# [Official] Tobi's identity thread - Part 1



## Mugivara (Nov 17, 2011)

*Who Tobi is?(theory)*



> *Saying that Tobi is Obito, doesn't have only one meaning;
> 
> Right... Obito is already dead but death actually means the separation of soul and body.
> 
> ...



 I don't know the rules here, so don't make fun of me


----------



## Madai (Nov 17, 2011)

This actually makes some sense.

If Danzo was really protecting Konoha's best interests, he would have not told Sasuke anything.  He would have said something about Sasuke being awash in Madara's lies, and nothing but a tool, and then proceeded to eliminate him.

Instead, he taunts Sasuke, makes sure sasuke gives him his crazy 100% best, and dies, *THUS furthering Tobi's goals of turning Sasuke against Konoha*.

--edit: Only problem is, Danzo's flashback.  Makes it look like he wasn't so much planning on dying.


----------



## Mugivara (Nov 17, 2011)

Danzo cares about the result.(I mean Tobi here) His real purpose is eternal peace under the Eternal Tsukiyomi. And, in order to achieve the real purpose, loses are negligible.


----------



## Almesiva Moonshadow (Nov 17, 2011)

You my friend, just turned out to be a bigger plot-troll then Kishimoto himself!


----------



## Madai (Nov 17, 2011)

If the flashback is real, Danzo and Tobi must be two different people with different goals.

One wanted to kill Sasuke, One had a chance to kill Sasuke in his sleep.

Losses are *not* negligible.  Tobi thinks he needs Sasuke, and has gone out of his way to keep Sasuke alive.


----------



## Mugivara (Nov 17, 2011)

*The Danzo that we've seen was just a clone. But not a simple clone... He was a clone that was made by Zetsu- "real Danzo" himself long time ago... Having his own body and conscious, "clon Danzo" has lived his own life, after his creation(like Hashirama clon)... That's why "clon Danzo" had same memory with real Danzo for his youth time. And that's why he had no idea about who Tobi is... Also Tobi had no idea about clon Danzo totally.. Danzo has just let Sasuke to play his old clon Danzo. It was a great plan...*

It's like it:respira


----------



## Madai (Nov 17, 2011)

Zetsu tells Tobi everything, so, sorry, you can't make this work.


----------



## Mugivara (Nov 17, 2011)

It's ok dude Just a theory


----------



## Mateush (Nov 26, 2011)

*My unique theory about Tobi*

*Don't see me as troll, because I'm deadly serious.*

First I want to tell you that Rikudo's real identity could be "Izanagi", because Izanagi was god-like from myths in Japenese. He had sister/wife "Izanami".

Tobi historically was Rikudo's sister, basically Izanami, later after she "died" then she turned into Juubi. Rikudo (Izanagi) stubbornly didn't listen warnings by her and was shocked when he saw hers new look. Then he decided to lock that monster in the moon. 

Original Izanami created islands (countries and hidden villages) and gods (Juubi, Enma, Slug, Manda, Toads and more).

It's why Tobi's not happy to see all idiots destroying all hers creations. It's why Tobi calls himself or herself "No one", since Izanami changes form all times. And that Rinnegan belgoned to her, since she created gods and Rikudo got the eyes as gift.

It would be Naruto's insane (interesting) twist.

sources:


----------



## OneHitKill (Nov 26, 2011)

And it would explain why the bitch wears a mask, cause she ugly :sanji


Tobi is Mito


----------



## Mateush (Nov 26, 2011)

OneHitKill said:


> And it would explain why the bitch wears a mask, cause she ugly :sanji
> 
> 
> Tobi is Mito



Haha, who knows...

Well, my point is that 90% in Naruto based on myths in Japan. Kishi's ideas are *not* original, therefore likely that Rikudo - Tobi = Izanagi - Izanami.


Google random Naruto names or weapons or jutsus, then you will understand what I mean (I'm assuming if you don't have that knowledge).


----------



## OneHitKill (Nov 26, 2011)

Of course I know 

I'm a genius :sanji


----------



## Mateush (Nov 26, 2011)

OneHitKill said:


> Of course I know
> 
> I'm a genius :sanji



You are very strange. Saw you called yourself "genius", but ok


----------



## Appleofeden (Nov 26, 2011)

Makes sense, this is basically the Tobi = Juubi theory though. You've provided some background in Japanese mythology for this being possible, but it's the same idea.


----------



## Mateush (Nov 26, 2011)

Appleofeden said:


> Makes sense, this is basically the Tobi = Juubi theory though. You've provided some background in Japanese mythology for this being possible, but it's the same idea.



Basically same idea, but Tobi is not only "one" or "two". "He" literally is god-like equal to Rikudo.

"He" needs to collect all bijuus and more, to bring back "his" original powers.

"He" lost parts of "his" powers, because Rikudo did it.


----------



## Golden Circle (Nov 26, 2011)

This is a gud therory. I supprt dis.


----------



## Appleofeden (Nov 26, 2011)

Mateush said:


> Basically same idea, but Tobi is not only "one" or "two". "He" literally is god-like equal to Rikudo.
> 
> "He" needs to collect all bijuus and more, to bring back "his" original powers.
> 
> "He" lost parts of "his" powers, because Rikudo did it.



Yeah I get that part my only question is do you think after he gets the parts he's going to become the Juubi or his pre-Juubi form Izanami? Either way it's a good theory. I like it more than Obito and with the way the power scaling has gone the only thing that could really challenge Naruto @ the end is a fully realized God.


----------



## Mateush (Nov 26, 2011)

Appleofeden said:


> Yeah I get that part my only question is do you think after he gets the parts he's going to become the Juubi or his pre-Juubi form Izanami? Either way it's a good theory. I like it more than Obito and with the way the power scaling has gone the only thing that could really challenge Naruto @ the end is a fully realized God.



I don't know, but since she transformed to Juubi after hers death. So I doubt if Tobi would get back his original form, but who knows.

Also more about Rinnegan.. If she created the eyes and Rikudo got it, then my theory would makes sense, because Rikudo purified "bad" parts like Amaterasu and other Sharingan-related from his eyes.


----------



## OneHitKill (Nov 26, 2011)

Juubi is Rikudo Sennin's wife's hideous underworld form! 

:sanji


----------



## Appleofeden (Nov 26, 2011)

^ the Juubi's sharrinnegan eye kind supports your theory. I don't see how RIkudo could defeat the Juubi b4 accuireing the rinnegan unless it's a different set eyes. Also RS sealed the Juubi inside him self and then split it into the bijuu on his death bed. So where does Tobi fit in? Is he just some minute chakra left over from the process? This theory doesn't take into account his knowledge on Madara either. I guess Tobi could read a history book for most of that info.


----------



## Mateush (Nov 26, 2011)

Appleofeden said:


> ^ the Juubi's sharrinnegan eye kind supports your theory. I don't see how RIkudo could defeat the Juubi b4 accuireing the rinnegan unless it's a different set eyes. Also RS sealed the Juubi inside him self and then split it into the bijuu on his death bed. So where does Tobi fit in? Is he just some minute chakra left over from the process? This theory doesn't take into account his knowledge on Madara either. I guess Tobi could read a history book for most of that info.



I don't know if Tobi always was on earth. One example could be that Gedo Mazo is Juubi's body, Nagato summoned Gedo Mazo (originally locked in the moon). Tobi could come back in different form, because he was creator of many things.

Also Zetsu as Tobi's underling fits Izanami.

edit: Where Tobi fits in? Because Izanagi was scared by Izanami's new look and locked the underground with rock.



			
				OneHitKill said:
			
		

> Juubi is Rikudo Sennin's wife's hideous underworld form!



As I said it sounds insane, still makes sense. The whole story in Naruto, like legendary Jiraiya or toads already insane.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Nov 26, 2011)

Tobi is male, that much is certain, and that alone wrecks the theory.


----------



## Mateush (Nov 26, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> Tobi is male, that much is certain, and that alone wrecks the theory.



God in spiritual form should not be seen as definite gender. Only physical humans or animal you can use gender.

Anyway, good try.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Nov 26, 2011)

Mateush said:


> God in spiritual form should not be seen as definite gender. Only physical humans or animal you can use gender.
> 
> Anyway, good try.



Okay then, prove this god exists in the Narutoverse.


----------



## Mateush (Nov 26, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> Okay then, prove this god exists in the Narutoverse.



Theory can't always have solid proofs, otherwise it should be seen as fact or databook, not theory. 

I already gave many hints. Still it could be wrong, of course.

Pretty same with people never could guessed Madara in 6th coffin, since Tobi said he was Madara.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Nov 26, 2011)

Mateush said:


> Theory can't always have solid proofs, otherwise it should be seen as fact or databook, not theory.



Sure, but most theories that have any shred of credibility will have some evidence backing them up.



> I already gave many hints. Still it could be wrong, of course.



Your only evidence is a creation myth that Kishimoto already showed he isn't adhering to by using the names for techniques instead of characters.



> Pretty same with people never could guessed Madara in 6th coffin, since Tobi said he was Madara.



But plenty of people guessed that Madara was in the coffin because there were lots of hints that Tobi wasn't who he said he was.


----------



## Appleofeden (Nov 26, 2011)

[QUOTE=Mateush;4127468

edit: Where Tobi fits in? Because Izanagi was scared by Izanami's new look and locked the underground with rock.

what? Sorry but I don't understand this sentence. I'm asking where Tobi comes from. If Izanami=Juubi and the Juubi was split into the 9 bijuu than the 9 bijuu combined=Juubi. Where does Tobi fit into the equation if your saying he is the Juubi then he has to fit somewhere. Are you suggesting when RS split the Juubi he created 9bijuu and 1 Tobi?


----------



## Mateush (Nov 26, 2011)

Appleofeden said:


> what? Sorry but I don't understand this sentence. I'm asking where Tobi comes from. If Izanami=Juubi and the Juubi was split into the 9 bijuu than the 9 bijuu combined=Juubi. Where does Tobi fit into the equation if your saying he is the Juubi then he has to fit somewhere. Are you suggesting when RS split the Juubi he created 9bijuu and 1 Tobi?



Good question. Rikudo didn't had reason to create Tobi, or vice versa.
For example Madara or Nagato or Zetsu might very well create Tobi as Juubi in another form, so that it can complete plans.

Juubi's existence was explained by me.
Gods or goddesses are very hard, like questioning how Great Toad Sage came to life, or who was the first human.

My thread also should seen as myth in Japan. I kinda expect you to read more details about these myths, then counter me.


----------



## Mateush (Nov 26, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> Your only evidence is a creation myth that Kishimoto already showed he isn't adhering to by using the names for techniques instead of characters.



It seems as he kinda mixing or creating new ideas with these myths, for example Jiraiya or Tsunade or Orochimaru were real names, as well their abilities.


----------



## Appleofeden (Nov 26, 2011)

^lol, that's not how it works. It's your theory you have to do the work to support it.


----------



## Mateush (Nov 26, 2011)

Appleofeden said:


> ^lol, that's not how it works. It's your theory you have to do the work to support it.



Izanagi was "real" person, while in Naruto ir only showed as technique. While Jiraiya or Tsunade or Orochimaru were "real" in myths. Yes he do mix these, sometimes with new ideas or not.

I didn't read the heavy details, only a few summaries. You admitted that it could makes sense, therefore my theory works.

Maybe I should instead read much more about these myths, then give hard proof.


----------



## Appleofeden (Nov 26, 2011)

I'm not talking about the myths. We all know Kishi draws heavily from Japanese mythology. It is not however a direct retelling. You'll need more than just Japanese mythology to back your theory. Manga evidence to be accurate. Kishi has used the names of gods for techs specifically sharingan techs. But the story of Naruto is not a direct take on these myths. If you wanna say that the RS/Juubi story mirriors the Izanami/Izanagi myth fine we already knew that. But if you say Tobi is Juubi for this reason you need manga evidence to back it.


----------



## Appleofeden (Nov 27, 2011)

I didn't read the heavy details, only a few summaries. You admitted that it could makes sense, therefore my theory works.


I said parts make sense but I've also pointed out several holes. It's your job to now fill those holes. You have to consider everything we know about Tobi/ Juubi not just the parts that fit but the parts that don't. I personally like the theory of Tobi=Juubi, I'm biased. Others  who do not, will not be as forgiving when you can't answer questions.


----------



## Mateush (Nov 27, 2011)

Ok I understand what you mean. 

It's really hard to find good evidence about Rikudo and even a unknown person. If Tobi is someone unknown, then he could be Izanami or someone old and wise. 

Only vague possible argument is Juubi's existence. I doubt Kishi will use the excuse about that monster came from nowhere, since it doesn't makes good sense. 
To find the answer about Juubi and Rikudo might be impossible, since there are not enough evidence. 

Juubi previously was Izanami or "same" with other name makes more sense. 
Another problem is Rikudo's face is unknown, but not his two sons. No mention about wife or like that. Therefore Izanami may exists too.

If that name exists in Naruto then it's high possible that she still is alive because all bijuu and possible Gedo Mazo too.

Tobi as Izanami is only a wild guess.


----------



## Mugivara (Jan 13, 2012)

Here one another proof for my theory:


*Spoiler*: __ 





> All Ninjas of the olden days were attributed supernatural powers, sometimes greatly exaggerated. Many were associated with witchcraft or black magic even. The illustrious Kato Danzo was also well-known for his capabilities as an illusionist. Who else can boast of being able to swallow a whole bull in front of a crowd of over twenty persons? Who else can throw seeds onto the ground and have them sprout and flower in front of the very eyes of the onlookers? *Kato Danzo mastered the techniques of illusion*(Can we say that Izanagi is the best illusion ever?) to such an extent that even the powerful lords of Japan were in awe of him.
> 
> Kato Danzo lived during the Sengoku period in Japan. The Sengoku period was a period of civil unrest (15th to 17th Century). This period marked the rise of the daimyo or regional lords and the erosion of centralized power. The daimyo held considerable powers and thus, like other Ninjas, Kato Danzo sought employment from one of these lords: the powerful and respected Uesugi Kenshin. Yet even Uesugi Kenshin was afraid of Kato Danzo.
> 
> ...






Sooooo....


*Spoiler*: __ 





> *Katō Danzō* (加藤 段蔵?, 1503? - 1569) was a famed 16th century ninja master during the Sengoku period Japan who was also known as Flying Katō (飛び加藤 *Tobi Katō*?)


----------



## Volture (May 2, 2012)

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is *Here*

Fucking Madara man


----------



## Raventhal (May 2, 2012)

nadinkrah said:


> ooooooooooo.
> 
> How do you explain the battle between him and Minato? He didn't know his technique at all.



It could be a natural ability of his eye.  After all Tobi uses eye techniquues as far as we know.  

The time line is the trick with Obito.


----------



## Ryuzaki (May 2, 2012)

Tobi is Madara's daddy or son


----------



## NW (May 2, 2012)

Tobi is future Naruto who merged with Sasuke and became Sasuto. He stole Obito's eye then traveled to the past to prevent this dumb theory from ever being made in the first place.

Lol, seriously though. The only seemingly plausible candidates left for Tobi are:

-Obito
-Izuna
-Kagami
-Nawaki

I can't think of any more. If I find any proof that solidly validifies any other character as being Tobi then I'll add to the list.


----------



## Klue (May 2, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Tobi is future Naruto who merged with Sasuke and became Sasuto. He stole Obito's eye then traveled to the past to prevent this dumb theory from ever being made in the first place.
> 
> Lol, seriously though. The only seemingly plausible candidates left for Tobi are:
> 
> ...



Obito isn't plausible. Juubi is sealed in the moon and how is the Elder Son alive?


----------



## NW (May 2, 2012)

Klue said:


> Obito isn't plausible. Juubi is sealed in the moon and how is the Elder Son alive?



1. Give me some good reasons that Obito's not plausible and I'll believe you.

2. Juubi's body was sealed in the moon and his chakra was split into the biju, true, however it was never mentioned what happened to his soul. It could have inhabited some body as a vessel.

3. No idea. But, he was the son of Rikudo so, he could have found a way


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 2, 2012)

Getting in on the ground floor.

Tobi is Obito, bet on it.


----------



## Palpatine (May 2, 2012)

Tobi is the rock that crushed Obito.


----------



## Demonic Sharingan (May 2, 2012)

Fugaku, obito or shisui


----------



## Escargon (May 3, 2012)

Heres some things you have to take note before making funny  theories:

1. Kisame bit off his tongue to prevent Konoha from seeing Tobis face. It might mean, if Tobis face got showed, it would ruin the plan.
So its a good chance that Tobis clone is working for Konoha. Think like Kishi, why would he do this? Dont think way too advanced.

2. Kishi planned Tobis identity when he first came, i belivie Kishi actually planned him from the beginning. Kagami or any other bullshit character that got added years after Tobi doesnt count.

You dont hide someones identity and then add a character 4 years after that is supposed to be him. Unless youre retarded.

Me, myself? I belivie that Tobi got Madara implanted so that he seems to have two faces. In chapter 510 you can see that Kishi shadowed the Izanagi part of his face. Why would he do that? Dont make it too advanced.

The shadowed part of the area is his true identity, and a clone of him is working at Konoha, thats my theory, i have no clue who it is tho. 

A wild guess is Fugaku, that would be cool, but i dont think so. It wouldnt really ruin his plan if his face got showed anyways. He could still carry on.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 3, 2012)

To celebrate the 100th site in the "Tobi's identity thread" I collected every piece of my Tobi theory, to show it to you guys. Hopefully you well let me know, what you think of it.
At first I want to thank *Shin - Zangetsu*, another user who believes in the *Elder Son Theory* and who stated his points in  . Many people (as me) appreciate his work in this thread and rewarded it with 5 stars. In his thread he lists various hints in the manga, which lead to the Elder Son and more. In this thread i want to expand his work, by stating *HOW* the Elder Son could/would have lived so long, and why it perfectly matches in the Story Line of Naruto, as well as filling every Story Gap.




> How could the Elder Son survive that long of a time?



The Elder Son was the one, who was gifted with the RS' eyes, chakra and spiritual energy.

Therefore he should be able to use several jutsu's we don't even know,as well as jutsu's we know now in other versions (reinvented). When asking, how a person can survive in Naruto the first thing, that comes to my mind is Orochimaru's Fushi Tensei. The jutsu, which he uses to take over other people's bodies and live on in them.
This means, he survived by taking over the bodies of other members of the Uchiha Clan.
Orochimaru's jutsus are based on research, he takes other jutsus and adjusts them to himself, like the edo tensei, which was originally invented by the 2nd Hokage. Therefore we can assume, that there was a jutsu like Fushi Tensei before.



> What was the reason for him, to use Fushi Tensei.


 
It's obviously the feud of Uchiha and Senju.

As already mentioned the Elder Son overtook the bodies of other Uchiha members. (Maybe only for the feud, maybe because he couldn't take other bodies because the sharingan would drain too much chakra in Non-Uchiha-bodies)
These bodies allowed him to keep on the feud with the Senju Clan -> You may say: The Uchihas, who fought the Senju, are simply all Tobi.
In the 2nd Image I inserted, Tobi said "The descendants of the two brothers still warred with each other", but it's simply a war between the Elder Son and the descendants of the younger son.



> So why did Tobi say, that he was Madara?



Because he actually *was* Madara. One of the Uchihas, overtaken by Tobi was Madara, after he founded Konoha with Hashirama. Tobi controled the Kyuubi in Madaras body in order to destroy Konoha, which gave force to the Senju, but lost to Hashirama. He had to back down. He was weak after that battle, Tobi even says that in one chapter. So nothing happend for the next about 50 years. He probably changed his body a few times, until we get to the 3rd Ninja World War.

*Time for some maths at this point:*

Assuming he needs a body all 15-20 years he switched 2 times in this interval and when he needed the third body, he took the one of Obito. (Dies in 3rd War, which takes place *47* years after Madara &quot;summoned&quot; the Kyuubi, maybe Tobi was exhausted for some reason and not able to take the body of a living Uchiha, so he took Obitos). Again he attacks Konoha with the Kyuubi, but is stopped by Minato. (Maybe Obitos body was to not strong enough, because of one missing Sharingan) Again he has to back down and wait to get new power. But his time is limited, he needs a new body. That's when he observes 2 Uchiha growing up, who might be strong enough to fulfill his plans, to destroy Konoha: Itachi and Shisui. He plans to take one of them as his next body. Itachi kills Shisui in order to be either strong enough to kill all Uchihas for the Konoha elders or to prevent Shisui from expose Itachis plan.
Tobi knows that he is not strong enough to take Itachis body (Orochimaru fails at the same time to take Itachis body). [Possible reasons for Tobi to fail taking his body: Tobi is still weakend due to the lose to Minato, implanted Sharingan drains Tobis Chakra, Shisui's Kotoamatsukami in the eye taken by Itachi saves him from Tobi (Itachi kills Shisui 6 years before the story starts + 4 years Shippuuden training time: 10 years -> the exact time to refresh Shisui's eye)]
Tobi tries now to get Itachi with the help of Sasuke, but Sasuke kills Itachi. This makes Sasuke to the new target for Tobis plan. (Still assuming that he needs a new body all 15-20 years, he gets pressure now, because his current body was overtaken in the 3rd War, which lays back 17 years) He needs Sasukes body! And cooperates with him for that reason.



> What's with the Eye of the Moon Plan? Tobi and Madara are obviously not the same person?!?



Back when Madara lived, he and the Elder Son made a contract, because they could benefit from each other: Madara was clearly stronger than other Uchihas, so he would be a perfect body for the Elder Son, who urgently needed one. Madara needed more power to beat Konoha, so he gave his body to the elder son and let him control his moves. At that point of time the both of them created the Eye of the Moon Plan.



> How can Madara awaken the Rinnegan? Why does Nagato posses the Rinnegan?



The Rinnegan originally was awaken by the Elder Son himself. Shortly before Madara's body was going to die, he and the elder created the moons eye plan. The elder left Madara's body, but gave the Rinnegan to him, so he would be able to revive him later, with his own Rinnegan. (reason why Madara awoke the Rinnegan shortly before he died)
Madara died, and the elder son took a new body. He planed to revive 
Madara and together fulfill the moonseye plan.
Nagato got the Rinnegan in the 3rd Ninja World War. At exactly the same time Obito died. When Tobi took Obitos corpse to life on, there could be a coherence. Maybe Obito's body was to weak to hold the Rinnegan. It was a dead body. So Nagato should conserve the eyes until Madara is powerful enough to get them back.
Nagato used the revive jutsu for Konoha, but luckily Madara was revived by Kabuto, so they are united now and can fulfill the plan.
When he takes back the eyes from Nagato, Tobi says, that he gave it to him once and now takes it back (He is the older son of Rikudou-> got the eyes of Rikudou), as well as that Nagato was the third Sage of the six Paths (Rikudou being the first, and he being the second for having the eyes of Rikudou)



> Why is Tobi afraid of the revived Madara, when they are mates?



Because it's one of his former bodies, at that moment he hasn't got the Rinnegan, so he is still weakend. (still weak body of Obito, eventhough he may be about 30 years now) Therefore his "former body" Madara is stronger than he is, and may be able to either expose his identity or even defeat him. Furthermore he is afraid, because everybody knows now, that he is not Madara.



> Why does he wear a mask, if he is actually not a character, known by any protagonist?



He uses Obito's body at the moment. Obito's body is well known to atleast some people.

*At last some Tobi quotes:*


Tobi says to Konan, that the winner of the clash between Uchiha and Senju is the one, who focuses on the future. That's Tobi, because he fights the Senju, since they exist and earns experience, which will make it possible for him to surpass them.


Tobi says to Kabuto: "They [nagato's eyes] were mine to begin with." -> Prime Father of Uchiha, who got the eyes by the RS


----------



## Eskilllicous (May 3, 2012)

The only problem i have with the Obito theory is that it would make Kakashi the main character, which i think we all can agree would be rather stupid.


----------



## Klue (May 3, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> 1. Give me some good reasons that Obito's not plausiblr and I'll believe you.



Already gave them to you: 



TobiUchiha111 said:


> 2. Juubi's body was sealed in the moon and his chakra was split into the biju, true, however it was never mentioned what happened to his soul. It could have inhabited some body as a vessel.



So Bijuu's have souls now?

If Juubi has a soul, and it's still alive, chakra-less and sealed in the moon, why wouldn't its soul still inhabit its own body?

You can't call something plausible if there isn't any evidence to support the claim.



TobiUchiha111 said:


> 3. No idea. But, he was the son of Rikudo so, he could have found a way


----------



## son_michael (May 3, 2012)

too much in favor of obito than that one little timeline inconsistency, kishi can make it all make sense


----------



## Talis (May 3, 2012)

Eskilllicous said:


> The only problem i have with the Obito theory is that it would make Kakashi the main character, which i think we all can agree would be rather stupid.


Explain Kakashis year then which got delayed like for 3 years.


----------



## NW (May 3, 2012)

Eskilllicous said:


> The only problem i have with the Obito theory is that it would make Kakashi the main character, which i think we all can agree would be rather stupid.



he wouldn't be the main character, Naruto would still be the one to fight him.



Klue said:


> Already gave them to you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
1. the "fake Madara" that Kabuto was talking about could have been black Zetsu. Since White Zetsu was made from hashirama's DNA, it would make sense that Black Zetsu was made from Madara's. In a sense, that wouls make black zetsu a fake madara. So since zetsu could record fights. he could have recorded important things and shown them to obito and told him about the past. Think outside the box.

2. of course it has a soul. Look at Kurama. He had all that character development. he had to have a soul to have feelings. Plus, Im don't think his soul wold have gone in the moon with it's own body.

3. Maybe i got a little caried away with that elder son one. But i stand by my previous 2 points.










son_michael said:


> too much in favor of obito than that one little timeline inconsistency, kishi can make it all make sense



Exactly. people deny a MASSIVE load of evidence over one small little inconsistensy that could easily be patched up by kishi.



loool3 said:


> Explain Kakashis year then which got delayed like for 3 years.



Exactly. Kishi's not just "forgetting" kakashi's year. he's waiting for when he reveals a certain someone's identity.


----------



## Summers (May 3, 2012)

Tobi is nobody. Just some random guy Madara found useful, and who's back story will be explained when his face is revealed.


----------



## Talis (May 3, 2012)

Klue said:


> Already gave them to you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Weakest reason ever. 
The long haired masked man was clearly the real Madara which was obviously around Obito's time, yes he did say that Nagato was grown when he came back, but it could be anything, he might have lost Nagato when he tried to find him back and meanwhile he died, then the ''brat has grown'' line still would make sense.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 3, 2012)

I just came up with a point of view, which could support the Elder Son theory.
It's about Zetsu.
Zetsu mirrors the Rikudou Sennins creation.
For example -> RS "split" into Yin and Yang
Yang symbolizes life force and therefore the Senju. 
Yin symbolizes spirit and therefore therefore the Uchiha.
Yang means light in chinese. (right translation would be sunny place or something, but u know what I mean) Yin means darkness.
Maybe you already get my point.
Zetsu at first was black and white. Yin and Yang -> then he split into black and white.

Only the white Zetsu was cloned -> 100000 white Zetsus, remember white = Yang = life force = Senju -> 100000 Senju
The black Zetsu stays alone -> 1 black Zetsu, black = Yin = spirit = Uchiha -> 1 Uchiha

This basically means 100000 Senju vs. 1 Uchiha.
Who was the first Uchiha? AHHH the Elder Son. It basically means that he fought ALONE vs the 100000 Senju -> I refer to my  at this point. I think you got what I was trying to say. 

You can find some more hints on Zetsu being an embodiment of the RS' creation  )


----------



## Brian (May 3, 2012)

this beast right here


----------



## Raventhal (May 3, 2012)

Bijuu's can have souls.  They were created by a man who can create.  SoSP was godly. 

Elder son in Obito is interesting.


----------



## NW (May 5, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> I just came up with a point of view, which could support the Elder Son theory.
> It's about Zetsu.
> Zetsu mirrors the Rikudou Sennins creation.
> For example -> RS "split" into Yin and Yang
> ...



Wow. That's pretty well thought out. Good stuff!


----------



## TJFuZioN (May 5, 2012)

Brian said:


> this beast right here



Who the hell is that?


----------



## shit (May 5, 2012)

TOBITOBITOBITOBITOBITOBITO


----------



## Talis (May 5, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Exactly. Kishi's not just "forgetting" kakashi's year. he's waiting for when he reveals a certain someone's identity.


To be exactly Kishi said in the 2012 interview that in this year the Kakashis year will happen for real. 
And Guess who's identity is almost up to be revealed. xD


----------



## Talis (May 5, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> Who the hell is that?


Aoba, Konoha's pimp.


----------



## TJFuZioN (May 5, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Aoba, Konoha's pimp.



Didn't he fight Tobi??


----------



## Talis (May 5, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> Didn't he fight Tobi??


Nope, he was there at Kisames, checking his flashbacks.


----------



## TJFuZioN (May 5, 2012)

Oh. Right. So who was Danzo's bodyguard with the glasseswfrom ROOT who fought Tobi??

(I'm guessing the Aoba thing was a joke, but this is precisely why random fodder characters don't make good Tobi candidates)


----------



## Talis (May 5, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> Oh. Right. So who was Danzo's bodyguard with the glasseswfrom ROOT who fought Tobi??
> 
> (I'm guessing the Aoba thing was a joke, but this is precisely why random fodder characters don't make good Tobi candidates)


Unknown, might have been Aoba since Kabuto knew him.


----------



## jefe (May 5, 2012)

*whos fake madara*

I was recently re reading chapter 564 and I came to a conclusion. There is no doubt that the man behind the mask is of uchiha origin. Considering obito not a factor obviously. He couldn't of fought the fourth and acquired the kyubi. I believe itachi never killed his best friend shishu. Shishu is pulling the strings and gave up his eyes and faked his death to become 'complete'.


----------



## T-Bag (May 5, 2012)

sasuke's father


----------



## Owl (May 5, 2012)

Tobi is a mentally deranged Sasuke who suffers from multiple personality disorder


----------



## jefe (May 5, 2012)

I thought sasukes father as well.


----------



## Kali95 (May 5, 2012)

-How does Madara know who Tobi is, since he died before Obito was crushed
-Kisame recognized the long haired Tobi and short haired Tobi as the same person, trying to say they're different is ridiculous.
-Why did Obito randomly want to destroy Konoha 
-Why did Obito want to randomly massacre the Uchiha clan
-How did Obito become powerful enough to control the Kyuubi and fight on par with Minato in less than 3 years
-Why did Obito say to Kushina "Do you know long I've been waiting for this?" when it has only been a couple years
-How is Tobi is clearly older than Kakashi, when Obito is the same age.
-How did Obito fool Kisame and Itachi into thinking he is Madara
-How does Obito know things that are impossible for him to have known


Could probably go on forever, but this is too easy already.


----------



## Moon Fang (May 5, 2012)

I wished people started saying whats left of obito since if it is he's clearly lost his fucking mind.


----------



## jacamo (May 6, 2012)

Tobi = Uchiha Kagami... Kakashi will mistaken him for Uchiha Obito because Kagami was his father - this is when the sob story flashbacks will begin


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 6, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Wow. That's pretty well thought out. Good stuff!



Thank you 




jefe said:


> I was recently re reading chapter 564 and I came to a conclusion. There is no doubt that the man behind the mask is of uchiha origin. Considering obito not a factor obviously. He couldn't of fought the fourth and acquired the kyubi. I believe itachi never killed his best friend shishu. Shishu is pulling the strings and gave up his eyes and faked his death to become 'complete'.



I agree on the fact that Shisui's role is not over, but he is not Tobi: Shisui being the black part of Zetsu would be soo cool. Fused with Hashirama's chakra - the white Zetsu *__*
Epic Zetsu come back as villain. _Kabuto_, _Tobi_ & _Zetsu_ -> *Sage*, Uchiha *founder* & *monster* created by *Uchiha's and Senju's strongest member* would be such an epic end fight.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Btw. Suigetsu found a role in Oro's hideout, possible content: Oro's experiment to fuse Senju with Uchiha: Hashirama's cells with Shisui's cells -> Zetsu.....but that's off topic. 



But *IF* Zetsu is the embodiment of the RS' creation, then Elder Son theory gets a whole new aspect, which, it cannot be denied, makes it become (one of) the plausiblest theorie(s).

EDIT: Zetsu being 50% Shisui could also explain the whole Controled-Mizukage thing. Maybe it was possible for Tobi to make use of the Kotoamatsukami with the help of Shisui's cells.
Maybe Zetsu is only a "container" for Tobi to store the cells of Senju and Shisui/Uchiha.
Or Tobi waits to revive the stored cells with his Sharingan. Remember black Zetsu fights Chojuro at the moment. Imagine how it would be if he would stand up and transform to Shisui - A fated fight if you remember the fact, that Shisui once fought Ao, who kinda acts like he was Chojuro's Sensei. Naruto tells stories of disciples overcoming their Senseis.


----------



## Escargon (May 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Tobi = Uchiha Kagami... Kakashi will mistaken him for Uchiha Obito because Kagami was his father - this is when the sob story flashbacks will begin



Kishi creates Tobi and hides his identity, and after years he suddenly puts in a fodder, i mean Kagami, that is supposed to be Tobi. Makes sense.


To be honest, in all mangas ive read with a masked guy with hidden identity, its always been some "dead" guy from the past.

Its funny, after 10 years of waiting, they remove the mask, and theyre like "aha its him. Ok." Totally anticlimatic. Hopefully Kakashi wont react to that when he sees Obito.

And to Obito lover Lool3, ive been thinking dude:

Maybe youre right, the man with long hair is the real Madara, maybe Kisame bit his own tongue so Konoha wouldnt hear how the plan worked out, otherwise there may have been some hints how to stop it.

But theres one thing that fucks up the theory: Tobi got Madaras hair. It was really Tobi who met Itachi. And he had Madaras hair.


----------



## Talis (May 6, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Kishi creates Tobi and hides his identity, and after years he suddenly puts in a fodder, i mean Kagami, that is supposed to be Tobi. Makes sense.
> 
> 
> To be honest, in all mangas ive read with a masked guy with hidden identity, its always been some "dead" guy from the past.
> ...


That was also real Madara obviously, i am just waiting for the retard flashbacks to end so Madara can go there to Itachi and their backstories will be revealed.
After this people gonna support the Tobi is a Madara clone because Kisame reffered to the long haired masked man having the same face as Tobi, but it won't go like that since Kisame reffered him as that just because Tobi took Madara's role.
As far as Kakashi is there theres no better candidate besides Obito, and Shisui since he was incredible famous. (Even Bee knew him)

The reason why Tobi wil end up as Obito is because it will be some kind of preparation for Naruto.
He will get some ''friend'' lessons from Obito and Kakashi which he wil use on his own friend. (Sasuke)


----------



## Nuuskis (May 6, 2012)

I don't think Tobi is anyone we have seen so far, I believe Madara created him with Izanagi just before he died, so he could quarantee that someone would continue his Moon's Eye Plan.

So Tobi is a real living less powerful copy of Madara Uchiha. I see no other explanation for how much Tobi knows about Rikudou Sennin, Madara and Hashirama.


----------



## Talis (May 6, 2012)

You can't create a clone within a minute...
And if it was that easy to create a clone, then every single Uchiha's would just create 100k clones out their asses to fight along them.


----------



## Nuuskis (May 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> You can't create a clone within a minute...
> And if it was that easy to create a clone, then every single Uchiha's would just create 100k clones out their asses to fight along them.



I'm not sure if you were replying to my post but in case:

I am not talking about Kage Bunshins or anything, I mean that Madara created Tobi with Izanagi, so he is real.


----------



## Talis (May 6, 2012)

Nachrael said:


> I'm not sure if you were replying to my post but in case:
> 
> I am not talking about Kage Bunshins or anything, I mean that Madara created Tobi with Izanagi, so he is real.


Why would he create a clone when he can safe himself with Izanagi? 
And there is no logic in revealing a masked mans identity as a clone.


----------



## Nuuskis (May 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Why would he create a clone when he can safe himself with Izanagi?
> And there is no logic in revealing a masked mans identity as a clone.



Well your first question is hard to answer since we have no idea how Madara died. Obviously not for old age since he doesn't look old while he is resurrected.
But you could also ask why didn't Danzo save himself with Izanagi after Sasuke stabbed him through the heart? He still had Shisui's eye ready for use.

"And there is no logic in revealing a masked mans identity as a clone" You can say that, but I think Tobi being a copy of Madara made using Izanagi is more logical than Tobi being Obito or just some "Tobi Uchiha" who was a distant cousin of Madara.

Actually, I think Madara used Izanagi AND that flower with Hashirama sticking in it. To me it seems like Tobi's body is made of Zetsu's goo, so maybe Madara used that flower as a energy source for Tobi or something.

Rikudou Sennin used 10 tail's chakra as energy source for the 9 Bijuus after all.


----------



## Nadroj (May 6, 2012)

I wrote down a lot of things and really can't decide how to sum it all up other than this: I don't know who Tobi is.

Tobi is almost an oxymoron. He seems to have deep-seated hate for the Senju but helped Itachi massacre the Uchiha. This is completely contradictory.

Shisui seems to be a good frontrunner for who it could be, but I think there's only one dead person who's capable of such overwhelming hate: Izuna.

Izuna sacrifice his own eyes so that Madara could defeat the Senju but then the clans formed an alliance. Izuna's appearance in his coffin assumed his death, but this was Tobi telling the story. Izuna, much like Madara, would instinctively hate the Senju, and should come to hate his own clan for betraying him. The two brothers were the most powerful Uchiha, way beyond anyone else. Why would Izuna be refering to himself as Madara? Well, Madara's greatest powers came from his own eyes, so Izuna is responsible for his own brother's strength. Pretending to be dead would insure his survival over time, his ability to plot ahead for the future, and eventually show the world his true power. I may be getting ahead of myself, but I just think Izuna should be an option in this.


----------



## Talis (May 6, 2012)

Nachrael said:


> Well your first question is hard to answer since we have no idea how Madara died. Obviously not for old age since he doesn't look old while he is resurrected.
> But you could also ask why didn't Danzo save himself with Izanagi after Sasuke stabbed him through the heart? He still had Shisui's eye ready for use.
> 
> "And there is no logic in revealing a masked mans identity as a clone" You can say that, but I think Tobi being a copy of Madara made using Izanagi is more logical than Tobi being Obito or just some "Tobi Uchiha" who was a distant cousin of Madara.


Danzou couldn't use his last Sharingan because he had no more controle of Hashirama's chakra which means that he couldn't use Izanagi.

And it's obvious that masked mans identity is always supposed to surprise readers, and even if it shouldn't in some cases then it shouldn't last for so many years keeping a mask on.
If he was Madara his face would have been revealed right at the moment he said, but no he just used the name to scare the people around.
If he was a clone his face would also been shown right after he said that he's Madara he could simply reveal him being died already, but no again.
And you can't say that he didn't revealed himself being dead already to scare people around since he said it over 100 times that he's a ''shell of his former self''.


----------



## Nadroj (May 6, 2012)

loool3 said:


> And you can't say that he didn't revealed himself being dead already to scare people around since he said it over 100 times that he's a ''shell of his former self''.



I'm pretty sure we can rule out Madara, but there's a reason for why Tobi has been going around claiming to be him. Madara was the most feared shinobi, and Tobi wanted people to view him like that. Tobi continues to wear his mask despite the awareness that he isn't Madara, then begins to say "I'm no one." Tobi has to be ashamed of his identity, and his plan is so far in that it probably wouldn't matter if he was some spy in Konoha or some place.

Tobi wears his mask to:
A) Hide his weakness.
B) Hide himself.


----------



## Crona (May 6, 2012)

I have said this countless times before and now with the recent chapters it may become true.

My theory is: Tobi is a corrupt former Root member.


----------



## Good Boy (May 6, 2012)

Who else would find it better if Tobi's mask just never comes off by the time he dies and his entire body disintegrates into goo.

A real nobody


----------



## jNdee~ (May 6, 2012)

tobi is tazuna. heard it here first


----------



## jacamo (May 7, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Kishi creates Tobi and hides his identity, and after years he suddenly puts in a fodder, i mean Kagami, that is supposed to be Tobi. Makes sense.



lol... that doesnt prove it cant be Kagami

in fact, nothing can "prove" it cant be Kagami... nothing



Nadroj said:


> Shisui seems to be a good frontrunner for who it could be, but I think there's only one dead person who's capable of such overwhelming hate: Izuna.



i agree, everything pointed to Izuna 

until Madara said he died


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 7, 2012)

Good Boy said:


> Who else would find it better if Tobi's mask just never comes off by the time he dies and his entire body disintegrates into goo.
> 
> A real nobody



Noone would find that better, because it's the most boring explanation ever. Waves of rage will come over Kishi, if it ends that stupid.

Elder son is a real nobody, because he has "no body", but takes the bodies of his family.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 7, 2012)

loool3 said:


> LOL.



Don't know what's so funny about it. It IS at the moment the theory with the least plotholes. And it's the only theory so far, without ANY objections.
Try to refute it, you won't be able to do so.


----------



## Talis (May 7, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Don't know what's so funny about it. It IS at the moment the theory with the least plotholes. And it's the only theory so far, without ANY objections.
> Try to refute it, you won't be able to do so.


I am just lolling at the way they take that line, first Tobidara supporters using that line for Tobi being a clone and now this.

For the 1000000000 time, HE CLEARLY SAID *I AM NOBODY, I DON'T WANT TO BE ANYBODY.
*Now why the fck does he wants to be an ''anybody'' if he's already a nobody?  (double post number 1000x, the next one which talks about this i'll even make a thread about it)

That line clearly means that he's a nobody because he has no future, friends, emotions.
Whats so hard in understanding senstence this forum lacks some serious brains.
He even said 1 line before ''theres no more hope in this world''.
Then some funny guys comes around here and makes some ridiculous dumb theories with that dumb line.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 7, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I am just lolling at the way they take that line, first Tobidara supporters using that line for Tobi being a clone and now this.
> 
> For the 1000000000 time, HE CLEARLY SAID *I AM NOBODY, I DON'T WANT TO BE ANYBODY.
> *Now why the fck does he wants to be an ''anybody'' if he's already a nobody?  (double post number 1000x, the next one which talks about this i'll even make a thread about it)
> ...



Ah I understand your problem. I was refering to the guy who said, that he must be out of goo to be a real nobody.


----------



## Nadroj (May 7, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Don't know what's so funny about it. It IS at the moment the theory with the least plotholes. And it's the only theory so far, without ANY objections.
> Try to refute it, you won't be able to do so.



The problems I have with your theory of the Elder Son is, one, involves a lot of assumed details. They are held on to something, but it seems to me to be kind of unsupported at times. I also have a problem with the Elder Son helping Itachi kill off his own decedents. The only Uchiha able to feel such hate for his own group are: Itachi (clearly as he did it), Madara (betrayed, but dead), and Izuna (the only person to say he was dead was). I mean, if the Uchiha were planning a cout d'?tat against the Senju, wouldn't this be a great time for the Elder Son to defeat his brother's descendants?

It's been shown that non Uchiha can use the Sharingan, or other eye techniques. It's possible that Tobi isn't actually an Uchiha but some crazy and powerful shinobi.



jacamo said:


> i agree, everything pointed to Izuna
> 
> until Madara said he died



When was this? I don't remember Madara really mentioning his brother after being resurrected. As far as I know, Tobi and Itachi are the only ones who have mentioned Izuna.


----------



## MaskedMan88 (May 7, 2012)

The Uchiha Lineage

Madara
Kagami
Shisui - Obito


Izuna
Fugaku
Itachi - Sasuke


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 7, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> The problems I have with your theory of the Elder Son is, one, involves a lot of assumed details. They are held on to something, but it seems to me to be kind of unsupported at times. I also have a problem with the Elder Son helping Itachi kill off his own decedents. The only Uchiha able to feel such hate for his own group are: Itachi (clearly as he did it), Madara (betrayed, but dead), and Izuna (the only person to say he was dead was). I mean, if the Uchiha were planning a cout d'?tat against the Senju, wouldn't this be a great time for the Elder Son to defeat his brother's descendants?



It are less details than that Kabuto plot, that annoys me now for more than 3 chapters.... I have writen down the backstory in one text, Kishi should be able to do the same in 3-4 chapters.
I wouldn't call it unsupported. Read my  and/or my  if you are interested.
Possible reasons for him to help at the massacre:
1st - to get Sharingans, we know he stores them in his lab
2nd - to hide his identity (maybe the Uchihas knew something we don't or the
Uchiha tablets reveal things, that could be bad for the Elder Son -> eliminate people who can read it)
3rd - he knew, that the coup d'etat would fail, because he was weak at that point of time
4th - he wanted to train Itachi (or even Sasuke) to be his new body



Nadroj said:


> It's been shown that non Uchiha can use the Sharingan, or other eye techniques. It's possible that Tobi isn't actually an Uchiha but some crazy and powerful shinobi.



That's true, but as we learned from Kakashi it costs massive amounts of chakra. Kakashi hides his Sharingan to save chakra. Tobi always has had one sharingan up. Now we know, that he has 2 Sharingans -> 2 Sharingans, which are permanent active would be unbearable for a non-Uchiha.





Nadroj said:


> When was this? I don't remember Madara really mentioning his brother after being resurrected. As far as I know, Tobi and Itachi are the only ones who have mentioned Izuna.


----------



## Talis (May 7, 2012)

Tobi can't be elder son since he said that ''theres no hope anymore in the world'' which strongly implies that Tobi was a good guy, which fits exactly in Shisui, Obito, RS, younger son candidates.


----------



## ch1p (May 7, 2012)

Something that crossed my mind as I re-subscribed this thread.

Maybe Tobi is literally no one but a role or idea being played. Rikudo's children's feud never got resolved and there seems to be this idea that every now and then, an inheritor of each will will fight against the other. Maybe at some point, the older child's inheritor created Tobi, and this role has been passed down for an indefinite number of generations, in some general way. The manga does seem fond of playing about with destined ones, so this is right up that alley. It would tie the cycle of hatred, the chosen ones BS, why Tobi might have been several people in the past, why Tobi says he's no one (he's an _idea_), why he wants to be complete. By proxy, it would explain Naruto and the tailed beasts' convo with Naruto would also be interesting, and not just a shameless plushie campaign. Furthermore, it would give Sasuke the opportunity to step up and be the manga's final villain, as the next Tobi, after inheriting the role from whoever's Tobi right now.

This needs to be explained in better words. 

Tobi as Sasuke from the future (never going to happen) or a corrupted Sage of Six Paths are still my favourite theories.



Escargon said:


> Heres some things you have to take note before making funny  theories:
> 
> 1. Kisame bit off his tongue to prevent Konoha from seeing Tobis face. It might mean, if Tobis face got showed, it would ruin the plan.
> So its a good chance that Tobis clone is working for Konoha. Think like Kishi, why would he do this? Dont think way too advanced.
> ...



This as well, in general. It needs to be someone who'll cause an impact, otherwise why all this mystery surrounding his face. At this point _who_ can be that person?



Crystaltiger said:


> Elder son is a real nobody, because he has "no body", but takes the bodies of his family.



I don't dislike this, but why would a reveal would be so important?


----------



## McLover (May 7, 2012)

the mysterious power of the sage of the six paths was mostly due to his rinnegan, the creation, yin & yang, and stuff, is all rinnegan's power. anyone who has a rinnegan is called "sage of the six paths", madara was second, nagato was third.
the yin and yang, you form a body of a shape you imagine, and implant chakra in it, chakra is life, power, soul, chiyo used her "chakra" to bring gaara back to life. the sage formed the 9 bijuus and used the 10 tails chakra, however, the bijuus have their own personalities, their own emotions, their own feelings.
madara had rinnegan too, there are 2 things he might have needed that, eternity, or power, it's what orochimaru also seek and almost achieved.
i'm positive that madara created zetsu, zetsu is like a tree's glue, he's 2 halves, black and white, just like the yin and yang is. it makes a lot of sense to why he's the last living akatsuki, and why tobi's body is zetsu clone. i can't get to a conclusion to why tobi's weak and isn't a fighter, but i'd assume madara was low in chakra? and could only transfer the last bit of his chakra? i don't know really. but it's obvious to why he created the akatsuki, he has no power, he has to use power people's "weakness" to achieve his goals, to merge himself and become complete, as he's a shell his former self, he sure gave the rinnegan to someone else, he wouldn't be able to use it other than for the linked eyes and gedo mazo statue. he cares about madara being resurrected by edo tensei cause its him, and yet it's not him! once madara is sealed, he would be stuck in this miserable state. tobi's old cause he was the same age as madara when he was created, a self-mirror, that would explain how kisame recognized him when orange-mask tobi revealed himself, the reason why he called him mizukage is cause kisame's first meeting was with long hair madara himself, madara was controlling mizukage at the time, a jinchuriki. i'd say tobi and madara lived at the same time for a period of time, that would also explain why tobi had short hair when he fought minato, long madara-like hair when he met itachi around 6 years later (same mask, different height), then short hair tobi again, who mentions he's uchiha madara at his first-shown conversation with pein.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 7, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Tobi can't be elder son since he said that ''theres no hope anymore in the world'' which strongly implies that Tobi was a good guy, which fits exactly in Shisui, Obito, RS, younger son candidates.



That doesn't convince me. There are thousands of hints pointing on the elder son. One sentense won't refute that.
That elder son guy is thousands of years old. He saw all wars, all pain in the world, who should it know better than him.
Shisui and Obito don't match with the timeline, have massive plot holes and it there would be no reason for them to change their minds. Obito saw the pain of the ninja world war before he died -> Why this sudden change of mind? He knew he would die and supported his friends in the moment he died. If he survived, why should he hate them. He tried to kill his Sensei, who always supported him and the village. Obito thinks like Naruto and you can not compare Naruto and Tobi. Similar for Shisui, he thinks the same way as Naruto. Furthermore he gave away both his eyes. The "I saw the pain of the world and want to change it" story is covered by Nagato. Tobi won't have the exact same motives as Nagato.
RS wouldnn't have the motive. Younger son wouldn't have the possibility to either survive or fulfill the Mugen Tsukoyomi, since the elder son inherited the RS' chakra and eyes. Younger son can impossibly use such a strong sharingan based jutsu. He has no sharingan -> would need to implant one -> would need tons of chakra to use it -> has no chakra



Ch1p said:


> Something that crossed my mind as I re-subscribed this thread.
> 
> Maybe Tobi is literally no one but a role or idea being played. Rikudo's children's feud never got resolved and there seems to be this idea that every now and then, an inheritor of each will will fight against the other. Maybe at some point, the older child's inheritor created Tobi, and this role has been passed down for an indefinite number of generations, in some general way. The manga does seem fond of playing about with destined ones, so this is right up that alley. It would tie the cycle of hatred, the chosen ones BS, why Tobi might have been several people in the past, why Tobi says he's no one (he's an _idea_), why he wants to be complete. By proxy, it would explain Naruto and the tailed beasts' convo with Naruto would also be interesting, and not just a shameless plushie campaign. Furthermore, it would give Sasuke the opportunity to step up and be the manga's final villain, as the next Tobi, after inheriting the role from whoever's Tobi right now.



Or the elder son simply still lives 



> This as well, in general. It needs to be someone who'll cause an impact, otherwise why all this mystery surrounding his face. At this point _who_ can be that person?



The elder son ;D



> I don't dislike this, but why would a reveal would be so important?



Because he uses Obitos body, who is in fact well known. Look


----------



## ch1p (May 7, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Or the elder son simply still lives
> 
> The elder son ;D



Why don't I like the elder son? Because it's only one part of a duo. For the elder son to have some impact, the younger one should be alive as well. Thematically, it's not as good to have the elder son still alive and kicking and the younger one being represented by an inheritor of his will. Although, an argument can be made for newer generations surpassing the old.



> Because he uses Obitos body, who is in fact well known. Look



The thing is, why didn't Tobi take over an Uchiha body when the massacre occurred? There would be plenty of fresh and healthy bodies there, Obito's was mangled.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 7, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> Why don't I like the elder son? Because it's only one part of a duo. For the elder son to have some impact, the younger one should be alive as well. Thematically, it's not as good to have the elder son still alive and kicking and the younger one being represented by an inheritor of his will. Although, an argument can be made for newer generations surpassing the old.



He is the final villain. We don't know how he will be beaten. Maybe Sasuke and Naruto, Sasuke, the younger Uchiha, beats the old. Naruto, who has the will of the younger son, beats his "brother".



Ch1p said:


> The thing is, why didn't Tobi take over an Uchiha body when the massacre occurred? There would be plenty of fresh and healthy bodies there, Obito's was mangled.



That's actually the first *good* argument that I ever heard, that speaks against that theory. But there could be reasons too.
I'd say because he already knew, whom he wanted to be his next body: Itachi
Maybe the transfer takes too much chakra and would it make impossible for him to ever take over Itachi.


----------



## McLover (May 7, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> He is the final villain. We don't know how he will be beaten. Maybe Sasuke and Naruto, Sasuke, the younger Uchiha, beats the old. Naruto, who has the will of the younger son, beats his "brother".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol @ Ch1p & Crystaltiger
are you guys srsly discussing about the possibility of tobi being obito 
oh read my post plz ffs -.-'
give me 1 reason tobi would want obito's body? power? tobi doesn't fight. eyes? he has over 100 of these. not like he's progressing them to get rinnegan but he went in trouble fighting konan to get the rinnegan back when having all these sharingans and hashirama living sells it would be easy to make one. and how the F^&# would obito create the akatsuki and give HIS rinnegan to nagato? are you kidding me? 
did you ever think of their age difference in the timeline? 
and if what you believe that he's only using the body for the body itself then there's still no point of tobi being obito ^^ absolutely none


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 7, 2012)

Tobi being someone in Obito's body is stupid, and we know for a fact it isn't true.

Tobi's made of Zetsu goo, whoever he is it's likely he isn't in his original body anymore.


----------



## ch1p (May 7, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> He is the final villain. We don't know how he will be beaten. Maybe Sasuke and Naruto, Sasuke, the younger Uchiha, beats the old. Naruto, who has the will of the younger son, beats his "brother".



Would that be enough? It is the resolution of this manga after all. I don't want to give Kishi more credit than he's due though, so that might work.



> That's actually the first *good* argument that I ever heard, that speaks against that theory. But there could be reasons too.
> I'd say because he already knew, whom he wanted to be his next body: Itachi
> Maybe the transfer takes too much chakra and would it make impossible for him to ever take over Itachi.



Whom he wanted might have been Itachi, but going around with a mangled body doesn't seem very smart. If anything, he should have switched it already at the massacre.

You could use crow's kotoamatsukami time limit. I always thought such a time limit was so random, but an argument can be made it was introduced so the idea that Tobi could only switch bodies every x years wouldn't come as random as I thought that tech was.

Wouldn't the idea of body switching be too reminiscent of Oro though? Or could we argument Oro's own technique is buildup for Tobi's?



McLover said:


> lol @ Ch1p & Crystaltiger
> are you guys srsly discussing about the possibility of tobi being obito


I don't believe on Tobito.  However, I agree with the general idea that it needs to be someone that will cause an impact (like mysterious coffin was), otherwise why hide it? Obito fits that impact role for an important member of the manga, who's said to have some important spotlight soon, Kakashi (by proxy, Naruto). While I don't agree with it being Obito, it doesn't mean I don't see the merits of the arguments being used, which I do.



First Tsurugi said:


> Tobi being someone in Obito's body is stupid, and we know for a fact it isn't true.
> 
> Tobi's made of Zetsu goo, whoever he is it's likely he isn't in his original body anymore.



What if the goo somewhat copied Obito's DNA?


----------



## Nadroj (May 7, 2012)

@Crystaltiger: I can't seem to see any of your images, but I did find on Ch 577 Madara does say "After my brother died..." Unless Izuna trick his brother than secretly worked with him without ... ... .. not buying it.

As for Zetsu and Tobi relationships, the chapter which Tobi apears (280?) Zetsu doesn't seem to actually know Tobi.

And Tobi's gooey arm came from Minato's rasengan blow, didn't it?

Um, and, also, in Ch 551 Kabuto says, "Well, I've got to find a way to make the Jinchuuriki mine without Madara finding out," so um... I really don't like the Madara clone thing...


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 7, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> What if the goo somewhat copied Obito's DNA?



Then it can presumably do it for other people too, rendering the entire point of using Obito's body in the first place moot.



Nadroj said:


> Um, also, in Ch 551 Kabuto says, "Well, I've got to find a way to make the Jinchuuriki mine without Madara finding out," so um... I really don't like the Madara clone thing...



Kabuto doesn't know who Tobi really is.

He calls him Madara because, as he said, that's what Tobi goes by these days.


----------



## Nadroj (May 7, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Kabuto doesn't know who Tobi really is.
> 
> He calls him Madara because, as he said, that's what Tobi goes by these days.



Kabuto knows Madara is dead. I don't want to support a Madara clone thing, but I'm not going to ignore this. It doesn't seem logical that Kabuto would still be calling him Madara, unless of course Kishi made a mistake there.


----------



## ch1p (May 7, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Then it can presumably do it for other people too, rendering the entire point of using Obito's body in the first place moot.



There might be one reason. The characters that got EMS got their eyes from their brothers. There was an old theory floating about that Obito was Shisui's bro, as they look somewhat alike. Tobi was interested in Shisui's eye for accessing kotoamatsukami and he was disappointed at Danzo destroying it, so if EMS is more powerful when they come from siblings, then there would be a reason to copy Obito's DNA. Fanfiction territory, but then again, this whole thread is.


----------



## Nadroj (May 7, 2012)

I think right now, I'm just brainstorming whatever because I'm out of clues as to who Tobi is.

Kabuto has said that he's working for HIM, who Madara is aware of. Madara seemed to have a plan with HIM to use Nagato's Rinnegan to bring him back to life. Tobi was annoyed that Nagato used his powers for others, said something like "that was suppose to be for me." Tobi may be some delusional person, and Kabuto is the assistant to someone special. It seems that Kabuto's loyalty is only to Orochimaru, but I don't know if the dude can pop up any more...
I don't really know if Tobi can be a character that's already been introduced anymore.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 7, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> Kabuto knows Madara is dead. I don't want to support a Madara clone thing, but I'm not going to ignore this. It doesn't seem logical that Kabuto would still be calling him Madara, unless of course Kishi made a mistake there.



I literally explained exactly why he called him Madara, it is the name he uses. 

Kabuto said it himself.



Ch1p said:


> There might be one reason. The characters that got EMS got their eyes from their brothers. There was an old theory floating about that Obito was Shisui's bro, as they look somewhat alike. Tobi was interested in Shisui's eye for accessing kotoamatsukami and he was disappointed at Danzo destroying it, so if EMS is more powerful when they come from siblings, then there would be a reason to copy Obito's DNA. Fanfiction territory, but then again, this whole thread is.



If the entire reason for using Obito's body was so that he could acquire EMS from Shisui's eyes, then he would have put a lot more effort into acquiring those eyes.



Nadroj said:


> I don't really know if Tobi can be a character that's already been introduced anymore.



It has to be, that's why his face has been hidden from us this entire time.


----------



## McLover (May 7, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> I don't believe on Tobito.  However, I agree with the general idea that it needs to be someone that will cause an impact (like mysterious coffin was), otherwise why hide it? Obito fits that impact role for an important member of the manga, who's said to have some important spotlight soon, Kakashi (by proxy, Naruto). While I don't agree with it being Obito, it doesn't mean I don't see the merits of the arguments being used, which I do.
> 
> 
> 
> -What if the goo somewhat copied Obito's DNA?



the fact that tobi has madara's aged face is revealing to the secrets of madara being still alive, and when resurrected, a secret of that tobi isn't madara, revealing madara's body secret (sage body) and that his final fight with hashirama was on purpose, and revealing the existence of rinnegan and it's powers and creating powers. if that's not mysterious, it's likewise not mysterious for me naruto taking off the mask and finding it's obito, a guy that he doesn't know, nor does anybody, probably not even kakashi. comparing from what we saw so far of his face, he's so old, kakashi isn't that old, there's a big age difference. my theory -rather facts- make a whole lots more sense 

and just adding to my theory more credit and answering your question, zetsu is an earth style or whatever, the point is he can travel also, not as fast as tobi though, probably cause tobi is only white zetsu apparently he can travel faster and lighter. zetsu can make an exact copy of whoever he touches (Bee vs zetsu kisame) they couldn't even sense he was a fake, they checked and thought he was dead.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 7, 2012)

McLover said:


> lol @ Ch1p & Crystaltiger
> are you guys srsly discussing about the possibility of tobi being obito
> oh read my post plz ffs -.-'
> give me 1 reason tobi would want obito's body? power? tobi doesn't fight. eyes? he has over 100 of these. not like he's progressing them to get rinnegan but he went in trouble fighting konan to get the rinnegan back when having all these sharingans and hashirama living sells it would be easy to make one. and how the F^&# would obito create the akatsuki and give HIS rinnegan to nagato? are you kidding me?
> ...



Read carefully, we are discussing about Tobi being the Elder Son.




First Tsurugi said:


> Tobi being someone in Obito's body is stupid, and we know for a fact it isn't true.
> 
> Tobi's made of Zetsu goo, whoever he is it's likely he isn't in his original body anymore.



That's not true. We don't know if he is made completely of goo. Obito's body was half crushed, he could have replaced that half with goo. It's neither stupid nor there is a proof that it isn't true.



Ch1p said:


> Wouldn't the idea of body switching be too reminiscent of Oro though? Or could we argument Oro's own technique is buildup for Tobi's?


I don't think so, If Tobi is the elder son, he is older than Oro. I think Oro's body switch is based on Tobi's. All justus of Oro are based on others (Edo Tensei -> 2nd Hokage)


----------



## McLover (May 7, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> @Crystaltiger: I can't seem to see any of your images, but I did find on Ch 577 Madara does say "After my brother died..." Unless Izuna trick his brother than secretly worked with him without ... ... .. not buying it.
> 
> As for Zetsu and Tobi relationships, the chapter which Tobi apears (280?) Zetsu doesn't seem to actually know Tobi.
> 
> ...



can you explain the "tobi's gooey arm came from minato's rinnegan"
not only his arm, but his whole body teleports, or he travels fast, that's zetsu's ability as well. i think his whole body is zetsu. 
his face not being white doesn't matter, kisame's zetsu copy also was exactly the same as kisame himself, no goo no nothing
zetsu also has a good sense, he could sense bee and naruto leaving the island turtle, that would explain how tobi knew and waited for kushina's giving birth day. imo.


----------



## Nadroj (May 7, 2012)

McLover said:


> can you explain the "tobi's gooey arm came from minato's rinnegan"
> not only his arm, but his whole body teleports, or he travels fast, that's zetsu's ability as well. i think his whole body is zetsu.
> his face not being white doesn't matter, kisame's zetsu copy also was exactly the same as kisame himself, no goo no nothing
> zetsu also has a good sense, he could sense bee and naruto leaving the island turtle, that would explain how tobi knew and waited for kushina's giving birth day. imo.



Yeah, my wording is terrible there.
So when Minato attacked Tobi, his rasengan made contact and I'm pretty sure destroyed Tobi's arm. There was no white goo or anything. I'm pretty sure Tobi just has a replacement arm, or once had a body.


----------



## McLover (May 7, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Read carefully, we are discussing about Tobi being the Elder Son.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ok sorry, still not much evidence to him being the elder son, that would take a total of 150 chapters of explanation lol
tobi is full zetsu, he can travel and teleport like zetsu does, even faster cause he's all white, no black, not original. it doesn't make any sense to me why he would look for that very kid's HALF body and fix the other half with zetsu??

lol oro is a complete plot, he knows almost every jutsu and is a maniac scientific xD miss that snake boy


----------



## Yachiru (May 7, 2012)

Obito forever <3

That, or he's the Juubi.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 7, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> That's not true. We don't know if he is made completely of goo. Obito's body was half crushed, he could have replaced that half with goo. It's neither stupid nor there is a proof that it isn't true.



Both of Tobi's arms are made of Zetsu goo, so I see no reason to think it isn't true for every part of his body.

If Tobi were using Obito's body but ended up replacing most or all of it with Zetsu stuff then why even use Obito's body in the first place?


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 7, 2012)

McLover said:


> ok sorry, still not much evidence to him being the elder son, that would take a total of 150 chapters of explanation lol
> tobi is full zetsu, he can travel and teleport like zetsu does, even faster cause he's all white, no black, not original. it doesn't make any sense to me why he would look for that very kid's HALF body and fix the other half with zetsu??
> 
> lol oro is a complete plot, he knows almost every jutsu and is a maniac scientific xD miss that snake boy



Dude... I told you. Read my theory if you want evidence. I listed it up there, and it would take 3-4 chapters to explain it. Less than it took to explain Kabuto backstory. 
If you still think, there is no evidence, then I can't help you. The theory was approved by many people, I won't cry for single people, who exclude it, because they don't like it for reasons like "It would take 150 chapters" while I wrote it in *one* reply. Or say,that there is no evidence, while I wrote entire sites of evidence.

If he was made of goo, why would he wear a mask-.-




First Tsurugi said:


> Both of Tobi's arms are made of Zetsu goo, so I see no reason to think it isn't true for every part of his body.
> 
> If Tobi were using Obito's body but ended up replacing most or all of it with Zetsu stuff then why even use Obito's body in the first place?



Same question: Why the mask?
We only saw one arm made of goo.
Because he needed a body, and goo is not a body. He needs a living being. Same for Oro, he needed bodies to live on and not some goo.


----------



## McLover (May 7, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> Yeah, my wording is terrible there.
> So when Minato attacked Tobi, his rasengan made contact and I'm pretty sure destroyed Tobi's arm. There was no white goo or anything. I'm pretty sure Tobi just has a replacement arm, or once had a body.



no no i know what you meant, your wording isn't terrible dude but..
what's the point of that? 
i cant think of one.. 
as for your previous same post, of zetsu not knowing tobi, im not sure of that but one thing for sure is that he knows tobi has a plan and might also know what the plan is when he said: "that went very well and according to the plan" after tobi had a conv. with sasuke to go to the kages summit. with that been said it makes me highly doubt that he doesn't know who tobi is otherwise he wouldn't know the plan and obey tobi and stay in akatsuki ect ect


----------



## Nadroj (May 7, 2012)

Chapter 503



That looks like a real, not goo, arm to me.


----------



## ch1p (May 7, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> If the entire reason for using Obito's body was so that he could acquire EMS from Shisui's eyes, then he would have put a lot more effort into acquiring those eyes.



If Zetsu can replicate a whole body through DNA, then even a mangled eye would do. While adquiring a good eye would be more practical, since he could use it from the get go, getting a sample would also be important (although time would be needed for it to grow). Shisui's body was never found after all, so he can only get it through those eyes. I always though the vanishing body had more to it.

I'm only brainstorming. I don't believe in Tobito either.  The whole thing falls apart imo because there were plenty of Uchihas at the massacre for Tobi to use, why would he keep the mangled body?



> It has to be, that's why his face has been hidden from us this entire time.



I think this is something we should all agree with.



McLover said:


> the fact that tobi has madara's aged face is revealing to the secrets of madara being still alive, and when resurrected, a secret of that tobi isn't madara, revealing madara's body secret (sage body) and that his final fight with hashirama was on purpose, and revealing the existence of rinnegan and it's powers and creating powers. if that's not mysterious, it's likewise not mysterious for me naruto taking off the mask and finding it's obito, a guy that he doesn't know, nor does anybody, probably not even kakashi. comparing from what we saw so far of his face, he's so old, kakashi isn't that old, there's a big age difference. my theory -rather facts- make a whole lots more sense



Kakashi is there with Naruto. It's enough to see the distress of his teacher, especially since he knows how Kakashi feels about losing his best friend. It resonates with his own fears (don't forget Kakashi and Obito would fight each other, either as enemies or Obito as a pawn, much like Naruto's own situation with Sasuke) as well.



> and just adding to my theory more credit and answering your question, zetsu is an earth style or whatever, the point is he can travel also, not as fast as tobi though, probably cause tobi is only white zetsu apparently he can travel faster and lighter. zetsu can make an exact copy of whoever he touches (Bee vs zetsu kisame) they couldn't even sense he was a fake, they checked and thought he was dead.



In reality, the copy might be superficial. It would take the shape of someone, but not It might not be able to replicate its DNA. What I meant was if it could really replicate DNA. Or was it stated that's what it does? I need to re-read. Details such as this escape me. D:



Crystaltiger said:


> I don't think so, If Tobi is the elder son, he is older than Oro. I think Oro's body switch is based on Tobi's. All justus of Oro are based on others (Edo Tensei -> 2nd Hokage)



When I said wouldn't it be a copy / buildup, I meant from the reader's perspective, not from a timeline one.


----------



## NW (May 7, 2012)

loool3 said:


> That was also real Madara obviously, i am just waiting for the retard flashbacks to end so Madara can go there to Itachi and their backstories will be revealed.
> After this people gonna support the Tobi is a Madara clone because Kisame reffered to the long haired masked man having the same face as Tobi, but it won't go like that since Kisame reffered him as that just because Tobi took Madara's role.
> As far as Kakashi is there theres no better candidate besides Obito, and Shisui since he was incredible famous. (Even Bee knew him)
> 
> ...



Wow. O___O Awesome post. This opened up alot of things. I never thought that Kisame could have called Tobi Madara just because he took on the mantle of it. It actually makes alot of sense. And the "friend" lessons thing you mentioned is also a good point. I also think it could be Shisui since Shisui was in Root and since he's so famous, everyone there should know him. Plus, Tobi being Itachi's friend might just be the final straw to make Sasuke re-snap(since he seems to have calmed down during the kabuto fight). Also, Shisui's view of a shinobi "A nameless shinobi who protects peace from the shadows". Tobi is in a sense, nameless since we don't know his real identity. And, his view of peace is evil and shrouded in darkness/shadows. So, logically and thematically, Obito and Shisui are the most logical choices. Although I'm primarily on Obito since there are three panels that prove he has no wrinkles/scars on the left face side.



jacamo said:


> in fact, nothing can "prove" it cant be Kagami... nothing



How 'bout the fact that his eyelids look nothing like Tobi's. they are WAAAAAY to long. Also, his eyeshape isn't like Tobi's either. You only think it is because you saw it from an angle, but there is a panel later on in the chapter in which a full on frontal view of his face is shown and it doesn't really look like Tobi's. His eyebrows also don't look like Tobi's. 


Of course, these could just be looking too much into it since that was a faraway view and the image of him on the title page was at an angle. Basically, I'm half thinking it IS Kagami and half thinking it's not........




MaskedMan88 said:


> The Uchiha Lineage
> 
> Madara
> Kagami
> ...




Interesting. Haven't thought about that. Nice theory!!!!


----------



## Menacing Eyes (May 7, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> Chapter 503
> 
> 
> 
> That looks like a real, not goo, arm to me.



It's a goo arm. Look closely at the lower right of the top panel.


----------



## Raventhal (May 7, 2012)

Something weird about Tobi. Tobi has never used a technique that isn't doujutsu.  No ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu or etc.  Strictly Sharigan and Rinnegan techniques except when he stabbed Konan in the back.  

Is it possible that Tobi isn't a ninja? Unlikely but his Sharingan gives predictive abilities, time space abilities and phasing.  Anyone could be tough with those Uchiha eyes and Senju wood juice. The Sharingan never cuts off giving a good possibility that its not his. 

I used to be Tobi couldn't be Obito because he was too strong but really he only used eye techniques which could be natural.  Even Obito used fire release.


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (May 7, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> Chapter 503
> 
> That looks like a real, not goo, arm to me.



Look at the next page:


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 7, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Same question: Why the mask?



Cause his true identity is someone we'd recognize.



> We only saw one arm made of goo.



No, both of them are.

He's lost his right arm twice, once to Fu and Torune, and once to Konan, and his left arm once, after Minato Rasengan'd him.



> Because he needed a body, and goo is not a body. He needs a living being. Same for Oro, he needed bodies to live on and not some goo.



Why wouldn't he just goo-iffy his original body?



Ch1p said:


> If Zetsu can replicate a whole body through DNA, then even a mangled eye would do. While adquiring a good eye would be more practical, since he could use it from the get go, getting a sample would also be important (although time would be needed for it to grow). Shisui's body was never found after all, so he can only get it through those eyes. I always though the vanishing body had more to it.



I don't buy it. If the entire reason for using a specific body was to obtain those eyes I feel there would have been more emphasis put on it.

Instead it's treated as more of a "Couldn't get those eyes, oh well, time to move on."



> I'm only brainstorming. I don't believe in Tobito either.  The whole thing falls apart imo because there were plenty of Uchihas at the massacre for Tobi to use, why would he keep the mangled body?



Well Tobi using Obito's body is just one of the many variants of the Tobito theory. But I agree, that one is ridiculous.



Raventhal said:


> Something weird about Tobi. Tobi has never used a technique that isn't doujutsu.  No ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu or etc.  Strictly Sharigan and Rinnegan techniques except when he stabbed Konan in the back.
> 
> Is it possible that Tobi isn't a ninja? Unlikely but his Sharingan gives predictive abilities, time space abilities and phasing.  Anyone could be tough with those Uchiha eyes and Senju wood juice. The Sharingan never cuts off giving a good possibility that its not his.
> 
> I used to be Tobi couldn't be Obito because he was too strong but really he only used eye techniques which could be natural.  Even Obito used fire release.



He used a Doton technique back when he and Deidara fought Sasuke.

I think his lack of techniques that aren't Doujutsu related relates more to his fighting style and design than anything.

For example, he can't use Fire jutsu because the mask covers his face, but I wouldn't be surprised if once the mask is off he starts firing off some fireballs.


----------



## NW (May 7, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Something weird about Tobi. Tobi has never used a technique that isn't doujutsu.  No ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu or etc.  Strictly Sharigan and Rinnegan techniques except when he stabbed Konan in the back.
> 
> Is it possible that Tobi isn't a ninja? Unlikely but his Sharingan gives predictive abilities, time space abilities and phasing.  Anyone could be tough with those Uchiha eyes and Senju wood juice. The Sharingan never cuts off giving a good possibility that its not his.
> 
> I used to be Tobi couldn't be Obito because he was too strong but really he only used eye techniques which could be natural.  Even Obito used fire release.




Actually, Tobi has used more than eye techniques. He used that Earth Release Jutsu to burrow underground, remember? i believe it was called the "Hiding Like A Mole Technique".


----------



## tgm2x (May 7, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Actually, Tobi has used more than eye techniques. He used that Earth Release Jutsu to burrow underground, remember? i believe it was called the "Hiding Like A Mole Technique".



Wasn't it just Tobi's trolling hiding instability?


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 7, 2012)

tgm2x said:


> Wasn't it just Tobi's trolling hiding instability?



If you're asking if it was just Tobi phasing through the ground, the answer is no.

You can see earth being pushed away when Tobi pops his head out of the ground.


----------



## tgm2x (May 7, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> If you're asking if it was just Tobi phasing through the ground, the answer is no.
> 
> You can see earth being pushed away when Tobi pops his head out of the ground.



Could be genjutsu and stuff


----------



## NW (May 7, 2012)

Tobi's got to be Obito. He has no wrinkles/scars on his left face side. There are a total of 4 panels that support this. If i find any more than I'll post them.

LINK 1: next page:
LINK 2: next page:
LINK 3: next page:
LINK 4: next page:


Also, during his fight with Minato, Tobi was very familiar with how Minato's jutsu worked. he even explained the basics of it to Kushina:

LINK: next page:

And, he was surprised by Minato's Hiraishin No Jutsu, Level 2, which Obito had never seen before:

LINK: next page:

hope that clears things up. Obito FTW!


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 7, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Tobi's got to be Obito. He has no wrinkles/scars on his left face side. There are a total of 4 panels that support this. If i find any more than I'll post them.
> 
> LINK 1: next page:
> LINK 2: next page:
> ...



Yeah.. that's clearly Obito's *body*.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 7, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Yeah.. that's clearly Obito's *body*.



No it's clearly a Zetsu-goo modified body.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 7, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> No it's clearly a Zetsu-goo modified body.



YES a *modified* body.Obito's modified body.


----------



## McLover (May 7, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Look at the next page:



plus his LEFT arm was damaged during his fight with minato (check anime=zetsu arm)
he cut off his zetsu RIGHT arm during his fight with danzo's 2 assistants 
my theory still wins


----------



## McLover (May 7, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Dude... I told you. Read my theory if you want evidence. I listed it up there, and it would take 3-4 chapters to explain it. Less than it took to explain Kabuto backstory.
> If you still think, there is no evidence, then I can't help you. The theory was approved by many people, I won't cry for single people, who exclude it, because they don't like it for reasons like "It would take 150 chapters" while I wrote it in *one* reply. Or say,that there is no evidence, while I wrote entire sites of evidence.
> 
> If he was made of goo, why would he wear a mask-.-
> ...



sorry but.. BALONEY !


----------



## Derk101 (May 7, 2012)

well it makes sense that it could be Obito, since it can be inferred no one in the Uchia clan knew of Tobi. And from what i read i can understand that Obito didnt stand out in the clan at all, and no one else knew of the it except Minato, Rin, and Kakashi knew of Obito gaining his sharingan.


----------



## McLover (May 7, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> Kakashi is there with Naruto. It's enough to see the distress of his teacher, especially since he knows how Kakashi feels about losing his best friend. It resonates with his own fears (don't forget Kakashi and Obito would fight each other, either as enemies or Obito as a pawn, much like Naruto's own situation with Sasuke) as well.
> 
> 
> 
> In reality, the copy might be superficial. It would take the shape of someone, but not It might not be able to replicate its DNA. What I meant was if it could really replicate DNA. Or was it stated that's what it does? I need to re-read. Details such as this escape me. D:



i don't know what you're getting at..i dont know if it copies the dna or just makes a pure copy which sounds like flesh and bone including dna?

and oh, so tobi only hides his identity cause he's scared of kakashi? or what is it you're say  i keep discussing with you but u dont answer my questions in post 67


----------



## Nadroj (May 7, 2012)

For Tobitos: Reread the chapters where Tobi confronts Minato. Take note when Kakashi and his generation are being protected because they are small and still young. Obito would be the same age as Kakashi, but hes dead...


----------



## NW (May 7, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Yeah.. that's clearly Obito's *body*.





I have quite a few reasons to believe it's obito's soul as well. First, the one I posted above, about knowing the Hiraishin no Jutsu(man, i love that name). Also, here are some intriguing things that Tobi has said which lead me to believe that he must have had a severely F*cked up past in order to become like he is now:
Here's one, for example: next page:

He has no hope in him at all. It sounds like he was once good but something horrible hapened to him and he became devoid of hapiness, or hope, or any positive emotions for that matter.

Here's another example(taken from one of my favorite chapters): next page:
next page:

"I am No One. i don't want to be anyone. All i care about is completing the Moon's Eye Plan. This world is completely worthless. There is nothing left in it but misery." Obviously, he has been through so much that he no longer cares about himself. He has completely lost hope in the world.

Here's one more: next page:

"There IS no peace. There can be NO hope. Nagato only believed in Naruto to try to comfort his own pitiful existence."

    So, this leads me to conclude that after somehow getting out of those rocks, obito saw that Kakashi failed to protect Rin. The loss of the girl he loved must have majorly pissed him off and made him a wreck, and also, he gave kakashi his birthright in order to protect her. After seeing al the other horrors that war has brought, and being told the truth by Madara, i can see madara being able to corrupt him into what he is today. That being said, I hope this whole "It can't be obito's soul!" argument is done.


----------



## ch1p (May 7, 2012)

McLover said:


> i don't know what you're getting at..i dont know if it copies the dna or just makes a pure copy which sounds like flesh and bone including dna?



As I said, it depends on what the technique actually does. Is Zetsu just a shape shifter or does he replicate DNA for real.



> and oh, so tobi only hides his identity cause he's scared of kakashi? or what is it you're say  i keep discussing with you but u dont answer my questions in post 67



Not because Tobi's scared, but because he doesn't want to be recognised. I don't believe Tobi's Obito, so I don't see why should I answer those questions.  I said I was only brainstorming.


----------



## McLover (May 7, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Yeah.. that's clearly Obito's *body*.





TobiUchiha111 said:


> Tobi's got to be Obito. He has no wrinkles/scars on his left face side. There are a total of 4 panels that support this. If i find any more than I'll post them.
> 
> LINK 1: next page:
> LINK 2: next page:
> ...



ok

1) obito died at age 13 (), and only 2 years passed before tobi showed (). but tobi seemed older and fairly way more intelligent and experienced than kakashi. how could that happen in 2 years?   

2) why would obito want to crush konoha when he believed someone leaving a friend is worse than scum?

3) how could obito obtain the rinnegan so easily in 2 years, while legendary ninja uchiha madara went into trouble fighting hashirama for his rinnegan? 

4) NOTICE that nagato ALREADY had his rinnegan in the third ninja war, 1 year after obito's death, when kakashi was made a junin at the time. so how did obito give the rinnegan to nagato?

5) how could obito know so much about the uchiha history?
6) how could obito know orochimaru?
7) where did obito collect all these sharingans? 
8) why does obito know so much about madara and his brother when he wasn't even born?
9) how could someone like obito who barely awakened his sharingan use a technique like izanagi? 
10) based on 9, how did obito get hashirama's cells to use izanagi?
11) based on 4, how did obito awaken his mangekyou sharingan without killing his best friend kakashi?
12) how could obito know how to control the kyuubi so effectively well?
13) how does obito know how to use gedo mazo?
14) if obito by epic miracle awakened his rinnegan, or had rinnegan given to him by madara, why did madara mention brat nagato instead of obito?
15) why there was no mention of obito for dozens and dozens and dozens of chapters up until now?

more questions?


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I have quite a few reasons to believe it's obito's soul as well. First, the one I posted above, about knowing the Hiraishin no Jutsu(man, i love that name). Also, here are some intriguing things that Tobi has said which lead me to believe that he must have had a severely F*cked up past in order to become like he is now:
> Here's one, for example: a five-minute limit
> 
> He has no hope in him at all. It sounds like he was once good but something horrible hapened to him and he became devoid of hapiness, or hope, or any positive emotions for that matter.
> ...



I never said "It can't be obito's soul!", I only said that it's also possible that it's only his body, because these reasons also match for the elder son:

 He is the origin of jutsus and old as shit. He knows a lot of stuff. Why shouldn't he know the Hiraishin no Jutsu?
 No hope -> Hoped to be the RS' inheritor -> "betrayed" by his own father
 He is noone -> Same as 2nd, he lost to his brother -> worthless for his father, he knows that the only way to beat the Senju is the Mugen Tsukoyomi
 No peace -> He saw all kind of wars. He saw more pain than Nagato or anyone else. 
 I don't say it's impossible that Tobi is Obito. I just say that it's also as possible as Tobi being the Elder Son, when you watch the facts and the 



McLover said:


> ok
> 
> 1) obito died at age 13 (), and only 2 years passed before tobi showed (). but tobi seemed older and fairly way more intelligent and experienced than kakashi. how could that happen in 2 years?



Because it is only his body and as we already mentioned a thousand times it is modified with goo. He seems older because he is thousands of years old. He seems more intelligent and experienced than Kakashi, because he is the Elder Son. The origin of the Uchiha.



> 2) why would obito want to crush konoha when he believed someone leaving a friend is worse than scum?



Because his body is controled by the Elder Son.



> 3) how could obito obtain the rinnegan so easily in 2 years, while legendary ninja uchiha madara went into trouble fighting hashirama for his rinnegan?



The Elder Son inherited the eyes of his father. The eyes of the RS' are the Rinnegan -> he had it from the very beginning.



> 4) NOTICE that nagato ALREADY had his rinnegan in the third ninja war, 1 year after obito's death, when kakashi was made a junin at the time. so how did obito give the rinnegan to nagato?



The elder son had the Rinnegan, but couldn't keep it in Obito's body, because it was to weak (it was crushed) so he searched for someone to conserve it for him. -> Nagato 
That's the reason why Nagato gets the Rinnegan shortly after Obito died.
Later he takes it back with the words "these eyes were mine to begin with" because he inherited them from his daddy -> RS



> 5) how could obito know so much about the uchiha history?



Elder Son is the origin of all Uchiha.



> 6) how could obito know orochimaru?



Orochimaru was a Konoha ninja. Obito was too and the elder son was too. Furthermore Tobi is the founder of Akatsuki and Oro was a member of them.



> 7) where did obito collect all these sharingans?



Really???? Dude.. Tobi helped Itachi to kill his entire clan. Whoever Tobi is, there he got the eyes.



> 8) why does obito know so much about madara and his brother when he wasn't even born?



Because he was born thousands of years before Madara. *The Elder Son was Madara.* Read my theory for that story.



> 9) how could someone like obito who barely awakened his sharingan use a technique like izanagi?



Elder Son -> first guy in the world with a Sharingan



> 10) based on 9, how did obito get hashirama's cells to use izanagi?



He was Madara (spot 8th) so he fought hashirama.



> 11) based on 4, how did obito awaken his mangekyou sharingan without killing his best friend kakashi?



The mangekyou is not awaken by killing one's best friend, but by suffering from the pain of losing him. Either the elder son lost his best friend or the pain of losing his father (RS) or behing "betrayed" by him was enough.



> 12) how could obito know how to control the kyuubi so effectively well?



Elder Son -> origin of the sharingan -> knows what he can do



> 13) how does obito know how to use gedo mazo?



His father is the RS. He should know this stuff



> 14) if obito by epic miracle awakened his rinnegan, or had rinnegan given to him by madara, why did madara mention brat nagato instead of obito?



Because he doesn't know that Tobi is Obito at the moment. When Madara lived the elder son made use of Madara's body and changed it about 3 more times before he took the body of Obito. Madara was pretty much dead by that time.



> 15) why there was no mention of obito for dozens and dozens and dozens of chapters up until now?



Because it's only his body and noone in the Narutoverse thinks that Tobi is Obito. There was simply no reason the mention him.



> more questions?



Come at me bro ;D


----------



## NW (May 8, 2012)

McLover said:


> ok
> 
> 1) obito died at age 13 (), and only 2 years passed before tobi showed (). but tobi seemed older and fairly way more intelligent and experienced than kakashi. how could that happen in 2 years?
> 
> ...



Daaaaaaaaaamn, dude. You really hate this theory O________O Anyways.....

1) Madara or black Zetsu trained him, probably. And, he didn't seem to be THAT experienced. I mean, he got his ass kicked by Minato.....

2) That's the twist. We don't KNOW why he's doing this. If we did, it would be a giveaway. His motivation can be revealed after the mask comes off

3) What are you talking about???? Tobi didn't even have the rinnegan when he fought Minato

4) I dunno. Kishi could come up with something for that. Besides, I'm pretty sure that it was Madara who gave Nagato the rinnegan.

5) He studied it, obviously. He did seem to be very proud of his clan, after all.

6) Who knows. I don't really think it's impossible for them to have met.

7) Uchiha massacre.

8) Madara or Zetsu told him about it. That, or he studied it.

9) All that's required for Izanagi is Uchiha and Senju DNA. So, it's very possible.

10) He implanted Zetsu into him to repair himself

11) All you need to awaken MS is to experience the feeling of losing a close friend. obito truly thought he was gonna die and that he would never see his friends again. The pain of this loss caused the MS to awaken. Remember when he said: "I just wish that I could have spent more time with everyone."?

12) All you need to control Kurama is senju and Uchiha DNA. obito would have both, as I explained in point #10

13) Madara or Zetsu taught him.

14) I don't get the point you're trying to make...... Also, Tobi stole Nagato's rinnegan. He never "awakened" it.

15) _Chapter 223_ 

And, if he was mentioned too often, that would make him too overexposed.



McLover said:


> more questions?





Crystaltiger said:


> Come at me bro ;D


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

Looks like Obito and Elder Son theory still remain unchallenged theories


----------



## Punished Pathos (May 8, 2012)

Tobi is Izuna Uchiha.


----------



## NW (May 8, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> Tobi is Izuna Uchiha.




Could be. however, i tend to doubt it. Izuna's eyelids are too short to be Tobi's. And Izuna would be like 100 years old if he were still somehow alive. plus, Izuna's name was never even mentioned in the manga.


----------



## DoflaMihawk (May 8, 2012)

Most likely some failed Sharingan experiment.


----------



## Talis (May 8, 2012)

McLover said:


> ok
> 
> 1) obito died at age 13 (), and only 2 years passed before tobi showed (). but tobi seemed older and fairly way more intelligent and experienced than kakashi. how could that happen in 2 years?
> 
> ...


1: How many times didn't Kishi already said ''even foddier babies can controle Kyuubi with just both stupid Dna's, or kill your best friend and obtain one of the most haxed eyes of the whole world which also controles that pet.
2: Did you read/watch Naruto or didn't you?
Sasuke, Neji, Kakashi, Nagato, Itachi, Orochimaru,Konan, and the others 100 characters which i haven't mentioned which changed their personalities 360 degrees.
3: Obvious is Obvious, Tobi always talked in Madara's perspective, which is obvious since Madara had the Rinnegans. duh?
4: 3.
5: Read a dumb stone and you can reveal the whole past as Itachi, Sasuke did.
6: The most stupid question someone can ask since Orochimaru was f famous.
7: Uchiha massacre...
8: How did Itachi know it too..................?
9: Uchiha Senju DNaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, seriously why am i actually answering these stupid questions you don't have to be a professor to understand these things. 
11: He realised he was going to die and lose everything on his life right before his death, and if that isn't enough Rins death critical one hits your question anyways.
12: Answered on 1.
13: Good question.
14: Answered on 3.
15: If Kishi do that then it would be obvious as hell that Tobi will be Obito since there would be basically no reason to bring the story back of a ''death'' guy, it's the same thing as ''why doesn't Tobi act as a friend to Kakashi'' which would also be obvious as hell and spoiling the awesome masked mans identity for nothing, Kishi played with the most readers for so many years to make them believe that he is Madara but that was just his plan which is obvious and all these years would have been gone for nothing if he did some stupid moves like i mentioned above.

Read my next post i am gonna ask you some question on there since i am probably almost on the limit in here already lol.


----------



## NW (May 8, 2012)

Seriously, people. The only people that Tobi actually looks like are Madara and obito. Tobi's not Madara so he therefore must be Obito!


----------



## Nadroj (May 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Looks like Obito and Elder Son theory still remain unchallenged theories


Semantics. I still have trouble believing Elder Son would kill off Uchiha when they staged a coup d'?tat just because 





Crystaltiger said:


> he knew, that the coup d'etat would fail, because he was weak at that point of time


 Doesn't sounds strong for me. The Elder Brother's bitterness is towards the Senju, I don't believe that it would be that easy to betray blood.

Obito has always been out of the question for me. He died on a peaceful note. he wouldn't have the time to be so angry. His timeline also doesn't match up either. I've never been convinced. Yeah, I'm kind of a passive Tobito hater.

For me, Izuna is the only one able to have that hate-all-the-world bitterness. Now, Madara mentioned his brother died. Madara thought he himself was resurrected with the/Nagato's Rinnegan's Rinne Tensei. Tobi says that this technique was suppose to be used for himself. I'm not sure about the exact use of Rinne Tensei, whether or not the original body is needed, but Madara did manage to Hashirama's DNA. White Zetsu is based off of Hashirama. Tobi does have gooey arms like WZ.

So, this isn't as nice and neat as I thought it was but: Madara awakens Rinnegan before his death and brings back Izuna in a new/modified body then plots for him to convince Nagato to bring himself back using Rinne Tensei?


----------



## Talis (May 8, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> Semantics. I still have trouble believing Elder Son would kill off Uchiha when they staged a coup d'?tat just because  Doesn't sounds strong for me. The Elder Brother's bitterness is towards the Senju, I don't believe that it would be that easy to betray blood.
> 
> Obito has always been out of the question for me. He died on a peaceful note. he wouldn't have the time to be so angry. His timeline also doesn't match up either. I've never been convinced. Yeah, I'm kind of a passive Tobito hater.
> 
> ...


lol, Izuna looked exactly like the Itachi type to me.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Ok i basically got enough of some noobs always asking the same no sense question now it's my time to ask;


 
I am not a Tobito hater, but I still believe that all questions can also be answered, if Tobi is the Elder Son and it has no story plots as well as a bunch of hints. Ok let's go: (Remember this reply is writen of a guy, who asumes that Tobi is the Elder Son)



> 1: If Tobi isn't Obito then why did Kishi intrdoduces us a character with a 1 eye holed orange mask?


Because he is using *Obito's body.*


> 2: Why is Tobi's name smiliar to *O*bi*T*o?


Same as 1. He uses Obito's body. 


> 3: Why is Tobi's body messed up just as Obito's and merged/repaired with Zetsu goo?


See 1st and 2nd. We are talking about the *body* of Obito.


> 4: Why Kishi never explained the way Kakashi awakened his MS? (a non Uchiha awakening the MS by himself, you can't just leave that off paneled behind obviously)


Still has nothing to do with Tobi being Obito. Kakashi didn't meet Tobi until that point of time. Possibly hard training or the lose of someone.


> 5: Why does Tobi calls Kakashi by his name while he doesn't do that on characters like Yamato.


Kakashi is famous in the entire ninja world (known as copy ninja Kakashi), while Yamato is a root member with an obvious fake name.


> 6: Why is Kakashis years delayed like uhm what? 3 years already?
> And why did Kishi say again in his 2012 interview that Kakashi will happen this year for sure while Tobi's identity is almost up to be revealed?


Because Elder Son uses Obito's body.


> 7: Why is Kakashis MS technique same as Tobi?


It's not the same, it's similar. But again -> it's Obito's *body* 
Orochimaru wanted Sasuke as his new body, because of his sharingan. That means, that the reanimation jutsu of Orochimaru can use Kekkei Genkais. Same with Obito's Sharingan.


> *the most important one:*
> 8: For gods sake why is Tobi standing here in front of a wall which has a bunch of boulders.
> 
> Seriously what f wall has boulders on it like that? That's just a critical hint of Kishi for Tobi being Obito.



I never got that argument. He is in a cave. Caves contain boulders. That's the life.


> 9: Why Tobi's left face side doesn't have ''wrinkles''?
> Link removed (3rd panel)
> Link removed
> You can see his wrinkled on his left eye while you can't see it on his right.
> And this was exactly the reason why Kishi blackened out Tobi's right face side here; Link removed (And yes his left face is wrinkled cuz of that big rock, and no it wasn't crushed proof is here;





> as you can see the rock is just standing on it while it clearly didn't crush through his head while the lower part of the rock clearly did crush on his lower body parts on the pages after it.


Again: Hint for Tobi owning Obito's *body*, still doesn't proof that it's Obito himself.


> 10: Obito's stunned face after he saw Kakashi changed personality? Link removed


I wouldn't call this expression "stunned". Even if it was stunned. He fought Naruto and Bee and suddenly two other persons show up in a war that decides his life. Furthermore says Kakashi "I can't stand still when the boys of my team are doing the best" -> Tobi never helped his team -> discovers the strenght of Konoha -> teamwork


> 11: Why isn't Rins death explained?
> Because it will be after Tobito is revealed.


Agree in that point, because Kakashi will have questions after he sees that Tobi is the Elder Son *in Obito's body.*


> I probably have some more but they aren't around my head now, meanwhile you can take some years to counter my questions with some serious answers.


Took me 10 minutes :/


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2012)

lol Please someone explain to me if Tobi was Obito then how the hell did adult Tobi fought Minato in the past ? Obito and Kakashi were still kids back then and Tobi seemed to be a grown ass man.

Tobi is either Izuna, Kagami Uchiha,the original Zetsu or a Hashirama-Madara clone created by Madara to help him with his plans.


----------



## Talis (May 8, 2012)

†_Camorra_† said:


> lol Please someone explain to me if Tobi was Obito then how the hell did adult Tobi fought Minato in the past ? Obito and Kakashi were still kids back then and Tobi seemed to be a grown ass man.
> 
> Tobi is either Izuna, Kagami Uchiha,the original Zetsu or a Hashirama-Madara clone created by Madara to help him with his plans.


Sure, then explain me why a 13-15 years old Itachi was even tall as a 20+ years old Kisame when they were at the bridge discussing.
Then explain me why a 16 years old Naruto was even tall as a 22+ years old Minato when they were in the Kyuubi's seal.


----------



## NW (May 8, 2012)

Here's another clue that it's not just Obito's body, but his soul as well.

First up, is the panel that loool3 posted: Link removed

Here, Tobi is shocked by what Kakashi says. He may be reminiscing about his time on Team Minato.

And, here's a page from the end of that same chapter: Link removed

Notice what tobi says at the bottom. Kakashi was always telling obito to become stronger or be a better ninja and all that, so what tobi said there could have been a serious hint towards Tobito.


And also, how freaking sweet would it be if the final villain of the series was the former student of Naruto's father?


----------



## Rios (May 8, 2012)

Its not sweet at all. Naruto doesnt know shit about him.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Geez. You're really good at defending your theory.



So are you, I suppose a draw ;D




loool3 said:


> 10 minutes of ''elder son is using Obito's body''.
> If you call that some serious replies then i don't know what to say.
> Yours are pure assumptions, mine are purely facts.



Really dude?? Read your facts. Every one of them says that Tobi is Obito's body. Of course my answers are equal to each question, because they can be answered that easy. So you think it's more fact to say "Tobi is Obito because he wears a mask" than to say "Tobi is the elder son because he he wears a mask"?
That's not a fact, really dude. Everything in this thread is an assumption, because there is no proof. Otherwise we wouldn't discuss here. And if you want to discuss you should accept other people's theories. I do so, I am just saying that your "facts" all match on the elder son equally as they match for Obito.




?_Camorra_? said:


> lol Please someone explain to me if Tobi was Obito then how the hell did adult Tobi fought Minato in the past ? Obito and Kakashi were still kids back then and Tobi seemed to be a grown ass man.


He clearly is particullary made of goo. He is a manipulated body. So it could be  Obito. Or simply his body.



> Tobi is either Izuna, Kagami Uchiha,the original Zetsu or a Hashirama-Madara clone created by Madara to help him with his plans.



Izuna's death was confirmed by Madara, who obviously knows who is Tobi.
Kagami is a minor character, who is possibly, but still not nearly as possible as Obito or the elder son (or Shisui, who is still a valid option in some way, I think he is Zetsu)
Original Zetsu is possible, but I think it's more likely that he was made by Tobi. Otherwise there would be 3 to other possible options: made by the RS, made by Shisui, created in Madara's and Hashirama's clash -> none of this 3 options would fit for Tobi, it would also be lame in some way
Madara clone theory is sooo boring. There is Madara fighting the 5 kages with 25 clones. Isn't that enough for Madara fetishists? Take all 26 of them, but we don't need a number 27.


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Sure, then explain me why a 13-15 years old Itachi was even tall as a 20+ years old Kisame when they were at the bridge discussing.
> Then explain me why a 16 years old Naruto was even tall as a 22+ years old Minato when they were in the Kyuubi's seal.



Again with this shit, Kishi draws Tobi the same in the flashback, we've seen Tobi from a close perspective. Back then he couldnt have bein a kid.
Besides Obito doesent have wrinkles on his face like Tobi does.
Also if Tobi is Obito then how the hell did Kakashi see Obito and his father in the afterlife before he was revived by Nagato ?
Tobi isnt Obito, let it go already.


----------



## Talis (May 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> So are you, I suppose a draw ;D
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Show me a panel which says that elder son has the soul transfer techniique and your post will be a fact.


----------



## NW (May 8, 2012)

Rios said:


> Its not sweet at all. Naruto doesnt know shit about him.




Who cares? Naruto didn't know shit about Nagato and Nagato was Jiraiya (Naruto's godfather and mentor)'s student. Naruto doesn't have to recognize Tobi's true identity, because there are no logical candidates to be tobi that Naruto would recognize anyway.

You people need to start thinking who would also fit the best thematically. Obito is the only logical Tobi candidate left. i mean, no one else besides Madara even looks like Tobi!!!!


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Here's another clue that it's not just Obito's body, but his soul as well.
> 
> First up, is the panel that loool3 posted: Link removed
> 
> ...



He could also be shocked, because there just arrived two guys who he didn't expected. Furthermore he doesn't look shocked that much.

The other page: Kakashi is the copy ninja, he is famous for his sharingan. It could also just be a reference to his greatest strenght. Or something like "nice eye you got there kakashi, let me take it for my storage"


----------



## Talis (May 8, 2012)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Again with this shit, Kishi draws Tobi the same in the flashback, we've seen Tobi from a close perspective. Back then he couldnt have bein a kid.
> Besides Obito doesent have wrinkles on his face like Tobi does.
> Also if Tobi is Obito then how the hell did Kakashi see Obito and his father in the afterlife before he was revived by Nagato ?
> Tobi isnt Obito, let it go already.


So what even if this won't work theres always '' he's merged with Zetso goo which boost his height''. (And no the first post already confirmed that seize doesn't matter)
What wrinkle, if you mean the left side one then i suggest you to read the Kakashi gaiden again since that clearly was caused by the rock. 
And his face clearly didn't crush like i confirmed it in my previous post.
Tobi isn't Madara just let it go already. (oh wait)


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Show me a panel which says that elder son has the soul transfer techniique and your post will be a fact.



Show me a panel where we see that Obito did survive that stones and you post wil be a fact. ... There simply are no facts, that's the reason for us to discuss.



TobiUchiha111 said:


> You people need to start thinking who would also fit the best thematically. Obito is the only logical Tobi candidate left. i mean, no one else besides Madara even looks like Tobi!!!!



I do nothing else but thinking. And I agree, he is the only one who looks like it. But that doesn't cover what is inside of Obito. Which could be another ninja.


----------



## Talis (May 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Show me a panel where we see that Obito did survive that stones and you post wil be a fact. ... There simply are no facts, that's the reason for us to discuss.
> 
> 
> 
> I do nothing else but thinking. And I agree, he is the only one who looks like it. But that doesn't cover what is inside of Obito. Which could be another ninja.


It's already confirmed for me since Tobi has 50% curshed face/50% clean face, but anyways if you wan't to go truly in the fact then ur right then it's not a real fact, but it's still way ahead of your assumptions anyways.
Elder son has the soul transfer and used it on Obito's body is the same thing as saying ''Jiraiya had the soul transfer technique and he used it on Obito'', both have nothing to confirm/hint it, lol.


----------



## NW (May 8, 2012)

†_Camorra_† said:


> Again with this shit, Kishi draws Tobi the same in the flashback, we've seen Tobi from a close perspective. Back then he couldnt have bein a kid.
> Besides Obito doesent have wrinkles on his face like Tobi does.
> Also if Tobi is Obito then how the hell did Kakashi see Obito and his father in the afterlife before he was revived by Nagato ?
> Tobi isnt Obito, let it go already.



I believe loool3 answered your previous 2 points, but about seeing Obito in the afterlife, it was only in the anime that that happened. Which means that doesn't count. In the manga, we only see him REMEMBERING Obito and the others in his mind. He never actually canonically met or saw them in the afterlife.



loool3 said:


> Show me a panel which says that elder son has the soul transfer techniique and your post will be a fact.



Maybe the elder son is wher Oro got Fushi Tensei from o_____O

I don't support that idea but it sounds plausible.



Crystaltiger said:


> He could also be shocked, because there just arrived two guys who he didn't expected. Furthermore he doesn't look shocked that much.
> 
> The other page: Kakashi is the copy ninja, he is famous for his sharingan. It could also just be a reference to his greatest strenght. Or something like "nice eye you got there kakashi, let me take it for my storage"



very true.



loool3 said:


> So what even if this won't work theres always '' he's merged with Zetso goo which boost his height''. (And no the first post already confirmed that seize doesn't matter)
> What wrinkle, if you mean the left side one then i suggest you to read the Kakashi gaiden again since that clearly was caused by the rock.
> And his face clearly didn't crush like i confirmed it in my previous post.
> Tobi isn't Madara just let it go already. (oh wait)



It's preposterous to think that Zetsu goo would boost someone's height. He grew like that naturally. I agree on all other points, though.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It's already confirmed for me since Tobi has 50% curshed face/50% clean face


Yes that confirms that it's Obito's *body*. That doesn't say he is alive.



> Elder son has the soul transfer and used it on Obito's body is the same thing as saying ''Jiraiya had the soul transfer technique and he used it on Obito'', both have nothing to confirm/hint it, lol.



Ok let me explain it like this:


[#] The elder son is the inherit of RS' chakra. That means he is the origin of all ninjutsus.
 Orochimaru *researched* Jutsu's to *learn* them all. He doesn't invent Jutsus. That means all his jutsus are based on other jutsus: Edo Tensei (invented by the 2nd Hokage), Curse seal (Juugo's clan), Fushi Tensei (oh wait there isn't a charakter, who had the ability to live forever yet O.o so who could it be??? where did he get that informations? maybe because he worked together with Tobi in Akatsuki?)




TobiUchiha111 said:


> Maybe the elder son is wher Oro got Fushi Tensei from o_____O
> 
> I don't support that idea but it sounds plausible.



Thank you, that's what I am trying to explain and nobody listens.


----------



## Talis (May 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Yes that confirms that it's Obito's *body*. That doesn't say he is alive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't agree a lot on your second point, because it was said that Hiruzen also knew ''every jutsu'' but it's obvious that he couldn't use the MS/Rinnegan skills or he didn't even know about Oro's soul switch. 
And anyways theres also the point that Tobi was a good guy before since he said ''theres no hope in this world anymore'' that basically hints us that he was a good guy and acts now as a tard by trying to solve things with wars and world controling.


----------



## NW (May 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Yes that confirms that it's Obito's *body*. That doesn't say he is alive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What the hell? Seriously. this is the best evidence for this theory that I've seen yet. I like the part about how he worked together with Tobi in akatsuki and that's where he got fushi tensei from. At first i didn't really like your theory but it's actually making alot of sense now.


----------



## Talis (May 8, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Maybe the elder son is wher Oro got Fushi Tensei from o_____O
> 
> I don't support that idea but it sounds plausible.
> 
> ...


----------



## Talis (May 8, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> What the hell? Seriously. this is the best evidence for this theory that I've seen yet. I like the part about how he worked together with Tobi in akatsuki and that's where he got fushi tensei from. At first i didn't really like your theory but it's actually making alot of sense now.


Hahahaha. 
If you think a little then it should be obvious that Tobi actually might have learned it from the elder son instead since he was before Tobi.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I can't agree a lot on your second point, because it was said that Hiruzen also knew ''every jutsu'' but it's obvious that he couldn't use the MS/Rinnegan skills or he didn't even know about Oro's soul switch.


I don't get that point? I am just saying that Oro needed a base for his Fushi Tensei. And we don't know who layed that base.
MS/Rinnegan are Kekkei Genkais, they cannot be learned.



> And anyways theres also the point that Tobi was a good guy before since he said ''theres no hope in this world anymore'' that basically hints us that he was a good guy and acts now as a tard by trying to solve things with wars and world controling.



Could also mean that he just saw all wars in this world, because he is damn old. He has no hope since he was "betrayed" by his father eventhough he was the legitimate inherit.



TobiUchiha111 said:


> What the hell? Seriously. this is the best evidence for this theory that I've seen yet. I like the part about how he worked together with Tobi in akatsuki and that's where he got fushi tensei from. At first i didn't really like your theory but it's actually making alot of sense now.



Thanks




loool3 said:


> Hahahaha.
> If you think a little then it should be obvious that Tobi actually might have learned it from the elder son instead since he was before Tobi.


 Or he simply is Tobi!?!


----------



## dream (May 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I can't agree a lot on your second point, because it was said that Hiruzen also knew ''every jutsu'' but it's obvious that he couldn't use the MS/Rinnegan skills or he didn't even know about Oro's soul switch.



Actually, Sarutobi did know about Oro's soul switch technique. 

Link removed
Link removed


----------



## Talis (May 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> I don't get that point? I am just saying that Oro needed a base for his Fushi Tensei. And we don't know who layed that base.
> MS/Rinnegan are Kekkei Genkais, they cannot be learned.
> 
> 
> ...


So your actually saying that the elder son started bad then went good and went bad again?



Eternal Goob said:


> Actually, Sarutobi did know about Oro's soul switch technique.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed


Oh, didn't know that. 
Thought he just guessed it after seeing Oro in someone else body but looks like second link confirms it instead.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> So your actually saying that the elder son started bad then went good and went bad again?



No I am saying he started good until his father refused him the inherit. Then he switched bad and spreads quotes like "there is no hope" "senju sucks" and stuff like this.


----------



## NW (May 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> To be the honestly i believed that Orochimaru got his soul transfering technique by the real Madara (Kisames/Itachi's flashback)
> But i think
> Madara couldn't truly master it, just as Hiruzens way.
> Hiruzen cuts a bit of Orochimarus soul= no technique anymore.
> Madara puts a bit of his own soul in Obito= Obito getting Madara's knowledge but not his soul?



hmmmm.... Sounds plausible. i kinda like that idea.


----------



## McLover (May 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> I never said "It can't be obito's soul!", I only said that it's also possible that it's only his body, because these reasons also match for the elder son:
> 
> He is the origin of jutsus and old as shit. He knows a lot of stuff. Why shouldn't he know the Hiraishin no Jutsu?
> No hope -> Hoped to be the RS' inheritor -> "betrayed" by his own father
> ...



no i was just being ironic didn't realize someone would answer and be this stubborn!


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Inherit what?
> As far as i know the younger sons way was just peace for peace. xD
> And elder son war for peace.



Inheritance* I am sorry xD

That hasn't to mean that he is really bad. It just says that it's in his blood to lead wars.


----------



## Talis (May 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Inheritance* I am sorry xD
> 
> That hasn't to mean that he is really bad. It just says that it's in his blood to lead wars.


That still doesn't explain the ''he was a good guy'' thing lol.


----------



## NW (May 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> That still doesn't explain the ''he was a good guy'' thing lol.




Well, the elder son wanted peace too. So, I guess you could say that he was good. it's just that his method of obtaining peace was off because he thought strength was necessary for peace. His father chose the younger one over him, thus he bears a grudge and has a huge chip on his shoulders since he feels he has been robbed of his birthright.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

McLover said:


> so if obito's right side was crushed, why was there goo on his left arm damaged by minato? answer: maybe he lost it in a previous fight before minato's. FAIL. why did he have to get obito's body, there was too many other uchihas at the time, instead of taking obito's crushed body and "modify" it with goo? FAIL. tobi has the ability to keep bodies with his technique like he kept danzo's 2 assistants, he could use any body at any time as much times as he with, not a crushed body. FAIL again sorry


lol I don't like your constant repetition of the word fail, because I don't fail, let'S go: Tobi was in the war. He was deadly wounded, maybe poisened. It was worse than Obito's wounds so he took his body to survive. He had to act fast and had no people in his dimension. So he couldn't use some.



> sure, read up.



What's that supposed to mean. I am sure I read the manga in a more detailed way than you did, otherwise I wouldn't be able to create this comprehensive theory on my own. 



> >continuation< so of all the hundreds and hundreds bodies of the uchiha, he had to get obito's, he even risked and gave away his rinnegan for obito's sexy body.



Yes because it was war. He had to act fast to survive. I thought I mentioned that in my theory when I wrote it...



> and yes they were HIS (madara) eyes to begin with, HIS, not his daddy's. fail



O.o I am not talking about Madara. I talk about the elder son. It were his eyes to begin with. He got them from his father. That's basic knowledge. The one who keeps failing is obviously you...



> and he's dead



Who said that? Proof it!



> so the elder son knows orochimaru, not obito, since you suggest that elder son's soul is inside obito's body..meh..still obito doesnt know orochimaru cause he's dead



Why would Obito have to know Orochimaru? I feel like you didn't get the point of my theory. Oro was an akatsuki member, Tobi is that too. So they know each other.



> here's a question, why would the elder son of the sage, kill his clan, if he needs their bodies every 15 years to move his soul? but later cry for obito's half body and modify it? sounds epicly stupid.srsly doesnt make half a bit of sense to me. sorry mega fail. im really sorry but this irritates me -.-'



Because it was the only way to get Itachi's body. He wanted Itachi, who was the strongest Uchiha (besides Shisui who was dead at that point of time).
He didn't cry LATER the massacre was after Obito's death. 
-.- I think you are pretty cool for calling me stupid and a fail. You really have respect. Make up a better theory-.- Idiot.



> huh?? so the elder son jumps to a new body every 15 years, he helped itachi kill his clan, but he is madara, but is he dead? if not, how was he resurrected? does he want to be resurrected and live a short period and time like a normal human or keep jumping bodies over a thousands of years? contradicting



Read my theory-.-.-.-.- He WAS Madara. Madara died, he took a new body. He keeps jumping, I don't know what is contradicting.



> first guy in the world with a sharingan. true. why did he get the cells from hashirama a thousand year later instead of his brother younger brother who he already fought?



Because he either didn't know that he needs them or he did it and had the Rinnegan all those years. It's never said when he got it.



> considering obito's soul and theory "done" based on what you said so far, how was the elder son betrayed by the sage of the six paths, i never read or heard that story in the manga ??



What has that to do with Obito?? He awoke the MS because his dad made his brother the heiress. Is that this compicated? 



> elder son can sure control the bijuus, sure, so u agree obito cant do that. bingo



Possibly but though he is the elder son that's unimportant.



> if tobi gave his rinnegan to nagato, then at the time madara and hashirama fought nagato wasn't even born yet, everyone thought madara died in that battle, madara awakened his rinnegan shortly before his death, which you claim he reserved his body as a vessel to the elder son, but tobi already had rinnegan, why would he ask madara to fight hashirama to awaken his rinnegan? by this, there should be 2 pairs rinnegan by now, not 2. or do you mean madara was already the vessel/body for the elder son who wante to awaken his rinnegan then again the question why didn't he awaken the rinnegan when fighting his younger brother? he should already know the secrets, he's the son of the RS' right? he should know how to awaken the rinnegan..



I still think he wasn't able to awake it back than. Maybe there is another component to awake it. We simply know nothing about how to get the Rinnegan.



loool3 said:


> That still doesn't explain the ''he was a good guy'' thing lol.



What do you mean by good guy. It simply means he wasn't that obsessed by power before.




TobiUchiha111 said:


> Well, the elder son wanted peace too. So, I guess you could say that he was good. it's just that his method of obtaining peace was off because he thought strength was necessary for peace. His father chose the younger one over him, thus he bears a grudge and has a huge chip on his shoulders since he feels he has been robbed of his birthright.



You win. More pausible than my point.


----------



## McLover (May 8, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Daaaaaaaaaamn, dude. You really hate this theory O________O im very sorry to say yes with all my heart Anyways.....
> 
> 1) Madara or black Zetsu trained him, probably. And, he didn't seem to be THAT experienced. I mean, he got his ass kicked by Minato.....
> 
> ...



no it simply is because there's no need to mention him, cause he's not obito. kisame was the first akatsuki to appear and had couple fights for a long period before he died, but we still don't know much about him except the flashback of him and itachi and madara. it wouldn't overpose obito no


----------



## Nadroj (May 8, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Well, the elder son wanted peace too. So, I guess you could say that he was good. it's just that his method of obtaining peace was off because he thought strength was necessary for peace. His father chose the younger one over him, thus he bears a grudge and has a huge chip on his shoulders since he feels he has been robbed of his birthright.



Wow, so all of Tobi's madness came from his father favoring his brother? And because of that serious emotional trauma... ...

In leiu of more words: There seems to be more story than theory...


*Spoiler*: _for sh**s and giggles_ 







loool3 said:


> U mad cuz the guys around here are much smarter then you?
> U mad bro?


* Are you mad because the guys around here are much smarter than you? Are you mad, brother?


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> Wow, so all of Tobi's madness came from his father favoring his brother? And because of that serious emotional trauma... ...
> 
> In leiu of more words: There seems to be more story than theory...



It pretty much does:



The elder son was pretty pissed to cause a feud that still lasts, why shouldn't he want to reign the world? He wants to be like the RS who was like a god. So he uses a global Genjutsu to get this state.


----------



## McLover (May 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> 1: How many times didn't Kishi already said ''even foddier babies can controle Kyuubi with just both stupid Dna's, or kill your best friend and obtain one of the most haxed eyes of the whole world which also controles that pet.
> 
> link plz
> 
> ...



it's more like he districted your thoughts about believing tobi being madara which he somewhat is even if madara is resurrected


----------



## Nadroj (May 8, 2012)

So, here's what I've decided are assumptions (based on a quick read of your ):
-Orochimaru was not the inventor of Fushi Tensei
-Elder Son has been swapping bodies
-Tobi is currently in Obito's body
-Tobi took Madara's body, with a mutual agreement(?)
-Tobi outfitted himself with some unknowns
-Tobi f*cked up and had to resort to using Obito's body
-Tobi's only option is the slaughter is descendants if he wants Itachi's body
-Tobi tried to take Shisui's body (I believe I read that right)
-Tobi is going to try to take Sasuke's body next
-Tobi waited until Madara came along to plan the Eye of the Moon
-Tobi somehow gave Madara the Rinnegan
-Tobi is able to exist in a living person's body along side the other(?)
-Tobi is afraid that the man he plotted with because that man, Madara, is stronger than him and this is problem.

This is a LOT of backstory. I've been keeping up with this thread, so when I say "Your theory looks like a story", that's based on everything.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> Not helping your cause...
> 
> So, here's what I've decided are assumptions (based on a quick read of your ):
> -Orochimaru was not the inventor of Fushi Tensei
> ...



So you say Tobi must not have a lot of backstory. It's the main villain and Kabuto gets 1000 of chapters. Why can't a main villain have a long backstory?


----------



## Nadroj (May 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> So you say Tobi must not have a lot of backstory. It's the main villain and Kabuto gets 1000 of chapters. Why can't a main villain have a long backstory?


I'm not implying Tobi has no backstory, I'm implying that you're trying to write him a backstory. It's not most compelling way to write a theory. Also, I said those were assumptions. There's a lot of assumptions. Not good for me.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> I'm not implying Tobi has no backstory, I'm implying that you're trying to write him a backstory. It's not most compelling way to write a theory. Also, I said those were assumptions. There's a lot of assumptions. Not good for me.



So you say, because of the details my theory isn't a theory?
Isn't it the details that make it believable?


----------



## McLover (May 8, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Finally, someone with some good arguments against those Tobito haters. And, there are also two other panels which show that the other face side has no wrinkles/scars:
> Link removed        (check the middle-right panel) That there basically confirms it. We get a clear view down his mask and the left side of his face is perfectly fine.
> 
> There's also: Link removed
> ...



pic1: it's shadowed, not scars-less
pic2: i don't see any sight of his face ...........


----------



## Nadroj (May 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> So you say, because of the details my theory isn't a theory?
> Isn't it the details that make it believable?



Ah, no. It's the assumptions based on assumptions and the amount of them. There doesn't seem to be a good balance of manga and theory. Some of it just doesn't have good foundations. If anything I'm suggesting you continue editing, adding, etc.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> Ah, no. It's the assumptions based on assumptions and the amount of them. There doesn't seem to be a good balance of manga and theory. Some of it just doesn't have good foundations. If anything I'm suggesting you continue editing, adding, etc.



Of course I do, everyone does so. There are basics and the rest is added via logic.


----------



## NW (May 8, 2012)

McLover said:


> pic1: it's shadowed, not scars-less
> pic2: i don't see any sight of his face ...........



pic1: look below the shadowed part.

pic2: sorry, I think I posted the wrong pic


----------



## Nadroj (May 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Of course I do, everyone does so. There are basics and the rest is added via logic.



We may have different understandings of some things. So, let me instead pose some questions.



Crystaltiger said:


> The Rinnegan originally was awaken by the Elder Son himself. Shortly before Madara's body was going to die, he and the elder created the moons eye plan. The elder left Madara's body, but gave the Rinnegan to him, so he would be able to revive him later, with his own Rinnegan. (reason why Madara awoke the Rinnegan shortly before he died)


The Elder son is never shown with the Rinnegan. His eyes differ from the Sage's. Spirials not circles.
I don't clearly understand the use of "_Madara's body_ was going to _die_". Does this imply his soul as well or is there something special about this?
The Elder can live inside people's bodies? This is different than Orochimaru's Fushi Tensei?
So the Elder Son (somehow) gave Madara the Rinnegan, but is not in possession of it?


----------



## Talis (May 8, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Okay, I have to admit, that was friggin hilarious. I still am not bothering to answer your questions though. Your arguments are rather weak IMO.


Hilarious indeed. 
The point is that Tobi in backwards in Japan spells ''Bito''.


----------



## McLover (May 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> lol I don't like your constant repetition of the word fail, because I don't fail, let'S go: Tobi was in the war. He was deadly wounded, maybe poisened. It was worse than Obito's wounds so he took his body to survive. He had to act fast and had no people in his dimension. So he couldn't use some.
> 
> we all know plots like akatsuki and orochimaru has their own hide outs that are hard to find. so i dont buy that story based on a "maybe poisoned".. maybe not?  no evidence, just illusions and thoughts. it's ok if one says "dont know" instead of making up things!
> 
> ...



even if your theory is true (to me by 5%), it still is weak in my opinion, and more complicated than anything in the series itself to be believable. however it's ok if we disagree, at least i spent some hours discussing your theory of a huge fan  meanwhile you didn't even bother to read mine


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> The Elder son is never shown with the Rinnegan. His eyes differ from the Sage's. Spirials not circles.


Yes that's right, but that's an "old" picture, it doesn't look very reliable to me, it's at least similar to the Rinnegan, since it's a spiral. It looks more like a Rinnegan than like a Sharingan and we can assume that he had at least the Sharingan, since he is the origin of all Uchiha. We don't know when he got the Rinnegan, but he says "these eyes were mine to begin with" he means that he would have got them, if he would have been the heir of the RS.


> I don't clearly understand the use of "_Madara's body_ was going to _die_". Does this imply his soul as well or is there something special about this?


I was talking about the fact that Madara's body was "used up". He needed a new one. His soul and body died together. Just miserable verbalized by me.


> The Elder can live inside people's bodies? This is different than Orochimaru's Fushi Tensei?


I am not quite sure about it. If Madara wouldn't have awaken the Rinnegan I would have said, it's the same, but since he did so I would say, that he uses their body, but the soul is still in there, since he planed to meet Madara again.
Orochimaru's copied jutsus are always weaker as the original (Edo Tensei wasn't perfect nor was the curse mark) so that could be the point where they differ.


> So the Elder Son (somehow) gave Madara the Rinnegan, but is not in possession of it?


He is in possession of it, but we don't know when he got it. He gave it to Nagato in the 3rd Shinobi War. I can hardly answer to this question, since we know too little about how to get it.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 8, 2012)

McLover said:


> even if your theory is true (to me by 5%), it still is weak in my opinion, and more complicated than anything in the series itself to be believable. however it's ok if we disagree, at least i spent some hours discussing your theory of a huge fan  meanwhile you didn't even bother to read mine



I can live with the fact, that you think it's weak, I think it isn't. It has no plotholes.
I read your theory, but I answer daily to Madara/Zetsu-clone theories:


> Madara clone theory is sooo boring. There is Madara fighting the 5 kages with 25 clones. Isn't that enough for Madara fetishists? Take all 26 of them, but we don't need a number 27.


----------



## NW (May 8, 2012)

Here's something interesting: Link removed

As Sasuke's walking away, Tobi is thinking, "When a man comes to know love, he also runs the risk of carrying hatred." Obito+Rin dying+some other misfortunate things and being corrupted by Madara=Tobi!!!


----------



## Nadroj (May 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Yes that's right, but that's an "old" picture, it doesn't look very reliable to me, it's at least similar to the Rinnegan, since it's a spiral. It looks more like a Rinnegan than like a Sharingan and we can assume that he had at least the Sharingan, since he is the origin of all Uchiha. We don't know when he got the Rinnegan, but he says "these eyes were mine to begin with" he means that he would have got them, if he would have been the heir of the RS.


"Old"? It doesn't look "reliable"? It's there, in the manga. Spirals.
The Sharingan is born from the Rinnegan. It's evolution is traced back to the Elder son, then to the Sage. Why would he now have the Sharingan? Was it a cause of his body swapping into Obito's dead body?



Crystaltiger said:


> I was talking about the fact that Madara's body was "used up". He needed a new one. His soul and body died together. Just miserable verbalized by me.


So his body got old, or weak? I don't understand how that could be the case: Madara doesn't appear to be very old, or warn out. Even Nagato looked crippled until he was able to steal some of Bee's chakra. I wouldn't say that the Rinnegan increases life vitality, bit of a gray for me.



Crystaltiger said:


> I am not quite sure about it. If Madara wouldn't have awaken the Rinnegan I would have said, it's the same, but since he did so I would say, that he uses their body, but the soul is still in there, since he planed to meet Madara again.
> Orochimaru's copied jutsus are always weaker as the original (Edo Tensei wasn't perfect nor was the curse mark) so that could be the point where they differ.


With Orochimaru's technique it seems to suppress the person inside the host. Orochimaru managed to come out of Sasuke when the host was low on chakra. It may be possible that the Elder Son could live _with_ someone, but it also rolls with the assumption that Orochimaru didn't create this jutsu.



Crystaltiger said:


> He is in possession of it, but we don't know when he got it. He gave it to Nagato in the 3rd Shinobi War. I can hardly answer to this question, since we know too little about how to get it.


Assuming Nagato wasn't born with the Rinnegan but was given it, why would Tobi chose this child? Would being an Uzumaki important for this decision?


----------



## NW (May 8, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> "Old"? It doesn't look "reliable"? It's there, in the manga. Spirals.
> The Sharingan is born from the Rinnegan. It's evolution is traced back to the Elder son, then to the Sage. Why would he now have the Sharingan? Was it a cause of his body swapping into Obito's dead body?
> 
> 
> ...



This has nothing to do with his theory, but who do you think Tobi is anyway? i don't remember you stating it and if you did, I must have missed it.


----------



## Nadroj (May 8, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> This has nothing to do with his theory, but who do you think Tobi is anyway? i don't remember you stating it and if you did, I must have missed it.


Except that it _is_ pertaining to CrystalTiger's theory? Or was there some special bit in there?

Anyway, as for myself, I don't have any very strong opinions on the actual identity of Tobi. I'm not going to claim he's anyone, but here's what I already brainstormed:


Nadroj said:


> For me, Izuna is the only one able to have that hate-all-the-world bitterness. Now, Madara mentioned his brother died. Madara thought he himself was resurrected with the/Nagato's Rinnegan's Rinne Tensei. Tobi says that this technique was suppose to be used for himself. I'm not sure about the exact use of Rinne Tensei, whether or not the original body is needed, but Madara did manage to Hashirama's DNA. White Zetsu is based off of Hashirama. Tobi does have gooey arms like WZ.
> 
> So, this isn't as nice and neat as I thought it was but: Madara awakens Rinnegan before his death and brings back Izuna in a new/modified body then plots for him to convince Nagato to bring himself back using Rinne Tensei?


I will say that this isn't necessarily a "theory" but a "thought". So, I'm not going to have strong convictions for it, but I wouldn't mind any criticism or thoughts about it.


----------



## insane111 (May 8, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Finally, someone with some good arguments against those Tobito haters.



I don't see anything good about it. Over half of the points listed are completely irrelevant and don't hint at anything. Stuff like "Obito's name is similar" is just grasping at straws and trying to read into something that isn't there. Also, I still haven't seen anyone come up with an explanation to all of the plot holes that the theory creates.


----------



## Talis (May 9, 2012)

insane111 said:


> I don't see anything good about it. Over half of the points listed are completely irrelevant and don't hint at anything. Stuff like "Obito's name is similar" is just grasping at straws and trying to read into something that isn't there. Also, I still haven't seen anyone come up with an explanation to all of the plot holes that the theory creates.


Yeah sure saying the same shit always, yet you can't even mention these plot holes.
Relax bro let's wait until he says that he's Sakura then you can have your time again.


----------



## insane111 (May 9, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Yeah sure saying the same shit always, yet you can't even mention these plot holes.
> Relax bro let's wait until he says that he's Sakura then you can have your time again.



They were listed a million times in the old thread by multiple people, you just seem to ignore the points that hurt your case. I shouldn't have to go dig them up and repost them by now, it's been done to death.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 9, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> "Old"? It doesn't look "reliable"? It's there, in the manga. Spirals.
> The Sharingan is born from the Rinnegan. It's evolution is traced back to the Elder son, then to the Sage. Why would he now have the Sharingan? Was it a cause of his body swapping into Obito's dead body?



Look at the picture it looks more like a "painting" than a "real picture", that's what i meant by old. So what do you think the eyes of the elder son were?



> So his body got old, or weak? I don't understand how that could be the case: Madara doesn't appear to be very old, or warn out. Even Nagato looked crippled until he was able to steal some of Bee's chakra. I wouldn't say that the Rinnegan increases life vitality, bit of a gray for me.



He fought Hashirama and was about to die. He got the Rinnegan, to be stronger when he is revived once or for another reason. As I already said, we know nothing about it.




> With Orochimaru's technique it seems to suppress the person inside the host. Orochimaru managed to come out of Sasuke when the host was low on chakra. It may be possible that the Elder Son could live _with_ someone, but it also rolls with the assumption that Orochimaru didn't create this jutsu.



I am pretty sure that he didn't create it. All his jutsus were made by researches, why would this break the rank?



> Assuming Nagato wasn't born with the Rinnegan but was given it, why would Tobi chose this child? Would being an Uzumaki important for this decision?



Who knows? Maybe he knew his potential. After all he would be the future akatsuki leader.


----------



## Kronin (May 9, 2012)

> Assuming Nagato wasn't born with the Rinnegan but was given it, why would Tobi chose this child? Would being an Uzumaki important for this decision?



About this point, I think that Tobi (under the orders of Madara) simply has chosen Nagato because being an Uzumaki, (collateral descended from Rikudou), guaranteed for him a natural predisposition to the use of the Rinnegan.

It would have been much more difficult to use a Senjuu or an Uchiha from Konoha...


----------



## Talis (May 9, 2012)

insane111 said:


> They were listed a million times in the old thread by multiple people, you just seem to ignore the points that hurt your case. I shouldn't have to go dig them up and repost them by now, it's been done to death.


LOL.
I answered them a milion times and you were the one ignoring them, go ahead ask them and i prove it. 
It's obvious you gonna ignore this one to.


----------



## Escargon (May 9, 2012)

Tobi being Obito might seem like a shity theory, but after reading all those mangas with people with hidden identity, its almost always ending up to be someone like Obito.

A young good guy, totally "irrelevant" to the villains personality, belivied to be dead, yes, you even see him dead.

In what page did Kabuto say that Fugaku is Tobi btw?


----------



## NW (May 9, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Tobi being Obito might seem like a shity theory, but after reading all those mangas with people with hidden identity, its almost always ending up to be someone like Obito.
> 
> A young good guy, totally "irrelevant" to the villains personality, belivied to be dead, yes, you even see him dead.
> 
> In what page did Kabuto say that Fugaku is Tobi btw?



Lol, the Fugaku thing was a joke. I still think tobi is Obito. And you're right. Those masked men usually always turn out to be someone like Obito. it's just basic storytelling structure.


----------



## Nadroj (May 10, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Look at the picture it looks more like a "painting" than a "real picture", that's what i meant by old. So what do you think the eyes of the elder son were?


It's an image in a manga... I don't think that's a good enough reason to disregard it.



Crystaltiger said:


> He fought Hashirama and was about to die. He got the Rinnegan, to be stronger when he is revived once or for another reason. As I already said, we know nothing about it.


So that's kind of a hole in the theory?



Crystaltiger said:


> I am pretty sure that he didn't create it. All his jutsus were made by researches, why would this break the rank?


Where does it say all of his jutsus were made by researches, I must have missed that page.



Crystaltiger said:


> Who knows? Maybe he knew his potential. After all he would be the future akatsuki leader.


Nagato was never the official leader, he was only the figure head.



Kronin said:


> About this point, I think that Tobi (under the orders of Madara) simply has chosen Nagato because being an Uzumaki, (collateral descended from Rikudou), guaranteed for him a natural predisposition to the use of the Rinnegan.
> 
> It would have been much more difficult to use a Senjuu or an Uchiha from Konoha...


"Collateral decended"? My memory must be against me today. Yes, Tobi says that he sees some Senju in Naruto but we don't know if this comes from his mother or father. Naruto is indirectly related to the Senju, but is assuming the same for Nagato a good thing?


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 10, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> It's an image in a manga... I don't think that's a good enough reason to disregard it.



It's an ancient picture or a person who was never seen by a living person.



> So that's kind of a hole in the theory?



Maybe it wouldn't be if we knew anything about the Rinnegan.



> Where does it say all of his jutsus were made by researches, I must have missed that page.



Counterquestion: Which jutsu (Fushi Tensei excluded, as it is the topic of the discussion) was *created* by Orochimaru? I am pretty sure it is based on another jutsu, just as all his other jutsus.



> Nagato was never the official leader, he was only the figure head.



Yeah and without the Rinnegan he would have been very weak for a figure head.


----------



## Kronin (May 10, 2012)

> "Collateral decended"? My memory must be against me today. Yes, Tobi says that he sees some Senju in Naruto but we don't know if this comes from his mother or father. Naruto is indirectly related to the Senju, but is assuming the same for Nagato a good thing?



I say that Naruto is related to the Senjuu not for the comment of Toby (that was about their same will of fire) but for the words of Kushina when said that the Uzumaki were a clan distantly related with the Senju clan:



If Nagato is an Uzumaki, the same is applied for him.




> Nagato was never the official leader, he was only the figure head.



Actually I think that Nagato was the effective leader of the Akatsuki. Tobi also if exerted some influence on him, was a sort of affiliated to the organization, similar to an external associate. In addition the same Tobi call Nagato the leader of the Akatsuki:


----------



## Nadroj (May 10, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> It's an ancient picture or a person who was never seen by a living person.


I still think his spirally eyes should be considered.



Crystaltiger said:


> Counterquestion: Which jutsu (Fushi Tensei excluded, as it is the topic of the discussion) was *created* by Orochimaru? I am pretty sure it is based on another jutsu, just as all his other jutsus.


I would say that his snake-themed jutsus would most likely be of his own. But, it's still an _assumption_ that _all_ his jutsus are unoriginal.



Kronin said:


> I say that Naruto is related to the Senjuu not for the comment of Toby (that was about their same will of fire) but for the words of Kushina when said that the Uzumaki were a clan distantly related with the Senju clan:


Well, that would do it! So yes, this would now become a factor in choosing Nagato.


*Spoiler*: _Side Note Thing not Pertaining Directly to Tobi's Identity_ 




Here's something interesting that's become of this: Elder son has spiral eyes. Uzumaki's symbol is a sprial. Younger son inherited the Sage's "Life force" and "Physical Energy". Now, with the Uzumaki and Senju are distant relatives. Uzumaki clan is known for long lifespans, and I guess the Senju are good enough fighters to rival the Uchiha. Seems like the Senju are only half of the Younger Son. It seems to fit together somehow...


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 10, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> I still think his spirally eyes should be considered.



So what do you think they are?



> I would say that his snake-themed jutsus would most likely be of his own. But, it's still an _assumption_ that _all_ his jutsus are unoriginal.



Ok it's an assumption, but isn't this all an assumption? Every Tobi theory is based on assumptions. Obito/Shisui/Izuna theory assume, that they are still alive, eventhough they were all said to be dead. If there were any proofs for these assumptions, we wouldn't have to discuss here.


----------



## Nadroj (May 10, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> So what do you think they are?


I don't know. They aren't exactly the Rinnegan, and don't look like the Sharingan, but one evolved from the other. It would be interesting to find out what powers they hold.



Crystaltiger said:


> Ok it's an assumption, but isn't this all an assumption? Every Tobi theory is based on assumptions. Obito/Shisui/Izuna theory assume, that they are still alive, eventhough they were all said to be dead. If there were any proofs for these assumptions, we wouldn't have to discuss here.


Yes, assumptions are intrinsic for theories, most of the time. But let me say this again: Too many assumptions are bad.
Assumption: Orochimaru didn't create all his jutsus, leads to...
Assumption: Orochimaru created Fushi Tensei from another jutsu, leads to...
Assumption: Fushi Tensei can be traced back to an unknown jutsu from Elder Son, etc.
Assumption: Elder Son was able to stay alive because of his Fushi Tensei-like jutsu.
If the foundation is weak, the conclusion is weak.

Also, these "back-and-forth"s (starting  originated from a short paragraph of your . I would suggest using points that can be referred back to the manga. A theory may be made up of pure speculation, but it has less soundness if you can't prove many of the points. I'm only playing devil's advocate here.

Now I would also like to bring up  which draws from a statement in Rurouni Kenshin. Yes, it's another manga, but it's interesting and worth a look at.


----------



## Kronin (May 10, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> Now I would also like to bring up  which draws from a statement in Rurouni Kenshin. Yes, it's another manga, but it's interesting and worth a look at.



There are only my 2 cents, but I think that the thread's author just gave the definitive hint for the identity of Tobi. Now I'm really convinced that Tobi is Izuna, and that probably was resurrected by Madara with the Rinne Tensei before the old Uchiha leader's death.


----------



## Nadroj (May 10, 2012)

Kronin said:


> There are only my 2 cents, but I think that the thread's author just gave the definitive hint for the identity of Tobi. Now I'm really convinced that Tobi is Izuna, and that probably was resurrected by Madara with the Rinne Tensei before the old Uchiha leader's death.


I don't know if it will be that simple, but it's really hard to ignore it.

And yes for the Rinne Tensei.

Konan's concern for Nagato is his chakra levels, so this technique seems to have the opportunity for multiple uses. And, as noted, Izuna was stated to have died, by Madara, but not necessarily to be currently dead. Older brother brings back younger with Rinnegan, seems very reasonable. Of course, there's always the problem of his body and eyes.


----------



## Kronin (May 10, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> I don't know if it will be that simple, but it's really hard to ignore it.
> 
> And yes for the Rinne Tensei.
> 
> Konan's concern for Nagato is his chakra levels, so this technique seems to have the opportunity for multiple uses. And, as noted, Izuna was stated to have died, by Madara, but not necessarily to be currently dead. Older brother brings back younger with Rinnegan, seems very reasonable. Of course, there's always the problem of his body and eyes.



Yes probably will be more complex that what I have said, but I really think that Tobi is Izuna, resurrected or not.

Anyway, if Izuna was bring back with the Rinnegan (so there aren't time limits of the use of the Rinne Tensei), I can't explain because Nagato has never resurrected Yahiko....

PS: Nadroj could you change the site from where you take the chapter pics, please? Because when you post an image I see always this picture:


I think that also other members can't see your images.


----------



## Nadroj (May 10, 2012)

Kronin said:


> Anyway, if Izuna was bring back with the Rinnegan (so there aren't time limits of the use of the Rinne Tensei), I can't explain because Nagato has never resurrected Yahiko....


I would hate to have to change Konan's words... But we've seen that a technique that brings people back to life would require a living sacrifice. I guess there may be a time frame needed. I think Nagato says, "there's still time to save those I killed when I came to Konoha," so there's a limit there.


*Spoiler*: _PS_ 





Kronin said:


> PS: Nadroj could you change the site from where you take the chapter pics, please? Because when you post an image I see always this picture:
> 
> 
> I think that also other members can't see your images.


I have trouble viewing other's images sometimes. I'll try to use the url instead of the IMG.


----------



## ueharakk (May 10, 2012)

It's so obvious that it's Izuna. 
Why do you think Tobi is so on about "I am no one?"  It's because Izuna's identity was to be a source of power for Madara in order to protect the uchiha clan.  Once the senju and uchiha became allies, it was as if Izuna's sacrifice and identity completely lost its meaning.  Because of this madara felt compelled to overthrow the senju, and fight at the valley of the end.  Madara didn't want to win, he played the bad guy for izuna's sake because his brother meant more to him than stability or the village.  Does this story sound familiar?  Of course since it's exactly what's going on between sasuke and itachi. Itachi played the bad guy, and sasuke played the guy who's entire existence became meaningless.  Edo madara isn't really a bad guy, he is just playing the bad guy right now.  Evidence of this is how he is the fact that he is going so easy on the Gokage, why he was so disgusted when he found out about edo tensei, and why he didn't say anything when oonoki talked to him about watching the generations overcome hatred.  Before he is sealed, madara will revive everyone killed when he uses rinne tensei.


----------



## Kronin (May 10, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> I would hate to have to change Konan's words... But we've seen that a technique that brings people back to life would require a living sacrifice. I guess there may be a time frame needed. I think Nagato says, "there's still time to save those I killed when I came to Konoha," so there's a limit there.



I have interpreted these words in the same way. But in this case there is another question: how was suppose Nagato to be able to resurrect Madara died many time before Yahiko?

*@ueharakk:* This is an intersting theory but I don't think so: to use 25 clones with the ability of Sharingan, Mokuton and Rinnegan against 5 people for me don't mean "going easy on" XD


----------



## Nadroj (May 10, 2012)

ueharakk said:


> It's so obvious that it's Izuna.
> Why do you think Tobi is so on about "I am no one?"  It's because Izuna's identity was to be a source of power for Madara in order to protect the uchiha clan.  Once the senju and uchiha became allies, it was as if Izuna's sacrifice and identity completely lost its meaning.  Because of this madara felt compelled to overthrow the senju, and fight at the valley of the end.  Madara didn't want to win, he played the bad guy for izuna's sake because his brother meant more to him than stability or the village.  Does this story sound familiar?  Of course since it's exactly what's going on between sasuke and itachi. Itachi played the bad guy, and sasuke played the guy who's entire existence became meaningless.  Edo madara isn't really a bad guy, he is just playing the bad guy right now.  Evidence of this is how he is the fact that he is going so easy on the Gokage, why he was so disgusted when he found out about edo tensei, and why he didn't say anything when oonoki talked to him about watching the generations overcome hatred.  Before he is sealed, madara will revive everyone killed when he uses rinne tensei.


I wouldn't say "so obvious," because at a time it was "so obvious" that Obito=Tobi. Also, whether or not Madara is "playing the bad guy" that seems to be, eh... His clan and rival clan made a peace agreement. Yes, his brother's sacrifice became less important, but Madara did attack his former village with the Kyuubi. He's filled with hate.

There's a strong bond in brotherhood. Madara's bond with Izuna is stronger than his bond with his village. I would say Madara is still the bad guy because his interests are not with the village but himself (and his brother?)

And using the Rinnegan with Mokuton's advanced techniques and Susanoo and changing the 5 vs 1 to a 5 vs 25 plus himself, "going easy?"




Kronin said:


> I have interpreted these words in the same way. But in this case there is another question: how was suppose Nagato to be able to resurrect Madara died many time before Yahiko?


Yeah, I don't really know. Not a whole lot of knowledge on Shinra Tensei so... I just really hope all of this can make sense.


----------



## ueharakk (May 10, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> And using the Rinnegan with Mokuton's advanced techniques and Susanoo and changing the 5 vs 1 to a 5 vs 25 plus himself, "going easy?"QUOTE]
> 
> He's probably going to make the 25 clones go easy on them as well.
> 
> ...


----------



## Nadroj (May 10, 2012)

ueharakk said:


> He's probably going to make the 25 clones go easy on them as well.
> 
> If madara wanted to, at any time he could chou shinra tensei, chibaku tensei, or drop a meteor or two on these guys.  The fact that he only uses the rinnegan's power as a last-defense tells you he is taking it easy.


No one reveals their hand in the beginning. Madara is putting on a show. He's been in retirement for a while, wants a big blast. Also, those jutsus take a lot of chakra anyway, and Kishi would be bad for ending it all in one chapter...



ueharakk said:


> And the fact that izuna lost his eyes and tobi somehow has a huge lab full of fresh uchiha eyes.


Yes! I remember that. I forgot about this lab


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 11, 2012)

I used to think Izuna was among the most likely possibilities, but then Madara definitively said he was dead, and that pretty much rules him out.


----------



## Nadroj (May 11, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I used to think Izuna was among the most likely possibilities, but then Madara definitively said he was dead, and that pretty much rules him out.


I'm going to answer this with another quote!



Nadroj said:


> Well, technically, Madara said Izuna died. Kishi could be very carefully choosing his words here...
> 
> And we all know of a certain doujutsu that can bring people back to life.


If you can't see the picture, it's Chapter 577, Page 7, Top right panel.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 11, 2012)

But why is he afraid of ET Madara?


----------



## NW (May 11, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> But why is he afraid of ET Madara?




If you're talking about Tobi's reaction when he saw Kabuto's sixth coffin, he was afraid because he didn't want people to know that he wasn't Madara. That wouldn't change no matter who Tobi is. He also probably didn't want Madara to find out that he didn't stick to the plan. He probably thought that Madara was gonna try to kill him or something.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 11, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> If you're talking about Tobi's reaction when he saw Kabuto's sixth coffin, he was afraid because he didn't want people to know that he wasn't Madara. That wouldn't change no matter who Tobi is. He also probably didn't want Madara to find out that he didn't stick to the plan. He probably thought that Madara was gonna try to kill him or something.



But if the plan was to revive him with Nagato's Jutsu and Nagato is dead, why didn't he think: "omg nice, I screwed up with Nagato, but that's my chance to revive him nevertheless"


----------



## NW (May 11, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> But if the plan was to revive him with Nagato's Jutsu and Nagato is dead, why didn't he think: "omg nice, I screwed up with Nagato, but that's my chance to revive him nevertheless"



He probably didn't want Madara to be revived by such "atrocious" means, as Madara put it.

The Entire Sasuke Vs deidara Fight. He treated deidara like nothing but a mobile "google". 

He also probably didn't want Madara to be under a jutsu where Kabuto could control him completely at any second.


But, personally i think that Tobi never intended to revive Madara at all, and he wanted the Moon's eye plan for himself.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (May 11, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> He probably didn't want Madara to be revived by such "atrocious" means, as Madara put it.
> 
> Top left is what I was originally referring to, "I plan to" when suigetsu stated to "hurry up"


That was an embellished translation. [1, ]


----------



## Talis (May 13, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> I don't know. They aren't exactly the Rinnegan, and don't look like the Sharingan, but one evolved from the other. It would be interesting to find out what powers they hold.
> 
> 
> Yes, assumptions are intrinsic for theories, most of the time. But let me say this again: Too many assumptions are bad.
> ...


This is actually pretty much what i mean too CrystalTiger



McLover said:


> it's more like he districted your thoughts about believing tobi being madara which he somewhat is even if madara is resurrected


Why you keep reply in quotes it's freaking hard to reply, anyways;

1: I won't harm Sasuke
2: I hit the nail on this since you couldn't give a descent reply and bitch instead.
3: Again Tobi was talking in Madara's perspective the whole time, did you ever see Tobi with Rinnegan before? No. Did you see Madara with Rinnegan? Yes.
4: And again i am right since your bitching again.
5: Because his whole clan was already killed, so they didn't lecture him about Madara yet.
9: The same way Kabuto got Madara's dna atm? 
11: google it? Why do you keep asking links about these super well known facts?


----------



## NW (May 13, 2012)

I'm absolutely sure now that Tobi is either obito or Izuna.


----------



## Nadroj (May 13, 2012)

While rereading a little, I stumbled upon some fun pages and would like to note that Nagato was given the Rinnegan by Tobi.

Also, for those in favor of the Madara Clone theory:
Tobi gives a little history lesson about the Sage of Six Paths. We find that Izanagi creats form from nothing with the power of Yin and breathed life into that form with the power of Yang. So, Madara fakes his own death with Izanagi and loses an eye. With the power of both Uchiha and Senju, Madara become the second Sage. With the sage's power he's able to create a clone of himself (Tobi) to bring himself back to life after he dies. Or something like that.

I don't necessarily support it, but I'm trying to toss in as much as I can.


----------



## Talis (May 13, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> While rereading a little, I stumbled upon some fun pages and would like to note that Nagato was given the Rinnegan by Tobi.
> 
> Also, for those in favor of the Madara Clone theory:
> Tobi gives a little history lesson about the Sage of Six Paths. We find that Izanagi creats form from nothing with the power of Yin and breathed life into that form with the power of Yang. So, Madara fakes his own death with Izanagi and loses an eye. With the power of both Uchiha and Senju, Madara become the second Sage. With the sage's power he's able to create a clone of himself (Tobi) to bring himself back to life after he dies. Or something like that.
> ...


The simple plot problem is, if he had such cheated power why 1 Tobi instead 9 like the Bijuu's or why not 90/900/over 900000000 since he had that power?
2: Rikudou created 9 beasts and not a crippled Zetsu goo'd clone.
3: Why didn't Rikudou do the same thing?
4: It simply doesn't make sense to create yourself a second time.


----------



## Tharris (May 13, 2012)

*I think Tobi is...*

Shisui Uchiha, Tobi is the only person who seems more knowledgeable than Itachi, so who better than the man who mentored Itachi. Shisui has been mentioned multiple times, even compared to Tobi by the lady Mizukage. Remember that Shisui had the power of mind control and Tobi controlled the fourth Mizukage. Also, think about it this way. The Uchiha massacre was not only done by Itachi, but Tobi as well and Shisui would have a motive. He needed new Sharingan eyes to replace his own, because he had used both for the Izanagi technique, which Tobi in fact knows. Shisui was supposedly murdered right before the massacre. Itachi recovered one eye and Danzo the other. What better way to eliminate the chance of being suspected as being Tobi than to give up your eyes and frame someone for murdering you.
He could have used mind control over both Danzo(controlling the root) and Itachi(leader of the Anbu Black Ops) giving him a perfect escape. 
Think about which Uchiha's had access to their secret Archives. Itachi, Sasuke and Shisui.
Tobi created Zetsu, and the Zetsu army.
Zetsu was created using Hashrima(1st Hokage)'s Cells.
Sharingan's "evolve" into Rinnegan's but you need Senju dna. (Hashirama Senju).
Tobi has exhibited Zetsu like features. Such as regrowing limbs and goopy wounds.
Or should I say Zetsu exhibits Tobi like features since Tobi created him.
What I'm really trying to get at is that if the Uchiha archives had information on the Rinnegan, in the same way that it had information on the Mangekyo Sharingan then Shisui has the perfect set up to try to gain that power.
Tobi has both the Uchiha's Sharingan and through experimentation Senju cells.

The reason Kishimoto(Mind behind Naruto) might want to make people think of Obito when talking about Tobi could be to make a "Shisui is Tobi" plot more justifiable through relating key features in their stories.
Kakashi is able to use Obito's Sharingan because Obito had finally unlocked it before he died. If he hadn't it might've just been another eye.
Which would make sense why Tobi would have to implement the Rinnegan into Nagato(Pein)(Pain). He needed someone who was capable of unlocking the eyes to do so before he could implant them. 
So having both Senju cells and the unlocked rinnegan Tobi would be able to fully control the eye(s).
What could someone who is obsessed with power and control want after gaining the power of the Sage of Six Paths?
Full control over the world.
Thus Tobi's next step would be world domination, thus the Moon Eye Plan.
Shisui fits better than anyone, and the only other arguable candidate in my opinion is Kagami.


----------



## Araragi (May 13, 2012)

I said I wouldn't post this anymore but it's time to bring my theory out just one last time, no haters please!!! I think that tobi is the following person:


----------



## Tharris (May 14, 2012)

You may be on to something

Tobi...Tobi...Tobi WOAH


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 14, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> While rereading a little, I stumbled upon some fun pages and would like to note that Nagato was given the Rinnegan by Tobi.



He makes claims that entire fight to feats that are in all likelihood Madara's doing, rather than his own.


----------



## Golden Circle (May 14, 2012)

I think Tobi is part Madara that Madara was able to make immortal in exchange for his own life.

Cue Edo Madara rejoining with himself after Kabuto is dead.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 14, 2012)

Rainbow Dash said:


> I think Tobi is part Madara that Madara was able to make immortal in exchange for his own life.
> 
> Cue Edo Madara rejoining with himself after Kabuto is dead.



That would either imply that Madara is particulary alive IN Tobi *or* that he *sealed* lifeforce in Tobi.
Both would make a revive by Edo Tensei impossble:
Sealed persons cannot be revived as well as living persons cannot be revived.

*Plus:* Madara being Tobi is the most boring theory existing: 
There is one Madara atm, with 25 clones: 26 Madaras, why would we need a 27th Madara-.-


----------



## Mantux31 (May 14, 2012)

We see that Shisui has no right eye, but Tobi has the right eye.
I know it can be transplanted, but whats the point of transplanting sharingan from one eye socket to another one?


----------



## thepowerofscience (May 14, 2012)

Rainbow Dash said:


> I think Tobi is part Madara that Madara was able to make immortal in exchange for his own life.
> 
> Cue Edo Madara rejoining with himself after Kabuto is dead.



that Tobi guy isn't even an Uchiha he cannot even do a Katone why you think he wear a mask to hide his identity no it is an excuse to hide his inability to do  a Katone and if he ended somehow being an Uchiha then that will explain his childish act and why he killed the Uchiha clan afterall no Katone equal you are not an adult and he was bullied for that.


----------



## Talis (May 14, 2012)

Mantux31 said:


> We see that Shisui has no right eye, but Tobi has the right eye.
> I know it can be transplanted, but whats the point of transplanting sharingan from one eye socket to another one?


Wow lol, his MS is on, maybe he cast Kotoamatsukami on Itachi to fake his death. 
But damn i have to see his lower face side seriously looks as Tobi whenever he turns back at chapter 486 to Zetsu.
The only thing which messed up is his eye''hair''.


----------



## Tharris (May 14, 2012)

Tobi has been shown with both eyes.

He in fact loses his left sharingan eye fighting Konan, he performs the Izanagi technique and it costs the sight of one eye.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 14, 2012)

thepowerofscience said:


> that Tobi guy isn't even an Uchiha he cannot even do a Katone why you think he wear a mask to hide his identity no it is an excuse to hide his inability to do  a Katone and if he ended somehow being an Uchiha then that will explain his childish act and why he killed the Uchiha clan afterall no Katone equal you are not an adult and he was bullied for that.



Puh so many punctuation marks...not.
Ok particulary:


> that Tobi guy isn't even an Uchiha he cannot even do a Katone


We didn't see *any* Ninjutsu by Tobi (maybe this Doton thing can be counted as a Ninjutsu, but that would make 1 Genjutsu in 585 chapters, that doesn't classify him as an Uchiha or Non-Uchiha). We didn't see Katon by Shisui or Izuna or Kagami. Do you doubt them to be Uchiha? Not to use Katon, doesn't proof that he is not an Uchiha, especialy if he didn't use *any* Ninjutsus ever.


> why you think he wear a mask to hide his identity no it is an excuse to hide his inability to do  a Katone


The use of a mask IS to hide identities. How should it be an excuse? Are people with masks unable to do Katon jutsus? Then how did Kakashi use the Katon: Gōkakyū no Jutsu? I don't think the mask is for this purpose. It's clearly because Tobi is a well-known character, who would be recognized.


> if he ended somehow being an Uchiha then that will explain his childish act and why he killed the Uchiha clan afterall no Katone equal you are not an adult and he was bullied for that.


So you are saying he is an Uchiha, who was too "bad" to use Katon and was bullied for that and then killed the clan because of that?? O.o
Sorry but that's kinda ridiculous, a decade before he killed the clan, he fought the 4th Hokage. Noone who fought that guy could be "too bad" to learn this jutsu. And do you really think Tobi killed the clan because he was bullied? Come on really?



Tharris said:


> Tobi has been shown with both eyes.
> 
> He in fact loses his left sharingan eye fighting Konan, he performs the Izanagi technique and it costs the sight of one eye.



In fact we know that he has a hundred eyes and the ability to implant them.
(We saw the eyes in his lab, and he transplanted Itachi's eyes in Sasuke, as well as Nagato's eyes in himself.)
Therefore we can assume that none of these so called "he has only one eye he must be Obito" or "he has the right eye he cannot be Shisui" proofs, are real proofs.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 14, 2012)

Tharris said:


> Tobi has been shown with both eyes.
> 
> He in fact loses his left sharingan eye fighting Konan, he performs the Izanagi technique and it costs the sight of one eye.



The eye that he used for Izanagi was not originally his, it was just one of the spare Sharingan he had transplanted.

We know this because Tobi has used Izanagi before, when he was surprised by Itachi's Amaterasu trap.



Crystaltiger said:


> In fact we know that he has a hundred eyes and the ability to implant them.
> (We saw the eyes in his lab, and he transplanted Itachi's eyes in Sasuke, as well as Nagato's eyes in himself.)
> Therefore we can assume that none of these so called "he has only one eye he must be Obito" or "he has the right eye he cannot be Shisui" proofs, are real proofs.



Well actually his right Sharingan, the one that has the Space-time jutsu, is something he's always had, well before he had access to his Sharingan collection. So I think it's safe to say that could be his original eye.


----------



## thepowerofscience (May 14, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


first I was joking since I dont believe he is part Madara, second Kakashi Katon was in the anime so don't consider it.


----------



## Almondsand (May 14, 2012)

I want to put a $10000 bet against anyone who believe Tobi is Izuna, Obito, and Fugaku, as well as Shisui. Fuck all the games, who trying to bet money on this, since you believe in these crackhead theories, lets up the ante on this I don't care about forum reputation, the only thing I care about is the money.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 14, 2012)

I'll take that bet. I could use the money.


----------



## NW (May 14, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> I want to put a $10000 bet against anyone who believe Tobi is Izuna, Obito, and Fugaku, as well as Shisui. Fuck all the games, who trying to bet money on this, since you believe in these crackhead theories, lets up the ante on this I don't care about forum reputation, the only thing I care about is the money.




Lol, you're crazy if you think I'm gonna bet money on Tobi's identity. (That's going a little too far over a manga....) I will however, just casually bet you that he is either Shisui, Izuna, Obito, or the Sage of Six Paths' Older Son. Anyone else would be bullshit, IMO.


----------



## Talis (May 14, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> I want to put a $10000 bet against anyone who believe Tobi is Izuna, Obito, and Fugaku, as well as Shisui. Fuck all the games, who trying to bet money on this, since you believe in these crackhead theories, lets up the ante on this I don't care about forum reputation, the only thing I care about is the money.


Wheres our previous $1.000 since you lost already with your Tobidara theory?


----------



## Nikushimi (May 15, 2012)

Sai is Tobi:

Link removed

Link removed

100% PROOVED


----------



## Mateush (May 15, 2012)

Right now I feel like this:

1. Madara 90%
2. Izuna 10%
3. Shisui 0%
4. Obito 0%


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 15, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Lol, you're crazy if you think I'm gonna bet money on Tobi's identity. (That's going a little too far over a manga....) I will however, just casually bet you that he is either Shisui, Izuna, Obito, or the Sage of Six Paths' Older Son. Anyone else would be bullshit, IMO.



100% agreed



Nikushimi said:


> Sai is Tobi:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



100% NOT



Mateush said:


> Right now I feel like this:
> 
> 1. Madara 90%
> 2. Izuna 10%
> ...



Right now I feel like, that's wrong.


----------



## Syxaxis (May 15, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Right now I feel like this:
> 
> 1. Madara 90%
> 2. Izuna 10%
> ...


What? 

Who is fighting Kages then?


----------



## Mantux31 (May 15, 2012)

Tobi is Minato.

That would fuck shit up, seriously.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 15, 2012)

Mantux31 said:


> Tobi is Minato.
> 
> That would fuck shit up, seriously.



Yeah especialy because Minato fought Tobi..


----------



## thepowerofscience (May 15, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Yeah especialy because Minato fought Tobi..



talk about clones and split personality,Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde at its finest.


----------



## Mantux31 (May 15, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Yeah especialy because Minato fought Tobi..


EXACTLY!


----------



## Talis (May 15, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Right now I feel like this:
> 
> 1. Madara -90%
> 2. Izuna -10%
> ...


Fixed. bama


----------



## jingson (May 15, 2012)

*Tobi is not Madara or from the Uchicha Clan*

Tobi is not madara or of anyone from the uchiha clan... my basis? he have the sharinggan on his right eye and rinnegan on his left when the manga states the rinnegan is the evolution of sharinggan. notice how edo madara just have the rinnegan now while tobi got both...

My guess is Tobi's sharinggan is stolen kinda like Danzos thats why they both have to cover their other eye 

P.S. as the story unfolds sasuke will have the rinnegan thats my theory.


----------



## NW (May 15, 2012)

I'm starting to think that Tobi might actually be Uchiha Shisui. The majority of "Naruto" incorporates alot of Japanese mythology. One such thing that is used is something called "Tengu". I'm not going to go into a full detail explanation but what I am patient enough to say is that Tengu were supposedly crow-like creatures that could take human form. They were usually depicted with huge noses. I find it suspicious how Shisui's nose was unusually broad. Tengu were described as being a "bird of prey" or a black kite. "Tobi" means "kite" in Japanese. Also, one of Shisui's eyes was implanted into a CROW. Tengu were said to start wars. Tobi declared the Fourth Great Ninja World War in front of the Five Kage. I kind of doubt that Tobi actually is Shisui but this is some pretty good evidence in my opinion. I mean, they never told Shisui's age, and we've never heard him talk, so we can't compare either his age nor his voice. Plus, Shisui has fought Ao, which means that he could have been to the Mist Village. I guess MAYBE Tobi could be Shisui but it seems unlikely.

There is also some Japanese mythological evidence for Izuna. If I perceived the passage I read on this correctly, then there is a Tengu or Spirit called Izuna that has control over fox spirits *COUGH*TobiControlledKurama*COUGH* There are other hints of Tobi = Izuna as well. Like when Tobi clenched his arm when telling Sasuke about how Izuna gave Madara his eyes. He also told Konan that he gave then Rinnegan to Nagato and told Kabuto that the Rinnegan eyes were his to begin with.
LINK: just looks silly
LINK: just looks silly

We know that there is truth to this claim, since Madara was resurrected with his eyes still intact. Edo Tensei resurrects you in the state which you died in, meaning Madara had to have had his eyes intact when he died. So, after Madara died, Tobi gave the Rinnegan to Nagato. He also says that the eyes were his to begin with. This would make sense as Izuna gave his eyes to Madara but then transplanted his eyes into Nagato. Nagato had Madara's eyes which were actually Izuna's eyes meaning that the Rinnegan technically belonged to Izuna. Also, Izuna and Tobi have the *EXACT* same weight and Tobi is only 0.2 centimeters taller than Izuna.

Tobi- 
Height: 175.0 cm
Weight: 55.9 kg


Izuna-
Height: 174.8 cm
Weight: 55.9 kg

I know Madara said that Izuna died but he could have resurrected him with Rinne Tensei........

There is also a great deal of Japanese mythology that supports Tobi being Obito as well, but I'm pretty sure that I've posted it before and I'm too lazy to re-write it, lol.


----------



## Laffite (May 15, 2012)

Just a thought, can there be 2 active edo tensei's of a person? Say someone else used an edo tensei technique but had different dna of the person and it was activated a long time ago, then kabuto went and did his own with whatever dna he found. 

Or would that fail kabuto's technique, or cancel out the other edo tensei? I know it sounds completely insane, and even if it were possible I'm not sure if anyone besides Tobirama and then Oro years later knew the edo tensei technique.

While this would explain why Tobi can meld his body back together after it's been severely damaged, the only part that makes no sense is why would the summoning of Madara by kabuto even phase him. He'd just be like oh yeah that's me, but newer. 

IDK...tobi is aizen for all i know. Izuna is the only one that makes most sense, and even that one doesn't make much sense.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 15, 2012)

Laffite said:


> Just a thought, can there be 2 active edo tensei's of a person? Say someone else used an edo tensei technique but had different dna of the person and it was activated a long time ago, then kabuto went and did his own with whatever dna he found.
> 
> Or would that fail kabuto's technique, or cancel out the other edo tensei? I know it sounds completely insane, and even if it were possible I'm not sure if anyone besides Tobirama and then Oro years later knew the edo tensei technique.
> 
> ...



Edo Tensei binds the soul of the individual to the host body, so it would be impossible to have two Edo Tensei of the same individual at once.

Furthermore, Tobi's regeneration does not at all resemble the kind of regeneration Edos display.


----------



## NW (May 15, 2012)

Laffite said:


> Just a thought, can there be 2 active edo tensei's of a person? Say someone else used an edo tensei technique but had different dna of the person and it was activated a long time ago, then kabuto went and did his own with whatever dna he found.
> 
> Or would that fail kabuto's technique, or cancel out the other edo tensei? I know it sounds completely insane, and even if it were possible I'm not sure if anyone besides Tobirama and then Oro years later knew the edo tensei technique.
> 
> ...



Most likely the summoning would fail. You can't have two of a soul and a soul must reside in the pure world for it to be resurrected with Edo Tensei. Plus, you can tell that Tobi's not an Edo Tensei because the whites around his eyes aren't black and he doesn't have those cracks everywhere. His arm also doesn't just immediately regenerate like Edos' do. His arm looks to be made of Zetsu goo, so whenever he loses one, he most likely makes a new one out of Zetsu goo. Plus, Madara seems to know tobi, how would he know him if he were just an Edo of himself?


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 15, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I'm starting to think that Tobi might actually be Uchiha Shisui. The majority of "Naruto" incorporates alot of Japanese mythology. One such thing that is used is something called "Tengu". I'm not going to go into a full detail explanation but what I am patient enough to say is that Tengu were supposedly crow-like creatures that could take human form. They were usually depicted with huge noses. I find it suspicious how Shisui's nose was unusually broad. Tengu were described as being a "bird of prey" or a black kite. "Tobi" means "kite" in Japanese. Also, one of Shisui's eyes was implanted into a CROW. Tengu were said to start wars. Tobi declared the Fourth Great Ninja World War in front of the Five Kage. I kind of doubt that Tobi actually is Shisui but this is some pretty good evidence in my opinion. I mean, they never told Shisui's age, and we've never heard him talk, so we can't compare either his age nor his voice. Plus, Shisui has fought Ao, which means that he could have been to the Mist Village. I guess MAYBE Tobi could be Shisui but it seems unlikely.
> 
> There is also some Japanese mythological evidence for Izuna. If I perceived the passage I read on this correctly, then there is a Tengu or Spirit called Izuna that has control over fox spirits *COUGH*TobiControlledKurama*COUGH* There are other hints of Tobi = Izuna as well. Like when Tobi clenched his arm when telling Sasuke about how Izuna gave Madara his eyes. He also told Konan that he gave then Rinnegan to Nagato and told Kabuto that the Rinnegan eyes were his to begin with.
> LINK: just looks silly
> ...



Shisui and Izuna are the only both theories I could adapt to (apart from the elder son). But I think that Shisui has something to do with Zetsu. I think he is Zetsus black site.



Laffite said:


> Just a thought, can there be 2 active edo tensei's of a person? Say someone else used an edo tensei technique but had different dna of the person and it was activated a long time ago, then kabuto went and did his own with whatever dna he found.
> 
> Or would that fail kabuto's technique, or cancel out the other edo tensei? I know it sounds completely insane, and even if it were possible I'm not sure if anyone besides Tobirama and then Oro years later knew the edo tensei technique.
> 
> ...



"different dna of the person" ?? The DNA of a person is always the same, that's the sense behind the DNA O.o Therefore it is not possible to revive a person more than one time, because the Edo Tensei binds the soul of the corpse to the corpse. Souls are unique, they cannot be revived twice.
Tobi can "meld his body back" by using a space-time jutsu. It's called Jikūkan Idō.

EDIT: nice three times same answer ;D


----------



## NW (May 15, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Shisui and Izuna are the only both theories I could adapt to (apart from the elder son). But I think that Shisui has something to do with Zetsu. I think he is Zetsus black site.



Well, that's certainly an interesting theory. Do you mean, that you think Black Zetsu is just made from Shisui's DNA/body, etc. or do you mean that it's made from his body and his actual soul as well? I personally believe that Black Zetsu is made from Madara's DNA. I believe this because it would be perfect symbolism of the Yin-Yang, which Zetsu is obviously meant to represent. Also, White Zetsu was made as a counterpart to Black Zetsu. Meaning that he came after Black Zetsu. So, when tobi fought Minato, you can see that Zetsu goo coming out when his hand fell off. This was before Shisui supposedly died.And since White Zetsu came after Black Zetsu, then Black Zetsu couldn't have been Shisui. It's still an interesting concept though.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 15, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Well, that's certainly an interesting theory. Do you mean, that you think Black Zetsu is just made from Shisui's DNA/body, etc. or do you mean that it's made from his body and his actual soul as well? I personally believe that Black Zetsu is made from Madara's DNA. I believe this because it would be perfect symbolism of the Yin-Yang, which Zetsu is obviously meant to represent. Also, White Zetsu was made as a counterpart to Black Zetsu. Meaning that he came after Black Zetsu. So, when tobi fought Minato, you can see that Zetsu goo coming out when his hand fell off. This was before Shisui supposedly died.And since White Zetsu came after Black Zetsu, then Black Zetsu couldn't have been Shisui. It's still an interesting concept though.



Yes that's the point, Zetsu is definately the embodiment of Yin and Yang. Yin and Yang are the Uchiha and the Senju. Therefore the black side consists of Uchiha chakra, the white site Senju chakra. The Shisui thing was more like a spontanous idea, based on the fact that his body disappeared and I don't believe that his role in the story is over. I doubt that he is Tobi so I think he has to do something with Zetsu.
But you are right the timeline doesn't fit. That Madarathing, I heard of it before and I like the theory, that Zetsu was "born" in the clash of Madara and Hashirama. 
However I think we will hear a lot more of Zetsu as well as Shisui, whoever he may be. And there is no doubt that white Zetsu embodies Senju, while the black one embodies Uchiha, but any further things are speculations in the wrong thread ;D I was pleased by this little exchange of ideas. 


Back to topic:
Our unsteady list of possible Tobis was stretched again:

Obito
Izuna
Shisui
Elder Son
Madara, but please why would we need another one-.-


----------



## Shaz (May 15, 2012)

An interesting new video of a theory about Tobi. Listen carefully.

New York Knicks


I now think though, after seeing this video, and Izuna theories that Tobi is a mixture/recarnation of Izuna with Zetsu, thus being a 'shell' of his former self.


----------



## MYJC (May 15, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Our unsteady list of possible Tobis was stretched again:
> 
> Obito
> Izuna
> ...



Well, because the original died before he got a chance to finish the Moon's Eye Plan. Obviously he needed to make a clone to carry out his plans.


----------



## NW (May 15, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Yes that's the point, Zetsu is definately the embodiment of Yin and Yang. Yin and Yang are the Uchiha and the Senju. Therefore the black side consists of Uchiha chakra, the white site Senju chakra. The Shisui thing was more like a spontanous idea, based on the fact that his body disappeared and I don't believe that his role in the story is over. I doubt that he is Tobi so I think he has to do something with Zetsu.
> But you are right the timeline doesn't fit. That Madarathing, I heard of it before and I like the theory, that Zetsu was "born" in the clash of Madara and Hashirama.
> However I think we will hear a lot more of Zetsu as well as Shisui, whoever he may be. And there is no doubt that white Zetsu embodies Senju, while the black one embodies Uchiha, but any further things are speculations in the wrong thread ;D I was pleased by this little exchange of ideas.
> 
> ...



Lol, you should probably take Madara off XD. I think it's pretty clear by now that it's not him. he obviously doesn't look THAT much like him since he's still wearing a mask. Plus, he acts nothing like Madara. Madara is a fast acting, douchebaggy, warrior type. Tobi is a planning, cunning, patient, and slightly emo(lol) type. Plus, he always said "I am Uchiha Madara" over and over again trying to reinforce it. So, there's no way it's him. Like you said, we've got like 26 Madaras now, why do people need/want another one? Would it really make THAT big a difference????


----------



## Shaz (May 15, 2012)

Izuna / Zetsu theory

The real Madara does reveal that he got hold of Hashirama's cells (Has Hashirama's damn head mounted to his chest), and awakened the Rinnegan, that could explain why Tobi says to Konan that Nagato's Rinnegan was his to begin with, because Tobi was a Zetsu clone which Madara made with the body of Izuna, notice that when Tobi fought Minato, Tobi's arm was falling off, with a sort of white stretchy substance, which explains he is a Zetsu but with the shell of Izuna being why he isn't so pale as seen when his mask was broken. Madara told Tobi to give Nagato his own eyes so that when he did die, Nagato would be used to ressurect Madara but Tobi being resurrected Izuna who disliked that Madara took his eyes and left him to die thus ditched the plan and took Nagato's Rinnegan back as the only way Madara had awakened the Rinnegan was because of his eyes as Madara's ones had lost light and even if he had Hashirama's cells he would of needed his Sharingan to awaken Rinnegan, so really he sees that the Rinnegan were awakened because of his sacrifice for Madara, thus Tobi says that he is a shell of his former self, and also clenches his fist when he tells Sasuke that Madara took Izuna's eyes. 

Also note that Edo Madara does say something alike to 'So this means Nagato has grown up' and 'If I knew you were all (Kages) so weak, I would of taught Hashirama how to ressurect himself', that is a small clue to Madara's ressurection plan. So this means that Tobi betrayed Madara, being Izuna's ressurected shell with Zetsu which is made up of Hashirama's cells, which made it possible for Tobi to use Rinnegan.

To conclude - If Tobi is a Zetsu, having Izuna's body also would explain why Tobi isn't completely pale, but is much stronger than the other Zetsu. A good indicator that he is Zetsu, is when he fought Minato and his arm fell off with a tangy white substance.


- Explains some events (Arm falling off, being able to heal after a massive blow from Konan as he is a Zetsu)
- He isn't as powerful as he once was (Clue is when he says he is a shell of his former self, meaning he is Izuna ressurected by Madara for his own use, and is a Zetsu as well)
- Explains how he can use Rinnegan as well (He is part Zetsu, and part Uchiha, which give him Senju and Uchiha cells)
- Tobi probably impersonates Madara because he betrays Madara and takes over Madara's plan and tries to remove the real Madara from the picture and takes the idea of Madara using Hashirama's cells as he is part Zetsu in his Izuna body, and to avoid having people know he is a weaker Izuna who was resurrected with a Zetsu clone, which is why he was probably surprised when he saw Kabuto re-animated Madara with Edo Tensei. This probably explains why Kabuto was interested in Yamato, as he probably found out Madara took Hashirama's cells to awaken Rinnegan, which is why Tobi didn't trust Kabuto from the beginning.


EDIT: My theory in the end may not be right but I heavily believe that Izuna and Zetsu are involved to create 'Tobi' and that I believe is why Tobi chooses to make an army of Zetsu as he knows their abilities as he is part Zetsu himself. 

I will try add to my theory with more thorough research however others are welcome to add to it if they wish.


----------



## DeK3iDE (May 15, 2012)

jingson said:


> Tobi is not madara or of anyone from the uchiha clan... my basis? he have the sharinggan on his right eye and rinnegan on his left when the manga states the rinnegan is the evolution of sharinggan. notice how edo madara just have the rinnegan now while tobi got both...
> 
> My guess is Tobi's sharinggan is stolen kinda like Danzos thats why they both have to cover their other eye
> 
> P.S. as the story unfolds sasuke will have the rinnegan thats my theory.


Here's the holes in your theory though:

*he had to surgically implant the Rinnegan in himself. For all we know the Sharingan he has could be his own MS considering the jikukan jutsu that seems to come from

*The reason Tobi seems to have had it covered then was to prevent accidentally executing Izanagi since all it took to activate against Konan was simply by exposing it. Idk if he was being in character saying it but i can't shake the line where he tells Konan "don't understimate the powers of an Uchiha child!" Kakashi and Danzo never spoke like that when using a Sharingan against anyone

*There doesn't seem to be any other explanation as to why he is able to use the powers of both eyes as much as he has and not be the least bit fatigued like Kakashi/Danzo

*And the real kicker is, that guy knows way too much about things that happened in the very distant past in detail, especially the things concerning Rikudou, his sons, Madara and Izuna, plus the village's founding. Not even Kabuto/Oro seemed to have known such things


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 15, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Lol, you should probably take Madara off XD. I think it's pretty clear by now that it's not him. he obviously doesn't look THAT much like him since he's still wearing a mask. Plus, he acts nothing like Madara. Madara is a fast acting, douchebaggy, warrior type. Tobi is a planning, cunning, patient, and slightly emo(lol) type. Plus, he always said "I am Uchiha Madara" over and over again trying to reinforce it. So, there's no way it's him. Like you said, we've got like 26 Madaras now, why do people need/want another one? Would it really make THAT big a difference????



Yeah that's it. I set Madara on the list for the people who still believe in this theory, but as I and you said, we don't need a 27th Madara.


----------



## Shaz (May 15, 2012)

Tobi is just an impersonator he used Madara's name to exploit fear, and I really think Tobi has to be no other than a mangled Izuna with Zetsu cells, as explained in my theory which is kind of based a bit from the Youtube video I posted. It fits quite well, has to be something similar.


----------



## Raventhal (May 15, 2012)

*Tobi's MS design, the hidden Sharingan*

Tobi likely has MS or the Moons Eye Plan wouldn't work since he didn't seem intent on raising Madara.  As seen with Tobi prior to the Madara impersonation his Sharingan was hidden not far fetched for MS to as well.

To me the reason why he has MS is during T/S jutsu his eye is hidden.  If its not MS why hide his Sharingan?  How do you port with just a regular Sharingan? Why hide his MS period? Likely cuz its a known MS design.  Though could be artist decision for not showing it.

Known MS unaccounted for...

1. Obito's right eye.  Left eye has T/S jutsu.
2. Elder sons. Not sure what his eyes are.
3. Madara's brother.
4. Madara.  Likely the eyes were given to Nagato.  Though there is a chance Nagato was given uchiha eyes and woke the Rinnegan instead of sharingan cuz of his younger son bloodline.

I lean towards 1.  That regardless of idenity the MS design will match Kakashi's.

Also why did Tobi cover his left eye when he had another working Sharingan?  Everyone we have seen that cover their Sharingan is to prevent chakra drain because they are not Uchiha.  Is Tobi not Uchiha or wholly Uchiha?  

Some evidence points to that he is not Uchiha like he seems unable deactivate his Sharingan.  Since his Madara reveal he has not been shown with it off except during teleportation.  We know through EMS that Uchiha can shut off other Uchiha eyes.  

We also know that at least his arms are Zetsu like or Zetsu goo.  There are Zetsu theories so I won't go far here.  The possibility of him being a more advanced human Uchiha/Senju Zetsu mix is there.


----------



## MYJC (May 15, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Lol, you should probably take Madara off XD. I think it's pretty clear by now that it's not him. he obviously doesn't look THAT much like him since he's still wearing a mask. Plus, he acts nothing like Madara. Madara is a fast acting, douchebaggy, warrior type. Tobi is a planning, cunning, patient, and slightly emo(lol) type. Plus, he always said "I am Uchiha Madara" over and over again trying to reinforce it. So, there's no way it's him. Like you said, we've got like 26 Madaras now, why do people need/want another one? Would it really make THAT big a difference????



He's not Madara, he's a _clone_ of Madara. There's a difference. 

A clone doesn't have to be a perfect copy or look exactly like the original. Hell, White Zetsu is a clone of the 1st and he looks nothing like him. And a clone doesn't have to have the same personality either. Being born a clone he'd have different motivations and experiences than the original. 

Evidence:

1. Kabuto tells Madara that he's not sure if the "fake Madara" will follow the plan. So yeah, Kabuto pretty much flat out told us who Tobi is. 

2. Tobi is able to control the Kyuubi, which only Madara is supposed to be able to do. A clone with the same eyes would be able to do this, however. 

3. Tobi says he's "no one". He's not lying. With the real Madara back in the picture he doesn't have an identity. While Madara is dead, Tobi is "Madara", but when he's alive Tobi isn't anyone. 

4. Tobi says that the only thing he cares about is completing the Moon's Eye Plan. Why? Because it's literally the reason he was created. He has no other purpose.

5. We've seen that Tobi is at least partially made of Zetsu goo. More evidence that he's a (Zetsu) clone. He has some of the 1st Hokage's DNA which is why he can use Rinnegan. 



So here's most of the story:


-After surviving VotE, Madara stole the 1st Hokage's DNA and spent years experimenting with it
-These experiments eventually led to him creating Tobi and Zetsu
-They also led to him unlocking the Rinnegan
-Unfortunately, by the time he unlocked it, he was old and probably didn't have long to live
-So he comes up with the "Moon's Eye Plan"
-He also finds an Uzumaki kid, Nagato, and orders Tobi to implant Nagato with his eyes after he dies, and then to have Nagato revive him (Madara) once he grows up and masters the Rinnegan. Nagato was chosen because he's an Uzumaki and has a lot of chakra, and would be able to use it well.
-Madara dies, and leaves Tobi in charge of carrying out the Moon's Eye Plan (which involves collecting the tailed beasts) and making sure Nagato revives him
-Tobi does as he was ordered, but decides that it would be best to have a group of powerful ninja to collect the Bjuu. So after Nagato and co. grow up, he (posing as Madara) gives Yahiko the idea to form Akatsuki. After Yahiko dies he has Nagato take over. 
-We know most of what happened after this. After Nagato betrays Tobi and uses Rinne Tensei for something else (besides reviving Madara), Tobi (who probably resents having to work for Madara) pretty much just decides to become the 10-tails host himself and take over the world rather than bothering to revive Madara. 
Kabuto knows or at least suspects this, which is why he warns Madara that the "fake Madara" may not follow the plan. It's also why Tobi really doesn't like that Madara is back in the picture.


Tobi and Naruto are opposites. Naruto was forced to host a tailed beasts and struggles to prove that he isn't just the nine-tails and is his own person. Tobi has no real identity so he wants to become the 10-tails host to give himself an identity.


----------



## Raventhal (May 15, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Izuna / Zetsu theory
> 
> The real Madara does reveal that he got hold of Hashirama's cells (Has Hashirama's damn head mounted to his chest), and awakened the Rinnegan, that could explain why Tobi says to Konan that Nagato's Rinnegan was his to begin with, because Tobi was a Zetsu clone which Madara made with the body of Izuna, notice that when Tobi fought Minato, Tobi's arm was falling off, with a sort of white stretchy substance, which explains he is a Zetsu but with the shell of Izuna being why he isn't so pale as seen when his mask was broken. Madara told Tobi to give Nagato his own eyes so that when he did die, Nagato would be used to ressurect Madara but Tobi being resurrected Izuna who disliked that Madara took his eyes and left him to die thus ditched the plan and took Nagato's Rinnegan back as the only way Madara had awakened the Rinnegan was because of his eyes as Madara's ones had lost light and even if he had Hashirama's cells he would of needed his Sharingan to awaken Rinnegan, so really he sees that the Rinnegan were awakened because of his sacrifice for Madara, thus Tobi says that he is a shell of his former self, and also clenches his fist when he tells Sasuke that Madara took Izuna's eyes.
> 
> ...



This is a good idea.  He could have brought Izuna back with the Rinnegan.  

I think his other half of his face is Zetsu like.  That is why his left eye was covered because since it's not Uchiha he had chakra drain on that Sharingan if he didn't hide it like all other Non-uchiha sharigan users.

I also think his main sharingan is Obito's.  It would make sense if he's Izuna because he would have had no eyes.  Taking a fallen Obito's eye as a replacement.  I think we will see a MS from his that matches Kakashi.


----------



## Talis (May 16, 2012)

MYJC said:


> He's not Madara, he's a _clone_ of Madara. There's a difference.
> 
> A clone doesn't have to be a perfect copy or look exactly like the original. Hell, White Zetsu is a clone of the 1st and he looks nothing like him. And a clone doesn't have to have the same personality either. Being born a clone he'd have different motivations and experiences than the original.
> 
> ...


1: Kabuto doesn't know his identity....
2: ''With both Senju and Uchiha Dna you can controle the Kyuubi'' a nice reason for a fodder like Obito to controle the Kyuubi.
3: And again....., ''i am nobody, *I DON'T WANT TO BE ANYBODY.* So he wants to be an anybody while he's already a nobody? Worst stupid line to use it for a theory, thats the same shit creating a ''Sakura is the strongest character because Konohamura said that she's the best'' theory.
4: ...
5: How does that hints to you that he's a Madara clone?


----------



## Almondsand (May 16, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I'll take that bet. I could use the money.



You going for Obito right? OK you might as well get that money ready right now. Easy



TobiUchiha111 said:


> Lol, you're crazy if you think I'm gonna bet money on Tobi's identity. (That's going a little too far over a manga....) I will however, just casually bet you that he is either Shisui, Izuna, Obito, or the Sage of Six Paths' Older Son. Anyone else would be bullshit, IMO.


Come on I'm tired of these casual bets, we should do money and you should do it with all those theories so I can take your money. 



loool3 said:


> Wheres our previous $1.000 since you lost already with your Tobidara theory?


Fuck you talking about? Bring up that evidence where I lost on anything and made that bet with you. First off I never had a Tobidara theory, what I believe is that Tobi is an extension of Madara's will, made up of other beings, like a cell from DBZ. Also neg my dick out your mouth, you neg me without any validating reason.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 16, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Also why did Tobi cover his left eye when he had another working Sharingan?  Everyone we have seen that cover their Sharingan is to prevent chakra drain because they are not Uchiha.  Is Tobi not Uchiha or wholly Uchiha?



He could also cover his eye to use Izanagi without anyone noticing.
When he uses Izanagi his left eye disappears, but noone sees it, because it's covered, so noone can analyze the technique.



> Some evidence points to that he is not Uchiha like he seems unable deactivate his Sharingan.  Since his Madara reveal he has not been shown with it off except during teleportation.  We know through EMS that Uchiha can shut off other Uchiha eyes.



We don't know whether he is unable to deactivate it. He frequently uses his S/T-jutsu, this could be a reason for him to permanently activate it:
A surprise attack on a Tobi with disabled Sharingan would end in a desaster for him.


----------



## Talis (May 16, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> Fuck you talking about? Bring up that evidence where I lost on anything and made that bet with you. First off I never had a Tobidara theory, what I believe is that Tobi is an extension of Madara's will, made up of other beings, like a cell from DBZ. Also neg my dick out your mouth, you neg me without any validating reason.


Yeah yeah sure, when Tobi was around still claiming being Madara you was like ''he isn't Madara but he's a Madara clone'', right? 
Oh well, you really wanted to have a description on your neg? Mr wannabe gangster, go wash your mouth with some soap. 

Obito's chance is just growing more when the new chapters keeps 
coming, Izanami is another simple reason which Madara might have used on him.


----------



## Escargon (May 16, 2012)

I dont think Kishi wants to make Tobis identity too advanced. 

I have read some mangas, and there have been characters that have stolen a legendary mans name to inflict fear to the world.

The funny part is, that they have no identity, they just lived a sad life and really TOOK the identity of the legendary man.

An example, if Kishi is following this path, Tobi is a nobody, a sad guy, who not only took Madaras name, he really implanted Madara into himself to look like Madara but is hiding his face anyway cause he fears something.

Hopefully Tobi is not one of these characters but it happens sometimes..

I myself think its Obito who replaced his crushed body with Madara and Senju DNA.


----------



## Almondsand (May 16, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Yeah yeah sure, when Tobi was around still claiming being Madara you was like ''he isn't Madara but he's a Madara clone'', right?
> Oh well, you really wanted to have a description on your neg? Mr wannabe gangster, go wash your mouth with some soap.
> 
> Obito's chance is just growing more when the new chapters keeps
> coming, Izanami is another simple reason which Madara might have used on him.



And I still stick by that theory, because Tobi is in some way, shape, or form Uchiha Madara.


----------



## NW (May 16, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> And I still stick by that theory, because Tobi is in some way, shape, or form Uchiha Madara.
> 
> Stop being a butthurt Tobito nerd negging me and just place your bet on what you believe in, because not only your tears will satisfy me but a fat pocket of Benjamin Franklin clones will.



Do you understand storytelling at all? Do you even comprehend how terrible of a twist and how horrible writing it would be for Tobi to still somehow be Madara? Come on, now. Kishi is above that. At least give the man some respect and don't think that the FINAL VILLAIN of his series is going to be a mere clone. Seriously, all this suspense just for him to be a mere clone of the person we thought he was before?! The only thing you're probably basing his "Madaraness" off is the fact that they look alike, which probably isn't completely true because, if his face looked just like Madara's then why would he need to wear a mask? And if you're going to reply, at least have some good reasoning, don't just yell some random crap at me like, "suck my dick!", "I'm gonna be right in the end!", or whatever stuff that you usually tell people. Because, if you reply with something so senseless and dumb, all it will accomplish is proving that I'm a better debater than you and that you clearly cannot refute what I said.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 16, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> You going for Obito right? OK you might as well get that money ready right now. Easy



You don't have to worry about me, just have your end of the pool ready and don't poorfag out when you lose.


----------



## NW (May 16, 2012)

For those of you thinking that Tobi can't be Obito, then why has Kakashi's year been delayed for so long? And why has Kishi never revealed what happened to Rin or how Kakashi got his Mangekyo? Kishi even said in a very recent interview that Kakashi's year would definitely be this year. And, I think it's pretty safe to presume that Tobi's identity will be revealed this year as well. So, do the math. Also, Kishi has a pattern for main villain in this series. The villains usually were originally on a team that paralleled Team 7, but something happened that made that person go batshit crazy. Considering how consistent Kishi is with themes, I think it's pretty safe to say that Tobi will follow this pattern as well. Now, which plausible tobi candidate was on a team paralleling Team 7, and hasn't had a villain come from it yet? Team 7. And, it's also kind of hard to not notice how completely Obito paralleled Naruto. Therefore, an evil Obito would make a great final villain for the series and would be a complete opposite of Naruto.


----------



## Shaz (May 16, 2012)

I think we all know though, whoever Tobi is, may that be Obito or Izuna or whatever depending on your opinion/theory/findings that Tobi has to be part Zetsu.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 17, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I think we all know though, whoever Tobi is, may that be Obito or Izuna or whatever depending on your opinion/theory/findings that Tobi has to be part Zetsu.



Only in the sense that his body is comprised of the same material.


----------



## Mateush (May 17, 2012)

I really doubt Tobi is Obito, since Madara knows who Tobi is and we know he probably died while Nagato was very young. Obito was not born during that time.


----------



## NW (May 17, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I really doubt Tobi is Obito, since Madara knows who Tobi is and we know he probably died while Nagato was very young. Obito was not born during that time.




You really shouldn't doubt all the evidence for Obito over one small inconsistency. Kishi could easily explain that. Maybe it's possible that Madara lived past Nagato but before Nagato could fully grow, he met Obito. Or, maybe Madara "lost" Nagato, like loool3 suggested. There's also a possibilty that Black Zetsu is a "Fake Madara" and he was an extension of Madara's will So, Madara could have been talking about Zetsu and not Tobi. Black Zetsu could have found Obito, seen that he would be useful on his side due to his extremely powerful eyes, and White Zetsu repaired his body. And told him all about the past or even literally showed it to him if he recorded it.


----------



## jacamo (May 17, 2012)

wow 14 pages already... time for my re-post

Tobi = Uchiha Kagami 

Kakashi will mistaken him for Uchiha Obito because Uchiha Kagami was his father, it was Obito's death which pushed Kagami over the edge


----------



## Talis (May 17, 2012)

If Kishi doesn't hurry with revealing Tobi's identity then Kakashis year is gonna be delayed again. 
Before that happens Edo Madara and Itachi has to confirm that the long haired masked man was indeed the real Madara, and they still have to reveal everything of their secrets.
After that Kishi can reveal Tobi obviously since he'd have revealed everything about Madara and that night.
Meanwhile there will be more Tobi= Madara clone supporters because Kisame ''recognized'' Tobi as Madara the real long haired one at Yagura's place.


----------



## Shaz (May 17, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Only in the sense that his body is comprised of the same material.




This is what I think. I think  it is a possibility he is a ressurected/weaker shell of Izuna, and part Zetsu, which allows him to enable Rinnegan. Madara was incharge of him, but it seems he has betrayed Madara.


----------



## GanstaCatCT (May 17, 2012)

*Who is Tobi?*

For a while Kishimoto has been playing around with us about the whole "Who is Tobi?" thing. I guess we won't know for sure until it's actually revealed in the manga, but this is my guess for now. There are a lot of places to start, so I'll just start with the eye techniques.

When Tobi was first introduced to Sasuke in the manga, he had a standard 3 tomoe sharingan in his right eye. From that point on, it never turned off, signifying that it is an implant. Furthermore, Tobi has an entire wall of sharingan in glass jars, so that also says something. The fact that he had to cover up his left sharingan with his orange mask also signifies that it's also an implant. Now this is where it might get confusing to some of you. Throughout the Naruto series, Kakashi has covered up his sharingan with his forehead protector to conserve chakra. It is unknown whether this is because it is an implant, or because he is not a blood relative of the Uchiha. Either or, the same applies for Tobi. Moving on, when Tobi fought Konan, he was forced to use izanagi, signifying that he had both Uchiha and Senju DNA, so that narrows down the amount of people he could be. After that battle, he took Nagato's rinnegan and implanted it in the eye that had been lost to izanagi. From then until current time, he has had both of his eyes open, sharingan and rinnegan. Now going back to the battle with Konan. Tobi said to her that the rinnegan was rightfully his, since he was the one who gave it to Nagato. That was actually the point in time where it hit me that something was really coming together. As I stated before about the sharingan, it takes chakra to use it either if it is an implant or you are not an Uchiha. My guess is because it's an implant. The rinnegan could be able to be kept open all the time because it was originally his rinnegan. This may have sounded really confusing, but this information has brought me to a rough conclusion. It is that Tobi is just Tobi, and has gone through some mad stuff to accomplish what he has get what he has. On top of that, there are way to many factors to take into consideration to draw any final conclusions.

I'm not saying these are the only possibilities, there are other theories too, such as the Obito theory. Thank you for your time if you actually had the patience to read all the way through.


----------



## NW (May 18, 2012)

Kamui: Katon

Tobi's Space-Time Ninjutsu: Katon





See the resemblance?


----------



## Talis (May 18, 2012)

It still not confirmed also whether Kakuzu used fake arms to replace Deidara's or whether Tobi went in the Kamui's dimension to get the arms back too.


----------



## son_michael (May 18, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It still not confirmed also whether Kakuzu used fake arms to replace Deidara's or whether Tobi went in the Kamui's dimension to get the arms back too.




Kakuzu gave diedara a new arm, that was confirmed


----------



## NW (May 18, 2012)

Man, I can't wait to see Kakashi's shocked face when that damn mask comes off!!!!! 

Tobi: *Takes off Mask*

Kakashi: o_________________________________________O


----------



## DeK3iDE (May 19, 2012)

> For those of you thinking that Tobi can't be Obito, then why has Kakashi's year been delayed for so long? And why has Kishi never revealed what happened to Rin or how Kakashi got his Mangekyo?


Maybe because the dude got BURIED IN A ROCK AVALANCHE? Unless he magically found a way out he is not Tobi, let alone the fact that Tobi and Madara are co-conspirators and Madara seems to know exactly who it is. Somehow I highly doubt Obito was ever alive when Project Moon Eye was put together. And btw, Kakashi got the MS from training over the time skip. Am i the only one who put that together?


----------



## NW (May 19, 2012)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> Maybe because the dude got BURIED IN A ROCK AVALANCHE? Unless he magically found a way out he is not Tobi, let alone the fact that Tobi and Madara are co-conspirators and Madara seems to know exactly who it is. Somehow I highly doubt Obito was ever alive when Project Moon Eye was put together. And btw, Kakashi got the MS from training over the time skip. Am i the only one who put that together?



Well, Obito really did think that he was going to lose his friends due to his death. The pain of this loss could have caused him to awaken his mangekyo sharingan and spontaneously intangiate(?) his way out of the rocks. We have no confirmation on when Madara died. And, what do you mean that Kakashi got MS from training? That's not even possible. Training is not the requirement for MS. It's only when you feel the pain of someone close to you dying. Unless, someone Kakashi knew just happened to die during said training. Hell, I still think it's suspicious that a non-Uchiha awakened Mangekyo in the first place. obito just has to be involved in this.


----------



## Talis (May 19, 2012)

son_michael said:


> Kakuzu gave diedara a new arm, that was confirmed


Link pls?
I am curous about it.


----------



## Talis (May 19, 2012)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> Maybe because the dude got BURIED IN A ROCK AVALANCHE? Unless he magically found a way out he is not Tobi, let alone the fact that Tobi and Madara are co-conspirators and Madara seems to know exactly who it is. Somehow I highly doubt Obito was ever alive when Project Moon Eye was put together. And btw, Kakashi got the MS from training over the time skip. Am i the only one who put that together?


So what Madara was also supposed to be death, and so was Minato when he came back in the Kyuubi's belly...
Enough shit reasons to make him having survived the rock.


----------



## Mantux31 (May 19, 2012)

What if.. Tobi.. IS NOT AN UCHIHA?


----------



## Shaz (May 19, 2012)

To be honest, as much as I hate to say it, we all know Kishi and his 'stories' are far-fetched sometimes, and even if it doesn't seem possible, it happens.

I really think Tobi is Izuna (Or his cells) + Zetsu (Which contain Hashirama's cells, to allow Tobi to use Rinnegan). Though recently, I have thought about Kagami Uchiha as Tobi as well, as his Sensei was Tobirama, maybe he used the first four letters of his name, and Kagami was in Danzo's three man cell, which is why he pitied Danzo (If I remember correct) when he was killed by Sasuke. Kagami Uchiha could also be the son of Izuna or Madara, as his age would fit the bill for that. He could be a character which was purposely introduced lightly but with some brief hints of being Tobi.

Going back to my first sentence, you never know that Kishi will just decide it is Obito's body used as a vessel, and Zetsu was sent on a mission by Madara to retrieve this vessel, and found Obito and used his cells/body parts to create the Tobi you see today, with repairs, thus Tobi's face looks like it's going to melt.

I've just learnt to wait a bit, and just find out rather than making scrambled brain inside my skull figuring out who Tobi really is, though it is always interesting to read other peoples theories. Kishimoto has done things a few times where he pulls a story which seemed unlikely, it's because he can, simple as that. I just also think aside from my own theory, that Kishi could possibly complete Kakashi's story soon enough, with what really happened to Rin, after the shock of seeing Obito's mangled body parts being used as a vessel for "Tobi". Remember never take anything so literally in this manga, anything can happen, and has happened in the past.

Yes I don't want it really to be Obito because I think it's unlikely but I've just learnt to understand that there is no such thing as impossible in Naruto, shit happens.


----------



## jacamo (May 19, 2012)

it cant be Obito  the timeline is completely off

Madara knows who Tobi is and Obito is way too young 



Mantux31 said:


> What if.. Tobi.. IS NOT AN UCHIHA?



what if its Senju Newaki???  take that NF


----------



## Talis (May 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> it cant be Obito  the timeline is completely off
> 
> Madara knows who Tobi is and Obito is way too young
> 
> ...


You gonna get stunned as soon as Edo Madara goes to Itachi and they will recognize each other, my theory about ''long haired masked man'' being the real Madara will become real.
It won't take long anymore since Kabuto is getting it harder.


----------



## Chibason (May 19, 2012)

He has to be a legendary ninja who is older than Madara/Shodai...

...and someone that the Uchiha respect...

Tobi is Sarutobi Sasuke.


----------



## Chibason (May 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Link pls?
> I am curous about it.





^As you can see, he has a new mid portion of an arm there, and Kakuzu is the one who sewed it on for him. 

but the arm's origins are unknown...it looks to be from a dead body however.


----------



## NW (May 19, 2012)

Tobi's identity by process of elimination!!!:


Fugaku: He looks NOTHING like Tobi. Their facial features don't match at ALL. Besides, If Tobi was Fugaku, Sasuke would have recognized him. Fugaku's hair was it's normal length a day before the massacre. Yet, during the massacre, Tobi has Madara-like hair. There's no way that Fugaku could grow his hair so long in such a short time. Also, Fugaku wouldn't be old enough to have wrinkles.   Final Word: Tobi =/= Fugaku


Kagami: No. Kagami doesn't even look like Tobi. First of all, Kagami is a small little fodder character with absolutely no story relevance at all. Also, Kagami's eyelids are way too long to be Tobi's.   Final Word: Tobi =/= Kagami

Madara: Edo Tensei'd. 'Nuff said.   Final Word: Tobi =/= Madara

Madara Clone: There's no way. First of all, it would be super anticlimactic and this isn't the kind of twist Kishi would pull. Second of all, if he looked just like Madara, then why the mask?   Final Word: Tobi =/= Madara Clone

Elder Son: Makes some amount of sense I guess. I mean, he has the same ideals as Tobi. But, how would he still be alive. And why does he look nothing like Tobi? It's possible that the Elder Son learned to survive by possessing different bodies(Fushi Tensei) and he could currently be in the body of someone recognizable, but It wouldn't really make a good twist for it to just be someone else in another person's body. Whoever Tobi is, he has to be himself completely, body and soul, and must be doing this of his own free will. Anything otherwise would probably result in an anti-climax.   Final Word: Tobi =/= Elder Son

Shisui: It would be a pretty cool twist, I guess. But, there are way too many things that contradict it. First of all, Shisui was a well known shinobi. How could he have been manipulating Yagura in another village for so long without anyone noticing? Also, Shisui's facial features seem to match Tobi's except for that dark line coming out of the tips of Shisui's eyes. And Tobi attacked the village BEFORE Shisui got a fucked up body. So, bottom line, this indicates they are two different people.   Final Word: Tobi =/= Shisui

Izuna: This seems possible, I guess. i think it would be kind of cliche though. Although not as cliche as Fugaku. Izuna's facial features match Tobi's. And, there are some quotes of Tobi that support it being him. Although Madara said he had died, he could have revived Izuna with Rinne Tensei.   Final Word: Tobi could possibly be Izuna.

Obito: This one seems like the most plausible to me. There is really nothing solid to conradict it. Most of the things people use against it are people's own assumptions on the timeline. Until the timeline is further confirmed, this theory still stands and is very plausible in my eyes. Obito's facial features match tobi perfectly, Eyebrows, eyelid, even eyeshape. (Yes they have the same basic shape of the eye, Tobi's is just smaller and more serious looking probably because he has gotten older and matured) It's also Kishi's writing style from what we've seen and fits great thematically.   Final Word: Tobi could very possibly be Obito.


So, by process of elimination, I've narrowed it down to either Obito or Izuna. Out of these two, I think that Obito is the more likely option.


----------



## Talis (May 19, 2012)

Chibason said:


> ^As you can see, he has a new mid portion of an arm there, and Kakuzu is the one who sewed it on for him.
> 
> but the arm's origins are unknown...it looks to be from a dead body however.


Wasn't his hands even sucked? 
Look at his hands it still has a mouth. 
I win?


----------



## NW (May 19, 2012)

Chibason said:


> He has to be a legendary ninja who is older than Madara/Shodai...
> 
> ...and someone that the Uchiha respect...
> 
> Tobi is Sarutobi Sasuke.



You've gotta be kiddin' me. The guy was mentioned in one chapter, we know absolutely NOTHING about him, and yet people are accusing him of being the main villain? He would be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too old to still be alive. It's just not possible. And even if he were somehow still alive, then how could he be able to move around so well like Tobi does without breaking his back?! And what do you mean, "someone that the Uchiha respect"? He's not even a God damn Uchiha!!!! He's a Sarutobi.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (May 19, 2012)

Gentlemen, place your bets.


----------



## Shaz (May 19, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Tobi's identity by process of elimination!!!:
> Kagami: No. Kagami doesn't even look like Tobi. First of all, Kagami is a small little fodder character with absolutely no story relevance at all. Also, Kagami's eyelids are way too long to be Tobi's.   Final Word: Tobi =/= Kagami



"Small little fodder characters" would work well as Tobi, seeing as no one would guess quickly. Kagami can't just be ruled out due to his story not being relevant infact we don't even know much about his story other than his squad and what not, he could be old enough to be Madara / Izuna's son, though my hopes are actually on Izuna himself, so I don't really think it will be Kagami.




TobiUchiha111 said:


> Madara Clone: There's no way. First of all, it would be super anticlimactic and this isn't the kind of twist Kishi would pull. Second of all, if he looked just like Madara, then why the mask?   Final Word: Tobi =/= Madara Clone



Completely agree. Tobi is definitely someone who knows he cannot get away acting Madara unmasked. Even now he hasn't removed his mask, perhaps he IS someone worth hiding even once his Madara-identity is blown.




TobiUchiha111 said:


> Elder Son: Makes some amount of sense I guess. I mean, he has the same ideals as Tobi. But, how would he still be alive. And why does he look nothing like Tobi? It's possible that the Elder Son learned to survive by possessing different bodies(Fushi Tensei) and he could currently be in the body of someone recognizable, but It wouldn't really make a good twist for it to just be someone else in another person's body. Whoever Tobi is, he has to be himself completely, body and soul, and must be doing this of his own free will. Anything otherwise would probably result in an anti-climax.   Final Word: Tobi =/= Elder Son



I really doubt it is the Elder Son, yes he couldn't really be alive, and by the looks of when Edo Madara was introduced, it seemed like Madara himself was incharge, and Tobi just overthrew him, so that means Tobi was originally taking orders from Madara,and seeing that he had a Zetsu like arm when fighting Minato. Just doesn't seem to me like the Elder son is the type to be taking orders from Madara, it seems Madara was incharge before being what looks like betrayal now by Tobi.



TobiUchiha111 said:


> Izuna: This seems possible, I guess. i think it would be kind of cliche though. Although not as cliche as Fugaku. Izuna's facial features match Tobi's. And, there are some quotes of Tobi that support it being him. Although Madara said he had died, he could have revived Izuna with Rinne Tensei.   Final Word: Tobi could possibly be Izuna.



I have suspicions that Tobi is a mixture of Zetsu and someone else, possibly Izuna. It would make sense because lets say Izuna gave Madara his eyes, and ran into battle but got injured quite badly, and Madara created Zetsu using Hashirama's cells to repair his limbs. I'm quite sure Zetsu is the only person who knows who Tobi is, why? Because when Tobi took the name of Madara as his identity, Zetsu continued to address him as Tobi, so perhaps he knew he wasn't Madara. Tobi also quite casually fixed his arm using Zetsu after Konan's death as if it was routine which explains he is part Zetsu, as well as going back to my point of when he fought Minato and his arm almost fell off with a stretchy, gooie Zetsu-like substance. We also must remember that it was Madara didn't like that Uchiha and Senju were in coalition in building Konnoha, so he probably felt betrayed that his fellow Uchiha members were complying, so he and his brother probably didn't care about the rest of the Uchiha anymore, which is why Izuna who may be Tobi helped Itachi achieve the massacre of the Uchiha clan. I noticed when Tobi was speaking to Konan, he said the Rinnegan was his to begin with. Now Tobi is known to be a bit of a liar as well as a person who twists reality in his words. What if he is Izuna, and because he had given Madara his Sharingans which allowed Madara to continue his fight with Hashirama, which resulted in Madara receiving Hashirama's cells and unlocking the Rinnegan, this explains that Izuna probably felt as if he should of been the one with the Rinnegan, as the Sharingan which was used in combination to Hashirama's cells were his, so really he may think it was because of him Madara got the rinnegan. Also Izuna may of only co-operated with Madara and got Zetsu implants because he was weak, and knew Madara had more strength, and now when he saw Madara was dead, he took over Madara's plan, and betrayed him. 




