# Where do we rank Tobirama?



## Rob (Aug 21, 2013)

Location: War Battle Ground
Distance: 300m Diameter
S.O.M.: IC, Intent to Kill
Knowledge: Manga

1. Strongest person Tobirama can beat? 
2. Weakest person that can defeat Tobirama? 

I want to say that he can give people like Itachi, Jiraiya, Kabuto, Onoki or anyone else around their general level  a run for their money. 

But I don't know anything. 

Discuss.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 21, 2013)

He seems very strong, but as of now, he is a bit overrated. His Suitons are nigh non-existent, and his FTG lacks the range of Minato's. That being said, the strongest person he can beat is probably someone around Itachi's level, or the solo king himself. Weakest person that can beat him? MS Obito seems like a good choice.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 21, 2013)

Currently i would say he is in the tier with KCM naruto and people of similar power.

The strongest person he can beat...eh maybe someone like Itachi(mainly because of his anti uchiha moveset which include sensing, FTG and water moves) but any further than that and he starts to lose because he lacks the feats to compete.

As for who can beat him. I would personally say KCM naruto with access to his SM clones can beat him. Top tier sensing to help defend against FTG somewhat(he was not even overwhelmed by FTG movement this chapter), Chakra arms rasengan variants and tricks like frog kata, clone feints/transformations and frog summon attacks wins it for naruto.


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## Ennoia (Aug 21, 2013)

He should be about equal with A's dad, Mu, the Mizukage, and Gaara's dad. He could beat but also lose to any of these people so it can go either way but he should be around their level. By hype he should be top tier considering he claimed to be able to take down Madara but we all know how claims go.


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## Jizznificent (Aug 21, 2013)

even though he's gotten some panel lately, he's still one of the most difficult characters to gauge strength wise. his capabilities are still vague; he is the type of character i feel he has a lot more to offer in terms of jutsu (but feel that we may never get to see them just like with kakashi ).

however looking at his current feats, hype and portrayal i would say that he is in the same tier as minato, more or less.


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 21, 2013)

Based on feats the strongest person he could beat is maybe MS Sasuke and that's being kind considering we don't know what Ms abilities he had but we do know Tobirama was a capable of beating  a perfect MS user

Based on hype I would say as strong as KCM Naruto or Danzo w/Shisui eye

Because of the nature of his abilities I don't think many can beat him outside of Minato, Naruto, I would say there weakest person that has a shot is Itachi if he plays it right .


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## Turrin (Aug 21, 2013)

It's hard to place a character whose still in the process of accumulating feats and hasn't been fleshed out fully yet.
For example Kishi is now saying the stuff Tobirama showed in Part I is a mere fraction of his power, yet despite that he was able to create a Water Dragon with a single hand-seal that was only surpassed in size by those with Water sources and the Mizukage's Water Dragon. Heck even now Kishi had Tobirama say he wasn't brought back at completely full power. So who knows how good Tobirama's full power Suitons are, to give one example. We also don't know the number of or the specific shinobi Tobirama could summmon with Edo Tensei. Tobirama even suggests he had more strategies with his Tensei than just Tandem Explosive Tags, so there is another example of a facet of Tobirama's character, which has yet to be fully fleshed out. Than we haven't seen his Kenjutsu skill or Hiraishingiri, to name two other things.

So I can't rank the guy properly at this moment. As for whose the strongest that he can possibly beat going off current feats, I'd say he has all the tools necessary to potentially beat MS Obito, though granted at the moment it seems like he'd have more difficulty than Minato if he managed to pull it off. 

As for the weakest that could beat him, well perhaps Jiraiya would have a chance here given his familiarity with  FTG, most likely Edo Tensei, and the fact that he's likely to know a good deal about Tobirama being the student of Tobirama's student and of course Tobirama being the Nindaime Hokage. He also possesses high proficiency with Doton to counter Tobirama's Suiton & his own KB to take on Tobirama's. J-man also has a number of binding Jutsu and Toad Gourd Barrier Seal to deal with the Tensei zombies. Plus Shima may be able to sense Tobirama's chakra in the seal markings he creates, allowing J-man to keep track of them & in SM I doubt J-man would fall far behind Tobirama in physical attributes.

So yeah I'd say J-man is the weakest character I see Tobirama potentially loosing to, but that's not to say J-man's odds are all that good.


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## crisler (Aug 22, 2013)

hmm...

i would say tobiramas' maxmimu level is minato nagato itachi tier. personally, i'd say the latter three are stronger than tobirama, although there are certain circumstances where one may lose to the expected weaker one.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 22, 2013)

Tobirama seems to be placed as the next closest person to his brother, barring Madara.  So within the top 4, portrayal wise.  

He even fought equally with, and then defeated, Madara's brother, who was explicitly Madara's pre-EMS equal, and that's pretty strong.  Recently, he even seems to be showing as above KCM Minato.  Normal Minato vs unrestricted Itachi was seen as a close match by most people, and opinion changed to Minato's victory after he got Naruto's final powerup on top of himself, so being better or equal to that puts him where I said.

I won't bother with feats, since it's all pre-mature.  His jutsus keep rolling out, and even this last chapter says that he can use the S/T barrier like Minato's to warp a bijuudama.  He's the kage that's never had a showing, so he's getting more feats, and his jutsu and style and skill will keep rolling in until he's put to pasture by Kishi.


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> His jutsus keep rolling out, and even this last chapter says that he can use the S/T barrier like Minato's to warp a bijuudama.  He's the kage that's never had a showing, so he's getting more feats, and his jutsu and style and skill will keep rolling in until he's put to pasture by Kishi.


Where does the chapter say this. Tobirama was talking about physical touching and than warping the bombs, not the barrier, which Minato couldn't even perform right now w/o Hand-seals.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Aug 22, 2013)

Tobirama is a mid tier kage level shinobi above Hirusen sarutobi, but below base hashirama who is already below mInato who=SM hashirama.

The strongest shinobi  tobirama can beat is Kakashi...

The weakest shinobi that can beat tobirama is Kinaku with the help of 20 fodder shinobi lol...


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## Bonly (Aug 22, 2013)

I rank him on the same general level as Itachi and I the strongest I can see him beating would be Itachi(50/50).


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## Mayweather (Aug 22, 2013)

1. Alive Itachi (50/50)

2. Jiraiya


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> It's hard to place a character whose still in the process of accumulating feats and hasn't been fleshed out fully yet.



I agree with this...

However, in my opinion theres only a handfull of characters that would be stronger then him. I have said since part one that Tobirama would turn out to be stronger then the Sannin and Itachi which is pretty much true at this time

Stronger:
Hashirama
Madara
Kabuto
Naruto
Juubito
Obito


Minato: When its all said and done he will be stronger

Everyone else falls slightly behind


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 22, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I rank him on the same general level as Itachi and I the strongest I can see him beating would be Itachi(50/50).



I agree with this, his on Itachi's level and above Minato.


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## ShadowReaper (Aug 22, 2013)

1. Sage Kabuto 
2. Current Minato, if he gets KM and BM.


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## Ƶero (Aug 22, 2013)

It goes like this in order of strength.

Alive Minato
Tobirama
Itachi


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## Trojan (Aug 22, 2013)

the stronger one Tobirama can beat is for now itachi. 

the weakest one can beat Tobirama is Kinkaku.


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## J★J♥ (Aug 22, 2013)

Depends on situation. 
I'll put him above Hashirama if he has prep time (2-4 days)

Little below Hashirama without Prep time. 

Still above Itachi and Minato in any situation thought.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 22, 2013)

Unfortunately, it is still too early to rank Tobirama properly and I am afraid even when he "dies" or is sealed, we still will have an incomplete picture of his power. Here are the reasons why I think we will not see his true power:

1. He is currently not at full power as he said
2. He does not have any edo tensei zombies so we won't see his edo tactics

However, having said that I believe that based on what we have seen and what we can infer from other panels, we should be able to rank him temporarily in the High Kage Tier. Here is how I approach it. To properly rate him, we need to consider the below facts:

1. Hirashin
2. Edo Tensei
3. Sensing Skills
4. Senju DNA Buffs
5. Battle Strategies / Intelligence

Regardless of how Tobirama uses hiraishin, this jutsu is one of the most broken in the manga. Tobirama has shown the ability to use his clones to swap out of a situation with hiraishin and it goes without saying that he probably did the same thing with edo zombies. Even with the limited showing, hiraishin gokun mawashi + edo tensei is pretty broken. Furthermore, even assuming that he could summon weak edo tensei zombies (let's say around Haku level), they would be more dangerous than Kabuto's zombies because Tobirama can warp them in and out of situations and he uses them for explosions, which is more dangerous than just them using their own jutsus. 

The rest of the considerations are pretty self-explanatory. Sensing skills are pretty valuable for defense but coupled with hiraishin, they make hitting Tobirama a lot more difficult. His Senju DNA and chakra means that he would be able to spam jutsus quite effortelessly. Finally, his battle intelligence has been shown to be high up there with the likes of Kakashi.

