# Kyoraku Shunsui (Bleach) vs Kakashi Hatake (Naruto)



## Divell (Jul 18, 2016)

vs


Rules

At their peak.
Both begin in basic abilities.
Energies from their respective series.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 18, 2016)

^No, that's Takasugi

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Divell (Jul 18, 2016)

Imagine said:


> Kamui.


evades or


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## Imagine (Jul 18, 2016)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> ^No, that's Takasugi


They're not ready for Takasugi's terrorism.


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## Sougo (Jul 18, 2016)

Another Bleach vs Naruto thread. 

Brilliant.


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## Revan Reborn (Jul 18, 2016)

Sougo said:


> Another Bleach vs Naruto thread.
> 
> Brilliant.



At least its not another lille/ywhach thread.


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## Pocalypse (Jul 18, 2016)

Is this DMS Kakashi with perfect Susano'o when you say peak of his powers? If so he stomps. DMS Kakashi is way above Shunsui's belt. 

Any other versions of Kakashi and Shunsui wins.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Gemmysaur (Jul 18, 2016)

What Pocalypse said.


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## Drake (Jul 18, 2016)

DMS Kakashi destroys him.

Aside from that, Kakashi may be able to win without DMS. He first uses Shadow Clones to confuse Shunsui, then uses Kamui to kill him. Kakashi's War Arc Kamui was pretty fast, and if Shunsui doesn't know that Kakashi is capable of such a move and doesn't know which Kakashi it will come from, then he probably loses to it.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 18, 2016)

If kyoraku use his bankai he can't just lose, he can make a draw with the damage reflection


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## Sablés (Jul 18, 2016)

Kamui was fairly similar to Lille's shit and Shunsui had no problems handling him until the intangibility came into play. Shunsui should take regular Kakashi handily, DMS stomps.


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## John Wayne (Jul 18, 2016)

Can't DMS Kakashi solo Bleach gauntlet style?


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## Sougo (Jul 18, 2016)

John Wayne said:


> Can't DMS Kakashi solo Bleach gauntlet style?


Yeah, he should be able to clear, I'm not sure about Lille though.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 18, 2016)

I really don't think he can clear Bleach, there are many people he can't beat/kill and they can kill when he isn't intangible and other can deal with his intangibility


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## John Wayne (Jul 18, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> there are many people he can't beat/kill



Kamui shurikens ignore durability so who is it that he can't kill?


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 18, 2016)

John Wayne said:


> Kamui shurikens ignore durability so who is it that he can't kill?


I don't think he can kill Gerard, Lille, Gremmy can create clones, Bach, Aizen and all of them can return if send in another dimension. For this fight, Kyoraku with his bankai reflect the damage against the enemy so if he get killed even kakashi would die, and he can hit him even while intangible with his last strike of the bankai


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## Divell (Jul 18, 2016)

People, people, please, Kakashi DMS vs Kyoraku is a good match, speed near equal and hax can counter each other, the only game changers are Bankai and Susano'o. Only difference in Bankai, Kakashi can't kill him without killing himself. And he will be seriously weakened with it. As long as neither go Bankai or Perfect Susano'o this is a good battle, when they go full power, then the battle becomes one-sided to one or the other.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## Drake (Jul 18, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> I don't think he can kill Gerard, Lille, Gremmy can create clones, Bach, Aizen and all of them can return if send in another dimension.



Pretty sure he can still Kamui Gerard and Lille. Gremmy could potentially beat him, but based on what we've seen, Gremmy is too retarded to pull it off. Aizen gets wrecked.

The only one who might be able to beat DMS Kakashi is Yhwach.


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## Lord Trollbias (Jul 18, 2016)

Pocalypse said:


> Is this DMS Kakashi with perfect Susano'o when you say peak of his powers? If so he stomps. DMS Kakashi is way above Shunsui's belt.
> 
> Any other versions of Kakashi and Shunsui wins.


Yup yup. No need to drag the thread on any longer.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 18, 2016)

Drake said:


> Pretty sure he can still Kamui Gerard and Lille. Gremmy could potentially beat him, but based on what we've seen, Gremmy is too retarded to pull it off. Aizen gets wrecked.
> 
> The only one who might be able to beat DMS Kakashi is Yhwach.


He can kamui gerard but that won't kill him, on Lille it wouldn't passa his intangibility I think. Gremmy can easily survive until he run out of time or send him in the space. Aizen same as gerard, he won't die for that and then he would kill kakashi


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## Drake (Jul 18, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> He can kamui gerard but that won't kill him, on Lille it wouldn't passa his intangibility I think. Gremmy can easily survive until he run out of time or send him in the space. Aizen same as gerard, he won't die for that and then he would kill kakashi



I still think Lille would get sucked up, regardless of whether or not he is intangible. He is being pulled in by gravity and is being sent through a portal to a different dimension, so he doesn't really need to be touched. And yes, Kamui doesn't kill them, but it essentially defeats them.

Gremmy should be able to win, but he should have also been able to beat Kenpachi. He would win if you eliminate PIS/CIS, though.

As for Aizen, he'd lose to Perfect Susano'o. As far as I know, Aizen can't escape from Kamui land, and he can't really do anything to Kakashi.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 18, 2016)

Drake said:


> I still think Lille would get sucked up, regardless of whether or not he is intangible. He is being pulled in by gravity and is being sent through a portal to a different dimension, so he doesn't really need to be touched. And yes, Kamui doesn't kill them, but it essentially defeats them.
> 
> Gremmy should be able to win, but he should have also been able to beat Kenpachi. He would win if you eliminate PIS/CIS, though.
> 
> As for Aizen, he'd lose to Perfect Susano'o. As far as I know, Aizen can't escape from Kamui land, and he can't really do anything to Kakashi.


I don't really think that a complete intangible character would be sliced by something like that, there isn't anything to slice in the first place. Even then... What that would do? If he get sliced and killed by that he can turn back, if he get send to another dimension he can turn back. Kamui isn't an "I win button" he can bypass intangibility but he damages the enemy.

Gremmy lost trying to copy kenpachi's body, with kakashi he don't risk even with PIS/CIS.

Every shinigami/quincy/hollow can use dimensional traveling, they have even some dimensional busting feats and feats of turning back from dimension (ichigo going bankai and regular espada with the caja negacion). Aizen can put Kakashi in the illusion, then kakashi is in danger because he isn't always intangible as seen with obito

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Drake (Jul 18, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> I don't really think that a complete intangible character would be sliced by something like that, there isn't anything to slice in the first place. Even then... What that would do? If he get sliced and killed by that he can turn back, if he get send to another dimension he can turn back. Kamui isn't an "I win button" he can bypass intangibility but he damages the enemy.



He can aim at Lille's body and suck him in. It's gravity that does the work, and Lille is still affected by that.



> Gremmy lost trying to copy kenpachi's body, with kakashi he don't risk even with PIS/CIS.



Well, he's always at risk of it considering he could have defeated Kenpachi in one or two moves if he was actually trying. But like I said, if we assume that Gremmy isn't being an idiot, then he is one of the most overpowered characters ever and can easily defeat Kakashi.



> Every shinigami/quincy/hollow can use dimensional traveling, they have even some dimensional busting feats and feats of turning back from dimension (ichigo going bankai and regular espada with the caja negacion). Aizen can put Kakashi in the illusion, then kakashi is in danger because he isn't always intangible as seen with obito



Yukio's dimension was a confined box contained within another dimension, so I don't think Ichigo busting that is comparable to Kamui land. As for the Caja Negacion, Grimmjow mentioned that it was meant for Fracciones, which explains why Ulquiorra was able to escape so easily. As far as I know, the only people who can escape from Kamui are other Kamui users.

As for Aizen, his Kyoka Suigetsu won't work against Kakashi's Sharingan.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 19, 2016)

Drake said:


> He can aim at Lille's body and suck him in. It's gravity that does the work, and Lille is still affected by that.


And why gravity should work? In the Soul King palace people normally can't even fly (with the usuall method) and he was still flying. And really, I'm not sure a intangible man will be affected by gravity. He can't be killed by that even if it works



Drake said:


> Well, he's always at risk of it considering he could have defeated Kenpachi in one or two moves if he was actually trying. But like I said, if we assume that Gremmy isn't being an idiot, then he is one of the most overpowered characters ever and can easily defeat Kakashi.


Well, it's true that he could use his power in a better way but in any case even having always many clone would help. That's all he need to survive



Drake said:


> Yukio's dimension was a confined box contained within another dimension, so I don't think Ichigo busting that is comparable to Kamui land. As for the Caja Negacion, Grimmjow mentioned that it was meant for Fracciones, which explains why Ulquiorra was able to escape so easily. As far as I know, the only people who can escape from Kamui are other Kamui users.


Well I don't see why they shouldn't be able to destroy it or escape as they did. Caja negacion put the target in another dimension forever and people with enough reiatsu can break free, it's one of the many resistance of who use reiatsu. I don't even remember the kamui dimension to be very big



Drake said:


> As for Aizen, his Kyoka Suigetsu won't work against Kakashi's Sharingan.


Having only some degree of resistance against illusion can't help kakashi as it didn't helped other characters in Bleach


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## shade0180 (Jul 19, 2016)

Drake said:


> He can aim at Lille's body and suck him in. It's gravity that does the work, and Lille is still affected by that.


That's not how Kamui works.
 Kamui isn't a black hole.



Bad Wolf said:


> I don't really think that a complete intangible character would be sliced by something like that, there isn't anything to slice in the first place.



Kamui isn't cutting/slicing anything anyway. It's a space shenanigan.

 cutting/slicing is the closest explanation most people can say about it, but that isn't how it works.



Bad Wolf said:


> Well, it's true that he could use his power in a better way but in any case even having always many clone would help. That's all he need to survive



Kakashi can use Shadow clones about 10 of them or so.





Bad Wolf said:


> Gremmy lost trying to copy kenpachi's body, with kakashi he don't risk even with PIS/CIS.



Gremmy copying Kakashi's body would make him useless consideirng Chakra even if they are the same energy is used differently from reiatsu.

 It's basically another form of what happened to Ginyu when he occupied Goku's body. So I don't see how this is helping Gremmy at all


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 19, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Kamui isn't cutting/slicing anything anyway. It's a space shenanigan.
> 
> cutting/slicing is the closest explanation most people can say about it, but that isn't how it works.


Well, he "slice" with a hole in space, ignoring durability. Here it doesn't change much against Gerard or Lille



shade0180 said:


> Kakashi can use Shadow clones about 10 of them or so.


He usually don't this because he doesn't have that much chakra and that jutsu drain a lot of that. He isn't madara, he can't do like 10 clones with kamui and susanoo. Gremmy on the other end don't get tired for creating clone, rather, he increase his power



shade0180 said:


> Gremmy copying Kakashi's body would make him useless consideirng Chakra even if they are the same energy is used differently from reiatsu.
> 
> It's basically another form of what happened to Ginyu when he occupied Goku's body. So I don't see how this is helping Gremmy at all


Never said that copying Kakashi would be a good move for Gremmy. Drake said that he lost because of PIS/CIS but here he wouldn't die as with kenpachi. But I don't think he would try that, with Kenpachi he was surprised by his strength/durability, here he would be surprised only for his jutsu I think.


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## shade0180 (Jul 19, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Well, he "slice" with a hole in space,


Again that's not how that work, there was no slicing..

meh it's hard to explain..

So I'd probably wait for someone who can explain it properly

but for now to give an idea think of it as separating instead of cutting.. like in a magic box trick. You know where the assistant is shown to be separated without any resistance.


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## Drake (Jul 19, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> And why gravity should work? In the Soul King palace people normally can't even fly (with the usuall method) and he was still flying. And really, I'm not sure a intangible man will be affected by gravity. He can't be killed by that even if it works



Kamui increases the power of gravity by a lot, so it's not even comparable to the Soul King's Palace's gravity.



> Well I don't see why they shouldn't be able to destroy it or escape as they did. Caja negacion put the target in another dimension forever and people with enough reiatsu can break free, it's one of the many resistance of who use reiatsu. I don't even remember the kamui dimension to be very big



Caja Negacion was made specifically for weak Arrancars, so it makes sense that a powerful Arrancar would know how to escape from there. Kamui's dimension, on the other hand, is not made for Arrancars, so someone like Ulquiorra could not escape from there. Saying that someone with high reiatsu can escape from Kamui land is stretching it.



> Having only some degree of resistance against illusion can't help kakashi as it didn't helped other characters in Bleach



Sharingan can outright see through Kyoka Suigetsu.



shade0180 said:


> That's not how Kamui works.
> Kamui isn't a black hole.



Then how does it work? It is described as a *space-time* jutsu, so that sounds very similar to a black hole. It also looks like a small black hole.


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## Xhominid (Jul 19, 2016)

Kamui DOES NOT USE GRAVITATIONAL FORCE! If it did, then so many people and attacks would have been easily swept up without Kakashi needing to aim for it specifically(i.e. Deidara when he first uses it)

It warps the space around the target and sends it to it's dimension. It's more akin to a randomly appearing wormhole than anything with the distortion of gravity. This is more obvious in his DMS form with his Kamui everything. No gravitational force at all or Kaguya would have been sucked up rather than just losing a limb.

But yeah, I'm not sure if DMS Kakashi can solo Bleach now due to Volstandigt Lille and Gerard. Yhwach COULD be proven to be a real bitch with The Almighty but I'm not certain how huge is the speed between them to try and beat Yhwach before The Almighty pretty much fucks Kakashi over(by selecting the future where his Kamui fails to work or he destroys his eyes or something...)


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## Drake (Jul 19, 2016)

@Xhominid what is the force that drags the object into the wormhole, then? When Kakashi used Kamui on Deidara's arm, the core of the jutsu did not cover his whole arm, only a small area of his arm. Why was his whole arm sucked away, then?


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## Xhominid (Jul 19, 2016)

Drake said:


> @Xhominid what is the force that drags the object into the wormhole, then? When Kakashi used Kamui on Deidara's arm, the core of the jutsu did not cover his whole arm, only a small area of his arm. Why was his whole arm sucked away, then?



That's not gravitational force though as it would run contradictory to how Kamui has worked later on.
I would say despite being "focused" on a small part of Deidara's arm, the actual wormhole is a little more bigger than that.


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## Drake (Jul 19, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> That's not gravitational force though as it would run contradictory to how Kamui has worked later on.
> I would say despite being "focused" on a small part of Deidara's arm, the actual wormhole is a little more bigger than that.



Not sure what you mean by the actual wormhole being bigger, but another example is when Kakashi sucks in Hachibi's tentacle. What is the force that draws the tentacle in?


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## LazyWaka (Jul 19, 2016)

His whole arm wasn't sucked away. They went and picked it up later.

As for why it sucks things up. Never explained. It could just be creating a negative pressure zone like a lot of fictional wormholes do.

Regardless, Gravity has never been implied to be involved.


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## Drake (Jul 19, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> His whole arm wasn't sucked away. They went and picked it up later.
> 
> As for why it sucks things up. Never explained. It could just be creating a negative pressure zone like a lot of fictional wormholes do.
> 
> Regardless, Gravity has never been implied to be involved.



Even so, my main point still stands. As long as Kamui still sucks things up, whether or not it uses gravity to do so is irrelevant. I believe the Third Databook also says that the center of Kamui "draws in" its surroundings.


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## John Wayne (Jul 19, 2016)

It "draws it in" by the thing being displaced isn't even in the same dimension anymore.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 19, 2016)

Drake said:


> Caja Negacion was made specifically for weak Arrancars, so it makes sense that a powerful Arrancar would know how to escape from there. Kamui's dimension, on the other hand, is not made for Arrancars, so someone like Ulquiorra could not escape from there. Saying that someone with high reiatsu can escape from Kamui land is stretching it.


that really doesn't matter lol. It's a trap in a another dimension, from which they can escape, and as I said they can even bust one. Why kamui's dimension would be different?



Drake said:


> Sharingan can outright see through Kyoka Suigetsu.


how? seeing through illusion isn't enough as even normal shinigami can see through that



Drake said:


> Even so, my main point still stands. As long as Kamui still sucks things up, whether or not it uses gravity to do so is irrelevant. I believe the Third Databook also says that the center of Kamui "draws in" its surroundings.


Not with Lille. With Kyoraku it would work but that would damage even Kakashi


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## Drake (Jul 19, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> that really doesn't matter lol. It's a trap in a another dimension, from which they can escape, and as I said they can even bust one. Why kamui's dimension would be different?



You haven't proved that Bleach characters can bust any dimension they are forced into. All you have done is state that an Espada can break a dimension meant for weaker Arrancar, which has nothing to do with Kamui.



> how? seeing through illusion isn't enough as even normal shinigami can see through that



Normal shinigami can't see through illusions, as evidenced when they all attacked Momo because they thought she was Aizen.



> Not with Lille. With Kyoraku it would work but that would damage even Kakashi



You got any proof that Lille Barro is immune to gravity or negative pressure or whatever Kamui's sucking force is?


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 19, 2016)

Drake said:


> You haven't proved that Bleach characters can bust any dimension they are forced into. All you have done is state that an Espada can break a dimension meant for weaker Arrancar, which has nothing to do with Kamui.


Not every dimension but a dimension not significantly big yes. The fact that usually it is used against arrancarr don't mean that it doesn't count



Drake said:


> Normal shinigami can't see through illusions, as evidenced when they all attacked Momo because they thought she was Aizen.


