsu or Karin(lol), he can use them from a distance.



> Tobi was depicted as being able to pose a great threat to thousands of alliance members who were all significantly enhanced, as well as four out of the five kage, and even Edo Hiruzen as Karin was the one who fucked up the statue not him, and even after she and Taka leave we see Tobi still fighting them and Hiruzen there. Though the statue is on the ground, Tobi isn't defeated, which means Hiruzen and the rest of them couldn't do it. So no, you're the one who is embarrassing themselves if you think Itachi is easily one-shotting an opponent on that level.


Thousands of fodder are still fodder. Dealing with fodder doesn't reflect on a shinobi's potential.
Guys like Kisame or Deidara can deal with thousands of fodder due to their massive AOE techniques alot better than Itachi can and yet you can't claim that they are depicted as more powerful than Itachi.

The off panel efforts of 4 exhausted Kage and Hiruzen also don't mean anything here as I said before, all it took was a distraction from Karin and Suigetsu to outmanuver him.
You can flush all that artificial hype down the drain at that point.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 21, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Look, trying to act dense and ignore the things I said won't allow you walk around a debate. You either adress my points or concede. Its that simple.
> Tobi can see, think and use jutsu. So why won't Itachi's genjutsu work on him which only requires the target to see, think and have a chakra network to take effect ?


 I literally already said why, because he doesn't have a brain nor a chakra network based on what we've seen?




> Its not flawed logic, Itachi is fuckloads faster and more resourceful than Karin. If someone like Karin can close the distance on it, then Itachi can also do it.


 No, because we don't know exactly how she did so. If she used her chains to do it while Tobi was distracted, then that isn't comparable to Itachi who is 40 meters away from Tobi and coming directly at him doing it when he doesn't have anything in his arsenal that can compete with those chains. Just because he is faster doesn't mean he is granted her feat.




> He can use a bunshin as a distraction, Itachi has closed in on faster people with distractions.


 His Susanoo is already active, so his eyesight and chakra reserves are already rapidly depleting. He has also never shown the ability to use a Bunshin during or after Susanoo activation, so no, he isn't using one as a distraction.




> Goton's AOE isn't something that covers the whole landscape. Itachi can dodge it, or at the very worst case he can momentarily activate Susano'O, tank it, and then keep moving. Like I already proved, blocking Itachi's LOS won't accomplish anything here.


 Baseless. The Kage and the Alliance were getting fucked by the Buddha, but Itachi can easily dodge it's attacks, blitz it, and one-shot it because you say so right?




> Bullshit. Neither Oro nor Nagato were heavily disadvantaged.
> Itachi was also disadvantaged against Orochimaru, he was... like dying you know.


 They factually were, and Orochimaru's disadvantage was worse than Itachi's.




> Whether Oro was stationary or not doesn't matter as he couldn't react to begin with. Buddha is also a giant stationary target, fyi which Itachi can use Totsuka to seal like it sealed Yamata no Orochi.


 Yes, an Orochimaru who didn't have a care in the world about being hit by Itachi's attacks since he didn't think they could do anything. Who also still had his arms sealed and had just reemerged from being in a critical state, and unless you can prove he was healthier and recovered since then, then don't even bother to act like he had recovered and was at full strength.




> Itachi was also blinded by the same dustcloud, so it was a mutual disadvantage, in other words it wasn't a disadvantage. Nagato being immobile doesn't matter much as well because he has shinra tensei that is a more reliable defense than on foot dodging but Nagato couldn't even react to it.


 The thing is, Itachi knew where Nagato was standing and thus all he had to do was stab in that direction whilst Nagato couldn't do anything due to his immobility and being controlled by Kabuto who was unaware of his sensing.



> Also Nagato's immobility is an issue that people blow out of proportion. Looking at how Deva fought he opted to use shinra tensei to defend himself whenever he could and used BT to bring his opponent to himself rather than just walking up to them. So it is pretty clear that Nagato wasn't a highly mobile fighter even when he had mobility. You may argue that it was a disadvantage in general, but a heavy disadvantage ? Not really.


