# Prime Rayleigh is above the Yonko



## xmysticgohanx (Jul 19, 2021)

chapter 863, Viz

he says mere Emperor. At minimum this means Prime Rayleigh > her. At maximum it means a lot more.

this is the clearest evidence we have.

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## ShadoLord (Jul 19, 2021)

Old news

we knew the yonks are silver medalists 

anyone worth their salt in the PK crew would roll them over

Rayleigh+Scopper solos the entire yonk crew+yonk

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## TheMoffinMan (Jul 19, 2021)

Uh how does that prove anything? Are Crocus stronger than the Yonkous too? Or have we seen Jinbe tremble infront of prime Ray? If not then that doesn't prove anything of the sort...

Ofc prime Ray might very well be stronger than Yonks anyway.

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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 19, 2021)

TheMoffinMan said:


> Uh how does that prove anything? Are Crocus stronger than the Yonkous too? Or have we seen Jinbe tremble infront of prime Ray? If not then that doesn't prove anything of the sort...
> 
> Ofc prime Ray might very well be stronger than Yonks anyway.


At minimum it has to mean something. So strongest crew member > yonko st minimum

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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> chapter 863, Viz
> 
> he says mere Emperor. At minimum this means Prime Rayleigh > her. At maximum it means a lot more.
> 
> this is the clearest evidence we have.


Raleigh has nothing to do with this; what’s being said here is that the PK is > Yonko; so Jinbei can’t tremble in the presence of a Yonko when he wishes to be a crew mate of someone way stronger then a Yonko

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## MrPopo (Jul 19, 2021)

Nah

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## TheMoffinMan (Jul 19, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> At minimum it has to mean something. So strongest crew member > yonko st minimum


There's literally nothing in that panel which suggest such. It doesn't make any comparision between Yonkos and the Pirate Kings FM. Nor is Jinbe Luffys strongest follower.

It just shows what mentality you need to support the Pirate King. You can't run or fear Yonks when you're trying to make your captain the king.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## walter18x (Jul 19, 2021)

kaido seems shanks more high than him


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## Strobacaxi (Jul 19, 2021)

This isn't news.

Shanks was an apprentice in the PKs crew and he's a yonko
Rayleigh was the FM, imagine what he could be if he didn't want to retire with hookers and blackjack

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## Alex Payne (Jul 19, 2021)

Pirate King crew is indeed built different. Same with Jinbei's balls.

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## Subtle (Jul 19, 2021)

Yes, he is, 

The thing about Rayleigh is many form a conclusion witnessing his current state where he would be his weakest due to retirement and he was (temporarily) able to hold off Kizaru. A Prime Rayleigh, at his peak and not rusty in his ability, definitely.

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## Perrin (Jul 19, 2021)

More fuel for my Roger soloing BM and Kaido debate, sure I’ll buy in.

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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 19, 2021)

Turrin said:


> Raleigh has nothing to do with this; what’s being said here is that the PK is > Yonko; so Jinbei can’t tremble in the presence of a Yonko when he wishes to be a crew mate of someone way stronger then a Yonko


No. He specifically mentions crewmate of pirate king. And then proceeds to say “mere” Yonko.

What jinbe is saying is clear

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## Mihawk (Jul 19, 2021)

He's on the same level as Mihawk and Shanks I think.

Reactions: Like 3


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## MO (Jul 19, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> At minimum it has to mean something. So strongest crew member > yonko st minimum


Umm no. It means a crew member of the pirate king shouldn't fear a yonko. Thats doesn't translate to being stronger.

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## shintebukuro (Jul 19, 2021)

Jimbei knows that Luffy will become the PK and save the entire world. An Emperor is just a mini boss to that much bigger goal.

That's all he's saying.

He's not suggesting that random crewmates of the PK are all stronger than the Yonkou. Not in the slightest.


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## Perrin (Jul 19, 2021)

MO said:


> Umm no. It means a crew member of the pirate king shouldn't fear a yonko. Thats doesn't translate to being stronger.


Helps for soul pocus tho


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## Louis-954 (Jul 19, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> chapter 863, Viz
> 
> *he says mere Emperor. At minimum this means Prime Rayleigh* > her. At maximum it means a lot more.
> 
> this is the clearest evidence we have.


No it doesn't.

You tier junkies just can't help but interpret literally -everything- in the series as anything but some sort of headcanon indicator of strength. I assure Oda was not sitting there at his desk drawing these panels thinking to himself *"This is how I'm going to show and explain to everyone that prime Rayleigh is stronger than the Yonko even though Rayleigh has no relevance to this arc. That's my ultimate goal drawing this page. xmysticgohanx will surely take notice of the deeper meaning of my intent and tell the wider world for me"*. I know that's what you wish he was thinking, but I promise you it wasn't.

Jimbe was not speaking about strength at all right here, nor was he comparing Big Mom to anyone. He's speaking specifically about the status of her title relative to what the man he is serving is aspiring to be. Personally, I don't give a shit if Rayleigh in his prime is stronger than current Yonko. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. Don't care. But **this** is not what indicates it for either argument. You're displaying willful ignorance or terrible reading comprehension to claim it as such.

Your argument is as stupid as me trying to make the argument that since Roger avoided fighting Big Mom, that that means Big Mom is stronger than Rayleigh since his captain was 'afraid'.

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## MartyMcFly1 (Jul 19, 2021)

I don’t think this proves that Rayleigh is stronger, but I do think prime Rayleigh is stronger than Big Mom and Kaido.

Rogers right hand gotta be strong enough to lead a Yonkou+ crew in his own right. Him and Roger went through the world damn near undefeated as far as we know, I can’t imagine him losing to anyone really.

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## Klarionan (Jul 19, 2021)



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## Dellinger (Jul 19, 2021)

Is this a joke ?

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## Chronophage (Jul 19, 2021)

Prime Rayleigh is Yonkou tier. Whether he is stronger than Kaido and Big Mom remains to be seen. I have him at around 5th or 6th spot during Roger's era which is crazy strong.

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## Pyriz (Jul 19, 2021)

I don't think it means what you're suggesting. Jinbe is saying that a crewmate of the PK shouldn't fear a Yonko, which is true considering Yonko would be the future PK's peers and competition. I don't think anything he said suggests that PK crewmates would actually defeat a Yonko in battle, though. Not one on one, anyhow.

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## TheWiggian (Jul 19, 2021)

Finally someone who reads the damn manga

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## Sablés (Jul 19, 2021)

OP is spitting facts. Prime Ray would smack the Yonko.

Even Shanks is just a fanboy copying his sempai.

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## Mickey Mouse (Jul 19, 2021)

I appreciate the trolling here.

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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 19, 2021)

Pyriz said:


> I don't think it means what you're suggesting. Jinbe is saying that a crewmate of the PK shouldn't fear a Yonko, which is true considering Yonko would be the future PK's peers and competition. I don't think anything he said suggests that PK crewmates would actually defeat a Yonko in battle, though. Not one on one, anyhow.


He even called her a “mere” Emperor. The meaning is clear


TheWiggian said:


> Finally someone who reads the damn manga





Sablés said:


> OP is spitting facts. Prime Ray would smack the Yonko.
> 
> Even Shanks is just a fanboy copying his sempai.


I’m kinda disappointed at how little some people accept the manga like this. Headcanon is not superior to this. All we have is headcanon other than this.

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## trance (Jul 19, 2021)

"gohan, go troll the OL and farm them tier specialist ratings"

- oda probably

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## Stilzkin (Jul 19, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> chapter 863, Viz
> 
> he says mere Emperor. At minimum this means Prime Rayleigh > her. At maximum it means a lot more.
> 
> this is the clearest evidence we have.



He says tremble at not defeat.

Very different. The crew of the pirate king can't be afraid of a challenge. Doesn't mean they can deal with every challenge.

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## Jake CENA (Jul 19, 2021)

Prime Rayleigh indeed is >> Yonkos


While Crocus > Garp

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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 19, 2021)

trance said:


> "gohan, go troll the OL and farm them tier specialist ratings"
> 
> - oda probably


Oda and I do FaceTime a lot. We discuss tiering, I’m his favorite fan

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## Pyriz (Jul 19, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> He even called her a “mere” Emperor. The meaning is clear


Sure, but I think that's because the title of Pirate King is a step above Yonko in the hierarchy (note that I'm not necessarily referring to strength here). They're part of the crew of the man who's supposed to be on top, so of course they can't afford to be afraid of someone their captain is supposed to surpass. Again, I don't think there's anything here that implies that the PK's crewmates could actually defeat a Yonko.

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## Dellinger (Jul 20, 2021)

Kid Buggy and Shanks >> WB, BM and Kaido

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## RossellaFiamingo (Jul 20, 2021)

And Dadan is stronger than Prime Garp since she beat the absolute shit out of him with her country level punches.

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## Strobacaxi (Jul 20, 2021)

Jake CENA said:


> While Crocus > Garp


Oi it's all fun and games when we're shitting on Pirates but don't even think about fucking with The Fist

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## Jake CENA (Jul 20, 2021)

Crocus and Dadan were both top tiers during Roger's era

Garp had his ass kicked before by Dadan that is why he entrusted all the kids to her


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## Eustathios (Jul 20, 2021)

Rayleigh was certain that he could both fight Kizaru and assist the SHs in Sabaody if he were younger and he fought Kizaru to a standstill after 20+ years of inactivity. Kizaru is Yonko level.

Name one character that could afford to take their eyes off of an Admiral and accomplish what Rayleigh implied he would in his prime. Even WB needed to devote 100% of his attention to the Admirals. He and his commanders got punished for the slightest opening.

That should tell you enough about how strong Rayleigh was. I have him on the same level as pre-MF old WB, possibly a bit stronger. He would be the WSM in the current era.

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## Strobacaxi (Jul 20, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Rayleigh was certain that he could both fight Kizaru and assist the SHs in Sabaody if he were younger and he fought Kizaru to a standstill after 20+ years of inactivity.


And Luffy was certain he could beat Aokiji, your point is?

And when did Kizaru fight a Yonko to be placed as Yonko level exactly?

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## Eustathios (Jul 20, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> And Luffy was certain he could beat Aokiji, your point is?


Luffy was a rookie who had no idea how strong Aokiji was. Rayleigh is a veteran pirate who has seen it all. 


Strobacaxi said:


> And when did Kizaru fight a Yonko to be placed as Yonko level exactly?


The Admirals are on par with the Yonko.


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## Mihawk (Jul 20, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Rayleigh was certain that he could both fight Kizaru and assist the SHs in Sabaody if he were younger and he fought Kizaru to a standstill after 20+ years of inactivity. Kizaru is Yonko level.
> 
> Name one character that could afford to take their eyes off of an Admiral and accomplish what Rayleigh implied he would in his prime. Even WB needed to devote 100% of his attention to the Admirals. He and his commanders got punished for the slightest opening.
> 
> That should tell you enough about how strong Rayleigh was. I have him on the same level as pre-MF old WB, possibly a bit stronger. *He would be the WSM in the current era.*


I agree with almost everything except for the bolded.

As we've discussed before, I think the current competition is strong enough that Prime Ray (who was Roger's no.1) wouldn't be the WSM. He'd be up there for sure, on a short list of contenders. But with Kaido, Shanks, Mihawk, and Akainu around; I don't know.

I just think that any of the names above would be comparable or even a bit stronger than Roger's right hand. But it's tricky; most portrayal places Prime Ray right between the Yonko and the PK, or between the Admirals and the Yonko. Any feats regarding the difference between Ray and Roger would be most telling.

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## Strobacaxi (Jul 20, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Luffy was a rookie who had no idea how strong Aokiji was. Rayleigh is a veteran pirate who has seen it all.


Yes and based on what we know, prime Ray was below admirals. Roger's marine rivals were Garp, a pseudo admiral, and Sengoku, an admiral. Thinking Prime Ray is above admirals when his captain's rivals were admirals is dumb

Ray saying he could doesn't mean he can. Kaido is 100% certain he can beat Luffy, and he's also a veteran pirate



Eustathios said:


> The Admirals are on par with the Yonko.


Shown by the strongest admiral not being able to take down a disease ridden, weakened without haki old version of a Yonko? Sure thing

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## Eustathios (Jul 20, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> I agree with almost everything except for the bolded.
> 
> As we've discussed before, I think the current competition is strong enough that Prime Ray (who was Roger's no.1) wouldn't be the WSM. He'd be up there for sure, on a short list of contenders. But with Kaido, Shanks, Mihawk, and Akainu around; I don't know.
> 
> I just think that any of the names above would be comparable or even a bit stronger than Roger's right hand. But it's tricky; most portrayal places Prime Ray right between the Yonko and the PK, or between the Admirals and the Yonko. Any feats regarding the difference between Ray and Roger would be most telling.


That's fair. I rate the Admirals very highly. Kizaru has a decent shot at beating any one of those names in the list, hence why Rayleigh matching him in a weakened state is so impressive.


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## Eustathios (Jul 20, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Yes and based on what we know, prime Ray was below admirals. Roger's marine rivals were Garp, a pseudo admiral, and Sengoku, an admiral. Thinking Prime Ray is above admirals when his captain's rivals were admirals is dumb


Garp was on par with Roger. Sengoku was deemed a decent enemy. His portrayal is not above Rayleigh's who was Roger's right hand man and always very close to his captain. 


Strobacaxi said:


> Shown by the strongest admiral not being able to take down a disease ridden, weakened without haki old version of a Yonko? Sure thing


The strongest Admiral was the main reason the strongest Yonko fell in Marineford.

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## Mihawk (Jul 20, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> That's fair. I rate the Admirals very highly. Kizaru has a decent shot at beating any one of those names in the list, hence why Rayleigh matching him in a weakened state is so impressive.


Kizaru is definitely stronger than most here think he is...the thread a few weeks back comparing him to Aokiji kinda opened my eyes to how great his feats/parallels are. 

Still, I see Kizaru as the RHM to a beefed up Akainu, sort of like an FM on steroids...Prime Ray seems to be implied to high-diff him, and I hold him in a similar regard to a couple of the modern top tiers.

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## Strobacaxi (Jul 20, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Garp was on par with Roger. Sengoku was deemed a decent enemy. His portrayal is not above Rayleigh's who was Roger's right hand man and always very close to his captain.


lol
I have no words. Where was Sengoku EVER portrayed by Roger or WB to be inferior to Garp? Both of them mentioned Garp and Sengoku in the same light. So when was Sengoku only deemed a decent enemy?
When was Rayleigh portrayed as close to his captain? Because he was called "partner" he's near Roger level? lol



Eustathios said:


> The strongest Admiral was the main reason the strongest Yonko fell in Marineford.


Actually that would be the heart attacks.
Oh and WB had a heart attack from using basic CoC, didn't use CoO the entire war, and the only moment he was implied to use CoA was when he attacked Aokiji. He got damaged by fodder Squardo. Not much of a performance by the "Strongest Yonko" lol

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## Eustathios (Jul 20, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> lol
> I have no words. Where was Sengoku EVER portrayed by Roger or WB to be inferior to Garp? Both of them mentioned Garp and Sengoku in the same light. So when was Sengoku only deemed a decent enemy?


Because he was never stated to have nearly killed Roger multiple times like Garp. 


Strobacaxi said:


> When was Rayleigh portrayed as close to his captain? Because he was called "partner" he's near Roger level? lol


Yes. Known as the Dark King and a legend on par with WB despite being inactive for two decades. You don't have to think too much. Look at Zoro and Luffy and you have Rayleigh and Roger. 


Strobacaxi said:


> Actually that would be the heart attacks.
> Oh and WB had a heart attack from using basic CoC, didn't use CoO the entire war, and the only moment he was implied to use CoA was when he attacked Aokiji. He got damaged by fodder Squardo. Not much of a performance by the "Strongest Yonko" lol


All of that is irrelevant when the author states that he is the strongest.


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## Dellinger (Jul 20, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Garp was on par with Roger. Sengoku was deemed a decent enemy. His portrayal is not above Rayleigh's who was Roger's right hand man and always very close to his captain.
> 
> The strongest Admiral was the main reason the strongest Yonko fell in Marineford.


