# Body Flicker Test (Read OP)



## Kyu (Jun 7, 2015)

Alright here's the deal - there are five fodder shinobi who are bound, gagged, and unable to respond to anything around them. All participants listed below must shunshin towards their respective target and eliminate(meaning kill) it - as fast as they possibly can - before the competition does. Everyone begins precisely 20 meters away from their prey. 


Our competitors:

-Ei (v2 RCM)

-Naruto (KCM)

-Itachi (Alive and healthy)

-Minato (Alive and in base)

-Tobirama (Alive)



Conditions:

Itachi, Minato, & Tobirama are armed with a single kunai/Naruto & Ei don't have any weapons other than their bodies
Hiraishin and any ninjutsu besides the Shunshin no jutsu is not permitted(this includes Tailed Beast skills)



Who finishes

*1st place:*

*2nd place:*

*3rd place:*

*4th place:*

*5th place:*

?


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## Bonly (Jun 7, 2015)

*1st place:*

Naruto

*2nd place:*

A

*3rd place:*

Minato

*4th place:*

Itachi

*5th place:*

Tobi


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## Alex Payne (Jun 7, 2015)

1st place: A/Naruto

2nd place: A/Naruto

3rd place: Minato

4th place: Tobirama/Itachi

5th place: Tobirama/Itachi

Very close imo


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## Veracity (Jun 7, 2015)

lol comparing tobirama flicker to Itachis


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## Ghost (Jun 7, 2015)

1. Naruto
2. Ei
3. Minato
4. Itachi/Tobirama


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## Icegaze (Jun 7, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Alright here's the deal - there are five fodder shinobi who are bound, gagged, and unable to respond to anything around them. All participants listed below must shunshin towards their respective target and eliminate(meaning kill) it - as fast as they possibly can - before the competition does. Everyone begins precisely 20 meters away from their prey.
> 
> 
> Our competitors:
> ...



Naruto, A, Minato, itachi , tobirama (in last place) 

as far as shunshin is concerned. 

if its getting to the finish line by any means

Minato, tobirama, Naruto, A, itachi


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 7, 2015)

1st place - Minato
2nd place - Naruto
3rd place - A
4th place - Tobirama
5th place - Itachi


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 7, 2015)

^^^






Alex Payne said:


> 1st place: A/Naruto
> 
> 2nd place: A/Naruto
> 
> ...




I'm going with this.


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## Trojan (Jun 7, 2015)

They are all the same because it's the same jutsu and we can't see the different. 

----
1- Narudo (Assuming using full speed).
2- Minato ~ A 
3- itachi
4- Tobirama


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 7, 2015)

*1st place:*

Naruto

*2nd place:*

A

*3rd place:*

Itachi

*4th place:*

Minato

*5th place:*

Tobirama

 Minato's Shunshin is overrated IMO.


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## Rocky (Jun 7, 2015)

Minato's Shunshin is featless outside of rescuing baby Naruto and intercepting Kakashi, so how it can be overrated is lost on me.

What we know is that A was the fastest and Naruto is comparable to him. How the other three stack up is anyone's guess, but I tend to lean towards the characters that are legendary for their quickness. That said, the difference is probably negligible. 

*1.)* A/Naruto

*2.)* Tobirama/Minato

*2a.)* Itachi


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 7, 2015)

Minato's Shunshin no Jutsu is supposedly faster than Tobirama's, and was _noted_ for its speed during the Kakashi Gaiden too. 

That said, Minato was known as the fastest man in the world not on the basis of his Shunshin, but rather on his reaction speed and Hiraishin. Ei's Shunshin should be faster than Minato's, and by default, Tobirama's too.

Naruto proved himself to be faster than Ei in his scuffle against him during the war.

Itachi is difficult to place, but I'd say his Shunshin is marginally slower than Tobirama's, which was comparable to Minato's.

Naruto > Ei > Minato > Tobirama > Itachi.​​


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## Rocky (Jun 7, 2015)

Those were mistranslations because "Shunshin" means teleportation in Japanese. Rin was talking about FTG there, and what Tobirama meant is unclear.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Those were mistranslations because "Shunshin" means teleportation in Japanese. Rin was talking about FTG there, and what Tobirama meant is unclear.



Are you sure? We never saw Minato actually tag that fodder ninja with Hiraishin, nor did we see him throw a kunai near his real body to teleport. It wasn't until the fodder _made noise_ that Minato actually knew his location, which would suggest he used Shunshin rather than Hiraishin.

As for Tobirama, in all the translations I've seen, he said Minato's Shunshin was faster than his own. Anyway, I don't know what else he could have meant.​​


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## Rocky (Jun 7, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> We never saw Minato actually tag that fodder ninja with Hiraishin.



_We_ _did. _



> As for Tobirama, in all the translations I've seen, he said Minato's Shunshin was faster than his own. Anyway, I don't know what else he could have meant.



Stream & Panda say Shunshin, and Viz says teleportation iirc.

But yes, I suppose Tobirama was most likely talking about the Body Flicker given what he himself proved capable of later in the war in regards to Hiraishin.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> _We_ _did. _



He seemed to have touched his foot, but that's really not any guarantee that Minato actually tagged him, since it was never shown or stated. 

Not that this argument really matters, since his SNJ was claimed to be faster than Tobirama's, we don't need Rin to tell us that it's quick.​​


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## Rocky (Jun 7, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> He seemed to have touched his foot, but that's really not any guarantee that Minato actually tagged him, since it was never shown or stated.​​



You must be missing this:


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## Veracity (Jun 7, 2015)

I'm still under the impression that Tobirama wasn't talking about Minato's flicker because:

A) he said teleportation. Which can mean flicker, but has a more accurate relation with FTG

B) he said better and not faster. I feel like if Minato's flicker was faster, better wouldn't be an accurate word to describe it. 

C) his feats don't really correlate with that statement. Unless you assume he was using flicker( Shinobi hardly ever travel long distances with a flicker), which is very unlikely considering he arrived at the exact same time as Hirzuen and Hashirama.


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## Ersa (Jun 7, 2015)

*1st place*: Naruto
*2nd place*: Ei
*3rd place*: Minato
*4th place*: Itachi
*5th place*: Tobirama


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## Rocky (Jun 7, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I'm still under the impression that Tobirama wasn't talking about Minato's flicker because...
> 
> ...unless you assume he was using flicker (Shinobi hardly ever travel long distances with a flicker), which is very unlikely considering he arrived at the exact same time as Hirzuen and Hashirama



Him talking about Hiraishin doesn't make sense either. The only thing Minato had just done that could be considered impressive was moving the Bijudama to the ocean, but Tobirama is also capable of doing that.

That means Tobirama was probably talking about the speed at which Minato arrived at the battlefield, which would be in line with Hiruzen's comment anyway. 

My guess is that they were all traveling together until Minato turned on the jets and sped ahead to rescue the alliance. Tobirama saw this and concluded Minato could move faster than him. That's the only thing I've got.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You must be missing this:



No, I saw that. I just don't know why that is any indication that Minato definitely used Hiraishin and not Shunshin. He was slipping his bag off of his shoulder anyway, so it was naturally going to fall once he dropped it to attack.

