# Marineford Jinbei VS Enies Lobby Rob Lucci



## Ekkologix (Jan 13, 2015)

The Fishman VS the Leopardman

*Location:* All area from Tower of Justice to Bridge of Hesitation.

*Distance:* Close Ranged (10-30m) on top of the Bridge.

*Mindset:* Bloodlusted.

*Conditions:*
*1)* Both characters are not limited to only staying on the Bridge.
*2)* Assume the Bridge cannot be destroyed. However, any other buildings can be destroyed including the Tower of Justice.
*3)* Both characters can do what they want (i.e Jinbei can go into the water and swim far away; or Lucci can Geppo very high above the ground; but both characters are bloodlusted so they will not run away from the fight).

*Intel:* Reputation.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*> Who takes the Cookie?*
*> Does the Leopard eats the Fish; or the Fish drowns the Leopard?*




*S2:* Add Kaku to Lucci
*S3:* Add Kaku and Jyabura to Lucci


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## Jouten (Jan 13, 2015)

Jinbei rapes


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 13, 2015)

Put Jimbei up against all of CP9 and he'd still win, so...yeah. Jimbei stomps. Badly.


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## Ekkologix (Jan 13, 2015)

Is pre ts Jinbei that strong? He stalemated pre Mera Mera no Mi Ace, but he is most likely below Ace with Mera Mera.

Shall I add Kaku or Kaku+Jyabura to Lucci?


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## Rob (Jan 13, 2015)

Lucci wins easily.

Don't let them fool you.


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## Luis209 (Jan 13, 2015)

Jinbei fought with Mera Mera no mi Ace.

Jinbei is a lot stronger than Lucci. He would win easily.


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## Rob (Jan 13, 2015)

Nu-uh


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## trance (Jan 13, 2015)

RobLucciGetsRaped.


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## Rob (Jan 13, 2015)

Negged


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## Ekkologix (Jan 13, 2015)

well i agree lucci would lose since pre ts jinbei is stronger than m3 level back then.

so i edited the OP to add kaku and jyabura.

man lucci is a bit downplayed tho...he can just fly off and rankyaku from the sky, and jinbei cant do anything about it...(inb4 jinbei go deep in the ocean....)


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## Ryuksgelus (Jan 13, 2015)

Jinbe would just snipe Lucci out of the sky with a water bullet.

You realize Ace had his Mera fruit long before he fought Jinbe? He used it against Jinbe and WB who appeared immediately after they both fell. 

Jinbe 2 years ago is no different than he is now.


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## ShadowReaper (Jan 13, 2015)

Jinbei in all 3.


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## Luke (Jan 13, 2015)

Jimbei fists the ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).


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## Rob (Jan 13, 2015)

Luke said:


> Jimbei fists the ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).


Ok, really negged now 


Don Usopp said:


> well i agree lucci would lose since pre ts jinbei is stronger than m3 level back then.
> 
> so i edited the OP to add kaku and jyabura.
> 
> man lucci is a bit downplayed tho...he can just fly off and rankyaku from the sky, and jinbei cant do anything about it...(inb4 jinbei go deep in the ocean....)




You didn't have to add them. 

And what is Jimbei going to do when he's getting bombarded with Rankakyu's?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 13, 2015)

Don Usopp said:


> well i agree lucci would lose since pre ts jinbei is stronger than m3 level back then.
> 
> so i edited the OP to add kaku and jyabura.


Why do this to CP9?


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## Dr. White (Jan 13, 2015)

This thread is sexual assault.


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## Ekkologix (Jan 13, 2015)

CP9 problem was that they appeared a bit too early in the story QQ

they contributed to the best arc ever so far imo....

anyway what is jinbei doing when the 3 of them fly way above and keep shooting rankyakus. he cant hit them with such a slow water attack...

if he came on land they will shaigan gang-bang him to the neck.


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## Gibbs (Jan 13, 2015)

Jinbei nearly 1 shotted Moriah, he's got this upper end of low diff at worst.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jan 13, 2015)

A wet kitty is a sad kitty.


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## Jouten (Jan 13, 2015)

The Phoenix King said:


> Jinbei nearly 1 shotted Moriah, he's got this upper end of low diff at worst.



'nough said

Jinbei ist about post-skip Luffy level


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## trance (Jan 13, 2015)

Roƅ said:


> Negged



Stay mad, nerd.


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## Dr. White (Jan 13, 2015)

Be nice       .


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## Luke (Jan 13, 2015)

Rob you're so full of shit


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## Gohara (Jan 13, 2015)

1. Jinbe wins with mid to high difficulty.  Jinbe is physically stronger than Lucci and arguably has better combat ability than him.  Lucci is faster and more agile than Jinbe, Jinbe's superior attack power and defense are more important here.

2. Jinbe wins with around high difficulty.  Kaku doesn't really add much here, but he should still make a notable difference.

3. Jinbe wins with high to extremely high difficulty.  The same as above really.

I'm not as impressed with Jinbe so far as some others on here are.  He's relatively one dimensional and doesn't really have any clear feats that put him on par with current Luffy nor even current Zoro IMO.  Still, he's well above Lucci's level.


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## Amol (Jan 14, 2015)

Jimbei near water source .
Well Jimbei wins easily.


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## Rob (Jan 14, 2015)

Trance said:


> Stay mad, nerd.





Luke said:


> Rob you're so full of shit



EL Lucci = Jozu-level tho 


Post-Skip Lucci tho


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## Ryuksgelus (Jan 14, 2015)

Gohara said:


> 1. Jinbe wins with mid to high difficulty.  Jinbe is physically stronger than Lucci and arguably has better combat ability than him.  Lucci is faster and more agile than Jinbe, Jinbe's superior attack power and defense are more important here.
> 
> 2. Jinbe wins with around high difficulty.  *Kaku doesn't really add much here, but he should still make a notable difference.*
> 
> ...



1. Lucci is not faster than Jinbe. Jinbe casually got in front of G2 Luffy when _he was originally standing behind him._ You really got to learn that just because someone's speed is emphasized doesn't mean they are faster than someone whose speed isn't. 

2. Makes no difference. Jinbe could dash towards them and choke hold both before they could even think to use soru and even if they do Jinbe would see exactly where they would be going same way Luffy could easily track Blueno with is eyes. They'd be moving even slower from Jinbe's point of view.

3. Water shots all day long....well more like 5-10 minutes. 

You think these three can give Vergo, Smoker, and Sanji problems now :/?


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## Lawliet (Jan 14, 2015)

Jinbei rapes all of CP9 combined, it's not even funny lol

He was equal to Mera Mera Ace, and low diffed Moriah, a fellow warlord. I really doubt there's a big difference between pre skip jinbei and post skip jinbei.


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## Rob (Jan 14, 2015)

There's a difference between Dead Jinbei and Alive Jinbei though


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## Ruse (Jan 14, 2015)

Jinbei pimp slaps Lucci into the afterlife.


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## Imagine (Jan 14, 2015)




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## Rob (Jan 14, 2015)

@Imoojin

Right?! These children actually think Jinbei wins


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## Imagine (Jan 14, 2015)

RobLucciGetsFisted


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## Ekkologix (Jan 14, 2015)

freaking pre ts jinbei was that strong?


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## Rob (Jan 14, 2015)

Nah, they're all wanking


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## Ryuksgelus (Jan 14, 2015)

Don Usopp said:


> freaking pre ts jinbei was that strong?



Well again why would pre-ts Jinbe be any different than Post Skip Jinbe?

He went from 44 to 46 and did nothing of note in those two years.


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## Dellinger (Jan 14, 2015)

Man sometimes the underestimation of Jinbe is ridiculous.


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## Shanks (Jan 14, 2015)

Yeah, the fishman takes Rob to lalalaland


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## Ekkologix (Jan 14, 2015)

Welp, Jinbei always seemed like a slow fatass fish. I still respect him though but....