They can see through invisibility or stuff like that. Aizen's power was stronger



Drake said:


> You got any proof that Lille Barro is immune to gravity or negative pressure or whatever Kamui's sucking force is?


You are claiming that kamui can hit someone intangible, I don't have to prove it. And even if he can hit him he will just come back/resurrect as against kyoraku


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## Drake (Jul 19, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Not every dimension but a dimension not significantly big yes. The fact that usually it is used against arrancarr don't mean that it doesn't count



First of all, Kamui land is not even a defined dimension. Never do we see where the dimension ends, so you can't just assume it isn't big. Second, size does not equal potency. Third, we have never seen anyone bust Kamui land before.

And yes, the fact that Caja Negacion was meant for lesser Arrancars does matter. That is exactly why an Espada was able to escape it, and that was blatantly stated in the manga by Grimmjow. You saying that this doesn't matter directly contradicts manga fact.



> They can see through invisibility or stuff like that. Aizen's power was stronger



I'm saying that Sharingan can see through illusions, which is what Aizen's power is. What the soul reapers could see through and couldn't see through is irrelevant. You can't compare the Sharingan to a regular shinigami's eyesight, especially when the Sharingan has already seen through illusions of Aizen's nature in the manga.



> You are claiming that kamui can hit someone intangible, I don't have to prove it.



Yes you do. Lille Barro is not immune to negative pressure or gravity because he is intangible, and Kamui isn't a ball or kunai or something that will just phase through Lille; it is a space-time jutsu. If you can provide me an example of Lille escaping from a suction force strong enough to pull in a huge tentacle, then I will agree with you. If not, then I am correct.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 19, 2016)

Drake said:


> First of all, Kamui land is not even a defined dimension. Never do we see where the dimension ends, so you can't just assume it isn't big. Second, size does not equal potency. Third, we have never seen anyone bust Kamui land before.


Kamui is a dimension. It doesn't matter if no one busted it or we've seen the ends, it's just a generic dimension like caja negacion or Yukio 



Drake said:


> And yes, the fact that Caja Negacion was meant for lesser Arrancars does matter. That is exactly why an Espada was able to escape it, and that was blatantly stated in the manga by Grimmjow. You saying that this doesn't matter directly contradicts manga fact.


So if the kamui dimension was only used to trap some fodder ninja it can be used only against that? If espada with enough reiatsu can get out of it is a feat for them



Drake said:


> I'm saying that Sharingan can see through illusions, which is what Aizen's power is. What the soul reapers could see through and couldn't see through is irrelevant. You can't compare the Sharingan to a regular shinigami's eyesight, especially when the Sharingan has already seen through illusions of Aizen's nature in the manga.


It matter because if shinigami don't have a regular eyesight of a human, they have some feat of seeing something invisible or percept things with the soul or reiatsu



Drake said:


> Yes you do.


No I don't, you claim that kamui can hit intangibles, prove it



Drake said:


> Lille Barro is not immune to negative pressure or gravity because he is intangible, and Kamui isn't a ball or kunai or something that will just phase through Lille; it is a space-time jutsu. If you can provide me an example of Lille escaping from a suction force strong enough to pull in a huge tentacle, then I will agree with you. If not, then I am correct.


Kamui doesn't even works like that... It can just put things in other dimension or "slice"


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## Drake (Jul 19, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Kamui is a dimension. It doesn't matter if no one busted it or we've seen the ends, it's just a generic dimension like caja negacion or Yukio



No it isn't. The fact is that it is far superior to Caja Negacion and Yukio's, for reasons I already explained before. You have failed to counter any of those reasons.



> So if the kamui dimension was only used to trap some fodder ninja it can be used only against that? If espada with enough reiatsu can get out of it is a feat for them



You're deflecting. My point is that Ulquiorra escaped from Caja Negacion because he is an Espada and the dimension was *specifically meant for lesser arrancars*. As confirmed by Grimmjow, it's not surprising that Ulquiorra could escape. Nothing indicates that Ulquiorra is some dimension-busting god, since all he has done is break a dimension that was never meant to hold him anyway.



> It matter because if shinigami don't have a regular eyesight of a human, they have some feat of seeing something invisible or percept things with the soul or reiatsu



The Sharingan is far superior than a shinigami's eyesight because it has already been shown to be able to see through the types of illusions Sosuke Aizen can create.



> Kamui doesn't even works like that... It can just put things in other dimension or "slice"



It does work like that, actually. Example: Kakashi sucking in Hachibi's tentacle.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 19, 2016)

Drake said:


> No it isn't. The fact is that it is far superior to Caja Negacion and Yukio's, for reasons I already explained before. You have failed to counter any of those reasons.


Wat. You haven't explained anything, you've only said "it isn't a dimension". Of course it is



Drake said:


> You're deflecting. My point is that Ulquiorra escaped from Caja Negacion because he is an Espada and the dimension was *specifically meant for lesser arrancars*. As confirmed by Grimmjow, it's not surprising that Ulquiorra could escape. Nothing indicates that Ulquiorra is some dimension-busting god, since all he has done is break a dimension that was never meant to hold him anyway.


You are trying to ignore feats... Caja negacion usually it's used against arrancarr, and so? It works even against stronger enemy, but they can escape with their powers. I'm not saying this is a dimension busting feats (but Ichigo's one is) but that it's not easy to BRF them. Ulquiorra escaped from a dimension, Kamui is a dimension, it's easy.



Drake said:


> The Sharingan is far superior than a shinigami's eyesight because it has already been shown to be able to see through the types of illusions Sosuke Aizen can create.


usually illusion are only affecting sight, sometimes even touch and hearing. That's weaker. They can't see people invisible like muu when shinigami can do it.



Drake said:


> It does work like that, actually. Example: Kakashi sucking in Hachibi's tentacle.


It's not a gravity power, it can pull people and stuff in but that doesn't mean it can affect intangible character. Really, that's fan fiction unless you can show me a scan


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 19, 2016)

You cant equalize a supposedly endless dimension like Kamui to something that is practically featless like caja negacion. It was said to be made to hold weaker Arrancar forever, but Ulq has too much reiatsu or whatever to be held for very long. 

Fucking Menos have an ability to make a field that separates people in another dimension and every captain in SS being there couldnt do shit to it, so they clearly dont have any ability to break dimensional BFR shit.


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## Drake (Jul 19, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Wat. You haven't explained anything, you've only said "it isn't a dimension". Of course it is



Re-read my posts, because clearly you missed a lot. In short, Yukio's dimension is not comparable to Kamui because it is a confined space within the World of the Living. Caja Negacion is not comparable to Kamui because it is a weak dimension meant to hold lesser, fodder-like Arrancar.

Kamui, on the other hand, has never been broken by anyone except another Kamui user (and even then it wasn't broken, they just escaped using Kamui). Kamui is also an endless space. 



> You are trying to ignore feats... Caja negacion usually it's used against arrancarr, and so? It works even against stronger enemy, but they can escape with their powers. I'm not saying this is a dimension busting feats (but Ichigo's one is) but that it's not easy to BRF them. Ulquiorra escaped from a dimension, Kamui is a dimension, it's easy.



Your last sentence shows that you have ignored everything I have been saying in my past few posts. Ask yourself why Ulquiorra was able to escape with his own powers. The answer is because Caja Negacion was never meant to hold him in the first place, and it was made especially for Fracciones. I have repeated this over and over again, yet you continue to ignore it. 

Yes, Ulquiorra and others around Ulquiorra's level can break Caja Negacion. Does that make them strong enough to break Kamui? No. Absolutely not. The two are not connected in any way.



> usually illusion are only affecting sight, sometimes even touch and hearing. That's weaker. They can't see people invisible like muu when shinigami can do it.



Don't know why you're bringing up Mu, and I don't want to get into whether shinigami can see him or not. Here is my point: Kyoka Suigetsu's illusions are similar to those that we have seen the Sharingan break in the Naruto manga, and therefore the Sharingan can break Kyoka Suigetsu's illusions. 



> It's not a gravity power, it can pull people and stuff in but that doesn't mean it can affect intangible character. Really, that's fan fiction unless you can show me a scan



... Seriously? I'm the one coming up with "fan fiction" arguments? Since when does intangibility allow you to escape from a wormhole that is sucking you in?


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 19, 2016)

Drake said:


> In short, Yukio's dimension is not comparable to Kamui because it is a confined space within the World of the Living.


It's a pocket dimension. That really doesn't mean it's smaller than the kamui dimension



Drake said:


> Caja Negacion is not comparable to Kamui because it is a weak dimension meant to hold lesser, fodder-like Arrancar.


And what a dimension is used matters because...? As I said, obito used to trap some fodders and for his intangibility, that means it's not a big dimension? No, it's a way to use it. But they are dimension



Drake said:


> Kamui, on the other hand, has never been broken by anyone except another Kamui user (and even then it wasn't broken, they just escaped using Kamui).


Er... if anyone in naruto couldn't it doesn't mean no one from another verse can't as well. They even have multiple feats



Drake said:


> Kamui is also an endless space.


Prove that is endless



Drake said:


> I have repeated this over and over again, yet you continue to ignore it.


Because you are only trying to ignore their feats or give them less value



Drake said:


> Does that make them strong enough to break Kamui? No. Absolutely not. The two are not connected in any way.


Why not? How can you say that the kamui dimension is stronger? In Naruto they don't have powers like that, but in bleach they have



Drake said:


> Don't know why you're bringing up Mu, and I don't want to get into whether shinigami can see him or not. Here is my point: Kyoka Suigetsu's illusions are similar to those that we have seen the Sharingan break in the Naruto manga, and therefore the Sharingan can break Kyoka Suigetsu's illusions.


Because you're trying to say that the sharingan is always better than their feats. Can they see muu with that? He's just invisible, for the sight not even touch and he was famous for being invisible. In Bleach they showed to see someone like him (only invisible) but they couldn't see Aizen or behind his illusions, even with their soul perception or reiatsu (and the sharingan see chakra, that won't be visible because Aizen can hide that)



Drake said:


> ... Seriously? I'm the one coming up with "fan fiction" arguments? Since when does intangibility allow you to escape from a wormhole that is sucking you in?


... Since when you aren't tangible and so there's anything that can be sucked? Do you think that kakashi while intangible would be sucked by a wormhole/gravity that isn't in the kamui dimension?



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Fucking Menos have an ability to make a field that separates people in another dimension


What are you talking about?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 19, 2016)

The ability literally called Negacion that they used to rescue Aizen from SS after he revealed himself 

They use it in chapter 178

EDIT: 

"they are in another world now" they separated them from the dimension they were in, its the namesake for caja negacion and no one could do shit to it. Bleach characters cant shatter dimensional BFR


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## Drake (Jul 19, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> It's a pocket dimension. That really doesn't mean it's smaller than the kamui dimension



We can see where it ends from the outside.



> And what a dimension is used matters because...? As I said, obito used to trap some fodders and for his intangibility, that means it's not a big dimension? No, it's a way to use it. But they are dimension



You can't make that comparison. Caja Negacion is *specifically *for fodder Arrancar. Kamui is used on everyone, and it was not made *specifically *to hold weak ninja. That is the difference.



> Er... if anyone in naruto couldn't it doesn't mean no one from another verse can't as well. They even have multiple feats



True, but they would need to show that they have the ability to bust out of any dimension, in that case. No one in Bleach possesses that skill, as evidenced by OneSimpleAnime's example.



> Prove that is endless



I can't post links for some reason, but if you look at Kamui land, you can see that it fades off into the black. You also cannot prove that it isn't endless.



> Because you are only trying to ignore their feats or give them less value



I'm not, though. I recognize that Ulquiorra had a feat where he busted a dimension that was stated to be weak.



> Why not? How can you say that the kamui dimension is stronger? In Naruto they don't have powers like that, but in bleach they have



I see, I think I understand what you're saying now. You are saying that Kamui's dimension may be even weaker than Caja Negacion, right? There is no way to definitely prove that it is stronger (and there is definitely no way to prove that it is weaker, so you can't really say that either), but I have provided examples of why it is most likely stronger. No one has escaped Kamui, and Caja Negacion and Yukio's dimensions were portrayed as weak. Kamui was always portrayed as a death sentence if you were sent there.



> Because you're trying to say that the sharingan is always better than their feats. Can they see muu with that? He's just invisible, for the sight not even touch and he was famous for being invisible. In Bleach they showed to see someone like him (only invisible) but they couldn't see Aizen or behind his illusions, even with their soul perception or reiatsu (and the sharingan see chakra, that won't be visible because Aizen can hide that)



Aizen's illusions can be seen with the Sharingan because the Sharingan has already seen through similar illusions. Mu is using an invisibility technique that has nothing to do with illusions, which is why he is irrelevant here. Seeing invisibility and seeing illusions are two entirely different things.



> ... Since when you aren't tangible and so there's anything that can be sucked? Do you think that kakashi while intangible would be sucked by a wormhole/gravity that isn't in the kamui dimension?



If you're intangible, you're still physically there. It's not as if you disappear from existence. And to answer your second question, maybe. Kakashi's intangibility is a bit different because he is sending his entire body to a different dimension.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 19, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> The ability literally called Negacion that they used to rescue Aizen from SS after he revealed himself


it recall the name but it works in a different way. Don't really see the point.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> "they are in another world now" they separated them from the dimension they were in, its the namesake for caja negacion and no one could do shit to it. Bleach characters cant shatter dimensional BFR


That's quite different. First it's Aizen and his crew in the different dimension, I'm not saying that every shinigami can just punch space and create a hole in reality, it's not the gurren lagann... Then they say that's impenetrable from the outside, so it may be just like a wall or barrier of some kind or maybe it's like the kamui intangibility (for example) and that's why they're "beyond reach". Or maybe it's just like you're saying, but the fact that they show 2 different example of dimension busting it would mean that this one is better.



Drake said:


> We can see where it ends from the outside.


We See a small box, that contain a bigger space, a dimension, not endless of course but neither a 10x10x10 room



Drake said:


> You can't make that comparison. Caja Negacion is *specifically *for fodder Arrancar. Kamui is used on everyone, and it was not made *specifically *to hold weak ninja. That is the difference.


It's *specifically *used on fodder, it works on stronger opponents but with their power they can escape

It's like having a gun for killing fodders, you can use it to shoot stronger enemy but they can ignore the shoot for their resistance. It isn't good for stronger enemy because they can escape but that's it. It's still a dimension of unknown size



Drake said:


> True, but they would need to show that they have the ability to bust out of any dimension, in that case. No one in Bleach possesses that skill, as evidenced by OneSimpleAnime's example.


How that prove everything? Even so there's one example against and two that they can. 



Drake said:


> I can't post links for some reason, but if you look at Kamui land, you can see that it fades off into the black.


that really doesn't prove anything, that could even mean that the dimension end where's black



Drake said:


> You also cannot prove that it isn't endless.


really? It's like saying "you cannot prove that unicorn doesn't exist" of course I can't if there isn't any proof of it in the first place.



Drake said:


> I'm not, though. I recognize that Ulquiorra had a feat where he busted a dimension that was stated to be weak.


You say that the dimension is weak.
I read that is Ulquiorra strong enough to break it.
Aizen gave the caja negacion to the espada so they could use it to punishing subordinates. The subordinates are weaker arrancarr. The intend was to punish weaker arrancarr, not another espada. With their reiatsu they can just break free in some hours.
I really can't see where they say "the dimension is weak", they say it isn't intended to trap an espada because he can go out



Drake said:


> I see, I think I understand what you're saying now. You are saying that Kamui's dimension may be even weaker than Caja Negacion, right?


... where did I said something like that? No. I'm just saying that BRF like that souldn't work if they have the ability to get out or break free from a dimension trapping them.



Drake said:


> There is no way to definitely prove that it is stronger (and there is definitely no way to prove that it is weaker, so you can't really say that either), but I have provided examples of why it is most likely stronger.


You didn't proved anything about that, you only said "it's endless" because "you can see that it fades off into the black" and "You also cannot prove that it isn't endless.". That isn't a prove, it's a joke. Yukio and caja negacion aren't endless or very big, they are just generic dimension, as kamui land. All three of them can be used to BRF the enemy, why should the kamui land be more difficult if it have the same feats?




Drake said:


> No one has escaped Kamui, and Caja Negacion and Yukio's dimensions were portrayed as weak. Kamui was always portrayed as a death sentence if you were sent there.


Let me say that this is a very bad argumentation.
1. It's never stated that caja negacion and yukio's dimensions are weak, instead the first is usually used to trap arrancarr forever and Yukio's was even said to be unbreakable and impossible to escape from it
2. No one escaped kamui land so what? If LT is putted there he would die? If Majin bu is putted there he can't escape as he did? that's stupid and a NLF.
3. The fact that in naruto no one can escape it doesn't mean that in other series cannot as well. In naruto no one bust a galaxy but that doesn't mean that the galaxies we see on TTGL are weaker because they've been destroyed.



Drake said:


> Aizen's illusions can be seen with the Sharingan because the Sharingan has already seen through similar illusions. Mu is using an invisibility technique that has nothing to do with illusions, which is why he is irrelevant here. Seeing invisibility and seeing illusions are two entirely different things.


It's not that simple. Even if we ignore all the invisible stuff and muu, Sharingan alone didn't helped kakashi against tsukuyomi, so it doesn't work with all the illusions.



Drake said:


> If you're intangible, you're still physically there. It's not as if you disappear from existence. And to answer your second question, maybe. Kakashi's intangibility is a bit different because he is sending his entire body to a different dimension.