   Erm, no. Even Kabuto attributed Nagato's loss to his lack of mobility, and Kabuto had no idea that Nagato was a sensor. I like how you retaliate whilst ignoring that important fact. Also, when you reply, don't be typical and act like Nagato's sensing was irrelevant when the dude literally has some of the greatest sensing feats in the entirety of the Manga. Yet I'm sure you'll twist things as you usually do and come up with some faulty response as to why it doesn't matter and isn't practical in battle (although it has canonically allowed Nagato to anticipate attacks ahead of time).



> So both times Itachi tagged someone with Totsuka, he wasn't relying on his vision and his opponents were blitzed before they could react.
> What was your argument again ?


 So in reality, the only targets Itachi ever tagged with Totsuka were ones that were in a weakened state, lacked knowledge, were large and/or stationary, had their sensory prowess deactivated, and were immobile.





> Goton has linear trajectory and can be evaded. Yamato's doton won't accomplish much as you know ninja can walk across any kind of terrain.


 You keep forgetting that this is a living Itachi who is already using his strongest variant of Susanoo. He has never shown the ability to quickly cross large distances while in that pitiful state, let alone when his LoS is completely negated and the terrain beneath him is completely changed with the clap of the hands even if he can walk on it.




> Karin didn't attack Tobi, it attacked Buddha. Tobi was blindsided when he was preoccupied attacking Karin, which is something a bunshin can easily replicate as we've seen Itachi pull off many times before.


I've already explained why his Bunshin isn't going to reach him before it's destroyed.




> Tsukiyomi will work and you haven't explained anything.
> You just claimed Itachi will never be able to close the distance to land those which is completely unfounded.
> Itachi doesn't even need to go to point blank distance like Suigetsu or Karin(lol), he can use them from a distance.


 Yes I have. Tsukuyomi won't work because Tobi is immune to genjutsu, by the time Amaterasu is charged and fired it'll run into Tobi's Goton and then Itachi cannot see him, the Totsuka won't reach that far and Itachi cannot move at top speed with Susanoo active so he isn't crossing 40 meters in the blink of an eye with Goton raining down on him with Chojo Kebutsu coming immediately afterwards.




> Thousands of fodder are still fodder. Dealing with fodder doesn't reflect on a shinobi's potential.
> Guys like Kisame or Deidara can deal with thousands of fodder due to their massive AOE techniques alot better than Itachi can and yet you can't claim that they are depicted as more powerful than Itachi.


 Those fodder were all drastically enhanced by Yin-Yang Kurama, and were being lead by the four Kage yet apparently none of them could do shit.



> The off panel efforts of 4 exhausted Kage and Hiruzen also don't mean anything here as I said before, all it took was a distraction from Karin and Suigetsu to outmanuver him.
> You can flush all that artificial hype down the drain at that point.


 No, you clearly aren't getting this. If Tsunade, A, Mei, Onoki, Mifune, and thousands of shinobi and samurai all enhanced by the strongest chakra cloak Yin-Yang Kurama could muster couldn't do jackshit to Tobi with his Buddha on their own until Karin brought out the Adamantine Sealing Chains, and even after she and Taka left and then Edo Hiruzen was left there to face it and was apparently unable to destroy it and defeat Tobi. Then your ridiculous assertion that Itachi will blitz it and one-shot it is completely unfounded, illogical, and shouldn't be taken seriously. Even the damned Juubi was getting subdued by the Alliance due to their superb teamwork before they were all even enhanced, yet it was implied they all would've died from it's Goton had Hiruzen not stepped in. You're flat-out wrong, and need to admit that Itachi cannot win. Take off your Itachi goggles and realize there is a significant portrayal difference.


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## Icegaze (Aug 21, 2016)

I wonder do the other zetsu poop
Or have organs


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## Sapherosth (Aug 21, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I wonder do the other zetsu poop
> Or have organs




Nope 

But for some reason, genjutsu works on fodder zetsu, but not on spiral zetsu.


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## Icegaze (Aug 21, 2016)

I find the arguments stupid mostly because for example while minato <<<<<< the alliance and several weakened kage 
Minqto will easily get to spiral zetsu 
The same way Karin easily got to it 
It's about move set here ... Not oh x didn't do it so let's ignore what Y has and say he can't do it either 

Unless we are then using that logic , if so Karin>>> gokage 

Who is <<<< Danzo as he 1 shots with 1 kick 

It's a story kishi stopped caring about so A>B>C logic is purely daft

The argument should be how do their Jutsu work against each other

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 22, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I literally already said why, because he doesn't have a brain nor a chakra network based on what we've seen?


