# Nagato,BM Naruto,BM Minato,MS Obito vs Hashirama and EMS Madara



## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 14, 2015)

Location: Valley of the end

Starting distance: 400 meters

Mind Set: cool

Intel: Full intel for both sides

Restrictions: Madara does not have Kurama, no one is edo

Who wins?


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## Trojan (Mar 14, 2015)

Obito solos Madara or Hashirama
BM Minato solo the other one. 

Naruto and Nagato are not needed...


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Obito solos Madara or Hashirama
> BM Minato solo the other one.
> 
> Naruto and Nagato are not needed...



Can't Hashirama cancel out one of the BM users with ease though?
AKA woodDragon.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Obito solos Madara or Hashirama
> BM Minato solo the other one.
> 
> Naruto and Nagato are not needed...



Obito cant solo Madara, or Hashirama. He is simply not fast enough to solo either of them. 

BM Naruto cant solo. He gets easily beaten.

But i feel this is too much for both Hashirama and Madara to handle.



> Can't Hashirama cancel out one of the BM users with ease though?



Yes, he can. But there are 3 another top tiers.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 14, 2015)

What does team nagato have to counter hashiramas gates move?


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## Trojan (Mar 14, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Can't Hashirama cancel out one of the BM users with ease though?
> AKA woodDragon.



Naruto destroyed them with his pure speed, and SM narudo destroyed 2 of them with 1 FRS, so, no he can't.

and it's


> Intel: Full intel for both sides


So, it's not like the first time when Naruto has never seen it before, and did not know about its abilities....


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2015)

> Naruto destroyed them with his pure speed, and SM narudo destroyed 2 of them with 1 FRS, so, no he can't.



Very bad example. Nice trolling attempt, Hussain.

First, you have to prove FRS destroyed Edo Hashirama.

Second, you have to prove that destroying immobilised Edo Madara proves anything here. He was immobilised, his Preta Path was countered by Wood Dragon and he was an Edo, with physical stats inferior to his alive EMS vertion. 

Naruto never, ever destroyed either Hashirama, or Madara with speed. BM Naruto is simply not fast enough to do something like that.



> What does team nagato have to counter hashiramas gates move?



He suppressed Edo Madara, Juubi and Juubito by those Gates... Hm...


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## Joakim3 (Mar 14, 2015)

Chakra sharing not restricted? 

So no we have Madara & Hashirama vs. BM Naruto, BM Minato ontop of an *RM powered Nagato & Obito*, lol this is funny

Naruto & Minato simply nuke EMS Madara off the planet while team uber buff RM Nagato & RM Obito rape stomp Hashirama via _Kamui_ trolling + (insert lethal 1 shot rinnegan technique) combos in truly abhorrent fashion

Team Naruto jail stomps....


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## Raiken (Mar 14, 2015)

Minato is not an Edo, so is partially crippled because of Kurama inside him and can't compete in the fight.


:^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^)


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## Ghost (Mar 14, 2015)

Duo gets stomped.


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## Itachі (Mar 14, 2015)

Hashirama and Madara lose. BM Minato and BM Naruto are powerhouses. They heal, they have extremely powerful Jutsu and they're fast. Nagato is versatile in the Ninjutsu department and puts enough pressure on the two already, Obito adds to the pressure by trying to ghost them.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 14, 2015)

Minato & Obito is a difficult combination to deal with. He can phase through the opponents attacks / teleport to them and Minato can simply warp to him once he solidifies his body, attacking either opponent at their weak points. He can tag the other guys and warp them to Obito as well.

Obito is difference here, he allows them to get behind Madara & Hashirama's constructs and avoid a nuke battle, and he also allows them to escape Hashirama's Wood Constraints at all times. Obito can also warp above Hashirama's Statue and Wood Human and allow their entire team to target Hashirama from close quarters through FTG, not to mention as soon as Obito gets close to Buddha or PS Minato can warp there and tag either construct, which allows him to literally teleport it away from Hashirama / Madara if not teleport them both directly to Naruto & the others, as the Wood & PS are Hashirama / Madara's chakras, and he needs to only make contact with their chakras to warp them as he pleases.

In other words, Hashirama & Madara are separated from Buddha & PS back to the other teammates who then kill both of them. 

I'd argue BM Minato & MS Obito taking them out without the others.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2015)

> Minato & Obito is a difficult combination to deal with. He can phase through the opponents attacks / teleport to them and Minato can simply warp to him once he solidifies his body, attacking either opponent at their weak points. He can tag the other guys and warp them to Obito as well.



RT Madara, who was just as fast as his EMS prime vertion, just without EMS, could easily dodge Edo Tobirama's blind side speedblitz thanks to Hashirama's Sage Mode. Edo Tobirama put a FTG mark on Juubito, tagged him with a clone and tagged him few more times later. Tobirama demonstrated faster reflexes and striking speed than KCM Minato. 

And that is only one feat. Both Hashirama and EMS Madara are too fast for only Obito and Minato.

But there are some other guys here. Too much people.

But... There are Hashirama's Gates.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 14, 2015)

> RT Madara, who was just as fast as his EMS prime vertion, just without EMS, could easily dodge Edo Tobirama's blind side speedblitz thanks to Hashirama's Sage Mode. Edo Tobirama put a FTG mark on Juubito, tagged him with a clone and tagged him few more times later. Tobirama demonstrated faster reflexes and striking speed than KCM Minato.