*Edit* Oh. I get it now. 

My bad, I thought those characters on his foot were an indication that he had made noise (allowing Minato to know where he was), not a Hiraishin symbol.​​


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## Veracity (Jun 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Him talking about Hiraishin doesn't make sense either. The only thing Minato had just done that could be considered impressive was moving the Bijudama to the ocean, but Tobirama is also capable of doing that.
> 
> That means Tobirama was probably talking about the speed at which Minato arrived at the battlefield, which would be in line with Hiruzen's comment anyway.
> 
> My guess is that they were all traveling together until Minato turned on the jets and sped ahead to rescue the alliance. Tobirama saw this and concluded Minato could move faster than him. That's the only thing I've got.



As much as I love tobirama, he isn't confined to have a FTG barrier. He said he could warp a Juubidama, but that could easily be his Edo incarnation touching the ball of chakra and warping away. Which is what I'm thinking he meant.

base Minato is only better than Tobirama regarding FTG in two ways. And when Tobirama made that statement, minato had scattered FTG level 2 Kunai and warped the juubidama via FTG barrier. I think I'm gonna go with that.


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## Rocky (Jun 7, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> He said he could warp a Juubidama, but that could easily be his Edo incarnation touching the ball of chakra and warping away.



Is this not what Minato did? The Space/Time Barrier is illustrated differently than any normal Hiraishin. The barrier basically swallows what runs into it.



The Jubidama just vanished:



...which points towards Minato just warping it away.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato's Shunshin is featless outside of rescuing baby Naruto and intercepting Kakashi, so how it can be overrated is lost on me.
> 
> What we know is that A was the fastest and Naruto is comparable to him. How the other three stack up is anyone's guess, but I tend to lean towards the characters that are legendary for their quickness. That said, the difference is probably negligible.



Says featless, then names two feats . Thats not featless.

Then theres the feat of intercepting kuramas claw (same claw sage naruto noted to be fast and couldnt react to) strike on kushina via shunshin, and then using shunshin again to get several meters away, up to that small cliff. Then theres the moving from the hoakge faces to on top of kurama in the space of two panels (several hundred meters away).

-Databook states Fourth Raikage in lightning chakra mode is as fast as the yellow flash.
-Bee compares narutos first shunshin to the yellow flash, but yamato states its only similar to an extent, but doesnt go beyond that.
-bm naruto blitzes past kakashi and gai and first assumption is wondering if its minato.

Sorry but if the author labels someone faster than another, that i'll take the authors words. I dare anyone to show me in the manga or any databook where it states ftg is the reason minato was the fastest. I can tell you now its a waste of time searching, because it doesnt exist. Sasuke was praised for god like speed in databook 3 i beleive. Because of sasukes outstanding foot speed/shunshin. Ei lightning chakra mode was also described to have god like speed. Then in Minatos db4 profile, he was stated to be the greatest in god like speed. All of whoch are describing shunshin. Ftg is never once mentioned.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Minato's Shunshin no Jutsu is supposedly faster than Tobirama's, and was _noted_ for its speed during the Kakashi Gaiden too.
> 
> That said,_ *Minato was known as the fastest man in the world not on the basis of his Shunshin, but rather on his reaction speed and Hiraishin.*_* Ei's Shunshin should be faster than Minato's, and by default, Tobirama's too.*
> 
> ...


The bold is a lie. Get manga proof or databook evidence of this, because i know you just made it up. Never has minatos reaction speed been hyped towards minato being the fsstest. Not has hiraishin ever been stated to be the reason for minatos reputation as the fastest. Not at all. His nickname was given to him because of his mastery of ftg, and nothing more. However in the manga, his shunshin is also associated with his nickname by the likes of bee, yamato and obito, and i think tsuande.

No naruto proved he was able to outmanoeuvre Ei "once!" after about 3 prior failed attempts against v1. That in no way makes naruto faster. Its like if my opponent is finally able to dodge one of my punches after a series of failed attempts, that doesnt make him quicker. Just means he finally succeeded. Ei never once failed to keep up with naruto and was always able to follow him.

Tobiramas shunshin is not comparable to minatos, considering the gap minato displayed between their arrivals on the battlefield. Tobirama praises minato for being better than him, implying that tobirama was once the best as shunshin. Which madara pretty much implies later on, by saying he was once the fastest of their time.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 7, 2015)

1. Naruto
2. A
3. Minato
4. Tobirama
5. Itachi

At least that's what the feats all them displayed shows.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Is this not what Minato did? The Space/Time Barrier is illustrated differently than any normal Hiraishin. The barrier basically swallows what runs into it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, minato doesnt have he chakra to teleport juubidama in base with ftg. Its too big. The barrier uses less chakra. Plus db confirms that it suctions objects instantly. So could just be retcon from kishi or lazy drawing. Either way, minato definitely used barrier to teleport juubi dama.


Base minato + s/t barrier vs Juubi bijuudama = no sweat

Minato in nine tails chakra mode + ftg vs shinobi alliance = out of breath


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 7, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> The bold is a lie. Get manga proof or databook evidence of this, because i know you just made it up. Never has minatos reaction speed been hyped towards minato being the fsstest. Not has hiraishin ever been stated to be the reason for minatos reputation as the fastest. Not at all. His nickname was given to him because of his mastery of ftg, and nothing more. However in the manga, his shunshin is also associated with his nickname by the likes of bee, yamato and obito, and i think tsuande.



Minato was canonly stated to be the fastest man in the world by Ei. He was the only person fast enough _to react_ to Ei's fastest punch (by using Hiraishin). It therefore only makes sense that his reaction speed contributes towards that title. I don't remember his Shunshin no Jutsu ever being the reason that he was named the fastest.



> No naruto proved he was able to outmanoeuvre Ei "once!" after about 3 prior failed attempts against v1. That in no way makes naruto faster. Its like if my opponent is finally able to dodge one of my punches after a series of failed attempts, that doesnt make him quicker. Just means he finally succeeded. Ei never once failed to keep up with naruto and was always able to follow him.



Ei threw his strikes faster than Naruto could react apparently, but that doesn't make his _Shunshin no Jutsu_ faster. Naruto matched all of Ei's Shunshins just fine, and dodged his fastest punch using the Shunshin no Jutsu too, whereas his father needed Hiraishin to do so. That puts KCM Naruto's Shunshin above Minato's for sure. Naruto and Ei's Shunshins are very close to one another in speed, but I think Naruto's is slightly faster (he was referred to as a flash of yellow light when he used it).



> Tobiramas shunshin is not comparable to minatos, considering the gap minato displayed between their arrivals on the battlefield. Tobirama praises minato for being better than him, implying that tobirama was once the best as shunshin. Which madara pretty much implies later on, by saying he was once the fastest of their time.



