# Merlin (NnT) vs Zeref



## Jackalinthebox (Oct 10, 2016)

Location: random desert
Knowledge: basic
Mindset: IC with intent to kill

Scenario 1: no bfr or timestop
Scenario 2: anything goes 

Heard Merlin got some upgrades not too long ago. How does this fight play out?


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 10, 2016)

well pretty much: how does time stop fairs against someone who stopped his own time?


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## Zhen Chan (Oct 10, 2016)

merlin ports him 40 km into the earths crust

hes gets squelched


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 10, 2016)

What is her dc sitting at? And what's the limits of her bfr? I heard small island I think


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 10, 2016)

The limit of her BFR are people above Mach 1800-3600, more so Mach 3600

She is city level with magic power output and can affect likely small island to island level people with her other hax outside of BFR 

Her perfect cube barrier withstands and reflects at least island level attacks


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 10, 2016)

Been a few months since I've read any of NnT really, has it been established where they get ported to? 

So it seems the second scenario would end with Zeref getting bfr'd since Merlin has a speed advantage. What about the first one though? With timestop and bfr restricted, would she still have enough to put him down?


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## EternalRage (Oct 10, 2016)

I still think that Zeref's death predation isn't an NLF 

but apparently if is, Merlin destroys him

actually I think she destroys him either way, lol shes too hax.

A better match would be Irene vs Merlin since Irene has her share of hax too


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 10, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> I still think that Zeref's death predation isn't an NLF
> 
> but apparently if is, Merlin destroys him
> 
> ...


Irene is kinda lacking in feats, unless that's changed in the past few chapters. She hasn't shown much the would be useful in 1v1 combat yet. 

Zeref doesn't have many feats either, but he's still used timestop, teleportation, TK, death magic and regen


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## EternalRage (Oct 10, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Irene is kinda lacking in feats, unless that's changed in the past few chapters. She hasn't shown much the would be useful in 1v1 combat yet.
> 
> Zeref doesn't have many feats either, but he's still used timestop, teleportation, TK, death magic and regen


All of Zeref's hax feats are irrelevant to merlin tho


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## Dr. White (Oct 11, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Been a few months since I've read any of NnT really, has it been established where they get ported to?
> 
> So it seems the second scenario would end with Zeref getting bfr'd since Merlin has a speed advantage. What about the first one though? With timestop and bfr restricted, would she still have enough to put him down?


No buddy. Let me give you the real scaling.

Merlin is now Mach 1800 with atleast small island (case can 100% be made for Island given context of her existence) level scaling thanks to her fodderizing of Greyroad with a wind spell that had some transmutation hax.

Even without time stop and transmutation hax she has negation magic which stopped the likes of small island level barriers,  life hax (the spell that turns Gowther from doll to human), and negated Greyroad's sensory deprivation hax spell. So that along with elemental mastery, illusions which affect all senses and teleportation of herself and objects (you only restricted BFR), and shapeshifting of herself and others. 

From what I gather she wins unrestricted and loses restricted but still has chances in the latter.


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 11, 2016)

What dr white tried to formulate in such fancy words is just her regular magic cancel ability as well as her already known perfect cube 

Where does the illusions come from?


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

Yeah, Im not sure Merlin has enough firepower to win in the restricted scenario. Zeref's been shown to have decent durability and he has regen as well. Unless she has some other hax I don't know about, I'm thinking Zeref outlasts her in the first scenario


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 11, 2016)

merlin could very well just chill in her perfect cube to avoid being hit in the first place

im just curious where illusion magic comes from for her?


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

I have no idea about the illusions

If her perfect cube is only small island level, then Zeref should be able to bust it. Depends on who you scale him from


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## Yak (Oct 11, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> merlin could very well just chill in her perfect cube to avoid being hit in the first place
> 
> im just curious where illusion magic comes from for her?



I assume this refers to her Camelot army feat.

Which was never really proven to be an illusion, it was just what Hendricksen assumed at the time because he could not imagine someone capable of teleporting an entire army in an instant. Similar to this, even Vivian had trouble thinking of someone who could outclass her in teleportation range and speed. We now know that this is very well within Merlin's capabilities based on scaling and the last chapters alone. 

So chances are it was no illusion in the first place but she legit teleportated the entire Camelot army for show and to grab attention.


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 11, 2016)

perfect cube is definetly island level with the full 23GT scaling. guys like galan got all their damage reflected and she was not worried about fraudrin commiting cell-like suicide


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## Akira1993 (Oct 11, 2016)

Merlin, no contest, Infinity is too broken.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

Guess it would come down to how negligible you think the difference between 8 gt's and 23 gt's is. Though it's not guaranteed she would resort to sitting in perfect cube quick enough each fight


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 11, 2016)

she pretty much builds perfect cube during an approaching attack from galan. its not passive, but also nothing which needs any amount of prep.

perfect cube aside the fight is more interesting tho


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## Akira1993 (Oct 11, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Guess it would come down to how negligible you think the difference between 8 gt's and 23 gt's is. Though it's not guaranteed she would resort to sitting in perfect cube *quick enough *each fight


Merlin is faster and has better defense and hax than him.


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 11, 2016)

im still doubtful grayroad gets any speed scaling

meaning merlin likely also would not get it


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Merlin is faster and has better defense and hax than him.


Zeref has higher dc, better durability and isn't exactly lacking in the hax department. Plus the gap between Mach 1200 and 1800 isn't that large. I think the fight is at least decently close


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## Akira1993 (Oct 11, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Zeref has higher dc, better durability and isn't exactly lacking in the hax department. Plus the gap between Mach 1200 and 1800 isn't that large. I think the fight is at least decently close


His DC is useless against perfect cube, his hax is useless against infinity and BFR technique, the gap between 1200 and 1800 is enough for Merlin to have the edge in speed ( no blitz but still slightly faster and that is enough ) and to snap her finger ( that is all she need lol ).


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 11, 2016)

i repeat, i doubt grayroad / merlin get even the mach 1800 scaling, let alone the mach 3600


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## Akira1993 (Oct 11, 2016)

Same as I doubt Zeref get the mach 1200 scaling from the dragon speed but eh....

It's only me here who have that view.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

If she were to just never leave the barrier, wouldn't she eventually run out of magic? Guess we'd probably have to know how much mp Perfect Cube consumes though 

How fast would Merlin be without the Mach 1800 scaling? If she's the slower of the two, he could potentially grab her with his TK or cast Law before she creates Perfect Cube


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## Akira1993 (Oct 11, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> If she were to just never leave the barrier, wouldn't she eventually run out of magic? Guess we'd probably have to know how much mp Perfect Cube consumes though
> 
> How fast would Merlin be without the Mach 1800 scaling? If she's the slower of the two, he could potentially grab her with his TK or cast Law before she creates Perfect Cube


Naw, she only need to cast a spell once, and it remains for all eternity, you really need to catch up taizai buddy.
Personally, I think she get easily the mach 1800 scaling. Why ?
Because, she can easily react to Full Size mode Fraudin and have time to put instantly everyone into her perfect cube :  


By the way, she saved hendy there, and that Fraundin is easily mach 1800 from Galand.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Naw, she only need to cast a spell once, and it remains for all eternity, you really need to catch up taizai buddy.
> Personally, I think she get easily the mach 1800 scaling. Why ?
> Because, she can easily react to Full Size mode Fraudin and have time to put instantly everyone into her perfect cube :
> 
> ...


Okay, so either Zeref gets to her before she puts up Perfect Cube, or it's a draw. Zeref is immortal and Merlin is too if I'm not mistaken, which would mean they'd be locked in an eternity long staring contest


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## Akira1993 (Oct 11, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Okay, so either Zeref gets to her before she puts up Perfect Cube, or it's a draw. Zeref is immortal and Merlin is too if I'm not mistaken, which would mean they'd be locked in an eternity long staring contest


Well that is impossible buddy, whatever scenario, a character with mach 1200 can't outspeed a mach 1800, but the latter slightly can, and remember, all she need is to snap a finger, no punch, no kick.
Merlin can still play with him by BFR him for all eternity, until Zeref supply to stop this madness, really she have the means to make him say " I give up ".


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## Akira1993 (Oct 11, 2016)

Really, I understand why Meliodas doesn't want her as an enemy now.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Well that is impossible buddy, whatever scenario, a character with mach 1200 can't outspeed a mach 1800, but the latter slightly can, and remember, all she need is to snap a finger, no punch, no kick.
> Merlin can still play with him by BFR him for all eternity, until Zeref supply to stop this madness, really she have the means to make him say " I give up ".


I was saying if Raven is right and she is actually slower than Mach 1800, he'd have a better shot at taking her down before Perfect Cube comes out. Not that she'd even use it at the beginning of every fight. 

Wouldn't that be counterproductive? She'd end up exhausting her magic before Zeref would ever break. The dude has gone through much worse, he wouldn't concede like that


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 11, 2016)

merlins magic not really has to worry about being exhausted due to the entire magic being "infinity"


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

She'd be releasing her bfr and casting it again if she were to try and make him insane by constantly teleporting him

Still have my doubts that Merlin would cast Perfect Cube immediately after the fight begins and camp in it the whole time. She has killing intent, but will instead aim for a draw every single match?


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

Zeref gets scaled to Mach 1200, but that's it. He can also teleport though, he could just leave her range if he wanted. 

I wonder if Irene's Universe 1 or whatever that bfr spell is called would effectively port Merlin out of Perfect Cube


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## Akira1993 (Oct 11, 2016)

@RavenSupreme; 

Where this mach 3600 came from and which character benefit it in NNT ?


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 11, 2016)

copying:

no feat got upgraded actually.

the major part of contention was that merlin has a different radius for different spells. people contested that her teleport in that scene has the same radius as shown in the vampire of edingburgh special. which we finally settled on to use with its 186 miles radius. calc is here



and the panel of contestion was this


*Spoiler*: __ 





[/IMG]





with the recent official translation the entire thing gets a different meaning tho since its not a spell radius, but merlins sphere of magical influence as a whole. not distinguished between spells.


*Spoiler*: __ 











and we have ~2 calcs which put her magic influence at around 350 miles. the high end is also part of the original calc but was not used until now, due to the contestion i mentioned already


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## Akira1993 (Oct 11, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> copying:
> 
> no feat got upgraded actually.
> 
> ...


In short, the high end which was mach 3600 is applicable now, and only the top dog benefit it.
Can you give me all the characters which according to you, can be scaled to mach 3600 ?


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 11, 2016)

esta, zeldris, derriere, dolor, glox, CO galan, monspiet(?), full size fraudrin


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## EternalRage (Oct 11, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Zeref gets scaled to Mach 1200, but that's it. He can also teleport though, he could just leave her range if he wanted.
> 
> I wonder if Irene's Universe 1 or whatever that bfr spell is called would effectively port Merlin out of Perfect Cube


?? why wouldn't it be able to


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 11, 2016)

It is no geological occurance which can be compressed. 

If anything, Merlin gets BFRd including the cube as a whole


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

Forgot that the magic was set up that way. Don't know where he could bfr her too, then again where could she bfr him that would do her any good?


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 11, 2016)

Not really thought about it. BFR usually qualifies as a win if the opponent has no way to get back in the fight. If Zeref has long range teleportation on his own it's pretty much useless 

She very well however can trap him under a perfect cube


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## Dr. White (Oct 11, 2016)

Merlin gets the speed scaling. It's like you guys don't know how to read context.  She is a top dog in the NNT verse and her win vs Greyroad confirmed it (before there was ambiguity about her overall level so nothing could be argued). The reason she isn't gung ho about being like Mel and helping out is obviously because of her suspect attitude (which is why Mel is wary of her). Greyroad def gets atleast mach 1800 scaling, why wouldn't he? Merascylla does and likewise is not a physical fighter yet reliant on hax. Merlin snapped her finger and caught a fleeing greyroad and her actual identity made Fraudrin shit himself. 