He also had a Rinnegan, but this is BM Minato, not KCM Minato.



> And that is only one feat. Both Hashirama and EMS Madara are too fast for only Obito and Minato.


They're definitely not too fast for BM Minato, especially if Minato manages to tag their chakras with FTG through Obito. He would blitz and crush both of them if he had them tagged/their chakras tagged at any point, his construct is way too big for either of them to avoid if he warps directly to them. If it's everyone, he doesn't really need to warp at them, he can set up a warp barrier, and have everyone nuke into it (Asura Head Laser, COFRS, Senjutsu Super Bijuudama) and it will literally appear on either of them if their constructs/they are tagged, this could mean on top of the Buddha Statue where Hashirama still is or inside of Madara's PS if he's still in there, and they're wiped off the map. 

Obito's speed is meaningless, he serves only as an intangible/warping marker for Minato, and a means by which to separate Hashirama/Madara from their mechas/a way by which to tag their chakras. 



> But... There are Hashirama's Gates.


Which Minato can warp his allies out of if he tags Obito, who can teleport away and then he warps everyone to Obito, escaping the gates' restraints. Either that, or Minato/Naruto already has a bunshin/marker far off to warp everyone to if they're caught by the gates.

Hashirama also doesn't start in SM, so the gates won't be coming down immediately.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2015)

> He also had a Rinnegan, but this is BM Minato, not KCM Minato.
> 
> RT Madara also beat Tobirama in CQC off panel.



1. Prove that his Rinnegan gives him perception abilities just as EMS.
2. Edo Tobirama has shown speed comparable to that of BM Minato and higher than that of KCM Minato. And RT Madara, with Hashirama's Sage Mode, dodged his blitz effortlessly.

It happened off panel, but thats not what i am talking about - RT Madara dodged his striking speed. Thats the thing i am talking about. 

And there are lots of other feats that proves BM Minato and Obito are not enough to deal with Hashirama and Madara. Hashirama, especially in his SM, is a speedster with huge AoE jutsu's and Wood Dragon, which can catch BM Minato's Kurama Avatar easily. 

EMS Madara beats Obito in CQC while  SM Hashirama deals with BM Minato.

But that scenario is possible only if Obito has no Tailed Beasts in his Gedo Mazo.



> They're definitely not too fast for BM Minato, especially if Minato manages to tag their chakras with FTG through Obito. He would blitz and crush both of them if he had them tagged at any point.
> 
> Obito's speed is meaningless, he serves only as an intangible/warping marker for Minato, and a means by which to separate Hashirama/Madara from their mechas.



Both of them can deal lots of troubles to BM Minato with their speed. They are speedsters in a level comparable to that of BM Minato.

The same is with Obito, who cant touch either of them.

They dont need their mechas. As soon as Minato creates Kurama Avatar, it gets suppressed by Wood Dragon, which suppress BM Minato after he shuts down his Kurama Avatar. EMS Madara is fast enough to deal with Obito in CQC without being touched, just like Gai did. 



> Which Minato can warp his allies out of if he tags Obito, who can teleport away and then he warps everyone to Obito, escaping the gates' restraints.



And if he doesnt? 

The rain of those gates can deal lots of trouble to the team, probably.


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## ARGUS (Mar 15, 2015)

team Father son wins this high diff, 

and Lol at BM Minato and MS obito being able to take out the duo all by themselves, when MS Obito is literally a fodder compared to either of them, and when Hashirama alone is above the likes of BM minato,


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## sabre320 (Mar 16, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> team Father son wins this high diff,
> 
> and Lol at BM Minato and MS obito being able to take out the duo all by themselves, when MS Obito is literally a fodder compared to either of them, and when Hashirama alone is above the likes of BM minato,



team father son win this add nagato and obito and it becomes mid diff kcm cloak to nagato and chou cst gedo mazo ect will be a massive factor especially when the team cn utilize ftg swap and ftg kamui combo to position nagato to absorb madaras ps with no fear of counterattack through obitos support intangibility not to mention ms obito is a very good counter to hashirama as hashiramas constructs are not like a chakra avtar and dosent protect and surround him obito can teleport right next to hashirama and the team can ftg to obito and engage hashirama instantly or land their nukes right on top of hashirama


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## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2015)

obito in this life time or any non juubi incaration cant even attempt to be an issue to hashirama. 

the duo loose but thats mostly due to BM minato who i believe shits on madara hard and BM naruto who can do the same. 

now obito and nagato have less fire power and someone liek nagato could be victimized fairly quickly

the duo loose with alot of difficulty. i think people forget that due to budda horrendous size it makes it very hard to actually hit hashirama


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 16, 2015)

> 1. Prove that his Rinnegan gives him perception abilities just as EMS.


Rinnegan is the most powerful ocular Donjutsu in the manga, it senses chakra giving it better pre-cog than EMS. 



> 2. Edo Tobirama has shown speed comparable to that of BM Minato and higher than that of KCM Minato. And RT Madara, with Hashirama's Sage Mode, dodged his blitz effortlessly.


FTG + BM shunshin grants Minato faster speed capabilities. 

As far as effortlessly avoided is concerned, he avoided it by less than a meter. 



> And there are lots of other feats that proves BM Minato and Obito are not enough to deal with Hashirama and Madara. Hashirama, especially in his SM, is a speedster with huge AoE jutsu's and Wood Dragon, which can catch BM Minato's Kurama Avatar easily.


