# How strong is jiraiya, weakest that defeats him, strongest he defeats?



## Ishmael (Feb 23, 2017)

Just how strong was the toad sage?? Is he stronger then others think or weaker them most give him credit for? 

Where does he rank in the narutoverse? 

Knowledge~ full for weakest that defeats him, none for strongest he defeats.
Location~ Grass fields 
Distance~ 25M
Restrictions~ yomi numa


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## Bonly (Feb 23, 2017)

I'd say that Jiraiya is at the bottom of High Kage lvl along the rest of the Sannin right below Sage Mode Naruto and Sage Mode Kabuto(no Edo). As for who's the strongest he can beat I'd say that he's got a good shot against Tobi while the weakest I see having a good shot against Jiraiya would be Danzo.


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## Suoh (Feb 23, 2017)

I view him as a Mid Mid Kage along with the other Sannin, the Masters, Ei, and Onoki. If Jiraiya has to start in base then i could see Diedara or Kisame having a decent chance of beating him and the strongest he beats is Danzo. If he has the luxury of starting in SM then its Kage Summit Naruto (weakest) and Pein maybe


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## Gohara (Feb 24, 2017)

Around Nagato's level of power in my opinion as Nagato states that a fair match up between them can go either way.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 24, 2017)

He's the strongest mid kage level in SM once he got sage sensing, danger sense and frog kata.

Weakest that defeats him is naturally one of the weakest high kage levels - Danzo via Koto.

Strongest SM Jiraiya beats is Onoki, the weakest high kage level, but he's ranked higher because of his support abilities, his performance being head and shoulders above any other Gokage in the war arc, his 60 years of shinobi experience and 50 years of top-tier (kage access) knowledge.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 24, 2017)

Answer to both is Itachi imho

Actually, Danzo might be capable of taking Jman down, and i view danzo as weaker than Itachi

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 24, 2017)

The weakest he'd lose to is Orochimaru while the strongest he defeats is Onoki, Muu, Hiruzen, Sasori, and Tsunade.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Troyse22 (Feb 24, 2017)

Gohara said:


> Around Nagato's level of power in my opinion as Nagato states that a fair match up between them can go either way.



Explained why this is wrong twice to you.

Reported and ignored.

OT: Weakest that defeats SM Jiraiya is probably War Arc Sakura.

Strongest he can beat is maybe Orochimaru with P2 ET Restricted.

He doesn't beat any Uchiha, unless he has plot armor.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 24, 2017)

I think the strongest he defeats soundly is Itachi weakest that beats him is maybe Sandaime Raikage depending on how black lightining would by pass Sage Mode


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## Duhul10 (Feb 24, 2017)

the answer might be Itachi for both, yet with full knowledge he could probably also defeat pain ( if the latter is far away from the real one and if Jiraiya can actually tank those big ST's) as per canon statement. Nevermind, with CST his chances decrease heavily.


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## Ishmael (Feb 24, 2017)

Gohara said:


> Around Nagato's level of power in my opinion as Nagato states that a fair match up between them can go either way.



I don't see how people can say jiraiya beats pein if he had known the paths abilities that he faced during his first fight with them it would only be about what 3-4 there's 6 bodies. 

Jiraiya didn't face deva at all so to say he beats them is bs and what pein said was out of respect.

 3 paths pressured him in sm and his summons are worthless if pein thinks deva is needed to fight jiraiya.

He's nowhere near nagato especially a fully mobile nagato.


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## Ishmael (Feb 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Explained why this is wrong twice to you.
> 
> Reported and ignored.
> 
> ...



Sakurawhat the hell??? Yomi numa GG and he has a way better Arsenal to deal with her.

War arc Sakura was legit a nurse for the war and barely did anything significant outside of healing others.


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## Android (Feb 24, 2017)

Strongest he beats is Pain or Itachi.
Weakest that could beat him is Itachi or SM Naruto or MS Sasuke.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 3


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## Platypus (Feb 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Explained why this is wrong twice to you.
> 
> Reported and ignored.


Yeah, on that note, stop reporting shit if it's just people saying things you disagree with or have argued against in the past. That is not "trolling."

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Trojan (Feb 24, 2017)

The strongest he has a chance of defeating is probably Pain.
I view Jiraiya stronger than most of the Kages (besides Naruto, Minato, and Hashirama). He is stronger than the Akatsuki as well
(besides Nagato, Obito, and pain).

The weakest that MIGHT defeat him is probably itachi.