Galan vs everyone was obviously done at a time where Nakaba was making the 10C op as fuck. Merlin underestimated his speed and he ganked her at close range. She also could BFR'd herself away but she was trying to protect everyone there which is why she lied to activate his commandment.

On topic her reaction speed should be mach 1800, it nonsense to say she's not even somewhat on par with the 10C when they specifically were marvelling at how big her magic power must be to effect the fabric of reality with infinity. Putting her on mach 277 despite fodderizing Greyroad and making fraudrin cry, keeps her with the likes of Diane, Howzer, Gil, Threader, etc. She's clearly playing bigger leagues via feats and portrayal.


Jackalinthebox said:


> Zeref has higher dc, better durability and isn't exactly lacking in the hax department. Plus the gap between Mach 1200 and 1800 isn't that large. I think the fight is at least decently close


Merlin is going to rape him with infinity and BFR. That much is known.

In the first scenario she has elemental spells somewhere between 2GT-23 GT, she can negate a shit ton of his magic, trap him in perfect cube, etc.

She also has telekinesis, and limiting her BFR doesn't change the fact she can casually teleport herself from danger teleport attacks, reidrect attacks, and use her spatial manipulation for the latter to boot. Even without infinity her reserves are high enough to effect time which means she has beastly reserves.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Merlin gets the speed scaling. It's like you guys don't know how to read context.  She is a top dog in the NNT verse and her win vs Greyroad confirmed it (before there was ambiguity about her overall level so nothing could be argued). The reason she isn't gung ho about being like Mel and helping out is obviously because of her suspect attitude (which is why Mel is wary of her). Greyroad def gets atleast mach 1800 scaling, why wouldn't he? Merascylla does and likewise is not a physical fighter yet reliant on hax. Merlin snapped her finger and caught a fleeing greyroad and her actual identity made Fraudrin shit himself.
> 
> Galan vs everyone was obviously done at a time where Nakaba was making the 10C op as fuck. Merlin underestimated his speed and he ganked her at close range. She also could BFR'd herself away but she was trying to protect everyone there which is why she lied to activate his commandment.
> 
> ...


Not sure how their respective versions of timestop would react to eachother, that might end up playing an important role. They seem kinda different tbh 

Merlin has TK? My memory really is shitty, I didn't even remember her having that. Zeref's shown the ability to use omnidirectional TK to crush people, but that's about it. He might've used it one other time to grab something maybe

Zeref hasn't displayed mastery over all the elements like Merlin has, but he had decent firepower. Fire magic, finger beams, death orbs, death waves, death pillars and light magic. His AoE isn't the greatest with most of those abilities, but the range of his light magic covered an entire town/ small city

Based on what you said about Merlin, stamina shouldn't play too big a part. Zeref is hyped to have the highest reserves out of anyone in his verse that isn't part dragon or whatever. They should both be fine in that department


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## Akira1993 (Oct 11, 2016)

Merlin obviously get stronger during that time skip, even Fraudin and Grayroad commented about her incredible magic power.
Her portrayal seems solid, very solid. ( her name alone is terrifying )


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## Dr. White (Oct 11, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Not sure how their respective versions of timestop would react to eachother, that might end up playing an important role. They seem kinda different tbh


what is the nature of his timestop? If he only stops his own time it would be weaker. as Merlin's infinity works on herself and her spells and is hyped as indefinite.



> Merlin has TK? My memory really is shitty, I didn't even remember her having that. Zeref's shown the ability to use omnidirectional TK to crush people, but that's about it. He might've used it one other time to grab something maybe


She used it to zip Mamma hawk and company around Fat albion.

She also gets Bend room (via teaching Vivian everything) which is spatial manipulation.



> Zeref hasn't displayed mastery over all the elements like Merlin has, but he had decent firepower. Fire magic, finger beams, death orbs, death waves, death pillars and light magic. His AoE isn't the greatest with most of those abilities, but the range of his light magic covered an entire town/ small city


Merlin should have good AOE with her combined elemental spell given what Vivian could do. Other than that she has fire and water dragons, so AOE is pretty even give or take.



> Based on what you said about Merlin, stamina shouldn't play too big a part. Zeref is hyped to have the highest reserves out of anyone in his verse that isn't part dragon or whatever. They should both be fine in that department


Negation magic is going to be a bitch for Zeref Imo. Also can he fly?

Also her teleportation magic (to teleport herself or objects) is something hard to deal with for him.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> what is the nature of his timestop? If he only stops his own time it would be weaker. as Merlin's infinity works on herself and her spells and is hyped as indefinite.
> 
> 
> She used it to zip Mamma hawk and company around Fat albion.
> ...


His timestop presumably affected around 100+ people and had an area of a town sized structure. He can also choose to let others move freely in his timestop 

Has she negated any attacks from the stronger members of the 10C? If so, then yeah it might be a problem for him. His magic is kinda unique though, all the death stuff is useable because of the curse put on him. So Merlin wouldn't be able to copy it for instance, well without repercussions at least. 

He's never shown flight that I'm aware of. 

Zeref has a couple different types of teleportation, and he also possesses Irene's Universe 1 Spell that has country(?) level range. He'd be able to use it more effectively than her since he can tank attacks and still concentrate on casting magic. Don't know if sending Merlin to the bottom of an ocean would help much though


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## Dr. White (Oct 11, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> His timestop presumably affected around 100+ people and had an area of a town sized structure. He can also choose to let others move freely in his timestop


Ok well it's pretty much AOE vs conceptual control. Zeref seems to have effect over a certain area of time in which he reigns supreme (similar to Law and spatial manipulation) while Merlin can keep herself alive and unaffected by time abiltieis (Greyroads), and can keep spells frozen for long periods of time and without being there (such as Greyroads frozen eggs). 

So stopping the time of a person who acts outside of stopped time isn't really gonna do much to her. Where as he can be frozen in forever Ice, kept in a forever storm, and burnt with forever flames.



> Has she negated any attacks from the stronger members of the 10C? If so, then yeah it might be a problem for him. His magic is kinda unique though, all the death stuff is useable because of the curse put on him. So Merlin wouldn't be able to copy it for instance, well without repercussions at least.


She negated Vivian's casting of Perfect cube (perfect cube doesn't change in durabilty between casting), She negated the life magic that animates Gowther, and she negated Greyroads sensory ability which strips a consciousness of the five senses, and GR has a really high magic power level.



> He's never shown flight that I'm aware of.


That's a hurt piece especially with her teleportation magic.

Can other people in verse use TK to fly since you mentioned he has TK?



> Zeref has a couple different types of teleportation, and he also possesses Irene's Universe 1 Spell that has country(?) level range. He'd be able to use it more effectively than her since he can tank attacks and still concentrate on casting magic. Don't know if sending Merlin to the bottom of an ocean would help much though


How casual is his teleportation? Merlin needs a finger snap, and has even casted while in astral form. She also gave a BFR user in Vivian the BFR treatment, so that's a good feat for how fast and casual she is with it even vs a beast teleportation user.

Sending her there wouldn't help. Her best quantified feat is 300miles, and she was sending Vivian to different parts of the world acroos climates regions, casually, just to troll her. Vivian had sent Mel and co to a forest so far and forgotten that they would never escape, which Dreyfus agreed with, only to have Merlin cast them back. In fact one fo the places she sent vivian was the middle of an ocean before casually sending her back to another climate region.


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## EternalRage (Oct 11, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> So stopping the time of a person who acts outside of stopped time isn't really gonna do much to her. Where as he can be frozen in forever Ice, kept in a forever storm, and burnt with forever flames.


Merlin stopped her own time, meaning she can't age, it has nothing to do with her being able to move in stopped time. And Zeref wont die from any of those, he's immortal.



Dr. White said:


> Can other people in verse use TK to fly since you mentioned he has TK?


Irene.



Dr. White said:


> How casual is his teleportation? Merlin needs a finger snap, and has even casted while in astral form. She also gave a BFR user in Vivian the BFR treatment, so that's a good feat for how fast and casual she is with it even vs a beast teleportation user.


Zeref stands still and a black orb appears and he slowly comes out. His range is continental.


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## Dr. White (Oct 11, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> Merlin stopped her own time, meaning she can't age, it has nothing to do with her being able to move in stopped time. And Zeref wont die from any of those, he's immortal.


What category of immortal is he>=? Merlin literally cannot die because her time cannot be effected.

She isn't stopping her bodies natural aging process, she's literally stopping time from effecting her making it infinty (aka static). Greyroads commandment is hax spell that removes the remaining time from anyone who kills. She was unaffected and therefore outside the scope of time.

Once again, how is he gonna time stop someone who isn't being effected by time?



> Irene.


So can Zeref be scaled to such a feat?




> Zeref stands still and a black orb appears and he slowly comes out. His range is continental.


Sounds less casual. Sort of like portal hopping.  His range is nice though, although if he doesn't have clairvoyance or sensing enough to get back his range wouldn't matter (I don't know if he does or not).[/QUOTE]


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## EternalRage (Oct 11, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> She isn't stopping her bodies natural aging process, she's literally stopping time from effecting her making it infinty (aka static). Greyroads commandment is hax spell that removes the remaining time from anyone who kills. She was unaffected and therefore outside the scope of time.



I just re-read the chapter rn, Merlin said it herself, "taking the remaining years away from someone." 

So she stopped her time, but someone needs too much magic power to keep their time stopped for a long period of time, for Merlin, her magic power is infinite, so, her time is infinitely stopped. Or she stopped aging. It doesn't mean anything else



Dr. White said:


> What category of immortal is he>=?


If you chop off his head he'll still be living and he will probably regenerate it 

He took a 7 GT (likely higher) punch and regenerated in a single panel

the only way he can die is with Natsu's flames, or turning his body to dust



Dr. White said:


> Merlin literally cannot die because her time cannot be effected.


She can die if someone hits her physically hard enough



Dr. White said:


> So can Zeref be scaled to such a feat?


Can't say 100% but he probably does, August has every element of magic and Zeref is apparently the only one under him


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

His immortality is kinda weird. He can survive being decapitated and his death wave passively protects him in a way. The curse also makes him automatically regen after he receives a decent bit of damage. Zeref was cursed by a God and his curse was powerful enough to kill someone else who was immortal 

A few hundred miles wouldn't be out of range for him I don't think. He has multiple feats of sensing people from cities away


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

Merlin's profile says her durability is only small city level, that would be a hurter for her. If she doesn't have her cube up she could get TK crushed, hit with a death wave or roasted by Law. 

Seems as though it's a good thing Perfect Cube isn't restricted. It's definitely a major help here


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## Dr. White (Oct 11, 2016)

That scaling was when her magic level was just under 5,000 which clearly isn't the case now that her true nature has been revealed.

Good luck hitting her as well. What doesn't get negated She can just redirect stuff and herself with spatial manipulation and teleportation. Not to mention her stuff is more casual, she has flight, and is faster on the draw.


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## EternalRage (Oct 11, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> So once again, how is Zeref affecting an area of time (and freezing those without specific resistance like Merlin) going to affect Merlin aka someone who exist with her time set to infiinty (once again aka static)


Merlin can't move where time is stopped, you can't move without a time frame, that would make your speed immeasurable. Obviously no one in NNT has immeasurable speed , so, unless she has an ability to negate time stop she's gonna be frozen.

I'm guessing the way others move during time-stop is because they start time wherever they walk to. Even if Merlin's heart is beating and she can talk and think she will probably be frozen in place. She stopped her own time, not time around her.



Dr. White said:


> That's cool she can burn him, freeze him, spin him, etc for all of time by applying infinity to it. So he burns out his regen, stays frozen, or lives in a tornado until Merlin's infinity stops.