I never thought he can take all CP9 together pre time skip 

Its too bad then that he didn't improve at all from pre ts to post ts. 

Was he waiting on the same spot for luffy for 2 years while eating and watching TV?


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## Nikushimi (Jan 14, 2015)

I've repped so many people in this thread... 

Keep it coming, guys.


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## randomsurfer (Jan 14, 2015)

Lets see, it took the whole Preskip strawhats crew to beat up one Pacifista and it wasn't easy either. The same crew that beat the CP9 several arcs ago. After the time skip, any of the monster trio can easily beat a Pacifista and Jimbei's power level is scaled to the monster trio level. I wonder who would win, Jimbei or the three CP9 memers.


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## Rob (Jan 14, 2015)

Niku, wank Lucci with me


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## Luke (Jan 14, 2015)

Rob's just salty his hero's gonna get penetrated by a fishman


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## Ekkologix (Jan 14, 2015)

randomsurfer said:


> Lets see, it took the whole Preskip strawhats crew to beat up one Pacifista and it wasn't easy either. The same crew that beat the CP9 several arcs ago. After the time skip, any of the monster trio can easily beat a Pacifista and Jimbei's power level is scaled to the monster trio level. I wonder who would win, Jimbei or the three CP9 memers.



was pre time skip jinbei a post time skip M3 level?
like pre ts jinbei ~ one of post ts M3?
and post ts jinbei ~ one of post ts M3?

> is it true jinbei didnt grow at all?


i still think  post ts jinbei ~ one of post ts m3 >> pre ts jinbei > one of pre ts m3

> am i the only one who think that?

like pre ts jinbei was around ace level. post ts M3 are already above that i assume. 
and i dont think any of the pre ts M3 can solo the 3 top CP9 ofc


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## Dr. White (Jan 14, 2015)

Jinbe Rocks Lucci harder than Kanye from '07


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## Ryuksgelus (Jan 14, 2015)

You don't think the current M3 can take on the top members of CP9 @_@? I think people thought that was the bare minimum we could expect from them after the TS.

Oda surpassed those expectations tremendously. They can one-shot Pacifista's and M3 but can't do the same to Lucci or their previous selves :/? 

Luffy moves faster in base now than he did previously in Gear 2. 

Zoro went from 36/108 to 360/1080 pound canons. 

-Sanji's power-up is mostly physical strength and he goes from almost breaking his leg on a PX to breaking one's neck.  They are all esily 5-10x as physically strong as they used to be and then comes their power-ups and techniques. 



Don Usopp said:


> Welp, Jinbei always seemed like a slow fatass fish. I still respect him though but....
> 
> I never thought he can take all CP9 together pre time skip
> 
> ...



People have different limits. He is older than Shanks or Doffy but simply never had their potential. 

No reason his power and skill are going to noticeably improve in 2 years when he has already trained and been fighting for 3 decades and some change.


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## Jouten (Jan 14, 2015)

How about if Jinbei isn't allowed to use his arms


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## SacredX (Jan 14, 2015)

I'm surprized this thread is still active.  Jinbei clears without much trouble.

It's unfortunate that the gap between CP9 and most of the OPverse is so wide.  It makes Aokiji's shock at CP9's defeat by the Straw Hats pretty misleading.


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## Gohara (Jan 16, 2015)

Ryuksgelus said:


> 1. Lucci is not faster than Jinbe. Jinbe casually got in front of G2 Luffy when _he was originally standing behind him._ You really got to learn that just because someone's speed is emphasized doesn't mean they are faster than someone whose speed isn't.
> 
> 2. Makes no difference. Jinbe could dash towards them and choke hold both before they could even think to use soru and even if they do Jinbe would see exactly where they would be going same way Luffy could easily track Blueno with is eyes. They'd be moving even slower from Jinbe's point of view.
> 
> 3. Water shots all day long....well more like 5-10 minutes.



1. What are you referring to here?  I looked up both of their fights and don't see where this happens.  May you please post the chapter you're referring to?  I'm also not sure what you're referring to with your other statement.  I didn't say anything about their speed being emphasized.

2. I don't agree that Jinbe is so much faster than them- if even faster than Lucci at all- that he can put them both in a choke hold before they even have time to think of what to do.

3. Maybe, but they're not going to just stand there and let him land blows on them.  I do think Jinbe will defeat them.  Just not as easily as you're implying here, IMO.


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## Rob (Jan 16, 2015)

Yea, Lucci is way faster guys


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 16, 2015)

Roƅ said:


> Yea, Lucci is way faster guys





Gohara said:


> 1. What are you referring to here?  I looked up both of their fights and don't see where this happens.  May you please post the chapter you're referring to?  I'm also not sure what you're referring to with your other statement.  I didn't say anything about their speed being emphasized.



*Spoiler*: __ 









Gohara said:


> I do think Jinbe will defeat them.  Just not as easily as you're implying here, IMO.


Jimbei is going to whup Lucci's ass so hard his descendants won't be able to sit down for the next few generations. Adding Kaku and Jyabura doesn't change a single thing.


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## tanman (Jan 16, 2015)

Umm...you post in this section a lot.
There's no way I'm believing that you thought anyone would think was a balanced fight.


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## Gohara (Jan 16, 2015)

@ Tea.

1. Thanks for posting the scan, but if that's all we see of it, then it doesn't really say much.  We don't know whether or not Jinbe was already preparing to stop Luffy once he realized Luffy was going to attack Blackbeard.  It's not really the same thing as Jinbe doing the same if they were fighting each other.  Also, Luffy was significantly battle worn at the time.  Furthermore, that involves reaction time rather than just moving speed, which is what I was referring to.

2. Adding Kaku and Jabra means, at the very least, they can serve as distractions which may allow Lucci to get multiple more blows in than he normally would.  They may also get some blows in with their long ranged techniques.  It also means that Jinbe has to expend more energy.


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## jNdee~ (Jan 16, 2015)

Jinbei can solo the CP9.


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## Haruhifan21 (Jan 16, 2015)

CP9 are such fodders that I blame Oda for mishandling power-levels.

CP9 should not have been written to be that weak.

If I was the writer I would have put members of a group like CP9 have a power level in the upper echelons of Vice Admiral level.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 16, 2015)

Shigan to the throat.


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## Canute87 (Jan 17, 2015)

Pretty sure three of the CP9 are higher in the animal kingdom than a damn fish.


CP9 takes the win.


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## MrWano (Jan 17, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Pretty sure three of the CP9 are higher in the animal kingdom than a damn fish.
> 
> 
> CP9 takes the win.



Pfft, whale shark > giraffe all day


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## Nikushimi (Jan 17, 2015)

Roƅ said:


> Niku, wank Lucci with me



No.


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## Rob (Jan 17, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Shigan to the throat.





Canute87 said:


> Pretty sure three of the CP9 are higher in the animal kingdom than a damn fish.
> 
> 
> CP9 takes the win.


That's more like it 


Nikushimi said:


> No.



Don't be a bitch, c'mon


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## Nikushimi (Jan 17, 2015)

Tell that to Lucci after you've scraped him off of Jimbei's sandals.


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## Suit (Jan 17, 2015)

The fishman that low-sold a magma fist isn't getting hurt anytime this side of the century by anyone in CP9. Seriously, these guys won't even warm Jinbei up.


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## trance (Jan 17, 2015)

You could put Lucci up against Galactus and Rolo would still say Lucci edges a win.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jan 17, 2015)

Gohara said:


> @ Tea.
> 
> 1. Thanks for posting the scan, but if that's all we see of it, then it doesn't really say much.  *We don't know whether or not Jinbe was already preparing to stop Luffy once he realized Luffy was going to attack Blackbeard.*  It's not really the same thing as Jinbe doing the same if they were fighting each other.  Also, Luffy was significantly battle worn at the time.  Furthermore, that involves reaction time rather than just moving speed, which is what I was referring to.
> 
> 2. Adding Kaku and Jabra means, at the very least, they can serve as distractions which may allow Lucci to get multiple more blows in than he normally would.  They may also get some blows in with their long ranged techniques.  It also means that Jinbe has to expend more energy.