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## Icegaze (Feb 24, 2017)

weakest that beats him would be itachi 
strongest he beats orochimaru


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## JiraiyaFlash (Feb 24, 2017)

*How Strong He is ? *

Without SM -> Mid Kage (but not top of it)
With non-retconned SM -> High Section of Mid Kage
With retconned SM -> Bottom of High Kage.
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*Stongest he can defeat:*

Without SM -> Elder Kages like Muu, Onoki, Gengetsu and new comers like Gaara, Mei, 4th Raikage.. He is also can beat sick Itachi too. (Mu and Ônoki are the toughest opponents but ı can see him dominatin them), and any akatsuki member except 3 dojutsu user. Masters and like that. Danzo (w/o koto),etc,etc.

With non-retconned SM -> Itachi, Pain (with ext diff), Tobirama (high again), Killer Bee, Old Hiruzen, 3rd Raikage

With retconned buffed SM -> Minato, MS Obito (w/o Izanagi or any second eye) but these are debatable nothing sure.. But at the end if we talking about posibilities Jiraiya with ghost punch and senses w/o barriers would be a trouble for bboth Minato and Obito and maybe War-Arc SM Naruto too but these are represent the limits of Jiraiya  .. He might pull these chars off . Thats what ım saying ım not putting him higher than those 3.

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*Weakest who can defeat him:*

for Base Jiraiya -> Tsunade & Orochimaru are the weakest opponents whom can beat him due to huge knowledge about him. And counterable assets by other Sannin.

For non retconned SM Jiraiya -> Maybe Hiruzen and Tobirama but its hard or Pain with homefield advantage per canon or War-Arc SM Naruto

For Jiraiya with retconned SM -> Minato & Prime Hiruzen are the weakest who can beat Jiraiya with retconned SM. And Maybe Danzo due to Koto but this is a long shot.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Feb 24, 2017)

Weakest that beats him is the 4th Raikage. 


Strongest that he beats is probably SM Naruto.


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## Icegaze (Feb 24, 2017)

Would one consider Ay weaker than orochimaru?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Duhul10 (Feb 24, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Would one consider Ay weaker than orochimaru?



Portrayal-wise,  yes in my opinion. Feat-wise, he is quite countering raikage's speed with his resilience.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 24, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Would one consider Ay weaker than orochimaru?



 I most certainly would and that also hinges on how you view Hiruzen as well. If you view Hiruzen's depiction as the eminent kage in his old age to be legitimate, then Orochimaru would definitively be above Raikage in general.


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## Icegaze (Feb 24, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I most certainly would and that also hinges on how you view Hiruzen as well. If you view Hiruzen's depiction as the eminent kage in his old age to be legitimate, then Orochimaru would definitively be above Raikage in general.



I don't 
I feel that hiruzen hype was baseless really 
Kishi didn't expand enough on hiruzen for anyone to believe that

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Feb 24, 2017)

Read the OP -

Weakest that beats him (opponent has full knowledge while he has none)


Raikage with full knowledge is going to fuck Jiraiya up so hard. Jiraiya cannot counter the Raikage without full knowledge and significant distance. 



Can't believe some people are saying weakest that beats Jiraiya is Itachi. I'd REALLY love to see Itachi with full knowledge face Jiraiya who has no knowledge on him (Not that Jiraiya has any knowledge on Itachi to begin with). 

So many things wrong in this thread I feel sick.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Serene Grace (Feb 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> : Weakest that defeats *SM Jiraiya* is probably *War Arc Sakura*.


come on Troy

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Parallaxis (Feb 24, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> *Strongest he beats is* Pain or* Itachi.
> Weakest that could beat him is Itachi *or SM Naruto or MS Sasuke.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Ishmael (Feb 24, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> come on Troy



Exactly what I said lmao he's taking shit to a whole new level.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Android (Feb 24, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


>


What's wrong with that ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Feb 24, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> What's wrong with that ?






GuidingThunder said:


> *Strongest he beats is* Pain or* Itachi.
> Weakest that could beat him is Itachi *or SM Naruto or MS Sasuke.





> he beats Itachi





> Weakest that could beat him is Itachi




Or are you saying they are on the same general level so the battle could go either way?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Feb 24, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Or are you saying they are on the same general level so the battle could go either way?


Bravo !!!!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 3 | Informative 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 24, 2017)

The strongest Jiraiya could beat is Itachi or Pain (under specific circumstances), while the weakest that would defeat him is probably A.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Feb 24, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The strongest Jiraiya could beat is Itachi or Pain (under specific circumstances), while the weakest that would defeat him is probably A.





