# Itachi vs EMS Sasuke



## JuicyG (Dec 23, 2014)

Distance: 50 meters

Intel: Full

Mindset: IC

Restrictions: PS Last Resort , Koto, Crow, Izanami

SC1: Living Itachi using living feats
SC2: Edo Itachi , edo feats are usable


----------



## RedChidori (Dec 23, 2014)

Sauce wins via PS after an insanely long fight in both scenarios.


----------



## Krippy (Dec 23, 2014)

Sauce mid diff scenario 1 and high diff scenario 2.


----------



## Ghost (Dec 23, 2014)

Sasuke mid diff. Itachi can't really do much to him.


----------



## Arles Celes (Dec 23, 2014)

Sasuke already broke Tsukuyomi in his much weaker Hebi days, his Amaterasu usage is superior with Enton shape changing and his EMS perception should be superior to Itachi's MS perception. Sasuke also got plenty of skill with raitons and his PS is much stronger than Itachi's Susanoo. Itachi's only jutsus apart from MS are a regular katon fireball, flaming shurikens and kage bunshins which he can hardly spam.

Itachi is smarter and PERHAPS still better at genjutsu at that point but just being more intelligent will not make up in the sheer power difference. And if Tsukuyomi won't work then Itachi's possible genjutsu superiority won't be for much.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 23, 2014)

EMS Sasuke low-mid difficulty IMO.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Dec 23, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Sasuke already broke Tsukuyomi in his much weaker Hebi days, his Amaterasu usage is superior with Enton shape changing and his EMS perception should be superior to Itachi's MS perception. Sasuke also got plenty of skill with raitons and his PS is much stronger than Itachi's Susanoo. Itachi's only jutsus apart from MS are a regular katon fireball, flaming shurikens and kage bunshins which he can hardly spam.
> 
> Itachi is smarter and PERHAPS still better at genjutsu at that point but just being more intelligent will not make up in the sheer power difference. And if Tsukuyomi won't work then Itachi's possible genjutsu superiority won't be for much.


He didn't break it, nor was it a serious Tsukuyomi. 

His serious Tsukuyomi lasts 1 second and feels like 72 hours, it literally cannot be broken, the mind won't be aware that it's in a Genjutsu by the time it's ended and implemented serious mental fatigue. People literally cannot solve a 14+19=? answer in one second, no one, in my opinion, is effectively deducing that they're in and then breaking Itachi's most powerful Genjutsu in less than a second. 

For some odd reason, Itachi was playing a fake scenario out in Sasuke's head with Tsukuyomi that lasted less than 5 minutes in the illusion, and even then, the guy was panting on the ground sweating after his so-called "breaking of Tsukuyomi", it literally still inflicted fatigue on his body and brought him to his knees.


Itachi was playing that out the entire time, if he brought Sasuke to his knees he could have easily just thrown a kunai into his brain before he stood up, and we know his intention was not to actually hurt him at all- which is why the "breaking of Tsukuyomi" and his "You.. You broke my Tsukuyomi!" was general bullshit. He had no reason to feel reluctant that his beloved little brother broke his Genjutsu. 

As far as Edo Itachi is concerned, he won't feel any after effects whatsoever, if he brings Sasuke to his knees for a moment, he literally has a 100% chance to defeat him, as he won't be holding his eye saying "You broke my Tsukuyomi", he'll be stabbing him in the face.


----------



## Blu-ray (Dec 23, 2014)

None of their genjutsu will affect the other, and both will just block each others techniques with Susano'o. Neither can bust open the others Susano'o either. The one who loses is the one who tires first, and that one will be Itachi.


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 23, 2014)

EMS Sasuke >>>>> Itachi with Perfect Susanoo and Enton:Kagutsuchi.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 23, 2014)

Itachi's Tsukyomi doesn't even matter. Sasuke used Sharingan genjutsu while Itachi used MS genjutsu against Kabuto which would imply that Sasuke's genjutsu could potentially be greater than Itachi's.


----------



## Raiken (Dec 23, 2014)

Sasuke's PS with just EMS is featless. Sasuke's feats against Obito are all while using or combining with Naruto's Chakra, which also have to be taken with a grain of salt. Something a lot of people fail to take into account.

People often automatically give him EMS Madara Susano'o feats, except scaled down. Except Madara's a Chakra beast compared to Sasuke, so it's not fair to compare their respective Susano'o feats at all. 
Or they use a scaled down version of Tomoe-Rinnegan Sasuke's Susano'o feats, which is even further bullshit.

EMS Sasuke isn't as much above MS Itachi as many think when using the actual feats.
However, I still believe Sasuke is victorious in scenario 1, not so sure about 2.


----------



## Altair21 (Dec 23, 2014)

Sauce takes scenario 1 with low-mid difficulty and scenario 2 with mid-high difficulty.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Dec 24, 2014)

Kirin hits Itachi's Susanoo, does enough damage that Sasuke can use his Armored Susanoo to break through whatever is left, and then he kills Itachi. If that doesn't work, Perfect Susanoo one shots in the end.


----------



## Bonly (Dec 24, 2014)

Itachi likely gets outlasted and beat in scenario one while Edo Itachi manages to pull out the win in scenario two


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 25, 2014)

Itachi spits Suiton on the ground and then gores Sasuke's legs with water drills inside his Susano'o. No difficulty, both scenarios.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 26, 2014)

^
What he said. Susano'o can't guard against attacks coming from below


----------



## Trojan (Dec 26, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> He didn't break it, nor was it a serious Tsukuyomi.
> 
> His serious Tsukuyomi lasts 1 second and feels like 72 hours, it literally cannot be broken, the mind won't be aware that it's in a Genjutsu by the time it's ended and implemented serious mental fatigue. People literally cannot solve a 14+19=? answer in one second, no one, in my opinion, is effectively deducing that they're in and then breaking Itachi's most powerful Genjutsu in less than a second.
> 
> ...



He did break it according the Databook.


****
Sasuke fodderstomps in scenario 1 low difficult.

itachi wins scenario 2 since Sasuke can't seal him.


----------



## CaptainCommanderRenji (Dec 26, 2014)

Sasuke wins scenario 1 due to Itachi's lower chakra pool.

In scenario 2, I'm assuming Itachi can't keep susanoo active at all times and regenerate chakra at the same time. Once his chakra runs out, he has to regenerate it back to full in base. 

Sasuke wins scenario 2.


----------



## ARGUS (Dec 26, 2014)

Sasuke wins scenario 1 mid diff and wins scenario 2 high diff


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 26, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> He didn't break it, nor was it a serious Tsukuyomi.


Yet the manga says and shows tat he broke it. And it was a serious Tsukuyomi, Tsukuyomi always has the same outcome. Also Sasuke has been hit by Tsukuyomi more than any other ninja, if Itachi was pulling his punches with it Sasuke would've noticed.


> His serious Tsukuyomi lasts 1 second and feels like 72 hours, it literally cannot be broken, the mind won't be aware that it's in a Genjutsu by the time it's ended and implemented serious mental fatigue. People literally cannot solve a 14+19=? answer in one second, no one, in my opinion, is effectively deducing that they're in and then breaking Itachi's most powerful Genjutsu in less than a second.


You are so full of shit. 
Tsukuyomi last 1 second but seems like 72 hours, it can be broken within the seemingly 72 hours.

The mind is aware it is in a genjutsu as it clearly changes the entire environment to such a drastic effect.

Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi just shows how much above he is compared to Itachi in sharigan mastery.


