# Amaterasu vs high tier



## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2016)

So this jutsu has gotten alot of overhype and underrating on this forum. Going through quite a few threads this is the jutsu with the most extremes on each end. On one end its GG amaterasu on the other we got log kawarimi is more than enough to evade it based on its track record. 

However here is a list of people who i believe will deal with this jutsu, based on the methods kishi has shown amaterasu being handled.
*
Advanced replacement techniques(body shedding), like Bee or orochimaru

Muu: *- his fission technique would be a perfect means of avoiding amaterasu. if hit square he can simply break in 2 like he did on panel, the body in front takes the hit while providing cover for the second body. Since he was quick enough to avoid some rasengan damage without naruto even noticing it 

*deidara: - *His clay technique seems a bit different from regular log replacement, its also the only substitution that was done while the user was straight up lying down
*
Gaara: *sand armour, is basically skin shedding, he can rid of the fire on him 

*hashirama: *skin discarding like the juubi did. i mean afterall, mokuton clones grow out from the user

*Expulsion techniques like nagato shira tensei

Gengetsu: *Using jouki boy causes gengetsu to explode which is how he got out of the sand to begin with. However i think this method only works if gengetsu hasnt yet used JB

*Neji/hiashi : *i dont believe their full body blow is going to be much weaker than the piss weak S/T nagato used to get amaterasu off him. I mean it was quite a weak one, it didnt even slightly crack the ground. while i get it can be directed, it barely had any force behind it

*Space time ninjutsu
*
hirashin and kamui users basically

*Chakra cloak users
*
All cloak users who have control of their bijuu, should easily deal with this as shown. Yagura, naruto, bee

*Speed*

Anyone who has a speed based ability that allows them to escape the amaterasu user LoS. Gai, A, BM naruto, etc

*absorbption* *like preta path
*
Hashirama, kisame


If you notice while there are several methods all these methods are more or less advanced and require a certain skill set. So it really depends on who the MS user is fighting..so while its not trolled by anyone like some would like to believe, its hardly something that most high tier would struggle with

discuss!!

Reactions: Agree 3


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## ATastyMuffin (Aug 31, 2016)

You forgot SM users like Naruto who can pre-empt the technique and block with a clone or some other object.


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## t0xeus (Aug 31, 2016)

Agree with your post entirely.

Imo Amaterasu is very OP technique which is why Kishimoto used bullshit counters every time it was used, from Sasuke outrunning Itachi's amaterasu for several panels to Madara being able to absorb it without eyes in his sockets etc.
That in my opinion shows it strengths rather than weaknesses when even the author knows he overdid it with this jutsu and needs to find counters like that so it's not gg.

But yeah, the counters you've said are something that would work for sure. I am glad you didn't include Tsunade getting rid of it by getting absorbed by Katsuyu or something some users think.


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> You forgot SM users like Naruto who can pre-empt the technique and block with a clone or some other object.



we delving into the possibles, i want to discuss the sure things. preempting would then lead into discussions of if naruto has the hand speed to cast the sign for a clone in time. Which results in pointless arguments

the examples i showed arent as reliant on such and would work because the mechanics of the jutsu used in question work and dont require such timing 

whether gaara reacts or not, he gets rid of the amaterasu by shedding his sand shell. thats a sure thing


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Agree with your post entirely.
> 
> Imo Amaterasu is very OP technique which is why Kishimoto used bullshit counters every time it was used, from Sasuke outrunning Itachi's amaterasu for several panels to Madara being able to absorb it without eyes in his sockets etc.
> That in my opinion shows it strengths rather than weaknesses when even the author knows he overdid it with this jutsu and needs to find counters like that so it's not gg.
> ...



those are the possibles, and havent been shown to work. the examples above are basic direct applications of all the counters kishi already showed. We have seen skin shedding work, so all skin shedding variations should work and so on

@ATastyMuffin 

i think onoki is more likely to use rock golem to block LoS than naruto is. since rock golem just requires him to open his mouth and akatuchi could use it and point blank to block a C1. while i get sensing gives forewarning its the hand movement and so on, which i think ends up slowing the process down. both are just there and dont compare to the examples in the OP


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## t0xeus (Aug 31, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> those are the possibles, and havent been shown to work. the examples above are basic direct applications of all the counters kishi already showed. We have seen skin shedding work, so all skin shedding variations should work and so on


I was just talking about how is amaterasu perceived here by users and why it's wrong.

Anyways raiton cloak should also work here, so should chakra absorption technique like Daikodan.


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> I was just talking about how is amaterasu perceived here by users and why it's wrong.
> 
> Anyways raiton cloak should also work here, so should chakra absorption technique like Daikodan.



we saw raiton cloak fail though. like on panel, 

daikodan should work.


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## t0xeus (Aug 31, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> we saw raiton cloak fail though. like on panel,
> 
> daikodan should work.


Ay touched Sasuke with his body as well, different thing if someone used Amaterasu on long range, no?


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 31, 2016)

People tend to underrate Amaterasu more so today than ever before. Granted most high tier kage have some type of way of dealing with Amaterasu(not enton).

FTG - Godly technique - Hiraishin bros troll it

Sensing - not your everyday run of the mill sensors - were talking high end such as minato, tobirama, muu, naruto, kabuto
and etc

Reflexes - Once again higher end/god tier reflexes - Minato, Tobirama, Ei, Kabuto and etc

Chakra cloak users - all (mid-high) kage level shinobi

Hashirama can just push it away I would assume??

Kabuto - Liquefy, oral rebirth, or simply just dodge

Then we have your normal kage level shinobi who have a unique skillset of dealing with it

Orochimaru - oral rebirth
Gaara - Walks around with Sand Armor

Basically were looking at shinobi who excel at certain area, have a godly technique, or a unique ability

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> A
> 
> Ay touched Sasuke with his body as well, different thing if someone used Amaterasu on long range, no?



i dont see how, amaterasu is simply an enton creation jutsu. enton touched shroud and the shroud couldnt stop it. so amaterasu directly used on raiton shroud from a distance will mean the user dies or cuts a limb off


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> People tend to underrate Amaterasu more so today than ever before. Granted most high tier kage have some type of way of dealing with Amaterasu(not enton).
> 
> FTG - Godly technique - Hiraishin bros troll it
> 
> ...



of course hashirama can, he got moukton. he simply does what juubi did, push it off himself and discard that part of him

but is it really unique when we got like 6 different shown ways of dealing with amaterasu. and in those categories there is more than one user of said specific type of amaterasu troll technique

class 1- absorb 

class 2- advanced replacement or skin shedding

class 3- chakra cloak 

class 4- repulsion tech

class 5- speed ,

class 6- S/T

when you got 6 different ways it really stops being unique


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 31, 2016)

Just thinking about Gaara for a sec...

Just imagine Gaara casually trolling amaterasu. Now its on his sand... he thus can shoot / have tsunami levels of sand covered in amaterasu....hell Sand shower/drizzle for the lolz

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2016)

tbh this thread has made me realize why enton control was required. enton by itself is rather average, think both the control and creation should have been from 1 eye.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 31, 2016)

It would cause instant loss of consciousness on half the people you mentioned should the bolt hit them directly in the face, which is just as likely as hitting them anywhere else on the body considering it's speed and mini van scale.

Karin lost consciousness instantly when it merely hit her back. She has elite regeneration and pain tolerance.

Neji, Hiashi & Gengetsu all lose consciousness the moment it hits their head and begins cooking their brains with their head as the pot.

Grace under this level of pressure is impossible for glass cannons. Few would act rationally or maintain consciousness let alone the concentration to perform techniques when their head is lit with a flame hyped to be hotter than the sun.

Also, someone mentioned Kabuto countering via liquid technique... how does turning into water help him survive Amaterasu? Liquids turn into gas faster than solids. He can't counter Amaterasu when it's used on MS Sasuke's scale, which looked like a bolt the size of a large building when it crashed into Gyuki. Oral Rebirth right back into the bonfire of flames, assuming he can maintain the concentration to perform the advanced technique.

The same thing applies for Gaara, shedding the sand only to be torched by the flames still surrounding him. Though to be fairly honest he was knocked unconscious by Madara kicking Minato into him, so I'm not so sure the sand armor lasts long enough to even be shed.

Deidara couldn't substitute to avoid stringed shuriken or Sasuke's fist, I find it difficult to see him substituting to avoid a technique that supposedly instantly lights onto anything the user is looking at.

Hashirama, Mu, V1-V2-KCM-BM Naruto, V1-V2-BM Bee, Yugito, Yagura, Minato, Tobirama, Obito, Kakashi, Gai, Nagato, Deva Path, Preta Path, SM Jiraiya, Gold/Silver Brothers, Rinnegan Madara, Kisame, Danzo, elite shunshin speedsters are all shinobi capable of countering Amaterasu in one way or another, some of them depending upon whether or not they know it's coming beforehand (Sensor Mu to split, Sensor Jiraiya to use SCOR to block or purposely hit his hair to then use lions mane to extend off, Kisame to possibly absorb the bolt around him whether hit or not)

But that varies depending on how large the bolt is, the largest being MS Sasuke's used against Gyuki which was massive.

A lot of variables, but there are certainly a number of shinobi who can
1. Get the jump on it before it's already burning them (sensors, high reflex guys once they see bleeding eye)
2. Counter it even if it has begun burning them

More people counter when the bolt is human or sub human sized, not the size of a large building (MS Sasuke vs. Gyuki) or a mini van (Itachi vs. Cerberus)

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 2


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> It would cause instant loss of consciousness on half the people you mentioned should the bolt hit them directly in the face, which is just as likely as hitting them anywhere else on the body considering it's speed and mini van scale.
> 
> Karin lost consciousness instantly when it merely hit her back. She has elite regeneration and pain tolerance.
> 
> ...



A didn't loose conciouness , bee didn't loose conciouness , sasuke didn't loose conciouness . Not sure what you on about

Both bee and sasuke could easily use replacement technique and had the thought process and calm to do so 

Unlikely Amaterasu ever hits anyone in the face . Fodder samurai saw it coming and put his hands up . No chance in hell
It hits any named shinobi in the face 

Since when was karin an elite in pain tolerance ? Danzo kick took her out . Or do we ignore the feats we don't like ? 

No one hit by the technique was so incapacitated they couldn't use Jutsu to get rid of it

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## hbcaptain (Sep 1, 2016)

*Amaterasu alone :*

The Kage level without a visible counter to Amaterasu :

*With and without knowledge :*

*Spoiler*: __ 



-Rasa (even if he can cover all of his body with gold sand, gold will be melted under high temperature, bad match up)
-Konan (even while in papaer logia mode, she will be reduced to ashes)
-Shin Uchiha (not fast enough)
-The last Sakura (not fast enough, Byakugou won't aid her)
-Chiyo (not fast enough)
-Deidara (not fast enough, his clay can't deal with it)
-Old Hiruzen (not fast enough)
-Kakuzu (not fast enough, he will be burnt t death him and his masks)
-Sasori (not fast enough, his heart will be burnt to death)
-Jiraya (not fast enough)
-AAA (not fast enough, you should be at V2 Ei level if you want to troll it with raw speed)
-Hanzo (not fast enough)




*Without knowledge :*

*Spoiler*: __ 



-Mei
-Rasa (sand not fast enough)
-Konan
-Shin Uchiha
-The last Sakura
-Rasa
-Chiyo
-Deidara
-Old Hiruzen
-Kakuzu 
-Tsunade 
-Sasori
-Jiraya
-Gai (he never uses gates from the beginning)
-AAA (not fast enough)
-Hanzo




*Note *: Clones feints, smoke bombs, etc, aren't taken into account because all of Kage level fighters can use them in battle to counter Amaterasu with prior knowledge.

Those who can counter Amaterasu :

*With and without Knowledge :*

*Spoiler*: __ 



*-*Start of P2 Kakashi and above (Kamui but he will lose a lot of chakra, if it's P2 Kakashi then it's enough to create a heavy opening for the ennemy).
-Hebi Sasuke (Kawarimi)
-Gaara (sand armor is a hard counter besides, sand > fire).
-Danzo (Izanagi)
-Sage Naruto (sensor abilites will alarm him and he will use a counter such as KB or smoke bombs to deal with it)
-Orochimaru (Kawarimi)
-Kisame (Samehada hates fire, but Kisamehada can absorb the flames, he can also use Suiton on himself to absorb charka)
-Onoki (I think Kajugan can deal with it).
-MS Obito (Kamui, he can teleport the parts burnt to Kamuiland as stated in DB3, he also got Izanagi).
-Pain (BT, Gakidou, ST).
-Gengetsu (if he summon the giant clam from the beginning).
-Muu (Kajugan+fission techniques+very high sensor abilities enough to prevent Amaterasu and use a counter in time).
-KCM Naruto (can remove it with chakra cloak).
-Minato (FTG, even if he got touched he can teleport it in time, besides I think his speed coupled to FTG is enough to avoid beeing touched).
-Tobirama (same as above).

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## hbcaptain (Sep 1, 2016)

*Amaterasu&Enton :*
If we add Enton, then a lot of things might change since Sasuke gain a lot of killing power by transforming Amaterasu into piercing weapon.

The Kage level without a visible counter to Amaterasu&Enton :

*With and without knowledge :*

*Spoiler*: __ 



-Rasa (even if he can cover all of his body with gold sand, gold will be melted under high temperature, bad match up)
-Part2 Kakashi (Kakashi won't react before beeing sliced to death)
-Gaara (Gaara only reacted to Enton as a throwing weapon if Sasuke used Amaterasu directly appearing on him and he instantly added pieceing Enton, sand armor isn't enough to handle the shock).
-Konan (even while in papaer logia mode, she will be reduced to ashes)
-Shin Uchiha (not fast enough)
-The last Sakura (not fast enough, Byakugou won't aid her)
-Chiyo (not fast enough)
-Deidara (not fast enough, his clay can't deal with it)
-Old Hiruzen (not fast enough)
-Kakuzu (not fast enough, he will be burnt t death him and his masks)
-Sasori (not fast enough, his heart will be burnt to death)
-Jiraya (not fast enough)
-AAA (not fast enough, you should be at V2 Ei level if you want to troll it with raw speed)
-Hanzo (not fast enough)
-KCM Naruto (His cloak will be pierced aparat before he can remove the flames)




*Without knowledge Only :*

*Spoiler*: __ 



-Mei (with knowledge Kirigakure no Jutsu is a good counter)
-Kisame (he only uses the fusion+water dome as a final card, yet Samehada can't absorb fire, and Amaterasu truned into piercing weapon will definitly kill him).
-Gai (he never uses gates from the beginning)
-Some paths of Pain (Amaterasu transformed to pieceing weapon can troll all the avatars besides Tend and Gakidou even with the presence of those two, that' why Pain should have a very hard time against MS Sasuke).




*Note *: Clones feints, smoke bombs, etc, aren't taken into account because all of Kage level fighters can use them in battle to counter Amaterasu with prior knowledge.

Thos who can counter Amaterasu&Enton :

*With and without Knowledge :*

*Spoiler*: __ 




-Hebi Sasuke (Kawarimi)
-Gaara (sand armor is a hard counter besides, sand > fire).
-Danzo (Izanagi)
-Sage Naruto (sensor abilites will alarm him and he will use a counter such as KB or smoke bombs to deal with it)
-Orochimaru (Kawarimi)
-Kisame (Samehada hates fire, but Kisamehada can absorb the flames, he can also use Suiton on himself to absorb charka)
-Onoki (I think Kajugan can deal with it).
-MS Obito (Kamui, he can teleport the parts burnt to Kamuiland as stated in DB3, he also got Izanagi).
-Pain (BT, Gakidou, ST).
-Gengetsu (if he summon the giant clam from the beginning).
-Muu (Kajugan+fission techniques+very high sensor abilities enough to prevent Amaterasu and use a counter in time).
-KCM Naruto (can remove it with chakra cloak).
-Minato (FTG, even if he got touched he can teleport it in time, besides I think his speed coupled to FTG is enough to avoid beeing touched).
-Tobirama (same as above).


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## Mercurial (Sep 1, 2016)

Amaterasu is maybe the weakest Mangekyo jutsu, it is still a very powerful technique but not so much compared to other really powerful techniques, as so many characters have a chance or even a certain way to avoid/counter it. Keep on mind that Amaterasu doesn't appear right on the target but rather the black flames spread from the user's eye towards the objective, that's clearly underlined by Amaterasu's flames used by Sasuke against Ei: Sasuke used Amaterasu right on the Raikage, who moved away with raw speed, and the flames didn't stop in the air right in Ei's previous position (as they should have done if they actually appeared right on the objective, left eye long range Kamui style), but they continued to move until they landed on a samurai who was just right behind Ei's previous position: showing, without any possible rebuttal, that the flames move at (relatively) high speed towards the objective, rather than appearing on it.

Now let's see how any character could counter Amaterasu, and I will list only character who could counter Amaterasu 100 times on 100, not even character who could have a chance to do so. And I'm counting any character without any previous knowledge on Amaterasu and the opponent being able to use Amaterasu.