Lol. True intangibility is like kakashi's but simply better. You can see kakashi but you can't touch or do anything to his body from the material plane because it is in the kamui land. A true intangibility don't bring the body somewhere. It isn't physical at all, it doesn't have mass or stuff like that


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## Drake (Jul 19, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> We See a small box, that contain a bigger space, a dimension, not endless of course but neither a 10x10x10 room



It's a defined space.



> It's *specifically *used on fodder, it works on stronger opponents but with their power they can escape
> 
> It's like having a gun for killing fodders, you can use it to shoot stronger enemy but they can ignore the shoot for their resistance. It isn't good for stronger enemy because they can escape but that's it. It's still a dimension of unknown size



Okay, I agree... But none of that counters my argument that it is meant for fodder and that it is a weak dimension.



> How that prove everything? Even so there's one example against and two that they can.



I said that no Bleach character is capable of busting any dimension because it has never been stated that anyone can, then I pointed to OneSimpleAnime's post as an example of Bleach characters being unable to destroy a dimension, therefore proving my point. Your two examples do not prove at all that Bleach characters can destroy all dimensions, just that certain characters can destroy those two specific dimensions.



> that really doesn't prove anything, that could even mean that the dimension end where's black



It looks like it fades off into black, which indicates it is never-ending.



> really? It's like saying "you cannot prove that unicorn doesn't exist" of course I can't if there isn't any proof of it in the first place.



The same could be said about you telling me to prove that it is endless.



> I read that is Ulquiorra strong enough to break it.



And you read correctly. What you apparently didn't read, however, was why Ulquiorra was able to break it: because it is meant for weak Arrancar.



> Aizen gave the caja negacion to the espada so they could use it to punishing subordinates. The subordinates are weaker arrancarr. The intend was to punish weaker arrancarr, not another espada. With their reiatsu they can just break free in some hours.
> I really can't see where they say "the dimension is weak", they say it isn't intended to trap an espada because he can go out



Why can an Espada escape? Because the dimension is weak. Why can we conclude that the dimension is weak? Because it is meant for weak Arrancar and cannot hold strong ones.



> ... where did I said something like that? No. I'm just saying that BRF like that souldn't work if they have the ability to get out or break free from a dimension trapping them.



That's the way I interpreted it because that is the only way I can see your argument making even a modicum of sense. Just because a character breaks one dimension doesn't mean that he can break every dimension.



> You didn't proved anything about that, you only said "it's endless" because "you can see that it fades off into the black" and "You also cannot prove that it isn't endless.". That isn't a prove, it's a joke. Yukio and caja negacion aren't endless or very big, they are just generic dimension, as kamui land. All three of them can be used to BRF the enemy, why should the kamui land be more difficult if it have the same feats?



You are classifying all dimensions as the same thing, which isn't true. Yukio's dimension and Caja Negacion are most likely weaker than Kamui because Caja Negacion was outright stated to be weak while Yukio's dimension was created by a Fullbringer far below Kakashi's power level who had his dimension destroyed simply by Ichigo going bankai. In Ichigo's subsequent bankai releases, we have seen that he doesn't release that much energy. Therefore, we can conclude that Yukio's dimension is weak from the inside and easy to bust.



> 2. No one escaped kamui land so what? If LT is putted there he would die? If Majin bu is putted there he can't escape as he did? that's stupid and a NLF.



Why are you discussing characters with power levels far eclipsing anyone we are talking about here? As I said before, no one in Bleach is capable of busting a powerful dimension. That is proven by OneSimpleAnime's example.



> 3. The fact that in naruto no one can escape it doesn't mean that in other series cannot as well.



I know, and I never said that no one can escape Kamui.



> It's not that simple. Even if we ignore all the invisible stuff and muu, Sharingan alone didn't helped kakashi against tsukuyomi, so it doesn't work with all the illusions.



It is that simple, and Tsukoyomi isn't even comparable to regular genjutsu or Kyoka Suigetsu. Only an Uchiha or someone who can resist mind torture can break it.



> Lol. True intangibility is like kakashi's but simply better. You can see kakashi but you can't touch or do anything to his body from the material plane because it is in the kamui land. A true intangibility don't bring the body somewhere. It isn't physical at all, it doesn't have mass or stuff like that



There is clearly still something there, as the person doesn't just disappear. The person is also still affected by forces such as gravity and the laws of physics, so the wormhole argument still works.


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## Xhominid (Jul 20, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> You cant equalize a supposedly endless dimension like Kamui to something that is practically featless like caja negacion. It was said to be made to hold weaker Arrancar forever, but Ulq has too much reiatsu or whatever to be held for very long.
> 
> Fucking Menos have an ability to make a field that separates people in another dimension and every captain in SS being there couldnt do shit to it, so they clearly dont have any ability to break dimensional BFR shit.



Except Ichigo still shattered Yukio's dimensional barriers and he only had Fullbring Bankai form with that one...

Of course, that version of Ichigo is probably above Bankai Shunsui so...


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## Divell (Jul 20, 2016)

No busting dimensions, mmm, sounds like I have seen that somewhere else

Ichigo did it by simply going Bankai, though considering is a Karakura Sized dimensions is not really that huge,

oh and Kenpachi walking through reality using pure strength.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Divell (Jul 20, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Except Ichigo still shattered Yukio's dimensional barriers and he only had Fullbring Bankai form with that one...
> 
> Of course, that version of Ichigo is probably above Bankai Shunsui so...


Yeah he is, but he shouldn't be that much above, considering in the current Ichigo is above those lvs, but is not that much above the captains.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 20, 2016)

Drake said:


> It's a defined space.


The box? Yeah. It doesn't matter because inside it's bigger, someone can create a universe in a box if they want. Not yukio of course that's why I'm saying it's just a general dimension but not so big. But Even Kamui land is never showed to be bigger



Drake said:


> Okay, I agree... But none of that counters my argument that it is meant for fodder and that it is a weak dimension.


Weak dimension is never stated. It is stated that strong opponent can get out of it, just that



Drake said:


> I said that no Bleach character is capable of busting any dimension because it has never been stated that anyone can, then I pointed to OneSimpleAnime's post as an example of Bleach characters being unable to destroy a dimension, therefore proving my point. Your two examples do not prove at all that Bleach characters can destroy all dimensions, just that certain characters can destroy those two specific dimensions.


Lol the example is really just guessed, Aizen and the crew was in the other "dimension" and they wanted to leave. Another fanfiction prove of the weak dimension, let's see how many times you say that



Drake said:


> And you read correctly. What you apparently didn't read, however, was why Ulquiorra was able to break it: because it is meant for weak Arrancar.





Drake said:


> Why can an Espada escape? Because the dimension is weak. Why can we conclude that the dimension is weak? Because it is meant for weak Arrancar and cannot hold strong ones.





Drake said:


> Caja Negacion was outright stated to be weak


Close to the weak dimension. Another downplaying, arrancarr can't get out of it, still don't change the fact that espada level character can get out of BRF dimension. It's a feat for them



Drake said:


> It looks like it fades off into black, which indicates it is never-ending.





Drake said:


> The same could be said about you telling me to prove that it is endless.


The fading into black don't tell anything, rather, it shows that the land ends and the dimension is limited. And another no, you are saying that it's endless without having a scan of someone who said that it is. And you are still claiming that. You are trying to tell me to find a scan of something that don't exist, this is a very bad arguments. You are claiming that unicorn exist and saying that I have to prove the opposite, but there's anything for pro and against that, because unicorn don't exist and neither a statement of the kamui land being endless!



Drake said:


> Just because a character breaks one dimension doesn't mean that he can break every dimension.


They can't destroy endless dimension or really big dimension (like a country size or something like that) but actually they can destroy this type of dimension, wonder why? They did, twice. And you still try to deny that, I have even forget about Kenpachi slashing aways from the vacuum BRF



Drake said:


> You are classifying all dimensions as the same thing, which isn't true.


Not all dimensions. These three it's just fine.



Drake said:


> while Yukio's dimension was created by a Fullbringer far below Kakashi's power level who had his dimension destroyed simply by Ichigo going bankai. In Ichigo's subsequent bankai releases, we have seen that he doesn't release that much energy. Therefore, we can conclude that Yukio's dimension is weak from the inside and easy to bust.


Soooo it's weak because Ichigo busted it? You prove that something is weak with in the same feat that it's  destroyed? So if I don't like Kaguya and it was stated that she could destroy her dimension with that ball I can say that the dimension is weak? If I don't like majin bo I can say that the room of spirit and time is weak? 



Drake said:


> Why are you discussing characters with power levels far eclipsing anyone we are talking about here? As I said before, no one in Bleach is capable of busting a powerful dimension. That is proven by OneSimpleAnime's example.


Because it seems that you like NLF and absolutist arguments like "no one can escape kamui land" and "only one uchiha can break free from tsukuyomi". Heck, character can resist that stuff with feats like in this case with the dimension



Drake said:


> I know, and I never said that no one can escape Kamui.


Well you said "Kamui was always portrayed as a death sentence if you were sent there." that looks like that or it looks like a useless statement 



Drake said:


> It is that simple, and Tsukoyomi isn't even comparable to regular genjutsu or Kyoka Suigetsu. Only an Uchiha or someone who can resist mind torture can break it.


No feats, only statement from your subjective statement. And if I say that: kyoka suigetsu isn't comparable to regular genjutsu or tsukuyomi, only touching the swork someone can see through illusions



Drake said:


> There is clearly still something there, as the person doesn't just disappear. The person is also still affected by forces such as gravity and the laws of physics, so the wormhole argument still works.


Affected by laws of physics not really, it doesn't have a mass or it isn't affected by energy and stuff. Really, you have to prove that kamui can affects intangible or it would be another fanfiction of yours


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## Drake (Jul 20, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Weak dimension is never stated. It is stated that strong opponent can get out of it, just that



If a strong opponent can get out of it, that means the dimension is not as strong as the person it is confining. I don't know how you can possibly dispute that. 



> Lol the example is really just guessed, Aizen and the crew was in the other "dimension" and they wanted to leave. Another fanfiction prove of the weak dimension, let's see how many times you say that



How is that example "guessed"? No one could break Aizen's Negacion. That is literal fact, and you cannot argue against it no matter how hard you try. 



> Close to the weak dimension. Another downplaying, arrancarr can't get out of it, still don't change the fact that espada level character can get out of BRF dimension. It's a feat for them



I know it is a feat for them. Let's say that Ichigo kills a run-of-the-mill hollow. Is that a feat for him? Yes. Is it a particularly impressive feat? No. It does not tell you that Ichigo is capable of killing all and every hollow in existence, which is essentially what you are saying.



> The fading into black don't tell anything, rather, it shows that the land ends and the dimension is limited.



We both have no way to prove whether it is endless or not, so let's just drop this point. 



> And another no, you are saying that it's endless without having a scan of someone who said that it is. And you are still claiming that. You are trying to tell me to find a scan of something that don't exist, this is a very bad arguments. You are claiming that unicorn exist and saying that I have to prove the opposite, but there's anything for pro and against that, because unicorn don't exist and neither a statement of the kamui land being endless!



You are claiming that it does have an end, and no scan stating that exists either. But again, let's just agree to disagree on this point.



> They can't destroy endless dimension or really big dimension (like a country size or something like that) but actually they can destroy this type of dimension, wonder why? They did, twice. And you still try to deny that, I have even forget about Kenpachi slashing aways from the vacuum BRF



What do you mean by "this type of dimension"? No dimension similar to Kamui has been shown in Bleach.



> Soooo it's weak because Ichigo busted it? You prove that something is weak with in the same feat that it's  destroyed? So if I don't like Kaguya and it was stated that she could destroy her dimension with that ball I can say that the dimension is weak? If I don't like majin bo I can say that the room of spirit and time is weak?



Sorry, I don't fully understand what you are saying here. Yukio's dimension is weak because Ichigo going bankai destroyed it. Therefore, the maximum level of power the dimension can contain is the release of energy from Ichigo going bankai. From Ichigo's subsequent bankai releases, he doesn't release much energy. Therefore, Yukio's dimension does not take much energy to bust and is weak.



> Because it seems that you like NLF and absolutist arguments like "no one can escape kamui land"



Except I never said that. 



> Well you said "Kamui was always portrayed as a death sentence if you were sent there."



In the Naruto series, yes. I used that as an example of why it is a strong dimension. Of course, a strong dimension in Naruto isn't the same as a strong dimension in the DBZ verse, but it is in the Bleach verse. 



> No feats, only statement from your subjective statement.



What do you mean? Are you saying there are no feats of the Sharingan breaking Aizen-like illusions?



> Affected by laws of physics not really, it doesn't have a mass or it isn't affected by energy and stuff. Really, you have to prove that kamui can affects intangible or it would be another fanfiction of yours



"Energy and stuff." What? Intangibles are affected by gravity, and they are affected by momentum, and they are affected by most of Newton's Laws. "Fanfiction" is you claiming that intangibles aren't affected by any sort of wormhole or suction force. 

I also have proof that intangibles are affected by Kamui. Look at Naruto chapter 628. Kakashi sucks Obito in with Kamui. If intangibles were capable of escaping the suction force by becoming intangible, then why didn't Obito do it?


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 20, 2016)

Drake said:


> If a strong opponent can get out of it, that means the dimension is not as strong as the person it is confining. I don't know how you can possibly dispute that.


So... There's a dimension, you can seal people in it. Someone stronger than the other can get out of it. It isn't a feat, it's the dimension weak.
... Ok. Let me remember this for the next time I have to speak about Dragon ball, they aren't strong, the planet are very weak. Of course.



Drake said:


> How is that example "guessed"? No one could break Aizen's Negacion. That is literal fact, and you cannot argue against it no matter how hard you try.


Who was in the dimension? Aizen and the crew. Not other shinigami. They couldn't get in the dimension and that's quite different



Drake said:


> I know it is a feat for them. Let's say that Ichigo kills a run-of-the-mill hollow. Is that a feat for him? Yes. Is it a particularly impressive feat? No. It does not tell you that Ichigo is capable of killing all and every hollow in existence, which is essentially what you are saying.


He would kill every hollow that aren't much different from that. He wouldn't kill a hollow with *better feats* than him. But here there isn't a single feat that put kamui land as a better dimension, just you world without basis.



Drake said:


> We both have no way to prove whether it is endless or not, so let's just drop this point.


Lol. Nope. There isn't no one that have said that is endless, it was never showed even to be so big. You are claiming that it is endless without having any prove. It isn't endless, deal with it



Drake said:


> What do you mean by "this type of dimension"? No dimension similar to Kamui has been shown in Bleach.


What substantial differences did they show that could affect the talk?



Drake said:


> Sorry, I don't fully understand what you are saying here. Yukio's dimension is weak because Ichigo going bankai destroyed it. Therefore, the maximum level of power the dimension can contain is the release of energy from Ichigo going bankai. From Ichigo's subsequent bankai releases, he doesn't release much energy. Therefore, Yukio's dimension does not take much energy to bust and is weak.


It doesn't work like that. You don't have to replicate every single time a feat to make it good. You can't just say that the dimension is weak just because Ichigo destroyed it. It's like saying that namek is weak because freezer destroyed that or the moon is weak because muten destroyed it. Or dragon ball character in general are weak because every time they throw a ki blast or a punch they don't destroy a planet (best example)



Drake said:


> In the Naruto series, yes. I used that as an example of why it is a strong dimension. Of course, a strong dimension in Naruto isn't the same as a strong dimension in the DBZ verse, but it is in the Bleach verse.


Not really. Busting a dimension isn't used a valid destruction feat because they are unquantifiable, the fact that Naruto have a stronger DC than Ulquiorra isn't correlated in the series by the fact that naruto has better opportunity at escaping from a dimension



Drake said:


> What do you mean? Are you saying there are no feats of the Sharingan breaking Aizen-like illusions?


"and Tsukoyomi isn't even comparable to regular genjutsu or Kyoka Suigetsu" they are different, you can't compare them like that and you are only giving you subjective opinion that really doesn't matter



Drake said:


> "Energy and stuff." What? Intangibles are affected by gravity, and they are affected by momentum, and they are affected by most of Newton's Laws. "Fanfiction" is you claiming that intangibles aren't affected by any sort of wormhole or suction force.


Hell nope, you are writing a long fanfiction from the start, Gravity affecting intangible? Why would that happen? Was that even hinted for lille? And why would you argue for something like that when even if lille wasn't intangible he can just come back to life if killed



Drake said:


> I also have proof that intangibles are affected by Kamui. Look at Naruto chapter 628. Kakashi sucks Obito in with Kamui. If intangibles were capable of escaping the suction force by becoming intangible, then why didn't Obito do it?


For many different reason.
Obito came to fight kakashi he could have just wanted to go to kamui land.
Obito isn't always intangible.
Obito don't have a true intangibility, he just send his body to the kamui land, so having a hole that send you to the kamui land when you have that kind of trick in act isn't like the other case. He can't pass through kamui because he's already in the kamui, the hole would only target the "fake" body that everyone see


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## Drake (Jul 20, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> So... There's a dimension, you can seal people in it. Someone stronger than the other can get out of it. It isn't a feat, it's the dimension weak.
> ... Ok. Let me remember this for the next time I have to speak about Dragon ball, they aren't strong, the planet are very weak. Of course.



You are making another false comparison. Caja Negacion was said to be weak, which is why it is not surprising that an Espada could destroy it. A planet, on the other hand, is not an easy structure to destroy, so that is an impressive feat. 