TobiUchiha111 said:


> Obito: This one seems like the most plausible to me. There is really nothing solid to conradict it. Most of the things people use against it are people's own assumptions on the timeline. Until the timeline is further confirmed, this theory still stands and is very plausible in my eyes. Obito's facial features match tobi perfectly, Eyebrows, eyelid, even eyeshape. (Yes they have the same basic shape of the eye, Tobi's is just smaller and more serious looking probably because he has gotten older and matured) It's also Kishi's writing style from what we've seen and fits great thematically.   Final Word: Tobi could very possibly be Obito.



The thing that contradicts it is that how Tobi would know Madara at that time, because I'm sure Madara would of died during that time. What I do think is that is a possibility is that Madara created Zetsu after he had gotten Hashirama's cells and unlocked Rinnegan himself, and sent Zetsu to retrieve a vessel, which was Obito in this case, and used his limbs in combination to Zetsu to create Tobi. Madara then gave Tobi his rinnegan to give to Nagato.


----------



## Mantux31 (May 19, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> Gentlemen, place your bets.



This had to be done.


----------



## Chibason (May 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Wasn't his hands even sucked?
> Look at his hands it still has a mouth.
> I win?



LOL, you really don't know much about this subject do you? 

The bottom portion of his arm, including his hand, were not sucked in. It showed that portion dropping to the ground. Tobi then retrieved it and removed the akatsuki ring from it, right before Deidara showed up and took it back.


----------



## Chibason (May 19, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> You've gotta be kiddin' me.



Hahahahaha...allow me to educate you, my fresh faced friend. 



TobiUchiha111 said:


> The guy was mentioned in one chapter, we know absolutely NOTHING about him, and yet people are accusing him of being the main villain?



We also know next to nothing about Izuna, Kagami, Fugaku, or the Elder son...yet they are all common responses when this question is brought up. 

That's a non-point. 



TobiUchiha111 said:


> He would be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too old to still be alive. It's just not possible.And even if he were somehow still alive, then how could he be able to move around so well like Tobi does without breaking his back?!



Wrong again, not surprisingly I might add...Izuna & the Elder son would also be considerably old...hell even Madara was and we all accepted that. 

Age is irrelevant to a ninja's overall power in this manga. 



TobiUchiha111 said:


> And what do you mean, "someone that the Uchiha respect"? He's not even a God damn Uchiha!!!! He's a Sarutobi.



Thanks Captain, I hadn't noticed...but you may recall, that the leader of the Uchiha clan, Uchiha Fugaku, chose to name his son after Sarutobi Sasuke, and Mikoto praised him when speaking to Kushina also...


----------



## son_michael (May 19, 2012)

Chibason said:


> Wrong again, not surprisingly I might add...Izuna & the Elder son would also be considerably old...hell even Madara was and we all accepted that.
> 
> Age is irrelevant to a ninja's overall power in this manga.




O really? Where did you come up with that? It's a known fact that Sandaime Hokage was a beast in his youth and as an old man he was considerably weakened.


----------



## Chibason (May 19, 2012)

son_michael said:


> O really? Where did you come up with that? It's a known fact that Sandaime Hokage was a beast in his youth and as an old man he was considerably weakened.



He defeated the first and second Hokages, at the same time, right before his death...seemed pretty strong to me lol

Danzou was still strong as hell in his old age, and so was Chiyo for that matter.


----------



## Escargon (May 19, 2012)

Holy shit, Obito looks like Tobi with the mask on. 0o

I still think Tobi got Madara implanted into him, thats why it looks like Madara and its old. Dont tell me implants doesnt age. So the reason he wears a mask is cause he got two faces. 

Which is:

30% Obito or something similar. 70% a Senju, propably Nawaki.

And a Zetsu eye on the forehead that propably got used to record Madaras life and the leaf.

Seriously, he has to be Obito. I mean, you dont make two characters with the same hairstyle just like that. Kishi showed Madaras old face cause it really is Madaras old face, but implanted. Read chapter 510 and ask why the fk did Kishi shadow Tobis right face?

Yeah, if you WROTE this manga, WHY would you shadow the other face? Propably cause the face you showed is something you trick other with, that is, Madaras implanted face, and shadow the other face cause you dont want to show it and put a bandage on the Zetsu eye. What else?

Yes, tell me. If you look at c510 and think why you would actually draw like that. I dont like advanced theories. Think like Kishi. Use the easiest explanation.


----------



## son_michael (May 19, 2012)

Chibason said:


> He defeated the first and second Hokages, at the same time, right before his death...seemed pretty strong to me lol
> 
> Danzou was still strong as hell in his old age, and so was Chiyo for that matter.



Oh don't get me started on oro's fail tensei, that was not the same first and second Hokage, when they were alive they were insanely stronger. It's pretty much cannon that Hashirama was beyond any level presented in the manga so far besides rikuddo and possibly his 2 sons...and that's not what we saw in the fight with old saratobi.

Danzou's strength as a young man wasn't known. Onoki is another example of being stronger as a youth.


regardless, tobi is not an old man, that should be abundantly clear based off the little of his face that we have seen. There's always the possibility of an immortality justu though


----------



## Escargon (May 19, 2012)

I find it quite funny that people says Tobi and Madara is not related at all cause Madara is dead. 

You wana know why? They claim Tobi doesnt have Madara implanted cause Madara is dead. Tell me why.

So let us see.. a ninja lose half of his body and replaces it with a DEAD person. Tell me, will half of his body look like the dead person or will the universe implode?

And wana know something interesting? A part of this can be done IRL. Crazy huh?


----------



## Talis (May 19, 2012)

Chibason said:


> LOL, you really don't know much about this subject do you?
> 
> The bottom portion of his arm, including his hand, were not sucked in. It showed that portion dropping to the ground. Tobi then retrieved it and removed the akatsuki ring from it, right before Deidara showed up and took it back.


 Really?
The only thing i remember was Deidara being armless lol.


----------



## McLover (May 19, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> An interesting new video of a theory about Tobi. Listen carefully.
> 
> New York Knicks
> 
> ...



they didn't mention izuna being a part of tobi
and oh well, that's exactly my theory that i mentioned a dozen pages back in this thread that nobody discussed. they're too busy with their bull !


----------



## McLover (May 19, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Yeah that's it. I set Madara on the list for the people who still believe in this theory, but as I and you said, we don't need a 27th Madara.



who cares what you need, not all naruto is written the way we want it to be.
madara ftw


----------



## NW (May 19, 2012)

Chibason said:


> Hahahahaha...allow me to educate you, my fresh faced friend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In conclusion, I'd say this guy has like, a 3% chance of being Tobi. And even THAT'S being nice.


----------



## Raventhal (May 19, 2012)

Tobi could be the Elder Son.  Madara could have brought him back before he died.


----------



## NW (May 19, 2012)

McLover said:


> who cares what you need, not all naruto is written the way we want it to be.
> madara ftw



Lol, the same could be said for you. Kishi's not an idiot. He's not gonna make the FINAL VILLAIN adn the subject of ALL this mystery, just be a mere clone of the person we thought he was before. And, if Tobi looked just like Madara, why wear a mask. You need to take your own advice: "who cares what you need, not all naruto is written the way we want it to be.
*Obito* ftw"



McLover said:


> its unfortunate that you are the most point-misunderstanding person so far i passed by in this forum, congratulations!
> and no, the obito theory's only growing more in your world, so keep it that way plz!


 Ya know, it's a shame that people don't see how Obito is one of THE only logical choices for FV, if Kishi's intention is in fact to make Tobi THE EXACT opposite of Naruto, Obito would make the most sense. He fits so well from all these different angles, but I don't feel like explaining it all. (P.S. dude, stop double posting, you could get banned......)



Raventhal said:


> Tobi could be the Elder Son.  Madara could have brought him back before he died.


Possible. But, you're talking about Rinne Tensei right? Well, for Rinne Tensei to work, you need to have the body of the person you wish to revive, Elder Son's body would be all disintegrated by now, and even if it wasn't, how would Madara find it? Maybe it has something to do with the stone tablet.......


----------



## Shaz (May 19, 2012)

McLover said:


> they didn't mention izuna being a part of tobi
> and oh well, that's exactly my theory that i mentioned a dozen pages back in this thread that nobody discussed. they're too busy with their bull !



Yeah I know, I was just on about my theory in addition to theirs.


----------



## Easley (May 20, 2012)

If Kishi wants to surprise anyone then Tobi will not be an Uchiha. Those characters have been talked about endlessly and is almost expected at this point. Obito is boring and silly in equal measure. That theory has been around since Tobi's introduction... like 6 years. Tobito, Tobito, Tobito... blah blah, you can guarantee new Obito theories every day. For a major reveal it would be pathetic to use a popular fan theory, even if it was an option when Kishi created Tobi. Maybe he's been living under a rock writing Naruto and is not aware of Tobito, but if not, using it severely lacks imagination. All the Obito fanfiction has basically done the work for him. 

I'd actually laugh if Obito, in body and mind, is the final villain. Even his name makes me smile. To go from Kakashi Gaiden to ultimate enemy is farcical even by Naruto standards. However, Tobi using Obito's eye is plausible and gives a small concession to the theorists.

None of the Uchiha candidates are shocking to me. Fugaku would mindfuck Sasuke, sure, but he's just another name on a very short list.

Anyway, ever since Tobi showed his eye collection I doubted his Uchiha status. Zetsu goo also increased the mystery. When he turned out not to be Madara, all bets were off. He could be anyone.


----------



## Mateush (May 20, 2012)

Easley said:


> Anyway, ever since Tobi showed his eye collection I doubted his Uchiha status. Zetsu goo also increased the mystery. When he turned out not to be Madara, all bets were off. He could be anyone.



*Only if* he sadistically lied to Konan and Kabuto or he even believes he's Madara. So Madara in some way still is much more plausible than Obito joke-theories.


----------



## jacamo (May 20, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Tobi's identity by process of elimination!!!:
> 
> 
> Fugaku: He looks NOTHING like Tobi. Their facial features don't match at ALL. Besides, If Tobi was Fugaku, Sasuke would have recognized him. Fugaku's hair was it's normal length a day before the massacre. Yet, during the massacre, Tobi has Madara-like hair. There's no way that Fugaku could grow his hair so long in such a short time. Also, Fugaku wouldn't be old enough to have wrinkles.   Final Word: Tobi =/= Fugaku
> ...



what the hell happened to your objectivity?

Obito is possible but VERY unlikely... the amount of plotholes in that theory could sink a god damn ship, such as Tobi being too tall for a 16 year old, such as the generation gap being too large for Madara to know who Obito is

Kagami being a "small little fodder character" isnt a good enough reason for him not to be Tobi... timeline fits and there are ZERO plotholes


----------



## Talis (May 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> what the hell happened to your objectivity?
> 
> Obito is possible but VERY unlikely... the amount of plotholes in that theory could sink a god damn ship, such as Tobi being too tall for a 16 year old, such as the generation gap being too large for Madara to know who Obito is
> 
> Kagami being a "small little fodder character" isnt a good enough reason for him not to be Tobi... timeline fits and there are ZERO plotholes


Meh, don't make me remembering you again too a 13-15 years Itachi which was even tall as a 20 years old Kisame, or Naruto which was tall as his dad. 
On top of that the Zetsu goo boosted his seize.


----------



## jacamo (May 20, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Meh, don't make me remembering you again too a 13-15 years Itachi which was even tall as a 20 years old Kisame, or Naruto which was tall as his dad.
> On top of that the Zetsu goo boosted his seize.



lol what? Itachi is actually 18 the first time we see him with Kisame at the start of the series... Naruto and Sasuke are 12

Obito's contemporaries, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma, Kurenai, were all much smaller in size... its not a big plothole, but its still a plothole

its not like thats the only plothole anyway


----------



## Golden Circle (May 20, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> Gentlemen, place your bets.
> 
> [sp][/sp]


Wow, I do believe Tobi is none of those people. 

I really want to change my vote in the poll right about now.


----------



## Talis (May 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> lol what? Itachi is actually 18 the first time we see him with Kisame at the start of the series... Naruto and Sasuke are 12
> 
> Obito's contemporaries, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma, Kurenai, were all much smaller in size... its not a big plothole, but its still a plothole
> 
> its not like thats the only plothole anyway


lol, i am just talking about when he just joined the Akatsuki at the bridge, which he did soon after the Uchiha masacre.


----------



## NW (May 20, 2012)

Easley said:


> If Kishi wants to surprise anyone then Tobi will not be an Uchiha. Those characters have been talked about endlessly and is almost expected at this point. Obito is boring and silly in equal measure. That theory has been around since Tobi's introduction... like 6 years. Tobito, Tobito, Tobito... blah blah, you can guarantee new Obito theories every day. For a major reveal it would be pathetic to use a popular fan theory, even if it was an option when Kishi created Tobi. Maybe he's been living under a rock writing Naruto and is not aware of Tobito, but if not, using it severely lacks imagination. All the Obito fanfiction has basically done the work for him.
> 
> I'd actually laugh if Obito, in body and mind, is the final villain. Even his name makes me smile. To go from Kakashi Gaiden to ultimate enemy is farcical even by Naruto standards. However, Tobi using Obito's eye is plausible and gives a small concession to the theorists.
> 
> ...



Well, first off, there are no plausible Tobi candidates that aren't Uchiha. Tobi being a new character would be a HUGE anti-climax. First of all, Tobi being Obito wouldn't really be boring and silly IMO. I mean, it would be awesome to see how someone like him came to be Tobi. It doesn't matter if the theory is popular and talked about. Whoever Kishi originally chose for tobi has stayed that person all along. Changing who Tobi is would be bad writing and would be the same as deciding to make Naruto Kiba. It doesn't mater if it's a fan favorite theory (That logic fails since most people hate it now, lol.) What matters is that it fits in the story. Why was Obito's sharingan two tomoed at activation? What happened to Rin? How did Kakashi get MS? All these questions could only be answered if Tobi is Obito. Plus, Obito was just like Naruto back in the day, so an evil obito would be Nauto's exact opposite and make a great final villain. Plus, it fits in perfectly with Kishi's villain archetype. Taking into consideration the points I've made above, and many others, it's really hard to imagine Tobi being anyone else but Obito.



jacamo said:


> what the hell happened to your objectivity?
> 
> Obito is possible but VERY unlikely... the amount of plotholes in that theory could sink a god damn ship, such as Tobi being too tall for a 16 year old, such as the generation gap being too large for Madara to know who Obito is
> 
> Kagami being a "small little fodder character" isnt a good enough reason for him not to be Tobi... timeline fits and there are ZERO plotholes



Lolololol! this cracked me up about the sinking boat, XD  Anyway, YES there is nothing to disprove this theory, but what matters is that it is bad for it to be Kagami, as it would be bad storytelling/writing. You need to consider both angles when making a theory. And, people grow at different rates, Kakashi and guy were taller than expected during Tobi's attack, and during gaiden, obito was taller than Kakashi. I see no reason as to why Obito couldn't have been that tall. Plus, we don't know when Madara died. Obito being too young to have met Madara is another assumption based on an uncomfirmed timeline. And about my objectivity, I just changed my mind and saw that there is no way Tobi is Kagami.



loool3 said:


> Meh, don't make me remembering you again too a 13-15 years Itachi which was even tall as a 20 years old Kisame, or Naruto which was tall as his dad.
> On top of that the Zetsu goo boosted his seize.



The first few points I agree with, but teh Zetsu goo boosting his size seems preposterous.



jacamo said:


> lol what? Itachi is actually 18 the first time we see him with Kisame at the start of the series... Naruto and Sasuke are 12
> 
> Obito's contemporaries, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma, Kurenai, were all much smaller in size... its not a big plothole, but its still a plothole
> 
> its not like thats the only plothole anyway



It's not a plothole as people grow at different rates.


----------



## McLover (May 20, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Lol, the same could be said for you. Kishi's not an idiot. He's not gonna make the FINAL VILLAIN adn the subject of ALL this mystery, just be a mere clone of the person we thought he was before. And, if Tobi looked just like Madara, why wear a mask. You need to take your own advice: "who cares what you need, not all naruto is written the way we want it to be.
> *Obito* ftw"
> 
> Ya know, it's a shame that people don't see how Obito is one of THE only logical choices for FV, if Kishi's intention is in fact to make Tobi THE EXACT opposite of Naruto, Obito would make the most sense. He fits so well from all these different angles, but I don't feel like explaining it all. (P.S. dude, stop double posting, you could get banned......)



sorry i dont know how to reply like you (click multi-quote?) 
and umm what does make sense to you doesn't for me, what makes sense to me doesnt for you. but umm did you come up with your theory on your own? cause for me, i personally came up with my conclusion before i know there were others who agree with me, i actually posted it on yahooanswers as a question to see how many ppl agreed..that's way before i started being active here. as for the tobito theory i actually found it first on a youtube video, and i was like "wtf?" when i found how many agree. i didn't support it from the beginning cause it was based on appearances, after that when tobi's other sharingan was revealed it just killed it cause they said: "he covers his left eye cause it's kakashi's" that was one of the main proof i found in the videos i watched. the timeline doesn't make sense to me either.
let's be real here, someone here said "we" thought tobi is madara but when madara was resurrected we said oh then it's a clown of him or a creation, but for you or those tobito supporters it went the same too, one of the proofs of 1 eye and other covered was also taken away when tobi's eyes were revealed, cause it was mostly based on appearances like i said, hair, 1 eye, ect. then the theory went in other direction probably was the elder son of the sot6p using obito's body cause of the scene of where tobi had a billion sharingans, so..
we all try to cling and stick to our theories which might all be wrong but we think they're right. one thing that weakens your theory for me is you all base it on too many "maybe", one who's so sure of it doesnt need so many "maybe"s but bases it on what information he has on the manga, not the quotes, the facts, which i used and came up with my conclusion, the sharingan evolutions, the timeline, the powers of rinnegan, yin and yang creations, they're all proven on manga and all make sense together (for me at least). but again nobody knows till its revealed. i just thought you were distracted off the main points on my and the other guys' posts supporting this theory or izuna's. im still curious and looking forward to read that kishi interview involving kakashi's year which i got no clue what that even is -.-' cant find it and no link given


----------



## Talis (May 20, 2012)

McLover said:


> sorry i dont know how to reply like you (click multi-quote?)
> and umm what does make sense to you doesn't for me, what makes sense to me doesnt for you. but umm did you come up with your theory on your own? cause for me, i personally came up with my conclusion before i know there were others who agree with me, i actually posted it on yahooanswers as a question to see how many ppl agreed..that's way before i started being active here. as for the tobito theory i actually found it first on a youtube video, and i was like "wtf?" when i found how many agree. i didn't support it from the beginning cause it was based on appearances, after that when tobi's other sharingan was revealed it just killed it cause they said: "he covers his left eye cause it's kakashi's" that was one of the main proof i found in the videos i watched. the timeline doesn't make sense to me either.
> let's be real here, someone here said "we" thought tobi is madara but when madara was resurrected we said oh then it's a clown of him or a creation, but for you or those tobito supporters it went the same too, one of the proofs of 1 eye and other covered was also taken away when tobi's eyes were revealed, cause it was mostly based on appearances like i said, hair, 1 eye, ect. then the theory went in other direction probably was the elder son of the sot6p using obito's body cause of the scene of where tobi had a billion sharingans, so..
> we all try to cling and stick to our theories which might all be wrong but we think they're right. one thing that weakens your theory for me is you all base it on too many "maybe", one who's so sure of it doesnt need so many "maybe"s but bases it on what information he has on the manga, not the quotes, the facts, which i used and came up with my conclusion, the sharingan evolutions, the timeline, the powers of rinnegan, yin and yang creations, they're all proven on manga and all make sense together (for me at least). but again nobody knows till its revealed. i just thought you were distracted off the main points on my and the other guys' posts supporting this theory or izuna's. im still curious and looking forward to read that kishi interview involving kakashi's year which i got no clue what that even is -.-' cant find it and no link given


lol, the most Tobito's around doesn't look deep enough in it.
I mean look at this panel; Izanagi.
When Tobi turns around his left ''blackened at Konan fight'' side has no wrinkles?
On top of that why is Tobi standing in front of a wall which has boulders on it rofl.
Kishi hinting to much? 
And thats just 1 panel got some more interesting to but to lazy atm.

Edit: About the Kakashis year it's true, Kishi makes every year special interviews about what will happen in the upcoming year, Kishi delayed the Kakashis year like 2-3x already, and he said that this year definately will happen.
Most because of Tobito is going to be revealed, you can find these interview easly by g**gling it.


----------



## Mantux31 (May 20, 2012)

I want Tobi to be some close friend of the main characters. Then it would be fun. Not some past villain or so


----------



## NW (May 20, 2012)

McLover said:


> sorry i dont know how to reply like you (click multi-quote?)
> and umm what does make sense to you doesn't for me, what makes sense to me doesnt for you. but umm did you come up with your theory on your own? cause for me, i personally came up with my conclusion before i know there were others who agree with me, i actually posted it on yahooanswers as a question to see how many ppl agreed..that's way before i started being active here. as for the tobito theory i actually found it first on a youtube video, and i was like "wtf?" when i found how many agree. i didn't support it from the beginning cause it was based on appearances, after that when tobi's other sharingan was revealed it just killed it cause they said: "he covers his left eye cause it's kakashi's" that was one of the main proof i found in the videos i watched. the timeline doesn't make sense to me either.
> let's be real here, someone here said "we" thought tobi is madara but when madara was resurrected we said oh then it's a clown of him or a creation, but for you or those tobito supporters it went the same too, one of the proofs of 1 eye and other covered was also taken away when tobi's eyes were revealed, cause it was mostly based on appearances like i said, hair, 1 eye, ect. then the theory went in other direction probably was the elder son of the sot6p using obito's body cause of the scene of where tobi had a billion sharingans, so..
> we all try to cling and stick to our theories which might all be wrong but we think they're right. one thing that weakens your theory for me is you all base it on too many "maybe", one who's so sure of it doesnt need so many "maybe"s but bases it on what information he has on the manga, not the quotes, the facts, which i used and came up with my conclusion, the sharingan evolutions, the timeline, the powers of rinnegan, yin and yang creations, they're all proven on manga and all make sense together (for me at least). but again nobody knows till its revealed. i just thought you were distracted off the main points on my and the other guys' posts supporting this theory or izuna's. im still curious and looking forward to read that kishi interview involving kakashi's year which i got no clue what that even is -.-' cant find it and no link given



Actually, the Tobito theory is based on more than just appearances and abilities. There are several quotes of Tobi that lead me to believe he's Obito. I'm to lazy to elaborate on them or any of the other types f points. But, you're right, everyone has a different theory and we won't know for sure until Tobi's identity is revealed. About multiquoting, just click the multiqote icon on each post you want to quote. Then when you get to the last post you want to quote, click multiquote on it and then press "quote". And, here's that link to the interview:

Sasuke attacks Kabuto, Kabuto counters it.


----------



## Shaz (May 20, 2012)

To be honest, this thread now has 16 pages and the last had 101. Yet we keep arguing and mocking one anothers theories. 
Why not respect the other persons view of the story, and be constructive, layout your own theory of each possible character which can be Tobi and then have them compared, and re-tell the story and find missing plotholes for each character, and whichever adds up has to be most likely Tobi. Though like I've always thought, I do think some of the characters which could be seen as Tobi are to throw us off, I'm sure Kishimoto is aware of the publicity of Tobi, and I'm sure he has covered up his tracks by laying down different possibilities.
To get closer to Tobi's identity, we need to think what Kishimoto would do, what he has always done, what has Tobi done by his actions, what his appearance reflects, his jutsu, his way of speaking, his relationship with others, and possibility of other characters which may have known him and how, and which other characters can get involved due to his identity.

I find the current possibilities based off some facts found from fans are:

- Izuna
- Obito
- Elder Son

These are really the only three which have some sort of story which could fit with Tobi's identity, alongside some Zetsu-like substance or itself. 

We should really focus on these three first, build the theories with every little detail which Tobi has shown by his actions and speech and match all motives for each of these candidates which could be Tobi. Once we've completed the profile for each of them in the best detail possible, work on others. I'm sure we all can't remember all the details, some remember one part and another person other parts, we should combine our memories to be honest.

We should really narrow down our search by facts and not by "how their hair matches" or "age", because at the moment, we're walking in pointless circles.

_Two minds are better than one._


----------



## NW (May 20, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> To be honest, this thread now has 16 pages and the last had 101. Yet we keep arguing and mocking one anothers theories.
> Why not respect the other persons view of the story, and be constructive, layout your own theory of each possible character which can be Tobi and then have them compared, and re-tell the story and find missing plotholes for each character, and whichever adds up has to be most likely Tobi. Though like I've always thought, I do think some of the characters which could be seen as Tobi are to throw us off, I'm sure Kishimoto is aware of the publicity of Tobi, and I'm sure he has covered up his tracks by laying down different possibilities.
> To get closer to Tobi's identity, we need to think what Kishimoto would do, what he has always done, what has Tobi done by his actions, what his appearance reflects, his jutsu, his way of speaking, his relationship with others, and possibility of other characters which may have known him and how, and which other characters can get involved due to his identity.
> 
> ...



Outstanding post, man! You are absolutely right. Obito, Izuna, and the Uchiha Clan Ancestor, are also the only ones I think Tobi could be.

Personally though, I think that Obito is the best fit. He was introduced before Tobi. The appearance matches. It definitely seems to be the "Kishiest" Tobi identity. His space time jutsu matches what obito's mangekyo would most likely have if he were to survive. Whenever a masked man's identity is revealed, a person who recognizes him needs to be there for his revealing moment. Kakashi is currently helping Naruto fight tobi. The pieces are all set IMO. Kishi has played this game like a genius and now it's time for "Check mate".

That's just my take, though. You definitely have laid out the best possible way to find a close estimate for Tobi's identity.


----------



## Shaz (May 20, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> His space time jutsu matches what obito's mangekyo would most likely have if he were to survive.




That reminds me, if you have ever noticed Kakashi's Kamui (Space-time Ninjutsu) you can see it seems a little bit like Tobi's though it doesn't completely transfer one to another dimension but just rips their limbs out and transfers them to another dimension, what if it's like Tobi's but just isn't complete because Kakashi can't manage it as he's not an Uchiha, so what if Obito was suppose to have the same MS as Kakashi, but as Kakashi isn't an Uchiha he couldn't perfect the Space-time jutsu as Tobi has right now, which tells us that Tobi and Obito could possibly have a skill in common, though Obito could just be a vessel, alongside Zetsu. 

So Obito as a vessel could be a possibility based on skillsets/jutsu speculation.

Izuna could be a possibility based on motive, as though Tobi has said Izuna did give his eyes to Madara willingly (When he said that I do believe he clenched his fist) but Itachi implied Madara took Izuna's eyes by force, which can tell us Izuna is Tobi, and has been overshadowed by Madara, and he knows by taking Madara's identity, he would be feared, so he lied about being Madara, which can explain why it is implied Tobi betrays Madara and doesn't ressurect Madara as planned, but instead impersonates him. 

About the Elder son, it could also be based on motive and revenge to gain the body of Rikudou and awake the Juubi, though now, I don't really believe in this theory honestly anymore. The two above are more relative, however we must keep this as a possibility. 

And lastly if he is not an Uchiha, who is he? Who else could Madara know, which was suppose to be in a partnership with him, to ressurect him for the Mooneye plan, who could have motive to betray Madara and take over his identity as an advantage to complete the plan?


----------



## NW (May 20, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> That reminds me, if you have ever noticed Kakashi's Kamui (Space-time Ninjutsu) you can see it seems a little bit like Tobi's though it doesn't completely transfer one to another dimension but just rips their limbs out and transfers them to another dimension, what if it's like Tobi's but just isn't complete because Kakashi can't manage it as he's not an Uchiha, so what if Obito was suppose to have the same MS as Kakashi, but as Kakashi isn't an Uchiha he couldn't perfect the Space-time jutsu as Tobi has right now, which tells us that Tobi and Obito could possibly have a skill in common, though Obito could just be a vessel, alongside Zetsu.
> 
> So Obito as a vessel could be a possibility based on skillsets/jutsu speculation.
> 
> ...



Possibly. Although, I feel that it's most likely Obito's soul as well. it just works well, due to the parallel between him and Naruto. And, someone said, (I think it was either Itachi or Tobi) that the Uchiha clan is a clan destined for hatred. So, you could say, that in a sense, Obito was destined to become Tobi. It being Obito's soul as well, would also throw Kakashi through even more turmoil and mental trauma.

Although, i do kind of see the possibility of Izuna possessing Obito's body. If you look, there are many similarities between Obito and Izuna. Obito has the same blood type as Izuna, and they also have the same birthday. I just find it kind of odd. Although, this might not mean that Izuna is possessing him. It could mean that Obito is related to Izuna in some way, he could possibly be his reincarnation. Now, why do i say this? If you look at Tobi, him and Izuna have the EXACT same weight Tobi is only 0.2 centimeters taller than Izuna. If Tobi is Obito, then the height and weight are even further proof of the similarities between them. I think that this is really far fetched, though. But, whatever the case, I'm sure that Obito and Izuna are SOMEHOW related. 

Also, about the Elder Son, he seems like a possibility, but not a particularly strong one.


----------



## Shaz (May 20, 2012)

*In my opinion* I don't think Obito is alive, if he is at all Tobi; it has to just be his mangled body which was used because it was young, with addition of Zetsu implants, though Izuna could be involved in the vessel as well. 
This way Kakashi will recognize Obito's face, but not by his actions or speech, and will become confused, and it may be one of the first times we see Kakashi let such emotions cloud him so heavily.


----------



## Easley (May 20, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Well, first off, there are no plausible Tobi candidates that aren't Uchiha. Tobi being a new character would be a HUGE anti-climax.


An anti-climax is inevitable because Kishi has waited too damn long to show Tobi's face. Almost nothing he does now will surprise people. Every theory has been debated to death. It's actually become tedious and he should stop milking it. At this rate I expect the mask to come off in time for Christmas next year... if we're lucky. Hard to believe that it's 5 years since Tobi claimed to be Madara. Chapter 364, I remember it vividly.



> It doesn't matter if the theory is popular and talked about. Whoever Kishi originally chose for tobi has stayed that person all along. Changing who Tobi is would be bad writing and would be the same as deciding to make Naruto Kiba. It doesn't mater if it's a fan favorite theory (That logic fails since most people hate it now, lol.) What matters is that it fits in the story.



Normally I'd agree, but Kishi might have a hard time convincing anyone that he originally chose Obito. Tobito theories are all over the place, in every variation imaginable. Whatever he writes he's gonna repeat what someone else has already done. I think he would be wise to steer clear of Tobito. He's disappointing one group of people either way.



> Why was Obito's sharingan two tomoed at activation? What happened to Rin? How did Kakashi get MS? All these questions could only be answered if Tobi is Obito. Plus, Obito was just like Naruto back in the day, so an evil obito would be Nauto's exact opposite and make a great final villain. Plus, it fits in perfectly with Kishi's villain archetype. Taking into consideration the points I've made above, and many others, it's really hard to imagine Tobi being anyone else but Obito.


Those questions can be answered in several ways, without Tobi being Obito. Kakashi may just reveal how he attained MS and what exactly happened to Rin, in a flashback or something. At the same time give an explanation for Obito's sharingan. Kishi can make anything work. How he chooses to relay this information is up to him - or not answer them at all. I expect a few loose ends.

As for evil Obito, I'm sorry, I just can't see that. The masked guy who invaded Konoha had abilities that go beyond almost every Uchiha, not just Obito. There's a reason why Minato suspected he was Madara: "There's only one man I can think of that makes sense". Then he proceeds to summon and control Kyuubi, something that Jiraiya said only Madara has done. Obito might be comparable if Madara taught him these jutsu, but that seems unlikely given the timeline.


----------



## Talis (May 20, 2012)

Easley said:


> Those questions can be answered in several ways, without Tobi being Obito. Kakashi may just reveal how he attained MS and what exactly happened to Rin, in a flashback or something. At the same time give an explanation for Obito's sharingan. Kishi can make anything work. How he chooses to relay this information is up to him - or not answer them at all. I expect a few loose ends.


At a time when Kakashi is fighting against Tobi?
Kishi said that Kakashis year is going to happen for sure this year.
So if you expect such thing to happen it will happen in front of Tobi.


----------



## Easley (May 20, 2012)

loool3 said:


> At a time when Kakashi is fighting against Obito?
> Kishi said that Kakashis year is going to happen for sure this year.
> So if you expect such thing to happen it will happen in front of Tobi.


Kakashi's year could mean anything, I don't think Obito is required for him to have some decent panel time. Flashbacks can accomplish a lot though and give "dead" characters some closure.

Kakashi is fighting Tobi right now, and like all their previous encounters I don't get the impression that he's Obito at all. He talks to him like everyone else, as if they're children.

Any revelation involving Kakashi should happen after this fight. I see it more Naruto vs Tobi, they're the ones butting heads. Kakashi should wait his turn.


----------



## Mateush (May 20, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> - Izuna
> - Obito
> - Elder Son
> 
> These are really the only three which have some sort of story which could fit with Tobi's identity, alongside some Zetsu-like substance or itself.




Lmao. You are ignoring Madara? Why the hell is Elder Son or Obito there, but not Madara???


----------



## NW (May 20, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Lmao. You are ignoring Madara? Why the hell is Elder Son or Obito there, but not Madara???


2


----------



## Mateush (May 20, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> 2


----------



## NW (May 20, 2012)

2
2


----------



## Shaz (May 20, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Lmao. You are ignoring Madara? Why the hell is Elder Son or Obito there, but not Madara???




Have you not got the idea that Madara has some sort of relation to Tobi? I'm sure Madara gave Tobi these cells, just that Tobi decided to betray him and not ressurect him using the Rinnegan, and now Madara is the walking dead with Edo Tensei.

How is it going to be Madara if Madara is an Edo Tensei, you might argue he's a clone, but why is he hiding his face, and if he was a clone I doubt he'd betray the real Madara, as from what the implications of Tobi's  actions have told us.

Tobi is just someone who was around/created or whatever depending on your seperate theories when Madara was alive, or just about to die, and I believe Tobi's only job was to ressurect Madara and to collect Bijuu for him for the Moonseye plan, but Tobi decided to ditch Madara once he got power, and took over the plan. What I do believe is that once Madara got Hashirama's cells, he created Zetsu, he then implanted Zetsu into Tobi, and I believe Tobi also has a third eye, like Zetsu's, which records information as seen in Itachi's battle with Sasuke (The three tomoes on his new mask also hint this, as two tomoe slots on his mask are for his Sharingan and Rinnegan, perhaps the third is Zetsu's recording eye?).

EDIT: And now he wraps a bandage around his head to hide his eye (As in my signature), because he didn't want Madara to find out that he betrayed him, and what Tobi has done so far.


----------



## Talis (May 20, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Lmao. You are ignoring Madara? Why the hell is Elder Son or Obito there, but not Madara???


It's either someone Izanami'd by Madara/ Kotoamatsuakmi'd by Madara, it can't be a Madara clone nr 2343434, it simply doesn't fit in the ''common'' masked mans identity.
On top of that if there was such thing then Orochimaru should have managed that since he was the real doctor Frankenstein type.
I bet you Madara stole the Dna's and somehow managed to live until Orochimaru's days, he then pop ups to controle Yagura (with a bandage on his legs and chest which had a sword cut through from Hashirama), after that Orochimaru was the one to merge Madara with the Hashirama Dna.
After this Orochimaru started getting interested in the Uchiha's, don't forget Tobi's comment about ''damn you Orochimaru, how much did you know about what i was doing'' Tobi pretty much talked in Madara's perspective and he was wondering what the relation was between them.
Where else did Orochimaru get the Dna of Hashirama in his hands?
Simple by Madara himself which somehow manipulated Tobi after his death.


----------



## Talis (May 20, 2012)

^I actually believe that Tobito wouldn't have full access to the ''M''Sharingan because he lost a lot of his Uchiha blood after the rock.


----------



## NW (May 20, 2012)

I am 95% sure that Tobi is Obito. I mean, there's so much symbolism in it. Obito was a student of Naruto's father, Minato Namikaze. Already that would relate him to Naruto. Also, Kishi has a certain archetype that he uses for his main villains. All the main villains in the manga were originally on a team paralleling team 7, and something happened that made them go batshit crazy. And are usually responsible for the death of their master. Obito was on a team paralleling Team 7. Tobi was, in a way, responsible for Minato's death. Remember:

Orochimaru=Team parallel team 7=Orochimaru went evil and killed Sarutobi

Nagato=Team paralleling team 7=Nagato went evil and killed Jiraiya

Sasuke=On the ACTUAL team 7=Went evil but hasn't killed Kakashi(Yet)

So, my prediction: Obito=Team Paralleling team 7= Went evil and killed Minato


Also, an element that three of these share is friends turning against each other.

Sasuke Vs. Naruto

Orochimaru Vs. Jiraiya 

Obito Vs. Kakashi


And, I think I'll bring this up again. About 89% of this manga is based off of Japanese mythology, showing that Kishi likes to incorporate such things into his manga. Here's a VERY interesting piece of information that I found on another site:

"--------------Mythology in Japan----------------- 
First I'll present an overview of what some of you may know, as we will need it for further investigation, I'll keep it short, so bear with me: 

Notes on Izanagi: As you know, the God(Kami) Izanagi created the three gods Amaterasu(Sun God), Susanoo(Fighting God) and Tsukoyomi (Moon God) by wiping dirt from his eye's and nose, which he got when traveling in the underworld yomi and witnessing its horror (Lost his wife). 

Manga relevance: Izanagi created those three gods while experiencing something terrible, which correlates to Mangekyo sharingan activating when experiencing something horrible. 
With MS you will then be able to use these three abilities. 

Rinnegan: Rinnegan obviously comes from the term Rinne, which revolves the 6 forms of death and rebirth, the worlds constant struggle continues struggling with no escape but one: Enlightment! 
You may only escape this terrifying struggle by finally understanding the world and all 6 paths, you will finally find absolute peace. 
Which is called Nehan. So will we see some Nehan action in in the ending for this manga? Maybe. 

Notes on Kamui: Kakashi has shown no ability to use these three techniques, but the ability Kamui, which relates to the term "god" itself. 
Why? Possible answers are that he isn't an Uchiha or because he didn't get MS through horrible means, or something else entirely. 

Notes on Tobi:He has not shown the ability to use Amaterasu and Co. Which means he hasn't got MS, but then how is he gonna accomplish the Moon's Eye Plan without Tsukuyomi? His reason for Sasuke? 
Or does he have MS, but only the ability Kamui like Kakashi? Why? Is he not an Uchiha either or is there perhaps another reason? 

Why do i tell you this? Because by examining old myths and symbols, we might predict the outcome of the manga or identities. 
Did you know of the myth of the 8 headed snake Orochi that got killed by Susanoo? Or the myth of Jiraiya the toad hermit that was in love with Tsunade the slug princess?etc. 


Now the interesting part: 
In japanese prehistory there are a lot of myths and symbols, and i present one in particular. 

Symbol behind one open, one closed eye: 
Ancient figures are often depicted with a right eye open and a left one closed, it means "change", light and darkness, as the open eye means full moon and the closed eye means new moon. 
The lunar cycle was the only long term means of observing time.So characters that have one eye symbolize change and time, darkness and light. 
(Remember Kamui, space/time jutsu) 

There are several Japanese figures with two faces pointing away from each other, one side depicting a right eye open, a left wounded eye with a diagonal cut, sometimes crying. 
The other face either has no real face depicted with eyes at all, or simply a close left eye. 
These one open, one closed eye figures all show spirals on the sides of their heads or on other body parts. 

Now, i don't think i must point out the resemblance to Kakashi and his left vertical wounded eye, and to Tobi's spiral mask. 
Tobi originally only showed one eye, of course this was intended symbolism of the Moon and in my opinion, the "change" in Obito. What was very interesting, was Tobi using Izanagi with his left eye, closing it forever. 
Also the fact that they both show Space/time abilities, while both having one eye showing, is an amazing coincidence. 

When remembering the MS ability Kamui, they might indeed share another plain of MS power than Madara, Itachi and Sasuke. A form of special MS, only achieved through shared grieve and by sharing the sharingan. Not by killing your best friend, but by something else. 
Source: 
---- 
Japanese prehistory: The material and spiritual culture of the Jomon period. 
written by Nelly Naumann."

Now, i'd like to see people deny something like that.

While I'm at it, someone give me 10 reasons why Tobi couldn't be Obito and I'll refute them all.


----------



## jacamo (May 20, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Lolololol! this cracked me up about the sinking boat, XD  Anyway, YES there is nothing to disprove this theory, but what matters is that it is bad for it to be Kagami, as it would be bad storytelling/writing. You need to consider both angles when making a theory. And, people grow at different rates, Kakashi and guy were taller than expected during Tobi's attack, and during gaiden, obito was taller than Kakashi. I see no reason as to why Obito couldn't have been that tall. Plus, we don't know when Madara died. Obito being too young to have met Madara is another assumption based on an uncomfirmed timeline. And about my objectivity, I just changed my mind and saw that there is no way Tobi is Kagami.



well, i dont consider a Kagami reveal to be bad writing, Kishi has laid down the groundwork seeing as we have known of Kagami since Danzo died... but i understand why other people would consider it bad writing

anyway, about Obito

there is no way i can believe Obito grew into an adult in 1 year when Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai were all shown to be much shorter

other plotholes:

there is no way i can believe Obito's character would turn evil in 1 year

there is no way i can believe Minato wouldnt recognise his own student... if Tobi was really Obito Minato would have figured it out

there is no way i can believe Obito suddenly turned into this alpha dog shinobi that became a S/T teleportation master and knew EXACTLY how to summon the Kyuubi out of Kushina... *theres just no way*

"do you have any idea how long ive waited for this moment?" implies Tobi has waited for years/decades for that moment... Obito was too young

remember when Tobi said he saw the first Hokage in Naruto? Obito cant make a statement like that considering Hashirama was dead before Obito was even born... Kagami on the other hand actually belongs in that timeline

then theres Tobi's vast knowledge about everything Rikudou related



omg hadnt realised i typed so much :amazed


----------



## Shaz (May 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> there is no way i can believe Obito grew into an adult in 1 year when Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai were all shown to be much shorter



What if there were actually two masked men? The one who fought Minato was the actual, yet fatigued Madara, but the one you see today was a creation of Madara using Zetsu and a vessel? Possibly Obito or Izuna.



jacamo said:


> there is no way i can believe Obito's character would turn evil in 1 year



Who says it is Obito's personality, perhaps he is just being used as a vessel as Orichimaru wanted to use Sasuke?



jacamo said:


> there is no way i can believe Minato wouldnt recognise his own student... if Tobi was really Obito Minato would have figured it out



Going back to my first counter, perhaps that was the actual Madara? Then later he may of used Obito's body as a vessel, as he saw it would be strong as Obito was after all a student of Yondaime.



jacamo said:


> there is no way i can believe Obito suddenly turned into this alpha dog shinobi that became a S/T teleportation master and knew EXACTLY how to summon the Kyuubi out of Kushina... *theres just no way*



Again, could've been the real Madara during that attack. (Notice long hair, exactly like Madara)




jacamo said:


> "do you have any idea how long ive waited for this moment?" implies Tobi has waited for years/decades for that moment... Obito was too young



Again, could be Madara during that time when he fought Minato. 



jacamo said:


> remember when Tobi said he saw the first Hokage in Naruto? Obito cant make a statement like that considering Hashirama was dead before Obito was even born... Kagami on the other hand actually belongs in that timeline



I have had suspicion that it is Izuna, and it could be possible after being injured in battle and secretly using Obito's body then as a vessel, that would explain that he saw Hashirama. 



jacamo said:


> then theres Tobi's vast knowledge about everything Rikudou related



We all know that Tobi could possibly have a Zetsu implant, and then we should also know that Zetsu can record events, which could tell us why Tobi knows so much, as well as going to my previous point that it could be Izuna.

Lastly, this could be a good theory to build on:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6mjoalKCoI&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## McLover (May 20, 2012)

loool3 said:


> lol, the most Tobito's around doesn't look deep enough in it.
> I mean look at this panel; his battle experience paled compared to hers.
> When Tobi turns around his left ''blackened at Konan fight'' side has no wrinkles?
> On top of that why is Tobi standing in front of a wall which has boulders on it rofl.
> ...



i see no wrinkles, plus there are many mistakes and unclear drawings in the manga so you can't take this very lil thing as a proof.
give me another kishi hint ?? or hints are only about tobi's identity?
boulders? common in a cave hidehout? tho it doesnt look like boulders to me it looks much more like zetsu clay mass 



TobiUchiha111 said:


> Actually, the Tobito theory is based on more than just appearances and abilities. There are several quotes of Tobi that lead me to believe he's Obito. I'm to lazy to elaborate on them or any of the other types f points. But, you're right, everyone has a different theory and we won't know for sure until Tobi's identity is revealed. About multiquoting, just click the multiqote icon on each post you want to quote. Then when you get to the last post you want to quote, click multiquote on it and then press "quote". And, here's that link to the interview:
> 
> LikeNaruto



thanks bro  i'll read it asap



loool3 said:


> ^I actually believe that Tobito wouldn't have full access to the ''M''Sharingan because he lost a lot of his Uchiha blood after the rock.



please tell me that's a mere joke !!


----------



## jacamo (May 20, 2012)

are you kidding me MissingNin? "could have been the real Madara?" 

that doesnt counter the *multitude* of plotholes i just listed, at all


----------



## Talis (May 20, 2012)

McLover said:


> *i see no wrinkles*, plus there are many mistakes and unclear drawings in the manga so you can't take this very lil thing as a proof.
> give me another kishi hint ?? or hints are only about tobi's identity?
> boulders? common in a cave hidehout? tho it doesnt look like boulders to me it looks much more like zetsu clay mass
> 
> ...


Thats exactly the point if Tobi is Obito then he should have 50% messed up face of that rock while the other one should be safe.
Then why theres no boulders behind Zetsu?
That panel simply hints to Obito.
Same thing here one face is wrinkled while the other one ain't Link removed very small detail too actually.
Anyways if you believe that Obito's head was crushed it wasn't: Link removed

Link removed

Theres like 3 panels of these, the rock is clearly standing on Obito's head, it didn't crush his head as you can see while his lowered body part clearly did.
On top of that Kishi is obviously hiding something on the right side of the rock he keeps showing us 50% of the boulder and the left side of it.
I believe 1 of Obito's surviving keys lays ''off paneled'' on the right side which Kishi doesn't want to show us. (yet)



McLover said:


> please tell me that's a mere joke !!


lol you take that as a joke while you believe Tobi being Madara while edo Madara is walking around?
Some guts you got there to say such thing.


----------



## Shaz (May 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> are you kidding me MissingNin? "could have been the real Madara?"
> 
> that doesnt counter the *multitude* of plotholes i just listed, at all




Why couldn't it be? And what plot holes, you've just listed things about experience mainly, which can easily be overcome, because your thinking of Tobi as Obito in body and mind, however Tobi could be the vessel of Obito, being Obito is not alive, and it is only his body being used.


----------



## Talis (May 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> well, i dont consider a Kagami reveal to be bad writing, Kishi has laid down the groundwork seeing as we have known of Kagami since Danzo died... but i understand why other people would consider it bad writing
> 
> anyway, about Obito
> 
> ...


And thats exactly why masked characters turns into someone which you would expect very least. 

Kishi already spoiled Tobito since the very beginning with the appearence the one eye holed orange mask and his name.
Just cling on it, it's obvious that Kishi tries everything to make us wonder about who Tobi really is but theres no reason to fall in that trap lol.


----------



## Shaz (May 20, 2012)

Maybe we should just go interrogate Kishi


----------



## NW (May 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> well, i dont consider a Kagami reveal to be bad writing, Kishi has laid down the groundwork seeing as we have known of Kagami since Danzo died... but i understand why other people would consider it bad writing
> 
> anyway, about Obito
> 
> ...


Okay, I guess I can understand that. It would explain why Kishi decided to make the last member on Danzo's team an Uchiha instead of any other clan member. I guess I'll consider it a possibility....
Now, about Obito:

1. I already explained that obito could've been that tall.

2. Nagato was a a ind crybaby like Obito, and just look at him now. (Or at least a hundred or so chapters ago, lol)

3. He was wearing a mas, his voice had matured, and he was thought to be dead. Plus, why would Minato suspect his own student?

4. The space-time ninjutsu mastery could be explained because it comes from his OWN mangekyo sharingan, so naturally, he'd be adept at using it. He had all that was needed to control Kurama, Uchiha and Senju DNA.

5. That could be explained as him acting as Madara. Naruto was desperate at the beginning to prove that he was someone other than just a nine tailed demon fox. Whereas Obito was basically a "No One". the girl he loved and gave his birthright to protect fell in love with someone else, and she got killed as well. No one ever bothered(in his mind) to try to retrieve his body. Being Madara was all he and left. With that name, he had the power to start a war, make people fear him, and accomplish all of his goals. Naruto and Tobi are exact opposites, Naruto wanted to prove that he was his own person and not just a demon fox. He succeeded. Whereas Tobi wanted desperately to NOT be himself and be Madara. HE failed. So, in the end, tobi is still just a "No One" in his mind. (Geez, didn't intend for it to go on for that ong....)

6. This is actually a pretty good point. Although, Zetsu can record things, so he could have recorded Hashirama and other such things.

7. He could have read the stone tablet.





MissinqNin said:


> Again, could've been the real Madara during that attack. (Notice long hair, exactly like Madara)



There's no way that was the real madara. First of all, why would Madara have the sam badass Space-Time powers as Tobi? If he did, don't you think he'd be whippin' that shit out against the Kages right about now? Also, what do you mean, "long hair, exactly like Madara"? He had short hair, like he does now. here, I'll show you proof:
his battle experience paled compared to hers.

Five years later, though, he had long hair, just like Madara: his battle experience paled compared to hers.
his battle experience paled compared to hers.

That could possibly have been the real Madara cuz he had a sword, just like Madara.


----------



## Talis (May 20, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Okay, I guess I can understand that. It would explain why Kishi decided to make the last member on Danzo's team an Uchiha instead of any other clan member. I guess I'll consider it a possibility....
> Now, about Obito:
> 
> 1. I already explained that obito could've been that tall.
> ...


Now that i am paying attention to the last link, i bet you that the guy in front of Itachi didn't even wore a mask= real Madara obviously.


----------



## McLover (May 20, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Thats exactly the point if Tobi is Obito then he should have 50% messed up face of that rock while the other one should be safe.
> Then why theres no boulders behind Zetsu?
> That panel simply hints to Obito.
> Same thing here one face is wrinkled while the other one ain't his battle experience paled compared to hers. very small detail too actually.
> ...



oh please
> his battle experience paled compared to hers.
the other side was crushed as well right exactly where the clean part of tobi's face you're showing in that picture is
 i meant there's no wrinkles in either left right or middle whichsohowwhere ever you are looking!!
 i dont see anything in that color pic of tobi's new mask, except his sharingan and rinnegan are you F/ing serious?
and all i see in the pic of the walls' boulders is like i said, a zetsu clay  surrounded by whatever you call these zetsu leaves thingies > 
and yes zetsu's black and white just like yin and yang 2 black and white halves, with leaves thingies from the moktun sells and he was created using rinnegan probably madara did that
losing blood makes u lose the uchiha abilities is, with my oppologies, the most ridiculous thing i ever read in the forum so far! just because you lose blood doesn't change who you are and changes your dna completely, are you serious? i still hope you were being ironic and jokin around. srsly...
edit: you still didn't give me an example of a hint kishi gave to something other than tobi's identity
edit 2: i'll ironically give you another positive hint for your ridiculous theory  , i never seen it anywhere else in this manner> his battle experience paled compared to hers.
you do recognize these phrases no? 
however that, imo, doesn't explain how tobi a.k.a obito would behave the way he behaves which is completely the contrary of what he said (unless you mean it's only his flesh being used, in that case i suggest you start saying obito's body/corpse lol)


----------



## jacamo (May 20, 2012)

if its just Obito's body then its not really Obito MissingNin

but the plotholes are still there... and there are alot of them

let me finish the Heat game first


----------



## Shaz (May 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> if its just Obito's body then its not really Obito MissingNin
> 
> but the plotholes are still there... and there are alot of them
> 
> let me finish the Heat game first




It is still Obito's body though, and will come as a shock to Kakashi which may lead to Flashbacks and give us "Kakashi's year".

The person using the Vessel could be Izuna, with Zetsu implants to repair Obito's body.


----------



## Talis (May 20, 2012)

McLover said:


> oh please
> > his battle experience paled compared to hers.
> the other side was crushed as well right exactly where the clean part of tobi's face you're showing in that picture is
> i meant there's no wrinkles in either left right or middle whichsohowwhere ever you are looking!!
> ...


lol at the first link, if you take a look at it and think for a moment you should realise that that face side should stay clearly safe since they were standing there as a shield, if another boulder fell of there they would fall on the rocks self not on that face part as you see. 
Why u mad?
Did you already forget that it takes Kakashi shit much chakra to use the Sharingan, did you ever see a non Uchiha character awakening the Sharingan?

And you realise a non Uchiha can't awaken the Sharingan without the Sharingan blood? 
So let stay the MS abilities. 

Oh did i also told you that Tobi used the same hiding in the ground technique as Kakashi when he was fighting against Torune and Fu?
Did i also told you that while Kakashi was sitting on Gai's back Deidara was sitting on ''Tobito's back? 

And the most ridiculous thing i ever saw is your Tobi is a Madara clone theory.
Edo Madara is trolling the Kages around while some old Tobidara supporters are still trolling the forums around.


----------



## NW (May 20, 2012)

I am actually really starting to think that the long haired masked man is the real Madara. The long haired masked man had a sword when he met Itachi. 
his battle experience paled compared to hers.

Tobi in current timed has never been seen with a sword, instead he relies on his space-time powers, suggesting that he never would have needed a sword. And, we know from chapter 560 that Madara is extremely skilled with a sword, suggesting that he owned one:his battle experience paled compared to hers.

Also, The long haired masked man when he met Itachi, is wearing the exact same clothes he was when he manipulated Yagura: his battle experience paled compared to hers.

Now, naturally people will probably say, "but Kisame recognized Tobi as the same person who manipulated Yagura." I think that maybe Kisame met Tobi somewhere along the lines and saw that he was acting as Madara. This would explain why he referred to Tobi as Madara. Also, Madara being alive until recently is support for Tobi being Obito. If the long haired man is in fact Madara, then the argument that Obito never could have met Madara, is completely gone.


----------



## McLover (May 20, 2012)

loool3 said:


> lol at the first link, if you take a look at it and think for a moment you should realise that that face side should stay clearly safe since they were standing there as a shield, if another boulder fell of there they would fall on the rocks self not on that face part as you see.
> Why u mad?
> Did you already forget that it takes Kakashi shit much chakra to use the Sharingan, did you ever see a non Uchiha character awakening the Sharingan?
> 
> ...



edit: read the edit on my last post 
it seems to me that that part, including the body, got crushed too.
ye so how did kakashi awaken his ms and didn't tobi (oh cause the loss of the blood? baloney!)
the ms abilities lol yes what about them? they are similar, itachi sasuke and madara all use susano', and itachi would probably been able to use izanagi if he had senju's dna, and how come btw tobi didn't awaken his rinnegan, danzou didn't witch apparantly a non-uchiha cant awaken a rinnegan even if the had sharingans and senju's dna so idk for kakashi but u dont know either!

was it also ridiculous to you the rikudo using his rinnegan's yin and yang power creating the 9 bijuu's using the chakra of the jyuubi ? NOT. oh and each bijuu has his personality and emotions and tone and ect ect, wasn't that ridiculous?
how come then it's ridiculous madara using the same power creating tobi or zetsu? just cause it neglects your theory you dont want to accept or even discuss it at all 




TobiUchiha111 said:


> I am actually really starting to think that the long haired masked man is the real Madara. The long haired masked man had a sword when he met Itachi.
> his battle experience paled compared to hers.
> 
> Tobi in current timed has never been seen with a sword, instead he relies on his space-time powers, suggesting that he never would have needed a sword. And, we know from chapter 560 that Madara is extremely skilled with a sword, suggesting that he owned one:his battle experience paled compared to hers.
> ...



i totally agree, not after "Now,..." he called tobi "fouth mizukage..i mean madara" cause it's the same person a.k.a clown? 
and yes madara was alive when he met itachi whilst tobi fought minato around 6-7 years before that, they even use the same mask ^^ so if u agree that they actually were together, how come you think there wasn't a plan between the 2 to revive madara? why didn't madara collect someone else's uchiha corpse instead of a half crushed kid? why did madara need tobi to begin with when he already had nagato under his orders and on hold of his rinnegan too?


----------



## Talis (May 20, 2012)

McLover said:


> edit: read the edit on my last post
> it seems to me that that part, including the body, got crushed too.
> ye so how did kakashi awaken his ms and didn't tobi (oh cause the loss of the blood? baloney!)
> the ms abilities lol yes what about them? they are similar, itachi sasuke and madara all use susano', and itachi would probably been able to use izanagi if he had senju's dna, and how come btw tobi didn't awaken his rinnegan, danzou didn't witch apparantly a non-uchiha cant awaken a rinnegan even if the had sharingans and senju's dna so idk for kakashi but u dont know either!
> ...


Haha simple because it's Tobito related, or else Kishi had it revealed already a few years ago.

And obviously Kisame just reffered in a cocky way Tobi as Madara since the real Madara told his plan about Tobi taking his role to Kisame.
Kisame didn't cut the flashbacks off to prevent us seeing the real Madara's face but he did that too avoid Madara's plan being revealed around which was Tobi taking Madara's role over.


----------



## Talis (May 20, 2012)

McLover said:


> oh please
> > his battle experience paled compared to hers.
> the other side was crushed as well right exactly where the clean part of tobi's face you're showing in that picture is
> i meant there's no wrinkles in either left right or middle whichsohowwhere ever you are looking!!
> ...


 So much facepalms in this post lol.
Orochimaru, Itachi, Sasuke, Neji, Nagato, Gaara, and probably another 1000 characters they all changed their personalities.
I suggest you to think before posting something.


----------



## McLover (May 20, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Haha simple because it's Tobito related, or else Kishi had it revealed already a few years ago.
> 
> And obviously Kisame just reffered in a cocky way Tobi as Madara since the real Madara told his plan about Tobi taking his role to Kisame.
> Kisame didn't cut the flashbacks off to prevent us seeing the real Madara's face but he did that too avoid Madara's plan being revealed around which was Tobi taking Madara's role over.



im not arguing about tobi not taking over madara's role cause he did, but that (taking over) was NOT madara's plan as we,or I..to speak for myself, know he wanted to be resurrected and expected it. my argue now is about what u just said that is why would kisame be surprised by tobi's face if he already knows who he is? and why would he call him "fourth mizukag i mean madara" if the fourth mizukage was in fact that kid under madara's control? why call him that if it's obito's face and how come he recognizes him to begin with?



loool3 said:


> So much facepalms in this post lol.
> Orochimaru, Itachi, Sasuke, Neji, Nagato, Gaara, and probably another 1000 characters they all changed their personalities.
> I suggest you to think before posting something.



only gaara and nagato changed, to the good site from the "evil" side, non of the others changed or has a connection to my point, that's not called a "discussion" its called neglecting my points by any means ^^
orochimaru when did he change? sasuke was an avenger since the beginning including his friendship with naruto it all was planned so that he could kill his best friend to awaken his mangekyou sharingan to get the same eyes as itachi before him and fight him, neji only changed his view about that there's no such as destiny if ppl work hard they can get there he didnt get brainwashed at all


----------



## Talis (May 20, 2012)

McLover said:


> im not arguing about tobi not taking over madara's role cause he did, but that (taking over) was NOT madara's plan as we,or I..to speak for myself, know he wanted to be resurrected and expected it. my argue now is about what u just said that is why would kisame be surprised by tobi's face if he already knows who he is? and why would he call him "fourth mizukag i mean madara" if the fourth mizukage was in fact that kid under madara's control? why call him that if it's obito's face and how come he recognizes him to begin with?


Madara probably explained Kisame the way Tobi looked like which made him reffer ''so your that guy, Madara's imposter'', or in the worst case Madara was not only controling Yagura but Tobi as well which might have been next to him, if Kishi did reveal Tobi's silouet there then it would have been 1 strike confirming that Tobi is someone being controled by Madara.
But of course such thing can't be revealed until edo Madara pops out.
I won't be surprised if Obito was next to Madara and Yagura all along.

You guys wil see it.
Story will go like this; Edo Madara goes to Itachi, they will recognize each other which will confirm that the long haired masked man wasn't Tobi but Madara himself.
More people will start supporting Tobi is a Madara clone since Kisame recognized ''long haired Madara'' as Tobi.
Kishi will reveal everything related to the Uchiha's masacre and every secret will have been revealed to reveal Tobito's identity.


----------



## McLover (May 20, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Madara probably explained Kisame the way Tobi looked like which made him reffer ''so your that guy, Madara's imposter'', or in the worst case Madara was not only controling Yagura but Tobi as well which might have been next to him.



more baloney assumptions



loool3 said:


> You guys wil see it.
> Story will go like this; Edo Madara goes to Itachi, they will recognize each other which will confirm that the long haired masked man wasn't Tobi but Madara himself.
> More people will start supporting Tobi is a Madara clone since Kisame recognized ''long haired Madara'' as Tobi.
> Kishi will reveal everything related to the Uchiha's masacre and every secret will have been revealed to reveal *TOBI*'s identity



agreed & corrected


----------



## jacamo (May 20, 2012)

40... 18... and 9... 2 and 2.... Yawzaa!!!

anyway, the Obito theory has the most plotholes by far... but im tired and i just cant be bothered to elaborate 

i think i could get to 10 plotholes if i really tried 



McLover said:


> more baloney assumptions



lmao exactly 

plotholes cant be explained so baloney tends to be involved


----------



## Shaz (May 21, 2012)

Then whats the point of arguing about it? What is your theory, we can check how many plotholes that has.


----------



## Mateush (May 21, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Have you not got the idea that Madara has some sort of relation to Tobi? I'm sure Madara gave Tobi these cells, just that Tobi decided to betray him and not ressurect him using the Rinnegan, and now Madara is the walking dead with Edo Tensei.
> 
> How is it going to be Madara if Madara is an Edo Tensei, you might argue he's a clone, but why is he hiding his face, and if he was a clone I doubt he'd betray the real Madara, as from what the implications of Tobi's  actions have told us.
> 
> ...



I think it's pretty obvious that Tobi literally talked from Madara's memories such as his battle with Hashirama. He outright explained to Kabuto how he stole Hashirama's cells, and we know he had no reason to lie to Kabuto after he showed the sixth coffin. 

Also Sasuke should know a bit about Madara during that time Tobi was about to introduce himself. Sasuke literally fought at the valley of the end, therefore he must have learnt a few things about Madara. Here's no reason for Tobi to trying fool Sasuke.

Konan was about to die and Tobi admitted that he is Uchiha Madara with senju cells, which later was confirmed by Edo Madara. The only possibility is he in some way is Madara *or* he nonsense lied to Konan.

With these facts make me think Kishi was literally telling Tobi is Madara. It may be a clone or something simple as Kotoamatsukami. It still doesn't rule out the fact his brain thinks exactly same things as Madara, even if it's not same soul or body. That's why you guys shouldn't ignore Madara, because he pretty much thinks exactly as Madara does.

edit:
In Tobi's case. I think he actually was planning to resurrect Madara, not betraying him. He wanted Nagato to do the resurrection job, but in the end he betrayed him so he had to change his plans. And he couldn't do much when Kabuto showed his Edo Tensei, still it helped Tobi much in the war. It still doesn't mean he didn't plan to resurrect Madara, because only he could be Juubi's jin.


----------



## Shaz (May 21, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I think it's pretty obvious that Tobi literally talked from Madara's memories such as his battle with Hashirama. He outright explained to Kabuto how he stole Hashirama's cells, and we know he had no reason to lie to Kabuto after he showed the sixth coffin.
> 
> Also Sasuke should know a bit about Madara during that time Tobi was about to introduce himself. Sasuke literally fought at the valley of the end, therefore he must have learnt a few things about Madara. Here's no reason for Tobi to trying fool Sasuke.
> 
> ...




Did you not read about my theory of Zetsu?

We all know Zetsu can store memory of events as seen in the battle of Itachi and Sasuke where Tobi is telling Zetsu to record it.

Now I did say Tobi whoever he is, he is part Zetsu as well. It is possible Madara actually created Zetsu or had him created, and stored this information to have Tobi fill the gap of the mission when Madara would be dead. Saying he is an actual clone of Madara is guesswork and a bit pointless even when we are quite sure he is part Zetsu, which we know can record a chain of events.

It could be that Tobi didn't ressurect him because Nagato betrayed him and died, but that doesn't explain why Tobi didn't do it himself when he took the rinnegan.

So lastly, Tobi was suppose to act as Madara in the plan, but not as a clone. His body should just be made of a vessel (Izuna or Obito) to be able to use the Sharingan effectively, and Zetsu which has recorded events, we know he is Zetsu because of his arm, and it could be he is hiding a Zetsu eye under his bandage.


----------



## TJFuZioN (May 21, 2012)

In which chapters do we see long haired Tobi? I only remember him in 507 and 400. Does anyone know if there are any others?


----------



## McLover (May 21, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> In which chapters do we see long haired Tobi? I only remember him in 507 and 400. Does anyone know if there are any others?



these are the only chapters he shows on so far
thus enough to prove he was alive the same time tobi was, and that he in fact lived long after his battle
but mm at the time he was last seen nagato was mature/no a teen. so how come he awakened his rinnegan shortly before his death? does he mean his "fake" death at his battle..i'll have to think of this one


----------



## TJFuZioN (May 21, 2012)

McLover said:


> these are the only chapters he shows on so far
> thus enough to prove he was alive the same time tobi was, and that he in fact lived long after his battle
> but mm at the time he was last seen nagato was mature/no a teen. so how come he awakened his rinnegan shortly before his death? does he mean his "fake" death at his battle..i'll have to think of this one



I don't know if that proves whether Long-Haired Tobi and Short-Haired Tobi are different people or not. For one, it doesn't explain why Edo-Madara is so young(I know this could be Kabuto's doing but it was never explicitly stated), nor does it explain his need for a mask, why said mask has one eye-hole, or even Kisame's statement. Also, Long-Haird Tobi's hair doesn't really look like Madaras. It's not as long or as spiky(slightly more relaxed, I'd say). It's entirely possible Tobi purposefully grew his hair to look more like Madara. 

Furthermore, isn't it weird that it was Tobi who attacked Konoha, but then Madara who assisted in the Uchiha Massacre? Why switch places, then switch again, and then back again??


----------



## Talis (May 21, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Then whats the point of arguing about it? What is your theory, we can check how many plotholes that has.


lol, bam, i completely forgot he supports the Kagami theory. xD



McLover said:


> these are the only chapters he shows on so far
> thus enough to prove he was alive the same time tobi was, and that he in fact lived long after his battle
> but mm at the time he was last seen nagato was mature/no a teen. so how  come he awakened his rinnegan shortly before his death? does he mean his  "fake" death at his battle..i'll have to think of this one


Nagato was wandering around in his 20's while Madara tried to find him  back, but he couldn't meanwhile Madara died and came back with Edo  Tensei, his speach about Nagato being grown will make still sense in  that way.



McLover said:


> only gaara and nagato changed, to the good site  from the "evil" side, non of the others changed or has a connection to  my point, that's not called a "discussion" its called neglecting my  points by any means ^^
> orochimaru when did he change? sasuke was an avenger since the beginning  including his friendship with naruto it all was planned so that he  could kill his best friend to awaken his mangekyou sharingan to get the  same eyes as itachi before him and fight him, neji only changed his view  about that there's no such as destiny if ppl work hard they can get  there he didnt get brainwashed at all


lol, this is what people always do when they get owned in a point, starting to lie around with some cheap excuses.
Nearly 50% of the characters in Naruto went from good to bad or from bad to good, and everyone knows that.
And wt.f ''non of the other characters has a connection to my point'',  you said Tobi can't be Obito because he was a good guy, i told you  already that nearly 50% of the characters changed their personality, and  now you say you such thing lol, admit it you lost about that  personality point.

Oh: Tobi even said in the last few chapters ''theres no more hope in  this world'' which strongly implies that he was a good guy before.


----------



## McLover (May 21, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> I don't know if that proves whether Long-Haired Tobi and Short-Haired Tobi are different people or not. For one, it doesn't explain why Edo-Madara is so young(I know this could be Kabuto's doing but it was never explicitly stated), nor does it explain his need for a mask, why said mask has one eye-hole, or even Kisame's statement. Also, Long-Haird Tobi's hair doesn't really look like Madaras. It's not as long or as spiky(slightly more relaxed, I'd say). It's entirely possible Tobi purposefully grew his hair to look more like Madara.
> 
> Furthermore, isn't it weird that it was Tobi who attacked Konoha, but then Madara who assisted in the Uchiha Massacre? Why switch places, then switch again, and then back again??



i'd say madara didn't want to participate in any fights anymore due to the severe injuries and because of the fact that everyone believes he's so dead, even hashirama himself, and i only say that just for the sake of acknowledging itachi's smartness of not being fooled by this character not being madara, think of it, of all the uchiha, itachi was the only one who noticed his presence, you wouldn't mistakenly notice a presence of someone who doesnt exist or is dead, i bet there will be more story or explanation to that one, genius!




loool3 said:


> Nagato was wandering around in his 20's while Madara tried to find him  back, but he couldn't meanwhile Madara died and came back with Edo  Tensei, his speach about Nagato being grown will make still sense in  that way.



no no, look bro, madara awakened his rinnegan shortly before his death, by the time jiraya came back to konoha after he's written his book inspired by nagato, kushina was about 8 months pregnant, just explaining the time line and age difference of naruto and nagato and tobi, tobi fought minato shortly after that scene of kushina being pregnant, so by that time madara should've been already dead right? however, itachi met long hair madara around 6 years after that right? that's how old sasuke and naruto were at the time itachi took out the uchiha.



loool3 said:


> lol, this is what people always do when they get owned in a point, starting to lie around with some cheap excuses.
> Nearly 50% of the characters in Naruto went from good to bad or from bad to good, and everyone knows that.
> And wt.f ''non of the other characters has a connection to my point'',  you said Tobi can't be Obito because he was a good guy, i told you  already that nearly 50% of the characters changed their personality, and  now you say you such thing lol, admit it you lost about that  personality point.



not excuses, facts^^
you and your obito pfff


----------



## TJFuZioN (May 21, 2012)

McLover said:


> i'd say madara didn't want to participate in any fights anymore due to the severe injuries and because of the fact that everyone believes he's so dead, even hashirama himself, and i only say that just for the sake of acknowledging itachi's smartness of not being fooled by this character not being madara, think of it, of all the uchiha, itachi was the only one who noticed his presence, you wouldn't mistakenly notice a presence of someone who doesnt exist or is dead, i bet there will be more story or explanation to that one, genius!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But see, you said it yourself: The Uchiha Massacre was AFTER the attack on Konoha. So why would he send Tobi to do his work for him, then 6 years later, help Itachi with the Massacre especially since, as you pointed out, he should've already been dead by then??

This also raises the question of how Itachi found "Madara" in the first place.  How did Itachi, a 10-year-old, randomly know that Uchiha Madara was alive? Did he sense his chakra? All the way in The Mist Village?? How did he know what Madara's chakra(who at this point I'm convinced was Tobi) felt like?? The more I think about this, the less sense it makes.


----------



## Talis (May 21, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> But see, you said it yourself: The Uchiha Massacre was AFTER the attack on Konoha. So why would he send Tobi to do his work for him, then 6 years later, help Itachi with the Massacre especially since, as you pointed out, he should've already been dead by then??
> 
> This also raises the question of how Itachi found "Madara" in the first place.  How did Itachi, a 10-year-old, randomly know that Uchiha Madara was alive? Did he sense his chakra? All the way in The Mist Village?? How did he know what Madara's chakra(who at this point I'm convinced was Tobi) felt like?? The more I think about this, the less sense it makes.


Fugaku probably knew about Madara.
Perhaps Uchiha clan fought against an injured Madara at the Kyuubi's night while Tobi was fighting against Minato.
after that both side survived and Madara took on revenge against the Uchiha for that reason.


----------



## TJFuZioN (May 21, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Fugaku probably knew about Madara.
> Perhaps Uchiha clan fought against an injured Madara at the Kyuubi's night while Tobi was fighting against Minato.
> after that both side survived and Madara took on revenge against the Uchiha for that reason.



But you're forgetting that Madara got his Rinnegan not long before he died. And since, as far as we know, Nagato literally had Madara's eyes, he (Madara) had to already be dead on the night the Kyuubi attacked. Also remember, all evidence indicate that Nagato is older than (or at the very least, the same age as) Minato, which means Madara couldn't possibly have given Kid Nagato his eyes after the Massacre, which happened 6 years after Tobi's fight with a 20-something-year-old Minato.


----------



## Iruel (May 21, 2012)

Madara had no idea Naruto was the Kuramas most recnt Jinchuriki=him not being alive during the attack on Konoha, meaning most likely he wasn't the one who met Itachi or Kisame. It was most likely Tobi in both of those instances pretending to be Madara.


----------



## Talis (May 21, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> But you're forgetting that Madara got his Rinnegan not long before he died. And since, as far as we know, Nagato literally had Madara's eyes, he (Madara) had to already be dead on the night the Kyuubi attacked. Also remember, all evidence indicate that Nagato is older than (or at the very least, the same age as) Minato, which means Madara couldn't possibly have given Kid Nagato his eyes after the Massacre, which happened 6 years after Tobi's fight with a 20-something-year-old Minato.


I believe the one which controled Yagura was the real Madara as he was the man Itachi knew.
Madara gave his blind eyes to Nagato.
I also think that Madara tried to find Nagato back when he was around 20 but couldn't find him back and died meanwhile, thats why he respond that Nagato has grown when he comes back in edo form.
I know it's to farfetched, but it will be revealed step by step as soon as Edo Madara goes to Itachi.


----------



## McLover (May 21, 2012)

KuroShiroZetsu said:


> Madara had no idea Naruto was the Kuramas most recnt Jinchuriki=him not being alive during the attack on Konoha, meaning most likely he wasn't the one who met Itachi or Kisame. It was most likely Tobi in both of those instances pretending to be Madara.




i kinda agree, makes sense too, but madara was only checking if kyuubi was still around alive, not who the jinchuriki is, so he knew that hashirama actually sealed kyuubi in his wife, she was the 1st jinchuriki. and in case he and tobi were plotting something (which is obvious and proven now) including capturing the tails, he also probably was checking if the bijuus were captured including the nine tails.



TJFuZioN said:


> But you're forgetting that Madara got his Rinnegan not long before he died. And since, as far as we know, Nagato literally had Madara's eyes, he (Madara) had to already be dead on the night the Kyuubi attacked. Also remember, all evidence indicate that Nagato is older than (or at the very least, the same age as) Minato, which means Madara couldn't possibly have given Kid Nagato his eyes after the Massacre, which happened 6 years after Tobi's fight with a 20-something-year-old Minato.



minato's older than nagato. when jiraya went back to the leaf nagato was still a teen, meanwhile minato was a hokage
in those next 6-7 years akatsuki was formed, yahiko got killed, nagato used gedo mazo, i would guess it was the same period when kisame met long hair madara, that period was the forming of akatsuki, collecting those who are lost and in pain, who dont know who they are anymore in their world, or left their villages, and using them to capture the bijuu when the time's right and are fearful enough
starting -in order- with Pein, kisame, sasori, orochimaru, and then itachi..
it was hiruzen who followed orochimaru to his researching hideout so it was after minato's death, same period of time as well that all this happened


----------



## NW (May 21, 2012)

I'm starting to really doubt it's obito due to the period of time between Madara's assumed death and obito's apparent "death". i just don't get how they could have met unless the long haired guy with mask was Madara. Maybe he didn't want anyone to recognize him so he borrowed Tobi's mask. I severely doubt it though, because Madara talks as if he's been dead for a long time. So, I guess now I have to be open to more options, maybe Kagami, Izuna, or the Elder Son. I still think Obito makes the most sense though although I'm starting to doubt it..........


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 21, 2012)

While it's true that Madara seems to know who Tobi is, the fact that Tobi's earliest appearance chronologically comes after Obito's death is significant in my opinion.

Really, if we had seen even one panel of Tobi during a time before Obito's death, the Tobito theory would be thoroughly debunked. But that hasn't happened yet, and I feel there is a reason for that.


----------



## Talis (May 21, 2012)

I bet you Madara wasn't only controling Yagura but Tobi next to him as well.
After Madara came out the shadow Kisame cut the flashback, because not only Madara came out of the shadows but Tobi as well which was also under the controle of Madara.
Of course Kishi couldn't show Tobi or it would have 1 hitted Tobi is Madara theory and it also should have the mistery of the 6th coffin.

AND BTW: Theres another reason to believe that the long haired man was also Madara, notice how ''Madara'' pops up twice, first the 6th coffin shows up in chapter 490 which contains Madara then we see a flashback at chapter 510~ which also is Madara obviously.
The timing of writting that part is perfectly which simply increases the long haired masked man was the real Madara theory.


----------



## Mateush (May 21, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I'm starting to really doubt it's obito due to the period of time between Madara's assumed death and obito's apparent "death". i just don't get how they could have met unless the long haired guy with mask was Madara. Maybe he didn't want anyone to recognize him so he borrowed Tobi's mask. I severely doubt it though, because Madara talks as if he's been dead for a long time. So, I guess now I have to be open to more options, maybe Kagami, Izuna, or the Elder Son. I still think Obito makes the most sense though although I'm starting to doubt it..........



Good you are starting to realize it. Obito is very unlikely. 

Kagami, Izuna, or the Elder Son would work. Still I think only Izuna or Madara or perhaps Elder Son would fit the story much better than Kagami. Because Kagami would be too much random.


----------



## Syxaxis (May 21, 2012)

Madara doesn't even know about Tobi. He was probably thinking about Zetsu when he said "him".


----------



## Mateush (May 21, 2012)

Syxaxis said:


> Madara doesn't even know about Tobi. He was probably thinking about Zetsu when he said "him".



Nope... Kabuto said "fake Madara", so they were talking about Tobi.


----------



## Syxaxis (May 21, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Nope... Kabuto said "fake Madara", so they were talking about Tobi.


Fake Madara is just project. Nothing related to Tobi's identity.


----------



## NW (May 21, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> While it's true that Madara seems to know who Tobi is, the fact that Tobi's earliest appearance chronologically comes after Obito's death is significant in my opinion.
> 
> Really, if we had seen even one panel of Tobi during a time before Obito's death, the Tobito theory would be thoroughly debunked. But that hasn't happened yet, and I feel there is a reason for that.



Lol, thanks man. I forgot about that. My faith in the Obito side of the force is renewed!!!!



Syxaxis said:


> Madara doesn't even know about Tobi. He was probably thinking about Zetsu when he said "him".



I was thinking that too. I didn't think it was very likely but it actually is possible. White Zetsu is a clone of Hashirama which might mean Black Zetsu is a clone of Madara, thus making him a "fake Madara".


----------



## Mateush (May 21, 2012)

Syxaxis said:


> Fake Madara is just project. Nothing related to Tobi's identity.



No don't start to think too deep about it. It's obvious they were talking about Tobi, *not* Zetsu.


----------



## Syxaxis (May 21, 2012)

> I was thinking that too. I didn't think it was very likely but it actually is possible. White Zetsu is a clone of Hashirama which might mean Black Zetsu is a clone of Madara, thus making him a "fake Madara".


yep. Black Zetsu probably has Madara's memories and his sharingan powers which allowed him to mindrape/brainwash Obito.



> No don't start to think too deep about it. It's obvious they were talking about Tobi, not Zetsu.


Can you prove this? 

Just think about it. Madara would never entrust his eyes and plans to someone else until that someone is his creation. And his creation is Zetsu.


----------



## Mateush (May 21, 2012)

Syxaxis said:


> Can you prove this?
> 
> Just think about it. Madara would never entrust his eyes and plans to someone else until that someone is his creation. And his creation is Zetsu.



I think this page should be enough


Kabuto said that he is "his supporter" and we know that Tobi is the only one who is boss, not Black or White Zetsu. Only Tobi makes sense.


----------



## NW (May 21, 2012)

Syxaxis said:


> yep. Black Zetsu probably has Madara's memories and his sharingan powers *which allowed him to mindrape/brainwash Obito*.



Agree on all points except for the bolded. I think that, if Tobi is Obito, then he should be doing all this of his own free will. I mean, the final villain being a victim of brainwashing would be pretty lame IMO. Kishi has this theme, a theme for which he bases Major villains on. The theme is that there is a team that parallels team 7, and something happens that makes one of the members of that team go batshit crazy and go all evil and whatnot. Now, Obito was on a team paralleling team 7, if this theme is consistent, and Tobi is Obito, i think it would be cooler and more likely that he has aquired this view on his own, without the help of brainwashing. Here, if you have the time, you should read my post HERE: 

It should clear some things up. (Sorry for straying from the Zetsu stuff, lol. But, it was starting to get a little off topic XD)


----------



## Syxaxis (May 21, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I think this page should be enough
> 
> 
> Kabuto said that he is "his supporter" and we know that Tobi is the only one who is boss, not Black or White Zetsu. Only Tobi makes sense.


Black Zetsu is Tobi's superior actually. It has yet to be revealed.


----------



## Syxaxis (May 21, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Agree on all points except for the bolded. I think that, if Tobi is Obito, then he should be doing all this of his own free will. I mean, the final villain being a victim of brainwashing would be pretty lame IMO. Kishi has this theme, a theme for which he bases Major villains on. The theme is that there is a team that parallels team 7, and something happens that makes one of the members of that team go batshit crazy adn go all evil and whatnot. Now, obito was on a team paralleling team 7, if this theme is consistent, and Tobi is obito, i think it would be cooler and more likely that he has aquired this view on his own, without the help of brainwashing. Here, if you ahev teh time, you should read my post HERE:
> 
> It should clear some thigns up. (Sorry for straying from the Zetsu stuff, lol. But, it was starting to get a little off topic XD)


Dude, if Tobi is somehow Obito then he is certainly being branwashed by some other villain. No way character like Obito would change so radically on his own accord.


----------



## Mateush (May 21, 2012)

Syxaxis said:


> Black Zetsu is Tobi's superior actually. It has yet to be revealed.



You wanted me to give you my proof, so now I'll ask you to give me the proof about Black Zetsu is Tobi's superior.


----------



## Syxaxis (May 21, 2012)

Mateush said:


> You wanted me to give you my proof, so now I'll ask you to give me the proof about Black Zetsu is Tobi's superior.


Just read the conversation between Zetsu and Tobi at the beginning of the shippudden. 
Zetsu treated Tobi as he was inferior.


----------



## Mateush (May 21, 2012)

Syxaxis said:


> Just read the conversation between Zetsu and Tobi at the beginning of the shippudden.
> Zetsu treated Tobi as he was inferior.



At the beginning of the shippuden? Are you talking about anime? I actually don't know what you are referring to, so give me the page, please.


----------



## Syxaxis (May 21, 2012)

Mateush said:


> At the beginning of the shippuden? Are you talking about anime? I actually don't know what you are referring to, so give me the page, please.



Link removed


----------



## Mateush (May 21, 2012)

Syxaxis said:


> Link removed



How does it proof that Black Zetsu is Tobi's superior?


----------



## NW (May 21, 2012)

Syxaxis said:


> Dude, if Tobi is somehow Obito then he is certainly being branwashed by some other villain. No way character like Obito would change so radically on his own accord.



Have you seen Nagato?! That dude was nicer and a bigger crybaby than Obito and just look at him now!!!! Or, like a hundred chapters ago, but you get the point. What I'm trying to say is that under the right circumstances, Obito could change. it might be linked with the still unexplained death of Rin. Of course, taht's probably not the ONLY reason he went evil. (Well, then again, Orochimaru went nuts just because his parents died, but still!!!) Not to mention that it would be more climactic. Tobi sounds like someone who has experienced alot of pain in his life and has truly lost alot. Almost as if he were once someone good but went evil. Look at this quote here: 
Link removed

"There is no such thing as hope! The concept of hope is nothing more than giving up, a word that holds no true meaning."

That sounds like a pretty mentally fucked person to me.

Link removed

"When one loves... there is the risk of hate."

Obito loved Rin. Rin dies, Obito gets hatred.

Link removed

"This world is completely worthless...There is nothing left in it but misery."

He mst have suffered a shit load of pain. The only Tobi candidate I can think of who could potentially have suffered so much pain is Obito.

This proves that tobi isn't "brainwashed". He is an actual person with feelings that have been broken down and destroyed.


----------



## Syxaxis (May 21, 2012)

Mateush said:


> How does it proof that Black Zetsu is Tobi's superior?


_*
White Zetsu: Idiot. It's not that simple
Black Zetsu: Easy. We can let him in.*_

From this dialogue it looked like Black Zetsu was the real boss


----------



## Mateush (May 21, 2012)

Syxaxis said:


> _*
> White Zetsu: Idiot. It's not that simple
> Black Zetsu: Easy. We can let him in.*_
> 
> From this dialogue it looked like Black Zetsu was the real boss



But now Tobi is the one who bosses over Black Zetsu? :/


----------



## McLover (May 21, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> While it's true that Madara seems to know who Tobi is, the fact that Tobi's earliest appearance chronologically comes after Obito's death is significant in my opinion.
> 
> Really, if we had seen even one panel of Tobi during a time before Obito's death, the Tobito theory would be thoroughly debunked. But that hasn't happened yet, and I feel there is a reason for that.



no we haven't seen him before that
but i'll tell you: "do you have any idea how long i've waited for this moment"
Link removed



loool3 said:


> I bet you Madara wasn't only controling Yagura but Tobi next to him as well.
> After Madara came out the shadow Kisame cut the flashback, because not only Madara came out of the shadows but Tobi as well which was also under the controle of Madara.
> Of course Kishi couldn't show Tobi or it would have 1 hitted Tobi is Madara theory and it also should have the mistery of the 6th coffin.
> 
> ...



1. baloney 
2. then explain my post of the timeline about how could he be alive and met itachi if he died shortly before his rinnegan activation at the time nagato was around 20s? 



Syxaxis said:


> Madara doesn't even know about Tobi. He was probably thinking about Zetsu when he said "him".



epic


----------



## Syxaxis (May 21, 2012)

Mateush said:


> But now Tobi is the one who bosses over Black Zetsu? :/


It's because Tobi took Madara's identity and implementing his plans. Most likely Black Zetsu transfered Madara's memmories into Obito's mind or something.


----------



## Mateush (May 21, 2012)

Syxaxis said:


> It's because Tobi took Madara's identity and implementing his plans. Most likely Black Zetsu transfered Madara's memmories into Obito's mind or something.



It actually could work well, still it's nothing you can be sure about. Anyways, I like the idea.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 21, 2012)

McLover said:


> no we haven't seen him before that
> but i'll tell you: "do you have any idea how long i've waited for this moment"
> Itachi calls Megatama



That holds about as much weight as his "I gave Nagato the Rinnegan" statement.


----------



## NW (May 21, 2012)

Tobi:  Itachi calls Megatama
Kagami:  Itachi calls Megatama

The eyebrows don't match at all. Kagami's are WAY too thin. Kagami's eyebrows are also much longer than Tobi's. It is also worth noting that the eyeshapes are not as alike as people think, especially since Kagami's is viewed from an angle. Bottom Line: Tobi =/= Kagami


Tobi:  Itachi calls Megatama
Shisui:  Itachi calls Megatama

Eyeshape is alike, but there are small differences, such as the fact that Shisui's eyes angle a little in the middle. Tobi's don't do that. Shisui also has thick lines coming off the edges of each of his eyes. Shisui's eyelids are also too crooked to be Tobi's. The eyebrows however, are a dead match. But, this isn't enough to overcome the other inconsistencies. Not to mention, how it would make no sense for Tobi to be Shisui. There are way to many points to explain. Bottom Line: Tobi =/= Shisui


Tobi:  Itachi calls Megatama
Madara:  Itachi calls Megatama

Everything matches perfectly. Although that's to be expected since we WERE supposed to believe that Tobi was Madara, after all. Plus, Madara got Edo Tensei'd, so it can't be him. Bottom Line: Tobi =/= Madara


Tobi:  Itachi calls Megatama
Izuna:  Itachi calls Megatama

Eyeshape, eyebrows, and eyelids match very nicely. I really think it could be Izuna. Sure, Madara said that Izuna died but maybe Madara revived Izuna with Rinne Tensei in order to help with the Moon's Eye Plan. Bottom Line: Tobi being Izuna = Possible


Okay, I couldn't find any manga close ups of Fugaku, so, from what I can see in the anime close ups, he looks absolutely nothing like Tobi. Absolutely nothing about him matches what we've seen of Tobi's face. Plus, it just doesn't fit at all. We saw Itachi kill him. ITACHI. ITACHI. ITACHI. Itachi is definitely not the type of person to kill someone without making sure he finished the job. Bottom Line: Tobi =/= Fugaku


Tobi:  Itachi calls Megatama
Obito:  Itachi calls Megatama

Dead fucking match. Obito's the only other one besides Madara who has completely the same facial features as Tobi. Tobi's not Madara sooooo.... Do The Math. The only real holes in this theory are based on mere assumptions about the timeline. ASSUMPTIONS. So, yah.

I think I've pretty much narrowed it down to Obito and Izuna. Although, there are more panels to support Tobi being Obito then there are to support Tobi being Izuna, so I think obito is more likely.


----------



## tobi23 (May 21, 2012)

*Madara created Tobi/Zetsu*

MYJC and MissinqNin hit the nail on the head. Their theories will most likely prove to be right as it makes complete sense. And if you believe in the Obito theory, I am not saying it can't be Obito, but it is unlikely because of the timeline and I by the explanations I have seen, it seems like a very weird and lame way of portraying who Tobi really is.


----------



## NW (May 21, 2012)

tobi23 said:


> MYJC and MissinqNin hit the nail on the head. Their theories will most likely prove to be right as it makes complete sense. And if you believe in the Obito theory, I am not saying it can't be Obito, but it is unlikely because of the timeline and I by the explanations I have seen, it seems like a very weird and lame way of portraying who Tobi really is.



Soooo, you're saying it'd be lame for Tobi to be obito, yet you're also saying that it would be cool for him to be a frikkin madara clone????


----------



## TJFuZioN (May 21, 2012)

McLover said:


> i kinda agree, makes sense too, but madara was only checking if kyuubi was still around alive, not who the jinchuriki is, so he knew that hashirama actually sealed kyuubi in his wife, she was the 1st jinchuriki. and in case he and tobi were plotting something (which is obvious and proven now) including capturing the tails, he also probably was checking if the bijuus were captured including the nine tails.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you sure? It would certainly make more sense that way, but I've always had it the other way around. I'm not too sure about exactly which war is which, but I think the Amegakure orphans were trained by Jiraiya during the 2nd Ninja war, where Hanzo named them the Sannin and all that. At that time, he didn't seem to know Rasengaan or any of that, which he would've learnt from Minato already. And I don't think Minato's lived through 2 wars(he would've been fighting alongside his sensei, like Kakashi's team did during the 3rd Ninja War). Come to think of it, was Minato even yet Hokage during the 3rd War?


----------



## Mateush (May 22, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Soooo, you're saying it'd be lame for Tobi to be obito, yet you're also saying that it would be cool for him to be a frikkin madara clone????



I think Madara theory gets discredited too much. We would see a lot of flashbacks about Madara and his secrets, plans which are not bad. Also Izuna would not be so bad like Obito does. I just think Izuna and Madara are pretty safe bets, because the timeline is flawless and even their motives would make sense.

After discussion with a few here I once again starting to believe zetsu created by Madara is pretty safe bet as well.


----------



## auem (May 22, 2012)

McLover said:


> i kinda agree, makes sense too, but madara was only checking if kyuubi was still around alive, not who the jinchuriki is, so he knew that hashirama actually sealed kyuubi in his wife, she was the 1st jinchuriki. and in case he and tobi were plotting something (which is obvious and proven now) including capturing the tails, he also probably was checking if the bijuus were captured including the nine tails.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you are totally miscalculated the timeline....jiraiya met nagato during 2nd Ninja War..

i am pretty sure that rain's orphans were jiraiya's first batch of students...even when minato was talking about naming his son naruto after reading his book,jiraiya told that it was his first book and it didn't sell at all...he was talking about something that happened in the distant past,in his youth....
the best prove is jiraiya's appearance itself....when hokage minato was talking to jiraiya he was quite old..unlike the time when he bade farewell to nagato...


----------



## Mateush (May 22, 2012)

auem said:


> you are totally miscalculated the timeline....jiraiya met nagato during 2nd Ninja War..
> 
> i am pretty sure that rain's orphans were jiraiya's first batch of students...even when minato was talking about naming his son naruto after reading his book,jiraiya told that it was his first book and it didn't sell at all...he was talking about something that happened in the distant past,in his youth....
> the best prove is jiraiya's appearance itself....when hokage minato was talking to jiraiya he was quite old..unlike the time when he bade farewell to nagato...



It's impressive that Konan still looks young and sexy. It must be her paper technique


----------



## McLover (May 22, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> Are you sure? It would certainly make more sense that way, but I've always had it the other way around. I'm not too sure about exactly which war is which, but I think the Amegakure orphans were trained by Jiraiya during the 2nd Ninja war, where Hanzo named them the Sannin and all that. At that time, he didn't seem to know Rasengaan or any of that, which he would've learnt from Minato already. And I don't think Minato's lived through 2 wars(he would've been fighting alongside his sensei, like Kakashi's team did during the 3rd Ninja War). Come to think of it, was Minato even yet Hokage during the 3rd War?





auem said:


> you are totally miscalculated the timeline....jiraiya met nagato during 2nd Ninja War..
> 
> i am pretty sure that rain's orphans were jiraiya's first batch of students...even when minato was talking about naming his son naruto after reading his book,jiraiya told that it was his first book and it didn't sell at all...he was talking about something that happened in the distant past,in his youth....
> the best prove is jiraiya's appearance itself....when hokage minato was talking to jiraiya he was quite old..unlike the time when he bade farewell to nagato...



ok didnt consider the wars on the timeline, so nagato met jiraya in the 2nd ninja world war when nagato was a kid about how old 10? and it was during the third ninja war when yahiko died (about 15yo?) and when minato was known as konoha's yellow flash, i assume tobi's strike was at the end of the war ? so i'd say minato's still some years older than nagato
correct me if im mistaken plz, i just woke up lol


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

First we should actually establish what Zetsu is.

Zetsu is a _highly_ trusted member of Akatsuki, as he knew both Pein's and Tobi's, whereas the other Akatsuki member didn't, or at least the thought they did.

The white Zetsu is definitely Hashirama's cells. Now the black Zetsu is kind of like White Zetsu's alter-ego, and is known to be a lot more serious than black Zetsu. It could be very likely the black Zetsu contains Madara's memory/cells, which were attached to Tobi, using a Vessel (Most likely a damaged one otherwise Zetsu wouldn't really be required as apart of Tobi, which could mean it could be Obito or even Izuna as both were injured/killed). 

Now for how did the Rinnegan get to Nagato in time, this is what I believe:

- Madara was losing the light in his eyes due to excessive use of the Mangekyou Sharingan
- Madara implanted Izuna's eyes, awakening the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan
- Madara then took his original Mangekyou Sharingan eyes and implanted them into Nagato, as he knew he could awaken his own Rinnegan due to Hashirama's cells, and Nagato could with his bloodline.
- Nagato awakens his Rinnegan during the time his parents are killed and _kills_ the attackers as he is Uzumaki which is a relative clan to Senju, and then he also now had Madara's eyes which contained Uchiha powers (Remember that he awoken the Rinnegan, not just got it out of the blue, by having it shoved by Madara in his eye socket).
- During this time before/after Nagato awakening his Rinnegan, Madara awakens his Rinnegan, creating Tobi with Zetsu and Izuna or Obito's body as a vessel 
(This means Tobi has a suitable body but with a different personality, due to Zetsu which also contain Madara's/Hashirama's cells which uses their memory, thus he says "I am a shell of my former self" meaning he is same as the person who is the vessel from the outside, but from the inside, he is totally different).


So the Madara seen battling Minato is Tobi, which also explains his Zetsu arm. Itachi may of recognized him as Madara as the Zetsu which has recorded information/cells of Madara made it look believable, yet Itachi still said he was very suspicious of Tobi, remember?

Tobi's mission had to only be gathering Bijuu, once gathered, Madara was supposed to be ressurected. Now perhaps Kabuto has only destroyed Tobi's plan, as Madara was supposed to be ressurected after all the Bijuu's were collected. That is why Tobi awakened Rinnegan too, as Nagato ended up dying, thus Tobi had to ressurect Madara instead.


----------



## SaturdayMourning (May 22, 2012)

Tobi is RS older son. How else does he know so much about the ninja world, the Rinnegan, the MS techinques, and being alive during Madara Uchiha's time?


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

SaturdayMourning said:


> Tobi is RS older son. How else does he know so much about the ninja world, the Rinnegan, the MS techinques, and being alive during Madara Uchiha's time?



Read my post.

RS son's are a lot more irrelevant, and wouldn't have enough motive, whereas Tobi could be a manipulated person like Izuna or Obito, or created from their body, alongside Zetsu (Zetsu can store information/memory).


----------



## SaturdayMourning (May 22, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Read my post.
> 
> RS son's are a lot more irrelevant, and wouldn't have enough motive, whereas Tobi could be a manipulated person like Izuna or Obito, or created from their body, alongside Zetsu (Zetsu can store information/memory).



Of course it has alot more motive. It was stated in his story that he lusted for power because he thought that force was crucial for peace.


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

SaturdayMourning said:


> Of course it has alot more motive. It was stated in his story that he lusted for power because he thought that force was crucial for peace.



Yes but do you think a character never introduced before, in actual person, other than background story will pop out of nowhere? He is long dead, Madara now carries his mission, thus he created Tobi using Zetsu and a Vessel.

At most, it could be the Elder son's body as the Vessel.


----------



## McLover (May 22, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6-eQB6ha8M&feature=youtu.be[/YOUTUBE]

alright
so this dude says that the edo tensei zombies are brought back to their before-death state, and that's proven with nagato and chiyo

nagato absorbing chakra going prime: here
chiyo,kimimaro, yagura: here

however kabuto states that madara's form is special 
here
beyond his prime : here

hmm, it appears on this page and the next that what kabuto states is completely true: here
madara didn't die after that battle, if we all agree on that i see no reason why he would push himself to death just to awaken his rinnegan in the same day of battle or the next day, the time he lived after that battle is unknown, so it could be possible he was the one who met itachi (long hair madara), since tsuchikage's still alive since then too so..

here
"..the impure world resurrection was originally intended to be used to wipe the map clean, along with the caster. we'll be regenerated soon enough"
seems he has some information about it
so, was it the second hokage who created this technique or only could use it?
here
it states that only second hokage and orochimaru could use it, not anyone before or after that, so just a random question of who originally made this technique? if it was the second himself then this could be also used as a proof madara lived "that" long after his battle? or not? idk

now the second point is about the rinnegan, *MissinqNin* you said that madara planted his MS in nagato so he could naturally awaken them since he's already a senju/uzumaki/has the dna, and madara still had his EMS from his brother and activated his rinnegan before his death, with that said there should be 2 pairs of rinnegan (4 eyes) but we see 1 pair only, i doubt tobi didn't collect madara's rinnegan after his death when i see his sharingan collection. i also wouldn't guess why he wouldn't give them to tobi instead cause he also could awaken the rinnegan due to his body (cause he uses izanagi which required both powers)


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

McLover said:


> now the second point is about the rinnegan, *MissinqNin* you said that madara planted his MS in nagato so he could naturally awaken them since he's already a senju/uzumaki/has the dna, and madara still had his EMS from his brother and activated his rinnegan before his death, with that said there should be 2 pairs of rinnegan (4 eyes) but we see 1 pair only, i doubt tobi didn't collect madara's rinnegan after his death when i see his sharingan collection. i also wouldn't guess why he wouldn't give them to tobi instead cause he also could awaken the rinnegan due to his body (cause he uses izanagi which required both powers)




How do you know though there aren't one pair? The pair Nagato had were still Madara's if he gave him his old MS to awaken them, without which he wouldn't of had Rinnegan at all.

Also about Madara's life span, we can't prove he was alive during that meeting with Itachi, or not. Perhaps he was, and had awakened his Rinnegan, I would see no reason why he wouldn't if he was able to take Hashirama's cells after the battle. Perhaps after Kyuubi's attack/Minato's fight he died, and during this time left Tobi incharge, to look after Nagato, and collect Bijuu.

Perhaps if it was Madara who met Itachi, it could explain the fact that Itachi felt suspicious of Tobi, as he didn't seem exactly alike to Madara, but wasn't noticable to other people, as Itachi had a Sharingan to see Chakra and was an Uchiha.

EDIT: I'm onto something, I believe when Edo Madara said "He was able to revive me like this" he meant that Tobi was supposed to (But Kabuto did) revive him in his "Prime" form, which could be a very light clue that Madara did live longer than we expected, and he could've been the first masked man.


----------



## Escargon (May 22, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Tobi: here
> Kagami: here
> 
> The eyebrows don't match at all. Kagami's are WAY too thin. Kagami's eyebrows are also much longer than Tobi's. It is also worth noting that the eyeshapes are not as alike as people think, especially since Kagami's is viewed from an angle. Bottom Line: Tobi =/= Kagami
> ...



Hey, watch this:



Whos Madara? Whos Madara baby? Madara is dead, Tobi is not Madara, Tobi is RS son, Tobi is Madara... uh wait?


----------



## tupadre97 (May 22, 2012)

Tobi is a zetsu clone made by madara and tobirama hence the name.


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (May 22, 2012)

after vote fight madara got a lock of hashi's hair, made tobi and possibly zetsu via some mokuton and gave tobi his eyes.


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBmX_AHVLUo[/YOUTUBE]

Also we need to stop this "His eyebrows" don't match crap, because if Tobi has aged (Which it does look like) his appearance would have changed slightly from when he was in his prime age.


----------



## Talis (May 22, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Hey, watch this:
> 
> 
> 
> Whos Madara? Whos Madara baby? Madara is dead, Tobi is not Madara, Tobi is RS son, Tobi is Madara... uh wait?


Check my avatar and Obito trolls you from there.


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Check my avatar and Obito trolls you from there.




Perhaps he used Zetsu, on his arm when Konan ripped it off as well as on his face. Remember he put his mask down while repairing himself with Zetsu?

I can't actually remember what chapter your avatar is from, could you enlighten me?


----------



## Moon Fang (May 22, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBmX_AHVLUo[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Also we need to stop this "His eyebrows" don't match crap, because if Tobi has aged (Which it does look like) his appearance would have changed slightly from when he was in his prime age.



That theory . Hypothetically lets say Tobi is Madaras son. Maybe Madara's experimentations on himself caused on himself caused Tobi to be born imperfectly and that's the reason why his body is made out of Zestu. He may have started out strong and slowly declined requiring the help of Zestu to complete the plan.


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (May 22, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBmX_AHVLUo[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Also we need to stop this "His eyebrows" don't match crap, because if Tobi has aged (Which it does look like) his appearance would have changed slightly from when he was in his prime age.





my second theory as well.


----------



## Talis (May 22, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Perhaps he used Zetsu, on his arm when Konan ripped it off as well as on his face. Remember he put his mask down while repairing himself with Zetsu?
> 
> I can't actually remember what chapter your avatar is from, could you enlighten me?


397, remove the wrinkles with paint and you see Obito clearly behind the mask;


----------



## Easley (May 22, 2012)

loool3 said:


> 397, remove the wrinkles with paint and you see Obito clearly behind the mask;


I think the art in that panel is pretty crap to be honest. Plain and lacking in detail. I wouldn't use it as proof of anything, except how not to draw. 

I'm glad you called them wrinkles though and not scars!


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

Manga drawing as such are out of the question, as I'm sure they're not hints to the identity of Tobi, unlike other clues such as age ranges and time frames for events, and speech which could tell us a bit about what Tobi is like, and compare them to our candidates.

If we were to eliminate this unproven/unreliable theories of "He extended his life by so-and-so jutsu" or "Is a clone of.." we are left with age ranges and so on, and motives, and that leads me to believe Kagami is a strong candidate, as his Sharingan abilities are not really known, he is apparently deceased but with little backstory and is suppose to be Madara's son, and his Sensei was Tobi(rama), and his age fits.

Sometimes I wonder if Kishimoto has left some unclear tracks/openings for us to guess too far, whilst Kagami is right under our noses.


----------



## Punished Pathos (May 22, 2012)

lol, Tobi=Kagami?
Hmm lol.
If that's the case, maybe Kagami was Madara's spy?


----------



## Punished Pathos (May 22, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Have you seen Nagato?! That dude was nicer and a bigger crybaby than Obito and just look at him now!!!! Or, like a hundred chapters ago, but you get the point. What I'm trying to say is that under the right circumstances, Obito could change. it might be linked with the still unexplained death of Rin. Of course, taht's probably not the ONLY reason he went evil. (Well, then again, Orochimaru went nuts just because his parents died, but still!!!) Not to mention that it would be more climactic. Tobi sounds like someone who has experienced alot of pain in his life and has truly lost alot. Almost as if he were once someone good but went evil. Look at this quote here:
> Kumo soukai
> 
> "There is no such thing as hope! The concept of hope is nothing more than giving up, a word that holds no true meaning."
> ...



How can Obito feel anything when he was crushed under a boulder?


----------



## Talis (May 22, 2012)

Easley said:


> I think the art in that panel is pretty crap to be honest. Plain and lacking in detail. I wouldn't use it as proof of anything, except how not to draw.
> 
> I'm glad you called them wrinkles though and not scars!


It's scars his other face side doesn't have it, clearly confirmed.


----------



## Talis (May 22, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> How can Obito feel anything when he was crushed under a boulder?


His head wasn't crush the rock was resting on it clearly.


----------



## Talis (May 22, 2012)

Easley said:


> I think the art in that panel is pretty crap to be honest. Plain and lacking in detail. I wouldn't use it as proof of anything, except how not to draw.
> 
> I'm glad you called them wrinkles though and not scars!


Disagree with the facts, disagree with the pic itself, you will regret it after his revealment.


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> lol, Tobi=Kagami?
> Hmm lol.
> If that's the case, maybe Kagami was Madara's spy?



Perhaps. It could seem likely, though Madara might of lasted slightly longer after Tobirama died, to tell Kagami to take over the mission.

We need to remember Kagami was only _assumed_ to be dead and like I've listed other points which does make it likely it could've been him.

To be honest it would make sense, rather than revive a little boy called Obito and use his little broken body to create a mastermind (lol).


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> lol, Tobi=Kagami?
> Hmm lol.
> If that's the case, maybe Kagami was Madara's spy?



Perhaps. It could seem likely, though Madara might of lasted slightly longer after Tobirama died, to tell Kagami to take over the mission.

We need to remember Kagami was only _assumed_ to be dead and like I've listed other points which does make it likely it could've been him.

To be honest it would make sense, rather than revive a little boy called Obito and use his little broken body to create a mastermind (lol). Maybe his body was used for black Zetsu for example or perhaps Kagami was assume dead but was actually injured so he took body parts of Obito.


----------



## auem (May 22, 2012)

McLover said:


> ok didnt consider the wars on the timeline, so nagato met jiraya in the 2nd ninja world war when nagato was a kid about how old 10? and it was during the third ninja war when yahiko died (about 15yo?) and when minato was known as konoha's yellow flash, i assume tobi's strike was at the end of the war ? so i'd say minato's still some years older than nagato
> correct me if im mistaken plz, i just woke up lol



we don't know how long 3rd war lasted..it is only said to be 'prolonged'...minato became hokage after war ended....so all we can do is guesswork...

only info that we have is minato graduated from academy at the age of 10..
we know minato then went to jiraiya's care(memories during last moments of hiruzen sarutobi)...
now by look,when jiraiya left the rain's trio,they were around 12-14(i chose higher because they looked like present day naruto,sasuke)

so when jiraiya returned to konoha,minato was at most 10(if he went under jiraiya vey soon)...thus nagato must be older than minato...

i believe the war lasted nearly a decade and hence age gap is 7-10 years...yahiko event happening very early in the war...


----------



## Raventhal (May 22, 2012)

Facts about Tobi.

1. He knows life story of Madara and his plan.  So he would have to be involved with Madara.
2. He has wrinkles.  I Narutoverse it seems 60+ is wrinkle age.  Nagato/Sannin don't have wrinkles and they're 40's-50's.  Barring Tsunade who is said to look a lot older than what she is likely due to using her regen.
3. He had to convince Itachi he was Madara.  Likely he had to have shown him his EMS to make it believable.  I believe Itachi said there was another MS but maybe it was just another sharingan user. 
4. His hair type matches a few folks but hair can be cut.
5. The left side of his face was hidden on purpose.  

Evidence that Tobi has MS or EMS.  His space time jutsu uses no hand signs and is likely doujutsu based.  Normal Sharingan has shown no ability to do this.  Obito's left eye does have a s/t doujutsu within it's MS.  It said MS is used or designed to control Kurama and Tobi can control Kurama.  Itachi trained with Tobi and believed he was Madara.

To me this leaves Kagami, Elder Son and Izuna.  Izuna and Kagami are the right ages. Elder Son maybe as well.

Kagami status is unknown and would be around the same age as Danzo.  The Elder Son and Izuna are likely dead.  Izuna was likely in his 20's-30's when he died.  Elder Son who knows could have died of old age or in battle.  So how could Izuna or Elder Son be around now?  Well as we know Madara obtained the Rinnegan before his death.  The Rinnegan as we known has the ability to raise people from the dead.  If he raised the Elder Son or Izuna before his death he could.

Support for Kagami basically comes down to being the right age and being around with Danzo/Hurizen team and one of two out of that played no role in the series.

Elder Son support is knowledge of SoSP and Madara.  Also the S/T transportation could a result of his perfect eye doujutsu.

Izuna's support is knowledge of Madara and Izuna.  Izuna lacked eyes at death.  If he was brought back by Madara and given harvested eyes.  It would make sense if he took Obito's eye to have S/T doujutsu.   

Tobi could just as easily not be a Uchiha with evidence of his covered eyes.  Zetzu based or mix because of his melting and goo limbs.  

There likely is no way to prove who is he is.


----------



## McLover (May 22, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> How do you know though there aren't one pair? The pair Nagato had were still Madara's if he gave him his old MS to awaken them, without which he wouldn't of had Rinnegan at all.
> 
> Also about Madara's life span, we can't prove he was alive during that meeting with Itachi, or not. Perhaps he was, and had awakened his Rinnegan, I would see no reason why he wouldn't if he was able to take Hashirama's cells after the battle. Perhaps after Kyuubi's attack/Minato's fight he died, and during this time left Tobi incharge, to look after Nagato, and collect Bijuu.
> 
> ...



there aren't 2 pairs (4 eyes), otherwise tobi wouldnt have fought konan for it.
and for someone here who claimed madara/tobi were looking for nagato and didnt find him lol tobi always knew where nagato is, and so did madara if alive. do you think someone would wait for that moment for so long -naruto's birth- wouldn't know where nagato is? especially when he was the one who formed akatsuki ^^
as for the edit, madara meant "revive me like this" as in edo tensei and not the rebirth jutsu thingie that nagato used that tobi felt betrayed when it was gone



MissinqNin said:


> X
> 
> Also we need to stop this "His eyebrows" don't match crap, because if Tobi has aged (Which it does look like) his appearance would have changed slightly from when he was in his prime age.



i agree, although his eye lids look so much like an old madara, however i disagree about tobi being kagami


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

McLover said:


> there aren't 2 pairs (4 eyes), otherwise tobi wouldnt have fought konan for it.
> and for someone here who claimed madara/tobi were looking for nagato and didnt find him lol tobi always knew where nagato is, and so did madara if alive. do you think someone would wait for that moment for so long -naruto's birth- wouldn't know where nagato is? especially when he was the one who formed akatsuki ^^



It was Tobi who gave Yahiko the idea to form Akatsuki in the first place, he influenced them. What could of been the reason Tobi took Nagato's eyes and not Madara's ones is that if there were two pairs of Rinnegans, Madara's ones would stay with him, and Tobi would take Nagato's after he would've revived Madara, but he didn't, so Tobi took them back.

I think Kagami fits, unlike the others where there is a lot of complex guess work, and missing gaps. I don't see many gaps with Kagami, as it all could've been possible as his age fits, his motive fits, his matching appearance to Madara fits.

Also the 'Madara' who met Itachi, might of been the real one, then after the fight with Minato soon after the real one died, leaving Tobi/Kagami this mission, which is why Itachi must of suspected him when he joined Akatsuki.


*EDIT:* I have just had another thought.

Notice how Madara can use both Sharingan and Rinnegan, by switching back and forth, which tells us that obviously he is an Uchiha, which has Senju cells and naturally awakened Rinnegan.

So baring this in mind, Tobi should've been able to awaken Rinnegan naturally as he is 'supposedly' an Uchiha and has Senju cells (Zetsu), yet he had to rip out Nagato's eyes, and place them in his own, which is why he has one Rinnegan and one sharingan, because he can't switch back and forth, which could mean quite definitely that he is not an Uchiha, or he doesn't have Senju cells, but also considering he could just take cells from Yamato/Zetsu, and obtain those missing Senju cells, tells us that he is not an Uchiha quite possibly, otherwise he would've been able to deactivate his Sharingan, as well as awaken Rinnegan naturally himself. If that also means that he didn't awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan for that reason, that tells us about Kakashi, also a non-Uchiha, that he must've got his Mangekyou because Obito may of awoken it just before dying under the rock(?)

The more I think about these points, the more confusing it gets. There is barely any logic to it.


----------



## McLover (May 22, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> It was Tobi who gave Yahiko the idea to form Akatsuki in the first place, he influenced them. What could of been the reason Tobi took Nagato's eyes and not Madara's ones is that if there were two pairs of Rinnegans, Madara's ones would stay with him, and Tobi would take Nagato's after he would've revived Madara, but he didn't, so Tobi took them back.
> 
> I think Kagami fits, unlike the others where there is a lot of complex guess work, and missing gaps. I don't see many gaps with Kagami, as it all could've been possible as his age fits, his motive fits, his matching appearance to Madara fits.
> 
> ...



one can only process his eyes ones, it would be ridiculous and ironically funny if one get rinnegan, gives it away, implants new sharingans again and process it to another rinnegan. 
tobi can't get rinnegans because 1.he's weak 2.he already awakened his rinnegan
-he already has senju 
-it doesn't matter if he isn't an uchiha (cause some claim nagato was given a MS so how could he get rinnegan when he's senju and not uchiha?)
so i see no other than the above reasons to why he didnt get a rinnegan himself. with that been said that he already awakened a rinnegan i could add that as a more proof for my "theory" of tobi being somewhere somehow madara or a shell or whatever it is i dont know anymore cause a bit confused about the whole thing atm
when did madara switch his rinnegan back to a sharingan? and why we never seen nagato with normal eyes after his rinnegan activation

edit: oh, and if it was tobi who gave yahiko the idea to form akatsuki (more like use him for the purpose of collecting the bijuus) then how could he be obito lmao

edit2: tobi uses 2 different eyes cause he needs rinnegan to use gedo mazo and eyes shared link for the junchuriki hosts, and the sharingan for his space/time migration and to cast a genjutsu or control the bijuus which he had a hard one with that


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

McLover said:


> one can only process his eyes ones, it would be ridiculous and ironically funny if one get rinnegan, gives it away, implants new sharingans again and process it to another rinnegan.
> tobi can't get rinnegans because 1.he's weak 2.he already awakened his rinnegan
> -he already has senju
> -it doesn't matter if he isn't an uchiha (cause some claim nagato was given a MS so how could he get rinnegan when he's senju and not uchiha?)
> ...




We don't know if he already has 'Awakened' his Rinnegan before, or if he just got an MS deactivated eye from Madara to implant into Nagato, and pretended it was his as he pretended to be Madara (If he didn't pretend it was his, his cover would've been blown to as of why he took it), though to an extent I believe he may of awakened it as he knew Konan would die and no one else would find out, so perhaps he was telling the truth. 
In the anime you also see indications that Nagato is partially blind before he awakens Rinnegan as he tips over some China pots, just before his mum/dad get killed, this may also be the reason why his hairs always infront of his face. 

Also about Madara's switching ability, he I believe said himself he could switch back and forth when he revealed his Rinnegan to the Kages, I believe. 

In general, I admitt and perhaps you will see it too, there are dead ends in almost all current standing candidates, some more than others, but we'll probably see what Kishi has in plan to make it believable.

I think the scope of theories which have been made, or are being made as we speak, may turn out way too far out, and we're missing obvious things. Just something to think about.

And just by the way, I'm pretty neutral with who I believe Tobi is, I don't support one thing blindly, I am just trying to single out candidates and find who could actually match best. Yet I still think Kagami could fit, possibly Izuna and maybe in some fucked up/Mutant-Body part also Obito. I just don't see the Elder Son have anything to do with this to be honest, I don't think he'd be sad enough to have a vendetta for all these countless of years.


----------



## Kiete no Jutsu (May 22, 2012)

I like the idea of kagami as tobi it pars izuna. I can't choose but one thing mystify me why would tobi give the rinnegan to nagato just to take it back?


----------



## McLover (May 22, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> We don't know if he already has 'Awakened' his Rinnegan before, or if he just got an MS deactivated eye from Madara to implant into Nagato, and pretended it was his as he pretended to be Madara (If he didn't pretend it was his, his cover would've been blown to as of why he took it), though to an extent I believe he may of awakened it as he knew Konan would die and no one else would find out, so perhaps he was telling the truth.
> In the anime you also see indications that Nagato is partially blind before he awakens Rinnegan as he tips over some China pots, just before his mum/dad get killed, this may also be the reason why his hairs always infront of his face.
> 
> Also about Madara's switching ability, he I believe said himself he could switch back and forth when he revealed his Rinnegan to the Kages, I believe.
> ...



it makes me sick to my stomach when i read obito in the text !!
and you said in your previous post that it couldn't be an uchiha and now you say it's izuna or kagami (both uchiha) so wtf? 
read my past post edit


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

Kiete no Jutsu said:


> I like the idea of kagami as tobi it pars izuna. I can't choose but one thing mystify me why would tobi give the rinnegan to nagato just to take it back?




Nagato was originally apart of the plan as proven by Madara Uchiha when awakened under Edo Tensei by Kabuto, when he said something along the lines of "So.. Nagato's finally grown up". This indicates that Nagato was supposed to revive Madara, but didn't because of Naruto's speech, and became good and revived all the dead Ninja of the Leaf instead.

Now as we've seen from Nagato you die when you use the rebirth jutsu, perhaps thats why Tobi didn't revive Madara after obtaining the Rinnegan, or only Nagato could do it because he was an Uzumaki and Uzumaki have all these 'Life source' and healing abilities in their bloodline, which could be why Nagato was the chosen one to get the Rinnegan from Madara, at the hands of Tobi.

Impartially, I agree with you, Kagami being Tobi does seem the most Non-Artificial possibility, without use of extended life jutsu and so on which some claim. However I am sure he has Zetsu implanted into him as well.



McLover said:


> it makes me sick to my stomach when i read obito in the text !!
> and you said in your previous post that it couldn't be an uchiha and now you say it's izuna or kagami (both uchiha) so wtf?
> read my past post edit



As I said earlier, I'm not really supporting any theory specifically, I'm just trying to shoot down current ones to find the most fitting one, and if I was speaking impartially now, I'd say Elder son is not a possibility, Izuna may be, and Kagami also. The only reason I say Obito is I know there might be a "Kishi moment" and he decides to involve him in some messed up way. Out of all of them, my current belief from what I see, is Kagami, as unlike out of all of them, he was _assumed_ dead, not _confirmed_ dead.



McLover said:


> edit: oh, and if it was tobi who gave yahiko the idea to form akatsuki (more like use him for the purpose of collecting the bijuus) then how could he be obito lmao
> 
> edit2: tobi uses 2 different eyes cause he needs rinnegan to use gedo mazo and eyes shared link for the junchuriki hosts, and the sharingan for his space/time migration and to cast a genjutsu or control the bijuus which he had a hard one with that




For your first question, Yahiko would've been approached during his late teens/mid 20s, as Jiraiya left, and some time after Tobi would've saw it was safe to approach them, and probably gave him the idea. Now we also know Nagato and Co. may of been a few years older than Minato, so during the time Akatsuki was actually formed, Obito may of just of died, however I don't care about Obito - If I was Madara I wouldn't want a weak, mangled little boy as my trusted partner, as well as there are a lot of age assumptions in this, as even in my lines above, but as closely as I could possibly make them.

For your second edit, have you got any evidence of that? Such as a print, though I do think that is likely.


----------



## Punished Pathos (May 22, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Perhaps. It could seem likely, though Madara might of lasted slightly longer after Tobirama died, to tell Kagami to take over the mission.
> 
> We need to remember Kagami was only _assumed_ to be dead and like I've listed other points which does make it likely it could've been him.
> 
> To be honest it would make sense, rather than revive a little boy called Obito and use his little broken body to create a mastermind (lol). Maybe his body was used for black Zetsu for example or perhaps Kagami was assume dead but was actually injured so he took body parts of Obito.



lol, I can't see Madara using Obito in any way. Unless Madara has a crystal ball that lets him see the hidden potential of Uchiha Clan members. 
My money is on Izuna or Kagami. I like the chances of Tobi being Kagami, as Kagami means mirror. (Acting as "Madara") The age would be good enough for him to know everything he has displayed. I'm iffy towards thoughts of Kagami being Madara's spy though. I only came up with that because Kabuto is one himself so... Naruto can have a brothers theme and a Spy theme right?
NOTE: After Tobi said that "I'm one" speech, one can guess that he went through a lot of pain in the past.
Tobi lost everything in the past or something along those lines.
He should at least have an MS...


----------



## Easley (May 22, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Disagree with the facts, disagree with the pic itself, you will regret it after his revealment.


What "facts" do you mean? People have spent 6+ years arguing about Tobi's identity and are still no closer to having facts. Kishi has kept Tobi a complete mystery. He even tore up the Tobi = Madara reveal, which was a mistake in my opinion. 

S/T jutsu and intangibility are definitely his 'trademark' moves. I'd focus on these.

Zetsu goo, pocket dimension, and eye collection are other mysteries that  need answers. I don't conclude anything from this vague info though.


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> lol, I can't see Madara using Obito in any way. Unless Madara has a crystal ball that lets him see the hidden potential of Uchiha Clan members.
> My money is on Izuna or Kagami. I like the chances of Tobi being Kagami, as Kagami means mirror. (Acting as "Madara") The age would be good enough for him to know everything he has displayed. I'm iffy towards thoughts of Kagami being Madara's spy though. I only came up with that because Kabuto is one himself so... Naruto can have a brothers theme and a Spy theme right?
> NOTE: After Tobi said that "I'm one" speech, one can guess that he went through a lot of pain in the past.
> Tobi lost everything in the past or something along those lines.
> He should at least have an MS...



Kagami could've just been a spy for Madara when he was with the Leaf Shinobi, in Tobirama's squad, after that he was assumed dead, where he could've just faked it and went forth with his plans. About the eyes, I don't exactly know the actual reasons to this, unless Kagami was just never able to awaken it, or injured himself and had Zetsu implanted into him which prevented him from using Mangekyou Sharingan. 

Kagami's name is also a clue - "Mirror", but then Tobi's name means "Kite", so how does that really relate? Perhaps mirror, so as in copying Madara, and kite, as in following Madara/Not stranding him. Also how Tobi got his name could've been as his Sensei was Tobirama as I said before.


----------



## Escargon (May 22, 2012)

Tobi said he fought Hashirama. Why the fuck would he lie to Kabuto and how the fuck did he get the DNA?

Imagine if the shadowed image of Hashirama slaying Madara is Tobi himself with a mask on and Madara gave him a reward that saved his life after it. Lol.


----------



## kisuke55 (May 22, 2012)

tobi is the sage of six paths,he used the kyubi to make the world peaceful,it didnt work so now hes gonna use the eternal tysukiomi


----------



## Kahvehane (May 22, 2012)

I wouldn't be surprised if Tobi is a character we've already been introduced to... I mean, aside from the obvious fanservice, what was the point of Kakashi Gaiden in between parts 1 and 2? And yes, you know exactly what I'm hinting at by bringing up those chapters. I really don't want it to be Obito; everything about it would be asinine. But at the same time, everything I've seen from this series so far tells me that there's a very strong possibility that Tobi will be Obito.

I just hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Tobi said he fought Hashirama. Why the fuck would he lie to Kabuto and how the fuck did he get the DNA?
> 
> Imagine if the shadowed image of Hashirama slaying Madara is Tobi himself with a mask on and Madara gave him a reward that saved his life after it. Lol.



Have you been keeping up with the Manga at all? If Tobi was _impersonating_ Madara, of course he would say he fought Hashirama, and like I said, Tobi and Madara have an obvious link as seen in the last few Mangas, so Madara gave Tobi zetsu possibly, or Hashirama's cells alone, and Tobi created Zetsu, and because Zetsu is able to record memories, Tobi knew the details.



kisuke55 said:


> tobi is the sage of six paths,he used the kyubi to make the world peaceful,it didnt work so now hes gonna use the eternal tysukiomi



What have you sniffed?



Light Artist said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Tobi is a character we've already been introduced to... I mean, aside from the obvious fanservice, what was the point of Kakashi Gaiden in between parts 1 and 2? And yes, you know exactly what I'm hinting at by bringing up those chapters. I really don't want it to be Obito; everything about it would be asinine. But at the same time, everything I've seen from this series so far tells me that there's a very strong possibility that Tobi will be Obito.
> 
> I just hope I'm wrong.



I do too, I just find it a bit pathetic to be a young guy like Obito for a character like Tobi, who is supposed to be a genius/wise. I'm sure it's not a manipulated Obito because his jutsu still wouldn't be as powerful as Tobi's with his body and limits to the jutsu he knew, and if it was a vessel, it wouldn't really be a character, it'd just be a ripp off using Zetsu and a body same goes for Izuna, which is why I'm hoping it turns out to be Kagami, as he's the only one not confirmed dead, but only by guess, and there can be a lot of back story to get him to fit in as the character, as a lot of him is still unknown.


----------



## NW (May 22, 2012)

Man, Izuna is slowly becoming more and more of a possibility in my mind. Well, the only really plausible Tobi candidates left are Izuna and Obito. No one else makes sense. And, don't come to me with that Kagami shit. You know it's not him. You people just don't like/believe in any of the other theories, so you're all going to some irrelevant little fodder character and saying he's Tobi. Sure, you'll all say, "Well, there's nothing to disprove the theory." Well, of COURSE there's nothing to disprove it, there doesn't need to be because Kagami barely appeared in this manga! Kagami's eyeshape does NOT match Tobi's. Neither do his eyelids or eyebrows as a matter of fact. Not to mention, he's just way too random. Kishi wouldn't be so stupid as to make this guy Tobi. He's barely even a character! Trust and believe, all this suspense will most certainly NOT add up to Tobi being someone barely anyone will remember/recognize.


----------



## McLover (May 22, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Nagato was originally apart of the plan as proven by Madara Uchiha when awakened under Edo Tensei by Kabuto, when he said something along the lines of "So.. Nagato's finally grown up". This indicates that Nagato was supposed to revive Madara, but didn't because of Naruto's speech, and became good and revived all the dead Ninja of the Leaf instead.
> 
> Now as we've seen from Nagato you die when you use the rebirth jutsu, perhaps thats why Tobi didn't revive Madara after obtaining the Rinnegan, or only Nagato could do it because he was an Uzumaki and Uzumaki have all these 'Life source' and healing abilities in their bloodline, which could be why Nagato was the chosen one to get the Rinnegan from Madara, at the hands of Tobi.
> 
> ...



well said, so then if by the time yahiko died obito also died, there is no way obito is tobi as the last already noticed yahiko and his dreams or peace and becoming a god and forming akatsuki. and if you say that nagato is a bit older than minato, then at some point nagato was a kid when minato wasnt even born, so how come minato's student is tobi when tobi have the rinnegan to nagato? do you get where i'm going? 

and no i have no proof other than manga, he is controlling the bijuu with his sharingan like he controlled the kyuubi @ minato's birth, and using the rinnegan to control the bodies of the jinchurikis and using the gedo mazo, i have no idea what their plan really is so i dont know what more he (tobi) intends to do with the shari-nnegan


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Man, Izuna is slowly becoming more and more of a possibility in my mind. Well, the only really plausible Tobi candidates left are Izuna and Obito. No one else makes sense. And, don't come to me with that Kagami shit. You know it's not him. You people just don't like/believe in any of the other theories, so you're all going to some irrelevant little fodder character and saying he's Tobi. Sure, you'll all say, "Well, there's nothing to disprove the theory." Well, of COURSE there's nothing to disprove it, there doesn't need to be because Kagami barely appeared in this manga! Kagami's eyeshape does NOT match Tobi's. Neither do his eyelids or eyebrows as a matter of fact. Not to mention, he's just way too random. Kishi wouldn't be so stupid as to make this guy Tobi. He's barely even a character! Trust and believe, all this suspense will most certainly NOT add up to Tobi being someone barely anyone will remember/recognize.




You and your Obito shit, how the hell is a concious Obito's body able to even handle jutsu to even compete against Minato, it's almost obvious it's not him, the only possibility is that Obito is nothing but a vessel, but as I said before, I believe Tobi is not a vessel, as that will kill his character, I believe it is a living and breathing character, and Kagami made sense. Why is it that Kagami is in one of the best squads Konnoha ever saw (Tobirama's) and there is not a lot of back story on him and he is apparently assumed dead? I'm sure we'll find out more about him, and I'm sure it stands between Izuna and Kagami to be honest, unless Kishi wants to do his random writing moments and make it Obito, which I doubt, saying this respectfully; look get it through your brain, that Obito's theory was made on his whole eye being on which side, that is one of the weakest arguments I've seen, as it still doesn't show motive, and don't come to me with all this under a jutsu crap, most Uchiha can actually detect that, and as I said, Obito's time difference, age to even support such power just doesn't add up. Kagami has perfect motive, his father being killed in action against Hashirama, he also has unexplained Sharingan abilities, thus has a big possibility it could be him. 
Madara wouldn't want some guy like Obito which is so close to just a fodder being his long term partner, like Tobi, which had to plot for years, it has to be someone at at least Hiruzen's level, which is why I suspect Kagami, as he could've also been a spy whilst he was at Konnoha. The difference is no one really knew what happened to Kagami, and why he was assumed dead, whereas Izuna was confirmed dead by Madara. I'm sure Madara, being Izuna's brother would let him rest in peace, and wouldn't just ressurect him for his own use, and even if he was ressurected, when Izuna died he was in his 20s or so, and would be pretty young, around middle age right now, if he was Tobi, whereas Tobi looks more like the age of Hiruzen / Danzo.

I just want Kishimoto to reveal it seriously, and hope it's not Obito so all these Zombified Obito theories end. I've tried and tried to put it together, and it does not work, as well as being a weak vessel, whereas Madara would've had much better choices, such as Kagami which would've been alive at the time anyway, after Hashirama's battle.

Until you come up with actual valid argument to why it cannot be Kagami, you can't just deny it, as we haven't got enough information about him, and he may even be alive according to information.


----------



## Talis (May 22, 2012)

''Until you come up with valid points for Kagami'', so far i've read only '' he was strong because he was in Tobirama's squad, he might be Madara's grand grandson, or more of these assumptions.
Orange 1 eye holed mask resembles to Obito, fact.
Crushed body, boom fact.
S/T resembling to Kakashis boom fact.
Smilar names TobiTobi, in Japanese spelled backwards ''Bito'' fact.
Kakashis year got delayed thrice and will happen for sure this year. boom fact
Tobi has a messed up left face while his right isn't full of bags. fact
A non Uchiha, Kakashi randomly awakening MS without revealing any info about it. fact
KAKASHI IS FIGHTING AGAINST TOBI, BOOM FACT AND A CRITICAL HIT.

And Kishi even said that if he will show us Kakashis face without mask that it wil happen in the manga itself and not in a cover.
Kishi already litteraly spoiled/hinted Tobi being Obito so freaking ridiculous many time. (2012 interview also)
Tobi and Kakashi will end up in a clash and ripping of both of their mask.


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

loool3 said:


> ''Until you come up with valid points for Kagami'', so far i've read only '' he was strong because he was in Tobirama's squad, he might be Madara's grand grandson, or more of these assumptions.
> Orange 1 eye holed mask resembles to Obito, fact.
> Crushed body, boom fact.
> S/T resembling to Kakashis boom fact.
> ...




All you have for Obito, is "Oh my god, he still had the same eye on the side Tobi has it, and Oooh the colour of his mask is the same as Obito's goggles".

There is nothing about what drove his motive, and you know for a fact, Obito was/is not strong enough to mentor to the extent Tobi has with people like Yahiko, Nagato and Sasuke as well as even possess the same skills and experience as Tobi. You only have visual appearances, such as his eye, his mask colour and his name, it is so obvious it seems like an easy throw-off theory, set intentionally. Also with your "Boom facts", if Obito was crushed, he obviously died, and Zetsu wouldn't of given him some platform shoes to wear you know, being he would of been noticably smaller. Obito didn't even know Madara personally, whereas Kagami did. You really think even if Obito was alive it would be him, someone who never even experienced the battle of Hashirama, which Kagami most likely saw, and had a lot more information about. Based on facts, Obito was _confirmed _deceased, whereas Kagami was only _assumed_ deceased, your ignoring these little facts.
Also the constant "Kakashi's year" how do you even know that is related to Obito directly, maybe it will just be to explain more about his Mangekyou and it's origins, and perhaps Rin was the reason he got it. 
Also actually, Tobi's face on the right hand wrinkles/bags under his eyes on the right hand side, and the left hasn't been shown so don't judge it, it can easily be Zetsu as seen in his actual fights with Minato / When he repaired his arm after the fight with Konan. 
It doesn't matter if Kakashi is fighting Tobi, perhaps if it is Kagami, he may just know something about Obito, as he might of collected his Sharingan like he did with a lot of other Uchiha, perhaps his left side of the face is Obito's face even, who knows, but don't start lashing out "Boom facts" when they're no facts at all, except for really obvious ones which don't really mean anything at this point. The S/T jutsu is different to Kakashi's, which is more of a "Chop people up Jutsu", whereas Tobi's is more like a travelling jutsu. A lot of the Uchiha skills are known to have time related jutsu's, and use of space to execute the jutsu, it again isn't clear indication of it being Obito.
Also Tobi hints at some sort of relation to Danzo, as if he knew him personally, which leads me to believe again it can be Kagami.

Perhaps you're wearing Obito orange goggles, and your not seeing other theories, but your not showing any real argument which invalidates their existance, and only use basic information which any person can spot without any proper speculation actually, for Obito. I'm sure Kishimoto hasn't kept Tobi's identity from us for these many years, to just reveal it was Obito, knowing he made it so obvious with the side his eyes are on and mask colour. Also you say Obito-Tobi, as the names are similar, but Kagami could of got his name from his Sensei partially? (Tobi)rama. We can always play the name game, but what counts is motive really, and skill to actually uphold such a task.

If that will be the case, we'll see his downfall in writing to actually cover his identity up.


----------



## NW (May 22, 2012)

*Oh, the Irony..............*



MissinqNin said:


> You and your Obito shit, how the hell is a concious Obito's body able to even handle jutsu to even compete against Minato, it's almost obvious it's not him, the only possibility is that Obito is nothing but a vessel, but as I said before, I believe Tobi is not a vessel, as that will kill his character, I believe it is a living and breathing character, and Kagami made sense. Why is it that Kagami is in one of the best squads Konnoha ever saw (Tobirama's) and there is not a lot of back story on him and he is apparently assumed dead? I'm sure we'll find out more about him, and I'm sure it stands between Izuna and Kagami to be honest, unless Kishi wants to do his random writing moments and make it Obito, which I doubt, saying this respectfully; look get it through your brain, that Obito's theory was made on his whole eye being on which side, that is one of the weakest arguments I've seen, as it still doesn't show motive, and don't come to me with all this under a jutsu crap, most Uchiha can actually detect that, and as I said, Obito's time difference, age to even support such power just doesn't add up. Kagami has perfect motive, his father being killed in action against Hashirama, he also has unexplained Sharingan abilities, thus has a big possibility it could be him.
> Madara wouldn't want some guy like Obito which is so close to just a fodder being his long term partner, like Tobi, which had to plot for years, it has to be someone at at least Hiruzen's level, which is why I suspect Kagami, as he could've also been a spy whilst he was at Konnoha. The difference is no one really knew what happened to Kagami, and why he was assumed dead, whereas Izuna was confirmed dead by Madara. I'm sure Madara, being Izuna's brother would let him rest in peace, and wouldn't just ressurect him for his own use, and even if he was ressurected, when Izuna died he was in his 20s or so, and would be pretty young, around middle age right now, if he was Tobi, whereas Tobi looks more like the age of Hiruzen / Danzo.
> 
> I just want Kishimoto to reveal it seriously, and hope it's not Obito so all these Zombified Obito theories end. I've tried and tried to put it together, and it does not work, as well as being a weak vessel, whereas Madara would've had much better choices, such as Kagami which would've been alive at the time anyway, after Hashirama's battle.
> ...



F*CKING SERIOUSLY?! Kagami was NOT Madara's son. Where the hell did you come up with that?! What do you mean, "unexplained sharingan abilities?" We only saw him and a normal three tomoe sharingan. Why do you just automatically assume that he has hidden powers or something? You're saying that Obito is fodder when YOU'RE the one supporting Tobi being a character that only appeared in one chapter, and on top of that, he didn't do shit in the one chapter he appeared in besides sit there and suggest what to do in their current situation. How is that suspicious? You clearly don't see how Tobi being Kagami would be bad writing. At least Obito would be someone we know and sympathize with. It fits with Kishi's villain theme and is greatly supported by Japanese Mythology, which Kishi greatly bases his manga off. No, I'm not gonna say he's under a jutsu. It's better if he's doing all this of his own free will. Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto back in the day, thus, an evil Obito would be an exact opposite to Naruto and would make a great final antagonist for the series. Plus, Kakashi is there. Of course when a masked man's identity is revealed, a person has to be there that recognizes his true identity, otherwise, what's the point?


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> F*CKING SERIOUSLY?! Kagami was NOT Madara's son. Where the hell did you come up with that?! What do you mean, "unexplained sharingan abilities?" We only saw him and a normal three tomoe sharingan. Why do you just automatically assume that he has hidden powers or something? You're saying that Obito is fodder when YOU'RE the one supporting Tobi being a character that only appeared in one chapter, and on top of that, he didn't do shit in the one chapter he appeared in besides sit there and suggest what to do in their current situation. How is that suspicious? You clearly don't see how Tobi being Kagami would be bad writing. At least Obito would be someone we know and sympathize with. It fits with Kishi's villain theme and is greatly supported by Japanese Mythology, which Kishi greatly bases his manga off. No, I'm not gonna say he's under a jutsu. Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto back in the day, thus, an evil Obito would be an exact opposite to Naruto and would make a great final antagonist for the series. Plus, Kakashi is there. Of course when am masked man's identity is revealed, a person has to be there that recognizes his true identity, otherwise, what's the point?




First of all, calm your Obito hormones. Second of all, are you blind? Or just close your eyes to every other theory other than Obito's. The reason it is believed quite heavily that Kagami can be Madara's son is because of age range, and obvious facial qualities, as well as the squad he was in, cannot be coincidence. Also if Kishi did introduce him, why not add a bit more detail? Most likely he'd pass as a fodder, whereas you know for a fact, nearly every Uchiha that we've come to know, has always had some involvement / affect on the plot. 

Yeah, we don't know his Sharingan powers, also you do know that Tobi has no MS seen as of yet, and being we were introduced to Kagami, he could be a possible candidate. He was also on Tobirama's squad during Tobirama's last battle, and you know for a fact everyone on his team possessed excellent skill. He has the setting in time perfect to be a candidate to help Madara, and if he is the son of Madara, perfectly good motive.

What do you have on Obito? He is close to a fodder, some guy who just died, under a damn rock, I'm sure Madara doesn't give two feces about Obito, who had next to nothing in the talent which Tobi possesses today. You are going to say he is some vessel now? Yes it's a possibility, but that's a bigger killer than Kagami or Izuna. Also another thing, if it was Obito, him just being manipulating in a jutsu or even just verbally would be the most retarded thing which has happened to this manga yet, as it would just make Tobi a failed Villain, someone influenced, not someone with a mind of their own. A second Nagato, on a larger scale. 

Your other argument is Kakashi, and what if he is there? Like I said, Tobi probably has information about Obito, which will probably lead to what happened to Rin as well as how Kakashi got his Sharingan. Obito's theory has just tried to shove it's way through facts, based on a damn eye ball being on the same side as Tobi. I'm sure if Kishimoto was going to make it that simple, he'd just reveal it in an interview, and not keep it from us for years.

It's obvious you blindly love Obito, thus stay out of a debate if you can't follow it through impartially, just sit and wait until the man behind the mask is revealed.


----------



## McLover (May 22, 2012)

tobiuchiha111 and loool3 are just a troll with a theory based on appearances and has no true manga-based explanation other than their low quality drawings of the left and right side not being wrinkled, just like i can say: 
was about to explode
oh look, tobi's hair is different in the 2 pictures its more spikey in the middle pic that means MAYBE he can grow hair or MAYBE and PROBABLY do a jutsu with his hair to change from short to long 
omfg are you retarded? 
and wtf????? srsly?????? : "You people just don't like/believe in any of the other theories, so you're all going to some irrelevant little fodder character and saying he's Tobi"
how can you even say that to missing nin?  look at yourself ironically ignoring others' theories and forcing yours and you can't even discuss and prove wrong what i already crushed in your theory based on haircuts and eyebrows when you yourself say the characters changed 180 degrees even sakura cut her hair so ????? 
so go on plz and ignore this post plz cause it's completely useless discussing with you as you aren't open minded to other thoughts other than your wrong unproven thoughts trying to be smart by the obvious facts, oh yes, orange color mask and the hair, maybe it's naruto cause he wears oragne, and it's OBVIOUS he dyed his hair black to look more like uchiha
oh plz ..jesus christ!


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

I just see a hand full of people who actually care about posting here now and some of those are just fanboys, and I really see this as a Tennis game now, mainly between Izuna - Kagami vs Obito. I can't be bothered explaining things I've been explaining for five pages now, over and over again. Until there isn't some real constructive debate, I'm out.

Lets hope Kishi reveals the identity of Tobi soon.


----------



## Talis (May 22, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> All you have for Obito, is "Oh my god, he still had the same eye on the side Tobi has it, and Oooh the colour of his mask is the same as Obito's goggles".
> 
> There is nothing about what drove his motive, and you know for a fact, Obito was/is not strong enough to mentor to the extent Tobi has with people like Yahiko, Nagato and Sasuke as well as even possess the same skills and experience as Tobi. You only have visual appearances, such as his eye, his mask colour and his name, it is so obvious it seems like an easy throw-off theory, set intentionally. Also with your "Boom facts", if Obito was crushed, he obviously died, and Zetsu wouldn't of given him some platform shoes to wear you know, being he would of been noticably smaller. Obito didn't even know Madara personally, whereas Kagami did. You really think even if Obito was alive it would be him, someone who never even experienced the battle of Hashirama, which Kagami most likely saw, and had a lot more information about. Based on facts, Obito was _confirmed _deceased, whereas Kagami was only _assumed_ deceased, your ignoring these little facts.
> Also the constant "Kakashi's year" how do you even know that is related to Obito directly, maybe it will just be to explain more about his Mangekyou and it's origins, and perhaps Rin was the reason he got it.
> ...


lol, aren't you the same troll which disagreed on Tobito having changed his personality as nearl 75% of the characters did?
So whats your point anyways?
He had no motive?
Ur trolling to much around it's Kishi which is writting the manga and not you.
It's the same bullcrap Madara boys are telling around when i say ''thats up too Kishi to reveal'' then they come up with lame excuses like that it ain't possible that he had no motives and more shit and that i am counting to much on the writter.

So now i'll say something; When Tobi was introduced could you have guess that it was Madara?
Maybe.
Could you have known about his motives?
No Kishi simply came up with them like the moon eyes plan and many more things.
If someone would have said Tobi is doing these things to collect the 9 Bijuu's to make it transform in another monster back in the days, then people should have been yelling like your doing atm.

The facts steal beats your assumption in any single way.


----------



## NW (May 22, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> First of all, calm your Obito hormones. Second of all, are you blind? Or just close your eyes to every other theory other than Obito's. The reason it is believed quite heavily that Kagami can be Madara's son is because of age range, and obvious facial qualities, as well as the squad he was in, cannot be coincidence. Also if Kishi did introduce him, why not add a bit more detail? Most likely he'd pass as a fodder, whereas you know for a fact, nearly every Uchiha that we've come to know, has always had some involvement / affect on the plot.
> 
> Yeah, we don't know his Sharingan powers, also you do know that Tobi has no MS seen as of yet, and being we were introduced to Kagami, he could be a possible candidate. He was also on Tobirama's squad during Tobirama's last battle, and you know for a fact everyone on his team possessed excellent skill. He has the setting in time perfect to be a candidate to help Madara, and if he is the son of Madara, perfectly good motive.
> 
> ...



Lolololololololololol. Oh, God, I'm sorry, but that whole "In love with Obito" part was hilarious!(I know it was intended as an insult but it was still funny.) I don't close my eyes to theories other than Obito. I also believe he could be Izuna and MAYBE the Older or Younger son of the Sage of Six paths. Obito just seems the most plausible to me due to how Kishi writes and how Japanese Mythology gives blatant hints that Tobi is Obito. Do you really think that Kishi will be inconsistent with his villain theme even with all the hints of Tobi being Obito? Geez, Kagami doesn't even have any japanese mythology supporting him besides Tobi's name which very well could come from Tengu myths. Even then, all that proves is that he's an Uchiha. And also, answer me this: How the heck could Kishi make Tobi Obito WITHOUT it being obvious? Also, I already said that I think Obito is doing this of his own free will, no jutsus involved. Who else would even have the need for a one eye holed mask? If it's Obito, then he was covering up his other eye because it was implanted and therefore would cause unnecessary chakra drain. And I don't see why Madara/Black Zetsu couldn't have turned Obito with words. It would in essence make him just another victim of this "cursed shinobi world". Which would fit perfectly in the story. Plus tobi looks nothing like Kagami. Don't you think it would make sense if we actually recognized the face of the man behind the mask?





McLover said:


> TobiUchiha111 and loool3 are just a troll with a theory based on appearances and has no true manga-based explanation other than their low quality drawings of the left and right side not being wrinkled, just like i can say:
> was about to explode
> oh look, tobi's hair is different in the 2 pictures its more spikey in the middle pic that means MAYBE he can grow hair or MAYBE and PROBABLY do a jutsu with his hair to change from short to long
> omfg are you retarded?
> ...



Okay, I'm sick of typing after that reply in the top half of this, so imma just settle this quick.

I don't ignore other people's theories. I just point out the faults I find in them, and when people state something wrong with my theory, I try to refute it if I can. It's basically no different from what everyone else here is doing. And, I see no reason why Obito couldn't have grown his hair long, seeing as how it's a NATURAL thing that hair grows. You're argument is invalid.


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

loool3 said:


> lol, aren't you the same troll which disagreed on Tobito having changed his personality as nearl 75% of the characters did?
> So whats your point anyways?
> He had no motive?
> Ur trolling to much around it's Kishi which is writting the manga and not you.
> ...




I'll answer you as your the second Obito fanboy here, making it the current duo.

I did not "troll" about Tobito changing his personality, I never said Obito changed his personality, or agreed to it, as I know Obito just changing without motive is retarded. 
I know I'm not writing the manga by the way, so why are you predicting it's Obito as if it's a fact, and if it is written in stone, the speculation you've been able to achieve, is achievable by an infant. 
Aha, and no I'm not a Madara boy either. I don't believe he is a clone of Madara, as that would be a total ruin, and Kishimoto wouldn't be interested in just making two Madara's, especially when it is being implied Tobi may actually betray Madara. You say motives is a lame excuse, why else would fucking Obito, the weakling compared to Tobi actually turn evil, even if he gained enough power, there is no reason for him to, all I hear from fanboys to counter that is usually "A jutsu to manipulate him". 
Yes you didn't know about his motives, but many people due to his realistic personality of Madara concluded it through the Real Madara's motive, yet it didn't turn out to be Madara in the end, and was just a blatant slap on the readers fact, unexpectedly, it wouldn't be Madara again or his clone, that would just be a troll. You really think a guy which was about Konnohamaru's age right now became into Tobi? There was nothing as depressing in his life in comparison to lets say Pein, which would actually have him begin a vendetta on the Leaf village and want to rule the Shinobi world.

Whereas someone directly related to Madara as Kagami or Izuna, who'd actually have good motive to start such a feat of a mission, which would baffle the entire Shinobi world. Madara used strategy, not a little boy with a crushed little body. He most likely also implanted Zetsu, at most as I did say before, it is part Zetsu and Tobi, along with a living Uchiha such as Izuna or Kagami, but it is very unlikely it is the actual Obito himself.

Try not cling onto characters as fanboys, and bring your passion as a fan into debates, because it obviously doesn't work well. The proof is infront of you, if you were dedicated in finding out who Tobi really was, and not just Obito wanks, you'd investigate who's most likely to be Tobi. Not just; "Herp Derp, Colour of mask, and the side where the eyeball is". Also there's nothing to sympathize over a little boy who randomly, out of bad narrative became a mastermind as a villain, only pity for the writer, which couldn't come up with a better idea.

I'm done debating here, as I said, this is a Tennis game between the constructive comments and comments which are coming from fanboys.

Respect someones opinion, and they'll respect yours, and debate impartially and professionally, not shoving your theory down everyones gob. Perhaps if  Obito's dying wish was to have you preach his name as the identity of Tobi, I'd sympathize with you.

I'd rather just wait for Kishimoto to reveal who it really is, as this argument is pointless and going nowhere. We'll see who eats their own words, and if it does turn out whoever just because of their eye position and kiddies-style writing which tries to just gain pity from easily sympathizing people, without a proper _believable motive_ we'll soon be able to recognize that this manga has sank.


----------



## Moon Fang (May 22, 2012)

Wish people started saying "Obitos body". There is no reason for it to be Obito I don't see why he would think of this on his own without outside convincing.


----------



## Shaz (May 22, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> Wish people started saying "Obitos body". There is no reason for it to be Obito I don't see why he would think of this on his own without outside convincing.




If only someone could preach this.


Whatever, think what you want, I have no problem that you think it's Obito, just your approach on newer theories, and flood of Obito's theories - Yes we got them memorized with all this repetition of them. Remember every theory was made from scratch, we'll just have to see the truth in the end.


Ciao for now.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 22, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> Wish people started saying "Obitos body". There is no reason for it to be Obito I don't see why he would think of this on his own without outside convincing.



There's even less reason for it to be Obito's body, I don't know why you find that more acceptable.


----------



## NW (May 22, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I'll answer you as your the second Obito fanboy here, making it the current duo.
> 
> I did not "troll" about Tobito changing his personality, I never said Obito changed his personality, or agreed to it, as I know Obito just changing without motive is retarded.
> I know I'm not writing the manga by the way, so why are you predicting it's Obito as if it's a fact, and if it is written in stone, the speculation you've been able to achieve, is achievable by an infant.
> ...


I know you left and won't see this probably, but I'll reply anyway, out of sheer boredom and the fact that other people may see this.

First of all, people being Obito fanboys is a bad reason to give. I, for one, am not an Obito fanboy. I just think he would work best for Tobi. 



"Also there's nothing to sympathize over a boy who randomly, out of bad narrative became a mastermind as a villain, only pity for the writer, which couldn't come up with a better idea." 

If Tobi is Obito, then it's because Kishi wanted it to be, not because he couldn't think of anything better. Meaning that he obviously has a very interesting backstory for Tobi being Obito. People talk as if they already know what will happen if Tobi is Obito, yet they don't. I seriously think that you are underestimating Masashi Kishimoto's abilities as a writer.

And, again, you are only stating the obvious evidence that suggests he is Obito, yet you continue to ignore the really deep, logical evidence.

Since you're apparently done with this thread for while, I doubt you'll read this, but if you do, at least take what I've just said into consideration.


----------



## jacamo (May 22, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Then whats the point of arguing about it? What is your theory, we can check how many plotholes that has.



you cant, because my Kagami prediction has ZERO plotholes 

the only argument is his so-called irrelevance

but even that is a bad argument, he was part of team Tobirama alongside Hiruzen, Danzo, the 2 Elders and Torifu... if he was part of that generation then it also means he was old enough to be in contact with Hashirama and Madara for goodness sake, god thats practically pre-Konoha!!!


on the other hand... the Obito theory has way too many plotholes to be considered plausible at all


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 22, 2012)

Kagami, strictly speaking, has no plot holes because his character is entirely speculative.

You say he _could_ have done all this stuff but there is nothing to suggest that he did. It is all a bunch of assumptions.


----------



## thepowerofscience (May 22, 2012)

The time line and the S/T jutsu (if we say he improved Tobirama S/t) are the only things that can stand as proofs of the theory.


----------



## jacamo (May 22, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Man, Izuna is slowly becoming more and more of a possibility in my mind.



except Madara said he died... that ship has sailed

for Tobi to be Izuna now, would be trolling




First Tsurugi said:


> Kagami, strictly speaking, has no plot holes because his character is entirely speculative.
> 
> You say he _could_ have done all this stuff but there is nothing to suggest that he did. It is all a bunch of assumptions.



the timeline fits perfectly as well


----------



## thepowerofscience (May 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> except Madara said he died... that ship has sailed
> 
> for Tobi to be Izuna now, would be trolling
> 
> ...



as I said in my previous post the timeline and S/T are strong proofs but excluding Izuna because he died isn't enough to kill Izuna theory hence there are many ways the manga showed to resuscitate the dead.


----------



## NW (May 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> except Madara said he died... that ship has sailed
> 
> for Tobi to be Izuna now, would be trolling



Lol, I'm just presenting more possibilities. Madara could have revived Izuna from the dead with Rinne Tensei. Although, when Madara said he was dead, i think he meant he didn't come back, because he was referring to the fact that all his brother left him was his eyes. meaning he died and din't come back. So, i guess it can't be him after all. Well, I give. i'll give the Kagami theory another shot. I used to support it but then got more into the Obito theory. But, I guess this could work, just maybe, If it's done right. So, my new primary theories are Kagami and Obito.


----------



## jacamo (May 22, 2012)

thepowerofscience said:


> as I said in my previous post the timeline and S/T are strong proofs but excluding Izuna because he died isn't enough to kill Izuna theory hence there are many ways the manga showed to resuscitate the dead.



of course its possible for Madara to have used Rinne Tensei to bring back Izuna from the dead... but not after recent statements



TobiUchiha111 said:


> Lol, I'm just presenting more possibilities. Madara could have revived Izuna from the dead with Rinne Tensei. Although, when Madara said he was dead, i think he meant he didn't come back, because he was referring to the fact that all his brother left him was his eyes. meaning he died and din't come back. So, i guess it can't be him after all. Well, I give. i'll give the Kagami theory another shot. I used to support it but then got more into the Obito theory. But, I guess this could work, just maybe, If it's done right. So, my new primary theories are Kagami and Obito.



Izuna WAS the most plausible, but its no longer the case when:

(1) Madara says he died 
(2) Madara knows exactly who Tobi is

Kishi wouldnt have had Madara say those things if Tobi was Izuna


----------



## NW (May 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> of course its possible for Madara to have used Rinne Tensei to bring back Izuna from the dead... but not after recent statements
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I guess the point of Kishi making Madara say all that was to get us all off the Izuna theory and mindfuck us all even more.(


----------



## jacamo (May 22, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Well, I guess the point of Kishi making Madara say all that was to get us all off the Izuna theory and mindfuck us all even more.(



precisely my point... it would be trolling

some reveal that would be


----------



## Punished Pathos (May 22, 2012)

To me, Tobi's masks represent the progress of DNA integration/Occular Jutsu

*Spoiler*: __ 



When he met Itachi/Took the Kyuubi from Kushina he had this

I think this Mask represents the Senju Clan's emblem in a twisted way.
That's how I see it. I mean it can't just be some amaterasu looking design.

The swirl pattern Mask definitely resembles the Uzumaki Clan.


After Tobi won against Konan and reclaimed the Rinnegan from Nagato's corpse, he donned this mask. Clearly it resembles the Sharingan and Rinnegan in some aspects.
I wanna go on a limb and say each mask that Tobi wore represented a new Stage for him (Genetic wise)
There is strong evidence concluding he has Senju and Uchiha DNA, but nothing supports him having uzumaki DNA (The Bijuu controlling chains was a trait of the Rinnegan it seems -_-)
Anyways, I just wanted to share this.


----------



## NW (May 22, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> To me, Tobi's masks represent the progress of DNA integration/Occular Jutsu
> 
> When he met Itachi/Took the Kyuubi from Kushina he had this
> 
> ...



Wow. Great theory. It actually makes sense. Tobi having Uzumaki DNA would be a great twist. So, maybe the Uzumaki are further involved in all this than we thought....


----------



## thepowerofscience (May 22, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> To me, Tobi's masks represent the progress of DNA integration/Occular Jutsu
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



The orange mask resembles the elder son doujutsu and the first one resembles  the senju (the younger son) clan insignia where the last one resembles the combine of them the rinnegan (or the juubi eye for the tomoes) which resembles SO6P.


----------



## NW (May 22, 2012)

Okay, since I'm starting to get into the Kagami theory again, I re-read the chapter he appeared in to spot some clues, and I found something interesting: was about to explode

If you look at the top two locks of Kagami's hair, they strongly resemble devil horns. This could have been Kishi hinting that Kagami was evil. Also, now that I think about it more, this panel seems pretty suspicious: 
was about to explode


Kagami is the one to suggest a decoy. Maybe, Kagami wanted to be Hokage, to stop the injustices and suspicions that Tobirama put the Uchiha clan under. He knew that a decoy wouldn't survive. And he knew that Tobirama wouldn't let anyone else go. He also, in this eliminated Tobirama, out of hatred for the Senju clan. Notice, how when Tobirama goes over to Hiruzen instead of him, Kagami's face looks all sad and his face is darkened: 
was about to explode


----------



## Good Boy (May 22, 2012)

*Naruto 600: Uchiha Kagami!!!*

_Tobi is unmasked and revealed to be Uchiha Kagami_
Naruto: Uchiha Kagami, famous ninja!!!!!!
Kakashi: Why Kagami?!!
Gai: ...
Killer Bee: Kagami dude, why is it you?~
Kagami: Yes everybody, it is me famous ninja Uchiha Kagami
Naruto: Why did you do it?!

_The reader is shown how Kagami behind the scenes, paid attention to by nobody, amassed enough power to cast Izanagi into the moon. Thus putting the Narutoverse under the impression Uchiha Kagami wasn't a throwaway character_


----------



## jacamo (May 22, 2012)

another hint that Tobi is Kagami :ho



Danzo and Tobi are staring at each other like rivals



Pathos Grim said:


> NOTE: After Tobi said that "I'm no one" speech, one can guess that he went through a lot of pain in the past.
> Tobi lost everything in the past or something along those lines.
> He should at least have an MS...



yeh Tobi has certainly had a sad past, its a theme in this manga... thats kind of why im speculating Kagami was Obito's father, whose death hit him hard

and i agree that Tobi's S/T jutsus have to be MS... Kishi couldnt show the design or anything otherwise it would spoil the reveal


----------



## son_michael (May 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> yeh Tobi has certainly had a sad past, its a theme in this manga... thats kind of why im speculating Kagami was Obito's father, whose death hit him hard
> 
> and i agree that Tobi's S/T jutsus have to be MS... Kishi couldnt show the design or anything otherwise it would spoil the reveal




So its gonna go like this?


Kakashi: That eye....that power...how can this be.... impossible...obito?!

Tobi: not quite...but your closer than you think



Kishi: See! everybody wins!


----------



## jacamo (May 22, 2012)

son_michael said:


> So its gonna go like this?
> 
> 
> Kakashi: That eye....that power...how can this be.... impossible...obito?!
> ...



haha maybe

look at it this way... if it goes like that we will have some very interesting and extensive backstory to look forward to


----------



## Punished Pathos (May 22, 2012)

son_michael said:


> So its gonna go like this?
> 
> 
> Kakashi: That eye....that power...how can this be.... impossible...obito?!
> ...



Hahaha, I would still feel trolled if that happened.


----------



## Talis (May 23, 2012)

McLover said:


> tobiuchiha111 and loool3 are just a troll with a theory based on appearances and has no true manga-based explanation other than their low quality drawings of the left and right side not being wrinkled, just like i can say:
> THIS
> oh look, tobi's hair is different in the 2 pictures its more spikey in the middle pic that means MAYBE he can grow hair or MAYBE and PROBABLY do a jutsu with his hair to change from short to long
> omfg are you retarded?
> ...


Looks like you don't understand the common sense of masked mans, as a writer you can't change their appearences.
People are trying to guess their identity no matter what you can't show the masked in a chapter with pink long hairs while you show it in the next one as a black short one.

On top of that the stupidity of people is just so fcking insane.
You dumbasses believed Tobi being Madara with hair cut.
Fail.
And now you don't believe the guy with Madara's hair to be Madara.
How stupid can someone be?
Seriously for gods sake. 

''loool3 are just a troll with a theory with a theory based on appearances and has no true manga-based explanation other than their low quality drawings'' yeah sure and your such a super clever to believe a random character being Madara thats a real true manga based explanation, i should have seen your stunning face when edo Madara appeared in chapter 559.

And don't forget how the people got blamed when they said Minato is Naruto's dad cuz they got the same hair style as well. 

Oh well, don't act like something at all since your previous theory failed while mine is still going to happen.


----------



## Escargon (May 23, 2012)

Oh yeah Kagami.

Time to reveal my face! Im Kagami!

What the fuck who are you? Not who, but what?

Me: Oh god, better check Naruto forum lols.



MissinqNin said:


> Have you been keeping up with the Manga at all? If Tobi was _impersonating_ Madara, of course he would say he fought Hashirama, and like I said, Tobi and Madara have an obvious link as seen in the last few Mangas, so Madara gave Tobi zetsu possibly, or Hashirama's cells alone, and Tobi created Zetsu, and because Zetsu is able to record memories, Tobi knew the details.



When Kabuto busted Tobis identity by showing Madara in the coffin, moments later, Tobi showed him his base. When he showed him the tissue of Hashirama, Tobi said "i got that DNA from fighting Hashirama."


----------



## Talis (May 23, 2012)

thepowerofscience said:


> as I said in my previous post the timeline and S/T are strong proofs but excluding Izuna because he died isn't enough to kill Izuna theory hence there are many ways the manga showed to resuscitate the dead.


Izuna is death, Madara wasn't celebrating around when he said that he clearly looked like that Izuna clearly died...


----------



## Mateush (May 23, 2012)

Escargon said:


> When Kabuto busted Tobis identity by showing Madara in the coffin, moments later, Tobi showed him his base. When he showed him the tissue of Hashirama, Tobi said "i got that DNA from fighting Hashirama."



Indeed. If he is not partly Madara, so he should say "he stole Hashirama's cells from his fight". But, who knows if Kishi didn't thought much about this small detail


----------



## DUNGEON (May 23, 2012)

Tobi can be 
1. Elder son
2. Izuna
3. Failed experiment like zetsu
4. Danzo
5. Ramen guy


----------



## Easley (May 23, 2012)

Tobi's a weird guy but I doubt even he would act as Madara _after_ Kabuto showed him the coffin.

So, either Kishi screwed up with that line, or he actually did fight Hashirama.


----------



## son_michael (May 23, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi's a weird guy but I doubt even he would act as Madara _after_ Kabuto showed him the coffin.
> 
> So, either Kishi screwed up with that line, or he actually did fight Hashirama.



Tobi didn't fight Hashirama. He tells everyone he's madara because he doesn't know Kabuto has summoned him on the battlefields and the jig is up.


----------



## Easley (May 23, 2012)

son_michael said:


> Tobi didn't fight Hashirama. He tells everyone he's madara because he doesn't know Kabuto has summoned him on the battlefields and the jig is up.


So why did he tell Kabuto he got DNA from fighting Hashirama after he'd showed him the coffin? That seems a bit ridiculous to me.

Even for the reader's benefit, it's a weird act to maintain.


----------



## Mateush (May 23, 2012)

son_michael said:


> Tobi didn't fight Hashirama. He tells everyone he's madara because he doesn't know Kabuto has summoned him on the battlefields and the jig is up.



I agree Tobi didn't fight Hashirama, it was real Madara who fought him. But if what he said to Kabuto (and also that scene with Konan seconds before hers death) is true, so Tobi has to be Madara in another body or as he calls it "a shell of my former self".


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 23, 2012)

Easley said:


> So why did he tell Kabuto he got DNA from fighting Hashirama after he'd showed him the coffin? That seems a bit ridiculous to me.
> 
> Even for the reader's benefit, it's a weird act to maintain.



Ask yourself what else he could have said in that scene without spoiling the twist prematurely.


----------



## Easley (May 23, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Ask yourself what else he could have said in that scene without spoiling the twist prematurely.


Not writing that line at all would be better. Reading it again after Madara's reveal shows that Kishi isn't too subtle. 

Or maybe Tobi really does think he's Madara? nah, it was just crap dialog.


----------



## son_michael (May 23, 2012)

Easley said:


> So why did he tell Kabuto he got DNA from fighting Hashirama after he'd showed him the coffin? That seems a bit ridiculous to me.
> 
> Even for the reader's benefit, it's a weird act to maintain.



maybe tobi was actually there after they fought and collected DNA. Who the hell knows. i'm certain that tobi and uchiha Madara are not the same person, Madara was brought back to life while tobi is alive so either tobi is someone else or he's a bad clone. He's definitely not Madara.


@Mateush

"shell of my former self" could just be words to keep up the act or they could be real words woven into the lie that he is uchiha madara.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 23, 2012)

Easley said:


> Not writing that line at all would be better. Reading it again after Madara's reveal shows that Kishi isn't too subtle.
> 
> Or maybe Tobi really does think he's Madara? nah, it was just crap dialog.



It was necessary to explain the existence of the Zetsu army. Was it handled sloppily? Sure. But this twist has been a long time coming.


----------



## Easley (May 23, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> It was necessary to explain the existence of the Zetsu army. Was it handled sloppily? Sure. But this twist has been a long time coming.


yeah, it should have been handled better, even if it was necessary. I'm sure Kishi knows that people analyze every word he writes, going back hundreds of chapters to find inconsistencies. It's tough, but can look silly when you reread this stuff.

Tobi's convo with Konan is another example. He could easily tell us about Izanagi without clinging to his Madara persona. All we needed to know is that Uchiha/Senju traits are required. Even if Kishi was maintaining the twist, it's still clumsy execution.


----------



## Shaz (May 23, 2012)

> When Kabuto busted Tobis identity by showing Madara in the coffin, moments later, Tobi showed him his base. When he showed him the tissue of Hashirama, Tobi said "i got that DNA from fighting Hashirama."



Since their is some diversity coming back into this topic, and we're actually going somewhere I'll start posting again.

Anyway about your query, what I have to say that is Madara clearly knows Tobi, thus if it is someone like Izuna or Kagami I could see him handing Hashirama's cells over. Remember Tobi was impersonating, to say he was the one who fought Hashirama and took his cells, made it beliavablw since everyone was like how the hell did he get them, and to an extent made us believe he was Madara, until, Of couse - Edo Madara shows up and we're all like what the fuck?

I'm on a phone atm so I don't want to really post lengthy stuff about Kagami, but I agree with you when some of you say he has no back story so it's really based on assumptions, it might be but there are possibilites due to what his age would be right now, he may of also developed his S/T and surpassed the second. Also we see Tobi is very cunning, and it was as someone posted; Kagami who was keen on someone to distract the bounty hunters. Also remember because Kagami's death is only assumed and he has little back story, Kishi can just pull strings based on on his age and jutsu to add to how he turned out to be Tobi, and make it believable, though I'd really would want Kishi to have give more backstory to Kagami if he does turn out to be Tobi

I also like the idea of Kagami being Obito's dad as that so called "Kakashi's year" will stillcome, and it will also be what him turn plain evil under the influence of Madara. I also do believe at times that it was the real Madara with the long hair who taught Itachi, why may you ask? Because it is said Kagami was assumed to be dead before or during the Uchiha massacre, perhaps Madara rescued him and influenced him, and gave him the mission and died.


----------



## NW (May 23, 2012)

I thought of something interesting. Remember when Kabuto showed Tobi the sixth coffin, and Tobi was standing in front of it, almost as if he was "mirroring" Madara. And, since Kagami means mirror, this fits with Kishi's whole name thing. We know that Kishi very often makes a character's name an overall description of that person's character adn personality. This explains how Tobi was "mirroring" madara. If he also somehow stole Obito's eye and named himself after Tobirama, then he really would be mirroring three diferent people, essentially making him himself "No One". I have to admit, this theory becomes better the more I look at it. Fits better than the Obito theory I was raving about.....


----------



## Shaz (May 23, 2012)

The thing with Kagami's theory is that Kagami, the character itself doesn't have a lot of backstory which makes his theory plausible as anything could've happened from little that we do know about him.

What interests me is that he may of not died, as I much rather Tobi as a living and breathing person than a used and abused vessel or even people ressurected with a Rinnegan. Of course he could still have Zetsu implants. 

I also would like it if he had some direct relationship with the deceased Obito. As for being Madara's son, I may take that back as I doubt Madara was interested in having sex to make one, he was more of a one man army only interested to destroy Hashirama and his village, but at the same time. Agreeably We were promised more insight on Kakashi's past, and by Tobi being Obito's dad or so, this can be accomplished.


----------



## Talis (May 23, 2012)

I just wonder what Tobi's forehead bandage is hiding.
I thought that it was the leaf headband ''which Madara would never wore'' since he had a grudge against Konoha, but we already saw Madara wearing it in Onoki's flashback+ Edo Madara is back.


----------



## Shaz (May 23, 2012)

I think it possibly could be a third eye. Perhaps Zetsu's eye (Linked to his Zetsu implants), as we know Zetsu can record events, perhaps it's used by Tobi to keep sharp, detailed memory of anything and everything he's come across, which could potentially make him unbeatable by some jutsu he's already seen, as he may develop a defence against them.


----------



## Raventhal (May 23, 2012)

I am almost certain Tobi has Obito's eye.  I just don't see how Tobi can be Obito because he's just too old looking.  Characters in Naruto don't seem to get real old until 60-70.  Obito would be just turning 30 and there's no way he's that old and those aren't scars.


----------



## Nuuskis (May 23, 2012)

I have probably said this before, but I am saying it again:

I believe Tobi is a real living but less powerful clone of Uchiha Madara.

When real Madara was dying he thought that someone would have to continue his Moon's Eye Plan, so he used that Zetsu's goo, Hashirama's DNA and his own DNA to create a body, a vessel for in which he infused lifeforce with Izanagi.
And it's very obvious that Madara knows Tobi, since he said "This is his doing". And Kabuto later talked about Tobi as "he".

Since I believe you can use Izanagi to create life only if you also have the Rinnegan, in that way it would make sense since Madara had the Rinnegan when he died, and after Madara died, Tobi took Madara's Rinnegan and gave them to Nagato because he was best compatible for them or because Tobi wanted to keep himself hidden, and he wanted someone who was easy to manipulate, and so Nagato would later use Rinnegan to revive the real Madara until the time was right.

Also Tobi knows so much about Juubi, Rikudou Sage, Izanagi and Hashirama so I have a hard time to believe it would be anyone else.

But then again Tsunade said that Tobi used Madara's name so they would go into war. And that definitely seems to be Tobi's plan, since he said it doesn't matter if they know he is not real Madara since the war has already started.

But then again Tobi claims to be no one, so it's not important to Tobi as who they think he is. So why in the world does he keep wearing that mask? Because he doesn't want to have an identity. He claimed himself to be no one. It's just that simple.

And I kinda have the feeling that Kishimoto is trying to make us absolutely sure that Tobi is definitely not Madara. But imagine the surprise when we see the face of aged Madara behind that mask.


----------



## †obitobi (May 23, 2012)

When you look at Kabuto's backstory, it all, in my opinion, seems to allude to something similar (ROOT's interest in orphans, and Izanami used to make someone to think in a certain way).

When I recap, Orochimaru, apparently, imo, knew Madara, and about Izanagi (and possibly, Izanami), so what I draw is that Orochimaru is the key centerpiece of something concerning what these subjects all allude towards.

In other words, it is possible that Oro at some point associated with:

1. An orphan
2. Izanami
3. Madara

And perhaps these three sort of divulge Tobi's identity.


----------



## thepowerofscience (May 23, 2012)

Nachrael said:


> I have probably said this before, but I am saying it again:
> 
> I believe Tobi is a real living but less powerful clone of Uchiha Madara.
> 
> ...



The problem about Madara clone or part Madara is how come a clone or a part of the real thing has S/T while Madara himself never shown such a feat.


----------



## Nuuskis (May 23, 2012)

thepowerofscience said:


> The problem about Madara clone or part Madara is how come a clone or a part of the real thing has S/T while Madara himself never shown such a feat.



Yeap that is the biggest plothole in that theory and I cannot think of any reason of how Tobi could have got it. And I admit, it favours the Tobi=Obito theory, because Kakashi's(Obito's) Mangekyo power does resemble Tobi's S/T.

Obito's left Mangekyo: Sends other people to other dimension
Obito's right Mangekyo: Teleports the user to other dimension


----------



## Juuuuubi (May 23, 2012)

Tobi obtaining it after Madara died is the obvious explanation.


----------



## NW (May 23, 2012)

Juuuuubi said:


> Tobi obtaining it after Madara died is the obvious explanation.


If Madara actually had Space-Time Ninjutsu, don't you think he would be using it against the Kages right about now? But, from what we've seen, he has shown no such ability.


----------



## Shaz (May 23, 2012)

I really do hope we get to see Tobi soon, I am getting irritated with the constant flood of the Uchiha brothers and Kabuto.


----------



## NW (May 23, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I really do hope we get to see Tobi soon, I am getting irritated with the constant flood of the Uchiha brothers and Kabuto.


Agreed. All together, the Kages vs. Madara fight got at least 6 chapters. Naruto vs. Tobi got like 5, and Bros vs. Kabuto got like 9! Hopefully, with Kabuto in the loop, it will be okay for Kishi to switch out to another fight. I also think that maybe the recent inclusion of Danzo in the Kabuto flashbacks could be a hint that Tobi is Kagami.


----------



## Shaz (May 23, 2012)

Yeah, I really do hope to see Tobi soon, but as we know Kishi, he might keep him away for a while, to build tension.


----------



## NW (May 23, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rGOaFImGIM[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7T6ytKfBhU&feature=plcp[/YOUTUBE]




o______O.......Daaaaaaamn, that's some good evidence.......


----------



## Shaz (May 23, 2012)

Very interesting.


----------



## McLover (May 24, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rGOaFImGIM[/YOUTUBE]
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7T6ytKfBhU&feature=plcp[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> 
> ...



1:00 when did tobi threaten kabuto not to edo tensei danzo ?
Link removed
he only said that danzou's right eye should carry shisui's dna cause he had his eye.
hmmm what did he mean by the six paths of pain's weapons though ?


----------



## thepowerofscience (May 24, 2012)

McLover said:


> 1:00 when did tobi threaten kabuto not to edo tensei danzo ?
> Link removed
> he only said that danzou's right eye should carry shisui's dna cause he had his eye.
> hmmm what did *he mean by the six paths of pain's weapons though *?



Jiraiya blood (DNA) is on them.


----------



## mrweekend (May 24, 2012)

I don't about you guys, but all the way back since the story of Tobirama and his team were introduced, especially with the Brady-Bunch like portraits, I always wondered about Kagami Uchiha.  Yea he a character that we really know nothing about when it comes down to it.  But I've noticed 2 things:  

1.)  There are fodder characters within Naruto, but when new characters are introduced to us in story mode by important people (Tobi, Itachi, Kabuto, etc.) whoever is introduced is important, however bland they may be or irrelevant.

2.) I always felt that for the most part, the main setting of Naruto has been based mainly on shinobi from the 2nd Hokage rule/era and then on (excluding Madara, 1st Hokage, Bijuus, and the SOT6P of course), especially from Tobirama's team.  Every member of that team either is active within Konoha at a high position or was (Kotare, Danzo and the other guy), or have trained and produced LEGENDARY ninja that are also instrumental to Konoha and the naruto anime in general (Hiruzen came from 2nd Hokage, who had underlings consisting of Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade, who each themselves became sensei of high-level ninja like the 4th Hokage, Nagato, Konan, Kabuto, Shizune, and Naruto.  The only ones left out really are Toriku and Kagami. 


...Let's be honest, the Akimichi clan are part the storyline, but aren't usually main characters in the important events of Konoha's history.....but even Toriku is shown with his team defending against the Kyuubi...


Anywho, Danzou and Kagami were missing.  For Danzou, I look at it as he was running ROOT, and was willing to let Konoha crumble a bit to have his chance at being Hokage.  
Again we don't know where Kagami was, let alone where the rest of the Uchiha clan really was on that day....

Adding that all in with the above theory video by TobiUchiha111, I don't believe Kagami, an *Uchiha* was just a fodder character.  I believe Kagami to not only will be the man under the mask, but also someone that will connect ALOT of dots are far as plotholes and unknown storylines (maybe with Kakashi, Obito, Rin, relationship with Madara and/or more) B)


----------



## NW (May 24, 2012)

mrweekend said:


> I don't about you guys, but all the way back since the story of Tobirama and his team were introduced, especially with the Brady-Bunch like portraits, I always wondered about Kagami Uchiha.  Yea he a character that we really know nothing about when it comes down to it.  But I've noticed 2 things:
> 
> 1.)  There are fodder characters within Naruto, but when new characters are introduced to us in story mode by important people (Tobi, Itachi, Kabuto, etc.) whoever is introduced is important, however bland they may be or irrelevant.
> 
> ...



Lol, the videos weren't mine. They are by someone on YouTube called "Loveallasone3". i just wanted to show people the evidence on his videos.


EDIT: I just took a picture of the most of Tobi's face we have seen:Link removed

And used paint to take out the wrinkles. Without them, he looks just like Kagami and Obito. So, I am positive that it is one of them.


----------



## Talis (May 24, 2012)

All these points in the video is fanfic lol. 
''Kagami is Madara's son, he teached Shisui mind controle, he is blabla'' theres too much fanfic in it, the only thing which makes sense is him using Nidaime as a sacrifice.

''He knew about Danouz's sacrifice jutsu, so Danzou had been already sacrificing and killing himself in front of Kagami'''? lol
''He knew a lot about Uzumaki's because they were alife at his time'', same goes for Izuna, Madara clone, Obito, Shisui, RS, RS Sons, and every other candidate lol.

Only Kagami had been missing on the 9 tails Kyuubi's attack? 
Every single Uchiha was absent. 

Why would he uses his sensei ''which he hated like you said'' 's name? Obito wins on that point. 

He used Madara's name so that Itachi wouldn't kill him. 
Now tell me, who would Itachi a good guy kill, a villian like Madara which attacked the leaf before, or a random Kagami? 

Like i said too much weak points and too much fanfic, only the last points makes sense like i said it above...


----------



## NW (May 24, 2012)

loool3 said:


> All these points in the video is fanfic lol.
> ''Kagami is Madara's son, he teached Shisui mind controle, he is blabla'' theres too much fanfic in it, the only thing which makes sense is him using Nidaime as a sacrifice.
> ''He knew about Danouz's sacrifice jutsu, so Danzou had been already sacrificing and killing himself in front of Kagam'i'? lol
> ''He knew a lot about Uzumaki's because they were alife at his time'', same goes for Izuna, Madara clone, Obito, Shisui, RS, RS Sons, and every other candidate lol.
> ...



Damn, you're good. I guess I'm I'm going back to Obito then


----------



## Talis (May 24, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Damn, you're good. I guess I'm I'm going back to Obito then


Edited, the last few points completely crushes it.


----------



## NW (May 24, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Edited, the last few points completely crushes it.



Wow, i can't believe I didn't notice those obvious points before

Well, anyway, since i used paint to remove wrinkles/scars off of Tobi's face, and he looked like Kagami and Obito, if he's not Kagami then he must be Obito.


----------



## Talis (May 24, 2012)

Theres no reaoson for Kagami having a crushed body, merged with Zetsu  goo.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (May 24, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Theres no reaoson for Kagami having a crushed body, merged with Zetsu  goo.


And how exactly do you know what Tobi's body looks like? No official source has released any artwork of him without some sort of clothing on his upper body. I'm not saying that I believe in him being Kagami, but still. You're treating your assumptions as facts.


----------



## NW (May 24, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Theres no reaoson for Kagami having a crushed body, merged with Zetsu  goo.



Tbh, that is one of the things that disproves most theories except Obito. Than again, we don't really know much about Kagami, but, it's unlikely that he would have Zetsu arms.


----------



## †obitobi (May 24, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Tbh, that is one of the things that disproves most theories except Obito. Than again, we don't really know much about Kagami, but, it's unlikely that he would have Zetsu arms.



Something else that stands out, in my opinion, albeit indirectly, for Obito are the Kakashi chapters. When you think about it honestly, how does it really progress the story? Unless there was something significant that pertained to the rest of the story, it was basically a filler.

That's, however, contingent upon you not considering Kakashi's past as significant to the main story line, like me.

Now, if it were to show the origin of Tobi, then that would make sense as to why it was where it was (at the start of pt. 2).

In my opinion, it would make sense if Orochimaru and Madara wanted to leave their legacy with the  next generation (like with Kabuto and Nagato), and chance encountered Obito's fight with the stone ninja while on a mission or something like that. Izanami would explain Obito's sudden change of heart, and Zetsu parts would explain his adult looking body at 13.

I don't think that Shisui would refer to himself in the third person, as Tobi mentioned how Danzo destroyed "Shisui's" sharingan as opposed to "his" sharingan, why would Kagami have Zetsu parts, Izuna was implied to be dead by Madara, Madara is Madara, Danzo is Danzo, and Tobi apparently thought that Sasuke was about to die when fighting with Danzo, so he probably isn't Sasuke from the future.


----------



## Chaotic Gangsta (May 24, 2012)

The answer is quite simple actually  Most just think too much of it but when you really really put the peices together he couldn't possibly Kigame nor Obito 'cause that's a little too unrealistic and unconventional. Tobi's...some random mexican guy


----------



## Lupita (May 24, 2012)

Tobi is Obito, who was saved by Madara and decided to carry on his will.


----------



## †obitobi (May 24, 2012)

Anyone else think that there's a connection with Zetsu's ability to "record" and Izanami? It seems like it would be ideal for something like Izanami.


----------



## Talis (May 25, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> And how exactly do you know what Tobi's body looks like? No official source has released any artwork of him without some sort of clothing on his upper body. I'm not saying that I believe in him being Kagami, but still. You're treating your assumptions as facts.


You clearly saw ripping both his arms apart which came out as a Zetsu goo, and the pins he has on his body...


----------



## Olivia (May 25, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Agreed. All together, the Kages vs. Madara fight got at least 6 chapters. Naruto vs. Tobi got like 5, and Bros vs. Kabuto got like 9! Hopefully, with Kabuto in the loop, it will be okay for Kishi to switch out to another fight. I also think that maybe the recent inclusion of Danzo in the Kabuto flashbacks could be a hint that Tobi is Kagami.



People keep saying this but this is false; Naruto vs Tobi and Itachi and Sasuke vs Kabuto are tied for the longest currently with ten chapters (I'm including flashbacks with this) while Madara vs The Kages (Counting when he himself started fighting) has had nine chapters; if I include when he was introduced that would be ten chapters. So really the fights are all balanced in how much they have shown so far.


----------



## mrweekend (May 25, 2012)

Lupita said:


> Tobi is Obito, who was saved by Madara and decided to carry on his will.



I've always thought that Obito is a viable choice for being Tobi...Space-Time jutsu is his speciality and it bear resemblance to Kakashi's, but I can't look past the fact that the few times we've seen the right side of Tobi's face, it has wrinkles.....similar to Danzou wrinkles, and Obito would be around Kakashi's age, around 30-ish...Doesn't add up to me..

[QUOTEAnyone else think that there's a connection with Zetsu's ability to "record" and Izanami? It seems like it would be ideal for something like Izanami.][/QUOTE]

Possibly.  I could only think any relevance between Zetsu and Izanami is probably how Zetsu was made of something; doubt if they share the same power or something....


Maybe the creation of Zetsu involved some Senju mojo and Uchiha Izanami loopyness B) ...


----------



## minato9 (May 25, 2012)

I  WAS  LOOKING IN  OLD  CHAP  AND  SEE  THAT :_second stab_

when   kurama   saw  tobi   he  say  <you...!>
like  he  knew    him   form  the  past .maybe  tobi   had  control  kurama  again  or  he   have   madara  charka


----------



## Mateush (May 25, 2012)

minato9 said:


> I  WAS  LOOKING IN  OLD  CHAP  AND  SEE  THAT :_second stab_
> 
> when   kurama   saw  tobi   he  say  <you...!>
> like  he  knew    him   form  the  past .maybe  tobi   had  control  kurama  again  or  he   have   madara  charka



Nice first post. I too think he should know who Tobi is, maybe it actually is Madara's chakra/mind but Kurama didn't told about it yet.


----------



## Escargon (May 25, 2012)

loool3 said:


> You clearly saw ripping both his arms apart which came out as a Zetsu goo, and the pins he has on his body...



I think hes made of Hashirama tissues, but he can control the shape of his flesh.

If he wants to rip it off, it turns into Zetsu for ez mode.

If he wants to stop an attack, he hardens it. I bet he can even stop Raikages punch with his arm.

He stoped Narutos headslam with his head without breaking his neck. 

He can turn his flesh into a ghost cause he controlled a tailed beast while being crushed by Bee.



minato9 said:


> I  WAS  LOOKING IN  OLD  CHAP  AND  SEE  THAT :_second stab_
> 
> when   kurama   saw  tobi   he  say  <you...!>
> like  he  knew    him   form  the  past .maybe  tobi   had  control  kurama  again  or  he   have   madara  charka



I think he just noticed his eye.

Oh yeah Tobi looks like Madara, atleast half of his face. Maybe he got Madaras face and eye implanted making the fox notice it.

Hint: Kabuto used Tobis DNA to ressurect Madara. Reread the conversations.



Seriously Obito is retarded, hes way too young. Hes half Senju. Why the hell cant he be Nawaki then?


----------



## Mateush (May 25, 2012)

Escargon said:


> I think he just noticed his eye.
> 
> Oh yeah Tobi looks like Madara, atleast half of his face. Maybe he got Madaras face and eye implanted making the fox notice it.
> 
> ...



I agree that Obito is retarded, later we can celebrate with champagne when it turns out that Tobi is actually Madara, haha.


----------



## jacamo (May 25, 2012)

loool3 said:


> All these points in the video is fanfic lol.
> ''Kagami is Madara's son, he teached Shisui mind controle, he is blabla'' theres too much fanfic in it, the only thing which makes sense is him using Nidaime as a sacrifice.
> 
> ''He knew about Danouz's sacrifice jutsu, so Danzou had been already sacrificing and killing himself in front of Kagami'''? lol
> ''He knew a lot about Uzumaki's because they were alife at his time'', same goes for Izuna, Madara clone, *Obito, Shisui*, RS, RS Sons, and every other candidate lol.



incorrect... the Uzumaki village was destroyed by the time Kushina went to Konoha, so Obito and Shisui were too young to know anything



loool3 said:


> Only Kagami had been missing on the 9 tails Kyuubi's attack?
> Every single Uchiha was absent.
> 
> Why would he uses his sensei ''which he hated like you said'' 's name? Obito wins on that point.
> ...



so what if the video is full of fanfic? the Kagami theory is still much more plausible than the Obito theory, timeline fits and has ZERO plotholes

Obito theory has like 10 plotholes


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 25, 2012)

Kagami has no plotholes because we don't know anything about Kagami, that is not a strength of the theory.


----------



## jacamo (May 25, 2012)

it is a strength when all of the other theories have multiple plotholes


----------



## NW (May 25, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I agree that Obito is retarded, later we can celebrate with champagne when it turns out that Tobi is actually Madara, haha.


Yeah, we'll see about that.....



jacamo said:


> it is a strength when all of the other theories have multiple plotholes



Plotholes that Kishi can easily fill in. When a theory has NO plotholes, that's when you know something's up. Not trying to diss the kagami theory though. I like the theory. It's just, there are a few things Kagami said and did in chapter 481 that seemed really suspicious. That's pretty much the only reason I still believe in this theory.


----------



## jacamo (May 25, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Plotholes that Kishi can easily fill in.



maybe with Izuna

but not with Obito... there are just too many definitive plotholes that would throw the story out of wack, as i said before there could be as many as 10


----------



## NW (May 25, 2012)

FINALLY! I just finished removing tobi's wrinkles on paint. So, here's the finished pics if you want to see them: 


From this, we can tell that his face easily looks like either Kagami or Obito, leaving those as the only two he could be.


----------



## Shaz (May 25, 2012)

To be honest, now that I think about it, one of the big urges of reading the manga is to get closer to Tobi's identity, and I think Kishimoto knows about his popularity, and is using it to his advantage. 

We can expect his face after a year or so.


----------



## Strauss (May 25, 2012)

I don't see how it's so impossible that the Elder Son could live for a few centuries, we're talking about a story where people can teleport giant toads and make forests grow in a matter of seconds.


----------



## NW (May 25, 2012)

mrweekend said:


> *but I can't look past the fact that the few times we've seen the right side of Tobi's face, it has wrinkles.....similar to Danzou wrinkles, and Obito would be around Kakashi's age, around 30-ish...Doesn't add up to me...*



Actually, those "wrinkles" on his right face side could not actually be "wrinkles". Those could actually be from having that boulder fall on him. Notice how we've never seen the left side of Tobi's face, which would be perfectly fine if he were Obito....




MissinqNin said:


> To be honest, now that I think about it, one of the big urges of watching the manga is to get closer to Tobi's identity, and I think Kishimoto knows about his popularity, and is using it to his advantage.
> 
> We can expect his face after a year or so.



I don't think so. Naruto's currently in the final battle with Tobi, and I'd say that, before the battle gets any farther, that goddamn mask MUST come off. So, I think it will probably be a few more weeks until his face is revealed. I think we can all agree that Kishi has been milking this whole "Tobi" charade for WAY too long.


----------



## mrweekend (May 25, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Actually, those "wrinkles" on his right face side could not actually be "wrinkles". Those could actually be from having that boulder fall on him. Notice how we've never seen the left side of Tobi's face, which would be perfectly fine if he were Obito....




Damn, never thought of it that way....that would also fit in with Obito's right eye still being intact/working, as well as the connection between Tobi's right sharingan eye space/time jutsu and kakashi's left eye sharingan kamui jutsu....


Alright, I decided....gotta be Kagami or Obito behind the mask....

I'll even stretch and say that if Tobi is either 1 of them, they're related or known each other :amazed


----------



## thepowerofscience (May 25, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Actually, those "wrinkles" on his right face side could not actually be "wrinkles". Those could actually be from having that boulder fall on him. Notice how we've never seen the left side of Tobi's face, which would be perfectly fine if he were Obito....



So the boulder caused some wrinkles to his skin but his skull was fine.


----------



## Talis (May 25, 2012)

thepowerofscience said:


> So the boulder caused some wrinkles to his skin but his skull was fine.


from this scan

Yeah, see the rock?
It clearly didn't crush/pierce through his head while the lower part of the rock did through his body...


----------



## Jon Snow (May 25, 2012)

If it's anyone but Obito I'm gonna be sorely disappointed.

Why?

Seriously, would any one of you feel ANYTHING if it was some old, random Uchiha? Seriously you guys, I don't even know who the fuck Kagami is, THERE'S NO HYPE HERE


----------



## NW (May 25, 2012)

Jon Snow said:


> If it's anyone but Obito I'm gonna be sorely disappointed.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Seriously, would any one of you feel ANYTHING if it was some old, random Uchiha? Seriously you guys, I don't even know who the fuck Kagami is, THERE'S NO HYPE HERE



to be honest, Obito definately makes the most sense in terms of plot twist value.


----------



## Shaz (May 25, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I don't think so. Naruto's currently in the final battle with Tobi, and I'd say that, before the battle gets any farther, that goddamn mask MUST come off. So, I think it will probably be a few more weeks until his face is revealed. I think we can all agree that Kishi has been milking this whole "Tobi" charade for WAY too long.



Sometimes I wonder if Kishimoto had a thing for strippers, constant teasing and milking, never revealing the mystery.

I was going to go into deep analysis but I just think there's no point.


----------



## Talis (May 25, 2012)

You will have to wait a few more months lol, Itachi and Madara has to meet each other and confirm that the long haired masked man was indeed the real Madara, they will reveal everything of the Uchiha's night, then there will be definately nothing left to to reveal about Madara which means the mask can go down out of Tobi's face.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 25, 2012)

Or we can just skip all that because none of it is true.


----------



## Shaz (May 25, 2012)

We'll see when it is revealed.


----------



## jacamo (May 26, 2012)

Strauss said:


> I don't see how it's so impossible that the Elder Son could live for a few centuries, we're talking about a story where people can teleport giant toads and make forests grow in a matter of seconds.



yeh, RS Elder Son is the only other possibility other than Kagami

could be a new character of course



Jon Snow said:


> If it's anyone but Obito I'm gonna be sorely disappointed.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Seriously, would any one of you feel ANYTHING if it was some old, random Uchiha? Seriously you guys, I don't even know who the fuck Kagami is, THERE'S NO HYPE HERE



more people are going to be disappointed if Tobi = Obito

that theory has waaaaaaay too many plotholes



loool3 said:


> Itachi and Madara has to meet each other and confirm that the long haired masked man was indeed the real Madara



sorry man thats not going to happen


----------



## Escargon (May 26, 2012)

Hey guys look at this:

Link removed

No bandage around the head.

Link removed

Bandage around the head.

This might mean Tobi did something to his head before heading out again? What could he have done to his head?


Or is he using those wrappings as a cool effect, like Sasuke did? That would just be retarded.. he got a mask.. why would he need it..


----------



## Talis (May 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> sorry man thats not going to happen


It will happen, maybe next chapter even.
Anyways it will happen before the scene changes.
If not then ur right.


----------



## NW (May 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> yeh, RS Elder Son is the only other possibility other than Kagami
> *Elder Son looks absolutley nothing like Tobi.*
> 
> 
> ...


The bolded.


----------



## †obitobi (May 26, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Hey guys look at this:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



Perhaps it's a powerful Byakugan. This would explain how locating Naruto and Sasuke from apparently far away is "within his power".

Also, he wouldn't need to reveal it for it to work.


----------



## NW (May 26, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> Perhaps it's a powerful Byakugan. This would explain how locating Naruto and Sasuke from apparently far away is "within his power".
> 
> Also, he wouldn't need to reveal it for it to work.


I really don't think that's it. I mean, maybe he just has the bandages there for the heck of it. There's no way that Tobi would try and implant a byakugan into his head. I mean, if he tried to do that, it would kill him.


----------



## jacamo (May 26, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> The bolded.



what? do you even know what a plothole is?

strictly speaking all you need is 1 plothole to disprove a theory


> A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.




a plothole is something that cant be explained... its something that completely contradicts the plot and the Obito theory has several plotholes 

the timeline, for example: 

(1) the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, but it has always been sealed since Mito at VOTE... so how could the Kyuubi recognise someone like Obito who was much younger than Kushina? Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Madara's era otherwise the timeline is a complete contradiction

(2) Madara's quote "This is HIS doing" - Madara knows who Tobi but he was dead before Obito was even born, so its impossible for Madara to know who Obito is... again, the timeline is a complete contradiction


----------



## Mateush (May 26, 2012)

*TobiUchiha111:* If you really want to know who Tobi is, so he simply is Madara, because it's the highest possible. So you shouldn't worry, because I *promise* you that he is Madara, but he doesn't have same body so it may be Obito or whoever.


----------



## NW (May 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> what? do you even know what a plothole is?
> 
> strictly speaking all you need is 1 plothole to disprove a theory
> 
> ...



Again, these are only currently considered plotholes because there is not yet an explanation. If Kishi gives reasons for how tobi is Obito and how these things occured, then It's not a plothole. So, I'm still betting on either Obito or Kagami. He doesn't even look like anyone else.



Mateush said:


> *TobiUchiha111:* If you really want to know who Tobi is, so he simply is Madara, because it's the highest possible. So you shouldn't worry, because I *promise* you that he is Madara, but he doesn't have same body so it may be Obito or whoever.



But, how can he be Madara if his soul is impure ressurected? Don't give me that soul splitting crap cuz you know it's not true. There can't be half a soul! Also, Kabuto said that he was unsure if the "Fake Madara" would follow the plan. So, you're saying that Madara betrayed himself?! LMFAO Also, Kabuto called Tobi a "Fake madara" this just further confirms that Tobi is not Madara.


----------



## jacamo (May 26, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Again, these are only currently considered plotholes because there is not yet an explanation. If Kishi gives reasons for how tobi is Obito and how these things occured, then It's not a plothole. So, I'm still betting on either Obito or Kagami. He doesn't even look like anyone else.



you dont get it, the point is the Obito plotholes can NEVER be explained... the timeline plotholes will ALWAYS be there, there is NO explanation for it

if there was an explanation, it wouldnt be considered a plothole

Obito theory is impossible for that reason


----------



## Mateush (May 26, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> But, how can he be Madara if his soul is impure ressurected? Don't give me that soul splitting crap cuz you know it's not true. There can't be half a soul! Also, Kabuto said that he was unsure if the "Fake Madara" would follow the plan. So, you're saying that Madara betrayed himself?! LMFAO Also, Kabuto called Tobi a "Fake madara" this just further confirms that Tobi is not Madara.



I don't think it was split, just like Muu, but in some way he has to be Madara, otherwise Kishi did a very bad job for "foreshadowing" Tobi misleaded us into believe that he's Madara. That's why I hope he wouldn't pull up random like Obito, because it's asspul for canon.

From now it's painful obviously that Tobi in some way is Madara.


----------



## NW (May 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you dont get it, the point is the Obito plotholes can NEVER be explained... the timeline plotholes will ALWAYS be there, there is NO explanation for it
> 
> if there was an explanation, it wouldnt be considered a plothole
> 
> Obito theory is impossible for that reason


 ......Fuck, you've got a point. Well, since it was either obito or Kagami, I guess this means it's Kagami  Although, the Kyuubi may have just assumed Tobi was Madara like everyone else did. And we have no record of when madara died. Give me good explanations for these and I'l drop the Obito theory.


----------



## Mantux31 (May 26, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> ......Fuck, you've got a point. Well, since it was either obito or Kagami, I guess this means it's Kagami  Although, the Kyuubi may have just assumed Tobi was Madara like everyone else did. And we have no record of when madara died. Give me good explanations for these and I'l drop the Obito theory.



Obito was 15 or so when Tobi attacked Minato.


----------



## NW (May 26, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I don't think it was split, just like Muu, but in some way he has to be Madara, otherwise Kishi did a very bad job for "foreshadowing" Tobi misleaded us into believe that he's Madara. That's why I hope he wouldn't pull up random like Obito, because it's asspul for canon.
> 
> From now it's painful obviously that Tobi in some way is Madara.



Foreshadowing?! He fucking outright stated he was Madara! It wasn't foreshadowing. Kishi was just tricking us into thinking he was Madara. If anything, there's more foreshadowing that he's Obito or Kagami. To be honest, if handled correctly Obito or Kagami could work. And also, I'd be horrible if he was Madara. It'd be so anti-climactic and pointless.



Mantux31 said:


> Obito was 15 or so when Tobi attacked Minato.


So?


----------



## son_michael (May 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you dont get it, the point is the Obito plotholes can NEVER be explained... the timeline plotholes will ALWAYS be there, there is NO explanation for it
> 
> if there was an explanation, it wouldnt be considered a plothole
> 
> Obito theory is impossible for that reason




authors can come up with explanations for anything. Just because we fans label something as "plothole" doesn't mean that it really is, it just means that we can't see how it makes sense.

You need only see Tobiuchiha111's incredibly long post about obito evidence in part 1 of this thread to realize that kishi has been hinting obito since the beginning. There is far more evidence for the theory then there is against it. Timeline inconsistencies don't mean jack shit if the author has a way around them. 

every theory here has "plot holes" or at the very least things that don't make sense. stop claiming with absolute certainty that you know anything because NONE OF US KNOW  WHAT KISHI IS THINKING.


everyone's attempts to discredit any theories or prove their theories are correct: is completely pointless. Each and every one of us has a theory and all we can do is search for supporting evidence, nothing can be proven or dis-proven


----------



## †obitobi (May 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> what? do you even know what a plothole is?
> 
> strictly speaking all you need is 1 plothole to disprove a theory
> 
> ...



When you consider all that's possible, as opposed to just what you personally may accept, then all of these "plot holes" are rather easily rendered down to just differing opinions, in my opinion.



jacamo said:


> (1) the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, but it has always been sealed since Mito at VOTE... so how could the Kyuubi recognise someone like Obito who was much younger than Kushina? Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Madara's era otherwise the timeline is a complete contradiction


The Kyuubi, in my opinion, thought that he was actually Madara. He did the same thing to Sasuke when he entered into Naruto's subconscious.

As far as his "older" body when he fought with Minato,

Tobi has been indicated to be made of Zetsu parts to at least some degree. It's possible that a significant portion of his body is made of Zetsu parts, in which case making it possible that Obito could've only appeared older because of his body being made of Zetsu parts.



jacamo said:


> (2) Madara's quote "This is HIS doing" - Madara knows who Tobi but he was dead before Obito was even born, so its impossible for Madara to know who Obito is... again, the timeline is a complete contradiction


There's nothing that states that Madara was not alive before Obito was born.

There's also nothing that clearly states that he was referring to Tobi, as opposed to Orochimaru.


----------



## Talis (May 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> what? do you even know what a plothole is?
> 
> strictly speaking all you need is 1 plothole to disprove a theory
> 
> ...


You disprove things for Obito theory which also makes no sense for the Kagami, on top of that who was Obito's master?
Minato.
Who was his wife? Kushina.
Where was Kyuubi, in Kushina's belly.
Obito was obviously around Minato and Kushina whole time which means he knew about his chakra or something.
And even then Kyuubi might have thought Tobi being Hashirama because he had his Dna''s.
And Kyuubi was sealed there when Kushina was about 12 years old.


----------



## jacamo (May 26, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> ......Fuck, you've got a point. Well, since it was either obito or Kagami, I guess this means it's Kagami  Although, the Kyuubi may have just assumed Tobi was Madara like everyone else did. And we have no record of when madara died. Give me good explanations for these and I'l drop the Obito theory.





Kyuubi recognised Madara's chakra instantly... but he also recognised Tobi after it was extracted from Kushina, that tells me they are different people

Madara died before we first see Nagato with the Rinnegan, because those were Madara's eyes, as he said "I died shortly after awakening these eyes"... so it has to be around that time frame



son_michael said:


> authors can come up with explanations for anything. Just because we fans label something as "plothole" doesn't mean that it really is, it just means that we can't see how it makes sense.
> 
> You need only see Tobiuchiha111's incredibly long post about obito evidence in part 1 of this thread to realize that kishi has been hinting obito since the beginning. There is far more evidence for the theory then there is against it. Timeline inconsistencies don't mean jack shit if the author has a way around them.
> 
> ...



there is more evidence against Obito than there is for it

sure, Kishi can make Tobi Obito if he wants... but he has already written himself into a corner and the plotholes will remain regardless



Tobitobi said:


> When you consider all that's possible, as opposed to just what you personally may accept, then all of these "plot holes" are rather easily rendered down to just differing opinions, in my opinion.
> 
> 
> The Kyuubi, in my opinion, thought that he was actually Madara. He did the same thing to Sasuke when he entered into Naruto's subconscious.
> ...



no, the Kyuubi recognised Madara's chakra, they are different people

nothing explains the timeline disparity between Madara and Obito

too busy now, but i could come up with 10 plotholes if i wanted to



loool3 said:


> you disprove things for Obito theory which also makes no sense for the Kagami, on top of that who was Obito's master?
> Minato.
> Who was his wife? Kushina.
> Where was Kyuubi, in Kushina's belly.
> ...


Kagami has ZERO plotholes


----------



## †obitobi (May 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> no, the Kyuubi recognised Madara's chakra, they are different people


Kurama was possibly confused, in my opinion. Again, he makes the same mistake when Sasuke entered into Naruto's subconscious before he realizes that he's not who he thought that Sasuke was at first.

In fact, to suggest otherwise would be begging the question. There's no reason to assume that Tobi is actually Madara since Madara is confirmed dead and Tobi says that he is no one.



jacamo said:


> nothing explains the timeline disparity between Madara and Obito



If you're actually going to consider the facts then I'd be happy to try to explain why there's no logical objections to Obito being Tobi.

*edit:* On second thought, I'd rather not discuss this with you if you're not really interested in listening and considering everything fairly. You seem strongly opposed (and a little belligerent) to the said idea for whatever reason as opposed to just not convinced and open to new insight, so if you can calm down, then we can discuss the topic fairly.


----------



## NW (May 26, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> If you're actually going to consider the facts then I'd be happy to try to explain why there's logical objections to Obito being Tobi.
> 
> *edit:* On second thought, I'd rather not discuss this with you if you're not really interested in listening and considering everything fairly. You seem strongly opposed (and a little belligerent) to the said idea for whatever reason as opposed to just not convinced and open to new insight, so if you can calm down, then we can discuss the topic fairly.



I'm not jacamo but I'd love to hear how Madara could have lived to see Obito. Any proof would be helpful since I just don't see a way that could have happened.


----------



## Talis (May 26, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I'm not jacamo but I'd love to hear how Madara could have lived to see Obito. Any proof would be helpful since I just don't see a way that could have happened.


[sp=Over-sized Image][/sp]


[sp=Over-sized Image][/sp]

1s panel happend around the Kyuubi's night, so Madara was around.


----------



## Mantux31 (May 26, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> So?



So Tobi is a grown man then


----------



## †obitobi (May 26, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I'm not jacamo but I'd love to hear how Madara could have lived to see Obito. Any proof would be helpful since I just don't see a way that could have happened.



We can assume that Obito is about 10 years younger than Nagato. Simply put, it doesn't sound like too much of a stretch to say that he could've lived to see Obito if he knew Nagato.

Substance for this would be Hashirama's regeneration ability that could've possibly sustained him for a while, since he apparently had a huge amount of chakra that seems adequate for this ability. The fact that he seemed to be in a healthy body and relatively young looking when he died despite supposedly roughly being in his 50's when Nagato was born supports this, in my opinion.

Pretta path also seems like a sustaining quality.

Correct me if any of this is incorrect.


