# EMS Sasuke vs Itachi



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 13, 2013)

*Conditions:* Itachi has the same chakra capacity that Sasuke has. He's also not sick, so he gains the speed he lost and doesn't cough blood. 
*
Location and distance:* the iron country bridge. Sasuke is where he is and Itachi is where Tobi is.

*Knowledge:* manga

*State of Mind:* IC


Now that we've got more knowledge on Sasuke, such as his Enton jutsu and the fact he actually retained his snake summoning contract... Does this change things?


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## Nikushimi (Aug 13, 2013)

Nothing has changed and I don't see why you would think anything has changed.

EMS Sasuke>MS Itachi; the only thing that can tip the scales is Izanami, but Sasuke knows about that and how to get out of it. Itachi's as good as dead the second he lets down Susano'o for it, anyway, unless he can manage to slip in a clone feint under Sasuke's nose twice without being detected.

Either one of them can win depending on who uses their chakra more efficiently, but I give the edge to Sasuke because Kirin will take a lot out of Itachi when it hits. EMS seems to allow the possessor to wield the Mangekyou Jutsu much more easily, anyway.

If you hadn't boosted Itachi's stamina to be equal with Sasuke's, his chances of winning would be so low that I may as well just call this one 10/10 in Sasuke's favor; it would just come down to outlasting Itachi with Susano'o.


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 13, 2013)

Itachi can't genjutsu him , which nullifies a good deal of the damage he would be able to do to him, and Sasuke when you add in Snake Summons and his ability to use Enton, Sasuke has the ability to spam his abilites much more which is always been why Sasuje is a terrible matchup since he mastered his MS

Sasuke takes this mid-difficulty 


As far is in manga I still don't think he's surpassed Itachi overall as I think it will be highlited by kishi


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## Doge (Aug 13, 2013)

Sasuke outlasts him in Susanoo with Enton.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 13, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Either one of them can win depending on who uses their chakra more efficiently, but I give the edge to Sasuke because Kirin will take a lot out of Itachi when it hits. EMS seems to allow the possessor to wield the Mangekyou Jutsu much more easily, anyway.



Seems how? As far as we know (in the order he discovered them) Sasuke has Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi and Susanoo.
At most, with the evidence available to us, you can say EMS may give him Perfect Susanoo- but obviously we're not factoring that ITT.


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## Epicpudding (Aug 13, 2013)

Sasuke probably takes the win. He's been more powerful than MS Itachi for a long time.


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## Elite Uchiha (Aug 13, 2013)

EMS Itachi takes this with mid difficulty.


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## ImSerious (Aug 13, 2013)

Itachi vs Sasuke is basically Susano vs Susano, which means Sasuke will always win as itachi is never outlasting him.

Restrict Susano and itachi rapes his rookie ass.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 13, 2013)

Itachi's superiority in Genjutsu will do nothing to Sasuke considering we've seen 3 tomoe Sharingan Sasuke break out of Itachi's Tsukyomi.

 It will be an Amaterasu vs. Amaterasu or Susanoo vs. Susanoo which in this case, Sasuke takes it. Sasuke won't suffer from blindness from Itachi would (even if they had same chakra capacity) and Sasuke's Amaterasu can be used offensively and defensively.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 13, 2013)

Itachi wins. His superior Susano'o items give him the edge.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 13, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi wins. His superior Susano'o items give him the edge.



If you're referring to superior Susanoo, then that goes to Sasuke. Sasuke's Susanoo is basically Itachi's Susanoo, but with more items and the ability to use Kagutsuchi with them.


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## Almondsand (Aug 13, 2013)

Nikushimi... dude you basically said Sasuke wins because of Karin.. LOL

Itachi has shown that he is the more efficent and battle smart brother.. Itachi is the one who made the infamous quote "every jutsu have a weakness" and with manga knowledge he will be victorious because he will already have a plan and move for whatever Sasuke pulls plus he thinks before he acts... Sasuke moves more on impulse which if he wasn't a main character would had killed him by now dealing with the high tiers.


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## Empathy (Aug 13, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Nikushimi... dude you basically said Sasuke wins because of Karin.. LOL
> 
> Itachi has shown that he is the more efficent and battle smart brother.. Itachi is the one who made the infamous quote "every jutsu have a weakness" and with manga knowledge he will be victorious because he will already have a plan and move for whatever Sasuke pulls plus he thinks before he acts... Sasuke moves more on impulse which if he wasn't a main character would had killed him by now dealing with the high tiers.



I think you mean _Kirin_ (which would take a lot out of him), not Karin, the female Taka member. Also, that's a pretty vague and obscure way to give Itachi the victory. "_Itachi will already have a plan for whatever Sasuke pulls_?" What could his plan possibly be to counter literally anything Sasuke throws at him?


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## Cord (Aug 13, 2013)

I think we've already come to the point where it's safe to assume that Sasuke has already surpassed Itachi in terms of raw power. So I'd favor him to win this match more often times than not. Their chakra capacity may have been equalized here, but that's not going to relieve the latter from the drawbacks that the extended Mangekyo Sharingan usage would place on the user's eyes (like eye strain or eventual blindness).  And that should already give Sasuke a significant advantage- granted that this comes down to a battle of Susano'o, where he's decisively more capable of maintaining his Susano'o for a longer period of time. More so with the fact that he can manifest and combine Enton with it: making his overall defense and offense more efficient than ever.

Perhaps, Itachi's only chance of winning this is by whipping out Izanami. Though I wouldn't bet that he'd use it here (IC) nor is it going to be effective. Despite the ambiguity in Sasuke's current goals, he isn't necessarily suffering from some kind of identity crisis now, is he?


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2013)

MS Sasuke was more or less stronger than itachi. EMS Sasuke is clearly stronger, he wins this 10/10 
With mid difficult at most.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 14, 2013)

^ I'm thinking you're talking about Sick Itachi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 14, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ I'm thinking you're talking about Sick Itachi.


You do know there is absolutely no such thing as Healthy Itachi, right?


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ I'm thinking you're talking about Sick Itachi.



I'm talking about the itachi that appeared in the manga, not fanfiction itachi. If he's sick that his
Own problem and that his true power. Also, even healthy itachi is the same itachi in part 1.


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## JoshTheReaper (Aug 14, 2013)

I believe that Itachi was dying from an illness, I don't remember the specifics. 

EMS Sasuke > MS Itachi in my book,

Sasuke wins, hard difficulty due to Itachi's experience


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do know there is absolutely no such thing as Healthy Itachi, right?



 You do know that Healthy Itachi is much stronger than Sick Itachi and that there's no way MS Sasuke made gains before EMS big enough to be stronger than a potential Itachi at his prime?

 Not sure if Healthy Itachi is the same one in Part 1 considering he was dying from an illness and suffering from blindness before anyone could tell.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 14, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> You do know that Healthy Itachi is much stronger than Sick Itachi and that there's no way MS Sasuke made gains before EMS big enough to be stronger than a potential Itachi at his prime?
> 
> Not sure if Healthy Itachi is the same one in Part 1 considering he was dying from an illness and suffering from blindness before anyone could tell.


Healthy Itachi is a myth perpetrated Itachi fans that want to take away his weaknesses. Edo Itachi is the closest you get and we saw his limits as an Edo Tensei.

Healthy Itachi would suffer from the same weaknesses he had: paralyzing low stamina (can't fight for extended periods) and every use of the Mangekyo causing blindness. MS Sasuke can fight for longer than Itachi, can break Itachi's genjutsus, and finally can outlast him in the Susano'o fight and mold Amaterasu against Itachi (something Itachi can't do). Itachi himself said with the Mangekyo, Sasuke would be stronger than him.


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## Bonly (Aug 14, 2013)

This basically comes down to who can outlast who and since they both have the same amount of chakra here, it all depends on who is gonna use more chakra in their attacks/defense which has me at 50/50 although if I had to pick a side I'd go with healthy Itachi.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do know there is absolutely no such thing as Healthy Itachi, right?



So Itachi was sick his entire life?


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## Nikushimi (Aug 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do know there is absolutely no such thing as Healthy Itachi, right?



Unless Itachi was sick for literally his entire life, there was definitely such a thing as "healthy Itachi" at one point.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Healthy Itachi is a myth perpetrated Itachi fans that want to take away his weaknesses.



"Healthy Itachi" is a valid subject of discussion, provided his condition is operationalized for the sake of argument. In this case, Munboy has defined him as having stamina equal to Sasuke's. You may not agree with that, but that is the premise laid out for this discussion.



> Healthy Itachi would suffer from the same weaknesses he had: paralyzing low stamina (can't fight for extended periods)



There is no evidence to suggest what Itachi's stamina would be like without his poor health. Given how little he had compared to other shinobi around his age and general strength, it's hard to imagine that his disease was not a contributing factor on _some_ level. He is literally the ONLY person with such low stamina relative to his power; it's on the same level as Chuunin like Shikamaru and Sakura or old people with noted stamina deficiencies like Hiruzen. If it's NOT a result of his poor health, it's definitely still abnormal.



> MS Sasuke can fight for longer than Itachi, can break Itachi's genjutsus, and finally can outlast him in the Susano'o fight and mold Amaterasu against Itachi (something Itachi can't do).



Itachi is much smarter and has Izanami. Although he can't beat Sasuke in a battle of attrition with Susano'o, he can still win.



> Itachi himself said with the Mangekyo, Sasuke would be stronger than him.



No, actually, Itachi said Sasuke wouldn't even be capable of beating him without MS.

He did not say MS would automatically allow Sasuke to win. And that should've been obvious by MS Sasuke's performances up until his fight with Danzou where he finally got a decent grasp of his powers. At any point in his development before then, he would've never been able to beat Itachi.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Seems how? As far as we know (in the order he discovered them) Sasuke has Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi and Susanoo.



I'm not sure what you're asking me.

Also, I disagree about Sasuke having Tsukuyomi.



> At most, with the evidence available to us, you can say EMS may give him Perfect Susanoo- but obviously we're not factoring that ITT.



Sasuke's Enton control prior to EMS was nowhere near as good as it is now and he wasn't able to exercise use of Susano'o as freely as we've seen in recent chapters (although he didn't develop a completed version until he had been fighting for some time, I'll grant you). I think it's also safe to say EMS doesn't cause the user's eyesight to deteriorate, either, since that's kind of the whole point of the Doujutsu. We have not seen Sasuke coughing up blood since awakening the EMS, either.


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## Cord (Aug 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Healthy Itachi is a perpetrated Itachi fans that want to take away his weaknesses. Edo Itachi is the closest you get and we saw his limits as an Edo Tensei.
> 
> Healthy Itachi would suffer from the same weaknesses he had: paralyzing low stamina (can't fight for extended periods) and every use of the Mangekyo causing blindness.



Notice how Itachi's eyes never bled the *first* time he used Amaterasu to escape from Jiraiya's Gamaguchi Shibari in part 1, as opposed to the time when he *first* used it against Sasuke during their battle in part 2? 

Also, in his scuffle with Kakashi and Kurenai, he used Suiton: Suiryūdan, Suigadan as well as Bunshin Daibakuha, and went off to use Tsukuyomi _twice_ both on Kakashi and on Sasuke (later on), yet we've never seen any symptom of an ailment like we had during his battle with his brother- the only time when it was clearly indicated that Itachi was indeed, already suffering from an illness and was in near death.

Something tells me that the Itachi we've seen in part 1 who never had those drawbacks (apart from exhaustion) was a close- if not- the exact portrayal of what a _healthy_ Itachi is. Someone who wasn't plagued nor hindered by any illness besides a really poor stamina. More so with the idea that it *was never* implicated that he's already contracted the disease during that time, or was it?


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## eyeknockout (Aug 14, 2013)

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if itachi could trick sasuke into falling for tsukiyomi. genjutsu isn't supposed to work on killer bee yet it did anyway. itachi just defies all logic in this manga. I wouldn't be surprised if totsuka could pierce susanoo either.


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## Ersa (Aug 14, 2013)

With his current feats, Sasuke murks living Itachi mid difficulty. Both can't bust each other's Susanoo and not only does Sasuke possess more stamina but he also has no strain from MS spam. Sasuke has indeed surpassed his brother; smarts mean little when he was extras like Kirin and summons as back-up.

Make this Edo Itachi and it'll be an even fight in my opinion.


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## ueharakk (Aug 14, 2013)

turns into a battle of susanoos (since that's the height of both of their powers) and sasuke either outlasts or ends  itachi with kirin after spamming enton attacks.

Sasuke's on another level than living itachi, that's why kishi had to bring itachi back as an edo with an immortal body, unlimited chakra and fresh eyes in order to have him look better than sasuke.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 14, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If you're referring to superior Susanoo, then that goes to Sasuke. Sasuke's Susanoo is basically Itachi's Susanoo, but with more items and the ability to use Kagutsuchi with them.



I was referring to Shield of Yata, Sword of Totsuka and Yasaka's Magatama.

As far as we know Sasuke does not possess legendary items like Itachi does.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Healthy Itachi is a myth perpetrated Itachi fans that want to take away his weaknesses.





Three steel scalpels are needed just to shave off that chakra rod, all three are worn down.

Three steel scalpels are needed just to shave off that chakra rod, all three are worn down.

I guess Zetsu was also an Itachi fan 



ueharakk said:


> Sasuke's on another level than living itachi, that's why kishi had to bring itachi back as an edo with an immortal body, unlimited chakra and fresh eyes in order to have him look better than sasuke.



Nice delusion you have there.


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## Ersa (Aug 14, 2013)

While I don't deny EMS Sasuke is superior; Itachi still has the superior Susanoo for now.

Defensive featswise; Itachi still has superior feats. An unspecified form of Susanoo saved him from Kirin which has enough power to level a city; Sasuke's V3 was ripped apart by Danzo's Fuuton. Itachi also has the Yata's Mirror which is not only another layer of armour but can block all nature transformations. Enton Sword and Totsuka are pretty similar in potency, except one actually is a OHKO. 

We have yet to see the full power of either brother's Susanoo, I think Sasuke will get PS soon so it matters little.


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## Larcher (Aug 14, 2013)

The simple fact Sasuke can keep Susano'o up longer due to his sight not being in danger means he will win just a matter of time there in a similar level but Sasuke is simply a bad matchup. Sasuke Mid/High diff



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do know there is absolutely no such thing as Healthy Itachi, right?



Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Let me think about that where does this come from anyway it's not like he was sick his whole life.

Oh yeah you I forgot you have a tendency to dehype Itachi for some reason.


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## Hunter (Aug 14, 2013)

Keep in mind Itachi wasn't going for the kill in his fight with Sasuke, he simply wanted to play his role of the "villain" and take Sasuke to his limits in order to seal Orochimaru and for Sasuke to awaken his own Mangekyou.

In fact Obito said that if Itachi were serious Sasuke would be dead.


As for the fight, Sasuke's Susanoo isn't equipped with supernatural items like Itachi's was, therefore Itachi has the upperhand in defense and offense thanks to the mirror of Yata and the sword of Totsuka. And though Sasuke's Susanoo uses Amaterasu as his "blade", I believe the sword of Totsuka to be better.

As for who has the upper hand and who will win, Sasuke has the upper hand due to his EMS and his Enton jutsu, he simply needs to outlast Itachi, users without EMS are prone to extreme drain of stamina and blindness along the way, not sure if it's the same with EMS in terms of drain of stamina but Sasuke without was able to keep going without EMS, sure he nearly entirely blind at the end but his stamina was above Itachi's. For me Sasuke wins 6/10.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 14, 2013)

Bonly said:


> This basically comes down to who can outlast who and since they both have the same amount of chakra here, it all depends on who is gonna use more chakra in their attacks/defense which has me at 50/50 although if I had to pick a side I'd go with healthy Itachi.


Enton is the overwhelming factor here, it takes Sasuke a small amount to reform it and no side effects like Itachi will get from absorbing Amaterasu. Sasuke also has a better base skill set, and I see Sasuke's Susanoo greater than Itachi's because I don't see either Susanoo attack getting through the other but Amaterasu on the other hand will hurt Itachi's Susanoo, of which Sasuke can cast multiple MSs at the same time Itachi can not.





> So Itachi was sick his entire life?


No just his later eyes from over using MS. All of his symptoms were showed by Sasuke when he overused his eyes. Headaches-Tsukuyomi, Bleeding eye-Amaterasu, coughing up blood body feels like shit- Susanoo.

So I believe most of Itachi's perceived sickness was actually repruccussions from using MS. We have no proof that Itachi was terminally ill, he died of chakra exhaustion as he went fully blind. There is a healthy Itachi, but I consider healthy Itachi to be as is:

-Perfect eyesight that degrades
-No chakra boost, even if so it would be a very small one.
-Better stamina, as in can take hits better

Thats it, not this godly Itachi that never existed even in Edo form. Thats whats ridiculous I have seen people say H Itachi> E Itachi...wtf?


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## IchLiebe (Aug 14, 2013)

Hunter said:


> Keep in mind Itachi wasn't going for the kill in his fight with Sasuke, he simply wanted to play his role of the "villain" and take Sasuke to his limits in order to seal Orochimaru and for Sasuke to awaken his own Mangekyou.


 What about when Itachi engulfed Sasuke with Amaterasu and destroy most of his body? It was ridiculous for Itachi to hoped Sasuke had liquid rebirthing or he would've been dead.





> In fact Obito said that if Itachi were serious Sasuke would be dead.


 Well of course Itachi had Amaterasu and Susanoo game changers from being mid tier to high tier, if Itachi didn't have his MS Kakashi would've killed him. Not to mention after using tsukuyomi he had to retreat for a good portion of the match and that was at the beginning and Sasuke  was overwhelming his katon. I base wise I would put Hebi Sasuke far above Itachi. 





> As for the fight, Sasuke's Susanoo isn't equipped with supernatural items like Itachi's was, therefore Itachi has the upperhand in defense and offense thanks to the mirror of Yata and the sword of Totsuka. And though Sasuke's Susanoo uses Amaterasu as his "blade", I believe the sword of Totsuka to be better.


 Actually I would think the  enton blade would be able to cut better. Totsuka don't have Susanoo busting feats...and you can't say its a legendary weapon because Susanoo is a legendary manifestation and Amaterasu is a legend. You got to understand where legends come from, someone sees them and tells about them. I don't see how Yata Mirror could repel amaterasu the supposedly highest form of katon there is...black water maybe...


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## αce (Aug 14, 2013)

Healthy Itachi doesn't exist in regards to the battledome since there's no way to quantify just how strong he was when he wasn't dying of terminal breast cancer. In the manga though, he was almost certainly healthy at one point. But still, there's no indication on just how strong he was. The only thing we know is that he could kick hebi Sasuke's ass, which isn't really that relevant for this match up.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 14, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm not sure what you're asking me.
> 
> Also, I disagree about Sasuke having Tsukuyomi.



I just listed all the jutsu Sasuke has with the EMS atm, which are atm no different to his MS jutsu. As such I'm disagreeing with the notion that we should consider any EMS jutsu... we've seen none of them. Except, possibly Perfect Susanoo. 

He used it against a Kumo shinobi, Bee and a weaker version against Danzo. Each use performed exactly what Tsukuyomi is said to do.



> Sasuke's Enton control prior to EMS was nowhere near as good as it is now and he wasn't able to exercise use of Susano'o as freely as we've seen in recent chapters (although he didn't develop a completed version until he had been fighting for some time, I'll grant you). I think it's also safe to say EMS doesn't cause the user's eyesight to deteriorate, either, since that's kind of the whole point of the Doujutsu. We have not seen Sasuke coughing up blood since awakening the EMS, either.



Sasuke's Enton control was always good, the only difference between his fighting now and his fighting before is that now he's fighting well as opposed to fighting to test his powers.

When Sasuke coughed blood with Susanoo, it was because he was using it for extended periods of times. You can either infer that Sasuke uses it for less durations compared to before, or like Itachi he got used to it. Nothing that the EMS did; all the EMS did for Susanoo was provide it with a new final form design.

In other words: we haven't seen the EMS exclusive powers yet.

I also think Sasuke being a better Sharingan user is worth noting given that in the Kabuto battle, Itachi needed Tsukuyomi to accomplish what Sasuke could with normal Genjutsu.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I was referring to Shield of Yata, Sword of Totsuka and Yasaka's Magatama.
> 
> As far as we know Sasuke does not possess legendary items like Itachi does.



Sasuke used an incomplete Totsuka, just as Itachi had. When Itachi showed his imperfect version, Sasuke used an Enton coated version. He used an Enton coated Totsuka to obliterate Zetsu.
On top of that he used Yata's Mirror to block Danzo's attack. Sasuke even used Enton coated versions of the Magatama.

So I don't see why you're turning a blind eye to Sasuke's clear feats. In fact Sasuke has shown to be a better user of the items given that he's coated two of them with Enton.



αce said:


> Healthy Itachi doesn't exist in regards to the battledome since there's no way to quantify just how strong he was when he wasn't dying of terminal breast cancer.



The manga outright told us that healthy Itachi is exactly the same except that he would be slightly faster and wouldn't cough blood. Zetsu said it _after_ he said how weakened Itachi was.


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## Hunter (Aug 14, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> What about when Itachi engulfed Sasuke with Amaterasu and destroy most of his body? It was ridiculous for Itachi to hoped Sasuke had liquid rebirthing or he would've been dead.



Somehow I think Itachi knew Sasuke would use that technique, I don't have any evidence but I doubt he would kill the very brother he would was planning to die for.




IchLiebe said:


> Well of course Itachi had Amaterasu and Susanoo game changers from being mid tier to high tier, if Itachi didn't have his MS Kakashi would've killed him.



You could be right, Kakashi was evenly matched from the start with Itachi, but was soon taken out Tsukuyomi.



IchLiebe said:


> Not to mention after using tsukuyomi he had to retreat for a good portion of the match and that was at the beginning and Sasuke was overwhelming his katon.


 Bear in mind we're talking about a weaken Itachi here, and amped up Sasuke with curse seal and Orochimaru abilities.  





IchLiebe said:


> I base wise I would put Hebi Sasuke far above Itachi.


 Base wise, Hebi Sasuke does seem more impressive I agree, but he's no wear near intelligent as Itachi is.  





IchLiebe said:


> Actually I would think the  enton blade would be able to cut better. Totsuka don't have Susanoo busting feats...and you can't say its a legendary weapon because Susanoo is a legendary manifestation and Amaterasu is a legend. You got to understand where legends come from, someone sees them and tells about them. I don't see how Yata Mirror could repel amaterasu the supposedly highest form of katon there is...black water maybe...



I don't think so in my opinion. Totsuka Blade is a blade that seals as oppose to the Enton which incinerates it's foes. Someone like Orochimaru would be able to bypass it's skin shedding techniques whereas Totsuka will seal Orochimaru. Enton blade also has no Susanoo busting feats as well. I didn't say Totsuka is a legendary weapon, I said it was a supernatural weapon which makes Itachi's Susanoo unique due to having those items. I don't know if the Yata Mirror can nullify or repel Amaterasu not because it's a high Katon form but to the fact that amaterasu requires to look at your opponent so the question if you're able to burn someone inside Susanoo otherwise using the Enton blade on Itachi's Susanoo that wields Yata's mirror would nullify the attack. They're both unique, one incinerates and the other seals but I prefer Itachi's version.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> On top of that he used Yata's Mirror to block Danzo's attack.


 I don't remember that, do you have a link? I remember Yata's Mirror only being unique to Itachi' Susanoo.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 14, 2013)

Hunter said:


> I don't remember that, do you have a link? I remember Yata's Mirror only being unique to Itachi' Susanoo.



Sasuke used it against Danzo.

As you see, the bow-shield transformed into Yata's Mirror when Sasuke needed it to.


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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 14, 2013)

Waiting for a real argument that shows how Itachi wins this.

Sasuke wins. Once both Susanoos come out, Itachi's fate is sealed as he can't get past Sasuke's Susanoo nor can he outlast him due to MS getting more blind the more its jutsu are used.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke used it against Danzo.
> 
> As you see, the bow-shield transformed into Yata's Mirror when Sasuke needed it to.



Pretty sure that was just the bow.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 14, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Pretty sure that was just the bow.



Compare the links you quoted to the actual bow-shield shape.

In fact, the first link in the post you quoted has a picture of the bow-shield in one panel and an actual shield in the second.


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## Hunter (Aug 14, 2013)

To be honest all I see is a bow shield. And it seems different than Itachi's.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 14, 2013)

Hunter said:


> To be honest all I see is a bow shield. And it seems different than Itachi's.



When Danzo's Fuuton was blocked, that's the exact shape Sasuke's shield took...


