# Kuma Vs Ace



## $Kakashi$ (Jun 29, 2012)

Location: Punk hazard ice side 
Distance: 40 meters
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: none


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## Grimm6Jack (Jun 29, 2012)

Draw??? Ace's attacks, no matter how large they are would be useless since Kuma would just deflect them with his Paws and Ace cannot match or even use CoO to predict Kuma's teleport speed, however Kuma hasn't shown CoA to hit Ace and I don't know if he can bypass his intangibility with his "shockwaves".

Ace can defeat PX-0. Kuma with brain(wich is the one I am talking about) is another story.


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## Coruscation (Jun 29, 2012)

I'm leaning toward Ace. Taking Jimbei to a draw at 18 1/2 years old is freakish impressive and he was two years older than that as we knew him.


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## Wicked (Jun 29, 2012)

Ace uses entei on his dagger.


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## A Optimistic (Jun 29, 2012)

It wasnt a draw, Ace won that fight.


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## Coruscation (Jun 29, 2012)

Ace didn't win. They couldn't beat each other no matter how hard they tried, then Whitebeard arrived and broke it up. When Oda shows us them fighting for 5 days straight and ends it inconclusive then obviously they were equal. Though it's still a point worth making that Ace could still get up and actually fight after 5 days against Jimbei. Only makes it more impressive.


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## Chuck (Jun 29, 2012)

Ursus Shock should be able to disperse Ace far enough to screw with his logia regen IF it hits


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## Shinthia (Jun 29, 2012)

Avalon said:


> It wasnt a draw, Ace won that fight.



I agree with u . Jinbei pass out first then after 2 or 3 sec Ace go down( just like Luffy does after every fight ). And Ace still had enough strength left to attack WB till nightfall . 
But i dont understand why people keep saying they drew .


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## Shinthia (Jun 29, 2012)

The Flying Chuck said:


> Ursus Shock should be able to disperse Ace far enough to screw with his logia regen IF it hits



Ursus Shock take a lot of time to prepare , by the time its ready Kuma will b fried by Entai


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## Imagine (Jun 29, 2012)

Ace wins Logia intangibility is still on unless Kuma goes for a BFR he losses.


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## Chuck (Jun 29, 2012)

LazyOnigiriLuffy said:


> Ursus Shock take a lot of time to prepare , by the time its ready Kuma will b fried by Entai



hence why I said "IF it hits"


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## Shinthia (Jun 29, 2012)

The Flying Chuck said:


> hence why I said "IF it hits"



My bad ........ Gomennasaii


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## blueframe01 (Jun 29, 2012)

Ace wins this. How is Kuma going to damage Ace anyway? The fight will be a long one but eventually Kuma's body will be damaged enough and he will lose this fight.


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## Rob (Jun 29, 2012)

Kuma. 

10Kuma's.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 29, 2012)

Ace takes a vacation in a volcano


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## Rob (Jun 29, 2012)

^Ahhh, I see what you did there. Very clever. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Volcano=Magma (Or is it Lava?)


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## halaros536 (Jun 30, 2012)

No way to say for sure,but i'd go with Ace.


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## Tiger (Jun 30, 2012)

Personally, I think the idea of Kuma not having haki is .

However, since he's practically dead now, we'll most likely never know.

Since I can't prove that he has it, all I can do is cross my arms and say I think Kuma was ahead of Ace. But I have no evidence besides portrayal and power-scaling.

Ace's stalemate with Jimbei is pretty impressive, but I certainly don't believe Jimbei is on TB Kuma's level, either.


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## wstickman (Jun 30, 2012)

I'll say Kuma with nothing to back it up


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## DoflaMihawk (Jul 1, 2012)

I'll say Ace.

Entei > Ursus Shock?


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## Admiral Hakuryō (Jul 1, 2012)

Kuma is far too fast for Ace. He can BFR intangibles like Perona's ghosts, so his attacks should work on Ace too. Kuma wins, with mid difficulty.


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## DoflaMihawk (Jul 1, 2012)

Kuma's movement speed being much higher than Ace's doesn't mean much.


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## Tiger (Jul 1, 2012)

DoflaMihawk said:


> Kuma's movement speed being much higher than Ace's doesn't mean much.



It means quite a bit in a battledome, actually.


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## DoflaMihawk (Jul 1, 2012)

Why? If Ace can react appropriately then it shouldn't matter all that much.


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## Tiger (Jul 1, 2012)

DoflaMihawk said:


> Why? If Ace can react appropriately then it shouldn't matter all that much.



If someone is "much" faster, then that also suggests the person will not be able to _properly_ react.

