# Strongest person Hiruzen can beat



## animeboy1 (Mar 31, 2014)

Strongest person, the following versions of Hiruzen can defeat:

.1 Old man Hiruzen
.2 Prime Hiruzen

I'm not really sure, what prime Hiruzen, refers to. Only more Chakra? Like Edo Hiruzen?

Also, where exactly does Enma stand, in regard to the other summons? Like Sannin level summons?

Apart from this, if possible, state the strongest Akatsuki member, and Kage, that prime Hiruzen can defeat.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 31, 2014)

Prime hiruzen is said to be the strongest hokage, so he beats anyone but the juubi's host. 
Old hiruzen, perhaps the strongest he can defeat is current Yamato?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Mar 31, 2014)

Old Man Hiruzen can beat Sasori mainly because of his defensive Doton, Enma cage, bunshin cover and mid-range Ninjutsu (assuming he has knowledge on Sasori's techniques). 

Prime Hiruzen, that is, the Hiruzen on the level of his current Edo-self (maybe stronger), could comfortably beat Kakuzu and with high difficulty beat Pain (assuming he has knowledge on them). 

Because of the matchup, Kisame would counter most of his techniques (chakra sapper). He stands a better chance against Itachi who cannot outright absorb his offensive techniques, though I still think Itachi (even sick) beats him majority of the time because of Susano, something that had the capacity to one-shot Orochimaru. Prime Hiruzen cannot defeat Cripple Nagato or Obito, they are bad match-ups. He can beat any other Akatsuki member below them (which I believe starts at Kakuzu as the strongest and trickles down). 

The strongest Kage Prime Hiruzen can defeat is probably Tobirama/Mu level, which are both extremely powerful.


----------



## J★J♥ (Mar 31, 2014)

Old Hiruzen - Probably Mifune ?  Don't really know.

Prime Hiruzen was stated to be strongest Hokage so probably Hashirama.





DaVizWiz said:


> Prime Hiruzen, that is, the Hiruzen on the level of his current Edo-self .



No his not. His old body can barely lift Enma when younger version should lift it without any effort.
And his maximum chakra pool is a joke edo regeneration did not change that.
500 mana with 500 mana regeneration per second is still < 10 000 mana with 1 mana reg second.


----------



## J★J♥ (Mar 31, 2014)

animeboy1 said:


> I'm not really sure, what prime Hiruzen, refers to. Only more Chakra? Like Edo Hiruzen?


His physical stats should be way above of what he had before dying. 
Faster.
Stronger - > He had trouble lifting Enma staff
Reaction speed should be higher too.
More Chakra.
Better hearing etc.



animeboy1 said:


> so, where exactly does Enma stand, in regard to the other summons? Like Sannin level summons?
> .


Enma is probably second strongest summoning after 100% Katsuyou



animeboy1 said:


> Apart from this, if possible, state the strongest Akatsuki member, and Kage, that prime Hiruzen can defeat.


All of them.


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 31, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Old Hiruzen - Probably Mifune ?  Don't really know.
> 
> Prime Hiruzen was stated to be strongest Hokage so probably Hashirama.
> 
> ...



Prime Hiruzen is Hiruzen when the kyuubi attacked. The databook and manga says that 10 years before Orochimaru's attack, he would not have been hampered by chakra. That is the only thing the manga says about prime Hiruzen. 

Now, the kyuubi attacked 13 years before Orochimaru's attack, in other words 3 years before chakra was an issue for Hiruzen. Hiruzen was 54 years old. In other words as old as the sannin are today. No excuses. 

Now, Kyuubi attack Hiruzen is barely Mei and Deidara level. That is the level of Prime Hiruzen


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

So i'm not going to go off feats, if you want those feat based comparisons I'm sure that many other people in the NBD will more than fulfill that request.

Old Hiruzen is suppose to be the strongest Gokage:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Kabuto: Well, we knew it wasn't going to be easy. After all, we did take on the Hokage fully knowing his reputation as the strongest leader of the five principal territories.




So the strongest Kage he can take down is probably Onoki; as Onoki was clearly highlighted in the Madara battle as the strongest of the Gokage. Granted one could argue a bit about whether Onoki got a bit stronger since then, but ether way it should be a good match and Onoki should represent that upper-limit of the strongest Kage Old Hiruzen can beat.  

As for strongest Akatsuki Old-Hiruzen can beat. Well his DB-Stat Total is 34, which puts him above the likes of Kakuzu, Deidara, Hidan. Kisame is a bit more debatable as he kept increasing after DBIII was released, so i'll exclude him. Like-wise Sasori is a .5 higher than him, but the DB wouldn't account for things like Summons, namely Enma, plus the Fan-book slates Old-Hiruzen as equivalent to Part I Orochimaru:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Fanbook, "The two shinobi [Orochimaru & Hiruzen] were equally matched and the battle seemed endless"




So Old Hiruzen is probably slightly above Sasori. So Sasori is the strongest I feel confident that Old-Hiruzen could beat more often than not. However Old-Hiruzen may also be able to draw with Part I Orochimaru, at least a few times, if we played out the match multiple times.

As for the weakest Kage, relatively speaking of course, that could beat Old-Hiruzen more often than not, it's probably Tobirama, who I believe has been portrayed above the likes of Part I Orochimaru and Onoki, at least slight. And the weakest Akatsuki, relatively speaking, that could beat Old-Hiruzen more often than not is probably Part I Itachi; I say Part I, simply to avoid delving into the near death Hebi-Sasuke fight Itachi.

With that said all of them; Onoki, Part I Itachi, Old-Hiruzen, Tobirama, and Part I Orochimaru, should all be relatively close, so it's not going to ever be a stomp imo.

----------------------

Second question, who can Prime-Hiruzen beat. Well Prime-Hiruzen has been indicated to be the strongest Hokage by a number of sources:


*Spoiler*: __ 



 ShounenSuki, "Iruka, Ch.94
「三代目は　特に歴代の中でも最強と言われポロフェッサーと呼ばれた天才だったんだぞ！」
"The sandaime, in particular, was a genius nicknamed the 'Professor,' and was called the strongest of all the Hokage".

the Sandaime was the strongest."

ShounenSuki, "When it comes to the Third Hokage's hype, there is little doubt that it is meant as absolute and definite as it seems. The context simply leaves little to no room for ambiguity here. Context is key with any such statement. The same goes for 最高."

Databook 1, Page 117
"プロフェッサー"と崇められる歴代最強の火影

The "Professor" revered as the strongest Hokage in history.

Databook 1, Page 119
"歴代最強""天才"など,三代目火影を形容する言葉はに満ちている.

"History's Strongest", "Genius", etc., there are many words that describe the Sandaime Hokage

DB2 Pg 84
Konohamaru paragraph:
歴代最強の火影と謳われた、三代目の血を継ぐ木ノ葉丸。“木ノ葉崩し”により敬愛する祖父を失い、その心は 悲しみに覆われる。だが必ずや里を守る大樹に成長するであろう。果てぬ目標の祖父を目指して・ ・・！！

Konohamaru, descended from Sandaime, who was praised as history’s strongest Hokage.

Frankie, "In terms of being referred to the "most powerful" or "strongest", Kishimoto tends to use "最強" (saikyou), which I have bolded in the above quotes.

the Sandaime Hogake still holds the title of "歴代最強" = saikyou rekidai = History's strongest"

Fanbook, "Said to surpass his predecessors"

Fanbook, "His wisdom and courage are godlike, and he stands at the pinnacle of not only Konoha, but the entire shinobi world"




So based on that the strongest he beats more often than not is Hashirama. The strongest he beats in Akatsuki, would be probably be Edo-Madara.  There is no Kage that beats him, but the weakest that could is probably Gai w/ 8th-Gate as it gives him strength beyond the Hokages:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Takl, "True…
That tech is a real double-edged sword."
"The state of all your(/the) eight gates being open is called 'hachimon tonko no jin'…
And instead of getting the power that even exceeds hokages for a short while,
you (/the one who opens their 8 gates) will, without fail…"
"Die! "




The weakest Akatsuki that would probably beat him is Juubito. 

But again this depends on whether you buy into Prime-Hiruzen's hype, if you don't I won't fault you for it, but at least you can see where i'm coming from.

-----------------

Final question when it comes to Enma. Supposedly Enma was considered the most powerful of all animal-summons:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Fanbook, "An old monkey trusted by the third hokage. Many say he is the most powerful of all the creatures that can be summoned"




And his staff form is even compared in might to a weapon wielded by the mythological indra [whether this applies to the in cannon indra, IDK] and having diamond toughness:


*Spoiler*: __ 



DB II, "A war veteran and a powerhouse, he was always to be found as Sandaime's right hand man, together with him on the battlefield, shapeshifted into the expandable Kongou Bou**" "**"Bou" simply means "staff". "Kongou" translates as "adamantine", "diamond", but is also a reference to "Vajra", Indra's indestructible weapon. Indra is an Hindu god. As usual, please refer to Wikipedia and Onmark Productions for better info."




Also one should consider that Hiruzen wielded Enma in staff form against Kurama:
[1]

To me that too says something about Enma's power and supports prior FB/DB assertions.

With that said I doubt this includes Bijuu, Edos [definately not edos as they aren't creatures, but humans], or GM type summons, but it seems highly likely that Enma is stronger than all other summons, including the Boss summons. Though bare in mind stronger than all other summons, does not mean better than all other summons in every situation. Nor does Hiruzen having the strongest [non-Bijuu/human] summon mean he is the best summoner in the manga, because variety and numbers can some-times outweigh individual strength. Though we won't ever know for sure, until we see more from Enma.



Senjuclan said:


> Prime Hiruzen is Hiruzen when the kyuubi attacked. The databook and manga says that 10 years before Orochimaru's attack, he *would not have been hampered by chakra. *That is the only thing the manga says about prime Hiruzen.
> 
> Now, the kyuubi attacked 13 years before Orochimaru's attack, in other words 3 years before chakra was an issue for Hiruzen. Hiruzen was 54 years old. In other words as old as the sannin are today. No excuses.
> 
> Now, Kyuubi attack Hiruzen is barely Mei and Deidara level. That is the level of Prime Hiruzen


No it doesn't. All the DB does is parrot the manga:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Sandaime: (Thinking) This can't be it... I've come so far... Are you saying... I don't even have enough strength... to pull out his soul...? That this aged body... is too decrepit, even though I have resolved to die...?!
Orochimaru: (Thinking) If you had been even just 10 years younger... You might have been able to kill me... Heh heh...




Here's the actual DB Quote by the by, which in no way says 10 years younger Hiruzen would be unaffected by age:


*Spoiler*: __ 



DBII, "The deciding factor for life and death in the fight between the Sandaime and Orochimaru is ‘age.’ If only the third were 10 years younger, the outcome could have been different."




Basically saying 10-Years Younger Hiruzen could have killed Orochimaru. It does not say that 10-Years Younger Hiruzen is Prime-Hiruzen. Plus your talking about Kishi who can't keep the time-line straight for shit.

Given the context of the manga it's extremely clear that Prime-Hiruzen is the much younger hiruzen whose face is featured on the Hokage mountain and focused on when Iruka makes his declaration:

​


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 31, 2014)

At a push, Chiyo and Asuma. At the very least Base Kabuto and Zabuza.

Prime Hiruzen has more chakra, and probably a bit more speed too. I will never believe that he was as strong or nearly as strong as Hashirama, but he was probably at least as strong as his students.​​


----------



## Bonly (Mar 31, 2014)

Old Hiruzen: Mei is the first that pops into mind.
Prime Hiruzen: No clue but he'd be near the likes of Hashi


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 31, 2014)

I don't think he could beat Mei Terumi. She can take a fair beating, as we saw in the Madara fight, and with fairly high reactions and large suiton walls/projectiles I fail to see how Hiruzen could do much damage to her. At best he could try to counter her attacks with his own large-scale ninjutsu, but that's going to exhaust him quite quickly.

Let's not forget that Mei has access to Katon and Doton too.​​


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No it doesn't. All the DB does is parrot the manga:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



1. Hiruzen said he did not have enough STRENGTH to pull out the rest of Orochimaru's soul. Here is the real question. What kind of strength is required to seal a soul? It is life force. One gives up one's life force to seal something in the shinagami. Life force is the yang portion of chakra. So, in other words he did not have enough chakra to seal Orochimaru

2. The manga and DB clearly show that 10 years before the attack, "age", "strength" was not an issue for Hiruzen. As such, he was in his prime. 

3. You can't have it both ways. You can't say Kishi can't keep the timeline straight and I am going to ignore it and yet ignore the fact that Kishi can't keep his portrayal of the hokages straight either

4. The manga and DB have NEVER used the word PRIME to describe Hiruzen's strengh. You people have. The manga only says that Hiruzen was old and his chakra was declining. It says further that 10 years before that fight, he would have had enough chakra. NOTHING ABOUT PRIME


----------



## Krippy (Mar 31, 2014)

Maybe Mei.


----------



## The Undying (Mar 31, 2014)

Old Hiruzen could probably take Sasori and perhaps a couple of the current Gokage depending on where you place them. I'd argue he could  take a few of the past Kage too. All individually, of course.

"Prime" Hiruzen is supposedly greater than Hashirama, but even if that's true, I'd give it to him with nothing less than extreme difficulty. Shodai is a fucking monster.


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 31, 2014)

The Undying said:


> Old Hiruzen could probably take Sasori and perhaps a couple of the current Gokage depending on where you place them. All individually, of course.
> 
> "Prime" Hiruzen is supposedly greater than Hashirama, but even if that's true, I'd give it to him with nothing less than extreme difficulty. Shodai is a fucking monster.



prime Hiruzen is not stronger than shodai. Kabuto said that people in this generation who heard of shodai's power said it was a fairy tale like RS. If said people could not believe that a ninja could be as strong as the shodai was said to be strong, that means that they had not witnessed that level of power. However, if Prime Hiruzen was as strong or stronger than Hashirama, people would have no reason to believe that Hashirama's level of power was too good to be true. 

So, it is quite clear that Kishi retconned Hashirama's power level.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Hiruzen said he did not have enough STRENGTH to pull out the rest of Orochimaru's soul. Here is the real question. What kind of strength is required to seal a soul? It is life force. One gives up one's life force to seal something in the shinagami. Life force is the yang portion of chakra. So, in other words he did not have enough chakra to seal Orochimaru


No one is doubting that bruv.