The strongest Admiral was the main reason when:

WB was sick as hell
Squardo so stabbed him
Multiple marines stabbed him
His illness didn’t allow him to use Haki
His illness allowed Akainu to open a massive hole on his chest
Fought Aokiji and Kizaru

yet the strongest admiral is the reason the strongest Yonko (not at all) lost

stop - SNIP - the Admirals

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## Eustathios (Jul 20, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> The strongest Admiral was the main reason when:
> 
> WB was sick as hell
> Squardo so stabbed him
> ...


That's a lot of fancy words. Let's check the manga instead.


*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __

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## Dellinger (Jul 20, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> That's a lot of fancy words. Let's check the manga instead.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Nice way to ignore what I said

Why don’t you post the page where Akainu is down some hole beaten ? Did you forget about that also ?


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## Eustathios (Jul 20, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> Nice way to ignore what I said


Nah, the manga refutes what you said. How do you explain Sengoku, BM, Buggy and the narrator still calling WB the strongest?


Dellinger said:


> Why don’t you post the page where Akainu is down some hole beaten ? Did you forget about that also ?


Akainu came back and fought without a problem. WB was on death's door.

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## Dellinger (Jul 20, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Nah, the manga refutes what you said. How do you explain Sengoku, BM, Buggy and the narrator still calling WB the strongest?
> 
> Akainu came back and fought without a problem. WB was on death's door.


We have WB literally calling himself not the strongest and Marco repeated multiple times that he had declined.

why are you ignoring that WB went through multiple attacks and enemies ? You are trying to push your agenda where Akainu beat WB on his own when WB got injured by multiple enemies and because his sickness got the best of him

what you don’t have the balls to actually post the truth ?


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## Kamisori (Jul 20, 2021)

Imagine living in 2021 and still thinking Yonko and Admirals are not in the same tier.

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## Chronophage (Jul 20, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> We have WB literally calling himself not the strongest and Marco repeated multiple times that he had declined.
> 
> why are you ignoring that WB went through multiple attacks and enemies ? You are trying to push your agenda where Akainu beat WB on his own when WB got injured by multiple enemies and because his sickness got the best of him
> 
> what you don’t have the balls to actually post the truth ?


Why are you ignoring that Whitebeard sneaked up on Akainu? It was an exchange of 3 blows. Akainu was fine afterwards took on several opponents, while Whitebeard was a dead man walking.

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## Eustathios (Jul 20, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> We have WB literally calling himself not the strongest


I would like a panel of that.


Dellinger said:


> and Marco repeated multiple times that *he had declined.*


No one disputed that?


Dellinger said:


> why are you ignoring that WB went through multiple attacks and enemies ? You are trying to push your agenda where Akainu beat WB on his own when WB got injured by multiple enemies and because his sickness got the best of him


No, WB started out weakened but he was also stronger than the other Yonko so it evens out. 


Dellinger said:


> what you don’t have the balls to actually post the truth ?


It's an anime forum bruh, chill

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## Ayy lmao (Jul 20, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> We have WB literally calling himself not the strongest and Marco repeated multiple times that he had declined.


WB said he cant be the strongest forever, not that he isn't currently the strongest, and Marco just said his health had declined IRRC.


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## Dellinger (Jul 20, 2021)

Kurozumi said:


> Why are you ignoring that Whitebeard sneaked up on Akainu? It was an exchange of 3 blows. Akainu was fine afterwards took on several opponents, while Whitebeard was a dead man walking.


Same way Akainu attacked a WB that couldnt defend himself huh ? WB nearly beat Teach, even as a dead man, Akainu needed to go through a tunnel to rest.


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## Dellinger (Jul 20, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> I would like a panel of that.


WB literally says he can’t be the strongest.


Eustathios said:


> No one disputed that?


You certainly do dispute thst


Eustathios said:


> No, WB started out weakened but he was also stronger than the other Yonko so it evens out.


He wasn’t stronger than the other Yonko unless you think WB can beat them without even using Haki when Kaido is far tougher than him also


Eustathios said:


> It's an anime forum bruh, chill


I’m not chilling, you’re basically shit posting here while ignoring numerous things

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## Eustathios (Jul 20, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> WB literally says he can’t be the strongest.


Where does he say so? I'm waiting.


Dellinger said:


> You certainly do dispute thst
> 
> He wasn’t stronger than the other Yonko unless you think WB can beat them without even using Haki when Kaido is far tougher than him also


Can you disprove the panels I posted?


Dellinger said:


> I’m not chilling, you’re basically shit posting here while ignoring numerous things


I brought up numerous manga panels. Still no refutation.


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## Dellinger (Jul 20, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Where does he say so? I'm waiting.


he says he cant be the strongest forever. You know exactly where  he says it.


Eustathios said:


> Can you disprove the panels I posted?


Are you really implying that he can beat Kaido without haki ? If so why didnt he clash with after Odens death ?If it is so easy according to you ?


Eustathios said:


> I brought up numerous manga panels. Still no refutation.


Yes manga panels of what ? when others bring manga panels of the yonko being stronger than the admirals its like talking to a wall with you


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## Eustathios (Jul 20, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> he says he cant be the strongest forever. You know exactly where  he says it.


I know. Now, where does he say he isn't the strongest anymore? I don't remember seeing that. What I do remember is Sengoku hammering it down even more that he was the WSM seconds after the aforementioned statement.


Dellinger said:


> Are you really implying that he can beat Kaido without haki ? If so why didnt he clash with after Odens death ?If it is so easy according to you ?


This is a nice way of dodging all those panels but I'll bite. Whitebeard not having Haki is fanfic. He connected with Logia Admirals. He didn't clash with Kaido because of possible casualties as he said.

Now can we get back to the topic? Why do Sengoku, Buggy, BM, Garp, Shanks and the narrator still acknowledge WB as the strongest?


Dellinger said:


> Yes manga panels of what ?


See above.


Dellinger said:


> when others bring manga panels of the yonko being stronger than the admirals its like talking to a wall with you


I'd love to see these panels. I do remember some others. It was Don Chinjao mentioning the Yonko and Admirals in the same breath.

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## Grinningfox (Jul 20, 2021)

No but he could’ve been


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## Captain Altintop (Jul 20, 2021)

He is Yonko level but not above every Yonko ...  He might beat BM or stalemate her tho . He definitely loses to Kaido and Shanks and Prime BM extreme-ish diff.

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## Dunno (Jul 20, 2021)

Of course. Old Ray is at their level, so in his prime he was clearly superior to them.

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## Pirao (Jul 21, 2021)

Of course. Retirement home, not having fought in 20 years Rayleigh was matching Kizaru, I shudder to imagine what he could do in his prime

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## The crazy hacker (Jul 21, 2021)

Ofcourse Rayleigh is above the Yonkou. Rayleigh is pretty close to Roger considering their Luffy/Zoro dynamic and even weakened old WB at MF is above Kaido.

Unless there are wankers who believe Kaido>Old WB.

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## Pirao (Jul 21, 2021)

The crazy hacker said:


> Unless there are wankers who believe Kaido>Old WB.


There are wankers who believe Kaido>Primebeard and Roger, that's the OL for you

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## Mihawk (Jul 21, 2021)

The crazy hacker said:


> Unless there are wankers who believe Kaido>Old WB.


It's part of the Yankers agenda...they somehow think that Hakiman Shanks was not a "man" when WB was alive, and that Big Mom is a woman who had 2 primes and was somehow the true WSM all along.

Since sick Old Beard beat an Admiral, they think Kaido would stomp em'..on top of that btw, since no one in MF used Ryou, the Scabbards have better feats

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## Pirao (Jul 21, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> It's part of the Yankers agenda...they somehow think that Hakiman Shanks was not a "man" when WB was alive, and that Big Mom is a woman who had 2 primes and was somehow the true WSM all along.
> 
> Since sick Old Beard beat an Admiral, they think Kaido would stomp em'..on top of that btw, since no one in MF used Ryou, the Scabbards have better feats


Are you saying that Kinnemon isn't > Akainu? Blasphemy

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 6


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## Mihawk (Jul 21, 2021)

Pirao said:


> Are you saying that Kinnemon isn't > Akainu? Blasphemy


No, I'm saying Kaido's title is actually legit; while Whitebeard's title is property of fraud and an old-washed up has been bum of a legend who was too pussy in his prime to face Kaido.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Eustathios (Jul 21, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> No, I'm saying Kaido's title is actually legit; while Whitebeard's title is property of fraud and an old-washed up has been bum of a legend who was too pussy in his prime to face Kaido.


Remember, the OP world is in consensus that Kaido beats everyone so it means his title is legit. Even though they are woefully ignorant due to WG propaganda.

Sengoku and Garp calling WB the strongest were frauds even though they have CP info and WG files access

Reactions: Like 1


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## demonkiller123 (Jul 21, 2021)

This is the stuff I love. Prime Rayleigh is a beast that no one knows how strong he was.

An old and retired Rayleigh stalemated a Admiral that this forum loves to wank.

We know Prime Rayleigh is stronger than Gabban who stalemated Oden, so Rayleigh>Oden.

The real question is could Rayleigh take on Prime Whitebeard? Probably not but it’s hard to say.

Prime Rayleigh is a high tier Yonko who probably is comprable to Shanks. I’m sure we’ll see more from them in end game flashbacks.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grinningfox (Jul 21, 2021)

The fact that filler is being used to wank Rayleigh is nuts


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## Mihawk (Jul 21, 2021)

demonkiller123 said:


> The real question is could Rayleigh take on Prime Whitebeard? Probably not but it’s hard to say.


He could probably compete with him but Primebeard is taking that W no matter what. 


demonkiller123 said:


> Prime Rayleigh is a high tier Yonko who probably is comprable to Shanks. I’m sure we’ll see more from them in end game flashbacks.


This is what we're all counting on.

Reactions: Like 1


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## demonkiller123 (Jul 21, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> The fact that filler is being used to wank Rayleigh is nuts


Cannon Filler > your feelings


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## Grinningfox (Jul 21, 2021)

demonkiller123 said:


> Cannon Filler > your feelings


Filler is filler 

That fact >>> your silly delusion


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## demonkiller123 (Jul 21, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> Filler is filler
> 
> That fact >>> your silly delusion



You are a salty Oden fanboy, and your profile picture proves it > Anime and manga facts

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Grinningfox (Jul 21, 2021)

demonkiller123 said:


> You are a salty Oden fanboy, and your profile picture proves it > Anime and manga facts


I have yet to say one wankish thing about Oden 

You ( and several others ) on the other hand Ben over backwards to wank Ray at every turn you get .

I LIKE Ray but I refuse to flat out ignore What Oden or Shanks have done or manufacture more hype for him .

Ray being > Oden is totally fine but it’s a bold faced lie to claim the manga has done anything to definitively place Rayleigh above Oden.

You guys have to stop this


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## demonkiller123 (Jul 21, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> I have yet to say one wankish thing about Oden
> 
> You ( and several others ) on the other hand Ben over backwards to wank Ray at every turn you get .
> 
> ...


Do you read/watch one piece?

Any fan can tell you why there is so much hype for Rayleigh and why a Prime version of him gets any one piece fan excited. I shouldn’t have to explain it to you.

Even if you decide to ignore the anime as cannon, which is really idiotic since the anime elaborates and extend scenes that the manga couldn’t focus on.

Rayleigh even said him and gaban were going to put Oden in his place in the manga before Roger took over.

Also on the oden comment, you directly referenced my comment, and said “The fact that filler is being used to wank Rayleigh is nuts”

So yeah don’t play innocent just because Oden got stalemated.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 21, 2021)

demonkiller123 said:


> We know Prime Rayleigh is stronger than Gabban who stalemated Oden, so Rayleigh>Oden


Not canon


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## demonkiller123 (Jul 21, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Not canon


Canon > your feelings


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 21, 2021)

demonkiller123 said:


> Canon > your feelings


I agree, that’s not canon tho


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## trance (Jul 21, 2021)

i know usebros want the oden v. gaban scene to be canon but its not

just :letgo

wow they got rid of letgo

how rude


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## Sherlōck (Jul 21, 2021)

This doesn’t prove shit.

Though I think, Laido>= Shanks ~ Prime Rayleigh >= Blackbeard >= Big Meme

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## demonkiller123 (Jul 21, 2021)

Seems like everyone is mad that Gaban=Oden. Anime rains supreme once again.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 22, 2021)

demonkiller123 said:


> Seems like everyone is mad that Gaban=Oden. Anime rains supreme once again.


I don’t care if it was true or not. In fact I would actually like it, I like concrete tier placements.

The evidence for it isn’t canon though


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## Seraphoenix (Jul 22, 2021)

Prime Rayleigh isn't beating any Yonkou. Roger coming out of Godvalley was a a Great Pirate just like the other Yonkou and WB later on. He also doesn't feature in Kaido's tier list of people who can compete with him or is even on Mihawk's radar as a potential competitor. 

The idea that he is above Yonkou level is ridiculous, even in his prime.  Dude in old age couldn't even get past a YC1 level admiral.  Does he even have advanced CotC?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 8


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## Quipchaque (Jul 22, 2021)

No. It means that the pirate King is even greater.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 22, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> Does he even have advanced CotC?





Rayleigh is one of the few haki gods portrayal-wise...


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## Perrin (Jul 22, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Rayleigh is one of the few haki gods portrayal-wise...


He was, but his feats in CoC have been surpassed on panel by some now so the title is in jeopardy.


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## Eustathios (Jul 22, 2021)

demonkiller123 said:


> Seems like everyone is mad that Gaban=Oden. Anime rains supreme once again.


Anime is not canon, what's the point?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perrin (Jul 22, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Anime is not canon, what's the point?


Colors for a colorful debate?


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## Quipchaque (Jul 22, 2021)

Perrin said:


> He was, but his feats in CoC have been surpassed on panel by some now so the title is in jeopardy.



Nah that is nonsense. Just because a character is featless post-timeskip doesn't mean his portrayal is void.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Perrin (Jul 22, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Nah that is nonsense. Just because a character is featless post-timeskip doesn't mean his portrayal is void.


True, i expect much of haki is made up on the fly rather than carefully planned out so yeah, not being shown before a new revelation should not be a barrier to someone having it who has not shown as such.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 22, 2021)

demonkiller123 said:


> This is the stuff I love. Prime Rayleigh is a beast that no one knows how strong he was.
> 
> An old and retired Rayleigh stalemated a Admiral that this forum loves to wank.
> 
> ...



Are you suggesting Prime Ray who should be compareable to Shanks cannot take on Prime WB? Where do you get that from?

Ofc they can take him on, but they're not beating him. Ray has the hype of standing on the same stage as WB by Garp's own words, Chinjao has a shitload of respect of Rayleigh and the pirate king calls him his partner. Prime Ray has more hype than Shanks, but they both should be able to give a Prime WB a great fight before losing. It's going to be high diff and not lower than that.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Quipchaque (Jul 22, 2021)

Perrin said:


> True, i expect much of haki is made up on the fly rather than carefully planned out so yeah, not being shown before a new revelation should not be a barrier to someone having it who has not shown as such.



I mean it makes no sense to assume everyone has it. After all it is quite rare but we already know he has it and he was portrayed as very knowledgable and skilled so for me it is the most obvious thing that Rayleigh can use it in advanced form.


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## Perrin (Jul 22, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> I mean it makes no sense to assume everyone has it. After all it is quite rare but we already know he has it and he was portrayed as very knowledgable and skilled so for me it is the most obvious thing that Rayleigh can use it in advanced form.


Be nice if Boa has it too as she basically rules over Haki island


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## Strobacaxi (Jul 22, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Yes. Known as the Dark King and a legend on par with WB despite being inactive for two decades. You don't have to think too much. Look at Zoro and Luffy and you have Rayleigh and Roger.


Rayleigh was known as a legend, not a legend on par with WB. Kidd will also be a legend, so will Law, Zoro, Sanji, Jimbei.


