# Luffy vs Zoro



## o0Shinthi0o (Dec 22, 2021)

With King down by Zoro's hand , what diff does Zoro give Luffy ?


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Dec 22, 2021)

He gives Luffy high diff. Luffy still has superior aCoA and aCoC mastery, and far superior CoO.

His aCoC usage also lasts longer than Zoro's.
And G4 outlasts Asura by far. Not that he couldn't, but Luffy doesn't even need to engage Asura as Zoro overexerts himself maintaining aCoC on top of Asura.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Freechoice (Dec 22, 2021)

Solid High diff 

But with Luffy's power up during his fight with Kaido it will become on the lower end of high diff

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Dec 22, 2021)

Luffy mid - high diffs. Much more impressive AdCoc feat, better overall fighting ability, future sight and unlike Zoro, he's use of AdCoC isn't on a short timer.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Lmao (Dec 22, 2021)

Solid high diff.


----------



## A Optimistic (Dec 22, 2021)

High difficulty

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Eustathios (Dec 22, 2021)

Luffy very high diff

Reactions: Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Dec 22, 2021)

There should've been an Extreme diff poll option, for the Zoro fans who don't want to vote High. Now they're going to vote Draw instead.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## o0Shinthi0o (Dec 22, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> There should've been an Extreme diff poll option, for the Zoro fans who don't want to vote High. Now they're going to vote Draw instead.


Yes , mistakes

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## Quipchaque (Dec 22, 2021)

Somewhere in high/extreme diff range. As always it depends on how ashura actually functions. As a mode I'd say extreme diff and as a quick technique high diff.


----------



## convict (Dec 22, 2021)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Yes , mistakes



Look again

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## Ren. (Dec 22, 2021)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> With King down by Zoro's hand , what diff does Zoro give Luffy ?


For now solid High diff aka his default diff aka not extreme diff near equal crap.

If Luffy gets awakening at best low high diff just because this is OL and we know why.

And there is no extreme fight in an arc where he defets Kaido or Crocodile or Luci.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Kanki (Dec 22, 2021)

By power scaling and even feats he probably mid difs. 

But ultimately I think it's a high diff.

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## Ren. (Dec 22, 2021)

convict said:


> Look again


Also mate extreme diff means he also can defeat Kaido   , never chance I give you consistency.


----------



## trance (Dec 22, 2021)

high diff as it should be

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Conxc (Dec 22, 2021)

Solid high - very high or very high - extreme.  Luffy is Luffy. The argument here has to be made for Zoro. He’s at the point where any attack that he lands on Luffy will be bad for him. Luffy does have FS, but that doesn’t make him invincible as people will try to argue. Their CoA is comparable. AdCoC wise, they’ve been using it for about the same amount of time. Proficiency should be comparable, the only issue here is that Enma puts a time limit on him, but it should be longer than what he was able to do vs King if he’s fresh. I think at the very least we are looking at very high diff.

edit: I mean, this thread is just gonna be filled with people not treating AdCoC as the same upgrade for Zoro as it is for Luffy. They were comparable on the RT and they both got the same power up. Luffy is the MC, he wins, but it is far from an easy fight. Anything below solid high diff is tier specialist tbh.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## CaptainCommanderRenji (Dec 22, 2021)

Future sight makes it high instead of extreme. Luffy doesn't have to tank Zoro's best attacks, he can just dodge.


----------



## Freechoice (Dec 22, 2021)

Extreme is dumb
Draw is straight retarded


I refuse to believe that there are people here that earnestly think Zoro vs Luffy is a draw



Edit: lol some people saying getting hit by Zoro is essentially a death sentence. 

friend has been fucking smashed left and right by Kaido for dozens of chapters

Even in the damn dick from Kaido's strongest shown attack and he's still ploughing along

But nah one sword attack from Zoro and he's done for, fucking dead

You guys are absolutely ridiculous

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3 | Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Tier Specialist 2


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 22, 2021)

Mid diff.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2021)

Mid diff

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Dec 22, 2021)

Zoro would have to prove his aCoC has surpassed Yamato's before we can talk about it being comparable to Luffy's who has a Yonkou level aCoC feat in base. So far Yamato has them both beat in experience. Only reason we know Luffy's aCoC has surpassed Yamato's is because Luffy managed to split the sky with a basic punch and Yamato admits she can't split the sky at all. Luffy's aCoC surpassing her makes sense because his CoC was already at a high level before awakening aCoC, and he specializes in it despite also having CoA and CoO at the highest level. Neither of which applies to Zoro. While Luffy's knocking out 50,000 fishmen in one attempt many many power ups ago, current Zoro's CoC is knocking out several of Kaidou's men in a small room, something beginning of Wano Luffy managed to do while passed out. The difference is the ones knocked out by Zoro woke up two chapters later and the 50,000 fishmen didn't wake up for a long time. Luffy's CoC has also been potent enough to clash equally with opponents in a higher tier than himself, multiple times, due to it being his speciality.

As far as CoA goes, Zoro already admitted at the beginning of the rooftop battle Luffy's aCoA mastery is beyond his own. He attempted what Luffy did and ended up doing no damage. He later compensated by feeding more Haki to Enma. He said it himself, the solution was to feed more Haki to Enma. Not his other swords. In the end, only Enma hurt Kaidou. All of the damage made by Zoro's multiple sword style attacks were single slash wounds from Enma, even with Asura.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 7


----------



## Lmao (Dec 22, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I mean, this thread is just gonna be filled with people not treating AdCoC as the same upgrade for Zoro as it is for Luffy.


Luffy's AdCoC is splitting the sky with a Yonko while Zoro's can't even fully knock out fodder yet.

Why would we treat it the same? There are levels to haki and Luffy's is clearly a step above. It's almost as if he trained with a CoC master for two years or something

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 6


----------



## Ren. (Dec 22, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Zoro would have to prove his aCoC has surpassed Yamato's before we can talk about it being comparable to Luffy's who has a Yonkou level aCoC feat in base. So far Yamato has them both beat in experience. Only reason we know Luffy's aCoC has surpassed Yamato's is because Luffy managed to split the sky with a basic punch and Yamato admits she can't split the sky at all. Luffy's aCoC surpassing her makes sense because his CoC was already at a high level before awakening aCoC, and he specializes in it despite also having CoA and CoO at the highest level. Neither of which applies to Zoro. While Luffy's knocking out 50,000 fishmen in one attempt many many power ups ago, current Zoro's CoC is knocking out several of Kaidou's men in a small room, something beginning of Wano Luffy managed to do while passed out. The difference is the ones knocked out by Zoro woke up two chapters later and the 50,000 fishmen didn't wake up for a long time. Luffy's CoC has also been potent enough to clash equally with opponents in a higher tier than himself, multiple times, due to it being his speciality.
> 
> As far as CoA goes, Zoro already admitted at the beginning of the rooftop battle Luffy's aCoA mastery is beyond his own. He attempted what Luffy did and ended up doing no damage. He later compensated by feeding more Haki to Enma. He said it himself, the solution was to feed more Haki to Enma. Not his other swords. In the end, only Enma hurt Kaidou. All of the damage made by Zoro's multiple sword style attacks were single slash wounds from Enma, even with Asura.


Bingo.

Luffy has superior COA, COO and COC.

COA a sub tier.

COC is his speciality.
COO an entire tier at worst.


Lmao said:


> Luffy's AdCoC is splitting the sky with a Yonko while Zoro's can't even fully knock out fodder yet.
> 
> Why would we treat it the same? There are levels to haki and Luffy's is clearly a step above. It's almost as if he trained with a CoC master for two years or something


The funny thing is that these people were the ones that said COC is fodder removal.

And when AdvCOC was shown Zoro was still close to Luffy.

I mean bitch please guck off to WG forum where you belong.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Ren. (Dec 22, 2021)

Conxc said:


> people not treating AdCoC as the same upgrade for Zoro as it is for Luffy.


Oh this will age like milk. The same as Zoro will mid diff King and Zoro will kill Kaido.



The COC specialist that  has COC since MF and that split the sky with a Yonko has the same COC mastery with Zoro, you can't make this shit up.

@Lmao  let us wait until Kaido vs Luffy has more panels to laugh at this.

Reactions: Winner 4


----------



## Grinningfox (Dec 22, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Zoro would have to prove his aCoC has surpassed Yamato's before we can talk about it being comparable to Luffy's who has a Yonkou level aCoC feat in base. So far Yamato has them both beat in experience. Only reason we know Luffy's aCoC has surpassed Yamato's is because Luffy managed to split the sky with a basic punch and Yamato admits she can't split the sky at all. Luffy's aCoC surpassing her makes sense because his CoC was already at a high level before awakening aCoC, and he specializes in it despite also having CoA and CoO at the highest level. Neither of which applies to Zoro. While Luffy's knocking out 50,000 fishmen in one attempt many many power ups ago, current Zoro's CoC is knocking out several of Kaidou's men in a small room, something beginning of Wano Luffy managed to do while passed out. The difference is the ones knocked out by Zoro woke up two chapters later and the 50,000 fishmen didn't wake up for a long time. Luffy's CoC has also been potent enough to clash equally with opponents in a higher tier than himself, multiple times, due to it being his speciality.
> 
> As far as CoA goes, Zoro already admitted at the beginning of the rooftop battle Luffy's aCoA mastery is beyond his own. He attempted what Luffy did and ended up doing no damage. He later compensated by feeding more Haki to Enma. He said it himself, the solution was to feed more Haki to Enma. Not his other swords. In the end, only Enma hurt Kaidou. All of the damage made by Zoro's multiple sword style attacks were single slash wounds from Enma, even with Asura.


This is excellent

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 22, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Oh this will age like milk.
> 
> 
> 
> The COC specialist that  has COC since MF and that split the sky with a Yonko has the same COC mastery with Zoro


Man even claimed that they have comparable CoA even though Luffy trained to unlock the advanced versions   

Crazy part is these are all advantages Luffy has even without G4.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 6


----------



## Ren. (Dec 22, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> Man even claimed that they have comparable CoA even though Luffy trained to unlock the advanced versions
> 
> Crazy part is these are all advantages Luffy has even without G4.


Luffy has implosion haki that even BM/Kaido don't have.

Zoro even tried to use that level of COA and he could not, He used Enma to damage Kaido on the RT and COC with Asura without knowing.

That gent in on ignore because what he is reading is not OP ... it is Zoro piece.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Grinningfox (Dec 22, 2021)

I’d give Zoro better odds against the Luffy who got thrown off the roof but even then it’s tough


----------



## Corax (Dec 22, 2021)

Very high diff.


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 22, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Luffy has implosion haki that even BM/Kaido don't have.
> 
> Zoro even tried to use that level of COA and he could not, He used Enma to damage Kaido on the RT and COC with Asura without knowing.
> 
> That gent in on ignore because what he is reading is not OP ... it is Zoro piece.


I'm surprised you gave it a high diff even though Luffy has all these advantages.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Conxc (Dec 22, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Luffy's AdCoC is splitting the sky with a Yonko while Zoro's can't even fully knock out fodder yet.
> 
> Why would we treat it the same? There are levels to haki and Luffy's is clearly a step above. *It's almost as if he trained with a CoC master for two years or something *


Zoro hasn’t been put in the position to split the sky with a CoC user as he hasn’t fought one. And Luffy hasn’t even _attempted_ to use CoC on Kaido’s Onigashima forces. This is. Yonkou crew. Everyone here has been proven to be strong by their own right. They were still effected by his CoC, you’re simply nitpicking and brining up bad points.