1. That is hardly the only hint at Jinbe's speed. Jinbe can handle that level of speed. You think Luffy speed hasn't increased much in 2 years? Only a moderate boost just like you thin Luffy is only going to moderately grow when it's time to take on Teach. Even if you want to believe Jinbe had a running start on Luffy he still got in front and caught him. Still the equivalent of catching a bullet fire by a man in front of you. 

No he wasn't. Luffy was on Vigor Hormones and entirely healed up after his ordeal with Magellan. Are you seriously arguing Jinbe caught Luffy only because he got rocked by Teach or he was still suffering from Magellan or something? So Luffy was handicapped *all of MF* when the entire point of Vigor Hormones was that it made Luffy not feel fatigue or his injuries until Iva was forced to give him a second dose?

2. Their hits can't even slow Jinbe down.  Lao G is stronger than all of them and free hits from him literally did nothing to a *weakened *DJC. Jinbe>Weakened DJC. Lao G>>>Lucci but I guess you're going to disagree with the latter half of that?



rainyrabbit said:


> CP9 are such fodders that I blame Oda for mishandling power-levels.
> 
> CP9 should not have been written to be that weak.
> 
> If I was the writer I would have put members of a group like CP9 have a power level in the upper echelons of Vice Admiral level.



Honestly he should have just never stated they were the strongest CP9 in history and EL was impenetrable due to them. It should have never been touted as such an important place.

Makes no sense when we now know there are hundreds of individuals who could form a much smaller raiding party and rape the place and even Individuals who can do it by themselves.  The Punk Hazard baddies would steamroll the place. Kinemon's original group could do it.


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## Coruscation (Jan 17, 2015)

Aren't completely one-sided threads supposed to be removed? :s


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## Firo (Jan 17, 2015)

Saying the powergap is wide is underselling this. One punch from Jinbei wrecks Lucci.


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## Rob (Jan 17, 2015)

@Tranny

Well, Lucci could just speed-blitz up to galactus and like... rankakyu his brain or whatever. 

Yea. 

Mid diff.


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## Ekkologix (Jan 18, 2015)

was jinbei faster than g2 luffy?
or fast enough to fend off the 3 top cp9.

i see a cp9 downplay qq

ik how u feel rob....


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## Haruhifan21 (Jan 18, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Aren't completely one-sided threads supposed to be removed? :s



But why?

**


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## BlueDemon (Jan 18, 2015)

Are you guys serious? 4 pages for this?!

I mean, I understand Rob, he's got a role to play, but really now...


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## Rob (Jan 18, 2015)

I try


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## Luke (Jan 18, 2015)

Rob, you know what's funnier than you trying to pass off Lucci as a challenge to Jinbei? 

Your reasoning on why Kuma could beat Vista.


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## Gohara (Jan 19, 2015)

@ Ryuksgelus.

-Perhaps, but I'm not looking for vague hints that Jinbe may be fast in general.  I'm looking for specific feats clearly demonstrating that Jinbe is as fast as or faster than Lucci in terms of moving speed.  I also haven't said that Jinbe "can't handle Lucci's speed".  I myself said that Jinbe would win without too much trouble, so I clearly think Lucci isn't so much faster than Jinbe that he can avoid blows from Jinbe long enough to come close to defeating him.  I didn't necessarily say Jinbe had a head start.  I just noted that such is a possibility, which makes the feat vague when being used to suggest Jinbe is as fast as or faster than Lucci.

-I'm fairly certain Luffy fought some between being healed by Ivankov and that specific point, but I could be wrong.

-Lao G's blows did do something to Chinjao both when he kicked him in the initial brief showing of their fight and when Lao G defeated him.  I personally estimate that Lao G is more powerful than Lucci, but only by a small margin, and I think a good case can be made either way.  Still, Lao G's blows did do something to a battle worn Chinjao.  So that tells me that Lucci can do the same to a battle worn Chinjao.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jan 20, 2015)

Gohara said:


> @ Ryuksgelus.
> 
> -Perhaps, but I'm not looking for vague hints that Jinbe may be fast in general.  I'm looking for specific feats clearly demonstrating that Jinbe is as fast as or faster than Lucci in terms of moving speed.  I also haven't said that Jinbe "can't handle Lucci's speed".  I myself said that Jinbe would win without too much trouble, so I clearly think Lucci isn't so much faster than Jinbe that he can avoid blows from Jinbe long enough to come close to defeating him.  I didn't necessarily say Jinbe had a head start.  I just noted that such is a possibility, which makes the feat vague when being used to suggest Jinbe is as fast as or faster than Lucci.



What you don't seem to understand is that if he can't move faster than Lucci then he could never land a blow on post-skip Sanji, Zoro, Smoker, Luffy, Law, Diamante, Vergo, etc. Are you honestly telling me you can't gauge speed without Oda drawing blur lines and disappearing acts? You can't just conclude on your own that if Luffy is drastically faster than he was before and X character isn't overwhelmed by such speed then that obviously means they are in the same ballpark? I'm talking base speed here. Not saying Jinbe can move as fast as G2 Luffy but certainly base who is much faster than his pre-skip G2 speed.



> -I'm fairly certain Luffy fought some between being healed by Ivankov and that specific point, but I could be wrong.



_Some _being the keyword. He beat up some fodder, the Demon Guards, and Hannybal. Hardly anything that would tax his normal stamina levels let alone Vigor Hormone enhanced stamina.



> -*Lao G's blows did do something to Chinjao both when he kicked him in the initial brief *showing of their fight and when *Lao G defeated him. * I personally estimate that Lao G is more powerful than Lucci, *but only by a small margin, *and I think a good case can be made either way.  Still, Lao G's blows did do something to a battle worn Chinjao.  So that tells me that Lucci can do the same to a battle worn Chinjao.



Blood does not mean that kick damaged DCJ. Even Coby made Luffy bleed when they met after Enies Lobby.  Being hurt does not equal being damaged. Honestly no matter how powerful you get it's impossible for the inside of your mouth or lips to increase in durability. 

 I'm clearly talking about the *named attack* Lao G used on DCJ that did absolutely no damage. So little DCJ did not even bother to acknowledge he got attacked. Why would I be talking about Lao G surprise hitting DCJ in his *Superform
*? Obviously that form bridges the gap so the comparison to Lucci would no longer work.

You seriously must explain to me your incredibly strange power-scale. It simply makes no fucking sense. Do you look at every fight in a vacuum and completely ignore any clue Oda drops to reference how powerful characters have become? Lucci is clearly far below a Pacifista which is below someone like transformed Hody&Hyozo. Lao G is on their relative level. How do you not get or believe that or understand how much stronger that makes Lao G or the PH Dragon than Lucci? It's like you completely missed the point of Luffy owning Hody.  Hody was at worst Kaku level before eating ES. He is easily 10x as strong after ODing and that strength was still nothing special. It's close to the strength that tickled DCJ and less than what Big DCJ, Cav, Vergo, and others can dish out.


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## Mike S (Jan 20, 2015)

It's debateable whether or not Rob Lucci is even able to defeat a Pacifista, yet he's being matched against MF Jinbei - as if there is any reason for us to believe there is a difference between MF Jinbei and current Jinbei. :/


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## Ghost (Jan 20, 2015)

Shigan to the throat kills anyone.


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## Rob (Jan 20, 2015)

Saikyou knows


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## Gohara (Jan 20, 2015)

Ryuksgelus said:


> What you don't seem to understand is that if he can't move faster than Lucci then he could never land a blow on post-skip Sanji, Zoro, Smoker, Luffy, Law, Diamante, Vergo, etc.



