# Tsunade VS Raikage



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 15, 2016)

Location: *Sannin Battlefield*
Starting Distance: *200 Metres* (To Avoid The Usual One Word Biased Responses)
Mindset:* In Character* 
Conditions: *Kill to Win*
Knowledge: *Manga*
Restrictions: *None *​


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 15, 2016)

Ay cuts her head off, low-difficulty.


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## Itachі (Feb 15, 2016)

Ei is a weaker but more durable and faster version of Tsunade. He beats her up.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 15, 2016)

Yeah. He runs 200 M and Tsuna just stands there.  She doesn't summon Katsuyu. She doesn't try to attack. She doesn't use terrain manipulation. 


Yeah Katsuyu negs.


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## Itachі (Feb 15, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> She doesn't try to attack.



I didn't know that Tsunade's punches had a blast radius of 200 metres.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 15, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I didn't know that Tsunade's punches had a blast radius of 200 metres.



I didn't know she couldn't try and punch someone she can see coming from 200 Metres.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 15, 2016)

I'm not really sure how Katsuyu is supposed to save Tsunade, short of the Hokage hiding inside her, lol.

Tsunade stands on Katsuyu waiting for Ay? He gets in ranage, uses super Shunshin and beheads her all the same while Katsuyu's sluggish acid falls uselessly on the ground he left a split-second prior.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 15, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I'm not really sure how Katsuyu is supposed to save Tsunade, short of the Hokage hiding inside her, lol.
> 
> Tsunade stands on Katsuyu waiting for Ay? He gets in ranage, uses super Shunshin and beheads her all the same while Katsuyu's sluggish acid falls uselessly on the ground he left a split-second prior.



Because Raikage can jump on Katsuyu head lol. In Chapter 169 in the deadlock Katsuyu was standing taller than Bunta. Bunta is the same.size of Kurama. I doubt he is jumping that high. If so give me panels


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## Nikushimi (Feb 15, 2016)

Tsunade walls herself inside Katsuyu until she needs to breathe. Then Raikage is stuck playing whack-a-mole as she comes up for air occasionally.

Calling this one like the most retarded stalemate ever.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 16, 2016)

Stalemate: I can go with that to ease the Raikage fans, though realistically Katsuyu is soloing this.


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## Bringer (Feb 16, 2016)

Would Tsunade even need air in Katsuyu? Tsunade kept the dying Gokage in body sized Katsuyu's. 

Anyway Katsuyu solo's.


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 16, 2016)

Tsunade activates Byakugo no Jutsu and summons Katsuyu, she sits inside of Katsuyu's body as A starts going ham on it trying to harm it. Katsuyu starts firing out acid slowing down A's assault but eventually  he'd rip Katsuyu apart and even though she'd still be okay Tsunade's location would be revealed. However, Tsunade could use this moment to quickly come out and hit A with a CES punch during his assault which would mess him up badly. That combined with Katsuyu being able to easily reform and just start firing acid at A immediately after he's hit combined with Tsunade just being able to use a Heavenly Kick of Pain on him would seal her victory in the end.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 16, 2016)

Katsuyu should skip the acid and simply use Shosen while Ay is attacking her, then Tsunade can finish him off when he's sleeping.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 16, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Stalemate: I can go with that to ease the Raikage fans, though realistically Katsuyu is soloing this.



The Raikage is the former "world's fastest man."

Katsuyu is an enormous slug.

She will never catch him.


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## fyhb (Feb 16, 2016)

I think Raikage wins this mid-high difficulty he has the Speed and Reflexes to dodge I think everything Tsunade can attack him with,including Katsuyu. Raikage has the means to hurt and kill Tsunade without a doubt considering he Cut Off Hachibi Horn .About Raikage jumping on Katsuyu,I think he jumped high enough to cut Hachibi Horn so he probably can jump on Katsuyu too but even if he can't what is stopping him from climbing Katsuyu with Chakra in his feet!?

Also Tsunade Healings and Byakugou are quite Chakra Taxing Techs as we have seen while Raikage with Biju Level Chakra Techs require quite minimal Chakra Tax which is a big plus for him ! 

I really believe Raikage wins this one.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 16, 2016)

> What is stopping him from climbing Katsuyu with Chakra in his feet!?



Katsuyu's selective permeability and ability to use Shosen, which can be reapplied to overload a target's circulatory system with the Chakra of the user in order to send them into a comatose state for a time. If Katsuyu can become a healing area she can become an overload zone as well.


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## Rocky (Feb 16, 2016)

Katsuyu doesn't have the juice to overload Raikage's chakra system.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 16, 2016)

Good thing nobody was talking about his Chakra system, then.


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## Rocky (Feb 16, 2016)

That would be where the chakra from Shōsen would go, lol.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 16, 2016)

No.

_*"The Keirakurei is a kind of network of energy lines, spread throughout our bodies in much the same way as the human circulatory system."*_

They're different things, or else Kurama would knock everybody out when he decided to lend massive amounts of Chakra, unless you think the gap between them is smaller than the gap between out-of-shape Tsunade and Orochimaru or Kabuto and Kiba.


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## Rocky (Feb 16, 2016)

The chakra circulatory system isn't the blood circulatory system, but Kabuto overloaded Kiba with chakra, not blood. The only place you can put chakra is the chakra system. That's kinda why it's there.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 16, 2016)

And?

The Chakra was used to overload the internal circulatory system, not the Chakra system. That would be stupid for aforementioned reasons. Chakra can influence _any_ part of the body- it isn't limited to the Chakra pathway system, which is simply a passageway as the name implies. Things exit passageways.


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## Rocky (Feb 16, 2016)

No, Kabuto overloaded Kiba's chakra system because he injected chakra to perform the feat. He'd need to inject blood into Kiba to "overload" a system that circulates blood.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 16, 2016)

He can overload the circulatory system system because the Chakra can exit the Keirakurei at any point (i.e.- into the circulatory system). Passageways typically allow entry and exit. The Keirakurei does because it would not be possible to even inject someone with Chakra otherwise.


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## Rocky (Feb 16, 2016)

You say that like the Keirakurei isn't already part of the circulatory system. It's connected to all of the body's cells, which would include the ones in the circulatory system. Chakra cannot "exit the Keirakurei" and start going through the circulatory system. It would go through the circulatory system by going through the part of the Keirakurei that resides in the cells that make up the circulatory system...


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## FlamingRain (Feb 16, 2016)

If Chakra could not exit the Keirakurei ninja would not be able to shoot projectiles made out of Chakra, yet we've seen that they can. In the same way Chakra can enter the Keirakurei it can exit it, it is no more complicated than that.



> It's connected to all of the body's cells, which would include the ones in the circulatory system



and also mean that you can put too much Chakra into it without putting in too much for the Keirakurei itself to bear.


Again, going by your alternative:



> Kurama would knock everybody out when he decided to lend massive amounts of Chakra, unless you think the gap between them is smaller than the gap between out-of-shape Tsunade and Orochimaru or Kabuto and Kiba.



That would be straight up retarded.


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## Rocky (Feb 16, 2016)

Chakra can be expelled through tenketsu, but it cannot flow through the body outside of the system that allows it to flow through the body. If you use Shōsen to send excess chakra into somebody to "overload their circulation," you are overloading the circulation of chakra. _What else would you be overloading?_

As for your example, Naruto figured out a way to hand out Version 1 shrouds to the allaince without them all turing into rampaging beasts like Version 1 Naruto did in Part I. I don't know what you want me to say there.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 16, 2016)

Rocky said:


> If you use Shōsen to send excess chakra into somebody to "overload their circulation," you are overloading the circulation of chakra.



You send excess Chakra into somebody in order to disrupt the functioning of their internal circulatory system, not in order to overcharge _their own circulation of Chakra_.

The latter is not contingent upon the former. The Keirakurei itself probably can't even be overloaded by Chakra, given the number of instances in the manga where excess Chakra simply had the effect of boosting one's abilities, such as when members of the alliance were pumped with so much Chakra by Kurama their natural volumes were _multiplied_, never mind what Naruto himself was granted.



> As for your example, Naruto figured out a way to hand out Version 1 shrouds to the allaince without them all turing into rampaging beasts like Version 1 Naruto did in Part I. I don't know what you want me to say there.



That has nothing to do with anything. At all.


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## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

A wins, but it won't be as easy a victory as some claim. With manga knowledge and A's apparent intent to kill, Tsunade can summon Katsuyu and camp, or at least soak up or recover from A's blows. However, I think that A may have a small stamina advantage on top his speed advantage, and it should logically be more exhausting for Tsunade to recover from lethal injury than it is for A to attack with RCM, so Tsunade really doesn't have a good shot here. She can't even hit him.

A wins with high difficulty due to having some trouble putting Tsunade down permanently.


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## LostSelf (Feb 16, 2016)

Ei has enough strenght to get in Katsuyu's head with a jump, if Hiruzen single jumped on top of his head in the Hokage monument. Wich is taller than Katsuyu, as much as i recall.


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## Rocky (Feb 16, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> You send excess Chakra into somebody in order to disrupt the functioning of their internal circulatory system



"Overload" was the word used. You send _excess_ chakra into a person to _overload_ their circulation..._*of chakra.*_ If "disrupting the functioning of the internal circulatory system" was mentioned somewhere, go ahead and link me, because I have no recollection of cardiovascular Rashinshō being a thing.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 16, 2016)

Wat? _"Overload"_ was only ever used where _"disrupt the normal functioning of the internal circulatory system"_ was mentioned iirc, but here it is  It had nothing to do with Ranshinshō, which is simply switching the nerve signals between the brain and body, not an overload.

The person is _"overloaded"_ in the sense that they have Chakra flowed into them that wasn't specifically matched to the extent of some injury, not as in they put in so much it exceeds what the Keirakurei itself can handle. It messes with he circulatory system, not the Keirakurei.



Rocky said:


> Chakra can be expelled through tenketsu, but it cannot flow through the body outside of the system that allows it to flow through the body.



The Tenketsu themselves are still within the body. So how do you think injected Chakra even gets into contact with the Tenketsu if not by moving through the body first?


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## $Kakashi$ (Feb 16, 2016)

>Katsuyu soloing



The near featless slug isn't doing shit.


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2016)

Aw my post never went through on this. I don't even remember what I was going to say. But as for reverse Shōsen, Raikage's armor would prevent the harmful chakra from entering his body even if it could somehow put him down.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 19, 2016)

It should pass through the armor in the same manner it bypasses people's clothing and skin, like Ohnoki's weight Jutsu.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 19, 2016)

Anyone remember the time Killer Bee and Raikage decapitated Kisame?

Raikage does that here without her even reacting to the movement.


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2016)

This fight can go either way depending on how they fight. Either tsunade uses the chakra to the feet method, blocks V1 Ay's intial charge, and caves his chest in, or she finds a way to catch Ay off guard with Katsuyu tactics. Ay can also win if he Amps his cloak to V2 and blindside raiton chops the slug princess.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> This fight can go either way depending on how they fight. Either tsunade uses the chakra to the feet method, blocks V1 Ay's intial charge, and caves his chest in


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2016)

The way chakra enters (and exits) the body is through the tenketsu located on the skin like pores. The armor would cover those up, which is presumably why Raikage wrapped it around Ōnoki. I think the Tsuchikage was touching A's actual body.


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2016)

Is there a problem with me thinking Tsuande has a chance to best Ay or...? In case you forgot, Ay came at Sasuke without a flicker in V1. Mind you, the Raikage thought Sasuke had killed his brother. Im doubtful that Ay will come at Tsuande with V2 from the start, and that could be a major mistake.


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2016)

A would use whatever level of speed is necessary to blitz Tsunade. He has detailed knowledge on Tsunade's abilities. The "he doesn't try his hardest" argument is silly. It's like me saying that Tsunade won't use her maximum strength until later, so A just tanks any initial blows.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Is there a problem with me thinking Tsuande has a chance to best Ay or...? In case you forgot, Ay came at Sasuke without a flicker in V1. Mind you, the Raikage thought Sasuke had killed his brother. Im doubtful that Ay will come at Tsuande with V2 from the start, and that could be a major mistake.



Nah, I just don't think that Tsunade's going to block Ei's punch if he actually gets there. I also think that he's going to use Lariat to take off her head since conventional means of damaging Tsunade are useless. She can't block with her neck.

Ei activated V2 when he saw the Mangekyo Sharingan though.


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Nah, I just don't think that Tsunade's going to block Ei's punch if he actually gets there. I also think that he's going to use Lariat to take off her head since conventional means of damaging Tsunade are useless. She can't block with her neck.
> 
> Ei activated V2 when he saw the Mangekyo Sharingan though.



A single Lariat doesn't take of heads, it blows apart the chest. A double lariat takes off the head. If Tsunade uses chakra to the feet and Ay goes for Lariat, Ay looses his life on Tsuandes first swing. And that's pretty much what I see happening here.


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2016)

Lol, you see Raikage jobbing and Tsunade going all out from the start because you want Tsunade to win. In reality, they both go all out from the start (because they both know what the other is capable of), and Tsunade gets speed-blitzed repeatedly without being able to even see Raikage move.


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Lol, you see Raikage jobbing and Tsunade going all out from the start because you want Tsunade to win. In reality, they both go all out from the start (because they both know what the other is capable of), and Tsunade gets speed-blitzed repeatedly without being able to even see Raikage move.



Umm no? If they both fight as tactically as possible from the start then Tsuande wins rocky. She camps inside Katsuyu and this becomes the most boring manga fight ever.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> A single Lariat doesn't take of heads, it blows apart the chest. A double lariat takes off the head. If Tsunade uses chakra to the feet and Ay goes for Lariat, Ay looses his life on Tsuandes first swing. And that's pretty much what I see happening here.



True, but Bee's Lariat did this.



I can't see Tsunade recovering and taking Ei on before she just gets bombarded by Ei's attacks until she dies.

Ei could also chop her head off like this.


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Umm no? If they both fight as tactically as possible from the start then Tsuande wins rocky. She camps inside Katsuyu and this becomes the most boring manga fight ever.



Tsunade would be too busy getting blitzed to climb into Katsuyu even if she decided to summon the thing right away. Raikage would just outlast it anyway, or wait for Tsunade to come out for food/air/water.


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> True, but Bee's Lariat did this.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't see Tsunade recovering and taking Ei on before she just gets bombarded by Ei's attacks until she dies.



Tsuande is like the definition of a tank. Being able to continue fighting while sustaining life threatening damage. Chakra to the feet method stops Ay from sending her flying and considering Tsuande punches as fast as Ay, she follows up with a swing right after the lariat hits her. And yes I also listed ways in which Ay could defeat Tsunade. It just depends on how they fight

@Rocky

Look at the distance. Ay is not getting in Tsunades face from that far away before she summons Katsuyu under her. From there , the distance is upped by another 100m considering she'll be on top of katsuyu... And then she just morphs into the slug.

Yeah I see Ay getting hit by acid before Tsuande needs food. I see Tsuande being able to summon a lot more than 5% Katsuyu here considering she can use all chakra for the summon and none for healing entire armies. She also summons 5% Katsuyu with almost no chakra. She should atleast be able to summon like 8% Katsuyu, which would spit out mountain sized acid blasts.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade would be too busy getting blitzed to climb into Katsuyu even if she decided to summon the thing right away.



There are 200 metres between them tho.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Tsuande is like the definition of a tank. Being able to continue fighting while sustaining life threatening damage. Chakra to the feet method stops Ay from sending her flying and considering Tsuande punches ad fast as Ay, she follows up with a swing right after the lariat hits her.



She's able to continue fighting but she can still be moved or disoriented. I also doubt that she would use CTF method in actual combat, seems pretty unorthodox to me. Even if she does use it, I don't really have faith in its ability to keep her grounded lol. I think she'd summon Katsuyu though.


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> She's able to continue fighting but she can still be moved or disoriented. I also doubt that she would use CTF method in actual combat, seems pretty unorthodox to me. Even if she does use it, I don't really have faith in its ability to keep her grounded lol. I think she'd summon Katsuyu though.



Its based on interpretation then. I see her using CTF against Ay, just like she devised a plan to use CTF against Pain so she didn't get thrown into the air. I also see her being able to throw a punch right after being Injured.. That's kinda just like how Tsuande is. Like being able to blitz Oro with her midsection in pieces, being able to blitz Kabuto with her intercostal lungs severed, or being able to smash apart Sussano clones with a severed spinal cord.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Its based on interpretation then. I see her using CTF against Ay, just like she devised a plan to use CTF against Pain so she didn't get thrown into the air. I also see her being able to throw a punch right after being Injured.. That's kinda just like how Tsuande is. Like being able to blitz Oro with her midsection in pieces, being able to blitz Kabuto with her intercostal lungs severed, or being able to smash apart Sussano clones with a severed spinal cord.



But she's going to be momentarily disadvantaged and Ei's speed gives him ample opportunity to take advantage of that. Tsunade still showed signs of pain and while she's resilient she's not going to be able to attack Ei before he gets the drop on her imo.


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Look at the distance. Ay is not getting in Tsunades face from that far away before she summons Katsuyu under her.



When you have low-grade speedsters like base B and Sage Naruto leaping huge distances seemingly in an instant, I don't particularly think the distance is going to matter. The speed gap that exists between Raikage and Tsunade is absolutely monstrous. She's not summoning Katsuyu and hiding in it before she gets wtfpwned by Raigyaku Suihei from behind.



Likes boss said:


> Yeah I see Ay getting hit by acid before Tsuande needs food.



You can call me when Katsuyu hits a moving target with acid. Until then, I don't want to hear Katsuyu and Raikage brought up in the same sentence unless you're going to tell me how irrelevant her offense is to him. 



Likes boss said:


> She also summons 5% Katsuyu with almost no chakra. She should atleast be able to summon like 8% Katsuyu, which would spit out mountain sized acid blasts.



[]


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> When you have low-grade speedsters like base B and Sage Naruto leaping huge distances seemingly in an instant, I don't particularly think the distance is going to matter. The speed gap that exists between Raikage and Tsunade is absolutely monstrous. She's not summoning Katsuyu and hiding in it before she gets wtfpwned by Raigyaku Suihei from behind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well than that your opinion. Raikage isn't blitzing a Kage level opponent from 700 feet away. He isn't a god . that just straight ridiculous 

Have you seen acid blasts from around 10% katsuyu? It would be acid blasts the size of bjuii coming out of Katsuyu. Ay is getting hit from that before Tsuande needs to eat.

☻That link didn't send me anywhere tbh. But if it says something about needing 2 byakago then that's illogical. Maybe if those users are healing thousands of shinobi then yeah. But just summoning the slug? Probably not.


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> But she's going to be momentarily disadvantaged and Ei's speed gives him ample opportunity to take advantage of that. Tsunade still showed signs of pain and while she's resilient she's not going to be able to attack Ei before he gets the drop on her imo.


I don't think Tsuande will he disadvantaged given her feats. She is kinda accustomed to throwing blows while being injured.

Yeah except this isn't Gai who is actually fast in CQC. Ay can close distances quickly, but he doesn't actually punch that fast. He'd pretty much land a blow and get his shit stuffed in before he can escape Tsuande's AoE.

Yeah Tsuande will show pain when attacked countless amounts of tines, but that's very different from this scenario.


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2016)

"Raikage doesn't punch that fast."


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2016)

I guess Tsuande punches at that same speed too. Or Raikage punches while he flickers . He can't string together fast combinations though like Gai or Tobirama.


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## $Kakashi$ (Feb 19, 2016)

200 meters is not that far for Naruto Characters.

Sound travels  through the air at 330 m/s.

Kage level characters can react to lightning.

The Raikage would cover that distance in less then a second.


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2016)

Tsunade doesn't do anything as fast as Raikage, and he can "string fast combinations together" just as well as anyone else on his level of speed could. Tobirama is primarily a teleporter. RCM Raikage takes a poop on him in body speed just like he does Minato.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> The way chakra enters (and exits) the body is through the tenketsu located on the skin like pores.



_"...Along the Keirakurei that we spoke of earlier, there are 361 Chakra points...//...no larger than the prick of a pen. // These nodes are called Tenketsu..."_ The Tenketsu are according to Kakashi part of the Keirakurei, and thus internal. The skin itself would cover them up, as would clothing.

We could see in the  during Kakuzu's autopsy that the Tenketsu are _inside_ the cells. FRS pierced through them and _then_ severed the Keirakurei. In order to even come into contact with them Chakra needs to already be able to flow into the body, which is probably how Kabuto was able to use his Chakra to cut parts of Naruto's Keirakurei in Part 1. There's also how Hinata was able to Jyūken KCM Naruto's shoulder back into place and the other Kyūbi shrouds didn't stop Sakura from using her medical Jutsu on people.


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2016)

The Kyūbi shrouds is a good point. I forgot about those.


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade doesn't do anything as fast as Raikage, and he can "string fast combinations together" just as well as anyone else on his level of speed could. Tobirama is primarily a teleporter. RCM Raikage takes a poop on him in body speed just like he does Minato.


Feats say other wise. Cause on panel Tsunade could match his arm speed. And his arm speed was the reason Sasuke could even react to Ay to begin with. Ay simply appeared behind sasuke and sasuke could activate amaterasu in accordance to his arm speed.

Uhh what? Minato was able to flick a kunai behind Ay and then activate FTG before Ay could get to him Tobirama also tags Juubi jin multiple timed during a flicker. Ay does not shit on either of them at all. Only his flicker does.


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## baski (Feb 20, 2016)

Ay's speed is massively being underestimated here. He's one of the fastest in the world. Tsunade is nowhere near fast enough to do any of the things that could give her an edge  in this fight before he blitzes her


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## Rocky (Feb 20, 2016)

Oh yeah, you're the one that thinks there's like five different kinds of speed.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 20, 2016)

There really are, though.


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## Veracity (Feb 20, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Oh yeah, you're the one that thinks there's like five different kinds of speed.