Yes, I already stated that Minato's Shunshin is faster, but I don't believe that there is a huge gap between them either.​​


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## StickaStick (Jun 7, 2015)

Naruto 
Ei
Minato
Tobirama / Itachi
Itachi / Tobirama


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 7, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Minato was canonly stated to be the fastest man in the world by Ei. He was the only person fast enough _to react_ to Ei's fastest punch (by using Hiraishin). It therefore only makes sense that his reaction speed contributes towards that title. I don't remember his Shunshin no Jutsu ever being the reason that he was named the fastest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



FTG>>>Shunshin. The speed of the two techniques are not comparable, as stated in the second databook. Thefore minato relys more on the superior option, because its more beneficial and effective. In what world does that mean minato "needed" ftg and couldnt have used shunshin. If you can honestly tell me that youd rely on an inferior technique when you have a much better option, then i concede. But anyone with a brain knows this isnt the case.

Minato countered eis top speed via ftg. Naruto could only dodge with shunshin. Why? Because shunshin is inferior. Minato was fighting ei, aiming to win, ei had full killing intent. Meanwhile naruto was only trying to get past ei, and ei was only trying to stop him. So how can you even begin to compare both scenarios. If minato used shunshin against ei, all he would have accomplished is evading ei...but then what? That wasnt minatos intention, he wanted to counter him, not outspeed him. 

The conclusions and assumptions you have made are pretty poor. Theres a reason Bee said narutos shunshin looked just like minatos. Its because bee has see minatos shunshin before. This is because minato has faced against ei and bee many different times (confirmed by ei in the manga) and written in the databook. So just because minato didnt use shunshin in their first meeting, doesnt mean he didnt in their second, third, fourth or tenth confrontation. At the end of the day, which technique benefits minato more in a fight vs ei.. If you can answer that, then there shouldnt really be a discussion.


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## Veracity (Jun 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Is this not what Minato did? The Space/Time Barrier is illustrated differently than any normal Hiraishin. The barrier basically swallows what runs into it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why wouldn't he use space time barrier at that point though ? He can't warp anything away without actually touching it or using space time barrier. Minato was never shown touching nor was a clone implied to have been used.

To even further push my point, Minato appeared at the battle and was looking at Naruto\sakura when the Bjuiibomb appeared and exploded in ocean. Meaning he pretty had to have warped it with a FTG barrier or atleast a clone. And we both know he didn't use a clone there.

KISHI also doesn't illustrate everything all the time. Same way he doesn't illustrate the smoke for FTG and Flicker all the time or wen illustrate seals.


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## Kyu (Jun 8, 2015)

> FTG>>>Shunshin.



In combat? It depends what ninja using Hiraishin and Shunshin we're talking about. In Minato's case, of course FTG would be his go-to move against a speedster like Ei. However, there are instances where a Shunshin trumps an FTG user in combat due to a lack of time to react and teleport out of harms's way. 

To escape? FTG is more practical more often than not. 

This is me not factoring in jutsu derived from FTG such as Hiraishin: Dōrai.




> The speed of the two techniques are not comparable, as stated in the second databook.



Correct, because FTG isn't speed(as in the body moving on its own accord to reach a destination). It's teleportation that is only as good as the user's reactions.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato's Shunshin is featless outside of rescuing baby Naruto and intercepting Kakashi, so how it can be overrated is lost on me.


With first one being arguably allowed by Obito and the second done while KCM was active.

Minato didn't blitz anyone with shunshin on panel. He is obviously fast with it but I don't think he can equal someone like A(normal RCM shunshin). Top Tier reactions + Hiraishin - what made him the fastest of his era.


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

What point are you rebutting. I agree with you.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What point are you rebutting. I agree with you.


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

I did say: 



> 1.) A/Naruto
> 
> 2.) Tobirama/Minato
> 
> 2a.) Itachi


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## Trojan (Jun 8, 2015)

Minato is superior to Tobirama in both Shunshin and FTG. 



> Minato's Shunshin is featless outside of rescuing baby Naruto and intercepting Kakashi, so how it can be overrated is lost on me.



And saving Kushina from Kurama's attack? Crossing Konoha in less than a second?
Going all around the Juubi and marking the place before anyone noticing him? Those feats even exceeds
anything A or even Naruto did honestly. Which the Databook seems to make it sound like A was only comparable
to Minato in term of shunshin rather than the FTG actually.


As for Tobirama, he has never teleported a TBB, we don't know if he is capable of teleporting the same as Minato or not, and no, what he said about Obito's TBB is not a proof enough because the Juubi's TBB was MUCH bigger. 

As for Minato's superiority in FTG was mentioned in the Databook several times, and because of that superiority
he was able to get the Nickname "Yellow Flash" which Tobirama was never able to achieve.



> Is this not what Minato did? The Space/Time Barrier is illustrated differently than any normal Hiraishin. The barrier basically swallows what runs into it.



Tobirama said he will use the FTG, he does not have a barrier.

@Kyu



> Correct, because FTG isn't speed(as in the body moving on its own accord to reach a destination). It's teleportation that is only as good as the user's reactions.



FTG is speed.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 8, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> With first one being arguably allowed by Obito and the second done while KCM was active.
> 
> Minato didn't blitz anyone with shunshin on panel. He is obviously fast with it but I don't think he can equal someone like A(normal RCM shunshin). Top Tier reactions + Hiraishin - what made him the fastest of his era.



Doesnt matter if Obito allowed it, he still praised minatos speed and associated the feat to his nickname "the yellow flash"

Pretty sure the kakashi feat is the kakashi gaiden feat where he stopped kakashis chidori. Anyway, the kcm feat is not a feat that base mianto is unable to replicate. First of all, minatos shunshin was already very good, kcm didnt increase that. It did for narutot becsuse he had no skill in it. Secondly, minatos shunshin acrosss konoha to stop kurama trumps that feat, so again, its a feat base minato could easily replicate, considering hes already produces a feat of much greater distance. Apart from chakra arms and tails, minato showed absolutely nothing that he couldnt already do. We know kcm increased narutos speed because he crashed into a wall and was unable to control it. If minato also got a substantial speed boost, he wouldnt have been able to control it well, without training. Naruto had to practice to handle kcm shunshin.

"Top tier reactions" is fanfic. Get the manga panel where it says his reactions are the reason for his speed hype. Get the page where it says ftg is the reason for his speed hype. All fanfic. Funny because people on this same forum are saying Eis base reflexes are comparable to minatos, but in rcm is greater than minato. So come on people, which is it?

You say you dont think he can equal rcm, databook says it does. Id like to point out that obitos kamui was praised as moving at incredible speed. He also uses teleportation like minato and has reacted to Eis shunshin blitz and jinton. So why isnt he praised as the fastest? alot of conflicting statements in this place. Some say teleportation isnt speed, yet same people will say minato is fast because of it.


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## Trojan (Jun 8, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> With first one being arguably allowed by Obito and the second done while KCM was active.
> 
> Minato didn't blitz anyone with shunshin on panel. He is obviously fast with it but I don't think he can equal someone like A(normal RCM shunshin). Top Tier reactions + Hiraishin - what made him the fastest of his era.



Where has it ever mentioned that obito allowed anything? Lol


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 8, 2015)

imo shunshin speed is all the same, so it comes down to the ninja's ability to activate it and the distance they can travel with it.  Distance is too small to matter.  Minato and Tobirama have the best reflexes, followed by Naruto Ei and Itachi.

