# Amenotejikara vs Flying Thunder God



## Cad Bane (Apr 3, 2019)

Which is the superior teleportation Jutsu all-around, combat-wise?


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## Android (Apr 3, 2019)

Ame no Tejikara is only superior in that it doesn't require tags or hand seals.

Hiraishin is more versatile and more useful and is not limited in rang, has no cool down and can be used for defense (Guiding Thunder) and support (Hiraishin Gushen Mawashi) and can be used to teleport multiple targets.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 3, 2019)

Ame, since it doesn’t require any prep or any need to touch an opponent first and can’t really be countered by just destroying seals/kunai. Adult Sasuke can use it three times in row successively, and while that means he can’t spam it like you can with FTG, it’s unlikely that he would need any more than three uses of it anyway.


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## Android (Apr 3, 2019)

A little Kamui wank:

Kamui is superior to both.
No tags or hand seals.
Not limited in rang.
Self teleportation + teleporting other targets.
Intangiblity
Can be used offensively to dismember the target.
Can synchronize with other S/T to access other dimensions.

Authority of the God GG.


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## The Great One (Apr 3, 2019)

FTG.

No limited Usage.
No limited Range.
Can be used with clones.
Guiding Thunder.


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 3, 2019)

ghost kamui=ameno>ftg>sniper kamui

ameno has a cooldown for a reason, lol


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## kayz (Apr 3, 2019)

Batzzaro29 said:


> FTG.
> 
> *No lmited Usage*.
> No limited Range.
> ...


If the user is low on chakra, he won't be able to use it.


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## The Great One (Apr 3, 2019)

kayz said:


> If the user is low on chakra, he won't be able to use it.


Minato was able to use it multiple times with clones.

Sasuke was only able to use it trice with Rikudo tier chakra.


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## Ultrafragor (Apr 3, 2019)

FTG: brings the user to a marked point

Ame No Te Jikara: brings user to selected location, brings target to user, switches user and target, switches two selected objects




Sasuke's jutsu has much more utility. It can do everything FTG can do and more.

Even Minato's advancements of FG like lvl 2 and guiding thunder are just abilities that Ame No Te Jikara started out with.

And Sasuke's ability to open portals is likely related to this jutsu, so you can add that to the list of what Ame No Te Jikara can do.


It's just silly to ask which is better. Sasuke's jutsu is like a FTG that instantly marks everything in the area for use, but can also move objects besides the user.


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 3, 2019)

Ameno is superior combat wise lol.


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 3, 2019)

Ameno,  if you are within a certain range you can take back of any enemy.  

Sasuke using Katon and the ameno that is pretty much unavoidable while gtg  requires prep and correct execution.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Great One (Apr 3, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> FTG: brings the user to a marked point
> 
> Ame No Te Jikara: brings user to selected location, brings target to user, switches user and target, switches two selected objects
> 
> ...


You can teleportation TB tier jutsu to marked place as long as you've chakra.

With Ameno you're restricted 3-4 times.

You can use FTG with clones.

You can't use Ameno with clones due to high chakra consumption.

Ameno has 2 or more utilities then FTG, but it's consuming to the point where Sasuke could only use it 3-4 times.

Minato used FTG 100 times in a single battle during 3rd Shinobi war.


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## The Great One (Apr 3, 2019)

The_Conqueror said:


> Ameno,  if you are within a certain range you can take back of any enemy.
> 
> Sasuke using Katon and the ameno that is pretty much unavoidable while gtg  requires prep and correct execution.


Minato already had many pre marked destinations to teleport.

Which is how he saved Naruto when Obito tagged him with explosive tag, Because Minato already had a FTG mark in his home.

With equal stats no Ameno user is ever tagging a FTG user... Because FTG user will always have pre marked destinations.


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## Trojan (Apr 3, 2019)

FTG is superior.

Ameno is simply a Kawarimi no jutsu...

Reactions: Like 1


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## King1 (Apr 3, 2019)

Ameno is better for combat


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## Grinningfox (Apr 3, 2019)

FTG is obviously superior

Teleport to anywhere a mark has ever been

Warp away blast Juubidama

Can be used with clones

Can teleport others


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## Tri (Apr 3, 2019)

I mean, in terms of combat ameno is flat out better.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 3, 2019)

Ameno is literally FTG without prep but with shorter range

*Hiraishin*

No specific range cap
No CD
Can be used on multiple things/people simultaneously, like when minato saved the ASF with naruto for example
S/T barrier for defensive capability
Multiple variants, ni no dan, goshun mawashi with a partner or a KB, senko cho rinbuko sanshiki
Markings never disappear
utility with KBs in that they can summon the original to their posistion and vice versa
*Amenotejikara*

requires no prep time
can transport things without being in direct contact or without being connected via chakra
can be used to swap places with anything around the user provided it is within range
can place an enemy directly in your path of attack with no prep
range can be increased via amp
not only switches the user with the target, but also switches the momentum as well

Overall, id say Ameno is better for offence, or more accurately close combat, as it is what it is restricted to due to its short range, can swap an opponent into your attack with no contact or warning, and individual combat support.

And Hiraishin is better for defense due to its ability to be spammed thanks to no CD, can be used to escape large scale attacks thanks to its seemingly limitless range, its barrier technique, clone utilities, and support it offers to teammates.



Hussain said:


> FTG is superior.
> 
> Ameno is simply a Kawarimi no jutsu...


Anyone who thinks this is dumb

Kawarmi is fucking sleight of hand...Its not a S/T tech


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2019)

in combat there is nothing Ameno can do that hirashin cant. it allows neither use to blitz an enemy significantly faster than the users 

Mono and Juubidara simply countered both techniques 

both would also troll enemies both users are stronger than thus reinforcing that they are. both can function the same way, sasuke was shown throwing his sword v momo then swapping with it. only issue is Ameno has more of a tell by that reason, as once the enemy sees the sword where sasuke was its obvious sasuke has swapped with the sword. 

in combat, hirahsin could beat Ameno assuming both heroes are at the same level. in the same way hirashin beat kamui


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## Bonly (Apr 3, 2019)

If you read the manga then it’s pretty clear that Hiraishin is the lesser of the two


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2019)

Bonly said:


> If you read the manga then it’s pretty clear that Hiraishin is the lesser of the two



and yet they were trolled equally and defended against the same way. i guess its just as clear as kamui>hirashin


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 3, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> and yet they were trolled equally and defended against the same way. i guess its just as clear as kamui>hirashin


When was that?


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> When was that?



Momoshiki trolled adult sasuke when he used Ameno in the same way minato would use hirahsin. i.e wrap to a weapon 

hirashin showed>kamui when in a battle of speed hirashin came out on top and obito was marked for 16 years


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 3, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> Momoshiki trolled adult sasuke when he used Ameno in the same way minato would use hirahsin. i.e wrap to a weapon
> 
> hirashin showed>kamui when in a battle of speed hirashin came out on top and obito was marked for 16 years


Really depends on which source material we are talking about, in the Boruto anime Sasuke was the one doing the trolling. Both are canon


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Really depends on which source material we are talking about, in the Boruto anime Sasuke was the one doing the trolling. Both are canon



lol now i know you trolling. as the situation i refer to happened in both manga and anime. he got bitch slapped using Ameno


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 3, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> lol now i know you trolling. as the situation i refer to happened in both manga and anime. he got bitch slapped using Ameno


So Sasuke taking Momoshiki's eye while switching his Kunai with a Chidori is getting trolled now? HAHAHAH


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 3, 2019)

Amenotejikara let someone physically on-par with base Naruto land a hit on SPSM Naruto.

FTG couldn't save a significantly faster SM Minato from having his arm cut off by Jūbi Madara.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> So Sasuke taking Momoshiki's eye while switching his Kunai with a Chidori is getting trolled now? HAHAHAH



no him getting kicked after swappign with his sword is though. barely managing to do minimal damage usign S/t jutsu when naruto could hand to hand momo in base doesnt speak well for sasuke here. not sure why you sounding salty


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2019)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Amenotejikara let someone physically on-par with base Naruto land a hit on SPSM Naruto.
> 
> FTG couldn't save a significantly faster SM Minato from having his arm cut off by Jūbi Madara.



am confused when did Ameno hit SPSM naruto?

also since when was sasuke physically on par with base naruto. base naruto has no speed feats at all to make such claim


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 3, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> no him getting kicked after swappign with his sword is though. barely managing to do minimal damage usign S/t jutsu when naruto could hand to hand momo in base doesnt speak well for sasuke here. not sure why you sounding salty


But we are talking about Ameno itself lmao, "naruto could hand to hand momo in base doesnt speak well for sasuke here" nice change of subject tho


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 3, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> am confused when did Ameno hit SPSM naruto?
> 
> also since when was sasuke physically on par with base naruto. base naruto has no speed feats at all to make such claim



VOTE2

Rinnegan Sasuke was not physically buffed.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> But we are talking about Ameno itself lmao, "naruto could hand to hand momo in base doesnt speak well for sasuke here" nice change of subject tho



Ameno itself was dealt with same way hirahsin was. is my point 

i.e neither help a weaker opponent get the better of someone physically faster than they are


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2019)

ATastyMuffin said:


> VOTE2
> 
> Rinnegan Sasuke was not physically buffed.



yh i still dont see when base naruto matched him physically.like dead serious, that never happened


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 3, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> Ameno itself was dealt with same way hirahsin was. is my point
> 
> i.e neither help a weaker opponent get the better of someone physically faster than they are


Not really, Minato could not even hit Madara while Sasuke not only hit momoshiki but actually took his eye. FTG achieving nothing while Ameno made Momoshiki useless. Doesn't matter how it's dealt with when one achieved more than the other.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 3, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> yh i still dont see when base naruto matched him physically.like dead serious, that never happened



Did you somehow miss their entire final fight? When they were throwing haymakers at each other?