Wouldn't matter, Minato would warp out of the attacks with the aid of Obito. 



> EMS Madara beats Obito in CQC while  SM Hashirama deals with BM Minato.


EMS Madara has no chance of beating Obito in CQC. 

SM Hashirama can't do anything to Minato who is warping through Obito who cannot be touched. 



> Both of them can deal lots of troubles to BM Minato with their speed. They are speedsters in a level comparable to that of BM Minato.


No they're not, you trout around the dome claiming Hashirama is a speedster based on his relatively weak feats of avoiding a bijuudama long enough to summon gates, which prove he could not avoid it with his speed. Then you claim he's fast because he took on Madara in CQC, who also has relatively weak speed feats that don't even cap at V2 Ei. 



> The same is with Obito, who cant touch either of them.


He has no need to, BM Minato warps to him and crushes either of them. 



> They dont need their mechas. As soon as Minato creates Kurama Avatar, it gets suppressed by Wood Dragon, which suppress BM Minato after he shuts down his Kurama Avatar. EMS Madara is fast enough to deal with Obito in CQC without being touched, just like Gai did.


Minato warps around the Wood Dragon with a bunshin, touches it, then warps directly to Hashirama's position and slams a Rasengan in the crown of his head. 



ARGUS said:


> team Father son wins this high diff,
> 
> and Lol at BM Minato and MS obito being able to take out the duo all by themselves, when MS Obito is literally a fodder compared to either of them, and when Hashirama alone is above the likes of BM minato,


You're comparing these ninja to them individually and ignoring the fact that their S/T techniques combined create a formidable team worthy of defeating almost anyone.

Power scale logic doesn't work against the hax of Kamui and FTG, Obito is an intangible walking marker for Minato, and he casually makes contact with their chakra-infused techniques, and once they're tagged/phyiscally touched by Obito BM Minato warps them directly to his position and slams a Bijuu Rasengan in their faces.


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## Icegaze (Mar 18, 2015)

why cant EMS madara beat obito in cqc?? base gai was doing just fine
also genjutsu lol GG. unless somehow obito got the stronger eyes which would make me laugh 

madara beats obito quite simply kamui or not

minato cant teleport to obito while obito is intangbile or minato would end up in kamui land

the hax of kamui is very simply trolled with kagebunshin and mokuton bunshin. obito foolishly always tries to grab his opponent before wrapping them. hashirama mokuton bunshin simply can be rigged, so protrude obito body with mokuton spikes on contact. kinda like how crazy obito did against the fodder missing nin 

madara does the same with his clones. obito tries to wrap one and gets caught in genjutsu. 

minato is harder to deal with clearly. however hashirama is far superior by alot. while i believe BM naruto can beat madara. 

either team god loose to the rift rafts but it would be far from an easy match


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## sabre320 (Mar 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> why cant EMS madara beat obito in cqc?? base gai was doing just fine
> also genjutsu lol GG. unless somehow obito got the stronger eyes which would make me laugh
> 
> madara beats obito quite simply kamui or not
> ...



Your downplay of obito is quite extreme obito kamui suction was so fast it needed minatos ftg to escape even then he was pressured madara and hashirama have no speed remotely close to minatos ftg activation speed...

ems madara is not dealing with him in cqc he engages him in taijutsu and on contact gets sucked in madara gai was not holding his own at all he used his nunchucks to defend himself and obito grabbed that shit with his hand casually and said dont underestimate the sharingan and was sucking it in ...while getting pressured by bm naruto kakashi ect..not to mention gai is more skilled in taijutsu then madara..madara is never landing a hit on obito not once even juubidara couldnt tag obito ..while obito can kamui behind madara in a spacetime sneak attack afterall you did say sensing cant sense blindside attacks right?

 ems madara never used kagebunshins in battles not even once not his fighting style either..and genjutsu gg dude wtf...obito is a pure blood uchiha experienced in the mankegyo and has hashiramas chakra ....hebi sasuke broke tsukyomi just because madara has ems does not mean he can genjutsu gg he has no genjutsu approaching tsukyomi even..

hashiramas mokubunshins are in base and easily distinguishable from sm hashirama ..

not to mention hashiramas moku bunshins were fodder and were one shotted by edo madara sitting down in v1 sussano..

hashirama is not far above bm minato they are all on a similar tier bsm naruto sm hashirama and bm minato..


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## Icegaze (Mar 18, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Your downplay of obito is quite extreme obito kamui suction was so fast it needed minatos ftg to escape even then he was pressured madara and hashirama have no speed remotely close to minatos ftg activation speed...



obito has the nasty habit of first grabbing his oppoennt before using kamui. Thats how base gai was able to prevent it. these 2 can easily do the same



> ems madara is not dealing with him in cqc he engages him in taijutsu and on contact gets sucked in madara gai was not holding his own at all he used his nunchucks to defend himself and obito grabbed that shit with his hand casually and said dont underestimate the sharingan and was sucking it in ...while getting pressured by bm naruto kakashi ect..not to mention gai is more skilled in taijutsu then madara..madara is never landing a hit on obito not once even juubidara couldnt tag obito ..while obito can kamui behind madara in a spacetime sneak attack afterall you did say sensing cant sense blindside attacks right?



madara genjutsu GG. clones prevent kamui casually. The manga therefore the author puts madara on an entirely different league from obito. so he is. I mean when ET madara with hashirama sage mode thought he could stop juubito. i dont see how obito is even supposed to be an issue for EMS madara. obito can use all the suction and phasing he wants. when he solidifies he gets killed. because he always tries to grab the opponent first. which has to do with his physical speed which is laughable at best and his taijutsu skill which is worse. he coudlnt even keep up with kakashi. how he going to be outdoing these gods?