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## Van Basten (Jul 22, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> Prime Rayleigh isn't beating any Yonkou. Roger coming out of Godvalley was a a Great Pirate just like the other Yonkou and WB later on. He also doesn't feature in Kaido's tier list of people who can compete with him or is even on Mihawk's radar as a potential competitor.
> 
> The idea that he is above Yonkou level is ridiculous, even in his prime.  Dude in old age couldn't even get past a YC1 level admiral.  Does he even have advanced CotC?


Wow….

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Eustathios (Jul 22, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Rayleigh was known as a legend, not a legend on par with WB. Kidd will also be a legend, so will Law, Zoro, Sanji, Jimbei.


Garp mentions Rayleigh in the same breath as WB


*Spoiler*: __ 









Add to that his hype as the Dark King and he's easily up there with Roger, WB, Garp and Sengoku in terms of reputation.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jul 22, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Garp mentions Rayleigh in the same breath as WB
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


No he doesn't. He says two legends. Every great pirate from the past is a legend.

He's absolutely not up there with those guys in reputation


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## Eustathios (Jul 22, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> No he doesn't. He says two legends. Every great pirate from the past is a legend.


Can you prove that? Who are the other pirates placed on the same pedestal as WB?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 22, 2021)

Van Basten said:


> Wow….



He also claimed Sabo would have a 9.6 billion bounty. 

OT: imo it’s a tossup between Shanks, Kaido, and current Blackbeard (depending on how strong Blackbeard has gotten). I’d give Rayleigh the edge over Blackbeard at the start of the timeskip. He definitely beats the Queen of Meme.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Fel1x (Jul 22, 2021)

replying in the troll thread:
Ray=Beckman. stronger than average FM level, weaker than Yonko level, equal to admiral level

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Seraphoenix (Jul 22, 2021)

Quipchaque said:


> Rayleigh is one of the few haki gods portrayal-wise...


Haki god where? As far we know he only has advanced CoA. He didn't seem to have future sight and has no hints of advanced CotC.  

Show me the portrayal chief. 


Van Basten said:


> Wow….


Yes, wow. I expected an actual response but given it's you I'm not surprised. 

Rayleigh is not Great Pirate level like Roger, Shanks, Kaido, WB etc.  Cope.


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## Seraphoenix (Jul 22, 2021)

Fel1x said:


> replying in the troll thread:
> Ray=Beckman. stronger than average FM level, weaker than Yonko level, equal to admiral level


Yonko>Prime Rayleigh> average admiral= Old Ray tbh

Reactions: Lewd 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Captain Altintop (Jul 22, 2021)

Current Yonko and Admirals are all more or less  worth being the PK's Right Hand Man.

Something like Roger > Rayleigh >> MF WB / Yonko / Admirals is pure shit.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Dunno (Jul 22, 2021)

Captain Altintop said:


> Current Yonko and Admirals are all more or less  worth being the PK's Right Hand Man.
> 
> Something like Roger > Rayleigh >> MF WB / Yonko / Admirals is pure shit.


Why did you remove Prime Momo from your tier list?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## demonkiller123 (Jul 22, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Are you suggesting Prime Ray who should be compareable to Shanks cannot take on Prime WB? Where do you get that from?
> 
> Ofc they can take him on, but they're not beating him. Ray has the hype of standing on the same stage as WB by Garp's own words, Chinjao has a shitload of respect of Rayleigh and the pirate king calls him his partner. Prime Ray has more hype than Shanks, but they both should be able to give a Prime WB a great fight before losing. It's going to be high diff and not lower than that.


I don’t know where you saw that I said Prime Ray couldn’t take on Prime Whitebeard.

I said probably not, but it’s hard to say. Roger and Whitebeard were similar in strength, at least towards the end of Rogers life. We need to know where Prime Ray compares to Roger. I think Rayleigh can definitely fight Whitebeard for a while but Whitebeard reigns supreme against all the Yonko. Shanks has a chance to take that title but we need to see some feats from him.


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## Mihawk (Jul 22, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Are you suggesting Prime Ray who should be compareable to Shanks cannot take on Prime WB? Where do you get that from?
> 
> Ofc they can take him on, but they're not beating him. Ray has the hype of standing on the same stage as WB by Garp's own words, Chinjao has a shitload of respect of Rayleigh and the pirate king calls him his partner. Prime Ray has more hype than Shanks, but they both should be able to give a Prime WB a great fight before losing. It's going to be high diff and not lower than that.





Eustathios said:


> Garp mentions Rayleigh in the same breath as WB
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Pretty much. Prime Ray is Yonko level; likely no more no less.

Not sure why that's so hard to grasp.

The Yonko are runner ups to Pirate King and were secondary to Roger/WB. Rayleigh was also secondary to them, but acknowledged as a partner and held in similar regard.

He was a master to one of the Emperors, and even in his old age his basic Haki was said to be on the same level as his.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Captain Altintop (Jul 22, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Why did you remove Prime Momo from your tier list?


Because I rather focus on main chars or such as Law, Kidd, Strawhats etc.

Otherwise I can start adding like 40+ more people into that list ... but yeah I think he will be around Kaido level.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Jul 22, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> chapter 863, Viz
> 
> he says mere Emperor. At minimum this means Prime Rayleigh > her. At maximum it means a lot more.
> 
> this is the clearest evidence we have.


No. He was probably Emperor level though IMO.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Neutral 1


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## TheNirou (Jul 22, 2021)

Captain Altintop said:


> Current Yonko and Admirals are all more or less  worth being the PK's Right Hand Man.
> 
> Something like Roger > Rayleigh >> MF WB / Yonko / Admirals is pure shit.


I still put Rayleigh slightly above current Yonko and Admirals but the gap is small honestly.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 22, 2021)

Too much headcanon in this thread


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## Eustathios (Jul 22, 2021)

Rayleigh ~ Old WB

Yonko/Admiral level, but he would be the strongest of them.


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## Vivo Diez (Jul 22, 2021)

Rayleigh is yonko tier or above but not for the reason you're quoting. If you simply scale him off Roger and the fact that he could stand up to an admiral while retired and old af, clearly in his prime he would at minimum be yonko tier..


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## Shunsuiju (Jul 22, 2021)

Rayleigh fought an Admiral in old age after having not touched his weapon in ages.

That's the clearest sign he's above them.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Vivo Diez (Jul 22, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Rayleigh fought an Admiral in old age after having not touched his weapon in ages.
> 
> That's the clearest sign he's above them.


Wow we actually agree on something, must be the end of times


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## Shunsuiju (Jul 22, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Wow we actually agree on something, must be the end of times


Ouch.

I'm not sure on the dynamic between Mihawk, Rayleigh and Zoro though. I feel like Mihawk should be super damn close to Rayleigh if he's going to be Zoro's final hurdle. And I'm not a believer in "old age makes you horrendously weak" in this series, so a fight between Kizaru and Rayleigh in both of their primes would still be close in my opinion.

For me though, Garp and Rayleigh are the strongest after Roger/Whitebeard and that's not even a question. Shiki and Sengoku would be closer to your average Yonko or Admiral.


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## ShadoLord (Jul 22, 2021)

Oh right, ya’ll better remember that Old Rayleigh’s CotC was compared to Shanks in that both could possibly knocked out all 100,000 fishmen back during the FI arc in an SBS. CotC is relative to the user’s strength so

Prime Ray > Current Strongest Yonk Shanks
Old Ray </= Current Strongest Yonk Shanks

Reactions: Like 1


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## AmitDS (Jul 22, 2021)

All these people twisting Garp mentioning Rayleigh with WB as 2 legends while they conveniently ignore that BM, Kaido and Shanks were also mentioned with WB and were actually called pirates on his level and all 4, the strongest pirates in the world. 


*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Eustathios (Jul 22, 2021)

AmitDS said:


> All these people twisting Garp mentioning Rayleigh with WB as 2 legends while they conveniently ignore that BM, Kaido and Shanks were also mentioned with WB and were actually called pirates on his level and all 4, the strongest pirates in the world.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


The context is different. He's talking about the Yonko here. Of course he'd mention them alongside WB. He was the one that dominated the seas. If anything it's good hype for Rayleigh too. Only the strongest pirates were mentioned in the same sentence as WB.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Fel1x (Jul 22, 2021)

AmitDS said:


> All these people twisting Garp mentioning Rayleigh with WB as 2 legends while they conveniently ignore that BM, Kaido and Shanks were also mentioned with WB and were actually called pirates on his level and all 4, the strongest pirates in the world.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


whatever. people will still dickride old legends for no feats at all. even some good posters becoming dull when talking about Roger, WB or Ray.

I haven't seen any good arguments about why Prime WB or Roger > current Yonko. or why Ray is even yonko level

hyping Ray over current Yonko is so childish and naive

people post shit out of nostalgia feelings and some headcanon that is based on nothing

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jul 22, 2021)

Fel1x said:


> whatever. people will still dickride old legends for *no feats at all.* even some good posters becoming dull when talking about Roger, WB or Ray.
> 
> *I haven't seen any good arguments about why Prime WB or Roger > current Yonko. or why Ray is even yonko level*
> 
> ...


You act like people are holding on to the past, but if anything, we have more reason now than ever to put Whitebeard and Roger above the pirates of today. Big Mom mentions Whitebeard as if he's above the other Yonko. Doflamingo says Whitebeard was the king of the seas. Jimbei belittles the title of Emperor when compared to the Pirate King. These are all quotes from hundreds of chapters after Marineford. I think you're holding onto the idea that the Emperors would have been just like Whitebeard, when we knew from the beginning that there was separation there.

Rayleigh fighting an Admiral in old age and wanting more is literally a feat that's far more than Shanks has ever done.


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## Fel1x (Jul 22, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> You act like people are holding on to the past, but if anything, we have more reason now than ever to put Whitebeard and Roger above the pirates of today. Big Mom mentions Whitebeard as if he's above the other Yonko. Doflamingo says Whitebeard was the king of the seas. Jimbei belittles the title of Emperor when compared to the Pirate King. These are all quotes from hundreds of chapters after Marineford. I think you're holding onto the idea that the Emperors would have been just like Whitebeard, when we knew from the beginning that there was separation there.
> 
> Rayleigh fighting an Admiral in old age and wanting more is literally a feat that's far more than Shanks has ever done.



quotes, quotes, quotes. why should I care for personal opinion of characters. also there are many interpretations of what they meant



Shunsuiju said:


> Rayleigh fighting an Admiral in old age and wanting more is literally a feat that's far more than Shanks has ever done


lol what? how is it > Shanks?

fighting an admiral? few clashes=fighting now? clashes mean nothing in one piece. DR Zoro clashed with Fujitora. so DR Zoro was = or > Fujitora? or what?
This old Ray would lose mid-high diff against Kizaru
only Prime Ray was highest end of admiral level, not more than that. nothing states that Ray was Yonko level. Ray hasn't ever fought Yonko or any old legend, he doesn't have any feats like that. 

just relax and accept the truth. Roger was as strong as current Yonko, Ray was as strong as current Beckman

Golden age>Roger's age
New era will be > Golden age

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3


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## trance (Jul 22, 2021)

Fel1x said:


> Roger was stronger than any Yonko



ftfy


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 22, 2021)

Zoro said:


> Oh right, ya’ll better remember that Old Rayleigh’s CotC was compared to Shanks in that both could possibly knocked out all 100,000 fishmen back during the FI arc in an SBS. CotC is relative to the user’s strength so
> 
> Prime Ray > Current Strongest Yonk Shanks
> Old Ray </= Current Strongest Yonk Shanks


Especially since power is directly referenced in that sbs answer


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## AmitDS (Jul 22, 2021)

Zoro said:


> Oh right, ya’ll better remember that Old Rayleigh’s CotC was compared to Shanks in that both could possibly knocked out all 100,000 fishmen back during the FI arc in an SBS. CotC is relative to the user’s strength so
> 
> Prime Ray > Current Strongest Yonk Shanks
> Old Ray </= Current Strongest Yonk Shanks





xmysticgohanx said:


> Especially since power is directly referenced in that sbs answer



*SBS Volume 65:

D: Luffy's haoshoku haki was able to affect 50,000 men, but how many would Shanks and the others be able to defeat? P.N. Captain Nobuo*

_*O: In exactly the same place and exact same situation as Luffy, Shanks or Rayleigh may have been capable of knocking out all 100,000.* In a different setting, you can't really compare just by asking "how many people". Being able to knock an enemy out with haki depends entirely on having an overwhelming power gap between the two. In Luffy's case the point is the number of people that were so weak that they were not even worth him fighting. If there were 100,000 to-some-extent-strong-willed pirates before him, it's possible that he wouldn't even be able to knock out a single one. On a related note, as one's proficiency with haoshoku advances, it's even possible to target a few people in a crowd to NOT knock out._

*There were only 100,000 enemies in total there so saying both Shanks and Rayleigh could knock out all (2x) Luffy's count, doesn't mean that Rayleigh = Shanks. It just means they mastered their CoC enough to knock out at least 100,000 men. *

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## ShadoLord (Jul 22, 2021)

AmitDS said:


> *SBS Volume 65:
> 
> D: Luffy's haoshoku haki was able to affect 50,000 men, but how many would Shanks and the others be able to defeat? P.N. Captain Nobuo*
> 
> ...


Not when Oda included Rayleigh despite the question asking specifically for Shanks' response to the scenario. It's obvious in Oda's mind that Shanks and Old Rayleigh are on the same level.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Fel1x (Jul 22, 2021)

Zoro said:


> Not when Oda included Rayleigh despite the question asking specifically for Shanks' response to the scenario. It's obvious in Oda's mind that Shanks and Old Rayleigh are on the same level.


Oda included Ray because he has CoC knockout feat. that's all
only Shanks, Ray, Luffy and Katakuri have such a feat in manga as far as i remember. not because only they can or they are best at it (well, Shanks probably idd is the best), its just because Oda showed only them

you are trying to make a silly argument out of this SBS.


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## ShadoLord (Jul 22, 2021)

Fel1x said:


> Oda included Ray because he has CoC knockout feat. that's all
> only Shanks, Ray, Luffy and Katakuri have such a feat in manga as far as i remember. not because only they can or they are best at it (well, Shanks probably idd is the best), its just because Oda showed only them
> 
> you are trying to make a silly argument out of this SBS.


yeah no, and your comeback is equally pathetic.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 23, 2021)

AmitDS said:


> *SBS Volume 65:
> 
> D: Luffy's haoshoku haki was able to affect 50,000 men, but how many would Shanks and the others be able to defeat? P.N. Captain Nobuo*
> 
> ...


“May have been capable”

That’s a very big and relevant difference in this discussion


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## Seraphoenix (Jul 23, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Rayleigh fighting an Admiral in old age and wanting more is literally a feat that's far more than Shanks has ever done.


Shanks ending the war with an admiral too scared to even attempt to duke it out>
Shanks having legendary duels with the WSS (Who doesn't consider Rayleigh on his radar)>
Shanks clashing evenly with WB in WSM condition, splitting the heavens(Which only Great Pirates have been shown to do)>

Hell Marco performed better than Rayleigh as he actually overpowered Kizaru. That same Marco wasn't invited by Shanks to be co-captain or even first mate on his ship. Just an ordinary crew member.

This Rayleigh wank is old gen nostalgia. Roger coming out of fighting his fiercest rival was just a Great Pirate like Kaido, Shanks, WB are/were. The difference between old gen and new gen is more competition. More admirals. More Great Pirates.  Roger had it far easier than Luffy will have it.  Though ironically most people here want to put the old gen on a pedestal.

Reactions: GODA 1 | Optimistic 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jul 23, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> Shanks ending the war with an admiral too scared to even attempt to duke it out>
> Shanks having legendary duels with the WSS (Who doesn't consider Rayleigh on his radar)>
> Shanks clashing evenly with WB in WSM condition, splitting the heavens(Which only Great Pirates have been shown to do)>
> 
> ...