People that can counter Amaterasu used by God Tier Rinnegan Sasuke:

- Kaguya (Easily reacts and then absorbs it as per canon, or warps herself out of the way with her S/T jutsu Yomotsu Hirasaka; not to mention that she could always regen)
- Rikudo Sennin (Well everyone and their mother could counter or dodge Amaterasu and freaking Rikudo Sennin shouldn't be able!?)
- DMS Rikudo Kakashi (Easily reacts and then blocks it by activating Susanoo, or uses long range Kamui to warp away the incoming flames, or warps himself out of the way with Kamui, or phases through the flames with Kamui; not to mention that he could dodge the flames even with raw physical speed)
- Juubi jinchuuriki Madara (Easily reacts and then absorbs Amaterasu with Preta Path or blocks the incoming flames with a Gudodama shield or repels them with a Gudodama staff; not to mention that he could always regen)
-Rikudo Senjutsu/The Last/Adult Naruto (Easily reacts and blocks Amaterasu by protecting himself with a chakra shroud as per canon, or parries/blocks LoS with Tajuu Kage Bunshin while moving at the same time before the flames can approach him, or dodges the flames with raw physical speed)
- Rinnegan/The Last/Adult Sasuke (Yes let's assume that God Tier Sasuke is facing a completely mirroring God Tier Sasuke: Sasuke can easily avoid the other Sasuke's Amaterasu by easily reacting and then using Amenotejikara to warp himself out of the way, or blocking the incoming flames by activating Susanoo, or simply absorbing them with Preta Path, or dodging them with raw physical speed)
- 8th Gate Gai (Easily reacts and dodges with raw physical speed or smashes the incoming flames away with a Sekizo air cannon)
- Momoshiki (Easily reacts and absorbs the flames with his Rinnegan)
- Toneri (Easily reacts and blocks the incoming flames with a Gudodama shield)
- Juubi jinchuuriki Obito (Easily reacts and then blocks the incoming flames with a Gudodama shield or repels them with a Gudodama staff; not to mention that he could always regen)

People that can counter Amaterasu used by EMS Sasuke:

- All the aforementioned characters (Easily react and dodge with raw physical speed or S/T, block with various techniques etc)
- SM One Eyed Rinnegan Madara (Easily reacts and absorbs with Preta Path, or dodges with raw physical speed, or blocks it by activating Susanoo in front of the incoming flames or parries/blocks LoS with Mokuton while moving at the same time before the flames can approach him; not to mention that he could always regen)
- Hashirama (Easily reacts and parries/blocks LoS with Mokuton while moving at the same time before the flames can approach him, or lets himself tagged and then sprouts the tagged part by making Mokuton sprout from his body and regens himself)
- Edo Madara (Easily reacts and absorbs with Preta Path, or blocks it by activating Susanoo in front of the incoming flames, or parries/blocks LoS with Mokuton while moving at the same time before the flames can approach him, or lets himself tagged and then sprouts the tagged part by making Mokuton sprout from his body and regens himself)
- EMS Madara (Easily reacts blocks it by activating Susanoo in front of the incoming flames)
- Edo Minato (Easily reacts and blocks Amaterasu by protecting himself with a chakra shroud, or dodges with Hiraishin by extending a chakra arm further to put a Hiraishin mark where he can teleport if he doesn't have an already prepped one)
- KCM/BM/BSM Naruto (Easily reacts and blocks Amaterasu by protecting himself with a chakra shroud, or parries/blocks LoS with Tajuu Kage Bunshin while moving at the same time before the flames can approach him, or with BM and BSM dodges with raw physical speed)
- MS + 3TS/MS + Rinnegan Obito (Easily reacts and warps himself out of the way with Kamui, or phases through the flames with Kamui, or parries/blocks LoS with Mokuton while moving at the same time before the flames can approach him, or lets himself tagged and then sprouts the tagged part by making Mokuton sprout from his body and regens himself; MS + Rinnegan version could parry the incoming flames with chakra rods as per canon, as they were tough enough to parry a Enton powered Susanoo arrow)
- War Arc MS Kakashi (Easily reacts and uses long range Kamui to warp away the incoming flames, or warps himself out of the way with Kamui)
- Gai up to 7th Gate (Easily reacts and dodges with raw physical speed or smashes the incoming flames away with a Hiru Tora)
- EMS Sasuke (Yes let's assume that EMS Sasuke is facing a completely mirroring EMS Sasuke: Sasuke can easily avoid the other Sasuke's Amaterasu by easily reacting blocking the incoming flames by activating Susanoo)
- Nagato (Easily reacts and absorbs it with Preta Path or repels it with Shinra Tensei)
- Alive Minato (Easily reacts and dodges with Hiraishin by quickly moving away a Hiraishin kunai if he doesn't have an already prepped one positioned around)
- Tobirama (Easily reacts and dodges with Hiraishin by quickly moving away a Hiraishin kunai if he doesn't have an already prepped one positioned around)
- SM Kabuto (Easily reacts and gets ready to avoid with Hebi no Kawarimi, that lets him easily survive even if he is tagged; he could also clap his hands and summon an Edo Tensei coffin as a shield to not have the flames reach him)
- Itachi (Reacts and blocks the incoming flames by activating Susanoo)
- Deva Path (Reacts and repels it with Shinra Tensei)
- Killer B (Reacts and activates V1/V2 chakra shroud to protect himself)
- Mu (Gets hit and then saves himself with his special body doubling technique)
- Part 2/War Arc Gaara (Gets hit and then saves himself thanks to his Suna no Yoroi acting like a skin shedding and replacement technique)
- Orochimaru (Gets hit and then saves himself by replacing his body with Hebi no Kawarimi)

People that can counter Amaterasu used by Itachi or MS Sasuke:

- All the aforementioned characters (Easily react and dodge with raw physical speed or S/T, block with various techniques etc)
- Some aforementioned characters with even greater ease: Hashirama, Edo/EMS Madara, KCM Naruto now can dodge even with raw physical speed; War Arc Kakashi can now outrun with raw physical speed until he makes in time to parry the flames and block LoS with a quick Doton wall/by raising debris while he goes underground, before being reached; SM Kabuto can now outrun with raw physical speed until he makes in time to parry the flames and block LoS with a quick Doton wall by using Jirobo's ability while he goes underground, before being reached; Killer B can now also use his Kawarimi while in Hachibi Full Form even if he is hit; Deva Path can now parry the incoming flames with chakra rods)
- Part 2 Kakashi (Easily reacts and makes in time to use long range Kamui to warp away the incoming flames, or he outruns the flames with raw physical speed until he makes in time to parry the flames and block LoS with a quick Doton wall/by raising debris while he goes underground, before being reached)
- SM Naruto (Easily reacts and parries/blocks LoS with Tajuu Kage Bunshin while moving at the same time before the flames can approach him, or outruns with raw physical speed until he makes in time to block los with a smoke bomb or by raising debris with a Rasengan on the ground, before being reached and then moves away)
- MS Sasuke (Yes let's assume that MS Sasuke is facing a completely mirroring MS Sasuke: Sasuke can easily avoid the other Sasuke's Amaterasu by easily reacting blocking the incoming flames by activating Susanoo)
- Itachi (Yes let's assume that Itachi is facing a completely mirroring Itachi: Itachi can easily avoid the other Itachi's Amaterasu by easily reacting blocking the incoming flames by activating Susanoo)
- KN1/KN2/KN3/KN4/KN6 Naruto (Reacts and activates V1/V2 chakra shroud to protect himself)
- Ei (Easily reacts and dodges with raw physical speed with V2 as per canon, if he is in V1 he outruns the flames and before being reached activates V2 and completely dodges them)
- Hebi Sasuke (As per canon)
- Hiashi (Gets hit and then saves himself by immediately using Juukenpo Ichigekishin to repel the flames from the body)
- Part 2/War Arc Neji (Gets hit and then saves himself by immediately using Juukenpo Ichigekishin to repel the flames from the body)
- Preta Path (Gets hit and then saves himself by immediately using his chakra absorbing power to absorb the flames)

Amaterasu can be dodged (with S/T or sheer speed), countered, stopped, tricked, and can be trolled even if it manages to hit...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 1, 2016)

*I think there are 4 main categories that can deal with Amaterasu.

Oral rebirth and jutsu of similar nature. - Orochimaru/Hebi Sasuke/Kabuto/B
V2 A level reaction speed + body speed* -  BM Naruto, arguably Minato and Tobirama with Hiraishin
*Partial Bijuu cloak(although I'd say you need top tier reactions)* - Naruto, maybe B
*Jutsu Absorbtion/Negation*  - Nagato/Pain(although it makes me wonder why Nagato didn't absorb it instead of using ST)

Lots of high tier shinobi has a way to deal with Amaterasu. Although we should take the circumstances into account as well. For example, A wouldn't be able to pull off what he did without knowledge. Minato or Tobirama wouldn't be able to avoid it if they were to get hit in the heat of the battle, or if they lacked knowledge, and so on.

So I don't think it is so easy to brush it off against certain characters. Whats equally important in some cases are the circumstances which the technique is executed under.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> *I think there are 4 main categories that can deal with Amaterasu.
> 
> Oral rebirth and jutsu of similar nature. - Orochimaru/Hebi Sasuke/Kabuto/B
> V2 A level reaction speed + body speed* -  BM Naruto, arguably Minato and Tobirama with Hiraishin
> ...



Even if minato or tobirama are hit square why can't they hirashin and leave the flames ?

Very sure that's possible seeing minato can choose what to teleport and what to leave behind. I mean he was being drawn in by kamui and jumped without taking obito with him for example who so happened to be holding him

Also explain why gengetsu using JB which could explode a mountain of sand off him wouldn't work 

Same for Muu splitting point blank in front of KCm naruto a sensor so quick naruto couldn't see it

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Even if minato or tobirama are hit square why can't they hirashin and leave the flames ?
> Very sure that's possible seeing minato can choose what to teleport and what to leave behind. I mean he was being drawn in by kamui and jumped without taking obito with him for example who so happened to be holding him



Because they don't have the capability of seperating the flames off their skin. 
He left Obito behind because they weren't fused together. 

We know for a fact that Obito stuck a TSB in Minato's shoulder and it came with him. So they need to be able to consciously make the decision to leave or take whatever it is with them. Since unfusing his flesh and the flames is not a conscious decision on his part, it is a chemical reaction, he can't make it happen.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because they don't have the capability of seperating the flames off their skin.
> He left Obito behind because they weren't fused together.
> 
> We know for a fact that Obito stuck a TSB in Minato's shoulder and it came with him. So they need to be able to consciously make the decision to leave or take whatever it is with them. Since unfusing his flesh and the flames is not a conscious decision on his part, it is a chemical reaction, he can't make it happen.



When have the flames been fused to a person. If it was fused how on earth did oral rebirth and bee replacement work ? There isn't any fusion going on there . I mean samurai armour was taken off and he was fine . Flames didn't fuse there

Where was the chemical reaction when sasuke trolled it , bee trolled it and when amour was enough to stop it
One would think before it burns his clothes he could easily leave it behind

As to TSB it would be because that happened quicker than he could react . Not because he couldn't leave it behind if he knew it was there . He had no idea it was there to begin with . He would know fire is on him , if it hits him

Esp fire that doesn't eat through Karin cloak , or fodder armour

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 1, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> People tend to underrate Amaterasu more so today than ever before.
> 
> Reflexes - Once again higher end/god tier reflexes - Kabuto
> 
> Kabuto - simply just dodge




When has kabuto ever displayed the speed or reflexes to dodge amaterasu.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 1, 2016)

I think Amaterasu is a technique that only works as well as Kishimoto wants it to. When Itachi uses it, Hebi Sasuke temporarily outruns it. When MS Sasuke uses it, it seems to just automatically appear on whatever its used on, except against Ei, who dodges it. But then Enton flames move like Itachi's Amaterasu did - Gaara blocked them with his sand.

So it probably just depends on how well Kishimoto thinks Sasuke/Itachi should do against their opponents. I think MS Sasuke or Sick Itachi would have difficulty taking down most Mid-High Kage levels with Amaterasu. 

For example, you might find that if MS Sasuke or Sick Itachi fought War Arc Sakura, they might only hit part of her body with Amaterasu/Enton, and she rips off whatever part of her clothing was afflicted before she is consumed in flames (like she did with Kaguya's acid). Or you could find the likes of Onoki using a Doton Bunshin just in time to escape damage, or maybe even the likes of Chiyo could put up a chakra shield before she's hit.

Most Kage levels have some sort of counter against the flames, and their effectiveness in using said counter is generally just down to plot and how well Kishimoto gauges that the opponent stacks up against Sasuke/Itachi generally.

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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> When has kabuto ever displayed the speed or reflexes to dodge amaterasu.



He has displayed enough to get out of sasuke LoS which is all he needs to do to dodge the technique


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I think Amaterasu is a technique that only works as well as Kishimoto wants it to. When Itachi uses it, Hebi Sasuke temporarily outruns it. When MS Sasuke uses it, it seems to just automatically appear on whatever its used on, except against Ei, who dodges it. But then Enton flames move like Itachi's Amaterasu did - Gaara blocked them with his sand.
> 
> So it probably just depends on how well Kishimoto thinks Sasuke/Itachi should do against their opponents. I think MS Sasuke or Sick Itachi would have difficulty taking down most Mid-High Kage levels with Amaterasu.
> 
> ...



I don't think this actually accurate 
While Amaterasu lethality is entirely plot based 

One must realise though there are many counters to the Jutsu 

those counters are all horribly more advanced that ripping clothing off or putting up a puppet chakra shield 

Think it's false to suggest s chakra shield with any sort of plot could work 

Now if you look at the methods suggested in the OP they are at a Much higher level than what you suggest

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> When have the flames been fused to a person.


Put yourself on fire and see how the whole process happens.



> If it was fused how on earth did oral rebirth and bee replacement work ?


 Oral rebirth is a kawarimi, we clearly saw Sasuke's body get erased by Amaterasu. Just like we saw Kakashi's face get destroyed by Sasuke's projectiles : Link removed
Medium is different, but the mechanics are the same.



> I mean samurai armour was taken off and he was fine . Flames didn't fuse there


Because they removed the armor before it could reach to his skin. If samurai's flesh was on fire, removing the armor wouldn't help now would it ? 



> Where was the chemical reaction when sasuke trolled it , bee trolled it and when amour was enough to stop it
> One would think before it burns his clothes he could easily leave it behind


I don't see your point. This is not a chemistry class. You can google all this information if you haven't learned about it in school or through observation.

I agree with the clothes, if Minato can react fast enough he could probably leave his clothes behind(assuming it doesn't contact with his flesh like his hands, face, hair etc). 
But he isn't leaving his flesh or skin behind thats attrocious.



> As to TSB it would be because that happened quicker than he could react


It happened because he wasn't aware of its presence.



> . Not because he couldn't leave it behind if he knew it was there . He had no idea it was there to begin with . He would know fire is on him , if it hits him


I used that example to show that Minato needs to consciously decide what he wants to leave behind. Anything in contact with him comes with him.
Once the flames start burning through his flesh, it isn't within his power to seperate the flames off his body because at that point the flames become a part of him. 



> Esp fire that doesn't eat through Karin cloak , or fodder armour



Or the fire that ate through FRS tanking cerebrus within seconds. Or Jiraiya's flame resistant toad stomach, Sasuke's CS2 wing, or a whole fucking Bijuu.

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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Put yourself on fire and see how the whole process happens.
> 
> Oral rebirth is a kawarimi, we clearly saw Sasuke's body get erased by Amaterasu. Just like we saw Kakashi's face get destroyed by Sasuke's projectiles : Link removed
> Medium is different, but the mechanics are the same.
> ...



Amaterasu isn't real fire nor am I a ninja . So let's stop sounding Silly 

Yes it's an advanced substitution which requires replacing urself with an object in this advanced case removing your skin . But it's still your skin 

So again where was the chemical reaction preventing that from happening 

Point is the fire was so slow at burning the samurai had time to be saved by kankuro chakra threads 

Why should we assume it eats through minato clothes instantly 

I mean why didn't he carry the Enton FRs when it struck him?

He had no issues taking his clothes with him. If minato can react quickly enough 

He reacted to someone who side stepped Amaterasu 

Which like you have said takes a second to actually burn or are you recanting that ? 

That's more than enough time to use an instant technique like hirashin 

There are more feats of Ama failing to burn through something quickly than there are of it immediately eating through things 

Can't pick and choose Gotta take an average 

If Real Madrid beat barca 4 successive times then loose the next 5

On the 10th match the probability of real loosing is higher 

Cuz on average they have lost more than won

I don't see why the Same won't apply for Amaterasu

It burned slow enough for sasuke to use chidori and come out from his own stomach 

Not sure how this ama that you claim hit base naruto but he could use Kn1 cloak to move it before it took effect or how A could move before it Started to burn is faster than minato using hirashin 

You tell me

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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I don't think this actually accurate
> While Amaterasu lethality is entirely plot based
> 
> One must realise though there are many counters to the Jutsu
> ...



Chiyo's puppet shield is a fairly advanced technique, B-Rank in nature. The likes of Bunshins, Body Blow or Sand Armour aren't at a higher level.

Sakura ripping off her clothes to avoid Amaterasu is feasible if Itachi or Sasuke only hit her arm/leg with the technique, and thats entirely at Kishimoto's discretion given its track record.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Chiyo's puppet shield is a fairly advanced technique, B-Rank in nature. The likes of Bunshins, Body Blow or Sand Armour aren't at a higher level.
> 
> Sakura ripping off her clothes to avoid Amaterasu is feasible if Itachi or Sasuke only hit her arm/leg with the technique, and thats entirely at Kishimoto's discretion given its track record.



Sand armour and body blow aren't ranked . However I don't see how puppet shield is at a higher level than a jukken technique tbh

And by higher level I mean in terms of complexity or what's required to pull it off 

The manga is at his discretion 

But saying cloth ripping is a possibility because of all the other more complex means can't be accurate 

Like at all . She could jump away from the acid , she can't jump away from Amaterasu 

Am sure if cloth ripping was a thing sasuke whose wing got hit could have simply chopped it off for example

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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Amaterasu isn't real fire nor am I a ninja . So let's stop sounding Silly


Amaterasu is not real fire, it is a stronger fire but has the same chemical properties. It burns like fire, it spreads like fire.

So no, lets not dodge points and just adress them shall we ?



> Yes it's an advanced substitution which requires replacing urself with an object in this advanced case removing your skin . But it's still your skin



The skin he leaves behind is not himself, just like the log Kakashi left behind is not himself. This is not rocket science my man.



> Point is the fire was so slow at burning the samurai had time to be saved by kankuro chakra threads
> 
> Why should we assume it eats through minato clothes instantly


Because Minato's clothes don't cover his whole body and aren't made out of steel.
Maybe thats why we should assume that it will eat through him faster than it ate through a steel set of armor.



> I mean why didn't he carry the Enton FRs when it struck him?


He teleported the instant enton FRS made contact, before he caught on fire. That is the obvious answer.
And in before you say he can do it to Amaterasu, no he can't, because he saw the enton coming from a mile away and it was a planned encounter.



> He reacted to someone who side stepped Amaterasu


And this proves what exactly ?
A side stepping Amaterasu doesn't mean he is faster than or as fast as Amaterasu. Thats like saying Deidara is faster than Sasuke since he was able to dodge him.

Manga also states that A has faster reactions than Minato. What is your take on that ?



> Which like you have said takes a second to actually burn or are you recanting that ?


I never said that. I said there is a slight delay between the formation of Amaterasu and it actually burning its target.  Slight delay =/= second.


> That's more than enough time to use an instant technique like hirashin


I agree with this. That is why I said Amaterasu can potentially get Minato if it is used in the heat of the battle and he can avoid it if he is in a similar situation to A.



> There are more feats of Ama failing to burn through something quickly than there are of it immediately eating through things


Not really.



> Can't pick and choose Gotta take an average
> 
> If Real Madrid beat barca 4 successive times then loose the next 5
> 
> ...



Thats bullshit logic.
There are high end and low end feats for techniques. You have to take a look at the circumstances and use common sense to find middle ground. That is the most fair assessment you can get.

The fact that you tried to use the lowest of the low end feats to justify your argument(karin's clothes) shows that your words and intentions don't match each other.

I'm down for setting a standart, but obviously using a few outliers that make no sense from a narrative stand point ; in this case a technique of Amaterasu's caliber not being able to even slighly damage Karin, is an obvious fallacy. You can completely discard that instance because it makes no sense.

But Amaterasu eating away a fire resistant flesh within a second  ? Thats clearly not an outlier, that is how Kishimoto introduced the technique.

You have to take consistency into consideration from a narrative stand point while you are assessing high and low end feats. Some high end feats can be more consistent than some low end feats.

So yeah, a little common sense please.



> Not sure how this ama that you claim hit base naruto but he could use Kn1 cloak to move it before it took effect or how A could move before it Started to burn is faster than minato using hirashin
> 
> You tell me



Read above.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 1, 2016)

Why should a Jyuuken techniue be higher ranked than a puppet technique .. simply because its a Jyuuken technique?