> The manga and DB clearly show that 10 years before the attack, "age", "strength" was not an issue for Hiruzen. As such, he was in his prime.


I'm sorry but your making this up. All the DB says that 10Years ago Hiruzen would have been able to kill Orochimaru; that doesn't mean he was at his best. 



> You can't have it both ways. You can't say Kishi can't keep the timeline straight and I am going to ignore it and yet ignore the fact that Kishi can't keep his portrayal of the hokages straight either


He has kept his portrayal of the Hokages straight; so far. Hiruzen is the only one called the strongest Hokage. Hashirama/Tobirama are called the strongest of their time; their time happened before Prime-Hiruzen's. Minato is called the best shinobi ever; because of his deeds, actions, and potential not his strength; basically he could have grown to become the strongest Hokage, but he died during the Kyuubi-Attack before he could achieve that and therefore remains bellow the likes of Prime-Hiruzen and Hashirama. The Hokages portrayal is not hard to understand if you have good translations.

Now you can say you believe Kishi retecon'd it to Hashirama being the strongest, and your entitled to your opinion, but it is just that an opinion, until Kishi actually has someone state Hashirama is the strongest Hokage.

The time-line on the other hand makes zero sense.



> The manga and DB have NEVER used the word PRIME to describe Hiruzen's strengh. You people have. The manga only says that Hiruzen was old and his chakra was declining. It says further that 10 years before that fight, he would have had enough chakra. NOTHING ABOUT PRIME


Never using the word "Prime" is true; that's just what fans use to refer to the age-range the manga implied Hiruzen was at his strongest. However on the flip side of this, nowhere in the manga does it state, that 10 years ago, Hiruzen was at his strongest or unaffected by age, it just says that he'd be able to kill Orochimaru. 

The only indicator we get of the time in which Hiruzen was at his strongest is picture of the younger-hiruzen featured on the statue in the background when it's stated he was the strongest Hokage. Only other indicator is how Kishi actually draws Hiruzen. He still drew Hiruzen as an old man with some crows feat under his eyes during the night of the Kyuubi-attack, which also implies age may still have been effecting him; not to mention his actual choice to step down from the position of Hokage, also would imply age was starting to catch up with him. 

Plus ultimately even if we disregard these implications for on reason or another, it still ultimately means we can't place the time, which Hiruzen was at his best. So using his performance from the Kyuubi-Attack or how he would perform 10 years younger, still isn't going to support any argument against the statements made.



Senjuclan said:


> prime Hiruzen is not stronger than shodai. Kabuto said that people in this generation who heard of shodai's power said it was a fairy tale like RS. If said people could not believe that a ninja could be as strong as the shodai was said to be strong, that means that they had not witnessed that level of power. However, if Prime Hiruzen was as strong or stronger than Hashirama, people would have no reason to believe that Hashirama's level of power was too good to be true.
> 
> So, it is quite clear that Kishi retconned Hashirama's power level.


This is silly. Kabuto said the people considered Hashirama's powers like a fairy-taile. Of course one would consider generating a forest out of nothing like a fairy-tale, because it is something straight out of a fairy-tale. Hiruzen's strength is not going to make someone believe that shit is true, because Hiruzen strength probably does not come from raw-power, but his wisdom & mastery over thousands of Jutsu. So people may accept that you can become godly strong by mastering thousands of Jutsu, by seeing Hiruzen do so, but at the same time have a hard time fathoming that someone could become that similar level of strength simply due to having overwhelming fairy-tale like raw-power. 

It's like if someone tells you this dude is the strongest MMA fighter in the world because he mastered almost every style of fighting, I'd be like okay that makes sense. But than if someone else tells me another guy is one of the strongest MMA fighters in the world because he can Karate chop a tree in half, I'd be like that is some fairy-tale BS, and not believe it. That doesn't mean the second guy is stronger or more impressive than the first guy, it just means his source of strength is hard to accept, than that of the first guy.

This is all of course assuming that the same people calling Hashirama's strength a fairy-tale witnessed Prime-Hiruzen fight seriously, in the first place.


----------



## ardahanpolat (Mar 31, 2014)

Rikudo , Hiruzen and the First Hokage share the same nickname...
Kami no Shinobi ( God of Shinobi )


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No one is doubting that bruv.
> 
> I'm sorry but your making this up. All the DB says that 10Years ago Hiruzen would have been able to kill Orochimaru; that doesn't mean he was at his best.



You are forgetting WHY! The reason why is because 10 years before the chakra issue he experienced would not have been an issue



Turrin said:


> He has kept his portrayal of the Hokages straight; so far. Hiruzen is the only one called the strongest Hokage. Hashirama/Tobirama are called the strongest of their time; their time happened before Prime-Hiruzen's. Minato is called the best shinobi ever; because of his deeds, actions, and potential not his strength; basically he could have grown to become the strongest Hokage, but he died during the Kyuubi-Attack before he could achieve that and therefore remains bellow the likes of Prime-Hiruzen and Hashirama. The Hokages portrayal is not hard to understand if you have good translations.



You don't seem to read the manga. Kabuto said that Hashirama's power was doubted by those who heard it and that people wrote it off as too good to be true. That means those people could not have witnessed that level of power ever. In other words, Hiruzen at his strongest did not display a power level that would cause anyone to stop doubting the stories about Hashirama's power level



Turrin said:


> Now you can say you believe Kishi retecon'd it to Hashirama being the strongest, and your entitled to your opinion, but it is just that an opinion, until Kishi actually has someone state Hashirama is the strongest Hokage.



It is a simple reading of the manga

Statement 1: Hiruzen is the strongest
Statement 2: Hashirama was so strong no one today believes he was that strong
Fact 1: Hiruzen lived after Hashirama
conclusion: One cannot reconcile statements 1 and 2 if Hiruzen came after Hashirama. One cannot believe a power level to be unachievable if that power level has been surpassed



Turrin said:


> The time-line on the other hand makes zero sense.



Just like Part I statements about the hokages




Turrin said:


> Never using the word "Prime" is true; that's just what fans use to refer to the age-range the manga implied Hiruzen was at his strongest. However on the flip side of this, nowhere in the manga does it state, that 10 years ago, Hiruzen was at his strongest or unaffected by age, it just says that he'd be able to kill Orochimaru.
> 
> The only indicator we get of the time in which Hiruzen was at his strongest is picture of the younger-hiruzen featured on the statue in the background when it's stated he was the strongest Hokage. Only other indicator is how Kishi actually draws Hiruzen. He still drew Hiruzen as an old man with some crows feat under his eyes during the night of the Kyuubi-attack, which also implies age may still have been effecting him; not to mention his actual choice to step down from the position of Hokage, also would imply age was starting to catch up with him.
> 
> Plus ultimately even if we disregard these implications for on reason or another, it still ultimately means we can't place the time, which Hiruzen was at his best. So using his performance from the Kyuubi-Attack or how he would perform 10 years younger, still isn't going to support any argument against the statements made.



Going off of the fact that Kishi retconned the statement about Hiruzen being the strongest hokage, none of this matters. 

However, the fact remains that 10 years before he fought Orochimaru, he was strong enough, was not affected by age and yet Kishi portrayed him as being quite weak.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> You are forgetting WHY! The reason why is because 10 years before the chakra issue he experienced would not have been an issue


I'm not forgetting the why, the why just only applies to that specific opponent and in that specific situation. Nowhere does it say it wasn't an issue entirely.



> You don't seem to read the manga. Kabuto said that Hashirama's power was doubted by those who heard it and that people wrote it off as too good to be true. That means those people could not have witnessed that level of power ever. In other words, Hiruzen at his strongest did not display a power level that would cause anyone to stop doubting the stories about Hashirama's power level


Or those people didn't witness Hiruzen's power. 
Or those people find it easier to accept Hiruzen's path to power, rather than the Hashirama's.



> It is a simple reading of the manga
> 
> Statement 1: Hiruzen is the strongest
> Statement 2: Hashirama was so strong no one today believes he was that strong
> ...


I just easily reconciled it.



> Just like Part I statements about the hokages
> Going off of the fact that Kishi retconned the statement about Hiruzen being the strongest hokage, none of this matters.


Your opinion, which you can't substantiate as a fact



> However, the fact remains that 10 years before he fought Orochimaru, he was strong enough, was not affected by age and yet Kishi portrayed him as being quite weak.


Being able to kill Orochimaru and hold off Kurama is quite weak


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So i'm not going to go off feats, if you want those feat based comparisons I'm sure that many other people in the NBD will more than fulfill that request.
> 
> Old Hiruzen is suppose to be the strongest Gokage:
> 
> ...



Is the latest Hiruzen hype pre or past Rikudou Sennin introduction?

If we take his description as History's strongest wouldn't that include even the likes of RS and Kaguya?

But wouldn't that appear ridiculous?

IMO once Kishi got high on Hashi he gradually decided to take credit away from Hiruzen to build up for the confrontation between Naruto and Sasuke whom are the current generation Hashi and Madara(and the reincarnations of Indra and Ashura).

As I recall Hashi wasn't established as a God of Shinobi level shinobi in any of the databooks and his edo tensei form used by Oro in part 1 was not stated to be worfed till he was brought back at almost full power like 50 chapters ago.

And what about Minato's Konoha's greatest or unrivaled hype? Why didn't Kakashi said that only Naruto can surpass Hiruzen if Hiruzen was the top dog of hokages? Since Naruto wants to be the strongest hokage why did Kakashi limit him to a guy who was supposedly inferior?


----------



## joshhookway (Mar 31, 2014)

He beat Hashirama already


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm not forgetting the why, the why just only applies to that specific opponent and in that specific situation. Nowhere does it say it wasn't an issue entirely.



It applies to the character. 



Turrin said:


> Or those people didn't witness Hiruzen's power.
> Or those people find it easier to accept Hiruzen's path to power, rather than the Hashirama's.



1. The people who don't believe those things are contemporaries of Hiruzen. Nice try
2. Whether they accept his path to power or not does not change the fact that they don't think anyone could be that strong. That's the part you fail to address



Turrin said:


> I just easily reconciled it.



No you did not. You claimed that his contemporaries did not witness his power, which nonsensical or that they just refused to believe Hashirama's PATH to power, which has nothing to do with level of power



Turrin said:


> Your opinion, which you can't substantiate as a fact



Already did and you were unable to prove me wrong. You came up with a nonsensical idea that somehow people in the shinobi world did not witness Hiruzen's power and the equally lolzy retort that they simply choose to not believe Hashirama's path to power even though Kabuto clearly says they thought his power level was a fairy tale not his path to power



Turrin said:


> Being able to kill Orochimaru and hold off Kurama is quite weak



1. Show me where he held off Kurama. I remember the VILLAGe holding off Kurama while Minato could deal with it
2. Quite weak for a kage. Orochimaru was defeated by Sasuke after all


----------



## Mercurial (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So i'm not going to go off feats, if you want those feat based comparisons I'm sure that many other people in the NBD will more than fulfill that request.
> 
> Old Hiruzen is suppose to be the strongest Gokage:
> 
> ...





Old Hiruzen was under part 1 Kakashi's level. And maybe also out of shape part 1 Kakashi I'd say, because the statement is in the 1 st databook and that is before the end of the Chunin Exams Arc, when Kakashi restarted training and pushing himself. Check for scans or translations. 

Old Hiruzen by feats is barely S-rank/kage level. And by hype... Lol. Also Kabuto was speaking about the Hokage in a general argument, not the Hokage talking especially about Hiruzen. Kabuto simply talked about the strength of the Hokage, that is usually the strongest of the Gokage. Hashirama as Hokage was the strongest of the Gokage, Tobirama as Hokage was the strongest of the Gokage, Minato as Hokage was the strongest of the Gokage, young Hiruzen as Hokage was the strongest of the Gokage. Tsunade of course is not but she's a different case.

Also, fanbook mean nothing. And databook stats mean even less, as inconsistent with the actual manga as they are. And especially Lol at the total stat. So Shizune would defeat Gaara... Lol... Sasuke could blitz and totally pressure Deidara inspite the fact they had the same stat in speed.

And Hashirama, Tobirama, or real strong characters like Kakashi, Gai, Obito, Itachi... they shit on "Prime Hiruzen" everyday. Prime Hiruzen is at best on Jiraiya's level.


----------



## StickaStick (Mar 31, 2014)

Old Man Hiruzen -- someone slightly below Part I Oro. Not sure who that might be. Maybe Konan?

Prime Hiruzen -- hard to say with so much ambiguity surrounding his hype's merit as of present day. 

I'm in the boat that believe's his title as strongest Hokage was retconned. When you have the statements of such individuals as Kabuto and Mads (even if Mads wasn't aware of what Prime Hiruzen was capable of I feel Kishi would have made that clear through modifying his remarks appropriately if he wanted to keep the notion that Hiruzen > Hashirama as strongest Hokage canon), conscious decisions such as making Hashirama the one to claim inferiority to Juubito with zero recognition of Hiruzen, and finally Hashirama being Naruto's benchmark its leave little doubt in my mind.

Anyway, I really have no idea who's the strongest person Prime Hiruzen might be able to beat since it's so hard to judge him and all we really have to go are previous statements and his showing against the budda statue.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Is the latest Hiruzen hype pre or past Rikudou Sennin introduction?
> 
> If we take his description as History's strongest wouldn't that include even the likes of RS and Kaguya?


No it wouldn't because they weren't Shinobi. Rikudo preached Ninshuu, which isn't the same thing as what eventually evolved into. Hiruzen is essentially praised as the strongest Shinobi, so that covers everyone, except those that pre-dated the shinobi.



> IMO once Kishi got high on Hashi he gradually decided to take credit away from Hiruzen to build up for the confrontation between Naruto and Sasuke whom are the current generation Hashi and Madara(and the reincarnations of Indra and Ashura).
> 
> As I recall Hashi wasn't established as a God of Shinobi level shinobi in any of the databooks and his edo tensei form used by Oro in part 1 was not stated to be worfed till he was brought back at almost full power like 50 chapters ago.


I don't see anywhere, where Kishi takes credit away from Hiruzen, and gives it Hashirama.

Kishi may have decided to make Hashirama stronger than he originally conceived him to be in Part I, but that doesn't mean he is stronger than Prime-Hiruzen. If Kishi wanted us to see it that way, I feel as if he could have easily made that statement, but he hasn't. And let's also not forget that despite all the Hashirama wanking in recent chapters, Kishi still made 8th-Gate > Hashirama, as per the part I statements, so it's not like Kishi is throwing out Part I shit .