----------



## NW (May 26, 2012)

loool3 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Tobitobi said:


> We can assume that Obito is about 10 years younger than Nagato. Simply put, it doesn't sound like too much of a stretch to say that he could've lived to see Obito if he knew Nagato.
> 
> Substance for this would be Hashirama's regeneration ability that could've possibly sustained him for a while, since he apparently had a huge amount of chakra that seems adequate for this ability. The fact that he seemed to be in a healthy body and relatively young looking when he died despite supposedly roughly being in his 50's when Nagato was born supports this, in my opinion.
> 
> ...



Oh, I see. Thanks for the info. Now that I have more proof that Madara could have lived to see Obito, I don't have a problem at all believing in Tobi being Obito.



Mantux31 said:


> So Tobi is a grown man then


Kakashi and Guy were very tall for their age during that attack. About as tall as a full grown adult. Plus, Itachi was like 14 when he killed the Uchiha clan, yet he looked like a full grown man. So, there is no reason why Obito couldn't have been that tall.


----------



## jacamo (May 26, 2012)

thats it i've had enough of you jokers

im going to come up with 10 Obito plotholes when i have time

*thats right, TEN!!! watch this space*



loool3 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



how do you know that happened around Kyuubi's night? you're making assumptions, that flashback cant be dated

and that guy is Tobi, not Madara


----------



## NW (May 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> thats it i've had enough of you jokers
> 
> im going to come up with 10 Obito plotholes when i have time
> 
> *thats right, TEN!!! watch this space*


Kay, then. Make sure to post them ASAP. I can't wait to refute tham all


----------



## Talis (May 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> thats it i've had enough of you jokers
> 
> im going to come up with 10 Obito plotholes when i have time
> 
> ...


Troll?
Tobi was telling Madara's whole flashbacks.
Did you see any panel in the flashback of Madara's history where Tobi was in it?
No, they were all Madara's and that guy also standing with Itachi.

Assumption?
Whats your Kagami based on then? yeah assumptions like you even admitted yourself  a few post ago.

Minato should be around his 30-40s which means Nagato was also around his 20s on that night, which also means that Akatsuki was just created, which also means that Kisame just joined it.

Come with 10 good plotholes btw, plots like ''Tobi is way to old to be Obito, he was too tall being Obito or such weaks plots won't gonna work on me''.

''looks like you have a really hard time to find these 10 plotholes since you still didn't post them lol''.


----------



## NW (May 26, 2012)

*o__O*



loool3 said:


> Troll?
> Tobi was telling Madara's whole flashbacks.
> Did you see any panel in the flashback of Madara's history where Tobi was in it?
> No, they were all Madara's and that guy also standing with Itachi.


Holy crap! I never even thought about that! I 100% believe this theory now.


----------



## Talis (May 26, 2012)

jacamo said:


> yeh, RS Elder Son is the only other possibility other than Kagami
> 
> could be a new character of course
> 
> ...


Hahahahaha.
Wait let me guess your argument whenever Tobi will be revealed as Obito, ''he was Kagami all the time, but Kishi made him turn into Obito since the last year''.
It's not like Kishi is changing his identity 24/7.


----------



## Shaz (May 26, 2012)

I don't believe that it could be anyone other than Obito or Kagami.

First of all why would Madara go into hiding? Because he was defeated by Hashirama and wanted to plot revenge. Who would he appoint for this task? Obito or Kagami. The reason is that Obito was away from the village and an Uchiha, thus Madara could possibly trust him, and Kagami was also missing during Kyuubi's attack. The one thing I don't understand with Obito is motive as being just a vessel or controlled would not be a satisfying person as Tobi. 

Also what confuses me is:
- "Tobi" was seen with short hair during Minato's fight (Before the Uchiha massacre), claimed to be Madara by Minato
- "Tobi" was then seen by Itachi before the Uchiha massacre, with long hair, claiming to be Madara himself
- "Tobi" was seen by Kisame with long hair, claiming to be Madara himself.
- "Tobi" we see today hair short hair again.

*EDIT:* It seems at times that the Real Madara Uchiha instructed Tobi or made it so that it was believable that Tobi was Madara Uchiha, not that Tobi just made it up for his own use. It must of been so that no one underestimated Tobi, and couldn't of stopped his scheme because they were wary about his skill. Now that Madara Uchiha returns, Tobi feels it is unneeded. Even if it is so that Tobi might be stronger than Madara Uchiha himself, the name of Madara Uchiha itself has a strong meaning, to strike fear into the enemy, as stated by Tsunade. Tobi's strength wouldn't of matched up to the name of Madara Uchiha. It was as if Madara instructed/supported this impersonation to stall an attack on Tobi, so that their plan wouldn't fail, and by the time it became a risk, Madara returned. However I do not think Tobi is weak, he is cunning, a lot less arrogant than Madara, a lot more collected. I think he is insanely dangerous, however just hasn't got the same fame.

This leads me to believe that Madara and Tobi were operating together for a good few years, which means both must of been alive just before the creation of Akatsuki in which Madara may of died (However one thing I question for this is that Madara says "So Nagato has grown up" this means he wasn't around just before the making of Akatsuki, but only around about when Nagato and Co. were found by Jiraiya). Madara helped in creating Akatsuki, and allowed Tobi to use his name as power, and Zetsu as his guidance. Sometimes I do believe there can be a chance it is Tobi, as Madara seemed to have a lot of help and aid in moulding him into what he is today, as if he was too young/weak to do it himself, a bit like a mentor.

The other part is Kagami, as I've posted before, being in the Second's squad, his character gone missing / assumed dead - Seems a bit of a loose end to me.



loool3 said:


> It's not like Kishi is changing his identity 24/7.



I don't think he's changed his identity at all. Everything we've seen has happened for a reason. Almost like a code, which is unbreakable. A lot of possibilities. An unanswerable "Why?".


----------



## Talis (May 26, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I don't believe that it could be anyone other than Obito or Kagami.
> 
> First of all why would Madara go into hiding? Because he was defeated by Hashirama and wanted to plot revenge. Who would he appoint for this task? Obito or Kagami. The reason is that Obito was away from the village and an Uchiha, thus Madara could possibly trust him, and Kagami was also missing during Kyuubi's attack. The one thing I don't understand with Obito is motive as being just a vessel or controlled would not be a satisfying person as Tobi.
> 
> ...


And notice also, Madara created Akatuski to collect Bijuu's.
1: Why? Was Tobito to weak back then?
2: Long haired masked man (real Madara) created the Akatuski for reason 1, so it's obvious that he was inviting people like Kisame, wait, then where did Itachi get the idea from to join Akatsuki? Long haired real Madara also.


----------



## Shaz (May 26, 2012)

Itachi has always said that he has been suspicious of Tobi, perhaps due to the switch from the real Madara Uchiha to "Tobi".

I'm sure Itachi wouldn't of trusted Madara Uchiha to help train him before the massacre of the Uchiha, if he thought it wasn't the real him. When he finally got to Akatsuki he met Tobi, and felt suspicious of him as it just didn't seem the same as the Madara he met (Long haired), remembering Itachi is an Uchiha, so he would know straight away that there was something dodgy about this Tobi in comparison to who he had met first.
However Itachi didn't really care, and remained in Akatsuki, for Sasuke (So he'd come avenge Uchiha, and gain true power and Itachi would be at peace).


----------



## NW (May 26, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I don't believe that it could be anyone other than Obito or Kagami.
> 
> First of all why would Madara go into hiding? Because he was defeated by Hashirama and wanted to plot revenge. Who would he appoint for this task? Obito or Kagami. The reason is that Obito was away from the village and an Uchiha, thus Madara could possibly trust him, and Kagami was also missing during Kyuubi's attack. The one thing I don't understand with Obito is motive as being just a vessel or controlled would not be a satisfying person as Tobi.
> 
> ...


In terms of Obito's motive, I believe that Rin's death and, indirectly, Kakashi's failure to protect her, may be one of the reasons for his change of heart. There is also other things such as war causing all these terrible things to happen. Not to mention that Madara could have mindfucked him by telling him about himself and other things. Similar to how Tobi corrupted Sasuke. It's like a chain of hatred. Madara passes his hatred onto Obito who then passes it onto Sasuke, preserving the cycle. This is probably the way that the curse of hatred spreads, or something else entirely. That's regarding Obito's motive. I also find it plausible to be Kagami. As I agree that there are alot of suspicious things about him. Although, it may also be possible that Kagami is in on the Moon's Eye Plan, and is working with Tobi, but is not actually tobi himself. Either way, I think it would be pretty cool to see more of Kagami.



MissinqNin said:


> Itachi has always said that he has been suspicious of Tobi, perhaps due to the switch from the real Madara Uchiha to "Tobi".
> 
> I'm sure Itachi wouldn't of trusted Madara Uchiha to help train him before the massacre of the Uchiha, if he thought it wasn't the real him. When he finally got to Akatsuki he met Tobi, and felt suspicious of him as it just didn't seem the same as the Madara he met (Long haired), remembering Itachi is an Uchiha, so he would know straight away that there was something dodgy about this Tobi in comparison to who he had met first.
> However Itachi didn't really care, and remained in Akatsuki, for Sasuke (So he'd come avenge Uchiha, and gain true power and Itachi would be at peace).


Agreed 100%


----------



## †obitobi (May 27, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> In terms of Obito's motive, I believe that Rin's death and, indirectly, Kakashi's failure to protect her, may be one of the reasons for his change of heart.



I believe that Izanami made it that much easier for the Tobi = Obito hypothesis in terms of motive. If Madara used Izanami to recreate a moment from before he parted with team Minato, after he is found by Madara, then apparently all that he'd have to do is to wait until Obito accepts his ideals for him to escape Izanami. 

Please, correct me if I'm incorrect.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 27, 2012)

Spending however long stuck in Izanami could also make that "_Do you have any idea how long I've been waiting for this moment?_" comment relevant instead of it just being a lie or an exaggeration.


----------



## NW (May 27, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Spending however long stuck in Izanami could also make that "_Do you have any idea how long I've been waiting for this moment?_" comment relevant instead of it just being a lie or an exaggeration.


Well, it's definitely a new take on his motive. My only problem with it though, is that it would all basically be because of a jutsu. I think that Obito's motive should be more centered around his own free will. I can actually think of a few reasons why Obito could have freely turned to the "dark side".


----------



## Talis (May 27, 2012)

Everything hints to Obito even the; Chapter 346
There was something in his eye thing, seriously we never saw any character which had such thing.


----------



## NW (May 27, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Everything hints to Obito even the; this scan
> There was something in his eye thing, seriously we never saw any character which had such thing.


Yeah, and Obito seemed pretty honest. Even though he had goggles on, I don't think he would lie about having something in his eye. Maybe somehow he had already unknowingly awakened space-time in his right eye o__O (Notice how he only puts eye drops in the right one.)


----------



## son_michael (May 27, 2012)

hell, it could be revealed that obito teleported out of the rocks like tobi does. The possibilities are endless.


----------



## Escargon (May 27, 2012)

son_michael said:


> hell, it could be revealed that obito teleported out of the rocks like tobi does. The possibilities are endless.



Or Madara saved Obito and gave him his body as a replacement with Rinnegan or something:



Though i belivie Tobi is a Senju.. he can equip Hashirama tissue without any problem and he can use Izanagi. Nawaki perhaps? Hes old enough i guess.


----------



## NW (May 27, 2012)

Okay, well, in Japanese, Tobi's name spelled backwards is "Bito". Now, I just translated Bito into english via Google Translate, and the translations I got were "betrayal", "arbitration", and "vitrified". The "betrayal" one is the most relevant in my opinion. Now, Obito deeply cared for his comrades, and would never abandon, or *betray* them. Now, if Tobi is Obito, then Obito obviously has had a complete turn around, so "betrayal" would suit him. Another meaning, "arbitration", means to get a party to come to a mutual agreement. This could represent how Tobi manipulates people to think the same way he does, or how he tried to convince the Kages to hand over Naruto and Bee to him. The last one, "vitrified", means, to be like glass. A characteristic of glass is transparency, which might vaguely relate to Tobi's intangibility. Anyway, I definitely think that this is more support for Tobi being Obito. Especially since we all know how Kishi likes to play around with names.



Escargon said:


> Though i belivie Tobi is a Senju.. he can equip Hashirama tissue without any problem and he can use Izanagi. Nawaki perhaps? Hes old enough i guess.



Nawaki's not old enough at all. Plus, his hair color is light brown, while Tobi's is black. Also, the eyeshape doesn't match. And, Nawaki was killed by a trap. his body was said to be so mutilated that they couldn't even make him out.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 27, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Okay, well, in Japanese, Tobi's name spelled backwards is "Bito". Now, I just translated Bito into english via Google Translate, and the translations I got were "betrayal", "arbitration", and "vitrified". The "betrayal" one is the most relevant in my opinion. Now, Obito deeply cared for his comrades, and would never abandon, or *betray* them. Now, if Tobi is Obito, then Obito obviously has had a complete turn around, so "betrayal" would suit him. Another meaning, "arbitration", means to get a party to come to a mutual agreement. This could represent how Tobi manipulates people to think the same way he does, or how he tried to convince the Kages to hand over Naruto and Bee to him. The last one, "vitrified", means, to be like glass. A characteristic of glass is transparency, which might vaguely relate to Tobi's intangibility. Anyway, I definitely think that this is more support for Tobi being Obito. Especially since we all know how Kishi likes to play around with names.



I wouldn't rely on Google translate period.

The only similarity I think might be relevant is the similarity between how Tobi and Obito are written in kanji form.


----------



## Talis (May 27, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I wouldn't rely on Google translate period.
> 
> The only similarity I think might be relevant is the similarity between how Tobi and Obito are written in kanji form.


Just as how Black and White Zetsus speaking different form of language?


----------



## NW (May 27, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I wouldn't rely on Google translate period.
> 
> The only similarity I think might be relevant is the similarity between how Tobi and Obito are written in kanji form.


Yeah, i guess you're right. Although, if by chance, at least one of those translations ARE correct, then at least it's a little bit of support.





(....Ah fuck, i didn't even notice! 30 pages already?! *sniff* These threads grow up so fast)


----------



## Rabbit and Rose (May 27, 2012)

Read my signature,
ITS obitobi


----------



## †obitobi (May 27, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I wouldn't rely on Google translate period.
> 
> The only similarity I think might be relevant is the similarity between how Tobi and Obito are written in kanji form.



Don't believe that I've seen that before. Another thing that stands out for Tobi being Obito to me is the timing of the Kakashi chapters. I believe that I've noted this before, but when you really think about it, ask yourself how does the flashback really progress the main-story.

As a simple flashback, it, in my opinion, seems like just a filler with no real purpose other than to illuminate Kakash's past, which doesn't seem all that relevant to the main story-line. Unless it has something as relevant as Tobi's past within it, then it doesn't make sense, at least from what seems like a story writing pov, why it was _*where*_ it was (at the _*very*_ _*beginning*_ of pt. 2).


----------



## NW (May 27, 2012)

Here's a quick batch of evidence of Tobi being Obito:
*Spoiler*: __ 



*
Tobi has Space-Time Ninjutsu in his RIGHT EYE ONLY. Which is the eye Obito would have had it in if he survived.

Tobi and Obito have the exact sam hairstyle. (I know that doesn't sound like much but an manga/anime character's hair is usually used to distinquish that person from other people.)

In Japanese, Tobi spelled backwards is "Bito".

Kishi has a theme for main villains, this theme is that, there is a person who was once on a team paralleling Team 7, but then something happened that made that person go evil, and that person is usually responsible for the death of his master. Obito fits this theme perfectly.

"Kakashi's Year" keeps on getting delayed as Tobi's big reveal does.

Tobi's left face side has no wrinkles/scars(speculative), while his right face side does(probably from that huge-ass boulder.)

The long haired Masked Man is probably the Real Madara and not Tobi, which means that Madara would have lived long enough to have met Obito.

When Tobi fought Minato, Kakashi and Guy were very tall for their age, so Obito vould have been too, especially since he was TALLER than Kakashi in Gaiden. I think Kishi made Kakashi and Guy that tall in order to hint more at Tobi being Obito.

When tobi attacked the village, Kakashi felt a dark chill in the air. Maybe Kakshi and Obito's eyes are still 'connected" so he can feel when Tobi's close sometimes.(This is kinda crap evidence, but, what the heck.)

Someone needs to be there to recognize tobi when the mask comes off, right? Well, Look, Kakashi's there right now helping in the fight with Tobi. (hint, hint.)
*




That's all for now. When I have more patience, I'll add some more evidence to the list.


----------



## †obitobi (May 27, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Here's a quick batch of evidence of Tobi being Obito:
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



I'd also like to add that it is possible that Orochimaru had given Obito Zetsu parts which only made Obito appear older, so as to promote effectiveness.


----------



## NW (May 27, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> I'd also like to add that it is possible that Orochimaru had given Obito Zetsu parts which only made Obito appear older, so as to promote effectiveness.


I personally think it would make more sense if Madara gave obito Zetsu parts. I mean, he IS the one who created him after all. (Well, you could argue that tobi did but that has yet to be confirmed.) I doubt getting Zetsu parts would increase his growth because I'm pretty sure he only has it in his arms.


----------



## Talis (May 27, 2012)

We gonna be trolled so hard if Madara used Ino's mind possesion jutsu on Obito lol in some eternal way.


----------



## †obitobi (May 27, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I personally think it would make more sense if Madara gave obito Zetsu parts. I mean, he IS the one who created him after all. (Well, you could argue that tobi did but that has yet to be confirmed.) I doubt getting Zetsu parts would increase his growth because I'm pretty sure he only has it in his arms.



I don't think that it made his own body grow, as opposed to him effectively just getting a new adult looking Zetsu body. Maybe that's where the bolts on his outfit come into play.

I believe that Orochimaru created Zetsu with the intent to modify Yamato's cells, and then gave Zetsu to Tobi later.


----------



## NW (May 27, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> I don't think that it made his own body grow, as opposed to him effectively just getting a new adult looking Zetsu body. Maybe that's where the bolts on his outfit come into play.
> 
> I believe that Orochimaru created Zetsu with the intent to modify Yamato's cells, and then gave Zetsu to Tobi later.


Hmm. nice theory. But, it would have to be obito's original body that was crushed by the rock, due to the wrinkles/scars on the right side of his face. Were you talking about oro giving him a new body, or just new body parts. I can agree with the part about the new body parts made from zetsu goo but, I don't think it would apply to the legs as well.


----------



## gftwist (May 28, 2012)

*Probably alrady stated but could tobi be uchiha shisui*

I mean think about it he has one eye untill he get's the rinnigan the face shape and details actually suggest its uchiha shisui and that's prob why he get's so twisted about peoples eye jutsu plus it's the eye to manipulate people he's lost and we all know that each eye has a different power so it's possible that he could time travel himself. that's my guess


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 28, 2012)

Back from vacation, are there any new hints or starting points which make reading all the posts worthwhile?


----------



## Golden Circle (May 28, 2012)

gftwist said:


> I mean think about it he has one eye untill he get's the rinnigan the face shape and details actually suggest its uchiha shisui and that's prob why he get's so twisted about peoples eye jutsu plus it's the eye to manipulate people he's lost and we all know that each eye has a different power so it's possible that he could time travel himself. that's my guess


Sorry bro. The Uchiha flashback at the end of part one confirmed that Shisui died.


----------



## NW (May 28, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Back from vacation, are there any new hints or starting points which make reading all the posts worthwhile?


Eh, just some new discoveries regarding Tobi and Obito's name and some more proof for the Uchiha Kagami theory. Other than that, not much.


----------



## Talis (May 28, 2012)

Rainbow Dash said:


> Sorry bro. The Uchiha flashback at the end of part one confirmed that Shisui died.


He could have faked his death with easy, it was insanely interesting too see that Shisui's only eye's MS was active when he told Itachi about that Danzou took his last eye and when he was up to give it to him and suicide.


----------



## gershwin (May 28, 2012)

gftwist said:


> I mean think about it he has one eye untill he get's the rinnigan the face shape and details actually suggest its uchiha shisui and that's prob why he get's so twisted about peoples eye jutsu plus it's the eye to manipulate people he's lost and we all know that each eye has a different power so it's possible that he could time travel himself. that's my guess




few times he was thinking to himself  "shisui`s eye". Why would Shisui refer to himself in the third person?


----------



## Escargon (May 28, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Okay, well, in Japanese, Tobi's name spelled backwards is "Bito". Now, I just translated Bito into english via Google Translate, and the translations I got were "betrayal", "arbitration", and "vitrified". The "betrayal" one is the most relevant in my opinion. Now, Obito deeply cared for his comrades, and would never abandon, or *betray* them. Now, if Tobi is Obito, then Obito obviously has had a complete turn around, so "betrayal" would suit him. Another meaning, "arbitration", means to get a party to come to a mutual agreement. This could represent how Tobi manipulates people to think the same way he does, or how he tried to convince the Kages to hand over Naruto and Bee to him. The last one, "vitrified", means, to be like glass. A characteristic of glass is transparency, which might vaguely relate to Tobi's intangibility. Anyway, I definitely think that this is more support for Tobi being Obito. Especially since we all know how Kishi likes to play around with names.
> 
> 
> 
> Nawaki's not old enough at all. Plus, his hair color is light brown, while Tobi's is black. Also, the eyeshape doesn't match. And, Nawaki was killed by a trap. his body was said to be so mutilated that they couldn't even make him out.



I was just joking but youre kinda right.

Tobi got two faces and Kabuto took Tobis hair to ressurect Madara. He propably got tissue from Jiraiya and Shishui too cause when Kabuto mentoned them Tobi said "dont push your luck." both the face and hair color could bw irrelevant, Tobi could even be Jiraiya with Madara cells on him.

I suggest you all to read chapter 510 and ask why Kishi shadowed half of his face.

I want you all to understand why Kishi always showed Tobis left face. Cause its Madaras face. Kishi didnt only call Tobi Madara, he even showed it to make sure we know it IS Madaras face wether its him or implanted but it turned out to be the opposite according to the theories popping up. Tobi is half Madara, why do people refuse to accept it? Danzo got Shishui and a face implanted and edo Madara got Hashirama on his chest, tell me why Tobi cant have Madara implanted?

And reread the conversation with Kabuto and Tobi. Now stealing Madara DNA to ress Madara makes sense doesnt it? Look at Kabutos evil face mocking Tobi.


----------



## Moon Fang (May 28, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Tobi got two faces and *Kabuto took Tobis hair to ressurect Madara*. He propably got tissue from Jiraiya and Shishui too cause when Kabuto mentoned them Tobi said "dont push your luck."
> 
> I suggest you to read chapter 510 and ask why Kishi shadowed half of his face.
> 
> ...



Wait, what ?


----------



## jacamo (May 28, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> [*]Tobi has Space-Time Ninjutsu in his RIGHT EYE ONLY. Which is the eye Obito would have had it in if he survived.
> 
> [*]Tobi and Obito have the exact sam hairstyle. (I know that doesn't sound like much but an manga/anime character's hair is usually used to distinquish that person from other people.)
> 
> ...



those are just hints, they arent definitive

the Obito plotholes ARE definitive 

im working on them now, if you can wait 



loool3 said:


> We gonna be trolled so hard if Madara used Ino's mind possesion jutsu on Obito lol in some eternal way.



we finally agree on something 



Crystaltiger said:


> Back from vacation, are there any new hints or starting points which make reading all the posts worthwhile?



Madara saying Izuna died was huge

its definitely Kagami now





Escargon said:


> I want you all to understand why Kishi always showed Tobis left face. Cause its Madaras face. Kishi didnt only call Tobi Madara, he even showed it to make sure we know it IS Madaras face wether its him or implanted but it turned out to be the opposite according to the theories popping up. Tobi is half Madara, why do people refuse to accept it? Danzo got Shishui and a face implanted and edo Madara got Hashirama on his chest, tell me why Tobi cant have Madara implanted?



very possible


----------



## NW (May 28, 2012)

Can't wait for those Obito plotholes. I can't wait to prove them all wrong! MWAHAHA!!! MWAHAHAHAHAH!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *cough* *cough* ahem, anyway, yeah...


----------



## Shaz (May 28, 2012)

Chill out. Tobi is trolling you more than your trolling each other with indications of plotholes.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 28, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Eh, just some new discoveries regarding Tobi and Obito's name and some more proof for the Uchiha Kagami theory. Other than that, not much.



Ok thank you. Ofc I read the last chapter, where is that unbelievable Kagami proof O.o



jacamo said:


> Madara saying Izuna died was huge
> 
> its definitely Kagami now



I wouldn't say that. Still plenty of other possibilities.


----------



## Talis (May 28, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Ok thank you. Ofc I read the last chapter, where is that unbelievable Kagami proof O.o


Some random fanfic stories (video) is his proof. 
Like ''Madara was Kagami's son, Kagami teached Shisui mindcontroling and some more funny things''.


----------



## Shaz (May 28, 2012)

Some time ago, Tobi's identity was interesting, now it is so milked it is dry and pointless, almost to the point I don't care. Kishimoto should stop avoiding the mask coming off.


----------



## jacamo (May 28, 2012)

*11 Obito Plotholes*

chapter references are all from narutobase

*Plothole Number 1: Tobi?s Power Level (chapters 500-504)*
There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That?s just not feasible.

*Plothole Number 2: Personality U-turn (chapter 241 page 19)*
"Of course those in the ninja world who break the rules and regulations are called trash... but those who don?t care about their companions are even worse than trash." Will of Fire talk from Obito. It makes no sense for him to suddenly manifest this unwavering vendetta against Konoha unless Tobi is just using Obito?s body as a vessel, in which case, Tobi isn?t really Obito anyway because his soul and spirit have nothing to do with it.

*Plothole Number 3:  Kushina Quote (chapter 501 page 7)*
"Do you have ANY idea how long I?ve waited for this moment?" It?s a complete contradiction for Obito to say something like that when, hypothetically, he wouldn?t have been alive long enough to make that type of comment because Obito would have been 15 years old if he fought Minato. Tobi has probably had to wait DECADES for the opportunity to extract the Kyuubi from its host.

*Plothole Number 4: Kyuubi recognised Tobi (chapter 501 page 8)*
The Kyuubi actually recognises Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn?t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognise anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara?s generation. 

*Plothole Number 5: Tobi is too tall (chapter 503 page 9)*
Tobi was shown to be adult sized when he fought Minato, chapter 503 page 5. But on page 9, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be much shorter as they are going through adolescence. Obito would have been around that size and is therefore too short to be Tobi. 

*Plothole Number 6: Minato would?ve figured it out (chapter 500-504)*
If Tobi was really Obito, then Minato would have figured it out when they were fighting each other. Obito was Minato?s own student and would have recognised his chakra, but he didn?t.

*Plothole Number 7: This is HIS doing (chapter 560 page 2)*
"This is HIS doing." That means Madara knows exactly who Tobi is, but there is no way Madara could have worked with Obito because Madara had died already. We know this because by the time Nagato gets Madara's Rinnegan from Tobi, Madara is *officially* dead - "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death." (chapter 560 page 15). This is important because Nagato is older than Minato, and Minato is older than Obito. 

*Plothole Number 8: Hashirama Comparison (chapter 462 page 14)*
Tobi says to Naruto "I can see the first Hokage in you." To make that type of comparison Tobi must have known what Hashirama was like as a person. Problem is, Hashirama was dead before Obito was born. 

*Plothole Number 9: During Our Battle (chapter 512 page 9)*
"This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle." Kabuto already revealed the Madara coffin so there was no reason for Tobi to keep lying. So if Tobi actually had a fight with Hashirama there is no way he could be Obito. 

*Plothole Number 10: Too Much Knowledge*
It is impossible for Obito to know so much about the bloody history between the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan before Konoha was even established as a shinobi village. Tobi has to be someone from that generation. It is also impossible for Obito to know so much about Rikudou Sennin, his sons, the Bijuu and the Juubi.

*THE BIGGEST PLOTHOLE OF THEM ALL*

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Plothole Number 11: Nagato is much older than Obito*

Why is this important? Because Tobi GAVE Nagato the Rinnegan. In other words, it is impossible for Obito to have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan because Obito is much younger than Nagato.


----------



## Talis (May 28, 2012)

jacamo said:


> chapter references are all from narutobase
> 
> *Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504)*
> There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.
> ...


1: So what, it doesn't matter, Naruto Sasuke turned also from a small Ninja into a RS within 3-4 years, and besides what power are you talking about?
That coward ''vanishing away'' technique?
Give Sakura that technique and he also will give Minato a hard time.

2: Oh damn this shit again. 
Orochimaru, Sasuke, Itachi, Nagato, Neji, and some more 1000 characters changed their personalities 360 degrees.

3: Yeah the only plothole i agree with.

4: If you believe like that then it's also a plothole for Kagami.
On top of that Kyuubi had 10x more chance in recognizing Obito in compared to Kagami since Kushina was always around Minato which was around with his team also.

5: 1: Zetsu boost his seize, 
2: 13-15 years old Itachi was even tall as Kisame at that bridge conversation when Itachi just joined Akatsuki and partenered op with Kisame, same goes too when Naruto was even tall as his dad when they were talking in his belly.

6: He didn't because Tobi was merged with Hashirama's Dna (Zetsu) which messed his wole chakra up.

7: Long haired masked man was obviously the real Madara, just wait until Edo Madara and Itachi is going to recognize each other and when they are going to reveal dat nights secret. (Which probably will happen really soon since Kabuto is having a really hard time)

8: Hashirama was a good Hokage caring for his village which every single ninja knew. (same goes for Kagami if you don't count on this one)

9: Well can't say pretty much on this since we don't know a lot, but in the worst case this was the plant from ''*Edo Hashirama'' *in part 1. (and again looking from you side this also goes against Kagami)

10: Read some dumb stones and you reveal the whole past, or else Black Zetsus recording obviously gave him the info. (And again this goes against the Kagami theory)

Conclusion: Only 1 serious plothole, and besides all of these goes also against Kagami lol so i don't know what your trying to pointing at anyways.


----------



## jacamo (May 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> 1: So what, it doesn't matter, Naruto Sasuke turned also from a small Ninja into a RS within 3-4 years, and besides what power are you talking about?
> That coward ''vanishing away'' technique?
> Give Sakura that technique and he also will give Minato a hard time.
> 
> ...



none of your explanations are sufficient

oh well.... at least you tried


----------



## Shaz (May 28, 2012)

Remember gents, something which is more deeply defined can easily be counted out. 

Why? The simple reason being there is too much factual information conflicting with non-factual, theories.

The reason I've pointed at Kagami lately, is that due to the lack of factual information, his flexibility allows his character to be a strong candidate for any "surprises", in comparison to every other character which is mentioned as there is too many facts indicating negativity to our developed theories, no matter how much we have developed them, as there can easily be an expansion to a character which is currently is next to undefined, thus those major and usual plot holes we see in each character, are avoided. Period.

Also going directly to the story. A story of character which is in a squad which parallel's Team Kakashi (7) is never left untold, remember that.

Now to believe what you want is up to you, but also remember to gain an impartial theory, we need to eliminate even the slightest of doubts, and we know that most of these theories do contain that doubt, even if it is the slightest.


----------



## NW (May 28, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Ok thank you. Ofc I read the last chapter, where is that unbelievable Kagami proof O.o


I never said that the latest chapter was what the good proof was....



loool3 said:


> Some random fanfic stories (video) is his proof.
> Like ''Madara was Kagami's son, Kagami teached Shisui mindcontroling and some more funny things''.


I just found that video and thought it was interesting. I never said that any of that was fact, just that it was supportive. It's just an assumption of mine that Kagami could POSSIBLY have been Madara's son. Here, one more time, POSSIBLY.



MissinqNin said:


> Some time ago, Tobi's identity was interesting, now it is so milked it is dry and pointless, almost to the point I don't care. Kishimoto should stop avoiding the mask coming off.


Agreed. I'm still interested in his identity but Kishi needs to know that this is getting waaaay too out of hand.



jacamo said:


> chapter references are all from narutobase
> 
> *Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504)*
> There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.
> ...


----------



## Shaz (May 28, 2012)

Also to be clear of OMFGBASHINGOBITO, I'm not. I just can't get around the facts which have been set by Kishimoto, and how they'll be overcome, unless he'll have his Kishi moments and still do it some messed up way.


----------



## Talis (May 28, 2012)

jacamo said:


> none of your explanations are sufficient
> 
> oh well.... at least you tried


I told you not to bother with it since i was expecting the most of these, i simply told them why the points aren't plotholes and i admitted on them which made sense.


----------



## Shaz (May 28, 2012)

Also we must remember, every theory is possible as it _only_ takes the act of pen to paper and imagination to drive the theory into reality.

The final question just becomes: 
_Will it be satisfying?_


----------



## Talis (May 28, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Also we must remember, every theory is possible as it _only_ takes the act of pen to paper and imagination to drive the theory into reality.
> 
> The final question just becomes:
> _Will it be satisfying?_


I think people will be satifisied enough if the mask goes down.


----------



## Shaz (May 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I think people will be satifisied enough if the mask goes down.



A real theorist should really be open to improvements to his theory or even indications of fault, yet I see that lacking quality in a lot of people here, not just you.

It is just that everyone is bashing the theories of one another, yet you can not prove it will be the person you're sure it is, not because of the evidence, but because of Kishimoto being the writer, he will use any twist, or even an unbelievable story to what we've guessed to reveal the man behind the mask. His identity isn't inevitably the person you say or anyone else does, it is in the writers hand, thus treat _nothing_ as a fact.


----------



## Talis (May 28, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> A real theorist should really be open to improvements to his theory or even indications of fault, yet I see that lacking quality in a lot of people here, not just you.
> 
> It is just that everyone is bashing the theories of one another, yet you can not prove it will be the person you're sure it is, not because of the evidence, but because of Kishimoto being the writer, he will use any twist, or even an unbelievable story to what we've guessed to reveal the man behind the mask. His identity isn't inevitably the person you say or anyone else does, it is in the writers hand, thus treat _nothing_ as a fact.


lol, we've been waiting for like how long 5 years?
It's pretty obvious for me that he's Obito even the Kakashis year got delayed 3x for it, and now Kakashi goes there in front of Tobi. 
Anyways i couldn't care less or more anymore if he turns out to be someone else, in either way.


----------



## jacamo (May 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I told you not to bother with it since i was expecting the most of these, i simply told them why the points aren't plotholes and i admitted on them which made sense.



none of your explanations are good enough

any reasonable person would realise this


----------



## Shaz (May 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> lol, we've been waiting for like how long 5 years?
> It's pretty obvious for me that he's Obito even the Kakashis year got delayed 3x for it, and now Kakashi goes there in front of Tobi.
> Anyways i couldn't care less or more anymore if he turns out to be someone else, in either way.



You really think time matters? 

An experienced writer has always got a trick up their sleeve. If it is Obito or not, the real question should be how well the revelation is catered by the writer. It can be Obito or even Gamabunta the toad, it just needs to be well thought out, that's the point.

And because that is the point, quite honestly; retarded and unneeded argument should be excluded, impartiality is required.


----------



## NW (May 28, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> You really think time matters?
> 
> An experienced writer has always got a trick up their sleeve. If it is Obito or not, the real question should be how well the revelation is catered by the writer. It can be Obito or even Gamabunta the toad, it just needs to be well thought out, that's the point.
> 
> And because that is the point, quite honestly; retarded and unneeded argument should be excluded, impartiality is required.


Well, no matter who it is, I'm sure Kishi will make it a good revelation. Besides, one of the main reasons I think it's Obito is because Kishi is writing it and it will turn out how he writes it, (lol, does that make any sense?!) What I mean is, obito fits perfectly into the villain category that Kishi has used for all his main villains so far. Although, that may not be where Kishi wants to take it. Which is why i also support the Kagami theory.


----------



## jacamo (May 28, 2012)

oh by the way TobiUchiha111 i appreciate the response

but i dont feel your explanations explain the plotholes because, just like loool3, you are using very open ended assumptions to try and explain them

i have used quotes and scans to prove how Obito is impossible 



loool3 said:


> lol, we've been waiting for like how long 5 years?
> It's pretty obvious for me that he's Obito even the Kakashis year got delayed 3x for it, and now Kakashi goes there in front of Tobi.
> Anyways i couldn't care less or more anymore if he turns out to be someone else, in either way.



the fact that Kakashi is facing Tobi right now is very interesting, i will give you that... and of course the fact that Kakashi's Kamui is very similar to Tobi's S/T abilities will always attract Obito comparisons

but they still dont explain the plotholes... the numerous quotes... the timeline disparity... the Kyuubi actually recognising Tobi... so on and so forth


----------



## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (May 28, 2012)

Basing your arguments around plotholes is problematic, because the assumption one has to make for that argument to be sound is that the author will not write anything that will create a plothole.

Once you realize that the author CAN write plotholes into the story you realize that you can't say "But he can't do that! It's a plothole!"


----------



## Rankaiten (May 28, 2012)

Tobi=Obito damnit guys we knew that since tobi was introduced!


----------



## Escargon (May 28, 2012)

Rankaiten said:


> Tobi=Obito damnit guys we knew that since tobi was introduced!



Yeah saying "Do you know how long i waited for this" after two years


----------



## Shaz (May 28, 2012)

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> Once you realize that the author CAN write plotholes into the story you realize that you can't say "But he can't do that! It's a plothole!"



Reinforcements arrive 

Sums it up, the writer can do pretty much whatever he wants, no point killing yourself over plot holes, just work on what you have, regardless.


----------



## jacamo (May 28, 2012)

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> Once you realize that the author CAN write plotholes into the story you realize that you can't say "But he can't do that! It's a plothole!"





MissinqNin said:


> Reinforcements arrive
> 
> Sums it up, the writer can do pretty much whatever he wants, no point killing yourself over plot holes, just work on what you have, regardless.



in principle, i agree with both of you

but this isnt just 1 or 2 minor plotholes that can be brushed off such as the Izuna theory, the Obito theory has as many as 10 plotholes... and i maintain that the major plotholes such as the timeline disparity (multiple quotes) and Kyuubi recognising Tobi can never be satisfied, even if Kishi is hell bent on Tobito



Escargon said:


> Yeah saying "Do you know how long i waited for this" after two years



precisely my point... and thats just 1 plothole, among many


----------



## Talis (May 28, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Yeah saying "Do you know how long i waited for this" after two years


It either makes no sense for any candidate actually lol.
I mean Madara; he already had his hands on the Kyuubi if he wanted it he could have take it anytime he want.
Shisui? Was too young probably.
Elder younger sons; They lived like 1000 years ago, they also could have layed their hands on the Bijuu's right after RS died, makes also no sense.
Kagami ''lol'', could have layed his hands on the Kyuubi at the moment Hashirama/Tobirama died, since Mito was no match probably.


----------



## Scar (May 28, 2012)

I'd ust like to say: Tobi is not Obito.

That's all for now, since I ofcourse am not certain of his identity


----------



## jacamo (May 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It either makes no sense for any candidate actually lol.
> I mean Madara; he already had his hands on the Kyuubi if he wanted it he could have take it anytime he want.
> Shisui? Was too young probably.
> Elder younger sons; They lived like 1000 years ago, they also could have layed their hands on the Bijuu's right after RS died, makes also no sense.
> Kagami ''lol'', could have layed his hands on the Kyuubi at the moment Hashirama/Tobirama died, since Mito was no match probably.



no offense, but i really doubt you understood the original point

out of all the candidates, Obito is the only person that would have been too young to make that type of comment


----------



## †obitobi (May 28, 2012)

jacamo said:


> oh by the way TobiUchiha111 i appreciate the response
> 
> but i dont feel your explanations explain the plotholes because, just like loool3, you are using very open ended assumptions to try and explain them
> 
> ...



Please list these said plotholes.

edit: nevermind, I found them. Will respond shortly...


----------



## Shaz (May 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Kagami ''lol'', could have *layed his hands on the Kyuubi* at the moment Hashirama/Tobirama died, since Mito was no match probably.



He did, if he was Tobi, as he later attacked Konoha. Remember he had no chance to take it during Mito's death, as Mito was the jinjuriki, and the Kyuubi was transferred to an early teenage Kushina, if it was Kagami, he would of also been about in his 20s-30s during this time.

I just see you see it pretty one sided; "It's either Obito or nothing".

There are always lack of facts, but then there is also ignorance. If your not going to respect other peoples views, why would they with you? That's my point. You shrug their opinions off as a joke, when they can do exactly the same.


----------



## Talis (May 28, 2012)

jacamo said:


> no offense, but i really doubt you understood the original point
> 
> out of all the candidates, Obito is the only person that would have been too young to make that type of comment


Like i said i admit it this being a plothole for Obito, the others aren't like i simply commented on them.



MissinqNin said:


> He did, if he was Tobi, as he later attacked Konoha. Remember he had no chance to take it during Mito's death, as Mito was the jinjuriki, and the Kyuubi was transferred to an early teenage Kushina, if it was Kagami, he would of also been about in his 20s-30s during this time.
> 
> I just see you see it pretty one sided; "It's either Obito or nothing".
> 
> There are always lack of facts, but then there is also ignorance. If your not going to respect other peoples views, why would they with you? That's my point. You shrug their opinions off as a joke, when they can do exactly the same.


Clearly makes no sense.
The perfect moment for Kagami laying his hand on Kyuui was at the moment Tobirama died since Hashirama was already death, and with Tobirama being death there would stand no serious ninja in front of him too stop him.
So instead that he prefers to attack when someone like Minato/2 hokages are around?


----------



## jacamo (May 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Like i said i admit it this being a plothole for Obito, the others aren't like i simply commented on them.



your explanations didnt disprove the plotholes  

oh well


----------



## Shaz (May 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Clearly makes no sense.
> The perfect moment for Kagami laying his hand on Kyuui was at the moment Tobirama died since Hashirama was already death, and with Tobirama being death there would stand no serious ninja in front of him too stop him.
> So instead that he prefers to attack when someone like Minato/2 hokages are around?



Did you not understand that Mito was Kyuubi's jinjuriki? She was known for excellent sealing jutsu, also could seal the entire Kyuubi inside of her, as well as gained partial control of the Kyuubi. 

I'm sure both Hashirama and Tobirama didn't die and leave Mito to die. She was regarded as a very powerful Kunoichi.

Also don't forget Tobirama appointed Hiruzen as Hokage right before his death and we know he wasn't just any other ninja, he was skilled during his earlier days, so even if Kagami wanted to, he couldn't just walk in, rob the Kyuubi and walk out. He also would of been pretty young and inexperienced during the time Mito's seal weakened, as well as Mito would of had better control over the seal.


----------



## NW (May 28, 2012)

Wow, I'm really starting to doubt that Tobi is Obito. I never realized there were that many plotholes. I guess the only other logical answer would be Kagami.


----------



## Shaz (May 28, 2012)

Also let me follow up on my post, Mito married Hashirama before the founding of the Konoha. She also gave birth before his death, which is when the seal was said to weaken a bit, however that was in the presence of the first and second Hokage. Even the real Madara himself wouldn't dare trying to extract the Kyuubi, even the person who was Tobi (Possibly Kagami) may of not of been appointed as "Tobi" during this time. So once it was transferred to Kushina, the third Hokage was present, and the only time the seal would weaken and the leaf could be caught off guard would be during child birth.
Remembering Kagami would of known the third pretty well, and would know that Hiruzen knew many jutsu, which made him dangerous, having to take the Kyuubi during his presence would of been a risk, which he rather take by kidnapping Naruto, whilst everyone was offguard.

How would he have gotten past the guards? Perhaps because they knew him. Kagami was one who was around during the forming of Root, thus making it easier to gain access to the place where Kushina was in labour. Someone like Obito wouldn't just be allowed in, especially considering he would of been confirmed dead by the Leaf Shinobi during this time.

I'm not saying it can't be Obito, just giving my opinion, which is constantly shunned back down my throat and your approach implies I must not believe in my opinion, but yours, because _you_ think it's superior, and I disagree.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 28, 2012)

jacamo said:


> no proof, but its the only theory with ZERO plotholes



Elder Son has zero plotholes


----------



## Talis (May 28, 2012)

No plot= no plotholes...


----------



## jimbob631 (May 28, 2012)

jacamo said:


> in principle, i agree with both of you
> 
> but this isnt just 1 or 2 minor plotholes that can be brushed off such as the Izuna theory, the Obito theory has as many as 10 plotholes... and i maintain that the major plotholes such as the timeline disparity (multiple quotes) and Kyuubi recognising Tobi can never be satisfied, even if Kishi is hell bent on Tobito
> 
> ...



What timeline disparity?  And the Kyuubi recognizing Tobi is far from a plot hole, why wouldn't he know one of Minato's students?  He can see from inside Kushina.


----------



## jacamo (May 28, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Elder Son has zero plotholes



yeh... you could say that 

but seriously? 



jimbob631 said:


> What timeline disparity?  And the Kyuubi recognizing Tobi is far from a plot hole, why wouldn't he know one of Minato's students?  He can see from inside Kushina.



Tobi knew Nagato and gave him his Rinnegan, but Obito wasnt even born yet... theres your timeline disparity right there

not to mention the following quotes: "Do you have ANY idea how long I?ve waited for this moment?"... "I can see the first Hokage in you."... "This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle."


----------



## †obitobi (May 28, 2012)

Let's try to stay open minded and fair, here.



jacamo said:


> chapter references are all from narutobase
> 
> *Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504)*
> There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.


Tobi showed no more than three new jutsu against Minato from the time that Obito supposedly died (4 if you count the extraction of Kurama). There's a plethora of reasons as to why he could've become decent at these three jutsu:

1. He had help
2. Experimentation and pharmaceuticals, like with Sasuke
3. He wasn't _that_ bad to begin with, only Kakashi was exceptional (he did know katon jutsu)
4. The sharingan helped him to learn faster
5. Zetsu parts



jacamo said:


> *Plothole Number 2: Personality U-turn (chapter 241 page 19)*
> "Of course those in the ninja world who break the rules and regulations are called trash... but those who don’t care about their companions are even worse than trash." Will of Fire talk from Obito. It makes no sense for him to suddenly manifest this unwavering vendetta against Konoha unless Tobi is just using Obito’s body as a vessel, in which case, Tobi isn’t really Obito anyway because his soul and spirit have nothing to do with it.



Izanami.



jacamo said:


> *Plothole Number 3:  Kushina Quote (chapter 501 page 7)*
> "Do you have ANY idea how long I’ve waited for this moment?" It’s a complete contradiction for Obito to say something like that when, hypothetically, he wouldn’t have been alive long enough to make that type of comment because Obito would have been 15 years old if he fought Minato. Tobi has probably had to wait DECADES for the opportunity to extract the Kyuubi from its host.



"My power, Uchiha Madara's power!"

"I am merely a shell of my former self"

Your point seems to base itself on the premise that Tobi was being genuine. But there's nothing indicating that he was more genuine there than he was when he said these two quotes, thus its empirical value is no more than if he were to say the reason that he's Madara is because he said so.





jacamo said:


> *Plothole Number 4: Kyuubi recognised Tobi (chapter 501 page 8)*
> The Kyuubi actually recognises Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn’t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognise anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara’s generation.



There's nothing to be convinced of. Kurama, at least in my opinion, only recognized the ability to control him. When Sasuke entered into Naruto's subconscious, he thought that Sasuke was someone else until he saw him.


*Tobi*



*Sasuke*







1. Sasuke either has Tobi's chakra, which he apparently doesn't,

2. the Kyuubi can recognize chakra, only he didn't that time, which doesn't make sense,

3. or Kurama only recognized the jutsu.

Go to mangahelpers to verify the context. Look for consistency.



jacamo said:


> *Plothole Number 5: Tobi is too tall (chapter 503 page 9)*
> Tobi was shown to be adult sized when he fought Minato, chapter 503 page 5. But on page 9, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be much shorter as they are going through adolescence. Obito would have been around that size and is therefore too short to be Tobi.



Tobi apparently has Zetsu parts. If Obito's body was of no use, which is plausible, and then given Zetsu parts for the sake of efficiency, then wouldn't adult parts suffice better than a child's?



jacamo said:


> *Plothole Number 6: Minato would’ve figured it out (chapter 500-504)*
> If Tobi was really Obito, then Minato would have figured it out when they were fighting each other. Obito was Minato’s own student and would have recognised his chakra, but he didn’t.



1. Where does it state that Minato can recognize chakra?
2. Tobi can mask his chakra.
3. Zetsu parts can mimmic the chakra of anyone.
4. Minato didn't try to recognize Tobi's chakra.



jacamo said:


> *Plothole Number 7: This is HIS doing (chapter 560 page 2)*
> "This is HIS doing." That means Madara knows exactly who Tobi is, but there is no way Madara could have worked with Obito because Madara had died already. We know this because by the time Nagato gets Madara's Rinnegan from Tobi, Madara is *officially* dead - "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death." (chapter 560 page 15). This is important because Nagato is older than Minato, and Minato is older than Obito.



There's nothing that states that Madara died before Obito could've became Tobi.

Obito was apparently as old as Kakashi, which was around 13, when the third Shinobi world war ended. During this time, Yahiko died, and Nagato was probably close to 20 or so. So if Obito was only about 5 to 10 years younger than Nagato, whom Madara clearly indicated that he knew, then it's not a stretch to say that he could've known Obito.

More substance for this is the fact that Madara looked relatively young when revived with Edo tensei, despite being about in his 50's when Nagato was even born (mid 90's - mid 30's to early or mid 40's = 50's or 60's), indicating that he was using some sort of sustaining jutsu.

Candidates:

1. Pretta Path

2. Hashirama's regeneration jutsu



jacamo said:


> *Plothole Number 8: Hashirama Comparison (chapter 462 page 14)*
> Tobi says to Naruto "I can see the first Hokage in you." To make that type of comparison Tobi must have known what Hashirama was like as a person. Problem is, Hashirama was dead before Obito was born.



Again, acting is just as possible. Madara could've also showed him Hashirama just like Itachi showed Sasuke Madara.



jacamo said:


> *Plothole Number 9: During Our Battle (chapter 512 page 9)*
> "This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle." Kabuto already revealed the Madara coffin so there was no reason for Tobi to keep lying. So if Tobi actually had a fight with Hashirama there is no way he could be Obito.



Well there's actually evidence to counter that, so there's no reason to assume that he really fought with Hashirama:

1. "I am no one"
2. continuously wearing a mask, despite the fact that there was no reason to keep lying after he attacked Konan.
3. Madara revived by ET.

As far as there being no reason to continue to lie, there's nothing that confirms that either.




jacamo said:


> *Plothole Number 10: Too Much Knowledge*
> It is impossible for Obito to know so much about the bloody history between the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan before Konoha was even established as a shinobi village. Tobi has to be someone from that generation. It is also impossible for Obito to know so much about Rikudou Sennin, his sons, the Bijuu and the Juubi.



How do you suppose that Itachi knew about Madara since he wasn't from that generation?

Again, Madara could've taught him about it the same way that Itachi taught Sasuke about Madara.




jacamo said:


> you cant... because a plothole is something that cant be explained
> 
> there is no logical explanation for any of these plotholes
> 
> ...


I'm not saying that Tobi has to be Obito, as he could very well be anyone. But for anyone saying that one shouldn't believe it if they wanted, that's insubstantial in my opinion.


----------



## jacamo (May 28, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> Let's try to stay open minded and fair, here.
> 
> 
> Tobi showed no more than three new jutsu against Minato from the time that Obito supposedly died (4 if you count the extraction of Kurama). There's a plethora of reasons as to why he could've become decent at these three jutsu:
> ...



so Obito accomplished all of that in a 2 year period? thats just not feasible imo... you are making too many assumptions for a kid who was only capable of Katon and base Sharingan less than 2 years prior to fighting Minato



> Izanami.



Obito has the Will of Fire, so that makes no sense



> "My power, Uchiha Madara's power!"
> 
> "I am merely a shell of my former self"
> 
> Your point seems to base itself on the premise that Tobi was being genuine. But there's nothing indicating that he was more genuine there than he was when he said these two quotes, thus its empirical value is no more than if he were to say the reason that he's Madara is because he said so.



Tobi was alone with Kushina, he had no reason to lie



> There's nothing to be convinced of. Kurama only recognized the ability to control the him. When Sasuke entered into Naruto's subconscious, he thought that Sasuke was someone else until he saw him.
> 
> *Tobi*
> 
> ...



how can you say the Kyuubi only recognised the ability to control him when he says "You"... the Kyuubi clearly identified who Tobi was at that point

the Kyuubi clearly has NO problem recognising Madara's chakra anyway, as you can clearly see below in chapter 561






> Tobi apparently has Zetsu parts. If Obito's body was of no use, which is plausible, and then given Zetsu parts for the sake of efficiency, then wouldn't adult parts suffice better than a child's?



ok, but this is the only point i will give up



> 1. Where does it state that Minato can recognize chakra?
> 2. Tobi can mask his chakra.
> 3. Zetsu parts can mimmic the chakra of anyone.
> 4. Minato didn't try to recognize Tobi's chakra.



all top tier ninja can recognise chakra to some extent... especially if its someone as intimate as your student



> There's nothing that states that Madara died before Obito could've became Tobi.
> 
> Obito was apparently as old as Kakashi, which was around 13, when the third Shinobi world war ended. During this time, Yahiko died, and Nagato was probably close to 20 or so. So if Obito was only about 5 to 10 yearls younger than Nagato, whom Madara clearly indicated that he knew, then it's not a stretch to say that he could've known Obito.
> 
> ...



no, its a massive stretch to say Madara knew Obito... i couldnt have laid it out any better than i did

its Minato that was 5-10 years younger than Nagato, not Obito... by the time Tobi implants Nagato with Madara's Rinnegan, Madara has to be dead 



> Again, acting is just as possible. Madara could've also showed him Hashirama just like Itachi showed Sasuke Madara.



no, to make that comparison Tobi has to be from that era



> Well there's actually evidence to counter that, so there's no reason to assume that he really fought with Hashirama:
> 
> 1. "I am no one"
> 2. continuously wearing a mask, despite the fact that there was no reason to keep lying after he attacked Konan.
> ...



what? at that point Kabuto already knows Tobi isnt Madara... there was absolutely no reason to lie or act... the jig was up!!! 

if Tobi told Kabuto he fought Hashirama, then he did



> How do you suppose that Itachi knew about Madara since he wasn't from that generation?
> 
> Again, Madara could've taught him about it the same way that Itachi taught Sasuke about Madara.



Madara couldnt have taught Obito, they werent even alive at the same time... as an infant? before Obito even left Konoha for that mission? no way



> I'm not saying that Tobi has to be Obito, as he could very well be anyone. But for anyone saying that one shouldn't believe it if they wanted, that's insubstantial in my opinion.



the plotholes make that impossible


all this multitasking has made me weary... im done


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 29, 2012)

jacamo said:


> so Obito accomplished all of that in a 2 year period? thats just not feasible imo... you are making too many assumptions for a kid who was only capable of Katon and base Sharingan less than 2 years prior to fighting Minato



Don't underestimate Obito's potential. The kid was MS capable after all.

He also claimed that he would surpass Kakashi once he awakened his Sharingan. It would be trivially easy for Kishimoto to follow up  on that.

Basically, given the history of young children becoming retardedly powerful in a short amount of time, I don't find it difficult at all to believe the same could've applied to Tobi.



> Obito has the Will of Fire, so that makes no sense



WoF doesn't negate Izanami.



> Tobi was alone with Kushina, he had no reason to lie



He had no reason to lie when he was alone with Kabuto or Konan, either, but he did anyway.

Plus, they're never alone when the audience is watching.



> how can you say the Kyuubi only recognised the ability to control him when he says "You"... the Kyuubi clearly identified who Tobi was at that point
> 
> the Kyuubi clearly has NO problem recognising Madara's chakra anyway, as you can clearly see below in chapter 561



It could have been a case of mistaken identity. The Kyuubi thought he was Madara because his chakra was similar, as was the case with Sasuke.



> all top tier ninja can recognise chakra to some extent... especially if its someone as intimate as your student



Obito would have changed significantly, and as we see with Sasuke when one is consumed by hatred their chakra changes.



> no, its a massive stretch to say Madara knew Obito... i couldnt have laid it out any better than i did
> 
> its Minato that was 5-10 years younger than Nagato, not Obito... by the time Tobi implants Nagato with Madara's Rinnegan, Madara has to be dead



We don't know Tobi's exact relation to Madara. He seems to know who he is, but their interaction seems to have been minimal.

All we know for sure is Madara left Tobi a plan that he has since ceased to follow.



> no, to make that comparison Tobi has to be from that era
> 
> what? at that point Kabuto already knows Tobi isnt Madara... there was absolutely no reason to lie or act... the jig was up!!!
> 
> if Tobi told Kabuto he fought Hashirama, then he did



Tobi was lying. There is no other explanation.


----------



## Scizor (May 29, 2012)

gershwin said:


> few times he was thinking to himself  "shisui`s eye". Why would Shisui refer to himself in the third person?



This^ is a very good point.


----------



## jimbob631 (May 29, 2012)

jacamo said:


> yeh... you could say that
> 
> but seriously?
> 
> ...



Tobi has claimed a great deal of things that were very likely not done by him but by Madara.  This is incredibly clear.


----------



## jacamo (May 29, 2012)

^its called context




First Tsurugi said:


> Don't underestimate Obito's potential. The kid was MS capable after all.
> 
> He also claimed that he would surpass Kakashi once he awakened his Sharingan. It would be trivially easy for Kishimoto to follow up  on that.
> 
> Basically, given the history of young children becoming retardedly powerful in a short amount of time, I don't find it difficult at all to believe the same could've applied to Tobi.



i find it incredibly difficult to believe

still doesnt make sense, Nagato already had the Rinnegan for many years at that point as he was even older than Minato... and im supposed to believe Obito was the guy who masterminded Akatsuki and gave Nagato the Rinnegan? 



> WoF doesn't negate Izanami.



how do you know? it very well could

anyway, we dont know enough about Izanami to use it as an explanation... so what i should have said was, Izanami doesnt explain the personality u-turn 



> He had no reason to lie when he was alone with Kabuto or Konan, either, but he did anyway.
> 
> Plus, they're never alone when the audience is watching.



still doesnt explain why Tobi would say "do you have ANY idea how long ive waited for this moment?" the point is Obito wouldnt have been alive for long enough to make that type of comment as he would have been too young



> It could have been a case of mistaken identity. The Kyuubi thought he was Madara because his chakra was similar, as was the case with Sasuke.



the Kyuubi would never mistaken Madara's chakra signature, the panel i provided shows this... yet the Kyuubi still identified Tobi



> Obito would have changed significantly, and as we see with Sasuke when one is consumed by hatred their chakra changes.



if it was really Obito, i still think Minato would have figured it out



> We don't know Tobi's exact relation to Madara. He seems to know who he is, but their interaction seems to have been minimal.



no, Madara knows EXACTLY who Tobi is... and you cant just assume their interaction was minimal either



> Tobi was lying. There is no other explanation.



the explanation is that Tobi is from a much older generation

and he wasnt lying because Kabuto already knew Tobi wasnt Madara


----------



## Escargon (May 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It either makes no sense for any candidate actually lol.
> I mean Madara; he already had his hands on the Kyuubi if he wanted it he could have take it anytime he want.
> Shisui? Was too young probably.
> Elder younger sons; They lived like 1000 years ago, they also could have layed their hands on the Bijuu's right after RS died, makes also no sense.
> Kagami ''lol'', could have layed his hands on the Kyuubi at the moment Hashirama/Tobirama died, since Mito was no match probably.



The only thing that makes sense is a time traveling person, okay, Tobi doesnt make sense. Im trying to gather all the information about him but it just doesnt make any sense. Theres no way to break Tobis identity.

I am pretty sure half of his body is Madara obviously cause Kishi called him Madara and showed his old face to trick us readers. (The scars of his face is wrinkles, same as Mifunes.) Im just saying hes half Madara cause for me, if hes not, i would be confused. Im saying hes half Madara to explain things for me.

For example, Kishi called him Madara and had no problem showing Tobis left side of his face which looks like Madara aged.

But other than that, i have no clue who the hell Tobi could be. When i start making theory about that, no this comes, no that comes, and i give up.

Even if he is a Zetsu clone he must have had the power to time travel until he lost all his power due to that cause theres no character in Konoha thats so old, Tobi fought Hashirama in one point.

Propably the secret is in the lab of Oro. 



TobiUchiha111 said:


> Wow, I'm really starting to doubt that Tobi is Obito. I never realized there were that many plotholes. I guess the only other logical answer would be Kagami.



Why would he be a character introduced years after Tobi?



loool3 said:


> No plot= no plotholes...



Haha!


----------



## Easley (May 29, 2012)

I hope I'm wrong, but I think Kishi is gonna pull something out of his ass. The unmasking has been delayed too long for any of the popular candidates to be effective. The Uchiha especially, most people would just shrug. He'd written an almost perfect reveal in chapter 364 and I have no idea why he fucked that up. Had second thoughts, maybe? One of the greatest moments in the manga ruined. The real Madara is awesome and a hard act for Tobi to follow. I doubt he'll live up to that.

Masked characters are very convenient, the writer can change his mind any time, but he's milked this for years. He better show Tobi's face during the current fight, if not it's just a blatant delay tactic. 

Time travel is the only thing that would shock me... and his pocket dimension can't just be a place to hold captives.


----------



## kisuke55 (May 29, 2012)

tobi is the s6p, dosent that place he sends people when he sucks them in look kinda like where naruto goes when he sees 9tails?and the sage was once 10 tails jinchuriki

i think the sage is immortal and tobi is an imcomplete sage of six paths


----------



## Shaz (May 29, 2012)

kisuke55 said:


> i think the sage is immortal and tobi is an imcomplete sage of six paths






Then why would he seperate the Juubi into nine different beasts and now want them to integrate them again? 

Also it is implied that Madara was leading, if Tobi was So6P why would he listen to the likes of Madara before his death? Even Madara would be fodder to him. 

Tobi is not following the "plan" which is implied to be set by Madara Uchiha, by Kabuto.


----------



## Talis (May 29, 2012)

Tobi is Sakura.
She has an unrevealed S/T technique which allows her to travel in time.
Her name is named to a flower, Tobi has Hashiramas Dna which means that he can use Moketon with flowers just as Edo Madara did.
See the connections?
She was Madara's daughter, after Madara died she wanted revenge on the leaf.
It was Sakura which teached Shisui mind controle, she is a genjutsu expert like Kakashi said.
She cut her hair and dyed it, after it she keeps traveling in the space to keep it changed.
See no plotholes. 


TobiUchiha111 said:


> Wow, I'm really starting to doubt that Tobi is Obito. I never realized there were that many plotholes. I guess the only other logical answer would be Sakura.


Yes.


----------



## kisuke55 (May 29, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Then why would he seperate the Juubi into nine different beasts and now want them to integrate them again?
> 
> Also it is implied that Madara was leading, if Tobi was So6P why would he listen to the likes of Madara before his death? Even Madara would be fodder to him.
> 
> Tobi is not following the "plan" which is implied to be set by Madara Uchiha, by Kabuto.



he split up 10 tails 1.because he thought he was about to die,2. to help mantain peace,with the jinchuriki as a kind of nuclear deterant.

but he didnt die,being the 10 tails jinchuriki made him immortal( my opinion) and hes trying to reunite 10 tails and become its jinchuriki again because he sees that what he did didnt create peace,so hes gonna use the eternal tsyukiomi( if thats his real plan)

if tobi is the incomplete sage like i think he is why would he follow madara? one of his desendents, hes just using madara like he uses akatsuki and everyone else


----------



## Talis (May 29, 2012)

kisuke55 said:


> he split up 10 tails 1.because he thought he was about to die,2. to help mantain peace,with the jinchuriki as a kind of nuclear deterant.
> 
> but he didnt die,being the 10 tails jinchuriki made him immortal( my opinion) and hes trying to reunite 10 tails and become its jinchuriki again because he sees that what he did didnt create peace,so hes gonna use the eternal tsyukiomi( if thats his real plan)
> 
> if tobi is the incomplete sage like i think he is why would he follow madara? one of his desendents, hes just using madara like he uses akatsuki and everyone else


RS used a sealing technique of his own soul into Sakura's body which is Tobi in S/T mode.
Look how strong Sakura is she can break the whole ground.
Thats the power of RS, look how my Tobi is Sakura theory is devolping no plothole in it pure fanfic, but still the truth and no plothole.  



jacamo said:


> none of your explanations are good enough
> 
> any reasonable person would realise this


Yeah sure, just keep silence about your own Kagami theory, these ''explanation simply answered them all which makes sense even'', meanwhile they all go against Kagami theory as well yet your not coming up with some explanation?
Thats weak disproving other theories while all these thing goes against your own theory which hasn't even a single fact too disprove it.


----------



## kisuke55 (May 29, 2012)

this might sound stupid but who is kagami and what volume is he in?


----------



## Talis (May 29, 2012)

kisuke55 said:


> this might sound stupid but who is kagami and what volume is he in?


Where have I heard that before?
The last left panel, the only panel he is in so far in the whole manga.

Anyways how does people come up with that the Kyuubi actually recognized Tobi?
Kyuubi just said ''Hey, you!?''.
When a random kid trolls around on street and a mature comes, what does he say?
Yes exactly, ''hey you'', does that mean the mature knows that kid?
No.
Even someone with a suxy english influence like me knows that.


----------



## T-Bag (May 29, 2012)

kisuke55 said:


> this might sound stupid but who is kagami and what volume is he in?



and its because people ask questions such as these, that makes the theory tobi = kagami, impossible

kagami... get the fuck outta here with that bullshit


----------



## kisuke55 (May 29, 2012)

i dont think tobi is just tobi,if he is then mashi has wasted our time with his mask. i also dont think hes just some random character like obito or kagami.


----------



## jacamo (May 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Yeah sure, just keep silence about your own Kagami theory, these ''explanation simply answered them all which makes sense even'', meanwhile they all go against Kagami theory as well yet your not coming up with some explanation?
> Thats weak disproving other theories while all these thing goes against your own theory which hasn't even a single fact too disprove it.



stop kidding yourself

none of those points go against the Kagami theory 



loool3 said:


> Where have I heard that before?
> The last left panel, the only panel he is in so far in the whole manga.
> 
> Anyways how does people come up with that the Kyuubi actually recognized Tobi?
> ...



the Kyuubi recognised Tobi... deny it all you want but this plothole isnt going anywhere 

and thats not even the only plothole either 



T-Bag said:


> and its because people ask questions such as these, that makes the theory tobi = kagami, impossible
> 
> kagami... get the fuck outta here with that bullshit



Nagato was a new character and he turned out to be Pain... so you need to get the fuck outta here with that bullshit

least i remind you that Kagami has ZERO plotholes


----------



## Mateush (May 29, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> and its because people ask questions such as these, that makes the theory tobi = kagami, impossible
> 
> kagami... get the fuck outta here with that bullshit



You just told the truth. The only hint about Tobi = Kagami pretty much is like as Tobi = Elder son, because there are "zero" plot holes.


----------



## T-Bag (May 29, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Nagato was a new character and he turned out to be Pain... so you need to get the fuck outta here with that bullshit
> 
> least i remind you that Kagami has ZERO plotholes



what possible plotholes can he have? all you know is his name. he has no development whats so ever. matter of fact he cant be considered a character


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 29, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i find it incredibly difficult to believe



Well opinions.



> still doesnt make sense, Nagato already had the Rinnegan for many years at that point as he was even older than Minato... and im supposed to believe Obito was the guy who masterminded Akatsuki and gave Nagato the Rinnegan?



No, that would be Madara, like Tobi himself said.



> how do you know? it very well could
> 
> anyway, we dont know enough about Izanami to use it as an explanation... so what i should have said was, Izanami doesnt explain the personality u-turn



I agree, actually.



> still doesnt explain why Tobi would say "do you have ANY idea how long ive waited for this moment?" the point is Obito wouldnt have been alive for long enough to make that type of comment as he would have been too young



I'll grant you this point.



> the Kyuubi would never mistaken Madara's chakra signature, the panel i provided shows this... yet the Kyuubi still identified Tobi



Did you forget the part where he told Sasuke his chakra was similar to Madara's?

And now Kyuubi simply refers to Tobi as the "Masked Man" like everyone else.

Either Kyuubi was mistaken, or he was not referring to Madara when he "recognized" Tobi. Either one works.



> if it was really Obito, i still think Minato would have figured it out



I doubt it. When Jiraiya fought Pain it took him quite some time before he realized he was fighting Nagato.



> no, Madara knows EXACTLY who Tobi is... and you cant just assume their interaction was minimal either



I know he knows who he is, but until we get a better idea of what their relationship was, we can't assume things either way.



> the explanation is that Tobi is from a much older generation



No it isn't.

Tobi has lied about things when logically he has no reason to. Like when he insisted he was Madara to a dying Konan, and claimed Madara's feats as his own.

It is the same here. Madara was the one who stole Shodai's DNA during their fight, and used it to create Zetsu, among other things.



> and he wasnt lying because Kabuto already knew Tobi wasnt Madara



Irrelevant since the audience didn't know at that point. Admitting there that he wasn't Madara would have spoiled the twist.


----------



## Talis (May 29, 2012)

jacamo said:


> stop kidding yourself
> 
> none of those points go against the Kagami theory
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter anyways whether he did or not, in both cases Obito has a reason to be recognized by the Kyuubi while Kagami doesn't.

Oh about that personality change i forgot to say the random ass pop ''Uchiha's hatred cycle'' Kishi made that especially for Obito, same thing goes for the ''The power of the Uchiha and Senju in a man, he can controle the Kyuubi'' comment from Tobi on Danzou also an obviously made for Tobito, Kishi basically told us that a fodder like Obito with Hashirama Senju Dna can controle the Kyuubi.


----------



## jacamo (May 29, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> what possible plotholes can he have? all you know is his name. he has no development whats so ever. matter of fact he cant be considered a character



Nagato had no development either, not until right before he was revealed to be Pain so you dont really have a point here

Kagami is not impossible


----------



## Mateush (May 29, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Kagami is not impossible



True, but we know that Kagami, Obito, Elder Son probably is not gonna to happen.


----------



## Talis (May 29, 2012)

Mateush said:


> True, but we know that Kagami, Obito, Elder Son probably is not gonna to happen.


Dream on Madara supporter, or should i say wake up and use your head.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 29, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Nagato had no development either, not until right before he was revealed to be Pain so you dont really have a point here
> 
> Kagami is not impossible



Nagato was different.

With Tobi it's obviously going to be someone the audience would recognize.

And more than likely someone in the story will recognize them too.


----------



## Mateush (May 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Dream on Madara supporter, or should i say wake up and use your head.



Or I would say you could pick up that ramen guy and use a lot of theories about him. It pretty much is like as Obito theories, because there are absolute zero plotholes, while I still have a few backups for Madara or Izuna.


----------



## T-Bag (May 29, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Nagato had no development either, not until right before he was revealed to be Pain so you dont really have a point here
> 
> Kagami is not impossible



nagato was just some kid. tobi on the other hand is very important to the plot. and someone like kagami at this point in the story is not gona cut it. not by a long shot

kagami would only be possible if we replaced kishi for you


----------



## kisuke55 (May 29, 2012)

just cause 9tailes recognised tobis charkra as madara dont mean anything,hes going around calling himself madara


----------



## Talis (May 29, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Or I would say you could pick up that ramen guy and use a lot of theories about him. It pretty much is like as Obito theories, because there are absolute zero plotholes, while I still have a few backups for Madara or Izuna.


You realise Madara is basically like uh...FUCKING DEATH?


----------



## Mateush (May 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> You realise Madara is basically like uh...FUCKING DEATH?



Uh, you don't think that I didn't know that he's fucking dead? Seriously, of course I'm refering to what Tobi said.


----------



## Talis (May 29, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Uh, you don't think that I didn't know that he's fucking dead? Seriously, of course I'm refering to what Tobi said.


The only way he can be Madara is him having controle of someone else.
Even then calling him Madara would be some strange.


----------



## Mateush (May 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> The only way he can be Madara is him having controle of someone else.
> Even then calling him Madara would be some strange.



Think carefully about Zetsu, Hashirama in that blob thing, etc. Tobi has all that knowledge, because I think only Madara or maybe Izuna did it. 

I think this is very important, so all events after that is just speculations, pretty much like as me. The only I don't understand is why Edo Madara had his warrior armor, maybe it means he really died during the second war?


----------



## Talis (May 29, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Think carefully about Zetsu, Hashirama in that blob thing, etc. Tobi has all that knowledge, because I think only Madara or maybe Izuna did it.
> 
> I think this is very important, so all events after that is just speculations, pretty much like as me. The only I don't understand is why Edo Madara had his warrior armor, maybe it means he really died during the second war?


He pretty much that of the Senju Dna probably.
Anyways the long haired masked man was Madara himself also, pretty much chance that Madara goes to Itachi tomorrow, they will recognize each other and reveal whatever happend on the Uchiha masacre.


----------



## jacamo (May 29, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> No, that would be Madara, like Tobi himself said.



well, not in my opinion... i have good reason to believe Madara was dead by the time Nagato gets Madara's Rinnegan



> Did you forget the part where he told Sasuke his chakra was similar to Madara's?
> 
> And now Kyuubi simply refers to Tobi as the "Masked Man" like everyone else.
> 
> Either Kyuubi was mistaken, or he was not referring to Madara when he "recognized" Tobi. Either one works.



eh, maybe... i doubt it though



> I doubt it. When Jiraiya fought Pain it took him quite some time before he realized he was fighting Nagato.



opinions



> I know he knows who he is, but until we get a better idea of what their relationship was, we can't assume things either way.



im not assuming anything 



> No it isn't.
> 
> Tobi has lied about things when logically he has no reason to. Like when he insisted he was Madara to a dying Konan, and claimed Madara's feats as his own.
> 
> It is the same here. Madara was the one who stole Shodai's DNA during their fight, and used it to create Zetsu, among other things.



and it also could have been Tobi



> Irrelevant since the audience didn't know at that point. Admitting there that he wasn't Madara would have spoiled the twist.



fair point


----------



## Mateush (May 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> He pretty much that of the Senju Dna probably.
> Anyways the long haired masked man was Madara himself also, pretty much chance that Madara goes to Itachi tomorrow, they will recognize each other and reveal whatever happend on the Uchiha masacre.



Then explain why Edo Madara wears his warrior armors?


----------



## Talis (May 29, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Then explain why Edo Madara wears his warrior armors?


Idk, but Madara clearly had the Rinnegan and gave them to Nagato as well, or else Tobi took them out of Madara eyes socks and gave them.
Anyways Tobi and Itachi seems to keep avoid each other.
The secrets of that night must be revealed.
In the current flow only Madara can basically go to Itachi to reveal them, he even made 25 clones, so kages have to still deal with Madara while the real one goes to Itachi.
It's a win win situation either way.


----------



## Mateush (May 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Idk, but Madara clearly had the Rinnegan and gave them to Nagato as well, or else Tobi took them out of Madara eyes socks and gave them.



I don't know either, so we can say that he possibly died during the second war while Nagato still was alive. Honestly I think it's very plausible.


----------



## Talis (May 29, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I don't know either, so we can say that he possibly died during the second war while Nagato still was alive. Honestly I think it's very plausible.


Few things still can't be explained.
If we assume long haired guy was Madara he had 1 Sharingan the other one was covered.
So he pretty much used Izanagi in the battle.
But then which eyes did he gave Nagato his previous blind MS eyes?


----------



## jacamo (May 29, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> nagato was just some kid. tobi on the other hand is very important to the plot. and someone like kagami at this point in the story is not gona cut it. not by a long shot
> 
> kagami would only be possible if we replaced kishi for you



Pain was the main villain at the time and also very important to the plot... yet Pain still turned out to be a character with no backstory

if Tobi is Kagami, that pattern would repeat itself 

and please dont talk as if you know whats going to happen... Kagami is definitely possible at this point and you best accept that


----------



## Mateush (May 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Few things still can't be explained.
> If we assume long haired guy was Madara he had 1 Sharingan the other one was covered.
> So he pretty much used Izanagi in the battle.
> But then which eyes did he gave Nagato his previous blind MS eyes?



Well, I begin to think that long haired guy cannot be another but Tobi.

It still's possible that he's Madara, but I really doubt it because his statement "that brat Nagato" or his Edo Madara with warrior armor.

But, honestly I think that Madara already had Rinnegan because of Senju + Uchiha which he already stole from Hashirama. He somehow transmitted his Rinnegan to brat Nagato, while Tobi did the rest.


----------



## Talis (May 29, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Pain was the main villain at the time and also very important to the plot... yet Pain still turned out to be a character with no backstory
> 
> if Tobi is Kagami, that pattern would repeat itself
> 
> and please dont talk as if you know whats going to happen... Kagami is definitely possible at this point and you best accept that


Another problem who's gonna reveal him.
Even if the mask goes down he wouold bark another 20 bored chapters being a no one.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (May 29, 2012)

There's reason to believe that Madara himself didn't give his eyes to Nagato. 

The reason being that edo tensei brings back the user with the abilities they died with. Kabuto himself said this.

 If Madara had given his Rinnegan eyes to Nagato while he was still alive, he wouldn't have them now. 

Itachi still had his eyes after being brought back too. This is because he died before they were taken out and Sasuke implanted them. Hell, even Nagato, who also died with the eyes he had implemented, still had them when he was revived, even though Tobi took them. Naturally, since Madara has his own eyes, we can infer the same thing.

The only possible person that could have given those eyes to Nagato is Tobi.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 29, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> There's reason to believe that Madara himself didn't give his eyes to Nagato.
> 
> The reason being that edo tensei brings back the user with the abilities they died with. Kabuto himself said this.
> 
> ...



Kabuto tweaked Madara when he was brought back, so that doesn't really fly here.


----------



## T-Bag (May 29, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> There's reason to believe that Madara himself didn't give his eyes to Nagato.
> 
> The reason being that edo tensei brings back the user with the abilities they died with. Kabuto himself said this.
> 
> ...



according to tobi, there have been 3 people with the rinnegan in history.

-sage
-madara
-nagato

if tobi had his own pair, there'd be 4. but at this point it's pretty obvious the rinnegan that nagato/tobi are using are madara's


----------



## Talis (May 29, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> There's reason to believe that Madara himself didn't give his eyes to Nagato.
> 
> The reason being that edo tensei brings back the user with the abilities they died with. Kabuto himself said this.
> 
> ...


But that means that Nagato's Rinnegan was his natural eyes... Perhaps he got the Uchiha Dna injected.


----------



## NW (May 29, 2012)

kisuke55 said:


> this might sound stupid but who is kagami and what volume is he in?


Not sure what volume but he appeared in chapter 481. He's some random fodder uchiha on Danzo's team who has no relation to the story.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (May 29, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Kabuto tweaked Madara when he was brought back, so that doesn't really fly here.


Look at the track record of those who have been revived that died with their doujustu. I think the manga speaks for itself. Besides, from what you're telling me, Kabuto could give all of his edo summons Sharingan or Rinnegan doujutsu, and yet he didn't. Why? Because he cant. That's not how the jutsu works. If they didn't die with the eyes in their sockets, the jutsu won't give them those abilities.

Also, look here. 
Link removed
Madara has his Rinnegan, and he tells Kabuto that he awakened his eyes before he died, and yet he's still doesn't know what Kabuto did to his body. If Madara died without his original eyes, I doubt he'd instantly know that he has all of his techniques. He'd have at least some sort of reaction to it, but he doesn't. He uses his eyes right away, as if he never lost them. There's something else that Kabuto did to him that none of us know yet. All he says is that Madara is restored to past his prime. It's vague, but we at least know that those eyes aren't what's tweaked.


----------



## jacamo (May 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Another problem who's gonna reveal him.
> Even if the mask goes down he wouold bark another 20 bored chapters being a no one.



thats such a minor problem



loool3 said:


> But that means that Nagato's Rinnegan was his natural eyes... Perhaps he got the Uchiha Dna injected.



Tobi already said he gave them to him


----------



## Talis (May 29, 2012)

jacamo said:


> thats such a minor problem
> 
> 
> 
> Tobi already said he gave them to him


Yeah, Dna not the eye itself since Nagato came back with the ET in Rinnegan form, so it was naturally his eyes...


----------



## Menacing Eyes (May 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Yeah, Dna not the eye itself since Nagato came back with the ET in Rinnegan form, so it was naturally his eyes...


Kinkaku and Ginkaku came back with Kyuubi chakra and those mystical items. I'm pretty sure they weren't born with those abilities either. It revives the person with their abilities at their death. No where does it say that these abilities had to be abilities that they were born with.


----------



## Talis (May 29, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> Kinkaku and Ginkaku came back with Kyuubi chakra. I'm pretty sure they weren't born with that either. It revives the person with their abilities at their death. No where does it say that these abilities had to be abilities that they were born with.


Sasori was a puppet when he died.
Rinnegan, MS were ripped out of their socks as well after it.
Jinchirukes didn't had their Bijuus.


----------



## thepowerofscience (May 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Yeah, Dna not the eye itself since Nagato came back with the ET in Rinnegan form, so it was naturally his eyes...



Madara was reived with EMS which technically is his brother eyes so what is your point.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (May 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Sasori was a puppet when he died.
> Rinnegan, MS were ripped out of their socks as well after it.
> Jinchirukes didn't had their Bijuus.



Sasori's heart was still part of his flesh body. In a sense, he wasn't a complete puppet. It was nothing more than a container. Not an actual part of him, like something organic.

Again, the eyes were taken out AFTER they died. Edo tensei revives the user with the abilities that they had at the time that they died.

The Jinchuriki died after having their Bijuu ripped out, so they died without those powers.


----------



## Shaz (May 29, 2012)

I believe Nagato had Madara's previous MS Eyes, due to the combination of Uchiha DNA (Madara's MS) and Senju DNA (Uzumaki blood), Nagato naturally awoken Rinnegan. 

OR Nagato was given the eyes directly by Tobi after Madara had died, so even Edo Madara had his Rinnegan by regen. Look at Itachi, he died and Sasuke took his eyes to awaken EMS, and Itachi regenerated his MS as he had his eyes during the moments he was alive. 

I support my second theory regarding how Nagato got the Rinnegan, as a clue is seen in Sasuke and Edo Itachi as explained above.

That is why I believe Tobi says what he does regarding the Rinnegan, to Konan.


----------



## T-Bag (May 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Sasori was a puppet when he died.
> Rinnegan, MS were ripped out of their socks as well after it.
> Jinchirukes didn't had their Bijuus.



look.

edo tensei revives ninjas and their abilities that made them fearsome. it got nothing to do with how they were born or how they died. its just a plot device used to show what those ninja were capable of during their lifetime

kakuzu wasnt born with 5 hearts
gin/kin weren't born with kyuubi's chakra

just sayin


----------



## Shaz (May 29, 2012)

Also the reason some Edo jinjuriki didn't have their Bijuu is because they were sealed in Gedo Mazo, same goes with people. This is why you don't currently see Edo Hashirama, Tobirama and Minato - They were also sealed in some form.

EDIT: Also with most jinjuriki the Bijuu's were probably extracted before the death of the jinjuriki to seal it a new jinjuriki.


----------



## NW (May 29, 2012)

I'm really not seeing any other options for Kishi other than for tobi to be either Obito or Sakura.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 29, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> according to tobi, there have been 3 people with the rinnegan in history.
> 
> -sage
> -madara
> ...



That's not said, he could also mean:
1st: RS
2nd: Elder Son
3rd: Nagato

Elder Son uses Madara as well as "Tobi" so he is both persons himself, what would mean that there are 3 sages and he didn't lie about the "I gave Nagato my eyes" thing, because he is the one who gave them to Nagato when he was Madara and takes them back in his new body: Tobi


----------



## kisuke55 (May 29, 2012)

@t-bag,kakuzu didnt have 5 hearts when he was revived,he had to collect the other 4 again


----------



## shintebukuro (May 29, 2012)

Just going to throw this in here:

Clone who took over Obito's body/eye.


----------



## T-Bag (May 30, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> That's not said, he could also mean:
> 1st: RS
> 2nd: Elder Son
> 3rd: Nagato
> ...



you're making it too complicated. when it doesn't have to be 

here are the facts:

he said he is UCHIHA MADARA and that he had become a unique being. unique being = *rikudou* = uchiha + senju. then when he went to collect nagato's eyes he said nagato was the *3*rd rikudou. now mind you all these people with the title "rikudou" are rinnegan users.

Sage of the six paths - the first rinnegan user
uchiha madara (who tobi claims to be) - the second rinnegan user 
nagato - the 3rd rinnegan user

this is how it happened:

madara awakened the rinnegan, then died. tobi, madara's associate came in the picture, took madara's eyes and gave them to nagato when he was a toddler. now that nagato died tobi posing as "madara uchiha" claimed his eyes were his to begin with


----------



## Easley (May 30, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I'm really not seeing any other options for Kishi other than for tobi to be either Obito or Sakura.


Or Tenten.

Sarcastic maybe, but Tobi needs to be someone completely unexpected. I'm sure Kishi is aware of the theories. Even an asspull is better.


----------



## Mateush (May 30, 2012)

About Rinnegan, I think it would be something like this:

Madara awakened Rinnegan because of Senju cells which is related to Rikudo. 

Madara knew about Nagato and he even expected him to revive him. So it means he should had Rinnegan while Madara was alive, therefore I think he somehow gave it to Nagato OR he only used Nagato because of his Rinnegan. Tobi was acting extacly as Madara did, I think. So it only means that also Tobi is used by Madara, or he in one sense is Madara. The last option should be Izuna, because they are brother and think alike.


----------



## Brainsucker (May 30, 2012)

well, about Tobi. Why everyone forgot that he knows a things or two about scientific or medical knowledge, while the Edo Madara is not a kind of someone who bother about that stuff at all.

In summary, Tobi is a kind of medical or mad scientist type, while Madara is a fighter type character. 

Well I think it is impossible for Tobi as Orochimaru though. it is very unlikely. But, we can scan for characters that into medical or scientific knowledge. A kind of mad doctor type person that has relation to Uchiha.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 30, 2012)

Mateush said:


> About Rinnegan, I think it would be something like this:
> 
> Madara awakened Rinnegan because of Senju cells which is related to Rikudo.
> 
> Madara knew about Nagato and he even expected him to revive him. So it means he should had Rinnegan while Madara was alive, therefore I think he somehow gave it to Nagato OR he only used Nagato because of his Rinnegan. Tobi was acting extacly as Madara did, I think. So it only means that also Tobi is used by Madara, or he in one sense is Madara. The last option should be Izuna, because they are brother and think alike.



Except Nagato failed to revive Madara in the time frame he expected, and Madara himself commented that things don't seem to be going as planned.

So it's pretty obvious that Tobi is doing his own thing, and is not acting as Madara wanted him to act.


----------



## Escargon (May 30, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I'm really not seeing any other options for Kishi other than for tobi to be either Obito or Sakura.



Yeah, makes sense.



shintebukuro said:


> Just going to throw this in here:
> 
> Clone who took over Obito's body/eye.



Why do people think its Obito? You know when Tobi grows his hair out it looks exactly like Madaras and theres no other thing in this manga that has the exact same hair as Madara except Tobi.

And theres noone else in this manga that got the same Uchihalines around the eye as Tobi.



Mateush said:


> Then explain why Edo Madara wears his warrior armors?



Didnt he get ressurected during his golden age? Thats why he looks like hes in the 30s and thats why he wears his armor?

The fan is gone tho, Tobi wears it. Tobi got a fetisch for Madara, implanted face and all.

The funny thing is that Tobi gets disgusted when Kabuto ress up Madara. Its funny.


Even if hes made of white Zetsu, he cant be a clone. Its not possible, why would his plans be ruined if he showed his face to Konoha anyways.

But at the same time, why the fook do he needs information from Konoha and Narutos location? This doesnt make any sense. I think Kishi screwed up Tobi pretty bad now unless theres a scroll they can use to disable Tobi in Konoha or some shit like that..


----------



## Mateush (May 30, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Except Nagato failed to revive Madara in the *time frame* he expected



Where did you got this fact from?


----------



## Talis (May 30, 2012)

Oh well, you guys better prepare for ''the long haired masked man'' was the real Madara.
Madara being summoned to Kabuto can happen any moment from now on.


----------



## Shaz (May 30, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Where did you got this fact from?



The "Time frame" must of obviously been when the Bijuu were collected, however Tobi's gone off with his own plan by the looks of it. This is implied when Madara is first ressurected with Edo Tensei.


----------



## Easley (May 30, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Oh well, you guys better prepare for ''the long haired masked man'' was the real Madara.


Tobi removed his mask and Kisame recognized him. It's obvious they are the same person.

Or they look exactly alike, which reinforces the clone theory.


----------



## Talis (May 30, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi removed his mask and Kisame recognized him. It's obvious they are the same person.
> 
> Or they look exactly alike, which reinforces the clone theory.


Nope, he called him Madara because Madara controles him.
Moreover Kisame reffers him as indirectly Madara in a cocky way, ''so your him, Mizukage sama or should i say Madara''.
And Look Madara was controling the Mizukage.. I bet you Tobi was next to Yagura and Madara there but Kishi couldn't reveal that yet, or else people would have known Tobi not being Madara and the long haired one being Madara for over year ago already.


----------



## Shaz (May 30, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi removed his mask and Kisame recognized him. It's obvious they are the same person.
> 
> Or they look exactly alike, which reinforces the clone theory.



I do think the long haired Tobi is the real Madara, however this one is someone different. It'd be a disappointment to know it is a clone of Madara, and I don't really see why Kishimoto would build so much tension of revealing Tobi after we've found out he's not the real Madara, if he just turns out to be some clone.


----------



## jacamo (May 30, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Oh well, you guys better prepare for ''the long haired masked man'' was the real Madara.



thats impossible

Nagato had the Rinnegan by the time... therefore Madara was dead


----------



## Artful Lurker (May 30, 2012)

His broother


----------



## Easley (May 30, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Nope, he called him Madara because Madara controles him.
> Moreover Kisame reffers him as indirectly Madara in a cocky way, ''so your him, Mizukage sama or should i say Madara''.
> And Look Madara was controling the Mizukage.. I bet you Tobi was next to Yagura and Madara there but Kishi couldn't reveal that yet, or else people would have known Tobi not being Madara and the long haired one being Madara for over year ago already.


The person who controlled Yagura was recognized by Kisame. Simple as that. Tobi took off his mask and Kisame  knew him.

Even if Tobi isn't Madara he's still the guy who Kisame recognized, and that means the same person.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 30, 2012)

Why do you people wish that Tobi is Madara?
Don't you think that's absolutely booring?!?
We have 26 Madaras fighting the Kages at the moment, why ffs you want another one?
Madara is really not the final villain I desire. His potential is used up. It would be a real disappointment if Tobi was Madara or a clone and Kishi wouldn't let his masterpiece end that stupid, really.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 30, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Where did you got this fact from?



Madara's comment about Nagato growing up indicates that he was supposed to revive him once he mastered Rinne Tensei.

However, that didn't happen even after Nagato learned the technique. So Tobi either didn't tell Nagato about that part of the plan or they both decided to act differently.

Either way, Tobi is the one in control now, not Madara.


----------



## Mateush (May 30, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Madara's comment about Nagato growing up indicates that he was supposed to revive him once he mastered Rinne Tensei.
> 
> However, that didn't happen even after Nagato learned the technique. So Tobi either didn't tell Nagato about that part of the plan or they both decided to act differently.
> 
> Either way, Tobi is the one in control now, not Madara.



OK. I think it's a little too complicated, but also very simple.
Nagato couldn't even revive Jiraiya, so why he could revive Madara who is much older?

Also about Madara expected Nagato to revive him and Tobi seemingly talked about the same thing without any contradiction. I think Tobi really loves Madara or he is just a pawn.


----------



## Talis (May 30, 2012)

jacamo said:


> thats impossible
> 
> Nagato had the Rinnegan by the time... therefore Madara was dead


Did you saw it happening?
No?
He just said that Nagato was grown, everything could have happend, he might lost Nagato when he was looking for him and died, Madara even told Yahiko to create Akatsuki which means that Yahiko was in his prime time obviously.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 30, 2012)

Mateush said:


> OK. I think it's a little too complicated, but also very simple.
> Nagato couldn't even revive Jiraiya, so why he could revive Madara who is much older?



Nagato could have revived Jiraiya, but he didn't because he had no reason to.

Madara clearly intended for Nagato to revive him, so it must be possible.



> Also about Madara expected Nagato to revive him and Tobi seemingly talked about the same thing without any contradiction. I think Tobi really loves Madara or he is just a pawn.



Tobi said Nagato was supposed to save Rinne Tensei for "me", aka Tobi himself.

Tobi has completely supplanted Madara's role in the plan. He intends to be the one to cast Infinite Tsukuyomi.



loool3 said:


> Did you saw it happening?
> No?
> He just said that Nagato was grown, everything could have happend, he might lost Nagato when he was looking for him and died, Madara even told Yahiko to create Akatsuki which means that Yahiko was in his prime time obviously.



Madara himself said he awakened his Rinnegan shortly before his death. For Nagato to possess the Rinnegan as a young child means Madara died around that time.


----------



## Talis (May 30, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Madara himself said he awakened his Rinnegan shortly before his death. For Nagato to possess the Rinnegan as a young child means Madara died around that time.


Tobi showed Madara's whole past to Sasuke, he never was in the flashback even the long haired masked guy was Madara himself.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 30, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Tobi showed Madara's whole past to Sasuke, he never was in the flashback even the long haired masked guy was Madara himself.



That is irrelevant and no, Tobi didn't show Sasuke anything. The visual imagery was for the reader's benefit.


----------



## Mateush (May 30, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Nagato could have revived Jiraiya, but he didn't because he had no reason to.
> 
> Madara clearly intended for Nagato to revive him, so it must be possible.


Nagato would have no reason, because he killed Jiraiya unnecessarily, just like the others he brutally killed?

No, but seriously it's obviously that Nagato would also revive Jiraiya IF he could. But he couldn't, so it means he had to get more power (probably from all these bijuu) to be able revive Madara. That's why Madara said Nagato finally managed to grow up, because he only means power.


----------



## Talis (May 30, 2012)

Doesn't matter, even the current plot hints ur both of them going to have a clash.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 30, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Nagato would have no reason, because he killed Jiraiya unnecessarily, just like the others he brutally killed?



Why would Nagato have wanted to revive Jiraiya at any point before Naruto converted him?



> No, but seriously it's obviously that Nagato would also revive Jiraiya IF he could. But he couldn't, so it means he had to get more power (probably from all these bijuu) to be able revive Madara. That's why Madara said Nagato finally managed to grow up, because he only means power.



There are a number of possibilities as to why Nagato couldn't revive Jiraiya. Perhaps he only had enough chakra to revive those that he had killed recently. Perhaps Jiraiya's body was too far away. Perhaps there is no reason save for PnJ.

I don't see how growing up equates to obtaining more power, growing up seems to simply suggest mastery of the power he was given.



loool3 said:


> Doesn't matter, even the current plot hints ur both of them going to have a clash.



So you're out of arguments then.

And no, there's really not much at this point suggesting Itachi and Madara will meet, let alone clash.


----------



## Talis (May 30, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> And no, there's really not much at this point suggesting Itachi and Madara will meet, let alone clash.


I am just tired of repeating myself 100 times lol.
Anyways how can you say that the plot doesn't hint.
Plot says Edo is going to be end and Madara flies away like that.
Of course it won't happen like that.
And the scene switched again to Edo Madara you will just see soon enough.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 30, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I am just tired of repeating myself 100 times lol.
> Anyways how can you say that the plot doesn't hint.
> Plot says Edo is going to be end and Madara flies away like that.
> Of course it won't happen like that.
> And the scene switched again to Edo Madara you will just see soon enough.



Madara is going all out right now, that is a sign that his time is coming to an end.


----------



## Shaz (May 30, 2012)

jacamo said:


> thats impossible
> 
> Nagato had the Rinnegan by the time... therefore Madara was dead



I believe the real (Long haired) Madara Uchiha was alive during the time Nagato had the Rinnegan, and I do believe we only saw him twice (During the time Kisame saw him controlling the Mizukage, and when Itachi had met him).

But the question is how do we know that Madara wasn't alive during the time Nagato had awakened the Rinnegan? Perhaps it was a waiting game as implied for him get enough power to be revived (See below to see what power), which is why I believe he said along the lines of, "So.. Nagato has grown up. Though it seems it isn't going according to plan." 

This tells me that he thought that Nagato might of revived him, but then he understood that it had failed. 

So if the last time we saw Long haired Madara, presumably the real Madara Uchiha, was when he met Itachi, this means that Nagato would of just formed Akatsuki not so long ago, and may of not had enough power, as perhaps the initial plan was to revive Madara Uchiha using Rinne Tensei once the power of the nine Bijuu had been captured, as then Madara Uchiha perhaps would become the So6P, however Tobi took advantage of Madara Uchiha's plan, and took over whilst he was dead.

It's just a hunch, and considering Zetsu can record information, and this has been highlighted within the Manga, we haven't really questioned why we're being told he has this ability. I think we are told of his ability as such as a clue that Madara fed information to Tobi via Zetsu.

EDIT: I've just had a thought of why Tobi now uses Zetsu to record battles, usually when he's not present. Perhaps he's not an Uchiha altogether? Notice how he only usually records when a _Sharingan_ is operating, or perhaps he is an Uchiha, but he is trying to enhance it even further, or to create power using it, that has never been seen before by a Sharingan user.


----------



## son_michael (May 30, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Nagato could have revived Jiraiya, but he didn't because he had no reason to.
> 
> Madara clearly intended for Nagato to revive him, so it must be possible.




nagato said anyone dead more than 24 hours could not be revived


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 30, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Words.



No dude, Madara said it himself, he died shortly after first awakening his Rinnegan.



son_michael said:


> nagato said anyone dead more than 24 hours could not be revived



Find me the page where he says that.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 30, 2012)

Maybe I lost the track, but what's that Nagato revive discussion about?


----------



## NW (May 30, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Maybe I lost the track, but what's that Nagato revive discussion about?


I think it's about why Nagato didn't resurrect Madara.


----------



## Talis (May 30, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Madara is going all out right now, that is a sign that his time is coming to an end.


Theres still a whole bunch of shits to reveal lol, he surely won't go away.


----------



## Talis (May 30, 2012)

son_michael said:


> nagato said anyone dead more than 24 hours could not be revived


lol, Nagato's fandom is saying that. 
But it might has a time limit, which supports the reason why Tobi intended to use Rinne Tensei on Madara which means that he didn't die that long time ago.


----------



## Shaz (May 30, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> No dude, Madara said it himself, he died shortly after first awakening his Rinnegan.




That's true. Does this mean the Narutoverse has wigs


----------



## Shaz (May 30, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> No dude, Madara said it himself, he died shortly after first awakening his Rinnegan.




On second thoughts, how do we even know that Madara unlocked the Rinnegan right after his battle with Hashirama? Perhaps it took him a while to actually unlock it, as he had to merge cells, perhaps he used Orochimaru to help him do this? Also how did Madara die really? I believe it was natural death, thus he died after long research of Hashirama's cells and success in unlocking the Rinnegan. 

Remembering that the Rinnegan is a godly dojutsu, couldn't of just been to eat Hashirama as a cannibal and a Rinnegan lights up in your eye socket.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember being told he unlocked it right after the battle with Hashirama. However we were told he died shortly _after_ he unlocked the Rinnegan.


----------



## Punished Pathos (May 30, 2012)

I think I figured out how Tobi was able to control the Nine-Tails Fox with a base sharingan.
What if the Senju Dna/Zetsu material give a base sharingan user the ability to control bijuu? It doesn't seem so far-fetched.
Hashirama's DNA was sought after for this ability as well.
I can see the trait of controlling Bjiuu from Hashirama's DNA being projected by the Sharingan.


----------



## son_michael (May 30, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Find me the page where he says that.




i searched a bit and couldn't find it, closest thing I found was in jap flaps translation where Nagato said "there's still time to save the people in konoha"(not exact quote as I closed the page before typing this)

Maybe he stated that time limit when he was reviving the other pains? I don't know, I remembered him saying it but I guess ill have to retract my statement as I can't find evidence to support it.


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 30, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I think it's about why Nagato didn't resurrect Madara.





Madara says "you haven't captured the kyubi yet".
That means he expected him to be captured.
Obviously the plan was to revive him, after all Bijuus are captured.
That's the reason for Nagato to have not revived him before.
Than he got talk-jutsued by Naruto and changed his plans.
But what has that to do with Tobi?


----------



## Mateush (May 30, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Maybe I lost the track, but what's that Nagato revive discussion about?



It's about what if Tobi betrayed Madara, actually not to tell him to revive Madara.


----------



## Shaz (May 30, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Obviously the plan was to revive him, after all Bijuus are captured.




But the question is why Kabuto knowing this, revived Madara before this was accomplished. Which implies to the audience that Tobi has actually betrayed Madara Uchiha. Perhaps Tobi's plan was to stick to the plan set by Madara up until he collected all the Bijuu, and after doing so, he would ditch the plan and re-merge the Bijuu and recreate Juubi and become it's jinjuriki, which is why perhaps Kabuto resurrected Madara, as Madara's purpose isn't just to play around with the Kage, but to also regain control of the plan, and as Kabuto is the jutsu user, he probably plans to use this to his advantage to turn Madara against Tobi.

As interesting as this is, I think we're kind of going a bit far from the topic itself, when this is actually about Tobi's identity. Though motive's are involved, but it seems to not actually help us in getting closer to his real identity firmly.


----------



## NW (May 30, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> But the question is why Kabuto knowing this, revived Madara before this was accomplished. Which implies to the audience that Tobi has actually betrayed Madara Uchiha. Perhaps Tobi's plan was to stick to the plan set by Madara up until he collected all the Bijuu, and after doing so, he would ditch the plan and re-merge the Bijuu and recreate Juubi and become it's jinjuriki, which is why perhaps Kabuto resurrected Madara, as Madara's purpose isn't just to play around with the Kage, but to also regain control of the plan, and as Kabuto is the jutsu user, he probably plans to use this to his advantage to turn Madara against Tobi.
> 
> As interesting as this is, I think we're kind of going a bit far from the topic itself, when this is actually about Tobi's identity. Though motive's are involved, but it seems to not actually help us in getting closer to his real identity firmly.


tbh, this thread has just been going around in complete circles for the last few weeks, lol. We haven't and some REALLY good evidence towards his identity since a few weeks ago. Someone needs to come up with some new stuff and fast.


----------



## Punished Pathos (May 30, 2012)

Tobi has to be Kagami or any old Uchiha from the Leaf.
He made some interesting comments while he was fighting Fu and Torune.


I can't see him being Obito, I never did.
Tobi has so much knowledge on random Jutsus, he even made references to older characters.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Obito wouldn't even know who Mito was -_-


----------



## Crystaltiger (May 30, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> tbh, this thread has just been going around in complete circles for the last few weeks, lol. We haven't and some REALLY good evidence towards his identity since a few weeks ago. Someone needs to come up with some new stuff and fast.



There is no new stuff. I think we took a look at all current possibilities:
-Obito
-Kagami
-Shusui
-Izuna
-(Madara)
-Elder Son

I don't think there are any further hints yet. So we have to wait for Kishi to throw some new stuff at us.


----------



## Shaz (May 30, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> tbh, this thread has just been going around in complete circles for the last few weeks, lol. We haven't and some REALLY good evidence towards his identity since a few weeks ago. Someone needs to come up with some new stuff and fast.



It's been too many years since this man under the mask has been trolling us, and I believe during this journey in time, some people have lost a lot of brain cells, and there aren't enough facts and clues even after these many years to come up with something new. In fact everything we've said has probably been said at least once, if not a countless of times before.

Every other theory than the current ones lurking about would really be hard to imagine, and may not even be suitable. Now though, I just see a war currently, basically indirectly saying "Fuck you, it isn't Obito it's Kagami", "No fuck you, it is Obito, it's not Kagami", then we have all the other people coming in with their theories, a bit of a clusterfuck if you ask me.


----------



## NW (May 30, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> There is no new stuff. I think we took a look at all current possibilities:
> -Obito
> -Kagami
> -Shusui
> ...


I know that there aren't any more possible candidates. What I meant in my post was I was hoping that someone could come up with some new evidence/last minute asspull in order to further support one or more of the theories.



MissinqNin said:


> It's been too many years since this man under the mask has been trolling us, and I believe during this journey in time, some people have lost a lot of brain cells, and there aren't enough facts and clues even after these many years to come up with something new. In fact everything we've said has probably been said at least once, if not a countless of times before.
> 
> Every other theory than the current ones lurking about would really be hard to imagine, and may not even be suitable. Now though, I just see a war currently, basically indirectly saying "Fuck you, it isn't Obito it's Kagami", "No fuck you, it is Obito, it's not Kagami", then we have all the other people coming in with their theories, a bit of a clusterfuck if you ask me.


Yeah, lol. This perfectly sums up how much of a mindfuck trying to find out Tobi's identity has been.


----------



## Shaz (May 30, 2012)

I really want to try get more evidence to support any likely theory however the question comes down to, whats the point? I have a feeling we'll all be disappointed, and that will be due to poor presentation of the character and introduction when revealed rather than who it'll be. I think as deeply as I've seen each possible theory analyzed, just leads me to believe that the actual result will not even be that complex. Infact Kishimoto is probably sitting on the can right now, taking a shit and remembers that he forgot about Tobi, and makes panels on toilet paper.

Just think it won't reach that level of complexity or effort in revealing his identity, judged on all previous build ups and long-waited arrival of information. I believe it's best to ease your clutches around your theories and try just eliminate anything which may even have even the most smallest of doubts within it.

Better yet, have patience rather than creating a new delicacy of scrambled brain.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 30, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> On second thoughts, how do we even know that Madara unlocked the Rinnegan right after his battle with Hashirama? Perhaps it took him a while to actually unlock it, as he had to merge cells, perhaps he used Orochimaru to help him do this? Also how did Madara die really? I believe it was natural death, thus he died after long research of Hashirama's cells and success in unlocking the Rinnegan.
> 
> Remembering that the Rinnegan is a godly dojutsu, couldn't of just been to eat Hashirama as a cannibal and a Rinnegan lights up in your eye socket.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember being told he unlocked it right after the battle with Hashirama. However we were told he died shortly _after_ he unlocked the Rinnegan.



You are correct, Madara didn't unlock it immediately after his battle with Hashirama. This is also something Madara himself noted.

However, for Nagato to possess the Rinnegan as a child, that means Madara had to have died when Nagato was very young.

Way before the Masked Man controlled Yagura and way before the Uchiha Massacre. Tobi was the one behind both of those incidents.



son_michael said:


> i searched a bit and couldn't find it, closest thing I found was in jap flaps translation where Nagato said "there's still time to save the people in konoha"(not exact quote as I closed the page before typing this)
> 
> Maybe he stated that time limit when he was reviving the other pains? I don't know, I remembered him saying it but I guess ill have to retract my statement as I can't find evidence to support it.



Yeah, I probably should have told you that up front instead of making you go look for something that didn't exist. Sorry bout that. 



TobiUchiha111 said:


> tbh, this thread has just been going around in complete circles for the last few weeks, lol. We haven't and some REALLY good evidence towards his identity since a few weeks ago. Someone needs to come up with some new stuff and fast.



The thread's been going in circles because there has been no real game changers in terms of Tobi's identity since Madara's comment about Izuna.

At the rate things are moving though, it'll start to pick up soon, hopefully for the last time.


----------



## †obitobi (May 31, 2012)

jacamo said:


> so Obito accomplished all of that in a 2 year period? thats just not feasible imo... you are making too many assumptions for a kid who was only capable of Katon and base Sharingan less than 2 years prior to fighting Minato



In my opinion, that's the point of the said enhancements. To make it feasible.





jacamo said:


> Obito has the Will of Fire, so that makes no sense


Please cite this specific effect from the will of fire.




jacamo said:


> Tobi was alone with Kushina, he had no reason to lie


Just like Tobi had no reason to take off his mask for Konan?




jacamo said:


> how can you say the Kyuubi only recognised the ability to control him when he says "You"... the Kyuubi clearly identified who Tobi was at that point



I don't quite know what you mean, here.




jacamo said:


> the Kyuubi clearly has NO problem recognising Madara's chakra anyway, as you can clearly see below in chapter 561



I'll give you this one. But one can still plausibly interpret Kurama's "recognizing" of Tobi as a mistake, because of his mistake with Sasuke.





jacamo said:


> all top tier ninja can recognise chakra to some extent... especially if its someone as intimate as your student


No indication of that whatsoever, in my opinion. I don't believe that "all top tier ninja can recognize chakra to some extent" has even been implicitly indicated, much less to the refutation of the other three points that I've mentioned.

_



			2. Tobi can mask his chakra.
3. Zetsu parts can mimmic the chakra of anyone.
4. Minato didn't try to recognize Tobi's chakra.
		
Click to expand...

_​



jacamo said:


> no, its a massive stretch to say Madara knew Obito... i couldnt have laid it out any better than i did



Your point seems dependent on Madara giving his own Rinnegan to Nagato, thus dying before Obito was born. But there is nothing specifying exactly what Tobi meant by Nagato's Rinnegan being "his", because after all, it doesn't have to be _attached_ for him to "own" it


and the Rinnegan itself may still be a genetic mutation, even if the Rikudo Sennin was real.




jacamo said:


> its Minato that was 5-10 years younger than Nagato, not Obito... by the time Tobi implants Nagato with Madara's Rinnegan, Madara has to be dead


There's no more indication of how old Minato is than Obito, so there's  no point in speculation on that. At least with Obito, we know that he was around 13 during the third shinobi world war, at which time the Nagato could've assumedly been in his late teens to early 20's.

That's about 5 to 10 years.




jacamo said:


> no, to make that comparison Tobi has to be from that era



Again, he doesn't. If Itachi would've compared Sasuke to Izuna or Madara, he would've been completely justified despite not being from that era, because he's seen them for himself in someway.



jacamo said:


> what? at that point Kabuto already knows Tobi isnt Madara... there was absolutely no reason to lie or act... the jig was up!!!
> 
> if Tobi told Kabuto he fought Hashirama, then he did


"No reason to lie" is a fallacy and can't be proven.




jacamo said:


> Madara couldnt have taught Obito, they werent even alive at the same time... as an infant? before Obito even left Konoha for that mission? no way


For illustrative purposes:



Explain why Tobi didn't take his mask off despite:

1. His plan for Konan
2. His broken mask



jacamo said:


> the plotholes make that impossible
> 
> 
> all this multitasking has made me weary... im done


There are no plot holes for this hypothesis; at least, in my opinion. Just different opinions.


----------



## Mateush (May 31, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Why would Nagato have wanted to revive Jiraiya at any point before Naruto converted him?



Sorry by then I didn't wanted to debate with someone. Nagato would revive Jiraiya, not only these he recently killed. Jiraiya was his master, so he wouldn't forgot about his master, but he couldn't help it probably because the time limit. Also someone here said that Madara seemingly expected Kurama captured, but it didn't happen so his original plan was wrenched.

Tobi wanted to sync Nagato with the Gedo Mazo, but it didn't happen while he was alive, so it means that statue would need all bijuu chakra to make Nagato very powerful and capable to revive Madara? Somehow it has to be connected with Madara's plan.



First Tsurugi said:


> There are a number of possibilities as to why Nagato couldn't revive Jiraiya. Perhaps he only had enough chakra to revive those that he had killed recently. Perhaps Jiraiya's body was too far away. Perhaps there is no reason save for PnJ.
> 
> I don't see how growing up equates to obtaining more power, growing up seems to simply suggest mastery of the power he was given.



It probably is something like you said, therefore Nagato couldn't revive Jiraiya, not because he didn't care about that. That's what I meant about Madara would be impossible to revive unless you have enough chakra or whatever.


----------



## Escargon (May 31, 2012)

Is it just me or do Tobi seem to have different eyeshapes in some pannels?

His Uchihaeyesocket seems to be like any other Uchiha, but the Rinnegan seems to be more.. like a snake eye.

I noticed this a long time ago but after watching Naruto online i could clearly see that the eyes were clearly in different shapes.

EDIT: Rofl why do Tobis mask looks so much like Friends mask from 20th century boys?


----------



## NW (May 31, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Is it just me or do Tobi seem to have different eyeshapes in some pannels?
> 
> His Uchihaeyesocket seems to be like any other Uchiha, but the Rinnegan seems to be more.. like a snake eye.
> 
> ...


I've noticed that too. Sometimes it seems as if the shape of the eye socket his rinnegan is in is different from the one his sharingan is in. Though, this is most likely due to the many circles of the Rinnegan, which sometimes go on the very corner of the eye, making it hard to see if it's a rounded edge or not. Though, for the most part, his eyeshape looks the same.


----------



## First Tsurugi (May 31, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Sorry by then I didn't wanted to debate with someone. Nagato would revive Jiraiya, not only these he recently killed. Jiraiya was his master, so he wouldn't forgot about his master, but he couldn't help it probably because the time limit. Also someone here said that Madara seemingly expected Kurama captured, but it didn't happen so his original plan was wrenched.
> 
> Tobi wanted to sync Nagato with the Gedo Mazo, but it didn't happen while he was alive, so it means that statue would need all bijuu chakra to make Nagato very powerful and capable to revive Madara? Somehow it has to be connected with Madara's plan.
> 
> It probably is something like you said, therefore Nagato couldn't revive Jiraiya, not because he didn't care about that. That's what I meant about Madara would be impossible to revive unless you have enough chakra or whatever.



I get what you mean now. I'll admit collecting all the bijuu and using their power to power up Rinne Tensei would make sense, but I'm still not sure I buy that as an explanation.

And in the end Tobi still deceived Nagato and Konan by claiming to be Madara, and not telling them about the real one, so he is clearly not following "the plan".


----------



## jacamo (May 31, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> That's the point of the said enhancements. To make it feasible.



still doesnt make it feasible



> Cite this specific effect from the will of fire.



Izanami wouldnt work on Obito because his Will of Fire was his true self... anyway, the original point was that Izanami could explain Obito's Personality U-turn, when it doesnt explain it at all

Obitos personality turning vengeful within 2 years is still a plothole



> Just like Tobi had no reason to take off his mask for Konan?



dont compare apples and oranges... original point - "do you have ANY idea how long ive waited for this moment?" it make no sense for someone as young as Obito to say that 

its still a plothole



> No indication of that whatsoever, in my opinion. I don't believe that "all top tier ninja can recognize chakra to some extent" has even been implicitly indicated, much less to the refutation of the other three points that I've mentioned.



i still say Minato would have figured out he was fighting his own student

no indication, just based on common sense



> Your point seems dependent on Madara giving his own Rinnegan to Nagato, thus dying before Obito was born. But there is nothing specifying exactly what Tobi meant by Nagato's Rinnegan being "his", because after all, it doesn't have to be _attached_ for him to "own" it



if youre going to start challenging what Tobi exactly meant... then youre clutching at straws



> There's no more indication of how old Minato is than Obito, so there's  no point in speculation on that. At least with Obito, we know that he was around 13 during the third shinobi world war, at which time the Nagato could've assumedly been in his late teens to early 20's.
> 
> That's about 5 to 10 years.



the point is, Nagato is much older than Obito (at least 10 years older) so it makes absolutely no sense for Tobi to be Obito when Tobi was the one who spurred Yahiko to create Akatsuki in the first place

or was Obito plotting all this before he even graduated from the academy? give me a break 



> Again, he doesn't. If Itachi would've compared Sasuke to Izuna or Madara, he would've been completely justified despite not being from that era, because he's seen them for himself in someway.



again, comparing apples and oranges... to make those comments Tobi has to be as old as Danzo at least, and as you can see Tobi even knows Torune's father, Aburame Shikuro... it would be a plothole for Obito to know someone like that




> "No reason to lie" is a fallacy and can't be proven.



and you saying Tobi lied is also a fallacy that cant be proven... what Tobi said to Kabuto dates Tobi as someone who is at least as old as Danzo



> For illustrative purposes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol this has nothing to do with what i said



> There are no plot holes for this hypothesis; at least, in my opinion. Just different opinions.



if you really believe the Obito theory has no plotholes then youre in denial



ok im really done this time... if you reply i will read it but i wont respond 

ive already delivered on what ive had to say about Obito:

.
.
.
.
.
.




MissinqNin said:


> I believe the real (Long haired) Madara Uchiha was alive during the time Nagato had the Rinnegan, and I do believe we only saw him twice (During the time Kisame saw him controlling the Mizukage, and when Itachi had met him).
> 
> But the question is how do we know that Madara wasn't alive during the time Nagato had awakened the Rinnegan? Perhaps it was a waiting game as implied for him get enough power to be revived (See below to see what power), which is why I believe he said along the lines of, "So.. Nagato has grown up. Though it seems it isn't going according to plan."
> 
> This tells me that he thought that Nagato might of revived him, but then he understood that it had failed.



i could never believe the long haired Tobi was the real Madara because Nagato had the Rinnegan for YEARS at that point... it would then be a complete contradiction for Madara to say "i died shortly after awakening these eyes"

it also kind of breaks down because Nagato always thought that Tobi was Uchiha Madara in the first place... Nagato and Konan never found out


----------



## †obitobi (May 31, 2012)

jacamo said:


> still doesnt make it feasible


Please explain why.




jacamo said:


> Izanami wouldnt work on Obito because his Will of Fire was his true self...


/insert ironic grasping at straws reference



jacamo said:


> anyway, the original point was that Izanami could explain Obito's Personality U-turn, when it doesnt explain it at all


The very function of Izanami is to change someone's personality. Ask Itachi.




jacamo said:


> dont compare apples and oranges...


It's not complex. Stop making out to be. The only difference is that one event compliments your hypothesis, and one opposes it. He couldn't have been dishonest to Kushina about his waiting just because there was "no reason to lie", but when it comes to showing his face, then there was a reason then?





jacamo said:


> i still say Minato would have figured out he was fighting his own student
> 
> no indication, just based on common sense


Besides the sheer fallacy that is the assumption of a specific person having a specific ability in this manga, common sense suggests that the information is common, and that's exactly what's in question to begin with.

Where is you claim in the manga?




jacamo said:


> if youre going to start challenging what Tobi exactly meant... then youre clutching at straws


So if we don't assume exactly what you're assuming despite the information allowing us to have different interpretations, then we're clutching at straws?

How about you explain why Nagato's Rinnegan has to be Madara's instead of trolling.




jacamo said:


> the point is, Nagato is much older than Obito (at least 10 years older) so it makes absolutely no sense for Tobi to be Obito when Tobi was the one who spurred Yahiko to create Akatsuki in the first place



Other than the possibility that Tobi was speaking on behalf of Madara.

ps. if Madara was the one who spurred Yahiko to create Akatsuki after Nagato had met Yahiko, then that actually confirms that Madara's Rinnegan isn't Nagato's, in my opinion.




jacamo said:


> again, comparing apples and oranges... to make those comments Tobi has to be as old as Danzo at least, and as you can see Tobi even knows Torune's father, Aburame Shikuro... it would be a plothole for Obito to know someone like that



Please read this, as you seem to be ignoring this quite consistently.

Itachi is not from Madara's era, and is in fact younger than Obito. How do you suppose that Itachi knows about Madara and Izuna?

One doesn't have to be from any specific era to know the history on it, obviously.

ps. To your refutation about Madara dying before Obito was born, I'll again ask you to cite that the Rinnegan in edo Uchiha Madara's head is now the Rinnegan in Tobi's head, and that Nagato's Rinnegan was implanted. 




jacamo said:


> and you saying Tobi lied is also a fallacy that cant be proven... what Tobi said to Kabuto dates Tobi as someone who is at least as old as Danzo


No one said anything about his statement being confirmed as false, as it could've very well been the truth. Just stating what the evidence _*suggests*_:



> 1. Madara resurrected with ET
> 2. Tobi not taking the name "Madara" anymore
> 3. His continual masquerading despite apparently having "no reason" to lie to Konan.



This indicates that he's not Madara, and thus didn't fight with Hashirama.

And now your job is to tell me _*why*_ these points _don't_ indicate that he _didn't_ fight with Hashirama, by posting _*actual evidence*_ from the manga.



jacamo said:


> lol this has nothing to do with what i said



It shows your hypocrisy.



jacamo said:


> if you really believe the Obito theory has no plotholes then youre in denial


You are in denial if you believe that what you've posted has been sound logic.


----------



## Shaz (May 31, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> You are correct, Madara didn't unlock it immediately after his battle with Hashirama. This is also something Madara himself noted.
> 
> However, for Nagato to possess the Rinnegan as a child, that means Madara had to have died when Nagato was very young.
> 
> Way before the Masked Man controlled Yagura and way before the Uchiha Massacre. Tobi was the one behind both of those incidents.




I think that Madara was alive during Orochimaru's time anyway, as Orochimaru experimented on Yamato with _Hashirama's_ DNA, and I think he got it from Madara himself, in exchange for implanting Hashirama's cells into Madara as well to help him awaken the Rinnegan but also created Zetsu, which was then used on Tobi.

Fits I think, especially as we know Orochimaru was that experimental type, which I believe is also how he got into Akatsuki, as he wanted to watch Itachi, which interested him in Sasuke. Tobi knowing Orochimaru was spying on Akatsuki for a while, however due to their secret, he didn't do anything, however Itachi was one of the reasons Orochimaru left the organization. 

Now knowing Orochimaru and his experiments, I don't doubt him toying with Obito's body or even Obito alive, which could be an easy way to convert Obito to a complete and permanent psychopath. Also I won't speculate any longer either on Kagami, as we haven't yet got enough information about him, and introducing him further _after_ Tobi is revealed seems absurd to me.


----------



## NW (May 31, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I think that Madara was alive during Orochimaru's time anyway, as Orochimaru experimented on Yamato with _Hashirama's_ DNA, and I think he got it from Madara himself, in exchange for implanting Hashirama's cells into Madara as well to help him awaken the Rinnegan but also created Zetsu, which was then used on Tobi.
> 
> Fits I think, especially as we know Orochimaru was that experimental type, which I believe is also how he got into Akatsuki, as he wanted to watch Itachi, which interested him in Sasuke. Tobi knowing Orochimaru was spying on Akatsuki for a while, however due to their secret, he didn't do anything, however Itachi was one of the reasons Orochimaru left the organization.
> 
> Now knowing Orochimaru and his experiments, I don't doubt him toying with Obito's body or even Obito alive, which could be an easy way to convert Obito to a complete and permanent psychopath. *Also I won't speculate any longer either on Kagami, as we haven't yet got enough information about him, and introducing him further after Tobi is revealed seems absurd to me.*


Well, then going by _that_ logic, he can't be anyone but Obito.(Not that I have a porblem with that) But, I don't think that his identity necessarily needs to be someone introduced before him. Even if it's someone introduced after, Such as maybe Kagami or Izuna, as long as we recognize the character, then it's still a possibility. Well, Maybe Izuna or Obito. I really don't think it's Kagami now, though, because what's the point of Tobi being someone barely anyone recognizes. Hell, when I first saw these Kagami theories, i was like "Who the f*ck is this freak?!" and it's moments like those that are a major reason why he can't be Tobi. So, the only real possible candidates I see left are Obito and Izuna.


----------



## jacamo (May 31, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> The very function of Izanami is to change someone's personality. Ask Itachi.



no its not, you misunderstood


----------



## Shaz (May 31, 2012)

Izanami is used to _restore_ one's personality to it's true self.

Also there is a Tobi quote which reminds me of Obito:
"The moment people come to know love, they run the risk of carrying hate." - Remember Obito in his "Final" words did imply he loved Rin, perhaps her death was a contribution to ignite that hatred.


Though it is possible it can be someone like Kagami or even with some asspull Izuna after all the confirmations of his death, I still think there is a lot of chance it'll end up Obito due to Kishi's style, he'll basically be an experiment that went rogue after being tested on by Orochimaru for Madara, which is why it now seems Tobi has betrayed Madara. I think Hashirama's cells merged with Tobi but couldn't straight away with Madara, thus the whole Yamato experiment with Hashirama's cells, then Orochimaru took Tobi's cells, which were Uchiha and Senju DNA which were fused and gave them to Madara who then awakened the Rinnegan, thus the reason Tobi calls the Rinnegan his own to Konan. The Zetsu is Hashirama's cells, which has Hashirama's memory. Notice how Yamato can use Wood release/mokuton but Tobi can't yet he has Zetsu implants, and Orochimaru did call Yamato a failed experiment, perhaps the aim for Yamato's experiment was to gain the memory from Hashirama's cells as Tobi presumably has, however this failed with Yamato but worked with Tobi, perhaps as Tobi was an Uchiha able to relay those memories from his zetsu cells with his Sharingan but Yamato couldn't.


----------



## NW (Jun 1, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Izanami is used to _restore_ one's personality to it's true self.
> 
> Also there is a Tobi quote which reminds me of Obito:
> "The moment people come to know love, they run the risk of carrying hate." - Remember Obito in his "Final" words did imply he loved Rin, perhaps her death was a contribution to ignite that hatred.
> ...


No matter who Tobi really is, I hope Orochimaru isn't involved too much with his past. He's played a big enough role in the manga already, plus, he's living on in Kabuto currently. I'm not saying that they weren't involved at all, just that I think their interaction was probably minimal. Well, anyway, I got a little off topic there. I'm still going for Obito or Izuna since we'd recognize them and they are both Kishi's writing style from what I've seen. 
*Izuna:*_Kishi's 'Brother Theme'_
*Obito:*_Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto so an evil Obito would make a great villain and Anti-Thesis to Naruto._

I'd also like to say that it can't be anyone from RS's time, since Tobi didn't know the Biju's names. Sure, you could argue that RS simply didn't tell his sons the names but i find that very unlikely. _Maaaaybe_ Juubi though, since we never got an explanation for what happened to his soul, only his body and chakra, so it's possible he's using someone as a vessel. Although, I also find this unlikely because if the Juubi's soul still remained, then he would have been around to hear the names, and I doubt that he wouldn't know the names of the things he was split into, they are, after all, parts of him.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 1, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Well, anyway, I got a little off topic there. I'm still going for Obito or Izuna since we'd recognize them and they are both Kishi's writing style from what I've seen.
> *Izuna:*_Kishi's 'Brother Theme'_
> *Obito:*_Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto so an evil Obito would make a great villain and Anti-Thesis to Naruto._



Elder Son theory has strong parallels with Final Fantasy 8.
Mangaka often pull parallels to other stories, and Kishi cooperated once with final fantasy.


----------



## Mateush (Jun 1, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Elder Son theory has strong parallels with Final Fantasy 8.
> Mangaka often pull parallels to other stories, and Kishi cooperated once with final fantasy.



How does Elder Son has parallels with FF8? It was a quite time ago I played it, so I don't remember all pieces.



First Tsurugi said:


> I get what you mean now. I'll admit collecting all the bijuu and using their power to power up Rinne Tensei would make sense, but I'm still not sure I buy that as an explanation.
> 
> And in the end Tobi still deceived Nagato and Konan by claiming to be Madara, and not telling them about the real one, so he is clearly not following "the plan".



Yeah if he really is not a direct continuation after Madara's death, which could mean only Madara or Izuna. If he's not Madara or Izuna, so who the hell it could be. I hope it'll be a nice twist, at least awesome as Edo Madara's entry.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 1, 2012)

Mateush said:


> How does Elder Son has parallels with FF8? It was a quite time ago I played it, so I don't remember all pieces.



I haven't played it. I just checked the story after a nice guy wrote this to me:


> Your Tobi theory is EXCEPTIONAL! Beautifuul. I love how it incorporates Madara & Obito. Have you ever played Final Fantasy 8? This "Elder Brother is posessing the Uchiha" is VERY similar to what happens in that game, with the sorceresses getting possesed by Ultimecia who was the ultimate sorceress descended from the original sorceress herself. She even activated sorceress power in some of her hosts. If you haven't played FF8, then I highly recommend that you check the wiki & see what I am talking about. I am stunned by the parallels between Naruto & FF8. They both have creatures on da moon & associate them with the eye. Both have rivals & one allys with the party that is possesing the current villain. The main character's pop has fought the party possesing the current villain & halted it's plan. Main character even gives their rival a scar on da forehead after they clash. I will await a response before elaborating further. I support your theory. Well done.


----------



## SaturdayMourning (Jun 1, 2012)

It's not Obito. He's dead. And he was not alive in Madara's time, and "Tobi" was. Madara implied that he was working with him back then by saying to Kabuto, "do you know about our plan"?

It's not Izuna. Madara said that he was dead. Like I said above, Madara was working with the masked man.

Nor is it the other random ass Uchihas that has showed up in the story line at least once or a few times.


----------



## Mateush (Jun 1, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> I haven't played it. I just checked the story after a nice guy wrote this to me:



I see. I really don't agree him, because there are no enough info about Elder Son. I think you shouldn't trust him and think with your own brain instead.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 1, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I see. I really don't agree him, because there are no enough info about Elder Son. I think you shouldn't trust him and think with your own brain instead.



This sounds like you think i didn't think with my own brain.
I made up a huge theory, which is accepted by enough people to be able to say, that I did well with my own brain. Btw the "no info about Elder Son"-point is the only point that speaks against my theory and you can use this point for every other theory, since we don't know stuff or Izuna or Kagami too, we even don't know that much about Obito.


----------



## son_michael (Jun 1, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> This sounds like you think i didn't think with my own brain.
> I made up a huge theory, which is accepted by enough people to be able to say, that I did well with my own brain. Btw the "no info about Elder Son"-point is the only point that speaks against my theory and you can use this point for every other theory, since we don't know stuff or Izuna or Kagami too, we even don't know that much about Obito.



or the biggest thing against your theory. the fact that... if the elder son is alive then so should the youngest son. Especially since his body represents life giving chakra and long life.(As demonstrated by Naruto,Kushina,Tsunade)

and we both know there's no way kishi would have them both be alive.

or...do you really wanna have the elder son cast a surpreme jutsu that allows him to float in between life and death as a ghost regardless of time? You don't want that...nobody wants that.


----------



## Mateush (Jun 1, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> This sounds like you think i didn't think with my own brain.
> I made up a huge theory, which is accepted by enough people to be able to say, that I did well with my own brain. Btw the "no info about Elder Son"-point is the only point that speaks against my theory and you can use this point for every other theory, since we don't know stuff or Izuna or Kagami too, we even don't know that much about Obito.



You didn't think with your own brain, because you used another's argument about Elder Son -> FF8. That's very wrong, unless you already had the same experience. Seriously I think you really should be more critical, even for these another theories which more or less supports yours.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 1, 2012)

son_michael said:


> or the biggest thing against your theory. the fact that... if the elder son is alive then so should the youngest son. Especially since his body represents life giving chakra and long life.(As demonstrated by Naruto,Kushina,Tsunade)
> 
> and we both know there's no way kishi would have them both be alive.
> 
> or...do you really wanna have the elder son cast a surpreme jutsu that allows him to float in between life and death as a ghost regardless of time? You don't want that...nobody wants that.



That jutsu does exist and we know it. It's called Fushi Tensei. Orochimaru's reanimation jutsu. And it's not said that the younger has to live too. The point is, that the elder represents chakra and the eyes. The jutsu is stronger than life force: Orochimaru vs 3rd Hokage.



Mateush said:


> You didn't think with your own brain, because you used another's argument about Elder Son -> FF8. That's very wrong, unless you already had the same experience. Seriously I think you really should be more critical, even for these another theories which more or less supports yours.



I used another one's argument about FF8, but I cannot remember anyone to create a detailed theory about the elder son, but me.
I don't get your "be more critical" point. I just refered to the "hint" that it could be Obito or Izuna, because of the writing style, with the fact, that Mangaka often refer to other Mangaka's stories.


----------



## NW (Jun 1, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> That jutsu does exist and we know it. It's called Fushi Tensei. Orochimaru's reanimation jutsu. And it's not said that the younger has to live too. The point is, that the elder represents chakra and the eyes. The jutsu is stronger than life force: Orochimaru vs 3rd Hokage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It can't be the Elder Son. Tobi doesn't know the Bijuu's names.looked


----------



## Shaz (Jun 1, 2012)

If Tobi was the elder son, why would he remain in hiding during all those years, and not attack before Madara's attack on Konnoha with the Kyuubi during Hashirama's rein. 

Also as it is implied in the Manga, Madara was the "Alpha male" in this partnership, as Kabuto says, "Fake Madara may not follow the plan", now if he was the Elder Son, would he give a shit about Madara? He'd probably be a lot more powerful as he was around during the Sage days, and the first inheritor of the power of the eyes and a pure blood. Also it does raise the question about what happened to the younger son, as he had the body of the Sage, meaning much more reliable life force, thus he would of outlived the Elder son by age, and if he did die, why didn't the Elder Son just use his body, and not bother implanting Zetsu as his limbs as seen in Tobi, as he could just use the Yonger son's body.

I just don't see the reasons of taking up this partnership with Madara. Before Madara came into the story as Edo, it was believable that it could of been the ES, but there seems to be many missed opportunities by the Elder Son. I still don't neglect the theory, as there are many good points as there are in other theories, but I wouldn't see a reason for some of the things Tobi has done, and has not done if he was the Elder Son.


----------



## son_michael (Jun 1, 2012)

the elder son also appeared in 1 panel...hell, we never even saw his face.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 1, 2012)

son_michael said:


> the elder son also appeared in 1 panel...hell, we never even saw his face.



But we know stuff about him. But it's ok we stop that discussion here.


----------



## son_michael (Jun 1, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> But we know stuff about him. But it's ok we stop that discussion here.



yeah....not the best argument against obito


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 1, 2012)

son_michael said:


> yeah....not the best argument against obito



What's that to do with Obito?
Best arguments against obito were delivered by jacamo,


----------



## †obitobi (Jun 1, 2012)

jacamo said:


> no its not, you misunderstood



I apologize if I've become rude.

As far as personality, I suppose that I mean that Izanami is designed to change what the person considers as important. That could explain a lot.


----------



## NW (Jun 1, 2012)

Anyone forgetting this?:  implied request

There's something odd about Tobi's reaction to what Kakashi said. I'm pretty sure that means something. The way his eyes looked, it was as if he was having a flashback.

And, then we have this:  implied request

"Hatake Kakashi. Excellent observation. Good eye. Now... Excuse me while I try and act a bit tough."

Okay, that was just _OBVIOUS._ I mean, Obito and Naruto were exact parallels, and both Tobi and Naruto complimented Kakashi. A compliment from Naruto, the hero, and Tobi, the villain. I doubt *THAT* means anything but I think THIS does. You see, Tobi said Kakashi had a "Good eye." Obito gave Kakashi his eye. Maybe he said the eye was good because it was his. The best part, though, was when Tobi said, "Now, excuse me while I try and act a bit tough." Kakashi was always getting pissed at Obito and telling him to be a better shinobi, and basically, to "act more tough". So, I think Tobi saying that could be another hint that he is Obito. (Or it could be absolutely nothing and I'm just looking to deep into things, but let's just keep that argument out, shall we?) But, Tobi has never talked in that manner around anyone else, if I recall.


Another interesting thing is HERE:  implied request

Now, you may not notice much, but, If I recall, in the official Viz translation of that page, he called him "Hatake SHARINGAN Kakashi". I definitely trust the Viz translation more than the fan ones, so I'll take it as official. This supports the Obito theory because almost every time besides the first one that Tobi met Kakashi, he has made a comment regarding his sharingan. The sharingan which eh GAVE him. (Assuming that Tobi is Obito.) Let's also not forget the fact that Tobi automatically KNEW that Kakashi's Kamui wouldn't work on him. Which still has yet to be explained:  implied request I mean, of course he'd know how HIS(Again, assuming he's Obito) eye would work.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 2, 2012)

Interesting however I do think some points you've made don't directly prove anything, but they could definitely be hints.


----------



## son_michael (Jun 2, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> What's that to do with Obito?
> Best arguments against obito were delivered by jacamo,



you were using the 1 panel argument against obito theory.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 2, 2012)

Tobi would say good EYES if both were open.

You know what? Honestly, Tobi is a clone of Madara.


----------



## Leon (Jun 2, 2012)

My theory is that Tobi is the Curse of Hatred he mentioned. Let's assume for a moment that  Tobi is infact the final villian, what has been the ninja world's greatest problem? Hatred, it's a recurring theme within this manga that hatred is the the polar opposite of love, which Naruto and younger son represent. I think that somehow, the elder son, fueled buy his hatred, used the power of his spiritual energy to create the being that we now know as Tobi. 

This spiritual energy however, lacked the physical energy (which the younger son and his descendants possess) in order to manifest itself physically. Because of this, Tobi has survived through the ages by possessing the Uchiha with his hatred, and he used the strongest Uchiha shinobi as his vessel(s) in order to continue to wage his war against his true sworn enemy, the descendants of the Younger son and the Will of Fire. Tobi latest vessel was Madara, the strongest Uchiha of his time. Thus, what Tobi said to Konan was infact, partially true.

Madara was born with exceptional chakra, as we all know. Tobi took note of this, so he manipulated Madara with his hatred in order to allow him to evolve his eyes and strengthen his vessel. However, Madara (possessed by Tobi, The Curse of Hatred) lost to Hashirama and his Will of Fire, which damaged Madara to the point where he was no longer of use to Tobi. But Tobi did gain Hashirama's DNA, and with it he experimented on Madara, he created Zetsu and he created the body he currently uses as a temporary vessel.

Fast forward to more recent times, Tobi continued to experiment with the combination of Senju/Uzumaki and Uchiha power. Thus he gave Nagato, an Uzumaki full of potential, the Rin'negan, and manipulated him with through hatred. However, Nagato couldn't utilize the Rin'negan as effectively as Tobi had hoped, as he was unable to control the Uchiha aspects of the Rin'negan like Madara could (Using Susano'o, Genjutsu, etc). Thus Tobi set his sights on a new vessel, a vessel with the sinister chakra and potential as Madara, Sasuke. Tobi did say, that Sasuke would be Nagato's replacement as the one to ''sync'' with Gedo Mazo. 

By manipulating the darkness and hatred with Danzo and the elders, he orchestrated the Uchiha massacre completely, in order to help Sasuke progress his eyes. Soon, Sasuke will be ripe for the picking as Tobi's new vessel, which he will empower with Senju DNA and the Juubi, in order to become the true successor of the the Sage's power, just as the Elder Brother wanted. There are a lot of things Tobi has said that hints towards this theory, i'm too lazy to find all the the links, but take a minute and think about it.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 2, 2012)

son_michael said:


> you were using the 1 panel argument against obito theory.



No I meant Kagami.


----------



## Saturnine (Jun 2, 2012)

"I grew this from the tissue I stole from him during our battle"

"These eyes were mine to begin with"

"I am Uchiha Madara, the man who has gained Hashirama Senju's power"

"I gave Nagato the rinnegan" 

"How could Nagato betray me so? The Gedo Rinne Tensei was supposed to be for ME"

Tobi is an artificial construct cloned from Hashirama tissue that houses Madara's will and consciousness. He really is convinced he is Madara.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 2, 2012)

Leon said:


> My theory is that Tobi is the Curse of Hatred he mentioned. Let's assume for a moment that  Tobi is infact the final villian, what has been the ninja world's greatest problem? Hatred, it's a recurring theme within this manga that hatred is the the polar opposite of love, which Naruto and younger son represent. I think that somehow, the elder son, fueled buy his hatred, used the power of his spiritual energy to create the being that we now know as Tobi.
> 
> This spiritual energy however, lacked the physical energy (which the younger son and his descendants possess) in order to manifest itself physically. Because of this, Tobi has survived through the ages by possessing the Uchiha with his hatred, and he used the strongest Uchiha shinobi as his vessel(s) in order to continue to wage his war against his true sworn enemy, the descendants of the Younger son and the Will of Fire. Tobi latest vessel was Madara, the strongest Uchiha of his time. Thus, what Tobi said to Konan was infact, partially true.
> 
> ...



I like this theory, and it would make sense, without looking retarded.

I think it wouldn't set so well with the fans though. I believe for satisfaction, it has to be someone in body and soul, and not just a spiritual energy.

I would really like it to be this though too, I wouldn't be disappointed. It would open up a lot of questions as well as answer many. As well as an opening to new possibilities to continue the Manga.


----------



## Talis (Jun 2, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> No I meant Kagami.


Both are 1 paneled.


----------



## Sasuke (Jun 2, 2012)

Izuna.

Pretty much no one compared with the fame Madara has, intimate with knowledge of Madara, claims the Rinnegan was his (which seeing as it evolved from his eyes which Madara was using, would be true.) etc.


----------



## Gabe (Jun 2, 2012)

i think he is a creation of madaras maybe a better version of zetsu with his and shodais dna


----------



## Krippy (Jun 2, 2012)

Sasuke said:


> Izuna.
> 
> Pretty much no one compared with the fame Madara has, intimate with knowledge of Madara, claims the Rinnegan was his (which seeing as it evolved from his eyes which Madara was using, would be true.) etc.



Seems legit. 

My other theory was that he is a clone of Madara made using whatever Zetsu is made of.


----------



## Mantux31 (Jun 2, 2012)

Kurama knows who's Tobi


----------



## Tasq21 (Jun 2, 2012)

Seriously why do people think Kurama knows Tobi? (not just you Mantux31) He called him masked guy like all the other people...


----------



## Talis (Jun 2, 2012)

He just said ''hey.. you''?!
If some random brat annoys you in real life you also call him ''hey you'', that doesn't mean that you know him as well.
Even someone like me whiches english sux knows that even lol.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 2, 2012)

Tobis mask is way too similar to Friends.

Katsumata implanted Fukubeis face to act like him.

Tobi implanted Madaras face to act like him.

I do see a similarity here..


----------



## Talis (Jun 2, 2012)

What does implanting one's face change someone's acts. 
Everyone implanted Hashirama chakra Dna.
Did they ever act like him? 
No.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 2, 2012)

I mean steal his identity if you mean me=p


----------



## NW (Jun 2, 2012)

i would like to point out that the only plausible Tobi candidates I think are left are Izuna and Obito. I think Obito is more likely, although Izuna is somewhat plausible, too. Can't be Kagami cuz he's too random, and it can't be Elder Son, cuz Tobi doesn't know the Bijuu's names. So, that also eliminates Rikudo, younger Son, and Juubi.


----------



## Mantux31 (Jun 2, 2012)

Tasq21 said:


> Seriously why do people think Kurama knows Tobi? (not just you Mantux31) He called him masked guy like all the other people...



Well in the Anime translation, it said "You are.." boom sharingan'd


----------



## Talis (Jun 2, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> i would like to point out that the only plausible Tobi candidates I think are left are Izuna and Obito. I think Obito is more likely, although Izuna is somewhat plausible, too. Can't be Kagami cuz he's too random, and it can't be Elder Son, cuz Tobi doesn't know the Bijuu's names. So, that also eliminates Rikudo, younger Son, and Juubi.


It can't be Izuna Madara said that he died, he looked sad so Izuna never is Rinne Tensei'd he clearly died.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 2, 2012)

I am disappointed to be honest. All these chapters, and no sign of Tobi. It is way too much build up, for something that could turn out really badly presented, seeing as it has been milked so much.

At the very least, we should see a bit more of him, even if it doesn't mean revelation. Just to gain more clues.

A lot of current theories are based on guess-work, just labelled by motive, which hasn't been addressed for more than a panel or so. Some are feasible, yet lack satisfaction for his identity, or motive. 

Missing pieces to a puzzle.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 2, 2012)

Mantux31 said:


> Well in the Anime translation, it said "You are.." boom sharingan'd



Manga > Anime


----------



## Escargon (Jun 2, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> i would like to point out that the only plausible Tobi candidates I think are left are Izuna and Obito. I think Obito is more likely, although Izuna is somewhat plausible, too. Can't be Kagami cuz he's too random, and it can't be Elder Son, cuz Tobi doesn't know the Bijuu's names. So, that also eliminates Rikudo, younger Son, and Juubi.



Doesnt make sense that Obito is Tobi. Madara gave baby Pain rinnegan and died shortly after, and Madara knows Tobi. How can Tobi be Obito then?

And Madara already stated that Izuna is dead.

He cant be elder som because elder son got different eyeshapes and hairstyle plus hes not a good reason for Kishi to keep that mask on, or Kishi will ruin his whole rep.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 2, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Doesnt make sense that Obito is Tobi. Madara gave baby Pain rinnegan and died shortly after, and Madara knows Tobi. How can Tobi be Obito then?




How do you know the Rinnegan was given to _baby_ Pain? The first time we saw him activating it was during his parents died, which was when he was about 8 years of age. Tobi could've of stepped into the picture much later, during the time of kidnapping Naruto. 

We don't actually know exact time when he would've given the Rinnegan to Pain, we just know when he activated it.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 2, 2012)

Mantux31 said:


> He cant be elder som because elder son got different eyeshapes and hairstyle plus hes not a good reason for Kishi to keep that mask on, or Kishi will ruin his whole rep.



That's not a reason. Elder Son theory bases on Fushi Tensei, what means he uses other people's bodies, so ofc. he has different eyeshapes and hairstyle.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Jun 2, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Tobi could've of stepped into the picture much later, during the time of kidnapping Naruto.



He really couldn't have. We know that Madara knows Tobi, and at one point they were both working together for the same plan. We also know that Madara was revived with his eyes.

You know what this means? It means that Madara died before his eyes were given to Nagato. (I've already provided evidence as to why Kabuto editing Madara's edo summon has nothing to do with his eyes in an earlier post)

This means that Tobi is the only possible person who could have given the eyes to him, posing as Madara himself. 

Now, this confirms a few things. Tobi has been in the picture for quite some time, and it almost certainly confirms that Obito is not behind the mask (however there is that very small shred of doubt I have)


Anyways...

I'm nearly certain that it's someone from before Nagato's time, but it can't be the younger son. If that were the case, Madara would be taking orders from him, not the other way around, and he would probably have a faint idea of the the names of the bijuu Naruto spoke of.

This narrows it down to Izuna, Kagami, or an artificial Madara replica. I'm about to rule out Izuna too, though. Madara said that all that was left of his little brother were his eyes and their ocular power in the viz translation, and in other fan translations, Madara says that Izuna specifically died. Of course, he could have revived Izuna with rinne tensei near the end of his life and lied to the kage, but given Madara's speech, that sounds unlikely.

We don't know much about Kagami at all, either. Kishi could flesh him out, or he could make Tobi's statements literal by making Tobi a clone that desperately wants to be it's own person, which would really differentiate his story from the rest of the villains in the series.

Either way, we just have to wait and see.


----------



## Talis (Jun 2, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> He really couldn't have. We know that Madara knows Tobi, and at one point they were both working together for the same plan. We also know that Madara was revived with his eyes.
> 
> You know what this means? It means that Madara died before his eyes were given to Nagato. (I've already provided evidence as to why Kabuto editing Madara's edo summon has nothing to do with his eyes in an earlier post)
> 
> ...


As soon as Madara goes to Itachi and they will recognize each other, that will reveal long haired masked man being Madara.
If thats the case then you can rise the Obito theory.


----------



## NW (Jun 2, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> He really couldn't have. We know that Madara knows Tobi, and at one point they were both working together for the same plan. We also know that Madara was revived with his eyes.
> 
> You know what this means? It means that Madara died before his eyes were given to Nagato. (I've already provided evidence as to why Kabuto editing Madara's edo summon has nothing to do with his eyes in an earlier post)
> 
> ...


If Madara planned to be ressurected with Rinne Tensei, then he would at first be revived without eyes, because Nagato would have his during the ressurection. So, if Madara at first thought Rinne Tensei was used on him, then why did he not react to still having his eyes upon ressurestion? This leads me to believe that Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan some _other_ way. As for what, i'm not sure. Although, it may be like loool3 suggested, which was that Madara gave Nagato Uchiha DNA.


----------



## Talis (Jun 2, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> If Madara planned to be ressurected with Rinne Tensei, then he would at first be revived without eyes, because Nagato would have his during the ressurection. So, if Madara at first thought Rinne Tensei was used on him, then why did he not react to still having his eyes upon ressurestion? This leads me to believe that Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan some _other_ way. As for what, i'm not sure. Although, it may be like loool3 suggested, which was that Madara gave Nagato Uchiha DNA.


wow, that pretty much hits the nail.
But Nagato never turned off his Rinnegan as well which is some kind of mindfq too.


----------



## NW (Jun 2, 2012)

loool3 said:


> wow, that pretty much hits the nail.
> But Nagato never turned off his Rinnegan as well which is some kind of mindfq too.


Well, Tobi and Itachi were able to keep their sharingan on ofr very long amounts of time, so it could be that Nagato just has enormous amounts of chakra that allow him to keep it on. As, for why he kept it on back in the past as a child, I'm not sure.......


----------



## son_michael (Jun 2, 2012)

Nagato is an uzumaki. His chakra capacity is over 9,000


----------



## Tharris (Jun 3, 2012)

Crazy thought.

Zetsu = Experimental Clone of Hashirama Senju.
He is indeed a henchman.
What if Madara created Zetsu, as Tobi said he had done...
but not only an experimental clone of Hashirama... but also one of Tobirama.

Zetsu = Wood Release Techniques.
Tobi = Space-Time Techniques.

Both working eagerly to complete the moon eye plan.
Now I don't nessesarily believe this. Just a thought bubble I managed to capture in my mind.

Something along the lines of the Senju clan was Madara's antagonist. So why not take all of your enemies power and use it for yourself.

What do you guys think?
Pro's cons, is it just plain stupid?


----------



## son_michael (Jun 3, 2012)

Tharris said:


> Crazy thought.
> 
> Zetsu = Experimental Clone of Hashirama Senju.
> He is indeed a henchman.
> ...



if he had gotten his hands on Tobirama then tobi wouldn't be confused about Edo tensei. like oro, he would have known all its secrets.


----------



## Mantux31 (Jun 3, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Manga > Anime



I used anime as a refference cause i wouldn't  be bothered to check the manga chapter


----------



## Escargon (Jun 3, 2012)

I love how Tobi says "other" Madara like hes the real one:0


----------



## jacamo (Jun 3, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> i would like to point out that the only plausible Tobi candidates I think are left are Izuna and Obito. I think Obito is more likely, although Izuna is somewhat plausible, too. Can't be Kagami cuz he's too random, and it can't be Elder Son, cuz Tobi doesn't know the Bijuu's names. So, that also eliminates Rikudo, younger Son, and Juubi.



it cant be Izuna because Madara said he was dead

it cant be Obito due to there being a motherload of plotholes

Kagami being irrelevant/random doesnt mean it cant happen, it has ZERO plotholes... even if you think it would be a bad choice or anti-climactic, the process of elimination alone tells us Kagami is the most likely option


*Spoiler*: __ 



the reveal will be anti-climactic regardless, too much hype






Menacing Eyes said:


> We know that Madara knows Tobi, and at one point they were both working together for the same plan. We also know that Madara was revived with his eyes.
> 
> You know what this means? It means that Madara died before his eyes were given to Nagato.



and thats what you call an Obito plothole 



Tharris said:


> Crazy thought.
> 
> Zetsu = Experimental Clone of Hashirama Senju.
> He is indeed a henchman.
> ...





wow an actual splicing theory that i would be ok with

isnt it refreshing to have your mind blown once in a while?


----------



## the hokage of lol (Jun 3, 2012)

... I've never thought that Tobi is Obito however recent chapters are making me think Kishi is just going to mess with our brains more.
Maybe Tobi is just Tobi and it doesn't matter who he is... Or maybe it's someone we would never suspect...?


----------



## NW (Jun 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> it cant be Izuna because Madara said he was dead
> 
> it cant be Obito due to there being a motherload of plotholes
> 
> ...


Alot of the plotholes for Obito you've listed can easily be explained by Kishi. The points you've given are invalid. The point is that Kagami has NO plot relevance and is too random. Do you know WHY Tobi has had this mask on all this time? It's because he's someone that readers will RECOGNIZE. If he's some random fodder like Kagami, what would have been the point? I just don't see Kishi building up all this suspense just for the big reveal of something that's been a mystery for so long, to be some random old-ass uchiha that barely ANYONE would recognize. Just because it has ZERO "plotholes" does NOT mean that it's GOING to happen. The reason it has ZERO "plotholes" is because we don't know shit about him. We don't know much about him probably because he was not MEANT to have a big role in the manga. You just assume that he did all of these things because you can; because there is no evidence to PROVE that he didn't. But you also have no evidence to prove that he did. When it comes down to it, this is a pretty weak theory. And you suport it just because it has zero "plotholes". Well, What if Tobi...... IS TORIFU AKIMICHI!!! HE WAS ON TOBIRAMA'S TEAM TOO!!!!! So, he got pissed cause he wasn't chosen as Hogake, so he killed Kagami and stole his sharingan eyes. And he formed the moon's eye plan with Madara. Then he did all those things that you assume Kagami did. Torifu was there during Tobi's attack, sure, but the Torifu you saw fighting with the others was really a zetsu clone made to distract them. The REAL Torifu was fighting minato. He was skinny because he used that butterfly weight loss thing to become skinny. And he stopped eating so much because he didn't want to become fat again and be recognized. See, that theory has NO plotholes whatsoever, yet we all know that it's too ridiculous to happen, right? Well, the reason that the Kagami theory seems too ridiculous to happen is because Kagami is just some barely mentioned character in a flashback. So, please, enough with the whole "Kagami has ZERO plotholes" argument.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 3, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Alot of the plotholes for Obito you've listed can easily be explained by Kishi. The points you've given are invalid. The point is that Kagami has NO plot relevance and is too random. Do you know WHY Tobi has had this mask on all this time? It's because he's someone that readers will RECOGNIZE. If he's some random fodder like Kagami, what would have been the point? I just don't see Kishi building up all this suspense just for the big reveal of something that's been a mystery for so long, to be some random old-ass uchiha that barely ANYONE would recognize. Just because it has ZERO "plotholes" does NOT mean that it's GOING to happen. The reason it has ZERO "plotholes" is because we don't know shit about him. We don't know much about him probably because he was not MEANT to have a big role in the manga. You just assume that he did all of these things because you can; because there is no evidence to PROVE that he didn't. But you also have no evidence to prove that he did. When it comes down to it, this is a pretty weak theory. And you suport it just because it has zero "plotholes". Well, What if Tobi...... IS TORIFU AKIMICHI!!! HE WAS ON TOBIRAMA'S TEAM TOO!!!!! So, he got pissed cause he wasn't chosen as Hogake, so he killed Kagami and stole his sharingan eyes. And he formed the moon's eye plan with Madara. Then he did all those things that you assume Kagami did. Torifu was there during Tobi's attack, sure, but the Torifu you saw fighting with the others was really a zetsu clone made to distract them. The REAL Torifu was fighting minato. He was skinny because he used that butterfly weight loss thing to become skinny. And he stopped eating so much because he didn't want to become fat again and be recognized. See, that theory has NO plotholes whatsoever, yet we all know that it's too ridiculous to happen, right? Well, the reason that the Kagami theory seems too ridiculous to happen is because Kagami is just some barely mentioned character in a flashback. So, please, enough with the whole "Kagami has ZERO plotholes" argument.



Speaking of it. I didn't see Teuchi when Kyuubi attacked Konoha. After Minato sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto, he trained himself in Naruto's greatest weakness: Ramen no Jutsu
no plotholes for Teuchi O.o scary isn't it? 
Both, Teuchi and Tobi, start with "T" and end on "I" O.o what are the odds?!?!
We never got to know Teuchi's last name, maybe because he is an Uchiha that secretly helped Itachi wipe out the clan O.o Teuchi Uchiha, the final villain


----------



## NW (Jun 3, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Speaking of it. I didn't see Teuchi when Kyuubi attacked Konoha. After Minato sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto, he trained himself in Naruto's greatest weakness: Ramen no Jutsu
> no plotholes for Teuchi O.o scary isn't it?
> Both, Teuchi and Tobi, start with "T" and end on "I" O.o what are the odds?!?!
> We never got to know Teuchi's last name, maybe because he is an Uchiha that secretly helped Itachi wipe out the clan O.o Teuchi Uchiha, the final villain


Yeah, and Teuchi's eyes were always closed, probably hiding his sharingan o.0 And Teuchi's name means "killing someone with one's bare hands" and "making noodles by hand". This hints that even though Teuchi makes Naruto ramen, he secretly wants to extract Kurama which will kill Naruto. O.o


----------



## Talis (Jun 3, 2012)

Someone actually ever wondered why Orochimaru aready had another body when he was introduced?


----------



## NW (Jun 3, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Someone actually ever wondered why Orochimaru aready had another body when he was introduced?


What does that have to do with Tobi?


----------



## Talis (Jun 3, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> What does that have to do with Tobi?


Why not. 
Orochimaru seems to have a lot knowledge about Tobi.
Hell as soon as Madara and Itachi are going to recognize each other, that will mean that Orochimaru knew even about the real Madara which explains his horny feelings for the Uchiha.
It was obviously Orochimaru which succeeded merging Uchiha/Senju Dna inside Madara together.


----------



## NW (Jun 3, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Why not.
> Orochimaru seems to have a lot knowledge about Tobi.
> Hell as soon as Madara and Itachi are going to recognize each other, that will mean that Orochimaru knew even about the real Madara which explains his horny feelings for the Uchiha.
> It was obviously Orochimaru which succeeded merging Uchiha/Senju Dna inside Madara together.


Well, I guess there could be a connection there. But I don't really think that it's relevant to figuring out Tobi's identity.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 3, 2012)

thats the thing, the Obito plotholes cant be explained and people are in overwhelming agreement about it, with only a few exceptions... i wouldnt be going out on a limb if i thought those plotholes could be explained

his age alone is just ... Nagato is much older than Obito

and i dont think people can rule out Kagami JUST because he has had close to no panel time, he was introduced at a crucial time


----------



## Talis (Jun 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> thats the thing, the Obito plotholes cant be explained and people are in overwhelming agreement about it, with only a few exceptions... i wouldnt be going out on a limb if i thought those plotholes could be explained
> 
> his age alone is just ... Nagato is much older than Obito
> 
> and i dont think people can rule out Kagami JUST because he has had close to no panel time, he was introduced at a crucial time


Dude what your talking about, Kagami wasn't even introduced nor his name was even mentioned.
He was just there in 1-2 panels. 
No plotholes is even needed for this to rule it out since it doesn't even have a plot.


----------



## AVC (Jun 3, 2012)

Hey let me post something I just found:


And now this:


> Tengu are worshipped as beneficial kami (gods or revered spirits) in various Japanese religious cults. For example, the tengu Saburō of Izuna is worshipped on that mountain and various others as Izuna Gongen (飯綱権現, *incarnation of Izuna*?), one of the primary deities in the Izuna Shugen cult, which also has ties to fox sorcery and the Dakini of Tantric Buddhism. *Izuna Gongen is depicted as a beaked, winged figure with snakes wrapped around his limbs, surrounded by a halo of flame, riding on the back of a fox and brandishing a sword*. Worshippers of tengu on other sacred mountains have adopted similar images for their deities, such as Sanjakubō (三尺坊?) or Akiba Gongen (秋葉権現?) of Akiba and Dōryō Gongen (道了権現?) of Saijō-ji Temple in Odawara.[27]



Its obvious now, Tobi is Izuna.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 3, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Dude what your talking about, Kagami wasn't even introduced nor his name was even mentioned.
> He was just there in 1-2 panels.
> No plotholes is even needed for this to rule it out since it doesn't even have a plot.



again, that doesnt mean Tobi cant be Kagami



TobiUchiha111 said:


> How do *YOU* know? Are you Kishi? If so, then, Hey there, Masashi! You're my favorite mangaka! Nice to meet ya! If you're not, then stop acting like you're writing this manga!



i know because the plotholes are obvious... Obito's age just doesnt fit, he is younger than Nagato, but Tobi had to be older to give him the Rinnegan

i dont even need to mention the other plotholes


----------



## NW (Jun 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i know because the plotholes are obvious... Obito's age just doesnt fit, he is younger than Nagato, but Tobi had to be older to give him the Rinnegan
> 
> i dont even need to mention the other plotholes


How does his age not fit? It fits fine if you ask me. Besides, it was probably Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan. Also, none of those supposed "plotholes" you listed are even valid except for number 3. And even THAT can be easily debated.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 3, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> How does his age not fit? It fits fine if you ask me.



 because Obito is younger than Nagato



> Besides, it was probably Madara who gave Nagato the Rinnegan. Also, none of those supposed "plotholes" you listed are even valid except for number 3. And even THAT can be easily debated.



technically, only 1 plothole is needed to disprove a theory

and no, theyre all valid


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 3, 2012)

AVC said:


> Hey let me post something I just found:
> 
> 
> And now this:
> ...



Still don't get what makes it obvious, the snake thing more sounds like Kabuto/Orochimaru.
Izuna is still a valid option.


----------



## Khazzar (Jun 3, 2012)

People still argue that Tobi is anyone other the Izuna?


----------



## jacamo (Jun 3, 2012)

Khazzar said:


> People still argue that Tobi is anyone other the Izuna?



i know it was obvious right? but then Madara said he was dead.... dont you think it would be a cheap gimmick to have Izuna be Tobi now?


----------



## Tharris (Jun 3, 2012)

That makes sense, but as a counter argument, does Zetsu know all of Hashirama's jutsu's?
Maybe that's why Tobi was so interested in the Edo Tensie Jutsu cause he knows he can do it, but he just doesn't know how.


----------



## Khazzar (Jun 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i know it was obvious right? but then Madara said he was dead.... dont you think it would be a cheap gimmick to have Izuna be Tobi now?



Hmm Madara said my brother died to give me his eyes. He could have revived him somehow later,or he simply lied. Uchiha's lie,it's their trademark


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i know it was obvious right? but then Madara said he was dead.... dont you think it would be a cheap gimmick to have Izuna be Tobi now?



He says "everything that's left of Izuna are his eyes."
On the other hand Tobi says "I am nobody" 
So if he is Izuna, both of them agree that he is nobody. That would actually fit.
But it's just one possibility that doesn't rule out the other theories.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 3, 2012)

Khazzar said:


> Hmm Madara said my brother died to give me his eyes. He could have revived him somehow later,or he simply lied. Uchiha's lie,it's their trademark



its definitely not outside the realms of possibility... Kishi could come up with so many ways to make Izuna be Tobi, it was just 1 line after all

but i just cant get round the fact that Kishi had a character say Izuna died, not just any character, he had Uchiha Madara say it 

kind of a cheap gimmick, oh well


----------



## Talis (Jun 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> again, that doesnt mean Tobi cant be Kagami
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You gonna accept the Obito theory as soon as Madara and Itachi are going to reveal the misteries of the past.
Or no you will try to find some other point to get around it but you will be too late by then since Tobi is going to be revealed after the misteries of the past like the masacre. 
It's just obvious that the long haired masked man was Madara himself especially at a moment like this.

Who holds the secrets of the past?
1: Itachi
2: Long haired masked guy (some asume it to be Tobi but it's the real Madara)

Now think, it's obvious these misteries are going to be revealed 100% for sure.
At a point like this do you expect edo Madara going to Itachi or Tobi?
LoL.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm still going to say that Tobi is Izuna. After all, he said that Nagato's Rinnegan was his to begin with _to Kabuto_ (who knows about Madara; making deception pointless), and given that Madara's eyes were originally Izuna's, it fits. Furthermore, Tobi displayed some sort of visible emotion when he told the story of Madara and Izuna. Tobi and Madara appear to be relatively co-equal partners, after a fashion, making that someone far Madara's junior or senior unlikely.

And Izuna is truly a nobody in history, whose name is only recalled through those who have inside knowledge, and who was always overshadowed by Madara even before his eyes were stolen. It could explain how Tobi has such detailed knowledge of Izuna's story (and Itachi probably got that part of the story from Tobi when he was trying to convince Itachi that he was Madara), and why despite being such a master of dojutsu lacks any Mangekyo powers of his own (heck, having experienced the trauma of losing his eyes once, Tobi's stockpiling of eyes would be oh so fitting). 

As for _how_ Izuna is alive despite the fact he was said to be dead, well it could be a lie that he died just as it was a lie that Madara died against Hasharima. Or it could be that Madara, after acquiring the powers of the Rikudo, used Gedo: Rinne Tensei to resurrect Izuna. Perhaps he, who might not have suffered from the same limits Nagato did in this regard, as a Rikudo with the chakra of not merely any Senju/Uzumaki but the ultimate Senju (Hasharima) and the greatest power of the Uchiha, resurrected him many yeas later even. 

Who knows, maybe Madara, who for some reason was nearing the end of his rope, retrieved the abandoned body of an Uchiha with significant potential but no actual notoriety (Obito, as it were) and used some of Hasharima's DNA to reconstruct his body (and regenerate the eye from whatever mush was left) and then brought Izuna's soul into it in order to help carry out his plans in his absence.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 3, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> He says "everything that's left of Izuna are his eyes."
> On the other hand Tobi says "I am nobody"
> So if he is Izuna, both of them agree that he is nobody. That would actually fit.
> But it's just one possibility that doesn't rule out the other theories.



yes Izuna is a nobody, his name is not even canon (databook only)

fair point but i still point to Madara saying his brother died



loool3 said:


> You gonna accept the Obito theory as soon as Madara and Itachi are going to reveal the misteries of the past.
> Or no you will try to find some other point to get around it but you will be too late by then since Tobi is going to be revealed after the misteries of the past like the masacre.
> It's just obvious that the long haired masked man was Madara himself especially at a moment like this.



that is never going to happen


----------



## Talis (Jun 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> yes Izuna is a nobody, his name is not even canon (databook only)
> 
> fair point but i still point to Madara saying his brother died
> 
> ...


Will happen within a month, unless scene changes suddenly.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jun 3, 2012)

A month is probably too optimistic.

2-3 is a better estimate IMO.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 3, 2012)

People still come up with theories based on Tobis face?

ITS MADARAS FACE! Its so obvious.

Kishimoto showed Tobis face and made him tell a story about Madara. You can clearly see that the flashbacks of Madara and Tobis face are the same, cause Kishimoto wanted us to belivie Tobi is Madara.
I dont think Kishimoto is that retarded to make an old Uchiha similar to Madara and then go "SYKE HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA HES KAGAMI THEY LOOK SIMILAR HAHAHAHAHAH YOU FELL FOR IT HAHAHAHAHAH!"

Atleast i hope hes not doing that cause that would really REALLY make me angry.

If hes an old Uchiha, then Kishimoto must really suck creating characters and its already way too easy to guess how he looks like.

We havent seen the right side of the face clearly. Lets hope its modified somehow to make us mindfked.

And then people will come and say "but Madaras dead" like usual.

B-but, how can Kakashi have Obitos eye? Obitos dead. QQ


----------



## Talis (Jun 3, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> A month is probably too optimistic.
> 
> 2-3 is a better estimate IMO.


Considering Kishi is planning on too reveal Tobito in this Kakashis year for real, Kishi must hurry or Kakashis year will get delayed again lol.
The only thing he can do now is keep releasing Edo Madara and Itachi chapters with 5~ chapters of flashbacks+5 of some random misteries.
After every single secret is done then Kishi is pretty much ready to start the Kakashis year finally and reveal Tobis identity.



Escargon said:


> People still come up with theories based on Tobis face?
> 
> ITS MADARAS FACE! Its so obvious.
> 
> ...


I just noticed something pretty insteresting thing like i posted it before.
Considering the long haired guy which controled Yagura being the real Madara (which will be confirmed very soon) Kisames statement was pretty fishy.
When he saw Tobi's face he said, ''so your him, Mizukage-sama, or rather Madara san''.
Now look who was the Mizukage?
Yagura.
Who controled him? Madara.
So basically Tobi was also under controle of Madara which was next to him, when Madara came out of the shadow Tobi also came out of the shadow, of course Kishi couldn't reveal this yet or else it would have been obvious like hell that Madara wasn't Tobi and that they were different persons from the beginning.
Thats why Kisame said ''Mizukage, or should i say Madara'', he was just reffering to Yagura which was also under controle.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 3, 2012)

Escargon said:


> People still come up with theories based on Tobis face?
> 
> ITS MADARAS FACE! Its so obvious.
> 
> ...



So you think he is Madara?


----------



## son_michael (Jun 3, 2012)

Escargon said:


> People still come up with theories based on Tobis face?
> 
> ITS MADARAS FACE! Its so obvious.
> 
> ...




the part of tobi's face we saw looked nothing like Madara's. There's no reason to believe tobi is Madara other than he possesses knowledge


----------



## Talis (Jun 3, 2012)

son_michael said:


> the part of tobi's face we saw looked nothing like Madara's. There's no reason to believe tobi is Madara other than he possesses knowledge


Indeed, it's just stupid to say that his face looks like Madara just because he as 1 wrinkle which looks a like of that Madara's.
While Tobi has even more wrinkles.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 3, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I just noticed something pretty insteresting thing like i posted it before.
> Considering the long haired guy which controled Yagura being the real Madara (which will be confirmed very soon) Kisames statement was pretty fishy.
> When he saw Tobi's face he said, ''so your him, Mizukage-sama, or rather Madara san''.
> Now look who was the Mizukage?
> ...



The problem is:

Didnt Madara die when Nagato was a baby? Madara activates Rinnegan, dies a little bit after, Tobi takes Rinnegan and implants them to kid Nagato. 



Crystaltiger said:


> So you think he is Madara?



Nah i think hes an IMPLANT.



son_michael said:


> the part of tobi's face we saw looked nothing like Madara's. There's no reason to believe tobi is Madara other than he possesses knowledge



Is it just coincidence that Kishi drawed Tobi like this?



Lets take something similar:


----------



## Talis (Jun 3, 2012)

Escargon said:


> [sp]The problem is:
> 
> Didnt Madara die when Nagato was a baby? Madara activates Rinnegan, dies a little bit after, Tobi takes Rinnegan and implants them to kid Nagato.
> 
> ...


[sp=Tag yo' shit][/sp]

This is the real Madara, his eyes even resembles to your edo Madaras eye.


----------



## Tharris (Jun 3, 2012)

*I think Madara was the long haired Masked man,
but the real question is who the hell is this short haired Masked Man we know as Tobi?!*


----------



## Undead (Jun 3, 2012)

Tobi is nobody. He confirmed it. /Thread


----------



## Tharris (Jun 3, 2012)

Sarutobi Asuma said:


> Tobi is nobody. He confirmed it. /Thread



To be fair though, him telling us he was nobody just makes us want to know more.

That's just like saying

*"Eyy don't worry 'bout it kapeesh?"*
Of course in my mind Tobi is an Italian gangster.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 4, 2012)

Honestly dudes, i think Tobi is just a white Zetsu.

He devours bodies to steal their mind and identities, thats why hes made of the same material as Zetsu and is Zetsus cool bro. AND that explains why the soul still goes to the other side.

He says hes no-one cause he can steal anyones identity. So, if he kills Naruto, then he can devour his body and make up a new plan.


The edo Madara theory is good too, but how come edo Madara didnt recognize edo tensei the second time he got ressed?


----------



## †obitobi (Jun 4, 2012)

jacamo said:


> because Obito is younger than Nagato



Unless he was speaking as Uchiha Madara, which makes sense since, there, he says that he is Uchiha Madara.

Now, if you will document that Tobi's current eyes are actually what was spoken of by Madara to the kage's, in reference to the eyes that Madara was resurrected with from ET, then you will have indicated a plot-hole, in my opinion.


----------



## Khazzar (Jun 4, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Honestly dudes, i think Tobi is just a white Zetsu.
> 
> He devours bodies to steal their mind and identities, thats why hes made of the same material as Zetsu and is Zetsus cool bro. AND that explains why the soul still goes to the other side.
> 
> ...



Wrong,Zetsu has no blood,Tobi does. Some of his body parts are Zetsu goo replacements,which indicates he had injuries in the past.

Tobi is old (preety obvious),has no drawbacks in Sharingan use (Uchiha),supports Madara's ideals. He can be no other then Uchiha Izuna.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 4, 2012)

*Tobi's Identity*
_Plot holes_​

_I will base my plot holes around four main aspects - Age, Time gap, motive and background. Please bare with me, I have tried to prioritize theories which are most feasible due to lack of plot holes. However do note that the writer can easily explain even a theory which is buried under plot holes through explanation, and this is only due to speculation from what we've seen in the Manga itself. I've highlighted my assumption based theories for each character, so that we do not confuse assumption from fact. I will happily stand corrected if there can be evidence provided to eliminate any plot hole(s). _


*Obito*

- Age, he claims he has waited a _long_ time for "this" (Taking the Kyuubi), yet if this was the consciously Obito himself, this would be impossible as he was not even born when Kushina became the jinjuriki. This leads us to believe that Obito could just be a vessel or a part implantation, such as to the left side of Tobi's face (Which has been seen hidden, and a side-angle shown without wrinkles). It leads me to believe that Obito's body parts may be implanted to Tobi, seeing as we see Tobi's right side of the face full of wrinkled/damaged skin, as well as bolts on his right arm during the fight with Konan. Thus this still solves the problem of Kakashi's year.

- Time gap, though this can be overcome, typically speaking for elimination sakes, Madara couldn't of met Obito, as he says he awoken Rinnegan and died _shortly_ after, and we see that Nagato awoken his Rinnegan (Presumably given to him by Madara as implied) at around the age 7-9. During this age of Nagato, Obito would not even be alive, seeing as Nagato was the age of Minato who was the Sensei of Obito Uchiha, or even slightly older.

- Motive, what caused a concious Obito to turn into a villain? Influence alone doesn't suffice, if there is no hatred to feed onto. Perhaps Rin? However we don't have enough evidence to suggest his motive, as we saw him willingly sacrifice himself. Thus do not make _assumptions_.

- Background, as of yet, we actually have never got to known the parents of Obito. Some people claim it could even be Kagami and perhaps there was a motive link here, however evidence could suggest this is _false_. If we compare someone who would be the same age as Kagami, it would be Hiruzen Sarutobi, Sandaime Hokage. Hiruzen was aged even when Minato was the Yondaime Hokage, during which Kakashi was in his teens, which suggests that Hiruzen would of been older than one generation from Kakashi and Obito, and so would Kagami, as their age was similar. Thus making it next to impossible that Kagami was the father of Obito, and his death caused his motive. However as a grandfather it may be feasible, however that is still assumption.

Summary on positive points
Kakashi's MS technique of Kamui seems quite similar to Tobi's S/T jutsu, however in reverse. Whereas Tobi's S/T jutsu seems to be a defence technique, such as to escape, Kakashi's seems an offence technique, which blows off limbs from enemies and sends them into different dimensions. Perhaps Kakashi wasn't able to master the Sharingan enough? To be able to use his Kamui in properly, which may of been exactly alike to Tobi's S/T jutsu. Thus is only able to sustain the suction very temporarily, which causes limbs to rip from anyone in range of Kamui, rather than teleport them whole to another dimension. However this does not necessarily explain to us that Tobi is Obito, seeing as we have seen use of vessels before, and Obito may merely be a tool. Perhaps he won't be the concious Obito, but an implant to Tobi and barely alive, which Kakashi tries to get through to, with his "Comrades speech". Also Zetsu may of been created for this very reason, to repair Obito's body as a vessel or even a concious Obito. If he is the Obito we know in body and soul, perhaps Zetsu was used to record information and implanted to Obito's body, thus creating Tobi who has knowledge of older times, however this would make his entire character artificial, it could be arguable that this is anti-climactic however at this point what wouldn't be? This has been dragged on for a long time.


*Kagami*

- Motive, we cannot speculate on Kagami seeing as there is not evidence of why he would be the man behind the mask. His age may match the era of which this new identity was taken up, however we can only make assumptions that it is Kagami, thus making it an invalid theory evidence-wise, due to lack of evidence from the Manga _itself_. 

Summary on positive points
We know Kagami was the one who suggested a distraction during the invasion by Cloud ninja, for which Tobirama volunteered to sacrifice himself. Everything other than that is based on assumption, however we can assume he either stole his Sensei's jutsu, or even kept Tobirama's body for research and later took it to Orochimaru for a deal - To help him research the jutsu of Tobirama in exchange for Tobirama's body, which Orochimaru later used for Edo Tensei. Similar for the real Madara, which may of taken Hashirama's body to Orochimaru for a deal - To help him implant Hashirama's DNA in exchange for Hashirama's body itself, for Edo Tensei, in which by doing so got Orochimaru interested in the Uchiha clan, thus Sasuke was his choice for a new vessel, and he also started studying Akatsuki. Lastly, there is no confirmation of Kagami's death, only assumption, however this theory is solely based on assumption itself, due to lack of panel time for the character. It could still be pulled off and explained after the revelation, however that is not the point of a masked character. There must be evidence, even if it means a shred of it, for guess work. Any writer knows this. However the theory is still based on the foundations of assumption.


*Izuna*

Background - We have been told Izuna has died as confirmed by Madara himself. Even we claim he says he is nobody because Madara has said all that was left was his eyes, it still does not make the theory feasible if clear confirmation has been given by his own brother. 

Motive - Tobi has stated that Izuna's eyes were given to Madara willingly. Madara himself implies as if Izuna made a sacrifice, when saying "All that is left of him is his eyes".

Summary on positive points
We know that there were two stories of how Izuna's eyes were taken. Forcefully or willingly. However we could assume Tobi was lying due to his character being a lie for a period of time even, by imposing as Madara Uchiha. This could give Izuna motive to play along with Madara knowing he is more powerful until Tobi gains enough power to betray Madara. Also we can assume that Izuna fought Tobirama as Madara fought Hashirama, younger brother of Senju fighting the younger brother of Uchiha, this could make it feasible that Izuna was as interested in Tobirama as Madara was with Hashirama, thus he studied his S/T jutsu perhaps even with the help of Orochimaru and is now able to perform it. His eyes may of came from Obito (Right eye) and another eye from Danzo, as we only see his left eye during the fight with Konan, which was after Nagato died, and Danzo had died before, and we know Tobi collected his corpse.


*Rikudou Sennin's Elder son*

- Time gap, it is not explainable how he had met Madara and is still alive till this day.

- Age, considering his age, how does he still move with such agility.

- Motive, would he really live this long to take his revenge. Why in this era? Why not years and years before?


Summary on positive points
I have to say that people bash this theory to bits, however there is minimal plot holes against it. Why? As we know his motive of why he would do this, however the only doubt is why now? Even so, having a clear motive, and being Rikudou's son, it could be a possibility. We also know Fushi Tensei could've been used for long life from switching vessels, also this way he may of been in wait for the right moment to strike, and he came across Madara Uchiha, a talented Shinobi which was use to his motives, which could be an _assumed_ possibility. This being an assumption next, but still a consideration; The Elder Son may of found Uchiha Madara as a vessel for the Juubi, seeing as he himself even with Fushi Tensei would be too fragile to become the Sage with his own body. Thus Tobi was not pleased when he found out Kabuto had awoken Uchiha Madara. Perhaps Tobi, or the Elder Son in this face influenced and manipulated Madara Uchiha. However we still must consider that the Elder Son has not enough panel time either, and is closely after Kagami based on lack of evidence.


These are my thoughts, from what I've gathered. Please feel free to point out any flaws I may have within my plot holes, or even add plot holes, however be clear to highlight assumptions from evidence from the Manga itself. Considering the plot holes, I would consider between Izuna and the Elder Son for the most likely candidates due to lack of plot holes, however we must consider that there is mostly assumption for the Elder Son as well, and his theory is mainly structures by motive. 
Izuna could be feasible however he has been confirmed dead which could be a white lie. To be honest, after writing all these plot holes, I do think they shouldn't be taken seriously as we have seen Kishimoto pull stories and evidence out of thin air, and it can easily happen this time. It could be someone we least suspected. Remember there is always a possibility within story writing, all it takes is explanation.

Note that I don't care who it is at this point, or favour a theory, thus don't react with hostility. I've based plot holes from what I know.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 4, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> *Rikudou Sennin's Elder son*
> 
> - Time gap, it is not explainable how he had met Madara and is still alive till this day.
> 
> ...



All three "gaps" can easily be explained by the Fushi Tensei.
He is still alive because he used other peoples bodies to live on, just as Orochimaru did. He met Madara this way. His age is negligible. He takes young bodies, so he has also the "young moves", just his mind is old, that's the reason for gap 3. He wants to take his revenge that bad, that he didn't gave up yet. The reason for him to act now, is that he wasn't able to act earlier, because he was weakend from his fight with Hashirama.



> Summary on positive points
> I have to say that people bash this theory to bits, however there is minimal plot holes against it. Why? As we know his motive of why he would do this, however the only doubt is why now? Even so, having a clear motive, and being Rikudou's son, it could be a possibility. This being an assumption next, but still a consideration; The Elder Son may of found Uchiha Madara as a vessel for the Juubi, seeing as he himself even with Fushi Tensei would be too fragile to become the Sage with his own body. Thus Tobi was not pleased when he found out Kabuto had awoken Uchiha Madara. Perhaps Tobi, or the Elder Son in this face influenced and manipulated Madara Uchiha. However we still must consider that the Elder Son has not enough panel time either, and is closely after Kagami based on lack of evidence.



I agree, the only thing speaking against the Elder Son is his paneltime. Though we know more about him as we know about Kagami. We know his motive, his strenghts, his offspring. We know the Uchiha and their mind, we can assume that the Elder Son's ideals are the same as the Uchihas. In my opinion Elder Son is, maybe together with Izuna, the most plausible theory.




> These are my thoughts, from what I've gathered. Please feel free to point out any flaws I may have within my plot holes, or even add plot holes, however be clear to highlight assumptions from evidence from the Manga itself. Considering the plot holes, I would consider between Izuna and the Elder Son for the most likely candidates due to lack of plot holes, however we must consider that there is mostly assumption for the Elder Son as well, and his theory is mainly structures by motive.
> Izuna could be feasible however he has been confirmed dead which could be a white lie. To be honest, after writing all these plot holes, I do think they shouldn't be taken seriously as we have seen Kishimoto pull stories and evidence out of thin air, and it can easily happen this time. It could be someone we least suspected. Remember there is always a possibility within story writing, all it takes is explanation.
> 
> Note that I don't care who it is at this point, or favour a theory, thus don't react with hostility. I've based plot holes from what I know.



Totally agree, +rep, nice summary. (I focused on your plotholes to the Elder Son, because I agree to the other charakter's plotholes. Elder Son's plotholes can be refuted most easily.)


----------



## Shaz (Jun 4, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> All three "gaps" can easily be explained by the Fushi Tensei.
> He is still alive because he used other peoples bodies to live on, just as Orochimaru did. He met Madara this way. His age is negligible. He takes young bodies, so he has also the "young moves", just his mind is old, that's the reason for gap 3. He wants to take his revenge that bad, that he didn't gave up yet. The reason for him to act now, is that he wasn't able to act earlier, because he was weakend from his fight with Hashirama.




Ah, I knew I was missing something. I was thinking about FT during the time, but it then slipped my mind. 

Anyway, fair point, however as of what you've pointed out, due to lack of panel time which could've lead to clues, we can only assume at this point that he used this. However, if it is him, then I doubt there are many other options.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 4, 2012)

Khazzar said:


> Wrong,Zetsu has no blood,Tobi does. Some of his body parts are Zetsu goo replacements,which indicates he had injuries in the past.
> 
> Tobi is old (preety obvious),has no drawbacks in Sharingan use (Uchiha),supports Madara's ideals. He can be no other then Uchiha Izuna.



Zetsu devourcloning a corpse got blood?

I think his whole body is modified, he could take a headbutt without breaking the neck, he could take a blow from the kage without breaking his back, he could take a swordclash with his arm without breaking it, he could use chakra chains while going invisible etc.

Listen, my theory is: If a perfect Zetsu devours a body, he gets the bodys mind and identity, but the soul is a new one.

Izuna is dead plus Tobis lines around his eyes is only similar to one Uchiha, and thats Madara. Why would Izuna have to modify his whole body with Zetsu goop? That thing belongs to cloning and that only.

Kagami cant be him cause its a one page character and he sucks.

Elder Son looks nothing like Tobi and i dont care about him either.

Obito is way too young.

Tobi is a clone. Take it or not, i honestly think there will be some an arc named Two Madaras.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 4, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Izuna is dead plus Tobis lines around his eyes is only similar to one Uchiha, and thats Madara. Why would Izuna have to modify his whole body with Zetsu goop? That thing belongs to cloning and that only.



Stop taking these eye lines as a hint or proof. It's just an old eye under a mask. Tobi being Madara or a clone would be absolutely ridicolous.



> Kagami cant be him cause its a one page character and he sucks.



Sucking is not really a valid reason.



> Elder Son looks nothing like Tobi and i dont care about him either.



Again: look means nothing. 2nd: He uses other people's bodies to survive, so he looks of course like him-.- I don't know why I have to write this every 3 hours. That you don't care about him is sad, but absolutely irelevant.



> Obito is way too young.



True story. Possibility: his body was used.



> Tobi is a clone. Take it or not, i honestly think there will be some an arc named Two Madaras.



Ok why does he wear a mask then?
What's the emotional problem, if the mask is lifted?
We have 26 Madaras at the moment, why do you want to see another one?
Madaras time is now, while he fights the kages, after that his character is sought out, nobody wants to see him again, otherwise his role is waaaaaaay too central and gets f*cking boring, really. 
Why do people wanna see Tobi being Madara or a clone? That's soo boring. He will lift his mask and "WOOOOW MADARA AHHH I LOVE MADARA I HAVE SEEN 26 MADARA CLONES BUT CANNOT GET ENOUGHT OF HIM"??
Really his time has come, and will go after he fought the kages.


----------



## Talis (Jun 4, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Stop taking these eye lines as a hint or proof. It's just an old eye under a mask. Tobi being Madara or a clone would be absolutely ridicolous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He will go to Itachi to confirm that he indeed was the long haired masked man and that will raise the Obito theory even incredibly more. 
Hope it finally happens next chapter because i am getting bored of waiting for it lol. 
And for these who believes Edo Madara will just vanish it can't happen until the Uchiha masacre gets revealed which means Edo can't end yet until Itachi himself tells the story or Madara busts in somehow there and Sasuke will be like; who the fq is that.
And then Itachi will start talk about everything.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 4, 2012)

We'll see when we do, however I believe we may need to wait until 600.


----------



## NW (Jun 4, 2012)

loool3 said:


> He will go to Itachi to confirm that he indeed was the long haired masked man and that will raise the Obito theory even incredibly more.
> Hope it finally happens next chapter because i am getting bored of waiting for it lol.
> And for these who believes Edo Madara will just vanish it can't happen until the Uchiha masacre gets revealed which means Edo can't end yet until Itachi himself tells the story or Madara busts in somehow there and Sasuke will be like; who the fq is that.
> And then Itachi will start talk about everything.


I like the idea of the long haired masked man being madara, and not Tobi, but if Itachi set the amaterasu to go off at the sight of hsi sharingan, wouldn't it only react to the same sharingan of the man that was with Itachi in the massacre?


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Jun 4, 2012)

The elder son couldn't have used fushi tensei on anyone. Orochimaru is the one who developed it.

[ 1 ]

"I've been working on developing a jutsu"

Furthermore, the kinjutsu itself relies on orochimaru's own mental plain where he basically envelopes the victim.

Tobi does have a pocket dimension, but it's an actual dimension rather than an area within the jutsu itself that the caster forces the target to see.


Think about it. The time during the sage's life was so long ago that Kabuto wasn't able to gather DNA of him, and nearly all of mankind forgot he existed or regarded him as nothing more than a myth.  

The time skip between the Sage and his sons and Hashirama and Madara's battle is too huge for him to possibly live that long, especially since he'd have no fushi tensei or Hashirama cells until he met Madara and then Orochimaru many years later.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 4, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> The elder son couldn't have used fushi tensei on anyone. Orochimaru is the one who developed it.
> 
> [ 1 ]
> 
> "I've been working on developing a jutsu"



Yeah that's right, but ALL of Orochimarus Jutsu are based on other jutsus, so it's most likely based on a similar jutsu.



> Furthermore, the kinjutsu itself relies on orochimaru's own mental plain where he basically envelopes the victim.
> 
> Tobi does have a pocket dimension, but it's an actual dimension rather than an area within the jutsu itself that the caster forces the target to see.



I think it could work the same way.



> Think about it. The time during the sage's life was so long ago that Kabuto wasn't able to gather DNA of him, and nearly all of mankind forgot he existed or regarded him as nothing more than a myth.



So why does Tobi think it is real? Because he knows more than the rest of the world.



> The time skip between the Sage and his sons and Hashirama and Madara's battle is too huge for him to possibly live that long, especially since he'd have no fushi tensei or Hashirama cells until he met Madara and then Orochimaru many years later.



Still think he used a similar jutsu to Fushi Tensei, since, as I sad, all of Orochimaru's jutsus are based on other jutsus.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Jun 4, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Yeah that's right, but ALL of Orochimarus Jutsu are based on other jutsus, so it's most likely based on a similar jutsu.



There's not really any proof to support or refute this, but whatever.



Crystaltiger said:


> I think it could work the same way.



All it is is an inescapable pocket dimension with a bunch of rectangular platforms. How exactly would this dimension and Orochimaru's mental plain work similar? I'm curious. They really seem nothing alike, both in function and aesthetics.



Crystaltiger said:


> So why does Tobi think it is real? Because he knows more than the rest of the world.



He/or Madara was able to read more of the Uchiha tablet than the others with his/their eyes. That, and Madara obtaining the rinnegan because of said tablet lends to the credibility of the sage existing, no?



Crystaltiger said:


> Still think he used a similar jutsu to Fushi Tensei, since, as I sad, all of Orochimaru's jutsus are based on other jutsus.


See my first response.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 4, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> *I like the idea of the long haired masked man being madara, and not Tobi*, but if Itachi set the amaterasu to go off at the sight of hsi sharingan, wouldn't it only react to the same sharingan of the man that was with Itachi in the massacre?




I have changed my opinion about the masked man who met Itachi being Madara Uchiha. 

The reasons are as followed:
- The real Madara Uchiha says he _died shortly_ after he awoken Rinnegan.
- We see Nagato first at around age 8 with the Rinnegan, meaning during this time Itachi wouldn't of been born.
- The meeting with Itachi and this masked man claiming to be Madara Uchiha occurs around 4-7 years after (Keeping in mind that Itachi is younger than Nagato) when Itachi is around 13 years of age, and Nagato around late teens or early 20s. Madara would've died when Nagato was in his early teens at the very latest, as his Rinnegan was given to Nagato when he was around 8-10.

Also to add to it, I'd believe that Amaterasu trap would only work with the one who has the same Sharingan, thus Tobi triggered it, thus giving us more reason to believe it was infact Tobi, _not_ Madara Uchiha

Thus it makes it almost impossible for Madara to have been alive during that time to meet Itachi.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 4, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> There's not really any proof to support or refute this, but whatever.



That's right, but that is why it's only a theory: It has no proof. If we could proof that Fushi Tensei existed before, it would be pretty obvious that Tobi is the Elder Son, so even if the Elder Son knew this jutsu, it would be bad for Kishi to tell us, because we would know who Tobi is.



> All it is is an inescapable pocket dimension with a bunch of rectangular platforms. How exactly would this dimension and Orochimaru's mental plain work similar? I'm curious. They really seem nothing alike, both in function and aesthetics.



Isn't Orochimaru's mental plain a kind of "parallel dimension"? A mental dimension. So Tobi's dimension should be even stronger, since it is real. We don't know what Tobi can do with his dimension, nor do we know how exactly Oro's plain works.



> He/or Madara was able to read more of the Uchiha tablet than the others with his/their eyes. That, and Madara obtaining the rinnegan because of said tablet lends to the credibility of the sage existing, no?



That's right, but it doesn't rule out that Tobi is the Elder Son.


----------



## Mateush (Jun 4, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I have changed my opinion about the masked man who met Itachi being Madara Uchiha.
> 
> The reasons are as followed:
> - The real Madara Uchiha says he _died shortly_ after he awoken Rinnegan.
> ...



Nice analysis. I also doubt if that long haired guy really was Madara. Thank you, for your hard job to do all this. Very nice theory, indeed.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 4, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Nice analysis. I also doubt if that long haired guy really was Madara. Thank you, for your hard job to do all this. Very nice theory, indeed.



Haha it was nothing. Merely logic, however I could say that mostly everyone is mindfucked by this Tobi shit, thus even logic is out of the question.


----------



## NW (Jun 4, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I have changed my opinion about the masked man who met Itachi being Madara Uchiha.
> 
> The reasons are as followed:
> - The real Madara Uchiha says he _died shortly_ after he awoken Rinnegan.
> ...


We don't know exactly when Madara died. Besides, we don't exactly know _how_ Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan either. I've already given evidence that Nagato's eyes might not have been Madara's. Madara could have simply injected Uchiha DNA in him, or something else entirely. I don't see why he would give up his eyes when he could have given Nagato the Rinnegan some other way. Due to my post, I definitely think the long haired masked guy was Tobi now, or else the Amaterasu wouldn't have reacted to his sharingan.


----------



## Mateush (Jun 4, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> We don't know exactly when Madara died. Besides, we don't exactly know _how_ Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan either. I've already given evidence that Nagato's eyes might not have been Madara's. Madara could have simply injected Uchiha DNA in him, or something else entirely. I don't see why he would give up his eyes when he could have given Nagato the Rinnegan some other way. Due to my post, I definitely think the long haired masked guy was Tobi now, or else the Amaterasu wouldn't have reacted to his sharingan.



I also think Nagato simply was a "object", just becuase he was Uzumaki. Why Madara choosed one damn brat (uzumaki), while he loved both Uchiha and Senju? Therefore Uzumaki has relation to both Uchiha and Senju. Rikudou probably was ancient Uzumaki.


----------



## NW (Jun 4, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Rikudou probably was ancient Uzumaki.


It's possible, especially since I believe that Naruto is Rikudou's reincarnation. Either way, I'm pretty sure that Nagato's Rinnegan is not Madara's.


----------



## Mateush (Jun 4, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> It's possible, especially since I believe that *Naruto is Rikudou's reincarnation*. Either way, I'm pretty sure that Nagato's Rinnegan is not Madara's.



If Naruto really is Rikudou's reincarnation, so he should get the Rinnegan. I dunno how he can get that. Anyways, it doesn't matter because he gets all powers from all these bijuu created by Rikudou. So it should be enough.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 4, 2012)

The Bijuu are already taking a liking to him, and a sign of this is discovering their real names, so he's definitely headed in the right direction to be another RS.

Anyway back to Tobi, the troll


----------



## Mateush (Jun 4, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> The Bijuu are already taking a liking to him, and a sign of this is discovering their real names, so he's definitely headed in the right direction to be another RS.
> 
> Anyway back to Tobi, the troll



I think it was more about simple "trust and love". That was what Rikoudou talked about as "true power". Whatever...

About Tobi. I bet he is more or less Madara, if not so he's Izuna.


----------



## NW (Jun 5, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I think it was more about simple "trust and love". That was what Rikoudou talked about as "true power". Whatever...
> 
> About Tobi. I bet he is more or less Madara, if not so he's Izuna.


Tobi's not Madara. get over it. First of all, what kind of twist is that for him to still be Madara? And, if he actually LOOKED like Madara then there would be no need for the mask. That alone should be enough to disprove it. Tobi being Madara now is even more contrived than Tobi being Future Sasuke. Tobi still being Madara would be completely anti-climactic and ruin the whole purpose of the twist. Like I keep saying, if Kishi was going to make Tobi Madara, he would have just made him the full Madara and not introduced Edo Madara. So, no. Tobi's definitely not Madara.

He probably isn't Izuna either because Madara said that all that was left of his brother were his eyes.


----------



## Mateush (Jun 5, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Tobi's not Madara. get over it. First of all, what kind of twist is that for him to still be Madara? And, if he actually LOOKED like Madara then there would be no need for the mask. That alone should be enough to disprove it. Tobi being Madara now is even more contrived than Tobi being Future Sasuke. Tobi still being Madara would be completely anti-climactic and ruin the whole purpose of the twist. Like I keep saying, if Kishi was going to make Tobi Madara, he would have just made him the full Madara and not introduced Edo Madara. So, no. Tobi's definitely not Madara.
> 
> He probably isn't Izuna either because Madara said that all that was left of his brother were his eyes.



I dunno why he wears mask and how it would be dangerous for his enemies. But one thing is sure that his body is more or less frankenstein, so from there I strongly suspect that Madara somehow created Tobi to be so. Also all the way Tobi acted and talked, even in front of Kabuto pretty is enough to strongly suspect that he thinks he is Madara. Not that he merely lying.

Izuna is just alternative, because there can't be another such as Obito or whoever which could act the way Tobi does.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 5, 2012)

man this is depressing... but the more i think about the Madara clone theory, the more i think it might actually happen  



MissinqNin said:


> - Background, as of yet, we actually have never got to known the parents of Obito. Some people claim it could even be Kagami and perhaps there was a motive link here, however evidence could suggest this is _false_. If we compare someone who would be the same age as Kagami, it would be Hiruzen Sarutobi, Sandaime Hokage. Hiruzen was aged even when Minato was the Yondaime Hokage, during which Kakashi was in his teens, which suggests that Hiruzen would of been older than one generation from Kakashi and Obito, and so would Kagami, as their age was similar. Thus making it next to impossible that Kagami was the father of Obito, and his death caused his motive. However as a grandfather it may be feasible, however that is still assumption.



excellent post there... but you are wrong in saying its impossible for Kagami to be Obito's father, it actually fits perfectly

did you forget Asuma is Hiruzen's son? considering Hiruzen and Kagami were on the same team together we can conclude they were very similar in age

and from this panel we can conclude that Asuma, Kakashi, Gai and Kurenai are all very similar in age... hence Obito would be the same age as well


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> man this is depressing... but the more i think about the Madara clone theory, the more i think it might actually happen



That would be sad and disappointing, really, would be soooo uncreative.



> excellent post there... but you are wrong in saying its impossible for Kagami to be Obito's father, it actually fits perfectly
> 
> did you forget Asuma is Hiruzen's son? considering Hiruzen and Kagami were on the same team together we can conclude they were very similar in age
> 
> and from this panel we can conclude that Asuma, Kakashi, Gai and Kurenai are all very similar in age... hence Obito would be the same age as well



Good point. It would be possible but not inevitable.
Age fits, but still really little information about Kagami. 
For people who only read the Manga Tobi's mask lift would be like this:
Reader: "Who is that guy?"
Manga: "I am Kagami."
Reader: "Never heard of Kagami"
Manga: "I was in Tobirama's team"
Reader: "Ok, let's re-read the chapters...." "Oh there he is, in that panel we see his head".... "Oh there again"...... "Ah he has a Sharingan, he is an Uchiha"..... Never see him again, nor read his name or stuff.

People who don't make a mind about Tobi's identity, who don't read in forums or read bonusmaterial don't even know that Kagami exists. Therefore it would be really disappointing for them, if he was Tobi. 
I told a friend of mine, who reads the manga very detailed, but doesn't look in forums or other books to avoid spoils, that Tobi could be Kagami. He said "Who the fuck is Kagami?"


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jun 5, 2012)

The poll sucks. Why didn't you add more vote options?


----------



## Talis (Jun 5, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> That would be sad and disappointing, really, would be soooo uncreative.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The worst thing is the manga character itself.
Non of any characters will recognize Kagami.
Even if the mask breaks what do you expect if he's Kagami?
Everyone will see an old strange face and so do the manga characters, and when they say who are you he will keep barking being no one until scene switch to Madara to confirm his name lol.
Nope, only Obito or Shisui wins on this point, we're gonna have even a hard time recognizing these characters, perhaps Obito will be a little easier with his 50% crushed face.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 5, 2012)

Second Friend wore a mask even if he implanted first Friends face. And Kishi perhaps is doing the same, i mean their masks are way too similar.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 5, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Good point. It would be possible but not inevitable.
> Age fits, but still really little information about Kagami.
> For people who only read the Manga Tobi's mask lift would be like this:
> Reader: "Who is that guy?"
> ...



i certainly understand the reasons why people would hate for Tobi to be Kagami... however, i also feel that people just casually disregard the fact that nothing can definitively rule Kagami out as a Tobi candidate

my prediction that Kagami is Obito's father is how i think Kishi will work "Kakashi's year" into the story... i could be wrong but it would certainly explain why Kakashi's Kamui and Tobi's S/T jutsu are so similar


----------



## Escargon (Jun 5, 2012)

Tbh the only reason i hate Kagami is cause he got introduced years later.


----------



## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Tbh the only reason i hate Kagami is cause he got introduced years later.



it doesn't make any sense why a character like him would be tobi. when he got introduced doesn't matter, but he cant be irrelevant. tobi has to be someone we already know and have knowledge on, so that way when his face is revealed everyones goes OOOOOMMMGGGGGGGGGG NO WAY!! ARE U SERIOUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS???? AHHHHH MINDFUCK. something like that

 that's to say if kishi wants to do a good job, cuz he can fuck it up completely and make him kagami, which 95% of the naruto fan population dont know who the fuck he is


----------



## jacamo (Jun 5, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> it doesn't make any sense why a character like him would be tobi. when he got introduced doesn't matter, but he cant be irrelevant. tobi has to be someone we already know and have knowledge on, so that way



so? Nagato didnt exist as a character until Jiraiya's flashback 



> when his face is revealed everyones goes OOOOOMMMGGGGGGGGGG NO WAY!! ARE U SERIOUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS???? AHHHHH MINDFUCK. something like that



only Shisui and Newaki would make people freak out like that

you thought Tobi was Madara... and quite frankly if Tobi was revealed to be Madara it wouldnt have created that type of reaction anyway


----------



## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> so? Nagato didnt exist as a character until Jiraiya's flashback
> 
> 
> 
> ...



nagato isnt on the same ballpark as tobi. tobi's identity has been a question of.. how many chapters now??? every body is expecting something big after all this wait. its only natural it doesn't come off disappointing. nobody wants to see tobi take off his mask and go like "........oh ok......." and find out later who he is. no, hell no. that's anti climatic 

true, i did think he was madara. but i thought he's hiding something other than his identity


----------



## happiholic (Jun 5, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Heres some things you have to take note before making funny  theories:
> 
> 1. Kisame bit off his tongue to prevent Konoha from seeing Tobis face. It might mean, if Tobis face got showed, it would ruin the plan.
> So its a good chance that Tobis clone is working for Konoha. Think like Kishi, why would he do this? *Dont think way too advanced.*
> ...



Agree with this part of the post. Emphasis on the bold part. Some people come up with wild theories and clearly Ockham's razor was not considered when coming up with them.

Personally, I don't pretend to know who he is. I will know when Kishi wants us to know and that's good enough for me. I do like reading theories, just not the ones that try too hard.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 5, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> nagato isnt on the same ballpark as tobi. tobi's identity has been a question of.. how many chapters now???



i guess my point is, if Tobi is Kagami it would follow the same pattern



> every body is expecting something big after all this wait. its only natural it doesn't come off disappointing. nobody wants to see tobi take off his mask and go like "........oh ok......." and find out later who he is. no, hell no. that's anti climatic



thats a valid reason, but not a good enough reason

because at this point its going to be anti-climactic regardless



happiholic said:


> I do like reading theories, just not the ones that try too hard.



lol thats why i like Kagami.... fits the timeline, done

could easily work Obito into his motive if they were father and son


----------



## NW (Jun 5, 2012)

Well, I've found domething interesting. When Tobi is fighting Minato, we get quite a few good looks of his hands, yet they look very young. You'd think, if he were actually very old, then his hands would be so as well, right? I mean, Hiruzen and Danzo were around 70, and their hands were old looking, Kagami would have the same old looking hands. So I made a picture comparing them: 

As you can see, his hands look younger like Obito's. Which further suggests that he is someone young. Knowing that, i find it a little more likely for it to be Obito now. So, jacamo, if you're going to say that Tobi's height at that time is a plothole for Obito, then shouldn't the younger looking hands be counted as a plothole for Kagami?  Besides, there is no reason that obito couldn't have been that tall.


----------



## †obitobi (Jun 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i certainly understand the reasons why people would hate for Tobi to be Kagami... however, i also feel that people just casually disregard the fact that nothing can definitively rule Kagami out as a Tobi candidate


There's no more indicative for Kagami than there is for plenty of other Uchiha, in my opinion.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 5, 2012)

In all honesty, the biggest plothole would be that no one knows Kagami. He isn't significant. I also told my friend about Kagami, and he was clueless about who the man even was. This would be disappointing for quite a few fans of Tobi, who have no idea who Kagami is.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 5, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Well, I've found domething interesting. When Tobi is fighting Minato, we get quite a few good looks of his hands, yet they look very young. You'd think, if he were actually very old, then his hands would be so as well, right? I mean, Hiruzen and Danzo were around 70, and their hands were old looking, Kagami would have the same old looking hands. So I made a picture comparing them:



no, because they're Zetsu hands


----------



## Shaz (Jun 5, 2012)

jacamo said:


> no, because they're Zetsu hands




Agreed with this, we do see Tobi's hand kind of melting away, and revealing some sort of Zetsu goo.


----------



## Kingnaruto (Jun 5, 2012)

well i dont think he's an uchiha


----------



## Easley (Jun 6, 2012)

Kingnaruto said:


> well i dont think he's an uchiha


Neither do I. 

Kishi can be predictable but Tobi's identity demands a shocking reveal. The Uchiha would surprise no one. Why limit yourself to a handful of candidates? Does he want to surprise _us_, the readers, or the characters?

Who could Tobi be? No idea. And that's what I like.

I still expect an anti-climax though - Tobi removing his mask is a momentous and long-awaited event but cannot possibly live up to the hype. Serves Kishi right for milking it so long.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 6, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi's identity demands a shocking reveal.



no it doesnt


----------



## Easley (Jun 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> no it doesnt


After almost 6 years of waiting? Well, if I'm not at least surprised it's a miserable failure.

See my join date? That's when Tobi revealed himself to be Madara. It's amazing how long Kishi has delayed this.


----------



## Freechoice (Jun 6, 2012)

He is the Elder Son!

-

At least, I hope he is, would make a great FV.


----------



## Talis (Jun 6, 2012)

Last chapter pretty much confirmed Gai and Kakashi did actually get the Kyuubi's chakra.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 6, 2012)

freechoice33 said:


> He is the Elder Son!
> 
> -
> 
> At least, I hope he is, would make a great FV.



Sasuke is Final Villain


----------



## NW (Jun 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> no, because they're Zetsu hands


Sure, they are Zetsu hands, but there is no reason to assume that the zetsu goo implanted wouldn't naturally look like what it was replacing. If it was able to become an arm, I'm sure that it would retain any features that the arm had.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 7, 2012)

I doubt it is to do with resembling the hand it's replacing. As you see after Tobi fights Konan he re-attaches a new Zetsu arm, and it looks as good as new.


----------



## NW (Jun 7, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I doubt it is to do with resembling the hand it's replacing. As you see after Tobi fights Konan he re-attaches a new Zetsu arm, and it looks as good as new.


Yes, a new one is created that has no damage on it. My point is that the arm should resemble the actual physical features of what it's replacing. Not including damage, but just the basic features, including age. It wouldn't make sense for them to just be young if Tobi is actually old. If teh arm is going to alter appearance, then it might as well turn into a women's arm or a bear arm or something! (Okay, I got a little carried away there, but you get my point.)


----------



## momma bravo (Jun 8, 2012)

slowly more and more i'm starting to believe that he might be izuna... unfortunately it just seems like more dots connect towards him.