> ems madara never used kagebunshins in battles not even once not his fighting style either..and genjutsu gg dude wtf...obito is a pure blood uchiha experienced in the mankegyo and has hashiramas chakra ....hebi sasuke broke tsukyomi just because madara has ems does not mean he can genjutsu gg he has no genjutsu approaching tsukyomi even..



its a jutsu madara knows though. its not his fighting style when fighting hashirama. thats splits his chakra and hashirama is a power based fighter. obito isnt. . itachi wasnt serious against sasuke. Ems madara genjtusu>>>>>>>obitos. thats painfully obvious. he has madara chakra good for obito. it still doesnt put his chakra level or quality in the same boat with madara




> hashiramas mokubunshins are in base and easily distinguishable from sm hashirama ..



And you think hashirama cant make clones with SM?? considering naruto could i dont see why not. 



> not to mention hashiramas moku bunshins were fodder and were one shotted by edo madara sitting down in v1 sussano..



fodder to ET madara isnt the same as fodder to everyone. madara clones would be fodder to hashirama as well. however u can see the gokage couldnt do shit to them 



> hashirama is not far above bm minato they are all on a similar tier bsm naruto sm hashirama and bm minato..



am glad u think so i do not simply put. Minato turns to paste in front of hashirama. for all the speed and hype u give these people if all it took to be the strongest was speed. then minato would be the god of shinobi so would obito. they would be legend however they arent the stuff on legend.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 18, 2015)

Minato never needed FTG to avoid Young Obito's Kamui Suction, especially when we take into consideration that Obito managed to grip Minato's hand, leaving him vulnerable due to Minato's lack of knowledge on Obito's S/T.

 I don't see Minato dodging War Arc Obito's Kamui Suction without FTG, however, Hashirama and Madara are both way above Minato's speed, so Hashirama and Madara, especially with Sage Sensing and Precognition should be able to dodge Obito's Kamui relatively easily.


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## Icegaze (Mar 19, 2015)

@NarutoX28 
what do u mean he never needed FTG to avoid obito kamui thats BS

also u would have to prove obito Kamui got faster. which really was never implied


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @NarutoX28
> what do u mean he never needed FTG to avoid obito kamui thats BS
> 
> also u would have to prove obito Kamui got faster. which really was never implied



 Really? Why is that BS? Obito literally ran right through Minato instead of absorbing him. He also relied on immobilizing him with his chains indicating that Obito could never absorb him considering Minato never attempted to use FTG at that instant. 

 Furthermore, as I stated before, Minato needed FTG to dodge Obito's Kamui due to Obito grabbing his hand. The only reason Obito managed to do that was because Minato lacked knowledge on Kamui at the time.

 Obito's reactions got better (lucky for me, he wasn't in his prime ) and we've witnessed how as Kakashi's proficiency improved, so did his Kamui activation time as shown against Deidara, so it's really not a stretch to say that Obito's Kamui got better as he gained more experience in terms of Kamui activation time.

 Not only that, Adult Obito has far superior Kamui feats, managing to warp and rescue Sasuke before Onoki's Jinton crushed him almost instantaneously. Young Obito has no feats of being able to do something like that.


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## sabre320 (Mar 20, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Really? Why is that BS? Obito literally ran right through Minato instead of absorbing him. He also relied on immobilizing him with his chains indicating that Obito could never absorb him considering Minato never attempted to use FTG at that instant.
> 
> Furthermore, as I stated before, Minato needed FTG to dodge Obito's Kamui due to Obito grabbing his hand. The only reason Obito managed to do that was because Minato lacked knowledge on Kamui at the time.
> 
> ...



not this shit again...and then u said hashirama and madara are far faster then minato


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## Rocky (Mar 20, 2015)

Minato is faster than Tobirama, and both are faster than Hashirama and Madara.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 20, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> not this shit again...and then u said hashirama and madara are far faster then minato



 I shit you not sir:


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## Veracity (Mar 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato is faster than Tobirama, and both are faster than Hashirama and Madara.



Minato's FTG is " better"( not faster;  and making an argument that Kishis " better " actually meant " faster " is fruitless considering how truly different the words are and how easily it would have been to say " faster " if that's really what he meant) than Tobiramas not his speed.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 20, 2015)

Minato and Tobirama's FTG surpasses Hashirama and Madara's speed only due to the fact that no one can match instantaneous teleportation. Minato and Tobirama's Shunshin however, doesn't match Hashirama and Madara's speed.


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## Rocky (Mar 20, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Minato's FTG is " better"( not faster;  and making an argument that Kishis " better " actually meant " faster " is fruitless considering how truly different the words are and how easily it would have been to say " faster " if that's really what he meant) than Tobiramas not his speed.



I know, and his flicker is faster too.

Tobirama's "your Shunshin is superior" comment came after Minato arrived at the battlefield first and moved the Bijudama to the ocean. Since Tobirama is also _capable of moving the those giant spheres,_ we know that he _wasn't_ admitting inferiority in the ability to teleport away techniques of such scale.