> And what about Minato's Konoha's greatest or unrivaled hype? Why didn't Kakashi said that only Naruto can surpass Hiruzen if Hiruzen was the top dog of hokages? Since Naruto wants to be the strongest hokage why did Kakashi limit him to a guy who was supposedly inferior?


I've explained Minato's hype before so I'll just quote that:


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Minato; The Title of Most Talented*
Minato is indicated many times in the manga to be thee most talented or most skilled Shinobi of all time:





ShounenSuki said:


> _「四代目と比べられりゃ　誰だってキツイだろうーよ　なんせ　あやつは忍としての器は歴代一だ った? 術の才に溢れ　頭脳明晰?人望に満ち　まぁ?ワシ並みに男前だったしのォ」
> "Being compared to the Yondaime would be hard for anyone. Anyhow, that guy's ability as a shinobi was first among all... There was no end to his ability with jutsu. He had a keen mind... Very popular. Well... he was a handsome man, like me."_
> 
> Anyway, as I said in the earlier thread, I would interpret these quotes as saying that the Yondaime was the most talented shinobi ever





Franckie said:


> it's important to note *why* the Yondaime Hogake is known as "歴代" = rekidaiichi = History's best. It deals with his _talent as a shinobi_:
> 
> The original text is "なんせあやつは忍として器は歴代一だった...? -> "nanse ayatsu wa shinobi toshite utsuwa wa rekidaiichi datta...". A literal translation of that would be "Afterall, his ability/caliber/capacity as a shinobi was number one in history".
> 
> To put it simply, the reason Minato is known as the "greatest" is because _he possessed the potential to become the strongest_.



*Jiraiya[2]:
Nah... Minato had the sort of talent you only find once in a decade. / We haven't had another genius like him since. // He was a kind man, and yet his spirit was incredible. // He became the Fourth in the blink of an eye... //*

Suffice it to say the manga indicates that Minato possessed the greatest amount of Talent in the Shinobi Arts that the Naruto world has ever seen and there hasn't been a Shinobi since Minato who has possessed the potential to become a finer Shinobi than Minato. 

This can be seen in Minato's skill with mastering and creating Ninjutsu, how strong he was at such a young age, and the fact that he gave up his life willingly to protect the village and pass on his WOF to the next generation of Shinobi.

Thus Minato is the Hokage that is represented as a benchmark for Naruto not in terms of Strength, but in terms of Potential. Naruto has to surpass Minato by showing that he has more Talent for the Shinobi Way of Life and skills than Minato possessed, which will also prove that his Potential surpasses Minato's as well.

This is a tall order for Naruto to fill and the Author seems to indicate that its still an ongoing goal for Naruto:





Minato's hype is about potential and being the best example of a Shinobi. Naruto has to surpass Minato's potential. However Minato never achieved his true level, because he died in the Kyuubi-attack, so Naruto is more chasing the ghost of his potential; I.e. the ghost of someone who could have become the destined child and the most powerful Hokage, etc... but never did.

It's the difference between one being 歴代" = rekidaiichi = History's best [Minato] and the other being  "歴代最強" = saikyou rekidai = History's strongest [Hiruzen]


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> It applies to the character.


Yeah, the character being Orochimaru. 



> 1. The people who don't believe those things are contemporaries of Hiruzen. Nice try
> 2. Whether they accept his path to power or not does not change the fact that they don't think anyone could be that strong. That's the part you fail to address


1. That is meaningless, Hashirama's contemporaries thought Kakuzu pre-Jingo at least had a chance of assassinating him. How nonsensical is that shit, given Hashirama's strength.  Tsunade was also alive at the same time as Hashirama and didn't have any conception of his power; and that's her own grandfather. The fact of the matter is whether people lived in the same time as Hiruzen or Hashirama, if they didn't see them fight all out or even close to that, they aren't going to know the depths of these shinobi's strength. In case of Shinobi that stronger there aren't going to be many chances for a person to see that strength. Furthermore the very fact that these people knew of Hashirama's strength, but considered it fairy-tale like, demonstrates that their were people telling them about Hashirama's strength and aware of it, they just didn't believe it. 

2. Please bring a good translation of that statement, than I can address it's context fully.



> 1. Show me where he held off Kurama. I remember the VILLAGe holding off Kurama while Minato could deal with it
> 2. Quite weak for a kage. Orochimaru was defeated by Sasuke after all


Hiruzen was part of that village and was the one leading the charge; hence he held of Kurama.

Orochimaru lost to Sasuke when he was weakened, armless, and not willing to go for the kill; even Sasuke accepts he'd have never defeated Orochimaru otherwise.


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No it wouldn't because they weren't Shinobi. Rikudo preached Ninshuu, which isn't the same thing as what eventually evolved into. Hiruzen is essentially praised as the strongest Shinobi, so that covers everyone, except those that pre-dated the shinobi.
> 
> 
> I don't see anywhere, where Kishi takes credit away from Hiruzen, and gives it Hashirama.
> ...



Madara said that Kaguya used chakra as a weapon. *here* 

As a weapon= hardly the same way ninshu was used. Besides Kaguya used ninjutsu before her son decided to create ninshu
And didn't RS and his brother use ninjutsu against Juubi? Or did they beat him by using ninshu- linking their chakras so that they can understand each other? But wouldn't the Juubi be a nice guy by now if that was the case?

In fact even in Naruto's mind we can see those Black Jinton spheres floating around RS. Black Jinton spheres made of chakra...like those of Juubito and Juudara.

And didn't we saw Indra and Ashura use ninjutsu too? Prime Hiruzen better than all of them?

????

Also regarding Hashi and 8th Gate Gai it would be hardly surprising if Hashi could damage Juudara even more than Gai did if he used Shinsenjuu and had assistance from Minato, Kakashi and Gaara. All Madara did was just limiting himself to use Black Jinton for attack and defense instead of relying on bigger stuff like bijuudamas or a JJ powered PS. With Gai's speed area of effect jutsus are a much better choice.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Madara said that Kaguya used chakra as a weapon. *Not only that but it was shown that even after taking an attack like that, the cloaks still didn't sustain enough damage to disappear*
> 
> As a weapon= hardly the same way ninshu was used. Besides Kaguya used ninjutsu before her son decided to create ninshu
> And didn't RS and his brother use ninjutsu against Juubi? Or did they beat him by using ninshu- linking their chakras so that they can understand each other? But wouldn't the Juubi be a nice guy by now if that was the case?
> ...


It's not that they didn't use techniques and chakra, it's that they aren't considered Shinobi, because Shinobi wasn't a thing back then. It's like if I say michael Jordon is the best basket ball player of all time and than later we find out their was some aztec dude that was absolutely ridiculous at whatever game it was they played, which resembled basket ball [forget the name], it's not like my statement that michael jordon was the best basket ball player of all time is wrong, it just means that there was someone else with a similar skill-set that could have beaten michael jordon without actually being a basket ball player himself.



> Also regarding Hashi and 8th Gate Gai it would be hardly surprising if Hashi could damage Juudara even more than Gai did if he used Shinsenjuu and had assistance from Minato, Kakashi and Gaara. All Madara did was just limiting himself to use Black Jinton for attack and defense instead of relying on bigger stuff like bijuudamas or a JJ powered PS. With Gai's speed area of effect jutsus are a much better choice.


Again I don't see why we should go out of our way to contest statements. 8th-Gate Gai was said to surpass the Hokages, now we are seeing him take one someone stronger than Hashirama and doing extremely well. Why can't we than just accept the statement is true, instead of trying to back peddle and justify it, when the author's intent is very clear.



The Format said:


> I'm in the boat that believe's his title as strongest Hokage was retconned. When you have the statements of such individuals as Kabuto and Mads (even if Mads wasn't aware of what Prime Hiruzen was capable of I feel Kishi would have made that clear through modifying his remarks appropriately if he wanted to keep the notion that Hiruzen > Hashirama as strongest Hokage canon),.


Even if Madara was aware of Prime-Hiruzen's strength, I doubt he'd admit IC he's stronger than Hashirama, as Hashirama is his obsession. The only way to get through to someone like that would be to beat it into him, like Gai is currently doing in 8th-Gate. Think of Madara as a fan-boy, only way the fan-boy is going to admit someone is better than their fav, is if it's directly shown to them. So if Prime-Hiruzen was say slightly stronger than Hashirama, I have no doubt that Madara would still pile the same praises on Hashirama. That is of course, if he was aware of Prime-Hiruzen's strength.



> conscious decisions such as making Hashirama the one to claim inferiority to Juubito with zero recognition of Hiruzen


Hiruzen was like yeah he is stronger than you. What do you expect him to say beyond that? Despite whatever strength Hiruzen held in his Prime, as Edos Hashirama is the strongest.



> and finally Hashirama being Naruto's benchmark its leave little doubt in my mind.


The benchmark doesn't make someone the strongest. Minato was a more overt benchmark than Hashirama for most the manga, but Hashirama ended up stronger. Additionally Gai isn't even a benchmark and he can pull out power beyond Hashirama in 8th-Gate.


----------



## Cognitios (Mar 31, 2014)

> The benchmark doesn't make someone the strongest. Minato was a more overt benchmark than Hashirama for most the manga, but Hashirama ended up stronger. Additionally Gai isn't even a benchmark and he can pull out power beyond Hashirama in 8th-Gate.


Naruto's goal is to become the strongest Hokage, and surpass all other Hokage.
This is why his first benchmark was to surpass his father, Minato, also a hokage.
His next benchmark is to surpass the strongest Hokage, which so far has been indicated by Kishi to be Hashirama. Unless there is another arc where Naruto surpasses Hiruzen I think that Hashirama is the top.

Naruto's benchmark is not Gai because that is Lee's goal. To become the strongest Taijutsu master, which he needs to surpass Gai to do.


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It's not that they didn't use techniques and chakra, it's that they aren't considered Shinobi, because Shinobi wasn't a thing back then. It's like if I say michael Jordon is the best basket ball player of all time and than later we find out their was some aztec dude that was absolutely ridiculous at whatever game it was they played, which resembled basket ball [forget the name], it's not like my statement that michael jordon was the best basket ball player of all time is wrong, it just means that there was someone else with a similar skill-set that could have beaten michael jordon without actually being a basket ball player himself.
> 
> 
> Again I don't see why we should go out of our way to contest statements. 8th-Gate Gai was said to surpass the Hokages, now we are seeing him take one someone stronger than Hashirama and doing extremely well. Why can't we than just accept the statement is true, instead of trying to back peddle and justify it, when the author's intent is very clear.
> ...



Then when the term "ninja" was established?
*Not only that but it was shown that even after taking an attack like that, the cloaks still didn't sustain enough damage to disappear*
As Oro says a Shinobi is a warrior who uses ninjutsu. Kaguya used ninjutsu, RS and his brother also did...at least against Juubi, and so did Indra and Ashura.

Besides the Hiruzen hype that you had shown does not always refer to Hiruzen as the greatest ninja but as history's greatest without limiting it to just "ninja".

Indra and Ashura at the very least had shown something that is basically what Naruto and Madara had shown though probably at a much higher level but from the looks and purpose it definitely is ninjutsu.

If the "baseball" that the Aztec guy used differed in at least a few aspects from the one Micheal Jordan used then the Aztec dude would be a specialist of a whole different sport...and not just in name. It would be more like comparing Jordan to Cristiano Ronaldo.

The Black Jinton that we see now from RS, "BM" from Ashura and PS from Indra are so similar though as to be considered exactly the same. The only "difference" might be in the level of power between the likes of Indra and Madara to put up an example.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Naruto's goal is to become the strongest Hokage, and surpass all other Hokage.
> This is why his first benchmark was to surpass his father, Minato, also a hokage.
> His next benchmark is to surpass the strongest Hokage, which so far has been indicated by Kishi to be Hashirama. Unless there is another arc where Naruto surpasses Hiruzen I think that Hashirama is the top.
> 
> Naruto's benchmark is not Gai because that is Lee's goal. To become the strongest Taijutsu master, which he needs to surpass Gai to do.


I wrote detailed thread once about how the Hokages related to Naruto's goals:


It's a good read and clears up a-lot of the confusion on the Hokages strength, titles, and how Naruto needs to surpass them. Basically Naruto needs to achieve 3 titles:

1. The Title of Most Talented [or Potential] - Minato
2. The Title of Most Exemplary - Hashirama [& to a less extent Tobirama]
3. The Title of Strongest - Hiruzen

When he defeats the Final Villain and succeeds in bring peace to the world he'll have achieved all 3. It won't happen before than ether, it will happen all at once. Which is why there isn't a need for another arc, when Naruto defeats the final villain he's prove he surpassed Prime-Hiruzen as the strongest Hokage and surpassed his father in terms of potential; when he succeeds in bringing peace he'll have surpassed Hashirama [& Tobirama] in terms of going down the right path.


----------



## ? (Mar 31, 2014)

No version of Hiruzen is touching Hashirama. I can't believe people still cling to that obviously retconned shit from part 1. 


Prime Hiruzen = Hiruzen from Kurama flashback. So he's probably on the same level as the Gokage, or at best a little stronger.


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> You have no evidence.



The evidence is in the text. AGE made a difference. 10 years prior, age would not be an issue



Turrin said:


> Dude even thinking Kakuzu can stealth kill Hashirama is underrating Hashirama capabilities extensively; you know that. You also totally ignored the point about Tsunade.



1. The fact that people overrated Kakuzu says more about them than it does Hashirama
2. I ignored the point about Tsunade because it only further proves my point. Even Tsunade could not believe his power level. She had witnessed Hiruzen and still could not believe the level of Madara/Hashirama power. 



Turrin said:


> Yes the people who heard of it, didn't believe. Now please prove those same people saw Hiruzen fight all out or heard about it and didn't think it was just as much of a fairy tale as Hashirama's.



Simple. Kabuto said they considered it a fairy tale LIKE RIKUDOU SENNIN not like Hiruzen



Turrin said:


> No I don't have the Viz of the recent chapters and i'm not going to go out of my way to try and find that statement, when your point is already rendered moot, by the fact that you have no evidence people weren't saying the same shit about Prime-Hiruzen or that these people calling Hashirama a fairy tale saw Prime-Hiruzen full strength.



I have evidence. Kabuto said people said two people were a fairy tale, RS and Hashirama



Turrin said:


> They all held off Kurama; that's my point. Though it is very clear that Hiruzen was doing the most.