----------



## Talis (Jun 8, 2012)

Izuna died it's been clearly confirmed twice already.
And no he didn't got Rinne Tensei'd look how sad Madara looks when he says that his brother died.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 9, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Sure, they are Zetsu hands, but there is no reason to assume that the zetsu goo implanted wouldn't naturally look like what it was replacing. If it was able to become an arm, I'm sure that it would retain any features that the arm had.





TobiUchiha111 said:


> Yes, a new one is created that has no damage on it. My point is that the arm should resemble the actual physical features of what it's replacing. Not including damage, but just the basic features, including age. It wouldn't make sense for them to just be young if Tobi is actually old. If teh arm is going to alter appearance, then it might as well turn into a women's arm or a bear arm or something! (Okay, I got a little carried away there, but you get my point.)



you're wrong

Tobi's arm looks young because they're Zetsu arms, NOT because Tobi is someone young.... Tobi has to be older than Nagato for anything to make sense 

and it is NEVER said that Zetsu arms retain the physical features of what its replacing... you're just making stuff up to support the Obito theory when everyone knows that its never going to happen


----------



## NW (Jun 9, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you're wrong
> 
> Tobi's arm looks young because they're Zetsu arms, NOT because Tobi is someone young.... Tobi has to be older than Nagato for anything to make sense
> 
> and it is NEVER said that Zetsu arms retain the physical features of what its replacing... you're just making stuff up to support the Obito theory when everyone knows that its never going to happen


You're saying that I'm making stuff up when you're saying that his hands look young because they're Zetsu hands. When you have NO proof whatsoever of this. And, I'm pretty sure that Zetsu arms retain physical features, after all, the arms are the same skin color as him, are they not? 

I still can't believe how people think someone who appeared in two panels is Tobi. He only had ,like, one line ever! We know absolutely nothing about him. Except for a few coincidences, there isn't much proof of him being Tobi. And Tobi's name did not come from Tobirama. Tobi means "kite" which relates to Tengu myth, which Kishi heavily bases the Uchiha off of. (Also evident from chapter 589) For the people who say that Kagami wasn't there during the attack with Kurama, this is true, however, the WHOLE Uchiha clan was absent. So, it stands to reason that Kagami would be absent as well. Besides, Tobi sounds like someone who's gone through alot of pain. What "pain" could Kagami have gone through? Telling his backstory and everything about him after the reveal is unwise for storytelling purposes. To be honest, the whole Kagami theory is just based on slight coincidences. not even big ones, just minor ones.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 9, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> You're saying that I'm making stuff up when you're saying that his hands look young because they're Zetsu hands. When you have NO proof whatsoever of this. And, I'm pretty sure that Zetsu arms retain physical features, after all, the arms are the same skin color as him, are they not?
> 
> I still can't believe how people think someone who appeared in two panels is Tobi. He only had ,like, one line ever! We know absolutely nothing about him. Except for a few coincidences, there isn't much proof of him being Tobi. And Tobi's name did not come from Tobirama. Tobi means "kite" which relates to Tengu myth, which Kishi heavily bases the Uchiha off of. (Also evident from chapter 589) For the people who say that Kagami wasn't there during the attack with Kurama, this is true, however, the WHOLE Uchiha clan was absent. So, it stands to reason that Kagami would be absent as well. Besides, Tobi sounds like someone who's gone through alot of pain. What "pain" could Kagami have gone through? Telling his backstory and everything about him after the reveal is unwise for storytelling purposes. To be honest, the whole Kagami theory is just based on slight coincidences. not even big ones, just minor ones.




The theory about the Zetsu taking the impression of the original hand, is just a theory for now, there is no backing or evidence / reference to the reason that why it does seem young. It could be as said above, just because of the nature of Zetsu implants. A theory should remain a theory, and not turn into fact or anything other than a theory, until clear reference is made which can imply the theory is plausible.

About Kagami, if we really believe Kishimoto will still introduce someone as such as that under the mask, I think we're really trying to hit an invisible dartboard. As we all know he will try reveal his identity as someone we've already seen, and know enough about in terms of their loss in the Manga, then alternate their identity and personality slightly, such as alterations, implants which will create a twist which will be in store for us as an interesting surprise. 

This is just how Kishi is, and will always be, basing it from speculation on the rest of the revelations within the Manga.


----------



## Talis (Jun 9, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> The theory about the Zetsu taking the impression of the original hand, is just a theory for now, there is no backing or evidence / reference to the reason that why it does seem young. It could be as said above, just because of the nature of Zetsu implants. A theory should remain a theory, and not turn into fact or anything other than a theory, until clear reference is made which can imply the theory is plausible.
> 
> About Kagami, if we really believe Kishimoto will still introduce someone as such as that under the mask, I think we're really trying to hit an invisible dartboard. As we all know he will try reveal his identity as someone we've already seen, and know enough about in terms of their loss in the Manga, then alternate their identity and personality slightly, such as alterations, implants which will create a twist which will be in store for us as an interesting surprise.
> 
> This is just how Kishi is, and will always be, basing it from speculation on the rest of the revelations within the Manga.


If the Zetsu hand is actually in flesh form then it's clearly in Tobi's current form, which means he is young.
But we can't count on the anime, but it's safe to say that it is flesh form since his arm looked different when it started to leak as Zetsus.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 9, 2012)

loool3 said:


> If the Zetsu hand is actually in flesh form then it's clearly in Tobi's current form, which means he is young.
> But we can't count on the anime, but it's safe to say that it is flesh form since his arm looked different when it started to leak as Zetsus.



It is probably a mixture. However there is still no clear evidence of it being an impression of one which existed/exists, thus making it implausible for the current moment in time. Especially with the Manga which is used for hard evidence, we cannot base it simply on visual features.


----------



## Talis (Jun 9, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> It is probably a mixture. However there is still no clear evidence of it being an impression of one which existed/exists, thus making it implausible for the current moment in time. Especially with the Manga which is used for hard evidence, we cannot base it simply on visual features.


What are you talking about anyways?
Zetsu never had a flesh color, so you say it turns into Tobi's flesh colored arm but not his real state?
Makes no sense.
When Zetsu ''touched'' Kisame he transformed into Kisame body, every wrinkle+ color+details were the same so it means it's exactly for Tobi.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 9, 2012)

loool3 said:


> What are you talking about anyways?
> Zetsu never had a flesh color, so you say it turns into Tobi's flesh colored arm but not his real state?
> Makes no sense.
> When Zetsu ''touched'' Kisame he transformed into Kisame body, every wrinkle+ color+details were the same so it means it's exactly for Tobi.



Yes, however that was cloning Kisame, however Tobi's seems like a implant, not a clone. There's a difference. That is still not proof of actual Tobi having Zetsu implants which have similar impressions as his real hand/arm. Also like I said, it may be a mixture of Tobi's real arm and zetsu implants, thus giving it natural colour.

There is no proofing out of the good ol'asscrack here. We've not got enough information about his implant.


----------



## Talis (Jun 9, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Yes, however that was cloning Kisame, however Tobi's seems like a implant, not a clone. There's a difference. That is still not proof of actual Tobi having Zetsu implants which have similar impressions as his real hand/arm. Also like I said, it may be a mixture of Tobi's real arm and zetsu implants, thus giving it natural colour.
> 
> There is no proofing out of the good ol'asscrack here. We've not got enough information about his implant.


You said yourself that theres no actually proof about it which means that when the arm is flesh colored means that it is Tobi's actual arm since that one is confirmed.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 9, 2012)

loool3 said:


> You said yourself that theres no actually proof about it which means that when the arm is flesh colored means that it is Tobi's actual arm since that one is confirmed.



No you obviously aren't reading with your eyes open. I said it is probably _mixture_ of Tobi's real hand and Zetsu, thus not making it as pale. Kisame's use of Zetsu was much different to Tobi's, as it was a  separate entity, whereas Tobi's is integrated.

I know what your onto, with your whole Obito craze (Not that I care or mind):
Zetsu arm young = Impression of Tobi's real arm = Young Tobi = Obito


Sorry but I'd only agree, if there was proof, but there is no asspulling this one.


----------



## Easley (Jun 9, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Tobi means "kite" which relates to Tengu myth, which Kishi heavily bases the Uchiha off of


That is one possible meaning. A Kite is actually a bird, which also fits the hawk vs snake theme. 

However, To = ten, and bi = tails: aka, Juubi.

Just something to consider.


----------



## NW (Jun 9, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> No you obviously aren't reading with your eyes open. I said it is probably _mixture_ of Tobi's real hand and Zetsu, thus not making it as pale. Kisame's use of Zetsu was much different to Tobi's, as it was a  separate entity, whereas Tobi's is integrated.


You have no proof whatsoever that it looks like that due to a mixture. that is just a guess. Whereas Tobi's arms actually being young would make more sense. I am merely saying that it would make sense for Tobi's arms to actually be young rather than it just being a mixture. As, if Tobi's skin tone goes to his original one, then it makes sense that any other physical features would also. I am saying that this makes more sense than it being a mixture, as i can't think of any solid evidence to support that. I know that the only source we have oh skin color being the same is the anime, but i'm sure that they would have asked Kishi about something that drastic. Also, it seems a bit convoluted for the arms to be like that due to a mixture, and not actually be young. If Tobi was going to be old, i'm sure that Kishi would have had the Zetsu goop take the form of old hands, which he didn't, implying that he wanted Tobi to be young.



Easley said:


> That is one possible meaning. A Kite is actually a bird, which also fits the hawk vs snake theme.
> 
> However, To = ten, and bi = tails: aka, Juubi.
> 
> Just something to consider.


Interesting indeed......


----------



## Shaz (Jun 9, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> You have no proof whatsoever that it looks like that due to a mixture. that is just a guess. Whereas Tobi's arms actually being young would make more sense. I am merely saying that it would make sense for Tobi's arms to actually be young rather than it just being a mixture. As, if Tobi's skin tone goes to his original one, then it makes sense that any other physical features would also. I am saying that this makes more sense than it being a mixture, as i can't think of any solid evidence to support that. I know that the only source we have oh skin color being the same is the anime, but i'm sure that they would have asked Kishi about something that drastic. Also, it seems a bit convoluted for the arms to be like that due to a mixture, and not actually be young. If Tobi was going to be old, i'm sure that Kishi would have had the Zetsu goop take the form of old hands, which he didn't implying that he wanted Tobi to be young.



You have no proof that it is an impression of his real hand. That is _just_ a guess other than colour which could just be adopted easily as he may just of been experimented on to sync with Zetsu. Also I highly dislike theories based on "Colour", "Hair". This is easily changed for deception. Using a guess then trying to imply it is absolutely correct due to another factor (Which is irrelevant) has implicated.

Also furthermore, we don't know for sure if he is Zetsu, infact he can be something similar, thus he has different tones, but uses Zetsu to repair his injuries. Hence the comparability, yet separate entities.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 9, 2012)

Hes made of Zetsu, he got Madara cells, he met with Danzo, he split his soul, he seems to be related to Kakashi, he hates Konoha, hes aged 45+, he doesnt know Naruto but still holds a secret, he doesnt want Konoha to see his face, i mean come on dudes, its Kakashis father.

As long as people say hes Kagami/Obito/Elder son i can do whatever i want!

Oh yeah btw sup with the arm talk, his whole body is modified, where else do he get his supervitality and can break his body in half without dying? Doesnt many elder peoples arms look young? Cba looking.


----------



## NW (Jun 9, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> You have no proof that it is an impression of his real hand.


There is also nothing to prove that it is _not_ an impression of the real hand.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 9, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> There is also nothing to prove that it is _not_ an impression of the real hand.




Exactly. That is why you should stop preaching theories which have no actual evidence and in doing so implying that it is superior than all others, and attempting to silence every other theory regarding the matter. It's all guess work, thus there is no evidence in your wording to question the plausibility of the matter altogether. Rather different possibilities should be taken.

This is what I often find in this thread. You only see the hand full of regular people posting, and maybe rarely a few others. One hypocritical party tells the other that their theory is false due to guesswork, yet when the time comes, they do the same.

As of yet, no theory is correct as we'll find that out when the identity is revealed, and this shouldn't mean anyone should try shove theirs down other peoples throats, even if it's more plausible through others. And I'm not just on about you here, by the way, but in general.

If there is of course evidence to back a highlighted plot hole addressed by another member, their claim can be denied, however if there is no evidence about the matter at all, no part is correct. Savvy?


----------



## Golden Circle (Jun 10, 2012)

I WORKED OUT THE SECRET GUYS

[sp=click for secret]Tobi is Tobi  [/sp]


----------



## Escargon (Jun 10, 2012)

In all honestly, i dont think Kishi is lying about Tobi.



Why couldnt Madara have just created Tobi before dying?



Kingnaruto said:


> well i dont think he's an uchiha



He got Uchiha emblem at the back of his new dress, how can he not be an Uchiha.



Rainbow Dash said:


> I WORKED OUT THE SECRET GUYS
> 
> [sp=click for secret]Tobi is Tobi  [/sp]



Oh yeah guys heres some more secrets i worked out:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Tobi is a man.

Tobi shaves himself.

Tobi got black hair.

Tobi paints his toenails. Madara does the same. They really sure are weirdos.


----------



## NW (Jun 10, 2012)

Escargon said:


> In all honestly, i dont think Kishi is lying about Tobi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The bolded.


----------



## gehad (Jun 10, 2012)

His right Eye which has the Sharingan doesn't turn off whic means  its like kakashi , there is a possibility that he's not an uchiha .


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 10, 2012)

gehad said:


> His right Eye which has the Sharingan doesn't turn off whic means  its like kakashi , there is a possibility that he's not an uchiha .



Actually I don't think so: Kakashi closes his Sharingan eye and covers it, because it consumes a lot of chakra. That's why he only uses it in complicated fights. Tobi uses his Sharingan all the time, even his space time jutsu (True: It reminds us of Kakashis Mangekyo, but Kakashi is nearly out of chakra after using Kamui, while Tobi can spam space-time-jutsu all the time)
He hasn't yet the chakra of the Jubi, so he has to either have maaaaaaaaassive amounts of chakra, which would have been noticed by several sensor ninjas, or he is an Uchiha.
The reason why he doesn't close his eye is possibly the same as with Kakashi:
It's an implanted eye, since he uses his eyes for Izanagi and we know that he stores 100 of eyes.
Another reason could be, to be able to fast trigger the space time jutsu, without having to activate the Sharingan first. Simply a question of time and reflexes.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 10, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> The bolded.



I want to belivie that Madara told Tobi about the moon eye plan, like Tobi told Kisame, and he agreed, but Tobi is made of clone matherial to start with.


----------



## NW (Jun 10, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Exactly. That is why you should stop preaching *theories which have no actual evidence*


I feel that I have already given quite enough evidence to strongly support my claim.


----------



## Talis (Jun 10, 2012)

I am pretty sure Orochimaru stole his Soul transfer technique idea from Madara.
I am sure they were working at some point together which made Orochimaru horny about the Uchiha's.
Perhaps Madara tried to transfer his soul in someone else like Obito but failed, and Orochimaru completed it.
Madara probably left his mind behind the substitue body, the proofs which supports this is Minato and Kushina, they were death but they somehow were inside there in Naruto's belly.
Or whenever Orochimaru tried to take over Sasuke, they were both in their fighting against each other in Sasuke's mind.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 10, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I feel that I have already given quite enough evidence to strongly support my claim.




Colour is not strong enough evidence to support your claim. Everything as of yet is a guess. This is not some toddlers series to challenge their basic intellect. Especially considering such a figure in the Manga media itself.

Believe what you want, but don't try defy others when there is clearly nothing to prove it _effectively_. Stick with your claims, not constantly change, as that in itself is evidence towards lack of trust in your previous claims.


----------



## NW (Jun 10, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I am pretty sure Orochimaru stole his Soul transfer technique idea from Madara.
> I am sure they were working at some point together which made Orochimaru horny about the Uchiha's.
> Perhaps Madara tried to transfer his soul in someone else like Obito but failed, and Orochimaru completed it.
> Madara probably left his mind behind the substitue body, the proofs which supports this is Minato and Kushina, they were death but they somehow were inside there in Naruto's belly.
> Or whenever Orochimaru tried to take over Sasuke, they were both in their fighting against each other in Sasuke's mind.


So you're saying that before Madara died, he transferred his remaining chakra into obito, and talked to him through his mind in order to corrupt him? Well, it actually makes sense. It could be that Tobi's pocket dimension is similar to where orochimaru tried to take over Sasuke in his mind and where Kushina and Minato talked to Naruto. 



MissinqNin said:


> Colour is not strong enough evidence to support your claim. Everything as of yet is a guess. This is not some toddlers series to challenge their basic intellect. Especially considering such a figure in the Manga media itself.
> 
> Believe what you want, but don't try defy others when there is clearly nothing to prove it _effectively_. Stick with your claims, not constantly change, as that in itself is evidence towards lack of trust in your previous claims.


I guess you've got a point. Something like this is hard to speculate about given the limited information that is known about Zetsu.


----------



## gehad (Jun 10, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Actually I don't think so: Kakashi closes his Sharingan eye and covers it, because it consumes a lot of chakra. That's why he only uses it in complicated fights. Tobi uses his Sharingan all the time, even his space time jutsu (True: It reminds us of Kakashis Mangekyo, but Kakashi is nearly out of chakra after using Kamui, while Tobi can spam space-time-jutsu all the time)
> He hasn't yet the chakra of the Jubi, so he has to either have maaaaaaaaassive amounts of chakra, which would have been noticed by several sensor ninjas, or he is an Uchiha.
> The reason why he doesn't close his eye is possibly the same as with Kakashi:
> It's an implanted eye, since he uses his eyes for Izanagi and we know that he stores 100 of eyes.
> Another reason could be, to be able to fast trigger the space time jutsu, without having to activate the Sharingan first. Simply a question of time and reflexes.



I believe that he has massive amounts of Chakra maybe if the Zetsu & tobi theory is correct it could be that white zetsu transfers chakra automatically to Tobi giving him Chakra to be able to use his eye at all times .


----------



## Talis (Jun 10, 2012)

What if Tobi actually hide Madara's dead body in his S/T pocket?
Maybe Kabuto's dat jutsu is related to it, or perhaps he stole the Dna from black Zetsu or w/e.


----------



## Talis (Jun 10, 2012)

Is this a Bloodline limit or not?


----------



## Shaz (Jun 10, 2012)

loool3 said:


> What if Tobi actually hide Madara's dead body in his S/T pocket?
> Maybe Kabuto's dat jutsu is related to it, or perhaps he stole the Dna from black Zetsu or w/e.




As _interesting_ as that is, it is still a "What if?".

Though it could make sense. I'm sure many rogues would scavenge his body if it wasn't completely secure. Just like Hashirama's body was scavenged.


----------



## Talis (Jun 10, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> As _interesting_ as that is, it is still a "What if?".
> 
> Though it could make sense. I'm sure many rogues would scavenge his body if it wasn't completely secure. Just like Hashirama's body was scavenged.


Yeah, just got randomly in my head after someone mentioned the S/T, that might have explained Tobi's reaction as well ''where did you get that''.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 10, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Yeah, just got randomly in my head after someone mentioned the S/T, that might have explained Tobi's reaction as well ''where did you get that''.




Well if it is true, that is probably when it would be predictable to expand on Tobi's own dimension, and it's importance.


----------



## son_michael (Jun 10, 2012)

It wasn't just Madara's body that was edo tenseid though...it was his entire consciousness/will/mind. So that right there destroys the theory of tobi keeping his old body in another dimension.


----------



## MYJC (Jun 11, 2012)

I feel like people are overthinking the whole "Tobi" thing. We've basically been told who he is. 

1. Tobi says he's "No one" and doesn't care about anything but completing the Moon's Eye Plan. 
2. Kabuto refers to him as a "fake Madara". 
3. He even said he was a "shell of his former self".

Some people will find it anticlimactic, but Tobi is nothing more than a being Madara created (before his death) to carry out the Moon's Eye Plan and eventually revive him. He took on Madara's identity after he died, but once the real Madara is back in the picture he's "no one" because he has no identity of his own. 

Being a clone/creation with some of Madara's DNA, he has some of Madara's abilities (ie. controlling Kyuubi) but not all of them, and is significantly weaker than Madara. The mask was mainly so he could use Madara's identity, and so he could use Izanagi without anyone noticing. 

He was supposed to have Nagato revive Madara at some point so they could make Madara (the real one) the 10-tails Jinchuuriki. After Nagato's death he probably decided not to bother and to just become the 10-tails Jinchuuriki himself, which is why Kabuto warned Madara that the "fake Madara" might not follow the plan.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 11, 2012)

MYJC said:


> I feel like people are overthinking the whole "Tobi" thing. We've basically been told who he is.
> 
> 1. Tobi says he's "No one" and doesn't care about anything but completing the Moon's Eye Plan.
> 2. Kabuto refers to him as a "fake Madara".
> 3. He even said he was a "shell of his former self".



Plus, why would Kishi show Tobis left face and draw Madara during his flashback of bullshit lies? Correct answer: cause Tobi got Madaras face and Kishi tried to "trick" us. And not to mention hes the only character in this manga that got the exact same hairstyle as Madara (hint: meeting Kisame and meeting Itachi tho its a bit shorter there i think) and the only Uchiha we know so far, that got eyelines around that eye.

The other lines under the eye is due to age, like Mifune.

Tobi himself has none of Madaras real powers i guess, but at the same time, the chakra reserve is simply overpowered. I mean, if Madara got ressurected and fused with Tobis body, he would simply become powerfull enough to control ten tails, i guess. 
I have no clue why Tobi wants to bring up the ten tails without Madara, he got enough power cause he * strangled Konan with one arm but the one thing he lacks is the overpoweredness of Madara. 

The mask shows that he might have ten tails eye implanted on his head. The mask he wears is shaped like an eye of the ten tails. 

I have no clue what the two other masks is supposed to mean, i guess the first mask is a fire of some sort and the second mask is about bringing back all the tailed beasts cause it looks damn close to the scene where Rsennin separated the beasts. The third mask resembles the mooneye.

I have no clue why he wears that retarded mask. He claims hes Madara and he got Madaras face implanted or something, hes willing to show Kisame his face but Kisame bit his own tongue to not reveal it to Konoha.

His face must be modified of some sort, left side is Madaras and right face is something we dont know.

If his full face looks the same its way too easy to guess how he looks like. Draw Madaras or an Uchiha face, add wrinkles of Mifune or someone, and there you got your Tobi, now you can only guess if hes future Sasuke, Kagami, elder son or some crap like that.

Btw +rep.


----------



## NW (Jun 11, 2012)

At this point, I don't think there are any plausible Tobi candidates besides:

-Elder Son
-Kagami
-Izuna (Kishi could make it work with a little explanation.)
-Juubi (I know this seems weird but it actually makes a little sense.)
-Setsuna Uchiha (Hey, if it could be someone as random as Kagami, then this guy could work too!)














MYJC said:


> I feel like people are overthinking the whole "Tobi" thing. We've basically been told who he is.
> 
> 1. Tobi says he's "No one" and doesn't care about anything but completing the Moon's Eye Plan.
> 2. Kabuto refers to him as a "fake Madara".
> ...


Well, this seems really plausible. At this point, I don't give a shit who Tobi is anymore. I just wanna know. Kishi's been milking this shit on for too long. So, no matter what, Tobi's identity will be anti-climactic anyway. He could also be Kagami.


----------



## Talis (Jun 11, 2012)

MYJC said:


> I feel like people are overthinking the whole "Tobi" thing. We've basically been told who he is.
> 
> 1. Tobi says he's "No one" and doesn't care about anything but completing the Moon's Eye Plan.
> 2. Kabuto refers to him as a "fake Madara".
> ...


1: Tobi said more things then that things like him being Madara or the Kyuubi attack being natural oh wait.
2: Kabuto doesn't know who Tobi is, and have you been sleeping for the last few years? 
Tobi keept claiming himself being the real Madara so let alone the ''fake'' part. It's just Kishi playing around.

And how many times did i tell this already?
I am nobody, i don't want to be anybody, so he doesn't want to be an anybody while he's already a nobody?
You don't have to be a professor to figure out the sensetence in that one...
That line even completely proofs that he's completely the opposite compared to the allmighty Madara.


----------



## MYJC (Jun 11, 2012)

loool3 said:


> 1: Tobi said more things then that things like him being Madara or the Kyuubi attack being natural oh wait.
> 2: Kabuto doesn't know who Tobi is, and have you been sleeping for the last few years?
> Tobi keept claiming himself being the real Madara so let alone the ''fake'' part. It's just Kishi playing around.
> 
> ...



How do you know Kabuto doesn't know who Tobi is? We don't know for sure either way, but he knew that Tobi: 

1. Wasn't really Madara
2. Had some kind of plan with Madara

So there's a good chance he does know who Tobi is. 

And Tobi was simply saying that he's nobody and is no longer interested in pretending to be anyone. In other words he was saying that he has no identity of his own and has no need to take Madara's identity anymore.


----------



## Talis (Jun 11, 2012)

MYJC said:


> How do you know Kabuto doesn't know who Tobi is? We don't know for sure either way, but he knew that Tobi:
> 
> 1. Wasn't really Madara
> 2. Had some kind of plan with Madara
> ...


Duh, he calls him fake Madara because he doesn't know whoever he is, he even commented in a chapter that he wanted to see that mortified face of his which means Tobi is a random a LIVING weakling, or else he wouldn't commented about the mortified face, if it was a clone then theres no reason to feel mortified being weak.

And on top of that if Tobi was really Madara in some way then why does Kabuto licks edo Madara's ass while he acts cocky against Tobi....

2: How does that support ''Tobi is a Madara clone'' theory...

Edit: And again you don't reply on this one like the last few times.
You probably will pop up after few weeks with the same bored stuff ''he said he's a nobody so he's a clone'' while i keep pop up with the same line.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 11, 2012)

gehad said:


> I believe that he has massive amounts of Chakra maybe if the Zetsu & tobi theory is correct it could be that white zetsu transfers chakra automatically to Tobi giving him Chakra to be able to use his eye at all times .



There a several sensor type ninjas in this war. They would have noticed a such high amount of chakra.



loool3 said:


> What if Tobi actually hide Madara's dead body in his S/T pocket?
> Maybe Kabuto's dat jutsu is related to it, or perhaps he stole the Dna from black Zetsu or w/e.



No. The Edo Tensei wouldn't be possible then.



MYJC said:


> I feel like people are overthinking the whole "Tobi" thing. We've basically been told who he is.
> 
> 1. Tobi says he's "No one" and doesn't care about anything but completing the Moon's Eye Plan.
> 2. Kabuto refers to him as a "fake Madara".
> ...



You Madara loves won't give up, won't you? I will say nothing to this-.-



TobiUchiha111 said:


> At this point, I don't think there are any plausible Tobi candidates besides:
> 
> -Elder Son
> -Kagami
> ...



Maybe Shisui, but yeah you are right.



> Well, this seems really plausible. At this point, I don't give a shit who Tobi is anymore. I just wanna know. Kishi's been milking this shit on for too long. So, no matter what, Tobi;s identity will be anti-climactic anyway. He could also be Kagami. Personally, I am hoping that Madara used the splitting technique to split himself in half and Tobi is still Madara but wants to reunite with his other half to become whole again. Although, there are too many holes in that for me to believe it.



Why do you hope that? It would be boring. "Oh yeah another Madara" As if there wasn't one, who just used 25 clones and used his strongest jutsu, which is absolutely overpowered. We don't need a clone of him-.-


----------



## NW (Jun 11, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> There a several sensor type ninjas in this war. They would have noticed a such high amount of chakra.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The bolded.


----------



## MYJC (Jun 11, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Duh, he calls him fake Madara because he doesn't know whoever he is, he even commented in a chapter that he wanted to see that mortified face of his which means Tobi is a random a LIVING weakling, or else he wouldn't commented about the mortified face, if it was a clone then theres no reason to feel mortified being weak.
> 
> And on top of that if Tobi was really Madara in some way then why does Kabuto licks edo Madara's ass while he acts cocky against Tobi....
> 
> ...



Or maybe, Kabuto called Tobi a "fake Madara" because he IS a "fake Madara". Also, Kabuto didn't kiss Madara's ass, he just warned him that the fake Madara might betray him. 

And it supports the "Madara Clone" theory because it explains why he is "no one". A clone doesn't have his own identity, he just pretends to be someone.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 11, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Or maybe, Kabuto called Tobi a "fake Madara" because he IS a "fake Madara". Also, Kabuto didn't kiss Madara's ass, he just warned him that the fake Madara might betray him.
> 
> And it supports the "Madara Clone" theory because it explains why he is "no one". A clone doesn't have his own identity, he just pretends to be someone.



And it's absolute boring-.-
Izuna would also be a noone.
Elder Son would be a noone, since he wasn't the choosen one by RS.
That's not a proof.
Madara-theories are sooooo boring....


----------



## ch1p (Jun 11, 2012)

This manga and parallels... I don't think there's much anyone can say to deny this. It's a driving force, from the very first arc, with Konohamaru paralleling Naruto in his quest for Hokage, or the author making a direct comparision between the relationships between Haku and Zabuza with Naruto and Iruka. The parallel between Team 7 and the Sannin is very clear. However, there's another which is just as clear, and has never been focused as much by the fandom. I mean the parallel between Team 7 and Team Minato.


*Spoiler*: _Team 7 // Team Minato offtopic_ 



Obito and Naruto are very alike. In personality, both are loud, foolish and carefree though with a big heart and hidden depths. Both have a similar appearance, despite the colour difference in hair and eyes, as they have similar hair shape, eye shape, face shape. While that can be easily dismissed due to generic face in anime, their clothes cannot. They're mirror images - orange clothes with blue highlights against blue clothes with orange highlights and we can't forget those goggles, which Naruto had once as well, upon a time. Furthermore and very importantly, notice how Obito was the one that taught Kakashi "those that don't care for their teammates are trash", who in turn taught this to Naruto, and who follows it so obsessively half the board has a problem with it. The other three members of Team 7 have at some point detached themselves from their teammates (Sasuke when he left, Sakura and Kakashi in Iron Country towards Sasuke), while Naruto staunchily believes Sasuke is still 'his friend' despite all those murder attempts.

Rin and Sakura is more difficult comparision as we don't know much about the latter. However the little that we've seen gives us some obvious hints. Both are girls  and both are medics. Both were portrayed as getting in trouble with the enemy, the former her only feat on panel and the latter a recurrent role she had in part I. Both are portrayed as the pacifier betweewn the two boys of their teams

Kakashi and Sasuke have been compared since the beginning, even before Team Minato was ever introduced. The taciturn personality, the Uchiha bloodline that Kakashi posesses, Sasuke learning Chidori, the overall competence and genius in skills. With the Kakashi sidestory, we learn that Kakashi struggled with inadequacy due to the comparisions towards a family member and much was expected from him due to his lineage. We also learn that Kakashi has family issues in his childhood which have shaped him into what he was at 13.

Speaking of the sidestory, that is filled with situations that can be paralled with Team 7, but all condensed into one single mission. Kakashi does come across as much colder than Sasuke and Obito as more of a leader than Naruto, but all in all, it's a fair comparision. I could do this for the sake of the post, but I think it's deviating from the topic.

Anyway, even the relationships between the team members is the same. Obito / Naruto is in love with Rin / Sakura, who is in love with Sasuke / Kakashi. Obito / Naruto views Kakashi / Sasuke as a genius while himself as a loser, a bit of a rivalry between the angsty and powerful character and the joyful and dead last character. Kakashi / Sasuke views Obito / Naruto as a crybaby with no talent and Rin / Sakura as an annoyance.


*Spoiler*: _Complementary Images_ 












In this context, Tobi  as we know him, being an older and bitter Obito would be thematically poignant. Remember Itachi's words when he says Tobi is what Naruto becomes, if he doesn't rely on his friends. Itachi made a strong correlation there, as his words classify Naruto and Tobi as the same type of character. Under the scenario that Obito is Tobi, there is a point where he ceased to believe teammates and friends are worthy of relying onto. It even ties 3/4 of Team 7, as Obito _is_ Naruto v2.0 (or the other way around, is an Uchiha like Sasuke, and is Kakashi's old teammate. And maybe even 4/4 considering Rin's fate is still a huge ?, no matter if two databooks were released where this could have been explained (and was never touched in anime filler either, one wonders if Kishimoto ever told them _not to_).

However, the big elephant in the room with the Obito theory has has always been the same and hasn't changed from the moment it was introduced. *What could possibly make Obito turn into such a bitter character?* There is an argument to be made with Rin and it's worth mentioning we have yet to know her fate although we know she's very much _dead_. It would fit Kishimoto's clich? storytelling methods (imagine if Naruto lost Sakura, what kind of character would he turn to be), even if Kakashi was the one responsible for Rin's death (he admits he couldn't save her when he was dying against Pain?). Is this enough of a motivation for Obito to do a 180 and turn into Tobi? I don't think it is. *This flaw has always been the weakness of the Obito theory. It has never been answered correctly and to be honest, I don't see a way for it to be.* Still, it's interesting to see everything else fits so very well.

To those thinking it's too clich?, remember that similar situation where the fourth Hokage was correctly guessed as Naruto's father and still people refused to believe and ridiculous theories were spun to explain what was obvious all along? Too clich? is not an excuse for Kishimoto.

Still it's either Obito or Izuna. No other character needs to have a hidden face, no matter if my favourite theory is Sasuke from the future a corrupted So6P.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 11, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> Still it's either Obito or Izuna. No other character needs to have a hidden face, no matter if my favourite theory is Sasuke from the future a corrupted So6P.



Not at all, the other possibilties are still valid:

-Elder Son (Still alive through Fushi Tensei - Uses body of Obito - needs mask so Obito won't be recognized)
-Kagami (Known by people like Danzo, who would have definitely have recognized him)


----------



## NW (Jun 11, 2012)

Some more proof that Tobi could be Kagami: 




I removed Tobi's wrinkles on Paint, and his face looks EXACTLY like Kagami's. Same facial features and everything! Here's another pic connecting the two's features to further pronounce the similarities: 



This, compiled with all the other evidence of Tobi being Kagami, makes it very likely that Tobi is Kagami. Kagami also, like Obito, fits into some of Kishi's themes. (Not gonna say which, cuz I'm too lazy to type them all out, but trust me, there are like 6 themes that he fits under.)


----------



## Shaz (Jun 11, 2012)

I don't think removing wrinkles from paint will tell us much to be honest. We've not even seen much of the other side of his face. 

It's really anyone's game if we play by wrinkles.


----------



## NW (Jun 12, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I don't think removing wrinkles from paint will tell us much to be honest. We've not even seen much of the other side of his face.
> 
> It's really anyone's game if we play by wrinkles.


You've got a point, but it can be assumed that the left side of his face probably looks just like the right side. So, removing wrinkles from the right side is enough to know what the other side probably looks like. Besides, his face needs to be identical to that of his true identity, otherwise there would be no point.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 12, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Some more proof that Tobi could be Kagami:
> 
> I removed Tobi's wrinkles on Paint, and his face looks EXACTLY like Kagami's. Same facial features and everything! Here's another pic connecting the two's features to further pronounce the similarities:
> 
> This, compiled with all the other evidence of Tobi being Kagami, makes it very likely that Tobi is Kagami. Kagami also, like Obito, fits into some of Kishi's themes. (Not gonna say which, cuz I'm too lazy to type them all out, but trust me, there are like 6 themes that he fits under.)



You shouldn't focus that much on how they look, expecially when we know that Tobi is made of Goo. He can look like anyone.
Even if it fits in Kishi's themes, Tobi being Kagami is more unlikely, since he hasn't even a name in the manga, nobody knows him. 75% of the readers will cry "what the fuck" and jump out of the window, if it's Kagami, because everybody thinks that he is a well-known character and Kagami is everything else than well-known. He is an one-panel-Uchiha-without-a-name.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 12, 2012)

I see you arnt that experienced at breaking someones identity.

If Tobis whole face resembled an Uchiha it would take about 2 seconds to draw it.

Try thinking instead. Why didnt Kishi show the right side of his face? What hides there? A different face?

If Tobis whole face looks the same then theres no need for that mask. Just guess wether hes elder son, Kagami or someone like that.

I mean what would be the point? Tobi teased Naruto about his face, so being some old Uchiha Naruto doesnt know a jackshit of would be more anticlimatic than a Madaraclone wouldnt it.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 12, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Try thinking instead. Why didnt Kishi show the right side of his face? What hides there? A different face?
> 
> If Tobis whole face looks the same then theres no need for that mask. Just guess wether hes elder son, Kagami or someone like that.



You still don't get the Elder Son theory, do you?
He takes the body of other Uchihas, such as Obito, who has a scar in his face, if Kishi would show that scar, we would know that Tobi uses Obito's body.




> I mean what would be the point? Tobi teased Naruto about his face, so being some old Uchiha Naruto doesnt know a jackshit of would be more anticlimatic than a Madaraclone wouldnt it.



Wrong. Since he uses Obito's face it would make a perfect reveal, since Kakashi will recognize Obito. And everyone is like "It's Obito, how is that possbile" Then he explains that he is NOT Obito, but the Elder Son.
This would create emotions and pressure. While a Tobi=Madara reveal would be like this:
"Oh... He is Madara... That's boring... Kishi.... U Suck...."
"Why don't you give us some more Madaras Kishi? Maybe Naruto is Madara, and Kakashi, and Sakura, maybe everyone is Madara???" 
Seriously NOOONE wants to see another Madara....


----------



## Shaz (Jun 12, 2012)

Escargon said:


> I am not that experienced at breaking someones identity.




Fixed.


----------



## Talis (Jun 12, 2012)

Escargon said:


> I see you arnt that experienced at breaking someones identity.
> 
> If Tobis whole face resembled an Uchiha it would take about 2 seconds to draw it.
> 
> ...


How can you talk like that since it's clearly confirmed that he has no wrinkles on his other face side; 

1: You can even see the wrinkles on his regular face side on page 1 from that far sight, you can clearly see that his other face has no wrinkles + he's staying in front of a wall which has a bunch of boulders which clearly hints to Obito.

And i am not popping this out from behind, its clearly confirmed above here, it also makes clearly sense to cover the clear face side or else it would be 100% confirmed Tobi being Obito.


----------



## NW (Jun 12, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> You shouldn't focus that much on how they look, expecially when we know that Tobi is made of Goo. He can look like anyone.
> Even if it fits in Kishi's themes, Tobi being Kagami is more unlikely, since he hasn't even a name in the manga, nobody knows him. 75% of the readers will cry "what the fuck" and jump out of the window, if it's Kagami, because everybody thinks that he is a well-known character and Kagami is everything else than well-known. He is an one-panel-Uchiha-without-a-name.


How Tobi looks is very essential to his true identity. Also, I doubt he implanted Zetsu goo into his face. Also, his face NEEDS to look like that of his true identity, otherwise there would have been no point for the mask. And, for the record, his name WAS given in the chapter he appeared in.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 12, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> You still don't get the Elder Son theory, do you?
> He takes the body of other Uchihas, such as Obito, who has a scar in his face, if Kishi would show that scar, we would know that Tobi uses Obito's body.
> 
> 
> ...



1. I dont care about 1 page irrelevant character. Thats the problem.

Even if Elder Son taking over a dead body makes sense (too bad filling it with Zetsu crap and taking all of his power makes this theory rot away) that would ruin Kishimotos reputition. 

2. Its wrinkles! Exactly the same as Mifunes wrinkles! And the first wrinkle is 100% due to age, as you can see with every other 50+ character.

Plus how the * can Tobi be Obito anyway. To begin with, what sane man says "Do you have any idea how LONG ive been waiting for this?" after one year of waiting? And since when does Obito wants to crush Konoha all of a sudden? And how could Obito meet up with Madara if he died a bit after activating Rinnegan?

3. Its Madaras face. Why do you think Kishi showed Tobis face and tricking us to belivie hes the actual Madara by drawing Madaras face in the flashback which looks exactly like Tobis face but younger?

You want proof that he got Madara implanted?

Sure, Tobi can be any guy with Madaras cells, but im pretty sure Tobi is 50+.



MissinqNin said:


> Fixed.



Sure guess im the only one that can see that Kishi hid Tobis right face in chapter 510 for a reason. Guess i have to take my pills.



loool3 said:


> How can you talk like that since it's clearly confirmed that he has no wrinkles on his other face side;
> 
> 1: You can even see the wrinkles on his regular face side on page 1 from that far sight, you can clearly see that his other face has no wrinkles + he's staying in front of a wall which has a bunch of boulders which clearly hints to Obito.
> 
> And i am not popping this out from behind, its clearly confirmed above here, it also makes clearly sense to cover the clear face side or else it would be 100% confirmed Tobi being Obito.



I didnt say his whole face had wrinkles. 

I said that its no point for Kishi to hide his face behind that mask if the whole face looks the same. 

Just take an Uchiha, add Mifunes wrinkles, and you got Tobi.

And how can it be Obito if he gave baby Nagato rinnegans O_O?

In all seriousness, most characters have the same Obito hairstyle if cut. For example, take Yamato. Who couldnt say such character deactivated his Sharingan?


----------



## Talis (Jun 12, 2012)

Escargon said:


> I didnt say his whole face had wrinkles.
> 
> I said that its no point for Kishi to hide his face behind that mask if the whole face looks the same.
> 
> ...


You don't get it do you?
If Kishi reveals the 1 eyed S/T oranged masked mans identity his left and right face side at once, and the left one has wrinkles while the other one has no wrinkles, what will the reader scream if they see that?
Obito of course, all the Madara act will have been gone for nothing thats why he hide that.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 12, 2012)

^

But how old was Obito when he gave baby Nagato the rinnegan? 





I dont know what to say, i dont want to say who Tobi is, but really, my mind is pointing to a Madara clone but thats just me. I shouldnt have forced my opinions to you guys. 

The point is, he is a clone. Hes made of clone material. Its like saying, fireballs are made of chakra. There cant be anything else.

How many times have Kishi not let us down?


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 12, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> How Tobi looks is very essential to his true identity. Also, I doubt he implanted Zetsu goo into his face. Also, his face NEEDS to look like that of his true identity, otherwise there would have been no point for the mask. And, for the record, his name WAS given in the chapter he appeared in.



Ofc he looks like a known character, but that doesn't mean we can identify him, by taking a look at a picture, where we see 1/12 of his face.



Escargon said:


> 1. I dont care about 1 page irrelevant character. Thats the problem.



Maybe you should. A discussion thread makes no sense if you don't think about other theories.



> Even if Elder Son taking over a dead body makes sense (too bad filling it with Zetsu crap and taking all of his power makes this theory rot away) that would ruin Kishimotos reputition.



Why? I don't get the point? Obitos body was half crushed, so he used goo to renew it. It wouldn't ruin anything?!



> 2. Its wrinkles! Exactly the same as Mifunes wrinkles! And the first wrinkle is 100% due to age, as you can see with every other 50+ character.



Or it's because he got a fkn-rock in his face.



> Plus how the * can Tobi be Obito anyway. To begin with, what sane man says "Do you have any idea how LONG ive been waiting for this?" after one year of waiting? And since when does Obito wants to crush Konoha all of a sudden? And how could Obito meet up with Madara if he died a bit after activating Rinnegan?



I didn't say he is Obito. I said the Elder Son uses his body.



> 3. Its Madaras face. Why do you think Kishi showed Tobis face and tricking us to belivie hes the actual Madara by drawing Madaras face in the flashback which looks exactly like Tobis face but younger?



O.o Where does he show his entire face? It looks not more like Madara than like Obito. Srsly



> You want proof that he got Madara implanted?



Yeah but u won't find one, since it's stupid.



> Sure guess im the only one that can see that Kishi hid Tobis right face in chapter 510 for a reason. Guess i have to take my pills.



Guess so, can't find it.



> I said that its no point for Kishi to hide his face behind that mask if the whole face looks the same.



There is a point: Tobi is a well-known character.



> And how can it be Obito if he gave baby Nagato rinnegans O_O?


I didn't say that he is Obito.



> In all seriousness, most characters have the same Obito hairstyle if cut. For example, take Yamato. Who couldnt say such character deactivated his Sharingan?



I don't get that point at all.


----------



## Talis (Jun 12, 2012)

Escargon said:


> ^
> 
> But how old was Obito when he gave baby Nagato the rinnegan?
> 
> ...


Look at pic number 1-2-3- and the last one.
These are the real Madara's.
Tobi talked the whole time about Madara's flashback even the long masked haired one in front of Itachi was the real Madara, this answers all your questions.

And don't give me that bored hair can be cut argument, even here Kishi is warning us that Tobi is something completely a different person compared to Madara by showing his hairs. 
Or why the fcking hell else will Kishi show a panel like that, so your Madara aren't you, ''shows short hair''.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 12, 2012)

He replaced his arm with Zetsu goo. That explains everything.

Why he could take Narutos headbutt without breaking his neck.

How he survived 4ths jutsu on his back.

How he softened his right arm to make it fall off. But at another time, VS the root boys, he BROKE. His. Arm. And. Ripped. It. Off. just cause he didnt take the fight too seriously.

And again, how can it be Madara that met Itachi when Madara died shortly after activating the Rinnegan, giving it to Tobi so Tobi could implant it on baby Nagato?

And i guess its true that Tobi having MADARAS FREAKING CELLS ON HIM IS RETARDED. 

Its as retarded as saying:

Yamato is a copy of Hashirama.

Zetsu is a cell clone of Hashirama.

Danzou got a face implanted on his shoulder.

Danzou got eyes on his arm.

Madara got Hashiramas face implanted on his chest.

Go on make your theories, i will not argue, i do accept other peoples theories anyways.

Im off playing TF2 until Tobis face gets revealed and this whole forum goes insane.


----------



## Talis (Jun 12, 2012)

Escargon said:


> 1. Okay youre right here.
> 
> 2. If he replaced his arm with Zetsu goo, how come he got intense amount of chakra? How come he can take on Narutos headbutt without breaking his neck?
> 
> ...


2: Hashiramas chakra and his own Uchiha, don't forget how Tobi commented about Danzou being able to controle the Kyuubi just because he had both Dna's.
His mask was made of special materials like h said it himself which fits for a battle. 

4: Who wanted a random Nagato to give him the Rinnegan?
5: What, ur stoned or something lol? Tobi keept claiming being Madara even when Kishi showed the other Madara in the flashback he claimed to be that guy.
6: To bad my previous panel proofs that he has no implanted face, because all these implanted Dna faces we saw were floating above of the users flesh.
7: Your still denying a fact, he's hiding the non wrinkled side face, if he showed us Tobi with 50% scarred face and 50% clean face that would have 1 shot reveal his identity obviously.
8: uh yeah ok, i know that already for 10 years lol.
10: People like you always say that, there are hard facts like the orange 1 eye holed mask, and the freaking Kakashis year which got delayed 3XXXX, and Kakashi is even fighting right there now against Tobi, AND Kishi said that this year will be definately Kakashis year.
This is even just the part of the Tobito's theory i am to lazy to write them all.

And whats your theory based off?
He has a face of Madara implanted, i mean seriously, while you got these facts for Obito you just pop out some random fantasy stuff and blame other theories while you don't know a thing about it.

And it's so freaking obvious that Tobi isn't a Madara, he isn't even following Madara's plans.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 12, 2012)

loool3 said:


> 2: Hashiramas chakra and his own Uchiha, don't forget how Tobi commented about Danzou being able to controle the Kyuubi just because he had both Dna's.
> His mask was made of special materials like h said it himself which fits for a battle.
> 
> 4: Who wanted a random Nagato to give him the Rinnegan?
> ...



1. Didnt he say he made Zetsu out of Hashirama tissue? I dont know.

But damn thats one good argument finally. His own mask could have stopped him from breaking his neck. 

But every good argument seems to lead to another. He could take a big jutsu on his back without breaking it apart. He got hurt but no so hurt he couldnt move.

2. Why they gave Rinnegan to Nagato is something i cant figure out, theres a hole in there.

And the more deep i go into this the more retarded it seems. 

3. People reading the manga that time got tricked that Tobi is Madara. Im pretty sure people reading the manga AFTER that time could think something else but we that read it that time really belivied that Tobi is Madara, i mean look exactly like him and all. 
So im not sure if we were stoned.

4. I mean he have putten cells on half of his face. 

5. Thats what i mean. People are basing the theories that 100% of his face looks the same. Then the theory would be broken already.

6. -

7. Youre into something here. Tho i dont think Kakashis year will happen. "Uh i forgot about it."

These theories seems to be like the theories of Pain a long time ago.

But what do i know. Tobi stared at Kakashis eye and Kakashi showed up VS Tobi, its almost obvious that Tobi is Obito but he cant be it cause Kishi screwed the timeline up.

I mean why would Obito attack Konoha? Why would Tobi say "do you know how long ive been waiting for this moment?!" after just one year? Why did he grow up so fast? I guess, he got taken over by a parasite.

But it still doesnt make sense. His body got crushed by thousands of stones. Was the body a Zetsureplacement? Did the Zetsu steal Obitos right eye and implant it on himself to trick everyone?

I honestly dont know.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 12, 2012)

I just don't see what would be the surprise in Tobi being Madara? 

There's just no "Wow" to it. It has to be someone else which can relate their motives with the Tobi's plan.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 12, 2012)

Actually guys. I just overreacted im sorry.

I will still listen to theories, except Izuna or Kagami theories cause i would not be shocked.

I do hope its Obito somehow but idk. Kishi has let us down way too many times so it wouldnt surprise me if Tobis just a Zetsu who can change shapes, yes, thats how lame it can be time to time.

Obito with half of his face crushed. Atleast it looks damn better than Kagami.

And i find it odd that Tobi had half of his body wrapped up when he met Kisame.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 12, 2012)

I just wish Kishi would hurry the f*ck up with this 

Tobi is no better than a provocative stripping girl. He just never shows you enough.


----------



## NW (Jun 12, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Actually guys. I just overreacted im sorry.
> 
> I will still listen to theories, except Izuna or Kagami theories cause i would not be shocked.
> 
> ...


Finally, you've seen the light! 
*Spoiler*: __ 



HALLELUJAH!


----------



## Shaz (Jun 12, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Finally, you've seen the light!
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




Who used Izanami on him?


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 12, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I just don't see what would be the surprise in Tobi being Madara?
> 
> There's just no "Wow" to it. It has to be someone else which can relate their motives with the Tobi's plan.



Agreed!



Escargon said:


> Actually guys. I just overreacted im sorry.
> 
> I will still listen to theories, except Izuna or Kagami theories cause i would not be shocked.
> 
> ...



We only wanted you to see, that the other theories are all valid. Madara is valid too, but it's boring, since we just got 26 Madaras and one with ultimative overpowered Susanoo.



MissinqNin said:


> I just wish Kishi would hurry the f*ck up with this
> 
> Tobi is no better than a provocative stripping girl. He just never shows you enough.



Agreed! Nice comparison  I think about chapter 900 we will know it.



MissinqNin said:


> Who used Izanami on him?



I still got both of my eyes. Either I am ultimative Uchiha, who doesn't lose eyes to use Izanami, or I didn't use it..


----------



## NW (Jun 12, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Agreed! Nice comparison  I think about chapter 900 we will know it.


o.O  WTF?! Chapter 900?!?!?!?! Don't you think that's a little extreme?!


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 13, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> o.O  WTF?! Chapter 900?!?!?!?! Don't you think that's a little extreme?!



*600 
missclicked and didnt notice


----------



## Shaz (Jun 16, 2012)

Rinne Tensei Tobi Identity thread!

Gather round Tobi lovers. 

I do also think it's quite possible now that Madara is here that on chapter 600 Tobi's identity will be revealed, fingers crossed. However before then we might get a few more hints.


----------



## Res1990 (Jun 16, 2012)

tobi is not an uchiha.
-he was able to control kyubi withou ms
-also tobi stated that he was glad that itachi didnt know everything about him. That was because itachi thought that a non uchiha will not have knowledge and be able to use izanagi.


----------



## Talis (Jun 16, 2012)

Res1990 said:


> tobi is not an uchiha.
> -he was able to control kyubi withou ms
> -also tobi stated that he was glad that itachi didnt know everything about him. *That was because itachi thought that a non uchiha will not have knowledge and be able to use izanagi.*


Are we reading the same manga?


----------



## Res1990 (Jun 16, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Are we reading the same manga?



itachi probably knew who was tobi. But because he is not uchiha he thought he didnt have knowledge of izanagi, that is what i think


----------



## Talis (Jun 16, 2012)

Res1990 said:


> itachi probably knew who was tobi. But because he is not uchiha he thought he didnt have knowledge of izanagi, that is what i think


There isn't a single panel/hint which says on Tobi not being an Uchiha. -_-


----------



## Shaz (Jun 16, 2012)

Res1990 said:


> itachi probably knew who was tobi. But because he is not uchiha he thought he didnt have knowledge of izanagi, that is what i think



Sir, what in the actual name of fuck is this?


----------



## Talis (Jun 16, 2012)

I can't believe how ''strange'' people are, they hear a thing and they immediately accept it blindly, ok Tobi claiming to be Madara was play well understandable, then the ''Tobi is a no one shit'', then people read some random things and they accept it tho. 
Think before starting with theories.


----------



## Res1990 (Jun 16, 2012)

my thoughts but maybe am wrong i dont know. But its too obvious for tobi to be an uchiha so i think he will not be in order to suprise us


----------



## Shaz (Jun 16, 2012)

They need a medical nin to help them.

Kishi has casted the highest level of genjutsu known possible; the mindfak no jutsu.


----------



## Baroxio (Jun 16, 2012)

Just moving this here...




Baroxio said:


> Tobi = The Nidaime Hokage, *i.e. Tobirama*.
> 
> Around long enough to know everything? Check.
> Mastery of S/T techniques? Check.
> ...


----------



## Shaz (Jun 16, 2012)

Tobirama decided to use hair dye?


----------



## Escargon (Jun 17, 2012)

Tobi himself is made of clone stuffs, why would Tobirama need it? Why would he need it when there are forbidden scrolls?


It could even be Hiruzen SaruTOBI. He fought Hashirama.  Oh wait..

Seriously, im pretty sure Tobi is a zetsu clone of someone that has already died in this manga.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 17, 2012)

Why would Tobirama ask Kabuto to explain a jutsu to him, what he himself had invented?
Furthermore Madara lost to Hashirama. If I was Tobirama and, as you said, I am Madara's mate, then I would help him kicking Hashirama's ass, instead of waiting for one of them to die, to revive him later.
Why didn't Tobi revive him with the Edo Tensei, he invented, after Nagato died?


----------



## Talis (Jun 17, 2012)

Baroxio said:


> Just moving this here...


Just moving this here...



loool3 said:


> Tobirama not knowing his own Edo Tensei technique would be the worst fail ever...


----------



## Shaz (Jun 17, 2012)




----------



## Karachi (Jun 17, 2012)

Going with the theme of this i will guess Tobi is something Madara invented before dying. Like literally created, for whatever reason.

 I toyed with it being elder son etc for a while but honestly if Kishi is going to pull another Pein/Nagato then it doesn't really matter who he is until after we know his/its identity. It seems we get backstories after the characters which diminishes the impact or emotional attachment for me personally. It's a problem with keeping a big mystery going on for this long, eventually someone will guess it so it's better to just invent a new plot thread.


----------



## son_michael (Jun 17, 2012)

Baroxio said:


> Just moving this here...



terrible theory. In addition to tobi not knowing edo tensei...tobirama's soul is inside the death god.


----------



## Yoroi Mitarashi (Jun 17, 2012)

*Yet another Tobi identity thread...*

By now we all already know that the "Uchiha Madara" aka Tobi that used to lead the Akatsuki is actually NOT the real "Uchiha Madara". This is because the real Uchiha Madara is already dead!

Some people are speculating that the masked man is probably Uchiha Madara's brother, Uchiha Izuna. However, remember the time when this masked man tried to show Sasuke his face? Even though in the end he couldn't because Itachi planted something to activate on his face if he were to show his face to Sasuke. But doesn't this mean that by showing his face to Sasuke means Sasuke would "immediately" recognize who he was? If he was Uchiha Izuna, Madara's brother, even if he shows his face to Sasuke, Sasuke wouldn't have any idea who he was, right? Some people are also speculating that the masked man is Uchiha Obito, which doesn't make sense, because Sasuke wouldn't know who Uchiha Obito was! Soon after it was revealed that the real Uchiha Madara is already dead, the speculations about Uchiha Obito being Tobi's real identity starting to circulate again just like years ago. Guys, that speculation is getting old! It is unlikely that Tobi is Obito! Old speculation is old!

OK, so who do I think this Tobi is?! *It's Uchiha Fugaku! Uchiha Fugaku is Sasuke and Itachi's FATHER!!*

I strongly think Tobi aka the masked man is actually Sasuke and Itachi's father! If you think about it, it makes sense if this masked man is Sasuke and Itachi's father. Let's say Itachi already knew about this, and the killing of his father in their home is just to deceive the young Sasuke. Or probably the killing of his father was just a genjutsu done by this masked man to deceive Itachi, not knowing that Itachi was well aware of it. Remember, Uchiha clan is tainted with deceit and backstabbing. The Uchiha's killed one another to gain power, namely the power of the ultimate sharingan. So there's no surprise if Sasuke and Itachi's father, who was the leader of the clan at the time of the clan massacre, is doing all of this to gain ultimate power for himself (Tsuki no me), and he's doing all of this under the name of "Uchiha Madara" just so that people get scared by hearing the name!

Let's say this speculation is true, when the Naruto series was to end, Sasuke, who is right now so stubborn and insists on bringing back the whole Uchiha clan, and insists to want to restore the name of Uchiha, would be crushed. When Sasuke learnt that this masked man is his father, he'd probably change his views on lots of things (makes it easier to end the story). I mean, think about it, and try to piece everything together, it would make so much sense, wouldn't it?


----------



## Demonic Sharingan (Jun 17, 2012)

Sounds believeable. Fugaku being tobi would shock sauce so much that it eventually would show sauce how the world is and such, and could possibly help naruto find him


----------



## Shaz (Jun 17, 2012)

These theories go .
Sick of these fucking Tobi threads.​


----------



## Yoroi Mitarashi (Jun 17, 2012)

Demonic Sharingan said:


> Sounds believeable. Fugaku being tobi would shock sauce so much that it eventually would show sauce how the world is and such, and could possibly help naruto find him



It's the only plausible way of looking at it...


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jun 18, 2012)

Fugaku doesn't make sense. His motivations were entirely different from Tobi's, who helped exterminate the clan.

You don't even get the "shock" factor because Sasuke isn't around for the reveal.

On a related note, so much for Itachi and Madara meeting.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 18, 2012)

Yoroi Mitarashi said:


> It's the only plausible way of looking at it...



Not really... Fugaku hasn't even a motive


----------



## Yoroi Mitarashi (Jun 18, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Not really... Fugaku hasn't even a motive



He could be mad about the Leaf betraying the clan (he was the leader at the time of the massacre), thinking the Uchiha controlled Kurama. And also, he's Tobi, he just does for the lulz or to be the second Rikudou. He doesn't need an extremely well thought out motive.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 18, 2012)

Fugaku has no motive at all to help kill the entire clan with his son, and then rob their eyes.

It is so implausible there is little need to even debate it.


----------



## Easley (Jun 18, 2012)

loool3 said:


> There isn't a single panel/hint which says on Tobi not being an Uchiha. -_-


Right, and there isn't a single panel that proves Tobi is an Uchiha.

He lies all the time, so even claiming to be "a living breathing Uchiha" is in doubt. And lets not forget the Madara ruse. 

His sharingan is weak evidence too because they can be implanted so easily, and Tobi collects eyes. We really know nothing about this guy. He's a complete mystery.

Basically, if it wasn't for Kishi's Uchiha fixation, I'd be sure that Tobi is someone else. Tobi = Madara was a good twist, Tobi = another Uchiha would just be boring.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 18, 2012)

loool3 said:


> There isn't a single panel/hint which says on Tobi not being an Uchiha. -_-



>Implying Kishi even intends to give us hints

He is a jammy whore when it comes to Tobi


----------



## NW (Jun 18, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Not really... Fugaku hasn't even a motive


Having a currently known motive is irrelevant. Like I keep saying, a character's motive can be shown AFTER the dramatic reveal. I'm not defending the Fugaku theory(quite frankly, i think it's a piece of shit, lol.) but I'm just saying in general.



Yoroi Mitarashi said:


> And also, he's Tobi, he just does for the lulz or to be the second Rikudou. He doesn't need an extremely well thought out motive.


And this is where you are extremely wrong. Tobi NEEDS to have a solid motive for what he is doing. Judging from all that depressed, Emo shit he's been saying, I don't think he just started all this for lulz. This isn't DBZ, the final villain is not going to be some evil bastard who wants to do shit for the hell of it.



Easley said:


> Basically, if it wasn't for Kishi's Uchiha fixation, I'd be sure that Tobi is someone else. Tobi = Madara was a good twist, Tobi = another Uchiha would just be boring.


Well, it really depends who it is IMO. Besides, who the hell could Tobi be who's not an Uchiha? There's no way he'll just be some random character after all of this suspense. And, how was Tobi being Madara a good twist? Even after the big "reveal", he still had that damn mask on 24/7. It didn't really make sense for him to be Madara and would have been anti-climactic if that mask came off to reveal the wrinkled face of the person he had been claiming to be.



MissinqNin said:


> >Implying Kishi even intends to give us hints
> 
> He is a jammy whore when it comes to Tobi


So freakin' true, it hurts.


----------



## Easley (Jun 19, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> And, how was Tobi being Madara a good twist? Even after the big "reveal", he still had that damn mask on 24/7. It didn't really make sense for him to be Madara and would have been anti-climactic if that mask came off to reveal the wrinkled face of the person he had been claiming to be.


At the time it was a great twist. That entire scene, in fact. Pain, Konan, and the lightning when Tobi announced himself as Madara. Until that point Tobi was considered a comic relief character, but he's actually the mastermind? wow. 

When the spoilers came out most people thought they were bullshit. Even the close-up sharingan pic was called fake. I still think it's the greatest reveal in the manga. 

In my opinion, Kishi changed his mind. When you reread certain chapters everything points to Tobi being Madara. And not just to fool the readers. Chapter 370 for example. Jiraiya thinks Kyuubi was deliberately summoned to attack Konoha 16 years ago, and states that _only_ Madara has done this. The problem is that Madara is "dead", but Jiraiya has a bad feeling as the scene cuts to Tobi sitting on Madara's statue. A blatant clue that Tobi and Madara are the same person.

Well, that's history now. Kishi needed another twist to confuse everyone and put Tobi's identity back to square one. We're no wiser about this guy than his first appearance in chapter 280.


----------



## MinatoEMS (Jun 19, 2012)

Nadroj said:


> Also, for those in favor of the Madara Clone theory:
> Tobi gives a little history lesson about the Sage of Six Paths. We find that Izanagi creats form from nothing with the power of Yin and breathed life into that form with the power of Yang. So, Madara fakes his own death with Izanagi and loses an eye. With the power of both Uchiha and Senju, Madara become the second Sage. With the sage's power he's able to create a clone of himself (Tobi) to bring himself back to life after he dies. Or something like that.
> 
> I don't necessarily support it, but I'm trying to toss in as much as I can.



Wrong ability, the manga translations you posted were mistranslation. Banbutsu Sōzō is actually sage of six paths creation of all things jutsu, which allowed him to use the yin and yang to create physical form and life.


----------



## NW (Jun 19, 2012)

Easley said:


> In my opinion, Kishi changed his mind. When you reread certain chapters everything points to Tobi being Madara. And not just to fool the readers. Chapter 370 for example. Jiraiya thinks Kyuubi was deliberately summoned to attack Konoha 16 years ago, and states that _only_ Madara has done this. The problem is that Madara is "dead", but Jiraiya has a bad feeling as the scene cuts to Tobi sitting on Madara's statue. A blatant clue that Tobi and Madara are the same person.
> 
> Well, that's history now. Kishi needed another twist to confuse everyone and put Tobi's identity back to square one. We're no wiser about this guy than his first appearance in chapter 280.


They point to Tobi being Madara because that's what we were supposed to think. He was never actually intended to be Madara. Stuff pointed to him being Madara because we were supposed tobelieve that. We won't know _why_ he can do this shit until the reveal. There's no way that Kishi ever just _changed_ Tobi's identity.


----------



## Easley (Jun 19, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> They point to Tobi being Madara because that's what we were supposed to think. He was never actually intended to be Madara. Stuff pointed to him being Madara because we were supposed tobelieve that. We won't know _why_ he can do this shit until the reveal. There's no way that Kishi ever just _changed_ Tobi's identity.


I'd accept that Tobi was never intended to be Madara, if he didn't perform feats only he is capable of. Jiraiya had good reason to suspect his involvement (chapter 370). Minato came to the same conclusion while fighting the masked man. Madara being "dead" is the problem.

Writers change stuff all the time - the readers are just never told. A masked guy is perfect. You could argue that 'goofy' Tobi was indeed a different character, then Kishi decided to make him the mastermind. It's a cool twist, but some people find the personality change unbelievable.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 19, 2012)

I really don't care who Tobi is now. And that is what Kishimoto's plan is probably. To bore people out playing the guessing game, to the point they just don't care who it is any more, and want answers like a desperate butthurt Sasuke.

datkishi is such a stingy bugger.


----------



## DUNGEON (Jun 19, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I really don't care who Tobi is now. And that is what Kishimoto's plan is probably. To bore people out playing the guessing game, to the point they just don't care who it is any more, and want answers like a desperate butthurt Sasuke.
> 
> datkishi is such a stingy bugger.



Agreed!
I am so fuckin tired of this that i dont even care who he is.The only thing that can surprise me now is if he turns out to be monkey D luffy!!


----------



## jacamo (Jun 19, 2012)

this is how its going to go down 

(Mask breaks/removed)

Naruto/Gai - "Who the hell..." 

Bee - "YO!!!"

Kakashi - "No, it cant be.... Obito?!?" 

Tobi - "DONT MENTION MY SONS NAME IN FRONT OF ME!!!" 

Kakashi - "So thats who you are" 



MissinqNin said:


> I really don't care who Tobi is now. And that is what Kishimoto's plan is probably. To bore people out playing the guessing game, to the point they just don't care who it is any more, and want answers like a desperate butthurt Sasuke.
> 
> datkishi is such a stingy bugger.





DUNGEON said:


> Agreed!
> I am so fuckin tired of this that i dont even care who he is.The only thing that can surprise me now is if he turns out to be monkey D luffy!!



people that dont dwell on these forums still love to discuss it

we have just argued ourselves to death


----------



## Shaz (Jun 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> people that dont dwell on these forums still love to discuss it
> 
> we have just argued ourselves to death




Because it is inevitable. We can never avoid Kishi's foreplay with Tobi. He is fapping as we speak, as he is the only one who knows the details.


----------



## NW (Jun 19, 2012)

Easley said:


> I'd accept that Tobi was never intended to be Madara, if he didn't perform feats only he is capable of. Jiraiya had good reason to suspect his involvement (chapter 370). Minato came to the same conclusion while fighting the masked man. Madara being "dead" is the problem.
> 
> Writers change stuff all the time - the readers are just never told. A masked guy is perfect. You could argue that 'goofy' Tobi was indeed a different character, then Kishi decided to make him the mastermind. It's a cool twist, but some people find the personality change unbelievable.


Well, Tobi's not Madara, yet he can still perform those feats. So, if Kishi could have come up with an explanation later on, I'm sure that he could have come up with them at Tobi's introduction. Besides, we know for sure that Tobi was always intended to be a serious, major villain. Back in Part I, Itachi tells Sasuke in a flashback about a third Mangekyo user. This implies that Tobi had already existed in Kishi's mind at the time. So all along the whole 'goofy' thing was intended by Kishi as an act. Kishi does things for a reason. The mask, the act. I'm sure that he designed all these things for one character, and ONE character specifically. It's only a matter of figuring out who he is. Kishi had to have his identity set from the start. Since he's already dropped a bunch of hints for different characters to throw us off. I'm sure that Kishi had a certain character set for the origin of tobi's powers to originate from. It would be the biggest asspull ever and horrible writing for him to suddenly change his identity and have to come up with some random-ass way for him to have those powers. You see what i mean? If Kishi changed Tobi, then the new chosen identity would have a difficult time fitting in the way the original choice did. It's not wise for Kishimoto to do something like this. Mask or not, Tobi is a character in this series, not an identity changing machine. He just happens to wear a mask and be hiding who he really is.

So, yeah. Hopefully, you can take this into consideration.


----------



## 4ghost (Jun 19, 2012)

Don't know if it was mentioned already, but I'll put my Tobi theory here to have it documented. I think Tobi is Obito's older brother, or some other close relative. Tobi has one EMS eye because he gained it from his brother's body. He blamed Minato and good team for Obito's death. I believe he is responsible for Rin's death. Come to think of it that would be a lot like Sasuke. One brother going so fast as to sacrifice their life for someone while the other brother for a out of their easy to seek revenge on that which their deceased brother cherished.

Because of his hate for the village he easily fell victim to Madara's MS jutsu. That jutsu allows gim to implant his will/hate into another person. A jutsu similar to Shisui's, which is what allows his will to continue on for so long. 

Tobi was able to escape suspicion since his real identity is presumed dead, thanks to Madara and Zetsu.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jun 19, 2012)

Easley said:


> In my opinion, Kishi changed his mind. When you reread certain chapters everything points to Tobi being Madara. And not just to fool the readers. Chapter 370 for example. Jiraiya thinks Kyuubi was deliberately summoned to attack Konoha 16 years ago, and states that _only_ Madara has done this. The problem is that Madara is "dead", but Jiraiya has a bad feeling as the scene cuts to Tobi sitting on Madara's statue. A blatant clue that Tobi and Madara are the same person.
> 
> Well, that's history now. Kishi needed another twist to confuse everyone and put Tobi's identity back to square one. We're no wiser about this guy than his first appearance in chapter 280.



You can think what you want but this is just wrong.

Ever since the "reveal", there have been a million hints that Tobi wasn't who he said he was, not the least of which being the fact that he continued to wear a mask.

Plenty of people predicted, correctly, that Tobi was lying about being Madara.



Easley said:


> I'd accept that Tobi was never intended to be Madara, if he didn't perform feats only he is capable of. Jiraiya had good reason to suspect his involvement (chapter 370). Minato came to the same conclusion while fighting the masked man. Madara being "dead" is the problem.



Except they aren't feats that "only" Madara can do, that was just what people like Minato and Jiraiya assumed, which is why Tobi's ruse worked so well.


----------



## NW (Jun 19, 2012)

At this point, I'm pretty sure that Tobi is Obito. Going with the way Kishi is writing this manga and the themes he uses for his villains, Obito would make the most sense as FV. Especially since he was an EXACT parallel to Naruto. As for his motive. Idk. Although, that is a good thing that people can't come up with his motive. Because if Tobi is revealed as obito, people will wonder why he's doing all this. Then his motive and backstory can be explained. None of this Izanami or Koto or any type of jutsu shit. That's anticlimactic and doesn't make for a deep final villain. if Tobi is Obito, I'm sure that he's doing this of his own free will.


----------



## Talis (Jun 19, 2012)

4ghost said:


> Don't know if it was mentioned already, but I'll put my Tobi theory here to have it documented. I think Tobi is Obito's older brother, or some other close relative. Tobi has one EMS eye because he gained it from his brother's body. He blamed Minato and good team for Obito's death. I believe he is responsible for Rin's death. Come to think of it that would be a lot like Sasuke. One brother going so fast as to sacrifice their life for someone while the other brother for a out of their easy to seek revenge on that which their deceased brother cherished.
> 
> Because of his hate for the village he easily fell victim to Madara's MS jutsu. That jutsu allows gim to implant his will/hate into another person. A jutsu similar to Shisui's, which is what allows his will to continue on for so long.
> 
> Tobi was able to escape suspicion since his real identity is presumed dead, thanks to Madara and Zetsu.


lol, first we discovered a Madara's son and now an Obito's brother?


----------



## Easley (Jun 19, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> You can think what you want but this is just wrong.
> 
> Ever since the "reveal", there have been a million hints that Tobi wasn't who he said he was, not the least of which being the fact that he continued to wear a mask.
> 
> Plenty of people predicted, correctly, that Tobi was lying about being Madara.


It isn't "wrong" because there's no proof either way. At worst it's speculation on my part. Writers often change key story elements that don't work. That's the whole point of drafts, but a weekly manga is on a tight schedule so changes can seem forced. Kishi wouldn't be the first person to rewrite things. That sixth coffin crap seemed to come out of nowhere - it's like he wrote it on the spot. And to add insult to injury, Kishi still didn't reveal Tobi's identity even after Madara was revealed.

Whether Kishi changed his mind or not, it was a mistake to ruin such a great moment. Tobi = Madara was stunning because Tobi was almost a joke character. It reminded me of the Usual Suspects.



> Except they aren't feats that "only" Madara can do, that was just what people like Minato and Jiraiya assumed, which is why Tobi's ruse worked so well.


Sure, but why does Madara immediately come to mind? It isn't just one aspect, but a combination of abilities that few people except Madara possess. Who else can do all these things? No one we know of - and definitely not Obito.


----------



## Talis (Jun 19, 2012)

Easley said:


> Sure, but why does Madara immediately come to mind? It isn't just one aspect, but a combination of abilities that few people except Madara possess. Who else can do all these things? No one we know of - and definitely not Obito.


And thats exactly why it makes Obito a perfect candidate for a masked mans identity as longas Kishi keeps giving us hints like this;


----------



## Escargon (Jun 19, 2012)

Im just guessing numbers here but:

Nagato is propably 40-45. I am not sure but..

Kakashi is 29-30 right?

Wouldnt Obito be around 26-30 if he still lived today?

Madara activates Rinnegan. He comes up with a plan with Tobi and gives it to baby Nagato.

Madara died shortly after activating Rinnegan.

Nagato got Rinnegan around 40 years ago, 10 years before Kakashi was born.

A perfect age for a shinobi to carry on the plan is around 15-20 at youngest.

So Obito would be minus aged around that time. Makes sense.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 19, 2012)

I really hope the next chapter is on Tobi's fight. Perhaps we'll receive more clues.

It is funny how during this time/day, the forum is pretty quiet, in wait for the next chapter.


----------



## emmy-lou (Jun 19, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I really hope the next chapter is on Tobi's fight. Perhaps we'll receive more clues.
> 
> It is funny how during this time/day, the forum is pretty quiet, in wait for the next chapter.



I guess. As much as I'd like to know who it is, I think that if Kishi knows what he's doing, he'd be trying to tie as many loose ends as possible around Tobi's real identity. It might be "long time coming" type of thing. 

I'm open to theories, though. There are so pretty half-decent ones on this thread. I hadn't visited this thread before, but I should more often.

In the meanwhile, as long as I don't _know_ who Tobi really is, this is what I'll think.


*Spoiler*: __ 



​


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jun 19, 2012)

Easley said:


> Sure, but why does Madara immediately come to mind? It isn't just one aspect, but a combination of abilities that few people except Madara possess. Who else can do all these things? No one we know of - and definitely not Obito.



It's still an assumption.

Just because Madara was the only one to do these things does not mean Madara was the only one _capable_ of doing them.

The thing he was most well known for, controlling the Kyuubi, can be done by any Uchiha who possesses a Mangekyo Sharingan. And, oddly enough, Obito had such potential.

Jiraiya made his conclusion out of ignorance, and Minato was never sure of his.

In fact, if you pay attention, you can see that Tobi probably came up with the idea of pretending to be Madara after Minato asked if that was who he was.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 19, 2012)

wait.... i thought Itachi was supposed to meet Madara so they could recognise each other

 @ Itachi being released as an Edo Tensei


----------



## alienworkshopguy (Jun 19, 2012)

Tobi has to be someone at least 10-15 years older than Nagato since he said Nagato's Rinnengan was his originally. Unless you accept the idea that tobi is just using a younger body and his mind/soul is the part of him thats old. Meaning his body could very well be Obito or Kagami Uchiha BUT his mind is much older such as Izuna, Uchiha ancestor or....Jyuubis' will/soul!!!


----------



## jacamo (Jun 19, 2012)

alienworkshopguy said:


> Tobi has to be someone at least 10-15 years older than Nagato since he said Nagato's Rinnengan was his originally.



which makes it utterly impossible for it to be Obito



> Unless you accept the idea that tobi is just using a younger body and his mind/soul is the part of him thats old. Meaning his body could very well be Obito or Kagami Uchiha BUT his mind is much older such as Izuna, Uchiha ancestor or....Jyuubis' will/soul!!!



i would accept it, Oro was using different bodies 

but Kagami is perfect in terms of timeline... he can tie in so many characters to his backstory/flashbacks - Madara, Hashirama, Tobirama, Hiruzen, Danzo, the Elders 

not to mention Obito being Kagami's son works perfectly in terms of age... we can assume Hiruzen and Kagami were similar in age, Hiruzen's son is Asuma who is therefore the same age as Kakashi/Obito


----------



## Rechar (Jun 20, 2012)

Tobi is actually...dun dun DUN! Orochimaru!

In his efforts to attain perfection and immortality, Orochimaru's constant experimentation led to his body and soul becoming split from each other. The soul continued as the Orochimaru we know today, constantly transferring itself into new bodies, however his body because the empty, soulless "nobody" we now know as Tobi.

Or something. :/


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 20, 2012)

That would be the worst ending ever. Orochimaru' character is sucked up! Noone wants to see him agains, expecially not under this mask.

But I am glad, that many of us accept the point, that Tobi could use some kind of Fushi Tensei to use Obito's body.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 20, 2012)

Im pretty sure Tobi is Madara in some way after reading c590..


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 20, 2012)

Why? Tobi hates the Uchiha as he says. Madara on the other hand is to damn focused on his name. He is proud to be an Uchiha.


----------



## Mateush (Jun 20, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Why? Tobi hates the Uchiha as he says. Madara on the other hand is to damn focused on his name. He is proud to be an Uchiha.





and this:



At least it seems as Tobi was talking the truth, since Madara said the same  thing about his brother. That explains a bit about why he hated the current Uchiha clan.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 20, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Why? Tobi hates the Uchiha as he says. Madara on the other hand is to damn focused on his name. He is proud to be an Uchiha.



Well.. is there any other Uchiha that could hate Uchiha so much


----------



## Talis (Jun 20, 2012)

lol, it seems like Itachi knew the current Tobi somehow, Itachi called the long haired masked man Madara while he knows Tobi also, we're almost there.
Damn, and Shisui seriously looks alike Obito.


----------



## son_michael (Jun 20, 2012)

Shisui will end up being related to obito, just watch.


----------



## Hossaim (Jun 20, 2012)

He's obviously of uchiha descent, that much is clear

*Fugaku Uchiha*
Is dead.

*Itachi Uchiha*
Timeline wouldn't make sense, is dead, has met tobi.

*Izuna Uchiha* 
If he found a way to still be alive, it's very possible he is Tobi.

*Madara Uchiha*
Proven to not be true

*Obito Uchiha*
Is dead, timeline makes no sense.

*Sasuke Uchiha*
Timeline makes no sense, has met Tobi

*Shisui Uchiha*
Timeline doesn't make sense, is probably dead.

*Uruchi Uchiha*
Is certainly Tobi. Nobody makes better sense.


----------



## NW (Jun 20, 2012)

*This chapter disproved all your shit!*



loool3 said:


> lol, it seems like Itachi knew the current Tobi somehow, Itachi called the long haired masked man Madara while he knows Tobi also, we're almost there.
> Damn, and Shisui seriously looks alike Obito.


Come on, man. Give it up. The long haired masked guy wasn't Madara. Itachi put set Amaterasu to go off at the site of TOBI'S SHARINGAN. Meaning that it had to have been Tobi at that time with Itachi. That masked guy also talked like Tobi, and not Madara, so I think it's settled.

the lowest panel at the bottom of the page

Plus, why would Madara need to wear a one-eye holed mask?

Not only that, but when he was shown controlling Yagura, his hands looked young, not old like Madara's would be. 

Plus, how does Shisui look like Obito?

Here's Shisui: the lowest panel at the bottom of the page

And Here's Obito: the lowest panel at the bottom of the page

They don't really look that alike. I'm not saying they can't be brothers(if that was what you were getting at), in fact i think there's a 92% chance that they're brothers, but they don't really look that alike.


----------



## Hossaim (Jun 20, 2012)

Has anyone here considered that Tobi was completely lying about Nagato? You can't really trust a word that comes out of Tobi's mouth. .


----------



## Talis (Jun 20, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Come on, man. Give it up. The long haired masked guy wasn't Madara. Itachi put set Amaterasu to go off at the site of TOBI'S SHARINGAN. Meaning that it had to have been Tobi at that time with Itachi. That masked guy also talked like Tobi, and not Madara, so I think it's settled.
> 
> the lowest panel at the bottom of the page
> 
> ...


Itachi clearly called that guy MADARA, theres no need to change that to Tobi.
Think about it.
''Itachi figured out whoever he was'', which means if he was Tobi he wouldn't call him Madara.

Even if you still resist, when do you think Itachi figured out that the guy wasn't Madara but ''Tobi''.
After his death?

Your blind if you don't resemble in Obito/Shisui in each other.


----------



## NW (Jun 20, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Itachi clearly called that guy MADARA, theres no need to change that to Tobi.
> Think about it.
> ''Itachi figured out whoever he was'', which means if he was Tobi he wouldn't call him Madara.
> 
> ...


All I see is a little resemblance in the eyes, and they're facial structure matches too. but that's about it.


----------



## Talis (Jun 20, 2012)

Their smiling is even the same lol.

Anyways why doesn't my reps increase anymore if someone reps lol, its like im getting 10-30 rep points each time only. xD


----------



## jacamo (Jun 21, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Anyways why doesn't my reps increase anymore if someone reps lol, its like im getting 10-30 rep points each time only. xD



oh dear

anyway, Itachi and Madara aint gona meet now, long haired Tobi is not Madara either... one by one your theorys are going down the drain :ho


----------



## Talis (Jun 21, 2012)

jacamo said:


> oh dear
> 
> anyway, Itachi and Madara aint gona meet now, long haired Tobi is not Madara either... one by one your theorys are going down the drain :ho


Hahaha, i don't know what your talking about lol but it's just getting more clear lol.
;

Itachi still called the long haired man MADARA right before he died  (Sasuke fight), now why the hell would he suddenly call him Tobi in his  edo form?

Simple; long haired guy = Madara.
Tobi= Tobi.

Itachi said even that ''Madara'' was patheticly alife as his shell of his former self state.

Don't forget Itachi figured out who the long haired guy was and whatever his motto was.
It's simply almost confirmed that Itachi knew about the long haired Madara creating Tobi.

It's not like Tobi told edo Itachi about his identity to Itachi.

Even if Itachi isn't going to meet Madara, then it will be Sasuke.
Madara: Your an Uchiha, i thought i killed them all, oh wait you couldn't be!? Sasuke? :ho


----------



## NW (Jun 21, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Hahaha, i don't know what your talking about lol but it's just getting more clear lol.
> ;
> 
> Itachi still called the long haired man MADARA right before he died  (Sasuke fight), now why the hell would he suddenly call him Tobi in his  edo form?
> ...


How would Sasuke meet Madara? Madara's gone now because Itachi stopped Edo Tensei.


----------



## Mateush (Jun 21, 2012)

I agree *loool3* on some parts. I still doubt if the long haired guy was original Madara, because by the timeline it seems as the original died while Nagato was child. Still it's possible, because for example Tobi called Konan "kid". 

On the Tobi part it should be obvious that Tobi probably was created or manipulated by Madara.


----------



## Talis (Jun 21, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> How would Sasuke meet Madara? Madara's gone now because Itachi stopped Edo Tensei.


He's to calm to dissapear, anything can happen since we don't know Madara's powers.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 21, 2012)

It _could_ be possible that Madara was alive as the "Long haired masked man". I'll tell you why I think it could be possible. 

Whilst reading, keep in consideration that Tobi has always been very manipulative, and uses _everybody_ to gain success in his plans.

Madara was alive as the long hair masked man, However not in his prime state, perhaps even resurrected by Tobi after his death after awakening the Rinnegan (In which Tobi took his Rinnegan and told him about his plan with Nagato). Madara did all the mind tricks and luring, which would shape Tobi's plan, whilst Tobi went and got his hands dirty, such as the attack on Konoha and the fight between him and Yondaime Hokage. 

When Akatsuki formed as Tobi wanted it to be, with Pain as the leader, the real Madara (Or what was left of him) was finished and died, knowing that he would later be resurrected into his prime form by Nagato.

Basically what I'm saying is that perhaps Madara partnered with Tobi as he knew Tobi had the brains and convincingness, whereas Madara has bronze and influence. When Madara died after awakening the Rinnegan, Tobi resurrected him and by doing so he weakened himself and which is why he called himself (A shell of his former self). Tobi then used Madara as influence to form Akatsuki and kill the Uchiha, and when it had be done, Tobi deceived Madara and told him he'd be resurrected by Nagato using the Rinnegan, and how the Bijuu would be collected to form a new Rikudou which could of possibly been said to be Madara by Tobi as a lie to get him to help him collect the Bijuu (Seeing that the real Madara may of gone to the Mizukage for this reason, the three tails and influential reasons to help Tobi form Akatsuki). However when the time came Tobi betrayed him, as he had used Nagato and the Akatsuki to penetrate the Shinobi world, and having his mooneye plan heard.

This is also why Kabuto talks about Madara's prime form. As he knew Tobi's promise with Madara, in resurrecting him in his prime form, but didn't. Thus Tobi was annoyed that Kabuto spoiled his plan of deceiving Madara, which can now become a potential threat to both the Alliance, and Tobi. Madara must of not told anyone about this, as he is a man of pride, and didn't want to be seen as relying on others to gain his strength, as he presumably did thing he'd achieve with Tobi. Thus he was shocked about Kabuto knowing such a thing.

Tobi also considers himself a nobody, thus he probably needed Madara himself and his identity later to have influence on the Shinobi world. Whilst doing this, Orochimaru had also found out something about this, as perhaps Madara was also an experiment in some cases with Tobi whilst Tobi also experimented on himself as he found it intriguing that Madara awoken the Rinnegan, and made Zetsu, and inspired by this was Orochimaru who wanted to do the same with Sasuke.

In doing this, Tobi is an exact opposite of Naruto. He deceives people, never keeps his promise, does not believe that Shinobi can change, and does not love or have friendship.

This is from my speculation, of what I think could typically happen after knowing how it has happened so far throughout the manga, and the nature of the manga's storyline. I do believe something similar to this will occur. 

I know it's a long stretch for some people to believe, however it is almost stupid to believe that he had a hair cut, physical appearances have remained consistent within the manga, with minor changes between time skip, and alterations in clothing. This manga just doesn't support such drastic changes in physical appearance. There was definitely manipulation involved in this, which could of resurrected Madara Uchiha in a weak form from his prime self. Perhaps Madara didn't even meet Tobi before he actually died, but was resurrected after Tobi stole his Rinnegan, and then was told the entire plan, and liked what he had heard, or at least not known of the plan before he died initially.

We know after all, Tobi is a genius.


----------



## Talis (Jun 21, 2012)

To add a more thing, Danzou knew about Madara as well, won't be surprised if he and Madara ganged on Shisui.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 21, 2012)

loool3 said:


> To add a more thing, Danzou knew about Madara as well, won't be surprised if he and Madara ganged on Shisui.




Sorry add to what?

Just confused.


----------



## Easley (Jun 21, 2012)

loool3 said:


> To add a more thing, Danzou knew about Madara as well, won't be surprised if he and Madara ganged on Shisui.


He thought Tobi was Madara.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 21, 2012)

I actually didn't believe in such a theory, as I underestimated Tobi. However if he is the total genius behind this plan which it does seem he is now, I believe it is possible for him to achieve such success through such levels of manipulation. Though my theory might not be pin point right, I do expect something similar to be in place, after recent speculations as a whole on the course of the manga up till now.

Just wonder how he got the co-operation of Madara, if he is an entity which isn't created by him. Surely through a deal, which obviously was left incomplete, which is why Madara has stated it hasn't been going according to plan, and why Tobi cursed Kabuto.​


----------



## Mateush (Jun 21, 2012)

I thought more about Tobi and Kurama. I'm kinda confused by this chapter: . Could that be a hint that Tobi somehow has EMS but we have yet seen it? Somehow Tobi didn't became blind, because he still has the same s/t jutsu which probably belongs to Tobi's right eye.


----------



## Talis (Jun 21, 2012)

So lets see.
4 Years old Itachi suffers from war.
5-10~ years old Shisui suffers from war.
Obito ''dies'' in the war.
Shisui awakens his MS. :ho


----------



## NW (Jun 21, 2012)

loool3 said:


> So lets see.
> 4 Years old Itachi suffers from war.
> 5-10~ years old Shisui suffers from war.
> Obito ''dies'' in the war.
> Shisui awakens his MS. :ho


You're on to something. I know it. It's the only logical way (that we currently know of) of explaining how Shisui got his MS.


----------



## wstickman (Jun 21, 2012)

Something that confuses me: who was the third Mangekyo Sharingan user Itachi spoke of? Madara was apparently dead, and Tobi hasn't used it yet.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jun 21, 2012)

wstickman said:


> Something that confuses me: who was the third Mangekyo Sharingan user Itachi spoke of? Madara was apparently dead, and Tobi hasn't used it yet.



Itachi was referring to Tobi when he said that.

Because Itachi believed Tobi was Madara, he also believed he had MS.

It's also possible Tobi does in fact have MS.


----------



## wstickman (Jun 21, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Itachi was referring to Tobi when he said that.
> 
> Because Itachi believed Tobi was Madara, he also believed he had MS.
> 
> It's also possible Tobi does in fact have MS.



Itachi called him Tobi once he was an Edo, wouldn't make sense if he thought Tobi = Madara. And yes, it is possible.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jun 21, 2012)

wstickman said:


> Itachi called him Tobi once he was an Edo, wouldn't make sense if he thought Tobi = Madara.



Ever since Tobi was revealed to _not_ be Madara, few characters have called him that.

The author is simply trying to reduce confusion by referring to Tobi as "The masked man" or "Tobi," _regardless of who says it_. 

Anyhow, before the real Madara was summoned, Itachi referred to Tobi as "Madara" a few times in the war. So, he certainly thinks that Tobi is Madara.


----------



## Easley (Jun 22, 2012)

Kishi has really fucked up with the short hair/long hair, Tobi/Madara naming shit. Maybe he's just trying to be clever, keeping a future twist under wraps. It's annoying though.

In my opinion, the mask wearing man has always been the same person. Long hair or short. If he isn't, Tobi's scene with Kisame makes no sense at all.

The long-haired man controlled Yagura, and calls himself "Uchiha Madara". Years later Tobi takes off his mask and Kisame instantly knows him as the same guy. Except he has short hair now. He even called him Mizukage before correcting himself; "I mean Madara".

Tobi might not be Madara, but he's definitely the same person Kisame saw. Or he looks exactly alike. Itachi also met this man before the massacre. 

This shit is way more confusing than it should be. Tobi changing masks didn't help either, but could be significant.


----------



## Hossaim (Jun 22, 2012)

Has anyone considered that Tobi just got a haircut?

Same guy throughout otherwise Kisame knowing him would make no sense.

It's gotta be Izuna imo.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jun 22, 2012)

You aren't wrong, the long haired masked man and the short haired masked man are the same person.

It is merely an aesthetic change, I don't know why people think it's significant.


----------



## Easley (Jun 22, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> You aren't wrong, the long haired masked man and the short haired masked man are the same person.
> 
> It is merely an aesthetic change, I don't know why people think it's significant.


An aesthetic change, sure, but his hair length changes with it. Short first (fighting Minato), then long (meeting Itachi), back to short wearing the new swirl mask. I'm not sure where Kisame/Yagura fits in the timeline.

Kishi has made this needlessly complex. It's like he wants people to think there's two masked guys - Tobi and Madara. I don't agree with loool3's theory but I see where he's coming from.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jun 22, 2012)

Easley said:


> An aesthetic change, sure, but his hair length changes with it. Short first (fighting Minato), then long (meeting Itachi), back to short wearing the new swirl mask. I'm not sure where Kisame/Yagura fits in the timeline.



After the Kyuubi attack but before the Uchiha Massacre, I think.



> Kishi has made this needlessly complex. It's like he wants people to think there's two masked guys - Tobi and Madara. I don't agree with loool3's theory but I see where he's coming from.



We know roughly when Madara died, and it was way before we first saw Tobi. You'd have to be intentionally ignoring manga canon to think it's possible that the masked man is more than one person.

I think the hair was just a way for Tobi to make his disguise more effective, by copying Madara's appearance.


----------



## Easley (Jun 22, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> We know roughly when Madara died, and it was way before we first saw Tobi. You'd have to be intentionally ignoring manga canon to think it's possible that the masked man is more than one person.
> 
> I think the hair was just a way for Tobi to make his disguise more effective, by copying Madara's appearance.


I agree, but Kishi can make anything fit if he wants. Madara isn't the only long-haired man in existence, so why did the characters assume this masked weirdo was him? If I were them I'd want proof. Kishi might have yet another twist for Tobi and Madara. I just get that feeling. Hair length isn't something I focus on but what's the point of these constant changes?

When people argued for Tobito they used hair similarity as proof - "mangakas never change hair" -- Tobi loves haircuts.


----------



## Hossaim (Jun 22, 2012)

*Evidence of Tobi being Izuna*
1. Madara said "This is something he would do"
This confirms that Madara knew Tobi. Not just somebody he met once, but somebody he knew well. 

2. Tobi said to Naruto "I see Hashirama in you"
This person must have also known Hashirama.

3. Tobi said when commenting on the Hashirama DNA "This is something I gained during our battle"
This means that Tobi must have battled with Hashirama. Izuna, being the younger brother of Madara, must have fought with him at least once when the Uchiha's and Senju's were fighting.

4. The Mask
It is very likely that after Madara took Izuna's eyes, Izuna had been epexcting something like that and had a backup eye taken from another uchiha. This would explain why there was no MS.


----------



## Undead (Jun 22, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> *Evidence of Tobi being Izuna*
> 1. Madara said "This is something he would do"
> This confirms that Madara knew Tobi. Not just somebody he met once, but somebody he knew well.
> 
> ...


I would like it if he ends up being Izuna. That would lead to giving us a long needed Tobirama flashback, that shows off his abilities in more detail.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 22, 2012)

Madara SAID Izuna died, Kishi is not going to resort to a cheap gimmick by saying Izuna died but then say "oh, no not really trolololol"... so no, it wont be Izuna

if we get Tobirama flashbacks they will come from Kagami (Tobi)


----------



## DUNGEON (Jun 22, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> *Evidence of Tobi being Izuna*
> 1. Madara said "This is something he would do"
> This confirms that Madara knew Tobi. Not just somebody he met once, but somebody he knew well.
> 
> ...


+1
I would be happy if he turns out to be Izuna.Izuna is something everyone would be scared of(even madara).


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jun 22, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> *Evidence of Tobi being Izuna*
> 1. Madara said "This is something he would do"
> This confirms that Madara knew Tobi. Not just somebody he met once, but somebody he knew well.
> 
> ...



Izuna was and arguably still is a strong possibility, but Madara seems to indicate that he died and stayed dead, and that the only thing he left behind were his eyes.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Jun 22, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> *Evidence of Tobi being Izuna*
> 1. Madara said "This is something he would do"
> This confirms that Madara knew Tobi. Not just somebody he met once, but somebody he knew well.
> 
> ...



1. Oh or he simple knew him, because Tobi is an Uchiha, like he is.
2. Oh maybe there were more than one person that knew Hashirama.
3. Or he simply lied, like he did when he said he was Madara.
4. Or he is the elder son, who took Obito with Fushi Tensei and Obito's corpse had only one eye.

I don't say, that it is impossible for Tobi to be Izuna, but it's not proofable.


----------



## Escargon (Jun 22, 2012)

Just wait till they show Sasuke the scroll of time traveling, Sasuke travels around trying to change things and ending up being Tobi.

And Tobi himself being Sasuke with Narutos half head implanted from the DNA he stole from baby Naruto.

That would be the ultimate trolling.

In all seriousness, i honestly think its Izuna anyways. See:

Madara said Izuna left his eye and its power. And Tobi said the eyes were his to begin with. It makes a connection. Tobi can be Izuna himself but with his power and eyes only?

Either its a Madara clone, Izuna or, funny enough, future Sasuke. All three hates Konoha. Well i have no evidence Izuna hates Konoha but maybe a backstory could cover that.


----------



## NW (Jun 22, 2012)

Alright, I've looked more into the Kagami theory and I think that it actually has more plausibility than I thought. Kagami is basically an unknown quantity right now. Since what we know about him is extremely limited, we are only left to make assumptions. For all we know, he could've been a very strong, respected, and feared shinobi. Who knows, maybe later on in his life, after he turned evil, he could've become feared by everyone for his strength and ambitions. Another thing is, didn't Nagato say that the Second Shinobi War was started by Konoha? Knowing Hiruzen, he would have done ANYTHING he could to prevent war from breaking out, considering how much of a peaceful person he was. It makes me think that maybe Kagami was somehow involved in the starting of that war. That's why no one talks about him, because he's better off erased and forgotten. ​
And, if you notice, most of the people from Tobirama's squad grew up to have high ranking positions withing Konoha. Danzo created ROOT, Koharu and Homura became advisers, and Hiruzen became Hokage. Now, the only members we don't know what became of, are Torifu Akimichi and _Kagami Uchiha_. Another significant thing is that we don't know whether Kagami is dead or alive. He's only presumed dead. So, I find it suspicious that Kishi chose to make him presumed dead and not give a cause of death. These things lead me to believe that he is still alive. Now, I think that Torifu isn't seen around today because maybe Kagami killed him.​

Also, Kagami fits theme-wise, too. We all know how Kishi is with names. A person's name in this manga is usually a strong descriptor of their character. Now, Kagami's name means "mirror". This could explain how Tobi was "mirroring" Madara. Besides, this is also a good explanation of why Tobi called himself "No One". A mirror just reflects other people's images, never having a true identity of its own. Since it's also possible that Kagami took Tobirama's name as "Tobi", and may have stolen Obito's eye, explaining his Space-Time Ninjutsu, in essence, he would be "mirroring" three different people, which would really make him "No One". This also further serves to make Naruto and Tobi polar opposites. Kagami doesn't care who he is, and believes he is No One, whereas Naruto originally wanted to be agnowledged as an actual person, and be _someone_, not just a demon fox.​

For those that argue that Kagami is a barely known character and the reveal would be anti-climactic, let me point one thing out for you. Tobi's identity has been hidden so long that, no matter what, it's probably going to be anti-climactic. Fans have pretty much debated the shit out of every possibility.​

Another reason that Tobi could be Kagami is how Tobi seemed to personally know Danzo and knew most of his jutsu, suggesting a link between the two. Kishi might be keeping information on Kagami hidden so we wouldn't suspect him, so if Tobi is revealed as Kagami, then it will create an "Oooohhh, so _that's_ how he knew Danzo" effect on the readers. Kagami seems like one of those characters that someone easily forgets but a little tap can make someone remember him. In this case, if Tobi is revealed to be Kagami, the readers will most likely start to remember him. And if they don't remember him by face or name, once it's revealed he was on Danzo's team, that should jog their memory.​

Besides, Kishi has already been giving us lots of clues that Tobi could be Kagami, but he hasn't made them too obvious because he doesn't want us to suspect him too much.​

Overall, I think this is one of the most plausible theories. There is other evidence as well, but I felt that this was the most significant. I would really like for Tobi to be Obito, however, if it DID turn out to be Kagami, I wouldn't be dissapointed.​


----------



## Yoroi Mitarashi (Jun 22, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why would Kisame know Kagami? Tobi showed his face to Kisame and he recognized who he was.


----------



## NW (Jun 22, 2012)

Yoroi Mitarashi said:


> Why would Kisame know Kagami? Tobi showed his face to Kisame and he recognized who he was.


Well, we don't know much about Kagami, so we don't know much about whether he would know Kisame or not. Besides, Kisame recognized obi as the person controlling the Fourth Mizukage, it wasn't as if he knew him personally.


----------



## Easley (Jun 22, 2012)

Kagami is the right age at least. I just don't believe Tobi is a young guy, not with his knowledge and experience. The way he commented on Sasuke's fight with Danzo seemed personal, like he's from the same generation.

Being an "unknown quantity" might be a detriment, it depends how his backstory is handled. All the Uchiha have pros and cons, some more than others. None of them would surprise me except for Future Sasuke! 

If Tobi is not an Uchiha I'd actually applaud Kishi. I'm not optimistic though. He loves that clan more than his own family.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 22, 2012)

We only know that Kagami would of known people from Team Tobirama, and perhaps a few Uchiha. Yet the only one he had a direct involvement in murdering was Danzo, if he is Kagami.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jun 22, 2012)

Let me explain why Tobi can't be Kagami or Setsuna:

That would yield no shock or drama at all. Nobody would know or care who he is. It would make the removal of Tobi's mask --the most anticipated event of the series-- meaningless and boring.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 22, 2012)

The only people I see left which could be decent in plot and climactic, are:

- Obito
- Izuna

I believe the "Madara Clone" is not real, in fact, at most I believe Tobi is using a part of Madara, such as an implantation to be stronger, but not an actual clone.

The other thing which Tobi has said, which is now very popular amongst fans is; "I am a shell of my former self". What does this mean? It means he is physically the same in appearance and body as his "Old" self, however a completely different being in his mentality. This also invalidates the clone theory, as he had no old self before his creation. This supports Obito being if he is the masked man, he has changed, perhaps even a vessel for the likes of someone like Izuna.

Everyone else that offers no shock to readers, will never be used. You should know this if you have ever read stories, or have ever shed daylight upon yourselves. Realistically speaking, we've all had our brains rattled sometime or another about Tobi, thus things which will never be possible come to mind and seem feasible. Remain logical.

I was convinced at one point it was Kagami, however being there are no plot holes does not validate it as Tobi as there are assumptions rather than hints. Remembering assumptions made by fans and hints from the Manga itself are two different things.


----------



## NW (Jun 22, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> The only people I see left which could be decent in plot and climactic, are:
> 
> - Obito
> - Izuna
> ...


......holy shit. You, sir, are the ultimate badass.

To be honest. I was only trying to believe in the Kagami theory. I still am a strong believer in the Obito theory. I guess If it was Kagami, Kishi would have given more hints. Also, about the shell part. Obito may have been referring to himself like that because, his body got damaged by the boulder and therefore needed Zetsu goo to replace it. So, he's just a fraction of what he used to be.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jun 22, 2012)

Personally I think the "shell" comment was just something he said to throw off suspicion about why he wasn't nearly as powerful as the original Madara.


----------



## NW (Jun 22, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Personally I think the "shell" comment was just something he said to throw off suspicion about why he wasn't nearly as powerful as the original Madara.


Well, it's certainly possible, but I doubt it.


----------



## Easley (Jun 23, 2012)

It's impossible to figure out Tobi's identity using manga "facts" because they can all be twisted to fit your desired theory. Actual proof is nonexistent. Kishi could just turn around and make Tobi someone completely unexpected, that's the benefit of a mask. 

Tobi being a known liar is the real problem. When you can't trust anything a character says, reaching a conclusion is difficult. Is he even an Uchiha? Well, he said so, and has a sharingan - but he also claimed to be Madara. It'll be ironic if that is partly true.

I haven't ruled out anyone. Look at the backstory he created for Nagato just to try and make sense of Pain and his 6 bodies, and they were unknown at that point. I'm starting to think that Tobi has been in plain sight the whole time. Why is he so keen to hide his identity even after Madara was revealed? Sure, it's for the readers, but I believe this revelation will be a huge shock for the characters - almost a betrayal. The unmasking _might_ live up to expectations in that case. 

Will the others arrive at Tobi's location before the mask comes off? If so, he's probably someone well known.


----------



## Hossaim (Jun 23, 2012)

Easley said:


> It's impossible to figure out Tobi's identity using manga "facts" because they can all be twisted to fit your desired theory. Actual proof is nonexistent. Kishi could just turn around and make Tobi someone completely unexpected, that's the benefit of a mask.
> 
> Tobi being a known liar is the real problem. When you can't trust anything a character says, reaching a conclusion is difficult. Is he even an Uchiha? Well, he said so, and has a sharingan - but he also claimed to be Madara. It'll be ironic if that is partly true.
> 
> ...



inb4 Tobi is Kakashi.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 23, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Let me explain why Tobi can't be Kagami or Setsuna:



Let me explain why it can be Kagami



shintebukuro said:


> That would yield no shock or drama at all.



the Tobi reveal doesnt necessarily have to yield shock or drama, people keep saying that it has to but it doesnt... besides, i know plenty of people who would definitely be shocked if Tobi = Kagami because he has appeared in less than 5 panels



shintebukuro said:


> Nobody would know or care who he is. It would make the removal of Tobi's mask --the most anticipated event of the series-- meaningless and boring.



"meaningless and boring" is your opinion, it has no bearing on the outcome

if Tobi = Kagami, it would be the opposite of meaningless... on top of the Madara flashbacks, we could possibly get flashbacks with Hiruzen, Danzo, the Elders, maybe even Hashirama... the potential information/historical reveal is off the charts with Kagami



MissinqNin said:


> I was convinced at one point it was Kagami, however being there are no plot holes does not validate it as Tobi as there are assumptions rather than hints. Remembering assumptions made by fans and hints from the Manga itself are two different things.



thats all the Tobito stuff is, assumptions and hints


----------



## Shaz (Jun 23, 2012)

jacamo said:


> thats all the Tobito stuff is, assumptions and hints




Some are. However the Kagami theory is all assumption, based on we only saw the guy in a panel. 

You need a character story for some hints. Continue looking, however don't be surprised if it isn't him.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jun 23, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> the Tobi reveal doesnt necessarily have to yield shock or drama, people keep saying that it has to but it doesnt... besides, i know plenty of people who would definitely be shocked if Tobi = Kagami because he has appeared in less than 5 panels



Tobi taking off his mask will be probably the most important thing to happen in the manga. It will begin an avalanche of information regarding his plot, his powers, his relation to Madara, his actions regarding Konoha and Sasuke, how/why he gave Nagato the Rinnegan, how Madara survived against Hashirama, etc etc

If he takes off his mask and he's some guy that 90% of fans won't recognize, that's not a good reason to have the guy wear a mask for hundreds of chapters. The author will have failed at making the mystery of his identity on par with the mystery of his powers/plans.

His identity will basically be glossed over in favor of the rest of his plot, which would be 10x more interesting.



> "meaningless and boring" is your opinion, it has no bearing on the outcome



No bearing on the outcome?

This manga is a business. The author cannot make the final villain take off his mask --*easily the biggest reveal in the manga, blowing away chapters 400 and 500*-- and have the guy be a character that nobody _in the world_ gives 2 fucks about.

This is the author's chance to blow everyone away with this big reveal...and you think it'll be a character that most people won't even recognize? I'm a _huge_ Naruto fan and I don't think _I_ would recognize Uchiha Kagami right away.

Do you understand that Kishimoto has to meet with executives and editors and tons of people before he releases every single chapter? He has to check with them to make sure they think the storyline is good and that the fans will like it. If he were going to reveal Tobi's identity in chapter 600, and walked into the meeting and it was fucking Uchiha Kagami, they'd look at him like he was retarded.



> if Tobi = Kagami, it would be the opposite of meaningless... on top of the Madara flashbacks, we could possibly get flashbacks with Hiruzen, Danzo, the Elders, maybe even Hashirama... the potential information/historical reveal is off the charts with Kagami



Look, don't you realize that we're going to have chapters upon chapters of information with the reveal anyway?

Kagami being Tobi doesn't yield any more info than anybody else being him because most of the info we're going to get does not depend on who is Tobi _is_, but simply on the fact he will disclose info:

-What are Tobi's powers, and why have they been kept secret for so long?
-Why is Tobi made of Zetsu goo, and who and what is Zetsu?
-How did Madara survive when everyone thought he was dead? What had he been doing for the decades and decades he was around for?
-How did Tobi give Nagato the Rinnegan, and why?
-How did Madara/Tobi control the 4th Mizukage, and why?
-Why did Tobi attack Konoha with Kyuubi?
-Why does Tobi need Sasuke for his plan?
-Why does Tobi stockpile so many Sharingans?
-Where did Gedou Mazou come from?

These are all questions that don't necessarily need a relation to Tobi's identity. 

Extra info on Konoha history could easily be replaced by Kakashi backstory regarding his MS and Rin, and how his MS ability is tied to Tobi's S/T jutsu.

His identity needs only be shocking because the rest of his story will be insane enough.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 23, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Tobi taking off his mask will be probably the most important thing to happen in the manga. It will begin an avalanche of information regarding his plot, his powers, his relation to Madara, his actions regarding Konoha and Sasuke, how/why he gave Nagato the Rinnegan, how Madara survived against Hashirama, etc etc
> 
> If he takes off his mask and he's some guy that 90% of fans won't recognize, that's not a good reason to have the guy wear a mask for hundreds of chapters. The author will have failed at making the mystery of his identity on par with the mystery of his powers/plans.
> 
> ...



again, youre assuming Tobi's identity reveal (by itself) has to be "big", that is has to shock the readers, when it doesnt have to be that way at all... i dont even think that avenue is possible at this point, assuming he IS IN FACT Uchiha

i agree that *"His identity will basically be glossed over in favor of the rest of his plot, which would be 10x more interesting." * 

this is why i think Tobi's actual identity (by itself) doesnt have to provide the shock factor... backstory, flashbacks and future plot will take care of that


----------



## DUNGEON (Jun 23, 2012)

I dont know who tobi is but i know one thing for a certain that we will all be deceived in the end. Kishi PWNS.


----------



## Easley (Jun 23, 2012)

It's understandable that people expect a shocking reveal. Kishi made Tobi's identity into this huge mystery. If the mask comes off and he's barely known, or a "nobody",  I'd be very disappointed. An anti-climax, fuck-up, whatever you want to call it.

In the end, I'll be satisfied if it just shocks the characters. That's where most of the drama will be - their reaction. If he's not well-known it's going to rely on backstory, like Nagato/Pain. 

I bet Kishi is laughing his ass off.


----------



## †obitobi (Jun 24, 2012)

jacamo said:


> thats all the Tobito stuff is, assumptions and hints



As opposed to a guy that basically only has the fact that you want for him to be Tobi as evidence?

Why Kagami and not any of the men from Tobi's story to Sasuke about Madara's relationship with Konoha?

And where is it stated that Nagato's eyes are Madara's eyes? Madara didn't even care that he could see after he was resurrected, which indicates that he planned on having his eyes once revived by Nagato = his eyes are his own = evidence for Obito as Tobi.


----------



## Max Thunder (Jun 24, 2012)

*Tobi, like Amon...*


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Could turn out to be... a new FUCKING character


----------



## Namikaze Minato (Jun 24, 2012)

No , he's a character we know , and i dont think he's an Uchiha from how the Sharingan is always activated.


----------



## Maerala (Jun 24, 2012)

How _dare_ you compare Kishi to Bryke!


----------



## Max Thunder (Jun 24, 2012)

Namikaze Minato said:


> No , he's a character we know , and i dont think he's an Uchiha from how the Sharingan is always activated.



Itachi's Sharingan was always activated in his adulthood...


----------



## Golden Circle (Jun 24, 2012)

Who's Amon?

/hipster


----------



## Mantux31 (Jun 24, 2012)

I wouldn't be surprised


----------



## Shaz (Jun 24, 2012)

Don't compare Naruto to some foddering series. I mean Aang's series was so many times better than Korra's, it could just knock it out of existence.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 24, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> And where is it stated that Nagato's eyes are Madara's eyes? Madara didn't even care that he could see after he was resurrected, which indicates that he planned on having his eyes once revived by Nagato = his eyes are his own = evidence for Obito as Tobi.



Just to say something here. His eyes regenerated due to Edo Tensei if your talking about that. 

Moving on; I believe if he had been revived by Nagato, they would of finished him off and took back the eyes. This is a clue as Tobi says he gave Nagato his eyes, whilst impersonating Madara Uchiha. Furthermore Madara knew about the revival plan and Nagato, thus Tobi would of been the middle man to give the Rinnegan to Nagato. This is the closest clue we have, thus it makes it currently stronger than the hypothesis you have stated.

However to my belief, Tobi deceived Madara Uchiha himself, and wasn't planning on reviving him, but used Nagato for himself to gain Bijuu, and when the time came, he took the eyes for himself with no intentions of reviving Madara Uchiha.


----------



## Tenyume Kasumi (Jun 24, 2012)

And Amon would be...?


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Jun 24, 2012)

More like Amon is like Tobi 

Perhaps. I did do the comparison when I first saw Amon and heard of his goals. If they are just alike then Amon might end of being an Uzumaki who wants to cleanse the world of Shinobi.

And for those who dont know Amon was the season 1 villain from Legend of Korra. The sequel to Avatar the Last Airbender:


----------



## Tenyume Kasumi (Jun 24, 2012)

So... He's basically the Avatar version of Mystery Masked Man? Thanks!

All the same, I hope Tobi is a character we already know. It will make his reveal (if there is one all the more impactful.


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Jun 24, 2012)

Tenyume Kasumi said:


> So... He's basically the Avatar version of Mystery Masked Man? Thanks!
> 
> All the same, I hope Tobi is a character we already know. It will make his reveal (if there is one all the more impactful.



Not a mystery anymore but yeah he was. He just got defeated and turned out to be one of the villains *brother*


----------



## Harbour (Jun 24, 2012)

I pretty sure, that Tobi is the character which we already see or heard about.
Amon is an example of bad scenary writing. Instead of giving few pretendents on this role and intrigue, which of them is villain creators hide so important fact that there was other son of Yakon until the end, so people could not guess who is Amon at all desire.


----------



## hannah (Jun 24, 2012)

I don't know, could be. But there is nothing to indicate either theory. So Aman existing or not, it is still just as any other theory.


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (Jun 24, 2012)

no


----------



## Turrin (Jun 24, 2012)

Don't compare Naruto/Tobi to LOK/Amon, LOK/Amon are far superior.


----------



## Sasuke (Jun 24, 2012)

Please, do not compare legendary Uchiha to shitty Nickelodeon cartoon characters.


----------



## Klue (Jun 24, 2012)

Sasuke said:


> Please, do not compare legendary Uchiha to shitty Nickelodeon cartoon characters.



Kill yourself. Right now!


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Jun 24, 2012)

Sasuke said:


> Please, do not compare legendary Uchiha to shitty Nickelodeon cartoon characters.


this. naruto has its faults, but korra was awful. i expect tobi to be no one or just a determined uchiha.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jun 24, 2012)

Well, Sasuke did doubt it quite a bit when he first heard he was Madara, and there are not many possible age-fitting characters . . .


. . . But, then again, Itachi must have called him Madara for a good reason.


We'll have to wait and see.





Oh, and this:


Sasuke said:


> Please, do not compare legendary Uchiha to shitty Nickelodeon cartoon characters.


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Jun 24, 2012)

Sasuke said:


> Please, do not compare legendary Uchiha to shitty Nickelodeon cartoon characters.





cbark42 said:


> this. naruto has its faults, but korra was awful. i expect tobi to be no one or just a determined uchiha.





Hiko Seijurou said:


> Well, Sasuke did doubt it quite a bit when he first heard he was Madara, and there are not many possible age-fitting characters . . .
> 
> 
> . . . But, then again, Itachi must have called him Madara for a good reason.
> ...



Have you guys even watched LoK? If you have I dont see how you could dislike it. I'll admit I was against a female main character and a modern day verse at first but after watching a few episodes I was hooked. 

And as for character comparison LoK characters are more 3D than Naruto's 2D ones. If anything comparing the two makes LoK look bad not the other way around.


----------



## ShenLong Kazama (Jun 24, 2012)

Haters gonna hate.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Jun 24, 2012)

Valgaav said:


> Have you guys even watched LoK? If you have I dont see how you could dislike it. I'll admit I was against a female main character and a modern day verse at first but after watching a few episodes I was hooked.
> 
> And as for character comparison LoK characters are more 3D than Naruto's 2D ones. If anything comparing the two makes LoK look bad not the other way around.


you just called korra characters 3 dimensional..........lol. have _you_ ever watched LoK?


----------



## Mako (Jun 24, 2012)

Fandom wars.

LoK and Naruto have different plots. I don't think it would happen.


----------



## DelRappy (Jun 24, 2012)

Maybe he's the most obvious guy, like in some of the Gundam series, lol.


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Jun 24, 2012)

cbark42 said:


> you just called korra characters 3 dimensional..........lol. have _you_ ever watched LoK?



Actually I said when compared with Naruto characters. Which is true. Personalities in Naruto are as thin as the paper they're drawn on.


----------



## Talis (Jun 24, 2012)

Nope, even if he was a Madara clone, random character, he would have been revealed way before already.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 24, 2012)

It has to be someone we already know or have been introduced to. It's just Kishi's style.

I wish LoK was spread throughout longer seasons. Seems all crammed in.


----------



## Edward Newgate (Jun 24, 2012)

cbark42 said:


> you just called korra characters 3 dimensional..........lol. have _you_ ever watched LoK?


At the very least Amon is a better character than Tobi.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Jun 24, 2012)

Valgaav said:


> Actually I said when compared with Naruto characters. Which is true. Personalities in Naruto are as thin as the paper they're drawn on.


which characters in naruto are flat? surely you arent talking about any of the leads. even when you compare minor 'generals' like mifune and darui to iroh theres a huge difference in depth.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Jun 24, 2012)

Edward Newgate said:


> At the very least Amon is a better character than Tobi.


he was on par up till the big reveal. amon was more threatening but tobi's dialogue was much better. 'im the equalizer!' lol. bryke cant write decent dialogue to save their lives.


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2012)

Sasuke said:


> Please, do not compare legendary Uchiha to shitty Nickelodeon cartoon characters.



And that's why there are so many homicides in the world right now...


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Jun 24, 2012)

cbark42 said:


> which characters in naruto are flat? surely you arent talking about any of the leads. even when you compare minor 'generals' like mifune and darui to iroh theres a huge difference in depth.



Iroh>>>>>Darui and Mifune personality wise.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Jun 24, 2012)

iroh has no personality.


----------



## Harbour (Jun 24, 2012)

I love the Avatar universe, but speak the truth -  Iroh only the one character(maybe Roku and Lin Bei as well), who in terms of epicness, badassness, personality detalization can be compare with Naruto's second characters(Jiraya, Orochimaru, Danzo, Akatsuki for example). He is similar to Jiraya - wise, experienced and strong man with charisma and story.


----------



## Ghost (Jun 24, 2012)

Tobi >>>>>>>>> Amon


----------



## spankdatbitch (Jun 24, 2012)

Valgaav said:


> Not a mystery anymore but yeah he was. He just got defeated and t*urned out to be one of the villains brother *



Whereas perhaps Tobi will turn out to be Madara's brother? 
Will the similarities never end?

But at least I only had to wait about 2-3 months to find out who Amon was.As opposed to at notorius tease kishi who still hasn't shown Tobi's face even after about 5 freaking years


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 24, 2012)

Amon is Obito 100% PROOVED


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 24, 2012)

Harbour said:


> I love the Avatar universe, but speak the truth -  Iroh only the one character(maybe Roku and Lin Bei as well), who in terms of epicness, badassness, personality detalization can be compare with Naruto's second characters(Jiraya, Orochimaru, Danzo, Akatsuki for example). He is similar to Jiraya - wise, experienced and strong man with charisma and story.



Iroh is a hundred different kinds of more badass than Jiraiya.

And I don't even like Avatar.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jun 24, 2012)

This is turning into a NARUTO VS. Some cartoon thread




Valgaav said:


> Have you guys even watched LoK? If you have I dont see how you could dislike it.


It is not Japanese. Westerners don't take _anime_ seriously, and the voice-acting sucks balls.




Valgaav said:


> I'll admit I was against *a female main character* and a modern day verse at first but after watching a few episodes I was hooked.


Now I am even more turned off to watch it (too bad it's not _ecchi_, though). (I am embarrassed to have watched Brave recently.  )




Valgaav said:


> And as for character comparison LoK characters are more 3D than Naruto's 2D ones. If anything comparing the two makes LoK look bad not the other way around.


What determines the '_D-ness_'? Most of the important characters in NARUTO have had deep personalities and flashbacks. Look at Itachi, Nagato, Sasori, Neji. Sasuke, etc.

Also, this cartoon you speak of is not _nearly_ as popular as NARUTO, which sells millions upon millions and is one of the Big 3. How can comparing a nobody to a well-established title make the former look bad?


----------



## ovanz (Jun 24, 2012)

Bleh Fans comparing series lol.

Tobi could be like Jack of Blades from Fable, just a masked man, main villain, but we may never see him without his mask.


----------



## Hero of Shadows (Jun 24, 2012)

cbark42 said:


> this. naruto has its faults, but korra was awful. i expect tobi to be no one or just a determined uchiha.





Valgaav said:


> Have you guys even watched LoK? If you have I dont see how you could dislike it. I'll admit I was against a female main character and a modern day verse at first but after watching a few episodes I was hooked.
> 
> And as for character comparison LoK characters are more 3D than Naruto's 2D ones. If anything comparing the two makes LoK look bad not the other way around.



Eh it just felt like this huge let down first series we're fighting to end a century long war, second series Korra already knows Water Earth and Fire there's only learning Air and stopping a terrorist booring. 

And the Airbenders are so annoying "We're pacifists based on Tibetan monks so we're right by default" no wonder Sozin wiped them out.

So who is it going to be Obito's older brother or the yet unheard of third Uchiah brother i.e. Itachi is a middle child.


----------



## Sablés (Jun 24, 2012)

Who else were you expecting Amon to be? The majority of LOK are new characters, Katara is the only one of the original cast alive.


----------



## OneHitKill (Jun 24, 2012)

cbark42 said:


> iroh has no personality.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxZ36MZRKyI&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]



Fuck up


----------



## SaVaGe609 (Jun 24, 2012)

A. People who diss A:tla are all trolls. The only opinion anyone can have towards the show is a good one. Otherwise, they didn't watch it. Fact.

B. LoK was no masterpiece, but it had the War Arc beat a million times over.

C. At this point I would not be surprised if Tobi was someone we don't know. In fact, he probably is.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 24, 2012)

SaVaGe609 said:


> A. People who diss A:tla are all trolls. The only opinion anyone can have towards the show is a good one. Otherwise, they didn't watch it. Fact.
> 
> B. LoK was no masterpiece, but it had the War Arc beat a million times over.
> 
> C. At this point I would not be surprised if Tobi was someone we don't know. In fact, he probably is.



A. I agree, A:TLA was amazing compared with LoK which in my opinion is a disgrace to A:TLA. Way too rushed.

B. It may be, however it would be the entire LOK series so far > War arc. However it can be arguable that some moments of the War arc trashed LoK.

C. He may be, but I doubt it. I would presume it is someone we have heard of at some point in the Manga, at the very least.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 24, 2012)

SaVaGe609 said:


> A. People who diss A:tla are all trolls. The only opinion anyone can have towards the show is a good one. Otherwise, they didn't watch it. Fact.



False.

I watched the majority of the first three "books" and even some of the episodes of the final books, and my impression overall is that Avatar is a pretty mediocre series.

I mean, it's a decent kid's show, but that's all it is.


----------



## kzk (Jun 24, 2012)

The way the story is set up it is not necessary for Tobi to be a character we know.


----------



## KingIceCold (Jun 24, 2012)

He needs to be someone that will shock us. But Pain wasn't someone we knew (the mysterious AL who people thought was Minato), so the author isn't past using characters we don't know.


----------



## SaVaGe609 (Jun 24, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> A. I agree, A:TLA was amazing compared with LoK which in my opinion is a disgrace to A:TLA. Way too rushed.
> 
> B. It may be, however it would be the entire LOK series so far > War arc. However it can be arguable that some moments of the War arc trashed LoK.
> 
> C. He may be, but I doubt it. I would presume it is someone we have heard of at some point in the Manga, at the very least.



It's my personal opinion that the War Arc has been terrible. In fact, its funny that you say LoK was rushed because I find the War Arc to be rushed as well. It's really kinda sad since Kishi stated almost certainly that this would be the last arc. It coulda been way longer and more fleshed out. I realize the same could be said about LoK though.

When it comes to Tobi's identity, I can't think of anyone we know that he _could_ be. The way I see it, he's either a new character or someone really, really, really obscure.



Nikushimi said:


> False.
> 
> I watched the majority of the first three "books" and even some of the episodes of the final books, and my impression overall is that Avatar is a pretty mediocre series.
> 
> I mean, it's a decent kid's show, but that's all it is.



Obviously I was jokingly exaggerating point A. However, going by what you said, you didn't watch it in its entirety. I don't know what exactly the "majority of the first three books" is considering the series consisted only of 3 books...but I would strongly recommend watching it as a whole. The 2nd and 3rd books were magnificent. But hey, to each his own I suppose.

Also, the show often explored more mature themes than Naruto does these days. Just because there was no blood or sand coffins doesn't exactly mean it's completely a children's show.


----------



## NW (Jun 24, 2012)

kzk said:


> The way the story is set up it is not necessary for Tobi to be a character we know.


Yes it is. Everything in the story so far has pointed to Tobi being a character that fans will recognize.



KingIceCold said:


> He needs to be someone that will shock us. But Pain wasn't someone we knew (the mysterious AL who people thought was Minato), so the author isn't past using characters we don't know.


It's not like Kishi was trying to just hide Pain's identity. He just wanted us to see the face of the LEADER  of Akatsuki just yet. He hasn't nearly mindfucked us to the extent that he has with Tobi.



SaVaGe609 said:


> When it comes to Tobi's identity, I can't think of anyone we know that he _could_ be. The way I see it, he's either a new character or someone really, really, really obscure.


What do you mean? There are a few known characters he could be.


Uchiha Obito
I doubt it's Izuna(too many confirmations of his death so would be retarded to just say, oh, wait, he's still alive!)
Uchiha Kagami(kind of a random character but, at least he's someone we've seen before. He's plausible, at the least.)
There's no way he's the Elder Son. Why would Elder Son be under Madara in the plan? Why wouldn't Elder Son know the names of the Biju? Why doesn't Tobi look anything like him?


----------



## †obitobi (Jun 24, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Just to say something here. His eyes regenerated due to Edo Tensei if your talking about that.



Madara didn't know that it was ET that resurrected him, at first. He thought that he was resurrected with Nagato's Rinne Tensei, and had no problem with the fact that he could see in front on him, which indicates that he expected to have his own Rinnegan and for Nagato to have a different pair.

You'll perhaps, then, ask, "how do we know that Rinne Tesnei can't revive one's own eyes?" Well, look at Kakashi's eyes. He doesn't have both of his own eyes, and  he was revived with Rinne Tensei.


----------



## Talis (Jun 26, 2012)

Meh, the reason why the long haired masked man was the real Madara is becuse he modified the Uchiha's stone by himself that he was the one controling the Kyuubi, and these with the MS can controle it.


----------



## kzk (Jun 26, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Yes it is. Everything in the story so far has pointed to Tobi being a character that fans will recognize.



Fans interpreting what could be at best called circumstantial evidence to support their own personal fanfics aside, what evidence of that is there? If he's not still Madara (and I would imagine doubt in that is why these threads still exist), there is really no evidence to support him being any other character. Certainly there is not another character who has been introduced to us who would make much sense as Tobi or really improve the story by being him.


----------



## NW (Jun 26, 2012)

kzk said:


> Fans interpreting what could be at best called circumstantial evidence to support their own personal fanfics aside, what evidence of that is there? If he's not still Madara (and I would imagine doubt in that is why these threads still exist), there is really no evidence to support him being any other character. Certainly there is not another character who has been introduced to us who would make much sense as Tobi or really improve the story by being him.


You clearly don't understand anything about storytelling. There is a lot of evidence for certain characters. It is only your opinion that none of these characters would improve the story. Based on Kishimoto's writing style, there are at least two or three Tobi candidates that would add more depth to the story. He is obviously not still Madara. It would be horrible writing to pretty much confirm that he's not Madara and still have it be him. I have more faith in Kishi for keeping his identity hidden for so long than to pull some soul splitting, Voldemort shit. His identity has been hidden for so long because he is someone that the fans will _recognize_. It would be a major anti-climax to have the subject of all this mystery and speculation turn out to be someone that we never even saw.


----------



## kzk (Jun 26, 2012)

And again I ask:


kzk said:


> Fans interpreting what could be at best called circumstantial evidence to support their own personal fanfics aside, what evidence of that is there?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jun 26, 2012)

It has to be someone the characters or at the very least the fans will recognize because otherwise the mask serves no purpose and the reveal will be pointless because no one will know who he is.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 26, 2012)

I loath this thread. It is beyond annoying at this point.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jun 26, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I loath this thread. It is beyond annoying at this point.



Just ten more weeks.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 26, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Just ten more weeks.




_Supposedly._

It's all a myth.


----------



## NW (Jun 26, 2012)

kzk said:
			
		

> ignoranceignoranceignoranceignorance.....


*sigh*... You just don't get anything, do you? Whatever. His identity will be revealed soon enough, then you'll see, as you're apparently too ignorant to realize the meaning of anything I said.





First Tsurugi said:


> It has to be someone the characters or at the very least the fans will recognize because otherwise the mask serves no purpose and the reveal will be pointless because no one will know who he is.


if only everyone could understand this. -.-



First Tsurugi said:


> Just ten more weeks.


Then this shit will be over.


----------



## DUNGEON (Jun 26, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Just ten more weeks.



JUST 10 weeks.....


----------



## Talis (Jun 26, 2012)

10 weeks for what?
Kakashis year?


----------



## Easley (Jun 26, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Meh, the reason why the long haired masked man was the real Madara is becuse he modified the Uchiha's stone by himself that he was the one controling the Kyuubi, and these with the MS can controle it.


If the long-haired man is Madara, why did Kisame recognize Tobi as the same person?


----------



## Ubereem (Jun 26, 2012)

Tarrlok is Tobi..


----------



## NW (Jun 26, 2012)

Ubereem said:


> Tarrlok is Tobi..


*facepalm*


----------



## kzk (Jun 26, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> *sigh*... You just don't get anything, do you? Whatever. His identity will be revealed soon enough, then you'll see, as you're apparently too ignorant to realize the meaning of anything I said.



Since I'm so clueless, I must have just missed it. Someone as knowledgeable as yourself should have little difficulty showing it to me so that I may be corrected.


----------



## NW (Jun 26, 2012)

kzk said:


> Since I'm so clueless, I must have just missed it. Someone as knowledgeable as yourself should have little difficulty showing it to me so that I may be corrected.


 I've already given you what should have been a sufficient enough logical deduction to convince you that Tobi is most likely a character that we will recognize. Whether or not you perceive it the right way is beyond my control. And at no point did I claim that you were clueless. I just meant that you were being ignorant of the things I was saying to you. I apologize if I came off as condescending.


----------



## Talis (Jun 26, 2012)

Easley said:


> If the long-haired man is Madara, why did Kisame recognize Tobi as the same person?


That was a cocky reference'''so your him, Mizukage-sama or rather Madara san''.
Thats a completely indirect reference like Tobis first time when he mentioned about having Madara's power.
That line could mean anything if you write it well.
He was refering to ''Mizukage'' which was under controle of Madara which goes same as Tobi, after it he called him ''Madara'' so it makes a little sense in Tobi's case also.
In few words, he refered to Tobi as Mizukage sama to refer Tobi being controled like the Mizukage.


----------



## Talis (Jun 26, 2012)

kzk said:


> Since I'm so clueless, I must have just missed it. Someone as knowledgeable as yourself should have little difficulty showing it to me so that I may be corrected.


If i did understand you correctly in your early post your still believe Tobi being somehow Madara right?

Read Tsunade's line ''we've been played for suckers'', it's literally coming out of Kishi's mouth.

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Easley (Jun 26, 2012)

loool3 said:


> That was a cocky reference'''so your him, Mizukage-sama or rather Madara san''.
> Thats a completely indirect reference like Tobis first time when he mentioned about having Madara's power.
> That line could mean anything if you write it well.
> He was refering to ''Mizukage'' which was under controle of Madara which goes same as Tobi, after it he called him ''Madara'' so it makes a little sense in Tobi's case also.
> In few words, he refered to Tobi as Mizukage sama to refer Tobi being controled like the Mizukage.


You are overthinking it. The man who controlled Yagura is Tobi - that's the only way Kisame would know him. He's the "Mizukage". There is no point to that scene if they are different people.


----------



## Talis (Jun 26, 2012)

Easley said:


> You are overthinking it. The man who controlled Yagura is Tobi - that's the only way Kisame would know him. He's the "Mizukage". There is no point to that scene if they are different people.


We'll figure it out some day, i won't be surprised if Tobi was also right there next to Yagura under controle which wasn't shown for obvious reasons.


----------



## kzk (Jun 27, 2012)

loool3 said:


> If i did understand you correctly in your early post your still believe Tobi being somehow Madara right?
> 
> Read Tsunade's line ''we've been played for suckers'', it's literally coming out of Kishi's mouth.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



It's less that I think it's Madara and more that I think he's the only character that makes any sense at all as Tobi other than Tobi being his own character. I'm perfectly content with Tobi being Tobi and nobody else. In fact I'd say that panel is a pretty good case for that idea.


----------



## Mateush (Jun 27, 2012)

Now I admit Tobi couldn't be Madara, because their knowledge about Edo Tensei differ. Clone in some form still is possible, though. But now I think it might be Izuna or another Uchiha.


----------



## Talis (Jun 27, 2012)

Madara gonna recognize Sasuke as the only survivor of that night and admit being the long haired masked man.


----------



## LilMissAnko (Jun 27, 2012)

I'm joining the it's Nawaki  camp. The genes are there...the hair is similar...the comparisons and  parallels to our story's hero... Orochimaru was afoot...  when kabuto addressed him he said "you're going by madara now?" or something to that effect... which gives the impression they've crossed paths somehow before...


----------



## DUNGEON (Jun 27, 2012)

Tobi is Chuck norris. /thread


----------



## NW (Jun 27, 2012)

Mateush said:


> *Now I admit Tobi couldn't be Madara*, because their knowledge about Edo Tensei differ. *Clone in some form still is possible*, though. But now I think it might be Izuna or another Uchiha.



1. It should have been obvious he wasn't Madara right when Madara got ET'd. Do you people even read this manga?

2. Can't be a clone. Anti-climactic. No need for mask. Who the hell's gonna care?



LilMissAnko said:


> I'm joining the it's Nawaki  camp. The genes are there...the hair is similar...the comparisons and  parallels to our story's hero... Orochimaru was afoot...  when kabuto addressed him he said "you're going by madara now?" or something to that effect... which gives the impression they've crossed paths somehow before...


Their hair-color is different. Not to mention, Nawaki's body was supposedly completely mutilated by explosive traps. Nawaki also wouldn't be old enough to be tobi. He'd at best be around 40.



DUNGEON said:


> Tobi is Chuck norris. /thread


 At this point, this is the only theory that makes sense, lol.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 27, 2012)

Tobi why are you smoking catnip?

Don't mindfuck these children with your theories.


----------



## Mateush (Jun 27, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> 1. It should have been obvious he wasn't Madara right when Madara got ET'd. Do you people even read this manga?
> 
> 2. Can't be a clone. Anti-climactic. No need for mask. Who the hell's gonna care?



1. My theories were mostly about Tobi was genjutsu'd or brainwashed into thinking he's Madara. The other alternative could be clone.

2. Yeah, I don't believe he's Madara. But if it's not Izuna, so I think it's likely that he was used by Madara.


----------



## NW (Jun 27, 2012)

kzk said:


> It's less that I think it's Madara and more that I think he's the only character that makes any sense at all as Tobi other than Tobi being his own character. I'm perfectly content with Tobi being Tobi and nobody else. In fact I'd say that panel is a pretty good case for that idea.


I can see your reasoning behind this, but Tobi just being Tobi would ruin the whole mystery factor of his character. And since his character is all a big mystery, his character would be mostly ruined by just being Tobi.


----------



## Talis (Jun 27, 2012)

If Sasukes gonna face Madara then it's safe to say Naruto is also fighting against someone which is like himself aka Tobito.


----------



## Blur (Jun 27, 2012)

*Theory: Tobi is Itachi*

Lets start from the massacre. The masked man that Itachi met was real Madara, he survived using Hashirama cells for longevity or something. After killing all the clan he acted as helping Sasuke in getting power, then using his sharingan genjutsu, he got a Yamanaka clansman to help him with mindtransfer and using knowledge on Obito body got it, and using sharingan enhanced mind body switch he got in his body, powered by Zetsu to be alive. Minato also fought a old and dying Madara. Using sharingan he controled his old body with another mind, like Yagura, to do all he did, and made Sasuke hate , the rest is history.


----------



## NW (Jun 27, 2012)

loool3 said:


> If Sasukes gonna face Madara then it's safe to say Naruto is also fighting against someone which is like himself aka Tobito.


Considering how Kishi is with parallels, I wouldn't be surprised.


----------



## Melodie (Jun 27, 2012)

Tobi identity guesses getting desperate..?​


----------



## jacamo (Jun 27, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Madara gonna recognize Sasuke as the only survivor of that night and admit being the long haired masked man.



it aint going to happen... and MAN youre stubborn

just let it go... Madara had nothing to do with the Massacre, he was long dead by that time... Madara HAD to be dead in order to give Tobi the Rinnegan, who in turn gave implanted them into Nagato



LilMissAnko said:


> I'm joining the it's Nawaki  camp. The genes are there...the hair is similar...the comparisons and  parallels to our story's hero... Orochimaru was afoot...  when kabuto addressed him he said "you're going by madara now?" or something to that effect... which gives the impression they've crossed paths somehow before...



ive always liked this scenario because of the shock factor

the Newaki camp is almost as big as my Kagami camp

but i dont see it... firstly, Tobi is too skilled with his Sharingan to be a non-Uchiha... secondly, Tobi has too much pride as an Uchiha to be a non-Uchiha, his shirt has the Uchiha crest on its back AND he carries Madara's fan


----------



## †obitobi (Jun 27, 2012)

jacamo said:


> it aint going to happen... and MAN youre stubborn
> 
> just let it go... Madara had nothing to do with the Massacre, he was long dead by that time... Madara HAD to be dead in order to give Tobi the Rinnegan, who in turn gave implanted them into Nagato



I believe that you still haven't verified what Tobi meant by "gave".

*Two questions:*

1. If Madara's Rinnegan and Tobi's Rinnegan are the same, then why did Madara have no problem with the fact that he _could _see in front of him when he was under the assumption that it was Rinne Tensei that resurrected him?

Wouldn't that mean that Nagato had his Rinnegan and that he would've been blind at that point? _Please cite_.

2. If Nagato had his Rinnegan _before_ Akatsuki _started_, then how did Madara spurr Nagato to create Akatsuki when he was blind, much less dead, since he died shortly after he awakened his Rinnegan? Please cite.

I believe that the second question might be easier to answer than the first.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 27, 2012)

Tobi took out the Rinnegan after Madara died, simple


----------



## †obitobi (Jun 27, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Tobi took out the Rinnegan after Madara died, simple



Simple, eh?

Rinne Tensei doesn't resurrect one's own eyes.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 27, 2012)

it does if Madara died with this eyes in him

Tobi could have taken them out after


----------



## Talis (Jun 27, 2012)

jacamo said:


> it aint going to happen... and MAN youre stubborn
> 
> just let it go... Madara had nothing to do with the Massacre, he was long dead by that time... Madara HAD to be dead in order to give Tobi the Rinnegan, who in turn gave implanted them into Nagato


Long= just like 10 years?
He lived already for over 100 years it isn't impossible for him to live another 10 years. 
Where in the manga does it imply that Tobi had a grudge against the Uchiha's?
Where in Tobi's flashback did you see Tobi besides the masked long haired man?
Nowhere the whole flashback was about Madara himself including the masked guy.
It was Madara which created the hideout, it was Madara which modified the stone in there about the Kyuubi controle story.
And again Itachi clearly called that guy Madara, while he calls Tobi just Tobi.
It's just obvious as f atm that Itachi knew about Tobi being around it was him which Itachi called a Madara of his former self.


----------



## Jaime Lannister (Jun 27, 2012)

What about Homura Mitokado? It's not as climactic as another Uchiha, for sure, but he's still a relatively mysterious elderly master ninja with an axe to grind...


----------



## NW (Jun 27, 2012)

jacamo said:


> it does if Madara died with this eyes in him
> 
> Tobi could have taken them out after


No, you're wrong. You're thinking of Edo Tensei. Rinne Tensei returns a soul to it's body in it's current condition. So, Madara wouldn't have had his eyes when he was revived, and he should have KNOWN this. But he didn't. Which implies that he expected to be revived with his eyes intact, which wouldn't have been possible if Nagato's eyes were HIS.


----------



## NW (Jun 27, 2012)

Jaime Lannister said:


> What about Homura Mitokado? It's not as climactic as another Uchiha, for sure, but he's still a relatively mysterious elderly master ninja with an axe to grind...


What evidence is there to suggest that HE is Tobi? Plus, the hair color doesn't match.


----------



## †obitobi (Jun 27, 2012)

jacamo said:


> it does if Madara died with this eyes in him
> 
> Tobi could have taken them out after



The state that Kakashi died in was critical with bruises and wounds. Unless you don't consider him any different from when he was revived. Why were they healed but his left eye wasn't rejuvenated as well?


----------



## LilMissAnko (Jun 27, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Their hair-color is different. Not to mention, Nawaki's body was supposedly completely mutilated by explosive traps. Nawaki also wouldn't be old enough to be tobi. He'd at best be around 40.





We see a few wrinkles around his eyes right? maybe those other lines are part of his melty damaged face. The color is def def different though but some people lose their color with age. 



			
				jacamo said:
			
		

> ive always liked this scenario because of the shock factor
> 
> the Newaki camp is almost as big as my Kagami camp
> 
> but i dont see it... firstly, Tobi is too skilled with his Sharingan to be a non-Uchiha... secondly, Tobi has too much pride as an Uchiha to be a non-Uchiha, his shirt has the Uchiha crest on its back AND he carries Madara's fan



He gives eye transplants and hey maybe that's because he has natural medical talents like his big sis.  He's usually covered head to foot...(maybe to hide those scars) and maybe that uchiha pride is because he sides with that uchiha notion of hate more than all that senju love post his injuries.

Motive would be a little difficult to pin though. He did say he would be hokage someday and that a man doesn't go back on his word so maybe he ran with that....

Again, I know I'm just grasping and speculating and im sure there are others who explain this theory better but
You're both probably right and it's not him..*.but it could be*.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 27, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Long= just like 10 years?



since Nagato was a kid, thats 20-30 years



loool3 said:


> Where in the manga does it imply that Tobi had a grudge against the Uchiha's?



chapter 590, Tobi and Itachi confirmed it



TobiUchiha111 said:


> No, you're wrong. You're thinking of Edo Tensei. Rinne Tensei returns a soul to it's body in it's current condition. So, Madara wouldn't have had his eyes when he was revived, and he should have KNOWN this. But he didn't. Which implies that he expected to be revived with his eyes intact, which wouldn't have been possible if Nagato's eyes were HIS.



Madara though that NAGATO revived him

maybe the plan involved Madara taking over Nagato's body



Tobitobi said:


> The state that Kakashi died in was critical with bruises and wounds. Unless you don't consider him any different from when he was revived. Why were they healed but his left eye wasn't rejuvenated as well?



how do you know it wasnt rejuvenated? it could have been


----------



## Talis (Jun 27, 2012)

jacamo said:


> since Nagato was a kid, thats 20-30 years
> 
> 
> 
> chapter 590, Tobi and Itachi confirmed it


Itachi clearly called that masked man Madara, while he calls the regular Tobi just Tobi.

Theres no way that Itachi figured out that the long haired was Tobi right after his dead.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 27, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Itachi clearly called that masked man Madara, while he calls the regular Tobi just Tobi.
> 
> Theres no way that Itachi figured out that the long haired was Tobi right after his dead.



it doesnt matter

Madara was dead by the time Nagato got the Rinnegan, we know this because he *"died shortly after awakening these eyes"*

its a plot hole for Itachi and Madara to have had contact


----------



## NW (Jun 27, 2012)

LilMissAnko said:


> We see a few wrinkles around his eyes right? maybe those other lines are part of his melty damaged face. The color is def def different though but some people lose their color with age.



1. Okay, his face wouldn't just look wrinkly from having an explosive trap blow up on it.

2. I doubt his hair would have changed from light brown to dark black.



jacamo said:


> Madara though that NAGATO revived him
> 
> maybe the plan involved Madara taking over Nagato's body


*facepalm* this is getting pathetic now. What crazy evidence could you possibly have to support this?



jacamo said:


> it doesnt matter
> 
> Madara was dead by the time Nagato got the Rinnegan, we know this because he *"died shortly after awakening these eyes"*
> 
> its a plot hole for Itachi and Madara to have had contact


We don't know at what time Madara awakened the Rinnegan. Stop assuming things to be plotholes when you don't even know everything about the subject.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 27, 2012)

Tobi is Minato's evil brother, Tomato. Notice how Tomato begins with T and so does Tobi, and that a tomato is reddish orange and so was Tobi's old mask.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 27, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> *facepalm* this is getting pathetic now. What crazy evidence could you possibly have to support this?



i dont need any.... Madara wouldnt have implemented a plan to revive himself if he was going to be revived as a crippled maggot with no eyes



> We don't know at what time Madara awakened the Rinnegan. Stop assuming things to be plotholes when you don't even know everything about the subject.



lol what? we absolutely DO know when Madara awakened the Rinnegan - "i died *shortly after *awakening these eyes" Nagato possessing those eyes since childhood gives us a general time frame.... its not a quantifiable number of years, but its safe to assume that "shortly" means before Itachi's time

it IS a plot hole for Itachi and Madara to know each other or to have had contact after what Madara said in the above quote


----------



## †obitobi (Jun 27, 2012)

jacamo said:


> how do you know it wasnt rejuvenated? it could have been



He still has Obito's sharingan in his head instead of his own eye.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 27, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Madara knows the seals for Edo Tensei, whereas Tobi didn't know much about the technique. Ergo, Tobi and Madara are indeed different people. 




Factoring that in, and also the fact that the Tobi's right eye almost certainly contains a Mangekyo, we are left with only two options really. These being, the only two options that would make Kishi hide the eye every single time Tobi uses Jikukan Ido. These options are Izuna and Obito (ie, the only two whose Mangekyo we could recognize). For many, many reasons, Obito doesn't make much sense. So I am going with Izuna. Although I wouldn't be at all surprised to have Kishi troll us and show us Obito's Mangekyo or something as a fake reveal. And then have Tobi claim to be Obito before revealing that it was yet another lie.


----------



## jacamo (Jun 27, 2012)

^i think Tobi is related to Obito because of the Jikukan similarity

Tobi is Obito's father, Kagami


----------



## NW (Jun 27, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i dont need any.... Madara wouldnt have implemented a plan to revive himself if he was going to be revived as a crippled maggot with no eyes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tobitobi and I have already presented evidence that suggests that Nagato's eyes weren't Madara's. Also, I doubt Madara planned to stay dead as long as he did.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> Madara knows the seals for Edo Tensei, whereas Tobi didn't know much about the technique. Ergo, Tobi and Madara are indeed different people.
> *This should have been obvious once Edo Madara came in. God....*
> 
> Factoring that in, and also the fact that the Tobi's right eye almost certainly contains a Mangekyo, we are left with only two options really. These being, the only two options that would make Kishi hide the eye every single time Tobi uses Jikukan Ido. These options are Izuna and Obito (ie, the only two whose Mangekyo we could recognize). For many, many reasons, Obito doesn't make much sense. So I am going with Izuna. Although I wouldn't be at all surprised to have Kishi troll us and show us Obito's Mangekyo or something as a fake reveal. And then have Tobi claim to be Obito before revealing that it was yet another lie.


 Izuna wouldn't even have his Mangekyo. Madara took is eyes. Sure, he could have stolen new ones and implanted them, but they wouldn't contain the same Mangekyo pattern. If the eyes even HAD Mangekyo at all. Sure, there are a few things about Tobi being Obito that don't make sense, but all Tobi theories have something that doesn't make sense.


----------



## NW (Jun 27, 2012)

jacamo said:


> ^i think Tobi is related to Obito because of the Jikukan similarity
> 
> Tobi is Obito's father, Kagami


What proof do you have that Kagami is Obito's father? And why would his Jikukan only come from one eye?


----------



## jacamo (Jun 27, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Tobitobi and I have already presented evidence that suggests that Nagato's eyes weren't Madara's. Also, I doubt Madara planned to stay dead as long as he did.



you presented hints

there are also hints which suggest Nagato's eyes were Madara's



TobiUchiha111 said:


> What proof do you have that Kagami is Obito's father? And why would his Jikukan only come from one eye?



i dont need proof if its just a theory

if i had proof it would be fact


----------



## †obitobi (Jun 27, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you presented hints
> 
> there are also hints which suggest Nagato's eyes were Madara's



I don't believe that you've posted a response to my last post, about Kakashi's eyes.


----------



## NW (Jun 27, 2012)

Another reason that Tobi couldn't be Nawaki is because Tsunade isn't there to recognize him. So, the reveal would be pointless, not to the fans but in the manga, it would be pointless. I would actually like this twist though.


----------



## Hossaim (Jun 27, 2012)

Tobi is kakashi
Tobi is Gai
Tobi is Funkagu
Tobi is Minato
Tobi is Tsunade
Tobi is Gaara
Tobi is Sasuke
Tobi is Naruto
Tobi is Danzo
Tobi is Itachi
Tobi is Obito
Tobi is Madara
Tobi is Hashirama
Tobi is Zetsu
Tobi is Hidan
Tobi is Deidara

TOBI IS FUCKING EVERYONE


----------



## Setsuna00 (Jun 27, 2012)

ROFL. That's an interesting theory. But sir, why would Itachi try to burn himself alive with Amaterasu after Sasuke already beat him at their showdown? Then gives his brother his own eyes, yet still having eyes himself this entire time. How did he fight Sasuke to begin with...I mean I'm confusing myself trying to ask these questions.


----------



## LilMissAnko (Jun 27, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> 1. Okay, his face wouldn't just look wrinkly from having an explosive trap blow up on it.
> 
> 2. I doubt his hair would have changed from light brown to dark black.



I think old age is part of it but ...

*Spoiler*: __ 









Don't you think his eye region looks weird like besides old age weird?

[

Okay sorry this is a real person's burned face so its gruesome



As for the hair... 


 

Alright, i know I'm being silly but mayhaps the result of some Orochimaru experimenting... he was around when this kid... "died"



TobiUchiha111 said:


> Another reason that Tobi couldn't be Nawaki is because Tsunade isn't there to recognize him. So, the reveal would be pointless, not to the fans but in the manga, it would be pointless. I would actually like this twist though.






why bring that up !

But I do agree with you , that unless Tsunade's around when that mask comes off its like okay.... whatever...

but still...I'm just saying it could be him!


----------



## eyeknockout (Jun 27, 2012)

makes sense, itachi solos. the only person he couldn't solo was tobi, but if tobi is itachi, then itachi cannot solo itachi because itachi solos


----------



## NW (Jun 28, 2012)

LilMissAnko said:


> I think old age is part of it but ...
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Alright, you've definitely made some good points. For now I'll put this theory as: plausible. Now that I think about it, Nawaki could have died his hair black in order for people to believe he was Madara. And, maybe the sudden relevance with Tsunade in this chapter could mean something. But man, I wasn't expecting that. You're really good at finding evidence. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



And making fake pictures of Tobi hair products,lol.


----------



## Aleeight (Jun 28, 2012)

Tobi is Tobi. He's an artificial being manufactured to be the ultimate Uchiha, and there are dozens of Tobi clones out there for each set of stolen Uchiha eyes. 

Or not.

He can be everyone and everything. Seriously. Though, I personally just want my funny Tobi back.


----------



## Ender Wiggin (Jun 28, 2012)

I hope so solely because the reaction would be glorious. Even if it doesn't make much sense. Just when everyone thought Itachi was finally gone...


----------



## Ubereem (Jun 28, 2012)

If this is true then Naruto, and the gang are in deep trouble this time..


----------



## Blur (Jun 28, 2012)

Setsuna00 said:


> ROFL. That's an interesting theory. But sir, why would Itachi try to burn himself alive with Amaterasu after Sasuke already beat him at their showdown? Then gives his brother his own eyes, yet still having eyes himself this entire time. How did he fight Sasuke to begin with...I mean I'm confusing myself trying to ask these questions.



Because, who knows Itachi's abilities better than himself? He knew that he can evade Amaterasu with his space/time technique. He gave Sasuke his eyes (from his old body) because he wanted to use him as his pawn all along - remember now he has other Uchihas eyes and Obito's Sharingan. This theory also makes sense how can Tobi be Obito - at least the body.


----------



## Raventhal (Jun 28, 2012)

Aleeight said:


> Tobi is Tobi. He's an artificial being manufactured to be the ultimate Uchiha, and there are dozens of Tobi clones out there for each set of stolen Uchiha eyes.
> 
> Or not.
> 
> He can be everyone and everything. Seriously. Though, I personally just want my funny Tobi back.



It would have been awesome if Tobi reverted after being exposed by Kabuto to funny but insane Tobi.


----------



## handsock (Jun 28, 2012)

Tobi = Son clone of both Hashiramen & Madara.


----------



## DoflaMihawk (Jun 28, 2012)

Even though Tobu was speaking to Kakashi when Itachi fought Sasuke.


----------



## Blur (Jun 28, 2012)

DoflaMihawk said:


> Even though Tobu was speaking to Kakashi when Itachi fought Sasuke.



If you would read the theory, you would know how that is possible.


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Jun 28, 2012)

Then how come he is resurrected as Edo Tensei zombie ?


----------



## Blur (Jun 28, 2012)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Then how come he is resurrected as Edo Tensei zombie ?



Because the body that got resurected was his original one, that Tobi aka Itachi with the help of Sharingan genjutsu (see Yagura) controled with another mind inside of it, and that Kotoamatsukami was just another tool for Tobi (Itachi) to get hold of his old body so Kabuto couldnt control it and maybe find out his secrets.


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Jun 28, 2012)

Edit : I get what you are trying to say now . Your theory doesn't explain how Itachi managed to behave like himself when he was resurrected and even before using Koto on himself .


----------



## Blur (Jun 28, 2012)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Edit : I get what you are trying to say now . Your theory doesn't explain how Itachi managed to behave like himself when he was resurrected and even before using Koto on himself .


Maybe thanks to a Genjutsu the personality inside of him thought that it is Itachi (He could have used Koto on it long time ago - or why do you think it had a cooldown in process considering that those events happend like almost 10 years ago), and the second Koto just got him out of Kabuto's control.


Just as planned.


----------



## ovanz (Jun 28, 2012)

Wait didn't the manga already told us that Tobi was Teruichi the ramen guy? i haven't see them together.


----------



## Blur (Jun 28, 2012)

ovanz said:


> Wait didn't the manga already told us that Tobi was Teruichi the ramen guy? i haven't see them together.



Since when were you under the impression that there is only one Tobi?


----------



## Jon Snow (Jun 28, 2012)

Jeez, could you make less sense?


----------



## Revolution (Jun 28, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> TOBI IS FUCKING EVERYONE



Send me a link to that hentai.


----------



## Shattering (Jun 28, 2012)

If Tobi is Itachi then GL for Nardo.


----------



## KevKev (Jun 28, 2012)

nah. Zetsu clone of Madara


----------



## Ubereem (Jun 28, 2012)

Tobi went from Madara to Itachi. Who is next??


----------



## NW (Jun 28, 2012)

Yuna said:
			
		

> Actually, Tobi being a Zetsu clone of Madara is one of the *least* mentally challenged theories.


First off, if Tobi looked just like Madara, there would be no need for a mask. Second, it would be completely idiotic and anti-climactic for the final villain of the entire series to be a mere clone of another antagonist. All of the suspense would be wasted. And, how can he be a clone when his abilities are completely different from Madara's? If Kishi was going to make Tobi Madara in some way, he probably would have just made him the real Madara, which he obviously didn't, signifying that he intended for the two of them to be completely different characters. The whole thing makes no sense. And Tobi has way too dark of an outlook on the world to be just a clone. From a storytelling point of view, this twist is completely illogical and Kishimoto would be a failed writer if this were to come to pass. The mask represents his hidden identity, and the concept would be ruined if his face was that of the person he originally claimed to be. I know you won't listen to any of this. No one ignorant enough to believe this in the first place is going to listen to any solid arguments, after all. Just don't be surprised when Tobi isn't a Zetsu clone and is an actual previously introduced character that people will recognize and be shocked by.


----------



## Samehada (Jun 28, 2012)

I'll jump on this bandwagon. Hell, if its taking me to a happier, carefree place where Tobi can be who ever you want it to be, I'm game.


----------



## gus3 (Jun 29, 2012)

*A connection between Tobi and Obito (not saying they're the same person)*

Okay I'll be honest. I do believe that there is a chance that they're the same person. But, I also think that Tobi may not even be an Uchiha at all. Thats not what this thread is about though. I'm going to be talking about another theory I have.

First let me tell you what I think Tobi is. Based on what Madara said, I believe that Tobi was, at one time, his apprentice. The Eye of the Moon plan was originally Madara's plan, but he was unable to see it through due to dying of old age. It would have been Tobi's responsibility to ensure that Nagato used Rinne Tensei to bring him back to life. Tobi instead chose take over the whole operation himself. 

One thing that I think cannot be denied is a connection between Tobi and Obito. And that connection is their Sharingan. I believe that, not long after Obito's death, Tobi somehow found out about the location of his body. Now a lot people would say that there was no way for him to reach Obito under so many tons ruble. They must have forgotten about:

An ability that would have made retrieving that particular Sharingan less of a hassle. There are a few things that make me believe that Tobi's Sharingan was originally Obito's. First, we've never seen him deactivate it. Like Kakashi, if his Sharingan was a transplant then he would never be able to turn it off.

Now for something a little more obvious. His Space–Time Migration and Kakashi's Kamui appear to be the same type of jutsu. The right eye is short range and the left eye long range. In order to use his, as Kakashi does, Tobi would need to have the Mangekyo Sharingan. Which brings me to my next point. Tobi has the Mangekyo Sharingan! Every time he uses the Space–Time Migration technique, that's him activating his Mangekyo Sharingan. Kishi has refrained from showing it to us because if it looked like this:

Then everyone would automatically figure out that it originally came from Obito. I actually think that Kishi very subtly hinted at this a while back. Look at these pages:

*Spoiler*: __ 








Tobi's head in the top panel, Kakashi's on the bottom. Their respective Sharingan's opposite one another, almost mirroring each other. And there's something about the lines that they spoke, read them. I just get the feeling that Kishi was hinting at something.

Oh and for those of you wondering about that other Sharingan that Tobi used during his battle with Konan. That one's easy. It was a spare used in case of emergencies. Remember, he has a lab full of them. Trophies from his involvement in the Uchiha Clan massacre is my guess. Seemed to make it a point not to sacrifice his right eye.

So, does anyone agree? Or do you have your own theories to add?


----------



## Xparn (Jun 29, 2012)

*TOBI IS THE ELDER SON OF RIKOUDO!*

The elder son of rikodou, i think it's given some true facts and reasons why it should be him.

You can read on something "Coderack" posted on youtube;

Heeeee is not ooooone of us...


----------



## Anonymouse (Jun 29, 2012)

He was on a team along side the Konoha Elders, Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Danzou.

His hairstyle is the same, his face looks similar. They have the same 3 tomoe-sharingan.


----------



## NW (Jun 29, 2012)

gus3 said:


> Okay I'll be honest. I do believe that there is a chance that they're the same person. But, I also think that Tobi may not even be an Uchiha at all. Thats not what this thread is about though. I'm going to be talking about another theory I have.
> 
> First let me tell you what I think Tobi is. Based on what Madara said, I believe that Tobi was, at one time, his apprentice. The Eye of the Moon plan was originally Madara's plan, but he was unable to see it through due to dying of old age. It would have been Tobi's responsibility to ensure that Nagato used Rinne Tensei to bring him back to life. Tobi instead chose take over the whole operation himself.
> 
> ...


Wow. Nice theory. I'm not sure how Tobi would know of the whereabouts of Obito's body, but hey. I actually think it would be more likely that they're the same person. I have alot of evidence to back this up, but have posted it too many times on this thread. One thing's for sure, though. Tobi most likely possesses Obito's eye, whether he's Obito or not. There's too much hinting at it and their has to be a reason that is Space-Time Ninjutsu only comes from one eye. Although I think him actually being Obito would be a more dramatic twist. It would also explain how he always seems to talk "odd" around Kakashi. Maybe I'm looking too much into it but it's just suspicious to me. Nice job, though incorporating Tobi's "Hiding Like a Mole Technique"(or whatever it's called, lol) into your theory. Very original.


Anonymouse said:


> He was on a team along side the Konoha Elders, Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Danzou.
> 
> His hairstyle is the same, his face looks similar. They have the same 3 tomoe-sharingan.


Sorry dude, I don't think it's Kagami. He's too random and uninvolved with the plot for it to be him. Sure there is some evidence that it could be him, but most of it is just coincidences that can easily be explained.


----------



## Talis (Jun 29, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Sorry dude, I don't think it's Kagami. He's too random and uninvolved with the plot for it to be him. Sure there is some evidence that it could be him, but most of it is just coincidences that can easily be explained.


lol you change your theories daily don't you.


----------



## NW (Jun 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> lol you change your theories daily don't you.


No I just thought it out and came to the conclusion that this theory isn't logical. I was interested in it for a time, but after closely examining it, I don't think Kagami is a plausible option for Tobi's identity. it would be borderline retarded for the final villain to be some completely irrelevant and unattached fodder character that was in two panels and had only one line. The whole theory almost seems like some sort of joke someone would tell a friend.


----------



## gjoerulv (Jun 29, 2012)

Tobi is Konohamaru from the future...

I think Tobi's right eye is Obito's eye. It may even be Obito's body, but it is not Obito's mind. That would make no sense.
Him being Madara (or someone else) in Obito's body makes sense considering  Kakashi is on the scene with Tobi.

I still think it actually is Madara though. Itachi, Kisame and Nagato recognised Tobi as Madara.


----------



## NW (Jun 29, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> Tobi is Konohamaru from the future...
> 
> I think Tobi's right eye is Obito's eye. It may even be Obito's body, but it is not Obito's mind. That would make no sense.
> Him being Madara (or someone else) in Obito's body makes sense considering  Kakashi is on the scene with Tobi.
> ...


................. I'm assuming the first one is a joke.

It can't be Madara in Obito's body. First of all, Madara was Edo Tensei'd so no matter what, it's not him. I am wondering how it wouldn't make sense if it was actually Obito's soul as well. There are alot of loose ends that still need to be tied up regarding the whole Gaiden ordeal, and Tobi being Obito could potentially explain them. Besides, Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto, so an evil obito would therefore be Naruto's exact opposite and make a great final villain for the series. Besides, I can't believe people even use this argument to support this theory. Just look at Nagato. Well, whatever. It can't be Madara. That makes no logical sense at all. Madara wouldn't be focused on so much during his battle with the Kages, if Tobi was still him. People only recognized him as Madara because he had similar feats.


----------



## Xparn (Jun 29, 2012)

Stop arguing who it is... ITS THE ELDER SON OF RIKODOU! END OF STORY.


----------



## NW (Jun 29, 2012)

Xparn said:


> Stop arguing who it is... ITS THE ELDER SON OF RIKODOU! END OF STORY.


Look at you, just barging in here, blabbering shit. Unless you're the writer of the manga, then you do not know for sure who Tobi is. Don't try to force your opinions on anyone else. Yours isn't the only one that maters. And, if you're so sure that Tobi is the Elder Son, then why doesn't Tobi know the names of the Biju? And, why does Tobi seem to be under Madara in the plan if, if he is the Elder Son, he should be above him? And, how would the Elder Son stay alive this long. And, even if he could, then why wouldn't he enact his plan sooner? Why wait SO long to get his revenge?


----------



## Toxic Adyta (Jun 29, 2012)

Elder Son of the Rikudo? Too old.

While I originally subscribed to the Tobi = Obito theory, the biggest problem I see with that is his age. During Tobi's attack on Konoha v. Yondaime Hokage, Obito would have only been around the same age as Kakashi, who was only 14-15 around the time of the attack. Tobi on the other hand appears to be far older than that, and it's highly unlikely that in the span of 1-2 years Obito became powerful enough to challenge the Fourth Hokage. Even if Madara ended up training him, I can't bring myself to believe that in such a short time period Obito would be capable of advancing so quickly.

If you don't mind, TobiUchiha111, I would like to see your compiled 'evidence' on how Tobi and Obito are the same person. I'm interested (maybe in a PM or something?).

At the moment, I'm thinking that Tobi's identity is that of a person we have not yet been introduced to. Though I've also entertained thoughts of a ''Madara Zetsu clone'', Izuna Uchiha, and even Danzo. I've read some pretty weird stuff out there. :\


----------



## Akitō (Jun 29, 2012)

I think Tobi might be the Elder Son in Obito's body. It'd fit with the similarity in appearance between Tobi and Obito, and it'd explain how Tobi knows so much about the past. Also, I've always got the feeling that the Elder Son was the evil sort, so his actions as Tobi wouldn't be very surprising.


----------



## NW (Jun 29, 2012)

MegamanXZOBMV said:


> Elder Son of the Rikudo? Too old.
> 
> While I originally subscribed to the Tobi = Obito theory, the biggest problem I see with that is his age. During Tobi's attack on Konoha v. Yondaime Hokage, Obito would have only been around the same age as Kakashi, who was only 14-15 around the time of the attack. Tobi on the other hand appears to be far older than that, and it's highly unlikely that in the span of 1-2 years Obito became powerful enough to challenge the Fourth Hokage. Even if Madara ended up training him, I can't bring myself to believe that in such a short time period Obito would be capable of advancing so quickly.
> 
> ...


Lol, you've got a good imagination. Danzo? Zetsu clone? Izuna is a possibility though, lol. But, I don't really see a reason that Obito couldn't have been that tall by then. We know that people grow at different rates, just look at Itachi when he killed the clan, he was like 14 and look at how tall he was. And, if you look at Kakashi and guy during the Kyuubi attack, they appear to be very tall for their age. So, Obito might be that tall too. Obito was also a bit taller than Kakashi in Gaiden. I know this contradicts what I said about growing in different rates but, meh. It's not like it disproves anything. As for taking on Minato... Well, we have to keep in mind that Tobi DID end up losing. Now, Minato said that Tobi could see through his every move. If Tobi is Obito, then he could probably see through his every move, seeing as how he was his student, and probably knew his fighting style. the only thing he couldn't see through was FTG Lv. 2, which I'm willing to bet Obito had never seen before. I don't really think anyone during the war was as much a challenge that he had to use that. Also, Obito's mangekyo sharingan possesses some incredibly powerful Space-Time Ninjutsu, so, that would have helped. Pupils surpassing their mentors also seems to be a running theme in this manga, so Obito surpassing his mentor would make sense from a theme perspective. Sorry that was so dragged out, lol. Anyway, I guess I'l PM you with other evidence.


----------



## Talis (Jun 29, 2012)

Why u no start Kakashis year Kishi.


----------



## Toxic Adyta (Jun 29, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Lol, you've got a good imagination. Danzo? Zetsu clone? Izuna is a possibility though, lol. But, I don't really see a reason that Obito couldn't have been that tall by then. We know that people grow at different rates, just look at Itachi when he killed the clan, he was like 14 and look at how tall he was. And, if you look at Kakashi and guy during the Kyuubi attack, they appear to be very tall for their age. So, Obito might be that tall too. Obito was also a bit taller than Kakashi in Gaiden. I know this contradicts what I said about growing in different rates but, meh. It's not like it disproves anything. As for taking on Minato... Well, we have to keep in mind that Tobi DID end up losing. Now, Minato said that Tobi could see through his every move. If Tobi is Obito, then he could probably see through his every move, seeing as how he was his student, and probably knew his fighting style. the only thing he couldn't see through was FTG Lv. 2, which I'm willing to bet Obito had never seen before. I don't really think anyone during the war was as much a challenge that he had to use that. Also, Obito's mangekyo sharingan possesses some incredibly powerful Space-Time Ninjutsu, so, that would have helped. Pupils surpassing their mentors also seems to be a running theme in this manga, so Obito surpassing his mentor would make sense from a theme perspective. Sorry that was so dragged out, lol. Anyway, I guess I'l PM you with other evidence.



None of those were my ''imagination''. Just various things I've read around the net. 

As for the height thing.. I'm not too concerned about that, but really I see that as another shot against Tobi being Obito, no matter how one tries to twist it. I still think it's too unlikely for Obito to beat Minato. Yes, the new generation beating out the old is a running theme, but aside from that there's really nothing else that supports Obito being able to take on Minato and put up that good of a fight. I don't believe Obito seeing through his every move for a second. Even with the fact that Obito trained under the Fourth, you still have to account for the fact that he was a failure in most things he did, like early Naruto. Obito would have one to two years to grow from being a sub-par Uchiha and sub-par Genin, to being one of the strongest shinobi the ninja world has ever seen. I just don't see it as plausible.


----------



## NW (Jun 29, 2012)

MegamanXZOBMV said:


> None of those were my ''imagination''. Just various things I've read around the net.
> 
> As for the height thing.. I'm not too concerned about that, but really I see that as another shot against Tobi being Obito, no matter how one tries to twist it. I still think it's too unlikely for Obito to beat Minato. Yes, the new generation beating out the old is a running theme, but aside from that there's really nothing else that supports Obito being able to take on Minato and put up that good of a fight. I don't believe Obito seeing through his every move for a second. Even with the fact that Obito trained under the Fourth, you still have to account for the fact that he was a failure in most things he did, like early Naruto. Obito would have one to two years to grow from being a sub-par Uchiha and sub-par Genin, to being one of the strongest shinobi the ninja world has ever seen. I just don't see it as plausible.


Sorry about the imagination thing, I worded it wrong. But, have you seen how strong Naruto and Sasuke became in just 2-3 years? Obito being trained by Madara in a short 1-2 year period, could possibly make him become that strong.


----------



## Xparn (Jun 30, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Look at you, just barging in here, blabbering shit. Unless you're the writer of the manga, then you do not know for sure who Tobi is. Don't try to force your opinions on anyone else. Yours isn't the only one that maters. And, if you're so sure that Tobi is the Elder Son, then why doesn't Tobi know the names of the Biju? And, why does Tobi seem to be under Madara in the plan if, if he is the Elder Son, he should be above him? And, how would the Elder Son stay alive this long. And, even if he could, then why wouldn't he enact his plan sooner? Why wait SO long to get his revenge?



Ofcourse mine is the only that matters ;D

Where do it says that Elder son could all the bijus names? Chapter? Nowhere.
Tobi [Elder son of rikoudou] How do he seems to be above? Again nothing strong to answer with.
Why he would live? Because of hes spiritual power, and he maybe spoke with madara's with hes plan and madara accepted it, that's maybe because madara knew that he was going to be resurrected.. And as Kakashi got in itachi's eye technique it seemed that he was there for what was it? a week when it actually had been like 1 second, so the possibility somehow for elder son of rikodou seems legit and possible and yes he was son of the "god of all ninjas" so why the hell not, and that he is weak for the time maybe is just because of the time he been living so long and maybe because of the fights with the Konoha.

Though as you said i can't be sure, but i really wanted someone to answer my reply and tell me why it couldn't be elder son of rikodou and still i haven't got any better idea's who it can be... Kagami and Obito is just to far from it..

And about him waiting so long, was just maybe because he needed people to help him get the bijus and he couldn't do it alone because he was weak.


----------



## NW (Jun 30, 2012)

Xparn said:


> Ofcourse mine is the only that matters ;D
> 
> Where do it says that Elder son could all the bijus names? Chapter? Nowhere.
> Tobi [Elder son of rikoudou] How do he seems to be above? Again nothing strong to answer with.
> ...


I'm going to assume the opening sentence was a joke, lol.


This was well thought out, but there are a few issues:

1. Rikudou split the Juubi into the nine biju pretty much, I'd say, very close to his death. And, I'm pretty sure that him choosing his successor  (one of the two sons) came pretty close after it. I have no doubt that he would have told both of them the names of the biju, seeing as how important they were.

2. You're saying that we don't know if the Elder Son was weak or not. Well, I think it would be pretty safe to assume that he was very strong. Seeing as how he was the direct son of Rikudou Sennin and that them Uchiha descended from him.

3. You said that the Elder Son weakened over time, and that's why he isn't currently that strong. But, he could have just enacted his plan much sooner, while he was still strong, if he really wanted his revenge that badly.

4. Longevity. This is the biggest problem with this theory. How could the Elder Son stay alive? You're saying that it's beause of his spiritual energy, but it was in fact, the _younger_ son who was born with Rikudou's spiritual energy. If anything, the Younger Son would be able to live longer, and even he couldn't live that long, seeing as how this all probably happened at least a thousand years ago, hell, i'd say it was even longer.


----------



## Xparn (Jun 30, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I'm going to assume the opening sentence was a joke, lol.
> 
> 
> This was well thought out, but there are a few issues:
> ...



Yeah i was ironic.. 

1. Well there is something you think, but as we are speaking of possibilities so is this the closest one, and for me it's kinda clear.

2. Yes of course he was strong, but during all this time he prelonged his life maybe he got weaker and was trying to find ways to get stronger, and now seems to have found it all.

3. As he states everywhere, is that he waited so long for everything to crash etc konoha he said he have been waiting for that for a long while, but it was just maybe the tip of a iceberg. And he maybe wasnt able to engange the plan so soon because he needed all the pieces and still today he is searching and trying to collect pieces, etc eyes rinnegan, shisuis eye, itachi and hes whole lab full of eyes + Zetzu has something important the same with nagata life resurecting etc..


4. The older son, who inherited the Sage's "eyes" (his powerful chakra and spiritual energy), believed that power was the true key to peace. The younger son, who inherited the Sage's "body" (his powerful will and physical energy),


----------



## NW (Jun 30, 2012)

Xparn said:


> Yeah i was ironic..
> 
> 1. Well there is something you think, but as we are speaking of possibilities so is this the closest one, and for me it's kinda clear.
> 
> ...


All your points are good except for the last one. I was mistaken about who had the spiritual energy, but the Younger Son had the sage's "body" so he would be the one to live longer. Although, I guess it could be possible that the Elder Son stole his brother's DNA....


----------



## Xparn (Jun 30, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> All your points are good except for the last one. I was mistaken about who had the spiritual energy, but the Younger Son had the sage's "body" so he would be the one to live longer. Although, I guess it could be possible that the Elder Son stole his brother's DNA....



Well there is a possibility to that he got his DNA, But if he could travel to time dimensions etc itachi could be in a dimension where 1 second in real was 1 week, maybe tobi had the reverse thingie... as hes dimension where sasuke got healed by kiri


----------



## mayumi (Jun 30, 2012)

I am going to bet its Obito or Shisui.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Jun 30, 2012)

mayumi said:


> I am going to bet its Obito or Shisui.



I can even guess why...

Just WTF Kishi?


----------



## Plot Hole (Jun 30, 2012)

takL said:


> Da・ Vinci is a monthly magazine specialized in books and comics.
> the next issue slated for july 6 will carry kish's interview.
> 
> today i went to bookstores to get a copy of the mag with the kish & asian kungfu interview.
> ...





tobi identity came out today in a magazine about the new naruto movie it is obito. sorry everypony thats that check out the naruto movie thread for more details.


----------



## DUNGEON (Jun 30, 2012)

Its about time when kishi reveals ToBi's identity Or it would be to late for kishi.


----------



## ShenLong Kazama (Jun 30, 2012)

Chapter 600 will probably reveal something big. I hope Tobi's identity. Because that's the thing which got trolled the most. First Tobi was a random character, than Madara, and than not Madara.


----------



## Shaz (Jun 30, 2012)

Rally up Tobi Identifiers!


----------



## son_michael (Jun 30, 2012)

Plot Hole said:


> tobi identity came out today in a magazine about the new naruto movie it is obito. sorry everypony thats that check out the naruto movie thread for more details.



what? link or negged for bad joke.




This shit is important to us you know


----------



## Plot Hole (Jun 30, 2012)

son_michael said:


> what? link or negged for bad joke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Click on movie thread it's all there


----------



## son_michael (Jun 30, 2012)

just saw the thread but there doesn't seem to be cause for victory yet as shisui is supposebly tobi yet obito is also mentioned...seems all the translators are confused with kishi's scribbles


----------



## wstickman (Jun 30, 2012)

It isn't a good translation, Kishi's handwriting is too messy for anything more accurate. But reputable translators have said that it says Tobi is Obito. Before anyone freaks out, wait for a better translation.


----------



## SageOfAllPaths (Jun 30, 2012)

I couldn't care less as long as it isn't f-ing Obito. The timeline is weird, they don't seem to have any kind of similarity in personality, and yes it completely ruins the whole idea that Naruto and Sasuke are the major plot point. Sure it can be a whole "Obito turned dark and Kakashi faces him" friends moment that helps Naruto with Sasuke, but that's crap. If Kishi spent all these years writing this for a sh!t ending with the Mastermind Masked Villain he's wasted a whole section of his life creating a library full of toilet paper. 

That being said I'm not saying it isn't Obito, although clearly I'd prefer Shisui, Kagami, Elder "Body Hopper" Brother, Madara/Madara clone, and even random surprise character made up of Zetsu goo(which is factless suggestion and relatively irritating, especially because it's the kind of factless suggestion that could easily be completely correct crap) over Obito.

Lol I'd honestly even rather it be Aoba


----------



## Talis (Jun 30, 2012)

^A clones gonna make such an epic reveal moment.


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Jul 1, 2012)

Akitō said:


> I think Tobi might be the Elder Son in Obito's body.



Any good reason why you think the Elder son chose Obito's body ?

I myself don't get why people think some XYZ took over Obito's body . He was just a Chunnin , had only one 2 tomoe sharingan , half of his body was crushed and was buried beneath rubble. Pretty sure there were tons of fodder Jonin Uchiha running around during that time .


----------



## son_michael (Jul 1, 2012)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Any good reason why you think the Elder son chose Obito's body ?
> 
> I myself don't get why people think some XYZ took over Obito's body . He was just a Chunnin , had only one 2 tomoe sharingan , half of his body was crushed and was buried beneath rubble. Pretty sure there were tons of fodder Jonin Uchiha running around during that time .



Because obito is important to kakashi, he was the uchiha version of Naruto and his sharingan is awesome and it has almost the exact same powers as tobi's sharingan.


So excuse us for wanting an awesome dramatic reveal with an established character that we all are dying to see again as opposed to some random nobody or a few characters that got 1 panel during the entire course of the manga.

btw I don't like the elder son theory.


----------



## Escargon (Jul 1, 2012)

Funny how Kakashi is arriving in every god damn Tobi fight.

And Itachi telling that Naruto is just like Tobi was.


----------



## Talis (Jul 1, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Hi, i am jacamo.


Please add some more Tobito plotholes in ur sign.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 1, 2012)

If Tobi really is Obito in the movie, then I'm sure of the following:

Obito used by Madara, because in the manga Tobi's identity shouldn't be revealed before his mask cracks so it's another guy used by Madara. Easy job for Kish if he wants it.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 1, 2012)

Mateush said:


> If Tobi really is Obito in the movie, then I'm sure of the following:
> 
> Obito used by Madara, because in the manga Tobi's identity shouldn't be revealed before his mask cracks so it's another guy used by Madara. Easy job for Kish if he wants it.



Madara is dead. Tobi is not Madara.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 1, 2012)

son_michael said:


> Madara is dead. Tobi is not Madara.



I don't believe Tobi is Madara, but he met him at some point. Why would Kishi spoiler all it for us manga readers (if in the movie Tobi is Obito).


----------



## son_michael (Jul 1, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I don't believe Tobi is Madara, but he met him at some point. Why would Kishi spoiler all it for us manga readers (if in the movie Tobi is Obito).



well the only thing I can think of is he either blabbed off to some magazine and they published it or he doesn't care since the manga is ending and he gave it away. Or the most likely explanation...we weren't supposed to see his illegible handwriting spoilers  Maybe someone got them in secret and published them in a magazine or something.

I mean if you found out for sure that tobi is obito, wouldn't you want to read the manga even more to see the reveal? Really it doesn't matter if he spoils it or not I guess.


Another thing I heard in that movie thread is kishi has great involvement with the movie so that pretty much makes it cannon IMO


----------



## Mateush (Jul 1, 2012)

son_michael said:


> well the only thing I can think of is he either blabbed off to some magazine and they published it or he doesn't care since the manga is ending and he gave it away. Or the most likely explanation...we weren't supposed to see his illegible handwriting spoilers  Maybe someone got them in secret and published them in a magazine or something.
> 
> I mean if you found out for sure that tobi is obito, wouldn't you want to read the manga even more to see the reveal? Really it doesn't matter if he spoils it or not I guess.
> 
> ...



Well I can accept if he's Obito, as long the backstory is good. But it's disappointing to know it before his mask cracks, so I hope it's Izuna or another guy.


----------



## AVC (Jul 2, 2012)

Hey I just got a crazy theory on who Tobi might be. What if Tobi is... a *time-traveler Obito*!

So it begins with the day that Obito supposed died with the rockfalls, but instead of dying he *activated his Magenkyo Sharingan for the first time* and teleported out of there before the rocks crushed down on him. Like it was his first time doing it, he didn't know what he was doing, but because of using all or almost all his chakra on that move, *instead of just teleporting away, he somehow teleported into the past, in the time of Konoha founding*. By the time he arrived, he was almost dying, not just because half of his body was crushed, but also because he was almost out of chakra for that move. It was also *because of that time-traveling space-time migration that he have that kind of spiral pattern carved on his face that matches the first mask we saw him using in the manga*.

But he didn't die, *he was found out by non other than Madara Uchiha*, who had the luck of seeing Obito teleporting right before his eyes. Intrigued for what he just saw there, he saved him. After healed him, Madara and Obito had a talk on who they are, just for Obito find out he just traveled to the past. After they talk, Madara decided to make Obito his student and his right-hand for doing his goals.Madara trainded Obito to use his eye and taught him everything he knows. Madara taught him the risks of his Space-Time Migration jutsu, that he can't no longer travel to other times because he could just possibly die due to the extensive amount of chakra he would have to use, and that from then on, *he would be nobody because all his bonds belonged to the past, in other time, that he can no longer go*.

Time passes and Madara and Obito had formulated the Eye of the Moon Plan. At the time of Madara's death, Madara instructs Obito the continuation of the Plan, his ressurection through Rinne Tensei,* and to Obito use his name as his fake name if he needs too*. At that time, *Obito, through Madara influence, had become a different man that he used to be and become what we now know as Tobi*.

And the rest we can figure it out what happened.


----------



## Xparn (Jul 2, 2012)

By the way, where is the prof that it can't be Madara's brother?


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jul 2, 2012)

Xparn said:


> By the way, where is the prof that it can't be Madara's brother?


There is no proof.

Btw; hello there, fellow Swede.


----------



## NW (Jul 2, 2012)

Xparn said:


> By the way, where is the prof that it can't be Madara's brother?


Cuz, Madara said he was dead, and Izuna was seen in a coffin. Plus, Izuna's name wasn't even mentioned in the manga, so I'd say that makes him pretty irrelevant. Not as irrelevant as Kagami, of course, but still irrelevant.


----------



## forkandspoon (Jul 2, 2012)

Tobi = Obito .... cant wait for that damn mask to come off.


----------



## joshhookway (Jul 2, 2012)

Maybe Tobi is Naruto in the future


----------



## son_michael (Jul 2, 2012)

AVC said:


> Hey I just got a crazy theory on who Tobi might be. What if Tobi is... a *time-traveler Obito*!
> 
> So it begins with the day that Obito supposed died with the rockfalls, but instead of dying he *activated his Magenkyo Sharingan for the first time* and teleported out of there before the rocks crushed down on him. Like it was his first time doing it, he didn't know what he was doing, but because of using all or almost all his chakra on that move, *instead of just teleporting away, he somehow teleported into the past, in the time of Konoha founding*. By the time he arrived, he was almost dying, not just because half of his body was crushed, but also because he was almost out of chakra for that move. It was also *because of that time-traveling space-time migration that he have that kind of spiral pattern carved on his face that matches the first mask we saw him using in the manga*.
> 
> ...




I like it but obito was already crushed. That's why i think he had to have been saved.


----------



## DarkLord Omega (Jul 2, 2012)

Better be a good explanation to Obito being Tobi cause right now i see it as an asspull


----------



## AVC (Jul 2, 2012)

> I like it but obito was already crushed. That's why i think he had to have been saved.



No, after that the scene were Kakashi tells Rin to grab his hand before the site where Obito is stuck collapses.


----------



## Hexa (Jul 2, 2012)

son_michael said:


> just saw the thread but there doesn't seem to be cause for victory yet as shisui is supposebly tobi yet obito is also mentioned...seems all the translators are confused with kishi's scribbles



*Spoiler*: _movietalk_ 



I think it just has Tobi being referred to as "Madara(Obito)" (or potentially "Madara(Udon)", apparently it's not clear whether it says Obito or not) by Kishimoto in the script.  The mention of Shisui has to do with the "masked Naruto" in the movie.  The idea being that our Naruto is "Menma" (a different type of ramen topping) in the AU , and Shisui is "Naruto".


----------



## NW (Jul 2, 2012)

DarkLord Omega said:


> Better be a good explanation to Obito being Tobi cause right now i see it as an asspull


Well, it's not an "asspull" no matter how you put it. Kishi has had Tobi's identity planned from the start. He's obviously planned it out, so it's not an asspull.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 2, 2012)

I'm still not entirely convinced this means tobi is obito in the manga, it might just mean tobi is obito in the movie as part of some crazy genjutsu thing.

I'm not getting my hopes up


----------



## arokh (Jul 2, 2012)

It's still impossible to say. But at least now Obito believer's won't be called crazy any more with support from the author himself. People used to ridicule it even though all the signs were there. The name, the hair, the goofy attitude, S/T ms jutsu. After he was "revealed" to be Madara, Obito believers was ridiculed even though it was actually obvious that he wasn't Madara 

At this point it's starting to drive me insane. I'm losing sleep over not knowing! God damn I hope that mask comes off soon. And even though I always wished it was Obito, I'm starting to think it's not him. Just seems strange to reveal him in a movie. Unless it's going to happen in the manga very soon. Naruto did say he was going to take the mask off though... Could this really be it?


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 2, 2012)

There is no proof that Tobi knows Madara.  Madara could be referring to Zetsu when he says "him."  I believe when Kabuto talks about fake Madara and the plan Madara just [....].

Zetsu could be the link between Madara and Tobi if Tobi = Obito.

Most of Tobi's powers come from his eye so it is plossible if Rin dying triggered his MS to fight Minato as he used no other tech but S/T.  Not to mention his hatred of war and the ninja system.  Zetsu being his informant so he could impersonate Madara.


----------



## Xparn (Jul 2, 2012)

Lews Therin Telamon said:


> There is no proof.
> 
> Btw; hello there, fellow Swede.


So why wouldn't that of all persons be a possible theory :S It would be the best i guess if not for Rikoudous elder son, and how do you know im a swede? 


TobiUchiha111 said:


> Cuz, Madara said he was dead, and Izuna was seen in a coffin. Plus, Izuna's name wasn't even mentioned in the manga, so I'd say that makes him pretty irrelevant. Not as irrelevant as Kagami, of course, but still irrelevant.


I guess, but when you say "madara" you mean the real or Tobi-madara? Because if it was Tobi-Madara then it could be a lie as well...
As we see his brother in the coffin is kinda obvoius i guess if he didnt get resurrected somehow.


forkandspoon said:


> Tobi = Obito .... cant wait for that damn mask to come off.


Is it true that Tobi's identity reveals in the upcoming Naruto movie?


joshhookway said:


> Maybe Tobi is Naruto in the future


Yeah this wondering will never end, heck maybe hinata is Tobi.


----------



## Gonder (Jul 2, 2012)

son_michael said:


> I'm still not entirely convinced this means tobi is obito in the manga, it might just mean tobi is obito in the movie as part of some crazy genjutsu thing.
> 
> I'm not getting my hopes up



but Kakashi doesn't having obito Sharingan in the genjutsu


----------



## NW (Jul 2, 2012)

Xparn said:


> I guess, but when you say "madara" you mean the real or Tobi-madara? Because if it was Tobi-Madara then it could be a lie as well...
> As we see his brother in the coffin is kinda obvoius i guess if he didnt get resurrected somehow.
> 
> Is it true that Tobi's identity reveals in the upcoming Naruto movie?


Actually, it was the real madara who said it. I guess there's a chance that he was covering up and didn't want people to know his brother was Tobi. And, that guy we saw in the coffin could have been a Zetsu clone of Izuna that he used to fake his death. it seems unlikely but, overall, i wouldn't mind if it was him.



And, I highly doubt that tobi's identity will be revealed in the movie. If it is, it's either a fake reveal tobi out in the genjutsu or Tobi's identity has to be revealed within the next few manga chapters.


----------



## Xparn (Jul 2, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Actually, it was the real madara who said it. I guess there's a chance that he was covering up and didn't want people to know his brother was Tobi. And, that guy we saw in the coffin could have been a Zetsu clone of Izuna that he used to fake his death. it seems unlikely but, overall, i wouldn't mind if it was him.
> 
> 
> 
> And, I highly doubt that tobi's identity will be revealed in the movie. If it is, it's either a fake reveal tobi out in the genjutsu or Tobi's identity has to be revealed within the next few manga chapters.



Ah okey, yeah seems kinda unlikely but hey, the whole Tobi thing is unlikely, damn every theory except Elder son of rikodou seems to be unlikely. I hope the movie wont reveal his true identity.

EDIT: Nah, not even the elder son theory is logical... damn we all are in darkness :/


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jul 2, 2012)

Xparn said:


> So why wouldn't that of all persons be a possible theory :S It would be the best i guess if not for Rikoudous elder son, and how do you know im a swede?


The poll in this thread sucks. There are many more options which could be added, but for some reason, _this_ is the official discussion thread.

I know you're a Swede because of your name.


----------



## Xparn (Jul 2, 2012)

Lews Therin Telamon said:


> The poll in this thread sucks. There are many more options which could be added, but for some reason, _this_ is the official discussion thread.
> 
> I know you're a Swede because of your name.



Ah k  And yeah Add Elder son thoery! 
Even though you can't vote anymore anyway.


----------



## NW (Jul 2, 2012)

Xparn said:


> Ah okey, yeah seems kinda unlikely but hey, the whole Tobi thing is unlikely, damn every theory except Elder son of rikodou seems to be unlikely. I hope the movie wont reveal his true identity.
> 
> EDIT: Nah, not even the elder son theory is logical... damn we all are in darkness :/


Well, I'd say a certain few of the theories are likely, they just have a few holes. Of course every Tobi theory has holes, because we don't know enough about him to make a certain judgement, but whe Kishi reveals it, it will all make sense. to me, the only remaining logical Tobi candidates are:

-Obito

-Izuna

-Elder Son (Honestly, the only way it could be the Elder Son is if he's taking over different bodies or something. I have a feeling he could be in obito's body as obito's face would shock people but it might not be obito, just the Elder Son in his body.)

-Younger Son(I know it sounds weird, but I actually have a theory on this. if anyone wants to know it, I can PM it to you.)


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 3, 2012)

I think the sons of Rikudou have been ruled out, since Tobi didn't know the names of the bijuu, or that they had names at all for that matter.


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jul 3, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I think the sons of Rikudou have been ruled out, since Tobi didn't know the names of the bijuu, or that they had names at all for that matter.


That disproves nothing.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 3, 2012)

Lews Therin Telamon said:


> That disproves nothing.



What, you think the heirs of RS wouldn't be privy to such information?


----------



## Jad (Jul 3, 2012)

All my body points to Tobi being Obito for some weird reason. Just the name, the clues, the techniques. I think I'm putting my hand in the Tobi==Obito pool.

Though I did believe Tobi was the first Mizukage >_>


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jul 3, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> What, you think the heirs of RS wouldn't be privy to such information?


I don't think RS felt the need to tell them. The Elder Son didn't seem like a pet lover, either.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 3, 2012)

this thing about the movie revealing Tobi = Obito is horse shit, *even if* Tobi = Obito in the movie, its an alternate reality genjutsu so it wont be cannon until its cannon... i still think Tobi = Kagami, and Obito was his son 

and if its all a genjutsu, Tobi can make himself whoever he wants right? Tobi could easily make people think he is Obito, but this would point to the fact that Tobi (Kagami) and Obito are related

however, maybe we can take this as a sign that the Tobi reveal will be before Road to ninja is released... movie comes out July 28th, not long to wait

damn, ive never even watched a Naruto movie... but i might have to


----------



## Asherah (Jul 3, 2012)

jacamo said:


> this thing about the movie revealing Tobi = Obito is horse shit, *even if* Tobi = Obito in the movie, its an alternate reality genjutsu so it wont be cannon until its cannon... i still think Tobi = Kagami, and Obito was his son



Yeah. If anything, all the movie spoiler proves (if true) is that the Tobi in the manga is most definitely not Obito. There's no way Kishi would be giving out info like this before the big reveal in the manga. The spoiler means nothing.

IMO the only real candidates left are Izuna or ES. Failing those it's going to be a new character that fits into the story, like Nagato was.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 3, 2012)

Asherah said:


> Yeah. If anything, all the movie spoiler proves (if true) is that the Tobi in the manga is most definitely not Obito. There's no way Kishi would be giving out info like this before the big reveal in the manga. The spoiler means nothing.



i agree



Asherah said:


> IMO the only real candidates left are Izuna or ES. Failing those it's going to be a new character that fits into the story, like Nagato was.



Kagami would follow the Nagato pattern... just sayin


----------



## Ezekial (Jul 3, 2012)

*Tobi is Izuna, He "fought" at VOTE as well?*

Just had a thought... 

Izuna gave Madara his eyes right so Madara could awaken EMS, Let's say Izuna died...

Now Madara has EMS, Izuna is able to see through Madara's eyes as part of him, because Madara has Izuna's eyes, he watches from limbo as if he was Madara...

After, Madara gaines the Rinnegan and he revives Izuna, as Tobi, after his revivel they travel apart to persue the moons eye plan...

Madara on his death bed entrusts his Rinnegan to Nagato, but plans with Tobi/Izuna, to have him revived via RT...

Nagato dies and Tobi gains the Rinnegan "They were mine to begin with"

This theory would explain:

- Why Tobi knows details of VOTE 
- Why he said he was Madara 
- All his knowledge
- Why Madara & Tobi know each other  

The only flaw in this is why didn't he give the Rinnegan to Tobi to begin with?

This is rushed, but if Izuna was able to see through Madara's EMS in death then it could be very plausible... Question is why couldn't Itachi see through Sauce's? Or maybe he could?


----------



## Punished Pathos (Jul 3, 2012)

Plot Hole said:


> tobi identity came out today in a magazine about the new naruto movie it is obito. sorry everypony thats that check out the naruto movie thread for more details.



Trolling attempt?


----------



## Easley (Jul 3, 2012)

I don't believe Tobi is Obito but hopefully the movie coincides with the actual reveal (in the manga). It might be a clever way of building anticipation. Tobi's identity will be on people's minds... 25 days and counting!

I'm gonna stand by Tobi _not_ being an Uchiha. It's just a guess like every other theory, but it's plausible given his eye collection. Imagine if Tobi is a new character! Years of theorizing down the drain. Cruel, but amusing at the same time.


----------



## NW (Jul 3, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I think the sons of Rikudou have been ruled out, since Tobi didn't know the names of the bijuu, or that they had names at all for that matter.


I forgot about that. Well, that rules out the sons then. Only Izuna and Obito are left.



jacamo said:


> this thing about the movie revealing Tobi = Obito is horse shit, *even if* Tobi = Obito in the movie, its an alternate reality genjutsu so it wont be cannon until its cannon... i still think Tobi = Kagami, and Obito was his son
> 
> and if its all a genjutsu, Tobi can make himself whoever he wants right? Tobi could easily make people think he is Obito, but this would point to the fact that Tobi (Kagami) and Obito are related
> 
> ...


Actually, according to the translation, Tobi is actually Obito in the real world, and he sucks everyone into a genjutsu with a fake Tobi which is Shisui. So, this could also mean that Obito and Shisui are related, which could be more support for the theory. And that would explain how Tobi controlled Yagura.


And, Kishi wrote "Madara(Obito)" in the manuscript but I highly doubt he intends to actually reveal that, rather, he is using Shisui as a fake reveal, because it's preposterous to reveal Tobi's identity in a movie. But, he mostly just put that down because Tobi is Obito, not because he intends to reveal it anyway. At least, that's what I think, and that sounds like the most plausible explanation. So, basically, Obito still has a very large chance of being Tobi, and I think that manuscript from Kishi pretty much confirms it. So, Tobi is very possibly still canonically Obito.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 3, 2012)

lol I'm getting so excited, when I think of the years I spent on these forums arguing for tobi=obito and how people like easley and gameboy ridiculed me....This is gonna be like Christmas come early


----------



## ordycitizen (Jul 3, 2012)

Yeah, this can work too. I can see the possibilities. I like from the angle that Izuna has somehow similar look with Sasuke 
*Spoiler*: __ 




(which for selfish reason it will confirm my Elder Horus Younger Horus connection theory)​


. They are brothers. It has resonance with Itachi-Sasuke bond, Itachi gives hope to Sasuke, and Madara gives hope to Izuna. 

Madara said "It must be his doing" when he met the five kages for the first time. To whom he refers "His" for? It creates cloud of possibility as if he  knows his resurrecter. For us, it's Tobirama the person who most likely Madara knows able to do the Edo tensei Jutsu or another person such as Izuna who probably had studied the jutsu's wisdom. 

However, if Tobi is Izuna he might have enhanced his body with Uzumaki or Shodai DNA mixed with his body to support his rinnegan. Or is it really necessary ?

- Why Tobi knows details of VOTE: This could work if anybody stealthly watched the fight, someone like Zetsu maybe.

- Why he said he was Madara: In the Hokage summit, the name "Madara" can be used by anyone to rise fear and anxiety.

- All his knowledge: I'm okay with this.

- Why Madara & Tobi know each other: I thought it was Tobi who knows Madara, when Kabuto opened the 6th casket. I didn't know if it's reciprocal. Did I miss something?


----------



## Talis (Jul 3, 2012)

Gonna laugh so hard if Tobito is nothing gonna be revealed in movie.
If he doesn't= 100% Tobito cannon.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 3, 2012)

Honestly I never thought this may happen:


----------



## Ezekial (Jul 3, 2012)

Just popped into my head and I do think its very plausible


----------



## DUNGEON (Jul 3, 2012)

Hey if tobi is izuna,then why didnt madara give him rinnegan instead of nagato before dying?


----------



## Talis (Jul 3, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Honestly I never thought this may happen:


It already happened. :ho




*Spoiler*: __ 



second panel.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 3, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It already happened. :ho
> 
> 
> 
> ...




cant see the links


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jul 3, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It already happened. :ho
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What are you trying to say? You never see Tobi's Sharingan in any of those panels.


----------



## Talis (Jul 3, 2012)

Lews Therin Telamon said:


> What are you trying to say? You never see Tobi's Sharingan in any of those panels.


Thats the reason, Kishi hides the MS design because it's clearly a design which we saw before, aka Kakashis.


----------



## Easley (Jul 3, 2012)

son_michael said:


> lol I'm getting so excited, when I think of the years I spent on these forums arguing for tobi=obito and how people like easley and gameboy ridiculed me....This is gonna be like Christmas come early


Don't count your chickens just yet! If Tobi doesn't remove his mask _before_ the movie, it's highly unlikely that he is Obito. A major reveal should happen in the manga first. Assuming this "spoiler" is true of course.

I wonder if Tobi is playing a "who am I?" game. Shisui and Obito? Kishi could use all the fan theories to troll Naruto! I'd like that.

btw, I ridiculed the Tobito theory, not you. After chapter 364 I didn't want him to be anyone but Madara. He's a worthy villain. Obito is a poor substitute, not even close to his stature. 

Whoever Tobi is, let's hope his identity has been worth the wait. I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jul 3, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Thats the reason, Kishi hides the MS design because it's clearly a design which we saw before, aka Kakashis.


Ah, you've got a point. I'm also quite certain that Tobi is using Obito's right eye (and probably what's left of his body, too). 

Now the only question is, is it Obito's mind and soul aswell, or someone elses? I'm betting on Izuna's or Elder Son's soul in Obito's (Zetsu modified) body.


----------



## Kenzo (Jul 3, 2012)

Maybe you need to be a chakra powerhouse to use the rinnegan?

After losing to Hashirama fair and square he somehow managed to get Hashirama's DNA and went into hiding. He unlocked the rinnegan but the chakra requirement was too high and he knew he was going to die so he told Tobi to find someone with high chakra potential and he gave his eyes to a young Nagato.

This could also explain why Tobi only has the rinnegan in one of his eyes, because he can't handle both.


----------



## Ezekial (Jul 3, 2012)

Thats the only flaw in the theory, perhaps Izuna didnt have the chakra?


----------



## Kenzo (Jul 3, 2012)

That's what I mean.

Uchiha's aren't chakra powerhouses like the Senju or Uzumaki so if Madara wasn't able to handle it there would've been no point giving it to Tobi/Izuna.

And that's where Nagato comes in to the picture.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 3, 2012)

One thing there is no proof that Tobi and Madara know each other.  He could have gained the knowledge from someone else when he was recruited into akatsuki. 

Why would Izuna need a mask after being exposed?


----------



## Talis (Jul 3, 2012)

Madara said that he died, he was sad sad sad.
He died, he is still dead.


----------



## Ezekial (Jul 3, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> One thing there is no proof that Tobi and Madara know each other.  He could have gained the knowledge from someone else when he was recruited into akatsuki.
> 
> Why would Izuna need a mask after being exposed?



After Kabuto's chat with Madara it was pretty obvious that Madara knew Tobi 

The mask is to keep him pretty


----------



## jimbob631 (Jul 3, 2012)

people should understand there was a clear point to the kakashi gaiden beyond just explaining how Kakashi got the sharingan.  Clearly it served a greater purpose in foreshadowing Tobi.  Now I don't know if he 100% is Obito, but it makes sense, the plotholes aren't very big, it could easily be him, it explains the interactions he's had with kakashi and Minato, the gooey body, the S/T jutsu, etc.  I wouldn't be surprised though if Shisui and Izuna are connected as well.  Him being Obito doesn't mean his mind is Obito's, it could just be a vessel.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 3, 2012)

jimbob631 said:
			
		

> Him being Obito doesn't mean his mind is Obito's, it could just be a vessel.



Exactly.

Most people who bitch about "Tobito" are people who have arbitrarily decided that the theory _must_ only mean Obito has become evil and wants revenge on the world or something, just because they're so eager to jump on a bandwagon and have a voice.

There could be no better candidate for what's under Tobi's mask than Obito. It's obvious at this point, in my opinion. But it doesn't mean it's his soul.


----------



## insane111 (Jul 3, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Most people who bitch about "Tobito" are people who have arbitrarily decided that the theory _must_ only mean Obito has become evil and wants revenge on the world or something, just because they're so eager to jump on a bandwagon and have a voice.



Uh, probably because the vast majority of people who think it's Obito do think it's actually him. I can only count on one hand the number of people in this thread that I remember agreeing with me that it's someone using Obito's body(or just his eye), at least before the movie thing anyways.


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 3, 2012)

Lol, as if Kishi would reveal Tobi's identity like this. He is no idiot. 
His identity will be revealed in the manga and nowhere else. No matter what scribbles or movies or the anime or the databook says unless it's said in the manga as well you can just ignore it.

I'll keep sticking to my theory that Tobi isn't an Uchiha at all, but that he is the 3rd Mizukage. No matter how outlandish that may seem to some it's still far more likely than this nonsense. XD


----------



## Saunion (Jul 3, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> Lol, as if Kishi would reveal Tobi's identity like this. He is no idiot.



Tobi is Obito 100% confirmed then.


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jul 3, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> Lol, as if Kishi would reveal Tobi's identity like this. He is no idiot.
> His identity will be revealed in the manga and nowhere else. No matter what scribbles or movies or the anime or the databook says unless it's said in the manga as well you can just ignore it.
> 
> I'll keep sticking to my theory that Tobi isn't an Uchiha at all, but that he is the 3rd Mizukage. No matter how outlandish that may seem to some it's still far more likely than this nonsense. XD


Third Mizukage? That's what I call nonsense. I can't even recall him being mentioned in the manga, so it's pretty silly of you to say that he's more likely to be Tobi than any of the Uchiha candidates. Stop being so obnoxiously stubborn, it only makes you look stupid.


----------



## NW (Jul 3, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Gonna laugh so hard if Tobito is nothing gonna be revealed in movie.
> If he doesn't= 100% Tobito cannon.


Lol, yeah. I'm also gonna crack up at all the shitstorms that would start.



loool3 said:


> Thats the reason, Kishi hides the MS design because it's clearly a design which we saw before, aka Kakashis.


There's really nothing else he could be hiding.



Easley said:


> Don't count your chickens just yet! If Tobi doesn't remove his mask _before_ the movie, it's highly unlikely that he is Obito. A major reveal should happen in the manga first. Assuming this "spoiler" is true of course.
> 
> I wonder if Tobi is playing a "who am I?" game. Shisui and Obito? Kishi could use all the fan theories to troll Naruto! I'd like that.
> 
> ...


For some reason, the way you post makes you sound evil or something, lol. Tone it down. About you saying Obito being a poor villain, that's not true. You see, Tobi himself has already proven to be a great villain, so no matter who he is, that doesn't effect his villainous status. Plus, obito used to be an EXACT parallel to naruto, so an evil Obito would be the best possible final villain for the series.



shintebukuro said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Most people who bitch about "Tobito" are people who have arbitrarily decided that the theory _must_ only mean Obito has become evil and wants revenge on the world or something, just because they're so eager to jump on a bandwagon and have a voice.
> 
> There could be no better candidate for what's under Tobi's mask than Obito. It's obvious at this point, in my opinion. But it doesn't mean it's his soul.


If it was just his body being used, then it's not really Obito. Thus, the twist wouldn't be as dramatic.



bearzerger said:


> Lol, as if Kishi would reveal Tobi's identity like this. He is no idiot.
> His identity will be revealed in the manga and nowhere else. No matter what scribbles or movies or the anime or the databook says unless it's said in the manga as well you can just ignore it.
> 
> I'll keep sticking to my theory that Tobi isn't an Uchiha at all, but that he is the 3rd Mizukage. No matter how outlandish that may seem to some it's still far more likely than this nonsense. XD


You do realize the databook is written by Kishi, right? I'm sure he wouldn't fill it with a bunch of lies just to troll us. If Kishi says something regarding the manga, I'm pretty sure it's not bullshit. At this point, Tobito has about a 95% chance of being true. It all depends on whether Kishi reveals Tobito in the movie or not. Or, he might reveal it before the movie.



Saunion said:


> Tobi is Obito 100% confirmed then.


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 3, 2012)

Saunion said:


> Tobi is Obito 100% confirmed then.