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## Bonly (Aug 14, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Enton is the overwhelming factor here, it takes Sasuke a small amount to reform it and no side effects like Itachi will get from absorbing Amaterasu. Sasuke also has a better base skill set, and I see Sasuke's Susanoo greater than Itachi's because I don't see either Susanoo attack getting through the other but Amaterasu on the other hand will hurt Itachi's Susanoo, of which Sasuke can cast multiple MSs at the same time Itachi can not.



As long as Itachi keeps up Susanoo Enton doesn't matter as it can't get through it. 



> No



Glad we agree.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 14, 2013)

Bonly said:


> As long as Itachi keeps up Susanoo Enton doesn't matter as it can't get through it.



The mirror, perhaps. But if you're talking about other parts of Susanoo, then you'd be wrong.


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## Jackashflash (Aug 14, 2013)

The uchiha are nothing but eyes.  The better eyes win.
It is that simple!


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 14, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke used an incomplete Totsuka, just as Itachi had. When Itachi showed his imperfect version, Sasuke used an Enton coated version. He used an Enton coated Totsuka to obliterate Zetsu.
> On top of that he used Yata's Mirror to block Danzo's attack. Sasuke even used Enton coated versions of the Magatama.


Scans or concede.



> So I don't see why you're turning a blind eye to Sasuke's clear feats. In fact Sasuke has shown to be a better user of the items given that he's coated two of them with Enton.


Sasuke has no feats of using legendary weapons so I absolutely have no idea what you are talking about.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 14, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He used it against a Kumo shinobi, Bee and a weaker version against Danzo. Each use performed exactly what Tsukuyomi is said to do.



Ok, let's do this.

First, the databook description of Tsukuyomi. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
User: Uchiha Itachi
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!

Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.

Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labelled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.

Captions

-An inner hell as eternal as Heaven and Earth. The grip held onto the principles of all creation thoroughly annihilates one's heart and soul!!

-The ultimate doujutsu made possible only by Mangekyou Sharingan.

Picture comments

-The moment the adversary is exposed to Mangekyou Sharingan, a strange realm as they've never seen before extends before their eyes. In there, the world's principles themselves obey the caster's beck and call.

-Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.

-Only those of Uchiha blood... Does it mean only Sasuke has a chance to break a Tsukuyomi?

-The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster's to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency.




A godly illusion with complete control of time and space. A genjutsu that takes place in an instant.

These are the key features of Tsukuyomi. Without them, any "minute detail", as you called the tear drop of Amaterasu, is relevant. Other details worth noting is that for Itachi, Amaterasu was contained in his right eye and Tsukuyomi in his left. And that every time Itachi used it, it was identified as Tsukuyomi. 

Now for starters, Sasuke's Mangekyo genjutsu has never been called Tsukuyomi. People will often point to Sasuke casting this illusion on Danzo. However, in context, the emphasis of Danzo's words is not "compared to _Itachi's_ Tsukuyomi" but rather "compared to Itachi's _Tsukuyomi_" because Danzo simply called Sasuke's illusion an illusion, without any specific name. Because of it's use of crows, it is probably a simple variation of Utakata, which Sasuke had seen. But regardless, as Danzo pointed out, there was no time manipulation present in the illusion, and Sasuke used both eyes. So it couldn't have been Tsukuyomi. I think you agree that it wasn't, but that is just the beginning.

Let's examine all the other uses of Mangekyo genjutsu by Sasuke. Sasuke uses his right eye but he does not clutch his eye afterwards. Furthermore, his genjutsu is not given a name and unlike Tsukuyomi, the subject and caster interact in real time rather than inside the subject's mind. Furthermore, it's identical to the illusion, also not identified as Tsukuyomi, cast from Sasuke's _left_ eye on Zetsu. It seems to be a simple Sharingan interrogation illusion. 

Now, against Kirabi, Sasuke used his right eye, and he was tired and did have to clutch his eye. But all he accomplished was paralyzing Kirabi and there was once again no sign of time manipulation, and was once again not called Tsukuyomi. This simply appears to be a simple paralyzing illusion. And for the record, Sasuke clutched his _left_ eye after using genjutsu on Shi. A genjutsu which left him conscious and once again had no time manipulation and also had none of the signs like the inverted color scheme that you tell me _absolutely must_ signal Tsukuyomi. 

Then against Danzo, Sasuke again used his right eye to cast an illusion on him. But he did not clutch his eye and Obito explicitly called it "a weak genjutsu" , which not only doesn't name it, but is definitely not Tsukuyomi. And all the illusion did was create a false image that his eye was still open, and did not control his sense of time except throughout that indirect trick. Your proposal has been that he used his control of Danzo's sense of time to make him believe less time had passed than it did, which made him believe Izanagi still had time on it. But what Obito actually said in that scene is Danzo can't tell how long Izanagi lasts, and doesn't have a sense for it, which is why he keeps looking at the eyes on his arm as he did right before Sasuke cast the illusion.

So let us see. Sasuke uses his right (Kumo fodder), right (Kirabi), left (Shi), both (Danzo), right (Danzo), left (Zetsu clone), and either right or both again (Itachi) when using Mangekyo genjutsu. He uses it for interrogation, paralysis, crow illusion, and false images and never uses time manipulation or places them in a world where he exhibits total control and is super duper powerful. The inverted color scheme appears against Kirabi and in flashback for the second illusion against Danzo (as opposed to every time with Itachi using Tsukuyomi), and incidentally the second time, we notice that the inverted color scheme appears in sequence right next to a close up of the Mangekyo itself, which inherently has a black and white color scheme. He clutches his eye after Kirabi and Shi only. So what I draw from this is the total lack of a pattern. And never once is what Sasuke does called Tsukuyomi. 

Now, why the clutching of the eye at all? Well that's rather simple. The Sharingan focuses chakra through the eye. The Mangekyo increases that to an extreme degree, which is why the eye goes blind in the first place. And we have known for a long time that focusing a lot of chakra to a single spot can be very hurtful to that part of the body. So Sasuke's Mangekyo genjutsu focuses a lot of chakra through one eye, but isn't Tsukuyomi. And he isn't the only one who does this. Bear in mind the first link I posted. Tsukuyomi's effects can't be canceled so if that was Tsukuyomi, Onoki wouldn't have been able to break it. 

No, Sasuke's eye powers are consistent. Amaterasu is in the left eye and Kagutsuchi is in the right. Amaterasu is in the left eye and Kagutsuchi is in the right. Amaterasu is in the left eye and Kagutsuchi is in the right. It's absolutely consistent. 

And as for the whole "Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are prerequisites for Susano'o", that was only true for Itachi, who the DB was describing before we had ever seen Sasuke's powers and perhaps before Kishi even had decided. The condition Sasuke spells out is control of the double Mangekyo, a point which he made right after it was observed that he had control of Amaterasu in his right eye and Kagutsuchi (which Shi did not know the name of) in his left. Coincidence, I'm sure. 

No, Sasuke does not have Tsukuyomi. His powers are: Amaterasu in his left eye, Kagutsuchi in his right eye, and Susano'o wielded through either and both. There isn't anything approaching adequate evidence to state that he has Tsukuyomi.


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## Cord (Aug 14, 2013)

Hunter said:


> I don't remember that, do you have a link? I remember Yata's Mirror only being unique to Itachi' Susanoo.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Scans or concede.
> 
> Sasuke has no feats of using legendary weapons so I absolutely have no idea what you are talking about.



Yeah, MS Sasuke didn't have those. The Totsuka and the Yata as explicitly stated in the manga and in the Databook are wielded only by Itachi's Susano'o. Hence Orochimaru's attempts on finding and acquiring the Totsuka were said to have failed- implying that the Totsuka which Itachi has acquired is the only one in existence. There couldn't have been any other.

There's never really an indication that Sasuke also have them nor impartial versions of them as there's nothing of the sort that was established in the manga. It also doesn't make any sense. It's just people's different interpretations of the panels involving Sasuke's Susano'o and assuming that he also have them. When those ethereal weapons are exclusive only to Itachi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 14, 2013)

@SubtleObscurantist

Interesting points, but I respectfully disagree.

Lets start with relevant bits of the databook entry:

"But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!"
" -The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster's to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency."

These two things automatically tell us that the user themselves control what happens within Tsukuyomi. As you said, Tsukuyomi users can control time within the illusion - _they_ choose how much time is compressed within the illusion. With the Kumo nin, Danzo and Killer B you can say Sasuke did just that.
With the Kumo shinobi he broke his psyche (with whatever time manipulation he felt was relevant); with Killer B he brought him down with the same time manipulation principle. Just because Sasuke doesn't announce how much time he keeps you in for, it doesn't mean he isn't manipulating time within the illusion. However with Danzo, with a weaker Tsukuyomi, he was able to alter Danzo's perception of time by a whole few seconds; as Obito stated.
*Overall:* the time manipulation is something Sasuke has shown already, more so with Danzo.

With this part, I already argue that at this point Sasuke didn't use Tsukuyomi... with the same reasoning you use: _"Sasuke used both eyes"_.

Well, actually this instance matches a description of Tsukuyomi. He used Tsukuyomi's function to control the foe. Sasuke did to the Yotsuki what Itachi wanted to do to Kabuto. Both utilised their Tsukuyomi eye.

With C, it could've simply been a very powerful base Sharingan Genjutsu. Unlike other Sharingan users, we saw Sasuke gathering chakra that in-itself suggests he likely put a bit too much chakra. Or as Obito said, it was one of the signs that Sasuke's body/chakra/power was starting to respond to his hatred. This is a valid point as this has happened twice prior Danzo. Susanoo's appearance within C's illusion validates this view; Susanoo was linked three times to Sasuke's increase in chakra quality, and that was the image used to take out C... Sasuke holding his eye made no sense till Obito let us know that his body hadn't quite adjusted to his hatred power boost, in that instance. 
Still not convinced? Well, by the Danzo battle Sasuke's body had adjusted to the power boost (unlike with C hence the clutching of the eye) insofar that he could use normal Genjutsu to do what Itachi can with Tsukuyomi.
*Bottom line:* the reason Sasuke clutched his eye against C isn't the same reason he clutched his eye against Bee, as I'll explain further on.

With Bee, he clutched his eye because he used Tsukuyomi. We both agree that the inverted panels alongside a Mangekyou Sharingan indicate Tsukuyomi. As we know with Itachi, when Tsukuyomi lands it is instant and when it is broken it is also instant; Kakashi also kneeled the moment Tsukuyomi hit him.
When Tsukuyomi is broken, the user holds their Tsukuyomi eye shortly after, hence Zetsu knew Sasuke got out.
Sasuke checked all the boxes, from the instant illusion, to the eye contact, to the inverted panel coupled with a MS and even the detail of holding his eye when the illusion broke. 
Unlike Itachi's case, Sasuke had to deal with a Jinchuriki whom we know are very fast in their Bijuu states... he got hit the moment the illusion broke.
*Bottom line:* there are too many key details for us to ignore to say Sasuke _didn't_ use Tsukuyomi. 

With Danzo, Sasuke only showed he can even used a watered down Tsukuyomi, something Itachi has never shown the ability to be able to do. 
In response to why Izanagi failed, Obito quoted Danzo's own words regarding Itachi's Tsukuyomi. Sasuke used Tsukuyomi, albeit a weakened version as Obito further explained. Guess what, upon reflecting on that particular illusion we got the Tsukuyomi indicators: the relevant MS with inverted panels.

Sasuke's powers are consistent indeed, Kagutsuchi comes from his left and Amaterasu from the right eye. However we cannot ignore that three times thus far Tsukuyomi has come from his left eye too. That too is also *absolutely* consistent.

From my observation, the whole "it isn't Tsukuyomi" comes from the idea that people cannot fathom that Tsukuyomi can be broken. That is a poor reason to say it isn't Tsukuyomi, so just because a mini-databook said Shinra Tensei is a godly technique that repels all, I should assume that everything will be repelled by it? Ignoring that's how it was *at that point in the story*?

Food for thought: Sasuke used Tsukuyomi from his left eye and Amaterasu from his right eye... The exact same eyes where Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu were born from in Shinto myth.
_"In the cleansing rite after his return, he begot Amaterasu (the sun goddess) from his left eye, Tsukuyomi (the moon god) from his right eye"​_[]

So, one key reason I think Sasuke takes this fight is because he's got the same MS jutsu his brother does. However he was able to take them all to the next level; he can use dumbed down Tsukuyomi (as shown with Danzo) and he can manipulate the Amaterasu flames (Kagutsuchi). I said he took them _all_ to the next level; Sasuke can actually coat his Susanoo items with Enton, unlike his brother.

If that doesn't make Sasuke a more advanced MS user, then I dunno what does.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 14, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Yeah, MS Sasuke didn't have those. The Totsuka and the Yata as explicitly stated in the manga and in the Databook are wielded only by Itachi's Susano'o. Hence Orochimaru's attempts on finding and acquiring the Totsuka were said to have failed- implying that the Totsuka which Itachi has acquired is the only one in existence. There couldn't have been any other.
> 
> There's never really an indication that Sasuke also have them nor impartial versions of them as there's nothing of the sort that was established in the manga. It also doesn't make any sense. It's just people's different interpretations of the panels involving Sasuke's Susano'o and assuming that he also have them. When those ethereal weapons are exclusive only to Itachi.



The manga and databook never said _only_ Itachi's Susanoo. It said just Susanoo. 
The databook implies Orochimaru could never find the items as he lacked the ocular powers to obtain them. Of course there is a chance that the Susanoo jutsu's items are simply replications of the actual items. Much like how Obito's Rikudou staff is a replication of the actual Rikudou Sennin's staff.

Actually what is established in the manga is Sasuke used the shield (already given the scans; its up to the people who see the links if they want to acknowledge the _clear_ shape difference between the shield before and when it blocked Danzo's attack) and as for the sword, Sasuke already used an imperfect version alone, then an Enton coated version alongside Itachi using his uncoated imperfect version.
Then once more, an Enton coated Totsuka whose stab art is identical to Itachi's uncoated Totsuka's stab art.

*Nothing* (not the manga, nor the databook) has ever said those items are exclusive to Itachi. Only posters have ever said that.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 14, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> These two things automatically tell us that the user themselves control what happens within Tsukuyomi. As you said, Tsukuyomi users can control time within the illusion - _they_ choose how much time is compressed within the illusion. With the Kumo nin, Danzo and Killer B you can say Sasuke did just that.
> With the Kumo shinobi he broke his psyche (with whatever time manipulation he felt was relevant); with Killer B he brought him down with the same time manipulation principle. Just because Sasuke doesn't announce how much time he keeps you in for, it doesn't mean he isn't manipulating time within the illusion. However with Danzo, with a weaker Tsukuyomi, he was able to alter Danzo's perception of time by a whole few seconds; as Obito stated.
> *Overall:* the time manipulation is something Sasuke has shown already, more so with Danzo.



There was no evidence of time manipulation in any of those cases. You can't say "well, there was because it was Tsukuyomi" when what you are trying to establish is that he used Tsukuyomi. And I already showed that your interpretation of his use of genjutsu against Danzo was not time manipulation, because as Obito pointed out, Danzo is not aware of how long Izanagi lasts. He relies upon visually checking the eye to see if it is open. Sasuke just created a simple, weak visual illusion. Your interpretation would only make sense if Danzo was aware of how long Izanagi lasted, and Sasuke then shortened his perception of time to make a longer time seem like a shorter time. But Obito explicitly tells us that Danzo has no such perception. 

Your point, at that juncture, is utterly destroyed.


> Well, actually this instance matches a description of Tsukuyomi. He used Tsukuyomi's function to control the foe. Sasuke did to the Yotsuki what Itachi wanted to do to Kabuto. Both utilised their Tsukuyomi eye


.

Obito and Madara are capable of the same thing. Heck, Sasuke controlled Manda with his regular Sharingan. Itachi is known for being able to control people. That isn't a function of Tsukuyomi. I went to lengths in my previous post to show how other people do this. Please don't just say "I disagree" and then move on to repeat a point that I just addressed as if I didn't address it. 


> With C, it could've simply been a very powerful base Sharingan Genjutsu. Unlike other Sharingan users, we saw Sasuke gathering chakra that in-itself suggests he likely put a bit too much chakra. Or as Obito said, it was one of the signs that Sasuke's body/chakra/power was starting to respond to his hatred. This is a valid point as this has happened twice prior Danzo. Susanoo's appearance within C's illusion validates this view; Susanoo was linked three times to Sasuke's increase in chakra quality, and that was the image used to take out C... Sasuke holding his eye made no sense till Obito let us know that his body hadn't quite adjusted to his hatred power boost, in that instance.
> Still not convinced? Well, by the Danzo battle Sasuke's body had adjusted to the power boost (unlike with C hence the clutching of the eye) insofar that he could use normal Genjutsu to do what Itachi can with Tsukuyomi.
> *Bottom line:* the reason Sasuke clutched his eye against C isn't the same reason he clutched his eye against Bee, as I'll explain further on.



Possible, but it means that clutching the eye cannot be considered a valid sign for Tsukuyomi, since only in the instance against Kirabi and the instance against Shi did it ever happen. If your reasons for thinking it is Tsukuyomi aren't at all consistent, then you actually have no valid reason to think it is Tsukuyomi. The clutching is inconsistent. The eye is inconsistent, even if you subtract Shi, because Sasuke used his left eye and not his right eye (which he used in all the other instances you identify as Tsukuyomi) to use the same genjutsu he used on the Kumo fodder against Zetsu. The coloring is inconsistent. The effects are inconsistent. The power is inconsistent.

Absolutely nothing about the instances of genjutsu Sasuke used formed a consistent pattern for you to argue from. And I have gone over this in my last post, so again, stop ignoring points. 


> With Bee, he clutched his eye because he used Tsukuyomi. We both agree that the inverted panels alongside a Mangekyou Sharingan indicate Tsukuyomi. As we know with Itachi, when Tsukuyomi lands it is instant and when it is broken it is also instant; Kakashi also kneeled the moment Tsukuyomi hit him.
> When Tsukuyomi is broken, the user holds their Tsukuyomi eye shortly after, hence Zetsu knew Sasuke got out.
> Sasuke checked all the boxes, from the instant illusion, to the eye contact, to the inverted panel coupled with a MS and even the detail of holding his eye when the illusion broke.
> Unlike Itachi's case, Sasuke had to deal with a Jinchuriki whom we know are very fast in their Bijuu states... he got hit the moment the illusion broke.
> *Bottom line:* there are too many key details for us to ignore to say Sasuke _didn't_ use Tsukuyomi



This is your only good example that could have been Tsukuyomi. But there are problems.

Tsukuyomi is instant. Kirabi did not break the illusion until after he landed on the ground, which means time passed. Tsukuyomi has never been used by Itachi to be non instant and there would be no good reason to except in a situation like against Danzo, and before you say, "but Sasuke did!", that isn't a fair argument because we are trying to analyze your best example independently in order to establish if there is merit to your wider case. You have to isolate this example and show that it was Tsukuyomi 

And the burden of proof is undeniably on you because Itachi was always identified as using Tsukuyomi and Sasuke was never said to be using Tsukuyomi. This clear, straight forward, and hard to rationalize distinction makes the entirety of the case entirely on your shoulders. I already took it upon myself to address every last one of your other points, so that means you have to show, beyond reasonable doubt, that this is Tsukuyomi. And Danzo and Obito have both agreed that Sasuke can't control time (Obito's comment after Izanagi being defeated just confirmed what Danzo said, since he didn't compliment Sasuke for his skill with genjutsu, calling it weak, but rather the fact he used his mind and trickery to replicate the effects of Tsukuyomi without being able to use it). 


> Sasuke's powers are consistent indeed, Kagutsuchi comes from his left and Amaterasu from the right eye. However we cannot ignore that three times thus far Tsukuyomi has come from his left eye too. That too is also *absolutely* consistent.



Wrong. Absolutely, unequivocally wrong. Sasuke used genjutsu from his left eye only against Shi and Zetsu. The other times it came from his right or from both eyes. Oh and you said Amaterasu came from Sasuke's right eye. Again, you are just dead wrong. It comes from the left. I am actually rather convinced that either you glossed over my post without reading it, or you just ignored it's content and simply substituted what you had already decided to believe. It is things like this, which are irredeemable factual errors on your part, that most convince me that it is my interpretation which is accurate and correct. 


> From my observation, the whole "it isn't Tsukuyomi" comes from the idea that people cannot fathom that Tsukuyomi can be broken. That is a poor reason to say it isn't Tsukuyomi



Of course Tsukuyomi can be broken. Sasuke broke it. But the burden of proof is, and has always been on your side to prove that Sasuke is using a jutsu that has been named whenever the sole confirmed user uses it but has never been identified with Sasuke. And I have never seen any evidence that he is using it. This remains after your point, which mostly ignored all my own. If I were to psychoanalyze your position, it would seem to me that this is just part of a larger pattern to give Sasuke all of Itachi's abilities like Yata, Totsuka, and Tsukuyomi when Sasuke was never identified with them and call Kagutsuchi just an amped up Amaterasu despite clear distinctions as separate but not necessarily unequal jutsu so you can call him the superior MS user either to hype up Sasuke or downplay  Itachi. Of course, I wouldn't allow my belief that you are just biased to lead me to ignore your points like you ignore mine. No, it's actually your tendency to completely miss tons of relevant facts that leads me to believe you are utterly and completely off base and out of touch in believing Sasuke has Tsukuyomi.


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

sasuke walks over itachi corpse. Tskuyomi is the only genjutsu GG that can happen. Base genjutsu wont do much to sasuke. Enton variations would put itachi in a world of hurt 
also sasuke spams amaterasu with alot more ease. So sasuke wins, dont think the 2 can be compared at this point 
despite itachi being smarter. it doesnt save him from amaterasu GG off the bat. Something sasuke can easily resort to. 

edit: tskuyomi might not be instant GG for sasuke yet we know itachi can neither avoid or survive amaterasu from sasuke


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## Sadgoob (Aug 14, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Nothing* (not the manga, nor the databook) has ever said those items are exclusive to Itachi. Only posters have ever said that.



"Itachi you had it all along?"

"That's another items, I'm sure of it."

If Sasuke has them, it's because he has Itachi's eyes. 

The two items hyped in the databook are unique.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 14, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> "Itachi you had it all along?"
> 
> "That's another items, I'm sure of it."
> 
> ...



Orochimaru just said Itachi had the items. The databook confirmed it is because those are items that come with the Susanoo.

Ah, yes now you've already formed another cop-out when Sasuke shows the items again... "but... he has Itachi's eyes". 
Never mind the fact Sasuke showed an imperfect Totsuka, Magatama and the shield prior getting the EMS.

The databook says the items are unique, to the Susanoo jutsu not Itachi.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 14, 2013)

Sasuke did use a genjutsu where he clutched his eye afterwards.

 Remember Sasuke's use of genjutsu on Killer Bee?


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## Marsala (Aug 14, 2013)

Even if Sasuke can escape Izanami, the moments between falling into it and realizing that he is trapped in it may create an opening for Itachi to hit him physically. On the other hand, Sasuke may be able to avoid a repeating situation that triggers it.

So slight advantage to Sasuke overall. Itachi is still more dangerous to people who aren't all but immune to visual genjutsu.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 14, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> There was no evidence of time manipulation in any of those cases. You can't say "well, there was because it was Tsukuyomi" when what you are trying to establish is that he used Tsukuyomi. And I already showed that your interpretation of his use of genjutsu against Danzo was not time manipulation, because as Obito pointed out, Danzo is not aware of how long Izanagi lasts. He relies upon visually checking the eye to see if it is open. Sasuke just created a simple, weak visual illusion. Your interpretation would only make sense if Danzo was aware of how long Izanagi lasted, and Sasuke then shortened his perception of time to make a longer time seem like a shorter time. But Obito explicitly tells us that Danzo has no such perception.
> 
> Your point, at that juncture, is utterly destroyed.



Again, you rely on someone announcing the amount of time within the illusion out loud for your counterargument here. It doesn't change the very straightforward fact: we got the relevant MS; we got the relevant Tsukuyomi functions; we got the relevant Tsukuyomi artwork. You're heavily relying on a mere name. 
Whenever Naruto doesn't say the name 'Rasengan', but uses it, should I assume it isn't Rasengan because he hasn't said its name despite it acting exactly like Rasengan?

Also check out the actual fight before drawing conclusions, Danzo knew exactly how much time Izanagi lasts. He just wasn't conscious of the time.