Concession accepted.



> No, because we don't know exactly how she did so. If she used her chains to do it while Tobi was distracted, then that isn't comparable to Itachi who is 40 meters away from Tobi and coming directly at him doing it when he doesn't have anything in his arsenal that can compete with those chains. Just because he is faster doesn't mean he is granted her feat.



There is nothing preventing Itachi from forming a bunshin, using it as a distraction and then flank Tobi. 
40 meters is nothing. It can be covered within the blink of an eye.



> His Susanoo is already active, so his eyesight and chakra reserves are already rapidly depleting.


Horseshit.
Please refrain from asserting made up stuff, you are losing credibility, if you have left any.



> He has also never shown the ability to use a Bunshin during or after Susanoo activation, so no, he isn't using one as a distraction.


 also shown in the page before hand
 also shown in the page before hand



> Baseless. The Kage and the Alliance were getting fucked by the Buddha, but Itachi can easily dodge it's attacks, blitz it, and one-shot it because you say so right?



Not because I said so, but because it is common sense.
We know that Karin and Suigetsu can teamwork their way into landing a hit on Tobi. So a vastly superior shinobi who has the tools to do it can land a hit too. The difference here is, when Itachi lands a hit, it isn't like Suigetsu's water gun.



> They factually were, and Orochimaru's disadvantage was worse than Itachi's.


Orochimaru didn't have a disadvantage. He came out of Sasuke fresh in his ultimate form, while Itachi was fully blind and moments away from death.
You are so delusional that it isn't even funny.



> Yes, an Orochimaru who didn't have a care in the world about being hit by Itachi's attacks since he didn't think they could do anything.


You don't get it. Orochimaru didn't get hit on purpose. He couldn't even react. He was mid-rant and a blade went through him before he could finish his words and he was visibly surprised.



> Who also still had his arms sealed and had just reemerged from being in a critical state, and unless you can prove he was healthier and recovered since then, then don't even bother to act like he had recovered and was at full strength.



Armless Oro is a retcon as we all know. He was capable of using his arms at that point as you can see he had a sword in his hand. He also was using them against Naruto earlier in part 2.

And as far as our manga knowledge goes, the only jutsu that requires a seal sequence in Oro's repertoire is Edo tensei. He could use Oral rebirth, all the snake related shit, summons and his ultimate jutsu Yamata no Orochi without his hands.
Orochimaru wasn't at a disadvantage. 



> The thing is, Itachi knew where Nagato was standing and thus all he had to do was stab in that direction whilst Nagato couldn't do anything due to his immobility and being controlled by Kabuto who was unaware of his sensing.


Like I said, he could have used ST, which doesn't require him to move. The problem was that he wasn't able to react.



> Erm, no. Even Kabuto attributed Nagato's loss to his lack of mobility, and Kabuto had no idea that Nagato was a sensor. I like how you retaliate whilst ignoring that important fact. Also, when you reply, don't be typical and act like Nagato's sensing was irrelevant when the dude literally has some of the greatest sensing feats in the entirety of the Manga. Yet I'm sure you'll twist things as you usually do and come up with some faulty response as to why it doesn't matter and isn't practical in battle (although it has canonically allowed Nagato to anticipate attacks ahead of time).



Kabuto didn't attribute to loss the the lack of mobility. He used Nagato's "dulled" movement as an excuse to explain why he set up that Rinnegan perimeter for defensive purposes. So he was relying on rinnegan's field of vision to defend himself and when Itachi took care of that, he wasn't able to.

And like I said, if Nagato didn't have time to use ST, he wouldn't have time to dodge on foot. Its not brainer.



> So in reality, the only targets Itachi ever tagged with Totsuka were ones that were in a weakened state, lacked knowledge, were large and/or stationary, had their sensory prowess deactivated, and were immobile.


I already adressed these. 
Orochimaru wasn't at a disadvantage, and Nagato wasn't as heavily hindered as you are making it out to be.