Taking all the above into consideration, I have to conclude that he is definitely stronger than the likes of Gaara, Raikagenaught, etc. Given the number of broken abilities he has and the fact that he stacks other very useful activities on top of those, I see him almost always beating the likes of Muu, Jiraiya and Itachi. 

To answer the OP

Strongest Person He could Defeat: Kirabi (who I think is stronger than Jiraiya / Itachi)

Weakest Person He could Lose To: SM Jiraiya


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## Ennoia (Aug 22, 2013)

I feel like im obligated to ask what makes you think he can beat B and under what stipulations.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 22, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> I feel like im obligated to ask what makes you think he can beat B and under what stipulations.



I am assuming this question is directed towards me. I feel that Tobirama can defeat Kirabi because of their respective jutsus. Kirabi's jutus are either projectiles (bijuu bombs, raiton projectiles) or taijutsu based. Kirabi will be hard pressed to hit Tobirama with a projectile because he is a sensor and he uses hiraishin. This combination makes it pretty much impossible to hit him with a projectile unless it is one traveling at ridiculous speeds. In my humble judgement, Kirabi does not have any such projectiles. Now, the only other thing Kirabi could do is engage him in CQC with nin-taijutsu. This again would be pretty lethal for almost anyone but again in the case of Tobirama he can always teleport away from his attacks or swap out with a clone through goshun mawashi. So, all in all Kirabi's advantages won't help him. His large chakra is useless, his projectile attacks will be hard pressed to land and his nintaijutsu won't be as lethal. 

Now, given the way Kirabi fights (engaging casually in CQC with Sasuke and Itachi), tagging him with a hirashin marker will be quite easy for Tobirama. He can do this directly or use a clone that would take a hit and place the marker. Once the marker is on Kirabi, he is not immune to suprise attacks. IF he makes the mistake of transforming out of bijuu mode (which I think he would since the bijuudama won't kill edo tensei zombies or hit Tobirama due to hirashin), he could easily be killed with Gojō Kibaku Fuda


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Where does the chapter say this. Tobirama was talking about physical touching and than warping the bombs, not the barrier, which Minato couldn't even perform right now w/o Hand-seals.



Nooo.  Don't make me....

I took Minato's not being able to warp two without marking to mean he can't perform his bijuu deflectio without hand seals, so he's stuck on touch warp mode.

But Tobirama was going to warp two bijuudama, so he could do that.

Grabbing a bijudama with your bare hands and warping it just seems more crazy.


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Nooo.  Don't make me....
> 
> I took Minato's not being able to warp two without marking to mean he can't perform his bijuu deflectio without hand seals, so he's stuck on touch warp mode.
> 
> ...



Tobirama grabbed a bomb and warped it 2 chapters ago. 

Tobirama explained multiple times that he could only warp 1 in that chapter.

The S-T Barrier uses an S-T Kunai as a conduit, hence it's probably only something Minato can do.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama grabbed a bomb and warped it 2 chapters ago.
> 
> Tobirama explained multiple times that he could only warp 1 in that chapter.
> 
> The S-T Barrier uses an S-T Kunai as a conduit, hence it's probably only something Minato can do.



1. Tobirama explained only once that both he AND Minato could only warp one bijuudama at a time. However, when shodai could not help them, he said that the only other option was warp all four bijuudama out of the barrier. He asked Minato if he could warp two. That leaves another two for him to warp. He can't possibly say that the only solution is to warp all four at the barrier and then make plans only for three. Your argument is not very convincing
2. S-T barrier does not require a kunai. It requires hand seals and a hiraishin marker. Minato places his markers on kunais, so I don't see how not having kunais means Tobirama can't use that jutsu. I am of the opinion that Tobirama was going to use a ST barrier but I believe he uses them differently from Minato


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## Ennoia (Aug 22, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> I am assuming this question is directed towards me. I feel that Tobirama can defeat Kirabi because of their respective jutsus. Kirabi's jutus are either projectiles (bijuu bombs, raiton projectiles) or taijutsu based. Kirabi will be hard pressed to hit Tobirama with a projectile because he is a sensor and he uses hiraishin. This combination makes it pretty much impossible to hit him with a projectile unless it is one traveling at ridiculous speeds. In my humble judgement, Kirabi does not have any such projectiles. Now, the only other thing Kirabi could do is engage him in CQC with nin-taijutsu. This again would be pretty lethal for almost anyone but again in the case of Tobirama he can always teleport away from his attacks or swap out with a clone through goshun mawashi. So, all in all Kirabi's advantages won't help him. His large chakra is useless, his projectile attacks will be hard pressed to land and his nintaijutsu won't be as lethal.
> 
> Now, given the way Kirabi fights (engaging casually in CQC with Sasuke and Itachi), tagging him with a hirashin marker will be quite easy for Tobirama. He can do this directly or use a clone that would take a hit and place the marker. Once the marker is on Kirabi, he is not immune to suprise attacks. IF he makes the mistake of transforming out of bijuu mode (which I think he would since the bijuudama won't kill edo tensei zombies or hit Tobirama due to hirashin), he could easily be killed with Gojō Kibaku Fuda



The first problem with this is that not all of his attacks are projectiles and when he uses shroud nothing Tobirama can do will be able to injure B. When B realizes that his weapons are useless against Tobirama he will go full and destroy everything in the area with 8 Coils and should Tobirama use Edo, B can at this point seal them and probably Tobirama as well. From what I gather the basis of your argument hinges on FTG but 8 Coils ruins that and when in Shroud nothing Tobirama can do will injure B. I doubt Tobirama would even be able to effectively use FTG considering B reacted to Minato using FTG twice.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 22, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> The first problem with this is that not all of his attacks are projectiles and when he uses shroud nothing Tobirama can do will be able to injure B. When B realizes that his weapons are useless against Tobirama he will go full and destroy everything in the area with 8 Coils and should Tobirama use Edo, B can at this point seal them and probably Tobirama as well. From what I gather the basis of your argument hinges on FTG but 8 Coils ruins that and when in Shroud nothing Tobirama can do will injure B. I doubt Tobirama would even be able to effectively use FTG considering B reacted to Minato using FTG twice.



1. Did you read my comments? I ask because you said that not all of B's attacks are projectiles. I find this odd because I clearly said that his attacks are either projectile OR nintaijutsu. The other attack you showed still cannot touch Tobirama when he uses hiraishin
2. You seem to think that Tobirama who has hiraishin will just stand there for Kirabi to use a slow ass ink sealing jutsu. Tobirama can put markers on his zombies and Kirabi will find it impossible to put ink on them. 
3. Kirabi engages in CQC first and then transforms later, this means that he will get his ass tagged quite easily. At that point, 8 coils won't do shit
4. 8 coils destroys trees, it does not remove hiraishin markers.


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## Ennoia (Aug 22, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Did you read my comments? I ask because you said that not all of B's attacks are projectiles. I find this odd because I clearly said that his attacks are either projectile OR nintaijutsu. The other attack you showed still cannot touch Tobirama when he uses hiraishin
> 2. You seem to think that Tobirama who has hiraishin will just stand there for Kirabi to use a slow ass ink sealing jutsu. Tobirama can put markers on his zombies and Kirabi will find it impossible to put ink on them.
> 3. Kirabi engages in CQC first and then transforms later, this means that he will get his ass tagged quite easily. At that point, 8 coils won't do shit
> 4. 8 coils destroys trees, it does not remove hiraishin markers.



Bijuu mode is not nintaijutsu, I left out nintaijutsu because that is almost specifically speaking about his shrouded attacks which are useless. At least with projectiles he has a chance at hitting Tobirama so I figured speaking about attacking in shroud is pointless.

You say it cannot touch him because he can use FTG but he can only teleport to the seals in the area and 8 coils clears out the entire area so where is he going to teleport to in order to get out of the blast radius if his seals are inside the radius?

All of Obito's Pain bodies were incapacitated by 8 Coils so how is Tobirama not going to be out cold to worry about preventing B from sealing his incapacitated Edo? How does B being tagged by FTG make 8 Coils useless?

8 Coils does not have to clear away the markers, the attack area is so large that Tobirama will not have a place to escape to which is the point. If Tobirama does not have a place to teleport to then there is no reason why he will not be out cold.


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## Turrin (Aug 23, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Tobirama explained only once that both he AND Minato could only warp one bijuudama at a time. However, when shodai could not help them, he said that the only other option was warp all four bijuudama out of the barrier. He asked Minato if he could warp two. That leaves another two for him to warp. He can't possibly say that the only solution is to warp all four at the barrier and then make plans only for three. Your argument is not very convincing
> 2. S-T barrier does not require a kunai. It requires hand seals and a hiraishin marker. Minato places his markers on kunais, so I don't see how not having kunais means Tobirama can't use that jutsu. I am of the opinion that Tobirama was going to use a ST barrier but I believe he uses them differently from Minato


I'm not going to waste my time explaining something that was stated by Tobirama himself as his limit in the chapter.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 23, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Bijuu mode is not nintaijutsu, I left out nintaijutsu because that is almost specifically speaking about his shrouded attacks which are useless. At least with projectiles he has a chance at hitting Tobirama so I figured speaking about attacking in shroud is pointless.
> 
> You say it cannot touch him because he can use FTG but he can only teleport to the seals in the area and 8 coils clears out the entire area so where is he going to teleport to in order to get out of the blast radius if his seals are inside the radius?
> 
> ...