Burning out his regen? Never heard of a case like that 



Dr. White said:


> Nope. Mindfuck, soulfuck, petrification, timefucked, spatially fucked, etc. His regen has a limit, he's not NLF.


I meant regenerating from physical/magic attacks, the things you listed he obviously can't regen from unless he has an immunity



Dr. White said:


> Between the threat of her own hax, magic negation, teleportation, Perfect cube, and time hax that is not going to come by very easily.



Can she dispel magic from a range? I'd like to see her try touching death magic 

can she attack from the inside of perfect cube? if not zeref and merlin will be fighting infinitely


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## Dr. White (Oct 11, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> Merlin can't move where time is stopped, you can't move without a time frame, that would make your speed immeasurable. Obviously no one in NNT has immeasurable speed , so, unless she has an ability to negate time stop she's gonna be frozen.


Yes she can, she isn't affected by his time stop because her time is already stopped. You're literally just making stuff up at this point. She already resisted an attempt to forcefully speed up her time which had no effect, because her time is static. Making time around her static won't help.



> I'm guessing the way others move during time-stop is because they start time wherever they walk to. Even if Merlin's heart is beating and she can talk and think she will probably be frozen in place. She stopped her own time, not time around her.


Lmao what?
 The whole immeasurable thing is stupid. Dio from the world literally stops all time in the globe, you saying he has immeasurable speed as he moves through it? Time is a measure of change in space, Merlin stopped her time and can stop it in regards to her spells by casting infinity (a time stopping spell). Why would stopping time around her keep her frozen if she already is in regards to time? Others are frozen and rendered immobile because they don't exist in a state of stopped time.




> Burning out your regen? Her magic power would burn out first.


No it wouldn't. Merlin alters time around things so her flames would burn until time stopped, she stopped it, or someone else dispelled her infinity or the flames.

His regen is dependant on the source of the regen and it;s highest level stamina showing which I doubt is > infinity.



> Can she dispel magic from a range? I'd like to see her try touching death magic


IF she negates it before it can affect her than it won't be a problem.



> can she attack from the inside of perfect cube? if not zeref and merlin will be fighting infinitely


I'd guess she could use stuff like spatial manipulation, Ice coffin and the like, but not anything projectile. Although idk because the conjurer of perfect cube is said to be able to dictate was passes through so I'd wager odds are in her favor, and she also has more versatile re directs than him.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

TK crush would probably be a good counter for Merlin's Negation magic.  He can use it to casually kill characters who are at least small city level


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## EternalRage (Oct 11, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> IF she negates it before it can affect her than it won't be a problem.


If she is fast enough to negate it before she dies



Dr. White said:


> Although idk because the conjurer of perfect cube is said to be able to dictate was passes through so I'd wager odds are in her favor, and she also has more versatile re directs than him.


statements > feats
---
Will Merlin teleport away if she see's a dark wave coming towards her? or try to negate it?

and can intangible things go through perfect cube? or will it reflect everything? including ghosts, intangible attacks, etc


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## Dr. White (Oct 11, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> TK crush would probably be a good counter for Merlin's Negation magic.  He can use it to casually kill characters who are at least small city level


Why wouldn't she just counter it back?



EternalRage said:


> If she is fast enough to negate it before she dies


She's faster and her spells are more casual.



> statements > feats
> ---
> Will Merlin teleport away if she see's a dark wave coming towards her? or try to negate it?


No clue.



> and can intangible things go through perfect cube? or will it reflect everything? including ghosts, intangible attacks, etc


It is summoned from the demon world and only allows entry/exit to the caster and things the caster accepts. So ghost? Probably would block just like spirits and demons, but intangible attacks it would depend on the attack, unless you mean "inatngible" ina sense like energy, magic, fire, etc.


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## Iwandesu (Oct 11, 2016)

> Irene is kinda lacking in feats, unless that's changed in the past few chapters. She hasn't shown much the would be useful in 1v1 combat yet.


She stalemated human acnologia 
I mean what ?


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Oct 11, 2016)

How can she counter it if her body is restricted? She needs to place her hands over a spell to negate it as far as I'm aware 

Irene's enchantment magic looks pretty op, but she's only shown one or two offensive spells besides stuff she used against fodder. Though tbh; her feat of pushing Acnologia back >> anything Zeref has shown on panel so far


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## EternalRage (Oct 11, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> She's faster and her spells are more casual.


There is no decay, once you touch the death magic you die



Dr. White said:


> It is summoned from the demon world and only allows entry/exit to the caster and things the caster accepts. So ghost? Probably would block just like spirits and demons, but intangible attacks it would depend on the attack, unless you mean "inatngible" ina sense like energy, magic, fire, etc.




a death wave wouldn't really fall under any of that

and it's a curse not magic

would it let  in?


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## Dr. White (Oct 11, 2016)

Pretty sure. In NNT they have something similar that the vampire King uses and Demons as well. That attack is still in energy form emanating from him.

@Jackalinthebox I was talking about countering it with Teleportation or Telekinesis of her own.


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## EternalRage (Oct 11, 2016)

it's a tie


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 12, 2016)

the merlin wank is ridicoulus


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 12, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> the merlin wank is ridicoulus


Care to elaborate? You're more than likely at least a bit more knowledgeable on the series than me. Haven't really read a chapter start to finish since Mel trashed Galan


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 12, 2016)

first of all, the durability scaling. durability is a clear physical thing. it does not matter how high your magic power is. the physical endurance/durability/damage soak/call it how you want is dependent from your physical might. merlin has the least physical power from any sin outside of king. while this might have changed over the timeskip, nothing indicates she has become a brawler.

so her durability, still hangs at small city level. its solely her barriers who benefit from her high magic power. (comparable to merascylla, who has island level barriers either but got crushed by base ban physically)
durability-> small city
barriers -> island level

second, she does not automatically gets every magic ever used by viviane just because viviane happened to be her student once. the last 10 years of the series viviane was on her own, not being teached shit by merlin, since merlin chilled in camelot and the entire sins crew was wanted for murder in liones.
meaning it is likely the "bend room" (the spatial attack redirection) and "4 element destroyer" (pure offensive technique), are techniques which only viviane can use. yes, maybe merlin has teached viviane these beforehand but the odds of viviane managing to get her own spells online over a 10 year long time are vast. merlin also never used any of these techniques in the series.

third, the timestop resistance. only because she stopped her own time does not mean she is free from any influence outside her own time. this is only my approach on it since it is a highly phylosophical topic but to me, bending the time to ones will in a great radius is worth more than just bending the time to oneself. in the end: merlin never resisted any form of timestop in her verse.

there is more but i am too lazy to add more atm. gonna continue later

Reactions: Informative 1


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## EternalRage (Oct 12, 2016)

Then Zeref wins


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 12, 2016)

I was wondering about the durability thing. NNT's power levels have a strength stat, so not sure why an increase in magic would boost anyone's physical durability. Besides, Merlin doesn't seem like the type to tank attacks, but I could be wrong 

I knew from the beginning that the timestop discrepancy would create problems. Personally, I'd say it's  debatable. Zeref's seemed really impressive to me since it was able to affect so many people, had such a large range, lasted a minute or two and was done casually.

Merlin's explanation of infinity kinda makes it sound like stopping time on a general level would require an insane amount of mp and that she's probably not capable of it. She instead focuses on making specific things immune to time. All that causes it to appear as though Zeref's timestop is a stronger spell in my eyes


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> I was wondering about the durability thing. NNT's power levels have a strength stat, so not sure why an increase in magic would boost anyone's physical durability. Besides, Merlin doesn't seem like the type to tank attacks, but I could be wrong
> 
> I knew from the beginning that the timestop discrepancy would create problems. Personally, I'd say it's  debatable. Zeref's seemed really impressive to me since it was able to affect so many people, had such a large range, lasted a minute or two and was done casually.
> 
> Merlin's explanation of infinity kinda makes it sound like stopping time on a general level would require an insane amount of mp and that she's probably not capable of it. She instead focuses on making specific things immune to time. All that causes it to appear as though Zeref's timestop is a stronger spell in my eyes


What is more impressive ? Stopping the time of many people in an unknown range *for a short period of time* or stopping the effect of time itself ( literally bending one of the law of the universe ) *for all the eternity.*
I wonder if you grasp the meaning of " eternity " here.
Merlin's age is over 3000 + and she didn't get a single wrinkle, and it is thanks to her unique magical ability " infinity ", no ultimate curse like Meliodas and Zeref, no fountain of youth like Ban, *just her own inherent magic* and this is how people react to that fact : 
Yes, broken and unfair. Merlin is indeed more impressive.


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## Dr. White (Oct 12, 2016)

Also yeah, DC wise she is definitely Island level given she destroyed some of Greyroads Mask with her ray (a feat which I forgot), that along with trapping him in a wind spell places her into that range for her magic. Her ray also hax an extremely large travel distance.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

The headache is really here.


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 12, 2016)

man you truly are triggered. i am going to respont later on, however for now i am just shaking my head over your conceited way of arguing


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## Dr. White (Oct 12, 2016)

Lmao, I am conceited? You come in here, call my arguments wank ,without explicitly quoting and responding to my points, and then say I'm arguing conceited?

My tone in response to you and Jackal are clearly different at the moment, because Jackal isn't just coming into threads, claiming my scaling wrong (and sometimes ignoring my arguments all together) and making up norms of scaling here. No hard feelings but I tend to use coarse language when debating someone with snark.


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 12, 2016)

do i have to remind you the last time you went into a "wall of text" debate with me over fraudrins scaling where you made shaky claims despite either on-panel contradictions or missing proof? did that went well for you?

you pinpoint certain aspects of a character while at the same time hoping no one double-checks your arguments. just like with the fraudrin example where half a page worth of arguments have been you insisting on how his demonic mark is a "boost" and how it means fraudrin in human form would get above city level scaling, until i showed you that he fought twice with activated demon mark and still lost to city level characters.

this here is no difference.

you are claiming things as fact, yet base these facts only of your own understanding of the series. not of on-panel prove.

and just the same is happening here


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## Dr. White (Oct 12, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> do i have to remind you the last time you went into a "wall of text" debate with me over fraudrins scaling where you made shaky claims despite either on-panel contradictions or missing proof? did that went well for you?


Lmao what shaky claims? I explained to you why it is stupid to say Fraudrin isn't atleast small island in dreyfus body and gave you multiple arguments for the scaling both meta and invserse. You didn't win that argument buddy so why are you bringing it up? 

Go check Fraudrin's OBD wiki, nevermind I got you.


Tell me what that profile says? If you disagree link where you brought this up to an OBD wiki member such as myself (I didn't put fraudrin at island level either) and where multiple agreed with your argument.

Until then *you* are the one fighting the uphill argument, here at NF.



> you pinpoint certain aspects of a character while at the same time hoping no one double-checks your arguments. just like with the fraudrin example where half a page worth of arguments have been you insisting on how his demonic mark is a "boost" and how it means fraudrin in human form would get above city level scaling, until i showed you that he fought twice with *activated demon mark and still lost to city level characters.*


And then I went and explained why those instances were non-sense and another instance of your ultra conservative stick to feats without context, clouding your judgment on an obviously stronger character than the ones you brought up to keep him scaled as such.





> you are claiming things as fact, yet base these facts only of your own understanding of the series. not of on-panel prove.
> 
> and just the same is happening here


Lmao Merlin infinity stuff is already linked, Databook stats are available, she has the portrayal which is canon, and the feats of fodderizing Greyroad.

All this coming to the guy who has yet to make a rebuttal to me directly in this thread.

Lmao, okay Raven.


