# Is Luffy stronger than Kaido?



## Chip Skylark (May 12, 2022)

Bajrang Gun was able to overpower Flame Bagua by no small margin. Luffy proved Kaido's prediction right by becoming the man that would be able to beat him.

Now that the fight is over what's the verdict?


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## The crazy hacker (May 12, 2022)

G5 is slightly stronger than Kaido but I think Kaido has more stamina so he wins.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 5


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## Van Basten (May 12, 2022)

He’s not even as strong as a full power Kaido.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sablés (May 12, 2022)

Not a chance.
Momo could barely hold up the island.
Kaido must have expended a shit ton of energy on that front alone.
Assuming Kaido's output wasn't hindered, I can back Luffy on being slightly stronger in AP, but he can't match Kaido's endurance or stamina, so Kaido's ultimately stronger still.

Reactions: Agree 21


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## A Optimistic (May 12, 2022)

Luffy is still weaker than Kaido.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 11


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## Oberyn Nymeros (May 12, 2022)

No of course he isnt.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## YMICrazy (May 12, 2022)

Now? Nah. In the short future once he messes around with G5? Easily.


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## ClannadFan (May 12, 2022)

It's the same as always.

Luffy>=Bad guy

Bad guys fans think he's still stronger. They have decent points, but it's always clear that Oda's intent is to portray that Luffy surpassed them.

Luffy at his peak is clearly stronger, but turns into a used condom within 10 mins. Although we don't know yet if that's actually the case with G5.

Luffy clearly surpasses him in the next Arc.

The formula almost never changes, esspecially with the recent Arcs. Doffy, Kat and now Kaido.

Reactions: Like 5 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## The crazy hacker (May 12, 2022)

ClannadFan said:


> It's the same as always.
> 
> Luffy>=Bad guy
> 
> ...


Luffy surpassed Doffy in his fight against Katakuri 90 or so chapters later IMO

Katakuri isn't the same circumstances as Kaido.


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## ClannadFan (May 12, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Luffy surpassed Doffy in his fight against Katakuri 90 or so chapters later IMO
> 
> Katakuri isn't the same circumstances as Kaido.


Luffy bodied Doffy. Didn't Oda go out of his way to point out that Luffy would of won even if nobody helped?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Sablés (May 12, 2022)

ClannadFan said:


> Luffy bodied Doffy. Didn't Oda go out of his way to point out that Luffy would of won even if nobody helped?


He said that Luffy would have had to try his best.
No idea why that's being brought up here though. Kaido isn't Doffy and he wasn't ragdolled like Doffy.


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## MrAnalogies (May 12, 2022)

What kind of goofy question is this? After Kaido lost a shit load of energy running a 50+ chapter gauntlet, Luffy just barely managed to fight evenly with Kaido after 2 free haki enhancements and a new gear yet barely won. A fresh Kaido wins mid dif.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 1


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## JustSumGuy (May 12, 2022)

Kaido is stronger but Luffy now gives a solid high diff fight.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 12, 2022)

G5 one-shotted Kaido with his* first* big attack after playing around for a few chapters

... of course Luffy is way stronger

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (May 12, 2022)

Luffy in g5 is stronger but I think if the come in fresh kaido probably outlasts. Who knows tho. We’ll probably get the standard Luffy has surpassed the antagonist if it’s really end game.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 12, 2022)

Luffys hand didnt even get a burn

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Etherborn (May 12, 2022)

It confuses me that people are throwing around the term fresh Kaido as if Luffy was somehow fresh after going into G5. Of the two, Luffy would have been hindered more by prior damage by the time he entered that form seeing as he took a shit ton of it in a comparatively weaker one.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 5 | Winner 2 | GODA 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Sablés (May 12, 2022)

Etherborn said:


> It confuses me that people are throwing around the term fresh Kaido as if Luffy was somehow fresh after going into G5.


Doesn't matter if he was at full power or not. It's an awakening.
He's going to burn out well before Kaido no matter what.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Louis-954 (May 12, 2022)

No. Use common sense.

Kaido had 17 opponents and 1 break and fought nearly the entire gauntlet while holding and moving an island up in the sky. Luffy was defeated 3-4 times, had multiple breaks, was given medical attention and even fed.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Etherborn (May 12, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Doesn't matter if he was at full power or not. It's an awakening.
> *He's going to burn out well before Kaido no matter what.*



Why wouldn't it matter that Luffy himself wasn't fresh when I'm addressing the argument that Kaido wasn't fresh? Also, the bolded is baseless, considering he can restore his own stamina in G5, which we still don't know the limits of.


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## convict (May 12, 2022)

Kaido is of course stronger due to various reasons already posted.

Luffy gives him high difficulty though. With Doffy and Kats it was 50/50 but here clearly Kaido is stronger.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sablés (May 12, 2022)

Etherborn said:


> Why wouldn't it matter that Luffy himself wasn't fresh when I'm addressing the argument that Kaido wasn't fresh?


It won't matter because the point is that Luffy will gas out first regardless? So it'd be better to focus on how exactly a fresh G5 would change anything if we're taking the discussion to that point?


Etherborn said:


> Also, the bolded is baseless, considering he can restore his own stamina in G5, which we still don't know the limits of.


No, it's not "baseless". The word you're looking for is "ambiguous" and I wouldn't agree. We don't definite numbers to know this.

Awakenings are explicitly called energy intensive abilities and Luffy admitted. We have no reason to believe Luffy skirts that caveat, especially when the chapter ends with Luffy falling to the ground with his face blacked out to parallel Momo exhausted on the ground.

So unless you want to argue Luffy has infinite stamina? You'd probably think twice. I personally would considering, asides this chapter and what happened above, we had this said when Luffy recharged himself.



The recharge wasn't even instant, by the way. He was defenseless for a few pages. Fatal in a fight and means recovery isn't so easy. Kaido absolutely deserves the benefit of the doubt as less assumptions need to be made for him. He just has to fight normally.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## MrAnalogies (May 12, 2022)

Sablés said:


> It won't matter because the point is that Luffy will gas out first regardless? So it'd be better to focus on how exactly a fresh G5 would change anything?
> 
> No, it's not "baseless". The word you're looking for is "ambiguous" and I wouldn't agree. We don't definite numbers to know this.
> 
> ...


The other thing is Kaido spent half their battle sandbagging to see what other abilities and power Luffy had, took serious hits on purpose, etc. A blood lusted fresh Kaido, like the one from the first time they fought, certainly isn't going to be standing there chuckling saying "carful or you'll kill yourself". He had warmed up to Luffy throughout this arc.

People are severely underestimating just how drained kaido was and how much he was dicking around.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Fel1x (May 12, 2022)

MrAnalogies said:


> What kind of goofy question is this? After Kaido lost a shit load of energy running a 50+ chapter gauntlet, Luffy just barely managed to fight evenly with Kaido after 2 free haki enhancements and a new gear yet barely won. A fresh Kaido wins mid dif.


remember lifting the island this whole time


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## Etherborn (May 12, 2022)

Sablés said:


> It won't matter because the point is that Luffy will gas out first regardless? So it'd be better to focus on how exactly a fresh G5 would change anything if we're taking the discussion to that point?
> 
> No, it's not "baseless". The word you're looking for is "ambiguous" and I wouldn't agree. We don't definite numbers to know this.
> 
> ...



Didn't say it was infinite. I said he can restore it. And keeping in mind that by the time he ever needed to use that ability he had taken enough damage to otherwise literally die, I don't really buy that he'd gas out earlier than Kaido if he...

1. was never in a weaker form that would require him to take that much damage to begin with, and
2. never took a killing blow as a result of outside interference.

Also can't use the panel at the end as proof he couldn't recharge himself again since there's no reason to recharge himself when the fight has concluded.

I'm not saying Luffy would definitely have the edge but I don't buy that Kaido's advantage would be definite either.


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## Luffyfan38 (May 12, 2022)

I'd say equal to Kaidou once gear 5 kicked in.


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## Chip Skylark (May 12, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Not a chance.
> Momo could barely hold up the island.
> Kaido must have expended a shit ton of energy on that front alone.
> Assuming Kaido's output wasn't hindered, I can back Luffy on being slightly stronger in AP, but he can't match Kaido's endurance or stamina, so Kaido's ultimately stronger still.


Not to downplay Kaido’s feat, but Momo isn’t exactly the greatest example of strength. Momo’s inability to hold up the island doesn’t somehow translate to a show of how much energy Kaido must’ve put into carrying the island when this is the same Momo that couldn’t even create any flame clouds until the pivotal moment. The same Momo that struggled to push an island under the influence of another dragon’s flame clouds.

Imagine how much easier Momo would’ve had it if instead of being a hastily matured 8 year old he was an experienced user of his fruit with, say, Luffy’s level of strength. Feel that puts the “handicap” into a bit more perspective.

I’m sure Kaido put a decent amount of energy into it, but enough to rationalize the idea of him being stronger after having been sent miles into the ground by “Bajrang Gun” from his strongest attack being cleanly overwhelmed? That’s a stretch.

There’s a reason Kaido had that flashback after being defeated, and its not because Luffy only won due to some extreme handicap.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OG sama (May 13, 2022)

G5 Luffy is more powerful, and neither one of Kaido or Luffy was fresh.

Luffys best attack overpowered Kaidos best attack.

Can Kaido possibly outlast G5? Yeah but he isn’t stronger nah.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Vengarl (May 13, 2022)

Just like every other fight we just don't know. Luffy got so many chances and took so many Ls

He'll be definitively stronger by next arc though. Kind of like how he surpassed Katakuri mid Wano.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sieves (May 13, 2022)

Luffy got as much help defeating Kaido asLaw and Kid did with their bombs against BM. So no.


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## Amol (May 13, 2022)

In this arc?
No.

He should be quite close to Kaido given he did overpower Kaido's strongest attack but overall speaking Kaido should edge him out.

Luffy will surpass him in next arc.

Reactions: Like 2


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## themightyvoosh (May 13, 2022)

Kaido would win in a fight if both were refreshed, likely extreme diff. But Luffy at his strongest would overpower Kaido at his strongest if this clash is any indication. It is just that he wouldn't be able to maintain his max as long as Kaido could.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## trance (May 13, 2022)

not right now he isn't

once that zenkai settles in and he starts making strides in refining and mastering adv. coc and G5 he will be

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShadoLord (May 13, 2022)

Kaido is stronger. Just like Kat is stronger than Luffy at the start of wano or Doflamingo being stronger than the Luffy that fought Cracker. 

All three villains were nerfed. Especially Kaido and Doflamingo.


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## ShadoLord (May 13, 2022)

Just wanted to say Doflamingo has always been YC1-YFM level. He has proven that by chairing Jozu and achieving what the YC2 couldn’t by breaking out of Aokiji’s ice. Then he went and maintained birdcage while fighting Law and Luffy. Hell, he only lost cuz of the fodder’s assistance and taking Luffy’s KKG headon like Kaido did to Bajrang Gun.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

This raises doflamingo's level a bit. The guy might be around YC2 in the end.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sablés (May 13, 2022)

All it took was for KAIDO of all people to get wrecked by Plotffy for Doflamingo to get some respect?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Piecesis (May 13, 2022)

Sablés said:


> All it took was for KAIDO of all people to get wrecked by Plotffy for Doflamingo to get some respect?


People have bad memory, Dofla still managed to dmg Gear 4 luffy. Their favourite swordsman couldn't cut birdcage.


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## Corax (May 13, 2022)

G5 Luffy is stronger than Kaido. Clearly Bajrang Gun was a huge overkill,not only it destroyed Drum Dragon but also turned Kaido into the first underground dragon in history. But overall I guess he is a bit weaker, because G5 is still an uncontrolled zenkai power up. Next arc Luffy with mastered G5 will be clearly good deal stronger though.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## trance (May 13, 2022)

ShadoLord said:


> YC1


i might regret asking but what exactly is the difference between "YC1" and "YFM"? don't they just denote the strongest member of a yonko crew after the yonko themselves?


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## Piecesis (May 13, 2022)

trance said:


> i might regret asking but what exactly is the difference between "YC1" and "YFM"? don't they just denote the strongest member of a yonko crew after the yonko themselves?


There's no difference. Interchangable.


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## Seraphoenix (May 13, 2022)

trance said:


> i might regret asking but what exactly is the difference between "YC1" and "YFM"? don't they just denote the strongest member of a yonko crew after the yonko themselves?


Some people like to use it to distinguish between those who are close to their captain in strength, versus those who are right hand men, but not that close to the captain in strength. So for instance the only Great Pirate first mates are Rayleigh and Beckmann. Both of them are treated a bit differently than the other YC1s in portrayal and hype.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Corax said:


> G5 Luffy is stronger than Kaido. Clearly Bajrang Gun was a huge overkill,not only it destroyed Drum Dragon but also turned Kaido into the first underground dragon in history. But overall I guess he is a bit weaker, because G5 is still an uncontrolled zenkai power up. Next arc Luffy with mastered G5 will be clearly good deal stronger though.