That’s because he gets put on a pedestal in the story.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 3 | Optimistic 1


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## Dunno (Jul 23, 2021)

AmitDS said:


> All these people twisting Garp mentioning Rayleigh with WB as 2 legends while they conveniently ignore that BM, Kaido and Shanks were also mentioned with WB and were actually called pirates on his level and all 4, the greatest pirates in the world.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


This is actually even more evidence that Old Ray is Yonkou level. Both Old Rayleigh and the Yonkou were compared to old WB. Prime Ray > Old Ray = Yonkou, as evidenced by that page you linked.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Mihawk (Jul 23, 2021)

Fel1x said:


> quotes, quotes, quotes. why should I care for personal opinion of characters. also there are many interpretations of what they meant


I love you Felix, but you know this argument can easily be made of Kaido's title/status too right?


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## AmitDS (Jul 23, 2021)

Zoro said:


> Not when Oda included Rayleigh despite the question asking specifically for Shanks' response to the scenario. It's obvious in Oda's mind that Shanks and Old Rayleigh are on the same level.


Or maybe because Rayleigh was Luffy's haki teacher, the only other with the feat and the discussion was about *"Shanks AND THE OTHERS"* knocking out people vs Luffy knocking out people so Oda talked about how the only other one with the feat at that point, would also be superior to Luffy who was still learning.

He would have mentioned Big Mom, Kaido and WB too if he wanted to list all the people with the same level of CoC haki mastery as Shanks.


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## AmitDS (Jul 23, 2021)

Dunno said:


> This is actually even more evidence that Old Ray is Yonkou level. Both Old Rayleigh and the Yonkou were compared to old WB. Prime Ray > Old Ray = Yonkou, as evidenced by that page you linked.


Rayleigh was beyond Kaido, Big Mom and Shiki in their prime but somehow this was never talked about or shown anywhere. Sure.

Roger was sailing around with someone above all of the other great pirates of the era but was still struggling with Whitebeard and even Shiki because reasons.

The lengths people are going to prove something like this is hilarious. Is this because of Rayleigh having passionate fans, him being seen as cooler, the need to give Zoro a parallel to make him look stronger, people thinking Kizaru =Emperor or because you guys underestimate the emperors bar WB?

If Rayleigh was =/> Big Mom, Shiki and current Kaido then it would have been shown or stated somewhere outside of people twisting what Rayleigh being an old legend means.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Captain Altintop (Jul 23, 2021)

I got the feeling that Kizaru would beat Old Rayleigh with high (highest) diff. only because of Stamina issues if they continued fighting. I didn't get the feeling that Old Ray could push him to extreme-ish diff. 

Prime Ray = Old Ray + More Stamina and little bit more speed maybe.  Otherwise there is not much difference between Old and Prime if no serious illness occured.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dunno (Jul 23, 2021)

AmitDS said:


> Rayleigh was beyond Kaido, Big Mom and Shiki in their prime but somehow this was never talked about or shown anywhere. Sure.
> 
> Roger was sailing around with someone above all of the other great pirates of the era but was still struggling with Whitebeard and even Shiki because reasons.
> 
> ...


Lengths? You provide a panel where Garp compared the Yonkou to old WB. You state that we ignore the fact that they get the same treatment Old Ray does, as in being compared to old WB. I point out that we don't, and I agree that the evidence you provide does indeed point towards Rayleigh and the Yonkou having the same standing. How would you say that is going lengths to do anything? You point out that the Yonkou and Ray share portrayal, and I agree.


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## AmitDS (Jul 23, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Lengths? You provide a panel where Garp compared the Yonkou to old WB. You state that we ignore the fact that they get the same treatment Old Ray does, as in being compared to old WB. I point out that we don't, and I agree that the evidence you provide does indeed point towards Rayleigh and the Yonkou having the same standing. How would you say that is going lengths to do anything? You point out that the Yonkou and Ray share portrayal, and I agree.


Saying Rayleigh and WB are two legends isn't the same as saying the emperors are on the same level as WB and are the 4 strongest pirates who rule over the New World.

You guys are conveniently conflating Rayleigh and the Emperors' portrayal without any actual proof that he was ever on the same level as an emperor in their prime.

Oda has never made it clear that Rayleigh was =/> Shiki and Big Mom back in the  day and just marginally below Roger.

If Prime Rayleigh was above Prime Shiki, Big Mom, Shanks and Kaido then where does that leave Oden and Scooper? Were they also =/> an emperor or do you think they were significantly weaker than Rayleigh? Did Roger have 3 emperors leveled subordinates while he was equal to WB himself? Because one can argue that they are portrayed to be close to Rayleigh unlike Roger, as Roger's strongest crewmates so...


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## Fel1x (Jul 23, 2021)

Zoro said:


> yeah no, and your comeback is equally pathetic.


pathetic is trying to make a huge argument out of SBS. and what is more pathetic - this SBS doesn’t have anything to do with your argument

but its ok for Zoro/admiral tard to post something like that. keep doing your typical job

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Fel1x (Jul 23, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> I love you Felix, but you know this argument can easily be made of Kaido's title/status too right?


but unlike Ray, Kaido has feats that proof his status and title

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 23, 2021)

AmitDS said:


> Rayleigh was beyond Kaido, Big Mom and Shiki in their prime but somehow this was never talked about or shown anywhere. Sure.
> 
> Roger was sailing around with someone above all of the other great pirates of the era but was still struggling with Whitebeard and even Shiki because reasons.
> 
> ...


Headcanon

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Seraphoenix (Jul 24, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> That’s because he gets put on a pedestal in the story.


What pedestal? Show me the quotes?

Kaido doesn't rate him as someone able to compete with him. This is someone who fought Yonko and marines. He was there at Godvalley to see Rayleigh.

Mihawk doesn't rate him as competition either.

So where is the pedestal?

None of you are ever going to get past the fact that Roger after beating his greatest rival was a Great Pirate just like the Yonko. Rayleigh isn't on that level.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Dellinger (Jul 24, 2021)

Delusional section as always, with certain agendas. Eustathios for example wants to push this narrative because it helps him wank the Admirals.

Saying that Ray is stronger than a guy who is the strongest creature and far more durable than him is stupid. Why wasn't Ray the strongest creature ?

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Eustathios (Jul 24, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> Delusional section as always, with certain agendas. Eustathios for example wants to push this narrative because it helps him wank the Admirals.
> 
> Saying that Ray is stronger than a guy who is the strongest creature and far more durable than him is stupid. Why wasn't Ray the strongest creature ?


What do the Admirals have to do with this?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Dellinger (Jul 24, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Rayleigh was certain that he could both fight Kizaru and assist the SHs in Sabaody if he were younger and he fought Kizaru to a standstill after 20+ years of inactivity. Kizaru is Yonko level.
> 
> Name one character that could afford to take their eyes off of an Admiral and accomplish what Rayleigh implied he would in his prime. Even WB needed to devote 100% of his attention to the Admirals. He and his commanders got punished for the slightest opening.
> 
> That should tell you enough about how strong Rayleigh was. I have him on the same level as pre-MF old WB, possibly a bit stronger. He would be the WSM in the current era.





Eustathios said:


> What do the Admirals have to do with this?



Do I have to search for more ?


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## Eustathios (Jul 24, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> Do I have to search for more ?


Yes, it's the other way around actually. Old Rayleigh gets hype from fighting an Admiral. Kizaru has already proved himself like the others.


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## Dellinger (Jul 24, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Yes, it's the other way around actually. Old Rayleigh gets hype from fighting an Admiral. Kizaru has already proved himself like the others.


Kizaru has proved shit actually. I can actually shit on your narrative in a single post wit a few comparisons between Sabondy and Wano. 

Rayleigh easily keeping up with Kizaru isnt a good thing for Kizaru. It actually makes him look bad as does every single [Blocked Domain] member escaping from him. Hawkins not giving 2 shits about him when he was terrified of Kaido and had 0 chance of escape is actually Oda making a direct comparison. 

Kizaru being unable to do shit to Marco in a direct confrontation when Marco outright admits he's shit compared to Kaido is also not a showing.

Some guys, including you try to find way to indirectly show that the Admirals somehow are on par with the Yonko. No, they aren't.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2 | Dislike 1


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## Eustathios (Jul 24, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> Kizaru has proved shit actually. I can actually shit on your narrative in a single post wit a few comparisons between Sabondy and Wano.
> 
> Rayleigh easily keeping up with Kizaru isnt a good thing for Kizaru. It actually makes him look bad as does every single [Blocked Domain] member escaping from him.


Kaido never defeated someone on Rayleigh's level in Wano.


Dellinger said:


> Hawkins not giving 2 shits about him when he was terrified of Kaido and had 0 chance of escape is actually Oda making a direct comparison.


Hawkins got wrecked as a result of his foolishness.


Dellinger said:


> Kizaru being unable to do shit to Marco in a direct confrontation


Never happened. Not fodderizing someone in a single clash does not mean you can't do shit to them.


Dellinger said:


> when Marco outright admits he's shit compared to Kaido is also not a showing.


Never happened again. I would like a panel of this.


Dellinger said:


> Some guys, including you try to find way to indirectly show that the Admirals somehow are on par with the Yonko. No, they aren't.


This was about Rayleigh, but okay.


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## Pirao (Jul 24, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> Some guys, including you try to find way to indirectly show that the Admirals somehow are on par with the Yonko. No, they aren't.


 

Can't even understand a kid's comic.


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## Dellinger (Jul 24, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Kaido never defeated someone on Rayleigh's level in Wano.


Kaido defeated current Luffy, Zoro and Law. Unless you think Ray can solo them which is laughbable


Eustathios said:


> Hawkins got wrecked as a result of his foolishness.


Hawkins was terrified of Kaido and didn’t give a shit about Kizaru. That’s an undisputed fact. Not to mention that he also es


Eustathios said:


> Never happened. Not fodderizing someone in a single clash does not mean you can't do shit to them.


Single clash ? Not one admiral did a thing to him


Eustathios said:


> Never happened again. I would like a panel of this.



panel ? Marco outright admits that he can’t do shit to him in the Ace flashback

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Dellinger (Jul 24, 2021)

Pirao said:


> Can't even understand a kid's comic.


I do understand it better than you

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3


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## AmitDS (Jul 24, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> Some guys, including you try to find way to indirectly show that the Admirals somehow are on par with the Yonko. No, they aren't.


Yeah I'm beginning to think that this is as a result of people believing that Admirals = Emperors so if Old Rayleigh held off Kizaru then Prime Rayleigh would be his superior and thus above Shanks, Kaido, Big Mom and also Shiki.

All this seems to stem from the Admiral = Emperor claim since otherwise no one would ever think to argue about Rayleigh being above everyone except Prime WB and Roger.

They are throwing power scaling off based on one of their beliefs being contradicted unless they adjust Rayleigh. And if this keeps happening then I think they'd have to reconcile more portions and aspects of the manga.

Now that they opened this can of worms they may have to put Scooper and Oden above the emperors too since they were portrayed as closer to Rayleigh than Roger and then explain why Roger was even challenged if he had three close to Emperor leveled fighters.

It also begs the question as to why Fujutora, Gion, Tokikake, Greenbull, Kizaru, Akainu, Sengoku, Garp and even Tsuru don't just dominate since each are at least emperor leveled using this current logic where Garp and Sengoku  aren't the only ones. 

It's really messy tbh and is getting messier and harder to justify as the series progresses.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Pirao (Jul 24, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> I do understand it better than you


Yes, clearly



Dellinger said:


> Ashura hurt Kaido yes but *where is the scar people are talkin about ?*


That's why you deny things that have been clearly shown in the manga

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Eustathios (Jul 24, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> Kaido defeated current Luffy, Zoro and Law. Unless you think Ray can solo them which is laughbable


Zoro was defeated by Hakai. Rayleigh is indeed stronger than Luffy or Law. 


Dellinger said:


> Hawkins was terrified of Kaido and didn’t give a shit about Kizaru. That’s an undisputed fact. Not to mention that he also es


John the Giant and Ronse also thought they could stop WB. Character arrogance is a thing in OP. Hawkins got wrecked. There isn't much to discuss about that. 


Dellinger said:


> Single clash ? Not one admiral did a thing to him


Yes, each one had a single clash. Kaido's peer, BM admitted that it wouldn't be easy to take down Marco. What's the point?


Dellinger said:


> panel ? Marco outright admits that he can’t do shit to him in the Ace flashback


You just made this up.  Where does Marco outright admit that he can't do shit to Kaido?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mihawk (Jul 24, 2021)

Captain Altintop said:


> I got the feeling that Kizaru would beat Old Rayleigh with high (highest) diff. only because of Stamina issues if they continued fighting. I didn't get the feeling that Old Ray could push him to extreme-ish diff.
> 
> Prime Ray = Old Ray + More Stamina and little bit more speed maybe.  Otherwise there is not much difference between Old and Prime if no serious illness occured.



The biggest takeaway though is the fact that Rayleigh was confident that if he was younger, he'd be able to deal with Kizaru _and _a Shichibukai + Sentomaru and Pacifistas. I feel like only the likes of the Yonko or greater could fight an Admiral and still afford to multi-task.

As for stamina, he was inactive for over 20 years so it was normal. Having more speed would also be crucial, as it helps him fight stronger opponents, and we know how fast Kizaru is.

I think in his Prime, Rayleigh would've had greater strength, lethality, Haki, overall physical attributes and greater cutting power. Just look at what a top tier-non DF using swordsman like Mihawk can accomplish. The iceberg cutting feat remains one of the most impressive casual feats of the series. Prime Ray should be able to replicate that without much issue. Shanks knocking out fodder and indenting WB's ship? I'm pretty sure that being the master of the MC in Haki and the audience's exposition guide to the concepts makes him qualified to be considered a full-fledged master class in usage, especially in prime.

Finally, I'm repeating myself but Shanks was an apprentice of Roger and Rayleigh. He later grew into his prime and became a Yonko, one of 4 individuals who aspire to become Pirate King, but they haven't been able to. Roger > the Emperors, and Roger is also > Prime Ray. It's not so far fetched to think they are comparable.

The idea that Kaido, Big Mom, or Shanks pushes Roger to extreme-diff isn't based on anything concrete either. Only Whitebeard and Garp were considered truly as his peers. If Rayleigh can give Roger anything resembling a high-difficulty fight, then he's as strong as any of the Yonko. Even if you don’t subscribe to Yonko=admirals, and believe that the Yonko are stronger, it’s real easy to figure out that Ray was on their level too.


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## Sherlōck (Jul 24, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> The biggest takeaway though is the fact that Rayleigh was confident that if he was younger, he'd be able to deal with Kizaru _and _a Shichibukai + Sentomaru and Pacifistas. I feel like only the likes of the Yonko or greater could fight an Admiral and still afford to multi-task.



That's not really a big deal as people make it out to be. 

Shiki fought both Garp and Sengoku for a good amount of time before going down. Here one was his peer and one was slightly stronger. So fighting one shot materials like Kuma, Sentomaru and Pacifistas aren't really a big deal while fighting another top tier

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Pirao (Jul 24, 2021)

Sherlōck said:


> That's not really a big deal as people make it out to be.
> 
> Shiki fought both Garp and Sengoku for a good amount of time before going down. Here one was his peer and one was slightly stronger. So fighting one shot materials like Kuma, Sentomaru and Pacifistas aren't really a big deal while fighting another top tier


It is a big deal when it's been shown repeteadly that any minor distraction when facing a top tier can end the fight inmediately. Oden, Marco and Jozu are proof of that.


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## Sherlōck (Jul 24, 2021)

Pirao said:


> It is a big deal when it's been shown repeteadly that any minor distraction when facing a top tier can end the fight inmediately. Oden, Marco and Jozu are proof of that.



Oden, Marco and Jozu were not on the level of their opponent.


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## Pirao (Jul 24, 2021)

Sherlōck said:


> Oden, Marco and Jozu were not on the level of their opponent.


Oden wasn't on the level of young Kaido?  So Oden isn't even a top tier, then?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jul 24, 2021)

Pirao said:


> Oden wasn't on the level of young Kaido?  So Oden isn't even a top tier, then?