And I'd wager that she probably could jump away from Amaterasu if Kishimoto wanted it to be that way. She reacted to Kaguya's chakra arm, and Hebi Sasuke temporarily outran it. Depending on how it gets used, she might do what she did with Kaguya's acid.

@Izegaze

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## Lord Aizen (Sep 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> He has displayed enough to get out of sasuke LoS which is all he needs to do to dodge the technique



dodging an arrow from 100m away and dodging amaterasu are two completely different things. For A to dodge amaterasu not only did he have to go V2 but he needed to use the body flicker technique. kabuto doesnt have near that level of speed or reflexes

If sasuke and itachi wanted to hit kabuto with amaterasu they would've, the guy could just barely dodge a basic sword swipe.


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Amaterasu is not real fire, it is a stronger fire but has the same chemical properties. It burns like fire, it spreads like fire.
> 
> So no, lets not dodge points and just adress them shall we ?
> 
> ...



Ok let's look at ama good feats
Burns sasuke , burns bee , burns toad stomach , burn Cerberus

Bad feats

Fails to burn through fodder samurai , Karin cloak , fails to completely cover and burn nagato , base naruto who could troll it with kn1 cloak

So just as often it's been unimpressive . So you average that out . It's got a 50/50 chance of being useful 
I mean which other one did I forget ?

So basically you would consider A side stepping it not in the heat of battle ? There was a pause and they took a break ? I didn't know

Yes and yet minato has better reaction feats , any thoughts on that? What happened to A super reactions there when he couldn't even see minato toss the Kunai to avoid him

I wonder was that in the heat of battle ? 
What's in the heat of battle please ?

In which situation has Amaterasu been used which would be considered in the heat of battle ?


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## DavyChan (Sep 1, 2016)

You forgot Sakura/Tsunade. They could heal their bodies with regeneration. I'm sure that would work even though Kishi never showed it.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2016)

I mean when has Amaterasu been used in the several uses of it that the enemy did not see the Jutsu coming towards them 

Please dear grimmjowsensei explain this heat of battle 
Where one might almost think you mean Amaterasu could hit minato and he might not see it coming 

Please dear grimmjowsensei san when has Amaterasu surprised the opponent 

Let's go through this 

Fodder samurai saw it coming 
Sasuke saw it coming so much so he was looking back at it while running 
Killer bee saw it coming 
A saw it coming 
Naruto saw it coming 
Nagato basically sensed it and said I see what you did there 
Juubito saw it coming 

So I mean all I need is 1 scan which shows the enemy taken by surprise from Amaterasu in battle . Any scan please and I will concede , 

Also please do clarify if it was in the heat of battle or if they were on a break when it happened


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> dodging an arrow from 100m away and dodging amaterasu are two completely different things. For A to dodge amaterasu not only did he have to go V2 but he needed to use the body flicker technique. kabuto doesnt have near that level of speed or reflexes
> 
> If sasuke and itachi wanted to hit kabuto with amaterasu they would've, the guy could just barely dodge a basic sword swipe.



It's odd you say that , A side steps sasuke Amaterasu not one bit surprised 

His arrow gets side stepped he shits himself . 

Not sure how a fire ball a fodder samurai could see coming and basically every single ninja who has ever faced the technique has seen it coming is supposed to be something Kabuto can't avoid 

Fodder samurai putting his hands up is more than enough indication Kabuto simply side steps it


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Why should a Jyuuken techniue be higher ranked than a puppet technique .. simply because its a Jyuuken technique?
> 
> And I'd wager that she probably could jump away from Amaterasu if Kishimoto wanted it to be that way. She reacted to Kaguya's chakra arm, and Hebi Sasuke temporarily outran it. Depending on how it gets used, she might do what she did with Kaguya's acid.
> 
> @Izegaze



Because it requires release of chakra from every part of the body something only hyuuga and oddly enough A and his dad have shown they can do . It also happens to specifically be a type of chakra that cuts through chakra substances . Something puppet shield simply doesn't do 

Oh yh no doubt kaguya punching Sakura could honestly bat it away . Kishi dropped the ball on that one for the lolz 

Too fast for RSM naruto is suddenly something Sakura can actually move away from . 

So yeah going off that I would say she trolls it . But one feat really can't be the only thing looked at when she couldn't react to sasuke shushin on his intro in part 2 And many other instances were she simply looked shabby


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Because it requires release of chakra from every part of the body something only hyuuga and oddly enough A and his dad have shown they can do . It also happens to specifically be a type of chakra that cuts through chakra substances . Something puppet shield simply doesn't do
> 
> Oh yh no doubt kaguya punching Sakura could honestly bat it away . Kishi dropped the ball on that one for the lolz
> 
> ...



Its a different way of exerting chakra for sure, and probably requires more chakra control. That doesn't make it more advanced or more skilful, just different. Chiyo can exert her raw chakra into a form so strong that it can block pretty much anything - it may not require as much chakra control, but its certainly not a feat that the Hyuuga or the Raikage can replicate.

In fairness, RSM Naruto could and did react to it much, much better than Sakura did - she needed saved after all. But she still reacted to it, which makes her reaction speeds hella fast, and better than many other Kage levels'. Her earlier speed feats should be ignored, because most of them come from the start of shippuden, which was about a year earlier than the Kaguya fight. Reacting to Kaguya and hitting her were her last Part II speed feats. It would be like judging Naruto or Sasuke on their beginning of Part II speed feats.


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Its a different way of exerting chakra for sure, and probably requires more chakra control. That doesn't make it more advanced or more skilful, just different. Chiyo can exert her raw chakra into a form so strong that it can block pretty much anything - it may not require as much chakra control, but its certainly not a feat that the Hyuuga or the Raikage can replicate.
> 
> In fairness, RSM Naruto could and did react to it much, much better than Sakura did - she needed saved after all. But she still reacted to it, which makes her reaction speeds hella fast, and better than many other Kage levels'. Her earlier speed feats should be ignored, because most of them come from the start of shippuden, which was about a year earlier than the Kaguya fight. Reacting to Kaguya and hitting her were her last Part II speed feats. It would be like judging Naruto or Sasuke on their beginning of Part II speed feats.



It wouldn't be the same since we saw naruto and sasuke natural progression and they got various boost 

Sakura got 1 magic boost and went from being unable to avoid Kabuto flying butt to being able to react to something from kaguya .no shown progression there 

Byakuyo don't boost reaction as well 

Now as for the comment on Chiyo chakra shield being able to block iron sand 

Are you saying raikage would be unable to tank it

Or that hyuuga can't block it by expelling chakra . Not sure what you base that on really


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## sanninme rikudo (Sep 1, 2016)

Kamui can't stop Amaterasu.

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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> It wouldn't be the same since we saw naruto and sasuke natural progression and they got various boost
> 
> Sakura got 1 magic boost and went from being unable to avoid Kabuto flying butt to being able to react to something from kaguya .no shown progression there
> 
> ...



Raikage tanking it with their durable bodies and electricity or the Hyuuga spinning around at tremendous speeds is not the same as expelling raw chakra out of their arms into powerful shields though. My point is that they can't replicate Chiyo's technique. They have alternative defences but they don't have the ability to use Chiyo's technique, which is specific to her because she's an extremely talented puppeteer. No technique requires more skill than the other, they just require skill in different areas/ways.

The difference is that Naruto and Sasuke had a shit ton of battles throughout Part II. Sakura had one at the start, and then nothing until the very end. She was not given the chance to show any natural progression.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Raikage tanking it with their durable bodies and electricity or the Hyuuga spinning around at tremendous speeds is not the same as expelling raw chakra out of their arms into powerful shields though. My point is that they can't replicate Chiyo's technique. They have alternative defences but they don't have the ability to use Chiyo's technique, which is specific to her because she's an extremely talented puppeteer. No technique requires more skill than the other, they just require skill in different areas/ways.
> 
> The difference is that Naruto and Sasuke had a shit ton of battles throughout Part II. Sakura had one at the start, and then nothing until the very end. She was not given the chance to show any natural progression.



, no technique requires more skill than others. so you would find raikiri to not be a less skilled technique than FRS for example. 

i know which is my point and why it sounds like a weird retcon


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> A didn't loose conciouness , bee didn't loose conciouness , sasuke didn't loose conciouness . Not sure what you on about
> 
> Both bee and sasuke could easily use replacement technique and had the thought process and calm to do so
> 
> ...


Ei, Sasuke and Bee weren't hit in the face with Amaterasu. Do note I specifically said hitting the opponent in the head would result in loss of consciosuness for the incredibly less durable Neji, Hiashi and Gengetsu compared to elite durability/regeneration CS2 Sasuke, elite durability Ei, and elite durability BM Bee, none of which are glass cannons.

Ridiciulous notion to suggest a mini van or building sized Amaterasu bolt hitting an opponent wouldn't result in igniting the head of an opponent, whether blocking or not.

Sasuke's large building bolt: 

Itachi's mini van sized bolt: she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support

Karin has elite pain tolerance when she had a Mokuton spear explode through her chest creating multiple exit wounds out of her back, producing not even a twitch as she bit to regenerate herself.

she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support


Amaterasu hit her back leaving minor burn wounds, and it resulted in instant loss of consciousness, while the above attack didn't even make her twitch. Do not underestimate the torturing nature of Amaterasu nor the affect extreme pain and heat can have on the bodies' functions.


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Ei, Sasuke and Bee weren't hit in the face with Amaterasu. Do note I specifically said hitting the opponent in the head would result in loss of consciosuness for the incredibly less durable Neji, Hiashi and Gengetsu compared to elite durability/regeneration CS2 Sasuke, elite durability Ei, and elite durability BM Bee, none of which are glass cannons.
> 
> Ridiciulous notion to suggest a mini van or building sized Amaterasu bolt hitting an opponent wouldn't result in igniting the head of an opponent, whether blocking or not.
> 
> ...



do note i am saying its not possible for it to hit anyone in their face seeing that a fodder samurai could put his hands up

also note amaterasu converges at the focus point...hence BIGGER OBJECT= BIGGER FOCAL POINT= BIGGER FLAME

not rocket science, so much so i dare you to show me 1 scan of itachi using a van sized or whatever you refer to it as on a human, or sasuke doing so. i mean why use a king sized one on a large target yet, use something extremely tiny in comparison against A

would be focal point wont it..either that or kishi is drunk.

what i think is the flame is always relative to the size of the target.

that same karin couldnt get up from the pain caused by a kick. do not confuse ability to immediately heal with pain tolerance.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> , no technique requires more skill than others. so you would find raikiri to not be a less skilled technique than FRS for example.
> 
> i know which is my point and why it sounds like a weird retcon



Well, some techniques obviously do. Thats why DB techniques have rankings, the ranks measure their difficulty to learn. FRS probably does require more skill than Raikiri - since Kakashi can master the latter but not the former. However, thats a very specific example where we can make a direct comparison. Chiyo's chakra shield does not require less skill than the Hyuuga's techniques do as far as we know, it just requires different skill ie. knowledge of puppetry and the ability to focus chakra into a solid form in the arm.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 1, 2016)

I stopped at it's not possible for Amaterasu to hit anyone in the head. Do hands partially blocking a face prevent the face from being engufled when this large of a wave of fire bursts around them?



The next time I'm trapped in the middle of a bonfire the size of my apartment building I'll be sure to put my hands up to my face, I hope it doesn't get burned.

That's your building sized Amaterasu, I provided the mini-van sized bolt in the post you literally replied to. Are you incapable of clicking links?


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## Saru (Sep 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> *Advanced replacement techniques(body shedding), like Bee or orochimaru*



One thing that I think tends to be overlooked is that Itachi's explanation of how Sasuke avoided Amaterasu had two key elements.

Orochimaru's Oral Rebirth was hard to detect.
Sasuke was out of Itachi's line of sight.
These two elements were made crucial by the author. Many seem to be of the opinion that anyone who can do any sort of shedding can escape Amaterasu, but the circumstances under which characters in this series have escaped Amaterasu were not that simple. If Sasuke, Orochimaru, or Kabuto tried to use Oral Rebirth right in front of Itachi, what do you think would happen? I think Itachi would just surround Sasuke and his new body in flames. Therefore, to escape Amaterasu, one needs to not only be able to get rid of the flames, but also be able to get out of the user's line of sight.

For that reason, I don't think these techniques are viable, because they don't fulfill that secondary requirement of escaping the Amaterasu's user's line of sight:



> *deidara: - *His clay technique seems a bit different from regular log replacement, its also the only substitution that was done while the user was straight up lying down





> *Gaara: *sand armour, is basically skin shedding, he can rid of the fire on him





> *Gengetsu: *Using jouki boy causes gengetsu to explode which is how he got out of the sand to begin with. However i think this method only works if gengetsu hasnt yet used JB



These I would more or less agree are viable:



> *Muu: *- his fission technique would be a perfect means of avoiding amaterasu. if hit square he can simply break in 2 like he did on panel, the body in front takes the hit while providing cover for the second body. Since he was quick enough to avoid some rasengan damage without naruto even noticing it



*



			Space time ninjutsu
		
Click to expand...

*


> hirashin and kamui users basically
> 
> *Chakra cloak users*
> 
> ...



As for this:



> *Neji/hiashi : *i dont believe their *full body blow* is going to be much weaker than the piss weak S/T nagato used to get amaterasu off him. I mean it was quite a weak one, it didnt even slightly crack the ground. while i get it can be directed, it barely had any force behind it



Not only has that technique never dispelled a ninjutsu on the scale of Amaterasu to my knowledge, I'm not convinced that any of the users could use it under the painful effects of Amaterasu. This is the same jutsu that felled Gyuki and has made bijuu cry out in pain.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Bogard (Sep 1, 2016)

The technique had the second strongest Biju screaming in pain. It was mainly used against people having counters for it(Obito's kamui, Hiraishin, Biju cloaks, substitution) which led to people underestimating the technique


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 1, 2016)

>all the people pretending that the flames spawn faster coming from rinnegan sasuke.

_the only characters capable of dodging of dodging it:_
-hiraishin users*(would probably get hit, but teleport away leaving the flames behind)
-v2 ei

i would put naruto, but based on kaguya not reacting to it, i cant say that six paths senjutsu gives him the reflex boost to perceive it before he gets hit. he has the shunshin, but not the reflexes.

_the characters capable of countering it in general:_
-all jinchuriki via chakra cloak purging
-all kamui users either slip through the flames or warp them away.
-all mokuton users purge the burning area
-kaguya absorbs it
-madara countered it already
-sage users can sense the chakra buildup and take preemptive measures
-rinnegan users can repel or absorb the flames
-shield of sand covers gaara before the jutsu is used
-danzo counters it with izanagi
-any uchiha with susano activates it before being hit
-oral rebirth counters it
-tsunade and sakura can punch the ground to block line of sight

there may be more.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 1, 2016)

Senjutsu enhanced the speed of Kamui as Obito and Kakashi showcased, there's nothing suggesting Amaterasu being released from the highest level Dojutsu (from MS to Rinnesharingan) enhanced with chakra directly from Hagoromo himself (pure senjutsu) wouldn't increase the ignition speed of the technique compared to butt eyes normal uchiha chakra MS Itachi.

That being said, irrelevant here. Most people are talking about Amaterasu on Itachi's level.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Senjutsu enhanced the speed of Kamui as Obito and Kakashi showcased, there's nothing suggesting Amaterasu being released from the highest level Dojutsu (from MS to Rinnesharingan) enhanced with chakra directly from Hagoromo himself (pure senjutsu) wouldn't increase the ignition speed of the technique compared to butt eyes normal uchiha chakra MS Itachi.
> 
> That being said, irrelevant here. Most people are talking about Amaterasu on Itachi's level.


i dont remember any character stating that the speed of kamui increased. 

likewise, the spawning speed of amaterasu is uniform among all users. the rinnegan doesnt contain any senjutsu. i dont know where that notion came from.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 2, 2016)

Are you implying War-arc MS Kakashi can warp Kaguya's bones before they travel a foot out of her portal?

Sasuke was imbued with Senjutsu by Hagoromo, which translates into all of his jutsu, which is exactly why you see Kaguya deflecting and avoiding strikes from Susano.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Are you implying War-arc MS Kakashi can warp Kaguya's bones before they travel a foot out of her portal?


obviously.

he already matched obitos warp speed, effectively doubling the speed of the jutsu. 

the same guy that did this.

*Spoiler*: __ 











> Sasuke was imbued with Senjutsu by Hagoromo, which translates into all of his jutsu, which is exactly why you see Kaguya deflecting and avoiding strikes from Susano.


makes no sense. sasuke wasnt imbued with any senjutsu. the seal on his hand was. he used a normal chidori against kaguya, contrary to what was used against madara.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 2, 2016)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> obviously.
> 
> he already matched obitos warp speed, effectively doubling the speed of the jutsu.
> 
> ...


Obito there is imbued with Senjutsu from Six Paths Senjutsu Madara, he stole the chakra from him previously. He is the one casting Kamui, I have no idea why you posted that.

Are you implying Kaguya was completely invulnerable to Sasuke's attacks unless he struck her with his left hand?

So this dude charged her with a Susano that couldn't harm her? Hahahaha. I guess Naruto and Sasuke were both unaware he didn't have Senjutsu, because Naruto coordinated an attack sequence where Sasuke slashed Kaguya with Susano by flanking her.

Both clueless that Sasuke couldn't possibly injure her, I guess. Lmao, you have no logic.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Obito there is imbued with Senjutsu from Six Paths Senjutsu Madara, he stole the chakra from him previously. He is the one casting Kamui, I have no idea why you posted that.


because it makes no difference. the chakra didnt increase his warping speed and kakashi already matched him since him & obito together made kamui operate at exactly twice the speed.


> Are you implying Kaguya was completely invulnerable to Sasuke's attacks unless he struck her with his left hand?
> 
> So this dude charged her with a Susano that couldn't harm her? Hahahaha. I guess Naruto and Sasuke were both unaware he didn't have Senjutsu, because Naruto coordinated an attack sequence where Sasuke slashed Kaguya with Susano by flanking her.
> 
> Both clueless that Sasuke couldn't possibly injure her, I guess. Lmao, you have no logic.


sasukes chidori turns black when enhanced by senjutsu. he attacked her with a chidori that wasnt black. not hard to comprehend.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 2, 2016)

What the hell are you talking about Kami? Kakashi isn't using Kamui there, that's all Senjutsu Obito.

Your argument makes no sense. The only reason Obito could warp that attack was because Senjutsu enhanced it's activation and completion speed, aside from Obito's mental and physical reaction speed.

Normal Kamui, which could not activate before Minato threw a kunai 30m, entered SM, made a Rasengan, warped to Judara, got his arm slashed off, got his arm kicked, and got his body kicked is no where near the speed of Senjutsu enhanced Kamui that warps away bone attacks that were sniping RSM Clones capable of stalemating Limbo.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> What the hell are you talking about Kami? Kakashi isn't using Kamui there, that's all Senjutsu Obito.






> Your argument makes no sense. The only reason Obito could warp that attack was because Senjutsu enhanced it's activation and completion speed, aside from Obito's mental and physical reaction speed.


senjutsu did nothing for kamuis warp speed.



