# Narutoverse Vs. Avatarverse



## thrawnforever (Nov 18, 2008)

The Narutoverse will fight the Avatarverse in a battle with full preparations. 
The Avatarverse has all their past avatars fighting at the same time.


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 18, 2008)

Azula kills them all because she's awesome like that.


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## BAD BD (Nov 18, 2008)

Kisame         solos.


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## Clay Man Gumby (Nov 18, 2008)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Azula kills them all because she's awesome like that.




Azula, much like Katara, is the very opposite of awesome.


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## Zetta (Nov 18, 2008)

This has never been done before...

And is SO not a banned match...


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 18, 2008)

Clay Man Gumby said:


> Azula, much like Katara, is the very opposite of awesome.



Posted breakdown Azula is on the same level of suck as Katara.

Pre-breakdown she rocks. 



> And is SO not a banned match...



It actually isn't banned anymore. ^_^


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## Clay Man Gumby (Nov 18, 2008)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Posted breakdown Azula is on the same level of suck as Katara.
> 
> Pre-breakdown she rocks.



I can agree with this.


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## Ryuk (Nov 18, 2008)

Banned match is banned .


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## Azure Flame Fright (Nov 18, 2008)

We have like 100 Avatars that can turn into mountain range busting Avatar state monsters, how does Narutoverse stand a chance?


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## thrawnforever (Nov 18, 2008)

All of you are currently online. Who GAve ME NEGATIVE REP? Anyway, the Narutoverse stands a chance against the Avatarverse because of the Akatsuki, the different kyuubi, and they also have Jiraiya's books to distract Sokka and the rest of the guys.


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 18, 2008)

Akatsuki are going to do what against hundreds of Avatars throwing mountains at them?


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## Marth6789 (Nov 18, 2008)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Akatsuki are going to do what against hundreds of Avatars throwing mountains at them?



Hmm... Call out the bijuu's?
Hachibi alone is enough to take down any avatar unless you want to provide feats for the avatars taking blasts of that magnitude.


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## thrawnforever (Nov 18, 2008)

What did Aang do to the firelord? 
He spared his life!
Wont the past Avatars do the same thing?


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 18, 2008)

> What did Aang do to the firelord?
> He spared his life!
> Wont the past Avatars do the same thing?


The past Avatars all advised Aang to kill the crap out of Ozai....


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## Marth6789 (Nov 18, 2008)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Akatsuki are going to do what against hundreds of Avatars throwing mountains at them?



Kakashi water vortex jutsu has water manipulation far outside of the regular waterbenders, and even in most cases "masters"


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## Azure Flame Fright (Nov 18, 2008)

thrawnforever said:


> What did Aang do to the firelord?
> He spared his life!
> Wont the past Avatars do the same thing?



Remember how all the past Avatars were telling Aang to kill him?


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## thrawnforever (Nov 18, 2008)

Its easier to tell someone to do something than to do it yourself.


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## Azure Flame Fright (Nov 18, 2008)

Wrong, I could tell someone to neg you and it'd be easier than actually doing it myself.


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 18, 2008)

Lacking the ability to do it themselves as they were, being dead and all, their only option was to tell Aang to do it.


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## thrawnforever (Nov 18, 2008)

Then you're an exemption, oh kind Azure Flame Kite sir.


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 18, 2008)

Ozai's only crime was attempted genocide. Akatsuki by and large are guilty of the crime of sucking, a far worse crime. ^_^

Morals take a backseat to necessity, as the previous Avatars advised Aang.

Killing someone is wrong, but it's better to kill Ozai than let him burn the Earth Kingdom to the ground.


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## thrawnforever (Nov 18, 2008)

Anyway, if you want to go back to the topic, Narutoverse has a chance.


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## mykel23 (Nov 18, 2008)

Avatarverse would pwnstomp Narutoverse.


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## thrawnforever (Nov 18, 2008)

But it still does not prove that the Narutoverse loses.

If oone avatar at a time, would the narutoverse stand a chance?


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## mykel23 (Nov 18, 2008)

Haha, I jsut read the OP. You said that all past avatars are fighting with them at the same time. It's even more pwnstomp with ALL PAST AVATARS.


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## BAD BD (Nov 18, 2008)

I don't think they are that fast...

In b4 lightning bullshit.


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## Zoidberg (Nov 18, 2008)

Good lord... the Master benders alone(Pakku, Bumi, the Dai Li....) are capable of elemental feats that would give the Sannin a run for their money. Add to that every Avatar, who can casually split continents, create massive tidal waves, shred everything with tornados, and burn gigantic hectares of land....

Plus there's also the tech advantage for Avatarverse, but with all the Avatars, it doesn't really matter that much.


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## HumanWine (Nov 18, 2008)

I stand firmly behind the statement "The Avatarverse has lightning dodgers"


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## thrawnforever (Nov 18, 2008)

Are we allowed to change the rules making it one avatar only?


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 18, 2008)

Yes, but it is discouraged and generally considered bad form.


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## icemaster143 (Nov 18, 2008)

Narutoverse stomps.

With Sasuke and Madara's ability to set the avatars on fire by looking at them. Pein’s abilities like lasers and homing rockets. Summons that can use Jutsu's on a massive scale. Ninjas that have invisibility Jutsu like in Kakashi Gaiden. Bloodline freaks like Kimi. Ninja's having the ability to create the element that they need at any time unlike Avatar benders. Deidara's city busting attacks. Gaara being able to crush a city with sand. Finally the Immortal Biju.

Hell killer bee alone could kill most every avatar ever shown.


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## Narcissus (Nov 18, 2008)

Every past Avatar, you say?  Good sir, I would make some remark on your intellect, but I could get a flamebait offense for that, so I shall restrain myself.

It has been debated that Aang alone would be a major threat to the Narutoverse, so placing every single Avatar that ever existed is a complete rape, and utter fail.

Combined with all these Avatars are bloodbenders and lightning shooters, and Iroh, who redirected a real lightning bolt, something Itachi could not do.  You may wanna think before making another thread, please, in order to save your rep points.


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## Zetta (Nov 19, 2008)

thrawnforever said:


> What did Aang do to the firelord?
> He spared his life!
> Wont the past Avatars do the same thing?


Bloodlust.



Marth6789 said:


> Kakashi water vortex jutsu has water manipulation far outside of the regular waterbenders, and even in most cases "masters"


Hahahahahahahahaha.

No.



thrawnforever said:


> Sorry for complaining. Plese stop giving me neg rep. Please? PLEASE???


No.



icemaster143 said:


> Narutoverse stomps.
> 
> With Sasuke and Madara's ability to set the avatars on fire by looking at them. Pein’s abilities like lasers and homing rockets. Summons that can use Jutsu's on a massive scale. Ninjas that have invisibility Jutsu like in Kakashi Gaiden. Bloodline freaks like Kimi. Ninja's having the ability to create the element that they need at any time unlike Avatar benders. Deidara's city busting attacks. Gaara being able to crush a city with sand. Finally the Immortal Biju.
> 
> Hell killer bee alone could kill most every avatar ever shown.


Get back to the Naruto Battledome, you redshirt.


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## BAD BD (Nov 19, 2008)

Stroev said:


> Only the above mentioned would make it less of a rape than it is.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _My own e-life_
> ...



My e-cock is fucking huge.


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## Stroev (Nov 19, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> My e-cock is fucking huge.


"Ascendant". 

Well, not when compared to some others I know.


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## silly (Nov 19, 2008)

Hidan solos, because he's immortal. As long as he kills Sokka first, because no1 else will figure how to disable him ^^


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## Nikushimi (Nov 20, 2008)

Lee solos.

I'm being completely serious.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 21, 2008)

Nikushimi said:


> Lee solos.
> 
> I'm being completely serious.



Go back to the Library or something.


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## Zetta (Nov 21, 2008)

Nikushimi said:


> Lee solos.
> 
> I'm being completely serious.



And I'm being completely serieus when I say I hope you get raped by rabid wolverines.


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## Csdabest (Jan 1, 2009)

Lightning dodgers. hahahahahaha. Avatars as their slow ass lightning produced from Humans. its like a Raidog from kakashi. 

Sasuke Shunshin and rapes.


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## Azure Flame Fright (Jan 1, 2009)

Except, it's kinda real lightning, and not lightning that has been explained in the very manga to be vastly inferior to the authentic product.


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## BAD BD (Jan 1, 2009)

Yeah!

 avatarverse approaching light speed 



Yeah!


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## Azure Flame Fright (Jan 1, 2009)

Lightning doesn't come close to light speed BD


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## BAD BD (Jan 1, 2009)

At it's fastest it can go about half. That counts as approaching light speed in my book.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 1, 2009)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> Except, it's kinda real lightning



Sure it's real lightning, that doesn't mean it's as fast as natural lightning though.

Zuko intercepted Azula's lightning while he started running _after_ she fired it, and Aang was dodging Ozai's lightning all over.

Now, unless Zuko's became insanely fast for a split second, and Ozai is a _terrible_ shot, I'd say their lightning simply isn't as fast as you're making it out to be.


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## Azure Flame Fright (Jan 1, 2009)

BAD BD said:


> At it's fastest it can go about half. That counts as approaching light speed in my book.



And at it's slowest it's around like 1/2000th the speed of light.

That's far from approaching in my opinion.



Nihonjin said:


> Sure it's real lightning, that doesn't mean it's as fast as natural lightning though.



You realize how fucked up this sentence is right? 



> Zuko intercepted Azula's lightning while he started running _after_ she fired it, and Aang was dodging Ozai's lightning all over.



Affirmative.



> Now, unless Zuko's became insanely fast for a split second, and Ozai is a _terrible_ shot, I'd say their lightning simply isn't as fast as you're making it out to be.



Who ever said Zuko and everyone else wasn't always that fast?

You didn't give a reason why the characters can't be that fast.


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## Shinkirou (Jan 1, 2009)

The avatars gather together and sink the continent.


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## Marth6789 (Jan 1, 2009)

Shinkirou said:


> The avatars gather together and sink the continent.



Shodai comes and shows em how its done.


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## Federer (Jan 1, 2009)

Shodai Wood > Avatarverse

You want a serious answer? Avatarverse rapes, every noob knows that.


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## Banhammer (Jan 1, 2009)

too bad for all those plantbenders and hama and katara who can just rape plants and wood.


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## Banhammer (Jan 1, 2009)

Csdabest said:


> Lightning dodgers. hahahahahaha. Avatars as their slow ass lightning produced from Humans. its like a Raidog from kakashi.
> 
> Sasuke Shunshin and rapes.



too bad for the time iroh grabs lightning from an actual lightning storm.


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## BAD BD (Jan 1, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> too bad for the time iroh grabs lightning from an actual lightning storm.



Yeah!

Kirin


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## Banhammer (Jan 1, 2009)

Yeaah.

It takes pre-existing rain clouds that have stopped raining and a polarized atmosphere, and sasuke not having a mountain or two droppen on him.


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## Marth6789 (Jan 1, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> too bad for all those plantbenders and hama and katara who can just rape plants and wood.



??? The plant benders only bend "watery plants", Katara and Hama are the only ones who can pull water from plants. They dont "bend" wood.


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## Marth6789 (Jan 1, 2009)

Seriously, Shodai solos. If the creation of the valley of the end is any indication, then Shodai solos. We have yet to truly see the powers of the High tier in Naruto. Pein is fodder compared to Shodai,Madara, etc.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 1, 2009)

Katara and Hama pull water out of the wood that Shodai creates, freeze it into a large spiked mace, and forcibly insert it into Shodai's anatomy in a manner that is neither pleasant nor sanitary.


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## Michael Myers (Jan 1, 2009)

This has been banned if correct. Well in b4 lock and why not...
Kisame solos.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 1, 2009)

If by "Kisame" you mean "That guy that gives Waterbenders water with which to bend and thusly rape the shit out of the Narutoverse" and if by "solos" you mean "screw the fuck up in the worst possible way" then yes.


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## Narcissus (Jan 1, 2009)

> This has been banned if correct. Well in b4 lock and why not...
> Kisame solos.



It's no longer banned.  And Kisame solos? 

They're dealing with ever Avatar in existance, ones with much more experience than Aang, who can spiritbend people's power away, bloodbenders, lightning shooters, a face-stealing demon, dragons, etc.

This match is over.


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## Seyta (Jan 1, 2009)

Didn't Kyoshi split the continent?

ONE avatar would lay waste to the NarutoVerse...

Putting ALL of them in would have over a hundred beings dropping mountains on everyone who shows up...

And Kisame Solos?
Yes... Kisame vomits a lake with which the water-benders quickly take control of and send a spear of ice through his head...


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## BAD BD (Jan 1, 2009)

Boss summons > Avatarverse


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## Narcissus (Jan 1, 2009)

BAD BD said:


> Boss summons > Avatarverse



Water Spirit > Boss Summons.


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## Seyta (Jan 1, 2009)

BAD BD said:


> Boss summons > Avatarverse



Dragons > Boss Summons


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## Shock Therapy (Jan 1, 2009)

Katara > Boss Summons


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## Narcissus (Jan 1, 2009)

BAD BD said:


> Boss summons > Avatarverse



Giant LionTurtle > Boss Summons :xzaru


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## BAD BD (Jan 1, 2009)

Kisame > firebenders


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## Seyta (Jan 1, 2009)

I think we've established that NarutoVerse summons are useless now then...


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## Seyta (Jan 1, 2009)

BAD BD said:


> Kisame > firebenders



Azula, Iroh and Ozai shoot lightning...

Lightning > Kisame

I really don't see how it'll get that far though...

When Kisame creates his lake's worth of water to use, the water benders will just take control of it and murder him


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## BAD BD (Jan 1, 2009)

Seyta said:


> I think we've established that NarutoVerse summons are useless now then...



I don't know who any of those people are. 



> Azula, Iroh and Ozai shoot lightning...
> 
> Lightning > Kisame
> 
> ...



He doesn't need to create a lake.


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## Seyta (Jan 1, 2009)

BAD BD said:


> I don't know who any of those people are.
> 
> 
> 
> He doesn't need to create a lake.



Water Benders don't need Kisame to get water either


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## Shock Therapy (Jan 1, 2009)

Master water benders can create water from the moisture in the air and Katara can blood bend. Kisame dies a horrible death.


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## BAD BD (Jan 1, 2009)

Seyta said:


> Water Benders don't need Kisame to get water either



Kisame doesn't need water either. If he can create a lake from nothing he can use his lesser techniques.



rawrawraw said:


> Master water benders can create water from the moisture in the air and Katara can blood bend. Kisame dies a horrible death.



Kisame makes it come from nowhere. 


Kisame> waterbenders


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## Seyta (Jan 1, 2009)

BAD BD said:


> Kisame doesn't need water either. If he can create a lake from nothing he can use his lesser techniques.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Waterbenders bloodbend and make Kisame shred himself to pieces with Samehada


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## BAD BD (Jan 1, 2009)

Seyta said:


> Waterbenders bloodbend and make Kisame shred himself to pieces with Samehada



Kisame is too manly for such things.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jan 1, 2009)

Deidara blows everything up. Pein blows everything up.

1st post= blown up as well


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## Seyta (Jan 1, 2009)

BAD BD said:


> Kisame is too manly for such things.



He's too manly to have blood?



Redux-shika boo said:


> Deidara blows everything up. Pein blows everything up.
> 
> 1st post= blown up as well



Pain can't blow _anything_ up.

The 100+ Avatars will be dropping mountains and tidal waves on him

and Deidara's explosions barely amount to the Fire Nation's technological weaponry.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jan 1, 2009)

Seyta said:


> He's too manly to have blood?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Deidara blows everything up.
Pein blows everything up. 
1st post is blown up as well.


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## Seyta (Jan 1, 2009)

BAD BD said:


> Yes                  .



Fantastic then, he's dead before the fight begins =)


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 1, 2009)

He's so manly that he can survive without blood.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 1, 2009)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> You realize how fucked up this sentence is right?



Not really. I'm saying it's lightning, just not as fast as natural lightning.
And Zuko's feat supports my claim.



> Who ever said Zuko and everyone else wasn't always that fast?



WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA *takes a deep breath* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH

I think you get my point.



> You didn't give a reason why the characters can't be that fast.



The speed of lightning varies, but a typical natural lightning bolt moves at about 3,500 miles per second from the top of my head. (It can go up to about 90.000 miles per second, which should answer your question really)
Just clik this
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCPfwIZYSzM[/YOUTUBE]

I don't feel like doing calculations, but based on what we've seen throughout the series and their entire fight pre-lightning, I think it's pretty safe to say that if that bolt was traveling 3,500 miles per second that Zuko would not have made it in time. Heck, by the time he'd realize what Azula was aiming at, Katara would be dead.

So no, rather than saying Zuko became faster than Gear 2 Luffy for a split second and lost it straight afterwards, I think it's much more logical to say that Avatar lightning isn't even remotely close to the speed of natural lightning.

Feel free to prove me wrong though.


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## Spectre (Jan 1, 2009)

Hahahahaha. Look at all those deleted posts. No wonder why this kind of thread is so tempting. And anyway, I don't know how tailed beasts would fair out. I think that's what Naruto got best.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 1, 2009)

> Heck, by the time he'd realize what Azula was aiming at, Katara would be dead.



If only.


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## Ax_ (Jan 2, 2009)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> Who ever said Zuko and everyone else wasn't always that fast?
> 
> You didn't give a reason why the characters can't be that fast.



Couldn't that be because he Zuko got a boost in power from the comet as well?
Also, Aang can learn firebending, so shouldn't the comet amp up his own power just as much, if not more, than it did Ozai?

Also, doesn't regular lightning travel from the ground up towards the sky?
I remember hearing that from here


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## Banhammer (Jan 2, 2009)

Ax_ said:


> Couldn't that be because he Zuko got a boost in power from the comet as well?
> Also, Aang can learn firebending, so shouldn't the comet amp up his own power just as much, if not more, than it did Ozai?


He's probably better off with the Avatar State. In avatarverse there is no elemental "Rock papers scisor", proeficency is the big one, and Ozai is a master, so he was better off using all the previous Avatar's expirience, and get a bigger boost at the same time


> Also, doesn't regular lightning travel from the ground up towards the sky?
> I remember hearing that from here





> Lightning is simply a transfer of static electric charge but on a very grand scale. It travels in three directions actually: from sky to ground, from ground to sky and, what is most common, from cloud to cloud.


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## Ax_ (Jan 2, 2009)

Still, he gets the experience of all the other Avatars in that fight, so that should include all those who were primarily firebenders.
In other words, it should be easier for him than it is for Ozai, since he has a couple of thousand of years of knowledge to tap into, compared to, at most 40ish.

And with the comet, he should get the boost in addition to being avatar.


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## Banhammer (Jan 2, 2009)

Maybe the boost isn't pilleable, Or maybe he didn't because he didn't want to kill Ozai.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 2, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> If only.



Yeah, if only. Then you'd have an argument. 




Ax_ said:


> Couldn't that be because he Zuko got a boost in power from the comet as well?



In firebending, sure. In physical abilities, no. And even if it did, not enough to make Zuko be able to do what he did if that thing Azula fired was as fast as natural lightning.



> Still, he gets the experience of all the other Avatars in that fight, so that should include all those who were primarily firebenders.
> In other words, it should be easier for him than it is for Ozai, since he has a couple of thousand of years of knowledge to tap into, compared to, at most 40ish.
> 
> And with the comet, he should get the boost in addition to being avatar.



Aang firebends, the comet amplifies firebending, so I'm sure Aangs affected by the comet as well. But to say he can draw more power from it because he's older is a groundless statement.

Nvm


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## Narcissus (Jan 2, 2009)

It was rather obvious Aang got the power up from the comet when he blasted Ozai's warship.

Azula was not in a right state of mind in the final episode, and to shoot lightning perfectly, one must have a clear, calm mind.  Therefore, when Azula attacked, the lightning wasn't anywhere near full power.

Nihonjin, you'll need to strive a little harder for perfection in this debate.


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## Ax_ (Jan 2, 2009)

Nihonjin said:


> Yeah, if only. Then you'd have an argument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually what?
Also, I'm saying his boost in power mattered more because he was more experienced with using fire bending, from his previous lives affecting him.

And Benders tend to do better when their element has more power.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 2, 2009)

Disorderly Conduct said:


> Azula was not in a right state of mind in the final episode, and to shoot lightning perfectly, one must have a clear, calm mind.  *Therefore, when Azula attacked, the lightning wasn't anywhere near full power.*



Ah yes, that _must_ be it. Let me guess, their normal lightning _does_ move at 90.000 miles per second, but Azula was so messed up, that speed dropped to about the speed of a slow baseball pitch, so it doesn't count, right?

Doesn't it bother you at all that you're making things up to support your argument? There is absolutely _nothing_ to suggest that her lightning moved at a different speed than normal.



Ax_ said:


> Actually what?
> Also, I'm saying his boost in power mattered more because he was more experienced with using fire bending, from his previous lives affecting him.



Yeah, nvm, I think I just misunderstood you. We're on the same page.


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## Amatsu (Jan 2, 2009)

Honestly I'd have a hard time seeing Aang beat Pein or Sage Naruto even in the avatar state. His feats just aren't enough to show that he could win against them.

Thus Narutoverse wins.


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## Banhammer (Jan 2, 2009)

Forgetting of Bloodbending and airbending them to space are we?
Also, it's not just Aang, it's every avatar..

Of the thousands of avatars that there have been.
If one is a match for pein and sage naruto....


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## Amatsu (Jan 2, 2009)

Except Aang doesn't know Bloodbending and Katara who rarely uses it would be dead before she got the chance.


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## Banhammer (Jan 2, 2009)

Technincally speaking Katara used it every chance she had ever since she learned it, so, yeah

Slo

Every single avatar of the thousands of avatars so far is in this fight.


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## Amatsu (Jan 2, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Technincally speaking Katara used it every chance she had ever since she learned it, so, yeah
> 
> Slo
> 
> Every single avatar of the thousands of avatars so far is in this fight.



After the bloodbending episode I only counted one or two instances where she actually used it. So no she doesn't usually use it.


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## Platinum (Jan 2, 2009)

Narutoverse takes this. No one in Avatar can beat the high tiers like Itachi, Pain or SM Naruto.


But Avatar has a good chance with all their Avatars though but each Avatar is weaker than the last.


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 2, 2009)

Aethos said:


> Honestly I'd have a hard time seeing Aang beat Pein or Sage Naruto even in the avatar state. His feats just aren't enough to show that he could win against them.
> 
> Thus Narutoverse wins.



Do Pein and Sage Naruto have feats on the level of cracking an island off a continent and pushing it out to sea?  Or plugging a volcano?  Or causing a tsunami?


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## Marth6789 (Jan 2, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Do Pein and Sage Naruto have feats on the level of cracking an island off a continent and pushing it out to sea?  Or plugging a volcano?  Or causing a tsunami?


Their powers don't involve elemental manipulation such as that.
They don't need them when they can one-shot avatar characters.

Besides Page 17
Thats a result of the battle between Shodai and Madara.


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## Banhammer (Jan 2, 2009)

^I am hardly impressed by that.

Roku sends his steel vaporizing fire wave in an omnidirection and solos narutoverse.


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## Narcissus (Jan 2, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Do Pein and Sage Naruto have feats on the level of cracking an island off a continent and pushing it out to sea?  Or plugging a volcano?  Or causing a tsunami?



No, they don't.  Not at all.




> Ah yes, that must be it. Let me guess, their normal lightning does move at 90.000 miles per second, but Azula was so messed up, that speed dropped to about the speed of a slow baseball pitch, so it doesn't count, right?
> 
> Doesn't it bother you at all that you're making things up to support your argument? There is absolutely nothing to suggest that her lightning moved at a different speed than normal.





In no way am I "making up" anything; I am using what was stated in the show itself.  Also, putting words in my mouth is not effective debating.  I never said the lightning the firebenders shoot is as fast as actual lightning, but the lightning in the thunderstorm was completely real.  

Still, when used properly, thei lightning still moves very fast, like when Uncle redirected Azula's lightning bolt and it hit a mountain in a second.

--

Thousands of Avatars, bloodbenders, dragons, a face-stealing demon, energy bending Aang, lightning shooters, a giant Lionturtle, etc.  Without the thousands of Avatars, then I'm not sure who would win, but with them here, it's obvious the Avatarverse stomps.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 2, 2009)

Koh practically solos. The only people he couldn't get to is Kakashi and the Anbu. And Zabuza and Haku.

Actually, do masks work on Koh? If not then Koh literally solos.


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## Narcissus (Jan 2, 2009)

Any emotion at all is enough for Koh, so Kakashi and Zabuza aren't safe.  You'd need a full mask, like Haku.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 2, 2009)

it's kind of a spirit thing so masks are meaningless

Sai might have a shot against Koh. also, self quote for great justice





Banhammer said:


> ^I am hardly impressed by that.
> 
> Roku sends his steel vaporizing fire wave in an omnidirection and solos narutoverse.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 2, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Do Pein and Sage Naruto have feats on the level of cracking an island off a continent and pushing it out to sea?  Or plugging a volcano?  Or causing a tsunami?



You know that Aang never did any of those things. I know that the avatar state gives Aang all the knowledge and power of the past avatars but he's never shown those kind of feats in the avatar state, and honestly with his experience I doubt he could fully do what Kyoshi or even Roku did.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 2, 2009)

But in case you're skipping the past eight posts or so, both Kyoshi and Roku are in this fight.


Along with thousands of other avatars

And the spirits.

Also, Aang in avatar state cracked the earth's crust once and brought up lava for the lulz.

Again


> Roku sends his steel vaporizing fire wave in an omnidirection and solos narutoverse.


What do I win?


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 2, 2009)

nothing because even though Roku can redirect lava that doesn't mean he can solo the Narutoverse. Especially against the high tier characters. I doubt anyone in the avatarverse has that kind of power. Aang is supposed to be the strongest living character and he's never shown off feats that can solo an entire universe.

I'm not saying the avatarverse couldn't hold their own. It's not going to be a stomp, but there's no way they can possibly win.

Also where are these thousands of bloodbenders? Katara as I recall was the only one besides the person who taught it to her.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 2, 2009)

> Also where are these thousands of bloodbenders? Katara as I recall was the only one besides the person who taught it to her.



Katara: Hey everybody, why don't you try bending their blood?



> nothing because even though Roku can redirect lava that doesn't mean he can solo the Narutoverse



He doesn't need to, he just needs to pick off Koh's survivors.



> . It's not going to be a stomp, but there's no way they can possibly win.



What are you, high?


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 2, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Katara: Hey everybody, why don't you try bending their blood?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah high on common sense.

Do you honestly think water benders would even KNOW how to bend blood? Katara seemed to be a special case if I recall. Even if Katara did suggest it that doesn't mean water benders could actually do it.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 2, 2009)

> Yeah high on some sort of halucinagen.



Clearly.

What's so difficult about bending blood? It's water. Water benders bend water. 

Hama told Katara that it was possible and suprise! Katara was able to do it. Or you could argue that Katara learned it by watching Hama.

Katara: Hey everybody, watch me bend this guy's blood!

See how easy that was?

Katara isn't some uber-ultra-messiah of doom. She's just a Waterbender that happened to show up in the town Hama was living in.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 2, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Clearly.
> 
> What's so difficult about bending blood? It's water. Water benders bend water.
> 
> ...



If it's so easy to bend blood then why is it only two people in the known avatarverse can do it? Not to mention that bloodbending was created as a power up just for Katara. I doubt that just ANYONE can learn bloodbending. Especially since Katara was shown as being a so-called talented genius at water bending.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 2, 2009)

> If it's so easy to bend blood then why is it only two people in the known avatarverse can do it?



Plot. The Siege of the North or the Day of the Black Sun wouldn't have been nearly so dramatic if the Waterbenders just went "oh we'll just bend their blood and make them throw themselves off a cliff."



> Not to mention that bloodbending was created as a power up just for Katara.



By that logic Konohamaru, Kakashi and Jiraiya shouldn't know Rasengan because it was created as a powerup just for Naruto. 

Or Shadow Clone justu because it was created as a powerup just for Naruto.

Kakashi and Gai using Gates which were created for the sole purpose of powering up Lee? PFAH! Don't make me laugh.

Sakura using superstrength despite it being created solely for Tsunade? As if.

Anyone other than Naruto using summon jutsu which was created solely for the purpose of powering up Naruto? Totally out of the question.

Sasuke's Dojutsus created for Itachi? Not gonna happen.




> I doubt that just ANYONE can learn bloodbending.



Not any more than just anyone can learn lightning bending.



> Especially since Katara was shown as being a so-called talented genius at water bending.



So that limits the number of people who can do it to the hundreds and hundreds of Master-level waterbenders. Like the Avatars and Pakku. And the Foggy Swamp guys. And the Ocean Spirit.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 2, 2009)

Aethos, the basis of your argument is completely laughable.  Who said anything about thousands of bloodbenders?  The two that exist, in combination with all the other forms of offense in Avatar, will be enough to devastate the Narutoverse.

Also, the only reason two people in Avatar know the technique is because Hama only taught it to Katara.  It is not hard to believe that watebenders who > Katara could learn it, but it won't even be necessary.

Funny how you bring no argument against Koh and the dragons.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 2, 2009)

Disorderly Conduct said:


> Aethos, the basis of your argument is completely laughable.  Who said anything about thousands of bloodbenders?  The two that exist, in combination with all the other forms of offense in Avatar, will be enough to devastate the Narutoverse.



Actually you did



Disorderly Conduct said:


> Thousands of Avatars, bloodbenders, dragons, a face-stealing demon, energy bending Aang, lightning shooters, a giant Lionturtle, etc.  Without the thousands of Avatars, then I'm not sure who would win, but with them here, it's obvious the Avatarverse stomps.



But then again the way your paragraph sounds you probably didn't intend for it to be read that way. Nonetheless it was because of how it was worded. I made the comment based on the idea that you actually believed there would be thousands of bloodbenders. So I guess I made a mistake sorry.

Anyways say what you will but I don't see the elemental system in avatar being as strong as the one in Naruto. Sure benders could probably take out fodder, but not mid to high tier Naruto characters.



Disorderly Conduct said:


> Also, the only reason two people in Avatar know the technique is because Hama only taught it to Katara.  It is not hard to believe that watebenders who > Katara could learn it, but it won't even be necessary.
> 
> Funny how you bring no argument against Koh and the dragons.



Cause there's no argument I can really make about Koh and the dragons. You know what I find funnier? The fact that I'm actually arguing for the Narutoverse for a change in a thread with people who I usually agree with when it comes to One Piece fights. That's hilarious.

And I'm arguing FOR the Narutoverse because the Narutoverse has shown enough feats that makes it plausable for them to win. I'm not trying to make shit up here either. I'm going with actual common sense, and common sense is that the Avatarverse (as much as I love the series) doesn't stand a chance.



> By that logic Konohamaru, Kakashi and Jiraiya shouldn't know Rasengan because it was created as a powerup just for Naruto.



At least they were shown using it in the canon. You're trying to turn every waterbender into an instant bloodbender.


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 2, 2009)

Disorderly Conduct said:


>



 right back at ya. 



> In no way am I "making up" anything; I am using what was stated in the show itself.



I'd like you to quote, or show me exactly what they said then.
Because I'm pretty sure speed had nothing to do with it.



> Also, putting words in my mouth is not effective debating.  I never said the lightning the firebenders shoot is as fast as actual lightning, but the lightning in the thunderstorm was completely real.



It should've been plain as day that I'm talking about their bending and not their natural lightning  
I thought you were too.

So why exactly are we arguing again?


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 2, 2009)

> Anyways say what you will but I don't see the elemental system in avatar being as strong as the one in Naruto. Sure benders could probably take out fodder, but not mid to high tier Naruto characters.



It's not a matter of the elemental system being stronger, it's a matter of the narutoverse being completely and utterly outmatched in every way that matters.



> You're trying to turn every waterbender into an instant bloodbender.



No, just the ones with enough skill and power to pull it off. I assure you that Katara, skilled as she is, is not the be-all-end-all of waterbenders.



> I'm going with actual common sense, and common sense is that the Avatarverse (as much as I love the series) doesn't stand a chance.



Your definition of "common sense" needs redefining.



> Cause there's no argument I can really make about Koh and the dragons.



Then you admit that the Narutoverse has no way of dealing with them, and is thusly boned(pardon my French).


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 2, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> It's not a matter of the elemental system being stronger, it's a matter of the narutoverse being completely and utterly outmatched in every way that matters.



How so? The Avatarverse has never shown the speed feats the Narutoverse possesses. Not to mention that despite bending skills the offensive and defensive abilities of the Narutoverse are superior.





Onomatopoeia said:


> No, just the ones with enough skill and power to pull it off. I assure you that Katara, skilled as she is, is not the be-all-end-all of waterbenders.



And when would she even have TIME to teach all these waterbenders how to blood bend?





Onomatopoeia said:


> Your definition of "common sense" needs redefining.



Or it could be that my common sense is right on, and I'm just arguing in another Narutoverse hate thread.





Onomatopoeia said:


> Then you admit that the Narutoverse has no way of dealing with them, and is thusly boned(pardon my French).



I never said that. I just don't know how they would deal with them. I'm sure someone else can figure it out.


----------



## potential (Jan 3, 2009)

Shinra Tensei after Shinra Tensei after Shinra Tensei. Pain will get the job done


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 3, 2009)

potential said:


> Shinra Tensei after Shinra Tensei after Shinra Tensei. Pain will get the job done



Um you do know the effects right? Like how it shorten Pein's life and how he needs a lot of time to recover?


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 3, 2009)

Aethos said:


> But then again the way your paragraph sounds you probably didn't intend for it to be read that way. Nonetheless it was because of how it was worded. I made the comment based on the idea that you actually believed there would be thousands of bloodbenders. So I guess I made a mistake sorry.



No problem, I'm in part responsible.  I'll just need to word myself better in the future.



> Anyways say what you will but I don't see the elemental system in avatar being as strong as the one in Naruto. Sure benders could probably take out fodder, but not mid to high tier Naruto characters.



Please, use some evidence from the manga for support.




> Cause there's no argument I can really make about Koh and the dragons. You know what I find funnier? The fact that I'm actually arguing for the Narutoverse for a change in a thread with people who I usually agree with when it comes to One Piece fights. That's hilarious.



Yes, well, the Narutoverse and Avatarverse are often considered around the same level, and putting thousands of Avatars into the mix makes it a complete stomp.




> I never said that. I just don't know how they would deal with them. I'm sure someone else can figure it out.



You're basically conceding then, which I accept. 




Nihonjin said:


> right back at ya.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We're arguing the speed of the lightning shooters, which I agree on it not being as fast as real lightning.

I can't find the clips on Youtube, but go to Animethat and look through episode The Avatar State to see everything I'm talking about.  Overall,






> Shinra Tensei after Shinra Tensei after Shinra Tensei. Pain will get the job done


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 3, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Plot. The Siege of the North or the Day of the Black Sun wouldn't have been nearly so dramatic if the Waterbenders just went "oh we'll just bend their blood and make them throw themselves off a cliff."



Or, they simply couldn't. Because they didn't.



> By that logic Konohamaru, Kakashi and Jiraiya shouldn't know Rasengan because it was created as a powerup just for Naruto.



The fact that they've actually used the technique in the manga is proof that it's not a powerup just created for Naruto. That's just your random assumption.

Saying all good Water benders can Blood bend just because Katara can is another random assumption of yours.

By your logic, every decent Earth bender should be able to bend metal just because Toph can. And every single ninja should be able to do Rasengan, because they all have chakra they can control, just like Naruto. 



> Or Shadow Clone justu because it was created as a powerup just for Naruto.



More of your random assumptions. Obviously it's not limited to Naruto, because the people that have used it in the manga can do it as well.



> Kakashi and Gai using Gates which were created for the sole purpose of powering up Lee? PFAH! Don't make me laugh.



Another random assumption. It's not for the sole purpose of powering up Lee.
But for anyone who's shown to be able to do it. (I feel like a broken record)



> Anyone other than Naruto using summon jutsu which was created solely for the purpose of powering up Naruto? Totally out of the question.



Obviously summoning is not limited to Naruto. So I'm not sure why you're suggesting it's _his_ power-up.



> Not any more than just anyone can learn lightning bending.



Is that even English?