I do. You can be fast in many different ways in this manga. I thought that was obvious when Itachi is hyped for hand speed, Minato is hyped for reactions, Raikage is hyped for flicker speed, and Gai is an animal in CQC physical speed like MP.


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## Itachі (Feb 20, 2016)

Tsunade's not getting blitzed and rekt with no diff but I can't see her winning this in all honesty. She simply can't keep up and is just gonna get overwhelmed.

@Likes Boss

Raikage also has been hyped for reactions on par with Minato when he's in V2. Or was it V1? I forget.


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## Veracity (Feb 20, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Tsunade's not getting blitzed and rekt with no diff but I can't see her winning this in all honesty. She simply can't keep up and is just gonna get overwhelmed.
> 
> @Likes Boss
> 
> Raikage also has been hyped for reactions on par with Minato when he's in V2. Or was it V1? I forget.



Yeah I know. That doesn't really change anything though.


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## Rocky (Feb 20, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I do. You can be fast in many different ways in this manga. I thought that was obvious when Itachi is hyped for hand speed, Minato is hyped for reactions, Raikage is hyped for flicker speed, and Gai is an animal in CQC physical speed like MP.



Speed is speed. Some characters can be faster (relative to their own speed) at certain things (like seal weaving) as a result of practice, but there aren't half-dozen forms of speed. Characters generally punch, kick, duck, and weave at the same level of speed that they run at.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 20, 2016)

> There aren't half-dozen forms of speed.



Direct movement speed alone has like three or more different forms.


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## Veracity (Feb 20, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Speed is speed. Some characters can be faster (relative to their own speed) at certain things (like seal weaving) as a result of practice, but there aren't half-dozen forms of speed. Characters generally punch, kick, duck, and weave at the same level of speed that they run at.



And again that is where we disagree drastically. The introduction of super chakra enhanced flickers, or magical eyeballs that specifically enhance reactions, or sensing that specifically enhances CQC combat, or shinobi that can ignite air on fire via friction - changed that theory for me. Raikage can flicker a lot faster than he can punch and the same goes for KCM Naruto. Raikage can physically cross distances much faster than Minato, but Minato can move his arms at that same speed. Itachi can mentally react and bust out hand seals a lot faster than he can actually move far distances and the same generally goes for Tobirama. Gai himself is a prime example of a shinobi who moves a lot faster in CQC than he crosses distances.


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## Saru (Feb 20, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> None of this counters anything I've said. Maybe you should re-read my previous posts. Because Ay doesn't punch any faster than Tsuande does herself, and CTF negates the built up momentum. Ay isn't going to be able to lariat Tsunade, then build up the chakra to activate his flicker to escape Tsunades next attack. Especially considering Ay has never once layered flickers back to back, and because Tsuande can attack while severely damaged.




So basically what you're telling me is that you think that all Kage-level fighters have the same phsyical movement speed. Because nothing suggests that Tsunade and A punch at similar speeds. Yondaime Raikage definitely punches, moves, and can Body Flicker faster than Tsunade can do any of those things.




> The Sage Naruto example doesn't hold any merit here, as Naruto was not only trying to escape from getting hit at all, but actually dodge the Raikages strike and push it back into his body. Tsuande is not doing that to the Raikage . Nor does she need to in this stipulation.




It's relevant, because it shows that SM-enhanced speed and reflexes were needed to accomplish that feat. Whether or not Tsunade can take a hit and strike back is what's irrelevant, because her hits are too slow to hit A. DId you miss the part where Naruto had to _double_ feint Sandaime Raikage in order to hit him with FRS? Yeah, that's because the Raikage have _all_ of their physical capabilities enhanced by RCM, not just phsyical strength and Body Flicker.




> And no. Ay isn't blitzing Tsuande before she can use CTF at 200m. And if the techiqnue was intialky used to keep shinobi on the ground from techniques like ST, then it is easily keeping Tsuande on the ground from Ay's strikes.




I never said that A would blitz Tsunade before she could use CTF. My point is that CTF is futile because Tsunade can't strike A back after she takes a hit.




Likes boss said:


> You can be fast in many different ways in this manga.




Agreed. But that doesn't mean that Tsunade can be arbitrarily assumed to have hand speeds equal to RCM-enhanced Raikage. Please don't tell me that you're basing this on Tsunade and A _coordinating_ an attack against Madara after coming out of Mabui's Heavenly Transportation.


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## Rocky (Feb 20, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Direct movement speed alone has like three or more different forms.



There's speed, and then there are certain abilities that one may possess that are performed above the speeds at which they do everything else at. Iaidō, seal weaving, Acrobat, and most of Gai's gate techniques are examples. 



Likes boss said:


> Gai himself is a prime example of a shinobi who moves a lot faster in CQC than he crosses distances.



I find it funny that your prime example is actually contradictory. Gai and Madara were speaking to each other from a ways away, then suddenly Gai is in Madara's face and Madz is like "what the fuck!?". Yet, Madara has no issues blocking Gai's Sekizō with his staff moments later.


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## Veracity (Feb 20, 2016)

Saru said:


> So basically what you're telling me is that you think that all Kage-level fighters have the same phsyical movement speed. Because nothing suggests that Tsunade and A punch at similar speeds. Yondaime Raikage definitely punches, moves, and can Body Flicker faster than Tsunade can do any of those things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats not even what was said or implied. Tsuande has on panel feats of punching an opponent at the same speed as Raikage. Given the scenario , Ay wouldn't have any reason to punch Muu at the same speed as Tsunade punching Madara- so I conclude that they have similar striking speed. Which seems to be the case, as Ay doesn't even strike fast. He just has augmented reactions and a speedy flicker. Which is why MS Sasuke easily reacts to his strike after being liger bombed: 
☻blocking Gai's Sekizō
Then the next scene pretty much defines my entire point. Sasuke cannot keep track of Ay's flicker, but can activate amaterasu in accordance to Ays lackluster arm speed: 
☻Link removed

There's a difference between landing a strike without taking damage and taking a blow to land a blow. The latter is substantially easier to accomplish, because it stems from the opponent still being in the position of the initial strike. Ay is quick, but he isn't not flickering in, punching Tsuande and then molding the bjuii amount of chakra to activate another flicker, especially when Tsuande can punch while she is getting punched. That's unlike most scenarios, because usually a shinobi would be disoriented and Injured from the blow. That isn't Tsuande.

I don't think RCM enhances striking speed. Its not really logical, and dodging ranged FRS twice is very different from this scenario.

You said Ay could attack Tsuande before she could use CTF. That sounds like a blitz to me.





☻


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## Veracity (Feb 20, 2016)

Rocky said:


> There's speed, and then there are certain abilities that one may possess that are performed above the speeds at which they do everything else at. Iaidō, seal weaving, Acrobat, and most of Gai's gate techniques are examples.
> 
> 
> 
> I find it funny that your prime example is actually contradictory. Gai and Madara were speaking to each other from a ways away, then suddenly Gai is in Madara's face and Madz is like "what the fuck!?". Yet, Madara has no issues blocking Gai's Sekizō with his staff moments later.



You know that shinobi usually get used to the speed of their opponents during a battle? I think Madara ddit expect that much of a soeedt enhancement anyway.

I was more or less talking about regular Gated Gai who canonically can punch much faster than he can physically cross distances. Its the whole point of AT and MP


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## Saru (Feb 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Thats not even what was said or implied. Tsuande has on panel feats of punching an opponent at the same speed as Raikage. Given the scenario , Ay wouldn't have any reason to punch Muu at the same speed as Tsunade punching Madara- so I conclude that they have similar striking speed. Which seems to be the case, as Ay doesn't even strike fast. He just has augmented reactions and a speedy flicker. Which is why MS Sasuke easily reacts to his strike after being liger bombed:
> ☻blocking Gai's Sekizō
> Then the next scene pretty much defines my entire point. Sasuke cannot keep track of Ay's flicker, but can activate amaterasu in accordance to Ays lackluster arm speed:
> ☻blocking Gai's Sekizō




She does not have feats of punching at the same speed as A does, plain and simple.

You're not showing me anything in those panels about Sasuke reacting to Liger Bomb with physical body movement, which is what this discussion is about. You're showing me a panel of Sasuke reacting to A's elbow with a Susano'o limb. V2 Susano'o limbs form instantly. If anything, that tells me that A's elbow is pretty damn fast. Sasuke shielded himself with Enton in his blindspot. He didn't react to A at all. You can see Sasuke still trying to turn his head to get a good look at Raikage's bitchslap.




> There's a difference between landing a strike without taking damage and taking a blow to land a blow. The latter is substantially easier to accomplish, because it stems from the opponent still being in the position of the initial strike. Ay is quick, but he isn't not flickering in, punching Tsuande and then molding the bjuii amount of chakra to activate another flicker, especially when Tsuande can punch while she is getting punched. That's unlike most scenarios, because usually a shinobi would be disoriented and Injured from the blow. That isn't Tsuande.




I understand what you're trying to say, but A doesn't need to use Body Flicker to avoid Tsunade's attack, and even if he did, he wouldn't need to use a "bijuu amount of chakra" to do so. You're literally arguing that A needs V2 Body Flicker to avoid Tsunade's punch. Do you know how that sounds?




> I don't think RCM enhances striking speed. Its not really logical, and dodging ranged FRS twice is very different from this scenario.




Alright, explain how it's different. Both require body movement.




> You said Ay could attack Tsuande before she could use CTF. That sounds like a blitz to me.




I meant to delete that bit of my post when I was typing it. My b.
​


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## Veracity (Feb 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> She does not have feats of punching at the same speed as A does, plain and simple.
> 
> You're not showing me anything in those panels about Sasuke reacting to Liger Bomb with physical body movement, which is what this discussion is about. You're showing me a panel of Sasuke reacting to A's elbow with a Susano'o limb. V2 Susano'o limbs form instantly. If anything, that tells me that A's elbow is pretty damn fast. Sasuke shielded himself with Enton in his blindspot. He didn't react to A at all. You can see Sasuke still trying to turn his head to get a good look at Raikage's bitchslap.
> 
> ...


She does: 
blocking Gai's Sekizō

The argument was never that Sasuke could react to Liger Bomb. The argument is that Sasuke can react to Ay's arm speed. And yes. He physically reacts to days arm speed in this panel:
blocking Gai's Sekizō
He completely flips himself over to avoid the strike.

Look at those panels again instead of merely eyeballing them. You can see that Ay appears behind Sasuke before Sasuke activates amaterasu, yet Sasuke can activate amaterasu before Ay can hit him? Why? Because Sasuke can react to Ays Arm speed but not his flicker speed. 

Naw. I'm more or less arguing that Ay is going to need to flicker if he wants to punch the fuck out of Tsuande and then escape the Area before she hits him. If ays job is only to dodge Tsuande, then yes I agree he can. But if wants to land a blow and not get hit himself then that's a no go here. Its a non go specifically against Tsunade because she can not only stay stationary, but she can attack while being attacked unlike most characters. Maybe its a senju thing . like tobirama being able to tag Juubito although he was in 2 pieces. 

Its because the Raikage isn't just dodging in this scenario. He's attacking and dodging.


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## Veracity (Feb 21, 2016)

Not to mention this entire part: blocking Gai's Sekizō


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## Bringer (Feb 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> Alright, explain how it's different. Both require body movement.



Using real life as an example, a dude named Robert Ardito set the world record of punches per minute. He can throw 805 punches in 60 seconds. 

Now, Usain Bolt can do a 100 meter dash in 9.58 seconds. 

Both of what they do involve speed, but both aren't the same. Can Usain Bolt punches 805 times in 60 seconds? Can Robert Ardito do a 100 meter dash in 9.58 seconds?


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## Itachі (Feb 21, 2016)

I think that RCM should enhance striking speed but the two are different, yeah.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 21, 2016)

Wait, so what's the general consensus in this thread?

Ay stomps, right?


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## Veracity (Feb 21, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Wait, so what's the general consensus in this thread?
> 
> Ay stomps, right?



Naawww. I think Ay is kinda overwanked tbh


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## Saru (Feb 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> She does:
> blocking Gai's Sekizō




No, she doesn't. A was not using RCM there.




> The argument was never that Sasuke could react to Liger Bomb. The argument is that Sasuke can react to Ay's arm speed. And yes. He physically reacts to days arm speed in this panel:
> blocking Gai's Sekizō
> He completely flips himself over to avoid the strike.
> 
> ...




Lol. Sasuke covers his Susano'o with Enton _with his head still turned_. He doesn't have eyeballs in the back of his head. I have that panel memorized because Rocky has probably posted it a hundred times. Sasuke had no idea where A was; he wasn't reacting to shit. That's why he surrounded himself with Enton because he didn't know where A was going to strike from. As for the other example, I know what you were trying to say. Once again, Sasuke avoided A's attack with an instantaneous Susano'o limb. He didn't flip himself over with his own body movement. That should've been obvious from the way his body was positioned as he was falling. 

Staying stationary is exactly the reason why A is going to be able to attack Tsunade without her being to hit him back.




> Not to mention this entire part: blocking Gai's Sekizō




A was in free fall. Of course Sasuke can react to A's attack if A charges or falls _straight_ at him. That's why he juked Sasuke out before attacking him in V2. You still haven't explained how dodging FRS is not the same or as difficult as dodging Tsunade's punch. Keep in mind that Sandaime Raikage dodged multiple FRS attempts up close.



BringerOfChaos said:


> Using real life as an example, a dude named Robert Ardito set the world record of punches per minute. He can throw 805 punches in 60 seconds.
> 
> Now, Usain Bolt can do a 100 meter dash in 9.58 seconds.
> 
> Both of what they do involve speed, but both aren't the same. Can Usain Bolt punches 805 times in 60 seconds? Can Robert Ardito do a 100 meter dash in 9.58 seconds?




No, Likes boss is arguing that A's general physical movement speed is equal or inferior to Tsunade's punching speed. We're not talking about how fast A can Body Flicker, we're talking about how fast A can move his body in a fashion that allows him to avoid Tsunade's punch (which may or may not involve some use of Body Flicker depending upon the situation). He's arguing that A's RCM gives no sort of boost to A's body movement speed at all, and that it only increases the speed of his Body Flicker.​


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Naawww. I think Ay is kinda overwanked tbh



Ay _is_ overrated generally, yes, but I don't think there's a question of him beating Tsunade.

When you can tango effectively with Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke, a guy who's unquestionably superior to Orochimaru who is >= Tsunade, it's kind of obvious that you're on another level from Tsunade.


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## Veracity (Feb 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> No, she doesn't. A was not using RCM there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What does RCM being activated have to do with anything? I mean unless you can prove how that increases his striking speed. I mean its explicitly stated that it increases his flicker and reactions- while also being shown to increase durability but it was never stated to increase arm speed. And feats do not dictate that.

Bruh really?? Okay do you want me to break this down to you even further? It does not matter if Sasuke knew where Ay was or not. He was ABLE to activate amaterasu in accordance to Ay's arm speed and not his flicker speed. Let's list exactly what happened back to back:
(1) Ay uses flicker and escapes Sasukes LoS
(2) Sasuke's head is still facing the same direction because Ay was so fast that Sasuke lost sight of him
(3) Ay appears behind Sasuke as his arm swings towards his face
(4)Sasuke, not knowing where Ay is, activates amaterasu
(5) Ay clobbers the shit outta Sasuke

That entire scene dictates that the only reason Sasuke could activate his amaterasu, was because Ay's arm was still speeding towards Sasuke. If Ay punched as fast as his flicker( several meters before Sasuke can move his head) then he would have punched Sasuke before the activation of Amaterasu.

I guess I'll concede on the second link as what happens is pretty confusing. 

Naw. Tsuande staying in one place, is the reason she's going to be able to follow up the blow tbh. Any other way, and shed be sent flying.

Um.... Raikage can complete a full kick in free-fall. Both Sasuke and Gaars were able to react at the speed in which Raikage was kicking. It wasn't V2 flicker speed. But it was his striking speed.


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## Icegaze (Feb 21, 2016)

It's odd that Ay has the feats of chopping Hachibi horn off yet swinging at Muu in a similar manner he couldn't biscet him 

I think Ay wins low diff 

With knowledge first thing he will attempt is to take her head off 

What people don't realise is this makes it a lot easier for tsunade to block since he knows exactly where he is going to attack 

For me this match ends quick hence low diff 

Either he fails to chop her head off and she kills him in 1 strike , or he chops her head off and she dies


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## Rocky (Feb 21, 2016)

The Raikage's body flicker is his body speed. There's no difference.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Katsuyu doesn't have the juice to overload Raikage's chakra system.



Sakura couldn't heal Naruto or restore his chakra because he was too strong.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Oh yeah, you're the one that thinks there's like five different kinds of speed.





FlamingRain said:


> There really are, though.



There is only one type of speed.  Raikage speed.  It is the fastest speed.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 21, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Anyone remember the time Killer Bee and Raikage decapitated Kisame?
> 
> Raikage does that here without her even reacting to the movement.



Raikage used kagebunshin and his bijuu sword dance.  Good times.


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## Finalbeta (Feb 21, 2016)

Ay wins easily


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## Saru (Feb 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> What does RCM being activated have to do with anything? I mean unless you can prove how that increases his striking speed. I mean its explicitly stated that it increases his flicker and reactions- while also being shown to increase durability but it was never stated to increase arm speed. And feats do not dictate that.




Both Tsunade and A attacked out of HT. If they attacked after using Body Flicker, then even by your logic A should have struck faster. None of this has to do with A's movement speed when using RCM.




> Bruh really?? Okay do you want me to break this down to you even further? It does not matter if Sasuke knew where Ay was or not. He was ABLE to activate amaterasu in accordance to Ay's arm speed and not his flicker speed. Let's list exactly what happened back to back:
> (1) Ay uses flicker and escapes Sasukes LoS
> (2) Sasuke's head is still facing the same direction because Ay was so fast that Sasuke lost sight of him
> (3) Ay appears behind Sasuke as his arm swings towards his face
> ...




Sasuke activated Amaterasu as soon as A slipped from his vision. It had nothing to do with A's arm because he didn't see A. I don't have the time or motivation to convince you otherwise.




> Um.... Raikage can complete a full kick in free-fall. Both Sasuke and Gaars were able to react at the speed in which Raikage was kicking. It wasn't V2 flicker speed. But it was his striking speed.




Because A was kicking Sasuke _in front of his face_.​


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## Veracity (Feb 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> Both Tsunade and A attacked out of HT. If they attacked after using Body Flicker, then even by your logic A should have struck faster. None of this has to do with A's movement speed when using RCM.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How does that change anything I've said then ? That doesn't prove that Raikage punched faster and thats literally the whole argument. And no Raikage and Tsuande would have ended their strikes st the same time. Only difference is that Raikage can also cross far distances almost instantly. And I'm still waiting on you to prove that RCM increases striking speed. I'm not convinced at all. 

I literally just spent all that time explaining to you how's that not the case lol. Sasuke activated amaterasu after Ays flicker but before Ay could punch him. That is in fact what happened. That's literally as simple as I can explain it. Him not knowing where Ay is has nothing to do with Ay's arm speed. 

Ummm. It still was a full kick. Most opponents happen to be in front of you when you try to attack them lol.


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## Dr. White (Feb 21, 2016)

RCM increases striking speed. It literally speeds his neurons and neuromuscular junction transmission speed which combined with his already extremely fit body makes him dominant stat wise.


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## Saru (Feb 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> How does that change anything I've said then ? That doesn't prove that Raikage punched faster and thats literally the whole argument. And no Raikage and Tsuande would have ended their strikes st the same time. Only difference is that Raikage can also cross far distances almost instantly. And I'm still waiting on you to prove that RCM increases striking speed. I'm not convinced at all.




That's not the whole argument. A punches faster _and_ (wait for it) moves his body faster too. Tsunade will never hit him.




> I literally just spent all that time explaining to you how's that not the case lol. Sasuke activated amaterasu after Ays flicker but before Ay could punch him. That is in fact what happened. That's literally as simple as I can explain it. Him not knowing where Ay is has nothing to do with Ay's arm speed.




You didn't prove anything. Sasuke didn't "react" to A's arm. He reacted to A slipping out of his LOS.




> Ummm. It still was a full kick. Most opponents happen to be in front of you when you try to attack them lol.




Sasuke can react to A's movements with the Mangekyou if they're taking place right in front of his eyes. _That's why A juked Sasuke out_.​


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## Veracity (Feb 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> That's not the whole argument. A punches faster _and_ (wait for it) moves his body faster too. Tsunade will never hit him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ay flickers faster yeah but doesn't actually punch faster. And If Ay is the middle of lariating Tsuande, then yes she can strike back. 

Well then were gonna have to agree to disgaree. I'm not gonna explain that panel over and over again if you're just gonna stick to the same opinion. Its a waste of time. 

The distance doesn't matter. Why would Sasuke be able to track Ay's movement speed from up close but not at a distance? Its easier to track things at a distance 

The reason Sasuke lost sight of Ay, was because Ay's flicker was simply that fast. His standard body movement, however, is not.


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## Saru (Feb 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Ay flickers faster yeah but doesn't actually punch faster. And If Ay is the middle of lariating Tsuande, then yes she can strike back.
> 
> Well then were gonna have to agree to disgaree. I'm not gonna explain that panel over and over again if you're just gonna stick to the same opinion. Its a waste of time.
> 
> ...




Where did you get distance from anything I just stated?

Better question, why does A have to use Lariat? Nothing wrong with his fists.​


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## Veracity (Feb 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> Where did you get distance from anything I just stated?
> 
> Better question, why does A have to use Lariat? Nothing wrong with his fists.​



Lol I think we should just agree to disgare here tbh. I dont think were ever gonna sway each other.

And you were talking about Raikage attacking Sasuke up close as opposed to at a distance.