Fuck outta here Isaiah, Jiraiya isn't beating either Itachi OR Pain without any knowledge on their abilities. You're just wanking right now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 24, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Fuck outta here Isaiah, Jiraiya isn't beating either Itachi OR Pain without any knowledge on their abilities. You're just wanking right now.



 Yeah, he certainly doesn't have a chance in hell against Pain.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Ishmael (Feb 25, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Fuck outta here Isaiah, Jiraiya isn't beating either Itachi OR Pain without any knowledge on their abilities. You're just wanking right now.



I don't think peeps read the op tbh.


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## Android (Feb 25, 2017)

@Veracity , mind telling me why you *X* 'd my post ?

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Veracity (Feb 25, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> @Veracity , mind telling me why you *X* 'd my post ?


Cause I don't ever see Jirayia beating Pain under any scenario, thus I disagree.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Strongest he beats is Pain or Itachi.
> Weakest that could beat him is Itachi or SM Naruto or MS Sasuke.



 Yeah, strongest he beats happens to be Itachi and Pain yet MS Sasuke is somehow scot-free when he's a dumber and weaker version of Itachi? Yeah, they had every right to disagree with you, this logic is atrocious.


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## Anbu Knights (Feb 25, 2017)

Strongest that he can beat? All mid-high kage tiers; Gangetsu, Onoki, Mei, Sick Itachi...

Weakest: Sick Itachi or Danzo possibly.


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## Android (Feb 25, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Cause I don't ever see Jirayia beating Pain under any scenario, thus I disagree.


I see now ....


UchihaX28 said:


> Yeah, strongest he beats happens to be Itachi and Pain yet MS Sasuke is somehow scot-free when he's a dumber and weaker version of Itachi? Yeah, they had every right to disagree with you, this logic is atrocious.


What's wrong with saying MS Sasuke beats Jiraiya ?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> What's wrong with saying MS Sasuke beats Jiraiya ?



 What's wrong is saying Itachi loses yet a watered-down version of Itachi wins.


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## Android (Feb 25, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> What's wrong is saying Itachi loses yet a watered-down version of Itachi wins.


I view MS Sasuke with complete Susanoo and Itachi to be on the same lvl.
Also :


GuidingThunder said:


> Strongest he beats is Pain or Itachi.
> Weakest that could beat him is *Itachi* or SM Naruto or MS Sasuke.


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## Anbu Knights (Feb 25, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> What's wrong is saying Itachi loses yet a watered-down version of Itachi wins.



I'm not so sure that MS Sasuke is a watered down Itachi... as far as dojutsu is concerned, yes...but factoring in other aspects, not so much. 

Taijutsu/Kenjutsu/CQC at a similar level
Ninjutsu at a similar level
Shurikenjutsu at a similar level
Itachi's handseal speed is faster
Sasuke has the superior stamina
Itachi's probably faster by a trivial margin

but dojutsu excluded, they aren't too far apart.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2017)

Anbu Knights said:


> Taijutsu/Kenjutsu/CQC at a similar level



 Curious how you arrived to that conclusion when Itachi's Taijutsu score is not only 2 tiers greater than his, but he's also much faster than Sasuke.



> Ninjutsu at a similar level



 In terms of repertoire, sure. In terms of execution? Fat chance and his Susano'o takes a dump on Sasuke's, especially when Sasuke cannot maintain a V4 Susano'o and pales in comparison to Itachi's legendary weapons.



> Shurikenjutsu at a similar level



 Itachi blitzed a Rinnegan user with Shurikeninjutsu and easily contended with Sasuke in shurikeninjutsu in spite of Sasuke having summoning tags. This all while terminally ill and still managed to initiate a bunshin feint in the midst of it. Don't be dishonest, Itachi is far greater in this field.



> Itachi's handseal speed is faster



 Much faster.



> Sasuke has the superior stamina.



Doesn't matter. Sasuke immediately wavered the moment he attempted to maintain a V4 Susano'o whereas Itachi who was terminally ill and blind happened to have maintained his V4 Susano'o.



> Itachi's probably faster by a trivial margin



 Itachi responded to attacks that EMS Sasuke could not. He is significantly faster in this regard.



> but dojutsu excluded, they aren't too far apart.