G5 Luffy's strongest attack ( which is by far the strongest attack in the series ) was simply a little stronger than Nerfed Kaido's attack. This is a less shameful translation of your post.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dark Knight (May 13, 2022)

No but its close. If Kaido is 100 Luffy is 97.


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## Corax (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> G5 Luffy's strongest attack ( which is by far the strongest attack in the series ) was simply a little stronger than Nerfed Kaido's attack. This is a less shameful translation of your post.


How it was a little stronger if Kaido's attack was completely destroyed and he was buried hundred meters underground?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Ludi (May 13, 2022)

Post wano Luffy will be stronger (>=, extreme diff) than wano Kaido, Obviously


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## rext1 (May 13, 2022)

Luffy is now solid Admiral level so yes hes above the likes of Big Mom and Kaido.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1 | GODA 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Alex Payne (May 13, 2022)

themightyvoosh said:


> Kaido would win in a fight if both were refreshed, likely extreme diff. But Luffy at his strongest would overpower Kaido at his strongest if this clash is any indication. It is just that he wouldn't be able to maintain his max as long as Kaido could.


Sounds about right. Luffy's peak > Kaido's but Kaido is far more consistent.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

rext1 said:


> Luffy is now solid Admiral level so yes hes above the likes of Big Mom and Kaido.


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## bil02 (May 13, 2022)

Seeing how Luffy is getting knocked out at the same time as Kaido,then obviously no.


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## o0Shinthi0o (May 13, 2022)

Kaidos attack did not work at all vs G5 Luffy while Luffys first serious finisher in G5 overpowered Kaidos strongest attack . Also people bringing out kaidos stamina issue as if Luffy did to actullu almost died b4 G5


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Kaidos attack did not work at all vs G5 Luffy while Luffys first serious finisher in G5 overpowered Kaidos strongest attack . Also people bringing out kaidos stamina issue as if Luffy did to actullu almost died b4 G5


So in the end, Luffy loses, this to sum up your hateful post.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 13, 2022)

>Kaido gets overpowered and makes a dragon-shaped crater
>Aktually you see, this means Kaido is stronger

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Dellinger (May 13, 2022)

Luffy has never struggled as much delivering a finishing blow as he did here. Kaido literally overpowered him for a moment. Plus he is completely wasted the moment the attack connects


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## o0Shinthi0o (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> So in the end, Luffy loses, this to sum up your hateful post.


Yes pre G5 Luffy lost like 10000 times vs Kaido . But G5 is superior to Kaido . a fresh bloodlusted G5 Luffy vs fresh Bloodlusted Kaido will go Luffys favor extreme diff off course

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dark Knight (May 13, 2022)

If G5 does not have a silly time limit like G4, then there is no ifs or buts about it, Luffy is stronger than Kaido.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kylo Ren (May 13, 2022)

Full power Luffy >> Full power Kaido. In Kaido's own words Joyboy is the only one who could defeat him. Once Luffy awaken his fruit the man who could defeat Kaido already appeared.

If they both have a rematch after they regain their full strength Luffy would beat Kaido 10/10 and we have a new 1v1 King.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Yes pre G5 Luffy lost like 10000 times vs Kaido . But G5 is superior to Kaido . a fresh bloodlusted G5 Luffy vs fresh Bloodlusted Kaido will go Luffys favor extreme diff off course


False, of course.
G5 Luffy needs his strongest attack to overcome a very tired Kaido who's been holding an island for hours. After the use of the attack, Luffy is out.
Full stamina Kaido could keep going for a lot, a lot of time. Unlike Luffy who had lost control of G5 first after some minutes.

Reactions: Optimistic 3


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## o0Shinthi0o (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> False, of course.
> G5 Luffy needs his strongest attack to overcome a very tired Kaido who's been holding an island for hours. After the use of the attack, Luffy is out.
> Full stamina Kaido could keep going for a lot, a lot of time. Unlike Luffy who had lost control of G5 first after some minutes.


So, Kaido died of exhaustion then

Reactions: Funny 5 | Disagree 2


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## MrPopo (May 13, 2022)

Luffy is stronger

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Kylo Ren said:


> Full power Luffy >> Full power Kaido. In Kaido's own words Joyboy is the only one who could defeat him. Once Luffy awaken his fruit the man who could defeat Kaido already appeared.
> 
> If they both have a rematch after they regain their full strength Luffy would beat Kaido 10/10 and we have a new 1v1 King.


 imagine Oda intending to do that and at the same time having Kaido fight 17 people while holding an island.
Luffy will be stronger at one point, but definitely not now. Kaido outlasts him heavily.


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> So, Kaido died of exhaustion then


Kaido died?  
A creative hater, that's quite rare


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## o0Shinthi0o (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Kaido died?
> A creative hater, that's quite rare


why r u keep saying hater lol . by died i mean KOed , rekt , horn destroyed etc . everyone knows no one dies in OP , just ask Kinimon


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## Dark Knight (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> imagine Oda intending to do that and at the same time having *Kaido fight 17 people* while holding an island.
> Luffy will be stronger at one point, but definitely not now. Kaido outlasts him heavily.


Other than Luffy, who of these 17 people caused serious significant damage to Kaido?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## featherine augustus (May 13, 2022)

Reminder that Kaido could have dodged the attack but chose to face it directly.

He is obviously more powerful


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## Ren. (May 13, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Bajrang Gun was able to overpower Flame Bagua by no small margin. Luffy proved Kaido's prediction right by becoming the man that would be able to beat him.
> 
> Now that the fight is over what's the verdict?


N0


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Dark Knight said:


> Other than Luffy, who of these 17 people caused serious significant damage to Kaido?


Zoro scarred him, other rt5 hurt him, yamato hurt him, the scabbards did hurt him ( but only superficially ), Luffy hurt him ( before he was thrown off the island, after which Luffy rested while Kaido kept fighting )

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> >Kaido gets overpowered and makes a dragon-shaped crater
> >Aktually you see, this means Kaido is stronger


This comes from the same guy who takes Akainu getting punched the f out as a big win


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## Kylo Ren (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> imagine Oda intending to do that and at the same time having Kaido fight 17 people while holding an island.
> Luffy will be stronger at one point, but definitely not now. Kaido outlasts him heavily.


Luffy already surpasses Kaido the fandom is the only one making excuses for Kaido. Any other opponent, Kaido would come out as the victor even in that same condition but not against Joyboy. Go argue with Oda.


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## Ren. (May 13, 2022)

convict said:


> Kaido is of course stronger due to various reasons already posted.
> 
> Luffy gives him high difficulty though. With Doffy and Kats it was 50/50 but here clearly Kaido is stronger.


No, this is an extreme diff now where kaido wins. 

At peak Luffy is superior but overall Kaido is stronger. 

What I said at the start of Wano but it was high high diff before.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Bobybobster (May 13, 2022)

Etherborn said:


> It confuses me that people are throwing around the term fresh Kaido as if Luffy was somehow fresh after going into G5. Of the two, Luffy would have been hindered more by prior damage by the time he entered that form seeing as he took a shit ton of it in a comparatively weaker one.


I thought I was going crazy here, people saying kaido will outlast g5 luffy... yet luffy closed out the fight from a *much* worse state and still obliterated kaido with bajrang gun...

This is extreme diff imo, start of next arc luffy should definitively be > kaido.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Kylo Ren said:


> Luffy already surpasses Kaido the fandom is the only one making excuses for Kaido. Any other opponent, Kaido would come out as the victor even in that same condition but not against Joyboy. Go argue with Oda.


Joyboy fell after what? 10 minutes? Have him go against fresh Kaido without island floating


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## o0Shinthi0o (May 13, 2022)

Luffy himself said he will surpass Kaido and Kaido while falling said the man who will defeat him is Joyboy .


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Luffy himself said he will surpass Kaido and Kaido while falling said the man who will defeat him is Joyboy .


And what is wrong with that?


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## Dark Knight (May 13, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Reminder that Kaido could have dodged the attack but chose to face it directly.


Using a top tier technique of his own which was overpowered.


Duhul10 said:


> Zoro scarred him, other rt5 hurt him, yamato hurt him, the scabbards did hurt him ( but only superficially ), Luffy hurt him ( before he was thrown off the island, after which Luffy rested while Kaido kept fighting )


Other than maybe Zoro scarring him, nothing I see here qualifies as significant damage that would affect his fighting abilities.


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## o0Shinthi0o (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> And what is wrong with that?


just stating the manga facts thats all

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kylo Ren (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Joyboy fell after what? 10 minutes? Have him go against fresh Kaido without island floating


Dude, he fell because the fight is over, you just creating a scenario that downplays Luffy. Yes, Luffy is out so does Kaido? and at least Luffy is out from exhaustion, unlike Kaido who got knocked the fuck out.


Kaido himself thinks the one that can defeat him is Luffy. There is no other option only this. As I said before, any other opponents in that same condition Kaido would come out as the victor. the chapter just told us this, don't you think?


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Kylo Ren said:


> Dude, he fell because the fight is over, you just creating a scenario that downplays Luffy. Yes, Luffy is out so does Kaido? and at least Luffy is out from exhaustion, unlike Kaido who got knocked the fuck out.
> 
> 
> Kaido himself thinks the one that can defeat him is Luffy. There is no other option only this. As I said before, any other opponents in that same condition Kaido would come out as the victor. the chapter just told us this, don't you think?


So both are out, as a conclusion to the long succession of excuses.

As for Luffy being stronger than Kaido? Yes, for a brief moment he would. In the long run, as of now? No. 
Final arc Luffy? At that point he should be decisively above Kaido.


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## featherine augustus (May 13, 2022)

Dark Knight said:


> Using a top tier technique of his own which was overpowered.


What has that to do with what I said?

You can't read or what?


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## Klue (May 13, 2022)

His strength grew during battle. In the end, Luffy surpassed Kaido and claimed victory.

Just not in a manner suitable to some forum member's preferences.


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## Kirin Thunderclap (May 13, 2022)

Yes.

Reactions: Funny 1 | GODA 2


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Klue said:


> His strength grew during battle. In the end, Luffy surpassed Kaido and claimed victory.
> 
> Just not in a manner suitable to some forum member's preferences.


Or it's just the haters who try clinging onto a statement which more than likely implies the future to counter the many feats that suggest the opposite of what they believe.


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## Dark Knight (May 13, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> What has that to do with what I said?
> 
> You can't read or what?


I can't read. I clearly have dyslexia.


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## Klue (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Or it's just the haters who try clinging onto a statement which more than likely implies the future *to counter the many feats* that suggest the opposite of what they believe.



Oda doesn't care fam.


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Klue said:


> Oda doesn't care fam.


So F*ck the manga, if Luffy punched Kaido through a hole, he is already way better right?  F*ck the rest, f*ck context, f*ck everything. Our opinion is all, nothing else matters, right?


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## Casval Rem Aznable (May 13, 2022)

Kaido was injured when he started fighting Luffy 1 on 1 yes..but regardless the point is that Luffy surpassed Kaido. Same thing as Dressrosa/Doflamingo. You could argue Doffy/Kaido would have defeated Luffy at full health, but the opposite can also be argued since  at the end of the day Luffy did overpower their strongest attacks to beat them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Beast (May 13, 2022)

Same thing as Kata, he isn’t but if they run it back, Luffy wins anyway.


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## Shanks (May 13, 2022)

So many people still in denial here, just like Luna Terra.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Lewd 1


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## Shunsuiju (May 13, 2022)




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## Amol (May 13, 2022)

As someone who still considers Kaido stronger than Luffy I think I have to point out the double standards.

Kaido wasn't the only person who was weakened. Luffy was injured too.

If you are gonna make argument that Kaido's attack would have been stronger in fresh state then so would have been Luffy's attack. That logic works for both of them.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Gunners (May 13, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Luffy surpassed Doffy in his fight against Katakuri 90 or so chapters later IMO
> 
> Katakuri isn't the same circumstances as Kaido.



This again.

The only reason Doflamingo wasn't KOed the first time Luffy went into Gear 4 is because he beat Doflamingo too severely. 

He smacked him so hard he had to get in range for the finishing shot.

One on one, Luffy was Doflamingo's superior. He could take things to a level where Flamingo couldn't hope to compete.


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## Sablés (May 13, 2022)

Gunners said:


> The only reason Doflamingo wasn't KOed the first time Luffy went into Gear 4 is because he beat Doflamingo too severely.




How did this make sense in your head?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Gunners (May 13, 2022)

Sablés said:


> How did this make sense in your head?



Why did Luffy have to waste time pursuing him?

Time was wasted because he literally whooped Doflamingo's ass across the town.

If he eased up on the ass whooping, he'd have been in range for the finishing blow.