> Who was in the dimension? Aizen and the crew. Not other shinigami. They couldn't get in the dimension and that's quite different



True, good point. Even Yukio's weak dimension was shown to be strong from the outside. 



> He would kill every hollow that aren't much different from that. He wouldn't kill a hollow with *better feats* than him. But here there isn't a single feat that put kamui land as a better dimension, just you world without basis.



I have already explained why the dimensions busted in Bleach are weak, so you can't make the assumption that they are stronger or as strong as Kamui. You have no evidence to back that up.



> Lol. Nope. There isn't no one that have said that is endless, it was never showed even to be so big. You are claiming that it is endless without having any prove. It isn't endless, deal with it



Fine, if you insist on being stubborn: where does it say that it has an end? Blackness does not mean it ends; in fact, it means the opposite. 



> What substantial differences did they show that could affect the talk?



Are you seriously asking me this? I already explained why Yukio's dimension and Caja Negacion were portrayed as weak, and I already explained why Kamui was portrayed as strong.



> It doesn't work like that. You don't have to replicate every single time a feat to make it good. You can't just say that the dimension is weak just because Ichigo destroyed it. It's like saying that namek is weak because freezer destroyed that or the moon is weak because muten destroyed it. Or dragon ball character in general are weak because every time they throw a ki blast or a punch they don't destroy a planet (best example)



So you are saying that Ichigo never released the same amount of power he did while breaking Yukio's dimension? Do I have to explain why that argument is ridiculous?



> "and Tsukoyomi isn't even comparable to regular genjutsu or Kyoka Suigetsu" they are different, you can't compare them like that and you are only giving you subjective opinion that really doesn't matter



You can compare genjutsu to Kyoka Suigetsu, actually, due to the similar qualities that both exhibit. Your argument is essentially "Bleach illusions are stronger than Naruto illusions" without providing any evidence to prove that.



> Hell nope, you are writing a long fanfiction from the start, Gravity affecting intangible? Why would that happen? Was that even hinted for lille? And why would you argue for something like that when even if lille wasn't intangible he can just come back to life if killed



I don't fully remember Lille vs Shunsui, but the only times he defied gravity were when he flew in his Vollstandig. The other laws of physics still applied to him as well, even when he was intangible. You whining about "fanfiction" over and over again does nothing to support your argument and just makes you sound childish.



> For many different reason.
> Obito came to fight kakashi he could have just wanted to go to kamui land.



No, because then he would have been the one to initiate the transport.



> Obito isn't always intangible.



I never said he was, and that has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.



> Obito don't have a true intangibility, he just send his body to the kamui land, so having a hole that send you to the kamui land when you have that kind of trick in act isn't like the other case. He can't pass through kamui because he's already in the kamui, the hole would only target the "fake" body that everyone see



Your argument is that a suction force cannot suck an intangible. Therefore, if Obito became intangible, he should have been able to bypass Kakashi's suction entirely, regardless of where he sent his body.


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## AgentAAA (Jul 20, 2016)

Drake said:


> If a strong opponent can get out of it, that means the dimension is not as strong as the person it is confining. I don't know how you can possibly dispute that.


Not really, it means the dimension couldn't overcome the person's dimensional hax resistance/dimension breaking ability.
Dimension's don't fall under the traditional scale whatsoever.




> How is that example "guessed"? No one could break Aizen's Negacion. That is literal fact, and you cannot argue against it no matter how hard you try.


Was the Menos Negacion



> I know it is a feat for them. Let's say that Ichigo kills a run-of-the-mill hollow. Is that a feat for him? Yes. Is it a particularly impressive feat? No. It does not tell you that Ichigo is capable of killing all and every hollow in existence, which is essentially what you are saying.


Not really equivalent.




> We both have no way to prove whether it is endless or not, so let's just drop this point.
> You are claiming that it does have an end, and no scan stating that exists either. But again, let's just agree to disagree on this point.



OBD low-ends things like this to what's proven rather than giving ambiguity any weight.
Same reason Kaguya's only planet-level for her dimension bust.
You can only argue it's as powerful/large as what's shown



> What do you mean by "this type of dimension"? No dimension similar to Kamui has been shown in Bleach.


Equalization handles this. We treat them as similar.



> Sorry, I don't fully understand what you are saying here. Yukio's dimension is weak because Ichigo going bankai destroyed it. Therefore, the maximum level of power the dimension can contain is the release of energy from Ichigo going bankai. From Ichigo's subsequent bankai releases, he doesn't release much energy. Therefore, Yukio's dimension does not take much energy to bust and is weak.


Dimensions are hax and thus it doesn't come down to "if it's weak". It comes down to hax negation, which is what Ichigo can achieve here.



> In the Naruto series, yes. I used that as an example of why it is a strong dimension. Of course, a strong dimension in Naruto isn't the same as a strong dimension in the DBZ verse, but it is in the Bleach verse.


No one's shown dimensional barrier breaking feats, and no dimension has shown resistance, in Naruto and those that probably could never tested to see.
Kamui's featless as far as resisting that sort of thing.



> I also have proof that intangibles are affected by Kamui. Look at Naruto chapter 628. Kakashi sucks Obito in with Kamui. If intangibles were capable of escaping the suction force by becoming intangible, then why didn't Obito do it?


I don't think there's a consensus on how suction works on intangibles, but that right there could just as easily be CIS, which wouldn't be unprecedented given the actions of Kaguya and others along the same lines.
Should probably work though.

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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 20, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> it recall the name but it works in a different way. Don't really see the point.
> 
> 
> That's quite different. First it's Aizen and his crew in the different dimension, I'm not saying that every shinigami can just punch space and create a hole in reality, it's not the gurren lagann... Then they say that's impenetrable from the outside, so it may be just like a wall or barrier of some kind or maybe it's like the kamui intangibility (for example) and that's why they're "beyond reach". Or maybe it's just like you're saying, but the fact that they show 2 different example of dimension busting it would mean that this one is better.


It doesnt work differently. It separates the target into another dimension to rescue them. They can only break dimensional barriers from inside them but not from the outside when its right in front of them? that seems fucking stupid.

Every captain was present and when its been repeated a million times to us "bigger reiatsu lets you overpower smaller reiatsu and any abilities weaker than yourself" in Bleach. The Gillians are fucking shit to any captain yet they couldnt break an ability from them. They dont have an answer to dimensional hax.

If they could break it from the inside then why did Yamamoto tell them to get away? They couldve sat there and then busted out and fucked Aizen over.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 20, 2016)

Drake said:


> You are making another false comparison. Caja Negacion was said to be weak, which is why it is not surprising that an Espada could destroy it. A planet, on the other hand, is not an easy structure to destroy, so that is an impressive feat.


No, it was stated to be an item used to punish arrancarr, not another espada. They really never said that the dimension is weak. And still even if they did what that would mean? It would be weak because *they* can escape. For Bach it could be easy to go from the Soul king palace to the SS. For Goku can be easy to teleport to the underworld. That doesn't mean that everyone can do it. But it wasn't stated that it was weak so you're just downplaying



Drake said:


> Even Yukio's weak dimension


downplaying without feats or even contradicting the manga. Hell, yukio was even very surprised when Ichigo busted the dimension



Drake said:


> Fine, if you insist on being stubborn: where does it say that it has an end? Blackness does not mean it ends; in fact, it means the opposite.


Again? Again trying to say that I have to prove that is endless? Lol. I can search only for that or I have to prove even that Kakashi isn't a universe buster? Really, you are claiming it's endless, you have to bring prove for that.



Drake said:


> I already explained why Yukio's dimension and Caja Negacion were portrayed as weak, and I already explained why Kamui was portrayed as strong.


You only said things. Without any scan. Without any prove. You're saying from the beginning "Yukio's dimension and caja negacion are weak, kamui land is strong" that's all.



Drake said:


> You can compare genjutsu to Kyoka Suigetsu, actually, due to the similar qualities that both exhibit. Your argument is essentially "Bleach illusions are stronger than Naruto illusions" without providing any evidence to prove that.


Actually I bring some example of things that a shinigami can see through and things that a sharingan user can't. They have feats on either side but still you say that tsukuyomi is stronger. Let's make some comparison:
Tsukuyomi need eyes contact as Kyoka suigetsu. Here they are the same
Tsukuyomi works for a limited time when the second only need an eye contact and then can be used any times, even after a century. Here's KS is better.
Tsukuyomi can damage the opponent while KS can't directly do. Tsukuyomi here's better.
Tsukuyomi create illusion that affect sight, earing, touch and perception of time for what we saw, taste and smell I don't remember being affected and neither the chakra sensing, KS affect all the 5 senses, the reiatsu/soul sensing and time perception (only used against bach). So, here by feats KS is slighty better I'd say
Tsukuyomi was said that in-verse could be broken only by a sharingan with the blood of an uchiha, KS was said that in-verse can't be broken and you can only stop the illusion touching the sword. Here's a bit difficult to say what's better, they  aren't very comparable because they need specific things to be rendered useless, we can say that the condition of the tsukuyomi are more difficult to have. We can go with other comparison but they each have somethings that may be better, but that's tsukuyomi that even beated kakashi. Regular illusion aren't that great



Drake said:


> I don't fully remember Lille vs Shunsui, but the only times he defied gravity were when he flew in his Vollstandig. The other laws of physics still applied to him as well, even when he was intangible.


Like what? hitting things without having a mass or stuff like that aren't really ok with laws of physics



Drake said:


> You whining about "fanfiction" over and over again does nothing to support your argument and just makes you sound childish.


Because, let me say, that the gravitational pull of the kamui (wat.) working on someone intangible is very difficult to belive. It's like if someone claim that Yamamoto can crisp Obito/kakashi while intangible because of the heat or stuff like that



Drake said:


> No, because then he would have been the one to initiate the transport.


the teleport of the kamui is faster than that



Drake said:


> I never said he was, and that has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.


if he wasn't intangible here then the all "I also have proof that intangibles are affected by Kamui. Look at Naruto chapter 628." doesn't fly



Drake said:


> Your argument is that a suction force cannot suck an intangible. Therefore, if Obito became intangible, he should have been able to bypass Kakashi's suction entirely, regardless of where he sent his body.


Here you can't even say that he was intangible or that he wouldn't want to go in the kamui land with kakashi. Also, as I said, it's quite different, Kamui suck in another dimension, the same dimension were Obito go while intangible, so it would be like opening a hole to a place were you already are.
Kamui and obito intangibility are connected


Obito when use intangibility use it only on specific parts of his body






OneSimpleAnime said:


> It doesnt work differently. It separates the target into another dimension to rescue them. They can only break dimensional barriers from inside them but not from the outside when its right in front of them? that seems fucking stupid.
> 
> Every captain was present and when its been repeated a million times to us "bigger reiatsu lets you overpower smaller reiatsu and any abilities weaker than yourself" in Bleach. The Gillians are fucking shit to any captain yet they couldnt break an ability from them. They dont have an answer to dimensional hax.
> 
> If they could break it from the inside then why did Yamamoto tell them to get away? They couldve sat there and then busted out and fucked Aizen over.


Because we don't know how properly works normal negacion. Assume that it brings Aizen and the crew in a different dimension in the same way of how the intangibility of obito works. The fact that someone can bust the kamui land/negacion land really don't matters if you aren't in the kamui land. If Ichigo can burst kamui land that doesn't mean he can touch obito while intangible.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 20, 2016)

okay? That doesnt answer why Yama told them to get away. If they could bust out since it clearly states they are in another world/dimension then they could have stood around and negated Negacion from the inside.


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## AgentAAA (Jul 20, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> okay? That doesnt answer why Yama told them to get away. If they could bust out since it clearly states they are in another world/dimension then they could have stood around and negated Negacion from the inside.


that simply says something about how strong Negacion is. that said, IIRC, it had more to do with the fact they'd harm themselves in the attempt.
Menos are portrayed (Incorrectly admittedly) as not that far below captains, and they were working together to make the fields so it doesn't lack precedent, and dimensional hax is a nebulous issue regardless.


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## Sablés (Jul 20, 2016)

When has Kamui been stated to be an endless space or even anything bigger than what been transported into it? 

Yukio creates portable dimensions, there's no getting around that. If we were to quantify it, its at least the size of Karakura Town given Yukio replicated it in Ginjo's fight. To go into outlier territory, there is a sun inside that dimension.

Caja Negacion is also dimensional bfr yet can't hold an Espada for longer than an hour? Dimensional bfr and spacial shenaningans have been resisted before in Bleach. All you've proven is that the menos negacion and alike are of a higher quality. Same as how Hit stacking timestops against Goku means someone who can resist a single-layered timestop of a comparable level wouldn't necessarily resist Hit's.

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## Drake (Jul 20, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> No, it was stated to be an item used to punish arrancarr, not another espada. They really never said that the dimension is weak. And still even if they did what that would mean? It would be weak because *they* can escape. For Bach it could be easy to go from the Soul king palace to the SS. For Goku can be easy to teleport to the underworld. That doesn't mean that everyone can do it. But it wasn't stated that it was weak so you're just downplaying



It is weak because it is meant for lesser arrancar, and cannot hold anything above lesser arrancar. Unless you think that lesser arrancar are strong, then the dimension is weak because it cannot hold anything stronger than a lesser arrancar. Anything wrong with that analysis? It seems pretty simple to me.



> Again? Again trying to say that I have to prove that is endless? Lol. I can search only for that or I have to prove even that Kakashi isn't a universe buster? Really, you are claiming it's endless, you have to bring prove for that.



What? I literally said we should drop this point because I cannot prove that it is endless and you cannot prove that it ends. You are the one who insisted upon bringing it up again.



> Actually I bring some example of things that a shinigami can see through and things that a sharingan user can't. They have feats on either side but still you say that tsukuyomi is stronger. Let's make some comparison:
> Tsukuyomi need eyes contact as Kyoka suigetsu. Here they are the same
> Tsukuyomi works for a limited time when the second only need an eye contact and then can be used any times, even after a century. Here's KS is better.
> Tsukuyomi can damage the opponent while KS can't directly do. Tsukuyomi here's better.
> ...



Not entirely sure what your point is here. KS makes illusions that affect all five senses, as does regular genjutsu. How are they different?



> Like what? hitting things without having a mass or stuff like that aren't really ok with laws of physics



He follows all three of Newton's Laws.



> Because, let me say, that the gravitational pull of the kamui (wat.) working on someone intangible is very difficult to belive. It's like if someone claim that Yamamoto can crisp Obito/kakashi while intangible because of the heat or stuff like that



Fine if you believe that, but there is no need to attempt to devalue my sound, proven argument by calling it "fanfiction." If you disagree, prove it wrong. 



> the teleport of the kamui is faster than that



Not sure what you mean by that. If Obito wanted to one-on-one Kakashi, he would have done it from the start. Instead, Obito rushes at Kakashi in the real world and Kakashi is the one who decides to take it to Kamui land.



> if he wasn't intangible here then the all "I also have proof that intangibles are affected by Kamui. Look at Naruto chapter 628." doesn't fly



What? He could have easily turned intangible at that moment if he wanted.



> Here you can't even say that he was intangible or that he wouldn't want to go in the kamui land with kakashi. Also, as I said, it's quite different, Kamui suck in another dimension, the same dimension were Obito go while intangible, so it would be like opening a hole to a place were you already are.
> Kamui and obito intangibility are connected
> 
> 
> Obito when use intangibility use it only on specific parts of his body



I understand what you are saying, but if intangibility allowed Obito to escape from suction forces, then he could have done it. Let's assume that intangibility does function that way for a moment. First, Obito would make the part of his body closest to Kamui's core intangible, and that body part would pass through the suction and bypass it. He would then bring that part of his body back from Kamui land by making it tangible again. The rest of his body would follow in a similar fashion, allowing him to bypass Kakashi's Kamui suction and allowing Obito to remain in the real world. Obito wouldn't send his whole body to Kamui land all at once, he would only send the parts that were closest to the suction force and then return them as they pass through the suction force.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 20, 2016)

If you want proof about Boxland's size IIRC when Obito Kamui'd into Kaguya's dimensions he noted that they were huge and was surprised that she was able to connect them all.


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## Divell (Jul 20, 2016)

Any of the Hollows that weren't arrancars aren't strong as Captains but strong as lieutenants. I wouldn't necessarily call those dimensions weak, because they hold via reiatsu.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 21, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> okay? That doesnt answer why Yama told them to get away. If they could bust out since it clearly states they are in another world/dimension then they could have stood around and negated Negacion from the inside.


Because they were already outside. And even if Matsumoto, Hisagi, Yourichi and Soifon would have stayed inside they would have been killed by the 3. Oh and we don't know if the dimension was already the hueco mundo, which is quite different and bigger



Drake said:


> It is weak because it is meant for lesser arrancar, and cannot hold anything above lesser arrancar. Unless you think that lesser arrancar are strong, then the dimension is weak because it cannot hold anything stronger than a lesser arrancar. Anything wrong with that analysis? It seems pretty simple to me.


it's not meant for lesser arrancarr, it's used on lesser arrancarr because they can't escape. It works on espada level, we saw that, but they can't escape. And what do you mean with "weak"? You don't get out of it if you don't have some kind of trick or resistance



Drake said:


> What? I literally said we should drop this point because I cannot prove that it is endless and you cannot prove that it ends. You are the one who insisted upon bringing it up again.