The bold is simply…ironic seeing how that same CoC master explicitly stated that you *cannot *train CoC. That alone shows how much you know. Bring a real point of evidence next time you come back, and thanks for playing.

As for Len, with the “chick I greased but never called back” syndrome…I’m not even going to acknowledge like you clearly want, any more than this. Tbh you’re hardly worth the @ so I won’t do that. You’ll see it because you watch and wait for me to post. That’s sweet though.

“That gent on the ignore list who I somehow *stay *@ing” headass. Shut up.   obsessed ass.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Ren. (Dec 22, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> I'm surprised you gave it a high diff even though Luffy has all these advantages.


For now is a high diff.

When I have more I will change it if necessary.


If his new feats scream solid mid diff or low high diff I will say that.


----------



## Conxc (Dec 22, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> As far as CoA goes, Zoro already admitted at the beginning of the rooftop battle Luffy's aCoA mastery is beyond his own. He attempted what Luffy did and ended up doing no damage. He later compensated by feeding more Haki to Enma. He said it himself, the solution was to feed more Haki to Enma. Not his other swords. In the end, only Enma hurt Kaidou. All of the damage made by Zoro's multiple sword style attacks were single slash wounds from Enma, even with Asura.


This is…fanfic? He didn’t say Luffy’s Haki was superior, reacted to the new application that Hyou taught him, which appears to be the way to harm Kaido with blunt force. If Luffy being able to do this is what makes him a better CoA user you’d have to say the same thing about Hyou but I think we know better than that, but who knows.

Zoro did not try and use the same application as Luffy when he first attacked Kaido. He simply didn’t allow enough of his Haki to flow, when he did , he started dealing damage. Ashura leaving a single slash is not evidence that only Enma damaged Kaido because Ashura only leaves one slash in the first place. See Kaku. Which single blade cut Kaku then? I thought we were well passed the Enma was the real fighter on the rooftop bs. Guess it depends. And the usual suspects giving you attaboys on a bad post that downplays Zoro.   So predictable.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Tier Specialist 2


----------



## Lmao (Dec 22, 2021)

Conxc said:


> They were still effected by his CoC, you’re simply nitpicking and brining up bad points.


Nice strawman, I never said they weren't affected by his CoC, I said they weren't fully knocked out by it which directly correlates to the strength of his CoC.

The ball is in your court to prove he has equal CoC to Luffy's, Yamato has AdCoC too and even hers is weaker than Luffy's despite using it for over a decade. 



Conxc said:


> The bold is simply…ironic seeing how that same CoC master explicitly stated that you *cannot *train CoC. That alone shows how much you know.


I said he trained with a CoC master not that he trained CoC, read properly before you reply.

Also, while CoC cannot be trained it can be *controlled*, which is something Luffy has been doing for the past two years. 

It's asinine to think someone who just started using CoC is as proficient with it as Luffy.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


----------



## Ren. (Dec 22, 2021)

Lmao said:


> I said he trained with a CoC master not that he trained CoC, read properly before you reply.
> 
> Also, while CoC cannot be trained it can be *controlled*, which is something Luffy has been doing for the past two years.
> 
> It's asinine to think someone who just started using CoC is as proficient with it as Luffy.


Also COC is directly proportional with the will/haki of the user.

Luffy could take out 50k in FI, Shanks could do 100k. Luffy in MF could not control it at all.

Zoro did 3, was doing zero on the RT.

Either way you are wasting your time with a WG scrub, I don't know why we even take him serious!


Look at all his posts ... all are the same as the scrubs from OJ that migrated to WG the ZvsS scrubs.

2300 posts of you adding no value to this forum ... take a hint  aka go back to WG.


----------



## Dunno (Dec 22, 2021)

Zoro was obviously stronger until Luffy got his CoC upgrade mid-rooftop, and now that Zoro has gotten his CoC upgrade, he's ahead again, albeit not by as much as at the start of the rooftop fight. Zoro takes this with very high to extreme diff currently. After Luffy gets his next power-up against Kaido, he likely wins with approximately the same diff instead.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Neutral 1 | Tier Specialist 4


----------



## Conxc (Dec 22, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Nice strawman, I never said they weren't affected by his CoC, I said they weren't fully knocked out by it which directly correlates to the strength of his CoC.


The point is that they were still affected by it. Looked to me that they were knocked out but recovered quickly. Again, these aren’t just any forces. There’s a reason tha Luffy hasn’t even tried to knock any of them out with his own CoC before the rooftop and simply fought them.


Lmao said:


> The ball is in your court to prove he has equal CoC to Luffy's, Yamato has AdCoC too and even hers is weaker than Luffy's despite using it for over a decade.


That’s cool. Show me where I said they were dead equal. I said they’ve been using AdCoC for about the same amount of time. If there is a gap between the two, which there could be, I simply do not believe it’s a large one seeing how they’ve both weaponized it for about the same amount of time. It’s about application. Luffy had been using CoA for how long before Hyou taught him emission. He still had a hard time simply adjusting to that application.


Lmao said:


> I said he trained with a CoC master not that he trained CoC, read properly before you reply.


So in what other relevant context was that point supposed to be taken? Unless you’re claiming that he trained CoC this is a quite literally useless piece of information here.


Lmao said:


> Also, while CoC cannot be trained it can be *controlled*, which is something Luffy has been doing for the past two years.


Controlled as in..switching application to weaponize it? Yeah, Luffy did that. Zoro did too. Both have exhibited control over the ability.


Lmao said:


> It's asinine to think someone who just started using CoC is as proficient with it as Luffy.


They *both *started applying it as coating.

Sidenote: how am I *still *being ridden this hard from the ignore list…? If that man is your friend tell him this is an unhealthy obsession.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ShadoLord (Dec 22, 2021)

extreme diff

the difference being FS. It has always been extreme diff, since all the way back in Whiskey Peak/East Blue.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 3


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2021)

Zoro said:


> extreme diff
> 
> the difference being FS. It has always been extreme diff, since all the way back in Whiskey Peak/East Blue.


What about gear 4?

Reactions: Funny 2 | Neutral 1


----------



## ShadoLord (Dec 22, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> What about gear 4?


That redundant garbage of a mode that wastes away Luffy? What about it?

Reactions: Neutral 1 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## T.D.A (Dec 22, 2021)

extreme diff

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2021)

Zoro said:


> That redundant garbage of a mode that wastes away Luffy? What about it?


No the mode that took him from being able to do nothing to katakuri to beating him, the mode that took him from being beaten by doflamingo to ragdolling him all around dressrosa, the one that amplifies all of his stats. Not that he even needa it to win, but snakeman + futuresight, zoro is never hitting him and not dodging him, and hes not taking too many snakeman ACoC or ACoA attacks, luffy is just too far ahead of zoro

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## ShadoLord (Dec 22, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> No the mode that took him from being able to do nothing to katakuri to beating him


what truly beat Kat was his awakening of FS

what truly beat Kaido was his awakening of aCotC

...see the pattern?


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2021)

Zoro said:


> what truly beat Kat was his awakening of FS
> 
> what truly beat Kaido was his awakening of aCotC
> 
> ...see the pattern?


You dont know what youre talking about, it was fs + snakeman, without snakeman luffy wasnt gonna have the speed or the power to take katakuri out. Go re read the fight. Youre just downplaying it to try and make a case of zoro being closer to luffy than he actually is

His final attack was literally a snakeman attack ffs

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## ShadoLord (Dec 22, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> You dont know what youre talking about, it was fs + snakeman, without snakeman luffy wasnt gonna have the speed or the power to take katakuri out. Go re read the fight. Youre just downplaying it to try and make a case of zoro being closer to luffy than he actually is
> 
> His final attack was literally a snakeman attack ffs


you moron, Luffy has snakeman the entire time since the timeskip it was obviously FS awakening that played the major role in defeating Kat ffs. If Snakeman was enough, Luffy would have defeated him prior to trying to see the future.


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2021)

Zoro said:


> you moron, Luffy has snakeman the entire time since the timeskip it was obviously FS awakening that played the major role in defeating Kat ffs. If Snakeman was enough, Luffy would have defeated him prior to trying to see the future.


How am i a moron, luffy literally couldnt hit him without snakeman and you cant refute it, getting mad and calling people names because you were proven wrong, how old are you?
If futuresight was enough to defeat kata, why would luffy use snakeman?


----------



## Canute87 (Dec 22, 2021)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> With King down by Zoro's hand , what diff does Zoro give Luffy ?



Very High.  

This dynamic will never change.


----------



## Canute87 (Dec 22, 2021)

Zoro said:


> you moron, Luffy has snakeman the entire time since the timeskip it was obviously FS awakening that played the major role in defeating Kat ffs. If Snakeman was enough, Luffy would have defeated him prior to trying to see the future.


This has got my  most highly used panel to date.


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 22, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> How am i a moron, luffy literally couldnt hit him without snakeman and you cant refute it, getting mad and calling people names because you were proven wrong, how old are you?
> If futuresight was enough to defeat kata, why would luffy use snakeman?


----------



## Canute87 (Dec 22, 2021)

Was this when katakuri stabbed himself?


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 22, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> Was this when katakuri stabbed himself?


Was after that, yeah.


----------



## Conxc (Dec 22, 2021)

@DarkRasengan is one of the most consistent Zoro haters here. I wouldn’t seriously engage him tbh. Nothing you say or prove will matter.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Canute87 (Dec 22, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> Was after that, yeah.


okay.


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2021)

And that did little to no damage which is why he used snakeman


----------



## blueWaves (Dec 22, 2021)

Luffy would win high difficulty. Mid difficulty is underrating Zoro. Extreme difficulty is overrating Zoro. High difficulty hits the sweet spot.


----------



## Conxc (Dec 22, 2021)

But I gotta say…as invincible as FS makes Luffy, he’s sure been tagged a lot since awakening it….


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 22, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> And that did little to no damage which is why he used snakeman


I mean, your argument when I quoted you was that he couldn't hit Katakuri without snake man. I was just pointing out how that wasn't true.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> I mean, your argument when I quoted you was that he couldn't hit Katakuri without snake man. I was just pointing out how that wasn't true.


He did once when kata wasnt focused on futuresight, for the rest of the fight he couldnt and luffy needed snakeman to put him down, hence why luffy used snakeman. I dont know why i have to argue that snakeman is a powerup when by definition it is and luffy needed it to defeat katakuri


----------



## Conxc (Dec 22, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> He did once when kata wasnt focused on futuresight, for the rest of the fight he couldnt and luffy needed snakeman to put him down, hence why luffy used snakeman


A concession would’ve been enough. You were proven wrong. Now you’re just continuously moving the goalpost. Don’t be like that.


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 22, 2021)

Conxc said:


> This is…fanfic? He didn’t say Luffy’s Haki was superior, reacted to the new application that Hyou taught him, which appears to be the way to harm Kaido with blunt force. If Luffy being able to do this is what makes him a better CoA user you’d have to say the same thing about Hyou but I think we know better than that, but who knows.