XD sure 



Lews Therin Telamon said:


> Third Mizukage? That's what I call nonsense. I can't even recall him being mentioned in the manga, so it's pretty silly of you to say that he's more likely to be Tobi than any of the Uchiha alternatives. Stop being so obnoxiously stubborn, it only makes you look stupid.



I'd say all those claims that Tobi is Obito or Shisui or any of the Uchiha we know are far more stupid. My theory has little to no evidence in favour it's really just wild ass guessery, but all the Uchiha we know have strong evidence against them. Shisui is too young and as is Obito, besides Obito would have to make a complete 180 personality wise. Fugaku is dead unless he used Izanagi to trick Itachi. Madara has also been shown as false and Izuna is really unlikely since Madara sure as hell doesn't act as if Tobi was his brother. That leaves who? Uchiha Kagami? A guy whose name we only know from the databook and who had a one panel appearance in the manga. That's really no better than me saying it's the 3rd Mizukage.

Clinging to something that's patently false is a lot more stupid in my opinion than betting on something completely unexpected.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 3, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> After Kabuto's chat with Madara it was pretty obvious that Madara knew Tobi
> 
> The mask is to keep him pretty



Honestly, it could be anyone he assumed.  The best evidence comes from Tobi himself.  Though Tobi could have hijack someone elses plan.


----------



## Klue (Jul 3, 2012)

How are we to take this theory seriously unless you can provide some evidence that Izuna can see through Madara's eyes while in limbo.

Not to say that your ideas aren't interesting - definitely are.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 3, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> XD sure
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How about Tobi being the Elder Son? That would explain how he knows so much about Rikudou Sannin and why he is so supporting the curse of hatred.

Or maybe he is some Uzumaki of note...maybe even the clan's former leader? It would give him a link with Naruto and explain how he knew about Nagato being an Uzumaki too.

Tobi os mostly a schemer but even though he is not as strong as Madara he isn't a weakling. Controlling all those bijuus according to Kakashi is very difficult and he was able to give Minato some trouble even before he got Rinnegan. on top of that it is almost guaranteed that he will have a one-on-one fight with Naruto and will lose just barely with Naruto using possibly not only Kurama's power but the other bijuus power too. 

Even if Tobi falls here, his end must be quite epic for someone who affected Naruto's life so much.


----------



## Kali95 (Jul 3, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> XD sure
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, none of them make any sense. In case it still wasn't obvious enough, this last chapter pretty much stomped out whatever was left of the Fugaku and Shisui theories. Izuna theory is already dead, and Kagami was clearly a 1 panel filler character.


----------



## NW (Jul 3, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> XD sure
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, if Tobi isn't revealed as Obito in the movie, then Tobi being Obito is 100% canonically confirmed.

Now, you say Obito would be too young, but I disagree. Those "wrinkles" could actually be his damaged skin from then boulder that landed on half of him.

And, what's wrong with a character changing personality and morals? 

Let's list how many characters have changed already:


Sasuke
Orochimaru
Gaara
Neji
Nagato
Konan

There's probably more too. 

So, I have no idea why you think Obito couldn't have changed.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 3, 2012)

There's plenty of precedent for characters that were "good" becoming evil because of shitty circumstances.

I don't know why people would find it surprising if this were reprised again.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 3, 2012)

Itachi couldn't/can't see what Sasuke's doing with his eyes.

I see no reason why Izuna would be able to.

Tobi simply lied.


----------



## Wanderlust (Jul 3, 2012)

Still don't understand why Kisame would be happy about who is behind the mask.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 3, 2012)

Ventus said:


> Still don't understand why Kisame would be happy about who is behind the mask.



Because it meant the person he was working for was the same the whole time.


----------



## DUNGEON (Jul 3, 2012)

As i suspected..


----------



## Escargon (Jul 3, 2012)

I think those wrinkles are Madara DNA, there are us who read the manga from when Tobi showed his face for the first time and we were toldabout Madaras story.

Yes, the theories was that Madara had a scar thru half of his face, time changes..

Those two faces matched, cause Kishi wanted to make us belivie Tobi is Madara i think.

Even if it can be true that those wrinkles are due to boulder damage why did Kishi trick us? Its so lame showing a damaged face that looks like an old Uchiha and then show us some "fake" flashbacks.

Im not saying youre wrong or im right, i just mean i hope Obito got Madaras DNA for some reason. But thats just my opinion.

Maybe it sounds anticlimatic that Obito implanted Madara cells to show that part of his face to fool people like Kisame.


----------



## Klue (Jul 3, 2012)

Funny that Kabuto reveals the Sixth Coffin to Tobi, and still he goes on to tell Kabuto that he grew a clone of Hashirama from DNA he stole from him during their battle.


*Spoiler*: __ 





*Spoiler*: _Sixth Coffin_ 










*Spoiler*: _I fought Hashirama_


----------



## NW (Jul 3, 2012)

Escargon said:


> I think those wrinkles are Madara DNA, there are us who read the manga from when Tobi showed his face for the first time and we were toldabout Madaras story.
> 
> Yes, the theories was that Madara had a scar thru half of his face, time changes..
> 
> ...


His face actually looks alot like obito's from what we've seen. I think his face is entirely his. It just makes more sense if it's from the boulder. It just "fits" better if you know what I mean.


----------



## Saunion (Jul 3, 2012)

So wait does it mean Obito was 14 when he fought Minato? If it's really him, I kinda fear for the bullshit Kishimoto is going to come up with to try and make sense of that mess...


----------



## NW (Jul 3, 2012)

Saunion said:


> So wait does it mean Obito was 14 when he fought Minato? If it's really him, I kinda fear for the bullshit Kishimoto is going to come up with to try and make sense of that mess...


it's actually not impossible. Look at Kakashi here: 

Kakashi looks pretty much around Tobi's height. Also, Obito was taller than Kakashi in Gaiden.



And, the attack happened I'd say about 2-3 years after Gaiden, so Kakashi and Obito would be around 15 - 16, so it's totally not implausible.

(Credit to Sutol for the images.)


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Jul 3, 2012)

Saunion said:


> So wait does it mean Obito was 14 when he fought Minato? If it's really him, I kinda fear for the bullshit Kishimoto is going to come up with to try and make sense of that mess...



Obito was 14 during Kakashi Gaiden.  He would have been 16 when he fought Minato, IIRC...


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 3, 2012)

KaaN23 said:


> That's what I mean.
> 
> Uchiha's aren't chakra powerhouses like the Senju or Uzumaki so if Madara wasn't able to handle it there would've been no point giving it to Tobi/Izuna.
> 
> And that's where Nagato comes in to the picture.



lol? uchiha awakened those eyes, it is rightfully theirs (bcuz its a doujutsu), those eyes suit no one better than a real uchiha. but madara gave the eyes to nagato, because tobi is a weak ass "im a shell of my former self" his body is composed of zetsu, and is tobi even a uchiha? nagato was the better choice

oh and the uchiha are chakra monsters. it's supported in the manga that uchiha chakra are unparalleled


----------



## MYJC (Jul 3, 2012)

Klue said:


> Funny that Kabuto reveals the Sixth Coffin to Tobi, and still he goes on to tell Kabuto that he grew a clone of Hashirama from DNA he stole from him during their battle.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



You're right, that IS interesting. I guess you could interpret it differently depending on who you think Tobi is. 

If he's Izuna, it could make sense. Izuna lived during the 1st Hokage's time and would probably have fought Hashirama on multiple occasions. Had Madara revived him somehow he could've been around during VotE.

If he's a clone of Madara, then perhaps the real Madara implanted his memories into Tobi.


----------



## ChosenOne (Jul 3, 2012)

*Mark My Words!!  Tobi is one of Naruto's ancestors...Yes, an evil Uzumaki...*



Come to think of it Kishi never showed us the dark side of the Uzumaki..we all saw Kushina, Nagato and Naruto (regardless of Karin) and they were all good guys after all.

Another proof is the obsession with tailed beasts, which they are known for their great durability to contain them. To help my case, we all remember the beginning of the Naruto, Bee, Kakashi and Guy Vs Tobi where we saw the same chains that came from Tobi to contain the beasts...Same ones came from Kushina to tame Kyuubi.

Any Thoughts?


----------



## Mdri (Jul 3, 2012)

I think no-one thought about this before .


----------



## iJutsu (Jul 3, 2012)

Pretty sure those chains where from GM. Maybe it's powered by Uzumaki souls?


----------



## Klue (Jul 3, 2012)

Nagato, technically was an evil Uzumaki for sometime. Killed elderly, women and children.

Still, not a bad idea.


----------



## Yoshioka Seijuro (Jul 3, 2012)

Klue said:


> Nagato, technically was an evil Uzumaki for sometime. Killed elderly, women and children.
> 
> Still, not a bad idea.



And so was Karin (she did side with Orochimaru, and later, Sasuke).


----------



## jimbob631 (Jul 3, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> XD sure
> 
> Shisui is too young and as is Obito, besides Obito would have to make a complete 180 personality wise.



Obito would be 16 fighting Minato and look at how tall Kakashi is at that time.  Also Tobi's body is made of goop, for all we know it added height as well.


----------



## Klue (Jul 3, 2012)

Tobi is a clone created from Hashirama and Madara's DNA, he later assimilated Obito's right eye, and possibly a portion of his face.

But he isn't actually Obito - wouldn't make sense, not at all. Madara died during Nagato's early childhood, a decade prior to Obito's own birth.

Doesn't add up.


----------



## NW (Jul 3, 2012)

Klue said:


> Tobi is a clone created from Hashirama and Madara's DNA, he later assimilated Obito's right eye, and possibly a portion of his face.
> 
> But he isn't actually Obito - wouldn't make sense, not at all. Madara died during Nagato's early childhood, a decade prior to Obito's own birth.
> 
> Doesn't add up.


That first theory is stupid, what kind of reveal would _that_ be? Ah, whatever. Anyway, Tobi's identity can't just be "aw, just for the heck of it". No, it has to mean something to the plot. The only person I could see fitting as Tobi in this case is Obito. Maybe Izuna, but I doubt it. 

I actually DO have arguments to refute your second part of the message, but I've said them so many times that I'm not even going to bother.


----------



## jimbob631 (Jul 3, 2012)

Klue said:


> Tobi is a clone created from Hashirama and Madara's DNA, he later assimilated Obito's right eye, and possibly a portion of his face.
> 
> But he isn't actually Obito - wouldn't make sense, not at all. Madara died during Nagato's early childhood, a decade prior to Obito's own birth.
> 
> Doesn't add up.



Are we sure he died during Nagato's early childhood?  All he said was Nagato grew up, that could be a number of different ages.


----------



## Talis (Jul 3, 2012)

Long haired masked man was the real Madara which alife around Nagato's 20s.


----------



## Klue (Jul 3, 2012)

jimbob631 said:


> Are we sure he died during Nagato's early childhood?  All he said was Nagato grew up, that could be a number of different ages.



Madara said he died shortly after awakening the Rinnegan. If Tobi is to be believed, and either he or Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan, then Madara died during Nagato's childhood.

Otherwise, there is another pair of Rinnegan eyes floating around somewhere.


----------



## NW (Jul 3, 2012)

Klue said:


> Madara said he died shortly after awakening the Rinnegan. If Tobi is to be believed, and either he or Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan, then Madara died during Nagato's childhood.
> 
> Otherwise, there is another pair of Rinnegan eyes floating around somewhere.


Well, considering that Madara wasn't shocked at ALL at being revived with his eyes, when he thought it was Rinne Tensei, i think it's very possible that Madara merely gave Nagato the requirements to awaken the Rinnegan, so Nagato's eyes might not be Madara's.


----------



## jimbob631 (Jul 4, 2012)

Klue said:


> Madara said he died shortly after awakening the Rinnegan. If Tobi is to be believed, and either he or Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan, then Madara died during Nagato's childhood.
> 
> Otherwise, there is another pair of Rinnegan eyes floating around somewhere.



We still don't know the details of this at all, its unclear if Madara actually gave his eyes or enabled the conditions for it to be awakened.


----------



## Timeshift (Jul 4, 2012)

If it was Obito - what is his reasoning for the war? How did he become this warmonger?


----------



## jacamo (Jul 4, 2012)

lol Tobi wont be Obito

Nagato is much older than Obito... shit doesnt add up


----------



## NW (Jul 4, 2012)

Timeshift said:


> If it was Obito - what is his reasoning for the war? How did he become this warmonger?


We simply don't know. That's the surprise.



jacamo said:


> lol Tobi wont be Obito
> 
> Nagato is much older than Obito... shit doesnt add up


Why would Obito have to be as old as Nagato to be Tobi? His age is fine. And, if Tobi is Kagami, explain this: controlling him is his right and part of his Uchiha heritage

Come to think of it, kagami might be Obito and Shisui's father after all. It doesn't mean he's Tobi, but if Kagami actually was evil and discriminated against, then that would make sense that Madara might tell Obito about what happened to his father, and Obito might not see him as evil and want revenge for him. Rin's death also could have something to do with his motive.


----------



## itsamemario (Jul 4, 2012)

I have a feeling Tobi is some failed attempt at either a cloning of Madara, Failed first attempt at an edo Tensei, or partially failed soul transfer.


----------



## Kid (Jul 4, 2012)

Tobi is Akamaru.


----------



## DUNGEON (Jul 4, 2012)

IceBc said:


> Tobi is Akamaru.



Bingo. Now everything makes sense.


----------



## NW (Jul 4, 2012)

itsamemario said:


> I have a feeling Tobi is some failed attempt at either a cloning of Madara, Failed first attempt at an edo Tensei, or partially failed soul transfer.


None of those make sense. Plus they're way too anti-climactic. So, they're ruled out.


----------



## Wampa (Jul 4, 2012)

has anyone ever noticed  Sarutobi has TOBI in it?


----------



## Kid (Jul 4, 2012)

Wampa said:


> has anyone ever noticed  Sarutobi has TOBI in it?



So has TOBIrama


----------



## jacamo (Jul 4, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> We simply don't know. That's the surprise.
> 
> Why would Obito have to be as old as Nagato to be Tobi?



coz he GAVE him the Rinnegan


----------



## Easley (Jul 4, 2012)

jacamo said:


> coz he GAVE him the Rinnegan


That is a problem, unless the real Madara gave him the Rinnegan, and Tobi lied _again_? No, I think he's telling the truth. Not only was this important plot exposition but he told it to Konan on her death bed. Nothing to be gained by lying. Tobi can't possibly be Obito if he gave Nagato the Rinnegan.

I'm thinking logically of course, but who knows what Kishi has in mind.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 4, 2012)

Easley said:


> That is a problem, unless the real Madara gave him the Rinnegan, and Tobi lied _again_?



Which is precisely what was implied when he went on to say that he is "the third Rikudou Sennin".

Tobi no more meant that he, himself (as in, for the moment, "no one"), gave the Rinnegan to Nagato than he meant that he, himself, took Hashirama's DNA.

Thus, Obito would no more have to be old enough to give Nagato the Rinnegan _than he would to take Hashirama's DNA_, since he'd only be pretending to be the real Madara.


----------



## Easley (Jul 5, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> Which is precisely what was implied when he went on to say that he is "the third Rikudou Sennin".
> 
> Tobi no more meant that he, himself (as in, for the moment, "no one"), gave the Rinnegan to Nagato than he meant that he, himself, took Hashirama's DNA.
> 
> Thus, Obito would no more have to be old enough to give Nagato the Rinnegan _than he would to take Hashirama's DNA_, since he'd only be pretending to be the real Madara.


Implied does not mean confirmed. 

The entire scene with Konan would be very strange if Tobi was speaking in third person. Yes, he's acting as Madara, but it's still ridiculous to lie about himself. Konan is almost dead. The Madara twist makes past chapters seem incoherent.

There is another thing to consider: How did Tobi get all this knowledge?  Even acting as someone you need to _know_ that person. Anyone can put on a mask, but to fool people you need personal information. Tobi has talked about Izuna, the reason he fought Hashirama, and other stuff that only Madara would know. Tobi has obviously met the real Madara, which makes him older than Obito.


----------



## Rhythmic- (Jul 5, 2012)

He's obviously a mixture of Madara and Orochimaru.


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 5, 2012)

*Uchiha Kagami: The Man Behind the Mask*

Tobi might be Uchiha Kagami. 

1. Danzou could have learned the requirement of Uchiha plus Senju cells to perform Izanagi from Kagami when they were still together in Tobirama's team. Kagami would be of the same age as Danzou by now if he still lives. 

2. Kagami could have been Madara's spy / apprentice and he fits the timeline up until Nagato was born. This explains how Tobi knew a lot about Madara. When Kyuubi attacked Konoha 16 years ago the only ones who were not there are Danzou and Kagami along with all of the Uchihas. 

3. Tobi was never seen wielding the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan unlike Madara. 

4. He could have used the name "Tobi" after Tobirama, his former squad leader. 

5. Minato said aside from himself Tobirama Senju was also a master of Space-Time jutsu. Kagami could have copied Tobirama's space-time jutsu with his Sharingan and came up with his own. 

6. I was checking out the previous chapters in which Tobi was fighting Fuu and Torune and I've just figured out that Tobi  knew Torune's dad, Aburame Shikuro.

How did he know Torune's dad? Tobi might be of the same generation or just a generation older than Aburame Shikuro. Hiruzen's son Asuma is of the same generation as Torune. So if Hiruzen, Danzou, and Kagami were of the same generation it would make sense why Tobi knew Aburame Shikuro IF he really is Uchiha Kagami behind the mask.


7. Danzo and Tobi had the same vision about uniting the shinobi world. IF Tobi is Uchiha Kagami it means he shared the same principle as Danzou. 

8. Tobi knew the exact location where Kushina is to give birth. Hiruzen, his wife Biwako, Taji of the ANBU, and ANBU under Hiruzen's command are the only people who knew about the secret. So who else could have possibly known about it? Danzou. Go back to the panel of all of the Konoha elders holding off Kyuubi outside Konoha's walls. The only ones missing were Danzou and Kagami.

9. This one is solid proof that Danzo and Tobi were partners in crime: It came from Tobi's mouth. He conspired with Danzou during the Uchiha massacre. This explains the stockpile of Sharingans in Tobi's possession. He took the Uchihas' eyes during the Uchiha massacre. Danzou got Shisui's eye prior to that. Tobi and Danzo has been using each other to achieve their personal goals. So else could be closer to Danzou? Yes that's correct. Uchiha Kagami. After all they were of the same group and of the same age as the Konoha Elders.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 5, 2012)

Issue:

When would he have had a chance to fight Hashirama if Tobirama was the 2nd hokage by the time we see him? No way he could have fought before or he woulden't still be in Konoha.

It's Izuna.


----------



## hellohi (Jul 5, 2012)

Also, Danzou called Tobi 'Madara' in his thoughts.


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 5, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Issue:
> 
> When would he have had a chance to fight Hashirama if Tobirama was the 2nd hokage by the time we see him? No way he could have fought before or he woulden't still be in Konoha.
> 
> It's Izuna.



Tobi never fought Hashirama. He lied to Sasuke. He was posing as Madara until Kabuto proved that the real Madara is dead and revived Madara using Edo Tensei. That's why Tobi was shocked when he saw Edo Madara. Because he knows that once Madara comes back his secret will be revealed. Tobi is an impostor.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 5, 2012)

kiroisenko said:


> Tobi never fought Hashirama. He lied to Sasuke. He was posing as Madara until Kabuto proved that the real Madara is dead and revived Madara using Edo Tensei. That's why Tobi was shocked when he saw Edo Madara. Because he knows that once Madara comes back his secret will be revealed. Tobi is an impostor.



Yes, Tobi did fight Hashirama

He was with Kabuto and Zetsu, both know perfectly well he isn't Madara. So why lie?


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 5, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Yes, Tobi did fight Hashirama
> 
> He was with Kabuto and Zetsu, both know perfectly well he isn't Madara. So why lie?



Tobi is a liar. 

There is absolutely no manga page showing him fighting Hashirama.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 5, 2012)

kiroisenko said:


> Tobi is a liar.
> 
> There is absolutely no manga page showing him fighting Hashirama.



There is absolutely no manga page showing Kagami being Tobi.

I repeat: Tobi has NO REASON to lie in front of people who know he isn't Madara. It would be like he is lying for some imaginary audience.


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 5, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> There is absolutely no manga page showing Kagami being Tobi.
> 
> I repeat: Tobi has NO REASON to lie in front of people who know he isn't Madara. It would be like he is lying for some imaginary audience.



That's why the 1st sentence on the OP says, "might". It's a theory.

You, on the other hand, claim that Tobi has indeed fought Hashirama.

But you can't provide a manga page backing up your claim.


----------



## Target (Jul 5, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Yes, Tobi did fight Hashirama
> 
> He was with Kabuto and Zetsu, both know perfectly well he isn't Madara. So why lie?



kubo getting confused is possible ;o


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 5, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> There is absolutely no manga page showing Kagami being Tobi.
> 
> I repeat: Tobi has NO REASON to lie in front of people who know he isn't Madara. It would be like he is lying for some imaginary audience.



Lol, Tobi is likely crazy.  Being so goofy to serious.  

I am conviced he's Obito now.  This chapter kind of seals the deal for me because of his emotional attachment to the mask.  If he was Kagami or anyone else that wouldn't be recognized why would he be so emotional about being no one and the mask?  Not to mention Tobi's limited attacks and damaged body, likely hidden MS(If not Obito's why hid the pattern?), similar S/T to Obito's eye and the opposite, Rin's mysterious death(why unexplained all this time unless to be pulled out for later?).  

I think when talking about "him" Madara was talking about Oro because he was an EDO.  Oro was likely the only one left alive to know the EDO tech when Madara was alive.


----------



## Ezekial (Jul 5, 2012)

Nah he's Izuna... Or Orochimaru


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jul 5, 2012)

You forgot the most important part: Kagami's got the exact same hair as Tobi.


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 5, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Lol, Tobi is likely crazy.  Being so goofy to serious.
> 
> I am conviced he's Obito now.  This chapter kind of seals the deal for me because of his emotional attachment to the mask.  If he was Kagami or anyone else that wouldn't be recognized why would he be so emotional about being no one and the mask?  Not to mention Tobi's limited attacks and damaged body, likely hidden MS(If not Obito's why hid the pattern?), similar S/T to Obito's eye and the opposite, Rin's mysterious death(why unexplained all this time unless to be pulled out for later?).
> 
> I think when talking about "him" Madara was talking about Oro because he was an EDO.  Oro was likely the only one left alive to know the EDO tech when Madara was alive.



The Tobito theory, or "Tobi is Obito" theory claims that Obito's body is being used by Tobi/Madara as a shell/container.

This claim with all its evidence, basically rests on the assumption that Obito has survived or his body was taken by Madara and used as his container.

In this essay, I will argue that it is least likely, if not impossible, that Obito may have survived and/or that his body may have not been recovered by Konoha but was taken by Madara to be used as his container.


THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE STRICTLY BASED FROM FACTS IN THE MANGA:

At Chapter 244 page 19, the last panel of the Kakashi Gaiden, we can clearly see the tombstone where Kakashi laid down flowers and Obito's goggles.
middle of the  page

"If Kakashi found it important to retrieve Obito's goggles, then he would have retrieved Obito's body also. Of course, the body of Kakashi's friend, comrade,and savior would be of greater importance than his goggles."

Surely we will have noticed that Obito was not wearing his goggles anymore as he and Kakashi went to save Rin and confront the rock nin. He was not even wearing the goggles when those rocks fell on him. So it is possible that his goggles and body may not be at the same location where the rockslide happened.

But the main argument here is that Kakashi VALUED his friend so much that he even retrieved his goggles. Would he not value the body of his friend and savior who was buried underneath a rubble of rocks? Would he allow his comrade's body to rot on enemy ground? Surely he would retrieve it! If you have a friend who gave his life and his eye for you, would you care enough to retrieve his body? I don't think you can live with yourself knowing that you left your friend to die and even did not bother to give him a proper burial. That is sick. As Obito and Kakashi would say, "Those who don't take care of their comrades are worse than trash!"

Obito: middle of the  page
Kakashi: middle of the  page

This is arguing merely on the basis of bonds, or valuing friends. This is notwithstanding the fact that Obito's body is the body of an Uchiha, who is naturally a carrier of the secrets of the Sharingan bloodlimit. Kakashi's sharingan is proof enough that the body of an Uchiha could be "exploited" in order to acquire the Sharingan and not only to understand its weakness. Hunter nins (or for Konoha, the ANBU) are tasked to keep/defend the secrets of the village.  As a matter of principle and of duty, ANBU would never leave Obito's body under that rubble of rocks. (See further argument and references below.)

If this argument is sound, it can be accepted as confirmatory evidence to the fact that in the Kakashi Gaiden, all the main characters behaved in such a way that heavily suggests that Obito has INDEED perished in that mission. 

A recap of the FACTS:

(1) Kakashi Gaiden clearly states the cause of death: Obito was crushed twice by an avalanche of falling rocks.

First rockfall: middle of the  page
Second rockfall: middle of the  page


(2) Obito himself said he was dying. 

Obito: "It looks like it's over for me. The right side of my body is almost smashed. There is no feeling in it."
middle of the  page

Obito:"I'm already going to die."

middle of the  page


On this angle you can't argue about depth perception anymore.  That panel clearly shows the huge rock going right through Obito's face CRUSHING his right eye.  You can't deny it.  His right eye is gone.  Tobi has a right eye.  Thus Tobi is not Obito.


(3) Rin, a medical ninja, affirmed that to be the case, thus she agreed on having the high-level eye transplant medical jutsu. 

see middle of the  page


(4) Yondaime confirmed Obito's death according to Rin's statement, and apologized for coming in too late. 

middle of the  page


Even if Obito's body has not been buried, it is most likely that it has been burned/destroyed -- in accordance to the hidden village rule to dispose bodies that could be exploited by enemies to reveal the secrets or the weakness of the clan or the village. This principle is affirmed by Kakashi in the Zabuza-Haku vs. Team 7 arc about hunter nins, a.k.a. body erasers, disposing of the bodies of Shinobi that contain many secrets.

"Body erasing teams usually dispose of the body they killed right there." The picture shows a hunter nin burning a corpse.
middle of the  page

"If he needed proof of his work, he could have just taken the head."
middle of the  page


^ Proof that Konoha has body-erasers is in this statement of Kakashi (on Kabuto and Konoha's body-erasers):

middle of the  page

Kakashi knows this as he was an ANBU commander and also because of his previous experience of the death of Obito.

I think bringing proof is a standard requirement that the clean-up mission was successful. So there is no way Konoha would think that Obito could have survived, or that his Sharingan was taken by the enemy. (that is, especially if the ANBU brought Obito's head home).

In other words, Konoha could not have been mistaken in declaring Obito's death and making a memorial for a Shinobi that could in fact be alive. There is no doubt, therefore, about Obito's death.

Sure it was not shown that the Konoha shinobis or the ANBU recovered Obito's body from under the rubble but the fact that Kakashi visits his grave/memorial in Konoha and it was not just a memorial for missing-in-action nins. That "excavation" scene is not anymore necessary.

Obito was not even missing-in-action; he was killed-in-action. Obito's teammates know exactly where his body was crushed by the falling rocks, and in honor of his heroic death (he saved Rin from the enemies and Kakashi from the rockfall and probable death) they gave him a proper burial. That would be the least they could do for a friend, hero, and honorable shinobi who offered his life for his friends and his mission.

On top of all these evidences there is no way that the Yondaime would just leave Obito's remains in enemy territory.  Konoha did what it has to do.  It took care of Obito's remains to make sure that it wouldn't end up in the hands of the enemy.

Obito died young, his body was much smaller than Tobi's, a fully-grown man who appears to be at least 60 years old judging from the wrinkles on his face when he took off his mask. So if Madara used Obito's dead body, he would be much smaller and younger, yet he appears even taller and more built than Obito. 

Minato tagged him as a "MAN behind the mask" when they fought 16 years ago, a few months after Obito died, which means Minato didn't fight a small kid but a fully grown man.

CONCLUSION:

With the overwhelming evidence for Obito's death and the complete absence of any suggestion in the manga that Obito has survived or that his body has never been recovered, it is very much unlikely, if not downright impossible,  that Tobi's body is Obito's.


----------



## iJutsu (Jul 5, 2012)

And Itachi couldn't figure this out, even though their generations are closer?


----------



## GoDMasteR (Jul 5, 2012)

Maybe "Tobi" fought against Hashirama years later... and he's responsible for his death..

We know that he is Madara's subordinate (or better... an ally, depends how you put it). It's possible that Madara said to him everthing about Uchiha's and Konoha's segrets.


----------



## Kushimaru Kuriarare (Jul 5, 2012)

Tobi is Orochimaru <3


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 5, 2012)

GoDMasteR said:


> Maybe "Tobi" fought against Hashirama years later... and he's responsible for his death..
> 
> We know that he is Madara's subordinate (or better... an ally, depends how you put it). It's possible that Madara said to him everthing about Uchiha's and Konoha's segrets.



He never said that he fought Hashirama years after Madara was defeated at the Valley of the End.

No manga evidence supports that claim.

But it is obvious that Madara imparted his knowledge to Tobi before Madara died.


----------



## Gonder (Jul 5, 2012)

Klue said:


> Madara said he died shortly after awakening the Rinnegan. If Tobi is to be believed, and either he or Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan, then Madara died during Nagato's childhood.
> 
> Otherwise, there is another pair of Rinnegan eyes floating around somewhere.



tobi is a compulsive liar so i don,t believe a word he says


----------



## Freechoice (Jul 5, 2012)

I would hate it sooo much if Tobi actually was Obito like everyone keeps saying.


----------



## Kid (Jul 5, 2012)

Finally..he showed himself...


----------



## Mateush (Jul 5, 2012)

Easley said:


> Implied does not mean confirmed.
> 
> The entire scene with Konan would be very strange if Tobi was speaking in third person. Yes, he's acting as Madara, but it's still ridiculous to lie about himself. Konan is almost dead. The Madara twist makes past chapters seem incoherent.
> 
> There is another thing to consider: How did Tobi get all this knowledge?  Even acting as someone you need to _know_ that person. Anyone can put on a mask, but to fool people you need personal information. Tobi has talked about Izuna, the reason he fought Hashirama, and other stuff that only Madara would know. Tobi has obviously met the real Madara, which makes him older than Obito.



I agree you completely. In a few chapters it absolutely would be ridiculous if Tobi lied to himself, almost like dissociative identity disorder 

Though the upcoming movie seems to imply that Tobi may be Obito, so I'm confused. But knowing Kishi I'm pretty sure he could explain all it pretty well. There are always ways to avoid plotholes.


----------



## Gonder (Jul 5, 2012)

freechoice33 said:


> I would hate it sooo much if Tobi actually was Obito like everyone keeps saying.


 
you have two choices my friend his either obito himself or someone else using obito dead body as a vessel.


----------



## Easley (Jul 5, 2012)

Gonder said:


> tobi is a compulsive liar so i don,t believe a word he says


Tobi is selective with his lies. 

Simply lying is not a problem, but he's relayed some very important backstory that we have to trust. I'm sure _most_ things Tobi said is the truth - just from Madara's perspective. There's no way Kishi would write false history to fool the readers. Or would he? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## Helios (Jul 5, 2012)

All your points are logical.

How do you explain Danzo's statement that Tobi is almost certainly Madara Uchiha ?

Danzo was not aware of Tobi's identity.


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 5, 2012)

Helios said:


> All your points are logical.
> 
> How do you explain Danzo's statement that Tobi is almost certainly Madara Uchiha ?
> 
> Danzo was not aware of Tobi's identity.




Kagami could have gone rogue and became a missing nin way before the Uchiha massacre. 

Kabuto has uncovered his secret but he still poses as Madara in Kabuto's presence.

So it's not hard to understand why he did the same thing with Danzou.


----------



## Gonder (Jul 5, 2012)

tobi being  Kagami Uchiha, would be the most anticlimactic reveal in the history of fiction

8 years kishi has been hiding his identity from as he has tease as time and time again  and its going to end up being a guy whos been in only one chapter


----------



## takL (Jul 5, 2012)

plus 
tobi is quite familiar with old konoha not about todays konoha. he didnt know torne or Foo but their fathers/predecessors.
and he sounds as old as danzo.

a major drawback is that tobi knew too little about shiki for a student of tobirama.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 5, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> There is absolutely no manga page showing Kagami being Tobi.
> 
> I repeat: Tobi has NO REASON to lie in front of people who know he isn't Madara. It would be like he is lying for some imaginary audience.



tobi was impersonating madara. kabuto knew tobi was not madara, but the readers didn't. so tobi had to keep up the charade that he's madara until 6th coffin's reveal


----------



## Chaos Hokage (Jul 5, 2012)

I also had a theory about Uchiha Kagami being Tobi. I mean, why would Kishi introduce us to an Uchiha from Hiruzen & Danzo's generation in the same chapter which Tobimaru pass the on Hokage title? And yeah, Tobi & Kagami's hairstyle are somewhat similar.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 5, 2012)

kiroisenko said:
			
		

> THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE STRICTLY BASED FROM FACTS IN THE MANGA:
> 
> At Chapter 244 page 19, the last panel of the Kakashi Gaiden, we can clearly see the tombstone where Kakashi laid down flowers and Obito's goggles.
> statement
> ...



Zetsu clone.

Time to write a new essay, huh?



> A recap of the FACTS:
> 
> (1) Kakashi Gaiden clearly states the cause of death: Obito was crushed twice by an avalanche of falling rocks.
> 
> ...



Yes, he was dying and should have died in that scenario. But how could Zetsu fit into the equation?



> Obito died young, his body was much smaller than Tobi's, a fully-grown man who appears to be at least 60 years old judging from the wrinkles on his face when he took off his mask. So if Madara used Obito's dead body, he would be much smaller and younger, yet he appears even taller and more built than Obito.
> 
> Minato tagged him as a "MAN behind the mask" when they fought 16 years ago, a few months after Obito died, which means Minato didn't fight a small kid but a fully grown man.



If people are arguing that Zetsu retrieved the body, rebuilt it with goo, and a new soul inhabited it, then it's not too farfetched that the body was remade resembling a grown man.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 5, 2012)

kiroisenko said:


> THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE STRICTLY BASED FROM FACTS IN THE MANGA:
> 
> At Chapter 244 page 19, the last panel of the Kakashi Gaiden, we can clearly see the tombstone where Kakashi laid down flowers and Obito's goggles.
> Link removed
> ...


Minato could have retrieved his body after he saved Kakashi & Rin, but he didn't. I think one has to assume the rock slide was too massive for the body to be found (ether that or you know he's still alive and that's why they couldn't find the body, but they assumed it was due to the rock slide), which is why Obito's name is carved on a memorial tombstone which lists many names of shinobi who fell in war, whose bodies could not be recovered. 



> This is arguing merely on the basis of bonds, or valuing friends. This is notwithstanding the fact that Obito's body is the body of an Uchiha, who is naturally a carrier of the secrets of the Sharingan bloodlimit. Kakashi's sharingan is proof enough that the body of an Uchiha could be "exploited" in order to acquire the Sharingan and not only to understand its weakness. Hunter nins (or for Konoha, the ANBU) are tasked to keep/defend the secrets of the village. As a matter of principle and of duty, ANBU would never leave Obito's body under that rubble of rocks. (See further argument and references below.)


I doubt that the Hunter Nins would be worried about recovering Obito's body knowing he gave Kakashi his Sharingan & if they heard from the mission report that his other side was crushed by a bolder.



> Tobi has a right eye. Thus Tobi is not Obito.


With the amount of eye transplants we have already seen in the manga, this is a really weak argument as to why Tobi can not be Obito. With the amount of insane feats of medical/rejuvenation techniques this is a real weak argument as to why Tobi can not be Obito.



> Yondaime confirmed Obito's death according to Rin's statement, and apologized for coming in too late.


Sure Kakashi, Rin, Yondaime, & everyone else believed Obito was dead, but in a manga where hundreds of dead people were brought back to life with a myriad of different methods this is a really weak argument as to why Tobi can not be Obito. 

Sure Kakashi, Rin, Yondaime, & everyone else believed Obito was dead, but in a manga where we have several examples of characters assumed to dead who who in-fact turned out to be alive this is a real weak argument as to why Obito can not be Tobi.



> Obito died young, his body was much smaller than Tobi's, a fully-grown man who appears to be at least 60 years old judging from the wrinkles on his face when he took off his mask. So if Madara used Obito's dead body, he would be much smaller and younger, yet he appears even taller and more built than Obito.


The "wrinkles" on the face could just be scars from the boulder falling on his head or they may be due to other experimentation performed on him. After-all this could be why Kishi keeps the other side of Tobi's face darkened even when he looses that side of his mask in the Konan fight because he doesn't want readers to see that the other side of his face doesn't have these "wrinkles". 



> Minato tagged him as a "MAN behind the mask" when they fought 16 years ago, a few months after Obito died, which means Minato didn't fight a small kid but a fully grown man.


Trying to estimate a cohesive time-line for the Naruto manga and than say Obito can't be Tobi due to this time-line is a really weak argument, because Kishi fucks up the time-line all the time & in this instance we don't even know for sure what the time-line is.



> With the overwhelming evidence for Obito's death and the complete absence of any suggestion in the manga that Obito has survived or that his body has never been recovered, it is very much unlikely, if not downright impossible, that Tobi's body is Obito's.


All the counter points to the Obito/Tobi theory you provided can be applied to Uchiha Kagami as well. I mean clearly Konoha considered Kagami dead as they believed Sasuke & Itachi were the last of the Uchiha & the whole hunter nin thing can also be applied to Kagami & why wouldn't someone from Kagami's clan or Team Tobirama go look for his body if it were lost? The only difference is in Obito's case the rock slide making his body difficult to impossible to recover at least gives a compelling reason as to why Obito's body may never have been searched extensively for, but in Kagami's case we don't even have that.

So I don't find arguments like these very compelling especially since you are arguing in the OP that another Uchiha who was assumed dead is going to turn out to not be dead.

There is quite a-lot of evidence for Tobi being Obito & based on Kishimoto's writing style it's incredibly likely that he is Obito. Read this thread of mine and you'll see what I mean:


Hell pretty much all your arguments for Kagami being likely to be Tobi can be applied to Obito:



> Danzou could have learned the requirement of Uchiha plus Senju cells to perform Izanagi from Kagami when they were still together in Tobirama's team. Kagami would be of the same age as Danzou by now if he still lives.


He could have also learned this from an Obito posing as Tobi/Madara, since no where is it confirmed that Danzo had this knowledge before Obito's "death".



> Kagami could have been Madara's spy / apprentice and he fits the timeline up until Nagato was born. This explains how Tobi knew a lot about Madara.


Obito could easily also be Madara's apprentice. 



> When Kyuubi attacked Konoha 16 years ago the only ones who were not there are Danzou and Kagami along with all of the Uchihas.


I don't see how this makes Kagami any bigger of a suspect than any other character whose whereabouts during the night of the Kyuubi attack are not accounted for.



> Tobi was never seen wielding the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan unlike Madara.


Same thing could indicate he is Obito



> He could have used the name "Tobi" after Tobirama, his former squad leader.


And if Obito was Tobi, he could have came up with the name by just fucking around with the Hiragana letters that make up his name オビト (Obito), トビ (Tobi). 



> Minato said aside from himself Tobirama Senju was also a master of Space-Time jutsu. Kagami could have copied Tobirama's space-time jutsu with his Sharingan and came up with his own.


And Obito could have copied Minato's space-time jutsu with his Sharingan and came up with his own.



> I was checking out the previous chapters in which Tobi was fighting Fuu and Torune and I've just figured out that Tobi knew Torune's dad, Aburame Shikuro.


Obito could have also easily known Aburame Shikuro



> Danzo and Tobi had the same vision about uniting the shinobi world. IF Tobi is Uchiha Kagami it means he shared the same principle as Danzou.


They clearly don't share the exact same principles. Tobi wants to put the whole world in Genjutsu which he or his possible master Madara controls, while Danzo just wanted unite the 5 major villages under one banner.



> Tobi knew the exact location where Kushina is to give birth. Hiruzen, his wife Biwako, Taji of the ANBU, and ANBU under Hiruzen's command are the only people who knew about the secret. So who else could have possibly known about it? Danzou. Go back to the panel of all of the Konoha elders holding off Kyuubi outside Konoha's walls. The only ones missing were Danzou and Kagami.


If Tobi found out from Danzo, than this has no impact on who Tobi is because anyone could have found from Danzo under the guise of Tobi. After all it's not like Danzo knew Tobi was Kagami and that's why he trusted him, since the entire time he believed Tobi was the real Uchiha Madara. 

Tobi being Obito would make more sense here, because being Minato's student he would have been in a position to potentially find out Kushina was the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki and also find out that her seal holding Kurama insider her was weakest during child birth. 



> This one is solid proof that Danzo and Tobi were partners in crime: It came from Tobi's mouth. He conspired with Danzou during the Uchiha massacre. This explains the stockpile of Sharingans in Tobi's possession. He took the Uchihas' eyes during the Uchiha massacre. Danzou got Shisui's eye prior to that. Tobi and Danzo has been using each other to achieve their personal goals.


I agree that it's likely if not outright confirmed that Tobi & Danzo conspired together in some capacity, but Obito posing as Tobi could have conspired with Danzo just as easily as Kagami, since Danzo never knew Tobi's real identity and always thought Tobi was Uchiha Madara.

So yeah pretty much all of this can apply to Obito.

But anyway ontopic, the reason I don't find Uchiha Kagami being Tobi likely is that it would be a shitty reveal of Tobi's identity on Kishi's part which would shock no one, it would just be like, okay he is that random Uchiha that was mentioned in one flashback, so what? At that point it would be almost more interesting if he was a totally new character. I'm not saying it's impossible though.


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 5, 2012)

Agree to disagree. I respect your opinion. I guess we just have to wait and see.


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 5, 2012)

I know you’ve already stated your mistrust of Kishi’s timeline, but how about a real simple one.

1. Obito is Kakashi’s age. Kakashi is Zabuza’s age. Therefore, Obito is the same age as Zabuza.
2. Zabuza was a child during the Blood Mist era. Therefore, Obito was a child during the Blood Mist era.
3. A masked man influencing the fourth Mizukage is responsible for the Blood Mist era. Therefore, Obito is not this masked man.
4. Kisame identified this masked man as the same man who was known as Tobi. Therefore, Obito is not Tobi.

Make sense?


----------



## spiritmight (Jul 5, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Yes, Tobi did fight Hashirama
> 
> He was with Kabuto and Zetsu, both know perfectly well he isn't Madara. So why lie?




That was simply for the reader's convenience.

If he said "When Uchiha Madara fought Hashirama" don't you think that would have ruined the "Sixth Coffin" secret for the readers?


----------



## Escargon (Jul 5, 2012)

Still someone havent taken up something important:

Kishi showed both Tobis face and Madaras face in his flashback to trick us to beliving that Tobi is actually an aged Madara. 

Same thing happened during Konan fight. Kishimoto showed both Tobis broken mask and Madara close to it.

And still people come here saying that Tobi looks nowhere close to Madara. Then we wouldnt belivie that Tobi was Madara to begin with and Kishi didnt have to draw him and Madara at the same panel. Did people even read Naruto back in those days?

I think that Tobi and Madara are closer than we think.


----------



## DUNGEON (Jul 5, 2012)

Well dont get me wrong but tobi can be a part of madara split up into two. Its like soul splitting. One part is brought back by edo tensei and other has been wandering all along.


----------



## insane111 (Jul 5, 2012)

eepdoodle said:


> I know you?ve already stated your mistrust of Kishi?s timeline, but how about a real simple one.
> 
> 1. Obito is Kakashi?s age. Kakashi is Zabuza?s age. Therefore, Obito is the same age as Zabuza.
> 2. Zabuza was a child during the Blood Mist era. Therefore, Obito was a child during the Blood Mist era.
> ...



Obito is a time traveler


----------



## AVC (Jul 5, 2012)

> Obito is a time traveler



Yup that's my theory as well it's on page 64 of this thread, but I gonna post it again anyway :



> Hey I just got a crazy theory on who Tobi might be. What if Tobi is... a time-traveler Obito!
> 
> So it begins with the day that Obito supposed died with the rockfalls, but instead of dying he activated his Magenkyo Sharingan for the first time and teleported out of there before the rocks crushed down on him. Like it was his first time doing it, he didn't know what he was doing, but because of using all or almost all his chakra on that move, instead of just teleporting away, he somehow teleported into the past, in the time of Konoha founding. By the time he arrived, he was almost dying, not just because half of his body was crushed, but also because he was almost out of chakra for that move. It was also because of that time-traveling space-time migration that he have that kind of spiral pattern carved on his face that matches the first mask we saw him using in the manga.
> 
> ...


----------



## Talis (Jul 5, 2012)

insane111 said:


> Obito is a time traveler


Not, the long haired maksed man was the real Madara obviously.


----------



## witchking (Jul 5, 2012)

it may be possible that obito activated his magenkyo sharingan. they said that to activate it u have to kill a loved one or family, but kakashi did it without killing anyone, and kakashi has obitos eye, so kakashi has the same magenkyo that obito may have. i doubt he is time traveling but kakashis magenkyo sends objects to a different dimension. so its plausible he sent himself in another dimension, but obito was best friends with kakashi, i dont think hed want to destroy the leaf, and the boulder had already crushed his right side presumably also crushing his eye.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 6, 2012)

kiroisenko said:


> He never said that he fought Hashirama years after Madara was defeated at the Valley of the End.
> 
> No manga evidence supports that claim.



"This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle." 
there is CLEAR evidence that Tobi fought Hashirama



Gonder said:


> tobi being  Kagami Uchiha, would be the most anticlimactic reveal in the history of fiction
> 
> 8 years kishi has been hiding his identity from as he has tease as time and time again  and its going to end up being a guy whos been in only one chapter



just because its anti-climactic doesnt mean it cant be Kagami... a lot of people think that ANY outcome would be anti-climactic at this point

and Kagami being an anti-climactic option is just your opinion... people like me would actually really like it to be Kagami because of the amount of backstory and historical significance it could bring into the story

Kagami has ties to Hiruzen, Danzo, Torifu, the Elders Homura and Koharu, Tobirama, Hashirama, Madara... and maybe even Obito



Chaos Hokage said:


> I also had a theory about Uchiha Kagami being Tobi. I mean, why would Kishi introduce us to an Uchiha from Hiruzen & Danzo's generation in the same chapter which Tobimaru pass the on Hokage title? And yeah, Tobi & Kagami's hairstyle are somewhat similar.



i saw it the same way 

there is no such thing as coincidence... only inevitability


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> "This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle."
> there is CLEAR evidence that Tobi fought Hashirama



Tobi was working with Madara before Madara died. After Madara's death Tobi posed as the real Madara hiding his true identity. 

Tobi saying he was the one who stole the living tissue from Hashirama is just a charade. He does not want to admit that he is a fake in spite of Kabuto reviving the real Madara. 

I was asking for a manga panel showing Tobi fighting Madara. Unless you can provide that evidence Tobi fighting Hashirama never happened.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 6, 2012)

kiroisenko said:


> Tobi was working with Madara before Madara died. After Madara's death Tobi posed as the real Madara hiding his true identity.
> 
> Tobi saying he was the one who stole the living tissue from Hashirama is just a charade. He does not want to admit that he is a fake in spite of Kabuto reviving the real Madara.
> 
> I was asking for a manga panel showing Tobi fighting Madara. Unless you can provide that evidence Tobi fighting Hashirama never happened.



Kabuto already showed Tobi the 6th coffin and knew Tobi wasnt really Madara... so no, it wasnt a charade, Tobi had no reason to keep up the charade

the evidence that Tobi fought Hashirama is in the statement i provided, its what people call *canon* in forums such as these... i dont need a panel showing Tobi and Hashirama actually fighting, thats just flawed reasoning


----------



## Escargon (Jul 6, 2012)

Tobi is Hidan :datitachi


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i dont need a panel showing Tobi and Hashirama actually fighting, thats just flawed reasoning



Yes you do. Because Tobi is a liar. 

Okay. Let's say Tobi fought Hashirama. So what about the real Madara who also fought Hashirama? Are you saying Hashirama fought both of them at the same time? If not where is your evidence showing that Tobi fought Hashirama at some point?


----------



## jacamo (Jul 6, 2012)

no i dont... its cannon that Tobi and Hashirama fought each other

the evidence is there, whether you choose to accept it or not


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 6, 2012)

You didn't answer the questions.


----------



## Kid (Jul 6, 2012)

Do people still have doubts about Teuchi being Tobi?!


----------



## jacamo (Jul 6, 2012)

why should i bother?

they fought... its cannon


----------



## son_michael (Jul 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> why should i bother?
> 
> they fought... its cannon



says who? The only thing I saw was tobi fight Minato. MADARA fought Hashirama.


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> why should i bother?
> 
> they fought... its cannon




Prove it. Show me the manga page showing them fighting.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 6, 2012)

like i said, i dont need to

"This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him *during our battle*." 
"during our battle" means they fought at some point

if you dont want to accept it, then thats up to you


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 6, 2012)

I am asking for the manga page showing Tobi versus Hashirama.

What you don't realize is that Tobi was referring to the battle between Madara and Hashirama at the Valley of the End:

Perhaps what Karin did to him?

_"Bent on revenge, *I* challenged Konohagakure."_

He said it was HIM who fought Hashirama at the Valley of the End 60 years ago.

He did not say he fought Hashirama on a different occassion.

Based on the manga page it is clear that it was the real Madara who fought Hashirama and not Tobi.


----------



## Easley (Jul 6, 2012)

kiroisenko said:


> He did not say he fought Hashirama on a different occassion.
> 
> Based on the manga page it is clear that it was the real Madara who fought Hashirama and not Tobi.


So why did Tobi claim to have stolen tissue from his battle with Hashirama? Pretending to be Madara is pretty stupid when Kabuto knows it's an act.


----------



## Talis (Jul 6, 2012)

jacamo said:


> like i said, i dont need to
> 
> "This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him *during our battle*."
> "during our battle" means they fought at some point
> ...


So a 15~ years old Kagami killed Hashirama?
Interesting.


----------



## NW (Jul 7, 2012)

I've just found something interesting that could support the Tobito theory. Now, by now it should be pretty obvious that Tobi uses MS to teleport, and that's why the MS pattern is always hidden, because we'll probably recognize it. Now, people say that we've never seen Tobi's eye when he was teleporting. But, there is actually one panel where we can see his eye and it looks to be an MS of some sort. It can't be made out exactly whose it is, but it does seem to resemble Kakashi's MS, but it's not exact resemblance as his eye is seen from a distance. Here, this is what I mean: 

Now, let's compare that to Kakashi's: 

Now, I know we can't tell for sure what Tobi's MS design looks like in detail but at least we know he has MS and that it does resemble Kakashi's from what little detail we can see.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 7, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting... I never noticed that. Which chapter was it?


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 7, 2012)

jacamo said:


> why should i bother?
> 
> they fought... its cannon


"I can't think of any other logical explanation" = cannon/plothole.



Easley said:


> So why did Tobi claim to have stolen tissue from his battle with Hashirama? Pretending to be Madara is pretty stupid when Kabuto knows it's an act.



Maybe it's safer to just continue to pretend, in case of a fourth party. It's not like there aren't people that can't see through objects from miles away...





loool3 said:


> So a 15~ years old Kagami killed Hashirama?
> Interesting.



Even more when we fast forward to later in his life, and he loses to Minato when he's older.


----------



## Noctis Dragneel (Jul 7, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I've just found something interesting that could support the Tobito theory. Now, by now it should be pretty obvious that Tobi uses MS to teleport, and that's why the MS pattern is always hidden, because we'll probably recognize it. Now, people say that we've never seen Tobi's eye when he was teleporting. But, there is actually one panel where we can see his eye and it looks to be an MS of some sort. It can't be made out exactly whose it is, but it does seem to resemble Kakashi's MS, but it's not exact resemblance as his eye is seen from a distance. Here, this is what I mean:
> Now, let's compare that to Kakashi's:
> 
> Now, I know we can't tell for sure what Tobi's MS design looks like in detail but at least we know he has MS and that it does resemble Kakashi's from what little detail we can see.



That's 10 times more likely to be Izuna's mangekyo sharingan.


----------



## NW (Jul 7, 2012)

Noctis Dragneel said:


> That's 10 times more likely to be Izuna's mangekyo sharingan.


lol wut? No it's 10 times less likely, no, it's impossible to be Izuna's mangekyo. Madara took Izuna's eyes. Even if Izuna got new eyes, they still wouldn't have his MS pattern as they're not his original eyes.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 7, 2012)

One problem with the Tobito theory is that it largely depends on Obito's right eye surviving the right side of his body being crushed. One explanation I see most commonly used to explain how the right eye could have regenerated is by the powers of Hasharima, which we do know that Tobi can use to an extent. While superficially plausible, there is a serious hole in that explanation. 

That hole is Shisui's eye. Tobi very much wanted that eye from Danzo and would likely have gone to great lengths to make sure he could use it for his own. However, Tobi cursed Danzo for crushing Shisui's eye, which indicates that Tobi could not repair the eye. And given how useful Kotoamatsukami would be for him, the reasonable assumption is that Tobi couldn't do anything about it. And I do not believe that Danzo could more effectively crush his eye at the last second than a giant falling rock could crush Obito's eye.


----------



## Talis (Jul 7, 2012)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> One problem with the Tobito theory is that it largely depends on Obito's right eye surviving the right side of his body being crushed. One explanation I see most commonly used to explain how the right eye could have regenerated is by the powers of Hasharima, which we do know that Tobi can use to an extent. While superficially plausible, there is a serious hole in that explanation.
> 
> That hole is Shisui's eye. Tobi very much wanted that eye from Danzo and would likely have gone to great lengths to make sure he could use it for his own. However, Tobi cursed Danzo for crushing Shisui's eye, which indicates that Tobi could not repair the eye. And given how useful Kotoamatsukami would be for him, the reasonable assumption is that Tobi couldn't do anything about it. And I do not believe that Danzo could more effectively crush his eye at the last second than a giant falling rock could crush Obito's eye.


Or the Sharingan simply wasnt crush as you can see the rock didnt pierce through Obito's head;


----------



## Yoroi Mitarashi (Jul 8, 2012)

Tobi is some kind of illegitimate bastard child of a Uchiha and a Hashirama. Seems logical since he has Sharingan and Hashirama powers. And he's used some kind of jutsu sort of like Tsunade's to live forever. But that's just a guess.


----------



## DUNGEON (Jul 8, 2012)

Yoroi Mitarashi said:


> Tobi is some kind of illegitimate bastard child of a Uchiha and a Hashirama. Seems logical since he has Sharingan and Hashirama powers. And he's used some kind of jutsu sort of like Tsunade's to live forever. But that's just a guess.



He shows in the real world for a very less time.
Rest of the time he rests in his timeless space.This is how he hasnt aged much yet.


----------



## Yoroi Mitarashi (Jul 8, 2012)

DUNGEON said:


> He shows in the real world for a very less time.
> Rest of the time he rests in his timeless space.This is how he hasnt aged much yet.



yeah that


----------



## Moon Fang (Jul 8, 2012)

Tobi does have a reason to lie. Us.


----------



## alienworkshopguy (Jul 8, 2012)

What if Tobi is Hashirama and Mitos son who was stolen as a new born baby during the VOTE fight, this is the "DNA" Madara took from Hashirama. combining the dna of "tobi" with his own, he created zetsu. then later transplanted his eye's to tobi thus unlocking renningan, then took his eyes back and later died. then zetsu transplanted them to Nagato. Thus the eyes would technically be tobi's and explain his stong life force (being mito son) and quantity of chakra.


----------



## NO (Jul 8, 2012)

*Everything you want to know about Uchiha Kagami.*

Enjoy the read.


----------



## Gonder (Jul 8, 2012)

tobi being Kagami Uchiha, would be the most anticlimactic reveal in the history of fiction

8 years kishi has been hiding his identity from as he has tease as time and time again and its going to end up being a guy whos been in only one chapter


----------



## Freechoice (Jul 8, 2012)

*This theory has been done before. It's incredibly unlikely but the hair is similar I guess.

*


----------



## Mateush (Jul 8, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> lol wut? No it's 10 times less likely, no, it's impossible to be Izuna's mangekyo. Madara took Izuna's eyes. Even if Izuna got new eyes, they still wouldn't have his MS pattern as they're not his original eyes.



Please respond my post:


> Interesting... I never noticed that. Which chapter was it?



I want to check if there's better quality for this panel with Tobi's unconfirmed MS.


----------



## Coldhands (Jul 8, 2012)

Everything you want to know about Uchiha Kagami:
He's a fodder that we'r never going to see again.


----------



## lain2501 (Jul 8, 2012)

I motherfucking think it could be fucking true.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Jul 8, 2012)

The only thing I've liked here was: "We don't give a single fuck about Akimichi right now."

But we know, how he looked like in his older age:

Lightning Oppression Horizontal

Behind Hiruzen.


----------



## Noctis Dragneel (Jul 8, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> lol wut? No it's 10 times less likely, no, it's impossible to be Izuna's mangekyo. Madara took Izuna's eyes. Even if Izuna got new eyes, they still wouldn't have his MS pattern as they're not his original eyes.



The point is it looks a lot more like Izuna's mangekyo then Kakashi's. Kishimito may do whatever he wants to explain this, he may say that Tobi lied about Madara stealing his eyes (if he is Izuna) and took somebody elses. But this probably wont happen, either way this doesn't support Obito's theory at all, since the eyes look exactly like Izuna's and somewhat simillar to Obito's. Kishi didn't probably mean anything by that panel.


----------



## GoDMasteR (Jul 8, 2012)

tobi has never showed a mangekyo sharingan.


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jul 8, 2012)

Uchiha Kagami looks exactly like Obito. He might be his father.


----------



## Udontard4ever (Jul 8, 2012)

let's admit it
it's always better than izuna

and it would be fun to have a villain for every generation of konoha
(danzo's a bastard but i wouldn't really count him as a villain)


----------



## jacamo (Jul 8, 2012)

GoDMasteR said:


> tobi has never showed a mangekyo sharingan.



Kishi has done that on purpose to avoid spoiling the Tobi reveal

- if the MS design was one we've seen before, the reveal is spoiled

- if the MS design was something new, the reveal is spoiled

Tobi's Jikukan teleportation is still an MS jutsu


----------



## Zelavour (Jul 8, 2012)

I fucking doubts that its fucking Kagami.
He's motherfucking fodder.


----------



## Summers (Jul 8, 2012)

Has this man even spoke a single word, or done anything on Panel.


----------



## Ghost (Jul 8, 2012)

please kishi, no.


----------



## Appleofeden (Jul 8, 2012)

1. It was never said Tobirama invented time/space ninjutsu.  
2. Tob's time/space comes from his sharingan, 
3. Tobi is wearing a MOTHER FUCKING MASK no way of knowing he is Uchiha.
4.  Making Tobi some fodder that appeared in one ch. and did absolutely nothing would be MOTHER FUCKING BORING. 
5. This theory is as old as the ch. Kagami appeared in. NF has been literally been  subjected to this lame ass theory from day 1 of Kagami's appearance.

MIND=BORED


----------



## Udontard4ever (Jul 8, 2012)

summers said:


> Has this man even spoke a single word, or done anything on Panel.



Actually I think he had more lines than izuna

just saying


----------



## Klue (Jul 8, 2012)

I hope not, seriously, I do.

One thing though: Tobi's space/time ninjutsu likely centers around his Sharingan, and since that same eye is capable of controlling the Kyuubi, we can only assume that he possess the Mangekyou.

It could be a Mangekyou power, meaning he wouldn't need to learn Space/Time Ninjutsu from Tobirama.


----------



## Udontard4ever (Jul 8, 2012)

was it actually stated anywhere you need the MS to control the kyuubi?


----------



## Rolling~Star (Jul 8, 2012)

that guy has no plot relevance at all, why would it be him? contrary to popular belief, using "friend" and "fucking" a hundred times does not make your argument more valid

at least izuna/madara can represent sasuke/itachi dynamics gone wrong.


----------



## Hermansen (Jul 8, 2012)

Uchiha Kagami's line in this manga: "That won't work... ...someone will have to lure them away..."
Lots of motherfucking dots, just like Itachi.

That still from the anime gives him the same eyebrows as tobi, but they are not really as visible in the manga.
2

Would be really random, but as someone has mentioned earlier, Izuna's name isn't even mentioned anywhere other than the databook, so I guess Kagami is just as likely.


----------



## ordycitizen (Jul 8, 2012)

Yes, this has been done before.I used to think this is a theory that hold a good chance. I some what agree that Tobi's old. But Tobi's and Kagami's sideburn patterns look so different. Check the chapter 486. Just compare Kagami's with Tobi's sideburns.

2


----------



## Udontard4ever (Jul 8, 2012)

Rolling~Star said:


> at least izuna/madara can represent sasuke/itachi dynamics gone wrong.



honestly i think that the sasuke/itachi dynamics went far wronger than madara/izuna's


----------



## jacamo (Jul 8, 2012)

ive held the Kagami theory for a long time now

nice to see its catching on 



Klue said:


> One thing though: Tobi's space/time ninjutsu likely centers around his Sharingan, and since that same eye is capable of controlling the Kyuubi, we can only assume that he possess the Mangekyou.



its only Tobi's teleportation which centers around his eye

that is probably an MS jutsu

but his phasing could be completely unrelated to the Sharingan


----------



## Amatérasu’s Son (Jul 8, 2012)

POST #7696

This theory is still plausible as it was when it was first formulated.

But it has no greater bearing than Izuna or the Elder Son of Rikudo Sennin.



Udontard4ever said:


> was it actually stated anywhere you need the MS to control the kyuubi?


Sasuke mentioned it when he was speaking with Itachi before their battle.

"The Mangekyo will eventually lose it's light."

"So that's the price you pay for being able to control the Kyubi no Yoko?"

"Well, well, well Sasuke, you actually listened to me and read the tablet in Naka Shrine."


Rolling~Star said:


> that guy has no plot relevance at all, why would it be him? contrary to popular belief, using "friend" and "fucking" a hundred times does not make your argument more valid
> 
> at least izuna/madara can represent sasuke/itachi dynamics gone wrong.



No, but it does make me read the entire post in Samuel L. Jackson's voice


----------



## NW (Jul 8, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Please respond my post:
> 
> 
> I want to check if there's better quality for this panel with Tobi's unconfirmed MS.


That image was cut off from the volume raw. It's the best quality there is.



Noctis Dragneel said:


> The point is it looks a lot more like Izuna's mangekyo then Kakashi's. Kishimito may do whatever he wants to explain this, he may say that Tobi lied about Madara stealing his eyes (if he is Izuna) and took somebody elses. But this probably wont happen, either way this doesn't support Obito's theory at all, since the eyes look exactly like Izuna's and somewhat simillar to Obito's. Kishi didn't probably mean anything by that panel.


Maybe he didn't intend for us to know exactly what it was yet. But that thing sure was a mangekyo. And if it was shown in the flashback, that means Madara stole Izuna's eyes. Lying is acceptable, faking a flashback is not as we _saw_ him put his hand on Izuna's eyes. Plus, Madara has EMS, so he did take them. Either way, Tobi can't be Izuna.


----------



## Deadweight (Jul 8, 2012)

Even though I have my own thoughts concerning Tobi's identity, something just occured to me that could be considered evidence for all the Tobi is random amalgam of hashi/madara/obito/w.e theories.

Tobi's latest design, with the rinngan mask and one sharingan and one rinnegan makes Tobi qualify in appearance as having what's known in real life as chimerism.

Chimerism is when twins do not seperate completely at birth, but instead develop into one person with parts that are genetically not his, but belong to his twin. It can also occur as "either inherited, or it is acquired through the infusion of allogeneic hematopoietic cells during transplantation or transfusion".

The name chimera is taken from the greek mythological beast Chimera, who is a made by mixing together a number of different animals, namely  lion, snake, and goat.

Anyway I thought this could add an interesting dimension to Kishimoto's brothers theme, particularly uchiha brothers theme. If Tobi was a bad uchiha, who absorbed his brother (or what was left of him) as his first step towards becoming a chimera, even before he added hashiramas chakra into the mix. This could work if it was Shisui, absorbing whats left of obito, the elder son absorbing the younger son, izuna aborbing Madara on his deathbed etc

I really doubt Kishi would not realize the symbolism behind having two different eyes, given how symbolically inclined kishimoto is generally. This could also be another reason why Tobi considers himself "no one". He has replaced his genetic material so much, he is no longer physically, genetially, or mentally who he was when he was born, he is a mulititude. Would also go pretty far in explaining his identity confusion. (refering to himself as Madara when he is alone).

Anyway, food for thought


----------



## HakuGaara (Jul 8, 2012)

It would be neat if Tobi is this guy!


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 9, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> That image was cut off from the volume raw. It's the best quality there is.


Still not answering from what chapter it is?


----------



## NO (Jul 9, 2012)

Appleofeden said:


> 1. It was never said Tobirama invented time/space ninjutsu.
> 2. Tob's time/space comes from his sharingan,
> 3. Tobi is wearing a MOTHER FUCKING MASK no way of knowing he is Uchiha.
> 4.  Making Tobi some fodder that appeared in one ch. and did absolutely nothing would be MOTHER FUCKING BORING.
> ...


1. Minato, Tobirama, and Tobi are the only three people who can use Space-Time Ninjutsu. It is assumed Tobirama discovered or invented it since he's the oldest of the three.
2. Unconfirmed.
3. Tobi admitted he was an Uchiha in chapter 590.
4. Irrelevant.
5. Irrelevant.


----------



## Revolution (Jul 9, 2012)

Is it just me, or does the poster look like it comes from 4chan?  And why does no one mentions the weapon that Tobi uses is probably Senju?  It looks like the Senju crest for symbol's sake.


----------



## Yuna (Jul 9, 2012)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> The only thing I've liked here was: "We don't give a single fuck about Akimichi right now."
> 
> But we know, how he looked like in his older age:
> 
> ...


Looks nothing like Kagami except maybe the mouth.


----------



## DUNGEON (Jul 9, 2012)

No one is as mofo badass as Izuna.He is fkin madara's level.
Madara would think twice before going against him.


----------



## gjoerulv (Jul 9, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> ................. I'm assuming the first one is a joke.
> 
> It can't be Madara in Obito's body. First of all, Madara was Edo Tensei'd so no matter what, it's not him. I am wondering how it wouldn't make sense if it was actually Obito's soul as well. There are alot of loose ends that still need to be tied up regarding the whole Gaiden ordeal, and Tobi being Obito could potentially explain them. Besides, Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto, so an evil obito would therefore be Naruto's exact opposite and make a great final villain for the series. Besides, I can't believe people even use this argument to support this theory. Just look at Nagato. Well, whatever. It can't be Madara. That makes no logical sense at all. Madara wouldn't be focused on so much during his battle with the Kages, if Tobi was still him. People only recognized him as Madara because he had similar feats.



The 1st was obviously a joke.
_Why so serious._

Of course things have to make sense. I wouldn't suggest this otherwise. All I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out Madara somehow split his soul, thus capable of being reanimated with edo tensei. How? Well Oro found a method of soul transfer, so it's not far fetched. I find this just as far fetched as Tobi actually is Obito, with new twisted ideas. It still needs to be heavily explained in both cases.
That Nagato recognised Tobi as Madara should indeed matter in this case. I wouldn't just throw it away. Madara somehow expected Nagato to revive him, or at least do something to him with rinnegan.

But it can't be denied that it's heavily hinted by now that he is not Madara. Tobi can be many persons at this point, and I find it very interesting. I would be careful to get too high expectations about Obito though. However, the setting -as it is now- suits the idea. Still, I would rather go for some person in Obito's body over Obito's body and mind.

I highly doubt Kakashi will get an entire year. Kishi merely meant he would be in the spotlight for a while. Don't take it too literal.


----------



## NW (Jul 9, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> The 1st was obviously a joke.
> _Why so serious._
> 
> Of course things have to make sense. I wouldn't suggest this otherwise. All I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out Madara somehow split his soul, thus capable of being reanimated with edo tensei. How? Well Oro found a method of soul transfer, so it's not far fetched. I find this just as far fetched as Tobi actually is Obito, with new twisted ideas. It still needs to be heavily explained in both cases.
> ...


Heavily hinted? it's freaking confirmed he's not Madara! And besides, Tobi still being Madara somehow(which he isn't) would be so anti-climactic. And Tobi acts nothing like Madara.

Obito is the only logical answer considering Japanese mythology, themes, storytelling, abilities, appearance, Tobi's dark outlook on life, and Kishi's writing style. It all just screams Obito.


----------



## Shaz (Jul 9, 2012)

What if Tobi is a woman?


----------



## NW (Jul 9, 2012)

Alfred Polizzi said:


> Still not answering from what chapter it is?


I think it's somewhere around the Kage Summit arc. Eh, I'll go ask in the "What chapter" thread.


MissinqNin said:


> What if Tobi is a woman?


I'd move to Japan and shoot Kishi dead.

But seriously though, if you're not going to contribute anything, don't come here at all.


----------



## Shaz (Jul 9, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I'd move to Japan and shoot Kishi dead.
> 
> But seriously though, if you're not going to contribute anything, don't come here at all.



No you would fondle Tobi's assets. 

I have contributed enough to this thread, yet it is too repetitive to even post in.


----------



## NW (Jul 9, 2012)

jayjay32 said:


> Enjoy the read.


It's not Kagami. Just, no.

Kagami's team teamed up with Tobirama's team for ONE mission in the entire FGSWW(First Great Shinobi World War). Tobirama wouldn't have had the time to teach him anything. Plus, Kagami was in 1 chapter. Who's gonna recognize him" Barely any of the fans will, neither will anyone currently fighting him in the manga. Kagami was introduced almost 300 chapters after Tobi's introduction. It just doesn't add up....



JuubiSage said:


> Everything you want to know about Uchiha Kagami:
> He's a fodder that we'r never going to see again.


Here we have it, folks.


----------



## NW (Jul 9, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I have contributed enough to this thread, yet it is too repetitive to even post in.


Then don't post here at all.


----------



## Shaz (Jul 9, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Then don't post here at all.




I'll post where I please Obitit. 

It is useless for even yourself to post theories which have been stated a hundred times over, as that doesn't show your intellect at all at picking up so-called hints. There is no need to theorize when something has already been stated. It's simply a waste of time, as nothing constructive is being said - Especially since the opposition will only try fuck your theory inside and out as they have no disproving evidence. Perhaps using the search function would help.

People should either wait, or stop being butt hurt and vexed over Tobi's identity.


----------



## NW (Jul 9, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> I'll post where I please Obitit.
> 
> It is useless for even yourself to post theories which have been stated a hundred times over, as that doesn't show your intellect at all at picking up so-called hints. There is no need to theorize when something has already been stated. It's simply a waste of time, as nothing constructive is being said - Especially since the opposition will only try fuck your theory inside and out as they have no disproving evidence. Perhaps using the search function would help.
> 
> People should either wait, or stop being butt hurt and vexed over Tobi's identity.


Good point, sort of. But even if it's already been stated this many times, it's still fun to debate with people who don't agree with it.

You are the scourge of the TIT(Tobi's Identity thread). Now get off.


----------



## Shaz (Jul 9, 2012)

I see this thread as a battle of headless Roosters. Now entertain me. 


MN out.


----------



## DarkFire (Jul 9, 2012)

Tobi's arm was coming off like a piece of jelly after Minato hit him with the rasengan, and that slimy goo reminds me of Orochimaru so the whole body switching theory has some plausibility


----------



## MYJC (Jul 9, 2012)

I honestly don't know. 

Tobi being Kagami (a character who appeared on one chapter and had like one line of dialogue) or Izuna (who isn't even named in the manga) would be the most anticlimactic reveal in the history of manga.

I personally lean towards him being a clone that Madara created near the end of his life (and somehow transferred his memories to) to carry out his plan, but I guess that would be a bit anticlimactic too. 

Obito? Would be interesting but Kishi would have hella explaining to do since Obito was nothing like Tobi and there are timeline issues.

Him being the Juubi would just be weird and would seem to make the secrecy pointless since he'd be nobody that anybody knows.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 9, 2012)

Izuna with no memories in Obito's body.

Obito never died, he was buried and crushed, and on the verge of death, but Madara and Zetsu found him.

Madara used the Rinne'tensei to revive Izuna, however there were issues (Uchiha powered Rinn'egan/Lack of Skill/Whatever) Izuna was revived, but he was an empty shell. No memories, no body.

Madara use the Rinne'gan to shove Izuna into Obito and then used the Demon Path to heal Obito's body. Unfortunately it didn't work, and Izuna and Obito combined, while his body was still broken.

Madara started dying, but before he did he imparted all his memories into Izuna (Now in Obito's body).

So, Tobi is:

Izuna and Obito (Combined due to Rinne'gan) with Madara's memories/knowledge kept together by Zetsu goop.


----------



## NW (Jul 9, 2012)

DarkFire said:


> Tobi's arm was coming off like a piece of jelly after Minato hit him with the rasengan, and that slimy goo reminds me of Orochimaru so the whole body switching theory has some plausibility


Just because the Zetsu goo is the same color as Oro's skin? Seriously, that theory has no plausibility.



MYJC said:


> I honestly don't know.
> 
> Tobi being Kagami (a character who appeared on one chapter and had like one line of dialogue) or Izuna (who isn't even named in the manga) would be the most anticlimactic reveal in the history of manga.
> 
> ...


I know, it's so confusing. Although, the supposed timeline issues for Obito could probably be easily resolved. And Tobi's outlook on the world implies that he was once someone good, but turned evil due to horrible events. Tobi does seem to be what an evil Obito would be like. 



Ichiurto said:


> Izuna with no memories in Obito's body.
> 
> Obito never died, he was buried and crushed, and on the verge of death, but Madara and Zetsu found him.
> 
> ...


Most anti-climactic reveal ever....


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 9, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Most anti-climactic reveal ever....



It makes sense, though.

We still have Kakashi story left re: Rin.

There is a reason Kakashi is there during this battle with Tobi.

Brothers are a huge theme within this Manga. We know Izuna was on Madara's level, all we know of him is Madara took his eyes. There has to be more to the story than that.

There has to be a reason Madara died after gaining the Rinn'egan, and I doubt he'd trust two random Shinobi with such an important plan.

This provides backstory for Kakashi (Revealed it's Obito's body), Izuna/Madara (Their relationship, what Tobi is) and why Tobi considers himself no-one.

In this theory, Izuna's memories would have started to resurface (Reason he went to check out the Shrine) it explains the warping (Obito's MS Jutsu) and it explains the intangibility (Due to the revival process he went under) as well as the memories/knowlegde he has of Madara.

It also opens an option for his defeat. Obito resurfaces, giving Naruto/Whoever, enough time to land a killing blow before he can go intangible. Or Kishimoto can stick to the same tried and boring method of Deva Path RE: The Jutsu Time Limit.

One of the biggest problems with any Tobi = Obito theory though, is the size of Tobi when he attacked Konoha. A workaround for this is simple - Obito's body was so crushed, his legs were useless, as well as one (Or both) of his arms. He's made up of metal  (for structure) covered in Zetsu goo (For definition). This explains why he has what looks like screw bolts in his body.

This provides an avenue of personal connection to Sasuke (Younger Brother vs Younger Brother), Kakashi (Enraged at what's been made of his friend). But not to Naruto.

However, Naruto is pretty disconnected to the overall plot and story anyway. He's basically a background character written as a main-character, which is kind of why this manga is so thin story-wise.


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 9, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> One of the biggest problems with any Tobi = Obito theory though, is the size of Tobi when he attacked Konoha. A workaround for this is simple - Obito's body was so crushed, his legs were useless, as well as one (Or both) of his arms. He's made up of metal  (for structure) covered in Zetsu goo (For definition). This explains why he has what looks like screw bolts in his body.



Link removed
Link removed

So a kunai can cut through metal now? Cool story bro.


----------



## NW (Jul 9, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> It makes sense, though.
> 
> We still have Kakashi story left re: Rin.
> 
> ...


I get where you're coming from, but i just personally think it would make alot more sense for it to be Obito completely, body and soul. Obito was a perfect parallel to Naruto back in the day, so an evil Obito would therefore be the exact opposite of Naruto and the perfect final villain for the series. Not to mention the other things that point to him. it really can't be Izuna in any way. Madara said Izuna was dead, I'd think he'd know if Tobi was his own brother. Izuna wasn't even named in the manga, we had to find his name in the databook, plus Izuna has had no lines at all.

About Obito, there's no reason he couldn't have been that tall when he attacked the village. He would have been around 16 at the time. And Kakashi was very tall too when you see him then, and Obito was taller than Kakashi in Gaiden. People grow at different rates.

And, Naruto not connected to the plot? Lol, yeah right. He's the next friggin Rikudou.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 9, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I get where you're coming from, but i just personally think it would make alot more sense for it to be Obito completely, body and soul. Obito was a perfect parallel to Naruto back in the day, so an evil Obito would therefore be the exact opposite of Naruto and the perfect final villain for the series. Not to mention the other things that point to him. it really can't be Izuna in any way. Madara said Izuna was dead, I'd think he'd know if Tobi was his own brother. Izuna wasn't even named in the manga, we had to find his name in the databook, plus Izuna has had no lines at all.
> 
> About Obito, there's no reason he couldn't have been that tall when he attacked the village. He would have been around 16 at the time. And Kakashi was very tall too when you see him then, and Obito was taller than Kakashi in Gaiden. People grow at different rates.
> 
> And, Naruto not connected to the plot? Lol, yeah right. He's the next friggin Rikudou.



It's just too absurd for Obito to have become Tobi. Did Rin die and he decided to destroy the world or something? That's worse than Sasuke's emo fit! Besides, we already had Naruto's evil counterpart: Uzumaki Nagato. Even their names were identical except for one syllable.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 9, 2012)

What's the proof against the Shisui = Tobi theory?


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 9, 2012)

kiroisenko said:


> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> So a kunai can cut through metal now? Cool story bro.





An even cooler story


----------



## Marsala (Jul 9, 2012)

Scizor said:


> What's the proof against the Shisui = Tobi theory?



Probably too young to have attacked Konoha.

Almost certainly too young to have known Madara before he died (when Nagato was still "little").

Gave up BOTH of his eyes right before the massacre. What, did he have his brother Obito's eye on ice or something? 

Hair too short.

Ideals completely counter to Tobi's ideals.

Not really relevant to Naruto and Sasuke. Itachi would be shocked, I guess, but he's not the main character, right?

And the biggest one...

Body was found drowned in the river by the Uchiha and disposed of.

Oh, I forgot that Tobi talks about getting "Shisui's eye".


*Spoiler*: __ 



There are rumors that Shisui is the villain in the illusion world of the new movie or something.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 9, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Probably too young to have attacked Konoha.
> 
> Almost certainly too young to have known Madara before he died (when Nagato was still "little").
> 
> ...



Alright, thanks!
And what about the Izuna = Tobi theory?
I'm asking to get a concrete list of facts, as you just provided. =)


----------



## Marsala (Jul 9, 2012)

Scizor said:


> Alright, thanks!
> And what about the Izuna = Tobi theory?
> I'm asking to get a concrete list of facts, as you just provided. =)



Izuna is so unimportant that his name has never been given in the manga. He only exists as a part of the EMS backstory, which was only introduced to provide both apparent and true motivation to Itachi in his fight with Sasuke. It also allowed the crow to be intended for Sasuke but work on Itachi as well, I guess. Overall, though, EMS is not a significant enhancement beyond MS.

Also, Madara thought of Izuna as dead while believing that the war must be "his", i.e. Tobi's, doing.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 9, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Izuna is so unimportant that his name has never been given in the manga. He only exists as a part of the EMS backstory, which was only introduced to provide both apparent and true motivation to Itachi in his fight with Sasuke. It also allowed the crow to be intended for Sasuke but work on Itachi as well, I guess. Overall, though, EMS is not a significant enhancement beyond MS.
> 
> Also, Madara thought of him as dead while believing that the war must be "his", i.e. Tobi's, doing.



Thanks for the confirmation.


----------



## Amatérasu’s Son (Jul 9, 2012)

Sarahmint said:


> Is it just me, or does the poster look like it comes from 4chan?  And why does no one mentions the weapon that Tobi uses is probably Senju?  It looks like the Senju crest for symbol's sake.


The War Fan?

That bad boy a Gunmei I believe it's called, is Madara's old weapon, and it also looks like two stacked Uchiha Fans.


Yuna said:


> Looks nothing like Kagami except maybe the mouth.


Tobi? Who's mouth we haven't seen yet?


TobiUchiha111 said:


> It's not Kagami. Just, no.
> 
> Kagami's team teamed up with Tobirama's team for ONE mission in the entire FGSWW(First Great Shinobi World War). Tobirama wouldn't have had the time to teach him anything. Plus, Kagami was in 1 chapter. Who's gonna recognize him" Barely any of the fans will, neither will anyone currently fighting him in the manga. Kagami was introduced almost 300 chapters after Tobi's introduction. It just doesn't add up....
> 
> Here we have it, folks.


I don't understand the opposition.

Kagami is in the right age group, was in a position to see the Senju Uchiha conflict from the inside, and was likely extremely powerful.

We don't know how that team structure was set up. It could've been a temporary team up like with the Eight Man Uchiha hunt squad, or teams that regularly worked together.

And part of having a mystery means that he doesn't have to be shown all the time or mentioned. You name drop him once. Then you leave him in the back of the mind. That way when the reveal comes out it's I remember that guy.

We also don't know who Danzo's actual sensei was. Considering where his ideals went, him having a team mate on the "other side" that was exposed to a similar ideology makes sense, for someone who became Tobi.

And perhaps the name Kagami (mirror) is indicative of a mirror of Danzo or his ideals. He also seemed to know Danzo quite well.

Kagami has potential.


MissinqNin said:


> I see this thread as a battle of headless Roosters. Now entertain me.
> 
> 
> MN out.


Sounds like a circumcision gone wrong to me 


MYJC said:


> I honestly don't know.
> 
> Tobi being Kagami (a character who appeared on one chapter and had like one line of dialogue) or Izuna (who isn't even named in the manga) would be the most anticlimactic reveal in the history of manga.
> 
> ...


Again I disagree.

Izuna in my opinion makes the most sense. He was in the position to know everything Tobi does, and is someone that Madara trusts enough to do this plan after his death.

That said, you've already spoken on my version of that theory, so you know we have views along the same lines.

Here it is for those who haven't seen it. It's old, but I'm quite proud of it.



Marsala said:


> Izuna is so unimportant that his name has never been given in the manga. He only exists as a part of the EMS backstory, which was only introduced to provide both apparent and true motivation to Itachi in his fight with Sasuke. It also allowed the crow to be intended for Sasuke but work on Itachi as well, I guess. Overall, though, EMS is not a significant enhancement beyond MS.
> 
> Also, Madara thought of Izuna as dead while believing that the war must be "his", i.e. Tobi's, doing.



We haven't seen that definitively. About the EMS. Consider the gap between Sasuke and Itachi's Susano'o and Madara's. If that is the EMS at work then there is a significant there indeed.

And you should know by now that being dead is not a limiter on how much one can influence events.


----------



## Asherah (Jul 9, 2012)

Marsala said:


> *Izuna is so unimportant that his name has never been given in the manga.* He only exists as a part of the EMS backstory, which was only introduced to provide both apparent and true motivation to Itachi in his fight with Sasuke. It also allowed the crow to be intended for Sasuke but work on Itachi as well, I guess. Overall, though, EMS is not a significant enhancement beyond MS.
> 
> Also, Madara thought of Izuna as dead while believing that the war must be "his", i.e. Tobi's, doing.



That would fit rather nicely with Tobi's line about being no-one. The fact that we have flashbacks with his face in and that he's a close relative of Madara is enough to give him relevance for most people. Maybe not for you, but for most. Especially given how all the major villains so far, even Orochimaru, are made the way they are by losing people they care about. Madara must have emotional attachments, or he's going to be a completely flat character. And I don't think Kishi is that bad a writer. 

Also, I don't think death can really rule out anything in the Naruto world anymore. It's not the final, permanent status it is in our reality.


----------



## NW (Jul 9, 2012)

Marsala said:


> It's just too absurd for Obito to have become Tobi. Did Rin die and he decided to destroy the world or something? That's worse than Sasuke's emo fit! Besides, we already had Naruto's evil counterpart: Uzumaki Nagato. Even their names were identical except for one syllable.


Of course Rin isn't the only part of his motive. There are a few other possible things that I can think of that could drive him. Obito was literally an EXACT parallel to Naruto. I'm not kidding. Just saying, the final villain should be the ultimate culmination of the opposite of all the main character's morals. Besides, of course we don't know his motive yet, that's saved for after the reveal. And, if you look at Kishi's villain theme, writing style, and japanese mythology, obito is the most likely candidate.



Amat?rasu’s Son said:


> I don't understand the opposition.
> 
> Kagami is in the right age group, was in a position to see the Senju Uchiha conflict from the inside, and was likely extremely powerful.
> 
> ...



Kagami: Just no. Kagami was introduced 200 chapters after Tobi. Kishi would have at least brought him up more if he was Tobi. Plus, it just doesn't make sense at all. It doesn't even seem like a solid theory, he was in one chapter. if I had never heard this theory before, and someone told it to me, I'd immediately assume they were joking. No one fighting Tobi will recognize Kagami. And neither will the fans, for that matter.

Izuna: Come on. He was only in what, 4 panels? He had no lines. And his name wasn't even mentioned in the manga. If Kishi wanted him to have an impact on us, he would have expanded more on him.



Asherah said:


> *That would fit rather nicely with Tobi's line about being no-one.* The fact that we have flashbacks with his face in and that he's a close relative of Madara is enough to give him relevance for most people. Maybe not for you, but for most. *Especially given how all the major villains so far, even Orochimaru, are made the way they are by losing people they care about.* Madara must have emotional attachments, or he's going to be a completely flat character.



Bolded 1: So what, now Izuna's aware that he's in a manga and his name wasn't mentioned in it? LMAO!

Bolded 2: Obito fits this pattern as well. He could have lost Rin. That, his increased hatred for war for scarring him and for killing Rin, and further corruption by Madara, including Madara telling him about the horrible history of the uchiha clan, may have led to him being Tobi.


----------



## Yuna (Jul 9, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Also, Madara thought of Izuna as dead while believing that the war must be "his", i.e. Tobi's, doing.


No, Madara has *told others* that Izuna is dead. I don't remember Madara ever [b}thinking[/b] about it to himself.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 9, 2012)

Why it's not obito: Obito never fought Hashirama nor met Madara, nor was alive when Nagato was born.
Why it's not Kagami: Had to google his name to find out who he is + He probably never fought Hashirama.


----------



## NW (Jul 9, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Why it's not obito: Obito never fought Hashirama nor met Madara, nor was alive when Nagato was born.
> Why it's not Kagami: Had to google his name to find out who he is + He probably never fought Hashirama.


Tobi never fought Hashirama. -__-

And it was probably Madara who gave Nagato the rinnegan, not Tobi, so obito didn't necessarily have to have been alive in Nagato's time.


----------



## DelRappy (Jul 9, 2012)

I'm still betting on Kakashi. Yes, lots of explaining would have to be done, but I'm sure Kishi can come up with a feasible story, since this is a manga about instantaneously created clones and people who switch places really quickly with stuff. The name "Tobi" could be related to Obito, maybe even being a mindset that Kakashi created to cope with Obito's death, or whatever.

And it probably wouldn't have been the same Tobi from older flashbacks, in that case. It would have to be a sequence of people passing on an ideology. I suppose it's either that, or Tobi's immortal, anyway, since he doesn't seem old enough to have done all that he's been said to have done.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 9, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> And it was probably Madara who gave Nagato the rinnegan, not Tobi, so obito didn't necessarily have to have been alive in Nagato's time.



So Madara took his own eyeballs out and then installed them in Nagato? Talk about blind surgery.


----------



## NW (Jul 9, 2012)

Marsala said:


> So Madara took his own eyeballs out and then installed them in Nagato? Talk about blind surgery.


Madara may have given Nagato the Rinnegan is some other way. Meaning, he gave Nagato the requirements to attain Rinnegan, indirectly giving it to him, while not actually physically giving him his eyes. I have evidence as well.

When Madara was resurrected with Edo Tensei, he assumed that Nagato used Rinne Tensei to resurrect him, yet he wasn't at all surprised that his eyes were still intact. So, if he really thought that Nagato used _his_ own eyes to resurrect him, then wouldn't he have been shocked to still have his eyes upon resurrection?


----------



## gjoerulv (Jul 10, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Heavily hinted? it's freaking confirmed he's not Madara! And besides, Tobi still being Madara somehow(which he isn't) would be so anti-climactic. And Tobi acts nothing like Madara.
> 
> Obito is the only logical answer considering Japanese mythology, themes, storytelling, abilities, appearance, Tobi's dark outlook on life, and Kishi's writing style. It all just screams Obito.



I don't say he is Madara with 100% certainty. And it's not confirmed that it's not. It's not confirmed how Madara fooled Edo Tensei either. The fact that Nagato, who Madara apperantly knew and expected things from, recognised Tobi as Madara should still count favourable towards Tobi = Madara. There are others factors as well but none are conclusive. The Obito = Tobi "facts" are not conclusive either.

Tobi not acting like Madara? I would rather say Tobi act nothing like Obito. If you think Obito is the only logical answer you need to address this. Those other points you mentioned somewhat smell like wishful thinking. I'm not denying Obito = Tobi, I'm just saying it's not that "in your face" evident as you want it to be.

Because nothing is 100% conclusive Kishi must in any case bring forth (considering the theories here) some short of explanation. The peices that remains to nail Tobi's ID will most likely include new information, not yet seen by any, that could favor any theory. This should be obvious. In the case Obito = Tobi, his personality change needs to be explained (new information). Not to mention how he still lives.


----------



## Sanimaru (Jul 10, 2012)

Maybe Madara had a son. That would make since because:

Madara would "live" inside of him. (Remember when Itachi said that he was very much alive?)
He would have a motive for his actions : Revenge.
There is nothing that indicates Madara _didn't_ have children.

This sounds more logical than the "Tobi is Madara" theory. The is *NO* possible way unless Madara had two souls.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 10, 2012)

Marsala said:


> So Madara took his own eyeballs out and then installed them in Nagato? Talk about blind surgery.



tobi took care of the formalities. they've been working for together for quite some time


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 10, 2012)

Sanimaru said:


> Maybe Madara had a son. That would make since because:
> 
> Madara would "live" inside of him. (Remember when Itachi said that he was very much alive?)
> He would have a motive for his actions : Revenge.
> ...



People still think Tobi is Madara?

wut


----------



## Sanimaru (Jul 10, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> People still think Tobi is Madara?
> 
> wut



As idiotic as it sounds, yes. They believe Tobi is Madara with all of their heart and soul.


----------



## Asherah (Jul 10, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Bolded 1: So what, now Izuna's aware that he's in a manga and his name wasn't mentioned in it? LMAO!



Er, no. You've taken what I said in the wrong direction entirely. I mean that Madara is the famous figure who every ninja in the world seems to know about. And no-one's even mentioned Izuna's name. Madara is the one who has a statue to mark his battle with Hashirama at the VotE. Madara was the one who became known as the first founder of the Uchiha clan. Izuna has become forgotten to the ninja world, yet without his eyes Madara would never have accomplished anything that he's now famous for.

That's what I meant about the 'no-one' line fitting.


----------



## Haterfagg (Jul 10, 2012)

Can't be obito, cuz when tobi showed up with the ninetails kakashi was a kid (or teen) still!


----------



## Talis (Jul 10, 2012)

Haterfagg said:


> Can't be obito, cuz when tobi showed up with the ninetails kakashi was a kid (or teen) still!


And so was a 13-15 years old Itachi when he partnered Kisame, they had pretty much the same height.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 10, 2012)

Tobi is Obito's father... Uchiha Kagami

Kakashi will mistaken Tobi for Obito when the mask comes off

then the sobstory flashbacks will begin


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 10, 2012)

Well I have two thoughts.

One being Kagami the other being some Madara clone.

Why I think Kagami:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Mainly as Tobi stated he and Danzo met during a certain Uchiha Incident.
It seems as strikingly odd that while Hiruzen,Homura,Koharu and EVEN TORIFU were shown fighting the kyuubi yet no trace of Danzo and Tobi.
Meanwhile Tobi somehow obtained the knowledge of Narutos birthplace which was stated to be only know by very few including (as statement) the elders.

In addition:
It's been stated that Madara isn't a mere person but an Ideal.
During Tobi's flashback we are shown that due to Tobirama deceiving the Uchiha that there were people in the clan who rebelled and intended to follow into Madaras footsteps.We even see them standing in front of a monument with Madaras written on it.
Denial about this is merely ignorance as the statement of Madara being an Ideal and some Uchiha rebelling due to Tobirama fits 100% especially when a guy walks around masked claiming to be Madara and also by Tobi.

One could also say that Kagami fits into the Massacre pattern.
Who were the elders:
Hiruzen,Koharu,Homura and Danzo.
Meanwhile a masked man walks around going by the name of Tobi and with the high possibility that this man is a Uchiha Rebel from Tobiramas Era then it would also fit that Tobi is Kagami.
As we get this pattern:
Among the main People of the Massacre were 5 People of Tobiramas appearant last squad.Even if its only 4 the fact that a man going by the name of Tobi worked in the shadows to take out the Clan with the elders doing as well and connected to Tobirama.
The would be only one man missing and that is Torifu.
There is one thing left to find out about the Uchiha Massacre and that is what Tobi did that night.
However we do know this:
Tobi had a reason to change his mask as it was different from the whirl pattern.
Speculation part here:
I suppose you know the reason why Tobi had to change his last one.
Due to being destroyed.
Tell me as well:
What is the sense to show Torifu battled and survived the Kyuubi rampage only for him to be missing up until know.
Even if he is a minor character it's simply stupid to show that he survived the rampage only for him to die due to an unknown reason or still having his status unknown.
Incase you wonder:
Yes I propose that in the night of the massacre Tobi had an encounter with Torifu and engaged in battle resulting in Tobis old mask getting shattered.
Speculation end.

There is also something that strikes me as odd.
That is the comparison to Tobiramas S/T Jutsu by Minato.

Putting ignorance aside look at it this way:
Uchiha Rebels during Tobiramas era.
They intended to follow Madara.
They hated the Senju and Nidaime.
A masked man is using Madaras name.
Who is stated to be an Ideal.
At the same time said man is also going by the name of Tobi.
Tobi and Danzo met during a Uchiha Incident.
Kyuubi Incident was blamed on the Uchiha.
Kagami and Danzo were both missing.
Tobi had classified knowledge regarding the birth.
Tobi's S/T Jutsu got compared to Tobirama.
4 Members from Tobiramas squad are involved with the Massacre.
At the same time a man called Tobi operates as well who very possibly is related to the Uchiha rebels and Madara sympathizers.
Tobis actions of that night are unknown.
He had a reason to get a new mask.
Torifu is missing ever since the rampage.
Yet we know he survived.
That would put all 6 members of Tobiramas last squad to be involved in the massacre.
Which is an ironic but possible symbolic factor as Tobirama deceived them and his team caused their downfall.




Why I think of the Clone or sorts:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Mythical aspect.
Lets look at Sasuke:
The embodiment of Kagutsuchi.
Kagutsuchi's blood gave birth to several deities who's properties are part of Sasuke's character.
EG:
Takemikazuchi: God of Lightning and Swords.Ujigami of bowyers.
Nesaku: A God relating to the power of lightning.Capable to shred wood with it.
Exactly what Sasuke did in his first encounter with Yamato.

Meanwhile Itachi:
Totsuka Sword.
Yata Mirror.
Yasakani no Magatama.
All relating the children of Izanagi.
Hence the scene of Susanoo slaying the 8 headed snake.

If Sasuke = Kagutsuchi
And Itachi = Amaterasu,Susanoo and Tsukuyomi.

Then we also have someone who fits into the category of Izanami.
Izanami was sent to Hell after her death though able to be saved.
However the reason why she wasn't is because she spent too long within Yomi.
Those who are sent to Yomi continue to exist as a mere shadow.

Tobi:
Has a Jutsu that transports him into an appearant other world.
He can only keep it up for a certain amount of time.
Tobi claims to be a shadow of his former self.

I'm saying:
The other world = Yomi.
He can't use it for too long as it would mean he gets sucked into it for good.
However this enable him to become a shadow (Intangibility).
Perhaps this even a Jutsu named Yomi.

Anyway lets look at Izanagi:
Not much to say here except this:
Izanagi one was the rule of all though later divided the world into several parts.
This might fit with Hashirama creating the village system or dividing the tailed beasts among the villages.

Izanami and Izanagi are like Yin and Yang.
Just how the two Jutsu form a pair so does the myth of Madara and Hashirama.
Two sides of the same coin.


----------



## cokshura (Jul 10, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Tobi is Obito's father... Uchiha Kagami
> 
> Kakashi will mistaken Tobi for Obito when the mask comes off
> 
> then the sobstory flashbacks will begin



If Kagami is Obito's father, Obito's death would be perfect motivation to hold a Grudge against the village. Not so sure about a grudge against the clan though. But I can see this happening...


----------



## NW (Jul 10, 2012)

*Spoilers/Spam...*



gjoerulv said:


> I don't say he is Madara with 100% certainty. And it's not confirmed that it's not. It's not confirmed how Madara fooled Edo Tensei either. The fact that Nagato, who Madara apperantly knew and expected things from, recognised Tobi as Madara should still count favourable towards Tobi = Madara. There are others factors as well but none are conclusive. The Obito = Tobi "facts" are not conclusive either.
> 
> Tobi not acting like Madara? I would rather say Tobi act nothing like Obito. If you think Obito is the only logical answer you need to address this. Those other points you mentioned somewhat smell like wishful thinking. I'm not denying Obito = Tobi, I'm just saying it's not that "in your face" evident as you want it to be.
> 
> Because nothing is 100% conclusive Kishi must in any case bring forth (considering the theories here) some short of explanation. The peices that remains to nail Tobi's ID will most likely include new information, not yet seen by any, that could favor any theory. This should be obvious. In the case Obito = Tobi, his personality change needs to be explained (new information). Not to mention how he still lives.


Actually, the evidence supporting Obito is very conclusive. if you'd like, I could PM you all the evidence have. As i'm not going to state it here for the umteenth time.



Sanimaru said:


> Maybe Madara had a son. That would make since because:
> 
> Madara would "live" inside of him. (Remember when Itachi said that he was very much alive?)
> He would have a motive for his actions : Revenge.
> ...


That would be anti-climactic. He's got to be someone we've seen before.



Asherah said:


> Er, no. You've taken what I said in the wrong direction entirely. I mean that Madara is the famous figure who every ninja in the world seems to know about. And no-one's even mentioned Izuna's name. Madara is the one who has a statue to mark his battle with Hashirama at the VotE. Madara was the one who became known as the first founder of the Uchiha clan. Izuna has become forgotten to the ninja world, yet without his eyes Madara would never have accomplished anything that he's now famous for.
> 
> That's what I meant about the 'no-one' line fitting.


Okay, you're point is clearer now, but I don't really think it's strong enough. I mean, Izuna had no lines, his name wasn't mentioned, he was just a background character to explain EMS, he wasn't intended as anything more.



jacamo said:


> Tobi is Obito's father... Uchiha Kagami
> 
> Kakashi will mistaken Tobi for Obito when the mask comes off
> 
> then the sobstory flashbacks will begin


Tobi is not going to be someone we've seen before.



Scarlet Plague said:


> Well I have two thoughts.
> 
> One being Kagami the other being some Madara clone.
> 
> ...


Wow, the Kagami thing was okay, but I still highly doubt it. About the whole Madara clone thing, that actually was well thought out.But then again, anything sounds good when you add japanese mythology to it. And what you said could actually apply to Madara getting Edo Tensei'd. Still, I don't like the theory, but it was well thought out. It kind of seems plausible.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 10, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Actually, the evidence supporting Obito is very conclusive. if you'd like, I could PM you all the evidence have. As i'm not going to state it here for the umteenth time.



I'd like such a PM.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 10, 2012)

Same here if I may.


----------



## NW (Jul 10, 2012)

Scizor said:


> I'd like such a PM.





Scarlet Plague said:


> Same here if I may.



Very well.


----------



## Chroz (Jul 10, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> _
> That would be anti-climactic. He's got to be someone we've seen before..
> ..
> 
> Tobi is not going to be someone we've seen before._



wat. 

By the way - Tobi = Izuna. It would make the most sense.


----------



## Xparn (Jul 10, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Very well.



I would like to see this as well,


----------



## NW (Jul 10, 2012)

Chroz said:


> wat.
> 
> By the way - Tobi = Izuna. It would make the most sense.


Sorry, lol. Typo. I meant, he's got to be someone we've seen before.



Xparn said:


> I would like to see this as well,


As you wish.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 10, 2012)

Chroz said:


> wat.
> 
> By the way - Tobi = Izuna. It would make the most sense.



Apart from Madara stating Izuna is dead leaving only his eye and their power behind.

Unless that is a mistranslation or kishi pulls something out like:
Dying isn't the same as being dead.


----------



## RTpmwe (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm also interested in this very inclusive evidence explaining all plotholes with Tobito theory


----------



## NW (Jul 10, 2012)

RTpmwe said:


> I'm also interested in this very inclusive evidence explaining all plotholes with Tobito theory


You know what? Screw you all! I've got people up the ass asking for this shit! Fine. You're the last person though.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 10, 2012)

Just copy and paste.


----------



## NW (Jul 10, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> Just copy and paste.


That's what I've been doing. It's still bothersome though.


----------



## Yoroi Mitarashi (Jul 10, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> That's what I've been doing. It's still bothersome though.


 For the sake of Tobito being the ultimate truth, it wouldn't be too bothersome, now would it?

I would like a PM please


----------



## Talis (Jul 10, 2012)

I can show you 2 things which confirms Tobito pretty much, first Sutol's post; 
1st 2 panel of the salute pretty much shits on every single theory already but anyways if you think that its coincidence, then theres another one; Hachimon Gai,  third panel Tobi has no scars on his face side which we didn't have see yet, because Kishi blackened that out at Konans fight or else it would have been too obvious that he was Obito.
And look how he's standing in front of a wall which has a bunch of boulders, just lol.
And don't forget the Kakashis year which got skipped many times and Kishi promised it for real this year to make it happen which is on the edge of Tobi's mask going to break.


----------



## Chroz (Jul 10, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> Apart from Madara stating Izuna is dead leaving only his eye and their power behind.
> 
> Unless that is a mistranslation or kishi pulls something out like:
> Dying isn't the same as being dead.



*Cough* Orochimaru *Cough* 

But no I get your point. Obito doesn't make sense. (No it doesn't - Fuck off). Fugaku, or any other Uchiha Fodder is just senseless. 

Buuuuuuuuuuut aside from that, I've, like many others I think, given up on Tobi's identity. It's too mindfucking. Reading half of the retarded stuff here, contemplating who's a troll and not, heck I've even had several real life dreams of Tobi revealing who the fuck he was. (I know it's disturbing). I GIVE UP. 

All I know is that Madara, Tobi, Kakashi, Orochimaru (Kabuto) and possibly Obito in some senseless way are linked with each other.


----------



## NW (Jul 10, 2012)

Chroz said:


> *Cough* Orochimaru *Cough*
> 
> But no I get your point. Obito doesn't make sense. (No it doesn't - Fuck off). Fugaku, or any other Uchiha Fodder is just senseless.
> 
> ...


You do realize that Izuna makes next to no sense, right? He was in only a few panels, his name wasn't mentioned in the manga, he had no lines. He's just a random throwaway fodder character who's only purpose was to explain EMS. It doesn't make sense for him to be the final villain. it just doesn't. Obito makes the most sense at this point.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 10, 2012)

Are you high?


> "But no I get your point But no I get your point. Obito doesn't make sense. (No it doesn't - Fuck off). Fugaku, or any other Uchiha Fodder is just senseless"


Said nothing in that likes in my reply to you so what the hell are you on about?
My only point was Izuna and Madara's statement towards his status nothing more.Nothing less.



> Obito makes the most sense at this point.



While I admit I'm not the strongest Tobito believer I gotta say some things do make sense especially when I look at the resemblance between Tobi's warping and Kamui and the former mirror effect with the mask and covered eye.

Again, I ain't the strongest believer but I also ain't the kind of person to call other theories downright bullshit.I respect other theories even if I disagree with them.
Unless they're complete garbage of course like Tobi = Konohamaru from the future travelling back in time due to resenting Naruto meanwhile Hokage after having defeating Kakashi obtaining his MS.


----------



## alienworkshopguy (Jul 11, 2012)

I'm actually starting to think "Tobi" may be Uchiha Kagami. Danzo and Kagami were on the same team and "could" have had similar ideals or ways of thinking, but thats just speculation. Well Danzo created root which happens to have identical teachings as the bloody mist, according to Yamato. Now "tobi" was controlling the forth Mizukage so based on that "tobi" has a possibilty of being Kagami.

Also,in accordance to the above, Sai is just a random name given to him in root, according to roots teaching Sai is "no body", this is also what "tobi" thinks about him self, as "no body". There could be a correlation.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 11, 2012)

Tobi = Obito is impossible..... too many plotholes




jacamo said:


> chapter references are all from narutobase
> 
> *Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504)*
> There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.
> ...


----------



## Talis (Jul 11, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Tobi = Obito is impossible..... too many plotholes


Troll guy is troll.
Enough people gave already explantations about these ''holes'', and yet i am waiting for your Kagami theories answers since all these ''plotholes'' for Obito goes the same for Kagami. 
Oh wait what plot for Kagami? Did he actually had a plot to find plotholes in his theory lol, just come up with some random thoughts and call that a theory.
I can do that with every single character in Naruto.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 11, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Troll guy is troll.
> Enough people gave already explantations about these ''holes'', and yet i am waiting for your Kagami theories answers since all these ''plotholes'' for Obito goes the same for Kagami.
> Oh wait what plot for Kagami? Did he actually had a plot to find plotholes in his theory lol.



I haven't seen people explain the plotholes jacamo posted. Could someone please explain how said plotholes aren't plotholes in the case of Tobi being Obito?


----------



## Talis (Jul 11, 2012)

Scizor said:


> I haven't seen people explain the plotholes jacamo posted. Could someone please explain how said plotholes aren't plotholes in the case of Tobi being Obito?


Good it didnt take that long to find the right page lol;


----------



## Scizor (Jul 11, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Good it didnt take that long to find the right page lol;





loool3 said:


> 1: So what, it doesn't matter, Naruto Sasuke turned also from a small Ninja into a RS within 3-4 years, and besides what power are you talking about?
> That coward ''vanishing away'' technique?
> Give Sakura that technique and he also will give Minato a hard time.
> 
> ...



*1.* First of all 2-4 years is quite different from 1-2 years. And Obito just awakened his sharingan before he died (meaning he was at the beginning of his journey for power) so get that strong in 1-2 years can definately be seen as a plothole.

*2.* Those characters did not turn their personalities 180 degrees. They gradually changed due to the events that took place around them. So this can still certainly be seen as a plothole.

*3.* Alright.

*4.* Yes, that's also a plothole for Kagami being Tobi. But the keyword is 'also', as it certainly also is a plothole for Obito being Tobi as Kurama didn't get to see any of them while being sealed in Mito and later in Kushina.

*5.* Zetsu boosting his size is silly. Then he'd be walking around with one leg being severly longer than the other (his own leg). And this is just an assumption anyway, which can't be used in a debate like this.
And comparing hights doesn't really get you anywhere as it doesn't tell you anything about Obito's actual size. And, besides that, Naruto was actually shorter than his father (Shown here and here). But even if you were right, comparing character sizes doesn't prove anything in the end. The fact stays that Tobi had a mature posture when fighting Minato, when Tobi shouldn't have had that at that time.

*6.* That's just an assumption and a little far-fetched one at that. Minato came really close to Tobi and didn't notice anything. That is peculiar to say the least, so this can certainly, without making baseless assumptions, be seen as a plothole.

*7.* Also an assumption which doesn't undermine the plothole as it is baseless atm.

*8.* Stating that he sees a generally known fact over something personal in Naruto is quite silly. 

*9.* Also an assumption.

*10.* Also an assumption. it would be weird for Obito to gain such knowledge without any evident source.

*conclusion:* ten quite serious plotholes for Tobi being Obito. 
I'm open to any theory and I'd be content with nearly every possible identity Tobi might end up having, but your 'proof' sure isn't enough to convince me, especially when comparing it to jamaco's plotholes.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 11, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Tobi = Obito is impossible..... too many plotholes



1. Sasuke in a few weeks or days master Susanoo, 3rd stage Sharingan during a fight with Naruto.  Eye techniques do not need training.  If Obito had the ability to phase and teleport from his eye how long should it take to master?  2 years isn't enough?  

If Obito had training or reading the tablet could have learned how all of that.  The purpose of Sharingan/MS is Kyuubi control and Kushina's seal was already almost broken.  Naruto mastered SoSP seal all by himself and he's no genius.  

2. Nagato turned from a cry baby to a death god of pain.  Plot can easily write personality changes like Rin's mystery death or NEARLY dying in war and brain washing etc.  His goofy personality was close to Obito.

3. Two years can be a long time. Try being in jail for two years and see how long it is.  

4. Kurama has not shown any ability to sense chakra just evil.  Though he seemed to think Sasuke and Madara had similar chakra as well.

5. Obito would have been 15-16.  I grew two inches or more every year from the time I was 12 or 13.   I was 5'10-6' at 15-16, my best friend was 5'11 at 14...  Minato is 5'9.

6.  Why would he figure out a masked man with a S/T tech to a dead person who was poor below average Uchiha?  Tobi uses 99% eye techniques.

7.  We don't know who Madara was assuming he was.  Maybe he thought Oro or the second Hokage or Zetsu for all we know.  When Kabuto elaborated on the plan maybe not being followed by fake Madara.  Madara just [....].  It's far from certain who he was talking about.  

8.  He was pretending to be Madara and knew his stuff.  Obviously everything he said made him seem like Madara though we know his personality is different.

9.  Obviously goes into Tobi's indenity crisis since we know he's not Madara and did not fight him where he says.  Madara doesn't seem like a liar and continously talks about Hashirama.

10.  He read the Uchiha tablet and had Nagato read the Uchiha tablet.  He could have gain knowledge from being in the Moon's Eye plot.  He could have gain knowledge from anywhere.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 11, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> 1. Sasuke in a few weeks or days master Susanoo, 3rd stage Sharingan during a fight with Naruto.  Eye techniques do not need training.  If Obito had the ability to phase and teleport from his eye how long should it take to master?  2 years isn't enough?
> 
> If Obito had training or reading the tablet could have learned how all of that.  The purpose of Sharingan/MS is Kyuubi control and Kushina's seal was already almost broken.  Naruto mastered SoSP seal all by himself and he's no genius.
> 
> ...



*1.* That's not true. Sasuke also trained during the timeskip and Sasuke still hasn't mastered Susanoo as far as we know.

*2.* Nagato changed due to the events that happened around him. And Obito's beliefs are what make such a change unlikely for him.

*3.* He obviously means a relatively long time, which isn't two years. 

*4.* But he couldn't have seen Obito.

*5.* Comparing heights won't provide evidence for Obito's hight in the end. The fact is that Tobi was portrayed as an adult, which Obito wasn't at that time.

*6.* Because bonds are a theme, too. Even slightly foreshadowing had been enough, but he didn't notice anything, which is weird for a master/student relationship in this manga. And with saying that you kind of acknowledge point 1 having ground.

*7.* That's an assumption, while Madara implied he knew who he was.

*8.* Which implies Tobi lived during said period.

*9.* I wouldn't call it an identity crisis. But this still implies he did live during that time.

*10.* But Nagato is much older than Obito. And the rest are just assumptions (and the tablet only gets one so far, Tobi knows more than Obito could have learned this way).


----------



## Talis (Jul 11, 2012)

Scizor said:


> 1. First of all 2-4 years is quite different from 1-2 years. And Obito just awakened his sharingan before he died (meaning he was at the beginning of his journey for power) so get that strong in 1-2 years can definately be seen as a plothole.


What power are you talking about?
People acts like Tobi is insanely strong as Madara.
He clearly isn't, the only thing he has is his incredible defense which is the S/T, even when he fought against Minato he had to count on the dual weapon thing lol.
Even when he fought against fodders like Fuu and Torune what did he do?
Did he threw meteors? No the only thing he did was touching them here and there and hiding in the ground (like Kakashi lol) and using his own Zetsu arm as a weapon.


> 2. Those characters did not turn their personalities 180 degrees. They gradually changed due to the events that took place around them. So this can still certainly be seen as a plothole.


Someone like Obito which offered his life and eye for his friend was left behind.
Minato probably didn't even cared in finding his corpse lol.
Tobi even said that there was ''no hope'' anymore in the world which implies that he was a good guy before which had hope in the world like Obito, and again tons of characters changed their pesonality in Naruto thats clearly a fact.
And don't forget the ''Uchiha's hatred cycle'' Kishi left a lot of such things behind which can be simply meant for fodder characters like Obito.
He even said that anyone with the Senju/Uchiha Dna can controle Kyuubi.


> 4. Yes, that's also a plothole for Kagami being Tobi. But the keyword is 'also', as it certainly also is a plothole for Obito being Tobi as Kurama didn't get to see any of them while being sealed in Mito and later in Kushina.


Anyways it's not even clear whether Kyuubi did recognize Tobi or not.
He just said ''hey you?''
He might have thought that it was actually Madara since he was the only one which controled him before, it could be seen as a ''first reaction''.


> 6. That's just an assumption and a little far-fetched one at that. Minato came really close to Tobi and didn't notice anything. That is peculiar to say the least, so this can certainly, without making baseless assumptions, be seen as a plothole.


Like some people said before, Sasuke chakra also did change and became darker as his hatred did/and any master with a good heart student would doubt in such cases especially in a good hearted Obito's case which comes back after 2 years with a mask. He even had Hashiramas chakra inside of him which changed his chakra obviously.
Hell even Hiruzen almost doubted the guy attacking him being Orochimaru while he still had his own chakra.


> 8. Stating that he sees a generally known fact over something personal in Naruto is quite silly.


But that was also back then when he was playing as Madara around also a thing to distract readers to make them believe Tobi being Madara.


> 9. Also an assumption.


The question itself is also an assumption lol, that line was just obviously to distract the readers


> 10. Also an assumption. it would be weird for Obito to gain such knowledge without any evident source.


Not, any Tobi candidate obviously read the stone, RS stories were going around everywhere as a MYTH.
The only way to confirm it is reading the stone unless you support the elder sons theory.


> 5. Comparing heights won't provide evidence for Obito's hight in the end. The fact is that Tobi was portrayed as an adult, which Obito wasn't at that time.


I didn't answered this on the previous post since you said that it doesn't matter but i'll do it anyays; [SP][/SP]
^13-15 years old Itachi is even tall as a ~20 years old Kisame
[SP][/SP]
^16~ years old Naruto even tall as Minato...

And for the final touch; [SP][/SP]
Look how freaking tall Kishi drew them, obviously just for Obito's reason, and Obito was even taller then Kakashi in the gaiden.


----------



## Asherah (Jul 11, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Okay, you're point is clearer now, but I don't really think it's strong enough. I mean, Izuna had no lines, his name wasn't mentioned, he was just a background character to explain EMS, *he wasn't intended as anything more.*



You can't prove that. Only Kishimoto can confirm it. 

Have a look at jacamo's post for some Obito plotholes. They're more concrete evidence than 'it looks kinda like scars so must be Obito' or whatever is being touted as the main argument these days. There are definitely hints that tie up with the theory (I'm sure Kishi included some on purpose) but they don't go anywhere near to cancelling out all the other conflicting points about how he needs to be much older. Or are you arguing it isn't Obito, mind and body, but a mixture with some other character? Could you PM me the retorts to these points if you don't want to paste them here again?  

Sidenote to discussion. The main reason I favour Izuna over Kagami is because of plot relevance. Madara's little brother is always going to be more important to the elder son vs younger son and chain of hatred stuff than an Uchiha who has no connection to current important characters. Kishi loves him some brotherly drama. Izuna has motives for being pissed off; we can only invent and guess what Kagami's or Tobito's would be. There's also two other clues that make me believe Izuna is more likely than Kagami. One and two, both of which have been brought out plenty of times before.



			
				jacamo said:
			
		

> Plothole Number 11: Nagato is much older than Obito
> 
> Why is this important? Because Tobi GAVE Nagato the Rinnegan. In other words, it is impossible for Obito to have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan because Obito is much younger than Nagato.



Can any Obito defender counter this?


----------



## Scizor (Jul 11, 2012)

loool3 said:


> What power are you talking about?
> People acts like Tobi is insanely strong as Madara.
> He clearly isn't, the only thing he has is his incredible defense which is the S/T, even when he fought against Minato he had to count on the dual weapon thing lol.
> Even when he fought against fodders like Fuu and Torune what did he do?
> ...



 The power I meant is the control over his sharingan.

 They didn't suddenly change.

 Kishimoto would have expanded on that if that were the case. The Kyuubi recognised the one before him, that sure can be taken as a fact.

 All assumptions as the darkening of chakra doesn't necissarily make it unrecognisable.

Assumptions.

They weren't going around everywhere. Only a select few know of it and Obito didn't have the means to become one of those select few.



loool3 said:


> I didn't answered this on the previous post since you said that it doesn't matter but i'll do it anyays;
> 
> ^13-15 years old Itachi is even tall as a ~20 years old Kisame
> 
> ...



It still doesn't confirm Obito's height in the end, so it's still a guessing game. 
And on that page Itachi is less tall than Kisame. Also, in the panel I linked to, Naruto is less tall than Minato, making it inconsistent. Anyway, the difference between a mature posture (Tobi) and an adolescent one (which Obito should have had around that time) stays.

As fun as this is, I'm done with debating. jacamo will do a better job anyway!


----------



## Talis (Jul 11, 2012)

Asherah said:


> Can any Obito defender counter this?


Yes, in 2 ways.
1: The masked man with the long hair was the real Madara obviously which gave Nagato the Rinnegan in some expirement way.
2: The Madara in post 1 died with the Rinnegan and Tobi gave the eye to Nagato. I don't support this one since i believe that Tobi probably should prefer to keep the eye for himself instead giving away, but it's still possible.

And before you gonna refuse the long haired masked man being the real Madara; 


Theres no reason for Tobi lying to Kisame without a mask, and Kisame wouldn't fall for it since he obviously knew how Madara looked like. (show me yourself i don't believe it)

An off paneled haircut crap doesn't exist even Sakura did have a panel for that, this goes even harder against masked mans cases, people should know it by now since Tobi isn't Madara.
And Itachi suddenly calling Tobi just Tobi is just strange since he extremely keept refering to this guy as Madara.

And the chapters name is rather suspicious: A living lie!
The living part could be reffered to Madara while the lie part refers to Tobi.

And can anyone which is against Tobito counter against;
-The 1 eye holed orange mask.
-Tobi hich is smiliar in name to Obito or in Japanese Tobi is spelled ''Bito'' backwards which means that you just miss the first O in it.
-Kakashis year which got delayed 2-3x? And Kishi said that this year it will happen for real while we are really close to Tobi's reveal moments.
-Kamui- Tobi's S/T.
-Kakashi fighting against Tobi.

And again these are facts nothing more nothing less, now tell me which theory do you support and which *facts* do you have?
Facts not random things like he is Madara's son or w/e.

And again look at *Sutol's* *post* and the first 2 panels; 



All these things wins over any assumption, just because he was a few cm smaller then Minato doesn't stop this theory.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 11, 2012)

> *1.* That's not true. Sasuke also trained during the timeskip and Sasuke still hasn't mastered Susanoo as far as we know.



Yes but as soon as he went 3rd stage could beat Naruto.  Naruto master shadow clones quickly.  Also you prove my point that Tobi had a two year gap as well.  Naruto mastered sage mode in a few weeks as well.  If you can phase and teleport how long does it really take to master if it's a physical technique and not ninjtsu?  




> *2.* Nagato changed due to the events that happened around him. And Obito's beliefs are what make such a change unlikely for him.



Nagato was a cry baby than a peace, change freedom hippy.  Uh, Obito was nearly killed in a great war.  Obito if he truly loved Rin and Rin died to some ninja nonsense it could have been the tipping point easy to write with all the poor plots in this manga.




> *3.* He obviously means a relatively long time, which isn't two years.



It's all relative.  



> *4.* But he couldn't have seen Obito.



Again Kurama cannot sense chakra like as sensor as far as we know.  He simply said Sasuke had evil(sinister) chakra and sharingan like Madara.  Not hard to assume Tobi has sinister chakra and sharingan as well.



> *5.* Comparing heights won't provide evidence for Obito's hight in the end. The fact is that Tobi was portrayed as an adult, which Obito wasn't at that time.



Itachi was presented as an adult as well or at least semi adult.  Does Sasuke come off as a child at the same age?



> *6.* Because bonds are a theme, too. Even slightly foreshadowing had been enough, but he didn't notice anything, which is weird for a master/student relationship in this manga. And with saying that you kind of acknowledge point 1 having ground.



Tobi serious acts nothing like Obito.  He uses no techniques like Obito(eyes only). He is susposed to be dead and wears a mask.  Not much to go on in a short battle.



> *7.* That's an assumption, while Madara implied he knew who he was.



It's all an assumption he never tells who it is.  And just because he assumes he knows doesn't mean he knows.  



> *8.* Which implies Tobi lived during said period.



How?  Just because you know history implies you lived it?  Just think he's impersonating a long dead person and we don't know how true the story is.  



> *9.* I wouldn't call it an identity crisis. But this still implies he did live during that time.



How does it imply anything but Tobi's a lair that pretending to be someone else or nobody?  



> *10.* But Nagato is much older than Obito. And the rest are just assumptions (and the tablet only gets one so far, Tobi knows more than Obito could have learned this way).



Tobi has read the tablet look at panel with Itachi and did admit to having Nagato read it.  He's also had 18 years to gain knowledge of Madara.


----------



## Asherah (Jul 11, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Yes, in 2 ways.
> 1: The masked man with the long hair was the real Madara obviously which gave Nagato the Rinnegan in some expirement way.



But it's the short-haired Tobi who says the eyes belonged to him in the first place, not the long-haired man, so following your line of argument this is a moot point.

Also.



			
				loool3 said:
			
		

> And can anyone which is against Tobito counter against;
> -The 1 eye holed orange mask.
> -Tobi hich is smiliar in name to Obito or in Japanese Tobi is spelled ''Bito'' backwards which means that you just miss the first O in it.
> -Kakashis year which got delayed 2-3x? And Kishi said that this year it will happen for real while we are really close to Tobi's reveal moments.
> ...



You don't understand what a fact is.

It's a fact that Tobi's mask originally had 1 eye-hole. It is NOT a fact this is because it's Obito underneath and crushed eye etc etc. That is an assumption based on a fact. 

The same goes for your other points. Yes, Kishi said it will be 'year of Kakashi' or whatever. That doesn't then lead to 'Obito must be Tobi'. 

Come up with a proper argument and get back to me.


----------



## Talis (Jul 11, 2012)

Asherah said:


> But it's the short-haired Tobi who says the eyes belonged to him in the first place, not the long-haired man, so following your line of argument this is a moot point.


The same Tobi who claimed to be Madara?
The same Tobi who said to use the Rinne Tensei on ''me''.
You must be sleepy if you still didn't realise that Tobi keept talking in Madara's perspective, and also if you still didn't see the Rinnegan in Edo Madara's eyes.



Asherah said:


> But it's the short-haired Tobi who says the eyes belonged to him in the first place, not the long-haired man, so following your line of argument this is a moot point.
> 
> Also.
> 
> ...


Oh well yes the 1 eye holed orange mask obviously refers to Sakura, i must have been too stupid to not realise that. 
The Kakashis year obviously refers to Tobito's revealing which got delayed 3x.
And anyways wheres your theory and facts, your just trying to deny my facts in a childish way.
Afraid?


----------



## Asherah (Jul 11, 2012)

loool3 said:


> The same Tobi who claimed to be Madara?
> The same Tobi who said to use the Rinne Tensei on ''me''.
> You must be sleepy if you still didn't realise that Tobi keept talking in Madara's perspective, and also if you still didn't see the Rinnegan in Edo Madara's eyes.



So, let me get this straight...you're saying that Tobito somehow knew that Madara gave his eyes to Nagato. That seems like a bit of a stretch given there's zero evidence for it. Why would Obito know enough about Madara and his motives to be able to impersonate him?



			
				loool3 said:
			
		

> Oh well yes the 1 eye holed orange masked obviously refer to Sakura, i must have been too stupid to not realise that.
> The Kakashis year obviously refers to Tobito's revealing which got delayed 3x.
> And anyways wheres your theory and facts, your just trying to deny my facts in a childish way.
> Afraid?



Firstly, I don't have a horse in this race. I don't care who it turns out to be so long as it's convincing and works with the plot. I'm simply trying to use logic to guess who's most likely. I think there's a good chance it could be a new character, too. 

Secondly, you're not being rational at all by saying things like 'Kakashi's year obviously refers to Tobito's revealing.' What? Are you Kishimoto? Where's your proof? None of what you say is a given or obvious. Take a step back and explain WHY certain facts have led you to certain assumptions. Don't write a list, write an argument.


----------



## Talis (Jul 11, 2012)

Asherah said:


> So, let me get this straight...you're saying that Tobito somehow knew that Madara gave his eyes to Nagato. That seems like a bit of a stretch given there's zero evidence for it. Why would Obito know enough about Madara and his motives to be able to impersonate him?


How is that a bit of stretch?
You clearly saw Tobi telling about Madara's whole past which means he knows a lot of things.
Both Itachi and Tobi showed Madara's past which means at least one of them met Madara at one point which increases the long haired masked man being the real Madara.



> Firstly, I don't have a horse in this race. I don't care who it turns out to be so long as it's convincing and works with the plot. I'm simply trying to use logic to guess who's most likely. I think there's a good chance it could be a new character, too.


I don't think so since the mask is on there for a long time and besides the Tobi= Madara act would have been a waste then + if he was meant to be a clone or whatever he should have been revealed right after the moment Edo Madara showed up.



> Secondly, you're not being rational at all by saying things like 'Kakashi's year obviously refers to Tobito's revealing.' What? Are you Kishimoto? Where's your proof? None of what you say is a given or obvious. Take a step back and explain WHY certain facts have led you to certain assumptions. Don't write a list, write an argument.


I am not Kishi indeed but it's just logic why does that year gets delayed so many times, i even said this when Tobi's mask cracked for 50% at Konans fight ''the further Tobi's revealing moments gets delayed the further Kakashis year gets delayed'' and so did it again indeed lol.
On top of that while Kakashi is fighting against Tobi now Kishi says that the year will certainly happen this time, it should be obvious by now.
And say it self what do you expect of this year?
Another gaiden of Kakashis past, while he is fighting on the war?
Well yeah pretty sure if Tobi turns out to be Obito.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 11, 2012)

Scizor said:


> As fun as this is, I'm done with debating. jacamo will do a better job anyway!



you overestimate me... arguing with Tobito believers is tedious and utterly pointless because they use assumptions as facts  i just ignore them and talk to people that actually make sense... anyway, the point of the repost was to get people to understand that Tobi = Obito is impossible because of those plotholes, especially the last one

any reasonable person would realise this


----------



## Talis (Jul 11, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you overestimate me... arguing with Tobito believers is tedious and utterly pointless because they use assumptions as facts  i just ignore them and talk to people that actually make sense... anyway, the point of the repost was to get people to understand that Tobi = Obito is impossible because of those plotholes, especially the last one
> 
> any reasonable person would realise this


Says the guy supporting a 1 paneled character theory.


----------



## NW (Jul 11, 2012)

Asherah said:


> You can't prove that. Only Kishimoto can confirm it.
> 
> Have a look at jacamo's post for some Obito plotholes. They're more concrete evidence than 'it looks kinda like scars so must be Obito' or whatever is being touted as the main argument these days. There are definitely hints that tie up with the theory (I'm sure Kishi included some on purpose) but they don't go anywhere near to cancelling out all the other conflicting points about how he needs to be much older. Or are you arguing it isn't Obito, mind and body, but a mixture with some other character? Could you PM me the retorts to these points if you don't want to paste them here again?
> 
> ...


I'm a regular here, and I know the answers to these have been posted many times, and I don't feel like answering them _yet again_ right now. Anyways, even Kagami is more relevant than Izuna at this point. At least Kagami has no current backstory so it could be built up. Izuna being final villain? Please. he's not even relevant to Naruto, only Sasuke. The whole jumble makes no sense. That's not to say I support the Kagami theory. I don't. Obito all the way!

Now look at this next image: 

if you look at what we can see of Tobi's face, not only does it look exactly like obito, but there's also something else significant. Tobi's outlook on the world seems to be that of someone who was once a pure-hearted hero but somehow fell into darkness and became evil. If you think about it, this makes the most sense. Just look at Tobi's facial expression. That can NOT be some random-ass fodder like Izuna or Kagami. Elder Son is pretty much out of the question at this point.



jacamo said:


> you overestimate me... arguing with Tobito believers is tedious and utterly pointless because they use assumptions as facts  i just ignore them and talk to people that actually make sense... anyway, the point of the repost was to get people to understand that Tobi = Obito is impossible because of those plotholes, especially the last one
> 
> any reasonable person would realise this


Lol. You're saying WE'RE usuing assumptions? The whole friggin Kagami theory is a giant assumption. At least the Obito theory is based on established facts in the manga and by other valid areas, A.K.A. Kishi's writing style and japanese mythology. it all specifically points to obito.



loool3 said:


> Says the guy supporting a 1 paneled character theory.


Ikr.


----------



## Trinity B (Jul 11, 2012)

This makes sense yet everything is still unclear... Fuck ^.^


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 11, 2012)

Since this seems to be in the defense of Jacamo, i'll just reiterate my answers to him.



Scizor said:


> *1.* That's not true. Sasuke also trained during the timeskip and Sasuke still hasn't mastered Susanoo as far as we know.





Tobitobi said:


> Let's try to stay open minded and fair, here.
> 
> 
> Tobi showed no more than three new jutsu against Minato from the time that Obito supposedly died (4 if you count the extraction of Kurama). There's a plethora of reasons as to why he could've become decent at these three jutsu:
> ...





Scizor said:


> *2.* Nagato changed due to the events that happened around him. And Obito's beliefs are what make such a change unlikely for him.


About as unlikely as the change that Kabuto will have to undergo if he wants to escape Izanami?





Scizor said:


> *3.* He obviously means a relatively long time, which isn't two years.





Tobitobi said:


> "My power, Uchiha Madara's power!"
> 
> "I am merely a shell of my former self"
> 
> Your point seems to base itself on the premise that Tobi was being genuine. But there's nothing indicating that he was more genuine there than he was when he said these two quotes, thus its empirical value is no more than if he were to say the reason that he's Madara is because he said so.






Scizor said:


> *4.* But he couldn't have seen Obito.





Tobitobi said:


> There's nothing to be convinced of. Kurama, at least in my opinion, only recognized the ability to control him. When Sasuke entered into Naruto's subconscious, he thought that Sasuke was someone else until he saw him.
> 
> 
> *Tobi*
> ...






Scizor said:


> *5.* Comparing heights won't provide evidence for Obito's hight in the end. The fact is that Tobi was portrayed as an adult, which Obito wasn't at that time.





Tobitobi said:


> Tobi apparently has Zetsu parts. If Obito's body was of no use, which is plausible, and then given Zetsu parts for the sake of efficiency, then wouldn't adult parts suffice better than a child's?







Scizor said:


> *6.* Because bonds are a theme, too. Even slightly foreshadowing had been enough, but he didn't notice anything, which is weird for a master/student relationship in this manga. And with saying that you kind of acknowledge point 1 having ground.



Concerning chakra:



Tobitobi said:


> 1. Where does it state that Minato can recognize chakra?
> 2. Tobi can mask his chakra.
> 3. Zetsu parts can mimmic the chakra of anyone.
> 4. Minato didn't try to recognize Tobi's chakra.







Scizor said:


> *7.* That's an assumption, while Madara implied he knew who he was.





Tobitobi said:


> There's nothing that states that Madara died before Obito could've became Tobi.
> 
> Obito was apparently as old as Kakashi, which was around 13, when the third Shinobi world war ended. During this time, Yahiko died, and Nagato was probably close to 20 or so. So if Obito was only about 5 to 10 years younger than Nagato, whom Madara clearly indicated that he knew, then it's not a stretch to say that he could've known Obito.
> 
> ...






Scizor said:


> *8.* Which implies Tobi lived during said period.





Tobitobi said:


> Again, acting is just as possible. Madara could've also showed him Hashirama just like Itachi showed Sasuke Madara.





Scizor said:


> *9.* I wouldn't call it an identity crisis. But this still implies he did live during that time.





Tobitobi said:


> Well there's actually evidence to counter that, so there's no reason to assume that he really fought with Hashirama:
> 
> 1. "I am no one"
> 2. continuously wearing a mask, despite the fact that there was no reason to keep lying after he attacked Konan.
> ...






Scizor said:


> *10.* But Nagato is much older than Obito. And the rest are just assumptions (and the tablet only gets one so far, Tobi knows more than Obito could have learned this way).



Concerning Tobi's intel.



Tobitobi said:


> How do you suppose that Itachi knew about Madara since he wasn't from that generation?



ps. please spare us your "assumption" tantrum like you've just learned the word. It's not a stretch to say that Obito could've learned the information from anywhere, because Obito could've, in fact, learned the information from just about anywhere in the naruto universe. What is an assumption is that he couldn't have.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 11, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you overestimate me... arguing with Tobito believers is tedious and utterly pointless because they use assumptions as facts


This is _aggressively_ ironic. 




jacamo said:


> i just ignore them and talk to people that actually make sense... anyway, the point of the repost was to get people to understand that Tobi = Obito is impossible because of those plotholes, especially the last one


You still haven't responded to my last post to you. Shouldn't your "facts" have evidence to support your claim that Madara gave Nagato his Rinnegan...

*looks at 'they use assumptions as facts'*



jacamo said:


> any reasonable person would realise this


Yes... Any reasonable person would agree that Tobi _actually_ fought with Hashirama.


----------



## Asherah (Jul 11, 2012)

loool3 said:


> How is that a bit of stretch?
> You clearly saw Tobi telling about Madara's whole past which means he knows a lot of things.
> Both Itachi and Tobi showed Madara's past which means at least one of them met Madara at one point which increases the long haired masked man being the real Madara.



First, thanks for being much more reasonable in this post.

What I mean is why would Obito of all people be privy to that? What do you think his motives are? If you've already written a post explaining why you think that, just link to me and I'll gladly read it. I read most of this topic but I don't know what specific arguments to attach to individual posters. I don't even know if you're in the mind-and-body Obito camp or not. 



loool3 said:


> I don't think so since the mask is on there for a long time and besides the Tobi= Madara act would have been a waste then + if he was meant to be a clone or whatever he should have been revealed right after the moment Edo Madara showed up.



Yes, the mask being around for so long is likewise what makes me think it's less likely to be a new character. I'm not going to rule it out, though, because of Pein! 

I completely agree it can't be a Madara-clone. Especially as his personality is so radically different I can't imagine them ever being the same person. 



loool3 said:


> I am not Kishi indeed but it's just logic why does that year gets delayed so many times, i even said this when Tobi's mask cracked for 50% at Konans fight ''the further Tobi's revealing moments gets delayed the further Kakashis year gets delayed'' and so did it again indeed lol.
> On top of that while Kakashi is fighting against Tobi now Kishi says that the year will certainly happen this time, it should be obvious by now.
> And say it self what do you expect of this year?
> Another gaiden of Kakashis past, while he is fighting on the war?
> Well yeah pretty sure if Tobi turns out to be Obito.



This is a better explanation as to why you think that, but I still think 'year of Kakashi' is a REALLY vague term and could mean anything by itself. Obito's story isn't the only important thing about Kakashi. We still don't know what happened to Rin or if that tied in with Kakashi's MS developing. If it was such a given and so obvious, Kishi wouldn't be saying it...


----------



## Easley (Jul 11, 2012)

Trying to prove that Tobi is Obito is a waste of time. No amount of "evidence" or similarities can avoid the simple fact that he is dead. Sure, he _might_ have survived the rocks but unless there is proof every other piece of evidence is irrelevant. Only Kishi can answer that. 

I prefer to focus on Tobi's abilities. His space-time (teleport) jutsu is unusual, but isn't even close to the pocket dimension and intangibility for sheer mystery. I'm not sure why people laugh at time travel theories when Tobi's innate powers are based on time, dimensions, and space. Sounds like another guy. Who?... Doctor Who!

No, I don't believe that Tobi is future Sasuke, but he's far more than a crushed Uchiha kid. Obito provides nothing storywise except fanwank for Kakashi. The main villain is doomed to die like a dog. No redemption... Obito fans really want that?


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 11, 2012)

Easley said:


> Trying to prove that Tobi is Obito is a waste of time. No amount of "evidence" or similarities can avoid the simple fact that he is dead. Sure, he _might_ have survived the rocks but unless there is proof every other piece of evidence is irrelevant. Only Kishi can answer that.
> 
> I prefer to focus on Tobi's abilities. His space-time (teleport) jutsu is unusual, but isn't even close to the pocket dimension and intangibility for sheer mystery. I'm not sure why people laugh at time travel theories when Tobi's innate powers are based on time, dimensions, and space. Sounds like another guy. Who?... Doctor Who!
> 
> No, I don't believe that Tobi is future Sasuke, but he's far more than a crushed Uchiha kid. Obito provides nothing storywise except fanwank for Kakashi. The main villain is doomed to die like a dog. No redemption... Obito fans really want that?



Please save the bitter rhetoric for your friends. No one cares who likes the idea, or if it would give you satisfaction. What matters is what the evidence suggests.

I _will_ agree with you that the space/time ideas have received more contempt that they should, because, well it's as you've stated, after all...


----------



## NW (Jul 11, 2012)

Easley said:


> Trying to prove that Tobi is Obito is a waste of time. No amount of "evidence" or similarities can avoid the simple fact that he is dead. Sure, he _might_ have survived the rocks but unless there is proof every other piece of evidence is irrelevant. Only Kishi can answer that.


If you're going to say that, then say it for any Tobi theory, as all the possible Tobi candidates are presumed dead. This is the problem with people against this theory, They're all hypocrites for some reason.



> I prefer to focus on Tobi's abilities. His space-time (teleport) jutsu is unusual, but isn't even close to the pocket dimension and intangibility for sheer mystery. I'm not sure why people laugh at time travel theories when Tobi's innate powers are based on time, dimensions, and space. Sounds like another guy. Who?... Doctor Who!


Space-Time Ninjutsu does not equal time travel.



> No, I don't believe that Tobi is future Sasuke, but he's far more than a crushed Uchiha kid. Obito provides nothing storywise except fanwank for Kakashi. The main villain is doomed to die like a dog. No redemption... Obito fans really want that?


This is where you are very wrong. Obito is more than "Kakashi fanwank". He is the one and only character that would work the best for final villain. Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto back in the day, so therefore an evil Obito would make the best possible final villain for the series. obito is more relevant than alot of characters. He's the ONLY Tobi candidate who's appeared in more than two panels as well and would cause an emotional reaction in someone. if Tobi is Obito, then that is, in my opinion, perfect writing. He fits all the established themes in this manga and fits with Kishi's usage of Japanese mythology. By the way, I've noticed every time someone refutes one of your points, you don't reply. Failing to do so with this one only further proves that you can't come up with a refutal of what I've just said.


----------



## Easley (Jul 11, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> If you're going to say that, then say it for any Tobi theory, as all the possible Tobi candidates are presumed dead. This is the problem with people against this theory, They're all hypocrites for some reason.


You'd have a hard time convincing me of anyone "presumed dead" being Tobi. Not saying they can't be but try to prove they're alive first. Good luck.



> Space-Time Ninjutsu does not equal time travel.


I never said it did, but combined with that weird dimension that could exist outside of time (common in scifi) I'm not going to rule anything out. Kishi is the writer not me. If he wants time travel so be it.



> This is where you are very wrong. Obito is more than "Kakashi fanwank". He is the one and only character that would work the best for final villain. Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto back in the day, so therefore an evil Obito would make the best possible final villain for the series. obito is more relevant than alot of characters. He's the ONLY Tobi candidate who's appeared in more than two panels as well and would cause an emotional reaction in someone. if Tobi is Obito, then that is, in my opinion, perfect writing. He fits all the established themes in this manga and fits with Kishi's usage of Japanese mythology.


Kakashi is the only person likely to recognize Obito at first glance. A reveal of this importance needs a bit more reaction than that, especially if the others arrive to witness it. Does Kakashi need to explain? "Oh, it's my old teammate, Obito!" Who? "Err, he died under some rocks".

Kishi can do better than that.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 11, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Says the guy supporting a 1 paneled character theory.





ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Lol. You're saying WE'RE usuing assumptions? The whole friggin Kagami theory is a giant assumption. At least the Obito theory is based on established facts in the manga and by other valid areas, A.K.A. Kishi's writing style and japanese mythology. it all specifically points to obito.



Why can't you guys debate this more maturely? jacamo also made some remarks which I do not approve of, but you guys are taking that to another level.
And trying to fight jacamo's points by countering his theory of Kagami being Obito doesn't strenghten the Tobito theory.

Regardless of the points made, anything can happen at this point. Kishimoto has the means to make any revelation of his identity work, believable or not. So I would refrain from calling theories 'confirmed' or anything along those lines and just have fun debating this mysterious aspect of the manga instead of all the name calling.

I agree with jacamo, simply because his points have more ground than the points the Tobito theorists have offered. Does this mean I am you guys' 'enemy' too? Isn't that kind of rediculous?



Tobitobi said:


> ps. please spare us your "assumption" tantrum like you've just learned the word. It's not a stretch to say that Obito could've learned the information from anywhere, because Obito could've, in fact, learned the information from just about anywhere in the naruto universe. What is an assumption is that he couldn't have.



Where _exactly_ could he have learned it, then?

PS: 'nothing that proves otherwise' isn't necissarily proof.

And don't get me wrong: I don't fully support any theory (yet). As I see it, anything can happen in regard to Tobi's identity and I wouldn't really care about the outcome, as long as Tobi's backstory makes it believable. I just don't understand why some of you are lifting this discussion to a personal level.


----------



## NW (Jul 11, 2012)

Easley said:


> Kakashi is the only person likely to recognize Obito at first glance. A reveal of this importance needs a bit more reaction than that, especially if the others arrive to witness it. Does Kakashi need to explain? "Oh, it's my old teammate, Obito!" Who? "Err, he died under some rocks".
> 
> Kishi can do better than that.


Obito's the only candidate that anyone there would recognize at ALL. Besides, Naruto doesn't need to recognize Tobi, in fact, it would kind of spoil their battle if Naruto himself had an emotional attachment to him. Therefore, it would be more logical for one of the side main characters to recognize him.



Scizor said:


> Why can't you guys debate this more maturely? jacamo also made some remarks which I do not approve of, but you guys are taking that to another level.
> And trying to fight jacamo's points by countering his theory of Kagami being Obito doesn't strenghten the Tobito theory.
> 
> Regardless of the points made, anything can happen at this point. Kishimoto has the means to make any revelation of his identity work, believable or not. So I would refrain from calling theories 'confirmed' or anything along those lines and just have fun debating this mysterious aspect of the manga instead of all the name calling.
> ...


Normally, I would have tried to debate more maturely, but the irony of his statement was just too much to resist.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 11, 2012)

Scizor said:


> Where _exactly_ could he have learned it, then?
> 
> PS: 'nothing that proves otherwise' isn't necissarily proof.



I'm assuming that you're in a reasonable mood, so please listen closely.

I do not intend to 'prove' any idea on this thread, because that is obviously pointless. I will, however, insist that anyone who says that "this" can't be "this" because of "that" show us evidence of their claim.

Yosemite?


----------



## Silence (Jul 11, 2012)

Sometimes I think that Kishimoto is not sure who he wants Tobi to be. 
Especialy after "I am no one, I don't want to be anyone".


----------



## Scizor (Jul 11, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> I'm assuming that you're in a reasonable mood, so please listen closely.
> 
> I do not intend to 'prove' any idea on this thread, because that is obviously pointless. I will, however, insist that anyone who says that "this" can't be "this" because of "that" show us evidence of their claim.
> 
> Yosemite?



I agree, but what I don't agree with and what I don't get is the condescending tone of your post.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 11, 2012)

Scizor said:


> I agree, but what I don't agree with and what I don't get is the condescending tone of your post.



I apologize for the tone of my post.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 11, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> I apologize for the tone of my post.



You are forgiven, of course. =)

And, though I do not (yet) agree with your side of this debate, I must admit you bring forth interesting points.

I'm still torn on who Tobi is, but I will most likely refrain from posting here and just continue forming my opinion by watching you guys discuss Tobi's identity. You guys know more about this particular subject than I do, anyway.


----------



## Easley (Jul 11, 2012)

How did Tobi get all this 'personal' info about Madara? The easiest answer is that he was told by Madara himself. He met him - maybe even plotted together. He's the origin of the Moon's Eye plan. And if that's the case, Tobi cannot be Obito. The real Madara died soon after awakening the Rinnegan, likely before Obito was even born.

To be honest, Kishi fucked up the backstory with his Madara twist. He thought he was being clever but made it possible to dispute everything - "Tobi lies" is a common excuse.

Ah fuck it, after 7 years I'm just waiting for this shit to end.


----------



## NW (Jul 11, 2012)

Michelle said:


> Sometimes I think that Kishimoto is not sure who he wants Tobi to be.
> Especialy after "I am no one, I don't want to be anyone".


No. Masked man or not, Tobi's still a character, and it makes no sense to change his identity. It's been the same the whole time. Kishimoto has been writing the manga, and been putting Tobi in alot of events, and giving him mysterious abilities. So, if Kishi wanted to change Tobi, he would have to completely re-write that character into Tobi's role and come up with some asspull to explain it. Bottom line: Kishi is better than that. He thinks way too far ahead for him to change Tobi. Tobi's identity has always remained the same.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 11, 2012)

Well at least Marsala's ridiculous Orochimaru theory was put to rest :sweat


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 11, 2012)

Scizor said:


> You are forgiven, of course. =)
> 
> And, though I do not (yet) agree with your side of this debate, I must admit you bring forth interesting points.
> 
> I'm still torn on who Tobi is, but I will most likely refrain from posting here and just continue forming my opinion by watching you guys discuss Tobi's identity. You guys know more about this particular subject than I do, anyway.



Thanks.

I don't really care who people believe that it is. Just as long as no one ridicules any particular belief of mine. People should be able to believe that Tobi is Kagami or Obito or whoever if they want without insubstantial crap from "plot-hole" flame-bait.



Easley said:


> How did Tobi get all this 'personal' info about Madara? The easiest answer is that he was told by Madara himself. He met him - maybe even plotted together. He's the origin of the Moon's Eye plan. And if that's the case, Tobi cannot be Obito. The real Madara died soon after awakening the Rinnegan, likely before Obito was even born.



I can't figure out if you actually mean that Obito was _definitely_ born after Madara died, or if you wanted to avoid the burden of proof with "likely".

If you actually mean that "Tobi cannot be Obito" if he's met with Madara, then please document why, or present it as an opinion.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 11, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I don't really care who people believe that it is. Just as long as no one ridicules any particular belief of mine. People should be able to believe that Tobi is Kagami or Obito or whoever if they want without crap from "plot-hole" flame-bait that is simply insubstantial.



Well, leaving what is and isn't substantial in the middle, I completely agree with you as I feel the same way.



son_michael said:


> Well at least Marsala's ridiculous Orochimaru theory was put to rest :sweat



As far as I've read, his theory got strengthened according to him by the fact Orochimaru can split himself.


----------



## NW (Jul 11, 2012)

Bah, forget this shit. My head feels like it's gonna blow. I still see Obito as the best Tobi theory, but if it's possible, I'd consider Kagami as well. It sure isn't Shisui, Izuna, or the Elder Son. if anyone can give me a reason why Kagami could actually shock people and not be anti-climactic, then go ahead. It really would be nice to have another theory besides Obito. Sorry to anyone if I sounded ignorant with my previous posts.


----------



## NW (Jul 11, 2012)

Scizor said:


> As far as I've read, his theory got strengthened according to him by the fact Orochimaru can split himself.


Can't be Orochimaru for a number of reasons. Tobi cursed Orochimaru in his head. He was thinking, so he therefore had no reason to lie. Orochimaru also referred to him and Tobi as different people in his head and when he said "This war was started by somebody else." Even of Oro split himself, Oro is still Oro. And, if Oro had the sharingan all that time, he wouldn't have gone after Sasuke for it.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 11, 2012)

not to mention the fact that there would now be 2 orochimaru's in the story if tobi was orochimaru as well 


but obitouchiha111 gave the perfect answer. Its impossible for tobi to be Oro


----------



## Scizor (Jul 11, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Can't be Orochimaru for a number of reasons. Tobi cursed Orochimaru in his head. He was thinking, so he therefore had no reason to lie. Orochimaru also referred to him and Tobi as different people in his head and when he said "This war was started by somebody else." Even of Oro split himself, Oro is still Oro. And, if Oro had the sharingan all that time, he wouldn't have gone after Sasuke for it.





son_michael said:


> not to mention the fact that there would now be 2 orochimaru's in the story if tobi was orochimaru as well
> 
> 
> but obitouchiha111 gave the perfect answer. Its impossible for tobi to be Oro



Oh, don't get me wrong: I don't support his theory. That was just the last I have read him saying about it.


----------



## NW (Jul 11, 2012)

Scizor said:


> Oh, don't get me wrong: I don't support his theory. That was just the last I have read him saying about it.


 Yeah, I know. I was just putting that out there for all the people who believe that Tobi is Orochimaru.


----------



## NW (Jul 11, 2012)

Seriously, ONE chapter says that Orochimaru is still alive, and people jump the gun and say he's Tobi. Not everything has to do with goddamn Tobi!


----------



## Scizor (Jul 11, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Yeah, I know. I was just putting that out there for all the people who believe that Tobi is Orochimaru.



Oh, alright then. =)


----------



## Talis (Jul 11, 2012)

Michelle said:


> Sometimes I think that Kishimoto is not sure who he wants Tobi to be.
> Especialy after "I am no one, I don't want to be anyone".


You got a point lol, but that doesn't have to do anything with that line.
Because; Why does he want to be an ''anyone'' if he's already a nobody?
It simply refers him being an extremely INfamous Uchiha/someone with no future/purpose.


----------



## Easley (Jul 11, 2012)

loool3 said:


> You got a point lol, but that doesn't have to do anything with that line.
> Because; Why does he want to be an ''anyone'' if he's already a nobody?
> It simply refers him being an extremely INfamous Uchiha/someone with no future/purpose.


In Tobi's mind, who he is doesn't matter - "I don't want to be anyone"- he only cares about the plan, but he's definitely _someone_. He won't take the mask off voluntarily, so his identity is worth concealing even after his cover was blown. Kishi is waiting for the right moment and then Naruto shatters that damn mask forever. It will be a day long remembered.


----------



## NW (Jul 11, 2012)

I'm starting to consider Kagami Uchiha as sort of likely. I think there's a chance he could be Tobi now. Although, I don't really think it could be anyone besides Obito and Kagami, and even Kagami I'm still skeptical of...


----------



## Shaz (Jul 12, 2012)

I'm going to give the Obito theory a try now, as it may likely be him after the note Kishimoto wrote for the Movie, however it doesn't prove it fact yet though. 

I will try come up with a theory based on positive and negative points for him soon, and also Shisui as his name was mentioned during the notes Kishi wrote.


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jul 12, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm starting to consider Kagami Uchiha as sort of likely. I think there's a chance he could be Tobi now. Although, I don't really think it could be anyone besides Obito and Kagami, and even Kagami I'm still skeptical of...


Kagami might be Obito's dad.


----------



## NW (Jul 12, 2012)

Lews Therin Telamon said:


> Kagami might be Obito's dad.


I guess it's a possibility. Although, if you're saying that Obito's death was his motive, then I don't really feel that is a strong enough reason to want to put everyone on the planet under his complete control. Seriously, shit happens. If Tobi is Kagami, and his motive is _solely_ that, then I'll be dissapointed.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 12, 2012)

Lews Therin Telamon said:


> Kagami might be Obito's dad.



If Kagami is anywhere near Hiruzen's age, then he's about 70 years old. That, in my opinion, would make him about 40 years older than Obito since I believe that Obito would be about 30, currently (same age as Kakashi).

40 years sounds more like 2 generations than one, in my opinion. If Kagami is Obito's relative, I would say that he is probably his grandfather.


----------



## NW (Jul 12, 2012)

Okay, I know there are alot of joke theories about Tobi being the Ramen Guy. People say it's just a joke, they say it's trolling, but IT'S NOT! It's serious shit! I think Tobi really IS The Ramen Guy! No joke! If you read this theory you'll realize that Tobi...actually might be the Ramen Guy!

First, look at this picture of the Ramen Guy:



Now, look at Tobi:



Now if you look, you can see Tobi's hair and his eyes but you can't see the Ramen Guy's hair or eyes! Seeing these would give away that he's Tobi! Nobody else in the ENTIRE Narutoverse has it so you can't see both their hair or their eyes.


Now, here's the whole story. When the Ramen Guy was around 13, he tried to become a shinobi, but he lacked the skill and his arms got cut off by an enemy shinobi. Later on, Madara found the Ramen Guy and gave him Zetsu arms. Madara's evil chakra scared the Ramen Guy away. So, the Ramen Guy decided to give up an being a ninja to sell ramen! But, over the years, the Ramen Guy became insulted. His policy was to give away free ramen all the time, but over time people didn't even give a a shit about him. They just used him for free ramen, never giving him any respect. So, he plotted to take over the world, so he sought out Madara and they made a plan together. The Moon's Eye Plan. The Ramen Guy wants to put everyone under his control and make them all become ramen guys! He wants to make them see how it feels making ramen 24/7!

So, after Madara trained the Ramen Guy(Tobi) and made him stronger, the Ramen Guy(Tobi) began his work undercover. He continued his job as a ramen guy and spied on Naruto. And, here's why Tobi knows so much about the world. Since he's a ramen guy, people stop by at the shop all the time and tell them about their stories while they're there. Hell, Jiraiya's been there, I'm sure alot of famous and renowned and powerful shinobi have been there. So that's how Tobi knows all this stuff, cuz he's the ****ing Ramen Guy!


Tobi said that he would become complete when he sealed the Juubi inside himself. Maybe he means his real arms might come back by being the Juubi jinchuriki!

It's the Ramen Guy's destiny to become the next Rikudou!


Also, the Ramen Guy's real name is Teuchi Ichiraku. Now what's interesting, is that "Teuchi" means "killing someone with one's bare hands." This makes sense, as in this chapter, you see Tobi strangling a guard to death with his bare hands.: 



This theory makes WAAAAAAAY more sense than all those other retard theories out there.



And also, the Ramen Guy wasn't shown during Tobi's attack on the village! Sure you could argue that he just wasn't shown cuz we're supposed to think he's an irrelevant character, but why didn't Kishi at least show him giving ramen to scared villagers? Because he wasn't there to do it. Because he's Tobi!

I rest my case.



So let me know what you think of my theory! I really think I've figured it out!


----------



## Olivia (Jul 12, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> If Kagami is anywhere near Hiruzen's age, then he's about 70 years old. That, in my opinion, would make him about 40 years older than Obito since I believe that Obito would be about 30, currently (same age as Kakashi).
> 
> 40 years sounds more like 2 generations than one, in my opinion. If Kagami is Obito's relative, I would say that he is probably his grandfather.



Asuma is roughly Kakashi's age, and Kakashi flashback age is Obito's age when dyeing, correct? Finally Hiruzen's age is Kagami's age. If we facter all this then we can say that the age gap between Obito and Kagami would be the same from Asuma and Hiruzen. So since Asuma is Hiruzen's son, it wouldn't be too far off to say Obito is Kagami's son.


----------



## Revolution (Jul 12, 2012)

/it could be Kagumi simply because Tobi started out with no eyes.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 12, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Okay, I know there are alot of joke theories about Tobi being the Ramen Guy. People say it's just a joke, they say it's trolling, but IT'S NOT! It's serious shit! I think Tobi really IS The Ramen Guy! No joke! If you read this theory you'll realize that Tobi...actually might be the Ramen Guy!
> 
> First, look at this picture of the Ramen Guy:
> 
> ...



I read the whole thing. LMFAO.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 12, 2012)

Olivia said:


> Asuma is roughly Kakashi's age, and Kakashi flashback age is Obito's age when dyeing, correct? Finally Hiruzen's age is Kagami's age. If we facter all this then we can say that the age gap between Obito and Kagami would be the same from Asuma and Hiruzen. So since Asuma is Hiruzen's son, it wouldn't be too far off to say Obito is Kagami's son.



You certainly got me there.


----------



## alienworkshopguy (Jul 14, 2012)

Well, since Tobi had no idea how to use ET or anything at all about it, and we know Madara does, we can rule out completely that Tobi has NO connection to being any part of Madara.

Was also thinking about the jutsu's that Tobi uses, and realized he only uses Sharingan and Renningan jutsu and NOTHING ELSE. To me this looks like he doesnt know anything other than sharingan and renningan jutsu's. Which would make me think he is the Jyuubi's will/soul/spirit IN an Uchiha body. (Ironic since Oro's goal throughout the whole manga was this, and our FV is infact this) Even though he as the sharingan he DOESNT KNOW how to use it properly to copy jutsu's, meaning he didn't train with the sharingan and his soul and body are originally different parts.

I also believe every time Tobi "changes" his sharingan in the past he briefly took on the personality of the original owner of the sharingan. Could explain the inconsistent behaviors Tobi has displayed.


----------



## CrazyLikeAFox (Jul 14, 2012)

"Timmy?"
"But my name is Tob-"
"IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOUR NAME IS."


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 14, 2012)

alienworkshopguy said:


> Well, since Tobi had no idea how to use ET or anything at all about it, and we know Madara does, we can rule out completely that Tobi has NO connection to being any part of Madara.
> 
> Was also thinking about the jutsu's that Tobi uses, and realized he only uses Sharingan and Renningan jutsu and NOTHING ELSE. To me this looks like he doesnt know anything other than sharingan and renningan jutsu's. Which would make me think he is the Jyuubi's will/soul/spirit IN an Uchiha body. (Ironic since Oro's goal throughout the whole manga was this, and our FV is infact this) Even though he as the sharingan he DOESNT KNOW how to use it properly to copy jutsu's, meaning he didn't train with the sharingan and his soul and body are originally different parts.
> 
> I also believe every time Tobi "changes" his sharingan in the past he briefly took on the personality of the original owner of the sharingan. Could explain the inconsistent behaviors Tobi has displayed.



The juubi was chopped and screwed by the SoSP into the 9 buuji.  I doubt it's will survived all this time hostless for years.


----------



## Easley (Jul 14, 2012)

alienworkshopguy said:


> Well, since Tobi had no idea how to use ET or anything at all about it, and we know Madara does, we can rule out completely that Tobi has NO connection to being any part of Madara.


Isn't that a double negative? I think you meant to say "we can rule out completely that Tobi has a connection to being any part of Madara".

Sorry to nitpick.



> I also believe every time Tobi "changes" his sharingan in the past he briefly took on the personality of the original owner of the sharingan. Could explain the inconsistent behaviors Tobi has displayed.


That means a lot of personalities when you consider his collection. If Tobi changes often he'd almost have no identity of his own, except the body. A bit extreme.

He's only had two distinct personas. Madara, which was a ruse to provoke the alliance, but I'm sure the serious character is real... and goofy Tobi, which is the problem. I just can't see a ruthless individual acting that way. It's why I question that Kishi planned this twist from the start. You can hide your identity without behaving like a clown.


----------



## NW (Jul 14, 2012)

Easley said:


> and goofy Tobi, which is the problem. I just can't see a ruthless individual acting that way. It's why I question that Kishi planned this twist from the start. You can hide your identity without behaving like a clown.


You need to stop with the whole "Kishi makes shit up as he goes along". He doesn't. If you payed enough attention all throughout the manga, you'd see that everything has pretty much all been planned. Kishi eve admitted at the beginning of Part II _before_ Tobi's introduction that he already knew how the manga would end. I seriously don't see how you can consider Kishi that bad a writer. Someone silly turning out to be the main villain is exactly why it's a plot twist. Kishi has never changed Tobi's villain status nor his identity. It's always been set.


----------



## Easley (Jul 14, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You need to stop with the whole "Kishi makes shit up as he goes along". He doesn't. If you payed enough attention all throughout the manga, you'd see that everything has pretty much all been planned. Kishi eve admitted at the beginning of Part II _before_ Tobi's introduction that he already knew how the manga would end. I seriously don't see how you can consider Kishi that bad a writer. Someone silly turning out to be the main villain is exactly why it's a plot twist. Kishi has never changed Tobi's villain status nor his identity. It's always been set.


Okay, give me one good reason why Tobi would act like an idiot? Is that the only way to keep your identity a secret? His real personality is serious, so why the complete change? It's easier to accept if Tobi is not final villain.

I actually liked the Tobi = Madara twist, precisely because the goofball is behind everything. It's still awkward though. That's why some people never took the reveal seriously; "Madara _can't_ be this guy!". No matter how badass Tobi is now, it's hard to forget how comical he was.


----------



## NW (Jul 14, 2012)

Easley said:


> Okay, give me one good reason why Tobi would act like an idiot? Is that the only way to keep your identity a secret? His real personality is serious, so why the complete change? It's easier to accept if Tobi is not final villain.
> 
> I actually liked the Tobi = Madara twist, precisely because the goofball is behind everything. It's still awkward though. That's why some people never took the reveal seriously; "Madara _can't_ be this guy!". No matter how badass Tobi is now, it's hard to forget how comical he was.



1. To hide his identity. Sure, it may have been a little extreme, but that might depend on which character he is.  We can't think that there was no good reason for that as we simply don't know everything. We, as fans, overestimate out knowledge sometimes. 

2. Tobi was and always has been the final villain. If you'd read part 1 you'd see that he was even referenced by Itachi. 

3. Really? I personally find it easy to forget how comical Tobi was. He's just so badass now that you kinda get swept away with his epicness.



Really, Tobi originally being silly was part of a twist when he soon was "revealed" to be Madara. That, in turn made the twist more unbelievable as people wouldn't expect someone so silly to be Uchiha Madara. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



And they were right.


----------



## Golden Circle (Jul 15, 2012)

*[Theory] Tobi is a girl*

Obvious isn't it? It's like the ultimate plot-twist.

Forget her body and her voice. These are easily explainable.

We know that Tobi has a voice-altering jutsu. During the "Tobi is a good boy", her voice was higher pitched and had more sugar-high phrases. In her "Madara" persona she is rather relaxed. And now she is acting like "no one" with a rather bland personality.

We know that Tobi has a body-altering jutsu. She is able to change her hair length and appearance at will. For example, she looked like Madara to Kisame, while on other occasions she doesn't walk or act anything like Madara.

She's like the ultimate actor and ninja, capable of fooling her enemies and hiding in plain sight.


As for "Kishi doesn't know how to write women". Since when were you under the impression that Kishi has been deliberately writing poorly when it comes to them. Deliberately misleading the audience like this fits with Kishi's style. (For example, misleading us about Itachi's allegiance for 400 chapters, and Tobi's identity for 550 chapters.)


So this leaves us with various options:

Tobi is RS' daughter, who inherited the immortality of the Juubi
Tobi is the human form of the Juubi, who was a girl.
Tobi is an Uzumaki, such as the founder of the Uzumaki clan or some other historical figure.
and so on

What are your thoughts on this?

Do bear in mind that I have to go to bed in like an hour, so don't expect any quick replies from me after that.


----------



## Treerone (Jul 15, 2012)

You sure about the hair length part and the body appearance part? 

I could see it happening, would explain why Kishi's been knocking Tobi down lately.


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 15, 2012)

Wow, this is it.

10char.


----------



## DragonOfChoas (Jul 15, 2012)

Now that would be a twist. 
Although the likelihood of this happening...


----------



## Easley (Jul 15, 2012)

Female Tobi would be a shocking twist - a real jaw dropper. Only Future Sasuke comes close, but anything that feels fresh and hasn't been debated to death is fine by me. Most theories make me yawn now, familiarity breeds contempt. I'd love a mind-blowing reveal but Tobi being a girl might be too much for Kishi... and also the target audience.


----------



## iJutsu (Jul 15, 2012)

Didn't we see part of "his" face before like twice already?


----------



## Easley (Jul 15, 2012)

iJutsu said:


> Didn't we see part of "his" face before like twice already?


We did, but was it his real face? I'm thinking Oro when he had the girl's body. His original face was a mask. yeah, still a mindfuck that scene, especially in the anime when he cackles with a female voice!


----------



## Treerone (Jul 15, 2012)

He also has Zetsu body parts which he should be able to transform. (If you're willing to give him that ability from Zetsu)


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 15, 2012)

I don't remember seeing tobi in a kitchen

the voice and the face just don't match, plus I don't think there are many female candidates...


----------



## Yuna (Jul 15, 2012)

Rainbow Dash said:


> We know that Tobi has a voice-altering jutsu. During the "Tobi is a good boy", her voice was higher pitched and had more sugar-high phrases. In her "Madara" persona she is rather relaxed. And now she is acting like "no one" with a rather bland personality.


Who cares about filler anime bullshit?


----------



## NW (Jul 15, 2012)

Rainbow Dash said:


> Obvious isn't it? It's like the ultimate plot-twist.
> 
> Forget her body and her voice. These are easily explainable.
> 
> ...


-__-




Please tell me you're trolling...


----------



## son_michael (Jul 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> -__-
> 
> 
> 
> ...





obviously its a troll  Is Marsala assembling a group?


----------



## Easley (Jul 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Please tell me you're trolling...


I'd assume it's trolling if Kishi didn't already do something similar with Oro. A man in a female body changed his face and voice - even fooled Sarutobi. Maybe the only time that the anime surpassed the manga. You need to hear 'her' demented laughing!

If Kishi _really_ wanted Tobi to be female, he could do it. Writing a villain is easier than relationships, that's where he seems to fail. 

Personally, I give female Tobi a 1% chance.


----------



## NW (Jul 15, 2012)

Easley said:


> I'd assume it's trolling if Kishi didn't already do something similar with Oro. A man in a female body changed his face and voice - even fooled Sarutobi. Maybe the only time that the anime surpassed the manga. You need to hear 'her' demented laughing!
> 
> If Kishi _really_ wanted Tobi to be female, he could do it. Writing a villain is easier than relationships, that's where he seems to fail.
> 
> Personally, I give female Tobi a 1% chance.


That whole body snatching thing was what made Oro unique. Tobi's a whole different ball game. The whole ordeal would be just stupid. And Tobi needs to be recognized by one of the characters fighting him. Unless Tobi is Rin(lol), no one's going to recognize her.


----------



## Easley (Jul 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> That whole body snatching thing was what made Oro unique. Tobi's a whole different ball game. The whole ordeal would be just stupid. And Tobi needs to be recognized by one of the characters fighting him. Unless Tobi is Rin(lol), no one's going to recognize her.


I'm not gonna argue about Tobi any more until the movie is released! Even if his mask stays on it should give us some new material. Right now people are grasping at straws.

I think Sarutobi had a dog named Tobi. He somehow became human and wears a mask to hide his shame. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it!


----------



## NW (Jul 15, 2012)

Easley said:


> I'm not gonna argue about Tobi any more until the movie is released! Even if his mask stays on it should give us some new material. Right now people are grasping at straws.
> 
> I think Sarutobi had a dog named Tobi. He somehow became human and wears a mask to hide his shame. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it!


See? I refuted your points and you cease the debate to keep from having anymore of your points refuted. If you're so confident in them, then whip 'em out. But since you ceased the argument, I can only presume that what you were going to say wasn't anything solid that could really be considered a valid argument.

You're saying that we're grasping at straws. We're not. We are putting together logical arguments to support our theories.

Example: I believe that Tobi is Obito. Many people are highly skeptical of this, so I find and fit together as many concepts and pieces of evidence I can and try to make it make sense and explain how it works. Just like the other theories. 

You need to consider all angles when constructing a theory. Storytelling elements, established themes, appearance, abilities, motive, personality, and logic.


----------



## Easley (Jul 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> See? I refuted your points and you cease the debate to keep from having anymore of your points refuted. If you're so confident in them, then whip 'em out. But since you ceased the argument, I can only presume that what you were going to say wasn't anything solid that could really be considered a valid argument.
> 
> You're saying that we're grasping at straws. We're not. We are putting together logical arguments to support our theories.
> 
> ...


Riiiiight, you're not goading me. I'm immune!

Arguing about Tobi was fun when I joined, but after 5 years I'm exhausted. I estimate that 90% of my posts are in a Tobi related topic. And most of them are several paragraphs at least. I've probably written more words than someone with 10000 posts. Quality over quantity!

I need new material to discuss or I might kill the nearest kitten.

Sarutobi's dog = Tobi. 100% confirmed. I mean, no badass final villain would ever be called Tobi. Hiruzen named him.


----------



## NW (Jul 15, 2012)

Easley said:


> Riiiiight, you're not goading me. I'm immune!
> 
> Arguing about Tobi was fun when I joined, but after 5 years I'm exhausted. I estimate that 90% of my posts are in a Tobi related topic. And most of them are several paragraphs at least. I've probably written more words than someone with 10000 posts. Quality over quantity!
> 
> ...


Oh, sorry, then. Lol. I didn't know you were debating about it that long. I can understand if you get tired of seeing the same arguments over again for years.

Either way, the only Tobi candidates who could potentially have a strong effect on the plot are Obito and Kagami. Too exhausted to explain my reasoning now, but will provide evidence later.


----------



## Killacale85 (Jul 17, 2012)

Dont know if this has been said already but have u guys noticed how madaras susano has two faces and two swords almost like two susanos back 2 back. Chapter 407
Could it have something to do wit what/who tobi is? Maybe madara was a lil screwed up in the head and had like a split personality and tobi is one of those personalities!


----------



## Scizor (Jul 17, 2012)

How would you guys explain Kisame calling Tobi 'Mizukage' after Tobi reveals his identity to him?


----------



## Mateush (Jul 17, 2012)

Scizor said:


> How would you guys explain Kisame calling Tobi 'Mizukage' after Tobi reveals his identity to him?



First Mizukage-sama, then Madara-san. I dunno for sure, but it may be that Kisame met the real Madara. I have a feeling that long haired guy is real Madara. Hard to imagine Kishi's gonna show Tobi's flashback with long hair and then clip his hair to short.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 17, 2012)

Mateush said:


> First Mizukage-sama, then Madara-san. I dunno for sure, but it may be that Kisame met the real Madara. I have a feeling that long haired guy is real Madara. Hard to imagine Kishi's gonna show Tobi's flashback with long hair and then clip his hair to short.



I might be wrong, but that scene wasn't a flashback, right?


----------



## NW (Jul 17, 2012)

Killacale85 said:


> Dont know if this has been said already but have u guys noticed how madaras susano has two faces and two swords almost like two susanos back 2 back. Kakuzu and Ginkaku's death
> Could it have something to do wit what/who tobi is? Maybe madara was a lil screwed up in the head and had like a split personality and tobi is one of those personalities!


That's what I originally thought, but I think it has more to so with since he has Izuna's eyes, both of their Susano'os combined.



Scizor said:


> How would you guys explain Kisame calling Tobi 'Mizukage' after Tobi reveals his identity to him?


That's because Tobi was the one controlling Yagura. Remember how Kisame called him the "Real Fourth Mizukage-sama"? it's because Tobi was controlling Yagura. It was not at all a hint towards his identity.



Mateush said:


> First Mizukage-sama, then Madara-san. I dunno for sure, but it may be that Kisame met the real Madara. I have a feeling that long haired guy is real Madara. Hard to imagine Kishi's gonna show Tobi's flashback with long hair and then clip his hair to short.


Yeah, it does seem a bit pointless, lol. Although, I guess Kishi could explain it away as Tobi grew his hair out to look more like Madara, but when he wanted to conceal his "true" identity in Akatsuki, he cut his hair short again.



Scizor said:


> I might be wrong, but that scene wasn't a flashback, right?


Both scenes where the long haired masked man appeared were flashbacks.


----------



## Killacale85 (Jul 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> That's what I originally thought, but I think it has more to so with since he has Izuna's eyes, both of their Susano'os combined.
> 
> Yea maybe but idk I hadn't seen sauske's susano look that way in tha kabuto fight... Meh might jus be jus be madara unique style susano.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Both scenes where the long haired masked man appeared were flashbacks.



I'm not talking about those, I'm talking about these two pages:
Kakuzu and Ginkaku's death
Kakuzu and Ginkaku's death

Mainly the second one.

That's NOT a flashback.
How would you guys explain that?


----------



## Mateush (Jul 17, 2012)

Scizor said:


> I'm not talking about those, I'm talking about these two pages:
> Kakuzu and Ginkaku's death
> Kakuzu and Ginkaku's death
> 
> ...



What do you yourself believe? I think it was just that Kisame said so because he basically was Mizukage, not literal but he controlled Yagura. Although I remember that before Edo Madara was revealed I did believe that Tobi was some zetsu clone based on Yagura, Madara or other mixtures.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 17, 2012)

Mateush said:


> What do you yourself believe? I think it was just that Kisame said so because he basically was Mizukage, not literal but he controlled Yagura. Although I remember that before Edo Madara was revealed I did believe that Tobi was some zetsu clone based on Yagura, Madara or other mixtures.



But as far as we know now Tobi can't be Madara, so, if one believes the long haired Tobi and the short haired Tobi are different shinobi, then he couldn't have referred to him as Mizukage because of the yagura incident. So there has to be something else going on with Tobi's identity. If Tobi is partially Zetsu and he can take any form, or if he uses his sharingan to make people see someone else, then Tobi might _actually_ be 'no one'.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 17, 2012)

Scizor said:


> But as far as we know now Tobi can't be Madara, so, if one believes the long haired Tobi and the short haired Tobi are different shinobi, then he couldn't have referred to him as Mizukage because of the yagura incident. So there has to be something else going on with Tobi's identity. If Tobi is partially Zetsu and he can take any form, or if he uses his sharingan to make people see someone else, then Tobi might _actually_ be 'no one'.



That might be true. For a long time I believed that Tobi shared exact same memories and feelings as Madara, but now I know thats not the case. He may be zetsu in some form and he might has some parts of Madara as well. 

I think these two chapters shouldn't be forgotten:

Kakuzu and Ginkaku's death
Doesn't make sense if he lied in front of Kabuto.

Kakuzu and Ginkaku's death
That would be stupid for him to say this in front of dying Konan. It is also interesting that he brought up Hashirama and Danzo, now we know that Madara has Hashirama cells. Is Tobi a part of that as well, I mean during that time Madara did Hashirama cells and he also used Tobi?


----------



## Scizor (Jul 17, 2012)

Mateush said:


> That might be true. For a long time I believed that Tobi shared exact same memories and feelings as Madara, but now I know thats not the case. He may be zetsu in some form and he might has some parts of Madara as well.
> 
> I think these two chapters shouldn't be forgotten:
> 
> ...



I agree. The fact we've seen Tobi's arm slip off while he was fighting Minato also strengthens my idea that Zetsu is most likely at least a part of Tobi. But this doesn't fully explain his identity yet. If he can use Zetsu or his sharingan to change his appreance, then his true identity might not even be the big reveal: his past and means may be what're meant to shock us.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 17, 2012)

Scizor said:


> I agree. The fact we've seen Tobi's arm slip off while he was fighting Minato also strengthens my idea that Zetsu is most likely at least a part of Tobi. But this doesn't fully explain his identity yet. If he can use Zetsu or his sharingan to change his appreance, then his true identity might not even be the big reveal: his past and means may be what're meant to shock us.



Yeah either way wouldn't make me disappointed.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 17, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Yeah either way wouldn't make me disappointed.



I feel the same way, now that I think about it.


----------



## NW (Jul 17, 2012)

Now one makes sense anymore except Obito and Kagami.
Izuna = Irrelevant background character used to explain EMS and Madara said he was dead. Plus, we saw him dead in a coffin. -.-

Madara = Edo'd. -.-

Elder Son = Too old and doesn't know the names of the bijuu.

Younger Son = Same reasons as the Elder Son.

Rikudou = Same as his sons.

Fugaku = I believe that recent flashback chapter squished out whatever was left of this theory.

Shisui = Same as Fugaku.

Juubi = Makes no sense anymore. He referred to the Juubi as an "it" in his head, assuring that they are different beings.

Obito and Kagami actually make sense, however. 

Not going to explain Obito again. It gets tiresome, and people won't listen anyway.

Kagami may seem like an irrelevant background character but there are certain things to suggest that he's not. Will probably list them later.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Now one makes sense anymore except Obito and Kagami.
> Izuna = Irrelevant background character used to explain EMS and Madara said he was dead. Plus, we saw him dead in a coffin. -.-
> 
> Madara = Edo'd. -.-
> ...



I respect what you believe, but I'm just not sure what to believe yet.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 18, 2012)

Scizor said:


> How would you guys explain Kisame calling Tobi 'Mizukage' after Tobi reveals his identity to him?


Chapter 507.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 18, 2012)

Alfred Polizzi said:


> Chapter 507.



How exactly does that explain it? (I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like an elaboration)


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 18, 2012)

Did you read just the linked page or the rest of the chapter?


----------



## Scizor (Jul 18, 2012)

Alfred Polizzi said:


> Did you read just the linked page or the rest of the chapter?



The entire chapter.
But aren't long haired Tobi and Tobi considered to be different shinobi by some?

And even if they're the same person, how can Kisame call him 'Mizukage' if Madara was proven to be dead?

I think you mean this: Kisame had never seen Uchiha Madara before, so when Tobi said he was Madara, he believed him. Then, when Tobi showed his face to him in the chapter I linked to, Kisame recognised him as Madara.

But doesn't this prove that Tobi is recognisable as Madara? (Also as everyone in the shinobi world knows what Madara looks like from the statue at the valley of the end)


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 18, 2012)

Kisame calls Tobi the Mizukage both times because he is controlling Sandaime Mizukage, Yagura. Madara likely died when Nagato was still young (calling him 'brat,' giving him the Rinnegan), so all of these instances of Tobi should be the same person, just with different hairstyles and masks.
This is somewhat confirmed by Kisame seeing and recognizing the person controlling Yagura as the person leading Akatsuki.

Does it mean Tobi looks like Madara? Not necessarily. Tobi's appearance might be altered and his excuse could be years, battle injuries, or lengths he's been forced to to survive.

And not everyone would recognize Madara. Even Sasuke, a Konoha shinobi and Uchiha, didn't recognize the name.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 18, 2012)

Alfred Polizzi said:


> Kisame calls Tobi the Mizukage both times because he is controlling Sandaime Mizukage, Yagura. Madara likely died when Nagato was still young (calling him 'brat,' giving him the Rinnegan), so all of these instances of Tobi should be the same person, just with different hairstyles and masks.
> This is somewhat confirmed by Kisame seeing and recognizing the person controlling Yagura as the person leading Akatsuki.
> 
> Does it mean Tobi looks like Madara? Not necessarily. Tobi's appearance might be altered and his excuse could be years, battle injuries, or lengths he's been forced to to survive.
> ...



I see, thanks. I always thought those two had to be the same shinobi, but I guess this doesn't get us closer to finding out Tobi's identity, after all.


----------



## Gonder (Jul 18, 2012)

*Tobi's Identity Thread: Telegrams Edition*

Kohaku no Jōhei


----------



## tnorbo (Jul 18, 2012)

what makes you think that?


----------



## Ginko25 (Jul 18, 2012)

Unfortunately.

Tobi = irrelevant


----------



## Saunion (Jul 18, 2012)

So if that's the case I guess the justification for all that nonsense will be Obito's butthurt at Kakashi letting Rin die.


----------



## Ginko25 (Jul 18, 2012)

Saunion said:


> So if that's the case I guess the justification for all that nonsense will be Obito's butthurt at Kakashi letting Rin die.



I don't think I want even know.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Jul 18, 2012)

And the same old conclusion is jumped to.

Why would Obito bitch to Gai about how he forgot about him? It's a known fact that Gai can't remember faces, a fact that Tobi likely knew via Kisame. 

But I guess people are going to pretend that that statement was directed towards Kakashi either way.


----------



## Synn (Jul 18, 2012)

Not really.


----------



## shyakugaun (Jul 18, 2012)

lol at this point it seems likely, tobi is definitely someone kakashi personally knew


----------



## Good Boy (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi is Kisame from another dimension in which Kakashi has forgotten all their battles.

*CONFIRMED*


----------



## Ginko25 (Jul 18, 2012)

Synn said:


> Not really.



Well, he is someone who knows well Gai and Kakashi's habits and that Gai would remember without his bad memory.

Who else can it be .

RIP Tobi


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Jul 18, 2012)

I will only say this...

If he is, all of the nay-sayers who have given the tobito-supporters crap had better have the nads to apologize for being utter douche-wads over the years.


----------



## lathia (Jul 18, 2012)

More trolling from Kishimoto.


----------



## r e i g n (Jul 18, 2012)

Wonder how many people will pretend they 'knew' it was obito...  high 5 to all believers!


----------



## lo0p (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi =


*Spoiler*: __ 



Tobi


----------



## Easley (Jul 18, 2012)

Gonder said:


> Kohaku no Jōhei


No.

This chapter set up Naruto vs Tobi. Kakashi is taking a back seat.


----------



## Helios (Jul 18, 2012)

*Kakashi and Tobi*

I was not expecting this, seriously. Tobi seems to know a lot about Kakashi. "living a life in regrets" is a statement that only someone very close to him could know.

The man that is Tobi has certainly met Kakashi in the past.

When i thought that the Tobi's identity issue could not get weirder...

Your thoughts?


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 18, 2012)

O...bito ? lol ..


----------



## Deana (Jul 18, 2012)

So, that means when Gai rushed over to challenge Kakashi to a daily duel when they were little kids . . . Obito always had to explain who he was to him?  That had to be annoying as Hell.

That is if . . . Obito = Tobi.


----------



## shyakugaun (Jul 18, 2012)

*Tobi = Rin*

...yes yes, i went there


----------



## Sarry (Jul 18, 2012)

A female actually strong enough to cause a war? In the narutoverse?

I like it


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 18, 2012)




----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi is definitely Kagami Uchiha; it all makes perfect sense.


----------



## Necessary Evil (Jul 18, 2012)

*Tobi is someone that both Kakashi and Gai know!*

Yep, at least that's what I understood from their conversation; at this pannel you can clearly see, that both Kakashi and Gai were surprised by how much he knew regarding Kakashi's past :



Also, when Gai asked Tobi, who he was, he replied with :"You don't remember faces, so what point is there in telling you ?" another possible indication that Tobi is familliar with Gai as well, and especially with his habit to forget names/faces [remember what happened with Kisame].



*Conclusion* : Tobi is someone that both Kakashi and Gai know, so what are your thoughts regarding that, who Tobi might be ?


----------



## Helios (Jul 18, 2012)

Itαchi said:


> O...bito ? lol ..



Nah.

Obito is excluded for the simple reason that he has not been involved with Kakashi's life since their childhood.

Tobi's statement "a life of regrets" is much wider.


----------



## Black☆Star (Jul 18, 2012)

Obito


----------



## Deaf Ninja Reaper (Jul 18, 2012)

I'd run naked which jerking off in the street if it turns out to be Rin. 

Meanwhile, it is impossible twist anyway.


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Jul 18, 2012)

Minato bama


----------



## Gonder (Jul 18, 2012)

Obito


----------



## Virgofenix (Jul 18, 2012)

That would be the most fucked up thing to ever happen.


----------



## Grendel (Jul 18, 2012)

I somehow don't see Kisame and Tobi having a convo about Gai not remembering faces...


----------



## Deaf Ninja Reaper (Jul 18, 2012)

I really want to punch your throat for saying it.

But after this chapter, I think I have to prepare myself for this twist to be confirmed.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Jul 18, 2012)

They have anyone in their past in common?

Kakashi being a lone wolf and Gai forgetting faces are both known facts and could easily be figured out by quick observations. Remember that it's part of Tobi's nature to know more than he should about everyone.


----------



## overlordofnobodies (Jul 18, 2012)

See as both are well now. It will not be that hard to learn about them. Hell Kisame could have told Tobi about the face thing.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Jul 18, 2012)

Obito 

But Kakashi not remembering faces?  strange


----------



## Sarry (Jul 18, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> Obito



Since when did Guy know Obito 


I'd say Tobi was a spy in Konoha. Someone sent from Madara in his older age.


----------



## Virgofenix (Jul 18, 2012)

Also Madara.


----------



## Daryoon (Jul 18, 2012)

Christ, the composition of the panels (Tobi taunts Kakashi > Kakashi reaction > Gai questions > Tobi taunts Gai > Kakashi reaction) ought to be enough to drive the point home.

Kakashi's reaction suggests he knows it's Obito, and has possibly suspected for a while. I'd go as far to say he's suspected since he first noticed Tobi's sharingan. The slight interplay between them after the Danzou battle also hinted that Kakashi knew (the whole "You know that technique won't work on me" thing).

But the naysayers won't believe until the mask comes off. And then they'll bitch and whine and say it's shit and doesn't make any sense. Despite it making sense since Tobi's first appearance. Hence, you know, so many people believing it.

Should be fun to watch


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 18, 2012)

Obito


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 18, 2012)

Necessary Evil said:


> Yep, at least that's what I understood from their conversation; at this pannel you can clearly see, that both Kakashi and Gai were surprised by how much he knew regarding Kakashi's past :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You completely misunderstood that quote. Gai doesn't remember faces particularly well(Kisame for example) and thus is the reason Tobi said there's no reason to tell him who he is. 

The statement had nothing to do with Tobi being someone both Gai and Kakashi both know.


----------



## Deva Path (Jul 18, 2012)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Obito
> 
> But Kakashi not remembering faces?  strange



He said that to Gai, not Kakashi.


----------



## Mr Horrible (Jul 18, 2012)

Kurenai.

Fucking genjutsu master.

Did not go to the kitchen.


----------



## Jad (Jul 18, 2012)

Gai's second eternal rival.


----------



## Easley (Jul 18, 2012)

I'd love Tobi=Rin... even if it makes no sense! That would be a greater shock than Obito (for Kakashi).

Kishi is gonna pull something out of his ass, I'm sure of it.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Jul 18, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> They have anyone in their past in common?
> 
> Kakashi being a lone wolf and Gai forgetting faces are both known facts and could easily be figured out by quick observations. Remember that it's part of Tobi's nature to know more than he should about everyone.



I kind of agree.  Tobi seems to be well informed about pretty much everything.  Not to mention, Kakashi is one of the most famous (present day) ninjas in the world.  It's not a stretch that a villain knows about his enemy's skills, character, past, etc.

I wouldn't look too deeply into this.


----------



## Leuconoe (Jul 18, 2012)

I don't mind if he'll be Obito or something, but I think I'm still a bit skeptic. :/ Just because Kishi might do something cooler.


----------



## conradoserpa (Jul 18, 2012)

If it's not Obito, it has to be, at least, the stone.


----------



## Necessary Evil (Jul 18, 2012)

harurisu said:


> Kakashi is a super famous ninja Worldwide, you don't have to be called Obito to know that he lost his father and best friend and that his life is full of regrets...



How do you explain the fact that he had knowledge over Gai's habit of forgetting names/faces though ?



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> You completely misunderstood that quote. Gai doesn't remember faces particularly well(Kisame for example) and thus is the reason Tobi said there's no reason to tell him who he is.
> 
> The statement had nothing to do with Tobi being someone both Gai and Kakashi both know.



But how Tobi knew that ? Is it worldwide known that Gai forget names ? No.


----------



## Don-kun (Jul 18, 2012)

Helios said:


> I was not expecting this, seriously. Tobi seems to know a lot about Kakashi. "*living a life in regrets*" is a statement that only someone very close to him could know.
> 
> The man that is Tobi has certainly met Kakashi in the past.
> 
> ...



That statement is huge I don't think I will keep ignoring all the Tobito stuff, it seems that Kishi could be trolling his fans again or He wants to connect Tobi with Obito.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 18, 2012)

Necessary Evil said:


> But how Tobi knew that ? Is it worldwide known that Gai forget names ? No.



Tobi's knows pretty much everything there is to know in the ninja world and Kisame was in Akatsuki. It's common sense to think he'd know. It's also pretty clear what Tobi meant and that's that Gai doesn't remember faces particularly well. He flat out says it to Gai.


----------



## AceBizzle (Jul 18, 2012)

Not gonna lie

If Tobi = Obito, probably gonna go ahead and quit the manga


----------



## AoshiKun (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi is someone who both Kakashi and Guy know. That was hinted.


----------



## Necessary Evil (Jul 18, 2012)

This stupid thread merging really fucked up the coversation; not to mention that many posts got deleted. . .


----------



## Divinstrosity (Jul 18, 2012)

Everyone, the masked man fought Minato, remember?

Unless he can control his height, AND hid his power/skills, there is no way the guy that fought Minato is Obito.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 18, 2012)

AoshiKun said:


> Tobi is someone who both Kakashi and Guy know. That was hinted.



*Sigh* no he isn't. Read the actual quote again. Gai asks Tobi who he is and Tobi states to Gai specifically "you don't remember faces, so what point is there in telling you?" That simply means that Gai doesn't remember faces very well and thus there's no reason for Tobi to tell him who he is since Gai wouldn't remember his face.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 18, 2012)

To the obito people I have some questions.

1. Why do you think tobi is obito, and why did he become the way he is.

2. Why do you want him to be tobi, that question does not applie to everyone but still. 

I personally don't want tobi to be someone we know and not obito since I like Obito the way he was in the flashback arc.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 18, 2012)

Maybe Tobi is a combination of all dead Uchiha.


----------



## Kishido (Jul 18, 2012)

Well I was all against it and never believed it, but this chapter makes me curious...


----------



## Don-kun (Jul 18, 2012)

The Gai part I will ignore it Tobi could be inform by Kisame about Gai, that's is not relevant, but the Kakashi part is what matters.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi was just cracking jokes at Gai.


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm gonna laugh if he turns out to be Obito.

My interest in the series has waned so much over the years; I do remember that I originally cared about the Tobito theory because I wanted Kakashi to have more relevance, but I was never much of a Kakashi fan to begin with so when the series stopped gripping me, my interest in the various unknowns of the series went down as well.

If he was revealed to be Obito at this point, when I no longer care about it... it would be funny and sad that it was drawn out so painfully long that my interest was completely lost.


----------



## Trent (Jul 18, 2012)

shyakugaun said:


> ...yes yes, i went there



It'd still be better than Tobito.


----------



## Necessary Evil (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi's _Jikūkan Idō_ [Space-Time Migration] so far has only demonstrated the ability to control Space, what if it also had the ability to control time [as the technique's name suggests] to some extend as well ? This could solve so much in my opinion; regarding the fucked up timeline issuess.


----------



## Viper (Jul 18, 2012)

If it is Obito I win god knows how many bets.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 18, 2012)

Necessary Evil said:


> How do you explain the fact that he had knowledge over Gai's habit of forgetting names/faces though ?



It's possible that he learned it from Kisame.


----------



## Amatérasu’s Son (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm not really surprised. Tobi has shown that he apparently knows almost everything about everyone.



Necessary Evil said:


> This stupid thread merging really fucked up the coversation; not to mention that many posts got deleted. . .


Agreed. 


Gunners said:


> Maybe Tobi is a combination of all dead Uchiha.



You know...that's a fantastic theory. I really like that idea. 

But he is mortal, so him being a cursed apparition doesn't add up. Him being the manifestation of the Curse of Hatred or something similar wouldn't square with him needing Zetsu goop to repair himself or his fear of Madara.


----------



## DoflaMihawk (Jul 18, 2012)

Yeah, that isn't a clue. Guy just can't remember faces.

I guess it would be safe for Tobi to reveal himself to Guy since he would forget anyway.


----------



## ZionHalcyon (Jul 18, 2012)

Divinstrosity said:


> Everyone, the masked man fought Minato, remember?
> 
> Unless he can control his height, AND hid his power/skills, there is no way the guy that fought Minato is Obito.



Need an education on the timeline?


When Obito happened, it was in the midst of the 3rd Ninja war and Minato wasn't even Hokage yet.

That means when Minato and Tobi fought, it was years later - plenty of time for a young Obito to sprout up - the question remains however, how he got such power in such a short amount of time.


----------



## ZionHalcyon (Jul 18, 2012)

Anyway, I hope Tobi is Obito, so a whole bunch of self-important buttwipes rage-quit the manga, and I can laugh my @$$ off at their rage


----------



## ShadowReij (Jul 18, 2012)

The man is pretty much informed on everything. So once again. No. One thing about this manga is that presumably dead men stay dead.


----------



## k2nice (Jul 18, 2012)

Kishi wouldn't put those lines in the manga in this point if it didn't hold any significance to to the plot


----------



## Fruit Monger (Jul 18, 2012)

Gunners said:


> Maybe Tobi is a combination of all dead Uchiha.



Idk if you're trolling, but I'm loving this.

Something like if he absorbed the personalities of all the Sharingans he has.


----------



## Viper (Jul 18, 2012)

DoflaMihawk said:


> Yeah, that isn't a clue. Guy just can't remember faces.
> 
> I guess it would be safe for Tobi to reveal himself to Guy since he would forget anyway.



Well they obviously have to know each other for him to know that about Guy.


----------



## MYJC (Jul 18, 2012)

Daryoon said:


> Christ, the composition of the panels (Tobi taunts Kakashi > Kakashi reaction > Gai questions > Tobi taunts Gai > Kakashi reaction) ought to be enough to drive the point home.
> 
> Kakashi's reaction suggests he knows it's Obito, and has possibly suspected for a while. I'd go as far to say he's suspected since he first noticed Tobi's sharingan. The slight interplay between them after the Danzou battle also hinted that Kakashi knew (the whole "You know that technique won't work on me" thing).
> 
> ...



It really DOESN'T make sense though, for multiple reasons. 

For one, Tobi is nothing like Obito in terms of personality, so it would take hella explaining to justify how he got like this. If it really is true, I REALLY hope he has a better reason than being butthurt that Rin died.


----------



## AoshiKun (Jul 18, 2012)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> *Sigh* no he isn't. Read the actual quote again. Gai asks Tobi who he is and Tobi states to Gai specifically "you don't remember faces, so what point is there in telling you?" That simply means that Gai doesn't remember faces very well and thus there's no reason for Tobi to tell him who he is since Gai wouldn't remember his face.


If Tobi reveal his face Gai won't recognize even knowing who he is, that was the reason for "you don't remember faces".

I can't believe how you guys miss it. It doesn't means Tobi is Obito but certainly is someone who both Gai and Kakashi know. In can be a new charater from their past.


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 18, 2012)

I still don't see why Obito would undergo such a change in personality, but this was a clear indicator that Tobi is someone who personally knows not just Kakashi, but Gai also. Moreover by rights it should be someone Kakashi never saw with his sharingan or he would recognize his chakra. Also it is no known Uchiha.

Based on this chapter there are only a few long shot candidates like Konohamaru's father who come to my mind. Konohamaru's father would fit quite well. He would be a Senju and there's no doubt that Tobi must have a link to either Senju or Uchiha since everybody else gets sidelined. He would have the pedigree worthy of a major villain.
As Hiruzen's son he would have easy access to a lot of information about Rikudou and the like. Konohamaru's hair is similar to Tobi's. He would know about Kakashi and Gai.
Still this is really just shooting in the dark. There's no way to offer conclusive evidence.


----------



## anthonyshort (Jul 18, 2012)

Still kind of hoping for the "Future Sasuke" thing. It could explain his comment fairly well.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

Divinstrosity said:


> Everyone, the masked man fought Minato, remember?
> 
> Unless he can control his height, AND hid his power/skills, there is no way the guy that fought Minato is Obito.



Uh at 14-15 I was 5'10 and Minato is 5'9.  The guy on my high school basketball team was 6'7 at that age.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

The only things Tobito fans can argue is that it is Obito's body being used. Otherwise, I'd love to know the stuff you are inhaling.


----------



## Necessary Evil (Jul 18, 2012)

k2nice said:


> Kishi wouldn't put those lines in the manga in this point if it didn't hold any significance to to the plot



This exactly.

Now people are doing exactly the opposite as to what they used to do for so long. Instead of 'overthinking' the meaning behind these lines they try to simplify it to ridiculous extends; saying that Tobi would hold possesion of such unimportant and silly information simply because 'he knows everything'? Give me a good reason as to why Tobi would go in the trouble to know personal facts regarding both Kakashi and Gai ?

By the way I, by no means support that Tobi is actually Obito.


----------



## MangaR (Jul 18, 2012)

The only guys who could knew Kakashi and Gai close should be present in Konoha.
Obito - modified by Madara and acquaring technic that rival his sensei !
Rin - dat girl
Well, thats about it unless it is realy ramen guy, KakaXGai's long lost child, Sasuke form the future(possible nowadays after Juubi = god of Narutoverse).


----------



## Rolling~Star (Jul 18, 2012)

But Tobi knows about EVERYBODY, even the goddamn RS. 

I don't really see his statements as anything out of the ordinary. 

Also iirc when Tobi took off his mask in front of Sasuke, and when Konan broke it, the defining feature aside from the sharingan were wrinkles, you know, like old man wrinkles. so imo it can't be obito.


----------



## AoshiKun (Jul 18, 2012)

k2nice said:


> Kishi wouldn't put those lines in the manga in this point if it didn't hold any significance to to the plot


People like to miss hints, believe me.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

You'd also have to explain how he got a Kyuubi contract when it was in Kushina and Mito previously. Again, you could say that he is using Obito's body, but then that would exclude Obito's soul.

We've also seen his reminisce on Hashirama and gathered his cells like he knew the man personally.


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 18, 2012)

Look,

how about that..

The guy who fought Minato was indeed Madara, but Obito somehow (insert asspull here) became his partner and Madara saved him from dying because Madara was about to die and needed someone to cotninue his plans. So after Madara died, Obito took the role of Tobi and somehow Madara left part of his soul via zetsu in Obitos body = explaining the wrinkles and power.


----------



## Jake CENA (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi is one of the guys that Kakashi's father rescued during his failed mission.


----------



## Yuna (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi's line to Kakashi is a bit strange. Was Kakashi really constantly spouting off the mouth and living a life of regret when he knew Tobi? Not really. At least not spouting off the mouth. Which is why I still don't think it's Tobi (plus, that would be ridiculous).


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm just gonna say Tobi was cracking a joke like he does all the time.
Tobi can't be Obito. At least not his soul. Otherwise the amount of bullshit chapters he'd have to make to justify that conversion........

Kyuubi conversion was handled bad. I don't even.....


----------



## Jake CENA (Jul 18, 2012)

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 125 (44 members and 81 guests) 

TerminaTHOR, Gonder, Itαchi, Easley, RTpmwe, Turrin, Feh, DemonDurai, Trent, Asherah, son_michael, anthonyshort, Raventhal, Boreas, -JT-, gaseoussnake, Sollet, MYJC, Namikaze, alienworkshopguy, sicmofo, hehey, darkap89, Hodensack, Karman, Brainsucker, omonija, odilbek123, ShadowReij, killerboywood, ZionHalcyon, mhgges, player1, Athruz, falsepod, CopyNinja93


----------



## Mei Lin (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi is Sasuke and Itachi's dad's random brother or another brother.


----------



## sicmofo (Jul 18, 2012)

At this point all clues point towards Tobi being Obito (regardless of whoever he really is)

Another point of interest is Tobi's little speech about heroes. He whines about how he wants a world with no need for them. This can be seen as a direct contrast to Obito's personality who looked up to Minato (who was essentialy the hero of Konoha) and how he acted the part in saving Rin.

I cant understand why some people here think that what Tobi said to Gai and Kakashi doesnt hint at the idea that they know each other from the past. Tobi made two character references in succession stimulating a reaction from the two.

Also note that Tobi telling Gai that "its pointless to tell you since you dont remember faces" alludes to the idea that Gai has seen Tobi's face in the past (because he knew him). There is also somewhat a bitterness in his words when speaking to both of them. Thats what I feel anyway


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

i just realized how much people over analyze shit


----------



## Turrin (Jul 18, 2012)

It's so dam obvious at this point that he's Obito and he was getting all pissed at Kakashi talking big because Kakashi promised to protect Rin and failed.


----------



## Easley (Jul 18, 2012)

ZionHalcyon said:


> Need an education on the timeline?
> 
> 
> When Obito happened, it was in the midst of the 3rd Ninja war and Minato wasn't even Hokage yet.
> ...


huh? it's two years at most, Obito was maybe 16 (if alive) when the masked guy fought Minato. Naruto was born at this time.


----------



## Necessary Evil (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> i just realized how much people over analyze shit



So, you believe that Tobi cracking a joke on Gai/Kakashi is more possible than Tobi giving them a hint regarding his identity ? I beg to differ.


----------



## Viper (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> i just realized how much people over analyze shit



Why I don't post here.


----------



## Ezekial (Jul 18, 2012)

Gaawa-chan said:


> I will only say this...
> 
> If he is, all of the nay-sayers who have given the tobito-supporters crap had better have the nads to apologize for being utter douche-wads over the years.



After this chapter i've already started writing my apology, however if he's Izuna I want one


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

> It's so dam obvious at this point that he's Obito and *he was getting all  pissed at Kakashi talking big because Kakashi promised to protect Rin  and failed*.


That's one huge fucking assumption to make














Tobi may be Obito's body, which is doubtful given the fact that it's made of goo, but it's _definitely not Obito's soul_. Quote me on it now. Madara knows about Tobi. In fact, the hints that they cooperated are too strong for me to say otherwise. In other words, Tobi is older than Obito by quite a large margin. Especially if you consider the fact that a Kyuubi contract could only be made by someone prior to the VOTE fight, since it's been sealed up ever since.

Just think of it like this. If Tobi is fully Obito, then he's 28.
Yeah......not happening.


----------



## sicmofo (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> i just realized how much people over analyze shit



Many members were criticized for being overly analytic when it was theorized that Rinnegan was the final stage of the Sharingan. There are lots of dots laid out throughout the series, they just need connecting (a few dots of course are missing). Analysis does yield results. The manga makes lots of hints towards future events. People just chose to ignore them because this is a shonen manga


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> That's one huge fucking assumption to make
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Look at what I wrote earlier to that.


----------



## Necessary Evil (Jul 18, 2012)

Even if I hate to admit it, all clues direct to Tobi being Obito for the time being. A silly and non-innovative turn of events if you ask me.


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> i just realized how much people over analyze shit


Over analyzing? We're taking blatantly obvious hints Kishi has thrown in the manga and making sense out of them. You clearly don't understand how deep Kishi is with his manga. So, to be honest, it's you that doesn't analyze shit.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

> Look at what I wrote earlier to that.


Extremely doubtful given his personality.

He was cracking jokes at Minato as well. Madara doesn't do that. It seemed like Tobi to me, and he already had the goo body at the time when Minato rasengan'd his arm off.



> Over analyzing? We're taking blatantly obvious hints Kishi has thrown in  the manga and making sense out of them. You clearly don't understand  how deep Kishi is with his manga. So, to be honest, it's you that  doesn't analyze shit


Calm down little boy. I just said it might be his body.
But I'm giving you obvious fucking reasons as to why Tobi having Obito's full soul and body is beyond fucking ridiculous.






> You clearly don't understand how deep Kishi is with his manga



this manga is deep?
k.
derp.


----------



## gabzilla (Jul 18, 2012)

Saunion said:


> So if that's the case I guess the justification for all that nonsense will be Obito's butthurt at Kakashi letting Rin die.



Mh... when did the Kyuubi attack happened? Could Rin have died between Obito's death and that?


----------



## Easley (Jul 18, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> After this chapter i've already started writing my apology, however if he's Izuna I want one


You're jumping the gun. No proof Tobi is Obito yet.

Tobi is facing Naruto next chapter which means we're unlikely to get an "Obito" reveal before the movie.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

What vaste power does Tobi show against Minato?

It's all doujutsu.  How much training do you need to master eye teleport and phasing using doujutsu?  Sasuke got to his final stage of Susanoo in like one day lol.


----------



## DBZGTKOSDH (Jul 18, 2012)

From the last chapter, we learn that Guy has seen Tobi's face in the past, so they know each other, without Guy knowing that. Probably Kakashi knows Tobi from the past too... Why I have this ugly feeling that Tobi will end up being Obito? I don't want him to be Obito!


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Extremely doubtful given his personality.
> 
> He was cracking jokes at Minato as well. Madara doesn't do that. It seemed like Tobi to me, and he already had the goo body at the time when Minato rasengan'd his arm off.
> 
> ...



Madara was about dying being a Man over 80, so he kept himself alive with Zetsu. We don't know too much about Madaras personality he seems to enjoy toying around with people, look at the Kages.


----------



## Summers (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi addresses Kakashi and Gai instead of Ignoring them in favor of Naruto and this is the result?


----------



## Turrin (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Tobi may be Obito's body, which is doubtful given the fact that it's made of goo, but it's _definitely not Obito's soul_. Quote me on it now. Madara knows about Tobi. In fact, the hints that they cooperated are too strong for me to say otherwise. In other words, Tobi is older than Obito by quite a large margin. Especially if you consider the fact that a Kyuubi contract could only be made by someone prior to the VOTE fight, since it's been sealed up ever since.
> 
> Just think of it like this. If Tobi is fully Obito, then he's 28.
> Yeah......not happening.


Tobi being fully obito is incredibly likely at this point. Kishi says he's obito in his notes for the movie. This chapter as well as every other hint at Tobi's identity makes sense if he's obito. Sure Madara knows him why does that effect whether or not he is Obito? 

As for the contract, Naruto didn't have to sign a contract with the Sage Toad to become a Toad summoner all he had to do is have someone else who had the contract Jiraiya give him the scroll to put his hand print on. Madara could have easily passed the contract onto Obito some how or Madara could have had obito absorb a part of him or his chakra, which allowed him to use the contact, the same way Kabuto and Sasuke after absorbing Orochimaru or a part of Orochi were able to use the snake contract.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

> What vaste power does Tobi show against Minato?
> 
> It's all doujutsu.  How much training do you need to master eye teleport  and phasing using doujutsu?  Sasuke got to his final stage of Susanoo  in like one day lol.



Summoning the Kyuubi. Something only one person in recorded history had the power of pulling off.

Space/time without handseals. Intangibility as well as offing ANBU guards and getting past the Konoha barrier undetected.

You serious?



> Madara was about dying being a Man over 80, so he kept himself alive  with Zetsu. We don't know too much about Madaras personality he seems to  enjoy toying around with people, look at the Kages.



If he was dying there is no point in fighting. At that point in time Obito was already dead anyways, so if it really is him, then it was him fighting Minato. And we know Madara had Rinnegan prior to his death, something he didn't show against Minato.


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 18, 2012)

Necessary Evil said:


> Even if I hate to admit it, all clues direct to Tobi being Obito for the time being. A silly and non-innovative turn of events if you ask me.