I won't drop this because stating that it is endless is wrong, that's all. I don't have to prove that it isn't endless if in the first place it was never stated to be. Do I need to prove even that kakashi can't use amaterasu? It was never stated the he could use it but maybe you want even start to claim that they never even said the opposite. It's a very stupid arguments from you and I won't stop. Kamui land isn't endless until you can prove it.



Drake said:


> Not entirely sure what your point is here. KS makes illusions that affect all five senses, as does regular genjutsu. How are they different?


Regular genjutsu don't usually control all the five sense, usually 3 (sight, hearing, touch) and even with all 5 sense it's still below KS suigetsu that affect 5 sense, reiatsu+soul localization and perception of time. As I said even tsukuyomi don't have all this control. this like the genjutsu of the old mizukage was only a mirage and they couldn't  see though, kakashi couldn't break out of tsukuyomi, an illusion with a specific in-verse way to deal with it, same as kyoka suigetsu, he wouldn't see though it



Drake said:


> He follows all three of Newton's Laws.


Well, he can't follow the second one, he don't have a mass but can touch/destroy things. Even the third, because there isn't a force that can affect him, it would only pass though it



Drake said:


> Fine if you believe that, but there is no need to attempt to devalue my sound, proven argument by calling it "fanfiction." If you disagree, prove it wrong.


Again, *you* are saying that gravity can affect someone intangible and you have to post some prove, if you only claim something basing on nothing you can't pretend me to search prove for it.



Drake said:


> Not sure what you mean by that. If Obito wanted to one-on-one Kakashi, he would have done it from the start. Instead, Obito rushes at Kakashi in the real world and Kakashi is the one who decides to take it to Kamui land.





Drake said:


> What? He could have easily turned intangible at that moment if he wanted.


So? We don't know if he wanted to go with kakashi or not, and even if he wanted we don't know if he was intangible or not, maybe he wanted to go so he didn't became intangible. So it's not a feat



Drake said:


> I understand what you are saying, but if intangibility allowed Obito to escape from suction forces, then he could have done it. Let's assume that intangibility does function that way for a moment. First, Obito would make the part of his body closest to Kamui's core intangible, and that body part would pass through the suction and bypass it. He would then bring that part of his body back from Kamui land by making it tangible again. The rest of his body would follow in a similar fashion, allowing him to bypass Kakashi's Kamui suction and allowing Obito to remain in the real world. Obito wouldn't send his whole body to Kamui land all at once, he would only send the parts that were closest to the suction force and then return them as they pass through the suction force.


We don't really know how it works. If there's a point where there's the hole of the kamui and obito's body is there how can he return tangible if that would only send again the body in the kamui land? it's like a logic error with a loop, kishi probably never thinked about it or resolved it with some not standard way


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## Drake (Jul 21, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> it's not meant for lesser arrancarr, it's used on lesser arrancarr because they can't escape. It works on espada level, we saw that, but they can't escape. And what do you mean with "weak"? You don't get out of it if you don't have some kind of trick or resistance



The very reason why Espada-level arrancar can escape is because the dimensions is not meant to hold them. Before I say anything else, can we agree on that?



> I won't drop this because stating that it is endless is wrong, that's all. I don't have to prove that it isn't endless if in the first place it was never stated to be.



It was never stated to end either. If you are claiming that it ends when it clearly looks like it doesn't, then you must prove it.



> Do I need to prove even that kakashi can't use amaterasu? It was never stated the he could use it but maybe you want even start to claim that they never even said the opposite.



Another false comparison. Kakashi cannot use Amaterasu because he possesses a completely different Mangekyo, and that technique is not listed under his profile in the databook. He also would have used it if he possessed it.

You can't just assume that the default option is that the Kamui dimension has an end. 



> Regular genjutsu don't usually control all the five sense, usually 3 (sight, hearing, touch)



We have never seen it control taste or smell because there has never been a situation where genjutsu needed to control them. I don't think we've ever seen KS control taste or smell either. However, genjutsu has been stated to control the cerebral nervous system, which means it can control all five senses if needed.



> and even with all 5 sense it's still below KS suigetsu that affect 5 sense, reiatsu+soul localization and perception of time.



It can't affect reiatsu because there is no reiatsu in Naruto. I could just as well argue that Genjutsu disrupts chakra and KS doesn't.



> Well, he can't follow the second one, he don't have a mass but can touch/destroy things. Even the third, because there isn't a force that can affect him, it would only pass though it



He follows the second one because he accelerates. If he had no mass, then he would never move. The mass he has just becomes intangible and allows things to pass through it. As for the third, he does follow it because when he fires his weapon, he experiences recoil, evidenced by how the weapon is constructed to have a grip that would absorb most of the recoil.



> So? We don't know if he wanted to go with kakashi or not



Yes we do, and I literally explained why in my last post. Now you are ignoring my evidence for the sake of being difficult. I've noticed your main method of defense is writing off my evidence as wrong, even though everything I say is supported by the manga.

This is a constant thing and I feel like I am getting nowhere. I prove something using evidence, and then in your next post you say "you didn't prove anything" as if you just ignored everything I posted. If you're going to continue to be immature like that, I'm going to consider that your concession and stop replying to your posts.



> and even if he wanted we don't know if he was intangible or not



If he was intangible at that moment, it only proves my point. If he wasn't, it also proves my point for reasons I listed in my last two posts.



> We don't really know how it works. If there's a point where there's the hole of the kamui and obito's body is there how can he return tangible if that would only send again the body in the kamui land? it's like a logic error with a loop, kishi probably never thinked about it or resolved it with some not standard way



We do know how it works. Obito can make any part of his body intangible, and that intangible part gets sent to Kamui land. When he makes it tangible again, that body part returns from Kamui land.

By your logic, the very fact that Obito is intangible should allow him to bypass the suction force. It is irrelevant where he sends his body while it is intangible.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 21, 2016)

Drake said:


> The very reason why Espada-level arrancar can escape is because the dimensions is not meant to hold them. Before I say anything else, can we agree on that?


I'd say that the caja negacion is usually used to seal arrancarr forever, not espada (and that's because they can escape from that so no endless seal)



Drake said:


> It was never stated to end either. If you are claiming that it ends when it clearly looks like it doesn't, then you must prove it.


It's a separate dimension. A dimension is a special space in/between/behind the normal universe and can be endless, universe size/planet/city/room... size. No one never stated that the kamui land is endless. That's it. You can't except them to say everything. They never said even that the kamui land isn't the holy palace of unicorns. You want agree to disagree even about that? I can say everything I want with that kind of logic



Drake said:


> Another false comparison. Kakashi cannot use Amaterasu because he possesses a completely different Mangekyo, and that technique is not listed under his profile in the databook.


And so? In the databook there's written that he doesn't have it? Or it's written in the databook that the kamui land is endless or not? If no you fail to your own logic




Drake said:


> However, genjutsu has been stated to control the cerebral nervous system, which means it can control all five senses if needed.


where was it stated? Let's start to see everything. Because here

They state that "works on 5 senses" but they don't always works on all 5 of them, for example the old mizukage was a strong genjutsu user but his illusion was affecting only the sight



Drake said:


> It can't affect reiatsu because there is no reiatsu in Naruto. I could just as well argue that Genjutsu disrupts chakra and KS doesn't.


That's quite different. Aizen can use KS to alter reiatsu (and so chakra with the rules of the OBD) + soul sensing so a shinigami can't see the difference with that. Genjutsu don't alter that perception, rather people in naruto who can sense chakra very well or have a sharingan/byakugan normally can see trough illusion searching for the chakra of the user or looking if their chakra is having any imbalance.



That's because genjutsu needs to work to operate on the chakra of the enemy, without the equivalence rules naruto's character can't even use their genjutsu. So it's not a good point that they need the chakra to work




Drake said:


> He follows the second one because he accelerates. If he had no mass, then he would never move. The mass he has just becomes intangible and allows things to pass through it. As for the third, he does follow it because when he fires his weapon, he experiences recoil, evidenced by how the weapon is constructed to have a grip that would absorb most of the recoil.



Not really. If he had a mass and a density then he wouldn't be intangible. The "I have a mass but I just put that in a different dimension" is obito/kakashi intangibility. Lille don't do the same thing. For the third you are even arguing about his firearms that:
- is used when he is tangible for almost all the time
- could even be similar to our gun and that's all
really dude, you have to prove that kamui can work on someone intangible in the first place, you can't go on with this vague as fuck statement of physic when arguing about someone who can destroy space while intangible and someone who can create a hole in reality with his magic energy. Really.



Drake said:


> Yes we do, and I literally explained why in my last post. Now you are ignoring my evidence for the sake of being difficult. I've noticed your main method of defense is writing off my evidence as wrong, even though everything I say is supported by the manga.


How can that be my main method if you basically only reported that fact with the scan? You have just pictured your opinion, obito when's sucked don't have any sign of surprise, he was face to face and unless you think he wanted to kiss kakashi that's right what he was aspecting. If only kakashi wanted to go there obito could have just used his ability to escape from the kamui land. His ability is even slower that the kamui if I remember well



Drake said:


> This is a constant thing and I feel like I am getting nowhere. I prove something using evidence, and then in your next post you say "you didn't prove anything" as if you just ignored everything I posted. If you're going to continue to be immature like that, I'm going to consider that your concession and stop replying to your posts.


really? Where are your prove? The fact that I don't have prove for the kamui land to be limited? The fact that a magical soul that is intangible follow the law of physics? That tsukuyomi is better than KS because you said so? Kakashi can BRF intangibles without ever showing but people from clorox can't get out of dimension BRF even when they showed many times? Really? I hope you are trolling.



Drake said:


> If he was intangible at that moment, it only proves my point. *If he wasn't, it also proves my point for reasons I listed in my last two posts*.


Be more specific then. Because there's really anything that help your arguments if he wasn't intangible.



Drake said:


> We do know how it works.


We don't know how kamui interact with obito intangibility. That what I was saying.



Drake said:


> Obito can make any part of his body intangible, and that intangible part gets sent to Kamui land. When he makes it tangible again, that body part returns from Kamui land.


I know how the intangibility or kamui works alone. I even posted some scan about that and explained some details. And then you even dare to tell to me that I ignore you.



Drake said:


> By your logic, the very fact that Obito is intangible should allow him to bypass the suction force. It is irrelevant where he sends his body while it is intangible.


The suction force should be in either dimension, because the hole isn't only in the real world. What I'm saying is:
- obito can switch part of his body to the kamui land or the real world
- Kakashi create a hole, what's in the real world is send to the kamui land, what's in the kamui land is send to the real world.
- obito use his jutsu to become intangible and kakashi creates the kamui on him. Technically if obito is in one world with his jutsu he would just be brought to the other world with the kamui. In any case the kamui can interact with obito because it's a hole at the same time in the two dimension and obito is in one or the other (or better, maybe with some piece), so for the kamui he isn't really intangible.


----------



## Drake (Jul 21, 2016)

You actually may be right about Obito wanting to be sucked in Kamui. It appears that Kakashi was attempting to suck in the Jubi, and Obito blocked Kakashi from doing that by getting in the way. However, I still believe that intangibles can be affected by suction based on the fact that they are affected by other laws of physics. 



> Not really. If he had a mass and a density then he wouldn't be intangible. The "I have a mass but I just put that in a different dimension" is obito/kakashi intangibility. Lille don't do the same thing.



He still has mass, he just makes that mass intangible, allowing other objects to pass through it. If he had no mass, then he would constantly be moving at the speed of light like all other massless objects.



> For the third you are even arguing about his firearms that:
> - is used when he is tangible for almost all the time



Pretty sure he fired while in X-Axis, which is when he is intangible.



> - could even be similar to our gun and that's all



It is similar because it needs to prevent recoil. Yours is the weaker argument here. Why do guns have grips? To reduce recoil. You are arguing that it is all just aesthetic appeal, which is a very weak argument. Lol, and you actually say that I am the one writing "fanfiction."



> really dude, you have to prove that kamui can work on someone intangible in the first place, you can't go on with this vague as fuck statement of physic when arguing about someone who can destroy space while intangible and someone who can create a hole in reality with his magic energy. Really.



It's not vague just because you can't counter it. It makes perfect sense that if an intangible follows the laws of physics, suction forces will not be an exception. You are acting as if posting scans is the only way to prove things, which is ridiculous.



Bad Wolf said:


> They state that "works on 5 senses" but they don't always works on all 5 of them, for example the old mizukage was a strong genjutsu user but his illusion was affecting only the sight



You literally just proved that genjutsu can work on all five senses. Just because Gengetsu didn't affect all five senses in that one instance doesn't mean he can't. 



> That's quite different. Aizen can use KS to alter reiatsu (and so chakra with the rules of the OBD) + soul sensing so a shinigami can't see the difference with that. Genjutsu don't alter that perception, rather people in naruto who can sense chakra very well or have a sharingan/byakugan normally can see trough illusion searching for the chakra of the user or looking if their chakra is having any imbalance.



Genjutsu does alter chakra perception, though, so those with strong resistance to genjutsu should also be able to see through KS.


----------



## Divell (Jul 21, 2016)

Drake said:


> Genjutsu does alter chakra perception, though, so those with strong resistance to genjutsu should also be able to see through KS.


it doesn't.


----------



## Bad Wolf (Jul 21, 2016)

Drake said:


> You actually may be right about Obito wanting to be sucked in Kamui. It appears that Kakashi was attempting to suck in the Jubi, and Obito blocked Kakashi from doing that by getting in the way.


Ok


Drake said:


> However, I still believe that intangibles can be affected by suction based on the fact that they are affected by other laws of physics.



The law of physics is a very pulled topic. It's way more arguable about the hole caused by the the kamui than the pull itself.


Drake said:


> He still has mass, he just makes that mass intangible, allowing other objects to pass through it. If he had no mass, then he would constantly be moving at the speed of light like all other massless objects.


Or maybe not because it's a manga so stuff like that doesn't work in the first place. Even saying "he just makes the mass intangible" what would mean? From the world perspective he doesn't have a mass, he doesn't have a density, it's atoms can't be touched/pushed or stuff like that. 



Drake said:


> Pretty sure he fired while in X-Axis, which is when he is intangible.


Pretty sure or he fired? It's pretty clear



Drake said:


> It is similar because it needs to prevent recoil. Yours is the weaker argument here. Why do guns have grips? To reduce recoil. You are arguing that it is all just aesthetic appeal, which is a very weak argument. Lol, and you actually say that I am the one writing "fanfiction."


Errrr you are speaking about the recoil of a gun that don't even fire bullets but just delete space. That was just bad, man. Second, really it's a common trope to have something that's similar to stuff of the real word but works in a different way, want to speak about zampakutou? Evolution of the hollows? Really. That's what you think is a good arguments... It's pretty sad



Drake said:


> It's not vague just because you can't counter it.


No, really, you speak about law of physic followed by an intangible soul. The 3 laws of newton, chosen because maybe you like them when they just don't follow other rules and you even bring false evidence in the series like I said



Drake said:


> You are acting as if posting scans is the only way to prove things, which is ridiculous.


Oh sorry, it's better to write some fanfic of the powers of the people. You can make arguments and use logic for stuff supported by the manga not things that aren't correlated like kamui land being endless or gravity affecting the intangible chicken. 



Drake said:


> You literally just proved that genjutsu can work on all five senses. Just because Gengetsu didn't affect all five senses in that one instance doesn't mean he can't.


Can work on 5 sense is a thing, working at the same time in 5 senses is another. And not even enough to counter KS. I posted an evidence that a genjutsu that affect only the sight can be strong in the verse with the mizukage.
Then we can say that tsukuyomi affect all 5 of them (even if we saw... 3 of them?) + time perception. Ok? For that it's like KS, 5 senses + time perception, ok? Kakashi got fucked really bad by tsukuyomi, why would he be able to counter KS?



Drake said:


> Genjutsu does alter chakra perception, though, so those with strong resistance to genjutsu should also be able to see through KS.


When genjutsu altered chakra perception? As I showed many time people watched their chakra or other's to see if they were in a genjutsu, I really can't remember any altering of that. And as I said seeing through some genjutsu is quite different from seeing through all of them. KS can alter many more things than normal genjutsu, even a few more than tsukuyomi that can fuck pretty much everyone


----------



## Drake (Jul 21, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Or maybe not because it's a manga so stuff like that doesn't work in the first place. Even saying "he just makes the mass intangible" what would mean? From the world perspective he doesn't have a mass, he doesn't have a density, it's atoms can't be touched/pushed or stuff like that.



I just proved to you why he has mass. He is not moving at the speed of light. Counter that, and don't keep deflecting.



> Errrr you are speaking about the recoil of a gun that don't even fire bullets but just delete space. That was just bad, man.



True, I used a bad example. Still, you don't need to get so mad over an argument about fictional characters. I'm perfectly willing to accept when I am wrong, as I did now and in my last post, but you seem to be taking this to a personal level.

Instead, let us look at another example of Lille Barro following Newton's Third Law. Lille uses his wings to fly, and his wings push down on the air, which in turn causes the air to push Lille upwards.



> No, really, you speak about law of physic followed by an intangible soul. The 3 laws of newton, chosen because maybe you like them when they just don't follow other rules and you even bring false evidence in the series like I said



Which laws does he not follow?



> Oh sorry, it's better to write some fanfic of the powers of the people. You can make arguments and use logic for stuff supported by the manga not things that aren't correlated like kamui land being endless or gravity affecting the intangible chicken.



I am using logic, and I am backing my logic up with examples from the manga. There is no scan of Lille being unable to avoid a suction force because he has never encountered a suction force in Bleach before, and therefore you must use outside data.