> Normal Kamui, which could not activate before Minato threw a kunai 30m, entered SM, made a Rasengan, warped to Judara, got his arm slashed off, got his arm kicked, and got his body kicked is no where near the speed of Senjutsu enhanced Kamui that warps away bone attacks that were sniping RSM Clones capable of stalemating Limbo.


kakashis kamui matched obitos, otherwise the speed would not have doubled.


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## Icegaze (Sep 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> I stopped at it's not possible for Amaterasu to hit anyone in the head. Do hands partially blocking a face prevent the face from being engufled when this large of a wave of fire bursts around them?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 1 single scan of sasuke or Itachi using this building size Ama on a human target 

I'll wait


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## Icegaze (Sep 2, 2016)

Saru said:


> One thing that I think tends to be overlooked is that Itachi's explanation of how Sasuke avoided Amaterasu had two key elements.
> 
> Orochimaru's Oral Rebirth was hard to detect.
> Sasuke was out of Itachi's line of sight.
> ...



1. Please explain why the explosion from jouki boy won't work when a mini ST got rid of it

Gengetsu explodes himself and also thanks to the explosion gets out of LoS

Gaara sand armour can be shed , I.e act as q chakra cloak or juubi skin which we know got rid of Enton

So no reason they shouldn't work

I agree the hyuuga one could be reaching as well as Deidara

Perhaps bee was acting who knows , think people are going on that he was screaming in pain therefore one can use techniques to avoid it or something .

Also why is Muu fission technique only viable and not a sure thing 
Naruto had him in his direct LoS and is a sensor and we know has very good reactions , he didn't even notice Muu had slipped him . Onoki who was there and had knowledge didn't notice till he saw Muu again . 

Not seeing how being able to split and have one body directly behind the other doesn't specifically meet getting out of LoS

I do agree getting out of loS is the main thing as far as most techniques required to escape Amaterasu . Which is why log replacement won't work


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 2, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> When has kabuto ever displayed the speed or reflexes to dodge amaterasu.



 He literally displayed it on panel.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 2, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> He literally displayed it on panel.


Sasuke's intentions wasn't killing Kabuto but simply creating Amaterasu wall to protect Itachi.

That's beeing said , I think SM users can react and got ways to counter Amaterasu because Kage Summit SM Naruto and MS Sasuke are portrayed beeing equal and both of them would die if they have to fight.


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## Jerushee (Sep 2, 2016)

Sasuke could just use Enton to immediately move the flames back onto anyone who attempts to dislocate them off of them.


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## Mercurial (Sep 2, 2016)

Suggesting that Rikudo chakra doesn't enpower speed and power of everything its user can do is completely fallacious and ridicolous, it's like suggesting that without Rikudo chakra Kakashi could easily speedblitz Kaguya and react to Kaguya's S/T and warp with long range Kamui so fast that he outspeeded it, or that without Rikudo chakra Sasuke could parry physical hits from Juubi jinchuriki Madara's Rinbo, when hits from the much weaker SM Madara's Rinbo could easily knock out Tailed Beasts, fuck it. Rikudo chakra put the user's techniques (speed, power, efficacy) and stats (reflexes, movement/combat speed, physical strength, durability) on a whole another level, denying that is nonsensical.


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## Icegaze (Sep 2, 2016)

Jerushee said:


> Sasuke could just use Enton to immediately move the flames back onto anyone who attempts to dislocate them off of them.



This is true hence why gaara , naruto and bee method won't work against sasuke thanks to Enton control 

However the other methods should work just fine


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Ok let's look at ama good feats
> Burns sasuke , burns bee , burns toad stomach , burn Cerberus
> 
> Bad feats
> ...



But I already explained this.
You have to look at the consistency of the feat. Like is that particular feat consistent with the description and prior feats of the jutsu ?

For example Amateasu not being able to burn thorugh Karin's clothing makes absolutely no sense, but you can't say the same thing about Amaterasu burning away Cerebrus, because that is what the jutsu is supposed to do. The latter example is consistent with its description and hype and its prior feats.

Do you get it ? Amaterasu is supposed to burn through anything. So when it fails to do so against Karin(when priorly we witness it burn through alot more durable stuff), it is clearly an outlier. So no, you can't average that out, you have to completely discard that instance.

Also you are forgetting that Amaterasu wasn't used on Karin, she made momentary contact with the left over flames on B's tentacles. We know for a fact that the initial flames are alot stronger, based on the fact that Itachi was able to bust open a hole in the Toad stomach in a very short time frame, but the left over flames on it weren't actually eating away through the rest of the stomatch with the same pace.

So like I said, we can completely discard the instance with Karin.



> So basically you would consider A side stepping it not in the heat of battle ? There was a pause and they took a break ? I didn't know


There was a brief pause after A slammed on him on the ground. They both stood there face to face. But as long as A is has knowledge and expecting it, he should be able to avoid it.


> Yes and yet minato has better reaction feats , any thoughts on that?


No he doesn't.
Manga clearly states that A and Minato have comparable reactions and A has the capability of enhancing it even further. Then we see him amp his shroud up, which is what C was referring to when he made that comment.

So the reaction speed A used to avoid Amaterasu is a level of reaction speed higher than Minato's.



> What happened to A super reactions there when he couldn't even see minato toss the Kunai to avoid him


Thats pretty simple. He didn't have any knowledge on Minato's technique. Why would he care about a kunai that Minato left behind ?



> I wonder was that in the heat of battle ?
> What's in the heat of battle please ?
> 
> In which situation has Amaterasu been used which would be considered in the heat of battle ?



Heat of the battle is when 2 people are exchanging blows or jutsu or something else instead of pausing and staring at each other.
For example when Itachi used against Sasuke's katon, is in the heat of the battle.
When Sasuke used on Danzo is in the heat of the battle.
When Sasuke used it to protect Itachi from Kabuto is in the heat of the battle.

The second Amaterasu Itachi Sasuke used on Sasuke is not in the battle.
Amaterasu Sasuke used on A is not in the heat of the battle.

Off the top of my head.


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## Icegaze (Sep 2, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But I already explained this.
> You have to look at the consistency of the feat. Like is that particular feat consistent with the description and prior feats of the jutsu ?
> 
> For example Amateasu not being able to burn thorugh Karin's clothing makes absolutely no sense, but you can't say the same thing about Amaterasu burning away Cerebrus, because that is what the jutsu is supposed to do. The latter example is consistent with its description and hype and its prior feats.
> ...



First off 
Bullshit 
A knew of minato Jutsu , even the cloud fodder knew and recognised the Kunai as a hirashin Kunai 

Can't argue with the manga statement it does state A has better reactions but that minato is faster . End result Minqto gets from A to B first always . That's what defines being faster 

Fair enough on the heat of battle can't argue that one 

But when was it used in heat of battle that the enemy didn't see it coming ? I have no idea how Itachi uses it in heat of battle and Minqto doesn't see it coming 

One thing that is consistent is every single person has always seen it coming 

What's the outliner is KCm Naruto not being able to see it 

So we can disregard that according to your rules right ?


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 2, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Sasuke's intentions wasn't killing Kabuto but simply creating Amaterasu wall to protect Itachi.
> 
> That's beeing said , I think SM users can react and got ways to counter Amaterasu because Kage Summit SM Naruto and MS Sasuke are portrayed beeing equal and both of them would die if they have to fight.



That's irrelevant because the flames were aimed at him and if Amaterasu was a way to end the battle quickly, he wouldn't have resorted to more lethal attacks such as Susano'o Arrow and he also wouldn't have expressed concern to Itachi about how difficult it would be to kill him if it were as simple as Amaterasu GG.

I love Itachi as much as the next one, but he clearly evaded Amaterasu. I don't necessarily agree with SM users being capable of defending against Amaterasu with mere hand seals, even when the much faster KCM Naruto expressed concern upon Itachi "using" it. Actually, if KCM Naruto couldn't even form a seal in response to V1 Raikage punched him, why would I expected slower SM users such as SM Naruto and SM Jiraiya to casually react to it with just a mere hand seal? That's a complete underestimation of the attack's speed. The only reason Kabuto could do so was because of Kabuto's Snake Sensing being well-equipped in reacting to heat and the fact that he's a top tier sensor.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> First off
> Bullshit
> A knew of minato Jutsu , even the cloud fodder knew and recognised the Kunai as a hirashin Kunai


My bad, he didn't know that Minato could place marks on other spots than his kunai, thats why he didn't expect Minato to teleport to B the 2nd time around.
In the first instance, I guess A simply didn't expect Minato to avoid him, so he wasn't paying any attention to what Minato was doing.



> Can't argue with the manga statement it does state A has better reactions but that minato is faster . End result Minqto gets from A to B first always . That's what defines being faster


Thats true.
But there is one thing we need to mention here.
Lets say A's reaction speed is X units. And Minato's reaction speed is X units + 1. If they are both subjected to an attack that requires them to have at least X units of reaction speed to avoid, then regardless of who can move from y to z quicker, the one who doesn't have the necessary reaction speed will get tagged.



> But when was it used in heat of battle that the enemy didn't see it coming ? I have no idea how Itachi uses it in heat of battle and Minqto doesn't see it coming



It isn't about whether you see it coming or not. Its whether if you can see it coming in time or not.
Itachi can use it after throwing another attack, a feint or genjutsu or wait for Minato to make his move and use Amaterasu as a counter hit.

There is a reason why "combinations" exists in martial arts. If you run up to a person and try to punch them, it is very likely that they can avoid or block the punch. But if you throw in a few kicks, a feint and then follow with a punch, it will be alot harder for them to avoid it.

Same thing applies to every jutsu and attack. Amaterasu is no different.



> One thing that is consistent is every single person has always seen it coming



Most of the time it was used, it was conveniently used on people who were expecting it.
Remove the plot out of the equation and it would be different.



> What's the outliner is KCm Naruto not being able to see it


Nagato didn't see it coming too, he was talking and all of a sudden he was like "huh" and he was on fire.



> So we can disregard that according to your rules right ?



Actually that supports my argument. Naruto wasn't expecting it, so he wasn't able to react to it.

It just proves that most people can't react to it on the fly without some kind of an anticipation.


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## Icegaze (Sep 2, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> My bad, he didn't know that Minato could place marks on other spots than his kunai, thats why he didn't expect Minato to teleport to B the 2nd time around.
> In the first instance, I guess A simply didn't expect Minato to avoid him, so he wasn't paying any attention to what Minato was doing.
> 
> 
> ...



Am
Referring to the first time minato avoided him . He didn't notice the Kunai at all. What idiot doesn't pay attention to an enemy he is directly lookin at and attacking ? Weak argument from you there

Danzo reacted to Amaterasu though , you can clearly see the exclamation mark . I brig him up since Amaterasu was used after susanoo in a combination attack this in the heat of battle . 

Therefoee one doesn't need A reaction to see it coming hear of battle or not , fodder samurai did see it as well. 

You would notice exclamation mark shows up and his hands are up by the time it hits him

Bee noticed it approaching him etc

What you may need is A level of speed to leave LoS which minato simply exceeds

All that is nice and all but in the 10+ times Amaterasu was used the enemy has always and I mean always seen it coming except the outliner which you should disregard since you have said outliners should be disregarded

And no it doesn't make your point , it does the exact opposite

Danzo wasn't expecting Amaterasu , bee didn't even know of it , as ZERO KNOWLEDGE

 fodder samurai certainly didn't either yet all saw it coming

So the notion that it's gonna surprise minato when it's failed to surprise everyone bar the outliner doesn't really help your case at all

Nagato sensed it , exclamation mark before it hit him

Feel free to check

I think your point falls flat when a fodder samurai who wasn't the target of the attack react to it before it hits him seeing that rhe panel before his hands are down and by the time it makes contact he has his hands up

Bee, A, fodder samurai , Danzo , base nqruto, juubito

Basically people of all varying levels

All have different reaction speeds

All saw it coming . So why on earth is the KCm feat the only one which with your woddwn glasses you manage to see

Your argument is as good as saying minato marked obito he couldn't react therefore every other feat is an outliner and he blitzes everyone he marks


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Am
> Referring to the first time minato avoided him . He didn't notice the Kunai at all. What idiot doesn't pay attention to an enemy he is directly lookin at and attacking ?



A is a meathead. He is a guy who rushes in recklessly all the time. He is the kind of guy who wouldn't pay much attention to anything, especailly if he thinks he'll blitz and 1 hit kill his opponent.



> Weak argument from you there


You claim that A didn't take notice of Minato's Kunai because he doesn't have the necessary reaction speed.
Which is the weak argument again ?



> Danzo reacted to Amaterasu though , you can clearly see the exclamation mark .


Danzo is familiar with MS, he reacted to Sasuke's eye bleeding aka the build up, not the jutsu itself.



> Thus one doesn't need A reaction to see it coming ,


Then A wouldn't need to use his max shroud. Pretty simple.



> fodder samurai did as well .
> You would notice exclamation mark shows up and his hands are up by the time it hits him



Amaterasu was already formed on A's afterimage, so the Samurai literally saw it hanging in mid air before it moved towards him.

she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support
she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support

You are kinda reaching here. That hurts your credibility.



> Bee noticed it approaching him etc


Amaterasu is not a projectile, you can't notice it "approaching."
It was Sasuke's first time using Amaterasu, and he used it from a very long range, so he likely wasn't able to form it on B. So B was in the Samurai's position where he saw the jutsu form further away from himself and move towards him.
Or it is just an outlier which probably is.



> What you may need is A level of speed to leave LoS which minato simply exceeds


You need A's reaction speed to react to the formation of Amaterasu.



> All that is nice and all but in the 10+ times Amaterasu was used the enemy has always and I mean always seen it coming except the outliner which you should disregard since you have said outliners should be disregarded


I don't see any definite outliers except for BM B's instance which may be interpreted as Sasuke being inexperienced and using the technique furhter away from its optimal range.



> And no it doesn't make your point , it does the exact opposite


But I actually expalined why it proves my point.
Naruto wasn't expecting it and he wasn't able to react to it.
That means you can't react to it on the fly. It is pretty clear cut imo.



> Danzo wasn't expecting Amaterasu , bee didn't even know of it , fodder samurai certainly didn't either yet all saw it coming


I adressed all this above.



> So the notion that it's gonna surprise minat when it's failed to surprise everyone bar the outliner doesn't really help your case at all


I explained this as well, A was ready for it, Danzo reacted to the eye bleeding, the build up, not the jutsu itself. B thing is either an outlier, or Sasuke couldn't form it on B. The Samurai saw Amaterasu form on the after image of A and then move towards him.
There are no outliers except for B's instance. Other than that, its very consistent.

Most people who reacted to the jutsu anticpated it either by sensing it, or by reacting to the build up.And the only people who were able to do something about it are A and Juubito. And both of them have top tier reactions. Juubito is on top of it is a very high level sensor.



> Nagato sensed it , exclamation mark before it hit him
> 
> Feel free to check


Thanks, I did. And you are wrong.
she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support
He was talking, and then he was on fire.



> I think your point falls flat when a fodder samurai who wasn't the target of the attack react to it before it hits him seeing that rhe panel before his hands are down and by the time it makes contact he has his hands up



I think you should pay more attention to the manga before you make such bold claims. 



> Bee, A, fodder samurai , Danzo , base nqruto, juubito
> 
> Basically people of all varying levels
> 
> ...



Nah.



> So why on earth is the KCm feat the only one which with your woddwn glasses you manage to see


Again, it comes down to the consistency of a feat.

If Nukite can kill Sandaime but then later on it fails to kill Kakashi, then you know which feat you will discard. Its pretty obvious.

We know for a fact that A used his top reaction speed to react to it. And the only people who could actually react and do something about it were people with top tier reaction speed.
We saw KCM Naruto not being able to react to it in time. Same goes for Nagato.

You trying to prove your point by using the Samurai instance(an instance you completely misunderstood) feels dishonest man. I'm dissapointed in you.



> Your argument is as good as saying minato marked obito he couldn't react therefore every other feat is an outliner and he blitzes everyone he marks



You probably misunderstood my argument champ.
I never ignore common sense and circumstances, which you seem to be accusing me of.

I think before you jump to  a conclusion and make generalizations, you have to really look deep in to the circumstances and stipulations.


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## Icegaze (Sep 2, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> A is a meathead. He is a guy who rushes in recklessly all the time. He is the kind of guy who wouldn't pay much attention to anything, especailly if he thinks he'll blitz and 1 hit kill his opponent.



lol weak. that same meat head had no issues pointing tsunade was fighting recklessly. Just maybe he simply didnt see the kunai thus couldnt react to it. because it happened quicker than he could react vs the he is a meat head. IS sasuke a meat head? cuz he didnt fight any smarter, who jumps at 3 opponents he knows something about? why isnt the same statement made about sasuke?




> You claim that A didn't take notice of Minato's Kunai because he doesn't have the necessary reaction speed.
> Which is the weak argument again ?



yours without a doubt. how can you be straight up looking at someone and not notice their hand has moved and they have flicked a kunai right in front of you?



> Danzo is familiar with MS, he reacted to Sasuke's eye bleeding aka the build up, not the jutsu itself.



but the build is required before the jutsu can be used. thus reacting to the build up=reacting to the jutsu itself since build up is a requirement of the jutsu 




> Then A wouldn't need to use his max shroud. Pretty simple.



no doubt A needed it. am saying max or not he isnt getting out of LoS quicker than minato can. cuz minato is faster.





> Amaterasu was already formed on A's afterimage, so the Samurai literally saw it hanging in mid air before it moved towards him.



lol amaterasu has the ability to hang now? is it spiderman?



> she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support
> she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support
> 
> You are kinda reaching here. That hurts your credibility.



you the one claiming spiderman amaterasu here.  please circle where you think the samurai hands are in the second link top panel!! OH GOD please do circle it and show me where it is drawn.




> Amaterasu is not a projectile, you can't notice it "approaching."
> It was Sasuke's first time using Amaterasu, and he used it from a very long range, so he likely wasn't able to form it on B. So B was in the Samurai's position where he saw the jutsu form further away from himself and move towards him.
> Or it is just an outlier which probably is.



and yet this non projectile only appeared after bee moved his tail. Bee who had no knowledge of the jutsu

so the jutsu MOVED towards him...your words there. oh so samurai is outliner, bee is outliner..the outliners seem to be stacking up here




> You need A's reaction speed to react to the formation of Amaterasu.



despite base naruto not having said reactions. or is that also an outliner?



> I don't see any definite outliers except for BM B's instance which may be interpreted as Sasuke being inexperienced and using the technique furhter away from its optimal range.



aghainst naruto sasuke was more than experienced. man had EMS, and yet naruto reacted to it




> But I actually expalined why it proves my point.
> Naruto wasn't expecting it and he wasn't able to react to it.
> That means you can't react to it on the fly. It is pretty clear cut imo.



and danzo was because? i mean you did say he reacted to the build up right. Naruto just finished having a crow pulled out of him after the last MS jutsu. who knows what his state of mind was there. whats odd though is to you this isnt an outliner despite more uses of it being shown that people react to the build up or whatever excuse you need to make




> I adressed all this above.


 excuses




> I explained this as well, A was ready for it, Danzo reacted to the eye bleeding, the build up, not the jutsu itself. B thing is either an outlier, or Sasuke couldn't form it on B. The Samurai saw Amaterasu form on the after image of A and then move towards him.
> There are no outliers except for B's instance. Other than that, its very consistent.



yes moved towards the samurai after it hung itself mid air right? so what you have said is one can react to the build up. explain why minato cant react to the build up again?