He has terminal tier specialist brain


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## Mihawk (Jul 24, 2021)

Sherlōck said:


> That's not really a big deal as people make it out to be.
> 
> Shiki fought both Garp and Sengoku for a good amount of time before going down. Here one was his peer and one was slightly stronger. So fighting one shot materials like Kuma, Sentomaru and Pacifistas aren't really a big deal while fighting another top tier



Kuma was quick enough to intercept Ray and Kiz in the middle of their exchange. His strength is unknown, let alone whether he's one-shot material or not. But yeah, the rest are fodder.

Still, that's beside the point; we know what happens when 2 admiral level guys fight. It's an equal exchange that lasts for 10 days. To me, fighting another Admiral if you're on their level requires full attention. The implication that Ray could have gone on to ignore Kizaru and still take care of him later speaks volumes (more so to the fact that he might've been stronger). Kizaru even lampshades this by asking if Rayleigh is trying to make him look bad here.


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## Dellinger (Jul 24, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Zoro was defeated by Hakai. Rayleigh is indeed stronger than Luffy or Law.


Zoro was defeated by Kaido. hakai did most of the work but lets not forget that Kaido dealt with Luffy, Zoro and Law in a short span.


Eustathios said:


> John the Giant and Ronse also thought they could stop WB. Character arrogance is a thing in OP. Hawkins got wrecked. There isn't much to discuss about that.


Hawkins said he would survive against Kizaru which he did. this is the difference


*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 










These few pages tell everything we need to know


Eustathios said:


> Yes, each one had a single clash. Kaido's peer, BM admitted that it wouldn't be easy to take down Marco. What's the point?


BM got ahold of Marco the moment she got pissed. Kizaru only hurt him because he was distracted.


Eustathios said:


> You just made this up.  Where does Marco outright admit that he can't do shit to Kaido?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Eustathios (Jul 24, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> Zoro was defeated by Kaido. hakai did most of the work but lets not forget that Kaido dealt with Luffy, Zoro and Law in a short span.


Blackbeard defeated WB too. It's just that most of the work was done by Akainu and fodder Marines.


Dellinger said:


> Hawkins said he would survive against Kizaru which he did. this is the difference
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


I already adressed this.


Dellinger said:


> BM got ahold of Marco the moment she got pissed.


Then proceeded to ask Perospero to intervene just like Kizaru asked Onigumo.
So that's Marco saying he's shit to Kaido?  He says he's ready to attack Wano the moment WB gives the order. How did you equate that to Marco _outright_ saying he's shit to Kaido.


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## trance (Jul 24, 2021)

to think white hawk used to have akainu's real name as his forum name lmao

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sherlōck (Jul 24, 2021)

Pirao said:


> Oden wasn't on the level of young Kaido?  So Oden isn't even a top tier, then?



Not this, Oden was a top tier shit again.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 24, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> Hawkins said he would survive against Kizaru which he did.



*Spoiler*: __ 













> Survive
> One Piece




Dellinger said:


> Not one admiral did a thing to him

Reactions: Winner 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Sherlōck (Jul 24, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> Kuma was quick enough to intercept Ray and Kiz in the middle of their exchange. His strength is unknown, let alone whether he's one-shot material or not. But yeah, the rest are fodder.



Kuma is fast. Doesn’t mean he is strong. Even if he was YC2 level, that's still nothing to top tiers. 



Mihawk said:


> Still, that's beside the point; we know what happens when 2 admiral level guys fight. It's an equal exchange that lasts for 10 days. To me, fighting another Admiral if you're on their level requires full attention. The implication that Ray could have gone on to ignore Kizaru and still take care of him later speaks volumes (more so to the fact that he might've been stronger). Kizaru even lampshades this by asking if Rayleigh is trying to make him look bad here.



That implication is fan made. 

Nowhere did Ray said he could ignore Kizaru nor take care of him later. I do think Prime Ray was a top tier on par with current Shanks but I swear you guys come up with weirdest shit to justify your tier lists


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## Mihawk (Jul 24, 2021)

Sherlōck said:


> That implication is fan made.
> 
> Nowhere did Ray said he could ignore Kizaru nor take care of him later. I do think Prime Ray was a top tier on par with current Shanks but I swear you guys come up with weirdest shit to justify your tier lists


The implication is basically common sense. He implied he could go over there and help while still engaged in combat with Kizaru. 

I believe Prime Ray > Kizaru.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Furinji Saiga (Jul 24, 2021)

I think Shanks and Prime Rayleigh are about even. 

Rayleigh in his prime is above Kaido/Meme. And obviously hes above current Teach who is growing, but Teach will end up stronger as we get to EOS. 

EOS Teach > Prime Rayleigh = Shanks > Kaido = Meme >= Current Teach

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Sherlōck (Jul 24, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> The implication is basically common sense. He implied he could go over there and help while still engaged in combat with Kizaru.
> 
> I believe Prime Ray > Kizaru.



It's not really.  As I have stated top tiers can fight multiple opponents. It's not a testament of their superiority if they fight 3 fodders along side a top tier for a limited amount of time.

You can believe Prime Ray is above Kizaru, I  disagree but have no problem with that.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 24, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> panel ? Marco outright admits that he can’t do shit to him in the Ace flashback


Marco knows that himself + Izo + Ace will lose to his crew. Not to mention that Izo and Ace will get fried early on


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## Juub (Jul 24, 2021)

Agreed. Kaido and Meme are frauds. Shanks is a cripple. Whitebeard is dead, and Teach is still growing.

Rayleigh is such a chad. The Dark King. Meanwhile Kaido had Yamato by donating sperm because he hates the idea of sleeping with women.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Seraphoenix (Jul 25, 2021)

Someone said Rayleigh had amazing haki portrayal but when I asked for the panels, nothing.

Another one said he was put on a pedestal and when I asked for panels, again nothing.

Pretty evident that a large number of opinions here are not actually based on the manga, but people repeating lies over and over until someone picks up on the lies and repeats it as if it's ground truth. 

Prime Rayleigh loses to every Yonko. He washes every marine except Garp though, I'll give him that.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## TheWiggian (Jul 25, 2021)

Juub said:


> Rayleigh is such a chad. The Dark King. Meanwhile Kaido had Yamato by donating sperm because he hates the idea of sleeping with women.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dellinger (Jul 25, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Blackbeard defeated WB too. It's just that most of the work was done by Akainu and fodder Marines.


Teach had his crew jump on WB. How are those similar is beyond me ?


Eustathios said:


> I already adressed this.


You didnt address shit actually. Hawkins was terrified of Kaido, calling the Yonko different creatures from him or Law. Hawkins didnt give 2 shits about Kizaru. Doffy is terrified of Kaido yet doesnt care about Fujitora or Kuzan. Those are things we see in the manga, not your imaginary portrayal


Eustathios said:


> Then proceeded to ask Perospero to intervene just like Kizaru asked Onigumo.


When did Kizaru ask Onigumo ? Also when did Kizaru get the best of Marco so easily ?


Eustathios said:


> So that's Marco saying he's shit to Kaido?  He says he's ready to attack Wano the moment WB gives the order. How did you equate that to Marco _outright_ saying he's shit to Kaido.


Marco literally screams to Ace that what hes thinking cant happen. Marco was literally trying to even team up with Pero in order to have better chances with Kaido.


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## trance (Jul 25, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> He washes every marine except Garp though, I'll give him that


what about sengoku? he doesn't have garp's hype but roger still considered him a strong opponent


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## trance (Jul 25, 2021)

just checked the first page

9 tier specialists 

which is a bit on the lower end tbh but still funny


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## Mihawk (Jul 25, 2021)

trance said:


> just checked the first page
> 
> 9 tier specialists


He’s not wrong about these “mere” emperors tho


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## TheWiggian (Jul 25, 2021)

trance said:


> just checked the first page
> 
> 9 tier specialists



All done by mere, salty fans of mere yonks


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## Eustathios (Jul 25, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> Teach had his crew jump on WB. How are those similar is beyond me ?


You do realize the point is that someone else did most of the work in both cases, right?


Dellinger said:


> You didnt address shit actually. Hawkins was terrified of Kaido, calling the Yonko different creatures from him or Law. Hawkins didnt give 2 shits about Kizaru.


This is exactly what I adressed.


Dellinger said:


> Doffy is terrified of Kaido yet doesnt care about Fujitora or Kuzan.


Thanks to his status, yes.


Dellinger said:


> When did Kizaru ask Onigumo ?


Oh wait, you're right unlike BM he could handle the situation on his own and not ask the someone else for help or run away because it would be a difficult fight.


Dellinger said:


> Also when did Kizaru get the best of Marco?


How is this relevant?


Dellinger said:


> Marco literally screams to Ace that what hes thinking cant happen.


So you're saying Marco telling Ace he can't take down Kaido in his own base, with his entire crew, in an island the world knows nothing about, without WB's approval is the same as Marco saying he's shit to Kaido? Talk about imaginary portrayal.


Dellinger said:


> Marco was literally trying to even team up with Pero in order to have better chances with Kaido.


How is that an indication of anything? Potential alliances are always good and even better if it meant the biggest allies of the BPs switching sides. It's not like Marco was shuddering in fear when Perospero and BM turned down the offer. He clashed with them right away.


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## Mihawk (Jul 25, 2021)

To be fair, Marco did say he'd be happy to join Ace if their Captain gave the go ahead.

*"What's your basis for suggesting such a thing"* was in reference to Ace being confident that they'd win for sure once WB gave them permission to operate. Obviously, we know Ace is prone to acting way over his head and being bullheaded in general. This overconfidence and rashness led him to being defeated by Blackbeard and Akainu, and he was fortunate he wasn't captured when he entered Wano because Kaido and company were off on a raid. Regardless, even WB and Akainu were apprehensive about entering Wano (for whatever stupid reasons since neither of them seem to know about Kaido), so can it really be held against Marco?

As for Kaido and Kizaru, I think it's safe to say Oda has placed Kaido on a higher pedestal to Kizaru in particular, as an individual. Kizaru himself was willing to go to Wano before being stopped by Akainu. But there is credence to the Supernovas being more apprehensive to Kaido than they would to Kizaru. The same goes for Doflamingo and Kuzan. While Doflamingo wanted no parts of the admiral, it was implied that facing Kaido's wrath was a less preferable or more horrific outcome than facing capture by the Admirals. This could be due to the fact that if the Admirals captured Doffy he would simply be imprisoned, while Kaido would most likely kill or torture him.

But still, I'd like to think it was decent hype for Kaido which is later further supported by his feats throughout the arc. Like, I honestly don't believe any Admiral in the current era could beat him, except perhaps Akainu. But that's a topic for another discussion.

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## Dellinger (Jul 25, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> To be fair, Marco did say he'd be happy to join Ace if their Captain gave the go ahead.
> 
> *"What's your basis for suggesting such a thing"* was in reference to Ace being confident that they'd win for sure once WB gave them permission to operate. Obviously, we know Ace is prone to acting way over his head and being bullheaded in general. This overconfidence and rashness led him to being defeated by Blackbeard and Akainu, and he was fortunate he wasn't captured when he entered Wano because Kaido and company were off on a raid. Regardless, even WB and Akainu were apprehensive about entering Wano (for whatever stupid reasons since neither of them seem to know about Kaido), so can it really be held against Marco?
> 
> ...



You know it annoys me when people say things like Ray being stronger than the Yonko. As i said previously they only do it because they have to keep the Admirals on a certain pedestal. 

If Ray was stronger:

Why is Kaido the WSC and not Ray ? 

why is Kaido the strongest in one on one and not Ray ?

Why do the Yonko have the highest bounties ?

Why are they the big guys for 15 years ?

Why did Oda spent 400 chapters on the conflict with Kaido ? 

will I get answers or people trolling yet again ?

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## TheWiggian (Jul 25, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> You know it annoys me when people say things like Ray being stronger than the Yonko. As i said previously they only do it because they have to keep the Admirals on a certain pedestal.



That's just the enemies ,you created in your head.



Dellinger said:


> If Ray was stronger:
> 
> Why is Kaido the WSC and not Ray ?



Because Ray is retired and out of his prime right now.



Dellinger said:


> why is Kaido the strongest in one on one and not Ray ?



Because Ray is retired and out of his prime now?



Dellinger said:


> Why do the Yonko have the highest bounties ?



Ray's bounty was not revealed yet and since when bounty = strength anyway?

Roger's was a good bit above the likes of Yonks like Meme and Laido and Ray was considered his partner despite being a subordinate if bounty is something important and power related to you, why was Ray considered the PK's partner, you know the guy that was like a billion more wilorth than the WSC?





Dellinger said:


> Why are they the big guys for 15 years ?



You mean why are they the big guys since Old WB died? Characters like Ray, Shiki et cetera are all retired and out of their prime, that's why. The other pirates are all lacking. As Chinjao states the new pirate age is a bunch of clowns and only BB been hinted at to become a big name alongside Luffy.



Dellinger said:


> Why did Oda spent 400 chapters on the conflict with Kaido ?



Because the gold medalists are all retired, out of their primes or dead at this point.



Dellinger said:


> Will I get answers or people trolling yet again ?



Not sure how you come to the conclusion anyone discusses here anything marine related when the fucking thread is about prime Rayleigh > Yonks. No marines, no world government, no revos.


You cope too much.

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## Dellinger (Jul 25, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> That's just the enemies ,you created in your head.


No one of them is 


TheWiggian said:


> Because Ray is retired and out of his prime right now.


Nah. Why wasn’t Ray called the strongest creature before ?


TheWiggian said:


> Because Ray is retired and out of his prime now?


Again why wasn’t Ray the guy who is the WSC and the best in one on one ?


TheWiggian said:


> Ray's bounty was not revealed yet and since when bounty = strength anyway?


Bounty is directly tied with strength unless it’s stated. You have to be stupid to still doubt that


TheWiggian said:


> Roger's was a good bit above the likes of Yonks like Meme and Laido and Ray was considered his partner despite being a subordinate if bounty is something important and power related to you, why was Ray considered the PK's partner, you know the guy that was like a billion more wilorth than the WSC?


What partner ? He was his right hand. You’d think if Ray was the biggest deal ever they’d constantly attack him in Sabaody. They dont


TheWiggian said:


> You mean why are they the big guys since Old WB died? Characters like Ray, Shiki et cetera are all retired and out of their prime, that's why. The other pirates are all lacking. As Chinjao states the new pirate age is a bunch of clowns and only BB been hinted at to become a big name alongside Luffy.


Current era is stronger than the previous one. We have the Yonko, countless pirates, the warlords etc

that’s why it’s called the great pirate era

Also I’m strictly talking about Oda spending 15 years on hyping these guys.



TheWiggian said:


> Because the gold medalists are all retired, out of their primes or dead at this point.


Who’s a gold medalist ? Shiki was a failure. Kaido as an apprentice was a bigger deal than him

Also are you stupid ? Imagine how much of an idiot this makes Oda look like. Imagine spending 400 chapters on a guy that’s not important




TheWiggian said:


> Not sure how you come to the conclusion anyone discusses here anything marine related when the fucking thread is about prime Rayleigh > Yonks. No marines, no world government, no revos.
> 
> 
> You cope too much.


Because Ray tied with an Admiral so he has to be stronger than a Yonko. That’s literally the agenda of this section

Rayleigh has nothing on a Yonko. There is no basis for thst

you guys wanted to hype Rays Haki yet Kaido and Mom go ahead and show the same shit Roger and WB do. Why can’t Rayleigh split the skies ? Why doesn’t Rayleigh has the physical capabilities of Kaido or WB ? These are all questions you don’t have any answer for. You know why ? Because Kaido and the other Yonko are stronger.

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## Eustathios (Jul 25, 2021)

Imagine building up your forces for more than 20 years, actively trying to find One Piece, pouring enormous resources into establishing your dominance in the seas and you're still a silver medallist to an old man who never even joined the race. The Yonko are in reality just losers. They aren't even silver medallists. Bronze medallists at best. Roger was the winner, WB was the silver medallist by his own choice. Kaido and BM were overshadowed by an elderly version of him.  


*Spoiler*: __

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## TheWiggian (Jul 25, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> No one of them is toy







Dellinger said:


> Nah. Why wasn’t Ray called the strongest creature before ?