> Can work on 5 sense is a thing, working at the same time in 5 senses is another. And not even enough to counter KS. I posted an evidence that a genjutsu that affect only the sight can be strong in the verse with the mizukage.



Genjutsu has been shown to work on multiple senses at the same time, as evidenced by Sasuke's illusion of Itachi against Danzo. You think just because Danzo didn't reach over and taste the Itachi illusion means that genjutsu is weaker than KS? When have we seen someone under KS taste something?



> When genjutsu altered chakra perception? As I showed many time people watched their chakra or other's to see if they were in a genjutsu, I really can't remember any altering of that.



Sorry, I meant to say it alters the chakra of the affected person. What do you mean by KS altering reiatsu perception? Can you give me an example of when that happened? Not saying you're wrong, but I just can't remember any instances off the top of my head.


----------



## Bad Wolf (Jul 21, 2016)

Drake said:


> I just proved to you why he has mass. He is not moving at the speed of light. Counter that, and don't keep deflecting.


You can't apply physics like that in a manga series. Even because someone can come and say "lille move at speed of light. Prove that he's not" so it's moot point. Even because you're quite saying very "hard to believe" things... like gravity affecting photons in newton physic. It's in theory of general relativity of Einstein that's "gravity" affect photon but that's not even true, because space and time can become distorted around massive objects and the light simply follows this distorted curvature of space. And usually photons are really "pulled" only by black holes. So unless you're trying to say that kamui has a dragging force of a black hole it's useless. Even because, as I already said, it's a very "hard to believe" arguments that Lille can't have a mass unless he travels at speed of light. Do I even need to say that they have fucking reiatsu that's like fucking magic?



Drake said:


> True, I used a bad example. Still, you don't need to get so mad over an argument about fictional characters. I'm perfectly willing to accept when I am wrong, as I did now and in my last post, but you seem to be taking this to a personal level.


Ok, sorry. But it's really difficult to tell if you are trolling the hell of out me or trying to be serious.



Drake said:


> Instead, let us look at another example of Lille Barro following Newton's Third Law. Lille uses his wings to fly, and his wings push down on the air, which in turn causes the air to push Lille upwards.


read the first line. Even with that...
- he's got wings but we never saw him to push down air, instead we saw him standing still in the air
- as you saw, he have the power to destroy space, destroying atoms without having a recoil
- he's a quincy, he can take energy from stuff like particles
- he's a soul. And no, we don't have any laws for souls.
I can go on, but it's pointless. You can't even speak of non elementar physics in a manga if there isn't a very specific recall.



Drake said:


> There is no scan of Lille being unable to avoid a suction force because he has never encountered a suction force in Bleach before, and therefore you must use outside data.


And we never even saw kamui working on someone intangible. We go by feats, not assumption



Drake said:


> Genjutsu has been shown to work on multiple senses at the same time, as evidenced by Sasuke's illusion of Itachi against Danzo. You think just because Danzo didn't reach over and taste the Itachi illusion means that genjutsu is weaker than KS? When have we seen someone under KS taste something?


You mean tsukuyomi again?

Because we saw that kakashi couldn't even get out of it so it's even pointless to speak about tsukuyomi vs KS. We know that KS passed even a medical exams by unohana, that's even more than that



Drake said:


> Sorry, I meant to say it alters the chakra of the affected person. What do you mean by KS altering reiatsu perception? Can you give me an example of when that happened? Not saying you're wrong, but I just can't remember any instances off the top of my head.


I mean that when Aizen use his KS to looks like someone else no one can tell he's someone else by his reiatsu. Or searching his souls when he's hiding or moving. And using the reiatsu of your opponents it's something that they do so often that kyoraku even use a technique for that

And on top of that, Yamamoto thought that by having aizen's sword in his stomach he wouldn't be able to mistake the reiatsu of Aizen


----------



## Drake (Jul 21, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> You can't apply physics like that in a manga series.



Just because there are things in manga that don't exist in the real world doesn't mean that you can throw all the natural laws of the universe out the window. 



> Even because you're quite saying very "hard to believe" things... like gravity affecting photons in newton physic. It's in theory of general relativity of Einstein that's "gravity" affect photon but that's not even true, because space and time can become distorted around massive objects and the light simply follows this distorted curvature of space. And usually photons are really "pulled" only by black holes. So unless you're trying to say that kamui has a dragging force of a black hole it's useless.



What are you even trying to say here. Lille is composed solely of photons? And other posters have already said that the suction force of Kamui is most likely not gravity, so I don't know why you're bringing that up.



> Ok, sorry. But it's really difficult to tell if you are trolling the hell of out me or trying to be serious.



Again with the hostility. Don't take me disagreeing with you to a personal level. Take a deep breath and recognize the fact that literally nothing of any value will change due to the outcome of this debate. 

I'd suggest backing out of this debate now. I won't consider it a "victory" for myself or whatever since you are clearly having difficulty separating a silly online debate from real life. That's perfectly fine; sometimes everybody needs a break from the internet.



> - he's got wings but we never saw him to push down air, instead we saw him standing still in the air



We did, actually. When he is trapped in Shunsui's water, Lille attempts to flap his wings, indicating that flapping is his normal method of flight.



> And we never even saw kamui working on someone intangible.



Because it has never been attempted on someone intangible. Here you are, claiming that Kamui cannot affect an intangible despite it never being used on one. Here I am, claiming it can affect an intangible despite it never being used on one. How do we settle this? Outside data. 




> You mean tsukuyomi again?



That wasn't Tsukoyomi. Sasuke is incapable of using it; Itachi is the only known user. 

Proof: Databook, and Danzo's words in that encounter.



> I mean that when Aizen use his KS to looks like someone else no one can tell he's someone else by his reiatsu. Or searching his souls when he's hiding or moving. And using the reiatsu of your opponents it's something that they do so often that kyoraku even use a technique for that
> 
> And on top of that, Yamamoto thought that by having aizen's sword in his stomach he wouldn't be able to mistake the reiatsu of Aizen



Genjutsu also has similar feats. Danzo mistook an illusion for the real Itachi.


----------



## Bad Wolf (Jul 22, 2016)

Drake said:


> Just because there are things in manga that don't exist in the real world doesn't mean that you can throw all the natural laws of the universe out the window.


not all but you can't even make an entire arguments about physics if it's never showed like that.



Drake said:


> What are you even trying to say here. Lille is composed solely of photons? And other posters have already said that the suction force of Kamui is most likely not gravity, so I don't know why you're bringing that up.


I'm trying to say that Lille can not have a mass while not being made of photons like you were saying. He's intangible for his power, that's like magic and don't have to follow physics so closely. You said that if lille don't have a mass than he has to go at the speed of light otherwise he have it. That just your assumption



Drake said:


> Again with the hostility. Don't take me disagreeing with you to a personal level. Take a deep breath and recognize the fact that literally nothing of any value will change due to the outcome of this debate.
> 
> I'd suggest backing out of this debate now. I won't consider it a "victory" for myself or whatever since you are clearly having difficulty separating a silly online debate from real life. That's perfectly fine; sometimes everybody needs a break from the internet.


what the fuck are you talking about mr freud? I can say that I was rude but now don't start to act as I dropped a bomb for the arguments lol



Drake said:


> We did, actually. When he is trapped in Shunsui's water, Lille attempts to flap his wings, indicating that flapping is his normal method of flight.


Yeap, that's true, but don't change the fact that in any other moment he was standing still without flapping



Drake said:


> Because it has never been attempted on someone intangible. Here you are, claiming that Kamui cannot affect an intangible despite it never being used on one. Here I am, claiming it can affect an intangible despite it never being used on one. How do we settle this? Outside data.


not really. Lille is intangible with everything that means that. You don't have to prove that he's affected by the heat for example or stuff like that even if we haven't seen because he's intangible. If having a hole in reality to another dimension , or if the kamui have a feat, is something that can affect intangibles then he could work. but, as I said from the start, it's even pointless, he can't be trapped in other dimension so easily and even if kakashi can and use kamui to behead Lille he will come back



Drake said:


> That wasn't Tsukoyomi. Sasuke is incapable of using it; Itachi is the only known user.
> 
> Proof: Databook, and Danzo's words in that encounter.


true, but I don't see then why it sould show anything. Danzou even say that sasuke's illusion are weaker that Itachi's because he can't even alter the perception of time. And you said that "Genjutsu has been shown to work on multiple senses at the same time, as evidenced by Sasuke's illusion of Itachi against Danzo" but with the illusion of itachi and the illusion of the fake eye I see only an illusion of the sight for the eye, and sight+hearing with the crows.


So I can't see your points, it's not even connected to kakashi.



Drake said:


> Genjutsu also has similar feats. Danzo mistook an illusion for the real Itachi.


As I said, that quite different, he never even touched it. it's always 2 senses at max and kakashi don't have anything with that illusion, he may be able to see though that illusion of sasuke but it would be more clear to see some feats of him


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 22, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> Same reason Kaguya's only planet-level for her dimension bust.



Kaguya is only planet level because we never see her do anything better than that 

her dimension clearly had a sun in it


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 22, 2016)

also iirc you teleport in kamui by going to the corresponding location which I guess would make it continent sized at least


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 22, 2016)

Well, kamui land and kaguya's dimension are different location, as obito said and showed


----------



## BreakFlame (Jul 22, 2016)

Nighty said:


> Kaguya is only planet level because we never see her do anything better than that
> 
> her dimension clearly had a sun in it



SS level Kaguya? I can deal with this


----------



## Drake (Jul 22, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> not all but you can't even make an entire arguments about physics if it's never showed like that.



I don't understand what you're saying. What is "never showed like that"? There is definitely physics in Bleach.

And if we can't argue about physics, then what can we use to debate this issue? Nothing.



> I'm trying to say that Lille can not have a mass while not being made of photons like you were saying.



Massless objects that move at light speed don't have to be photons. 



> He's intangible for his power, that's like magic and don't have to follow physics so closely. You said that if lille don't have a mass than he has to go at the speed of light otherwise he have it. That just your assumption



That's not an assumption. That is a fact of the universe. It is your assumption that he doesn't have mass. I proved he has to have mass by citing the laws of the universe. Where's your proof that he doesn't have mass?



> what the fuck are you talking about mr freud? I can say that I was rude but now don't start to act as I dropped a bomb for the arguments lol



Well, you called my arguments "trolling" just because you didn't agree with them in a feeble attempt to devalue them.



> Yeap, that's true, but don't change the fact that in any other moment he was standing still without flapping



I just proved that he could flap his wings, which means that he follows Newton's Third Law. Levitation still follows the Third Law, by the way.



> not really. Lille is intangible with everything that means that. You don't have to prove that he's affected by the heat for example or stuff like that even if we haven't seen because he's intangible.



He isn't affected by stuff that can hit him or damage him. A suction force acts completely differently, because it draws him in, just as gravity does (I am not saying that Kamui suction = gravity, just that they work very similarly). If I were claiming that Kakashi could somehow use his Lightning Blade to skewer Lille, then that would be a bad argument. 



> And you said that "Genjutsu has been shown to work on multiple senses at the same time, as evidenced by Sasuke's illusion of Itachi against Danzo" but with the illusion of itachi and the illusion of the fake eye I see only an illusion of the sight for the eye, and sight+hearing with the crows.



Sight: the vision of Itachi. Sound: Itachi saying "die." Touch: Danzo being burned by the fake Amaterasu flames. Smell and sound obviously cannot be proven.



> As I said, that quite different, he never even touched it.



He doesn't need to touch it. By it's chakra signature, Danzo was convinced that it was the real Itachi. You think a high-level, experienced ninja like Danzo would mistake a ninja based on sight alone given how prevalent and easy the transformation technique is used? 

And I don't think I need to explain why if Danzo can break it, Kakashi can as well. I thought that was fairly obvious.


----------



## LazyWaka (Jul 22, 2016)

Can someone TL;DR what exactly is being discussed right now?


----------



## Bad Wolf (Jul 22, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> Can someone TL;DR what exactly is being discussed right now?


a bit of kyoraku vs kakashi (can kyoraku escape from that? and a bit of earlier reply about kakashi clearing bleachverse in gauntlet style



Drake said:


> I don't understand what you're saying. What is "never showed like that"? There is definitely physics in Bleach.
> 
> And if we can't argue about physics, then what can we use to debate this issue? Nothing.


There's, but there's even reiatsu that acts like magic. You can discuss with feats, but you can't deny a feats only because it doesn't follow all the laws of physic. There are character in some series that can move faster than light and you can deny that because you want to follow physic for that thing. Same thing with lille, he can be without mass or density without moving at the speed of light. 


Drake said:


> That's not an assumption. That is a fact of the universe. It is your assumption that he doesn't have mass. I proved he has to have mass by citing the laws of the universe. Where's your proof that he doesn't have mass?


The simple fact that he's intangible maybe? Anything can't touch him, even energy attack or stuff like that. 



Drake said:


> Well, you called my arguments "trolling" just because you didn't agree with them in a feeble attempt to devalue them.


No, because you were really trolling. For example you deny feats like the dimension escape  and want to say that the kamui can affect someone intangible even without having a feat for that. 



Drake said:


> I just proved that he could flap his wings, which means that he follows Newton's Third Law. Levitation still follows the Third Law, by the way.


err, if we want to be honest he was flapping but he wasn't moving. Earlier he was still, no flapping, and suspended in air, not affected by gravity 


Drake said:


> He isn't affected by stuff that can hit him or damage him. A suction force acts completely differently, because it draws him in, just as gravity does (I am not saying that Kamui suction = gravity, just that they work very similarly).


how a pull works? You apply some force to move something. That's the problem, you have to apply the force to the atoms of lille to pull him, but you can't touch his atom and so that's why attacking him don't even move him. A push can't work because of this, is clear now?



Drake said:


> Sight: the vision of Itachi. Sound: Itachi saying "die." Touch: Danzo being burned by the fake Amaterasu flames. Smell and sound obviously cannot be proven.


touch is a bit wonky seeing as danzou wasn't really feeling the burn. He was rather quiet, in fact that was more a diversion. Anyway, as I said, kakashi never was affected by an illusion of sasuke and this level of control is below KS


Drake said:


> He doesn't need to touch it.


to prove that it affects touch I'd say yes.



Drake said:


> By it's chakra signature,


Is danzou even a sensitive ninja? Anyway this "manipulation of chakra perception" isn't showed in this particular genjutsu



Drake said:


> Danzo was convinced that it was the real Itachi.


Well, he was surprised for like a few seconds



Drake said:


> You think a high-level, experienced ninja like Danzo would mistake a ninja based on sight alone given how prevalent and easy the transformation technique is used?


Yes? It's like a basic strategy of naruto, I think he even used against obito, Killer bee even did a similar things with Sasuke.



Drake said:


> And I don't think I need to explain why if Danzo can break it, Kakashi can as well. I thought that was fairly obvious.


That's not so easy. Resistance to genjutsu is something that every ninja train in a different way, in a high level fight the only one that fight with that is Itachi and sometimes sasuke, but as this example shows it's more a distraction


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## Drake (Jul 22, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> You can discuss with feats, but you can't deny a feats only because it doesn't follow all the laws of physic.



I agree. Show me a feat of Lille avoiding a suction force while intangible and I will concede.



> There are character in some series that can move faster than light and you can deny that because you want to follow physic for that thing. Same thing with lille, he can be without mass or density without moving at the speed of light.



Not the same thing. If a character is said to move faster than the speed of light, then yes, we will have to say that this character's abilities trumps the laws of physics. However, it was never stated that Lille has no mass, nor was it ever shown that he had no mass. Being intangible is not equivalent to being massless.



> The simple fact that he's intangible maybe? Anything can't touch him, even energy attack or stuff like that.



Your argument is that he is intangible and therefore he can avoid a suction force. An energy force and "stuff like that" is not equivalent to a suction force.



> No, because you were really trolling. For example you deny feats like the dimension escape  and want to say that the kamui can affect someone intangible even without having a feat for that.



I proved my points. If you want to stay mad, then go ahead. I suppose there is nothing I can do if you insist on taking an argument about fictional characters so personally. 



> err, if we want to be honest he was flapping but he wasn't moving.



Where did it show him flapping but not moving?



> how a pull works? You apply some force to move something. That's the problem, you have to apply the force to the atoms of lille to pull him, but you can't touch his atom and so that's why attacking him don't even move him. A push can't work because of this, is clear now?



If nothing in the universe can touch his atoms, then how does gravity affect him?



> touch is a bit wonky seeing as danzou wasn't really feeling the burn.



Look at his face in that panel. He had a pained expression, and there would be no need to conjure flames around Danzo if they wouldn't hurt him.



> Anyway, as I said, kakashi never was affected by an illusion of sasuke



So? If Danzo could break it, so could Kakashi.



> Is danzou even a sensitive ninja?



Any half-decent ninja can see through a transformation jutsu, and Danzo is Kage-level.



> Well, he was surprised for like a few seconds



So we agree. He then stopped being surprised when he broke the illusion.



> Yes? It's like a basic strategy of naruto, I think he even used against obito, Killer bee even did a similar things with Sasuke.



Transformation is an E-ranked jutsu. Naruto's shuriken transformations can't be used because he was transformed for less than a second and it was during the heat of battle. Link/chapter number to the Bee/Sasuke one?


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 22, 2016)

Drake said:


> I agree. Show me a feat of Lille avoiding a suction force while intangible and I will concede.