> Most people who reacted to the jutsu anticpated it either by sensing it, or by reacting to the build up.And the only people who were able to do something about it are A and Juubito. And both of them have top tier reactions. Juubito is on top of it is a very high level sensor.



A did something about it, by reacting to the build up as you say correct? danzo reacts to the build up as well but cant get out of the way. guess who can move out of the way quicker than A? once you said danzo reacts to the build up therefore estabilishing there is a build up to react to, you basically said minato reacts to it. since there is no conceivable explanation as to why danzo can react but minato cant




> Thanks, I did. And you are wrong.
> she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support
> He was talking, and then he was on fire.



as you are about the hanging amaterasu.  nagato says Ah i see what you did there before he is hit. look at his neck position please before and after he is hit, you would note that statement wasnt made after being hit. otherwise you are basically saying the effects of burnign take long enough for nagato to say

"AH I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" with a smile on his face before the jutsu takes effect. i had no idea hirashin was slower than nagato words





> I think you should pay more attention to the manga before you make such bold claims.



says the guy who just said amaterasu hung MID AIR, THEN MOVED towards the samurai. as if it has a mind of its own





> Nah.



your cute




> Again, it comes down to the consistency of a feat.
> 
> If Nukite can kill Sandaime but then later on it fails to kill Kakashi, then you know which feat you will discard. Its pretty obvious.



why disregard the kakashi one? perhaps the previous one was the outliner? NO? its 50/50 here.



> We know for a fact that A used his top reaction speed to react to it. And the only people who could actually react and do something about it were people with top tier reaction speed.
> We saw KCM Naruto not being able to react to it in time. Same goes for Nagato.



and we know for a FACT by your admission danzo reacted to the build up therefore minato can.




> You trying to prove your point by using the Samurai instance(an instance you completely misunderstood) feels dishonest man. I'm dissapointed in you.



kettle and pot here. you claimed hanging spiderman amaterasu here quoted for evidence




> Amaterasu was already formed on A's afterimage, s*o the Samurai literally saw it hanging in mid air before it* moved towards him.


  , hanging in mid air!! hanging in MID AIR!!!




> You probably misunderstood my argument champ.
> I never ignore common sense and circumstances, which you seem to be accusing me of.
> 
> I think before you jump to  a conclusion and make generalizations, you have to really look deep in to the circumstances and stipulations.



no you just claim amaterasu can hang mid air then proceed to move after as if its spiderman

i mean really the hypocrisy behind this honestly 

hanging fucking amaterasu!!! hanging amaterasu!! as in your choice of words man!!! hanging !!!! what did it hang to? did it do it by its own will? please MR common sense explain how fire decides to hang mid air on its own ..i honestly want a logical explanation for this


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> 1 single scan of sasuke or Itachi using this building size Ama on a human target
> 
> I'll wait


My man, why does the size of the target have anything to do with the size capacity of the technique?

It's entirely dependent on how big the user wants to make it, with a clear feat cap being the size Sasuke used. 

Put all of your targets against the bolt manifested onto Gyuki, less people counter and survive it.


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## Icegaze (Sep 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> My man, why does the size of the target have anything to do with the size capacity of the technique?
> 
> It's entirely dependent on how big the user wants to make it, with a clear feat cap being the size Sasuke used.
> 
> Put all of your targets against the bolt manifested onto Gyuki, less people counter and survive it.



i completely agreed but then why drop a building to kill an ant? who would? perhaps this is why no amaterasu user has ever used a building size amaterasu on a human target. perhaps it requires more chakra, perhaps more build up , who knows

but yes certainly a large size ama would be harder to avoid. i have never once denied that


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> lol weak. that same meat head had no issues pointing tsunade was fighting recklessly. Just maybe he simply didnt see the kunai thus couldnt react to it. because it happened quicker than he could react vs the he is a meat head. IS sasuke a meat head? cuz he didnt fight any smarter, who jumps at 3 opponents he knows something about? why isnt the same statement made about sasuke?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Man, this is getting boring. You are stalling for no reason. 

I didn't bother to read all of it but I skimmed very quickly. Couple of errors I need to point out real quick  :

1 - Nagato's remark at "I see what you did" was directed at Koto, not Amaterasu. 
2 - Why would A care if Minato flicked his wrist and elevated his kunai 30 cm's ? It wasn't a threat to A, and by the time he realized Minato was gone it was too late already.
3 - I never claimed that Minato can't react to the build up. If Minato just teleports away seeing Itachi's eye bleed, then Itachi simply doesn't use Amaterasu. He is perfectly capable of that  : she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support He  stopped casting Amaterasu the moment Koto took effect, and that was after the build up and the eye bleeding.

As for mechanics of Amaterasu which you can't seem to grasp ;

I already proved that Amaterasu is not a projectile many times in other threads and I remember you agreed with me. So I have no idea why you re being stubborn about it now. Anyways, lets prove that again now shall we ? :

she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support
she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support
You can see Naruto's godoudama leaving a trail inside the ice. Top right panel in the first image, and bottom middle panel in the second.
Instead of using Kagutschi, Sasuke uses Amaterasu, because it forms. It doesn't travel  : she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support
We know it didn't travel because there is no trail leading back to Sasuke's eye. It just formed out of nowhere. 

Now that we established that Amaterasu is not a projectile, lets move on to the next part.

she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support

Bottom right panel. Do you see whats happening ? The afterimage dissapears and the amaterasu keeps forming on mid air.

she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support
 And as soon as the after image completey dissapears, the samurai comes into Sasuke's focus and Amaterasu starts moving towards him. Because thats what Amaterasu does, it moves with the users Gaze once it is formed. This is not something new, we have seen it before : she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support
Itachi is pursuing sasuke with his gaze and Amaterasu is traveling towards him.

Thats what I meant by hanging in mid air.


If you have better explanations, be my guest and present your evidence.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 2, 2016)

It's irrelevant why they would do it, what we're testing here is who can counter the technique.

The technique at it's most powerful was displayed against BM Bee, take it or leave it, that bolt was gigantic and would prevent counters from opponents attempting to body blow, push off with sand armor or rebirth themselves back into the raging fire.

Granted Itachi and Sasuke use smaller bolts more commonly, it doesn't change the fact that if they wanted to leave the least chance for counter they could drastically increase the size and AoE of Amaterasu.


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## Icegaze (Sep 2, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Man, this is getting boring. You are stalling for no reason.



 i mean sure i got bored a while back when every bad feat from Ama response is thats an outliner despite there being more bad than good



> I didn't bother to read all of it but I skimmed very quickly. Couple of errors I need to point out real quick  :
> 
> 1 - Nagato's remark at "I see what you did" was directed at Koto, not Amaterasu.



finish reading my post perhaps? i know it isnt. but the panel sequence is as follows. itachi eye bleeds, amaterasu. Nagato says i see what you did there. then he catches fire. or are you saying nagato made his comment before itachi used amaterasu? if so why is the panel sequence wrong? why show above nagato comment itachi using amaterasu?




> 2 - Why would A care if Minato flicked his wrist and elevated his kunai 30 cm's ? It wasn't a threat to A, and by the time he realized Minato was gone it was too late already.



because A knows the mechanics of the jutsu. thus means minato can now avoid him.  . its abit silly to say A knows about hirashin but isnt bothered by the marked kunai being away from the user. . doesnt that mean minato has a chance to avoid him?




> 3 - I never claimed that Minato can't react to the build up. If Minato just teleports away seeing Itachi's eye bleed, then Itachi simply doesn't use Amaterasu. He is perfectly capable of that  : she was at the mercy of a dude she supposedly put on life support He  stopped casting Amaterasu the moment Koto took effect, and that was after the build up and the eye bleeding.



ok so everytime itachi starts the process and his eye bleeds, minato teleports away and he stops it. itachi is going to need alot of wipes, cuz that means basically he cant successfully use the technique against minato then



> As for mechanics of Amaterasu which you can't seem to grasp ;
> 
> I already proved that Amaterasu is not a projectile many times in other threads and I remember you agreed with me. So I have no idea why you re being stubborn about it now. Anyways, lets prove that again now shall we ? :
> 
> ...



the words you have used in your explanation of it appearing are travelling towards the target. once its formed it moves with the gaze. 

where does it form please? and if it does form at the target why does the user need to move it with his gaze?

why does it more often than not always seem to crash into the victim? it collided with juubito staff, crashed into the samurai etc

if the target had moved and a new target was in sight, shouldnt it just appear at the new target vs move towards the target like you just said it did

or is your explanation that the intial target say person X, if he doesnt move it appears on him. but if person X moves, it appears at previous location and then the user must move his gaze to have amaterasu chase?

wouldnt that be the definition of converging which is the word used to describe amaterasu in the databook?


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## ARGUS (Sep 2, 2016)

Kamuis speed is a property of the jutsu

Senjutsu or kyuubi chakra are just buffs that increase the jutsus power but cannot change its properties  

Same reason why Kakshis Kamui that was buffed by 3x didn't change its speed at all. Only its scale


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 2, 2016)

I don't believe Kamui was enhanced by Senjutsu Chakra. The only enhancement Kamui was stated to have received from greater chakra potency or quantity was warping larger objects, but I don't recall Kamui's warp speed being enhanced in any way. A lot of Kakashi's issues with it was due to his chakra control, not necessarily because of his chakra potency. He was stated to have already mastered the Dojutsu, so I believe it's a reasonable assertion that his Kamui's speed was as fast as Obito's.

 Even when the Databook entry mentions the effects chakra has on the jutsu, the only thing even mentioned was the impact it had on the size of the object, not on the warp speed of the technique:



With Amaterasu, it's rather clear that the ignition process was enhanced (faster) only because the entire jutsu itself is literally the ignition of the flames.


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## Saru (Sep 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> 1. Please explain why the explosion from jouki boy won't work when a mini ST got rid of it
> 
> Gengetsu explodes himself and also thanks to the explosion gets out of LoS



I don't see how Shinra Tensei is particularly relevant here.

But, two things I do see:

1. Gengetsu has never used Jouki Boy while under the effects of something like Amaterasu, which deals constant damage.
2. More importantly, Jouki Boi is clone-based jutsu. Does it make sense for an exploding clone to be able to blow something off of you? It's not like Gengetsu is making his own body explode with that technique, and even if he did have the clone explode near him and turn him into a puddle, that wouldn't make the flames go away... It'd make Gengetsu evaporate.

In Gaara's case, Gengetsu could escape the sand pyramid because the sand pyramid was only affecting him physically (by restraining, like a prison), not chemically, like Amaterasu would be.



> Gaara sand armour can be shed , I.e act as q chakra cloak or juubi skin which we know got rid of Enton
> 
> So no reason they shouldn't work



Except Gaara can't keep doing that because the sand has to travel from Gaara's gourd to Gaara's body to recreate the armor. Itachi and Sasuke can keep using Amaterasu, and Amaterasu travels faster than that sand does.



> Also why is Muu fission technique only viable and not a sure thing
> Naruto had him in his direct LoS and is a sensor and we know has very good reactions , he didn't even notice Muu had slipped him . Onoki who was there and had knowledge didn't notice till he saw Muu again .
> Not seeing how being able to split and have one body directly behind the other doesn't specifically meet getting out of LoS



Well, nothing is ever assured IMO. If Itachi or Sasuke decided to use a massive burst of Amaterasu, Muu could be completely enveloped regardless. I do think this is more viable than some of the other strategies you suggested, though, because if Muu remains invisible, he can stay out of sight, and much like Orochimaru's Oral Rebirth, his fission is hard to detect.


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## Jad (Sep 2, 2016)

As I believe Hiashi and Neji to remove Ameteratsu by full-body blow, I also believe Gai activating the 7th Gate can as well.


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## Icegaze (Sep 3, 2016)

Saru said:


> I don't see how Shinra Tensei is particularly relevant here.
> 
> But, two things I do see:
> 
> ...




How did gengetsu use it then when covered by gaara sand and was about to be sealed
Jouki boy explosion allowed him to escape the sand funeral without being turned into puddle by the explosion near him ? Or did he magically move from the funeral then have JB explode it even though he was no longer there ?

why would gengetsu pain tolerance be less than sasuke who could still use chidori and oro replacement tech ?

Think we grasping at straws here

JB exploded a technique off gengetsu , he was surrounded from all sides


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## Icegaze (Sep 3, 2016)

Jad said:


> As I believe Hiashi and Neji to remove Ameteratsu by full-body blow, I also believe Gai activating the 7th Gate can as well.



I only didn't mention gai to not have you turn this into a gai thread


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## Sapherosth (Sep 3, 2016)

Pretty sure kawarimi are used before they're hit, not after.


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## Jad (Sep 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I only didn't mention gai to not have you turn this into a gai thread


Fair enough. Won't mention him again.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 3, 2016)

Jad said:


> As I believe Hiashi and Neji to remove Ameteratsu by full-body blow, I also believe Gai activating the 7th Gate can as well.


I agree with this, which is why I named him among many in my original post.

Of course he could merely dash away when the eye bleeds, maintain his movement as to never be seen by the Uchiha to activate Amaterasu in time assuming he's in a high enough gate (I believe 6th Gate would be sufficient) aside from throwing morning peacock bolts to screen himself when the eye bleeds. 

Of course bringing in moving his head in reaction to Kamui absorbing his soshuga before they were absorbed would suggest he could avoid it in base... but let's not get into that now

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I only didn't mention gai to not have you turn this into a gai thread



 What's wrong with some information and respek for Gai?


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## Icegaze (Sep 3, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> What's wrong with some information and respek for Gai?



I do put some respek on his name 
I know am playing with a killer here


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 3, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Kamuis speed is a property of the jutsu
> 
> Senjutsu or kyuubi chakra are just buffs that increase the jutsus power but cannot change its properties
> 
> Same reason why Kakshis Kamui that was buffed by 3x didn't change its speed at all. Only its scale


There's no possible way normal MS Kakashi's kamui is warping perfect Kaguya's ash bones away before they could move 1 foot out of her surprise portal below. That attack was lighting up Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto Clones from distance like target practice and Kakashi couldn't avoid it with a flying PS. 

Senjutsu absolutely increased the activation and manifestation speed of Kamui which without Senjutsu couldn't even manifest before Juudara slashed someone's arm off and punted it 30m into the caster.

Please, do not claim Minato's punted arm 30m across terrain >= Ash Bones moving 1 foot in speed


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 3, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Senjutsu absolutely increased the activation and manifestation speed of Kamui which without Senjutsu couldn't even manifest before Juudara slashed someone's arm off and punted it 30m into the caster.
> 
> Please, do not claim Minato's punted arm 30m across terrain > Ash Bones moving 1 foot in speed



 There's a massive size disparity between the two. Kaguya's ash bones are significantly smaller than Obito's entire body. Within that same scenario, we have Kakashi warping away that same punted arm point-blank, the instant before it actually tagged him.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 3, 2016)

Irrelevant, the portal didn't even partially open and it was activated before Base Minato made a single move. He made several, including engineering a Rasengan and entering sage mode before this portal could even open an eye's width, adding in the punted arm traveling 30m as well. 

The same Kamui can now warp an Ash Bone before it moves 1 foot without any enhancement?

So what you're saying is if the Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto Clones that were stalemating Limbo Judaras had Kakashi's normal MS eye it would not have been sniped by these bones from 30m?
[x]

Confirmed, normal kamui > RSM Naruto Clone, Limbo speed


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## ARGUS (Sep 3, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> There's no possible way normal MS Kakashi's kamui is warping perfect Kaguya's ash bones away before they could move 1 foot out of her surprise portal below. That attack was lighting up Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto Clones from distance like target practice and Kakashi couldn't avoid it with a flying PS.
> 
> Senjutsu absolutely increased the activation and manifestation speed of Kamui which without Senjutsu couldn't even manifest before Juudara slashed someone's arm off and punted it 30m into the caster.
> 
> Please, do not claim Minato's punted arm 30m across terrain >= Ash Bones moving 1 foot in speed


Your basis is shut down by the fact that you're using an example of single kamui and comparing it with double kamui 

Using Kmaui from both eyes doubles it's warping speed, that's a manga fact 

Kakashi activated kamui on proper time, the Rikduo chakra improved his reactions. Not the actual speed of his kamui warp 
There's a difference


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 3, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Your basis is shut down by the fact that you're using an example of single kamui and comparing it with double kamui
> 
> Using Kmaui from both eyes doubles it's warping speed, that's a manga fact
> 
> ...


What are you talking about? Kakashi cast the Kamui on the ash bone with his left eye, singular Kamui speed.


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## ARGUS (Sep 3, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> What are you talking about? Kakashi cast the Kamui on the ash bone with his left eye, singular Kamui speed.


He had kamui on both eyes, so the boost was automatic, irrespective of the fact that he used a left eye Kmaui jutsu 


And this is a testament to his reactions not the warping speed 
He was able to activate kamui the second ash bone was released out of the portal 

Rikduo chakra won't increase the speed of jutsu like Amaterasu as it has already been shown. 
Kamui is no different here


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## Icegaze (Sep 3, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Pretty sure kawarimi are used before they're hit, not after.



So your saying bee was already in his tentacle before he got hit when he had no idea sasuke would attack him ?


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 3, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> He had kamui on both eyes, so the boost was automatic, irrespective of the fact that he used a left eye Kmaui jutsu
> 
> 
> And this is a testament to his reactions not the warping speed
> ...


The boost isn't automatic, that's only the case when both eyes are used on a single target which is impossible on a ranged target for a single user.

Obito shows us using double Kamui warping himself and those touching him:
[x]
[x]

The entire basis for Kamui being twice the speed is there is two separate Kamui techniques being used on a single target. In the above scan he is using his original Kamui teleportation technique, combined with Kakashi's teleportation technique, both capable of being used on self simultaneously. One Kamui cannot produce the twice the speed of Kamui, it is one Kamui.

I believe you're in the extreme minority presuming all kamui techniques singularly doubled in speed when the second eye was implanted. Most people are aware the only double speed Kamui DMS Obito/Kakashi can produce is self teleportation based, because that is the only technique both Kamui eyes share- while they separately are capable of intangibility and ranged warpholes.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So your saying bee was already in his tentacle before he got hit when he had no idea sasuke would attack him ?




Bee escaped by using his tentacle that Sasuke cut with Chidori.


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## Icegaze (Sep 3, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Bee escaped by using his tentacle that Sasuke cut with Chidori.