If two people are around the same speed, and one is a bit faster - it doesn't generally make a difference.

Just because you can see an attack coming doesn't always mean you are fast enough to avoid it. If Kuma is "much" faster than Ace, there's not a whole lot Ace will be able to do about getting smacked around by Kuma's paws - or BFR'd at that. Now, Ace can propel himself with fire and stop himself from flying off so he can continue fighting, but he needs to actually be able to avoid those attacks.

It comes down to whether you think Kuma had haki or not, to be honest. I think it's pretty damn clear someone of his position would have haki, and I'd have a hard time not finding a lack of intelligence in someone who would assume he did not. However, we can't _prove_ he did - cuz he's gone. Robots obviously can't have haki.


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## Raid3r2010 (Jul 1, 2012)

Hard to tell.I'd say it's a tie or Kuma with extreme difficulty.


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## DoflaMihawk (Jul 1, 2012)

Law said:


> If someone is "much" faster, then that also suggests the person will not be able to _properly_ react.
> 
> If two people are around the same speed, and one is a bit faster - it doesn't generally make a difference.
> 
> ...



''Much faster'' in terms of movement speed. They're probably more or less equal when it comes to combat and reaction speed.

I doubt Kuma had Haki, but even so, BFR should still work on Ace, and it's not like Ursus Shock or Pad Cannon could be imbued with Haki anyway.


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## Tiger (Jul 1, 2012)

DoflaMihawk said:


> it's not like Ursus Shock or Pad Cannon could be imbued with Haki anyway.



You need to have some kind of reasoning when you say things like that.

If an arrow can be imbued with CoA haki, why not someone's DF attacks?


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## DoflaMihawk (Jul 1, 2012)

An arrow is a tangible object.

Though I don't have any evidence to speak of, I think intangible projectiles (e.g. Kizaru's lasers) can't be imbued with Haki.

Just my speculation for the moment.


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## Tiger (Jul 1, 2012)

That would make intangible projectile attacks practically useless in the New World I'm afraid. If Sentomaru can use haki and nothing else to hit Luffy from a few feet away, I don't see how you could come to that stance.


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## DoflaMihawk (Jul 1, 2012)

I just saw Sento's attack as an air attack, which would hurt Luffy even without Haki. And intangible projectile attacks would only be useless on Logias, and in that case, one would just engage in close-quarter combat.


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## Tiger (Jul 1, 2012)

DoflaMihawk said:


> I just saw Sento's attack as an air attack, which would hurt Luffy even without Haki. And intangible projectile attacks would only be useless on Logias, and in that case, one would just engage in close-quarter combat.



Sentomaru was hitting Luffy with haki from a distance. Not air.

If intangible projectiles couldn't be imbued with haki, it's not only logias they'd be useless against - but anyone who could use CoA haki to armor themselves as well.

So the majority of the New World, and _anyone_ important.


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## DoflaMihawk (Jul 1, 2012)

Could've been an air wave for all we know.

Then just don't use intangible projectiles. Go into CQC fights; that's what happened in the majority of the War. I don't recall any long-range fights between the Top Tiers.


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## Great Potato (Jul 1, 2012)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Kuma.
> 
> 10Kuma's.



I agree, it would take at least 10 Kumas to defeat Ace.


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## SsjAzn (Jul 2, 2012)

Kuma with difficulty


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## Raid3r2010 (Jul 2, 2012)

Great Potato said:


> I agree, it would take at least 10 Kumas to defeat Ace.



 

Sum1 is gonna get mad.


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## Coruscation (Jul 2, 2012)

> Sentomaru was hitting Luffy with haki from a distance. Not air.



No he wasn't. He hit him with his palm, armored with Haki.


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## Forcer (Jul 2, 2012)

I would say it can go either way


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## Tiger (Jul 2, 2012)

Coruscation said:


> No he wasn't. He hit him with his palm, armored with Haki.



He never actually touched him with his palm. It was only haki that actually made contact. And this is explained further when Luffy starts training with Rayleigh and he thinks back to that fight.

Those links don't prove your point, as much as you'd like them to. Those images are portraying palm strikes that don't actually connect physically to their target.

I didn't mean like the distance Jimbei can attack from, just not quite physically touching, but the haki hits further, as if an offensive barrier.


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## Coruscation (Jul 2, 2012)

How do they not connect physically? He's in physical attack range and uses a physical attack. People say "_How can strikes hurt Luffy?_".