 That's irrelevant since Dojutsu pertains to this topic.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> I view MS Sasuke with complete Susanoo and Itachi to be on the same lvl.
> Also :



 MS Sasuke can't even maintain Complete Susano'o and pales in comparison to Itachi who wields Legendary Weapons.


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## Android (Feb 25, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> MS Sasuke can't even maintain Complete Susano'o and pales in comparison to Itachi who wields Legendary Weapons.


That's like ...... your opinion


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> That's like ...... your opinion



 Nope, this is fact.


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## Android (Feb 25, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Nope, this is fact.


Sasuke maintained his Susanoo far longer than what Itachi ever did on panel .
Yes Itachi has Yata/Totsuka , Sasuke is superior in other things like Ninjutsu , firepower , Enton manipulation ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Sasuke maintained his Susanoo far longer than what Itachi ever did on panel .
> Yes Itachi has Yata/Totsuka , Sasuke is superior in other things like Ninjutsu , firepower , Enton manipulation ...



Because Itachi was terminally ill and blind, funny how you're going to resort to Argumentum ad Ignorantiam even though Itachi didn't have the luxury that Sasuke did to display such feats. Even so, Sasuke was staggered immediately upon activating V4 Susano'o in comparison to Itachi who maintained it long enough to defeat a Sannin in spite of being devoured by an insidious disease whilst being rendered permanently blind as well. Itachi's tolerance to the MS is far greater than Sasuke's, therefore, his ability to maintain and use it is far better than Sasuke's as well.

Sasuke has no feats of maintaining V4 Susano'o, so your logic suggests that he cannot use it in combat. Same goes for Enton Kagutsuchi which was not displayed until after he obtained the EMS.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Anbu Knights (Feb 25, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Curious how you arrived to that conclusion when Itachi's Taijutsu score is not only 2 tiers greater than his, but he's also much faster than Sasuke.



I took another glance at the fight between them, Itachi was overpowering Sasuke (even when he was armed), so I agree on this point.



UchihaX28 said:


> In terms of repertoire, sure. In terms of execution? Fat chance and his Susano'o takes a dump on Sasuke's, especially when Sasuke cannot maintain a V4 Susano'o and pales in comparison to Itachi's legendary weapons.



I was more or so referring to elemental ninjutsu. I've agreed that anything dojutsu related greatly lies in Itachi's favor.



UchihaX28 said:


> Itachi blitzed a Rinnegan user with Shurikeninjutsu and easily contended with Sasuke in shurikeninjutsu in spite of Sasuke having summoning tags. This all while terminally ill and still managed to initiate a bunshin feint in the midst of it. Don't be dishonest, Itachi is far greater in this field.



The source of Sasuke's shuriken may have helped in terms of weapon throwing speed (eliminating the time needed to draw and throw), but Sasuke, by his own ability was able to accurately clash with every single shuriken Itachi tossed. If the margin in shurikenjutsu skill was massive, it would have showed here.

can still provide him chakra





UchihaX28 said:


> Doesn't matter. Sasuke immediately wavered the moment he attempted to maintain a V4 Susano'o whereas Itachi who was terminally ill and blind happened to have maintained his V4 Susano'o.



Yes, agreed. Anything eye related is Itachi's ballpark, and this is eye related.




UchihaX28 said:


> Itachi responded to attacks that EMS Sasuke could not. He is significantly faster in this regard.



The clash between them doesn't depict Itachi to be so much faster then Sasuke that it would make a difference. As far as I can remember Sasuke was keeping pace and reacting just fine. Itachi is faster though.




UchihaX28 said:


> That's irrelevant since Dojutsu pertains to this topic.



The only thing I was trying to establish is that Sasuke is not a watered down version of his brother. Sasuke has other advantages and powers like Kirin, flight, etc... which Itachi cannot replicate.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 25, 2017)

Anbu Knights said:


> The source of Sasuke's shuriken may have helped in terms of weapon throwing speed (eliminating the time needed to draw and throw), but Sasuke, by his own ability was able to accurately clash with every single shuriken Itachi tossed. If the margin in shurikenjutsu skill was massive, it would have showed here.
> 
> can still provide him chakra




Itachi's vision was like this when he stalemated Sasuke with shurikens. The skill gap IS massive. If it wasn't massive, Itachi would have got wrecked with this vision against Sasuke's perfect vision. Not to mention the fact that Sasuke used summoning jutsu as well while Itachi was just countering it by using Sasuke's own shurikens.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 25, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Fuck outta here Isaiah, Jiraiya isn't beating either Itachi OR Pain without any knowledge on their abilities. You're just wanking right now.