We have also seen him cut his own tentacle . Not sure what you trying to imply 

Fact is bee escaped after Amaterasu hit so he used his replacement technique after the fact


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## Icegaze (Sep 3, 2016)

Perhaps Amaterasu is sort of like shunshin
We have seen shunshin drawn as if the person just appears there even though we know for a fact they had to move from A to B therefore had to cover the distance in between

A and sasuke are prime examples . Kishi has drawn them appear at their enemy as if they didn't just cross that distance perhaps Amaterasu is the same

Since I can count the following times it appeared and it's undeniable based on how it's drawn

-against kaguya
- against Cerberus
- against Nagato
- against kaguya ice

These times its drawn as if it moves towards the target

- against juubito
- against A
- against bee
- against sasuke
- against naruto

So almost as often it either appears or is shown travelling

It's not different from shunshin really where sometimes kishi draws it and you can tell the user is moving towards the target and other times he draws them at location A then suddenly at B

But we know for a fact the distance between A and B massively affects How quick you get there with shunshin

If Amaterasu appeared at targe t the distance the target is at won't matter

Same way minato with hirashin can cover 10m if location B is marked just as quickly as he would 1000000m

That's appearing at a location

@Grimmjowsensei @Sapherosth @Saru


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> finish reading my post perhaps? i know it isnt. but the panel sequence is as follows. itachi eye bleeds, amaterasu. Nagato says i see what you did there. then he catches fire. or are you saying nagato made his comment before itachi used amaterasu? if so why is the panel sequence wrong? why show above nagato comment itachi using amaterasu?



Dude I'm trying not to say anything mean but it is getting harder let me tell you that.

[x]
"huh Its not Amaterasu ?"

[x]
"Its your crow isn't it ? What did you do with it ?"

[x]
"It worked."
"ah I see what you did."

The whole dialogue sequence is Nagato trying to understand how Itachi gained control of his actions. It has nothing to do with Amaterasu.



> because A knows the mechanics of the jutsu. thus means minato can now avoid him.
> 
> its abit silly to say A knows about hirashin but isnt bothered by the marked kunai being away from the user. . doesnt that mean minato has a chance to avoid him?



Minato having the capability of avoiding him doesn't translate into avoiding him, as evident in A's surprise "he avoided my full speed?"
A was simply not expecting Minato to react to him.



> ok so everytime itachi starts the process and his eye bleeds, minato teleports away and he stops it. itachi is going to need alot of wipes, cuz that means basically he cant successfully use the technique against minato then



Once it is build up, he doesn't need to do it again. Also Itachi can use distractions, feints or just counter hit Minato. He has alot of options.
Minato isn't going to make Itachi waste a shot of Amaterasu unless he waits until the last moment which puts him in the risk of getting killed.



> the words you have used in your explanation of it appearing are travelling towards the target. once its formed it moves with the gaze.
> 
> where does it form please? and if it does form at the target why does the user need to move it with his gaze?
> 
> ...



Maybe you'll understand better with pictures.




I want you to pay attention.

1st picture :
Itachi projects chakra on A.
2nd picture
Amaterasu starts to form
3rd picture
A moves away faster than Itachi's eye can follow, so Amaterasu keeps forming on the afterimage till it dissapears(because Itachi is still focusing on the afterimage).
4th picture(a&b)
As soon as the after image dissapears, Amaterasu moves with Itachi's gaze. It goes to where ever Itachi's eye is focusing on.

In the manga where Sasuke used Amaterasu on A, as soon as the after image dissapeared, Samurai came into Sasuke's focus because he was right behind A. So Amaterasu moved towards him naturally. Sasuke didn't intentionally hit the samurai.

It was the same princible when Itachi was tracking Sasuke with his eyes, Amaterasu was trailing behind Sasuke as Itachi was following Sasuke with his eyes.

This is the best I can do, if this explanation isn't enough still, then there is nothing I can do.


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## Icegaze (Sep 3, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Dude I'm trying not to say anything mean but it is getting harder let me tell you that.
> 
> [x]
> "huh Its not Amaterasu ?"
> ...



So in short am to ignore the panel sequence kishi drew

The panel above I see what you did there has Itachi using Amaterasu

And yes I know it had notninf to do with Itachi using Amaterasu but breaking out with koto

My point is Nagato had the time to analyse how Itachi broke out before he actually caught on fire

Otherwise the author would not draw Itachi using it before Nagato comment it makes no sense

to assume a panel above another in the time line actually happened after .

I get the picture , it's cute .

Refer to my comment on how shunshin so happens to magically be drawn like it appears when we know for a fact it doesn't

As to the fan fic of Itachi only need to build up once and if he doesn't use Amaterasu , he can always at a later time use it . Has never been shown In the manga not once

Scan of build up happening , Amaterasu not being used then Amaterasu at a later time being able to be used with no build up . I'll wait am curious about this one

As to feinting , with clones . I assume minato has no clones . Oh no wait he does , I must also assume his Jutsu isn't based on feinting . Oh no wait it is

2 of his Jutsu are actually set up feints . But Kk .

Amaterasu on bee was an outliner as well as the 4 other situations I pointed out .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So in short am to ignore the panel sequence kishi drew
> 
> The panel above I see what you did there has Itachi using Amaterasu
> 
> ...


They happened simultaneously.
Nagato said "oh I see what you did" just as Itachi was using Amaterasu. Manga is drawn panel by panel, its irrelevant. Those two things have nothing to do with each other.

If you think Nagato had time to stop and think and say a few words by the time Itachi was using Amaterasu, you are doing nothing but reaching. You can't make a connection between those two.



> Refer to my comment on how shunshin so happens to magically be drawn like it appears when we know for a fact it doesn't


Apples and oranges, they have nothing to do with each other. There is manga evidence that tells and shows us how Shunshin works. We know for sure that characters don't teleport when using shunshin.
There is a difference between artistic depiction and actual jutsu mechanics. Its definitely on you if you can't make the distinction. Can't help you with that my friend.



> As to the fan fic of Itachi only need to build up once and if he doesn't use Amaterasu , he can always at a later time use it . Has never been shown In the manga not once
> Scan of build up happening , Amaterasu not being used then Amaterasu at a later time being able to be used with no build up . I'll wait am curious about this one



It happened with Nagato and Cerebrus. Itachi used Amaterasu in rapid succession after building it up once in the beginning.



> As to feinting , with clones . I assume minato has no clones . Oh no wait he does , I must also assume his Jutsu isn't based on feinting . Oh no wait it is
> 
> 2 of his Jutsu are actually set up feints . But Kk



What is your point ? Minato is immune to feints because he can use feints himself ?
Thats just garbage logic for two reasons. First off, just because a character who has shown capability of feinting others doesn't mean they are immune to it. Second off, Itachi has shown actual bunshin feints and overall better battle tactics than Minato. So if it comes down to it, I don't think any sane person would pick Minato over Itachi. But you have probably legit reasons, and honestly, I don't want to know.



> Amaterasu on bee was an outliner as well as the 4 other situations I pointed out .



Lets not go back to that, I've explained everything regarding Amaterasu in detail. It should be easy for you to connect the  dots at this point.


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## Icegaze (Sep 3, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> They happened simultaneously.
> Nagato said "oh I see what you did" just as Itachi was using Amaterasu. Manga is drawn panel by panel, its irrelevant. Those two things have nothing to do with each other.
> 
> If you think Nagato had time to stop and think and say a few words by the time Itachi was using Amaterasu, you are doing nothing but reaching. You can't make a connection between those two.
> ...



You just mentioned Jutsu mechanics
But aren't the Jutsu mechanics described in the data book
And use the word converge

That's all am pointing out here

Fair enough on the reach on Nagato comment



I can take than one on the chin

As you say because Itachi uses feints means he isn't immune to them either so no guarantee really 

Minato has more freedom in terms of feint his his feint involve hirashin which don't require such precise timing 

For example the Kunai used against obito was a clear feint since minato used the Kunai behind obito 
While there were others in the field , which is why he was surprised 

Minato feints always allow hirashin bunshin swap and the likes

Itachi feints require better timing since he has to move into position etc . 

Just my thoughts on that . Minato Jutsu by definition allows easier feints


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## Android (Sep 3, 2016)

Know what i find it retarded ??? 
> Edo Itachi uses Amaterasu .
> His eye bleeds , like real blood 
> When we have seen that Edo's can't bleed


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> You just mentioned Jutsu mechanics
> But aren't the Jutsu mechanics described in the data book
> And use the word converge
> That's all am pointing out here



Do you think Kakashi can move the Kamui barrier once he forms it ? He sure can, thats how he was aiming at Deidara or the rocket that was chasing Chouji. Just because Kamui can move with the users gaze doesn't mean it is shot like a bullet through the eye.

There is not a single panel in the entire manga where we see the flame come through the eye of the user. I'm pretty sure if thats what the author was trying to depict, like you claim it is, then he would actually show it.
Anytime Amaterasu is used, we see the close up of the eye, and the flames on the target. We don't see the flames converging at a random point and then moving towards the target.
The word converge also describes one aspect of Amaterasu. Once the user casts Amaterasu, they can actually move the flames on anywhere they focus their eyes on.

Anyways, if you disagree, then I don't care. I don't have much else to say on this matter, I have my evidence and explanations to back it up.



> As you say because Itachi uses feints means he isn't immune to them either so no guarantee really
> 
> Minato has more freedom in terms of feint his his feint involve hirashin which don't require such precise timing
> 
> ...



I never said Itachi is immune to feints. But if feints become a deciding factor between these two guys, my money is on Itachi. Statistically, he is more likely to succeed with his feints than Minato because Minato never pulled a bunshin feint nor long term planning. The only time he used bunshins was when he was trying to set up a jutsu that required him to use bunshins. He doesn't seem like a bunshin user in general. We know for a fact that he didn't use them against Obito, where he put everything on the line. Nor against A.
We also know that Hiraishin is slower with the bunshins, so it makes sense that bunshins aren't a part of his arsenal since his arsenal revolves around Hiraishin.

And again, being better with feints doesn't mean Itachi can never be feinted or outsmarted, but statistically, looking at what he has pulled off so far, he would likely have better odds against 99.9% of the Narutoverse.

For example if Itachi walks up to Minato and starts casting Amaterasu, and Minato teleports prematurely, Itachi'll realize that he can't just walk up to Minato, use it and expect it to be successful. So he'll work around a plan to get it to land. Use crow bunshin or crows to distract him, block his LOS or other things.

So long story short, I believe Amaterasu can work on high tiers(except the ones who can inherently negate or absorb ninjutsu) if it is executed correctly. Circumstances definitely play a role in its success or failiure.



cctr9 said:


> Know what i find it retarded ???
> > Edo Itachi uses Amaterasu .
> > His eye bleeds , like real blood
> > When we have seen that Edo's can't bleed



Izanami also made him blind, eventhough we know that Edo's can regen every kind of damage.

It seems like ET doesn't negate the backlash of certain jutsu. Gengetsu was also in a weakened state when he was using Joki Boi. Some jutsu still take their toll. It is probably related to their spirit and not just body. ET have immortal bodies, but anything that can inflict damage to their spirit will get the job done.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Sep 3, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Izanami also made him blind, eventhough we know that Edo's can regen every kind of damage.
> 
> It seems like ET doesn't negate the backlash of certain jutsu. Gengetsu was also in a weakened state when he was using Joki Boi. Some jutsu still take their toll. It is probably related to their spirit and not just body. ET have immortal bodies, but anything that can inflict damage to their spirit will get the job done.


Yeah i can swallow the eye losing it's light and all that , also we have seen Edo's like Hashirama and Minato actually feeling exhausted and panting after using a taxing Jutsu , but we have seen Edo's getting their arms cut off , getting bisected , getting nuked , getting smashed , including Itachi himself , and not a single drop of blood fell down .
If you ask me , it's just another fuck up by Kishi 
Like for example :
> Madara and his susanoo getting nuked by 4 Juubidamas
> His Gunbai stays unscratched


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 3, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Yeah i can swallow the eye losing it's light and all that , also we have seen Edo's like Hashirama and Minato actually feeling exhausted and panting after using a taxing Jutsu , but we have seen Edo's getting their arms cut off , getting bisected , getting nuked , getting smashed , including Itachi himself , and not a single drop of blood fell down .
> If you ask me , it's just another fuck up by Kishi
> Like for example :
> > Madara and his susanoo getting nuked by 4 Juubidamas
> > His Gunbai stays unscratched



Yeah some of the things are just overlooked and since the whole concept of ET is bullshit I don't think Kishimoto tried too hard to legitimize it. 
I mean Minato is clearly in pain as he bumps into Gaara : [x] 
And some other times we've seen Edo's stay composed with more intense shit. I think they are more zombie like when they are controlled and they still act in character and on impulse when their consciousness is intact.

But its not that big of a deal from my point of view.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 3, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Do you think Kakashi can move the Kamui barrier once he forms it ? He sure can, thats how he was aiming at Deidara or the rocket that was chasing Chouji. Just because Kamui can move with the users gaze doesn't mean it is shot like a bullet through the eye.



i dont think its shot like  a bullet through the eye. never claimed that. I dont however think it just appears at location either



> There is not a single panel in the entire manga where we see the flame come through the eye of the user. I'm pretty sure if thats what the author was trying to depict, like you claim it is, then he would actually show it.
> Anytime Amaterasu is used, we see the close up of the eye, and the flames on the target. We don't see the flames converging at a random point and then moving towards the target.
> The word converge also describes one aspect of Amaterasu. Once the user casts Amaterasu, they can actually move the flames on anywhere they focus their eyes on.



i never said it comes through the eye of the user. otherwise it would be described that way. all i am saying is it moves towards the target as some panels have suggested and based on the word converge 

dont think we need to go on anymore, however it appears as shown on panel its been reacted to too many times to suggest the people in OP dont react to it and deal with it

Anyways, if you disagree, then I don't care. I don't have much else to say on this matter, I have my evidence and explanations to back it up.





> I never said Itachi is immune to feints. But if feints become a deciding factor between these two guys, my money is on Itachi. Statistically, he is more likely to succeed with his feints than Minato because Minato never pulled a bunshin feint nor long term planning. The only time he used bunshins was when he was trying to set up a jutsu that required him to use bunshins. He doesn't seem like a bunshin user in general. We know for a fact that he didn't use them against Obito, where he put everything on the line. Nor against A.
> We also know that Hiraishin is slower with the bunshins, so it makes sense that bunshins aren't a part of his arsenal since his arsenal revolves around Hiraishin.



feints involve more than using clones though. the very aspect of throwing kunai to surround a target is a feint attack in itself. no he doesnt use bunshin as often as itachi does. But the basis of one of his jutsu is to use clones. jiriaya uses them less often, we saw how his clone feint allowed him to fool rinnegan. and yes hirashin is slower with bunshin. you cant say bunshin isnt part of his arsenal when its a jutsu we have seen him use though. 

hirashin revolves around feinting the enemy though, since like you have said yourself surprise element is a factor



> And again, being better with feints doesn't mean Itachi can never be feinted or outsmarted, but statistically, looking at what he has pulled off so far, he would likely have better odds against 99.9% of the Narutoverse.



and minato outsmarted and casually feinted obito using a technique thats employed subconsciously. again minato has simply had less battles 



> For example if Itachi walks up to Minato and starts casting Amaterasu, and Minato teleports prematurely, Itachi'll realize that he can't just walk up to Minato, use it and expect it to be successful. So he'll work around a plan to get it to land. Use crow bunshin or crows to distract him, block his LOS or other things.
> 
> So long story short, I believe Amaterasu can work on high tiers(except the ones who can inherently negate or absorb ninjutsu) if it is executed correctly. Circumstances definitely play a role in its success or failiure.
> 
> .



i believe it can work on high tiers not listed in the OP. since kishi has already shown similar methods being used to troll amaterasu

so unless its always been incorrectly used in the manga, stands to reason there at least 6 known ways of dealing with it

which is all am highlighting here


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## Saru (Sep 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> How did gengetsu use it then when covered by gaara sand and was about to be sealed



Gengetsu was not trapped in the sense you seem to think. The consistency of his body made Gaara's sand crumble, which is why could still move around through the pyramid. It's also presumably why he could still use Jouki Boi even though he was trapped.



> Jouki boy explosion allowed him to escape the sand funeral without being turned into puddle by the explosion near him ? Or did he magically move from the funeral then have JB explode it even though he was no longer there ?



I'm not sure why you think the explosion would blow the flames off of Gengetsu in the first place. They aren't exactly responsive to efforts to move them.


As for how Gengetsu escaped, either of those explanations are plausible, or Gengetsu could have been turned into a puddle by the explosion and slithered away. How Gengetsu escaped is immaterial to the fact that a sand pyramid and Amaterasu are two very different types of ninjutsu-based predicaments. You're comparing being trapped in a box to being on fire.



> why would gengetsu pain tolerance be less than sasuke who could still use chidori and oro replacement tech ?



Sasuke didn't use Chidori while his entire body was on fire; he used it while his wings were on fire.

As for Oral Rebirth, Orochimaru and by extension Hebi Sasuke have a demonstrably higher pain tolerance. Being sliced in half and repairing oneself through snakes, being punched by Tsunade, tanking Goukakyuu, etc. Gengetsu cannot tank Katon because he doesn't have CS2 wings that are resistant to Katon like Sasuke does.


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## Icegaze (Sep 3, 2016)

Saru said:


> Gengetsu was not trapped in the sense you seem to think. The consistency of his body made Gaara's sand crumble, which is why could still move around through the pyramid. It's also presumably why he could still use Jouki Boi even though he was trapped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Expulsion force far less than that caused by JB has already allowed Nagato to push the flames off him why shouldn't a greater outward explosion do that 

If the explosion turned gengetsu into a puddle which is how he escaped here and blew dense sand off him in the process am still confused as to why slow burning fire that samurai armour can withstand is supposed to hurt gengetsu so much he can't use any Jutsu 

Bee could have easily been acting 

He had no issues escaping


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## Saru (Sep 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Expulsion force far less than that caused by JB has already allowed Nagato to push the flames off him why shouldn't a greater outward explosion do that



What are you talking about? I hope it's not Shinra Tensei, because we've already been down that road: Shinra Tensei repels all ninjutsu; Jouki Boi doesn't. The "size" of Shinra Tensei isn't relevant, as the only time Shinra Tensei has needed to be larger in size or strength is to counteract a large force, like that of the shockwaves created by KN6 Naruto.



> If the explosion turned gengetsu into a puddle which is how he escaped here and blew dense sand off him in the process am still confused as to why slow burning fire that samurai armour can withstand is supposed to hurt gengetsu so much he can't use any Jutsu



Okay. I don't know why you're so confused, though, because samurai armor and people are two different things.



> Bee could have easily been acting
> 
> He had no issues escaping



Killer B / Gyuki wasn't acting. Gyuki's reaction suggests that he wasn't even in on the plan to escape. The Juubi cried out in pain when stricken by the flames of Amaterasu as well, but because it's the Juubi and is obviously far more resistant to Katon than your average shinobi would be, it was able to do something to get out of that predicament.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 3, 2016)

I also have to note that the Amaterasu Itachi used connected with Sasuke's wing first. Which is pretty durable as we know. Sasuke was also outrunning it for a second before it connected, so he had plenty of time to use oral rebirth.