If you mean he makes the armor thicker and strikes, thus slightly increasing the range of the attack, fine. No evidence for it but sure. But that is completely irrelevant to the point you were trying to make by bringing the scene up. Haki is NOT transfered through air. It's not "attacking with Haki". It's an armor on his palm, which he hits Luffy physically with. The difference between wearing a thin sheet of armor and a thick one. It's still the same thing.


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## Luis209 (Dec 19, 2012)

Kuma is faster than Ace and I dont know if Ace could make a serious damage on Kuma, because his impressive armor. Maybe with entei he can but if even BB survived a Entei and a Hiken, Kuma would survived too. And Kuma could even defeclt the attacks of Ace. 

I think Kuma is the winner here with a lot of troubles.


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## Shinryu (Dec 20, 2012)

Kuma can reflect *AIR* at light speed


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## Ceasar Drake (Dec 20, 2012)

Could kuma BFR flames


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## Kirin Thunderclap (Dec 20, 2012)

Kuma can reflect pain and fatigue yet people are questioning whether his pads can reflect a logia. 

Sweet Jesus..


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## tupadre97 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ace wins. Kuma wont even hit him.


ChaosX7 said:


> Kuma can reflect *AIR* at light speed



And? Still wont hit Ace.


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## Language of Life (Dec 20, 2012)

tupadre97 said:


> Ace wins. Kuma wont even hit him.
> 
> 
> And? Still wont hit Ace.



Because of Logia intangibility or because you think Ace is just to fast/mobile for Kuma to handle?


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## zorokuma (Dec 20, 2012)

kuma sends ace on a trip.

are people really asking if kuma can bfr ace? haki or no haki he bfred ghosts......ghosts...


he did it to pain and fatigue......

im sure he can do it to fire.


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## Ceasar Drake (Dec 20, 2012)

Kuma can slap him in his element form to the next dimension


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## αce (Dec 20, 2012)

By the logic in this thread Kuma is the strongest character in the manga.


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## tupadre97 (Dec 20, 2012)

Language of Life said:


> Because of Logia intangibility or because you think Ace is just to fast/mobile for Kuma to handle?



Ace is stronger than him in every category. BFR shouldnt work on Ace (bcuz of haki) and Ace could just hit him from behind and avoid his pads.


♠Ace♠ said:


> By the logic in this thread Kuma is the strongest character in the manga.


Its nothin but a bunch of wankers and fanboys here. U know u can beat him Ace it'd be easy for u.


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## Green Monkey (Dec 20, 2012)

tupadre97 said:


> Ace is stronger than him in every category. BFR shouldnt work on Ace (bcuz of haki) and Ace could just hit him from behind and avoid his pads.



Ace has shown literally 0 speed or strength feats. How you could come to the conclusion he's beyond him in every category is beyond me. There is no reason in hell to think Ace is as fast as Kuma.


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## tupadre97 (Dec 20, 2012)

Green Monkey said:


> Ace has shown literally 0 speed or strength feats. How you could come to the conclusion he's beyond him in every category is beyond me. There is no reason in hell to think Ace is as fast as Kuma.



Give me one reason why Ace shouldnt be about as fast or strong as current luffy (who would mop the floor with TB Kuma)


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## RF (Dec 20, 2012)

tupadre97 said:


> Give me one reason why Ace shouldnt be about as fast or strong as current luffy (who would mop the floor with TB Kuma)



Because he used nothing but his logia in every of his on panel feats. Ace having the same physical stats as current Luffy is beyond ridiculous. Not even Rayleigh and Kizaru could_ immediately_ react to Kuma. He can basically change locations. And he CAN BFR fire. He BFR's pain and fatigue,he sure as hell can BFR an element. Not to mention that he is a new world veteran,so it's a far bigger possibility that Kuma has stronger developed haki than Esu. With absolutely no speed or haki feats for Potogasu Di Esu,Kuma BFR's.


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## tupadre97 (Dec 20, 2012)

Red Guardian said:


> Because he used nothing but his logia in every of his on panel feats. Ace having the same physical stats as current Luffy is beyond ridiculous. Not even Rayleigh and Kizaru could_ immediately_ react to Kuma. He can basically change locations. And he CAN BFR fire. He BFR's pain and fatigue,he sure as hell can BFR an element. Not to mention that he is a new world veteran,so it's a far bigger possibility that Kuma has stronger developed haki than Esu. With absolutely no speed or haki feats for Potogasu Di Esu,Kuma BFR's.



He was said to be a strong physical fighter, was asked to join the shichibukai, and was a contender for pirate king but he isnt as strong as Luffy? Yea ok.