While you haven't adressed anything I said. You should concede on the LOS blocking now I think. There is more than enough evidence to show that it won't hinder Itachi.



> You keep forgetting that this is a living Itachi who is already using his strongest variant of Susanoo. He has never shown the ability to quickly cross large distances while in that pitiful state, let alone when his LoS is completely negated and the terrain beneath him is completely changed with the clap of the hands even if he can walk on it.



You are just talking out of your ass at this point.
The only time we've seen Itachi in a pitiful state was when he was exhausted, hurt, almost out of chakra and dying from a terminal illness.

Why are you assuming that he'll start out the fight in that state ? Its pretty obvious that you need to create bullshit artificial circumstances to take away the win from Itachi here. Which means deep down you know that Itachi would win under normal circumstances.



> I've already explained why his Bunshin isn't going to reach him before it's destroyed.


No you haven't. Itachi can pull a bunshin and close halfway in before even B realizes whats going on(and would have never realized it if not for Nagato's warning). B takes his eyes off from Itachi for 1 second and Itachi is behind him in the next.
I don't need to prove to you how agile and quick Itachi is and how quickly he utilizes bunshins.
You have to prove to me why he can't do those things here. 



> Yes I have. Tsukuyomi won't work because Tobi is immune to genjutsu


No he is not.


> , by the time Amaterasu is charged


Yyou mean a second or two.


> and fired it'll run into Tobi's Goton and then Itachi cannot see him


,

Lmao Tobi is not intercepting Amaterasu with shitty elemental attacks, are you on drugs on something ? 
Even if he did, we already saw Amaterasu eat through a katon, so at the very worst case it eats through the elementals and makes it way to Tobi and kills him eventually.



> he Totsuka won't reach that far



Distance is 40 meters, a regular human can run 100 meters under 10 seconds.
The most average shinobi is leaps and bounds over the best athlete in the world. 
What the actual fuck are you talking about ? 
Itachi can take 2 steps and the distance is already 10 meters and he can easily use Totsuka from that distance.



> and Itachi cannot move at top speed with Susanoo active so he isn't crossing 40 meters in the blink of an eye with Goton raining down on him with Chojo Kebutsu coming immediately afterwards.


He can use Susano'O when he reaches top speed though :  also shown in the page before hand  also shown in the page before hand
Itachi can cross 40 meters in the blink of an eye and can activate Susano'O to defend himself if he needs to.



> Those fodder were



They are still fodder.



> No, you clearly aren't getting this. If Tsunade, A, Mei, Onoki, Mifune, and thousands of shinobi and samurai all enhanced by the strongest chakra cloak Yin-Yang Kurama could muster couldn't do jackshit to Tobi with his Buddha on their own


Thats on them. Their off-panel incompetence has nothing to do with Itachi, stop bringing that up.



> until Karin brought out the Adamantine Sealing Chains, and even after she and Taka left and then Edo Hiruzen was left there to face it and was apparently unable to destroy it and defeat Tobi. Then your ridiculous assertion that Itachi will blitz it and one-shot it is completely unfounded, illogical, and shouldn't be taken seriously.



Again, Karin and Suigetsu outmanuvered Tobi. The things others weren't able to do are completely irrelevant. 
Itachi isn't going into a slugfest against Buddha and try to defeat it when it is much easier to avoid it and go for Tobi.



> Even the damned Juubi was getting subdued by the Alliance due to their superb teamwork before they were all even enhanced, yet it was implied they all would've died from it's Goton had Hiruzen not stepped in. You're flat-out wrong, and need to admit that Itachi cannot win. Take off your Itachi goggles and realize there is a significant portrayal difference.



So you are saying that Tobi's Buddha is stronger than Juubi ? Based on the fact that 4 exhausted Kage and alliance fodder weren't able to do anything to it off panel ?

Why didn't you say this earlier in the debate ? I'd just put you in the ignore list and pretend like you never said such bullshit and save us both some time.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 22, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Concession accepted.


 Arguing with you is going to result in the desolation of my own brain, I swear.





> There is nothing preventing Itachi from forming a bunshin, using it as a distraction and then flank Tobi.
> 40 meters is nothing. It can be covered within the blink of an eye.
> 
> 
> ...