1. If it is evident, show me such evidence
2. It goes to show that dude was weak sauce even when age was not an issue for him. Plenty of shinobi died that night



Turrin said:


> No the point is you said someone who can kill Orochimaru is quite weak, which makes zero sense. Orochimaru, especially with Edo-Tensei prepped, is one of the strongest shinobi in the manga. You can't call someone who could kill him quite weak, without ether being proactively a troll or completely misinformed about the manga-cannon.



Relative to other kages, yes quite weak. Orochimaru plays around too much


----------



## StickaStick (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Even if Madara was aware of Prime-Hiruzen's strength, I doubt he'd admit IC he's stronger than Hashirama, as Hashirama is his obsession. The only way to get through to someone like that would be to beat it into him, like Gai is currently doing in 8th-Gate. Think of Madara as a fan-boy, only way the fan-boy is going to admit someone is better than their fav, is if it's directly shown to them. So if Prime-Hiruzen was say slightly stronger than Hashirama, I have no doubt that Madara would still pile the same praises on Hashirama. That is of course, if he was aware of Prime-Hiruzen's strength.


Mads doesn't have to outright state that Hiruzen is stronger--this can be accomplished via something as simple as stating that Hashirama was the only one during_ his time_ that could challenge him. Too lazy to look for the scans but in all of Mads' praise of Hashirama he infers him to be the only one able to stop him period (which would make sense since Juubi Jins had yet to enter the fray).  



Turrin said:


> Hiruzen was like yeah he is stronger than you. What do you expect him to say beyond that? Despite whatever strength Hiruzen held in his Prime, as Edos Hashirama is the strongest.


That's just it, I expect _something_. Anything at all. How about having Edo Hiruzen show a bit of smirk after Hashirama makes the comment? Instead throughout the entire War-Arc we've been served the Hashirama cool-aid with virtually zero indication to imply that Hiruzen might still be stronger.  



Turrin said:


> The benchmark doesn't make someone the strongest. Minato was a more overt benchmark than Hashirama for most the manga, but Hashirama ended up stronger. Additionally Gai isn't even a benchmark and he can pull out power beyond Hashirama in 8th-Gate.


Well of course Minato was a more overt benchmark given their similarities and relationship and the fact that Hashirama was just recently, relatively speaking, introduced to the battle field. For me his relevance as a benchmark to Naruto is clearly about power and status as strongest Hokage. Unless when Naruto finally does reach strongest Hokage status you expect some reference to Hiruzen, which I surely don't.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Mar 31, 2014)

Prime Hiruzen's stronger than the Hiruzen we debate with in the NBD, be it Hiruzen or Edo Hiruzen.

But I don't think he was stronger than Hashirama.

The author retconned Hiruzen's strength imo. 

He may have envisioned the third being the strongest hokage at one point, there's no denying the evidence for that, but I honestly don't believe Kishi at this point still believes Hiruzen at prime was more powerful than Hashirama.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> The evidence is in the text. AGE made a difference. 10 years prior, age would not be an issue


I don't know why I need to explain this, but here is an example:

Let's say Orochi is a 15 & Part I Hiruzen is 14. Now minus 10 years, and Hiruzen might be a 16 allowing age to not be an issue in killing Orochi. However "Prime" Hiruzen could still be a 20. 



> The fact that people overrated Kakuzu says more about them than it does Hashirama


This in no way invalidates the fact that the Kakuzu example demonstrates a very clear instance where people from the same era of as Hashirama were unaware of his true power. Yet your expecting everyone to be aware of Hiruzen's power in his era. It's unfair double standard your holding Hiruzen too.



> I ignored the point about Tsunade because it only further proves my point. Even Tsunade could not believe his power level. She had witnessed Hiruzen and still could not believe the level of Madara/Hashirama power.


And still you dodge around the point that, if even Hashirama's own grand-daughter was unaware of his full power, it again demonstrates that despite being around in his era, many people were ignorant of Hashirama's power. Yet once again your expecting everyone to be aware of Hiruzen's power --- double standard.



> Simple. Kabuto said they considered it a fairy tale LIKE RIKUDOU SENNIN not like Hiruzen


By this logic Hashirama > Kaguya, Indra, Ashura, and Rikudo's brother, because Kabuto only cited Rikudo. 



> 1. If it is evident, show me such evidence


Wait your doubting that he was leading the charge.



> It goes to show that dude was weak sauce even when age was not an issue for him. Plenty of shinobi died that night


Please stop trolling or i'm not going to bother with you, anymore, because it's completely disingenuous to say that someone struggles with 100% Kurama is weak sauce.



> Relative to other kages, yes quite weak. Orochimaru plays around too much


What Kages? The only ones you could make an argument for someone who can kill Orochimaru looking weak in comparison to are Edo-Minato and Hashirama. That 2 out 20+ Kages. 



The Format said:


> Mads doesn't have to outright state that Hiruzen is stronger--this can be accomplished via something as simple as stating that Hashirama was the only one during_ his time_ that could challenge him. Too lazy to look for the scans but in all of Mads' praise of Hashirama he infers him to be the only one able to stop him period (which would make sense since Juubi Jins had yet to enter the fray).


Than this begs the question of why we would take clearly incorrect boasts seriously. As we know there were combos of alliance shinobi [or 8th-Gate Gai] who could have stopped Edo-Madara. 

But honestly I took all the Hashirama is the only one who could stop Madara business, as a NaruXSasuke thing, where it's like the only one who could stop Madara is his rival Hashirama, just like Naruto is the only one who can stop Sasuke his rival; because it takes something beyond strength to put a true end to their struggle, it takes the heart of the cards, friend-ship is magic, bullshit..... despite the fact that in both cases there are many times that other shinobi could have stopped them.



> That's just it, I expect something. Anything at all. How about having Edo Hiruzen show a bit of smirk after Hashirama makes the comment? Instead throughout the entire War-Arc we've been served the Hashirama cool-aid with virtually zero indication to imply that Hiruzen might still be stronger.


Why would Hiruzen take the time to boast, when everyones lives are on the line and he can no longer utilize his Prime-power anyway. I'd agree with you if Hiruzen was acting this way and was brought back in his Prime, but the fact that he is brought back as an Old-man; he'd just be a dick if he acted any differently despite not being able to fight at full power.



> Well of course Minato was a more overt benchmark given their similarities and relationship and the fact that Hashirama was just recently, relatively speaking, introduced to the battle field. For me his relevance as a benchmark to Naruto is clearly about power and status as strongest Hokage. Unless when Naruto finally does reach strongest Hokage status you expect some reference to Hiruzen, which I surely don't.


I expect a holistic statement, like Naruto has surpassed all the former Hokages or Naruto is now the strongest Hokage; something along those lines. I doubt we'll ever get a statement where Naruto is specifically stated to be stronger than each individual Hokage.


Edit: I'd also like to point out that Rikudo-Sennin's design is based on Hiruzen's original design from chapter 0, and with all the reincarnation talk, it would not shock me at all if Hiruzen was Rikudo's reincarnation.


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I don't know why I need to explain this, but here is an example:
> 
> Let's say Orochi is a 15 & Part I Hiruzen is 14. Now minus 10 years, and Hiruzen might be a 16 allowing age to not be an issue in killing Orochi. However "Prime" Hiruzen could still be a 20.



The comments about age were made more than once during that fight. They were made in regards to his overall chakra level. The ANBU saying he can no loger use kage bunshin. Orochimaru saying that even Hiruzen was now affected by age. 

Taking all of this into consideration, it is quite clear that age was a problem in general not in particular regarding only Orochimaru. His inability to use kage bunshin, Hiruzen finding Enma heavy all have to do with age in general and Orochimaru's comments about his inability to knead enough chakra to kill him too have to do with chakra and age not their respective power levels



Turrin said:


> This in no way invalidates the fact that the Kakuzu example demonstrates a very clear instance where people from the same era of as Hashirama were unaware of his true power. Yet your expecting everyone to be aware of Hiruzen's power in his era. It's unfair double standard your holding Hiruzen too.



It does not indicate what you think. It indicates that people of that era thought that Kakuzu as an assassin could take Hashirama's life. Assassination is not about power. I have told you this already



Turrin said:


> And still you dodge around the point that, if even Hashirama's own grand-daughter was unaware of his full power, it again demonstrates that despite being around in his era, many people were ignorant of Hashirama's power. Yet once again your expecting everyone to be aware of Hiruzen's power --- double standard.



No. I addressed the point head on. People cannot wrap their heads around his power level. 



Turrin said:


> By this logic Hashirama > Kaguya, Indra, Ashura, and Rikudo's brother, because Kabuto only cited Rikudo.





Good one. Kabuto did not even compare Hashirama to RS let alone to any of those people. He simply mentioned people whose strength was considered a fairy tale. 



Turrin said:


> Wait your doubting that he was leading the charge.





You are funny. Leading the charge and doing the most is two different things. You said you have evidence that he did the most. Please share it



Turrin said:


> Please stop trolling or i'm not going to bother with you, anymore, because it's completely disingenuous to say that someone struggles with 100% Kurama is weak sauce.



1. You want to stop because you know your argument is BS and weak sauce. 
2. Someone who has the help of an entire village and yet loses an untold number of comrades against the kyuubi is weak sauce when it somes to top tier. 



Turrin said:


> What Kages? The only ones you could make an argument for someone who can kill Orochimaru looking weak in comparison to are Edo-Minato and Hashirama. That 2 out 20+ Kages.



I think MANY people can kill weak Orochimaru. I don't want to get into it to avoid a tangent but if you insist, I will give you my list


----------



## StickaStick (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Than this begs the question of why we would take clearly incorrect boasts seriously. As we know there were combos of alliance shinobi [or 8th-Gate Gai] who could have stopped Edo-Madara.
> 
> But honestly I took all the Hashirama is the only one who could stop Madara business, as a NaruXSasuke thing, where it's like the only one who could stop Madara is his rival Hashirama, just like Naruto is the only one who can stop Sasuke his rival; because it takes something beyond strength to put a true end to their struggle, it takes the heart of the cards, friend-ship is magic, bullshit..... despite the fact that in both cases there are many times that other shinobi could have stopped them.
> 
> ...


What it comes down to than is why hasn't Kishi given any indication whatsoever to lead his readers to believe that Hiruzen > Hashirama still in terms of strongest Hokage? We can find convenient reasons such as he didn't want Hiruzen to look like a dick or Mads is focused on Hashirama and not concerned with Hiruzen, but then why haven't panels been added in some fashion to provide positive proof or reaffirmation the aforementioned might still be the case? In contrast, we've been given plenty of Hashirama wank throughout this arc to support the retcon. 

Also I read you response about Kabuto's comments and IDK. Kishi made the conscious decision to label Hashirama's power like a fairy tale and the same courtesy was not extended to Hiruzen. 

However I'll admit Hiruzen being RS reincarnated would certainly be a start lol


----------



## Lawrence777 (Mar 31, 2014)

Kishi also used Hashirama as the standard of power in general. 

Kishi would say general things such as "Listen everyone... This man.. is stronger than _me_"-Hashi. So there were more statements than just HashixMads going on that hyped Hashi as the strongest.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> The comments about age were made more than once during that fight. They were made in regards to his overall chakra level. The ANBU saying he can no loger use kage bunshin. Orochimaru saying that even Hiruzen was now affected by age.
> 
> Taking all of this into consideration, it is quite clear that age was a problem in general not in particular regarding only Orochimaru. His inability to use kage bunshin, Hiruzen finding Enma heavy all have to do with age in general and Orochimaru's comments about his inability to knead enough chakra to kill him too have to do with chakra and age not their respective power levels


Age was a problem in general, I never doubted that. What i'm saying is that nothing says age stopped being a problem in general 10 years ago. All the DB/Manga says is that 10 years ago Hiruzen can kill Orochimaru. 

Again Age could have - 30  from his Prime Strength in part I, 10 years ago it could have only -  25, allowing him the strength to kill Orochimaru, but it still would have been -25. 



> It does not indicate what you think. It indicates that people of that era thought that Kakuzu as an assassin could take Hashirama's life. Assassination is not about power. I have told you this already


First off no one even said Kakuzu was going to use cloak and daggers to kill Hashirama; assassinate can mean many things. And in-fact the manga implies Kakuzu did try to fight Hashirama straight up. 

Second even if someone did use cloak and daggers tactics, they'd still need to be incredibly stronger to succeed in killing Hashirama; Kakuzu pre-Jingo is a far cry from that. 



> No. I addressed the point head on. People cannot wrap their heads around his power level.


Okay so people from Hashirama's era, didn't fully understand Hashirama's full power. So just being from someone's era doesn't mean you will grasp someone full power. Hence your point is moot.



> Good one. Kabuto did not even compare Hashirama to RS let alone to any of those people. He simply mentioned people whose strength was considered a fairy tale.


What the fuck dude, your whole point was that Kabuto referenced Rikudo-Sennin not Hiruzen, hence Hiruzen being weaker. By that same logic since Kabuto didn't reference any of those people they are all weaker than Hashirama.



> You are funny. Leading the charge and doing the most is two different things. You said you have evidence that he did the most. Please share it


The evidence is that he was leading the charge, the rest is common-sense.



> Someone who has the help of an entire village and yet loses an untold number of comrades against the kyuubi is weak sauce when it somes to top tier.


Again you keep changing around your point. First you say it's weak sauce in general, now you say it's weak sauce in comparison to the top tier. Two different points. The former is trollish, the latter is true, but Hashirama himself is also weak sauce compared to Top-Tier, I.E. Kaguya level.



> I think MANY people can kill weak Orochimaru. I don't want to get into it to avoid a tangent but if you insist, I will give you my list


Can kill is different than being beyond Orochimaru's level. Thee only Kages who are well beyond Orochimaru's level that we've seen are Hashirama and Edo Minato. Nothing else is substantiated by the manga.



The Format said:


> What it comes down to than is why hasn't Kishi given any indication whatsoever to lead his readers to believe that Hiruzen > Hashirama still in terms of strongest Hokage? l


Kishi has given us more statements of Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama, than he's given statements for any other character comparison in the manga.  If you want to disregard these statements, for whatever reason, than that's up to you, but don't ask me where the statements are, because that's ridiculous.



> We can find convenient reasons such as he didn't want Hiruzen to look like a dick or Mads is focused on Hashirama and not concerned with Hiruzen, but then why haven't panels been added in some fashion to provide positive proof or reaffirmation the aforementioned might still be the case?