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## Sablés (May 13, 2022)

Gunners said:


> Time was wasted because he literally whooped Doflamingo's ass across the town.


And...do you realize that hitting Doflamingo harder incurred more damage, which compiles over time?
You are quite literally trying to tell me that Luffy "lost" because he was hitting DD with all he had *for 20 minutes and the man wouldn't go down*. What???

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gunners (May 13, 2022)

Sablés said:


> And...do you realize that hitting Doflamingo harder incurred more damage, which compiles over time?
> You are quite literally trying to tell me that Luffy "lost" because he was hitting DD with all he had *for 20 minutes.* What???



I am saying he ran out of gas because he sent Doflamingo flying. It is not the W for Mingo that you think it is.

Man got ragdolled so severely that it gave him the space needed for a breather.


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## Sablés (May 13, 2022)

Gunners said:


> I am saying he ran out of gas because he sent Doflamingo flying


And why was Doflamingo flying? Because Luffy hit him with a high-powered attack. Why did Luffy need to do that? Because DD kept getting up from every shot or outright blocking them with Off-White. Your logic makes no sense, and is almost certainly confirmation bias at work, instead of just following the simple trail of DD being too tough for anything but Luffy's best at the time.

If Luffy didn't hit DD with Leo Bazooka, what the hell makes you think that DD would have been incapacitated enough for Luffy to land another shot at all?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Gunners (May 13, 2022)

Sablés said:


> And why was Doflamingo flying? Because Luffy hit him with a high-powered attack. Why did Luffy need to do that? Because DD kept getting up from every shot or outright blocking them with Off-White. Your logic makes no sense, and is almost certainly confirmation bias at work, instead of just following the simple trail of DD being too tough for anything but Luffy's best at the time.
> 
> If Luffy didn't hit DD with Leo Bazooka, what the hell makes you think that DD would have been incapacitated enough for Luffy to land another shot at all?


If Doflamingo was not rag dolled by the vicious beating Luffy put on him, he would have be close enough for the follow up punch.

In short, Luffy had to expend more energy whooping Doflamingo because he couldn't take a punch without flying across the island.


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## Ren. (May 13, 2022)

OMG DD again.

Luffy had Snake-man from the first time he set off in the Post TS.

Snake-man shits on DD, so fast that he can not even apply COA to defend as he did with Boundman.

And there is no flying to hit him also it takes less COA to sustain.


Face it , Luffy didn't use vs DD most of his arsenal.

@Gunners  FFS he used culverin in Boundman, the weakest shit from all his arsenal in G4.

Now imagine him getting hit for 100s of time with jet culverin and ending with Black mamba.


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## Delta Shell (May 13, 2022)

Kaido was just hungry and wanted to get captured.


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## Ren. (May 13, 2022)

Delta Shell said:


> Kaido was just hungry and wanted to get captured.


But Luffy doesn't share his meat.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Lewd 2


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## Sablés (May 13, 2022)

Gunners said:


> If Doflamingo was not rag dolled by the vicious beating Luffy put on him, he would have be close enough for the follow up punch.


You're stonewalling. I'm telling you that there is no evidence that anything less than Leo Bazooka would have made Doflamingo vulnerable to a follow up. Luffy in G4 does not waste time. He goes as hard as he can because stamina is a vital problem. He spent 20 damn minutes trying to hit Doflamingo as hard as he could and failed. What on Earth makes you think that he would have succeeded by pulling his punches? It's not like he expected to run out at that last second. It happened because his haki ran out.


Gunners said:


> In short, Luffy had to expend more energy whooping Doflamingo because he couldn't take a punch without flying across the island.


I mean, I agree, but I think you still miss the point. Luffy isn't a magician. He can't control how far his enemies are sent flying while punching them at the same time. He holds back and DD takes less damage, meaning less chance to capitalize or injure him. He goes full throttle, does more damage, and this is what we get. At the end of the day, Luffy did not beat DD with just one round of G4.


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## CC Ravis (May 13, 2022)

One on one, always bet on Luffy gassing out.

Reactions: Funny 6 | Winner 2


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## T.D.A (May 13, 2022)

Kaido is still stronger.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chaos Hokage (May 13, 2022)

I would like to yes, but no, I don't think Luffy is stronger than Kaido as of now. It took more than Luffy's Awakening/Gear 5 to bring down the Yonko. There were 9 Red Scabbards, the other Supernovas and Yamato who soften up Kaido. If Luffy and Kaido were fighting one-on-one on the rooftop from the start then I don't think Luffy would've survive even after completing his Ryou training.


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## Draco Bolton (May 13, 2022)

Kaido tanked many attacks coming from other characters, apparently he could have dodged Nika's last attack, and Nika seems pretty exhausted at the end of 1049. I think that in 1 vs 1 with the 2 being healthy, it wont be difficult for Kaido to outlast Luffy modes

And Kaido was carrying Onigashima for more than 50 chapters (Momo carried it during 2 panels and he's  KO  Our attempt to downplay Kaido's Onigashima feat by using Momo failed miserably @MartyMcFly1  ).

Kaido is still stronger.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## MartyMcFly1 (May 13, 2022)

Draco Bolton said:


> Kaido tanked many attacks coming from other characters, apparently he could have dodged Nika's last attack, and Nika seems pretty exhausted at the end of 1049. I think that in 1 vs 1 with the 2 being healthy, it wont be difficult for Kaido to outlast Luffy modes
> 
> And Kaido was carrying Onigashima for more than 50 chapters (Momo carried it during 2 panels and he's  KO  Our attempt to downplay Kaido's Onigashima feat by using Momo failed miserably @MartyMcFly1  ).
> 
> Kaido is still stronger.


I still say yes, he overpowered his strongest attack. I need to see more of how strong ‘adult Momo’ is before I definitely say that lifting the island nerfed him. If he’s Oden level right out the box, then fine.

Also, Kaido receiving attacks from people far weaker than him shouldn’t be compared to Luffy receiving attacks from Kaido prior to having ACoC.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2022)

This is the same shit as with Doflamingo. People claimed worse condition is why he lost but can’t explain how better condition would allow Doffy to do any better against King Kong Gun; like wise there is no one offering an explanation as to how a better condition Kaidou would have overcome Barjang Gun when his Burning Hakke Attack failed.

—-
Also from a narrative prospective do you really think Kaidou means the guy who beats me, but normally wouldn’t, is Joy boy lol. Come on it s not a hard manga to understand
—-
Luffy is stronger but it will be by a minimal margin until next arc

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Superstars (May 13, 2022)

When you can hold back against your opponent and still survive...YES Luffy is stronger than Kaidoh.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Luffy can only temporarily barely, barely overpower Kaido with his strongest technique, so overall, of course he is not generally stronger yet, he's still below, but that was to be expected. Have fresh Kaido with no floating island vs Fresh Luffy right now and the answer would be obvious.


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## Sablés (May 13, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Also from a narrative prospective do you really think Kaidou means the guy who beats me, but normally wouldn’t, is Joy boy lol.


Yes? Do you think Kaido gives a shit about the hows and whys? They're pirates. They don't make excuses, just as Luffy didn't make an excuse for himself when Brulee cheap-shotted him in his fight against Katakuri.

Law and Kidd triumphed over Big Mom. Do you think the world will really care about how it happened? Do you think Kaido or Luffy did when they heard she was defeated? What about Oden? Do you think WB cared to wrack up the power level details about how Oden could have lost to Kaido? No. But that doesn't mean readers have to think that the winners are stronger, because we can assess the circumstances.



> Doflamingo


Don't even know why you people keep bringing him up. Kaido is not DD, nor is he any other villain Luffy has faced up to this point.


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## Superstars (May 13, 2022)

Kaidoh stans are hyperventilating in paper bags because Luffy held back against Kaidoh and then one punched his strongest form.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

AW members actually enjoying Kaido losing to an attack 100× more powerful that the one that smashed their idol, after the guy fought 17 people and held an island on a plate for hours


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## Superstars (May 13, 2022)

How many more lines left of the crack copeaine kaidoh bros.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Superstars said:


> How many more lines left of the crack copeaine kaidoh bros.


This guy   you shouldn't even dare pronounce the guy's name based on the difference between him and your idol. It's as if a guy riding a donkey laughs at the arabian stallion.


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## Siskebabas (May 13, 2022)

Personally i would rank kaido above, but as couple posters mentioned, storywise Oda probably doesnt give a darn how Kaido lost. Its same as Katakuri fight. Kaido knew one person can beat him and got beat exactly by that specific person aka joyboy


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## Superstars (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> This guy   you shouldn't even dare pronounce the guy's name based on the difference between him and your idol. It's as if a guy riding a donkey laughs at the arabian stallion.


But Kaidoh himself said joyboy is gonna open up a can on him.

Luffy did just that. Face it...Luffy is above Kaidoh on the tier list, with room to spare.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## OG sama (May 13, 2022)

Kaido literally stated that Joyboy can beat him but fans are seriously going to sit here and tell me that if this fight started completely over that Joyboy would lose???

Like… how does that even make sense????

So Joyboy can beat Kaido but he also can’t beat Kaido?

Like what even is this logic?

Does the manga state Joyboy can beat Kaido or does it state that Kaido can beat Joyboy?

It’s really simple man.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sablés (May 13, 2022)

OG sama said:


> Like… how does that even make sense????


Did Oden lose to Kaido? Answer yes or no.


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## OG sama (May 13, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Did Oden lose to Kaido? Answer yes or no.


Yes


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## Sablés (May 13, 2022)

OG sama said:


> Yes


Did Oden lose because he was weaker than Kaido?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 13, 2022)

Kaidobros are just in shock from the size of this chapters L

they will come around


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## OG sama (May 13, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Did Oden lose because he was weaker than Kaido?


No but Kaido definitely did.

Kaidos strongest attack lost out to Luffys, on top of Kaidos own admission that Joyboy could beat him.

It doesn’t get any clearer than that, Joyboy is > Kaido.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Sablés (May 13, 2022)

OG sama said:


> No


Therefore, where did you get the idea that the winner necessitates being stronger? It doesn't. Kaido saying that JB will be the one to defeat him (not even in the sense that you think, it wasn't a prophecy. It was a self-deprecating statement) does not entail him being weaker than JB. Simple.



OG sama said:


> Kaidos strongest attack lost out to Luffys


And who has doubted that? This entire thread were about the crutches that Kaido had that blur the lines of a victory won by overall power, not to doubt the victory itself.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

OG sama said:


> No but Kaido definitely did.
> 
> Kaidos strongest attack lost out to Luffys, on top of Kaidos own admission that Joyboy could beat him.
> 
> It doesn’t get any clearer than that, Joyboy is > Kaido.


Kaido's strongest attack after fighting for hours with no rest and while holding an island. 
Moreover, Luffy overpowering Kaido's attack doesn't mean much in the long run. It'll all be about stamina.
So even if G5 Luffy got to be >= than Kaido as a level, stamina will be a great issue. Also note that the attack connected because Kaido chose to take it on directly, when he could've dodged, as Luffy couldn't hold him anymore.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sablés (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Also note that the attack connected because Kaido chose to take it on directly, when he could've dodged, as Luffy couldn't hold him anymore.


I don't like this sort of argument either. Kaido IC wouldn't and didn't run from a direct contest of strength. Kaido evading would have been a blow to his pride.


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## Canute87 (May 13, 2022)

Who knows at this stage.


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## Duhul10 (May 13, 2022)

Sablés said:


> I don't like this sort of argument either. Kaido IC wouldn't and didn't run from a direct contest of strength. Kaido evading would have been a blow to his pride.


I don't disagree with this, but here we're taking into account a BD scenario where they'd both do their best to win, at least that's what I believe.
IC, Kaido would take it on, but even then, if he starts fresh, after all that he's taken, I seriously doubt the attack would put him down. Also we need to take into account the fact that G5 seems to cost Luffy quite a lot healthwise.


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## zoro (May 13, 2022)

I'm voting yes because I'd have voted no after the Doffy and Kata fights and Oda proved me wrong both times and I'm tired of getting hurt

Reactions: Agree 1


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## shintebukuro (May 13, 2022)

They're essentially the same strength, with Luffy maybe a tad higher after he's healed. We're just going to move on, as usual...


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## lightcrowler (May 13, 2022)

If Luffy is now able to do G4 attacks without spending a shitload of haki, like he is able to do in his awakened form, then yes, Luffy is stronger.  I really need to see Luffy when he’s fresh and what abilities of his got upgraded after he awakened  his fruit.


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## Shunsuiju (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Kaido's strongest attack after fighting for hours with no rest and while holding an island.
> Moreover, Luffy overpowering Kaido's attack doesn't mean much in the long run. It'll all be about stamina.
> So even if G5 Luffy got to be >= than Kaido as a level, stamina will be a great issue. Also note that the attack connected because Kaido chose to take it on directly, when he could've dodged, as Luffy couldn't hold him anymore.


Actually agreed.