 That is literally a Manga *fact*, for someone who is Itachi's number one fanboy you a have tendency to be wrong regarding his actual abilities.




> Link removed
> Link removed


 That is an Edo Itachi, not the partially blind and terminally ill Itachi who can only maintain Susanoo for a few minutes before dying and is much slower and less reflexive compared to when he was healthy. But of course, you will respond with some excuse as to why this isn't true and he can do it when alive perfectly fine.





> Not because I said so, but because it is common sense.
> We know that Karin and Suigetsu can teamwork their way into landing a hit on Tobi. So a vastly superior shinobi who has the tools to do it can land a hit too. The difference here is, when Itachi lands a hit, it isn't like Suigetsu's water gun.


 I've already explained the fallacies in your logic.




> Orochimaru didn't have a disadvantage. He came out of Sasuke *fresh *in his ultimate form, while Itachi was fully blind and moments away from death.
> You are so delusional that it isn't even funny.


 Completely baseless, as is the majority of your arguments.




> You don't get it. Orochimaru didn't get hit on purpose. He couldn't even react. He was mid-rant and a blade went through him before he could finish his words and he was visibly surprised.


 I never said he got hit on purpose, I'm saying since he was in a critical state and was stationary he was an easy target.





> *Armless Oro is a retcon as we all know. He was capable of using his arms at that point as you can see he had a sword in his hand. He also was using them against Naruto earlier in part 2.*
> 
> And as far as our manga knowledge goes, the only jutsu that requires a seal sequence in Oro's repertoire is Edo tensei. He could use Oral rebirth, all the snake related shit, summons and his ultimate jutsu Yamata no Orochi without his hands.
> Orochimaru wasn't at a disadvantage.


 The bold is completely false, it was never retconned. That was made explicitly clear when Orochimaru wanted to get his arms back in the War Arc so he could cast Edo Tensei, and it was even stated by Sasuke and Suigetsu that he only won because Orochimaru couldn't use ninjutsu. Orochimaru is only able to use snake-based jutsu, and Kuchiyose, because they lack hand seals, the rest of his arsenal cannot be used and is mostly unknown because he couldn't use it. The dude was capable of using all five basic nature transformations, Inton, and Yoton and was aiming to master all jutsu in the world. His inability to use ninjutsu was depicted as being a serious setback, by Orochimaru himself as well.




> Like I said, he could have used ST, which doesn't require him to move. The problem was that he wasn't able to react.
> 
> 
> Kabuto didn't attribute to loss the the lack of mobility. He used Nagato's "dulled" movement as an excuse to explain why he set up that Rinnegan perimeter for defensive purposes. So he was relying on rinnegan's field of vision to defend himself and when Itachi took care of that, he wasn't able to.
> ...


 He didn't have time to do so because he didn't know that Itachi was going to stab him with it through the smoke. This is where his lack of sensing, lack of mobility, and being controlled by a dude who thought it was smart to completely ignore Itachi during battle comes in.




> I already adressed these.
> Orochimaru wasn't at a disadvantage, and Nagato wasn't as heavily hindered as you are making it out to be.
> 
> While you haven't adressed anything I said. You should concede on the LOS blocking now I think. There is more than enough evidence to show that it won't hinder Itachi.


 Just because you choose to ignore canon and like to create excuses as to why Itachi quickly stabbing and sealing away two massively disadvantaged opponents is impressive doesn't mean you've won.





> You are just talking out of your ass at this point.
> The only time we've seen Itachi in a pitiful state was when he was exhausted, hurt, almost out of chakra and dying from a terminal illness.
> 
> Why are you assuming that he'll start out the fight in that state ? Its pretty obvious that you need to create bullshit artificial circumstances to take away the win from Itachi here. Which means deep down you know that Itachi would win under normal circumstances.


 Itachi starts off using his V4 Susanoo per the OP, that means he is fucked up as soon as the battle begins and is already knocking at death's door as we've seen in the Manga.




> No you haven't. Itachi can pull a bunshin and close halfway in before even B realizes whats going on(and would have never realized it if not for Nagato's warning). B takes his eyes off from Itachi for 1 second and Itachi is behind him in the next.
> I don't need to prove to you how agile and quick Itachi is and how quickly he utilizes bunshins.
> You have to prove to me why he can't do those things here.