I respectfully disagree.  You don't have to be as fast as someone or even in their league of speed to land blows on them.  Not to mention this implies that everyone those characters fight from here on out will be faster, perhaps even much faster, than Lucci.  I don't really recall any notable speed feats from Chinjao, and he was able to clash with Luffy.  I don't recall any notable speed feats from the Yeti Cool Brothers, and they landed (albeit surprise ones) blows on Zoro.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Are you honestly telling me you can't gauge speed without Oda drawing blur lines and disappearing acts?



I'm not sure what you're responding to here.



Ryuksgelus said:


> You can't just conclude on your own that if Luffy is drastically faster than he was before and X character isn't overwhelmed by such speed then that obviously means they are in the same ballpark?



It doesn't necessarily follow that a much faster character is going to automatically overwhelm the opponent.  We've seen multiple fights between characters where one character is much faster than another, and the faster character doesn't win very quickly.

Also, may you please post the scans of the feats you're comparing between pre time skip Luffy and post time skip Luffy?  I do agree that post time skip Luffy is faster than pre time skip Luffy, but given the massive gap in speed you put between them I would like to see your reasoning.



Ryuksgelus said:


> _Some _being the keyword. He beat up some fodder, the Demon Guards, and Hannybal. Hardly anything that would tax his normal stamina levels let alone Vigor Hormone enhanced stamina.



I'm not saying it hindered him significantly, but having several fights and running through Impel Down means he expended a notable amount of energy.  Also, it's not as if Luffy is actually healed.  The wounds are still there at the time.  Ivankov just makes it so Luffy temporarily forgets the pain of the wounds he has, although that doesn't mean that his muscles are in tip top shape at the time.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Blood does not mean that kick damaged DCJ.



His blow caused Chinjao's head to cock back, and caused Chinjao to visually express pain with blood flying out of him.  I don't see how that doesn't mean he damaged Chinjao.



Ryuksgelus said:


> I'm clearly talking about the *named attack* Lao G used on DCJ that did absolutely no damage.



The one I'm referring to above?  If so, then it damaged him.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Why would I be talking about Lao G surprise hitting DCJ in his *Superform
> *?



"Lao G is stronger than all of them and free hits from him literally did nothing to a weakened DJC"

You didn't specify what blows you were referring to.  Furthermore, the fact that Lao G does land a blow on Chinjao powerful enough to defeat him is important here, regardless of whether or not you were referring to it.

I'm including Lao G's most powerful form when I say I only see him as being a little more powerful than Lucci or, at most, between a little more and a decent amount more.



Ryuksgelus said:


> You seriously must explain to me your incredibly strange power-scale.



I will be more than happy to explain what you would like to know, but calling it strange is an easy response anyone can say to those whose power level rankings they disagree with.



Ryuksgelus said:


> It simply makes no fucking sense.



The same as above really.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Do you look at every fight in a vacuum and completely ignore any clue Oda drops to reference how powerful characters have become?



This is a rather vague question, and it's pretty misleading since "any clue Oda drops" is just in reference to your opinionated perceptions of certain feats and how they can rightfully be applied in comparisons.  I may be disagreeing with you on some things, but I'm not necessarily disagreeing with Oda on any of these points in this debate.  Indeed, what Oda thinks about these points are essentially the point of dispute.  Saying that Oda agrees with us is essentially just the same thing as saying we think we're correct on specific points, and while we may be, that on it's own doesn't serve as evidence of itself.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Lucci is clearly far below a Pacifista which is below someone like transformed Hody&Hyozo.





Ryuksgelus said:


> Hody was at worst Kaku level before eating ES.



I respectfully disagree that any of this is clearly the case.  I would be happy to assess any evidence you may provide, though.



Ryuksgelus said:


> It's like you completely missed the point of Luffy owning Hody.



I highly doubt the point of Luffy defeating Hody is because Oda knew we think Hody is on par with PXs who we think are significantly more powerful than Lucci, so that way we can come to the conclusion that Jinbe can defeat Lucci with low difficulty or less because Oda knew we think Jinbe is more powerful than Chinjao who we think wasn't damaged- despite blood and visual expressions of pain- by Lao G who we think is on par with PXs and Hody.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jan 21, 2015)

Gohara said:


> I respectfully disagree.  *You don't have to be as fast as someone or even in their league of speed to land blows on them.*  Not to mention this implies that everyone those characters fight from here on out will be faster,* perhaps even much faster, than Lucci. * I don't really recall any notable speed feats from Chinjao, *and he was able to clash with Luffy.*  I don't recall* any notable speed feats from the Yeti Cool Brothe*rs, and they landed (albeit surprise ones) blows on Zoro.



???????????? Ummmm. I am at a loss for words. Yes you do. I don't know what more there is to say. You cannot touch something that is much much faster than you. 

Absolutely. That is exactly how it is.

That is the *speed feat.*. How obtuse can you possible be :-/? Once again you're telling me you can *only judge* speed when Oda illustrates disappearing acts, after images, and speed lines? Why would you admit that you're thinking is that incredibly shallow?

The YCB disappeared from Luffy's direct line of sight when he tried to go after them. A pretty straight forward speed feat. Did you really just bring up a stealth hit :/? How more obtuse can you be with your comebacks. Obviously specific circumstances are specific.



> I'm not sure what you're responding to here.



I don't understand you at all. What is so confusing about this very simple and direct question. Can you judge a characters speed without *Oda emphasizing it * somehow? It seems obvious that you cannot do so so the question becomes why can't you?



> It doesn't necessarily follow that a much faster character is going to automatically overwhelm the opponent.  We've seen multiple fights between characters where one character is much faster than another, and the faster character doesn't win very quickly.



That means either A.) PIS/CiS saved the slower character(Kalifa v. Robin, Monet v. Luffy) 

or B.) the difference in speed was not large enough to make much of a difference. Every fight has a context. In the context of the thread the difference is extremely large.

Plenty of examples in OP where speed makes all the difference. Dellinger, Brook, Kizaru, Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Doffy, and others constantly overwhelm people with their speed. 



> Also, may you please post the scans of the feats you're comparing between pre time skip Luffy and post time skip Luffy?  I do agree that post time skip Luffy is faster than pre time skip Luffy, but given the massive gap in speed you put between them I would like to see your reasoning.



How about the fact his other stats increased dramatically :/? So he is easily 5x as physically strong(a low-ball estimate) but he is not even twice as fast as before :/? Hody's water shots can cross hundreds of meters in the time it takes a fishman to fall. Luffy easily evades these shots like nothing. CoO helps but you still need the speed to evade a hypersonic rail gun aimed at your face. 



> I'm not saying it hindered him significantly, but having several fights and running through Impel Down means *he expended a notable amount of energy.  *Also, it's not as if Luffy is actually healed.  The wounds are still there at the time.  *Ivankov just makes it so Luffy temporarily forgets the pain of the wounds he has, *although that doesn't mean that his muscles are in tip top shape at the time.



No it doesn't. He went out to fight for an hour+ straight suffering injuries and only ran out of steam after getting nailed by several powerful fighters. If you truly believe he expended a notable amount of energy his short trip from level 6 to level 4 then he definitely expended a lot more energy going from 4 to 1. How do you not understand how little sense this makes? MF was drastically more taxing but if even 10% of his energy was wasted at ID he'd never last an hour in all that chaos.

No Iva hormones makes it so Luffy is constantly flooded with adrenaline. Have you ever had an adrenaline rush? In real life it


> His blow caused Chinjao's head to cock back, and caused Chinjao to visually express pain with blood flying out of him.  I don't see how that doesn't mean he damaged Chinjao.




So you think a generic kick was more powerful than a named attack that Lao G had to prep?
The one I'm referring to above?  If so, then it damaged him.