Because there were bigger names than mere WSC's today, like PK and WSM or the Devil among pirates.



Dellinger said:


> Again why wasn’t Ray the guy who is the WSC and the best in one on one ?



Because there were more impressive candidates than so called WSC.



Dellinger said:


> Bounty is directly tied with strength unless it’s stated. You have to be stupid to still doubt that



Bounty reflects the threat level as proven by statements in the manga. Shanks is superior to Kaido as he sent him home before MF but has a 600M lower bounty. Big Mom is equal or superior to Kaido based on their equal fight and older sister portrayal and she is 300M below him in bounty because he is more likely to attack civilians than those two for example.



Dellinger said:


> What partner ? He was his right hand. You’d think if Ray was the biggest deal ever they’d constantly attack him in Sabaody. They dont



Not sure what your argument is here. Works for me though, Ray in his old age is so powerful that neither pirate nor marines or anyone else dares to attack him despite sightings, rumours and reports.



Dellinger said:


> Current era is stronger than the previous one. We have the Yonko, countless pirates, the warlords etc



You have the quantity but not the quality.  The mere fact that Roger with a few words sparked that new generation is enough proof for that.



Dellinger said:


> that’s why it’s called the great pirate era



Thanks to the pirate king, no yonkou has the same kind of influence.



Dellinger said:


> Also I’m strictly talking about Oda spending 15 years on hyping these guys.



Oda spent more time fleshing out crying princesses than your beloved Yonko in those 15 years.



Dellinger said:


> Who’s a gold medalist ? Shiki was a failure. Kaido as an apprentice was a bigger deal than him



Shiki managed to be one of the most formidable rivals Roger had, no one bar captain Rocks and WB managed to do the same from the rocks crew.



Dellinger said:


> Also are you stupid ? Imagine how much of an idiot this makes Oda look like. Imagine spending 400 chapters on a guy that’s not important



The only one that was made a big deal out of the yonko by Oda was WB, who went out in a massive, glorious war, dying and ending the old era so Kaido can get a bit of the spotlight else he would've to stand forever in WB's shadow.



Dellinger said:


> Because Ray tied with an Admiral so he has to be stronger than a Yonko. That’s literally the agenda of this section
> 
> Rayleigh has nothing on a Yonko. There is no basis for thst



No Ray stalemated an admiral in his old age, that's why the majority believes he can handle someone on Kizaru's level easier in his prime.

Yonko has nothing on a prime Rayleigh. There is no basis for that < I too can talk out of my ass, pretty much everyone can.

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## Mihawk (Jul 25, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> You know it annoys me when people say things like Ray being stronger than the Yonko. As i said previously they only do it because they have to keep the Admirals on a certain pedestal.


Why should this annoy you?

Ppl holding Ray in higher regard can be simply due to respect for Roger and his right hand. Most hold Roger in higher regard to the Yonko, so Rayleigh being Yonko level is no problem at all.

It may have nothing to do with Admirals and Marines.



Dellinger said:


> If Ray was stronger:
> 
> Why is Kaido the WSC and not Ray ?


Was Kaido the WSC in Roger or Whitebeard’s era?


Dellinger said:


> why is Kaido the strongest in one on one and not Ray ?


Just for the same of argument, but If you have 7 losses along with 17 captures, are you really the strongest one on one fighter? I have no problem with this, but if we acknowledge rumours by random ppl in the world as author’s intent, why are we quick to ignore or call foul on statements made by major characters which acknowledge WB’s superiority over fellow Yonko even after his death?

Kaido can be the strongest person alive right now, and it still wouldn’t automatically include a Prime Ray who is no longer relevant in the world or the story.



Dellinger said:


> Why do the Yonko have the highest bounties ?


Because in addition to being the 4 strongest/greatest Pirates in the world _right now, _they have amassed crews, fleets, power, and influence over massive territories that is unprecedented in any period of time of piracy.


Dellinger said:


> Why are they the big guys for 15 years ?


Roger has been the big guy from the beginning. Rayleigh has been a legend and one of the big guys since 2009 when 2 of the Yonko weren’t even named. His retirement shouldn’t be held against him. He fell off hard.

We talk about threat and wanted level, but even one of the WG’s strongest fighters had to rage bc he couldn’t capture an older version of him.


Dellinger said:


> Why did Oda spent 400 chapters on the conflict with Kaido ?


He’s a Yonko...along with Big Mom, they’re the biggest threat and villains the SHs have ever faced. No previous enemy even compare in terms of strength. I mean, Oda spent 102 chapters on the conflict with Doflamingo. It doesn’t make him a bigger deal than everyone with less screen time. Same thing here. Kaido appearing in 300+ chapters more than Roger, WB, or Garp doesn’t automatically put him over them.


Dellinger said:


> will I get answers or people trolling yet again ?



No trolling. I genuinely think that the admirals angle is only one potential factor. But if we were to pretend that Kizaru doesn’t exist, there’s still nothing wrong in the story with Ray being an Emperor level fighter in his prime.

You can call this old gen wank, but again it is a testament to Rayleigh greatness that he was seen as a legend in the same era as Roger/WB rather than just some second fiddle.

Kaido can be stronger. But Ray can still be “Yonko level” is how I see it.

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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 25, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> Rayleigh has nothing on a Yonko.



*Spoiler*: __ 


















So this disgrace can be a Yonko, but the Pirate King's right hand man, the man who Garp the Fist was cautious about and could tango with an Admiral even after years of retirement, can't be Yonko level in his prime.

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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 25, 2021)

Imagine not believing the op fully ends this debate

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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jul 25, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> Someone said Rayleigh had amazing haki portrayal but when I asked for the panels, nothing.
> 
> Another one said he was put on a pedestal and when I asked for panels, again nothing.
> 
> ...


I don’t know how to link panels and I was ignoring you because you’re annoying and you seem not even to understand how stories work. You don’t need a panel to prove the story puts Roger on a pedestal. It’s not about someone in the story going “Roger would mid diff the yonko” that’s silly. Roger is the man almost every pirate in the story is chasing even your precious yonko. The main character is chasing him. I really don’t get how that’s not obvious. I guess if you want specific examples for your tier specialist autism when they’re trying to hype up whitebeard at mf one of the things that’s put along wb being referred to as the wsm is being able to match Roger. Not only that he matched wb when wb was even stronger. You also have chinjao calling the yonko silver medalists in comparison to Roger. So Roger is the gold medalist. Do you know what people stand on at medal ceremonies? Do you know what the gold medalist is put on in comparison to everyone?


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## Mihawk (Jul 25, 2021)

Daisuke Jigen said:


>



Crazy how WB getting stabbed by Squard keeps getting brought up, but we ignore Big Mom getting cooked by Nami

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## Dellinger (Jul 25, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> Why should this annoy you?
> 
> Ppl holding Ray in higher regard can be simply due to respect for Roger and his right hand. Most hold Roger in higher regard to the Yonko, so Rayleigh being Yonko level is no problem at all.


Ray is not Roger. That's the point. People trashed the Yonko because Roger and WB showed Ad CoC and act like Kaido and Mom didnt do it.


Mihawk said:


> It may have nothing to do with Admirals and Marines.
> 
> 
> Was Kaido the WSC in Roger or Whitebeard’s era?



It does have to do it with. People just cant accept the fact that Oda has the emperors as the strongest.

No he wasnt. But apparently he was stronger than old WB according to Ace's novel which Oda supervises.


Mihawk said:


> Just for the same of argument, but If you have 7 losses along with 17 captures, are you really the strongest one on one fighter? I have no problem with this, but if we acknowledge rumours by random ppl in the world as author’s intent, why are we quick to ignore or call foul on statements made by major characters which acknowledge WB’s superiority over fellow Yonko even after his death?


Luffy has so many loses yet he will be the strongest. Will those loses overshadow him becoming the PK ?

Kaido we know that challenged the marines and other emperors solo. Thats a manga fact coming from the narrator, not me. Losing to armies is not a shame.


Mihawk said:


> Kaido can be the strongest person alive right now, and it still wouldn’t automatically include a Prime Ray who is no longer relevant in the world or the story.


Manga are simple stories. If Oda wanted to have Ray stronger, he wouldnt call Kaido the WSC nor the best in one on one. 


Mihawk said:


> Because in addition to being the 4 strongest/greatest Pirates in the world _right now, _they have amassed crews, fleets, power, and influence over massive territories that is unprecedented in any period of time of piracy.
> 
> Roger has been the big guy from the beginning. Rayleigh has been a legend and one of the big guys since 2009 when 2 of the Yonko weren’t even named. His retirement shouldn’t be held against him. He fell off hard.


Why do you bring up Roger all the time ? Roger is Roger and Ray is Ray. Different characters. The benchmark are Roger and the emperors not Ray.


Mihawk said:


> We talk about threat and wanted level, but even one of the WG’s strongest fighters had to rage bc he couldn’t capture an older version of him.


So what ? Thats a point against Kizaru. People about Kaidos captures yet forget that he also escaped all times by himself


Mihawk said:


> He’s a Yonko...along with Big Mom, they’re the biggest threat and villains the SHs have ever faced. No previous enemy even compare in terms of strength. I mean, Oda spent 102 chapters on the conflict with Doflamingo. It doesn’t make him a bigger deal than everyone with less screen time. Same thing here. Kaido appearing in 300+ chapters more than Roger, WB, or Garp doesn’t automatically put him over them.


Do you realize how long is 400 chapters ? Kaido has been the big bad of the series since chapter 667. That's exactly 353 chapters. Most popular manga series dont even run that long. If he wasnt what Oda says he is then Oda wouldnt focus the entire post skip narrative on him


Mihawk said:


> No trolling. I genuinely think that the admirals angle is only one potential factor. But if we were to pretend that Kizaru doesn’t exist, there’s still nothing wrong in the story with Ray being an Emperor level fighter in his prime.
> 
> You can call this old gen wank, but again it is a testament to Rayleigh greatness that he was seen as a legend in the same era as Roger/WB rather than just some second fiddle.
> 
> Kaido can be stronger. But Ray can still be “Yonko level” is how I see it.


Kaido is stronger. Kaido only has 5 equals in his mind. Guys he truly considers them capable of fighting him to death. Rays captain, not Ray himself.

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## Mihawk (Jul 25, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> Ray is not Roger. That's the point. People trashed the Yonko because Roger and WB showed Ad CoC and act like Kaido and Mom didnt do it.


Yes Ray is not Roger. I'm not trashing the Yonko. To clarify, I think Ray was second to Roger, but so are the Yonko.


Dellinger said:


> It does have to do it with. People just cant accept the fact that Oda has the emperors as the strongest.


In the current setting, the Emperors are among the strongest. They're definitely confirmed to be the strongest active pirates out there, officially.


Dellinger said:


> No he wasnt. But apparently he was stronger than old WB according to Ace's novel which Oda supervises.


Alright then. I may have seen the quote before but can't quite remember.  I respect you a lot my man, so I'll take your word for it and *concede* this. Just asking that we all read between the lines.



Dellinger said:


> Luffy has so many loses yet he will be the strongest. Will those loses overshadow him becoming the PK ?


Luffy is not Kaido and vice versa, and Kaido didn't become PK in 20 years as WB held the reins to the sea according to Doflamingo. Objectively, of course everyone takes their bumps and bruises on the way to greatness. I'm sure the Admirals, Shanks, Mihawk, etc, all took their Ls at one point or another. I don't expect any legitimate top tier to have an undefeated record in their career in piracy unless they weren't really challenging themselves to begin with, which is impossible since you have to do so to get there. Losses are bound to happen. No shame on Kaido's resume.


Dellinger said:


> Kaido we know that challenged the marines and other emperors solo. Thats a manga fact coming from the narrator, not me. Losing to armies is not a shame.


I don't count his captures against him. I brought it up only to separate them from his individual defeats. He was captured 17 times, likely by the Marines and/or other pirates. These are obviously not 1v1 situations, but his losses were singled out. Now, it's entirely possible Kaido hasn't taken a single L since Roger died and this was all in his younger days. But the point is when the narrator states that when "people say 1v1, always bet on Kaido", it's hyperbole meant to place Kaido on a very high pedestal. Is it literal though? There is enough information in the manga and from Kaido's own statements that it might not be taken as such. Can a person be invincible in a 1v1 situation, when he already has a track record of losing 7 times?...

Now, it could be that other top tiers have taken more losses than Kaido and that makes him the best, but Oda has never divulged this. Or perhaps Kaido has challenged and been in more fights against top tiers than anyone else in the verse, and regardless of win/loss, this made him stronger and stronger until the point he became the strongest living thing right now. It's possible...the point is, we don't know yet. I speculate that this may likely be revealed in his backstory. He may even look more impressive than he does now.



Dellinger said:


> Manga are simple stories. If Oda wanted to have Ray stronger, he wouldnt call Kaido the WSC nor the best in one on one.


Again, I acknowledged Kaido can be stronger.


Dellinger said:


> Why do you bring up Roger all the time ? Roger is Roger and Ray is Ray. Different characters. *The benchmark are Roger and the emperors not Ray.*


The benchmark is Roger, and Shanks to a degree. Kaido is _not_ _The_ benchmark. He is a near insurmountable obstacle and a wall that needs to be taken down in the current arc. And why would Ray need to be the benchmark for Luffy anyways? He is neither an antagonist nor his ultimate goal, nor was he active for decades. MC's ultimate goal is Roger; not the Yonko, not Ray, not Shanks, not Kaido, etc.



Dellinger said:


> So what ? Thats a point against Kizaru. People about Kaidos captures yet forget that he also escaped all times by himself


I didn't bring it up as a point against Kaido or to place him below Ray.

I'm giving credence to the portrayal that a _significantly older _Rayleigh held off Kizaru who was unable to capture him. The man hasn't held a sword in over 20 years, and by his own admission implied he would've done much better if he was younger (which isn't hard to imagine considering age). It should speak volumes for his prime. Why not be impressed by Rayleigh at 76 years old fighting off a world power by himself instead of declaring it an anti-feat against Kizaru?? Some will disagree with me on this, but if Ray in his prime was visibly stronger than an Admiral, shouldn't that mean he's Yonko level anyways?


Dellinger said:


> Do you realize how long is 400 chapters ? Kaido has been the big bad of the series since chapter 667. That's exactly 353 chapters. Most popular manga series dont even run that long. If he wasnt what Oda says he is then Oda wouldnt focus the entire post skip narrative on him


I get the argument. Running time=prominence, and the prominence of a super-villain whose cast such a looming presence in the length of the story means he's the strongest...

but again, how does this relate to Rayleigh? He's not an antagonist and his role to the MC is different. Even if Luffy wanted to beat a prime version of him, he can't now because there is no time machine, and the man is literally done with piracy.


Dellinger said:


> Kaido is stronger. Kaido only has 5 equals *in his mind*. Guys *he truly considers them* capable of fighting him to death. Rays captain, not Ray himself.



Yes exactly. Those are the 5 people whom Kaido _knows _can fight or square up with him. Not to twist your words. Oden scarred him; Prime WB likely fought him a few times from anywhere between the Rocks days, the Roger era, and their stalemates as Emperors; Shanks we know intercepted him 2 years ago as a matter of fact, and it's possible they may have fought in the past, since all Emperors are rivals. Xebec was his captain, and thus his superior while Kaido was still young. Roger likely fought him from anywhere between God Valley and en route to becoming the Pirate King, the title that Kaido has coveted for decades...do we know he fought Rayleigh? The only time I can imagine this occurring was in GV.

I mean, Big Mom fought him for a couple days and they had the sky-splitting feat implying relative equality...despite being the only character who was shown to us to be able to fight him on equal footing, she was not included in his mind?? Isn't she a Yonko too? What about Garp? Surely, a man who nearly killed Roger countless times would qualify as sufficient competition in Kaido's mind. Or perhaps Garp never fought him 1v1 as the Marines surrounded and captured him, which is a reason he was not included. Same thing with Sengoku, another legend. What about Akainu? Or Mihawk?...I won't push it. But the point is, it's never been stated that he fought any of these guys, and the 5 equals in his mind are the guys _we know _he actually faced. Xebec, Roger, Whitebeard were his personal benchmarks whom he aimed to reach or surpass. He has history with Oden who scarred him as we all know too well. And then Shanks is pretty much his most concurrent rival as a fellow Emperor and someone who _we know_ had intercepted him in Marineford.