And Kuma has no real feats either. Ray knew he was right there when he teleported to him and even an injured preskip Zoro could dodge him. Even if haki doesnt protect against bfr (i dont see any reason why it wouldnt) Ace could easily dodge all his attacks and spam enteis in every direction so Kuma cant reflect them. Or just go behind him and firefist him. Kuma cant do a damn thing to him. And where does it say Kuma has been to the new world?


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## Kishido (Dec 20, 2012)

I give it to 2nd commander Ace. Rookie Ace was able to fight with Jinbe already on equal footing... Everyone praised him and BB himself said his crew to stay out cuz they are no match.

Ace with high dif


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## Zooted (Dec 20, 2012)

Ace wins high-extreme


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## Language of Life (Dec 20, 2012)

tupadre97 said:


> He was said to be a strong physical fighter, was asked to join the shichibukai, and was a contender for pirate king but he isnt as strong as Luffy? Yea ok.
> 
> And Kuma has no real feats either. Ray knew he was right there when he teleported to him and even an injured preskip Zoro could dodge him. Even if haki doesnt protect against bfr (i dont see any reason why it wouldnt) Ace could easily dodge all his attacks and spam enteis in every direction so Kuma cant reflect them. Or just go behind him and firefist him. Kuma cant do a damn thing to him. And where does it say Kuma has been to the new world?




Ace does indeed have a possibility of winning here, but your power scaling takes him way beyond the feats he has shown. It takes both hype and feats to make a characters strength, not just hype. Crocodile and Moria were also shichibukai and both Kuma and Ace could defeat them comfortably. Pirate king is nothing but potential. Everyone is a contender for pirate king if they want to be, Ace just had the luxury of Whitebeard as a captain. Being a PK contender says nothing about his strength, only potential.  

No one said he was not on or around Post-Luffy's level, but they fight very differently. Ace is a logia heavy fighter, he always uses his Logia in his fights over pure physical strength. Auger said his basic stats were good for someone who relies on a logia, and his ability to take a BB punch proved that, but there is nothing in the category of speed or strength that says he could get behind one of the manga's biggest speedsters and firefist him and or over power him. We don't know how effective his haki is, or kuma's for that matter, but at their level they both probably have it, and they should be around a similar level of use. 

Haki does not cancel a DF's power. It does not cancel Kuma's ability to BFR nor does it cancel his ability to reflect all things with his palm. Haki bypasses passive defence, ie logia intangibility, rubber's immunity to physical strikes etc.. Kuma's ability is to push, a continually active technique, no ones haki can bypass/cancel that, not because of their skill with haki but because that is not how haki works. 

Ace has no entei spamming feats. Why do you think he could do that? He has only ever been shown using one entei at a time. There is nothing saying Kuma could not push or dodge the one ace has canonically shown being able to create at a time. Entei is not very fast.

I see Kuma winning, but only with a BFR. None of Kuma's attack will be strong enough to put ace down or may not even be able to effectively hurt ace. Further more i dont think Ace has the speed to catch him with enough power attacks to put kuma down. A BFR to the middle of the ocean should work.


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## Mike S (Dec 20, 2012)

Luis209 said:


> if even BB survived a Entei and a Hiken, Kuma would survived too.



Saying Kuma would survive something because Blackbeard has, is idiotic. Your acting as if Blackbeards durability is low. He's a fucking tank.


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## ramealdabest (Dec 21, 2012)

Kuma takes this for the same reason most people have stated. The real question is, what difficulty?

About BFR, he can definitely send Ace flying. Anything that has mass, Kuma can send flying, hell he can even repel things that don't have mass (fatigue).


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## Doma (Dec 21, 2012)

I give this one to Ace. Kuma can't just BFR Ace that easily. He's going to have to wait for an opening. Otherwise he's going to get a hiken to the face. As for just normal repelling, I think people overrate that. Ace is going to get several hits in on Kuma. He has a wide variety of attacks, it's stupid to think that Kuma can repel every attack or just teleport whenever he's in trouble.


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## Yuki (Dec 21, 2012)

Ace takes this handily.


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## Shinryu (Dec 21, 2012)

Doma said:


> I give this one to Ace. Kuma can't just BFR Ace that easily. He's going to have to wait for an opening. Otherwise he's going to get a hiken to the face. As for just normal repelling, I think people overrate that. Ace is going to get several hits in on Kuma. He has a wide variety of attacks, it's stupid to think that Kuma can repel every attack or just teleport whenever he's in trouble.



sir the dude can reflect AIR at the speed of light he can reflect any physical matter


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## Doma (Dec 21, 2012)

Just because his df allows him to repel it, doesn't mean he's able to. If Ace surprises  or outmaneuvers him, he's going to get hits in and that's exactly what happens all the time in fights.