Again, You have to prove it. I don't need to bring evidence that of the fact that he's intangible, we already know that. You have to prove that a suction force is an exception



Drake said:


> However, it was never stated that Lille has no mass, nor was it ever shown that he had no mass. Being intangible is not equivalent to being massless.


eerrrr Yes it is. Or better, is the same thing, you can't be affected by stuff that work on physical stuff. The fact that lille don't hide his real body like obito is like not having a mass or a density



Drake said:


> Your argument is that he is intangible and therefore he can avoid a suction force. An energy force and "stuff like that" is not equivalent to a suction force.


It's even like the third time you change how you describe the pull of the kamui. At first was gravity, now a generical force. At least have a clear idea.
Any energy or even a normal slash is something that create a force on the target, a suction force is the same, they all apply a force on some particles/atoms and as we saw lille's particles/atoms can't be affected by stuff like that. You are separating things without logic, it's like saying that a push is a complete different things from a pull.



Drake said:


> I proved my points. If you want to stay mad, then go ahead. I suppose there is nothing I can do if you insist on taking an argument about fictional characters so personally.


If you are ok with that why are you still arguing about that? It's like that if someone is being touched by all of this is you



Drake said:


> Where did it show him flapping but not moving?


in the same scan where's flapping. He's flapping but he says that the surface isn't moving close, rather the opposite



Drake said:


> If nothing in the universe can touch his atoms, then how does gravity affect him?


well, when gravity even affected him in the first place? flapping is moving through air or in the water in this case. But you can't really use this case for  something general because that's kyoraku's bankai, not normal water and even his shikai have some (little) degree of reality warping



Drake said:


> Look at his face in that panel. He had a pained expression, and there would be no need to conjure flames around Danzo if they wouldn't hurt him.





Drake said:


> So? If Danzo could break it, so could Kakashi.


In what pannel? the first we saw isn't even in pain at all, I'd say it's more surprised by the attack like if he expected to feel pain but as we saw he doesn't feel pain at all

We even see him cloaked in flame but without having any feeling of burn. I'd even say that he notices that he's in an illusion because he can't feel the amaterasu, before he was surprised and angry at the presence of itachi.

So it's really like what you were saying, if danzou touched Itachi probably he wouldn't have perceived anything, Sasuke illusion was only affecting his sight and hearing and Danzou was caught until he saw that with common sense (no burn from amaterasu? that's a genjutsu!). He even say that he was trapped in the illusion



Drake said:


> Any half-decent ninja can see through a transformation jutsu, and Danzo is Kage-level.


that's different. Is danzou a sensitive ninja?



Drake said:


> So we agree. He then stopped being surprised when he broke the illusion.


like I said in some lines above, he escaped from common logic from the fact of not feeling burned by amaterasu. KS can even pass a medical exam, it's way way more sophisticated



Drake said:


> Transformation is an E-ranked jutsu. Naruto's shuriken transformations can't be used because he was transformed for less than a second and it was during the heat of battle. Link/chapter number to the Bee/Sasuke one?


In the heat of battle but obito have a sharingan and was fooled by that. KS is used in the same way but it's more sophisticated than that jutsu.
Killer bee is quite a bad feat for sasuke, obito and many members of the akatsuki
After they beated him


Obito take the body the their headquarter

they start extracting the bijuu


at the same time, killer bee


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## God (Jul 22, 2016)

Ok this thread has run its course. Locking.


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## God (Jul 22, 2016)

Is what I would say if I was a mod.

I am still not a mod


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## LazyWaka (Jul 22, 2016)

Genjutsu is stated to effect all five senses, not just a few.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 22, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> Genjutsu is stated to effect all five senses, not just a few.


Yes, but not all genjutsu works on all the 5 senses at the same time and "affecting all 5 senses" doesn't tell much if they still can be tricked by only visual illusion or stuff like that. KS is even above affecting only 5 senses


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## Drake (Jul 23, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Again, You have to prove it. I don't need to bring evidence that of the fact that he's intangible, we already know that. You have to prove that a suction force is an exception



I never said that you have to prove that he is an intangible. You do have to prove, however, that he is invulnerable to a suction force considering he follows all the other laws of physics (save for objects going through him, which is his ability). If you can't even agree to that, then it shows that you have no real argument and that you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.



> eerrrr Yes it is. Or better, is the same thing, you can't be affected by stuff that work on physical stuff. The fact that lille don't hide his real body like obito is like not having a mass or a density



No, that does not prove that he has no mass. His mass is just intangible, not completely gone (proof: he is not moving at the speed of light). Really, the only way you can prove me wrong is by posting a scan of someone stating that Lille has no mass.



> It's even like the third time you change how you describe the pull of the kamui. At first was gravity, now a generical force. At least have a clear idea.



Wow, you are ignorant. I literally said last post that it is probably a suction force, and that it works similarly to gravity. I haven't called it a gravitational force since very early on in this thread. Unlike you, I can accept when I am wrong.



> Any energy or even a normal slash is something that create a force on the target, a suction force is the same, they all apply a force on some particles/atoms and as we saw lille's particles/atoms can't be affected by stuff like that. You are separating things without logic, it's like saying that a push is a complete different things from a pull.



Let me make this simple for you: Lille is affected by gravity. Gravity pushes on atoms. Therefore, Lille's atoms are not immune to physical forces. A suction force is a physical force. Therefore, Lille is affected by it.



> If you are ok with that why are you still arguing about that? It's like that if someone is being touched by all of this is you



Just looking out for you, man. Sad to see someone get so angry about fictional characters, so I was trying to help you.



> in the same scan where's flapping. He's flapping but he says that the surface isn't moving close, rather the opposite



Because the water pressure from Shunsui's bankai is forcing him down faster than he can flap up.



> well, when gravity even affected him in the first place?



When he uses X-Axis for the first time and becomes intangible, he is still affected by gravity. If he were not, he would start flying up into the air and floating.



> In what pannel? the first we saw isn't even in pain at all, I'd say it's more surprised by the attack like if he expected to feel pain but as we saw he doesn't feel pain at all



Bottom right. That is a clear expression of pain. Proof, if that clear representation isn't enough for you: this site for more information about facial expressions and pain: 



> In the heat of battle but obito have a sharingan and was fooled by that.



Link? 



> Killer bee is quite a bad feat for sasuke, obito and many members of the akatsuki
> After they beated him
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, that. That tentacle literally has Killer Bee's and Hachibi's chakra in it.


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## Danya322 (Jul 23, 2016)

Kakashi, bleach stats wanked af

Reactions: Like 1


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## Divell (Jul 23, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> Genjutsu is stated to effect all five senses, not just a few.


No, it works through one of the five senses, and it works on the victim's chakra conducts on the brain. It doesn't work on the five senses.



Danya322 said:


> Kakashi, bleach stats wanked af


Mach 500+ Shunsui, what's Kakashi's speed? Mach 400+? they are close in my opinion.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Divell (Jul 23, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> Can someone TL;DR what exactly is being discussed right now?


Kakashi vs Kyoraku/Bleachverse, somehow people think Kakashi can solo the entirety of Bleach.


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## LazyWaka (Jul 23, 2016)

Divell said:


> Kakashi vs Kyoraku/Bleachverse, somehow people think Kakashi can solo the entirety of Bleach.



All at once? Not a chance.

Gauntlet style? Only those with high level regen, dimension traveling, and/or resistance to spatial attacks are beating him (which is pretty much limited to Aizen, Lille, and Ywatch.)



Divell said:


> No, it works through one of the five senses, and it works on the victim's chakra conducts on the brain. It doesn't work on the five senses.



No, it works on all five, its just activated through one depending on the genjutsu. Might as well downplay KS since it only activates through sight by that logic.



Divell said:


> Mach 500+ Shunsui, what's Kakashi's speed? Mach 400+? they are close in my opinion.



DMS Kakashi probably benefits from the mach 4000 calc.


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## Divell (Jul 23, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> All at once? Not a chance.Gauntlet style? Only those with high level regen, dimension traveling, and/or resistance to spatial attacks are beating him (which is pretty much limited to Aizen, Lille, and Ywatch.)


Actually, even low tiers travel through dimensions, and most espadas have descents regeneration when transforming, Kenpachi when transformed also had a regeneration considering his injuries heal up, and anyone who knows kidou can heal himself, Vizard and anyone who has Hollow abilities also has a healing factor of low tier, but enough to heal bad injuries. 




LazyWaka said:


> No, it works on all five, its just activated through one depending on the genjutsu. Might as well downplay KS since it only activates through sight by that logic.


Not the same, Kyoka Suigetsu works in all senses (not just limited on sight, smell, touch, taste, etc) but also includes all types of senses. 

Which basically makes anyone his bitch. A Genjutsu is this *something that works in the opponent's' five senses*, 

there are Genjutsu that are casted bia hearing, smell, sight, etc, you know that already. But it doesn't just stays there, it isn't just as simple as that, *to control the chakra flowing through and linking their cranial nerves* and it needs a high lv of control to do it. That's why you can't compare it with Kyoka Suigetsu, considering   
Kyoka Suigetsu isn't just limited to the traditional senses, and we find it when Aizen disrupted Yhwach's sense of time, it is far above that. 

And it works differently, considering Genjutsu work in your brain, making you think you are doing things when you are not even moving or simply make you do things your are not even aware you are doing, but Kyoka Suigetsu doesn't do that, you can still move, fight, etc, but everything around you is not like the real thing unless Aizen wants it to be. More so, to defeat Genjutsu if you use more power to disrupt you chakra flow, you cancel the genjutsu in other words, you simply need to have more energy that the one casting the Genjutsu, with Kyoka Suigetsu, is different than that, far different in fact the only way to defeat it, is touching Kyoka Suigetsu's sealed state

you can't compare them in the first place. Just because the word illusion and senses are in the same sentences when you talk about them. 



LazyWaka said:


> DMS Kakashi probably benefits from the mach 4000 calc.


What calc? the one from The Last? Naruto is stronger in that time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LazyWaka (Jul 23, 2016)

Divell said:


> Actually, even low tiers travel through dimensions, and most espadas have descents regeneration when transforming, Kenpachi when transformed also had a regeneration considering his injuries heal up, and anyone who knows kidou can heal himself, Vizard and anyone who has Hollow abilities also has a healing factor of low tier, but enough to heal bad injuries.



Aside from hollows, most characters require specific means to travel dimensions. Most Shinigami use a gate that specifically only works between earth and SS. They've always needed special means to get to and from anywhere else.

And "decent" regen is not high regen. Kamui sniping some ones head off is above what *almost* anyone in bleach is capable of regenerating from. (before anyone flips out take note of that "almost" I bolded.)

I'm done with the genjutsu discussion as it has little to do with the discussion and it isn't really going anywhere.

The mach 4000 calc is from the Juubi's BB speed which most God tiers benefit from in some capacity.


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## Divell (Jul 23, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> Aside from hollows, most characters require specific means to travel dimensions. Most Shinigami use a gate that specifically only works between earth and SS. They've always needed special means to get to and from anywhere else.
> 
> And "decent" regen is not high regen. Kamui sniping some ones head off is above what *almost* anyone in bleach is capable of regenerating from. (before anyone flips out take note of that "almost" I bolded.)
> 
> ...


Can i get the link? Also no, considering Juubi has the highest DC in the series after Toneri and maybe amped Kaguya.


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## LazyWaka (Jul 23, 2016)

You're joking right? The Juubi (or at least the incomplete one that the alliance fought) is the weakest of the god tiers in the series (to the point where a lot of people don't think he even qualifies as one anymore.) Juubito, Rikudou Madara, 8 gated Gai, SPSM Naruto, Rinnegan Sasuke, DMS Kakashi, Momoshiki (and arguably Kinshiki), Toneri, and Kaguya are all vastly above it.

As for the calc. It was lost in the flutter purge of 2014/2015. That said, Kaguya was still the absolute strongest in the series even after the Last and Boruto movies, and Kakashi could at least react to her, so he benefits from the mach 7500 calc from the Last, if only for reactions (which is all he really needs considering the nature of his power.)


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## Divell (Jul 23, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> You're joking right? The Juubi (or at least the incomplete one that the alliance fought) is the weakest of the god tiers in the series (to the point where a lot of people don't think he even qualifies as one anymore.) Juubito, Rikudou Madara, 8 gated Gai, SPSM Naruto, Rinnegan Sasuke, DMS Kakashi, Momoshiki (and arguably Kinshiki), Toneri, and Kaguya are all vastly above it.
> 
> As for the calc. It was lost in the flutter purge of 2014/2015. That said, Kaguya was still the absolute strongest in the series even after the Last and Boruto movies, and Kakashi could at least react to her, so he benefits from the mach 7500 calc from the Last, if only for reactions (which is all he really needs considering the nature of his power.)


Yes he was causing more damage than Naruto and Sasuke in their final fight. Heck Madara and Hashirama's final explosion was easily on the same lv as Naruto and Sasuke's clash that was destroying Susano'o (not the final). Juubi is above Kyuubi. Which is basically Naruto's main power. A Jinchuuriki in their base is weaker than the Bijuu itself, that much should be shown with Kyuubi alone.

Scaling is good but it gets messy when we ignore feats.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 23, 2016)

Drake said:


> I never said that you have to prove that he is an intangible. You do have to prove, however, that he is invulnerable to a suction force considering he follows all the other laws of physics (save for objects going through him, which is his ability). If you can't even agree to that, then it shows that you have no real argument and that you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.


No, it's like asking some prove for the fact that he's intangible. Why would his atom/particles be touched by the suction gravity? that's the question you are avoiding and trying to say that's something that I have to prove. That's wrong, even you say that he's intangible, then why would a suction force affect him?



Drake said:


> No, that does not prove that he has no mass. His mass is just intangible, not completely gone


Not really the case, as I already said... The mass isn't completely gone only in a case like obito/kakashi. They bring their mass and density in the kamui land living only "something" that anyone can see but not interact. Lille don't bring his mass somewhere else, becoming intangible means that he can't be touched by physical stuff, he doesn't a mass. Or are you claiming that he even have a density?



Drake said:


> (proof: he is not moving at the speed of light).


that's not a prove. You want to know why? Let's say that's true, no mass then you go at the speed of light with our physics. Ok, then let's say that we know for sure that Lille don't have a mass. Here, in OBD, that won't really matter because in fiction there's something like magic. That's why there's a difference between lightning and magical lightning or light and magical light. Or any strange feats involving magic, many time is threat as a magic effects without connection with physics. that's like complaining because someone can move faster than light but then with speed gain force and stuff that follow basic law of physics



Drake said:


> Let me make this simple for you: Lille is affected by gravity. Gravity pushes on atoms. Therefore, Lille's atoms are not immune to physical forces. A suction force is a physical force. Therefore, Lille is affected by it.


> affected by gravity
> standing still in the air without having any force to resist gravity
ok.
On top of that, every strike or kidou never moved him



Drake said:


> Wow, *you are ignorant*. I literally said last post that it is probably a suction force, and that it works similarly to gravity. I haven't called it a gravitational force since very early on in this thread. Unlike you, I can accept when I am wrong.


Lol and you are even so stupid that at first you complained about something like that. And on top of that you can't even read, I said that you don't even know what the "kamui's pull force" is and others have even to tell that you were wrong. You started with gravity (and even claimed that it's like a black hole LOOOL), then pressure, a wormhole, suction force, similar-to-gravity. Just decide how to call it, every 3-4 post you changed it. Ok that you don't have any prove for that but will you touch any possible things? Next time is heat?



Drake said:


> Just looking out for you, man. Sad to see someone get so angry about fictional characters, so I was trying to help you.


who asked for your help? who asked you to be sad? I only asked for prove of some stuff that you haven't provided, you are ever dragging on this shit.



Drake said:


> When he uses X-Axis for the first time and becomes intangible, he is still affected by gravity. If he were not, he would start flying up into the air and floating.


Not really, without gravity you simply don't get dragged down, why would he start flying up?



Drake said:


> Bottom right. That is a clear expression of pain. Proof, if that clear representation isn't enough for you: this site for more information about facial expressions and pain:


I don't see any expression of pain. He's even watching down for the kamui, then it's very clear without doubt that he doesn't feel pain because he even start to talk




Drake said:


> Oh, that. That tentacle literally has Killer Bee's and Hachibi's chakra in it.


Like every non-taijutsu? It's still a transformation jutsu that fooled him and other akatsuki like you asked, not even in combat, you can say that's good feat for the jutsu, yeah, but even mean that something like that can trick them

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## LazyWaka (Jul 23, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> I don't see any expression of pain. He's even watching down for the kamui, then it's very clear without doubt that he doesn't feel pain because he even start to talk



To be fair, the Raikage was caught by a real Amaterasu AND chopped off his arm without so much as wincing (Jiriaya didn't really show any signs of pain when losing his arm either). So it could just be a testament to pain tolerance like with the Raikage.



Divell said:


> Yes he was causing more damage than Naruto and Sasuke in their final fight. Heck Madara and Hashirama's final explosion was easily on the same lv as Naruto and Sasuke's clash that was destroying Susano'o (not the final). Juubi is above Kyuubi. Which is basically Naruto's main power. A Jinchuuriki in their base is weaker than the Bijuu itself, that much should be shown with Kyuubi alone.



I see that some ones ignoring that both Naruto and Sasuke got massive power ups from Hagoromo. Look, I'll make this simple.