1. Kirabi will be tagged on his person because he always engages in cqc combat
2. Tobirama can jump to a marker in Konoha (he has one on the hokage mountain) and come back wherever his his marker will be moved once B stops turning. However, because b engages in taijutsu casually the marker will be on him



Turrin said:


> I'm not going to waste my time explaining something that was stated by Tobirama himself as his limit in the chapter.



You are not considering the fact that Tobirama changed his mind. He said Minato could only teleport one bomb then said they had teleport all four and asked Minato to teleport two. Seems clear to me that you are saying Tobirama said the only option is to teleport 4 bombs but made plans for three which is retarded


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 23, 2013)

I would say above Tsunade and at a tie with Hiruzen, he's faster with Hiraishin but it seems he lacks the power to follow through with destructive force that either Sage Naruto or Hashirama have displayed. He's like Minato, mostly speed but not enough brute force/power.


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## ThunderCunt (Aug 23, 2013)

Jizznificent said:


> even though he's gotten some panel lately, he's still one of the most difficult characters to gauge strength wise. his capabilities are still vague; he is the type of character i feel he has a lot more to offer in terms of jutsu (but feel that we may never get to see them just like with kakashi ).
> 
> however looking at his current feats, hype and portrayal i would say that he is in the same tier as minato, more or less.



QFT

Infact, no one knows what is Minato's element affinity, or if he even have any jutsu to counter uchihaahaas


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 23, 2013)

Minato > Tobirama > Jiraiya

Between Minato/Jiraiya, I'd say...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 23, 2013)

Strongest Tobirama can beat... Hebi Sauce.

Weakest he can lose to... Hidan.


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## Dominus (Aug 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Weakest he can lose to... Hidan.



Enlighten me.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 23, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> Enlighten me.



gets scratched and dies ?


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## Dominus (Aug 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> gets scratched and dies ?



If only it was that easy... even if gets his blood, Tobirama can place a FTG mark on him and I'm pretty sure Tobirama can teleport to Hidan before he can make that symbol on the ground, even if he makes the symbol, Tobirama can push him out of the circle with Suiton: Suiryūdan no Jutsu. I'm not even sure how is Hidan even going to get his blood when Tobirama can use Suiton: Suijinheki, Hiraishin, he can also switch places with a clone through Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu or he can just blow him up with Gojō Kibaku Fuda.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 23, 2013)

He's about as strong as the likes of Kakashi and Tsunade, but below shinobi like Itachi, Minato etc. In terms of tiers, I'd say he's Mid Kage level​​


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## Senjuclan (Aug 23, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> He's about as strong as the likes of Kakashi and Tsunade, but below shinobi like Itachi, Minato etc. In terms of tiers, I'd say he's Mid Kage level​​



As strong as Tsunade? 

Tobirama is a couple tiers above Tsunade. He outclasses her in everything. He is a full tier above Kakashi as well.


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## Turrin (Aug 23, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> You are not considering the fact that Tobirama changed his mind. He said Minato could only teleport one bomb then said they had teleport all four and asked Minato to teleport two. Seems clear to me that you are saying Tobirama said the only option is to teleport 4 bombs but made plans for three which is retarded


It's retarded that Tobirama didn't just use KB. The whole chapter was retarded, with a bunch of lame excuses for why the alliance couldn't deal with Tree + Barrier, so that we could get to Father - Son - Bro - Fist, being the only way to deal with the situation. So yeah Tobiama's words making no-sense does not surprise me, because half the chapter made no-sense.

The bottom line is there is no reason to think Tobirama has FTG - S/T Barrier at this point and time. And even if for some retarded reason he realized he was wrong about what he said a few seconds ago multiple times and could teleport 1 more Bijuu Bomb suddenly, that doesn't mean he can use S/T Barrier. At best it would mean he maybe remembered he has Fing KB.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 23, 2013)

Turrin said:


> It's retarded that Tobirama didn't just use KB. The whole chapter was retarded, with a bunch of lame excuses for why the alliance couldn't deal with Tree + Barrier, so that we could get to Father - Son - Bro - Fist, being the only way to deal with the situation. So yeah Tobiama's words making no-sense does not surprise me, because half the chapter made no-sense.
> 
> The bottom line is there is no reason to think Tobirama has FTG - S/T Barrier at this point and time. And even if for some retarded reason he realized he was wrong about what he said a few seconds ago multiple times and could teleport 1 more Bijuu Bomb suddenly, that doesn't mean he can use S/T Barrier. At best it would mean he maybe remembered he has Fing KB.



I won't belabor the point. I think the only possible explanation is that he was going to use a barrier. KB as a means of warping the bomb does not make sense because he would take himself out of battlefield without having placed marker to come back to. 

At any rate, as long as you agree that you cannot cling to what Tobirama said initially, I won't argue the point further. You are entitled to your opinion


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 23, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> He's about as strong as the likes of Kakashi and Tsunade, but below shinobi like Itachi, Minato etc. In terms of tiers, I'd say he's Mid Kage level​​


Both Tobirama and Kakashi are at least a tier above Tsunade in overall power. Tobirama is probably 2 or 3 tiers above her, but I have already debated Tsunade's power before, so I digress.


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## Turrin (Aug 23, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> I won't belabor the point. I think the only possible explanation is that he was going to use a barrier. KB as a means of warping the bomb does not make sense because he would take himself out of battlefield without having placed marker to come back to.
> 
> At any rate, as long as you agree that you cannot cling to what Tobirama said initially, I won't argue the point further. You are entitled to your opinion


He has the marker on Obito, Minato, and had more than enough time to put his hand on the ground and create another maker during all that non-sense that when on in the chapter. Also why would he even need to leave the battlefield if he has KB do it for him?


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## joshhookway (Aug 23, 2013)

Tobirama can beat Hashirama with edo tensei and FTG.


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## Ennoia (Aug 23, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Kirabi will be tagged on his person because he always engages in cqc combat


How does B get casually tagged by Tobirama when Itachi could not engage B in CQC? Why does it matter if he gets tagged when he knows of FTG and reacted to Minato twice?



> 2. Tobirama can jump to a marker in Konoha (he has one on the hokage mountain) and come back wherever his his marker will be moved once B stops turning. However, because b engages in taijutsu casually the marker will be on him


Prove he can teleport that far from any other place besides when he is in Konoha. Its a lazy argument to say he is in Kumo for example and teleports to Konoha and back during a fight.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 23, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> As strong as Tsunade?
> 
> Tobirama is a couple tiers above Tsunade. He outclasses her in everything. He is a full tier above Kakashi as well.



I don't think he's a full tier above Kakashi, but perhaps half a tier is more likely, he still doesn't have the feats to back that claim up. He like Minato are speedsters and haven't demonstrated any raw power as of yet.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 24, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> How does B get casually tagged by Tobirama when Itachi could not engage B in CQC? Why does it matter if he gets tagged when he knows of FTG and reacted to Minato twice?
> 
> Prove he can teleport that far from any other place besides when he is in Konoha. Its a lazy argument to say he is in Kumo for example and teleports to Konoha and back during a fight.



1. Itachi did engage him in CQC and retreated. I am not sure which manga you have been reading
2. Itachi is not relevant to the debate. Tobirama only needs to touch him for him to put tags on him. He can use a clone to accomplish this
3. Minato does not fight the same way Tobirama does. Hiraishingiri will be more lethal as Kirabi won't know what hit him
4. Prove he can't teleport to Konoha. The whole idea of space-time teleportation is that distance does not matter because one can travel through a portal to anywhere he has a marker. The databook confirms this when it gives the range of jutsu as all ranges and says that it allows long distance travel in an instance. If believing the author makes me lazy, hey I will roll with it and be lazy and right than be wrong


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> I don't think he's a full tier above Kakashi, but perhaps half a tier is more likely, he still doesn't have the feats to back that claim up. He like Minato are speedsters and haven't demonstrated any raw power as of yet.


Tandem Explosive Tags is a-lot of Raw Power.  You also don't need a-lot of raw power as most enemies will go down to Kunai stab or sword slash, if it lands.


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## eyeknockout (Aug 24, 2013)

1. strongest person he can beat is alive minato

2. weakest person he would lose to is healthy itachi


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Tandem Explosive Tags is a-lot of Raw Power.  You also don't need a-lot of raw power as most enemies will go down to Kunai stab or sword slash, if it lands.



Yeah most average shinobi also utilize clone feints and substitutions. It's a useful technique for him but it also doesn't make up for a lack of brute force either. I'm still waiting on that technique from him that gives him his own identity, the tandem explosive tag thing was a start though.


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## trance (Aug 24, 2013)

He should be well above the Sannin and the Gokage but clearly below his brother, Madara, BM Naruto and MAYBE Minato...


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## Ennoia (Aug 24, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Itachi did engage him in CQC *and retreated*. I am not sure which manga you have been reading


B took out his swords and went at Itachi and Itachi ran away after _trying_ to defend himself from B's attack; you call that engaging him in CQC? That was completely one sided.