> *So that limits the number of people who can do it to the hundreds and hundreds of Master-level waterbenders.* Like the Avatars and Pakku. And the Foggy Swamp guys. And the Ocean Spirit.



No, the number is limited to the amount of people we've actually seen use it. Two.

Unless it's been stated that a specific person can use a technique (like Minato & Rasengan) or the person has shown to be able to do it, they can't.

The fact that they didn't, supports our argument that they can't. So the burden of proof is on you.



Onomatopoeia said:


> It's not a matter of the elemental system being stronger, it's a matter of the narutoverse being completely and utterly outmatched in every way that matters.



Genjutsu, Kawarimi, Bunshin, Speed advantage, power advantage, characters that can nuke, immortals. Yeah, you're right, Completely outmatched.



> *No, just the ones with enough skill and power to pull it off*. I assure you that Katara, skilled as she is, is not the be-all-end-all of waterbenders.



You have no way to determine the requirements.
Just because a bender is stronger than Katara doesn't necessarily mean they can automatically Blood bend.

By that logic, Ozai should be able to redirect lightning, because a vastly inferior Zuko is able to do it as well.

So, no. The only people capable of doing it, are the ones that have shown it.



> Your definition of "common sense" needs redefining.



I was thinking of saying something, but that'd be rude.



> Then you admit that the Narutoverse has no way of dealing with them, and is thusly boned(pardon my French).



Stop pulling random things out of your ass.

Either read, understand, and argue or give up and gtfo. Don't put words in people's mouth and act as if you've won. It's sad.



Disorderly Conduct said:


> We're arguing the speed of the lightning shooters, which I agree on it not being as fast as real lightning.



Then why on earth were we arguing...



> I can't find the clips on Youtube, but go to Animethat and look through episode The Avatar State to see everything I'm talking about.



Alright, I'll do that.



> Overall,



Guess that's something we agree on 



potential said:


> Shinra Tensei after Shinra Tensei after Shinra Tensei. Pain will get the job done


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 3, 2009)

Disorderly Conduct said:


> Please, use some evidence from the manga for support.



I'll say at least this much. I believe there was a past thread where Aang got his ass kicked by KN4 Naruto. Now if Aang was beaten by that do you really think characters who have shown feats just as strong or stronger are going to lose to anyone in the Avatarverse? I honestly don't think so.

If we were talking about part 1 then I could agree that Avatarverse wins. However, Part 2 has shown enough feats manga wise that the Narutoverse has pulled out of the Avatarverse's league. I'm not saying it out of biasedness. I'm saying it cause it's true.






Disorderly Conduct said:


> Yes, well, the Narutoverse and Avatarverse are often considered around the same level, and putting thousands of Avatars into the mix makes it a complete stomp.



Yeah they were considered the same level around the time of KN4, and come on if the fire nation needs a fucking comet in order to take out the entire earth kingdom then that proves they're out of the Narutoverse's league. Especially against characters like Itachi, Hachibi, Jiraiya, Deidara, Naruto, Pein, Madara, and even Sasuke. 

And honestly the comet being used to burn away the entire earth kingdom was the best feat of the firebenders. If we want to go by pure destructive power. The Narutoverse is stronger and it has a lot more versatility.






Disorderly Conduct said:


> You're basically conceding then, which I accept.



I concede on one point. Not the entire thing.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 3, 2009)

Nihonjin said:


> Or, they simply couldn't. Because they didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We're arguing how fast their lightning is.  Their lightning is still quite fast, and Iroh still reacted to real lightning, which I think moves at a the speed of regular lightning.

syrup

Look at the end of Zuko and Azula's fight around the end of the episode.  Iroh redirects Azula's lightning, and it covers the distance to the mountain in a second.

Also, your logic about other earthbenders being able to bend metal is wrong.  Only Toph can do it because she can sense the earth within the metal through vibrations, something only she and Aang can do.  Bad analogy, good try.

BTW, lightning redirection can be easily taught (Iroh to Zuko, Zuko to Aang), but Iroh invented it, thus why Ozai doesn't know it.  Saying he couldn't learn it is silly.  Not that it matters, with thousands of Avatars in the mix, as well as Koh and dragons.

Further, the link I posted shows other Avatars  casually creating Tsunamis, wind gales and making volcanos erupt.

On another note, we can facepalm all day, but it won't get us anywhere.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

> The fact that they've actually used the technique in the manga is proof that it's not a powerup just created for Naruto. That's just your random assumption.



Then by that logic Hama used bloodbending meaning someone other than Katara is capable of bloodbending. Someone like Pakku. Or the hundreds and hundreds of Avatars. Or the Ocean Spirit. 



> Saying all good Water benders can Blood bend just because Katara can is another random assumption of yours.



Random but reasonable.



> By your logic, every decent Earth bender should be able to bend metal just because Toph can.



Yes. Because while Toph is certainly the best Earthbender there is, she is not the only one there is. Metalbending is a skill that can be learned just like lightning bending. 

Does this mean that all Eartbenders can bend metal? No. But I have no doubt that master level Earthbenders, given the knowledge that it is possible could work it out given enough time.

There's nothing complicated about Bloodbending, all there is to it is to take control of someone's blood using waterbending. Does this mean that all Waterbenders are capable of using bloodbending? No, but Katara was able to learn Bloodbending on the spot. 

Katara is not somehow special as waterbenders go. She just happens to have a hgh skill level. Given this there's no reason to assume that she is the only person in the omniverse that is capable of bending blood.



> And every single ninja should be able to do Rasengan, because they all have chakra they can control, just like Naruto.



Again yes. Rasengan is not somehow unique among jutsu, all it takes is chakra control and knowledge of how to do it and time to work it out.



> Genjutsu, Kawarimi, Bunshin, Speed advantage, power advantage, characters that can nuke, immortals. Yeah, you're right, Completely outmatched.



Bloodbenders(a shitload of 'em), dragons, Koh, the Ocean Spirit. I am right, they are outmatched.



> You have no way to determine the requirements.



There were no special requirements given(well, outside of the full moon, but that doesn't count since it affects all waterbenders) so there is no reason to assume there are any unless you are desperate that the Avatarverse not have bloodbending with which to rape said ninjaverse.



> Just because a bender is stronger than Katara doesn't necessarily mean they can automatically Blood bend.



Of course not, because they might not be aware of it. Hence Katara telling them that it's possible. 



> By that logic, Ozai should be able to redirect lightning, because a vastly inferior Zuko is able to do it as well.



Give him knowledge of how to do it and I'm sure he can work it out. Being a master firebender and all that.



> You've clearly read and understood the intent of that one guy, and clearly you've won the argument and I should just give up and gtfo. You're so awesome, Ono. I bow before your awesome awesomeness. Verily, you are so awesome that the sun seem less bright when you are around.



Why thank you, Nihonjin.


----------



## Marth6789 (Jan 3, 2009)

The avatarverse doesn't have the firepower to win. A fully released Shukaku can take out most if not all of the verse.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

They needed the comet to take out the earth kingdom in one day.
I think when you take a third of the planet overnight with just a ballon fleet, you've got serious firepower in your hands.
And we've got thousands of the friend who stood up to them, and them.
Where's the debate?


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

> The avatarverse doesn't have the firepower to win. A fully released Shukaku can take out most if not all of the verse.



Totally. Except for all the earthbenders. And the waterbenders. And the airbenders. And the firebenders. And the spirits. And the dragons. 


And the awesome awsome animals. Platypus bear anyone?


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

A single Avatar in the Avatar state, from the thousands of avatars in this fight turns shukaku into a rock killing Gaara. 


Also, repeat myself for great justice
Roku sends steel vaporizing fire wave in all directions, soloing narutoverse, only sparing his comrades (yes, he's that good).


----------



## Marth6789 (Jan 3, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Totally. Except for all the earthbenders. And the waterbenders. And the airbenders. And the firebenders. And the spirits. And the dragons.
> 
> 
> And the awesome awsome animals. Platypus bear anyone?



Yeah and exactly what will they do? Yamato with one hand seal has more feats that EVERY water and earth bender outside of Toph, Katara,Bumi, and Aang.

Link removed Hell outside of avatar's they don't have a single person who compares to that.  Link removed

Coupled with they don't have a single person who can take on Sasori. Once he breaks out Sandaime its game over. Avatar characters don't have the speed or maneuverability to handle human let alone normal puppets.


----------



## Choshino (Jan 3, 2009)

This was just a stupid thing to do -.-   What the **** is the narutoverse going to do something, against with ease 400-1000 + avatars who if they combined inte their avatar state could turn the earth inside out ? and still have 1000s of other benders, warriors and monsters to destroy the world. So sad the narutoverse loses again ^^. This close to a stomp.


----------



## Marth6789 (Jan 3, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> *A single Avatar in the Avatar state, from the thousands of avatars in this fight turns shukaku into a rock killing Gaara. *
> 
> 
> Also, repeat myself for great justice
> Roku sends steel vaporizing fire wave in all directions, soloing narutoverse, only sparing his comrades (yes, he's that good).



How will they manage that? Since when could avatar's control SAND, especially sentient sand. This was the same argument used on Gaara agaisnt Croc. If Gaara can't do it with sand abilities far eclipsing the whole verse the avatar's can't either.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

> Yeah and exactly what will they do?



Kill the shit out of everyone in sight.



> Coupled with they don't have a single person who can take on Sasori.



Any of the Avatars. Earthbenders drop a giant rock on him. Koh steals his face. The dragons burn him to death. So do the firebenders. Waterbenders encase him in a block of ice, making him useless.



> Once he breaks out Sandaime its game over.


Yeah except, you know, not. Plus he'll be dead before that happens.




> Avatar characters don't have the speed or maneuverability to handle human let alone normal puppets



*rolls eyes*



> How will they manage that?



With Earthbending.




> Since when could avatar's control SAND, especially sentient sand.



Sand is a type of earth. As for sentient sand, alone perhaps Shukaku would at best stalemate them. Against thousands, he'd be easily overpowered.




> If Gaara can't do it with sand abilities far eclipsing the whole verse the avatar's can't either.



Gaara doesn't have abilities eclipsing a whole verse, Señor Wankeriffic.


----------



## Zoidberg (Jan 3, 2009)

Marth6789 said:


> How will they manage that? Since when could avatar's control SAND, especially sentient sand. This was the same argument used on Gaara agaisnt Croc. If Gaara can't do it with sand abilities far eclipsing the whole verse the avatar's can't either.



Sand is still earth, so earthbenders can still bend it.


----------



## Marth6789 (Jan 3, 2009)

Choshino said:


> This was just a stupid thing to do -.-   What the **** is the narutoverse going to do something, against with ease 400-1000 + avatars who if they combined inte their avatar state could turn the earth inside out ? and still have 1000s of other benders, warriors and monsters to destroy the world. So sad the narutoverse loses again ^^. This close to a stomp.


Avatar's get blind-sided by Amaterasu, cut by Sasori, speed-blitzed, outsmarted, Shinra Tensei'd, Kage Bunshin'd by thousands of Sage mode Naruto's and Jiraiya's.
Anything outside of the Avatar's is fodder.


----------



## Marth6789 (Jan 3, 2009)

battlerek said:


> *Sand is still earth, so earthbenders can still bend it.*



Proof? Only the actual sand benders were able to bend sand. And it still doesn't address the fact that Shukaku is sentient sand.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

> Proof? Only the actual sand benders were able to bend sand.



Sand benders are fancy earthbenders. And Toph can sand bend. Unless you want to tell me that Toph isn't an Earthbender.



> Avatar's get blind-sided by Amaterasu,



Firebenders.



> cut by Sasori



Dead before he tries.



> speed-blitzed


Not gonna happen. 



> outsmarted,



Not so much.



> Shinra Tensei'd



Dead before use.




> Kage Bunshin'd by thousands of Sage mode Naruto's and Jiraiya's.



AOE death.



> Anything outside of the Avatar's is fodder.



Except for all the benders. And the Spirits. And the Dragons.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Earthbenders have greater jurisidction over Gaara on the sand, because gaara manipulates the chakra that manipulates the earth
Earthbenders are straight earth fuckers.


Also, any earthbender can turn things into sand, rock and bend sand. Dai Li did it, Toph did it, Boomi did it, Aang did it.


----------



## Marth6789 (Jan 3, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Kill the shit out of everyone in sight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And Sasori moves out of the way. Koh cant steal Sasori's face . Dragons get blind sided by Iron Sand and his performance of 100 puppets, as do the water and firebenders.

I said Gaara has SAND feats eclipsing the whole verse.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

and while they can turn sand into rock, gaara can't fuck with rocks.


----------



## Marth6789 (Jan 3, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Sand benders are fancy earthbenders. And Toph can sand bend. Unless you want to tell me that Toph isn't an Earthbender.



Toph sucks at bending sand as clearly seen during the discovery of the fire bender eclipse.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

> And Sasori moves out of the way. Koh cant steal Sasori's face . Dragons get blind sided by Iron Sand and his performance of 100 puppets, as do the water and firebenders.
> 
> I said Gaara has SAND feats eclipsing the whole verse.





You mean sasori against the millions of firebenders in Avatarverse.
You're one lulzworthy joker.


----------



## Zoidberg (Jan 3, 2009)

Marth6789 said:


> And Sasori moves out of the way. Koh cant steal Sasori's face . Dragons get blind sided by Iron Sand and his performance of 100 puppets, as do the water and firebenders.
> 
> I said Gaara has SAND feats eclipsing the whole verse.



What's stopping legions of firebenders from torching wooden puppets to ash?


----------



## Marth6789 (Jan 3, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> *Earthbenders have greater jurisidction over Gaara on the sand, because gaara manipulates the chakra that manipulates the earth
> Earthbenders are straight earth fuckers.
> *
> 
> Also, any earthbender can turn things into sand, rock and bend sand. Dai Li did it, Toph did it, Boomi did it, Aang did it.



If earth benders had greater jurisdiction why don't they have better feats? Face it Gaara has better control over sand that anyone in Avatar.


----------



## Marth6789 (Jan 3, 2009)

battlerek said:


> What's stopping legions of firebenders from torching wooden puppets to ash?



Sandaime Kaze Kage.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Marth6789 said:


> Toph sucks at bending sand as clearly seen during the discovery of the fire bender eclipse.



No, she's actually amazing at it.


The Combustion Man episode or something much later on has her with just a flick of her hands creating a huge miniature replica of ba sing se out of sand to the last infimus detail, like every house and inhabitants.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Marth6789 said:


> Sandaime Kaze Kage.



the one any of the many many many many many many many many many people can stomp?


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

> Sandaime Kaze Kage.



A wooden puppet that gets burned just like any other puppet.


----------



## Marth6789 (Jan 3, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> No, she's actually amazing at it.
> 
> 
> The Combustion Man episode or something much later on has her with just a flick of her hands creating a huge miniature replica of ba sing se out of sand to the last infimus detail, like every house and inhabitants.



I stand corrected then. Still doesn't change that she fails compared to Gaara.


----------



## Zoidberg (Jan 3, 2009)

Marth6789 said:


> Sandaime Kaze Kage.



With his iron sand? I believe that large amounts of firebenders will produce enough heat to melt through his iron sand.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Marth6789 said:


> If earth benders had greater jurisdiction why don't they have better feats? Face it Gaara has better control over sand that anyone in Avatar.



Oh yes, because mooving an island is such a lesser feat than a sand blanket.
fail again


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

battlerek said:


> With his iron sand? I believe that large amounts of firebenders will produce enough heat to melt through his iron sand.



roku can vaporize steel and do so in every direction.

Again, this is a rape thread.
Him
Alone
Solos.
And it's not even a technique exclusive to him.
You have thoooooousands of these guys, and millions of firebenders.
If you assume one in one hundred is a master, with a comet on, you still have tens of thousands of fuckers on Steel vaporizing level.


----------



## Marth6789 (Jan 3, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> A wooden puppet that gets burned just like any other puppet.



A wooden puppet with tons of iron filament, right. Sasori easily makes a shield out of the Iron Sand. Not to mention that Sasori can easily just go human puppet with Sandaime.


----------



## Marth6789 (Jan 3, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Oh yes, because mooving an island is such a lesser feat than a sand blanket.
> fail again



1. Only 1 avatar did that.
2. You're comparing earth(which Gaara doesn't manipulate) to sand.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Marth6789 said:


> A wooden puppet with tons of iron filament, right. Sasori easily makes a shield out of the Iron Sand. Not to mention that Sasori can easily just go human puppet with Sandaime.



Combustion Man thinks in Sasori's general direction
The end.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

> A wooden puppet with tons of iron filament, right. Sasori easily makes a shield out of the Iron Sand.


*rolls eyes*



> Not to mention that Sasori can easily just go human puppet with Sandaime.



And that prevents him from being killed......how?


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Marth6789 said:


> 1. Only 1 avatar did that.
> 2. You're comparing earth(which Gaara doesn't manipulate) to sand.



1- In Avatar state, all avatars have the same power and the same expirience. Don't be a troll.
2- To earthbenders sand and earth is the same. Gaara not manipulating it is his weakness.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 3, 2009)

You're gonna need a better argument for how they'll deal with Koh and the dragons.  Furthermore, the thousands of Avatars will simply shoot some lava at the enemy or split the ground open, causing them all to fall to their death.


----------



## Zoidberg (Jan 3, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Combustion Man thinks in Sasori's general direction
> The end.



Crap, forgot about him.

Plus, doesn't Avatar have the aerial advantage? Earthbenders can simply board fire nation baloons and fling boulders from the sky.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 3, 2009)

Not to mention, Baumi is a city bender.


----------



## Zoidberg (Jan 3, 2009)

Disorderly Conduct said:


> Not to mention, Baumi is a city bender.



Using only his chin, no less.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Lol, fuck Shinra Tensei.

They get Aang to hid Appa in the clouds, with combustion man over konoha and

Boom
Boom
Boom
Boom
Tsunade: aaah, why God, whhhyyyyyyyy


----------



## Zoidberg (Jan 3, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Lol, fuck Shinra Tensei.
> 
> They get Aang to hid Appa in the clouds, with combustion man over konoha and
> 
> ...



Since when was Combustion man's skill have such a long range?


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

battlerek said:


> Since when was Combustion man's skill have such a long range?



When he lulzy bombs the gaang from neighbouring cliffs and mountains without much effort?
also, he's technically a firebender, and the comet is on. 
He can spam his own Shinra Tenseis with actuall firepower behind it, making Deidara, if he had survived bumi waving his chin at him go


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

yes, because ontop of all other things why avatar verse rapes narutoverse, there is the litte bonus of not running out of chakra.


----------



## Zoidberg (Jan 3, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> When he lulzy bombs the gaang from neighbouring cliffs and mountains without much effort?
> also, he's technically a firebender, and the comet is on.
> He can spam his own Shinra Tenseis with actuall firepower behind it, making Deidara, if he had survived bumi waving his chin at him go



Ah, I remember that ep. Much lulz from Sokka was recieved

And let's not forget Hama and her bloodbending.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Hamma tells the thousands of waterbenders to go for the blood and if they're half as talented as katara, they'll all be able to use it on the go.
But there's hardly a need what with the ocean spirit here and all the other redundancies I wish I didn't have to repeat myself to remember why this is raep.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 3, 2009)

^^ You mean Hama, not "Kama" and the bloodbending has been mentioned quite a bit, along with dragons and Koh the face-stealing spirit.


----------



## Zoidberg (Jan 3, 2009)

Though I wonder what would happen if they go up against Shodai and the Senju, assuming that other members of his clan can use wood jutsu?

Plus, there's still summons.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

In light of current chapter, sumons aren't half as big now. The avatars can solo them, even if the spirits were to bother to flick them off.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 3, 2009)

Summons?  HA!  Look at the first 5 or 6 posts on page 4 of this thread.  lol summons.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

oh yeah, the lulz that is the cloverfield sized lion turtle who could just take away all of the narutoverse's powers away by pointing at them.

Oh rape thread.


----------



## Zoidberg (Jan 3, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> oh yeah, the lulz that is the cloverfield sized lion turtle who could just take away all of the narutoverse's powers away by pointing at them.
> 
> Oh rape thread.



I thought only Aang can do that?

Though I don't know why the lion turtle will be even needed. The water spirit would be more than enough, based on what's been said. Plus, wouldn't that be a no limits fallacy, given that only benders have shown to be stripped of their powers?


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

battlerek said:


> I thought only Aang can do that?
> 
> Though I don't know why the lion turtle will be even needed. The water spirit would be more than enough, based on what's been said. Plus, wouldn't that be a no limits fallacy, given that only benders have shown to be stripped of their powers?



Giant lion turtle taught that to Aang with the tiniest most carefulliest and gentelist tip of his claw.
Also, energy bending falls neatly under the equivalence rule.


----------



## Zoidberg (Jan 3, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Giant lion turtle taught that to Aang with the tiniest most carefulliest and gentelist tip of his claw.
> Also, energy bending falls neatly under the equivalence rule.



Well, seeing as I can no longer think of any move Narutoverse has against Avatarverse I guess Narutoverse does get raped.

Tempted to make a Bleachverse vs. Avatarverse thread though, with the same conditions as this one.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

I wouldn't do that if I were you.


----------



## Zoidberg (Jan 3, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> I wouldn't do that if I were you.



Maybe you're right. Wouldn't want to end up like Marth, after all.


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

Where are These thousands of bloodbends coming from I only remember seeing two in the series


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

We've already covered that.


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

I missed it reiterate it for me


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

Katara: Hey guys, why don't you try bending their blood!

Katara: Hey guys, watch me bend this guys blood!

Master level waterbenders can bloodbend if they know its possible. And considering that there's a shit-ton-crap-load of Avatars who are all master level as well as the Ocean Spirit....


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

oh so we're just giving people feats who've never displayed them, cool so what do they do against a thousand clones spamming rasengan and hiraishin who don't have blood


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

We're giving people legitimate benefit of the doubt that we know they can peform with little or no foreknowledge.

There's no special ritual involved in Bloodbending. It's just plain old waterbending used on blood.

Thousands of ninja can't learn and use Shadow Clones, Rasengan and Hiraishin unless given substantial prep-time and obscenely increased chakra levels.

Try again, skippy.

But to answer your question of what they would do: Same as they would do otherwise. Kill every ninja from here to Acapulco.


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

You missed the point on two levels, One i was specifically talking about naruto Who if we're giving people the benifit of the doubt would be using thousands of shadow clones rasengan and hiraishin, Two Thats strictly forbidden in the obd according to my understanding if they haven't shown it they can't use it


----------



## Platinum (Jan 3, 2009)

Bloodbending can only be done during a full moon.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

Naruto doesn't know Hiraishin and to my knowledge has never used more than one Rasengan at one time.

As for point two, *shrug* not like the Avatarverse needs bloodbenders to cockstomp the Narutoverse. Koh can take out like 90% of them without trying.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Giant Lion Turtle can baby rape them

Also, BloodBending needs not a full moon because this is Avatarverse, and the moon spirit is here backing her troops.

Also, Katara learned bloodbending on the spot by having little more than information on that she could. She does the same, so the effect is the same, therefore, teaching waterbenders to bloodbend is legit.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Hale said:


> You missed the point on two levels, One i was specifically talking about naruto Who if we're giving people the benifit of the doubt would be using thousands of shadow clones rasengan and hiraishin, Two Thats strictly forbidden in the obd according to my understanding if they haven't shown it they can't use it



Naruto can't o thousands of Kage bunshins, and this is in fact a highly forbiden jutsu that pretty much no one else can do more than one or two without risking death. How exclusive of naruto it is, is actually a huge plot point in the series.
So try again.


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

> Naruto doesn't know Hiraishin and to my knowledge has never used more than one Rasengan at one time.



The other waterbenders don't know bloodbending and have never used that techinque either.



> As for point two, *shrug* not like the Avatarverse needs bloodbenders to cockstomp the Narutoverse. Koh can take out like 90% of them without trying.


I didn't follow avatar past the third season so i'll have to look that up anyone want to link me to that ep


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

> Naruto can't o thousands of Kage bunshins, and this is in fact a highly forbiden jutsu that pretty much no one else can do more than one or two without risking death. How exclusive of naruto it is, is actually a huge plot point in the series.
> So try again.


Edit, This post wasn't nearly as sarcastic as it should have been so I wanted to change it to say "What?" and everyone makes clones in the series it doesn't matter what they're made of the point is they have no blood


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

> The other waterbenders don't know bloodbending and have never used that techinque either.



Difference between Hiraishin and blood bending:
1: Bloodbending doesn't require elaborate preparation. Hiraishin does.
2: There's no one to teach Naruto Hiraishin. There is someone to teach Bloodbending.



> So his mass kage bushin technique in part one never happened



He never made thousands of KBs to my memory.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Hale said:


> Edit, This post wasn't nearly as sarcastic as it should have been so I wanted to change it to say "What?" and everyone makes clones in the series it doesn't matter what they're made of the point is they have no blood



Everyone?

May I recall Kakashi saying "Gee, us normal folks can only make one or two clones at the time, but because you can make so many you have this super special awesome training that only you can have"

Or the Hokage fight, where they explain KB are so terrribly dangerous because you have to split chakra evenly amongs the copies and wich is why forbiden jutsu? It burns too much or else everyone would always use it all the time.

Wich is besides the point that no ridiculous amount of KB (that they cannot make) is gonna save narutoverse


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Aang crumbles a few pellets and stone machineguns narutoverse for a hillarious victory.
Surely stomps all the Kagebunshins

Among many other rapes


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

Lol at this line of debating, He teaches himself Hiraishin the same way He Improved the rasengan, Two the point of my line of reasoning is that there are only two bloodbenders in avatar, You can't just give them more


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

> He teaches himself Hiraishin the same way He Improved the rasengan



Yeeeeeah no. He doesn't know the basics required in the creation of Hiraishin and he doesn't have the time to do it, what with him being involved in a fight with the Avatarverse.



> the point of my line of reasoning is that there are only two bloodbenders in avatar, You can't just give them more



Can and do.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

I can but I won't because I don't need to.

Stone Machinegun solos. Roku's omnidirectional wave of steel vaporizing fire solos. opening up the ground and burying everyone in a nice lava death solos.
The only people that survive the first minute of battle on the narutoverse is the Eight Tails, wich giant lion turtle points and lols at or combustion man kills by thinking at.

Or many other techniques thousands of Avatars, any one of them solos for the most part will surely think of something nice and flashy.


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

> Everyone?
> 
> May I recall Kakashi saying "Gee, us normal folks can only make one or two clones at the time, but because you can make so many you have this super special awesome training that only you can have"
> 
> ...



Ah, no he did int


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

That proves nothing.


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

Close Enough to a thousand, Can you Show me thosands of waterbenders?

Edit

"It depends on the tree's species and age, but a mature, healthy tree
can have 200,000 leaves. During 60 years of life, such a tree would
grow and shed 3,600 pounds of leaves, returning about 70% of their
nutrients to the soil.

Probably more it looks like


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

That still proves nothing.

And though I don't recall ever making the claim to thousands, there are many many Avatars, a thousand by some accounts, but certainly more than enough to take out the Narutoverse. 

With all of them involved it's overkill given that Roku can solo, and that's not even mentioning all the Benders and Spirits and the previously mentioned Lion Turtle.


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

Well there were a few claims to thousands of bloodbenders I haven't kept up on avatar so i'm not gonna say roko can or cant solo them i'll get my self caught up, and that proves my point that naruto can make a thousand shadow clones.

Edit What ep does roku showcase his powers in


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

No it doesn't. Kakashi said he should make a clone for each leaf. That in no way proves that Naruto was able to do such.


----------



## tictactoc (Jan 3, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> No it doesn't. Kakashi said he should make a clone for each leaf. That in no way proves that Naruto was able to do such.



Is this some kind of sarcastic statement ?


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

He said Make this many then naruto made clones the link i provided says that the average tree has 200,000 leaves So let's give you the benifit of the doubt and say the the tree was half dead so it only had 100,000 then let's give you the futher benifit of the doubt and say that for some reason Naruto picks this one time in the series to be unable to do something he wants for the first time and say he only does 10% of what kakashi says thats still 10,000 clones


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

> Is this some kind of sarcastic statement ?


Either that or I'm being serious.



> Naruto picks this one time in the series to be unable to do something he wants for the first time



When was this first time?

And it doesn't matter what Kakashi says, Kakashi could tell Naruto to jump to the moon, doesn't mean he can.


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

This would be the first time he's done every thing else except save sasuke and it's coming we know it's coming, thats more then enough proof that he can make a thousand clones in court of law that would get you a conviction if you don't want to believe it you don't have too


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

This isn't a court of law. This is the OBD. It takes more than a picture of a tree and Kakashi saying "You need to make this many clones" to prove something.


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

Oh but every waterbender in avatar can bloodbend i see how that works


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

Not every waterbender just the master-level ones. Because the idea that master level waterbenders can bloodbend is supported by something more than character statements, unlike your claims that Naruto can create 53490523890482390452390582390482390423890 clones.


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

Supported by What exactly? can i see some evidence


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

Katara was able to learn bloodbending on the spot given nothing more than the knowledge that it was possible. And since Katara is not the Messiah be-all-end-all of waterbenders, this suggests that it's possible for someone other than Katara to learn it.

I'm not saying that this is definitely 100% what can and will happen, but it is a far more legitimate idea than "Naruto can create a jillion clones because Kakashi said he can"


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

Oh so what your saying is that your statements support the fact that they can bloodbend I'm supposed to take that over character statements, That makes sense, I concede.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

Character statements don't mean anything. Actual events from show canon do. 

Fact: Katara learned blood bending on the spot.
Fact: People can teach other people to waterbend.
Fact: Bloodbending is not unique to Katara.

These are not my statements these are actual canon. Given these facts it is reasonable to assume that it is possible for someone other than Katar to learn it.

People say that Haku was lightspeed or that Pain's Shinra Tensei is a nuke. Why should these be canon just because people say they are when there's no evidence to suggest that they are so?

You're just butthurt that your little arguments aren't working and trying to make it out that I am claiming that my opinions are automatically superior to yours.


----------



## Hale (Jan 3, 2009)

> Bloodbending is not unique to Katara.


hmm please name 3 people who bloodbend


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

I don't see any unleaf-ed tree here.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

there's also the fact that KB have the durability of a ballon.
Any  one of the thousands availuable airbending master solos all of them with one nasty gust, or a rock spray

And in case I haven't mentioned this, there are thousands availuable.


----------



## tictactoc (Jan 3, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Either that or I'm being serious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well it must be that, since if I remember well, we see a tree without any leaf on it, and each Naruto holding one in his palm. It can't be clearer, except if you wanted Kishimoto to show each Naruto taking one leaf off the tree, something completely retarded, for anyone with a sane mind.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

Hale said:


> hmm please name 3 people who bloodbend




I'll name you more than three people who are capable of bloodbending.

Katara, Hama, Pakku, Huu, Aang, Roku, Kyoshi, Kuruk, Yang-chen, La the Ocean Spirit. And then there's all the other Avatars that are as yet unnamed and the other master level waterbenders of whom Pakku can't be the only one in existence.

Not that bloodbending is necessary for the Avatarverse to win.



> since if I remember well, we see a tree without any leaf on it, and each Naruto holding one in his palm.



I'm not arguing that he didn't take the leaves off the tree, I'm arguing that he's not capable of creating an octillion Kage Bunshins.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

I'm pretty sure casually creating tens of thousands of KB would have sure came in handy in the fight against Sasuke or Kakuzu.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 3, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Then by that logic Hama used bloodbending meaning someone other than Katara is capable of bloodbending. Someone like Pakku. Or the hundreds and hundreds of Avatars. Or the Ocean Spirit.



That's because she fucking taught it to Katara. 

And there's no proof that other people besides Katara could successfully do it. Much less she doesn't even have the time to teach the water tribes how to do it.





Onomatopoeia said:


> Random but reasonable.



No it's not because there is absolutely no proof that anyone besides Katara and Hana can bloodbend.





Onomatopoeia said:


> Of course not, because they might not be aware of it. Hence Katara telling them that it's possible.



Which would do absolutely nothing since even if Katara did tell them. That doesn't mean they know how to do it.


----------



## icemaster143 (Jan 3, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> I'm pretty sure casually creating tens of thousands of KB would have sure came in handy in the fight against Sasuke or Kakuzu.



Of course it would have thats why Kishi uses PIS to make sure Naruto only uses the ability against someone who has a way to beat it.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

> And there's no proof that other people besides Katara could successfully do it


There's Hama. Thus, Katara is not the only person in the omniverse who can bloodbend.



> Much less she doesn't even have the time to teach the water tribes how to do it



What part of "There's nothing to teach" are you incapable of understanding? Are you really that stupid or are you just ignoring it to the end of provoking me? Because it's working.



> No it's not because there is absolutely no proof that anyone besides Katara and Hama can bloodbend.



No, but there is proof that waterbenders are capable of bending water. Which blood is mainly composed of.

This and the lack of any elborate technique involved suggests that it is possible that Katara is not the goddess of all water-bending capable of bending water on the other side of the omniverse and thus, waterbenders that are not Katara are capable of the same things she is, if given a tidbit of knowledge like "Hey! There's alot of water in blood."



> Which would do absolutely nothing since even if Katara did tell them. That doesn't mean they know how to do it.



Yeah, I can only imagine how hard it would be for master waterbenders to bend water. That must impossible!


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 3, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> There's Hama./ Thus, Katara is not the only person in the omniverse who can bloodbend.



Well yeah. Obviously there would have to be someone who knew it who could teach it to Katara. It was already established there were two bloodbenders in the entire avatar universe. Other than that you have absolutely nothing.





Onomatopoeia said:


> What part of "There's nothing to teach" are you incapable of understanding? Are you really that stupid or are you just ignoring it to the end of provoking me? Because it's working.



If there was nothing to teach then why did Katara even need to be taught? Even if Katara knew blood bending existed before that episode who's to say she could have done it without being shown or told how? That proves that it needs to be taught. If it didn't need to be then Hana had no purpose in the series.





Onomatopoeia said:


> No, but there is proof that waterbenders are capable of bending water. Which blood is mainly composed of.
> 
> This and the lack of any elborate technique involved suggests that it is possible that Katara is not the goddess of all water-bending capable of bending water on the other side of the omniverse and thus, waterbenders that are not Katara are capable of the same things she is, if given a tidbit of knowledge like "Hey! There's alot of water in blood."



Nobody is saying Katara is that great, but the fact stands that outside of Hana no one but Katara has shown the capability of bending blood period. You're just assuming that since Katara can do it all water benders can, but you're wrong. If they could all do it then why aren't there more blood benders in the canon? Why are there only two? You're the one who's saying it's so damn easy that it doesn't need to be taught. So why aren't there more? Obviously there should be water benders that could figure it out without having to be told by Katara.





Onomatopoeia said:


> Yeah, I can only imagine how hard it would be for master waterbenders to bend water. That must impossible!



And you're completely missing the point. I think it's funny how you're trying to make all waterbenders into bloodbenders because you think it gives the avatarverse an edge. Even with no ground to stand on.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Aethos said:


> That's because she fucking taught it to Katara.



If by teaching you mean 
Hama: Did you know when there's full moon, you can blood bend?
Katara: O RLY?
Hama: YA RLY
Katara: But I don't wanna do it
Hama: Do it
Katara: Okay *does it*


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 3, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> If by teaching you mean
> Hama: Did you know when there's full moon, you can blood bend?
> Katara: O RLY?
> Hama: YA RLY
> ...



It's still technically teaching it to her. Especially since Hana put Katara in the position where she had no choice but to do it.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

Aethos said:


> If there was nothing to teach then why did Katara even need to be taught?



She didn't need to be taught.  She just needed to be made aware that it was possible. She'd never considered it before Hama. There was no training montage, there was no elaborate instruction scene. There was just "You can bend blood by the way". 

Hama "taught" Katara by telling her things she could do with the power she already possessed. Or if you want to argue that, by example. Katara learned by watching Hama do it on Aang and Sokka. 

Given this and the previously established fact that Katara is about as important as a fart bubble, what's stopping Pakku from doing it? Or Aang? Or Kuruk? Roku? La?

I'll tell you what, nothing.




> If they could all do it then why aren't there more blood benders in the canon?



Several possible reasons, the leading one being that no one ever considered it before. Alternately, if they did, never bothered to use it because it was explicitly made up to be an evil act.

That and the fact that there are all of what? Ten waterbenders? that actually appeared on the show, and a fraction of which were master level.