The only thing Tobirama could have been referring to is the time it took to make it there, which was done via Shunshin, not Flying Thunder God's instantaneous teleportation. That's more in line with the Third's complement anyway, which was regarding speed.



NarutoX28 said:


> Minato and Tobirama's FTG surpasses Hashirama and Madara's speed only due to the fact that no one can match instantaneous teleportation. Minato and Tobirama's Shunshin however, doesn't match Hashirama and Madara's speed.



I don't really know or care how Minato & Tobirama stack up in Shunshin to Hashirama & Madara. It's impossible to compare due to a lack of material.

It's irrelevant when the former two have access to Hiraishin, which makes them _far_ faster.


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## Icegaze (Mar 21, 2015)

minato and tobirama are the fastest of their time
tobirama was in the same time as hashirama and madara and he is faster than them
regardless of the reason. minato and tobirama being faster means they will always get from point A to point B 
before hashirama and madara 

as for minato and tobirama. minato has better shunshin, better reflexes and is a kunai spammer, he also improved hirashin by creating the space time barrier


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## ARGUS (Mar 21, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Rinnegan is the most powerful ocular Donjutsu in the manga, it senses chakra giving it better pre-cog than EMS.



however rinnegan has shown no precog feats, 

but after looking at the reactions differences between MS obito who got tagged by the likes of Konan, and Fuu/Torune, compared to Rinnegan Obito who KCM naruto struggled  against, 
im inclined to say that rinnegan can possibly be superior in that department 



> You're comparing these ninja to them individually and ignoring the fact that their S/T techniques combined create a formidable team worthy of defeating almost anyone.


Minato gets defeated by Hashirama, whilst madara stays with him to assist in combatting any of obitos moves, 



> Power scale logic doesn't work against the hax of Kamui and FTG, Obito is an intangible walking marker for Minato, and he casually makes contact with their chakra-infused techniques, and once they're tagged/phyiscally touched by Obito BM Minato warps them directly to his position and slams a Bijuu Rasengan in their faces.



touching hashiramas construct by obito, doesnt equate to minato teleporting directly to hashirama, to land his attack, 



Likes boss said:


> Minato's FTG is " better"( not faster;  and making an argument that Kishis " better " actually meant " faster " is fruitless considering how truly different the words are and how easily it would have been to say " faster " if that's really what he meant) than Tobiramas not his speed.



Minatos shunshin is superior to tobiramas as stated  by tobirama himself, 
FTG itselff for both is instant, however that still doesnt change the fact that Minatos FTG usage, is more advanced and versatile than tobiramas,


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## Veracity (Mar 22, 2015)

@rocky

I literally forgot which thread I had quoted you you in lol.

It's pretty funny actually that we had this exact argument awhile ago and you argued that Tobirama didn't have an ST barrier.. And after while I actually agreed with you. Facts are, tobirama has never been stated to or shown to have an ST barrier, and that's really the only way his FTG could be any different than Minato's other then the fact that Minato has prepped Kunai. Tobirama as an Edo, could merely have just touched the juubidama and warped it away alongside himself. And Ya know what? The moment Tobirama arrived he saw prepped kunai and witnessed Minato warp a Juubidama to the sea, so I'm more inclined to believe that's the reason he complimented Minato.

I also mostly disregard Minato's Shunshin getting him there any faster seeing as he most likely just wanted to get to the battlefield first. You have to remember that Hashirama, Hirzuen and Tobirama all arrived at the same time but posses tremendously different shunshin speeds.


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## Veracity (Mar 22, 2015)

@argus
 

Except Tobirama never stated that. He said his teleportation was BETTTTTER. Not even faster which pushes the notion that he was speaking about FTG on top of the fact that he outright said teleportation.

So he didn't say your FTG is faster nooo. But he said it's better, which is true considering Minato is more versatile when it comes to FTG.


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## ARGUS (Mar 22, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> @argus
> 
> 
> Except Tobirama never stated that. He said his teleportation was BETTTTTER. Not even faster which pushes the notion that he was speaking about FTG on top of the fact that he outright said teleportation.


reading my post wouldve helped alot 

Shunshin is basically fast foot speeed tthat lets one execute his top movement speed in a single burst, 
Tobirama himself stated that minatos shunshin is better than his, and its further assisted on the fact that minato appeared on the battlefield before him to teleport the juubi dama away and set markings across, 

Teleportation itself is instant, and if you read my post i myself stated that you cant have slower or faster FTG, only its execution,  



> So he didn't say your FTG is faster nooo. But he said it's better, which is true considering Minato is more versatile when it comes to FTG.


Shunshin =/= FTG, 
tobirama stated that minatos shunshin is better, so ill take his word over any one else that claims otherwise


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## Veracity (Mar 22, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> reading my post wouldve helped alot
> 
> Shunshin is basically fast foot speeed tthat lets one execute his top movement speed in a single burst,
> Tobirama himself stated that minatos shunshin is better than his, and its further assisted on the fact that minato appeared on the battlefield before him to teleport the juubi dama away and set markings across,
> ...



Or maybe I did read your post and you have no idea what you are talking about ? Maybe that's it ?