> 2. Itachi is not relevant to the debate. Tobirama only needs to touch him for him to put tags on him. He can use a clone to accomplish this


He is because Itachi has shown some of the fastest reactions in the manga and had to retreat against B so how is Tobirama going to be able to tag B if he starts to use his swords."He can use a clone to accomplish this," yea thats easier said than done when Tobirama has virtually no Taijutsu/CQC feats and is facing someone that reacted to Minato twice and overpowered Itachi.


> 3. Minato does not fight the same way Tobirama does. Hiraishingiri will be more lethal as Kirabi won't know what hit him


Hirashingiri is no different than Minato striking with a kunai except he uses a sword. B reacted to Minato twice so there is no evidence that he will get stabbed by Tobirama. Prove B is going to get casually tagged when he has handled people with top tier reactions multiple times.


> 4. Prove he can't teleport to Konoha.


No buddy burden of proof is on you. We have never seen anyone travel extremely long distances with FTG and multiple times in the plot would this have come in handy including when he was ambushed the first time by Kin-Gin with the Raikage and when he was ambushed with Danzo and Hiruzen. Prove he can teleport that far because you said he could. Like I said its a lazy argument to say he can avoid any large scale attack by teleporting to Konoha.


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## Elite Uchiha (Aug 24, 2013)

Minato
Tobirama
Itachi


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## ? (Aug 24, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> He's about as strong as the likes of Kakashi and Tsunade, but below shinobi like Itachi, Minato etc. In terms of tiers, I'd say he's Mid Kage level​​


How is someone with Edo Tensei and Hiraishin only Tsunade level? No way in hell is someone with his portrayal only Mid-Kage level.

I would say he's in the same class as living Minato/Nagato/Itachi.


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## Cryogonal (Aug 24, 2013)

Unless he shows some powerful Suitons, he will always be looked down upon by many.

Tobirama, for me, is in the same tier of Itachi and Minato.


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## GenericTobiramaFanboy (Aug 24, 2013)

Tobirama is of course above Hashirama and Edo Madara, obviously, I mean he must be, he has Hiraishin which is very inferior to Minato's, or his Edo Tensei WHICH WE HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN YET. Of course he would be on or above the level of Minato, or even Itachi for that matter I mean he must be it is that obvious right? No of course not, to even compare him to Hashirama or Madara is an insult to them to be honest, not to say he isn't powerful, but most of the people on this thread are SERIOUSLY overrating Tobirama. To be honest he hardly stands a chance against someone like Itachi, simply due to the fact that we haven't seen enough offensive OR defensive techniques that could out class most kage level shinobi.
The Strongest Person he could beat: Itachi, but he doesn't have a very good chance.
The Weakest Person he could lose to: SM Jiraiya, or MS Kakashi


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 24, 2013)

Tobirama is not even close to Hashirama's level. What ever you're smoking, I would like some of it.


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## Larcher (Aug 24, 2013)

He's more or less at Nagato,Itachi, and Base Minato's tier


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## Jagger (Aug 24, 2013)

? said:


> How is someone with Edo Tensei and Hiraishin only Tsunade level? No way in hell is someone with his portrayal only Mid-Kage level.
> 
> I would say he's in the same class as living Minato/Nagato/Itachi.


Edo Tensei didn't make Orochimaru THAT powerful back then in Part 1 when even two top-classes shinobis like Hashirama and Tobirama were on his side due the poor level of Oro's technique.


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Aug 25, 2013)

He is on Minato/Itachi tier. Which is damn impressive but he is bellow the likes of Naruto, Sage Kabuto, Nagato and Madara, Hashirama.

Strongest he can beat some times out of ten are Itachi/Minato, not sure who is the weakest who can beat him. Kakashi maybe who is also competitive and dangerous against people in Tobirama's tier.


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## Ezekial (Aug 26, 2013)

He's around Minato's level - He's no mug he was slaying MS users before they became infamous, even hanging with Madara and Hashi, he's the only one who has enabled Naruto to land a hit...

Tobirama is in the top 10 without a doubt.


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## SSMG (Aug 26, 2013)

The dude can palm.tailed beast bombs and teleport them back at his enemy...all with a fucking clone. 

he's badass/10


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 26, 2013)

He is probably on the level of sick Itachi, who is at the top of the high Kage tier. But seriously, he simply isn't on the level of his brother, Madara, Naruto, Sasuke, Edo Itachi, or Minato, with or without KCM.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 26, 2013)

Tobirama is a Suiton master, has Hiraishin exactly has Minato does (without the kunai), Edo Tensei (though weak, he has some ET jutsu to compensate for that) and he's a sensor on top of all that. 

It is fair to put him at least above Itachi, seeing as with Hiraishin and Rasengan alone, a lot of us were willing to put Minato above Itachi on that basis.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 26, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> B took out his swords and went at Itachi and Itachi ran away after _trying_ to defend himself from B's attack; you call that engaging him in CQC? That was completely one sided.



Do you know what CQC is? 

Web definitions
Close quarters combat (CQC) or close quarters battle (CQB) is a type of fighting in which small units *engage the enemy with personal weapons at very short range*, potentially to the point of hand-to-hand combat or *fighting with hand weapons such as swords or knives*. ...

Did Kirabi fight Itachi at short range with a hand weapon (sword)? YES. Did Itachi fight Kirabi with a hand weapon (kunai). YES



the outcome of the fight is irrelevant. They did engage in CQC



Ennoia said:


> He is because Itachi has shown some of the fastest reactions in the manga and had to retreat against B so how is Tobirama going to be able to tag B if he starts to use his swords."He can use a clone to accomplish this," yea thats easier said than done when Tobirama has virtually no Taijutsu/CQC feats and is facing someone that reacted to Minato twice and overpowered Itachi.



Tobirama tagged Jyuubito with two different tags at the same time. Jyuubito is faster than Kirabi. He sacrificed himself to accomplish this. What is so special about Kirabi who is slower than Jyuubito?



Ennoia said:


> Hirashingiri is no different than Minato striking with a kunai except he uses a sword. B reacted to Minato twice so there is no evidence that he will get stabbed by Tobirama. Prove B is going to get casually tagged when he has handled people with top tier reactions multiple times.



1. Hiraishingiri is differnt because Tobirama does not stop then attack like Minato. Minato shows up holding a kunai and then attacks. Tobirama moves and slashes. 
2. Kirabi did not react to hirashin the first time. He reacted to Minato attacking his brother AFTER hiraishin (hiraishingiri does not offer one this chance). Also, Kirabi was not directly attacked. He was a spectator. So, this does not say anything
3. The second time Kirabi reacted to Minato's physical speed because Minato appeared behind him AND stopped before attacking. Hiraishingiri does not do this



Ennoia said:


> No buddy burden of proof is on you. We have never seen anyone travel extremely long distances with FTG and multiple times in the plot would this have come in handy including when he was ambushed the first time by Kin-Gin with the Raikage and when he was ambushed with Danzo and Hiruzen. Prove he can teleport that far because you said he could. Like I said its a lazy argument to say he can avoid any large scale attack by teleporting to Konoha.



1. I have already provided proof by referring to the databook. Funny enough you failed to mention it
2. I said he can retreat to Konoha or wherever he has a marker. Who says that Konoha has to be 1000's of miles away from where they fighting
3. If there was a range limitation to hiraishin as you claim, then logically it defeats the purpose of Minato offering kunais to people he loves so he can always defend them. Unless there is no range limitation, giving Kakashi, Kushina a marker is not very helpful since Minato cannot jump to them when he is out of range. 
4. Tobirama was going to teleport a bijuudama this chapter out of the range of the army's location. This implies that he has the ability to jump hundreds of miles away without preparation

Go ahead now and show me any single instance that implies that ST is range limited


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## Veo (Aug 26, 2013)

Qhorin Halfhand said:


> He is on Minato/Itachi tier. Which is damn impressive but he is bellow the likes of Naruto, Sage Kabuto, Nagato and Madara, Hashirama.
> 
> Strongest he can beat some times out of ten are Itachi/Minato, not sure who is the weakest who can beat him. Kakashi maybe who is also competitive and dangerous against people in Tobirama's tier.



Yup, I totally agree with you.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 26, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tobirama is a Suiton master, has Hiraishin exactly has Minato does (without the kunai), Edo Tensei (though weak, he has some ET jutsu to compensate for that) and he's a sensor on top of all that.
> 
> It is fair to put him at least above Itachi, seeing as with Hiraishin and Rasengan alone, a lot of us were willing to put Minato above Itachi on that basis.



Show me some legitimate panels of him using water style on the level of someone like Kisame. And we really don't know exactly how well of an edo tensei user he is. And his FTG lacks, like you said, the kunai. He seems to use FTG as more of a way to confuse the enemy in CQC. It's annoying when people think he is as good as Minato when it was blatantly stated in the manga to be worse. As for Itachi, Tobirama's FTG lacks the range to get away from Totsuka. And, while Itachi is in Susanoo, he has no real way to hit him.