> You're the one who's saying it's so damn easy that it doesn't need to be taught.



I'm not saying it's easy in general, I'm saying that Master waterbenders could learn it just as easily as Katara did. Being masters and all.




> And you're completely missing the point. I think it's funny how you're trying to make all waterbenders into bloodbenders because you think it gives the avatarverse an edge. Even with no ground to stand on.



As pointed out FIFTY FUCKING TIMES AL-FUCKING-READY, I'm saying MASTER LEVEL waterbenders can learn it. 

There's a difference between "All" and "All master levels" and no matter how much you want to build up that straw man it will never be true.

And again, as said already, it's not because I think it gives the Avatarverse an edge. They don't need an edge. They've already got it in the bag.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 3, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> She didn't need to be taught.  She just needed to be made aware that it was possible. She'd never considered it before Hama. There was no training montage, there was no elaborate instruction scene. There was just "You can bend blood by the way".
> 
> Hama "taught" Katara by telling her things she could do with the power she already possessed. Or if you want to argue that, by example. Katara learned by watching Hama do it on Aang and Sokka.
> 
> ...



And Hana forced Katara to use it too just to save Aang and Sokka. She was taught. 

Also where's your proof that they can do it? Aang was freakin' there during the whole thing. Why didn't he ever use bloodbending after that? Or even show that he could do it?






Onomatopoeia said:


> Several possible reasons, the leading one being that no one ever considered it before. Alternately, if they did, never bothered to use it because it was explicitly made up to be an evil act.



Okay then. Given that how many water benders would actually listen to Katara telling them to do an evil act then? Also what if Katara was killed before she even got the chance to tell them?





Onomatopoeia said:


> I'm not saying it's easy in general, I'm saying that Master waterbenders could learn it just as easily as Katara did. Being masters and all.



But they would need time. Which they don't have.



Onomatopoeia said:


> As pointed out FIFTY FUCKING TIMES AL-FUCKING-READY, I'm saying MASTER LEVEL waterbenders can learn it. There's a difference between "All" and "All master levels" and no matter how much you want to build up that straw man it will never be true.
> 
> And again, as said already, it's not because I think it gives the Avatarverse an edge. They don't need an edge. They've already got it in the bag.



Okay fine I'll concede that master water benders could learn it, however, answer me this. Say all master water benders could learn it. You think they could effectively pull it off the first time in the middle of a battle? I think not. Again they would need time that they don't have.

Hey all I'm doing is not underestimating the Narutoverse. No need to get pissy.


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## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Aethos said:


> It's still technically teaching it to her. Especially since Hana put Katara in the position where she had no choice but to do it.



So what? She didn't struggle, she didn't have to process it, she didn't try and fail. She learned in the half a second she had to stop Sokka from killing Aang. In one go. And she didn't even wanted to.
Take pis off and bam, there you have, your army of bloodbenders.
Even if you do bar it to masters only. even if you bar all waterbenders. Aang has the knowledge of it, therefore the avatar state has the knowledge of it, and all those avatars (of whom shall I repeat myself could each almost solo the narutoverse) are far less conscious about doing it.
Same thing for energy bending. Thousands of warriours who can just take Narutoverse's powers away.


----------



## Sasaki Kojirō (Jan 3, 2009)

Wow you know this place is fucked when Aethos is defending Naruto.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

> And Hama forced Katara to use it too just to save Aang and Sokka. She was taught.



Forced by making Katara use it on her to save Aang and Sokka. Katara was taught by example. Hama said "You can do this" and Katara did it.

Katara says "you can do this" and the master water benders can do it. See that?




> Aang was freakin' there during the whole thing. Why didn't he ever use bloodbending after that? Or even show that he could do it?



PIS. And again there's that whole "it's bad" thing.



> Given that how many water benders would actually listen to Katara telling them to do an evil act then?



The Avatars do what is necessary. They don't care about good and evil just balance. This was demonstrated by Yang-Chen who believes that killing is an evil act but is willing to do so if necessary. 

And Kyoshi who acknowledged that her killing of Chen the Conquerer was wrong but she did it anyway to protect lives.



> Also what if Katara was killed before she even got the chance to tell them?



By who? The ninjas who are being slaughtered by Koh? Or the firebenders? Are they going to explicitly seek out this insignificant girl instead of attacking the old master dude who is clearly more intimidating?




> But they would need time. Which they don't have.



What? All of five seconds like it took for Katara to use it?



> Say all master water benders could learn it. You think they could effectively pull it off the first time in the middle of a battle?



Katara did. Why is she suddenly so much stronger willed than the Avatar or the Spirit of the Ocean?


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Aethos said:


> Okay fine I'll concede that master water benders could learn it, however, answer me this. Say all master water benders could learn it. You think they could effectively pull it off the first time in the middle of a battle? I think not. Again they would need time that they don't have.
> 
> Hey all I'm doing is not underestimating the Narutoverse. No need to get pissy.



Katara did. And Hama didn't teach her special techniques or energy flow to grasp things never seen before. She just said, "there's water in blood, bend it"


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## Amatsu (Jan 3, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Katara did. And Hama didn't teach her special techniques or energy flow to grasp things never seen before. She just said, "there's water in blood, bend it"





> Forced by making Katara use it on her to save Aang and Sokka. Katara was taught by example. Hama said "You can do this" and Katara did it.
> 
> Katara says "you can do this" and the master water benders can do it. See that?



Hana was as much of a teacher as Sokka's sword master in my view, but that's just opinion I suppose. Granted Sokka's did more for him I suppose, but even so it was a teacher/student relationship.



> PIS. And again there's that whole "it's bad" thing.



PIS is no excuse, and the idea that it's bad never stopped Katara the few times she actually used it after that episode.



> The Avatars do what is necessary. They don't care about good and evil just balance. This was demonstrated by Yang-Chen who believes that killing is an evil act but is willing to do so if necessary.
> 
> And Kyoshi who acknowledged that her killing of Chen the Conquerer was wrong but she did it anyway to protect lives.



But we're talking about Katara talking to other waterbenders not Avatars. Who's to say they would follow that same principal?


> By who? The ninjas who are being slaughtered by Koh? Or the firebenders? Are they going to explicitly seek out this insignificant girl instead of attacking the old master dude who is clearly more intimidating?



Well gee considering Team Aang will most likely be on the front lines it makes it quite easy for Katara to be picked off along with the others, and if Narutoverse fodder doesn't do it. Then a mid to high tier Naruto character will.



> What? All of five seconds like it took for Katara to use it?



Again it's different. Katara was being purposefully tested to use it. The water bending masters will already be in a fight to the death with a significantlly equal or stronger universe speed and technique wise. You really think it's the same circumstances? Katara can yell it all she wants but if they don't have a chance to actually use it then it means absolutely nothing. You're giving waterbenders far too much credit.


> Katara did. Why is she suddenly so much stronger willed than the Avatar or the Spirit of the Ocean?



Again the circumstances are different, and no one is saying that she's stronger willed than anyone.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

> PIS is no excuse



Yes it is. That's why the term exists in the first place. No one likes it but it's there. It was a Katara in the spotlight episode. Of course Aang isn't going to go all Avatar State and kill the shit out of Hama.



> and the idea that it's bad never stopped Katara the few times she actually used it after that episode.



Difference between Aang and Katara: Katara is a bitch, Aang is a monk dedicated to preserving life.



> But we're talking about Katara talking to other waterbenders not Avatars. Who's to say they would follow that same principal?



So all of a sudden Avatars can't bend water?



> Katara can yell it all she wants but if they don't have a chance to actually use it then it means absolutely nothing. You're giving waterbenders far too much credit.



The Avatars know she knows what she's talking about. La would know. Pakku would accept her judgement. Why wouldn't they listen to this prodigy water-bender who helped save the world? Why would they ignore her when she said "Hey guys, there's water in blood."



> Again the circumstances are different, and no one is saying that she's stronger willed than anyone.



Katara used bloodbending because she didn't want Aang and Sokka to die. The Waterbenders will use it because they don't want their friends to die. What's different?


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 3, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Yes it is. That's why the term exists in the first place. No one likes it but it's there. It was a Katara in the spotlight episode. Of course Aang isn't going to go all Avatar State and kill the shit out of Hama.



No I meant PIS is no excuse. Aang should have been able to bloodbend as well from that episode onwards, and yet he never showed signs that he could.

You know what? I'm going to backpedal a bit. bloodbending to Katara is the same as metalbending was to Toph. It was designed specifically for them. That's PIS as well until proven otherwise. If you wanna use PIS.





> Difference between Aang and Katara: Katara is a bitch, Aang is a monk dedicated to preserving life.



She uses it because she's a bitch? wat?





> So all of a sudden Avatars can't bend water?




WTF? I didn't say that at all. I said she's talking to other non-Avatar waterbenders. Where do you even get the idea that I implied avatars couldn't waterbend?




> The Avatars know she knows what she's talking about. La would know. Pakku would accept her judgement. Why wouldn't they listen to this prodigy water-bender who helped save the world? Why would they ignore her when she said "Hey guys, there's water in blood."



So Katara would have time during the battle to run and tell them? Also because it's an evil act. There is every reason why they wouldn't want to listen. Unlike the Narutoverse the Avatarverse does take it's forbidden techniques rather seriously.



> Katara used bloodbending because she didn't want Aang and Sokka to die. The Waterbenders will use it because they don't want their friends to die. What's different?



The difference is that Hana knew Katara was a prodigy and needed to be pushed in order to bloodbend. Can you really say someone like Pakku has the same potential to use it as effectively? You're turning blood bending into a skill that anyone can instantly master.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Ok, Aethos, what part of this Rape thread are you having the most problems coping with?


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

Aethos said:


> No I meant PIS is no excuse. Aang should have been able to bloodbend as well from that episode onwards, and yet he never showed signs that he could.



Yes, that would be the "Monk dedicated to preserving life" thing.



> She uses it because she's a bitch? wat?



No(well, yes, I do think she's a bitch) but Aang is an Airbender. All life is sacred and all that. Bloodbending was touted as a bad thing.

So no, Aang won't use it.





> WTF? I didn't say that at all. I said she's talking to other non-Avatar waterbenders. Where do you even get the idea that I implied avatars couldn't waterbend?



Musta been a misinterpretation on my part. Backstepping a bit:

Why should waterbenders follow the principal of "Do what has to be done"? Because the Avatar tells them to that's why. Why do they do what the Avatar says? Because the Avatar is the Avatar.



> So Katara would have time during the battle to run and tell them?


 I don't see why not, considering the ninjas are too busy having the shit killed out of them.




> Also because it's an evil act. There is every reason why they wouldn't want to listen. Unlike the Narutoverse the Avatarverse does take it's forbidden techniques rather seriously.



Do what has to be done. Because the Avatar says so. Because the Avatar is the Avatar.




> The difference is that Hama knew Katara was a prodigy and needed to be pushed in order to bloodbend.



A personal failing. Katara wasn't willing to do something that went against her basic caring nature. Not when Hama forced her to use it anyway.

This had no effect on her ability to do it in the first place.




> Can you really say someone like Pakku has the same potential to use it as effectively?




A master is a master. Hama was not set up to be the best of the best of the best. She wasn't some prodigy that made people think that Hard Work Hardly Works. She figured out it was possible and then she used it.

Give a samurai a katana he'll use it. Give him a dao saber and while he won't be able to use it to the same extent as a man who specially trained to wield a dao saber he'll still be able to put it to good use.

Give Pakku the knowledge that bloodbending is possible and he'll be able to make use of this knowledge, even if he can't control large groups of people like Hama can.


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## Amatsu (Jan 3, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Yes, that would be the "Monk dedicated to preserving life" thing.



When did Katara ever kill anyone with it?

There you go. No excuse.





> No(well, yes, I do think she's a bitch) but Aang is an Airbender. All life is sacred and all that. Bloodbending was touted as a bad thing.
> 
> So no, Aang won't use it.



Why not? He could use it to incapacitate enemies? It's not like he has to kill them using it.







> Musta been a misinterpretation on my part. Backstepping a bit:
> 
> Why should waterbenders follow the principal of "Do what has to be done"? Because the Avatar tells them to that's why. Why do they do what the Avatar says? Because the Avatar is the Avatar.
> 
> I don't see why not, considering the ninjas are too busy having the shit killed out of them.



Granted I can't speak for the fire, air, and earth grounded avatars. But avatars born in the water tribes I would think still would be against it based solely on it being an evil act, and forbidden.

Also if the Avatars are so freakin' powerful. They wouldn't even need bloodbending anyways. So that pretty much crosses them out of the equation. Leaving regular waterbenders.

Also I think the avatars would be too busy fighting the high tier characters to give a speech on doing what needs to be done. Even if they could regular waterbenders may not accept that principal anyways. It may be what the avatars follow, but that doesn't mean that everyone would follow it.





> Do what has to be done. Because the Avatar says so. Because the Avatar is the Avatar.



Which is fine and good since the avatars are all about balance, but as we've seen in the series. Other people in the avatarverse don't really believe in that sort of advice. Besides not everyone listens to the avatars that also has been shown.



> A personal failing. Katara wasn't willing to do something that went against her basic caring nature. Not when Hama forced her to use it anyway.
> 
> This had no effect on her ability to do it in the first place.



But Katara is also shown to be a prodigy though. Not all waterbenders are as gifted as she was thus it may have come easy to her, but it may not to waterbenders with less potential.







> A master is a master. Hama was not set up to be the best of the best of the best. She wasn't some prodigy that made people think that Hard Work Hardly Works. She figured out it was possible and then she used it.
> 
> Give a samurai a katana he'll use it. Give him a dao saber and while he won't be able to use it to the same extent as a man who specially trained to wield a dao saber he'll still be able to put it to good use.
> 
> Give Pakku the knowledge that bloodbending is possible and he'll be able to make use of this knowledge, even if he can't control large groups of people like Hama can.



Well she did compare Katara to herself if I recall.

But I'll at least give  you this one.


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## Narcissus (Jan 3, 2009)

Aethos, since when did bloodbending become the only manner of salvation for the Avatarverse?  If you're so hardpressed for other waterbenders not to bloodbend (which I find possible) then that's fine; Koh and the dragons would be enough.

In the link I posted it shows Avatars making volcanos erupt, making powerful wind gales, and tsunamis.  There are thousands.  That, and Baumi is a citybender and Toph is quite dangerous.  Arguing one point in this debate does not win you the match when there are so many others.

You're hanging on by a thread, and trust me, you're about to fall.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

Aethos said:


> When did Katara ever kill anyone with it?
> 
> There you go. No excuse.



What are you blathering on about?




> Why not? He could use it to incapacitate enemies? It's not like he has to kill them using it.



You can incapacitate people with a gun or a sword, you don't have to kill them with it.

It's not a technicality Aang is willing to recognize.



> Granted I can't speak for the fire, air, and earth grounded avatars. But avatars born in the water tribes I would think still would be against it based solely on it being an evil act, and forbidden.



Kuruk was Water Tribe. He advocated doing whatever it took to preserve the balance. Kuruk will do what he feels he has to do, even if it means commiting evil acts. Yangchen said this is what it means to be an Avatar.



> Even if they could regular waterbenders may not accept that principal anyways. It may be what the avatars follow, but that doesn't mean that everyone would follow it.



Ok, so they won't listen to the Avatar. Would they listen to La? The guy that gave them their waterbending in the first place? Their god? Divine right. 

Would the Waterbenders disobey him if he told them to do what they had to do to win?



> Also I think the avatars would be too busy fighting the high tier characters to give a speech on doing what needs to be done.



There are a handful of high tier Naruto characters vs a shitload of Avatars. 

First of all: How long do you really think they'll last? Honestly?
Second: Not all the Avatars have to be fighting.




> Which is fine and good since the avatars are all about balance, but as we've seen in the series. Other people in the avatarverse don't really believe in that sort of advice. Besides not everyone listens to the avatars that also has been shown.



That's ok, the Avatars are capable of dealing with the Narutoverse on their own, even without the help of normal benders.

There's no kill like overkill and if you've got bloodbending and extra benders you use them.




> But Katara is also shown to be a prodigy though. Not all waterbenders are as gifted as she was thus it may have come easy to her, but it may not to waterbenders with less potential.



If Pakku didn't have potential he wouldn't be a master.


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## Amatsu (Jan 3, 2009)

Disorderly Conduct said:


> Aethos, since when did bloodbending become the only manner of salvation for the Avatarverse?  If you're so hardpressed for other waterbenders not to bloodbend (which I find possible) then that's fine; Koh and the dragons would be enough.
> 
> In the link I posted it shows Avatars making volcanos erupt, making powerful wind gales, and tsunamis.  There are thousands.  That, and Baumi is a citybender and Toph is quite dangerous.  Arguing one point in this debate does not win you the match when there are so many others.
> 
> You're hanging on by a thread, and trust me, you're about to fall.



I don't think Bloodbending is the only salvation, but whatever. I'm done. I already knew I couldn't possibly win against members of the One Piece defense force. I only kept at it out of stubborness.

I'm still saying though that as much as I love Avatar and I do love it more than Naruto. I still have to disagree that the Avatarverse would win. Heck the fire country needs a comet to bust a fucking continent. That just proves how weak benders are at their base. The Narutoverse carries a ton of country busters, and honestly I don't see the Avatars surviving against the high tier Naruto characters. No matter how impressive the avatars feats were. I'm not saying the avatarverse can't put up a good fitht, but it won't be good enough.

The only reason I'm arguing for the Narutoverse is because it's being extremely underestimated in this fight by people who just want to see the Narutoverse lose another OBD fight. It is the only reason I decided to argue in this thread.


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## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2009)

Narutoverse dosen't carry a single country buster.
Their strongest fuck without a bijuu is not even a village buster.
While cometless firebenders are a little on the downside of the powerscale, cometpowered blow any of their feats out of the water, and in this thread you have thousands of Avatars who have one piece and greater level of destruction.
So, please don't.


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## Amatsu (Jan 3, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Narutoverse dosen't carry a single country buster.
> Their strongest fuck without a bijuu is not even a village buster.
> While cometless firebenders are a little on the downside of the powerscale, cometpowered blow any of their feats out of the water, and in this thread you have thousands of Avatars who have one piece and greater level of destruction.
> So, please don't.



If Sasori could fuck up a country then chances are people stronger than him could as well..

And how the fuck do Avatar feats even come close to One Piece feats. That's stretching it by a lot.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 3, 2009)

A: Sasori claimed to be able to take out a country. Given that he was defeated by an old lady and a pink-haired yaoi-fangirl, that must have been a weaksauce country, hardly worthy of mentioning as a defining feat.
And B: Attacking a country with an army and country busting are two very different things.


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## Narcissus (Jan 3, 2009)

Just like to point out that Sasori let himself be defeated.  And to bust something, you need to do it in one shot.  

Also, saying the Narutoverse would win without stating how they'll defeat Koh and the dragons isn't a very good case, that and the fact that avatars have bent lava.


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## Amatsu (Jan 3, 2009)

Disorderly Conduct said:


> Just like to point out that Sasori let himself be defeated.  And to bust something, you need to do it in one shot.
> 
> Also, saying the Narutoverse would win without stating how they'll defeat Koh and the dragons isn't a very good case, that and the fact that avatars have bent lava.



Well for the dragons. If Iroh can beat them then the Narutoverse obviously can, but to put up a more plausible argument. I say the boss summons could flatten the dragons. As for Koh I could see him being taken down by ninja who formulated a plan of attack after seeing what he's capable of. Koh's not exactly invincible either. The Narutoverse just has to show no weakness around him.

Akatsuki alone could probably take Koh down. Deidara's suicide bomb would probably destroy Koh no problem. Also you think Koh wouldn't be susceptable to Itachi? Even if Itachi lost to Koh he could Amaterasu him which would pretty much finish the job anyways.

In either case there you go.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 4, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> <something about Master Water benders being able to Blood bend>



Is it that hard of a concept to understand that unless they've shown the ability in the actual series, you can't use it in an argument?



> <something about Dragons & Koh>



Shukaku, Kyuubi, Bunta & other similar beings would stomp them horribly.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 4, 2009)

Thread still up?

It's actually pretty difficult to think of a Naruto character who can't solo this universe, who is actually semi-main and not just random offscreen fodder most of the time.

I know for a sure fact Gai solos this shit.


----------



## Purgatory (Jan 4, 2009)

Is the Avatarverse able to take on Chou Shinra Tensei, large summons, soul-ripping, chakra absorbing (assuming chi = chakra), and the such?


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## Zoidberg (Jan 4, 2009)

Purgatory said:


> Is the Avatarverse able to take on Chou Shinra Tensei, large summons, soul-ripping, chakra absorbing (assuming chi = chakra), and the such?



All those were addressed in the earlier parts of the thread.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 4, 2009)

Purgatory said:


> Is the Avatarverse able to take on Chou Shinra Tensei, large summons, soul-ripping, chakra absorbing (assuming chi = chakra), and the such?



No. Their Speed and Power are pretty Tier 1 and they have a few decent C-Rank techniques. That's about it.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 4, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> I know for a sure fact Gai solos this shit.



And by the logic of some people in this thread, he could do so by *Dynamic **Rasengan* *Entry*. Just because he's a ninja who can control his chakra, just like Naruto (better even).

*On a side note*
Gai can't solo the entire verse.


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## Hale (Jan 4, 2009)

Hmm narutoverse reinforcements .... I think all the responses i was gonna make were covered by nihonjin and aethos so i'm just gonna sit here and twiddle my thumbs while i wait for a response... i'm posting out of sheer bordom for now


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 4, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> Thread still up?
> 
> It's actually pretty difficult to think of a Naruto character who can't solo this universe, who is actually semi-main and not just random offscreen fodder most of the time.
> 
> I know for a sure fact Gai solos this shit.





> No. Their Speed and Power are pretty Tier 1 and they have a few decent C-Rank techniques. That's about it.





No one, I repeat, _no one_, from Naruto is soloing the Avatarverse.  You, sir, need to watch a little more Avatar.  The day C-rank techniques are the same as plugging volcanoes, cracking continents, and causing tsunamis is the day that the Narutoverse can beat the OPverse.

While I'm pro-Avatar, and I think thousands of Avatars would definitely overpower and crush the Narutoverse, I'll play devil's advocate for a bit.

As for the argument pertaining to bloodbending:  Yes, the master waterbenders could probably learn bloodbending.  But OBD rules are OBD rules.  We can't discuss them doing it unless they've actually done it before.

As for Koh:  Koh is certainly formidable, but we know little about him.  And what we do know isn't helpful:  He isn't particularly fast (Aang showed some emotion while Koh was turned away, and Koh couldn't turn around fast enough before Aang had a blank face again), his technique isn't actually deadly (a monkey was sitting outside Koh's lair when Aang came, and nothing was wrong about it, except that it was missing a face.)  Losing your face is certainly a very bad thing, but just how, we don't exactly know.  Koh would be a problem to the Narutoverse, but he can't solo or anything.

As for dragons:  Keep in mind, there is a grand total of 2 dragons alive right now.  They can't take out all the summons, much less the whole Narutoverse, by themselves.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 4, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> -snip-



Oh boy, am I seeing this right?! You're pro-Avatar, but you're using common sense? I've gotta buy myself a lottery ticket today! I thought your kind was long extinct! 

No but really, if you can't convince Onowhatshisname to stop it with his Blood bending madness, I'm not even going to bother opening this thread anymore. (Which he'll probably count as a win )


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 4, 2009)

> his technique isn't actually deadly (a monkey was sitting outside Koh's lair when Aang came, and nothing was wrong about it, except that it was missing a face.)



You do realize that Koh's lair is in the Spirit World right? You know, that place people go when they die?

And that Kuruk was pissed off specifically because Koh's tech killed his girlfriend?




> Koh would be a problem to the Narutoverse, but he can't solo or anything.





> As for dragons: Keep in mind, there is a grand total of 2 dragons alive right now. They can't take out all the summons, much less the whole Narutoverse, by themselves.



Well, I'd argue about them not being able to take out all the summons, but that's a long long stretch of bad road that I don't want to get into. Other than that I'll give you.



Nihonjin said:


> <Tired old argument that's long been put down?>



*shrug* Not like it matters either way. Avatarverse still wins. I'm just arguing bloodbending on the No Kill Like Overkill principle.





> Shukaku, Kyuubi, Bunta & other similar beings would stomp them horribly.



Ha. Oh that's good. You've just proven that nothing you have to say is remotely worth reading, you're clearly too biased. *Blocks demented fanboy*.


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 4, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> You do realize that Koh's lair is in the Spirit World right? You know, that place people go when they die?
> 
> And that Kuruk was pissed off specifically because Koh's tech killed his girlfriend?



Where was it stated that the Spirit World is where people go when they die?  As far as we know, it's simply a realm for spirits.  We've never seen dead people there, aside from avatars.

As for Kuruk's wife (not girlfriend, they were having a wedding) getting killed, well, we don't exactly know what happened to her.  She was taken into the spirit world by Koh, who took her face.  We don't know the actual details about her death aside from that.



> Ha. Oh that's good. You've just proven that nothing you have to say is remotely worth reading, you're clearly too biased. *Blocks demented fanboy*.



Ono, can you elaborate just how you expect 2 dragons and 1 face stealing spirit to beat all the summons and bijuus?  Nihonjin's statement looked alright to me. Since Koh and the dragons would be seriously outnumbered and overpowered, the burden of proof falls on you to prove how they would win.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 4, 2009)

> Where was it stated that the Spirit World is where people go when they die? As far as we know, it's simply a realm for spirits. We've never seen dead people there, aside from avatars.



One naturally assumes that the Spirit World is where peoples' spirits go when they die. 
The absence of people may suggest that this is not the case or perhaps there were simply no people in that particular area.




> As for Kuruk's wife (not girlfriend, they were having a wedding) getting killed, well, we don't exactly know what happened to her. She was taken into the spirit world by Koh, who took her face. We don't know the actual details about her death aside from that.



He took her.
He stole her face.
He killed her, which may or may not be related to his theft of her face.
Kuruk was incapable of either finding or killing Koh. Probably the latter considering how easy it was for Aang to locate Koh and that Kuruk apparently went to the Spirit Realm every year to try and rescue his wife.

If Koh's face-stealing were some sort of weaksauce thing, he wouldn't have been presented as being as dangerous as he was so it's reasonable to assume that it may incapacitate his victims in some way, possibly including death.



> Since Koh and the dragons would be seriously outnumbered and overpowered, the burden of proof falls on you to prove how they would win.



Outnumbered yes. Outpowered arguable. If Koh can provide a serious threat to the Avatar, what's he got to worry about from a bunch of giant animals?

Dragons just burn them all to death. Frog legs anyone?

As for the Bijuus, it's not necessary that the Dragons and Koh face them alone, simply that the Dragons and Koh are present for the battle and a significant force thereof. 

If for some reason they find themselves incapable of fighting Killer Bee(Shukaku gets glassed, the other Bijuus are.....just ignorable and Naruto isn't going to draw on the Kyuubi chakra at all so he's out of the picture, they've got plenty of reinforcments.

I'm not saying that it would be an easy fight but the summons and the Bijuu will most certainly not "stomp them horribly" and it is idiotic even by Nihonjin's obscenely high standards of idiocy to suggest such.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 4, 2009)

Purgatory said:


> Is the Avatarverse able to take on Chou Shinra Tensei, large summons, soul-ripping, chakra absorbing (assuming chi = chakra), and the such?



Apparently it's argued that the Avatarverse is on the level of the One Pieceverse, or even higher than that.



> He took her.
> He stole her face.
> He killed her, which may or may not be related to his theft of her face.
> Kuruk was incapable of either finding or killing Koh. Probably the latter considering how easy it was for Aang to locate Koh and that Kuruk apparently went to the Spirit Realm every year to try and rescue his wife.
> ...



Okay so what will Koh do against Madara? Tell me that.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 4, 2009)

Yes, Aethos. That's exactly what's being argued. The Avatarverse is more powerful than Marvelverse, Bastard!verse, DCverse, TTGLverse, StarWarsverse, StarTrekverse, every ForgottenRealmsverse AND WH40Kverse all put together and multiplied by five trillion. And no that is not an exageration, we are literally arguing that the Avatarverse is stronger than those verse were they put together and multiplied by the actual number five trillion.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 4, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Yes, Aethos. That's exactly what's being argued. The Avatarverse is more powerful than Marvelverse, Bastard!verse, DCverse, TTGLverse, StarWarsverse, StarTrekverse, every ForgottenRealmsverse AND WH40Kverse all put together and multiplied by five trillion. And no that is not an exageration, we are literally arguing that the Avatarverse is stronger than those verse were they put together and multiplied by the actual number five trillion.



Do you think that by exaggerating what I said it makes you sound witty? I specifically heard in this thread that the Avatarverse is on the One Pieceverse's level or even higher just because of the feats of Roku or Kyoshi.

And answer my question. What will Koh do against Madara?


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 4, 2009)

> Do you think that by exaggerating what I said it makes you sound witty?



No, just sarcastic.


> And answer my question. What will Koh do against Madara?





> Okay so what will Koh do against Madara? Tell me that.



Well, he's Koh the Face Stealer. So I'm going to say that, as a spirit that is known as the Face Stealer, he would try and _steal_ Madara's _face_. 
*LE GASPZORZ*

Failing that, leave him for someone else to try and deal with.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 4, 2009)

Aethos said:


> If Sasori could fuck up a country then chances are people stronger than him could as well..
> 
> And how the fuck do Avatar feats even come close to One Piece feats. That's stretching it by a lot.



1 Sasori claimed but then was pwnt by much less than buildingbusting
2 Taking down countries includes just killing the king
3 By your logic, Storm is a planetbuster.


Aang in two seconds of avatar state sinked a forest into the ocean. Shinra Tensei dosen't bust a village

Thousands of these motherfuckers here.
Get a clue.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 4, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> No, just sarcastic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And how's he going to steal Madara's face when he can't even touch Madara?


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 4, 2009)

Aethos said:


> And how's he going to steal Madara's face when he can't even touch Madara?



:rofl

Faildara?  What are you babbling about?


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 4, 2009)

> And how's he going to steal Madara's face when he can't even touch Madara?



Ignoring the inherent idioicy of that question, I refer you to this:



> Failing that, leave him for someone else to try and deal with


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 4, 2009)

Aethos said:


> And how's he going to steal Madara's face when he can't even touch Madara?



I'm sorry, is this sarcasm?


Is his soul intangible to spirits now?


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 4, 2009)

Any one of the thousands of Avatars takes madara's powers awy.


What else?


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 4, 2009)

Yeah. I'm done. This level of bias faggotry is a little too much for me.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 4, 2009)

Yeah, you gonna want to apologize for that now.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 4, 2009)

Nope. That's pretty much my opinion on this thread at this point.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 4, 2009)

Butthurt much?


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 4, 2009)

Aethos said:


> Nope. That's pretty much my opinion on this thread at this point.



You can do whatever the hell you want with your opinion but you do not throw that word at me.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 4, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Butthurt much?



Heh oh yeah. Because not being on the side of the One Piece Defense Force automatically makes you butthurt. 

Gladly think what you want.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 4, 2009)

You sure you don't want to take the chance to rephrase your comments?


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 4, 2009)

This is just sad from any perspective, and yeah I'm sure I don't want to rephrase what is essentially the truth.


----------



## BAD BD (Jan 4, 2009)

My butt hurts.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 4, 2009)

OH BAD U SO FUNNEH!


----------



## BAD BD (Jan 4, 2009)

Aethos said:


> OH BAD U SO FUNNEH!



Thank you, my friend.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 4, 2009)

Aethos said:


> This is just sad from any perspective, and yeah I'm sure I don't want to rephrase what is essentially the truth.



I don't really give a darn about your perspective right now, I had a bad day and I am not in the mood to take this from you.
You will now apologize for throwing ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) at me, or just leave with whatever consequences this might bring for the future.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 4, 2009)

BAD BD said:


> Thank you, my friend.



You're very welcome. 



> I don't really give a darn about your perspective right now, I had a bad day and I am not in the mood to take this from you.
> You will now apologize for throwing ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) at me, or just leave with whatever consequences this might bring for the future.



Who said anything about me throwing that word at you? If I'm going to throw it at you I'll say your name, and then throw it at you. 

So I have nothing to apologize for.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 4, 2009)

Not cool Aethos, not cool


----------



## Shock Therapy (Jan 4, 2009)

This thread is not cool. It reeks of Narutoverse getting their asses whupped again and again and again... And possibly again


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 4, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> One naturally assumes that the Spirit World is where peoples' spirits go when they die.



Naturally, but we've seen the spirit world, and there weren't any people there. So it became a little less assuming, and a little more knowing.



> The absence of people may suggest that this is not the case or perhaps there were simply no people in that particular area.



Stop making things up to support your argument.



> If Koh's face-stealing were some sort of weaksauce thing, he wouldn't have been presented as being as dangerous as he was so it's reasonable to assume that it may incapacitate his victims in some way, possibly including death.



Weaksauce, dangerous, both statements are _relative_. I'm sure he's a lot stronger than your average human, but that doesn't mean he's a serious threat to everyone he faces. It's relative.



> Outnumbered yes. Outpowered arguable. If Koh can provide a serious threat to the Avatar, what's he got to worry about from a bunch of giant animals?



Arguably Outpowered? What's the greatest feat both the Dragons & Koh have? Dragons make pretty fire, Koh steals human faces and kills regular Humans.

There is absolutely _nothing_ to suggest they can hold their own against things as huge and powerful as the tailed beasts & Summons.



> Dragons just burn them all to death. Frog legs anyone?



Proof please? Because I don't remember them showing anything to suggest they can hurt Bunta or take his attacks.



> As for the Bijuus, it's not necessary that the Dragons and Koh face them alone, simply that the Dragons and Koh are present for the battle and a significant force thereof.



Again, what can they do?

Ok, they're big, which counts for absolutely nothing. Not to mention they're not nearly as big as the Bijuu & other summons. They have no feats other than swirly colored fire and apparently stealing normal human & animal faces. Not exactly the threat you're making them out to be. 

They'd get annihilated.



> If for some reason they find themselves incapable of fighting Killer Bee(*Shukaku gets glassed, the other Bijuus are.....just ignorable* and Naruto isn't going to draw on the Kyuubi chakra at all so he's out of the picture, they've got plenty of reinforcments.



You're butt-fishing again aren't you? Didn't I tell you to stop doing that?



> I'm not saying that it would be an easy fight but the summons and the Bijuu will most certainly not "stomp them horribly" and it is idiotic even by Nihonjin's obscenely high standards of idiocy to suggest such.



If what I'm saying is so idiotic, you should be able to refute my arguments.
So give it your best shot.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 4, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Not cool Aethos, not cool



Tough.

(ten characters)


----------



## ichimaru17 (Jan 4, 2009)

i have a question:

how did a rape thread last 15 pages?


----------



## C. Hook (Jan 4, 2009)

ichimaru17 said:


> i have a question:
> 
> how did a rape thread last 15 pages?



Haruhitards? 

Tony?


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 4, 2009)

I tend to think this thread has continued because some people actually believe the Narutoverse could win this fight fair and square.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 4, 2009)

By the same token, some people believe the world is flat.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 4, 2009)

Well considering I like Avatar more than Naruto. It's not like I was defending the Narutoverse out of spite.

And that's just a stupid comparison.


----------



## BAD BD (Jan 4, 2009)

I would contribute, but I only saw  a few episodes of avatar and the unimpressive final fights of the series.


----------



## the box (Jan 5, 2009)

cant some bender split contentes or somthin its an absoulut stomp in the avatar verse favor


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 5, 2009)

the box said:


> cant some bender split contentes or somthin its an absoulut stomp in the avatar verse favor



It's not like she did it with raw power or anything. I really don't think it was as impressive as you guys make it seem.


----------



## nordic (Jan 5, 2009)

Killer Bee solos...


----------



## Lord Stark (Jan 5, 2009)

Narutoverse has _thousands_ of Shinobi under the command of the five kages alone, thousands more from the less significant villages.  Total you could have over a _hundred thousand_ ninja attacking.  As well as ridiculously uber people like the main characters and villains.  Not to mention the villages.  Naruto wins little difficulty.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jan 5, 2009)

it's like watching demented jackals....


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 5, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> One naturally assumes that the Spirit World is where peoples' spirits go when they die.
> The absence of people may suggest that this is not the case or perhaps there were simply no people in that particular area.