> For some odd reason, Itachi was playing a fake scenario out in Sasuke's head with Tsukuyomi that lasted less than 5 minutes in the illusion, and even then, the guy was panting on the ground sweating after his so-called "breaking of Tsukuyomi", it literally still inflicted fatigue on his body and brought him to his knees.


It causes mental fatigue not physical fatigue.


> Itachi was playing that out the entire time, if he brought Sasuke to his knees he could have easily just thrown a kunai into his brain before he stood up, and we know his intention was not to actually hurt him at all- which is why the "breaking of Tsukuyomi" and his "You.. You broke my Tsukuyomi!" was general bullshit. He had no reason to feel reluctant that his beloved little brother broke his Genjutsu.


Yet Itachi was surprised and had been telling Sasuke that he is no match without MS, which Itachi told him to face him when he has the same eyes.
Link removed

look at that surprise

and here to
Link removed


And Zetsu explained why Sasuke was able to overcome Tsukuyomi
Link removed

Also I believe Itachi used all his kunais and shurikens agaisnt Sasuke just prior to Tsukuyomi. He didn't use any more in the battle. 





> As far as Edo Itachi is concerned, he won't feel any after effects whatsoever, if he brings Sasuke to his knees for a moment, he literally has a 100% chance to defeat him, as he won't be holding his eye saying "You broke my Tsukuyomi", he'll be stabbing him in the face.



While I do agree this is EMS Sasuke. If 3 tomoe sharingan could break Tsukuyomi Sasuke fucking laughs at it with EMS. Also proven that Susanoo protects against powerful sharingan genjutsu.


Sasuke murderstomps Itachi 10/10 no-mid diff.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 28, 2014)

In the first scenario, EMS Sasuke will just outlast Itachi.
Edo Itachi ultimately outlasts EMS Sasuke. Even if he's given sealing tags, he won't be able to breach Susano'o. 
His version of PS is basically equal to Itachi's V4, so it ultimately comes down to stamina.


----------



## Sans (Dec 28, 2014)

Itachi can beat the version of Sasuke he fought with against Kabuto.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 28, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> Itachi can beat the version of Sasuke he fought with against Kabuto.


No, he really can't. Sasuke outperforms Itachi in every area.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 28, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> In the first scenario, EMS Sasuke will just outlast Itachi.
> Edo Itachi ultimately outlasts EMS Sasuke. Even if he's given sealing tags, he won't be able to breach Susano'o.
> * His version of PS is basically equal to Itachi's V4, so it ultimately comes down to stamina.*



 How did you come up with that conclusion?


----------



## Bloo (Dec 28, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, he really can't. Sasuke outperforms Itachi in every area.


Edō Itachi has EMS Sasuke (at the point in time of the Kabuto fight) beat in taijutsu, intelligence, genjutsu, and Susano'o (if Perfect Susano'o is restricted). At the point of the Kabuto battle, Edō Itachi had Sasuke beat in almost every category aside from attrition.

When he joined Naruto in the war and he developed his Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan even further, that's when he began to surpass Edō Itachi.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 28, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> How did you come up with that conclusion?



EMS Sasuke has neither the feats nor chakra reserves to manifest Perfect Susano'o on Madara's level. He might have a slight advantage in strength over Itachi's V4 with his PS, but Itachi has the slight advantage in hax through Totsuka/Yata.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 28, 2014)

Sasuke doesn't have perfect Susanoo, only Madara does.

THe DB, take it for what you think of it, list the only user of PS as Madara. Also Madara had to stabilize his Susanoo to perfect it, Sasuke never not one time stabilized his Susanoo.

Enton takes care of Itachi's Susanoo.

Sasuke wins this though. His enton abilities give him a clear cut advantage and can overwhelm Itachi's Susanoo and eat through it.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 28, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Sasuke doesn't have perfect Susanoo, only Madara does.



Exactly. He's got his own version that appears to resemble Madara's own in some ways, but it's not anywhere near that level regarding power.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 28, 2014)

I just chop it up as the DB collaborates that Madara was the only user of PS, and had to stabilize his. Sasuke never not one time stabilized his version therfore it wasn't perfected. Also Madara has a much bigger chakra pool than Sasuke.



Bloo said:


> Edō Itachi has EMS Sasuke (at the point in time of the Kabuto fight) beat in taijutsu, intelligence, genjutsu, and Susano'o (if Perfect Susano'o is restricted). At the point of the Kabuto battle, Edō Itachi had Sasuke beat in almost every category aside from attrition.
> 
> When he joined Naruto in the war and he developed his Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan even further, that's when he began to surpass Edō Itachi.



I would give Taijutsu to Itachi, but the others? As if.

Genjutsu- Hebi Sauce broke Tsukuyomi already, no idea how bad he trashes it with EMS. You can say all you want, but the point is that Itachi was surprised by Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi. IF he wanted or knew Sasuke would/could break Tsukuyomi then he wouldn't have been surprised.

Intelligence- I would have to give it to Sasuke, he has shown to become a quite bit smarter since the Bee fight, Itachi has never shown any great intelligence feats.

Oh and about Susanoo- Sasuke has a long ranged attack, as well as a defense(the bow) and has enton coated weapons. Sasuke was able to manifest Enton alongside Susanoo which gives him superiority.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 28, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I would give Taijutsu to Itachi, but the others? As if.


I'm actually shocked at this.



> Genjutsu- Hebi Sauce broke Tsukuyomi already, no idea how bad he trashes it with EMS. You can say all you want, but the point is that Itachi was surprised by Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi. IF he wanted or knew Sasuke would/could break Tsukuyomi then he wouldn't have been surprised.


Itachi was playing around. If you think he was going for a kill, you need to pay close attention to Tobi's explanation of the situation. Even with that feat (which is debatable in many ways), Sasuke's feats with genjutsu execution is miles beneath Itachi. Sasuke did surpass him when he got Rinnegan, obviously. But, before then, Sasuke never showed any proficiency with actually using it in combat.



> Intelligence- I would have to give it to Sasuke, he has shown to become a quite bit smarter since the Bee fight, Itachi has never shown any great intelligence feats.





*Spoiler*: _As does the Databook_ 




Itachi: 5
Sasuke: 3.5






> Oh and about Susanoo- Sasuke has a long ranged attack, as well as a defense(the bow) and has enton coated weapons. Sasuke was able to manifest Enton alongside Susanoo which gives him superiority.


Itachi has long a ranged attack - Yasaka Magatama.
Itachi's has a legendary defense - Yata Mirror.
Itachi's has a legendary offense - Totsuka No Tsurugi.

Anything Sasuke's Susano'o can do, Itachi's can do better (except ranged attacks, we have no way to compare those since they're entirely difference, explosive vs. piercing).

What does the enton feat have to do with anything? Susano'o doesn't restrict you from using other jutsu when it's activated...


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 29, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> EMS Sasuke has neither the feats nor chakra reserves to manifest Perfect Susano'o on Madara's level. He might have a slight advantage in strength over Itachi's V4 with his PS, but Itachi has the slight advantage in hax through Totsuka/Yata.



 Totsuka is outclassed by Amaterasu Sword. Give me one example where V4 Susanoo's Totsuka Blade was on par with Sasuke's V3 Susanoo Amaterasu Sword that cut through the Juubi's defenses like butter.

 That's right, Totsuka Blade has none. V3 Susanoo w/ Cursed Seal was on par with BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar (at the time) and even EMS Sasuke was keeping track of Juubito's movements, same as BSM Naruto.

 Sasuke's Unstabilized Perfect Susanoo isn't on par with Madara's Susanoo, but that doesn't help much considering Itachi's V4 Susanoo has no durability feats on par with Madara's Susanoo anyways. 