La presagio said:


> Knowledge~ full for weakest that defeats him, none for strongest he defeats.


Actually, after reading the OP I will admit Itachi could potentially beat him now. But Itachi having full knowledge doesn't mean he can counter everything SM Jiraiya can do, so it's debatable and can go either way. Also, Pain having very low knowledge on Jiraiya is what made him underestimate him and cost him half his Paths at first. But even with a good amount of knowledge and all the Pains working together, one-armed SM Jiraiya managed to survive and escape with a single one of them that he defeated. The OP didn't state how much knowledge Jiraiya has, so it's safe to assume it's Manga and that means Jiraiya has a knowledge advantage while Pain knows absolutely nothing and has both arms. Meaning Pain would attack less seriously, against a serious SM Jiraiya, so there's a chance Jiraiya can win now considering he has even more advantages than what allowed him to potentially beat him the first time.

Note: If you're going to reply do so with an actual cohesive and non-aggressive fanboy argument as well.


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## Ishmael (Feb 25, 2017)

Dude got fucked by 3 paths and didn't even face deva.

I don't see jiraiya wining at all.... summons are shit and shared vision and a Bansho tennin plus soul rip is possible or chakra rod to a fatal area. Shinra tensei or CST (which would be overkill) and CT is beyond overkill since jiraiya has nothing to counter it.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 2


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Actually, after reading the OP I will admit Itachi could potentially beat him now. But Itachi having full knowledge doesn't mean he can counter everything SM Jiraiya can do, so it's debatable and can go either way. Also, Pain having very low knowledge on Jiraiya is what made him underestimate him and cost him half his Paths at first. But even with a good amount of knowledge and all the Pains working together, one-armed SM Jiraiya managed to survive and escape with a single one of them that he defeated. The OP didn't state how much knowledge Jiraiya has, so it's safe to assume it's Manga and that means Jiraiya has a knowledge advantage while Pain knows absolutely nothing and has both arms. Meaning Pain would attack less seriously, against a serious SM Jiraiya, so there's a chance Jiraiya can win now considering he has even more advantages than what allowed him to potentially beat him the first time.
> 
> Note: If you're going to reply do so with an actual cohesive and non-aggressive fanboy argument as well.



 That's irrelevant, Jiraiya still needed a more "discreet" location apt for Jiraiya's guerilla warfare in order to take advantage of the knowledge he acquired from battling Pain and this was against 3 Paths. You're truly aggrandizing Jiraiya's capabilities if you believe Jiraiya can win under these circumstances. SM Naruto was depicted as the ninja who had risen above his predecessors and accomplished something that was elusive for Jiraiya (mastery of Senjutsu) yet he still lost to Pain; not only under similar circumstances, but whilst battling more passively rather than aggressively and having depleted a lot of chakra before-hand as well.

 Jiraiya would never defeat Pain in a conceivable manner under this location. It is simply impossible.

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## Duhul10 (Feb 26, 2017)

La presagio said:


> Dude got fucked by 3 paths and didn't even face deva.
> 
> I don't see jiraiya wining at all.... summons are shit and shared vision and a Bansho tennin plus soul rip is possible or chakra rod to a fatal area. Shinra tensei or CST (which would be overkill) and CT is beyond overkill since jiraiya has nothing to counter it.



totally disagree with no offense. Fucked by 3 paths? Did that happen when he toyed with them in that corridor or before that ? Jiraiya would have got fucked against 3 rinnegan users, 3 wielders of god's eyes, not against 3 dead bodies having one power each. When he realized who he was facing actually, he came up with a plan and got rid of the paths silently without screams. CT needs Tendo to be close to Nagato and to turn off his other paths ( this one can be done though ). I will give you the CST part though, unless Jiraiya has knowledge on it, as he may be able to retreat inside his barrier while Tendo turns off the other paths.
If pain could've killed Jiraiya off with such an easy combo as bansho tennin+ chakra rod/ soul rip, why didn't he do it during their fight? Maybe he tried and failed. Remember Fukasaku explicitly stated that EACH of the pain paths only has a single power, which means he witnessed them all. Naruto also noticed that naraka was the one Fukasaku was talking about, when talking about reviving the other paths, which also means Fukasaku knew which one could revive.