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## Android (Apr 3, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> yh i still dont see when base naruto matched him physically.like dead serious, that never happened


Then you clearly didn't see the VotE2 fight after the mechs battle.


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## Android (Apr 3, 2019)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Amenotejikara let someone physically on-par with base Naruto land a hit on SPSM Naruto.


On par with Rikudo enhanced base Naruto.



ATastyMuffin said:


> FTG couldn't save a significantly faster SM Minato from having his arm cut off by Jūbi Madara.


I can't tell if you're serious.

This has Nothing to do with the S/T jutsu itself.

Sasuke tagged Naruto while Minato failed because Sasuke is physically much faster than Minato.


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## Ultrafragor (Apr 3, 2019)

Batzzaro29 said:


> You can teleportation TB tier jutsu to marked place as long as you've chakra.
> 
> With Ameno you're restricted 3-4 times.
> 
> ...



lol, Sasuke's limitations when he first learned the jutsu are irrelevant to the overall discussion.

You can't use them as limits for the jutsu itself.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2019)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Did you somehow miss their entire final fight? When they were throwing haymakers at each other?



you mean when sasuke had no sharingan and could not use shunshin. both were exhausted terrible comparison to make there. as sasuke uses sharingan and shunshin 100% of the time while fighting if he has the chakra for it. 
i.e base naruto and sharingan sasuke in combat are not comparable as sasuke has much better reactions and shunshin speed


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## Bonly (Apr 3, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> and yet they were trolled equally and defended against the same way. i guess its just as clear as kamui>hirashin



Indeed it is clear that Hiraishin is the lesser of the two just like how Kamui>Hiraishin, I’m glad you agree


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2019)

Bonly said:


> Indeed it is clear that Hiraishin is the lesser of the two just like how Kamui>Hiraishin, I’m glad you agree



Obito and i agree no doubt


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 3, 2019)

Kamui > Flying Thunder God > Amenotejikara. Ameno may enable it's user to teleport without preparation, swap places with targets, but it's range is extremely limited, and it can only be used a few times before the user tires. FTG on the other hand can be used much more, it's range is unlimited, and it can be used to warp extremely large targets (such as the Ten-Tails TBB) or massive groups (such as the whole Alliance). These are things Ameno could never do, so I say Ameno may be superior offensively, but in terms of defense and overall versatility FTG is superior. So I'll vote for FTG.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Apr 3, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> you mean when sasuke had no sharingan and could not use shunshin. both were exhausted terrible comparison to make there. as sasuke uses sharingan and shunshin 100% of the time while fighting if he has the chakra for it.
> i.e base naruto and sharingan sasuke in combat are not comparable as sasuke has much better reactions and shunshin speed


Sasuke already used a shunshin at the beginning of their fight. And it accomplished jack shit.


Foh.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2019)

Android said:


> Sasuke already used a shunshin at the beginning of their fight. And it accomplished jack shit.
> 
> 
> Foh.



so they clash and you conclude base naruto and sasuke are equal in speed and reactions? then erm why didnt sasuke just get shit blitz and restrained once naruto amped to RSM mode? 

drawing conclusion from that is as dumb as saying KCm naruto<A4 V1 when we know naruto can avoid his fastest punch


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## MaruUchiha (Apr 3, 2019)

Let's just say one is a High Kage Tier jutsu and the other is God Tier


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## The Great One (Apr 3, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> lol, Sasuke's limitations when he first learned the jutsu are irrelevant to the overall discussion.
> 
> You can't use them as limits for the jutsu itself.


Yes I can because Ameno is an consuming technique for even Rikudo  tier characters... FTG is not consuming to the point where Minato's whole fighting style is based around it.

Can Sasuke use Ameno hundred times in a single battle?

Because Minato did used FTG hundred times in a single battle... That's how he decimated thousand of Iwa forces in seconds.

How many TBB Sasuke can replace with Ameno?

Someone with FTG can teleport as much TBB as they want.


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## The Great One (Apr 3, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> so they clash and you conclude base naruto and sasuke are equal in speed and reactions? then erm why didnt sasuke just get shit blitz and restrained once naruto amped to RSM mode?
> 
> drawing conclusion from that is as dumb as saying KCm naruto<A4 V1 when we know naruto can avoid his fastest punch


Asnwers is Sharingan pre cog : we are talking about a guy who gets destroyed by Base Bee but somehow dodges 7 tailed V1 Bee.

And 7 Tailed V1 Bee should be x70 times stronger/durable/faster then his Base version at bare minimum.

Also...

We had whole fight between Base Naruto and Sasuke who were equally tired.

But Sasuke did not over powered him there either.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Apr 3, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> so they clash and you conclude base naruto and sasuke are equal in speed and reactions?


Can you read ?
Sasuke rushed Naruto with a Shunshin, and the later easily reacted to it.
If there was a really large gap in speed then a blitz would've accrued, but it didn't.

Good thing no one said they were equal in speed. Sasuke edges it out but they shouldn't be far apart like you were implying.



Icegaze said:


> then erm why didnt sasuke just get shit blitz and restrained once naruto amped to RSM mode?


If you read the manga you'd learn that Naruto intentionally stayed on the defense until the BPS and Ashura mode clash.


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## The Great One (Apr 3, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kamui > Flying Thunder God > Amenotejikara. Ameno may enable it's user to teleport without preparation, swap places with targets, but it's range is extremely limited, and it can only be used a few times before the user tires. FTG on the other hand can be used much more, it's range is unlimited, and it can be used to warp extremely large targets (such as the Ten-Tails TBB) or massive groups (such as the whole Alliance). These are things Ameno could never do, so I say Ameno may be superior offensively, but in terms of defense and overall versatility FTG is superior. So I'll vote for FTG.


FTG : Teleported entire ninja alliance.
Ameno : ?

Minato spammed FTG hundred of times in a single battle during 3rd Shinobi war.
Ameno : 3-4 times?

And we've people thinking Ameno is somehow better.


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 3, 2019)

@Batzzaro29 You....really really hate Sasuke, don't you?


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## The Great One (Apr 3, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> @Batzzaro29 You....really really hate Sasuke, don't you?


I'm stating facts.

Minato spammed FTG hundred times in a single battle during Third Shinobi War : Fact.

Sasuke can only use Ameno 3-4 times during single battle : Fact.

Ameno is God Tier... Only in chakra consumption.


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## Braiyan (Apr 3, 2019)

Ame-longassname is the better combat jutsu. It does what FTG does with less setup and less requirements. The only thing FTG has over Ame-blah is a longer range, but that longer range has to be established via the setup of marking locations, which is a disadvantage in a neutral setting. Ame-wordsalad can teleport/swap anything within the user's defined range without markings or prior warning.


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## Trojan (Apr 3, 2019)

Ameno MIGHT looks better on the surface, but that's only because it's user (I.E Sasuke) is far stronger Shinobi than FTG users (Minato/Tobirama).

the applications of the jutsu themselves (regardless of the user's ability) FTG shits on Ameno easily... 

With that being said, I don't think Kishi really knew what he wanted to do with it which might have caused some confusion to the readers. like sometimes it's shown that the user can only "swap" with something else (I think it was stated in the databook as well) where other times it appears like swapping between 2 things is not needed?

if you want to take the "latest" as what Kishi settled with, Sasuke swapped himself with his sword against Momoshiki and swapped himself with the little Shin against the older shin...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Apr 3, 2019)

Braiyan said:


> The only thing FTG has over Ame-blah is a longer range


it's not the only thing. Ameno has a cool-down as well, which FTG does not.


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## The Great One (Apr 3, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Ameno MIGHT looks better on the surface, but that's only because it's user (I.E Sasuke) is far stronger Shinobi than FTG users (Minato/Tobirama).
> 
> the applications of the jutsu themselves (regardless of the user's ability) FTG shits on Ameno easily...
> 
> ...


Yeah the shit is confusing.

Againt Madara he couldn't teleport but had to swap with things or could replace his sword in front of Madara.