> Obito and Madara are capable of the same thing. Heck, Sasuke controlled Manda with his regular Sharingan. Itachi is known for being able to control people. That isn't a function of Tsukuyomi. I went to lengths in my previous post to show how other people do this. Please don't just say "I disagree" and then move on to repeat a point that I just addressed as if I didn't address it.



Obito and Madara can do the same thing with their base Sharingan for the same reason Sasuke can accomplish the same with his base Sharingan: the hatred factor. However apparently against the likes of Kabuto, the base Sharingan doesn't suffice; or an Uchiha whose weaker than Sasuke, Obito and Madara can't accomplish what those three can. 
Read the link I posted when I mentioned Tsukuyomi's controlling function; Itachi outlined it as one of Tsukuyomi's functions. So for foes like Kabuto, the controlling business works only by using Tsukuyomi.


> Possible, but it means that clutching the eye cannot be considered a valid sign for Tsukuyomi, since only in the instance against Kirabi and the instance against Shi did it ever happen. If your reasons for thinking it is Tsukuyomi aren't at all consistent, then you actually have no valid reason to think it is Tsukuyomi. The clutching is inconsistent. The eye is inconsistent, even if you subtract Shi, because Sasuke used his left eye and not his right eye (which he used in all the other instances you identify as Tsukuyomi) to use the same genjutsu he used on the Kumo fodder against Zetsu. The coloring is inconsistent. The effects are inconsistent. The power is inconsistent.
> 
> Absolutely nothing about the instances of genjutsu Sasuke used formed a consistent pattern for you to argue from. And I have gone over this in my last post, so again, stop ignoring points.



Clutching his eye isn't a valid sign; clutching his eye when his illusion fails, however, *is* a valid sign that he used Tsukuyomi.

There is consistency: two Uchiha (Sasuke-Itachi) try to use Tsukuyomi and fail, upon failing they clutch their Tsukuyomi eye.

The C example isn't a valid counterpoint as it was actually the base Sharingan used for it, not the Mangekyou. At most, you can argue that Sasuke can use Madara/Obito level Genjutsu with his basic Sharingan. Without the MS, or the inverted panels, you cannot assert it was at all similar to what happened to B. In terms of considering them the same illusion.

Kishimoto is consistent, when a Tsukuyomi eye instantly hits a foe he uses the relevant MS eye to represent it, alongside the relevant artwork. Anything other than that has always been written as normal Genjutsu. Don't just make an assertion like "he clutched both times, ergo he didn't use Tsukuyomi the first time", when you're only fixating on *one* similarity. All while failing to differentiate the actual distinctions such as the relevant ocular power (MS) and artwork (inverted panels). If you did, you'd see that your C comparison is invalid.

I'm not ignoring your points, I just don't think you made a particularly good case to sway me. 



> This is your only good example that could have been Tsukuyomi. But there are problems.
> 
> Tsukuyomi is instant. Kirabi did not break the illusion until after he landed on the ground, which means time passed. Tsukuyomi has never been used by Itachi to be non instant and there would be no good reason to except in a situation like against Danzo, and before you say, "but Sasuke did!", that isn't a fair argument because we are trying to analyze your best example independently in order to establish if there is merit to your wider case. You have to isolate this example and show that it was Tsukuyomi
> 
> And the burden of proof is undeniably on you because Itachi was always identified as using Tsukuyomi and Sasuke was never said to be using Tsukuyomi. This clear, straight forward, and hard to rationalize distinction makes the entirety of the case entirely on your shoulders. I already took it upon myself to address every last one of your other points, so that means you have to show, beyond reasonable doubt, that this is Tsukuyomi. And Danzo and Obito have both agreed that Sasuke can't control time (Obito's comment after Izanagi being defeated just confirmed what Danzo said, since he didn't compliment Sasuke for his skill with genjutsu, calling it weak, but rather the fact he used his mind and trickery to replicate the effects of Tsukuyomi without being able to use it).




Tsukuyomi is instant but we've seen twice now that it can be broken. Sasuke did it the first time despite the instant nature; Killer B did the second.
Furthermore Tsunade was able to undo whatever effect Tsukuyomi had on Kakashi and Sasuke, so recuperating after Tsukuyomi lands is possible. 

To be honest the actual artwork speaks for itself that its Tsukuyomi, emphasis on the MS eye followed by the inverted artwork. *That* should make it clear. 
Danzo said Sasuke cannot control time with normal Genjutsu and Obito just said Sasuke used a weak Genjutsu which couldn't control time as well as Itachi's use of Tsukuyomi... however we know that isn't a reflection of Sasuke's Tsukuyomi skill given he produced an identical result as Itachi when he case it on B. Except Sasuke was matched against a foe capable of combating the effects.

From the looks of it despite the artwork indicating its Tsukuyomi, you're hinging on a name. So I guess this isn't Rasengan; it wasn't named.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 14, 2013)

> Wrong. Absolutely, unequivocally wrong. Sasuke used genjutsu from his left eye only against Shi and Zetsu. The other times it came from his right or from both eyes. Oh and you said Amaterasu came from Sasuke's right eye. Again, you are just dead wrong. It comes from the left. I am actually rather convinced that either you glossed over my post without reading it, or you just ignored it's content and simply substituted what you had already decided to believe. It is things like this, which are irredeemable factual errors on your part, that most convince me that it is my interpretation which is accurate and correct.



You're missing the key point that shows the Shi/Zetsu examples don't do anything to the argument that he used Tsukuyomi. Hint: it lacks inverted colours. Though you should also know he used the _base_ Sharingan on C (so it has no place in an argument where I'm asserting something about Sasuke's MS). Regarding Zetsu, Sasuke already clearly noted he used a normal Genjutsu, just like the one Madara used with his _base_ Sharingan. 

If Sasuke used a MS Genjutsu, you'd have a leg to stand on with these points; if these examples showed inverted panels like these, then you'd have a point to stand on.

Instead it looks like you're using loosely similarities across panels to try to say Sasuke does not have Tsukuyomi. Whilst hinging on a small detail like a name.



> Of course Tsukuyomi can be broken. Sasuke broke it. But the burden of proof is, and has always been on your side to prove that Sasuke is using a jutsu that has been named whenever the sole confirmed user uses it but has never been identified with Sasuke. And I have never seen any evidence that he is using it. This remains after your point, which mostly ignored all my own. If I were to psychoanalyze your position, it would seem to me that this is just part of a larger pattern to give Sasuke all of Itachi's abilities like Yata, Totsuka, and Tsukuyomi when Sasuke was never identified with them and call Kagutsuchi just an amped up Amaterasu despite clear distinctions as separate but not necessarily unequal jutsu so you can call him the superior MS user either to hype up Sasuke or downplay  Itachi. Of course, I wouldn't allow my belief that you are just biased to lead me to ignore your points like you ignore mine. No, it's actually your tendency to completely miss tons of relevant facts that leads me to believe you are utterly and completely off base and out of touch in believing Sasuke has Tsukuyomi.



Let me make my point clearer. From the moment that chapter was released there those who said it wasn't Tsukuyomi simply because a non-Uchiha got out of it with a very normal method. That's why I tend to find it hard to take the "it wasn't Tsukuyomi point" very seriously.

I've read your points, however I merely felt your examples and counter points didn't fit. For instance with the C example, we've got sources already saying Sasuke's body was in the process of adjusting to his new power hence the extra toll on his eye; not at all linked to the MS for the sole reason that he didn't even use the MS. 

The Zetsu point, the particular Genjutsu that Sasuke used was already established as a base Sharingan Genjutsu. 

As for my initial three examples {Killer B, Kumo nin and Danzo}: I cannot emphasis enough how the descriptions and artwork *clearly* indicate that it is Tsukuyomi. Except you rely on an outdated version of Tsukuyomi's 'instant' effect, despite Sasuke disproving it. Despite Itachi saying he'd control Kabuto *while* he's under Tsukuyomi (indicating it is an on going jutsu, hence Tsunade used a normal method to get Sasuke/Kakashi out of its effect).

However for me the most outrageous point you're using is the name factor.
If I go by "despite two jutsu being exactly the same, they're not the same unless they're named" notion you're doing, then I'm going to be saying the following:

This isn't Rasengan
This isn't Raikiri
This isn't Kamui
This isn't Kamui, either
This isn't Banshou Tenin
These aren't Perfect Susanoo and Mokujin no Jutsu
This isn't Bijuu-Dama

Despite the lack of names, how do I know they are actually the jutsu I named? That's right: *the clear artwork*.


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

sasuke has tskuyomi i agree with O'brian on this 
the artwork is too similar, the name doesnt need to be said for us to know its tskuyomi 
sasuke has used MS genjutsu 3 times, each time the art work was identical to tskuyomi 
meanwhile other genjutsu's dont have that art work. That is an indication people. Perhaps sasuke intends to rename it the same way he calls his jutsu chidori instead of raikiri, hence why kishi hasnt out right written tskuyomi.


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## Cord (Aug 14, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The manga and databook never said _only_ Itachi's Susanoo. It said just Susanoo.



The databook entry of Susano'o may generally (not the entirety of it) be referring to Itachi's, seeing that he's the only one so far whom we've seen awaken that ocular power at the time where such entry was written. It's only natural that the author would base the major characteristics of Susano'o on what he's established so far. But the DB may not be necessarily referring to Susano'o in general as the weapons and other arsenals are supposed to be the distinguishing facets among Mangekyo users who have awakened Susano'o. Surely, the Susano'o that either Sasuke and Madara will wield has not been set to stone when Kishimoto wrote that entry for such ocular power. The more reason to think that the specifics are only referring to Itachi's.

An example of this is the entry for Tsukuyomi which states that _it's a prerequisite in awakening Susano'o_- which could've been referring only to Itachi once again. As I'm also one of those who believe that Sasuke .

We might be having a revised data book entry of those jutsus which would hopefully clear these things up.



> The databook implies Orochimaru could never find the items as he lacked the ocular powers to obtain them.



But I'd agree with this.



> Of course there is a chance that the Susanoo jutsu's items are simply replications of the actual items. Much like how Obito's Rikudou staff is a replication of the actual Rikudou Sennin's staff. Actually what is established in the manga is Sasuke used the shield (already given the scans; its up to the people who see the links if they want to acknowledge the _clear_ shape difference between the shield before and when it blocked Danzo's attack) and as for the sword, Sasuke already used an imperfect version alone, then an Enton coated version alongside Itachi using his uncoated imperfect version.



I have seen all the scans that you provided, but I just don't see how they can also be referenced as the Yata Mirror and Totsuka, respectively and that they're not actually just Sasuke's normal bow and shield (with upgraded versions). The actual shape of the bow shield that you gave to KeyofMiracles, looked pretty vague to me considering that the weapon was not even drawn in its entirety: just a part of it. But if there's indeed any difference in shape or form of the bowshield, it can be attributed to Susano'o upsizing it to greater size rather than it necessarily transforming to "Yata Mirror". Just like how Susano'o itself can upgrade its version from ribcage to incomplete and finally to a complete one.

The "Totsuka" that Sasuke's Susano'o held on the Kage Summit looked pretty similar to the enton coated bow that he used against Kakashi.

And most importantly, Sasuke's Susano'o weapons weren't actually and outright referred to as the same ethereal weapons that Itachi wields. I mean, if Sasuke also have those, wouldn't the author be clear on that? Like providing any manga statement to show the readers that those weapons are not really exclusive to Itachi's Susano'o? Considering that Zetsu's statements and the DB gives the readers an impression that these weapons are indeed exclusive to Itachi.



> Then once more, an Enton coated Totsuka whose stab art is identical to Itachi's uncoated Totsuka's stab art.



These are the only clear comparison that you've given to me. But I still can't accept this scan as an evidence to justify MS Sasuke wielding those weapons nor any scan involving an EMS Sasuke- who may have possibly already inherited Itachi's ethereal weapons after he transplanted his brother's eyes unto him. And which are yet to be confirmed in the succeeding chapters once Sasuke is given more feats.



> *Nothing* (not the manga, nor the databook) has ever said those items are exclusive to Itachi. Only posters have ever said that.



Right. Just like how only posters say that MS Sasuke also had the Totsuka and Yata and assume that the Databook speaks generally of all Susano'o wielders. Would that also mean that Madara has the Yata and Totsuka?


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 14, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Again, you rely on someone announcing the amount of time within the illusion out loud for your counterargument here. It doesn't change the very straightforward fact: we got the relevant MS; we got the relevant Tsukuyomi functions; we got the relevant Tsukuyomi artwork. You're heavily relying on a mere name.
> Whenever Naruto doesn't say the name 'Rasengan', but uses it, should I assume it isn't Rasengan because he hasn't said its name despite it acting exactly like Rasengan?



If Rasengan had a more ambiguous nature, such that the exact functions and patterns that could be debated, and it was never called that, but it was always called that for Minato for and Jiraiya, you would have made a good analogy. However, your analogy is absolutely horrible. You are just clouding the issue, which I am sure you are aware of. It was never called Tsukuyomi. It was always called Tsukuyomi for Itachi. And no, the details aren't consistent until you decided to interpret them that way.


> Also check out the actual fight before drawing conclusions, Danzo knew exactly how much time Izanagi lasts. He just wasn't conscious of the time.



More obfuscation. His consciousness of time is what I have been talking about and you know it.


> Obito and Madara can do the same thing with their base Sharingan for the same reason Sasuke can accomplish the same with his base Sharingan: the hatred factor.



A point you simply made up. Sharingan control has never been associated with the MS or hatred. It's just a genjutsu that can vary in power based on those factors or like with Tsukuyomi, by manipulating time to give the caster more time to break down the mind of the opponent. I suppose Sasuke needed that just for a simple fodder nin and Zetsu? Lol, that would mean that even if he had Tsukuyomi, it would be like heaven and earth compared to Itachi.


> Clutching his eye isn't a valid sign; clutching his eye when his illusion fails, however, *is* a valid sign that he used Tsukuyomi.
> 
> There is consistency: two Uchiha (Sasuke-Itachi) try to use Tsukuyomi and fail, upon failing they clutch their Tsukuyomi eye.



It didn't fail until after Kirabi landed or else Sasuke would have been aware of it breaking. He signaled no such awareness since Kirabi surprised him with his attack. Unless you think Sasuke, who has seen Tsukuyomi defeated before at his own hands, wouldn't have known it was broken. 

No, the truth is that he clutched his eye before Kirabi broke the illusion. So that isn't consistent with Tsukuyomi. His eye was just burned out like it was against Shi.


> The C example isn't a valid counterpoint as it was actually the base Sharingan used for it, not the Mangekyo.



We don't know what was used. 


> Tsukuyomi is instant but we've seen twice now that it can be broken. Sasuke did it the first time despite the instant nature; Killer B did the second.
> Furthermore Tsunade was able to undo whatever effect Tsukuyomi had on Kakashi and Sasuke, so recuperating after Tsukuyomi lands is possible.



Cool. Not on topic. Just you repeating your "Tsukuyomi isn't omnipotent" ad nauseum as if the debate is about that. 


> To be honest the actual artwork speaks for itself that its Tsukuyomi, emphasis on the MS eye followed by the inverted artwork. *That* should make it clear.



MS eye isn't important since I showed MS eye is used for non Tsukuyomi and even with Sasuke which eye he uses for genjutsu isn't consistent. I don't think the artwork matters when the effects were simply paralysis with no sign of time manipulation. There was nothing about the illusion that said Tsukuyomi, but you focus on the artwork. Which is worse than focusing on the illusion never being named Tsukuyomi not even once. Plus you have now ascribed two different MS powers to the same eye. Since when is that a thing? Right, since you decided to give Sasuke new abilities he has never been identified with. Not even once. 


> Obito just said Sasuke used a weak Genjutsu which couldn't control time as well as Itachi's use of Tsukuyomi...



No, he never said Sasuke controlled time. I have thoroughly addressed this. Sasuke just made it look like the eye was open when it wasn't. A basic visual genjutsu, worthy of being called weak. Controlling Danzo's perception of time to fool him would imply he was consciously aware of when the eyes closed without looking at them meaning he was keeping track of time. Obito said he wasn't and we know he wasn't because that's how Sasuke realized his weak point in the first place.


> identical result as Itachi when he case it on B.



No similarity in results whatsoever, you mean. Notice that when Sasuke came out of the illusion, he was still feeling the sensation of his eye having been stolen in the illusion. There is no indication at all that the sensation of being pierced through many different ways by spears even registered for Kirabi, and he showed no sign of it coming out. Sure, "he's just that tough", but that still means you are missing evidence of the same effect.


> You're missing the key point that shows the Shi/Zetsu examples don't do anything to the argument that he used Tsukuyomi. Hint: it lacks inverted colours.



It lacked inverted colors against the Kumo nin too...wait a second, we never actually see what Kumo nin or Zetsu experienced from their side did we? No, we didn't. And you know it.





> Regarding Zetsu, Sasuke already clearly noted he used a normal Genjutsu



He noted no such thing. Kishi merely emphasized he was using the Sharingan. And it's identical to what he did to the Kumo nin. Oh and I notice that below this, in a part that doesn't need quoting, you said he was using base Sharingan genjutsu. This is how I can tell your are downplaying my points without addressing them, because you are either saying he used his base Sharingan, which is false, or you are using language deliberately evocative of weak or normal when in fact we have no idea what illusion he used. Just like we never see any of his genjutsu named. Because they aren't special. Special techniques always get named at some point if used enough by major characters.


> Whilst hinging on a small detail like a name.



Your entire argument is about smaller details. I have shown the mechanics aren't the same, I have shown the MS eye isn't consistent, and I have the name point. You have the artwork. In exactly two cases. 


> we've got sources already saying Sasuke's body was in the process of adjusting to his new power hence the extra toll on his eye



Which is why using Sharingan prediction, and Mangekyo jutsu did more than their normal share of strain against Ei, right? Oh wait....that didn't happen.

The rest of your post is just you using your-worst-analogy-I-have-seen-in-awhile-ridiculous-strawman so I will ignore it what it is: a red herring of no value in debate.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 14, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> sasuke has tskuyomi i agree with O'brian on this
> the artwork is too similar, the name doesnt need to be said for us to know its tskuyomi
> sasuke has used MS genjutsu 3 times, each time the art work was identical to tskuyomi
> meanwhile other genjutsu's dont have that art work. That is an indication people. Perhaps sasuke intends to rename it the same way he calls his jutsu chidori instead of raikiri, hence why kishi hasnt out right written tskuyomi.



Sasuke doesn't have time manipulation. Genjutsu without time manipulation is not Tsukuyomi, no? Or was Tsukuyomi defined by inverted colors somewhere, even though Itachi's Tsukuyomi doesn't always have inverted colors?​


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## IchLiebe (Aug 15, 2013)

Hunter said:


> Somehow I think Itachi knew Sasuke would use that technique, I don't have any evidence but I doubt he would kill the very brother he would was planning to die for.


 Somehow I believe that to be bullshit. Itachi wasn't spying on Sasuke and Sasuke never used that technique before this battle. So its ridiculous for Itachi would hope that Sasuke could still fight and live while his legs and bottom torso were incinerated, much less for him to recuperate in a small time frame to keep fighting Itachi. I see that fight as Itachi testing Sasuke to see if Sasuke had what it takes to fight Tobi, and if he didn't Itachi would have to take the EMS and fight Tobi.





> You could be right, Kakashi was evenly matched from the start with Itachi, but was soon taken out Tsukuyomi.


 I know Im right about that. Hebi Sasuke>Base Itachi, MS Itachi>Hebi Sasuke...well what in those two scenarios have changed...correct, Itachi got MS. What in Itachi base skill set can kill? Kunai and shuriken-not even meant to kill, genjutsu-can't kill and against high caliber opponets useless, Katon- Mabye, but its big and slow. Exploding bunshin-weak..





> Bear in mind we're talking about a weaken Itachi here, and amped up Sasuke with curse seal and Orochimaru abilities.   Base wise, Hebi Sasuke does seem more impressive I agree, but he's no wear near intelligent as Itachi is.


Bear in mind we are talking about alive Itachi here. Even in Konoha after a few MS usages he was being carried by Kisame. Itachi is weak therefore he is always weakened to a point. What puts Itachi's intelligence above Sasuke's. What? I can't find it. Destroying CT? An idiot could've came up with that, a ragin kyuubi defeated it alone. Sasuke uses tricks and is more devious such as when he tricked Danzo, one of the most experienced ninjas there was and one of the most powerful and yet Sasuke got him with a genjutsu without Danzo even noticing and that won it for Sasuke...Do I need to continue because I can continue to show just how dumb Itachi really is.





> I don't think so in my opinion. Totsuka Blade is a blade that seals as oppose to the Enton which incinerates it's foes. Someone like Orochimaru would be able to bypass it's skin shedding techniques whereas Totsuka will seal Orochimaru.


 Totsuka must impale, start sealing, continue sealing, and finish sealing. Someone can break out, Orochimaru didn't because he thought it was just a chakra blade.





> Enton blade also has no Susanoo busting feats as well.


 But its a continuous attack unless Totsuka which hits reflected hits again. Enton blade, hits leaves flames hits leaves flames.





> I didn't say Totsuka is a legendary weapon, I said it was a supernatural weapon which makes Itachi's Susanoo unique due to having those items.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Lawrence777 (Aug 15, 2013)

The way I see it I don't think all Tsukiyomi used necesarily manipulate time. So they don't _all_ manipulate time, but Tsukiyomi is the only genjutsu that has the _potential_ to manipulate time if the user is skilled enough.

Itachi didn't seem to use time dilation when he used it on Sasuke during the Kabuto fight. His very first Tsukiyomi he used on child sasuke didn't seem to use time manipulation either.

That being said, I don't think Sasuke has Tsukiyomi. I think his 2 ms jutsu are Enton and Amaterasu.


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## Elite Uchiha (Aug 15, 2013)

Remember when people argued Amatseru was instant because the DB stated it was


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## SaiST (Aug 15, 2013)

Sasuke, 'cause of the superior Doujutsu, and use of Enton.

Curse Cordelia and SubtleObscurantist for luring me here.



IchLiebe said:


> Where is it stated that Time manipulation is part of Tsukuyomi?


When did you start thinking it wasn't? 

Nobody questioned that Tsukuyomi's ability to _"compress"_ time into a minuscule instant was what allowed it's effects to instantly take hold of the enemy, or made it impossible to dispel by conventional means *before* Sasuke cast that binding Genjutsu on Killer B. Were it not for the inverted colors, or the prerequisites for Susanoo in the 3rd Databook(that so many take as an all-encompassing description of what is required, and what comes about of any example of Susanoo), I doubt anybody would have questioned it at all. 

What separates Tsukuyomi from any other powerful Sharingan Genjutsu otherwise?

*Anyways*, since this is _"*EMS* Sasuke vs Itachi"_ you guys're talking about, let's just presume that Sasuke is capable of casting Tsukuyomi now, since he has Itachi's eyes.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke used an incomplete Totsuka, just as Itachi had. When Itachi showed his imperfect version, Sasuke used an Enton coated version. He used an Enton coated Totsuka to obliterate Zetsu.
> On top of that he used Yata's Mirror to block Danzo's attack. Sasuke even used Enton coated versions of the Magatama.
> 
> So I don't see why you're turning a blind eye to Sasuke's clear feats. In fact Sasuke has shown to be a better user of the items given that he's coated two of them with Enton.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 15, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Remember when people argued Amatseru was instant because the DB stated it was



I still see people argue that it isn't instant despite the manga saying it is.


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## Jak N Blak (Aug 15, 2013)

LOLZ. Itachi threads


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## IchLiebe (Aug 15, 2013)

SaiST said:


> When did you start thinking it wasn't?


 When Danzo stated it clear as day.





> Nobody questioned that Tsukuyomi's ability to _"compress"_ time into a minuscule instant was what allowed it's effects to instantly take hold of the enemy, or made it impossible to dispel by conventional means *before* Sasuke cast that binding Genjutsu on Killer B.


 It doesn't compress time, it alters the victims perception of time. Not instantly just very fast, Perfect Jins could break it as soon as they seen they was in it. Tsukuyomi getting broke wouldn't make the user feel it was broke, They must have a predetermined plan of what they will do in that world before it is cast as the real world is still revolving and it would take incredible concentration to control Tsukuyomi and fight.





> Were it not for the inverted colors, or the prerequisites for Susanoo in the 3rd Databook(that so many take as an all-encompassing description of what is required, and what comes about of any example of Susanoo), I doubt anybody would have questioned it at all.


 Sasuke has Tsukuyomi, or atleast MS genjutsu...but whats the difference. Ill touch upon that.


> What separates Tsukuyomi from any other powerful Sharingan Genjutsu otherwise?