It was the same with Doflamingo. Luffy had a really strict limitation on his new found powerup, and without the help of outside interference he would've lost. There are a few key differences but overall I think Kaido>Luffy is fair and after another fight he'll have truly surpassed him.

So currently: Akainu>/<Kaido>Luffy
And after another fight: Luffy>Akainu>/<Kaido

Or something like that.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 13, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> with no rest


lies lol

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Sherlōck (May 13, 2022)

I think current Luffy is old Ray level. He is going to need one more fight to power up before facing BB who very likely will have already beat CPO leader Mr. Snitch by then.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Adhominem (May 13, 2022)

Luffy is weaker than Kaido in the same way he was weaker than Doflamingo.

Without intervention from the whole island Doflamingo kills him instantly after G4 fades

Same thing with Kaido. G5 > Kaido, Luffy <


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## MartyMcFly1 (May 13, 2022)

Turrin said:


> This is the same shit as with Doflamingo. People claimed worse condition is why he lost but can’t explain how better condition would allow Doffy to do any better against King Kong Gun; like wise there is no one offering an explanation as to how a better condition Kaidou would have overcome Barjang Gun when his Burning Hakke Attack failed.
> 
> —-
> Also from a narrative prospective do you really think Kaidou means the guy who beats me, but normally wouldn’t, is Joy boy lol. Come on it s not a hard manga to understand
> ...


One Piece is a simple story.




Adhominem said:


> Luffy is weaker than Kaido in the same way he was weaker than Doflamingo.
> 
> Without intervention from the whole island Doflamingo kills him instantly after G4 fades
> 
> Same thing with Kaido. G5 > Kaido, Luffy <


Oda said Luffy would have won anyway.


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## Adhominem (May 13, 2022)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> One Piece is a simple story.
> 
> 
> 
> Oda said Luffy would have won anyway.



Then there we go, why do we even need this discussion. People try to make up all this complicated quadratic math about how this and that demonstrates this guy was handicapped here and there but this Yonko saga which is about Luffy summiting the Yonko and finally breaking past the world order of the current generation, and now Luffys defeated Kaido. The point being Luffy is above Kaido, /thread

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## featherine augustus (May 13, 2022)

Adhominem said:


> Luffy is weaker than Kaido in the same way he was weaker than Doflamingo.
> 
> Without intervention from the whole island Doflamingo kills him instantly after G4 fades
> 
> Same thing with Kaido. G5 > Kaido, Luffy <


--Nah Kaido took wayyy more attacks + Lifting an island + Could have dodged luffy's bajrang gun

--Doffy was already weaker than G4 where Kaido at the end was better than G5 minus bajrung gun. 

--Kaido also has FS so he can dodge it

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## The crazy hacker (May 14, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> --Nah Kaido took wayyy more attacks + Lifting an island + Could have dodged luffy's bajrang gun
> 
> --Doffy was already weaker than G4 where Kaido at the end was better than G5 minus bajrung gun.
> 
> --Kaido also has FS so he can dodge it


Nope G5>=Kaido.


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Nope G5>=Kaido.


Nope Kaido > G5 in general.  Bajrung gun is stronger than Kaido's attacks but it can be dodged


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## The crazy hacker (May 14, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Nope Kaido > G5 in general.  Bajrung gun is stronger than Kaido's attacks but it can be dodged


Luffy can dodge Kaidos attacks as well. He will overpower him in the end that is what is shown.


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Luffy can dodge Kaidos attacks as well. He will overpower him in the end that is what is shown.


Nah  Kaido was pummeling G5 luffy at the end and Kaido has better stamina/endurance also

Nah luffy has to hold in order to land bajrung gun where Kaido himself implies it can be dodged


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## MartyMcFly1 (May 14, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Did Oden lose because he was weaker than Kaido?


No, but Luffy had an ‘Oden moment’ during their fight and took an extremely powerful attack completely unguarded and still won. Not the best comparison IMO.


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## Heart Over Blade (May 14, 2022)

Kaidou said he wasn't going to run away, said nothing about being able to dodge Bajrang Gun. That is the implication behind "not going anywhere". Dodging and staying inside Luffy's attack range isn't "going somewhere". If he wanted to say he wasn't going to dodge he would've just used the Japanese word for dodge instead of wording that implies not running away.  Obviously Kaidou wasn't going to run away and admit he's not strong enough to match it.

Even if Kaidou chose to dodge it, not like Kaidou's FS has been dodging Luffy's own FS attacks with any real consistency to make it a practical strategy to counter Bajrang Gun. The dodge rate has been less than 50%. He'd make himself an even easier target by getting even closer to Luffy's and his island sized fist to counter, giving himself less time to react to the next swing. Even if he does dodge it the first time Luffy will just swing it again and again. Look at how long Luffy maintained that clash despite being near death and exhaustion.   Kaidou isn't going to keep dodging someone with top tier speed and FS, with his less than 50% dodge rate, against an island sized fist in melee range. Holding on to someone to make sure an attack lands doesn't mean the attack will miss if not holding on to them. If Kaidou could dodge it consistently at the time, it'd only be because Onigashima was too close and Luffy didn't want to hit it. Wouldn't look good to win by relying on another hostage. This is assuming he doesn't change into his island sized Flaming Drum Dragon clad with a thick CoA/CoC barrier. If he does then he can forget about dodging.  

This excuse has alraedy been debunked in multiple threads, including the one that started it. Anyone who wants to reply to this just remember to address all the points I brought up or I'll be sure to catch whatever you couldn't refute.


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## Dellinger (May 14, 2022)

Let me ask you this

Can Luffy go through the same shit as Kaido ? Fight the scabbards, fight the [Blocked Domain], fight Luffy solo again, fight Yamato, fight Luffy again, fight the entire floor until Luffy gets up with a god tier power up that was on hold for 800 years, still push Luffys shit in and the lose in Luffys biggest attack

if you think that Luffy can do the same shit with Kaido then he is stronger.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartyMcFly1 (May 14, 2022)

Dellinger said:


> Let me ask you this
> 
> Can Luffy go through the same shit as Kaido ? Fight the scabbards, fight the [Blocked Domain], fight Luffy solo again, fight Yamato, fight Luffy again, fight the entire floor until Luffy gets up with a god tier power up that was on hold for 800 years, still push Luffys shit in and the lose in Luffys biggest attack
> 
> if you think that Luffy can do the same shit with Kaido then he is stronger.


With his current skill set? I think he could probably defeat all of those opponents in a row except for the last one.

He’d probably take less attacks willingly though, but that’s what Kaido likes to do.


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## Dellinger (May 14, 2022)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> With his current skill set? I think he could probably defeat all of those opponents in a row except for the last one.
> 
> He’d probably take less attacks willingly though, but that’s what Kaido likes to do.


Takes less attacks but he’d be more damage by Zoros attacks, Laws, scabbards etc 

you guys really underestimate what Kaido went through without rest.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartyMcFly1 (May 14, 2022)

Dellinger said:


> Takes less attacks but he’d be more damage by Zoros attacks, Laws, scabbards etc
> 
> you guys really underestimate what Kaido went through without rest.


None of those attacks prior to Zoro’s were really hurting him like that. Taking ACoC attacks from Kaido trumps everything he got hit with prior to Zoro landing his attack.

If anything all of those attacks he took are being overestimated.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dellinger (May 14, 2022)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> None of those attacks prior to Zoro’s were really hurting him like that. Taking ACoC attacks from Kaido trumps everything he got hit with prior to Zoro landing his attack.
> 
> If anything all of those attacks he took are being overestimated.


So bleeding from attacks means that they weren’t hurting him ? Good to know

Jack took an island sized trunk and survived and Kaido took a combined advanced CoA attack from at least 3 guys stronger than Jack. Is that an overestimation ?


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## Sablés (May 14, 2022)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> No, but Luffy had an ‘Oden moment’ during their fight and took an extremely powerful attack completely unguarded and still won. Not the best comparison IMO.


That wasn't a comparison to Luffy.
That was me attacking the supposition that X beating Y necessitates that X is stronger than Y. Purely in relation to the "Joyboy prophecy" of beating Kaido. It never said JB had to be stronger, only that he would win.


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## MartyMcFly1 (May 14, 2022)

Sablés said:


> That wasn't a comparison to Luffy.
> That was me attacking the supposition that X beating Y necessitates that X is stronger than Y. Purely in relation to the "Joyboy prophecy" of beating Kaido. It never said JB had to be stronger, only that he would win.


I get what you’re saying, but that specific comparison sort of points to the opposite. Even with that cheap shot Kaido still wasn’t able to win.


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## Dellinger (May 14, 2022)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> I get what you’re saying, but that specific comparison sort of points to the opposite. Even with that cheap shot Kaido still wasn’t able to win.


Luffy literally died and had to awaken to a god to survive. Narrator says Kaido won, Luffy says he lost. How didn’t Kaido win ?


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## MartyMcFly1 (May 14, 2022)

Dellinger said:


> Luffy literally died and had to awaken to a god to survive. Narrator says Kaido won, Luffy says he lost. How didn’t Kaido win ?


Because Luffy got right back up and the fight continued. Kaido even went as far as to apologize for what happened and was happy they could continue.

Isn’t Seiryu a God?

Reactions: Like 1


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## OG sama (May 14, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Therefore, where did you get the idea that the winner necessitates being stronger? It doesn't. Kaido saying that JB will be the one to defeat him (not even in the sense that you think, it wasn't a prophecy. It was a self-deprecating statement) does not entail him being weaker than JB. Simple.
> 
> 
> And who has doubted that? This entire thread were about the crutches that Kaido had that blur the lines of a victory won by overall power, not to doubt the victory itself.


What did the manga state that contradicts what I am trying to get you to understand? Nothing, the manga just reinforces it.

We see Joyboy overpower Kaidos strongest attack with his own, while that is going on we get dialogue from Kaido stating that Joyboy can defeat him.

So Joyboy can defeat Kaido because he is stronger than Kaido, it’s simple.


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## Sablés (May 14, 2022)

OG sama said:


> Nothing, the manga just reinforces it.


It doesn't. The manga says JB will beat Kaido. Nowhere is it mentioned that JB is stronger.


OG sama said:


> We see Joyboy overpower Kaidos strongest attack with his own


Which, again, doesn't make him stronger, unless you believe that AP alone wins the fight. What people have been trying to get across to you is that Kaido is gimped by dragging an island even while being pushed to the limit in his direct fights, so Luffy's victory is not a legitimate representation of power levels. Take it or leave it. There is nothing more to discuss.


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## OG sama (May 14, 2022)

Also we talking about stamina but Luffy can literally restart his heartbeat an unknown amount of times, on top of having ridiculous endurance in the mode, any damage he takes is comical and and superficial even against someone as strong as Kaido.

If this fight restarts, I feel it can still go either way. Stamina will be a big factor, but the stronger fighter is definitely Luffy.

If Kaido has to rely on Luffy exhausting his self then he is in fact inferior otherwise.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OG sama (May 14, 2022)

Sablés said:


> It doesn't. The manga says JB will beat Kaido. Nowhere is it mentioned that JB is stronger.
> 
> Which, again, doesn't make him stronger, unless you believe that AP alone wins the fight. What people have been trying to get across to you is that Kaido is gimped by dragging an island even while being pushed to the limit in his direct fights, so Luffy's victory is not a legitimate representation of power levels. Take it or leave it. There is nothing more to discuss.


Fair.

I can’t speak on the unknown like that.


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## Shunsuiju (May 14, 2022)

Sablés said:


> It doesn't. The manga says JB will beat Kaido. Nowhere is it mentioned that JB is stronger.


Kaido said Joyboy would be capable of beating him. There isn't really much room for ambiguity there. Although we haven't seen a really credible translation yet so who knows what he meant.


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 14, 2022)

Dark Knight said:


> If G5 does not have a silly time limit like G4, then there is no ifs or buts about it, Luffy is stronger than Kaido.


I don't think we have seen a time limit on G5 yet, it seems as long as Luffy beats his heart to the Drum rhythm he doesn't get out of it.

The side effects upon exiting G5 though , now that's something we will have to wait and see.


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## Heart Over Blade (May 14, 2022)

Max AP wise Luffy > Kaidou right now. Bajrang Gun vastly eclipses any attack Kaidou has taken in this war. No one that has landed attacks on Kaidou in this arc even landed anything that hits anywhere as hard as Kaidou's Death Destroyer Bagua in hybrid form, let alone Bajrang gun which surpasses the strongest Bagua from Kaidou's strongest form. So the damage that those puny attacks did individually aren't really comparable in scale to Bajrang Gun. They barely get through Kaidou's haki and scales.