Still, we have no solid reason to believe this, so it can't be used to support arguments.



> He took her.
> He stole her face.
> He killed her, which may or may not be related to his theft of her face.
> Kuruk was incapable of either finding or killing Koh. Probably the latter considering how easy it was for Aang to locate Koh and that Kuruk apparently went to the Spirit Realm every year to try and rescue his wife.
> ...



I know, I know, it's dangerous; we just don't know how.  As I said, he isn't fast, so probably a lot of Naruto characters would be able to avoid him.




> Outnumbered yes. Outpowered arguable. If Koh can provide a serious threat to the Avatar, what's he got to worry about from a bunch of giant animals?



Well, here's why Koh was a threat to the Avatar but wouldn't be so much to Bijuus and summons.

1.  Aang couldn't bend in the Spirit World
2.  Koh was 20x his size.
3.  All it took was one slip-up for him to go down.

In this case, the bijuus and summons have their powers, are bigger than Koh, and have bigger faces.  Can Koh even steal a face the size of Gama Bunta?  Maybe not.  I'd certainly say he can't steal Kyuubi's face.



> Dragons just burn them all to death. Frog legs anyone?



And just what about the dragons' firebreath suggest they are that power?



> As for the Bijuus, it's not necessary that the Dragons and Koh face them alone, simply that the Dragons and Koh are present for the battle and a significant force thereof.
> 
> If for some reason they find themselves incapable of fighting Killer Bee(Shukaku gets glassed, the other Bijuus are.....just ignorable and Naruto isn't going to draw on the Kyuubi chakra at all so he's out of the picture, they've got plenty of reinforcments.



Shukaku's supposed to be the _weakest_ bijuu.  And are we talking free Bijuus or bijuus in hosts?  Anyways, the bijuus still crush Koh and dragons.



> I'm not saying that it would be an easy fight but the summons and the Bijuu will most certainly not "stomp them horribly" and it is idiotic even by Nihonjin's obscenely high standards of idiocy to suggest such.



I disagree.



			
				Nihonjin said:
			
		

> It's not like she did it with raw power or anything. I really don't think it was as impressive as you guys make it seem.



What's impressive is that no one in Naruto has ever done anything close to it.  And yes, she did it with raw power.  How else do you think she moved the island?



			
				Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:
			
		

> Narutoverse has thousands of Shinobi under the command of the five kages alone, thousands more from the less significant villages. Total you could have over a hundred thousand ninja attacking. As well as ridiculously uber people like the main characters and villains. Not to mention the villages. Naruto wins little difficulty.



Can I get some proof on that "Hundred thousand" number?  Thousands is believable, but a hundred thousand?

And the Avatarverse has tens of thousands of soldiers, possibly hundreds of thousands, from its nations.  Many of which are trained in rudimentary martial arts and can shoot fire or easily throw ice spikes or boulders.  As well as ridiculously uber people like, in this case, thousands of past avatars.  Avatar wins.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 5, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> No one, I repeat, _no one_, from Naruto is soloing the Avatarverse.



Anyone faster than Academy Sakura, basically.



> You, sir, need to watch a little more Avatar.



No thank you, I don't hate myself enough to do that. 



> The day C-rank techniques are the same as plugging volcanoes, cracking continents, and causing tsunamis is the day that the Narutoverse can beat the OPverse.





Fuuton: Reppushou is a C-Rank technique and travels faster than sound. Let's see an Avatar character stop that.

All those feats you mentioned are nice and all, but sadly they are manipulative feats not direct power feats. Any decently-strong, decently-fast Narutu: Sand Ninjaz character closes the gap and beats them fast.



> As for the argument pertaining to bloodbending:  Yes, the master waterbenders could probably learn bloodbending.  But OBD rules are OBD rules.  We can't discuss them doing it unless they've actually done it before.



They'd fail anyway due to speed differences.



> As for Koh:  Koh is certainly formidable, but we know little about him.  And what we do know isn't helpful:  He isn't particularly fast (Aang showed some emotion while Koh was turned away, and Koh couldn't turn around fast enough before Aang had a blank face again), his technique isn't actually deadly (a monkey was sitting outside Koh's lair when Aang came, and nothing was wrong about it, except that it was missing a face.)  Losing your face is certainly a very bad thing, but just how, we don't exactly know.  Koh would be a problem to the Narutoverse, but he can't solo or anything.



Stealing faces doesn't win a fight. Kisame destroys with a phallic slash. 



> As for dragons:  Keep in mind, there is a grand total of 2 dragons alive right now.  They can't take out all the summons, much less the whole Narutoverse, by themselves.





Boss summons rape.


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 5, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> What's impressive is that no one in Naruto has ever done anything close to it.



They've done other things. Like Yamato making a waterfall out of thin air.



> And yes, she did it with raw power.  How else do you think she moved the island?



If she smashed it in two with her bare hands, I'd say it was raw power. This was just Earth Bending, they move rocks all the time. And she seemed to be struggling with it too. Anyway, reason I'm not especially impressed by this feat, is because it doesn't tell us anything about what she's capable of in battle.




> Can I get some proof on that "Hundred thousand" number?  Thousands is believable, but a hundred thousand?



Asking for someone to prove lies, how evil.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 5, 2009)

Not to mention the comet is on. Dragons get all juiced up.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 5, 2009)

Not to mention, a huge power boost for every Avatar from the comet.  And flight, which alone give one a huge advantage over the Narutoverse.


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 6, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> It's fire. Unlike in the Narutoverse, fire is _actually_ a threat. You can't go around ignoring fire from high level benders like you can ignore high level fire jutsus.



Then give us a best feat, so we can argue. Because I don't remember them doing anything that makes them as strong as you claim.



> Free Bijuus are weaker than ones with hosts. Hosts(One, two, four, eight and nine) are too busy fighting, and getting killed by, someone their own size.



People always say that, but where's the logic in that?
How exactly is a sealed and limited Bijuu, weaker than when it's at free at full power? It doesn't make much sense to me. Also, if that was true, then I doubt Gaara would've given Shukaku full control.


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 6, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> Anyone faster than Academy Sakura, basically.





I'm wondering right now if you're joking or just plain stupid.



> No thank you, I don't hate myself enough to do that.



Heh, you should.  It's a very good show; it rivals serious animes in scope and epicness.



> Fuuton: Reppushou is a C-Rank technique and travels faster than sound. Let's see an Avatar character stop that.



Scan for proof, please?  And I'd give Toph a good chance of stopping it.  She once reacted to an attack before it was even launched.  The guy who threw it was slightly airborne when he did it, standing around 50 meters away.  Toph then threw an attack at him that hit him before he touched the ground.



> All those feats you mentioned are nice and all, but sadly they are manipulative feats not direct power feats. Any decently-strong, decently-fast Narutu: Sand Ninjaz character closes the gap and beats them fast.



Well, it doesn't take a lot of imagination for Kyoshi to lift a mountain and drop it on Naruto characters.  Or Kuruk to make Kisame wet himself with a huge tidal wave.



> They'd fail anyway due to speed differences.



Can you prove those speed differences?



			
				Onomatopeia said:
			
		

> It's fire. Unlike in the Narutoverse, fire is actually a threat. You can't go around ignoring fire from high level benders like you can ignore high level fire jutsus.



And how does this prove anything about the dragons?



> Free Bijuus are weaker than ones with hosts. Hosts(One, two, four, eight and nine) are too busy fighting, and getting killed by, someone their own size



I agree with Nihonjin- where's the logic in this?



> You disagree that they won't win easily or you disagree that they won't get "horribly stomped"? If the latter, you're an idiot. If the former, I accept your praises of my genius.
> 
> In fact, I'll do that anyway. Along with this.*blocks*
> 
> ...



I disagree that the dragons and Koh won't get horribly stomped by the summons and bijuus.  I'm sorry, but they're just outnumbered and overpowered.

And, why are you doing this?  I'm pro-Avatar.  I'm with you, aside from a few points.  You're the one acting like an idiot by blocking those who slightly disagree with you, without proving your position.


----------



## Stan Lee (Jan 6, 2009)

The Avatar universe should win but only because all of the Avatars are involved.


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 6, 2009)

Agreed, I actually think they would lose otherwise.


----------



## Ax_ (Jan 6, 2009)

Why not just wait roughly 3 avatar cycles before starting the war?
Avatarverse is fucked now, since there are no more airbenders, so it's just a matter of time until they get fucked when it's time for an airbender to be the avatar.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 6, 2009)

Aang does the wild thing with Katara and BAM! Instant Airbender. Well, not instant. Nine months I suppose.


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 6, 2009)

You know, it's possible Aang's energybending ability works in reverse, so he could go around turning people into airbenders.


----------



## juju100000 (Jan 6, 2009)

Is this a joke??Naruto characters moves and techniqes are way more powerful.The only person who might have a chance against them is katara because of her blood bending, but has soon has she looks at someone like sasuke she dead.


----------



## juju100000 (Jan 6, 2009)

Kal-El said:


> The Avatar universe should win but only because all of the Avatars are involved.



hmm all the hokages are involve.There is no way Avatar could beat Naruto.Itachi alone would kill them all.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 6, 2009)

Are you a dupe or just stupid?


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 6, 2009)

So, Juju, what from Naruto is more powerful than moving an island, plugging a volcano, and causing tidal waves?  Hmm?  Also, there are hundreds of past Avatars, compared to only a few hokages.


----------



## juju100000 (Jan 6, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> So, Juju, what from Naruto is more powerful than moving an island, plugging a volcano, and causing tidal waves?  Hmm?  Also, there are hundreds of past Avatars, compared to only a few hokages.



U guys are only taking into account the elements.Who in the avatar world could beat itachi???If they look at him they are finished.Kisame could make a tidal wave easily actually, has chakra has no limits.Naruto characters are way faster too.Madara and the 4th can can dodge any attack with there teleportation justu.Who will stop naruto when he goes 4 tails anyways??


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 6, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Are you a dupe or just stupid?



Don't ask, just neg.


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 6, 2009)

juju100000 said:


> U guys are only taking into account the elements.



Well, that's what Avatar characters are good at.  Way better than Naruto characters.



> Who in the avatar world could beat itachi???If they look at him they are finished



A dozen Avatars could drop mountains on him.  Also, Toph is blind.  Sharingan would have no effect on her.



> Kisame could make a tidal wave easily actually, has chakra has no limits.



Not as big as a wave from a bunch of Avatars.  And the moon and ocean spirits.  Also, that is a blatant no limits fallacy.



> Naruto characters are way faster too. Madara and the 4th can can dodge any attack with there teleportation justu.



They're not fast enough to avoid mountains and tidal waves.  Also, Madara and the 4th are just two people.



> Who will stop naruto when he goes 4 tails anyways??



Avatar State Aang.


----------



## Zoidberg (Jan 6, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Avatar State Aang.



You forgot the dragon turtle


----------



## juju100000 (Jan 6, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Well, that's what Avatar characters are good at.  Way better than Naruto characters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Naruto characters are pretty good at elements too.Kisame could match any Avatars in terms of waterbending.Also Naruto characters have advantage because they can get water out of no where while avatar characters need a certain places.LOL Even if Toph is blind she can't beat Itachi.Itachi is wayyy faster and would destroy her.Itachi doesn't need to look into ur eyes to put u in a genjutsu.Madara and the 4th use a jutsu that makes them teleport, they don't need to be fast.I also doubt The 4th couldn't dodge those attacks because he is the fastest.Avatar aang would get destroyed.He could die while 4 tail Naruto is constantly healing it's self.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 6, 2009)

I can't decide if he's a troll or if he really believe these things.


----------



## juju100000 (Jan 6, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Well, that's what Avatar characters are good at.  Way better than Naruto characters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Onomatopoeia said:


> I can't decide if he's a troll or if he really believe these things.



I can't decide if ur joking.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2009)

All avatars can fight with their eyes closed and use EarthSight, and sharingan only works on one person.

Wich won't be neither toph nor an avatar, and a friend can just knock them out of it.
How is it relevant then?


----------



## juju100000 (Jan 6, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> All avatars can fight with their eyes closed and use EarthSight, and sharingan only works on one person.
> 
> Wich won't be neither toph nor an avatar, and a friend can just knock them out of it.
> How is it relevant then?



How do u know all avatars can do wat toph does???Ur just making things up.Itachi only needs like a few seconds to torture them for like 10 years.


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## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2009)

juju100000 said:


> How do u know all avatars can do wat toph does???Ur just making things up.Itachi only needs like a few seconds to torture them for like 10 years.



Because Aang knows how to do it, so the Avatar State knows how to do it.

they can also all redirect lightning.


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## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2009)

Itachi only needs a few seconds to incapacitate both himself and one of the thousands of characters before he's shortly killed, none of wich will be Toph or an Avatar.


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## juju100000 (Jan 6, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Because Aang knows how to do it, so the Avatar State knows how to do it.
> 
> they can also all redirect lightning.


When does aang perform this feat.Wat episode?



Banhammer said:


> Itachi only needs a few seconds to incapacitate both himself and one of the thousands of characters before he's shortly killed, none of wich will be Toph or an Avatar.



LOL u act like Itachi is fighting by himself??Itachi has the whole Narutoverse with him.Itachi will probably fight someone one on one and destroy them.Naruto Characters can use bunshins and trick Avatarverse easily.They have no training at all on how to sense bunshins.Itachi would use Amaterasu and the fight would be over.


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## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2009)

> When does aang perform this feat.Wat episode?


The finale for once


> LOL u act like Itachi is fighting by himself??Itachi has the whole Narutoverse with him.Itachi will probably fight someone one on one and destroy them.Naruto Characters can use bunshins and trick Avatarverse easily.They have no training at all on how to sense bunshins.Itachi would use Amaterasu and the fight would be over.


There are more Avatars than named characters, and like it's been argued before, they can just begin by ripping off their powers, turning them into normal humans and then rapestomp them rigth off the bat.
So.... Fuck Itachi.


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## juju100000 (Jan 6, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> The finale for once
> 
> There are more Avatars than named characters, and like it's been argued before, they can just begin by ripping off their powers, turning them into normal humans and then rapestomp them rigth off the bat.
> So.... Fuck Itachi.



He did it in the final episode??(when?) The characters would hav the same amount of people.ripping them of there powers????Amaterasu is unstoppable.


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## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2009)

juju100000;21066127[B said:
			
		

> ]He did it in the final episode??(when?) The characters would hav the same amount of people.ripping them of there powers???[/B]?Amaterasu is unstoppable.


Unless it is stoped by say, clothes, or fire.

Also, bolded=go back to school


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## juju100000 (Jan 6, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> The finale for once
> 
> There are more Avatars than named characters, and like it's been argued before, they can just begin by ripping off their powers, turning them into normal humans and then rapestomp them rigth off the bat.
> So.... Fuck Itachi.





Banhammer said:


> Unless it is stoped by say, clothes, or fire.
> 
> Also, bolded=go back to school



LOL It can't be stopped by fire.They clearly stated it burns through fire and u act like this is not a cartoon.In reality in any show OP,Bleach,avatar etc.... The way they hit each other there clothes would be ripped off after every fight.Stop making BS excuses The fire burns for a week and is unstoppable.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 6, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> All avatars can fight with their eyes closed and use EarthSight, and sharingan only works on one person.



How exactly would the Avatars know not to look into Itachi's eyes?



> And a friend can just knock them out of it.
> How is it relevant then?



1) They won't know they have to touch their friends to knock em out of a genjutsu.

2) Tsukiyomi happens too fast for people to break out of it.

2) It's not just touching if I remember correctly, it's inserting chakra to disrupt theirs, so even if they do touch, they probably can't do it.

And no, I'm by no means suggesting Itachi can solo.



> Because Aang knows how to do it, so the Avatar State knows how to do it.
> 
> they can also all redirect lightning.



How exactly does that work anyway? Would all of them learn what ever the others knows instantly (And basically share vision & thoughts like Pain) or would they gain the knowledge of the Avatars killed KIA (like a clone) or would they not gain anything?



Onomatopoeia said:


> I can't decide if he's a troll or if he really believe these things.



Most people probably think the same about you.



Banhammer said:


> Unless it is stoped by say, clothes, or fire.



That same fire burned_ clean_ through the stomach of a fire breathing frog and the layers of wall behind it.

As much as I hate to say it, the troll-ish newbie's somewhat right.

You're giving it too little credit just because of bad writing. (And he's obviously giving it way too much)


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## Banhammer (Jan 6, 2009)

> How exactly does that work anyway? Would all of them learn what ever the others knows instantly (And basically share vision & thoughts like Pain) or would they gain the knowledge of the Avatars killed KIA (like a clone) or would they not gain anything?



In Avatarverse, everything is a manifestation of our spirits. There's the moon spirit, the ocean spirit, and so on.
There is also, the spirit of the Earth, who has chosen to amass all the knowledge he can about the human expirience and therefore, chooses an Avatar who reincarnates in every nation so he can learn the most about Mankind. It's also why he's called the Bridge between spirit world and phisical world. For he is the spirit of the physical
So the Avatar is a manifestation of the earth's spirit, and when the avatar learns somethng, such as say, a new bending technique, the spirit of the Earth(planet) has learned it through him because, he is him. Kinda like a magical kung fu action  Jesus.
So, when an Avatar taps onto the Avatar State, he is joining his powers to the Avatar Spirit, wich amasses the powers of the earth (hence why he uses all elements) and all the knowledge of all the avatars.
Including the unique Energybending, Earth Sight, Lightning Redirection, and Bloodbending (yes, Aang has prooven to master techniques even faster than katara, and she learned out of just having information about it, wich aang and the rest of the avatars also do, but we don't have to argue about this.)


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## silenteye (Jan 6, 2009)

ummmm aang is too pussy to kill anyone in the naruto verse he couldn't kill the firelord and all he did was take away the bending i know both verses have chakra but could aang take away naruto's jutsu i'm mean he has unlimited chakra


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 6, 2009)

Naruto doesn't have unlimited chakra, just a whole lot of it.

And Aang's unwillingness to kill is trivial at best, considering the thousands of other Avatars there are who are perfectly willing to kill.


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## Amatsu (Jan 6, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Because Aang knows how to do it, so the Avatar State knows how to do it.
> 
> they can also all redirect lightning.



Just because Aang knows how to do it doesn't mean the other avatars do, and Aang learned how to do it because Toph taught him how too in the first place. Other avatars may not have had earthbending masters like Toph teaching them.

Logical fallacy. Burden of proof is on you.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 6, 2009)

The Avatar State allows the Avatar to access the knowledge and skills of every other Avatar. 

That's the entire point of the Avatar State.


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## Amatsu (Jan 6, 2009)

Ah I quoted the wrong thing my bad.



> All avatars can fight with their eyes closed and use EarthSight, and sharingan only works on one person.
> 
> Wich won't be neither toph nor an avatar, and a friend can just knock them out of it.
> How is it relevant then?



That's what I meant to quote.

Anyways the Avatar state doesn't matter in this case. As there's no evidence that any of the other avatars had an earthbending master like Toph to teach them how to use earthsight. So it's a logical fallacy to say they can all fight with their eyes close just cause Aang can.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 6, 2009)

Yes, if only there were some sort of trance-like state the Avatars could enter, an "Avatar State" if you will, that allowed them to access the knowledge that all the other Avatars possessed.

Too bad nothing like that exists in Avatar.


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## Amatsu (Jan 6, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Yes, if only there were some sort of trance-like state the Avatars could enter, an "Avatar State" if you will, that allowed them to access the knowledge that all the other Avatars possessed.
> 
> Too bad nothing like that exists in Avatar.



And how does the avatar state work when the fight is set up so all the fucking avatars are alive? That kind of destroys the point that the only reason the current avatar gains all the knowledge and memories of the past avatars is because the past ones are dead.

Going by that how will ANY of the avatars be able to use the avatar state? They'll have to use their own skills.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't make the rules, if I did this fight would have ended on page one with everyone accepting Avatarverse's superiority.

I just follow 'em and as the Avatar State is a default ability for the Avatar, that means he or she can access it.

Kinda like how you can put Madara and Madara's brother on the same team with Mangekyo despite Madara having his eyes.


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## Amatsu (Jan 6, 2009)

Meh and yet I've seen anyone actually try to argue that, but even so there's no proof that the avatar state will grant Roku and the other avatars Aangs memories and knowledge. I don't think it works the reverse way.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 6, 2009)

*shrug* Unless the AS lets them use knowledge any bender and not just any Avatar in which case badgermoles FTW! 

Or maybe there were Avatars before Humans and there was a Badgermole Avatar. Man that would be so awesome. He'd be all PEW! PEW! PEW!(those are laser sound effects mind you). 

No, I don't know where he got lasers either. Maybe he's a light bender. Now _that_ would be awesome.


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## Amatsu (Jan 6, 2009)

Well I would think the only avatars that would know how to use earthsight are the ones that either learned from the badger moles or were taught by masters who learned from the badger moles. In either case the avatars will probably have to rely more on their individual skills rather than the avatar state.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 7, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> -snip-



Still didn't answer my question.
How would the Avatar state work?

1) Access to all Avatar memories with real-time updating (Kinda like Pain's shared vision) <-- this would probably work to their disadvantage lol

2) Like clones in Naruto gaining memories of the ones that died (making the ones alive stronger as they decrease in numbers, kinda jet-li the one style))

3) Nothing at all, they have their normal abilities, and don't gain shit, because if they're all there at the same time there are no past Avatars to tap into.



Onomatopoeia said:


> I just follow 'em and as the Avatar State is a default ability for the Avatar, that means he or she can access it.
> 
> Kinda like how you can put Madara and Madara's brother on the same team with Mangekyo despite Madara having his eyes.



First time I've seen you make a logical argument. Do this more often and we might actually get along.

Now, if you'd answer my question as well and properly support your argument you gain +reps!

Gogo.


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 7, 2009)

juju100000 said:


> The Naruto characters are pretty good at elements too.Kisame could match any Avatars in terms of waterbending.



Perhaps.  Except, you know, when Aang flooded an large forest.  Also, Kisame is outnumbered- hundreds of Avatars, and the ocean and moon spirits are all more powerful than him.



> Also Naruto characters have advantage because they can get water out of no where while avatar characters need a certain places.



True.  Good thing they have Kisame on hand to give them water.



> Even if Toph is blind she can't beat Itachi.Itachi is wayyy faster and would destroy her.



He's not speedblitzing Toph.  She has probably the fastest reaction and attack times of any Avatar character, thanks to her sense. She once reacted to an airborne opponent’s attack before he launched it, and launched an attack at 50+ meters away that hit him before he hit the ground again.



> Itachi doesn't need to look into ur eyes to put u in a genjutsu.



Proof, please.



> Madara and the 4th use a jutsu that makes them teleport, they don't need to be fast.I also doubt The 4th couldn't dodge those attacks because he is the fastest.



The Fourth is dead.  Madara is one person.  He would get worn out against hundreds of Avatars.



> Avatar aang would get destroyed.He could die while 4 tail Naruto is constantly healing it's self.



Could, yes.  Would? No.

First of all, no attack by Naruto would land effectively on Aang.  Aang would fly around shrugging everything off with his air shield, and easily dodge the only thing Naruto has that can seriously hurt Aang (chakra ball)

And, if Naruto tried to charge the chakra ball, Aang would grind Naruto into a pulp.

Naruto can heal, yes, but it's not unlimited healing.  Naruto wouldn't heal if he got his head, arms or limbs cut off.  Also, the healing is already taxed by the fact that the fox's power simultaneously tears apart and heals Naruto's body.  And Naruto can't heal at all if Aang cuts off the fox from him.

As for the whole Avatar State issue:  The Avatar State gives you the skills and knowledge of all the _past_ Avatars.  Not all Avatars.  Thus, Roku's Avatar State would lack things Aang specifically knows; Kyoshi's Avatar State would lack things that Roku and Aang knew.  Thus, as you go back, the Avatar State gets a bit weaker and less flexible.  However, being that there are hundreds of Avatars, a lot are still going to have a formidable AS. 

(Also, just to note, a canonical source (the official website, I think, which is flash so I can't link it) said that when Aang learned energybending he learned a skill _few_ Avatars had learned before.  Meaning some had.  So, while it apparently isn't used by the Avatar State, there will be a few more Avatars than Aang going around with energybending)


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## Grrblt (Jan 7, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Proof, please.



you don't need to mold your chakra for taijutsu.


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 7, 2009)

Still, it's not as dangerous as Tsukuyomi.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 7, 2009)

^Not to Naruto characters, but to people who've no idea what Genjutsu is, that's pretty much inescapable.


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## Banhammer (Jan 7, 2009)

Grrblt said:


> you don't need to mold your chakra for taijutsu.



that just dosen't even begin to make any forking sense.
His finger can mindrape now. His nail is so ugly and uncllean that anyone that gazes upon it has a genjutsu seizure.

he probably used something else concealed.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 7, 2009)

He's got eyes on his fingers which is how he can use this technique which is specifically stated to be an eye jutsu using only a finger.


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## Grrblt (Jan 7, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> He's got eyes on his fingers which is how he can use this technique which is specifically stated to be an eye jutsu using only a finger.



Genjutsu has not been specifically stated to be an eye jutsu.


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## Banhammer (Jan 7, 2009)

Aethos said:


> Ah I quoted the wrong thing my bad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, I'm still right. See Aang was vaporizing steel and lava bending in the avatar state long before he had learn to firebend at all. Same with waterbending
The Avatar Spirit learns these things through the living avatar, and both the avatar and the Spirit will know them (that's the whole purpose of the avatar, to learn things for the Spirit) and when sharing a mind with the Spirit, the avatar gets all the things the Spirit knows.
So yeah, all of Aang's custom techniques are passed onto all the other avatars aswell.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 7, 2009)

> Genjutsu has not been specifically stated to be an eye jutsu.



Tsukuyomi is a technique that requires the possession of a special kind of eye to use. Eye contact is the given medium for using this technique.

Given this, why should it not be considered an eye jutsu?


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## juju100000 (Jan 7, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Perhaps.  Except, you know, when Aang flooded an large forest.  Also, Kisame is outnumbered- hundreds of Avatars, and the ocean and moon spirits are all more powerful than him.



hmm A 30% Kisame flooded a large terrain too.He wasn't even half of him
True.  Good thing they have Kisame on hand to give them water. [/QUOTE]

yep


He's not speedblitzing Toph.  She has probably the fastest reaction and attack times of any Avatar character, thanks to her sense. She once reacted to an airborne opponent’s attack before he launched it, and launched an attack at 50+ meters away that hit him before he hit the ground again.[/QUOTE] I find it funny ur trying to compare toph to Itachi.Do u read naruto?


Proof, please.[/QUOTE] A 30% Itachi only needed to point his finger at people.LOL read the mange here it is ( you don't need to mold your chakra for taijutsu.  and go to the next page) Fact Toph is done)


The Fourth is dead.  Madara is one person.  He would get worn out against hundreds of Avatars. [/QUOTE] yea right the avatars would get worn out by the hundreds of Uchias and senju clan.Who cares if they are dead?All the avatars are dead too.

Could, yes.  Would? No.

First of all, no attack by Naruto would land effectively on Aang.  Aang would fly around shrugging everything off with his air shield, and easily dodge the only thing Naruto has that can seriously hurt Aang (chakra ball)

And, if Naruto tried to charge the chakra ball, Aang would grind Naruto into a pulp.

Naruto can heal, yes, but it's not unlimited healing.  Naruto wouldn't heal if he got his head, arms or limbs cut off.  Also, the healing is already taxed by the fact that the fox's power simultaneously tears apart and heals Naruto's body.  And Naruto can't heal at all if Aang cuts off the fox from him.

As for the whole Avatar State issue:  The Avatar State gives you the skills and knowledge of all the _past_ Avatars.  Not all Avatars.  Thus, Roku's Avatar State would lack things Aang specifically knows; Kyoshi's Avatar State would lack things that Roku and Aang knew.  Thus, as you go back, the Avatar State gets a bit weaker and less flexible.  However, being that there are hundreds of Avatars, a lot are still going to have a formidable AS. 

(Also, just to note, a canonical source (the official website, I think, which is flash so I can't link it) said that when Aang learned energybending he learned a skill _few_ Avatars had learned before.  Meaning some had.  So, while it apparently isn't used by the Avatar State, there will be a few more Avatars than Aang going around with energybending) [/QUOTE]

4 tail Naruto constantly heals and is has strong is avatar aang.The thing is AAng could get hurt while Naruto just keep comin at him.He would get worn out and die.LMAO His air shield can't stop 4 tail naruto.LOL It hurts his body when he goes in and out of 4 tails.The whole battle he would be in 4 tails.How the hack can he cut off the fox from naruto???


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 7, 2009)

Nihonjin said:


> They've done other things. Like Yamato making a waterfall out of thin air.



Does said waterfall rival the size of the island Kyoshi moved?



> If she smashed it in two with her bare hands, I'd say it was raw power. This was just Earth Bending, they move rocks all the time. And she seemed to be struggling with it too. Anyway, reason I'm not especially impressed by this feat, is because it doesn't tell us anything about what she's capable of in battle.



It's raw earthbending power.  A feat that can easily be translated into moving a mountain and dropping it on your opponent.  And I disagree that she was struggling.

Also, Ono, we all know tsukuyomi is an eye genjutsu.  We're talking about genjutsu other than tsukuyomi.


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 7, 2009)

juju100000 said:


> hmm A 30% Kisame flooded a large terrain too.He wasn't even half of him



And there are hundreds of more Avatars than Aang.



> I find it funny ur trying to compare toph to Itachi.Do u read naruto
> 
> A 30% Itachi only needed to point his finger at people.LOL read the mange here it is ( you don't need to mold your chakra for taijutsu.  and go to the next page) Fact Toph is done)



I don't really read; I watch some of the anime, and look at scans. BTW, nice ad hominem fallacy.  What I know about Naruto does not affect the truth of my arguments once I make them.  It may affect what arguments I make, but can't be used to argue against them. BTW, you obviously haven't watched much Avatar, so don't go accusing me of not knowing about Naruto.

 And sure, he can stun someone with genjutsu.  While he's standing still an Avatar swoops in and kills him.



> yea right the avatars would get worn out by the hundreds of Uchias and senju clan.Who cares if they are dead?All the avatars are dead too.



Except that the OP specifically said all Avatars are in this fight, but said nothing about Naruto characters.



> 4 tail Naruto constantly heals and is has strong is avatar aang.The thing is AAng could get hurt while Naruto just keep comin at him.He would get worn out and die.LMAO His air shield can't stop 4 tail naruto.LOL It hurts his body when he goes in and out of 4 tails.The whole battle he would be in 4 tails.How the hack can he cut off the fox from naruto???



Aang's air shield has tanked a point-blank blast from comet-powered Ozai and smashed through large rock pillars.  I know Naruto's chakra ball would overpower Aang's air shield, but before Naruto has it charged Aang would fill Naruto with rock bullets.

Aang would cut off Naruto from the fox with energybending, just like how he took away Fire Lord Ozai's firebending.



> The naruto characters would just jump to the other side.She didn't even move it fast.LOL She was using all her power moving that thing.



Avoid a mountain?  Even if it's slow, Narutocharacters aren't that fast.  It's too wide an area to escape.


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## juju100000 (Jan 7, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> He's got eyes on his fingers which is how he can use this technique which is specifically stated to be an eye jutsu using only a finger.


Read sasuke vs Itachi.Itachi is one of the most powerful person in the manga.


Banhammer said:


> No, I'm still right. See Aang was vaporizing steel and lava bending in the avatar state long before he had learn to firebend at all. Same with waterbending
> The Avatar Spirit learns these things through the living avatar, and both the avatar and the Spirit will know them (that's the whole purpose of the avatar, to learn things for the Spirit) and when sharing a mind with the Spirit, the avatar gets all the things the Spirit knows.
> So yeah, all of Aang's custom techniques are passed onto all the other avatars aswell.


I agree


Bender Alchemist said:


> Does said waterfall rival the size of the island Kyoshi moved?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The naruto characters would just jump to the other side.She didn't even move it fast.LOL She was using all her power moving that thing.


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## juju100000 (Jan 7, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> And there are hundreds of more Avatars than Aang.


ur point?


I don't really read; I watch some of the anime, and look at scans. BTW, nice ad hominem fallacy.  What I know about Naruto does not affect the truth of my arguments once I make them.  It may affect what arguments I make, but can't be used to argue against them. BTW, you obviously haven't watched much Avatar, so don't go accusing me of not knowing about Naruto.[/QUOTE]
I watched all of avatar episodes.It's actually my third favorite under naruto and OP. And sure, he can stun someone with genjutsu.  While he's standing still an Avatar swoops in and kills him..[/QUOTE]
How did another avatar get into this fight.Also The Narutoverse has unlimited preparation so he would be hitting a clone or in a genjutsu.



Except that the OP specifically said all Avatars are in this fight, but said nothing about Naruto characters.[/QUOTE]
He wasn't specific enough, so i  can use anyone from the narutoverse


Aang's air shield has tanked a point-blank blast from comet-powered Ozai and smashed through large rock pillars.  I know Naruto's chakra ball would overpower Aang's air shield, but before Naruto has it charged Aang would fill Naruto with rock bullets..[/QUOTE]
Rock bullets don't hurt him
Aang would cut off Naruto from the fox with energybending, just like how he took away Fire Lord Ozai's firebending..[/QUOTE]
I sorry Naruto uses jutsu not bending.LOL he doesn't even now there is a fox in Naruto.He just fighting him.The only way the fox can be released is removing the seal.


Avoid a mountain?  Even if it's slow, Narutocharacters aren't that fast.  It's too wide an area to escape.[/QUOTE]

U act like they are fighting miles apart.


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## Grrblt (Jan 7, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Tsukuyomi is a technique that requires the possession of a special kind of eye to use. Eye contact is the given medium for using this technique.
> 
> Given this, why should it not be considered an eye jutsu?



Tsukuyomi is just one of many genjutsu.


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 7, 2009)

juju100000 said:


> ur point?



Together they have way more power than Kisame.



> How did another avatar get into this fight.Also The Narutoverse has unlimited preparation so he would be hitting a clone or in a genjutsu.



It's the whole verse vs. verse, not Toph vs. Itachi.  Clones would not work well, either- Toph would sense ones in hiding.  Also, since she can sense one's insides, she would know which is real.



> He wasn't specific enough, so i  can use anyone from the narutoverse



Uh, no.  OBD rules state you use the current version of the verse, unless the OP states otherwise.  He did for Avatar, not for Naruto.



> Rock bullets don't hurt him



Prove he has tanked something like them, then.



> I sorry Naruto uses jutsu not bending.LOL he doesn't even now there is a fox in Naruto.He just fighting him.The only way the fox can be released is removing the seal.



OBD equivalence rule states Aang's ability will work on all magical abilities.  Besides, Aang's ability wasn't specifically stated to be bending-only- it just removed bending.



> U act like they are fighting miles apart.



The avatars could.


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## juju100000 (Jan 7, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> And there are hundreds of more Avatars than Aang.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Bender Alchemist said:


> Together they have way more power than Kisame.
> 
> Kisame will not be fighting alone either and they can't tell the difference between clones.
> 
> ...


They have unlimited prepartion so they would of found away to trick them.Especially shikamaru


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 7, 2009)

They have no way of knowing what the Avatarverse is capable of, so have no way of knowing how to prepare to trick them in the first place.


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## juju100000 (Jan 7, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> They have no way of knowing what the Avatarverse is capable of, so have no way of knowing how to prepare to trick them in the first place.



They will still set traps every because they no about the invaders.Also If Naruto summons his frog they can take out half of avatarverse.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 7, 2009)

> They will still set traps every because they no about the invaders



What traps? Tripwires? Exploding tags? The Avatars lavabend the entire forest into oblivion, eliminating the traps as well as any other obstacles. 



> Also If Naruto summons his frog they can take out half of avatarverse.


*again wonders if juju is actually stupid enough to believe that or if he's just trolling*


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 7, 2009)

Before I get started, This isn't the current state of both verses is it? Meaning no dead characters?

EDIT

Well, for Narutoverse anyway.