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## Ishmael (Feb 26, 2017)

Duhul10 said:


> totally disagree with no offense. Fucked by 3 paths? Did that happen when he toyed with them in that corridor or before that ? Jiraiya would have got fucked against 3 rinnegan users, 3 wielders of god's eyes, not against 3 dead bodies having one power each. When he realized who he was facing actually, he came up with a plan and got rid of the paths silently without screams. CT needs Tendo to be close to Nagato and to turn off his other paths ( this one can be done though ). I will give you the CST part though, unless Jiraiya has knowledge on it, as he may be able to retreat inside his barrier while Tendo turns off the other paths.
> If pain could've killed Jiraiya off with such an easy combo as bansho tennin+ chakra rod/ soul rip, why didn't he do it during their fight? Maybe he tried and failed. Remember Fukasaku explicitly stated that EACH of the pain paths only has a single power, which means he witnessed them all. Naruto also noticed that naraka was the one Fukasaku was talking about, when talking about reviving the other paths, which also means Fukasaku knew which one could revive.



No. He didn't witness them all it became a common sense type thing once he realized that each of them were doing one unique thing.

This gets backed up when kakashi faces pein and realizes what his ability is once he uses Bansho tennein on him, jiraiya knew about the abilities of those he witnessed. Same as Fukasaku.

he also wasn't phased in any way, shape or form after losing his arm  kakashi doesn't have a flash back of fukasaku recalling the deva path during the time this happens because he had no knowledge on it at the time.

There's no tried and fail the fight had no off panel moments everytime it went off panel the next time it came back on they would resume from the same moment they left off

Fukasaku also made a good educated guess about the naraka path. he also wasn't phased in any way, shape or form after losing his arm He didn't witness shit was just a good educated guess.

As far as the why didn't he do it thing?... I don't know ask the writer.... not all the paths fought jiraiya the entire fight yes all six killed him with basically  but they didn't all go into combat with him

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## Turrin (Feb 26, 2017)

Nagato outright stated Jiriaya can beat Pain with the knowledge advantage and that appears to be what the opening is giving him here. So I'd say Nagato is the strongest he beats under these conditions. Weakest that beats him i'd say is Rusty-Hanzo. If Hanzo has full knowledge he'll take his mask off right away and if Jiraiya has none he will likely breath in the poison.

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## DaVizWiz (Feb 26, 2017)

Hanzo deliberately stated he doesn't take his mask off against stronger opponents.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 26, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> That's irrelevant, Jiraiya still needed a more "discreet" location apt for Jiraiya's guerilla warfare in order to take advantage of the knowledge he acquired from battling Pain and this was against 3 Paths. You're truly aggrandizing Jiraiya's capabilities if you believe Jiraiya can win under these circumstances. SM Naruto was depicted as the ninja who had risen above his predecessors and accomplished something that was elusive for Jiraiya (mastery of Senjutsu) yet he still lost to Pain; not only under similar circumstances, but whilst battling more passively rather than aggressively and having depleted a lot of chakra before-hand as well.
> 
> Jiraiya would never defeat Pain in a conceivable manner under this location. It is simply impossible.


 Honestly, I'm sick and tired of debating this with people. Nagato stated that Jiraiya could've defeated the Six Paths of Pain if he had known their secret, Jiraiya fought all six off-panel with one arm and managed to lure one away and defeat them, Obito states that Jiraiya being able to do that means he is truly deserving of his title and is a indication of his abilities, and Obito after taking one of Nagato's Rinnegan seems to bothered by the fact that Kabuto suggested reincarnating Jiraiya and Shisui Uchiha: indicating their strength. I do not care about the false interpretation of the Manga by the fanbase, Jiraiya is clearly much more powerful than people view him and can defeat Pain with enough knowledge on his capabilities. This is an undeniable Manga fact, that people need to get over and accept. This doesn't mean that Jiraiya is superior to Pain at all, simply that he is capable of defeating him under specific circumstances. 