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 12, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Lmao what shaky claims? I explained to you why it is stupid to say Fraudrin isn't atleast small island in dreyfus body and gave you multiple arguments for the scaling both meta and invserse. You didn't win that argument buddy so why are you bringing it up?
> 
> Go check Fraudrin's OBD wiki, nevermind I got you.
> 
> ...



i think its yak who updates the profiles. i can do it myself but have not bothered to touch the profiles. very well, i will open a respective thread regarding that matter.

my arguments make more sense than what you tried to claim so this wrong profile should be fixed soon enough.



Dr. White said:


> And then I went and explained why those instances were non-sense and another instance of your ultra conservative stick to feats without context, clouding your judgment on an obviously stronger character than the ones you brought up to keep him scaled as such.



referring to above



Dr. White said:


> Lmao Merlin infinity stuff is already linked, Databook stats are available, she has the portrayal which is canon, and the feats of fodderizing Greyroad.
> 
> All this coming to the guy who has yet to make a rebuttal to me directly in this thread.
> 
> Lmao, okay Raven.



infinity stuff linked? portrayal which is canon? where was she said knowing the techniques you mentioned? bend room? etc.?


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## Dr. White (Oct 12, 2016)

Lmao "I'm right you are wrong, be sure this will change soon" yet calls me conceited.

Followed by "Wait you made arguments? Where?". Read the thread dude. I made a holistic point on that subject. Read and respond to it all. I'm off to class, be back on later.


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 12, 2016)

i dont even know if i am arguing against you or if i am arguing against the OBD profile. so do you argue your point based the fact that it is written on the profile? because then hell yeha, it is conceited to no end "look it even stands here, you are wrong"

and because it appears to me that way i simply argue over the thing you brought to the table - the OBD profile. which is obviously wrong when looking at the facts presented, and not your subjective interpretation from them


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## Dr. White (Oct 12, 2016)

So yeah Jack I'm gonna change my opinion to Merlin winning both rounds. Although I think timestop and BFRless round is pretty close. She just has too much utility to lose here


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## EternalRage (Oct 12, 2016)

k I'm dropping myself from this thread


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## Brolypotence (Oct 12, 2016)

So who's winning?


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 12, 2016)

Brolypotence said:


> So who's winning?


Depends who you ask


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)




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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 12, 2016)

One thing I forgot; is that Zeref can enchant the atmosphere to basically telefrag fireballs. Irene used it against Acnologia and it was pointed out that she learned it from Zeref. That might be capable of bypassing Perfect Cube and her other barriers


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## Dr. White (Oct 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> One thing I forgot; is that Zeref can enchant the atmosphere to basically telefrag fireballs. Irene used it against Acnologia and it was pointed out that she learned it from Zeref. That might be capable of bypassing Perfect Cube and her other barriers


When Merlin tried to teleoort to the king Vivian had a perfect cube set up, and instead of teleporting inside they eneded up at the barrier border because Vivian is the caster and decided what was allowed or not.

So it stopped Merlins tele doubt it would allow Zeref. With her firepower and mobility advantage advantage perfect cube is more like a last resort, or trap type move here.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 12, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> When ?


After Irene used the move against Acno he stated that it was impressive she had learned it from Zeref.



Dr. White said:


> When Merlin tried to teleoort to the king Vivian had a perfect cube set up, and instead of teleporting inside they eneded up at the barrier border because Vivian is the caster and decided what was allowed or not.
> 
> So it stopped Merlins tele doubt it would allow Zeref. With her firepower and mobility advantage advantage perfect cube is more like a last resort, or trap type move here.


It isn't sending something into the cube though. It's altering something that's already there. A bit different

Merlin isn't so much faster that Zeref would be unable to counter or occasionally dodge her ranged attacks. Their firepower is about equal as far I'm concerned really, but Zeref has the edge in durability. 

Even if her durability did increase, I don't see why it would jump from small city to island when her dc didn't even increase that much. Her stats would be focused more around  magic and I don't remember anyone ever bringing up any physical feats by Merlin. Zeref got hit with a half dozen attacks from a bloodlusted island buster and only had some small burns and bruises


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> After Irene used the move against Acno he stated that it was impressive she had learned it from Zeref.


Fair enough.


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## Dr. White (Oct 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> It isn't sending something into the cube though. It's altering something that's already there. A bit different


Gonna have to disagree. That's exactly what teleportation is. It is swapping of spacetime. Which is why Law can teleport with room. It is not travel. Perfect cube acted as a firewall and redirected her outside of the barrier. He has to use his magic energy to accomplish such and should "cordoned off" from influencing that area so to speak.



> Merlin isn't so much faster that Zeref would be unable to counter or occasionally dodge her ranged attacks. Their firepower is about equal as far I'm concerned really, but Zeref has the edge in durability.


Yeah but like I said it is her combat utility that, when in tandem with speed advantage ,gives her the edge. HEr teleportation/BFR is much more casual, she can fly, she has TK and Bend room to redirect, transmutation, Illusions to mess with his perception, can Negate magic effects, has Barriers of all sorts and sizes, portals, and can even switch her soul into Aldan in the event of emergency and still cast spells such as teleportation. 

They are about equal but she holds the edge in speed and DC. 



> Even if her durability did increase, I don't see why it would jump from small city to island when her dc didn't even increase that much. Her stats would be focused more around  magic and I don't remember anyone ever bringing up any physical feats by Merlin.


I touched on this earlier. She gets scaled to 10c now given that her magic power severly threatened two commandments (before her overall level was under 5000) and is able to effect time. She destroyed one of Greyroads mask which comprise her, and trapped all of Greyroad in a huge tornado and then transmuted him. Just mentioning her name sent chills down Fraudrin and Greyroads spines. So she can now be scaled (given her feats vs Greyroad who was 31k magic power and 10k strength) to people like Gloxinia (lower strength level than even pre reveal Merlin) and Merascylla who survived attacks from Meliodas/Escanor and Escanor respectively. Attacks around 23 GT will def do a number on her, no doubt but they wouldn't outright kill her, or as you suggested Zeref kill her with a casual TK crush. 


> Zeref got hit with a half dozen attacks from a bloodlusted island buster and only had some small burns and bruises


Yeah but with infinity he risk getting hit with an infinity ray, or infinity flames, being frozen in time inside island level Ice, etc. Without it it is still twice above his paygrade, so she would obviously get benefit of doubt if anything given how decently matched they are.


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## reiko96 (Oct 13, 2016)

Well, Merlin's cubes can tank a country busting explosion. Fraundrin's suicide attack was stated to wipe out all of Liones


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 13, 2016)

Can really only be taken as hyperbole for now. It was said that Zeref can't be killed by any current magic that's in use, Etherion is supposed to be a country buster 


I can't see Merlin surviving a serious attack from Escanor or Estarossa or current Mel. She has no durability feats and there's little to suggest her durability improved even further than her dc. She has her barriers for a reason, don't think she plans to tank attacks


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## Dr. White (Oct 13, 2016)

Doesn't matter. Her whole powerlevel and portrayal went up so shebgets scaled to those casters. Unless you have a better argument than I don't think she can. Gloxinia has armors and defenses and so does merscylla yet both took attacks from Mel and escanor. So.... And once again gloxinia has 0 strength level


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## EternalRage (Oct 13, 2016)

reiko96 said:


> Well, Merlin's cubes can tank a country busting explosion. Fraundrin's suicide attack was stated to wipe out all of Liones



statements < feats


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## Jag77 (Oct 14, 2016)

Always a Fairy Fail thread.


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## Jag77 (Oct 14, 2016)

Can somebody please explain to me how timestop in FT works. 

Nakama BS has me questioning it period. 

Dimaria's got fucked over by E.N.D Natsu and I believe it was Iwandesu who told me Igneel's magic destroys all other magic.

Is E.N.D mode a Flame Dragon King Mode evolution or something like that then? 

And was it agreed that the high ends for the Dragon Face's speed feats accepted? I tend to see it still argued here and there and especially the Invel DC which teeters from megatons to small island level. 

So like, what is it? and what's the reasoning? I don't read FT plus I've been lost for quite a bit so pardon me.


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## reiko96 (Oct 14, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> statements < feats


Have you even read the latest  chapter? There is no "feat" because Graimor stop him before he could self-destruct. Merlin said they were all safe in her cube but liones and everyone in the kingdom would be wiped out. There is not reason to assume that Merlin is lying. That makes no sense.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 14, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Doesn't matter. Her whole powerlevel and portrayal went up so shebgets scaled to those casters. Unless you have a better argument than I don't think she can. Gloxinia has armors and defenses and so does merscylla yet both took attacks from Mel and escanor. So.... And once again gloxinia has 0 strength level


My argument is I don't think she can. Your argument is you think she can. Not exactly monumentally different. 

You say her durability would increase because she got some new feats. Thing is, none of the new hype or feats she got correlates to her physical durability. Another thing; why was her durability lower than her dc before, but now her dc and durability are equal?


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 14, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Doesn't matter. Her whole powerlevel and portrayal went up so shebgets scaled to those casters. Unless you have a better argument than I don't think she can. Gloxinia has armors and defenses and so does merscylla yet both took attacks from Mel and escanor. So.... And once again gloxinia has 0 strength level


My argument is I don't think she can. Your argument is you think she can. Not exactly monumentally different. 

You say her durability would increase because she got some new feats. Thing is, none of the new hype or feats she got correlates to her physical durability. Another thing; why was her durability lower than her dc before, but now her dc and durability are equal?


----------



## Dr. White (Oct 14, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> My argument is I don't think she can. Your argument is you think she can. Not exactly monumentally different.


They kind of are since they are opposites.

The difference is I am giving you scaling and in verse logic, where as you are simply judging the situation based on how you feel Merlin's stats are, unless I missed an argument you gave.



> You say her durability would increase because she got some new feats. Thing is, none of the new hype or feats she got correlates to her physical durability.


She got feats and portrayal. I have gone over this numerous of times before. She has 10C magic power level now thanks to her performance and portrayal vs 10C (and since it was stated she must have ridiculous magic power to manipulate time). She therefore gets the same scaling spell casters with that level of magic get as well i.e. Merascylla, and Gloxinia who have less magic power than her, and shitty strength levels (indicating that their durability is not a direct function of strength) with Gloxinia coming in lower than Merlin in her previous incantation. Now that her magic power is >= to his why wouldn't she get the same benefits as a fairy who took hits from Mel and Escanor? Or a non physical fighter who got crisped by Escnanor?

You tell me. Why would Merlin succomb to an attack that Gloxinia can tank despite him having less strength stat and <= to the same magic power?


> Another thing; why was her durability lower than her dc before, but now her dc and durability are equal?


Why does this surprise you so much? She gets stats of the best thing she has done or can be scaled to, it's not like she has to scale the same ratio everytime she gets an upgrade.. At the time she could only be scaled to King who was small city+ in durability (he is City+ now), but could be scaled to him and other sins in DC given her portrayal and small feat set.

Now she is scalable to the 10C version of King (Gloxinia), a spellcaster w/ similar magic in that of Merascylla, and the entity she just beat in combat via Greyroad.


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 14, 2016)

its not that her magic power is massively high. its "infinite". it got nothing to do with her powerlevel. it only is her ability. 

in fact, she could have the least magic power in the series, infinity would still work as an ability. 

and according to your logic: having more strenght than gloxinia automatically warrants island level since gloxinia took blows from meliodas with a "0" in strenght.... guess jericho can challenge him for a fight soon enough since she has a level above 0 too and can take his blows....

arguing strictly due to powerlevels is bullshit and should not be used as mandatory to warrant tiers


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## Dr. White (Oct 14, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> its not that her magic power is massively high. its "infinite". it got nothing to do with her powerlevel. it only is her ability.


What are you even talking about?

Her magic power is massively high. She destroyed Greyroads mask and captured him with a wind spell.