 There's also the fact that Itachi's Susanoo lacks mobility and lacks any ranged attacks which doesn't help your case at all. Sasuke's Susanoo is already fast enough to the point where Juubito wasn't dodging all of his moves. That alone implies he can get out of Itachi's V4 Susanoo's range and just blast him with a good Kirin or simply blitz him with Amaterasu Sword whenever he wants.

 Edit: There is Yasaka Magatama, but we've witnessed its feats aren't impressive at all. It only covered a small radius which even SM Kabuto wasn't overwhelmed by it. Funny how Susanoo Arrow was meant to kill which is why Itachi didn't want him to use it directly on Kabuto while Itachi didn't hesitate using Magatama at all. Honestly, Sasuke could've done better than Edo Itachi did against Kabuto if Itachi didn't restrict Sasuke from killing Kabuto.

without a source

 Here's magatama's feats. Not very impressive when you think about it.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 29, 2014)

From Sasuke's Databook.



> -> Implanting Itachi?s eyes, the Mangekyo Sharingan, giving an eternal light that was turned on, which also surpassed his older brother?s ninjutsu and doujutsu.





Bloo

that scan is translated in a wrong way. O_O
http: // im64. gulfup . com/IXZx7W . png
(Take out all the spaces) 
Though I suppose they mean the same thing. lol

If you couldn't for some reason Viz translation states
BZ: heh...you seem to be denser than itachi...


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 29, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> Totsuka is outclassed by Amaterasu Sword. Give me one example where V4 Susanoo's Totsuka Blade was on par with Sasuke's V3 Susanoo Amaterasu Sword that cut through the Juubi's defenses like butter.



Totsuka has feats of sealing Edo Nagato before a defense was erected, which weighs more than Sasuke cutting through Juubi defenses with his sword. The legendary weapons were hyped by Kaguya's own will; they're more powerful than you think.



> That's right, Totsuka Blade has none. V3 Susanoo w/ Cursed Seal was on par with BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar (at the time) and even EMS Sasuke was keeping track of Juubito's movements, same as BSM Naruto.



Nothing short of PS is tanking Naruto's Senpou: Super Bijuudama. Maybe EMS Sasuke can tank a regular one in V3, but he's getting consumed by BSM Naruto.

Are you implying that EMS Sasuke w/ V3 Susano'o (Cursed Seal) is on par with BSM Naruto overall? Or they're on par in merely brute strength? Both statements are incorrect, as Naruto's Sage Mode would enhance his strength within Bijuu Mode. Regularly, I would agree that V3 Susano'o (Cured Seal) is equal to Naruto's BM without Sage Mode.

And, if I'm not mistaken, EMS Sasuke was still being powered by Naruto's chakra in that instance. So he might even be marginally stronger than Naruto's regular avatar. But that's not the point.

You're also making statements as if EMS Sasuke is some kind of invincible entity. You do realize that Naruto and Sasuke had immense plot on their side when people like Edo Minato and Edo Tobirama were getting fodderized by Juubito, right?

At the point we're speaking of, Edo Minato is stronger than EMS Sasuke and would probably defeat him with high difficulty.



> Sasuke's Unstabilized Perfect Susanoo isn't on par with Madara's Susanoo, but that doesn't help much considering Itachi's V4 Susanoo has no durability feats on par with Madara's Susanoo anyways.



Yes. And it doesn't help Sasuke very much, either; he doesn't have durability feats on par with Madara's PS. Neither combatant will breach Susano'o without significant difficulty. And Living Itachi simply dies from exhaustion before Sasuke actually gets the chance to get through.



> There's also the fact that Itachi's Susanoo lacks mobility



Susano'o is the ultimate defense; it doesn't matter if the structure can move or not, unless the other combatant has enough power to completely bust it. Sasuke's own variant didn't have that kind of strength until he gained power from Rikudou Sennin.



> and lacks any ranged attacks which doesn't help your case at all



Yasaka no Magatama happens to be a ranged attack; it was used alongside Bijuudama and FRS to destroy Chibaku Tensei. I can provide a panel if need be.



> Sasuke's Susanoo is already fast enough to the point where Juubito wasn't dodging all of his moves.



And Edo Itachi was also predicting Sage Kabuto at points when Sasuke didn't. Their difference in reaction timing is minimal when Itachi is just smarter and will use his brain to predict that next step; that ability enables him to react just as well as Sasuke, if not better. Sasuke never gained an indefinite advantage over Edo Itachi until he unlocked his Rinnegan. Essentially, Itachi will just predict Sasuke's movements like he did to Kabuto and react accordingly. 



> That alone implies he can get out of Itachi's V4 Susanoo's range and just blast him with a good Kirin or simply blitz him with Amaterasu Sword whenever he wants.



Does EMS Sasuke have any feats that suggest he can focus on destroying Itachi's V4 Susano'o with his own while using Kirin simultaneously? Let alone running around with his legged form?

Maybe he can do all of that while sitting idly in his Susano'o. But Itachi simply blocks Kirin with Yata no Kagami in that case.

If you actually think Yasaka no Magatama is equal to explosive tags, you're delusional. 
Sounds like something that would come out of SSM12's mouth. It was merely a parallel of their teamwork in the past. If anything, it just shows how much they've grown. 

Why would Itachi use something that's equivalent to explosive tags beside Bijuudama and FRS?


----------



## Trojan (Dec 29, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> If you actually think Yasaka no Magatama is equal to explosive tags, you're delusional.
> Sounds like something that would come out of SSM12's mouth. It was merely a parallel of their teamwork in the past. If anything, it just shows how much they've grown.
> 
> Why would Itachi use something that's equivalent to explosive tags beside Bijuudama and FRS?



Because it's his strongest Long-Range jutsu. itachi is mainly a short-range fighter, and doing something is still better than doing nothing. The Yasaka no Magatama does not have any higher feats. Unless you can show their power of course.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Because it's his strongest Long-Range jutsu. itachi is mainly a short-range fighter, and doing something is still better than doing nothing. The Yasaka no Magatama does not have any higher feats. Unless you can show their power of course.



So are you going to argue that Sasuke's puny arrow in the flashback is equal to his Susano'o variant?


----------



## Trojan (Dec 29, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> So are you going to argue that Sasuke's puny arrow in the flashback is equal to his Susano'o variant?



When that puny arrow can cut through a human (Danzo) then yes, why not? 
the thing is, the Yasaka were always putted along side Kunais. 

Regardless, ignore that, what are the feats that you have of them other than that panel with Kabuto?
Or even hype if you want...


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 29, 2014)

Unless it goes through the head or vital areas, Sasuke's puny one isn't going to kill Danzou or severely maim him without Izanagi. His Susano'o variant is going to kill Danzou if the thing isn't stopped by his Mokuton. 

That scaling can be applied to Yasaka no Magatama. There's simply no way it should be compared to explosive tags when the flashback arrow is much weaker than one that's created in Susano'o.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 29, 2014)

- Yes, and that's why his Susanoo's arrow is much stronger than toy arrow. 
- As I already told you, Sasuke's arrow has feats and hype to suggest otherwise. the Yasaka does not, and that's
precisely the reason to why you couldn't bring anything to show its power. 