 As Madara showed nothing. If Madara was good enough he could ultimately use a tsukuyomi like Itachis' with his base genjutsu. Other than the power/ability it takes  to break the genjutsu's imo...nothing is different between Tsukuyomi and regular genjutsu.





> *Anyways*, since this is _"*EMS* Sasuke vs Itachi"_ you guys're talking about, let's just presume that Sasuke is capable of casting Tsukuyomi now, since he has Itachi's eyes.


Regardless if he has Tsukuyomi, he has MS Genjutsu. Not like it matters, Hebi Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi and the only part genjutsu is going to play will be Sasuke tricking Itachi, with a low impact genjutsu like he did against Danzo where the person doesn't know he's in a genjutsu.


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## SaiST (Aug 15, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> When Danzo stated it clear as day.


He didn't, though. There's no inference of a comparison between two Tsukuyomi in that statement.



> _It doesn't compress time, it alters the victims perception of time._


Hence, the quotation marks. Time _"compression"_ is a popular shorthand reference.



> _Other than the power/ability it takes  to break the genjutsu's imo...nothing is different between Tsukuyomi and regular genjutsu._


 I respectfully disagree. Moving on.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 15, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I still see people argue that it isn't instant despite the manga saying it is.



Raikage says Hey. Jyuubito says Hey. Do I need to continue? Its very clear that Amaterasu doesn't appear on the enemy but is cast as a projectile as shown in the H Sasuke vs Itachi fight, where their are fireballs traveling through the air. Not appearing on the target or in a static position mid air. If it is as you propose it is then it would've just hit the air where Itachi focused and dropped, instead it continued to travel so it has a trajectory of which only projectiles have. Kamui on the other appear in mid air at a fixed position.

I don't know why you argue this. It isn't about what characters say, it what is illustrated plain as day.

Like vs Pain- Kyuubi stopped CT by busting out of it, but then later it was stated you have to destroy the core.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 15, 2013)

SaiST said:


> He didn't, though. There's no inference of a comparison between two Tsukuyomi in that statement.


pretty serious AoE, too,

Danzo said their powers are the same

Here Sasuke goes, and even uses crows while using his ms Justu

pretty serious AoE, too,
pretty serious AoE, too,

pretty serious AoE, too,

Compared to Itachi's Tsukuyomi. So funny Danzo is comparing their MS Genjutsu's and Sasuke even used crows identically to how Itachi does.


> Hence, the quotation marks. Time _"compression"_ is a popular shorthand reference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 15, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Raikage says Hey. Jyuubito says Hey. Do I need to continue? Its very clear that Amaterasu doesn't appear on the enemy but is cast as a projectile as shown in the H Sasuke vs Itachi fight, where their are fireballs traveling through the air. Not appearing on the target or in a static position mid air. If it is as you propose it is then it would've just hit the air where Itachi focused and dropped, instead it continued to travel so it has a trajectory of which only projectiles have. Kamui on the other appear in mid air at a fixed position.
> 
> I don't know why you argue this. It isn't about what characters say, it what is illustrated plain as day.
> 
> Like vs Pain- Kyuubi stopped CT by busting out of it, but then later it was stated you have to destroy the core.



Nah you got it all wrong.

Amaterasu appears on the spot, as it is stated and shown in the manga.


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## ueharakk (Aug 15, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nice delusion you have there.



well, considering you've shown zero reasons why it is a delusion, then it would be you who claim without reason that my argument is a delusion who is under the delusion that is the itachi fandom illusion.


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## Ashi (Aug 15, 2013)

Sasuke wins since he has better versatility and stamina so he can pierce susanoo and burn itachi to a crisp


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 15, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah you got it all wrong.
> 
> Amaterasu appears on the spot, as it is stated and shown in the manga.



 Now, looking back, you're probably right.

 Sasuke states Itachi uses 2 Amaterasus. 

 I agree with the rest that IchLiebe said though.


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## Cord (Aug 15, 2013)

> Other than the power/ability it takes to break the genjutsu's imo...nothing is different between Tsukuyomi and regular genjutsu.



Tsukuyomi won't be Tsukuyomi if its facets can't be distinguished from other generic Sharingan Genjutsu.



SaiST said:


> Sasuke, 'cause of the superior Doujutsu, and use of Enton.
> 
> Curse Cordelia and SubtleObscurantist for luring me here.
> 
> ...



​


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 15, 2013)

What the hell am I reading Grimm 

Have you even read Sasuke vs Itachi battle, Raikage vs Sasuke battle, or the current battle?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 15, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah you got it all wrong.
> 
> Amaterasu appears on the spot, as it is stated and shown in the manga.



 Does this apply to only Itachi's Amaterasu?

 I only watch the English Dubbed Anime, so I'd like to be informed.


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## Ashi (Aug 15, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> Does this apply to only Itachi's Amaterasu?
> 
> I only watch the English Dubbed Anime, so I'd like to be informed.



Watch the subbed anime

And the manga if you wanna be caught up with feats

Trust me it's for your own good and your lit teacher won't mind either


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 15, 2013)

^ Part of me wants to experience the whole thing through English Dubbed and part of me wants to read the manga and get near the end.

 Hard decision to make.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 15, 2013)

GrimmjowSensei said:
			
		

> Nah you got it all wrong.
> 
> Amaterasu appears on the spot, as it is stated and shown in the manga.[/quoted] Where was it stated exactly? I wanted to give you that but thinking back I don't think one character says its instantaneous and appears of the focal point.
> _summoned_
> ...


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 15, 2013)

^ Understood your argument, now I agree.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 15, 2013)

Now young here is where the Itachi fans continue to come into here and spew the bullshit you prove them wrong about.


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## Sans (Aug 16, 2013)

Itachi's Susano'o is modeled after a higher spiritual being than Sasuke's, so it wins.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 16, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Where was it stated exactly?


Quoting Viz translation :



> White Zetsu: "W-whoa... He put out flames with flames!"
> 
> Black Zetsu: "One needs only to sight one's target, and the black flames come to life right on point."






> If what you suggest to be correct there should be no running from Amaterasu by a ninja that is particularly slow and a younger version of the Shinobi at question here.



Sasuke started running before Itachi used Amaterasu, and Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke. 
Even as a villain, he was trying to do a delicate job of preserving the upperbody which also Zetsu noted.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Aug 16, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Itachi's Susano'o is modeled after a higher spiritual being than Sasuke's, so it wins.



What?

Aren't both of their Susano'o's modelled after the same god, Susano? 
Itachi's weaponry is simply modelled off of the three Imperial Reigalia. Where as Sasuke's own is modeled off of what Amaterasu actually wielded in battle herself, and considering Enton Kagutsuchi, Kagutsuchi being the god of fire, is a big part of Sasuke's own Susano. Kishi's approach with Sasuke's Susano isn't in no way shape or form inferior to Itachi's in status.


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## SaiST (Aug 16, 2013)

Having the ethereal armament of Itachi's Susanoo named, or based on after the Imperial Regalia of Japan says more to most readers than a type of weapon that Amaterasu Omikami happened to keep by her side, or grant to lesser deities.

In that way, they are more significant. But I maintain that it doesn't mean a thing as far as how they stack up in terms of battle. At least, I can confidently say that Sasuke's offensive capabilities are superior.


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## Ersa (Aug 16, 2013)

Amaterasu does indeed appear instantly but it doesn't latch on in an instant. This is why fast characters like V2 A can Shunshin away, they can feel the flames and run and since the Sharingan has a hard time tracking that level of speed Amaterasu is not so useful against speedsters.

Granted this only appears to V2 A, KCM Naruto and Minato.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 16, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Quoting Viz translation :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And Zetsu said that admitted that he hasn't never seen it until now. Its just what he heard.

I showed depictions that it isn't like you say or it wouldn't hit the trees.

Itachi wanted to kill Sasuke. He couldn't have relied on hope that Sasuke could regain half of his destroyed body.


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Sasuke doesn't have time manipulation. Genjutsu without time manipulation is not Tsukuyomi, no? Or was Tsukuyomi defined by inverted colors somewhere, even though Itachi's Tsukuyomi doesn't always have inverted colors?​



my bad  i know little about this. Just thought he did 
in any case though enton spam isnt something to be messed with. Tskuyomi isnt a guaranteed 1 shotter as people can argue it however, if enton touches itachi which it should seeing the ridiculous number of ways sasuke can use it. itachi dies


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 16, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> And Zetsu said that admitted that he hasn't never seen it until now. Its just what he heard.
> 
> I showed depictions that it isn't like you say or it wouldn't hit the trees.



I think there is a misconception here.

Amaterasu appears the same way a fire would start if you picked up a magnifying glas and directed the sunlight to a dry leaf.
So the initial formation is somewhat instant. The flame doesn't come out from the eyeball.

But once the flame is formed and materialized, it can be moved around freely by the users gaze as long as they can maintain it.

In short, the flame initially appears on users focal point and then travels with his gaze.




> Itachi wanted to kill Sasuke. He couldn't have relied on hope that Sasuke could regain half of his destroyed body.


Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke. Stated fact.

Also you have to have the mentaility of an absolute idiot to believe otherwise after all is said and done about Itachi and his motives.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 16, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think there is a misconception here.
> 
> Amaterasu appears the same way a fire would start if you picked up a magnifying glas and directed the sunlight to a dry leaf.
> So the initial formation is somewhat instant. The flame doesn't come out from the eyeball.


 Ill agree at close distances it is near instant, but still not instant. If we go by what Zetsu says Then everything in Itachi field of vision would be incinerated however that not the case. So are you saying Amaterasu can bypass Susanoo? Cause Im arguing that it can't but that it will destroy Susanoo.





> But once the flame is formed and materialized, it can be moved around freely by the users gaze as long as they can maintain it.


No need to state the obvious.





> In short, the flame initially appears on users focal point and then travels with his gaze.


 Yes to a degree. But unlike Kakashi did with Kamui against Deidara where the Kamui had a static position in relation to Kakashi. If Itachi would've been in the same scenario Amaterasu would've went into the atmosphere after it missed.





> Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke. Stated fact.


His actions state otherwise. Why would he destroy Sasuke's body without knowledge that he would have a counter for it and able to regenerate on such a scale(only Orochimaru and Tsunade are the only ones people give regenerating limbs to atm). If I want to let my brother kill me, Im not going to blow his legs off in the hope that he will live, get new limbs and kill me.


> Also you have to have the mentaility of an absolute idiot to believe otherwise after all is said and done about Itachi and his motives.


Right back at ya.




			
				Cordelia said:
			
		

> Tsukuyomi won't be Tsukuyomi if its facets can't be distinguished from other generic Sharingan Genjutsu.


 What are these facets? Time Manipulation- is that it? As I have stated there isn't nothing Tsukuyomi does that a generic sharingan genjutsu can't do as Madara showed us and Obito when he created the world and if Madara was intelligent enough, im sure he is, then he should be able to do time manipulation, atleast slight time manipulation, in his world.

Also people seem to think that Itachi is compressing time, he is expanding time. He makes 1 second last 1day or whatever.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 16, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Ill agree at close distances it is near instant, but still not instant. If we go by what Zetsu says Then everything in Itachi field of vision would be incinerated however that not the case. So are you saying Amaterasu can bypass Susanoo? Cause Im arguing that it can't but that it will destroy Susanoo.


I think anything that obscures the vision of the user will block Amaterasu, same goes for Kamui.



> No need to state the obvious. Yes to a degree. But unlike Kakashi did with Kamui against Deidara where the Kamui had a static position in relation to Kakashi. If Itachi would've been in the same scenario Amaterasu would've went into the atmosphere after it missed.


But the difference is, once amaterasu is materialized, it means you are on fire. You have to move out of the way before it is materialized, and as we've seen you need Raikage level reactions to be able to do so.




> His actions state otherwise. Why would he destroy Sasuke's body without knowledge that he would have a counter for it and able to regenerate on such a scale(only Orochimaru and Tsunade are the only ones people give regenerating limbs to atm). If I want to let my brother kill me, Im not going to blow his legs off in the hope that he will live, get new limbs and kill me.


I think Itachi somehow felt or guessed that Sasuke used a kawarimi. Because later on he states that he knew about the technique.*massive collateral damage*

Also he didn't try to ignite Sasuke legs and chose the wing because if anything went wrong, Sasuke would still be ok. 
His wing is not a part of his natural limbs, it only sprouts with CS. So nothing woul happen to Sasuke if he had lost it.





> Right back at ya.



Seriously ? 

What else do you want from Kishi ? 

Multiple sources confirmed that Itachi loved Sasuke, to the extend that even more than the village and Obito said that Itachi only wanted to push Sasuke to the edge and not kill him.

What would convince you that Itachi actually didn't want to kill Sasuke ?


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 16, 2013)

Sasuke can't tank Totsuka.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2013)

itachi cant tank enton 
enton comes out before totsuka


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 16, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think anything that obscures the vision of the user will block Amaterasu, same goes for Kamui.
> 
> 
> But the difference is, once amaterasu is materialized, it means you are on fire. You have to move out of the way before it is materialized, and as we've seen you need Raikage level reactions to be able to do so.
> ...



 Now I'm starting to agree with a lot of what this guy is saying.

 Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke. He merely wanted to push him to his limits to seal Orochimaru. Once that was done, he really had no need to fight Sasuke. Even Tobi convinces Sasuke that Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke and steal his eyes.


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 16, 2013)

id say itachi bcuz he has yata and totsuka unbeatable combo


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 16, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Ill agree at close distances it is near instant, but still not instant. If we go by what Zetsu says Then everything in Itachi field of vision would be incinerated however that not the case. So are you saying Amaterasu can bypass Susanoo? Cause Im arguing that it can't but that it will destroy Susanoo.No need to state the obvious. Yes to a degree. But unlike Kakashi did with Kamui against Deidara where the Kamui had a static position in relation to Kakashi. If Itachi would've been in the same scenario Amaterasu would've went into the atmosphere after it missed.His actions state otherwise. Why would he destroy Sasuke's body without knowledge that he would have a counter for it and able to regenerate on such a scale(only Orochimaru and Tsunade are the only ones people give regenerating limbs to atm). If I want to let my brother kill me, Im not going to blow his legs off in the hope that he will live, get new limbs and kill me.
> 
> Right back at ya.
> 
> ...


i cant believe you are arguing over itachi wanting to kill sasuke are u serious? it was stated several times that itachi had no intentions of killing sasuke please take non sense like that some where else bcuz this isnt the thread for that


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 16, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> Now I'm starting to agree with a lot of what this guy is saying.
> 
> Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke. He merely wanted to push him to his limits to seal Orochimaru. Once that was done, he really had no need to fight Sasuke. Even Tobi convinces Sasuke that Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke and steal his eyes.



when will a mod band this troll ?


----------



## Ashi (Aug 16, 2013)

sanninme rikudo said:


> id say itachi bcuz he has yata and totsuka unbeatable combo



troll alert


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## Elite Uchiha (Aug 16, 2013)

People don't know what instant means I see


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 16, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> when will a mod band this troll ?



  Are you being serious? Ban somebody for being wrong? I don't even ....

 If you're going to bash somebody for being human, at least  disprove what they're saying instead of accusing them for being a troll.

 Are people so in to Naruto that you have to bash somebody for being wrong?


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 17, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think anything that obscures the vision of the user will block Amaterasu, same goes for Kamui.


 But in Kamui's case it isn't a projectile. Amaterasu is. If someone has Susanoo on; Sasuke uses Amaterasu, it hits outer Susanoo(even though its transparent), But If Kakashi used Kamui it would get through without effecting outer Susanoo. Kakashi can look through a window and hit with Kamui. Itachi and Sasuke can't amaterasu someone through a window. There has to be a source on where the chakra comes from and it hits and materializes on anything that blocks. Now of course Amaterasu will destroy the mirror and keep going, but by what your suggesting is that it couldn't keep going. If your going to say that it appears magically on the target and is a projectile then you would be a disproportional disadvantage to certain opponets, in this case Sasuke and Itachi as both have Amaterasu and Susanoo.


> But the difference is, once amaterasu is materialized, it means you are on fire. You have to move out of the way before it is materialized, and as we've seen you need Raikage level reactions to be able to do so.


 Raikage dodged at the last minute. You need around V1 Speed to dodge it. Sasuke was outrunning Itachi's. Yes but its mechanics aren't the same as Kamui. Read above.





> I think Itachi somehow felt or guessed that Sasuke used a kawarimi. Because later on he states that he knew about the technique.and pins Neji to a tree.


 First of all, "you think", so you don't if that is actually what happened, but you're "guessing". He knew that Orochimaru was capable of it. Are we going to assume anyone with CS2 can use Oral Rebirth(actually liquid rebirth this time, Orochimaru never showed that) like Kimmimaro? I go by what was shown you go by what you want to think happened.





> Also he didn't try to ignite Sasuke legs and chose the wing because if anything went wrong, Sasuke would still be ok.


Something did go wrong, he was BURNT IN FUCKING HALF.

Good job at aiming at the wing here
and pins Neji to a tree.





> His wing is not a part of his natural limbs, it only sprouts with CS. So nothing woul happen to Sasuke if he had lost it.


 But he lost his legs and torso. That isn't a wing.





> Seriously ?
> 
> What else do you want from Kishi ?
> 
> ...


I think Itachi knew he wasn't powerful enough to stop Tobi. Sasuke was though, had good strong chakra from the first times he was shown. He trained his entire life to beat Itachi for not the sake of the village but for the world. And Itachi knew that if Sasuke wasn't able to beat him after training for 10+ years how does he figure giving him his eyes will stop the war in 2 years and Sasuke isn't up to par with the top tiers being shown today. He just ain't got it but neither does Itachi. Their moves aren't unique they ain't got nothing with great busting power and the top tier speed and reactions. But Sasuke on the other hand is better situated for taking on high tiers head on thanks to his chakra.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 17, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> Are you being serious? Ban somebody for being wrong? I don't even ....
> 
> If you're going to bash somebody for being human, at least  disprove what they're saying instead of accusing them for being a troll.
> 
> Are people so in to Naruto that you have to bash somebody for being wrong?



Well he is GrimmjowSensei.


This is the way some people act and try and succeed on getting you banned for no good reason, like a comment stated by multitudes of scientific studies being quoted on in Scientific books blogs and magazine, and said in a, and i repeat, "very frank way of saying things, and being a jerk".


Just watch and learn. My first few post I actually like Itachi(suprised me) now I hate him with a disturbing passion. I hate him plain and simple. He is overestimated and what his fights come down to is Tsukuyomi, Sword of Tosuka, YM which are good against anyone mid-high tier. But his chakra limits him taking out a lot of people. Just run and outlast and you beat Itachi...You don't have to fight just piddle around and buy some time he will kill his self are use the Uchiha Art of Run to escape. And is base arsenal is ridiculously horrible bar genjutsu and it doesn't seem to play much of a factor now that if you are moving you can't be targeted(As in Raikage vs Madara). And Im sorry but Madara is top Uchiha in every aspect. Don't give me your bullshit, he could fight for days and is a killing machine. Any MS genjutsu that is different than a generic sharigan genjutsu is KotoA. And there is no fucking healthy Itachi. He didn't have a headache until he used Tsukuyomi, his eye didn't bleed until he used Amaterasu, he didn't cough up a considerable amount of blood until he used Susanoo and got hit by Kirin, which busted Susanoo.


----------



## Jagger (Aug 17, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Sasuke can't tank Totsuka.


The same way Itachi can't tank Enton or a Susano'o arrow.

Please, if you're going to say who you believe that wins, at least try to make up some sense.

I'll say EMS Sasuke wins. He's just superior than Itachi and Kishi is trying to portray things this way and the gap will even be much larger as the chapters go.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 17, 2013)

@IchLiebe

  I always believed there was a Healthy Itachi.

 We obviously don't know how strong he is besides the fact that he's a lot quicker than he was during the battle against Sasuke which was confirmed by Zetsu himself.

 I agree with the rest though. Sasuke can easily outmatch Itachi in an Amaterasu fight or Susanoo fight due to his chakra levels and bust it with Kirin and use Itachi's Amaterasu to his advantage.

 Looking back, it does seem Itachi was trying to steal Sasuke's eyes. If he knew Sasuke can use the Kawirimi, then why did Itachi bend over to pick up his eyes?

 Also, thanks for being a respectable poster.


----------



## narutoish (Aug 17, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> I always believed there was a Healthy Itachi.



That would be edo itachi as far as taijutsu and general speed goes.


> I agree with the rest though. Sasuke can easily outmatch Itachi in an Amaterasu fight or Susanoo fight due to his chakra levels and bust it with Kirin and use Itachi's Amaterasu to his advantage.



But if you look at itachi fights, he is smart enough to know that Sasuke is better with amertersu so he won't start amertersu exchange. Also Sasuke doesn't have that much more chakra then itachi seeing as that we're out at the same time during their fight, even though itachi was using MS moves as was dying due to his illness. 



> Looking back, it does seem Itachi was trying to steal Sasuke's eyes. If he knew Sasuke can use the Kawirimi, then why did Itachi bend over to pick up his eyes?[\QUOTE]
> 
> If you think itachi was after Sasuke's eyes, then you got it all wrong, itachi was just pushing him to his limits, it was established in the story long ago and cannot be contradicted.
> 
> As for the fight you can believe what you want, but what IchLiebe said about itachi fans is true for all fanbases, there are people who wank their fab characters, but when it comes to battle dome, I wouldn't call IchLiebe unbiased either.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 17, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> Are you being serious? Ban somebody for being wrong? I don't even ....
> 
> If you're going to bash somebody for being human, at least  disprove what they're saying instead of accusing them for being a troll.
> 
> Are people so in to Naruto that you have to bash somebody for being wrong?



I didn't say you should be banned for being wrong. 
You should be banned for trolling.

edit : 



IchLiebe said:


> But in Kamui's case it isn't a projectile. Amaterasu is.



Amaterasu isn't a projectile though.



> If someone has Susanoo on; Sasuke uses Amaterasu, it hits outer Susanoo(even though its transparent), But If Kakashi used Kamui it would get through without effecting outer Susanoo. Kakashi can look through a window and hit with Kamui.


Has he ever done that ? 
Susano'o isn't fully transparent. And if it works for Kamui, then it would for Amaterasu.



> Itachi and Sasuke can't amaterasu someone through a window. There has to be a source on where the chakra comes from and it hits and materializes on anything that blocks. Now of course Amaterasu will destroy the mirror and keep going, but by what your suggesting is that it couldn't keep going. If your going to say that it appears magically on the target and is a projectile then you would be a disproportional disadvantage to certain opponets, in this case Sasuke and Itachi as both have Amaterasu and Susanoo.


You have to explain to me why Kamui is different in mechanics.




> Raikage dodged at the last minute. You need around V1 Speed to dodge it


.
He used V2 though.



> Sasuke was outrunning Itachi's.


Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke and he used Amaterasu after Sasuke started running. 



> Yes but its mechanics aren't the same as Kamui. Read above. First of all, "you think", so you don't if that is actually what happened, but you're "guessing". He knew that Orochimaru was capable of it. Are we going to assume anyone with CS2 can use Oral Rebirth(actually liquid rebirth this time, Orochimaru never showed that) like Kimmimaro? I go by what was shown you go by what you want to think happened.Something did go wrong, he was BURNT IN FUCKING HALF.


I think just as Zetsu concluded that absorbing Orochimaru allowed Sasuke to use a jutsu from Oro's repertoiare, Itachi thought about the same thing.
Also Itachi wasn't one bit surprised when Orochimaru came out of Sasuke's cursed seal, he even said "you finally show yourself." Itachi was expecting it.
Obito also stated that one of Itachi's goals was to save Sasuke from cursed seal.



> Good job at aiming at the wing here
> _prevent_
> But he lost his legs and torso. That isn't a wing.


I think you posted the wrong page, Itachi ignites Sasuke from the wing first.
_prevent_


> I think Itachi knew he wasn't powerful enough to stop Tobi. Sasuke was though, had good strong chakra from the first times he was shown. He trained his entire life to beat Itachi for not the sake of the village but for the world. And Itachi knew that if Sasuke wasn't able to beat him after training for 10+ years how does he figure giving him his eyes will stop the war in 2 years and Sasuke isn't up to par with the top tiers being shown today.


That is assuming that Itachi had a mind set like this : 
"Either Sasuke proves that he is strong enough to beat me, or he should just die."

Which is completely false.




> He just ain't got it but neither does Itachi. Their moves aren't unique they ain't got nothing with great busting power and the top tier speed and reactions. But Sasuke on the other hand is better situated for taking on high tiers head on thanks to his chakra.