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## Amatsu (Jan 7, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> No, I'm still right. See Aang was vaporizing steel and lava bending in the avatar state long before he had learn to firebend at all. Same with waterbending
> The Avatar Spirit learns these things through the living avatar, and both the avatar and the Spirit will know them (that's the whole purpose of the avatar, to learn things for the Spirit) and when sharing a mind with the Spirit, the avatar gets all the things the Spirit knows.
> So yeah, all of Aang's custom techniques are passed onto all the other avatars aswell.



The series never stated that the avatar state works in reverse. There is no proof saying that just because Aang knows earthsight that automatically means the spirits of past avatars do. The avatar state was said only to give the current avatar all the knowledge and power of the past avatars nothing more. You're completely making it up.

There's not even an instance in the series that could even help you prove this.


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## Stan Lee (Jan 7, 2009)

This topic is long.


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## BAD BD (Jan 7, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> What traps? Tripwires? Exploding tags? The Avatars lavabend the entire forest into oblivion, eliminating the traps as well as any other obstacles.
> 
> 
> *again wonders if juju is actually stupid enough to believe that or if he's just trolling*



Lava < Kisame


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 7, 2009)

juju100000 said:


> Kisame will not be fighting alone either and they can't tell the difference between clones.



No, he won't be fighting alone.  But he and other ninja will be outnumbered.



> ok i give u that, but toph can't sense clones WTH are u talking about?She can only sense the vibrations when people walk.



Toph senses people's insides, she can sense the physical reaction when people lie.  Also, uh, no she senses people as long as they are standing on earth.  They don't have to be moving..



> When i say it can't hurt him, i mean he will just heal after it.He took a direct hit from Oro super sword.He also took many hits.He also took a chidori through his belly and healed.



Both true, but neither match rock bullets in destructive power.



> Even if it does take away elements.It doesn't take off the seal inside naruto.He doesn't even now Naruto has a seal inside him.



But he knows Naruto uses magical power.  So Aang could take away Naruto's ability to use jutsu.



> They have unlimited prepartion so they would of found away to trick them.Especially shikamaru



Unless you can name a trick that would work and prove that the ninjas have used it before, your statement is worthless.



> They will still set traps every because they no about the invaders.Also If Naruto summons his frog they can take out half of avatarverse.





What traps?  And no, Gamabunta would not take out half the verse.  No way.   Bolt of lightning to head=dead frog.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 7, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> that just dosen't even begin to make any forking sense.
> His finger can mindrape now. His nail is so ugly and uncllean that anyone that gazes upon it has a genjutsu seizure.
> 
> he probably used something else concealed.



Point is that he didn't use his eyes.



Bender Alchemist said:


> Does said waterfall rival the size of the island Kyoshi moved?



It's not about the size, more about that he made it out of thin air.



> It's raw earthbending power.



My point was that it's not raw strength, just bending on a massive scale.



> A feat that can easily be translated into moving a mountain and dropping it on your opponent.  And I disagree that she was struggling.



If you look at how easily Earth benders throw rocks around, and then look at how slowly the Island was moving, I'd say she was struggling. So no, she won't be mountain crushing people anytime soon.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 7, 2009)

> Lava < Kisame



Waterbenders > Kisame.


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## BAD BD (Jan 7, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Waterbenders > Kisame.



we already went over this


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## Nikushimi (Jan 7, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Waterbenders > Kisame.





Let's see them bend this shit:

[YOUTUBE]5VXa82AuwHU[/YOUTUBE]

Kisame is overkill. Gai is overkill. Lee removes his weights and he solos, they can't keep up. Speed feats or GTFO.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 7, 2009)

> we already went over this



Was the conclusion "Waterbenders cockstomp Kisame from here to Acapulco?" Because if it wasn't we need to go over it again until people stop being morons inbred degenerates with hardly a brain cell to their name.

Nikushimi, I'm quite confident that, if not an Avatar then the Ocean Spirit could indeed "bend that shit", but regardless, Kisame is incapable of generating that much water.

I take it from your claim that Kisame is overkill that you believe he could solo the Avatarverse.

Be that the case, you're wrong and stupid and ugly and you should kill yourself. Same with Gai. And Lee.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Jan 7, 2009)

Aren't water jutsus NOT normal water? No, they aren't. They are chakra based. I don't think waterbenders can bend Chakra water.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jan 7, 2009)

If it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, acts like a duck and walks like a duck it ain't a horse.

Water is water and waterbenders bend water.

Not like they need to use Kisame's jutsu water to kill him either way.

EDIT:I don't know how you people keep dragging me into this thread.

I've already decided the Avatarverse wins and that anyone who says otherwise is wrong and a Communist. And a Nazi sympathizer.

Hitler thinks the Narutoverse would win. Are you saying you agree with Hitler?

The end. I take my leave of this thread for the last time and shall not set foot in it if it be within my power to do so...or not do so...or whatever. You get the idea.


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## juju100000 (Jan 8, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> What traps? Tripwires? Exploding tags? The Avatars lavabend the entire forest into oblivion, eliminating the traps as well as any other obstacles.
> 
> 
> *again wonders if juju is actually stupid enough to believe that or if he's just trolling*


watever man.The summos are 10 times there size and powerful.Go look at the frog vs shakku Gaara.GTFO


Bender Alchemist said:


> No, he won't be fighting alone.  But he and other ninja will be outnumbered.
> 
> How will they be outnumbered??They have the sand village,wind etc....
> 
> ...


GTFO of here man.Gamabunta would not stand there and let them hit him.


Onomatopoeia said:


> Waterbenders > Kisame.


Kisame has unlimited chakra and would flood the world and fill it with sharks.


Onomatopoeia said:


> If it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, acts like a duck and walks like a duck it ain't a horse.
> 
> Water is water and waterbenders bend water.
> 
> ...



lol and also one other thing Narutverse is wayyy faster then avatar.


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## Amatsu (Jan 8, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Waterbenders > Kisame.



Aang sank a forest in water. Kisame created a freakin' giant lake. Plus there's also Yamato, and other mist country ninjas that might have the same feats.


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## Banhammer (Jan 8, 2009)

a single midly competente waterbender out of the several thousands causes the water beneath him (not neccessarily the entire lake) to trap him in an ice cube.


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 8, 2009)

Nihonjin said:


> If you look at how easily Earth benders throw rocks around, and then look at how slowly the Island was moving, I'd say she was struggling. So no, she won't be mountain crushing people anytime soon.



She could throw rock 1/2 the size of the island and it would still be mountain-size.  I don't think she would struggle with that.



			
				Nikushimi said:
			
		

> Let's see them bend this shit:



Wth?  That's not even Kisame.  And yes, they could.  See Ocean Spirit, Yue, and Aang at the end of Sozin's Comet.



> Kisame is overkill. Gai is overkill. Lee removes his weights and he solos, they can't keep up. Speed feats or GTFO.



Mind telling me how Lee (or Gai, or Kisame) is going to beat a giant Ocean Spirit, 1000+ Avatars flying around, bloodbenders, and Toph(who can sense his movement and react to it)?

Speed feats. Fine.  Here goes:

Iroh has reacted to real lightning.

Toph can launch herself at high speeds with earth. She also has probably the fastest reaction and attack times of any Avatar character, thanks to her sense. She once reacted to an airborne opponent’s attack before he launched it, and launched an attack at 50+ meters away that hit him before he hit the ground again.

Piandao, Sokka's sword master, was chasing Sokka, then suddenly appeared in front of him.  See episode 45.

Azula can use firebending behind her as jets.

Zuko ran along a long wall to get around an obstacle.

Aang can increase his speed with airbending to the point that he can run on water.  Also, he reacted to an attack from Combustion Man that had shockwaves in it.

Let's not forget that Avatars and some comet-powered firebenders can fly.


			
				juju100000 said:
			
		

> How will they be outnumbered??They have the sand village,wind etc....



First of all, there are hundreds of Avatars in this fight.  Second of all, they have the huge armies of the Fire Nation and Earth Kingdom in the fight.



> I already now toph can do all that and that doesn't prove she can sense clones.The clones stand on earth too..She can't tell the difference.She would get raped by a person doing arial attacks.



Clones aren't full copies of ninja, they are made of chakra, water, sand, etc.  Toph would be able to sense the insides, and tell which one's real and which one's not.

And yes, Toph would not expect aerial attacks.  But there aren't very many aerial opponents in the Avatarverse, barring Deidara.



> LOL ur out of ur mind.He ripped through his body with chidori and 4 tail took a legendary sword to the belly and wasn't affected.



And the rock bullets destroyed several large rock pillars.  Rock pillars>fleshy ninja body.



> Aang can't take away chakra.Thats BS GTFO



Yes he can.  The creators in the DVD commentary for "Sozin's Comet" said energybending was like "rewiring Ozai's chi".  Chi is basically the same thing as chakra.  Also, to quote the Lion Turtle, who taught Aang the technique:

"In the era before the Avatar, we bent not the elements but the energy within ourselves.

To bend another's energy, your own spirit must be unbendable, or you will be corrupted and destroyed."

Chakra is energy within the body.  Aang can bend it.

And even if you're not convinced of this, OBD equivalence rule says it would work.



> GTFO of here man.Gamabunta would not stand there and let them hit him



No, but Avatar characters aren't going to just stand still and let him dodge either.

Lightning bolt to head=twitchy frog.
Slice from Ocean Spirit=Frog in two pieces
Fire from avatars or comet-powered firebenders:  Fried frog
Mountain thrown by an avatar=Squished frog



> Kisame has unlimited chakra and would flood the world and fill it with sharks.



No-limits fallacy.  He has a lot of it, but it's not unlimited.  Unless you can provide a scan to back it up.


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## juju100000 (Jan 8, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> She could throw rock 1/2 the size of the island and it would still be mountain-size.  I don't think she would struggle with that.
> 
> She was struggling.
> 
> ...



Ok then he still has enough to pwn u guys.Also Pwn ad deidara would drop nukes and their heads.


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 8, 2009)

juju100000 said:


> LMAO Toph can't sense clones.She can't sense water in people or watever.She just sense the heartbeat of people to see if they are lying.She can't sense clones.



Sensing if someone is lying isn't just sensing their heartbeat, it's sensing their physical reaction.  Which means she senses their insides, which clones don't have.  Which means she can tell what's a clone and what's not.



> LMAO at u comparing Toph speed to Gai.Is this a joke?She can only react because suhe has time to react, go read Gaara vs Lee.She dead in one second.



As I said, she started reacting _before_ her opponent even threw the attack. I'm not specifcally saying she's faster than Gai, but she can compete.



> kakashi can stop Lightning with his bare hands.



So can Iroh.



> Naruto characters speed feat completely destroys avatar speed feat(This is not even debateable)



Then why are we debating it?




> They are hundreds of people from each village.



Villagers <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Avatars.



> Toph can't sense the freaking water etc... Show me a page where she sense someone has more water or something in their body.



The point is not that she'll sense it is water, but that she'll sense the body is way different than a normal body.



> True, but they would just jump.



And Toph would predict where they would land, unless they use some way to change their direction while in the air.



> hmmm wat are u talking about??He will just heal get through ur head.Aang has no answers for 4 tail naruto.



Naruto can heal a lot, but it isn't infinite regeneration.  He'll die, eventually, like if his head got cut off.



> It won't work because The seal is inside him.The chakra is not Naruto, but the 9 tails.He can't see the seal.



He can't "see" the seal, true.  But he can sense the energy, and make it so Naruto can't use the Fox's power.  OBD equivalence rule.



> The frog is 10 times bigger then any attacks they can try to hit him with which won't work anyways.



And Mr. Giant Lion Turtle is 10 times bigger than Gamabunta. 

The Ocean Spirit would slice Gamabunta's head off.  It sliced straight through the tower fo a fire nation battleship.  Also, comet-powered firebenders have more than enough fire to toast Bunta.  And a mountian is 10x bigger than Gamabunta also.



> Ok then he still has enough to pwn u guys.Also Pwn ad deidara would drop nukes and their heads



Uh, no.  Not before a lightning bolt hits him.  Deidara would drop one or two bombs, then an avatar would fly over and kill him.


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## Banhammer (Jan 8, 2009)

Deidara gets raped. He flies around on earth elements. A single flick that dosen't even need to be aimed at him specifically and all clay on him, and on everyone in a mile radius turns into dust and he falls to his death.


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## batman17 (Jan 8, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Sensing if someone is lying isn't just sensing their heartbeat, it's sensing their physical reaction.  Which means she senses their insides, which clones don't have.  Which means she can tell what's a clone and what's not.
> 
> How does she sense their insides?Even if she could they would waste thier energy fighting them
> 
> ...



That won't happen.Also u don't know pains secret at all so if u somehow kill him.He will just send more bodies.Itachi and sasuke fuse amaratsu which can't be dodged or stop by water or fire.The avatars are done.


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## Banhammer (Jan 8, 2009)

We allready argued wh all avatars can energybend (lol, narutoverse turns beneath peak human) earth sight, lightning redirect and heal.
Also, lol @ocean spirit's speed. Sure, only totally katan'd a steel batleship from half a click away, he also tsunamie the entire armada with one blow.
There aint gonna be much dodging.


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 8, 2009)

batman17 said:


> Bender Alchemist said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



See above.



> Make a thread comparing Toph and gai and u will get laugh at.She can't compete with someone wayyy faster then her.She has no time to react.



Mind proving Gai's speed when making statments like this?  And whatever.  Gai would get beaten by other things.



> We were debating who wins not speed feats.Do u want to debate speed feat with the narutoverse??



I agree that on whole, Naruto characters are faster.  However, that doesn't win the debate, and that doesn't prove that every single Naruto character is faster than every single Avatar character.



> I am srry jonins will give them problems.



Problems?  A bit.  Win?  No way.



> She will still have to fight them.She can't fight them while fightintg the real one.She also the only one in avatar who can do this.



Yes, but clones disappear with light hits.  She can focus on the real people.  And Aang has earth sense also.



> She is not fast enough to predict narutverse movements.



Yes she is.  See her speed feat in "The Blind Bandit".



> LOL, he will grow another one out of his side.Go read oro vs 4tail.U guys won't be able to Kill Gaara, or Oro with their defense.





Can you prove he's grown a new limb or head before?  Or is this just more BS?



> Ur right.GTFO He can't make so he can't use the fox.The only way he can do that is removing the seal or doing some jutsu that removes it.



He can't make what?  Aang's energybending ability would work on Naruto, OBD equivalence rule says so.



> I never fought and who says he has any fighting skillz?



Just joking. 



> The Ocean spirit won't slice off anyone head.Gamabunta is agile while The Spirt attacks are slow and predictable.



He could slice of Bunta's head.  He probably couldn't catch him, but Bunta can't fight by just avoiding the ocean spirit.



> That won't happen.



Proof?



> Also u don't know pains secret at all so if u somehow kill him.He will just send more bodies.



Eventually he'll run out of bodies.  Or all the bodies will be destroyed at the same time.



> Itachi and sasuke fuse amaratsu which can't be dodged or stop by water or fire.The avatars are done



Itachi's dead and Sasuke can't take down all the avatars.  He could kill a few, yes, but then a mountain gets dropped on him.


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## batman17 (Jan 8, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> See above.
> 
> k
> 
> ...



i don't see any of the avatars keeping up with Sasuke.LOL Killerbee who is also stronger and faster then sasuke would rape the avatars.KillerBee 8 tail would rape everyone too.8 tail>>4 tail naruto.


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## batman17 (Jan 8, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> We allready argued wh all avatars can energybend (lol, narutoverse turns beneath peak human) earth sight, lightning redirect and heal.
> Also, lol @ocean spirit's speed. Sure, only totally katan'd a steel batleship from half a click away, he also tsunamie the entire armada with one blow.
> There aint gonna be much dodging.



They will have to perform a ritual and noone will stand there while they do.LOL The Boats were not moving at all.LOl Kisame could do that too.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 9, 2009)

All Avatars? 1 Avatar would NUKE them...And whoever says Kisame solos go back to the god damned libary. Pain cant really die, Madara cant be hit and Hidan well cant die and the Bijuus are the only real problems I see. But Avatarverse owns Narutoverse...Sadly


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## Nihonjin (Jan 9, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> She could throw rock 1/2 the size of the island and it would still be mountain-size.  I don't think she would struggle with that.



No earth bender has ever thrown anything even close to that size. And seeing as she was struggling to move the island, suggesting she could lift & throw it is to say the least, ridiculous.



Bender Alchemist said:


> Sensing if someone is lying isn't just sensing their heartbeat, it's sensing their physical reaction.  *Which means she senses their insides, which clones don't have.*  Which means she can tell what's a clone and what's not.



Yeah, mind proving that? Why wouldn't the clones have insides?



> As I said, she started reacting _before_ her opponent even threw the attack. I'm not specifcally saying she's faster than Gai, but she can compete.



Toph's no precog, she reacts to the motion before the actual attack, in Gai's case, the premotion & the actual attack from Toph's perspective will be at the same time, she won't be reacting to anything. She'll get blitzed horribly.



> hen why are we debating it?



Because you're stubborn.



> And Toph would predict where they would land, unless they use some way to change their direction while in the air.



I remember some Anbu did exactly that.



> He can't "see" the seal, true.  But he can sense the energy, and make it so Naruto can't use the Fox's power.  OBD equivalence rule.



1) lol @ thinking Avatar's better at controlling energy than Naruto characters.
If Aang tried to bend anyones Chakra, they'd just consume him.

2) Neji completely shut down Naruto's chakra and he was still able to use Kyuubi because it's something seperate. Aang won't be able to touch it either.



> And Mr. Giant Lion Turtle is 10 times bigger than Gamabunta.



And infinitely more useless because he has no feats.



> The Ocean Spirit would slice Gamabunta's head off.  It sliced straight through the tower fo a fire nation battleship.



I don't remember that at all, so link me to a vid will ya.
Anyway, that doesn't sound too impressive...



> Also, comet-powered firebenders have more than enough fire to toast Bunta.



Like he'd just stand around and die, he'd jump & bombard them with water cannonballs.


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## Banhammer (Jan 9, 2009)

> And infinitely more useless because he has no feats.



He can remove powers.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 10, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> He can remove powers.



No, he can't try to. But he's not better at manipulating Chakra than the Naruto ninja's who's whole world is based on exactly that. He'd get consumed just as easily as Aang would.


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 10, 2009)

Nihonjin said:


> No earth bender has ever thrown anything even close to that size. And seeing as she was struggling to move the island, suggesting she could lift & throw it is to say the least, ridiculous.



She wasn't struggling to move the island.  She showed no physical strain, and the rate at which the island moved was constant.  I'm not saying she could throw a rock the size of the island; 1/2 the size should still be mountain-sized, though, and she'd have enough power to do it as an attack.



> Yeah, mind proving that? Why wouldn't the clones have insides?



Clones are composed of whatever there descriptor is- water, sand, shadow, etc.  When hit, they never show blood or guts- they just dissolve or poof out of existence.



> Toph's no precog, she reacts to the motion before the actual attack, in Gai's case, the premotion & the actual attack from Toph's perspective will be at the same time, she won't be reacting to anything. She'll get blitzed horribly.



Exactly.  She recognizes and reacts to the motion before the attack, well above normal reaction times.  Gai probably is still above her in speed, but he can't blitz.



> I remember some Anbu did exactly that.



Scan, please.



> 1) lol @ thinking Avatar's better at controlling energy than Naruto characters.
> If Aang tried to bend anyones Chakra, they'd just consume him.
> 
> 2) Neji completely shut down Naruto's chakra and he was still able to use Kyuubi because it's something seperate. Aang won't be able to touch it either.



1.  To quote the Lion Turtle, "To bend another's energy, your own spirit must be unbendable, or you will be corrupted and destroyed."  This almost happened to Aang with Ozai, but it didn't.  Just by doing it on Ozai proves Aang can't be consumed.  Besides, no ninjas I know of have ever used their chakra systems directly against others, besides Hyugas with Byakugan.  Aside from them, probably Bijuus have the best chance against resisting Aang, although Kyuubi doesn't have a good track record of resisting such powers (Yondaime, Orochimaru, Sasuke w/ Sharingan...)

2.  Neji's power is temporary, much like Ty Lee's.  Aang's power is permanent.  The closest thing to it in the Narutoverse is the technique Sandaime used to seal Orochimaru's arms... the same technique used to seal kyuubi.



> And infinitely more useless because he has no feats.



As I said, I was joking. 



> I don't remember that at all, so link me to a vid will ya.
> Anyway, that doesn't sound too impressive...



Well, unless Gamabunta's harder than steel, I would say it's impressive.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 11, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> She wasn't struggling to move the island.  She showed no physical strain, and the rate at which the island moved was constant.  I'm not saying she could throw a rock the size of the island; 1/2 the size should still be mountain-sized, though, and she'd have enough power to do it as an attack.



Judging by the speed at which she moved the island compared to regular Earthbending, I'd say even though she showed no physical strain it should be obvious that's all she could do to such a massive amount of earth.

I mean, I can move a couch at a constant rate with no physical strain, but that doesn't mean I can throw it or something half its size.



> Clones are composed of whatever there descriptor is- water, sand, shadow, etc.  When hit, they never show blood or guts- they just dissolve or poof out of existence.



They're _perfect_ clones until they get hit, then they return to being shadows, water, sand or whatever. If they lacked internal organs they wouldn't be able to think, breathe, talk or do anything at all.



> Exactly.  She recognizes and reacts to the motion before the attack, well above normal reaction times.  Gai probably is still above her in speed, but he can't blitz.



Toph predicts her opponents by reading their movements before their actual attack. But the thing is, the people she used it on move at regular human speed so there's a significant amount of time between the motion & the actual attack. Plenty of time for her analyze, recognize & move accordingly.

Gai on the other hand, moves so fast that the pre-movement and the actual attack happen virtually at the same time so she has absolutely no way to predict him. By the time her brain comprehends his movement as an attack, he'll have hit her multiple times already.



> Scan, please.



Chapter 169's translation

^Anbu stopping in midair.



> 1.  To quote the Lion Turtle, "To bend another's energy, your own spirit must be unbendable, or you will be corrupted and destroyed."  This almost happened to Aang with Ozai, but it didn't.  Just by doing it on Ozai proves Aang can't be consumed.



No limit Fallacy.



> Besides, no ninjas I know of have ever used their chakra systems directly against others, besides Hyugas with Byakugan.  Aside from them, probably Bijuus have the best chance against resisting Aang, although Kyuubi doesn't have a good track record of resisting such powers (Yondaime, Orochimaru, Sasuke w/ Sharingan...)



I'm sorry? How about dispelling Genjutsu by touch (pouring in their chakra to disrupt the flow of whoever they're touching)? Ninja's are taught to manipulate chakra from the second they're able to learn, do you honestly think Aang, who learned it in less than a day and used it once is better at it than they are?



> 2.  Neji's power is temporary, much like Ty Lee's.  Aang's power is permanent.  The closest thing to it in the Narutoverse is the technique Sandaime used to seal Orochimaru's arms... the same technique used to seal kyuubi.



lmfao @ comparing Aangs energy bending to a Death God stealing your soul.
Not sure if I should cry or laugh right now.



> Well, unless Gamabunta's harder than steel, I would say it's impressive.



Well, he survived Shukaku's attack. My guess is that would level any fire navy ship. So yeah, I'd say he's tougher than those ships.



> It's at -4:25



Can't see the vid cause of my region.
I've all the episodes on my HD though so if you tell me where to look I'll check it out.



> Good luck doing that against flying firebenders.  And the Ocean Spirit better not be around.



Luck has nothing to do with it.


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## Yoshitsuna (Jan 11, 2009)

Avatarverse stomps, like always.


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 11, 2009)

Nihonjin said:


> Judging by the speed at which she moved the island compared to regular Earthbending, I'd say even though she showed no physical strain it should be obvious that's all she could do to such a massive amount of earth.
> 
> I mean, I can move a couch at a constant rate with no physical strain, but that doesn't mean I can throw it or something half its size.



Yes, it takes more effort, but a rock 1/2 or 1/4 the size wouldn't take so much effort and could still be used as an attack.



> They're _perfect_ clones until they get hit, then they return to being shadows, water, sand or whatever. If they lacked internal organs they wouldn't be able to think, breathe, talk or do anything at all.



Or they could just do it because, ya know, they're magical.



> Toph predicts her opponents by reading their movements before their actual attack. But the thing is, the people she used it on move at regular human speed so there's a significant amount of time between the motion & the actual attack. Plenty of time for her analyze, recognize & move accordingly.
> 
> Gai on the other hand, moves so fast that the pre-movement and the actual attack happen virtually at the same time so she has absolutely no way to predict him. By the time her brain comprehends his movement as an attack, he'll have hit her multiple times already.



Plenty of time? Naruto Ninjas can't deal with an attack that takes less than five seconds.  Toph could react 

Joking aside, yes, Gai is faster.  But he's one of the fastest guys (pun unintended) in Naruto right now.  Toph can deal with other Naruto characters.



> Link removed
> 
> ^Anbu stopping in midair.



All I see is an Anbu slamming into a wall.  Changing direction, yes, but not without connecting to the ground.



> No limit Fallacy.



Well, if the Lion Turtle is to be believed, then it's legitimate.  At least, it would work for Aang as he's trying to energybend ninjas one by one.




> I'm sorry? How about dispelling Genjutsu by touch (pouring in their chakra to disrupt the flow of whoever they're touching)? Ninja's are taught to manipulate chakra from the second they're able to learn, do you honestly think Aang, who learned it in less than a day and used it once is better at it than they are?



Ok, didn't know about that.  That's not on the level of energybending, though.  Brief disruption of flow =/= stunning and taking powers away.

Mostly, Naruto ninja learn to control chakra in their own bodies.  Not directly against others.  And, judging by how effective genjutsu is, ninjas' chakra systems are quite vulnerable.  Aang, who learned it directly telepathically from a millenia-old being and got it down on his first try, should be able to do it on any Naruto ninja.



> lmfao @ comparing Aangs energy bending to a Death God stealing your soul.
> Not sure if I should cry or laugh right now.



I was just pointing out a similarity.  Other comparisons are valid, though- Aang used energybending to take away the power of Ozai, the big villain of the series, and the Death God Seal was used to seal Kyuubi, the biggest threat of the series.



> Well, he survived Shukaku's attack. My guess is that would level any fire navy ship. So yeah, I'd say he's tougher than those ships.



Steel> Wood 



> Can't see the vid cause of my region.
> I've all the episodes on my HD though so if you tell me where to look I'll check it out.



The Siege of the North, Part 2.  The part where the Ocean Spirit is pwning the FN fleet.  Should still be around -4:25


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 11, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Yes, it takes more effort, but a rock 1/2 or 1/4 the size wouldn't take so much effort *and could still be used as an attack.*



We could be arguing this back and forth all day long, but in the end, she never showed to be able to do such a thing. Best thing you could argue is saying she'd be able to do <insert greatest Earthbending attack in the series> or something similar/slightly better because she's an avatar.

Anything else unfounded.



> Or they could just do it because, ya know, they're magical.



Grasping straws now are we? It's not that hard to just admit you were wrong. It's _because_ they're magical your logic doesn't apply here.



> Joking aside, yes, Gai is faster.  But he's one of the fastest guys (pun unintended) in Naruto right now.  Toph can deal with other Naruto characters.



Toph predicts based on movement, to be able to do that she needs to have knowledge on how people move before certain attacks. Benders & Ninja's their attacks aren't even remotely the same when it comes to movement. We're talking about people doing a bunch of hand seals and suddenly blowing fire from their mouth, you can't expect Toph to predict that based on how they move. 

Combine that with the fact that the Naruto verse as far as I remember is considered well above peak human in terms of speed, and you'll have most of them blitzing Toph horribly and others surprising her with unorthodox movement.

To her they'd just be standing still and suddenly she'd get hit with something.
If you don't believe me, watch her fight with Aang. He's light on his feet so she had no idea where he was, then he jumped and shot her with a blast of Air, she never saw it coming.



> All I see is an Anbu slamming into a wall.  Changing direction, yes, but not without connecting to the ground.



Top left panel shows three Anbu, two in the air with a forward motion and one crashing into the wall. Now, even though the other two noticed, they shouldn't have been able to prevent themselves from crashing into it as well, unless they stopped themselves in midair.



> Well, if the Lion Turtle is to be believed, then it's legitimate.  At least, it would work for Aang as he's trying to energybend ninjas one by one.



What part of no limit did you not understand? Just because Aang succeeded against Ozai doesn't mean he'll succeed against everyone.



> Mostly, Naruto ninja learn to control chakra in their own bodies.  Not directly against others.  And, *judging by how effective genjutsu is, ninjas' chakra systems are quite vulnerable.*



It's that effective because they're experts at using & manipulating Chakra.



> Aang, who learned it directly telepathically from a millenia-old being and got it down on his first try, should be able to do it on any Naruto ninja.



And yet, he almost got consumed by Ozai, who can't energy bend at all.

Saying Aang can bend Naruto ninja's their chakra is as stupid as saying he can do it to that turtle. 

They have literally a over a thousand times more experience and Aang doesn't seem especially skilled at it.



> I was just pointing out a similarity.  Other comparisons are valid, though- Aang used energybending to take away the power of Ozai, the big villain of the series, and the Death God Seal was used to seal Kyuubi, the biggest threat of the series.



Being used for similar purposes doesn't make them similar attacks.





> Steel> Wood



A hollow steel box with 5cm thick walls isn't more durable than a giant tree.
What I'm saying is size & structure plays a role too, not just the material.  





> The Siege of the North, Part 2.  The part where the Ocean Spirit is pwning the FN fleet.  Should still be around -4:25



I'll check it out, though I doubt it'll change my argument.


----------



## tmac171717 (Jan 11, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> She wasn't struggling to move the island.  She showed no physical strain, and the rate at which the island moved was constant.  I'm not saying she could throw a rock the size of the island; 1/2 the size should still be mountain-sized, though, and she'd have enough power to do it as an attack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 11, 2009)

Nihonjin said:


> We could be arguing this back and forth all day long, but in the end, she never showed to be able to do such a thing. Best thing you could argue is saying she'd be able to do <insert greatest Earthbending attack in the series> or something similar/slightly better because she's an avatar.
> 
> Anything else unfounded.



She.  Moved.  The.  Island.

She has the raw power to move it.  She could use the same power on a smaller rock and use it as an attack, but it would still be mountain-size.

Put Avatars together and they'll move even bigger rocks.



> Grasping straws now are we? It's not that hard to just admit you were wrong. It's _because_ they're magical your logic doesn't apply here.



No, this can be taken one way or the other.  We can't definitely prove that the clones talk because they're magical or real.  We just have to guess based on other information, which I think means they're not real on the inside.  The fact that they talk doesn't prove anything.



> Toph predicts based on movement, to be able to do that she needs to have knowledge on how people move before certain attacks. Benders & Ninja's their attacks aren't even remotely the same when it comes to movement. We're talking about people doing a bunch of hand seals and suddenly blowing fire from their mouth, you can't expect Toph to predict that based on how they move.
> 
> Combine that with the fact that the Naruto verse as far as I remember is considered well above peak human in terms of speed, and you'll have most of them blitzing Toph horribly and others surprising her with unorthodox movement.
> 
> ...



Good point.  But, it wouldn't take long to catch on.  BTW, she would kind of know what to expect when ninjas do jutsus, because they yell out the technique names before doing them.  So much for subtlety.

A good portion is well above human speed; not all of them.  Even if they are, once Toph catches on she could react.

Aang was changing his direction using airbending, which Toph didn't expect.  And he didn't shout out his technique name.



> Top left panel shows three Anbu, two in the air with a forward motion and one crashing into the wall. Now, even though the other two noticed, they shouldn't have been able to prevent themselves from crashing into it as well, unless they stopped themselves in midair.



Or they could have just been ready for it, and lightened their landing on it.



> What part of no limit did you not understand? Just because Aang succeeded against Ozai doesn't mean he'll succeed against everyone.



Straw man.

"To bend another's energy, your own spirit must be unbendable".

It's not that Aang would succeed against everyone, he just won't be consumed if he tries it again.



> It's that effective because they're experts at using & manipulating Chakra.



Or the jutsu design does it for them, and can only be used for the purpose of affecting the mind, not resisting major influence on their own chakra system.  Not flexible.



> And yet, he almost got consumed by Ozai, who can't energy bend at all.
> 
> Saying Aang can bend Naruto ninja's their chakra is as stupid as saying he can do it to that turtle.
> 
> They have literally a over a thousand times more experience and Aang doesn't seem especially skilled at it.



But he did.  And it seems that Avatar people automatically resist energybending, if the Lion Turtle is to be believed.

Whoa- ok, did you just compare the chakra-manipulating skill of ninja to the millienia old lion turtle?  Ok, you've given me the right to go



Judging by the rate Aang overtook Ozai by the time he got it down, I'd say Aang's quite adept with energybending.  He can do it to Naruto ninja, no problem.



> A hollow steel box with 5cm thick walls isn't more durable than a giant tree.
> What I'm saying is size & structure plays a role too, not just the material.



It's not hollow.  It's filled with lots of thick steel walls.  And it wasn't some giant tree Shukaku knocked down, it was a bunch of normal-size trees.  That it knocked down, it didn't slice.  The nature of the attacks are different.



			
				tmac171717 said:
			
		

> He can't block the foxes chakra because he doesn't know about the fox.Stop making things up.



He would know about the fox the moment Naruto started using it.



> Who said he would just stay there while he comes over??



Energybending stuns the victim once started.



> He punched him fast, but When oro does other attacks that keeps his body on him the chakra burns the crap out of him.LOL He not going to be able to stun him because he will get destroyed.



Aang can freeze lava.  He should be able to protect his hands.



> The ocean spirt is slow has hell and Buta would just aim for aang and cut his head off.



The water bullet would just dissolve into the Ocean Spirit, seeing as it controls water.



> A log or clay.he does it all the time.



At 200 feet in the air? Scan please.




> Show me someone getting Mountains drop on there head in Avatar.ALso Pain would of read her mind and got closer to them and pwn them before that happens.



Kyoshi moved an island.  She, or other avatars combined, could use mountains as attacks.  And how can Pain read the mind of someone who's half a mile away, that he isn't expecting an attack from?



> GTFO with this Mountain BS.They Sasuke would get to them beore they even blink and cut there heads off.He will also copy every single crap they do.



Not from half a mile away.  And Sasuke is not copying bending.  The forms, yes; but not the actual ability.



> LOL It just seems all of ur fighting similations have the naruto characters Standing there.Killerbee would Take them all out.



No, the Avatar characters would just stand at safe distances and attack before the Naruto characters could retaliate.  You didn't respond to my actual strategy to take down Killer Bee, btw.


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 11, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> She. *SLOWLY*. Moved.  The.  Island.
> 
> She has the raw power to move it.  She could use the same power on a smaller rock and use it as an attack, but it would still be mountain-size.



Prove to me what the biggest rock is she could use as an attack.



> Put Avatars together and they'll move even bigger rocks.



Together? Sure, you'd need a whole lot though.



> No, this can be taken one way or the other.  We can't definitely prove that the clones talk because they're magical or real.  We just have to guess based on other information, which I think means they're not real on the inside.  The fact that they talk doesn't prove anything.



They look real, they act real, feel real.
Burden of proof's on you.



> Good point.  But, it wouldn't take long to catch on.  BTW, she would kind of know what to expect when ninjas do jutsus, because they yell out the technique names before doing them.  So much for subtlety.



CIS = Off.



> A good portion is well above human speed; not all of them.  Even if they are, once Toph catches on she could react.



Don't you get it? Toph would be dead before she catches on.
And even she found all 7 Dragonballs and wished she could catch on, there's still nothing to suggest her body can keep up with their speed. (Remember Sasuke vs Lee?)



> Aang was changing his direction using airbending, which Toph didn't expect.  And he didn't shout out his technique name.



What caught her off-guard was the fact that he's light on his feet, so she could barely "see" him. Combined with an attack that she couldn't predict by reading his footwork.

Naruto ninja's have the same advantages Aang did. They're light on their feet, you can't predict their attacks based on their footwork and as a bonus they're a shit ton faster than anyone from Avatar. She will get Blitzed.



> Or they could have just been ready for it, and lightened their landing on it.



So you're saying, they touched the energy field, but because they saw it coming they didn't crash into it as hard as the first guy (ignoring the fact that they didn't burst into flames like the first guy), and Kishi just happened to forget to draw it in, right? This is probably the saddest excuse I've heard in a while.

You wanted proof, I gave you proof, do us both a favor and just accept it, or prove it false. Don't go making things up.