That's true. I see the scene looking like this:Sannin Deadlock
Except for Tsunade can force the Raikage to block her strike, instead of simply getting her shit rocked.


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## Saru (Feb 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Lol I think we should just agree to disgare here tbh. I dont think were ever gonna sway each other.









> And you were talking about Raikage attacking Sasuke up close as opposed to at a distance.




That has nothing to do with the crux of your argument, which is that A cannot dodge Tsunade's counterattacks and has the same striking speed as Tsunade. What I was trying to address is your misinterpretation of what Sasuke was and was not able to "react" to. Sasuke needed the instantaneous construction of Susano'o to deal with A's elbow, and he was forced to use Enton to counter A's heel drop. Tsunade does not have these advantages. Your argument is weak, because you're essentially saying that A loses the bulk of his momentum from a Body Flicker when he goes to punch, which is absurd.

As for the Enton surrounding Sasuke's Susano'o...
​


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## Veracity (Feb 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> That has nothing to do with the crux of your argument, which is that A cannot dodge Tsunade's counterattacks and has the same striking speed as Tsunade. What I was trying to address is your misinterpretation of what Sasuke was and was not able to "react" to. Sasuke needed the instantaneous construction of Susano'o to deal with A's elbow, and he was forced to use Enton to counter A's heel drop. Tsunade does not have these advantages. Your argument is weak, because you're essentially saying that A loses the bulk of his momentum from a Body Flicker when he goes to punch, which is absurd.​


Lol except my argument isn't weak because none of my points had been disproven at all. You have just been side stepping them and quoting specific portions of my post. If anything that is the much weaker arguing technique.

And that's exactly where you misread me completely. Tsuande does not need those advantages, that is not the point of me bringing those panels up. I bring those panels up to show that Ay's flicker and his actual body movement are very different in terms of speed. Ay's flicker left an after image, dodged amaterasu, and appeared behind Sasuke without him knowing where Ay even was. He was so fast that Sasuke couldn't keep track of his movement. Ay then stops behind Sasuke( ending the flicker) and begins his arm chop, in which Sasuke could clearly react to and activate amaterasu. That's just there to show that Ay's flicker is what is super duper fast. Tsuande should actually be able to react to Ay's arm speed. I see her being able to at least grab Ay's arm after hes already punched a hole in her. 

And then you pretty much just say that no thats in fact not what happened and no Raikage is >>>>>>>>> Tsunade in every single facet of speed possible. and now my argument is weak? Fuck that. You just disagree. And I'll agree with you disagreeing.


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## Saru (Feb 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Lol except my argument isn't weak because none of my points had been disproven at all. You have just been side stepping them and quoting specific portions of my post. If anything that is the much weaker arguing technique.
> 
> And that's exactly where you misread me completely. Tsuande does not need those advantages, that is not the point of me bringing those panels up. I bring those panels up to show that Ay's flicker and his actual body movement are very different in terms of speed. Ay's flicker left an after image, dodged amaterasu, and appeared behind Sasuke without him knowing where Ay even was. He was so fast that Sasuke couldn't keep track of his movement. Ay then stops behind Sasuke( ending the flicker) and begins his arm chop, in which Sasuke could clearly react to and activate amaterasu. That's just there to show that Ay's flicker is what is super duper fast. Tsuande should actually be able to react to Ay's arm speed. I see her being able to at least grab Ay's arm after hes already punched a hole in her.
> 
> And then you pretty much just say that no thats in fact not what happened and no Raikage is >>>>>>>>> Tsunade in every single facet of speed possible. and now my argument is weak? Fuck that. You just disagree. And I'll agree with you disagreeing.




Explain how Sasuke "reacted" to A's attack with the eyes in the back of his head.

Then explain why A is unable to avoid Tsunade's fist when Sandaime Raikage was able to dodge consecutive, point-blank FRS.​


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## Veracity (Feb 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> Explain how Sasuke "reacted" to A's attack with the eyes in the back of his head.
> 
> Then explain why A is unable to avoid Tsunade's fist when Sandaime Raikage was able to dodge consecutive, point-blank FRS.​



He didn't know where Ay was. But he could activate enton a lot faster than Ay can swing. On the other hand, Ay's flicker is a lot faster than Entons activation. Evident by the fact that Ay could appear ALLL THE WAY behind Sasuke( several meters from his starting point) before Sasuke could even begin to realize Ay had moved. He's kinda just like oh shit lemme activate enton cause Ay legit just disappeared, but isn't actually able to activate the tech until Ay ends his flciker and is in the middle of swinging towards Sasuke.

How fast do you think FRS'S are? I mean Deva was point blank hopping over them shits, and he isn't even close to a speedster. Those were also thrown by Sage Naruto who is KCM Naruto's physical superior.

And I've already agreed that if Ay is only a trying yo Dodge Tsuande that he will succeed. That is , however,  Much easier to do then landing strikes and dodging. Especially considering Tsuande can eat blows and all she has to do is grab ahold of him. Honestly, if all I had to was eat a blow and grab Mayweather then I'm pretty I could accomplish that easily despite how fast he punches. Its a very different scenario if all he has to do is avoid me from grabbing him though.


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## Saru (Feb 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> He didn't know where Ay was. But he could activate enton a lot faster than Ay can swing. On the other hand, Ay's flicker is a lot faster than Entons activation. Evident by the fact that Ay could appear ALLL THE WAY behind Sasuke( several meters from his starting point) before Sasuke could even begin to realize Ay had moved.




_Tsunade doesn't have Enton_. What was your point in bringing this up originally? Because by your logic, Tsunade and A strike at the same speed, so Tsunade would have fared no better than A did in that situation.




> He's kinda just like oh shit lemme activate enton cause Ay legit just disappeared, but isn't actually able to activate the tech until Ay ends his flciker and is in the middle of swinging towards Sasuke.




What? What do you mean Sasuke was "not able to activate" Enton _*until*_ A ended his flicker? That's the problem. Sasuke's activation of Enton and A's attack speed have no correlation. Nothing was preventing Sasuke from activating Enton.




> How fast do you think FRS'S are? I mean Deva was point blank hopping over them shits, and he isn't even close to a speedster. Those were also thrown by Sage Naruto who is KCM Naruto's physical superior.




At point-blank range from Sandaime Raikage's blind spot? Faster than Tsunade can punch.




> And I've already agreed that if Ay is only a trying yo Dodge Tsuande that he will succeed. That is , however,  Much easier to do then landing strikes and dodging. Especially considering Tsuande can eat blows and all she has to do is grab ahold of him. Honestly, if all I had to was eat a blow and grab Mayweather then I'm pretty I could accomplish that easily despite how fast he punches. Its a very different scenario if all he has to do is avoid me from grabbing him though.




The situation is not so different that A would be unable to avoid Tsunade's relatively slow hits. 

And Mayweather would eat you alive. ​


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## Veracity (Feb 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> _Tsunade doesn't have Enton_. What was your point in bringing this up originally? Because by your logic, Tsunade and A strike at the same speed, so Tsunade would have fared no better than A did in that situation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's not my logic at all actually . The point of bringing that up is just to show that Ay's flicker> his movement speed. Nothing more or nothing less. Idk why you are trying to make it seem like that's my ONLY argument here. 

Um they do though?Activating enton was the only thing keeping Sasuke alive. As soon as Ay disappeared, Sasuke opted for Enton shielding. He just couldn't activate the technique until Ay was in the middle of swinging . Ay's flicker was just that fast, and the correlation is in fact there. 

☻And what makes you think that? Tsunade isn't android 16. Her punch doesn't have much of any range at all, while FRS is a projectile. I'm pretty sure if Tsuande punched Deva Pain at point blank range, he couldn't completely jump over her fist. He isn't a speedster and there's nothing in the manga that dictates that he would physically dominate Tsuande in speed. 

All Tsuande has to do is grab ahold of Raikage in CQC, while she is still getting hit. I don't know why that's such an impossibility to you. You can be a lot slower and pull that off tbh. Especially when being ragdolled is negated.

If I could explode Mayweather with a single punch, then I'm positive any human could create an opening to land a single strike lol. Unless you're physically or mentally impaired.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 21, 2016)

What the fuck is this horseshit about Tsunade being able to react to Ay's arm speed or whatever the fuck.

If she can't react to his Shunshin speed, she's not magically going to see his strike coming. You realize that even if Ay's arms were dangling while Ay performed his Shunshin they'd still be moving at speeds Tsunade can't react to, right?

When Ay's swinging, his ultra-Shunshin _adds_ to the speed of which he's striking with.

This is such a simple concept it's absurd this needs to be explained at all.

At 10, 15, 20, 25 meters, whatever, Tsunade gets her head cut off.


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## Icegaze (Feb 21, 2016)

yh like boss gotta disagree with your entire premise sounds massively desperate tsunade is only winning 

should Ay get his hand stuck half way through her neck and she manages to actually grab him. if she does then yes she wins

but this whole she puts chakra to her feet, takes his blow without flying then replies is abit far fetched

considering she would be reacting to A attack and A reacting to hers, however A is a whole lot more reflexsive and physically faster 

which means by the time her brain has computed time to punch, he has already computed time to move punch coming at my 12 oclock


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 21, 2016)

Think about it this way.

If I'm on a train moving 100 km/hour, and I jump off, I'm not going to roll effortlessly to my feet, brush some dust off my shirt, and fuck off to wherever backwater cesspool I came from. I'm going to hit the ground at 100 km/hour (horizontal), because when I was on that train, I was moving at that speed despite me myself not actually performing any physical exertion.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 21, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> This is such a simple concept it's absurd this needs to be explained at all.
> 
> At 10, 15, 20, 25 meters, whatever, Tsunade gets her head cut off.



Basically this, close the thread, this went far too long without any reason whatsoever.


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## Veracity (Feb 21, 2016)

Yeah what? All of the latter posts just seem like unsupported and bias information. Its not swaying anybody. I Honestly only care to respond to Rocky and Saru as they are posting structured arguements.


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## Icegaze (Feb 21, 2016)

you mean they are enabling you

the only argument that can be made for tsunade is she will know where A is going for. 

She can put chakra to her feet to avoid being slapped away

the counter is questionable as her synapses are simply slower than Ay for every thought she could have, Ay could 2 or more thought processes going through his mind

that cant be ignored despite your best efforts to do so


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## Veracity (Feb 21, 2016)

Except all that has been said and been countered in previous posts. You're honestly just reiterating old shit Rocky and Saru said before our actual arguements started. Its not really helpful and doesn't add anything here.

> Raikage bliztes of course DUHHHHH.
> Ay breaks her neck at 600 ft before she can blink an eye
> Ay is obviously a lot faster in CQC than Tsuande
> Sasuke is> Oro, therefore Ay beats Tsunade
Blah blah blah. Hearing that from different people doesnt mean anything at this point.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Except all that has been said and been countered in previous posts. You're honestly just reiterating old shit Rocky and Saru said before our actual arguements started. Its not really helpful and doesn't add anything here.
> 
> > Raikage bliztes off course
> > Ay breaks her neck at 600 ft before she can blink an eye
> ...


It should

Let it go boss, stop being a child about it.

She's 3.5 in speed, that's Beginning of Part 2 Naruto level. 

She's not going to do anything or react in time, especially against one of the fastest characters in the manga.


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## Veracity (Feb 21, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> It should
> 
> Let it go boss, stop being a child about it.
> 
> ...



None of what you said matters if you actually read what my I tial point was. This is literally a prime example of exactly what I was talking about. So many false things about this post.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Yeah what? All of the latter posts just seem like unsupported and bias information. Its not swaying anybody. I Honestly only care to respond to Rocky and Saru as they are posting structured arguements.



The fuck are you on about?

What you're doing is the equivalent of a flat-earther plugging his ears and yelling at the ceiling about the government is plotting to enslave us in their computer-generated matrix. Take off that tinfoil hat, you nutjob.

Plenty of people have posted copious amount of evidence that do everything to suggest that Tsunade _can't_ do shit to Ay. I don't know if you have some inexplicable anime boner for this character, but unless she's got better reactions than Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke, she isn't doing shit.


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## Icegaze (Feb 21, 2016)

lol love how someone argument can be 

you are all wrong and I am right

please in a debate with nothing factual..majority wins here

most people think Ay wins, we have all read the manga. there is a reason for this 

Ay wins because kishi portrayal of both have led us to believe he is more likely to than she is 

Even with 1 arm, he was handling susanoo better than she was. her recklessness is what made him go down...


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## Veracity (Feb 21, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> The fuck are you on about?
> 
> What you're doing is the equivalent of a flat-earther plugging his ears and yelling at the ceiling about the government is plotting to enslave us in their computer-generated matrix. Take off that tinfoil hat, you nutjob.
> 
> Plenty of people have posted copious amount of evidence that do everything to suggest that Tsunade _can't_ do shit to Ay. I don't know if you have some inexplicable anime boner for this character, but unless she's got better reactions than Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke, she isn't doing shit.



I'm not sure if you knew, but reverting to lame ass insults doesn't mean you've won an argument. Especially an argument that you have provided like 0 evidence for. 

Except if you didn't have blatant tunnel vision in this stipulation, you'd actually read my previous posts and know what my actual argument is. Never have I said Tsuande gets off free or that she's dodging Raikage here or something. No. She's taking that first shot right to the gut, difference is shell be able to grab onto Ay's arm and capitalize on the situation.


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## Icegaze (Feb 21, 2016)

and Ay aims her gut despite knowledge of who she is. he doesn't aim for her neck which is his obvious best bet

that's abit lame


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## Braiyan (Feb 21, 2016)

Manga knowledge means Ay resorts to chopping limbs and calls it a day when Tsunade's decapitated.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> There's speed, and then there are certain abilities that one may possess that are performed above the speeds at which they do everything else at. Iaidō, seal weaving, Acrobat, and most of Gai's gate techniques are examples.



Noticed that post today.

Quite honestly we (as in me and you specifically) have already debated the _Tsunade vs Raikage_ topic of the thread enough that I don't personally care to invest much time attempting to sway your opinion on _it_ (particularly now that I have more stuff to do than talk magic ninja on NF), but _this_ is a point I'd still raise regardless of it.

Those are all _still speed_, and there's _another_ example _in Tsunade_. Madara can move his arms quickly enough to _block a punch_ from a blitzing Raikage, yet when Tsunade and Raikage emerged from Tensō no Jutsu Madara threw up a guard and Tsunade was apparently still able to adjust accordingly to _kick beneath it_. She also kicked Susano'o before it was blasted away by the force of Raikage's Ohnoki-enhanced _Raigyaku Suihei_.

Tsunade might comparatively lag a bit in movement speed, but her speed when retaliating is up there. Tsunade being that type would justify Raikage seeing fit to bring Tsunade with him intent on stopping the Jinchūriki, still thinking she could get in there and help once they started fighting, and Tsunade herself thinking she could step up to fight as well as far as I'm concerned- if one were to go the route of treatment.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I'm not sure if you knew, but reverting to lame ass insults doesn't mean you've won an argument. Especially an argument that you have provided like 0 evidence for.
> 
> Except if you didn't have blatant tunnel vision in this stipulation, you'd actually read my previous posts and know what my actual argument is. Never have I said Tsuande gets off free or that she's dodging Raikage here or something. No. She's taking that first shot right to the gut, difference is shell be able to grab onto Ay's arm and capitalize on the situation.



Grab onto what? 

The dangling half of her body after Ay's ten meters away slowing down from his Shunshin while Tsunade's still processing what just happened?

Furthermore, why would Ay even let Tsunade grab him? You realize that his reflexes are _entire leagues_ above hers, even in base? She tries making a move for it, Ay catches her wrist and slices it clean off.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

Ei used his V2 from the start against Minato. And here we have the best kunoichi-medic in the world, the famous Sannin.

It is highly possible that Ei will activate V2 from the start. 

We saw in the manga what Tsunade can do against V2 Ei. When Ei activated V2, she joined the battle. Ei warned Naruto about his attack, attacked, missed and crushed the rock. What Tsunade did? She did absolutely nothing, because she mentally couldnt react at all.

Even within such a distance, Ei may be capable of beating her. If she will be able to summon Katsuyu and hide inside of her, he just goes through it, like he did with Hachibi's horn and Sasuke's Susanoo ribcage, and decapitates her. There is nothing in the manga to suggest that she can regrow her head.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> When Tsunade and Raikage emerged from Tensō no Jutsu Madara threw up a guard and Tsunade was apparently still able to adjust accordingly to _kick beneath it_.



It's safe to say that I disagree on that interpretation of the art. She threw a kick and Madara blocked it. The end. If she had really kicked under his guard, he probably would have gone flying off into a rock like Mū, who didn't guard, did.  



FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade might comparatively lag a bit in movement speed, but her speed when retaliating is up there.



This "retaliation speed" _is_ her movement speed. There is legitimately no difference whatsoever, and it isn't "up there." Tsunade is not fast. At all. In any way. Minato needed teleportation to stop Raikage from running him over, and Tsunade is _*far*_ below Minato. She'd get torn to pieces without being able to defend herself. 



FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade being that type would justify Raikage seeing fit to bring Tsunade with him intent on stopping the Jinchūriki, still thinking she could get in there and help once they started fighting, and Tsunade herself thinking she could step up to fight as well as far as I'm concerned- if one were to go the route of treatment.



Tsunade would have been useless in stopping Naruto from passing her, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that A wanted Tsunade to help with Killer B, who isn't too fast for her to deal with. Tsunade herself thinking she could step to A is irrelevant when Raikage quite literally ignored her and blew up the cliff where Naruto's head was a millisecond prior. She couldn't actually stop him from going after Naruto.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

All speed isn't the same.

Sasuke wasn't fast enough to duck Lee's kick so he said he had to block.  

Guy can fire punch 10,000 times per second in 6th gate, but Guy can't shunshin 10,000 times per second in in 6th because all speed is the same.  

Kakashi can activate kamui to intercept the kamui, but he's not fast enough to evade it.

Body movement speed isn't the same as arm speed in Sasuke v Lee.

Movement speed isn't the same as striking speed in Guy's example.

Jutsu execution speed isn't the same as movement speed in the Kakashi example.

I could go on but it's boring and you're just doing this to create the ideal interpretations for Raikage.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

Can you not. You know what I mean. A character's speed includes everything he does with a certain few techniques being the exception. Sasuke lost to Lee because he was too slow, not because Lee's foot speed was superior to Sasuke's chest speed or elbow speed or whatevertheshit speed. It's not that specific. That doesn't mean that Sasuke can block, dodge, and activate Susanoo all at the same speed. Since Itachi is faster than Sasuke, he can block, dodge, and activate Susanoo faster than Sasuke can. Like boss's fanfic speed chart where Tobirama has superior arm speed to this guy but worse reflexes and foot speed than that guy and all that nonsense is stupid. As is the notion that Tsunade strikes at some higher speed than everyone else on her 3.5/5 speed tier.



> I could go on but it's boring and you're just doing this to create the ideal interpretations for Raikage.



You, and everyone else who has supported Tsunade in this thread, has done just that for her speed with no ground to stand on. She's received less praise than Dodai has when it comes to speed, yet people feel the need to rationalize her reflexes to levels that rival Sharingan Sasuke or KCM Naruto, which is asinine. My interpretation is "Raikage is fast," while other's hold the belief that it goes "Raikage's Shunshin speed is fast, but Tsunade has comparable strike speed and body speed and CQC speed and urinating speed, so chakra to the feet tanks Shunshin and she hits him." Uh huh.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasuke lost to Lee because Lee had the difference in speed to force it into a contest of taijutsu, and the taijutsu skill to slip his kick under Sasuke's guard.

kick beneath it
kick beneath it

In general, if ninjas can't dodge, they can still block or attack.  If you're a ninjutsu type, you can activate ninjutsu better than you can dodge or block.  That's why Sasuke can activate Susano or Enton vs Ei, and why he used it when Minato and Tobirama and Naruto were running around and he had to participate.  It's why Kakashi fell to ninjutsu support in the fight with Obito.  



> As is the notion that Tsunade strikes at some higher speed than everyone else on her 3.5/5 speed tier.



Speed tiers stats don't exist anymore. Kishi threw them out in the last databook because they're now an obsolete and unreliable way to judge characters in the manga.  People who still use them cling to the old ways, afraid to enter a world without the safety of flawed numbers.  Stand in the light, and join the graduating class of Baka Rangers.  (The Baka Rangers Neo)


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 22, 2016)

Way I see it, there are only two types of speed: movement and striking speed.

Tsunade _might_ have comparable striking speed to base Raikage, but she gets dumped on as soon as the Raiton no Yoroi comes into play.

I'm hearing all this crap about Tsunade's 'retaliation speed' or whatever the fuck - _that's just her striking speed_. You don't have to make this that unnecessarily complicated. What I love about Tsunade supporters is the fucked up mental gymnastics they use to try to fabricate some dreamland scenario where she somehow tags something she can't see. Like, 'she recovers from the hit and retaliates and kills Raikage' or 'she predicts his movement and counters his attacks with super-taijutsu skills'.

The fuck? She fights like a mindless brute and moves in relative slow-motion to Ay. Even if she somehow doesn't get sent flying by Ay's punch, how is she going to punch Ay before the dude just sidesteps her casually or slices her arm off in the process? People suggesting she can 'counterblitz' him by throwing a punch he can't react to are _literally suggesting she has faster reflexes than he does._ She doesn't. Ay is briefly surprised by her not getting caved in by his punch, sees the counter-punch coming miles away and dodges, opting to finish the game by cutting her head off.