We also know that intense pain or similar disturbances can prevent shinobi from using ninjutsu. White rage and Sasuke.

There are probably only a handful of shinobi who can stay composed enough to use a jutsu while they are being burned alive by Amaterasu, and they are probably people who have insane durability or have their counter measures already prepared for it beforehand.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 3, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Irrelevant, the portal didn't even partially open and it was activated before Base Minato made a single move. He made several, including engineering a Rasengan and entering sage mode before this portal could even open an eye's width, adding in the punted arm traveling 30m as well.
> 
> The same Kamui can now warp an Ash Bone before it moves 1 foot without any enhancement?
> 
> ...



Or what you presented is a glaring inconsistency in Kamui's speed which isn't even the first time we see this and can easily be explained by the fact that Kakashi's vision was deteriorating which greatly hinders your ocular techniques. That's a valid explanation given that Kakashi's Kamui has displayed better feats earlier in the series.

I swear, if you brought up Kakashi's Kamui being incapable of warping Joki Boy, I swear you'd be all onto that, so let's not try to cherry-pick feats that are clearly not consistent with what Kamui can really do.

Kakashi's ability to warp an Ash Bone was due to his enhanced reflexes and the fact that he could use Kamui a its full power due to possessing both eyes. You should really stop bringing it up.


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## Icegaze (Sep 3, 2016)

Saru said:


> What are you talking about? I hope it's not Shinra Tensei, because we've already been down that road: Shinra Tensei repels all ninjutsu; Jouki Boi doesn't. The "size" of Shinra Tensei isn't relevant, as the only time Shinra Tensei has needed to be larger in size or strength is to counteract a large force, like that of the shockwaves created by KN6 Naruto.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Shira tensei is a gravitational force that's it . Shira tensei repels all ninjutsu sure you wanna go down that road ?

No limit fallacy and all 


I maintain these guys troll it considering how often it was in the manga


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## Saru (Sep 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Shira tensei is a gravitational force that's it . Shira tensei repels all ninjutsu sure you wanna go down that road ?
> 
> No limit fallacy and all



Except it's not because I've already referenced the limits imposed upon it by the author, i.e. force.


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## Icegaze (Sep 3, 2016)

Saru said:


> Except it's not because I've already referenced the limits imposed upon it by the author, i.e. force.



Ok moving on 
Gengetsu can't counter it 

Who else can't from the list again

How would minato fair against it 

Curious what you think . I would point out a slower person already aide stepped it


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## Saru (Sep 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Ok moving on
> Gengetsu can't counter it
> 
> Who else can't from the list again
> ...



Just gonna repost this for convenience:



Saru said:


> If Sasuke, Orochimaru, or Kabuto tried to use Oral Rebirth right in front of Itachi, what do you think would happen? I think Itachi would just surround Sasuke and his new body in flames. Therefore, to escape Amaterasu, one needs to not only be able to get rid of the flames, but also be able to get out of the user's line of sight.
> 
> For that reason, I don't think these techniques are viable, because they don't fulfill that secondary requirement of escaping the Amaterasu's user's line of sight:



Gaara, Deidara. Neither of them can escape Itachi/Sasuke's LOS with your strategy.

As for Minato, I distinctly remember disagreeing with you several months ago in regards to Minato being able to warp away after getting hit by Amaterasu. I do think he'd be able to react to it rather well and warp away before it got to him, though.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Ok moving on
> Gengetsu can't counter it
> 
> Who else can't from the list again
> ...



 That's wrong. Minato's not faster than Raikage. Raikage has significantly speed and higher reactions than Minato does. If Minato were placed in the same situation, even if he were faster, he wouldn't have had the sufficient reactions needed to evade Amaterasu before it hit him. But as for the question, yeah, Minato could simply warp away even if the flames tagged him.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 3, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> That's wrong. Minato's not faster than Raikage. Raikage has significantly speed and higher reactions than Minato does. If Minato were placed in the same situation, even if he were faster, he wouldn't have had the sufficient reactions needed to evade Amaterasu before it hit him. But as for the question, yeah, Minato could simply warp away even if the flames tagged him.



Lol despite minato with better reaction feats 

And the fact the that minato is a sensor therefore can react before the jutsu even  happens


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Lol despite minato with better reaction feats
> 
> And the fact the that minato is a sensor therefore can react before the jutsu even  happens



 What better reaction feats? The only reason it looks impressive is because he's using FTG to evade techniques he normally wouldn't be capable of with physical movement.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Lol despite minato with better reaction feats
> 
> And the fact the that minato is a sensor therefore can react before the jutsu even  happens



Minato doesn't have better reaction feats than A though.

Also he isn't a passive sensor, otherwise I'm pretty sure he'd notice a bijuudama stuck inside his body. So unless he is actively looking for it, he can't preempt it.


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## Icegaze (Sep 4, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato doesn't have better reaction feats than A though.
> 
> Also he isn't a passive sensor, otherwise I'm pretty sure he'd notice a bijuudama stuck inside his body. So unless he is actively looking for it, he can't preempt it.



Then I take it sage frogs aren't either not sensing asura path and all

@UchihaX28 
Using hirashin  twice before gai could move 
Since apparently only positive feats aren't outliners


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## Sapherosth (Sep 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> i dont think its shot like  a bullet through the eye. never claimed that. I dont however think it just appears at location either





Then how does it work? I'd like to hear it.


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## Icegaze (Sep 4, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Then how does it work? I'd like to hear it.



Converges at the target as described
Hence why if the target moves the flames will chase said target however the previous flames like against sasuke simply move to the target behind

If it appeared it wouldn't keep moving at the target behind 

A fodder samurai won't see it coming and put his hands up


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## Turrin (Sep 4, 2016)

The fact of the matter is literally every high-tier Amaterasu has gone up against has pulled a counter; or the Amaterasu user hasn't even bothered to use Amaterasu against them (likely because they know it has little chance of working as a one-shot). Amaterasu is a powerful Jutsu, but it's not the if you don't have a specialized count to Amaterasu it's GG type Jutsu that some posters claim it to be; it's more along the lines of FRS; in-fact I take that back Enton which is better than Amaterasu is more along the lines of FRS. Ether way it's a Jutsu that is deadly and can cause a-lot of damage if it lands, but it's not by any means an easy one-shot, it takes strategy to land and even then many Shinobi can survive it albeit at high-Chakra/damage cost.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Then I take it sage frogs aren't either not sensing asura path and all



Thats a retcon. At that point there was no such thing as sage sensing. Neither Jiraiya nor the sage frogs had it.
Hell, Ma used her tounge's sense of smell to locate the chamelon, where as they should have been able to easily pinpoint his location with sage sensing if they had it.


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## Icegaze (Sep 4, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats a retcon. At that point there was no such thing as sage sensing. Neither Jiraiya nor the sage frogs had it.
> Hell, Ma used her tounge's sense of smell to locate the chamelon, where as they should have been able to easily pinpoint his location with sage sensing if they had it.



And minato finger sensing is also a retcon as he wasn't established as a sensor till war arc 

Where we saw he could sense chakra 

Then again he never was put in a situation where he had to sense in battle . All sensors have to activately sense it's not a passive ability .


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## Icegaze (Sep 4, 2016)

Turrin said:


> The fact of the matter is literally every high-tier Amaterasu has gone up against has pulled a counter; or the Amaterasu user hasn't even bothered to use Amaterasu against them (likely because they know it has little chance of working as a one-shot). Amaterasu is a powerful Jutsu, but it's not the if you don't have a specialized count to Amaterasu it's GG type Jutsu that some posters claim it to be; it's more along the lines of FRS; in-fact I take that back Enton which is better than Amaterasu is more along the lines of FRS. Ether way it's a Jutsu that is deadly and can cause a-lot of damage if it lands, but it's not by any means an easy one-shot, it takes strategy to land and even then many Shinobi can survive it albeit at high-Chakra/damage cost.



Fair but for example can we not suggest log replacement will work unless said ninja actually has the speed to evade the Amaterasu user LoS


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> It's odd you say that , A side steps sasuke Amaterasu not one bit surprised
> 
> His arrow gets side stepped he shits himself .
> 
> ...




didnt those fodder samurai put their hands up after being hit by it.


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## Icegaze (Sep 4, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> didnt those fodder samurai put their hands up after being hit by it.



Nope , before  . You even see him with an exclamation mark of sorts as he sees the flames approach him which made him put his hands up


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:
			
		

> Nope , before . You even see him with an exclamation mark of sorts as he sees the flames approach him which made him put his hands up



The flames never spawned on the Samurai, so I wouldn't use that as a feat and it's a severe underestimation of the ability if you truly think a Samurai could react to it regardless. If Raikage could barely move a few inches before the Amaterasu flames from an * Inexperienced * MS user could ignite on his body, I don't expect a Samurai ninja to be capable of raising their arms completely in response to it.

 I do agree that Kabuto can evade it, but he's flat-out reacted to Amaterasu before anyways.


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Nope , before  . You even see him with an exclamation mark of sorts as he sees the flames approach him which made him put his hands up


do you have the chapter i dont remember any of this


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 4, 2016)

Crap, I should've quoted Icegaze.


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## Icegaze (Sep 4, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> do you have the chapter i dont remember any of this



No I don't 
am sure it's already been posted in this thread 
Check grimmjowsensei post


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## Icegaze (Sep 4, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Crap, I should've quoted Icegaze.



You can still do that


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 4, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> The flames never spawned on the Samurai, so I wouldn't use that as a feat and it's a severe underestimation of the ability if you truly think a Samurai could react to it regardless. If Raikage could barely move a few inches before the Amaterasu flames from an * Inexperienced * MS user could ignite on his body, I don't expect a Samurai ninja to be capable of raising their arms completely in response to it.



After rewatching A dodge amaterasu in both anime and manga chapter 463 theres no way kabuto can dodge it. V2 raikage had to use his shunshin as well to dodge amaterasu, being V2 with reactions as great as minato wasnt enough. If thats what it takes no under that level of speed/reflexes can do it. Also A only managed to dodge amaterasu by a few centimeters, it almost hit him. If sasuke was more experienced and closer it wouldve hit

I do want to see the pages where these samurais reacted to it because i didnt see any of that, the opposite actually


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> No I don't
> am sure it's already been posted in this thread
> Check grimmjowsensei post


look at chapter 463 page 13 you can see the samurai didnt react at all


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## Icegaze (Sep 4, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> look at chapter 463 page 13 you can see the samurai didnt react at all



I suggest you look again
Notice where his hands are before the flames reach him 

Then look top left on his head there is some sort of exclamation mark indicating reaction , by then his hands are up


----------



## UchihaX28 (Sep 4, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> After rewatching A dodge amaterasu in both anime and manga chapter 463 theres no way kabuto can dodge it. V2 raikage had to use his shunshin as well to dodge amaterasu, being V2 with reactions as great as minato wasnt enough. If thats what it takes no under that level of speed/reflexes can do it. Also A only managed to dodge amaterasu by a few centimeters, it almost hit him. If sasuke was more experienced and closer it wouldve hit
> 
> I do want to see the pages where these samurais reacted to it because i didnt see any of that, the opposite actually



Raikage can't preempt the technique whereas DSM Kabuto can which is why he can be slower and still react to the technique.

The Samurai rose his arms before the flames engulfed him completely, but the flames never spawned on his body at all which made it easier to anticipate. Under normal circumstances, the flames spawn onto its target instantaneously unless the user misses its target. Considering it was an inescapable technique and Raikage's Shunshin barely evaded it, I wouldn't expect Samurais to raise their arms in response to it.

Not only are Raikage's reaction speed and body movement significantly higher than the Samurais, but Raikage's Shunshin speed is even higher than his own body movement (strike speed), so there's absolutely no way that the Samurai can even react to the flames in the first place.

In simpler terms:
V2 Raikage Shunshin > Amaterasu > V2 Raikage body speed > Samura's body speed

There's absolutely no logical explanation to justify a Samurai being capable of reacting to the technique under normal circumstances. It was highly situational. The only reason he managed to do so is because the flames traveled like a projectile as the Samurai wasn't Sasuke's original target, Raikage was, and when it missed its mark, it continued to travel until there was nowhere left to go.

As for DSM Kabuto reacting to Amaterasu:


As explained before, the reason DSM Kabuto did what he did was because he's a Top Tier Sage whose sensing capabilities enabled him to preempt the flames long before it actually spawned at his location. Because of that, he can still react to it despite being slower than V2 Raikage.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I suggest you look again
> Notice where his hands are before the flames reach him
> 
> Then look top left on his head there is some sort of exclamation mark indicating reaction , by then his hands are up



 The Samurai's feat was highly situational though. Don't tell me you actually believe a Samurai can raise his arms in response to Amaterasu? Not even Obito could do so and he anticipated the flames before they ignited on him.


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> The Samurai's feat was highly situational though. Don't tell me you actually believe a Samurai can raise his arms in response to Amaterasu? Not even Obito could do so and he anticipated the flames before they ignited on him.



Obito ? That was a surprise attack he didn't even know sasuke had that sealed in him

If you mean juubito he did have his arms up and he trolled it 

And yes I believe the samurai can raise his arms up since he did 

Everyone has always seen Amaterasu coming .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> And minato finger sensing is also a retcon as he wasn't established as a sensor till war arc
> 
> Where we saw he could sense chakra
> 
> Then again he never was put in a situation where he had to sense in battle . All sensors have to activately sense it's not a passive ability .



Doesn't matter.
Minato is not a passive sensor. His best sensing feat is vaguely sensing Naruto's presence.
He has no in combat sensing feats. Granting him feats of SM users and such is a fallacy.

Even a sensor like Karin needs to stop and concentrate to pinpoint the person she is looking for, or she needs to double check if she is under genjutsu, meaning she isn't constantly aware of whats going on around her with chakra sensing alone.


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Doesn't matter.
> Minato is not a passive sensor. His best sensing feat is vaguely sensing Naruto's presence.
> He has no in combat sensing feats. Granting him feats of SM users and such is a fallacy.
> 
> Even a sensor like Karin needs to stop and concentrate to pinpoint the person she is looking for, or she needs to double check if she is under genjutsu, meaning she isn't constantly aware of whats going on around her with chakra sensing alone.



Means no sensor is actively sensing then

Or are you saying only senjutsu users are passive sensors ?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Means no sensor is actively sensing then
> 
> Or are you saying only senjutsu users are passive sensors ?



I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that Karin is a better sensor than Minato and even she isn't fully aware of whats going on around her unless she is specifically concentrating on it.

We know for sure that Senjutsu users are more like passive sensors, at least within a certain range. 
Muu seemed to be also a passive sensor, considering he casually dodged Naruto closing in from behind when he wasn't paying any attention.


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that Karin is a better sensor than Minato and even she isn't fully aware of whats going on around her unless she is specifically concentrating on it.
> 
> We know for sure that Senjutsu users are more like passive sensors, at least within a certain range.
> Muu seemed to be also a passive sensor, considering he casually dodged Naruto closing in from behind when he wasn't paying any attention.



Didn't minato do that against obito 
He had no idea obito was behind him and before obito could even grab him he attacked obito 

Wouldn't that be quite akin to what Muu did ?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Didn't minato do that against obito
> He had no idea obito was behind him and before obito could even grab him he attacked obito
> 
> Wouldn't that be quite akin to what Muu did ?



Not necessarily, I gave Muu as an example solely because Onoki attributed that feat to him being a sensor.

We know for a fact that Itachi is not a sensor but we've seen him feel the presence of Naruto in the forest and react to his bunshins coming from his back when they were talking.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Obito ? That was a surprise attack he didn't even know sasuke had that sealed in him
> 
> If you mean juubito he did have his arms up and he trolled it
> 
> ...



 No they haven't.

 The Samurai's was situational for the sole fact that Amaterasu missed Raikage and so, when it did travel towards the Samurai, it was merely the projectile. A lot of Amaterasu's effectiveness comes from spawning on its target instantaneously. Most of that was lost against the Samurai. Honestly, if V2 Raikage's Shunshin narrowly escaped MS Sasuke's Amaterasu, why would expect a Samurai to raise his arm up? With his inferior reaction time, he wouldn't even be capable of moving at all given that Raikage barely reacted in time.

 And regardless, Obito did anticipate Amaterasu:



 Even before the flames spawned on his shoulder yet he couldn't physically react to it at all. Why would I expect a Samurai to be capable of doing so when Obito couldn't?


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Not necessarily, I gave Muu as an example solely because Onoki attributed that feat to him being a sensor.
> 
> We know for a fact that Itachi is not a sensor but we've seen him feel the presence of Naruto in the forest and react to his bunshins coming from his back when they were talking.



We also know for a fact that unlike Itachi minato had no idea obito was there or anything he only saw kyuubi

Itachi was fighting naruto who he knows uses clones who he also knows a good way to get behind sharingan is to use clones 

In fact naruto even spells out his move , he says it's not 1 on 1 here and so on 

I wouldn't equate the 2

What minato did is no different to what Muu did except well it's minato


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> No they haven't.
> 
> The Samurai's was situational for the sole fact that Amaterasu missed Raikage and so, when it did travel towards the Samurai, it was merely the projectile. A lot of Amaterasu's effectiveness comes from spawning on its target instantaneously. Most of that was lost against the Samurai. Honestly, if V2 Raikage's Shunshin narrowly escaped MS Sasuke's Amaterasu, why would expect a Samurai to raise his arm up? With his inferior reaction time, he wouldn't even be capable of moving at all given that Raikage barely reacted in time.
> 
> ...



Because Hachibi could move its tail 
Sasuke could start running 

I see no reason why the samurai is an outliner 

Obito in that scan you showed is the outliner if anything 

Not only was he surprised by the fact that well sasuke at the time didn't have MS 

It wasn't even in battle 

That's not different to hyping it when it hit Madara from behind


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> We also know for a fact that unlike Itachi minato had no idea obito was there or anything he only saw kyuubi
> 
> Itachi was fighting naruto who he knows uses clones who he also knows a good way to get behind sharingan is to use clones
> 
> ...



ran out of steam

Ok different example.

I think this is more satisfying. 
They had no idea where the other guy was, and Shikamaru sensed him approach from behind.


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ran out of steam
> 
> Ok different example.
> 
> ...



Kakuzu moved , I.e footsteps prolly not quiet
Obito appeared behind minato
Can't really compare

You asked for a feat from minato , looks just like Muu feat

Shikamaru feat was also abit less comparable as hidan said you got the wrong one, I.e watch your back 

No such warning was given to minato 

If that isn't a clue I don't know

I guess you can hunt for feats all you like . Minato feat proves he can sense what's behind him


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Kakuzu moved , I.e footsteps prolly not quiet
> Obito appeared behind minato
> Can't really compare
> 
> ...



They are ninja, they can be extremely quiet. Kakashi sneaked in on Kakauzu from behind, and he surely didn't teleport.
I think you are just cherry picking. So you'll force me to cherry pick here.

Obito appeared behind Minato but still tried to reach out with his arm to hold him down. Minato could have heard his clothing. Minato may have reacted to the sound, change of air or the smell.