If Luffy busts out his ultimate from the start and Kaidou is forced to deal with it without running away, and we already know Kaidou wouldn't run away like a coward, it becomes a matter of how many Bajrang Guns can a fresh Luffy deliver while restarting his G5 once in a while VS how many can Kaidou take while countering and clashing with his Flaming Drum Dragon, since dodging an island sized fist is even harder when you're an island sized dragon clad in a huge CoA/CoC barrier armor. Trying to fight G5 Luffy's ultimate in its swing range in any form other than Flaming Drum Dragon is just asking to be squashed. Because his counters won't deal anywhere near the amount of damage that Bajrang Gun does.  Since Bajrang Gun can withstand Kaidou's strongest attack without having its haki barrier breached, nothing else that hybrid/dragon Kaidou throws from range is getting through that either if Luffy uses his mega fist to block.

In conclusion, we don't know. We have to see how long a fresh G5 from 100% stamina lasts with heart restarts and
whether he has enough time to successfully hit Kaidou with his ultimate several times. I think Luffy with plot restrictions would sometimes let G5 run out instead of pumping his heart to restart it every time.


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## Bobybobster (May 14, 2022)

luffy powered through 3 ultimate bagua's from kaido and still won, tanked a ton of other named attacks and regular acoc ones, yet people still doubt his endurance

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## J★J♥ (May 14, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> G5 is slightly stronger than Kaido but I think Kaido has more stamina so he wins.


He did not run out of stamina he got knocked the fuck out lol. Unless he stands up its a W for Luffy.


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## Turrin (May 14, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Yes? Do you think Kaido gives a shit about the hows and whys? They're pirates. They don't make excuses, just as Luffy didn't make an excuse for himself when Brulee cheap-shotted him in his fight against Katakuri.
> 
> Law and Kidd triumphed over Big Mom. Do you think the world will really care about how it happened? Do you think Kaido or Luffy did when they heard she was defeated? What about Oden? Do you think WB cared to wrack up the power level details about how Oden could have lost to Kaido? No. But that doesn't mean readers have to think that the winners are stronger, because we can assess the circumstances.
> 
> ...


Yes I do think he cares because otherwise every single one of his other 7 Losses would be Joy Boy. Stop it


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

Kaido lifted an island consuming his stamina

Kaido took way more attacks

Unlike luffy who fed and rejuvenated his stamina Kaido has been fighting non stop

Till the end Kaido was in offensive position

Bajrung gun can be dodged by Kaido

But no doubt luffy has more powerful attack in bajrung gun

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Chaos Hokage (May 14, 2022)

Amol said:


> As someone who still considers Kaido stronger than Luffy I think I have to point out the double standards.
> 
> Kaido wasn't the only person who was weakened. Luffy was injured too.
> 
> If you are gonna make argument that Kaido's attack would have been stronger in fresh state then so would have been Luffy's attack. That logic works for both of them.



​
Yeah, that's a good point. Luffy did take some damage from Apoo and Ulti before reaching Kaido.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

Chaos Hokage said:


> ​
> Yeah, that's a good point. Luffy did take some damage from Apoo and Ulti before reaching Kaido.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 14, 2022)

1) hybrid Kaido was unable to do any meaningful damage to G5 even with his best aCoC Baguas
2) strongest Susanoo Kaido got one-shotted by 1 big G5 attack

there is no way to spin that Kaido is somehow stronger than Luffy

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Amol (May 14, 2022)

Chaos Hokage said:


> ​
> Yeah, that's a good point. Luffy did take some damage from Apoo and Ulti before reaching Kaido.


Yeah if we are gonna consider damage given by Raizo to Kaido then there is nothing wrong with considering damage done to Luffy by likes of Apoo. 

That wasn't my main point anyway. Luffy had almost "died" apparently. It is not like his injuries had vanished.

I was just pointing out that Kaido wasn't the only injured party here.

There is also the fact that most of the meaningful damage to Kaido was done by Luffy only.

For both Luffy and Kaido, they only had done "meaningful" damage to each other.

I dunno how long we are gonna pretend that Scabbards really did anything to Kaido.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

The more I think more monstrous Kaido was it seems.

Luffy even in G5 is vulnerable to slash attacks

I won't be surprised if ashura attack killed luffy

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 14, 2022)

they hated him because he told the truth

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Rp4lyf (May 14, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> The more I think more monstrous Kaido was it seems.
> 
> Luffy even in G5 is vulnerable to slash attacks
> 
> I won't be surprised if ashura attack killed luffy


Luffy let himself get slahsed and he was not dodging or blocking slashes and he still endured a boro breath right after that without to much damage.

In fact Base Luffy in chapter 1037 dealt with those slashes using advanced haki deflectimg them. 

So no slashes are not a problem for Luffy.


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

Rp4lyf said:


> Luffy let himself get slahsed and he was not dodging or blocking slashes and he still endured a boro breath right after that without to much damage.
> 
> In fact Base Luffy in chapter 1037 dealt with those slashes using advanced haki deflectimg them.
> 
> So no slashes are not a problem for Luffy.


My point being he is weaker to slash attacks in G5

He will bleed like pig from zoro's adv coc attacks


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## Rp4lyf (May 14, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> My point being he is weaker to slash attacks in G5
> 
> He will bleed like pig from zoro's adv coc attacks


Without blocking yes he would bleed, however if he uses advanced haki, the attacks are completely negated.


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## o0Shinthi0o (May 14, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> 1) hybrid Kaido was unable to do any meaningful damage to G5 even with his best aCoC Baguas
> 2) strongest Susanoo Kaido got one-shotted by 1 big G5 attack
> 
> there is no way to spin that Kaido is somehow stronger than Luffy


yea thats cool and all but did u look at Kaidos stamina bro


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 14, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> yea thats cool and all but did u look at Kaidos stamina bro


yeah he gassed out after an hour or two and the only top-tier he has fought is G4/G5 Luffy

Reactions: Funny 1


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

Rp4lyf said:


> Without blocking yes he would bleed, howevr if he uses advanced haki, the attacks are completely negated.


He didn't block when Kaido attacked. Also initially he dodged a slash from Kaido

We are talking about a situation when zoro's asura lands


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## Rp4lyf (May 14, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> He didn't block when Kaido attacked. Also initially he dodged a slash from Kaido
> 
> We are talking about a situation when zoro's asura lands


Yesn he would bleed but he can take multiple Asura's  from Zoro based on the favr that he took stronger attacks from Kaido in rapid succession in chapter's 1047 and 1048. 

And this is 1% health luffy.


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

I wonder how BB will surpass kaido


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## MrPopo (May 14, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> I wonder how BB will surpass kaido


BB has two of the most broken fruits

Reactions: Like 1


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

Rp4lyf said:


> Yesn he would bleed but he can take multiple Asura's  from Zoro based on the favr that he took stronger attacks from Kaido in rapid succession in chapter's 1047 and 1048.
> 
> And this is 1% health luffy.


No he will get hurt bad

Luffy complete reversed his situation with G5 when he came back from death

He was 70 percent at least


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## o0Shinthi0o (May 14, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> BB has two of the most broken fruits


and a 3rd one is incoming


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## Rp4lyf (May 14, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> No he will get hurt bad
> 
> Luffy complete reversed his situation with G5 when he came back from death
> 
> He was 70 percent at least


Nope, he was still 70%. This is proven by chpater 1045 when he was knocked out of Gear 5 with 1 club attack. 

Those same attacks he was taking in base form without proboems in chapter's 1036 and 1037 

Oda also.made sure to mention Luffy being dead pre awakening, so.people like you could not spew the BS that you did.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (May 14, 2022)

If G5 doesn't wear off, fresh Luffy can beat fresh Kaido.  It's like in Dressrosa, G4 Luffy is stronger than Doflamingo but Luffy overall is weaker than Doflamingo because he needs outside help to beat Doflamingo.  The question is does G5 have side effects.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 14, 2022)

G5 lasted for *chapters* despite Luffy being near dead before
and Kaido was one-shotted

There is no reason for fresh G5 to have any issues

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Superstars (May 14, 2022)

Adhominem said:


> Then there we go, why do we even need this discussion. People try to make up all this complicated quadratic math about how this and that demonstrates this guy was handicapped here and there but this Yonko saga which is about Luffy summiting the Yonko and finally breaking past the world order of the current generation, and now Luffys defeated Kaido. The point being Luffy is above Kaido, /thread


But the pride in Kaidoh fans don't want to accept the truth. So they dance around it with bitter dog pile and cope formula's to ease their pain.

Luffy is above Kaidoh. We are moving on to bigger fish. It's just the way of the Shounen world.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

Rp4lyf said:


> Nope, he was still 70%. This is proven by chpater 1045 when he was knocked out of Gear 5 with 1 club attack.
> 
> Those same attacks he was taking in base form without proboems in chapter's 1036 and 1037
> 
> Oda also.made sure to mention Luffy being dead pre awakening, so.people like you could not spew the BS that you did.


Yes G5 was at 75% where Kaido was on his knees and was at 5% strength

Luffy got a complete healing in G5 plus he eat in between rejuvenating his stamina unlike Kaido who has continuously been fighting while lifting an island

Still Kaido was doing good and could have dodged bajrung gun

Kaido no doubt is more powerful than G5. Claiming otherwise is nonsensical


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

Superstars said:


> But the pride in Kaidoh fans don't want to accept the truth. So they dance around it with bitter dog pile and cope formula's to ease their pain.
> 
> Luffy is above Kaidoh. We are moving on to bigger fish. It's just the way of the Shounen world.


Lol trash arguments. Your brain is bitter dog pile

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Superstars (May 14, 2022)

Superstars said:


> But the pride in Kaidoh fans don't want to accept the truth. So they dance around it with bitter dog pile and cope formula's to ease their pain.
> 
> Luffy is above Kaidoh. We are moving on to bigger fish. It's just the way of the Shounen world.


...



featherine augustus said:


> Lol trash arguments. Your brain is bitter dog pile


I rest my case.

Reactions: Funny 5 | Winner 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (May 14, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Yes G5 was at 75% where Kaido was on his knees and was at 5% strength



Completely baseless you just made this up

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Completely baseless you just made this up


Just like the guy who quoted me


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

--Its pretty clear without bajrung gun Kaido is more powerful ; Bajrung is a stationary move hence luffy was grabbing Kaido.

--Kaido also says he will take it head on proving if he wants he can dodge it or at least move out of its way

--Bajrung gun no dobut > Any of Kaido's attacks but that is not everything


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## Heart Over Blade (May 14, 2022)

Kaidou can move out of the way of Bajrang Gun by retreating, a cowardly move he implied he wouldn't make. That was the implication behind "not going anywhere". In that case Luffy would have to chase him down while Kaidou keeps retreating out of range . Other than that, trying to repeatedly dodge a small island sized mega fist guided by FS with his less than 50% dodge rate despite his own FS while staying in attack range is a pointless move as explained here


Heart Over Blade said:


> Kaidou said he wasn't going to run away, said nothing about being able to dodge Bajrang Gun. That is the implication behind "not going anywhere". Dodging and staying inside Luffy's attack range isn't "going somewhere". If he wanted to say he wasn't going to dodge he would've just used the Japanese word for dodge instead of wording that implies not running away. Obviously Kaidou wasn't going to run away and admit he's not strong enough to match it.
> 
> Even if Kaidou chose to dodge it, not like Kaidou's FS has been dodging Luffy's own FS attacks with any real consistency to make it a practical strategy to counter Bajrang Gun. The dodge rate has been less than 50%. He'd make himself an even easier target by getting even closer to Luffy's and his island sized fist to counter, giving himself less time to react to the next swing. Even if he does dodge it the first time Luffy will just swing it again and again. Look at how long Luffy maintained that clash despite being near death and exhaustion. Kaidou isn't going to keep dodging someone with top tier speed and FS, with his less than 50% dodge rate, against an island sized fist in melee range. Holding on to someone to make sure an attack lands doesn't mean the attack will miss if not holding on to them. If Kaidou could dodge it consistently at the time, it'd only be because Onigashima was too close and Luffy didn't want to hit it. Wouldn't look good to win by relying on another hostage. This is assuming he doesn't change into his island sized Flaming Drum Dragon clad with a thick CoA/CoC barrier. If he does then he can forget about dodging.
> 
> This excuse has alraedy been debunked in multiple threads, including the one that started it. Anyone who wants to reply to this just remember to address all the points I brought up or I'll be sure to catch whatever you couldn't refute


He's still at risk of being clobbered by it while not being able to mount a counter that deals anywhere near the amount of damage that Bajrang Gun does. Get too close and he reduces his less than 50% dodge rate even further.

Reactions: Like 1


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Kaidou can move out of the way of Bajrang Gun by retreating, a cowardly move he implied he wouldn't make. That was the implication behind "not going anywhere". In that case Luffy would have to chase him down while Kaidou keeps retreating out of range . Other than that, trying to repeatedly dodge a small island sized mega fist guided by FS with his less than 50% dodge rate despite his own FS while staying in attack range is a pointless move as explained here
> 
> He's still at risk of being clobbered by it while not being able to mount a counter that deals anywhere near the amount of damage that Bajrang Gun does. Get too close and he reduces his less than 50% dodge rate even further.