 Stop giving Itachi his Edo Tensei feats, this isn't a healthy Itachi.




> No he is not.
> 
> Yyou mean a second or two.


 I mean enough time for Nagato to sense it, warn Naruto and B about it, for B to throw a sword at Itachi, and for Nagato to deflect it away all before Itachi uses it.
,



> Lmao Tobi is not intercepting Amaterasu with shitty elemental attacks, are you on drugs on something ?
> Even if he did, we already saw Amaterasu eat through a katon, so at the very worst case it eats through the elementals and makes it way to Tobi and kills him eventually.


 It halts Amaterasu, which allows Tobi to follow up with Chojo Kebutsu as I've stated several times.





> Distance is 40 meters, a regular human can run 100 meters under 10 seconds.
> The most average shinobi is leaps and bounds over the best athlete in the world.
> What the actual fuck are you talking about ?
> Itachi can take 2 steps and the distance is already 10 meters and he can easily use Totsuka from that distance.


 Not when shrouded in Susanoo he can't, it slows him down as seen in every use, and if he deactivates it he's engulfed in Goton.




> He can use Susano'O when he reaches top speed though : Link removed Link removed
> Itachi can cross 40 meters in the blink of an eye and can activate Susano'O to defend himself if he needs to.


 *Stop using Edo Itachi's feats to support a living and deathly ill Itachi. A living Itachi was partially blind, stricken with an unknown disease and was taking medication to even stay alive, and was stated to be much slower and less reflexive compared to normal. I don't why you and so many people keep insisting on giving him feats from his full eyesight, non-terminally sick, constantly replenishing chakra, unable to feel pain, and immortal regenerating body self. It was clear he was much stronger than he would've been when alive, Edo Itachi is basically the closest thing we have to a hypothetical healthy Itachi.*





> They are still fodder.
> 
> 
> Thats on them. Their off-panel incompetence has nothing to do with Itachi, stop bringing that up.
> ...


 So basically what you're saying is, I don't care if the Buddha was portrayed as dominating a collective unit that is significantly stronger than Itachi. Because in my opinion, Itachi will overcome and one-shot it because he is Itachi.





> So you are saying that Tobi's Buddha is stronger than Juubi ? *Based on the fact that 4 exhausted Kage and alliance fodder weren't able to do anything to it off panel ?*
> 
> Why didn't you say this earlier in the debate ? I'd just put you in the ignore list and pretend like you never said such bullshit and save us both some time.


 Except, I never ever said that. I was saying that whatever it was capable of doing to them all, was enough to overwhelm their collective teamwork and slaughter a lot of them. The Kage weren't exhausted beforehand though, they were all fine after being restored by Tsunade, who was stated to be fine by Katsuyu. So whatever happened off-panel, resulted in a restored Tsunade, Onoki, A, Mei, Mifune, and thousands of amped up fodder being dominated by this thing and here you are saying Itachi will one-shot it cause he's Itachi. We've already seen what the Kage can do together, they have great synergy, and so does the Alliance, even someone as weak as Hinata could deflect the Juubi's tail with a single Hakke Kusho when amped up. Most of the Konoha 11 were also shown facing the Buddha, and were amped up as well, and apparently none of them could do shit to it. I know it's illogical, and quite stupid, but so was the whole War Arc. Sitting here and trying to argue that Itachi can blitz and one-shot a man who was depicted as dominating four out of the five Kage, Team Asuma and Kurenai, and thousands of Allied Shinobi Forces who can also subdue the Juubi when they are and aren't supercharged by Naruto is simply foolish and reeks of fanboyism and ignorance.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 24, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Arguing with you is going to result in the desolation of my own brain, I swear.


Implying it isn't desolated already. Ok 



> That is literally a Manga *fact*, for someone who is Itachi's number one fanboy you a have tendency to be wrong regarding his actual abilities.


Concession accepted.



> That is an Edo Itachi



Edo Itachi is basically Itachi without the illness. The op doesn't specificy that Itachi is in his deathbed, so we aren't going to assume he is.