Hyou didn't know how to use the advanced level of armament that Luffy has himself. That's why he couldn't free them from the shackles. He just knew about it. Besides, that argument would only work if you assume Luffy was always several levels below Zoro in CoA mastery which is...


----------



## Conxc (Dec 22, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> Hyou didn't know how to use the advanced level of armament that Luffy has himself. That's why he couldn't free them from the shackles. He just knew about it. Besides, that argument would only work if you assume Luffy was always several levels below Zoro in CoA mastery which is...


Hyou demonstrated the “barrier” Haki to Luffy, who IIRC confirmed that’s what he himself was trying to do, then Hyou proceeded to teach him how to do it.

Luffy doesn’t have to be below Zoro in CoA mastery at all for the argument to work. My point is that the application was new to him. As proven as his CoA was since the timeskip as he continued to grow, he *did *struggle with the whole emission or “barrier” concept until he eventually learned it. It’s a simple application difficulty. Going by the logic you’re using here, Sentomaru’s CoA is on the same level as the Admirals who can also use “barrier” Haki. Obviously that’s not the case.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2021)

Conxc said:


> A concession would’ve been enough. You were proven wrong. Now you’re just continuously moving the goalpost. Don’t be like that.


Im not moving the goalpost, my original point is g4 is a powerup that luffy needed to defeat katakuri which is true to which this guy coincidentally named zoro said it wasnt a powerup

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 22, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Hyou demonstrated the “barrier” Haki to Luffy, who IIRC confirmed that’s what he himself was trying to do, then Hyou proceeded to teach him how to do it.
> 
> Luffy doesn’t have to be below Zoro in CoA mastery at all for the argument to work. My point is that the application was new to him. As proven as his CoA was since the timeskip as he continued to grow, he *did *struggle with the whole emission or “barrier” concept until he eventually learned it. It’s a simple application difficulty. Going by the logic you’re using here, Sentomaru’s CoA is on the same level as the Admirals who can also use “barrier” Haki. Obviously that’s not the case.


What Luffy used to hurt Kaido went beyond even the barrier Haki.


*Spoiler*: __ 








It's not just a different application, it's an advanced level of armament. Which is why we universally call it advanced armament. It becomes more powerful as you make it level up. The point doesn't imply that once you learn this haki you're automatically of a certain level, so Sentomaru's CoA doesn't have to be on par with the Admiral's.

We know Luffy's CoA is well above Zoro's now because he was already reasonably close to Zoro in CoA mastery before he evolved it two entire levels.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ShadoLord (Dec 22, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> How am i a moron, luffy literally couldnt hit him without snakeman and you cant refute it, getting mad and calling people names because you were proven wrong, how old are you?
> If futuresight was enough to defeat kata, why would luffy use snakeman?


Old enough to discipline you heh. 

You're making the mistake here, reread what I just wrote. Luffy has always had snakeman mode, it wasn't enough to beat Kat until he unlocked his FS as well.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2021)

Zoro said:


> Old enough to discipline you heh.
> 
> You're making the mistake here, reread what I just wrote. Luffy has always had snakeman mode, it wasn't enough to beat Kat until he unlocked his FS as well.


You didnt though, i read what you wrote, and futuresight wasnt enough to beat katakuri which is why he used snakeman, im using your dumb logic against you and still proving you wrong
Snakeman is a major powerup which is why luffy used it to defeat kata, he couldnt have without it hence my original argument, g4 is a significant powerup

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## ShadoLord (Dec 22, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> Snakeman is a major powerup


and you're still saying you read what I wrote.

Snakeman, Boundman, etc. are stuff Luffy has since the timeskip. It's not a powerup.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2021)

Zoro said:


> and you're still saying you read what I wrote.
> 
> Snakeman, Boundman, etc. are stuff Luffy has since the timeskip. It's not a powerup.


Yes they are, its a different mode he uses to power up his stats, he also hasnt had them since the start of the series so youre just changing your argument because you are wrong

G4 is a mode that makes luffy stronger, hence a powerup

Your originsl post said g4 is a redundant garbage of a mode, i simply disproved you and you kept changing your argument with dumb technicalities that dont disprove that its a significant powerup over zoro

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Conxc (Dec 22, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> Im not moving the goalpost, my original point is g4 is a powerup that luffy needed to defeat katakuri which is true to which this guy coincidentally named zoro said it wasnt a powerup


You did move the goalpost because at first you said that Snakeman was needed for Luffy to even tag him. You claimed it was irrefutable, then you got proven wrong and now this is your argument. Textbook.


Chip Skylark said:


> What Luffy used to hurt Kaido went beyond even the barrier Haki.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Yes, I remember now. You’re right, Internal destruction is a step above in proficiency.


Chip Skylark said:


> We know Luffy's CoA is well above Zoro's now because he was already reasonably close to Zoro in CoA mastery before he evolved it two entire levels.


I wouldn’t say well above. Using Kaido as an example, they did comparable damage to him on the rooftop. I think that Luffy is a more *proficient *user as he is capable of basic CoA, Hardening, Emission and now internal destruction to Zoro’s basic, Hardening, imbuement and Emission, but *potency *is a different story. Luffy should have done a considerably higher amount of damage to Kaido pre-AdCoC in comparison to Zoro if his CoA is _well above _Zoro’s own.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2021)

Conxc said:


> You did move the goalpost because at first you said that Snakeman was needed for Luffy to even tag him. You claimed it was irrefutable, then you got proven wrong and now this is your argument. Textbook.
> 
> Yes, I remember now. You’re right, Internal destruction is a step above in proficiency.
> 
> I wouldn’t say well above. Using Kaido as an example, they did comparable damage to him on the rooftop. I think that Luffy is a more *proficient *user as he is capable of basic CoA, Hardening, Emission and now internal destruction to Zoro’s basic, Hardening, imbuement and Emission, but *potency *is a different story. Luffy should have done a considerably higher amount of damage to Kaido pre-AdCoC in comparison to Zoro if his CoA is _well above _Zoro’s own.


No, my original post said that luffy could do nothing to kata without snakeman, which is true, and he needed snakeman to beat kata, which is also true


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 22, 2021)

Zoro said:


> and you're still saying you read what I wrote.
> 
> Snakeman, Boundman, etc. are stuff Luffy has since the timeskip. It's not a powerup.





DarkRasengan said:


> You didnt though, i read what you wrote, and futuresight wasnt enough to beat katakuri which is why he used snakeman, im using your dumb logic against you and still proving you wrong
> Snakeman is a major powerup which is why luffy used it to defeat kata, he couldnt have without it hence my original argument, g4 is a significant powerup


You guys haven’t realized you’re just arguing over semantics yet?

Wasting each other’s time tbh

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> You guys haven’t realized you’re just arguing over semantics yet?
> 
> Wasting each other’s time tbh


My original point is right and not disproven, luffy couldnt have beaten kata without snakeman
Hes just taking me down a rabbit hole of idiocy because he realized hes wrong

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 22, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I wouldn’t say well above. Using Kaido as an example, they did comparable damage to him on the rooftop. I think that Luffy is a more *proficient *user as he is capable of basic CoA, Hardening, Emission and now internal destruction to Zoro’s basic, Hardening, imbuement and Emission, but *potency *is a different story. Luffy should have done a considerably higher amount of damage to Kaido pre-AdCoC in comparison to Zoro if his CoA is _well above _Zoro’s own.


I disagree, but it doesn’t matter much.

At the very least we should be able to agree that Luffy is more proficient in CoA, has much better observation haki, and is a level above in AdCoC since Zoro hasn’t demonstrated the ability to use the “untouchable blow”.

I don’t see how Zoro could give Luffy high diff or more when Luffy has _that_ many advantages. Feels like giving Zoro way too much benefit of the doubt. We saw how much FS alone advantaged Katakuri against Luffy. Why assume Luffy would struggle in this scenario even more than that despite having more advantages in this fight?

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Conxc (Dec 22, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> At the very least we should be able to agree that Luffy is more proficient in CoA, has much better observation haki, and is a level above in AdCoC since Zoro hasn’t demonstrated the ability to use the “untouchable blow”.


More proficient at CoA, yes. Better observation Haki, yes, but Zoro is no slouch in either department, especially CoA. As for AdCoC, I don't know what the general consensus on what  is, but I think it is the "no touch" application. Literally the same space and  pattern around it. The only difference is that King isn't and AdCoC user himself.


Chip Skylark said:


> I don’t see how Zoro could give Luffy high diff or more when Luffy has _that_ many advantages. Feels like giving Zoro way too much benefit of the doubt. We saw how much FS alone advantaged Katakuri against Luffy. Why assume Luffy would struggle in this scenario even more than that despite having more advantages in this fight?


I think that those advantages together form the reason that he wins in the first place. Despite all of those things, he still had a very comparable performance to Zoro on the RT. Obviously not counting AdCoC, but Zoro's own first use of it, unconsciously, managed to scar Kaido in a near death state. Since then he's shown very good use and control and even the no touch skill.

Edit: And regarding Katakuri, he was ragging on Luffy because he was better at *everything. *He dedicated a very good portion of the fight to just flexing on him. Wasn't just FS.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 22, 2021)

Conxc said:


> More proficient at CoA, yes. Better observation Haki, yes, but Zoro is no slouch in either department, especially CoA. As for AdCoC, I don't know what the general consensus on what  is, but I think it is the "no touch" application. Literally the same space and  pattern around it. The only difference is that King isn't and AdCoC user himself.
> 
> I think that those advantages together form the reason that he wins in the first place. Despite all of those things, he still had a very comparable performance to Zoro on the RT. Obviously not counting AdCoC, but Zoro's own first use of it, unconsciously, managed to scar Kaido in a near death state. Since then he's shown very good use and control and even the no touch skill.
> 
> Edit: And regarding Katakuri, he was ragging on Luffy because he was better at *everything. *He dedicated a very good portion of the fight to just flexing on him. Wasn't just FS.


We saw Zoro and King clash while touching even after so we can safely assume it wasn’t the “no touch” CoC blow. Especially since it wasn’t even an attack in the first place. They were already blade to blade, and Zoro was just trying to free his swords.

Sure, Zoro’s great in each category, but… Luffy’s at least a level above in each. It’s weird to me because in any other match up a character wouldn’t need to be an entire level above another character in every category to just barely manage a high difficulty win.

Also it wasn’t because Katakuri was better at everything. It was explained that Kat was using his FS to perfectly counter. Which is why Luffy could match him with the same attacks that were originally overpowered as soon as he could start seeing the future himself.



Not like that even matters. We’ve already both acknowledged that Luffy is better than Zoro in everything at this point. Mostly, at least. Don’t know if you’ll keep arguing that Zoro can use “no touch”, and split the skies after this.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ShadoLord (Dec 22, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> Yes they are, its a different mode he uses to power up his stats, he also hasnt had them since the start of the series so youre just changing your argument because you are wrong
> 
> G4 is a mode that makes luffy stronger, hence a powerup
> 
> Your originsl post said g4 is a redundant garbage of a mode, i simply disproved you and you kept changing your argument with dumb technicalities that dont disprove that its a significant powerup over zoro


Yah no. G4 ain't a powerup, you can disagree with it but just know you're wrong. 