Same with his fight againt Kaguya...he fired a Susanoo arrow to swap his position but couldn't teleport himself.

But againt Naruto he was able apper behind him w/o swapping (I think he did it with a TSB tho).

But againt Shin/Momo/Kinshiki he couldn't teleport again but had to swap with wether its Shin or a statue or a sword

The shit is confusing.

We have only one instance where Sasuke may be Teleported regularly(Naruto).

While all of his other fights were him swapping places.


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## Ultrafragor (Apr 3, 2019)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Yes I can because Ameno is an consuming technique for even Rikudo  tier characters... FTG is not consuming to the point where Minato's whole fighting style is based around it.
> 
> Can Sasuke use Ameno hundred times in a single battle?
> 
> ...



Adult Sasuke, probably

Which invalidates the entire attempt to say that if teen Sasuke can't do it 30 seconds after getting Ameno, then it's not possible.


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## The Great One (Apr 3, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> Adult Sasuke, probably
> 
> Which invalidates the entire attempt to say that if teen Sasuke can't do it 30 seconds after getting Ameno, then it's not possible.


Sasuke using Ameno hundreds times? No.

During his last battle Sasuke only used Ameno twice.

Compare it with Minato's fight againt Obito... He was spamming it.
Minato used FTG 12-13 times there on screen.

Fact is FTG is spammable to the point where Minato's entire fighting style is based around it unlike Ameno.

Ameno is useless w/o god tier reserves while FTG makes a god tier broken.


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## Grinningfox (Apr 3, 2019)

Working under the assumption that Sasuke’s dimensional travel is related to Ameno  would that change anything for any of you


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## UltimaDude (Apr 3, 2019)

I'd say that FTG is better as some others have stated why. But, where do people get the idea that Ameno is chakra consuming? Yes, it has a cooldown, but that doesn't mean it's chakra consuming. Sasuke never shown any signs of exhaustion when he's on cooldown.


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## blk (Apr 3, 2019)

Strictly for direct combat, with no previous prep and within a certain range, Ameno clearly wins. It can assure almost instant victory infact.

However, FTG users can put markers everywhere they touch, so it's very unlikely that one won't already have a lot of places to teleport to in case of need. And it doesn't require significant prep to tag at least some part of the battlefield (again, it's just a touch).

The range advantage of FTG, the ability to make S/T barriers, much lower chakra cost (or no cooldown anyway), put the jutsu overall above Ameno.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Apr 3, 2019)

Both of them are pretty broken, imo. I'm going with Ameno, though. It's essentially FTG on steroids, and can't be reliably countered since it's so damn haxxed.


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## UltimaDude (Apr 3, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> can't be reliably countered since it's so damn haxxed.


It has been countered by Momo and Kaguya, especially Kaguya. Naruto blocked (though barely) from Sasuke's attempted Ameno blitzed. So you can't really say that it can't be countered


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## BlackHeartedImp (Apr 4, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> It has been countered by Momo and Kaguya, especially Kaguya. Naruto blocked (though barely) from Sasuke's attempted Ameno blitzed. So you can't really say that it can't be countered


I said "reliably" countered. And those are 3 god tiers. Do I need to explain why that's impressive?


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## The Great One (Apr 4, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> I said "reliably" countered. And those are 3 god tiers. Do I need to explain why that's impressive?



Ameno and those other Teleportation jutsus are impressive because those are used by God tiers.

Minato is impressive because he used FTG.

Ameno is consuming to the point where even God tiers can only use it for limited time.

While FTG is so fuel efficient that any god tier can pick it up and spam it 1000 times in a single battle.

Give a common Shinobi Ameno : he dies due to chakra exhaustion while using it.

Give a common jonin FTG : he becomes Kage tier.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 4, 2019)

And people still say that FTG isn't overrated.


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## Icegaze (Apr 4, 2019)

Android said:


> Can you read ?
> Sasuke rushed Naruto with a Shunshin, and the later easily reacted to it.
> If there was a really large gap in speed then a blitz would've accrued, but it didn't.
> 
> ...



Sure thing buddy 
Base naruto and sasuke using dojutsu are close in speed 
Sounds reasonable 
Might as well say Suigetsu is faster than A4 since he was able to travel further before A4 could move his arm 
Legit feat no ?


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## Trojan (Apr 4, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> And people still say that FTG isn't overrated.


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## Ganta (Apr 4, 2019)

Android said:


> Hiraishin is more versatile



Both are equally versatile. Sasuke does not need to lock on a chakra to use as a target, but the space a particular target is occupying.




Android said:


> and more useful and *is not limited in range*




 unlike Hiraishin, Sasuke's Jikukan Ninjutsu can traverse dimensions. That means he can warp anywhere within and even outside of his native dimension. How's that for range?



Android said:


> has no cool down



Neither does Amenotejikara.  Sasuke became able to do his hops even when his Rinnegan is overused.




Android said:


> and can be used for defense (*Guiding Thunder*)


 Sasuke shifts the location of Ninjutsu in Boruto the movie.




Android said:


> and support (Hiraiashin Gushen Mawashi) and *can be used to teleport multiple targets*.



Sasuke warped Sakura, Obito and himself to Naruto and Kakashi's location.


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## UltimaDude (Apr 4, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> I said "reliably" countered. And those are 3 god tiers. Do I need to explain why that's impressive?


But, they have been. A technique used by a god-tier being countered by another god-tier is anything but impressive


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## UltimaDude (Apr 4, 2019)

Ganta said:


> unlike Hiraishin, Sasuke's Jikukan Ninjutsu can traverse dimensions. That means he can warp anywhere within and even outside of his native dimension. How's that for range?


Sasuke uses a completely different tech to hop between dimensions. 


Ganta said:


> Neither does Amenotejikara. Sasuke became able to do his hops even when his Rinnegan is overused.


Sasuke only used the tech three times during the whole fight against Momo, so the cooldown may still be a thing


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## BlackHeartedImp (Apr 4, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> But, they have been. A technique used by a god-tier being countered by another god-tier is anything but impressive


Do you not know what "reliably" means? Should I say "consistently" then? That's my point, the only people thus far who have countered that move in the 15 years Sasuke has had it are 3 beings beyond anything the ninja world can naturally produce. How is that not impressive?


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## UltimaDude (Apr 4, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Do you not know what "reliably" means? Should I say "consistently" then? That's my point, the only people thus far who have countered that move in the 15 years Sasuke has had it are 3 beings beyond anything the ninja world can naturally produce. How is that not impressive?


Do *you* not know what reliably or consistently means? Because Ameno has been countered in both ways. Again, *a technique being used by a god-tier that's countered by other god-tiers* is not impressive at all. Sasuke, himself is a god-tier, his uses of Ameno keep getting countered by other god-tiers. That's in no way impressive. Of course, no individual below god-tier will be able to counter Sasuke's Ameno blitz. But that's because of Sasuke being extremely powerful, not because of Ameno's hax. Not to mention, Shin was able to counter an Ameno swap. So take that as you will

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ganta (Apr 4, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> Sasuke uses a completely different tech to hop between dimensions.



Not quite, Jikukan Ninjutsu is his Rinnegan ability, but Amenotejikara makes use of that ability, much like Chakra absorption is a Rinnegan ability, but _Gakidō_/_Fūjutsu Kyūin_ ('Blocking Technique Absorption Seal') makes use of that ability.


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## UltimaDude (Apr 4, 2019)

Ganta said:


> Not quite, Jikukan Ninjutsu is his Rinnegan ability, but Amenotejikara makes use of that ability, much like Chakra absorption is a Rinnegan ability, but _Gakidō_/_Fūjutsu Kyūin_ ('Blocking Technique Absorption Seal') makes use of that ability.


They're not quite the same. Amenotejikara is a completely independent technique than whatever technique Sasuke used to make a portal. This is not like techniques that stem off a single path power. Even if Ameno and the portal technique are like techs from a path power, they are not one and the same. Thus, they can't be lumped in together.


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## PrimeRichard (Apr 4, 2019)

Ameno user can teleport without any kunai and require no prep, you can swap people with almost anything , You can teleport people willingly into your path or position. Above all you can swap jutsu with the opponent attack.
*Ameno in itself doesn't have a cool down. Sasuke only has a cool down when he travel through dimension since it takes more chakra. *People confuse dimension travelling as  Ameno jutsu but it's a different jutsu on it's own.
FTG on the other hand require prep of throwing kunai but has the advantage of better range teleportation and teleporting big attacks away
combat wise its clear ameno is the superior one


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## The Great One (Apr 4, 2019)

PrimeRichard said:


> Ameno user can teleport without any kunai and require no prep, you can swap people with almost anything , You can teleport people willingly into your path or position. Above all you can swap jutsu with the opponent attack.
> *Ameno in itself doesn't have a cool down. Sasuke only has a cool down when he travel through dimension since it takes more chakra. *People confuse dimension travelling as  Ameno jutsu but it's a different jutsu on it's own.
> FTG on the other hand require prep of throwing kunai but has the advantage of better range teleportation and teleporting big attacks away
> combat wise its clear ameno is the superior one


FTG user can use Shuriken/Kunai Shadow Clones and wipe out army.