> "Lao G is stronger than all of them and free hits from him literally did nothing to a weakened DJC"
> 
> You didn't specify what blows you were referring to.  Furthermore, the fact that Lao G does land a blow on Chinjao powerful enough to defeat him *is important here, regardless of whether or not you were referring to i*t.



No it is not. I'm comparing *normal Lao G* to Lucci. Not Lao G in his *super form.* How can you to tell me what is important in my own comparison? 



> I'm including Lao G's most powerful form when I say I only see him as being a little more powerful than Lucci or, at most, between a little more and a decent amount more.



????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Of course you're refuse to provide specifics of where each fighter fits on your scale. You literally make the least sense of any person I have ever talked to on a forum. I have talked to assholes, idiots, devil's advocates, trolls, and guys with incredibly weird point of views but I can at least follow their train of thought regardless of how asinine. You won the award for the least amount of sense. I cannot even begin to figure your rational for why you think this or that. Yes this is entirely relevant to the topic because you insistently refuse to elaborate where you ideas even come from then make the most irrelevant counter points.





> I will be more than happy to explain what you would like to know, but calling it strange is an easy response anyone can say to those whose power level rankings they disagree with.







> This is a rather vague question, and it's pretty misleading since "any clue Oda drops" is just in reference to your opinionated perceptions of certain feats and how they can rightfully be applied in comparisons.  I may be disagreeing with you on some things, but I'm not necessarily disagreeing with Oda on any of these points in this debate.  Indeed, what Oda thinks about these points are essentially the point of dispute.  Saying that Oda agrees with us is essentially just the same thing as saying we think we're correct on specific points, and while we may be, that on it's own doesn't serve as evidence of itself.



I love how you continue to pretend this argument is your versus me. Different than the typical one solitary person vs. the world schitch. Makes it sound like there are actually others who understand you and that is a goddamn lie but whatever you have to do to pretend you're not a weirdo pimpin.

You just not so cleverly sidestepped the questions of you asked once again. You have no idea wht clues I am even talking about yet you know they are just my opinionated perceptions. There is such things as leaving things open to interpretation but an author does have to lay out some things for his readers. 



> I respectfully disagree that any of this is clearly the case.  I would be happy to assess any evidence you may provide, though.



What happened to happily divulging your logical processes and interpretations?  Once again you sidestepped the question while pretending to be respectful. 

How exactly is it not clear Lucci a Pacifista? *How!* *How!* *How!* *How!* 



> *I highly doubt the point of Luffy defeating Hody is because Oda knew we think Hody is on par with PXs who we think are significantly more powerful than Lucci,* so that way we can come to the conclusion that Jinbe can defeat Lucci with low difficulty or less because *Oda knew we think Jinbe is more powerful than Chinjao *who we think wasn't damaged- despite blood and visual expressions of pain- by Lao G who we think is on par with PXs and Hody.



You _highly _doubt that Oda intended for OD Hody to be stronger than a Pacifista.  You_ highly _doubt Oda intended for us to think a Pacifista is stronger than Lucci. 

So let me get this straight. We're shown all the SH struggling against a PX. You disagree that that indicates the lone Luffy would struggle even more. 

Then you further disagree that a fighter( OD Hody) that took multiple blows from a post-skip Luffy is tougher than an enemy that could only take* one*?

So I guess you're also going to disagree that current Luffy's low end attacks are stronger than his strongest attacks pre-skip. Even though Oda clearly shows Luffy accomplishing more with a pistol than he could with a Bazooka pre-skip.

Why are you so hooked on Jinbe? I think Oda clearly intended for us to view it like this.

Post-skip Luffy>OD Hody>Pacifista>Lucci/pre-skip Luffy. Then it is a very simple to deduce that anyone physically comparable to Luffy can do what he did. In actuality Oda did flat out show us that Jinbe>OD Hody multiple times.  And should it be clear as day that OD Hody a Pacifista and that a Pacifista is tougher than Lucci.


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## Amol (Jan 21, 2015)

This got to be first unbalanced thread which lasted this long with this many responses .


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## Bernkastel (Jan 21, 2015)

I've seen the title of this thread pop up at the top of the page so many times but didn't bother to enter due to its title but since it reached 5 pages i thought i would give it a try .


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## Mike S (Jan 21, 2015)

Don Usopp said:


> was jinbei faster than g2 luffy?
> or fast enough to fend off the 3 top cp9.
> 
> i see a cp9 downplay qq
> ...


----------



## Rob (Jan 21, 2015)

ye but lucci's faster than jinbei


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## Gohara (Jan 21, 2015)

Ryuksgelus said:


> Yes you do. I don't know what more there is to say. You cannot touch something that is much much faster than you.



That's not necessarily true.  Sure, if you're much faster, it will likely take more tries to land a blow than if you're around the same speed- but by no means does it guarantee that you will not land a blow on your opponent.

Aside from the examples I've already listed:

-In Bleach, Tousen is much faster than Kenpachi, and yet Kenpachi lands blows on Tousen *while having his senses temporarily taken away from him*.

-In Bleach, Mayuri is significantly faster than Szayel, and yet even with prep time doesn't instantly defeat him.

-Enel's much faster than pre time skip pre Gears Luffy, and yet the latter lands many blows on the former.

-Dellinger's significantly faster than Bartolomeo, and yet doesn't instantly defeat him.

-Luffy is much faster than Moriah, and yet doesn't instantly defeat him.

-Brook is much faster than Jora, and yet doesn't instantly defeat her.

If you want, I can name more.



Ryuksgelus said:


> That is the *speed feat.*.



With all due respect, this is circular reasoning.  I can just as easily say Kenpachi's speed feat is landing blows on Tousen.  The point is outside of their fight, Kenpachi has little to no speed feats, and in fact going by the Data Book Tousen is much faster than Kenpachi.  Chinjao can clash with Luffy without him being in the same league as him in terms of speed.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Once again you're telling me you can *only judge* speed when Oda illustrates disappearing acts, after images, and speed lines? Why would you admit that you're thinking is that incredibly shallow?



Strawman.  I already asked what you were referring to with this, and you have yet to answer.



Ryuksgelus said:


> The YCB disappeared from Luffy's direct line of sight when he tried to go after them.



While shooting at him, if I remember correctly.  Also, if you're saying they're much faster than Luffy to the point that they can disappear from his line of sight without him being able to follow them, I can turn this around and say they defeated the Yeti Cool Brothers.  Even Franky in Monster Point Chopper's body lands a blow on one of them, if I remember correctly.  If, in fact, you want to claim that Luffy couldn't even follow their speed- I come out of this point with two examples instead of just one.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Did you really just bring up a stealth hit



They saw the Yeti Cool Brothers before they were attacked, and knew they were around the area even prior to seeing them.  If Zoro and Brook are so much faster than the Yeti Cool Brothers, that should be more than enough for them to own the Yeti Cool Brothers before the Yeti Cool Brothers have time to do anything.



Ryuksgelus said:


> What is so confusing about this very simple and direct question. Can you judge a characters speed without *Oda emphasizing it * somehow?



???

You: Can you judge a characters' speed without Oda emphasizing they're fast?

Me: What is this responding to?

You: What is so confusing about that question?

What's confusing about this question is that this isn't an actual response to anything I said, and yet you are not only asking it, but are even attempting to throw out an empty insult.  When I asked what you were responding to, you didn't really answer.  Give a valid explanation of the relevancy to this question, and I will happily answer it.



Ryuksgelus said:


> That means either A.) PIS/CiS saved the slower character(Kalifa v. Robin, Monet v. Luffy)



This is arbitrary reasoning.  It doesn't really serve as actual reasoning.



Ryuksgelus said:


> B.) the difference in speed was not large enough to make much of a difference. Every fight has a context. In the context of the thread the difference is extremely large.



Here we're specifically discussing the idea that Lucci is faster in terms of movement speed than Jinbe.  I never said the difference is as massive as you may be assuming in this claim nor even close to it.