Kaido is one of the strongest characters in OP history, but his own perception does not necessarily decide who can fight him on equal grounds, *as proven by Big Mom*. Now, if you say that Kaido was on a separate tier from the Yonko and on the same level as Roger, that's different. But clearly this isn't the case as Shanks, a fellow Yonko was included. If one can rationalise that WB had declined in health to the point that he was no longer the WSM due to character statements and his own admission, then surely one can rationalise the context of Kaido's list. We know from his statements of "accepting defeat", that these are very likely the guys who may have handed him some of his only losses. Just food for thought.

To sum it up, him not counting Rayleigh does not mean the latter isn't Yonko level. I also do not think that Oden was stronger than Rayleigh just because he was in Kaido's list, and Ray wasn't. In fact, *Oden's inclusion specifically illustrates that these 5 individuals that Kaido personally held in high regard*.


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## Dellinger (Jul 25, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> Yes Ray is not Roger. I'm not trashing the Yonko. To clarify, I think Ray was second to Roger, but so are the Yonko.


Unless it's stated Ray was just Roger's right hand man. A legend yes but the Yonko are the rulers of the seas. They are different creatures.


Mihawk said:


> In the current setting, the Emperors are among the strongest. They're definitely confirmed to be the strongest active pirates out there, officially.
> 
> Alright then. I may have seen the quote before but can't quite remember.  I respect you a lot my man, so I'll take your word for it and *concede* this. Just asking that we all read between the lines.



Obviously this isn't about prime beard.


Mihawk said:


> Luffy is not Kaido and vice versa, and Kaido didn't become PK in 20 years as WB held the reins to the sea according to Doflamingo. Objectively, of course everyone takes their bumps and bruises on the way to greatness. I'm sure the Admirals, Shanks, Mihawk, etc, all took their Ls at one point or another. I don't expect any legitimate top tier to have an undefeated record in their career in piracy unless they weren't really challenging themselves to begin with, which is impossible since you have to do so to get there. Losses are bound to happen. No shame on Kaido's resume.


agree with you here.


Mihawk said:


> I don't count his captures against him. I brought it up only to separate them from his individual defeats. He was captured 17 times, likely by the Marines and/or other pirates. These are obviously not 1v1 situations, but his losses were singled out. Now, it's entirely possible Kaido hasn't taken a single L since Roger died and this was all in his younger days. But the point is when the narrator states that when "people say 1v1, always bet on Kaido", it's hyperbole meant to place Kaido on a very high pedestal. Is it literal though? There is enough information in the manga and from Kaido's own statements that it might not be taken as such. Can a person be invincible in a 1v1 situation, when he already has a track record of losing 7 times?...


That statement is about current Kaido. Kaidos career spans over 30 decades. As I've repeated multiple times Kaido wasn't the strongest creature from the day he was born. He climbed to reach that level. That's the whole point with him. He always found ways to get stronger.


Mihawk said:


> Now, it could be that other top tiers have taken more losses than Kaido and that makes him the best, but Oda has never divulged this. Or perhaps Kaido has challenged and been in more fights against top tiers than anyone else in the verse, and regardless of win/loss, this made him stronger and stronger until the point he became the strongest living thing right now. It's possible...the point is, we don't know yet. I speculate that this may likely be revealed in his backstory. He may even look more impressive than he does now.


More losses or not don't matter. Katakuri never lost. Was he stronger ? Roger according to Garp fought armies he never had a chance to win. Does that say anything ? Many pirates likely never lost but are ants for Kaido. As I said the point with Kaido is that he's somewhat like Luffy. He will always get back stronger, he won't run to paradise like Crocodile.  Heck even Kaido's fruit symbolises what I said.


Mihawk said:


> Again, I acknowledged Kaido can be stronger.
> 
> The benchmark is Roger, and Shanks to a degree. Kaido is _not_ _The_ benchmark. He is a near insurmountable obstacle and a wall that needs to be taken down in the current arc. And why would Ray need to be the benchmark for Luffy anyways? He is neither an antagonist nor his ultimate goal, nor was he active for decades. MC's ultimate goal is Roger; not the Yonko, not Ray, not Shanks, not Kaido, etc.


Yes the benchmark is Roger but let's not act like Kaido is not important. He freaking is.


Mihawk said:


> I didn't bring it up as a point against Kaido or to place him below Ray.
> 
> I'm giving credence to the portrayal that a _significantly older _Rayleigh held off Kizaru who was unable to capture him. The man hasn't held a sword in over 20 years, and by his own admission implied he would've done much better if he was younger (which isn't hard to imagine considering age). It should speak volumes for his prime. Why not be impressed by Rayleigh at 76 years old fighting off a world power by himself instead of declaring it an anti-feat against Kizaru?? Some will disagree with me on this, but if Ray in his prime was visibly stronger than an Admiral, shouldn't that mean he's Yonko level anyways?


I think Ray would defeat any Admiral but that has nothing to do with the Yonko. Beating any Admiral doesn't mean you can beat the Yonko


Mihawk said:


> I get the argument. Running time=prominence, and the prominence of a super-villain whose cast such a looming presence in the length of the story means he's the strongest...
> 
> but again, how does this relate to Rayleigh? He's not an antagonist and his role to the MC is different. Even if Luffy wanted to beat a prime version of him, he can't now because there is no time machine, and the man is literally done with piracy.


I'll explain it further.

Kaido isn't simply an arc villain where they go to his territory to fight. Since PH they tried to weaken his forces to have a chance. Then they tried to form other alliances with strong forces like an entire nation of warriors in Zou, freaking Marco etc And then we get to the climax of this where Kaido is squaring off against the next big time pirates, the wano samurai, the mink tribe and even his own child who was comprable in strength to Ace 4 years ago. I'll keep on going because some really need to read these things again and again.

Kaido is the only guy in the series who legit fought against 9 high tiers (no backing up like Akainu in MF) He beat them decisively 

Kaido has beaten Luffy 3 times already. Does any other have that record ?

Luffy has went through 2 power ups in the same arc and is still outclassed by Kaido. 

Kaido has fought Zoro who got 2 power ups also in this arc, Law, Kid, Killer and his own child. 

The guy is still going on strongly.

No other character will get such treatment. Luffy needs people to help him beat him, he never needed to team up against anyone prior. he would always find a way by himself. Akainu, Teach etc won't have Luffy gang up on them with the same team.


Mihawk said:


> Yes exactly. Those are the 5 people whom Kaido _knows _can fight or square up with him. Not to twist your words. Oden scarred him; Prime WB likely fought him a few times from anywhere between the Rocks days, the Roger era, and their stalemates as Emperors; Shanks we know intercepted him 2 years ago as a matter of fact, and it's possible they may have fought in the past, since all Emperors are rivals. Xebec was his captain, and thus his superior while Kaido was still young. Roger likely fought him from anywhere between God Valley and en route to becoming the Pirate King, the title that Kaido has coveted for decades...do we know he fought Rayleigh? The only time I can imagine this occurring was in GV.
> 
> I mean, Big Mom fought him for a couple days and they had the sky-splitting feat implying relative equality...despite being the only character who was shown to us to be able to fight him on equal footing, she was not included in his mind?? Isn't she a Yonko too? What about Garp? Surely, a man who nearly killed Roger countless times would qualify as sufficient competition in Kaido's mind. Or perhaps Garp never fought him 1v1 as the Marines surrounded and captured him, which is a reason he was not included. Same thing with Sengoku, another legend. What about Akainu? Or Mihawk?...I won't push it. But the point is, it's never been stated that he fought any of these guys, and the 5 equals in his mind are the guys _we know _he actually faced. Xebec, Roger, Whitebeard were his personal benchmarks whom he aimed to reach or surpass. He has history with Oden who scarred him as we all know too well. And then Shanks is pretty much his most concurrent rival as a fellow Emperor and someone who _we know_ had intercepted him in Marineford.
> 
> ...



I think Kaido didn't include Mom for a couple of reasons . They have a weird relationship. Also yes he might not have fought Garp or Sengoku or whatever but do you have many characters who've actually fought Roger, WB, Shanks, Oden and even tried their hand at Rocks ? Because I certainly don't. Maybe only Garp comes close to that.

Also I'm pretty sure that Roger, WB, Rocks probably beat him especially early on on hsi career. Shanks didn't or else Kaido wouldn't be the strongest in one on one.

Ray is incredibly strong but there is no basis for him being stronger than the emperors. Keeping Kizaru at being isn't a reason at all. That's all Im saying.

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## Perrin (Jul 25, 2021)

Maybe he’d be similar to current Yamato level, able to stall an emperor for a good length of time and with decent stacks and haki skills. Above YC1 but not quite emperor.

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## TheWiggian (Jul 25, 2021)

Let's revisit the Ace novel and not leave out the crucial parts that don't fit our narrative:


*Spoiler*: __ 











Rumours included WB was at his best in his 70's



Even in old age he overshadows the likes of Kaido/Meme and yet Garp puts Ray on the same pedestal as Whitebeard.



Oda shoves Kaido into the human drawer, confirming once again WB Prime > Old > Kaido.

Not unreasonable to believe that Prime Rayleigh could be above mere Yonko or at least on their level if his old self is that close to them.

No idea why people complain about Ray getting that much respect. He deserves it based on all information.

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## Eustathios (Jul 25, 2021)

That novel not even written by Oda is what most people refer to when they want to downplay WB. WB was the de facto Pirate King. Time to accept it. He was the one who watched over the throne despite not even wanting to be there. Let's leave secondary sources aside and see what Oda tells us in his manga.


*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 









And since we're selectively choosing when the narrator is an accurate source of information or not, here's what the narrator calls WB and his crew.


*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 










Conclusion

Buggy, Sengoku, Ivankov and Shanks call him the strongest man and pirate. Garp and Akainu say he's the ruler of the seas. Jinbe, Law and Big Mom herself single him out from the other Yonko. Doflamingo says he was the one who ruled the era. It was only after he died that the throne wars began.

So yeah, manga portrayal and confirmation is above vague novel statements. The Yonko could not overcome WB despite wanting to become the Pirate King for decades. Meanwhile WB never cared about supremacy and he was still known as the ruler and man closest to OP. There isn't much to argue over this.

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## LightningForce (Jul 25, 2021)

No he is not. Otherwise Roger crew would be able to best WB’s crew and wouldn’t need to sneak around BM’s territory to take a copy of her Poneglyph.

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## Perrin (Jul 25, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> No he is not. Otherwise Roger crew would be able to best WB’s crew and wouldn’t need to sneak around BM’s territory to take a copy of her Poneglyph.


Dressed up as a chess piece

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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jul 25, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> No he is not. Otherwise Roger crew would be able to best WB’s crew and wouldn’t need to *sneak around* *BM’s territory to take a copy of her Poneglyph.*


that's not what happened

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## Dead Precedence (Jul 25, 2021)

Why would wanking Ray put the admirals on a pedestal when an Old Ray stalemated Kizaru for a bit and of course a Prime Ray would be able to beat Kizaru?


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## Seraphoenix (Jul 26, 2021)

trance said:


> what about sengoku? he doesn't have garp's hype but roger still considered him a strong opponent


Roger said that Sengoku and Garp were more interesting than the fodder he was choking. Doesn't put them on the same level. Garp at least has Roger's statement about 'nearly killing each other countless times'.


truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> I don’t know how to link panels and I was ignoring you because you’re annoying and you seem not even to understand how stories work. You don’t need a panel to prove the story puts Roger on a pedestal. It’s not about someone in the story going “Roger would mid diff the yonko” that’s silly. Roger is the man almost every pirate in the story is chasing even your precious yonko. The main character is chasing him. I really don’t get how that’s not obvious. I guess if you want specific examples for your tier specialist autism when they’re trying to hype up whitebeard at mf one of the things that’s put along wb being referred to as the wsm is being able to match Roger. Not only that he matched wb when wb was even stronger. You also have chinjao calling the yonko silver medalists in comparison to Roger. So Roger is the gold medalist. Do you know what people stand on at medal ceremonies? Do you know what the gold medalist is put on in comparison to everyone?


If you don't have evidence  to back up what you say then shut the fuck up and move along. Don't get on a high horse if you haven't provided anything even vaguely linking your opinion with evidence.

That's how you evaluate stories. You base your opinion on material in the actual literature. You are the one who doesn't seem to understand how 'stories work'.

Show me panels putting Rayleigh at Yonko level, let alone above it as the OP suggests. Struggling to stalemate Kizaru, who backed down from Ben Beckmann isn't that impressive (Vivre card even confirms that Kizaru took Ben seriously, in case you are one of the trolls who thinks he just ignored him).

You are going on a tangent about Roger and WB when this thread is about Rayleigh. I guess in an effort to save face because you have nothing for Rayleigh.  Even if I took the bait, Roger after facing his greatest enemy was labelled a Great Pirate like all the Yonko. Newgate also had the Great Pirate title, he wasn't put on a higher level as a pirate by getting a higher title. Luffy's promise with Shanks is to give the hat back to Shanks when he becomes a 'Great Pirate'. Any gap between the Yonko and Roger would be very small. That's kind of the point. You get recognised as strongest in this manga if you can beat the Yonko.

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## Seraphoenix (Jul 26, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> Why would wanking Ray put the admirals on a pedestal when an Old Ray stalemated Kizaru for a bit and of course a Prime Ray would be able to beat Kizaru?


The starting point for them is that Yonko=Admirals. So given that Rayleigh stalemated Kizaru, you have to put Prime Rayleigh above the Yonko to make sense of that interaction. Prime Rayleigh is presumably with Roger and WB above the Yonko, to make sense of an admiral failing to get past him as an old man. 

Or you could go with the more logical Yonko>Admirals. Far less mental leaps needed.

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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jul 26, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> Roger said that Sengoku and Garp were more interesting than the fodder he was choking. Doesn't put them on the same level. Garp at least has Roger's statement about 'nearly killing each other countless times'.
> 
> If you don't have evidence  to back up what you say then shut the fuck up and move along. Don't get on a high horse if you haven't provided anything even vaguely linking your opinion with evidence.
> 
> ...


You said we want to put Roger on a pedestal I said the story does that’s why I went in a tangent about Roger you dolt


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## trance (Jul 26, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> Roger said that Sengoku and Garp were more interesting than the fodder he was choking. Doesn't put them on the same level.


i don't think roger would say that about sengoku if he was still only little more than glorified fodder to him as you seem to be implying

at that point, he would've said to just bring garp


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## TheWiggian (Jul 26, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> The biggest takeaway though is the fact that Rayleigh was confident that if he was younger, he'd be able to deal with Kizaru _and _a Shichibukai + Sentomaru and Pacifistas. I feel like only the *likes of the Yonko* or greater could fight an Admiral and still afford to multi-task.



No they couldn't. The strongest of them had his hands full with each one of them and needed commanderes to cover him. 
When he faced Aokiji he tried to get away from him and needed Jozu to cover him. 


*Spoiler*: __ 









He had an encounter with Kizaru and guess who of the two was multitasking? 


*Spoiler*: __ 













The other Yonks have yet to proof they can fight these monsters on equal ground unrestrained. Because the admirals had to hold back massively at MF, else the island would've followed god valley to the depths of the ocean.

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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 26, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> he starting point for them is that Yonko=Admirals





Seraphoenix said:


> Or you could go with the more logical Yonko>Admirals


what i posted in the op doesnt care for what one's position is on yonkos vs admirals


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## Freechoice (Jul 26, 2021)

Eos Nami confirmed stronger than Big Mom according to OP

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## TheWiggian (Jul 26, 2021)

Freechoice said:


> Eos Nami confirmed stronger than Big Mom according to OP



I don't see what's wrong with that.

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## Freechoice (Jul 27, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> I don't see what's wrong with that.