Which Ameno can't do.

Ameno has a cool down because Sasuke used it twice againt Momoshiki.

Minato used FTG 12 to 13 times against Obito.

Ameno's versatility is useless when you can only use it like 4-5 times in a single combat... Even with god tier chakra reserves.

While someone with avarage chakra reserves like Minato was able to use FTG 12 to 13 times on screen.

Also if FTG user Marks someone... He/she is screwed for life.

While Ameno only works on people you see


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## PrimeRichard (Apr 4, 2019)

Batzzaro29 said:


> FTG user can use Shuriken/Kunai Shadow Clones and wipe out army.
> 
> Which Ameno can't do.


Ameno user(s) can swap their jutsu with opponents attack and screw them

Which FTG can't do


Batzzaro29 said:


> Ameno has a cool down because Sasuke used it twice againt Momoshiki


FTG is sync in minato every battle as it covers 90% of his battle and its what people know him for. Ameno isn't sasuke go to jutsu so he wont be spamming it like susanoo or amaterasu, instead he use it to supplement  his attacks. Naruto use rasengan/clones more than chakra arms because it's his signature jutsu simple.


Batzzaro29 said:


> Minato used FTG 12 to 13 times against Obito.


Because it's mostly his go to jutsu so of course he will spam it all he wants. Minato using FTG more while sasuke uses ameno less doesn't imply FTG is superior rather it the user every day jutsu.


Batzzaro29 said:


> Ameno's versatility is useless when you can only use it like 4-5 times in a single combat... Even with god tier chakra reserves.


You mean after teleporting through dimension which takes chakra. Ameno troll momo when he got restricted in his own chains intented for sasuke. Ameno swap chidori with momo kunai and destroyed his eyes. Sasuke showed ameno is quality when it troll a God after using it like three times while someone loses his arm with his so called FTG. Why didn't him spam FTG 12-13 times to save his ass. Quality >> Quantity


Batzzaro29 said:


> While someone with avarage chakra reserves like Minato was able to use FTG 12 to 13 times on screen.


Yh because minato travel through kaguya dimensions,oh wait! He doesn't. Like i said FTG is what his combat style is about and he still lost an arm with his FTG while ameno troll momoshiki.


Batzzaro29 said:


> Also if FTG user Marks someone... He/she is screwed for life.


True


Batzzaro29 said:


> While Ameno only works on people you see


Is FTG any different. iirc sasuke swap place with a statue without looking at it


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## Ganta (Apr 4, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> They're not quite the same. Amenotejikara is a *completely independent* technique than whatever technique Sasuke used to make a portal.





UltimaDude said:


> *this is not like techniques that stem off a single path power*.



*Flu* and the common *cold* are both respiratory illnesses but they are caused by *different* viruses.(Independent)

Amenotejikara and the portal are both teleportation Ninjutsu that Sasuke's Rinnegan is responsible for. (Dependent)​



UltimaDude said:


> Even if Ameno and the portal technique are like techs from a path power, they are not one and the same. Thus, they can't be lumped in together.



For the purposes of this thread, all forms of teleportation in Sasuke's Rinnegan power-set can be lumped together.


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## UltimaDude (Apr 4, 2019)

Ganta said:


> Amenotejikara and the portal are both teleportation Ninjutsu that Sasuke's Rinnegan is responsible for


Tsukuyomi, Amateratsu, and Susanoo are all dojutsu that Itachi's MS is responsible. Does that mean they are dependent on each other, let alone part of a single ability like the Deva path and its techs? No, it doesn't. The same applies to Sasuke's two ST techs


Ganta said:


> For the purposes of this thread, all forms of teleportation in Sasuke's Rinnegan power-set can be lumped together.


Sasuke's two *ST *techs are not the same. They have different functions and applications. Not to mention, one has a name while the other doesn't. Thus, they can't be lumped together. It's very disingenuous to say that they can be lumped in together


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## Ganta (Apr 5, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> *Tsukuyomi, Amateratsu, and Susanoo *are all dojutsu that Itachi's MS is responsible. Does that mean they are dependent on each other, let alone part of a single ability like the Deva path and its techs? No, it doesn't. The same applies to Sasuke's two ST techs



Ameno-jumps and the dimensional door have the same modus operandi: _*Space-time as a technique*._
Tsukuyomi is genjutsu-based while Amaterasu is Katon-based and Susanoo is worn, so these are not related in that respect.



UltimaDude said:


> *Sasuke's two ST techs are not the same*. They have different functions and applications. Not to mention, one has a name while the other doesn't. Thus, they can't be lumped together. It's very disingenuous to say that they can be lumped in together



 This statement keep missing the point. His Rinnegan's Jikukan jutsu is a precursor to two abilities he possess: Amenotejikara and the dimension doors. No one said they're one in the same, however, for the purposes of this thread, "space-time" encompasses all teleportation techniques under Sasuke's Rinnegan.


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## UltimaDude (Apr 5, 2019)

Ganta said:


> Ameno-jumps and the dimensional door have the same modus operandi: _*Space-time as a technique*._
> Tsukuyomi is genjutsu-based while Amaterasu is Katon-based and Susanoo is worn, so these are not related in that respect.


Them being both ST techs doesn't mean they can be lumped in together. They are clearly different ST techs. This isn't like Kamui where it has two aspects. Ameno and the portal tech are clearly different and do not stem from a single ability. 


Ganta said:


> This statement keep missing the point. His Rinnegan's Jikukan jutsu is a precursor to two abilities he possess: Amenotejikara and the dimension doors. No one said they're one in the same, however, for the purposes of this thread, "space-time" encompasses all teleportation techniques under Sasuke's Rinnegan.


This thread is focusing strictly on Ameno and FTG. And you, yourself know that since you can read. The thread isn't comparing Sasuke's ST techs to that of Minato's. So, again, you can't lumped them together


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## sabre320 (Apr 5, 2019)

On equal level fighters ftg is more versatile. Ameno when used requires a cd while ftg can be spammed in succesion and on equal level fighters would have the same impact in case of a blitz attemp requiring reactions to react. Ameno also has a range case in point sasuke needing to come close to sakura. 

Ftg can teleport any level projectile with ease even with vastly lower level chakra reserves. Base minato was easily able to teleport a super juubidama, a godtier like naruto could have even teleportted perhaps kaguyas guodama with ftg.

Ftg can be used to move thousands of targets simultaneoulsy and can be used with clones to form multiple space time barriers.

In conclusion ameno has superior combat ability initially due to its lack of restrictions in cqc but on equal level fighters ftg quickly becomes more effective in a drawn out fight.

Imagine sasuke had ftg against momo he would keep warping momo and naruto into his blindspots constantly and could have teleported momos super bijudama easily preventing narutos sacrifice and have capitalized onto the opening.


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## Ganta (Apr 5, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> Them being both ST techs doesn't mean they can be lumped in together. *They are clearly different ST techs*.



 Again, I don't doubt this, but I keep explaining and you keep missing the point. Sasuke's most unique Rinnegan ability is space-time jutsu.

This ability then confers:

Amenotejikara
Dimension door, and
seeing time contortions in reality's flow.​

To use his space-time jutsu is more than simply Amenotejikara.




UltimaDude said:


> This isn't like Kamui where it has two aspects.



Kamui actually has *one* aspect, not two, as it grants Obito and Kakashi connection to *one* time-space.

However, Obito and Kakashi could be considered using Kamui in a near-endless myriad of ways: phasing, warping, barrier ninjutsu and so forth. 



UltimaDude said:


> Ameno and the portal tech are clearly different and do not stem from a single ability.



They are two different techniques, yes, but both also use Sasuke's Rinnegan Jikukan as their base.



UltimaDude said:


> *This thread is focusing strictly on Ameno and FTG*. And you, yourself know that since you can read. The thread isn't comparing Sasuke's ST techs to that of Minato's. So, again, you can't lumped them together





*Spoiler*: _O' rly?_ 






Android said:


> *Kamui* is superior to both.
> No tags or hand seals.
> Not limited in rang.
> Self teleportation + teleporting other targets.
> ...





wooly Eullerex said:


> *ghost kamui*=ameno>ftg>sniper kamui
> 
> ameno has a cooldown for a reason, lol





Icegaze said:


> and yet they were trolled equally and defended against the same way. i guess its just as clear as *kamui*>hirashin





Isaiah13000 said:


> *Kamui *> Flying Thunder God > Amenotejikara. Ameno may enable it's user to teleport without preparation, swap places with targets, but it's range is extremely limited, and it can only be used a few times before the user tires.