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## tupadre97 (Dec 21, 2012)

Doma said:


> I give this one to Ace. Kuma can't just BFR Ace that easily. He's going to have to wait for an opening. Otherwise he's going to get a hiken to the face. As for just normal repelling, I think people overrate that. Ace is going to get several hits in on Kuma. He has a wide variety of attacks, it's stupid to think that Kuma can repel every attack or just teleport whenever he's in trouble.



Yea for some reason ppl here seem to think Kuma's teleportation, repel, and bfr make him a god or something. Like someone said b4 by their logic they think he could beat anybody.


ChaosX7 said:


> sir the dude can reflect AIR at the speed of light he can reflect any physical matter


U dont get it, we know he can reflect everything he touches. The thing is he would never touch Ace and would get spammed by fire fists and enteis. And as far as we're concened Kuma only has the durability of a pacifista (unless this is a upgraded TS Kuma) so one hit and he's done.


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## Imagine (Dec 21, 2012)

I'm seeing a lot of Ace doesn't have physical strength feats and such. New flash, Ace doesn't use physical strength in his fighting style. Neither does Kuma. They're both DF whores.


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## Language of Life (Dec 21, 2012)

Imagine said:


> I'm seeing a lot of Ace doesn't have physical strength feats and such. New flash, Ace doesn't use physical strength in his fighting style. Neither does Kuma. They're both DF whores.



But you are also not seeing anyone saying Kuma wins because of his physical strength. Those who say Kuma win say he wins because of his DF. Those saying Ace wins are arguing he has some physical abilities he has not shown.


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## Kirin Thunderclap (Dec 23, 2012)

> U dont get it, we know he can reflect everything he touches. The thing is he would never touch Ace and would get spammed by fire fists and enteis. And as far as we're concened Kuma only has the durability of a pacifista (unless this is a upgraded TS Kuma) so one hit and he's done.




Your Kuma hate is getting a bit annoying now Tupadre, the worst part is that your not trolling, you're dead serious. 

What do you mean Kuma can't touch Ace? I still have a slimmer of hope that you're joking or trolling.


Also Kuma's durability>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pacifista's. Unless you think one G2 punch form Liffy would one shot Kuma, which I wouldn't actually find surprising, that you'd think that.


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## Pink Matter (Dec 23, 2012)

Hard to say since there aren't alot of Ace feats 

*Why Kuma wins*
He's able to deflect/dodge all of Ace's attacks via his DF. Kuma also has some good durability feats (small cut from Zoro's Shishi Sonson, undamaged from Ivankov's Galaxy Wink). He has the defensive advantage here. 

*Why Ace wins*
Kuma lacks the firepower to take down Ace. Ace's Logia intangibility is the major factor here since Kuma doesn't have Haki, nor can I imagine him still having Haki since he no longer has free will. Ace has the offensive advantage in this fight. I think he'll be able to wear Kuma down eventually with extreme difficulty.


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## mido (Dec 23, 2012)

what can ace actually do to damage kuma (besides nothing) ?

+ we've never seen kuma go serious or prooving haki knowledge..

i'd say kuma wins


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## tupadre97 (Dec 24, 2012)

Kirin Thunderclap said:


> Your Kuma hate is getting a bit annoying now Tupadre, the worst part is that your not trolling, you're dead serious.
> 
> What do you mean Kuma can't touch Ace? I still have a slimmer of hope that you're joking or trolling.
> 
> ...



Where is ur proof that Kuma is fast enough to touch Ace or that he has more durability than a pacifista? I'll wait.


mido said:


> *what can ace actually do to damage kuma (besides nothing) ?*
> 
> + we've never seen kuma go serious or prooving haki knowledge..
> 
> i'd say kuma wins



Are u joking? Ace has so many attacks its would be ridiculous.


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## Beckman (Dec 24, 2012)

tupadre97 said:


> Where is ur proof that Kuma is fast enough to touch Ace or that he has more durability than a pacifista? I'll wait.



Say, are you completley unable yo use any form of logic? All you are doing is throwing around the word "proof". I mean, can you prove Ace is fast enough to touch Kuma? Or can you prove that Roger is more durable than Usopp? They're made by the same material afteral so their durability should be the same with your logic.



I think this match should be pretty even. Personally I expect both of them to at least have some skills in haki so Kuma should be able to touch Ace just fine. But there's no reason to think Kuma would have any physical advantage either and Ace should be able to keep up just fine. Ace have tha advantage in offensive while Kuma have the advantage in defensive. In the end it comes down to who get worn out first.


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