Even when madara used them on chapter 628, they did not show any more power than that. Even though Madara is several tiers above itachi, and his EMS/Rinnegan is far superior to itachi's MS as well.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 29, 2014)

Madara's Yasaka no Magatama wasn't more powerful than Itachi's; his Susano'o was just capable of creating more projectiles. It still managed to get through Gaara's sand and damage part of Oonoki's Doton. That sand was blocking Deidara's explosions to some extent, which would imply that Yasaka isn't as weak as you're saying.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 29, 2014)

Having the EMS does make the jutsus stronger obviously. Not to mention Madara, like Sasuke, is and Indra's reincarnation. Itachi is no such thing. 

Also, as the Databook statement I posted, it conforms that Sasuke's EMS surpasses his brother. To be frank, 
Sasuke was already stated to be better than itachi since MS. Hebi Sasuke can give itachi a high difficult fight. 
That is good as he goes.

the Yasaka is not much of a factor really.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 29, 2014)

EMS gives you unending light and access to something called Perfect Susano'o that Sasuke couldn't use on Madara's level until he gained Rinnegan. I still think Madara's PS is stronger than Rikudou Sasuke's version,  but that's not the point we're trying to get across.

They're the greater set of eyes because of unending light and Perfect Susano'o. Nothing suggests that a huge difference between single magatama exists.

You never see Madara using Yasaka no Magtama with Perfect Susano'o, right?
No, he's uses slashes from his sword, as they're more powerful than the magatama; however, nothing suggests that Madara's Susano'o (before PS) is stronger than Itachi's V4 at ridiculous levels, and that's when he uses those projectiles. At smaller levels of Susano'o

I see no apparent difference between their magatama, other than the fact that Madara can make far more of them with his Susano'o. Quite frankly, I think the parallel in the fight against Kabuto is ample evidence.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 29, 2014)

- Even if his PS does not have much feats, it's obvious that he is stronger than itachi's. As for his PS in general, I agree. :rofl 

- Sasuke can use those magatama with Enton to say the least. 
- He never uses them with his PS, and that's why I said they are not much of a factor. 

- This "apparent" is one of the arguments I hate in all honestly because it leads to dumb conclusion almost all of the time. Example, Karin's chains look identical to Kushina's, but we know for a fact that they are not as strong. Same with Tobirama's FTG and Minato's. Oro's ET, and Kabuto's, the 3rd Raikage's armour, and A's....etc 

appearance is not proof of anything at all from my perspective. 


Also, let's say for the sake of the argument that their Yasaka are at least equal, how is that helping itachi with anything at all to win here?


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - Even if his PS does not have much feats, it's obvious that he is stronger than itachi's.



That's not my point. I stated that Sasuke's PS (before Rikudou) isn't powerful enough to bust Itachi's Susano'o. In fact, neither of their forms have enough strength to accomplish that. Susano'o has defense that's stronger than its offense, so there would need to be a huge gap between their forms for one version to outperform the other without trouble.



> As for his PS in general, I agree. :rofl



That's good!



> - Sasuke can use those magatama with Enton to say the least.



He can. But I don't see how it makes any difference; it's not going to break through Susano'o.



> - He never uses them with his PS, and that's why I said they are not much of a factor.



If you're talking about arrows, I agree that Sasuke wouldn't use arrows with PS; he'd try to bash Itachi's Susano'o with his sword, which isn't doing anything and will burn through his chakra faster. 

As for Madara? There's simply no point when he reaches most ranges with his sword, considering the size of his construct is massive.



> - This "apparent" is one of the arguments I hate in all honestly because it leads to dumb conclusion almost all of the time. Example, Karin's chains look identical to Kushina's, but we know for a fact that they are not as strong. Same with Tobirama's FTG and Minato's. Oro's ET, and Kabuto's, the 3rd Raikage's armour, and A's....etc
> 
> appearance is not proof of anything at all from my perspective.



Different concept altogether. 
Portrayal indicates that Itachi's Yasaka no Magatama is stronger than explosive tags when Sasuke's arrow variant from Susano'o is seen in the same light.

Unless you think the power of one's chakra plays a difference in the strength of magatama, there's no huge difference between Itachi's and Madara's (other than numbers).

But, even if that's the case, they're still capable of getting through Gaara's sand that was called the ultimate defense at different times without any trouble. Itachi's version, at the very least, should be capable of just as much, unless you think there's a night-and-day difference between the two that makes Itachi's V3/V4 complete fodder compared to Madara's V3 (was it?) in overall power.



> Also, let's say for the sake of the argument that their Yasaka are at least equal, how is that helping itachi with anything at all to win here?



I stated that Edo Itachi would outlast EMS Sasuke and lose in his living form. 
I've been agreeing that arrows and magatama aren't doing anything to Susano'o. What I'm trying to get across is the notion that Yasaka no Magatama isn't as weak as people are saying.

EMS Sasuke's only technique that can bust Susano'o is Kirin, but it can be tanked with Yata no Kagami strengthened by Itachi's Wind Release.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 29, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Edō Itachi has EMS Sasuke (at the point in time of the Kabuto fight) beat in taijutsu, intelligence, genjutsu, and Susano'o (if Perfect Susano'o is restricted). At the point of the Kabuto battle, Edō Itachi had Sasuke beat in almost every category aside from attrition.


In the Kabuto fight, Sasuke saved Itachi three times to Itachi's two saves of Sasuke. Taijutsu? Sasuke is at Itachi's level if not above it. Intelligence? Yeah, using a asspull move like Izanami is a great strategy! Genjutsu? EMS>MS, so no. Susano'o? Sasuke has better feats with it even without Perfect Susano'o.


> When he joined Naruto in the war and he developed his Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan even further, that's when he began to surpass Edō Itachi.


Kishimoto himself said Sasuke with the EMS automatically was superior to Edo Itachi, or Itachi period.


IchLiebe said:


> I just chop it up as the DB collaborates that Madara was the only user of PS, and had to stabilize his. Sasuke never not one time stabilized his version therfore it wasn't perfected. Also Madara has a much bigger chakra pool than Sasuke.


Madara's perfect Susano'o

Sasuke's perfect Susano'o.

That's an oversight in the databook, IchLiebe.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 29, 2014)

Bloo said:


> I'm actually shocked at this.


And?





> Itachi was playing around. If you think he was going for a kill, you need to pay close attention to Tobi's explanation of the situation. Even with that feat (which is debatable in many ways), Sasuke's feats with genjutsu execution is miles beneath Itachi. Sasuke did surpass him when he got Rinnegan, obviously. But, before then, Sasuke never showed any proficiency with actually using it in combat.


And this shows your ignorance.

Itachi beat into Itachi's head that he couldn't beat him without the same eyes. Itachi said it over and over. Yes he wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, but could incapacitate him. Sasuke has taken multiple Tsukuyomis, if anyone would know that Itachi half assed it, it would be him. But no, Itachi was utterly surprised that he did it. ANd then Zetsu continues to say that master with a rock beats a rookie with a gun(or however he put it).

Maybe he didn't abuse it like Itachi did, but he did use genjutsu in multiple battles. Deidara, Itachi, Bee, Raikage C Darui, Danzo...and thats before EMS.

Oh look can't even got get a fucking scan, your pathetic. And no where in that did it say anything about Sasuke.


> *Spoiler*: _As does the Databook_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I asked for feats not Databook bullshit.



> Itachi has long a ranged attack - Yasaka Magatama.
> Itachi's has a legendary defense - Yata Mirror.
> Itachi's has a legendary offense - Totsuka No Tsurugi.


Itachi's magatama have comparable power to explosive tags. Yata is useless as it can be bypassed with Enton. Totsuka is useless, won't pierce Sasuke.