As for your claim that Jinbe is much faster than Lucci, may you please post the scans proving this to be the case?  If you can prove it I will happily agree and adjust my view of these match ups accordingly.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Plenty of examples in OP where speed makes all the difference. Dellinger, Brook, Kizaru, Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Doffy, and others constantly overwhelm people with their speed.



Speed making all the difference may be a bit of an exaggeration, but I don't disagree that it can play a major part in a fight.  I'm disagreeing that it is the be all, end all, as you are implying here.  You seem to believe that the idea of current Luffy being much faster than Jinbe means the latter should be unable to land blows on the former.



Ryuksgelus said:


> How about the fact his other stats increased dramatically



This is just reiterating what you said before I asked that question.  It's just another vague way of saying post time skip Luffy is x amount of times faster than pre time skip Luffy because y.  I'm still trying to get you to explain what x and y are, exactly.  Saying "because his other stats increased dramatically" leads to:

You: Post time skip Luffy is x times faster than pre time skip Luffy because y.

Me: I agree that post time skip Luffy is faster than pre time skip Luffy, but I'm not sure I agree to the extent you're implying here.  Could you be more specific and show the scans proving this to be the case?

You: Post time skip Luffy is much faster than pre time skip Luffy because he became much faster, that's why.



Ryuksgelus said:


> So he is easily 5x as physically strong(a low-ball estimate) but he is not even twice as fast as before



1. May you please post the scans proving that post time skip Luffy is more than 5 times physically stronger than pre time skip Luffy?  I'm not saying that such isn't the case, but for the sake of relevancy your claims must first be proven.

2. Strawman.  I didn't say post time skip Luffy isn't at least twice as fast as pre time skip Luffy.  I'm asking you to specify the difference between them and prove it.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Hody's water shots can cross hundreds of meters in the time it takes a fishman to fall. Luffy easily evades these shots like nothing. CoO helps but you still need the speed to evade a hypersonic rail gun aimed at your face.



What are you basing the hundreds of meters on as well as how long it takes a Fishman to fall?  I, again, am not asking because I disagree- I'm asking to make sure these claims are true before I assess your reasoning.

Even assuming they are, how much of that can be quantified from being due to Observation Haki?  I doubt you know, and neither do I, making the feat unquantifiable.  Not to mention this doesn't even account for real life science/physics/measurements not always applying to Manga/Anime.



Ryuksgelus said:


> No it doesn't. He went out to fight for an hour+ straight suffering injuries and only ran out of steam after getting nailed by several powerful fighters.



You're only explaining that Luffy has a lot of energy.  You're not explaining how this means he didn't expend a notable amount of energy.  Notable doesn't mean a lot.  It just means more than very little.



Ryuksgelus said:


> No Iva hormones makes it so Luffy is constantly flooded with adrenaline. Have you ever had an adrenaline rush?



Adrenaline doesn't mean your muscles are in tip top shape.  It just allows them to function past their normal limits, but this isn't a fully healed Luffy we're talking about.  It's a Luffy who has to rely on those extra reserves because his normal reserves are essentially out of commission at the time.



Ryuksgelus said:


> So you think a generic kick was more powerful than a named attack that Lao G had to prep?



Strawman.  Regardless of any other opinion we may have- the fact of the matter is Lao G landed a blow on Chinjao that forced his head to cock back, forced him to express visual pain, and sent blood flying out of him.  This is on the contrary to you stating blows from Lao G literally did nothing to Chinjao.

That being said, what blow are you referring to when you say Lao G used a technique that he prepped?  If you mean the one that defeated Chinjao, then why are you implying that it did less damage than the one I'm referring to?



Ryuksgelus said:


> No it is not. I'm comparing *normal Lao G* to Lucci. Not Lao G in his *super form.*



Yes it is, because I'm asking for proof that Lao G at full power is significantly more powerful than Lucci at full power.



Ryuksgelus said:


> How can you to tell me what is important in my own comparison?



With all due respect, aside from the explanation I posted above, your post is filled with you telling me what I think and what my experiences are (I counted around 8 such claims).  It seems odd to make this claim given that, and considering I'm the one asking you for proof, it's reasonable that I would point out the relevancy of Base Lao G damaging Chinjao when I'm asking for you to prove that a fully powered Lao G is significantly more powerful than a fully powered Lucci.


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## Gohara (Jan 21, 2015)

Ryuksgelus said:


> Of course you're refuse to provide specifics of where each fighter fits on your scale.



???

You didn't ask me a specific question.  I said I will be happy to explain what it is you would like to know, but you haven't told me what it is you would like to know specifically.  I can't dodge a question that doesn't yet exist.  



Ryuksgelus said:


> Yes this is entirely relevant to the topic because you insistently refuse to elaborate where you ideas even come from then make the most irrelevant counter points.



Aside from the explanation I gave above, it's irrelevant.  It was basically just a block of vague and empty insults that essentially just translates to you disagreeing with me.  I've simply asked you to prove Jinbe is much faster than Lucci or that he's even as fast as him.  Coming to me with "Post time skip Luffy is x amount of times faster than pre time skip Luffy because y.  Therefore no one post time skip can be anywhere around Lucci's league of speed or less and expect to land any blows on anyone who can land blows on post time skip Luffy" just isn't going to cut it.  Especially when there are many examples of characters landing blows on characters significantly faster than them.  If you want to insult me, go right on ahead.  It just doesn't change that you have yet to provide proof for your claims.



Ryuksgelus said:


> I love how you continue to pretend this argument is your versus me. Different than the typical one solitary person vs. the world schitch.



I'm not really sure where you got the idea that I was saying anything about how many people agree with who.  This debate, in fact, so far has just only had 3 people involved- but that's irrelevant.  Whether there are 10 people agreeing with me and no one agreeing with you or there are 10 people agreeing with you and no one agreeing with me, the merit of your claims are dependent solely on the evidence and/or proof you provide.  So far, you have yet to provide any.  If 2 other people come and validate your claims with proof, I will agree and adjust my ranking of Lucci accordingly.  If 10 people come and just post the same things you have, I will not agree with you until your claims are proven.  Thinking something is correct based on majority opinion (especially when it only includes a small sample size as one forum- let alone one thread in one section in one forum) is argumentum ad populum.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Makes it sound like there are actually others who understand you



Empty insult.  To even say that within the scope of this forum is clearly inaccurate, and even assuming that were the case, what you're saying here means you think views on One Piece power levels often found on this forum are consistent with those outside of this forum- which I can say isn't really true at all.  That's not to say there aren't some consistent views or that even some of the inconsistent views are incorrect, but to act as if they are completely consistent all around is with all due respect intellectually dishonest.  Therefore I can rightfully only perceive this as an empty insult.



Ryuksgelus said:


> You just not so cleverly sidestepped the questions of you asked once again.



Thanks for the compliment, but I clearly explained why I didn't answer the question.  Sidestepping the question implies I didn't even attempt to address it, which is just plain untrue.  I clearly addressed it by pointing out the vague and misleading aspects of the question.  Until you better define your question and don't attempt to mislead me by claiming that me disagreeing with you is the same thing as disagreeing with Oda, I'm not going to answer it since I don't know exactly what question I'm answering.



Ryuksgelus said:


> You have no idea wht clues I am even talking about yet you know they are just my opinionated perceptions.



Every comparison I've seen you make so far (including those in this debate), and this extends to multiple debates we've had, have just been opinionated perceptions of feats and events that you have said are clues that Oda has given us.  So indeed I'm going to assume that until you give me a reason to think otherwise.



Ryuksgelus said:


> What happened to happily divulging your logical processes and interpretations?  Once again you sidestepped the question while pretending to be respectful.