> Straw man.



..Dude..._come on_.

*You:* by doing it on Ozai proves Aang can't be consumed.
*Me:* No limit fallacy
*You:* Well, if the Lion Turtle is to be believed, then it's legitimate. At least, it would work for Aang as he's trying to energybend ninjas one by one.
*Me:* Just because Aang succeeded against Ozai doesn't mean he'll succeed against everyone.
*You:* Straw man.

I don't know if you noticed, but that really is your argument...
Because as far as I remember, there is no middle ground in energy bending.
Either you succeed, or you fail and get consumed. So saying Aang can't get consumed really is saying he'll succeed with everyone.



> "*To bend another's energy, your own spirit must be unbendable*".
> 
> It's not that Aang would succeed against everyone, he just won't be consumed if he tries it again.



It's a *warning*! If you try to energy bend without having a virtually unbendable spirit it can (and most likely will) horribly backfire on you sooner or later, that's all it means. It doesn't mean that if someone can energy bend, they can't get consumed, that's just friggin' ridiculous. Besides the fact that Ozai almost consumed him should be proof enough that he _can_ get overpowered.

So I'll say it again, if Aang (or anyone else for that matter) tries to energy bend Ninja's, he'll end up like Ozai.



> Or the jutsu design does it for them, and can only be used for the purpose of affecting the mind, not resisting major influence on their own chakra system.  Not flexible.



Who cares? They're still experts at controlling their own chakra and influencing yours. So if Ozai who has absolutely no experience in energy bending, can almost consume Aang, then Ninja's who've been bending energy all their lives shouldn't have any trouble curbstomping him if he tries to mess with theirs.



> But he did.  And it seems that Avatar people automatically resist energybending, if the Lion Turtle is to be believed.



Again, if someone not even familiar with the concept of energy bending can almost consume Aang, he has no chance with experts.



> Whoa- ok, did you just compare the chakra-manipulating skill of ninja to the millienia old lion turtle?  Ok, you've given me the right to go



I just compared them as both being familiar with Energy Bending.
Not sure what's so funny though seeing as the turtle has absolutely no feats. Heck, I'd put Ninja's above him in terms of using Chakra.

You can laugh all you want, but do me a favor and show me 1 thing the turtle did that's more impressive than your avarage Naruto chapter other than being ridiculously huge & old.



> Judging by the rate Aang overtook Ozai by the time he got it down, I'd say Aang's quite adept with energybending.  He can do it to Naruto ninja, no problem.



Just because he made a spectacular comeback doesn't change the fact that he was horribly losing to a rookie. He's not good at it, _at all_.



> It's not hollow.  It's filled with lots of thick steel walls.  And it wasn't some giant tree Shukaku knocked down, it was a bunch of normal-size trees.  That it knocked down, it didn't slice.  The nature of the attacks are different.



Read it again. I'm not talking about their feats. It was just an example.


----------



## icemaster143 (Jan 11, 2009)

> What caught her off-guard was the fact that he's light on his feet, so she could barely "see" him. Combined with an attack that she couldn't predict by reading his footwork.
> 
> Like I said earlier, Naruto ninja's have all the same advantages. They're light on their feet so nearly invisible to Toph, you can't predict their attacks based on their footwork and as a bonus they're a shit ton faster than anyone from Avatar. She will get Blitzed.



Lets also not forget that ninja's can walk on walls and the ceilings avoiding her detection all together.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 11, 2009)

> Lets also not forget that ninja's can walk on walls and the ceilings avoiding her detection all together.



Do you have any idea how stupid that statement is?

And gods damn you all for dragging me back into this.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 11, 2009)

icemaster143 said:


> Lets also not forget that ninja's can walk on walls and the ceilings avoiding her detection all together.





The actual debaters in this thread don't have time for this kind of frivolous prattle.  Please, go back to the hole you crawled out of, you've amused me enough. 



> Originally Posted by *Nihonjin*
> 
> So I'll say it again, if Aang (or anyone else for that matter) tries to energy bend Ninja's, he'll end up like Ozai.



:rofl

lol no.  Even if Aang has trouble, the other Avatars would still be there with Energybending as well as the giant LionTurtle.  Fail logic is fail.


----------



## icemaster143 (Jan 11, 2009)

Disorderly Conduct said:


> The actual debaters in this thread don't have time for this kind of frivolous prattle.  Please, go back to the hole you crawled out of, you've amused me enough.




If you have a counter to my point please feel free to bring it up. But it seems to me you have none.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 11, 2009)

Walls generally tend to be connected to the ground, and are further connected to the roof as a means of holding the roof up. Vibrations tend to travel through things that are somehow connected to, or are otherwise touching, eachother.

To that end, vibrations probably will travel from the walls/ceiling to the ground unless said walls are somehow floating above the ground and/or said ceiling is floating above the walls.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 11, 2009)

> If you have a counter to my point please feel free to bring it up. But it seems to me you have none.



Toph is capable of seeing structures which are standing up and still connected to the ground.  In fact, she does this many times throughout the show.  She could "see" the entire tower in the sand and knew when it was sinking, she felt the vibrations of the iron box she was being held in, and felt when a rock slide was coming towards them from above.

I didn't bother pointing this all out before because it should've been obvious.  But I must often remind myself that most people do not have the high level of common sense that I do. 

But please, feel free to amuse me further.


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 11, 2009)

icemaster143 said:


> Lets also not forget that ninja's can walk on walls and the ceilings avoiding her detection all together.



You make our side look bad 



Onomatopoeia said:


> Do you have any idea how stupid that statement is?



I thought Hell'd freeze over before we'd agree on anything, but it seems I've once again underestimated human stupidity.



Disorderly Conduct said:


> lol no.  Even if Aang has trouble, the other Avatars would still be there with Energybending as well as the giant LionTurtle.  Fail logic is fail.



I'm sorry, but how does this even qualify as a reply to what I said?


----------



## icemaster143 (Jan 11, 2009)

Right guess that explains all those traps they walked into in the earth kingdom where badguys simply bended an opening and had them surrounded. 

Her abilities has limits since she senses the vibrations using her feet. 

Also Ninja's don't even actually touch the surface they walk on create a gravity field as seen in the forest of death.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 11, 2009)

> Right guess that explains all those traps they walked into in the earth kingdom where badguys simply bended an opening and had them surrounded.



Which traps were these again?



> Her abilities has limits since she senses the vibrations using her feet



And people standing on the walls/ceiling will make just as many vibrations as people standing on the ground.



> Also Ninja's don't even actually touch the surface they walk on create a gravity field as seen in the forest of death.




Yeah....you're gonna have to prove this.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 11, 2009)

icemaster143 said:


> Right guess that explains all those traps they walked into in the earth kingdom where badguys simply bended an opening and had them surrounded.
> 
> Her abilities has limits since she senses the vibrations using her feet.
> 
> Also Ninja's don't even actually touch the surface they walk on create a gravity field as seen in the forest of death.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtS7KM8rV-s[/YOUTUBE]

Any trivial weakness Toph's ability has won't be exploited by the ninjas at all bcause they wouldn't figure out how her ability works.  Even if they did, they'd still be dealing with all the Avatars who have the same ability she does as well as, you guessed it, FLIGHT! *GASP-SHOCK-OH NO!*



> I'm sorry, but how does this even qualify as a reply to what I said?



Unless you're implying that every Avatar would be consumed when trying to energybend a ninja, which would be foolish, then it is a perfect response to what you said. *DUN DUN DUN!*


----------



## icemaster143 (Jan 12, 2009)

Here is an example of Sasuke using this ability to grab a Kunai with Chakra Notice how in the side profile it has a clear look at the blade hovering slightly away from the surface.

Link removed


As for the episodes where they got ambushed like that sorry it's been a while since I have seen the Book II :season of avatar.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 12, 2009)

Neither of those things prove anything.


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 12, 2009)

Disorderly Conduct said:


> *Unless you're implying that every Avatar would be consumed when trying to energybend a ninja*, which would be foolish, then it is a perfect response to what you said. *DUN DUN DUN!*



That's exactly what I'm implying. Non of them have ever shown the ability to energy bend, so I assume you think they're able to because Aang can. In that case, they suck at it as much as he does.

If you think that's foolish, fine. Then it shouldn't be hard for you to give a proper argument as to why you think they'd succeed where Aang fails.


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 12, 2009)

Nihonjin said:


> Prove to me what the biggest rock is she could use as an attack.



There's no definite attack.  But that doesn't mean we can disregard her island moving feat altogether.

You know, I'm sure there's a way to calculate the rate she was moving the island with the size of the island and figure out what her attack would be.  I'm not going to do it right now, though.



> They look real, they act real, feel real.
> Burden of proof's on you.



Except when they die.  You know, they poof or dissolve.

Real bodies don't do that.



> CIS = Off.



CIS has nothing to do with it.  It's just the way jutsus work in Naruto.



> Don't you get it? Toph would be dead before she catches on.
> And even she found all 7 Dragonballs and wished she could catch on, there's still nothing to suggest her body can keep up with their speed. (Remember Sasuke vs Lee?)



Against speedsters like Gai or Lee, yes.

Against more normal people like Shino or Sakura, no.  She could keep up, reaction wise.



> What caught her off-guard was the fact that he's light on his feet, so she could barely "see" him. Combined with an attack that she couldn't predict by reading his footwork.
> 
> Naruto ninja's have the same advantages Aang did. They're light on their feet, you can't predict their attacks based on their footwork and as a bonus they're a shit ton faster than anyone from Avatar. She will get Blitzed.



No, she sensed him whenever he touched the ground.  What really threw her off is that, being an airbender, he could move quite a bit without touching the ground, and change his direction midair.  Naruto ninjas don't normally do that.



> So you're saying, they touched the energy field, but because they saw it coming they didn't crash into it as hard as the first guy (ignoring the fact that they didn't burst into flames like the first guy), and Kishi just happened to forget to draw it in, right? This is probably the saddest excuse I've heard in a while.



Two explanations, no way to prove them.  I'll ask you one thing, though:  the landing is easily explainable- they simply landed on the wall with their legs.  If they changed direction, though, the question remains:  How?  Can you explain just how they did it.



> ..Dude..._come on_.
> 
> *You:* by doing it on Ozai proves Aang can't be consumed.
> *Me:* No limit fallacy
> ...



Ok.  I thought you meant "succeed" as in "would be able to strip anyone".  But you meant "succeed" as in "would not be consumed."

Interesting idea.



> It's a *warning*! If you try to energy bend without having a virtually unbendable spirit it can (and most likely will) horribly backfire on you sooner or later, that's all it means. It doesn't mean that if someone can energy bend, they can't get consumed, that's just friggin' ridiculous. Besides the fact that Ozai almost consumed him should be proof enough that he _can_ get overpowered.
> 
> So I'll say it again, if Aang (or anyone else for that matter) tries to energy bend Ninja's, he'll end up like Ozai.
> 
> Who cares? They're still experts at controlling their own chakra and influencing yours. So if Ozai who has absolutely no experience in energy bending, can almost consume Aang, then Ninja's who've been bending energy all their lives shouldn't have any trouble curbstomping him if he tries to mess with theirs. Again, if someone not even familiar with the concept of energy bending can almost consume Aang, he has no chance with experts.



Actually, failed energybending kills the person attempting, but anyway...

Name 1 way Naruto ninja would resist.  Aside from saying "They control their chakra".  I want feats.



> I just compared them as both being familiar with Energy Bending.
> Not sure what's so funny though seeing as the turtle has absolutely no feats. Heck, I'd put Ninja's above him in terms of using Chakra.
> 
> You can laugh all you want, but do me a favor and show me 1 thing the turtle did that's more impressive than your avarage Naruto chapter other than being ridiculously huge & old.



Ok, he doesn't have any feats, but let's be real here.

A giant lion turtle, who existed before the Avatar was even created, who has been energybending for millenia.

Against a little ninja who's at best just over half a century old.

We can't debate about the lion turtle, but that doesn't mean we can just bring him down to _that_ level of weakness. 




> Just because he made a spectacular comeback doesn't change the fact that he was horribly losing to a rookie. He's not good at it, _at all_.



Then... how did he win?  On his first try?



> That's exactly what I'm implying. Non of them have ever shown the ability to energy bend, so I assume you think they're able to because Aang can. In that case, they suck at it as much as he does.
> 
> If you think that's foolish, fine. Then it shouldn't be hard for you to give a proper argument as to why you think they'd succeed where Aang fails.



While not all Avatars energybend, some do.  The official Avatar website describes energybending as a technique "few Avatars have learned".  Meaning some have.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 12, 2009)

What are you rambeling about?  Aang never failed, and the other Avatars have far more experience than Aang, meaning  they will have much stronger spirits than him, which is why they would do even better.

Their own unbendable spirits were shrown when they all told Aang to kill Ozai.


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 12, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> There's no definite attack.  But that doesn't mean we can disregard her island moving feat altogether.
> 
> You know, I'm sure there's a way to calculate the rate she was moving the island with the size of the island and figure out what her attack would be.  I'm not going to do it right now, though.



Then don't say she can throw a mountain until you do.



> Except when they die.  You know, they poof or dissolve.



It's not when they die, it's when the technique gets canceled either by the user or forcefully by someone else when the clones get hit.

During the technique as I've pointed out before, they're solid, breathing, thinking clones. No reason to suggest they're still part water, sand or anything else. If they were, then Shadow clones shouldn't even be able to hit people.



> Real bodies don't do that.







> CIS has nothing to do with it.  It's just the way jutsus work in Naruto.



Like how Kakashi used Chidori on Kakuzu right?
Or like how Naruto used Rasengan on Pain right?
Yeah, CIS.



> Against speedsters like Gai or Lee, yes.
> 
> Against more normal people like Shino or Sakura, no.  She could keep up, reaction wise.



Sure, she can predict Sakura. She has no illogical attacks or anything, just punches and kicks.

But Shino? How's she going to predcit bugs coming out of his sleeves by following his footwork?



> No, she sensed him whenever he touched the ground.  What really threw her off is that, being an airbender, he could move quite a bit without touching the ground, and change his direction midair.  Naruto ninjas don't normally do that.



That's why she had no idea where he was until he said something right?

Either way, stop avoiding my main point. Like I said, she couldn't predict his attack because based on his footwork it should've never happened. 



> Two explanations, no way to prove them.  I'll ask you one thing, though:  the landing is easily explainable- they simply landed on the wall with their legs.



Touch the wall = burst into flames. They're not on fire, so they didn't touch the wall.



> If they changed direction, though, the question remains:  How?  Can you explain just how they did it.



Same way they walk on walls, water, creating clones, illusions, elements, etc.
Really, who cares how they did it? The fact remains that they were flying forward on one panel, and on the ground the next. They had absolutely no way of stopping like that unless they changed their direction mid-air, so they did. The two panels proved they did. You're the one suggesting something else happened, go find proof, or accept it.



> Actually, failed energybending kills the person attempting, but anyway...



Even better, then he dies the second he tries it.



> Name 1 way Naruto ninja would resist.  Aside from saying "They control their chakra".  I want feats.



What the hell do you expect me to show you?

My whole argument is that Aang almost failed to energy bend someone oblivious to its existence, why should we believe he'll be able to do it to an energy bending expert? If you can give me a logical reason to believe that, then we'll continue arguing.



> Ok, he doesn't have any feats, but let's be real here.
> 
> A giant lion turtle, who existed before the Avatar was even created, who has been energybending for millenia.
> 
> ...



Then what do you suggest we do?



> Then... how did he win?  On his first try?



By barely beating Ozai.
So his best energy bending feat is stripping an energy bending novice from his powers. If he tried to do that to a master he'd fail.



> While not all Avatars energybend, some do.  The official Avatar website describes energybending as a technique "few Avatars have learned".  Meaning some have.



How many and how good are they at it?



Disorderly Conduct said:


> What are you rambeling about?  Aang never failed, and the other Avatars have far more experience than Aang, meaning  they will have much stronger spirits than him, which is why they would do even better.



How much better?



> Their own unbendable spirits were shrown when they all told Aang to kill Ozai.



What would happen, if one Avatar would try to energy bend another Avatar?


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 12, 2009)

> It's not going to staart 4 tails is way faster and stronger



What's this tripe about KN4 being faster? He never once moved from the spot he was on to my memory.

Not like Naruto would ever reach KN4. He makes a point to not use the Kyuubi chakra at all IIRC.




> ??I said he would aim for aang who u can clearly see and cut his head off



Aang being inside the Ocean Spirit, which the water bullet would dissolve into on account of him being able to control water.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 12, 2009)

> Narutoverse>>iavataerverse in terms of speed


Narutoverse's speed has nothing to do with KN4's speed. If it's never moved from that spot you got no way of backing up his speed.



> .I said he would aim for aang.



Aang being inside the Ocean Spirit, which the water bullet would dissolve into on account of him being able to control water.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jan 13, 2009)

Energy bending doesn't have enough feats to be used the way it is being used in this thread.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 13, 2009)

Neither does any other type of bending, or any sort of magic-ninja techniques. 

We tend to ignore these facts in favor of the debate.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jan 13, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Neither does any other type of bending, or any sort of magic-ninja techniques.
> 
> We tend to ignore these facts in favor of the debate.



So you ignore actual limitations and uses of abilities to insert what you believe they're capable of.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 13, 2009)

Absolutely. It's all the rage these days, everyone's doing it.

Also, what actual limitations am I ignoring and what uses of abilities am I inserting? For my own reference.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jan 13, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Absolutely. It's all the rage these days, everyone's doing it.
> 
> Also, what actual limitations am I ignoring and what uses of abilities am I inserting? For my own reference.



Limitations are what we have seen of the ability. Anyone who possesses greater energy control(falling under chakra since it's just generic mystic energy) would be able to avoid it. One should not assume the other Avatars have greater control over the ability than Aang based on the simple fact that we know next to nothing about them.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 13, 2009)

Well, I don't particularly have any desire to argue whether they could resist it. 

As for other Avatars possessing it, I imagine that if they say "Something few Avatars possess" that means other Avatars besides Aang possessed it. And unless the Avatars in question happened to be Yangchen, Kuruk and Kyoshi, I'm gonna assume that a good number of them have it. Maybe not most, but plenty.

Not that it matters either way, I suppose. Whichever side would win *coughavatarcoughcough* would do so without Energybending being an issue.


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 13, 2009)

Nihonjin said:


> Then don't say she can throw a mountain until you do.



Oh, I will.  I guess we won't agree on it until the calcs are done.



> It's not when they die, it's when the technique gets canceled either by the user or forcefully by someone else when the clones get hit.
> 
> During the technique as I've pointed out before, they're solid, breathing, thinking clones. No reason to suggest they're still part water, sand or anything else. If they were, then Shadow clones shouldn't even be able to hit people.



They're physical, yes.  That does nothing to prove they are fully organic.



> Like how Kakashi used Chidori on Kakuzu right?
> Or like how Naruto used Rasengan on Pain right?
> Yeah, CIS.



Some techniques don't involve calling it out, yes.  But what does that have to do with character?  Calling out technique names is not character variety or development.



> Sure, she can predict Sakura. She has no illogical attacks or anything, just punches and kicks.
> 
> But Shino? How's she going to predcit bugs coming out of his sleeves by following his footwork?



Not predict, just react.  And, judging by how Toph was able to sense an ant colony ~30 meters away in her premiere ep, bugs won't be a problem.



> That's why she had no idea where he was until he said something right?
> 
> Either way, stop avoiding my main point. Like I said, she couldn't predict his attack because based on his footwork it should've never happened.



She had no idea where he was until he landed.

What are we arguing, then?  I know Toph was unprepared for Aang's air attack.



> Touch the wall = burst into flames. They're not on fire, so they didn't touch the wall.



Scan of the person who hit bursting into flames then, please.



> Same way they walk on walls, water, creating clones, illusions, elements, etc.
> Really, who cares how they did it? The fact remains that they were flying forward on one panel, and on the ground the next. They had absolutely no way of stopping like that unless they changed their direction mid-air, so they did. The two panels proved they did. You're the one suggesting something else happened, go find proof, or accept it.



So Kage Bunshin can just be used to change direction in midair now! Cool!

Point is, no, it's not the same way.  You have to prove that a technique or method exists in the Narutoverse for changing direction midair.  Aside from this occurence, it has never happened again.  In this occurence, there was no big deal made of it, no one pointing out they changed direction in midair.  Blame Kishi for yet again messing his physics up.



> What the hell do you expect me to show you?
> 
> My whole argument is that Aang almost failed to energy bend someone oblivious to its existence, why should we believe he'll be able to do it to an energy bending expert? If you can give me a logical reason to believe that, then we'll continue arguing.



Show me a scan of a ninja resisting influence to their chakra system.  And I mean majorly resisting, not just quickly dispelling genjutsu.

I'll say it again:  he _didn't_ fail.  You have to prove the Naruto ninja are better at resisting than Ozai.  You need feats to do that.



> Then what do you suggest we do?



Ignore him, basically.  I brought him up first, but that was a joke.  Don't go comparing the lion turtle's energybending to ninja chakra control when you have no basis.



> By barely beating Ozai.
> So his best energy bending feat is stripping an energy bending novice from his powers. If he tried to do that to a master he'd fail.



Probably, but you have to prove that Naruto ninja are masters of direct chakra control.  Not just using it for magical attacks, which is basically the same as element bending.



> How many and how good are they at it?



Unknown, but they're there.  Now don't go discounting them for the sake of no feats, or you give me the right to discredit the jutsu ability of every ninja who's never appeared in the manga.  They don't have feats either.



> What would happen, if one Avatar would try to energy bend another Avatar?



Perhaps neither would succeed, and both would live.



			
				mystictrunks said:
			
		

> Energy bending doesn't have enough feats to be used the way it is being used in this thread.



And most Naruto ninja don't have enough feats to resist energybending


----------



## Shock Therapy (Jan 13, 2009)

Why is this still up, Naruto can't beat Avatar period.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 19, 2009)

After actually watching some more of Avatar, I have come to the conclusion that in fact, Lee solos this shit. Good luck blood-bending and moving mountains and shit before getting pwned in the face by an extremely highspeed kick.

Rape thread is rape.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jan 19, 2009)

I would have given the win to Narutoverse even before their recent powerups - but now it's basically a foregone conclusion.

What are the arguments for Avatarverse at this point? Because unless I missed something major I'm not seeing how they can win


----------



## nordic (Jan 19, 2009)

Kimimaro solos. Good luck trying to bend while getting killed by bones.


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 19, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> I would have given the win to Narutoverse even before their recent powerups - but now it's basically a foregone conclusion.
> 
> What are the arguments for Avatarverse at this point? Because unless I missed something major I'm not seeing how they can win



I would agree with you, except for the fact that the OP said all past Avatars are in this fight.  Meaning the Narutoverse is facing hundreds, if not thousands, of guys on the level of Avatar State Aang.  That would be very difficult for the Narutoverse to overcome.

And Nikushimi: again



Just how would Lee even beat Avatar State Aang, when he's flying around shooting his rock railgun?  Even if he could, how would he beat _hundreds_ of guys like that?

And nordic...  Ozai flies up and burns Kimminaro so that the only thing left is his bones.  GG.


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 19, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Oh, I will.  I guess we won't agree on it until the calcs are done.



Guess we agree on something.



> They're physical, yes.  That does nothing to prove they are fully organic.



There is nothing to suggest they aren't.



> Some techniques don't involve calling it out, yes.  But what does that have to do with character?  Calling out technique names is not character variety or development.



Techniques don't involve calling out names. They involve chakra manipulation & handseals. The only reason they "shout" the names is so we readers know what's going on, it's not something that's required to do the technique.

And seeing as stupidity is off, they won't be doing so.



> Not predict, just react.  And, judging by how Toph was able to sense an ant colony ~30 meters away in her premiere ep, bugs won't be a problem.



1) The bugs fly
2) Why would she recognize them as a threat?

Yeah, they'll be a problem.



> She had no idea where he was until he landed.



Even after he landed she had no idea until he said something.



> What are we arguing, then?  I know Toph was unprepared for Aang's air attack.



It was because she couldn't read it based on his footwork, much like how she won't be able to read most of the Narutoverse attacks.



> Scan of the person who hit bursting into flames then, please.



It's the same page...same page 



> Point is, no, it's not the same way.  You have to prove that a technique or method exists in the Narutoverse for changing direction midair.



The Anbu did it = proof.



> Aside from this occurence, it has never happened again.



Neither did one handed seals.



> In this occurence, there was no big deal made of it, no one pointing out they changed direction in midair.



This is a requirement how? Why would someone have to say it out loud before you accept it?



> Blame Kishi for yet again messing his physics up.



How exactly is it messed up?



> Show me a scan of a ninja resisting influence to their chakra system.  And I mean majorly resisting, not just quickly dispelling genjutsu.



*sigh*



> I'll say it again:  he _didn't_ fail.  You have to prove the Naruto ninja are better at resisting than Ozai.  You need feats to do that.



What more proof than the fact that they've been "energy bending" their entire lives opposed to Ozai who didn't even know of its existence could you possibly want?



> Ignore him, basically.  I brought him up first, but that was a joke.



Fine by me.



> Don't go comparing the lion turtle's energybending to ninja chakra control when you have no basis.



That was my entire point. Ninja's have feats, turtle has no feats. Ninja's win by default.



> Probably,



Probably? Try definitely.



> but you have to prove that Naruto ninja are masters of direct chakra control.



To energy bend you have to bend a persons energy, right?
In other words, your control over their energy has to override theirs, right?
So you have to be better at controlling their energy, than they are at controlling it, right?
So the better a person is at controlling his own energy, the harder it is for someone else to forcefully bend it to their will, right?
Naruto ninja's have mastered their energy to the point where they can create physical things out of thin air, don't you think it's at least a little bit absurd to suggest someone like Aang has better control over their chakra than they do?



> Not just using it for magical attacks, which is basically the same as element bending.



Bending existing elements vs making elements (and a lot more) out of thin air with energy?
No, it's not the same...at all.



> Now don't go discounting them for the sake of no feats



I'm not, they'll get the best energy bending feat of the series, they can all bend Ozai.



> Perhaps neither would succeed, and both would live.



And that's more logical than having one of them win?

Alright, lets say the turtle tries to energy bend an avatar, what would happen?



> And most Naruto ninja don't have enough feats to resist energybending



Yes, yes they do.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 19, 2009)

By all the gods in heaven why is this thread still going on.



> Techniques don't involve calling out names. They involve chakra manipulation & handseals. The only reason they "shout" the names is so we readers know what's going on, it's not something that's required to do the technique.
> 
> And seeing as stupidity is off, they won't be doing so.



CIS is on, so yes, they will be shouting it out.


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 19, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> By all the gods in heaven why is this thread still going on.



Boredom from both sides.





> CIS is on, so yes, they will be shouting it out.



Ah.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 19, 2009)

Stop. Bumping. This. Thread. Now.




> Originally Posted by *Endless Mike*
> 
> What are the arguments for Avatarverse at this point? Because unless I missed something major I'm not seeing how they can win



Hundreds to thousands of Avatars, the Lionturtle, dragons, bloodbenders, Koh, the Avatarverse has preptime, and the fact that they have many characters who can fly.



> Kimimaro solos. Good luck trying to bend while getting killed by bones.



Get out, you're not even giving your side a good argument.


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 19, 2009)

Disorderly Conduct said:


> the Lionturtle, dragons, bloodbenders, Koh, the Avatarverse has preptime, and the fact that they have many characters who can fly.



Lion turtle - sucks
Dragons - suck
Blood benders - just two of em
Koh - sucks
Preptime - so?


----------



## Shock Therapy (Jan 19, 2009)

the lion turtle can fight the rhino  and the dragons stomp on the frogs


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 20, 2009)

Nihonjin said:


> There is nothing to suggest they aren't.



The fact that they appear out of nothing and dissolve into water, sand, shadow, etc., does.




> Techniques don't involve calling out names. They involve chakra manipulation & handseals. The only reason they "shout" the names is so we readers know what's going on, it's not something that's required to do the technique.
> 
> And seeing as stupidity is off, they won't be doing so.



Not all stupidity.  Just CIS.  Not AIS (That's Author Induced Stupidity).




> 1) The bugs fly
> 2) Why would she recognize them as a threat?
> 
> Yeah, they'll be a problem.



Allow me to restate what I said in an old Toph vs. Shino thread.

Way for Toph to win- She encloses herself in a shell of earth that no bugs can penetrate without her knowledge and subsequent squishing. Said shell will not interfere with her sense. From within the shell Toph can attack Shino. Unless Shino can penetrate a solid earth shell, Toph can win this



> Even after he landed she had no idea until he said something.



Uh, no.  He landed, said nothing, then she quickly turned around and talked to him.  Watch the episode again.




> It was because she couldn't read it based on his footwork, much like how she won't be able to read most of the Narutoverse attacks.



Whoa, whoa, how did we get from "unable to predict an attack never encountered before" to "can't read an attack based on footwork"?  You'll have to explain the connection there.





> It's the same page...same page



Gah.  I fail at making sense of mangas.



> The Anbu did it = proof.



And yet, they didn't name it as technique or whatever.  It could have been a simple mistake on Kishi's part.



> Neither did one handed seals.



Different.  That was done by a major character, and was pointed out.



> This is a requirement how? Why would someone have to say it out loud before you accept it?



To prove it's not a mistake.



> How exactly is it messed up?



Unless you can suggest a way for people normally to change their direction midair, then Kishi screwed up.



> What more proof than the fact that they've been "energy bending" their entire lives opposed to Ozai who didn't even know of its existence could you possibly want?



Feat please.



> That was my entire point. Ninja's have feats, turtle has no feats. Ninja's win by default.



You still decline to name feats for the ninjas.

Yes, going by OBD rules the ninjas win.  But let's be real here.  In all likelihood, the Lion Turtle is far more powerful than any little ninja.  I have no way to prove it, which is why I said ignore the Lion Turtle.



> To energy bend you have to bend a persons energy, right?
> In other words, your control over their energy has to override theirs, right?
> So you have to be better at controlling their energy, than they are at controlling it, right?
> So the better a person is at controlling his own energy, the harder it is for someone else to forcefully bend it to their will, right?
> Naruto ninja's have mastered their energy to the point where they can create physical things out of thin air, don't you think it's at least a little bit absurd to suggest someone like Aang has better control over their chakra than they do?



Control of energy outside the body, not within.  I could also say that firebenders have mastered their energy to the point where they can create fire out of thin air.  So Ozai's not so inexperienced after all!



> Bending existing elements vs making elements (and a lot more) out of thin air with energy?
> No, it's not the same...at all.



Firebenders make fire out of thin air.

So ninja can make the elements.  From there on, it's much the same.  Except benders have greater control.




> And that's more logical than having one of them win?
> 
> Alright, lets say the turtle tries to energy bend an avatar, what would happen?



An Avatar, because the Lion Turtle has no feats 



> Yes, yes they do.



Name them, then.


----------



## Stan Lee (Jan 20, 2009)

Holy Shit! This topic is still going,wtf?


----------



## Lord Stark (Jan 20, 2009)

Here is another thing too consider, Shinobi aren't the only soldiers in Naruto, there are normal people who don't use jutsu, in the universe.  Also Shinobi are excellent assassins, why not assassinate the leaders and let the Avatarverse destroy themselves


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 20, 2009)

Word of God about the energy bending.

One bend's the other one's spirit's energy away. One strength and power at energy bending came not from just proeficency at it, but mostly from the ability to keep one's spirit pure. The struggle with Ozai was PIS. So as long as the Spirit encarnate of the Planet earth is > a ninja, energy bending works fine.


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 20, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> The fact that they appear out of nothing and dissolve into water, sand, shadow, etc., does.



Again, that's when the technique gets dispelled.
Before that, they're physical, thinking, talking, breathing, living bodies.
They're perfect clones. Nothing to suggest they're different on the inside.
You're just making things up.



> Not all stupidity.  Just CIS.  Not AIS (That's Author Induced Stupidity).



They scream out their attacks even though it isn't a requirement, and it puts them at a disadvantage. It's CIS.



> Allow me to restate what I said in an old Toph vs. Shino thread.
> 
> Way for Toph to win- She encloses herself in a shell of earth that no bugs can penetrate without her knowledge and subsequent squishing. Said shell will not interfere with her sense. From within the shell Toph can attack Shino. Unless Shino can penetrate a solid earth shell, Toph can win this



That would require her to recognize the bugs as a threat.



> Uh, no.  He landed, said nothing, then she quickly turned around and talked to him.  Watch the episode again.



I can't rewatch the episode right now, but I'm pretty sure that he landed behind her and her expression didn't change until he said something along the lines of "I'm not here to fight" and then she  turned around and said "there you are!". Before he said that she was clueless.



> Whoa, whoa, how did we get from "unable to predict an attack never encountered before" to "can't read an attack based on footwork"?  You'll have to explain the connection there.



The way her sensing works is by reading body movement and predicting attacks that way, seeing as your feet are usually the only parts of your body touching the ground, I assume that's what she's reading (most of the time). So if movement can't be used to logically predict an attack, she can't read it.



> And yet, they didn't name it as technique or whatever.  *It could have been* a simple mistake on Kishi's part.



In other words, you're just making up an excuse.



> To prove it's not a mistake.



I don't need to prove it's not a mistake. Just that it happened.
If you don't want to accept it it's up to you to prove it invalid.



> Unless you can suggest a way for people normally to change their direction midair, then Kishi screwed up.



Normally? We're talking about people walking on walls & water here. It's not a far stretch. And seeing as it happened, it's not a stretch at all.

As for how, they did it with chakra.



> Feat please.



The entire manga.



> You still decline to name feats for the ninjas.



Dude, we're talking about people bending their energy into physical forms and using it to enhance their abilities, what more could you possibly want?
What has Avatar ever done in terms of energy bending to put them on that level?



> Yes, going by OBD rules the ninjas win.  But let's be real here.  In all likelihood, the Lion Turtle is far more powerful than any little ninja.  I have no way to prove it, which is why I said ignore the Lion Turtle.



Luckily this is the OBD.



> Control of energy outside the body, not within.  I could also say that firebenders have mastered their energy to the point where they can create fire out of thin air.  So Ozai's not so inexperienced after all!



All their energy comes from within, they simply have so much control over it they can even control it outside of their own body. SM is the only form that uses energy that doesn't come from within.

If I remember correctly, you're the one that pointed out they use heat, not their own energy. No heat, no fire bending. 

So no, Ozai has no experience at all and ninjas have loads.



> Firebenders make fire out of thin air.



They use heat.



> So ninja can make the elements.  From there on, it's much the same.  Except benders have greater control.



We were talking about energy (the way the attack is formed), not the actual attack.



> Name them, then.



I'm not going to keep repeating myself.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

> Lion turtle - sucks



As does Sage Mode.



> Dragons - suck



As does every summon.



> Blood benders - just two of em



Katara: Hey Avatar dudes(and chicks) and Ocean Spirit and various other master level waterbenders, there's water in blood. Bend it.



> Koh - sucks



As do the Failchihas.



> Preptime - so?



Katara: Hey Avatar dudes(and chicks) and Ocean Spirit and various other master level waterbenders, there's water in blood. Bend it. 




> Here is another thing too consider, Shinobi aren't the only soldiers in Naruto, there are normal people who don't use jutsu, in the universe.



Benders aren't the only soldiers in Avatar, there are normal people who don't use bending, in the universe, and with the Fire Nation's technology they cockstomp narutoverse normal soldiers.



> Also Shinobi are excellent assassins, why not assassinate the leaders and let the Avatarverse destroy themselves



A: I can't think of a single occasion where Naruto ninjas have actually performed an assassination.
B: What, they are going to assassinate every Avatar? Or the Ocean Spirit? Who are they going to assassinate that will cause the entire Avatarverse to fall into disarray.


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> As does Sage Mode.



lol



> As does every summon.



lol




> Katara: Hey Avatar dudes(and chicks) and Ocean Spirit and various other master level waterbenders, there's water in blood. Bend it.



Then every single Ninja gets Sage mode, a summon contract, Akimichi soldier pills, etc.



> As do the Failchihas.



lol



> Katara: Hey Avatar dudes(and chicks) and Ocean Spirit and various other master level waterbenders, there's water in blood. Bend it.



Then every single Ninja gets Sage mode, a summon contract, Akimichi soldier pills, etc. 