Ei might win because he can and might crash his body into the dude and kill them, while everyone else has to swing a blade.  Toss up between him and Tobirama, who likes to put a sword in front of himself when he dashes. Minato could win if he runs and throws shuriken.  The difference is milliseconds anyway.


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## Trojan (Jun 8, 2015)

And minato did not put the kunai in front of him when he tried to attack obito?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 8, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> imo shunshin speed is all the same, so it comes down to the ninja's ability to activate it and the distance they can travel with it.  Distance is too small to matter.  Minato and Tobirama have the best reflexes, followed by Naruto Ei and Itachi.
> 
> Ei might win because he can and might crash his body into the dude and kill them, while everyone else has to swing a blade.  Toss up between him and Tobirama, who likes to put a sword in front of himself when he dashes. Minato could win if he runs and throws shuriken.  The difference is milliseconds anyway.



A has better reflexes than all of them.

You may argue that Naruto with KCM has on par reflexes with Minato but should have higher in KCM V2.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 8, 2015)

First place is Naruto.

Second is Ay.

Third is Minato.

Fourth is Tobirama

Fifth is Itachi.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 8, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> imo shunshin speed is all the same, so it comes down to the ninja's ability to activate it and the distance they can travel with it.  Distance is too small to matter.  Minato and Tobirama have the best reflexes, followed by Naruto Ei and Itachi.
> 
> Ei might win because he can and might crash his body into the dude and kill them, while everyone else has to swing a blade.  Toss up between him and Tobirama, who likes to put a sword in front of himself when he dashes. Minato could win if he runs and throws shuriken.  The difference is milliseconds anyway.



You know what, i used to think the exact same thing. That all shunshin is the same speed and that it came down to ones ability and skill with it ie distance and chakra usage. I dont think that anymore though.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 8, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Doesnt matter if Obito allowed it, he still praised minatos speed and associated the feat to his nickname "the yellow flash"



 Really doesn't mean anything when Base Ei has speed that surpasses most Kage Level Ninja out there.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 8, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Really doesn't mean anything when Base Ei has speed that surpasses most Kage Level Ninja out there.



Any feats of base ei.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 8, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> You know what, i used to think the exact same thing. That all shunshin is the same speed and that it came down to ones ability and skill with it ie distance and chakra usage. I dont think that anymore though.



Why not?



> A has better reflexes than all of them.
> 
> You may argue that Naruto with KCM has on par reflexes with Minato but should have higher in KCM V2.



Shi said Ei's reflexes were on par with or rivaled Minato's.  But Minato let Ei make that first move twice, and reacted to him, so I go with Minato being more reflexive.  Any reason to think otherwise?


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

C said that A's natural reflexes are on par with Yellow Flash. Raiton Chakra Mode boosts them even further. RCM A can activate shunshin and nearly bash Minato's head off _before_ Minato reacts with speed-of-thought Hiraishin.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 8, 2015)

I always thought Minato waited for the counter.  It's sort of the thing he does in all his fights.  He certainly didn't seem bothered by the second punch.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

His face pre and post warp didn't look like everything went according to his calculations.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 8, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Why not?


Because we know ei can up his speed, we know kcm naruto upped his speed when he finally managed to evade raikage, so its a given that the speed varies. When raikage faced madara, he was complaining saying he needs more speed. So yeah, i understood your thought process, i believed it too at one point.  


> Shi said Ei's reflexes were on par with or rivaled Minato's.  But Minato let Ei make that first move twice, and reacted to him, so I go with Minato being more reflexive.  Any reason to think otherwise?



Cee's wording is confusing and controversial. People think he was saying base raikages reflex speed is on par with the yellow flash. But his phrasing is kinda nonsense. Because then after he says that he's surprised taka are able to keep up (he's talking as if raikage is fight ing in base when he's not). Then afterwards says...however once hes clad in lightning chakra, not even the sharingan can keep up. Problem with this is that raiakge has pretty much zero speed feats in base. And when raikage started fighting taka, he was in lightning chakra mode from the get go. So how can he say sasuke cant keep up once he goes in rcm, when the whole of taka have been keeping up since? You see what im saying?

I also dont understand peoples reasoning. Suigetsu intercepted v1 raikage, jugo also reacted to and blocked v1 raikage. Sasuke evaded and countered ei in v1.p wih chidori. The bottom line is, v1 ei isnt that fast, any decent jonin tiered ninja can keep up with and react to v1. However we saw minato react *and counter attack!!* v2. Therefore i think Cee is either full of crap, or kishi just didnt word this properly. Not to mention, has cee ever even seen the yellow flash (cee would have been younger than kakashi when minato winato was alive) or was he just wanking his raikage?

Then the lovely databook straightens up the entire thing. Under RCM's profile it specifically says:
_A god-like speed that also catches up with Naruto in Tailed—Beast chakra mode, and even *praised to be as fast as the “Yellow Flash*”_
So someone tell me, how can minatos speed can only be base raikage level, but then the databook specifcally states that rcm is "praised" to be as fast as minato. Really nothing else to debate after this.

I also find it intriguing that when killer bee sees narutos shunshin, he says its like the yellow flash. Says nothing about hos brother though.


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## Veracity (Jun 8, 2015)

Ay can only up his speed Twice though. From Base -> to V1 and from V1 -> to V2. Kcm Naruto only ever upped his speed against AY because he couldnt properly control it to begin with. The flicker he used against Ay is the fastest he was ever going to get, and was a mastered flicker. People like Minato and Ay have already mastered their flickers, so their speed won't be changing in a match.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 8, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Why not?
> 
> 
> 
> Shi said Ei's reflexes were on par with or rivaled Minato's.  But Minato let Ei make that first move twice, and reacted to him, so I go with Minato being more reflexive.  Any reason to think otherwise?



Shi said A and Minato's reactions were on par, but A had the ability to amp up his shroud further(what we call V2). Meaning his reactions had potential go beyond Minato's.

Minato being able to A doesn't make him faster, actually.
Deidara reacted to Sasuke, he surely doesn't have better reflexes does he ?


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## Kyu (Jun 8, 2015)

> FTG is speed.



Don't even start.

Instantaneous Teleportation =/= any speed requiring actual movement of the body

FTG functions on a seal formula(obviously) and being able to mentally respond to your surroundings. 

Nothing more.





> Then the lovely databook straightens up the entire thing. Under RCM's profile it specifically says:
> A god-like speed that also catches up with Naruto in Tailed—Beast chakra mode, and even praised to be as fast as the “Yellow Flash”



I can see this to a certain extent.

3t Sasuke ducked under v1 RCM Ei's Elbolt. Minato surely has comparable if not outright superior reactions and speed to kage summit Sasuke. Minato and v1 RCM Ei are in the same ballpark in terms of speed.

v2 RCM is what allows Ei to surpass base Minato's physical capabilities, yet still fall short of the fourth's ability to perceive movement.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 10, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Don't even start.
> 
> Instantaneous Teleportation =/= any speed requiring actual movement of the body
> 
> ...