Nothing has happened to it.  The offer is still on the table.  You just have yet to ask me a specific question.  I can't sidestep a question I haven't yet been asked.  As for pretending to be respectful, I'm not sure what makes you think otherwise.  I have been very respectful towards your opinions and remain such.  I'm open to the possibility that you may provide proof of your claims, and have said if you do I will happily agree and adjust my ranking of Lucci accordingly.  My apologies if you think something I said came off as disrespectful.  If so, what are you referring to?  Perhaps I can rephrase what I said, because I certainly don't intend for anything I'm saying to come off as disrespectful to you. 



Ryuksgelus said:


> How exactly is it not clear Lucci a Pacifista?



There's neither proof nor even strong evidence of it, unless you provide it.



Ryuksgelus said:


> You _highly _doubt that Oda intended for OD Hody to be stronger than a Pacifista.



I doubt anything he's done has meant to convey that, but at the same time I do happen to agree that Monster Hody is likely more powerful than a PX, although if so I'm not sure it's to the extent you think it is.  Keep in mind that Luffy fought Monster Hody while fighting underwater, worrying about Noah, and protecting Shirahoshi.



Ryuksgelus said:


> You_ highly _doubt Oda intended for us to think a Pacifista is stronger than Lucci.



Well, he certainly hasn't done anything to make this clear, so yes I do doubt such that he has ever attempted to clearly convey that.  However, that's not quite what I said.  I'm referring to the big leap of many different events (some of which are your own opinions) connecting just for the purpose of Oda attempting to tell us that your conclusion just happens to be the case.



Ryuksgelus said:


> We're shown all the SH struggling against a PX. You disagree that that indicates the lone Luffy would struggle even more.



This is a bit of an exaggeration.  The Straw Hat Pirates did struggle against a PX- but it was almost entirely Luffy, a battle worn Zoro, and Sanji doing much.  After the fight, most of them were in relatively good condition.  I can see the same effort being taken for them to defeat Lucci while Zoro is significantly battle worn, with them being in the same condition after the fight, if not even in worse condition.  I'm fairly certain it was stated and/or implied that Lucci was capable of defeating all the Straw Hat Pirates outside of Luffy combined when most of them were in relatively decent condition at the time.

To answer your question, though, no.  I do, however, think there's a strong possibility that Luffy could have defeated a PX on his own at the time.  Just that he would be significantly battle worn after defeating it, if not heavily battle worn.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Why are you so hooked on Jinbe? I think Oda clearly intended for us to view it like this.



Which is fine.  Feel free to view it how you want.  However, you're the one who seems to have an issue with my views on the matter.  As such, it's only fair that I'm going to ask you to prove your claims.  I'm not going to agree with you unconditionally.



Ryuksgelus said:


> In actuality Oda did flat out show us that Jinbe>OD Hody multiple times.



Maybe, but when did he show us that Jinbe is far above Monster Hody's league?


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## Baroxio (Jan 25, 2015)

Gohara said:


> Maybe, but when did he show us that Jinbe is far above Monster Hody's league?




*Spoiler*: __ 








If you want, there's also:


*Spoiler*: __ 










No matter how you slice it, Oda's made it pretty clear that Jinbei >> Monster Hody.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jan 25, 2015)

Baroxio said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't bother. 

Any time _anyone_ connects any simple dots he pretends it is just your(our) imagination/individual interpretation of what the information is supposed to mean and that any thing contrary to what is seemingly( *more like explicitl*y) being presented to us is 100% valid and as likely.  

He'll probably counter with this just proves he is more skilled and that stamp is probably weaker than everything Luffy threw at Hody.


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## Gohara (Jan 25, 2015)

@ Baroxio.

Thanks for the scans, but they really only demonstrate that Jinbe is more skilled at Fishman Karate.  This doesn't necessarily mean Jinbe is far above Monster Hody's league in terms of overall power.  League is relatively wide encompassing.  I think Kuma is significantly more powerful than Moriah.  I don't see Kuma defeating Moriah with any less than low to mid difficulty.  Kuma is well above Moriah's level IMO.  However, I wouldn't say he's far above Moriah's league.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Any time _anyone_ connects any simple dots he pretends it is just your(our) imagination/individual interpretation of what the information is supposed to mean and that any thing contrary to what is seemingly( *more like explicitl*y) being presented to us is 100% valid and as likely.



You say they're simple dots/obvious/100% valid/etc., and yet you're unable to prove them when asked.  Would I go so far as to say you're imagining things?  No, but they are absolutely your individual interpretation.  Remember, it's not me who has an issue with your opinions on these match ups, it's you who has a problem with mine.  Therefore it's only fair that I ask you to prove your claims.


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## Dellinger (Jan 25, 2015)

There's no point in arguing with Gohara.He will stick to his faulty opinion no matter what.


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## Gohara (Jan 25, 2015)

With all due respect, "you should concede because I have a good point" isn't much of an argument.  Associating your inability to prove someone wrong in a specific topic with that person not accepting proof is faulty and very assumptive.


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## Etherborn (Jan 25, 2015)

Jinbe beats _pre-timeskip_ Rob Lucci with low difficulty.

And kills any version of Hody very easily.


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## Dellinger (Jan 25, 2015)

Gohara said:


> With all due respect, "you should concede because I have a good point" isn't much of an argument.  Associating your inability to prove someone wrong in a specific topic with that person not accepting proof is faulty and very assumptive.



You're being proven wrong all the time yet you refuse to concede.That's your own fault.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jan 26, 2015)

Gohara said:


> @ Baroxio.
> You say they're simple dots/obvious/100% valid/etc.,* and yet you're unable to prove them when asked.*  Would I go so far as to* say you're imagining things?*  No, but they are absolutely your individual interpretation.  Remember, it's not me who has an issue with your opinions on these match ups, it's you who has a problem with mine.  Therefore it's only fair that I ask you to prove your claims.



I and others have done this many times so stop that nonsense.. You take *nothing as proof *and listen to absolutely no reasoning. You simply respond with increasingly strange counter points no matter how simple the initial point being made was. I read only the first line of your last response to me and clearly saw how an incredibly lost cause you are. 

Dude, *no matter what people respond to you *with you act like they pieced their information together out of nothing. It is quite impossible to have a discussion with someone who cannot even agree on the absolutely most simple premises. The argument with you always becomes "that is not obvious/clear/simple/straight forward/common sense/basic/ at all", no matter what is being said.


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## DavyChan (Jan 26, 2015)

Amol said:


> This got to be first unbalanced thread which lasted this long with this many responses .



lol, right? XD  .


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## Baroxio (Jan 26, 2015)

Perhaps, but at the same time, we saw how Jimbei was more than capable of reacting to, and blocking Luffy's attacks, even in Gear 2.



When the same Luffy fought Monster Hody, Hody could barely react to Base Luffy's speed, and was basically tossed around like a rag puppet until Noah appeared and they took the battle to the sea.



Said picture is before Luffy started using Haki by the way. There are much more, however adding them would skew the comparison since Luffy didn't use Haki against Jinbei.

So all in all, I would say that Oda has portrayed Luffy to be roughly equivalent to Jinbei, (if not a little below, since Jinbei landed a solid blow and Luffy's hit was blocked) whereas Oda portrays Luffy as way above Hody, to the point where Hody needed lopsided conditions for the match to even be close (i.e. being underwater).

That said, even ignoring Hody, Jinbei has the ability to react to Post-timeskip G2 Luffy (actually outspeeding pre-timeskip G2 Luffy, which Luuchi couldn't do), and his Pre-timeskip punch was equivalent to Luffy's Gear 3 punch, which knocked out Lucchi during the time he had it active. In other words, Jinbei should be far stronger than Lucchi based on those feats alone.


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## Dr. White (Jan 26, 2015)

Bara don't waste your time. I speak from experience.


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## Gohara (Jan 26, 2015)

@ Baroxio.