It is redundant, tell me what is Luffy doing against Kaido as of right now?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Conxc (Dec 22, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> We saw Zoro and King clash while touching even after so we can safely assume it wasn’t the “no touch” CoC blow. Especially since it wasn’t even an attack in the first place. They were already blade to blade, and Zoro was just trying to free his swords.


Mmm...that's not really a great reason to dismiss it IMO. Do you agree that all of the elements of the no touch use are present except for King being a CoC user? The panels are almost completely identical. Zoro freed his sword not by pulling on them or overpowering King there. So what would you say he did to free his swords if not those things and not the no touch Haki?

As for them clashing regularly afterwards, BM is a known and confirmed AdCoC and no touch Haki user. We know this because we saw her do it. She's been fighting Kid and Law without explicitly showing it right now.


Chip Skylark said:


> Sure, Zoro’s great in each category, but… Luffy’s at least a level above in each. It’s weird to me because in any other match up a character wouldn’t need to be an entire level above another character in every category to just barely manage a high difficulty win.


I'd give Zoro the nod in overall defensive stats. AP they're close, though many would probably disagree. I beleive that overall, Haki and base stats included, they're closer than many people think. Also, EoS, unless you think Luffy would beat Mihawk with anything less than high diff (absolutely should be higher) then...power to you. If they aren't already pretty close then I guess we're saying Zoro will grow faster from now to EoS.


Chip Skylark said:


> Also it wasn’t because Katakuri was better at everything. It was explained that Kat was using his FS to perfectly counter. Which is why Luffy could match him with the same attacks that were originally overpowered as soon as he could start seeing the future himself.
> 
> 
> 
> Not like that even matters. We’ve already both acknowledged that Luffy is better than Zoro in everything at this point. Mostly, at least. Don’t know if you’ll keep arguing that Zoro can use “no touch”, and split the skies after this.


FS was the main reason Kat was winning, but he literally did everything better than Luffy. Luffy grew during the fight. Kat already beat him around mid diff before he took a trip outside of mirror world to replenish his Haki.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2021)

Zoro said:


> Yah no. G4 ain't a powerup, you can disagree with it but just know you're wrong.
> 
> It is redundant, tell me what is Luffy doing against Kaido as of right now?


It is a powerup youre wrong lol and it isnt redundant he even used it against kaido, and zoro isnt kaido, he also needed it to defeat katakuri as ive states, youre wrong and you know it


----------



## Van Basten (Dec 22, 2021)

Current Luffy probably mid diffs (high end.) Split the sky and all that. Zoro will catch up back to high diff territory post Wano.


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Dec 23, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> Yes they are, its a different mode he uses to power up his stats, he also hasnt had them since the start of the series so youre just changing your argument because you are wrong
> 
> G4 is a mode that makes luffy stronger, hence a powerup
> 
> Your originsl post said g4 is a redundant garbage of a mode, i simply disproved you and you kept changing your argument with dumb technicalities that dont disprove that its a significant powerup over zoro


Just ignore this Zoro person.

His arguments are just as brilliant moss head's sense of direction.

Tbh the moment he said that Gear 4 is a garbage mode is a red light that he isn't reading One piece but Zolo piece.

Anyone who actually reads the manga knows how insane a boost of Gear 4 is on top of base form Luffy.

The thing is current Luffy could very possibly beat Zoro even in base form, and Gear 4 would only further stack the odds against Zoro.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Dec 23, 2021)

Extreme

Luffy > Zoro > Yamato >>> Rooftop Zoro > Rooftop Luffy (before advanced King's haki)


----------



## Conxc (Dec 23, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Extreme
> 
> Luffy > Zoro > *Yamato >>> Rooftop Zoro > Rooftop Luffy* (before advanced King's haki)

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## ClannadFan (Dec 23, 2021)

Just a reminder that Zoro was stronger coming out of the time skip.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2 | Neutral 2


----------



## o0Shinthi0o (Dec 23, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> Just a reminder that Zoro was stronger coming out of the time skip.


Luffy > Zoro in every version after from EL .

Reactions: Like 6 | Disagree 1


----------



## Danyboy (Dec 23, 2021)

They were comparable on rooftop and got the same power up after, but Luffy probably is a little bit more proficient w it and will get better while fight w Kaido goes on. End of Wano Luffy high-extreme diffs end of Wano Zoro.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ren. (Dec 23, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> I disagree, but it doesn’t matter much.
> 
> At the very least we should be able to agree that Luffy is more proficient in CoA, has much better observation haki, and is a level above in AdCoC since Zoro hasn’t demonstrated the ability to use the “untouchable blow”.
> 
> I don’t see how Zoro could give Luffy high diff or more when Luffy has _that_ many advantages. Feels like giving Zoro way too much benefit of the doubt. We saw how much FS alone advantaged Katakuri against Luffy. Why assume Luffy would struggle in this scenario even more than that despite having more advantages in this fight?


You are talking to a wall.

You are wasting your free time with set troll.


----------



## Ren. (Dec 23, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> Just a reminder that Zoro was stronger coming out of the time skip.


Just a reminder Oda in the vivre card made Zoro the strongest  SHP after Luffy:


Luffy already had Boundman, Snakeman and tank man , KKG, Boundman gattling etc in FI.

So no.

Zoro never was, never will be equal or stronger than Luffy.

His default state is a high diff to Luffy in major arcs.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Freechoice (Dec 23, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> Just a reminder that Zoro was stronger coming out of the time skip.


Just a reminder that this guy is wrong

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 3


----------



## Ren. (Dec 23, 2021)

Freechoice said:


> Just a reminder that this guy is wrong


Don't worry,  I remind him  that each week he says that.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Sherlōck (Dec 23, 2021)

Zoro can push Luffy to use 60% of his strength at best.

And that's me being generous.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Tier Specialist 2


----------



## TheWiggian (Dec 23, 2021)

High (low-high) diff win for Luffy. Zoro's current standing is left pretty ambiguous with the way he massacred King post PU. He can bypass Luffy's durability far easier than King's and Luffy would need to use massive amounts of haki to defend himself against the mosshead's lethal strikes. Last i checked FS didn't let Luffy stand out among the RT5 in terms of prediction other than noticing the combo attack 1 panel earlier than the others. I don't see any use of advanced armament post conqueror's coating too. Mosshead putting up a good fight here before going down.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 23, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Mmm...that's not really a great reason to dismiss it IMO. Do you agree that all of the elements of the no touch use are present except for King being a CoC user? The panels are almost completely identical. Zoro freed his sword not by pulling on them or overpowering King there. So what would you say he did to free his swords if not those things and not the no touch Haki?
> 
> As for them clashing regularly afterwards, BM is a known and confirmed AdCoC and no touch Haki user. We know this because we saw her do it. She's been fighting Kid and Law without explicitly showing it right now.
> 
> I'd give Zoro the nod in overall defensive stats. AP they're close, though many would probably disagree. I beleive that overall, Haki and base stats included, they're closer than many people think. Also, EoS, unless you think Luffy would beat Mihawk with anything less than high diff (absolutely should be higher) then...power to you. If they aren't already pretty close then I guess we're saying Zoro will grow faster from now to EoS.


Uh... no, I really can't agree that all the elements are present. 

Both fighters don't need to be CoC users for the "untouchable blow" to be a thing. Which is why when someone truly has it you can see the effect even without an equal clash between CoC users. I honestly don't know what Zoro did there. There were a quite a few hard to interpret panels in that fight. However, fact of the matter is Zoro didn't have the "no touch" effect a single time throughout his entire fight while actually attacking. Feels like an assumption you forced just to say that Zoro could rival Luffy in AP.

We've seen Big Mom _clearly _use the "untouchable blow". The same really can't be said for Zoro.

And just to illustrate the difference:


*Spoiler*: __ 








It's a stretch to see any genuine similarity with no actual impact. Best you could argue is the black lightning, but you know that comes with all CoC attacks.



> FS was the main reason Kat was winning, but he literally did everything better than Luffy. Luffy grew during the fight. Kat already beat him around mid diff before he took a trip outside of mirror world to replenish his Haki.



Luffy grew in his CoO mastery. Not in overall ability. Katakuri only commented on his growth in observation because that's all there was to it, and I'm sure you realize that to at least some extent. Weird to act like that feat I referenced was a result of his growth in overall ability despite the panel clearly pointing out only his newfound ability to see the same future as Katakuri. In fact, there wasn't a single point throughout the entire fight where it was mentioned that he was growing in overall ability.

And Luffy literally couldn't touch Katakuri at all before leaving the mirror world aside from that one time where Kat wasn't using his CoO because he was frustrated from his merienda being ruined... there's no way to reasonably stretch that to mid diff.



> Despite all of those things, he still had a very comparable performance to Zoro on the RT.



And just to emphasize the point about how Zoro's prowess is clearly being exaggerated in your argument here:

If you look back through the rooftop fight you'll see that Zoro only cut Kaido once prior to his CoC awakening. Just once. There was that one attack that Big Mom told Kaido to dodge, but of course that didn't land.

On the other hand, Luffy damaged Kaido several times. To the point where he even had Dragon Kaido laid out on the floor for a brief period.

Peep the difference between Luffy's intro solo attack vs Zoro & Killer's combined attack, for example:


*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 








By no reasonable stretch of the imagination could this be considered a "comparable performance". There was no point where Zoro was remotely close to having Kaido like this:


*Spoiler*: __ 








I love Zoro too, but when he's truly capable of giving Luffy a high difficulty fight there won't be a need to either downplay Luffy's advanced Haki, exaggerate Zoro's performance, or give Zoro abilities he clearly hasn't demonstrated.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 5 | GODA 1


----------



## Ren. (Dec 23, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> Uh... no, I really can't agree that all the elements are present.
> 
> Both fighters don't need to be CoC users for the "untouchable blow" to be a thing. Which is why when someone truly has it you can see the effect even without an equal clash between CoC users. I honestly don't know what Zoro did there. There were a quite a few hard to interpret panels in that fight. However, fact of the matter is Zoro didn't have the "no touch" effect a single time throughout his entire fight while actually attacking. Feels like an assumption you forced just to say that Zoro could rival Luffy in AP.
> 
> ...


Man you have the patience of me when I was doing this on OJ.

From my experience, this kind of debate I do with people that appreciate it.

@Mihawk  is for some someone like that.

But good stuff to read, remind me of my essays from before.  



Chip Skylark said:


> I love Zoro too, but when he's truly capable of giving Luffy a high difficulty fight there won't be a need to either downplay Luffy's advanced Haki, exaggerate Zoro's performance, or give Zoro abilities he clearly hasn't demonstrated.


But that is always the case.

Before Zoro got Adv COC, Zoro was close.

now when Zoro got Adv COC, that is important and he is neck in neck.

I am waiting for the panels that will come next and Luffy and Zoro in feast will not be close using Adv COC on most stats even AP.

I even can see Luffy having close to Onigashima level of AP in his final move on Kaido to defeat him.

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 23, 2021)

Ren. said:


> But that is always the case.
> 
> Before Zoro got Adv COC, Zoro was close.
> 
> ...


I don't think we should _always_ default to something. Especially when it comes to power scaling. Standings between characters change, and in this particular case not being comfortable with that has a lot of people assuming Zoro can somehow keep up with FS without actually having an argument for why or how.