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 5, 2019)

FTG got stumped by Juubito , Ame stumped Fused Momoshiki you do the math


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 5, 2019)

sabre320 said:


> On equal level fighters ftg is more versatile. Ameno when used requires a cd while ftg can be spammed in succesion and on equal level fighters would have the same impact in case of a blitz attemp requiring reactions to react. Ameno also has a range case in point sasuke needing to come close to sakura.
> 
> Ftg can teleport any level projectile with ease even with vastly lower level chakra reserves. Base minato was easily able to teleport a super juubidama, a godtier like naruto could have even teleportted perhaps kaguyas guodama with ftg.
> 
> ...



That’s chicken or the egg because most often than not a Rinnegan user will
Be far superior than someone who relies on FTG .


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## Trojan (Apr 5, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Ame stumped Fused Momoshiki you do the math


it did? 
pretty sure Momoshiki kicked Sasuke's ass...


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 5, 2019)

Hussain said:


> it did?
> pretty sure Momoshiki kicked Sasuke's ass...



In the Anime fight which is Cannon we see him using Ame on Momoshiki effectively , also we was able to use it on Kinshiki as well .


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## Trojan (Apr 5, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> In the Anime fight which is Cannon we see him using Ame on Momoshiki effectively , also we was able to use it on Kinshiki as well .


if you will take 1 incident and ignore that Momoshiki kicked his face
did not FTG work on JJ Obito several times as well?
1- When Tobirama teleported SM Naruto and smashed him
2- when Minato & Tobirama swapped and made Naruto & Sasuke land a direct hit on him

...etc?


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## UltimaDude (Apr 5, 2019)

Ganta said:


> Again, I don't doubt this, but I keep explaining and you keep missing the point. Sasuke's most unique Rinnegan ability is space-time jutsu.
> 
> This ability then confers:
> 
> ...


If you already know this, then stop lumping the two techs together. ST jutsu is a category of jutsus and it isn't even unique to Sasuke and his Rinnegan. Sasuke doesn't use the portal tech to use Ameno and vice versa. Out of the two Rinnegan ST techs that Sasuke has, Ameno is being discussed. You can't lumped the two together because they are not the same


Ganta said:


> Kamui actually has *one* aspect, not two, as it grants Obito and Kakashi connection to *one* time-space.
> 
> However, Obito and Kakashi could be considered using Kamui in a near-endless myriad of ways: phasing, warping, barrier ninjutsu and so forth


Kamui has two distinct aspects: phasing and sniping. 


Ganta said:


> *They are two different techniques*, yes, but both also use Sasuke's Rinnegan Jikukan as their base.


Full stop after bold. It doesn't matter if they use Sasuke's Rinnegan ST as base (whatever that means). They are two very different techs, so they can't be lumoed in together. The thread is about Ameno vs. FTG, not Sasuke's ST techs vs. Minato's techs, not Sasuke's ST techs vs. FTG, but Ameno vs. FTG. 


Ganta said:


> *Spoiler*: _O' rly?_


People bringing up Kamui doesn't change the purpose of the thread


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## sabre320 (Apr 5, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> That’s chicken or the egg because most often than not a Rinnegan user will
> Be far superior than someone who relies on FTG .


Thats a very terrible argument isnt it....we are comparing the techniques arent we.....you want to limit adult sasuke to nagatos feats because he is a rinnegan user? Hell bm minato would shit on nagato.....as i said give equal users ftg and he edges it in a long fight.


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 5, 2019)

sabre320 said:


> Thats a very terrible argument isnt it....we are comparing the techniques arent we.....you want to limit adult sasuke to nagatos feats because he is a rinnegan user? Hell bm minato would shit on nagato.....as i said give equal users ftg and he edges it in a long fight.



What does BM have to do with FTG and Nagato was limited by having his legs blown off and also by the fact his Rinnegan was planeted and still his feats against Bee & Naruto trump Minato with just FTG


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## sabre320 (Apr 6, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> What does BM have to do with FTG and Nagato was limited by having his legs blown off and also by the fact his Rinnegan was planeted and still his feats against Bee & Naruto trump Minato with just FTG


Jesus christ man you just said rinnegan users trump ftg users completely disregarding that users strengths matter. Bm minato is an ftg user and crushes nagato. The only rational way to compare techniques fairly is to have 2 equal fighters use it not say because adult sasuke is stronger then minato that means ameno is far superior because adult sasuke wouldnt even need ameno to beat minato.

Btw the comprison isnt between the rinnegan its only between ameno and ftg.


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## The Great One (Apr 6, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> FTG got stumped by Juubito , Ame stumped Fused Momoshiki you do the math


FTG was used by Minato who is <<<<< jubito.

Ameno was used by Sasuke who is < Momoshiki.

It's the user, not technique.

Also Ameno did not stomped Momo.
First time it was Naruto.




Second time was well



While minato.



With FTG Minato was able to beat Kamui user.




Don't forget that w/o FTG Raikage is way faster then Minato and kills him with a single punch.

Unlike Sasuke who can still react to Momo's speed physically.

Minato being able to fight Raikage with FTG is more impressive then... Someone he can't react physically.

Sasuke getting his ass kicked by Momo with Ameno... Someone he can react physically.

Do the math.


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 6, 2019)

sabre320 said:


> Jesus christ man you just said rinnegan users trump ftg users completely disregarding that users strengths matter. Bm minato is an ftg user and crushes nagato. The only rational way to compare techniques fairly is to have 2 equal fighters use it not say because adult sasuke is stronger then minato that means ameno is far superior because adult sasuke wouldnt even need ameno to beat minato.
> 
> Btw the comprison isnt between the rinnegan its only between ameno and ftg.



The problem with your comparison is that it’s invalid because we have seen even fodder Kage Guards can learn the FTG technique but anyone can’t gain a Rinnegan the fact Ame is a Rinnegan Technique disqualifies it from having two equal users Han FTG of someone has access to a Rinnegan they are by default a top tier Shinobi think for a second Sasuke’s sheer physical speed is enough to keep up with RSM Naruto who is even faster than FTG when used by Minato who is the most talented of FTG users despite his physical speed he still uses Ame in combat against higher tier characters than Juubito whom even the GOAT FTG user couldn’t touch now you say well what if you give Sasuke FTG then he’d Still be operating at a similar speed the dynamic of FTG is still primarily a close proximity ninjitsu where as Ame Just has more utility from a long-mid range distance .


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## Soul (Apr 6, 2019)

Hiraishin is better for most people, but Sasuke just happens to be one of the more creative and skilled CQC fighters in the manga, if not the absolute best.


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## Ganta (Apr 6, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> If you already know this, *then stop lumping the two techs together*.
> 
> ST jutsu is a category of jutsus and it isn't even unique to Sasuke and his Rinnegan.



 I'm about getting tired of this. No one is lumping them. Since they are ST techniques under his Rinnegan,  that's a common differentiating characteristic within a larger category.



UltimaDude said:


> Sasuke doesn't use the portal tech to use Ameno and vice versa


. 

 I just told you Amenotejikara is a precursor to two other spacetime ninjutsu his Rinnegan possess. If they're the same, I wouldn't have listed them as separate.




UltimaDude said:


> Out of the two Rinnegan ST techs that Sasuke has, Ameno is being discussed. *You can't lumped the two together because they are not the same*



I read this lumping yadda yadda again, and I'mma freaking lose it.



UltimaDude said:


> Kamui has two *distinct* aspects: phasing and sniping.



Nope, that is what wikia told y'all. If something is distinct, its nature is different from another thing that's alike. That's why Obito can't just tend to Kaguya's backyard without Sakura's help. 

Phasing and ranged Kamui is still one aspect by the time-space they share.



UltimaDude said:


> Full stop after bold.



Are you British? Then I owe you a full stop.



> It doesn't matter if they use Sasuke's Rinnegan ST as base (whatever that means). They are two very different techs, so they can't be lumoed in together. The thread is about Ameno vs. FTG, *not Sasuke's ST techs vs. Minato's techs*, not Sasuke's ST techs vs. FTG, but Ameno vs. FTG.




You can't talk about Sasuke's use of Amaterasu without mentioning Kagutsuchi.


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## X III (Apr 6, 2019)

Amenotejikara is a God Tier hax capable of swapping Jutsu/people apart and requires no markings (same reason why Minato placed Kamui above FTG) and has also shown to work with nothing but air when Sasuke warped Kaguya/Madara in front of him and Naruto, and when he warped to Kaguya in order to attempt Chidori, and when he blitzed Naruto's Kurama Avatar. It's above FTG decisively.


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## UltimaDude (Apr 6, 2019)

Ganta said:


> I'm about getting tired of this. No one is lumping them. Since they are ST techniques under his Rinnegan, that's a common differentiating characteristic within a larger category.


You clearly are since you brought up the portal tech in a discussion that's focusing on Ameno and FTG.