> Anything Sasuke's Susano'o can do, Itachi's can do better (except ranged attacks, we have no way to compare those since they're entirely difference, explosive vs. piercing).
> 
> What does the enton feat have to do with anything? Susano'o doesn't restrict you from using other jutsu when it's activated...


Itachi never showed the proficiency to use two MS techniques at one time, much less have 2 ms techniques collaborating together.


SuperSaiyaMan- Sasuke never one time had to stabilize his Susanoo, which Madara had to do to make it perfected.

Also that was after he received the Rinnegan was it not.
Sasuke's perfect Susano'o.

Sasuke does have a large Susanoo, but thats where the comparisons stop. 
You showed Sasuke's 'perfect' Susanoo's destructive capacity against the meteors...here is Madara's destructive capacity
Sasuke's perfect Susano'o.

Sasuke had to use multiple slashes.


Is that a meteor that Madara's Susanoo is dwarfing?
Sasuke's perfect Susano'o.

Because if it is, that shows how much larger Madara's is compared to Sasuke's as Sasuke's wasn't bigger than the meteors.
Sasuke's perfect Susano'o.


lol go to chapter 588 on that site, its fucking Kabuto being put under a genjutsu.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi beat into Itachi's head that he couldn't beat him without the same eyes. Itachi said it over and over. Yes he wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, but could incapacitate him. Sasuke has taken multiple Tsukuyomis, if anyone would know that Itachi half assed it, it would be him. But no, Itachi was utterly surprised that he did it. ANd then Zetsu continues to say that master with a rock beats a rookie with a gun(or however he put it).


Itachi bullshitted that fight. Itachi acted out being surprised. This is support by both the plot and the manga itself. I'm not explaining this further. Your logic is reaching for points that just simply aren't there.



> Maybe he didn't abuse it like Itachi did, but he did use genjutsu in multiple battles. Deidara, Itachi, Bee, Raikage C Darui, Danzo...and thats before EMS.


And all of those feats do not stack up against Itachi's.



> Oh look can't even got get a fucking scan, your pathetic. And no where in that did it say anything about Sasuke.


Why would I need a scan. Unless you're that mentally challenged and short of memory that you need the entire scan to remember what's going on, there is no reason for me to need to provide one for you to get the context. But, if you need one, I'll provide it to help you out. And Zetsu was speaking directly to Sasuke. It is a direct comparison to Itachi and Sasuke.
Sasuke's perfect Susano'o.



> I asked for feats not Databook bullshit.


Feats? Okay, planning out the entire battle between Sasuke and Itachi and putting on a convincing enough of a show that Sasuke (and people like you) actually believe that Itachi was going all out during it and trying to steal Sasuke's eyes. Planning out how to kill Orochimaru. Figuring out shared vision when he fought Nagato shorter than anyone else had.

Itachi's intelligence is some of the most hyped in the entire manga. Sasuke's is not. Gaara has more impressive intelligence feats than Sasuke.



> Itachi's magatama have comparable power to explosive tags.


That's not true. We just don't know exactly how powerful it is. It's hard to gage, yes.



> Yata is useless as it can be bypassed with Enton.


I see no scan (or image) or quote from the manga that supports this bullshit stretch of a point. There is nothing that suggests this. In fact, the manga and databook both state that Yata mirror changes its properties to negate any attack, nothing in there states Enton is an exception.


> Totsuka is useless, won't pierce Sasuke.


Why won't it pierce Sasuke? Because you don't want it to? Provide a scan, quote, anything to back that up because it makes no sense. Furthermore, Totsuka no Tsurugi has no physical form, with that in mind it should be able to pierce through anything to seal.



> Itachi never showed the proficiency to use two MS techniques at one time, much less have 2 ms techniques collaborating together.


Omg, this argument again? Your points are so desperate. He's never had a reason to use two MS jutsu at the same time. That doesn't mean he can't when commonplace logic suggests otherwise. I will say, he did use Amaterasu and Susano'o at the same time in a game that Kishimoto was working with (Storm Revolution). Outside of that, Itachi had no reason to use two MS techniques at the same time.


----------



## Zef (Dec 29, 2014)

Sasuke summons Aoda GG.

Sasuke summons hawk, and fires Susano'o arrows from above GG.

Sasuke takes both scenarios low - med diff.


----------



## Hexa (Dec 29, 2014)

Madara shot individual Yasaka projectiles that were capable of completely piercing through Gaara's ultimate-defense Karura sand wall, continuing on, and almost piercing through Oonoki's rock golem.

Itachi's strongest Yasaka was three projectiles connected together to make a sharingan-type pattern.  Since we didn't see what it was capable of alone, we don't really know what it's capable of doing.   First guess should be that it's three-times stronger than Madara's individual magatama, since those magatama seemed similar in size to the individual Yasaka making up Itachi's triple Yasaka.  I don't know if it would be capable of piercing perfect Susano'o.  Lesser forms of Susano'o, I think, it'll break.


----------



## Blu-ray (Dec 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> SuperSaiyaMan- Sasuke never one time had to stabilize his Susanoo, which Madara had to do to make it perfected.



That makes no sense whatsoever. We see him in the perfected form, which means that he stabilized it.



> Also that was after he received the Rinnegan was it not.
> Sasuke's perfect Susano'o.



Madara himself never showed that Susano'o with just EMS alone, only with Rinnegan. EMS Madara only ever demonstrated the Kyuubi wrap, just like EMS Sasuke, and only demonstrated the humanoid version with Rinnegan, just like Sasuke. If it's evident to you that Madara could use that form with EMS alone despite never actually showing it, then it should be apparent with Sasuke as well.



> Sasuke does have a large Susanoo, but thats where the comparisons stop.
> You showed Sasuke's 'perfect' Susanoo's destructive capacity against the meteors...here is Madara's destructive capacity
> Sasuke's perfect Susano'o.



They have the same exact attire and weaponry. You'd have to be blind to say that's where the comparison stops.

Madara's cut through mountains. Sasuke cut through satellites so huge, that even when cut apart the _*rubble*_ still dwarfed a mountain range. It should be obvious that the CT Sasuke cut are bigger than the meteor Edo Mads called down.



> Sasuke had to use multiple slashes.



He cut it clean in two with just one slash, and further diced those two halves. That kinda trounces cutting mountain tops.



> Is that a meteor that Madara's Susanoo is dwarfing?
> Sasuke's perfect Susano'o.
> 
> Because if it is, that shows how much larger Madara's is compared to Sasuke's as Sasuke's wasn't bigger than the meteors.
> ...



Or you know, it shows just how much the bigger the CT meteors are than the ones Edo Mads called down.



Bloo said:


> Why won't it pierce Sasuke? Because you don't want it to? Provide a scan, quote, anything to back that up because it makes no sense.



It hasn't exactly shown itself capable of hitting something faster than a cripple, or a giant slow moving target, and hasn't shown the cutting power to pierce something more than flesh.

Obviously it can, but asserting it can get past something as durable as Susano'o or hit someone as fast as Sasuke with his insane tracking speed, with no feats whatsoever is slightly pushing it.



> Furthermore, Totsuka no Tsurugi has no physical form, with that in mind it should be able to pierce through anything to seal.



It has never shown to phase through objects, but physically cut them. It is also held by Susano'o, a physical thing, meaning a Susano'o should also be able to physically block it.



> I will say, he did use Amaterasu and Susano'o at the same time in a game that Kishimoto was working with (Storm Revolution). Outside of that, Itachi had no reason to use two MS techniques at the same time.