What you " think " Tobirama said isn't what he actually said. Viz translation has Tobirama saying: " your teleportation is better than mine ." He didn't say faster at all, that's something misinterpreted into the websites. And better doesn't necessity connote to faster like Ya know faster does... Better would apply to FTG more than it would apply to shunshin as that would clearly be faster . 

Don't know why you are trying to tell me of all people what Shunshin is lmao. And Minato arrived at the battlefield first because he wanted to more than the other Kage. Evident by the fact that Hashirama, Tobirama, and Hirzuen all arrived at the same time depsite the massive difference in actual speed. Cause they were just casually getting to the battlefield while Minato was rushing.. It's as simple as that quite frankly.


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## sabre320 (Mar 23, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Or maybe I did read your post and you have no idea what you are talking about ? Maybe that's it ?
> 
> What you " think " Tobirama said isn't what he actually said. Viz translation has Tobirama saying: " your teleportation is better than mine ." He didn't say faster at all, that's something misinterpreted into the websites. And better doesn't necessity connote to faster like Ya know faster does... Better would apply to FTG more than it would apply to shunshin as that would clearly be faster .
> 
> Don't know why you are trying to tell me of all people what Shunshin is lmao. And Minato arrived at the battlefield first because he wanted to more than the other Kage. Evident by the fact that Hashirama, Tobirama, and Hirzuen all arrived at the same time depsite the massive difference in actual speed. Cause they were just casually getting to the battlefield while Minato was rushing.. It's as simple as that quite frankly.



wow dude minato rushing to the battlefield and the others casually strolling lol the reasons people come up with to downplay minato forget how tobirama was the first one who rushed off to fight madara and avoided ros edo ontrol and insulted madara for not doing the same he was so afraid of madaras threat and what he would do to konoha..but ofcourse they casually strolled to the battlefield


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## Veracity (Mar 23, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> wow dude minato rushing to the battlefield and the others casually strolling lol the reasons people come up with to downplay minato forget how tobirama was the first one who rushed off to fight madara and avoided ros edo ontrol and insulted madara for not doing the same he was so afraid of madaras threat and what he would do to konoha..but ofcourse they casually strolled to the battlefield



Don't even know what your talking about lol? Doesn't sound like you have any proof basically.

You know how I know Tobirama wasn't rushing to the battlefield ? He arrived at the same time as Hashirama and Hirzuen despite them all displaying much different shunshin speeds. If they were " rushing " then their arriving time would be staggered , but arriving at the same time ? Hell the fuck no. They clearly moving in unison with casual movement speeds( no shunshin) and arrived at the same time. So either Minato used shunshin unlike the other kage, or his physical movement speed is better than the other Kages. Both are irrelevant regardless but pick one .


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Really? Why is that BS? Obito literally ran right through Minato instead of absorbing him. He also relied on immobilizing him with his chains indicating that Obito could never absorb him considering Minato never attempted to use FTG at that instant.
> 
> Furthermore, as I stated before, Minato needed FTG to dodge Obito's Kamui due to Obito grabbing his hand. The only reason Obito managed to do that was because Minato lacked knowledge on Kamui at the time.
> 
> ...



obito kamui was never stated or implied to have improved. same for EI speed. obito kamui didnt get faster. there is something such as mastering a technique to its limit. how do u know obito kamui at that point wasnt as good as it would ever get?

fact is obito in his best dreams is still slower than minato and could never catch him 

as for the match, madara in PS auto renders obito kamui wrap useless. Hashirama using multiple clones does as well, especially if they are rigged. obito is very strong but in front of these 2, he is nothign more than a waste of time


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> obito kamui was never stated or implied to have improved. same for EI speed. obito kamui didnt get faster. there is something such as mastering a technique to its limit. how do u know obito kamui at that point wasnt as good as it would ever get?



  - Bringing up Ei's speed to the discussion is irrelevant.

 - Obito's Kamui didn't get faster as I already stated this. I stated his activation time is faster, therefore, he can use Kamui faster. This is clear with Kakashi against Deidara where him being inefficient with the technique caused him to take time just to build up chakra for the Kamui Warp. As he preogressed with the technique, so did his ability to use and activate Kamui, struggling to warp off a part of Deidara's body to warping a few Susano'o Arrows in a mere instant to managing to "blitz" Obito's reactions to set up a feint with Kamui (requiring him to use it twice in that instant). 

 - Obito was never implied to have mastered a technique to it's limit, so as he constantly trained (which is evident as he no longer requires the Zetsu Suit), his MS prowess improved and his abililty to gather chakra to activate Kamui improved. 

 - You also haven't proved that Obito at that moment completely mastered Kamui. Just becuase you're skilled with a technique doesn't mean you have mastered it.

 - How do you know Obito's Kamui was the best as it could have been during the 3rd Shinobi War? Considering he wasn't even in his Prime yet, it seems illogical to believe his strongest ability was the best it could have been.



> fact is obito in his best dreams is still slower than minato and could never catch him
> 
> as for the match, madara in PS auto renders obito kamui wrap useless. Hashirama using multiple clones does as well, especially if they are rigged. obito is very strong but in front of these 2, he is nothign more than a waste of time



 I never denied that. Obito rushed through Minato without any intention of absorbing Minato, meaning he couldn't absorb Minato rushing at him without FTG which is pathetic as it shows Minato's Physical Speed and Reactions can evade absorption.

 I agree with the last part.