The end.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

If a ninja cannot dodge, they can probably block (or use ninjutsu). Minato probably would have been able to block A if he didn't have Hiraishin to get out of the way. That's Minato. Somebody who's famed for his reflexes. Tsunade is among the slowest of close combat reliant fighters in the entire story. She beats, like, the base Akimichis. She's not Gai or Itachi. She's not even Zabuza or Kakuzu.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 22, 2016)

lol idk if she isn't _Zabuza_ in speed, at the very least


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

An Iwa fodder slower than Kakashi can counter-attack the chidori speed Kakashi that just blitzed 20 of him.  Rock Lee said he couldn't ever use an attack like chidori despite being wtf faster than most people because the risk of counter-attack from any given person was too great.  Even hiraishin is always used with a distraction or when the opponent's guard is down to ensure success, which doesn't make sense to me but it's not my story.  I'm a big fan of speed, but it's not the win button in this series, and the person who moves first or faster isn't assured victory, and you don't have to have superior reflexes to combat it.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 22, 2016)

That's nice and all, but fact is, those reflexes _are_ an absolute must when we're talking about speeds the defendant can't even see, much less react to.

Ay reacted to Sasuke's instantaneous Enton flames materialising on his Susanō ribcage. No Tsunade counterattack or whatever is going to do him in.


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## Finalbeta (Feb 22, 2016)

Tsunade should lose after a hard fight


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> All speed isn't the same.
> 
> Sasuke wasn't fast enough to duck Lee's kick so he said he had to block.
> 
> ...



Go on. Bring it.

Because i have this.



After Ei activated V2 (and he will most likely do that from the start against the legendary Sannin and the best ninja-medic in the world), Tsunade said that this time she is fighting as well. Ei warned Naruto about the attack, attacked him, missed, crushed some random rock, and Tsunade was just standing there. She couldnt do anything.

Because she couldnt mentally react to that kind of speed.

That feat alone makes it doubtful that Tsunade will be able to summon Katsuyu and get inside of her before Ei reaches her and cuts her head off even from such a distance - 200 meters (summoning Katsuyu is her only chance). But even if she does, Ei will probably go right through Katsuyu thanks to his chop which broke Sasuke's Susanoo ribs, cut off Raikage's own hand and cut off Hachibi's horn. 

Ei most likely wins this due to V2 which most likely will be activated from the start. He did that against Minato, for example.


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## Saru (Feb 22, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Answer this. Do you think Sasuke started to activate his enton right after Ay began his flicker? If you think yes then Sasuke would have to have activated enton in response to his arm speed and not flicker.




I do believe I asked you a question first. However, If you don't see what's faulty with that reasoning after everything I've said and the context of that entire chapter, then I will probably never be able to convince you. I also can't convince you that A's striking speed is faster in RCM beyond all of the evidence that I and everyone else in this thread has provided.




> You know why your argument holds no merit? Because Ay began and finished his flicker all before Sasuke even started his activation of enton. That means that Sasuke had 0 reaction to Ays actual flicker, and could only react to Ays arm speed.







You still haven't answered my question, and have instead tried to nonsensically turn around the question that I asked you on me. _*How did Sasuke react to A with eyes in the back of his head*_? Answer that question. If not, I will take that as concession and failure to address the *major* flaw in your argument.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Go on. Bring it.
> 
> Because i have this.
> 
> ...



That's no different than Tsunade jumping ahead of Shizune and Jiraiya when they went to back her up.


*Spoiler*: __ 









This doesn't prove that Jiraiya or Shizune or Naruto couldn't mentally react to Kabuto's attack, or Kabuto could have blitzed over and thrown blood in their eyes.  It doesn't mean anything.


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## Itachі (Feb 22, 2016)

I also disagree with the notion that Tsunade will counter Raikage's attack. Sandaime Raikage was dodging FRS like it was nothing, Yondaime shouldn't have any trouble at all reacting to her. Obviously CQC is different but a lot of people doubt that Tsunade can keep up with Hebi Sasuke in CQC, I don't see how Tsunade can be anything but overwhelmed by Ei.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> That's no different than Tsunade jumping ahead of Shizune and Jiraiya when they went to back her up.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Naruto, a little boy, may not want to attack Kabuto fromk the start. And Tsunade hit Jiraya in the scan you've provided.

Tsunade, in my scans, said that now she is fighting as well, meaning that she is gonna fight Ei. And what can we see after that? She did nothing, absolutely nothing. And the reason was simple - she couldnt mentally react to that kind of speed. She was sh*tting her pants when she saw how KCM Naruto keeps up with V1 Ei and here was Ei at his best - V2.

Ei most likely wins this due to his huge speed advantage.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

You left out Shizune.  Is that because it hurt your argument?


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> You left out Shizune.  Is that because it hurt your argument?



Nope, it doesnt. Maybe Shizune didnt want to rush at him - Tsunade can heal herself anyway, so she can. The fact is - Tsunade said she is gonna fight as well. And after that, she did nothing at all, even after Ei was talking about killing Naruto before that V2 activation. V2 Ei warned Naruto about his attack, attacked, missed, crushed some rock and Tsunade was standing there, unable to do anything.

That's how far faster he is compare to her. Judging from that, i highly doubt she will hide in Katsuyu before Ei hits her even from such a distance. Will he use V2 against her, when he used it against Minato? With her level of hype - most likely yes.

Can he decapitate her? Yes, even if she uses Byakugou seal. She has never tanked anything comparable to Ei's V2 chop. And before you bring here "Kusanagi" arguement - it went through her breastbone with ease. 

Ei most likely wins this fight via decapitation.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

> Nope, it doesnt. Maybe Shizune didnt want to rush at him



So it wasn't because the fight was too fast for her to process.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> So it wasn't because the fight was too fast for her to process.



Did she say that she is gonna attack, or fighting as well, or something like that?

Tsunade said that "this time i am fighting as well". I highly doubt that she wanted to know if KCM Naruto could dodge that attack or not, especially knowing that Ei might kill him. Hell, that was one of the reasons why Tsunade joined the fight - to prevent Naruto from being killed.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

They came to stop Orochimaru and they stepped in front of Tsunade to be a barrier.  They didn't want him to capture her, or for her to go with him.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> An Iwa fodder slower than Kakashi can counter-attack the chidori speed Kakashi that just blitzed 20 of him.  Rock Lee said he couldn't ever use an attack like chidori despite being wtf faster than most people because the risk of counter-attack from any given person was too great.



Now you're being disingenuous. Raikage doesn't suffer from the "I can't see the opponent's counter" thing because of his lightning nerves. He scanned through Minato's Kunai looking for his landing spot in the middle of punching Minato. Tunnel vision isn't an issue for him, just like it wasn't as issue for Kakashi or Sasuke once they got Sharingans. Oh, and Rock Lee lied to you, because he ran at Gaara and kicked him up into the air once he open the gates, probably because he was fast enough to kick Gaara before Gaara could throw any counters out...just like Raikage is fast enough to punch Tsunade in the face before she can do anything.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> It's safe to say that I disagree on that interpretation of the art. She threw a kick and Madara blocked it.  The end.



You disagree because you straight up ignore the illustration. Tsunade's foot doesn't line up with Madara's arms, the lines around Tsunade's foot denoting the point of impact are lower than Madara's arms, and Madara's body forms a C from his midsection with his upper body going forward unlike the _L_ (or even more obtuse angle) it should have been forming if Tsunade's kick had connected with his arms up there and they took the force instead of his torso. She didn't hit his guard. _"The end."_



> If she had really kicked under his guard, he probably would have gone flying off into a rock like Mū, who didn't guard, did.



Madara could have started flipping like that in order to recover whether he successfully guarded or not.



> This "retaliation speed" _is_ her movement speed. There is legitimately no difference whatsoever.



Her movement speed would be her speed when moving across a distance- not her striking speed. Teleportation only takes Minato from point A to point B. Minato teleported to avoid being punched. He didn't need teleportation to strike Raikage with a kunai before he could get away (or backhand him in the manner Minato about did to Obito) despite Raikage being enhanced by RCM- that's simply the speed at which he strikes, which is different than his movement speed. Give Minato Sōzō Saisei instead of Hiraishin and he'd still be able to hit Raikage. It's also Minato's  that he's famous for, not his reflexes (they're great, but not what he's famous for).



> Tsunade would have been useless in stopping Naruto from passing her, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that A wanted Tsunade to help with Killer B, who isn't too fast for her to deal with. Tsunade herself thinking she could step to A is irrelevant when Raikage quite literally ignored her and blew up the cliff where Naruto's head was a millisecond prior. She couldn't actually stop him from going after Naruto.



She wouldn't have been able to stop either from running from her unless she had a Shunshin way better than Sasuke's. Raikage wanted Tsunade to help because he thought she'd be able to handle it if the Jinchūriki came at her (which it would have looked to him like they were about to start doing), not because he thought she could intercept them when they took off. That's what Tsunade was thinking when she told Raikage that his stubborn butt would have to go through her _while she was standing in front of Naruto_. Raikage could only go straight after Naruto because Naruto himself started moving away from Tsunade, so it isn't irrelevant. He _"ignored her"_ about like Kabuto _"ignored"_ Jiraiya.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> They came to stop Orochimaru and they stepped in front of Tsunade to be a barrier.  They didn't want him to capture her, or for her to go with him.



And that's why Jiraya let kabuto hit her and Shizune, although capable of reacting afterwards, was just screaming.

Tsunade herself said that she is fighting as well. After those words, she joined the fight. But against V2, she couldnt do anything. It is clear as day that she couldnt react. At all.

That's how "fast" she is compare to v2 Ei. Even within such a distance, V2 Ei may be able to speedblitz her.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> You disagree because you straight up ignore the illustration. Tsunade's foot doesn't line up with Madara's arms, the lines around Tsunade's foot denoting the point of impact are lower than Madara's arms, and Madara's body forms a C from his midsection with his upper body going forward unlike the _L_ (or even more obtuse angle) it should have been forming if Tsunade's kick had connected with his arms up there and they took the force instead of his torso. She didn't hit his guard. _"The end."_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We couldnt be sure about Madara blocking Tsunade's kick until he showed how fast he is against V2 Ei and BM Naruto's shadow clone. Madara clearly blocked that kick.

And even within such a distance - 200 meters - Ei has a good chance of blitzing.


----------



## J Senju (Feb 22, 2016)

Raikage wins. Raikage would just blitz and lariat her head right off. Her healings jutsu is meaningless without a head. 

Low difficulty


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> We couldnt be sure about Madara blocking Tsunade's kick until he showed how fast he is against V2 Ei and BM Naruto's shadow clone. Madara clearly blocked that kick.



That doesn't mean he blocked Tsunade's kick.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

Ei still suffers.  It's why he took chidori and didn't hit Sasuke.  It's why he blew up that rock behind Naruto.  It's why he got blocked by Madara.  You just won't admit it or believe it or care for it for some reason, but that's your prerogative.  I don't imagine you'll ever change your mind on this.

Rock Lee zoomed around Gaara to hide his attack.  He did the same vs Kimi.  It's how lotus works, and it's like that because they need an opening to land their kick.  Even then it didn't work on Kimi because he could counter with his bloodlimit.  Likewise, even when Gaara was getting kicked through the air, he was still able to substitute with ninjutsu, as he is a ninjutsu fighter.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> That doesn't mean he blocked Tsunade's kick.



Well, judging from his feats, he most likely did.

Maybe you have a proof that he didnt block it?


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Look at the first paragraph in that post you quoted.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

> Ei still suffers. It's why he took chidori and didn't hit Sasuke. It's why he blew up that rock behind Naruto. It's why he got blocked by Madara. You just won't admit it or believe it or care for it for some reason, but that's your prerogative. I don't imagine you'll ever change your mind on this.



Ei can go right through her with his chop. He can cut Tsunade to pieces. Sasuke (who couldnt follow V2 Ei's movements by the way), KCM Naruto, Madara - all of them are a lot faster than Tsunade.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> And that's why Jiraya let kabuto hit her and Shizune, although capable of reacting afterwards, was just screaming.
> 
> Tsunade herself said that she is fighting as well. After those words, she joined the fight. But against V2, she couldnt do anything. It is clear as day that she couldnt react. At all.
> 
> That's how "fast" she is compare to v2 Ei. Even within such a distance, V2 Ei may be able to speedblitz her.



You're obsessed with something that doesn't matter.  

Tsunade said the next time Ei tries something, she'll be coming along with Naruto and Bee too.  This is premised on Raikage having to get past her to reach Naruto.  Then Naruto runs off from her blind spot and shunshin to a corner.  She can't see this, but Raikage can.  Raikage says, "I'm coming," and then Ei also run off to a corner instead of to the Naruto she thinks is behind her.  She followed Ei's movements, and watched the exchange, which wasn't lost on her.

We had similar things throughout.  Obito rushed ahead of Kakashi, fodder ninjas got trigger happy and broke line in the war, Naruto rushed ahead of his team to engage Kabuto who schooled him and his clone, Kabuto again when Shizune had to save him, he did it to Sasuke when Lee challenged him, it happened a lot to multiple members of the SRA team and Sound 4 through that arc, Sakura said she'd engage Sasuke only to have Yamato come up from behind and go on ahead, Naruto and Sasuke both did it to each other in the Haku fight, Haku did it to take Kakashi's stab, Sasuke did it to his team during the fight with Team Kumo right before they had to save him, it happened various times to various teams in the FoD, Chouji did it to Kakashi and Ino when he crushed to of Kakuzu's masks.  It's common enough to have a  and there's a Naruto episode


----------



## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> You disagree because you straight up ignore the illustration.



No, I disagree because I think this:



FlamingRain said:


> Madara could have started flipping like that in order to recover whether he successfully guarded or not.



...is nonsense. If Tsunade had actually kicked him cleanly in the stomach, he would have joined Mū in that rock or gone flying off into something else without recovering just like everybody else in the manga who's ever been hit by a super strong character without guarding. 

And by the way, even if we say it was a clean kick, that doesn't mean she saw his guard and adjusted. It could mean that Madara put a guard up in the wrong spot. If he instinctively raised his arms to protect his face because Tsunade was suddenly in it, then her kick would land regardless of whether or not she saw him guard. 



FlamingRain said:


> Her movement speed would be her speed when moving across a distance- not her striking speed.



A character with high movement speed has equally high striking speed and vice versa. Some characters use certain techniques that are exceptions to this, but Tsunade is not once of those characters. 



FlamingRain said:


> Give Minato Sōzō Saisei instead of Hiraishin and he'd still be able to hit Raikage.



Minato was only able to swing at Raikage because he unexpectedly teleported (away from Raikage's fastest punch) into a position that allowed him to do so. Give Minato Creation Rebirth instead of Hiraishin and he gets punched in the face. He wouldn't be able to lay a finger on Raikage. His movements would be too predictable. Multiply that by one hundred for Tsunade, who doesn't compare to Minato in anything speed related. 



FlamingRain said:


> It's also Minato's  that he's famous for, not his reflexes (they're great, but not what he's famous for).



If a Cloud ninja is using the reflexes of a Leaf ninja that has been dead for over a dozen years as a hype tool, the Leaf ninja was probably pretty famous for them.  



FlamingRain said:


> Raikage could only go straight after Naruto because Naruto himself started moving away from Tsunade, so it isn't irrelevant. He _"ignored her"_ about like Kabuto _"ignored"_ Jiraiya.



Tsunade being unable to stop Naruto from running off is my point. We're discussing speed. She didn't want Raikage to go after Naruto, but she could do nothing to stop it from happening.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Ei still suffers. [...] You just won't admit it or believe it or care for it for some reason, but that's your prerogative.



Oh please. It's canon that he doesn't suffer from it because he applied a strategy on-panel that would have been impossible if he did. If he's going too fast to see Minato counter-attack him, then he would have been going to fast to turn his head and scan the environment in search for Minato mid-strike. [1]



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Rock Lee zoomed around Gaara to hide his attack.



[2][3]


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## Icegaze (Feb 22, 2016)

common people rocky is right on a lot here tbh

how can raikage suffer from tunnel vision if he has enhanced his reflexes using RCM and mid way through his super fast punch is thinking up a strategy to counter minato while observing where the kunai are

that doesn't sound like something lee could do considering he clearly said he suffered from tunnel vision

one thing though tsunade fans: If sharingan which enhances reflexes gets rid of tunnel vision 

why wont RCM which also gets rid of tunnel vision?

more to the point how could tsunade exploit this fan fic tunnel vision? all she is going to do is try punch or kick him while he is right infront of her.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

The second time he was intending to bait the jump.  His punch wasn't serious.  You can see that he waited to throw it until he was next to Minato, and it was half hearted in comparison to his first haymaker.  You can also take the utter ease at which Minato evaded the second go as further proof, or you can just say Minato had his number.  

Huh, Gaara raised a guard.  Against speed he couldn't guard against.  What was his speed at that time.... a 1 vs Lee's 4 amped by 5 gates?

Though that's true, I forgot he dashed straight.  It's still a drop followed by an upward kick, which is a lot safer than a straight thrust.  The motion gets your body out of the way of most direct shots, and he's using the longest part of his body.  You can see the motion in action in hook kick counters, though you can argue Kishi wasn't considering that detail.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

> common people rocky is right on a lot here tbh



Rocky had me for a second on the Lee dash and Starwanderer made me accidentally listen to an episode of Naruto.  I'm not begrudging anyone anything.


----------



## Saru (Feb 22, 2016)

People are tying to argue that Madara didn't block Tsunade's kick? 

The next implication in questioning that panel would be that Madara couldn't block Tsunade's kick. I see where this is going. Madara clearly blocked Tsunade's attack. It's pointless to argue over that panel. Especially considering that Madara was caught off guard and blinded by the light of Heavenly Transfer and therefore at a disadvantage to begin with. Terrible feat to use unless you're supporting some meta KC strategy with Tsunade and C.​


----------



## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> The second time he was intending to bait the jump. His punch wasn't serious.



Most of the strikes Raikage throws are ones he expects to connect cleanly because there aren't many shinobi in existence that can defend themselves from his speed. When Minato demonstrated that he could react to A, A threw a feint to bait Minato into a certain action and planned to capitalize on it with his speed.

Tsunade is _not even close_ to Madara, Sasuke, or Minato in the reflex department. She cannot defend herself in the first place. Raikage would run behind her and decapitate her like he tried to do to Sasuke, only Tsunade doesn't have instant fire Susanoo to cover her neck or Sasuke's reflexes to actually use it. The limitations of her regeneration are up for debate, not her ability to counter-strike him. She's not the Yellow Flash.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

Gaara must have been close in reflexes to 5th Gate Lee to put his arms up and see his punch coming.  Right?


----------



## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

Are you serious? Gaara is literally saying he cannot defend himself in that scan, and he's getting blitzed to death throughout that entire chapter.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 22, 2016)

lol actually the best comparison to use for this fight is literally lee vs gaara

tsunade would simply take a pummelling

what I expect tsunade fans to argue is her ability to regrow a head because short of that A wins without much trouble


----------



## Saru (Feb 22, 2016)

The CTF argument might be plausible if A were Kid Kakashi and couldn't keep up with the speed of his own attacks. Let alone Tsunade's.​


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## Icegaze (Feb 22, 2016)

chakra to the feet would work if A had no knowledge and didn't aim to remove tsunade head.

if he tries other tactics her chances of winning rapidly increase

however the guy got every reason to remove her head. like every single reason


----------



## Veracity (Feb 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> I do believe I asked you a question first. However, If you don't see what's faulty with that reasoning after everything I've said and the context of that entire chapter, then I will probably never be able to convince you. I also can't convince you that A's striking speed is faster in RCM beyond all of the evidence that I and everyone else in this thread has provided.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I actually answererd your question too. And yes you will not convince me that otherwise and vice versa. Do not make seem like you have provided this in depth analysis of the panels because you haven't . I'm not ignoring what you said to be bias. I'm ignoring what you said because I know it's wrong. We can agree to disagree here lol. 

Bruh? Not only did I explain to you why that part of your argument isn't even relevant, but I gave you a scenario that coincided with the main argument. So fuck a concession.☻ If anything you are conceding considering you skipped everything I said and basically exclaimed " answer my question or you lose." 

And no  nobody has provided any concrete evidence as to why RCM would increase his speed. It doesn't even do that via feats at all. All you said was it increases his reactions therefore it increases his arm speed. That'd legit like the worst amount of evidence ever. The yin seal boosts the chakra inside Tsunade's body, and ninja can use chakra to increase their hand speed. Therefore Tsuande can punch faster with the Yin seal activated. I'll go with that. 

@TastyMuffin.

Grab onto Ay as he punches her.... I think I've said that in previous posts.

This is also another reason you should probably glance at previous posts before hooping on at insulting posters. Tsunade can use chakra to the feet to negate the ragdoll effect.

I know his reflexes are superior but his actual body speed outside of flicker isn't all that impressive.☻ If Ay literally has his fist shoved inside Tsunade, she can easily grab ahold of it as she's taking the damage from the blow. I mean for fucks Sake, Suigetsu, Sasuke, KCM Naruto, Jugo, a Sussano clone and Base Killer Bee all were able to react to Raikagest attacks at one point. To think Tsunade is just 100% fucked is beyond me.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 22, 2016)

@Icegaze

Well Minato was hyped to he the fastest shinobi at his time, so not using full speed would simply be illogical. 

Madara has more hype than anyone in this discussion so it makes sense that full speed was used. 