These are all your personal opinion which I am not interested in. Which are also off topic.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 17, 2013)

^ Good for you. People are wrong and have a different opinion, so they should be banned for trolling.

 I lost the respect I had for you.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Aug 17, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> troll alert


troll? i think your the troll here your comparing yata and totsuka to sasuke are u smoking?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 17, 2013)

sanninme rikudo said:


> id say itachi bcuz he has yata and totsuka unbeatable combo



 Ok pal. Can Itachi beat Madara as well?

 Zetsu did say it was unbeatable meaning a really strong combo. Every combo has a weakness.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 17, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ Good for you. People are wrong and have a different opinion, so they should be banned for trolling.
> 
> I lost the respect I had for you.



Oh no! Grimm must be so hurt


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 17, 2013)

^ You sound so cool picking on a newbie.

 Ya know, I remember a thread on whether Naruto-base or this forum is better and quite frankly, Naruto-base is a lot better.


----------



## Mayweather (Aug 17, 2013)

Sasuke wins pretty comforably here. I am of the opinion that he can stalemate Edo Itachi to some degree.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 17, 2013)

@Elite
 That's cool.

 Whether or not he cares about my opinion, I don't care. What I do care is when somebody bashes me, accuses me of trolling for being wrong, and doesn't even explain how I'm trolling and just says, "mods, this troll should be banned." I don't understand why I should without giving an actual reason besides,"He's a troll."


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 18, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> The databook entry of Susano'o may generally (not the entirety of it) be referring to Itachi's, seeing that he's the only one so far whom we've seen awaken that ocular power at the time where such entry was written. It's only natural that the author would base the major characteristics of Susano'o on what he's established so far. But the DB may not be necessarily referring to Susano'o in general as the weapons and other arsenals are supposed to be the distinguishing facets among Mangekyo users who have awakened Susano'o. Surely, the Susano'o that either Sasuke and Madara will wield has not been set to stone when Kishimoto wrote that entry for such ocular power. The more reason to think that the specifics are only referring to Itachi's.
> 
> An example of this is the entry for Tsukuyomi which states that _it's a prerequisite in awakening Susano'o_- which could've been referring only to Itachi once again. As I'm also one of those who believe that Sasuke .
> 
> We might be having a revised data book entry of those jutsus which would hopefully clear these things up.



That's one rationale. Although nothing in the manga contests it. We've yet to see a Susanoo in its fourth half body state show its capabilities, other than Itachi's. That happens to be the only Susano form which showed said items. If these items were unique to Itachi, you'd think Kishimoto would show that Susanoo variation more often rather than keeping it purposely hidden.



> I have seen all the scans that you provided, but I just don't see how they can also be referenced as the Yata Mirror and Totsuka, respectively and that they're not actually just Sasuke's normal bow and shield (with upgraded versions). The actual shape of the bow shield that you gave to KeyofMiracles, looked pretty vague to me considering that the weapon was not even drawn in its entirety: just a part of it. But if there's indeed any difference in shape or form of the bowshield, it can be attributed to Susano'o upsizing it to greater size rather than it necessarily transforming to "Yata Mirror". Just like how Susano'o itself can upgrade its version from ribcage to incomplete and finally to a complete one.
> 
> The "Totsuka" that Sasuke's Susano'o held on the Kage Summit looked pretty similar to the enton coated bow that he used against Kakashi.
> 
> And most importantly, Sasuke's Susano'o weapons weren't actually and outright referred to as the same ethereal weapons that Itachi wields. I mean, if Sasuke also have those, wouldn't the author be clear on that? Like providing any manga statement to show the readers that those weapons are not really exclusive to Itachi's Susano'o? Considering that Zetsu's statements and the DB gives the readers an impression that these weapons are indeed exclusive to Itachi.



The link I showed KeyofMiracles shows the shape of the bow turning to an actual shield. In fact, you can see exactly the same thing occurring in the anime adaptation of that manga page.

As for why no-one mentioned Totsuka/Yata: Sasuke clearly doesn't use them as often as Itachi. Furthermore, as I mentioned before, the Susanoo state Itachi showed (which has those items) is being purposely hidden. Purposely hidden as in only Itachi has used it and Kishimoto has somehow given Sasuke and Madara reasons _not_ to use that Susanoo state.



> These are the only clear comparison that you've given to me. But I still can't accept this scan as an evidence to justify MS Sasuke wielding those weapons nor any scan involving an EMS Sasuke- who may have possibly already inherited Itachi's ethereal weapons after he transplanted his brother's eyes unto him. And which are yet to be confirmed in the succeeding chapters once Sasuke is given more feats.



Except we know that Sasuke's ocular powers grew, that's all he meant by "Itachi's powers". Nothing about obtaining Itachi's jutsu. As per Itachi, the only extra jutsu EMS users gain is this unknown jutsu, nothing about obtaining the donor's ocular powers.



> Right. Just like how only posters say that MS Sasuke also had the Totsuka and Yata and assume that the Databook speaks generally of all Susano'o wielders. Would that also mean that Madara has the Yata and Totsuka?



_That_ is a stronger stance because it at least makes use of all the evidence we have. Whereas the opposition assumes all evidence against the items being unique to Itachi is unreliable without any substantial reasoning.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 18, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> If Rasengan had a more ambiguous nature, such that the exact functions and patterns that could be debated, and it was never called that, but it was always called that for Minato for and Jiraiya, you would have made a good analogy. However, your analogy is absolutely horrible. You are just clouding the issue, which I am sure you are aware of. It was never called Tsukuyomi. It was always called Tsukuyomi for Itachi. And no, the details aren't consistent until you decided to interpret them that way.



Actually you're not disputing it because the visual cues make it perfectly clear that it is Rasengan. However what baffles me is the visual cues for Sasuke's Tsukuyomi make it clear it is the jutsu and you still place a name over the very clear visual cues.



> More obfuscation. His consciousness of time is what I have been talking about and you know it.



Danzo made it clear no Genjutsu that Sasuke had would work. In fact at that moment he foreshadowed that only a Genjutsu that could manipulate time (Tsukuyomi) could 'get' him. It did, albeit a weakened version considering Sasuke's low reserves.



> A point you simply made up. Sharingan control has never been associated with the MS or hatred. It's just a genjutsu that can vary in power based on those factors or like with Tsukuyomi, by manipulating time to give the caster more time to break down the mind of the opponent. I suppose Sasuke needed that just for a simple fodder nin and Zetsu? Lol, that would mean that even if he had Tsukuyomi, it would be like heaven and earth compared to Itachi.



I can say that the "Sasuke lacks Tsukuyomi" is made up with the agenda of keeping an old impression of Tsukuyomi alive. However I'm not, I'm at least giving it the benefit of the doubt enough to debate it. 

Actually read one of the scans I gave you previously again. It is very clear that Obito said Sasuke's body was responding to his hatred, and Susanoo's very appearance was the cue for said hatred. So if he tired, it is obvious that his body hadn't adjusted to it _till_ he fought Danzo. Susanoo appeared in that base Sharingan Genjutsu feat you tried to generalise to his Tsukuyomi feat on Bee; Susanoo implies his hatred.

Tsukuyomi tends to be more powerful than Genjutsu. So if you were to concede that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi, Sasuke comes across as the better Tsukuyomi user. Especially when, during the battle with Kabuto, Itachi _needed_ Tsukuyomi to accomplish what Sasuke could with normal Genjutsu.



> It didn't fail until after Kirabi landed or else Sasuke would have been aware of it breaking. He signaled no such awareness since Kirabi surprised him with his attack. Unless you think Sasuke, who has seen Tsukuyomi defeated before at his own hands, wouldn't have known it was broken.
> 
> No, the truth is that he clutched his eye before Kirabi broke the illusion. So that isn't consistent with Tsukuyomi. His eye was just burned out like it was against Shi.



He probably was, except unlike Itachi, Sasuke had the pleasure of fighting an opponent who could hit him with immense speed. Kishimoto already established via Itachi that MS users clutching their eye after using a Genjutsu (with inverted panels at some point) with one eye _know_ their illusion is broken when they clutch their eye.
I think in this example, you simply underestimate a shrouded Killer B's speed, and possibly overestimate Sasuke's reflexes.

You're wrong. Sasuke clutched his eye _after_ B landed indicating that before Sasuke clutched his eye, B broke it. Especially when B goes on to explain why Genjutsu wouldn't work on perfect Jinchuriki. 



> We don't know what was used.



The base Sharingan that Sasuke had activated, alongside the base Sharingan on the shadowy figure within the illusion should be a dead giveaway. Did I mention the fact that Sasuke only used the MS from the point the Liger Bomb was used? 



> Cool. Not on topic. Just you repeating your "Tsukuyomi isn't omnipotent" ad nauseum as if the debate is about that.



Actually those are points that you have no answer for. As such you're trying to stamp them out without actually explaining them. The Sasuke example already shows that the instant nature doesn't mean that the illusion can't be broken; when you accept this you can understand the B example.
An example that predates those examples have Tsunade getting two shinobi out of their physical paralysis (caused by Tsukuyomi, which B felt), _despite_ the fact that it was instant.

Point: even _after_ Tsukuyomi lands, it is still possible to overcome its effects. By the "its instant" logic, it should be over when it lands. However Sasuke was shown to break out a moment later, Itachi learnt a moment later... B also broke out a moment later.
Tsukuyomi would appear to have *no effect* if it was broken instantly. However observers of Tsukuyomi (particularly the users) only realise a moment later.



> MS eye isn't important since I showed MS eye is used for non Tsukuyomi and even with Sasuke which eye he uses for genjutsu isn't consistent. I don't think the artwork matters when the effects were simply paralysis with no sign of time manipulation. There was nothing about the illusion that said Tsukuyomi, but you focus on the artwork. Which is worse than focusing on the illusion never being named Tsukuyomi not even once. Plus you have now ascribed two different MS powers to the same eye. Since when is that a thing? Right, since you decided to give Sasuke new abilities he has never been identified with. Not even once.



You are wrong. The MS eye is *very* important. You showed _two_ MS eyes used for a non-Tsukuyomi Genjutsu, then you cited a Zetsu feat which showed Sasuke naming a Genjutsu that wasn't Tsukuyomi.

However you choose to dismiss the clear artwork associated with Tsukuyomi, all for a name... all for some time manipulation that *you cannot even very yourself*. In fact, you also choose to ignore the fact that it was mentioned Sasuke (with depleted reserves) used a subtle version of time manipulation, which is only possible with Tsukuyomi.

The manga chose to give Sasuke three MS powers other than Susanoo; I choose to see it as it is. However I'm not denying Sasuke has a particular power over a name. The name isn't important when the artwork was crystal clear. Otherwise we'd be getting people saying that the Juubi-Dama isn't a Bijuu-Dama because it wasn't named, despite looking the same.



> No, he never said Sasuke controlled time. I have thoroughly addressed this. Sasuke just made it look like the eye was open when it wasn't. A basic visual genjutsu, worthy of being called weak. Controlling Danzo's perception of time to fool him would imply he was consciously aware of when the eyes closed without looking at them meaning he was keeping track of time. Obito said he wasn't and we know he wasn't because that's how Sasuke realized his weak point in the first place.



You have done a *poor* thorough assessment. You're overlooking one very simple fact. Danzo asks why Izanami failed, and Obito actually quotes Danzo's very words on Tsukuyomi- then goes on to say Sasuke did a time manipulation. However he couldn't do it for too long- but that can be attributed to his low reserves at that point in the battle.

If Sasuke used normal Genjutsu we won't have seen emphasis on the Tsukuyomi eye. We also wouldn't have seen Obito answer Danzo's question with a Danzo quote on Tsukuyomi... Lastly we won't have seen the classic inverted panels alongside an inverted panel with the relevant MS eye.
However we *did* see these important details which make us think it was Tsukuyomi, not a normal Genjutsu.

Do you not get that to see it your way, you need to actually discount a lot of details?


> No similarity in results whatsoever, you mean. Notice that when Sasuke came out of the illusion, he was still feeling the sensation of his eye having been stolen in the illusion. There is no indication at all that the sensation of being pierced through many different ways by spears even registered for Kirabi, and he showed no sign of it coming out. Sure, "he's just that tough", but that still means you are missing evidence of the same effect.



Well if Sasuke did the exact same illusion Itachi did, then Bee may have felt the effects. However he didn't, and as you've seen in this manga several times, shinobi can still keep going on after being pierced many times. 
There's also the Bijuu you need to consider.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 18, 2013)

> It lacked inverted colors against the Kumo nin too...wait a second, we never actually see what Kumo nin or Zetsu experienced from their side did we? No, we didn't. And you know it.



But we saw the actual eye in action and we saw Sasuke fulfilling a function of Tsukuyomi that _Itachi_ said existed. Itachi was going to use it to get info on Edo Tensei; Sasuke used it to get info on Bee.

Zetsu was never put under Tsukuyomi. Where you got such an idea is a mystery to me.



> He noted no such thing. Kishi merely emphasized he was using the Sharingan. And it's identical to what he did to the Kumo nin. Oh and I notice that below this, in a part that doesn't need quoting, you said he was using base Sharingan genjutsu. This is how I can tell your are downplaying my points without addressing them, because you are either saying he used his base Sharingan, which is false, or you are using language deliberately evocative of weak or normal when in fact we have no idea what illusion he used. Just like we never see any of his genjutsu named. Because they aren't special. Special techniques always get named at some point if used enough by major characters.



How do you interpret "Sharingan"? The same thing that Madara used with the base Sharingan?

Your points are already downplayed because you're attempting to link to different feats as being identical to one-abother, however the "Sharingan" is a buffer to that.

Whereas with the Kumo-nin, I've already shown Sasuke used it for a purpose that Itachi wanted to use it for.
There's still time for Sasuke to use it should he need to, however the imagery is enough for the readers for now. It is the same reason why the Juubi-Dama doesn't need to be named all the time for us to know what it is.



> Your entire argument is about smaller details. I have shown the mechanics aren't the same, I have shown the MS eye isn't consistent, and I have the name point. You have the artwork. In exactly two cases.



Your argument actually hinges on the most minute detail, whereas mine actually uses a key aspect of this manga's way of showing things - imagery. 
You have showed me feats which are not related to one-another, and your cherry on top is the name. That isn't a good case.



> Which is why using Sharingan prediction, and Mangekyo jutsu did more than their normal share of strain against Ei, right? Oh wait....that didn't happen.
> 
> The rest of your post is just you using your-worst-analogy-I-have-seen-in-awhile-ridiculous-strawman so I will ignore it what it is: a red herring of no value in debate.



Using normal Sharingan jutsu didn't do too much to Sasuke as we saw. However, like the last point you tried to dismiss, you have no valid answer for this. The Genjutsu used on C showed Susanoo, and that was associated with Sasuke's power increasing due to hatred. A fact Obito cleared up with Sasuke's body could work well with the hatred. Obito cleared this up when we say Susanoo, something associated with this power enhancing darkness twice.

Just because this dents your C example (in that you won't be able to generalise it to Sasuke's MS Genjutsu), it doesn't mean you ignore it.


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## Cord (Aug 19, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's one rationale. Although nothing in the manga contests it. We've yet to see a Susanoo in its fourth half body state show its capabilities, other than Itachi's. That happens to be the only Susano form which showed said items. If these items were unique to Itachi, you'd think Kishimoto would show that Susanoo variation more often rather than keeping it purposely hidden.



Except we've already seen the variations. And I can see that those weapons are only wielded by Itachi's Susano'o and we have scans along with manga statements that refer to them. Something I've never seen of Sasuke whenever he used his Susano'o.



> The link I showed KeyofMiracles shows the shape of the bow turning to an actual shield. In fact, you can see exactly the same thing occurring in the anime adaptation of that manga page.



It may have. But in no way does it also translates to it transforming into the Yata mirror and that it's not just an upgrade of the Susnao'o's normal bow shield.



> As for why no-one mentioned Totsuka/Yata: Sasuke clearly doesn't use them as often as Itachi.



It doesn't make any sense that the only reason why there's no mention of the Yata/Totsuka is based on Sasuke not using it as often as Itachi, when he had every reason and need to do so, both in his battle in the Kage Summit and against Danzo. But I find your statement pretty contradictory since you claimed that he used the Totsuka in the Kage summit and the Yata to defend from Danzo's attack. That's just how much we've seen of Itachi when he used both for the first time. 

MS Sasuke never used them simply because he _doesn't have_ them.



> Furthermore, as I mentioned before, the Susanoo state Itachi showed (which has those items) is being purposely hidden. Purposely hidden as in only Itachi has used it and Kishimoto has somehow given Sasuke and Madara reasons _not_ to use that Susanoo state.



What do you mean by "purposely hidden"? Because the author has to give emphasis on how these three different Susano'o wielders are unique from each other (prior to Sasuke obtaining the EMS). They may have similar ocular powers (Susano'o) but that doesn't mean their abilities along with their arsenals have to be similar as well since they are meant to be distinguished-- just like how Itachi and Sasuke's skills in Amaterasu are distinguished; just like how Tobi and Kakashi's Kamuis are different. 

Kishi derived those weapons along with Yasaka no Magatama (albeit it's a jutsu rather than a weapon) from the _Imperial Regalia of Japan_-- the sacred treasures which are meant to be considered as special/exclusive/unique. And he decided to grant it only to Itachi and made sure to give a pretty clear emphasis on that-- hence the feats along with their *identifications* every time Itachi whips out his Susano'o and use them. Again, something we've never seen of Sasuke's.



> Except we know that Sasuke's ocular powers grew, that's all he meant by "Itachi's powers". Nothing about obtaining Itachi's jutsu. As per Itachi, the only extra jutsu EMS users gain is this unknown jutsu, nothing about obtaining the donor's ocular powers.



Ocular powers that he _inherited_ from Itachi. Sasuke remarked that he can sense his brother's "powers" after he obtained those eyes. Tsukuyomi along with those weapons are part of Itachi's "powers".



> _That_ is a stronger stance because it at least makes use of all the evidence we have.



Except we really don't have evidence pointing towards Sasuke's Susano'o possessing Itachi's ethereal weapons which are meant to be unique to the latter and as far as where they were derived is concerned. It's just your own interpretation of those panels.


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## MysteriousD (Aug 20, 2013)

Koto's unlocked? Well then.. Itachi fights Sasuke and leaves Shisui's eye crow hidden in a random bush somewhere looking at Sasuke. When shit gets tough he trolls with his Koto trap card/crow. He'll definitely enjoy this fight with Sasuke as he has his eyes and is a superb MS user. I expect him to look/feel like this right before he activates it..



Other than that/AFTER THAT.. Sasuke gets outsmarted, outplayed, out taijutsued, outgenjutsued, his Susanno gets slurped up by Totsuka, and just Generally *Itachi Uchiha'd*



... because Kotoamatsukami is the *ULTIMATE MS GENJUTSU* and Itachi is free to use it


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## Empathy (Aug 20, 2013)

Itachi only had access to _Kotoamatsukami_ at a posthumous juncture and therefore is not considered part of the arsenal of his alive incarnation. It would be like giving Minato access to the half of the Kyuubi's chakra when he acquired it just before his death or giving Madara, Hashirama's cells when they were given to him after his resurrection.


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## Van Konzen (Aug 20, 2013)

dont forget Itachi has kage level intel at 7..


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 20, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Except we've already seen the variations. And I can see that those weapons are only wielded by Itachi's Susano'o and we have scans along with manga statements that refer to them. Something I've never seen of Sasuke whenever he used his Susano'o.



We've seen the level 4 variation used by Itachi. We've seen one from Sasuke using an item, and none from Madara. Sasuke simply hasn't needed to use that form of Susanoo as much as Itachi, nor has Madara.



> It may have. But in no way does it also translates to it transforming into the Yata mirror and that it's not just an upgrade of the Susnao'o's normal bow shield.



A shield which blocks any attack coming form Susanoo generally means Yata's Mirror. It just happens that Sasuke has an extra asset to his Susanoo, something we should consider given that he's got an extra asset with his Amaterasu.



> It doesn't make any sense that the only reason why there's no mention of the Yata/Totsuka is based on Sasuke not using it as often as Itachi, when he had every reason and need to do so, both in his battle in the Kage Summit and against Danzo. But I find your statement pretty contradictory since you claimed that he used the Totsuka in the Kage summit and the Yata to defend from Danzo's attack. That's just how much we've seen of Itachi when he used both for the first time.
> 
> MS Sasuke never used them simply because he _doesn't have_ them.



I said he used an imperfect Totsuka in the summit. Itachi's sword was only identified as Totsuka when it sealed... using a Susanoo form only Itachi has used the most. A Susanoo form which is being hidden from the other Uchiha for some reason. 

Yata, as I said should be obvious. Take away the bow attachment and you see that the pattern on Sasuke's shield is exactly like Yata's mirror. Especially here, where the speech bubble conveniently conceals it. In fact it is also conveniently mostly covered here and here.

Kishi has shown us Sasuke does in fact have these items. However he's given Sasuke a more efficient Susanoo in the form of its long ranged attack coupled with Kagutsuchi. 
Similar to my critique of Subtle's argument, the only thing being used against is a simple name... The same thing here: the shield and sword couldn't have been the items as they were not named.



> What do you mean by "purposely hidden"? Because the author has to give emphasis on how these three different Susano'o wielders are unique from each other (prior to Sasuke obtaining the EMS). They may have similar ocular powers (Susano'o) but that doesn't mean their abilities along with their arsenals have to be similar as well since they are meant to be distinguished-- just like how Itachi and Sasuke's skills in Amaterasu are distinguished; just like how Tobi and Kakashi's Kamuis are different.
> 
> Kishi derived those weapons along with Yasaka no Magatama (albeit it's a jutsu rather than a weapon) from the _Imperial Regalia of Japan_-- the sacred treasures which are meant to be considered as special/exclusive/unique. And he decided to grant it only to Itachi and made sure to give a pretty clear emphasis on that-- hence the feats along with their *identifications* every time Itachi whips out his Susano'o and use them. Again, something we've never seen of Sasuke's.



Actually Kishimoto has purposely hidden Susanoo's full capabilities, showcasing most of the highest form's capabilities with Itachi's. All while trying to show Sasuke's off as little as possible for now. If Kishimoto wanted to show that the Susanoo was radically different with each user, he wouldn't be skipping showing that particular form with anyone that's not Itachi.
Like you said we've never seen these items from Sasuke's Susanoo; the manga hasn't allowed him to flesh out his level 4 Susanoo like it has allowed Itachi to do so.

Kakashi and Tobi's Kamui is a bad comparison as its the same jutsu with different applications; you can argue the same with both Koto eyes. 

As for Sasuke-Itachi, their eye powers would have to be the same given the towering evidence from the DB and manga tells us that all MS jutsu are the same*, but apparently some Uchiha can take it a step further e.g. Sasuke and Madara.

*Not including special cases like Shisui and Obito who had Senju cells. 



> Ocular powers that he _inherited_ from Itachi. Sasuke remarked that he can sense his brother's "powers" after he obtained those eyes. Tsukuyomi along with those weapons are part of Itachi's "powers".



When you can find the page that says Itachi's abilities transfer to Sasuke, that would be great. However Sasuke just meant that the EMS made him so much stronger, it is a higher level of Doujutsu compared to the MS. 

Your point would have a leg to stand on if Sasuke didn't show traces of these jutsu/items prior the MS. However now saying "but it is because he has Itachi's eyes" comes across as a way to accept Sasuke has said jutsu/items.



> Except we really don't have evidence pointing towards Sasuke's Susano'o possessing Itachi's ethereal weapons which are meant to be unique to the latter and as far as where they were derived is concerned.* It's just your own interpretation of those panels*.



Actually I could say the same to you. The choice of designs for the shield/sword (especially the execution and patterns) should be more than enough to infer that Itachi isn't the only wielder of these items. Especially when the databook was very exact when it said Susanoo generally wields these items, not Itachi. The same entry which said there were other Susanoo users.

Zetsu is not a good source to cling to when saying the items are unique when this is clearly a guy who doesn't know the MS inside-out. For example he didn't seem to know what Amaterasu looked like till the Uchiha battle, and he didn't even know Susanoo existed.


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## MysteriousD (Aug 20, 2013)

Bro you left Koto unlocked.... there is no debate Sasuke loses and does watever Itachi wants him to.

Itachi can "read" people with his eyes that others, even Uchiha's, even Sasuke with Itachi's eyes cannot read.

EMS Sasuke still thought Itachi was perfect and that mindscape greatly effects battles, hes gonna play it extra safe with his bro and end of falling for a trap and dying. He will also be constantly impressed and just be a Itachi's greatest fan like he's always been.