Speed=Distance/Time... right? I dont know, but ive seen more than one person state that teleportation is speed. Kishi seems to think so anyway.

Exactly what im saying. If so many people could react to v1 and sasuke even countered it. Then of course minato can evade with his on physical capabilities, that isnt even up for debate. Especially since minatos abilities to perceive speed are greater than sasukes MS, who couldnt follow v2. Also Someone tell me if Ei used V1 or V2 against Madara here:1

Question is can minatos without ftg keep up woth v2. Firstly we know he can react to v2 and perceive eis top speed. Minato made 5 actions when he reacted to v2 - flicked kunai above ei, teleported 2 times in quick succession, caught kunai on eis back, went for kunai slash. While ei was still frozen in place in v2. So you tell me, if he can make 5 different actions with about 3 different body movements while ei is still in v2. Then why cant he use 1 shunshin against v2?

Kcms shunshin has been compared to Ninatos own shunshin by multiple, and at one point said to be below minatos level. Killer Bee said it, Yamato said it, and Tsunade said narutos shunshin looked just like the yellow flash when he dodged v2. So if kcm is described in the same speed bracket as minato, then why wouldnt minato be able to dodge v2?


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

are people ignorign minato shunshin feat when he got to gaiden kakashi?

1

this was in fact shunshin he used to get there, why i say so is because Rin makes no comment about his amazing speed

yet once he uses hirashin she is like omg how fast 

1

while minato is super fast i doubt his shunshin will be faster than A pumping bijuu chakra into shunshin

1) it doesnt need to be faster when he got ftg 

2) shunshin is based on chakra quantity and control...

he has much less chakra than either naruto or A so his shunshin shouldnt be faster than theirs


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> are people ignorign minato shunshin feat when he got to gaiden kakashi?
> 
> 1
> 
> ...



I didnt forget abput that feat. Its just some people think it was ftg, which is so sad to be honest. Plus i didnt feel it was worth mentioning because out of every single Minato shunshin feat we've gotten on panel, that one isnt even in the top 3.

Difference between Eis V2 feats and Minatos shunshin feats is that Minatos best feats have displayed longer distance shunshins that Ei ever has. Strictly speaking feats, Ei has not shown a shunshin feat that rivals Minatos in terms of the distance minato travelled. Nor has kcm naruto. You can check but you wont find any. Speed = Distance/Time... Well in that case, based on feats, Minato is the fastest because all his shunshin feats appear instantaneous, we've never seen his shunshin in motion before, only him reaching his destination in a flash.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> I didnt forget abput that feat. Its just some people think it was ftg, which is so sad to be honest. Plus i didnt feel it was worth mentioning because out of every single Minato shunshin feat we've gotten on panel, that one isnt even in the top 3.
> 
> Difference between Eis V2 feats and Minatos shunshin feats is that Minatos best feats have displayed longer distance shunshins that Ei ever has. Strictly speaking feats, Ei has not shown a shunshin feat that rivals Minatos in terms of the distance minato travelled. Nor has kcm naruto. You can check but you wont find any. Speed = Distance/Time... Well in that case, based on feats, Minato is the fastest because all his shunshin feats appear instantaneous, we've never seen his shunshin in motion before, only him reaching his destination in a flash.



I agree with you but then using your logic base killer bee is also faster than V2 A. 

since A has no feats of crossing a mountain range in 1 shunshin 

yet we know V2 A>>>>>>>>>>killer bee in speed

Based on how shunshin works for me it makes sense that V2 A be faster 

chakra quantity+ chakra control is all is required. A is top tier in both and has soooo much more chakra than minato 

do tell me someone who is super fast who doesn't have a huge chakra pool


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 10, 2015)

2nd scan is 100% FTG. He marked the guy's foot, it even zooms in a few panales prior to emphasize whats going to happen.

1st one is most likely FTG as well, the smoke at the ground is the indicator. He most likely tp'd to the kunai he gave Kakashi earlier. can't move.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 2nd scan is 100% FTG. He marked the guy's foot, it even zooms in a few panales prior to emphasize whats going to happen.
> 
> 1st one is most likely FTG as well, the smoke at the ground is the indicator. He most likely tp'd to the kunai he gave Kakashi earlier. can't move.





the first scan wasn't FTG based on the fact that rin didn't care to comment on minato speed

yet suddenly he uses hirashin and she mentions how fast he is 

kishi was clearly trying to make a distinction between the 2 

Also the puff of smoke when he saves kakashi is indicative of shunshin and not hirashin. when hirashin is used there is never a puff of smoke. that's a shunshin thing. 

do look it up before a weak reply or not 

and yes the second scan is clearly FTG as my post said


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I agree with you but then using your logic base killer bee is also faster than V2 A.
> 
> since A has no feats of crossing a mountain range in 1 shunshin
> 
> ...


difference between bee and minato is that minato was hailed as the fastest shinobi, bee wasn't. then there's the fact that bee has praised minatos shunshin without mentioning his brother and minatos shunshin is compared to kcm narutos on multiple occassions

Also turrin confirmed from the databook that killer bee infuses his v1 with lightning chakra as well. So don't know think bee is that much slower than raikage. Bee has pretty much equal speed to v1 ei. Considering the both equally matched each others speed with their double lariat. Also Bee's mountain jumping feat was off panel, from the time jugo realised he was gone, to when we next see bee, 4 panels have passed. So we don't know how long it took him to reach there.

itachi is fast, yet doesn't have particularly big chakra reserves and has poor stamina. Yet he blitzed hebi sasauke who was praised to have god like speed. It's not about chakra, it's about skill. Tobirama has more chakra than minato, yet minatos shunshin surpasses him. Third Raikage has more chakra and stamina than almost any ninja, but his shunshin is not the best.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 2nd scan is 100% FTG. He marked the guy's foot, it even zooms in a few panales prior to emphasize whats going to happen.
> 
> 1st one is most likely FTG as well, the smoke at the ground is the indicator. He most likely tp'd to the kunai he gave Kakashi earlier. can't move.



first scan is shunshin 
The rock ninja Mahiru calls minatos interception "movement"?

Turrins translation of the raw text:
Mahiro, "At the last moment, I was about to counter that kid matching his rhythm but..."
Mahiro, "that, blond haired bastard's movements...

FTG is instant, mahiru wouldn't have seen movement. Also smoke is not an indicator of ftg. Kishi doesn't use smoke for ftg, except for maybe indoors or on tree surfaces. Plus when minato does use ftg on mahiru when he kills him, there is no smoke. Not to mention mahiru doesn't recognise minato as the yellow flash until he uses ftg.

It's  quite simple reading.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 10, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> first scan is shunshin
> The rock ninja Mahiru calls minatos interception "movement"?
> 
> Turrins translation of the raw text:
> ...



Like I said, I'm not 100% sure. Though I don't think that guy was being technical about "movement."  So it doesn't disprove anything. 

Also I don't think there is a distinction for indoor or outdoor FTG  FTG is basically Kuchiyose, so smoke should be present in every instance. If its not there, its probably a preference of art or its simply forgotten.
 can't move.
can't move.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, I'm not 100% sure. Though I don't think that guy was being technical about "movement."  So it doesn't disprove anything.
> 
> Also I don't think there is a distinction for indoor or outdoor FTG  FTG is basically Kuchiyose, so smoke should be present in every instance. If its not there, its probably a preference of art or its simply forgotten.
> can't move.
> can't move.