There are still quite a few large problems about Tobi being Obito. Now it could be that Tobi took Obito's sharingan ?r perhaps even took over Obito's body, but the mind behind the mask just doesn't fit Obito. 


Why would Obito make such a face heel turn? 
How would he know all he did when he attacked Konoha with the Kyuubi and where would he get the power to do what he did in such a short time? 
Why would he talk about waiting for a very long time to strike during Kushina's pregnancy when he waited all of two years? 
Why wouldn't he just return to Konoha? 
Does it really make sense for Kakashi and Minato to just let Obito rot under that stone when they could recover his body easily and give him a proper burial? 
If he was mad about Rin's death why wouldn't he talk to Kakashi directly?

And I'm sure there are quite a number of inconsistencies I did not think of.


----------



## R00t_Decision (Jul 18, 2012)

Necessary Evil said:


> This exactly.
> 
> Now people are doing exactly the opposite as to what they used to do for so long. Instead of 'overthinking' the meaning behind these lines they try to simplify it to ridiculous extends; saying that Tobi would hold possesion of such unimportant and silly information simply because 'he knows everything'? Give me a good reason as to why Tobi would go in the trouble to know personal facts regarding both Kakashi and Gai ?
> 
> By the way I, by no means support that Tobi is actually Obito.



That would explain how Obito acquired the Rinnegan. He probably nearly died and it was acquired. If the 'theories' are true.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

Kishi making Obito Tobi in the movie is more indication to me that he isn't him. Why give one of the most important plot revelations away like that in a fucking non-cannon joke movie?

Thanks for telling me that it just cemented my beliefs.


----------



## Asherah (Jul 18, 2012)

Waaay too many assumptions going on here. But that's kind of a staple of the pro-Obito arguments, really. 

If you calm down and think about this rationally, you'll realise Tobi has made a number of insightful comments about other characters in the manga. This certainly isn't limited to just Kakashi and Gai so these comments don't have special significance. Look at how expertly he manipulated Sasuke, for one thing. He knew that Sasuke was still majorly hung up on Itachi and that he still cherished the memories of his kind older brother. Tobi knows far more about many characters than he should do. This does not, in any way, prove he is Obito.


----------



## Yuna (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> He was cracking jokes at Minato as well. Madara doesn't do that. It seemed like Tobi to me, and he already had the goo body at the time when Minato rasengan'd his arm off.


And since when does Obito crack jokes? People who say it's Obito because goody!Tobi can never point to any tangible similarities between their personalities.


----------



## cha-uzu (Jul 18, 2012)

Obito = Tobi.... I have no idea why there is even a debate anymore. lol I mean who else is it gonna be? A one eyed Uchiha!? Its just silly now at this point.


----------



## falsepod (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi is Obito. Why people would complain about that, I have no idea. Its better than him being some complete random. He can't be Madara. The exposition of it being a new face would grind an already flimsy arc to a halt. It makes sense if its Obito. His body, his Sharingans connection to Kakashi and what he says to Kakashi in this chapter are enough to prove that. The missing gap is who revived him after he was crushed and a friend of mine has come up with a pretty perfect answer. It was Orochimaru. We know he was experimenting with Hashirama's DNA AKA Yamato. It makes sense to me if it was Oro who created Zetsu and we know that Tobi is held together with Zetsu goop. Our theory is that Oro saves this stray dying Uchiha because we all know he has a giant hard-on over the sharingan. Now he can't just go taking the sharingan out of his head, he needs to body for whatever reason (otherwise he'd have just pulled them out of Sasuke when he was young and weak). Eventually Obito gets strong enough and says fuck this shit and leaves with Zetsu to go off and hi-jack the Akatsuki.


----------



## Rabbit and Rose (Jul 18, 2012)

Just accept it guys. Its obito. Kishimoto is getting on my nerves not revealing yet.


----------



## Yuna (Jul 18, 2012)

cha-uzu said:


> Obito = Tobi.... I have no idea why there is even a debate anymore. lol I mean who else is it gonna be? A one eyed Uchiha!? Its just silly now at this point.


Tobi has never been one-eyed.


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 18, 2012)

wtf are you guys talkin about a movie ? Is there an upcomming Naruto movie, where Tobi is revealed as Obito ? And where the hell is that "moviechapter" everyone was talkin about. Some1 please clear me up :0


----------



## Helios (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Kishi making Obito Tobi in the movie is more indication to me that he isn't him. Why give one of the most important plot revelations away like that in a fucking non-cannon joke movie?
> 
> Thanks for telling me that it just cemented my beliefs.



Exactly.Kishimoto will likely be dispelling the rumors ,which are still fascinating some fans it seems, that Tobi is Obito.

There is no way that the revelation of Tobi will be through a movie.

Btw chronologically,when does the story of the movie take place in relation to the plot development of the manga ?


----------



## Easley (Jul 18, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> There are still quite a few large problems about Tobi being Obito. Now it could be that Tobi took Obito's sharingan ?r perhaps even took over Obito's body, but the mind behind the mask just doesn't fit Obito.
> 
> 
> Why would Obito make such a face heel turn?
> ...


Tobi taking Obito's sharingan is the most likely scenario at this point. All the other things you mentioned would require a ton of explanation.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

> Btw chronologically,when does the story of the movie take place in relation to the plot development of the manga ?



Don't know. But that movie is fucked. Hinata is a whore. Sasuke stayed in Konoha and is going after Sakura. Minato is alive. Tobi is Obito.

Messed up shit.


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

Necessary Evil said:


> Even if I hate to admit it, all clues direct to Tobi being Obito for the time being. A silly and non-innovative turn of events if you ask me.


Actually no. Tobi being Obito is the most story completing and sense making option. Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto back in the day, therefore an evil Obito would be the exact opposite of Naruto and be a fitting final villain. People need to further examine this manga to understand how much impact Tobi being Obito holds. It fits perfectly with the theme Kishi uses for his villains and is supported by Japanese mythology, which Kishi greatly bases his manga on.



♠Ace♠ said:


> this manga is deep?
> k.
> derp.


Look. It's not my fault you don't pay enough attention to the manga. There are many established themes and deep meanings in it that Kishi is trying to convey. As well as a certain patter with his villains. I believe Turrin outlined that pattern in a thread of his. Tobi being Obito is the only way he could fit into this pattern, which obviously matters to Kishi.



Turrin said:


> Tobi being fully obito is incredibly likely at this point. Kishi says he's obito in his notes for the movie. This chapter as well as every other hint at Tobi's identity makes sense if he's obito. Sure Madara knows him why does that effect whether or not he is Obito?
> 
> As for the contract, Naruto didn't have to sign a contract with the Sage Toad to become a Toad summoner all he had to do is have someone else who had the contract Jiraiya give him the scroll to put his hand print on. Madara could have easily passed the contract onto Obito some how or Madara could have had obito absorb a part of him or his chakra, which allowed him to use the contact, the same way Kabuto and Sasuke after absorbing Orochimaru or a part of Orochi were able to use the snake contract.


Exactly



♠Ace♠ said:


> Summoning the Kyuubi. Something only one person in recorded history had the power of pulling off.
> 
> Space/time without handseals. Intangibility as well as offing ANBU guards and getting past the Konoha barrier undetected.


Turrin already explained how he could have gotten the contract. Space time without handseals and intangibility are most likely his MS ability.

I'm done arguing. obviously you people won't understand shit until it's in front of your eyes. I'm seriously sorry alot of you guys don't pay enough attention to the manga you're reading. I'll say one more thing: DON'T be surprised when the mask comes off.


----------



## Saunion (Jul 18, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> Mh... when did the Kyuubi attack happened? Could Rin have died between Obito's death and that?



She was nowhere to be seen in Kushina's flashback, so she was probably already dead by the time Kyuubi attacked.

Or Kishimoto just forgot about her since she's a girl.


----------



## Helios (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Don't know. But that movie is fucked. Hinata is a whore. Sasuke stayed in Konoha and is going after Sakura. Minato is alive. Tobi is Obito.
> 
> Messed up shit.



LOL the movie itself is telling us then "dont take me seriously".


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

> Space time without handseals and intangibility are most likely his MS ability.


As I just said, Tobi taking Obito's body or sharingan is completely possible given the fact that he collects sharingans and Zetsu is everywhere.

But it's not his soul.
May as well just wait.




> Look. It's not my fault you don't pay enough attention to the manga.  There are many established themes and deep meanings in it that Kishi is  trying to convey. As well as a certain patter with his villains. I  believe Turrin outlined that pattern in a thread of his. Tobi being  Obito is the only way he could fit into this pattern, which obviously  matters to Kishi.



They aren't deep at all.
Read a good manga. 
I suggest One Piece if you like shounen. 

inb4 storm


----------



## Easley (Jul 18, 2012)

Red Queen said:


> Just accept it guys. Its obito. Kishimoto is getting on my nerves not revealing yet.


There's a saying for this... hmm, what is it? oh yeah!

Don't count your chickens before they hatch!


----------



## fantzipants (Jul 18, 2012)

shyakugaun said:


> ...yes yes, i went there



makes more sense than tobi being obito. the kid died and minato confirmed it.


----------



## Selva (Jul 18, 2012)

I haz a stoopid theory. I haven't slept that much since yesterday and I'm a bit dizzy now so it probably will sound extremely stupid or something but whatev 

So yeah, Tobi's soul was about to be destroyed and he had to find a body to possess as fast as he can cause his soul is weak without a physical body to protect it. Then, he runs into Obito's crushed body and this is the only body available in this area so he takes it, mixes it with some Zetsu goo to fix it and there we have it. Tobi in Obito's body.
Obito is already dead though, his sould already died and all. Maybe after Tobi took his body, he was able to regain some of the body's old memories or something? yeah. 


Itαchi said:


> wtf are you guys talkin about a movie ? Is there an upcomming Naruto movie, where Tobi is revealed as Obito ? And where the hell is that "moviechapter" everyone was talkin about. Some1 please clear me up :0


Yup, the new movie apparently reveals Tobi's character as Obito (or Shisui... I'm not entirely sure )


----------



## Turrin (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Kishi making Obito Tobi in the movie is more indication to me that he isn't him. Why give one of the most important plot revelations away like that in a fucking non-cannon joke movie?
> 
> Thanks for telling me that it just cemented my beliefs.


We don't know if the revelation happens in the movie, this was just something takl figured out from a picture of Kishi's notes for the movie. But it's strong denial at this point to say that Tobi being Obito is not extremely likely.


----------



## cokshura (Jul 18, 2012)

DBZGTKOSDH said:


> From the last chapter, we learn that Guy has seen Tobi's face in the past, so they know each other, without Guy knowing that. Probably Kakashi knows Tobi from the past too... Why I have this ugly feeling that Tobi will end up being Obito? I don't want him to be Obito!



I was starting to get surprised no one made a comment on this yet...unfortunately it would seem so...I also hope not.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

There's a giant problem here though. Unless Madara was alive just 18 years ago, there's no plausible way that Obito managed to meet him. Also, converting someone like Obito into a maniacal killer with the ability to challenge the fourth hokage in 2 fucking years? Yeah okay.

The Madara relationship fucks this theory up for me.



I'll say it again.
Tobi may be Obito's sharingan in Zetsu goo or soemthing.
But it's not his soul.


----------



## ryz (Jul 18, 2012)

*DIFFERENT TRANSLATION*

Kohaku no Jōhei

Basically, we need a proper translation before we start of Tobi=Obito theories


----------



## Saunion (Jul 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Actually no. Tobi being Obito is the most story completing and sense making option. Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto back in the day, therefore an evil Obito would be the exact opposite of Naruto and be a fitting final villain.



Obito wasn't an "exact parallel" of Naruto. There were similarities but there also were striking differences. Just like Kakashi wasn't an "exact parallel" of Sasuke or Rin an "exact parallel" of Sakura.

That's also why Obito's motivations are probably going to sound half assed, because he didn't have nearly the same amount of reasons as Naruto, Sasuke, Gaara or Nagato to become a card carrying villain.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 18, 2012)

its to early to talk about the new chapter (in this thread) you cant even use spoiler tags


----------



## Helios (Jul 18, 2012)

Turrin said:


> We don't know if the revelation happens in the movie, this was just reveled in a picture of Kishi's notes for the movie. But it's strong denial at this point to say that Tobi being Obito is not extremely likely.



What makes you say this after reading the chapter?

Yes Tobi's statement has a personal tone but when you say that someone has lived a life of regret you are obviously not just talking about his childhood (when Obito was close to Kakashi),it would be irrational to do so.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

@ ryz

If that's the right translation then fucking LOL.
I'll wait for the translations to come out in the translation section.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Jul 18, 2012)

Helios said:


> I was not expecting this, seriously. Tobi seems to know a lot about Kakashi. *"living a life in regrets" is a statement that only someone very close to him could know.*
> 
> The man that is Tobi has certainly met Kakashi in the past.
> 
> ...


Not necessarily. Name a shinobi who didn't live a full of regrets. The list of people who have gone burden-free in the Naruto universe is very small.


----------



## ryz (Jul 18, 2012)

^^Exactly! Different translation, totally different aspect


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 18, 2012)

Sorry to doublepost but nobody replied to me, so I may try again.



> "wtf are you guys talkin about a movie ? Is there an upcomming Naruto movie, where Tobi is revealed as Obito ? And where the hell is that "moviechapter" everyone was talkin about. Some1 please clear me up :0"


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

son_michael said:


> its to early to talk about the new chapter (in this thread) you cant even use spoiler tags



all you have to do is spoiler tag it and bold the new chapter.

I agree, the newest chapter is a tease man, I mean Kishi fuckin REALLY?!


----------



## Phemt (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi=Obito is not happening in the movie.

Tobi=Shisui is, in the alternate universe Naruto & Sakura are put in.

It's that simple.


----------



## ryz (Jul 18, 2012)

Itαchi said:


> Sorry to doublepost but nobody replied to me, so I may try again.



That's Naruto Road to Ninja movie, and yes, rumour have been spread that Obito and Shishui make an appearance, as Tobi or something.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

No it was in one of Kishi's movie notes that Tobi = Obito or someting like that.
Ask Turrin I didn't bother learning anything about this movie.


----------



## Necessary Evil (Jul 18, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> There are still quite a few large problems about Tobi being Obito. Now it could be that Tobi took Obito's sharingan ?r perhaps even took over Obito's body, but the mind behind the mask just doesn't fit Obito.



Exactly, I adressed this issue some pages ago myself; I can't understand what possibly triggered Obito's behaviour to take such a drastic change. One could tell that since he witnessed the atrocities of war [nearly losing his comrades, his own life, people dying all over the place], like Nagato did, he felt the urge to do something about it.



bearzerger said:


> How would he know all he did when he attacked Konoha with the Kyuubi and where would he get the power to do what he did in such a short time?
> Why would he talk about waiting for a very long time to strike during Kushina's pregnancy when he waited all of two years?
> Why wouldn't he just return to Konoha?
> Does it really make sense for Kakashi and Minato to just let Obito rot under that stone when they could recover his body easily and give him a proper burial?
> ...




 I believe that the answer to this is pretty simple, Tobi has demonstrated that he is able to control space and time by utilizing his Jikūkan Idō; so far he has only shown that he is able to control space, what if he could control time as well [as the name of the technique suggests] ? This could answer so much in my opinion. And I believe that something among these lines is propably it.
 My guess is that Tobi was propably waiting for his Jikūkan Idō [time control] to recharge ? I know it sounds a little bit of random, but at this point everything is possible, so I'm just throwing my thoughts.
 Regarding his body, my guess is that both Minato and Kakashi just assumed that his body would be almost impossible to recover due to the amount of rocks that propably 'crushed' his body ? 
 He indirectly started a conversation regarding this matter in this chapter.

As I mentioned before, I'm still not convinced that Tobi = Obito [in fact I believe that Tobi is a third person that we propably don't know]. So I just threw some random ideas that crossed my mind.


----------



## Phemt (Jul 18, 2012)

Obito isn't making any appearance!

Kishi just had his name written down in the script, in brackets next to Madara's. That is all.


----------



## Helios (Jul 18, 2012)

FitzChivalry said:


> Not necessarily. Name a shinobi who didn't live a full of regrets. The list of people who have gone burden-free in the Naruto universe is very small.



That would deprive Tobi's statement of any reasoning/purpose/meaning in relation to Kakashi.

I honestly dont think this was the author's intention.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

> Kishi just had his name written down in the script, in brackets next to Madara's. That is all.



Meaning he considered it. If he considered it, that's all I need to know.
Thanks.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 18, 2012)

if Tobi is Obito i only have one thing to say 

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jul 18, 2012)

ryz said:


> "Whatever goes in can never come out, no matter what."
> 
> Basically, we need a proper translation before we start of Tobi=Obito theories


If this is correct, it indicates that Tobi knows Kakashi, but not Gai. Thus, making it even more likely for him to be Obito (or using his body, invading his mind, whatever).


----------



## Helios (Jul 18, 2012)

Honestly now that it is certain that Tobi is not Madara i do not care so much about him.I always viewed Tobi as the way to introduce Madara's return to the story.Since this has been achieved through other means then thats just fine.


----------



## Nuuskis (Jul 18, 2012)

This chapter made me definitely concern that Tobi might actually be Obito after all. It seemed like Tobi really knew about Kakashi's past and held grudge to Kakashi.

I hope I am wrong because it would be so lame though.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

Oh well, regardless of the hints that it may be his body, the amount of inconsistencies and unexplainable traits that Tobi has are far too much for me too ignore. You guys focus on the subtle hints and ignore the huge differences in character. 

In fact, Tobi having Kakashi's other sharingan may make some sense since the space/time and Kamui are somewhat related in a sense. It's the same mechanic. But Tobi being a 28 year old Obito turned evil maniac makes 0 sense to me. And I'm having a hard time believing Tobi is under 30 years of age.


As far as I'm concerned Obito is dead. Tobi has his sharingan? Maybe. His body modified? Possibly.


Also if Ryz's translation is correct, seeing as how that entire chapter seemed more fluently translated, then this is pretty pointless and we just wasted several pages arguing over nothing.


----------



## Skywalker (Jul 18, 2012)

I really would prefer him just being some random guy trolling then Obito.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Jul 18, 2012)

Nachrael said:


> This chapter made me definitely concern that Tobi might actually be Obito after all. It seemed like Tobi really knew about Kakashi's past and held grudge to Kakashi.
> 
> I hope I am wrong because it would be so lame though.



You left me dying under rocks! 

 Kishi...


----------



## Easley (Jul 18, 2012)

Haha, if the latest translation is accurate then lol, in big fat capital letters LOL.

"Is there any point in telling you, who I don't even know?"

Do it Tobi, troll these guys.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> There's a giant problem here though. Unless Madara was alive just 18 years ago, there's no plausible way that Obito managed to meet him.


Madara could have been alive 1 year ago, probably not, but literally nothing confirms Madara time of death. 



> Also, converting someone like Obito into a maniacal killer with the ability to challenge the fourth hokage in 2 fucking years? Yeah okay.


Where are you getting 2 years from? Kakashi is 30 in Part II that means he was 14-15 the night Minato died, however Kakashi graduated the academy at the age of 5 due to his genius, most likely Obito and Rin didn't graduate the academy that young so Kakashi was put on a genin team with shinobi older than him (Obito - Rin). We also know Kakashi became Chuunin at age 6, so Kakashi Gaiden could have happened anywhere from when Kakashi was age 7-14. 

If Kakashi was say 10 when Gaiden happened that would give Madara 4 years to manipulate and train Obito and also make obito 17 when he faced Minato. Really Kishi has room to work with the time-line.

Not that Kishi gives a dam about that time-line in the first place just look at how messed up Itach's time-line is and Kabuti's time-line is. Also Obito turning into Tobi could happen in a matter of days if Kishi wanted it too, look at Nagato the main event that turned the guy into pain happened in 1 day. As for gaining the ability to fight the Fourth, Uchiha can gain huge power boosts in a matter of days, look at how much power the Sasuke who fought Itachi gained by the end of the kages arc.

So yeah all of these are weak arguments on your part.


----------



## ryz (Jul 18, 2012)

Lews Therin Telamon said:


> If this is correct, it indicates that Tobi knows Kakashi, but not Gai. Thus, making it even more likely for him to be Obito (or using his body, invading his mind, whatever).



I think we should wait for awesome people like Takl or Mezz to clarify this for us, before rushing ahead bullheaded with our own personal canon.


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jul 18, 2012)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> You left me dying under rocks!
> 
> Kishi...


More like: "You promised to keep Rin safe, you bastard!!!"


----------



## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jul 18, 2012)

wasn't kakashi still a kid when tobi attacked the konoha? how can he be obito then?


----------



## Necessary Evil (Jul 18, 2012)

Lews Therin Telamon said:


> More like: "You promised to save Rin, you bastard!!!"



If that's his real motive then seriously, any hope for this manga is lost.


----------



## Kenzo (Jul 18, 2012)

Helios said:


> Honestly now that it is certain that Tobi is not Madara i do not care so much about him.I always viewed Tobi as the way to introduce Madara's return to the story.Since this has been achieved through other means then thats just fine.



Change that fucking signature you're creeping me out.


----------



## ryz (Jul 18, 2012)

projectcapsule said:


> wasn't kakashi still a kid when tobi attacked the konoha? how can he be obito then?



Give this man a clap! good point!


----------



## Asherah (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> In fact, Tobi having Kakashi's other sharingan may make some sense since the space/time and Kamui are somewhat related in a sense. It's the same mechanic. But Tobi being a 28 year old Obito turned evil maniac makes 0 sense to me. And I'm having a hard time believing Tobi is under 30 years of age.



Absolutely; where is the motive? One friend dying and being crushed by rocks is NOT enough to merit that kind of 180 in personality and abilities in the Narutoverse. Nagato and Sasuke went through much worse to become what they are/were.


----------



## gabzilla (Jul 18, 2012)

Lol at people thinking Kishimoto is not capable of doing something that makes no sense or is full of plot holes.

I'm not really invested in the Tobito theory, but boy, it'd be fun to see people lose their shit if it's true.


----------



## Selva (Jul 18, 2012)

ryz said:


> Give this man a clap! good point!


Because, how about Tobi already had a body before but lost his body then he had to take Obito's body because that was the only body available at that point in time? So, it's Tobi's soul in Obito's body. Obito is already dead.
Then Tobi was able to get some of the body's (AKA Obito's body) former memories or something like that after gaining control of it ... or something


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

son_michael said:


> its to early to talk about the new chapter (in this thread) you cant even use spoiler tags



new chapter revealed nothing about his identity. just fans again looking too much into lines

for example "u have a good eye kakashi"


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

Okay I have one last thing to say. If anyone can come up with a reasonable explanation to this I'll tip my hat to you. Because the only thnig I'm gonna get is a speculative argument like this entire theory is based on. This makes this theory very implausible.

The Kyuubi last roamed the earth freely before the VOTE. Madara captured it and attacked Hashirama. From that point on, the beginnings of Konoha, the Kyuubi has been in a host. Yet when Tobi summoned the Kyuubi after extracting it from Kushina, _it fully recognized his sharingan_ and made the comment "YOU!" in response.

If Obito is Tobi, _someone explain to me how the Kyuubi recognized his sharingan_ when

1. He was inside a host for 70 years.
2. Obito's sharingan was only seen by Kakashi, Rin and fodder before he died.

I'll be waiting.
Thanks.


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jul 18, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> Lol at people thinking Kishimoto is not capable of doing something that makes no sense or is full of plot holes.
> 
> I'm not really invested in the Tobito theory, but boy, it'd be fun to see people lose their shit if it's true.


Yeah, it's funny. After the "Gold and Silver Brothers" being eaten by Kurama and suviving by chewing on his stomach (and somehow getting out!) bullshit, you'd think people would have learned.


----------



## ryz (Jul 18, 2012)

Selva said:


> Because, how about Tobi already had a body before but lost his body then he had to take Obito's body because that was the only body available at that point in time? So, it's Tobi's soul in Obito's body. Obito is already dead.
> Then Tobi was able to get some of the body's (AKA Obito's body) former memories or something like tat after gaining control of it ... or something



....

I hate you 

Also, repost, for new pager: Alternative translate of "that" page:"Whatever goes in can never come out, no matter what."


----------



## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Okay I have one last thing to say. If anyone can come up with a reasonable explanation to this I'll tip my hat to you. Because the only thnig I'm gonna get is a speculative argument like this entire theory is based on. This makes this theory very implausible.
> 
> The Kyuubi last roamed the earth freely before the VOTE. Madara captured it and attacked Hashirama. From that point on, the beginnings of Konoha, the Kyuubi has been in a host. Yet when Tobi summoned the Kyuubi after extracting it from Kushina, _it fully recognized his sharingan_ and made the comment "YOU!" in response.
> 
> ...



or how he suddenly obtained an adult's body


----------



## Saunion (Jul 18, 2012)

Lews Therin Telamon said:


> Yeah, it's funny. After the "Gold and Silver Brothers" being eaten by Kurama and suviving by chewing on his stomach (and somehow getting out!) bullshit, you'd think people would have learned.



I think most people know Kishimoto is capable of doing something retarded like that, it's just that they don't WANT him to do it.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

Here's the scan.


----------



## AVC (Jul 18, 2012)

> Hey I just got a crazy theory on who Tobi might be. What if Tobi is... a time-traveler Obito!
> 
> So it begins with the day that Obito supposed died with the rockfalls, but instead of dying he activated his Magenkyo Sharingan for the first time and teleported out of there before the rocks crushed down on him. Like it was his first time doing it, he didn't know what he was doing, but because of using all or almost all his chakra on that move, instead of just teleporting away, he somehow teleported into the past, in the time of Konoha founding. By the time he arrived, he was almost dying, not just because half of his body was crushed, but also because he was almost out of chakra for that move. It was also because of that time-traveling space-time migration that he have that kind of spiral pattern carved on his face that matches the first mask we saw him using in the manga.
> 
> ...



This is my theory on who Tobi is from a while ago. Is the only theory that makes sense to me from a while now and would fix the time-line of events


----------



## fantzipants (Jul 18, 2012)

Divinstrosity said:


> Everyone, the masked man fought Minato, remember?
> 
> Unless he can control his height, AND hid his power/skills, there is no way the guy that fought Minato is Obito.



Remember me sensei?

Plus he told konans retarted behind that he (madara) truly won against hash by looking into the future.


----------



## Selva (Jul 18, 2012)

argh maybe I'm missing something, but is it really that hard to grasp? Like maybe Tobi has the ability to change his bodies whenever he wants to or when his host body dies or something? Maybe that's exactly what happened in the past. He's a known Uchiha (Madara's brother? I dunno), so that's why Kurama recognized him, then his body died afterwards and his soul had to go and look for another host/body (the one he fought Minato with), his body died again then he found Obito's body (the only available body at that time maybe), infused it with Zetsu's goo and there you have it.
It's not that entirely retarded when you think about it 


ryz said:


> ....
> 
> I hate you


----------



## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jul 18, 2012)

AVC said:


> This is my theory on who Tobi is from a while ago. Is the only theory that makes sense to me from a while now and would fix the time-line of events



yeah brainwash a guy who is naruto's spiritual predecessor


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm calling Kishi's bluff. He's hinting it's Obito, but I get the feeling he's doing that on purpose so we miss the bigger (hidden) picture. Kinda how like Kishi was making Tobi seem to be Izuna a couple of weeks or months ago with Madara's debut. Then Madara said Izuna died. It's gonna be the same with Obito... at least I think so.

on a side note 

*Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread:* 106 (31 members and 75 guests)

god damn guys


----------



## gabzilla (Jul 18, 2012)

Lews Therin Telamon said:


> Yeah, it's funny. After the "Gold and Silver Brothers" being eaten by Kurama and suviving by chewing on his stomach (and somehow getting out!) bullshit, you'd think people would have learned.



The moment Kishimoto introduced the ten tails was the moment I realized anything was possible.



Saunion said:


> I think most people know Kishimoto is capable of doing something retarded like that, it's just that they don't WANT him to do it.



Well, I didn't want him to turn the Kyuubi into a pet, yet here we are


----------



## Nuuskis (Jul 18, 2012)

Hmm, I think I'm going to stick with my own theory on who Tobi really is than him being Obito. It makes so much less sense him being Obito.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Okay I have one last thing to say. If anyone can come up with a reasonable explanation to this I'll tip my hat to you. Because the only thnig I'm gonna get is a speculative argument like this entire theory is based on. This makes this theory very implausible.
> 
> The Kyuubi last roamed the earth freely before the VOTE. Madara captured it and attacked Hashirama. From that point on, the beginnings of Konoha, the Kyuubi has been in a host. Yet when Tobi summoned the Kyuubi after extracting it from Kushina, _it fully recognized his sharingan_ and made the comment "YOU!" in response.
> 
> ...


He was in Kushina right. Obito was her husband's apprentice right. I think you can put 2 and 2 together. Ether that or he thought Tobi was Madara just like everyone else. 

There are other possible explanations than those, but the above are by far the simplest and incredibly plausible.


----------



## cokshura (Jul 18, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Izanagi was "real" person, while in Naruto ir only showed as technique. While Jiraiya or Tsunade or Orochimaru were "real" in myths. Yes he do mix these, sometimes with new ideas or not.
> 
> I didn't read the heavy details, only a few summaries. You admitted that it could makes sense, therefore my theory works.
> 
> Maybe I should instead read much more about these myths, then give hard proof.



Orochimaru is based on the Orochi beast. A multiheaded serpent kind ob beast that was evil and loved sake. It was killed by Susano.


----------



## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jul 18, 2012)

Selva said:


> argh maybe I'm missing something, but is it really that hard to grasp? Like maybe Tobi has the ability to change his bodies whenever he wants to or when his host body dies or something? Maybe that's exactly what happened in the past. He's a known Uchiha (Madara's brother? I dunno), so that's why Kurama recognized him, then his body died afterwards and his soul had to go and look for *another host/body (the one he fought Minato with), his body died again then he found Obito's body (the only available body at that time maybe)*, infused it with Zetsu's goo and there you have it.
> It's not that entirely retarded when you think about it



obito died earlier than minato


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> for example "u have a good eye kakashi"



Oh man that was hilarious 

But that could be anyone lol Danzou had 1 sharingan, Shisui had 1 sharingan plus no ones found his body, Obito had a sharingan but it was crushed under Uchiha's greatest enemy, Izuna had both gave his to Madara and for some weird ass reason ppl think Madara or Izuna would actually let him go out on the battle field blind (no not even without eyeballs!)

Kishi is pulling our legs guys...


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

> He was in Kushina right. Obito was her husband's apprentice right. I think you can put 2 and 2 together.
> 
> There are other possible explanations than that one, but the above one is by far the simplest.


You didn't read my post did you? Number 2 was pretty important.

Even Minato didn't see Obito's sharingan. *Only 2 people* made it out of that cave that actually did. He literally had it for 10 minute before kicking the bucket. 

How does the Kyuubi recognize something he's never seen before? Kushina's definitely not seen Obito's sharingan. Especially not the right eye one, since that's the only one that Obito would have had left and the one Tobi used against Kyuubi.

so yeah. That didn't answer jack shit.
Try again.



> Ether that or he thought Tobi was Madara just like everyone else.



HMMMMMMMM I WONDER WHY


----------



## Swagger Wagon (Jul 18, 2012)

ZionHalcyon said:


> Need an education on the timeline?
> 
> 
> When Obito happened, it was in the midst of the 3rd Ninja war and Minato wasn't even Hokage yet.
> ...





Turrin said:


> Where are you getting 2 years from? Kakashi is 30 in Part II that means he was 14-15 the night Minato died, however Kakashi graduated the academy at the age of 5 due to his genius, most likely Obito and Rin didn't graduate the academy that young so Kakashi was put on a genin team with shinobi older than him (Obito - Rin). We also know Kakashi became Chuunin at age 6, so Kakashi Gaiden could have happened anywhere from when Kakashi was age 7-14.
> 
> If Kakashi was say 10 when Gaiden happened that would give Madara 4 years to manipulate and train Obito and also make obito 17 when he faced Minato. Really Kishi has room to work with the time-line.



Obito died at the age of thirteen, according to the databook, during the 3rd war. It was stated in chapter 400 that Itachi was 4 during that time. Itachi must have been 5 years old during the Kyuubi attack; he is 5 years older than Sasuke who was an infant at the time.

Obito would have been 14 at the time he faced Minato.


----------



## fantzipants (Jul 18, 2012)

Selva said:


> argh maybe I'm missing something, but is it really that hard to grasp? Like maybe Tobi has the ability to change his bodies whenever he wants to or when his host body dies or something? Maybe that's exactly what happened in the past. He's a known Uchiha (Madara's brother? I dunno), so that's why Kurama recognized him, then his body died afterwards and his soul had to go and look for another host/body (the one he fought Minato with), his body died again then he found Obito's body (the only available body at that time maybe), infused it with Zetsu's goo and there you have it.
> It's not that entirely retarded when you think about it


Didn't minato confirm to kakashi that he later went and retrieved the body or am I mistaken?If he can do that then he can take anyones dead body and resurrected (which he did not know what to do).


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

We've already seen the Kyuubi react to Madara's chakra. I'm fairly sure that if he recognized Tobi as Madara, it has more merit than Minato's speculation or the Gokage's speculation.

The Kyuubi has an actual _physical reaction_ to Madara's chakra.


----------



## Lelouch71 (Jul 18, 2012)

I guess Kishi truly do read all the fanfics on NF. I guess I'm slowly joining the Tobi=Obito club after this chapter. He seems to know both Kakashi and Gai decently well.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

Uh people MS is designed to control Kurama.  He didn't summon Kurama.  He took control with his eye and Minato canceled his control.   And Tobi stated Danzo had Senju + Sharingan to control Naruto(Kurama).  Who else has Senju + Sharingan uh Tobi.

As I said Tobi uses almost 99% doujutsu.  Phasing, Teleport, eye control as we see Kurama, then Rinnegan.  We know Tobi read the tablet.  Why is it hard to grasp he may know how to use his Sharigan to control Kurama.

The height issues is non issue.  Look at Itachi at 11.  Minato is only 5'9 going by the Data Book.  I was taller than that at 14-15 Obito/Kakashi age at the attack time.

Honestly Obito has more reason to be evil than Sasuke.  Sasuke is pissed at the whole village for what 3 people suggested his brother to do, not to mention his father and clan were tratiors.  Obito is trying to take peace by the horns and force it on the world.  He's lost his body, is love, mentally scared by war.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

> He didn't summon Kurama



what?
come again?


----------



## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jul 18, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Uh people MS is designed to control Kurama.  He didn't summon Kurama.  He took control with his eye and Minato canceled his control.   And Tobi stated Danzo had Senju + Sharingan to control Naruto(Kurama).  Who else has Senju + Sharingan uh Tobi.
> 
> As I said Tobi uses almost 99% doujutsu.  Phasing, Teleport, eye control as we see Kurama, then Rinnegan.  We know Tobi read the tablet.  Why is it hard to grasp he may know how to use his Sharigan to control Kurama.
> 
> ...



except that we saw kakashi as a kid when tobi attacked konoha


----------



## momma bravo (Jul 18, 2012)

dude, i'm not trying to be sexist, i'm just keeping it real. in this manga, kishimoto has had a tendency to make the [few] important female characters have huge tits. yes, a lack of exaggerated breasts are the main reason i disagree with this. 

edit: a lack of boobs OR a datass. tobi has none.


----------



## BatoKusanagi (Jul 18, 2012)

shyakugaun said:


> ...yes yes, i went there


Nope. Tobi= 


Damn it Kakashi how could forget about her?


----------



## Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Has someone offered an explanation as to how Tobi would have been able to age himself so dramatically as to be a fully grown adult by the time of the Kyubi Invasion if he really is Obito? That's really the only thing that keeps me from believing Tobi is Obito.


----------



## Pyro (Jul 18, 2012)

I've always been a Tobito supporter. I really hope that some day if it gets revealed we were right, we get a few apologies from some very rude posters.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

He summons Kyuubi like he's done it before.
Kyuubi recognizes him.
He tells Konan on her death bed that he's Madara.
He has Senju cells and has a creepy obsession with Hashirama.
He knew and cooperated with Madara after VOTE.

hmmmmmm i wonder who he happens to be?


*Also, how old was Tobi when Yahiko made Akatsuki?
Because Tobi encouraged him to make that organization. And he was alive to give Nagato the Rinnegan.* Oh wait, Obito transcends age


----------



## AlphaRooster (Jul 18, 2012)

anybody remember this page?  chapter 400

Not sure if Mizukage was a translation error, and Kisame knew who Tobi was. It explains at least to some degree why tobi would have an interest in gai.


----------



## Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi is Tsunade's daddy


----------



## Revolution (Jul 18, 2012)

Comment on the myth itself:  DAE think it was crewl for the man to banish the woman because he didnt like the way she looked?


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

Yes Tobi showed his face to Kisame in Kisame's flashback. Then he showed it again later on and he recognized him as the same person.

again, Obito being present at that time is not possible. He was fully an adult in Kisame's flashback.





You guys seriously ignoring these problems?
We literally just piled a load of shit onto this theory.


----------



## Asherah (Jul 18, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Honestly Obito has more reason to be evil than Sasuke.  Sasuke is pissed at the whole village for what 3 people suggested his brother to do, not to mention his father and clan were tratiors.  Obito is trying to take peace by the horns and force it on the world.  He's lost his body, is love, mentally scared by war.



Terribly thought-out paragraph. 

Obito certainly does not have more reason to be 'evil'. And the last couple of chapters were spent spelling out for the reader that Sasuke's motivations are more complex than pure blood lusted revenge. And slaughtering the clan wasn't 'suggested' to Itachi; he was given an ultimatum by Danzo. Even after all this happened, the Third and his advisers did nothing to remove Danzo from power and therefore did not actively condemn his actions. As the government of Konoha, they're guilty of serious wrongdoing. Also, please demonstrate how Obito's 'mentally scarred by war' more so than your average ninja. 

Also, when you say 'take peace by the horns' you make it sound like you don't even think he's evil to begin with. So, which is it? If he's evil, then you must believe he didn't die after the rocks crushed him. If this is so, why did he not go back to his friends and family in Konoha before Rin even died?


----------



## JamesGab (Jul 18, 2012)

Hi guys, been lurking since 2008 and i never thought this would be the issue that would finally make me participate in the boards, guess the excitement about the effing identity of Tobi has finally gotten onto me. 

Anyways, just to share my opinion and theory (which is probably theorized by countless people anyways), For me i think Tobi can only be - 

1.) A clone of Madara made by Orochimaru - Remember in the Shippuden episode where he got smacked by Minato's Rasengan and how his arm decomposed afterwards? Usually that decomposition typically happens to clones and zombies, etc.

2.) Sasuke - He goes to meet the "People", gets enlightened and returns back in time to become another Jeebus of the Narutoverse.

3.) The ever so popular Obito.

4.) Kishimoto himself.


----------



## eHav (Jul 18, 2012)

just what they needed, a spark of hope for the obito = tobi fans... oh well. gonna be an interesting week


----------



## RaginTrollin (Jul 18, 2012)

*Obito Tobi*

This recent chapter kinda points toward Obito being Tobi. This wouldn't make sense cause Obito would be to young to attack 4th hokage. So what if their are multiple Tobis. The original Tobi found Obito and chose him as successor. 
So the Tobi that attacked 4th is dead.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

nope. nothing was hinted. and a alternative translation says nothing of that sort


----------



## Kenzo (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi is...


----------



## jgalt7 (Jul 18, 2012)

FFS...tobi seem to know a lot about EVERYONE!  it's not obito.  so here's obito, in his early teens, dying, crushed by a rock, and a few years later, somehow alive and fighting minato on even terms, knowing how to overcome a high level barrier and overpower anbus right and left and summon the kyuubi and control it......and as minato put it, madara level.........with an adult body

god damn people....


----------



## Selva (Jul 18, 2012)

projectcapsule said:


> obito died earlier than minato


ugh there goes my stupid theory >__> my memory is all jumbled right now >_<


fantzipants said:


> Didn't minato confirm to kakashi that he later went and retrieved the body or am I mistaken?If he can do that then he can take anyones dead body and resurrected (which he did not know what to do).


I can't really remember that part very well  I'm gonna have to reread those chapters again to make sure.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> He summons Kyuubi like he's done it before.
> Kyuubi recognizes him.
> He tells Konan on her death bed that he's Madara.
> He has Senju cells and has a creepy obsession with Hashirama.
> ...



Tobi's a liar and some of that stuff was Madara's doing.  He was shown to be liar by Kabuto and turns right around and says he fought Hashirama even though he never did because the real Madara did and wanks on about it.  We don't know when Madara died.  He could have been in his 80-90's but crippled from his fight to move around much but let Tobi take over as his front. 

The sharingan is designed to control Kyuubi.  We don't know the nature of that control. It's obvious from Kurama's eye that it was sharingan control not a normal summon.  Just how Pain's summons are Rinnegan summons with Rinnegans.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

jgalt7 said:


> FFS...tobi seem to know a lot about EVERYONE!  it's not obito.  so here's obito, in his early teens, dying, crushed by a rock, and a few years later, somehow alive and fighting minato on even terms, knowing how to overcome a high level barrier and overpower anbus right and left and summon the kyuubi and control it......and as minato put it, madara level.........with an adult body
> 
> god damn people....



That means that Sasuke before the 2 year time skip could have beaten Oro, Deidra, etc because people never progress at young ages?  Not to mention that Obito can phase and teleport.  No those eye powers take years to train and no way he could get past anyone with teleportation...


----------



## Turrin (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> You didn't read my post did you? Number 2 was pretty important.
> 
> Even Minato didn't see Obito's sharingan. *Only 2 people* made it out of that cave that actually did. He literally had it for 10 minute before kicking the bucket.
> 
> ...


Kyuubi has shown the ability to senses chakra or at least the nature of it. He sensed Sasuke having sinister chakra like Madara and in this chapter he sensed the jar contained his chakra. 

Given the fact that it's insanely likely that obito interacted with Kushina before, he could have sensed the familiar nature of Obito's chakra in Tobi. Or alternatively given he already has been shown to sense chakra nature which is similar to Madara's, he could have sensed similar chakra nature from Tobi as Madara's and believed it to be Madara, which would make sense if Obito was Madara's apprentice or if Obito took in a part of Madara's chakra/DNA. 

Both are perfectly rational explanations.


----------



## DUNGEON (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi is fuckin "no one".
Again kishi trolled us today.obd


----------



## principito (Jul 18, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> And the same old conclusion is jumped to.
> 
> *Why would Obito bitch to Gai about how he forgot about him? It's a known fact that Gai can't remember faces, a fact that Tobi likely knew via Kisame. *
> 
> But I guess people are going to pretend that that statement was directed towards Kakashi either way.



Well Gai and Kakashi go WAY BACK, it wouldnt be surprising that Gai and Obito knew each other right? i mean they are same generation.... Gai know obito the way Probably Sasuke knows Lee... not friends but they know each other

thats not very difficult logic brother


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

Lol at the pissed off Tobito haters.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Kyuubi has shown the ability to senses chakra or at least the nature of it. He sensed Sasuke having sinister chakra like Madara and in this chapter he sensed the jar contained his chakra.
> 
> Given the fact that it's insanely likely that obito interacted with Kushina before, he could have sensed the familiar nature of Obito's chakra in Tobi. Or alternatively given he already has been shown to sense chakra nature which is similar to Madara's, he could have sensed similar chakra nature from Tobi as Madara's and believed it to be Madara, which would make sense if Obito was Madara's apprentice or if Obito took in a part of Madara's chakra/DNA.
> 
> Both are perfectly rational explanations.



Kurama can only sense evil not chakra.  Naruto is granted this power in his transfomations. Thus he says Sasuke's chakra is as sinister as Madara's and cursed clan stuff.


----------



## Awesome (Jul 18, 2012)

Obito does have a reason to cast infinite Tsukiyomi. The war likely scarred him to a point where he wanted to completely get rid of war. 

Not only that, but the name, his eye techniques, his statement to Kakashi, his looks, and his appearance in the timeline all fit as well.

inb4 Obito wasn't old enough when he fought Minato. Kakashi and Gai were Minato's height at the time. In a single damn year Naruto went from fighting Jounins to being one of the strongest people in the world. It's not strange to say Obito can get to Kage level in a few years with his sharingan.


----------



## Madai (Jul 18, 2012)

Back when Kuruma was inside Kushina, and the masked man attacked sharingan'd him, he said "YOU!!" but that does not signify *recognition*.

At this point, I think it's unlikely that Kurama recognizes Tobi.  Let's review.

chapter 400
it's abundantly clear Kurama is listening in on Son Goku and Naruto's chat

chapter 400
chapter 400
it's also clear Naruto has shown serious interest in who Tobi is.

The idea that Kurama at this point would be withholding information that would be of tactical importance is a little far-fetched.

Based on these panels, I will go out on a limb and say Kurama's not making a big whoopsie here, or worried about Kakashi not being able to fight his old friend.  He honestly doesn't know who Tobi is.


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Jul 18, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> Mh... when did the Kyuubi attack happened? Could Rin have died between Obito's death and that?



Did you see Rin during the Kyuubi attack when it showed pretty much every character alive at the time?  No, Rin died during the war.  Obito blamed the whole ninja system.  He also had a special hatred for the Uchiha, so they were probably involved.  They probably did the "mission comes before comrades" thing.


----------



## Tryke (Jul 18, 2012)

*My theory on why Tobi can't be Obito*

For the record, when Tobi was first introduced I very much thought he could be Obito.  Kishi tends to hint towards him being Obito, including this most recent chapter talking to Kakashi and Gai.  With all the Zetsu talk, it is possible that it is Obito's BODY, but certainly not his MIND/SPIRIT.

Ok, so here is my main argument: Tobi fought a very close fight with Minato.

Taken into context, Obito was Minato's student and considered to be a lackluster Uchiha.  When Tobi fought with Minato, he already had the air of someone as old or older than Minato.  He also had exceptional space/time jutsus and serious skills and experience that let him fight on par with Minato and control the Kyuubi.  Keep in mind that Kakashi and Gai were still young at the time they fought.

Kakashi Gaiden shows us how he awakens his sharingan and eventually saves Kakashi and Rin, but gets crushed by the rocks.  Unless Obito was faking it the whole time in this arc, he could not have *believably* become strong enough in the short time gap to be Tobi.

Conclusion: Tobi is not Obito, at least not in mind/spirit.


----------



## gjoerulv (Jul 18, 2012)

chapter 400

Assuming Tobi = Obito and "he"= Tobi/Obito, this page shows that Madara died very recently. Why? Because in order for Madara to recognise Obito as "him", Obito would have to develop enough for Madara to recognise him as an individual with a certain personality, a goal and the powers to achieve it.
I see Madara as a guy with very high standards. Obito would have to survive, change his personality and gain these skills. I reckon Obito would use AT LEAST a year before to gain enough "power" before someone like Madara would recognise him. but that is pushing it.

Kabuto also answered Madara as Madara knew who "he" is. Assuming "he" = Tobi.

Of course, these things could be explained by various means, but we can only speculate. (Rivived with Rinnegan (by who?) because Madara wanted his sharingan?)

This idea may be crushed if long hair Tobi and short hair Tobi are 2 different persons. I personally don't believe he is though.

Oh, and about this "Kishi makes up thing as he goes" thing... No. Kishi knows who Tobi is. He has always known. The reminder of the story was planned before the last arc of part 1. It may not be obvious on a week to week reading, but at a distance you see the threads. Besides, it's not that complicated.


----------



## daschysta (Jul 18, 2012)

It's pretty obvious that whoever Tobi is knows Gai and Kakashi personally. Kishi isn't subtle, he doesn't really do smokescreens.


----------



## Kishido (Jul 18, 2012)

Even if this chapter was strange and makes me really believe that Tobi could be Obito... There are too many holes in it


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 18, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Did you see Rin during the Kyuubi attack when it showed pretty much every character alive at the time?  No, Rin died during the war.  Obito blamed the whole ninja system.  He also had a special hatred for the Uchiha, so they were probably involved.  They probably did the "mission comes before comrades" thing.



Obito having that sort of motivation makes no sense. Assuming he survived he could have returned to Konoha and that would have given him a chance to save Rin. So the one he would blame the most would be himself and no one else.


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Jul 18, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> Obito having that sort of motivation makes no sense. Assuming he survived he could have returned to Konoha and that would have given him a chance to save Rin. So the one he would blame the most would be himself and no one else.


You ignore the fact that Rin could have died while Obito was recuperating in a cave with Zetsu.


----------



## daschysta (Jul 18, 2012)

It's abundantly clear that it is Obito at this point. Hell Obito could have been corrupted by whoever saved him, ala Nagato. He did hate the way that the ninja system worked, and Tobi is essentially trying to overthrow the entire thing too with his moons eye plan.

Tobi=Obito

It will become a kakashi/tobi or kakashi/gai vs. tobi fight as soon as the juubi is released, and the mask gets torn off in the process.


----------



## Mako (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi is simply:




Kakashi and Gai always visit the Ramen shop once in a while.


----------



## daschysta (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi's words to Kakashi about a life of regret were personal as well, and echoed comments about Obito talking too much that Kakashi said in Gaiden. Kakashi failed to save Rin, could be what Tobi is getting at.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 18, 2012)

To be honest I thought Tobi not being a person but more a title passed on.

From Madara to ??? to Obito.

Though I suppose with Kisame recognizing him as Mizukage that is off as well.
And we know the Bloody Mist began long before Naruto was born thus before Obito's death.


----------



## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jul 18, 2012)

Madai said:


> Back when Kuruma was inside Kushina, and the masked man attacked sharingan'd him, he said "YOU!!" but that does not signify *recognition*.



or kurama simply recognized the same sharingan controlling tech used by madara


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 18, 2012)

Here's a rather radical alternative I haven't seen mentioned yet. 

What if Tobi literally isn't anyone anymore? That no matter who he started out as originally he has changed over time in such a manner that he no longer truly is anyone.

My idea is this: 
What if much like Kabuto/Oro collected corpses for their Edo Tensei Tobi collected the memories and final regrets of dead shinobi? We've seen other people implant their final thoughts into others so why shouldn't the reverse be possible as well, somehow extracting pieces of the psyche of dead shinobi.

He started out as a good guy who was disgusted by how shinobi turned into traitors and unfeeling weapons for the "good" of the villages and how they were quickly expended in the wars. 
So instead of just ignoring those casualties he took it upon himself to collect pieces of their psyche containing their memories and their final regrets and assimilating them. It may have started with Madara which would explain why he knows so much about Madara and his plans and why he even pretended to be Madara for so long. But over the years he took pieces of so many shinobi that his original identity was lost and he became an amalgamation of shinobi who had given up hope and just thought to end it all.

Among those shinobi whose identity he assimilated would naturally also be Kisame and perhaps Obito. And from them he took those comments about Kakashi and Gai.

I'm well aware this theory is really out there, but it would kinda fit, wouldn't it? It would explain Tobi's ambitions, why he has no "identity", why he refers to himself as the darkness of the shinobi and why he would want an end of dreams and hopes.



Pretty Good Satan said:


> You ignore the fact that Rin could have died while Obito was recuperating in a cave with Zetsu.



And just why would Obito sit around in a cave with Zetsu instead of returning to Konoha? Zetsu could have brought him there easily and Konoha did have Tsunade, the greatest living medic nin.


----------



## Lelouch71 (Jul 18, 2012)

daschysta said:


> It's pretty obvious that whoever Tobi is knows Gai and Kakashi personally. Kishi isn't subtle, he doesn't really do smokescreens.


This


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi being Madara doesn't even make sense from a story telling perspective as there would be no need to keep the mask on that long and build up a whole new character only for it to be Madara, I think if it were Madara he would've been revealed after the Pain Arc.

To me everything leads up to Tobi being Obito

1. Tobi is Obito spelled backwards

2. The two villains of this arc are Kabuto and Tobi, and we saw with Danzo ad Nagato who were similar villains both were dogmatic and thought they could seek peace with deception and control

 In this arc we're dealing with two villains that don't know themselves , have no identity of their own and stole the powers of their masters Madara/Kabuto, as Orochimaru gave Kabuto new life, Madara gave Tobi new life.

3. Kishi has specifically left two things secret up to this point

   A. The cause of Rin's Death

   B. How Kakashi got MS

 There's a reason Kishi left these a secret especially if he knows that Tobi will be coming back into the fold later on in the story

4. Kakashi is at the battle scene, out of all the people why did Kishi deem it neccessary for Kakashi to be involved in this battle if not for him being a critical part within this fight, from a story telling perspective there has to be a reason why Kakashi is here.

5. Tobi vs Minato , coincides with the the other  master vs student fights we've seen in the manga from other villains

Orochimaru vs Hiruzen

Nagato vs Jiriyia

It makes for a better story if Obito has a deeper connection with Naruto/Minato

6. The Zetsu Goo body, implies that his body has been modified , and it would make sense for Obito to have those body modifications from being crushed by rocks , he also has a deep connection with Zetsu as its the only person he really trusts.

7. The age doesn't mean shit, because Tobi wasn't the one to give Nagato the Rinnegan, it was probably Madara/Orochimaru who gave Nagato the Rinnegan, and they just created Tobi down the line to fool Nagato and make sure he resurrected Madara so he can complete his plan, so timeline makes sense

1. Madara gets Hashirama Cells at the VOTE

2. Madara recruits Oochimaru 

3. Orochimaru destroys Uzumaki Village

4. Madara activates Rinnegan

5. Madara dies

6. Orochimaru implants Rinnegan eyes in the young Uzamaki child

7. Orochimaru learns Edo Tensei and Ressurects Madara

8. Madara manipulates Nagato to form Atakutski 

9. Madara wants his old body back as the Edo body is nothing compared to his old one

10. Orochimaru creates Zetsu but the Edo body  rejects it

11. Orochimaru learns of the secrets of Rikudo Sennin/Juubi

12. Madara finds young Uchiha Body in Obito

13. Orochimaru injects Obito body with zetsu goo and Madara somehow puts him in a genjutsu that makes him believe he is Madara and gives him the name Tobi

14. Tobi the fights Minato and loses

15. Orochimaru releases the Edo Madara

16. Tobi assumes Madara identity and takes over Atakuski , Orochimaru double crosses Tobi and leaves the group.


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Jul 18, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> And just why would Obito sit around in a cave with Zetsu instead of returning to Konoha?



He was probably unconscious. 



bearzerger said:


> Zetsu could have brought him there easily and Konoha did have Tsunade, the greatest living medic nin.



Why would Zetsu do that?  Zetsu's an enemy of Konoha.  Zetsu, and whoever was with him, wanted to brainwash Obito against Konoha.

Fuck, for all we know, the bad guys were responsible for Rin's death, then blamed it on Konoha so that Obito would go even more nuts...


----------



## Nagato Sennin (Jul 18, 2012)

So if Kyuubi supposedly knows who Tobi is, why doesn't he tell Naruto?


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 18, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> He was probably unconscious.
> 
> Why would Zetsu do that?  Zetsu's an enemy of Konoha.  Zetsu, and whoever was with him, wanted to brainwash Obito against Konoha.
> 
> Fuck, for all we know, the bad guys were responsible for Rin's death, then blamed it on Konoha so that Obito would go even more nuts...



That would reduce Tobi to a minor pawn though. And at that level of brainwashing I don't think we can still call him Obito. He's a completely different person who really has nothing in common with the old Obito anymore. There'd be no difference between what happened to Tobi and someone whose body had gotten taken over.



Nagato Sennin said:


> So if Kyuubi supposedly knows who Tobi is, why doesn't he tell Naruto?



Kurama doesn't know who Tobi is. He may have encountered Tobi before he attacked Konoha with it, but chances are Tobi kept his identity hidden even back then.


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Jul 18, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> That would reduce Tobi to a minor pawn though. And at that level of brainwashing I don't think we can still call him Obito.



He'd still be Obito, just like Sasuke was still Sasuke after meeting Tobi.  Just really fucked up.

Although, I suppose Sasuke didn't go around impersonating a dead guy or running around saying, "I am No One.  I don't want to be anyone. I just want to complete the Moon's Eye plan."  And "Nothing stops the plan."


----------



## Turrin (Jul 18, 2012)

Well the movie chapter is out and the world seems pretty much the normal Naruto world and we know Kishi notes for the movie he called Tobi Obito, so It seems even more likely now that Obito = Tobi.


----------



## Daryoon (Jul 18, 2012)

S'funny how people are all "why would Obito turn evil?" "why would he abandon Konoha?" etc. Because this kind of mind-screw has never happened before. Never.

Tobi in a cave with Sasuke. "I MUST KILL MY BROTHER!" turns to "I MUST AVENGE MY BROTHER AND DESTROY KONOHA!" overnight.

Yeah, Obito was the Naruto of his group. Naruto himself has acknowledged how he could have easily been the one in Sasuke's position. Nagato used to be a good kid too. People change.


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 18, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> He'd still be Obito, just like Sasuke was still Sasuke after meeting Tobi.  Just really fucked up.
> 
> Although, I suppose Sasuke didn't go around impersonating a dead guy or running around saying, "I am No One.  I don't want to be anyone. I just want to complete the Moon's Eye plan."  And "Nothing stops the plan."



Exactly. Obito went from a Naruto-ish Uchiha to the complete opposite. From a kid who really knew nothing to a diabolical mastermind who knows everything, from a kid not good enough to be left out alone to someone who Minato himself couldn't take on and all that within two years and without upgrading his sharingan to MS, not even talking about EMS.


----------



## Evil (Jul 18, 2012)

Even if Tobi is not Obito, he's someone that Gai and Kakashi know or knew.

A lot of people are missing the significance of that scene. Tobi talks about Kakashi as if he's familiar with him, he states that Kakashi always opens his mouth easily and this is why his life is full of regrets.

He says always, but Tobi has only run into Kakashi a handful of times on top of that this prompts Gai to ask who he is when before that didn't matter. Something about Tobi's tone and the way he talked to Kakashi made them feel uneasy about Tobi's identity. On top of that, Tobi says "You don't remember faces, so there is no point in telling you", he's pretty much implying that Gai has seen his face before but it doesn't matter because he wouldn't remember it if he told him anyway.

Is Tobi really Obito? I think signs point to yes. 

At the very least, this Chapter implies that Tobi is someone both Kakashi and Gai knew.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jul 18, 2012)

There's also a theme in many works of fiction

The weak always become strong

The laughing stock always gets the last laugh


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Well the movie chapter is out and the world seems pretty much the normal Naruto world and we know Kishi notes for the movie he called Tobi Obito, so It seems even more likely now that Obito = Tobi.



don't look too much into it. Even if it was made by Kishi, it's a teaser at best. Nothing in it could plausibly happen. Hinata a go go, Sasuke a flirt, Ino the shy girl... ha


----------



## DoflaMihawk (Jul 18, 2012)

Maybe Kakashi, but I doubt Tobi would know Guy personally.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 18, 2012)

*Shit, Obito . . .*

I admit, when I read what Tobi said, I had flashbacks of when Obito told Kakashi to protect Rin.


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 18, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Well the movie chapter is out and the world seems pretty much the normal Naruto world and we know Kishi notes for the movie he called Tobi Obito, so It seems even more likely now that Obito = Tobi.



The movie means jacksquat. Tobi being Obito in it has just as much impact on the manga as Rainbow Rasengan, Tiger Mizuki, Teahouse shinobi and all that other nonsense we've seen in other movies.


----------



## Easley (Jul 18, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Well the movie chapter is out and the world seems pretty much the normal Naruto world and we know Kishi notes for the movie he called Tobi Obito, so It seems even more likely now that Obito = Tobi.


Didn't he call Madara Obito? That's what the notes suggested. I''m not jumping to conclusions.


----------



## Easley (Jul 18, 2012)

Evil said:


> Even if Tobi is not Obito, he's someone that Gai and Kakashi know or knew.


That's a surprising statement. I thought you'd stand by Tobito to the death.


----------



## Tryke (Jul 18, 2012)

I should add that it would take a real ass-pull to make Obito stronger than Minato in that short period.  However, you're right in that Kishi sometimes has plotholes anyway.


----------



## HakuGaara (Jul 18, 2012)

Well, the only thing we found out is that he knows both Kakashi and Gai and they more than likely know him or know of him.


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 18, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> Well, the only thing we found out is that he knows *of* both Kakashi and Gai



Fixed that for you

And just to be clear, the Tobito theory rests on obito being a time traveler?


----------



## HakuGaara (Jul 18, 2012)

DoflaMihawk said:


> Maybe Kakashi, but I doubt Tobi would know Guy personally.



How would you know since we don't even know who Tobi is? Saying "You can never remember faces so telling you is pointless" is a direct implication that Tobi and Gai have met face to face in the past.


----------



## gjoerulv (Jul 18, 2012)

This chapter hinted towards Tobi = Obito, but if that is the case A LOT must be explained. The "long hair/past Tobi and short hair/present Tobi = 2 different persons" theory kinda must be true if Tobi = Obito.

Why would The 9tails recognise Obito?
Why would Obito state he had waited a long time to get the 9tails if he was only, like, 15 years old.
Why the personality change? How does he live?

Tobi also claimed that he gave Nagato the rinnegan. Nagato had it as a child, meaning Obito would an infant at best. And this is short hair/present Tobi making a claim.

also this:



gjoerulv said:


> Link removed
> 
> Assuming Tobi = Obito and "he"= Tobi/Obito, this page shows that Madara died very recently. Why? Because in order for Madara to recognise Obito as "him", Obito would have to develop enough for Madara to recognise him as an individual with a certain personality, a goal and the powers to achieve it.
> I see Madara as a guy with very high standards. Obito would have to survive, change his personality and gain these skills. I reckon Obito would use AT LEAST a year before to gain enough "power" before someone like Madara would recognise him. but that is pushing it.
> ...





lucid1 said:


> And just to be clear, the Tobito theory rests on obito being a time traveler?



Time travels... Hmmm, why not, it would explain it at least.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2012)

This is getting interesting, especially because in chapter 241 it says "obito knows the sadness Kakashi is burdened with" on the cover


My theory on iis that Obito's body was recovered by Oro or some other person and experimented on. 
-Note both kakashi and Tobi have the ability to control space/time.(only other person who can do this is Minato/2nd hokage(hype))
-A couple years after the 3rd Ninja war the village is attacked, by tobi.(enough time for Obito's body to have been restored/trained)
-Everytime Kakashi and Tobi have been shown together those two(more specifically kakashi) have been shown to be very tense.(1st meeting in the snow/Kakashi with kiba, naruto, etc./Kakashi fighting now.) Kishi always shows those two looking directly into each other's eyes.
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
-As we can see Kishi is clearly stressing something between these two characters.

Another thing I find interesting is Tobi similarities to Yamato. We know yamato was a huge part of the war, he powered the zetsu army and shared DNa with the 1st, well isn't it possible that orochimaru tried the same thing with uchiha dna? It was stated that orochimaru had about 50 test babies and yamato was the only one they recovered alive. I think oro having connections here would be great it would tie him into the story even deeper, and make sense.


----------



## Rouge Angle (Jul 18, 2012)

No.


----------



## gabzilla (Jul 18, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Did you see Rin during the Kyuubi attack when it showed pretty much every character alive at the time?  No, Rin died during the war.  Obito blamed the whole ninja system.  He also had a special hatred for the Uchiha, so they were probably involved.  They probably did the "mission comes before comrades" thing.



Probably. But Rin being the only reason he went bad...


Oh wait, this is Kishimoto we are talking about


----------



## posternojutsu (Jul 18, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> Probably. But Rin being the only reason he went bad...
> 
> 
> Oh wait, this is *Kishimoto* we are talking about



This is all that needed to be said about this entire topic.


----------



## HakuGaara (Jul 18, 2012)

lucid1 said:


> Fixed that for you



Ummm, no. Tobi said something about Kakashi that only a person who *knows* Kakashi would know. Same thing with what he said to Gai. What he said directly implies that they have met face to face.



lucid1 said:


> And just to be clear, the Tobito theory rests on obito being a time traveler?



I can't tell if this is directed at me or to the forums in general but I personally don't believe in Tobito since it doesn't make any sense. Tobi and Obito have complete opposite personalities.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

> Why would The 9tails recognise Obito?



He thought he was Madara.



> Why would Obito state he had waited a long time to get the 9tails if he was only, like, 15 years old.



2 years is long depending on perspective.  Not to mention he was impersonating Madara.



> Why the personality change?



Rin, war, manipulation.



> How does he live?



Zetsu seems to play a role.


----------



## On and On (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi ending up Obito is a new fucking low for Kishimoto


----------



## Turrin (Jul 18, 2012)

When will this forum stop denying the obvious. I'm not going to sit here and say Tobi 100% Obito, but people should be willing to admit this is by far the most likely possibility for Tobi's identity. Why? Well let's look at some things here:

1. Tobi's characteristics make sense in context of Obito's. Obito is the closest match for Tobi's hair. Tobi initially wore an orange mask the same color as Obito's googles. Tobi's body is made partially out of Zetsu goop, the only character who have zetsu goop in their body is Zetsu or someone who need to use to goop to repair their body, who has that motivation Obito. The supposed "wrinkles" of Tobi appear only on the side of obito's face that was crushed by a rock, scars can easily fit in place of wrinkles. Tobi's name use the same hiragana as Tobi's just less the extra O hiragana. Tobi's personality when fucking around is the same as Obito's.

2. Tobi's Sharingan possesses similar if not the same powers as Obito's sharingan. He even goes as far to say that Obito's sharingan's powers won't work on him.

3. The eye he sacrifices for Izanagi is on the same side as the eye which Obito lost, while he preserves the eye that Obito did not give to Kakashi. 

4. Obito fits as Tobi thematically to see why, read this thread of mine: 

5. Tobi clearly indicates in this chapter that Gai has seen his face before and that he has intimate knowledge of Kakashi, who fits this best, Obito

6. In a picture of Kishimoto's own notes for the movie he states Tobi is Obito and Takl states this was in reference to Tobi being Obito outside of Tsukuyomi universe, which as we saw in this recent special chapter for the movie it is the same or very similar to the manga universe

7. Etc... I could go on.

Peoples counter arguments to Obito = Tobi are also ridiculous when taken into context of what we have previously seen in the manga:

1. People say the time line doesn't make sense, but when will people get that Kishi doesn't give two shits about the time-line. We knew he didn't care all that much when the Itachi time-line made no sense and we knew he didn't give a shit when the Kabuto time-line made no sense.

2. People say Obito couldn't become strong enough to face Minato, and my answer to this is are you guys even reading the same manga as I am? You know the one where in a few months Naruto went from having a tough time getting bells from Kakashi with Sakura's help to fucking the 5 edo Jin's day up in BM. 

3. People say Obito's mind-set couldn't change that quickly, again are you guys reading the same manga as that I am? Where Sasuke's mind-set changes daily and Nagato change into Pain in the course of one tragic day. 

4. Than there is little shit like Kurama saying "You!" and Tobi having a contract with Kurama which can be easily explained by any number of mystical means, in a manga where we have seen DNA/Chakra transplant and all kinds of crazy shit. If Kishi is willing to have Itachi be able to implant one of the strongest sharingan's in the world into a normal crow your really going to sit here and tell me Madara couldn't have given obito some of his chakra or a contract with Kurama, bitch please.

Than let's look at the other theories and how they are all FAR FAR less likely than Obito

1. Tobi =  any none Uchiha character, it was stated that the dude was an Uchiha, by Itachi one of the most intelligent character in the manga

2. Tobi = Uchiha Izune, his own brother stated he was dead, also Gai wouldn't have seen his face

3. Tobi = Uchiha Shisui, Itachi stated he was dead and to think Itachi wouldn't know Tobi is Shisui is pretty dam ridiculous

4. Tobi = Uchiha Fugeko, Itachi killed him personally and again to think Itachi wouldn't know Tobi is Shisui is pretty dam ridiculous

5. Tobi = Uchiha Setsuna, I'm the one who came up with this theory, but even I admit it's highly unlikely now considering that Gai would not know his face and he wouldn't know Kakashi as well as he does.

6. Tobi = Madara Clone, Gai wouldn't have seen random clone's face and he wouldn't know Kakashi this well after only meeting him briefly a few times.

7. Tobi = Uchiha Kagami, this is the only other plausible one, but still very unlikely that he would know Kakash that well and that Gai would have seen his face. Also why would Kishi even make the guy Kagami, it's not going to be a shocking reveal to anyone unless Kishi starts doing flashbacks to Kagami right now, to build some attachment between the readers and Kagami's character.

8. Tobi = New Uchiha, sure it could be, but again I struggle with why this reveal would be shocking and what unknown Uchiha who knew Guy and Kakashi could have escaped the massacre


Obito just fits perfectly with everything we have seen before. He is the most likely candidate, to argue other wise is silly at this point.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Jul 18, 2012)

It's Kakashi's dad.

Just kidding, he isn't powerful enough to be Sakumo.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 18, 2012)

The faithless are shaking in their boots. 

Repent, for Judgement Day is upon us.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 18, 2012)

about the tobi=obito-

remember when tobi said to minato that he lives up to his moniker "yellow flash" & that he deserves the title of hokage?

now wouldn't obito of ALL people already know that he lives up to the yellow flash name? and knowing his master so well that he was hokage material?

giant hole in the tobi=obito theory right there.

now,that being said,its possible that its obito's body and madara's consciousness but i doubt it.


----------



## Rinnegan Zetsu (Jul 18, 2012)

As well as MS sasuke
&
As well as MS sasuke
-


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

damn you kishi

I'm still calling your bluff. Making it look like Obito now, but before you made it look like Izuna a lil while back. fucker...


----------



## ironblade_x1 (Jul 18, 2012)

The only reason it'd be a "low" is because you naysayers know you're going to get 10+ years worth of pent up "I TOLD YOU SO"s.


----------



## Phemt (Jul 18, 2012)

Yes Izuna, the most irrelevant Uchiha is Tobi.

Some people. 



I guess there's no using a brain if you don't have one.


----------



## Lelouch71 (Jul 18, 2012)

I honestly didn't want to believe it either like the rest of you skeptics, but I'm starting to believe Tobi might be Obito. This is the same manga where the filler brothers gain Kyuubi powers, Itachi freed himself, and Madara even freed himself as well. All three of these things are ridiculous and fanfic like yet they came to past. Kishi isn't shy about giving characters bullshit reasons.

I knew Tobi will probably get a sob story so him becoming a megalomaniac because of Rin wouldn't be surprising for me. Not to mention it would work with Kishi finally giving Kakashi some material after all these years.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

Sutol said:


> Yes Izuna, the most irrelevant Uchiha is Tobi.
> 
> Some people.
> 
> ...



Yeah, sure. Cause Madara wasn't angry at Uchiha because it was Izuna who gave up his eyes (which for an Uchiha is like commiting suicide). Why? because Izuna gave up his eyes for his older brother who was at the time the leader of the clan. So in reality or the bigger picture, he gave up his eyes for THE CLAN...only for the clan to turn their back on Madara basically turning their back on Izuna's sacrifice.

Kagami is irrelevant and is practically fodder THAT is the most irrelevant Uchiha. Izuna at the very least was regarded as Madara's equal in every way. That was until his sacrifice. At least Izuna has a story, unlike Kagami. Damn kishi, what have you done


----------



## HakuGaara (Jul 18, 2012)

Turrin said:


> In a picture of Kishimoto's own notes for the movie he states Tobi is Obito and Takl states this was in reference to Tobi being Obito outside of Tsukuyomi universe, which as we saw in this recent special chapter for the movie it is the same or very similar to the manga universe



Do you have a link to this? I just did a search and couldn't really find anything.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 18, 2012)

Sutol said:


> Yes *Izuna*, the *most irrelevant Uchiha* is Tobi.
> 
> Some people.
> 
> ...



What the fuck am I reading?

Get off the Tobito wave here mate.

For christs sake, Izuna is the man who was Madaras equal and one of the main reasons he became so strong, ultimately a main reason why Madara hated his clan as his brother sacrificed his eyes for nothing.
But the most irrelevant Uchiha, what bullshit.

Seriously lol man, as soon as an ounce of hope of being right regarding Tobi being Obito exists yous think you own the world.


----------



## Deadweight (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi is Shisui, and Shisui is Obito's older brother. Before Itachi and Sasuke carried the hopes of their clan (being the 2nd pair of brothers to be able to one day awaken EMS), Obito and Shisui were supposed to play that role previously. However, When Obito died, this plan was not only ruined but to learn of the death of his brother on a mission that Kakashi was supposed to be in charge of, and the fact that obito had just finally awoken the sharingan minutes before his death, would have clearly been enough motivation for a character with naruto-like ambitions to start to go bad and lose faith in the shinobi world.

If Shisui was Obito's brother and blamed Kakashi for not only Obito's death, but for the clan latter shifting focus from making Shisui the 2nd
EMS user and the golden boy of the uchiha, to rather the pair of Itachi and Sasuke. This would also make a lot of sense for why Tobi would have
a sour taste in his mouth towards the uchiha.

All the unexplained things regarding Kakashi can be explained better if Tobi is Shisui than if Tobi is Obito. Kakashi has no loved ones alive at the start of the series because Tobi had been secretly killing them all, so that Kakashi would feel the same loss he felt when obito died. Rin was probably murdered by Tobi personally, and this is why Kishi is taking so long to address that even though he stated he would. This also explains the reason Kakashi never passed a team before Narutos team, he unconciously sensed that any comrade of his was doomed but Naruto's resemblance to Minato/Naruto's talk no jutsu convinced him to take a chance.

Also one problem I rarely see brought up regarding obito=tobi theories, but a major one, is that Sasuke went blind after a few battles spamming his MS, but Tobi has been using that eye and it's s/t jutsu for like 20 years and doesn't appear to have any eyesight problems. Therefore his eye must be an EMS not just an MS. Therefore he cannot be Obito if that single eye was originally obitos. I think it makes more sense if Shisui was going blind from spamming Kotoamatsukami, knew that his eyes were too valued by the clan and Danzou for him to just disapear with them, knew he had to give them away so he did so before he faked his death.

Shisui's signature jutsu is a jutsu that implants memories and gives the target false experiences without the target being aware of any of it. And
everything we know about the character is taken from the flashbacks and memories of one other character. Meaning that everything we know about
Shisui could have been falsified with one Koto on Itachi. Regardless of who Tobi is, his public and private faces are going to have to be markedly different. 

We know that there is a running theme between the bloody mist practises in the hidden mist, the tactics used to eliminate your personality in Root,
Itachi and Danzou's ideal of a nameless shinobi who protects from the shadows, and tobi's view I am no one. I think out of all the possible Tobi
candidates, Shisui is perhaps the only one who can link all these. If Shisui was in Root, and was using Kotoamatsukami to control Danzou then not
only that wierd coincidence between the early mist and root would be explained, but most of the bad things danzou did could simply have been due
to being under the influence of Shisui's Koto. The connection between Shisui and the mist is pretty glaring, with Mei stating directly that koto was most likely the jutsu used to control the 4th mizukage, who we already know was being controlled by Tobi. Also Ao's, mysterious encounter with Shisui, and the Ao being mysteriously absent everytime Tobi makes an appearance.

So if tobi is Shisui and he is the originator of Itachi's and Danzou's ideals (and hence why they are so similar to both each others and Tobi's)
then not only are the bad deeds attributed to these characters instead attributed to him, but it would add to the theme of Tobi having kind of
the opposite to Narutos talk-no-jutsu. Nagato, Sasuke, Danzou, Itachi, Akatsuki, with the exception of Tobi and Madara, these guys are responsible
 for pretty much all the bad things that have happened in the narutoverse. I think Tobi's manipulative powers can only be explained this way, if he
placed false experiences in those he intended to manipulate for his plan  before he gave his eyes away. 

Also, he is simply the most relevent Uchiha to the storyline.
- knew the Uchiha bros, Danzou, and likely many other Konoha shinobi
- Was introduced extremely early with a very mysterious death, with certain elements of the original story being proven false
- Has received constant mention throughout the manga, with character and abilities revealed as the story progressed. This is something
kagami/izuna/setsuna theories don't have.
- In a clan famous for having the strongest Yin chakra and genjutsu, he is mentioned as the best genjutsu user (over itachi and madara)
- He is a parallel to sasuke and naruto, which is something that only shisui and obito can say.
- If the obito bit is true, then he also has a huge link to Kakashi and even a parallel with Itachi. Since Shisuis character would in a sense
be like Naruto/Itachi if they had lost Sasuke (if obito's death was the thing that sent Shisui down the wrong path).
-


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 18, 2012)

ZionHalcyon said:


> Need an education on the timeline?
> 
> 
> When Obito happened, it was in the midst of the 3rd Ninja war and Minato wasn't even Hokage yet.
> ...



Kakashi Gaiden happened approx. just a year before Tobi fought Minato:



_18 yrs ago - Third Great Ninja War begins. 

18 ~ 17 yrs ago - Kakashi Gaiden. Sasori abducts the Sandaime Kazekage. Orochimaru leaves Konoha after his experiments were discovered. Minato becomes the Yondaime Hokage. Minato fights Ei, the Yondaime Raikage and Killer Bee. Minato invents a new jutsu after witnessing Hachibi forming the Bijuu Dama. He calls the new jutsu the Rasengan. 

17 yrs ago - Minato names unborn child Naruto after book by Jiraiya. Shortly after, Minato becomes Yondaime Hokage. Neji Hyuuga, Rock Lee, Tenten, and Sai are born. 

16 yrs ago - Uzumaki Naruto is born. Namikaze Minato sacrifices himself sealing the 9-tails into Naruto after 9-tails was released by Tobi. Kushina dies after using the last of her chakra to form the Hakke Seal. Jiraiya is again offered the post of Hokage, but declines, feeling responsible for not being able to redeem Orochimaru or saving Minato. Hiruzen assumes Hokage leadership again. Gaara, Shino Aburame, Suigetsu Hoozuki, Sakura Haruno, Choji Akimichi, Karin, Kiba Inuzuka, Sasuke Uchiha, Shikamaru Nara, Ino Yamanaka are born._


Tobi was a full-grown man when he fought Minato. There is no way for Obito to grow into an adult in just a matter of 12 months.


----------



## Lews Therin Telamon (Jul 18, 2012)

Evil said:


> Even if Tobi is not Obito, he's someone that Gai and Kakashi know or knew.
> 
> A lot of people are missing the significance of that scene. Tobi talks about Kakashi as if he's familiar with him, he states that Kakashi always opens his mouth easily and this is why his life is full of regrets.
> 
> ...


Wow, a person with common sense. Thank you.

I think Tobi is either Obito, or someone who has invaded his mind and body (maybe even sharing his memories). That person could be the Elder son, Izuna or Kagami. I really don't see any other (likely) possibilities.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2012)

kiroisenko said:


> Kakashi Gaiden happened approx. just a year before Tobi fought Minato:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



During the fight with kyuubi, kakashi and gai had grown considerably, Kakashi was even in Anbu at this time.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

Obito being Tobi is too obvious for a mysterious character.  In most indenity mysteries the most obvious guy usually isn't him.  I think that's one of the reasons everyone is against it.  I know it was mine and the timeline.  

I mean the name, the opposite eyes, S/T powers like Kakashi, even Kakashi and Guy being ordinary guys in a super powered RS battle for no reason.


----------



## Lelouch71 (Jul 18, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Obito being Tobi is too obvious for a mysterious character.  In most indenity mysteries the most obvious guy usually isn't him.  I think that's one of the reasons everyone is against it.  I know it was mine and the timeline.
> 
> I mean the name, the opposite eyes, S/T powers like Kakashi, even Kakashi and Guy being ordinary guys in a super powered RS battle for no reason.


Many people theorize that Pain wasn't Nagato because it was too obvious. Look how that turned out. Kishi isn't exactly that clever. Whether he's Tobi or not, he's obviously someone who knows Kakashi and Guy decently well.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2012)

Itαchi said:


> *How about this theory:*
> *
> Tobi is both, Madara and Obito.*
> 
> ...



Madara "died" around the time the Second Hokage would be put in place. That means Hiruzen was a teen/young adult and J-man, tsunade, and oro were still young. Which means Minato, nor obito would have existed for another god knows how many years. I doubt he survived those many years, in time to discover Obito's body


----------



## Jad (Jul 18, 2012)

Obviously Tobi is Jealous his not part of the Duo called "The Masters"  Why else would he go to all this trouble?


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

daschysta said:


> It's pretty obvious that whoever Tobi is knows Gai and Kakashi personally. Kishi isn't subtle, he doesn't really do smokescreens.



of course they'd recognize him, naruto should too. else the reveal would be anti climatic

FUGAKU friend


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 18, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> about the tobi=obito-
> 
> remember when tobi said to minato that he lives up to his moniker "yellow flash" & that he deserves the title of hokage?
> 
> now wouldn't obito of ALL people already know that he lives up to the yellow flash name? and knowing his master so well that he was hokage material?



Minato wasn't Hokage yet when Obito last saw him, and it would have been some time since their last meeting.

I don't see how this is a hole at all.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

kiroisenko said:


> Kakashi Gaiden happened approx. just a year before Tobi fought Minato:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's about 2 years.  Naruto is 16 and Obito "died" 18 years ago.  That's enough time to heal and grow.  Minato was 5'9.  Are you telling me it's impossible for a kid to be 5'9 at age 15?


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 18, 2012)

I don't believe the Tobi = Obito theory but I do believe that Tobi is using the body of Obito. That's the only part of the Obito theory that I *now* believe.


----------



## kiroisenko (Jul 18, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> During the fight with kyuubi, kakashi and gai had grown considerably, Kakashi was even in Anbu at this time.



Itachi became ANBU when he was 10 and a half. 

inch away from his neck.

Kakashi, Gai, and the rest of their group were just kids compared to Kurenai's father on the top panel. 

Tobi on the other hand was of the same height as Minato when they fought: 

inch away from his neck.


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 18, 2012)

*How about this theory:**

Tobi is both, Madara and Obito.
*
Madara lost at the VOTE but survived with great injuries and kept himself alive
via zetsu goo (maybe Zetsu even is some fucked up Sharingan Jutsu, I could imagine that)

He hid his Identity from then on, and as he was dying he found a little child, Obito, so he
helped him staying alive, with Zetsu goo as well, so he had an apprentice from then on and some time after Madara fought with Yondaime, Madara has died and placed some of his soul into Obito, who took the role of Tobi from then on.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 18, 2012)

I still find it hard to deem it as coincidence from Kishi that he told us about Uchiha Rebels during Tobiramas reign who decided to follow into Madaras footsteps due to Nidaime screwing them over with the Police.

Personally I think that point is important somehow.


----------



## k2nice (Jul 18, 2012)

Tryke said:


> Kakashi Gaiden shows us how he awakens his sharingan and eventually saves Kakashi and Rin, but gets crushed by the rocks.  Unless Obito was faking it the whole time in this arc, *he could not have believably become strong enough in the short time gap to be Tobi.*
> 
> Conclusion: Tobi is not Obito, at least not in mind/spirit.



The bold i have a problem with.
There should be about a two to three year gap between the gaiden and that fight. A lot can happen in two or three years.

Look at Sasuke, Naruto, Kabuto, Chouji, Kakashi. Each of them are good examples of how someone can grow in a couple of years. 

If they can do it why can't Obito do it with a little help and modifications?

Tobi wasn't even very strong, he had his warping jutsu, a kunai, and genjutsu that could control the fox which sasuke showed that he can do that to a lesser extent.


----------



## Phemt (Jul 18, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> Maybe I'm just blind but I'm still not seeing where it states Tobi is Obito?



Tobi is not being revealed as Obito in the movie or in that movie chapter, this is a common misconception people seem to have.

He'll be revealed to be Shisui in the limited tsukyomi.


----------



## tupadre97 (Jul 18, 2012)

I really hope he isnt Obito. Maybe shisui.


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

Lol at all the Tobito haters in denial.:rofl Once it's completely revealed, they'll have no defense and have to accept it. The promised time is finally at hand. They can hate all they want but it doesn't change a thing. And for those who say they'll quit the manga if Tobi is Obito, then good riddance. It will be nice to get rid of so called "fans" who couldn't see this coming. All these years of people hatin' and it's comin' back at 'em. Better get your apologies ready.


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

tupadre97 said:


> I really hope he isnt Obito. Maybe shisui.


Shisui makes no logical sense. See, this is what I mean, you don't want him to be Obito so you try to force out long disproven theories like Shisui.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

1. When Obito unlocked his Sharingan he SEEMED on par with Kakashi who was a jounin.
2. Tobi's fight with Minato was not a great display of skill. It was a great display of doujutsu.  S/T and sharigan bijuu control.  He tried to teleport Minato with a sneak attack.  He got past ANBU with teleport of course and find Kushina.  We've seen him seem to have the ability to find anyone with his teleport.  He used a chain and phased through Minato.  He tried a head on attack to warp Minato and failed.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 18, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> Maybe I'm just blind but I'm still not seeing where it states Tobi is Obito?



It was a post takl made in the movie thread about a magazine article he'd seen.

I'd find it but I'm kinda short on time right now.



Sutol said:


> Tobi is not being revealed as Obito in the movie or in that movie chapter, this is a common misconception people seem to have.
> 
> He'll be revealed to be Shisui in the limited tsukyomi.



No, the face that's supposedly Shisui's is the other masked man in the movie.


----------



## Deadway (Jul 18, 2012)

*Wait...shouldn't Hinata already know who Tobi is?*

Back when they first met him, Hinata used byakugan on him. Shouldn't she be able to see through his mask...and see his face...then identify it to Kakashi, who can then conclude who he is....

.......
..............


----------



## Mr. 0 (Jul 18, 2012)

His mask is made of plot.


----------



## Nidaime Mizukage (Jul 18, 2012)

She doesn't know who he is... so if she seen his face, wouldn't matter.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 18, 2012)

Kishi can't make that happen due to plot reasons.


----------



## Phemt (Jul 18, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> It was a post takl made in the movie thread about a magazine article he'd seen.
> 
> I'd find it but I'm kinda short on time right now.
> 
> ...



Are you saying there is another masked man? Oh if that's the case.

It wouldn't have made much sense for Tobi to be in his own tsukuyomi.


----------



## Noctis Dragneel (Jul 18, 2012)

Just in case somebody missed it:


----------



## Rawri (Jul 18, 2012)

But she doesn't know what Obito(or Izuna or whatever) look like, so what can she tell? Unless they show her pictures of everyone.


----------



## Mutant Anemone (Jul 18, 2012)

I always knew Tobito theory was trufax. :ho


----------



## k2nice (Jul 18, 2012)

.....She could use a transformation jutsu


----------



## Scizor (Jul 18, 2012)

Nobody remembers the byakugan anyway.


----------



## Rawri (Jul 18, 2012)

k2nice said:


> .....She could use a transformation jutsu



...True


----------



## Chuck (Jul 18, 2012)

Hinata obviously doesn't recognize who Tobi is.

besides, wouldn't she just see his facial chakra network or something?


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 18, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Minato wasn't Hokage yet when Obito last saw him, and it would have been some time since their last meeting.
> 
> I don't see how this is a hole at all.



obito knows minato's nickname and his incredible speed,and after being his student for so long he surely knew his character as a man,it's also highly likely that he knew his own sensei was one of the strongest if not thee strongest in the village.

it would be common sense to think that obito would atleast have an idea about the above,yet tobi's interaction and dialog would make no sense if it was obito,rather from the way tobi spoke it was as if it was the first time he had actually witnessed minato in action.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> obito knows minato's nickname and his incredible speed,and after being his student for so long he surely knew his character as a man,it's also highly likely that he knew his own sensei was one of the strongest if not thee strongest in the village.
> 
> it would be common sense to think that obito would atleast have an idea about the above,yet tobi's interaction and dialog would make no sense if it was obito,rather from the way tobi spoke it was as if it was the first time he had actually witnessed minato in action.



That or he was surpised that he actually escaped his powers.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 18, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> That or he was surpised that he actually escaped his powers.



right but see, thats the thing,if tobi was obito,and obito 1st hand has seen what minato was capable of,shouldn't he have known that there was a possibility if anyone could escape his tech. that it would be minato?

other wise he would be kind of an idiot to not even contemplate the possibility.


----------



## Madai (Jul 18, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Tobi's personality when fucking around is the same as Obito's.
> 
> ..... .....
> 
> 2. Tobi's Sharingan possesses similar if not the same powers as Obito's sharingan. He even goes as far to say that Obito's sharingan's powers won't work on him.



Can you show some panel comparisons where Tobi is acting like Obito?  I don't see it.

Would Obito's sharingan powers work on Minato?  I think not, Tobi's sure didn't!  So, the fact Obito's sharingan powers wouldn't work on Tobi are not because of Tobi's particular sharingan, they are because Tobi is a space-time jutsu user.

Anyway... the idea the Tobi can't be Obito is based on the idea that Obito was a "good guy".  I wonder if a compelling case can be made that Obito was evil all along.


----------



## kingcools (Jul 18, 2012)

Daryoon said:


> Christ, the composition of the panels (Tobi taunts Kakashi > Kakashi reaction > Gai questions > Tobi taunts Gai > Kakashi reaction) ought to be enough to drive the point home.
> 
> Kakashi's reaction suggests he knows it's Obito, and has possibly suspected for a while. I'd go as far to say he's suspected since he first noticed Tobi's sharingan. The slight interplay between them after the Danzou battle also hinted that Kakashi knew (the whole "You know that technique won't work on me" thing).
> 
> ...



yupp, this.
Who does not think tobi = obito is a moron.
edit:
guess why kishi added the interlude between part 1 and part 2... to introduce obito, the almost final villain. Thats the reason, it's needed for the plot. anything else would be bad writing.


----------



## Killer Zylos Wolf (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi's masks are special


----------



## Chibason (Jul 18, 2012)

If it ends being Obito then I'm sure Kishi will have a decent explanation for it.....


----------



## Klue (Jul 18, 2012)

A Zetsu type clone of Madara wielding Hashirama's powers. At some point in time, he likely/possibly took hold of Obito's remaining Sharingan. If Kishi takes this to the extreme, he might have taken his face and body as well.

But I don't see the need.

Regardless, as I've stated before: Tobi existed prior to Obito's birth. The fact that Madara is aware of him, and apparently worked with him, is proof of this. Outside of time travel, he is not Obito in spirit.


----------



## Easley (Jul 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Shisui makes no logical sense. See, this is what I mean, you don't want him to be Obito so you try to force out long disproven theories like Shisui.


Shisui makes no sense and yet Obito does? Look, believing in your own crazy theory does not rule out other crazy theories. Shisui had panel time - his unique sharingan earned him that.


----------



## Datakim (Jul 18, 2012)

Hinata did not remark on it the same reason none of the Hyuuga in the village found it odd that Danzo was walking around with Hashiramas face growing on his shoulder and an arm with eyes(!) on it.

If an explanation is ever warranted, you could just say there was somekind of anti-doujutsu fuuinjutsu on the mask, but no one cares about the byakugan anymore.


----------



## Klue (Jul 18, 2012)

Plot mask is plot protected.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi was around for the creation of Akatsuki and was around during the bloody mist when Kisame was still finding his way. He was around before Obito's birth and during his childhood. To say otherwise is to ignore manga cannon. There's no plausible way he's fully Obito, body and soul.

That's all I need to say.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Tobi was around for the creation of Akatsuki and was around during the bloody mist when Kisame was still finding his way. He was around before Obito's birth and during his childhood. To say otherwise is to ignore manga cannon. There's no plausible way he's fully Obito, body and soul.
> 
> That's all I need to say.



Creation of Akatsuki was it Tobi or Madara?  Or perhaps he was lying to dishearten Konan or was part of his Madara impersonation.

Kisame was 32 so no they're about the same age if Tobi is Obito.


----------



## gjoerulv (Jul 18, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> He thought he was Madara.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



None of these are confirmed. Just educated guesses that may turn out to be wrong.

I'm not denying Tobito btw. I'm simply pointing out that there are gonna be a ton of xplaining to do if he is. Nothing is 100% confirmed, as some people want it to be. There simply are thorough speculations that can be true, but even if he is Obito the "evidence" for him being Tobi may as well be false, and Tobito could still be true.

In any case, to nail his ID there is bound to be new info presented. Either before or after his mask comes off. Imo, Kishi has done a damn fine job when it comes to Tobi. It's very fun to see all these ideas of who he might be. :amazed

Any comeback on how Obito could have given Nagato the rinnegan? Unless he lied to Konan, which there was no reason to. Mock her?


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi said it was him. And he was obviously fully an adult when he met Kisame (don't bring me this other height shit) the first time. He towered over Yagura and Kisame recognized him on two different occasions. Unless of course people believe that he picked himself up, met Madara, invaded the mist and put a Jin under a genjutsu for long stretches of time.



Seriously, anyone endorsing the idea that this is Obit's soul has some serious reading disabilities.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> None of these are confirmed. Just educated guesses that may turn out to be wrong.
> 
> I'm not denying Tobito btw. I'm simply pointing out that there are gonna be a ton of xplaining to do if he is. Nothing is 100% confirmed, as some people want it to be. There simply are thorough speculations that can be true, but even if he is Obito the "evidence" for him being Tobi may as well be false, and Tobito could still be true.
> 
> ...



I'm just given easy answers.   If he is Obito he was lying.  But he turned around and lied about fighting Hashirama after Kabuto showed him his own body lol.  We know that Madara fought Hashirama himself by all the non stop wanking he gives him.  

And also don't forget that even Itachi's timeline was jacked up.


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

Madai said:


> Can you show some panel comparisons where Tobi is acting like Obito?  I don't see it.
> 
> Would Obito's sharingan powers work on Minato?  I think not, Tobi's sure didn't!  So, the fact Obito's sharingan powers wouldn't work on Tobi are not because of Tobi's particular sharingan, they are because Tobi is a space-time jutsu user.
> 
> Anyway... the idea the Tobi can't be Obito is based on the idea that Obito was a "good guy".  I wonder if a compelling case can be made that Obito was evil all along.


Obito having been good is not even a dent in the Tobito theory. There's nothing that that says he couldn't have turned evil after Gaiden. Rin's death, war, Madara tempting him. No one makes sense anymore except for obito. In fact, no one ever did except for Obito.



Easley said:


> Shisui makes no sense and yet Obito does? Look, believing in your own crazy theory does not rule out other crazy theories. Shisui had panel time - his unique sharingan earned him that.


Shisui is just plain out illogical. I'm not even going to explain. Obito is perfectly logical. Don't believe me? Fine. The manga will explain it for me soon enough. Lol, Obito had much more panel time than Shisui. And Obito had a unique sharingan as well.

Oh, and to all the other Tobito haters:
*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Tobi said it was him. And he was obviously fully an adult when he met Kisame (don't bring me this other height shit) the first time. He towered over Yagura and Kisame recognized him on two different occasions. Unless of course people believe that he picked himself up, met Madara, invaded the mist and put a Jin under a genjutsu for long stretches of time.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, anyone endorsing the idea that this is Obit's soul has some serious reading disabilities.



1. Tobi's a liar lol.
2. Kisame was 32 and Obito would be 29-31 if Kisame is an adult so would Obito.   What are you talking about?
EDIT: Height is dumb because Itachi was young and adult looking when he killed his clan at 13.


----------



## m1cojakle (Jul 18, 2012)

*Why does Tobi = Obito?*

I will tell you why.  Put the letters t, o, b, i around a circle and what do you get? Start with O and if you go all the way around the circle and end with O you get obito. Its so obvious!  Kishi isn't very sly.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

> Tobi's a liar lol.



So then he didn't create Akatsuki? What reason did he have to lie? He was gonna kill her. This is convenient isn't it?

Tobi was around before Obito even knew what a kunai was.


----------



## gjoerulv (Jul 18, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> I'm just given easy answers.   If he is Obito he was lying.  But he turned around and lied about fighting Hashirama after Kabuto showed him his own body lol.  We know that Madara fought Hashirama himself by all the non stop wanking he gives him.
> 
> And also don't forget that even Itachi's timeline was jacked up.



He has lied a lot, yeah, but I don't see any reason for him to lie when he was gonna kill her. He was mocking her by telling her the ugly truth. That's how I read the situation.

Wanking? lol wut?

Hmmm Itachi's timeline jacked up? Hmm, how? 1st time I've heard at least.


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 18, 2012)

Is Tobi and Obito even spelled the same way in japanese?


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 18, 2012)

Beaten to death so many times it's not even funny.


----------



## αce (Jul 18, 2012)

Whatever I'm done arguing.
Tobi's mask is gonna come off but no matter what it's not Obito's soul in that body.


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm pretty sure you're joking...

 There are many amazing pieces of evidence for the Tobito theory, but this is not one, as the English letters have no baring on the Japanese characters. Although, in Japanese, Tobi spelled backwards is "Bito".


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> So then he didn't create Akatsuki? What reason did he have to lie? He was gonna kill her. This is convenient isn't it?
> 
> Tobi was around before Obito even knew what a kunai was.



Why did he continue to pretend to be Madara to Kabuto even though he was shown Madara's body?  

Or perhaps the author wanted us to believe he was Madara despite it all...


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Jul 18, 2012)

Byakugan vision looks like this. So even if she did see behind the mask she didnt actually see a face.


----------



## PassionateStoic (Jul 18, 2012)

It was said that his mask is made of "special materials."
Its why Naruto didn't smash through it like tissue when they bumped heads.


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 18, 2012)

PassionateStoic said:


> It was said that his mask is made of "special materials."
> Its why Naruto didn't smash through it like tissue when they bumped heads.



His war mask was said to be made of special material. That orange mask is a different story and that's the one that Hinata likely saw through.


----------



## ueharakk (Jul 18, 2012)

Byakugan only allows the user to see the outline of objects and chakra network of a person through solid material.  It can't distinguish a person's face, only the outline.


----------



## m1cojakle (Jul 18, 2012)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Is Tobi and Obito even spelled the same way in japanese?



It would have been to obvious to the japanese because of how smart they are.  So kishi coded the name in english.


----------



## gjoerulv (Jul 18, 2012)

read ^ /thread


----------



## Palpatine (Jul 18, 2012)

This was something I noticed a while ago too.

Either it's plot or she didn't get a good look at his face for some reason.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 18, 2012)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Is Tobi and Obito even spelled the same way in japanese?



Kind of.

Obito: オビト

Tobi: トビ


----------



## gjoerulv (Jul 18, 2012)

She only saw his chackra lines so it would be hard to distinguish his face. Again /thread


----------



## AMtrack (Jul 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm pretty sure you're joking...
> 
> There are many amazing pieces of evidence for the Tobito theory, but this is not one, as the English letters have no baring on the Japanese characters. Although, in Japanese, Tobi spelled backwards is "Bito".



Except "Bito" to the Japanese would have sounded stupid, so Kishi added a syllable so it actually...sounded like a name lol.

It is definitely a Japanese play on words though, so it can't be ignored.


----------



## k2nice (Jul 18, 2012)

Valgaav said:


> Byakugan vision looks like this. So even if she did see behind the mask she didnt actually see a face.



Not true 
Proof: _Ino alerts her allies to the fact that he must be killed five times over_
_Ino alerts her allies to the fact that he must be killed five times over_
_Ino alerts her allies to the fact that he must be killed five times over_

Neji was able to describe the area around the tags too.


----------



## gjoerulv (Jul 18, 2012)

k2nice said:


> Not true
> Proof: Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



So she could peek inside the mask with that? All Hinata could see was his mask. Her byakugan would have to enter the eye hole and kinda see in the dark to ID his face. And even then, why would she recognise him.


----------



## Synn (Jul 18, 2012)

The answer is obvious: how could she identify someone she never met?

If Tobi is Obito (lol) like many claimed, then she doesn't know him because they never met.


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Jul 18, 2012)

k2nice said:


> Not true
> Proof: Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



1. Neji's Byakugan is superior to Hinata's

2. Thats just telescopic vision. Hyuuga can see far distances, through wall etc, but when it comes to living things they go past skin/flesh/bones and go straight to seeing the chakra pool, chakra network, and chakra points. 

Perhaps if they zoomed out a bit


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

*Haters Gonna Hate!*


----------



## principito (Jul 18, 2012)

Nidaime Mizukage said:


> She doesn't know who he is... so if she seen his face, wouldn't matter.



pretty much this

its not like she'll go around the army asking people

"hey, have u ever met a guy with this and that description"

uggggggggg


some people just post threads without even thinking

FUCKING THINK GUYS


----------



## jgalt7 (Jul 18, 2012)

what's a byakugan?


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 18, 2012)

daschysta said:


> It's pretty obvious that whoever Tobi is knows Gai and Kakashi personally. Kishi isn't subtle, he doesn't really do smokescreens.



Why is that "obvious?" Is it because of the two lines said by Tobi that are easily explained filler dialogue?

He mentioned Gai not remember faces, because he couldn't remember Kisame.
He mentioned Kakashi's regret because he let Sasuke leave Konoha.

Now, why is this "obvious" again?


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 18, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> How would you know since we don't even know who Tobi is? Saying "You can never remember faces so telling you is pointless" is a direct implication that Tobi and Gai have met face to face in the past.



Are the people who believe this trolling, or do they not read the manga?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 18, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> Why is that "obvious?" Is it because of the two lines said by Tobi that are easily explained filler dialogue?



You think that was "filler dialogue"? 

No, Tobi said what he did for a reason, and it was not simply to fill up the panels.


----------



## Bender (Jul 18, 2012)

I will officially quit this manga if Obito is Tobi


----------



## kzk (Jul 18, 2012)

KiShiDo said:


> Even if this chapter was strange and makes me really believe that Tobi could be Obito... There are too many holes in it



Maybe not know Guy personally, though certainly it seems both he and Kakashi would be aware of this person.


----------



## egressmadara (Jul 18, 2012)

Tis is a stretch, but you may b onto somethin.....


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Jul 18, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> 1. When Obito unlocked his Sharingan he SEEMED on par with Kakashi who was a jounin.



He seemed stronger than Kakashi, since he saved Kakashi three times.  Once from the invisible jonin, then from the knife jonin, and then from falling rocks.


----------



## Palpatine (Jul 18, 2012)

I don't really care anymore.


----------



## Archangel Michael (Jul 18, 2012)

She could only see charka network


----------



## Blur (Jul 18, 2012)

The anime made the Byakugan vision so bad, that you can see only the Chakra canals. If you check the Neji vs Naruto fight or Hinata vs Neji in part one, you can see the face.


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Jul 18, 2012)

Bender said:


> I will officially quit this manga if Obito is Tobi



Why would you do that?  It's not like Tobi as Obito hasn't been set up for more than half the manga...


----------



## Bender (Jul 18, 2012)

Palpatine said:


> I don't really care anymore.



lol That's how I feel about lackluster anime that I watch for shits and giggles.


----------



## Black Mirror (Jul 18, 2012)

If Obito is Tobi, then something really terrible must have happened to Rin. Rin would be the trigger of why he's doing all this things. Madara would be the one who saved him and wanted to use him as a pawn but Obito realized this, killed Madara and changed his plan a little. Rin would kinda explain why he has 2 personalities - as result of trauma?


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Obito having been good is not even a dent in the Tobito theory. There's nothing that that says he couldn't have turned evil after Gaiden. Rin's death, war, Madara tempting him. No one makes sense anymore except for obito. In fact, no one ever did except for Obito.
> 
> Shisui is just plain out illogical. I'm not even going to explain. Obito is perfectly logical. Don't believe me? Fine. The manga will explain it for me soon enough. Lol, Obito had much more panel time than Shisui. And Obito had a unique sharingan as well.
> 
> ...



You must've missed the chapter where the cave collapsed on him and killed him.

I guess with a name/avatar like yours we can't expect impartiality. Any slim possible coincidences will be misconstrued by Obitards as guaranteed evidence that Tobi=Obito.

Promise me you'll delete the account when you're proven wrong.


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 18, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Why would you do that?  It's not like Tobi as Obito hasn't been set up for more than half the manga...



By "set up" you mean ignoring everything outside of a special couple of filler chapters, and even then, ignoring the end of that...

K.


----------



## siyrean (Jul 18, 2012)

never understood why people thought Obito was subpar. It was just Kakashi heckling him.


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 18, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> now,that being said,its possible that its obito's body and madara's consciousness but i doubt it.



I?ve never understood this idea. Why would anyone want the body of an unremarkable genin with one immature, damaged sharingan?

This was during the third great war. Konoha would have had numerous casualties that statistically would have to have included skilled, jounin level Uchiha. Obito was practically worthless. Why go through so much trouble for so little? It doesn?t make any sense to me.


----------



## Bender (Jul 18, 2012)

Judging by Madara's knowledge of Edo Tensei I'd say that Tobi is a result of implanting Madara's younger brother Izuna's soul into Obito's body. Izuna being Madara's brother and seeing how capable he is he's undoubtedly familiar with his history and thus is able to imitate his brother and his aura flawlessly. The only thing able to give him away is his appearance. The reason why he calls himself "No one" is because he thinks his new form is an abomination. He has the memories of Obito and his own as Izuna.


----------



## Prince Vegeta (Jul 18, 2012)

*what if tobi is one of orochimariu's experiement?*

like yamato..

much better than tobi being Obito....


----------



## Sketh (Jul 18, 2012)

cokshura said:


> Orochimaru is based on the Orochi beast. A multiheaded serpent kind ob beast that was evil and loved sake. It was killed by Susano.





"He and his nemesis Orochimaru transform into two daikaiju, a toad and dragon, respectively, and have a duel to the death."

Orochimaru's "Yamata no orochi" technique is based off of the Eight headed serpent.


----------



## Bender (Jul 18, 2012)

*Izuna spirit + Obito=Tobi*

Izuna was never seen dying and he has all the motives that Madara could have. He was shown being incapacitated without eyes, but in the manga it never shows him dying. I think Tobi said he died, but that would also be the perfect cover up.

IMO, it was decided that Madara would go all out and get Hashirama's cells whether he lost or not. When he got back, maybe it would unlock a new jutsu that allowed soul transferring? Madara was in a state that he would inevitably die after his loss (Izanagi) and it was decided that Izuna would find a way to revive him. They decided on giving Madara's new eyes to Nagato to revive him after his inevitable death. Then Zetsu helped them out and got Obito's body so Izuna could actually become mobile again and hence become Tobi. 

Why this is a possibility:

-Izuna is intimately familiar with the tale of Madara and Izuna

- Tobi's hairstyle when he approached Itachi is similar to how Madara looked when he was young and enabled him to fool Itachi into thinking it was him.

-When Itachi spoke with Sasuke when they faced off he said that he was "Madara".


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 18, 2012)

*I love how Obito's leading the pack*



I have been staring at this for a few minutes straight and laughing, because it fits so perfectly...lol. 

I like this better than that other ish we had like 2 weeks ago


----------



## ovanz (Jul 18, 2012)

Good for you Op.

The one between Itachi and Sasuke is shisui or kagami? probably shisui. Hard to tell by the lack of hair.


----------



## Phemt (Jul 18, 2012)

Izuna is seen in a tomb. He's dead.

Madara confirmed it as well.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 18, 2012)

It looks like Shisui, but I'm not sure


----------



## ovanz (Jul 18, 2012)

Valgaav said:


> Byakugan vision looks like this. So even if she did see behind the mask she didnt actually see a face.



/thread. She will only saw a skull and some chakra currents. 

That in the case Kishi even remembers what byakugan does.


----------



## ovanz (Jul 18, 2012)

Why Obito's body? a crushed body of a kid? I'm sure there's way more uchihas bodies they could had use. And the body of Obito would still be that of a teenager, when he was fighting against Minato.


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

Bender said:


> I will officially quit this manga if Obito is Tobi


Go ahead. Quitting the manga just because Tobi isn't who you want it to be shows that you were never really a true fan after all.



Pretty Good Satan said:


> Why would you do that?  It's not like Tobi as Obito hasn't been set up for more than half the manga...


Ikr.



Bender said:


> lol That's how I feel about lackluster anime that I watch for shits and giggles.


Lol, if you don't even like it then GTFO.



Anonymouse said:


> You must've missed the chapter where the cave collapsed on him and killed him.
> 
> I guess with a name/avatar like yours we can't expect impartiality. Any slim possible coincidences will be misconstrued by Obitards as guaranteed evidence that Tobi=Obito.
> 
> Promise me you'll delete the account when you're proven wrong.


Bitch, please. It's Obito. Get the fuck over it already. I can't wait to see your reaction when me and all the other Tobito believers are proven right. That's right. Not _if_. But *when*.



Anonymouse said:


> By "set up" you mean ignoring everything outside of a special couple of filler chapters, and even then, ignoring the end of that...
> 
> K.


it wasn't filler chapters. I don't even know what you mean considering everything in the manga is canon, dumbass.

Also, it was 5 whole chapters. Kishi obviously had something planned. You don't think it was important? It showed how Kakashi got his sharingan and introduced the main villain of the series.  Seriously, you're in denial. You've lost. Just give up.


----------



## iJutsu (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi's mask is his susanoo. All Hinata could see was a big slab of chakra with a sharingan in the corner.


----------



## Kage (Jul 18, 2012)

No.

even if she could i doubt it would be anyone she can identify.


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

Sorry if my "hater" comment offended you. I got a little carried away, lol.

Anyway, Kishi is practically feeding you clues, and you're still against it. It's really sad that you'll only understand once the mask comes off. Next thing you know, Tobi will be revealed to be Obito and you'll think it's a fake chapter.


----------



## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Jul 18, 2012)

You know I was completely sold on the obito/tobi theory at first just after his introduction and up until the Madara "revelation" where I was like "ok this guy is Madara, not Obito"...  Then gradually my suspicions came back and with this chapter I'm fairly convinced.

If this guy ISN'T Obito I'd be really surprised.


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

Izuna was seen dead in a coffin. It was said in the databook that Izuna died in battle after Madara took his eyes. Madara also said that Izuna was dead and that all that was left of him were his eyes and their power. He looked sad when saying it so he was most likely being genuine. Why do people ignore the obvious in favor of this theory? Izuna is just a background character used to explain EMS. -.-


----------



## KLNTIME (Jul 18, 2012)

"Nobody remembers the byakugan anyway."

This sentence is one of the most sad and discouraging things in the Naruto Universe.  Back in early Naruto (young) Byakugan was said to be as powerful if not more to Sharingan when the whole "eye powers" started.  Lets not forget that the Hyuga (spelling) clan was suppose to be again one of, if not the strongest clans in the Leaf. Hell even the cloud wanted its power and almost started another war in an attempt to obtain it. (Again in the early Naruto)

Kishi now just has them looking through trees and seeing chakra forms.  While Neji wasnt the best character, Kishi sure did build him up at the beginning to be a disappointment now.

What a waste of character development posabilities.  Take for example the exact counter to the Sharingan would of been interesting in itself like it appeared to be at the beginning.


----------



## Setsuna00 (Jul 18, 2012)

It's been so long, I'm not even sure I supported the idea that Tobi is Obito. I think I did though. Hopefully I did, because I'm going to enjoy not hearing from 80% of the members on here if it is true. It seems that way. The silence will be bliss. BUT in the meantime I'm enjoying all these arguments and will respond with this.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 18, 2012)

It's Shisui, and Obito has another kid's ass in his face.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

Kishi better have one helluva an explanation if Tobi turns out to be that weakling Obito who was weaker than the Sasuke that fought Haku. I mean he better have an excuse on top of an explanation on top of it all. Seriously Kishi, be prepared for the shitstorm if this comes to pass, Kishi...


----------



## Bender (Jul 18, 2012)

Sutol said:


> Izuna is seen in a tomb. He's dead.



Uh duh, I said that. I never assumed that he was. I'm saying that Obito's body is harboring Izuna's soul.


----------



## Bender (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Why is this ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) calling us haters.
> More like skeptics.
> 
> Shut up.




Exactly same way I feel. All this build-up only for it to be revealed that Tobi was Obito all along is sickening.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 18, 2012)

its certainly seeming like he is the MOST likely candidate now at this point in time. especially with itachi and madara eliminating almost every other option it could have been.

only other possiblity at this point is kagami..........and an advanced zetsu clone. but obito is certainly in first place.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 18, 2012)

its certainly seeming like he is the MOST likely candidate now at this point in time. especially with itachi and madara eliminating almost every other option it could have been.

only other possiblity at this point is kagami..........and an advanced zetsu clone. but obito is certainly in first place.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 18, 2012)

its certainly seeming like he is the MOST likely candidate now at this point in time. especially with itachi and madara eliminating almost every other option it could have been.

only other possiblity at this point is kagami..........and an advanced zetsu clone. but obito is certainly in first place.

and you underestimate how strong one can become with MADARA as a teacher. think he probably taught him insanely advanced powerful techs, and his abandonment caused an emotional trauma that awakend HIS mangekyo which is that insanely overopowered s/t tech.


----------



## Bender (Jul 18, 2012)

^

Like the theory I posted in another thread I think it's Izuna using Obito's body.


----------



## Summers (Jul 18, 2012)

KLNTIME said:


> "Nobody remembers the byakugan anyway."
> 
> This sentence is one of the most sad and discouraging things in the Naruto Universe.  Back in early Naruto (young) Byakugan was said to be as powerful if not more to Sharingan when the whole "eye powers" started.  Lets not forget that the Hyuga (spelling) clan was suppose to be again one of, if not the strongest clans in the Leaf. Hell even the cloud wanted its power and almost started another war in an attempt to obtain it. (Again in the early Naruto)
> 
> ...



The Hyuuga were not wankable enough. Sasuke and Itachi screamed it. They dont have the cool.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

^when Madara made his debut and was suspicious of a certain person, the most likely candidate looked like Izuna and it made sense.

Now Kishi is doing the same thing for Obito, but seriously he is a troll... he's as bad as the makers of Paranormal activity. I mean the fan will go and the cameras will be all creepy like for 5 minutes and you see something. The next night NOTHING HAPPENDS! The next night ITS A JOKE! Kishi rips too much from other sources it's not even funny. The Shinto mythology I can take, that somewhat original in the fact he makes it up himself. But seriously...

it better not be Obito


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

Bender said:


> ^
> 
> Like the theory I posted in another thread I think it's Izuna using Obito's body.



I can be fine with this. as long as Izuna has something to do with it. But simply Obito and Madara clone or whatever is just...


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Kishi better have one helluva an explanation if Tobi turns out to be that weakling Obito who was weaker than the Sasuke that fought Haku. I mean he better have an excuse on top of an explanation on top of it all. Seriously Kishi, be prepared for the shitstorm if this comes to pass, Kishi...


I don't see why people call him a weakling. Yes, he was a bit of a crybaby, but he was by no means weak. He awakened his sharingan with two tomoe and was already skilled at it. I'm sure that meant something.



Bender said:


> Exactly same way I feel. All this build-up only for it to be revealed that Tobi was Obito all along is sickening.


Lol. Sickening? It's honestly hilarious how so many people have such an emotional investment against the theory. TO be honest, it would be "sickening" if Tobi was someone we didn't know that well or at least know the face of that well. Obito is the only Tobi candidate that has actually appeared in more than 2 panels.



Mistshadow said:


> its certainly seeming like he is the MOST likely candidate now at this point in time. especially with itachi and madara eliminating almost every other option it could have been.
> 
> only other possiblity at this point is kagami..........and an advanced zetsu clone. but obito is certainly in first place.


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Jul 18, 2012)

Menshouha said:


> The anime made the Byakugan vision so bad, that you can see only the Chakra canals. If you check the Neji vs Naruto fight or Hinata vs Neji in part one, you can see the face.



Scans for both?


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 18, 2012)

She has as much a chance of recognizing Tobi as she has getting clueless Naruto to realize her feelings.


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> it better not be Obito






Prodigy94 said:


> I can be fine with this. as long as Izuna has something to do with it. But simply Obito and Madara clone or whatever is just...


I don't get why people want Tobi to be Izuna so badly. Do they really want a two-panel, no named, milksop, irrelevant, nerd Uchiha who got his eyes taken by his big bro to be the final villain of the series? Sounds pretty dumb. -.-

Izuna was seen dead in a coffin. The databook said he did in battle after losing his eyes. And Madara said Izuna was dead and all that was left of him was his eyes. And he looked sad while saying it so he was most likely genuine. 

Izuna is absolutely irrelevant. He is not relevant to anyone fighting Tobi in any way, not even Naruto, which would be essential. We've barely seen him so we won't recognize his face. His name wasn't even mentioned in the manga and we had to find it in a databook, which some fans don't even read. He had NO LINES... Must I go on?

Hell, even KAGAMI had ONE line! Kagami would actually make more sense than Izuna though but this latest chapter seems to disprove the Kagami theory as well.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I don't see why people call him a weakling. Yes, he was a bit of a crybaby, but he was by no means weak. He awakened his sharingan with two tomoe and was already skilled at it. I'm sure that meant something.



Sasuke that fought Gaara > prequel Kakashi before sharingan = Sasuke that fought Haku > Obito w/ Sharingan > Obito before awakening Sharingan

Obito before awakening the sharingan was appx Naruto w/o Kyuubi chakra but had fire jutsu which is weaker than even or could barely put up a fight against bell test Sasuke. And that's considering Obito doesn't flinch..

I'd love more than anything else to hear where and how Obito gained his new found power. I mean one doesn't go from part 1 low -mid class to part 3 high tier overnight...


----------



## NO (Jul 18, 2012)

*Tobi is Obito. There is no mind/spirit BS about it.*

With this latest chapter, there seems to be an uprising of people saying "WELL, OKAY...MAYBE he is Obito but it sure as hell isn't his spirit or mind!"

Really? So it's just his body? Come on, let's just cut the BS. There's no way Tobi would just play insults on Guy and Kakashi on a personal level and then it turn out not to be him, in "soul" (however you guys put it). I am not saying that it is definitive proof, however, I'm saying there is no reason for anyone to say "it is Obito's body but not his soul." and the only defense for that ridiculous allocation of thoughts is the whole personality U-turn people can't fathom.

The point is, we _don't_ know why Tobi is motivated to carry out his plan. Can you think of any character with the motivation to place everyone under a genjutsu till the end of time? Exactly. There was Madara, but that is obviously wrong. People were suspicious of Tobi being Madara on day 1, because we already knew what Madara looks like and there is no reason for Tobi to be hiding his mask.

Kishimoto intentionally left that part of Tobi's story a mystery, so when we get the reveal, we get his back story, his motivation, etc. It is not supposed to be all in the box. 

Do you honestly think the minute Tobi takes off his mask and we see his identity, we think "Oh, that makes sense. Let's just carry on with the fight, then"? No, the main characters will ask questions, they will want a backstory, etc. And it obviously has to be a twist. 

That's how it was done with masked Scooby Doo antagonists, that's how it'll be done with Tobi.

well well well well well well well well well well whale wail wale well whale wael well well welle whale welle wale wale wale whale well


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Sasuke that fought Gaara > prequel Kakashi before sharingan = Sasuke that fought Haku > Obito w/ Sharingan > Obito before awakening Sharingan
> 
> Obito before awakening the sharingan was appx Naruto w/o Kyuubi chakra but had fire jutsu which is weaker than even or could barely put up a fight against bell test Sasuke. And that's considering Obito doesn't flinch..
> 
> I'd love more than anything else to hear where and how Obito gained his new found power. I mean one doesn't go from part 1 low -mid class to part 3 high tier overnight...


We haven't seen Obito using his sharingan that much. We don't know how skilled he truly was. 

Besides, obito was a chuunin, a higher rank than Sasuke. he was probably a good ninja, it's just that Kakashi was exceptional and made him look like a fuck up.

And have you sen how powerful characters have become in two years, or even a week? Under Madara's training, I see no reason why Obito could not have been that strong in 2-3 years.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

tobi = obito is perhaps one of the lamest theories, if not the lamest in manga history

lol imagine me taking obito serious.  imagine that real quick


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I don't get why people want Tobi to be Izuna so badly. Do they really want a two-panel, no named, milksop, irrelevant, nerd Uchiha who got his eyes taken by his big bro to be the final villain of the series? Sounds pretty dumb. -.-
> 
> Izuna was seen dead in a coffin. The databook said he did in battle after losing his eyes. And Madara said Izuna was dead and all that was left of him was his eyes. And he looked sad while saying it so he was most likely genuine.
> 
> ...



It would make sense because Izuna sacrificed himself for the Uchiha clan only to have them turn their backs on Izuna's sacrifice. Madara was the ultimate Uchiha, yet people still knew his name and Izuna's as they were equals in every way possible before Izuna gave Madara his eyes. They were both leading the clan, but Madara was it's leader and assuming Izuna was a high if not or second in command of Uchiha. The data book even said that Izuna sacrificed himself or rather his eyes which are sacrificial or rather suicidal for Uchiha. And this act not only made Madara's name infamous because it upgraded his name and his power beyond anything before it, but it also downgraded and made Izuna's reputation go to shit. Izuna would have even more reason for anger because of this. Not to mention Obito was said to have died in the databook as well, so has Shisui, ect and all other Tobi theories.


----------



## Appleofeden (Jul 18, 2012)

When making predictions I try to think of the lamest possible outcome and go with that, that's how these things usually turn out, probably right Tobi is  Obito


----------



## Yasha (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi is Obito from Edoras.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 18, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> It would make sense because Izuna sacrificed himself for the Uchiha clan only to have them turn their backs on Izuna's sacrifice. Madara was the ultimate Uchiha, yet people still knew his name and Izuna's as they were equals in every way possible before Izuna gave Madara his eyes. They were both leading the clan, but Madara was it's leader and assuming Izuna was a high if not or second in command of Uchiha. The data book even said that Izuna sacrificed himself or rather his eyes which are sacrificial or rather suicidal for Uchiha. And this act not only made Madara's name infamous because it upgraded his name and his power beyond anything before it, but it also downgraded and made Izuna's reputation go to shit. Izuna would have even more reason for anger because of this. Not to mention Obito was said to have died in the databook as well, so has Shisui, ect and all other Tobi theories.



databook= shit


please learn that


----------



## Kool-Aid (Jul 18, 2012)

I don't care if it is Obito or not, but the butt devastation if it is will be great.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> We haven't seen Obito using his sharingan that much. We don't know how skilled he truly was.
> 
> Besides, obito was a chuunin, a higher rank than Sasuke. he was probably a good ninja, it's just that Kakashi was exceptional and made him look like a fuck up.
> 
> And have you sen how powerful characters have become in two years, or even a week? Under Madara's training, I see no reason why Obito could not have been that strong in 2-3 years.



Sasuke was a genin and said to be easily chunin ranked during the exams meaning that has NOTHING to do with powerscaling. Because Naruto and Sasuke are still both genin and they easily outclass some if not most of the Kages.

Kakashi made Obito look bad like Sasuke made Naruto look bad. The parallel is quite huge in that regard. As both Naruto and Obito have had flinching problems but Obito didn't have Naruto's chakra capacity. Sure an Uchiha's capability is boundless yet it goes without saying he would be outclassed by wave arc Sasuke and destroyed by the chunin exam invasion Sasuke.

At least though Sasuke had a well built upon base, Obito did not.


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> It would make sense because Izuna sacrificed himself for the Uchiha clan only to have them turn their backs on Izuna's sacrifice. Madara was the ultimate Uchiha, yet people still knew his name and Izuna's as they were equals in every way possible before Izuna gave Madara his eyes. They were both leading the clan, but Madara was it's leader and assuming Izuna was a high if not or second in command of Uchiha. The data book even said that Izuna sacrificed himself or rather his eyes which are sacrificial or rather suicidal for Uchiha. And this act not only made Madara's name infamous because it upgraded his name and his power beyond anything before it, but it also downgraded and made Izuna's reputation go to shit. Izuna would have even more reason for anger because of this. Not to mention Obito was said to have died in the databook as well, so has Shisui, ect and all other Tobi theories.


That doesn't really matter...  -__-  He just doesn't fit. We wouldn't recognize him. It does not work. It's either Obito or Kagami. This chapter strongly goes against the Kagami theory though, so I'd say that theory's about disproven. Tobi being Izuna just doesn't make sense. I can't stress this enough. And no, I'm not just against this because I'm a strong supporter of the Obito theory. I really don't see the logic in this theory. Sure, you've got a point that the databoook only contains what we're supposed to believe at the time, but that doesn't change the other 2 confirmations of Izuna's death in the manga. You know, perhaps, instead of Izuna, I should juy call him _____ from now on.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

son_michael said:


> databook= shit
> 
> 
> please learn that



that took away how much of my post exactly? address the entirety, otherwise don't highlight it in it's entirety. seriously


----------



## Kool-Aid (Jul 18, 2012)

Tobi is Rin


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Sorry if my "hater" comment offended you. I got a little carried away, lol.
> 
> Anyway, Kishi is practically feeding you clues, and you're still against it. It's really sad that you'll only understand once the mask comes off. Next thing you know, Tobi will be revealed to be Obito and you'll think it's a fake chapter.



he aint feeding any clues, because tobi's reveal would be anticlimatic. u just looking to hard into things that they somehow seem like clues to u and ur buddies. all of sudden everything become a clue


----------



## Lurko (Jul 18, 2012)

Someone with a brain.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 18, 2012)

ppl who are calling obito weak are idiots. keep in mind during this time between his 'death' and appearance for kyuubi attack, he was already a chuunin at a young age, became TRAINED by MADARA, you know, the strongest uchiha of all time who is messing around with 5 kages, and who knows the entire truth of the RS so he could probably give him some sharingan secrets, PROBABLY unlocked his MS which is that s/t teleportation jutsu that is inasnely op with its intangibility enhancement too.

why is it so hard to believe that it isn't obito?

its similar to kakashi's ms, he ragged on gai like he knew him, ragged on kakashi like he knows his mistakes, knows his jutsu's, obviously his body isn't normal, he IS persistent with the mask, list of reasons goes on.

and i knocked izuna off the list because madara saying how he sacrificed his brother puts a hole in it imo. i had a pretty big list but now obito is most likely and at the top. kagami is a 2nd. everyone else is very very narrow on it.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> That doesn't really matter...  -__-  He just doesn't fit. We wouldn't recognize him. It does not work. It's either Obito or Kagami. This chapter strongly goes against the Kagami theory though, so I'd say that theory's about disproven. Tobi being Izuna just doesn't make sense. I can't stress this enough. And no, I'm not just against this because I'm a strong supporter of the Obito theory. I really don't see the logic in this theory. Sure, you've got a point that the databoook only contains what we're supposed to believe at the time, but that doesn't change the other 2 confirmations of Izuna's death in the manga. You know, perhaps, instead of Izuna, I should juy call him _____ from now on.



Everyone thought Obito was Madara all along. Sasuke is just finding out that was all a lie. Tobi's character is all based off of a lie. So Madara being in cordinance with Obito makes as much sense as us not knowing that Izuna could have been around Konoha under the radar? I mean height alone... actually the databook has Tobi and Izuna the exact same heights and one lb difference in weight. That's something noteworthy...

but that aside Izuna's death could've been covered up. Hell Madara's death was covered up only for others to speculate who the real akatsuki leader was. Not to mention that it was later revealed that Madara was pretending to be Madara when infact Madara was dead all along. Confirmations in this manga is to be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Sasuke was a genin and said to be easily chunin ranked during the exams meaning that has NOTHING to do with powerscaling. Because Naruto and Sasuke are still both genin and they easily outclass some if not most of the Kages.
> 
> Kakashi made Obito look bad like Sasuke made Naruto look bad. The parallel is quite huge in that regard. As both Naruto and Obito have had flinching problems but Obito didn't have Naruto's chakra capacity. Sure an Uchiha's capability is boundless yet it goes without saying he would be outclassed by wave arc Sasuke and destroyed by the chunin exam invasion Sasuke.
> 
> At least though Sasuke had a well built upon base, Obito did not.


You're forgetting that Obito had enormous potential(Mangekyou Sharingan). Being trained by Madara, he could have learned how to use it very fast. I mean, it's eye powers, not that hard to master. Besides, Tobi doesn't exactly do anything else. So, it's not that hard.

Tha parallel between Obito and Naruto is important. An evil Obito would be an exact opposite to Naruto and thus be a fitting final villain. I don't see why people have such a problem with this.


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> he aint feeding any clues, because tobi's reveal would be anticlimatic. u just looking to hard into things that they somehow seem like clues to u and ur buddies. all of sudden everything become a clue


Of course he's giving out clues. If he didn't give ANY clues at all, then that would just be dumb. There is no way we are over analyzing something that is blatantly obvious.

Before you accuse anyone of over analyzing, you should realize that you don't analyze shit.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> *ppl who are calling obito weak are idiots. keep in mind during this time between his 'death' and appearance for kyuubi attack, he was already a chuunin at a young age,* became TRAINED by MADARA, you know, the strongest uchiha of all time who is messing around with 5 kages, and who knows the entire truth of the RS so he could probably give him some sharingan secrets, PROBABLY unlocked his MS which is that s/t teleportation jutsu that is inasnely op with its intangibility enhancement too.



Shikamaru was also a chunin but alone he was a weakling, just smart. Sasuke and Naruto are still genin and they're making kages look like shit comparatively 

Sasuke was trained by Orochimaru but at least Orochimaru saw Sasuke's potential. Where exactly was Obito's before sharingan? after sharingan all he was able to do was strike an enemy invisible to the regular eye. big whoop. Obito was weaker than Sasuke not to mention that Sasuke during the chunin exams was said by one of the proctors to have easily been chunin ranked. Status in the narutoverse means nothing unless one has military or political power.

The same truths can be said of Izuna where everything we once considered 'confirmed' now has no real bearing to it;s definition.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Of course he's giving out clues. If he didn't give ANY clues at all, then that would just be dumb. There is no way we are over analyzing something that is blatantly obvious.
> 
> Before you accuse anyone of over analyzing, you should realize that you don't analyze shit.



obito's *timeline *makes no sense for him to be tobi. thats all i need to know it isnt him


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You're forgetting that Obito had enormous potential(Mangekyou Sharingan). Being trained by Madara, he could have learned how to use it very fast. I mean, it's eye powers, not that hard to master. Besides, Tobi doesn't exactly do anything else. So, it's not that hard.
> 
> Tha parallel between Obito and Naruto is important. An evil Obito would be an exact opposite to Naruto and thus be a fitting final villain. I don't see why people have such a problem with this.



Obito hadn't even mastered the Sharingan.. and when he got his chance a rock crushed half his body. And the other half he gave his sharingan to Kakashi. Madara would of had to save his body in super crazy clutch situation and keep it alive long enough to give him a chance at living. He would've had to give him someone else's sharingan meaning the chance for potential MS is lost. Not to mention Tobi hasn't even shown MS as of yet. He's shown haxx sharingan which also needs serious explaining on Kishi's part. Not to mention upgrading the sharingan comes with experience or rather near death experiences or in states of extreme danger.

The only way I could see Obito'd body being intact is if somehow Zetsu pulls out Obitos body right before it collapsed and Madara inserted in it Hashirama's cells to make his body stronger. But after that is where the imagination takes over and logic is gone...


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> Obito's *timeline* doesn't make any sense if he is Tobi. Thats all I need to know it isnt him.


There aren't really any timeline problems with the Obito theory.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You're forgetting that Obito had enormous potential(Mangekyou Sharingan). Being trained by Madara, he could have learned how to use it very fast. I mean, it's eye powers, not that hard to master. Besides, Tobi doesn't exactly do anything else. So, it's not that hard.
> 
> Tha parallel between Obito and Naruto is important. An evil Obito would be an exact opposite to Naruto and thus be a fitting final villain. I don't see why people have such a problem with this.



People only have a problem with it because Tobi would be who THEY want him to be.


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Jul 18, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Why is this ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) calling us haters.



Not... sure if serious...

And lol @ calling anti-tobito people 'skeptics.'  Skeptics would not assert that he is IZUNA either, which many people in this thread are doing, and ALL of you are being overemotional and allowing your biases to lead you to the reasoning you come up with.

The only 'rational' position to take is, "I dunno, he could be.  I guess I'll wait and see."


----------



## Rapidus (Jul 18, 2012)

After finally catching up, I have got much of my original interest in the series back. There are several hints that give the indication that Obito=Tobi, but their..what's the word? Obvious? Yeah, their too obvious. Kishimoto is the master troll. It would be too easy to assume that Tobi is Obito. However, I wouldn't deem it the worst thing if Tobi is Obito. I actually think it would be pretty interesting. By that, I mean it would be pretty interesting to find out why Obito chose this path. 

Just let the record state that Obito could or could not be Tobi. We shall find out this month, I believe.


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

*@Rapidus Procella:* Kishi is actually pretty obvious, lol. Like how everyone knew Minato was Naruto's father.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> There aren't really any timeline problems with the Obito theory.



sure they are. u think obito was 14 when he fought minato? u also think a 14 year old (who was considered major fail by uchiha standards) is so knowledged and powerful he infiltrates konoha with ez, takes control of the kyuubi and fights minato on equal foot?


----------



## daschysta (Jul 18, 2012)

Rapidus Procella said:


> After finally catching up, I have got much of my original interest in the series back. There are several hints that give the indication that Obito=Tobi, but their..what's the word? Obvious? Yeah, their too obvious. Kishimoto is the master troll. It would be too easy to assume that Tobi is Obito. However, I wouldn't deem it the worst thing if Tobi is Obito. I actually think it would be pretty interesting. By that, I mean it would be pretty interesting to find out why Obito chose this path.
> 
> Just let the record state that Obito could or could not be Tobi. We shall find out this month, I believe.



Kishi tends to actually be pretty blunt, he can troll in certain things, but when it comes to twists or mysteries he is usually pretty obvious. Everyone could call Minato being naruto's father, the identity of pein etc...


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 18, 2012)

Rapidus Procella said:


> A*fter finally catching up, I have got much of my original interest in the series back. There are several hints that give the indication that Obito=Tobi, but their..what's the word? Obvious? Yeah, their too obvious. Kishimoto is the master troll. It would be too easy to assume that Tobi is Obito.* However, I wouldn't deem it the worst thing if Tobi is Obito. I actually think it would be pretty interesting. By that, I mean it would be pretty interesting to find out why Obito chose this path.
> 
> Just let the record state that Obito could or could not be Tobi. We shall find out this month, I believe.



Maybe if Minato was Naruto's son from the future as opposed to his father I'd agree, but Kishimoto has the talent of deluding himself into thinking that obvious hints are in fact, well-concealed forshadowings. This is the guy that spent chapter upon chapter telling us that Nagato was Pain with all but words yet still bothered with a reveal chapter.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

Gaawa-chan said:


> Not... sure if serious...
> 
> And lol @ calling anti-tobito people 'skeptics.'  Skeptics would not assert that he is IZUNA either, which many people in this thread are doing, and ALL of you are being overemotional and allowing your biases to lead you to the reasoning you come up with.
> 
> The only 'rational' position to take is, "I dunno, he could be.  I guess I'll wait and see."



I get the feeling I'm being looked at by this post... seriously I am no Obito - Tobi skeptic. I hate the thought of it, I can accept it if it does happen. But for now I hate the idea of this weakling Uchiha turning out to be the FV, I mean no not even... which is why Kishi needs some serious in dept well thought out balls to the wall explanation on everything from how Obito survived down to the little details like why he turned evil, his sharingan, how he knows Madara. 

This is all like Sensui being forced to watch the demon torture video and going from 'spirit detective' to 'fuck you I'm gonna do me, you guys are evil' type of shit


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> Sure there are. Do you think Obito was 14(not to mention a fail Uchiha) when he fought Minato? Do you also think a 14 year old could be so knowledged and powerful that he could infiltrate konoha with ease, take control of Kurama and fight Minato on equal foot?


This is in no way a timeline issue. Firstly, there's no way Obito couldn't have been that tall at 15-16. Now that that's out of the way, infiltrating Konoha is no problem when you can stay intangible. And, fighting Minato on equal foot? All he used were eye techniques and chains, which wouldn't be that hard to use. And then he got Rasenpwned by Minato. So, yes, it's perfectly possible that Obito could have done all of that. And, Obito was not as weak as people seem to think.


----------



## King Scoop (Jul 18, 2012)

No one cares about Izuna, Obito has to be Tobi. It's the only thing that makes sense. Like the fact that both of Kakashi's and Tobi's Sharingan's can warp to another dimension. Madara probably found him, twisted his mind and powered up his body with Zetsu parts. It was probably 2+ years between Kakashi Gaiden and the Kyuubi attack.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> This is in no way a timeline issue. Firstly, there's no way Obito couldn't have been that tall at 15-16. Now that that's out of the way, infiltrating Konoha is no problem when you can stay intangible. And, fighting Minato on equal foot? All he used were eye techniques and chains, which wouldn't be that hard to use. And then he got Rasenpwned by Minato. So, yes, it's perfectly possible that Obito could have done all of that. And, Obito was not as weak as people seem to think.



its not about obito's height. im saying u think he was 14 years old when he fought minato?

 what tobi did that night was considered something only madara could do, and his power was said to be "unfathomable". at 14 i find it VERY HARD to believe he could do all that. even mastering the sharingan to that lvl should take time and skill (especially if you considered the lvl obito was at) he was not your daily uchiha itachi.

plus do you get the vibe he was 14 years old judging his speeches, and the view he has on the world/people. does calling konan "a child" make sense to you? he's obviously older than kakashi, WAY OLDER


----------



## NW (Jul 18, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> I get the feeling I'm being looked at by this post... seriously I am no Obito - Tobi skeptic. I hate the thought of it, I can accept it if it does happen. But for now I hate the idea of this weakling Uchiha turning out to be the FV, I mean no not even... which is why Kishi needs some serious in dept well thought out balls to the wall explanation on everything from how Obito survived down to the little details like why he turned evil, his sharingan, how he knows Madara.
> 
> This is all like Sensui being forced to watch the demon torture video and going from 'spirit detective' to 'fuck you I'm gonna do me, you guys are evil' type of shit


His sharingan is obviously his. You know, the one that survived the boulder. It's not a stretch to say that it survived. I'm not sure how many times I have to state this but Obito was not weak, at least not for his age. Him being the final villain makes perfect sense. He's the only Tobi candidate that can parallel Naruto.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 18, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> its not about obito's height. im saying u think he was 14 years old when he fought minato?
> 
> what tobi did that night was considered unfathomable. at 14 i find it VERY HARD to believe he could do all that. even mastering the sharingan to that lvl should take time and skill (especially if you considered the lvl obito was at)
> he was not your daily uchiha itachi



Ignoring that the beast Madara would have been his teacher, consider the neargodtier stuff Sasuke and Naruto (mostly Naruto) do on a daily basis. Have you forgotten that this chapter is a about three years from the first chapter. In that amount of time Naruto has actually befriended Kyuubi. Besides, Tobi never has been shown to be op'ed. He's always used other people and his spatial slip powers.

It stands to reason that part of Madara and Zetsu's power resides in him.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

Descent of the Lion said:


> Ignoring that the beast Madara would have been his teacher, consider the neargodtier stuff Sasuke and Naruto (mostly Naruto) on a daily basis. Besides, Tobi never has been shown to be op'd. He's always used other people and his spatial slip powers.



tobi is OP. he got izanagi, incredible spacetime jutsu that beats the 4th, serious knowledge on every clan and seems to know a lot of history. doesnt matter who your teacher is, obito as the student was a very poor one

sorry dawg. he aint kakashi's age. calling konan a mere child... lol please


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 18, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Shikamaru was also a chunin but alone he was a weakling, just smart. Sasuke and Naruto are still genin and they're making kages look like shit comparatively
> 
> Sasuke was trained by Orochimaru but at least Orochimaru saw Sasuke's potential. Where exactly was Obito's before sharingan? after sharingan all he was able to do was strike an enemy invisible to the regular eye. big whoop. Obito was weaker than Sasuke not to mention that Sasuke during the chunin exams was said by one of the proctors to have easily been chunin ranked. Status in the narutoverse means nothing unless one has military or political power.
> 
> The same truths can be said of Izuna where everything we once considered 'confirmed' now has no real bearing to it;s definition.


point remains, he got where he was without a sharingan, AT AGE 11, and everyone knows sharingan=instant powerup
he wasn't fodder, he lived during a time of war



T-Bag said:


> obito's *timeline *makes no sense for him to be tobi. thats all i need to know it isnt him


prove it



T-Bag said:


> sure they are. u think obito was 14 when he fought minato? u also think a 14 year old (who was considered major fail by uchiha standards) is so knowledged and powerful he infiltrates konoha with ez, takes control of the kyuubi and fights minato on equal foot?



one phrase "trained by madara, hax mangekyo jutsu, s/t, intangibility"

14 year olds being strong? no way, not like some of the strongest inthe series atm are 15-16...............

cry more please, its a possibility, and for now its the largest and most likely one.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> prove it
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i did prove it. where were you? the possibility is as high as me shooting obama tomorrow


----------



## KAKASHI10 (Jul 18, 2012)

I honestly do not kknow WHY THE FUCK  people are still talking about Tobi identity. 
I tought it was clear that tobi was the guy that sells the icha icha to KAKASHI.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 18, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> tobi is OP. he got izanagi, incredible spacetime jutsu that beats the 4th, serious knowledge on every clan and seems to know a lot of history. doesnt matter who your teacher is, obito as the student was a very poor one
> 
> sorry dawg. he aint kakashi's age. calling konan a mere child... lol please



First of all you're assuming he'd be in the same state of mind he was in when he got crushed by a rock.

Anyway, Izanagi comes from research, an eyeball collection and Hashirama DNA; spacetime jutsu comes from his natural ability, I can assume, which is why he never replaced his right eye; history can be read. (Why would you pretend to be an 100 year old shinobi and NOT do research?)

Tobi's powers come from preparation. And who said he had Izanagi when he fought the fourth?


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 18, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> i did prove it. where were you? the possibility is as high as me shooting obama tomorrow



I would enjoy that, but no you didnt PROVE anything, go get a definition you just put in obstacles.

and those obstacles are EASILY nullified.

A: infiltrate konoha, easy for any former konoha nin. As demonstrated by Itachi and Orochimaru. Not so much for Pein. Also knowledge gained from Madara one of the FOUNDERS who would know how which is why minato instantly thought of him.

B: Sharingan with only ONE of the eyes actually being his, on the side that was COVERED by a boulder. Body is all messed up, zetsu goo repairs from the boulder rockslide damage.

C: takes control of kyuubi is something special you gain from getting the MS, he went through emotional turmoil being 'left for dead' so possibly gained it, and trained by the guy who made the kyuubi his DOG, isn't rediculous, look what sasuke learned from orochimaru who doesn't even have a sharingan, to suppress some of the kyuubi chakra.

D: fights his former TEACHER on equal footing, still got his ass kicked, and only used his s/t and intangibility jutsu the whole time which essentially has made him unhittable by every opponent he has gone against so far in the series. practice that for 2 years along with having prediction of sharingan and trained by someone as poewrful as madara, then its not crazy for him to fight against minato.


go on, i said PROOF of timeline issue, there is not a single one.

ur being an ignorant trash bag who can't admit in a POSSIBILITY.


----------



## tupadre97 (Jul 18, 2012)

Really? So Obito was controlling the 4th mizukage? Dumbass


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I would enjoy that, but no you didnt PROVE anything, go get a definition you just put in obstacles.
> 
> and those obstacles are EASILY nullified.
> 
> ...



here's how i negate all that with one line from tobi (to kakashi) without resorting to the common counters to your theory

"ill play with you *children *some other time"

if obito and kakashi are the same age. do u rly think he'd be talking to kakashi and konan like if they were children? 

dont make me laugh yo. obito theory is beyond bad, i dont got a word to explain it. i cant even take u srsly anymore


----------



## KAKASHI10 (Jul 18, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> i did prove it. where were you? the possibility is as high as me shooting obama tomorrow



You do know they have something called secret services and they might even check you out because if that stupid comment


----------



## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 18, 2012)

*Just Accept Tobi is Obito Already*

Why else would Kakashi be there? Its a plot device. Kakashi didn't even take part againts Pain when Naruto fought him, and Tobi seems to know everything about Kakashi. His Kamui, his whole life, and now he also knows Gai. Its pretty obvious its him.

Madara is elsewhere, and no one else knows Kakashi & Gai, not Madara who was long dead.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

my comment is as stupid as the obito theory. my point


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 18, 2012)

If Tobi is Obito I'm sure he killed Rin to gain MS.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

Descent of the Lion said:


> If Tobi is Obito I'm sure he killed Rin to gain MS.



his sharingan got crushed. his entire right side was crushed from top to bottom


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Jul 18, 2012)

And people wonder why I'm not as active on NF as I used to be.


----------



## Austin (Jul 18, 2012)

*I know who tobi is....*

Tobi is Rin................ 


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Klue (Jul 18, 2012)

Yes, the writing is on the wall, but how does it all make sense?


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 18, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> his sharingan got crushed. his entire right side was crushed from top to bottom



did you see it? just his comment, but he was hit by a boulder on death's bed, not something you can just take for granted. it was said orochimaru was dead. it was said madara was tobi. can't see it can't believe it.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

i cant accept theories made by 10 year olds just because their hair looks the smae


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 18, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> his sharingan got crushed. his entire right side was crushed from top to bottom



You don't know that. The rock could have all sorts of pits and faults that could have spared his eye. He was able to talk which means that his jaw wasn't broken.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 18, 2012)

I have never been more interested in Tobi's body.


----------



## daschysta (Jul 18, 2012)

As if that is the only basis for it. You're blunt if you can't pick up on the blatant hints, they aren't subtle at all.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> did you see it? just his comment, but he was hit by a boulder on death's bed, not something you can just take for granted. it was said orochimaru was dead. it was said madara was tobi. can't see it can't believe it.



even if he survived, it makes no sense. tobi is obviously someone older than kakashi and gai

tobi even worked with madara sometime when nagato was just an infant.. u telling me obito is that old? what.. are u forreal or u joking?


----------



## Austin (Jul 18, 2012)

right?


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 18, 2012)

There's a reason Tobi has a mask and won't remove it.

With the Mask, he becomes No One.

Without the Mask, he becomes *Insert Background Character That We'll Recognize Here*

That's why to me it's Obito's face at the very least. Anything else is just moronic, and makes the entire reveal pointless. It has to be something shocking to the reader and the characters within the story.

Izuna Uchiha doesn't really carry that weight for the Readers, and it's unknown how largely he was known in the story. 

Shisui's physically simply doesn't match up. Itachi would have known if it was him.

It's also highly, highly possible Tobi's left eye (The Sharingan Eye) is his original eye. He sacrificed the eye(s) in his right side to perform Izangini against Konan, and replaced it with Rinn'egan.

His Warping ability, which looks very much like Kakashi's Kamui ability, originates from his left Eye. He told Kakashi not to bother wasting chakra by Kamui'ing him, as it wouldn't work. Tobi has scars on the left side of his face, where the Rock crushed Obito, but nothing on the right side.

At this point, it's almost very definitely Obito's body at the very least.

Sorry, accept it.

There are numerous ways for Obito to survive that last rock fall. Zetsu has the ability to meld into the ground. Tobi himself has the ability to go intangible or warp. Who's to say Obito didn't unlock his Warping ability just before the second rock-slide?

This gives him plenty of time to train it's uses. It also makes Kakashi unlocking MS that much more probable. The MS was already unlocked by Obito.

So Kakashi and his MS needs to be explained (Kishimoto said he'd reveal it) Rin's story needs to be revealed. It opens the door for Zetsu backstory (We know nothing of the Black half)

There's a reason Kakashi is present at this point against Tobi.


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Jul 18, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> i cant accept theories made by 10 year olds just because their hair looks the smae



Well, that's a strawman if I've  ever seen one.  Also... er... *Eyes Minato, Naruto's father*  Hmm...


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 18, 2012)

Gaawa-chan said:


> Well, that's a strawman if I've  ever seen one.  Also... er... *Eyes Minato, Naruto's father*  Hmm...



i never knew kishi kept it such a secret


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

King Scoop said:


> No one cares about Izuna, Obito has to be Tobi. It's the only thing that makes sense. Like the fact that both of Kakashi's and Tobi's Sharingan's can warp to another dimension. Madara probably found him, twisted his mind and powered up his body with Zetsu parts. It was probably 2+ years between Kakashi Gaiden and the Kyuubi attack.



Don't know whether your taking bout in manga or not but just no. Izuna was Madara's equal had a reason that being vengance. He literally gave everything. He became a no body to his older brother Madara. That much is understood. Izuna once had everything and then one day he had lost everything. Kakashi and Tobi's sharingan don't even work exactly the same way. They have similar end results but opposite functions. Not to mention he was crushed (his other sharingan) and he gave Kakashi his sharingan. Unless some crazy Izanami or Izanagi shit went down there, the logic is flawed.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> His sharingan is obviously his. You know, the one that survived the boulder. It's not a stretch to say that it survived. I'm not sure how many times I have to state this but Obito was not weak, at least not for his age. Him being the final villain makes perfect sense. He's the only Tobi candidate that can parallel Naruto.



He can parallel him sure. But there is nothing to suggest that the boulder didn't crush his other eye. If you can show me the panel I'll concede on this but otherwise his right side of his body was crushed (sharingan included). The chunin excuse is weak for so many reasons, I really don't want to have to list them again...



Mistshadow said:


> point remains, he got where he was without a sharingan, AT AGE 11, and everyone knows sharingan=instant powerup
> he wasn't fodder, he lived during a time of war



And? Konohamaru lives in a state of war, is he now strong because of it? He was a chunin? Sasuke and Naruto are both genin and are capable of easily outclassing the current kage. Tenten and Ino are also chunin, what's so impressive about them? Rasengan is an instant power up for konohamaru albeit sharingan moreso. but the point remains age and status mean nothing in this manga really. Obito is Uchiha fodder.

That quote a genius is considered average amongst Uchiha. It doesn't apply to Obito, because he was below average among Uchiha.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 18, 2012)

Pretty much. No one else makes sense.

It can't be a new character, as Tobi himself is holding onto that mask pretty tightly.

Don't be shocked to find out Rin's death played a great deal of importance in Tobi's creation.

Zetsu used his record ability to record Madara. Zetsu saves Obito from death. Obito becomes brainwashed by Zetsu and the recording of Madara. Obito takes on Madara's name along with his memories (That Madara had Zetsu record). He moves forward with Madara's plan.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 18, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> There's a reason Tobi has a mask and won't remove it.
> 
> With the Mask, he becomes No One.
> 
> ...


Thank you for being logical and reasonable. +reps


----------



## AoshiKun (Jul 18, 2012)

*Spoiler*: _My answer_ 
























But could be


----------



## Raiden (Jul 18, 2012)

You're making a big assumption in saying that Gai has seen Tobi. You don't know if it wasn't just a dig at Gai's failure to remember people...as in, "You wouldn't remember me even if I told you who I was." Or Something.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 18, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> And? Konohamaru lives in a state of war, is he now strong because of it? He was a chunin? Sasuke and Naruto are both genin and are capable of easily outclassing the current kage. Tenten and Ino are also chunin, what's so impressive about them? Rasengan is an instant power up for konohamaru albeit sharingan moreso. but the point remains age and status mean nothing in this manga really. Obito is Uchiha fodder.
> 
> That quote a genius is considered average amongst Uchiha. It doesn't apply to Obito, because he was below average among Uchiha.



obito was considered below average because he hadn't awoken an sharingan and was freaking 13 years old. he was still a good ninja by any means, and was considered a 'man' with the fireball jutsu. uchiha become considered genius because of their sharingan being unlocked gives them so many doors opened.


naruto at first wasn't considered a genius. but now he sure damn well is in a way. 
naruto trained by supergenius jiraiya=amazing
was able to match his sensei kakashi

sasuke trained by supergenius orochimaru=amazing
was able to match his sensei kakashi

obito trained by supergenius madara=amazing? possible, think of it like him having his own special time skip and being able to match his sensei.

keep in mind i was careful to say MATCH (keep up with), and not BEAT.


----------



## Delicious (Jul 18, 2012)

Where are her boobs though?


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 18, 2012)

Come on, do we need to see Sakura naked to believe she is a girl?


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 18, 2012)

Obito (Tobi) held a grudge and hatred for Minato for his failure to protect Rin.

His hatred for Konoha grew because of War.

This is why he targeted Minato and his Family.

Kakashi was alone. He had no one. Obito probably pitied him more than hated him. Hence his comment this chapter.

Tobi is another Pain. The Shinobi system created the both of them.


----------



## bigahole (Jul 18, 2012)

any way possible that hes the six sage's son?


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 18, 2012)




----------



## Kyuubi Naruto (Jul 18, 2012)

If it's Obito I wouldn't be surprised if anything it makes more sense than it being someone new no one knows about. I expect it to be Obito as much as people dislike the theory.


----------



## Austin (Jul 18, 2012)

bigahole said:


> any way possible that hes the six sage's son?



doubt it.


----------



## Austin (Jul 18, 2012)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> Come on, do we need to see Sakura naked to believe she is a girl?



this.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> obito was considered below average because he hadn't awoken an sharingan and was freaking 13 years old. he was still a good ninja by any means, and was considered a 'man' with the fireball jutsu. uchiha become considered genius because of their sharingan being unlocked gives them so many doors opened.
> 
> 
> *naruto at first wasn't considered a genius. but now he sure damn well is in a way.
> ...



Sasuke was considered the AVERAGE Uchiha. Someone that flinches in battle to the extent that Obito did and even had to make an excuse why is not a genius and has small potential for self explanitory reasons. You don't see part 1 Sasuke flinching against the water posion brothers. Hell I don't even think Obito was calculative with weaponry and Uchiha specialize in that department. Fireball jutsu is common and the upbringing for Uchiha, nothing exceptional. 

and no, no, no, NO! Naruto and Jiriaya weren't even close to what anyone would call geniuses. They were failures who rose above themselves that is all. Perhaps, Obito would have needed beyond Orochimaru's help with his poor showings. At least Sasuke and Naruto's basic taijutsu ability was somewhat acceptable... but Obito, probably why Tobi's CQC skills really do suck and why he's always had to rely of s/t jutsu in order to compete with even shinobi who were slightly above average in that regard.

Naruto was only able to match Kakashi around sennin training. When he learned RS, his skill was still below Kakashi's let alone intelligence in combat. The only reason way he was able to compete with Kakashi was in raw power. 

Sasuke beat Orochimaru because, well the manga tells that reason. Obito being around Minato is somewhat plausible, but really he was destroyed, quite easily. Those arguments were counter productive though I get what I think your trying to say.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 18, 2012)

why was he talking as if they had never met before when fighting minato?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> why was he talking as if they had never met before when fighting minato?



He called Minato by name, if anything he was acting rather familiar with him.


----------



## Eros (Jul 19, 2012)

Even 6 months ago I didn't believe that Tobi was Obito, but now it seems pretty fucking obvious. Who else could it be? It's obviously not Madara or any of the other dead guys. The only reason I didn't think it was him had more to do with how he was supposed to be dead. Then again, there have been some amazing medi nins in the series. I just wonder which one nursed him back to health.


----------



## LesExit (Jul 19, 2012)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> Come on, do we need to see Sakura naked to believe she is a girl?


.....


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 19, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Sasuke was considered the AVERAGE Uchiha. Someone that flinches in battle to the extent that Obito did and even had to make an excuse why is not a genius and has small potential for self explanitory reasons. You don't see part 1 Sasuke flinching against the water posion brothers. Hell I don't even think Obito was calculative with weaponry and Uchiha specialize in that department. Fireball jutsu is common and the upbringing for Uchiha, nothing exceptional.
> 
> and no, no, no, NO! Naruto and Jiriaya weren't even close to what anyone would call geniuses. They were failures who rose above themselves that is all. Perhaps, Obito would have needed beyond Orochimaru's help with his poor showings. At least Sasuke and Naruto's basic taijutsu ability was somewhat acceptable... but Obito, probably why Tobi's CQC skills really do suck and why he's always had to rely of s/t jutsu in order to compete with even shinobi who were slightly above average in that regard.
> 
> ...



I meant after training with oro he could match kakashi for sasuke.


and  I'm done talking with you, you are as closed and narrow minded as T Bag, I'm offering up a possibility, and you saying its IMPOSSIBLE is awful. go learn to educate yourself and learn how to make valid arguments.
leave the thread, you offer nothing useful.

edit: sorry my tone isn't directed at you, its the irritation im getting at the ignorance of T Bag


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

Uzumaki Timu said:


> Even 6 months ago I didn't believe that Tobi was Obito, but now it seems pretty fucking obvious. Who else could it be? It's obviously not Madara or any of the other dead guys. The only reason I didn't think it was him had more to do with how he was supposed to be dead. Then again, there have been some amazing medi nins in the series. I just wonder which one nursed him back to health.



Zetsu. Tobi's body is made out of metal and Zetsu goo.

Remember the bolts


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 19, 2012)

No, I won't believe it. The Obito theory makes no sense whatsoever. Tobi might only have the body of Obito. But that's all.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> No, I won't believe it. The Obito theory makes no sense whatsoever. Tobi might only have the body of Obito. But that's all.



I'll never understand how people can accept it being his body but not actually being him.


----------



## Raiden (Jul 19, 2012)

I don't think Tobi is Obito. All of the power players on the villain's end have been old people. Perhaps posters are right in saying that someone did a soul transfer esque technique and is using his body for Uchiha DNA.

But the theory itself has a critical problem. If Obito knew Kakashi lived a life of regret, why did he himself become bitter? He died for his village and didn't seem regretful at the time. His sensei also sacrificed himself. Kakashi, not to mention the village itself, were always there, so it wasn't like he had a reason to slip into vanity.


----------



## Delicious (Jul 19, 2012)




----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 19, 2012)

brain washing is one hell of a thing bro.

especially in a world of genjutsu's and sharingans

edit: my argument is in a world where ninjas have displayed the ability to advance in very little time, its  not an impossibility to say he became strong enough to do what tobi has did.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 19, 2012)

tupadre97 said:


> Really? So Obito was controlling the 4th mizukage? Dumbass



It's not impossible, and I think it's plausible, given the hints we currently have. The theory is fine as far as age goes: Tobi was perhaps in his early 20s or late teens when he started taking control of the 4th Mizukage and approached Kisame. After all, his peer, Kakashi, is only around 2 years younger than Kisame. As far as the hair goes, he simply could have grown it in the same fashion as Madara's.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Raiden said:


> But the theory itself has a critical problem. If Obito knew Kakashi lived a life of regret, why did he himself become bitter?



Because he had a shitty life himself?



> He died for his village and didn't seem regretful at the time.



He actually had a lot of regrets when he "died", chiefly not being able to spend more time with his team and not being able to admit his feelings to Rin.



> His sensei also sacrificed himself. Kakashi, not to mention the village itself, were always there, so it wasn't like he had a reason to slip into vanity.



It's pretty clear that circumstances prevented him from simply returning to Konoha.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> edit: sorry my tone isn't directed at you, its the irritation im getting at the ignorance of T Bag



what?

so me presenting facts to shit on a bullshit theory is ignorance?

okay... this is news to me (peter griffin voice)


----------



## Marik Swift (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi is the sage's wife.


----------



## RevPhelps (Jul 19, 2012)

Can I point something out? There are flaws to EVERY Tobi theory. _Something _is going to have to be retcon-ed, contradicted, or elaborately explained. 

If Tobi IS Obito, then how will Kishi explain the "children" comment and timeline inconsistencies?

If Tobi IS NOT Obito, then how will Kishi explain how well he knows Kakashi and all of these convenient coincidences?

If Tobi is a new character, then it is the worst F%#*ing writing imaginable.

But let's not bash each other's brains in just because it's a mystery. Because, you know, the point of it is to be a mystery....


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> what?
> 
> so me presenting facts to shit on a bullshit theory is ignorance?
> 
> okay... this is news to me (peter griffin voice)



Can you list all your issues with the theory? If you have the time.

I'd like to look at it and see from my perspective, if I could think of ways around them.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> what?
> 
> so me presenting facts to shit on a bullshit theory is ignorance?
> 
> okay... this is news to me (peter griffin voice)



you haven't presented a single fact that says its impossible to be tobi. not a SINGLE one that says the timeline is messed up.

your argument

"obito is ordinary, his side was crushed that we couldn't see, and he isn't intelligent enough to go through konoha barrier, tame kyuubi, or fight minato" 

despite there being a big enough time gap between his 'death' and tobi appearance along with there being the possibility of madara being alive at a proper point that makes it ALL POSSIBLE.


----------



## Klue (Jul 19, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I'll never understand how people can accept it being his body but not actually being him.



Because it doesn't make any sense.

How did he arrange plans with Madara if Madara died before he was born?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

RevPhelps said:


> Can I point something out? There are flaws to EVERY Tobi theory. _Something _is going to have to be retcon-ed, contradicted, or elaborately explained.
> 
> If Tobi IS Obito, then how will Kishi explain the "children" comment and timeline inconsistencies?
> 
> ...



P much.

If you could explain every single asinine detail then it wouldn't be a theory, it would be canon.


----------



## Austin (Jul 19, 2012)

Marik Swift said:


> Tobi is the sage's wife.



Tobi is mito uzumaki


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> its not about obito's height. im saying u think he was 14 years old when he fought minato?
> 
> what tobi did that night was considered something only madara could do, and his power was said to be "unfathomable". at 14 i find it VERY HARD to believe he could do all that. even mastering the sharingan to that lvl should take time and skill (especially if you considered the lvl obito was at) he was not your daily uchiha itachi.
> 
> plus do you get the vibe he was 14 years old judging his speeches, and the view he has on the world/people. does calling konan "a child" make sense to you? he's obviously older than kakashi, WAY OLDER





T-Bag said:


> tobi is OP. he got izanagi, incredible spacetime jutsu that beats the 4th, serious knowledge on every clan and seems to know a lot of history. doesnt matter who your teacher is, obito as the student was a very poor one
> 
> sorry dawg. he aint kakashi's age. calling konan a mere child... lol please





T-Bag said:


> i did prove it. where were you? the possibility is as high as me shooting obama tomorrow





T-Bag said:


> here's how i negate all that with one line from tobi (to kakashi) without resorting to the common counters to your theory
> 
> "ill play with you *children *some other time"
> 
> ...





T-Bag said:


> his sharingan got crushed. his entire right side was crushed from top to bottom





T-Bag said:


> even if he survived, it makes no sense. tobi is obviously someone older than kakashi and gai
> 
> tobi even worked with madara sometime when nagato was just an infant.. u telling me obito is that old? what.. are u forreal or u joking?





T-Bag said:


> what?
> 
> so me presenting facts to shit on a bullshit theory is ignorance?
> 
> okay... this is news to me (peter griffin voice)





Ichiurto said:


> Can you list all your issues with the theory? If you have the time.
> 
> I'd like to look at it and see from my perspective, if I could think of ways around them.



There you go bro, FLAWLESS facts he has right, makes everything impossible 

I'm sorry but if Kishi could come up with the JUUBI out of nowhere and make that insane theory one guy had that everyone bashed for true, then this is just as possible if not more so.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> brain washing is one hell of a thing bro.
> 
> especially in a world of genjutsu's and sharingans
> 
> edit: *my argument is in a world where ninjas have displayed the ability to advance in very little time, its  not an impossibility to say he became strong enough to do what tobi has did.*



the bold makes sense. It's just extremely way more plausible that someone who is gonna be the FV at one point had notable potential that was acknowledge-able...

Kinda like Amon from Legend of Korra had exceptional potential. Though I sincerely hope Kishi doesn't go down that rode, that last episode was epic but anti climatic 

edit: yeah I randomly got the idea by looking at First Tsurugi's sig lol


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

Klue said:


> Because it doesn't make any sense.
> 
> How did he arrange plans with Madara if Madara died before he was born?



Only thing I can think of is Zetsu's recording ability, or a perfect copy of Madara via Zetsu (Not sure if he copies memories though).


----------



## Raiden (Jul 19, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Because he had a shitty life himself?



But why does that turn to despising Kakashi? Tobi says that he is "no one," alluding to this idea of humans in the shinobi world growing cold because of a miserable life. But Kakashi has appreciated the memory of his alleged death all along. Why would you attack the one person that cherishes you?

One may say that Sasuke and Naruto's relationship answers that question, but Sasuke always seem more distant from Naruto than Naruto did from him. So the pieces don't quite fit. 



First Tsurugi said:


> It's pretty clear that circumstances prevented him from simply returning to Konoha.



By that line of logic, he created those circumstances by framing the Uchiha. I was going to contest what you said about the basis of him being a villain by suggesting that that isn't enough to make someone go off the deep end..and to the extreme Tobi did. One would think his anger would be aimed at other villages, not just Konoha. I don't think that assuming he lived, he had the same character development as Sasuke. He had a personal relationship with Konoha's leading government official, so he knew how to distinguish between power players like Danzo and the general sentiment of the village.

Impossible to know still. But we'll see. Usually these "mysteries" are painfully obvious.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 19, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> the bold makes sense. It's just extremely way more plausible that someone who is gonna be the FV at one point had notable potential that was acknowledge-able...
> 
> Kinda like Amon from Legend of Korra had exceptional potential. Though I sincerely hope Kishi doesn't go down that rode, that last episode was epic but anti climatic



kabuto was quite the power house and no one expected  him to advance to such a degree.
naruto was noted as having no potential numerous times in beginning yet he advanced amazingly. "failure" arc ring a bell?
jiraiya was noted as a failure too.

this series has rung numerous times with these 'failures' becoming powerhouses through tough training. now have someone who has the blood for such potential and throw in hard training also. 

if obito is anything like naruto then yes he would train like crazy to redeem his losses and failures. throw in the mangekyo sharingan and boom.

look how far kakashi progressed with his despite not having the blood for kamui in 2 years. now imagine obito having the other half (you can't deny kamui and the s/t intangible of tobi are VERY similar) having the blood of uchiha to make it natural, is it so crazy he came so far.

and raiden: tere are numerous reasons, A-Rin is dead, so he failed his promise B-kakashi DOES have a life of regrets theres no denying that examples include letting sasuke go, not being able tos ave his teacher, everyone close to him having died at one point or the other, but he has grown past it, or C-genjutsu sharingan brainwashing after being severely damaged like he was.
just saying


----------



## 4ghost (Jul 19, 2012)

No, I'm going to stick with my theory for now. Tobi is Obito's older brother. His right Sharingan eye is his EMS eye.


----------



## AMtrack (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> tobi = obito is perhaps one of the lamest theories, if not the lamest in manga history
> 
> lol imagine me taking obito serious.  imagine that real quick



We are talking about Kishi here.

And we are talking about a manga aimed at 12 yr olds.

I mean realistically, lame for us is awesome for 12 yr olds.  Lame is usually the most likely in mangas aimed at young children.


----------



## Shiny (Jul 19, 2012)

Again this thread? damn you all    I want to kishi put tobi as a random guy so i can Tasty the yummy tears of everyone that was expecting Tobi=ramen guy   tobi=Obito and the most plausible Tobi=Sasuke from the future


----------



## AMtrack (Jul 19, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Why else would Kakashi be there? Its a plot device. Kakashi didn't even take part againts Pain when Naruto fought him, and Tobi seems to know everything about Kakashi. His Kamui, his whole life, and now he also knows Gai. Its pretty obvious its him.
> 
> Madara is elsewhere, and no one else knows Kakashi & Gai, not Madara who was long dead.



It's a foregone conclusion, just no one wants to give the "those crazy Obito theorists" their props.  It was practically obvious from day one though...the name alone is suspect.  Plus the mask.  Plus Kakashi Gaiden being the only gaiden ever written by Kishi.  Plus their sharingans having similar powers (tobi and Kakashi).  Plus the Zetsu goo.  I mean seriously even Zetsu is a bloody plot device.

This is about as bad as when Kishi thought he was being sneaky about who Naruto's father was.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> you haven't presented a single fact that says its impossible to be tobi. not a SINGLE one that says the timeline is messed up.
> 
> your argument
> 
> ...



timeline is fucked up for him to be obito. i dont see how u cant accept this shit. tobi and madara were actually partners at some point and put mugen tsukuyomi in motion. 

obito is not older than nagato lmfao. yo i swear ur becomin a joke like these countless other tobito clowns


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi fought Hashirama

Hashirama was dead before Obito was bron

Obito is not Tobi

Simple as fuck.


----------



## 3rdgenkage (Jul 19, 2012)

lol at me being the guy who made a thread about how evil Rin is.


----------



## 3rdgenkage (Jul 19, 2012)

Hell yeah you know whats up


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 19, 2012)

you're the only clown here who can't deny that the possibility exists, go away you fail at analyzing anything


----------



## Austin (Jul 19, 2012)

ShinyMarch said:


> Again this thread? damn you all    I want to kishi put tobi as a random guy so i can Tasty the yummy tears of everyone that was expecting Tobi=ramen guy   tobi=Obito and the most plausible Tobi=Sasuke from the future



It's a joke lol. I'm making fun of people's stupid ass predictions.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Tobi fought Hashirama
> 
> Hashirama was dead before Obito was bron
> 
> ...



Clearly for Tobi to know everything he does, there'd have to be some brainwash/memory swamping going on between him and Madara.

And we have vechiles for that. Zetsu can copy a person to the very core. BlackZetsu had a recording ability. Madara could have laid a Genjutsu within a Zetsu clone, etc.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> kabuto was quite the power house and no one expected  him to advance to such a degree.
> naruto was noted as having no potential numerous times in beginning yet he advanced amazingly. "failure" arc ring a bell?
> jiraiya was noted as a failure too.
> 
> ...



Kabuto had recognizeable potential though. he was able to = Kakashi without sharingan, and beat a sannin granted due to her phobia of blood. But all that in part 1 is something.

I'll concede on that argument but Tobi doesn't have MS. And it really wouldn't make sense that if he showed it alongside the Rinnegan instead of the EMS. True power that has been Tobi's character aside from his liar portrayal. 

The other aspects are plausible though, but still contain the flaws like MS, perhaps that will come out when the mask is removed or something, who knows?..


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

im actually analyzing it just fine. this is why it doesnt make sense. the ones that aren't analyzing are the ones who support this bum ass theory


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

Something that remains sketchy still however is the part on Obito's timeline. Surely strength isn't enough for Obito to be able to do all those things in 3 years which should take at least a 1 to heal his body to it's optimal level and that's assuming other treatment was introduced by Madara.

Training would more than likely be halfassed because well his body was crushed, half of his brain. He should be in a hospital bed or in an underground hidden lab cave somewhere healing for at least half of the 3 years...


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

u think madara would treat this clown? he hates ugly people


----------



## Nashima (Jul 19, 2012)

I never understood why tobi being obito is so hard to believe. Yes he was crushed by a rock and that usually kills people in real life but this manga is pure fiction so anything is possible.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

there's only a handful of good looking people in this manga though 

now if this were Bleach, that'd be a different story


----------



## ashher (Jul 19, 2012)

yeah it does seem like a strong hint towards tobi=obito


----------



## Milo- (Jul 19, 2012)

inb4 Tobi is actually Rin.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 19, 2012)

austinuzumaki said:


> It's a joke lol. I'm making fun of people's stupid ass predictions.


Hey, the Ramen Guy = Tobi is legit.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

Milo- said:


> inb4 Tobi is actually Rin.



your too late on that one. A couple pages and a theory


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

Nashima said:


> I never understood why tobi being obito is so hard to believe. Yes he was crushed by a rock and that usually kills people in real life but this manga is pure fiction so anything is possible.



Well, there is the physical problem. Tobi looks like a grown adult, while Obito would only be 14.

There's the comment he made to Kushina "Do you know how long I've waited for this?!".

There's the way he talks to people like Kakashi as if they are children.

How powerful he got within a short time period.

I mean, some of this can be explained by Tobi carrying Madara's memories, and the physical issue can be argued against via body modification due to his legs being crushed. But you do have to suspend belief abit.

My theory has always been Tobi = Izuna in Obito's body, but again, this fails the body size issue. Tobi doesn't look 14 when he attacks Minato.

Ruling out those two, and I'm left grasping for straws. I can't see it being anyone else, and after this chapter, I've leaned more toward it being a brainwashed Obito. Same problems still exist though.


----------



## Nuuskis (Jul 19, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Tobi fought Hashirama



Tobi didn't fight Hashirama. It was the real Madara, and Tobi isn't the real Madara.

As for topic, I admit this chapter definitely hinted that Tobi could be Obito. But it still wouldn't make any sense to me.

I'm sticking with Tobi=is Madara's clone theory.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 19, 2012)

Nashima said:


> I never understood why tobi being obito is so hard to believe. Yes he was crushed by a rock and that usually kills people in real life but this manga is pure fiction so anything is possible.



Being crushed by a rock is the easy part to explain. The hard part is the character change. It's like Jimmy Olsen turning into Doomsday. Only a madman (such as Grant Morrison) would write it.


----------



## alienworkshopguy (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi is sasuke...Sasuke Sarutobi.
Zetsu is Obito..whats left of him anyways, combined with hashirama cells.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Being crushed by a rock is the easy part to explain. The hard part is the character change. It's like Jimmy Olsen turning into Doomsday.



Ugh.. Nagato? A Dog dying changed him. Obito lost the love of his life in Rin.

Sasuke has personality shifts every 5 chapters.

You serious right now? The personality shift is the last thing that worries me, considering Tobi is far from in a right mind-state. You do remember his goofy and stupid personality, correct?


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi is future Orochimaru because the Orochimaru from the present is a failure



I'm sorry I had to


----------



## HakuGaara (Jul 19, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> Why is that "obvious?" Is it because of the two lines said by Tobi that are easily explained filler dialogue?



Filler? That would be a really odd spot and choice of dialogue for filler.



Anonymouse said:


> He mentioned Gai not remember faces, because he couldn't remember Kisame.



Reread what Tobi said carefully. He said there was no point in *telling* Gai who he is, *not* 'showing' Gai who he is. This implies that they know each other even if only somewhat.



Anonymouse said:


> He mentioned Kakashi's regret because he let Sasuke leave Konoha.



What are you talking about? Kakashi never 'let' Sasuke go nor did Sasuke leaving have anything to do with Kakashi opening his mouth too easily. Kishi is clearly letting the readership know that Tobi knows something about Kakashi that only someone who knows him well would know, hence why Kakashi had a ! expression.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 19, 2012)

Did the OP just seriously compare NARUTO to Scooby Doo?


----------



## Shiny (Jul 19, 2012)

^^ prove me


----------



## KakashiTsunade (Jul 19, 2012)

*It's not OBITO.*

LAST WEEK IT WAS ALL FUTURE SASUKE. That comment towards kakashi would have been simply a smart ass comment. Sasuke trash talked his old mentor enough during their last encounter.


----------



## Freechoice (Jul 19, 2012)

*Tobi is Naruto.

Naruto is Sasuke.

Sasuke is Might Gai.

Might Gai is Kakashi.

Kakashi is Gaara.

Gaara is Tsunade.

Tsunade is Jiraiya.

Jiraiya is dead.*


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 19, 2012)

Not sure if serious or trolling.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 19, 2012)

More than three years ago in manga time Naruto couldn't even do Bunshin.

This alone proves the op to be a bad argument.


----------



## ashher (Jul 19, 2012)

*Tobi=Rin*

could be,you know. this chapter could hint at tobi=obito(more likely), or it could be hinting tobi=rin. that would be one heck of a thing out of the left field.


----------



## KevKev (Jul 19, 2012)

Lol it's possible...I mean I can see Sasuke saying that after Kakashi's talk of Forgetting revenge to Part 1 Sasuke...


----------



## ovanz (Jul 19, 2012)

But a woman being relevant in this manga? And Rin is kakashi/obito age, either way the Minato vs Tobi fight, Tobi was already an adult at that time.

She didn't have wringles or black hair.


----------



## Revolution (Jul 19, 2012)

There are no time machines in the Narutoverse.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 19, 2012)

So Sasuke lied to himself about the Kyuubi's attack.

Sounds legit.


----------



## Shiny (Jul 19, 2012)

freechoice33 said:


> *Tobi is Naruto.
> 
> Naruto is Sasuke.
> 
> ...





*Spoiler*: __ 



Why you so mean,Stop saying Jyraya-san is dead


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 19, 2012)

Somebody beat you to this thread in the Library.

We had good laughs.


----------



## Klue (Jul 19, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> Only thing I can think of is Zetsu's recording ability, or a perfect copy of Madara via Zetsu (Not sure if he copies memories though).



Hmm, this actually makes a ton of sense.


----------



## ashher (Jul 19, 2012)

ovanz said:


> But a woman being relevant in this manga? And Rin is kakashi/obito age, either way the Minato vs Tobi fight, Tobi was already an adult at that time.
> 
> She didn't have wringles or black hair.



that was madara.

then rin died her hair.

seriously if kishi can actually show the guts to make such outrage as tobi=rin canon, then he will have the capacity to twist around small details like that. I've that much confidence


----------



## ashher (Jul 19, 2012)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> Somebody beat you to this thread in the Library.
> 
> We had good laughs.



Sheesh, i missed out on the fun-times.


----------



## Tony Lou (Jul 19, 2012)

I stopped reading at "Why else would Kakashi be there?". That kind of argument is the reason why the theory doesn't get much respect.

It's the same as "their hair looks the same" and "they're both one-eyed".

Even though it is the wrong eye. And he was shown to have both when half the mask came off during the fight with Konan.


----------



## KevKev (Jul 19, 2012)

Sarahmint said:


> There are no time machines in the Narutoverse.



Sharingan has potential  all Kishi gotta do is let Sasuke activate EMS and give the jutsu or whatever a japanese deity name and you got yourself a time machine! 

And Hiko...
*Spoiler*: __ 



Just as planned


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Luiz said:


> Even though it is the wrong eye.



It's not.



> And he was shown to have both when half the mask came off during the fight with Konan.



That was a placeholder eye for Izanagi.


----------



## HakuGaara (Jul 19, 2012)

A part of me almost wants Tobi to be revealed as Obito just to see Kishimoto's amazing explanation for something that doesn't make a lick of sense.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

Luiz said:


> I stopped reading at "Why else would Kakashi be there?". That is the sort of silly reasoning usually used to support this theory.
> 
> Along the same lines of "their hair looks the same" and "they're both one-eyed".
> 
> Although it is the wrong eye. And he was shown to have both when half the mask came off during the fight with Konan.



There are manga panels showing his head wasn't crushed. Tobi's left face has scars on it, while the right side has none. Obito's left side was under the rock.

The Sharingan under his Mask was used for Izangini (Sorry, spelled it wrong) while the one in his left eye (That he uses to teleport and warp things) is never touched.

He didn't even remove it to have two Rinn'egan.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 19, 2012)

The basic "Tobito" theory has been pretty solid for a long time now. And it gets stronger and stronger with each chapter...People just shit all over [its supporters] because it's "cool" to do so:

There was a time when people claimed that Tobi was Obito with a head injury or angry or whatever. When Tobi began calling himself "Madara" and we learned more about him, tons of bandwagon hoppers on this forum decided it was a fact that Tobito was out the window, and if anyone dared bring it up, they needed to be laughed off the forum.

Now, that shit is coming back at them, and they're scared. I've been a believer of it for nearly 7 years now, but everyone (who's bitter they were wrong) is going to call "asspull" something _fierce_ when it's eventually revealed. An "asspull" that I foresaw 7 years ago. Funny how that works.



First Tsurugi said:


> I'll never understand how people can accept it being his body but not actually being him.



Well, his relation to Zetsu/Madara would be kind of silly if it were purely him, would it not?



			
				Luiz said:
			
		

> I stopped reading at "Why else would Kakashi be there?". That kind of argument is the reason why the theory doesn't get much respect.
> 
> It's the same as "their hair looks the same" and "they're both one-eyed".
> 
> Even though it is the wrong eye. And he was shown to have both when half the mask came off during the fight with Konan.



You need to give the theory a chance, and really think about it or educate yourself.

Your post really illuminates the fact that you have no idea what the theory is about, so _of course_ you think it's dumb.


----------



## Rasendori (Jul 19, 2012)

I would rather it be Obito than anybody else tbh. 

Madara's brother would be lame and so would Rin. After all his identity hype only Obito can fully get adequate reason for the mask and it would spice up Tobi's character.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Well, his relation to Zetsu/Madara would be kind of silly if it were purely him, would it not?



Not when we still have no idea what that relationship is.


----------



## Tony Lou (Jul 19, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> There are manga panels showing his head wasn't crushed. Tobi's left face has scars on it, while the right side has none. Obito's left side was under the rock.
> 
> The Sharingan under his Mask was used for Izangini (Sorry, spelled it wrong) while the one in his left eye (That he uses to teleport and warp things) is never touched.
> 
> He didn't even remove it to have two Rinn'egan.



Those are wrinkles, not scars. Kishimoto has never drawn scars that way.

If it's case, that means Danzou's face was very scarred.


----------



## Vanadius (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi isn't Obito.

1) There's no reason why Obito would have a grudge against the leaf.
2) There's no reason why Obito would have a grudge against the Uchiha.
3) Tobi is parasitic.  He appropriates or steals power from others to enhance himself.  Obito is symbiotic.  He sacrificed himself and gifted his eye to Kakashi.
4) If Tobi is Obito, then he fights his own master (Minato)?  That makes no sense.  
5) Obito wanted to protect Rin. Tobi has no problem seeing Karin killed.
6) Tobi would never fight for Konoha like Obito did.
7) Tobi's ST sharingan is on the side of his face that would've been crushed by the rock.  
8) How would Obito have collaborated with Madara?  Madara also seems to believe that Mugen Tsukiyomi is solution.
9) There's no reason for Obito to hate Hashirama.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

Luiz said:


> Those are wrinkles, not scars. Kishimoto has never drawn scars that way.
> 
> If it's case, that means Danzou's face was very scarred.



Wrinkles on one side of his face?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Luiz said:


> Those are wrinkles, not scars. Kishimoto has never drawn scars that way.



Then why are they only on one side of his face?



> If it's case, that means Danzou's face was very scarred.



It was.


----------



## Tony Lou (Jul 19, 2012)

Rasendori said:


> I would rather it be Obito than anybody else tbh.
> 
> Madara's brother would be lame and so would Rin. After all his identity hype only Obito can fully get adequate reason for the mask and it would spice up Tobi's character.



That's the problem. When Nagato's identity was a mystery in early Part 2, people made all kinds of theories. He had to be either a dead guy or another known character.

Being a new character was the last thing people wanted him to be, and that's what he was.


----------



## Butō Rengoob (Jul 19, 2012)

"Just accept it...." How about fuck you?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Luiz said:


> Being a new character was the last thing people wanted him to be, and that's what he was.



Nagato was not "a new character", he was one of the first serious possibilities introduced for Pain's identity.


----------



## Tony Lou (Jul 19, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> Wrinkles on one side of his face?



Show me the page.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Luiz said:


> Show me the page.



Here you go.



Sutol said:


> Scars on right side of the face:
> 
> 
> 
> No scars on left side of the face:


----------



## Tony Lou (Jul 19, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Nagato was not "a new character", he was one of the first serious possibilities introduced for Pain's identity.



Even if people considered he could be one of Jiraiya's disciples, he still was a character who hadn't been introduced before.


----------



## Kyrie Eleison (Jul 19, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Why else would Kakashi be there? Its a plot device.


Aside from a connection to Tobi that may or may not exist, Kakashi and Guy are there because they both have a strong connection to Naruto and are two of the strongest jounins that are available to reinforce him.



> Kakashi didn't even take part against Pain when Naruto fought him


Considering that the only time Naruto fought Pein was during his destruction of Konoha, Kakashi was already dead by the time Naruto arrived and Team Guy was diverted by a mission and then told that they'd only get in Naruto's way.



> Tobi seems to know everything about Kakashi. His Kamui, his whole life, and now he also knows Gai. Its pretty obvious its him.



Tobi makes a point of knowing (or learning) a bothersome amount of information about quite a few prominent individuals. Given that Kakashi had used Kamui on Deidara and on a few other occasions, it's not unlikely that Tobi would already know quite a bit about Kakashi's abilities (not counting the fact that Tobi and Kakashi have interacted several times). As for Guy...Kisame fought Guy in person on two occasions and once by proxy, it's not hard to believe that Tobi would know enough about him to snark at him.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

Vanadius said:


> Tobi isn't Obito.
> 
> 1) There's no reason why Obito would have a grudge against the leaf.



Grudge against the entire Shinobi system because of the wars it creates and the people it gets killed.



> 2) There's no reason why Obito would have a grudge against the Uchiha.



Betrayed Madara for Hashirama.



> 3) Tobi is parasitic.  He appropriates or steals power from others to enhance himself.  Obito is symbiotic.  He sacrificed himself and gifted his eye to Kakashi.



Obviously Obito wouldn't be the same person he was when he got crushed.



> 4) If Tobi is Obito, then he fights his own master (Minato)?  That makes no sense.



Failure to protect Rin.



> 5) Obito wanted to protect Rin. Tobi has no problem seeing Karin killed.



Why do you keep assuming Obito would not have changed? Obviously he has.



> 6) Tobi would never fight for Konoha like Obito did.



Again, Tobi being Obito would mean Obito has changed rather drastically.



> 7) Tobi's ST sharingan is on the side of his face that would've been crushed by the rock.



Head was never crushed.  Check next Page.



> 8) How would Obito have collaborated with Madara?  Madara also seems to believe that Mugen Tsukiyomi is solution.



Zetsu's Recording Ability. Zetsu Clone of Madara with Genjutsu-Memory transfer.



> 9) There's no reason for Obito to hate Hashirama.



He'd have Madara's memories (In my theory, anyway).


----------



## josh101 (Jul 19, 2012)

How would Obito go from being some waste-ass ninja who just activated Sharingan to someone who can summon Kyuubi, make him his bitch and be on equal grounds with Minato in a short amount of time? 

Zetsu may be able to transfer memories, but I doubt he can transfer fighting skills.


----------



## Hossaim (Jul 19, 2012)

Nachrael said:


> Tobi didn't fight Hashirama. It was the real Madara, and Tobi isn't the real Madara.
> 
> As for topic, I admit this chapter definitely hinted that Tobi could be Obito. But it still wouldn't make any sense to me.
> 
> I'm sticking with Tobi=is Madara's clone theory.



Tobi said he fought Hashirama in front of Zetsu and Kabtuo, both knew he was not Madara.

Why lie?


----------



## KevKev (Jul 19, 2012)

If Obito REALLY survived that rockslide...

Naruto is going to have some trouble bros.

Rocks > Uchiha


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Tobi said he fought Hashirama in front of Zetsu and Kabtuo, both knew he was not Madara.
> 
> Why lie?



Cause that would ruin the surprise.

Same reason he lied to Konan even though he had no reason to.


----------



## Neelix (Jul 19, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Why else would Kakashi be there? Its a plot device. *Kakashi didn't even take part againts Pain when Naruto fought him*



Well, he was dead...


----------



## Sarry (Jul 19, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Why else would Kakashi be there? Its a plot device. Kakashi didn't even take part againts Pain when Naruto fought him, and Tobi seems to know everything about Kakashi. His Kamui, his whole life, and now he also knows Gai. Its pretty obvious its him.
> 
> Madara is elsewhere, and no one else knows Kakashi & Gai, not Madara who was long dead.



Never assume things, just because they may seem obvious. 
Kishi loves to hint things then go in a different direction. 

Obito being Tobi has as many chances as Tobi being another person.
The best scenario is Tobi being a specialised Zetzu clone, one with Madara's DNA being dominant.


Before Madara was introduced as an ET, Tobi was his representative, and his right hand. It wouldn't make sense if Tobi kept saying different stories to different characters. It was better when he adopted that he was Madara inorder to fulfil his plan.


----------



## Klue (Jul 19, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Cause that would ruin the surprise.
> 
> Same reason he lied to Konan even though he had no reason to.






Yeah, that's extra retarded. At least Konan still believed him to be the real Madara.


----------



## josh101 (Jul 19, 2012)

Yes, a 14-16 year old Obito has waited to release the Kyuubi for so long.


----------



## Freechoice (Jul 19, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Why else would Kakashi be there? Its a plot device. Kakashi didn't even take part againts Pain when Naruto fought him, and Tobi seems to know everything about Kakashi. His Kamui, his whole life, and now he also knows Gai. Its pretty obvious its him.
> 
> Madara is elsewhere, and no one else knows Kakashi & Gai, not Madara who was long dead.



​


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

josh101 said:


> How would Obito go from being some waste-ass ninja who just activated Sharingan to someone who can summon Kyuubi, make him his bitch and be on equal grounds with Minato in a short amount of time?
> 
> Zetsu may be able to transfer memories, but I doubt he can transfer fighting skills.



That's one of many reasons that makes me hesitant to believe in Tobi = Obito.

My theory hasn't changed. It's been Tobi = Izuna for awhile, now I'm just guessing it's within Obito's broken body.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)




----------



## fukkengan (Jul 19, 2012)

I dont think its Obito, the hints are given the same way they were with Danzo. Somehow Kishi wants the readers to think its Obito. Which means its definitely not.


----------



## Vanadius (Jul 19, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> Grudge against the entire Shinobi system because of the wars it creates and the people it gets killed.



That doesn't explain why Obito has a grudge against the leaf.



> Betrayed Madara for Hashirama.



What's Obito's connection to Madara?  



> Obviously Obito wouldn't be the same person he was when he got crushed.



Why not?  Where's your evidence?



> Failure to protect Rin.



Rin survived, didn't she?



> Why do you keep assuming Obito would not have changed? Obviously he has.



1) No evidence indicating otherwise.
2) Obito is dead.



> Again, Tobi being Obito would mean Obito has changed rather drastically.



Again, what _valid_ reason would Obito have for hating Konoha?



> Head was never crushed.



Check this page.



His entire body was crushed.



> Zetsu's Recording Ability. Zetsu Clone of Madara with Genjutsu-Memory transfer.



Really?  How would Madara know who Obito is?



> He'd have Madara's memories (In my theory, anyway).



And how would that translate into hating Hashirama?


----------



## Easley (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi: Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?

Kushina: hmm, a year?

Tobi:


----------



## KevKev (Jul 19, 2012)

People disagreeing OP's argument, who do you want Tobi to be? curious


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jul 19, 2012)

It's going to be hilarious when the Tobi is Obito theorist dissappear after it's revealed to be someone else.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 19, 2012)

lol that's blunt. :rofl


----------



## handsock (Jul 19, 2012)

*Has this theory been said?*

What if Tobi is future Kakashi? Like, especially if he witnessed Naruto's death in the original timeline and was swayed so far from the path that he denounced all ninjai. And in order to become a badass he has Orochimaru evolve his eyes even further to suck himself in, and not just stuff on the outside. And eventually use that power to time travel. Why else would Kakashi even have so MANY scenes with Tobi? Compared to the rest of the non-bijuu fodder. Some people would say, OH BECAUSE IT'S OBITO! Nope, it's Mirai Kakashi.


----------



## Easley (Jul 19, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> There's a reason Tobi has a mask and won't remove it.
> 
> With the Mask, he becomes No One.
> 
> ...


 You can apply this logic to any _known_ character. It does not have to be Obito.



> There's a reason Kakashi is present at this point against Tobi.


Why is Guy there? Could it be that they're damn good fighters?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> It's going to be hilarious when the Tobi is Obito theorist dissappear after it's revealed to be someone else.



That's funny, because I think it'll be hilarious when it turns out to be true and all you skeptics get told once and for all.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Easley said:


> Why is Guy there? Could it be that they're damn good fighters?



If this chapter is any indication, Guy would probably recognize him too.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jul 19, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> That's funny, because I think it'll be hilarious when it turns out to be true and all you skeptics get told once and for all.



The fact that you think Obito went from being a dead Genin to going toe to toe with Minato in one year while being this sure of yourself is beyond priceless.


----------



## cant i guest post (Jul 19, 2012)

Only  thing I personally think makes sense is that Zetsus recording ability transfered some of the spirit/soul or psyche of the copied to the recipient.  Aka Madara being copied and along with his memories some of his personality transfers to Obito.  Only thing I can think makes sense with his statements and actions.  The recording ability would at least help explain if he is indeed Obito how he managed to fight almost equally with minato.

So maybe he has somewhat of a split personality thing going on.


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 19, 2012)

Pay no mind to body sizes when you come up with theories, Kishi is an expert in fucking that aspect up. Just check Itachi's body size at the age of the massacre and before.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> The fact that you think Obito went from being a dead Genin to going toe to toe with Minato in one year while being this sure of yourself is beyond priceless.



Keep on riding that denial train.

It's only a matter of time before canon cockslaps you in the face.


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 19, 2012)

Everyone is forgetting that a shocking reveal doesnt necessary means a character that we already know. 

 Its being pointed in several ways that Tobi is Obito, the author wants us to think that way, so its probably someone else. Someone with a huge importance but at the same time someone we have never seen.


----------



## Kyrie Eleison (Jul 19, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> That's funny, because I think it'll be hilarious when it turns out to be true and all you skeptics get told once and for all.



Perhaps, what's going to be funny is trying to explain how he became 5-7 inches taller and went from being a pathetic little brat who could barely awaken his sharingan shortly before his death to being a highly talented shinobi and manipulator who had mastered the sharingan enough to fight Minato and control a tailed beast in the time span of less than a year and a half. 

Even if it is Obito it's going to be hard to explain his rapid growth over such a short period of time...especially considering that he wasn't anything special by Uchiha standards...


----------



## Tifa (Jul 19, 2012)

That means he was 14 when he fought Minato. He didn't look 14 to me.


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 19, 2012)

Kyrie Eleison said:


> Perhaps, what's going to be funny is trying to explain how he became 5-7 inches taller and went from being a pathetic little brat who could barely awaken his sharingan shortly before his death to being a highly talented shinobi and manipulator who had mastered the sharingan enough to fight Minato and control a tailed beast in the time span of less a year and a half.
> 
> Even if it is Obito it's going to be hard to explain his rapid growth over such a short period of time...



 Kishi wont need to explain that, if anything that inconsistency actually makes it more plausible for the theory to happen. 

 Check how tall Itachi is during the Massacre and before being only a kid.


----------



## KevKev (Jul 19, 2012)

Just gonna leave this here  

...


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Kyrie Eleison said:


> Perhaps, what's going to be funny is trying to explain how he became 5-7 inches taller and went from being a pathetic little brat who could barely awaken his sharingan shortly before his death to being a highly talented shinobi and manipulator who had mastered the sharingan enough to fight Minato and control a tailed beast in the time span of less a year and a half.



Bro it's like he said himself, he is a late bloomer, once he awakens Sharingan his true growth begins.



> Even if it is Obito it's going to be hard to explain his rapid growth over such a short period of time...



Don't see why when you've got people like Sasuke, Naruto, and Kabuto who also became retard strong in a very short amount of time.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jul 19, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Keep on riding that denial train.
> 
> It's only a matter of time before canon cockslaps you in the face.



You think that Obito went from being a dead 5 foot tall Genin to Tobi in one year, and I'm in denial? 

LOL!


----------



## Karachi (Jul 19, 2012)

Well, i've seen future Sasuke and Naruto, i suppose Sakura is going to be the next logical step then we have all of team 7. Personally, i don't know if time travel is ever the right way to go in these kinds of situations. Perhaps Kishi has unveiled a vat of characters and amongst them he's hidden Tobi's identity, or perhaps he's going to pull a Pein and just say "it's this guy, here is his back story after the fact." I hope it's not the latter.

As you can see, i don't want to believe it's future anybody, but i could be persuaded.


----------



## NO (Jul 19, 2012)

naijaboykev28 said:


> People disagreeing OP's argument, who do you want Tobi to be? curious


They want it to be...

- Madara's brother, what's his name? (this is a joke at the fact that his name was never said in the manga)
- Zetsu Madara clone with implanted memories
- Shisui
- Kagami
- Sauce's dad

The only one from this list I would admit to having a chance is Kagami. Here's why:


----------



## Tengu (Jul 19, 2012)

It's future Orochimaru.


----------



## MormonJesus (Jul 19, 2012)

I did find it weird how he knew about Gai (Guy?) and Kakashi's personalities when it doesn't seem like they've had much personal interaction. Or maybe they have and I just don't remember. I just found it weird that he knew Kakashi lived a life of regret or whatever he said, along with Gai's face remembering. 

Maybe Zetsu just gives really thorough reports...


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

Vanadius said:


> That doesn't explain why Obito has a grudge against the leaf.
> 
> What's Obito's connection to Madara?



Obito would have all of Madara's memories, along with a brain-injury (Tobi has a bandage around his forehead) so he'd have a spilt personality going on Madara (The Serious one) and Obito (The Childish one).



> Why not?  Where's your evidence?



Because if Obito was Tobi, he'd have to have changed rather drastically to attack Minato, kidnap a baby and try to kill it, kidnap a woman after giving birth, etc.



> Rin survived, didn't she?



No. Kakashi told Sasuke in Part 1 everyone he cared about died. Rin is absent in the Manga. It's belived she died somewhere along the plot. When and How will be revealed with Tobi (Obito)'s backstory. If he is Obito, anyway.



> His entire body was crushed.



We see the rock resting on his right side, his head not crushed. Then the second cave-in happens, and we don't see anything after. He could have died, he could have lived. The Tobi = Obito (In Some Way) theory operates on the belief he lived. 



> Really?  How would Madara know who Obito is?



He wouldn't. Right Place, Right Time kind of thing. It would be more like Madara was dying and needed to be revived, so he left his memories/plans with Zetsu. Zetsu would be the one to save Obito, transfer the memories, keep his broken body alive, etc. (My personal theory is that Tobi is Izuna inside Obito's body with Madara's memories)



> And how would that translate into hating Hashirama?



Madara hates Hashirama. Memory overlap.

Keep in mind, I don't necessarily believe in this. I like to look at it from both sides. There's strong evidence it's Obito, and there's strong evidence it isn't.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

fukkengan said:


> Pay no mind to body sizes when you come up with theories, Kishi is an expert in fucking that aspect up. Just check Itachi's body size at the age of the massacre and before.



But there is also the problem with what he said to Kushina "Do you know how long I've waited for this?!".

The way he speaks to people like their children, etc.

I mean.. When Tobi was first introduced, his personality was way different. He was goofy. He also has a bandage around his forehead. So perhaps a bit of a brain-injury causing spilt personalties is happening.


----------



## Kyrie Eleison (Jul 19, 2012)

fukkengan said:


> Kishi wont need to explain that, if anything that inconsistency actually makes it more plausible for the theory to happen.
> 
> Check how tall Itachi is during the Massacre and before being only a kid.



Perhaps, I suppose you could hand wave the height issue by looking at how inconsistent Kishi can be at times when drawing supposedly younger versions of characters. You're right, Itachi is probably one of the best examples of this inconsistency.



First Tsurugi said:


> Bro it's like he said himself, he is a late bloomer, once he awakens Sharingan his true growth begins.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't see why when you've got people like Sasuke, Naruto, and Kabuto who also became retard strong in a very short amount of time.



That growth rate seems too implausible though, even Sasuke and Naruto had to go through multiple powerups and important fights to become as absurdly powerful as they are now, at the age of 15-17. It doesn't really do well for the suspension of disbelief when somebody can go from being a mediocre genin to being able to challenge a kage within a year or so (and at a younger age than either of the main characters, who are supposedly special).


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 19, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> But there is also the problem with what he said to Kushina "Do you know how long I've waited for this?!".
> 
> The way he speaks to people like their children, etc.
> 
> I mean.. When Tobi was first introduced, his personality was way different. He was goofy. He also has a bandage around his forehead. So perhaps a bit of a brain-injury causing spilt personalties is happening.



 I wouldnt take that as a hint, remember he's pretending to be someone he's not. 

 That's why we automatically discard all the possibilities that leads us to think he's Madara for what he have said before. Because the whole time or part of it, he was lying.


----------



## azn7136 (Jul 19, 2012)

*Tobi's Identity...*

So, I was thinking about this, and I realized, Tobi seems to know a lot of things, mostly about the Uchiha, Madara, and he even seems to know Kakashi, and have a similar ability to him, making him plausible to be Obito.

However, he is made of Zetsu goo, which if I recall correctly, Zetsu can record memories as well as imitate the chakra of other people.

... So I was playing the game Prototype, where the main character is basically a biomass of many different people, basically becoming " no one " but having the memories of all of them. Because of Zetsu's ability, and the fact that Tobi is made up of Zetsu goo, I think it seems plausible that Tobi could possibly be made up of something similar or of the same idea as the main character in Prototype... the main thing that caught me was when Tobi said "I am no one" some chapters ago.

I still think Tobi is possibly Obito, but this is only another theory I thought of


----------



## KevKev (Jul 19, 2012)

jayjay32 said:


> They want it to be...
> 
> - Madara's brother, what's his name? (this is a joke at the fact that his name was never said in the manga)
> - Zetsu Madara clone with implanted memories
> ...



 I used to think it's Kagami as well. And you know what? During the Kyuubi attack at Konoha, Hiruzen, Koharu, akimichi guy and glasses elder are seen trying to defend their village.  But guess who wasn't there: Danzou and Kagami 

But I really starting to think Tobi is evil future Sasuke, it make sense once you think about the power of the EMS/MS and it's broken abilities.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 19, 2012)

What's with the time-traveling bullshit theories?

They're bullshit.


What's next, an alien parasyte landed on Earth and latched itself onto Madara's body?

Jesus cking . . .


----------



## AlphaReaver (Jul 19, 2012)

*The Mask Shall Prove That*

Tobito LIVES!!


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 19, 2012)

I admit it would be cool, and it can explain a lot of things like Tobi's Personality, but it wouldnt be shocking or important to reveal.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

That would be something.

Really, if we learned more about Zetsu we'd also end up learning more about Tobi.


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 19, 2012)

naijaboykev28 said:


> I used to think it's Kagami as well. And you know what? During the Kyuubi attack at Konoha, Hiruzen, Koharu, akimichi guy and glasses elder are seen trying to defend their village.  But guess who wasn't there: Danzou and Kagami
> 
> But I really starting to think Tobi is evil future Sasuke, it make sense once you think about the power of the EMS/MS and it's broken abilities.



 It would be funny though, Evil Future Sasuke tells present Post Itachi's Death Sasuke that he's Madara and then proceeds to remove his mask just to reveal that he's his own self after convincing him he's not.


----------



## Superstars (Jul 19, 2012)

I hope not but if Tobi is obito, oh well, just go down with an epic fight like a top villain should!


----------



## On and On (Jul 19, 2012)

Vanadius said:


> Tobi isn't Obito.
> 
> 1) There's no reason why Obito would have a grudge against the leaf.
> 2) There's no reason why Obito would have a grudge against the Uchiha.
> ...



Most importantly

- Why is Obito's face wrinklier than Kakashi's? 
- Kakashi would've recognized his chakra color, iirc 
- If Tobi is Obito, then he fights his own master (Minato)?  That makes no sense. <- much less without Minato noticing? Hogwash 
- Tobi's ST sharingan is on the side of his face that would've been crushed by the rock.  
- Obito doesn't know shit about Hashirama or Madara


----------



## Mr. 0 (Jul 19, 2012)

Obitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobi


----------



## Milo- (Jul 19, 2012)

^ I'm sorry, maybe I'm being slow here, but, what's your point?


----------



## Mr. 0 (Jul 19, 2012)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> You think that Obito went from being a dead 5 foot tall Genin to Tobi in one year, and I'm in denial?
> 
> LOL!


 Decades after Madara's death, and Tobi shows up just a year after Obito's supposed death....

Coincidence?


----------



## KevKev (Jul 19, 2012)

Milo- said:


> ^ I'm sorry, maybe I'm being slow here, but, what's your point?



 Lol nahh, you're not slow, I'm just saying that after hearing what Tobi said to Kakashi made me think he's possibly Future Sasuke 

Kakashi told Sasuke that he already lost his all friends that were special to him when Sasuke asked how would he feel if he killed all who he loved. Kakashi always says that he regrets the decisions he done in his past if I could remember. At the current chapter, Tobi just said the same thing about Kakashi


----------



## KevKev (Jul 19, 2012)

fukkengan said:


> It would be funny though, Evil Future Sasuke tells present Post Itachi's Death Sasuke that he's Madara and then proceeds to remove his mask just to reveal that he's his own self after convincing him he's not.



It would be!  I still don't understand why Tobi didn't continue to show his identity to that Sasuke after getting Amaterasu'd...


----------



## balthosai (Jul 19, 2012)

naijaboykev28 said:


> Lol nahh, you're not slow, I'm just saying that after hearing what Tobi said to Kakashi made me think he's possibly Future Sasuke  ..



Stopped reading right there.


----------



## Golden Circle (Jul 19, 2012)

This is what happens when people take too much stock on the spoilers.

[sp=reminds me of this]Oh how cute! Two people standing together! They must be in love![/sp]


----------



## Jay. (Jul 19, 2012)

josh101 said:


> Yes, a 14-16 year old Obito has waited to release the Kyuubi for so long.



Not the same Tobi as the current one.


----------



## KevKev (Jul 19, 2012)

balthosai said:


> Stopped reading right there.



Oh well 

On to the next one


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

It's not going to be anyone Sasuke recognizes, because Tobi was willing to show his face to the Sauce.

Which means no Future Sasuke, No Fugaku, and possibly no Shisui.


----------



## Freechoice (Jul 19, 2012)

ShinyMarch said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Why you so mean,Stop saying Jyraya-san is dead



 You're one funny guy.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 19, 2012)

AlphaReaver said:


> Tobito LIVES!!



Lives? son it is ruling with an iron fist! 





Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> You think that Obito went from being a dead 5 foot tall Genin to Tobi in one year, and I'm in denial?
> 
> LOL!



so stupid, in a manga about magic and the dead coming back to life all the time. How the hell can you argue that it impossible for anything to happen? The moment Danzou revealed he had an arm of sharingans was the moment that "anything is possible in this manga" became a reality.


Kishi has been hinting obito for YEARS, thats why we tobito theorist came up with it. If he wants a certain character to be tobi then he WILL make it make sense. Its VERY EASY to make fictional retcons and make them make sense.


The truth is people hate this theory because they dont like obito and they have no conception of foreshadowing. These anti tobito arguments are really pathetic.


----------



## Golden Circle (Jul 19, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Why else would Kakashi be there? Its a plot device. Kakashi didn't even take part againts Pain when Naruto fought him, and Tobi seems to know everything about Kakashi. His Kamui, his whole life, and now he also knows Gai. Its pretty obvious its him.


You are so right. Kakashi and Tobi are right next to each other! I mean, surely you can't see all the tension???

[sp][/sp]

Yup yup yup. Tobito totally makes sense.


----------



## Easley (Jul 19, 2012)

What happens in the movie is obviously not canon. "Limited Tsukuyomi".

1

Some people's excitement may be short-lived.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Jul 19, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Why else would Kakashi be there? Its a plot device. Kakashi didn't even take part againts Pain when Naruto fought him



Erm, reread the Pain arc. Kakashi was definitely there.



> and Tobi seems to know everything about Kakashi. His Kamui, his whole life,



Kakashi has used Kamui right in front of Tobi many times, so of course he knows about. And saying he has lived a life of regret _when it's common knowledge_ that he has lost his team-mates, parents, teacher, and one of his students isn't exactly an indication of "knowing his whole life".



> and now he also knows Gai. Its pretty obvious its him.



Tobi made a comment about Gai's relationship with Kisame. And even if he does personally know Gai, what makes you think Gai knows Obito? 



> Madara is elsewhere, and no one else knows Kakashi & Gai, not Madara who was long dead.



Just how long dead is Madara?