It doesn't work that way.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

> Then every single Ninja gets Sage mode, a summon contract, Akimichi soldier pills, etc.



Then every Avatar character gets true omnipotence.

Avatars and the Ocean Spirit getting bloodbending is not in any way the same thing as every ninja getting all that shit. 

I know you're desperate to give Narutoverse any possible advantage so they can actually have a chance at winning, but that's just ridiculous.

In other news my computer is a slow piece of shit. Just thought you should know that.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 20, 2009)

Nihonjin said:


> lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"lol" - Great arguments those were, Niho, simply can't be  beat. 

Bloodbending is quite easy to learn, as Katara showed, so it's believable that she can teach it to masters on a higher level than herself.  Some fodder ninja learn to use sage mode? 

You really aren't doing your side any favors right now.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 20, 2009)

Id said:


> Only Neither Parallax or Ion have the feat to claim they destroyed the universe under their own power.
> 
> ?Energy anomalies, residue from the crisis when we all fought the Anti-Monitor. I managed to absorb some of that energy and eventually made my way to the end of time.
> 
> ...



Da fuck? Wrong thread, methinks.


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 20, 2009)

Disorderly Conduct said:


> "lol" - Great arguments those were, Niho, simply can't be  beat.



Yeah, I know. Took me quite a while to come up with it.

On a serious note, The Lion-turtle, Koh & the dragons have absolutely no feats. So I'm not going to bother giving a proper argument against them other than "They suck" and "lol".



> Some fodder ninja learn to use sage mode?



Fodder? Probably not, but people like Kakashi, Tsunade, Oro, Pein, Sakura, and all the other named characters, yes. Which is my entire point, where do you draw the line?



> You really aren't doing your side any favors right now.



Too bad for my side.


----------



## kanoha*yellow*flash (Jan 20, 2009)

ahh this is so funny this match is way one sided to think that anyone would even thing the avatar people would win is reatrded for real naruto rules 
KYUUBA KILLS
ITACHI SLAUGHTERS
PEIN DESTROYS
JIRIYA OWNS 
NARUTO SAGE PAWNS


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

We've been over all them things already. Ain't nothin'.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jan 20, 2009)

Honestly, Uchiha Madara solos this.  No one can harm him, the Kyuubi is unbeatable unless someone in the Avatarverse can seal it.  The Shinobi can stand back and defend their villages whilst Kyuubi goes in and slowly decimates the Avatarverse.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

You say Kyuubi as if Naruto were ever going to use it. Which he specifically won't.

As for Madara, he's nothing special. Any one of the thousands of Avatars use bloodbending on him to take him out.

Keep trying, Spanky.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> I would agree with you, except for the fact that the OP said all past Avatars are in this fight.  Meaning the Narutoverse is facing hundreds, if not thousands, of guys on the level of Avatar State Aang.  That would be very difficult for the Narutoverse to overcome.



Not really. They're all pretty Jounin-level. Even Kakashi would take down a few dozen of 'em.



> And Nikushimi: again
> 
> 
> 
> Just how would Lee even beat Avatar State Aang, when he's flying around shooting his rock railgun?  Even if he could, how would he beat _hundreds_ of guys like that?



With his fists. And possibly a shot or two of sake.



> And nordic...  Ozai flies up and burns Kimminaro so that the only thing left is his bones.  GG.



Ozai's D-Rank Katons won't even make Kimimaro flinch. You're talking about the man who got crushed under a fuckin' sand tsunami and laughed it off, then got buried 200m underground and somehow escaped with sheer force of will. He's also fast, Ozai isn't doing shit before Kimimaro impales him @ 300km/h.



I'm serious, this is not even close. Lee removes his weights, rapes the peak humans. Fight over.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> You say Kyuubi as if Naruto were ever going to use it. Which he specifically won't.
> 
> As for Madara, he's nothing special. Any one of the thousands of Avatars use bloodbending on him to take him out.
> 
> Keep trying, Spanky.



You misunderstand, this thread says the Narutoverse, meaning including the Kyuubi unsealed.  I see no restrictions either.  Madara can control the flow of time and space, they cannot bloodbend him.
And the Madara can control the Kyuubi.  
I repeat, Madara solos.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

> Ozai's fire, which is not useless like Katons are,  kill the shit out of Kimimaro





> Lee removes his weights and tries to rape the peak humans only to find himself being sent to the planet's core where he burns a horribly agonizing death courtesy of Earthbending.



Totally agree.



> You misunderstand, this thread says the Narutoverse, meaning including the Kyuubi unsealed.



You got proof?




> Madara can control the flow of time and space



No he can't.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Totally agree.



Normal human reaction speed is a bitch, dawg.

Lee kicks in about a few hundred Avatar sternums before they even notice he's moved. Lol.

And, I like how sucking Kimimaro underground suddenly beats him. Not like he could escape or anything, amirite?


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

> Normal human reaction speed is a bitch, dawg.



Yeah. Good thing for the Avatarverse that Lee has to take the time to take off his weights before he utterly speedblitzes everyone in the omniverse in .00000000001 yoctoseconds flat.



> And, I like how sucking Kimimaro underground suddenly beats him.



Who said anything about sucking Kimimaro under the ground?


----------



## Lord Stark (Jan 20, 2009)

> You got proof?


Is Kyuubi a part of the Narutoverse? Yes he is.  Also, the guy who made the thread is banned so I can't really ask him can I





> No he can't.


here
here
Read yes he can, stop being a moron, you and I both know this
Also with the Sharigan, Madara can accurately predict all the moves of your precious benders.  And the entire Uchiha clan can easily see through all of it, and even copy it
The Narutoverse still takes this.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Yeah. Good thing for the Avatarverse that Lee has to take the time to take off his weights before he utterly speedblitzes everyone in the omniverse in .00000000001 yoctoseconds flat.



Even his unweighted speed is enough to blitz them, easily. Taking off the weights won't be much of a challenge at all.

Besides, if that's you're best argument, "they can attack Lee while he's taking off his weights", then this thread is as good as over.



> Who said anything about sucking Kimimaro under the ground?



Someone *cough* mentioned using Earthbending to pull Kimimaro underground to the planet's core or some absurd shit. Not like Sabaku-no-motherfucking-Gaara tried it and it basically failed. Granted he didn't try to pull him all the way to the damn *core*, but he was still using his chakra augmented "lol demon" sand, and that apparently wasn't enough to stop Kimimaro.



EDIT: BTW, I like how in attempting to edit my quote you basically admitted that the Avatar characters are mere peak humans. Lee solos effortlessly.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

> Is Kyuubi a part of the Narutoverse? Yes he is.




And he's sealed inside Naruto. So.....I'm right and you're wrong. ^_^



> here
> here



That in no way proves he can control the flow of space and time.



> Also with the Sharigan, Madara can accurately predict all the moves of your precious benders.



He can predict movements all he likes, what he can't predict is having his blood bent and having his head forcibly inserted into his ass(well, more so than it already is).



> And the entire Uchiha clan can easily see through all of it, and even copy it



Before or after they are all burned to death by any half-way decent Firebender?



> Even his unweighted speed is enough to blitz them, easily. Taking off the weights won't be much of a challenge at all.



Right. Ok. So he's going to speedblitz thousands of people is he?




> Besides, if that's you're best argument, "they can attack Lee while he's taking off his weights", then this thread is as good as over.



This thread was as good as over the second someone said "Avatarverse rapes".

People like you continue beyond all reason to insist that Narutoverse has a chance. I'm just doing this because I'm bored.



> Someone *cough* mentioned using Earthbending to pull Kimimaro underground to the planet's core or some absurd shit.



Dunno, who that was but it wasn't me.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> He can predict movements all he likes, what he can't predict is having his blood bent and having his head forcibly inserted into his ass(well, more so than it already is).





The Uchiha Clan isn't needed. Hyuuga Koh solos.



> Before or after they are all burned to death by any half-way decent Firebender?



Funny you should mention this. Even Academy Sasuke has better fire feats than most Firebenders.

Shit, Itachi or Sasuke out-Katon Ozai easily. Uchiha is like the Firebending clan of the Narutoverse (or the Plotbending one, it doesn't matter because either way they rape this).


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Right. Ok. So he's going to speedblitz thousands of people is he?



Yes.



> This thread was as good as over the second someone said "Avatarverse rapes".
> 
> People like you continue beyond all reason to insist that Narutoverse has a chance. I'm just doing this because I'm bored.



Peak humans with some C-Rank AoE techniques don't stand a chance against the Narutoverse. It's been agreed that the Kenshinverse can't handle the Narutoverse, and I would easily place them above the Avatarverse anyday.



> Dunno, who that was but it wasn't me.



You edited my quote trying to be funny, dawg. It was you.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

> The Uchiha Clan isn't needed. Hyuuga Koh solos.



And he's going to do this while having his head forcibly inserted into his ass is he?



> Funny you should mention this. Even Academy Sasuke has better fire feats than most Firebenders.



And barring Sasuke and Itachi, how many of the Uchiha clan have any fire feats at all? One? Only one I can think of is their father who demonstrated one jutsu in a flashback. Nothing special.



> Shit, Itachi or Sasuke out-Katon Ozai easily.



Likely. Good thing Ozai uses fire that's actually dangeorus and not Katons. ^_^



> Yes.



Congrats, you're an idiot. Block.



> Peak humans with some C-Rank AoE techniques don't stand a chance against the Narutoverse.



Maybe not, but the Avatarverse does.



> It's been agreed that the Kenshinverse can't handle the Narutoverse, and I would easily place them above the Avatarverse anyday.



Yes, well, you're a confirmed idiot so I really wont take your personal ratings at face value.



> You edited my quote trying to be funny, dawg. It was you.



I edited your quote but I never said anything about dragging kimimaro to the planet's core


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> And he's going to do this while having his head forcibly inserted into his ass is he?



No, he's going to do this with Jyuuken, one-shotting Avatars left and right.



> And barring Sasuke and Itachi, how many of the Uchiha clan have any fire feats at all? One? Only one I can think of is their father who demonstrated one jutsu in a flashback. Nothing special.



All Uchiha must master Katon: Goukakyuu no Jutsu as a rite of passage. Stated.



> Likely. Good thing Ozai uses fire that's actually dangeorus and not Katons. ^_^



Dangerous enough to not burn Aang despite touching him. 



> Congrats, you're an idiot. Block.



Congrats, you're Chuunin-level just like the Avatarverse, as proof of that you're running away. 



> Maybe not, but the Avatarverse does.



That's exactly what the Avatarverse is, so in fact, Lee solos.



> Yes, well, you're a confirmed idiot so I really wont take your personal ratings at face value.



I'd say something witty back to you, but given that this is your only recourse I will allow it for amusement purposes.



> I edited your quote but I never said anything about dragging kimimaro to the planet's core



"Lee removes his weights and tries to rape the peak humans only to find himself *being sent to the planet's core where he burns a horribly agonizing death courtesy of Earthbending*. "

Your memory is as Chuunin-level as your debating AND the Avatarverse. 

EDIT: It's about Lee, not Kimimaro, but whatever. The point remains, that tactic ain't working.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

> "*Lee* removes his weights and tries to rape the peak humans only to find himself being sent to the planet's core where he burns a horribly agonizing death courtesy of Earthbending. "
> 
> Your memory is as Chuunin-level as your debating AND the Avatarverse.



I've taken the liberty of viewing your post and defending myself on this even after blocking you.

I've also pointed out the only name given in that quote. Note how it isn't Kimimaro.

You're even more of an idiot than I thought you were.

Oh and this too



> All Uchiha must master Katon: Goukakyuu no Jutsu as a rite of passage. Stated



Character statements mean shit. Proof is in the pudding.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> I've taken the liberty of viewing your post and defending myself on this even after blocking you.
> 
> I've also pointed out the only name given in that quote. Note how it isn't Kimimaro.
> 
> Oh and this too



Same thing. Point is, that tactic won't work. 

But I like how this is all it takes to get you to block someone.



> Character statements mean shit. Proof is in the pudding.



It's a canon statement, therefore it is a fact.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

Character statements mean shit. Proof is in the pudding.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Character statements mean shit. Proof is in the pudding.



Character statements ARE proof. They ARE the pudding. The only one who says otherwise is you. Kishimoto's work>your opinion. Unless you can show me that that statement was somehow incorrect, the point stands. All Uchiha must master that Jutsu.


----------



## thok422 (Jan 20, 2009)

im just gonna sum this up,

Naruto PWNS avatar

they have flying bison, we have giant all crushing chakra beasts

they have a bald kid, we have a all crushing sage (as of naruto 432)

they have fire, water, air, and earth, and sokka we have RASENGAN

NARUTO WINS!!!!!


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

Since the Narutoverse hasn't got anyone to seriously defend it, that leaves the Avatarverse with a technical victory.

Mind you, this thread shoulda ended 24 pages ago with the Avatarverse on top, but alas, fanboys will be fanboys.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> And he's sealed inside Naruto. So.....I'm right and you're wrong. ^_^


You're point? This is a hypothetical situation.  That sort of logic was thrown out of the window the moment the thread was made.  We shouldn't count the dead avatars then either, if so then Naruto pwns even harder, and please explain how they will counter the other 8 Bijuu.




> That in no way proves he can control the flow of space and time.


Its specifically stated to be a Space Time Ninjutsu.  What the hell do you think that is?  He can take his entire body out of the flow of space and time, and re-form it



> He can predict movements all he likes, what he can't predict is having his blood bent and having his head forcibly inserted into his ass(well, more so than it already is).


Really? And tell me how will they bend something that doesn't exist.


Before or after they are all burned to death by any half-way decent Firebender?





> Right. Ok. So he's going to speedblitz thousands of people is he?


Lets see, give me some speed feats of anyone in the Avatarverse.  Yondaime obliterated an army of 100 _Shinobi_.  Blitzing some fodder is no big deal. 





> This thread was as good as over the second someone said "Narutoverse rapes".


 fixed



> People like you continue beyond all reason to insist that Avatarverse has a chance. I'm just doing this because I'm bored.


I agree, why do we continue this if we're in agreement


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Since the Narutoverse hasn't got anyone to seriously defend it, that leaves the Avatarverse with a technical victory.
> 
> Mind you, this thread shoulda ended 24 pages ago with the Avatarverse on top, but alas, fanboys will be fanboys.



Cop-out.

I pretty much destroyed you already and you're incapable of defending your own argument anymore. You lost. The Avatarverse lost. It's over Lee won.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jan 20, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> Cop-out.
> 
> I pretty much destroyed you already and you're incapable of defending your own argument anymore. You lost. The Avatarverse lost. It's over Lee won.



 pwnd!


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

> We shouldn't count the dead avatars then either, if so then Naruto pwns even harder, and please explain how they will counter the other 8 Bijuu



And we also don't count dead Naruto characters, which deprives the Narutoverse of like half of its named characters and most of its high tiers.

The 8 Bijuus drown in the ocean courtesy of the Ocean Spirit.



> Lets see, give me some speed feats of anyone in the Avatarverse. Yondaime obliterated an army of 100 Shinobi. Blitzing some fodder is no big deal.


'

Irrelevant.
A; Yondaime is dead.
B; No one was as fast as him. ^_^



> Really? And tell me how will they bend something that doesn't exist.



They can't. Good thing Madara does exist(within the hypothetical bounds of the fight)




> Its specifically stated to be a Space Time Ninjutsu. What the hell do you think that is? He can take his entire body out of the flow of space and time, and re-form it



We were just talking about this. Character statements. Shit. Etc.

Ignoring that, just because it is a space/time jutsu does not mean he controls the flow of space and time.



> You pretty much destroyed me already, oh great Ono, such that I'm incapable of defending my own arguments anymore. I've lost. The Narutoverse lost. It's over you've won Ono, you sexy sexy beast.



Why thank you, but you're not my type.


----------



## thok422 (Jan 20, 2009)

their right, lets put it this way, why is avatar over and naruto still going as the #1 manga ever?


PWNED!


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

Cute, but no.


----------



## thok422 (Jan 20, 2009)

yes cute, and yes naruto pwns, get over it 





yes i like this smiley!


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

Yes, thok, the Avatarverse truly is superior to Narutoverse.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> And we also don't count dead Naruto characters, which deprives the Narutoverse of like half of its named characters and most of its high tiers.


Did you create this thread.  Or are you just trying your hardest too deprive the Narutoverse of everything.  THE NARUTO UNIVERSE IS EVERYTHING THUS FAR.  Also you're counting dead avatars so please STFU


> The 8 Bijuus drown in the ocean courtesy of the Ocean Spirit.


So let me get this straight, 
Irrelevant.


> A; Yondaime is dead.
> B; No one was as fast as him. ^_^


Uchiha Madara is.  Its specifically stated that his space/time(speed) jutsu is more advanced than Yondaime. 
Link removed



> They can't. Good thing Madara does exist(within the hypothetical bounds of the fight)


You're an idiot.  A universe means everything shown thus far.  Including dead characters.  Never in the OP does it state that dead characters are restricted.  So don't assume anything or bend the thread to your will because its BS.





> We were just talking about this. Character statements. Shit. Etc.


And you lost.  How do Character statements=shit.  They are written by the author to get across a point.  They serve as the voice of Kishimoto.


> Ignoring that, just because it is a space/time jutsu does not mean he controls the flow of space and time.


Around his body it does, and to the point of avoiding attacks it does.
You're arguing a thread that does not exist.  their are NO restrictions.  You didn't make the thread, you don't make the rules.  Please you have provided no evidence for your dubious claims and yet you claim victory.  You sir are a grade-A Troll.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Why thank you, but you're not my type.



Yeah, pretty much what I expected. You're all Avatar wank and no substance. I have yet to see a single piece of evidence from you, even by a statement of yours, that hints at the Avatarverse even standing a chance.

Basically, until you can tell me how they will suddenly be able to react to Lee's speed, they lose, and so do you. Now kindly get out of my thread and go back to the Joke Battledome where this thread might actually have a chance of going the way you want it to.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

> THE NARUTO UNIVERSE IS EVERYTHING THUS FAR.


As is the Avatar universe. You count the dead shinobi, you count the dead Avatars. You don't count the Avatars you don't count the dead shinobi. That's how it works, mon cheri.



> Uchiha Madara is. Its specifically stated that his space/time(speed) jutsu is more advanced than Yondaime.



There's those character statements again.



> I, Mizukage Hitsugaya, am an idiot.





> I, Mizukage Hitsugaya, am a grade-A Troll.



You should be nicer to yourself.



> And you lost.



No, I just stopped trying, what with my opponent being an idiot, there wasn't much point in going on.



> How do Character statements=shit. They are written by the author to get across a point. They serve as the voice of Kishimoto



So Madara is lightspeed? Haku is light speed? Amaterasu is hot as the sun? Character statements = shit.




> You're arguing a thread that does not exist.



No, I'm pretty sure this thread does exist.



> their are NO restrictions.



Well, in that case, Aang gets true omnipotence courtesy of there being no resitriction on his powers and solos. ^_^ 



> Please you have provided no evidence for your dubious claims and yet you claim victory



When have I claimed victory? And what dubious claims?


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> So Madara is lightspeed? Haku is light speed? Amaterasu is hot as the sun? Character statements = shit.



The first is a hyperbole, the second and third are databook statements not character statements and also hyperboles. It's nice that instead of recognizing your own error you jump right to calling the material "shit."


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

In any event, since Mizukage has resorted to namecalling I can only assume he's no longer interested in what I generously refer to as "debating" in this thread. And since there's no one else with a brain to defend the Narutoverse, there's not much point in sticking around.

Toodles.

Nikushimi, I thank you for all your compliments but I'm afraid that they are misplaced. I am not, as you assert, awesometastic. But thank you anyway.


----------



## thok422 (Jan 20, 2009)

Is their even a point to this anymore? We all have our opinions. I'll admit I think zuko is awesome, you two just don't like each other.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> In any event, since Mizukage has resorted to namecalling I can only assume he's no longer interested in what I generously refer to as "debating" in this thread. And since there's no one else with a brain to defend the Narutoverse, there's not much point in sticking around.
> 
> Toodles.
> 
> Nikushimi, I thank you for all your compliments but I'm afraid that they are misplaced. I am not, as you assert, awesometastic. But thank you anyway.



No you're trolling.  No where in the thread has it stated half of the restrictions you've brought upon the thread.  A person who trolls is a troll.  
And by you throwing a tantrum and saying "mommy! they won't play the game my way so I'm leaving!"  This isn't Burger King, you can't have it your way 
In other words. You're conceding defeat.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jan 20, 2009)

> No where in the thread has it stated half of the restrictions you've brought upon the thread.



Which restrictions are these, exactly? Including the dead Avatars because you include the dead Shinobi? Relying on Naruto canon to determine the location of the Kyuubi? Not assuming that Madara can move at the speed of light? 

What are these apparently baseless restrictions you are accusing me of trying to enforce?

Also, a fun bit of something or other, you accusing me of being a troll is itself trolling. So you've got no ground to stand on there.

As for saying "mommy! they won't play the game my way so I'm leaving", I can hardly be blamed for not sticking around so you can falsely accuse me of being a troll and spout a bunch of bullshit about how Madara is the omnipotent god of all things that can never be hit by any attack ever no matter what. 

Ya damn hypocrite.

I give up. Your stupidity is giving me a headache and pursuing this line will only serve to further drive it.


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 20, 2009)

At this point, my main disagreement with Nihonjin is on energybending.  He insists that somehow all ninjas could resist it, but refuses to name a single feat of ninjas controlling energy within their body.  Until he does, I'm not going to bother.



			
				Mizukage Hitsugaya 10  said:
			
		

> Honestly, Uchiha Madara solos this. No one can harm him, the Kyuubi is unbeatable unless someone in the Avatarverse can seal it. The Shinobi can stand back and defend their villages whilst Kyuubi goes in and slowly decimates the Avatarverse.



I'm quite sure bloodbending, Iroh's comet powered fireblast, a mountain, a volcanic eruption, etc., would hurt Madara.  As for Kyuubi, this is the current Narutoverse, so he's sealed in Naruto right now.  Who can only go up to KN4.  Which Avatar State Aang could beat alone.



> You misunderstand, this thread says the Narutoverse, meaning including the Kyuubi unsealed. I see no restrictions either. Madara can control the flow of time and space, they cannot bloodbend him.
> And the Madara can control the Kyuubi.
> I repeat, Madara solos.



The Narutoverse includes Kyuubi, but right now he's sealed inside Naruto.  BTW, Madara commanding the Kyuubi isn't a solo.



			
				Nikushimi said:
			
		

> Not really. They're all pretty Jounin-level. Even Kakashi would take down a few dozen of 'em.



So moving islands and stopping volcanoes is Jounin level?  



> With his fists. And possibly a shot or two of sake.



You'll first have to prove that Lee can punch through the huge rock pillars Aang was smashing through in his fight with Ozai.  And that he could reach Aang at 100+ feet in the air.



> Ozai's D-Rank Katons won't even make Kimimaro flinch. You're talking about the man who got crushed under a fuckin' sand tsunami and laughed it off, then got buried 200m underground and somehow escaped with sheer force of will. He's also fast, Ozai isn't doing shit before Kimimaro impales him @ 300km/h.



So, D-Rank katons burn down whole forests?  I'm starting to wonder what Naruto you are reading.  Also, a feat of resistance against earth attacks does not prove he can resist fire.  And, if Ozai doesn't cut it, then the FN airship fleet probably could.



> Normal human reaction speed is a bitch, dawg.
> 
> Lee kicks in about a few hundred Avatar sternums before they even notice he's moved. Lol.



Speed feat for Lee.  You're making it sound like he's as faster than DBZ characters.



> Funny you should mention this. Even Academy Sasuke has better fire feats than most Firebenders.
> 
> Shit, Itachi or Sasuke out-Katon Ozai easily. Uchiha is like the Firebending clan of the Narutoverse (or the Plotbending one, it doesn't matter because either way they rape this).



Feats of Sasuke and Itachi burning down whole forests, then?



> Dangerous enough to not burn Aang despite touching him.



Aang was using both airbending and firebending defenses, which ninja don't have, and on occasion waterbending and earthbending.  But that wasn't enough.  At one point Aang raised up an earth wall, but Ozai blasts right through it and sends Aang flying.

Ozai's Comet power firebending >>>>>>> katons.  Iroh blasted a hole in the great wall of Ba Sing Se.  Yet this same person feared he would not be able to defeat Ozai.  And, since they're brothers and were raised together, it's pretty safe to say Iroh knows what he was talking about.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> In any event, since Mizukage has resorted to namecalling I can only assume he's no longer interested in what I generously refer to as "debating" in this thread. And since there's no one else with a brain to defend the Narutoverse, there's not much point in sticking around.



You degenerated to being a butthurt Avatarfag and start labelling people as "idiots" before he did anything, dawg. It's pretty much kicking a dead horse at this point, you lost, get over it.



> Toodles.



That's right. Run away, run away. And live. Live with the shame.

Foolish little Chuunin, if you want to refute me, then hate me, detest me. And one day, when you have the same evidence as I do, come before me. 



> Nikushimi, I thank you for all your compliments but I'm afraid that they are misplaced. I am not, as you assert, awesometastic. But thank you anyway.



No problem. Whatever petty illusion tickles your pickle and gets you out of this thread so no one has to put up with you anymore is fine by me. Didn't you block me already, anyway?


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> So moving islands and stopping volcanoes is Jounin level?



You're talking about the absolute best feats these characters have. I could show you Deidara erasing everything in a 10km radius from existence.

Other than that, yes, they're pretty Jounin-level.



> You'll first have to prove that Lee can punch through the huge rock pillars Aang was smashing through in his fight with Ozai.  And that he could reach Aang at 100+ feet in the air.



Lee uproots gigantic tree roots with his bare hand and runs around at imperceptible speeds with multiple tons strapped to his legs, no rock pillars are withstanding his attacks. I also like, though, how Aang magically starts the fight completely out of reach. It's funny when people have such confidence that their characters would win, yet the only strategy they have is to keep them as far away from the opposition's reach as possible. So yes, if Aang starts the fight 100+ feet in the air and ambushes Lee who isn't expecting it and snipes him with an attack of molten lava from long-range, then yes, he can win. Other than that, no. Konoha Senpuu, GG Aang.



> So, D-Rank katons burn down whole forests?  I'm starting to wonder what Naruto you are reading.  Also, a feat of resistance against earth attacks does not prove he can resist fire.  And, if Ozai doesn't cut it, then the FN airship fleet probably could.



D-Rank was just me being a prick, I know they're stronger than that. As for Kimimaro, if he can survive getting crushed by hundreds of tons and has bones stronger than steel, then he can survive a little fire. Hell, Sasuke with the Juin took a Goukakyuu to the wing straight from Itachi and was fine. Itachi had his bare arm singed by Katon: Gouryuuka no Jutsu and it was just a little burned. Kimimaro is one of the more durable characters in the Narutoverse. And fast too.

But it's nice that you have to bring in the entire Fire Nation airship fleet to bring just him down. Sorta puts into perspective how badly the Narutoverse rapes this fight.



> Speed feat for Lee.  You're making it sound like he's as faster than DBZ characters.



No, but faster than peak humans, definitely. Let me put it this way: Sasuke was moving at blurring speeds even before the tree-climbing exercise. After that, he blitzed Zabuza's Mizu Bunshins in an instant. This is the same Sasuke who was later creamed at speeds he couldn't react to by *weighted* Lee. Gaara tanked every one of Lee's hits with his sand defense until Lee removed his weights, then all of a sudden it became a blitzfest. Suddenly Gaara, who previously had never even sustained a scratch in battle, was getting knocked around like a frightened schoolchild at a monastery.

Lee blitzes the shit out of any Avatarverse character, that much is a fact.



> Feats of Sasuke and Itachi burning down whole forests, then?



They fought on a stone complex, Itachi burned a forest down solo with Amaterasu, though, which was unintentional.



> Aang was using both airbending and firebending defenses, which ninja don't have, and on occasion waterbending and earthbending.  But that wasn't enough.  At one point Aang raised up an earth wall, but Ozai blasts right through it and sends Aang flying.



Which Earth wall are we talking here? The ball? The random slab? Neither were that thick. Shouten Itachi's Goukakyuu scarred a path through the ground and left a crater where it impacted. Against Sasuke, he and his brother blasted through solid stone several times, actually, like it was nothing.



> Ozai's Comet power firebending >>>>>>> katons.  Iroh blasted a hole in the great wall of Ba Sing Se.  Yet this same person feared he would not be able to defeat Ozai.  And, since they're brothers and were raised together, it's pretty safe to say Iroh knows what he was talking about.



Ozai could just be a better fighter. You never know.

Either way, they get blitzed before they can raise a hand in defense, so it's a nonissue.


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 20, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> You're talking about the absolute best feats these characters have. I could show you Deidara erasing everything in a 10km radius from existence.
> 
> Other than that, yes, they're pretty Jounin-level.



And the best feats make them way above Jounin level.  



> Lee uproots gigantic tree roots with his bare hand and runs around at imperceptible speeds with multiple tons strapped to his legs, no rock pillars are withstanding his attacks. I also like, though, how Aang magically starts the fight completely out of reach. It's funny when people have such confidence that their characters would win, yet the only strategy they have is to keep them as far away from the opposition's reach as possible. So yes, if Aang starts the fight 100+ feet in the air and ambushes Lee who isn't expecting it and snipes him with an attack of molten lava from long-range, then yes, he can win. Other than that, no. Konoha Senpuu, GG Aang.



Tree root =/= rock pillar.  Moving tree root =/= smashing rock pillar.



> D-Rank was just me being a prick, I know they're stronger than that. As for Kimimaro, if he can survive getting crushed by hundreds of tons and has bones stronger than steel, then he can survive a little fire. Hell, Sasuke with the Juin took a Goukakyuu to the wing straight from Itachi and was fine. Itachi had his bare arm singed by Katon: Gouryuuka no Jutsu and it was just a little burned. Kimimaro is one of the more durable characters in the Narutoverse. And fast too.
> 
> But it's nice that you have to bring in the entire Fire Nation airship fleet to bring just him down. Sorta puts into perspective how badly the Narutoverse rapes this fight.



Wow, Ono's not even here and insults are flying.  From yourself, to yourself.

I'll say it again- earth resistance feat =/= fire resistance feat.  

And no, I did not say the fleet was needed.  I still think one of Ozai's attacks burn up Kimminaro.  The fleet would just be overkill.



> No, but faster than peak humans, definitely. Let me put it this way: Sasuke was moving at blurring speeds even before the tree-climbing exercise. After that, he blitzed Zabuza's Mizu Bunshins in an instant. This is the same Sasuke who was later creamed at speeds he couldn't react to by *weighted* Lee. Gaara tanked every one of Lee's hits with his sand defense until Lee removed his weights, then all of a sudden it became a blitzfest. Suddenly Gaara, who previously had never even sustained a scratch in battle, was getting knocked around like a frightened schoolchild at a monastery.
> 
> Lee blitzes the shit out of any Avatarverse character, that much is a fact.



Lee is faster than any Avatar character, yes.  That does not mean he can solo, nor take the hundreds of Avatars down before some of them react and drop a mountain.



> They fought on a stone complex, Itachi burned a forest down solo with Amaterasu, though, which was unintentional.



Scan, please.  How can a forest be on a stone complex?



> Which Earth wall are we talking here? The ball? The random slab? Neither were that thick. Shouten Itachi's Goukakyuu scarred a path through the ground and left a crater where it impacted. Against Sasuke, he and his brother blasted through solid stone several times, actually, like it was nothing.



The random slab.  No, it wasn't too thick, but it was still solid.  Proves that Ozai's fire can do explosive damage.  Also, that indicates something about Aang's earth shell.  Ozai blasted the earth wall in one shot, but blasted the earth shell ten or so times before charging a blast and using it point-blank.  Aang must have be reinforcing the shell with bending.



> Ozai could just be a better fighter. You never know.
> 
> Either way, they get blitzed before they can raise a hand in defense, so it's a nonissue.



Lee is faster than a lightning bolt, now?


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> And the best feats make them way above Jounin level.



Which is still pretty meaningless.



> Tree root =/= rock pillar.  Moving tree root =/= smashing rock pillar.



He uprooted it. Lol. That's entirely different from moving it. You should try uprooting even a small tree root sometime, see how difficult it is. And Lee casually did this with one hand, to one that was larger than himself.



> Wow, Ono's not even here and insults are flying.  From yourself, to yourself.
> 
> I'll say it again- earth resistance feat =/= fire resistance feat.
> 
> And no, I did not say the fleet was needed.  I still think one of Ozai's attacks burn up Kimminaro.  The fleet would just be overkill.



If a character can resist getting crushed by tons of material, what makes you think fire will do anything? Especially when characters with less durability HAVE withstood fire.



> Lee is faster than any Avatar character, yes.  That does not mean he can solo, nor take the hundreds of Avatars down before some of them react and drop a mountain.



Unless they're willing to drop mountains on dozens of their own men as Lee is blitzing them, then yes, he takes them out easily.



> Scan, please.  How can a forest be on a stone complex?



Around a stone complex.











> The random slab.  No, it wasn't too thick, but it was still solid.  Proves that Ozai's fire can do explosive damage.  Also, that indicates something about Aang's earth shell.  Ozai blasted the earth wall in one shot, but blasted the earth shell ten or so times before charging a blast and using it point-blank.  Aang must have be reinforcing the shell with bending.



That much is obvious. But just blasting through stone is nothing. There are characters who can do that with physical blows, nevermind some of the stronger Katons.



> Lee is faster than a lightning bolt, now?



No, but show me someone in the Avatarverse who is and then maybe we'll have something to talk about.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jan 20, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Which restrictions are these, exactly? Including the dead Avatars because you include the dead Shinobi? Relying on Naruto canon to determine the location of the Kyuubi? Not assuming that Madara can move at the speed of light?


Madara does not just walk, he teleports.  In otherwords, if he wanted too hypothetically in an instant he could put himself on the moon.  The thread says Avatarverse vs. Narutoverse.  NEVER does it say the current Narutoverse vs. the Current Avatarverse.  In otherwords everything that has been seen/mentioned thus far in Naruto vs. Everything seen thus far in Avatar.  Who wins? Naruto!



> What are these apparently baseless restrictions you are accusing me of trying to enforce?


They are.  That's like me saying Star Wars Universe vs. Star Trek Universe and the Halo Universe and saying, well there's no Yoda, Palpatine, or any Jedi, because they're all dead in the Legacy Era.  You know damned well what the thread means, but you're trying your hardest to make it so Avatar wins.


> Also, a fun bit of something or other, you accusing me of being a troll is itself trolling. So you've got no ground to stand on there.


Why? Its definitely on topic.  I am stating you are making baseless, and groundless arguments.  Not once have you said in Episode_____ the Avatars displayed _______
Our side has provided scans, as evidence, you have not.  Because you have no evidence, you just look at Naruto casually, and watch Avatar with much intent, which I have no problem with, but don't come and start making baseless assumptions about the Narutoverse.


> As for saying "mommy! they won't play the game my way so I'm leaving", I can hardly be blamed for not sticking around so you can falsely accuse me of being a troll and spout a bunch of bullshit about how Madara is the omnipotent god of all things that can never be hit by any attack ever no matter what.


Well lets see, Madara has escaped a film of Chakra sucking, human devouring bugs, a Rasengan, a lightning enhanced blade, and TOYED with the Konoha 12 with ease.  He can easily predict, and defend against anything the Avatar verse can throw at him.  Also with the Kyuubi he can wipe out any city with ease (not even mentioning the other eight bijuus he can control).


> Ya damn hypocrite.


Care to back up your claims you're the one 



> I give up. Your stupidity is giving me a headache and pursuing this line will only serve to further drive it.