The statement regarding Naruto surpassing his predecessors is also faulty, as it shows Minato as well and we all know Minato is well beyond both Jiraiya and Naruto at that point. So the logical conclusion is that it only meant Sage Mode mastery, not their overall capabilities anyway, and Jiraiya and Naruto fight differently and have almost completely different movesets with different abilities catered to different situations. So even if Naruto was stronger, Naruto's inability to defeat Pain doesn't automatically mean Jiraiya cannot do so.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 2


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## Parallaxis (Feb 26, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Honestly, I'm sick and tired of debating this with people. Nagato stated that Jiraiya could've defeated the Six Paths of Pain if he had known their secret, Jiraiya fought all six off-panel with one arm and managed to lure one away and defeat them, Obito states that Jiraiya being able to do that means he is truly deserving of his title and is a indication of his abilities, and Obito after taking one of Nagato's Rinnegan seems to bothered by the fact that Kabuto suggested reincarnating Jiraiya and Shisui Uchiha: indicating their strength. I do not care about the false interpretation of the Manga by the fanbase, Jiraiya is clearly much more powerful than people view him and can defeat Pain with enough knowledge on his capabilities. This is an undeniable Manga fact, that people need to get over and accept. This doesn't mean that Jiraiya is superior to Pain at all, simply that he is capable of defeating him under specific circumstances.
> 
> The statement regarding Naruto surpassing his predecessors is also faulty, as it shows Minato as well and we all know Minato is well beyond both Jiraiya and Naruto at that point. So the logical conclusion is that it only meant Sage Mode mastery, not their overall capabilities anyway, and Jiraiya and Naruto fight differently and have almost completely different movesets with different abilities catered to different situations. So even if Naruto was stronger, Naruto's inability to defeat Pain doesn't automatically mean Jiraiya cannot do so.


honestly
i wholeheartedly agree
its similar to the itachi vs obito


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Honestly, I'm sick and tired of debating this with people. Nagato stated that Jiraiya could've defeated the Six Paths of Pain if he had known their secret, Jiraiya fought all six off-panel with one arm and managed to lure one away and defeat them, Obito states that Jiraiya being able to do that means he is truly deserving of his title and is a indication of his abilities, and Obito after taking one of Nagato's Rinnegan seems to bothered by the fact that Kabuto suggested reincarnating Jiraiya and Shisui Uchiha: indicating their strength. I do not care about the false interpretation of the Manga by the fanbase, Jiraiya is clearly much more powerful than people view him and can defeat Pain with enough knowledge on his capabilities. This is an undeniable Manga fact, that people need to get over and accept. This doesn't mean that Jiraiya is superior to Pain at all, simply that he is capable of defeating him under specific circumstances.



We were also told that all of Orochimaru's jutsu are rendered useless in front of the Sharingan yet for some reason, you still controvert these statements in favor of your own head canon. I would be inclined to waver slightly had this been in a location reminiscent of Amegakure, but this is not the case. This is in an open battlefield where Jiraiya cannot tactically retreat and dismantle Paths like he did within the manga; he cannot efface himself in preparation for Frog Song nor can he hide within the ocean and lure a Path towards his barrier. In this regard, he is severely disadvantaged in comparison to what he was in the manga, so there's very little credence in Pain's statement. Furthermore, this is supported by Jiraiya losing to 3 Paths in broad daylight when refusing to take advantage of the location, so we have a firm idea of what Jiraiya can accomplish with the stipulations the OP has outlined and none of it shows that Jiraiya can compete with Pain.



> The statement regarding Naruto surpassing his predecessors is also faulty, as it shows Minato as well and we all know Minato is well beyond both Jiraiya and Naruto at that point. So the logical conclusion is that it only meant Sage Mode mastery, not their overall capabilities anyway, and Jiraiya and Naruto fight differently and have almost completely different movesets with different abilities catered to different situations. So even if Naruto was stronger, Naruto's inability to defeat Pain doesn't automatically mean Jiraiya cannot do so.



That would be the case had you not failed to take into consideration of how Minato acted as a benchmark for Naruto well after the conclusion of the Pain Arc. The premise of the situation dictates that Raikage obstinacy stemmed from Naruto being the successor of Minato who was condemned a failure and it was Naruto's duty to prove that he wasn't like his father and to prove that Naruto could succeed in areas that Minato did not by surpassing him. In comparison, the Pain Arc focused more on Naruto's relationship to Jiraiya, hence why Naruto was inspired by Jiraiya's gutsiness and strived to great lengths as Tsunade had believed he would in order to accomplish what Jiraiya could not. Clearly, we are told that Naruto would surpass Jiraiya. Minato was not the focal point of Naruto's zeal for power, but Jiraiya was.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> honestly
> i wholeheartedly agree
> its similar to the itachi vs obito



 Well you know, except Itachi doesn't have to prance around the battle-field to defeat Obito.


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## drew8324 (Feb 26, 2017)

La presagio said:


> I don't think peeps read the op tbh.


WhTs does "op" mean?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> WhTs does "op" mean?