Lol Kaido in dragon form plus FS countered Luffy's snakeman

Luffy is stationary given he was not letting go of Kaido

He can dodge the attack no doubt


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## Heart Over Blade (May 14, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Lol Kaido in dragon form plus FS countered Luffy's snakeman


Yet he still has a lower than 50% dodge rate despite it. He got smacked to the floor right after that too by Boundman, a form slower than Snakeman. 

Also Luffy
 was able to move his body while charging that fist to dodge the air slashes, so no he isn't stationery. If he didn't  move far it's only because he was still holding onto Kaidou. What matters is that his long arm and fist isn't stationery.


featherine augustus said:


> We can dodge the attack no doubt


With his less than 50% dodge rate he'll get caught in no time at all 

That less than 50% dodge rate goes down to like 0  if Luffy grabs a hold of him again.


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## shit (May 14, 2022)

I said yes cuz he won duh

But then I remembered the five on two rooftop fight

But I gotta go with Luffy because he unlocked a new power up and kaido didn't

So if they fought again Luffy would have a fight under his belt with that power up and be considerably stronger than he was going into this fight

That's why protagonists generally win is because they grow and their opponents don't

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jin22 (May 14, 2022)

Kaidou took some heavy blows including that scar Zoro left him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (May 14, 2022)

ClannadFan said:


> Luffy bodied Doffy. Didn't Oda go out of his way to point out that Luffy would of won even if nobody helped?


The next SBS will be eichero stating luffy could one on one kaido 

The patterns


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## featherine augustus (May 14, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Yet he still has a lower than 50% dodge rate despite it. He got smacked to the floor right after that too by Boundman, a form slower than Snakeman.
> 
> Also Luffy
> was able to move his body while charging that fist to dodge the air slashes, so no he isn't stationery. If he didn't  move far it's only because he was still holding onto Kaidou. What matters is that his long arm and fist isn't stationery.
> ...


Less that 50% dodge rate? Meaning?


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## o0Shinthi0o (May 15, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> --Its pretty clear without bajrung gun Kaido is more powerful ; Bajrung is a stationary move hence luffy was grabbing Kaido.
> 
> --Kaido also says he will take it head on proving if he wants he can dodge it or at least move out of its way
> 
> --Bajrung gun no dobut > Any of Kaido's attacks but that is not everything


And Kaido could not make Luffy let go of him even after trying his hardest . But he finally succeed when he turned big aka bigger target to hit .

Not proving he CAN dodge it , proving he will not run away , so Luffy don't need to worry about holding Kaido until Onigasima is out of way

Yea BG > Kaidos strongest attack . But that's not only it , also G5 can tank advCoC attacks from Kaido all day , even with his eyes closed . G5 is just better than Kaido , period .

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Heart Over Blade (May 15, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Less that 50% dodge rate? Meaning?


Meaning Kaidou's gotten hit more times than he managed to dodge while using FS. That's why Luffy was still able to tag him with a slower form like Boundman. Kaidou can't dodge that consistently against someone who also has FS. If he can't dodge consistently then dodging Bajrang Gun once or twice is pointless, because he's still going to get hit without being able to deal back anywhere near the amount of damage Luffy's ultimate deals.

That was all without Luffy grabbing a hold of him first. If Luffy does grab him then he can forget about dodging until Luffy lets go, unless he powers up to his island sized Flaming Drum Dragon form. But then his own sheer size makes it much harder to dodge regardless.


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## Bernkastel (May 15, 2022)

No he is not yet...by next arc he should be.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chip Skylark (May 15, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Kaidou can move out of the way of Bajrang Gun by retreating, a cowardly move he implied he wouldn't make. That was the implication behind "not going anywhere". In that case Luffy would have to chase him down while Kaidou keeps retreating out of range . Other than that, trying to repeatedly dodge a small island sized mega fist guided by FS with his less than 50% dodge rate despite his own FS while staying in attack range is a pointless move as explained here
> 
> He's still at risk of being clobbered by it while not being able to mount a counter that deals anywhere near the amount of damage that Bajrang Gun does. Get too close and he reduces his less than 50% dodge rate even further.


Pretty sure you've already acknowledged the fact that Kaido only could've dodged because Luffy was waiting for the island to be moved? Why are you treating it like Kaido could dodge under neutral circumstances?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 15, 2022)

Jin22 said:


> Kaidou took some heavy blows including that scar Zoro left him.


that was a tiny scratch


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## featherine augustus (May 15, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Meaning Kaidou's gotten hit more times than he managed to dodge while using FS. That's why Luffy was still able to tag him with a slower form like Boundman. Kaidou can't dodge that consistently against someone who also has FS. If he can't dodge consistently then dodging Bajrang Gun once or twice is pointless, because he's still going to get hit without being able to deal back anywhere near the amount of damage Luffy's ultimate deals.
> 
> That was all without Luffy grabbing a hold of him first. If Luffy does grab him then he can forget about dodging until Luffy lets go, unless he powers up to his island sized Flaming Drum Dragon form. But then his own sheer size makes it much harder to dodge regardless.


No when Kaido used FS first time he DODGED all of snakeman's attacks

And even at the end he was dodging Luffy's attacks like lightning one


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## featherine augustus (May 15, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> And Kaido could not make Luffy let go of him even after trying his hardest . But he finally succeed when he turned big aka bigger target to hit .
> 
> Not proving he CAN dodge it , proving he will not run away , so Luffy don't need to worry about holding Kaido until Onigasima is out of way
> 
> Yea BG > Kaidos strongest attack . But that's not only it , also G5 can tank advCoC attacks from Kaido all day , even with his eyes closed . G5 is just better than Kaido , period .


No Kaido did it at the end and that has nothing to do with Kaido dodging the attack easily

His statement about taking it Head on is a good PROVE he can dodge for most part as we see him using high speed against snakeman luffy

Kaido can take more attacks than luffy and doesn't have any time limit


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## o0Shinthi0o (May 15, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> No Kaido did it at the end and that has nothing to do with Kaido dodging the attack easily
> 
> His statement about taking it Head on is a good PROVE he can dodge for most part as we see him using high speed against snakeman luffy
> 
> Kaido can take more attacks than luffy and doesn't have any time limit


When ? After turning into island size or in hybrid? or Zone form ?

Its does not PROVE cause he did not say he can dodge EASILY . Luffy was holding Kaido thats why se said dont worry i wount run away & take the attack head on .

Yes vs Fodders & G4 ,but G5 is another thing . First serious G5 attack Overpowered Kaido . No matter how u say . It does not change the fact G5 Luffy has better AP than Kaido & tanked each & every attack Kaido throw at him EASILY


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## featherine augustus (May 15, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> When ? After turning into island size or in hybrid? or Zone form ?
> 
> Its does not PROVE cause he did not say he can dodge EASILY . Luffy was holding Kaido thats why se said dont worry i wount run away & take the attack head on .
> 
> Yes vs Fodders & G4 ,but G5 is another thing . First serious G5 attack Overpowered Kaido . No matter how u say . It does not change the fact G5 Luffy has better AP than Kaido & tanked each & every attack Kaido throw at him EASILY


Keep you eyes wide open so you can see it lol

Or are you saying Luffy's arm will follow where ever Kaido will go?

It does because  Kaido can dodge

Kaido was playing ping pong with g5 luffy. Hell giant Luffy's head was wacked by Kaido

Luffy performed good against dragon kaido in G5


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## o0Shinthi0o (May 15, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Keep you eyes wide open so you can see it lol
> 
> Or are you saying Luffy's arm will follow where ever Kaido will go?
> 
> ...


after Kaido turned island size , only then Luffy let go not b4 that ? r u suggesting that island size Kaido can somehow get out of the way in time ?   

Yes, thats exactly what i am saying . There is not enough time . Only reason Luffy delayed his attack is because of Onigasima . & was holding Kaido so that he does not get above Onigasima .

again by Kaido dodge which form r u referring to ?Surely not the big as flame dragon form ? right?  

Yea, and Luffy was playing jump rope with Kaido, trampoline with his eyes closed & was naming his attack that ground Kaido .

Kaido performed good against the Sun God G5 until Luffy stop playing around ( Kaidos word ) got super serious , then he ended by overpowering Kaido


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## Grinningfox (May 15, 2022)

Dellinger said:


> Let me ask you this
> 
> Can Luffy go through the same shit as Kaido ? Fight the scabbards, fight the [Blocked Domain], fight Luffy solo again, fight Yamato, fight Luffy again, fight the entire floor until Luffy gets up with a god tier power up that was on hold for 800 years, still push Luffys shit in and the lose in Luffys biggest attack
> 
> if you think that Luffy can do the same shit with Kaido then he is stronger.


I don’t think this is the metric that should be used to judge who’s stronger.


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## featherine augustus (May 15, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> after Kaido turned island size , only then Luffy let go not b4 that ? r u suggesting that island size Kaido can somehow get out of the way in time ?
> 
> Yes, thats exactly what i am saying . There is not enough time . Only reason Luffy delayed his attack is because of Onigasima . & was holding Kaido so that he does not get above Onigasima .
> 
> ...


Lets agree to disagree then

For me Kaido > luffy minus bajrung gun which can be dodged


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## Heart Over Blade (May 15, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> No when Kaido used FS first time he DODGED all of snakeman's attacks
> 
> And even at the end he was dodging Luffy's attacks like lightning one


No, Kaidou dodged *one *named attack after taking a bunch, countered,  then proceeded to get slapped to the floor by Luffy's *slower *form.


Just because Luffy had arms extending in multiple directions doesn't mean it was multiple attacks. It's still one Culverin, which has always changed directions many times before hitting the opponent to make it less predictable.
So we're just going to cherry pick the times he dodged and ignore the times he couldn't?

*None of that changes the fact that he got hit more times than he dodged despite using FS.*

And again, all of his less than 50% probability of dodging goes out the window if Luffy grabs a hold of him first before punching him.



Chip Skylark said:


> Pretty sure you've already acknowledged the fact that Kaido only could've dodged because Luffy was waiting for the island to be moved? Why are you treating it like Kaido could dodge under neutral circumstances?


Because people like @featherine augustus still act like he could, while giving me examples of FS Kaidou's less than 50% dodge rate managing to dodge some of Luffy's attacks. So I'm entertaining that notion and pointing out how pointless it is to dodge Bajrang once or twice even if Kaidou got lucky and didn't get hit the first time.

If you feel that there's a better way to enlighten them then by all means tell them yourself.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## MO (May 15, 2022)

no, he is not yet.


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## Chip Skylark (May 15, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Because people like @featherine augustus still act like he could, while giving me examples of FS Kaidou's less than 50% dodge rate managing to dodge some of Luffy's attacks. So I'm entertaining that notion and pointing out how pointless it is to dodge Bajrang once or twice even if Kaidou got lucky and didn't get hit the first time.
> 
> If you feel that there's a better way to enlighten them then by all means tell them yourself.


think I just misread the discussion. Thought you were saying something else. My b.


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## Inferno Jewls (May 15, 2022)

Luffy has completely surpassed Kaidou, now it's time for the admirals, shanks, bb

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## featherine augustus (May 15, 2022)

@Heart Over Blade Prove that Kaido was using adv coc then? Unless you believe boundman speed > Snakeman's lol

--The whole 50% is bullshit and you know it

--At the end kaido was playing ping pong with luffy dodging his punches and lightning and blitzing with more powerful baguas 

--Anyways Kaido 90% dodges something as one dimension as bajrung gun


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## Heart Over Blade (May 15, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> @Heart Over Blade Prove that Kaido was using adv coc then? Unless you believe boundman speed > Snakeman's lol


Since when did CoC matter when we're talking about dodging? I don't need to prove something pointless.


featherine augustus said:


> -The whole 50% is bullshit and you know it
> 
> --At the end kaido was playing ping pong with luffy dodging his punches and lightning and blitzing with more powerful baguas


If you want to claim the whole 50% is bullshit then prove your claim with manga statistics. If you're scare to do so then you're just proving me right. You tried to bring up when he dodged Snakeman's one attack and it backfired when I showed you he got slapped by Boundman right after.

Him taking more hits than he dodged is just facts. Your unsubstantiated opinion claiming otherwise is what's BS. 



"Playing ping pong". Again, cherry picking the instances where he dodged while ignoring all the instances where he failed. How many hit did he dodge while playing ping pong, 1? Doesn't erase the fact that he got hit many times prior.

You say 90%, manga says it's not even 50%.