> not the partially blind


,
Being partially blind didn't hinder him as we know he has pinpoint accuracy regardless : see the AoE of C4



> and terminally ill Itachi who can only maintain Susanoo for a few minutes before dying


He was able to maintain Susano'O for a few minutes because he already used 2 amaterasu, 1 Tsukiyomi at that point. On top of his wounds and other stuff that exhausted him.
I thought there is a limit to your dishonesty, but I guess there isn't.



> and is much slower and less reflexive compared to when he was healthy.


His reflexes started diminishing after Sasuke broke his Tsukiyomi and after he started exhausting himself. Thats not how he started out the fight. And like I said, he was in his deathbed when he fought Sasuke. People who are usually days before their death are in a terrible shape. Unless the OP specifically says that this is the Itachi taht fought Sasuke, we don't need to create the exact same circumstances for him.



> But of course, you will respond with some excuse as to why this isn't true and he can do it when alive perfectly fine.


Its my duty to educate you on things that you aren't knowledgeable about.




> I've already explained the fallacies in your logic.


For the sake of moving forward, I'll automatically assume that you concede the points you can't adress. Concession accepted.




> Completely baseless, as is the majority of your arguments.


Concession accepted.



> I never said he got hit on purpose, I'm saying since he was in a critical state and was stationary he was an easy target.


He wasn't in a critical state and we saw Yamata no Orochi move, so he wasn't stationary. 
Being an easy target you are right about, but thats because Totsuka was too fast for him to react to, not because of anything else.



> The bold is completely false, it was never retconned. That was made explicitly clear when Orochimaru wanted to get his arms back in the War Arc so he could cast Edo Tensei, and it was even stated by Sasuke and Suigetsu that he only won because Orochimaru couldn't use ninjutsu.


Thats when it was retconned. 
It was never an issue mentioned before. We know for a fact that Orochimaru wasn't able to use his arms at all in part 1, and  yet in part 2 he was ablet to freely use his arms. 


> Orochimaru is only able to use snake-based jutsu, and Kuchiyose, because they lack hand seals,


Thats his whole arsenal bar ET.


> the rest of his arsenal cannot be used and is mostly unknown because he couldn't use it.


The rest of his arsenal is unknown because Kishimoto didn't write them in.
It doesn't exist as far as the manga goes.
So in all honesty, why do  you even bring that up? 
Want to start a debate about Kakashi's1000 jutsu he copied ? Are you that desperate  ?



> The dude was capable of using all five basic nature transformations, Inton, and Yoton and was aiming to master all jutsu in the world. His inability to use ninjutsu was depicted as being a serious setback, by Orochimaru himself as well.



Ok lets talk about Itachi's upper tier wind arsenal because the databook says he can use wind jutsu.



> He didn't have time to do so because he didn't know that Itachi was going to stab him with it through the smoke. This is where his lack of sensing, lack of mobility, and being controlled by a dude who thought it was smart to completely ignore Itachi during battle comes in.



Itachi didn't telegraph Nagato what his next attack would be ? But thats not fair.



> Just because you choose to ignore canon and like to create excuses as to why Itachi quickly stabbing and sealing away two massively disadvantaged opponents is impressive doesn't mean you've won.



I already explained in explicit detail why your claims about his opponents being in "massive" disadvantages is unfounded horseshit on your part.
So like we agreed, concession accepted.



> Itachi starts off using his V4 Susanoo per the OP, that means he is fucked up as soon as the battle begins and is already knocking at death's door as we've seen in the Manga.


This is the shape he was in before he used V4 Susano'O in the manga : see the AoE of C4

This is the shape he was when he started the fight : see the AoE of C4

See a difference ? 



> Stop giving Itachi his Edo Tensei feats, this isn't a healthy Itachi.


Op doesn't say this is death bed Itachi who used 2 Amaterasu, 1 Tsukiyomi, some other shit, and hit by lightning with a blood gashing wound on his leg.
So why are you assuming he is ? 



> I mean enough time for Nagato to sense it, warn Naruto and B about it, for B to throw a sword at Itachi, and for Nagato to deflect it away all before Itachi uses it.


Thats the outlier, literally every other time it was used it was faster than that.


> It halts Amaterasu, which allows Tobi to follow up with Chojo Kebutsu as I've stated several times.