Greyroad said one must have tremendous power to affect time and he himself cannot even do so outside of demon king commandment.

2+2=4.

To you second point, her magic level is not infinite...Her magic power is called infinity which is a time related spell that sets the time effecting things to a static (unchanging state) of infinity.

Please read before coming at me.



> in fact, she could have the least magic power in the series, infinity would still work as an ability.


No. She only has infinifty because she has massive magic levels, and is Bellials daughter which is obviously why the 10c got scared.

Greyroad specifically said time manipulators have extreme magic power. There is no getting around that manga fact bud.



> and according to your logic: having more strenght than gloxinia automatically warrants island level since gloxinia took blows from meliodas with a "0" in strenght.... guess jericho can challenge him for a fight soon enough since she has a level above 0 too and can take his blows....


No you're just being stupid. The reason I keep bringing that up is to point out that people with low strength can still have high durability thanks to their magic power like fucking gloxinia. 

I gave you that "quote" because I was mocking you for saying Merlin wouldn't get island durability scaling because she isn't a physical fighter and didn't take a hit despite being scaled to Gloxinia, who can tank island level attacks with 0 strength.

Read the post before you talk shit.


> arguing strictly due to powerlevels is bullshit and should not be used as mandatory to warrant tiers


Except no it isn't if there is a very large gap in the powerlevels and I am also using portrayal and feats, so again your crying is moot.


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 14, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> What are you even talking about?
> 
> Her magic power is massively high. She destroyed Greyroads mask and captured him with a wind spell.
> 
> ...



my exact words:

its "infinite". it *got nothing to do with her powerlevel. it only is her ability.* 

Please read before coming at me.



Dr. White said:


> No. She only has infinifty because she has massive magic levels, and is Bellials daughter which is obviously why the 10c got scared.



aaaaaand that belials daughter has what kind of powerlevel exactly? you dont know. i dont know. we all dont know. obviously she will get a higher powerlevel shown along the lines, but her being able to be so effective and to affect her time doesnt come from her power level. it comes from infinity as an ability, which trait lets you bypass the amount of power needed for doing something like this, since what you have started once will keep working forever. 



Dr. White said:


> Greyroad specifically said time manipulators have extreme magic power. There is no getting around that manga fact bud.



invoking is not the problem. him being shocked is maintaining and sustaining the feat. for which infinity comes in handy and is unrelated to her powerlevel at all



Dr. White said:


> No you're just being stupid. The reason I keep bringing that up is to point out that people with low strength can still have high durability thanks to their magic power like fucking gloxinia.
> 
> I gave you that "quote" because I was mocking you for saying Merlin wouldn't get island durability scaling because she isn't a physical fighter and didn't take a hit despite being scaled to Gloxinia, who can tank island level attacks with 0 strength.
> 
> ...



you sure getting triggered when more and more people are starting to question your reasoning


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## Dr. White (Oct 14, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> my exact words:
> 
> its "infinite". it *got nothing to do with her powerlevel. it only is her ability.*


Yes and does nothing to prove your point lmao. Saying "it's only her ability" doesn't invalidate Greyroads observation that it takes extreme magic power to manipulate time 

You don't know how she got that ability either, and it's obvious via greyroads statement that it requires immense magic. So no as you were saying...





> aaaaaand that belials daughter has what kind of powerlevel exactly? you dont know. i dont know. we all dont know.


One that obviously allows her to make 10C shit themselves and control time. Which of course given the context scales to the 10C and specifically Greyloard at least.



> obviously she will get a higher powerlevel shown along the lines, but her being able to be so effective and to affect her time doesnt come from her power level. it comes from infinity as an ability,


and you're not understanding that it takes obscene magic power to use the ability infinity.



> which trait lets you bypass the amount of power needed for doing something like this, since what you have started once will keep working forever.


No it isn't. Infinity has nothing to do with power or energy. It is a time spell that sets time to infinity making it static. Accomplished by Merlin's high magic level which allows her to manipulate time.





> invoking is not the problem. him being shocked is maintaining and sustaining the feat. for which infinity comes in handy and is unrelated to her powerlevel at all


What are you talking about? Greyroad said "it takes a magnificent power level in of itself to control or manipulate time, let alone manipulating all of it forever, that would be impossible."

Merlin confirmed the former but denied the latter. Aka; She can control time (therefore has a large magic level) but she doesn't control it all at once forever, only the time affecting her self and the spells she sets.





> you sure getting triggered when more and more people are starting to question your reasoning


Nope, just don't treat debaters who don't substantiate themselves and try to talk shit about others much respect. You should have noticed the fact that I only seem "triggered" in regards to your shitpost which try to paint me as someone who "only sticks to their interpretation" and "says alot of shit hoping no one double checks him". Oh le irony.


----------



## RavenSupreme (Oct 15, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Yes and does nothing to prove your point lmao. Saying "it's only her ability" doesn't invalidate Greyroads observation that it takes extreme magic power to manipulate time
> 
> You don't know how she got that ability either, and it's obvious via greyroads statement that it requires immense magic. So no as you were saying...



of which nothing is quantified. you cant put a tier on "extreme magic power"



Dr. White said:


> One that obviously allows her to make 10C shit themselves and control time. Which of course given the context scales to the 10C and specifically Greyloard at least.
> 
> 
> and you're not understanding that it takes obscene magic power to use the ability infinity.



what? the magic power infinity does not use any magic power. it is simply her ability. or do you belive it takes magic power for meliodas to use his full counter? or king to utilize disaster? infinity allows her to use her spells effectively. its the spells who need magic power to be used, not infinity.



Dr. White said:


> No it isn't. Infinity has nothing to do with power or energy. It is a time spell that sets time to infinity making it static. Accomplished by Merlin's high magic level which allows her to manipulate time.



infinity doesnt set time to infinity, that is simply bullshit and was never stated. when flames keep on burning time is not set static. its simply that after invoking a spell with infinity the spell lasts in a state of perpetuum mobile like behaviour until she dispels it. she doesnt set time on infinity wtf



Dr. White said:


> What are you talking about? Greyroad said "it takes a magnificent power level in of itself to control or manipulate time, let alone manipulating all of it forever, that would be impossible."
> 
> Merlin confirmed the former but denied the latter. Aka; She can control time (therefore has a large magic level) but she doesn't control it all at once forever, only the time affecting her self and the spells she sets.



infinity works autonom. she does not have to actively put her magic power into spells after she had casted it once. regardless how "impossible" it would be to maintain and sustain a spell, infinity does it. its not merlin continously fueling the spell. 




Dr. White said:


> Nope, just don't treat debaters who don't substantiate themselves and try to talk shit about others much respect. You should have noticed the fact that I only seem "triggered" in regards to your shitpost which try to paint me as someone who "only sticks to their interpretation" and "says alot of shit hoping no one double checks him". Oh le irony.



i dont even


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 15, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> of which nothing is quantified. you cant put a tier on "extreme magic power"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what's your stance Raven? Do you think Merlin deserves island level durability and that she's shown she's capable of resisting timestop?


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 15, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> So what's your stance Raven? Do you think Merlin deserves island level durability and that she's shown she's capable of resisting timestop?



she has no feat of resisting timestop. she gets not resistance scaline. she gets no island level durability but island level barriers (which zeref could not break so she will just chill inside of it and they will stupidly look at each other)


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 15, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> she has no feat of resisting timestop. she gets not resistance scaline. she gets no island level durability but island level barriers (which zeref could not break so she will just chill inside of it and they will stupidly look at each other)


Well if she can't resist timestop, then she probably loses the one scenario. It's not taxing magic and Zeref would be able to affect her from a decent distance away

As for the barriers and durability, I agree. She has no feats of tanking anything and nothing to suggest she can. Island level barriers is at least backed up with some feats, so I have no problem with it. 

Is hiding in her barrier and avoiding combat really her fighting with the intent to kill though? Sounds more like the intent to save her own ass. But yeah, if Zeref's omnidirectional TK and atmospheric enchantments can't bypass her barriers then the fight ends in a draw most likely


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## Dr. White (Oct 15, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> of which nothing is quantified. you cant put a tier on "extreme magic power"


We can powerscale it to Greyroads power level which is quantified.

You don't need to quantify stuff for basic powerscaling which is obvious as fuck. Greyroad amazed at the level of magic need for time manipulation. Merlin has that amount of magic.




> what? the magic power infinity does not use any magic power. it is simply her ability. or do you belive it takes magic power for meliodas to use his full counter? or king to utilize disaster? infinity allows her to use her spells effectively. its the spells who need magic power to be used, not infinity.


Her ability that she made in order to control time. We have confirmation it takes extreme magic to affect time and the only person who can is the demon King. This enough to powerscale her.





> infinity doesnt set time to infinity, that is simply bullshit and was never stated. when flames keep on burning time is not set static. its simply that after invoking a spell with infinity the spell lasts in a state of perpetuum mobile like behaviour until she dispels it. she doesnt set time on infinity wtf


Bruh I'm not gonna force you to read words on the panel cuh. It's literally stated time manipulation and allows things to last for eternity by setting their time to infinity. Not gonna say much more given Me, Yak, the Wiki have all failed to get through to you.

And yes obviously people have to use magic energy for their innate magic attacks.....Hendy cannot keep using Break if his magic is completely gone, and Hendrickson cannot use Acid all day if he has no magic power...like what....

Merlin got infinity later into her human life...Meaning she had to get enough magic power in order to manipulate time and therefore create infinity.



> infinity works autonom. she does not have to actively put her magic power into spells after she had casted it once. regardless how "impossible" it would be to maintain and sustain a spell, infinity does it. its not merlin continously fueling the spell.


No you are completly wrong. It is not a commandment. Innate magic power is just special form person to person it does not means its use is automatic or doesn't waste energy that is completely unevidenced and quite stupid tbh


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## Dr. White (Oct 15, 2016)

Lmao. Can't resist timestop despite existing in a nature of stopped time which granted her access to other time hax immunity. The reason she doesn't need to show resistance vs a time stop is because her time is literally already static, hence her acceleration immunity.


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## howdy01 (Oct 15, 2016)

zeref has tk? o.o


----------



## EternalRage (Oct 15, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> It's literally stated time manipulation and allows things to last for eternity by setting their time to infinity. Not gonna say much more given


This is wank, it's been explained to you multiple times that she can't move in time-stop nor negate it.


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## Dr. White (Oct 15, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> This is wank, it's been explained to you multiple times that she can't move in time-stop nor negate it.


No it isn't. You never proved anything. Merlin has already shown resistance to time manipulation because her time is set to static. Why would stopping time around her effect her when she has already move herself outside the effect of time? It makes no sense.

And these are the people with official translations at Wiki describing Infinity
"Merlin's power of Infinity is a unique and incredibly powerful ability that allows her to stop the time of all of her spells until she herself chooses to dispel it. No matter how powerful the spell, Merlin only needs to cast it once for her power to take effect.

It is extremely versatile and can be used in numerous ways to make her spells everlasting, including freezing others in ice eternally, causing flames to burn endlessly, or even stopping her own time. It allows her to escape the effects of powers which alter her time or her age, such as 's commandment.

Its effects are so outside the norm of most magic, that it's been called "unfair" and Merlin accused of "cheating" for possessing it."

Obvious NLF hyperbole aside It's a time manipulation spell.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 15, 2016)

howdy01 said:


> zeref has tk? o.o


Yeah, he used it to grab the book of END out of Gray's hand. Also used it to lift/ immobilize Makarov before beginning to crush him with it. Mest saved him by teleporting him away right as he was about to get squished


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## EternalRage (Oct 15, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> It allows her to escape the effects of powers which *alter her time* *or her age*



smh

those wiki translations are just proving my point, it uses statements from the manga and then simplifies it. "alter her time OR her age" meaning "escape the effects of powers which alter her time" = escape the effects of powers which alter her age

the only thing we know is that she couldn't be aged because she "stopped her time"

and knowing how shonen mangaka like to make ability names sound stronger than they actually are, the chances of her being able to negate time-stop just because she "stopped her time" and can move means nothing.

you can't assume things that have never been shown.