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## Inferno Jewls (May 15, 2022)

Kaidou ass lickers not removing their tongue from the ogre no matter what, even if the Ogre himself says so 


_*Kaido: JoyBoy will be the one to defeat me

KaidoWanks: Kaido is just joking right..*_

Reactions: Funny 2


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## featherine augustus (May 15, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Since when did CoC matter when we're talking about dodging? I don't need to prove something pointless.
> 
> If you want to claim the whole 50% is bullshit then prove your claim with manga statistics. If you're scare to do so then you're just proving me right. You tried to bring up when he dodged Snakeman's one attack and it backfired when I showed you he got slapped by Boundman right after.
> 
> ...


I mean adv coo 

You started with 50% bull shit lol. But but Kaido only dodges 50% of the attacks lol ; its because he doesn't uses it all time just like luffy reacted to TB in base but was getting hit by kaido in G5

Anyways this is irrelevant and you bring bullshit statistics WHERE KAIDO HIMSELF SAYS HE WILL TAKE IT HEADON MEANING HE HAD OTHER OPTIONS LIKE DODGING


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## featherine augustus (May 15, 2022)

Inferno Jewls said:


> Kaidou ass lickers not removing their tongue from the ogre no matter what, even if the Ogre himself says so
> 
> 
> _*Kaido: JoyBoy will be the one to defeat me
> ...


Akainu is blueno so I can understand your feelings


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## Heart Over Blade (May 15, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> I mean adv coo
> 
> You started with 50% bull shit lol. But but Kaido only dodges 50% of the attacks lol ; its because he doesn't uses it all time just like luffy reacted to TB in base but was getting hit by kaido in G5


Not really a valid excuse. You can't prove he stopped using once he started. Before he started using it even base Luffy was keeping up with him, and G4 was too fast for him. Then he could keep up with G4 and 5 once he started using FS. That's how we know he was still using it.

If that's a valid excuse then I want to ask you where's your proof that Luffy was using FS in the attacks that missed Kaidou?

Even if you were right about Kaidou (which you're not) not using FS it just means his CoO isn't good enough to be upkept consistently for every incoming attack.


featherine augustus said:


> Anyways this is irrelevant and you bring bullshit statistics WHERE KAIDO HIMSELF SAYS HE WILL TAKE IT HEADON MEANING HE HAD OTHER OPTIONS LIKE DODGING


Already debunked weak excuse. His wording of not going anywhere implies he's not going to run away, not that he could dodge. If he could it's only because Onigashima was there as a hostage.


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## Inferno Jewls (May 15, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Akainu is blueno so I can understand your feelings


Why is this Kaidou warrior having a Friday night smackdown toe to toe war with his keyboard because Kaidou isn't being wanked?

Sorry Wankou but I side with Luffy and not Kaidou, Mad?

Wanna come at me with a cope just for it to translate to just a "No I don't agree"

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## featherine augustus (May 15, 2022)

Inferno Jewls said:


> Why is this Kaidou warrior having a Friday night smackdown toe to toe war with his keyboard because Kaidou isn't being wanked?
> 
> Sorry Wankou but I side with Luffy and not Kaidou, Mad?
> 
> Wanna come at me with a cope just for it to translate to just a "No I don't agree"


Akainu is dog of Kaido


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## featherine augustus (May 15, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Not really a valid excuse. You can't prove he stopped using once he started. Before he started using it even base Luffy was keeping up with him, and G4 was too fast for him. Then he could keep up with G4 and 5 once he started using FS. That's how we know he was still using it.
> 
> If that's a valid excuse then I want to ask you where's your proof that Luffy was using FS in the attacks that missed Kaidou?
> 
> ...


What are you even saying at this point lol. You can prove you can't prove blah blah

Tell me one thing -- Can kaido escape luffy's bajrung gun or not? Its a simple powerful attack and Kaido has shown speed to utmaneuver snakeman which is luffy's fastest mode

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Vinsmoke31 (May 15, 2022)

If kaido is 100
Luffy is a 95
So no, but its close now

Reactions: Like 1


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## Inferno Jewls (May 15, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Akainu dogs Kaido


Fixed it for ya

Reactions: Funny 1


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## featherine augustus (May 15, 2022)

Inferno Jewls said:


> Fixed it for ya


I think you made a spelling mistake mate ; akainu dodged Kaido


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## Inferno Jewls (May 15, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> I think you made a spelling mistake mate ; akainu dodged Kaido


the word I used was perfect, Sakazuki put Kaido on a leash and took him for a stroll around mary geoise

The dog takes his bitch for a walk

Reactions: Funny 1


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## featherine augustus (May 15, 2022)

Inferno Jewls said:


> the word I used was perfect, Sakazuki put Kaido on a leash and took him for a stroll around mary geoise
> 
> The dog takes his bitch for a walk


Akainu is Kaido's slave hence is name red dog   

Akainu used to be doffy's slave before becomingmarine

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Heart Over Blade (May 15, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> What are you even saying at this point lol. You can prove you can't prove blah blah


Concession accepted. You want to put the burden of proof on me to prove that Kaidou didn't use FS for the attacks that landed on him after he first started using FS. Yet you yourself can't prove
1. Kaidou stopped using FS
2. Luffy used FS for his attacks that missed.

Even if you succeeded in proving what you wanted to prove here it just means Kaidou's CoO isn't good enough to use FS consistently to dodge every attack.


featherine augustus said:


> Tell me one thing -- Can kaido escape luffy's bajrung gun or not? Its a simple powerful attack and Kaido has shown speed to utmaneuver snakeman which is luffy's fastest mode


He dodged that one Culverin from snakeman, but got slapped by the slower Boundman right after. Manga fact that I already linked a picture to . G5 has better stats all around than Boundman and a small island sized fist with a much longer range is obviously harder to dodge than the Supreme Kong Gun that landed.

He can retreat out of range sure. The point is he can't dodge it consistently if he stays in attack range, even if he got lucky once or twice. Obviously Kaidou doesn't want to retreat and admit inferiority.


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## Inferno Jewls (May 16, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Akainu is Kaido's slave hence is name red dog
> 
> Akainu used to be doffy's slave before becomingmarine


Red Dog puts a spikey collar around his puppy Kaidou and the WG feeds Kaido pedigree when he's hungry

Reactions: Funny 1


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## featherine augustus (May 16, 2022)

Inferno Jewls said:


> Red Dog puts a spikey collar around his puppy Kaidou and the WG feeds Kaido pedigree when he's hungry


Ironic the puppy bosses the weak mutt around


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## featherine augustus (May 16, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Concession accepted. You want to put the burden of proof on me to prove that Kaidou didn't use FS for the attacks that landed on him after he first started using FS. Yet you yourself can't prove
> 1. Kaidou stopped using FS
> 2. Luffy used FS for his attacks that missed.
> 
> ...


First read 1042 again

Second so you accept he can basically dodge lol proving my point. Thanks for agreeing with me

All the extra nonsense you typed are meaningless.


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## Heart Over Blade (May 16, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> First read 1042 again
> 
> Second so you accept he can basically dodge lol proving my point. Thanks for agreeing with me


You're the one who needs to read 1042. Then come back and come up with an actual argument.

No I didn't. I said he can retreat like a coward . BJ's range is as long as Luffy can extend his arm. Staying outside of that range is basically admitting he's scared to get hit and isn't strong enough to overpower it.


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## featherine augustus (May 16, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> You're the one who needs to read 1042. Then come back and come up with an actual argument.
> 
> No I didn't. I said he can retreat like a coward to avoid getting hit. BJ's range is as long as Luffy can extend his arm. Staying out of that range is basically admitting he's not strong enough to fight Luffy while he has his mega fist out.


Lol dodging is cowardly. Even roger can't survive it without dodging. Why you have so low iq?


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## Heart Over Blade (May 16, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Lol dodging is cowardly. Even roger can't survive it without dodging. Why you have so low iq?


No, retreating is cowardly. There's a difference between dodging and retreating.
Kaidou obviously knew that that's why he was willing to dodge Luffy's attacks but didn't want to retreat.

If Kaidou best option is to stay out of range then he'll be retreating constantly, because Luffy will be chasing, and he'll also be extending his other arm to grab Kaidou.

If my IQ lowered it's probably because I'm debating with someone with even lower IQ and stupidity is contagious.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## featherine augustus (May 16, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> No, retreating is cowardly. There's a difference between dodging and retreating.
> Kaidou obviously knew that that's why he didn't retreat.
> 
> If Kaidou best option is to stay out of range then he'll be retreating constantly, because Luffy will be chasing, and he'll also be extending his other arm to grab Kaidou.
> ...


Yeah it seems Oda called you and told you he is retreating not dodging 

You live in fanfiction it seems lol

As expected you answer like 13 year old. Grow up and learn basics of comprehension


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 16, 2022)

Chill guys... just wait until Luffy fights the next major villian aka Blackbeard and defeats him, and then Luffy would be clearly far stronger than current Kaido.


This is a similar situation to Luffy vs Katakuri, people think he hasn't surpassed Kata yet post WCI even after Luffy won, well just wait and eventually Luffy far surpasses him.

It is only a matter of time  , Luffy still has several more power ups to go until he can topple the entire WG and surpass every pirate in history.

Next goal is this


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## Heart Over Blade (May 16, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Yeah it seems Oda called you and told you he is retreating not dodging
> 
> You live in fanfiction it seems lol
> 
> As expected you answer like 13 year old. Grow up and learn basics of comprehension


Constantly having to run away from a chasing opponent to get outside their long attack range is called retreating. No amount of your mental gymnastics will change that. Kaidou has already proven he has nothing against trying to dodge Luffy's attacks, what he wouldn't do is retreat. That's what he was making clear to Luffy when Kaidou said he wouldn't go anywhere.

You're the one throwing immature insults and then complaining when you get one back, just like a 13 year old. Look in the mirror some time.

If I were you I wouldn't knock on anyone's comprehension after basically admitting you have none



featherine augustus said:


> What are you even saying at this point lol. You can prove you can't prove blah blah





featherine augustus said:


> Less that 50% dodge rate? Meaning?


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 16, 2022)

>Luffy beats Kaido.
>Actually Kaido is still stronger bro.


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 16, 2022)

Every time a thread like this comes up, you know that Luffy has already beat this arc's villian and is already ready for the next arc to face stronger challenges.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Ludi (May 16, 2022)

Post wano Luffy will be (at least) marginally stronger


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## Perrin (May 16, 2022)

I believe that is the complex hierarchy that Oda wishes to demonstrate in this shonen manga by having Luffy defeat him, yes.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## KBD (May 16, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> Every time a thread like this comes up, you know that Luffy has already beat this arc's villian and is already ready for the next arc to face stronger challenges.


what do you mean? there can never be a greater challenge

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 16, 2022)

KBD said:


> what do you mean? there can never be a greater challenge


Gotta give credit where credit is due, Kaido is definitely the fight Luffy struggled the most in the whole of One piece so far, and I doubt Luffy would need to powerup 3x in a single arc in the future for any other enemies, the most is prolly one power ups per arc in the future.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Inferno Jewls (May 16, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Ironic the puppy bosses the weak mutt around


Ahh you finally seem to accept that Akainu indeed dogs Kaido,

You see that spike bracelet around Kaidou's wrist? well those are actually Collars made for Kaidou, when it's time to go outside the spike collar around his hands are transferred to his neck and a leash is strapped on too.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Ezekjuninor (May 16, 2022)

I would favour Kaido extreme diff. Main reasons are, lifting the island was confirmed as a nerf which would’ve constantly drained Kaido’s energy, and I doubt Kaido would go down in a single Bajrang gun if he’s close to fresh. So Luffy would have to hurt a fresh Kaido enough to finish him off with Bajrang Gun and I’m not sure if he’s capable of doing that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClannadFan (May 16, 2022)

Yall reread the fight. Looking back, the only thing stopping Luffy from using a Bajrang Gun from the start to end it was Momo moving Onigashima. 

This is literally every "Attack" Luffy landed- Luffy slams Kaido, Luffy goes in Kaido and uses Gomu Ballon, Luffy jump ropes with Kaido, Luffy punches Kaido once, Luffy lands 1 combo, then ends the fight with Bajrang Gun.

A total of 6 "Attacks". And I use that term very loosely since literally half of them were full on gags.

For any fan that isn't heavily pushing an agenda, it's really easy to tell that AT THE VERY LEAST G5 Luffy clearly surpassed Kaido. He face tanked all his best shots, then gave him a jab, a combo and then ended it with a haymaker.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## GreenEggsAHam (May 16, 2022)

How is kaido stronger? Luffy literally beat him while being in worse conditin

This is just cope if you think luffy is weaker lol

Reactions: Like 3 | Optimistic 1


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## featherine augustus (May 16, 2022)

It seems people don't understand the concept of dodging

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 16, 2022)

It is already 2022 and people still don't understand how Oda narrates the story.

The moment Luffy defeats an opponent of the arc, no matter the circumstances, it means that Luffy surpasses that opponent from that point onwards, and he will be facing bigger challenges by the next arc and stronger enemies.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## featherine augustus (May 16, 2022)

Inferno Jewls said:


> Ahh you finally seem to accept that Akainu indeed dogs Kaido,
> 
> You see that spike bracelet around Kaidou's wrist? well those are actually Collars made for Kaidou, when it's time to go outside the spike collar around his hands are transferred to his neck and a leash is strapped on too.