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## Garcher (Aug 26, 2013)

itachi>tobirama>your favorite character i would say. he didn't show much actually fighting ability. After Hiruzen Minato and Hashirama now he gets pushed by Kishi like he is the most badass kage out there.
He doesn't uses Edo Tensei he just invented it, people don't get the difference. 
He has no FTG kunais what makes the jutsu not such a huge thread at all.
He never showed something else than 0815 suiton jutsu.
So how you want to rank him?


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 26, 2013)

What if my favorite character is Madara?


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## SSMG (Aug 26, 2013)

Itachi fans are the worst.


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## Reznor (Aug 26, 2013)

I love these usernames, in context of their opinions.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 26, 2013)

SSMG said:


> Itachi fans are the worst.



I dunno man. If Tobirama fans are saying he is right below his brother, they are getting up there.


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## TobiramaBoss123 (Aug 26, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> I dunno man. If Tobirama fans are saying he is right below his brother, they are getting up there.



I don't think he's right below his brother but I think he could beat Danzo, Any of the former kage from other villages, and Hiruzen


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## Ennoia (Aug 26, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Do you know what CQC is?
> 
> Web definitions
> Close quarters combat (CQC) or close quarters battle (CQB) is a type of fighting in which small units *engage the enemy with personal weapons at very short range*, potentially to the point of hand-to-hand combat or *fighting with hand weapons such as swords or knives*. ...
> ...


Except Itachi did not fight him, he defended himself; there is a difference. So no, Itachi did not fight him in CQC he was merely defending himself from a blitzing B and was overpowered.



> Tobirama tagged Jyuubito with two different tags at the same time. Jyuubito is faster than Kirabi. He sacrificed himself to accomplish this. What is so special about Kirabi who is slower than Jyuubito?


Edo feats do not count because he would have been too busy being dead to worry about tags; not to mention he did that to a mindless Obito. B's speed has nothing to do with this it is his reactions, and B has shown reactions fast enough to keep up with Tobirama without being casually tagged (if tagged at all) like you said he would be. 



> 1. Hiraishingiri is differnt because Tobirama does not stop then attack like Minato. Minato shows up holding a kunai and then attacks. Tobirama moves and slashes.
> 2. Kirabi did not react to hirashin the first time. He reacted to Minato attacking his brother AFTER hiraishin (hiraishingiri does not offer one this chance). Also, Kirabi was not directly attacked. He was a spectator. So, this does not say anything
> 3. The second time Kirabi reacted to Minato's physical speed because Minato appeared behind him AND stopped before attacking. Hiraishingiri does not do this


Thats not even logical because FTG teleports so its impossible to attack mid-teleport. Considering your next two points revolve around this im going to need you to prove he can attack while teleporting since it makes no sense.



> 1. I have already provided proof by referring to the databook. Funny enough you failed to mention it


What you said is not proof, simply because a jutsu is listed as long range does not mean that they can make the jutsu go half way around the world. "Long distance travel" is extrmely vague for someone to say he can teleport between countries for instance.



> 2. I said he can retreat to Konoha or wherever he has a marker. Who says that Konoha has to be 1000's of miles away from where they fighting


It dosent, but imagining every fight that Tobirama enters is within earshot of Konoha dosent seem fair.



> 3. If there was a range limitation to hiraishin as you claim, then logically it defeats the purpose of Minato offering kunais to people he loves so he can always defend them. Unless there is no range limitation, giving Kakashi, Kushina a marker is not very helpful since Minato cannot jump to them when he is out of range.


Minato said that the Kunai alerts him as to when it is flying so that he knows there is danger not so that he can teleport there instantly from who knows where. We even see that it took him a decent amount of time before he got to Kakashi and his team.



> 4. Tobirama was going to teleport a bijuudama this chapter out of the range of the army's location. This implies that he has the ability to jump hundreds of miles away without preparation


Its unclear where he was going to send it, he only needed to get it out of the immediate area. 



> Go ahead now and show me any single instance that implies that ST is range limited


Both times Tobirama was attacked by Kin-Gin, he was nearly killed the first time and the second time probably died.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 26, 2013)

Reznor said:


> I love these usernames, in context of their opinions.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 26, 2013)

TobiramaBoss123 said:


> I don't think he's right below his brother but I think he could beat Danzo, Any of the former kage from other villages, and Hiruzen



He can beat those people with certainty. The only one that would give him trouble is Mu, and his sensing skills should prevail over the Tsuchikage.


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## TheGoatSage (Aug 26, 2013)

If the question is where we rank Tobirama, I'd say in the tier just below Minato and Nagato, however he could become as strong as them before the end of the series. As we haven't seen him:
1. Use any sort of suiton that could even potentially kill a High-Kage class Shinobi.
2. Even use Edo Tensei
3. Be able to use Hiraishin outside of close-quarters.
4. Use any sort of taijutsu, or see the limits of his chakra.
With all of these unknowns, it is hard to say where he stands, based on hype, he's up there with Minato and Nagato. If we are talking feats we've actually seen, he is in the tier just  below Nagato and Itachi.


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## The World (Aug 26, 2013)

Tobirama is just below his brother

He's a top tier

What's so hard to understand?



I Am Probably Wrong said:


> I dunno man. If Tobirama fans are saying he is right below his brother, they are getting up there.



Your name is pretty ironic


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 26, 2013)

The World said:


> Tobirama is just below his brother
> 
> He's a top tier
> 
> ...



The only person who has the right to be right below Hashirama is Madara. And how dare you insult my username. To think my username is ironic. You just don't know a kwality username when you see one. ck


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## Senjuclan (Aug 26, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Except Itachi did not fight him, he defended himself; there is a difference. So no, Itachi did not fight him in CQC he was merely defending himself from a blitzing B and was overpowered.



You should avail yourself of a dictionary

To FIGHT
1a : to contend in battle or physical combat; especially : to strive to overcome a person by blows or weapons b : to engage in boxing 
2: to put forth a determined effort 

The guy that is just defending himself against Mike Tyson is FIGHTING=contending in battle against Mike Tyson. 

This is getting ridiculous 



Ennoia said:


> Edo feats do not count because he would have been too busy being dead to worry about tags; not to mention he did that to a mindless Obito. B's speed has nothing to do with this it is his reactions, and B has shown reactions fast enough to keep up with Tobirama without being casually tagged (if tagged at all) like you said he would be.



1. You are being ridiculous. Tobirama can use a clone if necessary
2. Jyuubito has shown better reactions than Kirabi as well. So, Kirabi gets his ass tagged



Ennoia said:


> Thats not even logical because FTG teleports so its impossible to attack mid-teleport. Considering your next two points revolve around this im going to need you to prove he can attack while teleporting since it makes no sense.



Read the manga some time. I find that it helps avoid silly arguments. May I suggest you read the manga and find out the difference between Minato appearing mid air with a kunai looking to hit A and Naruto appearing with an already formed rasengan that he formed before Tobirama teleported him



Ennoia said:


> What you said is not proof, simply because a jutsu is listed as long range does not mean that they can make the jutsu go half way around the world. "Long distance travel" is extrmely vague for someone to say he can teleport between countries for instance.



Does not have to be between countries. Only out of the range of the fodder jutsu you mentioned 



Ennoia said:


> It dosent, but imagining every fight that Tobirama enters is within earshot of Konoha dosent seem fair.



Never said it did. Maybe you should learn to read. Konoha OR wherever he has a marker



Ennoia said:


> Minato said that the Kunai alerts him as to when it is flying so that he knows there is danger not so that he can teleport there instantly from who knows where. We even see that it took him a decent amount of time before he got to Kakashi and his team.



1. It took Kakashi time to wake not Minato time to arrive there. How do you propose he got there in time? He ran?
2. So what if he knows that the kunai is flying and he can't get to it? What the hell is the purpose? To make sure he knows when he is incapable of helpig them?



Ennoia said:


> Its unclear where he was going to send it, he only needed to get it out of the immediate area.



You mean outside of the area of the army, right? So, in other words he can get out of the area of Kirabi's fodder attack without preparation. So, your argument has been invalidated. Moving on



Ennoia said:


> Both times Tobirama was attacked by Kin-Gin, he was nearly killed the first time and the second time probably died.



Minato was almost killed when the kyuubi attacked Naruto and died shortly thereafter. Does that mean that Minato cannot teleport? 

That is second grade level of arguing. Unless you know the circumstances surround the fight (it was one fight not two), you can't draw any conclusions. If the only thing we knew about Minato's fight with kyuubi the night of Naruto's birth was that kyuubi impaled him and that he died a few minutes after the fact and therefore concluded that hiraishin could not have saved him, we would be downright stupid for coming to such a conclusion. Yet that is what you are doing with Tobirama


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## Yagura (Aug 26, 2013)

Eh, he's thoroughly below than the likes of Nagato or Itachi - he's more on the level of some of the stronger Kage like Mu or A, given he has Edo Tensei prepped.


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## Ennoia (Aug 26, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> You should avail yourself of a dictionary
> 
> To FIGHT
> 1a : to contend in battle or physical combat; especially : to strive to overcome a person by blows or weapons b : to engage in boxing
> ...


As I said defending and fighting are not the same thing, you can pull out all the definitions you want but im not arguing semantics. The very definition that you posted goes against what you are saying because it says to overcome a person with blows, Itachi defended himself, he did not engage B in CQC, engaging/fighting him would involve a trading of blows which did not occur.