Ganta said:


> I just told you Amenotejikara is a precursor to two other spacetime ninjutsu his Rinnegan possess. If they're the same, I wouldn't have listed them as separate


Alright cool. Then don't bring up the portal tech in this discussion.


Ganta said:


> I read this lumping yadda yadda again, and I'mma freaking lose it.


And I keep on reading about Sasuke's supposed ST ability that somehow validates bringing up an irrelevant tech to this thread


Ganta said:


> Nope, that is what wikia told y'all. If something is distinct, its nature is different from another thing that's alike. That's why Obito can't just tend to Kaguya's backyard without Sakura's help.
> 
> Phasing and ranged Kamui is still one aspect of the time-space they share


It's not just in the wiki, it's in the manga. If something has two aspects to it. Two aspects =/= Two jutsus

Phasing and sniping are the two aspects of Kamui. Different aspects doesn't mean different jutsus


Ganta said:


> You can't talk about Sasuke's use of Amaterasu without mentioning Kagutsuchi.


Yes you can.


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## Ganta (Apr 7, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> You clearly are since you brought up the portal tech in a discussion that's focusing on Ameno and FTG.


I too, consider the portal separate, or at least different enough from  Amenotejikara to identify as something else, but his Rinnegan is the common denominator. Bringing up the portal doesn't detract from the discussion.




UltimaDude said:


> It's not just in the wiki, it's in the manga. If something has two aspects to it. Two aspects =/= Two jutsus
> 
> Phasing and sniping are the two aspects of Kamui. Different aspects doesn't mean different jutsus



 Brah, the jutsu to draw objects in and jutsu to phase is termed 'one jutsu', not aspect. See: chapter 596



> Yes you can.



Nope, note Shii's inner monologue: changing Amaterasu's chakra movement makes Sasuke better at it than Itachi.


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## UltimaDude (Apr 7, 2019)

Ganta said:


> I too, consider the portal separate, or at least different enough from Amenotejikara to identify as something else, but his Rinnegan is the common denominator. Bringing up the portal doesn't detract from the discussion.


So what if they both come from Sasuke's Rinnegan? They are still different techs. It doesn't warrant a mention of the portal tech in a discussion about Ameno and FTG. You brought up the portal tech to make it seem that Ameno is better than FTG. Doing that does indeed detract from the discussion.


Ganta said:


> Brah, the jutsu to draw objects in and jutsu to phase is termed 'one jutsu', not aspect. See: chapter 596


Phasing and sniping are two aspects of Kamui. It's not that hard to understand


Ganta said:


> Nope, note Shii's inner monologue: changing Amaterasu's chakra movement makes Sasuke better at it than Itachi.


Amateratsu is just spawning the black flames. While, Kagutsuchi is manipulating the black flames. You can talk about Sasuke's use of Amateratsu without talking about his use of Kagutsuchi.


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## Ganta (Apr 8, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> They are still different techs. It doesn't warrant a mention of the portal tech in a discussion about Ameno and FTG. *You brought up the portal tech to make it seem that Ameno is better than FTG*. Doing that does indeed detract from the discussion.



 I brought up the wormhole to bolster the point that Sasuke's ST power-set is better. 
Who would be much worse off in Kaguya's backyard? Minato with no wormhole to escape? Or would Sasuke be cheating by wormholing, since you limit him to Amenotejikara?

There's a middle-ground case regarding this, so don't hate the ST pimp, hate the Rinnegan.





UltimaDude said:


> Phasing and sniping are two aspects of Kamui. It's not that hard to understand


There's no such thing as two aspects of Kamui, I done told you that Kamui can be used in a near-endless myraid of ways, *and yet..* Kakashi says...







UltimaDude said:


> Amateratsu is just spawning the black flames. While, Kagutsuchi is manipulating the black flames. You can talk about Sasuke's use of Amateratsu without talking about his use of Kagutsuchi.




 Kagutsuchi not only controls it. It actually generates the same type of black flame as Amaterasu but the range and scale are much lower when not used through the Susanoo. So it is a fused two-piece unit of both.

Shii states: it's _"the technique of changing the shape of Amaterasu"_ 
Databook's RAW gives a more concise description: _"the technique of adding shape change to Amaterasu"_(=of pre-existing and Kagutsuchi-generated ones).

Where can we confirm the truth of that assertion made in the Databook? The answer is the giant-ass  Amaterasu orb on Susanoo's hand; flames not produced at the focal point of Sasuke's vision.


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## UltimaDude (Apr 8, 2019)

Ganta said:


> I brought up the wormhole to bolster the point that Sasuke's ST power-set is better.
> Who would be much worse off in Kaguya's backyard? Minato with no wormhole to escape? Or would Sasuke be cheating by wormholing, since you limit him to Amenotejikara?
> 
> There's a middle-ground case regarding this, so don't hate the ST pimp, hate the Rinnegan.


For the last time, the discussion is not about Sasuke's ST techs vs. Minato's ST techs. It's strictly about Ameno vs. FTG. The portal tech has no baring in this discussion regardless of how you think it relates to Ameno. Ameno and the portal tech aren't inseparable.


Ganta said:


> There's no such thing as two aspects of Kamui, I done told you that Kamui can be used in a near-endless myraid of ways, *and yet..* Kakashi says...


Do you not know what aspects are? An aspect is a part of something. Phasing and sniping are parts of Kamui, meaning they are the two aspects. It's not that hard to understand


Ganta said:


> Kagutsuchi not only controls it. It actually generates the same type of black flame as Amaterasu but the range and scale are much lower when not used through the Susanoo. So it is a fused two-piece unit of both.
> 
> Shii states: it's _"the technique of changing the shape of Amaterasu"_
> Databook's RAW gives a more concise description: _"the technique of adding shape change to Amaterasu"_(=of pre-existing and Kagutsuchi-generated ones).
> ...


Bold is exactly what Amateratsu is. Thus, you can talk about Sasuke's use of Amateratsu without mentioning Kagutsuchi


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## Ganta (Apr 9, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> For the last time, *the discussion is not about Sasuke's ST techs vs. Minato's ST techs*. *It's strictly about Ameno vs. FTG*.



 That's a mind bender. You're saying it's not about Sasuke's vs Minato's Space-Time tech*s*, yet FTG is the sum total of Minato's Space-Time tech*s*. See how the word _strictly_ is not very _strict_?




UltimaDude said:


> An aspect is a part of something. Phasing and sniping are parts of Kamui, meaning they are the two aspects. It's not that hard to understand



Forget wikia's loose use of the word 'aspect'. Phasing and ranged are *not* two aspects of Kamui, they ARE Kamui: As Kakashi reasoned, *one single jutsu* used differently.




UltimaDude said:


> Bold is exactly what Amateratsu is. Thus, you can talk about Sasuke's use of Amateratsu without mentioning Kagutsuchi



Nope, the bold is one way to channel Amaterasu, not what Amaterasu is.
Casting Amaterasu break down like this: *"*_the_ eye's focal point; Kagutsuchi; and Susanoo*"*.


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## UltimaDude (Apr 9, 2019)

Ganta said:


> That's a mind bender. You're saying it's not about Sasuke's vs Minato's Space-Time tech*s*, yet FTG is the sum total of Minato's Space-Time tech*s*. See how the word _strictly_ is not very _strict_?


FTG isn't the only ST tech Minato has. He also has summoning. Even if FTG is the only ST tech he has, the discussion is still about Ameno vs. FTG. I don't see how you're not understanding this


Ganta said:


> Forget wikia's loose use of the word 'aspect'. Phasing and ranged are *not* two aspects of Kamui, they ARE Kamui: As Kakashi reasoned, *one single jutsu* used differently.


The word aspect isn't even in the wiki. Phasing and sniping are two aspects of Kamui. That doesn't contradict the notion of them being Kamui. An aspect is a part of something, this is common sense. 


Ganta said:


> Nope, the bold is one way to channel Amaterasu, not what Amaterasu is.
> Casting Amaterasu break down like this: *"*_the_ eye's focal point; Kagutsuchi; and Susanoo*"*.


No, it's Amaterasu. Kagutsuchi is manipulating the black flames.


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## Ganta (Apr 9, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> FTG isn't the only ST tech Minato has. *He also has summoning*.
> 
> Even if FTG is the only ST tech he has, the discussion is still about Ameno vs. FTG. I don't see how you're not understanding this



So does Sasuke. Technicality is screwing you, fam 



UltimaDude said:


> The word aspect isn't even in the wiki



until it wasn't. It used to be.



UltimaDude said:


> *Phasing and sniping are two aspects of Kamui*. That doesn't contradict the notion of them being Kamui. An aspect is a part of something, *this is common sense*.



That would be nonsense rather than common sense.  

Again, Chapter 596?




UltimaDude said:


> No, it's Amaterasu. *Kagutsuchi is manipulating the black flames*.





Is the orb of flame on Susanoo's hand Amaterasu? *Y*es
Was it produced at the focal point of Sasuke? *N*o

Thus Kagutsuchi not only manipulates Amaterasu but also creates it.