That same game gave Muu the ability to use Jinton while split


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 29, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Itachi bullshitted that fight. Itachi acted out being surprised. This is support by both the plot and the manga itself. I'm not explaining this further. Your logic is reaching for points that just simply aren't there.



He looked pretty serious. Not killing=/=holding back. Itachi had to push Sasuke to his limit for Orochimaru to come out, if you believe Itachi planned for Orochimaru. He used all three MS jutsu yet held back so much right? If Kakashi uses Kamui 3 times and says he wasn't planning on killing then how much would you say he held back? Not much, just out of reach of a deathblow.



> And all of those feats do not stack up against Itachi's.



In your opinion. Sasuke has better subtle feats. Itachi has...Tsukiyomi which Sasuke has broke. Itachi and Zetsu both said he did. And Sasuke would know if it was half assed or if he was let out. 

BTW Itachi's feats don't stack up to Kakashi's. 



> Why would I need a scan. Unless you're that mentally challenged and short of memory that you need the entire scan to remember what's going on, there is no reason for me to need to provide one for you to get the context. But, if you need one, I'll provide it to help you out. And Zetsu was speaking directly to Sasuke. It is a direct comparison to Itachi and Sasuke.
> Atsui



Why post a fucking picture? There's no way you can't get a scan in the same if not less time than it takes to get a picture of that scan. And 9 times out of 10 the surrounding pages or panels proves you wrong when you post just a picture. And I'm fucking tired of people trying that shit.

And how does that prove Itachi's smarter? You think Itachi would know the zetsu process? No way.



> Feats? Okay, planning out the entire battle between Sasuke and Itachi and putting on a convincing enough of a show that Sasuke (and people like you) actually believe that Itachi was going all out during it and trying to steal Sasuke's eyes. Planning out how to kill Orochimaru. Figuring out shared vision when he fought Nagato shorter than anyone else had.



I'm not saying he was going all out. But he wasn't holding back as much as you say. Itachi had a better chance at figuring out shared vision as he could sit back and watch instead of fighting. Pa figured it out very quickly too. And Orochimaru is still alive.



> Itachi's intelligence is some of the most hyped in the entire manga. Sasuke's is not. Gaara has more impressive intelligence feats than Sasuke.



Sasuke's battle intelligence is short of only Kakashi, Tobirama(I'm not even sure, I'd have to reread the juubito fight but I think Tobirama did most of it.), and maybe Madara.



> That's not true. We just don't know exactly how powerful it is. It's hard to gage, yes.



We've seen explosive tags and we've seen his yagatama. They had the same output. Madara's first yagatama is the only one to have ever done something significant. His second use also looked exploding tag level against Tsunade.



> I see no scan (or image) or quote from the manga that supports this bullshit stretch of a point. There is nothing that suggests this. In fact, the manga and databook both state that Yata mirror changes its properties to negate any attack, nothing in there states Enton is an exception.



Yata has only blocked explosive tags. To say it takes Enton is a stretch.



> Why won't it pierce Sasuke? Because you don't want it to? Provide a scan, quote, anything to back that up because it makes no sense. Furthermore, Totsuka no Tsurugi has no physical form, with that in mind it should be able to pierce through anything to seal.



Because it hasn't shown to be able to get through susanoo lvl durability. And it is a physical form as it cuts shit.



> Omg, this argument again? Your points are so desperate. He's never had a reason to use two MS jutsu at the same time. That doesn't mean he can't when commonplace logic suggests otherwise. I will say, he did use Amaterasu and Susano'o at the same time in a game that Kishimoto was working with (Storm Revolution). Outside of that, Itachi had no reason to use two MS techniques at the same time.



Never has so he can't. And in that same game I beat Itachi with Tenten. It's a game .


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 29, 2014)

Hexa said:


> Madara shot individual Yasaka projectiles that were capable of completely piercing through Gaara's ultimate-defense Karura sand wall, continuing on, and almost piercing through Oonoki's rock golem.



 Okay, but that's Madara. Where is Itachi's feats with Yasaka projectiles? That's right, it doesn't even compare to Base Naruto's Rasengan used against Madara's Mokuton jutsu and that was from a clone who was running on only a burst of Kurama chakra.



> Itachi's strongest Yasaka was three projectiles connected together to make a sharingan-type pattern.  Since we didn't see what it was capable of alone, we don't really know what it's capable of doing.   First guess should be that it's three-times stronger than Madara's individual magatama, since those magatama seemed similar in size to the individual Yasaka making up Itachi's triple Yasaka.  I don't know if it would be capable of piercing perfect Susano'o.  Lesser forms of Susano'o, I think, it'll break.



 But each magatama couldn't do anything. It only covered a small radius against SM Kabuto.


----------



## Hexa (Dec 29, 2014)

Yasaka is a piercing attack.  Its radius of effect is about the size of the projectile itself. 

It's really good against one strongly defended target, but it's really bad against a large number of weaker targets.  It's that type of attack.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 29, 2014)

It hit Tsunade from point blank range and did nothing. She went flying but didn't even have to regen from the damage. It's not strong at all. Madara's first use was good. But every other time it sucked, like amaterasu.


----------



## Hexa (Dec 29, 2014)

When Madara used it against Tsunade, the Yasaka projectiles were comparatively tiny and did comparatively less.

It's not a weird manga inconsistency.  It's just that the attack can be used in different ways.


----------



## ShadowReaper (Dec 30, 2014)

Sasuke=BSM Naruto>Edo Itachi>Prime, living Itachi.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 30, 2014)

ShadowReaper said:


> *Sasuke=BSM Naruto>*Edo Itachi>Prime, living Itachi.



Cool story.


----------



## ShadowReaper (Dec 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Cool story.



Manga canon. EMS Sasuke has the perfect Susanoo(although that would weaker than the one empowered by natural chakra). He is better in Ninjutsu, has far better Amaterasu and he is completely immune to his genjutsu and just has superior eyes.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Dec 30, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> EMS Sasuke has neither the feats nor chakra reserves to manifest Perfect Susano'o on Madara's level. He might have a slight advantage in strength over Itachi's V4 with his PS, but Itachi has the slight advantage in hax through Totsuka/Yata.


One problem with that theory how was he able to manifest Perfect Susanoo after losing the Hagoromo seals since his chakra reserved hadn't changed barring that.

He always had the chakra reserves too use it so actually his Perfect Susanoo so his PS can be scaled too either Madara's PS or his Rikudou mode PS and he did manifest it on panel when he covered Naruto's Bijuu Mode.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 30, 2014)

ShadowReaper said:


> Manga canon. EMS Sasuke has the perfect Susanoo(although that would weaker than the one empowered by natural chakra). He is better in Ninjutsu, has far better Amaterasu and he is completely immune to his genjutsu and just has superior eyes.



Not sure if you are referring to itachi or Naruto here. If you mean itachi, then sure, MS Sasuke was already superior to him. If you mean Naruto, then lol, hell no.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 30, 2014)

Thdyingbreed said:


> One problem with that theory how was he able to manifest Perfect Susanoo after losing the Hagoromo seals since his chakra reserved hadn't changed barring that.


Hagoromo seals isn't what gave him that. The seals were only for sealing Kaguya. They retained the power as was said by Hagoromo.

Also Madara put out so much chakra that he had to stabilize it. No one has ever put out that much chakra, except maybe Naruto. 

Madara's katons alone show his exceptionally high chakra pool. Madara is the pinnacle of an Uchiha in all ways. He has shown things no other Sharingan user or Rinnegan user had before or has since.



> He always had the chakra reserves too use it so actually his Perfect Susanoo so his PS can be scaled too either Madara's PS or his Rikudou mode PS and he did manifest it on panel when he covered Naruto's Bijuu Mode.