Yes akainu is Kaido's bitch


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## Inferno Jewls (May 16, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Yes akainu is Kaido's bitch


Kaido just whimpered after Sakazuki spanked him


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## featherine augustus (May 16, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> It is already 2022 and people still don't understand how Oda narrates the story.
> 
> The moment Luffy defeats an opponent of the arc, no matter the circumstances, it means that Luffy surpasses that opponent from that point onwards, and he will be facing bigger challenges by the next arc and stronger enemies.


Luffy can show moves by which he can show Luffy is more powerful

But for now that isn't case. Bajrung gun can be dodged


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## featherine augustus (May 16, 2022)

Inferno Jewls said:


> Kaido just whimpered after Sakazuki spanked him


Akainu is Kaido's slave. He orders gorosei to spank him lol

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 16, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Luffy can show moves by which he can show Luffy is more powerful
> 
> But for now that isn't case. Bajrung gun can be dodged


And Kaido doesn't dodge it *in character* so he still clashes and loses to it.
Their personality is also a huge factor.

In fact Kaido couldn't break Luffy's grip from his other arm, so dodging it was a null statement. In fact the whole reason Luffy was delaying the punch was for Momo to move Onigashima out of the way, hence giving Kaido the chance to charge up and use his own strongest attack.

His only option was to counter it with Blaze Bagua and loses in the clash.


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## featherine augustus (May 16, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> And Kaido doesn't dodge it *in character* so he still clashes and loses to it.
> Their personality is also a huge factor.
> 
> In fact Kaido couldn't break Luffy's grip from his other arm, so dodging it was a null statement.
> ...


Yeah but when threat is real he has to

It was arrogance hence he clashed.

Most top tiers will try dodging it also


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 16, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Yeah but when threat is real he has to
> 
> It was arrogance hence he clashed.
> 
> Most top tiers will try dodging it also


Then that's part of his character and influences the outcome of the fight regardless.

To have a chance of countering the attack you need to be able to do 3 things
1) Break Luffy's rubberification grip that has greater strength than Dragon and Hybrid Kaido
2) The ability to fly at high speeds to avoid an Island sized fist crashing on you, you literally need to be able to cross the distance of an island in seconds.
3) Overpower this attack with sheer power.

This is still assuming that Luffy will hold out on the punch where he is waiting for Momo to move away Onigashima btw.

So far no other top tier has the capability of doing the aforementioned:

Kizaru - has the speed to escape the island in seconds, but can't break Luffy's grip on him. Forced into option 3.
Akainu - can use magma to force Luffy to let go of his grip, but lacks the speed to cross the island distance in seconds. Forced into option 3
Aokiji - same scenario with Akainu but with ice instead of magma to force Luffy to let go. Forced into option 3.
Fujitora - can't do anything but try option 3, and most likely loses.
Mihawk and Shanks - can force Luffy to let go of his grip with sword attacks, but doesn't have the flight or travel speed for option 2. Forced into option 3.
Big Mom - also forced into option 3.

The only unknown is Blackbeard because we have no idea what he has up his sleeve yet, and just might be able to use option 3 to counter Luffy instead.

Kaido is the only one who can do both 1 and 2 at the same time, but he needs to use Great Dragon Torch to do that and by then he would end up having to clash with Luffy anyways.


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## Duhul10 (May 16, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> Every time a thread like this comes up, you know that Luffy has already beat this arc's villian and is already ready for the next arc to face stronger challenges.


There are no stronger challenges currently. So if you believe Luffy is stronger than Kaido, then Luffy is the strongest alive. I believe he needs more time with G5, cause as of now, if both fresh, no interventions, no passive skills used that eat your stamina and so on, Luffy can't maintain G5 long enough to overpower Kaido, not to mention that if Kaido actually decides to dodge big attacks, it gets even trickier.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sablés (May 16, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> The moment Luffy defeats an opponent of the arc, no matter the circumstances, it means that Luffy surpasses that opponent from that point onwards,


Luffy was stronger than Enel?

I mean, this is awful logic for quite a few reasons, but the above sticks out.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 16, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Luffy was stronger than Enel?


Sure why not? Especially given his DF matchup advantage and Enel's ego weakness.


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## Sablés (May 16, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> Sure why not? Especially given his DF matchup advantage.


Then that's not being stronger. That's having a natural advantage by Enel not being able to harm him at all. That's not "especially" either, that's the entire caveat that saved Luffy from getting one or two-shotted by the guy.

Is it written _anywhere _that Luffy surpasses his enemies after beating them? Most of these people he never met or fought again. And none of them are Kaido, who Oda went out of his way to segregate from all of Luffy's previous enemies by saying a punch wouldn't make a  satisfactory defeat.

Reactions: Like 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (May 16, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Then that's not being stronger. That's having a natural advantage by Enel not being able to harm him at all. That's not "especially" either, that's the entire caveat that saved Luffy from getting one or two-shotted by the guy.
> 
> Is it written _anywhere _that Luffy surpasses his enemies after beating them? Most of these people he never met or fought again. And none of them are Kaido, who Oda went out of his way to segregate from all of Luffy's previous enemies by saying a punch wouldn't make a  satisfactory defeat.


He beat kaido , in worse condition, yes he’s stronger why is it so hard to accept

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 16, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Then that's not being stronger. That's having a natural advantage by Enel not being able to harm him at all. That's not "especially" either, that's the entire caveat that saved Luffy from getting one or two-shotted by the guy.
> 
> Is it written _anywhere _that Luffy surpasses his enemies after beating them? Most of these people he never met or fought again. And none of them are Kaido, who Oda went out of his way to segregate from all of Luffy's previous enemies by saying a punch wouldn't make a  satisfactory defeat.






It is implied that after their fight Luffy will be surpassing him.

And that Kaido believes that Joyboy will be the one to beat/surpass him aka Luffy.


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## Duhul10 (May 16, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> He beat kaido , in worse condition, yes he’s stronger why is it so hard to accept


He wasn't in worse condition, the guy had like 4 breaks. His Awakening gave him so much energy that as he said "he felt he could do anything". 
Not to mention Kaido only lost the clash because he wanted to take on the attack in the first place, when he could've avoided it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 16, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> There are no stronger challenges currently. So if you believe Luffy is stronger than Kaido, then Luffy is the strongest alive. I believe he needs more time with G5, cause as of now, if both fresh, no interventions, no passive skills used that eat your stamina and so on, Luffy can't maintain G5 long enough to overpower Kaido, not to mention that if Kaido actually decides to dodge big attacks, it gets even trickier.


I do think that Luffy will inherit the World's Strongest from Kaido after defeating him in Wano, and the only one capable of surpassing him next time would be Blackbeard.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Duhul10 (May 16, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> It is implied that after their fight Luffy will be surpassing him.
> 
> And that Kaido believes that Joyboy will be the one to beat him aka Luffy.


And he will, at one point.
At the point where if both fresh and equal conditions, Luffy will be able to keep G5 long enough to put down a Kaido whom we know could tank an immense output of damage, more than immense. Even with G5, Luffy needed the strongest attack he could produce to overpower Kaido, so only that could give him an advantage. Good Luck winning with that against a fresh Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sablés (May 16, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> It is implied that after their fight Luffy will be surpassing him.


Luffy saying he's going to surpass Kaido isn't fact, and it's not even saying he'll surpass him right now. Why discuss "implications" when I asked you for tangible evidence that Luffy gets stronger than his enemies IMMEDIATELY after beating them?


Ebitan said:


> And that Kaido believes that Joyboy will be the one to beat/*surpass *him aka Luffy.


No. Kaido didn't say this. Leave your inference out of it. He said JB would defeat him, which Luffy did. Not that this had to be accomplished by way of objective superiority, and it _wasn't. _

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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 16, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Luffy saying he's going to surpass Kaido isn't fact, and it's not even saying he'll surpass him right now. Why discuss "implications"* when I asked you for tangible evidence that Luffy gets stronger than his enemies IMMEDIATELY after beating them?*
> 
> No. Kaido didn't say this. Leave your inference out of it. He said JB would defeat him, which Luffy did. Not that this had to be accomplished by way of objective superiority, and it _wasn't. _


The tangible evidence of Luffy becoming stronger than his current enemies is by beating a stronger enemy in the following arc, especially seen in Post Time skip where the hierarchy in power is far more established such as the progression of

regular YC level Doffy -> YC1 level kata -> Yonko level Kaido.

And guess who is he going to defeat next? Someone even stronger than Kaido. As for whether it is immediately or not the answer is still yes because Luffy needs to surpass a Yonko in order to eventually reach the stage of Pirate King. If Luffy still hasn't surpassed Kaido by this arc then he has no business progressing to the next level aka the battle for Pirate King.

Kaido said Joyboy would be the one to beat him, and with Kaido's arrogance and pride, you think he will admit that he will be defeated by someone who he thinks hasn't truly surpassed him? This is Kaido we are talking about, someone who respects strength greatly, someone who believes in the strong dominating the weak, someone who finds equality in war, someone who is an Emperor.

Think about it.


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## Sablés (May 16, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> The tangible evidence of Luffy becoming stronger than his current enemies is by beating a stronger enemy in the following arc


Which is, again, untrue. Enel was stronger than a few of Luffy's following enemies. You're trying to assert a pattern you can't prove exists, and certainly can't prove exists for Kaido, who is touted as the strongest. Not even getting into whatever backdraws may come with G5.  

I'm also not interested if Luffy surpasses Kaido by next arc. I'm talking about _right now._



Ebitan said:


> Kaido said Joyboy would be the one to beat him, and with Kaido's arrogance and pride, you think he will admit that he will be defeated by someone who he thinks hasn't truly surpassed him?


Yes, he's a pirate. He wanted a war and he lost the war on his own terms. He has no right to complain.
On the reverse side of the coin, Kaido never counted his victories over Luffy and Oden as illegitimate. They were just soured.

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## Perrin (May 16, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Which is, again, untrue. Enel was stronger than a few of Luffy's following enemies.


Which is probably why he drew attention to time skip.

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## Ushiromiya Battler (May 16, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Which is, again, untrue. Enel was stronger than a few of Luffy's following enemies. You're trying to assert a pattern you can't prove exists, and certainly can't prove exists for Kaido, who is touted as the strongest. Not even getting into whatever backdraws may come with G5.


Key : Post Time skip. The pattern so far has not been broken in Post Timeskip, we need to keep up with the times and and stop dwelling in pretimeskip patterns.

Right now yes, like I said, if Luffy cannot surpass the level of Kaido right now, he does not qualify for the next level aka becoming pirate king.




Sablés said:


> Yes, he's a pirate. He wanted a war and he lost the war on his own terms. He has no right to complain.
> On the reverse side of the coin, Kaido never counted his victories over Luffy and Oden as illegitimate. They were just soured.


Kaido respects strength and his strong ego will only allow someone stronger than him to beat him, and that's exactly what came true.


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## Tsukuyomi (May 16, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> How is kaido stronger? Luffy literally beat him while being in worse conditin
> 
> This is just cope if you think luffy is weaker lol





ClannadFan said:


> Yall reread the fight. Looking back, the only thing stopping Luffy from using a Bajrang Gun from the start to end it was Momo moving Onigashima.
> 
> This is literally every "Attack" Luffy landed- Luffy slams Kaido, Luffy goes in Kaido and uses Gomu Ballon, Luffy jump ropes with Kaido, Luffy punches Kaido once, Luffy lands 1 combo, then ends the fight with Bajrang Gun.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Sablés (May 16, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Which is probably why he drew attention to time skip.





Ebitan said:


> Key : Post Time skip. The pattern so far has not been broken in Post Timeskip, we need to keep up with the times and and stop dwelling in pretimeskip patterns.


Right, so the argument is cherry picking from a laughably small sample size instead of the overall pool of battles. Of which you have only two meaningful antagonists: Katakuri and Doflamingo. Doflamingo who you could argue was weaker than Luffy from the beginning, and Katakuri, who wasn't necessarily weaker than Luffy at all until mid-Wano. And you're running to the moon with this for Kaido, who is several steps above the other two and singled out from all other antagonists by Oda? Wow.


Ebitan said:


> Right now yes, like I said, if Luffy cannot surpass the level of Kaido right now, he does not qualify for the next level aka becoming pirate king.


Good thing he's not the pirate king "right now". So why is this an issue?



Ebitan said:


> Kaido respects strength and his strong ego will only allow someone stronger than him to beat him, and that's exactly what came true.


Kaido respects strength and his strong ego shouldn't allow him to accept a victory won cheaply. And yet he does.
He's not Katakuri which is why winners need no excuses.

Reactions: Winner 1


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