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 9, 2019)

raikiri & chidori R the same jutsu


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## UltimaDude (Apr 9, 2019)

Ganta said:


> So does Sasuke. Technicality is screwing you, fam


And are the character's summoning techs being considered in a discussion about Ameno vs. FTG? No, it isn't.

Technicality is not screwing me, you are just being disingenuous


Ganta said:


> until it wasn't. It used to be.


Hmm, interesting


Ganta said:


> That would be nonsense rather than common sense.
> 
> Again, Chapter 596?


No, it's common sense. The only reason why it's nonsense to you is because you don't understand the definition of aspect

What Kakashi said, in no way whatsoever, disprove Kamui having two aspects. The entire chapter is about realizing that sniping and phasing are two aspects of Kamui


Ganta said:


> Is the orb of flame on Susanoo's hand Amaterasu? *Y*es
> Was it produced at the focal point of Sasuke? *N*o
> 
> Thus Kagutsuchi not only manipulates Amaterasu but also creates it


The orb of flames is not Amaterasu, it's just an orb of black flames. Amaterasu is the production of the flames at the focal point. Kagutsuchi is the manipulation of the flames. Not that hard to understand


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## kayz (Apr 9, 2019)

Where did people actually get this Ameno has a cool down?

The question is "was Sasuke referring to the Ameno tech directly or his Rinnegan power in general?". I remember he used his rinnegan alot on other jutsu as well


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## Ganta (Apr 10, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> And are the character's summoning techs being considered in a discussion about Ameno vs. FTG? *No, it isn't*.



Agreed, Summoning Arts aren't the discussion. Going directly from point A to point C without Summoning is; A feat allowed in Hiraishin no jutsu and Sasuke's Space/Time Dojutsu.  



UltimaDude said:


> Hmm, interesting



Yep, that article brainwashed you well. This is where wikia flagged up the idea of *aspect* to your head. I think yo' ignoramus just forgot. 



Source link: 




UltimaDude said:


> No, it's common sense. The only reason why it's nonsense to you is because you don't understand the definition of aspect
> 
> What Kakashi said, in no way whatsoever, disprove Kamui having two aspects. *The entire chapter is about realizing that sniping and phasing are two aspects of Kamui*



_"The jutsu that he uses to suck things in (and, by extension, of Kakashi's Kamui jutsu) and the one where he slips through objects are both teleportation jutsu".. _Unless you think Obito's kamui has two aspects as well, not counting Kakashi's Kamui. 



UltimaDude said:


> The orb of flames is not Amaterasu, it's just an orb of black flames.


Yes, better to just forget the black orb is the flames of Amaterasu like a simpleton*. 
*
@BlinkST @Platypus @Klue @Rai @Seelentau @Arthas @Callen  I'mma start cussing dis dude mama if y'all don't check him. Believe this guy?


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## UltimaDude (Apr 10, 2019)

Ganta said:


> Agreed, Summoning Arts aren't the discussion. Going directly from point A to point C without Summoning is; A feat allowed in Hiraishin no jutsu and Sasuke's Space/Time Dojutsu


And here you go again, trying to blur the clear distinction of Ameno and the portal tech.


Ganta said:


> Yep, that article brainwashed you well. This is where wikia flagged up the idea of *aspect* to your head. I think yo' ignoramus just forgot.


I didn't even read the article. Stop being so dumb. Look up what the word aspect mean


Ganta said:


> _"The jutsu that he uses to suck things in (and, by extension, of Kakashi's Kamui jutsu) and the one where he slips through objects are both teleportation jutsu".. _Unless you think Obito's kamui has two aspects as well, not counting Kakashi's Kamui.


And that was not the main idea of the chapter

*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 




*Link Removed* 



I don't understand why you're so opposed to the idea that Kamui has different aspects. Different aspects =/= Different jutsus


Ganta said:


> Yes, better to just forget the black orb is the flames of Amaterasu like a simpleton*. *


Amaterasu is the technique of producing the black flames at the focal point. So it's inaccurate to refer to the orb as Amaterasu. There's obsolutely no need to be an ass.


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## Seelentau (Apr 11, 2019)

uuuuhhh... what's the point of contention here?


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## Ganta (Apr 11, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> And here you go again, trying to blur the clear distinction of Ameno and the portal tech.


The wormhole and Amenotejikara are Sasuke's Space/Time Dojutsu*s*, not counting Kuchiyose Rinnegan, much like Hiraishin no jutsu is the sum total of Minato's Space/Time Ninjutsu, not counting Kuchiyose. How is that blurry?  



UltimaDude said:


> I didn't even read the article


you are seriously fucking up .

*Spoiler*: __ 





UltimaDude said:


> The word aspect isn't even in the wiki








UltimaDude said:


> Stop being so dumb.



Just because I dumb things down for you doesn't mean I am though. 



UltimaDude said:


> Look up what the word aspect mean


Forget the aspect, beware your ignoramus. 



UltimaDude said:


> And that was not the *main idea* of the chapter
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



I wrote an idea? Or I wrote Kakashi's line verbatim 




UltimaDude said:


> *Amaterasu is the technique of producing the black flames* at the focal point. So it's inaccurate to refer to the orb as Amaterasu. There's obsolutely no need to be an ass.



Amaterasu is the technique of producing *the black flames*(*=Amaterasu also*) 



Seelentau said:


> uuuuhhh... what's the point of contention here?



It's Ultimadude, he's high from sniffing a bad batch of something.


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## Seelentau (Apr 11, 2019)

I dunno what to say. Amaterasu produces the black flames, Kagutsuchi does so as well. Kagutsuchi can shape them, Amaterasu is more of a wildfire use.

How's that even debatable? The manga's been over since 014, shouldn't all these questions be answered by now? Damn guys.


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## UltimaDude (Apr 11, 2019)

Ganta said:


> The wormhole and Amenotejikara are Sasuke's Space/Time Dojutsu*s*, not counting Kuchiyose Rinnegan, much like Hiraishin no jutsu is the sum total of Minato's Space/Time Ninjutsu, not counting Kuchiyose. How is that blurry?


But the discussion is not about Sasuke's ST techs vs. Minato ST techs. It's strictly about Ameno vs. FTG. The portal tech is completely irrelevant as it's not Ameno. So yes, you are being blurry


Ganta said:


> you are seriously fucking up


I just assumed that it wasn't. 


Ganta said:


> Forget the aspect, beware your ignoramus


And here we have the pot calling the kettle black


Ganta said:


> I wrote an idea? Or I wrote Kakashi's line verbatim


Kakashi's line wasn't the main focus of the chapter


Ganta said:


> Amaterasu is the technique of producing *the black flames*


The black flames isn't called Amaterasu. Unless, you are telling me that Amaterasu produces Amatetasu


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## UltimaDude (Apr 11, 2019)

Seelentau said:


> I dunno what to say. Amaterasu produces the black flames, Kagutsuchi does so as well. Kagutsuchi can shape them, Amaterasu is more of a wildfire use.
> 
> How's that even debatable? The manga's been over since 014, shouldn't all these questions be answered by now? Damn guys.


The dense boi says that the black flames themselves is called Amaterasu. I was just saying that the name Amaterasu only refers to the technique that produces the flames at the focal point. 

Hey, man. Don't blame me, blame the idiot who is being difficult


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## Seelentau (Apr 12, 2019)

The databook says "A ninjutsu where form manipulation is added to the never disappearing immortal flames that are 'Amaterasu'".

So yes, the flames and the technique to conjure them are both called "Amaterasu". But that's nothing unusual, really. After all, both the dojutsu as well as the kekkei genkai are called "Sharingan".


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## UltimaDude (Apr 12, 2019)

Seelentau said:


> The databook says "A ninjutsu where form manipulation is added to the never disappearing immortal flames that are 'Amaterasu'".


Well sheeeeeeeeeeeet

Wouldn't you say that phasing and sniping are two aspects of Kamui?


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## Ganta (Apr 12, 2019)

Even with my fucked-up AT&T signal, this nut is making me exceed my 15 minute mark per day here. 



UltimaDude said:


> But the discussion is not about Sasuke's ST techs vs. Minato ST techs. It's strictly about Ameno vs. FTG. The portal tech is completely irrelevant as it's not Ameno. So yes, *you are being blurry*



rinse your eyes with salt water.



UltimaDude said:


> I just assumed that it wasn't.



Your brain remembers everything, but the connections to those memories fail. You read about *aspect* on wikia. 



UltimaDude said:


> And here we have the pot calling the kettle black



I think the kettle just admitted to his own ignoramus



UltimaDude said:


> Kakashi's line wasn't the main focus of the chapter



Chapter 596 is called "*O*ne Single Jutsu".  In relation to Obito, Kakashi similarly say so. Hence why *t* immediately follows on the heels of chapter 596.