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## Icegaze (Mar 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> - Bringing up Ei's speed to the discussion is irrelevant.
> 
> - Obito's Kamui didn't get faster as I already stated this. I stated his activation time is faster, therefore, he can use Kamui faster. This is clear with Kakashi against Deidara where him being inefficient with the technique caused him to take time just to build up chakra for the Kamui Warp. As he preogressed with the technique, so did his ability to use and activate Kamui, struggling to warp off a part of Deidara's body to warping a few Susano'o Arrows in a mere instant to managing to "blitz" Obito's reactions to set up a feint with Kamui (requiring him to use it twice in that instant).
> 
> ...



prove his activation time got faster. any statements from kishi or any character to that effect?
its relevant to bring up EI because ur BS excuse for obito increase in reaction time is because he would have improved his speed over the years. which u have no basis to go on 

kakashi improving=/= obito improving. kakashi had sharingan since he was 13 . somehow in part 1 could barely pull off 4 raikiri before he dropped 3 years later he a kamui spammer. so why didnt he improve from 13 to part 1? 

its silly to assume obito improved with nothing to go on 

obito was never implied to not have mastered the technique to its limit either 

actually you have to prove he wasnt already a master. why assume he wasnt?

kishi made no indication obito had improved from when he lost to minato till the war 

again no basis to go on to claim obito improved. he got a fairly convinient skill which allows him to not do much. notice his taijutsu wasnt any decent kakashi bested him quite simply. 

obito probably felt no need to polish his skill so he didnt. considering the time konan took to learn about his skills. he somehow never quite seemed to improve his phase time. why assume his reactions would have gotten better when they would have never needed to improve. 

was obito training like gai? or naruto or sasuke??


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## sabre320 (Mar 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> obito kamui was never stated or implied to have improved. same for EI speed. obito kamui didnt get faster. there is something such as mastering a technique to its limit. how do u know obito kamui at that point wasnt as good as it would ever get?
> 
> fact is obito in his best dreams is still slower than minato and could never catch him
> 
> as for the match, madara in PS auto renders obito kamui wrap useless. Hashirama using multiple clones does as well, especially if they are rigged. obito is very strong but in front of these 2, he is nothign more than a waste of time



obito was trolling bm naruto gai kakashi and bee at the same time with kamui stop downplaying obito and overhying hashi...in a physical exhange he can react to raikage kcm naruto bm naruto ect ...hashirama clones were so weak madara sitting down in v1 sussano trolled them madara in v1 sussano is not some god tier jesus..even juubidara couldnt land a touch on obito and was impaled by obito via intangibility hashi isnt landing a touch period while obito can teleport behind hashirama for space time sneak attacks after all sm users can be caught offguard no?not to mention obito will be enhanced by  double yin yang chakra shrouds...


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> prove his activation time got faster. any statements from kishi or any character to that effect?
> its relevant to bring up EI because ur BS excuse for obito increase in reaction time is because he would have improved his speed over the years. which u have no basis to go on



 Prove that they didn't.

 You seriously believe that Obito, who's skills weren't even in his prime wasn't any stronger than he was when he entered his Prime? You seriously believe Obito's most powerful technique didn't improve when logically it should as that's what makes up a huge part of his arsenal?

 Tell me, why wasn't Obito capable of using Juubi-Sized Katon, Enormous Kamui Shurikens on par with Madara's Yasaka Magatama, use Projectiles in conjunction with Kamui, Katon with Kamui, and even go as far as to combine Kamui, Katon, and Projectiles when he was Young?  War Arc Obito could literally dodge BM Naruto point blank and effortlessly dodge KCM Naruto alongside V1 Enhanced Ninja. War Arc Obito could handle BM Naruto, the Hachibi, Kakashi, and Gai while Young Obito was crippled by a Base Minato who's speed is considerably lower than Young Ei's and required multiple Kunai to bail him out. You have no basis here.

 So please, share those so called Young Obito's feats because I'm sure there are none.



> kakashi improving=/= obito improving. kakashi had sharingan since he was 13 . somehow in part 1 could barely pull off 4 raikiri before he dropped 3 years later he a kamui spammer. so why didnt he improve from 13 to part 1?



 Kakashi admitted he was out of shape. Obito did not, so thus, that comparison is inaccurate.



> its silly to assume obito improved with nothing to go on



 Already touched up on this. It's silly to think an Uchiha who already trained to the point of not requiring a Zetsu Suit as someone who didn't improve. Hell, Minato flat out stated that Obito would be a potential threat in the future and we was referring only to Obito in that statement.



> obito was never implied to not have mastered the technique to its limit either



 Your argument is flawed since you're overusing the same argument. Again I ask, what makes you believe Obito mastered his Kamui at a Young Age when there's nothing that implies it? I already presented that Obito's skill with Kamui was already enhanced as he can do multiple things with it. Young Obito could not.



> actually you have to prove he wasnt already a master. why assume he wasnt?



 Because he wasn't in his prime. Please name any ninja who reached their full potential when they were only 13-14 years of age. I can assure you that there aren't any. 



> kishi made no indication obito had improved from when he lost to minato till the war



 Disproven.



> again no basis to go on to claim obito improved. he got a fairly convinient skill which allows him to not do much. notice his taijutsu wasnt any decent kakashi bested him quite simply.