I guess if you wanna assume that Ay goes V2 off the bat at 600 ft, then Tsuande probably just camps inside Katsuyu making this a pretty boring matchup. She would outlast Ay in that scenario as she could probably summon 10% Katsuyu which can spit Bjuii sized acid balls.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> You're obsessed with something that doesn't matter.
> 
> Tsunade said the next time Ei tries something, she'll be coming along with Naruto and Bee too.  This is premised on Raikage having to get past her to reach Naruto.  Then Naruto runs off from her blind spot and shunshin to a corner.  She can't see this, but Raikage can.  Raikage says, "I'm coming," and then Ei also run off to a corner instead of to the Naruto she thinks is behind her.  She followed Ei's movements, and watched the exchange, which wasn't lost on her.
> 
> We had similar things throughout.  Obito rushed ahead of Kakashi, fodder ninjas got trigger happy and broke line in the war, Naruto rushed ahead of his team to engage Kabuto who schooled him and his clone, Kabuto again when Shizune had to save him, he did it to Sasuke when Lee challenged him, it happened a lot to multiple members of the SRA team and Sound 4 through that arc, Sakura said she'd engage Sasuke only to have Yamato come up from behind and go on ahead, Naruto and Sasuke both did it to each other in the Haku fight, Haku did it to take Kakashi's stab, Sasuke did it to his team during the fight with Team Kumo right before they had to save him, it happened various times to various teams in the FoD, Chouji did it to Kakashi and Ino when he crushed to of Kakuzu's masks.  It's common enough to have a  and there's a Naruto episode



Naruto shunshinned forward, that dodging was in her field of vision.Anyway, her words make that different from other examples. She said that this time, she is fighting as well. She joined the fight. But instead of doing something, she stood there and that's all. That shows how pathetic she is compare to V2 Ei in terms of speed. That's a clear feat in Raikage's favor.

Judging from that feat, i highly doubt she will hide in Katsuyu even within such a distance. 

Tsunade, most likely, dies.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 22, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> @Icegaze
> 
> Well Minato was hyped to he the fastest shinobi at his time, so not using full speed would simply be illogical.
> 
> ...



tsunade has never camped inside katsuyu nor is that even possible. that's a cheap cop out. very disappointing argument 

why didn't she just do that against susanoo clones?

bijuu sized acid balls would still be slow therefore would be evaded. I mean base bee crosses mountain ranges in 1 shunshin...V2 A is so many leagues above that in speed

how big is this acid ball for anyone to assume its going to be relevant in a match up ?

tsunade also cant summon 10% katsuyu not when her and sakura summoned like 5% and sakura seems to have had more chakra hype than her

god ruto clone don't have enough chakra but the addition of sakura seemed enough. and sakura after healing obito for a while still had enough chakra to pump into his kamui to get them back 

we know sasuke didn't contribute since he cant transfer chakra

long story short 10% katsuyu is above tsunade abilities. and katsuyu camping is a cheap I don't want tsunade to loose excuse, since its completely out of character and fairly silly tactic


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> tsunade has never camped inside katsuyu nor is that even possible. that's a cheap cop out. very disappointing argument
> 
> why didn't she just do that against susanoo clones?
> 
> ...



It's obvious that Raikage is above Tsunade even within such a distance. I dont know why people are still argueing.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> tsunade has never camped inside katsuyu nor is that even possible. that's a cheap cop out. very disappointing argument
> 
> why didn't she just do that against susanoo clones?
> 
> ...


It actually is possible if you've read the manga. And Tsuandes never been placed in that situation. She did , however, place the majority of Konoha inside Katsuyu units to survive the damage from CST, so we know its within in her ability and mindset. This is the battledome, so yes I see Tsuande using that tactic if it keeps her alive. If everyone fought panel for panel how they did within the manga then we would have very different debates. 

The acid ball wouldnt hit Ay the first try no. But considering Ay has to buildup bjuii levels of chakra for a speedy flicker( never once chained flickers together btw) he may eventually be caught of guard. Especially considering Katsuyu can split into Kurama sized units and swarm Ay from different angles.

I mean you can believe that if you want. Facts are though, Sakura was needed because both Shinobi then used Katsuyu to heal thousands of allies. Tsuande is not healing an entire army, therefore she has a lot more chakra at her disposal. Considering she can summon 5% Katsuyu when she's almost completely drained, its safe to say she can summon a lot more than 5% when she's full replenished.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> No, I disagree because I think this:
> 
> ...is nonsense.



It's nonsense that Tsunade's foot beneath Madara's arms actually hit his arms, that the point of impact was against Madara's arms despite being depicted lower than his arms, and that Tsunade hitting Madara's raised arms folded him like that instead of knocking him into an L or more obtuse instead of acute angle like Mū or Madara himself later. And again being hit in his arms or stomach Madara could have flipped in order to recover either way.



> And by the way, even if we say it was a clean kick, that doesn't mean she saw his guard and adjusted. It could mean that Madara put a guard up in the wrong spot. If he instinctively raised his arms to protect his face because Tsunade was suddenly in it, then her kick would land regardless of whether or not she saw him guard.



Instinctively raising his arms in front of his face is what we saw Kabuto do, but not Madara. It wouldn't have been until noticing that she'd arrived with a Madara suddenly in front of her that Tsunade would have even known to throw a kick; _with his eyes_ Madara would have been able to see that and then put up his guard, meaning Tsunade simply detected it and adjusted accordingly right before actually connecting with it.



> A character with high movement speed has equally high striking speed and vice versa. Some characters use certain techniques that are exceptions to this.



That's often not even the case in real life, though (I could tell you as both a sprinter _and_ martial artist those _are_ distinct traits irl regardless of both being labeled _"speed"_). Those _"certain techniques"_ are simply particularly pronounced examples, not magical deviations from some unspoken rule. There isn't anything stopping Tsunade from boasting a striking speed that's high relative to her movement speed, and going by showings she does.



> Give Minato Creation Rebirth instead of Hiraishin and he gets punched in the face.



I can see that this would turn into the same discussion we've already been through that I mentioned yesterday, so I'm not about to bother with trying to move you on it at the moment.



> If a Cloud ninja is using the reflexes of a Leaf ninja that has been dead for over a dozen years as a hype tool, the Leaf ninja was probably pretty famous for them.



Or his boss who fought him so many times told him about it at some point.



> Tsunade being unable to stop Naruto from running off is my point.



And nobody was arguing that, as that point would be inconsequential regarding mine.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 22, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> It actually is possible if you've read the manga. And Tsuandes never been placed in that situation. She did , however, place the majority of Konoha inside Katsuyu units to survive the damage from CST, so we know its within in her ability and mindset. This is the battledome, so yes I see Tsuande using that tactic if it keeps her alive. If everyone fought panel for panel how they did within the manga then we would have very different debates.
> 
> The acid ball wouldnt hit Ay the first try no. But considering Ay has to buildup bjuii levels of chakra for a speedy flicker( never once chained flickers together btw) he may eventually be caught of guard. Especially considering Katsuyu can split into Kurama sized units and swarm Ay from different angles.
> 
> I mean you can believe that if you want. Facts are though, Sakura was needed because both Shinobi then used Katsuyu to heal thousands of allies. Tsuande is not healing an entire army, therefore she has a lot more chakra at her disposal. Considering she can summon 5% Katsuyu when she's almost completely drained, its safe to say she can summon a lot more than 5% when she's full replenished.



so on what basis is it possible considering camping in katsuyu has never happened or even been remotely implied. katsuyu isn't susanoo here. 

she has most certainly been placed in that situation. susanoo clones ring a bell? don't u think it would have helped her to camp in that situation vs being susanoo pin cushion ?

they weren't inside katsuyu units!! scans..katsuyu was on them and healed the damage they suffered. katsuyu body did not engulf them to defend them. it simply held on to them and healed the damage while it was happening 

never once chained flickers together really dude? he did against minato....and against Naruto. he used flickers back to back 

though I could say Ay has never been put in a situation where he needed to chain flickers...

 

10% katsuyu if you want is still too slow to make a difference. perhaps why she did not summon it against madara clones. Also this acid got no feats to suggest it even damages A so not sure why its being brought up to begin with


----------



## Saru (Feb 22, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I actually answererd your question too.




You actually didn't, and you still haven't.





> Bruh? Not only did I explain to you why that part of your argument isn't even relevant, but I gave you a scenario that coincided with the main argument. So fuck a concession.☻ If anything you are conceding considering you skipped everything I said and basically exclaimed " answer my question or you lose."




It's highly relevant to _your_ argument. I didn't bring up Sasuke using Enton. I pointed out a flaw in your argument that Sasuke "reacted" to A's arm considering that Sasuke doesn't have eyes in the back of his head, and you proceeded to give an extended analogy about location which is entirely irrelevant to Sasuke's ability to see someone behind him with his head turned. I skipped everything else because it's futile to argue with you when you're asking questions like "what makes you think FRS is fast?" It crossed a crater formed by Chibaku Tensei within a second [1] [2], and it was able to match pace with Killer B's Bijūdama [3]. In the instance it was used against Sandaime Raikage, it was being backed by KCM Naruto's chakra arms. The same chakra arms that outsped Muu and sacked him mid-Jinton [4].

Context makes it clear that Naruto failed to land FRS not once but _twice_ due to Sandaime Raikage's speed, and the attack was even closer to Sandaime the second go-around.

***​



*Dodai*: _"That level of attack isn't going to work!"_

*Naruto*: _"I know the Raikage are all *incredibly fast*!"_

***​



> And no  nobody has provided any concrete evidence as to why RCM would increase his speed. It doesn't even do that via feats at all. All you said was it increases his reactions therefore it increases his arm speed. *That'd legit like the worst amount of evidence ever*. The *yin seal boosts the chakra inside Tsunade's body*, and ninja can use chakra to increase their hand speed. *Therefore Tsuande can punch faster* with the Yin seal activated. I'll go with that.




So Tsunade gets a speed boost with the Yin Seal, but _the Raikage_ doesn't get a speed boost by amping up his chakra with RCM? You can't be serious. ​


----------



## Bringer (Feb 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> so on what basis is it possible considering camping in katsuyu has never happened or even been remotely implied. katsuyu isn't susanoo here.



I personally don't think Tsunade would turtle inside of Katsuyu, but I wouldn't write it off as OOC(besides Tsunade can just stand on top of Katsuyu and Ei won't even be able to touch her because as soon as he tries to walk on Katsuyu he gets slurped up) 



> she has most certainly been placed in that situation. susanoo clones ring a bell? don't u think it would have helped her to camp in that situation vs being susanoo pin cushion ?



How would've camping helped Tsunade against 5 Susanoo clones? Katsuyu can't solo 5 Susanoo clones with infinite chakra. Katsuyu can however solo Ei. 

Also Tsunade was about to summon Katsuyu against perfect Susanoo. When Madara was going to slash them she made the ram hand seal, which is the last seal for summoning jutsu. 



> they weren't inside katsuyu units!! scans..katsuyu was on them and healed the damage they suffered. katsuyu body did not engulf them to defend them. it simply held on to them and healed the damage while it was happening



Too lazy to get scans, but Sakura was inside Katsuyu, and we even see Katsuyu pushing Sakura out of her body. 

Also the Gokage were inside Katsuyu when Tsunade was healing them. 





> 10% katsuyu if you want is still too slow to make a difference. perhaps why she did not summon it against madara clones. Also this acid got no feats to suggest it even damages A so not sure why its being brought up to begin with



>Too slow to make a difference
>AOE acid, invulnerability to Ei's attacks, can literally cover the entire battlefield with acid spitting clones

5% Katsuyu would be enough, 10% is overkill.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 22, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I personally don't think Tsunade would turtle inside of Katsuyu, but I wouldn't write it off as OOC(besides Tsunade can just stand on top of Katsuyu and Ei won't even be able to touch her because as soon as he tries to walk on Katsuyu he gets slurped up)



this implies katsuyu got the reaction to slurp him up once he runs on it. highly doubtful 




> How would've camping helped Tsunade against 5 Susanoo clones? Katsuyu can't solo 5 Susanoo clones with infinite chakra. Katsuyu can however solo Ei.



susanoo clones do not have infinite chakra or they would all be capable of using PS . susanoo clones are clones not ET. they are actual clones and aren't immortal nor do they regen. ur argument weakens yet again



> Also Tsunade was about to summon Katsuyu against perfect Susanoo. When Madara was going to slash them she made the ram hand seal, which is the last seal for summoning jutsu.



scans of tsunade making ram seal everytime she has summoned katsuyu. quite serious....though it could be interesting. need other scans to prove she uses ram seal to summon katsuyu



> Too lazy to get scans, but Sakura was inside Katsuyu, and we even see Katsuyu pushing Sakura out of her body.



cant prove it 



> Also the Gokage were inside Katsuyu when Tsunade was healing them.




scans




> >Too slow to make a difference
> >AOE acid, invulnerability to Ei's attacks, can literally cover the entire battlefield with acid spitting clones



again acid is still too slow to make a difference. manda who is a massive snake slower than A casually side stepped it and got to katsuyu before it could react 



> 5% Katsuyu would be enough, 10% is overkill.



see above


----------



## Veracity (Feb 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> You actually didn't, and you still haven't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I actually think the first thing I said was Sasuke activated Enton in accordance to Ay's arm. The argument isnt that Sasuke reacted to Ay's arm rather that Sasuke could react to Ays arm given that Enton was activated in the time span of Ay's arm speeding to hit Sasuke. You are honestly taking things out of context here. I want to skip argument because you don't understand what I'm trying to say. If you did you would realize that location in this scenarios doesn't really matter at all. 

Crossing distances quickly is a common trait in Naruto. Exhausted Tsuande crossed an even larger distance in an extremely short time frame: [4]
And there's literally like countless examples tbh.

So FRS paced with Magamata also right? The same tech that caught off guard Onnoki and Gaara could react to right?

How fast the chakra arms are here doesn't matter. What matters is the amount of strength behind the throw. Kcm Naruto is physically Wesker than Sage Naruto, and Deva pain( in the middle of seals) was leaping clean over that tech casually. He is no speedster. That means that the Raikage, dodged a slower tech( barely) and then dodged the FRS again when Naruto threw it with Zero power. But then when Naruto actually uses the flicker, he nails Raikage casually right? Okayy

Oh yeah and let me add once again(since always seem to ignore it) that I agreed that Ay could dodge Tsuandes strikes if he wanted too. He just isnt dodging while he's attacking her. Be sure to include this in your next refutation btw.

And I'm obviously joking about that. But it's literally the same amount of evidence you guys have to assume that Ay gets an increase to arm speed via RCM.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> It actually is possible if you've read the manga. And Tsuandes never been placed in that situation. She did , however, place the majority of Konoha inside Katsuyu units to survive the damage from CST, so we know its within in her ability and mindset. This is the battledome, so yes I see Tsuande using that tactic if it keeps her alive. If everyone fought panel for panel how they did within the manga then we would have very different debates.
> 
> The acid ball wouldnt hit Ay the first try no. But considering Ay has to buildup bjuii levels of chakra for a speedy flicker( never once chained flickers together btw) he may eventually be caught of guard. Especially considering Katsuyu can split into Kurama sized units and swarm Ay from different angles.
> 
> I mean you can believe that if you want. Facts are though, Sakura was needed because both Shinobi then used Katsuyu to heal thousands of allies. Tsuande is not healing an entire army, therefore she has a lot more chakra at her disposal. Considering she can summon 5% Katsuyu when she's almost completely drained, its safe to say she can summon a lot more than 5% when she's full replenished.



Judging from this feat, i highly doubt she will be fast enough to summon Katsuyu and hide inside of her even within such a distance.


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## Veracity (Feb 22, 2016)

The 4 Kage were legit inside Katsuyu when Tsunade was healing them :[4]


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## Veracity (Feb 22, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Judging from this feat, i highly doubt she will be fast enough to summon Katsuyu and hide inside of her even within such a distance.



The distance is 200m here bruh. And then summoning Katsuyu would place Tsunade another 100 above Ay. He then has to crosd the distance and climb katsuyu to get to Tsunade.


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## Bringer (Feb 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> this implies katsuyu got the reaction to slurp him up once he runs on it. highly doubtful



She doesn't need reactions. While he runs up her 100 meter tall body, his feet will sink and be slurped up. 




> susanoo clones do not have infinite chakra or they would all be capable of using PS . susanoo clones are clones not ET. they are actual clones and aren't immortal nor do they regen. ur argument weakens yet again



Yes, but as edo's there chakra constantly regenerates. Regardless, this doesn't change my point. Katsuyu can solo Ei, but can't take out 5 edo clones with Susanoo. 





> *scans of tsunade making ram seal everytime she has summoned katsuyu*. quite serious....though it could be interesting. need other scans to prove she uses ram seal to summon katsuyu



I don't need to provide that. *You even say "quite serious" because you realize how much your reaching and how fucking stupid your request was*. Summoning jutsu is Boar → Dog → Bird → Monkey → Ram, and your denial isn't changing that. Tsunade made the ram sign as Madara's perfect Susanoo was gonna swing, unless you have another suggestion of what she was gonna do in that instance. 



> cant prove it



[4]

gggggggggggggggggggggggggggg




> scans



[4]


ggggggggggggggggggggggggggg





> again acid is still too slow to make a difference. manda who is a massive snake slower than A casually side stepped it and got to katsuyu before it could react



You act like Katsuyu only gets one shot with acid. She can shoot more than once. Ei isn't going to casually ignore a 100 meter acid spitting slug as if it's a genin throwing kunai. 



> see above



Katsuyu solo's bruh. No tears, only dreams.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> The distance is 200m here bruh. And then summoning Katsuyu would place Tsunade another 100 above Ay. He then has to crosd the distance and climb katsuyu to get to Tsunade.



She did nothing when he crossed 10-15 meters in V2. So yeah - he may kill her before she summons Katsuyu even within such a distance.


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## Veracity (Feb 22, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> She did nothing when he crossed 10-15 meters in V2. So yeah - he may kill her before she summons Katsuyu even within such a distance.



She wasn't trying too? And even if she couldn't react, she has more than 10 times the distance here lol.

Naruto could also run( not flicker) several meters as Ay amped his V2 flicker. Tsuande can summon in that time frame tbh.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> It's nonsense that Tsunade's foot beneath Madara's arms actually hit his arms, that the point of impact was against Madara's arms despite being depicted lower than his arms, and that Tsunade hitting Madara's raised arms folded him like that instead of knocking him into an L or more obtuse instead of acute angle like Mū or Madara himself later. And again being hit in his arms or stomach Madara could have flipped in order to recover either way.



Mhm. Yeah. Tsunade kicked Madara clean in the stomach and he recovered without even so much as a grunt and landed gracefully on his feet. Let me guess, you'll also argue that Tsunade's muscles were cut and she didn't have super strength. 

Why is it that Tsunade's feats are exaggerated so grossly? 



I look at that scan and go: _"Madara blocked the kick and Mū didn't, which is why Mū went flying into a cliff and Madara didn't."_

You look at that scan and go: _"Tsunade saw Madara's guard and adjusted her strike so that her foot would connect with his midsection under it, indicated by the "C" shape of his body. Madara wasn't phased because Tsunade's muscles were severed by Heavenly Transfer, which prevented her from putting any power into her strike."_

Uh huh.



FlamingRain said:


> That's often not even the case in real life, though.



Well I know that. Naruto isn't real life. It's fiction. Fictional super speed is not observable in the real world. 

[YOUTUBE]1NnyVc8r2SM[/YOUTUBE]

If Rock Lee is faster than Gaara, then he runs faster than Gaara, he strikes faster then Gaara, he ducks faster than Gaara, and he thinks faster than Gaara. That's how it works in an overwhelming majority of battle fiction. Sometimes, a character can perform a certain motion or sequence that exceeds the speed that they do everything else at, but that's only an exception. Mifune's Iaidō falls under that category.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with HxH at all, but there's a great example of this in that story. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Netero's signature ability, his 100-Type Guanyin Bodhisattva, is based on the speed at which he can clasp his arms together (as if he were praying). His opponent (Meruem) was _far_ faster than he was, but he had practiced this prayer motion so dedicatedly that it exceeded Meruem's speed. This doesn't mean that Netero's "strike speed" was above Meruem's, because Netero would have gotten murdered in a boxing match. It was the specific "prayer punch" _and only that_ that exceeded the speed at which Netero did everything else at, including normal boxing.

Here's the fight.

[YOUTUBE]Y3b6PG5Byng[/YOUTUBE]


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## Bringer (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> M
> 
> 
> 
> I look at that scan and go: _"Madara blocked the kick and Mū didn't, which is why Mū went flying into a cliff and Madara didn't."_



Care to explain while Tsunade's foot isn't even near where Madara made his guard?



> If Rock Lee is faster than Gaara, then he runs faster than Gaara, he strikes faster then Gaara, he ducks faster than Gaara, and he thinks faster than Gaara. That's how it works in an overwhelming majority of battle fiction. Sometimes, a character can perform a certain motion or sequence that exceeds the speed that they do everything else at, but that's only an exception.



Yes, but didn't Gaara put up a guard? As SoW mentioned earlier, Gaara put up his arms... For that to happen that would mean Gaara would have to able to react. Because if he couldn't, he wouldn't have been able to put his arms up.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Care to explain while Tsunade's foot isn't even near where Madara made his guard?



The scan is after Madara blocked the hit, so he was flying away at that moment? A good explanation.


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## Bringer (Feb 22, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> The scan is after Madara blocked the hit, so he was flying away at that moment? A good explanation.



But looking at Muu, Ei's fist still lines up where he struck Muu. 

Tsunade's foot lines up with Madara's lower body, not his arm guard.


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## Saru (Feb 22, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I actually think the first thing I said was Sasuke activated Enton in accordance to Ay's arm. The argument isnt that Sasuke reacted to Ay's arm rather that Sasuke could react to Ays arm given that Enton was activated in the time span of Ay's arm speeding to hit Sasuke. You are honestly taking things out of context here. I want to skip argument because you don't understand what I'm trying to say. If you did you would realize that location in this scenarios doesn't really matter at all.




You still haven't answered my question, so you must not have an answer. Sasuke's activation of Enton was _caused by_ A's Body Flicker. He didn't react to any part of A's bitchslap, and you utterly failed to prove that he was able to do so. Sasuke couldn't have reacted to A when A was _behind_ him. He reacted to the Body Flicker. I'm beginning to feel like a broken record, so I probably won't try to drive this point home any further.




> Crossing distances quickly is a common trait in Naruto. Exhausted Tsuande crossed an even larger distance in an extremely short time frame: [4]
> And there's literally like countless examples tbh.