The statement about 8th-Gate Gai being stronger than Hashirama was made about the same time as Prime-Hiruzen stronger than Hashirama, and it took until last chapter for Kishimoto to address it again. To me the argument of why hasn't Kishi stated it again, since the last time he stated it, is therefore not all that valid. I do understand the fact that it would be nice if he stated it again or wanting re-confirmation though, so I can see where your coming from, but I hope you can also see where I'm coming from as well.



> Also I read you response about Kabuto's comments and IDK. Kishi made the conscious decision to label Hashirama's power like a fairy tale and the same courtesy was not extended to Hiruzen.


The same courtesy was not extended to Kaguya, does that mean Rikudo/Hashirama stronger than Kaguya?



> However I'll admit Hiruzen being RS reincarnated would certainly be a start lo[


Yup, make it happen Kishi.



Lawrence777 said:


> Kishi also used Hashirama as the standard of power in general.
> 
> Kishi would say general things such as "Listen everyone... This man.. is stronger than _me_"-Hashi. So there were more statements than just HashixMads going on that hyped Hashi as the strongest.


Of course Hashi was the standard of the Hokages power as Edo Hashi is stronger than Edo Hiruzen, since Edo Hiruzen was brought back as an old man.


----------



## Van Konzen (Mar 31, 2014)

Ok i'l join the fray.. 

Old man Hiruzen can beat Part 1 Kakashi..

Prime Hiruzen --- This is really tough and above our imagination until Kishi show us 
this version of Hiruzen.. if going by the hype, Prime Hiruzen beats any Kage..



and I am sticking to this manga canon..



until Kishi show us what the real Prime Hiruzen was and/or just a a statement of a CLEAR retcon that says Hashirama was the strongest Hokage of all time,
coz there havent been any of that.. deal with it.. there's still no retcon with it..

Hashirama could pull worldly feat that would shatter anyones ass  but Kishi could still pull anything that would make your brain dry to stick with his part 1statements..
and Hashirama gaining the title of Shinobi no Kami doesnt change the canon of Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage in history.. deal the fuck with it.


----------



## Weapon (Mar 31, 2014)

Stab in the dark because it's hard to pin point him.

1. = Sasori BL statistically overall > All Gokage Individually.
2. = Hashirama statistically overall, can't beat him or RT / EMS Madara 1on1 but can take the likes of DSM Nagato and Current Orochimaru [w/ Knowledge Medium - High Diff]


----------



## J★J♥ (Apr 1, 2014)

Look at the statue, Hiruzen was so old his eyebrows fellout


----------



## ARGUS (Apr 1, 2014)

old hiruzen - kakuzu 
prime hiruzen - juubito lelllll


----------



## Mithos (Apr 1, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I don't think he could beat Mei Terumi. She can take a fair beating, as we saw in the Madara fight, and with fairly high reactions and large suiton walls/projectiles I fail to see how Hiruzen could do much damage to her. At best he could try to counter her attacks with his own large-scale ninjutsu, but that's going to exhaust him quite quickly.
> 
> Let's not forget that Mei has access to Katon and Doton too.​​



I disagree here. 

I don't see Mei's ninjutsu as being on a higher level than Hiruzen's since Hiruzen countered 5 jutsu from the Buddha at once. Hiruzen has the advantage of having 2 more elements at his disposal as well; his insane hype as "The Professor" also gives me reason to believe he would counter her elemental ninjutsu while having jutsu she can't counter - especially because she has some elemental weak spots.   

I think people put too much stalk into Hiruzen's poor stamina to be honest. We've seen that stamina has increased along with power inflation in the manga so I really doubt Hiruzen is going to exhaust himself early on. I don't see Old Hiruzen running out of stamina unless he's fighting an opponent that can make it a long battle of attrition - which Mei can't really do. 

Even Old Hiruzen's hype as the strongest of the Gokage during his reign should put him above Mei.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 1, 2014)

By hype, old hiruzen is stronger than any of the gokage and that statement hasn't been retconned, but has also been verified by his performance against shinsu senjuu.

Not really sure about his prime self.  He's not stronger than Hashirama considering the whole 'god of shinobi' title was retconned and given to hashi.  I'd say he could be above Tobirama considering he not only stated *'im the best of all of us'* while in the presence of Tobirama, but also states that 'I won't die' which at least makes it seem his chances of survival are better than Tobirama's in that situation.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> By hype, old hiruzen is stronger than any of the gokage and that statement hasn't been retconned, but has also been verified by his performance against shinsu senjuu.
> 
> Not really sure about his prime self.  He's not stronger than Hashirama considering the whole 'god of shinobi' title was retconned and given to hashi.  I'd say he could be above Tobirama considering he not only stated *'im the best of all of us'* while in the presence of Tobirama, but also states that 'I won't die' which at least makes it seem his chances of survival are better than Tobirama's in that situation.


The god of shinobi title wasn't retecon'd. In the good translation it's always been translated as "a" shinobi god/god of shinobi:

Orochimaru: My, my, how we've aged. I've never seen you struggling like this... Heh heh heh heh...
Sandaime: What's... so funny...?
Orochimaru: It's so pitiful... That even you, who has been hailed as a shinobi god, are vulnerable to the passage of time...

Suigetsu: "That's... The first Hokage...? The real Hashirama who's been touted as a god of shinobi...?"
Suigetsu: (He's not quite... What I expected of a god of shinobi...
How do you put it... Um...)

The wording specifically implies that there is more than one.


----------



## Reznor (Apr 1, 2014)

> The wording specifically implies that there is more than one.


 In Part 1, they said that Sarutobi surpassed the previous Hokage.
Showing him beating both then affirmed that point.

The universally understood truth that Hashirama > all didn't seem to be known to the ANBU watching the fight (or else they had enough knowledge of Edo Tensei to know that the Edos were weaker, and it was so obvious, noone felt the need to say anything about it.)


----------



## Weapon (Apr 1, 2014)

Reznor said:


> In Part 1, they said that Sarutobi surpassed the previous Hokage.
> Showing him beating both then affirmed that point.
> 
> The universally understood truth that Hashirama > all didn't seem to be known to the ANBU watching the fight (or else they had enough knowledge of Edo Tensei to know that the Edos were weaker, and it was so obvious, noone felt the need to say anything about it.)



This can be supported by the fact that they grew up in a time where Hashirama wasn't alive and Hiruzen was in charge and the only one they knew as a true leader. The way it's talked about how Hiruzen surpassed First and Second I think is plausible in a sense. 

I'm going to keep this short and share what I think; There's too much to talk and theorize about Hiruzen's Prime. I'd say, he's a true genius overall and took the best traits from both Hashirama and Tobirama who were his teachers. On top of his arsenal and the five elements thing. I personally don't think he could beat Hashirama 1 on 1 but doesn't mean he isn't considered better.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 1, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> I disagree here.
> 
> I don't see Mei's ninjutsu as being on a higher level than Hiruzen's since Hiruzen countered 5 jutsu from the Buddha at once. Hiruzen has the advantage of having 2 more elements at his disposal as well; his insane hype as "The Professor" also gives me reason to believe he would counter her elemental ninjutsu while having jutsu she can't counter - especially because she has some elemental weak spots.
> 
> ...



Stamina has been increased among Part II characters, but Hiruzen is ultimately a Part I character, and so I don't see why his stamina would increase dramatically even with power inflation. Hiruzen was actually cited on multiple instances for having decreased chakra reserves, and he has a 3 for stamina in the Databook, which is just above average. Unless that is outright ret-conned, I don't think much will change.

If we actually examine what he did against Orochimaru - create a couple of Kage Bunshin, use a generic doton, katon, summon Enma, and participate in a few taijutsu exchanges before starting to hit the sack, it would be fairly reasonable to say that he cannot perform those massive elemental blasts repeatedly as he did against Shinsuusenju, especially not with four Kage Bunshin dividing up his chakra.

Hiruzen can maybe counter her suiton with raiton to shock her, or ambush her with a surprise elongated-staff swipe, but I don't believe he'll actually be able to kill her.

Mei on the other hand can spew an invisible mist across the arena, fire huge water dragons repeatedly, and even with less elemental coverage than him, she can still counter almost everything he has. She has suiton to stop his katon, earth to stop his suiton (though a big enough suiton of her own could counteract it) and katon to combat his fuuton. Raiton is her biggest worry but I don't think it can kill her when she can reduce the damage it inflicts with earth walls/katon flames/suiton projectiles. On the other hand, Mei's reserves are enough to outlast Hiruzen quite quickly and, if she gets close enough to him, melt him with lava or acid.

I can see situations where Hiruzen might win but I generally find Mei to be stronger.​​


----------



## Trojan (Apr 1, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> By hype, old hiruzen is stronger than any of the gokage and that statement hasn't been retconned, but has also been verified by his performance against shinsu senjuu.
> 
> Not really sure about his prime self.  He's not stronger than Hashirama considering the whole 'god of shinobi' title was retconned and given to hashi.  I'd say he could be above Tobirama considering he not only stated *'im the best of all of us'* while in the presence of Tobirama, but also states that 'I won't die' which at least makes it seem his chances of survival are better than Tobirama's in that situation.



even though I disagree with what you said about the title (unless you think Hashirama is also stronger than Hagoromo because the later also got retconed for Hashirama?), but the main point is the second part. @.@

about Hiruzen & Tobirama


He said that he is the most accomplished. Mmm, can that means that he's the best? @.@
even though being the best does not really mean being the strongest though.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

Reznor said:


> In Part 1, they said that Sarutobi surpassed the previous Hokage.
> Showing him beating both then affirmed that point.


I'm not sure what this has to do with what I was talking about in terms of "God of Shinobi" title, but i'll bite.

Honestly when I read the "manga" battle of Orochimaru vs Hiruzen, I got the impression that Edo-Hokages were weaker [though still Hokage-level]. Than I watched the Anime and it made it seem like the Edo-Hokages were just as strong as they were in life; so I went with that for a long time. I think the Anime really confused a-lot of people, when in reality it wasn't Kishimoto's intent to ever have the Hokage at full-power. What I mean by this is that I seriously doubt that Kishi ever believed Hiruzen was so much stronger than Tobirama + Hashirama, that he could defeat both of them combined [than go on to nearly defeat Orochimaru], despite being significantly weakened by age, and both Hokages upgraded with Edo-buffs. If Old-Hiruzen > Edo-Hokages that wouldn't just demonstrate Hiruzen's hype of being individually the strongest Hokage, but also mean that Prime-Hiruzen would absolutely floor both of his predecessors with zero difficulty. Again I don't think that was Kishi's intent.

Looking back I think the match was always suppose to be Hokages brought back weaker vs a Hiruzen whose weaker due to age. Handicapped Hiruzen defeats his predecessors at the cost of his life, who are also handicapped. Perhaps hinting that the outcome would be the same if they weren't handicapped, or leaving it ambiguous as to how Prime-Hiruzen vs 2 Past-Hokages would go down; considering we already were told that Prime-Hiruzen was stronger than any Hokage individually. That part is open to interpretation though.



> The universally understood truth that Hashirama > all didn't seem to be known to the ANBU watching the fight (or else they had enough knowledge of Edo Tensei to know that the Edos were weaker, and it was so obvious, noone felt the need to say anything about it.)


The Anbu seemed very much aware of Tobirama and Hashirama's hype:

Shounensuki:
Anbu-Fodder,  "Shodai-sama! Nidaime-sama!!"
"…Eh!!?"
"That's right! The one with the black hair is the Shodai… The one with the white hair the Nidaime… They are the hokage-sama who, together, were hailed as the strongest shinobi and built up the Konoha of today…!"

They may have known of Edo-Tensei being weakened, in-fact I believe at least one of the Anbu demonstrates a good deal of knowledge on it [though i'd have to go back and check to be sure], but they were also aware of Hiruzen being weakened by age. So like I said, most likely the take away there, was suppose to be battle between 2 handicapped parties.

With that said, Hashirama > All, is not an universally understood truth; all of the statements about Hashirama being the best/strongest/etc... are put within the context of Hashirama's Era itself. Meaning that Hashirama was > All, but only back in his day; ether that or the ones chanting Hashirama's praises are relics of Hashirama's era, namely Madara. It seems very strange to me that Kishi would be careful enough to make it that way, if he wasn't still invested in some fashion, in explaining Prime-Hiruzen's hype. Whether he's going to explain it as:

A)Prime-Hiruzen literally > Hashirama 
B) if it's within the context of; when Hiruzen uses X-sacrificial jutsu he obtains a power greater than Hashirama, temporarily [like Gai's 8th-Gate]
C)Hiruzen strength in some way growths in proportion to the enemy he is facing [Kisame type situation]
D)Hiruzen is better than Hashirama, because while Hashirama possess more raw strength, Hiruzen un-ending knowledge and mastery of Jutsu allows him to counter even more techniques than Hashirama could with raw-power alone
E)Etc...

*My opinion it is D.

There are a-lot of options, open to Kishi and if Kishi bother to explain Edo-Hokages being weaker, 8th-Gate hype, etc... I feel like the odds are good that he'll get around to this eventually. And one more thing that I think people should consider, is that i'm pretty sure [and correct me if i'm wrong] Orochimaru himself never calls Hashirama "a god of shinobi". Most likely this is because for him Hiruzen is the only "god of shinobi", which fits, because of Orochimaru fascination with mastering so many Jutsu, and Hiruzen potentially having mastered the most Jutsu out of anyone in the entire verse. My point being is that terms like "a god of shinobi" are most likely subjective to the speaker; some people consider Hiruzen "a god of shinobi" probably for the amount of Jutsu he mastered, while others consider Hashirama "a god of shinobi" for his raw power, and would not be surprised if still others considered Minato  "a god of shinobi" for his innate talent and adherence to the "right" path to take as a ninja.


----------



## Dr. White (Apr 1, 2014)

Old Hiruzen may be able to sneak one off on Mei, and possibly even TrollKage. So I'll say trollkage.

Prime Hiruzen I can see him giving people like Itachi, Minato (living base), and Tobirama a strong fight. So at his peak performance one of them, but I wouldn't say he beats them consistently.