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> They are ninja, they can be extremely quiet. Kakashi sneaked in on Kakauzu from behind, and he surely didn't teleport.
> I think you are just cherry picking. So you'll force me to cherry pick here.
> 
> Obito appeared behind Minato but still tried to reach out with his arm to hold him down. Minato could have heard his clothing. Minato may have reacted to the sound, change of air or the smell.



I guess Muu did the same 
fair enough 
Fuu a sensor reacted to obito the exact same way minato did 

ran out of steam

Comparing obito ability to get behind you with kamui to what other people have been doing which we know don't require you to be a sensor is you simply trying to hard here 

ran out of steam

Or maybe it wasn't fuu chakra sensing ability but obito perfume which gave him away


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Because Hachibi could move its tail
> Sasuke could start running
> 
> I see no reason why the samurai is an outliner
> ...



 Maybe because Amaterasu was used from a Severely Weakened and Shit MS user? 

 Or we can say that the Hachibi's feat is an outlier because V2 Raikage's Shunshin * narrowly * escaped Amaterasu. No offense, but this is a ridiculous assertion though. If Samurai can physically react to Amaterasu, then that would imply that most Kage Level ninja can simply counter Amaterasu through forming a seal. Doesn't seem likely honestly. Regardless of what you think, the Samurai's reaction speed cannot be as fast as V2 Raikage's Shunshin. That's not even possible.

 It doesn't matter if it was in battle. Obito clearly noticed Sasuke's Mangekyo, can sense its chakra build-up, and anticipated it before the flames ignited on his body. 

 Madara didn't have that opportunity because he was clearly blindsided and hadn't even considered Sasuke at that point which isn't the case with Obito.


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Maybe because Amaterasu was used from a Severely Weakened and Shit MS user?
> 
> Or we can say that the Hachibi's feat is an outlier because V2 Raikage's Shunshin * narrowly * escaped Amaterasu. No offense, but this is a ridiculous assertion though. If Samurai can physically react to Amaterasu, then that would imply that most Kage Level ninja can simply counter Amaterasu through forming a seal. Doesn't seem likely honestly. Regardless of what you think, the Samurai's reaction speed cannot be as fast as V2 Raikage's Shunshin. That's not even possible.
> 
> ...



Bee feat would be an outliner if sasuke while running couldn't look behind himself and see Amaterasu chasing him 

Bee feat would be an outliner if not for the samurai 

Also if not for juubito being able to casually block it 

Or base naruto being able to see it in time to use kn1 cloak

Or Danzo being able to react to it 

And yes most kage level ninja can react to Amaterasu 

That's the point am making , however not all have a viable defence nor the ability to leave an Ms user Los


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I guess Muu did the same
> fair enough
> Fuu a sensor reacted to obito the exact same way minato did
> 
> ...



Or maybe Fuu was actively trying to sense Obito's presence ?


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## Icegaze (Sep 6, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Or maybe Fuu was actively trying to sense Obito's presence ?



You mean like Muu was ?
or maybe sensors can just sense what's around them , perhaps just maybe that's how it works

Minato wasn't actively looking for naruto when he noticed naruto chakra 

Ever found it strange that hirashin users are sensors 

Would be odd to teleport into an area if you don't know the number of enemies etc 

In any case we got a feat of minato reacting to a blind side attack 

So element of surprise really may not be all that effective

Not many moves are quicker than a surprise point blank kamui


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> You mean like Muu was ?
> or maybe sensors can just sense what's around them , perhaps just maybe that's how it works
> 
> Minato wasn't actively looking for naruto when he noticed naruto chakra
> ...



Imagine for a second that you are Fu. You are a sensor, and Obito dissapears. 
What do you do ? You obviously try to use your sensing to locate him or anticipate his re-apperance. 
You should stop cherry picking.

As for surprise Kamui, Minato attacked first as Obito was reaching out to him. And Obito used Kamui after he grabbed Minato. Minato was already fully alert at that point. 
Obito's appereance can be considered an ambush. Kamui wasn't though.

And my only reasoning here is that Minato wasn't able to sense the Bijuudama Obito stuck in his arm. And he had KCM at that point. You can argue that he wasn't accustomed to KCM, but that just shows that he isn't constantly sensing and is aware of whats going around him.


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## Icegaze (Sep 6, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Imagine for a second that you are Fu. You are a sensor, and Obito dissapears.
> What do you do ? You obviously try to use your sensing to locate him or anticipate his re-apperance.
> You should stop cherry picking.
> 
> ...



Yes but how many times have sensors ability to sense been by passed by the fact that they themselves simply can't react in time

C has no chance of sensing A attack him before A kills him for example 

Minato didn't detect it , till he actually had finished teleporting and got to safety 

It simply happened too fast for him . That's not the same as being unable to sense 

So no I won't argue its due to KCm that's a week excuse 

He simply couldn't react to it . Sensors aren't infaiable 

Same reason he didn't react to Madara counter at all . 

Sensor doesn't equal avoid all things , all it does is detect chakra 

Same way sharingan can be circumvented if the attacker is simply much faster . Sensing isn't any different 

Muu is a sensor why didn't he sense naruto was going to extend his arm and move out the way , should have been a chakra build up there no ?

juubito trolled minato simple as that . 

But then again I might as well say juubito could easily counter Amaterasu yet in your books it doesn't Diminsh your impression of Amaterasu appearing instantly 

Why is Minato sensing somehow less valid by the fact that he simply got outsped?


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Or what you presented is a glaring inconsistency in Kamui's speed which isn't even the first time we see this and can easily be explained by the fact that Kakashi's vision was deteriorating which greatly hinders your ocular techniques. That's a valid explanation given that Kakashi's Kamui has displayed better feats earlier in the series.
> 
> I swear, if you brought up Kakashi's Kamui being incapable of warping Joki Boy, I swear you'd be all onto that, so let's not try to cherry-pick feats that are clearly not consistent with what Kamui can really do.
> 
> Kakashi's ability to warp an Ash Bone was due to his enhanced reflexes and the fact that he could use Kamui a its full power due to possessing both eyes. You should really stop bringing it up.





UchihaX28 said:


> Or what you presented is a glaring inconsistency in Kamui's speed which isn't even the first time we see this and can easily be explained by the fact that Kakashi's vision was deteriorating which greatly hinders your ocular techniques. That's a valid explanation given that Kakashi's Kamui has displayed better feats earlier in the series.
> 
> I swear, if you brought up Kakashi's Kamui being incapable of warping Joki Boy, I swear you'd be all onto that, so let's not try to cherry-pick feats that are clearly not consistent with what Kamui can really do.
> 
> Kakashi's ability to warp an Ash Bone was due to his enhanced reflexes and the fact that he could use Kamui a its full power due to possessing both eyes. You should really stop bringing it up.


The vision fading had no affect on his ability to warp through Gudodama before Gai made his final attack. Regardless, it's a comical notion. Whether or not you can see doesn't affect the activation or completion speed of a technique, all it does is affect it's accuracy. Sasuke was firing Susano Arrows at Kakashi with close to 10% vision and it did not affect the speed of the technique considering he only had time to counter with Kamui.

Your baseless claims mean nothing. Just because you say the one Kamui is the same speed as double Kamui doesn't make it any more true than saying 2+2=7.

Your claims are illogical and inconsistent with what was shown by Obito and the manga. Double Kamui speed is the use of both eyes simultaneously, not one eye. There is absolutely nothing that supports Kakashi could activate and complete a Kamui warping before one of the fastest techniques in the manga could move 1 foot. The only explanation is the story breaking Senjutsu Chakra enhanced the speed of his technique. Increased reactions mean absolutely nothing when the technique itself has never proven capable of warping anything close to the speed of Ash Bones prior to Senjutsu inflation.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Yes but how many times have sensors ability to sense been by passed by the fact that they themselves simply can't react in time
> 
> C has no chance of sensing A attack him before A kills him for example
> 
> ...



Sticking a Bijuudama in his arm has nothing to do with outspeeding him. Minato teleported back and had no idea what was going on and he only noticed it when Obito pointed out. Bijuudama isn't something that can go under the radar. It is a high amount of concentrated chakra. 

What you are describing is totally different, and it only applies to Juubito ripping his arm off.


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## Icegaze (Sep 6, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sticking a Bijuudama in his arm has nothing to do with outspeeding him. Minato teleported back and had no idea what was going on and he only noticed it when Obito pointed out. Bijuudama isn't something that can go under the radar. It is a high amount of concentrated chakra.
> 
> What you are describing is totally different, and it only applies to Juubito ripping his arm off.



Truth seeker not bijiudama and it has everything to do with outspeeding him. He even shows surprise when juubito ripped his arm off 

Minato said I got away , then juubito pointed it out 

If one can say you have to be looking for chakra to sense or pick it up in any fashion 

One would think it also has to do with your own reactions , he was more focused on getting away than anything 

So yeah minato has to be aware of what's happening to sense it . Or at least deal with it properly 

That's all it is . So who is a better sensor who you feel would have noticed such immediately then . Just curious 

Why didn't Muu notice when A suddenly appeared and kicked him . I wonder


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Truth seeker not bijiudama and it has everything to do with outspeeding him. He even shows surprise when juubito ripped his arm off
> 
> Minato said I got away , then juubito pointed it out
> 
> ...



Again, Minato clearly saw Juubito retaliate : Link removed
"shit"
But he couldn't react in time.

Then he comes back and says "I'm fine."
Link removed
Meaning he had no idea he was carrying a high concentrated Juubi chakra on him.

So the difference is, he noticed Juubi's attack but couldn't react. On the other hand, didn't even notice the TSB.

If you still think he couldn't "sense it in time." Then you have to acknowledge that Minato's chakra sensing is much slower than his other sensory organs, like his eyes.
Which still comes down to the same thing, he can't react to Amaterasu with sensing alone.


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## Icegaze (Sep 6, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Again, Minato clearly saw Juubito retaliate : Link removed
> "shit"
> But he couldn't react in time.
> 
> ...



Well considering Danzo can react to the build up
And killer bee
And well everyone else
One would think even if he wasn't a sensor he would still react

Since you know as you said there is a build up initially

Which means from then on he never has a reason to not try to get behind Itachi

A who is a simpleton figured out that much

From Ms shown notice his attacks were aimed to get around Ms .

So honestly someone faster who realises there is a build , would see Ms therefore can pick up on that helped by being a sensor . Considering Nagato as well noticed the build up

Honestly not sure why we going in circles

Itachi would have to perfect feint for it to hope to land . As for it landing and somehow there being w chemical reaction which prevents minato from leaving it behind you are alone in that thought process

TSB eradicates things on contact , minato could carry that away intentionally , I say so because when he moved juubito he left them behind on purpose . Remember TSB exceeds jinton which exceeds Amaterasu a mere KKG. If hirashin can allow minato to basically ignore the effects of TSB by carrying it away . Not sure what Amaterasu does 

Just my thought though, I understand you will argue it. But oh well , nothing displayed in my opinion makes Amaterasu any more than a waste of time against minato


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Well considering Danzo can react to the build up
> And killer bee
> And well everyone else
> One would think even if he wasn't a sensor he would still react
> ...



I agreed that he can react to the build up. Then you started with Minato preempting it by sensing. And I said there is no evidence that he has his sensing constantly active, nor he has actual feats of doing something similar.  Thats what we were debating.



> Itachi would have to perfect feint for it to hope to land . As for it landing and somehow there being w chemical reaction which prevents minato from leaving it behind you are alone in that thought process


Common sense is by my side so its fine. Minato does not have any control over taking or leaving the flames, thus he can't simply choose to leave them behind.



> TSB eradicates things on contact , minato could carry that away intentionally , I say so because when he moved juubito he left them behind on purpose . Remember TSB exceeds jinton which exceeds Amaterasu a mere KKG. If hirashin can allow minato to basically ignore the effects of TSB by carrying it away . Not sure what Amaterasu does


I don't understand what you re trying to say.



> Just my thought though, I understand you will argue it. But oh well , nothing displayed in my opinion makes Amaterasu any more than a waste of time against minato



Thats a gross underestimation of Itachi and the technique, and honestly it isn't based on any manga evidence so I surely can't agree with that.

And at the very worst case, Itachi can use it to burn Minato's marks or restrict the area he operates in thus taking away from his mobility. Amaterasu definitely factors in one way or the other.


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## Icegaze (Sep 6, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I agreed that he can react to the build up. Then you started with Minato preempting it by sensing. And I said there is no evidence that he has his sensing constantly active, nor he has actual feats of doing something similar.  Thats what we were debating.
> 
> 
> Common sense is by my side so its fine. Minato does not have any control over taking or leaving the flames, thus he can't simply choose to leave them behind.
> ...



Waste Amaterasu on Kunai that minato can just throw again 

 

More detrimental to itachi than it is to minato 

Well I say that because you can scream plot or not but Amaterasu has always been countered 

I am saying TSB affects  the victim a shit ton quicker than Amaterasu , minato could carry it away without it drilling a hole in him despite it being omyoton which exceeds jinton

Being able to take them away so quick they can't affect him , kind of makes me think leaving flames behind from a far less powerful element isn't a problem

I mean we have already seen him jump away from being dragged into a dimension . How this magic flame which you have even said takes time to burn , is somehow impossible to leave behind baffles me  entirely . 

I mean how can he teleport sasuke and naruto while they are being held by juubito and not take juubito with them . There is very direct contact there , his statement was very simple I can teleport anything linked to my chakra . Won't that imply things that aren't linked that he is aware of , he can leave behind ? 

Hard to not be aware of flames everyone else who has ever faced the technique has been aware of


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 6, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> The vision fading had no affect on his ability to warp through Gudodama before Gai made his final attack. Regardless, it's a comical notion. Whether or not you can see doesn't affect the activation or completion speed of a technique, all it does is affect it's accuracy. Sasuke was firing Susano Arrows at Kakashi with close to 10% vision and it did not affect the speed of the technique considering he only had time to counter with Kamui.



That was only one in-universe explanation, it wasn't the basis of my argument. If Kakashi's feat was literally far slower than it should've been capable of, we should just chalk it up as being an inconsistency. There's really no need to over-complicate things and cherry-pick one example specifically. At the end of the day, Kakashi mastered the Dojutsu, was commended by Madara, and the Databook only makes a distinction between the range Kakashi and Obito's Kamui can be used, not its speed. There's literally no difference.



> Your baseless claims mean nothing. Just because you say the one Kamui is the same speed as double Kamui doesn't make it any more true than saying 2+2=7.



Having both eyes enables you to use its full power. You don't have to use both techniques simultaneously. The only reason Kakashi and Obito had to was because each only had a possession of one eye and so using it was the equivalent of a DMS user only utilizing one of its techniques.



> *Your claims are illogical and inconsistent with what was shown by Obito and the manga. Double Kamui speed is the use of both eyes simultaneously, not one eye*. There is absolutely nothing that supports Kakashi could activate and complete a Kamui warping before one of the fastest techniques in the manga could move 1 foot. The only explanation is the story breaking Senjutsu Chakra enhanced the speed of his technique. *Increased reactions mean absolutely nothing when the technique itself has never proven capable of warping anything close to the speed of Ash Bones prior to Senjutsu inflation.*



Already explained it.

And great, then it means it's more logical that it was capable of doing so because Kakashi possessed both eye powers. The only thing Rikudou Chakra was stated to provide Kakashi was his ability to infuse his Susano'o with Kamui's properties and * indirectly * stated that Rikudou's Chakra enhanced his ability to warp objects in terms of size. Nothing you're saying is suggested at all.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> That was only one in-universe explanation, it wasn't the basis of my argument. If Kakashi's feat was literally far slower than it should've been capable of, we should just chalk it up as being an inconsistency. There's really no need to over-complicate things and cherry-pick one example specifically. At the end of the day, Kakashi mastered the Dojutsu, was commended by Madara, and the Databook only makes a distinction between the range Kakashi and Obito's Kamui can be used, not its speed. There's literally no difference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The range is irrelevant, what's important is the fact they're two different techniques from two different eyes. Kakashi's Kamui, the left eye, is it's own Kamui. Obito's Kamui, the right eye (intangibility), is it's own Kamui. The only similarity they share is they both can teleport what they touch or themselves through the eye like a reverse suction. When you have both eyes you can use this on yourself, just as Obito did:


Which doubles the speed of Kamui. 

The ranged warphole (Kakashi's eye), the intangible eye (Obito's eye) aren't doubled in speed. They are enhanced with Senjutsu and drastically increased in speed individually.

Nothing in the entire manga has ever suggested the singular eye techniques doubled in speed because the same user happens to possess the completely separate Kamui ability in the opposing eye.

Double Kamui speed became a thing because both eyes were warping the same target at the same time, through two different users. A single user can only warp himself and what he is touching at double the speed, because the right eye cannot warp ranged targets.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 7, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Waste Amaterasu on Kunai that minato can just throw again
> 
> 
> More detrimental to itachi than it is to minato


A tiny spec of Amaterasu can get the job done, so it won't be as detrimental. And its totally worth it if it is done at a critical point restricting Minato's movement.



> Well I say that because you can scream plot or not but Amaterasu has always been countered


Not always. And it was only countered under specific circumstances by specific sets of skill.
You can't make a generalization like that.



> I am saying TSB affects  the victim a shit ton quicker than Amaterasu , minato could carry it away without it drilling a hole in him despite it being omyoton which exceeds jinton


Tobirama also grabbed it and his hand didn't disintegrate : Link removed
I'd love to see him grab Amaterasu like that.
Its pretty obvious that it has nothing to do with Minato's durability.



> Being able to take them away so quick they can't affect him , kind of makes me think leaving flames behind from a far less powerful element isn't a problem


Apples and oranges. TSB and Amaterasu have nothing in common. Their feats aren't interchangable.



> I mean we have already seen him jump away from being dragged into a dimension . How this magic flame which you have even said takes time to burn , is somehow impossible to leave behind baffles me  entirely .



Apples and oranges. Being sucked into a dimension and Amaterasu have nothing in common.
I absolultey have no idea why you even bring that up.



> I mean how can he teleport sasuke and naruto while they are being held by juubito and not take juubito with them . There is very direct contact there , his statement was very simple I can teleport anything linked to my chakra . Won't that imply things that aren't linked that he is aware of , he can leave behind ?



Again, apples and oranges. They have nothing to do with each other.
I think the problem here is that you have no idea what burning is.

Burning is a chemical process. Lets say you are set on fire and start burning, the heat of the flames start a chemical process in your body.
There is a huge difference between that and letting go of something you have in your hand.

I think you need to do some research to better comprehend this concept. Otherwise it seems like we'll be stuck in this loop forever with me telling you that Amaterasu is different than physicaly holding on to something and you not getting it.



> Hard to not be aware of flames everyone else who has ever faced the technique has been aware of



It has nothing to do with being aware of or not. Minato can't stop the chemical process in his body from taking place when he is set on fire.
Its not as simple as "oh I don't like this excessive heat fucking up my molecules so lets leave that behind."


edit :

I found a site which it explains the whole process very briefly. Even a child can understand this :

This may help.


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