No clue why you even brought this up.




> So FRS paced with Magamata also right? The same tech that caught off guard Onnoki and Gaara could react to right?




It actually wasn't the same, because Madara threw multiple individual tomoe, and Onoki and Gaara may have activated their defenses at different times. It's also irrelevant because Gaara and Onoki had far more time to react to Madara's attack than Sandaime did to Naruto's first FRS blindside.




> How fast the chakra arms are here doesn't matter. What matters is the amount of strength behind the throw. Kcm Naruto is physically Wesker than Sage Naruto, and Deva pain( in the middle of seals) was leaping clean over that tech casually. He is no speedster. That means that the Raikage, dodged a slower tech( barely) and then dodged the FRS again when Naruto threw it with Zero power. But then when Naruto actually uses the flicker, he nails Raikage casually right? Okayy




How fast the chakra arms are definitely does matter in a discussion about speed. The momentum of Naruto's chakra arms increases the velocity of Naruto's FRS when thrown, and as shown, KCM Naruto's chakra arms are fast. KCM Naruto is not much weaker than SM, if at all.


*Spoiler*: __ 











Any difference in strength would be minor and does not make up for the positional advantage that Naruto had over Sandaime with FRS in the aforementioned situation.




> Oh yeah and let me add once again(since always seem to ignore it) that I agreed that Ay could dodge Tsuandes strikes if he wanted too. He just isnt dodging while he's attacking her. Be sure to include this in your next refutation btw.




That's not an argument, it's an assumption with no support. There's no need for me to refute your delusions. I can just easily say that A can attack and dodge at the same time, which he can. However, unlike the argument that Tsunade can take a hit and strike a much faster enemy, I have given you evidence in the form of both feats and hype statements that support A having the speed and reflexes necessary to dodge Tsunade's slow punches (and with ease).​


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## Itachі (Feb 22, 2016)

Are people arguing about specifics here or are some people actually arguing that Tsunade wins? Enlighten me lads, I can't see Tsunade winning for the life of me.


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## Saru (Feb 22, 2016)

People are arguing that:


Madara didn't block Tsunade's kick coming out of Heavenly Transfer (Tsunade's kick was too fast for Madara to block coming out of Heavenly Transfer?)
A can't attack Tsunade and dodge at the same time, and that RCM doesn't boost his overall body speed.
FRS is faster when thrown by SM Naruto.
Sandaime Raikage's feat of dodging multiple FRS is less impressive that dodging than striking and then dodging one of Tsunade's punches.
Tsunade can summon 10% Katsuyu.
Tsunade can camp in Katsuyu while Katsuyu solos A.
MS Sasuke reacted to A's elbow with Enton at the Kage Summit with eyes in the back of his head. This somehow proves that A's striking speed is slow enough for Tsunade to take a hit and strike A.
A is vulnerable to counterattacks because his brain and body can't dodge as fast as he can strike. Or something.


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## Veracity (Feb 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> You still haven't answered my question, so you must not have an answer. Sasuke's activation of Enton was _caused by_ A's Body Flicker. He didn't react to any part of A's bitchslap, and you utterly failed to prove that he was able to do so. Sasuke couldn't have reacted to A when A was _behind_ him. He reacted to the Body Flicker. I'm beginning to feel like a broken record, so I probably won't try to drive this point home any further.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I actually have answered the question . How many times are you gonna ignore that portion of my post. And simply revert back to asking me to answer something that I've already replied too??

No its not. I've answered this a million times. Sasuke needing to activate enton was because of Ay's flicker. Yes. But he didn't even get to start the activation of said enton until Ay was swinging his Arm. Meaning he didn't actually even react to the flicker. Ay disappeared and reappeared behind Sasuke and Sasuke activated enton right before Ay's arm crashed into him. 

I'm actually the one that stated we should agree to disagree at this point as we are going in circles. You merely hopped back into the discussion to repeat the same things again.

To show that covering distance quickly I'd basically irrelevant here.Most shinobi can cover massive distances quickly.

What the fuck? Gaara and Onnoki were having a conversation when Madara simply hurled multiple beads at them. They both reacted to the attack that is just as fast as Kcm FRS. Its as simple as that. FRS isn't that speedy of an attack. Most kage level individuals can react to it.

Uhhh so KCM Naruto extended his Chakra arms carrying FRS at a much farther distance than he did againt Muu and he Raikage dodged it. Why are over hyping that? Raikage then also dodged an FRS thrown with 1% strength( wasn't even a full throw, more like a push ) and he dodged that. Which would be impressive if Deva didn't dodge a much faster FRS casually. 

KCM Naruto is physically much weaker than Sage Naruto. Don't kid yourself: [4]

That actually is a sound argument. It is much harder to punch someone and dodge while being in the middle of said action. The only reason one would be able to punch someone and then dodge the next strike, is because the opponent showed lag via disorientation and damage. Which isn't the case here because this is Tsunade. Tsuande will be able to grab Ay as he's punching her because you still have failed to show feats that prove that Ay punches faster and can completely move his body out of range instantly while punching Tsunade..


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I look at that scan and go: _"Madara blocked the kick and Mū didn't, which is why Mū went flying into a cliff and Madara didn't."_



The difference being that I look at that scan and _*see*_ that Tsunade didn't connect with his arms (i.e.- his guard), and infer _from there_ that she adjusted her kick.



> Madara wasn't phased because Tsunade's muscles were severed by Heavenly Transfer, which prevented her from putting any power into her strike.



Could have been, or, considering that he took a shot from Raikage unfazed he was simply durable enough to withstand a kick from her so long as she didn't charge it with a large amount of Chakra (if she had she would have simply torn his arms off with that kick as we saw when she hit him in the chest and the excess force was sufficient to tear apart his arm).



> Well I know that. Naruto isn't real life. It's fiction. Fictional super speed is not observable in the real world.



It's often not the case in fiction either, obviously. I pointed out how it isn't often the case in real life because there wasn't much else I'd have expected somebody to base an objection to a character possessing a striking speed that's fast relative to their movement speed on. My stance is the same both ways- it's simply more pronounced with some than it is some sort of _"exception"_ to an unspoken rule.



> I'm not sure if you're familiar with HxH at all.



No, but in _Bleach_ you have Kenpachi being rated among the slowest of any of the Captains during the Soul Society arc and yet being able to _wait for Tōsen's blade to touch him before moving and proceeding to swing back_, so it can apply in fiction as it does in real life.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Why is it that Tsunade's feats are exaggerated so grossly?



I also lol'd at this coming from the person who thinks Raikage wtfblitzes the other Kage in such a fashion that it's hard to see why he doesn't solo each of the other four at the same time.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

If he can get that close to wtfblitzing that Kage, he can wtfblitz Kage that have reflexes like three to four tiers below him.


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## Bringer (Feb 22, 2016)

Gonna make a few clarifications on your list. 



Saru said:


> People are arguing that:
> 
> Madara didn't block Tsunade's kick coming out of Heavenly Transfer (Tsunade's kick was too fast for Madara to block coming out of Heavenly Transfer?)​




Pretty sure Flamingrain's argument was that Tsunade adjusted her kick when he put the guard up, while Ei didn't do the same when he punched Madara. 




> A can't attack Tsunade and dodge at the same time, and that RCM doesn't boost his overall body speed.



Pretty sure Likeboss said that RCM boosts his shunshin and reflexes. Not his regular speed, or his striking speed. Running speed and striking speed are two different things. 





> Tsunade can summon 10% Katsuyu.



Well if she can summon 5% without even depleting her base reserves, why couldn't she summon more by using even more of his base reserves alongside her seal reserves. 



> Tsunade can camp in Katsuyu while Katsuyu solos A.



Does Katsuyu not solo A? 



> MS Sasuke reacted to A's elbow with Enton at the Kage Summit with eyes in the back of his head. This somehow proves that A's striking speed is slow enough for Tsunade to take a hit and strike A.



Pretty sure Likeboss was trying to say that Ei's striking speed isn't the same as his body flicker speed. Sasuke could react to the former but not the latter. 



> A is vulnerable to counterattacks because his brain and body can't dodge as fast as he can strike. Or something.



I think it was SoW who made this argument. Pretty sure it had something to do with tunnel vision, but I also agreed with the rebuttal of Ei's increased reflexes from his shroud negating that.​


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

So you _do_ think Ay solo's the other Kage? 


Then discussing Raikage further is a lost cause and I'm moving on.


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## Veracity (Feb 22, 2016)

Yeah from the way y'all talk about Ay. He would pretty much solo the Gokage by himself. I mean obviously he could back to back blitz Tsuande Gaara and Mei casually. And apparently I'm crazy and childish for thinking that Tsuande can react to Ay at more than 2 football fields of distance? Lol that's funny . very funny


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## Skaddix (Feb 22, 2016)

Didnt Ei have enough time to pull his arm out of Jugo's Chest and Dodge point blank lasers?


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Jūgo started charging the lasers after they had already hit the wall.


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## Veracity (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasuke also summoned Manda, put him under a genjustu and forced him to shield his body all after C0 had detonated.

Ay's feat really wasn't all that impressive.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> I pointed out how it isn't often the case in real life because there wasn't much else I'd have expected somebody to base an objection to a character possessing a striking speed that's fast relative to their movement speed on.



The reason I don't believe that _Tsunade_ has high striking speed is because _nobody_ has ever said she was fast in any way _ever._ Now couple that with her 3.5/5 Databook score, which includes reflexes. You are attempting to fabricate some new kind of speed that Tsunade excels at so you can scale her to people that are actually fast, like Sasuke and Minato. Tsunade does not move her arms to strike significantly faster than she can move her legs to run. 



FlamingRain said:


> So you do think Ay solo's the other Kage?



All four at once? Fuck no. Any of them individually? Yes, I think he's the strongest of the bunch in combat.


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## Bringer (Feb 22, 2016)

But wait Rocky. Ei can lol blitz all of them. If he can low dif Mei, low dif Tsunade, low dif Gaara, and low dif Onoki... Surely he can mid-high dif all of them at the same time.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

If we're supposed to use a Minato not privy to Raikage's speed and then worsen that for a guide as to what would happen to any of the other Kage, there is nothing stopping Raikage from simply deciding to rinse-and-repeat until they're splattered across the floor.


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## Itachі (Feb 22, 2016)

I don't think that Ei can blitz Gaara or Onoki in most cases, Mei should be able to weave a handseal or two before she gets destroyed though.


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## Veracity (Feb 22, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I don't think that Ei can blitz Gaara or Onoki in most cases, Mei should be able to weave a handseal or two before she gets destroyed though.



So literally he only can blitz Tsuande? When she's at the very least shown to have better reactions than Mei canonically?

Like do you hate Tsuande or something? I swear you do.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I don't think that Ei can blitz Gaara or Onoki in most cases, Mei should be able to weave a handseal or two before she gets destroyed though.



You must not be familiar with Rocky's perception of Raikage.


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## Saru (Feb 22, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Sasuke needing to activate enton was because of Ay's flicker. Yes. But he didn't even get to start the activation of said enton until Ay was swinging his Arm. Meaning he didn't actually even react to the flicker. Ay disappeared and reappeared behind Sasuke and Sasuke activated enton right before Ay's arm crashed into him.




Correct. Your conclusion is what's off. 




			
				Likes boss said:
			
		

> Sasuke needing to activate enton was because of Ay's flicker.




Okay, so at that point, Sasuke was thinking "Shit, I lost track of him! I better use a shield of black flames to protect myself in my blindspot." He activates the shield of black flames, and in that time A has gotten behind him to attack. _Where_ do you get a reaction feat for Sasuke in response to A's _bitchslap_ out of that? In order to react to it, Sasuke would need to _see_ the bitchslap. You yourself admit that Sasuke activated Enton because of A's Body Flicker. _That's_ what Sasuke reacted to. He was able to activate Enton before A hit him, yes, but that does not imply that A's striking speed was slow enough for Sasuke to react to the strike itself, or that A's striking speed is less than A's Body Flicker speed. Neither of those conclusions follow from that instance.




> To show that covering distance quickly I'd basically irrelevant here.Most shinobi can cover massive distances quickly.




I still have no clue why you brought this up, because distance is irrelevant to the discussion.




> What the fuck? Gaara and Onnoki were having a conversation when Madara simply hurled multiple beads at them. They both reacted to the attack that is just as fast as Kcm FRS. Its as simple as that. FRS isn't that speedy of an attack. Most kage level individuals can react to it.




No, most Kage cannot do what Sandaime Raikage did. If that's what you truly believe--that most Kage can avoid a double FRS feint from KCM Naruto as well as Sandaime Raikage did--then there's no point in us having any further discussion.




> Uhhh so KCM Naruto extended his Chakra arms carrying FRS at a much farther distance than he did againt Muu and he Raikage dodged it. Why are over hyping that? Raikage then also dodged an FRS thrown with 1% strength( wasn't even a full throw, more like a push ) and he dodged that. Which would be impressive if Deva didn't dodge a much faster FRS casually.




I'm not hyping it, Kishi is.



> KCM Naruto is physically much weaker than Sage Naruto. Don't kid yourself: Itachi's backside




That's a panel of SM Naruto assisting KCM Naruto with a strike amplified by senjutsu chakra, which has has nothing to do with strength. See those waves? Yeah, KCM Naruto can't do that, but it has nothing to do with physical strength. Furthermore, that doesn't negate the fact that KCM Naruto's chakra arms are fast and contribute greatly to the speed at which FRS travels, or that KCM Naruto's chakra arms have the strength to resist BT, knock aside boulders, and push a bijūdama through several layers of a barrier that was created by the combined efforts of the Alliance.




> That actually is a sound argument. It is much harder to punch someone and dodge while being in the middle of said action. The only reason one would be able to punch someone and then dodge the next strike, is because the opponent showed lag via disorientation and damage. Which isn't the case here because this is Tsunade. Tsuande will be able to grab Ay as he's punching her because you still have failed to show feats that prove that Ay punches faster and can completely move his body out of range instantly while punching Tsunade..




Prove that Tsunade can take a hit from A and strike back. You provided have no other evidence save for a terrible real-world analogy with you and Floyd Mayweather. She lacks the feats or the hype to take a hit and strike back.




BringerOfChaos said:


> Pretty sure Flamingrain's argument was that Tsunade adjusted her kick when he put the guard up, while Ei didn't do the same when he punched Madara.




The conclusion is still the same; Madara is too slow to react to Tsunade's movements. This is certainly not the case.




> Well if she can summon 5% without even depleting her base reserves, why couldn't she summon more by using even more of his base reserves alongside her seal reserves.




Tsunade was fully restored by Karin. If she wasn't there would be Yin Seal present. No Yin Seal, no Katsuyu.




> Does Katsuyu not solo A?




No. The Kuchiyose would run out before she got the job done.




> Pretty sure Likeboss was trying to say that Ei's striking speed isn't the same as his body flicker speed. Sasuke could react to the former but not the latter.




Sasuke didn't react to A's Body Flicker with physical movement, and that's the irony. His entire point is reliant on a misinterpreted feat which required no physical movement on Sasuke's behalf, and he's extrapolated even further to say that Tsunade would be able to _physically_ (not mentally) react to A's V2 Body Flicker and retaliate when Sasuke could not do so with Susano'o.​


----------



## Itachі (Feb 22, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> So literally he only can blitz Tsuande? When she's at the very least shown to have better reactions than Mei canonically?
> 
> Like do you hate Tsuande or something? I swear you do.



It depends on what you mean by blitz. She can definitely react mentally to it but I can't see her actually countering Ei's strike or tracking him well. Is this when Tsunade slapped away Madara's Katon? If Mei could slap away Katon I think that she'd be able to do the same, if I remember correctly Mei just couldn't finish the handseals in time to counter Madara's Katon.

No, Tsunade is one of the characters that Kishi didn't fuck over. I like her. I don't let my perceptions of a character influence how I view their battle prowess anyway, maybe you should think before you fling accusations around.


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## Itachі (Feb 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> You must not be familiar with Rocky's perception of Raikage.



I honestly don't disagree with Rocky much on Raikage. Main thing I disagree with him on is giving Ei his father's durability, apart from that I think that he's reasonable.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> If we're supposed to use a Minato not privy to Raikage's speed and then worsen that for a guide as to what would happen to any of the other Kage...



Is that what you're bothered by? Then use KCM Naruto.



Use MS Sasuke.



None of the Kage are overly familiar with A's full speed anyway, so there really isn't any reason to throw the Minato example out in the first place. Swap out Minato with Gaara. Swap out Naruto with Ōnoki. Swap out Sasuke with Mei. What do you think happens? They going to dodge him? Activate Susanoo? 

I don't think he beats all of them at once because I don't think he's Madara. One of them would get him while he's distracted or whatever. I don't know what your point is here. When speedsters are barely defending themselves from his attacks, non-speedsters probably aren't going to be able to. #commonsense


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## Icegaze (Feb 22, 2016)

> BringerOfChaos said:
> 
> 
> > She doesn't need reactions. While he runs up her 100 meter tall body, his feet will sink and be slurped up.
> ...


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> #commonsense



Would by your perception of Raikage dictate that he demolishes Ohnoki, Tsunade, Gaara, and Mei by himself. There would not even be time for a distraction and out of the four only two could hit him with something that'd kill or injure him anyway.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> The conclusion is still the same; Madara is too slow to react to Tsunade's movements​



That's not the conclusion that would come from that, no.

By the way I found that scene I brought up in another thread where Karin was talking about the Chakra of the other Kage _(1)_.


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## Itachі (Feb 22, 2016)

I fucking love Tsunade threads, they always go on for so long.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Tsunade is a polarizing character in many ways.


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## Veracity (Feb 22, 2016)

@Saru
Except that's not what happened. Sasuke didn't activate enton until after Ay was already behind him and already swinging. So that kinda changes the rest of your post too. Look at the order of panels in the scene.

You used FRS crossing the CST crater as a speed feat. 

Most Kage can react to an FRS chakra attack from that distance yeah I'll agree to that. The Raikage was impressive for hopping over the next FRS, but its less impressive given the amount of power created from the relatively weak push and the fact that Deva can do similar feats. 

Sigh sigh sigh. Naruto entering Sage mode doesn't make him physically strong in the sense you thought I meant. Everything he does is amplified by Natural energy, giving him( in a sense) enhanced physical strength. Its why he can toss boss summonings into the clouds and toss the fucking Kyuubi. All shit Kcm Naruto could never accomplish. Sage Naruto is his physical superior.

Kcm Naruto was trying to pull those stakes out and couldn't at all. Sage Naruto with one palm thrust could generate enough force to send KCM Naruto flying back through the buffer of Bjuii skin/flesh. There is a significant strength difference there. Having chakra arms does not make up for that at all. Not even close. 

Tsunade can move at full speed with her intercoastal lungs severed. Move at full speed with a bisected mid-section. Continue fighting with her spinal cord snapped and severed organs. The amount of blunt damage she's gonna take from Ay's blow is less than the damage taken from all of those and she continues to fight.


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## Icegaze (Feb 22, 2016)

she is and I don't even get why

kishi utterly failed to explore her whole I cant die in battle

because tbh if he did show she could survive decapitation for example or regrow limbs 

all but 1 poster would say tsunade wins...because the ability to basically ignore what could be lethal and proceed like nothing happened 

would essentially give her izanagi like powers of sorts, danzo being slower than sasuke was able to land mutually lethal strikes because he didn't have to dodge or block

if tsunade didn't have to I say she would win


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## Itachі (Feb 22, 2016)

Tsunade vs Danzo - 2016

never 4get


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## Itachі (Feb 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> she is and I don't even get why
> 
> kishi utterly failed to explore her whole I cant die in battle
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter much anyway, if Tsunade's head is gone even for a few seconds that gives her opponent time to capitalise on her vulnerability.


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## Veracity (Feb 22, 2016)

When did I ever once say that Tsunade could physically react to V2 Ay's flicker? Saru you literally just made that up on the spot.


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## Saru (Feb 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> That's not the conclusion that would come from that, no.




How do you figure? She certainly wouldn't have been able to get a leg up Madara due to superior skill; adjusting your leg is not a particularly advanced form of movement. If anything else, Madara was simply blinded by the light of Heavenly Transfer, in which case that feat should be thrown out of the window altogether because the conditions that made it possible can't be repeated.




> By the way I found that scene I brought up in another thread where Karin was talking about the Chakra of the other Kage _(1)_.




_Oh_. I thought you were referring to the Edo Tensei Hokage.




Itachі said:


> I fucking love Tsunade threads, they always go on for so long.




​


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## Bringer (Feb 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> need reactions to react to outside stimulus



Yes, Ei scales the 100 meter body and Katsuyu doesn't even realize. 10/10 logic. 




> clones are clones. their chakra don't regen.



Edo Tensei have infinite chakra because their chakra automatically regenerates.

Why wouldn't clones of reanimation have their chakra regenerate. Go on, the spotlight is on you. I want to hear this. 



> try harder



Being pretentious isn't helping you here. 




> katsuyu cant solo A nor can she solo susanoo. she couldn't hit a giant target with acid



Please tell me how Ei defeats Katsuyu. 







> hanzo did not perform those seals when performing summon for ibuse, nor did animal path



Doesn't matter, those are the official hand seals of summoning technique. You couldn't even answer my question when I asked what else could Tsunade have possibly been doing. That's right, you can't think of one because you know you'd be reaching. Tsunade was summoning Katsuyu, everything points to that.



> yes its on her. doesn't means she was camping inside it as if it was suanoo armor



...In one panel Sakura is nowhere to be seen, and in the next she is slowly coming out of Katsuyu.




> see above



 so you're saying the Gokage were under the Katsuyu clones being crushed? This is sad, even for you. 