Yeah it does. He saw movement. If it was ftg, he would have been shocked as to where he came from. Hence why his reaction was lackluster and why rin made no comment until the second time. Also Mahiru doesn't confirm minatos identity until he uses ftg. That's when he understands immediately that the yellow flash is him, because of teleportation. Why do you think he only called him "that blond haired bastard" the first time. Yet when minato got behind him, without even looking, he knew exactly that he was the yellow flash.


FTG has been used about 40 different times in the history of the manga. And only those 2 occassions you've posted is where smoke was present. That isn't at all any kind of proof of FTG or shunshin.

Anyway, there is better proof than that. The kanji used for FTG and Shunshin are not the same. Minato uses shunshin again to return to where he just came from..Notice to smoke and the Kanji:
can't move.
See how its the same kanji and smoke effect used for shunshin here:
can't move.
So why didn't kishi draw smoke here in the exact same chapter when ftg was used here can't move. (This is FTGs debut/reveal for the first time ever in the manga. There is clear emphasis on that)

Rin says "Masters art of teleportation is so fast" (Viz translation). She didn't say anything the first time minato saved kakashi, because it was just shunshin, every ninja knows what shunshin is, it's D rank and they're all chunin. However instant teleportion is rare, hence why Rin comments on it.


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## Kyu (Jun 10, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Speed=Distance/Time... right? I dont know, but ive seen more than one person state that teleportation is speed. Kishi seems to think so anyway.




Zero movement of the body is required to teleport. It's essentially taking yourself(&/or an object) from point A -> point B without physically taking a path between the two points.   Reaction time is the only 'speed related' aspect about it. It's not hard to understand. 

FTG's mechanics are more similar to the Summoning jutsu than a speed based technique like the Body Flicker. 


I can only explain this so many times without repeating myself.




> Also Someone tell me if Ei used V1 or V2 against Madara here:can't move.


v1. Ei's hair is down.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 10, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Zero movement of the body is required to teleport. It's essentially taking yourself(&/or an object) from point A -> point B without physically taking a path between the two points.   Reaction time is the only 'speed related' aspect about it. It's not hard to understand.
> 
> FTG's mechanics are more similar to the Summoning jutsu than a speed based technique like the Body Flicker.
> 
> ...


yet the databook says it's "high speed movement over long distances". It's no ones fault for being confused. Kishi wrote that himself.




> v1. Ei's hair is down.


why was ei restricted to v1 against madara 

perhaps because he can't harm edos?


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## Kyu (Jun 11, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> yet the databook says it's "high speed movement over long distances".



...and the databook contradicts itself in the same entry:



			
				Hiraishin no Jutsu - Databook II said:
			
		

> Bottom: It is not comparable to the movement speed of Shunshin. The principle is similar to that of Kuchiyose.



If you're looking for jutsu that grants "high-speed movement" look at Shunshin, Haku's Crystal Ice Mirrors, or Mabui's Heavenly Transfer technique, because FTG isn't it. 




> why was ei restricted to v1 against madara
> 
> perhaps because he can't harm edos?



v1 RCM proved itself sufficient in knocking Madara on his arse and allowing Mei to get her jizzy lava jutsu off. Not automatically opting for your ace doesn't mean you're restricted.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 11, 2015)

Kyu said:


> ...and the databook contradicts itself in the same entry:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its not contradicting itself.
In other words, its high speed movement over long distances via summoning, while shunshin is high speed movement via extreme body speed. All its saying is that the two techniques have different form of movement.

Ei was shocked Madara could react to his speed, despite the fact that most people can react to v1. He knows sasuke reacted to v1, so why would he then attempt to use v1 on someone much superior to the sasuke he faced.


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## ueharakk (Jun 11, 2015)

1) Naruto

2) Ei

3) Minato

4/5) Tobirama/Itachi


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## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> difference between bee and minato is that minato was hailed as the fastest shinobi, bee wasn't. then there's the fact that bee has praised minatos shunshin without mentioning his brother and minatos shunshin is compared to kcm narutos on multiple occassions
> 
> Also turrin confirmed from the databook that killer bee infuses his v1 with lightning chakra as well. So don't know think bee is that much slower than raikage. Bee has pretty much equal speed to v1 ei. Considering the both equally matched each others speed with their double lariat. Also Bee's mountain jumping feat was off panel, from the time jugo realised he was gone, to when we next see bee, 4 panels have passed. So we don't know how long it took him to reach there.
> 
> itachi is fast, yet doesn't have particularly big chakra reserves and has poor stamina. Yet he blitzed hebi sasauke who was praised to have god like speed. It's not about chakra, it's about skill. Tobirama has more chakra than minato, yet minatos shunshin surpasses him. Third Raikage has more chakra and stamina than almost any ninja, but his shunshin is not the best.



please where in the databook does it say killer bee infuses his V1 with lighting chakra am very curious

also that would have nothing to do with his moutain crossing shunshin 

itachi jutsu execution is fast, his physical speed shouldnt really be compared to people such as guy or minato 

itachi never blitz hebi sasuke. do show me where that happen

minato has better chakra control than tobirama perhaps? 

3rd raikage chakra levels are impressive but note his son has more chakra which is why his son is faster despite them using the same technique to enhance their speed


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## Alex Payne (Jun 11, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> first scan is shunshin
> The rock ninja Mahiru calls minatos interception "movement"?
> 
> Turrins translation of the raw text:
> ...


Kakashi had Hiraishin Kunai with him. Hiraishin DB2 entry had this instance as an example.



> Hiraishin no Jutsu
> 
> User(s): Yondaime Hokage
> Rank: S
> ...


 Iwa-nin started to freak out right after that instance. What other word he should have used when describing Minato? He was focusing on Kakashi and Minato suddenly appeared. A lot of things point towards it being Hiraishin. Simply having an option for Hiraishin is enough for Minato to chose it over Shunshin - especially when his teammates are in danger.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 11, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Yeah it does. He saw movement. If it was ftg, he would have been shocked as to where he came from. Hence why his reaction was lackluster and why rin made no comment until the second time. Also Mahiru doesn't confirm minatos identity until he uses ftg. That's when he understands immediately that the yellow flash is him, because of teleportation. Why do you think he only called him "that blond haired bastard" the first time. Yet when minato got behind him, without even looking, he knew exactly that he was the yellow flash.
> 
> 
> FTG has been used about 40 different times in the history of the manga. And only those 2 occassions you've posted is where smoke was present. That isn't at all any kind of proof of FTG or shunshin.
> ...



I don't know bro, I still think the evidence towards it being hirashin is stronger than contrary evidence. That smoke is exclusive to kuchiyose and thus FTG. We don't see smoke like that when someone uses Shunshin, mainly smoke is used  in the manga to indicate that something is "appearing" or "dissapearing."