He hasnt' always had the chakra reserves. 

Covering a bijuu isn't PS, thats just Susanoo formed on a bijuu.

We've clearly seen both of their Susanoos and the differences. Scaling isn't needed here and actually is illogical to even attempt to try and use. I will give it to you that he had a highly advanced Susanoo, but so did Kakashi with just 2 MS.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Not sure if you are referring to itachi or Naruto here. If you mean itachi, then sure, MS Sasuke was already superior to him. If you mean Naruto, then lol, hell no.



*MS* Sasuke was superior? Explain.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 30, 2014)

There is nothing to explain. Hebi Sasuke was able to counter all of itachi's jutsus. He was only helpless against
the Susanoo. MS Sasuke however has the susanoo, and he has more chakra than itachi which will give the win
eventually by outlasting his brother.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> There is nothing to explain. Hebi Sasuke was able to counter all of itachi's jutsus. He was only helpless against
> the Susanoo. MS Sasuke however has the susanoo, and he has more chakra than itachi which will give the win
> eventually by outlasting his brother.



Itachi was sick and wasnt all out on Sasuke.


----------



## pumkin1988 (Dec 30, 2014)

Itachi was never one to come out guns blazing like Sasuke with PS so obviously it was a last resort to him
Kinda unfair setup anyway since Sasuke is EMS meaning he has Itachi's eyes to begin with and undying light

Either way I see Itachi as a finesse character who always went for the fastest/easiest route to subdue an enemy

In SC1 I "can" see Itachi winning with feints/Genjutsu pretty easily (dem kunais) but if having EMS somehow grants him abilities to resist Itachi's amazing genjutsu prowess then I see Sasuke winning due to outlasting Itachi with his better healthy body. Sasuke will outlast Itachi if they stalemate (which I doubt) eventually

For Edo SC2 I only can see Itachi winning. Doubt Sasuke can seal Itachi and Itachi is super fast with seals & jutsu plus his PS abilities anyway

In truth EMS is pretty featless as a whole and we don't even know the full extent of what it does or was supposed to give. We know Sasuke said once he received them he emerged with newfound power/felt stronger but...then we see vs Kabuto then again with his eyes still bleeding...... doesn't seem like anything changed IMO except for the eyesight

Even in his last chapters Sasuke was still thinking of himself as always "catching up" to Itachi and Naruto. He obviously wasn't as intelligent at that time and power wise just had raw power. I believe even with all his powers he felt inferior battle wise to Itachi. Younger brother symptom and all. In this case it was true


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 31, 2014)

pumkin1988 said:


> Itachi was never one to come out guns blazing like Sasuke with PS so obviously it was a last resort to him
> Kinda unfair setup anyway since Sasuke is EMS meaning he has Itachi's eyes to begin with and undying light


Exactly so he will get quickly overwhelmed and overpowered and killed by a much more skilled and advanced shinobi than himself. Its not really Itachi's eyes. He gained none of Itachi's abilities from attaining EMS. MS Sasuke would give Itachi a run for his money. 





> Either way I see Itachi as a finesse character who always went for the fastest/easiest route to subdue an enemy


or runs away and hides





> In SC1 I "can" see Itachi winning with feints/Genjutsu pretty easily (dem kunais) but if having EMS somehow grants him abilities to resist Itachi's amazing genjutsu prowess then I see Sasuke winning due to outlasting Itachi with his better healthy body. Sasuke will outlast Itachi if they stalemate (which I doubt) eventually


Thats complete horseshit. Hebi Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi, Zetsu even said so and even commented on it. Now of course there is the argument that Itachi let him win, while that is true Itachi was forcing it into Sasuke's head that he needed MS to beat Itachi, mainly because of Tsukuyomi. Yet Itachi was surprised that Hebi Sasuke(3Tomoe Sharingan) broke it. And no matter what you say, tsukuyomi has the same effects and Sasuke has been hit by Tsukuyomi multiple times. Im sure he and Zetsu would know if Itachi had let Sasuke out, of which he didn't.

Sasuke can just fly around on his hawk, spam Amaterasu and Enton then hit with Kirin, then use Susanoo and go fight Itachi. 





> For Edo SC2 I only can see Itachi winning. Doubt Sasuke can seal Itachi and Itachi is super fast with seals & jutsu plus his PS abilities anyway I n truth EMS is pretty featless as a whole and we don't even know the full extent of what it does or was supposed to give. We know Sasuke said once he received them he emerged with newfound power/felt stronger but...then we see vs Kabuto then again with his eyes still bleeding...... doesn't seem like anything changed IMO except for the eyesight


Hebi Sasuke was able to disrupt his great hand seal speed and catch him with a rigged Shuriken after he broke Tsukuyomi. He was able to manifest enton onto his weapons which have a drastic impact on this match.
Itachi held Sasuke back that entire match, Sasuke was ready to kill Kabuto on a moments notice.


> Even in his last chapters Sasuke was still thinking of himself as always "catching up" to Itachi and Naruto. He obviously wasn't as intelligent at that time and power wise just had raw power. I believe even with all his powers he felt inferior battle wise to Itachi. Younger brother symptom and all. In this case it was true



He always though of himself better than Naruto, even when they meet after the Danzo fight. It wasn't until the final part of the manga where he seen how powerful Naruto actually was. He admired Itachi for what he did, not how powerful he was.

Shit Sasuke shown great battle intelligence, much better than Itachi has shown.

Sasuke has shown to do whatever it takes to win, roll with a 4 man team instead of 2, which is very useful for him. He tricked Danzo with a visual genjutsu. The Deidara fight, the Itachi fight(where he thought about the final moment of the battle and set kirin up for it as a just in case).


----------



## slik91 (Jan 2, 2015)

Obito himself has said Itachi was holding back against Sasuke and if he was not then he would of been dead. Sasuke has more Chakra, EMS and PS but Itachi's tactical skill and intellect are far above Sasuke's. He also has trained with Shisui who was a Mangekyo user and almost tied with him plenty times and that was before he had his own MS. Itachi was also deathly ill and almost blind when he fight Sasuke and he was STILL holding back. He orchestrated the fight to get rid of Orochimaru and the Cursed Seal too. You all severely underestimate Itachi, just like Kabuto did before his ass got Izanami'ed and before we go any further you all need to remember as proven with Madara, all Edo Tensei's are much weaker than their living counterparts no matter how refined the Edo Tensei technique is from the user. So Edo Itachi was still at best 75% of his maximum when he fought Kabuto. Again, proof? Madara had no fucking eyes when he was Rinne Tensei'd yet he was faster than his Edo Tensei form and was finally able to disable Edo Hashirama. If you deny these proofs you need glasses and sleep because you clearly can't read and are not in the right state of mind. Itachi scenario 1 at best ties, scenario 2 he wins high difficulty


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 2, 2015)

ems sasuke surpassed itachi ....his sussano is tier above itachis his stamina is in a different level and ems precog is superior...itachis intelligence does not nullify that gap..


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jan 2, 2015)

itachi is more skilled and more cunning then sasuke but those advantages are not enough to make up for the lack of PS and more stamina.





one can argue tsukiyomi may down MS sasuke, but with superior dojutsu, ems sasuke should be able to at least break or resist tsukiyomi, itachi's speed and taijutsu advantage is nullified by susano and sasuke has ps here.




all in all i see Ems sasuke with perfect susano superior to itachi, the advantages itachi normally retains is nullified by the sheer raw power that ps offers and the fact that sasuke has more stamina doesn't help matters at all.