> 1. You are being ridiculous. Tobirama can use a clone if necessary
> 2. Jyuubito has shown better reactions than Kirabi as well. So, Kirabi gets his ass tagged


And B can use clones as well. Obito was not in his right mind to be saying that is a feat that puts Tobirama's reactions massively over cloaked Naruto, Sasuke, Minato, and everyone else that Obito tagged. Its just not reasonable. And still this was only possible because of Edo.



> Read the manga some time. I find that it helps avoid silly arguments. May I suggest you read the manga and find out the difference between Minato appearing mid air with a kunai looking to hit A and Naruto appearing with an already formed rasengan that he formed before Tobirama teleported him


I dont understand what you're getting to. Tobirama cannot slash someone if he is using FTG because he literally moves from one place to the next he does not have a physical form that allows him to slash until after he appears. He has to actually slash his opponent the same way Minato did because of this. What you said makes no sense so just post links and stop trying to be a wise guy.



> Does not have to be between countries. Only out of the range of the fodder jutsu you mentioned


Meaning he would have to be close to Konoha or the current battlefield which goes down to my bottom point of the fight location having to be extremely specific in order for him to do so. For the sake of neutrality we can assume the fight takes place in Iwi.



> Never said it did. Maybe you should learn to read. Konoha OR wherever he has a marker


We only know of two places where he has markers and that is the current battlefield and Konoha, its not necessary to talk about imaginary markers in a fight where we have to use the information thats given to us. Its a totally irrelevant argument so lets drop it and stick to what we know.



> 1. It took Kakashi time to wake not Minato time to arrive there. How do you propose he got there in time? He ran?
> 2. So what if he knows that the kunai is flying and he can't get to it? What the hell is the purpose? To make sure he knows when he is incapable of helpig them?


1. The whole situation is unclear from how long Kakashi was fighting to how close Minato was so its useless speculating.
2. To alert him that his friends are in danger so that he can teleport to it if he is within distance or tell him that he needs to get within distance. You cannot prove anything here so lets drop it.



> You mean outside of the area of the army, right? So, in other words he can get out of the area of Kirabi's fodder attack without preparation. So, your argument has been invalidated. Moving on


So you are admitting that Tobirama needs prepped seals surrounding the fighting area in order to defeat B?



> That is second grade level of arguing. Unless you know the circumstances surround the fight (it was one fight not two), you can't draw any conclusions. If the only thing we knew about Minato's fight with kyuubi the night of Naruto's birth was that kyuubi impaled him and that he died a few minutes after the fact and therefore concluded that hiraishin could not have saved him, we would be downright stupid for coming to such a conclusion. Yet that is what you are doing with Tobirama


We know the circumstances, Tobirama stayed behind to lure Kinkaku force away, he could have easily teleported away after doing so and the same goes for the entire situation in which he could have simply used FTG to get his team out of there. What you're saying can be said about any situation in the manga. We can only go by what we know until something comes along that contradicts it or adds to the information we know and that has not happened thus far so it goes against your argument.

All you need to do is prove Tobirama has significantly faster reactions than Minato and that Tobirama can teleport between countries; everything else is irrelevant.


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## SSMG (Aug 26, 2013)

If Tobiramas S/T jutsu was long distance he would have used it to ecsape against the KinGinsquad. He could easily get his students to place a hand on him then poof...back to Konoha.


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## TheGoatSage (Aug 26, 2013)

The World said:


> Tobirama is just below his brother
> 
> He's a top tier
> 
> ...



Enlighten me on why you think that is true.


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 26, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> As I said defending and fighting are not the same thing, you can pull out all the definitions you want but im not arguing semantics. The very definition that you posted goes against what you are saying because it says to overcome a person with blows, Itachi defended himself, he did not engage B in CQC, engaging/fighting him would involve a trading of blows which did not occur.



1. You apparently can't read. It says STRIVE to overcome
2. To show you the folly of your ways, I will ask a simple question. Two boxers square off. One dominates the other while the other only defends himself but does not get a single hit. Would you say they were fighting or not



Ennoia said:


> And B can use clones as well.



So? How does change anything? Either him or his clone will be tagged



Ennoia said:


> Obito was not in his right mind to be saying that is a feat that puts Tobirama's reactions massively over cloaked Naruto, Sasuke, Minato, and everyone else that Obito tagged. Its just not reasonable. And still this was only possible because of Edo.



1. In his right mind or not Obito could attack or defend. So your point is moot
2. Your excuses are getting annoying. Edo bodies can be replaced w/ clones. If you don't have another reply, I won't go back to responding next time



Ennoia said:


> I dont understand what you're getting to. Tobirama cannot slash someone if he is using FTG because he literally moves from one place to the next he does not have a physical form that allows him to slash until after he appears. He has to actually slash his opponent the same way Minato did because of this. What you said makes no sense so just post links and stop trying to be a wise guy.



1. Read the manga and see what he did to Izuna. He moved to the marker in a slashing motion. Different from what Minato does
2. I am not going to post a link for someone who argues points he has not read. Read the manga yourself
3. Hiraishin allows one to teleport with an attack already formed or to attack after the teleport



Ennoia said:


> Meaning he would have to be close to Konoha or the current battlefield which goes down to my bottom point of the fight location having to be extremely specific in order for him to do so. For the sake of neutrality we can assume the fight takes place in Iwi.
> 
> We only know of two places where he has markers and that is the current battlefield and Konoha, its not necessary to talk about imaginary markers in a fight where we have to use the information thats given to us. Its a totally irrelevant argument so lets drop it and stick to what we know.



How did he get a marker outside of this battlefield? Tell us



Ennoia said:


> 1. The whole situation is unclear from how long Kakashi was fighting to how close Minato was so its useless speculating.
> 2. To alert him that his friends are in danger so that he can teleport to it if he is within distance or tell him that he needs to get within distance. You cannot prove anything here so lets drop it.



 so Minato gave Kakashi a marker so he could protect him but said marker was no guarantee of help. GTFO




Ennoia said:


> So you are admitting that Tobirama needs prepped seals surrounding the fighting area in order to defeat B?



No I am saying that he already has seals prepped because he could teleport the bijuudama without prep. So obviously he could that anytime




Ennoia said:


> We know the circumstances, Tobirama stayed behind to lure Kinkaku force away, he could have easily teleported away after doing so and the same goes for the entire situation in which he could have simply used FTG to get his team out of there. What you're saying can be said about any situation in the manga. We can only go by what we know until something comes along that contradicts it or adds to the information we know and that has not happened thus far so it goes against your argument.



Problem is we don't know anything. We don't know what happened when he lured them away. We don't know who he fought. We don't know anything



Ennoia said:


> All you need to do is prove Tobirama has significantly faster reactions than Minato and that Tobirama can teleport between countries; everything else is irrelevant.



I need to prove that Kirabi is slower than Juuubito, which I already have. Since Obito got tagged, he will as well 

Furthermore I need to prove that he can teleport out of the range of kirabi's coil and I proved that as well by showing you that he could teleport a bijuudama out of the range of the army.

Now you need to prove How Kirabi's reflexes are above Obito's


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## Ennoia (Aug 27, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. You apparently can't read. It says STRIVE to overcome
> 2. To show you the folly of your ways, I will ask a simple question. Two boxers square off. One dominates the other while the other only defends himself but does not get a single hit. Would you say they were fighting or not


My point still stands, your own definition says a trading of blows; your example does not hold up for a number of reasons from strategy to the fact that it is judged so its hard to answer your question without going off on a separate tangent and asking for more information on that scenario. Your question is far from simple.



> 1. In his right mind or not Obito could attack or defend. So your point is moot
> 2. Your excuses are getting annoying. Edo bodies can be replaced w/ clones. If you don't have another reply, I won't go back to responding next time


1. The point is that Obito never actually cared until he got his mind back so touching Obito at this point cannot actually be said to be moving faster than he can react. Its also explicitly said that he did not have control over his body.
2. Clones cannot replace them because they disperse after receiving that impact, certain Edo feats cannot be passed off as base feats.



> 1. Read the manga and see what he did to Izuna. He moved to the marker in a slashing motion. Different from what Minato does


The manga literally has one panel of him behind Izuna after slashing him, what you are saying is not shown nor has this even been implied to be possible. You cannot possibly slash someone without physically doing it. You are basing this on your misinterpretation of one panel when everything we have seen prior to that panel says what you're seeing is impossible. The only logical explanation is that he did the same thing Minato does which is teleport then slash.



> How did he get a marker outside of this battlefield? Tell us


Logic would dictate that he did it the same way Minato did, he prepped it before he got there. We also dont see him tag the ground but he teleported there after his clone took Obito's bomb off Minato. The only other place he could have sent it to is Konoha and we know he would not do this so again logic would tell use he prepped before getting there like Minato did.



> so Minato gave Kakashi a marker so he could protect him but said marker was no guarantee of help. GTFO


Thats exactly right.