Also like Alex said, in the databook, that particular panel is used in the Hirashin entry. That should conclude the debate, imo. Even if you believe my evidence isn't enough, then the DB entry should seal deal.


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## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kakashi had Hiraishin Kunai with him. Hiraishin DB2 entry had this instance as an example.
> 
> Iwa-nin started to freak out right after that instance. What other word he should have used when describing Minato? He was focusing on Kakashi and Minato suddenly appeared. A lot of things point towards it being Hiraishin. Simply having an option for Hiraishin is enough for Minato to chose it over Shunshin - especially when his teammates are in danger.



Nice one i gotta concede

though i never really believed minato shunshin would be much faster than hebi sasuke's for example

it has no reason to be much faster or even faster


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 11, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kakashi had Hiraishin Kunai with him. Hiraishin DB2 entry had this instance as an example.
> 
> Iwa-nin started to freak out right after that instance. What other word he should have used when describing Minato? He was focusing on Kakashi and Minato suddenly appeared. A lot of things point towards it being Hiraishin. Simply having an option for Hiraishin is enough for Minato to chose it over Shunshin - especially when his teammates are in danger.



No, the image is used to show how minato applies his jutsi shiki. Minatos hand is on the iwa ninjas foots, and you can see the arrow pointing towards it in order to show the reader.

"He saves Kakashi" - It doesnt say he teleports to kakashi or that he uses hiraishin to save kakashi. It only says saves. 

There are two images in that databook entry, in order to explain hiraishins funtion. The placing of the jutsu shiki (which is when minato puts in on Mahirus foot) - that is why that image is used.

And the second image shows us the teleportation behind the enemy. IT IS SHUNSHIN THAT SAVED KAKASHI, NOT HIRAISHIN.

If it was hiraishin, then why does the databook make no mention of the kunai kakashi had. It would have told us that minato teleported to the kunai that minato previously gave to kakashi. You have completely misinterpreted that databook scan. It uses arrows and careful wording and explanation, yet people are still getting it wrong. Of course they used that image, its the image that shows how minato places his markings on touched areas.


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## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

^good one 
you my friend are well informed


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't know bro, I still think the evidence towards it being hirashin is stronger than contrary evidence. That smoke is exclusive to kuchiyose and thus FTG. We don't see smoke like that when someone uses Shunshin, mainly smoke is used  in the manga to indicate that something is "appearing" or "dissapearing."
> 
> Also like Alex said, in the databook, that particular panel is used in the Hirashin entry. That should conclude the debate, imo. Even if you believe my evidence isn't enough, then the DB entry should seal deal.



Alex doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, read my above post.

You're clinging onto this smoke thing a bit too hard lol. It's really nothing.


Literally the next page you see minato shunshin back to obito and rins location. Tell me what you see in the image? Is it not the same shunshin symbol when minato just saved kakashi? ALso would you look at that...smoke. You cant tell me he used ftg to get back. So funny thing, this is actually another shunhin feat, he gets back to the same position he was just in with shunshun, a feat people overlook, there's no disproving that one. It's the same distance he travelled to save kakashi as well.

The kanji for Hiraishin is this:

Always has been

This is the kanji for shunshin and highspeed movement:



This kanji is also used for shunshin as well:
 - and i see smoke at sasukes feet
  - same one minato saves kushina with

Another shunshin with smoke from kakashi  He doesn't feel it inmediately.. smoke was actually a major indicator of shunshin back in part 1. There are others, i just can't remeber them all.


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## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Alex doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, read my above post.
> 
> You're clinging onto this smoke thing a bit too hard lol. It's really nothing.
> 
> ...



you are far too well studied on minato 

whats the kanji like when he gets to bunta when he fought against kyuubi? is it shunshin kanji or hirashin?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> you are far too well studied on minato
> 
> whats the kanji like when he gets to bunta when he fought against kyuubi? is it shunshin kanji or hirashin?



Lol, thanks. Well his lack of screen time makes it easier to analyse his small number of feats.

It's just the crashing sound effect of a toad crushing its opponent I guess. 
 He doesn't feel it inmediately. 
 He doesn't feel it inmediately. - Same effect is used when Naruto summons gamaken
 He doesn't feel it inmediately. - same effect for jirayas fcd, just different font.

Slam/Crash..usually used for heavy impact


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 11, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Alex doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, read my above post.
> 
> You're clinging onto this smoke thing a bit too hard lol. It's really nothing.
> 
> ...



How do you know he shunshin'd back ? He probably TP'd back.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How do you know he shunshin'd back ? He probably TP'd back.



Defintely didnt teleport. Ftg doesnt work without seals. Do you see any kunai or marking on the ground where minato and kakashi landed?

Then in the 2nd panel you can see the zoom effect and minato dashing away from the scene:
Sasuke's face or hand.

So its definitely shunshin. So even IF he didnt shunshin the first time (just an if, he most definitely did shunshin). Then he definitely shunshins when he returns to obito and rins location in an instant, which is the same distance he just covered e first time. There is no jutsu formula or kunai marking that says otherwise, just the ground beneath minatos feet.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 12, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Defintely didnt teleport. Ftg doesnt work without seals. Do you see any kunai or marking on the ground where minato and kakashi landed?
> 
> Then in the 2nd panel you can see the zoom effect and minato dashing away from the scene:
> *right into itachi's eyes as he talks to him*
> ...



I think you meant to post this page : Link removed

Yes, I missed that panel, that is certainly dashing. So Minato returned via shunshin thats 100% confirmed.

Although I'm not sure what to make of the databook page. If the sole purpose of that page was to show how the Hirashin mark worked, then the panels in the other page where you can see the marking on the guys foot would be better examples don't you think ?


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## Alex Payne (Jun 12, 2015)

Yeah, Minato returned via shunshin. But DB entry would have a different wording if it was just about markings. Like "Minato can place a mark everywhere he wants" or something. Yet it have "Minato saves Kakashi and places a mark". Saving Kakashi wouldn't be tied to Hiraishin usage if it was shunshin. And again - why would Minato chose Shunshin over Hiraishin?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 12, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think you meant to post this page : Link removed
> 
> Yes, I missed that panel, that is certainly dashing. So Minato returned via shunshin thats 100% confirmed.
> 
> Although I'm not sure what to make of the databook page. If the sole purpose of that page was to show how the Hirashin mark worked, then the panels in the other page where you can see the marking on the guys foot would be better examples don't you think ?


yes sorry, I meant that page.

The db does show the marking on Mahirus foot, it's just shown in small images:


However the image where Minato "saves" Kakashi is the only image that shows Minato placing the marking on Mahiru's foot. It wouldn't make sense without that panel. How would the reader know how the mark got there? The sole purpose isn't to show how the hiraishin mark works, the whole databook entry is to show how Hiraishin works, and what they have done is show the reader:
1. The jutsu shiki application (how it is placed onto the object)
2. The jutsu shiki/marking on the object/person
3. The teleportation to the enemy

None of this works without first showing Minato put his hand on Mahiru's foot. That part is important.