 Opening post.

Reactions: Like 1


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## drew8324 (Feb 26, 2017)

Anbu Knights said:


> I'm not so sure that MS Sasuke is a watered down Itachi... as far as dojutsu is concerned, yes...but factoring in other aspects, not so much.
> 
> Taijutsu/Kenjutsu/CQC at a similar level
> Ninjutsu at a similar level
> ...


I'd say Sasuke better at Taijustu and its clear Itachi is the BEST shuriken-justu user we've seen in the series


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## drew8324 (Feb 27, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Curious how you arrived to that conclusion when Itachi's Taijutsu score is not only 2 tiers greater than his, but he's also much faster than Sasuke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Aye idk of you can count Sasuke V4 Susanoo feat during the Kage summit fight against Kakashi. Remeber he had fought Samurai, than tangled with the Raikage and Darui(who is easily High Akatsuki level) than fought Mei(man she is beautiful), attempted and almost successful murder by Tsuikage, than proceeds to have an extended Death Battle with Danzo. You still put it against him he could not activate a Susanoo in FULL power after having a depleted tank and fighting a Akatsuki lvl ninja like Kakashi. Also remeber Itachi had planned his fight with Sasuke since day 1 and was basically the only reason he was living for ALSO.... Itachi has used Susanoo before that was Sasuke's first day with the powers


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## drew8324 (Feb 27, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Sasuke maintained his Susanoo far longer than what Itachi ever did on panel .
> Yes Itachi has Yata/Totsuka , Sasuke is superior in other things like Ninjutsu , firepower , Enton manipulation ...


Amaterastu only work on like Kankuro level ninja as OHKO people like  Darui level should be able to dodge after witnessing once. Its really more like an assisting technique or a buffer. It never really does much outside of that


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## drew8324 (Feb 27, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Opening post.


Thank you


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## Gohara (Feb 27, 2017)

@ presagio.

I can see why Nagato might say something out of respect to Jiraiya, but I don't see why he would lie just to say something out of respect to Jiraiya when he could just say something like Jiraiya put up a good match up and/or is powerful.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 27, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> I'd say Sasuke better at Taijustu and its clear Itachi is the BEST shuriken-justu user we've seen in the series



Didn't you see Sasuke getting manhandled by Killer Bee and we later see Itachi dodging Bee?


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## Sapherosth (Feb 27, 2017)

Hmmmm

3 people were called invincible just several chapters apart. Must have been a coincidence on Kishi's part. 

Talk about portrayal.




Funny how when we talk about Itachi's hype they aren't valid because it's just simply not believable. However, when we talk about Jiraiya's hype about being able to defeat Pain, people quickly hop on that hype train without a second thought despite the fact that Jiraiya has no conceivable way of defeating Pain even with knowledge (Just like SM Naruto failed). 

Talk about hypocrites.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## drew8324 (Feb 27, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Didn't you see Sasuke getting manhandled by Killer Bee and we later see Itachi dodging Bee?



I didn't say superior physical strength and speed. I just said better Taijustu.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 27, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> I didn't say superior physical strength and speed. I just said better Taijustu.




That IS taijutsu.....

Sasuke has no feats of being better than Itachi in taijutsu at all.


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## drew8324 (Feb 27, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> That IS taijutsu.....
> 
> Sasuke has no feats of being better than Itachi in taijutsu at all.


Taijustu is form and technique physical stats are different thing. Why does Lee have a greater Taijustu stat than part 2. sasuke when his physical stats are lowered. Taijustu & Physical strengths are cohesive & correlates almost always but are still independent


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## Turrin (Feb 27, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Hanzo deliberately stated he doesn't take his mask off against stronger opponents.


This is incorrect. Hanzo does not say he never removes his mask against strong enemies, he simply says doing so comes with a Risk and that risk is even more dangerous against strong enemies.

Hanzo, "There are many times i've done so...but there's a risk"

Hanzo, "The one role of the mask...is protection from poison"

Hanzo, "Supposing the poison sack were to be cut in battle... in that case outside the body would flow raw poisonous fluid.... gas that can be breathed in would form from the vaporization of the poisonous liquid"

Hanzo, "That would result in immobilization even with my strong poison resistance"

Hanzo, "I wouldn't die, but it would give birth to a chink in my armor [weak-point]"

Hanzo, "All the more when the enemy is capable like you" - Note Hanzo is being respectful here

Hanzo, "I can't create such a chink in my armor [weak-point]"


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