If phasing/absorption are two _"aspects"_ of Obito's Kamui jutsu, then you are asserting a third aspect by adding Kakashi's Kamui jutsu. I can't dumb this any lower for you, brah. Keep up. 



UltimaDude said:


> The black flames isn't called Amaterasu.



@Rai @BlinkST @Klue @Callen @Platypus @Arthas Y'all heard? The black flames are NOT _"*A*materasu flames"_.  Someone need to commit this guy to an institution.



UltimaDude said:


> Unless, you are telling me that Amaterasu produces Amatetasu



*I* don't tell, I straight roast stupid people. 

What did Kakashi call black flames that Hinata saw?
*Spoiler*: __ 















Seelentau said:


> I dunno what to say. Amaterasu produces the black flames, *Kagutsuchi does so as well*. Kagutsuchi can shape them, Amaterasu is more of a wildfire use.



Everyone and they mama know except him.



Seelentau said:


> Amaterasu is more of a wildfire use.



I fucking agree. 天照の炎が発火直後から問答無用で燃え広がるのに対し、こちらは最初から術者の制御下に置かれ、燃やさず維持することが出来る


Seelentau said:


> The databook says "A ninjutsu where form manipulation is added to the never disappearing immortal flames that are 'Amaterasu'".
> 
> So yes, the flames and the technique to conjure them are both called "Amaterasu". But that's nothing unusual, really. After all, both the dojutsu as well as the kekkei genkai are called "Sharingan".



Guy's a wierdo. I told him him that already.


*Spoiler*: __ 






Ganta said:


> Kagutsuchi not only controls it. It actually generates the same type of black flame as Amaterasu but the range and scale are much lower when not used through the Susanoo. So it is a fused two-piece unit of both.
> 
> Shii states: it's _"the technique of changing the shape of Amaterasu"_
> *Databook's RAW* gives a more concise description: _"*the technique of adding shape change to Amaterasu"*_*(=of pre-existing and Kagutsuchi-generated ones)*








UltimaDude said:


> *Well sheeeeeeeeeeeet*
> 
> Wouldn't you say that phasing and sniping are two aspects of Kamui?



Don't be hard on yourself. It's not like I dubbed you "intolerably stupid" for missing the hint for so long. 


​


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## Seelentau (Apr 12, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> Well sheeeeeeeeeeeet
> 
> Wouldn't you say that phasing and sniping are two aspects of Kamui?



Personally, I don't care. Just go by the databooks, should answer most of these things:
"Furthermore, there's a subtle difference in the powers of the left and right eyes."
One technique, two powers.


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## UltimaDude (Apr 12, 2019)

Ganta said:


> Even with my fucked-up AT&T signal, this nut is making me exceed my 15 minute mark per day here.


No one is making you do anything


Ganta said:


> Your brain remembers everything, but the connections to those memories fail. You read about *aspect* on wikia.


Except that I didn't. I just know what words mean, unlike you


Ganta said:


> I think the kettle just admitted to his own ignoramus


It's ignorance. You can't call anyone ignorant while you youraelf are being ignorant


Ganta said:


> Chapter 596 is called "*O*ne Single Jutsu". In relation to Obito, Kakashi similarly say so. Hence why *t* immediately follows on the heels of chapter 596.
> 
> If phasing/absorption are two _"aspects"_ of Obito's Kamui jutsu, then you are asserting a third aspect by adding Kakashi's Kamui jutsu. I can't dumb this any lower for you, brah. Keep up.


Nothing in the chapter debunks that phasing and sniping are two aspects of Kamui. Different aspects =/= Different jutsus. One single thing can have many aspects

I never said that sniping and phasing are the only aspects of Kamui

I'll concede in regard to the flames being called Amaterasu. But, I never denied that Kagutsuchi produces the flames. You can still distinguish the Amaterasu technique from Kagutsuchi. You can mention one without the other.

You don't even have room to insult me whatsoever since you can't seem to understand that the portal technique is completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread. Stop spewing BS to justify bringing it up


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## Ganta (Apr 13, 2019)

Seelentau said:


> The databook says "A ninjutsu where form manipulation is added to the never disappearing immortal flames that are 'Amaterasu'".
> 
> So yes, the flames and the technique to conjure them are both called "Amaterasu"*. But that's nothing unusual*, really. After all, both the dojutsu as well as the kekkei genkai are called "Sharingan".



Exactly, most technique-name is the container of meaning, and descriptive names ascribe to the technique-- a characteristic.




UltimaDude said:


> No one is making you do anything



Wait, you answered to _"nut"_ even though I didn't mean you? 



UltimaDude said:


> Except that I didn't. I just know what word*s* mean, unlike you



I know you know 



UltimaDude said:


> It's ignorance. *You can't call anyone ignorant while you youraelf are being ignorant*



unless I want to.  



UltimaDude said:


> Nothing in the chapter debunks that phasing and sniping are two aspects of Kamui. Different aspects =/= Different jutsus. One single thing can have many aspects
> 
> I never said that *sniping* and *phasing* are the only aspects of Kamui



A phasing _"aspect"_
A sniping _"aspect"_
An absorption _"aspect"_​
They're a kind of a mesh, not aspects. Hence why two simultaneous Kamui operation can *not* be done with a single eye, like Obito's phasing and absorption. Also, the nature of the _Kamui-warps_ depends on the user wielding Obito's eye, not the eye itself.

A reveal that led to Kakashi becoming able to teleport himself
*Spoiler*: __ 










For his part, Obito's resolve allowed for ranged Kamui with the eye he normally uses to phase.

*Spoiler*: __ 













> You don't even have room to insult me whatsoever since you can't seem to understand that the portal technique is completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread. Stop spewing BS to justify bringing it up



Sasuke's Rinnegan ST are two distinct techniques like you say, the first is Amentejikara and the second is expressed by how he opens his own personal wormhole from one dimension to another. If Hiraishin Dorai is Sasuke's analog of the portal, then it's not completely irrelevant.


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## UltimaDude (Apr 13, 2019)

Ganta said:


> A phasing _"aspect"_
> A sniping _"aspect"_
> An absorption _"aspect"_
> They're a kind of a mesh, not aspects. Hence why two simultaneous Kamui operation can *not* be done with a single eye, like Obito's phasing and absorption. Also, the nature of the _Kamui-warps_ depends on the user wielding Obito's eye, not the eye itself.
> ...


Nothing you say here changes the fact that Kamui has aspects to it. Sniping and phasing are completely distinct from one another and was originally thought to be 2 different jutsus altogether. Aspects mean parts. Are there not parts to Kamui?


Ganta said:


> Sasuke's Rinnegan ST are two distinct techniques like you say, the first is Amentejikara and the second is expressed by how he opens his own personal wormhole from one dimension to another. *If Hiraishin Dorai is Sasuke's analog of the portal, then it's not completely irrelevant.*


@Bold. It's not, so it is completely irrelevant. Especially since guiding thunder is derived from FTG. Therefore, Guiding thunder is still FTG, while the portal tech is still not Ameno


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## Ganta (Apr 14, 2019)

UltimaDude said:


> *Nothing* you say here *doesn't* change the fact that Kamui has aspects to it.


 double negative, you oxymoron.




> Aspects mean parts. *Are there not parts to Kamui*?



Nope, aspects are not something Kamui has but it's fine if that's how you understand it. 

Both the terms "phase" and "snipe", are used by us in relation to the travel method.

To say _aspects,_ usually implies some key properties, namely its distorting effect, required for Kamui's operation.

For instance, rather than a _Kamui jump,_ an aspect of Kamui was applied to Bakufu Ranbu.




> @Bold. It's not, so it is completely irrelevant. *Especially since guiding thunder is derived from FTG. Therefore, Guiding thunder is still FTG*, while the portal tech is still not Ameno



And in this back-and-forth of ours, a Rinnegan utilizing *two* Space/Time techniques equates to cheat-code?


----------



## UltimaDude (Apr 14, 2019)

Ganta said:


> Nope, aspects are not something Kamui has but it's fine if that's how you understand it.
> 
> Both the terms "phase" and "snipe", are used by us in relation to the travel method.
> 
> ...


Whatever floats your boat.


Ganta said:


> And in this back-and-forth of ours, a Rinnegan utilizing *two* Space/Time techniques equates to cheat-code?


Said techniques are not one and the same. Ameno is what's being discussed, not the portal tech. Therefore, the latter is irrelevant and has no place in this dicussion. Not that hard to understand


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 14, 2019)

ATastyMuffin said:


> VOTE2
> 
> Rinnegan Sasuke was not physically buffed.



He had Senjutsu Hashirama cells pumped into him whilst containing Juugo's cells. He had a Senjutsu buff, that's why he was able to create the Senjutsu Chidori (black Chidori), fight Juubi Jin without having his jutsu fodderised, move so fast he blitzed a JJ superior to Juubito who he barely kept up with and how he was able to sense NE.


----------