Alex Payne said:


> Yeah, Minato returned via shunshin. But DB entry would have a different wording if it was just about markings. Like "Minato can place a mark everywhere he wants" or something. Yet it have "Minato saves Kakashi and places a mark". Saving Kakashi wouldn't be tied to Hiraishin usage if it was shunshin. And again - why would Minato chose Shunshin over Hiraishin?



Honestly not sure why this is so hard. The DB entry has made it very clear, it's just simple reading comprehension at this point. First of all, Hiraishin doesn't use that kanji, shunshin does. The kanji for hiraishin are different symbols, go look at my other scan where I have explained this in detail. The one shown where minato saves kakashi has always been the high speed movement kanji, teleportation kanji is different.

Now do you know what your main mistake is? It's that you are under the assumption that the reader automatically knows that kakashi has one of minatos kunai in his possession. Yet the DB entry says nothing/makes no mention of that kunai. Do you not find that silly? How can the db say  (which it doesn't) that minato teleported to kakashi, without telling the reader how. It makes no mention of a marking on kakashi or that he has a kunai on him. The whole point of this entry is to show how the Hiriashin process works, yet you're saying the entry contradicts the entire thing by not telling us that "Minato teleports to Kakashi using the marked kunai he gifted to Kakashi" - it would say something along these lines, if minato did teleport to the kunai.

The wording is just fine. he "saves" kakashi. Doesn't say teleports, doesn't say uses hiraishin, just saves (and this is via body flicker). If he did use hiraishin, the databook would have directly told us that. 

Here's Minato's databook 2 profile. It's been cropped to Minato's space time ninjutsu section:


He it shows in this image the only TWO occassions Minato uses Hiriashin in Kakashi Gaiden.
1st Occasion - Teleports behind Mahiru, before killing him
2nd Occasion - Teleports to Kakashi's rescue after Obito's death
So why is the scan you believe to be minato teleporting to kakashi's rescue not present/included here? Because it was never hiraishin. Like i've said over and over, that image you think was hiraishin was only used to show the application of the jutsu shiki.

You ask me why Minato would opt for shunshin when he could have used hiraishin.. How should i know, because kishi wanted to do it that way. Remember when Tobi was about to stab baby Naruto and Minato saved him? Well when Minato teleported back to his safe house, minato took off e blanket with the bombs on it, then instead of immediately teleporting to his other safe house, he decides to dash out of the room with his foot speed. So your same question applies in that scenario as well. Are we really going to question all the illogical decisions kishi made? Not everything in the manga makes sense, however facts are still facts, even if we dont completely understand them.


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2015)

^i wanted to rep you again


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ^i wanted to rep you again



thanks, but imma guess and say I aint done yet. Hopefully that's the last of it though


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## Alex Payne (Jun 13, 2015)

Except the main _and_ largest picture in Hiraishin DB2 entry is Minato saving Kakashi. You don't use the instance of tag-placement as the main example of jutsu usage imo. Description says "saves and applies tag on the enemy". Text describes how Minato applies  Hiraishin to a kunai beforehand and can place tags via touch. 
So - 1)Kakashi got Kunai
2)DB entry - uses that instance as the main picture
3)It's illogical for Minato to choose Shunshin over Hiraishin


RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> You ask me why Minato would opt for shunshin when he could have used hiraishin.. How should i know, because kishi wanted to do it that way. Remember when Tobi was about to stab baby Naruto and Minato saved him? Well when Minato teleported back to his safe house, minato took off e blanket with the bombs on it, then instead of immediately teleporting to his other safe house, he decides to dash out of the room with his foot speed. So your same question applies in that scenario as well. Are we really going to question all the illogical decisions kishi made? Not everything in the manga makes sense, however facts are still facts, even if we dont completely understand them.


Or maybe using Hiraishin would have also warped explosive tags to the destination? It was very close - Minato was dashing while simultaneously removing tags. And it wasn't a very clear instance again. So please - don't label your own personal interpretations as "facts".

Those three points have more weight to me than counterpoints. You can't really 100% prove or disprove that it was Hiraishin. I think it was Hiraishin. You think it was Shunshin. GG. 

It wasn't really that good of a shunshin feat anyways. Any notable speedster can replicate it without much difficulty.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 13, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Except the main _and_ largest picture in Hiraishin DB2 entry is Minato saving Kakashi. Description says "saves and applies tag on the enemy". Text describes how Minato applies  Hiraishin to a kunai beforehand and can place tags via touch.
> So - 1)Kakashi got Kunai
> 2)DB entry - uses that instance as the main picture
> 3)It's illogical for Minato to choose Shunshin over Hiraishin
> ...


I gave a whole lot more points than this that you still cant counter. So you just picking out what you can gives the impresssion that you dont really know what you're talking about.

No the largest picture in the db entry is minato placing his marking on Mahiru's foot. They even draw an arrow pointing towards it so that any dummy can understand. The text later on talks about applying marks to weapons and such after, nothing specific, its not an indication of the the kunai kakashi has on him, its just a side note . What im telling you is that there is no mention of the kunai which is given to kakashi. How is the reader supposed to know how minato teleported to kakashi if they dont make mention of the marking on his person. You still havent told me where it says minato teleported to kakashi. "Saved" does not mean teleported. Assume the person reading the db is a nee naruto fan, hasnt reached that point in the manga yet. Or even an old naruto fan who has not read kakashi gaiden in years. How are those readers supposed to "guess" that kakashi has a kunai mark without the db saying so.

Are you alright? He removed the blanket and tossed them. How on earth would the bombs have followed him if he teleported. The moment minato separated the blanket from naruto, means he could teleport freely without the blanket going with him. And you know whats funny, Minato has the ability to teleport multiple objects/people and decide what he wants to leave behind. Like when he used foodcart destoryer onkurama, he was touching bunta, yet he teleported just kurama and left bunta. Or when he saved naruto and sasuke from juubito and left jubito behind. So he could have used frg and left the blanket behind wothout even removing them.

You want another example? Ok. When kurama was about to crush kushina, minato swooped in and used shunshin to save kushina and then used shunshin again to get up that small cliff? Why didn't he just grab her and ftg home immediately? Nope he decided to use ftg instead. 

Yeah thats what people always say in a losing debate. They cut their losses and say stuff like "oh well it wasnt that great anyway". Typical response. Your arguments are whack, so now you wanna settle without making it look like a concession. I'll take your concession, people who cant interpret the manga and simple databook explanations shouldnt really be reading naruto at all. You see shunshin symbols and people calling it movement, yet you still think mahiru can perceive instant teleportation lol. 

And yes it was impressive. He covered the same distance kakashi just ran at top speed in an instant. Then got in the middle of kakashi and the blade, without getting harmed, simultaneously marked the guy and retrieved kakashi, all in one move. There were many aspects of it that made it impressive, shunshin was just one of them.

And for the record, i dont "think" it was shunshin, I KNOW it was shunshin, its so obvious, You're the one who thinks its something else.


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2015)

well it was shunshin
mostly because its only after he gets behind the rock fodder than RIn makes a comment about how fast minato is


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> well it was shunshin
> mostly because its only after he gets behind the rock fodder than RIn makes a comment about how fast minato is



You'd think it would be that simple. But No! People tryrna overcomplicate the manga.


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