----------



## animeboy1 (Apr 1, 2014)

If, Enma is considered to be one of the strongest summons, how would he fare against both the versions of Manda? I'm assuming that he'd be hard pressed to stall the second version for long.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm not sure what this has to do with what I was talking about in terms of "God of Shinobi" title, but i'll bite.
> 
> Honestly when I read the "manga" battle of Orochimaru vs Hiruzen, I got the impression that Edo-Hokages were weaker [though still Hokage-level]. Than I watched the Anime and it made it seem like the Edo-Hokages were just as strong as they were in life; so I went with that for a long time. I think the Anime really confused a-lot of people, when in reality it wasn't Kishimoto's intent to ever have the Hokage at full-power. What I mean by this is that I seriously doubt that Kishi ever believed Hiruzen was so much stronger than Tobirama + Hashirama, that he could defeat both of them combined [than go on to nearly defeat Orochimaru], despite being significantly weakened by age, and both Hokages upgraded with Edo-buffs. If Old-Hiruzen > Edo-Hokages that wouldn't just demonstrate Hiruzen's hype of being individually the strongest Hokage, but also mean that Prime-Hiruzen would absolutely floor both of his predecessors with zero difficulty. Again I don't think that was Kishi's intent.
> 
> ...


Oro did call Hashi by saying "a god of shinobi."


and yes, that ANBU knew that the Hokages were called the ultimate shinboi, he knew about the ET, and the Hashi's wood, as well as Hiruzen's age problem...etc


----------



## Senjuclan (Apr 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Age was a problem in general, I never doubted that. What i'm saying is that nothing says age stopped being a problem in general 10 years ago. All the DB/Manga says is that 10 years ago Hiruzen can kill Orochimaru.
> 
> Again Age could have - 30  from his Prime Strength in part I, 10 years ago it could have only -  25, allowing him the strength to kill Orochimaru, but it still would have been -25.



Prime is a creation of the board. The manga only refers to age being a problem 10 years prior to the incident. That is all we have to go by. Now, you created the whole prime business because you could not reconcile Hiruzen weakness with the statement that he was the strongest hokage (not you as a person but you as people who adhere to this line of thought. However, once it was clear that Kishi no longer adhered to this line of thought, your whole prime business becomes baseless



Turrin said:


> First off no one even said Kakuzu was going to use cloak and daggers to kill Hashirama; assassinate can mean many things. And in-fact the manga implies Kakuzu did try to fight Hashirama straight up.



as?sas?si?nate
əˈsasəˌnāt/Submit
verb
1.
murder (an important person) in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons.
synonyms:	murder, kill, slaughter; More



Turrin said:


> Second even if someone did use cloak and daggers tactics, they'd still need to be incredibly stronger to succeed in killing Hashirama; Kakuzu pre-Jingo is a far cry from that.



He was overrated and failed. 



Turrin said:


> Okay so people from Hashirama's era, didn't fully understand Hashirama's full power. So just being from someone's era doesn't mean you will grasp someone full power. Hence your point is moot.



Tsunade is not from Hashirama's era



Turrin said:


> What the fuck dude, your whole point was that Kabuto referenced Rikudo-Sennin not Hiruzen, hence Hiruzen being weaker. By that same logic since Kabuto didn't reference any of those people they are all weaker than Hashirama.



Your reading comprehension sucks. My point was that RS and Hashirama's power was considered fairy tale. YOU said how do you know that Hiruzen's power was not considered as such. I said, Well they only counted two people. YOU said by that logic you mean Hashirama is stronger than Kaguya & Co. I said no it is strength that is compared but the lore of one's strength.

It is too much to ask that you know what you are arguing?



Turrin said:


> The evidence is that he was leading the charge, the rest is common-sense.



In other words, you have no evidence. Moving on



Turrin said:


> Again you keep changing around your point. First you say it's weak sauce in general, now you say it's weak sauce in comparison to the top tier. Two different points. The former is trollish, the latter is true, but Hashirama himself is also weak sauce compared to Top-Tier, I.E. Kaguya level.



I said Hiruzen is quite weak. Obviously I am comparing him to fodder that comparison would be meaningless. He is weak just like I consider Gaara's father to be weak or fodder. Does that mean I think he is fodder by general standards? NO!! He is weak and fodder by standards of his title and rank. Simple logic



Turrin said:


> Can kill is different than being beyond Orochimaru's level. Thee only Kages who are well beyond Orochimaru's level that we've seen are Hashirama and Edo Minato. Nothing else is substantiated by the manga.



That is YOUR opinion of Orochimaru (sans edo tensei or messing around with edo tensei). Not mine. I think MANY people, kage or otherwise beat him because he is dumb (as in blinded by arrogance)



Turrin said:


> Kishi has given us more statements of Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama, than he's given statements for any other character comparison in the manga.  If you want to disregard these statements, for whatever reason, than that's up to you, but don't ask me where the statements are, because that's ridiculous.



We have gone over the reason said statements no longer hold true. Kishi never said PRIME Hiruzen. He just said Hiruzen. You guys created the idea of prime Hiruzen. However, Kishi retconned Hiruzen's strength leaving you guys behind



Turrin said:


> The statement about 8th-Gate Gai being stronger than Hashirama was made about the same time as Prime-Hiruzen stronger than Hashirama, and it took until last chapter for Kishimoto to address it again. To me the argument of why hasn't Kishi stated it again, since the last time he stated it, is therefore not all that valid. I do understand the fact that it would be nice if he stated it again or wanting re-confirmation though, so I can see where your coming from, but I hope you can also see where I'm coming from as well.



Gai was said to be stronger than hokage in 8 gates and last chapter retconned it to stronger than the gokage. Hashirama is stronger than the gokage. There is neither a statement nor a logical implication that Gai is stronger than Hashirama


----------



## Trojan (Apr 1, 2014)

Guy is stronger than Hashirama, chapter 669 did not retcon a thing. As a matter of fact it conforms it. Madara
even said he wanted to fight Hashirama before he become the Juubi's host because he knew that Hashi will
be a fodder to him in that case. Hashirama is even weaker than mindless v1 obito, while Guy is fighting madara
who is stronger than obito at his full power.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Stamina has been increased among Part II characters, but Hiruzen is ultimately a Part I character, and so I don't see why his stamina would increase dramatically even with power inflation. Hiruzen was actually cited on multiple instances for having decreased chakra reserves, and he has a 3 for stamina in the Databook, which is just above average. Unless that is outright ret-conned, I don't think much will change.
> ]​



Why do people underrate Old Hiruzen's stamina so much. . Itachi with average stamina and a terminal illness was still throwing around Mangekyo-Sharingan techniques [among other things], which were stated to consume an extremely large amount of chakra. But even that's not an apt comparison, because you said it yourself, he has a 3 in the DB which is *above* average. So the more apt comparison would be Kakashi, and how many fucks has Kishi given when it comes to Kakashi's stamina limitations? Or to put it another way how much has Kishi allowed Kakashi to spam in the war-arc?

Moving on from the DB-Stat totals, Old-Hiruzen was outright stated to have fought for nearly an hour against Orochimaru:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Fanbook, "Both were extremely powerful ninja and their battle lasted nearly an hour"




Nearly an HOUR!!!! So why then is this guy, constantly given the third degree when it comes to stamina in the NBD? I'll tell you why it's because of the misinterpretation of one singular statement, namely this one:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Oro : I can't believe you leapt right in without even using shadow clones...

Anbu : No... It isn't that he's not using them, but rather that he cannot... The amount of chakra lord hokage possesses has declined since his youth... A jutsu like the shadow clone technique, which splits ones chakra into equal pieces... if things go wrong, it's like throwing away chunks of chakra...




People take this to mean Hiruzen's stamina is crap, but the context is rather that Prime-Hiruzen's stamina was ridiculously high. To break it down, Orochimaru is questioning why Hiruzen isn't casually throwing around KB; because according to Orochimaru that was Hiruzen's style to always use KB when attacking. Than the Anbu basically tells us he can't use Shadow clones anymore, but since we see him using shadow clones later in the battle, we can be sure that the context isn't that Hiruzen can't use shadow clones at all, but rather that he can't use shadow-clones the way he used to, and has to actually be conservative with his shadow clones. 

Basically all this is telling us is that Hiruzen used to be a clone spammer, but now has to use clones like say Kakashi would. Really nothing there about his stamina being crap or anything like that.



> If we actually examine what he did against Orochimaru - create a couple of Kage Bunshin, use a generic doton, katon, summon Enma, and participate in a few taijutsu exchanges before starting to hit the sack


I don't know why someone would look at the Orochimaru battle this way. Hiruzen specifically indicated he could use more Jutsu, but they would be meaningless due to the Edo-Tensei's regeneration. So looking at it in terms of how many Jutsu he used isn't going to add up properly. Instead one should be looking at the fact that he played tug of war with the Shinigami's arm and Orochimaru's soul for nearly an hour; with a sword in his back and the Shingami itself  fing his day up. 



> , it would be fairly reasonable to say that he cannot perform those massive elemental blasts repeatedly as he did against Shinsuusenju, especially not with four Kage Bunshin dividing up his chakra.


Old Hiruzen has more chakra than Edo-Hiruzen, because Edo-Hiruzen was brought back weaker. Edos chakra simply regenerates at a fixed rate. If Hiruzen's combo against Shinshuusenju would have depleted Old-Hiruzen's chakra supplies completely; Edo-Hiruzen would have also had zero chakra left or not have been able to perform the combo at all, because Edo's can run out of chakra, if they use it up too quickly:

Edo-Minato,  "Sorry no! My chakra has been drained by that last flying raijin and these vines"

To simplify this think of it this way:

Old Hiruzen's Chakra Supply = 100
Edo Hiruzen's Chakra Supply = 90

Old Hiruzen uses a Jutsu that takes 50 points of chakra
Edo Hiruzen uses that same Jutsu

Old Hiruzen's Chakra supply after Jutsu = 50
Edo Hiruzen chakra supply after Jutsu = 40

Edo Hiruzen actually has less chakra than Old Hiruzen after activating the Jutsu, but than let's say each Hiruzen takes 5minutes to rest. 

Old Hiruzen Chakra supply after 5min rest = 51
Edo Hiruzen Chakra supply after 5min rest = 90

Old Hiruzen is barely going to recover any chakra from a 5min rest, because he needs to actually sleep, eat, etc... to recover, Edo-Hiruzen however due to Edo-perks will recover a massive amount of chakra during that [it may no be as massive as him recovering all of his chakra but you get my point]

So if Edo Hiruzen can pull off the KB combo and immediately keep fighting Shin Suusenju, that means the combo did not consume all of even Edo-Hiruzen's chakra supply, let alone Old-Hiruzen's chakra supply. As for how many times Old-Hiruzen can use that combo, stamina fluctuates based on plot; considering how much Kishi has allowed Kakashi to spam in the war, whose really to say Old-Hiruzen could use or not, when there are so many moving parts; how much are Edos weakened, how much chakra does it cost, etc....



> Hiruzen can maybe counter her suiton with raiton to shock her, or ambush her with a surprise elongated-staff swipe, but I don't believe he'll actually be able to kill her.


Old-Hiruzen has clearly been portrayed above Mei, it's really not even a contest. Mei is unfortunately one of the weaker Kages we've seen; Hiruzen even old was still the strongest Gokage. Feats are meaningless, especially in Hiruzen's case, considering he has mastered thousands of upon thousands of Jutsu. 

However if we strictly want to talk about how Hiruzen would counter Mei's suiton, that's easy. Hiruzen uses a Doton Jutsu to blow her Suiton back into her, and than when she's wet follows up with a Raiton.  If the raiton doesn't kill, her while she's stunned from it Hiruzen can follow up with any number of Jutsu [Kage Bushin Shuriken, Enma, Katon/Fuuton, etc...] to finish the job.That's GG. Do I think the match would precisely go that way; no I don't because I think trying to base the fights on feats is silly, but the essence of what i'm saying, that Mei is going up against someone whose clearly portrayed to be of a higher level than her and has full command over the elemental wheel, makes it highly likely that Mei trying to combat Hiruzen with her Suitons is a fools endeavor.



> Mei on the other hand can spew an invisible mist across the arena,


All it would take to counter Mei's Mist, would be a basic Fuuton Jutsu. And given Hiruzen's portrayal of being able to pull out the exact same elemental Jutsu as ShinSuuSenju on the spot [& general portrayal as the professor, easily mastering 1,000 Jutsu, and mastering all Jutsu in Konoha] I think it's safe to say Hiruzen has at least one; if not multiple Fuutons that are less taxing than the one he used against Buddha and more on the level of Orochimaru's Daitoppa or Danzo's basic Fuutons.

So the Mist would almost certainly offer zero difficulty to Hiruzen, unless it can be utilized in a different way than how we've seen in the manga, which is possible, but that is another discussion entirely.



> she can still counter almost everything he has. She has suiton to stop his katon, earth to stop his suiton (though a big enough suiton of her own could counteract it) and katon to combat his fuuton. Raiton is her biggest worry but I don't think it can kill her when she can reduce the damage it inflicts with earth walls/katon flames/suiton projectiles.


I'm not one who doubts that Mei can use Jutsu from each element as I think portrayal clearly indicates that she can without me needing to see feats. So yeah Mei has good elemental coverage herself, but ultimately Hiruzen is portrayed to be much more versatile in this area than Mei. Not only does he have the additional element -- though perhaps this can be argue on the basis of Mei having Youton and Futton, but they don't seem to offer any extra coverage beyond their base elements -- but Hiruzen is also implied to have a plethora of Jutsu in each element -- i'm sure Mei has mastery some Jutsu in each element [perhaps a good amount in Suiton because she is the Mizukage], but I don't think anything indicates she has mastered the amount Hiruzen has -- and finally Hiruzen can utilize KB to mix and match elements; Mei doesn't have that freedom, she can only mix 2 different sets of elements to form Yoton and Futton. Now I wouldn't be surprised if Mei can create her own Bushin, but they are almost certainly not Kage-Bushin as Mei is not from Konoha -- no saying only Konoha ninja can utilize Kage-Bushin, but it's just less likely --- they'd most likely be elemental-bushin [namely Mizu-Bushin, she is Mizu-Kage after all], but than we run into the issue of whether elemental Bushin can use elemental-jutsu outside the element they are constructed from, and the obvious limitations of elemental bushin [Mizu-Bushin are 1/10th or something ridiculously small the strength of the original].



> On the other hand, Mei's reserves are enough to outlast Hiruzen quite quickly and, if she gets close enough to him, melt him with lava or acid.