The difference between Nami and Luffy is fucking enormous. Luffy EoS could take on like 50 Big Mom's at once

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## MrPopo (Jul 27, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> Roger said that Sengoku and Garp were more interesting than the fodder he was choking. Doesn't put them on the same level. Garp at least has Roger's statement about 'nearly killing each other countless times'.
> 
> If you don't have evidence  to back up what you say then shut the fuck up and move along. Don't get on a high horse if you haven't provided anything even vaguely linking your opinion with evidence.
> 
> ...


Whitebeard mentions Sengoku along with Roger and Garp

*Spoiler*: __ 









Kong talks about How Sengoku and Garp are the two marines that lead on the frontline since rogers era

*Spoiler*: __ 







 

Viviver card states how their encounters with whitebeard and Roger  made them legends

*Spoiler*: __ 








Whitebeards introduction to mf he asks sengoku how many years it has been  showing familiarity between the two men. Since they are both marine and pirate they would have only gotten to know each other through fighting.  

*Spoiler*: __

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## MrPopo (Jul 27, 2021)

To stay on topic prime Rayleigh would be on same level as the Yonkou and whether he wins or loses would be extreme diff

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## Seraphoenix (Jul 28, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> You said we want to put Roger on a pedestal I said the story does that’s why I went in a tangent about Roger you dolt


And I asked you for evidence of some huge gap between him and other Great Pirates. You haven't been able to supply. PK btw is not a strictly strength title. Hell, Chinjao asks Luffy if he can surpass Roger's legend by beating admirals and Yonko. Implying Roger didn't do that to be PK. 

So next time sit your ass down if you have no evidence for your fanfics scrub. 


trance said:


> i don't think roger would say that about sengoku if he was still only little more than glorified fodder to him as you seem to be implying
> 
> at that point, he would've said to just bring garp


How do you get to "Little more than glorified fodder". Him being more interesting than fodder doesn't put him on the same level as Roger. There is a huge scale from fodder to Roger where Sengoku could be placed, like admiral level. 


xmysticgohanx said:


> what i posted in the op doesnt care for what one's position is on yonkos vs admirals


Actually it does. Reread my post on it. 


MrPopo said:


> Whitebeard mentions Sengoku along with Roger and Garp
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


-He mentions them because they were prominent marines. As far as we know there wasn't another admiral besides Sengoku at that stage (Zephyr wouldn't be on Oda's mind). 
-Yes they were on the front because there were no other admirals. In the current age there are more Great Pirates and more admirals. In a few years they will talk about the time of Shanks, Kaido, BM, Aokiji, Kizaru, Akainu etc . Doesn't mean they were all on the same level. Just the most prominent people of the opposing factions.   
-Getting your ass beat can make you a legend sure. 
-Yes they are familiar. This is why Sengoku was shitting himself every time WB flexed a muscle. He was terrified of the gura, likely because he was quaked in the past. When he saw BB get the gura he had vietnam flashbacks and decided to retire. 

Sengoku got put in bandages by BB at MF with Garp's backup. I'm not impressed. Unlike Rayleigh or Garp, there was no suggestion of a decline on his physical capabilities either.

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## MrPopo (Jul 28, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> -He mentions them because they were prominent marines. As far as we know there wasn't another admiral besides Sengoku at that stage (Zephyr wouldn't be on Oda's mind).


You're downplaying the portray of Whitebeard mentioning those two, Whitebeard wouldn't  have mentioned them if they were not formidable. Furthermore Odas comment about shiki in volume 55 in the SBS shows that it is nothing something as trivial  as being on opposing factions. 


> *D: Odacchi! Congratulations! They're doing another One Piece movie. But this time, it's your script, right? I'm really looking forward to it!! ...and, when I was watching the movie trailer on my computer I heard the word "Kinjishi" come up - but isn't that the flying pirate who broke out of jail 20 years ago that Sengoku mentioned in chapter 530!? There has to be some connection, right!?
> 
> O:* Yes. "Kinjishi". Actually, I really wanted to have his name come up in the scene where Shirohige talks to Shanks in volume 45. But I thought at the draft level that I was handing out too much information and confusing the readers, so I took it away - but in my mind, I have determined that he is one of the legendary pirates who played a big part during Roger's time. Though I didn't think I'd make a movie about him. In any case, "Kinjishi" escaped from Impel Down, and now that 20 years have passed, he's finally starting to make a move, and that's what the movie is about. There's an announcement on page 192.





Seraphoenix said:


> -Yes they were on the front because there were no other admirals. In the current age there are more Great Pirates and more admirals. In a few years they will talk about the time of Shanks, Kaido, BM, Aokiji, Kizaru, Akainu etc . Doesn't mean they were all on the same level. Just the most prominent people of the opposing factions.


Yes they are, Chinjaos and Luffys statements in Dressrosa confirms it

*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 










Seraphoenix said:


> -Getting your ass beat can make you a legend sure.


Your bais is getting in the way of reasoning, both Whitebeard and Roger hold respect for these two marines it's nothing as simple getting whooped.


Seraphoenix said:


> -Yes they are familiar. This is why Sengoku was shitting himself every time WB flexed a muscle. He was terrified of the gura, likely because he was quaked


It was already stated why Sengoku was terrified of the gura it has the power to destroy the world

*Spoiler*: __ 










Seraphoenix said:


> in the past. When he saw BB get the gura he had vietnam flashbacks and decided to retire.


We already know why sengoku decided to retire it was so the new generation could lead the navy.

*Spoiler*: __ 










Seraphoenix said:


> Sengoku got put in bandages by BB at MF with Garp's backup. I'm not impressed. Unlike Rayleigh or Garp, there was no suggestion of a decline on his physical capabilities either.


Every single old character that he have been introduced has had their strength wakened by age: Garp, Rayliegh, Whitebeard and Chinjao. Why would Sengoku be an exception to this?

Also unlike the characters mentioned above Sengokus fight was offpanneled we never got to see Sengoku comment on his current strength condition.

Furthermore Akainus comment to whitebeard when he has his heart attack affirms that age affects everyone, Sengoku wouldnt be the exception.

*Spoiler*: __

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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jul 28, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> And I asked you for evidence of some huge gap between him and other Great Pirates. You haven't been able to supply. PK btw is not a strictly strength title. Hell, Chinjao asks Luffy if he can surpass Roger's legend by beating admirals and Yonko. Implying Roger didn't do that to be PK.
> 
> So next time sit your ass down if you have no evidence for your fanfics scrub.
> 
> ...


What is sufficient evidence? I’ve provided you with the narrative being everyone chasing Roger, your precious yonko included, and the main character. In a shonen…. Then we have a character belittling the yonko in comparison to Roger. Why is he doing that? That they’re not as lucky as him? Seems strange in a manga where fighting strength is so important.. If by evidence you mean something like garp saying “Roger would low-high diff you if he were around today kaido!!” because you’re right I don’t have anything like that.

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## Fujitora (Jul 28, 2021)

Turrin said:


> Raleigh has nothing to do with this; what’s being said here is that the PK is > Yonko; so Jinbei can’t tremble in the presence of a Yonko when he wishes to be a crew mate of someone  stronger then a Yonko


Fixed it for you.


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## Fujitora (Jul 28, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> That's a lot of fancy words. Let's check the manga instead.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


You said that WB was the strongest but then say that Rayleigh was stronger when it fits you.


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## Eustathios (Jul 28, 2021)

OniKaido said:


> You said that WB was the strongest but then say that Rayleigh was stronger when it fits you.


I said prime Rayleigh would be stronger than old WB. WB was indeed the strongest as per canon, but at that point Rayleigh was old too.


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## trance (Jul 28, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> Him being more interesting than fodder doesn't put him on the same level as Roger.


i never said it did?

all i said was that roger considered him a strong opponent or at least someone roger wouldn't be able to wash


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## Perrin (Jul 28, 2021)

Freechoice said:


> The difference between Nami and Luffy is fucking enormous. Luffy EoS could take on like 50 Big Mom's at once


If Luffy can take on 50 big moms EOS and nami can only take 1, thats still a big difference.


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## Freechoice (Jul 28, 2021)

Perrin said:


> If Luffy can take on 50 big moms EOS and nami can only take 1, thats still a big difference.



I think you misunderstand my point


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## Ezekjuninor (Jul 28, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> Why would wanking Ray put the admirals on a pedestal when an Old Ray stalemated Kizaru for a bit and of course a Prime Ray would be able to beat Kizaru?


Because if prime Rayleigh was equal to or weaker than the yonkou then it would pretty much admit Yonkou>admirals. If you read the posts not a single admiral fan will tell you Kaidou/BM is equal to or stronger than prime Rayleigh.

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## Ezekjuninor (Jul 28, 2021)

I'd put Prime Rayleigh at yonkou level equal to BM and slightly weaker than Kaidou. Shanks is a toss-up as he's unknown. I don't have any reason to put Rayleigh any higher than that and absolutely no reason to put him above Kaidou. Thinking Kaidou wouldn't be able to deal with fodder while fighting a Kizaru who isn't using awakening is laughable when his feats blow him out of the water.

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## Dead Precedence (Jul 28, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Because if prime Rayleigh was equal to or weaker than the yonkou then it would pretty much admit Yonkou>admirals. If you read the posts not a single admiral fan will tell you Kaidou/BM is equal to or stronger than prime Rayleigh.


I guess, I just figured that an admiral fan wouldn’t want Ray to be that much stronger than his old self since that would mean he isn’t guaranteed to beat Kizaru in his prime then.


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## Seraphoenix (Jul 30, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> You're downplaying the portray of Whitebeard mentioning those two, Whitebeard wouldn't  have mentioned them if they were not formidable. Furthermore Odas comment about shiki in volume 55 in the SBS shows that it is nothing something as trivial  as being on opposing factions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WB mentioned them as they were the primary navy men on the frontlines. So what? What does that tell us about their strength in comparison to Great Pirates?

Chinjao and Luffy's statements confirm nothing. First of all these are opinions from characters in the manga. Just because they say something, doesn't mean it's true. Secondly to be PK means to be the freest on the sea according to Roger and Luffy. Who restricts your freedom? Pirates and marines. Who are the most prominent of those two groups? Yonko and admirals. That doesn't mean they are on the same level. Thirdly, Dressrosa  Luffy and Chinjao are weaker than admirals and Yonko, so consider them obstacles to be PK (To be free). BM who is stronger than any admiral considers only other Yonko as obstacles:


Fourth, we can look at how other characters view the sides. Doflamingo was terrified of fighting Kaido but planned to kill Fujitora. Kaido called him weak, while Kuzan said multiple admirals should be sent for Doflamingo. Jack clearly shows deference to Kaido and sweats in front of BM, while he had no fear of attacking a ship with an admiral and former fleet admiral on board. Izo told Luffy to not let one admiral stop him from advancing at MF, while Marco told the whole crew to stand back from Shanks. Most of the OP world don't really care that Kuzan is allied with BB, while the marines shat themselves at the thought of Kaido and BM joining forces.

Oda has gone out of his way to have people like Rayleigh and Garp comment on how age affected their abilities. BM is in her 70s and presumably still going strong. There is no evidence that Sengoku was in a state of decline at MF.

All you really have are comments about prominent marines. That doesn't speak to their actual combat level in comparison to the top pirates. Kaido was there from the Rocks era and no marine made his list of those who can compete with him.


truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> What is sufficient evidence? I’ve provided you with the narrative being everyone chasing Roger, your precious yonko included, and the main character. In a shonen…. Then we have a character belittling the yonko in comparison to Roger. Why is he doing that? That they’re not as lucky as him? Seems strange in a manga where fighting strength is so important.. If by evidence you mean something like garp saying “Roger would low-high diff you if he were around today kaido!!” because you’re right I don’t have anything like that.


So you actually have nothing besides a title that isn't just a strength title but requires things like poneglyphs and someone able to read them? Thanks. Who did Roger beat to become PK? Tell me. I was so surprised at your condescension and thought you must have something actually substantial to be that arrogant.


trance said:


> i never said it did?
> 
> all i said was that roger considered him a strong opponent or at least someone roger wouldn't be able to wash


Roger said they would be more interesting than fodder. That doesn't mean he doesn't wash Sengoku.

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## trance (Jul 30, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> That doesn't mean he doesn't wash Sengoku.


again why even bother namedropping him like that if he still washes him? 

"you lot are boring, next time bring garp or sengoku even tho sengoku ain't shit and i can fold his ass as well"

oda should've just wrote that if we're going by your interpretation of that scene

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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 30, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> If you read the posts not a single admiral fan will tell you Kaidou/*BM* is equal to or stronger than prime Rayleigh.



Can’t imagine why, considering the hilarious legendary treatment Oda has given her.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Uchiha Maddy (Jul 30, 2021)

Yes he should be above the overhyped fodder that is Whitebeard


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jul 30, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> So you actually have nothing besides a title that isn't just a strength title but requires things like poneglyphs and someone able to read them? Thanks. Who did Roger beat to become PK? Tell me. I was so surprised at your condescension and thought you must have something actually substantial to be that arrogant.



So you think that the man who everyone is chasing in a manga largely structured around fighting ability is nothing special strength wise?? If we’re looking for explicit evidence since they matter so much how do you square Roger=prime wb and then old sick whitebeard>yonko with Roger=yonko or even Roger>=yonko?


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## Klarionan (Aug 1, 2021)

I knew a fusion of admiral and Rayleigh fanboys must be ugly, but this is just disgusting, and just exposes this part of the forum again as an absolute joke

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 3 | Dislike 1


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## Lmao (Aug 1, 2021)

Freechoice said:


> Luffy EoS could take on like 50 Big Mom's at once


I agree on Luffy-Nami gap but

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Fel1x (Aug 2, 2021)

is this even still discussed?

aside from trolls that claim Ray=Yonko or Ray>Yonko, I'm really worried about people who really think so

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Mihawk (Aug 2, 2021)

Fuck the Yonko

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Informative 1 | Friendly 1 | Optimistic 1


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## AmitDS (Aug 2, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> *Fuck* the Yonko


Big Mom has entered the chat.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Lewd 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 2, 2021)

Fel1x said:


> aside from trolls that claim Ray=Yonko


Yes, how dare people suggest that the Pirate King’s First Mate, Zoro’s counterpart in the Roger Pirates, an infamous pirate who was still capable of fighting an Admiral and swimming through the Calm Belt even after two decades of retirement, could be on par with the Yonko.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Mihawk (Aug 2, 2021)

The hype for Prime Ray is huge. 

All we really need is a flashback of him fighting. We didn't even get that in Oden's. 

Will laugh when Ray is shown to be > Yankers

Reactions: Like 2 | Useful 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Freechoice (Aug 2, 2021)

Prime Ray stronger than Mihawk

Shanks stronger than Mihawk definitely would bet $100 

Prime Ray at least Yonko level

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 3, 2021)

Fel1x said:


> is this even still discussed?
> 
> aside from trolls that claim Ray=Yonko or Ray>Yonko, I'm really worried about people who really think so


Prime Ray > Yonko is the truth


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## Fel1x (Aug 3, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Prime Ray > Yonko is the truth


after all you have Zoro on avatar

Reactions: Friendly 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Fel1x (Aug 3, 2021)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> Yes, how dare people suggest that the Pirate King’s First Mate, Zoro’s counterpart in the Roger Pirates, an infamous pirate who was still capable of fighting an Admiral and swimming through the Calm Belt even after two decades of retirement, could be on par with the Yonko.


oh, so you must be clash=fight guy. yeah. I remember that huge battle against Kizaru that lasted for days, shacked whole island and was till last breath.

but seriously, this clash didn't tell anything about whether Ray can even fight Kizaru for even 10 minutes before being wasted. its free to your imagination to assume what would happen to Ray in a full fight

oh, swimming feat. guess you have really nothing no prove your idea. title (which doesn't mean shit), clash+swimming ability, lol


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## Blanco (Aug 3, 2021)

an unimpressed ray stalemating a admiral at old age is much greater evidence his prime was above yonko and admirals

Reactions: Agree 1


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