You also gave Itachi EMS Sasuke-level chakra, meaning he gets to mirror EMS Sasuke's durability and lack of effects with MS usage... basically EMS Itachi vs EMS Sasuke.

Itachi wins low diff and pokes his brother on the head


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 20, 2013)

^ That's debatable depending on the situation.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 20, 2013)

Honestly, since I'm not far in the manga, I'll admit that I can't make my judgement.

 All I'll say is that Sasuke can combine Amaterasu with Susanoo which allows him to damage even some of the quickest opponents.

 But please, tell use why Itachi's Susanoo is superior.

 Once I get further in the manga, maybe I'll be able to support my opinion better.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 20, 2013)

^ That suddenly makes his Susanoo stronger than Sasukes?

 Like I said, hopefully I get further into the manga to see more of Itachi's Susanoo in action.


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## Cord (Aug 20, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A shield which blocks any attack coming form Susanoo generally means Yata's Mirror. It just happens that Sasuke has an extra asset to his Susanoo, something we should consider given that he's got an extra asset with his Amaterasu.



I would disagree if this extra asset that you speak of is Kagutsuchi. Because I also believe that it's Sasuke's other ocular power rather than just an extra asset of Amaterasu. So no, the shield that I was referring to isn't just an extra asset, but his weapon per se.



> I said he used an imperfect Totsuka in the summit. Itachi's sword was only identified as Totsuka when it sealed... using a Susanoo form only Itachi has used the most. A Susanoo form which is being hidden from the other Uchiha for some reason.
> 
> Yata, as I said should be obvious. Take away the bow attachment and you see that the pattern on Sasuke's shield is exactly like Yata's mirror. Especially here, where the speech bubble conveniently conceals it. In fact it is also conveniently mostly covered here and here.



I see nothing of the sort. Because that looks just about the same as the bow-shield's pattern. Also, the "pattern" in the first scan you gave me is ambiguous enough for us to assume that it's the Yata and not the bow shield because either patterns were drawn almost alike. That's why identifications of those items are necessary if we wanted to prove something here. 



> Kishi has shown us Sasuke does in fact have these items. However he's given Sasuke a more efficient Susanoo in the form of its long ranged attack coupled with Kagutsuchi.
> Similar to my critique of Subtle's argument, the only thing being used against is a simple name... The same thing here: the shield and sword couldn't have been the items as they were not named.



Because a generic bowshield and sword no longer warrant any identifications if it's already obvious what they are, unless they're as special as those ethereal weapons-- which they aren't.



> Actually Kishimoto has purposely hidden Susanoo's full capabilities, showcasing most of the highest form's capabilities with Itachi's. All while trying to show Sasuke's off as little as possible for now. If Kishimoto wanted to show that the Susanoo was radically different with each user, he wouldn't be skipping showing that particular form with anyone that's not Itachi.
> Like you said we've never seen these items from Sasuke's Susanoo; the manga hasn't allowed him to flesh out his level 4 Susanoo like it has allowed Itachi to do so.



And this is something that I really don't understand. Why hide it and for what purpose? After Itachi's resurrection, we've seen Sasuke used his Susano'o on panel more times compared to what we've seen of his brother. And during those times, we've also seen how it gradually developed to a complete version. There's absolutely no reason to think that Kishi had shown us that little as possible when we've already seen everything of Sasuke's Susano'o to begin with. The only one that's left for Kishi to show us is the "perfect" version akin to Madara's.



> Kakashi and Tobi's Kamui is a bad comparison as its the same jutsu with different applications; you can argue the same with both Koto eyes.



But Susano'o is technically the same jutsu that's possessed by Itachi and Sasuke, only that they differ in abilities and arsenals with respect to their wielders. . . Just like how Kamui is also the same jutsu but with different applications/abilities. No?



> As for Sasuke-Itachi, their eye powers would have to be the same given the towering evidence from the DB and manga tells us that all MS jutsu are the same*, but apparently some Uchiha can take it a step further e.g. Sasuke and Madara.
> 
> *Not including special cases like Shisui and Obito who had Senju cells.



They are the same jutsu only that their facets are different. If you believe that Tsukuyomi is Sasuke's other ocular power-- which was noted to be incomparable to Itachi's, then you'd also have to agree that their Susanoo is just as-- with different abilities and wield different weapons.



> When you can find the page that says Itachi's abilities transfer to Sasuke, that would be great. However Sasuke just meant that the EMS made him so much stronger, it is a higher level of Doujutsu compared to the MS.



It wasn't blatantly stated, but hinted-- which we're yet to see in the succeeding chapters. You are asking me to provide you a page where such thing was said when you are the one who's showing me scans of Sasuke's susanoo wielding both Itachi's weapons without any manga statement to confirm them . 



> Your point would have a leg to stand on if Sasuke didn't show traces of these jutsu/items prior the MS. However now saying "but it is because he has Itachi's eyes" comes across as a way to accept Sasuke has said jutsu/items.



Because Sasuke didn't have them hence no traces whatsoever.



> Actually I could say the same to you. The choice of designs for the shield/sword (especially the execution and patterns) should be more than enough to infer that Itachi isn't the only wielder of these items. Especially when the databook was very exact when it said Susanoo generally wields these items, not Itachi. The same entry which said there were other Susanoo users.



I did say that the databook entry (along with the distinguishing characteristics) could've only been referring to Itachi's Susano'o since he's the first Mangekyo user to use it on panel where everything has to be based on it.



> Zetsu is not a good source to cling to when saying the items are unique when this is clearly a guy who doesn't know the MS inside-out. For example he didn't seem to know what Amaterasu looked like till the Uchiha battle, and he didn't even know Susanoo existed.



Except that Zetsu knows what Amaterasu is, especially its ability. He only didn't know what it look like until it was shown, but he still knew about it. And why is not Zetsu's statement a good source when it's the author's gist behind it? If you think that such manga statement is not reliable, then you'll also have to say that the author himself is not as reliable.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 20, 2013)

Gulzar said:


> Itachi may have less stamina, but he can do more than Sasuke with less effort.
> 
> He's smarter and faster than Sasuke, and has a superior Susano'o to boot.



Sasuke caught Itachi with a chidori, sent Itachi flying through the roof, plot saved him. This was hebi Sasuke too.

Actually Sasuke can do more with less. Kirin; Huge as hell, unavoidable and requires no chakra except heating the sky up, 1 well placed enton or dragon balls could do.

Faster? Sasuke reacted to v2 Raikage and plenty more to back that one instance. But I put them about the same speed with Sasuke having better reactions slightly. Actually Itachi doesn't have a better Susanoo.

EntonBlade and Totsuka vs Susanoo.

Both can get through skeletal skage. 
Entonblade can get through an non yata mirror armored Susanoo. Totsuka can not. I say this because Enton has shown to have greater cutting power than Totsuka, plus Orochimaru's sword could cut through anything so the opposite of that would be one that can't cut anything. 

EntonBlade=Yata Mirror- I say this because. Enton would envelop the ym but I don't see how it counters it, if it repels all attacks like some fans think than what chakra composition does it require? And I am sure that Enton would eat through Susanoo. 

The factor in this match isn't Susanoo, YM, or Totsuka, but Amaterasu and Enton. That is why Sasuke takes this; he has much better control of Amaterasu, more chakra, and EMS. It also helps that he can use Amaterasu and enton with a fully powered Susanoo while Itachi has never shown to use 2 MS jutsus at the same time.

I look at this way

Strength- Sasuke
Taijutsu- Sasuke, lightning affinity overwhelms in CQC and don't say that ninjutsu as I consider taijutsu now a days CQC abilities.
Genjutsu- Sasuke, MS genjutsu aside of which both are able to break; Sasuke used his genjutsu skillfully against Danzo, where Itachis are plain as day but since u don't have the sharingan you can't break it. Sasuke has the sharingan, Danzo had the sharingan, Itachi had the Sharingan...Sasuke broke out of Itachis, Sasuke put Danzo(a highly skilled shinobi with one of the most powerful genjutsus in his arsenal).
Handseals-Itachi, but useless
Chakra capacity- Sasuke, easily
Chakra control- Sasuke, controlling Kirin, being able to use 2 ms jutsus at the same time. Itachi has chakra saving techniques but Sasuke's techniques are more effective in combat.
Defense(unbuffed)-Sasuke, took a lot of hard hits and has survived. I always viewed Itachi as being weak.
Intelligence- Sasuke, easily. I have seen nothing of Itachi to support he had even mid level battle intelligence, Sasuke had to be tricky and adapt on the fly. The entire battle against Deidara(Itachi went in a put him in a genjutsu before the battle started(just see that as Itachi knowing he couldn't deal with a persons skillset such as Deidara's), the Danzo fight.


And if they was in Base, Sasuke would wreck.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 20, 2013)

Gulzar said:


> Can we start calling Black Zetsu Madara? Because that's exactly who it is.



No it just means that the creature Madara created had his personality and ideology.

I see has Black Zetsu-Madara's will, White Zetsu-Hashirama's Will with Madaras being the dominate one as it is the original piece of Zetsu.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 20, 2013)

@IchLiebe

 Well said. It's obvious MS Sasuke has improved so much from Hebi Sasuke in terms of Taijutsu and Speed (or at least Reactions)

 One question, what is V1 and V2 Raikage? I never saw anything in the fight that suggested Raikage having 2 levels of strength.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Aug 21, 2013)

Sigh........

EMS Sasuke vs. Itachi.

They both have Amaterasu.
They both have Susano'o.
Itachi has Tskuyomi, and Sasuke has Enton: Kagutsuchi.

The difference however is Tskuyomi hasn't been as useful as Sasuke's Enton/Enton:Kagutuschi.(At least not in part two)


*Spoiler*: __ 



Presenting Sasuke's, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ways to utilize enton program.




Itachi has three DISTINCT doujutsu ability, and while that enhances his versatility; Sasuke's second Dojutsu not only is capable of functioning independently from the rest, it enhances the potency of his other two.

Itachi's Tskuyomi, while still being very potent theoretically, hasn't been what it was in part 1. In fact, in part two, Tsukuyomi has been Itachi's least utilized MS jutsu. And unfortunately for Itachi, Sasuke is one of the few that can actually break it.

Itachi fans/others uttering that his Susano'o is better, you most certainly couldn't be referring to the offensive end.

Offensively: Totsuka seals, right? Well Enton burns. Not much of a difference there IMO, as the only thing Totsuka would be able to deal with that enton couldn't is Edo's.

The difference is that Totsuka is only accessible when Itachi is utilizing his most advance Susano'o. Sasuke is able to gain access to his "Enton property" with any form of Susano'o.

The difference is that Totsuka has to STAB IT'S OPPONENT, kinda tough here, to seal. Sasuke's enton variants only need to touch it's opponent to apply it's special property, and he has more TOOLS TO TOUCH ITACHI WITH THEM. 

The difference between Itachi and Sasuke is that the later has a much, much more modified MS set.

Finally to address the issue of Izanami, lol you serious? 

Izanami was a plot device for Kabuto, until proven otherwise.

What are the best arguments for Izanami? Using it like Sasuke utilized "TRADITIONAL SHARINGAN GENJUTSU" here? Or here? Or Itachi, here.

So Itachi's going to waist an eye, which you know means death if it fails, to do something he may be capable of with sharingan genjutsu? But oh of course, we've seen Sasuke deal with all of Itachi's genjutsu with the three tomoe sharingan. I wounder how it with do against a sharingan that is two tiers above that.

The bottom line is that Izanami doesn't have enough info to hold anyone but individuals with Kabuto's symptoms. 

So with Izanami being a none factor, and Sasuke possessing not only the more powerful Dojutsu, but the more "Potent/Current" MS set, I see no reason why he couldn't finally be put above Itachi.


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## MysteriousD (Aug 21, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Sasuke caught Itachi with a chidori, sent Itachi flying through the roof, plot saved him. This was hebi Sasuke too.
> 
> Actually Sasuke can do more with less. Kirin; Huge as hell, unavoidable and requires no chakra except heating the sky up, 1 well placed enton or dragon balls could do.
> 
> ...



*Itachi was given EMS Sasuke's chakra capacity in the intro information*. 

Sasuke above Itachi in Intelligence? That just says you dont like Itachi because its not true and was never portrayed in the manga as anything similar. 

All feats in the manga battle between the two were from a sick, near blind, holding back, not trying to kill Sasuke, Itachi. Things have changed now... Itachi is healthy has his full blinding speed and plenty of chakra.

Sasuke above Itachi in genjutsu? Lolno   . Itachi is known worldwide for his genjutsu ability and the op didnt lock/restrict koto as well. 

He also didnt use this/these unnamed Illusion(s) on Sasuke, which he could control you with.
slapped

Ill say again Itachi wasnt trying to kill Sasuke or even brutally torture him until he was paralyzed.
We saw what even a subtle Illusion could do in the Danzo fight, and this is a serious Itachi.

Expect a real Tsyukiomi as well.. picture something worse than Kakashi's treatment in part one. Minus Itachi getting any fatigue at all because he has Sasuke level chakra.

Taijutsu Sasuke got manhandled. And Itachi wasnt at full speed (again)

Chidori and all its variants are ninjutsu. So maybe Nintaijutsu he can get Itachi but not pure Taijutsu.

Strength wise? Itachi did this (1.05)


Yea he 1handed Kisame just like Kisame 1handed him. Itachi in strength by far.

Thecircumstances of Sasuke breaking Tsyukiomi are questionable as he had to activate *CS stage 2* to do so. It makes you wonder if CS disrupted his chakra and broke it, sortaa like a perfect jin thing...

Anyway he doesnt have that now 

Totsuka also has a 100% solo record as its never been used without having an immediate and permanent effect. It seals anything it pierces and Susanno is no different.

Also even if a blade doesnt break through when it stabs something, it leaves a sometimes unnoticeable pinprick which still counts as a pierce or poke 

Either way if Sasuke's susanno gets hit with totsuka we have no reason to believe it wouldnt seal it on contact. NONE


Other than that Itachi reads his lil bro like only he can
slapped

and sooner rather than later Sasuke loses.

In the battle of attrition here they both fall equal because in the OP info they made it that way 

Toodles


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## Elite Uchiha (Aug 21, 2013)

MysteriousD said:


> *Strength wise? Itachi did this (1.05)
> *
> 
> Yea he 1handed Kisame just like Kisame 1handed him. Itachi in strength by far.



Can't believe you just posted a non canonical anime fight to prove feats .....


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## Garcher (Aug 21, 2013)

itachi oneshots him with totsuka blade :


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## IchLiebe (Aug 21, 2013)

MysteriousD said:


> *Itachi was given EMS Sasuke's chakra capacity in the intro information*.


 I know, but I still give Sasuke chakra control.





> Sasuke above Itachi in Intelligence? That just says you dont like Itachi because its not true and was never portrayed in the manga as anything similar.


 He figured out Izanagi and countered it with a sharingan genjutsu against someone with sharingan. That takes a high level of intellect. Itachi "Lets just attack with everything we got" Naruto "What if it misses?" Itachi "gravity will guide our attacks"...? My 5 year old nephew could come up with that. Itachi has shown no feats of having above average intellect.





> All feats in the manga battle between the two were from a sick, near blind, holding back, not trying to kill Sasuke, Itachi. Things have changed now... Itachi is healthy has his full blinding speed and plenty of chakra.


 I don't see how Itachi being sick hindered his chakra nor speed, if anything it would've been strength. He burned Sasuke in half hoping that Sasuke had a way to regenerate. That was hebi Sasuke who should've killed Itachi with the Chidori. Now this is EMS Sasuke a much more powerful version.





> Sasuke above Itachi in genjutsu? Lolno   . Itachi is known worldwide for his genjutsu ability and the op didnt lock/restrict koto as well.


 I don't consider Itachi to have KotoA anymore. First of all its not his genjutsu, second of all he gave it to Naruto then destroyed it before EMS Sasuke was introduced...So technically KotoA isn't in Itachi's arsenal anymore, its in Naruto or atleast it was before it was destroyed. Also it takes 10 years to cooldown and I highly doubt its cooled down. So even if Itachi does we are still in the same time as the day is in the manga...So Kotoa if available to Itachi is useless as it was used less than a year ago.





> He also didnt use this/these unnamed Illusion(s) on Sasuke, which he could control you with.
> _aware_


 Oh you mean the Illusions that he never showed to have or the capability to have? The one were jounins without ever even seeing the other said character in the manga much less their moveset said Itachi was capable of? Sorry but that was Obito that was able to control people with genjutsu never Itachi.





> Ill say again Itachi wasnt trying to kill Sasuke or even brutally torture him until he was paralyzed.


 Im not sure what your talking about. How would he paralyze Sasuke without Sasuke breaking the genjutsu? His actions up until Orochimaru say otherwise.





> We saw what even a subtle Illusion could do in the Danzo fight, and this is a serious Itachi.


 Who has never took advantage of subtle genjutsu but uses genjutsu that is plain as day.





> Expect a real Tsyukiomi as well.. picture something worse than Kakashi's treatment in part one. Minus Itachi getting any fatigue at all because he has Sasuke level chakra.


 So all the other Tsukuyomis were...fake? Sasuke done broke Tsukuyomi...try again. The fatigue is part of the repercussions of using Tsukuyomi. After the first tsukuyomi Itachi still had enough chakra left to throw a few Amaterasu's and manifest Susanoo for a time being, but was unable to dodge a simple rigged shuriken.





> Taijutsu Sasuke got manhandled. And Itachi wasnt at full speed (again)


 Show me were this supposed illness(I call side effects from MS as Sasuke has shown the same symptoms throughout the manga.) hindered his speed or reactions.





> Chidori and all its variants are ninjutsu. So maybe Nintaijutsu he can get Itachi but not pure Taijutsu.


 and I said that in this day people don't get anywhere using taijutsu alone. A punch ain't doing shit unless your Lee and Gai who still need to augment their power to do significant damage.





> Strength wise? Itachi did this (1.05)
> 
> 
> Yea he 1handed Kisame just like Kisame 1handed him. Itachi in strength by far.


 Good job, using a video game. And to be fair after 3 swipes with Samahada canonically he would die of chakra exhaustion. And I loved how Itachi katon=Kisame's higher level suiton. 





> Thecircumstances of Sasuke breaking Tsyukiomi are questionable as he had to activate *CS stage 2* to do so. It makes you wonder if CS disrupted his chakra and broke it, sortaa like a perfect jin thing...


 So your saying that Sasuke and Orochimaru was talking to each other like jins talk to bijuus. Your funny.





> Anyway he doesnt have that now


 Yes now he has not only the MS, but EM fucking S. Sasuke said best himself...the Sharingan is just a tool and whoever is better at using it will win the genjutsu battle.





> Totsuka also has a 100% solo record as its never been used without having an immediate and permanent effect. It seals anything it pierces and Susanno is no different.


 Permanent yes, immediate, no. If it was immediate then Orochimaru, nor Nagato wouldn't have been able to reply but immediatly sealed up. And that leads me to believe if you break the connection before the sealing starts then you will be free. It can't seal Susanoo, its a manifestation of chakra, and it hasn't shown the feats saying that its capable to bust or pierce Susanoo.





> Also even if a blade doesnt break through when it stabs something, it leaves a sometimes unnoticeable pinprick which still counts as a pierce or poke


 DO you know the definition of pierce? To penetrate or run through. If your fucking a chick and you rub your penis on her vagina... You didn't penetrate her. If someone shoots a tank with a bullet and the bullet bounces off, the people aren't going to rejoice that they just pierced a tank, they are going to get something better next time.





> Either way if Sasuke's susanno gets hit with totsuka we have no reason to believe it wouldnt seal it on contact. NONE


 Well of course it would but how is Sasuke going to get hit, he has Sharingan prediction, Enton, and Susanoo. If Itachi gets hit with Amaterasu, Chidori, Enton blade, Susanoo arrow, Kirin, then he's dead. 





> Other than that Itachi reads his lil bro like only he can
> _aware_
> 
> and sooner rather than later Sasuke loses.


 WTF?





> In the battle of attrition here they both fall equal because in the OP info they made it that way
> 
> Toodles


and Sasuke will be able to use Kirin as he did with no chakra in the manga. Toodles .


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 21, 2013)

MysteriousD said:


> *Itachi was given EMS Sasuke's chakra capacity in the intro information*.



 Having the same amt. of chakra doesn't mean they'll have the same chakra consumption.



> Sasuke above Itachi in Intelligence? That just says you dont like Itachi because its not true and was never portrayed in the manga as anything similar.



 I do agree that Itachi could be more intelligent than Sasuke, but that doesn't change the fact that Sasuke analyzes the situation pretty quickly. (Deidera and Danzo come to mind)



> All feats in the manga battle between the two were from a sick, near blind, holding back, not trying to kill Sasuke, Itachi. Things have changed now... Itachi is healthy has his full blinding speed and plenty of chakra.



 Itachi wasn't holding back though. 



> Sasuke above Itachi in genjutsu? Lolno   . Itachi is known worldwide for his genjutsu ability and the op didnt lock/restrict koto as well.



 I do agree with this.



> He also didnt use this/these unnamed Illusion(s) on Sasuke, which he could control you with.
> _aware_



 Not that far in the manga, so I can't say anything.



> Ill say again Itachi wasnt trying to kill Sasuke or even brutally torture him until he was paralyzed.
> We saw what even a subtle Illusion could do in the Danzo fight, and this is a serious Itachi.



 Unfortunately, Sasuke with the EMS should be able to counter all of Itachi's genjutsus considering he got through a Tsukyomi with a 3 tomoe Sharingan. Sasuke's sharingan prowess was able to trick Danzo, a guy who's witnessed Itachi's Tsukyomi at first-hand.



> Expect a real Tsyukiomi as well.. picture something worse than Kakashi's treatment in part one. Minus Itachi getting any fatigue at all because he has Sasuke level chakra.
> 
> Taijutsu Sasuke got manhandled. And Itachi wasnt at full speed (again)



 No he wasn't. That was part of the genjutsu. He managed to keep up with Itachi after the Tsukyomi and both used the a lot of chakra during that Genjutsu clash.



> Chidori and all its variants are ninjutsu. So maybe Nintaijutsu he can get Itachi but not pure Taijutsu.



 With his improvements after getting the MS such as keeping up with the Raikage, he can definitely keep up with Itachi fairly well. I'm not saying he'll win in pure Taijutsu, but Sasuke has certainly come a long way.

 With Susanoo and Amaterasu, this isn't going to be a Pure Taijutsu fight in which case, Sasuke can most likely keep up, or almost keep up considering the feats he showed at the Kage Summit.



> Strength wise? Itachi did this (1.05)
> 
> 
> Yea he 1handed Kisame just like Kisame 1handed him. Itachi in strength by far.



 Itachi isn't far stronger than Kisame lol.



> Thecircumstances of Sasuke breaking Tsyukiomi are questionable as he had to activate *CS stage 2* to do so. It makes you wonder if CS disrupted his chakra and broke it, sortaa like a perfect jin thing...
> 
> Anyway he doesnt have that now



 Are you saying EMS = 3 Tomoe Sharingan? Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god.

 Sorry, but that comment really got me. 

 Also, the CS was part of the genjutsu. It's not like the CS is going to enhance his Sharingan prowess. That was never stated. CS only enhances your stamina, strength, and speed.



> Totsuka also has a 100% solo record as its never been used without having an immediate and permanent effect. It seals anything it pierces and Susanno is no different.



 Enton begs to differ. Then again, I'm not as far in the manga yet, so I haven't seen Itachi's skills in action.



> Also even if a blade doesnt break through when it stabs something, it leaves a sometimes unnoticeable pinprick which still counts as a pierce or poke



 And Kirin would do much more than that ....



> [ Either way if Sasuke's susanno gets hit with totsuka we have no reason to believe it wouldnt seal it on contact. NONE



 What? It won't seal a live entity. That sounds a bit ridiculous. 




> Other than that Itachi reads his lil bro like only he can
> _aware_
> 
> and sooner rather than later Sasuke loses.



 Not that far yet, so I won't read the scan.



> In the battle of attrition here they both fall equal because in the OP info they made it that way
> 
> Toodles



 EMS Sasuke should be stronger than a Healthy Itachi if he wants to match Naruto to the very end.

 I personally think Kage Summit Sasuke far surpassed Sick Itachi from what he's shown.


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## The Gallant Hermit (Aug 22, 2013)

Jiraiya rules, shut up uchiha's fans.


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 22, 2013)

And get out when here has nothing to Jiraiya, hater.