Where are you getting the idea that Mei's reserves are greater than Hiruzen's, let alone greater to the extent you suggest here. By portrayal I don't think Mei has low reserves, but nothing indicates her reserves are massive ether; it seems to me that from the info/portrayal we have now one would guess Mei's stamina to fall somewhere between 2.5 to 3.5; maybe pushing the limit of her water-dragons portrayal we could argue for a 4. But even if she has a 4, that is merely 1-Tier above Hiruzen's and is not going to make it so Mei easily outlasts Hiruzen. In-fact we've seen Itachi out last Hebi-Sasuke, stamina wise, despite having 1-Tier less stamina than him, simply because of his superior chakra-control and being overall the more skillful fighter. Hiruzen by portrayal is certainly the better fighter and certainly has better chakra control, unless both have the absolute maximum in that regard. 



> can see situations where Hiruzen might win but I generally find Mei to be stronger.


The belief that Mei is stronger than Hiruzen is really in stark contrast with how they have been portrayed so far.​


----------



## animeboy1 (Apr 1, 2014)

New Folder's scan does prove Turrin's point, about the gods of Shinobi. 

Orochimaru said "It's an honour to be praised by 'a' God of Shinobi". This again suggests that that there was the possibility of both of them being referred to that.

While prime Hiruzen, may have been the most powerful Hokage by hype. I find it peculiar, that there would be such a massive difference of strength, between the Hiruzen that fought Kurama, and his 'prime' self.

So, let us say that there was still a few years difference, between prime Hiruzen, and the Hiruzen who was facing Kurama, and later Orochimaru. Then shouldn't have Hiruzen in both these circumstances, have displayed more of his 'wide range of Jutsus', that could potentially have rivaled Hashirama.

Granted, with age, he probably couldn't use some of them, but even old Hiruzen, had at least some amount of Chakra to showcase, something apart from shiki fuujin.

In his prime, would he really have had something to rival Hashirama's 
shinsuusenju? 

I don't think Kishimoto is going to approach this topic again. It will always be left ambiguous, since it can be interpreted in so many different ways.

On one side, you have Hiruzen's part one hype. But in part 2, the author brings about the fairy tale, Hashirama concept. Hiruzen is completely ignored.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a retcon either. Reason being, that while Turrin may have analysed all the statements regarding the hype, I don't think the author would expect the average reader to do so.

He'd at least reiterate the fact, that Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama, since most of the readers would immediately be swayed by the 'Hashirama' complex. Like, I said before, if I'm the author, and I'm constantly bragging about Hashirama, I would expect at least some of the readers to consider Hashirama as the strongest. I can't honestly expect the 'average' reader, to remember about all the hype, statements ,etc.

So, in such a case Kishimoto would have just reiterated his old statement, for proving his point.

But, then obviously, another argument can be made.

a) Part 1 or not, Kishimoto stated that, Prime Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage
b) Even after the 'Hashirama' complex, Kishimoto hasn't stated that Hashirama is the strongest Hokage.
c) Kishimoto hasn't stated that 'prime Hiruzen' will lose to Hashirama. He has basically kept mum on prime Hiruzen in part 2. So, some people can still interpret it as a sign of Hiruzen's dominance.
d) Like Turrin suggested, Hiruzen's strength may relate to the mastery/knowledge of his countless jutsus. Hashirama's strength pertains to a few similar abilities, while Hiruzen commands more variety.

With that said, I think it can relate to both the scenarios. Kishimoto perhaps, wouldn't personally want to portray, one over the other. Leaving it ambiguous. I mean, if you are the author, would you want to broach such a delicate subject? If, you say that prime Hiruzen is the strongest, your readers may then mock you for all the Hashirama 'crap', you've given them. So, from his point of view, why should Kishi reiterate Hiruzen's statement anyways?

If, the author favors Hashirama, it would still be in his interest to not mention it. Since in spite of everything, he had previously stated that Hiruzen is stronger........But, the recent feats would push a large proportion of his readership towards Hashirama, so he could simply keep mum about it. Since, many people would already believe that Hashirama is on a different level. A retcon would question the validity of all his previous facts.

So, I think this is hung in the air, and pretty much depends upon the fan base. If, you like Hiruzen, you'll state the facts. If not, you'll state everything about Hashirama.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 1, 2014)

> While prime Hiruzen, may have been the most powerful Hokage by hype. I find it peculiar, that there would be such a massive difference of strength, between the Hiruzen that fought Kurama, and his 'prime' self.



There is a massive different between the senju bros who fought Hiruzen, and the current them. So, being 
a massive gap does not change that's it's possible and happened to some characters such as Hashirama.

We did not even see how the fight was between Hiruzen and Kurama, we only saw 1 or 2 scans, one of which
they actually took Kurama out of the village!


----------



## Senjuclan (Apr 1, 2014)

animeboy1 said:


> New Folder's scan does prove Turrin's point, about the gods of Shinobi.
> 
> Orochimaru said "It's an honour to be praised by 'a' God of Shinobi". This again suggests that that there was the possibility of both of them being referred to that.



There is no A in Japanese. It just says shinobi no kami. A is an addition by translators


----------



## animeboy1 (Apr 1, 2014)

New Folder said:


> There is a massive different between the senju bros who fought Hiruzen, and the current them. So, being
> a massive gap does not change that's it's possible and happened to some characters such as Hashirama.
> 
> We did not even see how the fight was between Hiruzen and Kurama, we only saw 1 or 2 scans, one of which
> they actually took Kurama out of the village!



Against them, old Hiruzen had the potential to utilize his entire arsenal, but the Senjus were limited from displaying their best. Hiruzen on the other hand, had no such restrictions.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Prime is a creation of the board. The manga only refers to age being a problem 10 years prior to the incident. That is all we have to go by. Now, you created the whole prime business because you could not reconcile Hiruzen weakness with the statement that he was the strongest hokage (not you as a person but you as people who adhere to this line of thought. However, once it was clear that Kishi no longer adhered to this line of thought, your whole prime business becomes baseless


Here are the statements:

Sandaime: (Thinking) This can't be it... I've come so far... Are you saying... I don't even have enough strength... to pull out his soul...? That this aged body... is too decrepit, even though I have resolved to die...?!
Orochimaru: (Thinking) If you had been even just 10 years younger... *You might have been able to kill me... Heh heh...
*
DB2 Pg 59
The deciding factor for life and death in the fight between the Sandaime and Orochimaru is ‘age.’ If only the third were 10 years younger, *the outcome could have been different.*

The subject in both of these statements is  "the outcome" of the match between Hiruzen and Orochimaru. That's it. Now does that imply Hiruzen would be less effected by age 10 year ago, sure it does, but *nowhere * in the text does it say 10 years ago Hiruzen would have been *completely* unaffected by age; that is something your trying to add to the text, which is not present in the actual text. 



> as?sas?si?nate
> əˈsasəˌnāt/Submit
> verb
> 1.
> ...


Okay and to murder someone does not necessarily mean cloak and dagers. Kakuzu himself says he fought Hashirama, which does not imply he tried to poison him or some shit like that.



> He was overrated and failed.


The only way Kakuzu could have been overrated is if they were also underrating Hashirama. No sane person whose aware of Hashirama full power is thinking Kakuzu pre-Jingo can kill Hashirama, regardless of whatever means they were expecting Kakuzu to use.



> Tsunade is not from Hashirama's era


Than how does Hashirama remember Tsunade as a kid?



> Your reading comprehension sucks. My point was that RS and Hashirama's power was considered fairy tale. YOU said how do you know that Hiruzen's power was not considered as such. I said, Well they only counted two people. YOU said by that logic you mean Hashirama is stronger than Kaguya & Co. I said no it is strength that is compared but the lore of one's strength.


I'm sorry, but than what are you trying to prove here with the statement. If Kaguya, Indra, Rikudo's Brother, Ashura, etc... can go unmentioned, how in anyway does the statement support your case.



> In other words, you have no evidence. Moving on


So you choosing to ignore common sense that the leader and person right out on the front-lines  would be doing the most? I'm sorry, but your being outright disingenuous if that's your stand-point.



> said Hiruzen is quite weak. Obviously I am comparing him to fodder that comparison would be meaningless. He is weak just like I consider Gaara's father to be weak or fodder. Does that mean I think he is fodder by general standards? NO!! He is weak and fodder by standards of his title and rank. Simple logic


Why would you call someone weak and fodder, if they are not weaker and fodder, it makes no sense, and is a very piss poor way to get your point across.



> That is YOUR opinion of Orochimaru (sans edo tensei or messing around with edo tensei). Not mine. I* think MANY people, kage or otherwise beat him* because he is dumb (as in blinded by arrogance)


Again there is a difference between there being Kages that could possible beat them, and there being Kages that are actually above his level. So again let's get clear on what you are saying. Do you think many Kages have a chance to beat him or are you saying their are many Kages beyond Orochimaru's "level"?



> We have gone over the reason said statements no longer hold true. Kishi never said PRIME Hiruzen. He just said Hiruzen. You guys created the idea of prime Hiruzen. However, Kishi retconned Hiruzen's strength leaving you guys behind


Your attacking a straw-man. No one ever said Kishi used the word "prime-hiruzen".  The forums use "Prime Hiruzen" as a way to refer to whatever period of time Kishi was referencing in DB, Manga, & FB, where Hiruzen was at his strongest. 



> Gai was said to be stronger than hokage in 8 gates and last chapter retconned it to stronger than the gokage. Hashirama is stronger than the gokage. There is neither a statement nor a logical implication that Gai is stronger than Hashirama


No last chapter just told us that Gai is also stronger than the Gokage. Gai is very clearly stronger than any Hokage in 8th-Gate; he's currently playing pinball with a Madara who is significantly stronger than the one who was Hashirama's equal.

Honestly it just seems like you take anything as a sign of a retecon when it comes to Fav. I mean next someone will say Rikudo is stronger than Naruto, and you'll be like oh man Rikudo has been retecon'd to weaker than Hashirama, because someone said he's also stronger than a character weaker than Hashirama LOL.



Senjuclan said:


> There is no A in Japanese. It just says shinobi no kami. A is an addition by translators


Are you a translator? Also even if we take your word for it, there is obviously a reason why adding an "a" there makes sense, and that is because Shinobi no Kami is a title that can apply to multiple individuals.


----------



## animeboy1 (Apr 1, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> There is no A in Japanese. It just says shinobi no kami. A is an addition by translators



But, I believe, that something similar regarding 'a' was mentioned in another context as well. So, I was considering this as a supplementation to that, apart from the data book. This translation hax, tends to really confuse me.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 1, 2014)

animeboy1 said:


> Against them, old Hiruzen had the potential to utilize his entire arsenal, but the Senjus were limited from displaying their best. Hiruzen on the other hand, had no such restrictions.



No.
1- Hiruzen was old and did not have much chakra.
2- He figured out that using the normal jutsus won't work because they are ET and
he needs to seal them up to end the fight.

So, unless you think Hiruzen is portrayed to be stupid and just attack with one jutsu after the other
while he knows that it won't effect them, there is not reason for him to do so.


----------



## animeboy1 (Apr 1, 2014)

New Folder said:


> No.
> 1- Hiruzen was old and did not have much chakra.
> 2- He figured out that using the normal jutsus won't work because they are ET and
> he needs to seal them up to end the fight.
> ...



I believe that regardless of their Edo abilities, if he would have been capable of using jutsus apart from the likes of Karyuu Endan, he would have. Even his Katons cost Chakra.

What is your point? Is it too outlandish to believe, that Hiruzen despite his Chakra issues(was still the strongest in the leaf), should have enlightened us more. I don't see how this is relevant, since I've also stated why Hiruzen may be stronger than Hashirama.


----------



## Mithos (Apr 1, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Stamina has been increased among Part II characters, but Hiruzen is ultimately a Part I character, and so I don't see why his stamina would increase dramatically even with power inflation. Hiruzen was actually cited on multiple instances for having decreased chakra reserves, and he has a 3 for stamina in the Databook, which is just above average. Unless that is outright ret-conned, I don't think much will change.
> 
> If we actually examine what he did against Orochimaru - create a couple of Kage Bunshin, use a generic doton, katon, summon Enma, and participate in a few taijutsu exchanges before starting to hit the sack, it would be fairly reasonable to say that he cannot perform those massive elemental blasts repeatedly as he did against Shinsuusenju, especially not with four Kage Bunshin dividing up his chakra.​




Stamina has increased for everyone across the board in Part II because of the power inflation. It's not necessarily that the characters themselves have improved their stamina. Hiruzen has a 3 in stamina, yes, and characters from the beginning of Part II with similar DB stats in stamina can do much more than cast a couple elemental jutsu before exhausting themselves. 

Take Kakashi for example. In Part 1 a couple Raikiri's completely drained him but in Part II it's not nearly as much of an issue. Unless there's a logical reason to believe that Kakashi's stamina reserves, known to be relatively poor, all of a sudden more than quadrupled I'm attributing most of his "increase" in stamina to power inflation. 

Everything in Part II is bigger. The elemental ninjutsu the ANBU used on the Cerberus were above Hiruzen and Tobirama's "kage level" ninjutsu shown during the Hiruzen vs Orochimaru fight. If Kishi rewrote the fight now, it would be very diffferent. I think it's important to take into account context and portrayal more than just the size of the jutsu and what's drawn; what's drawn evolves a lot but how Kishi wants us to see what's happening in relation to the manga doesn't always. Stamina pools have ostensibly increased to accomodate for the increase in scale of the jutsu, but when you compare them to other characters in the context they were written not much, if anything, has changed. 



> Hiruzen can maybe counter her suiton with raiton to shock her, or ambush her with a surprise elongated-staff swipe, but I don't believe he'll actually be able to kill her.



Why not? He has plenty of jutsu, and he doesn't have to take her out in one clean hit. 



> Mei on the other hand can spew an invisible mist across the arena, fire huge water dragons repeatedly, and even with less elemental coverage than him, she can still counter almost everything he has. She has suiton to stop his katon, earth to stop his suiton (though a big enough suiton of her own could counteract it) and katon to combat his fuuton. Raiton is her biggest worry but I don't think it can kill her when she can reduce the damage it inflicts with earth walls/katon flames/suiton projectiles. On the other hand, Mei's reserves are enough to outlast Hiruzen quite quickly and, if she gets close enough to him, melt him with lava or acid.