----------



## howdy01 (Oct 15, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Yeah, he used it to grab the book of END out of Gray's hand. Also used it to lift/ immobilize Makarov before beginning to crush him with it. Mest saved him by teleporting him away right as he was about to get squished


oh so just a minor thing, I thought it was something on an impressive scale


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## EternalRage (Oct 15, 2016)

howdy01 said:


> oh so just a minor thing, I thought it was something on an impressive scale


Both were casual feats and the first one was fast enough that Gray thought it vanished

The latter is probably some type of town level


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 15, 2016)

howdy01 said:


> oh so just a minor thing, I thought it was something on an impressive scale


He hasn't used it on a mass scale like Pain's CST or anything, but it isn't exactly weak. Zeref could casually kill Makarov with it and he should be around small city in terms of durability

Edit: I know Shinra Tensei technicaly isn't TK but you know what I mean. Guess Law's feats of redirecting Fuji's meteor would be a better example


----------



## howdy01 (Oct 15, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> He hasn't used it on a mass scale like Pain's CST or anything, but it isn't exactly weak. Zeref could casually kill Makarov with it and he should be around small city in terms of durability


its basically just a little utility thing since its not exactly that powerful, for now anyway. But dnt know how much utility that will give him here.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 15, 2016)

Well if Merlin's durability is still only small city level, then it would be strong enough to kill her. If it's higher he can still use it to possibly restrict her so he can quickly cast some different magic. Most of his feats have been casual, but Zeref has still shown a decent amount of magic that would be effective against Merlin and other characters on her level


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## Dr. White (Oct 15, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> smh
> 
> those wiki translations are just proving my point, it uses statements from the manga and then simplifies it. "alter her time OR her age" meaning "escape the effects of powers which alter her time" = escape the effects of powers which alter her age
> 
> the only thing we know is that she couldn't be aged because she "stopped her time"


No they don't propve you point lol.

First off the word or supposses one or the other...Meaning she can choose to effect either one...

Secondly age is a fucking measure of time.

Third, she already resisted time hax on panel specifically because she was frozen in time. It is this specific reason along with the feat of resisting time manipulation that grants her some level fo time resistance.

To break it down further.
- Merlin exist in space time but is not effected by time otherwise she would age. Despite this she can still move (like How Dio moves in timestop despite literally stopping the world.)
- Because of this static existence, when someone went to forcefully accelerate her time, she was unaffected without having to actively do anything.
- Therefore, freezing the time in a space around Merlin will not effect her and make her immobile, as she is already frozen (aka unaffected by) in time and has the ability to move.



> and knowing how shonen mangaka like to make ability names sound stronger than they actually are, the chances of her being able to negate time-stop just because she "stopped her time" and can move means nothing.


No one said she can negate a timestop, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm claiming she has passive resistance to timestops effecting a radius of space because she is already frozen in time.

Imagine it like this. Zeref doesn't stop the time in a given area of space. Instead he can only stop the time of certain people (not the environment.). If he tried to use said timestop on Merlin do you think it would work? The answer is no because she already froze herself. So therefore stopping the time around Merlin isn't going to effect her (because the only reason people get stopped by Zeref is because they become frozen in time and obviously have no resistance given the lack of time manipulation) because that is already her natural state.



> you can't assume things that have never been shown.


You can assume/infer consequences of certain facts. It's called implicit knowledge.
Merlin doesn't need to explicitly show timestop resistance if she literally exist in a state of timestop. It is a logic based conclusion that timestopping her wouldn't affect her.[/QUOTE]


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## EternalRage (Oct 15, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> First off the word or supposses one or the other...Meaning she can choose to effect either one...


No, it's a word used to indicate an alternative. Nowhere does it say she can do both. You just keep on wanking things. She can choose one or the other, not both



Dr. White said:


> Secondly age is a fucking measure of time.


 is not a fucking measure of time

hours, minutes, milleniums, etc. are measures of time

Age is the length of time that a person has lived or a thing has existed, so her length of time alive couldn't be affect



Dr. White said:


> Third, she already resisted time hax on panel specifically because she was frozen in time. It is this specific reason along with the feat of resisting time manipulation that grants her some level fo time resistance.


time manipulation of a person =/= time manipulation of everything on the planet 

The latter is on a much greater scale, obviously. "some level of time resistance" is not enough to defend against pretty much everyone who has time-stop, and can you show me where she already resisted time hax along with the chapter?



Dr. White said:


> - Merlin exist in space time but is not effected by time otherwise she would age. Despite this she can still move (like How Dio moves in timestop despite literally stopping the world.)


first of all, the concept of time and the concept of aging are two entirely different things, time being far superior obviously

time: the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole.

time compared to a human lifetime (merlin's original), the lifetime is microscopic

Ban can't age as well, does that mean that he's able to move in stopped time? no.

second, *Merlin resisted her time being accelerated*, not her time being stopped. Her time was made infinite, meaning even if her time was accelerated at a rate of 500 trillion years per second, she wouldn't gain a single wrinkle. If her time was stopped, that would be a different story.



Dr. White said:


> Therefore, freezing the time in a space around Merlin will not effect her and make her immobile, as she is already frozen (aka unaffected by) in time and has the ability to move.



She's not frozen, there is no "static", her time is infinity, period



Dr. White said:


> Merlin doesn't need to explicitly show timestop resistance if she literally exist in a state of timestop. It is a logic based conclusion that timestopping her wouldn't affect her.


Except she doesn't exist in a state of timestop, again

------------

She stopped her time by making it infinity, her time can't be accelerated

=/=

Time stopping wont affect her


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## Dr. White (Oct 15, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> No, it's a word used to indicate an alternative. Nowhere does it say she can do both. You just keep on wanking things. She can choose one or the other, not both


No you are literally arguing the stupidest of points. She is stopping her agingin process because the time effecting her in reality has been set to a static state. She can't halt her age outside of time manipulation or metabolism manipulation and given the context of her ability reveal it be stupid to go with the latter, and ya kjnow given she straight up says she froze her own time and can freeze the time of her spells.




> *age is not a fucking measure of time*
> 
> hours, minutes, milleniums, etc. are measures of time
> 
> Age *is the length of time* that a person has lived or a thing has existed, so her length of time alive couldn't be affect


Length via dictionary.com
1.
the longest extent of anything as *measured* from end to end:
2.
the *measure* of the greatest dimension of a plane or solid figure.
4.
*extent in time*; duration:
the length of a battle.


time manipulation of a person =/= time manipulation of everything on the planet



> The latter is on a much greater scale, obviously. "some level of time resistance" is not enough to defend against pretty much everyone who has time-stop, and can you show me where she already resisted time hax along with the chapter?


She doesn't need to. She can add it to her spells and stop time for eternity...I never said she can time stop the whole world. The problem you don't see is that Merlin already lives under stopped time in a world of flowing time. Stopping the flow of everything isn't going to effect Merlin cause she already exist there. Essentially, everything would become like her.

Read from this page to page 12.





> first of all, the concept of time and the concept of aging are two entirely different things, time being far superior obviously


Not really. Aging is a result of atomic/cellular change over time. Time is change. To forcefully speed up someones age you must either force their metabolism to work as hard as they would have in their natural lifespan in a very short span, or manipulate time. Greyroads commandment is specifically the latter.



> time: the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole.
> 
> time compared to a human lifetime (merlin's original), the lifetime is microscopic


This is irrelevant. Merlin is immortal because she stopped time from effecting her for eternity. By setting something to infinty there is no change anymore. She says this much in the chapter.



> Ban can't age as well, does that mean that he's able to move in stopped time? no.


This is a terrible argument but it does illustrate your fundamental misunderstanding.
- Ban's means if immortality is chemical based. The fountain juice naturally invigorates and produces life. So Ban can still die, but he will regenerate back to a pristine state, the same one right before he did or was injured. He can't die of natural age because his body is always being vitalized by life sustaning and fixing nutrition.

- Merlin's means of immortality is completely different. She is stopping time from effecting her bodies cell. So she is stuck in time from the first time she used the spell, kinda similar to the concept of cryogenic freezing in fiction except on a much grander scale. This is why she had inherent resistance to having her time sped up, because she was set to infinifty and therefore unchangeable in time (you can't get to the end point or start of infinity.)



> second, *Merlin resisted her time being accelerated*, not her time being stopped. Her time was made infinite, meaning even if her time was accelerated at a rate of 500 trillion years per second, she wouldn't gain a single wrinkle. If her time was stopped, that would be a different story.


*Yes she resisted her time being accelerated because her time is stopped.*

Infinite means a state of non change. She is stopped. It is explictly stated that she is stopped in time, which is why she doesn't age. You say if her time was stopped it would be a different story>? What would happen?

*She already exist in a state of stopped time *





> She's not frozen, there is no "static", her time is infinity, period
> 
> 
> Except she doesn't exist in a state of timestop, again


Yes she does read the chapter you just asked me for in this same post. You don';t dictate what nakaba gives Merlin as a power 

Greyroad himself even says "Why has this one not changed". The concept of Infinity causing a state of static is obviously over your head at the moment.
------------



> _She stopped her time by making it infinity_, her time can't be accelerated
> 
> =/=
> 
> _Time stopping wont affect her_


Nevermind you seem to get it.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 15, 2016)

This thread......


----------



## EternalRage (Oct 15, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> No you are literally arguing the stupidest of points. She is stopping her agingin process because the time effecting her in reality has been set to a static state. She can't halt her age outside of time manipulation or metabolism manipulation and given the context of her ability reveal it be stupid to go with the latter, and ya kjnow given she straight up says she froze her own time and can freeze the time of her spells.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




you remind me of someone

unable to accept something and keeps repeating a retarded argument


----------



## Dr. White (Oct 15, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> you remind me of someone
> 
> unable to accept something and keeps repeating a retarded argument


Good one


----------



## RavenSupreme (Oct 16, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> We can powerscale it to Greyroads power level which is quantified.
> 
> You don't need to quantify stuff for basic powerscaling which is obvious as fuck. Greyroad amazed at the level of magic need for time manipulation. Merlin has that amount of magic.



again: powerlevels are no guaranteed indicator of a characters tier. it stands for the prowess in magic, but it does not transfer to "if you have powerlevel X you can bust an island". this is not dragonball Z. 

not to mention they are inconsistent to begin with



Dr. White said:


> Her ability that she made in order to control time. We have confirmation it takes extreme magic to affect time and the only person who can is the demon King. This enough to powerscale her.



she did not "made" infinity. she casted a spell which stopped her time - and to keep that status quo she used "infinity". we have no information of anyone in the verse actively developing their main abilities (FC, sunshine, disaster etc.). assuming merlin is the sole exception is not applicable.





Dr. White said:


> Bruh I'm not gonna force you to read words on the panel cuh. It's literally stated time manipulation and allows things to last for eternity by setting their time to infinity. Not gonna say much more given Me, Yak, the Wiki have all failed to get through to you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



not the time is set to infinity, just the state in which the spell is in. she only time she affected "time" was when she stopped her own time. she used infinity to make the spell which stopped her time last. she did not stopped her time with infinity alone. and like i said: she did not created infinity. she merely used it to maintain the spell she created for stopping her time.