There are levels to advanced CoC, and Luffy is clearly a step or two above Zoro. Simply being strong and having advanced CoC doesn't allow you to compete with all advanced CoC users in AP. Even if Zoro could somehow put out an attack that's comparable to Luffy's sky splitting, that doesn't address the disparity in their other skill sets.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Ren. (Dec 23, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> I don't think we should _always_ default to something. Especially when it comes to power scaling. Standings between characters change, and in this particular case not being comfortable with that has a lot of people assuming Zoro can somehow keep up with FS without actually having an argument for why or how.
> 
> There are levels to advanced CoC, and Luffy is clearly a step or two above Zoro. Simply being strong and having advanced CoC doesn't allow you to compete with all advanced CoC users in AP. Even if Zoro could somehow put out an attack that's comparable to Luffy's sky splitting, that doesn't address the disparity in their other skill sets.


I agree with you but it is a pain in the ass to debate based on feats and facts Zoro vs Luffy and it is this way for like 10 years.
And to define what the pain is, the zelots and most of Zoro's fans that is the pain.

On paper Luffy destroys Zoro in feats haki etc.

Let's say and I said this before he can achieve now high diff because he knows Luffy the most  similar to how Usoup did  way above his Power in W7.

But my evaluations did not change and this can be a solid mid diff when we get the feats vs Kaido.

The same way when I said King and Zoro is probably more extreme than Mr1 and for me it was.


When you debate with them this is how it is done, Zoro's cuts are the most leathal shit ever, him cutting Kaido is the next shit ever, him scaring Kaido is the uber next shit ever, him gettin ADv COC is the most important PU in OP.

But Luffy damaged Kaido with a Red Rock and the impact shits on Zoro's before Asura scar and that was ADv COA with G3, him scaring Kaido is all that he got and Kaido was fine for Yamato and Luffy after. Next chapter Adv COC base Luffy was shiting on that and the didn't agreee but now when Zoro has ADv COC o he did what dominated King ... thing about consistency for once.

When I said that Adv COC demolishes RT Zoro, his zelots said he was close, now they are making Adv COC the next uber shit since a black blade.


When debating Zoro prepare yourself for double standards because for some reason they think Luffy and Zoro are extremely close when Zoro defeated King and Luffy with help will defeats  kaido in Wano, Luffy defeated Lucci while zoro defeated kaku etc.

So to be fair for his fans Zoro in major arcs is a low high diff, and that can fluctuate to maybe extreme diff when Zoro gets his PU like Enma and Luffy had only FS or solid mid diff aka the feats that he will get from defeating Kaido vs Zoro vs King.


----------



## Conxc (Dec 23, 2021)

@Chip Skylark will respond when I get on a desktop. I actually stitched together the Roger-WB exchange directly next to the Zoro-King exchange and as I said, aside from the fact that Zoro is defending here, it’s pretty much the same panel. For one, you’re comparing effects from blunt force attacks to sword attack. If you look at the Roger-WB exchange, then look at BM and Luffy’s attacks…the animation is almost completely different. That’s why I purposefully went and found the Roger-WB exchange. Same Haki usage, way different animation. Ironically enough, the Zoro-King exchange is *far *more similar to the Roger-WB exchange than what you showed from Luffy and BM. But like I said, when I can also respond with scans etc, I will respond in full depth.

edit: and not for nothing, *this *is what debate is. Respectful exchanges of evidence. Tell your buddy there that when he can conduct himself like that, then maybe I’ll give him the time of day. Til the , I guess he can continue to chirp while he presses that “see ignored content” just for me. nobody likes a clingy girl.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Gitagon (Dec 23, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> You didnt though, i read what you wrote, and futuresight wasnt enough to beat katakuri which is why he used snakeman, im using your dumb logic against you and still proving you wrong
> Snakeman is a major powerup which is why luffy used it to defeat kata, he couldnt have without it hence my original argument, g4 is a significant powerup


Snakeman is not a power-up. Luffy had it the entire time post Timeskip. Future Sight was the power-up.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Ren. (Dec 23, 2021)

@Chip Skylark

Watch this, not bad regarding COC and COA levels.


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 23, 2021)

Gitagon said:


> Snakeman is not a power-up. Luffy had it the entire time post Timeskip. Future Sight was the power-up.


Snakeman is a powerup because it powers up his base abilities, are you that zoro guys dupe? I dont know anyone else who would come to this nonsense conclusion
Definition of a powerup from urban dictionary


to  ones power within the body showing a great increase in strength, speed, and . 

Snakeman does two out of the 3 of these, hence its a powerup by definition


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 23, 2021)

Luffy high diff like always


----------



## Conxc (Dec 23, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> Uh... no, I really can't agree that all the elements are present.
> 
> Both fighters don't need to be CoC users for the "untouchable blow" to be a thing.* Which is why when someone truly has it you can see the effect even without an equal clash between CoC users.* I honestly don't know what Zoro did there. There were a quite a few hard to interpret panels in that fight. However, fact of the matter is Zoro didn't have the "no touch" effect a single time throughout his entire fight while actually attacking. Feels like an assumption you forced just to say that Zoro could rival Luffy in AP.


@bold: You...literally do. You just don't want to accept it as such. You admitted that you have no clue what Zoro did there...but you're _certain _that it isn't Hands off CoC (this is what I'm calling it). Well, let me show you:  *Literally *the only difference in effect here between these two scans is that Roger and WB are both AdCoC users that are capable of Hands off CoC, hence the impact mark in the spot where their attacks come to contact. Obviously this one thing would not be present because King is not an AdCoC user and because Zoro didn't use this ability to attack in this instance, but to free his swords. AGain, he did not overpower King here or pull his swords loose and *that matters*. Every other element of the Roger - WB exhange is present in the Zoro - King exchange from a visual aspect. In a chapter that was meant to *highlight *Zoro's ascension and CoC usage, I don't see what else it could be.

I also find it a little funny how AdCoC *as it is*, as a skill in the OP verse is already such a rare thing that it's only likened to a "handful of the strongest." Now that Zoro has shown this ability, it only feels natural that fans have to now add exclusivity within this already exclusive ability *just *to claim he's still a step below everyone else shown doing it, even though he *clearly* just showed it. But eh.


Chip Skylark said:


> We've seen Big Mom _clearly _use the "untouchable blow". The same really can't be said for Zoro.
> 
> And just to illustrate the difference:
> 
> ...


Yes, let's illustrate the difference:  I 100% agree that there is a very glaring difference here. It has always been pretty silly to compare the effects of blunt force attacks to cutting attacks and that has not changed with AdCoC. As you can see, there is a huge difference in effect. The impact marks are way different between the swordsmen (please don't start arguing semantics regarding WB, I'm just keeping it simple) and the brawlers. This point is kinda moot. The Zoro vs King scan checks off most boxes when compared to the Roger vs WB scan. If you were to cross check the Luffy scan to the Roger vs WB scan, you'd come out with more differences despite these being confirmed uses of Hand Off CoC.


Chip Skylark said:


> Luffy grew in his CoO mastery. Not in overall ability. Katakuri only commented on his growth in observation because that's all there was to it, and I'm sure you realize that to at least some extent. Weird to act like that feat I referenced was a result of his growth in overall ability despite the panel clearly pointing out only his newfound ability to see the same future as Katakuri. In fact, there wasn't a single point throughout the entire fight where it was mentioned that he was growing in overall ability.


I'll give Luffy durability over Katakuri. CoO growth was what allowed him to land blows that would put Katakuri down. Other than that Katakuri showed better DF mastery, better CoA, better CoO, better strength. Luffy simply took way more hits than he did. Other than that, Katakuri mid diffed him *at best *before the Brulee shenanigans. Also, I believe that it was chapter 888-890 where Kata told him that he beat him out in speed, strength, etc.


Chip Skylark said:


> And Luffy literally couldn't touch Katakuri at all before leaving the mirror world aside from that one time where Kat wasn't using his CoO because he was frustrated from his merienda being ruined... there's no way to reasonably stretch that to mid diff.


Fine by me. This further proves my point as Katakuri gave him a nukmber of chances to overpower him *if *he could, which he *couldn't*, taking time in the fight just to flex on him by showing him better versions of his own abilities. CoO doesn't account for the strength or DF mastery diff that was exhibited.


Chip Skylark said:


> And just to emphasize the point about how Zoro's prowess is clearly being exaggerated in your argument here:
> 
> If you look back through the rooftop fight you'll see that Zoro only cut Kaido once prior to his CoC awakening. Just once. There was that one attack that Big Mom told Kaido to dodge, but of course that didn't land.
> 
> On the other hand, Luffy damaged Kaido several times. To the point where he even had Dragon Kaido laid out on the floor for a brief period.


This is...pretty silly. For all the attacks that Luffy *landed *on Kaido there, he got up just fine as he did after Zoro's Tatsumaki, one of his lower end moves btw. Now you're penalizing Zoro because his fighting style is different. Luffy is a speed type fighter. He accumulates his damage by attacking in rapid succession. Zoro does not, but he still pumps out comparable levels of damage when he does land an attack. This assualt of Luffy's that you posted didn't have any more of an effect on Kaido than Zoro's Tatsumaki did, and the fact that Zoro cut him was still made a focal point of the chapter. If your argument here is "lol Luffy attack faster so he stronger" then we might as well agree to disagree. Zoro saved Luffy at least twice on the RT. He no sold an Indra. He was the *only *one that was able to react to Hakai (lul FS right) and blocked it, completely stopped it in it's tracks for a few seconds. Look at the RT feats *entirely*. Zoro put up numbers in *multiple *different stats. Then he went and scarred Kaido permanently in a near death state. I think you need to re-read the RT chapters again and pay attention. 




Chip Skylark said:


> Peep the difference between Luffy's intro solo attack vs Zoro & Killer's combined attack, for example:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



*Spoiler*: __ 




An attack that did nothing because he didn't distribute enough of his Haki to the attack, which he himself said. After that what happened? He cut Kaido with Tatsumaki, he put out an attack that had both Yonkou sweating, miss or not, and he scarred Kaido permanently.





Chip Skylark said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, re-read the RT chapters, friend. It's one thing to think Luffy performed better. That probably changes depending on who you favor, andf that is what it is... but it is completely disingenuous to say that their performances weren't comparable, and frankly I'm being nice because Zoro absolutely showed more in many different stats on the RT. AP, overall defense, reactions. Ap wise they were comparable. Defensively Zoro shat on everybody. Reactions, Zoro.


Chip Skylark said:


> *Spoiler*: __


And again, Luffy landed more attacks hits on him than anybody, but did he *do more damage* than everybody? It was he and Zoro up there in AP and Luffy didn't garner many differences in reaction from Kaido. Cutting attacks will hardly if ever really knock someone to the ground like that. Pre-Udon Luffy did all of this if that's all it takes. I know we aren't going to sit here and say that pre-Udon Luffy, who didn't even tickle Kaido did more than Zoro did too because he made Kaido fall to the ground? This is that silly comparing of blunt force attacks to cutting attacks again...This is about as silly as me saying Luffy did less because he didn't manage to *cut* Kaido like Zoro did.


Chip Skylark said:


> I love Zoro too, but when he's truly capable of giving Luffy a high difficulty fight there won't be a need to either downplay Luffy's advanced Haki, exaggerate Zoro's performance, or give Zoro abilities he clearly hasn't demonstrated.