Mist can be countered by high level fuutons, and I don't see why he can't match her suitons. He easily countered the suiton of the buddha, Mei's aren't going to be that much of an issue. You're comparing what's been drawn in Part I to what's been drawn in Part II and you can't do it like that. I think you're attributing the difference in scale of Edo Hiruzen's jutsu and Old Hiruzen's to his infinite chakra supply, but in my opinion it has more to do with power inflation and what looks Kage level. Kage level didn't change from Part I to II, plot-wise, but it did art-wise. 



> I can see situations where Hiruzen might win but I generally find Mei to be stronger.


​
But Kishi doesn't seem to. Old Hiruzen was said to be the strongest of the Gokage. And during the war (although he is an Edo so that does help his power is still limited), he was portrayed as one of the "Biggest of the Big Fish" along with the other Hokage and portrayed as a level above the Gokage.

With his past and recent portrayal painting him above the Gokage, I just can't see Kishi writing a fight between Hiruzen and Mei where Hiruzen runs out of chakra from using some elemental ninjutsu.


----------



## Senjuclan (Apr 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Here are the statements:
> 
> Sandaime: (Thinking) This can't be it... I've come so far... Are you saying... I don't even have enough strength... to pull out his soul...? That this aged body... is too decrepit, even though I have resolved to die...?!
> Orochimaru: (Thinking) If you had been even just 10 years younger... *You might have been able to kill me... Heh heh...
> ...



Are you saying that if Hiruzen was not fighting Orochimaru he would have been able to use kage bunshin without a problem? That he would have had more chakra?



Turrin said:


> Okay and to murder someone does not necessarily mean cloak and dagers. Kakuzu himself says he fought Hashirama, which does not imply he tried to poison him or some shit like that.



Databook 3 - Kakuzu: 
Main text

Page 1

What cued Kakuzu into achieving a way to prowl across time itself (ndt: this is a metaphor, obviously!) goes back to the dawning era of shinobi villages, when nations were still in the process of building them... As one of Takigakure's (Hidden Waterfall) finest, *Kakuzu is given the challenging mission to assassinate the Hokage*



Turrin said:


> The only way Kakuzu could have been overrated is if they were also underrating Hashirama. No sane person whose aware of Hashirama full power is thinking Kakuzu pre-Jingo can kill Hashirama, regardless of whatever means they were expecting Kakuzu to use.



I could have assassinate Bruce Lee. Does not mean I am as strong as he was



Turrin said:


> Than how does Hashirama remember Tsunade as a kid?



e?ra
ˈi(ə)rə,ˈerə/Submit
noun
1.
a long and distinct period of history with a particular feature or characteristic.
"his death marked the end of an era"
synonyms:	epoch, age, period, phase, time, span, eon; More

Two different eras and she met him when she was a kid. I don't remember the first thing about my grandfather either



Turrin said:


> I'm sorry, but than what are you trying to prove here with the statement. If Kaguya, Indra, Rikudo's Brother, Ashura, etc... can go unmentioned, how in anyway does the statement support your case.



Those people were lost to history. No one knew them. Even Hashirama did not know them and he is a direct descendant. 



Turrin said:


> So you choosing to ignore common sense that the leader and person right out on the front-lines  would be doing the most? I'm sorry, but your being outright disingenuous if that's your stand-point.



You said you had evidence. If you can't provide it, simply state that you lied and move on. If you are going to appeal to logic, first start by saying that you were wrong when you said it was evident. then present the logic and I will prove to you why said logic is wanting



Turrin said:


> Why would you call someone weak and fodder, if they are not weaker and fodder, it makes no sense, and is a very piss poor way to get your point across.



Because he is a fodderkage just like Hiruzen. context, learn what it means



Turrin said:


> Again there is a difference between there being Kages that could possible beat them, and there being Kages that are actually above his level. So again let's get clear on what you are saying. Do you think many Kages have a chance to beat him or are you saying their are many Kages beyond Orochimaru's "level"?



BOTH



Turrin said:


> Your attacking a straw-man. No one ever said Kishi used the word "prime-hiruzen".  The forums use "Prime Hiruzen" as a way to refer to whatever period of time Kishi was referencing in DB, Manga, & FB, where Hiruzen was at his strongest.



Exactly what I said. Except that period was retconned



Turrin said:


> No last chapter just told us that Gai is also stronger than the Gokage. Gai is very clearly stronger than any Hokage in 8th-Gate; he's currently playing pinball with a Madara who is significantly stronger than the one who was Hashirama's equal.



He is also fignting a Madara who is not interested in fighting him. He thinks it is a joke and asked Gai if he has other moves. 

Kishi was deliberate. He did not say hokage. He changed to GOkage for a reason. Kishi had already showed that a couple of the hokages were stronger than the gokage. If he really wanted to stick to the early hype of Gai, nothing stopped him from just repeating it. He changed it for a reason



Turrin said:


> Honestly it just seems like you take anything as a sign of a retecon when it comes to Fav. I mean next someone will say Rikudo is stronger than Naruto, and you'll be like oh man Rikudo has been retecon'd to weaker than Hashirama, because someone said he's also stronger than a character weaker than Hashirama LOL.



Except that this argument makes you sound pathetic. I maintained that RS was stronger than Hashirama when Kabuto first made that statement and people went crazy. I maintained that Minato and Hashirama would be on the same tier by the end of TWKE arc. I maintained that Edo Madara was stronger than Hashirama when a bunch of people said otherwise.  You are pathetic because you want to lump me in with unreasonable fans when I am extremely reasonable



Turrin said:


> Are you a translator? Also even if we take your word for it, there is obviously a reason why adding an "a" there makes sense, and that is because Shinobi no Kami is a title that can apply to multiple individuals.



I don't need to be a translator to know basic stuff. TaKL has mentioned it many times. Don't take my word, ask him. 

Linguistically, there is no reason to add an "a" or a "the". One does that contextually. Ask TaKL, he is the one who told me this


----------



## Senjuclan (Apr 1, 2014)

animeboy1 said:


> But, I believe, that something similar regarding 'a' was mentioned in another context as well. So, I was considering this as a supplementation to that, apart from the data book. This translation hax, tends to really confuse me.



Ask TaKL yourself. It just says shinobi no kami. Whether one adds "the" or "a" is a choice based on context


----------



## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Are you saying that if Hiruzen was not fighting Orochimaru he would have been able to use kage bunshin without a problem? That he would have had more chakra?


There is no way your this thick, your just trolling now. Please come back to me when you feel like discussing shit seriously.


----------



## Cognitios (Apr 1, 2014)

If you believe Prime Hiruzen hype, he beats Hashirama and that is it.
BSM Naruto wins by massive creating massive bunshins and SM enhanced Bijuu Bombs and Giant Rasenshurikens are thrown. 
Juubito isn't losing to anyone who cannot use Senjutsu, Hiruzen can't do that, especially if you go by manga word.
SM Mokuton Rinnegan Madara isn't losing to Hiruzen either, PS + Wooden Buddha + Gedo Mazou + Kurama. GG motherfuker
Juubidara stomps him, no getting around that.


----------



## Senjuclan (Apr 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> There is no way your this thick, your just trolling now. Please come back to me when you feel like discussing shit seriously.



Run Forest Run

When you are done running, you can answer my post


----------



## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Run Forest Run
> 
> When you are done running, you can answer my post


There is no reason to answer your post, when you keep playing the fool, no matter how I explain it to you.


----------



## Senjuclan (Apr 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> There is no reason to answer your post, when you keep playing the fool, no matter how I explain it to you.



There was never a reason to answer your posts because you play the fool when everybody knows that Kishi retconned Hiruzen's strength. However, I did answer them because even a fool deserves an answer


----------



## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> There was never a reason to answer your posts because you play the fool when everybody knows that Kishi retconned Hiruzen's strength. However, I did answer them because even a fool deserves an answer


See it's shit like this, which makes you just as bad as any other fanboy, if not worse. Which is sad because in many other instances your actually an intelligent poster.


----------



## Senjuclan (Apr 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> See it's shit like this, which makes you just as bad as any other fanboy, if not worse. Which is sad because in many other instances your actually an intelligent poster.



I am a fanboy because I used your own words? 

I know you are trying to make this personal by calling me names but I assure you it won't work. 

So, conclusion is Turrin thinks he is the only one entitled to call others fools but telling him that even a fool deserves an answers makes one a fanboy 

Dat Logic


----------



## StickaStick (Apr 1, 2014)

It pretty much comes down to whether you believe the hype is still canon or not as Kishi has yet to explicitly state one way or another that Hiruzen is not the strongest Hokage/Hashirama is . Personally I think Hashirama's portrayal and hype in this arc  combined with a lack of any real recognition of Hiruzen is meant to tell us the title of strongest Hokage was retconned. 

However, the door is still open and with the way Kishi's been going about lately with making past statements/hype hold true in today's story (8th Gate, Naruto surpassing his predecessors arguably) I almost feel like if nothing else he will go out of his way to make it hold true as well. Could also possibly explain why Kishi hasn't seem interested yet in showing us "Prime" Hiruzen yet like he did "Prime" Nagato; he's could be saving it for the right moment.


----------



## Mithos (Apr 2, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> There is no A in Japanese. It just says shinobi no kami. A is an addition by translators



There is no 'the' in Japanese either. Japanese does not use articles like English does, so translators have to decide how to translate it by context.


----------



## Senjuclan (Apr 2, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> There is no 'the' in Japanese either. Japanese does not use articles like English does, so translators have to decide how to translate it by context.



I already said the exact same thing you just said. 



Senjuclan said:


> Ask TaKL yourself. It just says shinobi no kami. Whether one adds "the" or "a" is a choice based on context


----------



## Turrin (Apr 2, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> I am a fanboy because I used your own words?
> 
> I know you are trying to make this personal by calling me names but I assure you it won't work.
> 
> ...


This begs the question are fools the same thing as fan-boys or are they people who are completely intelligent human beings, but act like trolls when it comes to their fav-character. I believe it's the latter and that is the reason why I wouldn't call you a fool. However there are certain cases that do make me question whether i'm mistaken in that assumption.


----------



## Senjuclan (Apr 2, 2014)

Turrin said:


> This begs the question are fools the same thing as fan-boys or are they people who are completely intelligent human beings, but act like trolls when it comes to their fav-character. I believe it's the latter and that is the reason why I wouldn't call you a fool. However there are certain cases that do make me question whether i'm mistaken in that assumption.



In other words you are not interested in having a civil conversation but would rather engage in character assassination. 

Let me know when you are ready to discuss facts. i could insult you just as easily but I refuse to


----------



## Turrin (Apr 2, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> In other words you are not interested in having a civil conversation but would rather engage in character assassination.
> 
> Let me know when you are ready to discuss facts. i could insult you just as easily but I refuse to


Whose character am i assassinating? Do you have no persona outside the forums? If the answer is, yes, than that that should be your "character", and like I said I assume you are a perfectly intelligent human being, no matter how you act on the forums as far as you fav-character is concerned. 

In-fact it's the very fact that I know your not an idiot that makes it extremely obvious when your trolling and pretending to not grasp a concept that I explained several times in terms even a  kindergardener could understand - that's a complement and shouldn't be taken any other way.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Apr 3, 2014)

Prime Hashirama


----------



## Van Konzen (Apr 3, 2014)

Don't be bothered with the senju fanboy Turrin..

its clear as daylight Kishimoto is sticking to his part 1 statements..


----------



## Miyoshi (Apr 3, 2014)

*If I made a top 10 list :

 (Excluding Jūbi jinchuriki's)

1) Madara
2) Hashirama
3) Minato
4,5) Naruto,Sasuke 
6) Tobirama
7) Hiruzen
8) Nagato
9) Obito
10) Kabuto

So I'd say Nagato is the strongest he'd defeat.*


----------



## Sabco (Apr 4, 2014)

Old hiruzen = sasori 

prima hiruzen = pain or muu


----------



## J★J♥ (Apr 4, 2014)

Miyoshi said:


> *If I made a top 10 list :
> 
> (Excluding Jūbi jinchuriki's)
> 
> ...



that is very shitty list. 
First of all Hashirama beat shit out of Madaran in VOTE and then beat shit out of his Edo version.
Lol at Minato as third he is chuunin compered to rest on your list.
You have Nagato above Kabuto which is idiotic because Nagato is one of Kabutos puppets.


----------



## Senjuclan (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Whose character am i assassinating? Do you have no persona outside the forums? If the answer is, yes, than that that should be your "character", and like I said I assume you are a perfectly intelligent human being, no matter how you act on the forums as far as you fav-character is concerned.
> 
> In-fact it's the very fact that I know your not an idiot that makes it extremely obvious when your trolling and pretending to not grasp a concept that I explained several times in terms even a  kindergardener could understand - that's a complement and shouldn't be taken any other way.



Calling me names and ascribing me motives is character assassination

Furthermore, Your characterization of our disagreement is disingenuous at best. You come up with invalid excuses to ignore Kabuto's statement about Hashirama's power. Well, the problem is that statement is the most direct statement from Kishi that he retconned Hiruzen's power. Furthermore, you conveniently forget portrayal, the very idea you have been crusading for these days. Hashirama in part II as been portrayed as the absolute strongest, further lending credence to the idea that Kishi retconned his strength and consequently Hiruzen's. 

You guys cannot defeat my arguments so you resort to calling me a fanboy. Funny thing is you cannot provide a single instance of me "fanboying". Now, you would be tempted to say well the case of Prime Hiruzen is proof positive that you fanbody. Yet, if you were to poll the forum, the vast majority of people agree me with me. Are they all fanboys? How many dedicated fans does Hashirama have? I can only count two. The majority of people are objective in their assessment.


----------



## Ghost (Apr 5, 2014)

old hiruzen: probably yamato

prime hiruzen: two yamatos


----------



## Rai (Apr 5, 2014)

SM Hashirama + Multiple bijuus.:ignoramus


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 5, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> that is very shitty list.
> First of all Hashirama beat shit out of Madaran in VOTE and then beat shit out of his Edo version.
> Lol at Minato as third he is chuunin compered to rest on your list.
> You have Nagato above Kabuto which is idiotic because Nagato is one of Kabutos puppets.



Hashirama barely managed to beat VoTE Madara via wood clone. Dum Dum.

Hashirama never beat the shit out of Edo Madara dum dum. He only countered Preta path. Try again.

BM Minato chunnin compared to the rest?? Re-read manga. New Folder would correct you easily.

He also has Madara above kabuto and he was his ET summoning. So you were saying?

Revived one eyed rinnegan Madara > Hashirama.  Get over it.


----------