Dr. White said:


> No you are completly wrong. It is not a commandment. Innate magic power is just special form person to person it does not means its use is automatic or doesn't waste energy that is completely unevidenced and quite stupid tbh


[/QUOTE]

she casts her spell which she envokes with infinity -> the spell lasts until she dispels it
its nowhere stated she has to actively maintain the spell. infinity is already envoked in it. it already lasts due to its influence. heck, the entire ice-spell in the capital was randomly hanging around while merlin fought grayroad. are you trying to tell me she is constantly fueling every spell she ever made to last? the only person who has zero evidence to his claims is you, since you base your arguments of your own subjective interpretation of things and dive into speculations, taking them for granted


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## howdy01 (Oct 16, 2016)

merlin is in a state where her own time is stopped, but she is still able to move, therefore shouldn't she able to move when time in general is stopped?


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## Dr. White (Oct 16, 2016)

Raven I am not doing this back and forth anymore. I keep giving you canon/arguments and you just keep replying with no scans or arguments that prove anything wrong. If you wanna argue with the words on the panel and the aithors quantification of people's power, be my guest. We can agree to disagree from here on out. The debate between me and you specifically isn't going to go anywhere.

I will respond to any one else on the matter.


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 16, 2016)

you misinterpret on panel events and speculate things without base.

nothing more to it.


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## Dr. White (Oct 16, 2016)

Glad we could agree Merlin takes this hard fought battle.


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 16, 2016)

agreeing on physical scaling is the easy thing. the concept of infinity / time manipulation is what is still up to debate

since if in a battle, this is what will mostly be debated over.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 16, 2016)

Seems more like a draw to me


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## Dr. White (Oct 16, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Seems more like a draw to me


Merlin has better odds with better utility and perfect cube in my opinion .If he gets trapped in their he can't pass through to get out and Merlin can just set perfect cube to infinity (if you don't believe that it's a time stop) and keep him there forever. If you believe Infinity is a timestop she can use Infinity on Ice. Both forms would also still give her the passive timestop attacks as well. Magic negation is also something he lacks, his teleportation is less casual, and so is his TK. Like I said they are pretty much equal, but her utility should give her the edge here.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 16, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Merlin has better odds with better utility and perfect cube in my opinion .If he gets trapped in their he can't pass through to get out and Merlin can just set perfect cube to infinity (if you don't believe that it's a time stop) and keep him there forever. If you believe Infinity is a timestop she can use Infinity on Ice. Both forms would also still give her the passive timestop attacks as well. Magic negation is also something he lacks, his teleportation is less casual, and so is his TK. Like I said they are pretty much equal, but her utility should give her the edge here.


How are his teleportation and TK less casual? Nothing really indicates that 

Perfect Cube would be about her only option since Zeref would beat her in a death match it seems. Also, Atmospheric enchantment magic would melt the ice if Merlin were to freeze him


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## Dr. White (Oct 16, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> How are his teleportation and TK less casual? Nothing really indicates that
> 
> Perfect Cube would be about her only option since Zeref would beat her in a death match it seems. Also, Atmospheric enchantment magic would melt the ice if Merlin were to freeze him


A.) Someone stated that he needs a black orb to direct his teleportation so it's more akin to portal hopping teleportation of that is the case. I was going off that persons description of his teleportation. Merlin needs to snap her fingers, and like I said, has fodderized a BFR expert who was mach 277 and had just as casual teleportation. 

The TK I am basing on her having better explicit feats than him. I trust he can be scaled to TK use but Merlin was literally zipping Mama Hawk through the air like a fly faster than Albion could swat at.
B.) Not really, she has the DC to kill him to. With stuff like Bend room, TK, teleportation of herself and objects and attacks she can protect herself while homing in on him. He can defend himself and counter attack, but once again hitting her through sensing, teleportation, spatial manipulation, barriers, and magic negation, is going to be hard AF.
C.) I don't see why his enchantment would work. If Infinity is time hax, then he wouldn't unfreeze the time she has frozen him in.

If Infinity is entropy manipulation than idk how he is going to melt something with infinite energy put into it.

Plus she could always dispel his enchantment, but he can't do the same.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 17, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> A.) Someone stated that he needs a black orb to direct his teleportation so it's more akin to portal hopping teleportation of that is the case. I was going off that persons description of his teleportation. Merlin needs to snap her fingers, and like I said, has fodderized a BFR expert who was mach 277 and had just as casual teleportation.
> 
> The TK I am basing on her having better explicit feats than him. I trust he can be scaled to TK use but Merlin was literally zipping Mama Hawk through the air like a fly faster than Albion could swat at.
> B.) Not really, she has the DC to kill him to. With stuff like Bend room, TK, teleportation of herself and objects and attacks she can protect herself while homing in on him. He can defend himself and counter attack, but once again hitting her through sensing, teleportation, spatial manipulation, barriers, and magic negation, is going to be hard AF.
> ...


That's just one type of teleportation he's shown. He can teleport at the drop of a hat. As for TK, she's shown higher lifting strength, but has she even used it for offensive purposes? 

She doesn't have the dc to kill him fast enough I don't think. She's sitting at 2 gt while Zeref has proven he can take a half dozen 8 gt attacks to the face and continue fighting. She'd need to finish him off before his passive regen activates 

Her ice would only get scaled to Monspiet's feat, so don't see why Zeref would be unable to break it/ melt it. To say it's in breakable because of infinite magic is kinda nlf. You think Escanor would be helpless against it?

She needs to place both hands on a spell to cancel it, putting her hands on Law or atmospheric enchantment magic would be difficult. She'd need to fly into the clouds and avoid the town wide AoE of Law to stop it. It shoots down a bunch of pillars of light 

Atmospheric enchantments are a different story altogether. He can spawn massive fireballs right on her mouthpiece (lol), kinda hard to cancel something when you're being sent flying. From what was shown, it's attacks can't be dodged. The magic appears on your body, so it's a matter of blocking


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 17, 2016)

Merlin having TK is a speculation 

Her having time stop resistance is a as well contested 

She having bend room is as well contested 

Stop claiming things you deem correct as if they were some set in stone rules


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 17, 2016)

Does Merlin really have mindfuck? I thought she just used teleportation in that scene. 

Zeref probably does have illusion magic though now that I think about it. He taught Mavis all her magic and that was what she was best at I guess. She's only shown one application on panel though

Didn't think this thread would go on for so long. Think I'm about done posting


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 17, 2016)

she has no "mindfuck" as we usually think of it. she managed to cast an army of 10K holy knights to deceive hendrickson. apparently none of these 10k holy knights have existed and were just an illusion. however it is never explained how these things work. if they were just a projection, actually can interact, are just standing still like puppets or not etc. etc.


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## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> Merlin having TK is a speculation
> 
> Her having time stop resistance is a as well contested
> 
> ...


-No it isn't she used it on Mama Hawk, and it is the means of her flight. Try again.
- No it isn't. Her being able to freeze the time of her spells is contested. Either version of affinity has her time set to infinity and makes her stopped in time. No one disagrees with that and that is the means of her timestop resistance.
- Bend room is only contested by you and has already been accepted as a part of her arsenal for literally over a year now.

Stop deeming yourself the ultinmate judge on NNT feats when over half the things you contest are already accepted in OBD.


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 17, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> -No it isn't she used it on Mama Hawk, and it is the means of her flight. Try again.
> - No it isn't. Her being able to freeze the time of her spells is contested. Either version of affinity has her time set to infinity and makes her stopped in time. No one disagrees with that and that is the means of her timestop resistance.
> - Bend room is only contested by you and has already been accepted as a part of her arsenal for literally over a year now.
> 
> Stop deeming yourself the ultinmate judge on NNT feats when over half the things you contest are already accepted in OBD.


- tk: you speculating
- time stop resistance - in this very thread people are contesting it
- i should check the profiles more often then


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## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> - tk: you speculating
> - time stop resistance - in this very thread people are contesting it


Ok? you just repeating yoruself doesn't make you right lmao. She on panels flies Mama Hawk and it is cannon she can fly with it. Done with this point.

People are not fucking arguing her time resistance you Oaf. The feat of her doing so is on panel as with her saying her time is stopped. What's being debated is how she stopped her time, whether via Infinity being the time spell, or via Infinity being applied to the time spell. 

Once again, no matter the means, she is still frozen in a static state of time.


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 17, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Ok? you just repeating yoruself doesn't make you right lmao. She on panels flies Mama Hawk and it is cannon she can fly with it. Done with this point.
> 
> People are not fucking arguing her time resistance you Oaf. The feat of her doing so is on panel as with her saying her time is stopped. What's being debated is how she stopped her time, whether via Infinity being the time spell, or via Infinity being applied to the time spell.
> 
> Once again, no matter the means, she is still frozen in a static state of time.



there is no sign of merlin controlling mama hawks actions. mama hawk is even shouting like a mad pig when she flies. the same happened when she ran from monspiets FB. you speculate she controls her. you have no proof. thats all there is to it. without proof -> no ability assigned to someone.

people doubt her stopping her time translates to her being unaffected by zerefs time stop. do you actually read the same thread as everyone else does?


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## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> there is no sign of merlin controlling mama hawks actions. mama hawk is even shouting like a mad pig when she flies. the same happened when she ran from monspiets FB. you speculate she controls her. you have no proof. thats all there is to it. without proof -> no ability assigned to someone.


Except Merlin was sterring Mama Hawk, and when Hawk stated Mama Hawk dodged out of nowhere Merlin said "not exactly". Also you know the fact that Mama Hawk has no fucking wings and has never shown Flight or TK? Nor did she immediately drop when randomly teleported hundred of feat in the air. She was literally stationary in the sky.

This shit is really simple.



> people doubt her stopping her time translates to her being unaffected by zerefs time stop. do you actually read the same thread as everyone else does?


I thought we were talking about the thread where infinity is being debated. I already know people disagreed here, but no one gave an actual argument outside of "I feel like she would get stopped".

When Howdy asked about the interaction funny no one answered him right?


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 17, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Except Merlin was sterring Mama Hawk, and when Hawk stated Mama Hawk dodged out of nowhere Merlin said "not exactly". Also you know the fact that Mama Hawk has no fucking wings and has never shown Flight or TK? Nor did she immediately drop when randomly teleported hundred of feat in the air. She was literally stationary in the sky.
> 
> This shit is really simple.



are you literally implying wings are necessary in nnt to fly? what the fuck is this shit? 

if you want to prove your point of merlin having TK just use this fucking panel and get over with it:







Dr. White said:


> I thought we were talking about the thread where infinity is being debated. I already know people disagreed here, but no one gave an actual argument outside of "I feel like she would get stopped".
> 
> When Howdy asked about the interaction funny no one answered him right?



people disagree with me but i keep on pushing my shit because i can folks are a win for the OBD


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 17, 2016)

I thought the argument was the fact that she hasn't explicitly shown, said or implied she has timestop resistance?


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## howdy01 (Oct 17, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> I thought the argument was the fact that she hasn't explicitly shown, said or implied she has timestop resistance?


she does though, at the moment time for her is stopped, but she is still able to move and do what she wants. Therefore she has resistance.


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## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2016)

RavenSupreme said:


> are you literally implying wings are necessary in nnt to fly? what the fuck is this shit?
> 
> if you want to prove your point of merlin having TK just use this fucking panel and get over with it:


Nice strawman. Everything needs a mechanism to fly. Mama Hawk is a fucking pig and therefore cannot naturally fly. The only means of flight shown so far are wings (like demons) and TK (like King, Merascylla, and Merlin.). No evidence that MAma HAwk has TK and your example of her running towards Monspiet attack has nothing to do with her flying.

Added with Merlin sterring her with aldan, Mama HAwk not dropping and being stationary while mid air after being teleported, and the dialogue and it is very clear cut Merlin's telekinesis.


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## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2016)

howdy01 said:


> she does though, at the moment time for her is stopped, but she is still able to move and do what she wants. Therefore she has resistance.


What do you think of the match up?