The "evidence" you provide here isn't enough.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> i cant accept theories made by 10 year olds just because their hair looks the smae


I'm starting to think that you're a troll. No one can be this stupid.

Negged, biatch.


----------



## Rain (Jul 19, 2012)

Its just seems too obvious. Kishi is probably trolling us.

Nah, ain't gonna happen, bro.


----------



## Wraith_Madara (Jul 19, 2012)

I can't accept it. Not yet.

I need to see his mask come off in the manga, and I need a detailed explanation of how he: possibly worked with Madara, got all his knowledge, why the Rinnegan eyes were "his to begin with" and how he was able to summon the Ninetails (heck, and the Juubi), and why he is the way he is.

I also hope for him not being Obito, since if he is, besides not making sense (yet), it sets him up even more than before for a TnJ. I'd prefer him being Izuna, or simply Noone, the first successful Zetsu clone, a mix of Madara and Hashirama cells.


----------



## Arya Stark (Jul 19, 2012)

His words to Kakashi left me suspicious too 
But it's too early to accept this.


----------



## josh101 (Jul 19, 2012)

cant i guest post said:


> Only  thing I personally think makes sense is that Zetsus recording ability transfered some of the spirit/soul or psyche of the copied to the recipient.  Aka Madara being copied and along with his memories some of his personality transfers to Obito.  Only thing I can think makes sense with his statements and actions.  The recording ability would at least help explain if he is indeed Obito how he managed to fight almost equally with minato.
> 
> So maybe he has somewhat of a split personality thing going on.


Yes, so Obito has Madara's memories, ideology and powers. It's totally Obito in control though.


----------



## Reddan (Jul 19, 2012)

I think the theory I put through a while ago is looking far more likely.

Madara survived and the VOTE and was able to use his new powers of creation to make Zetsu.  

At some point he discovered a young Obito. Obito's body was destroyed and was desperate to live a bit longer. Madara offered him a chance to live long and would even fix his body. Obito agreed, but Madara not only fixed his body, but implanted some of his soul/chakra into the Zetsu/Obito hybrid. This allowed him to take control of the body at certain times. However, I would imagine Obito was fighting against this control. The final straw was probably when Rin died and Obito completely gave into Madara.

Madara is not the kind of man to trust his resurrection to a subordinate. He is too arrogant and too thorough. He would only trust Tobi/Obito if he had a some control over him even in death. 

Anyway as time passed, I believe the strength of the chakra in Obito began to lose it's power. Obito was once again in control, but he was now a bitter, broken man. Seeing no hope in this world he planned to carry through with Madara's original plan.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

*Proof that Tobi is not Obito in spirit*



_"Do you have *any* idea how long I've waited for this moment?!"_

I do believe that Tobi is using Obito's right eye and probably also his body, but this is _not_ a thing that Obito would say, no matter how you look at it.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 19, 2012)

You guys are are right.  Obito could have never use sharingan powers without 20 years of training.  We saw Sasuke fail over and over to use Amaterasu when he first got it.  We know you can never use sharigan powers without training them first.   

If you notice anything about Tobi's power is that he's 99% Sharigan.  When he got his sharigan he was fighting on par with Kakashi who was a jounin.   There was no vast techniques Tobi showed vs. Minato?  S/T and phasing and Uchiha bijuu control.  It's like people expect him not to be able to use his S/T and phasing if it's sharigan power.  Did Sasuke constantly fail to uses

The only thing we've seen he's got in common with Madara's personality is he wants the moons eye plan.  Moons Eye Plan is peace through force and it's easy to see someone who's body was wrecked by war, his love likely killed by the ninja way could easily be swayed.

It's pretty obvious that the Long hair masked guy is Madara if Tobi is Obito going by age/timeline.    

The biggest thing that makes Obito seem wrong is it's just too obvious to be true and then you have the timeline issues.  But we can see that not only does Obito know Kakashi and Guy on personal level his words were personal as well like he held a grudge.  He's probably seen Kakashi at his own grave often.


----------



## Ezekial (Jul 19, 2012)

After this chapter I'm starting to believe Tobi may very well Obito, but, how on Earth is Kishi going to explain Obito's jump from a base Sharingan wielding fodder to a Rikudou who's laughing at 4 uber powerful shinobi & was able to minipulate a God? (Nagato) 

Plus how would he be linked to the Rinnegan? i.e "they were mine to begin with" that line massively hints towards him being Izuna, And he was a full grown adult when he attacked Konoha during that time Kakashi (who looked slightly taller then Obito as kids) was shorter then then adults and therefore Tobi.

This chapter opened my eyes slightly to the Tobito theory, although i'm 95% sure he's Izuna


----------



## Easley (Jul 19, 2012)

arednad said:


> Madara survived and the VOTE and was able to use his new powers of creation to make Zetsu.
> 
> At some point he discovered a young Obito. Obito's body was destroyed and was desperate to live a bit longer. Madara offered him a chance to live long and would even fix his body. Obito agreed, but Madara not only fixed his body, but implanted some of his soul/chakra into the Zetsu/Obito hybrid. This allowed him to take control of the body at certain times. However, I would imagine Obito was fighting against this control. The final straw was probably when Rin died and Obito completely gave into Madara.


Madara died after awakening the Rinnegan, when Nagato was a child. Obito wasn't even born. He expected his resurrection via Rinne Tensei. Tobi must have met Madara to know about the Moon's Eye plan and Izuna, but Obito is far too young. I don't believe he controlled Yagura, massacred the Uchiha, extracted Kyuubi to destroy Konoha. Why does he have a grudge against the Uchiha?

"Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?"

Why would Obito say that?


----------



## ShenLong Kazama (Jul 19, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> No, I won't believe it. The Obito theory makes no sense whatsoever. Tobi might only have the body of Obito. But that's all.



Yeah, Obito being Tobi would be pretty stupid. It should be either Shisui or Kagami.


----------



## Ezekial (Jul 19, 2012)

His eyes maybe linked, but his body and mind are a defiant no no.


----------



## Ghost (Jul 19, 2012)

Obito theory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)Kagami theory.


----------



## Easley (Jul 19, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> This chapter opened my eyes slightly to the Tobito theory, although i'm 95% sure he's Izuna


Izuna is possible, but a pretty boring reveal in my opinion.

I'm 95% sure that Tobi is not Obito.


----------



## Namikaze Minato Flash (Jul 19, 2012)

Obito was content with his ninja way even until the end. What could've possibly happened to turn him so twisted after his parting words with Kakashi and his honorable death...?


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 19, 2012)

*A Tobi = Obito theory I've never seen so far*

*Tobi has been both, Madara and Obito.*

Madara lost at the VOTE but survived with great injuries and kept himself alive
via zetsu goo (maybe Zetsu even is some fucked up Sharingan Jutsu, I could imagine that)

He hid his Identity from then on, and as he was dying he found a little child, Obito, so he helped him staying alive, with Zetsu goo as well, so he had an apprentice from then on .... And some time after Madara fought with Yondaime, Madara has died and placed some of his soul into Obito, who took the role of Tobi from then on. Everything would be explained this way. The wrinkles and power of Obito, the problematics of Obito having fought Yondaime, it was Madara back then. Obito wouldn't even have lied to Sasuke about the Kyuubi attack then, since it actually was Madara.

 So, how could Kisame recognize the one who controlled Yagura, then ? It couldn't have been Obito, who controlled Yagura ? 

Right, that was Madara as well, but why did Kisame recognize Madara ? As I said with the transferring of a part of Madaras soul into 
Obito, he also took over a part of Madaras original appearance.

If you see a plothole in that, let me know.


----------



## Grendel (Jul 19, 2012)

All he would have had to do is maybe witness Rin's death and awaken MS to get a major power boost...really all he used against minato was s/t...

Used to support this theory but felt maybe it was unlikely in the past few years (should have stuck with it)...one thing that always struck me was the introduction of the Kakashi Gaiden...introducing Obito...and it's placement right before the start of part 2 where Tobi is the major villian for most of it...


----------



## jgalt7 (Jul 19, 2012)

FFS...with that logic, why is Guy there?


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 19, 2012)

Namikaze Minato Flash said:


> Obito was content with his ninja way even until the end. What could've possibly happened to turn him so twisted after his parting words with Kakashi and his honorable death...?



You mean honorable injury.  Rin's death by the ninja way is likely the cause if Tobi is Obito.  Not to mention being crushed by rocks give him hate of war.  

Don't be surpised if Naruto gives him TnJ about the alliance and peace.


----------



## DejaEntendu (Jul 19, 2012)

Itαchi said:


> If you see a plothole in that, let me know.



The plot hole is in the thread title. Every Tobi= possibility imaginable has been expressed multiple times. It's just a wait and see which BS explanation comes up at this point.


----------



## Brian (Jul 19, 2012)

Man if Obito really became Tobi just because Rin died he would possibly be the weakest villain this series has to offer.


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 19, 2012)

DejaEntendu said:


> The plot hole is in the thread title. Every Tobi= possibility imaginable has been expressed multiple times. It's just a wait and see which BS explanation comes up at this point.



You obviously didn't read the thread at all.


----------



## Noctis Dragneel (Jul 19, 2012)

I believe that pouring his soul part isn't really necessary, that's kind of anti-climatic. He could have just acted like Madara later on.


----------



## Asherah (Jul 19, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> It's pretty clear that circumstances prevented him from simply returning to Konoha.



What? How is it clear?

There is no explanation for why, if Obito indeed survived the rocks, he didn't just get his ass back to his friends and family in Konoha long before Rin even died. You only have conjecture based on nothing.


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 19, 2012)

Noctis Dragneel said:


> I believe that pouring his soul part isn't really necessary, that's kind of anit-climatic. He could have just acted like Madara later on.



Yeah maybe, but somehow Obito would still need to get the wrinkles and knowledge of VOTE etc. and that's the only way I could imagine that.


----------



## raizen28 (Jul 19, 2012)

I see where youre coming from though.
Heck Knowing how Kishi can asspull stuff out of nowhere or make stuff up thats not suspectable, he probably would let him be Obito and them explain in some type of way.

But Im still not sure. Anything can happen just as random as an Izanami.


----------



## DejaEntendu (Jul 19, 2012)

Itαchi said:


> You obviously didn't read the thread at all.



Read it. Here, and many other threads. Nothing new, man. Sorry. ^^

If you'd like repeated constructive criticism,

-Obito died in the rubble.

-Madara would have no reason to be in that place at that time, and should have no need for a random Uchiha at a time when there were plenty in the Hidden Leaf.

-Obito and Madara/Tobi's personalities are nothing alike.

-What does Kisame have to do with Obito? Nothing.

*Edit: Tobi/Obito


----------



## Mayaki (Jul 19, 2012)

*If Tobi was Obito..*

.. don't you think he would've had a better fight with the forth? He obviously lacked info on his jutsu (the kunai for example). But Obito would definitely know about that, wouldn't he.


----------



## fralamp88 (Jul 19, 2012)

Well, he was very young back then, wasn't he? Makes sense that his ability were lacking.


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 19, 2012)

DejaEntendu said:


> Read it. Here, and many other threads. Nothing new, man. Sorry. ^^
> 
> If you'd like repeated constructive criticism,
> 
> ...





1. I've never seen a similar theory to this one.

2. You mean OBITO died in the rubble ? Who knows he died or not ? This
is Shounen.

3. As I explained in the OP Madara could have been on the verge of death and would need some young apprentice and Obito would have been perfect for these reasons, making him survive with Zetsu he would stay on Madaras side, the one who saved his life. 

4. The personalities are nothing alike ? Didn't Itachi say Naruto could turn out into someone like Tobi ? Same happened with Obito. Kabuto wasn't like Orochimaru in the start, either, people can change.

5. Kisame recognized Madara, when Tobi put his mask off.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 19, 2012)

Madara would've had to wonder around a long time before Obito was even born, though.


----------



## raizen28 (Jul 19, 2012)

DejaEntendu said:


> Read it. Here, and many other threads. Nothing new, man. Sorry. ^^
> 
> If you'd like repeated constructive criticism,
> 
> ...


Tobi has been officially soloed by "rubble"


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 19, 2012)

raizen28 said:


> Tobi has been officially soloed by "rubble"



His destiny was sealed. May he R.I.P


----------



## Noctis Dragneel (Jul 19, 2012)

Question: Can Tobi use his space sucking (simillar to Kamui) jutsu only on his right eye? If so, then I am 100% confident that the right eye is Obito's, and even more confident that he is Obito as a whole.


----------



## DejaEntendu (Jul 19, 2012)

Yeah, yeah. Used the wrong name. Hilarious.



> 4. The personalities are nothing alike ? Didn't Itachi say Naruto *could turn out into someone like Tobi* ? Same happened with Obito. Kabuto wasn't like Orochimaru in the start, either, people can change.
> 
> 5. Kisame recognized Madara, when Tobi put his mask off.



I have no idea what you're saying in the bold there, but their personalities -are- nothing alike. Tobi and Madara are bent on world domination and ultimate power, whereas Obito sacrificed himself for his team and gave Kakashi his eye as a parting gift. It's like fire and ice, in terms of personalities.

I understand Kisame recognized the face behind the mask. How would he recognize Obito is my question. They have had no interaction.

Edit: Negative rep for not agreeing with your recycled theory? Classssssy.


----------



## raizen28 (Jul 19, 2012)

Itαchi said:


> His destiny was sealed. May he R.I.P


No your getting it wrong. It wasnt peace.

The rubble was Extremely powerful that Tobi had absolutely NOTHING to Defend against. It automatically took away his S/T abilities and ALL. He had to Die a SLOW death knowing it was Nothing he could do.

Obito got it too. They better get the Rubble until it tries it again. Tobi even had rinnegan. It did nothing.
Rubble-Demi God Tier
Rubble>Tobi automatically
(No Diff)




"Moment of Silence"


----------



## Mariko (Jul 19, 2012)

Legit in this way:

After hearing Obito's death, Oro go to take Obito's body.

He treats him and make him his next vessel.

They create Akatsuki Together.

They create Nagato.

But Oro understand Tobi has surpassed him.

Since they don't share the same philosophycal way of seeing things, Oro leaves Aka.

He wants Sasuke's body to face again Tobi and defeat him.

Legit theories are legit..


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 19, 2012)

Asherah said:


> What? How is it clear?
> 
> There is no explanation for why, if Obito indeed survived the rocks, he didn't just get his ass back to his friends and family in Konoha long before Rin even died. You only have conjecture based on nothing.



If he was saved and healed by Madara/Zetsu for some time could be a reason he didn't climb back out.  He finds out Rin is dead in some awful way.  He hates war and the ninja way and wants peace but now sees a way in Madara's Moons Eye plan.  He seemed to have strong ideals and passion and those are usually the main type of characters to get theirs morality warped into something extreme/evil/means justifies the end.

We've seen characters progress fast.  We saw Obito gain his sharigan and seem to become on Kakashi's jounin level.  Teleporting and phasing as a physical eye tool shouldn't even take long to master.


----------



## Saru (Jul 19, 2012)

I don't think so... -_-


----------



## AlphaRooster (Jul 19, 2012)

Read chapter 404. Kisame clearly recognizes him and establishes him as a former Mizukage.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2012)

I won't accept it


----------



## Saru (Jul 19, 2012)

Future Sasuke is more likely than Tobi. 

65% chance that Tobi is from Konoha.


----------



## iJutsu (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi is an Obito clone. Too bad Madara hadn't perfected cloning yet, so he has accelerated aging syndrome you usually see in failed clones in other stories.


----------



## Summers (Jul 19, 2012)

So because Kakashi and Tobi are in the same chapter and Tobi has addressed him, speaking of info that is common knowledge; it must be Tobi? C'mon.

Dont worry though Tobi=Obito fans, I see how these forums work, as  clutch time gets close more and more people will start covering their asses so they dont feel wrong. They will say "Well I thought it was possible" "I was rooting for it, just couldn't back it up" "Now that I give it a chance, I can see it happening". Its was epic bullshit, it happened when people though Tobi was going to be revealed when Naruto first encountered Tobi and they all get headfaked.


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 19, 2012)

@raizen

I totally agree with you.

Well, guess this is the only way to deal with trolls.


----------



## SonicTron (Jul 19, 2012)

one of the same old tobi = obito theories that's been expressed for years now


----------



## John Connor (Jul 19, 2012)

iJutsu said:


> Tobi is an Obito clone. Too bad Madara hadn't perfected cloning yet, so he has accelerated aging syndrome you usually see in failed clones in other stories.


lol...

Sakura said Sasuke grew too fast and theorized drugs were the cause

if Tobi is Obito then half his body would be Zetsu goo which has a strong life force which also could have accelerated body growth


----------



## DejaEntendu (Jul 19, 2012)

How exactly is responding to your thread topic trolling? I asked you two questions about your overused theory, despite the unwarranted negative reputation for disagreeing, and got no response. I'll take your generic resort to omgztroll response as a you have no answer. Sonic Tron said the same thing I did. Is he trolling too?


----------



## raizen28 (Jul 19, 2012)

Itαchi said:


> @raizen
> 
> I totally agree with you.
> 
> Well, guess this is the only way to deal with trolls.


Now. Let see

Naruto said who are you "Tobi"
He said "no one"

If he is infact Obito then when he said "no one" in that response means Tobi never existed. Its really Obito going by a False Name and Persona so there really is no such thing as "Tobi" if its Obito or anyone else so That means Tobi is infact "no one"


----------



## DejaEntendu (Jul 19, 2012)

raizen28 said:


> Now. Let see
> 
> Naruto said who are you "Tobi"
> He said "no one"
> ...



What Tobi meant by his "I am no one." response was explained directly after. He meant that Tobi was simply the embodiment of his plan and ideals, and that it didn't matter who was behind the mask. It wasn't a play on words to back up nonsense theories. Obviously "Tobi" never existed as a person. Every alias fits that criteria. Oh, I think Tobi is Hinata. Clearly since Hinata is moonlighting as Tobi, there is no actual Tobi, so he is no one... Honestly, think things through...


----------



## raizen28 (Jul 19, 2012)

Yeah your right he meant "Tobi"the plan and ideals  and didnt matter about who was Tobi behind the mask cuz there is no Tobi if its Obito

Thus there isnt a Real alias such as Tobi. Doesnt exist


----------



## Rolling~Star (Jul 19, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Why else would Kakashi be there? Its a plot device. Kakashi didn't even take part againts Pain when Naruto fought him, and Tobi seems to know everything about Kakashi. His Kamui, his whole life, and now he also knows Gai. Its pretty obvious its him.
> 
> Madara is elsewhere, and no one else knows Kakashi & Gai, not Madara who was long dead.



Tobi has intel on just about everyone in this manga, so your argument doesn't really hold.

Also, I don't think Kakashi would have been much help to Naruto when he fought Pain, what with being dead and all


----------



## raizen28 (Jul 19, 2012)

Wait so you neg me for "lack of comedy"
Its a breakthrough when the "lack" makes someone mad
Hahahahahah


----------



## oricon (Jul 19, 2012)

As soon as Tobi said "Kakashi you always open your mouth so easily" instantly made me believe its Obito in this chapter.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 19, 2012)

DejaEntendu said:


> Yeah, yeah. Used the wrong name. Hilarious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah we've never seen sob stories change people.  Obito was a passionate guy kind of like Naruto.  Madara seems to want to do the Moons Eye Plan because he's Madara Uchiha and domination is his middle name.  Tobi seems to really care about the peace of it.  It would make sense from a perspective if Obito was bitter about Rin, War, being crushed, the ninja world etc that his passion would twist into something like Tobi.  Even Itachi forshadowed it.


----------



## Asherah (Jul 19, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> If he was saved and healed by Madara/Zetsu for some time could be a reason he didn't climb back out.  He finds out Rin is dead in some awful way.  He hates war and the ninja way and wants peace but now sees a way in Madara's Moons Eye plan.  He seemed to have strong ideals and passion and those are usually the main type of characters to get theirs morality warped into something extreme/evil/means justifies the end.



That sounds like a fanfic. This is the problem here: the Obito theory is based on assumptions and jumping to conclusions. There is no coherent theory because there are far too many gaps in explaining how Obito could've become Tobi. There are too many problems. Sure, you can explain them away with conjecture, but you can make the Ramen Guy become Tobi with conjecture, too. This is not a done deal and Tobi is certainly not "obviously" or "clearly" Obito. I wish people would take a step back instead of picking and choosing the bits that suit their favourite theory.


----------



## Somnus (Jul 19, 2012)

Considering that Tobi is indeed Obito

Well if we think that Obito was very much like Naruto before he was smashed, there may be some kind of "irony" for him being Tobi, having Tobi be a "dark what-if" version of Naruto. 

I don't who else it could be anyway, but surely there was someone helping Obito to become Tobi. Be it Zetsu or someone else.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 19, 2012)

Rolling~Star said:


> Tobi has intel on just about everyone in this manga, so your argument doesn't really hold.
> 
> Also, I don't think Kakashi would have been much help to Naruto when he fought Pain, what with being dead and all



You know Kakashi and Guy are way out of place in this battle of super powered fighters.  There connection to Obito seems to be the only reason they're there.

It's obvious that what Tobi said to Kakashi was personal with a personal tone.  Not just personal knowledge.  It obviously tickled Kakashi's memory and alarmed Guy.  Then he says something personal about Guy which I admit could have been seen on a Zetsu spy.


----------



## Asherah (Jul 19, 2012)




----------



## polskanaruto (Jul 19, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> Pretty much. No one else makes sense.
> 
> It can't be a new character, as Tobi himself is holding onto that mask pretty tightly.
> 
> ...



yo best explanation and the comment of you below !!! 
you should make a thread of these 2 comments because this were the perfekt words for this theory ...


----------



## Rolling~Star (Jul 19, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> You know Kakashi and Guy are way out of place in this battle of super powered fighters.  There connection to Obito seems to be the only reason they're there.
> 
> It's obvious that what Tobi said to Kakashi was personal with a personal tone.  Not just personal knowledge.  It obviously tickled Kakashi's memory and alarmed Guy.  Then he says something personal about Guy which I admit could have been seen on a Zetsu spy.



You could argue that for Kakashi, but why Guy? I'm pretty sure he knew Obito, but I doubt they were even close friends. 

Remember how Tobi told Sasuke that Izuna offered his eyes for Madara? Tobi even clenched his own arm right after he said that. Which seems more personal?


----------



## Shiny (Jul 19, 2012)

He doens't lacked info,He just said minato was really fast Tobito still up stop deny it,I knew all the time


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 19, 2012)

Asherah said:


> That sounds like a fanfic. This is the problem here: the Obito theory is based on assumptions and jumping to conclusions. There is no coherent theory because there are far too many gaps in explaining how Obito could've become Tobi. There are too many problems. Sure, you can explain them away with conjecture, but you can make the Ramen Guy become Tobi with conjecture, too. This is not a done deal and Tobi is certainly not "obviously" or "clearly" Obito. I wish people would take a step back instead of picking and choosing the bits that suit their favourite theory.



Lol, if it wasn't theory than it would be canon.  Obito theory has more circumstancial evidence than most other theories.  A lot of other folks rely on time travel and immortality

Obviously, Tobi having the opposite dominate eye of Obito's with similar powers is the biggest clue.  Its blatantly obvious.

Tobi's plan is to use a MS tech but we've never seen his MS.  Obviously if he has MS and the pattern is hidden, it is because it would reveal something.  Every MS pattern eye known is accounted for except Obito.

Rin's death is a mystery for no obvious reason. 

A Uchiha that would have an impact of being hidden.  Most other Tobi idenities would make no difference being hidden or exposed this long.  Shishui would as well I guess for the right people.  But current the out of place guys at the super power battle are Kakashi and Guy who getting personal comments from Tobi that have a personal enough tone to alarm both of them.  

Of course nothing is settled but it's not far fetched.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

So, everybody agrees?


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

Raventhal has given really valid reasons for Tobi being Obito, but people are just ignoring it. I find it quite sad, really. If you don't think it's possible, you don't believe the theory, correct? So, when someone actually provides valid points to support said theory, you ignore them. Sorry, but, that's not how debating works.

People need to understand this manga to really understand how plausible the Tobito theory is. If you look at the established themes for villains in this manga and at Japanese mythology, no one else makes sense.



T-Bag said:


> im actually analyzing it just fine. this is why it doesnt make sense. the ones that aren't analyzing are the ones who support this bum ass theory


You're not analyzing anything. You're just saying something can't be but providing no actual evidence as to _why_ it can't be.



Prodigy94 said:


> Something that remains sketchy still however is the part on Obito's timeline. Surely strength isn't enough for Obito to be able to do all those things in 3 years which should take at least a 1 to heal his body to it's optimal level and that's assuming other treatment was introduced by Madara.
> 
> Training would more than likely be halfassed because well his body was crushed, half of his brain. He should be in a hospital bed or in an underground hidden lab cave somewhere healing for at least half of the 3 years...


No parts of his brain were crushed. If you look, the boulder clearly didn't go through his head.


----------



## Target (Jul 19, 2012)

yes dont think he was waiting a whole 5 years from when he was a student(of the 4th hokage) sacrificing himself for his friends till he was a pile of mush


----------



## Reddan (Jul 19, 2012)

Nope. Back then he was probably Madara in spirit, but I think Obito has regained control of the body. Right now it definitely sounds like a twisted and bitter Obito.


----------



## Reddan (Jul 19, 2012)

Easley said:


> Madara died after awakening the Rinnegan, when Nagato was a child. Obito wasn't even born. He expected his resurrection via Rinne Tensei. Tobi must have met Madara to know about the Moon's Eye plan and Izuna, but Obito is far too young. I don't believe he controlled Yagura, massacred the Uchiha, extracted Kyuubi to destroy Konoha. Why does he have a grudge against the Uchiha?
> 
> "Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?"
> 
> Why would Obito say that?



We were told Madara died at the VOTE. We now know that is false. To me the long haired masked man, with the scar on his chest and a sword is just too much of a coincidence. I bet the real Madara died after the Uchiha massacre. 

Madara would not trust an underling to bring him back. Orochimaru and Madara are very similar. He probably came up with a similar kind of jutsu to the curse mark. It allowed him to place a large part of his consciousness in Obito. Similar to what Minato did with Naruto. However, Tobi being evil took control of the body.

At some point, though Obito gained control of his own body and being bitter and fed up with the ninja world is carrying out Madara's plan. The man in control of Tobi now is amost certainly Obito, though this was not always the case.


----------



## fralamp88 (Jul 19, 2012)

I don't know if anyone has ever said this in the thread, but Obito turning spiteful and full of hate could also be a result of the fact that he was considered the shittiest fodder of the Uchiha. The Uchihas themselves considered him nothing, he didn't manage to develop the Sharingan, plus his behaviour was so dissimilar from the general emo Uchiha style, maybe even the whole village considered him an idiot. 
He felt that. And then, when he finally manages to develop the Sharingan, he dies! What the hell! And he gave that douchebag his other eye! And the idiot with the damn eye didn't even manage to do the one thing he wished for: protecting Rin. 
I would be kinda pissed, too.


----------



## gabzilla (Jul 19, 2012)

It's not 100% confirmed because this is Kishimoto after all, but Obito is the prime suspect imo.



AMtrack said:


> It's a foregone conclusion, *just no one wants to give the "those crazy Obito theorists" their props.*  It was practically obvious from day one though...the name alone is suspect.  Plus the mask.  Plus Kakashi Gaiden being the only gaiden ever written by Kishi.  Plus their sharingans having similar powers (tobi and Kakashi).  Plus the Zetsu goo.  I mean seriously even Zetsu is a bloody plot device.
> 
> This is about as bad as when Kishi thought he was being sneaky about who Naruto's father was.



Yep



Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> The fact that you think Obito went from being a dead Genin to going toe to toe with Minato in one year while being this sure of yourself is beyond priceless.





Kyrie Eleison said:


> Perhaps, what's going to be funny is trying to explain how he became 5-7 inches taller and went from being a pathetic little brat who could barely awaken his sharingan shortly before his death to being a highly talented shinobi and manipulator who had mastered the sharingan enough to fight Minato and control a tailed beast in the time span of less than a year and a half.
> 
> Even if it is Obito it's going to be hard to explain his rapid growth over such a short period of time...especially considering that he wasn't anything special by Uchiha standards...



Actually, that is not really hard to explain. He could have been posessed by Madara. Or maybe they merged. Or maybe Zetsu had something to do with it.

Seriously, Orochimaru was hiding in Anko's curse seal.




Namikaze Minato Flash said:


> Obito was content with his ninja way even until the end. What could've possibly happened to turn him so twisted after his parting words with Kakashi and his honorable death...?



Yeah, how did Sasuke go from wanting to protect his precious people to trying to kill them?
How did Gaara go from sweet kid to murderer to Kazekage?
How did Nagato go from sweet kid to i need a sammich mass murderer?

If there's one thing this manga is consistent about, is that people can be manipulated and corrupted. And easily! 




Rolling~Star said:


> You could argue that for Kakashi, but why Guy? I'm pretty sure he knew Obito, but I doubt they were even close friends.
> 
> Remember how Tobi told Sasuke that Izuna offered his eyes for Madara? Tobi even clenched his own arm right after he said that. Which seems more personal?



Asuma is dead
Kurenai is probably still pregant
Iruka has no place in the battle because he's well... Iruka.

There are no other named characters that are 1) strong enough to be in the middle of a big battle and 2) knew Kakashi when he was a kid


----------



## jacamo (Jul 19, 2012)

the Obito theory is not plausible... there are too many plotholes

the most obvious plothole is that Nagato is older than Minato, and is therefore MUCH older than Obito... so if Tobi is Obito, how could Obito have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan if Obito wasnt born yet? 

there are as many as 11 plotholes... maybe more!



> chapter references are all from narutobase
> 
> *Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504)*
> There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.
> ...


----------



## Sarry (Jul 19, 2012)

Maybe the eyes, since Tobi seems to be connected to Zetzu or that plant. But his personality definitely resembles a more careful Madara. 


Unlike Obito, whose main ideology was Will of fire; Hell, he was the one who taught Kakashi to love his comrades the way he does.


----------



## Syntaxis (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi gave Nagato his Rinnegan when he was just a child. This happened back when Obito was not even born, or at most about 8 years old.

Unless "Tobi" are multiple individuals over the course of time it makes no sense at all. Obito could be simply the most recent iteration of Tobi, but why... why would you take a damaged Uchiha body when you could've taken an infant Sasuke, Itachi or any other still living Uchiha?

The timelines with Obito, the 4th Mizukage, Nagato, the Rinnegan, etc. don't match up even remotely. That's the biggest issue here.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 19, 2012)

the Obito theory is not plausible... there are too many plotholes

the most obvious plothole is that Nagato is older than Minato, and is therefore MUCH older than Obito... so if Tobi is Obito, how could Obito have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan if Obito wasnt born yet? 

there are as many as 11 plotholes... maybe more!



> chapter references are all from narutobase
> 
> *Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504)*
> There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.
> ...


----------



## NO (Jul 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> the Obito theory is not plausible... there are too many plotholes
> 
> the most obvious plothole is that Nagato is older than Minato, and is therefore MUCH older than Obito... so if Tobi is Obito, how could Obito have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan if Obito wasnt born yet?
> 
> there are as many as 11 plotholes... maybe more!


You should also quote the 2-3 people who replied to that guy and shot down every one of his acclaimed plotholes.


----------



## Asherah (Jul 19, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Lol, if it wasn't theory than it would be canon.  Obito theory has more circumstancial evidence than most other theories.  A lot of other folks rely on time travel and immortality
> 
> Obviously, Tobi having the opposite dominate eye of Obito's with similar powers is the biggest clue.  Its blatantly obvious.
> 
> ...



Oh, I'm not discounting it's a possibility. Personally it makes zero narrative sense to me, but that isn't always a high priority for manga creators. What I don't understand is the absolute certainty in this thread and all the other ones like it. Everyone is really jumping the gun, believing their personal inferences to be rock-solid evidence and I don't know why. It really gets my back up. I think the identity of Tobi is a pretty interesting debate, but there's little worthwhile discussion in the threads on some of the most pointed evidence because lots of people are so keen to push their pet theory. It all descends into meaningless presumptions with no facts which isn't very helpful.


----------



## Gonder (Jul 19, 2012)

Syntaxis said:


> Tobi gave Nagato his Rinnegan when he was just a child. This happened back when Obito was not even born, or at most about 8 years old.
> 
> Unless "Tobi" are multiple individuals over the course of time it makes no sense at all. Obito could be simply the most recent iteration of Tobi, but why... why would you take a damaged Uchiha body when you could've taken an infant Sasuke, Itachi or any other still living Uchiha?
> 
> The timelines with Obito, the 4th Mizukage, Nagato, the Rinnegan, etc. don't match up even remotely. That's the biggest issue here.



tobi calls himself madara and you want me to believe he gave nagato rinnegan the dude is a compulsive liar


----------



## Asherah (Jul 19, 2012)

jayjay32 said:


> You should also quote the 2-3 people who replied to that guy and shot down every one of his acclaimed plotholes.



Several of them weren't shot down. They were just countered with speculation based on no evidence or proof. Anyone can explain anything in the manga by making their own fanfic up. 

Also, one guy's theory relied on the fact that long-haired Tobi and short-haired Tobi were two different people, despite Kisame visually recognising both of them as the same person.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 19, 2012)

jayjay32 said:


> You should also quote the 2-3 people who replied to that guy and shot down every one of his acclaimed plotholes.



they used speculation and conjecture

none of the plotholes got shot down

my favourites are plothole no. 4, 5, and of course 11


----------



## gabzilla (Jul 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> the Obito theory is not plausible... there are too many plotholes
> 
> the most obvious plothole is that Nagato is older than Minato, and is therefore MUCH older than Obito... so if Tobi is Obito, how could Obito have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan if Obito wasnt born yet?
> 
> there are as many as 11 plotholes... maybe more!



Points 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9 and 10 can be explained easily: Tobi is a merge between Obito and a part of Madara, done by Orochimaru or Zetsu or whatever.

The personality change can be a product of extreme trauma and manipulation.

Tobi being too tall could be an artist mistake, is not like Kishimoto hasn't made mistakes with height before.

It may not be _well written_, but is not as farfetched as you think it is.


----------



## Gonder (Jul 19, 2012)

Asherah said:


> Several of them weren't shot down. They were just countered with speculation based on no evidence or proof. Anyone can explain anything in the manga by making their own fanfic up.
> 
> Also, one guy's theory relied on the fact that long-haired Tobi and short-haired *Tobi were two different people, despite Kisame visually recognising both of them as the same person*.



zetsu Substitute Technique


----------



## Good Boy (Jul 19, 2012)

*Tobi's Real Identidy 100% Confirmed*

It has come to my attention that many of the Tobi theories, jokes or not forget that Kishi does have inspiration from other sources. The Madara Uchiha already being dead twist had me thinking about The Patriots from Metal Gear Solid 2. Establishing the Metal Gear Solid series as the primary influence for plot decisions we can really figure out who Tobi actually is. Metal Gear Solid 4 was all based off retcons of the series previous and weird story inconsistencies. Looking at Kabuto's backstory we see retcons all over the place, clear inspiration from Kojima. Tobi might have been Obito at the start of the story, but authors can change the final vision and the established foreshadowing might not reflect the end. Note Tobi has been consistently referring to himself as 'no one' and 'nobody', instead of taking this too far, we should look at the statements at face value in an ever rapidly changing story.

Not Obito, a Madara clone,Kagami, Shusui, or even Future Trunks people

Tobi's is really

*Spoiler*: __ 



a bunch of nanomachines


----------



## NO (Jul 19, 2012)

I am probably the only one who can appreciate this post.

lol'd hard at future trunks (sauce joke).


----------



## jacamo (Jul 19, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> Points 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9 and 10 can be explained easily: Tobi is a merge between Obito and a part of Madara, done by Orochimaru or Zetsu or whatever.
> 
> The personality change can be a product of extreme trauma and manipulation.
> 
> ...



with speculation and conjecture, only some of them can be explained

but do you really think Kishi is going to spend the time and effort to explain all of these plotholes? the fans will demand it, too much that dont make sense

especially plothole 11... NAGATO IS OLDER THAN OBITO

*i mean come on!!!*


----------



## AVC (Jul 19, 2012)

> the Obito theory is not plausible... there are too many plotholes
> 
> the most obvious plothole is that Nagato is older than Minato, and is therefore MUCH older than Obito... so if Tobi is Obito, how could Obito have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan if Obito wasnt born yet?
> 
> ...



Well and I have the answer to all of those plot holes...


It's a time-traveler Obito.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 19, 2012)

^perfect explanation 

but also a cheap cop-out by Kishi


----------



## BroKage (Jul 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> THE BIGGEST PLOTHOLE OF THEM ALL
> 
> Plothole Number 11: Nagato is much older than Obito
> 
> Why is this important? Because Tobi GAVE Nagato the Rinnegan. In other words, it is impossible for Obito to have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan because Obito is much younger than Nagato.


That's really not the biggest plothole.

It can easily be explained by Tobi lying as usual, and MADARA having really been the one to give Nagato the Rinnegan. After all, we know Madara and Nagato have met.

For the record, Konan considered Tobi's claim to be BS.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 19, 2012)

I have found plot holes with EVERY character identity on Tobi, I'll address them later, but the one him sighting giving the eyes to pein and being younger than him, that is simply answerable because BOTH Nagato AND Konan actually believed him to be Madara himself at the time. And he was keeping up that appearance.



Asherah said:


> Oh, I'm not discounting it's a possibility. Personally it makes zero narrative sense to me, but that isn't always a high priority for manga creators. What I don't understand is the absolute certainty in this thread and all the other ones like it. Everyone is really jumping the gun, believing their personal inferences to be rock-solid evidence and I don't know why. It really gets my back up. I think the identity of Tobi is a pretty interesting debate, but there's little worthwhile discussion in the threads on some of the most pointed evidence because lots of people are so keen to push their pet theory. It all descends into meaningless presumptions with no facts which isn't very helpful.



Well if you read the last handful of pages, you SHOULD notice that the only ones who are cementing 100% nothing else are the ones saying it isn't obito. Every other Obito theorist here has been saying it is a possibility while the deniers simply say impossible, it isn't, can't be, as if they are writing the story. These are the same closed minded people who made fun of the juubi theorist when he made it a year or two before the juubi even was mentioned.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 19, 2012)

I really don't get the hate for Tobi = Obito. At least 75% of people would be greatly disappointed if this was Tobi's identity and I have seen tons of people even suggest they would quite the manga if it turned out to be true.


----------



## Kai (Jul 19, 2012)

Syntaxis said:


> Unless "Tobi" are multiple individuals over the course of time it makes no sense at all.


That could very well be possible... either that, or he's a culmination of multiple individuals [over time]. Sharingan, full knowledge on all matters, incomplete body (zetsu goo), and Uzumaki like chains, and what do you get? Ingredients from a variety of different sources. In that respect, you get "unification" of people yet no established identity ("No one") at the same time.

I think the identity of Tobi will become clear once Kishi goes in depth with Madara's goal and what he started in the first place. There's a reason why Tobi wanted the world to believe his identity was Madara. In order to understand Tobi, we need to understand Madara first; it all starts with him.


----------



## AVC (Jul 19, 2012)

> ^perfect explanation
> 
> but also a cheap cop-out by Kishi
> __________________



Yeah it's kinda cheap like that, but with the perfect explanation I'm gonna give it to you, you gonna see it's not that cheap at all. It?s a theory I made a few weeks ago:




So it begins with the day that Obito supposed died with the rockfalls, but instead of dying he activated his Magenkyo Sharingan for the first time and teleported out of there before the rocks crushed down on him. Like it was his first time doing it, he didn't know what he was doing, but because of using all or almost all his chakra on that move, instead of just teleporting away, he somehow teleported into the past, in the time of Konoha founding. By the time he arrived, he was almost dying, not just because half of his body was crushed, but also because he was almost out of chakra for that move. It was also because of that time-traveling space-time migration that he have that kind of spiral pattern carved on his face that matches the first mask we saw him using in the manga.

But he didn't die, he was found out by non other than Madara Uchiha, who had the luck of seeing Obito teleporting right before his eyes. Intrigued for what he just saw there, he saved him. After healed him, Madara and Obito had a talk on who they are, just for Obito find out he just traveled to the past. After they talk, Madara decided to make Obito his student and his right-hand for doing his goals.Madara trainded Obito to use his eye and taught him everything he knows. Madara taught him the risks of his Space-Time Migration jutsu, that he can't no longer travel to other times because he could just possibly die due to the extensive amount of chakra he would have to use, and that from then on, he would be nobody because all his bonds belonged to the past, in other time, that he can no longer go.

Time passes and Madara and Obito had formulated the Eye of the Moon Plan. At the time of Madara's death, Madara instructs Obito the continuation of the Plan, his ressurection through Rinne Tensei, and to Obito use his name as his fake name if he needs too. At that time, Obito, through Madara influence, had become a different man that he used to be and become what we now know as Tobi.

And the rest we can figure it out what happened.


----------



## gabzilla (Jul 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> with speculation and conjecture, only some of them can be explained
> 
> but do you really think Kishi is going to spend the time and effort to explain all of these plotholes? the fans will demand it, too much that dont make sense
> 
> ...



Your mistake here is thinking Kishimoto gives a flying fuck about explaining what people want him to explain. He can easily use one chapter, add flashback, say Madara manipulated/used/whatever Obito because he was dying and Tobi is a corrupted mix of Tobi and Madara. Then move on. Is not like he hasn't done this before.

So what if he's older? Easily explained: Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan. There, done.


----------



## principito (Jul 19, 2012)

Well honestly sometimes the obvious isnt as obvious

Remember PAIN?

NOBODY ever imagined pain was actually six bodies.... some people thought it was Minato LOL or Naruto's brother and shit.

So though OBITO is the blunt obvious.... i mean... the hair, the one sharingan, i'd say he knows Minato and kakashi and people from Konoha in that time range.... etc.  sO yes.... its very possible..... and about the "Madara" part and the plan... well, he might have found that PLAN in the SECRET Uchiha hideout.... u know since all Uchihas stack up the secrets there

But of course it also could be something else


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 19, 2012)

1: All of this can be explained away by tutelage from Madara the one who knows it all.

2: Can be explained by brainwashing, anger, sharingan genjutsu

3: He could be combining his time wait with madara's wait who also was waiting, heard stories, makes him feel like it. Even then 2 years is a long wait, like naruto going how long he waited to see sasuke after time skip.

4: Kushina knew obito, or obito could have gained some of madara's chakra. Yes there are explanations. personally this is why i assumed izuna at one point to be the highest most likely. but again not an impossibility for obito too.

5: His body is composed of a lot of zetsu goo obviously, and 2 years, hes not too tall, look how tall the sound 5 were, and they were the same age...
look back how tall kakashi and gai were during the kyuubi attack, not short at all.

6: He didn't have time to figure it out, nor was it important to him, he thought of madara first but dismissed it, he didn't think obito could be so powerful but he had the hax jutsu which made him so.

7: we don't know when madara died. or exactly how nagato got those eyes.

8: hearing stories, he was pretending to be madara at the time.

9:  cool that is when he was 'madara'

10education from madara. 

11 how do we know madara didn't give his eyes to him in some way, again this is still a mystery.


not plot holes, just points that need addressing. i'll give a better detail analyses later but i gotta go to work


----------



## AoshiKun (Jul 19, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> Your mistake here is thinking Kishimoto gives a flying fuck about explaining what people want him to explain. He can easily use one chapter, add flashback, say Madara manipulated/used/whatever Obito because he was dying and Tobi is a corrupted mix of Tobi and Madara. Then move on. Is not like he hasn't done this before.
> 
> So what if he's older? Easily explained: Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan. There, done.


Naruto timeline is a mess already.


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> the Obito theory is not plausible... there are too many plotholes
> 
> the most obvious plothole is that Nagato is older than Minato, and is therefore MUCH older than Obito... so if Tobi is Obito, how could Obito have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan if Obito wasnt born yet?
> 
> there are as many as 11 plotholes... maybe more!


You do realize that this chapter pretty much disproves the Kagami theory, right?

Like Mistshadow said, none of those are plotholes, just points that need addressing. They'd only be plotholes if Kishi made Tobi Obito, and didn't give an explanation for any of those. But he obviously will explain everything if Tobi is indeed Obito. So, stop using that stuff as an argument. Serously, you post it everywhere. -.-


----------



## Sword Sage (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi may not be Obito he maybe this guy!




The name of the card is 'The Masked Man'.

I heard he was called Tobi in the Au of the new movie. If you think about it and look closely, those lines on Tobis face could not be wrinkles rather lines like Naruto and Silver and Gold bros. have the same markings as Naruto.

He can travel through deminsions and he has been implanting sharingans and rinnegan who knows. 

Plus you've seen his bare arm that is not old but young.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 19, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> Your mistake here is thinking Kishimoto gives a flying fuck about explaining what people want him to explain. He can easily use one chapter, add flashback, say Madara manipulated/used/whatever Obito because he was dying and Tobi is a corrupted mix of Tobi and Madara. Then move on. Is not like he hasn't done this before.
> 
> So what if he's older? Easily explained: Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan. There, done.



see what i mean... to explain all the plotholes Kishi almost *has to* change the facts - Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan, not Madara

what else do you want to change?

now if youre going to say Tobi lied or Kishi will change the facts... guess what that is? speculation and conjecture... as it stands, plotholes cant be explained


----------



## AoshiKun (Jul 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> see what i mean... to explain all the plotholes Kishi almost *has to* change the facts - Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan, not Madara
> 
> what else do you want to change?
> 
> now if youre going to say Tobi lied or Kishi will change the facts... guess what that is? speculation and conjecture... as it stands, plotholes cant be explained


Tobi talked like if he was Madara so when he said that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan it could be Madara the one who actually did.

Tobi also said Rinnegan was his to begin with however we know Madara was the only one to awake Rinnegan after Rikudou.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> 1: All of this can be explained away by tutelage from Madara the one who knows it all.
> 
> 2: Can be explained by brainwashing, anger, sharingan genjutsu
> 
> ...



speculation... conjecture... no facts... no scans

you even *change *the facts for plothole 11

all that is left are


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

fukkengan said:


> Everyone is forgetting that a shocking reveal doesnt necessary means a character that we already know.
> 
> Its being pointed in several ways that Tobi is Obito, the author wants us to think that way, so its probably someone else. Someone with a huge importance but at the same time someone we have never seen.


It can't be a new character, otherwise the mask would be pointless. And, Kishi can be pretty damn obvious, so it's more likely that Tobi is actually Obito. I mean, how obvious was it that Minato was Naruto's father, or that Pain was Nagato? People need to realize how Tobi being Obito would perfectly tie up all the loose ends in the story.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 19, 2012)

AoshiKun said:


> Tobi talked like if he was Madara so when he said that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan it could be Madara the one who actually did.
> 
> Tobi also said Rinnegan was his to begin with however we know Madara was the only one to awake Rinnegan after Rikudou.



yeh, so Kishi would have to change the facts

thats my point


----------



## Kahvehane (Jul 19, 2012)

I will subscribe to no identity theory. I shall simply wait for the mask to be broken off and the mystery ended.


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

Matrix XZ said:


> Tobi may not be Obito he maybe this guy!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nah, nice theory but, he was just introduced for the movie, which isn't canon, so it's not a possibility. The lines on tobi's face look more like scars than whisker marks. That guy is probably that masked guy with the insect mask in the movie.



jacamo said:


> speculation... conjecture... no facts... no scans
> 
> you even *change *the facts for plothole 11
> 
> all that is left are


Lol, you do realize that all Tobi theories are speculation, right? The reasoning he gave was valid. Really I wonder how you'll react if Tobi is revealed to be Obito.


Btw, personality change is not a plothole if Kishi explains it, which he obviously will if Tobi is Obito. Nagato changed. I don't see you calling that a plothole. Neji changed, I don't see you calling that a plothole. Only Obito. Obviously if Tobi is Obito, it can be explained how he turned evil. If it's explained then it won't be a plothole because it doesn't have any problems fitting in with the plot. Don't say there's no way it could be explained. There are already a few things to suggest a possible motive for Obito. Now, just because YOU don't think there's an explanation, doesn't mean that there isn't. You are not Kishi. NO ONE has all the facts except for him.

Besides, at this point, who else could he really be? Don't say Kagami. Kishi wouldn't introduce Tobi's true identity 200 chapters after his introduction. If anything Kagami might have been a red herring. Although, I doubt Kishi even intended for people to think he was Tobi anyway. And, Kagami wouldn't know Kakashi and Guy that well. It's just unrealistic.


----------



## Freechoice (Jul 19, 2012)

*Tobi is Naruto.

Naruto is Sasuke.

Sasuke is Might Gai.

Might Gai is Kakashi.

Kakashi is Gaara.

Gaara is Tsunade.

Tsunade is Jiraiya.

Jiraiya is dead.

/thread.*


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 19, 2012)

Descent of the Lion said:


> More than three years ago in manga time Naruto couldn't even do Bunshin.
> 
> This alone proves the op to be a bad argument.



Naruto wasn't crushed by rocks, either.
Naruto had a steady stream of people considered to be among the top living/dead ninjas defending him and teaching him advanced techs.

Your point is moot.


----------



## Freechoice (Jul 19, 2012)

*Tobi is Naruto.

Naruto is Sasuke.

Sasuke is Might Gai.

Might Gai is Kakashi.

Kakashi is Gaara.

Gaara is Tsunade.

Tsunade is Jiraiya.

Jiraiya is dead.

/thread.*


----------



## Velocity (Jul 19, 2012)

*The main reason Tobi almost certainly can't be Obito*

Normally I don't actually give a damn about this sort of thing, but a lot of people are up in arms about this particular theory - whether they're bullishly supporting it or determined to ignore it. Yet there is one major flaw in the entire Tobito theory and it lies within "time".

Tobi attacked Konohagakure less than a year after Obito died. Kakashi was 14 when Obito died, correct? Tobi attacked Konohagakure on the day Naruto was born, 16 years ago. Kakashi is 29-30, therefore making him around 14 the day the Nine Tails attacked. Ergo, less than a year passed between the Kakashi Gaiden arc and the time Tobi attacked Konohagakure.

So, for Tobi to be Obito, he would have needed to grow 20.8cms, over eight inches, in height in less than a year. He would have needed to gain a summoning contract with the Nine Tails while the Biju was sealed inside Kushina. He would have needed to advance the crushed Sharingan in his right eye to its Mangekyo Sharingan state (assuming his reverse-Kamui is indeed a Mangekyo jutsu). He would have needed to somehow modify his chakra so that it appears, to the Nine Tails, to be familiar. Most importantly, he would have needed to go from a pretty crappy thirteen year old Chunin to a ninja capable of genjutsu'ing the Nine Tails and fighting the Hokage _at the same time_.

For the sake of argument, I'm ignoring the dramatic change in personality. After all, it's not fair to ask someone to explain how a thirteen year old child can go from a stubborn and lazy coward to a sadistic and calculating monster willing to kill children, annihilate his entire clan and unleash a monster who'd massacre everyone he once called family or friend. I'm even going to ignore the problem with having _Kakashi's_ closest friend become _Naruto's_ final boss.

So, anyway, yes, that's the single greatest flaw in the Tobito theory. There simply isn't _time_. Even if you try to wrangle it so Tobi is secretly the Six Million Dollar Man, where a mostly-dead Obito was taken by Zetsu, his limbs replaced and his mind horribly distorted by brainwashing, you're still left with a character who could never have attained the power necessary to do what he did in such a short space of time.

I don't really care who Tobi actually is, but Obito is easily the least likely.


----------



## AceBizzle (Jul 19, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I really don't get the hate for Tobi = Obito. At least 75% of people would be greatly disappointed if this was Tobi's identity and *I have seen tons of people even suggest they would quite the manga if it turned out to be true*.



I'm one of 'em


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 19, 2012)

I saw this video last week This one never gets old

 So I loled with your post.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi could be someone unexpected. There are good points about Obito, though it's inevitable that there are questionable plotholes, especially the timeline. I'm more lending to someone but not Obito, though it's possible Tobi somehow has his eye or something.


----------



## NO (Jul 19, 2012)

Velocity, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it 2 years after Obito's death?


----------



## BroKage (Jul 19, 2012)

If Kishi really wanted Tobi to be Obito, he could just go "growth spurt" and "Madara haxxed him."

After all, look at how much Kabuto progressed in a short amount of time.


----------



## gabzilla (Jul 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> see what i mean... to explain all the plotholes Kishi almost *has to* change the facts - Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan, not Madara
> 
> what else do you want to change?
> 
> now if youre going to say Tobi lied or Kishi will change the facts... guess what that is? speculation and conjecture... as it stands, plotholes cant be explained



You saying Tobi didn't lie is also speculation and conjecture.  We know Tobi is a big fat liar, after all.


----------



## Velocity (Jul 19, 2012)

jayjay32 said:


> Velocity, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it 2 years after Obito's death?



Nope. Obito died when Kakashi was 13-14. The Nine Tails attacked Konohagakure when Kakashi was 13-14, since Kakashi is 29-30 years old _now_ and the Nine Tail's attack took place 16 years ago on the day Naruto was born.

So it was less than a year.



Shice said:


> If Kishi really wanted Tobi to be Obito, he could just go "growth spurt" and "Madara haxxed him."
> 
> After all, look at how much Kabuto progressed in a short amount of time.



True enough, but you still have to wonder how Obito progressed so much in such a short space of time when Kabuto only did because he was excellent at genetic manipulation and experimented constantly on himself.


----------



## Sword Sage (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Nah, nice theory but, he was just introduced for the movie, which isn't canon, so it's not a possibility. The lines on tobi's face look more like scars than whisker marks. That guy is probably that masked guy with the insect mask in the movie.
> .



Now wait a minute.

The movies story is done by Kishi and the special manga one shot is made by Kishi. So its canon.

They don't look like scars to me in Tobis face, sacra are usually scabby looking not that way.

He is called Masked man as well.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 19, 2012)

i agree the timeline is completely off.. its Kagami imo

read the 11 Obito plotholes in my sig if you have time

so many plotholes... so many


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> see what i mean... to explain all the plotholes Kishi almost *has to* change the facts - Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan, not Madara
> 
> what else do you want to change?
> 
> now if youre going to say Tobi lied or Kishi will change the facts... guess what that is? speculation and conjecture... as it stands, plotholes cant be explained



It?s not changing the facts if a deceptive character was being deceptive.

Tobi has proven himself to be an unreliable source of information. All of his uncorroborated claims are under suspicion at this point.

I?m no proponent of the Tobito theory, but Tobi?s word can?t be used as gospel at this point.


----------



## KyuubiYondaime (Jul 19, 2012)

*So Tobi Is Pissed Off Cause Kakashi Let Rin Die?*

Is That what this all is??

A meaningless grudge?


----------



## Soca (Jul 19, 2012)

problem?


----------



## spankdatbitch (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> i cant accept theories made by 10 year olds just because their hair looks the smae



Are these the same 10 yr olds that predicted Itachi to be good,the akatsuki leader (and Karin) to be related to Naruto etc?If so prepare yourself for yet another embarrassing smack down.You guys just never learn I swear


----------



## Velocity (Jul 19, 2012)

We all love our tragic misguided villains, right? Naruto could do with one more.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 19, 2012)

if you believe the plotholes can be explained, fine 

but just so you know, most of us fans really dont believe the plotholes can be explained... and if Tobi is Obito, the main threads of this forum will turn into "how does Kishi explain XYZ plothole"

it will go on forever


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 19, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> Naruto wasn't crushed by rocks, either.
> Naruto had a steady stream of people considered to be among the top living/dead ninjas defending him and teaching him advanced techs.
> 
> Your point is moot.



Not only does Tobi have a KNOWN way to repair his body [Zetsu], he would have had Madara who, frankly, makes all other shinobi look like children.

My point is apt.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 19, 2012)

lol... looks like a demented Sasuke

as long as its not Obito, im ok with it


----------



## ronniemagia (Jul 19, 2012)

Kishi has been introducing new characters left and right, and many of them don't have a big role in the story anyways. So personally, I'd like it if Tobi ends up being a new character we've never seen before, like someone from the past, from the days of Madara and Hashirama.

Also, I'm not particularly pro the Tobito theory, if anything, because of the many plotholes it has, but still, if it turns out to be true, I'd just accept it as shitty as it is. I mean c'mon, we've been dealing with Kishi's bullcrap for many years now, it's not something new to this guy. He did it, he's doing it, and he'll probably continue on doing it until the end of the manga.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> the Obito theory is not plausible... there are too many plotholes
> 
> the most obvious plothole is that Nagato is older than Minato, and is therefore MUCH older than Obito... so if Tobi is Obito, how could Obito have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan if Obito wasnt born yet?
> 
> there are as many as 11 plotholes... maybe more!



Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan. Tobi was pretending to be Madara, so he also claimed Madara's feats. He also said that Madara's power was his, which is a lie.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> if you believe the plotholes can be explained, fine
> 
> but just so you know, most of us fans really dont believe the plotholes can be explained... and if Tobi is Obito, the main threads of this forum will turn into "how does Kishi explain XYZ plothole"
> 
> it will go on forever



Could you explain why Itachi tortured a kid Sasuke with Tsukuyomi?

Could you explain why Tobi played an idiot when introduced  AND why he joined the very organization he created?

Could you explain why Tobi lied to a dying Konan that he was the real Madara and that he fought Hashirama in VoTE?

Did Kishi explain all of that and way more? NOPE.

If Tobi is Obito then it will be just explained why he become evil and nothing more. Perhaps the DB will explain in more detail...or not.


----------



## SaVaGe609 (Jul 19, 2012)

> Just Accept Tobi is Obito Already



[SP][/SP]

See, when Tobi was first introduced, it was obvious he was Obito. But then he became the final villain, so he couldn't be. He couldn't be. That writing is horrid. But yeah, that's what it's starting to look like.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 19, 2012)

Descent of the Lion said:


> Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan. Tobi was pretending to be Madara, so he also claimed Madara's feats.



Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan, not Madara... but i get your point, Kishi would have to change the facts, which is one way to do it i guess


----------



## fantzipants (Jul 19, 2012)

DejaEntendu said:


> The plot hole is in the thread title. Every Tobi= possibility imaginable has been expressed multiple times. It's just a wait and see which BS explanation comes up at this point.



I stopped reading after a few sentences. Unless my memory fails me Minato did tell kakashi that he later went and retrieved obitos body as confirmation.


----------



## KevKev (Jul 19, 2012)

Ever since what Tobi said in 594 we can narrow it down from someone in Konoha. Obito, Sasuke, and Kagami.

He has to KNOW that person so you can cross off Kagami.

I hate to play the "Look at it's hair!" evidence but if notice that Tobi and *coughcougsasukecoughcough* have the same hair color...so you can cross off obito broskis.


----------



## momo313 (Jul 19, 2012)

You fools over complicate a manga written for 14 yr olds.

TOBI = OBITO. 

END OF STORY.


----------



## Untitled (Jul 19, 2012)

This is cool and all, but it's a fucking fictional manga. People who are against Tobito use this one thing as the "genius infallible logic that proves why it's utterly impossible", completely oblivious to the fact Madara and "Tobi" were in cohorts. Anything could have happened. The one who fought Minato could very easily be the real Madara, if Tobi=Obito anyway.


----------



## ovanz (Jul 19, 2012)

Love triangle, make sense.


----------



## SaVaGe609 (Jul 19, 2012)

.........Maybe Kishi _really_ sucks at number consistency. 





*shrugs*


----------



## ronniemagia (Jul 19, 2012)

that is IF, and a big IF that is, Tobi was Obito ... but either way, it'd be a fucked up reason that makes no sense .... Rin could have died from illness or whatever, how she died is not known to us ... but Kakashi did say that he "could not protect Rin" .. so, i dunno, this shit's too confusing it's not even funny :S


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan, not Madara... but i get your point, Kishi would have to change the facts, which is one way to do it i guess



Tobi also said that Madara's power is his own, which we KNOW is bs. 


Being that Tobi had to steal Rinne from Nagato while Madara had his own, I think its safe to say that Tobi was once again taking credit for something someone else accomplished. Why not just give yourself Rinne if you need it so much?  

From Madara and Kabuto's conversation it sounds like Madara left Tobi and Nagato to inact a plan to resurrect him, and Tobi started violating that plan sometime down the line.


----------



## OGstarcraft (Jul 19, 2012)

i vote zabuza, cause epic.


----------



## Ezekial (Jul 19, 2012)

My theory on why Tobi can't be Obito: 

Common sense


----------



## αce (Jul 19, 2012)

This is my main gripe with the theory.

The Kyuubi recognized Tobi on the spot the moment he was extracted from Kushina. The panels indicated he knew so due to the sharingan, given the fact that it was emphasized greatly. The problem with assuming he is Obito is that the Kyuubi was sealed the entirety of Obito's lifetime and Obito's sharingan was never seen by anyone but Kakashi and Rin. The combination of those two factors makes it impossible for the Kyuubi to be able to recognize Obito's sharingan.

The idea that the Kyuubi would have such a reaction to Tobi, even though he's never seen Obito's sharingan seems farfetched to me. 




Tobi has a gigantic obsession with Hashirama, he's stated he was Madara even on Konan's deathbed. He has a contract seal with the Kyuubi as well as the ability to summon it, something only Madara had the ability to do. He was seen standing on top of Madara's statue as if reminiscing on the past.

Tobi has a very personal connection to Madara given the gigantic hints Kishi threw in our faces. In fact, *the connections to Madara far outweigh the connections to Obito*.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi knows alot.
Go back to when Tobi fought Fu and Torune.
He knew Torune's Jutsu and broke down the concept.
Then, he figured out his clan and said something like Torune's father has a cure or someshit.
Tobi isn't Obito.
Tobi must be an old Uchiha who resided in the Leaf.


----------



## αce (Jul 19, 2012)

Saving this thread for when KyuubiYondaime, Turrin and other turn out to be dead wrong.

Again.

Of course they will say shit like "Oh we said it was his body not soul!" ignoring the fact that they did and can't see the fact that a 28 year old Obito being Tobi is the most retarded thing you can ever possibly think of.



> I really don't get the hate for Tobi = Obito. At least 75% of people  would be greatly disappointed if this was Tobi's identity and I have  seen tons of people even suggest they would quite the manga if it turned  out to be true.



Because we care about good writing?


----------



## Chuck (Jul 19, 2012)

seems original for this series though


----------



## Rain (Jul 19, 2012)

Looks pretty obvious to me that Kishi is just trolling us to believe Tobi is Obito.


----------



## Chuck (Jul 19, 2012)

Velocity said:


> .....
> For the sake of argument, I'm ignoring the dramatic change in personality. After all, it's not fair to ask someone to explain how a thirteen year old child can go from a stubborn and lazy coward to a sadistic and calculating monster willing to kill children, annihilate his entire clan and unleash a monster who'd massacre everyone he once called family or friend. I'm even going to ignore the problem with having *Kakashi's closest friend* become _Naruto's_ final boss.



Gai for final boss 


but seriously though, Kishi has A LOT of timeline inconsistencies, I wouldn't be surprised if he still makes Tobi Obito


----------



## gershwin (Jul 19, 2012)

When a man learns to love he must bear the risk of hatred


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

It is truly sad that people don't see how Obito fits into the story and why he was introduced. No one else fits. All the people hating on the theory are just butthurt because Tobi is most likely Obito and all their theories are wrong. Grow the fuck up, people and realize that this twist has been a long time coming. it completes the story perfectly, whether you look deep enough into the manga to see it or not. I will seriously be laughing my ass of when Tobi is revealed to be Obito and you guys can't comprehend _why_ he's Obito. I won't even bother explaining to you. I don't even feel sorry for you guys. In denial is not a good place to be. But you put yourselves there. Any further discussion on the matter of Tobi's identity is pointless. However, I will still partake in it as it's my favorite topic to debate about. But, I won't respond to anyone who's being irrational and dumb. I only will respond to people who ask propose their argument in a nice, sensible, logical, rational manner, and with god enough grammar to be taken seriously. There are a million reasons why Tobi is Obito. People need to grow up, realize how Kishimoto writes, and accept it.




Matrix XZ said:


> Now wait a minute.
> 
> The movies story is done by Kishi and the special manga one shot is made by Kishi. So its canon.
> 
> ...


It doesn't fit in the timeline. It's just for fun. Kishi never said it was canon or was in the timeline, it's just a fun thing that he's writing. Whatever those lines on Tobi's face are, they are most certainly not whisker marks. You can see that there are more than three, and that they go upwards. That black haired guy is Dark Naruto. He is the guy with that Rikudou-Insect mask. Not Tobi.



jacamo said:


> lol... looks like a demented Sasuke
> 
> as long as its not Obito, im ok with it


This is honestly getting ridiculous. First you're saying it can only be Kagami, and can't be Obito because it has too many plotholes. Then, when Obito seems to be a possibility, you say your okay with whoever he is, as long as he's not Obito. It's really sad. Are you going to quite the manga if he IS Obito? IF so, then good riddance. 





ronniemagia said:


> Kishi has been introducing new characters left and right, and many of them don't have a big role in the story anyways. So personally, I'd like it if Tobi ends up being a new character we've never seen before, like someone from the past, from the days of Madara and Hashirama.
> 
> Also, I'm not particularly pro the Tobito theory, if anything, because of the many plotholes it has, but still, if it turns out to be true, I'd just accept it as shitty as it is. I mean c'mon, we've been dealing with Kishi's bullcrap for many years now, it's not something new to this guy. He did it, he's doing it, and he'll probably continue on doing it until the end of the manga.


If you don't like Kishi's writing, don't read the manga. Simple as that.



jacamo said:


> Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan, not Madara... but i get your point, Kishi would have to change the facts, which is one way to do it i guess


You don't know for sure that Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan. It's still a mystery as of now, since we know that Tobi's not Madara. Kishi wouldn't have to change facts, he would have to explain them more clearly. Stop putting yourself ahead of Kishimoto. Not you, or anyone else, knows more about the series than him. Quit being arrogant and it will be easier to have a debate with people.


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

OGstarcraft said:


> i vote zabuza, cause epic.


Lol The shock that would induce. But it makes no sense from a storytelling standpoint. It's also impossible. Zabuza was Edo Tensei'd, so it can't be him. Plus he wouldn't be old enough, and why am i even seriously responding to this? I know you were joking, lol.


----------



## Mayaki (Jul 19, 2012)

"Do you have ANY idea how long I’ve waited for this moment?" - Tobi
He also was the Mizukage. Honestly guys..


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

*Obito's birthday...*

... is on the 10th of February, which makes him 7 months older than Kakashi, who was born on September the 15th.

During Kakashi Gaiden, both Obito and Kakashi were 13 years old. Kakashi is 30 years old now. The Kyuubi attack occurred during Naruto's birth, 16 years ago. That means Kakashi was 14 years old at the time. Obito, being 7 months older than Kakashi, would have been closer to the age of 15 than 14.

So, let me get this straight... you guys are saying that the body of an almost 15 year old Obito, would have been dwarfed by Minato during their fight, even though many people in the real world practically stops growing at that age? 

Really? Is this the "proof" that Tobi can't be Obito/someone who's using Obito's body? I'm not convinced. I haven't even brought up the possible (and probable) Zetsu modifications aspect of this, which could have affected the height of Obito's body.

There is nothing wrong with the timeline when it comes to Tobito theories, so please, stop bitching about it.


----------



## lathia (Jul 19, 2012)

I see some of you pretend to be 100% sure he's not Obito, yet believe it may be his body. You then degrade? Dafuq? Make up your mind.


----------



## ronniemagia (Jul 19, 2012)

I dont get the logic behind the Tobito theory, in fact he wasn't that important of a character anyways. He was introduced in a side story, and he sucked as a ninja (or at least he wasn't given enough panel time to show his skills = not important). The only reason Obito was created is to explain Kakashi's background, and as a mean to show how Kakashi got the sharingan, and how his friend affected him on the personal level and how he changed his view of the world. and that is all there is to the Obito character So all in all, Obito was a means to an end, a way to give a little depth to Kakashi's character ... and if he ends up being anything else, like being fucking Tobi, or the final villain, then it's gonna be the suckiest writing I've ever read.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Jul 19, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Is That what this all is??
> 
> A meaningless grudge?



Funny how Tobi can go on the world's hopelessness, heroes being  unneeded, Guy's forgetfulness, Kakashi's speaking etc., but he  absolutely fails to address this one thing. He had no problems killing  women and while doing it he never gave impression or speech that it is  some sort of "revenge" for loosing Rin. Nope, he never alluded to _woman_ being the cause of his behaviour: it was always "there is no hope for this world, there is no peace".



The Flying Chuck said:


> seems original for *this* series though



Inb4: Rin is Obito's younger brother.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 19, 2012)

It would be worse than Nagato going evil because his dog died.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 19, 2012)

Mayaki said:


> "Do you have ANY idea how long I?ve waited for this moment?" - Tobi



Less than three years!


----------



## Mayaki (Jul 19, 2012)

I bet it is Izuna, even after this chapter.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 19, 2012)

ronniemagia said:


> I dont get the logic behind the Tobito theory, in fact he wasn't that important of a character anyways. He was introduced in a side story, and he sucked as a ninja (or at least he wasn't given enough panel time to show his skills = not important). The only reason Obito was created is to explain Kakashi's background, and as a mean to show how Kakashi got the sharingan, and how his friend affected him on the personal level and how he changed his view of the world. and that is all there is to the Obito character So all in all, Obito was a means to an end, a way to give a little depth to Kakashi's character ... and if he ends up being anything else, like being fucking Tobi, or the final villain, then it's gonna be the suckiest writing I've ever read.



We have been saying tobi obito ever since we saw tobi first appear. Why? Because there were so many hints that people just fail to see for w/e reason. Then as the manga went on the hints just kept coming.

Now then, Id rather have obitio come back and have a sad past/crazy story then have some other uchiha whom we have seen 1 or 2 PANELS of in the entire manga turn out to be the final villain. Or some random nobody who we have no clue who he is or some retarded ass clone.

Seriously people, where's the suspense? Where's the drama in ANY of those choices?! FROM A WRITING PERSPECTIVE, obito and shisui were the only logical choices to actually make the fans care about who tobi is. 


LOL and people on this thread say its bad writing


----------



## ronniemagia (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> If you don't like Kishi's writing, don't read the manga. Simple as that.



If we don't like something, doesn't mean that we simply quit it ... besides, there's alot of good stuff in this manga, which is why I started reading it in the first place ... but just as it has good things, it has its shitty and poorly written stuff as well, and so I have every right to criticize the bad, and admire the good. For example, up until the end of Kakuzu and Hidan arc, the manga was awesome, the Pein arcs were great too ... the manga started sucking after this whole Tobi mystery guy, the revival of every GODDAMN dead shinobi, the ridiculous amount Kekkei Genkais that were introduced lately ... just to mention a few.


----------



## Gonder (Jul 19, 2012)

son_michael said:


> We have been saying tobi obito ever since we saw tobi first appear. Why? Because there were so many hints that people just fail to see for w/e reason. Then as the manga went on the hints just kept coming.
> 
> Now then, Id rather have obitio come back and have a sad past/crazy story then have some other uchiha whom we have seen 1 or 2 PANELS of in the entire manga turn out to be the final villain. Or some random nobody who we have no clue who he is or some retarded ass clone.
> 
> ...



no no your wrong is going to be kagami a guy whos only been in one chapter


----------



## boohead (Jul 19, 2012)

Time passes slower in his Tobi-Realm, where the 10 years he spent recuperating took merely 2-3 in the real world.


----------



## MormonJesus (Jul 19, 2012)

I've seen this theory before, but I'll humor you I guess. Why would Madara wait so long to find a body after VOTE. I'm sure there were plenty more suitable opportunities before Obito came along. I also don't think Obito would come after Minato like he did. He was loyal to them even as he was dying by giving his eye. I don't think he'd be that much of a buttlicker. 

Unless Obito has no control and is just a body for Madara, but that would just make Obito's inclusion irrelevant plotwise.


----------



## Doge (Jul 19, 2012)

Just face it, Tobi is (probably) Obito.


He knows about Kakashi, Gai can't remember faces so he's probably seen him, who else could it be?  At some point Gai must've seen Obito.  If you have a better guess, then name someone who would know Kakashi that well.


I will laugh when Obito is revealed and all the same people who said Tobi was Madara was a fact will cry again.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 19, 2012)

Velocity said:


> Normally I don't actually give a damn about this sort of thing, but a lot of people are up in arms about this particular theory - whether they're bullishly supporting it or determined to ignore it. Yet there is one major flaw in the entire Tobito theory and it lies within "time".
> 
> Tobi attacked Konohagakure less than a year after Obito died. Kakashi was 14 when Obito died, correct? Tobi attacked Konohagakure on the day Naruto was born, 16 years ago. Kakashi is 29-30, therefore making him around 14 the day the Nine Tails attacked. Ergo, less than a year passed between the Kakashi Gaiden arc and the time Tobi attacked Konohagakure.
> 
> ...



Also, Minato somehow didn't recognize Obito's voice.


----------



## 8 (Jul 19, 2012)

i think most tobito supporters are fully aware of all this. its just that they don't trust the consistency of this story.


----------



## ninboy (Jul 19, 2012)

Did really Tobi gave Nagato the eyes? He only said "They where mine to begin with" like those were a right he had, like he was suppose to be the one that received them and not Nagato


----------



## Reddan (Jul 19, 2012)

Velocity said:


> Normally I don't actually give a damn about this sort of thing, but a lot of people are up in arms about this particular theory - whether they're bullishly supporting it or determined to ignore it. Yet there is one major flaw in the entire Tobito theory and it lies within "time".
> 
> Tobi attacked Konohagakure less than a year after Obito died. Kakashi was 14 when Obito died, correct? Tobi attacked Konohagakure on the day Naruto was born, 16 years ago. Kakashi is 29-30, therefore making him around 14 the day the Nine Tails attacked. Ergo, less than a year passed between the Kakashi Gaiden arc and the time Tobi attacked Konohagakure.
> 
> ...


As you mentioned already there are two easy explanations.

1. Kushina was the 9 tails Junchuriki, who says he did not know Obito. 
2. Obito's body was destroyed. Tobi's body is mostly made up from Zetsu's parts. A year or so passed and Obito's body was reconstructed. It is like asking why Darth Vader is so much taller than Anakin Skywalker.

There is plenty of time. Crossing the powers of Hashirama with an Uchiha would make them much more powerful.  Rin dying is probably the reason he gained the MS. 

Apart from that, I believe a part of Madara's soul was actually in control of the body for a significant part of the time. A bit like what Orochimaru did with his bodies. A small  part of their personalities remained, but in Obito's case a large part of his personality remained.

At some point I bet he gained control and decided to follow through with the plan.


----------



## Kestrel (Jul 19, 2012)

fantzipants said:


> I stopped reading after a few sentences. Unless my memory fails me Minato did tell kakashi that he later went and retrieved obitos body as confirmation.



Even if Minato didn't get the body. He would of told them where to find it. And Hiruzen would of sent out some Jounin or ANBUs to pick up the body.

I'm personally getting a bit sick of these Tobi is Obito threads everywhere I go.



The only other thing I can think of that would allow Obito a slimmer of a chance to be Tobi is if he wasn't in control of his own body. Similar to the edo tensei. But, what would be the point of that? To torcher Kakashi? That would be some messed up plot twist.



Here's a list to further disprove your theories.

Since Obito is around the same age as Kakashi, he would of ben seen as a teen at the time Naruto was born. Tobi was seen as an Adult.

 Tobi knows a lot about Madara and the Uchihas's past. Obito doesn't seam to be the one to look up his clan's history all for the sake of revenge.

Obito is a kind caring person. Where as Tobi is an evil, manipulative person that wants things his way.

How would Obito manage to get the rinnegan when he just managed to activate his Sharingan?

The only possible reason I could see Tobi being Obito is if he wasn't in control of his own body or, if it was something similar to edo tensei. But, what would be the point of that? To torture Kakashi? That would be some messed up plot twist.


----------



## Jesus (Jul 19, 2012)

It is the main problem with the theory, however one could argue that time-line problems have not been Kishi's concern in the past...

Plus with Tobi having space-time powers, he could probably find a way to make it actually work. For example Tobi's dimension could act as a hyperbolic time chamber.


----------



## DremolitoX (Jul 19, 2012)

People who don't want to believe in something will always find something to bitch about.

I mean, I reached the height of 6'1 when I was like 15 and 6-7 years later I haven't grown an inch.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Jul 19, 2012)

this would be so awesome


----------



## Jikayaki (Jul 19, 2012)

Obito is too young and far too dead to be Tobi. Tobi being Obito never made and sense and nothing has changed to make it more likely than it was before. Tobi this chapter was merely referencing the many deaths of those close to Kakashi. Tobi still very much is an unknown.


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It can't be a new character, otherwise the mask would be pointless. And, Kishi can be pretty damn obvious, so it's more likely that Tobi is actually Obito. I mean, how obvious was it that Minato was Naruto's father, or that Pain was Nagato? People need to realize how Tobi being Obito would perfectly tie up all the loose ends in the story.


 
 The purpose of the mask is to hide its identity from other characters and readers. And to mislead it. If its a new character, its a character we as readers have never seen or may not normally recognize, but the characters can, I.E. Minato's Brother. 

 The hints towards Tobi's Identity have been changing over the course of the times, specially when danzo appeared, when Kishi makes the readers think of one way, its because the result is clearly the opposite. Right now dont get too much surprised if Kishi makes it look like if its Obito to make the readers dig into a different direction. 

 Now I want you to explain me how could Obito tie all the loose ends in the story.


----------



## MormonJesus (Jul 19, 2012)

Ya, if Obito isn't controlling himself there would no point having him be Tobi as far as storytelling goes. That would just be some lame, lazy attempt at a twist just for the sake of surprising people.


----------



## ShenLong Kazama (Jul 19, 2012)

I don't think Tobi is Obito, i never saw Gai meeting Obito. Shisui is more likely.


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 19, 2012)

Sareth said:


> There is nothing wrong with the timeline when it comes to Tobito theories, so please, stop bitching about it.



Tobi was mind raping Yagura while Obito was still a child. How does this jive with the Tobito theory?


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 19, 2012)

ShenLong Kazama said:


> I don't think Tobi is Obito, i never saw Gai meeting Obito. Shisui is more likely.



U can't be serious.........post with a brain. He has known kakshi since they were children. THUS he knew his team members. logical he knew obito.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No parts of his brain were crushed. If you look, the boulder clearly didn't go through his head.



So your telling me that the bolder was just laying on him? why was there blood coming out of his mouth? surely a rock place on someone wouldn't do that...

the right side of his body was crushed.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 19, 2012)

How do you know Kakashi isn't 5 months older than Obito?


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

eepdoodle said:


> Tobi was mind raping Yagura while Obito was still a child. How does this jive with the Tobito theory?


Tobi had long hair back then. He might have used another body at the time (if Orochimaru can switch bodies, then why not Tobi?). Either that, or that Tobi wasn't Tobi at all, but Madara.


----------



## Vanadius (Jul 19, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> Obito would have all of Madara's memories, along with a brain-injury (Tobi has a bandage around his forehead) so he'd have a spilt personality going on Madara (The Serious one) and Obito (The Childish one).



Your arguments make no sense.  How would Obito have Madara's memories?  Prove your assertions, please.




> Because if Obito was Tobi, he'd have to have changed rather drastically to attack Minato, kidnap a baby and try to kill it, kidnap a woman after giving birth, etc.



Obito had the Will of Fire, and awakened it/passed it on to Kakashi.  Tobi doesn't have the Will of Fire, and in fact, spits on the very notion of it.  You have no evidence to back up the idea that Obito would change that drastically, as you've provided no compelling reason for that change.  

Kishimoto will drop clues, you're looking in the wrong place.



> No. Kakashi told Sasuke in Part 1 everyone he cared about died. Rin is absent in the Manga. It's belived she died somewhere along the plot. When and How will be revealed with Tobi (Obito)'s backstory. If he is Obito, anyway.



I meant that Rin survived the war, and that Obito would have no reason to hold a grudge against Minato.  




> We see the rock resting on his right side, his head not crushed. Then the second cave-in happens, and we don't see anything after. He could have died, he could have lived. The Tobi = Obito (In Some Way) theory operates on the belief he lived.



If a *huge boulder* is resting on the right side of your face, and you know you're going to die any second, I think we can surmise that the right side of your face was crushed.  

In fact, Obito admits it.



There was no way Obito would've survived the following cave in, and I will consider it outright trolling if Kishi did that.  Minato even apologized for Obito's death.




> He wouldn't. Right Place, Right Time kind of thing. It would be more like Madara was dying and needed to be revived, so he left his memories/plans with Zetsu. Zetsu would be the one to save Obito, transfer the memories, keep his broken body alive, etc. (My personal theory is that Tobi is Izuna inside Obito's body with Madara's memories)



All speculation, no hard evidence.  

How would Madara even know who Obito is?  Would Madara know who Sasuke and Itachi are?



> Madara hates Hashirama. Memory overlap.
> 
> Keep in mind, I don't necessarily believe in this. I like to look at it from both sides. There's strong evidence it's Obito, and there's strong evidence it isn't.



What would be Obito's personal reasons for hating Hashirama?  If you don't have an answer, just admit it, but don't try to BS us.

I am a Tobi fan.  If there's any character I don't want him to be, it's Obito.  I'm personally pulling for Izuna, since that would make the most sense.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

Gunners said:


> How do you know Kakashi isn't 5 months older than Obito?


I don't, but Obito was taller than Kakashi during Kakashi Gaiden, so I suppose he was older.

Also, we have no reason to think that Kakashi and Obito weren't born the same year.


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 19, 2012)

Sareth said:


> Tobi had long hair back then. He might have used another body at the time (if Orochimaru can switch bodies, then why not Tobi?). Either that, or that Tobi wasn't Tobi at all, but Madara.



Kisame validated his identity (same face regardless of his styling). The current Tobi is the same guy who controlled the Mizukage.

There?s a number of ways in this manga for one character to look like another, but there?s no way to explain that scene to the audience now that Kisame is dead. That doesn?t mean Kishi would necessarily care about what poor writing that would be though.


----------



## kanpyo7 (Jul 19, 2012)

^no, I don't remember Minato ever saying he retrieved the body.

Anyways if Tobito is real then TC you're probably close to the truth, although instead of a piece of Madara's soul he probably just has some of his chakra. We already know Tobi has a shit-ton of Sharingan in a vault, it's not much of a leap to think Madara began that collection and while he and/or Zetsu were searching they happened across Obito. The 'leap' of course would be they mindfucked him with genjutsu to explain the history of the world and the absolute hopelessness that pervades it, then made him his 'Kabuto' more or less.

Would also give a nice sense of subtle foreshadowing to Omoi's words at the start of the war IMO.


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 19, 2012)

> Since Obito is around the same age as Kakashi, he would of ben seen as a teen at the time Naruto was born. Tobi was seen as an Adult.



And yet people can't read as it seems. I said in the op, that at that moment it was still Madara who was acting as Tobi.



> Tobi knows a lot about Madara and the Uchihas's past. Obito doesn't seam to be the one to look up his clan's history all for the sake of revenge.



Again, in the OP I explained that Obito could have become his apprentice and so Madara taught him these things.



> Obito is a kind caring person. Where as Tobi is an evil, manipulative person that wants things his way.



People can change, especially when they have a messed up past like Obito.




> How would Obito manage to get the rinnegan when he just managed to activate his Sharingan?



With the help of Madara and a part of his soul, chakra, or whatever he left in Obito before dying.


Edit: 



> instead of a piece of Madara's soul he probably just has some of his chakra.



Possible, indeed.


----------



## MormonJesus (Jul 19, 2012)

Itachi, people can read your theory just fine. It's just dumb so people are trying to find similar explanations to help prove or disprove what doesn't fully make sense to them. You don't need to rage out because people don't say exactly what you want. That's the beauty of civilized debate. 

Not reading it and not repeating it aren't quite the same. 

Edit: here's a great suggestion. Try refuting claims and backing up your own with evidence instead of saying "durr learn to read n00b that's not da theerie!"


----------



## Chuck (Jul 19, 2012)

can we all just wait for confirmation first?


----------



## ShenLong Kazama (Jul 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> U can't be serious.........post with a brain. He has known kakshi since they were children. THUS he knew his team members. logical he knew obito.



You should use your brain smartass, it has never been shown that Gai met Obito. It's more likely that Tobi is Shisui, as everyone knew him.


----------



## Leuconoe (Jul 19, 2012)

If Tobi is Obito, maybe!

Though I find that a wee lame.


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 19, 2012)

> It's just dumb



The only dumb things are some of the responses I read so far, not all of em, but certainly some, as they don't even understand the OP at all. 



> Try refuting claims and backing up your own with evidence instead of saying "durr learn to read n00b that's not da theerie!"



read my previous post, where I did that ...


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

eepdoodle said:


> Kisame validated his identity (same face regardless of his styling). The current Tobi is the same guy who controlled the Mizukage.
> 
> There’s a number of ways in this manga for one character to look like another, but there’s no way to explain that scene to the audience now that Kisame is dead. That doesn’t mean Kishi would necessarily care about what poor writing that would be though.


You do have a point. I'll have to think about that. The only answer I can come up with right now is "Henge" or "Genjutsu",  but you're right, that _would_ be poor writing.

Another possibility is that what Kisame recognized wasn't Tobi's face, but something in it. Who knows what abnormalities hide under that mask? Maybe he's got an eye on his forehead?


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 19, 2012)

eepdoodle said:


> Kisame validated his identity (same face regardless of his styling). The current Tobi is the same guy who controlled the Mizukage.
> 
> There?s a number of ways in this manga for one character to look like another, but there?s no way to explain that scene to the audience now that Kisame is dead. That doesn?t mean Kishi would necessarily care about what poor writing that would be though.



Curious to see how you deduced Obito's age during Yagura's time as Mizukage.


----------



## MormonJesus (Jul 19, 2012)

Your evidence was more baseless speculation regarding your theory. Not established facts.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

oh so tobi feels like 14 from the flashbacks right? and he feels like 30 years old in the present?

cool. i wonder how old he was when he worked with madara.... lol


----------



## Edo Madara (Jul 19, 2012)

I bet its hashirama/madara clone, a new character with no name


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

Mayaki said:


> I bet it is Izuna, even after this chapter.


I don't really see how Izuna could personally know Kakashi though.



fukkengan said:


> The purpose of the mask is to hide its identity from other characters and readers. And to mislead it. If its a new character, its a character we as readers have never seen or may not normally recognize, but the characters can, I.E. Minato's Brother.
> 
> The hints towards Tobi's Identity have been changing over the course of the times, specially when danzo appeared, when Kishi makes the readers think of one way, its because the result is clearly the opposite. Right now dont get too much surprised if Kishi makes it look like if its Obito to make the readers dig into a different direction.
> 
> Now I want you to explain me how could Obito tie all the loose ends in the story.


lol, no one else has even been really hinted at but Obito, actually. The Kagami theory is based on like, 3 coincidences. Shisui has pretty much never been hinted at. But maybe like, twice, lol. And very weak hints at that.

Can't be a new character because not only must Tobi's identity have an impact on the characters, but also on the readers.

Obito ties up the most loose ends and also fits with all of Kishi's themes. I can't be bothered to explain them all yet again but here are a few.

All the main villains in the series have been from a different generation spawning from the beginning of Ninja villages.

Madara(1st generation)
Danzo(2nd Generation)
Orochimaru(3rd Generation)
Nagato(4th Generation)
_____(5th Generation)
Sasuke(6th Generation)

Notice how there is a major villain from every generation except the 5th. Tobi is the main villain of the series, so it can be expected that he fits into this pattern. The only place to fit into is the 5th Generation. Who is in that generation that fits? Obito. There's no one else from that generation that it could be. And it wouldn't really thematically fit for Tobi to be from a generation before 5, as we already have villains from the other generations. And we know how crazy Kishi is with themes.

There is also another interesting parallel to be made. The 1st, 3d, 4th, 5th, and 6th Generations all have the villain being from a team that parallels Team 7 or is Team 7. That person is also usually responsible for the death of his master(excluding Madara). Let's take a look:

Madara: From a "team" that paralleled Team 7(Madara/Sasuke, Hashirama/Naruto, Mito/Sakura). Went evil.

Orochimaru: From a team that paralleled Team 7(Orochimaru/Sasuke, Jiraiya/Naruto, Tsunade/Sakura). Went evil and killed his master, Hiruzen.

Nagato: From a team that paralleled Team 7(Nagato/Sasuke, Yahiko/Naruto, Konan/Sakura). Went evil and killed his master, Jiraiya.



Sasuke: Is on the actual Team 7. Went evil and after three years of training, "killed" his new master, Orochimaru.

So, theoretically:  Obito: Was from the 5th generation and was on a team paralleling Team 7(Obito/Naruto, Kakashi/Sasuke, Rin/Sakura). He went evil for currently unknown reasons and killed Minato.

Also, Obito was an EXACT parallel to Naruto. The hair, the clothes(orange with blue highlights reversed to blue with orange highlights), the GOGGLES. Everything. Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto and was an Uchiha.

Now, by this logic, an evil Obito would be an exact opposite of Naruto and be a great final villain.

Even Itachi made a vague reference to this. He said that if Naruto forgets his friends, and his ego gets to him, he'll become just like Tobi. So, if obito forgot his friends(as he was a comrade-centric character) his ego would get too big and he would become Tobi.

Now, here's another thing. Remember during the first battle with Orochimaru, when Sasuke kept on saying that everyone should get out of there, and then Naruto punched him in the face? Obito did the same thing to Kakashi when he refused to go rescue Rin.





Also, the Kakashi and Obito/Naruto and Sasuke parallel is really interesting.

Kakashi is like a Sasuke that had a horrible past but turned nice.(I can't say he turned good because he was already good, just a douchebag, lol.)

Obito is like Naruto who turned evil due to currently unexplained horrible events and a change of ideology.

So, I don't think that this is at all a coincidence. There is also some Japanese mythology that strongly supports Tobi being Obito. As we know how Kishi bases a great deal of the manga on Japanese mythology. But I'm too lazy to post it right now.

Tobi being Obito also makes some of the odd claims he made make more sense. He wants to become complete because his body is broken and fractured from the boulders and had to be repaired with Zetsu goo.


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 19, 2012)

MormonJesus said:


> Your evidence was more baseless speculation regarding your theory. Not established facts.



Theories are built from speculations. .

Try to counter my assumptions with facts, saying it couldn't have been happened like this.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> ins in this manga and at Japanese mythology, no one else makes sense.
> 
> You're not analyzing anything. You're just saying something can't be but providing no actual evidence as to _why_ it can't be.



prove to me he was old enough too meet and work with madara uchiha. that is when nagato was an...infant. go ahed

you wana use the excuse, its kishimoto's writing and nothing is impossible? then i can easily just make him shisui, itachi's half, madara's clone, orochimaru, shodai's evil twin soul, etc? but what the fuck would you call that?


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> oh so tobi feels like 14 from the flashbacks right? and he feels like 30 years old in the present?
> 
> cool. i wonder how old he was when he worked with madara.... lol


Not his mind, but his body could very well have been 14-15 years old. The "wrinkles" you see in Tobi's face now are more likely to be scars than wrinkles.

You see, I don't believe that Tobi is Obito. I think he is someone much older, who has taken control over Obito's mind and body. Your pathetic "arguments" are shit against this theory, so GTFO.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

Sareth said:


> Not his mind, but his body could very well have been 14-15 years old. The "wrinkles" you see in Tobi's face now are more likely to be scars than wrinkles.
> 
> You see, I don't believe that Tobi is Obito. I think he is someone much older, who has taken control over Obito's body. Your pathetic "arguments" are shit against this theory, so GTFO.



his body or mind dont look 15. stop trying.

shit thread like countless other obito ones


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I don't really see how Izuna could personally know Kakashi though.
> 
> lol, no one else has even been really hinted at but Obito, actually. The Kagami theory is based on like, 3 coincidences. Shisui has pretty much never been hinted at. But maybe like, twice, lol. And very weak hints at that.
> 
> ...



 you dont get my point, any character reveal can be shocking as long as its related to the plot somehow or to the rest of the known characters.

 Examples:

 Gai's Boyfriend.

 Naruto's Son. 

 Madara's Father.

 None of those have been shown but the identy of all are important. I think its unlike to be someone little people known about but with a lot of background, Kagami is not my candidate. 

 The Kishi reveals are never hinted in its context, I.E. Pain's identity, which had plot relevance by its relationship with Jiraiya and with the War. And at the time it was revealed who it was, it was totally new for all of us, there was no way we could really figure it out and yet it was a shocking reveal.

 The same case is a possibility with Tobi.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi: Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?
> 
> Kushina: hmm, a year?
> 
> Tobi:







Sareth said:


> I'm starting to think that you're a troll. No one can be this stupid.
> 
> Negged, biatch.


keep cryin like you've been for 7 yrs now   lol



spankdatbitch said:


> Are these the same 10 yr olds that predicted Itachi to be good,the akatsuki leader (and Karin) to be related to Naruto etc?If so prepare yourself for yet another embarrassing smack down.You guys just never learn I swear



i predicted 2/3 myself. but this shit makes no sense, at all


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> Curious to see how you deduced Obito's age during Yagura's time as Mizukage.



I?m glad you asked.



eepdoodle said:


> 1. Obito is Kakashi?s age. Kakashi is Zabuza?s age. Therefore, Obito is the same age as Zabuza.
> 2. Zabuza was a child during the Blood Mist era. Therefore, Obito was a child during the Blood Mist era.
> 3. A masked man influencing the fourth Mizukage is responsible for the Blood Mist era. Therefore, Obito is not this masked man.
> 4. Kisame identified this masked man as the same man who was known as Tobi. Therefore, Obito is not Tobi.
> ...


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

fukkengan said:


> you dont get my point, any character reveal can be shocking as long as its related to the plot somehow or to the rest of the known characters.
> 
> Examples:
> 
> ...


Pain is different. We weren't supposed to recognize who he was. He was just the Akatsuki leader. He was hidden so long because he was mysterious, not because he had an identity to hide. Tobi, however, is different. He is obviously someone we will recognize. it's been hinted at way too many times, and it's common sense, really. 

And you mean to tell all that stuff I wrote in my previous comment didn't convince you at all that he could be Obito?         
*Spoiler*: __


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

eepdoodle said:


> I?m glad you asked.



ownedddd.


----------



## MormonJesus (Jul 19, 2012)

Exactly. If it's all just speculation don't get so salty when people don't see it your way. Aint no proof in either direction, girlfriend.


----------



## principito (Jul 19, 2012)

And since a pre-teenager Itachi was in the war and then murdering his parents around 15 ... i dont see why this is so unbelievable


----------



## insane111 (Jul 19, 2012)

Sareth said:


> Tobi had long hair back then. He might have used another body at the time (if Orochimaru can switch bodies, then why not Tobi?). Either that, or that Tobi wasn't Tobi at all, but Madara.



Huh, nobody is arguing against the theory that someone else might be using Obito's body, that's a completely plausible theory. It's the people who think it actually is Obito himself that don't make sense.


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Pain is different. We weren't supposed to recognize who he was. He was just the Akatsuki leader. He was hidden so long because he was mysterious, not because he had an identity to hide. Tobi, however, is different. He is obviously someone we will recognize. it's been hinted at way too many times, and it's common sense, really.
> 
> And you mean to tell all that stuff I wrote in my previous comment didn't convince you at all that he could be Obito?
> *Spoiler*: __



 No that's not what I meant. 

 I have read a lot of theories about Obito, and I think its plausible as well. Kishimoto at this point have several ways to resolve Tobi's Identity. But all of the important well known characters have plot holes he would need to explain. I am looking foward that explanation, I used to think that Kishimoto wanted Tobi to be Obito in the beggining, but it was so damn obvious that he modified the plot to adapt this character to something different. But by doing so he also came up with several unconsistencies with what he planned first, that is Tobi being Obito. 

 In your example you put Naruto's Father as a way to prove your theory, I gave you a similar example with Akatsuki leader. That's all. 

 I just feel sorry for you if Tobi result to be someone besides Obito, you better dont cry if it results to be someone else.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

insane111 said:


> Huh, nobody is arguing against the theory that *someone else* might be using Obito's body, that's a completely plausible theory. It's the people who think it actually is Obito himself that don't make sense.


See that's where you're wrong. Many people argue against someone else using Obito's body. T-Bag and eepdoodle in this thread, for example.


----------



## principito (Jul 19, 2012)

Honestly People are bitching about precise dates and overlaped events in this manga refuting tobi/Obito theory like EVERYTHING else in this manga was perfectly squared.... SPECIALLY timeline......

bitches please


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> So your telling me that the bolder was just laying on him? why was there blood coming out of his mouth? surely a rock place on someone wouldn't do that...
> 
> the right side of his body was crushed.


I never said the boulder didn't fucking DAMAGE him. I just said it didn't CRUSH him. When Kishi himself literally says Tobi is Obito and you're still in denial, you know somethings off.



ShenLong Kazama said:


> You should use your brain smartass, it has never been shown that Gai met Obito. It's more likely that Tobi is Shisui, as everyone knew him.


It's common logic that Obito would have met Guy. I never saw Sasuke being born. Does that mean he was never born? No.



T-Bag said:


> prove to me he was old enough too meet and work with madara uchiha. that is when nagato was an...infant. go ahed
> 
> you wana use the excuse, its kishimoto's writing and nothing is impossible? then i can easily just make him shisui, itachi's half, madara's clone, orochimaru, shodai's evil twin soul, etc? but what the fuck would you call that?


Madara could have easily trained him for 2-3 years. Beign the motherfucking badass he is he might have sensed Obto's potential and saved and trained him.

I said it was likely to be obito because Kishimoto's writing style POINTS to Obito. You clearly misunderstood what I said.

Also, judging by your avatar, you must be a big Tobi fan too. So, tell me, how would you feel about him if he turned out to be "weak-ass Obito"?  Tobi's my favorite character and I'd be fine if he was Obito. In fact, That's the Tobi identity that would satisfy me the most.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> never saw Sasuke being born. Does that mean he was never born? No.
> 
> Madara could have easily trained him for 2-3 years. Beign the motherfucking badass he is he might have sensed Obto's potential adn saved and trained him.



No, because he was not alive when nagato was an kid. lol


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

fukkengan said:


> No that's not what I meant.
> 
> I have read a lot of theories about Obito, and I think its plausible as well. Kishimoto at this point have several ways to resolve Tobi's Identity. But all of the important well known characters have plot holes he would need to explain. I am looking foward that explanation, I used to think that Kishimoto wanted Tobi to be Obito in the beggining, but it was so damn obvious that he modified the plot to adapt this character to something different. But by doing so he also came up with several unconsistencies with what he planned first, that is Tobi being Obito.
> 
> ...


U mad?(lol.) I wouldn't cry if Tobi's not Obito. I'd be fine as long as he's someone we've seen before. But, Obito just makes the most sense. And, if there's one thing I know, it's that Tobi's identity has been set from the start, and has never changed. Knowing the way Kishi writes and plans things out, he wouldn't have changed it.

When will this thread be finished?!?!

Tobi's identity thread part 2 FTW!!!!


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> ObitoUchiha111 said:
> 
> 
> > I never said the boulder didn't fucking DAMAGE him. I just said it didn't CRUSH him. *When Kishi himself literally says Tobi is Obito and you're still in denial, you know somethings off*.
> ...


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> No, because he was not alive when nagato was an kid. lol


Lol, Madara definitely could have lived to see obito. I don't see what problems there are with that.


----------



## Itαchi (Jul 19, 2012)

MormonJesus said:


> Exactly. If it's all just speculation don't get so salty when people don't see it your way. Aint no proof in either direction, girlfriend.



Okay..

Dupe... Urrgh I meant,

"MormonJesus"


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

prodigy schoolin on mothafuckas



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Lol, Madara definitely could have lived to see obito. I don't see what problems there are with that.



madara/tobi are older than nagato. nagato is older than obito.

madara died when nagato was kid, how old does that make obito? u rly think madara lived long enough to meet obito and actually collaborate with him? 

u obito fans never cease to amaze me i swear


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Is that your defense?
> 
> Seriously? Kishi said Tobi is Obito in a FAN SERVICE movie. He creates, writes, and draws the manga. But there's a reason why he's doing all of this around the time of the movie. To give people ideas, get peoples hopes up, ect...
> 
> ...


Personalities change, sure. But not identities.

Besides, the translation states that Tobi _outside_ of the Genjustu is Obito. It's likely that Kishimoto didn't intend for people to see that manuscript anyway. He most likely put Obito in parenthesis afterwards because he has to keep track of the two "Madara"s. This way it's easy to differentiate Tobi and Madara. The real canonical Tobi is obito.


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 19, 2012)

I so don't get why people try to argue based on the movie. As if any author would just reveal the greatest mystery of his story in such a fashion. What sort of idiot would Kishi have to be to give a spoiler which would ruin half the plot in such a fashion?


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> I so don't get why people try to argue based on the movie. As if any author would just reveal the greatest mystery of his story in such a fashion. What sort of idiot would Kishi have to be to give a spoiler which would ruin half the plot in such a fashion?



obito fans disagree with your notion


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

Obito ties up the most loose ends and also fits with all of Kishi's themes. I can't be bothered to explain them all yet again but here are a few.

All the main villains in the series have been from a different generation spawning from the beginning of Ninja villages.

Madara(1st generation)
Danzo(2nd Generation)
Orochimaru(3rd Generation)
Nagato(4th Generation)
_____(5th Generation)
Sasuke(6th Generation)

Notice how there is a major villain from every generation except the 5th. Tobi is the main villain of the series, so it can be expected that he fits into this pattern. The only place to fit into is the 5th Generation. Who is in that generation that fits? Obito. There's no one else from that generation that it could be. And it wouldn't really thematically fit for Tobi to be from a generation before 5, as we already have villains from the other generations. And we know how crazy Kishi is with themes.

There is also another interesting parallel to be made. The 1st, 3d, 4th, 5th, and 6th Generations all have the villain being from a team that parallels Team 7 or is Team 7. That person is also usually responsible for the death of his master(excluding Madara). Let's take a look:

Madara: From a "team" that paralleled Team 7(Madara/Sasuke, Hashirama/Naruto, Mito/Sakura). Went evil.

Orochimaru: From a team that paralleled Team 7(Orochimaru/Sasuke, Jiraiya/Naruto, Tsunade/Sakura). Went evil and killed his master, Hiruzen.

Nagato: From a team that paralleled Team 7(Nagato/Sasuke, Yahiko/Naruto, Konan/Sakura). Went evil and killed his master, Jiraiya.



Sasuke: Is on the actual Team 7. Went evil and after three years of training, "killed" his new master, Orochimaru.

So, theoretically:  Obito: Was from the 5th generation and was on a team paralleling Team 7(Obito/Naruto, Kakashi/Sasuke, Rin/Sakura). He went evil for currently unknown reasons and killed Minato.

Also, Obito was an EXACT parallel to Naruto. The hair, the clothes(orange with blue highlights reversed to blue with orange highlights), the GOGGLES. Everything. Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto and was an Uchiha.

Now, by this logic, an evil Obito would be an exact opposite of Naruto and be a great final villain.

Even Itachi made a vague reference to this. He said that if Naruto forgets his friends, and his ego gets to him, he'll become just like Tobi. So, if obito forgot his friends(as he was a comrade-centric character) his ego would get too big and he would become Tobi.

Now, here's another thing. Remember during the first battle with Orochimaru, when Sasuke kept on saying that everyone should get out of there, and then Naruto punched him in the face? Obito did the same thing to Kakashi when he refused to go rescue Rin.





Also, the Kakashi and Obito/Naruto and Sasuke parallel is really interesting.

Kakashi is like a Sasuke that had a horrible past but turned nice.(I can't say he turned good because he was already good, just a douchebag, lol.)

Obito is like Naruto who turned evil due to currently unexplained horrible events and a change of ideology.

So, I don't think that this is at all a coincidence. There is also some Japanese mythology that strongly supports Tobi being Obito. As we know how Kishi bases a great deal of the manga on Japanese mythology. But I'm too lazy to post it right now.

Tobi being Obito also makes some of the odd claims he made make more sense. He wants to become complete because his body is broken and fractured from the boulders and had to be repaired with Zetsu goo.


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> I so don't get why people try to argue based on the movie. As if any author would just reveal the greatest mystery of his story in such a fashion. What sort of idiot would Kishi have to be to give a spoiler which would ruin half the plot in such a fashion?


I highly doubt that it will get revealed in the movie.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 19, 2012)

Jikayaki said:


> Obito is too young and far too dead to be Tobi. Tobi being Obito never made and sense and nothing has changed to make it more likely than it was before. Tobi this chapter was merely referencing the many deaths of those close to Kakashi. Tobi still very much is an unknown.



and how exactly does he know anything about kakashi? You can see kakashi and gai's reactions, they were surprised. That entire page was meant to illustrate that tobi knows them.


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> obito fans disagree with your notion



I know, I have seen quite a few of them argue that we shouldn't expect something that makes sense essentially because Kishi is supposed to be an idiot.
Which is a retarded argument. 
Kishi may not be a genius, but he is a professional mangaka with over a decade of experience. He couldn't have kept Naruto running for so long if he hadn't learned proper storytelling and not revealing mysteries in offhand comments and notes is really the first thing any author learns.


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag, you still haven't answered my question. Judging by your avatar, you're a big Tobi fan as well. So, how would you react if Tobi actually turned out to be "weak-ass Obito"? That would mean that you've been a big fan of and had as your avatar "weak-ass Obito" this whole time.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> I know, I have seen quite a few of them argue that we shouldn't expect something that makes sense essentially because Kishi is supposed to be an idiot.
> Which is a retarded argument.
> Kishi may not be a genius, but he is a professional mangaka with over a decade of experience. He couldn't have kept Naruto running for so long if he hadn't learned proper storytelling and not revealing mysteries in offhand comments and notes is really the first thing any author learns.



yeah i know and i agree with you



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> T-Bag, you still haven't answered my question. Judging by your avatar, you're a big Tobi fan as well. So, how would you react if Tobi actually turned out to be "weak-ass Obito"? That would mean that you've been a big fan of and had as your avatar "weak-ass Obito" this whole time.



quit his character, or quit the manga


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Personalities change, sure. But not identities.
> 
> Besides, the translation states that Tobi _outside_ of the Genjustu is Obito. It's likely that Kishimoto didn't intend for people to see that manuscript anyway. He most likely put Obito in parenthesis afterwards because he has to keep track of the two "Madara"s. This way it's easy to differentiate Tobi and Madara. The real canonical Tobi is obito.



If your talking about the movie, sure. Tobi is Obito.  But in the actual manga, not in some alter narutoverse those statements have no relevance. 

Tobi doesn't even have the same mask as he does in the war and he's obtained the Juubi in the manga. Using the movie to combine the plot would fuck so much shit up, kishi wouldn't take that chance. Maybe in an interview unrelated to the movie. Otherwise, no.


----------



## Shrike (Jul 19, 2012)

Link removed

Hey guys, what do you think about Madara's line about the secret to his body that is described in the Uchiha stone?


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *When will this thread be finished?!?!
> 
> Tobi's identity thread part 2 FTW!!!!*



Whoever makes that thread should add more variety to the poll. All it says is Madara clone, just Tobi, bla bla bla


----------



## Summers (Jul 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> ^perfect explanation
> 
> but also a cheap cop-out by Kishi



It would not be a cop out, it would be extremely useless and difficult for kishi.

To go to the lengths of time-travel just so Tobi can be Obito would open up more plotholes than was listed in this thread already, and for what? so some dead character can give Kakashi some emotional reactions. Who other than Kakashi would give a shit about Obito.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 19, 2012)

*If Tobi is Obito then...*

how did Obito gave Nagato Rinnegan? He wasn't even born when Nagato activated his Rinnegan.


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> yeah i know and i agree with you
> 
> 
> 
> quit his character, or quit the manga


Lol, that's just sad that you'd stop liking your favorite character and quit the manga just because he's not who you want him to be. You should at least stick around for his backstory. It's shame that the only good Tobi identity is going to make you quit the manga. His identity shouldn't change what you liked about the characer in the first place, though I suppose if you hated obito or something then it's conflicting sides, lol. Anyway, good riddance.



Prodigy94 said:


> If your talking about the movie, sure. Tobi is Obito.  But in the actual manga, not in some alter narutoverse those statements have no relevance.
> 
> Tobi doesn't even have the same mask as he does in the war and he's obtained the Juubi in the manga. Using the movie to combine the plot would fuck so much shit up, kishi wouldn't take that chance. Maybe in an interview unrelated to the movie. Otherwise, no.


The movie's not even canon. And, I hope you realize that if Tobi's mask doesn't come off or he isn't revealed to be obito in the movie then that 100% confirms that the real canon Tobi is Obito.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 19, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> Link removed
> 
> Hey guys, what do you think about Madara's line about the secret to his body that is described in the Uchiha stone?



Yeah, I suspect that's something about Rikudou or his sons lineage, which reveals the way to gain the Rinnegan. Maybe Senju or something like that.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

future obito. lol...


----------



## insane111 (Jul 19, 2012)

josh101 said:


> Yes, a 14-16 year old Obito has waited to release the Kyuubi for so long.





Easley said:


> Tobi: Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?
> 
> Kushina: hmm, a year?
> 
> Tobi:




Haha I've posted that one before, never seen anyone give a valid explanation for it though.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 19, 2012)

All the sign in the manga points to Tobi is really Obito is disguise but the timeline doesn't add up. And since when Obito ever possessed Rinnegan? he died at 14 and Nagato already was a Rinnegan user at the time of his death.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> The movie's not even canon. And, I hope you realize that if Tobi's mask doesn't come off or he isn't revealed to be obito in the movie then that 100% confirms that the real canon Tobi is Obito.





when did I ever say the movie was canon?

If Tobi isn't Obito in the movie it doesn't mean he's gonna be Obito in the manga... that logic is flawed. That's like saying if you can't go right, you must walk left when you can go straight or back.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

nothings points to him being obito. well.. maybe except his hairstyle hahaha

timeline doesn't add up
his character doesn't add up
his powers dont add up 

nothing adds up


----------



## principito (Jul 19, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> All the sign in the manga points to Tobi is really Obito is disguise *but the timeline doesn't add up*. And since when Obito ever possessed Rinnegan? he died at 14 and Nagato already was a Rinnegan user at the time of his death.



c'mon u know better than that

if there is ONE thing that since chapter one doesnt add up is the fucking timeline

how many times Naruto supposedly took ninja academy? yet he graduated with same age classmates... and that's just the first of like 50 things that dont add up


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> when did I ever say the movie was canon?
> 
> If Tobi isn't Obito in the movie it doesn't mean he's gonna be Obito in the manga... that logic is flawed. That's like saying if you can't go right, you must walk left when you can go straight or back.


You're misunderstanding. That (Obito) after "Madara: has to mean something. Otherwise, why would Kishi write it? If it's not revealed in the movie, then that means Tobi is actually Obito.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> ownedddd.







eepdoodle said:


> I?m glad you asked.



Actually,

11 years before Zabuza met with team 7, he was about Naruto's age when he and Zabuza met, which was about 12, at that time.





If Obito is 30, then he would've apparently, in my opinion, been about 16 when Zabuza was about 12.


----------



## Hiiro (Jul 19, 2012)

TNPS1984 said:


> how did Obito gave Nagato Rinnegan? He wasn't even born when Nagato activated his Rinnegan.



-__- It was Madara that OBVIOUSLY gave him the Rinnegan, Tobi came MUCH later.

Do you people even read the manga?


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 19, 2012)

Wut


----------



## ronniemagia (Jul 19, 2012)

the whole thing doesn't add up, and make zero sense ... and if somehow Kishi ends up making Tobi = Obito, and asspulls an explanation for it, then he proves %100 to his fans that he's just plain stupid.


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 19, 2012)

Personally, I like the Tobito theory. Obito could still have plot relevance at this point and make for a decent reveal in terms of story. I?m not jaded and against it just for the hell of it.

My only gripe is the myriad of logical inconsistencies that surround the idea. If Kishi can come up with a creative way to resolve these then I?d be fine. If he just ignores them, then I?ll have no recourse but to except what would be, in my opinion, shit writing.



Sareth said:


> See that's where you're wrong. Many people argue against someone else using Obito's body. T-Bag and eepdoodle in this thread, for example.



I am against the Obito body snatcher theory also because it makes very little tactical sense to me.

Obito was an unremarkable shinobi. Among his clan, he was probably the least talented of his generation. Couple that with the horrific condition he was in at the end of the gaiden and you have one seriously poor vessel. The Uchiha weren?t extinct yet. There would have been plenty, more capable sharingan users, not buried under rubble, to choose from. His only significance, plot-wise, was as a catalyst for Kakashi. No one would have looked twice. Why go through so much effort for so little.


----------



## KAKASHI10 (Jul 19, 2012)

This shit is getting out of hand. And I tought that thse things were never be top, but this seem to give a run for their money.
- Naruto book TNJ
- Itachi resurection
- 6th coffin
- Itachi win vs nagato
- crow job power.


----------



## Hiiro (Jul 19, 2012)

spankdatbitch said:


> Are these the same 10 yr olds that predicted Itachi to be good,the akatsuki leader (and Karin) to be related to Naruto etc?If so prepare yourself for yet another embarrassing smack down.You guys just never learn I swear



Umm...technically they WERE correct in their predictions with Nagato and Karin being related to Naruto...they're from the same clan -__-

Get your facts straight if you're going to try to bash on other peoples opinions.


----------



## Hiiro (Jul 19, 2012)

How does it not add up? Give me any reason and I'll counter you with a valid argument.


----------



## Lelouch71 (Jul 19, 2012)

He claimed that he was Madara. He also claimed that he fought Hashirama which is clearly not the case. I would take everything he said in that fight with Konan with a grain of salt. The real Madara might have done those things but definitely not Tobi. Even this Kishi doesn't give a darn either way so stop worrying about it.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 19, 2012)

Hiiro said:


> -__- It was Madara that OBVIOUSLY gave him the Rinnegan, Tobi came MUCH later.
> 
> Do you people even read the manga?



So the real Madara took out his own eyeballs and put them into a kid, then lingered around for more than a decade before meeting Obito/Tobi?


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> Actually,
> 
> 11 years before Zabuza met with team 7, he was about Naruto's age when he and Zabuza met, which was about 12, at that time.
> 
> ...


That's right! The body of Obito must be about 4-5 years older than Zabuza, hence, making it possible for Tobi to have used it while manipulating the 4th Mizukage. Wonderful. Thank you, I will rep you when I can.



eepdoodle said:


> I am against the Obito body snatcher theory also because it makes very little tactical sense to me.
> 
> Obito was an unremarkable shinobi. Among his clan, he was probably the least talented of his generation.


Obito's Sharingan is special. Look at what Kakashi can do with his left, and what Tobi is doing with his right. That's why Tobi needed it, along with his body. That's why he didn't switch to two Rinnegan eyes instead of just one.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You're misunderstanding. That (Obito) after "Madara: has to mean something. Otherwise, why would Kishi write it? If it's not revealed in the movie, then that means Tobi is actually Obito.



Your basing this all off the movie?

Cause in the manga, there is so much wrong with Obito being Tobi that it's not even funny. The only thing against Izuna being Tobi is that he's 'irrelevant'. Yet, the speculated back story I gave is most plausible. As you speculate things of how Obito survived and came back was trained, I speculate how Izuna could have met Kakashi and Gai.

These speculations go hand in hand on both sides. It's whether you want to take note of them or not that decides your judgement.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Simple answer: He didn't, it was the original Madara who did.



Marsala said:


> So the real Madara took out his own eyeballs and put them into a kid,



Why not? He did the transplant on himself while blind before, he could sure as hell do it a second time.



> then lingered around for more than a decade before meeting Obito/Tobi?



No, he died immediately after, as he said.


----------



## Hiiro (Jul 19, 2012)

Marsala said:


> So the real Madara took out his own eyeballs and put them into a kid, then lingered around for more than a decade before meeting Obito/Tobi?



How do you expect me to answer a question that can't be answered due to no supporting evidence? All I can point out is that Madara commented about Nagato as if he was expecting him to revive him.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi is clearly someone who knows Kakashi and Gai on a personal level. How else would he know about Gai not able to remember faces and Kakshi' life is full of regrets. Who else could that person be from Konoha besides Obito? But Obito has the hair and and sharingan. His motivation of doing so might have something to do Kakshi's failure to protect Rin. But again the timelines doesn't add up. Obito never possessed Rinnegan and attacked Konoha. And he doesn't have any beef with Minato and 9 tails.


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Your basing this all off the movie?
> 
> Cause in the manga, there is so much wrong with Obito being Tobi that it's not even funny. The only thing against Izuna being Tobi is that he's 'irrelevant'. Yet, the speculated back story I gave is most plausible. As you speculate things of how Obito survived and came back was trained, I speculate how Izuna could have met Kakashi and Gai.
> 
> These speculations go hand in hand on both sides. It's whether you want to take note of them or not that decides your judgement.


There is nothing wrong with the actual real canon Tobi actually being Obito. After the latest chapter, this should be obvious. Think of the emotional reaction of the fans and characters and how much weight Tobi actually being Obito holds. Tobi being Izuna or anyone else just doesn't make sense. No one else has a face worth hiding. There's no way that mask will come off to reveal the face of a random old ass Uchiha that none of us will care about.

Well, anyway. I guess under the right circumstances, Tobi being Izuna could work slightly. If you could actually give me some good evidence that Tobi could be Izuna. As in, things that actually suggest it, I'll consider it a possibility. I consider Tobi being Obito to be the most likely, but if you provide enough evidence for Izuna, then I'l put him as my second option.

Lol, who am I kidding? He's Obito. But I'd still like to see what evidence there is to suggest that he's Izuna. I don't really think anything ever pointed to him. Especially since I can't see Kishi doing that, based on his writing style.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 19, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Simple answer: He didn't, it was the original Madara who did.
> 
> 
> 
> Why not? He did the transplant on himself while blind before, he could sure as hell do it a second time.


Madara was head of the Uchiha clan at the time and could have easily arranged to have the operation performed.




> No, he died immediately after, as he said.



Then the real Madara never met Tobi, which is contradicted by Madara thinking that the war must be "his" doing. Madara knows who Tobi is, or at least knows him.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 19, 2012)

that would be awesome,but then why would he want sasuke and naruto to fight? why he be so concerned about the legacy of uchiha?


----------



## Hiiro (Jul 19, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Madara was head of the Uchiha clan at the time and could have easily arranged to have the operation performed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We'll just have to wait and see, that's all we can do. We don't know for sure so it's pointless to continue bickering over who's assumption is "more plausible."


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 19, 2012)

Sareth said:


> Obito's Sharingan is special. Look at what Kakashi can do with his left, and what Tobi is doing with his right. That's why Tobi needed it, along with his body. That's why he didn't switch to two Rinnegan eyes instead of just one.



Hey, if that?s how it turns out, then cool. I?m not sure how anyone could have determined its uniqueness after him using it once and for nothing particularly noteworthy, but I like the idea.

Maybe Obito?s family had similar sharingan ability. Perhaps he came from a lineage that Mr. Mask would know of. Not a bad theory.


----------



## Lelouch71 (Jul 19, 2012)

Marsala said:


> It would be worse than Nagato going evil because his dog died.


But Nagato didn't go "evil" because his dog died. He was still a good man after that fact. He became corrupt after Hanzou backstabbed his organization and got Yahiko dead. 

Anyway it would be an original idea for this manga. The main villain being pissed off because his old lady got killed. Kishi loves making his village misguided and have sob stories so I wouldn't put it past Kishi.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 19, 2012)

Hold on. Why is everyone assuming that Nagato received a transplant? 

Maybe Madara simply transferred his DNA or chakra to Nagato in hopes that he grew the Rinnegan.

I think Nagato's parents would have remembered that their son got an eye transplant.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

eepdoodle said:


> Hey, if that’s how it turns out, then cool. I’m not sure how anyone could have determined its uniqueness after him using it once and for nothing particularly noteworthy, but I like the idea.
> 
> *Maybe Obito’s family had similar sharingan ability. Perhaps he came from a lineage that Mr. Mask would know of.* Not a bad theory.


Maybe Kagami, who looks extremely similar to Obito, is Obito's dad? Kagami is the same age as Hiruzen and Danzo. Maybe he had an awesome Sharingan, and that's how Tobi knew that his son's Sharingan would be special.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Descent of the Lion said:


> Hold on. Why is everyone assuming that Nagato received a transplant?
> 
> Maybe Madara simply transferred his DNA or chakra to Nagato in hopes that he grew the Rinnegan.
> 
> I think Nagato's parents would have remembered that their son got an eye transplant.



Tobi's statement that the eyes were "his to begin with" seems to suggest that the eyes are actually Madara's.


----------



## Lelouch71 (Jul 19, 2012)

8 said:


> i think most tobito supporters are fully aware of all this. its just that they don't trust the consistency of this story.


I know that I don't. This is the same manga where fanfics ideas on NF come a reality. I thought many people were stupid to believe that Itachi or Madara would free themselves because it wouldn't make any sense. Look what happen. Common sense has no place with Kishi and his writing.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

I think it could be *a* motivation but not necessarily his only one.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

That would make Tobi around 35 maybe 40 at best... with Tobi's knowledge it makes sense that he's an Uchiha who is that old and has been around to have witnesses everything. Not to mention that has made all of those remarks belittling opponents who would be older or around the same age as Obito.



there's more on it if your read through it instead of the first post.


----------



## subzero0204 (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi is Nawaki , everything about him fits the bill , connections to the senju uzumaki clans.
He has distinct facial features that would be recognised hence the mask , he was in orichimaru's team so there is that connection , he would know details about sealing due to mito , body was destroyed ? , his great uncle was tobirama. I am struggling to find reasons why it cant be him , please help me out here with some criticisms on this


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

8 said:


> i think most tobito supporters are fully aware of all this. its just that they don't trust the consistency of this story.



Heh, that's one way of putting it.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 19, 2012)

eepdoodle said:


> Tobi was mind raping Yagura while Obito was still a child. How does this jive with the Tobito theory?



Kasami is only a little older than Kakashi.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 19, 2012)

Descent of the Lion said:


> Hold on. Why is everyone assuming that Nagato received a transplant?
> 
> Maybe Madara simply transferred his DNA or chakra to Nagato in hopes that he grew the Rinnegan.
> 
> I think Nagato's parents would have remembered that their son got an eye transplant.



Either way, it shouldn't matter. Madara said that he awakened Rinnegan shortly before his death, and he certainly couldn't have given Rinnegan to Nagato before he got it himself.

Madara should not have lived long enough to meet Obito.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi's "knowledge" doesn't mean anything.

Literally everything he knows is stuff he read off the Uchiha tablet.


----------



## Lelouch71 (Jul 19, 2012)

Whoever Tobi is obviously someone we seen before otherwise there would be no point in hiding his identity for this long. I thought the Tobi=Obito was stupid too but I'm starting to begrudgingly join the bandwagon.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

No.

There is absolutely zero evidence that points to Tobi having a grudge of some kind against Kakashi.

In-fact, he's been mostly polite to him.

I think the grudge would be toward Minato (If Tobi is Obito). As Minato failed to protect him, failed to protect Rin etc.

But then, there isn't any hint of that in the Tobi VS Minato situation, either.

He targeted Minato's family because his wife was the Kyuubi Jinchurriki, and her seal would be at it's weakest during child-birth.

Add in the comment he made to her "Do you know how long I've waited for this?!" and it points to it not being Obito (As the Kyuubi attack happened 1 year or so after Obito's death).

I think, if it is Obito, it's simply his body/face, but not himself. Physically he fits with regards to the Sharingan/His Warping/His Hair/His Body Being Weird, but mentally, it falls flat on it's face.

He was far to powerful in far to short of a time (1 year, going toe to toe with Minato, and Minato not recognizing him, but considered him possibly to be Madara).

That said, there ARE work arounds.

We know he is made up of Zetsu Goop on both sides of his body (Lost both left and right arms in Battles VS Minato, Konan, Torune/Fuu) we know he has metal going through his body for structure (Blocking Suigetso's Sword strike and the resulting "ding" sound like metal on metal) and we know Zetsu can copy a persons chakra and memories perfectly.

So it's possible it's Obito's broken body, held together by metal and Zetsu Goop, which allowed him to clone Madara's chakra and memories.

But I think that's to complex, and especially so for a 14/15 year old to achieve within a year of his death.

I'm sticking to my theory. It's Izuna inside Obito's body held together with Zetsu crap. Madara tried to revive his brother, and this led to him slowly dieing, and Izuna being revived without a body (This is the genesis of his Phasing ability) Madara either had Zetsu record his memories, or he implanted his memories in a Zetsu clone that would trigger a Genjutsu once a Sharingan looked into it's eyes.

Zetsu later came across Obito's broken body (Possibly trailing Uchiha's who were outside Konoha) and took the body before the second cave-in killed him.

Ergo, Tobi is Izuna Uchiha's spirit locked inside Obito's body with all of Madara's memories/knowledge. Thus, he calls himself No One.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

subzero0204 said:


> Tobi is Nawaki , everything about him fits the bill , connections to the senju uzumaki clans.
> He has distinct facial features that would be recognised hence the mask , he was in orichimaru's team so there is that connection , he would know details about sealing due to mito , body was destroyed ? , his great uncle was tobirama. I am struggling to find reasons why it cant be him , please help me out here with some criticisms on this



Unlike say, Obito, Nawaki's corpse was actually recovered.


----------



## OgreMagi (Jul 19, 2012)

very cool theory.

 tobi might also be kakashi's mom which would explain a lot - like she hates ninja after what happened to her husband.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 19, 2012)

Hiiro said:


> Umm...technically they WERE correct in their predictions with Nagato and Karin being related to Naruto...they're from the same clan -__-
> 
> Get your facts straight if you're going to try to bash on other peoples opinions.



I think he was implying that the 10-year-olds with the ridiculous theories are about to be right again.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 19, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Either way, it shouldn't matter. Madara said that he awakened Rinnegan shortly before his death, and he certainly couldn't have given Rinnegan to Nagato before he got it himself.



Unless of course he was testing a theory or was simply unable to apply the process on himself. 


Nagato was Uzumaki and seems to be better fit for Rinne than Madara. Otherwise why would Kabuto and Orochimaru need to perfect it in him with a large portion of Hashirama? 

I doubt that Madara would have had the time to give Nagato Rinne and then factor him in his plan shortly before his death.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 19, 2012)

Descent of the Lion said:


> Unless of course he was testing a theory or was simply unable to apply the process on himself.
> 
> 
> Nagato was Uzumaki and seems to be better fit for Rinne than Madara. Otherwise why would Kabuto and Orochimaru need to perfect it in him with a large portion of Hashirama?
> ...



But the whole reason that Nagato was in the plan was to resurrect Madara when the time came. And Madara implied that Nagato was still a child when he died.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Jul 19, 2012)

That would explain why Kakashi's Kamui supposedly wouldn't have worked against Tobi. Tobi doesn't seem to be using MS though and his Sharingan is on the wrong side.


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 19, 2012)

Sareth said:


> Maybe Kagami, who looks extremely similar to Obito, is Obito's dad? Kagami is the same age as Hiruzen and Danzo. Maybe he had an awesome Sharingan, and that's how Tobi knew that his son's Sharingan would be special.



Hmm, you?d think he?d just snatch the eye then instead of the body. Unless he couldn?t for some reason.



Descent of the Lion said:


> Kasami is only a little older than Kakashi.



Right. Why is Kisame?s age relevant to determining how old Obito is? I guess I missed your point.


----------



## Marik Swift (Jul 19, 2012)

Would be better than it being Obito. Would stop reading Naruto immediately if ever its reveal its Tobi.; particularly because I called a fuckton of people dumbasses for believing that.​


----------



## subzero0204 (Jul 19, 2012)

by orichimaru , would you trust that guy with your "dead body" pervy sage stopped granny T from seeing the corpse just gave her the necklace , remember this was around the time orichimaru was taking kids for his experiments


----------



## Raiden (Jul 19, 2012)

I agree with Lelouch71 and Klue. It doesn't make any sense, but Kishimoto is making the "hints" strong. So I guess there's another plot twist or loop that was missed. It would explain why Obito's story is the only side plot Kishimoto took time to explain some more.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Tobi's "knowledge" doesn't mean anything.
> 
> Literally everything he knows is stuff he read off the Uchiha tablet.



how about when he gave Nagato the Rinnegan?

How about how Kyuubi knew his chakra signature?

how about how he knows Madara, since after all Madara died shortly before activating Rinnegan. Meaning he never got the chance to give Nagato the Rinnegan. Meaning Tobi must have. And if Nagato is older than Minato, then how is it possible that Obito did this?

He refers to Kakashi, Gai, Konan, Nagato as kids. Even says he sees shodai in Naruto. Hows that possible if Obito didn't live then?

These questions aren't answered in the shrine, are they?


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

eepdoodle said:


> Hmm, you’d think he’d just snatch the eye then instead of the body. Unless he couldn’t for some reason.


The eye might work better within the family. Tobi could even _be_ Kagami, an old man who went looking for his son's body, found it, took control over it, formed Akatsuki with it, etc. That would be some twisted shit.

Tobirama was Kagami's sensei, and a prominent user of S/T jutsus. Tobi's S/T jutsu might be an improved version of Tobirama's, enhanced by Obito's Sharingan.

I know it seems far fetched, but the possibilities are endless.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 19, 2012)

Marsala said:


> But the whole reason that Nagato was in the plan was to resurrect Madara when the time came. And Madara implied that Nagato was still a child when he died.



Madara got cut off when he said grow. Besides we're talking about a guy that speaks of everyone like they're a kid. He would have been in his hundreds at the time. Plus this assumes that he met Nagato towards the end of his life. For all we know he could have met Nagato when Nagato was a kid and never seen him since.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 19, 2012)

Marsala said:


> But the whole reason that Nagato was in the plan was to resurrect Madara when the time came. And Madara implied that Nagato was still a child when he died.



Perhaps even an adult Nagato was still a "brat" to Madara.

He still treats Oonoki as a kid too.
"regrettable opponent"


----------



## DUNGEON (Jul 19, 2012)

Wonderful theory.


----------



## fantzipants (Jul 19, 2012)

It's hashirama and madara was the good guy all along


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 19, 2012)

Either "Tobito" is meant to be or is just a staggering amount of red herrings.

Time will tell but everything can be explained...even if it sounds silly.


----------



## DremolitoX (Jul 19, 2012)

What about naruto? He mastered rasenshuriken, sage mode, was given kyuubi mode + bijudama in the span of ...what......3 months?

Time isn't an issue, trust me.

I'd focus more on the whole issue with kisame and the mizukage. It's hard to make sense out of that one at this point.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

DremolitoX said:


> What about naruto? He mastered rasenshuriken, sage mode, was given kyuubi mode + bijudama in the span of ...what......3 months?
> 
> Time isn't an issue, trust me.


This. And time certainly isn't an issue when your body is being possessed by some old Uchiha genius, who knows everything there is to know about the Uchiha, making all decisions for you.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 19, 2012)

Velocity said:


> So, anyway, yes, that's the single greatest flaw in the Tobito theory. There simply isn't _time_. Even if you try to wrangle it so Tobi is secretly the Six Million Dollar Man, where a mostly-dead Obito was taken by Zetsu, his limbs replaced and his mind horribly distorted by brainwashing, you're still left with a character who could never have attained the power necessary to do what he did in such a short space of time.
> 
> I don't really care who Tobi actually is, but Obito is easily the least likely.



I'd say that its single greatest opponent are those who dismiss _perfectly okay_ explanations, under the pretext of satisfying some vague sense of plausibility.

Why couldn't Obito have been given Zetsu parts? Tobi has shown that he has Zetsu parts, after all. That could even explain his height, when he was around 14. Why dismiss Izanami as a means to brainwash him? If Kabuto wants to escape from Izanami, any time soon, he'll have to do it _brainwashed_.

As far as his capability, did we not see a _completely different_ Obito after his sharingan had awoken? Please tell me, then, how we are to _accurately_ determine his potential.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

Sareth said:


> This. And time certainly isn't an issue when your body is being possessed by some old Uchiha genius, who knows everything there is to know about the Uchiha, making all decisions for you.


Also:


----------



## Blur (Jul 19, 2012)

What if Tobi is Kakashi from the past?


----------



## DremolitoX (Jul 19, 2012)

Seriously. After what I pointed out about naruto, you can't say Obito couldn't have learned kamui, intangibility, kyuubi stuff in 1 year with The Man Who Knows Everything About The Sharingan as his teacher.

Dedicate your time to solving the kisame-tobi-mizukage mistery instead.


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 19, 2012)

Are we assuming Nagato has false memories of his childhood at this point?


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

I just don't see how Tobi could be Izuna. Madara and Izuna were said to be near equals. If that's the case, then Tobi's not NEARLY strong enough to be Izuna.

The only Tobi candidates that can match up to Tobi's shown level of power are Obito and maybe Kagami since we don't know much of his abilities.

And how does Izuna know Kakashi personally? In Kakashi's time he'd be like 90 years old. Do you really think Kakashi and Guy would just be friends all of a sudden with a worn out evil old piece of shit? I don't think so.


----------



## ShadowReij (Jul 19, 2012)

Neh, I just look at the fact that Tobi seems to still have 2 halves to his face in good condition while Obito would only have one. But meh, I'm willing to bet Chap 600 we'll see his face.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

tobi is a fucking old man. he called kakashi and konan fucking children........... 

does calling someone your age, or older than you (konan) a "child" make any sense? hell no. tobi worked with madara when nagato was kid, and told kushina he's waited a very long time to attack konoha. he cant POSSIBLY be obito

people use some common sense, seriously


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> U mad?(lol.) I wouldn't cry if Tobi's not Obito. I'd be fine as long as he's someone we've seen before. But, Obito just makes the most sense. And, if there's one thing I know, it's that Tobi's identity has been set from the start, and has never changed. Knowing the way Kishi writes and plans things out, he wouldn't have changed it.
> 
> When will this thread be finished?!?!
> 
> Tobi's identity thread part 2 FTW!!!!



 Unrevealed characters to the readers makes more sense than Obito, even your theory states that Kakashi was supose to be evil by now.


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> How about how Kurama knew his chakra signature?
> 
> how about how he knows Madara, since after all Madara died shortly before activating Rinnegan. Meaning he never got the chance to give Nagato the Rinnegan. Meaning Tobi must have. And if Nagato is older than Minato, then how is it possible that Obito did this?
> 
> He refers to Kakashi, Gai, Konan, Nagato as kids. Even says he sees shodai in Naruto. Hows that possible if Obito didn't live then?


Kurama most likely just recognized the ability to summon him. It's also possible that Obito's chakra became dark like Madara's. or Kurama just recognized Obito from before.

I'm pretty sure that Nagato's Rinnegan eyes were not Madara's. When Madara got Edo'd, he assumed Nagato used Rinne Tensei on him. Since, people are supposed to be Rinne Tensei'd in the state they died in, wouldn't Madara have been shocked by still having his eyes perfectly intact? Well, he wasn't shocked at all, which implies that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan some other way.

About calling them children, that was part of his whole Madara act.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

It's simple really. Obito's spacebound,..

"I'm a space bound rocket ship and your heart's the moon.
And I'm aiming right at you"

Rin's heart is the moon. Hence why Obito wants to use the moon to complete infinite tsukuyomi.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

obito fans just have an answer to everything, dont they prodigy? lol


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

Meh. It's either Obito in someway (Body at the very least)

Or it's an exact replication of Madara by White Zetsu.


----------



## DremolitoX (Jul 19, 2012)

*My take on Tobi*

Now then, we all know what Madara's hobby is, right? 

 We also know that "Tobi" is a type of hawk/bird, ?



Moving on....

Near the end of his life, Madara (or zetsu, whatever) finds Obito where he was left to die under the rubble. The fix/heal/train/TnJ him, but most importantly: Madara uses some kind of genjutsu/sharingan ability to ingrain part of his personality into Obito so the latter could carry on the former's wishes(manage akatsuki, collect bijuu, moon's eye, revive Madara.) Soon after this, Madara (the falconry guy) dies and his trainee, Tobi (the falcon) is left to carry on with the plan.

This would explain why Tobi seems to think he was Madara at times (with kabuto+ zetsu, with the kyuubi)


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 19, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> how about when he gave Nagato the Rinnegan?
> 
> *we don't know enough to say that.*
> 
> ...





/10charchar


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I just don't see how Tobi could be Izuna. Madara and Izuna were said to be near equals. If that's the case, then Tobi's not NEARLY strong enough to be Izuna.
> 
> The only Tobi candidates that can match up to Tobi's shown level of power are Obito and maybe Kagami since we don't know much of his abilities.
> 
> And how does Izuna know Kakashi personally? In Kakashi's time he'd be like 90 years old. Do you really think Kakashi and Guy would just be friends all of a sudden with a worn out evil old piece of shit? I don't think so.



Izuna and madara were said to be equals in everyway down to chakra. Growing older could have made him weaker, not to mention the surgery where he had MS and downgraded sharingan could have weakened him as well. But mostly the old factor. 

As for knowing Kakashi and Gai. He learned things while snooping around Konoha. Surely going undetected by Konoha's barrier could've snooped around the Anbu and the higher ups of the political system. But that's pure speculation for now.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Kurama most likely just recognized the ability to summon him. It's also possible that Obito's chakra became dark like Madara's. or Kurama just recognized Obito from before.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that Nagato's Rinnegan eyes were not Madara's. When Madara got Edo'd, he assumed Nagato used Rinne Tensei on him. Since, people are supposed to be Rinne Tensei'd in the state they died in, wouldn't Madara have been shocked by still having his eyes perfectly intact? Well, he wasn't shocked at all, which implies that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan some other way.
> 
> About calling them children, that was part of his whole Madara act.



Since when could Obito summon Kyuubi. Did he practice in a cave somewhere, underground or something. That's a plothole....

Technically, Nagato's Rinnegan eyes would be Izuna's because Madara took Izuna's eyes to gain EMS then unlock the Rinnegan. If Madara got the Rinnegan near death Tobi most likely gave Nagato the Rinnegan.

People don't have to revived through RIne tensei in the state they died in. Otherwise that'd mean Itachi would've revived blind. Madara said it himself, that Nagato finally revived him or so he thought. Who else had a Rinnegan at the time? Madara gave Tobi his eyes when he expected his death was approaching.

why would he continue the act? his cover was already blown. There would be no point in pretending to be Madara after we found out that Madara was Edo Tensie'd


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

Descent of the Lion said:


> Assumes that Madara would need to have the rinnegan to give someone the power to get it. Kabuto enhanced Madara's ability, but obviously can't do what Madara can.



Well yes. Otherwise a RInnegan just came out of thin air or something. Madara gave Tobi RInnegan right when he approached death's door. Tobi gave it to kid Nagato and Nagato is older than Minato. And Obito wasn't even born yet around this time.



T-Bag said:


> obito fans just have an answer to everything, dont they prodigy? lol



Seriously. The timeline alone man. I mean


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 19, 2012)

I love how everyone ignores the canon facts that during Nidaimes reign some Uchiha turned rebels due to the Senju Supremacy and decided to follow into Madaras footsteps while we are also told that "Madara" is not just a name but an Ideal.

Meanwhile we have a coincidence of a guy calling himself Madara and Tobi.
Yeah.Awkward coincidence.


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

Most people disregarded this theory until yesterday's chapter where they read too much into Tobi's words to Kakashi and Gai. It could have been a slight mistranslation for all we know.


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> obito fans just have an answer to everything, dont they prodigy? lol


Yes, because there exists an answer for all the shit you're spewing. At least Prodigy94 can debate. All you're doing is blabbering how Tobi can't be Obito without giving any reasons. You're annoying. Just stop coming here as you obviously can't contribute anything.



Prodigy94 said:


> Izuna and madara were said to be equals in everyway down to chakra. Growing older could have made him weaker, not to mention the surgery where he had MS and downgraded sharingan could have weakened him as well. But mostly the old factor.
> 
> As for knowing Kakashi and Gai. He learned things while snooping around Konoha. Surely going undetected by Konoha's barrier could've snooped around the Anbu and the higher ups of the political system. But that's pure speculation for now.
> 
> ...


What you're saying about Izuna does make sense... I'll have to think more on that matter before I consider it a solid possibility.

About Kurama recognizing Obito, I guess I should have been more clear, lol. I offered other possible explanations as well but the one says Kurama recognized Obito does kind of make sense if you think about it. We know that Kurama can watch the outside world from inside his host, and of course Minato could've shown his wife to his team. So, Kurama could recognize him from there. Even if this is a fail possibility, the other reasons I gave still stand.

What you said regarding Rinne Tensei makes me think you misunderstood what I intended with that post. Rinne Tensei revives you in the state you died in. Edo Tensei, however, does not. Itachi was resurrected with Edo Tensei, not Rinne. My argument still stands. It's not like this poses a threat to your Izuna theory anyways. It's supportive of the Obito theory, but it doesn't really _dis_prove anything.

Tobi referred to everyone as children BEFORE Madara got Edo'd, so your argument is invalid.

There is nothing really contradicting the timeline anymore except for power increases, which, if people would open their minds, they'd see it wouldn't be a problem as Obit's sharingan had enormous potential.(MS and Space-Time)

Besides, sure Izuna could know about Kakashi and Guy, but how would either of them know what Izuna looks like? Huge fucking plothole right there. It's canon that Guy and Kakashi have seen Tobi's true identity before.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Yes, because there exists an answer for all the shit you're spewing. At least Prodigy94 can debate. All you're doing is blabbering how ti can't be Obito without giving any reasons. You're annoying. Just stop coming here as you obviously can't contribute anything.


oh im the one spewing shit? the irony is unfathomable 

i really think that "limited tsukuyomi" is kicking in for you guys.. hahaha


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 19, 2012)

Readers are told that during Nidaimes reign Uchiha turned rebels due to being screwed over by Tobirama and the Senju reigning strong.
Said Rebels were Madara followers.
Madara stated as Ideal.

Obito = Tobi despite the latter shown during the Bloody Mist with tremendous long hair and the BM being more than 17+ years in the past.
Tobi recognized as the same person Kisame met.

Riiiiiight.
Kisame met a weak Uchiha kid who mindfucked a Kage and Jinchuuriki and turned the entire country into batshit.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> oh im the one spewing shit? the irony is unfathomable
> 
> i really think that "limited tsukuyomi" is kicking in for you guys.. hahaha



You really do have issues with debate. 

You get personal, launch into belittlement's all with a condescending and snobbish tone.

I think you'd be better served keeping away from this subject, as it seems to be to personal for you to handle. You are to emotionally invested in this Manga, or at the very least, in who Tobi is and who Tobi is not to have a rational discussion with.


----------



## GunX2 (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi knew Madara.....how can he be Obito?


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It's canon that Guy and Kakashi have seen Tobi's true identity before.



I know what you mean but could you elaborate a bit more in detail please.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

i only react how i see fit bro.


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> oh im the one spewing shit? the irony is unfathomable
> 
> i really think that "limited tsukuyomi" is kicking in for you guys.. hahaha


I don't even understand what you just said. What does Limited Tsukuyomi have to do with anything. Like i said, you're not contributing ANYTHING here. YOU'RE the one spewing shit. I don't care if you're with or against me, but if you can't even come up with anything to post, and you're just going to throw insults at people, then GTFO. There's no point in you being on this thread. If you don't agree with me, fine. But don't just stick around here to insult me. It's annoying and pathetic. You are being extremely immature and ignorant. I suggest you take my advice, though I doubt you'll listen.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 19, 2012)

Also if possible I'd like an explanation for this:

Bloody Mist Era was at least 17+ years in the past considering Zabuzas class massacre took place at least a year before Narutos birth.Canon fact read back through the Land of Waves Arc.
We saw "Madara" meeting Kisame.
I'd like to know how Obito can be the person who mindfucked Yagura, a Kage and Jinchuuriki and caused the Bloody Mist, while Kisame had official recognized the current Tobi as that Mizukage.


----------



## 4ghost (Jul 19, 2012)

Velocity said:


> Nope. Obito died when Kakashi was 13-14. The Nine Tails attacked Konohagakure when Kakashi was 13-14, since Kakashi is 29-30 years old _now_ and the Nine Tail's attack took place 16 years ago on the day Naruto was born.
> 
> So it was less than a year.
> 
> ...



I'll first say that I do not think that Tobi is Obito, however I do have to correct you on your timeline a bit.

It is accurate that the Kyuubi attacked Konoha 16 years ago which would make Kakashi 14.  However Kakashi was actually either 12 years old or 11 going on 12 when Obito died. Which would mean that the Kyuubi incident took place more than a year after Obito's death.  It's even possible that it took place as much as 2 years and 8 months after Obito's death. 

These following links are where it can be seen how I arrived at those ages.



For the record my theory is that Tobi is actually Obito's older brother.


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

*I will bet anyone $100 that Tobi is not Obito.*

So I guess like 80% of people here seem convinced that Tobi is Obito thanks to some dialogue between Tobi, Kakashi and Gai in the latest chapter. Well, I think the theory is pretty retarded and too full of inconsistencies to ever have any reasonable chance of being true. 

Which one of you Tobito champions is willing to step up to the plate and put your money where your mouth is? Ya'll bin talking mad shit yo, time to back dat shit up like real men

Conditions: if Tobi is revealed to be either Obito in person or Obito's body mixed with zetsu shit/Madara's consciousness/Orochimaru's sperm then I'll give you $100. The only thing I wont accept is a) it's someone different using Obito's eye or b) it's someone completely different but with Obito's hair or face transplanted on them. Obito's head I'll accept. If Tobi turns out to be anyone or anything else, then you give me $100. Even if he turns out to be Obito's long lost identical twin or something I still win (won't happen anyway). The terms/amount of the bet are up for negotiation if you want to bet a lower amount or do something different. Either way, I like free money, so bring it.


P.S. if you are kishi I won't bet you


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> I know what you mean but could you elaborate a bit more in detail please.


Tobi said, "You don't remember faces anyway." This means that, if Guy could remember faces, he'd know who Tobi is. At the very least Guy has seen him before and it sounds like Kakashi knows him even better, judging by how Tobi talked to him.



T-Bag said:


> i only react how i see fit bro.


Then you must not see things too clearly...


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I don't even understand what you just said. What does Limited Tsukuyomi have to do with anything. Like i said, you're not contributing ANYTHING here. YOU'RE the one spewing shit. I don't care if you're with or against me, but if you can't even come up with anything to post, and you're just going to throw insults at people, then GTFO. There's no point in you being on this thread. If you don't agree with me, fine. But don't just stick around here to insult me. It's annoying and pathetic. You are being extremely immature and ignorant. I suggest you take my advice, though I doubt you'll listen.



u said i didnt contribute anything? for like 2 days now i been telling you peoples *how* your gay theory makes no sense, and all i've been getting is some extremely far fetched reasons. reasons that i can make just about any fucking character tobi. even naruto

kishimoto would have too be a real idiot, to make your theory come true. i mean like a complete idiot


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi said, "You don't remember faces anyway." This means that, if Guy could remember faces, he'd know who Tobi is.
> 
> At the very least Guy has seen him before and it sounds like Kakashi knows him even better, judging by how Tobi talked t him.



There is another interpretation for this.
Kisames info to Tobi:
Guy never remembered him.
Thus it can also be understood as:
"Why show you my face when you are gonna forget it anyway?Thus there is no need to do so."
It doesn't mean 100% Gai knows him but could also be meant that due to Gai being unable to remember faces there is no need to show who he really is even as a stranger.


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> Also if possible I'd like an explanation for this:
> 
> Bloody Mist Era was at least 17+ years in the past considering Zabuzas class massacre took place at least a year before Narutos birth.Canon fact read back through the Land of Waves Arc.
> We saw "Madara" meeting Kisame.
> I'd like to know how Obito can be the person who mindfucked Yagura, a Kage and Jinchuuriki and caused the Bloody Mist, while Kisame had official recognized the current Tobi as that Mizukage.


Was there ever a confirmation on exactly when and how long the Bloody Mist Ere was? I don't believe so, someone give me the link and I'l believe it. Yagura looks around 30. No way he'd be Mizukage at 13.

But, if what you say is true. It's impossible that Madara was the one doing it the whole time or after a time he switched out with Tobi(Obito).


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

lucid1 said:


> Conditions: if Tobi is revealed to be either Obito in person or Obito's body mixed with zetsu shit/Madara's consciousness/Orochimaru's sperm then I'll give you $100.


Foolish bet for you, my friend.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 19, 2012)

How about this.

We both pick who we think Tobi is.

Loser has to slash his wrist/throat or stab himself in the stomach.

If both of us lose, we pat eachother (Not literally)on the back and move on.

Willing?


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Was there ever a confirmation on exactly when and how long the Bloody Mist Ere was? I don't believe so, someone give me the link and I'l believe it. Yagura looks around 30. No way he'd be Mizukage at 13.
> 
> But, if what you say is true. It's impossible that Madara was the one doing it the whole time or after a time he switched out with Tobi(Obito).



Idk the years on phone. Take zabuxzas age and subtract to whenever he was 12-13 or so to find when the era ended

An yahura just looked young, he wasn't actually ypung


----------



## KevKev (Jul 19, 2012)

There's no way you're betting on something in a manga...don't do it bro

Kishi reads NF he'll troll you


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What you're saying about Izuna does make sense... I'll have to think more on that matter before I consider it a solid possibility.
> 
> About Kurama recognizing Obito, I guess I should have been more clear, lol. I offered other possible explanations as well but the one says Kurama recognized Obito does kind of make sense if you think about it. *We know that Kurama can watch the outside world from inside his host, and of course Minato could've shown his wife to his team.* So, Kurama could recognize him from there. Even if this is a fail possibility, the other reasons I gave still stand.
> 
> ...



It seems we have reached a standstill, I concede on the above arguments, (and that was a fail me accidentally switch Rine with Edo) for now .


----------



## Mateush (Jul 19, 2012)

This gonna be interesting to see if either you or the loser really will pay as promised.


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> u said i didnt contribute anything? for like 2 days now i been telling you peoples *how* your gay theory makes no sense, and all i've been getting is some extremely far fetched reasons. reasons that i can make just about any fucking character tobi. even naruto
> 
> kishimoto would have too be a real idiot, to make your theory come true. i mean like a complete idiot


The theory does make sense. You're just too stupid to see it. That's right. I truly think you're stupid. If you don't have anything to contribute anymore then don't post. Simple as that.

This is the most logical theory and according to Kishimoto's writing style and Japanese mythology, it's incredibly likely. This is how the manga has been written for the past 594 chapters. I'm sure it will continue to be written like that. You are just too stupid to look deep enough into the manga to realize anything. You're only calling Kishimoto stupid if this theory comes true because Tobi's not who you want him to be. Well get the FUCK over it. You are the biggest baby I've seen on this forum. Maybe you should join Narutobase. That's where all the idiotic "fans" go.




Scarlet Plague said:


> There is another interpretation for this.
> Kisames info to Tobi:
> Guy never remembered him.
> Thus it can also be understood as:
> ...


I still think that that line has some serious plot importance. Judging from their reactions. People want to believe that all these little things are unimportant, when they most likely ARE important. Kishi's not just gonna throw in random shit this far into the game.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

I bet you all that Tobi is Tarzan and if not then he's probably Tantar


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

I'm taking this bet. I don't want money. Just the satisfaction of winning.

I bet that obi is obito, the actual person, body and soul. It is the best theory.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm taking this bet. I don't want money. Just the satisfaction of winning.
> 
> I bet that obi is obito, the actual person, body and soul. It is the best theory.


Even though I don't think that Tobi is Obito in both body and soul (I'm leaning towards Obito being possessed by some old guy), I have to say, I admire your conviction.


----------



## 8 (Jul 19, 2012)

naijaboykev28 said:


> There's no way you're betting on something in a manga...don't do it bro
> 
> Kishi reads NF he'll troll you


chances are kishi takes that bet himself.


----------



## Mako (Jul 19, 2012)

Ha. More of the future theories. It was cute in DBZ, but please - don't apply them here


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Was there ever a confirmation on exactly when and how long the Bloody Mist Ere was?
> 
> I don't believe so, someone give me the link and I'l believe it. Yagura looks around 30. No way he'd be Mizukage at 13.
> 
> But, if what you say is true. It's impossible that Madara was the one doing it the whole time or after a time he switched out with Tobi(Obito).



The length of the Bloody Mist Era is irrelevant.
Haku was 15 at the time of death.
And we know his backstory.
We know his mother always kept it a secret that Haku carried a Kekkei Genkai.
Going by Zabuzas slaughter
[1]
Which took place about 11 years ago before the timeskip with Hakus ages we can safely say this.

Say Narutos YoB was 1850.
Current Time is 1865-6.
Thus before the timeskip it was 1862-63.
With 11 years past (I admit I was wrong but that is irrelevant) it means the Bloody Mist was still ongoing in 1851-52.
However with Hakus ages being about 3 years old than pre-naruto:
1848-49.
And by Kakashi statement we can safely say that the bloody mist began befor Haku was born.
Otherwise there is no reason to mention the change of the exams as it indicates that they went on for some time.
Unless...one is trying to go to the redicilous poitn of saying the Era only took place a year or two which is bullshit with Hakus mother hiding her sons secret out of fear.
See it this way:
Zabuza murdered his mates about a year after Narutos birth.
However we know Gaiden took place merely about a year prior to his birth.
Simultaniously it is bullshit to think that the Era went on for 2-3 measly years from shortly before to shortly after Narutos birth.
Indication that the exams were forced to be changed hints that they went on for quite some time if not that Yagura already lost his Kage title.
Would you think Tobi sits idly by and lets his precious Bloody Mist forced to be changed?
Thus we can probably say that it began even much earlier.

Yagura looks about 30?
Irrelevant.He is death.Current era doesn't matter.
He might have been 20 back then or Gaaras age.
The time difference to now is irrelevant.

In any case:
The Hidden Mist took place before Narutos birth.
Hakus mother hiding his Kekkei Genkai from early on to the exams being force changed indicate so.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 19, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Well yes. Otherwise a RInnegan just came out of thin air or something. Madara gave Tobi RInnegan right when he approached death's door. Tobi gave it to kid Nagato and Nagato is older than Minato. And Obito wasn't even born yet around this time.



You don't know any of this. 


Here are some  facts. Nagato was never seen receiving the eyes, and would have more than likely remembered a dude in a mask giving them to him. It's also implied that he didn't have it activated before he and his parents were attacked. if Madara already activated them then Nagato wouldn't have to.


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm taking this bet. I don't want money. Just the satisfaction of winning.
> 
> I bet that obi is obito, the actual person, body and soul. It is the best theory.



 you'll get money even if you don't want it

do u have paypal brother


----------



## Summers (Jul 19, 2012)

Dont do it. Its not Obito, but dont do it. Just cause.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Idk the years on phone. Take zabuxzas age and subtract to whenever he was 12-13 or so to find when the era ended
> 
> An yahura just looked young, he wasn't actually ypung



26.
Thus, Zabuza murdering his classmates occured very closely to Narutos birth.
However we know the bloody exams went on for longer than that to before he was born mainly to Hakus birth as his mother had to hide his Kekkei Genkai showing that potentially 3 years before Naruto was born the Bloody Mist had already begun.
And again, the exams were force changed after Zabuzas slaughter which means that Kagura/Tobi were already gone or their power severely weakened as in no way would Tobi sit idly by and let his empire be "ruined".


----------



## Mako (Jul 19, 2012)

lucid1 said:


> P.S. if you are kishi I won't bet you



  

Props to you for doing this. Will be interesting.


----------



## KevKev (Jul 19, 2012)

8 said:


> chances are kishi takes that bet himself.



AHAHAHA I can imagine someone with the username KishimotoSoloes enters the bet saying "It's Obito for78,579,904yendollars. Paypal email, bro?" :rofl


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 19, 2012)

It's really, really hard for the forum to designate what "Tobito" means, for some reason.

Tobi = Obito does not necessarily mean that Obito is actually taking part in anything going on. He didn't have to advance in strength on his own, just like...he wouldn't escape the rubble and survive his injuries alone, correct?

Would Madara really trust his Tsuki no Mei Keikaku with a 13 year old Uchiha? 

There's a million inconsistencies one could come up. _So go take a look at the theory, because you're not coming up with anything new_ that hasn't been accounted for.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 19, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> It's really, really hard for the forum to designate what "Tobito" means, for some reason.
> 
> Tobi = Obito does not necessarily mean that Obito is actually taking part in anything going on. He didn't have to advance in strength on his own, just like...he wouldn't escape the rubble and survive his injuries alone, correct?
> 
> ...



Most people would have little problem with Obito's body being possessed by someone else, but a lot of the Tobi = Obito fans are pushing that Tobi really is just Obito, perhaps modified and even brainwashed, but ultimately his own person.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

Descent of the Lion said:


> You don't know any of this.
> 
> 
> Here are some  facts. Nagato was never seen receiving the eyes, and would have more than likely remembered a dude in a mask giving them to him. It's also implied that he didn't have it activated before he and his parents were attacked. if Madara already activated them then Nagato wouldn't have to.



Nagato didn't need to say 'hey guys guess what some masked guy popped Rinnegans in my head and I killed these people, what 2 do?' 

Seriously, Izuna being an Uchiha and a powerful one at that. More than likely gave Nagato the Rinnegan before Jiriaya trained the orphans. But only unlocked the Rinnegan in a state of life or death. More than likely the Rinnegan probably resetted back to a normal eye before even the sharingan. After all, Madara's eyes weren't in there Rinnegan form when Madara was revived but in the sharingan state. Madara being an Uchiha, he has control of thus his eye wasn't simply in a regular state but sharingan. Not to mention, that he activated them in sequences like sharingan, EMS, when he was in a stated of near defeat (reawakened the Rinnegan). 

This can explain Kakashi and Tobi's eyes. Kakashi isn't an Uchiha and so the sharingan is in it's base state given it was just given to Kakashi on the spot. The Rinnegan in theory can only keep it's state if given to an Uchiha who has a high level of skill or compatibility with it. And the Rinnegan being Izuna's original eyes, make him more than compatibile and gives him high tolerance for it. Plus having one sharingan and one Rinnegan, one from Madara's surgery sharingan and the other that is Madara's or Izuna's original eye.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jul 19, 2012)

GunX2 said:


> Tobi knew Madara.....how can he be Obito?



No one knows when Madara died or how Madara died, and we didn't even know he was dead until recently.


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

If you're man enough to take up the challenge still let me know in here even it seems like a challenger has already entered the arena. Just in case some people don't reply or whatever

and if anyone thinks about not paying just remember I have yakuza connections


----------



## $Kakashi$ (Jul 19, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> No.
> 
> There is absolutely zero evidence that points to Tobi having a grudge of some kind against Kakashi.
> 
> ...



This. Very well said.


----------



## egressmadara (Jul 19, 2012)

Well, 1 for one have never heard of such a theory, nor do I intend to consider it XD.


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

Naruto and time travel? I think I'm gonna throw up. The only logical identity for Tobi at this point is Obito. Fuck you, haters.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Naruto and time travel? I think I'm gonna throw up. The only logical identity for Tobi at this point is Obito. Fuck you, haters.



Shall we continue our convo here on Obito vs Izuna being Tobi OU?...

or shall we agree that Tobi is Tarzan


----------



## Bloo (Jul 19, 2012)

Look up what a red herring is, that's what all these clues of Tobi being Obito are.


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

lucid1 said:


> you'll get money even if you don't want it
> 
> do u have paypal brother


I seriously don't want money. I'm just taking the bet. I'm confident in my ability to win. Let's just bet on rep or something, okay? This is a forum. And a forum about a manga at that. or, let's say the loser has to wear a set saying "_______ pwned me". As yu can see in my sig, I already have a bet going with Yuna.


----------



## spankdatbitch (Jul 19, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Is That what this all is??
> 
> A meaningless grudge?




No..because I'm pretty sure that Tobi is just using Obito's body,and has the essence of Madara's soul inside of him or some similar idea.The insult about him having regrets was likley just psychological warfare.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

I gotta sub this thread  

this'll be good haha


----------



## spankdatbitch (Jul 19, 2012)

lucid1 said:


> So I guess like 80% of people here seem convinced that Tobi is Obito thanks to some dialogue between Tobi, Kakashi and Gai in the latest chapter. Well, I think the theory is pretty retarded and too full of inconsistencies to ever have any reasonable chance of being true.
> 
> Which one of you Tobito champions is willing to step up to the plate and put your money where your mouth is? Ya'll bin talking mad shit yo, time to back dat shit up like real men
> 
> ...





Too bad I don't have any money or a job at the moment.
Someones about to make an easy 100$ off you brah


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

Obviously Tobi is Obito. At this point, anyone who doesn't think that is just either stupid or in denial.


----------



## lathia (Jul 19, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Look up what a red herring is, that's what all these clues of Tobi being Obito are.



​


----------



## Golden Circle (Jul 19, 2012)

That's great, I could use the cash.

[sp][/sp]


----------



## Brian (Jul 19, 2012)

guess he will always be the crybaby ninja


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I seriously don't want money. I'm just taking the bet. I'm confident in my ability to win. Let's just bet on rep or something, okay? This is a forum. And a forum about a manga at that. or, let's say the loser has to wear a set saying "_______ pwned me". As yu can see in my sig, I already have a bet going with Yuna.



Well if you already have one of those kinds of bets going then I guess you don't need one with me. Sorry but offer rejected. The stakes can be negotiated but they still have to be high enough to make it interesting. Sig bets are for wimps!


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

^RD, 
 wht the hell


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

lucid1 said:


> Well if you already have one of those kinds of bets going then I guess you don't need one with me. Sorry but offer rejected. The stakes can be negotiated but they still have to be high enough to make it interesting. Sig bets are for wimps!


Okay, then. Just know that whoever you bet with is going to win.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 19, 2012)

Let me explain why Tobi = Obito; *Because there are no other options.
*
First tackle that. Come up with a candidate for Tobi's identity that the fans would actually think is shocking and interesting.

*You can come up with all the "plotholes" in the world for why Tobi can't be Obito, but if you cannot come up with a good alternative, well...then you're leaving a hole 100x bigger than what we're leaving.*



			
				Jacamo said:
			
		

> Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504)
> There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.



Obito was likely implanted with Madara's memories, which is *why he talks as if though he is him*. He has all of Madara's experience and knowledge and proficiency with Mangekyou. 

He is also a body that's made almostly entirely of Zetsu goo, so obviously he has Senju influence that could help somehow.



> Plothole Number 2: Personality U-turn (chapter 241 page 19)
> "Of course those in the ninja world who break the rules and regulations are called trash... but those who don’t care about their companions are even worse than trash." Will of Fire talk from Obito. It makes no sense for him to suddenly manifest this unwavering vendetta against Konoha unless Tobi is just using Obito’s body as a vessel, in which case, Tobi isn’t really Obito anyway because his soul and spirit have nothing to do with it.



Hold on, let me think...Oh, I know! 

It's not Obito's fucking personality??? I thought that was obvious.



> Plothole Number 3: Kushina Quote (chapter 501 page 7)
> "Do you have ANY idea how long I’ve waited for this moment?" It’s a complete contradiction for Obito to say something like that when, hypothetically, he wouldn’t have been alive long enough to make that type of comment because Obito would have been 15 years old if he fought Minato. Tobi has probably had to wait DECADES for the opportunity to extract the Kyuubi from its host.



It had been a while since_ Madara_ controlled the Kyuubi.



> Plothole Number 4: Kyuubi recognised Tobi (chapter 501 page 8)
> The Kyuubi actually recognises Tobi and possibly knows who he is. If THAT doesn’t convince you, nothing will. The Kyuubi made a direct transfer from being sealed into Mito to being sealed into Kushina, so there is a fundamental contradiction for the Kyuubi to recognise anyone in the outside world when it was sealed for all that time. If the Kyuubi actually recognised Tobi, it means Tobi has to be someone who was alive during Hashirama/Madara’s generation.



That's _Madara_ he recognized.



> Plothole Number 5: Tobi is too tall (chapter 503 page 9)
> Tobi was shown to be adult sized when he fought Minato, chapter 503 page 5. But on page 9, Kakashi, Gai, Asuma and Kurenai are all shown to be much shorter as they are going through adolescence. Obito would have been around that size and is therefore too short to be Tobi.



When healed by Zetsu and infused with Madara's likeness/memories, he grew?



> Plothole Number 6: Minato would’ve figured it out (chapter 500-504)
> If Tobi was really Obito, then Minato would have figured it out when they were fighting each other. Obito was Minato’s own student and would have recognised his chakra, but he didn’t.



No, he wouldn't. He wouldn't figure his opponent is his dead student who is taller, evil, and 10x stronger than he remembered him.

Minato cannot sense chakra, either.



> Plothole Number 7: This is HIS doing (chapter 560 page 2)
> "This is HIS doing." That means Madara knows exactly who Tobi is, but there is no way Madara could have worked with Obito because Madara had died already. We know this because by the time Nagato gets Madara's Rinnegan from Tobi, Madara is officially dead - "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death." (chapter 560 page 15). This is important because Nagato is older than Minato, and Minato is older than Obito.



1. I believe that's a mistranslation

2. All it means (in the potential case it's not a mistrans), is that he knows whatever happened is *his successor's doing*.


> Plothole Number 8: Hashirama Comparison (chapter 462 page 14)
> Tobi says to Naruto "I can see the first Hokage in you." To make that type of comparison Tobi must have known what Hashirama was like as a person. Problem is, Hashirama was dead before Obito was born.



Tobi thinks he's Madara.


> Plothole Number 9: During Our Battle (chapter 512 page 9)
> "This is something I grew from living tissue I stole from him during our battle." Kabuto already revealed the Madara coffin so there was no reason for Tobi to keep lying. So if Tobi actually had a fight with Hashirama there is no way he could be Obito.



Tobi thinks he's Madara.


> Plothole Number 10: Too Much Knowledge
> It is impossible for Obito to know so much about the bloody history between the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan before Konoha was even established as a shinobi village. Tobi has to be someone from that generation. It is also impossible for Obito to know so much about Rikudou Sennin, his sons, the Bijuu and the Juubi.



He has Madara's knowledge.



> Plothole Number 11: Nagato is much older than Obito
> 
> Why is this important? Because Tobi GAVE Nagato the Rinnegan. In other words, it is impossible for Obito to have given kid Nagato the Rinnegan because Obito is much younger than Nagato.



.......................................................wow

Tobi talks to people under the assumption that he is Madara:

-He calls Izuna his brother. Isn't Izuna Madara's brother?
-He says as he fought Hashirama, his name became more well-known. Isn't he talking about Madara?
-He says he was the leader of Uchiha. Wasn't that Madara?
-He says he controlled the Kyuubi and fought Hashirama. Wasn't that Madara?

He didn't tell Konan "Madara gave him Rinnegan," because that would fucking _reveal to her that he's not Madara_. It's the same reason why told Sasuke all the shit above from his point of view, _when it was all Madara's point of view_...

It's not the biggest plothole you listed. It might be one of the _worst_ you listed.

Really, you spend all sorts of time thinking of "plotholes," and you don't even know the theory in the first place. *Why bother with some big message claiming to "debunk" the Tobito theory when you don't address any of it? *


----------



## Raiden (Jul 19, 2012)

1. Crushed by a rock.
2. Sensei dies.
3. Girl who is also teammate dies.
4. Feels distant from Konoha.
5. Sees death and war.

Those are four reasonable basis to become misguided...especially if you're a teen without a mentor. Iruka rescued Naruto from his gloom and doom.

EDIT: It only works in certain conditions though. I think it comes down to company. If someone is alone or around the wrong people, they are far more likely to develop a distorted view. In Obito's case, it actually appears as if he grew sick of what he saw around him and only believes in a hard line way of changing it. I'm just trying to fit the pieces together; it's not my manga .


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

yes they're going to win the privilege of making me a very rich man. im going to buy so much ikea stock after i win i'll practically be swimming in swedishfurniture

ck


----------



## spankdatbitch (Jul 19, 2012)

lucid1 said:


> yes they're going to win the privilege of making me a very very rich man



You think 100 dollars is rich?
Do you live in a third world country,or are you just 12 yrs old?
Not that it matters,the only one that will part with 100 dollars is you.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

spankdatbitch said:


> You think 100 dollars is rich?
> Do you live in a third world country,or are you just 12 yrs old?
> Not that it matters,the only one that will part with 100 dollars is you.



wasn't the OP tryin to get multiple bets goin. If so then,  

he'll practically have a paycheck comin his way if he wins


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

Raiden said:


> 1. Crushed by a rock.
> 2. Sensei dies.
> 3. Girl who is also teammate dies.
> 4. Feels distant from Konoha.
> ...



Everyone in this manga has a dark side. Konohamaru's grandfather and dad both died. It's only a matter of time


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> wasn't the OP tryin to get multiple bets goin. If so then,
> 
> he'll practically have a paycheck comin his way if he wins



no no no not multiple $100 bets. maybe multiple smaller ones that in total amount to somwhere around $100. like I said up for discussion. 

I mean it could be the case that there's simply no-one out there dumb enough to believe in tobito who's actually capable of having 100 dollars to their name


----------



## NW (Jul 19, 2012)

This is just ridiculous. It should be obvious by now that Tobi is Obito. Anyone who thinks otherwise is truly ignorant. 

Only Obito can complete the story. He's the missing link. Whether or not any of you guys get that entirely depends on your ability to comprehend the manga you're reading. You can say I'm wrong all you want, but I'm not. 

This is Kishi's writing style. This is how the manga is written. It's amazing to me that people don't get this. I'm not going to explain yet again why it makes so much sense for it to be Obito.

I'll rather take amusement when Tobi is revealed to be Obito and none of you can comprehend WHY it's Obito. 

All of the other theories are bullshit. They completely get away from the original point. You guys need to realize the symbolism of all this. Obito was a very important Uchiha. It's hard to understand why people don't understand this.

Whatever. When it does turn out to be Obito, I will laugh my ass off at people's reactions and why they're unable to comprehend it. I bet those people will quit the manga before the backstory is even given.

Does anyone even comprehend how much drama Tobi being a student of Naruto's father will hold? Apparently not.

This is my last post on this thread until Tobi's identity is revealed. 

I KNOW it is Obito and cannot wait to laugh at everyone who said it didn't make sense. It doesn't make sense to you because you don't let it. Now, all that's left is to wait for the inevitable.

I know it seems like a turnaround for me to call everyone who is against the Tobito theory idiots while i was accusing T-Bag of insulting people, but I don't generally mean exactly everyone against the Tobito theory, as some people just aren't aware of certain themes and haven't really payed enough attention.

But for people who have evidence presented in front of them, and still deny it, they're just foolish. 

Obito was Minato's student. Minato was the FATHER of NARUTO. That holds a great amount of relevance for the final villain.

Tobi's identity HAS to have an emotional effect on the readers and on the characters in the manga. Otherwise, there's no point.

Tobi has to be relevant to someone. Someone important. 

Not Izuna or Kagami or some shit. It doesn't fit. Their character just doesn't slide into place as Tobi.

Tobi doesn't even LOOK like Izuna, so it's not him. We have to recognize the face behind the mask, don't we? And Kagami has only appeared in one chapter and in two panels to boot. 

You guys just don't get storytelling, nor have you payed any good attention to how Kishimoto writes.

If you don't understand the emotional impact Tobi being Obito even has on the plot and how it completes the story, then wow. Just... wow.

Remember, Kishimoto puts meaning into his manga. He puts themes into it. If you can't realize this then I don't know what manga you are reading.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 19, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Everyone in this manga has a dark side. Konohamaru's grandfather and dad both died. It's only a matter of time



Dude. SaruTOBI Konohamaru!


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 19, 2012)

lucid1 said:


> So I guess like 80% of people here seem convinced that Tobi is Obito thanks to some dialogue between Tobi, Kakashi and Gai in the latest chapter. Well, I think the theory is pretty retarded and too full of inconsistencies to ever have any reasonable chance of being true.
> 
> Which one of you Tobito champions is willing to step up to the plate and put your money where your mouth is? Ya'll bin talking mad shit yo, time to back dat shit up like real men
> 
> ...




I've honestly been considering doing this exact same thing for the last couple days. I was hoping for a "delete your account on NF forever" option to the bet, though, so I didn't have to listen to those crackpots whine after they find out it's not Obito.

+reps


----------



## Leuconoe (Jul 19, 2012)

Um, oh my! That's certainly an interesting theory, OP! A little fanfiction, but cool nonetheless!


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 19, 2012)

spankdatbitch said:


> You think 100 dollars is rich?
> Do you live in a third world country,or are you just 12 yrs old?



There's literally _thousands_ of Obitards here on NF that swear that Tobi = Obito and won't listen to any logic. 

1000 x 100 = not poor.

Just seems like all the Obitards don't have the balls, confidence or the money for the bet.


----------



## 3rdgenkage (Jul 19, 2012)

Obito should have never saved Rin


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 19, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Is That what this all is??
> 
> A meaningless grudge?



If Tobi had a grudge against Kakashi, he could've killed him a few times now. Instead, however, he has just dismissed Kakashi as irrelevant the entire time.

You certainly wouldn't treat someone you hold a grudge over as irrelevant.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Dude. SaruTOBI Konohamaru!



This one never gets old


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 19, 2012)

ouch well said. truth hurts. honestly i think money is the biggest issue for them. most just can't hold down a job


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 19, 2012)

For all the people that say "Madara helped him." "Zetsu helped him" etc...

Why? Why did he help him? What's in it for Madara? What's in it for Zetsu?

Were they lonely? Did they need the company of a dead Uchiha when there was still a clan full of live ones?

Enlighten me.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> This is just ridiculous. It should be obvious by now that Tobi is Obito. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot. Only Obito can complete the story. He's the missing link. Whether or not any of you guys get that entirely depends on your level of intelligence. You can say I'm wrong all you want, but I'm not. This is Kishi's writing style. This is how the manga is written. It's amazing to me that people don't get this. I'm not going to explain yet again why it makes so much sense for it to be Obito.
> 
> I'll rather take amusement when Tobi is revealed to be Obito and none of you can comprehend WHY it's Obito.
> 
> ...



you pointed fingers at tbag when he made insults. It would appear to be a scenario of the pot calling the kettle black


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

better than Obito not being able to hold up a rock


----------



## Summers (Jul 19, 2012)

That would be, assuming its Obito, that would be................................


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 19, 2012)

The part that's bothering me is all the "Well, maybe..." in response to logical questions.

Immediately after the "Well, maybe..." will usually be 3 paragraphs of fanfic with nothing to back it up. The confidence they have in the things they make up themselves is what bothers me about the entire theory. 

If Obito was able to get out from under the rock, he wouldn't have told them to take his eye and leave. He would've gone with them.

If his other eye still worked and wasn't crushed (even though he was trapped), he'd have given Kakashi both eyes, not just one. He knew the potential power that the second eye held, just like Shisui did.

Add that to the list of plot holes if Tobi = Obito. I think we're up to like 20 massive ones at this point.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2012)

Summers said:


> That would be, assuming its Obito, that would be................................



.... as bad as that movie where the 2 brothers were trying to make sure they kept the house and no one bought it. So they bought costumes when people came to visit and had the kkk as their next door neighbors and a nazi living across the street


----------



## posternojutsu (Jul 19, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> For all the people that say "Madara helped him." "Zetsu helped him" etc...
> 
> Why? Why did he help him? What's in it for Madara? What's in it for Zetsu?
> 
> ...



Maybe they had a good reason to suspect he would have a very broken MS technique ..that could come in handy? Who knows to be honest. If Kishi goes this route he will pull something out of his ass to explain it. Regardless of who Tobi turns out to be a lot of people are going to be butt hurt over it....so the forums should be an interesting place once that reveal happens.


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 19, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Drivel



Cool fanfic, bro.

You realise that *anybody* being Tobi works equally under your premises, right? Kagami, Izuna, shit... anyone could be Tobi with your explanation. In fact, we see Obito die, so he's even LESS likely than the Ramen guy... who again, could easily fit your scenario.

Explain that.


----------



## 4ghost (Jul 19, 2012)

I believe we will soon learn that the story behind Tobi's identity is similar in some ways to Sasuke.  My theory is that Tobi is Obito's brother, consumed by sorrow and hate toward the Shinobi world that took his brother. I also think that he is responsible for Rin's death. Killing her to satiate his desire for revenge, but ironically regretting that he trampled over that which his brother sacrificed his life for.    

I think his desire for vengeance is what led him astray from Konoha and into Madara's sights. I also think that we will find out that it is one of Madara's MS jutsu that allowed Madara to implant his will and some knowledge into Tobi, thus creating his temporary successor.     

Madara apparently had an ability very similar to Shisui's Koto Amatsukami. I think the reveal of Tobi's face and past is going to coincide with Madara's escaping death at VOTE.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jul 19, 2012)

When has time ever been an issue in this manga? With all the ways to speed up training or simply impart knowledge on somebody....time is irrelevant.



Anonymouse said:


> For all the people that say "Madara helped him." "Zetsu helped him" etc...
> 
> Why? Why did he help him? What's in it for Madara? What's in it for Zetsu?
> 
> ...



I guess we'll find out when Kishi gives us the inevitable Tobi flashback.

For everybody looking for Tobi's identity to make sense - where have you been for the last 13 years?

This is Naruto, it doesn't have to make sense.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 19, 2012)

The power levels of Naruto, Sasuke, and Kabuto increased in such short periods of time (probably just a couple of months) and in different fashions. Since we now know that such advancements in strength are not impossible, there's no harm in acknowledging the possibility that Obito experienced a similar upgrade in a manner still unknown to us.

It's unreasonable to assume that our concept of time can determine how realistic fictional development is. There's no telling whether a certain amount of time is short or long enough for a shounen character, especially a Naruto character, to experience some degree of development. 

Also, the Tobito theory doesn't and shouldn't necessarily assume that Obito survived on his own and is in control of his body (Tobi). He could be under some spell, another person's control, or some extreme brainwashing. Or perhaps he is suffering from a personality disorder stemming from war trauma and Rin's death. 

His body was crushed, so it probably needed a great deal of reconstruction. Perhaps the result was a larger body frame. 

The theory remains standing.



♠Ace♠ said:


> This is my main gripe with the theory.
> 
> The Kyuubi recognized Tobi on the spot the moment he was extracted from  Kushina. The panels indicated he knew so due to the sharingan, given the  fact that it was emphasized greatly. The problem with assuming he is  Obito is that the Kyuubi was sealed the entirety of Obito's lifetime and  Obito's sharingan was never seen by anyone but Kakashi and Rin. The  combination of those two factors makes it impossible for the Kyuubi to  be able to recognize Obito's sharingan.
> 
> The idea that the Kyuubi would have such a reaction to Tobi, even though  he's never seen Obito's sharingan seems farfetched to me.



Did Kurama recognize Tobi as someone in particular, or as someone who could use the same Sharingan genjutsu Madara enslaved him with? 



> Tobi has a gigantic obsession with Hashirama, he's stated he was Madara  even on Konan's deathbed. He has a contract seal with the Kyuubi as well  as the ability to summon it, something only Madara had the ability to  do. He was seen standing on top of Madara's statue as if reminiscing on  the past.
> 
> Tobi has a very personal connection to Madara given the gigantic hints Kishi threw in our faces. In fact, *the connections to Madara far outweigh the connections to Obito*.



In a way, this tends to support the possibility that Obito is Madara's subordinate, a pawn so loyal or brainwashed he became infested with Madara's ideals and obsessions.


----------



## Moon Fang (Jul 19, 2012)

At this rate some of you are gonna end up in mental facilities tryna figure out who this fucker is


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 19, 2012)

posternojutsu said:


> "Maybe they had a good reason to suspect he would have a very broken MS technique"




How could they have known. Obito didn't even unlock the sharingan until Rin was kidnapped, which was right before a rock crushed his head.



Kakashi didn't even know what the eye could do until he was close to 30, and for fucks sake, he was using the thing. You'd think he would know better than anyone.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 19, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> Cool fanfic, bro.
> 
> You realise that *anybody* being Tobi works equally under your premises, right? Kagami, Izuna, shit... anyone could be Tobi with your explanation. In fact, we see Obito die, so he's even LESS likely than the Ramen guy... who again, could easily fit your scenario.
> 
> Explain that.



Yeah, they all work, except the only option that the fans would give 2 shits about is Obito.

I know Tobi is not Kagami because no one knows or cares who that dude is. I know Tobi is not Izuna because his name has never been revealed in the manga, and his face only shown a handful of times. _The fans would not recognize Izuna or Kagami's face, and neither would the characters present at the unveiling._

The entire reason the Tobito theory exists is to apply some meaning to Tobi's identity. My above post is nothing but rationalizations that could apply to many characters; I'm well aware.

*The most important thing about Tobi's identity is that it's shocking and fulfilling to the millions of fans who have waited close to 7 years to find out who he is.*

If he's not Obito, then who is he? Who else can fit the criteria?


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 19, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> The power levels of Naruto, Sasuke, and Kabuto increased in such short periods of time (probably just a couple of months) and in different fashions. Since we now know that such advancements in strength are not impossible, there's no harm in acknowledging the possibility that Obito experienced a similar upgrade in a manner still unknown to us.
> 
> It's unreasonable to assume that our concept of time can determine how realistic fictional development is. There's no telling whether a certain amount of time is short or long enough for a shounen character, especially a Naruto character, to experience some degree of development.
> 
> ...



Naruto had nearly endless chakra from a Bijuu and used Kage Bunshin to learn at unheardof speeds.

Sasuke got a cursed seal filled with sage chakra, then he got his brothers eyes.

It took Kabuto years of research to gain the abilities he did. He didn't get them over night.

No one can explain why Madara/Zetsu (who clearly wanted to destroy Konoha) would go to the border of the grass country to get a dead child, let alone why they would pick him to power-level.


----------



## BringerOfCarnage (Jul 19, 2012)

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Obito know all about Hiraishin?


TH4N4T0S said:


> The power levels of Naruto, Sasuke, and Kabuto increased in such short periods of time (probably just a couple of months) and in different fashions. Since we now know that such advancements in strength are not impossible, there's no harm in acknowledging the possibility that Obito experienced a similar upgrade in a manner still unknown to us.
> 
> It's unreasonable to assume that our concept of time can determine how realistic fictional development is. There's no telling whether a certain amount of time is short or long enough for a shounen character, especially a Naruto character, to experience some degree of development.
> 
> ...



Why would *anyone* (I'm assuming it was Madara) want to help someone as pathetic as Obito (a dying Obito nonetheless)? There are hundreds of other better candidates for the mind-controlling...


----------



## joshhookway (Jul 19, 2012)

Kishi can mess with times.

Remember those fodder using flying thunder god were said to be Minato's guards.


----------



## BringerOfCarnage (Jul 19, 2012)

Tobi, even if he tries his hardest and reads up on the technique, would not be capable of bringing himself to giving a single fuck about Rin


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 19, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> Naruto had nearly endless chakra from a Bijuu and used Kage Bunshin to learn at unheardof speeds.
> 
> Sasuke got a cursed seal filled with sage chakra, then he got his brothers eyes.
> 
> It took Kabuto years of research to gain the abilities he did. He didn't get them over night.



To be exact, it took Kabuto years of research to understand how to steal the abilities of others, not how to master them on his own. Once he did, everything else happened overnight. 

Danzo didn't do the research himself, but he gained the abilities of the Uchiha and the Senjuu (which are a huge upgrade despite being imperfect) just by having himself operated on by someone else.

The point is clear: There are many possible means by which ninjas can gain huge amounts of strength in short amounts of time. 



BringerOfCarnage said:


> Why would *anyone* (I'm assuming  it was Madara) want to help someone as pathetic as Obito (a dying Obito  nonetheless)? There are hundreds of other better candidates for the  mind-controlling...



That's what we'll have to find out.


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 19, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Yeah, they all work, except the only option that the fans would give 2 shits about is Obito.
> 
> *The most important thing about Tobi's identity is that it's shocking and fulfilling to the millions of fans who have waited over 6 years to find out who he is.*
> 
> If he's not Obito, then who is he? Who else can fit the criteria?




Thanks for telling the millions of people what they would or wouldn't like. Did you cast Mugen Tsukuyomi on all the Naruto readers or something?

You think the average reader will remember a side-character's(Kakashi) side stories(Kakashi Gaiden) side-character (Obito) from more than 350(and counting) issues prior? Get real. It's only the internet forum fanboys who do (myself, included.)

The ONLY and I mean ONLY thing giving the Tobito theory any credence, at this point in time, over any other member of the Narutoverse is the fact that Kishi chose to do the Kakashi gaiden directly in between parts 1 and 2, and if he wanted to setup a new supervillian, that would be an opportune time to work one in discreetly. That's it.

Even then, if Kishi made Tobi = Obito = FV, then he may as well rename the manga Kakashi, since Obito is infinitely more relevant to Kakashi.

You can infer things that aren't there all day long, because the transparent Tobito fanboyism is glaringly obvious. _You_ will never see some other character fitting the criteria (being a fulfilling character), because you're so invested in this theory being right to validate your point of view.

As far as who it could be, it could literally be anybody. Prior to issue 398 Danzo was mentioned exactly 1 time. When the Danzo v Sasuke arc started, we had almost zero information on who Danzo was, or what he did. Danzo has turned out to be the single most evil and manipulative one in the manga thus far. 

When Naruto met Kushina, it came as a complete shock to the readers and I can't think of a more highly rated issue among the fans, even if partly a tear-jerker. At that time, we knew almost nothing about Kushina, but immediately cared about her as a character.

Off the top of my head, Kishi could make Tobi the last surviving member of the Wave village. He could write it to make sense to us, the readers, in an enjoyable way simply because Kishi's a good writer. Otherwise, why the hell did you waste your time with nearly 600 issues?


----------



## Golden Circle (Jul 19, 2012)

momo313 said:


> You fools over complicate a manga written for 14 yr olds.
> 
> TOBI = TOBI.
> 
> END OF STORY.


FTFY.**


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 19, 2012)

BringerOfCarnage said:


> Why would *anyone* (I'm assuming it was Madara) want to help someone as pathetic as Obito (a dying Obito nonetheless)? There are hundreds of other better candidates for the mind-controlling...



No village wants the secret of their kekkei genkai to be discovered. That's why hunter-nins exist to confiscate corpses.

Zetsu could very well have been a creation of Madara's, who was given the task of finding a suitable Uchiha host body for Madara's successor (Tobi) to inhabit after Madara himself died and could no longer achieve his plans.

Zetsu would have a hard time finding an Uchiha body, because Konoha would never leave corpses with Kekkei Genkai lying around for their enemies to study. 

Obito's body was alone long enough for Zetsu to steal it and leave a clone in its place. He needed to repair him with his own abilities (Senju goo), and the man would end up only having one strong Sharingan (right eye), but it would do the trick...


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Jul 19, 2012)

Velocity said:


> Normally I don't actually give a damn about this sort of thing, but a lot of people are up in arms about this particular theory - whether they're bullishly supporting it or determined to ignore it. Yet there is one major flaw in the entire Tobito theory and it lies within "time".
> 
> Tobi attacked Konohagakure less than a year after Obito died. Kakashi was 14 when Obito died, correct? Tobi attacked Konohagakure on the day Naruto was born, 16 years ago. Kakashi is 29-30, therefore making him around 14 the day the Nine Tails attacked. Ergo, less than a year passed between the Kakashi Gaiden arc and the time Tobi attacked Konohagakure.
> 
> ...


Also that little kid couldn't gain the amount of knowledge of the ninja world and the inner workings of the leaf a few years after his death. He also just gained his sharringan lol. LOL at obito knowing top secret info on karama being sealed in naruto's mom. *Lets just ignore these obito threads every time they show up please!!*



It has to be somebody older than them who once oversaw the both of them. I'm still going with *shisui*. He knew way too much about itachi, the village, orochimaru, the higher ups in the village etc etc. The whole bloody mist era thing adds up with his ability to control people.

Or more than likely it could be danzo's team mate* kagami uchiha*. It would make sense that he knows so much and about all the top secret stuff going on in the leaf. He also seemed like he knew danzo and orochimaru. You be the judge.

*Spoiler*: __ 




.......................................................


----------



## Namikaze Minato Flash (Jul 19, 2012)

[1]
^Plus why would Obito turn out old with wrinkles when he and Kakashi are around the same age? Image-wise, it doesn't make sense either...


----------



## MS81 (Jul 19, 2012)

Kishi said it will be someone we know, but don't know...


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 19, 2012)

HAY GUISE I KNOW WHO TOBI IS!!!!!


*Spoiler*: __ 



He has black hair.




*Spoiler*: __ 



He has a mask.




*Spoiler*: __ 



He has ties to Danzo.




*Spoiler*: __ 



He wasn't crushed by a rock to the face






^^^This is how every Tobito thread looks to me...


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 19, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> He wasn't crushed by a rock to the face



[Citation needed]


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 19, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> tobi is a fucking old man. he called kakashi and konan fucking children...........
> 
> does calling someone your age, or older than you (konan) a "child" make any sense? hell no. tobi worked with madara when nagato was kid, and told kushina he's waited a very long time to attack konoha. he cant POSSIBLY be obito
> 
> people use some common sense, seriously



Indeed. As if Tobi weren't under the guise of Madara in all the instances you provided. Of course, a person (Obito) trying hard to masquerade as a 90-year-old wouldn't recognize that 30-year-olds are young enough to be his grandchildren and would never consider it effective to call them children. Seriously... The point you're making here doesn't help your cause. 



Namikaze Minato Flash said:


> [1]
> ^Plus why would Obito turn out old with wrinkles when he and Kakashi are  around the same age? Image-wise, it doesn't make sense  either...



Is it a fact that he is old? Those marks on his face don't prove that  he's old. They may simply be scars or a facial feature caused by his  injuries and surgeries. If Kishimoto wanted to make him look old, he  simply could have put a wrinkle or two directly beside or under the eye.


----------



## OneHitKill (Jul 19, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BydYgfCmekQ[/YOUTUBE]


EDIT: He had a growing summer :sanji


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 19, 2012)

Anonymouse said:
			
		

> Thanks for telling the millions of people what they would or wouldn't like. Did you cast Mugen Tsukuyomi on all the Naruto readers or something?



It's common sense. Really.



> You think the average reader will remember a side-character's(Kakashi) side stories(Kakashi Gaiden) side-character (Obito) from more than 350(and counting) issues prior? Get real. It's only the internet forum fanboys who do (myself, included.)



People will definitely remember Obito. And if they can't recognize him right away, Kakashi will do the rest for them.



> The ONLY and I mean ONLY thing giving the Tobito theory any credence, at this point in time, over any other member of the Narutoverse is the fact that Kishi chose to do the Kakashi gaiden directly in between parts 1 and 2, and if he wanted to setup a new supervillian, that would be an opportune time to work one in discreetly. That's it.



I think the:
-similar S/T jutsu to Kakashi
-complete mystery surrounding Tobi's jutsu, including the MS itself
-complete mystery surrounding Kakashi's MS and Rin
-10x better plot relevance
-similarities between the names "Tobi" and "Obito"

also lend more credence to the theory versus the other top contenders: "Tobi is Uchiha no-one-knows-or-cares-#34" and "Tobi is Uchiha no-one-remembers-or-would-recognize-#408."



> Even then, if Kishi made Tobi = Obito = FV, then he may as well rename the manga Kakashi, since Obito is infinitely more relevant to Kakashi.



If Kishi made Tobi Kagami, he might as well go turn himself in now, because the fans would feel raped if the biggest mystery in the series unveiled turned out to be a character 95% of them would be unable to recognize the face or name of.

It would be a much bigger burden for Kishimoto to have it be anyone else. He risks losing a lot by shitting on his readers with a no-name than he would with Obito, which has...a few plot holes? Big deal.



> You can infer things that aren't there all day long, because the transparent Tobito fanboyism is glaringly obvious. You will never see some other character fitting the criteria (being a fulfilling character), because you're so invested in this theory being right to validate your point of view.



That's pure horseshit.

Please, lie to me, and tell me that _*you*_ think it would be fulfilling for _*you*_, if what is one of the biggest mysteries in shounen manga history, turned out to be a character most people don't even know.



> As far as who it could be, it could literally be anybody. Prior to issue 398 Danzo was mentioned exactly 1 time. When the Danzo v Sasuke arc started, we had almost zero information on who Danzo was, or what he did. Danzo has turned out to be the single most evil and manipulative one in the manga thus far.
> 
> When Naruto met Kushina, it came as a complete shock to the readers and I can't think of a more highly rated issue among the fans, even if partly a tear-jerker. At that time, we knew almost nothing about Kushina, but immediately cared about her as a character.



All characters start out un-important, and their relevance is something the author can create out of thin air, if need be.

But a masked character, whose identity we are teased of over the course of 7 years, cannot be a new character.

*Because then he would have never worn a mask in the first place.* We wouldn't have been teased of his identity if it didn't mean anything.



> Off the top of my head, Kishi could make Tobi the last surviving member of the Wave village. He could write it to make sense to us, the readers, in an enjoyable way simply because Kishi's a good writer. Otherwise, why the hell did you waste your time with nearly 600 issues?



...you really think he would do that?

And you think that is a better or equally good option as him making it Obito, which would require only a handful of rationalizations, yet be 100x more shocking and fulfilling?

Think about it; The reason you're opposed to this theory is because you don't like the plot holes. Get over that shit and start thinking about what is important.


----------



## The Fool (Jul 19, 2012)

I'm actually beginning to believe it is Tobirama, for several reasons.

A: He invented Edo Tensei, so if anybody could fake an impure resurrection it is him. Besides, the latest chapters have changed what we actually know about ET. It is very possible that a shinobi can be permanently resurrected, even if sealed. We just saw that with Orochimaru. The time-line somewhat matches up also.  Edit: before you ask why didn't Tobi know the mechanics of ET, keep in mind that Kabuto's version may be quite different. If he's an ET, he might actually want to know the mechanics of cancelling the jutsu as well. I know it is not a perfect theory, but it seems more plausible than Obito suddenly showing up 1 year after his death and being able to challenge Minato and having intimate knowledge of how to summon the Kyuubi. 

Another note: Danzou is a Tobirama disciple and he seems to have taken to farming sharingan, just like Orochimaru -- who also has major connection to Danzou. Whoever Tobi might be, he is much better at it than Danzou or Orchimaru, i.e. he has had much more experience and more importantly time to gather the necessary eyes.

Edit: another note.... we know Danzou ordered the killing of the Uchiha, but we do not know who ordered the massacre of the Uzumaki clan. We do however know that Tobirama was well aware of the Uzumaki clan since his brother was married to an Uzumaki. Who else was in a better position to have knowledge of both clans other than Tobirama? Again, it seems to me Danzou as Tobirama disciple would be following in the footsteps of Tobirama, perhaps even following direct orders. 

B: He also invented a version time-space jutsu, which Tobi uses as well. We've never really been given any specifics to its mechanics. 

C: Tobirama supposedly died fighting the Kinkaku and Ginkaku. Tobi now is in possession of their weapons and who else would be in a better position to take advantage of those weapons other than Tobirama himself?


----------



## Namikaze Minato Flash (Jul 20, 2012)

^It'd throw things off way more than Tobi being Obito...


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 20, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> tobi is a fucking old man. he called kakashi and konan fucking children...........
> 
> does calling someone your age, or older than you (konan) a "child" make any sense? hell no. tobi worked with madara when nagato was kid, and told kushina he's waited a very long time to attack konoha. he cant POSSIBLY be obito
> 
> people use some common sense, seriously



This theory has been going on for years in spite of the inconsistincies, and I find the defensiveness of people supporting the Tobito theory pretty hilarious. They aren't even acknowledging all the holes in it.



(510)THIZZ said:


> Also that little kid couldn't gain the amount of knowledge of the ninja world and the inner workings of the leaf a few years after his death. He also just gained his sharringan lol. LOL at obito knowing top secret info on karama being sealed in naruto's mom. *Lets just ignore these obito threads every time they show up please!!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kagami certainly would fit within the timeline, as Tobi appears to be older than Nagato whilst Shisui appeared to be very young, and if he is something like Madara's son/protege/whathaveyou, it'd make complete sense that he'd have such extensive knowledge on the doujutsu, biju, and Konoha's history as well. I do find it odd that among Team Tobirama, he's the only member not accounted for. 

Also consider this, every member of Team Tobirama was involved in the Uchiha Massacre one way or another, except Kagami to our knowledge.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Jul 20, 2012)

MS81 said:


> Kishi said it will be someone we know, but don't know...


post a source please.

If that's the case then kagami uchiha seems like a good choice now. We were never informed if he lived or died. He also knows the higher ups and a bunch of secrets about the village. He could have had contact with madara, kakashi, guy, hashirama, and orochimaru. He could have had his own M.S powers and plus he's kinda old.

or 

*Shisui*

Knows itachi too well, and was concerned about taking him out. *check*
Allegedly had a time space warping jutsu("body flicker") *check*
Can control people without them knowing(3rd mizukage) *check*
Wanted to find peace and end all the fighting(moons eye plan)*check*
Most powerful uchiha at the time *check*
Vanished after his plan failed to stop the uchiha coup & sacrificed eyes after leaving his mission in itachi's hands *check *

only thing that doesn't check out is his age. Somebody drop shisui's age please.


----------



## The Fool (Jul 20, 2012)

What I find funny is the hype around Hashirama and Madara, but Tobirama has been described as superior at battle to Hashirama. Tobi has always been described as a shell of his former self, weakened, and incomplete, but even with that he is still capable of toying with the strongest shinobi in the story. Honestly, he makes the most sense, but I'm sure it will end up being Obito somehow.


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 20, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Think about it; The reason you're opposed to this theory is because you don't like the plot holes. Get over that shit and start thinking about what is important.



Again, with telling _me_ how _I_ feel thing...?
You really aren't being objective. I never said I'm opposed to any theory. I simply don't believe the forum hype. Obito makes as much, and as little sense, as any of the others. That's including FrankenZetsu and FutureSasuke and ZombieIzuna and all the other strange fanfiction that gets posted here and labeled "theory".

Deal with this... I simply don't _care_ who Tobi is. 

I'm interested to find out, but it doesn't go any further than that in terms of emotional attachment. He's the bad guy. He's gonna lose. I've already written him off as a reader. At this point, "No one" is good enough for me, because it teaches the main character "Well, shit! Sometimes people are just fuckin' evil for no reason..."
If it turns out to be someone else... anyone else, Obito, Izuna, JuubiIncarnate, Ichiraku'sGrandfather... I'll be _equally_ as entertained. That's the difference between our points of view. So, please don't tell me my opinions in your next reply, like your last two.

Simply put, this same hype was heard about Izuna when Madara said he had a plan to be rezzed. Also about Kagami when his couple of frames were shown in the Danzo stuff.

You're getting trolled right now with two lines of dialogue that, outside of the Tobito bubble, seemed like mockery and arrogance more than anything serious. Kishi certainly isn't going to be giving the big reveal away until chapter 600. That's becoming clear with the shift back to the main even at 595... just 5 chapters away.

If, in the next chapter, Tobi says something glaringly obvious about Kakashi's past, then I'll buy a ticket to the Tobito sideshow that's currently ongoing... Until then... meh.


----------



## Kyrie Eleison (Jul 20, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> If he's not Obito, then who is he? Who else can fit the criteria?



Well, if you want an equally implausible theory, Izuna.

*Spoiler*: __ 




Izuna dies at some point during Madara's lifetime but is revived using Rinne Tensei shortly before Madara's death. As time passes he begins to incorporate more and more tissue from Zetsu to prolong his longevity and maintain his vitality (along with fostering eventual compatibility with the Rinnegan).

I'll borrow some of the plot holes Jacamo listed that would be relevant if it were Izuna.



> Plothole Number 1: Tobi?s Power Level (chapters 500-504)


Izuna was roughly Madara's equal when both of them had the Mangekyo Sharingan. Having Tobi be the second most powerful Uchiha from Madara's era would explain his proficiency with the sharingan and his information on both the Uchiha and Senju clans as well as his knowledge of Hashirama. Since Madara took his eyes he is likely using the eyes of an Uchiha member with a unique trait to them (similar to Shisui's eyes). This might also explain his fetish for collecting extra sharingans or those with useful abilities.



> Plothole Number 5: Tobi is too tall (chapter 503 page 9)


Izuna and Tobi have almost the exact same height (.2 cm difference) and the same weight.



> Plothole Number 7: This is HIS doing (chapter 560 page 2)


Izuna would better explain Madara's familiarity with Tobi since Obito would be far too young to have interacted with either Madara or Nagato. 



> Plothole Number 8: Hashirama Comparison (chapter 462 page 14)Tobi says to Naruto "I can see the first Hokage in you." To make that type of comparison Tobi must have known what Hashirama was like as a person.


 Izuna is from the same era as Hashirama so it's plausible that he's familiar with Hashirama from the numerous conflicts between the Uchiha and Senju of that era. As for the events that happened between his death and revival, Madara or potentially Zetsu could have shown him how the world and the clans had changed (this would also explain his hatred of the Uchiha clan, due to how they betrayed and ostracized his brother).



> Plothole Number 11: Nagato is much older than Obito


Being revived shortly before Madara's death would put Izuna in the right time period to implant Madara's Rinnegan into (Madara's bastard child) Nagato. Who better for Madara to entrust with his Rinnegan than the original owner of those eyes?




That being said I don't think that it's all that plausible for Tobi to be Izuna, but the theory is as equally implausible (on certain levels) as Tobi's identity being revealed to be Obito or somebody new.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Jul 20, 2012)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Kagami certainly would fit within the timeline, as Tobi appears to be older than Nagato whilst Shisui appeared to be very young, and if he is something like Madara's son/protege/whathaveyou, it'd make complete sense that he'd have such extensive knowledge on the doujutsu, biju, and Konoha's history as well. I do find it odd that among Team Tobirama, he's the only member not accounted for.
> 
> Also consider this, every member of Team Tobirama was involved in the Uchiha Massacre one way or another, except Kagami to our knowledge.


Exactly!!! I don't want to sound like those obito nut cases but look at the pics I posted. The eye brows, face, and eye kind of look alike lol I'm just saying. Not making that the Main basis on my theory like the obito crazies.

*But yeah, age, people in the leaf connections, vast knowledge of the ninja world, and being an uchiha all check out. *


----------



## The Fool (Jul 20, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> post a source please.
> 
> If that's the case then kagami uchiha seems like a good choice now. We were never informed if he lived or died. He also knows the higher ups and a bunch of secrets about the village. He could have had contact with madara, kakashi, guy, hashirama, and orochimaru. He could have had his own M.S powers and plus he's kinda old.
> 
> ...




It doesn't really check out since it seems likely that Itachi would recognize his former best friend if Tobi were Shisui.  He would literally have to be in two places at once since the Uchiha massacre and Shisui's death happened at around the same time. Either that, or Itachi is lying.


----------



## Grendel (Jul 20, 2012)

Why is the height even an issue??

Just using myself...grew 4 inches from 13-14 and at 15 was height i am now as an adult...it is called a growth spurt....and kishi sucks at young characters at times as 13 year old itachi looks like he is in late teens or early 20s....


----------



## Missing_Nin (Jul 20, 2012)

obito=tobi

deal w/ it.


----------



## spankdatbitch (Jul 20, 2012)

Velocity said:


> Normally I don't actually give a damn about this sort of thing, but a lot of people are up in arms about this particular theory - whether they're bullishly supporting it or determined to ignore it. Yet there is one major flaw in the entire Tobito theory and it lies within "time".
> 
> Tobi attacked Konohagakure less than a year after Obito died. Kakashi was 14 when Obito died, correct? Tobi attacked Konohagakure on the day Naruto was born, 16 years ago. Kakashi is 29-30, therefore making him around 14 the day the Nine Tails attacked. Ergo, less than a year passed between the Kakashi Gaiden arc and the time Tobi attacked Konohagakure.
> 
> ...



what part of madara is using obito's body don't you understand?
of course he doesn't act like obito because he's possessed by another persona


----------



## vhkakashi020 (Jul 20, 2012)

I am not usually the one to post on these threads. They are super annoying. 

However, to everyone who says this cant be Obito...hes to young, blah blah blah...ever thought his body in the middle of nowhere (uchiha body) got taken OVER by madara?

I dunno, just saying.


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 20, 2012)

Kyrie Eleison said:


> That being said I don't think that it's all that plausible for Tobi to be Izuna, but the theory is as equally implausible (on certain levels) as Tobi's identity being revealed to be Obito or somebody new.



QFT

That's what I'm trying to point out. They *all* have glaring plot holes. Obito is just flavor of the week.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Jul 20, 2012)

The Fool said:


> It doesn't really check out since it seems likely that Itachi would recognize his former best friend if Tobi were Shisui.  He would literally have to be in two places at once since the Uchiha massacre and Shisui's death happened at around the same time. Either that, or Itachi is lying.


I Thought this too but Shisui vanished and itachi made his decision a few days later....... or was it a few weeks/months/years? We really don't know. The manga picks up when itachi is questioned on shisui's whereabouts. From there on it seemed like a good amount of time past before the massacre. More than enough time for his hair to grow and why he hid his face. He could have spied on itachi from the time of his supposed death and learned his plan. Then lured him to seek him out as "madara" knowing this would be a good option for itachi to take. 

Only thing that doesn't check out is his age because I don't know it.

Oh yeah, I thought of your theory too but he's not an uchiha lol. Tobi is clearly an uchiha. I stopped thinking about tobi the moment I saw tobi had two sharringans(konan fight).



vhkakashi020 said:


> I am not usually the one to post on these threads. They are super annoying.
> 
> However, to everyone who says this cant be Obito...hes to young, blah blah blah...*ever thought his body in the middle of nowhere (uchiha body) got taken OVER by madara?*
> I dunno, just saying.



LOL!!! and to think orochimaru thought he came up with this kenjutsu ha ha haaaaa!!!!!!!!!!! madara trolled the shit out of orochimaru. Orochimaru is totally overrated.


----------



## vhkakashi020 (Jul 20, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> I Thought this too but Shisui vanished and itachi made his decision a few days later....... or was it a few weeks/months/years? We really don't know. The manga picks up when itachi is questioned on shisui's whereabouts. From there on it seemed like a good amount of time past before the massacre. More than enough time for his hair to grow and why he hid his face. He could have spied on itachi from the time of his supposed death and learned his plan. Then lured him to seek him out as "madara" knowing this would be a good option for itachi to take.
> 
> Only thing that doesn't check out is his age because I don't know it.
> 
> ...



My thought exactly (Oro part) LOL...anyway, it seems that there are plenty of eye's to go around bro they are like fucking cherries...except you cant pop any of them...or can u?


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Jul 20, 2012)

vhkakashi020 said:


> My thought exactly (Oro part) LOL...anyway, it seems that there are plenty of eye's to go around bro they are like fucking cherries...except you cant pop any of them...or can u?


LOL I fucked that quote and response up. I fixed it now. Those obito fanatics are the craziest fandom on this site. There is no competition.

I'm just mad that my boy ackwell makes threads about lord orochimaru(that actually make sense) and the get sent to the land fields. He even got banned for years for doing this lol. But these crazy obito fans make a thread that's completely retarded every time a glimmer of hope comes up. Nothing happens to them lol. 