Juubi jins > the Juubi itself. This is proven through both visuals and statements. And literally everyone I listed is greater than first form Juubito whole pulled this shit off. DMS Kakashi might not have the raw DC on their level, but he certainly has the reactions to keep up with them with his own feats.


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## Divell (Jul 23, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> I see that some ones ignoring that both Naruto and Sasuke got massive power ups from Hagoromo. Look, I'll make this simple.
> 
> 
> 
> Juubi jins > the Juubi itself. This is proven through both visuals and statements. And literally everyone I listed is greater than first form Juubito whole pulled this shit off. DMS Kakashi might not have the raw DC on their level, but he certainly has the reactions to keep up with them with his own feats.


Hachibi himself say it, full Kyuubi is massive but unfocus, at the contrary of Six Paths Obito, who can focus the power. Is not the same physical strength and the power they can give out. Naruto as an example can dish out more power in his Avatar Mode than in his Kurama Mode.


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## LazyWaka (Jul 23, 2016)

You're right, they don't have the same physical strength. that was made clear when Obito casually ripped apart restraints that the Juubi couldn't do shit against, phsycally or with his supercharged Bijuudama. Juubito has more raw DC than the Juubi.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Vicotex (Jul 23, 2016)

seem some guys are delibrately downplaying naruto godtiers

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Divell (Jul 23, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> You're right, they don't have the same physical strength. that was made clear when Obito casually ripped apart restraints that the Juubi couldn't do shit against, phsycally or with his supercharged Bijuudama. Juubito has more raw DC than the Juubi.


Again, focused, unfocused. See the difference or need a dictionary? And The Last Naruto is soo far above Six Path version of his that it isn't funny.


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## LazyWaka (Jul 23, 2016)

They have the same power, Juubito is just able to use it better than the juubi as shown when he could destroy shit the juubi couldn't. At the end of the day, that shows that Juubito's output is better than the Juubi's. I really don't see what you aren't grasping here.


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## Divell (Jul 23, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> They have the same power, Juubito is just able to use it better than the juubi as shown when he could destroy shit the juubi couldn't. At the end of the day, that shows that Juubito's output is better than the Juubi's. I really don't see what you aren't grasping here.


But Juubi has more destructive power, which is my point.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 23, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> To be fair, the Raikage was caught by a real Amaterasu AND chopped off his arm without so much as wincing (Jiriaya didn't really show any signs of pain when losing his arm either). So it could just be a testament to pain tolerance like with the Raikage.


that may be true, yes. But I was saying that he was too quiet by his standard, the first time he's caught by amaterasu he have a reaction

and the damage is fast enough to kill him. Using izanagi he probably the pain doesn't last long, but at the and he was clearly in pain


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## LazyWaka (Jul 23, 2016)

Except that in order for Obito to destroy something the Juubi couldn't he would have to have more destructive power. It's clearly not surface area shenanigans since Obito destroyed the barriers/restraints entirely, not just the small portions he was touching.

@Badwolf

I'm just gonna bail out of the physical pain discussion since we could be here all day posting examples of characters reacting/not reacting to getting hit by normally painful shit.


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## Divell (Jul 23, 2016)

N


LazyWaka said:


> Except that in order for Obito to destroy something the Juubi couldn't he would have to have more destructive power. It's clearly not surface area shenanigans since Obito destroyed the barriers/restraints entirely, not just the small portions he was touching.
> 
> @Badwolf
> 
> I'm just gonna bail out of the physical pain discussion since we could be here all day posting examples of characters reacting/not reacting to getting hit by normally painful shit.


Bro, you arguing strength, I'm arguing this

in physical terms Juubi isn't even worth a dime, at best we could be Edo Madara.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 23, 2016)

Juubito is >> the Juubi in every possible way.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 23, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Juubito is >> the Juubi in every possible way.


V2 and below at least. Technically Prime Juubi was Kaguya.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 23, 2016)

ofc he isnt stronger than prime Juubi. He does outclass V3 war arc Juubi though.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 24, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> I'm just gonna bail out of the physical pain discussion since we could be here all day posting examples of characters reacting/not reacting to getting hit by normally painful shit.


Well, I don't really see how other characters endurance to pain can apply to danzo if we saw even how he react with a real amaterasu.


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## Drake (Jul 24, 2016)

@Bad Wolf you are probably the worst "debater" on this site. Your argument now consists of insulting me (calling me stupid), lying about things I said (claiming that I said Kamui is a black hole), and ignoring my arguments (you repeatedly saying "LILLE IS INTANGIBLE" while providing *zero* proof that he is not affected by physical forces, while I have provided tons of proof that you just ignore and deflect. You also ignored the link when I proved Danzo was in pain, with your argument essentially being "people in pain can't talk").

Until you mature, I will not be stooping to your childish level again. I accept your concession, and hopefully you will learn from this experience. You need to learn how to admit you are wrong without turning to insults and lies to fuel your failing argument.


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## AzureDaora (Jul 24, 2016)

Uh, yeah, just Ctrl+F'd "gravity", read about the argument about it, and nobody really proved anything about it.
Drake is assuming that gravity affects Lille, stating "evidence" that he didn't fly in this form.
That's not really evidence. It could just be, you know, him not needing to fly.

Lille's power of intangibility, as far as I know, works the same way in every form, unless stated otherwise (by working the same way, I mean the same type of intangibility). If he was able to negate gravity in his second form via intangibility (which is what we assume here), theoretically he would also be able to do it on his first form.
Also, above post is making the same mistakes as you said he commits.

Lastly, I'm really confused on how physics got involved briefly. What

Reactions: Like 1


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## Drake (Jul 24, 2016)

AzureDaora said:


> Uh, yeah, just Ctrl+F'd "gravity", read about the argument about it, and nobody really proved anything about it.
> Drake is assuming that gravity affects Lille, stating "evidence" that he didn't fly in this form.
> That's not really evidence. It could just be, you know, him not needing to fly.



Except I never said that. I said gravity still affected him that first time he became intangible, and that is proved by how he didn't float up into the atmosphere. If gravity didn't affect him, then he would have floated upwards whether he wanted to or not.



> Lille's power of intangibility, as far as I know, works the same way in every form, unless stated otherwise (by working the same way, I mean the same type of intangibility). If he was able to negate gravity in his second form via intangibility (which is what we assume here), theoretically he would also be able to do it on his first form.



He couldn't negate gravity in his second form; he used his wings to fly and stay afloat.


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## AzureDaora (Jul 24, 2016)

You're making an assumption that Lille would just unknowingly float because he was intangible and being unable to control that movement, which he probably can since this is magic and not physics. Unless you're saying people like Saber when using Avalon would unknowingly float in midair, either that or she's affected by gravitational attacks (Protip: She's not). 

I don't think the wings are shown to flutter, and if we continue from your chain of logic via physics those wings shouldn't be able to fly because it's not made for flying.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 24, 2016)

Drake said:


> you are probably the worst "debater" on this site.


thanks


Drake said:


> you repeatedly saying "LILLE IS INTANGIBLE" while providing *zero* proof that


I brought many prove, don't lie


Drake said:


> while I have provided tons of proof that you just ignore and deflect.


You just said one thing. Lille don't go at the speed at of light so he must have a mass. And I wrote a reply to that. You ignored it


Drake said:


> You also ignored the link when I proved Danzo was in pain, with your argument essentially being "people in pain can't talk").


The opposite, many scan shows when he's in pain. Your arguments for his pain was... some website about emotion or something?


Drake said:


> Until you mature, I will not be stooping to your childish level again. I accept your concession, and hopefully you will learn from this experience. You need to learn how to admit you are wrong without turning to insults and lies to fuel your failing argument.


Bla bla. So you don't know how to answer? Ok. At least you have finally admitted that you can't prove anything


AzureDaora said:


> Lastly, I'm really confused on how physics got involved briefly. What


drake is very confused about kamui. At first he was even saying that the jutsu it's like a black hole



Drake said:


> Except I never said that. I said gravity still affected him that first time he became intangible, and that is proved by how he didn't float up into the atmosphere. If gravity didn't affect him, then he would have floated upwards whether he wanted to or not.


Ugh. Without gravity you don't float up. If you don't have gravity there isn't even an "up" and down. Like in space, they move only using something else. But really, you don't float up unless something pushed you up


Drake said:


> He couldn't negate gravity in his second form; he used his wings to fly and stay afloat.


He used his wings in a special water created by the reiatsu of some kind of reality warping. before that he was standing still flying and moving without using the wings but... You have always ignored this fact.


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## Drake (Jul 24, 2016)

AzureDaora said:


> You're making an assumption that Lille would just unknowingly float because he was intangible and being unable to control that movement, which he probably can since this is magic and not physics.



And you're making an assumption that Lille could fly in that form, and that he could control gravity in that form. We are both making assumptions, but your assumption is based on nothing while mine is based on physics and what is shown in the manga (i.e. Lille remaining on the ground).



> I don't think the wings are shown to flutter, and if we continue from your chain of logic via physics those wings shouldn't be able to fly because it's not made for flying.



They are shown to flutter, as evidenced when Lille says he flaps his wings to fly later on in the fight.  Not really too sure what your second point is trying to say.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 25, 2016)

Drake said:


> And you're making an assumption that Lille could fly in that form


really? Even low level quincy, arrancarr, shinigami can fly but Lille can't?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 25, 2016)

Lille's wings are literally physically incapable of producing the thrust necessary for flight, this is a dumb argument.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SwordSlayer99 (Jul 25, 2016)

Divell said:


> And The Last Naruto is soo far above Six Path version of his that it isn't funny.



This is false. Naruto during The Last was only using a weakened Biju Sage Mode when he beat Toneri (Weakened because Naruto let Kurama out of the seal to fight Toneri's golem. Biju Sage Mode is inferior to Six Path Sage Mode, thus 4th War SPSM Naruto >>>>> Weakened BSM Naruto. Toneri is at best >>> Juubito, anyone like 8 Gate Gai, Juubi Jin Madara or SPSM Naruto are much stronger.


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## John Wayne (Jul 25, 2016)

What is this even? I'm pretty sure basically everyone with half way decent reishi control can air walk in Bleach.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Drake (Jul 25, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> really? Even low level quincy, arrancarr, shinigami can fly but Lille can't?



Pretty sure they "flew" by using reishi platforms, so they are not negating gravity.



Nighty said:


> Lille's wings are literally physically incapable of producing the thrust necessary for flight, this is a dumb argument.



Where does it say that? It does say in the actual manga, however, that Lille is capable of flapping his wings to fly, so unless you have statement from the manga that contradicts that...


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 25, 2016)

Drake said:


> Where does it say that? It does say in the actual manga, however, that Lille is capable of flapping his wings to fly, so unless you have statement from the manga that contradicts that...



because we as a species are no longer cavemen from 4000 B.C and understand the principles of flight

Lille's wings are not aerodynamic, they're not positioned correctly and they've got humongous holes in them that would prevent Lille from creating downwards air pressure and therefore thrust by flapping them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Drake (Jul 25, 2016)

Nighty said:


> because we as a species are no longer cavemen from 4000 B.C and understand the principles of flight
> 
> Lille's wings are not aerodynamic, they're not positioned correctly and they've got humongous holes in them that would prevent Lille from creating downwards air pressure and therefore thrust by flapping them.



I believe I have said this before, but I will say it again: the principles of physics should always be assumed to be true in manga, unless directly contradicted by manga canon. In this case, there is a direct contradiction.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 25, 2016)

Drake said:


> Pretty sure they "flew" by using reishi platforms, so they are not negating gravity.


they fly in that way but it's the same. They can even go upside down





Drake said:


> Where does it say that? It does say in the actual manga, however, that Lille is capable of flapping his wings to fly, so unless you have statement from the manga that contradicts that...


I think that the meaning is

Look at the wings. How can he fly with such wings? In real physics I really doubt something like that could fly, much less standing still in midair


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## Drake (Jul 25, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> they fly in that way but it's the same. They can even go upside down



I always thought that was part of Shinji's inverted zanpakuto's ability, especially since we have never seen anyone else replicate that feat before (as far as I can recall).


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 25, 2016)

Drake said:


> I always thought that was part of Shinji's inverted zanpakuto's ability, especially since we have never seen anyone else replicate that feat before (as far as I can recall).


That can't be, Shinji's sword is an illusion type and here no one was affected or even seeing him. Doing thing backward or upside down is one of his speciality but that doesn't mean that no one can't do something like that or that he's speacial


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 25, 2016)

Drake said:


> I believe I have said this before, but I will say it again: the principles of physics should always be assumed to be true in manga, unless directly contradicted by manga canon. In this case, there is a direct contradiction.



this is nonsensical

you can't handwave things that don't make physical sense in order to then go on to make a point about how physics apply to Lille, which is literally exactly what you're doing right now.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Divell (Jul 25, 2016)

SwordSlayer99 said:


> This is false. Naruto during The Last was only using a weakened Biju Sage Mode when he beat Toneri (Weakened because Naruto let Kurama out of the seal to fight Toneri's golem. Biju Sage Mode is inferior to Six Path Sage Mode, thus 4th War SPSM Naruto >>>>> Weakened BSM Naruto. Toneri is at best >>> Juubito, anyone like 8 Gate Gai, Juubi Jin Madara or SPSM Naruto are much stronger.


kyuubi and naruto were still connected bro, the last simply used kurama mode + sage but from a full kyuubi. six path only had half kyuubi and small portion of every bijuu. a complete kyuubi > Six Paths. and even if he were weakened feats talk by themself.


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## LazyWaka (Jul 25, 2016)

SwordSlayer99 said:


> This is false. Naruto during The Last was only using a weakened Biju Sage Mode when he beat Toneri (Weakened because Naruto let Kurama out of the seal to fight Toneri's golem. Biju Sage Mode is inferior to Six Path Sage Mode, thus 4th War SPSM Naruto >>>>> Weakened BSM Naruto. Toneri is at best >>> Juubito, anyone like 8 Gate Gai, Juubi Jin Madara or SPSM Naruto are much stronger.



Actually according to the databook that came with the movie Naruto wasn't even using BSM. He was using KSM, which is weaker.

@Divell

SPSM is vastly superior as it's not just utilizing the bijuu's chakra, but Hagoromo's (the guy who shits on the Bijuu) chakra as well. And superior feats? Both have shown to be small planet level.

In fact context is in favor of the Naruto that fought Kaguya was stronger than the one that fought Toneri (at least form wise.) Toneri's power was utilized through Hamura's chakra. who was at best on par with Hagoromo prior to him becoming the Juubi jin. SPSM Naruto's performance against Kaguya, who is much stronger than either of them speaks for itself.


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## Divell (Jul 25, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> Actually according to the databook that came with the movie Naruto wasn't even using BSM. He was using KSM, which is weaker.
> 
> @Divell
> 
> ...


I don't know where you got that, but Databook says he was using Kurama Mode, and nothing about weakened or being weaker than six paths. And sure, SPSM's performance against Kaguya speak for it self, does he has something like this?

Six Path Naruto didn't had anything close to that. A Naruto could have ended the fight against Kaguya by himself if he didn't fucked aroudn. Everybody going Bijuu Mode and end her, but friendship promotion. Is more, Toneri had more control of his chakra and smarter than Kaguya, I can even say he was stronger, and power similar to Hagoromo's brother, but Kurama Sage Mode Naruto performed even better than he did to Kaguya, why would that be? He was even braking Toneri's Truth Seeking Balls

which in the past it took 8 Gate Guy to take them down and neither Sasuke nor Naruto were even close to do something like that. Also Kurama Mode > Bijuu Mode


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## LazyWaka (Jul 25, 2016)

Divell said:


> And sure, SPSM's performance against Kaguya speak for it self, does he has something like this?



Creating a moon without looking the least bit winded sounds like a good start. And before you say anything about Hagoromo doing it, the fucker himself said he had virtually no chakra left meaning Naruto (and sasuke) were the ones who contributed the power to actually do it.



Divell said:


> A Naruto could have ended the fight against Kaguya by himself if he didn't fucked aroudn. Everybody going Bijuu Mode and end her, but friendship promotion.



Newsflash, it was Kaguya who was made to dumb to live in order for them to beat her, not Naruto.



Divell said:


> smarter than Kaguya,* I can even say he was stronger*, and power similar to Hagoromo's brother,



The fuck? Kaguya was THE strongest character in the series. Kaguya is STRONGER than Hagoromo and Hamura by the formers own admission.

Toneri stronger than Kaguya? That's laughable. Toneri's best feat was moving the moon, Kaguya could create/destroy entire planets.



Divell said:


> but Kurama Sage Mode Naruto performed even better than he did to Kaguya, why would that be?



Because Kaguya >>> than Toneri?



Divell said:


> He was even braking Toneri's Truth Seeking Balls
> 
> which in the past it took 8 Gate Guy to take them down and neither Sasuke nor Naruto were even close to do something like that. Also Kurama Mode > Bijuu Mode



Notice how a barrage of rasengans didn't do shit to the TSB barrier yet the one on the inside did? Kinda implies that they are weaker on the inside.

Kurama mode? What is that? Naruto only has 3 forms (with the sage mode powerups.) Kyuubi chakra mode, Bijuu mode, and Rikudou sage mode (six path sage mode). If you're referring to the kyuubi avatar then that's not a different form It's classified as Bijuu mode as well. That's like saying that Susano'o is a different form for Sasuke.


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## LazyWaka (Jul 25, 2016)

Probably gonna lock this soon since the discussions are hardly even about Shunsui vs Kakashi anymore. 

Any objections nighty?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 25, 2016)

No 

I think this has run its course


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