> an attack to slow to hit A once, isn't going to change if the same attack is used again. it doesn't suddenly get faster. in terms of speed that acid spit and a genin throwing kunai aren't much different to A



Okay, so Katsuyu turns into hundreds of thousand body sized clones and covers the battlefied and spits acid in every direction. Wat do, Ei. 



> poor kid life must be hard with this level of denial



How does Ei defeat Katsuyu, I'm waiting.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Would by your perception of Raikage dictate that he demolishes Ohnoki, Tsunade, Gaara, and Mei by himself. There would not even be time for a distraction and out of the four only two could hit him with something that'd kill or injure him anyway.



I'm not the one arguing that he takes out all four. They'd presumably find a way to win, lol. I cannot see him killing the other four Kage. I can see him killing any of them individually, though, like he would have done to Sasuke without Susanoo, or Minato without Hiraishin, unless you think they could have dodged him, or you think Ōnoki's reflexes are better than Sasuke's.


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## Icegaze (Feb 22, 2016)

@troll bringer 

 

because the clones aren't ET. quite obviously otherwise why the fuck didn't madara 25 susanoo clones regen? they weren't sealed..why didn't they come back? they were defeated as all clones can be and failed to come back because they aren't ET. ET must have their soul ripped out or their body sealed

jinton cant be used to defeat an ET permanently 

common knowledge this but of course when wanking tsunade one must grasp at straws

odd how katsuyu spilitting into this 100's of mini clones didn't seem to be a tactic used against susanoo clones. despite If it were possible, it would have been far more useful than tsunade attacking it when she couldn't even put a little crack in V3. one would think acid would weaken V3 clones to allow her to breach 

odd she didn't consider it

again though. feel free to wank...and make claims based on nothing the scans seem to have shown


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## Itachі (Feb 22, 2016)

To be fair, Minato/Sasuke can engage in those sorts of situations because they can fall back on their respective techniques. Characters like Gaara & Onoki are ranged players.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

You only presume they would fly away because Raikage is dangerous, not because they actually tend to fly out of their opponent's range. By the same token, A would just stop them from escaping...by running up to them and punching them in the face at speeds they cannot react to.


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## Saru (Feb 22, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> @Saru
> Except that's not what happened. Sasuke didn't activate enton until after Ay was already behind him and already swinging. So that kinda changes the rest of your post too. Look at the order of panels in the scene.




The order doesn't change _anything_. Sasuke did not react to A's bitchslap.




See how his head is turned? His head is _still_ turned when he activates Enton. The order doesn't change anything that I just said.




> You used FRS crossing the CST crater in *one second* as a speed feat.




Fixed.




> Most Kage can react to an FRS chakra attack from that distance yeah I'll agree to that. The Raikage was impressive for hopping over the next FRS, but its less impressive given the amount of power created from the relatively weak push and the fact that Deva can do similar feats.




So *most Kage* can do what A did in that situation despite the fact that Raikage's speed was explicitly highlighted as a contributing factor? Okay.




> Sigh sigh sigh. Naruto entering Sage mode doesn't make him physically strong in the sense you thought I meant. Everything he does is amplified by Natural energy, giving him( in a sense) enhanced physical strength. Its why he can toss boss summonings into the clouds and toss the fucking Kyuubi. All shit Kcm Naruto could never accomplish. Sage Naruto is his physical superior.




I know exactly what you were trying to say, and I disagree with it for the reasons previously stated.




> Kcm Naruto was trying to pull those stakes out and couldn't at all. Sage Naruto with one palm thrust could generate enough force to send KCM Naruto flying back through the buffer of Bjuii skin/flesh. There is a significant strength difference there. Having chakra arms does not make up for that at all. Not even close.




Once again, that was not purely a strength feat, it was a feat accomplished with Frog Kata. You can _see_ the waves of natural energy being generated. That has nothing to do with SM Naruto's ability to throw.




> Tsunade can move at full speed with her intercoastal lungs severed. Move at full speed with a bisected mid-section. Continue fighting with her spinal cord snapped and severed organs. The amount of blunt damage she's gonna take from Ay's blow is less than the damage taken from all of those and she continues to fight.




And A can throw his fist at Minato and still have time to look around, decide where to move to next, and go to that location all in a shorter amount of time than it will take for Tsunade to hit him.




			
				Likes boss said:
			
		

> When did I ever once say that Tsunade could physically react to V2 Ay's flicker? Saru you literally just made that up on the spot.




That's essentially what you're arguing from my perspective, because I don't adhere to this notion that A has to slow down to strike someone when using his Body Flicker. A's V2 Body Flicker _is_ the speed at which he will punch Tsunade, and she won't be able to do a thing about it.
​


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## Itachі (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> You only presume they would fly away because Raikage is dangerous, not because they actually tend to fly out of their opponent's range. By the same token, A would just stop them from escaping...by running up to them and punching them in the face at speeds they cannot react to.



I don't think that Raikage can blitz them before they go airborne unless the starting distance is very close. Besides, they can still protect themselves; Onoki can manipulate the terrain, Gaara can throw up a sand shield, etc. I also never said that they would fly away, they can still fight effectively from the ground, although taking to the skies is a better option.


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## Bringer (Feb 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @troll bringer
> 
> 
> 
> because the clones aren't ET. quite obviously otherwise why the fuck didn't madara 25 susanoo clones regen? they weren't sealed..why didn't they come back? they were defeated as all clones can be and failed to come back because they aren't ET. ET must have their soul ripped out or their body sealed



Okay, so you're telling me Madara made 25 wood clones from his reserves. 100/25 would be 4. So each clone had 4% of his chakra...

Then those clones went on to use V3 Susanoo for hours, and repair any damage their Susanoo sustained throughout the fight. 4% of Madara's chakra can do that? The clones chakra weren't being replenished at all? 

(1)

Tell me, icegaze? What is Madara's wood clone doing here? Why are the ashes returning to the body as if it's regenerating? 



> jinton cant be used to defeat an ET permanently



Agreed, but that doesn't mean wood clones don't get ET benefits if they are clones of an ET. Wood clones can take hits without being dispersed, so if a wood clone isn't dispersed then it regenerates, but if it is dispersed then it can't regenerate. 



> common knowledge this but of course when wanking tsunade one must grasp at straws



You are one of the worst people I have ever debated. I hope you're honored. 



> odd how katsuyu spilitting into this 100's of mini clones didn't seem to be a tactic used against susanoo clones. despite If it were possible, it would have been far more useful than tsunade attacking it when she couldn't even put a little crack in V3. one would think acid would weaken V3 clones to allow her to breach
> 
> odd she didn't consider it



So what are you saying? Katsuyu can't split? Smaller Katsuyu's can't spit acid? What is the argument that you are trying to make here. 

Gaara fought Madara in the desert, why didn't he just sink Madara's Susanoo clones like he sinked Kimmimaru? 

Saying "why didn't a character do this" is a retarded argument. Don't be retarded.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I don't think that Raikage can blitz them before they go airborne unless the starting distance is very close. Besides, they can still protect themselves; Onoki can manipulate the terrain, Gaara can throw up a sand shield, etc. I also never said that they would fly away, they can still fight effectively from the ground, although taking to the skies is a better option.



It's not just getting into the air. It's getting completely out of Raikage's range despite him possessing an absolutely monstrous advantage in speed. He'll pop up in their face and spike them back down to the ground like he did KCM Naruto. 

Fighting him there on the ground isn't an option either because they don't have the reflexes to actually defend themselves from the Raikage's attacks. Do you not remember what happened to Sasuke? Do you know how much faster Sasuke is than people like Ōnoki or Gaara?


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## Saru (Feb 22, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> (1)
> 
> What is Madara's wood clone doing here? Why are the ashes returning to the body as if it's regenerating?




That does not look like regeneration to me. It looks like bits of Edo flesh are still flying around from Tsunade's punch. Minato's Bunshin didn't appear to regenerate after being destroyed.



Rocky said:


> It's not just getting into the air. It's getting completely out of Raikage's range despite him possessing an absolutely monstrous advantage in speed. He'll pop up in their face and spike them back down to the ground like he did KCM Naruto.
> 
> Fighting him there on the ground isn't an option either because they don't have the reflexes to actually defend themselves from the Raikage's attacks. Do you not remember what happened to Sasuke? Do you know how much faster Sasuke is than people like Ōnoki or Gaara?




That's if they give him the chance. Onoki is fast enough with weight adjustment to get into the air before V1 A gets to him, and V2 requires a small enough charge time for Onoki to get a good head start. Same with Gaara considering how fast his Nimbus was able to travel when carrying Naruto and the other Kage. At that point, it becomes a battle of long-range vs. short-range tactics, deception (e.g. Bunshin), and attrition.

Mei and Tsunade are kind of screwed though.​


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## Bringer (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> *I'm not the one arguing that he takes out all four. They'd presumably find a way to win, lol.* I cannot see him killing the other four Kage. I can see him killing any of them individually, though, like he would have done to Sasuke without Susanoo, or Minato without Hiraishin, unless you think they could have dodged him, or you think Ōnoki's reflexes are better than Sasuke's.



But you think he can effortlessly decapitate Tsunade

But you think he can effortlessly kill Mei before she can use any jutsu. I've once asked you if you think Ei can LOW dif the Mizukage, and you said yes. 

So yeah, he apparently kills both low dif right away. Then it becomes Ei vs Gaara and Onoki. Onoki's slow jinton ain't touching SUPER LOLBLITZ RAIKAGE, and EI rapes Gaara.

Your Raikage solo's the 4 kage, and I feel like the only reason you're saying otherwise is to not discredit yourself. How can they even find a way to win when you think all/most of them can't even react to him.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I'm not the one arguing that he takes out all four. They'd presumably find a way to win, lol.



You don't need to argue it because if you actually have an accurate perception of Raikage he'd blitz-smash all of them back-to-back faster than they could do a thing about it.


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## Itachі (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> It's not just getting into the air. It's getting completely out of Raikage's range despite him possessing an absolutely monstrous advantage in speed. He'll pop up in their face and spike them back down to the ground like he did KCM Naruto.
> 
> Fighting him there on the ground isn't an option either because they don't have the reflexes to actually defend themselves from the Raikage's attacks. Do you not remember what happened to Sasuke? Do you know how much faster Sasuke is than people like Ōnoki or Gaara?



Thing is that Gaara has sand to defend himself which is pretty solid, he doesn't really have to waste Chakra or continually spew out Ninjutsu. Gaara could also literally encase himself in sand and use his third eye to just take out Ei, similar to how he tried to deal with Deidara's bombs. Gaara's sand isn't slow either, he was able to defend himself against a point blank bomb from Deidara while he was tired from the previous trifle.



Onoki has a chance because he's more versatile than Ei, he could feint him with Bunshin and confuse Ei further by manipulating the terrain around him. I don't confidently think that Onoki could win but he's not getting blitzed right off the bat. Onoki & Gaara are also Ei's intellectual superiors.


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## Itachі (Feb 22, 2016)

Well, even if Ei could blitz all of the Gokage individually with low diff it doesn't mean that he'd do the same if he was up against them at the same time. Tsunade could watch Mei & Onoki get their faces smashed in and she and Gaara could launch a counter attack or blindside him.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> That does not look like regeneration to me. It looks like bits of Edo flesh are still flying around from Tsunade's punch. Minato's Bunshin didn't appear to regenerate after being destroyed.



If you look at the page prior and then that page you'd see that there's more of Madara's torso there when Gaara uses his sand than there was a moment ago when Tsunade struck him, indicating regeneration.


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## Bringer (Feb 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> That does not look like regeneration to me. It looks like bits of Edo flesh are still flying around from Tsunade's punch. Minato's Bunshin didn't appear to regenerate after being destroyed.



It looks like the edo flesh is flying towards him. She blew an entire hole in his chest, and the hole isn't even visible in the next page.

Shadow clones poof after being hit once. Wood clones according to the databook can still function after being hit, and once they take too much damage they revert to wood. So as long as the wood clones don't revert to wood I don't see why they wouldn't regenerate as edo clones.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Well, even if Ei could blitz all of the Gokage individually with low diff it doesn't mean that he'd do the same if he was up against them at the same time. Tsunade could watch Mei & Onoki get their faces smashed in and she and Gaara could launch a counter attack or blindside him.



If Raikage could pop up in the face of each Kage immediately the way Rocky says he'd get through all four before they had time to.


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## Saru (Feb 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> If you look at the page prior and then that page you'd see that there's more of Madara's torso there when Gaara uses his sand than there was a moment ago when Tsunade struck him, indicating regeneration.




Not really... Look at Madara's arm and where it is when Tsunade's punch goes through him. That part of his shoulder and a little less than half of the left side of his battle armor is still there before and after the sealing. I don't see any evidence of regeneration.



BringerOfChaos said:


> It looks like the edo flesh is flying towards him. She blew an entire hole in his chest, and the hole isn't even visible in the next page.




The damage is still there though. ​


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

The chest plate spans from one side of "Madara's" face to the other when Gaara's about to seal him- when Tsunade first hit him there was only a tiny piece of it left at the top. It was coming back.


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## Veracity (Feb 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> The order doesn't change _anything_. Sasuke did not react to A's bitchslap.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why would Sasuke need to turn his head if He has full body armor and enton lol? Why would have needed to see the Raikage behind him before activating the flames? His prime goal at that point was to make sure he didn't die. Turning his head to look at Raikage would have been useless before activating the flames. He did however look Raikage in the face before Ay swung. 

You remember how fast Sage Naruto climbed the God Tree? Which is literally countries in length. 

The First dodge yeah. And Deva can probably evade the second portion.☻ Naruto is a pretty humble guy ya know.

Do you fail go understand that everything Sage Naruto does is a product of Natural Energy? He uses natural energy to lift objects and increase his strikingt strength. Why would it not incrrase his throwing ability? He sure as hell threw that Rhino into the clouds.

Can you provide those panels?

Tsuande doesn't actually react to Ay's initial blow. She just reacts after already being hit


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## Itachі (Feb 22, 2016)

Look at his face bro.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I've once asked you if you think Ei can LOW dif the Mizukage, and you said yes.





What diff is that? Because that is the diff Raikage has with ninja like Mei or Ōnoki.



FlamingRain said:


> You don't need to argue it because if you actually have an accurate perception of Raikage he'd blitz-smash all of them back-to-back faster than they could do a thing about it.



My perception of the Raikage is that he can blitz-smash one of them before that one he blitzes can do anything about it, and I believe that because all of the Raikage's opponents have needed every ounce of speed they possessed to not get blitz-smashed. 



Itachі said:


> Thing is that Gaara has sand to defend himself which is pretty solid, he doesn't really have to waste Chakra or continually spew out Ninjutsu. [...] Onoki has a chance because he's more versatile than Ei, he could feint him with Bunshin and confuse Ei further by manipulating the terrain around him.



Gaara automatic sand defense does not work on super speed. If he were to encase himself in a sphere of sand before Raikage got to him somehow, Raikage would tear through the sand and strangle Gaara. 

Raikage wouldn't give Ōnoki time to breathe, let alone play around with the ground he wants to run on. Even if the Tsuchikage did throw out a golem, A would go around it and swing at the back of Ōnoki's neck before he could do anything else. Ya know, like this:


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## Saru (Feb 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> The chest plate spans from one side of "Madara's" face to the other when Gaara's about to seal him- when Tsunade first hit him there was only a tiny piece of it left at the top. It was coming back.




I think it's far more likely that there's just a small variation from panel to panel. All of Madara's shoulder area looks the exact same (no signs of regeneration), and Madara's body is also at a different angle in the two panels. I wouldn't call that substantial. Kishimoto's not a perfect artist.​


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## Bringer (Feb 22, 2016)

He clear has regenerated more of his stomach as he's being sealed.


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## Skaddix (Feb 22, 2016)

She has a 3.5 in speed for fraksake she is not that fast...granted her style means she doesnt need to be all that fast and while I agree the database ranks are fairly useless most of the time when a character has the same damn score, I do think they have some relevance when they are not especially a 1.5 point gap. There i  zilch to suggest Tsunade can react at all and so what lets say she puts up a guard didnt save Judo who has superior durability from getting a fist all the way through his body. Unless ur saying Tsunade is going to dodge which is frakking absurd since Sasuke with MS cant keep up and Minato had to use space time at the last frakking second.


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## Bringer (Feb 22, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Look at his face bro.



She didn't even hit his face. Edo's always have some sort of cracks on their face.


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## Skaddix (Feb 22, 2016)

Edos always have cracks period.


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## Itachі (Feb 22, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> She didn't even hit his face. Edo's always have some sort of cracks on their face.



I meant that as in 'look at his face in comparison to the rest of his body', :sweat he had barely anything beneath his face when Tsunade punched him.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

My argument about Gaara was that someone with a 1 in speed vs someone with a 4 in speed supercharged on 5 gates of speed should be such a gap that he can't move his arms in the time it takes Lee to do anything.  He shouldn't even be able to perceive Lee, much as you're saying Tsunade can't move her arms or perceive Ei or Naruto.  Rocky even argued that Gaara couldn't do anything about the first kick because it was too fast to register.  Lee vs Gaara is probably the largest tier gap we've seen in speed and reflexes ever in the manga, and yet he was able to see attacks, not only was he able to move his arms in the flinch response of someone with a 1 in taijutsu, he was able to cast ninjutsu in the middle of being kicked to the ceiling.  

The gap between Ei and Tsunade is not as large as Lee and Gaara.  My point about counter-attacks is that they exist and they happened to Ei, regardless of any slow-mo vision you grant him.  If I disliked Ei this is where I'd go on to say something like:  So it stands to reason whatever he has is worse than 3 tomoe, and possibly even worse than the slow-mo or 2 tomoe which completed Kakashi's jutsu and made it usable for Sasuke.  Thought that would still be more than sufficient for him given his athleticism combined with his super durable body.  I don't really care though.  I just know his character and what he does and how he fights and how he's portrayed, and it's not in Rocky's way.


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## Dr. White (Feb 22, 2016)

Can I hear a summation of both sides?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

> She has a 3.5



Databook stats are obsolete because Kishi threw them out.  He deemed them such a non-viable way to think about characters that he even threw them out for in-house reference purposes.  Continuing to use them for characters not time-locked before the third databook would be a path better left unchosen.


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## Skaddix (Feb 22, 2016)

Yes but Gaara has autosheilding and just has to think to do his moves. Gaara doesnt require handseals so if he wants to armor himself up with sand he just needs to think armor now while Lee is bouncing around and punching.. If Tsunade wants to activate anything of note she needs some hand moves unless we are talking about her punching in which case carry on. 

But lets say Tsunade does put up her arms to block again it wont matter...thanks to penetrating power of Raiton...Raikage will just go right through her arms then her chest and then out her back ala Jugo...with her arms crippled she aint punching giving Ei more then enough time to extricate his arm and chop off her head. I dont think her regen would kick in until the arm is out.

Awfully convenient argument on databook fine there is not one shred of evidence of hype, comments, etc in the whole damn manga that Tsunade is fast. Strong sure, resilient sure but fast no.


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## Saru (Feb 22, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Why would Sasuke need to turn his head if He has full body armor and enton lol? Why would have needed to see the Raikage behind him before activating the flames? His prime goal at that point was to make sure he didn't die. Turning his head to look at Raikage would have been useless before activating the flames. He did however look Raikage in the face before Ay swung.




That's exactly my point. 

Therefore, Sasuke didn't react to A's arm, and you can't conclude that A's striking speed was slower than his Body Flicker from those panels.




> You remember how fast Sage Naruto climbed the God Tree?




No, actually, but KCM Naruto with his Hiraishin-level Body Flicker could've done it faster, so it's pointless to bring it up.




> The First dodge yeah. And Deva can probably evade the second portion.☻ Naruto is a pretty humble guy ya know.




Deva is not Raikage. Tsunade is not Raikage. Tsunade is not Deva.




> Do you fail go understand that everything Sage Naruto does is a product of Natural Energy? He uses natural energy to lift objects and increase his strikingt strength. Why would it not incrrase his throwing ability? He sure as hell threw that Rhino into the clouds.




That's besides the point, which is that Naruto was sending waves of natural energy out in the panel you posted. That's not a pure strength feat. End of.




> Can you provide those panels?




Below.



> Tsuande doesn't actually react to Ay's initial blow. She just reacts after already being hit




And A does nothing? By the time she reacts, A will have moved elsewhere... Once again, A was able to throw his fist at Minato, react to Minato's warp, then look around to see where Minato would pop up next. He can still move during that time period, obviously. 

A's ability to react with RCM >>>>>>>>> Tsunade's ability to react to a physical stimulus and move her fist before A can react and move his body. Prove that train of logic wrong.
​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Can I hear a summation of both sides?



The Raikage argument is the same as always.  He run too fast and cuts off heads.

Arguments against are countered by the Raikage side saying he runs too fast for that to work and cuts off heads.  It will be as fast and head choppy as it needs to be to invalidate your argument.

Did I miss anything?


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> The gap between Ei and Tsunade is not as large as Lee and Gaara.



Uh, yeah, it is. The gap between Lee and Gaara hasn't randomly changed in favor of Gaara. War Gaara vs. War Lee with the 5th Gate open would produce similar results. Tsunade (3.5) is faster than Gaara (3.0), but A is faster than Lee. If we're generous to Tsunade, there's a comparable gap, but I'd bet on WFM Raikage being more than half a tier faster than 5th Gate Lee.  



Sadness on Wheels said:


> My point about counter-attacks is that they exist and they happened to Ei, regardless of any slow-mo vision you grant him.



I'm not granting him anything that he hasn't demonstrated on-panel. If he's attempted a strategy that would be impossible with tunnel vision, he doesn't have tunnel vision. _The counter-attacks that happened to him were not a result of tunnel vision,_ and they aren't feats that Tsunade can replicate just because people want her to be fast.


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## Bringer (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> What diff is that? Because that is the diff Raikage has with ninja like Mei or Ōnoki.



Kisame was caught off guard, the same way Minato was caught off guard when Ei almost punched him. 