I could say the same thing, just change Luffy and Zoro's names around. Luffy's RT performcance was decisive;y better than Kidd and Law's. Not Zoro's. Zoro is at the point where he isn't being put down mid diff by anyone that isn't in an Admiral/Yonkou/Mihawk etc and Luffy is not there yet. By the time he will be, Zoro will be around that level also. 


Again, though, I have to ask you, what diff do you think guys like Mihawk and Shanks will push EoS Luffy to?

Reactions: Winner 3


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 23, 2021)

Conxc said:


> @bold: You...literally do. You just don't want to accept it as such. You admitted that you have no clue what Zoro did there...but you're _certain _that it isn't Hands off CoC (this is what I'm calling it). Well, let me show you:  *Literally *the only difference in effect here between these two scans is that Roger and WB are both AdCoC users that are capable of Hands off CoC, hence the impact mark in the spot where their attacks come to contact. Obviously this one thing would not be present because King is not an AdCoC user and because Zoro didn't use this ability to attack in this instance, but to free his swords. AGain, he did not overpower King here or pull his swords loose and *that matters*. Every other element of the Roger - WB exhange is present in the Zoro - King exchange from a visual aspect. In a chapter that was meant to *highlight *Zoro's ascension and CoC usage, I don't see what else it could be.


Dude, as I just explained without there being an actual impact what Zoro did would resemble any number of CoC feats outside of the “untouchable blow”. Hence why I’m sure it’s not that despite not being sure of what exactly it was.

It could easily just be a regular CoC burst.



See what I mean? Looks about the same as what Zoro did. As seen in the panel that application of CoC can physically interact with the environment enough to have pushed Zoro away. We also saw how King wasn’t blown back by some incredible force, which the “no touch” CoC would’ve done considering the type of move it is, so the panel I posted actually lines up better with the level of power that was output.

Besides, for the second time now, Zoro didn’t actually attack. That level of AdCoC is literally called the “untouchable blow”, per canon. I didn’t make that up. Key word being “blow”. A crucial component that Zoro was missing there.




Conxc said:


> Fine by me. This further proves my point as Katakuri gave him a nukmber of chances to overpower him *if *he could, which he *couldn't*, taking time in the fight just to flex on him by showing him better versions of his own abilities. CoO doesn't account for the strength or DF mastery diff that was exhibited.


Feel like you already forgot the point… I referenced that panel to show that Luffy could match the same attacks that previously overpowered him just by learning how to see into the future. Katakuri using even more of his strength later on in the fight after seeing how Luffy developed his CoO doesn’t refute that.

Again, not saying that Katakuri wasn’t stronger than Luffy without G4. Just saying that Luffy could match attacks he couldn’t previously simply be learning FS. Because at the beginning of the fight Kat wasn’t beating Luffy with overwhelming force, he was just using FS to get the upper hand. Later on Kat brought out more strength like you said, but again that's besides the point.


Conxc said:


> This is...pretty silly. For all the attacks that Luffy *landed *on Kaido there, he got up just fine as he did after Zoro's Tatsumaki, one of his lower end moves btw. Now you're penalizing Zoro because his fighting style is different. Luffy is a speed type fighter. He accumulates his damage by attacking in rapid succession. Zoro does not, but he still pumps out comparable levels of damage when he does land an attack. This assualt of Luffy's that you posted didn't have any more of an effect on Kaido than Zoro's Tatsumaki did, and the fact that Zoro cut him was still made a focal point of the chapter. If your argument here is "lol Luffy attack faster so he stronger" then we might as well agree to disagree. Zoro saved Luffy at least twice on the RT. He no sold an Indra. He was the *only *one that was able to react to Hakai (lul FS right) and blocked it, completely stopped it in it's tracks for a few seconds. Look at the RT feats *entirely*. Zoro put up numbers in *multiple *different stats. Then he went and scarred Kaido permanently in a near death state. I think you need to re-read the RT chapters again and pay attention.


Kaido was down for several pages after taking Luffy's attack.


*Spoiler*: __ 









 Kaido didn't go down at all after taking Zoro's attack. 



I don't know if you're just hoping I don't read the manga, or what.

Sure, Zoro cutting Kaido was impressive but you're blatantly exaggerating it. In such a way that it can easily be proven wrong with a quick glance back at the chapter, too. Same goes with all your other points. 

Everyone on the rooftop reacted to the Hakai. Luffy even reacted to it before it even happened, so yeah, shout out to FS. The problem was that no body could _avoid_ it in time. On top of being fast it had a huge AoE. Which is why Zoro had to block it for that one moment so everyone could escape; including himself.



> completely stopped it in it's tracks for a few seconds





Blatantly twisting the manga like this to better suit your argument is no fun to debate against, honestly. I don't know if you're doing this intentionally, or if you genuinely haven't read these chapters in a while, but it's getting kinda tiring to be honest. I really don't wanna assume you're making these arguments even after a re-read.


Conxc said:


> An attack that did nothing because he didn't distribute enough of his Haki to the attack, which he himself said. After that what happened? He cut Kaido with Tatsumaki, he put out an attack that had both Yonkou sweating, miss or not, and he scarred Kaido permanently.


Luffy had the Yonko sweating more than once himself. Missing an attack isn't actually doing something. 


Conxc said:


> Yeah, re-read the RT chapters, friend. It's one thing to think Luffy performed better. That probably changes depending on who you favor, andf that is what it is... but it is completely disingenuous to say that their performances weren't comparable, and frankly I'm being nice because Zoro absolutely showed more in many different stats on the RT. AP, overall defense, reactions. Ap wise they were comparable. Defensively Zoro shat on everybody. Reactions, Zoro.
> 
> And again, Luffy landed more attacks hits on him than anybody, but did he *do more damage* than everybody? It was he and Zoro up there in AP and Luffy didn't garner many differences in reaction from Kaido. Cutting attacks will hardly if ever really knock someone to the ground like that. Pre-Udon Luffy did all of this if that's all it takes. I know we aren't going to sit here and say that pre-Udon Luffy, who didn't even tickle Kaido did more than Zoro did too because he made Kaido fall to the ground? This is that silly comparing of blunt force attacks to cutting attacks again...This is about as silly as me saying Luffy did less because he didn't manage to *cut* Kaido like Zoro did.


At this point there's no way you can't see how much you're reaching here.

Of course Luffy did more damage than anybody after landing much more attacks than everybody. Tatsumaki by itself wasn't going to rival all the damage that Luffy inflicted through his various attacks. There's a reason Kaido constantly singled out Luffy from the beginning.

Cutting attacks can easily knock people down, and have knocked people to the ground. Believe it or not cutting attacks do still have force behind them. Ask King.



Hell, Zoro even said himself that he was trying to knock Kaido to the ground with his final attack on the rooftop. That excuse isn't standing up to scrutiny.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Conxc (Dec 23, 2021)

@Chip Skylark We can agree to disagree. There's simply no point in continuing if you don't see the value in Zoro's RT feats. I don't really want to continue typing essay's to someone who just...won't accept evidence.

Regarding the CoC burst, Zoro used it to *physically remove* his swords from King's trap. There has only been a single time that regular CoC managed to deal any physical damage to something in this verse beside fodder KO, and that's when Shanks boarded WB's ship. In the scan form Luffy vs Katakuri that you posted *that isn't even close *to what Zoro did. You're saying I'm reaching but you are literally comparing the feat to everything but what it *actually *resembles, even after the examples. I'm sure you know that what you posted is completely different, but eh. This is the OL after all.

And you still didn't answer the Mihawk question.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 23, 2021)

It is what it is. The manga says 1 second/moment, you say a few seconds. You say tatsumaki and the Gatling did the same damage, i show the manga pages that illustrate a much different picture than what you claim. So on and so forth. It’s all there. Not just arbitrarily claiming things.

and you can clearly see the ground being destroyed in that Luffy/Kat panel 

I haven’t answered the Mihawk question because it wasn’t relevant to the argument. I don’t intend to power scale based off of future expectations. Just actually tangible feats and whatnot. Even if Zoro could give Luffy a higher diff fight in the future that doesn’t mean he can do that now.


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 23, 2021)

Have you forgotten how fast characters at this level are? Luffy was fast enough to run away from a huge explosion point blank at Punk Hazard. That woman CP9 member was able to defend against lightning that discharged at her point blank. I could go on. Not sure why at this stage you’d think it’s illogical for various actions to happen in a split second.

Dude, in the panels I posted you can clearly see that it took longer for Kaido to recover after Luffy’s attack than he did from Zoro’s. That’s not just me saying that, it’s clearly illustrated in the manga.

Character growth doesn’t always happen simultaneously. For example, Zoro didn’t grow as much in WCI as Luffy because he wasn’t present for any battle. Luffy could potentially get closer to his cap first, leaving Zoro to catch up. You don’t know in what direction the story is gonna go in next. Nobody does. There are a lot more variables involved in power scaling based off future events than what you’re considering. Which is why it’s dumb to power scale off of future expectations.

The chapter is 893. There was no rubble falling either before or after that. You can check.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Dec 23, 2021)

rooftop zoro beats rooftop luffy before his advanced king's haki


----------



## Lmao (Dec 23, 2021)

Conxc said:


> all in a single second? One second?


That's what the official translation says


----------



## BenMazino01 (Dec 23, 2021)

Wait so are you telling me that King has been defeated ? Just like that ??
Is it confirmed ?


----------



## Lmao (Dec 23, 2021)

BenMazino01 said:


> Wait so are you telling me that King has been defeated ? Just like that ??
> Is it confirmed ?


Wrong thread friend.


----------



## BenMazino01 (Dec 23, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Wrong thread friend.


Ah yeah my bad


----------



## BenMazino01 (Dec 23, 2021)

Let's see. Previously Zorro fought an extreme diff fight against a guy who's extremely powerful and fast who also happens to have insane durability and won.

This time he will have a deathmatch against a guy who's even more powerful than his previous adversary.. A guy who's extremely fast, extremely agile, have great durability and also happens to be a monstrous Haki user.. ACOA, ACOO, ACOC at his disposal ready to be used at will.

Zorro on the other hand can also use ACOC but for a limited amount of time compared to his current adversary. It's going to be extremely hard for Zorro to win against a foe who outclassed him in every single aspects. 

In the end he will give a good fight but Luffy would high diffed him..


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

Lmao said:


> That's what the official translation says


I guess Zoro would give Twista a run for his money then. What’s he doing fighting? He should rap.

All of that didn’t happen in one second. It’s literally impossible, just off the word exchange.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 24, 2021)

This can't be your first shounen? We're reading fiction. Its ridiculously common.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Lmao (Dec 24, 2021)

Conxc said:


> All of that didn’t happen in one second.


Oda's word not mine, take it or leave it.


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Oda's word not mine, take it or leave it.


I think common sense should prevail but, eh. Thinking is overrated I guess. No matter how you spin it, more than a single second passed over the course of that exchange.