On topic, I believe EMS Sasuke has surpassed Itachi. Although Itachi is better in basic ninja skills, EMS is simply in another level. Sasuke's powerhouses is too much for Itachi to win.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 22, 2013)

EMS Sasuke wins. He can basically camp out in a Susano'o ribcage, force Itachi to use his MS, drain him of chakra that way, before fully forming his V4 Susano'o and hitting a weakened Itachi with a barrage of Enton Yasaka Magatama.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 22, 2013)

Itachi wins.

IC Sasuke will charge towards Itachi Totsuka blade recklessly.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 22, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Itachi wins.
> 
> IC Sasuke will charge towards Itachi Totsuka blade recklessly.


In character Sasuke puts up Susano'o and begins spamming Amaterasu and Enton while in character Itachi sticks to base.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 22, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Itachi wins.
> 
> IC Sasuke will charge towards Itachi Totsuka blade recklessly.



 He witnessed what it did to Orochimaru.

 He's not going to make a stupid move like that.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 22, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> He witnessed what it did to Orochimaru.
> 
> He's not going to make a stupid move like that.


Nor can Itachi even use Susano'o liberally like Sasuke.


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## MysteriousD (Aug 22, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> I know, but I still give Sasuke chakra control. He figured out Izanagi and countered it with a sharingan genjutsu against someone with sharingan. That takes a high level of intellect. Itachi "Lets just attack with everything we got" Naruto "What if it misses?" Itachi "gravity will guide our attacks"...? My 5 year old nephew could come up with that. *Itachi has shown no feats of having above average intellect*. I don't see how Itachi being sick hindered his chakra nor speed, if anything it would've been strength. He burned Sasuke in half hoping that Sasuke had a way to regenerate. That was hebi Sasuke who should've killed Itachi with the Chidori. Now this is EMS Sasuke a much more powerful version. I don't consider Itachi to have KotoA anymore. First of all its not his genjutsu, second of all he gave it to Naruto then destroyed it before EMS Sasuke was introduced...So technically KotoA isn't in Itachi's arsenal anymore, its in Naruto or atleast it was before it was destroyed. Also it takes 10 years to cooldown and I highly doubt its cooled down. So even if Itachi does we are still in the same time as the day is in the manga...So Kotoa if available to Itachi is useless as it was used less than a year ago. Oh you mean the Illusions that he never showed to have or the capability to have? The one were jounins without ever even seeing the other said character in the manga much less their moveset said Itachi was capable of? Sorry but that was Obito that was able to control people with genjutsu never Itachi. Im not sure what your talking about. How would he paralyze Sasuke without Sasuke breaking the genjutsu? His actions up until Orochimaru say otherwise. Who has never took advantage of subtle genjutsu but uses genjutsu that is plain as day. So all the other Tsukuyomis were...fake? Sasuke done broke Tsukuyomi...try again. The fatigue is part of the repercussions of using Tsukuyomi. After the first tsukuyomi Itachi still had enough chakra left to throw a few Amaterasu's and manifest Susanoo for a time being, but was unable to dodge a simple rigged shuriken. Show me were this supposed illness(I call side effects from MS as Sasuke has shown the same symptoms throughout the manga.) hindered his speed or reactions. and I said that in this day people don't get anywhere using taijutsu alone. A punch ain't doing shit unless your Lee and Gai who still need to augment their power to do significant damage. Good job, using a video game. And to be fair after 3 swipes with Samahada canonically he would die of chakra exhaustion. And I loved how Itachi katon=Kisame's higher level suiton.  So your saying that Sasuke and Orochimaru was talking to each other like jins talk to bijuus. Your funny. Yes now he has not only the MS, but EM fucking S. Sasuke said best himself...the Sharingan is just a tool and whoever is better at using it will win the genjutsu battle. Permanent yes, immediate, no. If it was immediate then Orochimaru, nor Nagato wouldn't have been able to reply but immediatly sealed up. And that leads me to believe if you break the connection before the sealing starts then you will be free. It can't seal Susanoo, its a manifestation of chakra, and it hasn't shown the feats saying that its capable to bust or pierce Susanoo. DO you know the definition of pierce? To penetrate or run through. If your fucking a chick and you rub your penis on her vagina... You didn't penetrate her. If someone shoots a tank with a bullet and the bullet bounces off, the people aren't going to rejoice that they just pierced a tank, they are going to get something better next time. Well of course it would but how is Sasuke going to get hit, he has Sharingan prediction, Enton, and Susanoo. If Itachi gets hit with Amaterasu, Chidori, Enton blade, Susanoo arrow, Kirin, then he's dead.  WTF?
> and Sasuke will be able to use Kirin as he did with no chakra in the manga. Toodles .



Stopped taking you serious after the bolded 

You had a good comeback for much of my points but if nothing else defeats Sasuke
Link removed

THAT ability will and this fight is IC EMS Sasuke (IN CANON) told Itachi he was perfect that mindscape greatly effects battles.

You dont fight well when you think you opponent is perfect and can defeat you. And Sasuke in all his fights uses his arrogance/confidence to guide his attacks. He doesnt have that in this fight


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## IchLiebe (Aug 22, 2013)

MysteriousD said:


> Stopped taking you serious after the bolded


 Well I see you didn't counter it.





> You had a good comeback for much of my points but if nothing else defeats Sasuke
> Link removed


? Elaborate please.





> THAT ability will and this fight is IC EMS Sasuke (IN CANON) told Itachi he was perfect that mindscape greatly effects battles.
> 
> 
> > IC EMS Sasuke immediately puts up Susanoo and spams Amaterasu and enton to get through Susanoo in less than a minute.
> ...


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 23, 2013)

Well, Sasuke clearly has a much more advanced Susano'o than Itachi does at the moment and he also isn't crippled by stamina restraints. Itachi's far more intelligent and conniving though, so it's probably a 50/50 overall, if Itachi doesn't have to worry about stamina. If he does, Sasuke can outlast him to a certain degree and well, Itachi's main advantages lay in having special equipment to boost his Susano'o, however, Sasuke makes those advantages null by having them as well. 

If you restrict Susano'o, this becomes more of a fight and Itachi gets the overall advantage via 75/25 because Tsukuyomi is almost instant win and both can cancel out each others Amaterasu's. If Sasuke relies only on his MS, he'll lose but if he uses his lightning element more and more, he can win because that will force Itachi to go on the defensive.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 23, 2013)

If their stamina happens to be equalized, the victor is harder to determine; the former was Itachi's burden, quite frankly. 

Healthy Itachi >/= EMS Sasuke > Sick Itachi

Because Itachi/Sasuke have similar arsenals, chakra levels are undeniably significant. That said, a vast amount of difficulty is evident.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 23, 2013)

Almost going to be able to see EMS Sasuke in action, so then I can make my decision.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 23, 2013)

How is Tsukuyomi an 'instant win'? Sasuke broke it with a base Sharingan, how the hell would he be susceptible to it with a _Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan?_ Can we please stop overrating the attack?


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 23, 2013)

^ It's because people are stubborn and making excuses that Itachi held back with Tsukyomi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 23, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ It's because people are stubborn and making excuses that Itachi held back with Tsukyomi.


Tsukuyomi hasn't been useful against any Top Tier shinobi at all in the manga, or even High Tier's. Its best performance was against pre-Genin Sasuke, Genin Sasuke, and Part I Kakashi.


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## Baroxio (Aug 23, 2013)

Well there are arguments for either.

Either Itachi's Imperial Regalia give his Susano the edge over Sasuke's Susano, or Sasuke's superior stamina gives him the edge over Itachi's stamina.

I wouldn't underestimate Itachi's Totsuka either, considering that Itachi's weaker Base Susano sword was able to casually slice a Sage enhanced version of Kimimaro's bones, which were able to clash with chakra blades and the like. It's entirely possible that Totsuka, a legendary sword, could pierce Sasuke's Susano.

As for the stamina argument, Sick itachi outlasted a Sasuke who could fall back on the Curse Seal, and he did so in a day where he used at least 3 clones and multiple MS jutsu. Itachi may have less stamina than Sasuke for sure, but his chakra control is also much better than Sasuke's meaning that the chakra he uses is never wasted. A healthy Itachi could possibly outlast Sasuke due to this reason...unless EMS gave Sasuke a stamina boost or a decrease in chakra cost for the MS.

But all of the above is pure speculation. The correct answer is, they're pretty much equal until Sasuke gets Perfect Susano or another powerup that he likely already has access to but has never used yet.


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## Cord (Aug 23, 2013)

Since Sasuke already has Itachi's eyes, can't we assume that he's also inherited his brother's Susano'o weapons-- the Yata and Totsuka?


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 23, 2013)

In regards to Tsukuyomi, while I'm not saying it would be a deciding factor in this fight, I don't think the real danger of it is the strength of the genjutsu, but rather - like with all of Itachi's illusions - the effects and the speed of the technique itself. I believe Sasuke would be able to break it at this point; he was able to do it with the Sharingan (albeit, with some help from his cursed seal and with Itachi holding back slightly) and his eyes, along with his general skill and prowess with genjutsu, have been upgraded a lot since then. The problem is how long it takes him to realize it's an illusion, how long it takes him to break out of it and whether or not he can do both things before Itachi can do some damage on him. When Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke in the Uchiha fight, it was only halfway through the illusion that Sasuke realized that it wasn't real, after putting up some very visible physical resistance against Itachi's illusory assaults. Of course, Itachi gets hit with a toll as well, but Sasuke isn't getting away scott-free after getting hit directly with the jutsu, upgraded eyes or not.

Honestly, though, considering that a small part of the Uchiha fight was dedicated to showing that illusions are useless against Sasuke and his increases in power level since then, this is a really small factor - one I doubt Itachi would even use. Why would he use a chakra expensive technique knowing it would fail? Itachi is undoubtedly more skilled at genjutsu, but the gap in skill is no longer as such that he would be able to completely overwhelm Sasuke with one. The deciding factor of this battle, for me, are the difference in the two's abilities: Sasuke's superior stamina and enton versus Itachi's unique Susano'o.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 23, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How is Tsukuyomi an 'instant win'? Sasuke broke it with a base Sharingan, how the hell would he be susceptible to it with a _Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan?_ Can we please stop overrating the attack?



Itachi was holding back so that he wouldn't have to kill his younger brother, otherwise, the whole fight would have been a moot point.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 24, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Itachi was holding back so that he wouldn't have to kill his younger brother, otherwise, the whole fight would have been a moot point.



 Nothing implies he held back with the genjutsu. Itachi seemed quite surprised when he broke out of Tsukyomi.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> Nothing implies he held back with the genjutsu. Itachi seemed quite surprised when he broke out of Tsukyomi.


Itachi toned down his fighting ferocity all around, even Zetsu, was catching on to his lackluster performance.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 24, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Itachi was holding back so that he wouldn't have to kill his younger brother, otherwise, the whole fight would have been a moot point.





Ryuzaki said:


> Itachi toned down his fighting ferocity all around, even Zetsu, was catching on to his lackluster performance.


Itachi couldn't 'tone down' his Tsukuyomi or the genjutsu battle. Zetsu noticed his _physical abilities_ had deteriorated. 

Itachi only honestly held back when Susano'o came into play, other than that Sasuke genuinely broke his Tsukuyomi and countered his Amaterasu while overpowering him handily in base. Sasuke was built up to being able to break Tsukuyomi since Part I and was shown during the final battle.

The whole 'holding back the entire fight' is not only a exaggeration, its a downright lie since Itachi was shocked SEVERAL fricking times at Sasuke's performance.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi couldn't 'tone down' his Tsukuyomi or the genjutsu battle. Zetsu noticed his _physical abilities_ had deteriorated.
> 
> Itachi only honestly held back when Susano'o came into play, other than that Sasuke genuinely broke his Tsukuyomi and countered his Amaterasu while overpowering him handily in base. Sasuke was built up to being able to break Tsukuyomi since Part I and was shown during the final battle.
> 
> The whole 'holding back the entire fight' is not only a exaggeration, its a downright lie since Itachi was shocked SEVERAL fricking times at Sasuke's performance.


Sasuke broke a weakened version of Tsukuyomi.

Case in point, Itachi wasn't at full health at all, lack of physical strength and psychological state of mind also effect overall performance, whether mental or physical it doesn't matter. If you've already made up your mind that you aren't going to kill someone, then subconsciously you are always holding back. It's no different than fighting an annoying brother, regardless of how you may feel at the time, you wouldn't pick up a stake and plunge through his heart. 

Itachi was basically at that point in his fight against Sasuke, he didn't want to kill his brother because that would mean the last 7 years of Sasuke's life were for nothing and he really didn't need to protect him at all. It would be an entire contradiction to his whole character and essence. 

Hence why, I believe he held back, you are free to choose to believe what you want.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 24, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Sasuke broke a weakened version of Tsukuyomi.
> 
> Case in point, Itachi wasn't at full health at all, lack of physical strength and psychological state of mind also effect overall performance, whether mental or physical it doesn't matter. If you've already made up your mind that you aren't going to kill someone, then subconsciously you are always holding back. It's no different than fighting an annoying brother, regardless of how you may feel at the time, you wouldn't pick up a stake and plunge through his heart.
> 
> ...


Honestly, there is _no_ 'nice' way to mindrape someone, or nice way to burn someone. Itachi had to have _some_ intent to kill Sasuke so he doesn't get wise in Itachi holding back. The only time in the entire fricking battle where Itachi was honestly holding back is when Susano'o was unleashed and Itachi didn't make any offensive moves against Sasuke: no Yasaka Magatama or Totsuka slashes directed at him.

Sasuke honestly surprised him a few times and Itachi freely admitted without Susano'o, Kirin'd have wiped him off the map.There is no reason to believe Sasuke was being coddled by Tsukuyomi too when the manga built up him breaking it since Part I. 

Its more like cherry picking you're doing Ryuzaki to make Itachi out to be stronger than he actually was.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 25, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> I would disagree if this extra asset that you speak of is Kagutsuchi. Because I also believe that it's Sasuke's other ocular power rather than just an extra asset of Amaterasu. So no, the shield that I was referring to isn't just an extra asset, but his weapon per se.



The extra asset is the bow, which Sasuke as in addition to Susanoo's sword a shield. Kagutsuchi counts as an asset to Susanoo if he can use it to coat Sasuke's items. It just happens Kagutsuchi happens to be a good asset overall.



> I see nothing of the sort. Because that looks just about the same as the bow-shield's pattern. Also, the "pattern" in the first scan you gave me is ambiguous enough for us to assume that it's the Yata and not the bow shield because either patterns were drawn almost alike. That's why identifications of those items are necessary if we wanted to prove something here.



The bow has the same pattern as Yata, except it has a bow extension. 
Identification is only necessarily if Sasuke is using something completely different. Kishi doesn't have to identify something over and over when we've got the relevant visual cues. Then there's the databook which canonically states that the items Itachi used are universal Susanoo items. It isn't a stretch to believe special Uchiha like Madara and Sasuke can actually have more items in addition to the generic ones.




> And this is something that I really don't understand. Why hide it and for what purpose? After Itachi's resurrection, we've seen Sasuke used his Susano'o on panel more times compared to what we've seen of his brother. And during those times, we've also seen how it gradually developed to a complete version. There's absolutely no reason to think that Kishi had shown us that little as possible when we've already seen everything of Sasuke's Susano'o to begin with. The only one that's left for Kishi to show us is the "perfect" version akin to Madara's.



The same reason he's hidden the Rinnegan's true capabilities, the same reason he hid a lot of the Bijuu's capabilities... he likely plans to show them off later. 

We've seen Sasuke use Susnaoo, but _not_ the form which has Totsuka and Yata... In fact Itachi hasn't used it too often either. Indicating that Kishi is hiding it for some reason and has only allowed Itachi to use said Susanoo in battle. 
Kishimoto would probably show us Sasuke's perfect Susanoo when he shows us Sasuke's complete Susanoo's capabilities. It isn't any coincidence that the latter was only used by Itachi, the form with the items in question. Kishi has only had Sasuke Sasuke use the form briefly, wherein Sasuke relies on lesser forms currently and has had Madara skip it entirely.

So it is evident that the form's abilities are being hidden.



> But Susano'o is technically the same jutsu that's possessed by Itachi and Sasuke, only that they differ in abilities and arsenals with respect to their wielders. . . Just like how Kamui is also the same jutsu but with different applications/abilities. No?



I'll put it this way, if Obito had both his eyes then he'd have his Kamui alongside Kakashi's. If Shisui had both his eyes, he'd have the Koto variant that Danzo and the crow used. It seems the "same jutsu; different applications' rule only applies to MS Uchiha with Senju DNA. 

We can't readily say the same for Sasuke and Itachi for Kishi keeps the former's complete Susanoo hidden.



> They are the same jutsu only that their facets are different. If you believe that Tsukuyomi is Sasuke's other ocular power-- which was noted to be incomparable to Itachi's, then you'd also have to agree that their Susanoo is just as-- with different abilities and wield different weapons.



We were told the Tsukuyomi that a chakra deprived Sasuke used on Danzo wasn't comparable to Itachi's. Nothing about the Tsukuyomi used on Bee or the Kumo shinobi.

As far as we know, the MS is just like the SM, the patterns are different for each user but the abilities are the same. Though with the SM, the place where SM is learnt likely has its own style of how to make use of natural energy.



> It wasn't blatantly stated, but hinted-- which we're yet to see in the succeeding chapters. You are asking me to provide you a page where such thing was said when you are the one who's showing me scans of Sasuke's susanoo wielding both Itachi's weapons without any manga statement to confirm them .



I'm saying the databook says it and the imagery in the manga supports the notion that Sasuke has the items Itachi has. As well as the fact Sasuke's complete Susanoo is currently being hidden, which can be taken as a hint in-itself.

As for Sasuke obtaining Itachi's ocular powers, we were just told that the EMS would make Sasuke stronger, not stack another MS power on it. Itachi told us that the EMS basically gives a MS without blindness and an extra jutsu. In other words, it is most likely that this extra jutsu is what made Sasuke stronger; much like how each Susanoo form made Sasuke stronger.



> Because Sasuke didn't have them hence no traces whatsoever.



The traces can be argued to be the imperfect shield and sword is Susanoo could use. Alongside the databook's support. 



> I did say that the databook entry (along with the distinguishing characteristics) could've only been referring to Itachi's Susano'o since he's the first Mangekyo user to use it on panel where everything has to be based on it.



The databook entry though could have also been referring to Susanoo in general. Remember, there has only been one complete Susanoo that has been fleshed out in battle - Itachi's. So chances are Sasuke/Madara's would follow suit and showcase the same items. In fact that very databook states that the Susanoo described was obtained by other Uchiha too.

So prior to Sasuke's MS showing Susanoo, the databook itself made note of the fact that particular Susanoo isn't unique to Itachi.



> Except that Zetsu knows what Amaterasu is, especially its ability. He only didn't know what it look like until it was shown, but he still knew about it. And why is not Zetsu's statement a good source when it's the author's gist behind it? If you think that such manga statement is not reliable, then you'll also have to say that the author himself is not as reliable.



He knows of Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. 

The author speaks through a character's perspective, not his own, when he's writing a character's speech. Black Zetsu knew of Amaterasu, but made it sound like its something anybody aware of its reputation (like Kakashi or C) would know the same amount as Zetsu in terms of Amaterasu.

In fact Kishimoto took special care to showcase Zetsu's unawareness of Susanoo. So Zetsu's word cannot be readily used to say the items are unique to Itachi, when the databook which came after Zetsu's comments make it specially clear that others obtained the Susanoo which wields Yata and Totsuka.


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## Laozy (Aug 25, 2013)

> Itachi has the same chakra capacity Sasuke has



This whole thread is f*kd from the very start. Sasuke has always had a relatively *HIGH* chakra capacity whereas Itachi has always had a very *LOW*, below-average, chakra capacity.

If Itachi gets a random powerup it only makes sense that Sasuke should be given something, too.

Anyway, Itachi's databook stats overpower Sasuke's. Sure, if you go by feats, this gets a lot trickier - but Sasuke has had much more screen/read time than Itachi has, so it makes sense that he has more feats to back him up.

By feats, Sasuke wins. He defeats a sick Itachi in CQC _before_ he awakens MS and then goes on to attain EMS.
Itachi has ordinary MS. What's to stop Sasuke from pulling up Susano'o for as much as he wants? They will both just be firing away Amaterasu at each other until Itachi goes blind anyway.

Besdies, in a *normal* Itachi vs. Sasuke scenario, where Itachi doesn't have the random powerup, Itachi runs out of chakra and Sasuke finishes him.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 25, 2013)

Databook stats shouldn't really be compared or used as an argument here since Sasuke's latest ones are horribly outdated.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 25, 2013)

Laozy said:


> This whole thread is f*kd from the very start. Sasuke has always had a relatively *HIGH* chakra capacity whereas Itachi has always had a very *LOW*, below-average, chakra capacity.
> 
> If Itachi gets a random powerup it only makes sense that Sasuke should be given something, too.
> 
> ...



The databook said Sasuke's scores would improve with the MS. So we've reason to believe that MS Sasuke wouldn't have the same stats as Hebi Sasuke.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 25, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The databook said Sasuke's scores would improve with the MS. So we've reason to believe that MS Sasuke wouldn't have the same stats as Hebi Sasuke.



There's also a pretty distinctive difference in stamina between current Sasuke and him before he implanted Itachi's eyes.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 25, 2013)

Itachi was pushing Sasuke as hard as he could.


Sasuke should've won via chidori. No matter what you argue it was a fight to the death and Sasuke just broke a tsukuyomi and Itachi some how blocked it with his bare hand and it had enough force to send him through the roof.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 25, 2013)

I believe this is Edo Itachi where his stamina isn't that low.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 25, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> There's also a pretty distinctive difference in stamina between current Sasuke and him before he implanted Itachi's eyes.



I was sceptical at first, but I've got to say that I agree. Especially when you consider that so far EMS Sasuke's done things that would've tired out MS Sasuke by now.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 25, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Honestly, there is _no_ 'nice' way to mindrape someone, or nice way to burn someone. Itachi had to have _some_ intent to kill Sasuke so he doesn't get wise in Itachi holding back. The only time in the entire fricking battle where Itachi was honestly holding back is when Susano'o was unleashed and Itachi didn't make any offensive moves against Sasuke: no Yasaka Magatama or Totsuka slashes directed at him.
> 
> Sasuke honestly surprised him a few times and Itachi freely admitted without Susano'o, Kirin'd have wiped him off the map.There is no reason to believe Sasuke was being coddled by Tsukuyomi too when the manga built up him breaking it since Part I.
> 
> Its more like cherry picking you're doing Ryuzaki to make Itachi out to be stronger than he actually was.


The mind cannot interpret what the eyes purposely fail to see.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 25, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> The mind cannot interpret what the eyes purposely fail to see.


So thats the reason why you can't give Sasuke the credit of defeating Tsukuyomi on his own without Itachi holding back against him?


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 25, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> So thats the reason why you can't give Sasuke the credit of defeating Tsukuyomi on his own without Itachi holding back against him?


I don't give him credit because the author himself retconned it like 20 chapters later. If Itachi didn't turn out to be hero and was actually out to kill him and Sasuke broke it, then yes, he deserves all the credit in the world. However, when finding out about his overall objective was to protect his younger brother, his entire fight because disqualified. 

It's as if you played a game of cards for a million dollars and your brother was the dealer, you won and after the game we find another deck of cards in your brothers pocket, you don't think the integrity of the game would be compromised?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 25, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> I don't give him credit because the author himself retconned it like 20 chapters later. If Itachi didn't turn out to be hero and was actually out to kill him and Sasuke broke it, then yes, he deserves all the credit in the world. However, when finding out about his overall objective was to protect his younger brother, his entire fight because disqualified.
> 
> It's as if you played a game of cards for a million dollars and your brother was the dealer, you won and after the game we find another deck of cards in your brothers pocket, you don't think the integrity of the game would be compromised?


There was no retcon. Itachi had to make everything look real. Sasuke would have been suspicious otherwise. Itachi had to fight him with nearly his full force so Sasuke wouldn't get suspicious or get wise. The ONLY time in the entire fucking fight when Itachi HONESTLY held back was with Susano'o. Otherwise-Sasuke legitimately broke Tsukuyomi, overpowered Itachi while Itachi was in base, and countered Amaterasu.

Ever since PART I Sasuke was built up to be able to break Tsukuyomi in their confrontation due to having Uchiha Blood and the Sharingan instead of the Sharingan solely.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 25, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Sasuke broke a weakened version of Tsukuyomi.