Oh right, your arrogant nature, and super-fanboyism makes it impossible for you to comprehend Avatar loosing to Naruto, what's next, do you think that Avatar can beat Bleach, or God forbid DBZ as well.  Avatar characters do not possess power on the scale of a number of Anime/Manga.  This is a world where God-like speed isn't a big deal, and their are kids at the age of 12 stronger than KAKASHI! 
Naruto>Avatar, until you give me evidence


----------



## kanoha*yellow*flash (Jan 20, 2009)

-bigHAHAHA avatar of all the things to compare with you guys pick avatr and some of you actualy think they would winn 

avatar dont have the physical or mental abilities power wise one fuuton shuriken will end everything her how it goes AFTER TIME SKIP

ITACHI= SLAUGHTERS( THATS IF THERE ARE NO HOT CHICKS)
JIRAIYA=DESTROYS
KAKASHI= ? i CANT SAY MUCH BUT YOU GET THE POINT
SAKUAR= BLINDS EVRYONE WITH HER FORE HEAD
INO= DOES SOME WEIRD DTRIPER DANCE THERE GOES PRINCE ZUKO
ROCK= HES OUT OF TEH MATCH ( STALKING GUY)
NEJI=  PRE-OCUPIDE( USING BYKUGAN TO LOOK THROW GIRLS CLOTHING) THATS MY BOY, GET SOME!!!
TSUNADE= GAMBLING WITH TEH FIRE LORD PROBABLY LOSING
ANBU= WHAT THE F#@K DO THEY DO ANYWAY?

YONDAIME=  THIS IS THE GAME DESIDER USES BODY FLICKER WINNS THE WHOLE THING

SAGE NARUTO= LATE US USUAL 

SASUKE= BLINDED BY SAKURAS FOREHEAD (TOLD YA)

OBITO&ORO= I'D RATHER NOT TALK ABOUT THOSE TO (THERE SO MANY SIGNS OF MOLUSTATION) SERIOUSLY HOW OLD IS KABUTO CONPARED TO ORO THAT S$#T IS NOT RIGHT

THERE IVE RUN OUT OF IDEAS YOU GUYS CAN FINISH THE REST


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 21, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> Which is still pretty meaningless.



Disregarding feats entirely, now?



> He uprooted it. Lol. That's entirely different from moving it. You should try uprooting even a small tree root sometime, see how difficult it is. And Lee casually did this with one hand, to one that was larger than himself.



Not entirely different.  It was still moving, not destroying.  It does nothing to prove Lee could punch through huge rock pillars.



> If a character can resist getting crushed by tons of material, what makes you think fire will do anything? Especially when characters with less durability HAVE withstood fire.



Fire burns normal people.  Kimminaro has yet to show he is other than normal when it comes to fire resistance.  Until then, we just assume he has normal fire resistance.  And other characters resisting doesn't prove anything about Kimminaro.



> Unless they're willing to drop mountains on dozens of their own men as Lee is blitzing them, then yes, he takes them out easily.



Seeing as the Avatars could simply earthbend-tunnel through the mountains (Avatar Roku and King Bumi have been shown to do this), yeah, mountain-dropping actually wouldn't be a problem for them.  Also, even if Lee nailed a few Avatars, eventually the Avatars would raise their omnidirectional air shields.  You can't blitz an omnidirectional shield.



> Around a stone complex.



Here's a fact of nature.  Fire spreads.  Among those scans, I do not see a single image of Itachi actually causing the fire.  I just see the fire after the fact.  As far as I can tell, the fire just spread to that point.

Also, so what if amatesaru is better than comet-powered bending.  All of two, possibly three Naruto characters can use it, one who's dead.  Other than that, firebending completely beats katons.



> That much is obvious. But just blasting through stone is nothing. There are characters who can do that with physical blows, nevermind some of the stronger Katons.



True.  A lot of Naruto characters would get broken knuckles if they tried punching Aang's earth shell.  And no katon is penetrating it.



> No, but show me someone in the Avatarverse who is and then maybe we'll have something to talk about.



In episode 1-12 "The Storm", Iroh reacts to and redirects natural lightning.  Lee ain't blitzing him.

BTW



			
				kanoha*yellow*flash said:
			
		

> INO= DOES SOME WEIRD DTRIPER DANCE THERE GOES GENERAL IROH AND MOST OF HER VERSE EXCEPT SASUKE



Fixed.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 21, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Disregarding feats entirely, now?



No, simply pointing out that the high-end Avatarverse feats pale in comparison to the high-end Narutoverse feats, so it's pointless to take the absolute best they have and try to make a case for the vast majority of them not to get blitzraped instantly.



> Not entirely different.  It was still moving, not destroying.  It does nothing to prove Lee could punch through huge rock pillars.



If you're physically powerful enough to do this:





Chances are, a little bit of stone isn't stopping you. Peak humans break bricks and shit all the time. Lolwut? This guy just nonchalantly shoved his hand into the ground and ripped up a tree root several times bigger than his own body.



> Fire burns normal people.  Kimminaro has yet to show he is other than normal when it comes to fire resistance.  Until then, we just assume he has normal fire resistance.  And other characters resisting doesn't prove anything about Kimminaro.



Higher skin/body durability is universal. Harder objects tend to burn at higher temperatures, unless the chemical composition makes them flammable, which isn't the case for human flesh. So don't try this cop-out, it doesn't work. But because you asked so nicely:





Sasuke's durability has nothing on Kimimaro's. Don't try to argue that he survived because of the Juin, either, because Kimimaro has that too. Not that it matters, since no peak human is getting off any attack before being blitzed.



> Seeing as the Avatars could simply earthbend-tunnel through the mountains (Avatar Roku and King Bumi have been shown to do this), yeah, mountain-dropping actually wouldn't be a problem for them.  Also, even if Lee nailed a few Avatars, eventually the Avatars would raise their omnidirectional air shields.  You can't blitz an omnidirectional shield.



If they're all tunneling through the mountain, then they're not fighting back, and Lee is free to run. An omnidirectional are shield is also really only effective when it's strong enough to stop whatever's attacking it. Lol.



> Here's a fact of nature.  Fire spreads.  Among those scans, I do not see a single image of Itachi actually causing the fire.  I just see the fire after the fact.  As far as I can tell, the fire just spread to that point.



Amaterasu misses the complex:



Two pages later, with no timetranstion, Amaterasu has burned a semicircle-section of forest around the complex: 



Yeah, fire spreads. Duh. Itachi fired an Amaterasu, it missed Sasuke, suddenly a huge chunk of the forest is burning. Even if it's just because the flames spread, that's not really a knock on Itachi's abilities. Though it's doubtful to be the case, as Amaterasu has a slow burning/spreading rate.



> Also, so what if amatesaru is better than comet-powered bending.  All of two, possibly three Naruto characters can use it, one who's dead.  Other than that, firebending completely beats katons.



No, not really. Sasuke's Katon: Gouryuuka no Jutsu helped heat the atmosphere along with Amaterasu (the latter of which did it by itself later on), and Jiraiya's combo Katon with Gamabunta is way better than any firebending feat.

And again, peak humans. Even if they had flamethrowers and Lee had a box of matches, he would shove that box of matches through each and every one of their rectal passages long before they could ever pull the trigger.



> True.  A lot of Naruto characters would get broken knuckles if they tried punching Aang's earth shell.  And no katon is penetrating it.



Lol, broken knuckles:



No Katon is penetrating it? 'Scuse me a sec:






(that's a direct hit to the arm, btw)



That Katon blasted through two layers of solid stone and utterly shattered them as if they weren't even in the way, then continued on into the sky. Aang's stone wall isn't blocking them. Not that he's fast enough to raise it in time anyway.



> In episode 1-12 "The Storm", Iroh reacts to and redirects natural lightning.  Lee ain't blitzing him.



Iroh is not lightning-speed. If you're suggesting he is, you're basically putting him above most Bleach and One Piece characters.

Just because he manipulated natural lightning doesn't mean he is faster than it. Sasuke does the same thing with his Kirin technique and he admits that it's impossible to dodge. I can control where I aim a gun and when I fire it, but am I faster than the bullet? No. It's the same concept.


----------



## Soul (Jan 21, 2009)

The Narutoverse wins
Avatar showed much less haxxed abilities than in Naruto.

I defy someone on the Avatarverse side that can beat Susano'o.

And that is only 1 example...


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 22, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> No, simply pointing out that the high-end Avatarverse feats pale in comparison to the high-end Narutoverse feats, so it's pointless to take the absolute best they have and try to make a case for the vast majority of them not to get blitzraped instantly.



Ok, then.  Show me something from the Narutoverse more impressive than plugging a volcano or moving an island.



> If you're physically powerful enough to do this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"A little bit of stone"?  We're talking about thick rock pillars here.  Pillars Aang smashed through at high speeds without slowing down.  Tree root pulling isn't going to cut it.




> Higher skin/body durability is universal. Harder objects tend to burn at higher temperatures, unless the chemical composition makes them flammable, which isn't the case for human flesh. So don't try this cop-out, it doesn't work. But because you asked so nicely:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"Universal"?  Do you mean, all Naruto characters are inhumanly durable?  I'm sorry, but that would be a fallacy of composition.  Just because a few Naruto characters are durable doesn't mean all are.  You have to prove the durability of each individually.

Yes, Kimminaro is more durable than Sasuke, when it comes to getting hit by blunt force.  Humans may not be extremely flammable, thank God, but they still burn.  Kimminaro would still burn.



> If they're all tunneling through the mountain, then they're not fighting back, and Lee is free to run. An omnidirectional are shield is also really only effective when it's strong enough to stop whatever's attacking it. Lol.



Run?  Run where?  He's squished under a mountain.

Also, you haven't proved that Lee could punch through the shield yet.  So yeah, the shields would be effective.



> Amaterasu misses the complex:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



At the bold:  Maybe this proves that wrong.

I'm still not seeing a huge feat of burning.  Yes, Amaterasu is powerful and dangerous, but it's just not on the scale of Ozai's comet-powered firebending.




> No, not really. Sasuke's Katon: Gouryuuka no Jutsu helped heat the atmosphere along with Amaterasu (the latter of which did it by itself later on), and Jiraiya's combo Katon with Gamabunta is way better than any firebending feat.
> 
> And again, peak humans. Even if they had flamethrowers and Lee had a box of matches, he would shove that box of matches through each and every one of their rectal passages long before they could ever pull the trigger.



"Heat the atmosphere"?  What is that supposed to mean?  And dragons, comet-powered Ozai or Iroh > Jiraiya and Gamabunta.



This is an attack from Combustion Man.  It had shockwaves in it, but Aang reacted to it before it detonated.

"When a shockwave is created by high explosives such as TNT (which has a detonation velocity of 6,900 m/s), it will always travel at high, supersonic velocity from its point of origin."



Combustion Man's blasts qualify as high explosives.  So much for blitzing.



> Lol, broken knuckles:
> 
> 
> 
> ...









And that's just non-Comet Powered feats.

And yeah, since Aang's earth shell took repeated poundings from Ozai, he could block most of what you posted.



> Iroh is not lightning-speed. If you're suggesting he is, you're basically putting him above most Bleach and One Piece characters.
> 
> Just because he manipulated natural lightning doesn't mean he is faster than it. Sasuke does the same thing with his Kirin technique and he admits that it's impossible to dodge. I can control where I aim a gun and when I fire it, but am I faster than the bullet? No. It's the same concept.



"Manipulated"?  I'm afraid you're a little confused.  The lightning bolt came down from the sky, and Iroh redirected it.  It's like catching a full speed bullet in a gun barrel and then firing it again.  Iroh needed precise reaction abilities to intercept it.  Like it or not, that's the fact.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jan 22, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Ok, then.  Show me something from the Narutoverse more impressive than plugging a volcano or moving an island.


Sure, the Kyuubi with a single wave of _one_ of its _nine_ tails flattens moutains and raises tsunamis.  Uchiha Madara controlled this creature, and Shodai Hokage-sama defeated Madara and Kyuubi. 
Now the Third Hokage, in his old age defeated that same Shodai Hokage, who had the assistance of Nidaime.  





> "A little bit of stone"?  We're talking about thick rock pillars here.  Pillars Aang smashed through at high speeds without slowing down.  Tree root pulling isn't going to cut it.


How about Uchiha Madara simply phases through it.  And Rock Lee>Ang in terms of Physical strength.  This is the guy that kills people by power driving them from several meters in the air.




> "Universal"?  Do you mean, all Naruto characters are inhumanly durable?  I'm sorry, but that would be a fallacy of composition.  Just because a few Naruto characters are durable doesn't mean all are.  You have to prove the durability of each individually.


Actually yes, considering most of them can survive being tossed through buildings.


> Yes, Kimminaro is more durable than Sasuke, when it comes to getting hit by blunt force.  Humans may not be extremely flammable, thank God, but they still burn.  Kimminaro would still burn.


Doubtful, Kimmimaro's bones are harder than steel.  They survived being crushed by Gaara's sand.  Gaara's sand has the pressure of a deep Ocean, anyone who is caught in it, dies in a horrific explosion.  Look at Deidara's arm or that fodder in the forest of death.



> Run?  Run where?  He's squished under a mountain.
> 
> Also, you haven't proved that Lee could punch through the shield yet.  So yeah, the shields would be effective.


Lee moves fast enough too kill them before they even have the thought of moving the mountain



> I'm still not seeing a huge feat of burning.  Yes, Amaterasu is powerful and dangerous, but it's just not on the scale of Ozai's comet-powered firebending.


That's wrong.  Amaterasu burned through fire resistant tissue.  Its beyond fire or any comprehensible heat.  Anything it touches will burn.  



> "Heat the atmosphere"?  What is that supposed to mean?  And dragons, comet-powered Ozai or Iroh > Jiraiya and Gamabunta.


In order to heat the atmosphere you need extreme power, especially to the degree too form a lightning storm.  And Jiraiya and Gamabunta's Katon was like a kilometer in diameter.


> Xavi lols when heards the rumours about Florentino wanting Messi for Real Madrid
> 
> This is an attack from Combustion Man.  It had shockwaves in it, but Aang reacted to it before it detonated.
> 
> ...


Kakashi, Gai, and many Jounin are faster than EVEN ROCK LEE! Heaven forbid Madara, or Yondaime they are still capable of blitzing.

Xavi lols when heards the rumours about Florentino wanting Messi for Real Madrid 
Xavi lols when heards the rumours about Florentino wanting Messi for Real Madrid 
Xavi lols when heards the rumours about Florentino wanting Messi for Real Madrid 
Xavi lols when heards the rumours about Florentino wanting Messi for Real Madrid 
Xavi lols when heards the rumours about Florentino wanting Messi for Real Madrid 



> And that's just non-Comet Powered feats.
> 
> And yeah, since Aang's earth shell took repeated poundings from Ozai, he could block most of what you posted.


He can block a beast that can flatten a mountain with the wave of his tale nope try again.




> "Manipulated"?  I'm afraid you're a little confused.  The lightning bolt came down from the sky, and Iroh redirected it.  It's like catching a full speed bullet in a gun barrel and then firing it again.  Iroh needed precise reaction abilities to intercept it.  Like it or not, that's the fact.


And? Kakashi cut a lightning bolt in half with Raikiri, try the timing needed for that. 
That's not even Kakashi's best feat.


----------



## Nihonjin (Jan 22, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> At this point, my main disagreement with Nihonjin is on energybending.  He insists that somehow all ninjas could resist it, *but refuses to name a single feat of ninjas controlling energy within their body.*  Until he does, I'm not going to bother.



All their techniques are built on bending their own energy (walking on walls, water,etc). I don't understand how anyone can be stubborn enough to disagree...



"First there is a need to build up the chakra required for that particular technique, from there, it's necessary to control the chakra"



"Because the control he exerts over his chakra is perfect.."

If that isn't controlling the energy within your body, then I don't know what else to tell you.


----------



## Shirō Kazami (Jan 22, 2009)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Sure, the Kyuubi with a single wave of _one_ of its _nine_ tails flattens moutains and raises tsunamis.
> 
> Kakashi cut a lightning bolt in half with Raikiri, try the timing needed for that.




Let me guess, you also think Haku moves at lightspeed.


----------



## Amatsu (Jan 22, 2009)

I really don't like having to come back into this thread, but I'd at least like to point out that the Avatarverse's ability to control lightning speaks more about their reaction speed. Not their actual speed. Besides that I love how everyone forgets that controlling lightning is dangerous as Iroh explained. The slightest mistake can be deadly.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jan 22, 2009)

Jugglenaut said:


> Let me guess, you also think Haku moves at lightspeed.



Of coarse not, but considering that the eight tails obliterated a square mile of landscape in one attack, I'd say that what was stated about the Kyuubi isn't far off
Kakashi did cut a lightning bolt in half though


----------



## nordic (Jan 22, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> Yes, Kimminaro is more durable than Sasuke, when it comes to getting hit by blunt force.  Humans may not be extremely flammable, thank God, but they still burn.  Kimminaro would still burn.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Commander Shepard (Jan 22, 2009)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:
			
		

> Sure, the Kyuubi with a single wave of one of its nine tails flattens moutains and raises tsunamis. Uchiha Madara controlled this creature, and Shodai Hokage-sama defeated Madara and Kyuubi.
> Now the Third Hokage, in his old age defeated that same Shodai Hokage, who had the assistance of Nidaime.



That info on the Kyuubi is simple hyperbole.  We've never actually seen full-powered Kyuubi in action.  In any case, Kyuubi is sealed inside Naruto, so his full power can't be used.

As for Madara controlling Kyuubi against Shodai... I'm sorry, I thought the fight was just Madara v. Shodai, then Madara controlled Kyuubi and sent it to attack Konoha under Yondaime.  You'll have to prove Shodai took down Kyuubi.

As for Third Hokage vs. Orochimaru, Shodai, and Nidaime, I'd hesitate to say the zombies of Shodai and Nidai were at their original power.  If so, that _really_ brings down the relative power of Shodai and Nidai- and Madara, if Shodai was able to beat him.



> How about Uchiha Madara simply phases through it. And Rock Lee>Ang in terms of Physical strength. This is the guy that kills people by power driving them from several meters in the air.



Scan of Madara "phasing", please.  And yes, I know Rock Lee is physically stronger than Aang (although the Avatar State does seem to give Aang a small strength boost- he blocked and direct-contact neck chop from Ozai in the Avatar State).  What I'm talking about is Aang's omnidirectional air shield, which Aang constantly has up when in the Avatar State.  With the shield Aang smashed straight through large rock pillars while flying at high velocities.  You've got to at least prove that Lee is strong enough to punch throught those rock pillars if he is to stand a chance at breaching Aang's shield.



> Actually yes, considering most of them can survive being tossed through buildings.



"Most" does not prove "all".  Each has to be proven individually.



> Doubtful, Kimmimaro's bones are harder than steel. They survived being crushed by Gaara's sand. Gaara's sand has the pressure of a deep Ocean, anyone who is caught in it, dies in a horrific explosion. Look at Deidara's arm or that fodder in the forest of death.



Still an earth-based attack.  Resistance to an earth-based attack does not prove resistance to fire-based attacks.



> Lee moves fast enough too kill them before they even have the thought of moving the mountain



Maybe for one or two Avatars, but after that they'll have air shields up and be floating 100+ feet in the air.



> That's wrong. Amaterasu burned through fire resistant tissue. Its beyond fire or any comprehensible heat. Anything it touches will burn.



Straw man fallacy _and_ a no-limits fallacy.  I'm talking scale, not heat.  And I'm pretty sure Amaterasu would not burn something like adamantium.  Not that there's anything like it in the Avatarverse, but still, that last statement is false.



> In order to heat the atmosphere you need extreme power, especially to the degree too form a lightning storm. And Jiraiya and Gamabunta's Katon was like a kilometer in diameter.



I'm still not getting this "heat the atmosphere" thing.  How much was heated?  Technically, the space heater in the room I'm sitting in is "heating the atmosphere" of the room.

Scan for proof of that last statement, please?



> Kakashi, Gai, and many Jounin are faster than EVEN ROCK LEE! Heaven forbid Madara, or Yondaime they are still capable of blitzing.



Sure, they're faster than Rock Lee.  That does absolutely nothing to prove they are faster than 6,900 m/s.



> He can block a beast that can flatten a mountain with the wave of his tale nope try again.



I never claimed he could.  I just said Aang could block what Nikushimi posted.



> And? Kakashi cut a lightning bolt in half with Raikiri, try the timing needed for that.
> That's not even Kakashi's best feat.



And Kakashi has the Sharingan.  All of four people in the Narutoverse, one dead, have it.



			
				Nihonjin said:
			
		

> All their techniques are built on bending their own energy (walking on walls, water,etc). I don't understand how anyone can be stubborn enough to disagree...
> 
> "First there is a need to build up the chakra required for that particular technique, from there, it's necessary to control the chakra"
> 
> ...



They use chakra to do things _outside_ their bodies.  Like benders use chi to do things _outside_ their bodies.  Building up chakra isn't a feat of resistance, it's just a feat of building energy for use _outside_ the body.



			
				Aethos said:
			
		

> I really don't like having to come back into this thread, but I'd at least like to point out that the Avatarverse's ability to control lightning speaks more about their reaction speed. Not their actual speed. Besides that I love how everyone forgets that controlling lightning is dangerous as Iroh explained. The slightest mistake can be deadly.



Exactly.  Reaction speed.  Which is what can stop blitzing.  And to clarify- it's redirecting lightning that is potentially lethal.  The only danger with casting lightning is that it will blow up (non-lethally) in your face if you have "emotional turmoil" when doing it.



			
				Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:
			
		

> Of coarse not, but considering that the eight tails obliterated a square mile of landscape in one attack, I'd say that what was stated about the Kyuubi isn't far off
> Kakashi did cut a lightning bolt in half though



"Square mile" is an exaggeration.  But anyway, it took _all eight tails_ to do that.  If anything, it proves the "leveling mountains with a flick of a tail" thing to be even more unlikely.  Sure, Kyuubi could probably do it with all nine tails.  But not casually.



			
				nordic said:
			
		

> Kimimaros bones is as hard as steel. They survived Gaaras sand.



Kimminaro isn't made of all bones.  He still has skin and organs that he can't live without.  Those are flammable, and firebenders can burn them.

BTW, when it comes to flammability, it doesn't matter how hard something is.  If it's flammable, it's flammable.


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## Lord Stark (Jan 22, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> That info on the Kyuubi is simple hyperbole.  We've never actually seen full-powered Kyuubi in action.  In any case, Kyuubi is sealed inside Naruto, so his full power can't be used.


Doubtful, the village Hidden in the Leaves couldn't stand up against it without Yondaime sacrificing itself.  The Kyuubi is referred too as a natural disaster many times in the series.
Please point out where in the OP its stated that dead characters cannot be used?



> As for Madara controlling Kyuubi against Shodai... I'm sorry, I thought the fight was just Madara v. Shodai, then Madara controlled Kyuubi and sent it to attack Konoha under Yondaime.  You'll have to prove Shodai took down Kyuubi.


yeah even when you look back at Deidei fight Sasuke had both wings and snakes on his back.
Eat those words.  Your apology is accepted.  Considering that Shodai won, he also beat the Kyuubi.  Also the fight between the two created the Valley of the End.



> As for Third Hokage vs. Orochimaru, Shodai, and Nidaime, I'd hesitate to say the zombies of Shodai and Nidai were at their original power.  If so, that _really_ brings down the relative power of Shodai and Nidai- and Madara, if Shodai was able to beat him.


The next generation of Hokage under most circumstances surpasses the next.  Yondaime would have surpassed Sandaime, but he died too early.  Never is it stated or implied that the two Shinra Tenseis were below par.  If it were, then Sandaime would have noticed considering he trained under both.




> Scan of Madara "phasing", please.  And yes, I know Rock Lee is physically stronger than Aang (although the Avatar State does seem to give Aang a small strength boost- he blocked and direct-contact neck chop from Ozai in the Avatar State).  What I'm talking about is Aang's omnidirectional air shield, which Aang constantly has up when in the Avatar State.  With the shield Aang smashed straight through large rock pillars while flying at high velocities.  You've got to at least prove that Lee is strong enough to punch throught those rock pillars if he is to stand a chance at breaching Aang's shield.


yeah even when you look back at Deidei fight Sasuke had both wings and snakes on his back.
yeah even when you look back at Deidei fight Sasuke had both wings and snakes on his back.
yeah even when you look back at Deidei fight Sasuke had both wings and snakes on his back.
yeah even when you look back at Deidei fight Sasuke had both wings and snakes on his back.


> "Most" does not prove "all".  Each has to be proven individually.
> 
> 
> 
> Still an earth-based attack.  Resistance to an earth-based attack does not prove resistance to fire-based attacks.


Enough can though.  And Naruto tanked one of Sauske's fire jutsus.



> Maybe for one or two Avatars, but after that they'll have air shields up and be floating 100+ feet in the air.


Then get swamped by say Gaara's sand.




> Straw man fallacy _and_ a no-limits fallacy.  I'm talking scale, not heat.  And I'm pretty sure Amaterasu would not burn something like adamantium.  Not that there's anything like it in the Avatarverse, but still, that last statement is false.


Irrelevant, anything in the Narutoverse can be burned by Amaterasu.



> I'm still not getting this "heat the atmosphere" thing.  How much was heated?  Technically, the space heater in the room I'm sitting in is "heating the atmosphere" of the room.
> 
> Scan for proof of that last statement, please?



yeah even when you look back at Deidei fight Sasuke had both wings and snakes on his back.
Keep in mind Bunta is 100m+ across.



> Sure, they're faster than Rock Lee.  That does absolutely nothing to prove they are faster than 6,900 m/s.


Is there anything in the Avatarverse that can.  Yondaime and Madara can move faster than the speed of light.  


> I never claimed he could.  I just said Aang could block what Nikushimi posted.


Aang can't bust through the upper tier ultimate defenses like Susano'o or Kyuubi's chakra sheild now can it.




> And Kakashi has the Sharingan.  All of four people in the Narutoverse, one dead, have it.


There's an entire clan with it.


> Exactly.  Reaction speed.  Which is what can stop blitzing.  And to clarify- it's redirecting lightning that is potentially lethal.  The only danger with casting lightning is that it will blow up (non-lethally) in your face if you have "emotional turmoil" when doing it.


How will they defend against the moves. Sauske saw Lee's moves with the Sharingan, but his body wasn't fast enough to counter it.



> "Square mile" is an exaggeration.  But anyway, it took _all eight tails_ to do that.  If anything, it proves the "leveling mountains with a flick of a tail" thing to be even more unlikely.  Sure, Kyuubi could probably do it with all nine tails.  But not casually.


yeah even when you look back at Deidei fight Sasuke had both wings and snakes on his back.
yeah even when you look back at Deidei fight Sasuke had both wings and snakes on his back.
Hardly an exaggeration.





> Kimminaro isn't made of all bones.  He still has skin and organs that he can't live without.  Those are flammable, and firebenders can burn them.


No, but he can develope a layer of bone right under his skin, and protect his body as skin would (well hard as steel skin)



> BTW, when it comes to flammability, it doesn't matter how hard something is.  If it's flammable, it's flammable.


Bones aren't flammable, this is why people's skeletons remain after fires.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 22, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> *They use chakra to do things outside their bodies*.  Like benders use chi to do things _outside_ their bodies.  Building up chakra isn't a feat of resistance, it's just a feat of building energy for use _outside_ the body.



When has it ever been said that benders use Chi to bend? Proof please?

Anyway, just because some techniques form outside of their bodies doesn't mean they're limited to just that.

Take this for example, a pretty simple technique that every ninja can do that requires control in their body.



And seeing as gathering chakra at the bottom of your feet is the hardest (according to Kakashi), every ninja (in theory atleast) should be able to gather & control chakra anywhere in their body.


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## Banhammer (Jan 22, 2009)

Kimiaro get's killed. Roku was vaporizing steel with his fire way back in season one, and so was zuko without comet destroying stuff like steel chairs and stuff


Again, Roku beings the fight with an omni directional steel vaporizing fire kaiten.
Where's the debate?


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## Amatsu (Jan 22, 2009)

Banhammer said:


> Kimiaro get's killed. Roku was vaporizing steel with his fire way back in season one, and so was zuko without comet destroying stuff like steel chairs and stuff
> 
> 
> Again, Roku beings the fight with an omni directional steel vaporizing fire kaiten.
> Where's the debate?



So where does Roku get all the volcanos so that he can fling lava at everyone he sees?


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 22, 2009)

Aethos- Roku doesn't need a source of lava.  He melts stone and steel with just plain firebending, in the episode "The Winter Solstice, Part 2:  Avatar Roku".  I would post images, but Avatarspirit.net is down right now.



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Doubtful, the village Hidden in the Leaves couldn't stand up against it without Yondaime sacrificing itself.  The Kyuubi is referred too as a natural disaster many times in the series.
> Please point out where in the OP its stated that dead characters cannot be used?



True, true.  It still doesn't give us power to measure for the Kyuubi.

I'm just arguing on the basis from current Avatarverse, with past Avatars, against the current Narutoverse.  If all past Naruto characters are included, that evens things out.  But as it stands, all the past Avatars would pwn the current Narutoverse.



> blasting back a Pacifista
> Eat those words.  Your apology is accepted.  Considering that Shodai won, he also beat the Kyuubi.  Also the fight between the two created the Valley of the End.



Fine, fine, I'm wrong.  Or at least, it would appear that way.



> The next generation of Hokage under most circumstances surpasses the next.  Yondaime would have surpassed Sandaime, but he died too early.  Never is it stated or implied that the two Shinra Tenseis were below par.  If it were, then Sandaime would have noticed considering he trained under both.



I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make sense.  The battle between Orochimaru, Shodaime, Nidaime, and Sandaime was, as with most pre-timeskip battles, much lighter than post-skip battles.  If that's how powerful Shodaime was, and he was able to beat Madara and Kyuubi... it just doesn't make sense, given how powerful Madara and Kyuubi are assumed to be.  It would imply that Madara and Kyuubi are much weaker than the hyperbole.  For the sake of keeping their reputations afloat, we have to assume the resurrected Shodaime and Nidaime were weaker than the living versions.



> blasting back a Pacifista
> blasting back a Pacifista
> blasting back a Pacifista
> blasting back a Pacifista



Interesting.  He can still be tagged with a hit if he's off guard, though.  And it probably uses chakra, which has limits.



> Enough can though.  And Naruto tanked one of Sauske's fire jutsus.



Ok.  Your point?



> Then get swamped by say Gaara's sand.



The Avatars collectively brush Gaara's sand aside.



> Irrelevant, anything in the Narutoverse can be burned by Amaterasu.



Fine, then.  Kishi's ignoring the laws of physics, again.



> blasting back a Pacifista
> Keep in mind Bunta is 100m+ across.



Impressive.  A bunch of fodder benders on Sozin's Comet can match it, though.



> Is there anything in the Avatarverse that can.  Yondaime and Madara can move faster than the speed of light.



Allow me to repeat myself.

Link removed

This is an attack from Combustion Man.  It had shockwaves in it, but Aang reacted to it before it detonated.

"When a shockwave is created by high explosives such as TNT (which has a detonation velocity of 6,900 m/s), it will always travel at high, supersonic velocity from its point of origin."



Combustion Man's blasts qualify as high explosives.  So much for blitzing.

And @ Madara and Yondaime are lightspeed:





> Aang can't bust through the upper tier ultimate defenses like Susano'o or Kyuubi's chakra sheild now can it.



Kyuubi chakra shield, yes.  Rock bullets that destroy aforementioned rock pillars would pound KN4 Naruto into oblivion.  As for Susano'o-  I'm not sure.  Ice breath that freezes lava could work.



> There's an entire clan with it.



That was dead before the series started.



> How will they defend against the moves. Sauske saw Lee's moves with the Sharingan, but his body wasn't fast enough to counter it.



Iroh firebends.  Nuff said.




> blasting back a Pacifista
> blasting back a Pacifista
> Hardly an exaggeration.



Yes, yes it does look like an exaggeration.  Half mile radius is more like it.



> No, but he can develope a layer of bone right under his skin, and protect his body as skin would (well hard as steel skin)
> 
> Bones aren't flammable, this is why people's skeletons remain after fires.



He can?  Didn't know that.  Proof, please?  And yes, I know bones don't burn.  The rest of the body does, though.

Banhammer brings up a good point, though.  Avatar Roku was able to melt steel with his firebending.  I would post a screenshot, but my source, Avatarspirit.net, is down right now.



			
				Nihonjin said:
			
		

> When has it ever been said that benders use Chi to bend? Proof please?



In the episode "The Drill", Ty Lee hits some earthbenders' pressure points, paralyzing them and disabling their bending.  When Katara is analyzing him, she says his chi has been blocked.  Also, in the DVD commentary for Sozin's Comet, the creators of Avatar describe energybending as "rewiring Ozai's chi".



> Anyway, just because some techniques form outside of their bodies doesn't mean they're limited to just that.



True.  But there's no proof the other way, either.



> Take this for example, a pretty simple technique that every ninja can do that requires control in their body.
> 
> And seeing as gathering chakra at the bottom of your feet is the hardest (according to Kakashi), every ninja (in theory atleast) should be able to gather & control chakra anywhere in their body.



That's still just using chakra to do something outside the body.  Not a feat of resisting outside influence to your chakra system.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 22, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> In the episode "The Drill", Ty Lee hits some earthbenders' pressure points, paralyzing them and disabling their bending.  When Katara is analyzing him, she says his chi has been blocked.  Also, in the DVD commentary for Sozin's Comet, the creators of Avatar describe energybending as "rewiring Ozai's chi".



Fair enough.



> That's still just using chakra to do something outside the body.



Gathering & controlling chakra in certain parts of your body is doing something outside the body? You lost me there. 



> Not a feat of resisting outside influence to your chakra system.



We both know such a feat doesn't directly exist anywhere in the Naruto manga, but I don't need it.

Aangs best energy bending feat is bending someone who has no control over his own energy. So all I had to prove is that Ninjas have better control over their energy than Ozai. These scans prove that.

So again, if Aang (or anyone else for that matter) tries to energy bend anyone, he'll fail and die/get consumed/whatever.


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 22, 2009)

What is the difference?  Ozai uses energy well enough to firebend.  Ninja use energy to do jutsus.  Little difference, not enough to what works on Ozai won't work on ninjas.  Unless ninja have feats of specifically resisting outside influences on their chakra systems, energybending will work on them.


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## RWB (Jan 22, 2009)

Nihonjin said:


> Aangs best energy bending feat is bending someone who has no control over his own energy.



Bending is done by utilising and controlling your chi- energy.

Ozai is the best Firebender in the world.
Aang beat one of the people that are the best in the world at controlling his energy.


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## Nihonjin (Jan 23, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> What is the difference?  Ozai uses energy well enough to firebend.  Ninja use energy to do jutsus.  Little difference, not enough to what works on Ozai won't work on ninjas.  Unless ninja have feats of specifically resisting outside influences on their chakra systems, energybending will work on them.





Bender Alchemist said:


> They use chakra to do things _outside_ their bodies.  Like benders use chi to do things _outside_ their bodies.  Building up chakra isn't a feat of resistance, it's just a feat of building energy for use _outside_ the body.



Don't break your own rules now. Going by your logic, there is absolutely nothing to suggest Ozai has any control over the energy in his own body.

And besides, based on what the turtle said, I doubt Ozai knows he's using his energy. If he actually did know, and is skilled at using it, how come he's limited to just using it for fire bending? (unlike Ninjas who use their energy for a wide variety of things)

As for resisting outside influence to their chakra system, any form of genjutsu cancellation should do it.




^Something even a decent Genin can do.

So again, if Aang tries to energy bend anyone, he'll end up dead/consumed/whatever.


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 23, 2009)

To quote Iroh from the very first Avatar episode, when explaining how firebending works to Zuko:

"Power in firebending comes from the breath. Not the muscles. The breath becomes energy in the body. The energy extends past your limbs and becomes fire."

So yes, firebending is controlling energy within the body, to some extent.

As for genjutsu... note how Jiraiya says "Then someone must must be touching your body and placing their chakra into yours to disrupt the flow" if simply dispelling it fails.  So, direct contact is superior to dispelling.  Energybending is direct contact.

BTW, dispel needs a hand sign.  Energybending stuns the victim during the process- no oppurtunity to do the handsign.


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## Lord Stark (Jan 23, 2009)

Bender Alchemist said:


> To quote Iroh from the very first Avatar episode, when explaining how firebending works to Zuko:
> 
> "Power in firebending comes from the breath. Not the muscles. The breath becomes energy in the body. The energy extends past your limbs and becomes fire."
> 
> ...


There are many Genjutsu in the Narutoverse that cannot be broken by anything other than the Sharingan, or they consume multiple individuals


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## Commander Shepard (Jan 23, 2009)

And that's good... how?  Nihonjin was arguing dispel beats genjutsu, so it would beat energybending.  Saying some genjutsu is hard to dispel is just bringing down the power of dispelling.


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