----------



## slik91 (Jan 3, 2015)

As Itachi said before all techniques have weaknesses and he is a master at finding and exploiting them. Itachi has Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror that he added to his Susanoo. His physical speed and Taijutsu mastery enabled his Edo Tensei form(remember these are only at best 75% of themselves in life) to tie with Kurama Chakra Mode Naruto in Speed and Taijutsu and this was the SAME exact Naruto who was faster than the 4th Raikage. Living and Healthy Itachi's Speed and Taijutsu are above Sasuke's, his intellect, cunning, and tactical abilities are well above Sasuke's, and had he been serious his Tsukuyomi could of done real damage to Sasuke's mind. Itachi was a person Danzo and even Obito did not want to piss off. Take off the plot armor and plot protection and make this a death battle and in the end Sasuke will die vs a living, full health and full eyesight Itachi. Itachi had the mind of a Hokage at the age of 7, he was stronger than Orochimaru at age 15(he was 15 according to Jin no Show when he defeated Oro in Akatsuki) he easily defeated Deidara. He killed his clan quite easily. Kisame himself said Itachi was stronger than him. EMS Sasuke while teaming with Edo Itachi couldn't even react to some of the things Edo Itachi was reacting to. Such as when Kabuto used the sound attack, who saved Sasuke? Edo Itachi showing better reflexes and timing while only at 75% of his actual chakra and abilities because of being a restricted ass Edo Tensei. I only give Sasuke the win if this is Sasuke after he is given the 6 Tomoe Rinnegan and half of Hagoromo's chakra(him and naruto are always getting asspull powerups)


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 3, 2015)

Edo Tensei technique from Kabuto does not revive people at 75% full power. Where did you even get this from?


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 3, 2015)

He's prolly someone's dupe, I was going to respond that that shit of a post but decided I wouldn't give him the attention he so desperately wanted.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Jan 3, 2015)

Edo Itachi is  > Kabuto-Fight Pre-Mastery EMS Sasuke imo.

EMS Sasuke after that fight is on another level though. Sasuke's Susano'o is bijuu-sized. His V3, not his PS. 
Sasuke's  V3 is so much bigger it could probably do this to Itachi's Susano'o[1]
The disparity's too huge for tactfulness or intelligence to fill imo.


----------



## slik91 (Jan 3, 2015)

Where did I get it from?? Let's look at the fucking facts here. Madara with Both Rinnegan as an Edo Tensei could only battle to a standstill with Edo Tensei Hashirama, when he was brought back to life with Rinne Tensei and had no eyes at all, not only was he faster, but he had more chakra and was clearly a hell of a lot stronger as shown by how easily he broke the restraining gates jutsu that Hashirama used on him. If that isn't proof enough to show you that all Edo Tensei's are STILL much weaker than their living counterparts then you need help.. Itachi in life at age 15 was able to take beat Oro easily and we all know Orochimaru is stronger than Kabuto altogether, yet Kabuto was able to go toe to toe with Edo Adult Itachi. Do you guys really read this manga?? because I own all 700 chapters and I am reading this shit right now. Sasuke can't beat a full health, full eyesight, living Itachi before he gets half Hagoromo's chakra and his bitch ass is given the Rinnegan.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jan 4, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> Edo Itachi is  > Kabuto-Fight Pre-Mastery EMS Sasuke imo.
> 
> EMS Sasuke after that fight is on another level though. Sasuke's Susano'o is bijuu-sized. His V3, not his PS.
> Sasuke's  V3 is so much bigger it could probably do this to Itachi's Susano'o[1]
> The disparity's too huge for tactfulness or intelligence to fill imo.



i agree with this imo, itachi is superior to v4 sasuke, but once sasuke obtained any legged susano variant he surpassed his brother.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 4, 2015)

slik91 said:


> Where did I get it from?? Let's look at the fucking facts here. Madara with Both Rinnegan as an Edo Tensei could only battle to a standstill with Edo Tensei Hashirama, when he was brought back to life with Rinne Tensei and had no eyes at all, not only was he faster, but he had more chakra and was clearly a hell of a lot stronger as shown by how easily he broke the restraining gates jutsu that Hashirama used on him. If that isn't proof enough to show you that all Edo Tensei's are STILL much weaker than their living counterparts then you need help.. Itachi in life at age 15 was able to take beat Oro easily and we all know Orochimaru is stronger than Kabuto altogether, yet Kabuto was able to go toe to toe with Edo Adult Itachi. Do you guys really read this manga?? because I own all 700 chapters and I am reading this shit right now. Sasuke can't beat a full health, full eyesight, living Itachi before he gets half Hagoromo's chakra and his bitch ass is given the Rinnegan.



 But considering that Madara himself even admitted Hashirama and himself were mere equals and the fact that Tobirama was revived at almost full power implies that Madara himself as well as the other ET's were revived at full power.

 Orochimaru stronger than Kabuto? Kabuto literally absorbed Orochimaru's powers and experimented on himself as well as perfecting Sage Mode when Orochimaru himself couldn't even do it. Admit it, Kabuto was superior to Orochimaru in every single way. Gaining Suigetsu's liquefying ability, enhanced regeneration from Karin, as well as Jugo's ability to absorb natural energy constantly. Factor in the Sound Five's abilities that actually required cooperation from Sasuke and Itachi to counter it. Orochimaru was fodderized twice by mere Sharingan genjutsu, Kabuto actually required two high level MS users to beat him and was only countered by a very high level Sharingan Genjutsu. Yes, Orochimaru is certainly stronger than Kabuto. Keep trolling lol, this is why you're red.

 And I'm not reading the rest of your horseshit because that's irrelevant.


----------



## slik91 (Jan 4, 2015)

LMAO dude your funny... explain how in the FUCK he managed to easily beat Hashirama with NO eyes once he came back to life?? He also became faster, to the point Naruto could not stop him at getting to Hashirama. You said they were equals once Madara came to life?? bullshit. You are horrible at visual clues and context clues. Edo's are definitely not anywhere near full strength as Tobirama claimed. Madara even says to Tobirama that BECAUSE of him being an Edo he cannot fight at full power and there is a GULF between Hashirama, him and Madara now. Jesus fucking christ man go back and PLEASE read the manga, if not for me then for you to so you don't look stupid on here.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 4, 2015)

Madara stated at the time that they were once mere equals, referring to both Hashirama and Madara himself as well as the fact that Tobirama stated himself that they were revived at almost full power implies that all Edo Tensei's themselves were revived at full power. Even Hashirama kept up with Madara as an ET and ET Hashirama was more or less equal to Living Hashirama.

 I never once stated that Madara after Rinne Tensei was equal to ET Madara or EMS Madara back in the day.


----------



## slik91 (Jan 4, 2015)

Wrong again. They were not revived at full power. Madara with no eyes > ET Madara = ET Hashirama Living Madara is clearly and by far stronger than his ET Form and to think the same result wouldn't happen to the other ET's is just childish. He was just shy of tying with Hashirama when both of them were ET's but the moment he came back to life, before he absorbed senjutsu and WITHOUT fricking eyeballs he was faster and stronger and he beat ET Hashirama fast as fuck, that alone goes to show that Edo Tensei's will NEVER compare to their living counterparts no matter who is using the technique.

Then you understand that Edo Tensei's are not nearly as strong as their living forms, Itachi and Nagato(both were severely handicapped before Edo Tensei) Imagine them completely healthy and in life with no handicaps?? Yeah the 4th war would have goon smooth as fuck if they were there like that.


----------