> No I am saying that *he already has seals prepped* because he could *teleport the bijuudama without prep*. So obviously he could that anytime





> Problem is we don't know anything. We don't know what happened when he lured them away. We don't know who he fought. We don't know anything


And as I said you can say that about almost any situation in the manga but as far as we know there was nothing stopping him from doing it and thats all there is to it. We take what we know and what common sense tells us or else there would be no BD. You're only saying this because your argument is already based on uncertainty.



> I need to prove that Kirabi is slower than Juuubito, which I already have. Since Obito got tagged, he will as well
> 
> Furthermore I need to prove that he can teleport out of the range of kirabi's coil and I proved that as well by showing you that he could teleport a bijuudama out of the range of the army.
> 
> Now you need to prove How Kirabi's reflexes are above Obito's


An Edo tagging a mindless Obito without control over his body in no way indicates that Tobirama can casually tag B. Teleporting a BB to an undisclosed location does not prove he can teleport to any place he wants. B reacted to Minato twice and Obito in his right mind was able to tag Minato to an extent that B might be capable of doing considering B has faster reactions than Minato. Given this, B should have comparable reactions to Obito in this form and given that Obito with his mind and control of his body > Obito without his mind and control of his body and that Tobirama > Minato in reactions Tobirama should be able to avoid B's attacks but not casually tag him if tag him at all. Mind you this is all reactions and not foot speed.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 27, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> My point still stands, your own definition says a trading of blows; your example does not hold up for a number of reasons from strategy to the fact that it is judged so its hard to answer your question without going off on a separate tangent and asking for more information on that scenario. Your question is far from simple.



1. It does not say trading blows.  
2. It says striving to overcome by using blows
3. Itachi was striving to overcome Kirabi using weapons = he was fighting




Ennoia said:


> 1. The point is that Obito never actually cared until he got his mind back so touching Obito at this point cannot actually be said to be moving faster than he can react. Its also explicitly said that he did not have control over his body.
> 2. Clones cannot replace them because they disperse after receiving that impact, certain Edo feats cannot be passed off as base feats.



1. Mindless was extremely fast. Show proof that gaining consciousness increased his speed
2. By the time they disperse, they will have placed the tag on him



Ennoia said:


> The manga literally has one panel of him behind Izuna after slashing him, what you are saying is not shown nor has this even been implied to be possible. You cannot possibly slash someone without physically doing it. You are basing this on your misinterpretation of one panel when everything we have seen prior to that panel says what you're seeing is impossible. The only logical explanation is that he did the same thing Minato does which is teleport then slash.



When did Naruto perform rasengan to hit Obito? Before or after



Ennoia said:


> TheLogic would dictate that he did it the same way Minato did, he prepped it before he got there. We also dont see him tag the ground but he teleported there after his clone took Obito's bomb off Minato. The only other place he could have sent it to is Konoha and we know he would not do this so again logic would tell use he prepped before getting there like Minato did.



So it is IC for him to set markers before fights = he will have one set to avoid Kirabi's attack



Ennoia said:


> Thats exactly right.



That makes no sense since that kunai will be mostly useless 



Ennoia said:


> And as I said you can say that about almost any situation in the manga but as far as we know there was nothing stopping him from doing it and thats all there is to it. We take what we know and what common sense tells us or else there would be no BD. You're only saying this because your argument is already based on uncertainty.



There are things we know for sure. For example A is too fast for Amaterasu. We know that for sure. However, in the case of Tobirama we simply don't know therefore cant comment



Ennoia said:


> An Edo tagging a mindless Obito without control over his body in no way indicates that Tobirama can casually tag B. Teleporting a BB to an undisclosed location does not prove he can teleport to any place he wants. B reacted to Minato twice and Obito in his right mind was able to tag Minato to an extent that B might be capable of doing considering B has faster reactions than Minato. Given this, B should have comparable reactions to Obito in this form and given that Obito with his mind and control of his body > Obito without his mind and control of his body and that Tobirama > Minato in reactions Tobirama should be able to avoid B's attacks but not casually tag him if tag him at all. Mind you this is all reactions and not foot speed.



Proof that obito without conscience is slower


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 27, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Show me some legitimate panels of him using water style on the level of someone like Kisame. And we really don't know exactly how well of an edo tensei user he is. And his FTG lacks, like you said, the kunai. He seems to use FTG as more of a way to confuse the enemy in CQC. It's annoying when people think he is as good as Minato when it was blatantly stated in the manga to be worse. As for Itachi, Tobirama's FTG lacks the range to get away from Totsuka. And, while Itachi is in Susanoo, he has no real way to hit him.



We have him being referred to as a Suiton master.

We know his ET is at least as strong as the one Orochimaru spawned in part 1.

Locations can be marked, not just people.

The manga only shows Minato can use the kunai variations. The only thing Minato could do is teleport twice the amount of things Tobirama can (Hiraishin barriwe).

Any Hiraishin user that marks Susanoo, or the area it'll go over is open to be hit by a Hiraishin user. Tobirama did beat a MS user with Hiraishin, and saw more skilled MS users than Itachi (those who could improve Amaterasu to Kagutsuchi).

It is safe to say he's at least above Itachi. It is also worth noting we were all willing to put Minato above Itachi with much less than Tobirama has shown. As such it makes sense to put Tobirama, at least, above Itachi.


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## Trojan (Aug 27, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We have him being referred to as a Suiton master.
> 
> We know his ET is at least as strong as the one Orochimaru spawned in part 1.
> 
> ...



1- All what the ANBU stated that using a B-rank jutsu without a source of water is unbelievable
even though every one and their mothers do that now. No where it stated that he's the greatest
water user or if he as the same level as Kisame. 

2- Wrong again, Oro's edo in part 1 is greater than Tobirama's and you can know that by
Kabuto's statement. 

3- Minato's is also faster. 

4- I agree. 

5- LOL, Minato's feats are MUCH greater than Tobirama's and what he has shown is a lot more
than him as well.


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## Dominus (Aug 27, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 1- All what the ANBU stated that using a B-rank jutsu without a source of water is unbelievable
> even though every one and their mothers do that now. No where it stated that he's the greatest
> water user or if he as the same level as Kisame.



If his Suiton techniques were above average in Part I, when he was not even close to his full power, then imagine them at full power. I think that his proficiency with Suiton techniques is probably around Kisame's level, who knows it's even possible that they are more powerful, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.



> 2- Wrong again, Oro's edo in part 1 is greater than Tobirama's and you can know that by
> Kabuto's statement.



Yeah, Orochimaru improved Edo Tensei/the shinobi he reincarnates are closer to full power than the ones Tobirama reincarnates, but more advanced doesn't always have to mean better, just look at the fight between Minato and Obito, Kamui is more advanced than Hiraishin, yet Minato defeated him. I think that Tobirama's Edo Tensei is better than Part I Orochimaru's because he uses it differently, he doesn't use them to fight with their power because they're weak, he uses his own tactics and techniques that he created with Edo Tensei like Gojō Kibaku Fuda.



> 5- LOL, Minato's feats are MUCH greater than Tobirama's and what he has shown is a lot more
> than him as well.



We've seen more from Minato, but haven't seen everything from them, Minato has that new Hiraishin technique and like I've said before, we haven't seen Tobirama's Suiton techniques nor his other tactics and techniques that go along with Edo Tensei.


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 27, 2013)

Above: Sannin and  Itachi
Below: Hashirama and Madara


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 27, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 1- All what the ANBU stated that using a B-rank jutsu without a source of water is unbelievable
> even though every one and their mothers do that now. No where it stated that he's the greatest
> water user or if he as the same level as Kisame.
> 
> ...



1 - True, but he used a Suiton with very little seals that normally takes tons of seals, without a source. It wouldn't be mentioned if it wasn't a notable skill.

2 - Oh right, I forgot about that. 

3 - Indeed, however the Hiraishin mechanics are the same (except Minato can teleport two Bijuu Dama and use kunai).

5 - I'm referring to well before Minato showed his stuff in the war, perhaps even before that. A lot of us were willing to accept Minato>Itachi, so similarly it'd be fair to accept Tobirama>Itachi.


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## Ennoia (Aug 27, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. It does not say trading blows.
> 2. It says striving to overcome by using blows
> 3. Itachi was striving to overcome Kirabi using weapons = he was fighting


You're nit picking. It says to overcome using blows, if only one person is doing this then that person is fighting but it is not what we call a fight until both people are doing this (trading blows considering blows are necessary) which never happened. In order for Itachi to have engaged B in CQC he would have had to also been attacking but he was only defending showing that he could not engage B in CQC. Im not arguing this point again because it feels like you're trolling.


> 1. Mindless was extremely fast. Show proof that gaining consciousness increased his speed
> 2. By the time they disperse, they will have placed the tag on him


I did not say increased speed I said increased reactions and this is evident when he was able to tag Minato whom has relatively similar reactions to Tobirama and not being able to attack Naruto and Sasuke before Naruto could use his chakra arms with time left over for Minato to use FTG when he later tagged Minato himself. 

Prove he tagged Obito before he was torn apart and not during or after. You cant, thats why I said some Edo feats dont count.


> When did Naruto perform rasengan to hit Obito? Before or after


Im not sure how this is relevant, we actually see Naruto had to thrust his Rasengan which you are saying he wouldnt have needed to do.