Also, where did it say it was just a second? I re-read the chapter and didn't see any time given... Would never put it passed you and your camp to fabricate shit, saying it enough that people actually start believing its true.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Dec 24, 2021)

Who cares how long it was. No one else on the rooftop could have done that

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Who cares how long it was. No one else on the rooftop could have done that


its just funny to me because even though that's true, they're using a specific time to downplay it, as you can expect. If Luffy did it, oh forget it dude.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Lmao (Dec 24, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I think common sense should prevail but, eh. Thinking is overrated I guess.


Common sense also dictates talking with an object in your mouth is impossible and yet it happens in One Piece, you are reading a fictional manga, these things happen all the time.



Conxc said:


> Also, where did it say it was just a second? I re-read the chapter and didn't see any time given... Would never put it passed you and your camp to fabricate shit, saying it enough that people actually start believing its true.




This is the official translation.


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

Lmao said:


> Common sense also dictates talking with an object in your mouth is impossible and yet it happens in One Piece, you are reading a fictional manga, these things happen all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What site is that from? Law doesnt even call Zoro "Zoro" or "Zolo." He always adds the "-Ya" at then end of his name. This is from TCB scans and they're extremely reliable.



And even if that were the official, *obviously *more time than one second passed. Last I checked, time standards didn't change in OP. It's literally *impossible* for all of that to have happened in a second. The fact that this is even a debate is frightening.


----------



## Lmao (Dec 24, 2021)

Conxc said:


> What site is that from?


onepiecechapters.online

It uses a Stephen Paul translation, he's the offical Viz translator for One Piece.



Conxc said:


> And even if that were the official, *obviously *more time than one second passed. Last I checked, time standards didn't change in OP. It's literally *impossible* for all of that to have happened in a second. The fact that this is even a debate is frightening.


Which part of Oda wrote it do you not understand? His word > yours, deal with it.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Dec 24, 2021)

Conxc said:


> And even if that were the official, *obviously *more time than one second passed. Last I checked, time standards didn't change in OP. It's literally *impossible* for all of that to have happened in a second


In a verse where characters could move at MHS speeds since Pretimeskip, that's far from impossible. Fuck, take the current situation where entire chapters worth of fights and character development have taken place well within a 5 minutes countdown. It's only impossible to believe Zoro stopped Hakai for a second coz you have a clear agenda here.


Also this is fiction. The author's statements >> yours

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

Lmao said:


> onepiecechapters.online
> 
> It uses a Stephen Paul translation, he's the offical Viz translator for One Piece.
> 
> ...


If it's from him, it's reliable. That still doesn't change the fact that more than a second passed. Oda doesn't change the definition of what a second is and I'm pretty sure Kidd was speaking loosely there. This is a very...odd hill to choose to die on, bud.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Dec 24, 2021)

what chapter isd that   btw


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 24, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> In a verse where characters could move at MHS speeds since Pretimeskip, that's far from possible. Fuck, take the current situation where entire chapters worth of fights and character development have taken place well within a 5 minutes countdown. It's only impossible to believe Zoro stopped Hakai for a second coz you have a clear agenda here.
> 
> 
> Also this is fiction. The author's statements >> yours


I can’t believe he’s interpreting this way… when he’s usually so even handed!


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> what chapter isd that   btw


1009 otherwise known as Zoro's rendition of a Twista verse because apparently for the first and only time in the history of this manga, he decided to talk really fast to keep the feat under a second.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 24, 2021)

Conxc said:


> 1009 otherwise known as Zoro's rendition of a Twista verse because apparently for the first and only time in the history of this manga, he decided to talk really fast to keep the feat under a second.


Look up “talking is a free action” or not. It’s not evidence that’s convinced you zoro was talking very slowly.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Dislike 1


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Look up “talking is a free action” or not. It’s not evidence that’s convinced you zoro was talking very slowly.


Or...you know, normal speed as he has for apparently 1034/1035 chapters so far. Say what he said in normal speed and tell me only a second passed. Not like it really matter anyway. Only you clowns could find multiple ways to downplay a single character stopping a combined Yonkou attack dead in it's tracks. This is just the latest and saddest way to do so. Even if only for a second, it's more than any of the others could have done in the situation and is still a nice leg up over them. Believe what you want.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 24, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Or...you know, normal speed as he has for apparently 1034/1035 chapters so far. Say what he said in normal speed and tell me only a second passed. Not like it really matter anyway. Only you clowns could find multiple ways to downplay a single character stopping a combined Yonkou attack dead in it's tracks. This is just the latest and saddest way to do so. Even if only for a second, it's more than any of the others could have done in the situation and is still a nice leg up over them. Believe what you want.


WHO IS DOWNPLAYING? You are embellishing an already great feat because you wank zoro constantly. I’m sure you didn’t look up what I said. It wouldn’t matter if you did.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Dec 24, 2021)

anyone have access to the raws?


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 24, 2021)

Imagine someone says yeah Usain bolt ran a 9.3 in the hundred and I said no he ran a 9.58 and that moron said “just another attempt to downplay Usain bolt. 9.3 or 9.58 it’s still a great feat no one else could do it.” Like trying to be accurate about something that is IMPRESSIVE despite one side embellishing is downplay.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> WHO IS DOWNPLAYING? You are embellishing an already great feat because you wank zoro constantly. I’m sure you didn’t look up what I said. It wouldn’t matter if you did.


Dude...who are you? Lol, i hardly even wanted to respond to you. Some random account that I see in passing downplaying the character in numerous threads. Shoo fly.

@xmysticgohanx I'm looking but no luck so far. They've gotta be somewhere.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> anyone have access to the raws?


Just found them.


----------



## Kroczilla (Dec 24, 2021)

For the special folks among us

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 24, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Dude...who are you? Lol, i hardly even wanted to respond to you. Some random account that I see in passing downplaying the character in numerous threads. Shoo fly.
> 
> @xmysticgohanx I'm looking but no luck so far. They've gotta be somewhere.


You responded to me bitch. I don’t downplay zoro. He’s my favorite straw hat.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> You responded to me bitch. I don’t downplay zoro. He’s my favorite straw hat.


Yeah, Like I said, I have no clue who you are. A fan perhaps? Got a couple of those in this thread vying for attention. Not sure why though.


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 24, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Yeah, Like I said, I have no clue who you are. A fan perhaps? Got a couple of those in this thread vying for attention. Not sure why though.


How many times can you bench 225?


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

(someone get dude some help)

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Dec 24, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Just found them.


@MShadows sorry to tag you king, but if you have time, 

on page 9/17 in that gallery, what is literally word for word said in the top left panel. is there any explicit mention of an actual timeframe?


----------



## Yumi Zoro (Dec 24, 2021)

Extreme diff either way.
With plot Armor I favor Luffy, whithout plot I favor Zoro.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 24, 2021)

I'm sure we can all put our differences aside and jump these mfs that said "extreme diff" or "draw"

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Dec 24, 2021)

I'm the smartest poster on this forum


----------



## Magentabeard (Dec 24, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> I'm sure we can all put our differences aside and jump these mfs that said "extreme diff" or "draw"


Nah then we gotta do the same thing for the ones who voted mid and low which interestingly has the same amount of votes as extreme and draw

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

Magentabeard said:


> Nah then we gotta do the same thing for the ones who voted mid and low which interestingly has the same amount of votes as extreme and draw


nah, its perfectly fine to downplay. No one from their camp will ever have an issue with that. Instead they'll break balls over a second or two to downplay a feat.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 24, 2021)

It's not even downplaying. Zoro has so many disadvantages even without Luffy using G4  

Zoro can't even last that long with Enma 

Can't say I didn't try to extend an olive branch lol


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 24, 2021)

Magentabeard said:


> Nah then we gotta do the same thing for the ones who voted mid and low which interestingly has the same amount of votes as extreme and draw


Mid is reasonable because luffy has sooo much over zoro that its unthinkable that he could give him high diff if luffy is better at everything and has a massive stat booster on top of all that

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


----------



## MShadows (Dec 24, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> @MShadows sorry to tag you king, but if you have time,
> 
> on page 9/17 in that gallery, what is literally word for word said in the top left panel. is there any explicit mention of an actual timeframe?


Law (?): Zoro, are you still alive? 
Zoro: Yeah... probably 
?: Even if just for an instant, you managed to stop it. Thanks a lot!

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

MShadows said:


> Law (?): Zoro, are you still alive?
> Zoro: Yeah... probably
> ?: Even if just for an instant, you managed to stop it. Thanks a lot!


Thank you. And in your opinion, how much time passed there from the moment that Zoro jumps in front of it?


----------



## MShadows (Dec 24, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Thank you. And in your opinion, how much time passed there from the moment that Zoro jumps in front of it?


Well, it’s obviously more than just an instant considering Zoro stops the blast, Kaido and Big Meme react to it and then Zoro even has enough time to talk to the rest of the crew and allow them to move before the blast explodes.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Informative 2


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

MShadows said:


> Well, it’s *obviously* more than just an instant considering Zoro stops the blast, Kaido and Big Meme react to it and then Zoro even has enough time to talk to the rest of the crew and allow them to move before the blast explodes.


You'd think so, right? But some people just have to push their agenda above all else.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 24, 2021)

They actually linked a perfectly valid article that fully articulates, and even provides examples of the "talking is a free speech" trope that they referenced. Super disingenuous to dismiss the alternative position as an agenda when you clearly didn't even take the time to either look at or address the support they brought up for their side of the argument. The fact that you simply sought out another opinion (from someone that I'd guess you probably already knew would back your preconceived viewpoint) rather than trying to refute what was presented to you with facts and objectivity shows you probably don't have much to actually stand on to begin with. Even if you were right I'm not sure how you expect your opposition to see any validity in your side when you argue that way. 

Earlier you spoke about how a debate is supposed to be. What you're doing now isn't it. Rather than stubbornly repeating your point and looking for people that will herd with you in the face of evidence that conflicts with your view you could, you know, maybe try to argue why this well established trope in fiction somehow doesn't apply to this situation even though the characters gave us a timeframe for their actions.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> They actually linked a perfectly valid article that fully articulates, and even provides examples of the "talking is a free speech" trope that they referenced. Super disingenuous to dismiss the alternative position as an agenda when you clearly didn't even take the time to either look at or address the support they brought up for their side of the argument. The fact that you simply sought out another opinion (from someone that I'd guess you probably already knew would back your preconceived viewpoint) rather than trying to refute what was presented to you with facts and objectivity shows you probably don't have much to actually stand on to begin with. Even if you were right I'm not sure how you expect your opposition to see any validity in your side when you argue that way.
> 
> Earlier you spoke about how a debate is supposed to be. What you're doing now isn't it. Rather than stubbornly repeating your point and looking for people that will herd with you in the face of evidence that conflicts with your view you could, you know, maybe try to argue why this well established trope in fiction somehow doesn't apply to this situation even though the characters gave us a timeframe for their actions.


Buddy, I don't think I have ever interacted with @MShadows on this forum besides today, just now. They have no reason to fudge things for me. My guess is that they also translate raw scans, which is probably why @xmysticgohanx asked them to in the first place. I took the time to skim the article, but you simply can't apply this to anything you want. Time in some cases is a much more important element of a scene, much more important in certain other scenes than this one, regarding the speech. Also, if there's a chance that the raws were mistranslated to begin with, their argument falls apart as that is the evidence they presented to claim that scene transpired over the course of a single second. With that being said, even if we completely omit the dialogue, the time starting from him jumping in front of the attack, the Yonkou *noticing* what happened and the R5 getting out of the way and Law saving Zoro...There is no way to realistically try to cram all of that into a single second. My argument is fine without counting the dialogue. Their argument is 100% dependent on a play at words after the fact. The "Oda's words, not mine" argument fails if the scans were mistranslated to begin with.