A weakened version of Tsukuyomi is what Sasuke used on Danzo at the end of their battle. Itachi used a full power one.



> Case in point, Itachi wasn't at full health at all, lack of physical strength and psychological state of mind also effect overall performance, whether mental or physical it doesn't matter. If you've already made up your mind that you aren't going to kill someone, then subconsciously you are always holding back. It's no different than fighting an annoying brother, regardless of how you may feel at the time, you wouldn't pick up a stake and plunge through his heart.



According to Zetsu all the health problems just meant Itachi was a bit slower and coughed blood, that's all.

As for when Itachi wouldn't kill Sasuke, that was clearly shown in the panels. Notice how Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu were used to attack Sasuke, then notice how Susanoo wasn't used on Sasuke offensively.

Susanoo was the only MS jutsu held back, in fact when Sasuke said Itachi tried to kill him with the MS, he only thought of two jutsu... Not including the jutsu that was actually held back.



> Itachi was basically at that point in his fight against Sasuke, he didn't want to kill his brother because that would mean the last 7 years of Sasuke's life were for nothing and he really didn't need to protect him at all. It would be an entire contradiction to his whole character and essence.



Part of those years was to make Sasuke as strong as possible. Apparently he succeeded in making Sasuke so strong that Susanoo was a necessity for Itachi in the battle.



> Hence why, I believe he held back, you are free to choose to believe what you want.



No one is contesting Itachi held back. However I only disagree with you with the extent he held back.


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## Tarot (Aug 25, 2013)

Regardless of whether you give Itachi equal chakra levels, EMS still reduces the strain of doujutsu and lets Sasuke outlast Itachi. On top of that, Enton spam would let Sasuke prep Kirin in the meantime of they both happen to lose their Susanoo at the same time. 
Plus the DB already states Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi with his


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 25, 2013)

Gulzar said:


> There's virtually no evidence for that, and the meager evidence there is proves quite weak.



Except Sasuke using the Tsukuyomi eye and there being the classic inverted panels when it was being explained.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 25, 2013)

Well, Tobi does explain that while Sasuke's Tsukyomi is weaker than Itachi's, he uses it very well as showcased against Danzo.


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## Sans (Aug 26, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> In character Sasuke puts up Susano'o and begins spamming Amaterasu and Enton while in character Itachi sticks to base.



Sasuke doesn't always resort to Susano'o as his opening move, although it is employed liberally.

Sasuke attempted to fight Ei without it initially. Against Mifune, Sasuke used kenjutsu and only used Susano'o in defence against Yoton. Susano'o was used instantly against Danzou, the man who was responsible for the Uchiha Massacre. Kakashi actually won a taijutsu skirmish with Sasuke, prompting Sasuke to employ his doujutsu. In the current fight, Sasuke has been using it interspersed with his standard arsenal, and in fact opened with the latter.

Itachi has a similar record with the Mangekyou. When facing Kirabi and Naruto, Itachi resorted to the Mangekyou after several brief bouts with his basic jutsu. After Nagato gained the upper-hand against Naruto and Kirabi, Susano'o was used instantly. Itachi's trump was also deployed quickly and often against Kabuto. While it is true that Itachi was operating with infinite stamina, he was also quick to utilise the Mangekyou against Kakashi, Sasuke and Jiraiya in Part I. During his other major fight with Hebi Sasuke, it was brought out quickly as well.

Sasuke suffers less strain from his doujutsu due to their more advanced state, but both shinobi are more than willing to use their visual powers as needed.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How is Tsukuyomi an 'instant win'? Sasuke broke it with a base Sharingan, how the hell would he be susceptible to it with a _Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan?_ Can we please stop overrating the attack?



Sasuke was out-classed by Itachi in their genjutsu struggle. Sasuke's final action is ranting that he can "discern reality" and launching a Chidori Eiso across the room at the mirror Itachi in his chair; proving that he has seen through Itachi's current genjutsu in front of him. Unfortunately, Itachi was never was revealed to be standing in front of him, after they ceased their genjutsu battle. 

So, Sasuke was unable to discern Itachi's multi-layered base Sharingan genjutsu. More importantly to this particular instance, there are two more pieces of evidence against Sasuke defeating Tsukiyomi. Firstly, after the battle when Obito is explaining the true course of events and claims that Itachi could have killed him at multiple instances, one of the flashbacks is to Tsukiyomi shattering. Implying of course; that Itachi deliberately held back in that instance. Secondly, the Databook outlines what is needed to break Tsukiyomi. You need superior genjutsu skill, Uchiha blood and the Mangekyou Sharingan.

In summation, everything points to Itachi allowing Sasuke to break out of Tsukiyomi. The only time their genjutsu prowess is compared Itachi unambiguously asserted to be Sasuke's superior, and Sasuke proved incapable of seeing through Itachi's regular ocular genjutsu. Sasuke also did not possess the Mangekyou Sharingan, making him deficient in two of three the listed prerequisites to defeat Tsukiyomi. When also considering that there are flashback panels highlighting the instance when Obito discusses Itachi's lack of killing intent, it seems highly likely that Hebi Sasuke was given a lucky break here.

Tsukiyomi could play out either way if Itachi successfully lands it here. While his genjutsu prowess is still superior, Sasuke has a more evolved version of the doujutsu casting it. Nevertheless, I would be surprised if Sasuke escaped from it entirely unharmed.


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## Sans (Aug 26, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except Sasuke using the Tsukuyomi eye and there being the classic inverted panels when it was being explained.



I don't believe that the inverted panels are necessarily linked to Tsukiyomi specifically. Itachi used Tsukiyomi against Sasuke without the inverted colours, and the regular Sharingan genjutsu applied to Kakashi's bunshin was subjected to them.

Sasuke has never been stated to possess Tsukiyomi, and in fact when Itachi used Tsukiyomi to break Sasuke free from Tayuya's genjutsu, Sasuke's exclamation was something like "Mangekyou Genjutsu!" He also has Enton, which is stated to be manipulated from his other eye. While Sasuke is capable of using genjutsu enhanced by the Mangekyou Sharingan, it seems that he doesn't possess Tsukiyomi. Rather, Sasuke has access to Enton and Amaterasu; highlighting his stronger predisposition to ninjutsu in general.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 26, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A weakened version of Tsukuyomi is what Sasuke used on Danzo at the end of their battle. Itachi used a full power one.


I meant general overall weakness (in regards to everything that he did), seeing as he did have health problems, they would effect his overall performance. That's just the conclusion I made on it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 26, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> I don't believe that the inverted panels are necessarily linked to Tsukiyomi specifically. Itachi used Tsukiyomi against Sasuke without the inverted colours, and the regular Sharingan genjutsu applied to Kakashi's bunshin was subjected to them.



Inverted panels alongside _one_ relevant MS eye link to Tsukuyomi specifically. Inverted colours appeared at some point of the illusion; the inverted panels didn't appear when Sasuke used it on Danzo. Yet when explaining what Sasuke did, the inverted panels alongside the relevant MS eye was shown.



> Sasuke has never been stated to possess Tsukiyomi, and in fact when Itachi used Tsukiyomi to break Sasuke free from Tayuya's genjutsu, Sasuke's exclamation was something like "Mangekyou Genjutsu!" He also has Enton, which is stated to be manipulated from his other eye. While Sasuke is capable of using genjutsu enhanced by the Mangekyou Sharingan, it seems that he doesn't possess Tsukiyomi. Rather, Sasuke has access to Enton and Amaterasu; highlighting his stronger predisposition to ninjutsu in general.



The Mangekyou Sharingan is said to possess Tsukuyomi, as per the manga and databook. 

That's Kishi simply telling us Sasuke>>>Itachi in Genjutsu strength. Simply because Sasuke used Tsukuyomi before, and now to keep up with Sasuke's normal illusions, Itachi requires Tsukuyomi. As Obito and Karin's experiences/words together tell us, that whole hatred power thing is the reason for that. 

Enton appears to be an additional feature of his eyes, in addition to the two standard jutsu.

I'm not a fan of these "Sasuke lacks Tsukuyomi" arguments because they ignore all the details outlined and only isolate one in their stance against Tsukuyomi Sasuke e.g. only isolate the inverted panels details but exclude the relevant MS eye in the picture. 



Ryuzaki said:


> I meant general overall weakness (in regards to everything that he did), seeing as he did have health problems, they would effect his overall performance. That's just the conclusion I made on it.



Overall would be right, although it only applies to the jutsu he actually held back: Susanoo. The jutsu he didn't use to attack Sasuke, and the jutsu he didn't manifest partially. 

However I'm saying asserting that Itachi dumbed down his game in any regard, other than the clear Susanoo dumbing down, rests on faulty foundations. I didn't exclude his health problems, but I did outline that Zetsu explicitly noted the only way Itachi's health affected him in battle. It'd be inaccurate to assume Itachi's health affected him more than Zetsu's assessment told us.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 26, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Sasuke doesn't always resort to Susano'o as his opening move, although it is employed liberally.


In nearly every fight, Sasuke used Susano'o as his opening move upon achieving the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. He even went full V4 form instantly against a brigade of White Zetsu.


> Sasuke attempted to fight Ei without it initially. Against Mifune, Sasuke used kenjutsu and only used Susano'o in defence against Yoton. Susano'o was used instantly against Danzou, the man who was responsible for the Uchiha Massacre. Kakashi actually won a taijutsu skirmish with Sasuke, prompting Sasuke to employ his doujutsu.


That's MS Sasuke who didn't have the mastery of Susano'o and Enton he has now due to having the EMS, nor the ease of using them without strain at all.


> In the current fight, Sasuke has been using it interspersed with his standard arsenal, and in fact opened with the latter.


In his very first appearance in the War, Sasuke had used the full Susano'o form. He spams it since he can.


> Itachi has a similar record with the Mangekyou. When facing Kirabi and Naruto, Itachi resorted to the Mangekyou after several brief bouts with his basic jutsu. After Nagato gained the upper-hand against Naruto and Kirabi, Susano'o was used instantly.


Edo Tensei Itachi you mean. A living Itachi cannot do the same feat due to the strain on his body and Susano'o slowing him down, Edo Tensei enabled him to use Susano'o like that.


> Itachi's trump was also deployed quickly and often against Kabuto. While it is true that Itachi was operating with infinite stamina, he was also quick to utilise the Mangekyou against Kakashi, Sasuke and Jiraiya in Part I. During his other major fight with Hebi Sasuke, it was brought out quickly as well.


Itachi used Susano'o and other Mangekyo Techniques more liberally against Kabuto and his opponents as an Edo Tensei since he has unlimited stamina-it won't run out. And he didn't 'bring out his Mangekyo quickly' against them: he fought Kakashi in base and wanted to deliver a coup d'grace since they spent more time in Konoha than intendedm and Jiraiya forced him to use Amaterasu to escape his trap. And against Hebi Sasuke-there was literally no other option. Itachi only uses the Mangekyo when its a last resort while in life.


> Sasuke suffers less strain from his doujutsu due to their more advanced state, but both shinobi are more than willing to use their visual powers as needed.


Sasuke has the superior stamina and his dojutsu doesn't cause a massive strain on both his body and chakra reserves unlike Itachi's. 




> Sasuke was out-classed by Itachi in their genjutsu struggle. Sasuke's final action is ranting that he can "discern reality" and launching a Chidori Eiso across the room at the mirror Itachi in his chair; proving that he has seen through Itachi's current genjutsu in front of him. Unfortunately, Itachi was never was revealed to be standing in front of him, after they ceased their genjutsu battle.


No, the manga showed them as equals in genjutsu. Sasuke literally saw through all of Itachi's genjutsu.


> So, Sasuke was unable to discern Itachi's multi-layered base Sharingan genjutsu. More importantly to this particular instance, there are two more pieces of evidence against Sasuke defeating Tsukiyomi. Firstly, after the battle when Obito is explaining the true course of events and claims that Itachi could have killed him at multiple instances, one of the flashbacks is to Tsukiyomi shattering. Implying of course; that Itachi deliberately held back in that instance. Secondly, the Databook outlines what is needed to break Tsukiyomi. You need superior genjutsu skill, Uchiha blood and the Mangekyou Sharingan.


Obito exaggerated to make Sasuke feel worse and rob his feeling of victory away. The only time Itachi could have honestly killed him was with Susano'o since Itachi never once used offensive use against him.

Sasuke was able to discern and counter with his own Itachi's multi-layered genjutsu. And he broke Tsukuyomi on his own: the databook which you brought up said Sasuke was able to do it on his own. 


> In summation, everything points to Itachi allowing Sasuke to break out of Tsukiyomi. The only time their genjutsu prowess is compared Itachi unambiguously asserted to be Sasuke's superior, and Sasuke proved incapable of seeing through Itachi's regular ocular genjutsu.


...what fight did you even read Konmenos? The manga showed Sasuke and Itachi's base genjutsu skills were equal. This is a lie and an exaggeration of the highest sort. 


> Sasuke also did not possess the Mangekyou Sharingan, making him deficient in two of three the listed prerequisites to defeat Tsukiyomi. When also considering that there are flashback panels highlighting the instance when Obito discusses Itachi's lack of killing intent, it seems highly likely that Hebi Sasuke was given a lucky break here.


Sasuke has a weaker Tsukuyomi too, but his Amaterasu is superior and he gains Enton which Itachi lacks. Obito was again, exaggerating. You honestly don't see his manipulation of how the fight is described to make Sasuke feel worse, rob him of ANY sense of victory and allow him to make the choice to join him? The only time in the entire fight where Itachi held back was when Susano'o came into play.


> Tsukiyomi could play out either way if Itachi successfully lands it here. While his genjutsu prowess is still superior, Sasuke has a more evolved version of the doujutsu casting it. Nevertheless, I would be surprised if Sasuke escaped from it entirely unharmed.


Sasuke has Itachi's eyes. Sasuke has a superior dojutsu. Tsukuyomi does NOTHING. Hell during the Kabuto fight Sasuke's Sharingan: Genjutsu was _put on the exact same level as Itachi's Tsukuyomi_ by Kishimoto himself.


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## SaiST (Aug 26, 2013)

Munboy, you are *killin' me*, man. 



Komnenos said:


> Sasuke was out-classed by Itachi in their genjutsu struggle. Sasuke's final action is ranting that he can "discern reality" and launching a Chidori Eiso across the room at the mirror Itachi in his chair; proving that he has seen through Itachi's current genjutsu in front of him. Unfortunately, Itachi was never was revealed to be standing in front of him, after they ceased their genjutsu battle.


Not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Itachi's shown to be standing in front of the chair when we are given our first indication that all of their fighting thus far had been done within their Genjutsu,[1] walks down the steps just ahead of Sasuke while activating the Mangekyou Sharingan, shortly before proceeding to cast the Genjutsu that details Madara's history to Sasuke,[2] and remains in that position until the Genjutsu ends, or is dispelled.[3]

There is no indication that Sasuke failed to see through any of Itachi's Genjutsu in that battle. It can only be argued that the Genjutsu utilized *may* not have been as strong as they could've been.



> _Secondly, the Databook outlines what is needed to break Tsukiyomi. You need superior genjutsu skill, Uchiha blood and the Mangekyou Sharingan._


Only the Sharingan was mentioned, not the Mangekyou Sharingan. 

And there was nothing said about _"superior"_ Genjutsu skill being required. You do not need to be a superior Genjutsu practitioner to successfully utilize Kai against a Genjutsu specialist. Your ability simply has to be sufficiently powerful to overcome the illusion.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 26, 2013)

SaiST said:


> Munboy, you are *killin' me*, man.
> 
> 
> Not sure what point you're trying to make here.
> ...



 To add onto that, Sasuke stated himself that he's gotten more skilled in his Sharingan Prowess that allowed him to break the genjutsu.


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## Cord (Aug 27, 2013)

Really not seeing how this wall of text- exchanges that we've been having for _days_, is going to end with either of us being able to convince each other, as it seems like we're pretty much fixated on our own opinions and similar points are being repeated. So I'm just going to drop my last response regarding this issue, here (unless new points will be brought up).



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The bow has the same pattern as Yata, except it has a bow extension.
> 
> Identification is only necessarily if Sasuke is using something completely different. Kishi doesn't have to identify something over and over when we've got the relevant visual cues. Then there's the databook which canonically states that the items Itachi used are universal Susanoo items. It isn't a stretch to believe special Uchiha like Madara and Sasuke can actually have more items in addition to the generic ones.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry but I'm still not seeing that as solid reason as to why the author would intentionally hide those abilities when there's absolutely no need for him to do so and despite the numerous displays of such ocular power. You also can't reference Nagato or the Bijus (bar Naruto) to justify why Kishi would be so subtle about Sasuke's abilities because unlike them, Sasuke is a character who's intended to transcend levels where in each stage, are his capabilities meant be explored as well (coupled with the fact that he's a secondary main character and Naruto's parallel). The author can't level him up without fully displaying what he got in his less powerful version first. Otherwise, what's the point in giving him power ups one after another if he's going to be ambiguous about the previous one anyway, and hinder their comparison? 

Just put it this way: Sasuke has already ascended another level and the only thing left for Kishi to show us (the things he has yet to reveal) is the true potential of his Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan- the one that he *currently* has. The abilities he had prior to that have already been shown- just like how all of his abilities in his Hebi version have already been shown. The MS stage is long gone and we have moved on. But never was there any indication that he also wielded the same weapons as Itachi. Otherwise, they would've been identified and referenced to as: _The Yata and Totsuka of Sasuke's Susano'o!_ - just like how Minato's rasengan was referenced and identified as his.

Again, for something obvious like a sword, bow and shield, there's no need for them to be identified as such. But if they're something as exceptional as the Yata and Totsuka (like the Rasengan for example), then I see no reason why the author wouldn't identify them to be- especially when they are wielded and used by two different combatants. Like how Minato and Naruto are different people yet use the same technique. 



> 'll put it this way, if Obito had both his eyes then he'd have his Kamui alongside Kakashi's. If Shisui had both his eyes, he'd have the Koto variant that Danzo and the crow used. It seems the "same jutsu; different applications' rule only applies to MS Uchiha with Senju DNA.
> 
> We can't readily say the same for Sasuke and Itachi for Kishi keeps the former's complete Susanoo hidden.



Kamui is the same jutsu with different applications indeed and I'm pretty sure that if Obito has them both, the difference of said ability is going to be identified. Much like how Shi identified the difference in Sasuke's ocular abilities concerning Amaterasu and its manipulation.

Wait, are you implying that Shisui has Senju DNA? If so, where are you basing that from?



> We were told the Tsukuyomi that a chakra deprived Sasuke used on Danzo wasn't comparable to Itachi's. Nothing about the Tsukuyomi used on Bee or the Kumo shinobi.



Because Tsukuyomi was never used on Bee. Simple as that. It also doesn't make any sense why Sasuke would use a lesser form of Genjutsu against an opponent whom he was only tasked to capture (Killer B) as opposed to someone whom he intended to kill (Danzo). And no, he was not yet deprived of chakra when he attempted to subdue the latter in a Genjutsu, otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to hold up Susano'o moments later and even for a short while against Kakashi.

Please look at how they just don't add up.



> As for Sasuke obtaining Itachi's ocular powers, we were just told that the EMS would make Sasuke stronger, not stack another MS power on it. Itachi told us that the EMS basically gives a MS without blindness and an extra jutsu. In other words, it is most likely that this extra jutsu is what made Sasuke stronger; much like how each Susanoo form made Sasuke stronger.



We weren't told that only strengthening the user's Dojutsu is the only thing that the EMS able to provide. But we'll see about that as the mystery of Sasuke's EMS is yet to be fully xplored.



> The databook entry though could have also been referring to Susanoo in general. Remember, there has only been one complete Susanoo that has been fleshed out in battle - Itachi's. So chances are Sasuke/Madara's would follow suit and showcase the same items. In fact that very databook states that the Susanoo described was obtained by other Uchiha too.
> 
> So prior to Sasuke's MS showing Susanoo, the databook itself made note of the fact that particular Susanoo isn't unique to Itachi.



It implied that Susanoo is not unique to Itachi, but not including the armaments it wields. There's the difference. Kishi cannot make a separate entry for something like the Yata and Totsuka because they aren't jutsus- but weapons. But he needs to define them anyway because they're "special", that's why he incorporated them in that particular entry- an entry that could've only been describing Itachi's Susano'o. It just gave you the impression that it also speaks about Susano'o universally, when it's not really the case. For one, we have to treat the data book as though we're still stuck during those times when Itachi was the sole person who first displayed Susano'o. When the DB entry was based on no one else but his. 

It's not universal unless you bet on its consistency.



> He knows of Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.
> 
> The author speaks through a character's perspective, not his own, when he's writing a character's speech. Black Zetsu knew of Amaterasu, but made it sound like its something anybody aware of its reputation (like Kakashi or C) would know the same amount as Zetsu in terms of Amaterasu.
> 
> In fact Kishimoto took special care to showcase Zetsu's unawareness of Susanoo. So Zetsu's word cannot be readily used to say the items are unique to Itachi, when the databook which came after Zetsu's comments make it specially clear that others obtained the Susanoo which wields Yata and Totsuka.



It depends on what the author is trying to convey, actually. But he won't make a character say such statement if the only reason he's doing so is to make him or her clueless about a particular detail. Maybe, in some instances since we still have to consider what the author is making his characters out to be. Arrogant? Deceptive?

Not in Zetsu's case however, especially when something strikingly important is introduced for the first time. Right. Because Zetsu at that time is the only instrument Kishi can utilize to deliver that information. There's absolutely no reason to make him clueless about them especially when most of what he stated were actually the real deal:


*Spoiler*: __ 












He is the only one to confirm what we have been seeing in the entire battle between Itachi and Sasuke. If such battle was a story, Zetsu was the narrator.

 But you know what sucks the most?- Is having to type all of these in a Tablet.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 27, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> But you know what sucks the most?- Is having to type all of these in a Tablet.



What tablet? What keyboard attachment? :33

EDIT: Itachi and Sasuke are both awesome.


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## Bkprince33 (Aug 28, 2013)

It's funny the same ppl who argue itachi didn't hold back tsukiyomi against sasuke, despite knowing he didnt want to kill him, are the same ppl who argue Kcm naruto held back on itachi during there taijutsu exchange


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## emersennin (Aug 28, 2013)

itachi can't manipulate susano like sasuke which it comes down to cuz amaterasu cancels out amaterasu and i'm being gentle and not bringing up enton and you saw how sasuke had trouble with susano in MS and itachi must have had the same troubles and he would have been the future outcome of sasuke with such an illness


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 28, 2013)

itachi is to smart for sasuke so he would probably know how to counter his moves and if itachi brings out susanoo he uses totsuka and yata combo how is sasuke going to win?


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## P3IN (Aug 28, 2013)

Sasuke wins


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 29, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A weakened version of Tsukuyomi is what Sasuke used on Danzo at the end of their battle. Itachi used a full power one.



Its debatable.

For example why didn't Itachi restrict Sasuke's movements like he did to Kakashi ? Why didn't he torture him from the get go ? 

Instead he created an experience which seemed like an extention of reality.

Was it because Sasuke actually gained control of his actions in Itachi's Tsukiyomi(where Itachi stated to have absolute control over) or did Itachi allowed him to have that control to a degree ?

Seemed to be that Itachi didn't make that experience as tought as it could get. Probably thats what gave Sasuke the chance to break it which also explains Tobi's remark of Itachi holding back with it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 29, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its debatable.
> 
> For example why didn't Itachi restrict Sasuke's movements like he did to Kakashi ? Why didn't he torture him from the get go ?
> 
> ...



Part 2? That's because Sasuke was powerful enough to break Tsukuyomi anyway.

I think that's you just "reaching". Everything points to that being a full powered Tsukuyomi.

The only MS jutsu that was actually held back was Susanoo; no partial forms and it didn't even try to attack Sasuke.


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## blk (Aug 29, 2013)

So, Itachi and Sasuke have the same chakra capacity in this thread.

In this case, the battle will probably be decided by who is more intelligent, skilled and uses his chakra better (since none of them can break the defense of the other), in which case i'm confident that Itachi is the superior one.

Therefore, i would say that this is a win for Itachi with something like high-difficulty.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 29, 2013)

This isn't even a fight.
They both turtle under Susanoo, and then Sasuke wins.


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## Matty (Feb 13, 2016)

He has the same level of chakra so Sasuke isnt out lasting him easily. He has Totsuka and yata, and is just as talented as sasuke. I see itachi winning with high dif, due to a feint and Totsuka strike


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## Kenpachi TZ (Feb 14, 2016)

Mother of Necros, this is from *2013*.


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