> My perception of the Raikage is that he can blitz-smash one of them before that one he blitzes can do anything about it, and I believe that because all of the Raikage's opponents have needed every ounce of speed they possessed to not get blitz-smashed.



So you're saying in the first 10 seconds Ei blitzes and kills one of them low dif. So he immediately makes 1 on 4 into 1 on 3. Let's say he takes out Tsunade first cuz medic. So Ei decapitates Tsunade low dif cuz she fodder.

What would the Gokage do then? You make the Gokage sound like genin compared to Ei, so four genin vs one kage isn't changing much. Ei would then lolblitz Mei. Gaara and Onoki would then never be able to touch godly V2 Ei. 



Itachі said:


> I meant that as in 'look at his face in comparison to the rest of his body', :sweat he had barely anything beneath his face when Tsunade punched him.



Well to be quite honest I don't really know what to take from that. 

All I do know is that 1. Wood clones revert to wood when receiving too much damage. 2. It looked like the edo flesh was flying towards him. 3. He had more of his stomach while being sealed.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Databook stats are obsolete because Kishi threw them out.  He deemed them such a non-viable way to think about characters that he even threw them out for in-house reference purposes.  Continuing to use them for characters not time-locked before the third databook would be a path better left unchosen.



It's the only data we have on Tsunade's speed. Since I have no reason to believe that she got any faster while she was in her coma, I'll just assume she's still roughly comparable to people on that tier.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> The reason I don't believe that _Tsunade_ has high striking speed is because _nobody_ has ever said she was fast in any way _ever._ Now couple that with her 3.5/5 Databook score, which includes reflexes.



I mean if it's just being called fast the databook said Sakura evaded attacks from Sasori's puppets with _"astonishing agility"_ right after bringing up how Tsunade put her through special training, so that could be one thing. But it doesn't follow from nobody explicitly saying it that it isn't the case. They don't have to spell it out for you in order for it to be true.

The databook statistic symbolizes both reflex _and_ quickness of movement, which would mean it can be more representative of one than the other in some cases (i.e.- it's possible Tsunade could have quick reactions and yet score a 3.5 based on her movement speed). That was made abundantly clear when statistically-slower-than-Chūnin-Exams-Kiba tier 3 Sarutobi managed to overwhelm and catch tier 4.5 Orochimaru who quite obviously did not want to be caught going by his facial expressions and the fact that he'd watched Hiruzen rip Hashirama and Tobirama out of Edo Tensei, 30% of tier 4 Kisame could still register tier 5 enhanced by 6 gates Gai's flaming from the amount of friction kick coming at his face before it hit him, tier 4 Chiyo could match tier 4.5 Sasori when they clashed puppets and soon react and defend herself as well as Sakura from projectiles that broke the sound barrier from barely over a dozen meters out, and also-statistically-slower-than-Chūnin-Exam-Kiba tier 3 Gaara react in order to block multiple Enton projections from himself and his siblings. There are probably other examples.

More relevantly it was made apparent when _rusty_ Tsunade squatted and crapped on Shizune's 4 when they were across the bed from each other, mandated that tier 3.5 Kabuto with a Jutsu capable of negating her herculean power in a mere tap wait until her breath was coming fast before popping a Hyōrōgan to engage her _despite already being fast enough to simply run away at the beginning_, popped tier 4.5 Orochimaru standing near her right in the face without the snake managing to do a thing about it despite staring at her intently enough to notice her stop trembling and then jerked him up to the top of Gamabunta's tantō and popped him in the face again before he could do a thing about it like suddenly spat the Kusanagi at her. What does that suggest? Right, that she speed at which she could execute strikes was high in comparison to her movement speed. Tsunade improved sizably over the timeskip seeing as Orochimaru wasn't huffing and puffing like Kabuto and Tsunade after that chase across the prairie and yet she scored in the stamina tier beyond both his and Kabuto's (4 vs 3.5 and 3), probably _by_ re-polishing her Taijutsu given the 5 which not even the Hyūga clan leader scored when first introduced. You can put money on her striking execution speed being up there even if she isn't the one of the more generally speedy ninja and then see it for yourself when she kicked Madara upon emerging from Tensō no Jutsu right in front of him or when she kicked Susano'o again before it was blasted away by the force of Raikage's enhanced Raigyaku Suihei (which was sufficient to crack it). Those two instances would make sense out of why Raikage would bring her along to stop the Jinchūriki despite Tsunade not being able to run nearly as fast as any of them, still expected her to get in there to help, and why Tsunade herself intended to get involved as well.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Kisame was caught off guard, the same way Minato was caught off guard when Ei almost punched him.



Kisame wasn't "off guard." Gai had just blown Kisame's lake apart with pure aura. Kisame was plenty on guard, but nice try.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Kisame didn't know how fast Gai could move in that gate is what he meant.


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## Skaddix (Feb 22, 2016)

Not sure how her 5 in Taijutsu is relevant you cant cherry pick the databook for Stats that support your position and then disregard all the stats that dont.

Which Gai v Kisame fight? Kisame was on guard he just got screwed because lol it aint chakra....unless we are talking about his clone which were stated as inferior.


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## Dr. White (Feb 22, 2016)

ei can perceive things when he is using Shushin in V2, it's suffice to say he can lean his hand out and decapitate someone Lariat style only with Raiton Edge. 

I also don't recall Tsunade ever having any slick close range dodging feats showing her short burst agility similar to someone like say Diedara and even he would have got blitzed by Sasuke had the latter not slowed down his shushin to first "strike" Tobi. 

I think Tsunade's best shot at winning is breaking up the ground to destroy level ground so Ei can't blitz linearly. Either that or tank something in Byakugo, and counter attack to the head. I don't think Ei will immediately go for the headshot, I think it will take a couple hits. Hits which give Tsunade some time to counter. Her chances also go up if Katsuyu is swarming around split up.

I'm kinda stuck, anyone wanna give me a specific rundown of their arguments?


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## Bringer (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Kisame wasn't "off guard." Gai had just blown Kisame's lake apart with pure aura. Kisame was plenty on guard, but nice try.



Post manga scans instead of anime gif.

Kakashi

Kakashi

He had never faced gated Gai.
He had no idea how fast gated Gai was.
For all he know he probably didn't even know what Gai was using. 
Why would he think "So fast" if he already knew he was fast. You don't think things you already know.

edit: What Flamingrain said, basically.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 22, 2016)

Skaddix said:


> Not sure how her 5 in Taijutsu is relevant you cant cherry pick the databook for Stats that support your position and then disregard all the stats that dont.



If you're talking to me re-read that sentence. I brought it up to supplement Tsunade shaping up again once she came out of retirement.

I didn't cherry-pick anything.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

Skaddix said:


> Yes but Gaara has autosheilding and just has to think to do his moves. Gaara doesnt require handseals so if he wants to armor himself up with sand he just needs to think armor now while Lee is bouncing around and punching.. If Tsunade wants to activate anything of note she needs some hand moves unless we are talking about her punching in which case carry on.
> 
> But lets say Tsunade does put up her arms to block again it wont matter...thanks to penetrating power of Raiton...Raikage will just go right through her arms then her chest and then out her back ala Jugo...with her arms crippled she aint punching giving Ei more then enough time to extricate his arm and chop off her head. I dont think her regen would kick in until the arm is out.
> 
> Awfully convenient argument on databook fine there is not one shred of evidence of hype, comments, etc in the whole damn manga that Tsunade is fast. Strong sure, resilient sure but fast no.



Link removed

This isn't autosand.  This is him, seeing Lee rush towards him with unweighted 5 gate speed.  

That is Gaara, seeing and understanding it, and raising his arms from neutral position to in front of his body before Lee completes his ultimate all out full speed final blow.  Gaara could not guard, but Gaara doesn't have super strength and world famous taijutsu abilities.  

...Juugo didn't get punched straight through, and Tsunade has attacked with giant swords stabbing through her.  I don't think Ei's chop is superior to Susano.  It definitely didn't chop through Madara's Susano lesser stage armor.  I don't rate Ei's sheer strength as superior to Susano either, as Susano picked him picked him up and he was unable to free himself from it's grip.  I don't think Juugo is superior in durability to Tsunade.  If Madara shot magatama in Chibi Juugo's face, I think he'd be dead or close to it.  I think Juugo would get chopped in half by kusunagi, just as the other CS 2 monster was diced into quarters by Sasuke's oft lower rated sword.  How do you rate him?  

The databook was something I said the moment Kishi threw out stats.  I still used them because people were invested in them and it's easy.  I believed it was wrong, but it's easy.  Since I no longer care about being persuasive or diplomat I'm free to go off on what I believe with no consideration for others or the situation.  I have won no awards since.

Tsunade has never once had her speed indicated or mentioned as a weakness of hindrance.  Not one statement or situation or mention from anyone ever.  The only statement ever made towards he speed was, "She's not as fast as Raikage, but.... she's much more powerful."  Indicating that at least to Madara, or perhaps the author, that  this was an acceptable trade off even in the kage class of fighting.  I feel that to be true.


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## Skaddix (Feb 22, 2016)

I am talking about Gaara's sand armor merely requiring thought sure he tries moving his arms but Lee still gets there before he can mount any real defense. He sees Lee activate and then reflexing his arms up...its not really reacting to Lee if he could he put his arms in front of Lee's Fist instead of getting crushed in the chest. 

I rate Jugo as superior in durability to Tsunade who while she can regenerate has never been especially durable. Resilient sure...durable no. 

My point is more even if Tsunade gets her arms up to block it wont matter because Raikage is still going to penetrate right on through Tsunade's arms and into her body and if her arms are crippled she is not punching Raikage until they finish healing. 

Furthermore I dont see Tsunade landing anything because she has nothing faster then Amaterasu which just requires Sasuke to look at a damn target.

As for strength u need leverage ie if u tie up a strong person with rope then despite their strength they will still have trouble breaking the binding via flexing. Same reason you can hold a crocs mouth shut with some duck tape put good luck trying to open their jaw.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> You can put money on her striking execution speed being up there



It isn't "up there" if it isn't too much for anyone relevant to handle. "Up there" is reserved for people like Naruto, A, and Gai. Tsunade isn't even Kakashi or Mifune. 



FlamingRain said:


> Kisame didn't know how fast Gai could move in that gate is what he meant.





BringerOfChaos said:


> He had never faced gated Gai. He had no idea how fast gated Gai was.



It wouldn't have made a difference, and wouldn't with Raikage. None of the other Kage have spared with A to get a sense of his tendencies and when to time their attacks to his, and they probably lack the reflexes to even throw out guards in response to Raikage's attack before Raikage has hit them. They'd be just as helpless.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> It's the only data we have on Tsunade's speed. Since I have no reason to believe that she got any faster while she was in her coma, I'll just assume she's still roughly comparable to people on that tier.



We only have invalid info, so we should use it.

I suppose we could use other things from the Madara fight, but that would be effort and it's not nice and pretty and we might actually have to come to the conclusion that the author and series doesn't always value sheer and directly measurable foot as essential to having a good character.  That would put us closer to how the author envisions and writes the characters and take us away from creating an insular and self-perpetuation Battledome eco-system loosely inspired by a series called Naruto.

Better we use the foot speed stat confusingly tied to reflexes which is oddly separated from the hand speed and jutsu speed that's confusingly tied to general knowledge of ninjutsu but only when it's not related to doujutsu which seems to scale more directly to the ninjutsu stat.  The author didn't do it that way, and told us not to, but that's better because at least we're used to it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

Real quick, that's not why you can hold a croc's mouth closed.  It's because they have virtually no muscles dedicated to opening their mouths.  They're all structured for clamping.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I don't think Ei's chop is superior to Susano.



A could _casually_ take his own arm from a standstill with Raiton-flow chop. We already know that A is more durable than Tsunade. We know what would happen to her if Raikage rammed a chop into her neck at his full speed.


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## Skaddix (Feb 22, 2016)

Also there is nothing to Say Susano's Armor is equivalent to its sword stabbing ability. Nor am i sure how its relevant Tsunade's durability is nothing to write home about ergo Raikage penetrates with ease.




Sadness on Wheels said:


> Real quick, that's not why you can hold a croc's mouth closed.  It's because they have virtually no muscles dedicated to opening their mouths.  They're all structured for clamping.



Yes and it why even strong humans arent great at breaking ropes tying said arms tied to their sides...muscle alignment doesnt provide proper leverage for such a feat. Its an analogy though.

I say this manga places a pretty darn high importance on speed be it Space/Time or more physical since pretty much everyone relevant at the end of this manga  was a speed demon of sort or else was packing insane defensive ability or a combination thereof.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> That would put us closer to how the author envisions and writes the characters and take us away from creating an insular and self-perpetuation Battledome eco-system loosely inspired by a series called Naruto.



Aren't you the one guilty of that? Kishimoto didn't seem to leave much room for interpretation when depicting Raikage.



Are Tsunade's reflexes superior to Sharingan Sasuke's? 

No.

Does Tsunade have an Amaterasu Susanoo to stop Raikage from attacking her?

No.

He envisioned Raikage as a character that Sasuke could not physically keep up with. Sasuke is a character that the author envisioned as stupid-fast himself, which is why he was able to give the Kage-level Deidara trouble with his movements and later dodge v1 Killer B in midair. Do you think Tsunade, or any of the other Kage, are going to do better than Sasuke did at keeping up with Raikage? Or can Raikage run behind them and cut their heads off like he would have done to Sasuke without the fire Susanoo?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> A could _casually_ take his own arm from a standstill with Raiton-flow chop. We already know that A is more durable than Tsunade. We know what would happen to her if Raikage rammed a chop into her neck at his full speed.



I count Ei chopping his arm off the same as Minato being a threat to him with his kunai.  His durability went away so someone could be cool.  It's also possible that Ei didn't have that durability outside his Armor yet, which would be an author flub.  It would explain why his durability was at first and fairly consistently attributed to his armor, and why he wasn't thought of as like his father in that respect.  

We don't tend to think of kage summit as that far from the Gokage fight, but it was years between them, and Kishi had at that time planned for Ei's father to use black lightening.  Obviously there were retcons, much like with the misplaced and non-sensical hiraishin squad.  Quite possibly because he flubbed his plans and was forced to rush Naruto, so he had to cut out Mei's fight and push the Gokage together to fight Madara in a hurry.  So Raikages were changed along with Kid Ei's durability.  I just made that up.  Don't crucify me.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

Even with that interpretation, there's also what happened to the Hachibi. I don't particulary think that Tsunade's head is harder to remove than Gyūki's gigantic horn. She isn't going to be taking Judo chop to the neck from Raikage. Those things could crack Susanoo from a standstill. Susanoo bones > Tsunade bones.


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## Skaddix (Feb 22, 2016)

I am not sure what your point is blunt force has never been equivalent to piercing or cutting attacks in this manga (as bad as that is in physics terms) by that I mean even characters with no durability can survive way more ragdolling then a normal human but still get dropped by stabbing abilities. Gaara getting ragdolled by Lee I mean sheesh  his brain and internal organs should be mush meanwhile Sasuke stabs on through the sand defense with Chidori. Or for instance Kisame says a raiton pencil from Kirabi would kill him if Samehada didnt absorb the chakra but this same Kisame takes a Noon Tiger enhanced by a Lake's Worth of Water and still doesnt die instantly. That is one of the more extreme examples but the point stands blunt force is way less effective then it should be in this manga. Not that Tsunade has any piercing abilities to make your point relevant or enhanced durability. Ei on the other hand does ergo he goes through Tsunade like butter.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

> Aren't you the one guilty of that? Kishimoto didn't seem to leave much room for interpretation when depicting Raikage.



Raikage is very fast.  I've never doubted that.  When I pointed out that Gaara could perceive Lee and move his arms I didn't say that Lee was slow.  I just said even in cases of extreme speed gaps ninjas are capable of movement and perception, typically within their specializations.  

Sasuke specialized mostly in ninjutsu, with a subordinate specialty in speed, yet was sub-par in taijutsu.  Relying instead on his eyes (ninjutsu) to cover his deficiencies.  He could not contend with Ei in sheer speed, nor could he in taijutsu.  So he fell to his highest ability, which was ninjutsu.

Naruto did have the speed, so he contended with speed.  Minato had the speed, so he contended with speed.

Madara didn't have the speed, but had the taijutsu and ninjutsu to do so.  So at first he blocked Ei's punch, and later he activated Susano.  

Speed is a strong aspect, as is any other highly developed skill, and they all shine most when compared with lesser characters who rely on that same skill.  Neji shined most against Hinata and Naruto, who both primarily engaged with taijutsu.  Mei's ninjutsu shined most against Madara's elementally disadvantaged ninjutsu.  Itachi shined most against Sasuke because they were so similar, and he was able to outplay Sasuke at his own strengths when they clashed.  Bee's swordsmanship shined most against Sasuke and Suigetsu's swordsmanship.  Sakura's medical jutsu looked good because it was better than Chiyo's medical jutsu.  Kabuto looked smart, because he outwitted Kakashi.

That's common, but equally common and no less impressive are when two separate specialties clash.   Kakashi's genjutsu looked good against Zabuza, because it was used to combat his ninjutsu.  Kakashi looked very smart, because his intelligence was used to combat Deva and Asura's raw power and chakra.  Jiraiya looked great, because his genjutsu and versatility was used to combat the single jutsu specializations and numerical superiority of the Paths.  Naruto looked stupid, because he defeated Haku's ninjutsu with strength.  Kabuto looked good, because he defeated Tsunade's strength and durability with ninjutsu and planning.  Naruto didn't really look cool when he farted on Kiba, but he did look cool when he defeated Kiba's speed and numbers with a henge.  Guy looked good when he defeated Kisame's ninjutsu with taijutsu.  Gaara looked good when he countered Kimi's taijutsu and KG with ninjutsu.  Kimi looked good when he defeated Gaara's ninjutsu with his KG and taijutsu.  Obito looked poorly drawn when he countered Minato and Tobirama's speed with ninjutsu, and Madara looked hella good when he defeated Tobirama's speed with taijutsu and spider sense.  This happens all the time, and to suggest that one aspect reigns above all other is demonstrably untrue throughout the manga.  One need not deny any character their dues in an ability to say it isn't for opponents classed together, or scored as distinct but equal within the setting.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

> Even with that interpretation, there's also what happened to the Hachibi.



Can show me a scan of anything that didn't slice, dice, stab, or screw up the Hachibi?


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## Skaddix (Feb 22, 2016)

Can u show us a Scan that shows any enhanced durability for Tsunade? 

Problem is Tsunade and Raikage have the same specialty ie CQC difference is Tsunade is stronger and has better regeneration and Raikage is faster with better durability.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

Yeah, but later, if that's okay.  I have to live real life and I'm out of stamina.


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## Skaddix (Feb 22, 2016)

Lol no rush I gotta go do something myself anyway just make sure as I noted its against slashing/piercing and not as I noted Blunt Force.


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## Rocky (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Can show me a scan of anything that didn't slice, dice, stab, or screw up the Hachibi?



Things that can slice through Gyūki wouldn't have much of an issue getting though Tsunade in my opinion. As for the long post, the point you were trying to make was lost on me. Unless it was this:



> I just said even in cases of extreme speed gaps ninjas are capable of movement and perception, typically within their specializations.



But that wouldn't make any sense. The movement & perception of each respective character is what determines whether or not there's a speed gap in the first place. There aren't special movement & perception stats for each of the ninja arts. Sasuke's movement is faster than Tsunade's movement, and his perception is off-the-charts faster than hers because of that Sharingan thing. 

Sasuke is better than Tsunade at physically dealing with speed in _every single way._ He's got anticipation ability bordering on clairvoyance, accelerated visual perception, and high speed of his own. If he needed a Susanoo to stop Raikage from running behind him and cutting his head off before he could do anything, Tsunade is not going to magically counterpunch Raikage with herpa derp "taijutsu skill". Raikage isn't Part I Kabuto.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 23, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> She wasn't trying too? And even if she couldn't react, she has more than 10 times the distance here lol.
> 
> Naruto could also run( not flicker) several meters as Ay amped his V2 flicker. Tsuande can summon in that time frame tbh.



She was trying to, she said herself that this time, she is fighting as well. It's because she wanted to protect Naruto from Ei, so i highly doubt she wanted him to hit Naruto.

So yeah - she was unable to react. At all.

I highly doubt that. She said few words, yes, but hey, words doesnt mean much in Narutoverse when it comes to speed and time.

Now, look at the distance.



Even from 200 meters distance, V2 Ei has a chance of blitzing her.

As for Madara's and Sasuke's cases:

1. Even if Tsunade hit Madara, you should remember that 5 Kage worked *together*. And we dont know what happened before that punch. What we know is that he was cornered by all 5 of them, not by Tsunade alone. 

2. Sasuke couldnt follow Raikage's movements. That's canon. So no - he probably couldnt react and used Enton because he came up with such an idea of protecting himself, that's all. There is nothing in the manga to suggest that he could *react* to V2 Ei's blitz.


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## Icegaze (Feb 23, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Okay, so you're telling me Madara made 25 wood clones from his reserves. 100/25 would be 4. So each clone had 4% of his chakra...
> 
> Then those clones went on to use V3 Susanoo for hours, and repair any damage their Susanoo sustained throughout the fight. 4% of Madara's chakra can do that? The clones chakra weren't being replenished at all?
> 
> ...



Wood clones have the ability to regen . In the same way a water clone in water could simply reform


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 23, 2016)

This thread is so dumb.

Any semblance of an argument pro-Tsunade supporters have had in this thread have amounted to either hilariously wrong interpretations of Ay's speed feat vs. Sasuke (saying Sasuke 'reacted' to him, lol), or ridiculously hyping of Tsunade's unimpressive taijutsu prowess that don't do a single thing to make up for the difference in speeds. Each of these arguments have been thoroughly beaten to the ground.


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