 That was without Kamui which is why I explicitly stated that Kamui is his strongest technique. If Obito didn't even enter his Prime at that point, then logically his Kamui improved as he enters his Prime. It's common sense. I never denied that his Taijutsu wasn't great, but we've already seen how Obito bested Kakashi with Kamui in CQC and it was not pretty for Kakashi there. We've also seen how Obito's reactions alongside Kamui allowed him to best KCM Naruto.



> obito probably felt no need to polish his skill so he didnt. considering the time konan took to learn about his skills. he somehow never quite seemed to improve his phase time. why assume his reactions would have gotten better when they would have never needed to improve.



 We have no indication of Young Obito's ability to sustain Kamui.

 That argument doesn't refute that Obito's reflexes, techniques that came with Kamui, and Kamui activation time improved. Because again, we have seen Obito whip KCM Naruto like a rag doll in CQC and even KCM Naruto admitted that Obito was very strong, the same guy who can effortlessly destroy many boulders and block V1 Ei's hits.


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## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2015)

@narutoX28
i dont have to prove it you do
its a foolish unsubstantiated assumption not supported by kishi

character statements of any kind to that effect?

nope 

kakashi noted he improved. where is obito statement saying the same thing

we also have no indication that 5 minutes isnt the default time for kamui. 

when kishi you know the author who matters here and you dont wants something to be clear he makes it clear

1) naruto improvement from Sm to KCM 
2) nagato being >>>>>>paths 
3) kakashi improved kamui, both in speed and barrier placement
4) sasuke improvement from part 1 to part 2
5) onoki beign faster in war arc than in his prime


kishi is painfully obvious when he wants something to be taken into account. as to young obito feats of using katon or whatever else you mentioned, i dont see how that would have helped him beat minato. its not liek  war arc obito wont loose as easily so your point is fairly irrelevant

like i said kihsi wants something to be noted he goes out with it and states it. nothing more nothing less. 
go on and tell me by how much he improved then. since he wasnt in his prime


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## T-Bag (Mar 29, 2015)

The 2 legendary figures that shaped the ninja world vs a bunch of 1 trick ponies

I wonder


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## ARGUS (Mar 29, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Or maybe I did read your post* and you have no idea what you are talking about ?* Maybe that's it ?



maybe you didnt read it, but just skimmed through it, .and maybe thats why you're resorting to, your usual style of downgrading an argument without providing a real basis, annd maybe thats why it went horribly wrong here, 
and when your points will be refuted (once again) you will not reply back and continue to say the same things over and over again 
maybe thats exactly it,? 



> What you " think " Tobirama said isn't what he actually said. Viz translation has Tobirama saying: " your teleportation is better than mine ."



if you really know about shunshin than you should also know that the Viz and english translation of shunshin is ''teleportation'' 
shunshin is called ''teleportation jutsu'' 
so yeah he was talking about shunshin not FTG 
faster shunshin (speed) = nothing other than better shunshin 
unless you think that slower speed is better than faster speed?



> He didn't say faster at all,


Thats what was implied and confirmed 



> that's something misinterpreted into the websites. And better doesn't necessity connote to faster like Ya know faster does... Better would apply to FTG more than it would apply to shunshin as that would clearly be faster .


We already know that hokages after a certain amount of time resorted to using shunshin instead of FTG, 
better shunshin (movement speed) constitutes to nothing other than faster shunshin 

faster speed = better speed, there is no way around it, 



> Don't know why you are trying to tell me of all people what Shunshin is lmao.


Because you dont seem to know what it actually is 



> And Minato arrived at the battlefield first *because he wanted to more than the other Kage*.


Thats a piss poor of an argument to run circles  around an established manga fact 
each and every single hokage was keen on joining the battle ASAP, due to the sheer fact that the whole shinobi world was about to end, 



> Evident by the fact that Hashirama, Tobirama, and Hirzuen all arrived at the same time depsite the massive difference in actual speed. *Cause they were just casually getting to the battlefield while Minato was rushing.. It's as simple as that quite frankly*.



Uhh No, 
minato arrived before them, set markings around the battlefield and teleported the juubi dama, all before they even arrived, 
they all resorted to using shunshin after a certain amount of time, whether the other hokages arrived  at the same time oor not  is irrelevant since there is literally no proof whatsoever that minatos shunshin is  inferior, because he arrived a hell lot earlier 

the manga has already told us that he is faster than any other hokage, (which includes  tobirama) and letting personal views of favortism on this incident is just a sign of stupidity


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## Joakim3 (Mar 29, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> The 2 legendary figures that shaped the ninja world vs a bunch of 1 trick ponies
> 
> I wonder



The 2 legendary fighters get fodder stomped in this match 

Madera gets nuked out of existence against BM Naruto & Minato... PS at _best_ lets him survive a few Bijudama rounds

Hashirama's entire arsenal is trolled by Obito's _Kamui_, with Nagato providing the firepower support to kill Hashi once Obito gets them into CqC range (and this is before we talk about team eye hax being chakra boosted by Naruto & Minato), Hashirama spamming clones simply prolongs the inevitable


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## Lawrence777 (Mar 30, 2015)

This is_ far _from a stomp. It is a bit much for Hashi and Mads though imo. Obito plays a pretty decisive role with his intangibility harassment. 

Team 1 isn't going to roll over them with firepower though lol. If they try to engage in direct confrontation and see who can out-nuke who, team 2 will win hands down with Shinsuusenju/PS. 

I mean, realistically, what're they going to do? Shoot bijuu damas at them? Use CST?


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