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## howdy01 (Oct 17, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> What do you think of the match up?


only thing she can do is try and bfr, since zeref has single digit gigaton durability + heal, but he is too slow to avoid her bfr.
But things get annoying cuz zeref has his own tele, rendering bfr moot, so neither party has anyway to kill each other for good (unless merlin has some other hax that is useful)


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## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2016)

howdy01 said:


> only thing she can do is try and bfr, since zeref has single digit gigaton durability + heal, but he is too slow to avoid her bfr.
> But things get annoying cuz zeref has his own tele, rendering bfr moot, so neither party has anyway to kill each other for good (unless merlin has some other hax that is useful)


I agree BFR is useless here, but she can still use teleportation for escape and possibly to teleport her attacks into him/his attacks away. The only way I can see her winning would be for her to freeze/burn him with infinity and then trap him in perfect cube while he's trying to break out. He won't be able to physically break it without having his attacks deflected, and since he isn't the caster of PC any teleportation attempts should be met with redirection back inside (like how Merlin was redirect outside of the cube when she tried to teleport into Vivian's.).

I think he would have a shot to destroy her but she has too much utility with teleportation, barriers, TK, bend room, and magic negation plus he can't penetrate Perfect cube if she uses it defensively (And she can float Perfect cube and most likely attack out of it as well).


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 17, 2016)

merlins versatility is her saving grace, now that that dumb "infinity ice means he is frozen in space-time" is out of the way and finally conceded by dr.white we can focus on actual feats which would give her the win.

a perfect cube on top of him is the easiest go-to victory here

since she can cast PC in the time it takes an already launched attack from galan a couple meters ahead of them without getting harmed its pretty much the most reasonable matchwinner

infinity can make that last as long as she wants, and as pointed out, porting in and out is a no-no


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## howdy01 (Oct 17, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> I agree BFR is useless here, but she can still use teleportation for escape and possibly to teleport her attacks into him/his attacks away. The only way I can see her winning would be for her to freeze/burn him with infinity and then trap him in perfect cube while he's trying to break out. He won't be able to physically break it without having his attacks deflected, and since he isn't the caster of PC any teleportation attempts should be met with redirection back inside (like how Merlin was redirect outside of the cube when she tried to teleport into Vivian's.).
> 
> I think he would have a shot to destroy her but she has too much utility with teleportation, barriers, TK, bend room, and magic negation plus he can't penetrate Perfect cube if she uses it defensively (And she can float Perfect cube and most likely attack out of it as well).


well I guess that could work, it would wear him out.


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## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2016)

howdy01 said:


> well I guess that could work, it would wear him out.


I think that she should also be able to BFR someone who is inside Perfect Cube. My case is that Infinity can allow her to keep it up forever, and since she has shown capable of effecting it with TK, teleporting it outside the battlefield (while it is turned to Infinity) should keep said person inside and effectively removed from battle. 

Just for my knowledge though, how in depth is Zeref's immortality?


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 17, 2016)

regenerated bruises on panel. stated to have survived his head cut off.


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## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2016)

So how would he deal with say, Infinity + Small Island Fire Storm spell, or Infinity + Annihilation ray if trapped inside the cube? Do you think constant 2GT application would eventually wear him out?

I ask this because I hear his immortality doesn't come from himself but another entity.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 17, 2016)

So basically, you guys think Merlin wins if she has Perfect Cube, but that she'd lose without it?


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 17, 2016)

without PC she still has various means to deal with zeref. one of the most being her literal spammable BFR, where she BFRd someone across the country and different climatic regions in one single page. huge feat.

PC is one of her best spells up to date which can be used both offensively and defensively. taking that away from her opens the discussion but her BFR is similar lethal in battle. especially since she could tag mach1800-3600 characters with it even before her recent upgrade.


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## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> So basically, you guys think Merlin wins if she has Perfect Cube, but that she'd lose without it?


It depends. If he can be worn out energy wise by her small island attacks life Fire storm or Annihilate Ray lasting forever than she can possibly nail him or telefrag him.

If he can survive that than I still think it would be a stalemate. Between her sensing, magic negation, other barriers, teleportation, etc. I just don't see him landing a hit on her outside of a straight up blitz and one shot.

Also if she can apply Infinity to her mass BFR spell...Than oh my god that is ridiculously hax.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 17, 2016)

I think she'd lose without PC. Zeref just needs to land two or three attacks to put her down. Law and his enchantment magic are things that have a very high chance of landing, regardless of how big the speed difference is


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## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> I think she'd lose without PC. Zeref just needs to land two or three attacks to put her down. Law and his enchantment magic are things that have a very high chance of landing, regardless of how big the speed difference is


How is he landing attacks on her though? She has mach 1800 reactions and can literally just teleport 300 miles away or teleport his attack away. If she for whatever reason can't teleport in time she still has other barriers outside of PC, Bend room to warp something out of the way, or magic negation to straight up thwart his spell.

Why do you think they would have high chances of landing?


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## RavenSupreme (Oct 17, 2016)

even outside of perfect cube she has regular barriers tho. they can be stretched to at least some miles radius

edit: these barriers doesnt reflect like PC does


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 17, 2016)

This is the AoE of Law:


This is his enchantment magic:


Law is activated by just the clapping of your hands, and the enchantment magic isn't much different. So Zeref enchants the air around Merlin's whatever and it appears on that body part. She's going to create a barrier or negate the magic while she's in the middle of getting sent flying?


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## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> This is the AoE of Law:
> 
> 
> This is his enchantment magic:
> ...


She can sense magic and teleport out of the way before it hits her. That Law attack isn't 300 miles in AOE. Worse case scenario she creates a barrier ( small one increasing surface area mes them weaker IIrC).

Why wouldn't she erase his enchantment before it takes effect?

She can also teleport away ash she can telepprt fast enough that vivian couldn't escape her bfr radius despite being able to teleport.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 17, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> She can sense magic and teleport out of the way before it hits her. That Law attack isn't 300 miles in AOE. Worse case scenario she creates a barrier ( small one increasing surface area mes them weaker IIrC).
> 
> Why wouldn't she erase his enchantment before it takes effect?
> 
> She can also teleport away ash she can telepprt fast enough that vivian couldn't escape her bfr radius despite being able to teleport.


Sensing magic isn't precog. She definitely isn't canceling the enchantment before it happens, Acnologia can sense magic from miles away and he didn't see it coming.

You can pull the Merlin is faster than Acno card, but it's iffy since he's Mach 1200 in terms of movement speed while Merlin only enters the 4 digit Mach range with her reactions. While I agree she can teleport away, she's still getting hit with the blast first


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## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Sensing magic isn't precog. She definitely isn't canceling the enchantment before it happens, Acnologia can sense magic from miles away and he didn't see it coming.


It doesn't need to be. Merlin is extremely reactive, and something as huge as law will no odubt alert her to cast a defense just when Fraudrin began building up his suicide attack. Unless his attack is instant and just requires a snap, or clap.

Same thing with enchanment. If Merlin feels magic affecting the environment around her she will either, teleport away, dispel the magic in the environment, or cast herself in a barrier. It's not 100% defense against it but she gets speed benefit of doubt and is extra casual with casting so I don't see those spells as "highly likely" to hit her.



> You can pull the Merlin is faster than Acno card, but it's iffy since he's Mach 1200 in terms of movement speed while Merlin only enters the 4 digit Mach range with her reactions. While I agree she can teleport away, she's still getting hit with the blast first


Her reactions is the same thing as casting speed, which is all she needs.

At worst if she is forced to port away after the spell has launched, then I see it being similar to Sasuke escaping Diedara's blast, except without having to summon Aoda/be reversed summoned. This of course being the case if she doesn't have PC.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 17, 2016)

Click on the links and go to the page right before them. Mavis claps her hands in one panel, and the page of Law I linked is literally the next panel. The enchantment magic just requires a hand wave basically. Zeref himself has performed all of his magic casually so far 

The Sasuke Deidara example wouldn't really apply here imo. With Deidara's explosions; Sasuke could avoid most of the damage because the majority of the explosion isn't hitting him. With the fireball; she's getting hit with the entire thing still, it doesn't explode it just hits regularly. She can teleport afterwards, though she'll be getting knocked back regardless


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## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Click on the links and go to the page right before them. Mavis claps her hands in one panel, and the page of Law I linked is literally the next panel.


It looks like Mavis was building up that attack the whole time hence the countdown and her using the timing of her movements. All based on the friendship power up courage she just got. Merlin would sense him building up the magic to activate with a clap and counter as she saw fit (idk which method she would prefer).




> The enchantment magic just requires a hand wave basically.


You can clearly see the magician prime her spell with the staff. Then that dude recognizes something is up and then is hit by the effects. That is ample time for Merlin to counter.



> The Sasuke Deidara example wouldn't really apply here imo. With Deidara's explosions; Sasuke could avoid most of the damage because the majority of the explosion isn't hitting him. With the fireball; she's getting hit with the entire thing still, it doesn't explode it just hits regularly. She can teleport afterwards, though she'll be getting knocked back regardless


They only got hit because the explosion went off before Sasuke summoned Manda, and Manda himself while mortally injured still survived the blast.

In the period where that dude noticed something was up and then blocked and recognized the magic, Merlin can dispel (Grey Lord said she dispelled his magic in an instant and called her dangerous) or teleport before it does any lasting damage given she is faster than both Zeref and that dude who recognized the magic  and is casual af with her tele.


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## Seekingsoul (Oct 17, 2016)

Zeref is severely lacking in the feats department for now, and until he showcases more, his chances are.....too slim (to put it mildly).

With location, Merlin is able to quite literally locate objects or beings at a distance, so Zeref can't exactly run away or hide. And while it might be troublesome to actually kill Zeref due to his immorality, Merlin could try her hands at sealing his powers or putting him in the test tube.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 17, 2016)

Merlin isn't going to dispel the magic or teleport the instant she gets hit. She doesn't exactly have FTL reactions, meaning she'll make contact with it's force; even if very briefly 

Acnologia is scaled to island level from someone who is straight up fodder to him, yet the enchantment magic almost knocked him off his feet. So the attack is unquantifiably higher than 8 gt. I'd say it's comparable to a punch from a serious Meliodas (maybe not current Mel). How well do you think she'd fare getting punched in the chest or face by the cap'n?


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## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Merlin isn't going to dispel the magic or teleport the instant she gets hit. She doesn't exactly have FTL reactions, meaning she'll make contact with it's force; even if very briefly


How do you know this? If she senses and anticipates she should have ample time. She was able to dispel the whole of Vivian's wind spell aimed at her before it did anything, and could dispel GR's magic in an instant as well along with perfect cube itself. 

People can time stuff like that when around the same speed level (Pein dodging FRS from up close, Law vs Smoker after Smoker surprise choked him, Hitsugaya dodging Gin's shikai (which is a speed shikai) despite the blade extending and being a millimeter from his eye, etc.

Even the dude  in said feat was able to notice the magic, resist it once he got it, and notice was it was upon impact. Merlin can sense magic from 300 miles away precise enough to teleport Meliodas in an exact position among the commandments despite being in astral form herself. Not seeing why she'd have trouble here.



> Acnologia is scaled to island level from someone who is straight up fodder to him, yet the enchantment magic almost knocked him off his feet. So the attack is unquantifiably higher than 8 gt. I'd say it's comparable to a punch from a serious Meliodas (maybe not current Mel). How well do you think she'd fare getting punched in the chest or face by the cap'n?


It's not comparable in that way cause you don't know how much stronger he is. Could be 2 gigatons, 10 gigatons, 100 gigatons etc. 

If she gets hit with the totality than yeah she will probably end up like Gloxinia after taking a meliodas hit. In bad condition but still able to cast. I don't think Zeref has enough DC to kill her in one shot.

I also think he will find it much harder to hit her as oppossed to her hitting him.


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