It doesn't halt Amaterasu, Amaterasu gets bigger as it consumes whatever is in front of it :  Link removed



> Not when shrouded in Susanoo he can't, it slows him down as seen in every use, and if he deactivates it he's engulfed in Goton.


I've already shown you scans on  how he can run, activate Susano'O momentarily and keep his momentum.
Why are you being stubborn ? 



> Stop using Edo Itachi's feats to support a living and deathly ill Itachi.


I adressed this.
Concession accepted.



> So basically what you're saying is, I don't care if the Buddha was portrayed as dominating a collective unit that is significantly stronger than Itachi. Because in my opinion, Itachi will overcome and one-shot it because he is Itachi.



Buddha is not a character, it is a jutsu. And The character vielding it wasn't portrayed above Itachi.
Like Itachi said, every jutsu has a weakness.
As we've seen, all it takes to dismantle Tobi is a distraction followed up by Suigetsu of all people. Tobi is weak no matter how strong you believe Buddha is.



> Except, I never ever said that.


Well you implied it by comparing the off panel performance of alliance fodder and the kage against Buddha to their performance against Juubi. Did you not ? 


> I was saying that whatever it was capable of doing to them all, was enough to overwhelm their collective teamwork and slaughter a lot of them.


Who did he slaughter really ? A bunch of fodder ?
Are you using slaughtering fodder as a means to justfiy your argument ?



> The Kage weren't exhausted beforehand though, they were all fine after being restored by Tsunade, who was stated to be fine by Katsuyu. So whatever happened off-panel, resulted in a restored Tsunade, Onoki, A, Mei, Mifune,thousands of amped up fodder being dominated by this thing and here you are saying Itachi will one-shot it cause he's Itachi.


Its unknown to what extend they were restored. And after they arrived at the battlefield, they did some off panel shit(fighting god tree) before they met Tobi.
You are completely ignoring circumstances, and toolset. Itachi's arsenal is completely different than Gokage's and it bypasess conventional means of defense.

Itachi will oneshot Tobi, the why Karin and Suigetsu outmanuvered.



> We've already seen what the Kage can do together, they have great synergy,


Too bad it wasn't as effective as Karin and Suigetsu's collaboration.
Like I said, their incompetence has nothing to do with Itachi here. You can't go "gokage wasn't able to do anything offpanel neither can Itachi."
Thats a fallacious argument. Hell, thats not even an argument.



> and so does the Alliance, even someone as weak as Hinata could deflect the Juubi's tail with a single Hakke Kusho when amped up. Most of the Konoha 11 were also shown facing the Buddha, and were amped up as well, and apparently none of them could do shit to it. I know it's illogical, and quite stupid, but so was the whole War Arc. Sitting here and trying to argue that Itachi can blitz and one-shot a man who was depicted as dominating four out of the five Kage, Team Asuma and Kurenai, and thousands of Allied Shinobi Forces who can also subdue the Juubi when they are and aren't supercharged by Naruto is simply foolish and reeks of fanboyism and ignorance.



What happened off panel is irrelevant. I don't know what the fuck they were doing all that time. I don't care, there is no way we can know. But all we know is that, when it switched back to on panel action, all it took to outmanuver Tobi was a distraction from Karin and an attack from Suigetsu.

We know about Buddha's and Itachi's capabilities, and how Karin and Suigetsu can outmanuver Tobi. Tobi is just a juiced up Yamato. Itachi fucks his shit up.
Your whole argument about how Tobi is portrayed above Itachi goes down the drain when you read the on panel action of team Orochimaru against him.


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## Sapherosth (Aug 24, 2016)

Team Oro dismantled the Buddha and Tobi.


The alliance+Gokage+edo hiruzen failed. Does that mean Team Oro > The alliance, K11, Gokage and edo Hiruzen? 


Common  sense please.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 26, 2016)

@Grimmjowsensei  I've completely lost interest in this conversation. I'm not going to bother to give you another multi-paragraph response only for you to say I'm wrong all over again. You can continue to believe that Itachi is the winner all you want, I could care less, but I'm done here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 27, 2016)

It wasn't interesting to begin with. You were just trying to play the devils advocate, which you always do when it is a thread about Itachi. Hatred in itself is a very disturbing emotion, but its more disturbing when its channeled into an imaginary character. Just let go brother, you'll feel better.


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