*Let akwell breath and all hail lord orochimaru!!!!!!!!!!! *


----------



## son_michael (Jul 20, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> QFT
> 
> That's what I'm trying to point out. They *all* have glaring plot holes. Obito is just flavor of the week.



flavor of the week? We've been predicting obito since tobi first appeared.


Its only now that people are realizing that we were right.



and again, you people seem to ignore common sense. Tobi can't be izuna because he was mentioned in 1 panel and nobody cares about him, you do not make a gigantic reveal be somebody that fans don't give a shit about or even know for that matter. Don't say stupid shit like "how do you know what fans think?" Its obvious! The guy was in 1 panel, there's no emotional investment in his character.


Another thing...you say your not against this theory but it pissing you off that people are starting to accept it? Dude, Ive been arguing for this theory for 5 years! You have any idea how many times I was ridiculed and how this theory was shit on? And now your pissed because this theory is getting the recognition it deserves? 

just sit back and watch us be proven right


----------



## Kyrie Eleison (Jul 20, 2012)

Grendel said:


> Why is the height even an issue??



Height is an issue primarily because of the large discrepancy between Tobi's height and Obito's height at the time of his death. Growth spurts are normal for adolescents but growing 6+ inches in around a year is rather unusual. As I had mentioned earlier in response to somebody else, it is always possible that Kishi is just very inconsistent with the characters height, like he is with Itachi during flashbacks, but that doesn't lessen the abnormality of it.

Edit to avoid double posting:


son_michael said:


> and again, you people seem to ignore common sense. Tobi can't be izuna because he was mentioned in 1 panel and nobody cares about him, you do not make a gigantic reveal be somebody that fans don't give a shit about or even know for that matter. Don't say stupid shit like "how do you know what fans think?" Its obvious! The guy was in 1 panel, there's no emotional investment in his character.



Izuna was mentioned by both Itachi and Tobi in relation to Madara. As for relevance, Obito and Izuna have almost the same amount of relevance. Obito's relevance is tied to explaining how Kakashi gained his sharingan (and monicker) and Izuna's relevance extends to explaining how Madara regained his sight. In that regard their roles are nearly identical.


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Jul 20, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> As the Kyuubi attack happened 1 year or so after Obito's death



Where do you get this?  Minato was a jonin instructor when Obito "died."  

Do you really think Minato was Hokage for less than a year?


----------



## Grendel (Jul 20, 2012)

Obito doesn't die....witnesses Rin's do death and awakens his ms...instant power boost and he would then have his warp/st which is all he used against minato...and if ms allows karuma control then that is explained as well...

Also teens that age have growth spurts...


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Jul 20, 2012)

Grendel said:


> Obito doesn't die....witnesses Rin's do death and awakens his ms...instant power boost and he would then have his warp/st which is all he used against minato...and if ms allows karuma control then that is explained as well...
> 
> *Also teens that age have growth spurts*...


lol!!!! great troll post, especially the bold. This is exactly how they all sound and they're dead ass serious too.

@Velocity

No homo at the last voting option lol!!! Only females should vote for that one.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 20, 2012)

Anonymouse said:
			
		

> You really aren't being objective. I never said I'm opposed to any theory. I simply don't believe the forum hype. *Obito makes as much, and as little sense*, as any of the others. That's including FrankenZetsu and FutureSasuke and ZombieIzuna and all the other strange fanfiction that gets posted here and labeled "theory".



Part of the "sense" that goes into predicting who he'll be is looking from outside the series and making a judgment from the author's/business' point of view.



> Deal with this... I simply don't care who Tobi is.
> 
> I'm interested to find out, but it doesn't go any further than that in terms of emotional attachment. He's the bad guy. He's gonna lose. I've already written him off as a reader. At this point, "No one" is good enough for me, because it teaches the main character "Well, shit! Sometimes people are just fuckin' evil for no reason..."
> If it turns out to be someone else... anyone else, Obito, Izuna, JuubiIncarnate, Ichiraku'sGrandfather... I'll be equally as entertained. That's the difference between our points of view. So, please don't tell me my opinions in your next reply, like your last two.



You're basically saying "Since I don't care about who he is, whatever happens is fine with me," and that is not the audience the author would be looking to cater to.

Kishimoto probably, and this is a wild guess here, assumes his audience actually _cares_. 

So, I'm sorry for lumping you in with that extremist group.



			
				Kyrie Elieson said:
			
		

> Izuna was mentioned by both Itachi and Tobi in relation to Madara. As for relevance, Obito and Izuna have almost the same amount of relevance. Obito's relevance is tied to explaining how Kakashi gained his sharingan (and monicker) and Izuna's relevance extends to explaining how Madara regained his sight. In that regard their roles are nearly identical.



Son_Michael was talking about _emotional_ relevance. Plot-wise, Izuna has tons of relevance. Other than that, the fans don't know or care about him. He doesn't even have a name (revealed in the manga).



> Well, if you want an equally implausible theory, Izuna.



The "criteria" I was referring to was: _emotional_. Izuna lacks the most important part; nobody knows or cares about him.

Story-wise, there's no "theory" without plotholes. So, we don't argue about that, because it's a given. We talk about what makes the most sense from a writer's point of view, from a money-making and shock-value-seeking point of view, etc.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Jul 20, 2012)

Hi. I am new to naruto forums but i have been cheking out threads for two months. All i can say about tobi theory is *kishi wants him to be madara*. Restructing madara via ET is an asspull.
We all accepted tobi overpower is because thinking he is madara. Now kishi is trolling us with tobi's identity. /thread


----------



## Grendel (Jul 20, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> lol!!!! great troll post, especially the bold. This is exactly how they all sound and they're dead ass serious too.
> 
> @Velocity
> 
> No homo at the last voting option lol!!! Only females should vote for that one.



I am not "dead ass serious"...I can't claim to be a tobito supporter though this chapter got me considering it again...

Funny thing is you found the part of my post that is completely true to be the funniest...

Also find it interesting that a theory about a fictional world with magical ninja can turn certain people into complete assholes (not directed at quoted person particularly but based on what i am seeing from a lot of the dissenters on nf) which is why i hope it turns out to be true...


----------



## MS81 (Jul 20, 2012)

you guys do know it was 12 years ago in the beginning right?


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 20, 2012)

Isn't Tobi both Shisui and Obito in the movie? (Obito within the Genjutsu, Shisui outside of it?)

If so, then I doubt it's either of them.


----------



## Kusa (Jul 20, 2012)

It should be someone who shares a bond with Naruto and not Kakashi.


----------



## Easley (Jul 20, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> Isn't Tobi both Shisui and Obito in the movie? (Obito within the Genjutsu, Shisui outside of it?)
> 
> If so, then I doubt it's either of them.


Yeah, the mask breaks and he's Shisui. Obito seems to be within the genjutsu, but I'm uncertain about that.

If the next chapter doesn't reveal Tobi's identity then I'm sure it isn't either of them. The manga should show his face first.

The spoilers are a bit vague though, there seems to be several "masked guys" in the movie.


----------



## Malumultimus (Jul 20, 2012)

If Tobi is Obito, clearly Madara attacked Konoha. We know he didn't die until decades after Hashirama did as he knew of Nagato and that Tobi was trying to resurrect him.


----------



## Tyrannos (Jul 20, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> Also that little kid couldn't gain the amount of knowledge of the ninja world and the inner workings of the leaf a few years after his death. He also just gained his sharringan lol. LOL at obito knowing top secret info on karama being sealed in naruto's mom. *Lets just ignore these obito threads every time they show up please!!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Got to admit, that's a good possibily.    But if it is him, there is no real shock value since people will be like "who?"


----------



## Easley (Jul 20, 2012)

Malumultimus said:


> If Tobi is Obito, clearly Madara attacked Konoha. We know he didn't die until decades after Hashirama did as he knew of Nagato and that Tobi was trying to resurrect him.


I'm pretty sure it was Tobi who attacked Konoha. Space-time jutsu + intangibility are his signature moves, but we assume the guy who controlled Yagura is also Tobi. Short hair, long, then back to short? I don't usually put much stock in hair length but this is weird, and he wore the 'flame' mask meeting Itachi.

I believe Madara died after awakening the Rinnegan, when Nagato was a kid - long before the attack.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 20, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Where do you get this?  Minato was a jonin instructor when Obito "died."
> 
> Do you really think Minato was Hokage for less than a year?



Because Gaiden took place around when Kakashi,Rin and Obito were about 13 thus approximately 17 years ago.
1 year before the Kyuubi Incident.
And no it can't have taken earlier as Rin and Obito were Chuunin.


----------



## Rain (Jul 20, 2012)

Why would Tobi give a damn fuck about some random girl who died 10 years ago or so?

inb4 cuz Tobi is Obito


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 20, 2012)

Assuming she is dead.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 20, 2012)

DAT Rin

There would be no plot without her


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 20, 2012)

Justice said:


> It should be someone who shares a bond with Naruto and not Kakashi.



We already have Sasuke for that.

And Tobi already kinda shares a bond with Naruto too as he screwed his whole life and killed his parents.


----------



## MR T (Jul 20, 2012)

I'm also puzzled by how alike Madaras teleport and Kakashi's MS are, the diffrent dimension part that is. If Obito is Tobi that kinda explains why Kakashi's MS is what it is.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 20, 2012)

Tyrannos said:


> Got to admit, that's a good possibily.    But if it is him, there is no real shock value since people will be like "who?"



Yes. Virtually every theory on Tobi's identity has holes. One such hole in the Kagami theory is Kagami's apparent lack of relevance and connection to the main characters. No matter which perspective I take, the reader's or the writer's, I see no emotional value in it. 

I still believe it's likely that Tobi is Obito, at least in form. The holes can be covered using a couple of assumptions, as long as such assumptions aren't impossible or too far-fetched, such as the possibility that drastic physical modifications turned Obito into an adult-sized person.


----------



## Fuujin (Jul 20, 2012)

Your issue with it is size difference? Even though he's been shown to be able to regrow arms with the help of Zetsu? Even though Juugo freely alters his body mass in the story?

Hmmm...


----------



## arokh (Jul 20, 2012)

Haha, trying to make the timeline fit! Good luck  Wasn't it proven Itachi's timeline for instance was completely fucked?

There's lots of ways he could be Obito:

1. There could be different Tobi's, we've seen different personalities and masks. 
2. Obito's body. We've seen split consciousness and body takeover from Orochimaru.
3. Obito from the future! Maybe he was practicing his S/T jutsu while training with Zetsu years in the future and accidentally warped back in time.

Anyways, his remark about Kakashi living his life in regret tells me he is a Konoha ninja who knows Kakashi very well. I don't know how the fuck Izuna would know Kakashi's feelings.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 20, 2012)

Seems as true tobito believer show their real light. I'm disappointed


----------



## Aggeri (Jul 20, 2012)

BringerOfCarnage brought up a point in this thread which I think nobody has answered yet but it seems highly relevant

I quote him "Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Obito know all about Hiraishin?"

I mean, Obito was on team with Kakashi and Rin and Minato was their Sensei, so obviously Minato must've revealed his Hiraishin at one point? I even think during the Kakashi Gaiden we see Minato dropping his bag at one point to take out a villain while his 3 students are recovering from an attack?

Because Tobi doesnt recognize his speed when he fights Minato during the Kyuubi attack does he? If it was Obito, he would know yeah?

Props to BringerOfCarnage though


----------



## HakuGaara (Jul 20, 2012)

Asherah said:


> That sounds like a fanfic. This is the problem here: the Obito theory is based on assumptions and jumping to conclusions. There is no coherent theory because there are far too many gaps in explaining how Obito could've become Tobi. There are too many problems. Sure, you can explain them away with conjecture, but you can make the Ramen Guy become Tobi with conjecture, too. This is not a done deal and Tobi is certainly not "obviously" or "clearly" Obito. I wish people would take a step back instead of picking and choosing the bits that suit their favourite theory.



This ^^^^



Raventhal said:


> Lol, if it wasn't theory than it would be canon.  Obito theory has more circumstancial evidence than most other theories.  A lot of other folks rely on time travel and immortality



He wasn't saying that it had to be cannon, just that the theory had to have something more than just guesswork+personal preferance.

And for the record, this is fantasy, so time travel and immortality is still more plausible than Tobi=Obito.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You're not analyzing anything. You're just saying something can't be but providing no actual evidence as to _why_ it can't be.



You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the tobito camp's shoulders and you have yet to provide.



jacamo said:


> there are as many as 11 plotholes... maybe more!



Yes but the tobitotards will ignore this because they get off on thinking about good guys going bad. It's the same reason that retarded AL=Minato theory came into  existence.



Mistshadow said:


> Well if you read the last handful of pages, you SHOULD notice that the only ones who are cementing 100% nothing else are the ones saying it isn't obito. Every other Obito theorist here has been saying it is a possibility while the deniers simply say impossible, it isn't, can't be, as if they are writing the story.



The reason for that is because Tobito doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It's not because we're hating on Obito or whatever.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It is truly sad that people don't see how Obito fits into the story and why he was introduced.



I do. He was a plot device for Kakashi's character development. The end. 

It's only the tobitotards that think there 'must' be something more to his character despite the fact that there was no evidence to support this during Kakashi Gaiden.



As for my own two cents, I'm still going for Tobi being an aspect of Madara. That has the most plausibility than anything else so far.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 20, 2012)

Perhaps someone should open a poll thread with people betting on either "Tobito" happening or not with the losers changing their avatar to something  like, "I lost to Tobito" or "Tobito failed just as I did" for a few months.^^


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 20, 2012)

The Tobito theory is serious business.

Normally only pairing threads result in such...heated discussions.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 20, 2012)

Arles Celes said:


> Perhaps someone should open a poll thread with people betting on either "Tobito" happening or not with the losers changing their avatar to something  like, "I lost to Tobito" or "Tobito failed just as I did" for a few months.^^



Yeah it could work, though I agree with ts opinion that such bet is too boring. With money or something like that prove your 100% conviction


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> This ^^^^
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Finally, a poster with a brain.

In regards to Obito's importance to the plot. I truly think there is more to him than just what was seen in Gaiden. I think Kishi was introducing the main villain of the series. Considering there are some loose ends regarding Gaiden and need to be tied up. Considering Kakashi is fighting Tobi and Kakashi's year ism starting this year most likely, I think it's safe to say that what will provoke the year to begin is Tobi being Obito. Remember,Kishi said Kakashi would play a big part in the plot soon.

Obito, being a direct parallel to Naruto, would make a fitting final villain for the series, better than any other one could. I don't understand how people don't see the symbolism in this. Kishi didn't put so many similarities between them just for lulz. 


The other theories are who he could be fall short. Tobi's character has similarities to Obito. None of the other candidates have had anything in Tobi's character to really suggest that they were the same person. I just feel that Tobi's many similarities to Obito mean something.


I don't think Tobi being an "aspect" of Madara is plausible. Why?:

1. Why reveal Edo Madara and just make the big reveal of Tobit to be a part of Madara?

2. If Tobi was Madara, or at least looked just like him, why wear a mask?


----------



## Andrew (Jul 20, 2012)

His new name would be trollobito since people are starting to believe he that Tobi is not Obito. Just because his name is spells t-o-b-i doesn't mean he is o-b-i-t-o. It doesn't make sense that a 11 year old kid was revived, Knows so Much about the ten tails, mastering EMS, wants to bring revenge on the shinobi world who makes comments like 

"Those that break the rules and regulations are scum. But those who abandon their comrades are worse than scum!" 

And would Stab Konan.

Kisame doesn't know who the hell is obito.

He knows its Madara without the mask.


----------



## TJFuZioN (Jul 20, 2012)

I've been saying for a while that, although I don't think the Tobito theory makes much logical sense, it most complety fulfills many thematic and emotional arcs of all the theories so far, and for that reason (more than any other), it's probably the strongest.  A close second for me is Tobi=Juubi.  In some way...

Anyway, I have 2 things I want to mention:

1. Why does everyone say that only a year seperates Kakashi Gaiden and the Kyuubi Attack? Was this stated somewhere? As far as I can tell, it could be as many as 5 (probably less though). Someone enlighten me, please.

2. The page where Tobi talks to Kakashi and Guy was a obviously meant to be a big hint of some kind (if it wasn't then the whole forum wouldn't be talking about it), but equally as interesting, I think, is the page before it.

Stopped reading right there.

I may be reading to much into things, but this immediately jumped out at me. 

Kakashi says he wants to try something, then opens his left eye (presumably preparing for Kamui). Then the very next panel is a close up of Tobi's Sharingan eye. That seems as big a hint as any to me! It can't just be a coincidence. I'm not saying it confirms he's Obito but COME ON!


----------



## ? (Jul 20, 2012)

Whoever he is it has to be someone Kakashi, Gai, and Naruto would recognize, otherwise there would be no point in having a mask and teasing them with his identity. That should eliminate people like Kagami, and Izuna since there would be no shock or emotional impact from anyone. He also seems to know Kakashi and Gai on a personal level based on their conversation this chapter.  I don't buy the bullshit from people saying it means nothing, it obviously did. Just look at the expression on Gai and Kakashi's face. It even makes Gai question Tobi about his identity. 

At this point Obito makes the most sense IMO. For reasons explained multiple times ITT, which I can't be arsed to repeat. It also makes sense in that Tobi is like a ,  (  )and Obito is very similar to Naruto. Hell, Itachi even explains how someone like Naruto could turn out like Tobi. The main problem is all the plotholes, but that could easily be explained away. It's not like plotholes have stopped Kishi in the past.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 20, 2012)

Aggeri said:


> BringerOfCarnage brought up a point in this thread which I think nobody has answered yet but it seems highly relevant
> 
> I quote him "Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Obito know all about Hiraishin?"
> 
> ...



Apparently, Tobi did know. In that page, he describes what the Hiraishin could do, and this was before his final match with Minato. Nothing indicates that he was unaware of the technique or its uses before their first encounter, either.


----------



## Trent (Jul 20, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Dude. *SaruTOBI *Konohamaru!



Hey! There might be something there! :amazed

Well, it can't be "Heir of the 3rd" and future Hokage Konohamaru BUT we've never heard much about his parents, have we? 

How about his mum got killed by the war and *his dad *became crazy and took the Tobi persona? 

The son of a kage would be strong, he'd have had intel on the village, it's history, clans and specialized jutsus, etc. And he would be old enough to attack Konoha! 

It's obvious!


----------



## Addy (Jul 20, 2012)

100$? 
that's it?


----------



## insane111 (Jul 20, 2012)

Some dickwad with no intention of paying will bet you, but he'll be sure to take the money if he wins. Enjoy the scam 

Or the other way around, the only way it would work is if you're both willing to send the money to a moderator to hold for the winner.


----------



## †obitobi (Jul 20, 2012)

Don't know what this person's real motive is, but I think that everyone should first be aware of his/her determination, in my opinion, to bet for money before you take any action.




*Spoiler*: __ 





lucid1 said:


> p.s. i'm happy to bet you money tobi isn't obito. Although I doubt you're willing to put your money where your mouth is.





lucid1 said:


> I'll bet you $50 Tobi doesn't turn out to be Obito. Are you man enough?





lucid1 said:


> And why won't you bet me money on the Obito issue? Answer the damn question.





lucid1 said:


> you should put your money where your mouth is and I'll happily oblige. Then a posteriori we can see who was right.






Just be careful.


----------



## Edo Madara (Jul 20, 2012)

DremolitoX said:


> What about naruto? He mastered rasenshuriken, sage mode, was given kyuubi mode + bijudama in the span of ...what......3 months?



obito isn't main character

speaking of this tobito theory kishi just playing mindgames with your people


----------



## Mateush (Jul 20, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> Don't know what this person's real motive is, but I think that everyone should first be aware of his/her determination, in my opinion, to bet for money before you take any action.
> 
> 
> 
> Just be careful.



It doesn't matter. TS has his reason to be confident about why Tobi can't be Obito, the same goes for certain tobito believers. I think this is a interesting idea, though I won't bet for anything I'm not sure about.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 20, 2012)

Kyrie Eleison said:


> Height is an issue primarily because of the large discrepancy between Tobi's height and Obito's height at the time of his death. Growth spurts are normal for adolescents but growing 6+ inches in around a year is rather unusual. As I had mentioned earlier in response to somebody else, it is always possible that Kishi is just very inconsistent with the characters height, like he is with Itachi during flashbacks, but that doesn't lessen the abnormality of it.
> 
> Edit to avoid double posting:
> 
> ...



It was 2 years as far as we know.  It says 16 years ago from the attack, Obito death was 18 years ago.  I went from 5'5 to 5'10 from 13-15.  At 16 I was 6'1.  At 17 I was 6'3.


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

subzero0204 said:


> by orichimaru , would you trust that guy with your "dead body" pervy sage stopped granny T from seeing the corpse just gave her the necklace , remember this was around the time orichimaru was taking kids for his experiments


Tobi looks nothing like Nawaki. How are we supposed to recognize a face that's unrecognizable. Not to mention he different hair color.



fantzipants said:


> It's hashirama and madara was the good guy all along


Lololol. I'd crack up if this is true.



fukkengan said:


> Unrevealed characters to the readers makes more sense than Obito, even your theory states that Kakashi was supose to be evil by now.


No, it doesn't. Kishi won't hide someone's identity for so long to reveal it as a character no one's ever seen before. how the hell would he even build anything off of that. The whole ordeal is just nuts, no matter how you look at it. As my previous post has stated, Obito makes the most sense for FV. And my theory never stated that Kakashi would become evil. Read it more carefully.


----------



## HakuGaara (Jul 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> In regards to Obito's importance to the plot. I truly think there is more to him than just what was seen in Gaiden. I think Kishi was introducing the main villain of the series.



And the evidence for this is.....what exactly?



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Considering there are some loose ends regarding Gaiden and need to be tied up.



*What* loose ends?????



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Considering Kakashi is fighting Tobi



Lots of people are fighting Tobi.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> and Kakashi's year ism starting this year most likely, I think it's safe to say that what will provoke the year to begin is Tobi being Obito. Remember,Kishi said Kakashi would play a big part in the plot soon.



So Kakashi can't play a big part in the plot unless Tobi is Obito? Sorry but I'm not seeing what one has to do with the other.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Obito, being a direct parallel to Naruto, would make a fitting final villain for the series, better than any other one could.



*What*????? Do you even realize how little sense that made?!?!?



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I don't understand how people don't see the symbolism in this. Kishi didn't put so many similarities between them just for lulz.



The similarities foreshadow Naruto saving Sasuke just as Obito saved Kakashi. That's all. How you twisted that into Obito inexplicably surviving death and doing a 180 personality change completely baffles me.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I just feel that Tobi's many similarities to Obito mean something.



*What* similarities????



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> 1. Why reveal Edo Madara and just make the big reveal of Tobit to be a part of Madara?



Because Tobi being part Madara won't be the interesting part. It's *why* he is part Madara that will be interesting.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> 2. If Tobi was Madara, or at least looked just like him, why wear a mask?



Because he's not 'really' Madara so there's no point in people seeing him and recognizing him and mistaking him for Madara unless it serves a purpose (ex.Sasuke, Kisame). This is also why he refers to himself as 'no one', because he doesn't have his own identity.


----------



## Ezekial (Jul 20, 2012)

I'm 99.99% certain he's Izuna, I wouldn't bet though, Kishi would troll me


----------



## NO (Jul 20, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> Don't know what this person's real motive is, but I think that everyone should first be aware of his/her determination, in my opinion, to bet for money before you take any action.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Be careful? All he is asking is to make a serious bet. If someone on this forum makes a bet, then they will have to pay up via paypal or something if they are wrong. If they don't, oh well. He can tell the story of "this one idiot made a bet and lost" when that poster makes a stupid theory.

There's no risk here. Either you chicken out of the bet when you're wrong or pay up. He is willing to pay if he's wrong.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 20, 2012)

Kakashi and Guy's reaction are not just there for fun.  Its not just from a taunt.  It was meant to come off as showing it was someone they should know especially from the ...! from Kakashi.  That it was said in a personal, intimate tone.

Kakashi has been shown not to have friends outside of his team and Guy who until recently never took serious.  What other Uchiha is there?  And don't say it's Obito's body but not his spirit because it makes no sense that someone impersonating his body would be personal.


----------



## MangekyouLollipop (Jul 20, 2012)

I think that Tobi is a new character named Tobi, who is a Madara fanboy *lo0o0ol*
Kishi's a big troll, it could be that.

Ok, ok, now being serious, he can't be Obito, because, as you know, he got his face smashed ( a half of his face ). Plus, he died right there, and when Konan broke a half of Tobi's mask, we could see both eyes intact, both sharingan. So, he isn't Obito. i think tobi is Madara's brother.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 20, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> Yes. Virtually every theory on Tobi's identity has holes. One such hole in the Kagami theory is Kagami's apparent lack of relevance and connection to the main characters. No matter which perspective I take, the reader's or the writer's, I see no emotional value in it.
> 
> I still believe it's likely that Tobi is Obito, at least in form. The holes can be covered using a couple of assumptions, as long as such assumptions aren't impossible or too far-fetched, such as the possibility that drastic physical modifications turned Obito into an adult-sized person.



That's not a hole, that's just your own personal misgivings. The "Tobito" theory has more holes in it than swiss cheese, the timeline of events, his physical stats, etc. They just don't fit. I think it's hilarious you Tobito supporters are so adamant on dismissing other far more plausible assumptions, and ultimately really have nothing to fit Obito into this whole thing. Tobi has clearly been around for over 40 years, if his relationship with Nagato is any indication, Not to mention, *his entire face is intact* If Obito were around he'd be nothing close to that age.

Honestly it'd make perfect sense if he was someone like Kagami, IE, a "nobody".


----------



## Mateush (Jul 20, 2012)

Well I'm bored and decided to make a bet against you. To be honest I *don't* believe he's Obito in anyway, though maybe he has the eye or something. But what the heck, I like gambling.

Do you accept the delay with the payment for a period of 1 month from the day Tobi's identity is revealed? Just in case we can be ready with paypal and the money in good time.

(I win if Tobi is Obito in person *or* his body in some way is mixed with Obito and other shit, right?)


----------



## Trent (Jul 20, 2012)

The only way I _could _tolerate a Tobito possibility would be this:

Madara fought Hashirama, was defeated but got himself some of his cells.

He then experimented on those cells, unlocked the Rinnegan, and eventually created Zetsu. Upon his death, he ordered Zetsu to integrate in himself the information needed to make a perfect clone of him and to further his goals.

At that point only, could I personally bear introducing Obito in the mix.

Zetsu _could _have used the remains of Obito's body and his own cells to create Tobi, the perfect clone of Madara, made from an Uchiha corpse (or at worse, Obito's dying body) and his own modified Senju cells thus making him a Ridukou, with all the knowledge of Madara and all the knowledge that Zetsu had accumulated over the years. 

And if Obito wasn't fully dead then implanting Madara's mind in him would have overwritten his old persona, maybe only leaving remnants of it, a bit like with Oro's soul transfer jutsu.

Such clone would pretty much immediately be operational and powerful hence could have been the one responsible for the Kyuubi's attack on Konoha.


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

MangekyouLollipop said:


> I think that Tobi is a new character named Tobi, who is a Madara fanboy *lo0o0ol*
> Kishi's a big troll, it could be that.
> 
> Ok, ok, now being serious, he can't be Obito, because, as you know, he got his face smashed ( a half of his face ). Plus, he died right there, and when Konan broke a half of Tobi's mask, we could see both eyes intact, both sharingan. So, he isn't Obito. i think tobi is Madara's brother.


Actually, it's not impossible for him to be Obito. We can see that half of Tobi's face has what appears to be scars. That could be from the boulder. And the boulder clearly didn't go through his head. Plus, the second eye was implanted. He wouldn't have been covering it if it was his.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 20, 2012)

Lmfaoo none of the tobito tards stepped up yet? thats odd.. considering your confidence 

5 star thread




Anonymouse said:


> The part that's bothering me is all the "Well, maybe..." in response to logical questions.
> 
> Immediately after the "*Well, maybe..." will usually be 3 paragraphs of fanfic with nothing to back it up. The confidence they have in the things they make up themselves is what bothers me about the entire theory. *



till now i couldnt figure out why this theory bugged me so much, and i think you made me realize now


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 20, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Yeah it could work, though I agree with ts opinion that such bet is too boring. With money or something like that prove your 100% conviction



During the time when NF speculated on who Nagato was I seem to recall a few members betting their nuts on who will he end up.

However I REALLY doubt any of them actually honored such a...colourful bet LOL


----------



## PikaCheeka (Jul 20, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> This is my main gripe with the theory.
> 
> The Kyuubi recognized Tobi on the spot the moment he was extracted from Kushina. The panels indicated he knew so due to the sharingan, given the fact that it was emphasized greatly. The problem with assuming he is Obito is that the Kyuubi was sealed the entirety of Obito's lifetime and Obito's sharingan was never seen by anyone but Kakashi and Rin. The combination of those two factors makes it impossible for the Kyuubi to be able to recognize Obito's sharingan.
> 
> The idea that the Kyuubi would have such a reaction to Tobi, even though he's never seen Obito's sharingan seems farfetched to me.



Ace gets reps for 900000 years because I thought I had all the "Tobito makes no sense" facts in a box already.



> Tobi has a gigantic obsession with Hashirama, he's stated he was Madara even on Konan's deathbed. He has a contract seal with the Kyuubi as well as the ability to summon it, something only Madara had the ability to do. He was seen standing on top of Madara's statue as if reminiscing on the past.
> 
> Tobi has a very personal connection to Madara given the gigantic hints Kishi threw in our faces. In fact, *the connections to Madara far outweigh the connections to Obito*.



Yea all of this can't be said enough. I have difficulty believing that Obito could have been a history buff to the extent that he did re-enacting, complete with Hashirama-fapping.



Fuujin said:


> Your issue with it is size difference? Even though he's been shown to be able to regrow arms with the help of Zetsu? Even though Juugo freely alters his body mass in the story?
> 
> Hmmm...



Just how much of the OP did you read?


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No, it doesn't. Kishi won't hide someone's identity for so long to reveal it as a character no one's ever seen before. how the hell would he even build anything off of that. The whole ordeal is just nuts, no matter how you look at it. As my previous post has stated, Obito makes the most sense for FV. And my theory never stated that Kakashi would become evil. Read it more carefully.



 I dont think you read what I say or you are trying to take my words out of context. As long as the identy is important plotwise, or for the characters it would be wise to hide it. 

 I said this when I told you about Pain's identity.


----------



## DoflaMihawk (Jul 20, 2012)

Or Tobi could actually be Rin.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 20, 2012)

We already knew this, but thanks for bringing it up again, it's one of the stronger cases against it being the case.


----------



## DoflaMihawk (Jul 20, 2012)

OMG it's ASUMA!


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 20, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Well I'm bored and decided to make a bet against you. To be honest I *don't* believe he's Obito in anyway, though maybe he has the eye or something. But what the heck, I like gambling.
> 
> Do you accept the delay with the payment for a period of 1 month from the day Tobi's identity is revealed? Just in case we can be ready with paypal and the money in good time.
> 
> (I win if Tobi is Obito in person *or* his body in some way is mixed with Obito and other shit, right?)



So you're on for the full $100? I will most likely have the money ready when the reveal is made so I will pay it asap. what do you mean by 1 month delay? Read the op for info on what I will and won't accept regarding Tobi being Obito.

If you can confirm that you're taking the bet then we'll exchange emails for paypal purposes (i'm assuming you know how to send other people money via paypal?). We should both put something in our sig about this to serve as a pledge/reminder.


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 20, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> Don't know what this person's real motive is,



I think it could have something to do with betting on Tobi's true identity. not sure though


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 20, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Kakashi has been shown not to have friends outside of his team and Guy who until recently never took serious.  *What other Uchiha is there?  *And don't say it's Obito's body but not his spirit because it makes no sense that someone impersonating his body would be personal.



We don?t really know for certain Tobi is an Uchiha. Transplanting eyes doesn?t appear to be a very difficult task in this story. It?s likely that he is, but no guarantee that his identity is contingent on that.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 20, 2012)

This should be rather interesting...


----------



## Mateush (Jul 20, 2012)

lucid1 said:


> So you're on for the full $100? I will most likely have the money ready when the reveal is made so I will pay it asap. what do you mean by 1 month delay? Read the op for info on what I will and won't accept regarding Tobi being Obito.
> 
> If you can confirm that you're taking the bet then we'll exchange emails for paypal purposes (i'm assuming you know how to send other people money via paypal?). We should both put something in our sig about this to serve as a pledge/reminder.



I'm just not sure if I understood your conditions. I win if Tobi is Obito in person or he has Obito or also other mixtures in his body? For me it's more logical that if he is Obito or has a part of him then I win. You win if he is not Obito or neither has some part of him. But it's up to you to decide.

1 month delay is that you may get $100 asap, or have to wait within 1 month for the money. But not longer than 1 month from the day Tobi is revealed. Sounds it fair?


----------



## Trent (Jul 20, 2012)

DoflaMihawk said:


> OMG it's ASUMA!



It's Asuma*'s brother and father of Konohamaru*, who was absent from Konoha all this time.

_*Coincidence???*_


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 20, 2012)

why is something related to kakashi gaiden in the telegrams?


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 20, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I'm just not sure if I understood your conditions. I win if Tobi is Obito in person or he has Obito or also other mixtures in his body? For me it's more logical that if he is Obito or has a part of him then I win. You win if he is not Obito or neither has some part of him. But it's up to you to decide.
> 
> 1 month delay is that you may get $100 asap, or have to wait within 1 month for the money. But not longer than 1 month from the day Tobi is revealed. Sounds it fair?



yes the minimum requirement for me is obito's head. If it happens to be someone else just using obito's eye then I win. Same for if someone just took his face or something else superficial. And if it never gets revealed then obviously neither of us pays. I don't think this'll matter much anyway because I think it'll be pretty clear cut.

So after one month what happens if one of us hasn't paid? I mean I'd rather get paid after one month than not paid at all if you know what I mean. Unless you mean we get someone to hold on to the money for us? not a big fan of that idea tbh considering it could be a long time before the reveal.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 20, 2012)

lucid1 said:


> yes the minimum requirement for me is obito's head. If it happens to be someone else just using obito's eye then I win. Same for if someone just took his face or something else superficial. I don't think this'll matter much anyway because I think it'll be pretty clear cut.



In my eyes it's not fair, because you have the upper advantage and win even if Tobi does use Obito's eye or another part expect the head.

But I'm a nice guy and will probably agree these stupid conditions, otherwise I hope you can be more fair and agree my condition: I win = Obito or a part of him (no matter what part) You win = Not Obito or neither a part of him. It's far more 50% fair for us both.

Anyway, I'll pm you with my msn.

edit:
I myself can guarantee you that you will get $100 money as fast as possible, absolutely no longer than 1 month. I also trust you'll do the same


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 20, 2012)

Seems fair that:

If it's Obito himself, Obito's body (Revived etc), DNA or personality then you owe them the $100.
*However.*
If it's only the eye of Obito (We wouldn't call Danzo 'Shisui' for simply using an eye, this'll be seperate to the DNA clause in the previous argument) Or not Obito in any way shape nor form (No Dna, nothing)  They owe you the $100.

Regardless, neither of you will pay the money as you only have someone's word over an internet forum to go by.  Unless you give it to some trusted member higher-up as a middle man,  and even then it's a trust trade. And nothing stops them just going off and spending the lovely $200.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 20, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Seems fair that:
> 
> If it's Obito himself, Obito's body (Revived etc) or DNA then you owe them the $100.
> *However.*
> ...



Yup, I agree the eye part (that if Tobi does use only eye then I lose). Otherwise a part of Obito's DNA then I should win.

$200? I dunno if I misunderstood, but I could agree for $100 pay not more.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 20, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Yup, I agree the eye part (that if Tobi does use only eye then I lose). Otherwise a part of Obito's DNA then I should win.
> 
> $200? I dunno if I misunderstood, but I could agree for $100 pay not more.



I meant if you used a middle-man (someone trusted you both give your $100 to = a total of $200 who'm passes it over to the victor, that way the bet DEFINITELY goes down) However, this is more risky as you're parting with your money.  As opposed to the other scenario, of the other member simply not paying up, and you loose nothing.

And yes, Using Just the eye amounts to a win for the OP of the thread, as, like i argued we wouldn't refer to 'Danzo' as Shisui for simply using an eye.  Nor is he Shisui in any way shape, or form.

Please note: I added 'Personality' in the win requirements for you, as that 'is' essentially Obito's essence.  You could extend that to 'soul' as well.


----------



## Litho (Jul 20, 2012)

I think it might just be Obito because Kishi is a sucky writer.


----------



## principito (Jul 20, 2012)

I'll take the bet...

i have a webpage and u can throw in the cash via paypal..... i win i keep it.... i lose i'll return 200.

my reputation with my customers preceeds me....

Tobi is Obito despite the fact I dont like it


----------



## Mateush (Jul 20, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> I meant if you used a middle-man (someone trusted you both give your $100 to = a total of $200 who'm passes it over to the victor, that way the bet DEFINITELY goes down) However, this is more risky as you're parting with your money.  As opposed to the other scenario, of the other member simply not paying up, and you loose nothing.
> 
> And yes, Using Just the eye amounts to a win for the OP of the thread, as, like i argued we wouldn't refer to 'Danzo' as Shisui for simply using an eye.  Nor is he Shisui in any way shape, or form.
> 
> Please note: I added 'Personality' in the win requirements for you, as that 'is' essentially Obito's essence.  You could extend that to 'soul' as well.



Well the payment sure sounds a good idea and I think TS probably will agree. Let's see if someone moderator or trusted memeber could take the middle hand. 

Well I don't like the idea about personality is a requirment even though if Tobi has a lot of Obito inside him. Compare with Yamato who doesn't have Hashirama's personality.

Anyway, let's see what TS thinks just so we can finish the bet.


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 20, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Well I don't like the idea about personality is a requirment even though if Tobi has a lot of Obito inside him. Compare with Yamato who doesn't have Hashirama's personality.



Huh? The theory is that Tobi = Obito, not Tobi = parts of Obito.

If he?s some other guy that cannibalized the kid for upgrades I don?t see how that qualifies, unless Obito?s consciousness/memories/personality lives on in some way.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 20, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Well the payment sure sounds a good idea and I think TS probably will agree. Let's see if someone moderator or trusted memeber could take the middle hand.
> *
> Well I don't like the idea about personality is a requirment even though if Tobi has a lot of Obito inside him. Compare with Yamato who doesn't have Hashirama's personality.
> *
> Anyway, let's see what TS thinks just so we can finish the bet.



Personality as in,  The body could be different, But if it's Obito's soul or personality within it (see Orochimaru example below), the win goes to the person stating it 'IS' Obito.   Yamato doesn't have Hashirama's personality, Nor is he Hashirama  Just his DNA.  So will this count?

DNA is a tricky subject actually,  as it's tossed around in this manga so much with Yamato, Hashirama, Madara etc.  Yet it doesn't 'make them' the person who's DNA they stole,   So i suppose it's down to you two to decide when it comes to DNA itself and how it's implemented.

However, i think it being Obito's 'Personality, Soul,  Or Obito himself' Is a good condition for the one betting on it being him,  as Obito's Soul is essentially his entire being. As  *It's like Orochimaru still being Orochimaru in another body.
*
And

"Obito's eye only,  Someone completely different etc."  (Add in merely Obito's body OR Obito's face on Tobi's body similar to Madara's if you come to the agreement that it doesn't count).
As a condition for the one betting on it not being him.

For DNA, you guys have to decide
A) If it's ANY DNA (Like Yamato's instance) then is it a win/loss?
B) Does the DNA have to replicate Obito in any way? (Hashirama face on Madara's body type)  Or does this not count?  Does it HAVE to be Obito himself,  or is the body/Part of the body enough for a win etc.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 20, 2012)

eepdoodle said:


> Huh? The theory is that Tobi = Obito, not Tobi = parts of Obito.
> 
> If he?s some other guy that cannibalized the kid for upgrades I don?t see how that qualifies, unless Obito?s consciousness/memories/personality lives on in some way.



Different opinions I guess, I just thought about neither of us should have the upper advantage. But whatever TS wants I'll take that bet, let's see if he agree *X Itachi X* idea about giving $100 to someone trustworthy. Or we will take the simple way by trusting each one.


----------



## Jiraiya4Life (Jul 20, 2012)

*What Tobi "Cannot Part With"...*

I was re-reading the recent chapter and I noticed something. You see, as of now, Tobi could leave once the Juubi is revived and just cast the infinite tsukuyomi, HOWEVER, as we all know this happened...


After Tobi blocks Naruto's rasengan he mutters to himself, *"**There's something I cannot part with**"*. Obviously, Kishi wants Tobi VS Naruto to happen but *WHAT IS TOBI'S MOTIVATION?*

Well, if we ASSUME Tobi=Obito _(Yes, I know it's difficult to do for some)_ than could it be that *Tobi plans on taking back his Sharingan from Kakashi?*

This could be total ass-pull on my part, but I want to know what you all think!


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 20, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> DNA is a tricky subject actually,  as it's tossed around in this manga so much with Yamato, Hashirama, Madara etc.  Yet it doesn't 'make them' the person who's DNA they stole,   So i suppose it's down to you two to decide when it comes to DNA itself and how it's implemented.



Exactly. Identical twins have identical DNA, but they?re not identical people.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jul 20, 2012)

After what he said to Kakashi is the newest chapter, I am REALLY beginning to think he is Obito.


*Spoiler*: __ 



OMG NO PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!! I REVEALED NOTHING!!


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 20, 2012)

- If it turns out to be someone else using obito's body while they retain their own personality then you win. Minimum requirement for 'Obitos body' being the head or, if not the head then a significant portion of the rest of his body. 

- If someone used Obito's body (or large percentage of) but used their own or a different person's head you also win. But I doubt this'll ever happen. 

- If it's his eye, something superficial like his hair or face, or just some random DNA that grant space-time powers then I win.

for the money issue there are three options:

1) no thrid party involved and the loser just pays when the bet is due
2) third party keeps both our $100 until bet is settled
3) third party keeps a portion of our money (like $50 from each) until bet is settled then it's up to us to pay the remaining portion of the 100.

I'm more comfortable with 1 then 3 then 2. Not a big fan of giving some random stranger 100 dollars now when it could be months before his identity is revealed. How about we keep it as 1) just now until nearer the time? So when we think the reveal is imminent we can decide if we want someone to hold the money for us. At the end of the day, if we're capable of giving the money to a third person not involved in the bet then I think we can be trusted to give the money to the person actually involved in the bet.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 20, 2012)

lucid1 said:


> If it turns out to be someone else using obito's body while they retain their own personality then you win. Minimum requirement for 'Obitos body' being the head or, if not the head then a significant portion of the rest of his body.
> 
> If someone used Obito's body (or large percentage of) but used their own or a different person's head you also win. But I doubt this'll ever happen.
> 
> If it's his eye, something superficial like his hair or face, or just some random DNA that grant space-time powers then I win.



Well I take that bet.

I also prefer the option 1, so either of us will pay $100 when the time comes. Will we fix the signature like you suggested?

edit:
I also agree that we may change and take the option 2 instead. Let's say we just go for 1st option for now.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 20, 2012)

Well then according to Lucid:

He wins if:
It's merely Obito's eye being used (As we would not refer to Danzo as Shisui)
It's someone completely different

He looses if:
It's Obito.
It's Obito's Body.
It's Obito reincarnated.
It's Someone else's body with Obito's soul
It's Someone else's soul with Obito's body.

What about someone else entirely with Obito's DNA/ Obito's face on them like Madara? It wouldn't be Obito, Nor would it be his body - Just a portion of it.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 20, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> 1. Why does everyone say that only a year seperates Kakashi Gaiden and the Kyuubi Attack? Was this stated somewhere? As far as I can tell, it could be as many as 5 (probably less though). Someone enlighten me, please.



Basic Maths.

Obito was 13 years old at the time of his death.
Kakashi is 29-30.
Thus Gaiden took place 16-17 years ago.
Naruto's birth took place....well at his birth thus 15-16 years.

Anyway:
I'm not the biggest Tobito supporter though there is something that always struck me as odd when I read Gaiden and upon seeing not Tobi but Zetsu.
Bottom left:
this
Look familiar?


----------



## Mateush (Jul 20, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Well then according to Lucid:
> 
> He wins if:
> It's merely Obito's eye being used (As we would not refer to Danzo as Shisui)
> ...



Yup it seems like that. This gonna be fun, even if I'm sure that I'll lose


----------



## Sareth (Jul 20, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Well then according to Lucid:
> 
> He wins if:
> It's merely Obito's eye being used (As we would not refer to Danzo as Shisui)
> ...


That counts as Obito's body. I mean, we already know that a large portion of Tobi's body is made out of Zetsu goo, so his face will do.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 20, 2012)

Meh.I'm probably one of the few who thinks Rin is alive anyway.

Anway:
Tobi who had no qualms about killing a freshly born Naruto is pissed off cause of Rin?

Well even IF he is Obito, that would make him a majorly terrible villain.....


----------



## OmegaPirate2 (Jul 20, 2012)

I originally thought it was Obito because he knew Kakashi somewhat close, but Obito seemed too good to do anything like all this, and he says Kakashi has lived a life of regret or something along those lines, but Obito wouldn't really know that about Kakashi. Also he knew Guy has a habit of forgetting names so he knows him too, which Obito probably wouldn't have.


----------



## Last Rose of Summer (Jul 20, 2012)

Thank you for this thread: it made me realize something I didn't think of. If Tobi is Obito and his S/T jutsu is MS tech, then Tobi should have been blind on his Sharingan eye for the longest of time, because he uses his S/T ninjutsu since 16 years (see: fight with Minato). 

And Kakashi got nearly blind from Kamui after couple of uses during Part 2 and time-skip training, so: during 3 years max of his MS usage.

Also I doubt Tobi wants to exchange his Rinnegan to Kakashi's fatigued and half-blind Sharingan.


----------



## Palta (Jul 20, 2012)

Tobi is a nobody. He is from Kingdom Hearts.


----------



## Velocity (Jul 20, 2012)

I think he meant the Mugen Tsukuyomi plan. Out of everything we know about Tobi, his utter devotion to completing that plan is unerring. Whoever he really is, he lives only to see the world under his spell and clearly will not let Naruto stop him.


----------



## Jay. (Jul 20, 2012)

> So, I don't think that this is at all a coincidence. There is also some Japanese mythology that strongly supports Tobi being Obito. As we know how Kishi bases a great deal of the manga on Japanese mythology. But I'm too lazy to post it right now.



Elaborate my son


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 20, 2012)

And how do we know you are 100% reliable with the payment??


----------



## dream (Jul 20, 2012)

The last time I took a forum bet I lost, not taking another one.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 20, 2012)

Eternal Goob said:


> The last time I took a forum bet I lost, not taking another one.



What was the bet?.


----------



## Chibason (Jul 20, 2012)

The thing he refuses to give up is his one of a kind battle helmet...


----------



## Madai (Jul 20, 2012)

*Obito was Evil All Along*

This thread is to explore an underexplored possibility:  That Obito was _evil all along_.  I know it's an unpopular position to take, *I myself don't believe it*.  I felt like engaging in some devil's advocacy and Karl Rove-level spin, for entertainment.

You can, of course, interpret all of Obito's actions as having the best of intentions.  That's easy.  I'm doing the hard part-- coming up with the evil flipside.

Consider this:


Over 70% of people look at this and the first thing they THINK they see is a duck.
But consider the* bias*.  BEAKS stick straight out, ears do not.  Rotate that image 45-75 degrees clockwise...


Had the test been presented as shown, I suspect the % of people seeing duck first would drop substantially.

So, instead of seeing the duck and leaving it at that, let's change the angle and try our best to see that rabbit.  Down the rabbit hole we go...

*1. Successful Villians Make friends and Influence people!*
Our dissection begins where Obito "ends":
Link removed

Obito's last thoughts... touching... or are they?
Link removed

Orochimaru maintained his friendship with Jiraiya *for decades* before finally bringing his evil plans to fruition.

Why?  Simple.  Keeping up appearances.  Networking before your "dramatic reveal as villian" is a wise career move.  A quick look at most villians shows networking pays.  Oro reaped gains from manipulating Anko, working with Danzo, et cetera.  Those relationships begain before Oro left the village.

The villians that start with the treachery young die young, even if they survive long enough to join the evil organization bent on world takeover run by the guys that know what they doing when it comes to being evil.


*2.  Here, take this gift my extended family will kill you for possessing.*
continuing backwards.
I can't have the satisfaction of kicking your ass myself, Kakashi.  But I can make sure you die young too.  Even if my family doesn't kill you, you'll wind up on the bingo books and everyone will want to hunt you down to pluck out this eye I am giving to you... out of "generosity".

_If I was:
a. dying
b. hated someone
c. had a sharingan_

I'd totally give them my sharingan.

*3.  Stay calm... I can do this!*
Link removed
Link removed

We are at first glance, to believe Obito intends to attempt a foolhardy solo rescue of Rin... because dying before you can even activate your family superpower is so useful and stuff.  Note, even with Obito's THOUGHT BUBBLES was have no confirmation his true plan is to rescue Rin the straightfoward way.

What was he planning instead?  Well, let's see.  He has detailed information on the most feared ninja in Konoha, his mentor Minato, just committed a gigantic act of insubordination by decking his commanding officer, Kakashi.  Is he about to do a rescue attempt, or, more likely, switch sides and betray the village?

*4. "Try to understand him, even if just a little"*
Step one: get dirt
Link removed
Play the sympathy gambit with Minato, see if he lets slip any good psychological dirt on Kakashi.  Watch an episode of South Park where Cartman is openly manipulating his mother. "Human CentIpad" is a good one.  Imagine Obito with Cartman's voice:
"I get it now, mommy! The f-word is a no-no word!"
"*I* understand the importance of teamwork, but Kakashi blah blah blah"

Step two:  punch kakashi in face
Link removed

Step three: mind-screw Kakashi by bringing up his daddy issues!
Link removed

_Very "understanding"._

*5.  Old Lady my friggen ass!*
Link removed

Obito lives in a HIDDEN NINJA VILLAGE.  Any "old lady with luggage" that needs to be "shown the way" is not an innocent tourist.  _*She's an intruder, and that luggage is full of explosive tags!*_

As far as lies go, this one isn't even being used right.  Obito is fucking it up worse than Amber Milt, a very stupid plagarist Fox "News" hasn't fired yet.

If you're going to lie, use the correct lie at the correct time!

But hey, practice makes perfect.  This is a manipulator in training.  Some lies... are too obvious.  Practice lying long enough, you'll learn how to lie correctly and fool people.
---------------------------------
I hope you enjoyed the read.  Any other examples of Obito's evil??


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jul 20, 2012)

Chibason said:


> The thing he refuses to give up is his one of a kind battle helmet...



THE HELMET IS FABULOUS!


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 20, 2012)

Pure evil!!!!

OBITO YOU BASTARD!!!


----------



## Jay. (Jul 20, 2012)

Nice, nice


would  only troll the fuck out of kakashi. all the habits he got are basically influenced by the death of obito.


to maintain that and shit obito shouldn't be evil from the beginning


he shoulda turned evil


----------



## Ghost (Jul 20, 2012)

Obito... you friend.


----------



## Rios (Jul 20, 2012)

Madara would be proud.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 20, 2012)

eepdoodle said:


> We don?t really know for certain Tobi is an Uchiha. Transplanting eyes doesn?t appear to be a very difficult task in this story. It?s likely that he is, but no guarantee that his identity is contingent on that.



We know he's Uchiha because his eye is not wrapped and deactivated when he was just Tobi.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 20, 2012)

We don't know how Rin died.  He may have no beef with Kakashi but just the ninja system that caused Rin to die, wars etc.  It's not like he wasn't crushed by 4k pounds of rock by an enemy soldier as well.   That's if he's Obito of course.

I mean, Kabuto is evil because he killed his mom.

Sasuke is evil for dumb reason.

Oro is evil because his parents died.

Nagato is evil because Yahiko died.

Sasori was evil because his parents died.

Itachi was evil because he was really good...

Do we really need to question motives for evil in this manga?


----------



## Rain (Jul 20, 2012)

5-star thread right there.


----------



## TJFuZioN (Jul 20, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> Basic Maths.
> 
> Obito was 13 years old at the time of his death.
> Kakashi is 29-30.
> ...



Thanks for answering, but that's precisely my question: How do we know Obito was 13? I mean, Kakashi was a Chuunin at like 8 (or something like that). Wouldn't his teamates likely have been much older than him? There should at least be some notable discrepancy between Kakashi and Obito's age (I know he doesn't look it, but Itachi has proven that Kishi isn't always good at "drawing the right ages"). Again, these are my personal estimations. If the manga specifically states something to the contrary, I'll gladly accept it.

As for your link:
I'm not sure I follow. I haven't actually read the Gaiden all the way through since it first came out, but are you saying that the ninja they're fighting is/resembles Zetsu??


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

fukkengan said:


> I dont think you read what I say or you are trying to take my words out of context. As long as the identy is important plotwise, or for the characters it would be wise to hide it.
> 
> I said this when I told you about Pain's identity.


What you said doesn't makes sense. Pain was different. We weren't supposed to wonder his identity, just what he looked like, it's not as if Kishi was mindfucking us over him like he is with Tobi. Tobi needs to be someone we've seen before. And he is. Just wait and you'll see. It would be absolutely stupid for him to be a new character.



Jay. said:


> Elaborate my son





> --------------Mythology in Japan-----------------
> First I'll present an overview of what some of you may know, as we will need it for further investigation, il'll keep it short, so bear with me:
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Stormcloak (Jul 20, 2012)

obito would be the biggest dick then


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 20, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> We know he's Uchiha because his eye is not wrapped and deactivated when he was just Tobi.



This is going to sound like a stretch . . . and that?s because it is 

Nagato?s rinnegan, we?ve been led to believe, is not originally his. We?ve seen him activate and deactivate it. So we ?know? not all doujutsu transplants behave the same way.

What I?m suggesting isn?t completely groundless, just highly unlikely given what we?ve seen up ?til now. Tobi is more than likely an Uchiha, but it?s not a 100% foregone conclusion. That?s all I?m saying.


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 20, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Well I take that bet.
> 
> I also prefer the option 1, so either of us will pay $100 when the time comes. Will we fix the signature like you suggested?
> 
> ...





I'll put something in my sig today or tomorrow. You seem like a nice person so it's a shame you now have to represent tobitards worldwide. All tobito believers, start pouring your spiritual energy into Mateush now. All your reputations are now on the line (and soon will belong to me mwahaha).


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 20, 2012)

eepdoodle said:


> This is going to sound like a stretch . . . and that?s because it is
> 
> Nagato?s rinnegan, we?ve been led to believe, is not originally his. We?ve seen him activate and deactivate it. So we ?know? not all doujutsu transplants behave the same way.
> 
> What I?m suggesting isn?t completely groundless, just highly unlikely given what we?ve seen up ?til now. Tobi is more than likely an Uchiha, but it?s not a 100% foregone conclusion. That?s all I?m saying.



Nagato's eyes are on 100% when shown.  Only as a kid his eyes were hidden by hair.  

But we know sharingans do not deactivate if they're not in Uchiha and give constant drain.


----------



## Easley (Jul 20, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> We know he's Uchiha because his eye is not wrapped and deactivated when he was just Tobi.


Have we ever seen Tobi deactivate his sharingan? I don't recall. If anything, that hints at him NOT being Uchiha. He'd be like Kakashi with an implanted eye.


----------



## Blur (Jul 20, 2012)

OP, are you one of those who like to wear tinfoil hats? 
Great theory nontheless.


----------



## Mortan (Jul 20, 2012)

I think Tobi could be Obito since Kakashi got his Sharingan from Obito. Kakashi MS technique _Kamui_ and Tobi's dimension abilities share similar traits... Combined with what has been said before Obito being Tobi's real identity is my best guess.


----------



## dream (Jul 20, 2012)

Convincing argument.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 20, 2012)

^That wouldn't be Obito though. That would mean Tobi is a walking corpse and senju goop, with a powerful mind. Or rather in the words of Tsunade; "an ideal" a living one. It could make sense I guess, Tobi and Kabuto have been fighting a war using corpses after all. Tobi turning out to be a corpse with the 'ideal' mind is very plausible.

I like that theory a lot better then the average Obito theory. Because that would mean Tobi's literally a dead man aplified, with 'the ideal mind'. But even then, Tobi's personality seems inferior to that of Madara's in a way. What I mean is that Madara is confident and cocky in his speech, whereas Tobi is hesitant at times and cautious. Might be because Tobi considers himself below Madara.


----------



## NO (Jul 20, 2012)

See this, Nobito fans?! That's called a real theory.


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What you said doesn't makes sense. Pain was different. We weren't supposed to wonder his identity, just what he looked like, it's not as if Kishi was mindfucking us over him like he is with Tobi. Tobi needs to be someone we've seen before. And he is. Just wait and you'll see. It would be absolutely stupid for him to be a new character.



 I dont know if you are joking or not. There was a whole mission about finding who Pain was, Jiraiya sacrificed himself to find out.


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 20, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Nagato's eyes are on 100% when shown.  Only as a kid his eyes were hidden by hair.
> 
> But we know sharingans do not deactivate if they're not in Uchiha and give constant drain.



Well, you?re right on that. I have zero panels showing him out of rinnegan. My mistake entirely.


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

fukkengan said:


> I dont know if you are joking or not. There was a whole mission about finding who Pain was, Jiraiya sacrificed himself to find out.


Again, you are missing the point. Pain's identity hadn't mindfucked us to the extent that Tobi's has. Pain wasn't meant to mindfuck the fans. We weren't meant to think it was a known character. Tobi's identity however, after being hidden so long, needs to fulfill both. Kishi is not going to have it be a new character twice. Especially since Tobi is a whole different story that Pain. 

I've already provided evidence above for why Obito makes the most sense to be Tobi and to be the final villain. People ignore what they can't provide an answer for.


----------



## Jay. (Jul 20, 2012)

So if Obito is not Tobi is the FC gonna get shut down?


It's his body


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Again, you are missing the point. Pain's identity hadn't mindfucked us to the extent that Tobi's has. Pain wasn't meant to mindfuck the fans. We weren't meant to think it was a known character. Tobi's identity however, after being hidden so long, needs to fulfill both. Kishi is not going to have it be a new character twice. Especially since Tobi is a whole different story that Pain.
> 
> I've already provided evidence above for why Obito makes the most sense to be Tobi and to be the final villain. People ignore what they can't provide an answer for.



 No, Sasuke would make more sense to be final Villain. 

 Back in your posts you justifies Naruto's Father identity by saying the looks provided the evidence needed to assume he was an "existant character". 

 So if right now, you say the case is totally different, then dont use examples you will eventually discard.


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 20, 2012)

Right after that, he says “I will not let you touch the mazou!” Naruto had just taken a run at it. Seemed to me like that’s what he’s referring to.


----------



## Easley (Jul 20, 2012)

It's an odd place for that line, in between Naruto threatening to bash in his mask, and Tobi not letting him touch the Mazou. You'd think it refers to one of them. I'd lol if he did mean his 'helmet'.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 20, 2012)

i think he was referring to his mask. he doesnt want to part with his mask (he wants to keep his identity secret)

or gedo. because if he parts with it, the statue would be destroyed


----------



## Superstars (Jul 20, 2012)

Tobi saying "There's something I cannot part with.." was responding to Naruto's statement about breaking his mask. Tobi was talking about his mask.


----------



## Summers (Jul 20, 2012)

Superstars said:


> Tobi with "There's something I cannot part with.." was responding to Naruto's response about breaking his mask. Tobi was talking about his mask.



Thinks so as well. That mask is a representation of his nothingness.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 20, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> Thanks for answering, but that's precisely my question: How do we know Obito was 13? I mean, Kakashi was a Chuunin at like 8 (or something like that). Wouldn't his teamates likely have been much older than him? There should at least be some notable discrepancy between Kakashi and Obito's age (I know he doesn't look it, but Itachi has proven that Kishi isn't always good at "drawing the right ages"). Again, these are my personal estimations. If the manga specifically states something to the contrary, I'll gladly accept it.
> 
> As for your link:
> I'm not sure I follow. I haven't actually read the Gaiden all the way through since it first came out, but are you saying that the ninja they're fighting is/resembles Zetsu??



You're welcome.
Second Databook Page 42-43.


I'm saying it's odd that we got Obito said to be Tobi.
Meanwhile during Gaiden Miharu (Ninja in Panel) is using the same Jutsu as Zetsu even making the "zuzuzuzuzu" sound.


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

Jay. said:


> So if Obito is not Tobi is the FC gonna get shut down?
> 
> 
> It's his body


I'm assuming you didn't read what I quoted.



fukkengan said:


> No, Sasuke would make more sense to be final Villain.
> 
> Back in your posts you justifies Naruto's Father identity by saying the looks provided the evidence needed to assume he was an "existant character".
> 
> So if right now, you say the case is totally different, then dont use examples you will eventually discard.


Sasuke isn't exactly final villain. I'm talking about a "villain" villain. Either way, FV or not, my post still stands for how Obito fits as Tobi and as the main villain of the series MAIN, not FINAL. Everything else you said was a lack of comprehension of what I said.


----------



## Jay. (Jul 20, 2012)

Nah. I don't read posts from other people longer than 3 sentences


----------



## NO (Jul 20, 2012)

Superstars said:


> Tobi saying "There's something I cannot part with.." was responding to Naruto's statement about breaking his mask. Tobi was talking about his mask.


Except we speak English and that doesn't make sense in English.


----------



## Udontard4ever (Jul 20, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Everyone in this manga has a dark side. Konohamaru's grandfather and dad both died. It's only a matter of time



his grandfather and uncle died

tobi's his dad


----------



## son_michael (Jul 20, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> You're welcome.
> Second Databook Page 42-43.
> 
> 
> ...



Its not strange at all. Zetsu is a ninja from the grass country and that's where they were fighting. Makes sense that ninja they were fighting would know the same techniques.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 20, 2012)

*holes to tobiShisui theory*

anyone know all the holes to this theory? i wana see what the chances are of him being tobi


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 20, 2012)

son_michael said:


> Its not strange at all. Zetsu is a ninja from the grass country and that's where they were fighting. Makes sense that ninja they were fighting would know the same techniques.



That's most likely retconned. And the Ninjas they were fighting were Rock shinobi.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 20, 2012)

son_michael said:


> Its not strange at all. Zetsu is a ninja from the grass country and that's where they were fighting. Makes sense that ninja they were fighting would know the same techniques.



Yeah but he was from Iwagakure.
That's the point.
And Zetsu is the sole.....being(?) who aside from Mahiru has shown to be able to use this technique.Again it even has the same sounds.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 20, 2012)

Tobimaru


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 20, 2012)

damn yo, nobody knows shit


----------



## emilbus (Jul 20, 2012)

It looks more more and more like Tobi  is indeed Obito. Maybe when obito was crushe did by those boulders he felt like... "why did I give him my eye?" and now he wants revenge for them having left him for dead. Who knows maybe Obito teleported out of the land of stone and met zetsu.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 20, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> That's most likely retconned. And the Ninjas they were fighting were Rock shinobi.



I suppose that could have been retconned, maybe that was just a ruse not to make the rest of Akutsuki suspicious. In reality he probably is just a lab experiment. 


Isn't the hidden rock village  located in grass country?








Scarlet Plague said:


> Yeah but he was from Iwagakure.
> That's the point.
> And Zetsu is the sole.....being(?) who aside from Mahiru has shown to be able to use this technique.Again it even has the same sounds.




assuming zetsu wans't really a ninja of the grass or rock w/e then maybe that guy was a zetsu clone before they were mass produced? It would be an interesting twist to reveal that rock guy to actually be a zetsu clone


----------



## HK-47 (Jul 20, 2012)

That would probably perpetuate the (correct) stereotype that Uchiha are conniving, two-faced, ingenious bastards.


----------



## KingIceCold (Jul 20, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Why else would Kakashi be there? Its a plot device. Kakashi didn't even take part againts Pain when Naruto fought him, and Tobi seems to know everything about Kakashi. His Kamui, his whole life, and now he also knows Gai. Its pretty obvious its him.
> 
> Madara is elsewhere, and no one else knows Kakashi & Gai, not Madara who was long dead.



Obito is linked. But his age, how was he old enough to give Nagato the Rinnegan when he was a kid when Nagato was a grown up?


----------



## Ferno (Jul 20, 2012)

In his encounter with Tobi, Itachi would've recognised Shisui's voice?


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 20, 2012)

tobi changed his voice before. and we know yamato modified his voice too to sound like sasori. anything else?


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

Shisui's death was very short before the Massacre. Shisui could not have grown his hair to Madara length in such a short time. And, Itachi would've known if it was Shisui. 

Shisui also looked around Itachi's age. He could not be old enough to be Tobi. And, as far as we know, Shisui has not had any disasters happen to him to give him those marks either. And, what would his motive be? Why would he give his remaining eye to Itachi if he was already evil and Tobi? 

Also, when Tobi fought Minato, he already had Zetsu goo. So, that was before Shisui's body got fucked up. And, I seriously doubt Shisui could have been that tall and had that deep a voice when he fought Minato. Not to mention his corpse was found drowned in the Nakana River. 

And, a well renowned ninja like Shisui could not have been manipulating Yagura for so long without anyone noticing his absence. 

There's too much things that would have to be super elaborately explained. To the point where it's just overkill and is too much to inhale. 

Of course, Kishi could make it Shisui and prove me wrong by explaining his backstory in a very logical and entertaining manner, which seems almost impossible, but hey, this is Kishi, you never know.

But, as the theory stands right now, it's not very plausible.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 20, 2012)

son_michael said:


> I suppose that could have been retconned, maybe that was just a ruse not to make the rest of Akutsuki suspicious. In reality he probably is just a lab experiment.
> 
> 
> Isn't the hidden rock village  located in grass country?
> ...



Nope.The Grass is found between the Earth and Fire.Next to Ame and Taki.


Possible.
Especially since Miharu used Clones as well.
In any case:
Miharus fighting style has a resemblance to Zetsu.
Incidentally it was Obito who nearly got killed by him.
I wouldn't exclude that there is a connection somehow.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 20, 2012)

lucid1 said:


> I'll put something in my sig today or tomorrow. You seem like a nice person so it's a shame you now have to represent tobitards worldwide. All tobito believers, start pouring your spiritual energy into Mateush now. All your reputations are now on the line (and soon will belong to me mwahaha).





Muhahaha. Well, we'll know soon enough


----------



## Mantux31 (Jul 20, 2012)

Shisui was itachi friend.
He suicided.
Itachi went to Tobi.
Itachi knew Tobis identity.
It wasn't Shisui


----------



## subzero0204 (Jul 20, 2012)

looks nothing like Tobi ? , we don't know what tobi looks like . Do we really know that nawaki died if his body was unrecognizable ? Either orichimaru took his body in a damaged state or it was never him in the first place , what better way to get some of the first dna then his grandson?


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 20, 2012)

Easley said:


> Have we ever seen Tobi deactivate his sharingan? I don't recall. If anything, that hints at him NOT being Uchiha. He'd be like Kakashi with an implanted eye.



When he was Tobi his eye was never show but if he had a sharingan visible I think people would have said something.  Don't sharingan's have a light red glow to them?  

Since he's come out the close he hasn't turned them off. But if he wasn't Uchiha he would have a drain.


----------



## MrCatalyst (Jul 20, 2012)

5yrs old Shisui took on Minato, controlled Kurama and knew how to break the barrier made by Anbu + take them out.


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Sasuke isn't exactly final villain. I'm talking about a "villain" villain. Either way, FV or not, my post still stands for how Obito fits as Tobi and as the main villain of the series MAIN, not FINAL. Everything else you said was a lack of comprehension of what I said.



 lol what? 

 Sasuke is a greater antagonist to Naruto than Tobi. If Tobi was Obito he would fit better to Kakashi than to Naruto, dont you think?

 Then why did you mention Minato?


----------



## wstickman (Jul 20, 2012)

Shisui being too young to fight Minato


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

MrCatalyst said:


> 5yrs old Shisui took on Minato, controlled Kurama and knew how to break the seal made by Anbu + take them out.


Well, we don't know EXACTLY how old Shisui was. Although, I still doubt he would have been old enough. He'd probably be 10 at the max. So, either way, the theory is implausible.


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 20, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Since he's come out the close he hasn't turned them off. But if he wasn't Uchiha he would have a drain.



This is where I bring up Nagato again. Uzumaki/Senju exception?


----------



## wstickman (Jul 20, 2012)

The main think screwing up Obito being Tobi is that Tobi fought Minato when Obito would've been too young and weak.


----------



## NarutoxKakashi (Jul 20, 2012)

*The REAL Reason Obito Can't be Tobi: Disprovable Proof REVEALED*

The biggest reason Obito isn't Tobi is Obito never had evil goals. In fact, Obito stood for the exact opposite. 

Kishimoto, through the voice of Itachi, has stated that characters' personalities never change through life. In other words, characters paths have been set since the beginning of this manga, and they will follow that same paths until death (perhaps one of the few exceptions to this will be Sasuke when Naruto changes his path). Another way of saying it: every character in this manga has pursued the same goals since their creation (exceptions occur when Naruto talk-no-jutsus people).

So, unless Kishi setup Obito from the start to pursue something as sinister as the Moon's Eye Plan, it would make no sense for him to pursue it. Hypothetically, let's say I'm wrong. Let's say he did survive the boulders that crushed his body, that the death of Rin pissed him off enough to go down the path of total destruction of the ninja world, and that he was able to acquire all the abilities/powers in the short time span between his "death" and the night of the Kyuubi attack. Does that really sound reasonable? 

Thoughts and opinions are welcome!


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 20, 2012)

Right, because characters have never changed ever before in this series or turned evil. (Sasuke, Gaara, Nagato)


----------



## ironblade_x1 (Jul 20, 2012)

But Tobi's goal is world peace using a global and eternal genjutsu.

Or, at the very least, you can't call his intentions evil when we know so little about him.

And if you're going to cite all the naughty things he did, Nagato was the naughtiest of the naughtiest before he hit the rewind button. And he was also (technically) going for peace, in his own way.

Not saying he's Obito, but Tobi isn't an evil incarnate, as far as we know.


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 20, 2012)

NarutoxKakashi said:


> The biggest reason Obito isn't Tobi is Obito never had evil goals. In fact, Obito stood for the exact opposite.



Adult Nagato sought to bring peace in a way his child self would have found abominable. Why couldn?t the same be for Tobi?

I doubt Tobi thinks of himself as evil


----------



## NarutoxKakashi (Jul 20, 2012)

All of these characters have had the same roles since their creation.

Sasuke was setup to pursue revenge since the beginning. He has pursued that path since the beginning.

Gaara was motivated by hatred since his creation, then was talk-no-jutsu'd.

Nagato was always motivated by protecting his loved ones and ending the cycle of hatred. Tobi manipulated his purpose, and Naruto talk-no-jutsu'd him.


----------



## egressmadara (Jul 20, 2012)

Kishi's trolling XDXDXDXD


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 20, 2012)

NarutoxKakashi said:


> All of these characters have had the same roles since their creation.
> 
> Sasuke was setup to pursue revenge since the beginning. He has pursued that path since the beginning.
> 
> ...



These are only things you can say in retrospect.

Who's to say in the future it won't turn out that Obito was set up from the beginning to be the harbinger of disaster Naruto was destined to thwart.


----------



## egressmadara (Jul 20, 2012)

Obito is dead. Also couldn't have fought Hashirama ()
Shisui has no eyes. Also couldn't have fought Hashirama ()


----------



## NarutoxKakashi (Jul 20, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> These are only things you can say in retrospect.
> 
> Who's to say in the future it won't turn out that Obito was set up from the beginning to be the harbinger of disaster Naruto was destined to thwart.



That would require Kishimoto to retcon the manga. The Kakashi Gaiden showed his path to be quite different from this.


----------



## ShadowsX (Jul 20, 2012)

Elder son, Madara and Tobi the three of them wanted peace but they thought that Human free will caused nothing but war so rather waiting for human to change they will force them too so obito personalty never changed his ways changed and to reach his goal he will do anything and for personality never changed all I'll say is TNJ killed your theory.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 20, 2012)

NarutoxKakashi said:


> That would require Kishimoto to retcon the manga. The Kakashi Gaiden showed his path to be quite different from this.



Only because you make assumptions about what that path is.

Would anyone have thought that Sasuke would become what he is now even a few years ago?

What about Gaara? His character transformation has been one of the most drastic in the entire manga.


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 20, 2012)

NarutoxKakashi said:


> Nagato was always motivated by protecting his loved ones and ending the cycle of hatred. Tobi manipulated his purpose, and Naruto talk-no-jutsu'd him.



So nobody?s path can be changed . . . until someone talks you into changing it? I?m not getting your point.


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

egressmadara said:


> Obito is dead. Also couldn't have fought Hashirama ()
> Shisui has no eyes. Also couldn't have fought Hashirama ()


Obito has nothing to do with this thread. And Tobi never fought Hashirama. -__-


----------



## NarutoxKakashi (Jul 20, 2012)

What I'm getting at is Kishimoto has setup certain roles/paths for every character since their introductions. Wouldn't Obito going from wanting to protect his friends to wanting to put everyone into a permanent genjutsu be a massive change for his role?


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 20, 2012)

Obito's last words before the second cave-in covered him, was of regret.

He didn't want to die. He wanted to spend more time with Kakashi and Co.

I'm 100% sure Tobi = Obito was the orginal direction the story was going.

Obito 'died' in the Grass Country.

Zetsu was originally a Grass shinobi.

Now, things have been retconned a bit on the surface. Zetsu is no longer a Grass shinobi, he's at least partially made up of Senju DNA.

Given that in the movie, the Tobi appears to be Shisui and Obito, I no longer consider it possible.

It's going to be a Nagato situation. Prior to the mask coming off and revealing who he is, we'll get 4 or 5 flashback chapters of a brand-new character being shoe-horned into the Manga as an important character for our main-characters (Kakashi and Gai, atleast) and the characters will be shocked at who it is.

It's just the sort of thing Kishimoto would do. He's not good a subtle hints. Think Naruto's father, Pains real identity, Itachi turning good, etc.


----------



## Saizo sarutobi (Jul 20, 2012)

i think most people dont think Tobi is Obito,but rather someone using Obito's body/sharingan


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 20, 2012)

Saizo sarutobi said:


> i think most people dont think Tobi is Obito,but rather someone using Obito's body/sharingan



That's the safest bet.

An even safer bet is WhiteZetsu copied Madara, and that's who Tobi is.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 20, 2012)

The problem with Shisui is that he had his right eye snatch by Danzo.  Yet Tobi has the S/T  eye before and after that.


----------



## Phemt (Jul 20, 2012)

Yes, Kakashi being present is already a good enough reason to affirm with a certain amount of sureness that Tobi is Obito.

Why? Because this happens to be the 3rd meeting were both of them had some kind of interaction.

1) Kakashi is the first to notice Tobi's sharingan. Or rather, Tobi makes sure that Kakashi notices his sharingan. 



2) Tobi tells Kakashi not to bother with a technique like Kamui because it has no effect on him. Of course it doesn't, it's his own eye and he knows what his eye abilities consist of.



3) Self-explanatory. 



and 4) The close-ups on Tobi's eye. The moments of silence between Kakashi & Tobi. The emphasis on both of their faces.



I can tell just by that panel alone that these 2 have had a past together. It's so evident.

Denial comes with lack of understanding, so let Kishi explain it, then see if it makes sense or not.

Don't make it any more complicated than it is just because you don't want to accept it. It's that simple. All the evidence is right in front of you.

When you first saw Tobi introduced in the manga and you thought of Obito, you were right. 

But you got lost down the road.  



Win.


----------



## eepdoodle (Jul 20, 2012)

NarutoxKakashi said:


> What I'm getting at is Kishimoto has setup certain roles/paths for every character since their introductions. Wouldn't Obito going from wanting to protect his friends to wanting to put everyone into a permanent genjutsu be a massive change for his role?



Kakashi believed nothing was more important than the mission. That not following the rules made you scum. Look at him now. He doesn?t hold the same philosophy at all. Why couldn?t Obito have had a similar change of ideology?


----------



## DremolitoX (Jul 20, 2012)

shisui has curly hair
shisui was too young for the minato fight


----------



## Trix13 (Jul 20, 2012)

*buzzer* OP IS WRONG!

A victim of war is Obito. What does Obito want to do? Stop wars from happening... Simple reasoning, like the fact that Minato wasn't Naruto's da.... Oh wait, kishi isn't that dim to make him his dad... I mean come on... LOL


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 20, 2012)

My Favorite was in Part 1 Neji Vs Naruto.

Neji is going on and on about destiny. Naruto basically says you can change your destiny or it doesn't exist.

Then Part 2 is all about destiny. Naruto's father is a Hokage. Naruto himself is the destined child, etc.

I still find that hilarious.

Kishimoto's writing is all over the place.


----------



## Trix13 (Jul 20, 2012)

*Reasoning why Obito = Tobi*

1. Let's start with the location of the Sharigan. His right eye, is the sharigan, while his left eye, up until now has been concealed. Who knows, he might've had an eye, but AS FAR AS WE KNOW, he didn't, till he got the sage of the rinnengan. 

1A. The eye, Kakashi holds from his dear friend Obito, is in the left socket... Now... Why would this be? could it just be kishi pulling the leg? lol

2. Hair. "But mister, hair is justt hair, many people got the same hairdo. *BUZZER* WRONG! Hair usually, sticks the same. I mean, think about it. Same hair colors, blend in with the "relation" to a "clan". Blonde heads? Um, naruto is related to the senju's and well Tsunade has blonde hair... Red hair? Hmmm... This is a trait of the Uzimaki. Tobi's hairstyle? looks a lil familar don't it? BUt he grew his hair out long, when he met the mizukage. 

People can't have identity crisis "Madara Uchiha"?!

3. Grudges against the Uchiha. Until his eye was open, that nobody saw, but Kakkashi and that nobody character Rin. Until then everyone thought he was weak, and not worthy of the "Uchiha" name. While this is scraps, this could've been the reason why he helped Itachi destroy the clan.

4. Victim of war. During the great 2nd Ninja war, Obito was injured, presumed dead. Why? Because of war. And like his new puppet, he wanted to "prevent" wars from happening, and feeling "pain". Let's look back at pain. What were his reasons? Similar isn't it? Tell me I'm wrong....

5. Jump to the present... "You don't remember faces, so what's the point?" "Kakkashi, you always open your mouth so easily no wonder you live a life of regrets..." ...If this isn't straight telling you this is Obito. Please step away from the manga Naruto, and wait for the Naruto and Sasuke match up against Madara!


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 20, 2012)

How does any of that prove it's Obito?

He had another Sharingan behind his mask, by the way. He used it for Inzangi against Konan when she owned him and his Uchiha haxs saved him.

How would Obito's hair, grown longer (It would take many years to go from that short hair to that long hair) look exactly like Madara's?

How come he speaks as if he's been around for ages?

There is more evidence against it being Obito than it being Obito.

Most of the Evidence for Tobi=Obito is all psychical (Sharingan, Hair etc.) but that's it. His persona, knowledge, power are all vastly different, and don't coincide with a boy who was at near death a year before attacking Minato as a grown man.


----------



## egressmadara (Jul 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Obito has nothing to do with this thread. And Tobi never fought Hashirama. -__-


Tch. Tobi says otherwise.


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

MrCatalyst said:


> 5yrs old Shisui took on Minato, controlled Kurama and knew how to break the barrier made by Anbu + take them out.


Lol. Dat Shisui.



Raventhal said:


> The problem with Shisui is that he had his right eye snatch by Danzo.  Yet Tobi has the S/T  eye before and after that.


This, also. I forgot about this one. (I noticed T-Bag hasn't replied yet. Finally, something he can't come up with bullshit for.)



egressmadara said:


> Tch. Tobi says otherwise.


Tobi was claiming to be Madara when he said that. Do you believe his claim of being Madara as well?


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 20, 2012)

How many sharingan panels do Kakashi/Tobi have?


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 20, 2012)

MrCatalyst said:


> 5yrs old Shisui took on Minato, controlled Kurama and knew how to break the barrier made by Anbu + take them out.



what makes you think he was 5? he was older than itachi. itachi looked up to him like an older brother. hell he could have been as old as kakashi today.



Raventhal said:


> The problem with Shisui is that he had his right eye snatch by Danzo.  Yet Tobi has the S/T  eye before and after that.



probably replaced his eyes


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Shisui's death was very short before the Massacre. Shisui could not have grown his hair to Madara length in such a short time. And, Itachi would've known if it was Shisui.


probably had a wig to look like madara 



> Shisui also looked around Itachi's age. He could not be old enough to be Tobi. And, as far as we know, Shisui has not had any disasters happen to him to give him those marks either. And, what would his motive be? Why would he give his remaining eye to Itachi if he was already evil and Tobi?



shisui was not itachi's age. itachi looked up to him sort of like an idol



> Also, when Tobi fought Minato, he already had Zetsu goo. So, that was before Shisui's body got fucked up. And, I seriously doubt Shisui could have been that tall and had that deep a voice when he fought Minato. Not to mention his corpse was found drowned in the Nakana River.


it was probably a special clone. and tobi changed his voice before. yamato did too, so that shouldnt be a problem for shisui



> And, a well renowned ninja like Shisui could not have been manipulating Yagura for so long without anyone noticing his absence.


he doesn't have to be present for his genjutsu to continue



> There's too much things that would have to be super elaborately explained. To the point where it's just overkill and is too much to inhale.


like the tobito theory



> Of course, Kishi could make it Shisui and prove me wrong by explaining his backstory in a very logical and entertaining manner, which seems almost impossible, but hey, this is Kishi, you never know.
> 
> But, as the theory stands right now, it's not very plausible.



lolololol im just messin dog, im being like you, coming up with an excuse for everything. those are actually some very good points (except for shisui's age) that's actually how you sound  when you support that theory of yours lmao

i created the thread to see what his chances were. its not that i ever thought he's shisui.

anyway thanks, +reps


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> probably had a wig to look like madara
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. Now that you mention it, I do sound kind of crazy when I argue my theory like that. I still believe in it, but I just need to debate it in a more mature way...


----------



## Dragash1 (Jul 20, 2012)

When danzou fight he called those eyes Shisui eyes. instead of saying my eyes if it was him. Also pretty sure they said they found his corse.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jul 20, 2012)

Ah, I remember when everyone thought Tobi was Madara simply because he said he was. 

We'll just have to wait and see who is behind the mask. I'm betting Obito. His recent comment towards Kakashi really proved it for me.


----------



## YelloWhite (Jul 20, 2012)

I thought that Shisui had one eye already taken out by Danzo, and then gave his other to Itachi. And shortly after that Itachi went to see Madara, in which Itachi had said that he had know about his presence for a while.


----------



## General Mael Radec (Jul 20, 2012)

why would shisui gives his eye to itachi to then plot against konoha?

how did shisui get so old?


----------



## Terra Branford (Jul 20, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Right, because characters have never changed ever before in this series or turned evil. (Sasuke, Gaara, Nagato)



This. But mostly,



> But Tobi's goal is world peace using a global and eternal genjutsu.



this.


----------



## General Mael Radec (Jul 20, 2012)

He made that rock fall on him to "fake" his death and make us suffer countless threads of obito is tobi NOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! Obito you bastard!!!!


----------



## Anonymouse (Jul 20, 2012)

Trix13 said:


> 1. Let's start with the location of the Sharigan. His right eye, is the sharigan, while his left eye, up until now has been concealed. Who knows, he might've had an eye, but AS FAR AS WE KNOW, he didn't, till he got the sage of the rinnengan.



ORLY



I stopped readin' your post after that. These Tobito threads are becoming an eyesore at this point.


----------



## Kasai (Jul 20, 2012)

momo313 said:


> You fools over complicate a manga written for 14 yr olds.
> 
> TOBI = OBITO.
> 
> END OF STORY.



Basically this. 

This is a shounen manga, a work in a genre that prides itself on appealing to young boys. Nothing's more appealing to that age-group than forming a hypothesis that's later validated by the author. "Look at me, I'm so smart, I figured out that Yondaime was Naruto's dad long before Kishimoto revealed it!"

The sad truth is that there's been so much build-up and groundwork laid in for the Obito theory by Kishi that any other option would be lackluster by this point. Even Kagami is too little, too late. Obito's got a gaiden, a history with Minato, the "never found the body" convenience, Tobi's eye juxtaposition with Kakashi and the similarity of their space-time jutsu, even that blasted non-canonical movie... Obito has all that riding behind him. The only way to match a Tobi = Obito payoff would be to have an equally "profound" reveal in the way of a less overt set-up with an equal amount of build-up/groundwork... and that simply doesn't exist. Your only viable options are Izuna and Kagami (lol Shisui) and they simply lack the chemistry with current events that'd make them relevant. 

Many a NF member balked at the idea that Yondaime Hokage could be Naruto's father based on the similarity of their hair... but it happened anyway. Many balked at the idea that Orochimaru'd be back... but that's happened, too. Most of the Library and Telegram usership seem to have deluded themselves into thinking that Naruto is more than some Japanese comic for little kids. It's not. Barring complete asspulls, when you're shown what appears to be a spade, nine times out of ten it's actually a spade (inb4 genjutsu, Tobi lying about being Madara, etc. ... you people know what I mean).

As for inconsistencies... shounen as a whole just doesn't give a darn. So what if it doesn't make sense that Tobi seemed too tall to be a fourteen year old? That's an artistic detail that's completely irrelevant to the dramatic narrative. Go ask the Colosseum how large Gamaken and Part II Gamakichi are supposed to be in relation to Gamabunta and shinobi in general, I fuckin' dare you.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 20, 2012)

yeah the points you bring up really make the theory unlikely. but it bothered me when kabuto said he couldnt find shisui's body, and smirked.

kabuto was sarcastic like that too with the  6th coffin, and people were actually right when they said it had to be madara in it. this is why it got me thinking


----------



## Terra Branford (Jul 20, 2012)

It will be the "Tobi = Madara" debate all over again.

@Sutol:

Nice post, Sutol.


----------



## General Mael Radec (Jul 20, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> yeah the points you bring up really make the theory unlikely. but it bothered me when kabuto said he couldnt find shisui's body, and smirked.
> 
> kabuto was sarcastic like that too with the  6th coffin, and people were actually right when they said it had to be madara in it. this is why it got me thinking



shisui entusted itachi to protect the village and then left to erase himself from existance leaving no corpse to be ever found. Kabuto just couldnt find his rotting body.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 20, 2012)

im in no way a tobito supporter, but thats not a good reason. itachi said that if you fixate on yourself, you'll become isolated and become just like madara

u nvr know if obito started out good, but got lost in the way and turned the way he is (implying he's tobi)


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 20, 2012)

General Mael Radec said:


> shisui entusted itachi to protect the village and then left to erase himself from existance leaving no corpse to be ever found. Kabuto just couldnt find his rotting body.



but the thing is his body was actually found by the uchiha police force. unless kishi retconned that..


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

Don't believe this for a second but this was hilarious! XD +rep and 5 stars!


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

Another thing that points to Obito is that him and Tobi have the exact same eye shape. Kishi is always pays very close attention to eyeshape. It's a very defining trait for determining which character is which if they are, in silhouette. Tobi and Obito having the exact same eyeshape is a strong indicator that they are the same person.​
The one problem I see with the Tobito theory however, is that when the Bloody Mist era began, Obito would have been 16. It seems kind of odd. Well, then again, Gaara became Kazekage at 16... yeah. And Naruto will probably become Hokage by 16 at the end of the manga. Obito in a sense becoming Mizukage could be another possible parallel between him and Naruto.​


----------



## Revolution (Jul 20, 2012)

Trying to explain a rejected Tobi theory while using South Park as an example


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

Jay. said:


> Nah. I don't read posts from other people longer than 3 sentences


Wow, you're lazy, lol. But seriously, you'll never find good evidence for theories if you keep that up.



subzero0204 said:


> looks nothing like Tobi ? , we don't know what tobi looks like . Do we really know that nawaki died if his body was unrecognizable ? Either orichimaru took his body in a damaged state or it was never him in the first place , what better way to get some of the first dna then his grandson?


What we've seen of Tobi's face looks nothing like Nawaki's. We have actually seen about 77% of Tobi's face, so it's safe to say whether or not he looks like someone based on eyeshape, eyebrows, and eyelids. By the way, Nawaki's eyelids are barely visible and can't be seen. Tobi's however, are very distinct. There's also the hair color and the fact that Nawaki wouldn't be old enough. He'd at best be around 50.



fukkengan said:


> lol what?
> 
> Sasuke is a greater antagonist to Naruto than Tobi. If Tobi was Obito he would fit better to Kakashi than to Naruto, dont you think?
> 
> Then why did you mention Minato?


What I meant was that Sasuke is likely to get redeemed. Also, Sasuke is not a better antagonist to Naruto. He's just a douchebag friend gone batshit. Tobi, however, is the exact opposite of Naruto. he is meant to be the MAIN antagonist. He killed Naruto's fucking parents. 

And you clearly misunderstood the whole purpose of me mentioning Minato. Pay closer attention to what you read.



wstickman said:


> The main think screwing up Obito being Tobi is that Tobi fought Minato when Obito would've been too young and weak.


Age isn't a problem. At 15-16, Obito could have definitely been tall enough. As for skill, all he used were eye techniques, which aren't too hard to master, especially if they're your own. And chains, which don't look to difficult to use.


----------



## Wendson (Jul 20, 2012)

Obito is pure evil!!!
How could you do that to Kakashi?!
He didn't deserve that...


----------



## Dragash1 (Jul 20, 2012)

Itachi hided his body i quess to let him rest in peace since danzou/oro/tobi would go after it for his eye.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 20, 2012)

Dragash1 said:


> Itachi hided his body i quess to let him rest in peace since danzou/oro/tobi would go after it for his eye.



he didnt hide his body because the body was actually found in the river


----------



## Dragash1 (Jul 20, 2012)

Im taking about after he killed everyone. 
Woudnt make sence that kabuto wouldnt find his body if it had been buried in konoha. Thats why im saying Itachi had something to do with it


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

Agreed except for the sharingan part. Tobi was shown to have two sharingans in his fight with Konan. But it's far more likely that it was implanted, and that's why he hid it.


----------



## Easley (Jul 20, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> When he was Tobi his eye was never show but if he had a sharingan visible I think people would have said something.  Don't sharingan's have a light red glow to them?
> 
> Since he's come out the close he hasn't turned them off. But if he wasn't Uchiha he would have a drain.


So we can't be sure he ever deactivates it. Kishi always kept the 'hole' in shadow to not spoil the reveal.

As for drain, this might simply be plot convenience - no need for Kishi to mention it. Kakashi covers his sharingan, maybe Tobi's mask depth has a similar effect? Who knows. A man who possesses a huge eye collection - perfect for implants - is suspicious to me. Whoever people think he is could be totally wrong.

Other characters, _and the readers_, not seeing his eye is very contrived. One of those things that seems stupid later.



			
				Terra Branford said:
			
		

> It will be the "Tobi = Madara" debate all over again.


Ah, but Tobi claimed to be Madara, he made no such claim about Obito. Tobito fans are jumping to this conclusion based on him knowing Kakashi and Gai. Is Obito the only named character they are likely to recognize? If Naruto bashes the mask in, the reward of identifying Tobi should be his.


----------



## mlc818 (Jul 20, 2012)

NarutoxKakashi said:


> What I'm getting at is Kishimoto has setup certain roles/paths for every character since their introductions. Wouldn't Obito going from wanting to protect his friends to wanting to put everyone into a permanent genjutsu be a massive change for his role?



I'm sure someone else has already mentioned this, but a permanent genjutsu to create eternal peace would by definition be designed to "protect" the world from itself.  Complete safety due to the loss of all choice... Tobi's stated goal doesn't necessarily conflict with positive (though warped and foolish) intentions.

There are plenty of real world examples of people making horrible mistakes because they believed their motivations and methods were pure and necessary, so there's no reason to claim that Tobi couldn't be doing the same. Just like Nagato was, prior to Naruto's intervention.


----------



## Dragash1 (Jul 20, 2012)

Didnt Kishi say something about Kakashi's year. Enough said.


----------



## NW (Jul 20, 2012)

Sutol has a good point. Couldn't have said it better my self, friend.


----------



## Easley (Jul 20, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> Ah, I remember when everyone thought Tobi was Madara simply because he said he was.


It wasn't just that. Other characters referred to him as Madara... Chapter titles called him Madara... He summoned Kyuubi, which is something only Madara has done (according to Jiraiya). It makes me wonder how he convinced Itachi. Wear a strange mask and other people believe whatever you say? 

Tobi must have a strong connection to Madara - the Moon's Eye plan was his. The only problem is that Madara died before Obito was born.


----------



## Trix13 (Jul 20, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> ORLY
> 
> 
> 
> I stopped readin' your post after that. These Tobito threads are becoming an eyesore at this point.



*presses buzzer* WRONG! 

"Tobi" fought konan in chapter 509... Before this Tobi had already got the sharigans from Danzo... Yea... you should probably go back and read this manga again... *dismisses "ORLY"*


----------



## MinatoEMS (Jul 20, 2012)

Kyrie Eleison said:


> Perhaps, what's going to be funny is trying to explain how he became 5-7 inches taller and went from being a pathetic little brat who could barely awaken his sharingan shortly before his death to being a highly talented shinobi and manipulator who had mastered the sharingan enough to fight Minato and control a tailed beast in the time span of less than a year and a half.
> 
> Even if it is Obito it's going to be hard to explain his rapid growth over such a short period of time...especially considering that he wasn't anything special by Uchiha standards...



He was made out of zetsu goo, that can easily make him taller. especially if he had a cloned body of madara

---
As for the people saying he went toe to toe with minato, Where? All I saw was minato out doing him at every chance, when he tried to kill naruto, explosive tag naruto, when they had their speed blitz and minato won.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jul 21, 2012)

Easley said:


> Ah, but Tobi claimed to be Madara, he made no such claim about Obito. Tobito fans are jumping to this conclusion based on him knowing Kakashi and Gai. Is Obito the only named character they are likely to recognize? If Naruto bashes the mask in, the reward of identifying Tobi should be his.



I meant the debate about who he really is, not necessarily about the situation for who the character claims to be.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jul 21, 2012)

Easley said:


> It wasn't just that. Other characters referred to him as Madara... Chapter titles called him Madara... He summoned Kyuubi, which is something only Madara has done (according to Jiraiya). It makes me wonder how he convinced Itachi. Wear a strange mask and other people believe whatever you say?
> 
> Tobi must have a strong connection to Madara - the Moon's Eye plan was his. The only problem is that Madara died before Obito was born.



Still, from what I've read when it was still going on, it was the fact that he said he was Madara that convinced so many people.

Just because Madara died before Obito was born doesn't mean knowledge pertaining to Madara was inaccessible. There could be a way, or a source to tell all about Madara. And if it is Obito, maybe he found something out after Kakashi left him behind (again, assuming he is still alive and is Tobi).


----------



## Heise (Jul 21, 2012)

Yeah. I know you guys read a lot of theories. I admit some were pure sh*t and stuff... and I'm no saying I'm right or anything... I'm just telling you guys what I think, and if you have something to add or something to prove me wrong, please, share with us, and by share I don't mean calling me stupid (even if I may be) or saying that all I just said was sh*t and etc.

Anyway, let's get started.
1) First of all let's start with: Obito's death was never shown. Yeah, we all saw him left to die and rot underneath that rock, but we never actually saw him dead.

2) You have to admit that Kakashi's MS and Tobi's MS have pretty much the same ability, though Kakashi's MS is weaker and in my opinion it's 'cause he's not one Uchiha and he's not related to Obito in any way.

3) Tobi's body is artificial. We saw that when he ripped his arm off while fighting those Danzou's guys (sorry, not good with names =) ) and we saw it when he fought against minato. (before he saw Amaterasu last pic) And this fight leads to my 4th point.

4) I don't know about you guys but I think Tobi looks younger when he fought Minato... and a little bit more of an amateur compared to foes like Minato. I'd say he was a teenager when he fought Minato and about 11~12 years later Naruto's story begins. If you think about it Kakashi was about 15~16 years old when the attack on Konoha by Kurama happened, which would pretty much be the same age as Obito. If you're gonna use his height or voice (for those who watch the anime[ I don't, too many fillers...]) I must remind you that Naruto has 16 on Shippuden and his height is pretty much the same as adults.

5) Well, weakest of my thoughts but even his hair and face structure (as seen when his mask was broken or when he took part of it off while talking to sasuke) is very similar to Obito's.

6) Finally, we all know he is not Madara, since Madara is dead and Tobi is alive and well... you can't resurrect someone that is alive right?

7) His Moon Sharingan Plan looks like what a twisted Obito would do. And well, Obito did kinda hated all that war and was stuck in it. Not to say he was stuck underneath a rock for some time (if he survived) and we don't have a single clue of what might have happened to him after that... and for those who say "Obito was an all good kind of kid, he wouldn't do this kind of stuff" have you ever heard that hell is full of good intentions? That's pretty much what the Moon Sharingan plan is, a plan that wants to bring world piece and stuff but in a really wrong and twisted way.

I might have something else to say but I don't remember right now. Also, I apologize if I made too many english mistakes, it's not my native language =)

If you're a hater, please just hate, don't comment this thread =)

UPDATE:
8) When Kakashi says that he wants to act before the 10 tails is revived Tobi says "Kakashi... you always open your mouth so easily. It's no wonder you've lived a life of regret." as if he already knew Kakashi. Plus when Guy asks him who he is he implies that they already know him by saying "you don't remember faces so what point is there in telling you?"


----------



## MinatoEMS (Jul 21, 2012)

jacamo said:


> with speculation and conjecture, only some of them can be explained
> 
> but do you really think Kishi is going to spend the time and effort to explain all of these plotholes? the fans will demand it, too much that dont make sense
> 
> ...



I have an answer..The real madara gave him the rinnegan, then died.

Tobi has madara's memories more than likely as well as his own. Which is why tobi knows what he knows. Because lets face it. No person that knows kakashi well enough that was alive during that time would know some of  the things tobi knows if not for Madara's memories.


----------



## Easley (Jul 21, 2012)

Terra Branford said:


> Just because Madara died before Obito was born doesn't mean knowledge pertaining to Madara was inaccessible. There could be a way, or a source to tell all about Madara. And if it is Obito, maybe he found something out after Kakashi left him behind (again, assuming he is still alive and is Tobi).


Tobi has personal information about Madara, especially Izuna - in fact, he wrote the book on him. He also reveres Hashirama, like Madara does. Too intimate merely for an act.

The obvious conclusion? Tobi met the real Madara! He got this info directly from him. Maybe they plotted everything together - being partners in crime makes more sense than Tobi showing up years later. Could he have betrayed Madara and took the Moon's Eye plan for himself? Possible, but I won't speculate on that. Trying to figure out his identity is hard enough.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jul 21, 2012)

Okay, but that doesn't suggest that Tobi can't be Obito. 

I actually think he just read into it, or learned from an ultra secret source or something along those lines.


----------



## fukkengan (Jul 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What I meant was that Sasuke is likely to get redeemed. Also, Sasuke is not a better antagonist to Naruto. He's just a douchebag friend gone batshit. Tobi, however, is the exact opposite of Naruto. he is meant to be the MAIN antagonist. He killed Naruto's fucking parents.



 I thought you said Tobi was like Naruto not the opposite. 

 Sasuke in the other hand is being portrayed as the perfect enemy of Naruto destined by fate, Tobi whom you see as Naruto counterpart is also convinced of the potential in Naruto and Sasuke as rivals, they are descendants of a family that divided itself creating a lineage of hate. The story of Sasuke and Naruto is completly influenced by that circle of endless struggle. 

 Tobi himself wants Sasuke and Naruto to be part of that hyped fight that have been foreshadowed through the manga from the beggining. Being Naruto's first enemy and the person who currently molds his decisions, Sasuke gots more reasons to be FV due to his importance in the life of the protagonist.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Jul 21, 2012)

please no tobito theory


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 21, 2012)

Seto Kaiba said:


> The "Tobito" theory has more holes in it than  swiss cheese, the timeline of events, his physical stats, etc. They  just don't fit.


If you search a little harder, you will find that they  have already been accounted for. 

Since you've raised multiply points, I find it prudent to dissect your post:


> I think it's hilarious you Tobito supporters are so adamant on  dismissing other far more plausible assumptions, and ultimately really  have nothing to fit Obito into this whole thing.


More plausible  assumptions? Like what?


> Tobi has clearly been around for over 40 years, if his relationship with Nagato is any indication


It's not clear at all, as Nagato's exact relationship with Tobi and Madara remains unclear. What's also unclear is whether the man currently behind the mask has been around for over 40 years.


> Not to mention, *his entire face is intact*...


Like how his arms are intact? 

Besides, he appears to have scars on the right side of his face. It's possible that it hasn't always been intact.


> Honestly it'd make perfect sense if he was someone like Kagami,  IE, a "nobody".


I really have a couple of issues with that:

1. If being a nobody is your criterion, then Obito is the better pick.  He's just a dead,  unexceptional chuunin who was once teamed with a secondary character. It's literary common sense that Tobi should  be a "nobody" people would remember and care about. Kagami isn't such a character, unlike Obito.

2. The "nobody criterion" gives rise to the question: Is Tobi truly a  nobody, or does he simply make himself appear as one? If the latter  applies, then the aforementioned criterion is useless. 

3. If Kishimoto turned Tobi into Kagami, he would have to carry the burden of creating emotional relevance and a backstory for a character most of his readers (and possibly Naruto, Kakashi, Gai, Bee, Gyuuki, and Kurama themselves) don't give a shit about. Otherwise he would risk losing many readers. 

The Kagami theory it bears little to no literary sense.


----------



## Jikayaki (Jul 21, 2012)

son_michael said:


> and how exactly does he know anything about kakashi? You can see kakashi and gai's reactions, they were surprised. That entire page was meant to illustrate that tobi knows them.



I entirely expect Tobi to be a former Kohona ninja of the last few generations, but Obito is merely too young much less dead. This individual has to been able to have meet Madara at this point who appears to of died shortly after giving young Nagato the Rinnegan. Nagato is around Minato's generation at least and that's about the limit for Tobi in my opinion as well. Tobi merely has info on Kakashi, which wouldn't of been hard to find if he was of Kakashi's sensei's generation or older. Especially if he continued to monitor the village after his failed Kyuubi attack.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jul 21, 2012)

Don't go into the "Tobito" threads then and you won't have to see the theories.


----------



## NO (Jul 21, 2012)

Heise said:


> 4) I don't don't about you guys but I think Tobi looks younger when he fought Minato... and a little bit more of an amateur compared to foes like Minato. I'd say he was a teenager when he fought Minato and about 11~12 years later Naruto's story begins. If you think about it Kakashi was about 15~16 years old when the attack on Konoha by Kurama happened, which would pretty much be the same age as Obito. If you're gonna use his height or voice (for those who watch the anime[ I don't, too many fillers...])* I must remind you that Naruto has 16 on Shippuden and hi height is pretty much the same as adults.*



This is a really good point I never thought about. I'll be using this for my Tobito defenses now.


----------



## ~Link~ (Jul 21, 2012)

jayjay32 said:


> They want it to be...
> 
> - Madara's brother, what's his name? (this is a joke at the fact that his name was never said in the manga)
> - Zetsu Madara clone with implanted memories
> ...



Lmao interesting.


----------



## NW (Jul 21, 2012)

I would laugh my fucking ass of if that is his only motive. "Yeah, I want to resurrect a giant ten tailed god from insdide the moon, put it inside me, and make everyone my slaves because the girl I liked died."

I definitely think Obito has more of a motive than that. That could be a big part of it, Kakashi's failure to protect Rin. As it has been hinted at throughout Part II. But there has to be 1 or 2 more things. If that is his only motive, however, I'll be in a state of total and uncontrollable laughter. He's a badass character anyway, so no matter what his motive is, it won't change that. 

But I definitely believe there is something more to it than that. I guess it comes down to how well Madara(presumably) mindfucked him, and how much Obito's could take until he snapped.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Jul 21, 2012)

Doubts! simple questions
1.How did he learn space time ninjutsu which is supposed to be stronger than minato in a year or something? //only genious can do.
2. Most importantly escaping the barrier anbu and third hokage made without being detected? //only anbu like itachi can do.


----------



## egressmadara (Jul 21, 2012)

Obito = Tobi theories are rising up now that Tobi is revealed to "know" Kakashi...


----------



## son_michael (Jul 21, 2012)

Jikayaki said:


> I entirely expect Tobi to be a former Kohona ninja of the last few generations, but Obito is merely too young much less dead. This individual has to been able to have meet Madara at this point who appears to of died shortly after giving young Nagato the Rinnegan. Nagato is around Minato's generation at least and that's about the limit for Tobi in my opinion as well. Tobi merely has info on Kakashi, which wouldn't of been hard to find if he was of Kakashi's sensei's generation or older. Especially if he continued to monitor the village after his failed Kyuubi attack.



same old arguments.


Obito was never confirmed dead, kakashi thinks he died but all we saw was him being buried by rocks while he was alive.

regardless of whether obito was 14,15 or 16 there are many explanations as to why he was tall and why he could fight minato.

1. he had a growth spurt

2. Kishi was inconsistent with height portrayal.

3. Zetsu made him taller

and all the same type of answers can be said as to why he has all the knowledge  and space time mastery of his eye.



read Sutol's post and recognize that the hints and foreshadowing are everywhere. Any problems you can find with the theory will be explained/fixed/ignored.


----------



## Heise (Jul 21, 2012)

Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> Doubts! simple questions
> 1.How did he learn space time ninjutsu which is supposed to be stronger than minato in a year or something? //only genious can do.
> 2. Most importantly escaping the barrier anbu and third hokage made without being detected? //only anbu like itachi can do.



That's his MS power. he can do both with his MS.


----------



## Jikayaki (Jul 21, 2012)

son_michael said:


> same old arguments.
> 
> 
> Obito was never confirmed dead, kakashi thinks he died but all we saw was him being buried by rocks while he was alive.
> ...



Obito was all but confirmed to be died. It was a rather cliched death scene. Explain how you think Obito survived being smashed by a rock?

Zetsu isn't a unique character with an origin outside Tobi at least it doesn't seem to be the case. It heavily appears that Zetsu is an experiment with Hashirama's DNA and powers. He appears to basically be a lab rat.

The main things against Obito being Tobi don't even merely fall to the fact the Kyuubi attack happened at best one to two years after Obito's apparent death.

Call them the same old arguments if you want they still hold. Tobi had to have meet Madara. Madara himself has likely been dead at least since the third shinobi world war. *Edit** Though its likely he's been dead since the end of the second.

To be quite honest I think Obito=Tobi fans are looking for hints towards their fandom that aren't really there taking coincidences within the manga as proof.

To be honest several theories based on coincidences have been proven correct in the past, but this just doesn't seem likely at all. This merely came up because of Tobi's statements this chapter, which are far better explained outside running through hoops trying to shoehorn in Obito=Tobi.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I would laugh my fucking ass of if that is his only motive. "Yeah, I want to resurrect a giant ten tailed god from insdide the moon, put it inside me, and make everyone my slaves because the girl I liked died."



Men do stupid and illogical things for women all the time.



> I definitely think Obito has more of a motive than that. That could be a big part of it, Kakashi's failure to protect Rin. As it has been hinted at throughout Part II. But there has to be 1 or 2 more things. If that is his only motive, however, I'll be in a state of total and uncontrollable laughter. He's a badass character anyway, so no matter what his motive is, it won't change that.



But where is his grudge against Kakashi? Everytime they've met, Tobi has been almost polite to down right dismissive of Kakashi. Not angry. Same as when he attacked Minato. There was no anger. 

If Tobi was Obito and a big part of him being Tobi is Rin dying, he'd interact with both Minato and Kakashi differently.



> But I definitely believe there is something more to it than that. I guess it comes down to how well Madara(presumably) mindfucked him, and how much Obito's could take until he snapped.



Madara died shortly after awakening the Rinn'egan. Nagato's first appearance with the Rinn'egan was as a child. Nagato is older than Minato. Minato is older than Obito. It's impossible for Madara to be alive to communicate with Obito.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 21, 2012)

Jikayaki said:


> Obito was all but confirmed to be died. It was a rather cliched death scene. Explain how you think Obito survived being smashed by a rock?



Obito's last thoughts were of spending more time with his Team and not being able to confess his feelings to Rin. He didn't die accepting his death like Jirayia. He survived the first cave-in but his right side was smashed, however we saw the rock resting on his head, not caving it in. It's not only possible, but highly probable his eye survived.

The second cave-in was more like a rock-slide, burying him. They didn't recover his body because they didn't have time. Minato saved Kakashi from certain death against 10 enemies, and they were behind enemy terrority. It's highly likely Obito could have survived and was left buried in the rubble.

The question is - who saved him? The only reasonable answer is Zetsu. His connection to Tobi is significantly strong. Tobi uses the same type of material to rebuild his body that WhiteZetsu is made of.



> Zetsu isn't a unique character with an origin outside Tobi at least it doesn't seem to be the case. It heavily appears that Zetsu is an experiment with Hashirama's DNA and powers. He appears to basically be a lab rat.



We know nothing of Black Zetsu. We know White Zetsu is a clone/experiment using Hashirama DNA, but we know nothing of Black Zetsu. My theory is Black Zetsu is made of Uchiha Madara DNA. 



> The main things against Obito being Tobi don't even merely fall to the fact the Kyuubi attack happened at best one to two years after Obito's apparent death.



No one is sure when it happens. I've seen less than a year, 2 years, and even 3 years. Until someone provides a definite, or pretty close to definite timeline, this isn't a point I'm willing to take serious enough to try and refute.



> Call them the same old arguments if you want they still hold. Tobi had to have meet Madara. Madara himself has likely been dead at least since the third shinobi world war.



Work arounds plenty for that within cannon logic. Genjutsu Trap ala Itachi to Sasuke (Not meant for Obito specifically, but perhaps any Uchiha Zetsu recruits).

White Zetsu perfect copy of Madara, down to memories and knowledge.



> To be quite honest I think Obito=Tobi fans are looking for hints towards their fandom that aren't really there taking coincidences within the manga as proof.



There are enough hints to it being Obito, the problem is there are enough issues with that to leave you thinking it's impossible. The problem with that thinking is, Kishimoto is the writer, and not a good one.



> To be honest several theories based on coincidences have been proven correct in the past, but this just doesn't seem likely at all. This merely came up because of Tobi's statements this chapter, which are far better explained outside running through hoops trying to shoehorn in Obito=Tobi.



To me, it suggests that Tobi is familiar with Kakashi on a personal level, and Gai and Kakashi are familiar enough with Tobi to know who he is if his mask comes off (Or in the case of Gai, not recognize him as the joke goes)

It's not out of the realm of possibility Tobi turns out to be a random Uchiha shoe-horned into the story by Kishimoto (Pain was for instance). It wouldn't shock me at all if it turns out to be Obito's older brother who was secretly working with a Pro-Madara faction of the Uchiha, and conspired with Itachi to wipe them out to preserve his secret. Kishimoto could shoe-horn something like that in easy.

Would it be interesting enough? For me, no.

But being honest, who Tobi is, is probably the last interesting thing left to me in this manga. I don't care about Sasuke's story or where it's going. I don't care about Naruto's story or where it's going. I find the battles boring. I find the characters boring. I can't even remember the side-characters because they've been given no plot time or character development in Part 2.

Tobi is it for me, so I want it to be as interesting as possible.


----------



## jgalt7 (Jul 21, 2012)

FFS.......another one.


----------



## Jikayaki (Jul 21, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This depends on there being a Zetsu to save Obito, which is be no means likely. Black Zetsu may be White Zetsu's opposite composed of Uchiha Madara's DNA, but that hardly means his origin is different than White Zetsu.

Nothing points to Zetsu black or white predating Tobi. They are Tobi's lackeys and likely share the same origin. The likely origin right now is that they are experiments created by Tobi. 



Ichiurto said:


> No one is sure when it happens. I've seen less than a year, 2 years, and even 3 years. Until someone provides a definite, or pretty close to definite timeline, this isn't a point I'm willing to take serious enough to try and refute.



One can use Naruto's age and know facts to make fairly strong suggestions about when it happened. Definite dates however are outside what can be stated. Still we're talking about a 14 to 16 year old Obito if he had survived, which still doesn't make sense.



Ichiurto said:


> Work arounds plenty for that within cannon logic. Genjutsu Trap ala Itachi to Sasuke (Not meant for Obito specifically, but perhaps any Uchiha Zetsu recruits).
> 
> White Zetsu perfect copy of Madara, down to memories and knowledge.



This is again only could be true if Zetsu predated Tobi, which isn't by any means likely. Tobi as the mad sorcerer/scientist figure is Zetsu's likely origin at this point. 



Ichiurto said:


> There are enough hints to it being Obito, the problem is there are enough issues with that to leave you thinking it's impossible. The problem with that thinking is, Kishimoto is the writer, and not a good one.



There are coincidences that fans take as hints not so much hints that Obito is Tobi. It began with the fact Obito had the letters for Tobi. It continued because of the side of the mask the hole for Tobi's Sharingan is located. This has been the pattern for all so called hints that Obito is Tobi.



Ichiurto said:


> To me, it suggests that Tobi is familiar with Kakashi on a personal level, and Gai and Kakashi are familiar enough with Tobi to know who he is if his mask comes off (Or in the case of Gai, not recognize him as the joke goes)



It really doesn't point to so much familiarity than Tobi knowing about Kakashi and Gai to some extent. This needs not come from familiarity so much as Tobi continuing to monitor the village.



Ichiurto said:


> It's not out of the realm of possibility Tobi turns out to be a random Uchiha shoe-horned into the story by Kishimoto (Pain was for instance). It wouldn't shock me at all if it turns out to be Obito's older brother who was secretly working with a Pro-Madara faction of the Uchiha, and conspired with Itachi to wipe them out to preserve his secret. Kishimoto could shoe-horn something like that in easy. Would it be interesting enough? For me, no.



This is by far the more likely answer to Tobi's identity. Tobi is likely to be revealed to be a previously unimportant character. Many will likely take him to be a random Uchiha placed within the manga. Someone from Minato's generation or older simply is the best time frame for who Tobi is and there hasn't been much focus there outside a few characters. 



Ichiurto said:


> But being honest, who Tobi is, is probably the last interesting thing left to me in this manga. I don't care about Sasuke's story or where it's going. I don't care about Naruto's story or where it's going. I find the battles boring. I find the characters boring. I can't even remember the side-characters because they've been given no plot time or character development in Part 2. Tobi is it for me, so I want it to be as interesting as possible.



I'm sure Tobi's story will be embellished. Its very doubtful he'll remain merely a random Uchiha. Who ever Tobi is there will be backstory added before his death, but at this point if Tobi is the only interesting thing left surely there are better mangas out there.


----------



## Shiny (Jul 21, 2012)

tobito is real ok? Just because the time dont add up dont mean cant be him,kishi wont give a shit about it,he will troll hard this time


----------



## Heise (Jul 21, 2012)

egressmadara said:


> Obito = Tobi theories are rising up now that Tobi is revealed to "know" Kakashi...



Well yeah, I forgot to add that =)


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Jul 21, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> 3. If Kishimoto turned Tobi into Kagami, he would have to carry the burden of creating emotional relevance and a backstory for a character most of his readers (and possibly Naruto, Kakashi, Gai, Bee, Gyuuki, and Kurama themselves) don't give a shit about. Otherwise he would risk losing many readers.
> 
> *The Kagami theory it bears little to no literary sense.*


*LOL please tell me you're trolling.*

You just compared a skilled uchiha with fully awakened sharringan who teamed with the current higher ups and was under the 2nd hokage to a loser uchiha who got killed by a rock?

*LETS DO A THEORY FACT CHECK(LOL IT'S ALL  I COULD COME UP WITH):*

*KAGAMI UCHIHA:*

1. Teamed with hiruzen, danzo, and the current advisers of the leaf.
2. Trained by tobirama(the 2nd hokage)
3. More than likely had contact with *madara uchiha* and hashirama.
4. More than likely had contact with a young grieving(his parents) orochimaru
5. Tobi is kinda old and kagami uchiha would be too at this point.
6. Tobi clearly has vast knowledge of the leaf, it's people, and it's deep secrets. Something only an old insider could know.
7. Tobi read from the uchiha stone tablet something only uchihas of age with a fully awaken sharrigan do.
8. Notice how the higher ups in the village are from kagami's team? Remember how the uchiha were kept away from major positions of power? 
9. Kagami could be the person who came up with the idea of the uchiha coup.
10. He could be madara's cousin, son, nephew, or and uchiha who followed madara.
10. Could have been kakashi and guy's teacher at ninja school
11. Could be strong enough to fight on par with minato(just like hiruzen & danzo)
12. We don't know if he died or how long he lived after hiruzen became hokage.


*Obito uchia: *

1. The weakest uchiha in history
2. Awoke his sharringan half way before he got killed by a rock.
3. The leaf retrieves/destroys special eyes and ninjas to keep them secret.
4. No connections with the elders and knows nothing about madara or kurama
5. It's retarded for him to come back to life, sneak into the leaf, know who kurama is sealed in, take out the elite anbu, take over kurama, and finally FIGHT ON PAR WITH HIS TEACHER AND BE SURPRISED AT HIS SPEED WHEN HE ALREADY SHOULD KNOW THIS JUST 2 OR 3 YEARS LATER!!
6. *GAVE THE RINNINGAN TO NAGATO AND GAVE THE IDEA TO YAHIKO TO FORM AKATSUKI WHILE J MAN, OROCHIMARU, TSUNADE FOUGHT HANZO AND J MAN TEACHING THE RAIN CHILDREN BEFORE HE EVEN DIED OR EVEN FINISHED NINJA SCHOOL!!*
7. WAS JUST USED TO FURTHER KAKASHI'S STORY
8. WE ALL KNOW HE'S DEAD!

SMH at somebody used to further another storyline with no ties to any major players being good writing. Oh yeah, we all would love for it to be Obito. Can't wait to hear this minor side character's rise to greatness/evilness within 2 or 3 years. Kagami would be bad writing! Who wants to see an UNKNOWN uchiha who teamed up with the higher ups, lead by madara and was under the 2nd hokage. Who could have also known hashirama, orochimaru, kakashi & guy. I mean how could such character who has connections to everybody be tobi? That's just bad writing right there

*somebody pleas sticky this*

fuck it!!! I'm gonna come up with a crazy theory right now that's a better fit than obito being tobi crazy theory.

TOBI IS NONE OTHER THAN

*Spoiler*: __ 





All this time we thought he was just a construction worker. But really he was a secret none violent low level uchiha building his own personal secret entrance to each village. Nobody ever seemed to notice him since he didn't belong to any village. This made him angry and this led him to think of himself as "no one". Madara approached him in the past and from then on the plan was set in motion ha ha ha haaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!


----------



## insane111 (Jul 21, 2012)

Tobi is just a stalker who gathers info to mind rape people, the movie chapter pretty much showed that


----------



## Saizo sarutobi (Jul 21, 2012)

Tobi is Obito's body with Madara memories


----------



## Kyrie Eleison (Jul 21, 2012)

Trix13 said:


> *presses buzzer* WRONG!
> 
> "Tobi" fought konan in chapter 509... Before this Tobi had already got the sharigans from Danzo... Yea... you should probably go back and read this manga again... *dismisses "ORLY"*



Err...what? I sincerely hope you're just trying to bait people with a comment like this...

Tobi has been shown to have a collection of sharingans that he collected from the massacre. Incidentally, all of the sharingans that Danzo had (except for Shisui's, which was destroyed/sealed by the time the reverse four symbols sealing technique activated) were permanently sealed through Danzo using Izanagi multiple times.

As for why Tobi typically kept his left eye covered, who knows. It could be that it was little more than a generic sharingan that was being kept as a fail safe so that it could be sacrificed for Izanagi if the situation demanded it. If something like that were the case then he stood to gain more by not showing it and keeping it as an ace up his sleeve.


----------



## Shrike (Jul 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Age isn't a problem. At 15-16, Obito could have definitely been tall enough. As for skill, all he used were eye techniques, which aren't too hard to master, especially if they're your own. And chains, which don't look to difficult to use.



Yeah, except, you know, he controlled the fucking Kyuubi with his Sharingan and generally seemed to know a LOT.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Jul 21, 2012)

Why did Tobi left side looked like black zetsu when he used izanagi in the fight with konan?
He was to be madara but kishi? no wonder you made naruto to reach 590+ chapters.
troll


----------



## PassionateStoic (Jul 21, 2012)

There is no concrete evidence that he's Obito, but the connections are so obvious that either he is Obito or Kishi is being intentionally deceptive. If you are still denying a Tobi-Obito connection at this point I don't know what to say.


----------



## Easley (Jul 21, 2012)

PassionateStoic said:


> There is no concrete evidence that he's Obito, but the connections are so obvious that either he is Obito or Kishi is being intentionally deceptive. *If you are still denying a Tobi-Obito connection at this point I don't know what to say.*


You said it yourself: "there is no concrete evidence". That's enough reason to deny a connection.

Nothing specifically pointed to Obito in this chapter. In fact, Tobi could be anyone from Konoha. Why wouldn't he know about Kakashi and Gai?


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 21, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:
			
		

> LETS DO A THEORY FACT CHECK(LOL IT'S ALL I COULD COME UP WITH):
> 
> KAGAMI UCHIHA:
> 
> ...



69.
NOBODY GIVES A FLYING FUCK ABOUT UCHIHA KAGAMI. 90% OF THE FANBASE WOULDN'T RECOGNIZE THE CHARACTER'S NAME OR FACE.

That's more important than all the worthless shit you posted. 

Kishimoto cannot write anything without his bosses at shounen jump saying it's okay for him to do. If Kishimoto walked into a board meeting with WSJ people, and told them he was going to reveal Tobi as Uchiha Kagami, first they'd ask who the fuck that is, and then they'd laugh at him and send him back to his studio to write something that's not retarded and won't lose him readers and $$.

Also great job posting a big "Debunking" post when you don't have a fucking clue what the theory is even about. Great waste of time. 



			
				Seto Kaiba said:
			
		

> Honestly it'd make perfect sense if he was someone like Kagami, IE, a "nobody".



That would make perfect sense if Kishimoto wanted to create the biggest dud in shocking revelation history, and lose lots of money and followers to his series.

Otherwise, no, that would make zero fucking sense.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 21, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> *LOL please tell me you're trolling.*


Worry not. I never troll.


> You just compared a skilled uchiha with fully awakened sharringan who teamed with the current higher ups and was under the 2nd hokage to a loser uchiha who got killed by a rock?


No. I compared Obito's relevance and impact to Kagami's relevance and impact.


> *LETS DO A THEORY FACT CHECK(LOL IT'S ALL  I COULD COME UP WITH):*


I'm afraid none of those addresses the problem that Kagami would have no impact as a literary instrument if he was Tobi. 


> *Obito uchia: *
> 
> 1. The weakest uchiha in history
> 2. Awoke his sharringan half way before he got killed by a rock.


And Naruto was considered the most incompetent of his batch.

Obito's strength the last time we saw him is irrelevant. 


> 3. The leaf retrieves/destroys special eyes and ninjas to keep them secret.
> 4. No connections with the elders and knows nothing about madara or kurama
> 5. It's retarded for him to come back to life, sneak into the leaf, know  who kurama is sealed in, take out the elite anbu, take over kurama, and  finally FIGHT ON PAR WITH HIS TEACHER AND BE SURPRISED AT HIS SPEED  WHEN HE ALREADY SHOULD KNOW THIS JUST 2 OR 3 YEARS LATER!!


Uh, unless someone happened to discover and help him. You can't deny this possibility just because you think it's "retarded."


> Kagami would be bad writing! Who wants to see an UNKNOWN uchiha who  teamed up with the higher ups, lead by madara and was under the 2nd  hokage. Who could have also known hashirama, orochimaru, kakashi &  guy. I mean how could such character who has connections to everybody be  tobi? That's just bad writing right there


Indeed it is. I for one wouldn't want to be spoon-fed with all of that info this late in the series. 

You might as well say that a hypothetical Uchiha was under the 2nd, could have known Kakashi or Gai or Bee, could have sparred with the Senju, could have been some close relative of a high-profile Uchiha, etc. And would this Uchiha have any impact on the reader? Would this story sell? No. The only difference between this hypothetical Uchiha and Kagami is that we know the latter's name and face.

Also, there are so many "could's" and "could have's" under your "theory fact" checklist on Kagami. I question why such elements seem to have been conveniently omitted from Obito's list.


----------



## Jikayaki (Jul 21, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> If you search a little harder, you will find that they  have already been accounted for.
> 
> Since you've raised multiply points, I find it prudent to dissect your post:
> More plausible  assumptions? Like what?
> ...



The description of Obito=Tobi theory having more holes than swiss cheese is rather correct. There aren't hints towards Obito=Tobi merely coincidences fans of a practically minor background character utilized to create one of the most odd identity theories for a masked villain I've ever read.

Any assumptions and speculation by Obito=Tobi fans comes down to ever increasingly complex explanations to stop the theory from self collapsing under its own absurdity. No harm meant, but that is merely what Tobito theories are.

The Kagami theory makes far more sense than Obito theories on multiple fronts. The only real downside is the lack of audience investment with the character.


He's from a generation in which he likely could of meet both Uchiha Madara and Senju Hashirama

Literally he could of easily of experienced the events Tobi talks about first hand.

He was in a position to explain Tobi's knowledge regarding Kohona's inner workings being on the Second Hokage's team

Once Tobi's identity is revealed I expect to see a large amount of out cry on these boards. I find it unlikely that Tobi's true identity is a character we know a lot about or currently has much of an invested audience if at all outside the Tobi persona.


----------



## handsock (Jul 21, 2012)

Velocity said:


> Normally I don't actually give a damn about this sort of thing, but a lot of people are up in arms about this particular theory - whether they're bullishly supporting it or determined to ignore it. Yet there is one major flaw in the entire Tobito theory and it lies within "time".
> 
> Tobi attacked Konohagakure less than a year after Obito died. Kakashi was 14 when Obito died, correct? Tobi attacked Konohagakure on the day Naruto was born, 16 years ago. Kakashi is 29-30, therefore making him around 14 the day the Nine Tails attacked. Ergo, less than a year passed between the Kakashi Gaiden arc and the time Tobi attacked Konohagakure.
> 
> ...



It's called "He sucked himself into that weird place he goes, which probably has no time at all and trained for years"?


----------



## handsock (Jul 21, 2012)

*Does time progress in Tobi's eyeball dimension?*

Just wondering. Could be a way for Obito to have grown so much when he faced Minato.  Kind of like the hyperbolic time chamber, or that worm tunnel in bleach.


----------



## jacamo (Jul 21, 2012)

im still sticking with Uchiha Kagami being Obito's father

its plausible Kagami would have been Anbu

its plausible Kagami would have known Kakashi and Gai


----------



## Shattering (Jul 21, 2012)

LOL thx man this is the first time I see the Tobi = Obito as a real possibility.


----------



## handsock (Jul 21, 2012)

Shattering said:


> LOL thx man this is the first time I see the Tobi = Obito as a real possibility.



Well, let's say he somehow awakened it and sucked himself into eyeball dimension when he was under the boulder. Passes out, rematerialises near and old fart Madara. Poof.


----------



## Mugivara (Jul 21, 2012)

Since I will add some more extra proofs to my theory after long long time, I hope you don't mind if I resurrect this old topic..

Before read this explanation read my theory.. I think we're quite close to see who Tobi is....

Here please check carefully what I'll add now:



> *Danzo is dead? isn't he?*
> 
> 
> 
> * Don't consider someone dead only because he seems dead *





> *Is it possible for a clon to see flashbacks? I'm asking this because Danzo had one before get killed himself, so he can't be a clone?*
> 
> 
> 
> *For sure... Yes....*





> *Let's check what the hell Danzo's real aim is:*
> 
> 
> 
> *And this one is the purpose of our famous Tobi... Familiar?*:





> * Lately, we always hear people saying "Hell, I'm no one!" Please look what Sai says about himself as a Root member, as a person whose personality was shaped by Danzo!! Simply, he says that he is...*
> 
> 
> 
> *Hell what! Sai is Tobi? Nope... Tobi is the one who shaped Sai's personality!*





> *Do you remember why people called Hidden Mist willage as Bloody Mist?*
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...





> *Who is Kabuto? *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Jikayaki (Jul 21, 2012)

We really don't know if Tobi's dimension jutsu is anything special outside being a containment jutsu. Rule of thumb in regards to the whole Tobito angle if you have to create outrageous and continually more complex explanations for a theory to stay above water its time to abandon it.


----------



## handsock (Jul 21, 2012)

Jikayaki said:


> We really don't know if Tobi's dimension jutsu is anything special outside being a containment jutsu. Rule of thumb in regards to the whole Tobito angle if you have to create outrageous and continually more complex explanations for a theory to stay above water its time to abandon it.



I support any and all theories thank you very much.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 21, 2012)

How would Tobito theorists explain the bottom right panel on this page?

I'm not implying criticism per se, but I'd like to hear/read how Tobito theorists explain that panel, as Tobi had no reason to lie there and Obito cannot have fought the first Hokage.


----------



## Minato4Namikaze (Jul 21, 2012)

I like your theory!


----------



## Kyrie Eleison (Jul 21, 2012)

handsock said:


> It's called "He sucked himself into that weird place he goes, which probably has no time at all and trained for years"?



It's likely a pocket dimension, but that doesn't necessarily imply that it doesn't operate on a similar timescale as the outside world. The other problem with him using a pocket dimension to train (aside from the fact that we don't know much about his little dimension) is how he would be able to heal from the life threatening injuries he suffered before his supposed death and what he would do for sustenance during his training...it doesn't do much good to have all the time in the world if you starve to death...


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 21, 2012)

That Tobi friend is not obito. But he is someone who knows people of Konoha in detail apparently. Thats how he knew about Kakashi's life of regrets and Gai's habit of forgetting faces.
So either Tobi has his own Ninja Info Cards or he is (used to be) a Konoha resident.

Ramen Guy is the most likely candidate imo, @ this point.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 21, 2012)

Scizor said:


> How would Tobito theorists explain the bottom right panel on this page?
> 
> I'm not implying criticism per se, but I'd like to hear/read how Tobito theorists explain that panel, as Tobi had no reason to lie there and Obito cannot have fought the first Hokage.



Tobi even if he isn't Obito was lying. How many panels of the real Madara do we have stating that fought Harshirama? 

Honestly I think the author's at fault for that to keep us convinced that he was Madara and the secret in the coffin in doubt.  

It's just like when Tobi keeps his goofy persona going when unnecessary.


----------



## NarutoxKakashi (Jul 21, 2012)

mlc818 said:


> I'm sure someone else has already mentioned this, but a permanent genjutsu to create eternal peace would by definition be designed to "protect" the world from itself.  Complete safety due to the loss of all choice... Tobi's stated goal doesn't necessarily conflict with positive (though warped and foolish) intentions.
> 
> *There are plenty of real world examples of people making horrible mistakes because they believed their motivations and methods were pure and necessary*, so there's no reason to claim that Tobi couldn't be doing the same. Just like Nagato was, prior to Naruto's intervention.



Exactly! But has Tobi ever believed his motivations were pure and necessary? Or has he said things in order to cover his selfish desire for power. His purpose has been to get more power, so he could dominate others. I think his true intentions are just so antithetical to Obito's. Do you guys think Rin's death would change Obito this much? I could see a VERY remote possibility that Tobi is using Obito's eye/body, but then that begs the question: who is he really?


----------



## Raiden (Jul 21, 2012)

An old face, a body that doesn't quite hold up, a hardened philosophical sense of people in the world..absolute resignation to see the good in people. That sounds a lot like the older people we have seen in the series. I'm inclined to believe that Tobi is Kagami Uchiha.

Some of the missing pieces in my view, are right in front of us as well. How did Tobi learn about the Rikudou treasures, for examples? How was Itachi able to acquire them in such a short lifetime? I think it's Kagami's knowledge of Kinkaku and Ginkaku through Tobirama that led to the presence of these weapons in the story. Otherwise, they just seem like random insertions.


----------



## MYJC (Jul 21, 2012)

Tobi being Kagami Uchiha would be the most anticlimactic reveal in the history of manga. 

Tobi being Obito would require hella, hella explaining and asspulling but at least it would be entertaining to watch Kishi try to make sense of it.


----------



## Danzio (Jul 21, 2012)

I never  believed the theory due to all that, but Kishi is constantly dropping hints that shouldn't be ignored:

-How can it be Kakashi's year when he's not even a main character/villain? Unless there are some connections between him and one of the villains, I don't see how he will be developed much further, especially when the manga is close to the end.

-We already saw a Kakashi gaiden so why is Kishi planning another one?

-Tobi knew that Kamui wouldn't work, which is odd.

-Tobi knew Kakashi lived a tough live something only an insider would know.

Anyway, it would be foolish to write him off when we are all aware of Kishi's inconsistencies.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Jul 21, 2012)

Jikayaki said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have no doubt that there are holes in the Tobito theory, but it is  fine to use coincidence-based assumptions as a remedy as long as they  fall within the realm of possibility and reason. As the case of Orochimaru's revival shows,   coincidences _could _mean something. 

One side argued that Orochimaru couldn't possibly return. The other side  came up with "complex" solutions such as the possibility of horcruxes. Some said during Kabuto's fight that the potential "ingredients"  for the horcrux (e.g., his cells in Kabuto, Anko, her cursed seal, Sasuke, etc.) were already in place. It was coincidental, but it  proved to be instrumental to Orochimaru's return.

Now, the Tobito theory seeks to modify the perceived truth that Obito was only a seemingly unexceptional secondary character who is  known to be dead. Because the  theory challenges an apparent truth, it naturally gives rise to many  holes and questions. By its own nature, it _should _appear to have holes. Even the Big Bang Theory has holes, as it challenges strong creationist beliefs and apparent truths such as the law of energy conservation. 

The Kagami theory, on the other hand, is like a blank canvas: Since we have zero knowledge on who Kagami was, we simply _paint _or _invent _his  story in a way that fits Tobi's persona. Hey, he could have been  Madara's secret apprentice; he could have been a high-profile ninja who  had strong connections with some of the forces behind the current war;  he could have become some rogue ninja whose goal was to investigate  Madara; he could have been _anyone_. 

Due to its sheer wideness and flexibility, the Kagami theory naturally  exhibits less holes than the Tobito theory. Arguing that it is the  better theory just because it has a smaller number of holes is  pointless. Also, the holes in the Tobito theory are negligible as long  as there are valid assumptions, regardless of complexity, that cover  them. I haven't encountered any hole that hasn't been covered yet.

Thus, this matter boils down to which theory would generate more  literary appeal. In this respect, the Kagami theory falls short.


----------



## Gabe (Jul 21, 2012)

maybe because how could tobi be obito if when he fought minato he looked like an adult while kakashi looked young they were the same age.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 21, 2012)

Wow, a Tobi = Obito thread in disguise >_>


----------



## hitokugutsu (Jul 21, 2012)

Still convinced its Izuna with Obito's eye

Izuna is IMO the only once credible enough with all the Uchiha intel, the statement about it being "his eyes"

Not to mention with Naruto part II being about whole "Brothers theme" I can see Izuna and Madara working together


----------



## insane111 (Jul 21, 2012)

Raiden said:


> An old face, a body that doesn't quite hold up, a hardened philosophical sense of people in the world..absolute resignation to see the good in people. That sounds a lot like the older people we have seen in the series. I'm inclined to believe that Tobi is Kagami Uchiha.
> 
> Some of the missing pieces in my view, are right in front of us as well. How did Tobi learn about the Rikudou treasures, for examples? How was Itachi able to acquire them in such a short lifetime? I think it's Kagami's knowledge of Kinkaku and Ginkaku through Tobirama that led to the presence of these weapons in the story. Otherwise, they just seem like random insertions.



If you asked a casual reader "hey, do you think Kagami could be Tobi?", they would reply with "Who?". Some random character that appeared in 1 panel shouldn't even be an option.


----------



## Scizor (Jul 21, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Tobi even if he isn't Obito was lying. How many panels of the real Madara do we have stating that fought Harshirama?
> 
> Honestly I think the author's at fault for that to keep us convinced that he was Madara and the secret in the coffin in doubt.
> 
> It's just like when Tobi keeps his goofy persona going when unnecessary.



I guess you could be right, but from the author's point of view it's kind of a weird decision as he could easily have left how he obtained it out without it being weird.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 21, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Tobi even if he isn't Obito was lying. How many panels of the real Madara do we have stating that fought Harshirama?
> 
> Honestly I think the author's at fault for that to keep us convinced that he was Madara and the secret in the coffin in doubt.
> 
> It's just like when Tobi keeps his goofy persona going when unnecessary.



I don't think so. Tobi with his goofy persona absolutely has nothing similar with it.

By that time it's obvious the author already had in his mind about Tobi and Madara, so it's not like he just forgot it or wanted write something stupid. He simply could just have left these details out or something like that. However he *still* wanted to show it soon before Edo Madara was revealed, so now it's a pretty safe bet that both Tobi and Madara have strong connections with that Hashirama blob thing, because it's obvious now Madara did indeed stole Hashirama's cells and we also have seen how Tobi can replace new body parts with help of Hashirama's cells.

That's probably exactly why the author wanted to show these things so we could figure out pretty much.


----------



## NW (Jul 21, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> Madara died shortly after awakening the Rinn'egan. Nagato's first appearance with the Rinn'egan was as a child. Nagato is older than Minato. Minato is older than Obito. It's impossible for Madara to be alive to communicate with Obito.


No, it's not impossible. I highly doubt that the Rinnegan Madara gave Nagato was his own eyes, and I have evidence to back it up. Too lazy to type it out again, but take my word for it.


----------



## Raiden (Jul 21, 2012)

It should be an option for precisely that reason. Tobirama distrusted the Uchiha, Danzo was prejudiced against them, and the Elders followed suit. Yet, there was an Uchiha on their team who hasn't been mentioned once. That's extremely suspect.

You also have to ask why did Tobirama keep that Uchiha in particular so close to him?


----------



## gjoerulv (Jul 21, 2012)

Scizor said:


> How would Tobito theorists explain the bottom right panel on this page?
> 
> I'm not implying criticism per se, but I'd like to hear/read how Tobito theorists explain that panel, as Tobi had no reason to lie there and Obito cannot have fought the first Hokage.



It kinda can't be Obito if he is telling the truth (or being truthish). Or Hasirama must have lived long Enough for Obito to fight him, in secret.
Tobi had no reason to lie here as Kabuto had already shown him his trump card.

Hell, maybe Tobi = Hasirama. 

At this point I'm open for anyone being Tobi, within a reasonable frame of course.


----------



## NW (Jul 21, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Still convinced its Izuna with Obito's eye
> 
> Izuna is IMO the only once credible enough with all the Uchiha intel, the statement about it being "his eyes"
> 
> Not to mention with Naruto part II being about whole "Brothers theme" I can see Izuna and Madara working together


I highly doubt that it's Izuna. This is because Izuna was a minor background character shown in two or three panels. There's no way we'd recognize his face behind the mask, especially if it's old and wrinkly. Hell, from what we can see of Tobi's face, he looks nothing like Izuna. How can we recognize a face that is unrecognizable?

Izuna had no lines, and his name was only mentioned in the databook, which alot of fans don't even read.

In my opinion, Tobi is Obito and his brother is Shisui. This could work and also fit with the theme. Not to mention that every major Uchiha has been brothers with another major Uchiha, all except for Obito and Shisui. This also explains how Obito could have controlled Yagura, because he has similar eye powers to his brother, Shisui.


----------



## Easley (Jul 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No, it's not impossible. I highly doubt that the Rinnegan Madara gave Nagato was his own eyes, and I have evidence to back it up. Too lazy to type it out again, but take my word for it.


You're opening a can of worms going down that road. If Madara was somehow alive to communicate with Obito, who's to say that he didn't perform the actions we attribute to Tobi? Attacked Konoha, controlled Yagura, met with Itachi/slaughtered the Uchiha, etc. When did Madara die exactly? Let's not give ammunition to loool3 and his "different people" theory.


----------



## Yuna (Jul 21, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Right, because characters have never changed ever before in this series or turned evil. (Sasuke, Gaara, Nagato)


Gaara's goal before meeting Naruto: Validating his own existence by killing others.
Afterwards: His existence is validated by his friends and villagers for him.
Sasuke old goal: Revenge. New goal: Revenge.
Nagato's old goal: World peace. "New" goal: World peace.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 21, 2012)

gjoerulv said:


> It kinda can't be Obito if he is telling the truth (or being truthish). Or Hasirama must have lived long Enough for Obito to fight him, in secret.
> Tobi had no reason to lie here as Kabuto had already shown him his trump card.
> 
> Hell, maybe Tobi = Hasirama.
> ...



I personally don't think only it could rule out the Obito theory, because there are already other questionable timeline such as it seems as Madara died while Nagato still was children. But it still is not confirmed yet. I don't think Tobi is Obito, however Kishi vaguely said Tobi in the movie is Obito. So everything in Naruto is possible, lol.

The movie actually is more or less canon because the story before Tobi starts his genjutsu is pretty same as story in the manga. Unless the Obito thing was bullshit or something weird genjutsu lol.


----------



## Easley (Jul 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I highly doubt that it's Izuna. This is because Izuna was a minor background character shown in two or three panels. There's no way we'd recognize his face behind the mask, especially if it's old and wrinkly. Hell, from what we can see of Tobi's face, he looks nothing like Izuna. How can we recognize a face that is unrecognizable?


I agree that Tobi _should_ be someone we recognize, but it can also be effective if the characters recognize him, and we don't. It all depends on their reaction. In fact, after the initial shock that's what I'm looking forward to - their comments and facial expressions. Izuna was never one of my favorite candidates for the reasons you mentioned, but he would make sense from a writing perspective. It explains how he knows so much about Madara.



> In my opinion, Tobi is Obito and his brother is Shisui. This could work and also fit with the theme. Not to mention that every major Uchiha has been brothers with another major Uchiha, all except for Obito and Shisui. This also explains how Obito could have controlled Yagura, because he has similar eye powers to his brother, Shisui.


Shisui is the better option for controlling Yagura, since we _know_ he has that ability. Obito being his brother is speculation. Personally, I don't think Tobi is either of them.


----------



## Yuna (Jul 21, 2012)

Trix13 said:


> 1. Let's start with the location of the Sharigan. His right eye, is the sharigan, while his left eye, up until now has been concealed. Who knows, he might've had an eye, but AS FAR AS WE KNOW, he didn't, till he got the sage of the rinnengan.


The Hell are you talking about? Tobi had a 2nd Sharingan while fighting Konan to find the location of the Rinnegan.



Trix13 said:


> 1A. The eye, Kakashi holds from his dear friend Obito, is in the left socket... Now... Why would this be? could it just be kishi pulling the leg? lol


This proves shit.



Trix13 said:


> 2. Hair. "But mister, hair is justt hair, many people got the same hairdo. *BUZZER* WRONG! Hair usually, sticks the same.


Except half of the rookies changed their hairstyle as the series progressed.



Trix13 said:


> Blonde heads? Um, naruto is related to the senju's and well Tsunade has blonde hair...


Naruto's blonde hair is from Minato. Tsunade's blonde hair is from an unnamed parent, as her Senju grandparent had black hair.



Trix13 said:


> 3. Grudges against the Uchiha. Until his eye was open, that nobody saw, but Kakkashi and that nobody character Rin. Until then everyone thought he was weak, and not worthy of the "Uchiha" name. While this is scraps, this could've been the reason why he helped Itachi destroy the clan.


But what about his grudge against *Konoha*?



Trix13 said:


> 5. Jump to the present... "You don't remember faces, so what's the point?" "Kakkashi, you always open your mouth so easily no wonder you live a life of regrets..." ...If this isn't straight telling you this is Obito. Please step away from the manga Naruto, and wait for the Naruto and Sasuke match up against Madara!


This proves shit. It's a tiny indication.

Most of what you wrote wasn't proof. Some of it was wholly inaccurate and *contradicts the manga*.


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 21, 2012)

For this to be true then I am sure Obito would have had to be a Victim of some serious manipulation as for all the things he has pulled for the girl he loved is stupid.

Consider more why he would go to such lengths for her.

If anything I rather see that they lied to him about her death perhaps telling him Kakashi killed her and somehow managed to convince him.

Perhaps Zetsu roleplayed and faked the incident somehow.
Created Clones of Kakashi and Rin.
Then "Kakashi" killed "Rin".
B. Zetsu recorded and showed it.
If it happened during or shortly after the War then he also has a reason for the Mugen Tsukuyomi/Fake Peace.


I don't believe in this though this is the only scenario I can find plausible somehow even if its highly unlikely.


----------



## NW (Jul 21, 2012)

Easley said:


> I agree that Tobi _should_ be someone we recognize, but it can also be effective if the characters recognize him, and we don't. It all depends on their reaction. In fact, after the initial shock that's what I'm looking forward to - their comments and facial expressions. Izuna was never one of my favorite candidates for the reasons you mentioned, but he would make sense from a writing perspective. It explains how he knows so much about Madara.
> 
> Shisui is the better option for controlling Yagura, since we _know_ he has that ability. Obito being his brother is speculation. Personally, I don't think Tobi is either of them.


One of the biggest mysteries in the manga right now is Tobi's true identity. People are anxious to find out who he is, and I'm sure Kishi took this into account when he introduced Tobi. So, it is logical that Tobi's true identity would be someone both the readers and characters in the manga would recognize. This makes it the most climactic type of reveal. 

I just don't see it being Izuna.

You're right that the thing about Obito and Shisui being brothers is just speculation. But, I feel that if this is true, it would be the most logical and interesting way for Kishi to explain how Tobi controlled Yagura. Just my opinion, of course.


----------



## Yuna (Jul 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Hell, from what we can see of Tobi's face, he looks nothing like Izuna. How can we recognize a face that is unrecognizable?
> 
> [...]
> 
> In my opinion, Tobi is Obito and his brother is Shisui.


What? Tobi's eyeshape and eyelid shape is identical to Izuna's while looking *nothing* like Obito's. The only thing that makes what's been shown of Tobi's face different from Izuna are the lines/wrinkles below his eyes, but it's not like Obito had them either.


----------



## JPongo (Jul 21, 2012)

The Tobito theory just doesn't work.

The guy was left for dead under a rock with bigger rocks coming down. HE DEAD!

Tobi seems to know too much about the past and jutsus from many clans. He's probably read most if not all of the Uchiha tablets where rinnegan was necessary.

Obito is younger than Nagato and Minato.  There is NO WAY he can accumulate that much knowledge that rivals Oro who's also older than him.  And what will be his driving force?  He died heeding the words of his sensei Minato and made peace with Kakashi.

It's gotta be the elder son of RS or Izuna for it to not be anticlimactic. 

Just my two cents, not $100.

LOL.

It just doesn't add up.


----------



## Yuna (Jul 21, 2012)

I already have a standing bet against two people. It's not for money though, but for sets. Loser has to wear a "I was wrong about Tobi" set for 6 months. I cannot take your bet for $100 because I agree with you.


----------



## Summers (Jul 21, 2012)

I cant wait until this crap mystery is over. It will take another month or 2 but soon it will end.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 21, 2012)

I sure don't hope so, but I admit that you have the upper advantage... However I tend to be lucky when it comes to gambling, lol.


----------



## JPongo (Jul 21, 2012)

Weak reasons/assumptions for the Tobito theory.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 21, 2012)

Summers said:


> I cant wait until this crap mystery is over. It will take another month or 2 but soon it will end.



even worse when we see "obito" instead of tobi, if that theory ever passes


----------



## lucid1 (Jul 21, 2012)

i'll be sure to bump this whatever the outcome


----------



## icemanlonewolf (Jul 21, 2012)

It's rather hilarious that the guy that took the bet isn't even a supporter of the Tobito theory, but just wants to gamble.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 21, 2012)

Okay, Kakashi has had MORE associations with Tobi than ANY other villain in this manga and the dialogue Tobi always has with him ALWAYS points at there being some underlying connection between them.

Plus the fact that he appeared with the goofy whacky personality he had, Who ELSE would act like that aside, which was characteristic of a character we know as Obito.

On top of that there will be less explanation needed for WHY is ONLY his right sharingan his original and still there. Because kakashi has the left one.
 We have the explanation for why Danzo had only a right one, he only managed to take one of Shisui who then gave the other to Itachi so he has none. 
 It just fits in every scenario better than Kagami, Izuna, or any other longer shot has more plot holes, go ahead give another identity and I'll box that up with plot holes. The ONLY other viable choice at this point is Kagami and that would leave even MORE questions than answers like how would kyuubi have recognized chakra. You gotta face it Obito>anyother option at this point. Is it definite? no like I said, but it is the MOST viable option.
And this is coming from someone who REALLY was adamant about Izuna or Fugaku being the most likely. 

Literally every scene he makes comments DIRECTLY to Kakashi
First meeting: 
Kisame compares to his teachers abilities
Kisame kakashi's sharingan panel to tobi's sharingan panel
Kisame still no reason for the sudden MS activation

Second meeting: 
Kisame Complimenting only Kakashi in this situation 

Third meeting:
Kisame
Already knows that Kakashi's MS wouldn't work on him, plus Kakashi's reaction at that statement. and they ARE so similar afterall in s/t swirls. What are the chances 2 unrelated eyes would have such similar jutsu's. Shisui's both had koto, Itachi and Sasuke both had amaterasu and susanoo and genjutsu, Madara and Izuna likely had similar as well we will find out someday im sure, and Obitos must have then kamui and s/t intangi+teleport.


Fourth meeting:
Kisame
again ALWAYS complimenting Kakashi, and another reference to HIS EYES
Kisame
apparently has a history with kakashi because why else would gai and kakashi ask who are you after such a comment and make the "....." there is OBVIOUSLY something deeper in here.
The you dont remember faces comment so what point is there telling you is a jab at that gai HAS seen his face and knows him, but he is being evasive by saying ther is no point because gai wouldn't remember and of course another panel of kakashi's face. kishi is giving hints that it is obito. and kakashi regrets his past of not having changed and been long friends with obito until he was about to die and not protecting rin. thats a life of regrets.

And being composed of all that Zetsu goop is an explanation for why he has a body. What other reason is there for being composed of that crazy organic material for Izuna or Kagami or any other identity that makes sense as much as being crushed/damaged by a rock slide.


----------



## NW (Jul 21, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> Yeah, except, you know, he controlled the fucking Kyuubi with his Sharingan and generally seemed to know a LOT.


Controlling Kurama would have been easy seeing as how he had Uchiha ad Senju DNA. And, we haven't really sen Tobi give a history lesson during that battle. We do't know how much he knew yet. Most of the things he knows about Rikudou and stuff were from reading it of the tablet.



Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> Why did Tobi left side looked like black zetsu when he used izanagi in the fight with konan?
> He was to be madara but kishi? no wonder you made naruto to reach 590+ chapters.
> troll


His left side did not look like Black Zetsu. It was just shaded out for some reason As you can see, Tobi's face was clearly not split down the middle, and you can see in another chapter that the other side of his face is completely normal. Also, Tobi was never intended to be Madara. -__-



jacamo said:


> im still sticking with Uchiha Kagami being Obito's father
> 
> its plausible Kagami would have been Anbu
> 
> its plausible Kagami would have known Kakashi and Gai


It's also implausible that it's Kagami because we've barely seen his face. We only got a weird angle and then a shot from a few feet away. No one will recognize his face.



Scizor said:


> How would Tobito theorists explain the bottom right panel on this page?
> 
> I'm not implying criticism per se, but I'd like to hear/read how Tobito theorists explain that panel, as Tobi had no reason to lie there and Obito cannot have fought the first Hokage.


Obviously to keep fans from knowing that he wasn't really Madara. It would be to weird if he all of a sudden just said, "Yeah, Madara got these cells from his fight with Hashirama". Tobi was basically just living a lie.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 21, 2012)

icemanlonewolf said:


> It's rather hilarious that the guy that took the bet isn't even a supporter of the Tobito theory, but just wants to gamble.



Yeah I can't say that I'm supporter of the Tobito theory, but at the same time I don't deny its possibility due to Tobi may be Obito in the movie. Also there are a few possible hints in the manga, even if I don't understand how the timeline would work. 

For me $100 is not that much, since I usually play with around $100 when it comes to spin, poker and other games. It's just nice if I actually win, but well, we'll know sooner or later.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 21, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Yeah I can't say that I'm supporter of the Tobito theory, but at the same time I don't deny its possibility due to Tobi may be Obito in the movie. Also there are a few possible hints in the manga, *even if I don't understand how the timeline would work.*
> 
> For me $100 is not that much, since I usually play with around $100 when it comes to spin, poker and other games. It's just nice if I actually win, but well, we'll know sooner or later.


Read this entire thread:


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 21, 2012)

Read the [amazing] post by TH4N4TOS above...



			
				Jikayaki said:
			
		

> The Kagami theory makes far more sense than Obito theories on multiple fronts. The only real downside is the lack of audience investment with the character.



Saying there is a "lack of audience investment" with Kagami is a massive understatement...The audience doesn't even _know_ the character.

All the little holes in the Tobito theory are like little potholes on the road, and while there might only be one hole in the Kagami theory, it's a damn sinkhole.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 21, 2012)

Sareth said:


> Read this entire thread:



I don't refer to the Kurama attack, but that Tobi seems older than so. I mean Madara seems to know Tobi and it also seems as Madara died while Nagato was very young, so Obito wasn't born then. But I could be wrong, Kishi can come up with whatever he wants.


----------



## T-Bag (Jul 21, 2012)

its fugaku 

every one writes this guy off because they think he died. but he didn't, that friend lived. itachi killed a zetsu clone or it was a genjutsu

leader of the uchiha clan son. u can expect some crazy shit with this one


----------



## Sareth (Jul 21, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I don't refer to the Kurama attack, but that Tobi seems older than so. I mean Madara seems to know Tobi and it also seems as Madara died while Nagato was very young, so Obito wasn't born then. But I could be wrong, Kishi can come up with whatever he wants.


The _entire thread_, not just the OP.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 21, 2012)

Sareth said:


> The _entire thread_, not just the OP.



Sorry I was reading a few posts now. Yes, if it's what you said about Tobi now using Obito's body, so I win.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 21, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Sorry I was reading a few posts now. Yes, if it's what you said about Tobi now using Obito's body, so I win.


Yeah, even if some people think it's highly unlikely, there is no evidence against it. Everything is possible, as Kishi's shown us many times before.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 21, 2012)

eepdoodle said:
			
		

> Obito was an unremarkable shinobi. Among his clan, he was probably the least talented of his generation. Couple that with the horrific condition he was in at the end of the gaiden and you have one seriously poor vessel. The Uchiha weren’t extinct yet. There would have been plenty, more capable sharingan users, not buried under rubble, to choose from. His only significance, plot-wise, was as a catalyst for Kakashi. No one would have looked twice. Why go through so much effort for so little.



If someone wanted an Uchiha body as a vessel, how would they go about obtaining one? Uchiha have a Kekkei Genkai; Konoha would fight to make sure no Uchiha corpse would ever fall into enemy hands.

If you want an Uchiha body, you don't exactly have your pick of the litter.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 21, 2012)

its a 2 year gap between obito death and kyuubi attack.............


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 21, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> I have no doubt that there are holes in the Tobito theory, but it is  fine to use coincidence-based assumptions as a remedy as long as they  fall within the realm of possibility and reason. As the case of Orochimaru's revival shows,   coincidences _could _mean something.
> 
> One side argued that Orochimaru couldn't possibly return. The other side  came up with "complex" solutions such as the possibility of horcruxes. Some said during Kabuto's fight that the potential "ingredients"  for the horcrux (e.g., his cells in Kabuto, Anko, her cursed seal, Sasuke, etc.) were already in place. It was coincidental, but it  proved to be instrumental to Orochimaru's return.
> 
> ...



wow that is one of the most educational answers I have seen, someone understands the basics of  argument and theory here.

Okay, Kakashi has had MORE associations with Tobi than ANY other villain in this manga and the dialogue Tobi always has with him ALWAYS points at there being some underlying connection between them.

Plus the fact that he appeared with the goofy whacky personality he had, Who ELSE would act like that aside, which was characteristic of a character we know as Obito.

On top of that there will be less explanation needed for WHY is ONLY his right sharingan his original and still there. Because kakashi has the left one.
We have the explanation for why Danzo had only a right one, he only managed to take one of Shisui who then gave the other to Itachi so he has none. 
It just fits in every scenario better than Kagami, Izuna, or any other longer shot has more plot holes, go ahead give another identity and I'll box that up with plot holes. The ONLY other viable choice at this point is Kagami and that would leave even MORE questions than answers like how would kyuubi have recognized chakra. You gotta face it Obito>anyother option at this point. Is it definite? no like I said, but it is the MOST viable option.
And this is coming from someone who REALLY was adamant about Izuna or Fugaku being the most likely. 

Literally every scene he makes comments DIRECTLY to Kakashi
First meeting: 
the bottom right panel on this page compares to his teachers abilities
the bottom right panel on this page kakashi's sharingan panel to tobi's sharingan panel
the bottom right panel on this page still no reason for the sudden MS activation

Second meeting: 
the bottom right panel on this page Complimenting only Kakashi in this situation 

Third meeting:
the bottom right panel on this page
Already knows that Kakashi's MS wouldn't work on him, plus Kakashi's reaction at that statement. and they ARE so similar afterall in s/t swirls. What are the chances 2 unrelated eyes would have such similar jutsu's. Shisui's both had koto, Itachi and Sasuke both had amaterasu and susanoo and genjutsu, Madara and Izuna likely had similar as well we will find out someday im sure, and Obitos must have then kamui and s/t intangi+teleport.


Fourth meeting:
the bottom right panel on this page
again ALWAYS complimenting Kakashi, and another reference to HIS EYES
the bottom right panel on this page
apparently has a history with kakashi because why else would gai and kakashi ask who are you after such a comment and make the "....." there is OBVIOUSLY something deeper in here.
The you dont remember faces comment so what point is there telling you is a jab at that gai HAS seen his face and knows him, but he is being evasive by saying ther is no point because gai wouldn't remember and of course another panel of kakashi's face. kishi is giving hints that it is obito. and kakashi regrets his past of not having changed and been long friends with obito until he was about to die and not protecting rin. thats a life of regrets.

And being composed of all that Zetsu goop is an explanation for why he has a body. What other reason is there for being composed of that crazy organic material for Izuna or Kagami or any other identity that makes sense as much as being crushed/damaged by a rock slide

GO AHEAD, from now one give me another character and I'll put in holes for your theory. I'm sick of you saying this has too many holes when there can be situation answers. I can play devils advocate for every theory there is. This isn't based on definitive answers, this is based on likelyness.


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 21, 2012)

Oh, I must keep track of this thread. Good luck, gamblers.


----------



## frenchmax (Jul 21, 2012)

eepdoodle said:


> Hmm, you?d think he?d just snatch the eye then instead of the body. Unless he couldn?t for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> Right. Why is Kisame?s age relevant to determining how old Obito is? I guess I missed your point.



I just need to ask...why would someone snatch a fucked up body instead of taking a full healthy uchiha? they weren' t wiped out at that time.



Sareth said:


> The eye might work better within the family. Tobi could even _be_ Kagami, an old man who went looking for his son's body, found it, took control over it, formed Akatsuki with it, etc. That would be some twisted shit.
> 
> Tobirama was Kagami's sensei, and a prominent user of S/T jutsus. Tobi's S/T jutsu might be an improved version of Tobirama's, enhanced by Obito's Sharingan.
> 
> I know it seems far fetched, but the possibilities are endless.



Tobi (who is supposed to be kagami) was according to you tobirama' s pupil and doesn' t know shit about edo tensei??? I don' t think so.


----------



## Ghost (Jul 21, 2012)

eepdoodle said:


> Tobi was mind raping Yagura while Obito was still a child. How does this jive with the Tobito theory?



Could've been the real Madara.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 21, 2012)

frenchmax said:


> Tobi (who is supposed to be kagami) was according to you tobirama' s pupil and doesn' t know shit about edo tensei??? I don' t think so.




_"During the First Shinobi World War, he was part of a team consisting of Tobirama Senju, Hiruzen Sarutobi, Koharu Utatane, Homura Mitokado, Danzō Shimura, and Torifu Akimichi. He is assumed to have died at some later point, either before or during the Uchiha clan massacre."_

That is what I was referring to. I don't know if Tobirama was his sensei, but during the time that he was in that team, Kagami must have seen some of his jutsus. Not necessarily Edo Tensei, since it's forbidden.


----------



## Archangel Michael (Jul 21, 2012)

He doesn't even know where you people live. You guys aren't getting shit.


----------



## frenchmax (Jul 21, 2012)

Sareth said:


> _"During the First Shinobi World War, he was part of a team consisting of Tobirama Senju, Hiruzen Sarutobi, Koharu Utatane, Homura Mitokado, Danzō Shimura, and Torifu Akimichi. He is assumed to have died at some later point, either before or during the Uchiha clan massacre."_
> 
> That is what I was referring to. I don't know if Tobirama was his sensei, but during the time that he was in that team, Kagami must have seen some of his jutsus. Not necessarily Edo Tensei, since it's forbidden.



Eventho we do not have any background informations on kagami, we know that tobi held a grudge toward the uchiha clan. Kishi would have to connect his motives to the story, something the readers could easily identify with, which would give them satisfaction...

Kagami never had any relevance in the story, he only appeared once in the manga. I think that would be too disapointing.

I really don' t like the obito and Sauce from the future theories, but even those 2 would be more satisfying in matters of connection to the story than some random uchiha who never had any plot relevance since the beginning...

Kagami would be for me some story piece hard to swallow


----------



## Batman4Life (Jul 21, 2012)

Hasnt Tobi shown his face to both Sasuke and Kisame?


----------



## Archangel Michael (Jul 21, 2012)

People will think that until it's prove he's not. People used to believe the akatsuki leader was minato.

I know tobi isn't obito.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 21, 2012)

frenchmax said:


> Eventho we do not have any background informations on kagami, we know that tobi held a grudge toward the uchiha clan. Kishi would have to connect his motives to the story, something the readers could easily identify with, which would give them satisfaction...
> 
> Kagami never had any relevance in the story, he only appeared once in the manga. I think that would be too disapointing.
> 
> ...


Hey, I'm not saying it has to be Kagami. Just that it's a possibility.

Personally, I would like it more if Tobi was to be revealed as the Elder Son of Rikudou. Between Izuna (who is also a good possibility) and Kagami, I don't care that much. I might prefer Izuna.


----------



## iJutsu (Jul 21, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Wow, a Tobi = Obito thread in disguise >_>



It's a basic law in any Naruto-based forum. Any and all Tobi related threads are also Obito threads.


----------



## Raiden (Jul 21, 2012)

The idea that Kagami Uchiha should be discounted because he's a blank canvas should go both ways.

Do we truly know that much more about Obito? His story has to be warped as well because as Velocity pointed out, there is absolutely no parallelism between Obito the child and Tobi's character.

ALL theories draw from short straws. It's unfair to say "We don't know that much about xyz character so no." Truth be told, we don't know anything much about any of the candidates.

What we do know is that:

a. Kisame knows Tobi
b. Tobi has mastered the Sharingan
c. Tobi appears in the form of a full grown man
d. There are serious issues with his body
e. He has for whatever reason, an old wrinkled face.
f. controlled the Mizukage

Some of those fundamental facts discount Obito as a serious candidate. But people consider him anyway because some foreshadowing does suggest that he's going to fit in there some how. Nevertheless, based on Tobi's knowledge and history, you would think that he's an older character.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 21, 2012)

Gabe said:


> maybe because how could tobi be obito if when he fought minato he looked like an adult while kakashi looked young they were the same age.


I'm sorry, but how could you tell he looked like an adult? He was wearing a god damn mask, along with clothes that covered his entire body. To me, he looked like a 14-15 year old kid, and there's nothing you can say to prove me wrong.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 21, 2012)

Lancebob The Tyrant Destroyer said:


> He doesn't even know where you people live. You guys aren't getting shit.



He doesn't have to. The beauty of online banking


----------



## son_michael (Jul 21, 2012)

Scizor said:


> How would Tobito theorists explain the bottom right panel on this page?
> 
> I'm not implying criticism per se, but I'd like to hear/read how Tobito theorists explain that panel, as Tobi had no reason to lie there and Obito cannot have fought the first Hokage.



such an easy thing to explain. Tobi isn't Madara so obviously he's lying.Or he's not lying but the real Madara did it and Tobi didn't.


----------



## Yuna (Jul 21, 2012)

Tobitobi said:


> Actually,
> 
> 11 years before Zabuza met with team 7, he was about Naruto's age when he and Zabuza met, which was about 12, at that time.
> 
> ...


Uh... what? What do you base the claim that Obito is 4 years older than Zabuza on? How do you even know what age Zabuza was in that flashback?

Zabuza said "When I was *about* your age" to Naruto, not "Your age". Zabuza was 26 years old at the time of his death. Kakashi was *also* 26 years old at that time. They are *the exact same age*. Obito is presumably the same age as Kakashi.

Zabuza was not 12 when he slaughtered the entire graduating class of the Mist academy. Kakashi stated that 10 years ago, a sweeping reform was performed due to the Zabuza's bloodshed the year prior, which means that it occurred "11 years ago". Since Zabuza was 26 when he died, this places him at 14-15.

The *only* way for Obito to have been the Tobi controlling Yagura would've been if Yagura did not instate the Bloody Mist Area until this time (which highly doubtful since Kakashi stated that "Long ago...", the Mist Village started the practice of a graduating class massacre and that this practice was not repealed until 10 years prior to the start of the series.

Kakashi clearly stated that the Bloody Mist Era started "a long time ago", and that the Academy Massacre practice only stopped 10 years ago. While we do not know how many years passed between these two milestones, we know it's most probably more than 2 years.

No, Obito was *not* the Tobi controlling Yagura. This is pretty much *crystal clear*.


----------



## Sareth (Jul 21, 2012)

Edit.......


----------



## Yuna (Jul 21, 2012)

Time probably stops or moves at a slower pace in Tobi's dimension. Fuu and Torune were in there for several weeks, presumably, and Tobi probably didn't bother to feed them. Which means you can't use the dimension to age rapidly in a short period of time.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 21, 2012)

Every other theory for Tobi is 90% fanfic.  At least with Obito there is physical evidence and conjecture something no other theory has.  Its crazy that Obito theory based off obvious stuff is put to such a harsh standard but people can make up anything about characters that have one panel and it be ok.  There is nothing to suggest many people are Tobi except being dead Uchiha.  The rest is made up.   I don't care if people don't believe because even I'm not 100%. 

For one thing with the timeline.  Kisame and Obito are almost the same age so how hard is to see that at 16-20 something Obito genjutsu'd someone.  I mean 16 year old Sasuke and Naruto do nothing amazing?  Likely, that things that happened prior to Obito were Madara who's time of death is unknown.  Just because he considered Nagato a brat doesn't mean he wasn't only alive until he was little kid considering Madara would have been in his 80-90's.  What he considers a brat could be anything.


----------



## Edotensai (Jul 21, 2012)

didn't Itachi get Mangekyo for killing Shisui? since Itachi had mangekyo when he was questioned for the murder of Shisui, doesn't that indicate that Shisui really had to be dead? or did I miss a change in story of how to get mangekyo?


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 21, 2012)

eepdoodle said:


> Tobi was mind raping Yagura while Obito was still a child. How does this jive with the Tobito theory?



Kisame is the same age as Obito.  If you can accept Sasuke being all powerful at 16 why can't Obito use genjutsu at 16-20 something?


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 21, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Every other theory for Tobi is 90% fanfic.  At least with Obito there is physical evidence and conjecture something no other theory has.  Its crazy that Obito theory based off obvious stuff is put to such a harsh standard but people can make up anything about characters that have one panel and it be ok.  There is nothing to suggest many people are Tobi except being dead Uchiha.  The rest is made up.   I don't care if people don't believe because even I'm not 100%.
> 
> For one thing with the timeline.  Kisame and Obito are almost the same age so how hard is to see that at 16-20 something Obito genjutsu'd someone.  I mean 16 year old Sasuke and Naruto do nothing amazing?  Likely, that things that happened prior to Obito were Madara who's time of death is unknown.  Just because he considered Nagato a brat doesn't mean he wasn't only alive until he was little kid considering Madara would have been in his 80-90's.  What he considers a brat could be anything.



How does the Obito theory make sense if Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan & Nagato is older than Minato who is around 20 years or so years older than Obito? The timeline in this regard is simply ridiculous.

The only thing against most other theories is how said character would even be relevant. Kishi has said for a long time now that 'this is Kakashi's year' practically every year. Some Tobito theorists would use this as an excuse, when Kishi himself is admitting that he's not using Kakashi as he wish he could have or wanted to. Hint hint, Obito being Tobi holds a lesser stance now. But SOME Tobito fans would still use this as an excuse.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 21, 2012)

Yuna said:


> Uh... what? What do you base the claim that Obito is 4 years older than Zabuza on? How do you even know what age Zabuza was in that flashback?
> 
> Zabuza said "When I was *about* your age" to Naruto, not "Your age". Zabuza was 26 years old at the time of his death. Kakashi was *also* 26 years old at that time. They are *the exact same age*. Obito is presumably the same age as Kakashi.
> 
> ...



Its implied that Madara was the one who started Bloody Mist not Tobi.  Tobi was only controlly the current when Kisame was there and they're both about the same age so it's not far far fetch.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 21, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> How does the Obito theory make sense if Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan & Nagato is older than Minato who is around 20 years or so years older than Obito? The timeline in this regard is simply ridiculous.
> 
> The only thing against most other theories is how said character would even be relevant. Kishi has said for a long time now that 'this is Kakashi's year' practically every year. Some Tobito theorists would use this as an excuse, when Kishi himself is admitting that he's not using Kakashi as he wish he could have or wanted to. Hint hint, Obito being Tobi holds a lesser stance now. But SOME Tobito fans would still use this as an excuse.



Makes sense if it was madara himself who did it ooOO00o. The one who he is masquerading as. And yes even onoki believed it even though he had met madara


----------



## Mateush (Jul 21, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> He doesn't have to. The beauty of online banking



Lol, maybe he is too young for the internet. None can know if I or he will pay as promised, so no point in arguing about it. Maybe we will use middle hand if it comes to it.


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 21, 2012)

Raiden said:


> The idea that Kagami Uchiha should be discounted because he's a blank canvas should go both ways.
> 
> Do we truly know that much more about Obito? His story has to be warped as well because as Velocity pointed out, there is absolutely no parallelism between Obito the child and Tobi's character.
> 
> ...


Actially the foreshadow statement made by itachi lends credibility. How if Mario kept shouldering everything even if he means good, he would end up like 'madara'.


----------



## Yuna (Jul 21, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Its implied that Madara was the one who started Bloody Mist not Tobi.


Where is it implied that he did?


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 21, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> How does the Obito theory make sense if Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan & Nagato is older than Minato who is around 20 years or so years older than Obito? The timeline in this regard is simply ridiculous.
> 
> The only thing against most other theories is how said character would even be relevant. Kishi has said for a long time now that 'this is Kakashi's year' practically every year. Some Tobito theorists would use this as an excuse, when Kishi himself is admitting that he's not using Kakashi as he wish he could have or wanted to. Hint hint, Obito being Tobi holds a lesser stance now. But SOME Tobito fans would still use this as an excuse.



If Tobi is Obito he was lying about giving his eyes to Nagato.  There is no point in giving a how because it's just a plot hole filler story.  Honestly there are not plot holes with Obito that can not be filled in with story.  Believe me I was pretty die hard anti-Obito until a few weeks ago.  I just took everything without bias and taking out plot holes Obito is the only character with any evidence whether physical or circumstantial and had dramatic effect for the characters with the reveal.

See any of the dead Uchiha could except Shushiu could be Tobi in my opinion.  Because you can fill in the plot holes with whatever fanfic theory you like.  But Obito is the only Uchiha with obvious evidence.  Just ignore the plot holes that bother you and look at the evidence nobody is even close.  Kishi will have to fill in plot holes for any character is Tobi.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 21, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> How does the Obito theory make sense if Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan & Nagato is older than Minato who is around 20 years or so years older than Obito? The timeline in this regard is simply ridiculous.
> 
> The only thing against most other theories is how said character would even be relevant. Kishi has said for a long time now that 'this is Kakashi's year' practically every year. Some Tobito theorists would use this as an excuse, when Kishi himself is admitting that he's not using Kakashi as he wish he could have or wanted to. Hint hint, Obito being Tobi holds a lesser stance now. But SOME Tobito fans would still use this as an excuse.




Stop taking everything tobi says as fact. Tobi told Konan that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan but Edo madara said he was surprised Nagato wasn't the one to revive him and then we even saw that Tobi DID NOT WANT MADARA revived. See the pattern here? Tobi is pretending to be Madara on all fronts.

So basically Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan then died soon after, tobi somehow knows about this and intends to screw Madara's plan and enact his own plan.

Minato died16 years before the present time. that means Minato would be older than Nagato since as far as I can tell, Nagato is in his mid 30's.  

So madara gives nagato the eyes when he's a baby then died shortly thereafter. Zetsu is most likely created before he dies, Zetsu finds a new body to continue Madara's will. that body is obito. Obito undergoes intense reconditioning and some modifications to his body. 2-4 years pass and obito is about 14-16. With his new body and mission, he acts as Madara instructed him but after he fails in destroying Konoha he has years to ponder his next move and he comes to the decision that he no longer wants to follow Madara's plan, he wants a world free of evil and he rationalizes that the only way is through mugen tsukiyomi. 


and that's 1 way it could all make sense.


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 21, 2012)

son_michael said:


> Stop taking everything tobi says as fact. Tobi told Konan that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan but Edo madara said he was surprised Nagato wasn't the one to revive him and then we even saw that Tobi DID NOT WANT MADARA revived. See the pattern here? Tobi is pretending to be Madara on all fronts.
> 
> So basically Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan then died soon after, tobi somehow knows about this and intends to screw Madara's plan and enact his own plan.
> 
> ...



No Nagato was 13ish during the second ninja war.  So he was 40ish.  Madara didn't give Nagato his eyes because he wouldn't have them as an EDO.  Well I take that back because Kabuto did do some sort of prime reset on Madara.  If Tobi = Obito someone else implanted Nagato's eyes though.


----------



## Revolution (Jul 21, 2012)

*Tobi is Killer Zylos Wolf*

I mean Zetsu.  Tobi is Zetsu.  He can eat people and make clones of them as we have already learned from Neji.  Tobi has a close relationship with Tobi for a reason.  Everything that Zetsu watches is given to Tobi.  Tobi has seen everything Zetsu has seen, so yes, Tobi is someone who Kakashi and Guy have met face to face with..


----------



## Danzio (Jul 21, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> its fugaku
> 
> every one writes this guy off because they think he died. but he didn't, that friend lived. itachi killed a zetsu clone or it was a genjutsu
> 
> leader of the uchiha clan son. u can expect some crazy shit with this one



Lol, you still believe that even after witnessing all the horror on Itachi's face? 



Btw, how do all the Kagami folks explain the fact that Tobi did not know anything about Edo tensei, because i'm pretty sure Tobirama, his teacher, created the jutsu.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 21, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> No Nagato was 13ish during the second ninja war.  So he was 40ish.  Madara didn't give Nagato his eyes because he wouldn't have them as an EDO.  Well I take that back because Kabuto did do some sort of prime reset on Madara.  If Tobi = Obito someone else implanted Nagato's eyes though.



why couldn't Madara implant the eyes before he was dead? And yea, Kabuto gave Madara the rinnegan and hashirama DNA, he didn't have that shit when he died.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Jul 21, 2012)

Danzio said:


> Btw, how do all the Kagami folks explain the fact that Tobi did not know anything about Edo tensei, because i'm pretty sure Tobirama, his teacher, created the jutsu.


He did know about the *kenjutsu.* He ASKED KABUTO HOW DOES IT WORK AND HOW TO STOP IT. It's a kenjutsu and only orochimaru figured it out. Why would tobirama teach his students how to do his kenjutsu? I honestly think tobirama used this kenjutsu waay before he became the elders captain. 

NOW HOW DO ALL YOU OBITO = TOBI FANS EXPLAIN MY LAST POST

So obito as a 5 - 8 year old  went to the rain village during the 2nd ninja war and gave nagato the runningan and persuaded yahiko to form akatsuki?

Obito was in the rain village before the legendary 3 got their title? 

obito >>>> hanzo and the legendary 3 in their prime?

OBITO HAS GOTS TO BE TA TOBI!!!!!!! FINAL BOSS 100% CONFIRMED!!!!


----------



## DelRappy (Jul 21, 2012)

Well, I don't know if this has been mentioned already in this thread, but I'm not sure if we can be sure that current Tobi is the same Tobi from those past events.

He said himself that he's no one and that Madara is his ideology. It could be that many people have been the masked man. That would open up not only Obito, but several other characters as possible Tobi identities; even ones that have died way before this war.

Uchiha, or even non-Uchiha, which have embraced the cause of ending the Senju dictatorship, dissolving their selves by wearing a mask and living for an ideal.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jul 21, 2012)

son_michael said:


> Stop taking everything tobi says as fact. Tobi told Konan that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan but Edo madara said he was surprised Nagato wasn't the one to revive him and then we even saw that *Tobi DID NOT WANT MADARA revived.* See the pattern here? Tobi is pretending to be Madara on all fronts.
> 
> So basically *Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan then died soon after*, tobi somehow knows about this and intends to screw Madara's plan and enact his own plan.
> 
> ...



Except that Tobi DID want to revive Madara. This is why he said that Nagato wasn't supposed to used Rine Tensei but let Tobi use it to revive Madara. Tobi was angry HOW Nagato used Rine Tensei and not that he actually did because if he used it to revive Madara he wouldn't care because things would be going according to plan. 

Nagato is older than Minato because he was around the 2nd great war + he was Jiriaya's first student and Minato was his second. If Minato was 10 when he graduated from the academy and Nagato was already around 13 or so when Jiriaya trained the orphans, THAT ALONE tells us that Nagato and Konan are older than Minato. Plus there's the fact that Minato was leading a team in the 3rd shinobi war in which Nagato was already around the age of 17 when he was apart of Akatsuki or rather when Yahiko, Konan, and him created it. 

Plus where's the room for training? Obito's bodily reconstruction would take long as it is, being able to walk again alone would take a while. Let alone training...



Raventhal said:


> If Tobi is Obito he was lying about giving his eyes to Nagato.  There is no point in giving a how because it's just a plot hole filler story.  Honestly there are not plot holes with Obito that can not be filled in with story.  Believe me I was pretty die hard anti-Obito until a few weeks ago.  I just took everything without bias and taking out plot holes Obito is the only character with any evidence whether physical or circumstantial and had dramatic effect for the characters with the reveal.
> 
> See any of the dead Uchiha could except Shushiu could be Tobi in my opinion.  Because you can fill in the plot holes with whatever fanfic theory you like.  But Obito is the only Uchiha with obvious evidence.  Just ignore the plot holes that bother you and look at the evidence nobody is even close.  Kishi will have to fill in plot holes for any character is Tobi.



But that is Kishi's style. He did this with Shisui and Izuna previously, right now he's doing the same thing with Obito. He's shut down hopes for Izuna and Shisui by character statements and memories. The same is happening right now with Obito. It's a pattern really. All of this is simply to fuck with our heads to get us to think it's Obito when it makes us overlook plot holes and just settle for a fixed pattern. Kishi knows he's making everybody hype for this hence why the movie comes out next week...

it's just his style bro.



Mistshadow said:


> Makes sense if it was madara himself who did it ooOO00o. The one who he is masquerading as. And yes even onoki believed it even though he had met madara



Honestly I don't understand your post :/


----------



## Mistshadow (Jul 21, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> He did know about the *kenjutsu.* He ASKED KABUTO HOW DOES IT WORK AND HOW TO STOP IT. It's a kenjutsu and only orochimaru figured it out. Why would tobirama teach his students how to do his kenjutsu? I honestly think tobirama used this kenjutsu waay before he became the elders captain.
> 
> NOW HOW DO ALL YOU OBITO = TOBI FANS EXPLAIN MY LAST POST
> 
> ...



I did, it was madara and he took credit as he was pretending to be madara


----------



## NW (Jul 21, 2012)

MS81 said:


> Kishi said it will be someone we know, but don't know...


What? Please provide a link to where you got this information from.



T-Bag said:


> its fugaku
> 
> every one writes this guy off because they think he died. but he didn't, that friend lived. itachi killed a zetsu clone or it was a genjutsu
> 
> leader of the uchiha clan son. u can expect some crazy shit with this one


it's not him. Fugaku's eye shape is completely different than Tobi's. That alone removes him as a serious candidate. Also, how do you explain Tobi and Fugaku having different hair lengths during the massacre? Not to mention that he wouldn't be old enough.



(510)THIZZ said:


> He did know about the *kenjutsu.* He ASKED KABUTO HOW DOES IT WORK AND HOW TO STOP IT. It's a kenjutsu and only orochimaru figured it out. Why would tobirama teach his students how to do his kenjutsu? I honestly think tobirama used this kenjutsu waay before he became the elders captain.
> 
> NOW HOW DO ALL YOU OBITO = TOBI FANS EXPLAIN MY LAST POST
> 
> ...


Actually, Obito would have been about 16 when the Bloody Mist started. It's not implausible.


----------



## frenchmax (Jul 21, 2012)

*Ultimate Tobi' s identity proof*

Was right before your eyes all the time...
Proved by the manga itself

here you have it:

lower panel

the bottom right panel on this page


*Spoiler*: __ 



So please stop the obito / izuna / Sasuke from the future wank, thx


----------



## MYJC (Jul 21, 2012)

I want it to be true on some level, but I have a few issues with the "Obito" theory. 

For one...why is Tobi so insistent on them not finding out who he is? I can understand when he was masquerading as Madara, but at this point everyone knows he's not really Madara and he even says it doesn't matter. Why not just admit it at this point?

Why would he turn evil? And not only that, but his personality is COMPLETELY differen than Obito's. And no, "goofy" Tobi was not how Obito actually acted either. PLEASE tell me he has a better reason for all of his heinous actions (almost killing baby Naruto, unleashing 9-tails on Konoha, killing Minato and Kushina, starting a war, sending Akatsuki after people, wanting to take over the world) besides just being mad that Rin died. 

Wouldn't Obito have been a little more familiar with Minato's moves than he seemed to be on the night of the Kyuubi attack? Seemed a bit surprised at some of the 4th's moves. 

How would he know so much about Madara?

How did he end up running Akatsuki? Unless the real Madara was originally running it and put Tobi in charge right before he died. 

What's up with this: the bottom right panel on this page

Even seconds before Konan died, Tobi is still insisting that he's Madara. Obviously he isn't the original, but it's very odd that he'd still feel a need to lie at that point. He even called Konan a "little girl" when, if he's Obito, then he's actually probably a little younger than Konan. 

Not completely dismissing Obito, but that's a LOT of explaining to do. It might make more sense if Obito was somehow brainwashed into thinking he was Madara or implanted with Madara's memories or something.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 21, 2012)

I have heard the same thing 1000 times, so it's not even funny anymore.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 21, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Except that Tobi DID want to revive Madara. This is why he said that Nagato wasn't supposed to used Rine Tensei but let Tobi use it to revive Madara. Tobi was angry HOW Nagato used Rine Tensei and not that he actually did because if he used it to revive Madara he wouldn't care because things would be going according to plan.



thats a whole lot of assumptions your making. Tobi said Nagato was to use those eyes for his purposes, he never said to resurrect Uchiha madara. Furthermore, tobi was pissed at kabuto for reviving Madara, I interpreted that as he didn't want Madara getting in his way or just being brought back altogether.  



> Nagato is older than Minato because he was around the 2nd great war + he was Jiriaya's first student and Minato was his second. If Minato was 10 when he graduated from the academy and Nagato was already around 13 or so when Jiriaya trained the orphans, THAT ALONE tells us that Nagato and Konan are older than Minato. Plus there's the fact that Minato was leading a team in the 3rd shinobi war in which Nagato was already around the age of 17 when he was apart of Akatsuki or rather when Yahiko, Konan, and him created it.



Ok so lets say Nagato is 3-4 years older than minato. That doesn't really change anything important in the tobito theory so why are we discussing this?



> Plus where's the room for training? Obito's bodily reconstruction would take long as it is, being able to walk again alone would take a while. Let alone training...



what makes you think body reconstruction would take a long time? Being able to walk again? why are you thinking in real life terms? He would just magically get new limbs from zetsu and be subjected to genjutsu training. If anything it would probably take 3- 4 months for "tobi" to be complete.





> But that is Kishi's style. He did this with Shisui and Izuna previously, right now he's doing the same thing with Obito. He's shut down hopes for Izuna and Shisui by character statements and memories. The same is happening right now with Obito. It's a pattern really. All of this is simply to fuck with our heads to get us to think it's Obito when it makes us overlook plot holes and just settle for a fixed pattern. Kishi knows he's making everybody hype for this hence why the movie comes out next week...
> 
> it's just his style bro.



he's putting out tons of hints and has done so since tobi first appeared. He never did any of that with shisui or Izuna so i dont know what your talking about there. Regardless, you really think he's just gonna pick some random nobody to be tobi? It has to be someone with impact and I agree shisui fits that criteria but he's been eliminated so obito is the only choice IMO.


----------



## NW (Jul 21, 2012)

Obito ties up the most loose ends and also fits with all of Kishi's themes. I can't be bothered to explain them all yet again but here are a few.

All the main villains in the series have been from a different generation spawning from the beginning of Ninja villages.

Madara(1st generation)
Danzo(2nd Generation)
Orochimaru(3rd Generation)
Nagato(4th Generation)
_____(5th Generation)
Sasuke(6th Generation)

Notice how there is a major villain from every generation except the 5th. Tobi is the main villain of the series, so it can be expected that he fits into this pattern. The only place to fit into is the 5th Generation. Who is in that generation that fits? Obito. There's no one else from that generation that it could be. And it wouldn't really thematically fit for Tobi to be from a generation before 5, as we already have villains from the other generations. And we know how crazy Kishi is with themes.

There is also another interesting parallel to be made. The 1st, 3d, 4th, 5th, and 6th Generations all have the villain being from a team that parallels Team 7 or is Team 7. That person is also usually responsible for the death of his master(excluding Madara). Let's take a look:

Madara: From a "team" that paralleled Team 7(Madara/Sasuke, Hashirama/Naruto, Mito/Sakura). Went evil.

Orochimaru: From a team that paralleled Team 7(Orochimaru/Sasuke, Jiraiya/Naruto, Tsunade/Sakura). Went evil and killed his master, Hiruzen.

Nagato: From a team that paralleled Team 7(Nagato/Sasuke, Yahiko/Naruto, Konan/Sakura). Went evil and killed his master, Jiraiya.



Sasuke: Is on the actual Team 7. Went evil and after three years of training, "killed" his new master, Orochimaru.

So, theoretically:  Obito: Was from the 5th generation and was on a team paralleling Team 7(Obito/Naruto, Kakashi/Sasuke, Rin/Sakura). He went evil for currently unknown reasons and killed Minato.

Also, Obito was an EXACT parallel to Naruto. The hair, the clothes(orange with blue highlights reversed to blue with orange highlights), the GOGGLES. Everything. Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto and was an Uchiha.

Now, by this logic, an evil Obito would be an exact opposite of Naruto and be a great final villain.

Even Itachi made a vague reference to this. He said that if Naruto forgets his friends, and his ego gets to him, he'll become just like Tobi. So, if obito forgot his friends(as he was a comrade-centric character) his ego would get too big and he would become Tobi.

Now, here's another thing. Remember during the first battle with Orochimaru, when Sasuke kept on saying that everyone should get out of there, and then Naruto punched him in the face? Obito did the same thing to Kakashi when he refused to go rescue Rin.





Also, the Kakashi and Obito/Naruto and Sasuke parallel is really interesting.

Kakashi is like a Sasuke that had a horrible past but turned nice.(I can't say he turned good because he was already good, just a douchebag, lol.)

Obito is like Naruto who turned evil due to currently unexplained horrible events and a change of ideology.

Tobi being Obito also makes some of the odd claims he made make more sense. He wants to become complete because his body is broken and fractured from the boulders and had to be repaired with Zetsu goo.

Now, we know that Kishi bases a great deal of his manga on Japanese mythology. Here's some Japanese mythology I found on another site which supports the possibility of Tobi being Obito:



> --------------Mythology in Japan-----------------
> First I'll present an overview of what some of you may know, as we will need it for further investigation, il'll keep it short, so bear with me:
> 
> 
> ...



Obito was Minato's student. It would hold a huge amount of value to the plot if the main villain of the series is the student of the main character's father gone evil.

Obito awakened his sharingan with two tomoe and was fairly skilled at it. There's definitely something of about that... it could be a reason why madara may have chosen to save him. He sensed his potential.

Another thing is that Rin's death and how Kakashi got his sharingan haven't been explained yet. The manga is reaching it's climax, and I have a strong feeling that Tobi's identity will wrap up alot of things, including the mysteries surrounding Kakashi's past. Kishi DID say after all that Kakashi would play a big role in the story soon.

Another thing that points to Obito is that him and Tobi have the exact same eye shape. Kishi is always pays very close attention to eyeshape. It's a very defining trait for determining which character is which if they are, in silhouette. Tobi and Obito having the exact same eyeshape is a strong indicator that they are the same person. Hell, even their eyebrows and eyelids are identical.


The one problem I see with the Tobito theory however, is that when the Bloody Mist era began, Obito would have been 16. It seems kind of odd. Well, then again, Gaara became Kazekage at 16... yeah. And Naruto will probably become Hokage by 16 at the end of the manga. Obito in a sense becoming Mizukage could be another possible parallel between him and Naruto.





And now, some complimentary images for the Tobito theory:


----------



## Golden Witch (Jul 21, 2012)

Uhm yeah I see two sharingan tomoe on Obito and 3 on Tobi.


----------



## iJutsu (Jul 21, 2012)

Link removed

Middle Panel. He's a nameless fodder.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 21, 2012)

Eye Shape is very different.


----------



## NW (Jul 21, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> Uhm yeah I see two sharingan tomoe on Obito and 3 on Tobi.


By your logic, Sasuke at the end of the massacre and Sasuke in Part II are different people, because the first Sasuke had one tomoe in each eye, and the second one has three tomoe in each eye, and we ALL know that you can't increase the level of tomoe through training. And let's not forget poor Kid Kakashi who died. We know he's not alive today because we only see Adult Kakashi and he has three tomoe instead of two so they can't be the same person.



Ichiurto said:


> Eye Shape is very different.


It depends. Obito's eye is the basic shape of Tobi's, although Tobi's looks like a smaller, sleeker, more mature version. This is due to having matured with age. This is a manga. Eyeshape and size is one of the things that you can tell age and seriousness by. Sasuke's eyes as a kid were huge and look at them now. Same thing with Naruto. It's all just about when the change starts to occur. Tobi and Obito's eyes are the same overall shape. Arching upward on the side at times and being oval shaped at others, depending on the facial expression.


----------



## Chibason (Jul 21, 2012)

iJutsu said:


> Link removed
> 
> Middle Panel. He's a nameless fodder.



He doesn't have the same eye shape as Tobi.

@OP- I can't see the image you posted, so I can't comment on your theory.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 21, 2012)

iJutsu said:


> Link removed
> 
> Middle Panel. He's a nameless fodder.



I'd like to see more of this Uchiha.


----------



## fantzipants (Jul 21, 2012)

Ichiurto said:


> Obito (Tobi) held a grudge and hatred for Minato for his failure to protect Rin.
> 
> His hatred for Konoha grew because of War.
> 
> ...



Didn't minato tell kakashi that he later checked out/retrieved obito's corpse?


----------



## Chibason (Jul 21, 2012)

Hey Sarah, welcome back to 2 1/2 years ago


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 21, 2012)

Tobi is the ramen guy.


----------



## NW (Jul 21, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Tobi is the ramen guy.


Lol, who wouldda thought?


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 21, 2012)

fantzipants said:


> Didn't minato tell kakashi that he later checked out/retrieved obito's corpse?



No, not that I can recall.


----------



## King Scoop (Jul 21, 2012)

Tobi is either Obito or Izuna. They are the only 2 theories that make sense.  Whether it is really Obito, someone using his body or not. The Sharingan that Tobi uses has to belong to Obito. There's no way 2 different Uchiha would have some unique Sharingan warp technique. And the fact that Tobi seems to know Kakashi and Gai, everything just seems to point to it being Obito. There may be some plot holes, but Kishi has a fuzzy timeline anyway. Add him being trained by Madara and that takes care of 95% of any plot holes that may exist.

Izuna is the other logical choice. Him being Tobi would only be interesting up until we find out how he survived, and then no one would care anymore. I see him being the easy way out for Kishi.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 21, 2012)

I just want to tell you guys that this chapter maybe tells something about one thing:


It's possible that Obito already had good sensor ability, since it seems as he beforehand knew Kakashi won. So let's say IF Tobi has his eye or something so maybe he is very good at reading people or specifically Kakashi due to same eyes, who knows.


----------



## NW (Jul 21, 2012)

-__-**


----------



## NW (Jul 21, 2012)

^Good thinking, Mateush. It could be another Obito and Kakashi connection/parallel/romance(:ho)


----------



## NW (Jul 21, 2012)

My post(the long one a few posts above) and Sutol's post here, should be enough to convince any rational-minded, non biased person that Obito is the most likely Tobi candidate. Even if you still don't like the theory for some reason you should still accept the theory as plausible.





Sutol said:


> Yes, Kakashi being present is already a good enough reason to affirm with a certain amount of sureness that Tobi is Obito.
> 
> Why? Because this happens to be the 3rd meeting were both of them had some kind of interaction.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mateush (Jul 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> ^Good thinking, Mateush. It could be another Obito and Kakashi connection/parallel/romance(:ho)



Yeah who knows. One thing is confirmed is that Obito was able to sense what happened after his eye was removed. That is a impressive ability.


----------



## NW (Jul 21, 2012)

Yuna said:


> What? Tobi's eyeshape and eyelid shape is identical to Izuna's. The only thing that makes what's been shown of Tobi's face different from Izuna are the lines/wrinkles below his eyes, but it's not like Obito had them either.


Does *this* look like Izuna to you? 


And how would 100+ year old Izuna have super young hands like these?:












Don't say it's because they're Zetsu arms. If Zetsu goo can mimic the structure and skin color of the original arms, why not the physical texture of it?


----------



## Mateush (Jul 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Does *this* look like Izuna to you?



Pretty much if comparing with this:


Lol.


----------



## Roronoa Zoro (Jul 21, 2012)

iJutsu said:


> Link removed
> 
> Middle Panel. He's a nameless fodder.



Actually, he does have a name


----------



## Kage (Jul 21, 2012)

i don't really care but this has been a 'thing' on these forums for a long time.


----------



## NW (Jul 21, 2012)

I can't see the image but I can see "564" in the URL. I hate it when people take the "No One" line seriously, even if it's a joke.


----------



## BlinkST (Jul 21, 2012)

Zylos has been MIA ever since Zetsu got soloed


----------



## Tregis (Jul 21, 2012)

BlinkST said:


> Zylos has been MIA ever since Zetsu got soloed



I've noticed that.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Don't say it's because they're Zetsu arms. If Zetsu goo can mimic the structure and skin color of the original arms, why not the physical texture of it?



I'm not arguing your questions about Izuna, but about that Zetsu thing I'm pretty sure Tobi didn't only "grow" his arm. He may has some Zetsu inside him, but he grows new body parts from that Hashirama thing, so it's not  mimic ability.


----------



## WT (Jul 21, 2012)

Fail .........


----------



## Kyrie Eleison (Jul 21, 2012)

Zetsu's tissue may act as the base for a regenerative agent used during his unorthodox method of recovery.


----------



## Mateush (Jul 21, 2012)

Kyrie Eleison said:


> Zetsu's tissue may act as the base for a regenerative agent used during his unorthodox method of recovery.



It's possible, but Tobi's body replacements are fresh new cloned parts from the Hashirama thing. He is immortal, unless someone kills him lol.


----------



## momma bravo (Jul 21, 2012)

Mateush, you are a brave soul... however, with kishi's latest Resurrection fetishes, this could turn out very interesting.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 21, 2012)

Its not Obito. There are far too many inconsistencies. And you don't get much more dead than Obito was, half his body crushed before the entire cave collapsed on him. And Minato would have _recognized him_ during the attack if it was Obito. 

Not to mention that Tobi controlled Yagura, while Obito was still alive and kicking and Kisame recognized him.


----------



## kzk (Jul 21, 2012)

What would be the point? A Nagato that doesn't get TnJ'd?


----------



## Mateush (Jul 21, 2012)

momma bravo said:


> Mateush, you are a brave soul... however, with kishi's latest Resurrection fetishes, this could turn out very interesting.



Meh I know that I do have the chance to win, however I can't understand why serious tobito believers don't take that bet. In their eyes it should be free money.


----------



## Ichiurto (Jul 22, 2012)

It does kind of fit. But why does Tobi lord of Zetsu? If they are the same being..

We know very little about Black Zetsu (Actually, we know nothing). I wonder if it's Black Half = Madara's DNA, White Half = Hashirama's DNA..


----------



## daschysta (Jul 22, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> How does the Obito theory make sense if Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan & Nagato is older than Minato who is around 20 years or so years older than Obito? The timeline in this regard is simply ridiculous.
> 
> The only thing against most other theories is how said character would even be relevant. Kishi has said for a long time now that 'this is Kakashi's year' practically every year. Some Tobito theorists would use this as an excuse, when Kishi himself is admitting that he's not using Kakashi as he wish he could have or wanted to. Hint hint, Obito being Tobi holds a lesser stance now. But SOME Tobito fans would still use this as an excuse.



That isn't what Kishi implied at all. He said that he said some years ago that it was going to be a focus on Kakashi, but since the story moved slower than he expected he hasn't been able to. He said this while qualifying a statement regarding the fact that he has knowledge essentially of everything that is going to happen except for a few things. 

AKA he still is going to have Kakashi's focus, it just hasn't happened yet because the story is taking longer than he thought.


----------



## HakuGaara (Jul 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> My post(the long one a few posts above) and Sutol's post here, should be enough to convince any rational-minded, non biased person that Obito is the most likely Tobi candidate. Even if you still don't like the theory for some reason you should still accept the theory as plausible.



It's not plausible because:

A: It doesn't make any logical sense timeline-wise or character wise.

B: You don't have any actual facts to support your theory. You're basically pushing forth mere circumstantial evidence and trying to present it as irrefutable proof. 

Conclusion - You're putting forth a theory that goes against continuity logic and has no evidence to support it and then tell is there must be something wrong with *us* because we need more concrete evidence instead of just blindly believing what you've deluded yourself into believing.

Just let it die already. Even if by some weird chance you're correct, it doesn't excuse how desperate you're coming across as right now.


----------



## Easley (Jul 22, 2012)

Scizor said:


> How would Tobito theorists explain the bottom right panel on this page?
> 
> I'm not implying criticism per se, but I'd like to hear/read how Tobito theorists explain that panel, as Tobi had no reason to lie there and Obito cannot have fought the first Hokage.


This kind of writing looks contrived when you read it later. Was Kishi so fixated on his Madara twist that he makes Tobi spout nonsense? It also raises an interesting question, where did he get the Hashirama cells? From Madara?  I'd laugh if Tobi collected them in the aftermath of the fight. His 'tissue' on the ground perhaps? But no, it's easy to speculate without facts - not my style.

Tobi acting as Madara caused a lot of confusion. Many people don't believe a word he says. It was a mistake to write him like that, especially when he's given us important backstory and plot information. A known liar should not be relating this stuff.


----------



## Jiraiya4Life (Jul 22, 2012)

I mean, we'll see. The line just didn't seem to fit in with what had just happened to have been connected to the mask or gedou. It would be useless filler dialogue if it did in fact  allude to the two objects....and I'd think Kishi would be more professional as a writer.


----------



## Good Boy (Jul 22, 2012)

Concerning Tobi personally knowing Kakashi and Gai, I think we forgot this panel.

Tobi probably overheard this statement and later used it in the latest  chapter. 

Has there been any point where Kakashi openly expressed regret? (Possibly over teaching Sasuke)


----------



## Easley (Jul 22, 2012)

Good Boy said:


> Concerning Tobi personally knowing Kakashi and Gai, I think we forgot this panel.
> 
> Tobi probably overheard this statement and later used it in the latest  chapter.


Nice find! I'd totally forgotten about that line. 

"I'm not good at remembering people's faces. They all look the same to me"...  would certainly explain Tobi's comment to Gai. 

Is Tobi just being sarcastic though, or will Gai actually know him - if he remembered faces?



> Has there been any point where Kakashi openly expressed regret? (Possibly over teaching Sasuke)


It's possible... might need to check their previous encounters too.


----------



## KawaiiKyuubi (Jul 22, 2012)

Edotensai said:


> didn't Itachi get Mangekyo for killing Shisui? since Itachi had mangekyo when he was questioned for the murder of Shisui, doesn't that indicate that Shisui really had to be dead? or did I miss a change in story of how to get mangekyo?



They don't technically have to be dead/killed by the person who gets Mangekyo. The person simply has to experience  the loss as if they truly believed them to be dead. 

I'm more curious about how Shisui got HIS Mangekyo actually..


----------



## Mr. 0 (Jul 22, 2012)

jayjay32 said:


> Except we speak English and that doesn't make sense in English.


Exactly. He would have said "_it's_ something I absolutely cannot part with". Anyways I doubt his anonymity is very crucial at this point, especially since he's already initiated the war and is close to fulfilling his plan. He's just teasing them at this point.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Jul 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I did, it was madara and he took credit as he was pretending to be madara


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't even think you know what you wrote.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Actually, Obito would have been about 16 when the Bloody Mist started. It's not implausible.


lol that's how old he had to be to attack the leaf and take control of kurama after figuring out top secret info of who it was in. 

1. So, where was obito during the 2nd ninja war.....You know, when the whole akatsuki was formed and tobi giving nagato the rinningan? 

2. So, when did obito gain the rinningan to be able to give it to nagato(someone who's around the same age) during the *2ND NINJA WAR?*. 

3. Akatsuki was already forming before obito died and orochimaru was with them lol.

4. When did obito have time to read the uchiha tablet when he didn't even have his sharingan to learn about kurama?

5. How did obito know so much about itachi?

*You forget, all this stuff tobi did was before kakashi and obito were even ninjas lol. So who was running akatsuki while obito was getting killed by a rock?*

JUST LET IT GO PEOPLE LOL.. I don't believe in the fugaku theory either but you could connect things to him waaaay better than obito SMH. Tobi is somebody who knows the leaf well. That means the higher ups & young adults, ninja history, jutsu history, and well traveled.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 22, 2012)

insane111 said:


> If you asked a casual reader "hey, do you think Kagami could be Tobi?", they would reply with "Who?". Some random character that appeared in 1 panel shouldn't even be an option.



Yeah, but if you actually bother to study him, you would know that there is a little bit of points and evidence that can lead him to be Tobi.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Jul 22, 2012)

DelRappy said:


> Well, I don't know if this has been mentioned already in this thread, but I'm not sure if we can be sure that current Tobi is the same Tobi from those past events.
> 
> He said himself that he's no one and that Madara is his ideology. It could be that many people have been the masked man. That would open up not only Obito, but several other characters as possible Tobi identities; even ones that have died way before this war.
> 
> Uchiha, or even non-Uchiha, which have embraced the cause of ending the Senju dictatorship, dissolving their selves by wearing a mask and living for an ideal.


now this is the most sane obito theory I've seen lol. Only problem with this is that they all would have to have the same eye jutsu. Tobi has a 1 of a kind set of sharingan jutsu.


----------



## Revolution (Jul 22, 2012)

The something he cannot part with is what he is protecting.  The 10 tails.


----------



## Jikayaki (Jul 22, 2012)

handsock said:


> I support any and all theories thank you very much.



Go right ahead it just is getting a little silly with Tobito.


----------



## Revolution (Jul 22, 2012)

Is it even worth looking for PLOTHOLES when Nagato can BRING BACK THE DEAD and never brought back his dead best friend, his very source of hatred at not being able to bring back?


----------



## Jikayaki (Jul 22, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nothing specifically wrong with coincidence based theories so many of them in regards to the manga have come true. I don't like using them, but individuals have gotten lucky. My main issue with Obito is the holes within the theory both related to his age and the issues that really can't be resolved without having someone other than Madara behind him.

Science is ultimately constrained by our point of reference. That's why there are several different theories competing with the Big Bang Theory including the Big Bonce Theory, but that hardly has anything to do with theories about material from a manga.

The Kagami theory is no more a paint job than the Obito theory. The difference being Kagami is as you say a blank slate character. We can still see, if we speculate, how Tobi's persona could of come to be through the events Kagami could have lived through. Obito was a brash over confident loser basically a Uchiha version of early Naruto. It takes leaps in logic to take that character's persona and turn it into Tobi.

Appeal from the audience or specifically one fan group is a poor excuse to support a theory. Depending on how its handed a Izuna or Kagami reveal would be strong. Izuna being Madara's brother would honestly be the best reveal, though would require dues ex machina. The only element particularly strong regarding an Obito reveal is the betrayal it would mean to Kakashi and hardly any other character.



shintebukuro said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wouldn't rank the audience's investment with Obito too high either. He was a minor background character that was died rather quickly after he was introduced. Kagami is simply easily missed in comparison.

I would by no means call the holes in Tobito small. They're gigantic and have quite the range of topics from his age, position, apparent death, ext. In comparison lack of audience investment in Kagami is rather small. It would be hard to sell the backstory to the audience, but not impossible and I think of Tobi as Madara's Kabuto anyway.


----------



## Golden Circle (Jul 22, 2012)

Yeah, Zetsu is probably more than just black and white. He's also green.


----------



## Rinnegan Zetsu (Jul 22, 2012)

I still think Shisui is Tobi.


----------



## Golden Circle (Jul 22, 2012)

For the record, I never liked the Tobito theory from the beginning. Just like AL=Yondaime, it requires too little thought to fit with Kishimoto's plot.





DelRappy said:


> Well, I don't know if this has been mentioned already in this thread, but I'm not sure if we can be sure that current Tobi is the same Tobi from those past events.
> 
> He said himself that he's no one and that Madara is his ideology. It could be that many people have been the masked man. That would open up not only Obito, but several other characters as possible Tobi identities; even ones that have died way before this war.
> 
> Uchiha, or even non-Uchiha, which have embraced the cause of ending the Senju dictatorship, dissolving their selves by wearing a mask and living for an ideal.


I've been mentioning that in off-hand comments for the last few weeks or so.


----------



## Yuna (Jul 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Obito ties up the most loose ends and also fits with all of Kishi's themes. I can't be bothered to explain them all yet again but here are a few.
> 
> All the main villains in the series have been from a different generation spawning from the beginning of Ninja villages.
> 
> ...


Zabuza, the villain of the first arc of the series is of Kakashi's generation. In face, they were the exact same age.-


----------



## Tazmo (Jul 22, 2012)

This thread is now closed it has a continuation thread *Here*


----------