EDIT: And again, one thing that is irrefutable, which ironically was also a struggle for people to accept, is that Zoro stopped the attack dead in its tracks. The feat is still amazing no matter how long he was in front of it for. We're literally arguing over a 1 to 2 second difference. I'd like to point out that it was *you *that started this argument in particular. Not sure that you remember that. I stated as a feat that Zoro was in front of Hakai for a few seconds, you made it your business *try *and correct that by bringing up that it was a single second. Apparently that makes a difference to you. Please don't act like you're above an argument that *you *started now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Dec 24, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> They actually linked a perfectly valid article that fully articulates, and even provides examples of the "talking is a free speech" trope that they referenced. Super disingenuous to dismiss the alternative position as an agenda when you clearly didn't even take the time to either look at or address the support they brought up for their side of the argument. The fact that you simply sought out another opinion (from someone that I'd guess you probably already knew would back your preconceived viewpoint) rather than trying to refute what was presented to you with facts and objectivity shows you probably don't have much to actually stand on to begin with. Even if you were right I'm not sure how you expect your opposition to see any validity in your side when you argue that way.
> 
> Earlier you spoke about how a debate is supposed to be. What you're doing now isn't it. Rather than stubbornly repeating your point and looking for people that will herd with you in the face of evidence that conflicts with your view you could, you know, maybe try to argue why this well established trope in fiction somehow doesn't apply to this situation even though the characters gave us a timeframe for their actions.


I assume this is your first time dealing with @Conxc . I won't say shit like "don't bother with this one" but at the very least you can see how disingenuous he is.

Even after @MShadows was called in to interpret the scans and he didn't get the interpretation he was looking for, he took the next best route, asking for Shadows' personal opinion of the scans as opposed to the actual interpretation and running with that.

It's just who he is


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

The usual guys that can’t read are…showing that they can’t read. Not surprising. Theyre still not even worth an @. And they can keep talking to themselves.


----------



## o0Shinthi0o (Dec 24, 2021)

Like @convict  said in Sanji vs Zoro thread , is applied to Zoro vs Luffy too i guess . By feat its mid diff but i think its lower end of high diff for now . (but insted of voting mid diff i will vote high diff tho  ) . What do u think ?

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Dec 24, 2021)

Conxc said:


> The usual guys that can’t read are…showing that they can’t read. Not surprising. Theyre still not even worth an @. And they can keep talking to themselves.





Conxc said:


> Thank you. *And in your opinion*, how much time passed there from the moment that Zoro jumps in front of it?





Conxc said:


> You'd think so, right?


True to form, bro


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

very odd fan-like behavior.  Nobody likes the clingy girls.


----------



## Lmao (Dec 24, 2021)

These guys really going to take MShadows word over the official translator for One Piece.


----------



## Conxc (Dec 24, 2021)

Lmao said:


> These guys really going to take MShadows word over the official translator for One Piece.


This is hilarious because depending on the argument, people will question “the official translator” and his translations, citing times that he has inaccurately translated certain chapter or parts of certain chapters…


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 25, 2021)

He was definitely talking about how dude asked for that person's opinion after he saw their translation of that panel was consistent with the official.



Conxc said:


> EDIT: And again, one thing that is irrefutable, which ironically was also a struggle for people to accept, is that Zoro stopped the attack dead in its tracks. The feat is still amazing no matter how long he was in front of it for. We're literally arguing over a 1 to 2 second difference. I'd like to point out that it was *you *that started this argument in particular. Not sure that you remember that. I stated as a feat that Zoro was in front of Hakai for a few seconds, you made it your business *try *and correct that by bringing up that it was a single second. Apparently that makes a difference to you. Please don't act like you're above an argument that *you *started now.


Literally everyone acknowledged it was an amazing feat. Nobody was trying to downplay it. Just pointing out how you kept trying to exaggerate everything Zoro did, with this being another example of that.

And I never acted like I was above the argument lol, the whole post was just saying that you should argue against it more objectively if you actually had a point.


Kroczilla said:


> I assume this is your first time dealing with @Conxc . I won't say shit like "don't bother with this one" but at the very least you can see how disingenuous he is.
> 
> Even after @MShadows was called in to interpret the scans and he didn't get the interpretation he was looking for, he took the next best route, asking for Shadows' personal opinion of the scans as opposed to the actual interpretation and running with that.
> 
> It's just who he is


I see


----------



## TheWiggian (Dec 25, 2021)

Holy shit the cope is real... The haters arguing about seconds because Zoro has the best block feat in teh story.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


----------



## Conxc (Dec 25, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> He was definitely talking about how dude asked for that person's opinion after he saw their translation of that panel was consistent with the official.


I mean, if we’re talking about me, I had no problem with shadows’ translation because it’s pretty obvious that more than and instant or second passed, an instant being even *less *than a second IIRC. Either way, the feat is the feat and we agree on that, but to say that it hasn’t been downplayed in this thread at least once is a bit dishonest. The feat has also been dissected many times and downplayed as “only for a second” numerous times as if it matters. A few times by your buddy Kroc here. And if you don’t k ow that he is everything that he claimed I was and then some, it’s because you’ve never been on the opposite side of a “debate” with him. He’s been exposed several times by several members who if you ask him, are “just as bad as me.” That’s just who *he *is.

Anyway Chip, it was a pleasure, but at this point I think we should agree to disagree as I don’t think we’ll agree on the time thing and we simply don’t place the same value on Zoro’s rooftop feats. Would love to debate about non-Zoro related topics.

Merry Christmas to all here who celebrates it.


----------



## TheWiggian (Dec 25, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I mean, if we’re talking about me, I had no problem with shadows’ translation because it’s pretty obvious that more than and instant or second passed, an instant being even *less *than a second IIRC. Either way, the feat is the feat and we agree on that, but to say that it hasn’t been downplayed in this thread at least once is a bit dishonest. The feat has also been dissected many times and downplayed as “only for a second” numerous times as if it matters. A few times by your buddy Kroc here. And if you don’t k ow that he is everything that he claimed I was and then some, it’s because you’ve never been on the opposite side of a “debate” with him. He’s been exposed several times by several members who if you ask him, are “just as bad as me.” That’s just who *he *is.
> 
> Anyway Chip, it was a pleasure, but at this point I think we should agree to disagree as I don’t think we’ll agree on the time thing and we simply don’t place the same value on Zoro’s rooftop feats. Would love to debate about non-Zoro related topics.
> 
> Merry Christmas to all here who celebrates it.



how do you know you're not talking to kroc there?

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## Tsukuyomi (Dec 25, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> how do you know you're not talking to kroc there?


@Kroczilla hacked @MShadows  account

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Conxc (Dec 25, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> how do you know you're not talking to kroc there?


Kroc can’t debate worth a lick lmfao.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Tsukuyomi (Dec 25, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Kroc can’t debate worth a lick lmfao.


You guys are meanies

Reactions: Funny 2 | Dislike 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Dec 25, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I mean, if we’re talking about me, I had no problem with shadows’ translation because it’s pretty obvious that more than and instant or second passed, an instant being even *less *than a second


 

Gona leave this here again. Also "it's pretty obvious" that everything that has occurred so far since the countdown has taken over 5 minutes, but that's fiction for you. 


Conxc said:


> The feat has also been dissected many times and downplayed as “only for a second” numerous times as if it matters


>Citing official translations
>Citing direct translation from the raws by @MShadows 
>Downplay 

Can't make this shit up 





Conxc said:


> And if you don’t k ow that he is everything that he claimed I was and then some, it’s because you’ve never been on the opposite side of a “debate” with him. He’s been exposed several times by several members who if you ask him, are “just as bad as me.” That’s just who *he *is.


*Yawns* your duplicity is showing. Also been on the opposite side with a shit ton of folks here. Some are great chaps, some are less savoury. You on the other hand are probably the more dishonest of the bunch which I think was pretty clear from how apparently personal opinions now >>>> WoG coz you feel your fave isn't getting "his dues". It's why for you merely pointing out facts = a downplay.



Conxc said:


> Kroc can’t debate worth a lick lmfao.


My vocabulary extends beyond spamming "Lanji Family" unlike a certain special person i know

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## Chip Skylark (Dec 25, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Gona leave this here again. Also "it's pretty obvious" that everything that has occurred so far since the countdown has taken over 5 minutes, but that's fiction for you.


To be fair, Momo is holding the island back which is extending the timeframe.

But you're absolutely right about everything else. As mentioned before these characters have been demonstrating incredibly fast combat speeds since pre-skip, and the dialogue doesn't take away from that. The fact that we're talking about a move that was too fast for even the Rooftop 5 to avoid should, in itself, show how fast everything was going.


Conxc said:


> I mean, if we’re talking about me, I had no problem with shadows’ translation because it’s pretty obvious that more than and instant or second passed, an instant being even *less *than a second IIRC. Either way, the feat is the feat and we agree on that, but to say that it hasn’t been downplayed in this thread at least once is a bit dishonest. The feat has also been dissected many times and downplayed as “only for a second” numerous times as if it matters. A few times by your buddy Kroc here. And if you don’t k ow that he is everything that he claimed I was and then some, it’s because you’ve never been on the opposite side of a “debate” with him. He’s been exposed several times by several members who if you ask him, are “just as bad as me.” That’s just who *he *is.
> 
> Anyway Chip, it was a pleasure, but at this point I think we should agree to disagree as I don’t think we’ll agree on the time thing and we simply don’t place the same value on Zoro’s rooftop feats. Would love to debate about non-Zoro related topics.
> 
> Merry Christmas to all here who celebrates it.


I'm still new here idk most people   

I'm not the type that likes to make generalizations about people anyways.

Merry Christmas


----------



## Conxc (Dec 25, 2021)

Chip Skylark said:


> To be fair, Momo is holding the island back which is extending the timeframe.
> 
> But you're absolutely right about everything else. As mentioned before these characters have been demonstrating incredibly fast combat speeds since pre-skip, and the dialogue doesn't take away from that. The fact that we're talking about a move that was too fast for even the Rooftop 5 to avoid should, in itself, show how fast everything was going.
> 
> ...


That’s good. Eventually you’ll reach the point where you’ll see some of this guy’s arguments for yourself and you’ll think back to this. One thing to know, he’s one of my biggest fans here apparently. Believe me, I’m not all that but him and one of the other ones are…pretty dedicated.  anyways, I look forward to future debates man.


----------



## Eustathios (Dec 25, 2021)

Luffy high diffs Zoro

Zoro high diffs Sanji

Sometimes it's a bit more, sometimes a bit less, but that's where it's rounded out to for ~1000 chapters. Yet people are still debating about this stuff.

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 25, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Luffy high diffs Zoro
> 
> Zoro high diffs Sanji
> 
> Sometimes it's a bit more, sometimes a bit less, but that's where it's rounded out to for ~1000 chapters. Yet people are still debating about this stuff.


By feats it might be more or less but I think if Oda made it happen it would always pan out as a solid high diff fight.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------