Jinbe was already in a stance ready to defend while Luffy was taking the time to transform into Gear 2nd.  Luffy just goes straight ahead at Jinbe, whereas he wasn't depicted doing the same against Hody, as he stopped to attack his subordinates first and came at him in who knows what direction.  Hody also goes on to land a blow on Luffy right after that (granted it didn't do much to Luffy), suggesting he was not entirely incapable of keeping up with him.  You say Luffy threw Hody around like a ragdoll until Noah arrived, but very little happened between the scans you posted and when Noah arrived.  Also, keep in mind, this wasn't Monster Hody at full power.  He transforms again later on.  A fully powered Monster Hody is who we're discussing here.

I do agree that this comparison suggests Jinbe is superior to Monster Hody.  Just not to the point that I would say Jinbe is far above Monster Hody's league.

Against Jinbe, Luffy only uses Gear 2nd.  Between that and the fight between Luffy and Jinbe being relatively short, I don't really think this demonstrates Jinbe to be around Luffy's level of power.  He could be, but I don't think that's enough to clearly suggest that.  I don't have an issue with anyone having this opinion, but I don't think it can rightfully be used to support another opinion unless they're presenting it as their opinion.



White Hawk said:


> You're being proven wrong all the time yet you refuse to concede.That's your own fault.



There's no real substance to this claim.  Many think they're posting facts when they aren't.  I'll need more than your word.  Especially considering we disagree with each other a lot.



Ryuksgelus said:


> I and others have done this many times so stop that nonsense



I asked you for proof, and you came back with strawmen and claiming I think things I don't actually think.  You also came back with just giving your opinion on other characters' level of power, such as Lao G.  You used your opinion on how powerful Lao G is in comparison to a PX, who you were giving your opinion on as well in regards to power.  Additionally, you exaggerated how much the Straw Hat Pirates struggled against a PX, or at least didn't present it in the proper context.

Additionally, let's break down your points:

-Initially you claimed that anyone who is only around as fast as pre time skip Luffy can't hope to keep up with someone who can somewhat follow post time skip Luffy's speed.  Upon you making this claim, I agreed that post time skip Luffy is faster than pre time skip Luffy, but I asked you to prove the difference is so great that anyone who is only around as fast as pre time skip Luffy can't keep up with someone who can follow post time skip Luffy's speed.  *Additionally, I pointed out around a handful of examples of fights in which a character was able to land a blow on a character much faster than them*.  You didn't really respond to these examples and basically brushed off my point by just repeating how "obvious" it is that your claim is factual despite not even satisfying even an ounce of the burden of proof that is on you.

-You presented the Straw Hat Pirates vs. a PX in such a way that you were implying they would not struggle that much against Lucci.  I pointed out how it was mainly the Monster Trio doing most of the work against the PX, and pointed out that Zoro was significantly battle worn going in and that they were mostly in decent condition after that fight.  I pointed out how I can see Lucci giving them the same, if not even more difficulty.  To support that (although it doesn't necessarily  need to be supported to be not be any less valid than your claim), I even brought up how I seem to recall it being stated or implied that if it wasn't for Luffy, Lucci (a battle worn one at that if I remember correctly) would have been able to defeat the other Straw Hat Pirates combined despite Zoro not being as battle worn going into it as he was against the PX.  You didn't respond to this point and, again, basically just brushed it off by reiterating how obvious you think it is that your conclusions here are factual.

-You stated Base Lao G is far more powerful than a fully powered Lucci.  I asked you what proof you have for this, but you once again just claimed it was obvious.

-You stated Jinbe is far above Monster Hody's league of power.  This is a pretty big claim, because that is a massive gap.  I have no issue with thinking Jinbe is well above Monster Hody in terms of power, but there are more and bigger apparent gaps between two characters who are not as far apart as you're suggesting with Jinbe and Monster Hody.  So, I asked you to prove that, and you once again claimed it was obvious.

In what way, shape, or form is *any* of that proof?

As for "others", only one other person is actually addressing my questions (and even then it's just one of my questions).  Tea just gave the scan to the feat you were referring to, but I addressed it.



Ryuksgelus said:


> You take *nothing as proof *



This isn't the least bit true and you are basically saying it entirely out of emotion.  I take many things as proof.  Since I don't accept your opinions on other power comparisons as proof I must just not want to accept them?  That's not much of an argument, and everyone may as well just say this any time someone disagrees with them.



Ryuksgelus said:


> and listen to absolutely no reasoning.



Again, this claim is made out of emotion.  I clearly addressed your reasoning, even listing examples on the contrary to your claims that you mostly have yet to respond to, and am even recapping where I have addressed your reasoning in this post.



Ryuksgelus said:


> You simply respond with increasingly strange counter points



How so?



Ryuksgelus said:


> I read only the first line of your last response to me and clearly saw how an incredibly lost cause you are.



Indeed.  If you expected me to unconditionally accept your claims without asking for evidence, I am a lost cause.  Any time you take issue with an opinion of mine, I'm going to ask for evidence of why I must discard my opinion and agree with yours.  I suggest either being okay with others have opinions or being prepared to prove them wrong when you take issue with them.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Dude, *no matter what people respond to you *with you act like they pieced their information together out of nothing.



This is just not the least bit true.  I clearly addressed what information you did piece together.  If you just left it as it being your opinion, then I would have been fine with it.  However, those pieces were all opinions, and opinions on other power comparisons don't cut it when you're being asked to prove what you claim or at least present to be objective facts.

No matter what people respond with?  I highly doubt you have the data to make such a claim considering you've seen me in less than .000000000001% of debates I've been in.  I've had claims proven in debates with me and even claims I've made proven wrong.  Just because you aren't able to prove your claims in this debate doesn't mean others aren't in other debates with me.



Ryuksgelus said:


> It is quite impossible to have a discussion with someone who cannot even agree on the absolutely most simple premises.



Simple premise: Post time skip Luffy is faster than pre time skip Luffy.  This only involves one obvious variable.

Not a simple premise: Post time skip Luffy is so much faster than pre time skip Luffy that anyone who can reasonably keep up with post time skip Luffy is also so much faster than anyone around as fast as pre time skip Luffy that they won't be dealt any blows by them.  Unclear variables: An unsupported claim of a specific massive difference in speed between post time skip Luffy and pre time skip Luffy (1); Anyone who can reasonably keep up with post time skip Luffy- we have yet to see post time skip Luffy use much speed against Jinbe (2); A character won't be able to land a blow on a character much faster than them (3).  That's 3 unclear variables thrown together to make one unsupported premise.  Making it even less of a simple and clearly correct premise is that I named counter examples to the 3rd unclear variable in which a character landed a blow on a much faster character.

Also, I'm not sure why you're attempting to make it seem like I'm the only one who questions whether the difference between Jinbe and Lucci is as big as you seem to think it is.  I've seen and can even cite other opinions on the match up that disagree with yours, with even one other person in this thread being surprised that some think the difference between them is as big as you do.  I don't think the amount of people who agree with an opinion makes it correct, but your attempt to make it sound like I'm the only person who needs to see more clear evidence or proof of your claims is false.



Ryuksgelus said:


> The argument with you always becomes "that is not obvious/clear/simple/straight forward/common sense/basic/ at all", no matter what is being said.



Perhaps because you often make claims of objectivity of certain points when there is little to no clear evidence supporting them and then call others out for having a different opinion than you.  Many people claim what they are saying is factual even when they're not.  However, many who do that will adjust their claims to something more opinionated.  Many don't, and attempt to blame the person asking them for proof.  I, too, use to throw around claims of fact when they were not actually factual.  I realized that doing that was disrespectful to others' opinions and that perhaps just not as much is factual as I initially thought.  Do keep in mind that I didn't take issue with your views on this match up.  It was you who took issue with mine.

You want to go on thinking the difference between Jinbe and Lucci is bigger than what I think?  Go right on ahead.  I respect your views and it's possible you're right.  You want me to agree with you?  Then give me good reasoning to.  It's as simple as that.


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