> So it is IC for him to set markers before fights = he will have one set to avoid Kirabi's attack


So he needs prep to beat B then, you took me around robin hoods barn to get back to the basic question of how he avoids 8 Coils. He needs prep.


> Proof that obito without conscience is slower


Addressed up top.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 27, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> You're nit picking. It says to overcome using blows, if only one person is doing this then that person is fighting but it is not what we call a fight until both people are doing this (trading blows considering blows are necessary) which never happened. In order for Itachi to have engaged B in CQC he would have had to also been attacking but he was only defending showing that he could not engage B in CQC. Im not arguing this point again because it feels like you're trolling.



Last reply because this is getting silly. The definition is to STRIVE to overcome by using blows or weapons. Itachi was (1) using weapons and (2) striving to overcome. The outcome of a fight does not determine whether or not one is fighting. 

You are a serious troll. If I get into a fight with Mike Tyson, he will pummel me but guess what that is called a fight. Troll



Ennoia said:


> I did not say increased speed I said increased reactions and this is evident when he was able to tag Minato whom has relatively similar reactions to Tobirama and not being able to attack Naruto and Sasuke before Naruto could use his chakra arms with time left over for Minato to use FTG when he later tagged Minato himself.



Apples and oranges. Naruto is not Minato or Tobirama therefore you can't compare Obito's increase in reaction speed by using him. If you are going to use Naruto as your benchmark, then you need to show that he was slower in reaction time before he gained consciousness. You can't use two different measures of unit



Ennoia said:


> Prove he tagged Obito before he was torn apart and not during or after. You cant, thats why I said some Edo feats dont count.



Does not matter when he tagged him. It matters that he did, therefore he can do it against Kirabi who is slower. 



Ennoia said:


> Im not sure how this is relevant, we actually see Naruto had to thrust his Rasengan which you are saying he wouldnt have needed to do.



Rasengan formed here. Immediately appears behind Obito with a rasengan on his back. Naruto did not take time to form the rasengan after the attack. There was no way Obito could react to that attack. Same thing with Kirabi. He won't see what hit him



Ennoia said:


> So he needs prep to beat B then, you took me around robin hoods barn to get back to the basic question of how he avoids 8 Coils. He needs prep.



He does not need prep because it is IC for him to be prepped



Ennoia said:


> Addressed up top.



Addressed by comparing Obito vs. Naruto and Minato and Tobirama. That is silly. If you are comparing one unit to another in order to measure a change in said unit speed, you need to hold the unit you are comparing to constant. I can't compare Usain Bolt to Carl Lewis and then Blake unless I had a measure of comparison for Blake vs. Carl Lewis. You are comparing Naruto, Tobirama and Minato to Obito. "Clusterduck" much?


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## Ennoia (Aug 27, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Last reply because this is getting silly. The definition is to STRIVE to overcome by using blows or weapons. Itachi was (1) using weapons and (2) striving to overcome. The outcome of a fight does not determine whether or not one is fighting.
> 
> You are a serious troll. If I get into a fight with Mike Tyson, he will pummel me but guess what that is called a fight. Troll


No, that would be him beating on you, a fight would imply you hitting back. You only mention striving and the use of weapons but conveniently ignore the main point of your own definition being blows or attacking. Defending =/= fighting thats the main point.



> Apples and oranges. Naruto is not Minato or Tobirama therefore you can't compare Obito's increase in reaction speed by using him. If you are going to use Naruto as your benchmark, then you need to show that he was slower in reaction time before he gained consciousness. You can't use two different measures of unit


Its a legit point because Naruto is slower than both Tobirama and Minato in reactions yet Obito could not attack him fast enough before he could reach to Minato and Minato to use FTG. If Obito could not react to something slower than Minato and later tagged Minato then its clear that he did not have the same reactions prior to getting his mind back than he did before.



> Does not matter when he tagged him. It matters that he did, therefore he can do it against Kirabi who is slower.


If you cannot prove that he can replicate that feat without Edo then you have nothing to support your argument.



> Rasengan formed here. Immediately appears behind Obito with a rasengan on his back. Naruto did not take time to form the rasengan after the attack. There was no way Obito could react to that attack. Same thing with Kirabi. He won't see what hit him


Except Obito did not care about the attack because he didnt expect anything they had to work--"I didnt expect the Juubi's host to have such a weak point." Tobirama later says if they try that again they will be killed and Obito previously already reacted to Tobirama's FTG but Tobirama only tagged him because he was distracted by Minato.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 27, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> No, that would be him beating on you, a fight would imply you hitting back. You only mention striving and the use of weapons but conveniently ignore the main point of your own definition being blows or attacking. Defending =/= fighting thats the main point.



Maybe English is not your first language or if it is, you don't understand it quite well. A fight is defined as striving to hit someone. Whether or not you hit the person is necessary. It is the striving to hit that determines whether or not a fight occurred. I am going by the dictionary 



Ennoia said:


> Its a legit point because Naruto is slower than both Tobirama and Minato in reactions yet Obito could not attack him fast enough before he could reach to Minato and Minato to use FTG. If Obito could not react to something slower than Minato and later tagged Minato then its clear that he did not have the same reactions prior to getting his mind back than he did before.



Which one are you speaking of now? Speed or reaction? To attack one needs speed not reaction. The point we are discussing is whether or not Obito's REACTION time increased. Your example deals with SPEED



Ennoia said:


> If you cannot prove that he can replicate that feat without Edo then you have nothing to support your argument.



I already have. The burden of proof is on you to show that a clone cannot do it



Ennoia said:


> Except Obito did not care about the attack because he didnt expect anything they had to work--"I didnt expect the Juubi's host to have such a weak point." Tobirama later says if they try that again they will be killed and Obito previously already reacted to Tobirama's FTG but Tobirama only tagged him because he was distracted by Minato.



1. Your first point is simply lolzy ...  Obito defended himself against every attack before then. Hiruzen attacked him, he defended himself. Tobirama+Naruto+Sasuke+Naruto attacked him, he defended himself. So, for you to claim that he did not care to defend himself is BS
2. Furthermore, when he is hit with rasengan, he is shown with an exclamation sign. This means that he was surprised by the attack not that he did not care about defending himself

You are reaching here. I think my case has been made here


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## Trojan (Aug 27, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> If his Suiton techniques were above average in Part I, when he was not even close to his full power, then imagine them at full power. I think that his proficiency with Suiton techniques is probably around Kisame's level, who knows it's even possible that they are more powerful, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1- Well, as of now, he is not. Therefore, the only thing we can give him is his feat
and we can wait for the other jutsus even though I doubt that they'll use element jutsus
againt obito.

2- But that jutsu will kill him as well. At least that what I understood from madara
This page springs to mind
when he said "....along with the caster" he's more likely talking about that explosion tags. 

3- True. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 1 - True, but he used a Suiton with very little seals that normally takes tons of seals, without a source. It wouldn't be mentioned if it wasn't a notable skill.
> 
> 2 - Oh right, I forgot about that.
> 
> ...



1- Darui did the same, I suppose, here
This page springs to mind
it's the water barrier

and we have Mei and itachi doing the Dragon water without much of seals as well
so, to me it's more like Zabuza is the one who's not that great in these things like the kage level
rather than tobirama being especial. 

2- Minato wanted to teleport the entire tree though, so he can teleport all 4 of them, it dependents I think.  

3- Oh I see, I agree with that, I have always believed that Tobirama is stronger than itachi anyway.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 27, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 1- Darui did the same, I suppose, here
> [2]
> it's the water barrier
> 
> ...





1 - As another poster pointed out, that was a weakened Tobirama. If Tobirama (with full power) had a reputation with Suiton, and Mei and Darui type shinobi rival that. It stands to reason that his full powered Suiton should be incredibly powerful.

2 - I was referring to teleporting the several Bijuu-Dama like this, only with many more. It is plausible to say Tobirama could possibly replicate Minato's idea of teleporting the three... perhaps with a clone or two.


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## Dominus (Aug 28, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 1- Well, as of now, he is not. Therefore, the only thing we can give him is his feat
> and we can wait for the other jutsus even though* I doubt that they'll use element jutsus
> againt obito.*



I know. 



> 2- But that jutsu will kill him as well. At least that what I understood from madara
> he speaks of Zabuza
> when he said "....along with the caster" he's more likely talking about that explosion tags.



I think Madara meant it was going to destroy the one who casts the technique that will clear the battlefield, not the one who uses Edo Tensei. Why would it kill Tobirama, when he can easily get away with Hiraishin, besides he already said when he used Gojō Kibaku Fuda that it was the first time he used that technique with his own body, that means that he already used it, but with the body of the shinobi he reincarnates.


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## P3IN (Aug 28, 2013)

By shown feats I'd rank him above/next to KCM naruto, he's indeed becoming quite overrated  

Tobirama  practically doesn't have enough feats to rank or judge him accurately..idk ..


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## Vicotex (Aug 28, 2013)

Kishi is cheating on tobirama base on plot, he should have flooded the battlefield with water but kishi's plot didn't allow him. i still rank him *''S - Kage'' rank*


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