# Ryuma VS Primebeard



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 12, 2022)

Some members of a certain fanbase seem to think Ryuma is PK level. I've left the voter names open so I don't need to spell out which fanbase that is. What do the rest of you think?

Does Ryuma's unconfirmed WSM title plus "Sword God" epithet/nickname stack up to Primebeard's confirmed WSM title in a era with contenders like Roger and Prime Garp? Or is the word "God" in his nickname an exaggeration like Enel's and God Usopp's?

Is Ryuma keeping Wano outside the control of the WG like young Oden, young Kaidou and their predecessors managed to do, more impressive than we thought? If it is shouldn't Ryuma have been praised for defeating something more impressive than a dragon?


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 12, 2022)

To be honest, we don't even know if Ryuuma was stronger than Mihawk.

He gets placed on an insane pedestal because he was the strongest man in the world during his Era; but we have no reference for what his era was like. It would be very interesting if he occupied the same period as Joy Boy and Imu.

I'd wager he probably gives Primebeard a much tougher time than Oden would, but I'm still rolling with Pops.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 12 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | GODA 1


----------



## o0Shinthi0o (Mar 12, 2022)

He should be strong but giving him benefits of the doubt over PK / WB is not happening until we get solid reason to do so .

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 12, 2022)

I agree. None of Ryuma's portrayal conclusively puts him above Mihawk. Primebeard, Roger, and Mihawk all had the highest grade weapons. Yet Ryuma only had a weapon that reached the second highest grade after it raised by one rank through blackening. Almost as if you have to the earn the right and access to the highest grade weapons. His claim to fame feat of slaying a dragon, a Punk Hazard Zoro level feat, still gets brought up to prop him like he slayed an actual top tier . Here's an earlier post of mine about about how Ryuma would fare against Shanks.



Heart Over Blade said:


> The title "god" isn't all that meaningful in gauging someone's strength. Enel was the god of skypeia and he got his ass kicked by preskip Luffy. Lunarians were also gods yet they were wiped out in a world of mortals. They were gods thanks to the power they wielded. Yet, the "god" of a weak era or a weak island can easily be surpassed by mortals. Unless you're an actual god, which Ryuma is not, then you're still mortal like everyone else. If Ryuuma is anywhere close to a god he should have better feats to brag about and be known for than slaying a dragon. He must have done great things to be considered WSM/WSS yet killing a dragon is the highlight feat of his career? Honestly expected much more from zombie Ryuma because even if he doesn't have the skills he had in life, his body conditioning should give him raw strength and reflexes comparable to that of top tiers.
> 
> It can go either way, but Shanks is more proven than featless Ryuma so unless Ryuma gets some real feats or is compared favorably against other top tiers than Shanks takes this for now. Also, Ryuma's titles aren't even confirmed. His titles are in a worse position than when Kaidou was the rumoured WSC because at least Kaidou's title had gained validation far and wide from multiple people , before it showed up in a databook. One guy from Wano calling Ryuma of Wano the WSM isn't exactly reassuring.





Mihawk said:


> He gets placed on an insane pedestal *because he was the strongest man in the world during his Era*


I don't think that's the reason though.  People just weren't satisfied with Mihawk being Zoro's end goal and wanted something better for their boy. Ryuma's the best thing to cling to because his power level wasn't revealed.



Mihawk said:


> It would be very interesting if he occupied the same period as Joy Boy and Imu.


I feel like if Oda wanted to put Ryuma on their level he'd put him in their era as Joy Boy's rival, like Oda did with Roger and WB. Ryuma would then be someone the other top tiers of the current era aspire to be like Joy boy is. That Mihawk the current WSS doesn't aspire to surpass Ryuma's feats or speak of him at all doesn't give the impression that Ryuma is superior. Roger's dead and people still strive to be like or surpass his feats. Joy Boy's dead for centuries and King and Kaidou both wished he was Joy Boy.

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## DeVision (Mar 12, 2022)

@Gledinius what do you have to say on this topic?


----------



## Gledania (Mar 12, 2022)

DeVision said:


> @Gledinius what do you have to say on this topic?



Yes

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## DeVision (Mar 12, 2022)

Gledinius said:


> Yes



I knew it!

Anyways. WB > Ryuma
Biggest known Ryuma feat was slaying a dragon. Something Punk Hazard Zoro did.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Mar 12, 2022)

Primebeard for now, until we see more of Ryuma's backstory and feats.

Though I still think there is a decent chance of Ryuma being stronger. I would not be surprised if Joyboy and Ryuma end up being stronger than Primebeard and Roger.


----------



## Marciano (Mar 12, 2022)

Luffy --> Roger (Newgate) --> Joy Boy
Zoro --> Mihawk --> Ryuma

Newgate is stuff for Luffy.
Mihawk --> Ryuma --> Zoro --> Newgate --> Joy Boy --> Luffy


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 12, 2022)

Ryuuma's hype conclusively places him among the ranks of the Yonko. Primebeard is/was likely the strongest of his peers. He ought to take this.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 12, 2022)

Ryuma's hype of single handedly scaring off the WG is still unrivaled. WB was still getting pursued by the Marines and so were his men.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 12, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Ryuma's hype of single handedly scaring off the WG is still unrivaled. WB was still getting pursued by the Marines and so were his men.


Kaido's presence in Wano is singlehandedly scaring off the WG, and I think we can all agree that Primebeard was stronger.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 12, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Kaido's presence in Wano is singlehandedly scaring off the WG, and I think we can all agree that Primebeard was stronger.


Young Kaido, young Oden, and their predecessors have all kept the WG from taking over Wano. It probably had more to do with how difficult it is to bring a fleet to Wano.


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 12, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Kaido's presence in Wano is singlehandedly scaring off the WG, and I think we can all agree that Primebeard was stronger.


Their reluctance to enter Wano is a direct consequence of Ryuma's legend. The WG (Sakazuki) is still afraid of the samurai. I guess you could consider them not being able to touch Ace or King similar hype for the Yonkou, I don't know.

Reactions: Winner 3


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 12, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Their reluctance to enter Wano is a direct consequence of Ryuma's legend. The WG (Sakazuki) is still afraid of the samurai. I guess you could consider them not being able to touch Ace or King similar hype for the Yonkou, I don't know.


The WG know the truth about Wano. They know that the samurais have been defeated for over 20 years. They have a fleet right at Wano's borders. Yet they won't go in because Kaido is there. They've stated that explicitly. Heck Orochi stated it himself. Kaido is enough of a deterrence to the WG acting against Wano.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 12, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Young Kaido, young Oden, and their predecessors have all kept the WG from taking over Wano. It probably had more to do with how difficult it is to bring a fleet to Wano.


I personally think the difficulty of getting to Wano is actually a factor. But like I said, I think placing a Yonko in such a territory makes it an automatic no-go area for the WG similar to WCI.


----------



## Perrin (Mar 12, 2022)

If Whitebeard called Oden brother,
He’d call Ryuma daddy

Reactions: Funny 7 | Winner 3


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 12, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Ryuma's hype of single handedly scaring off the WG is still unrivaled. WB was still getting pursued by the Marines and so were his men.



The Government tends to overreact to that sort of thing. 

Primebeard didn't want the smoke with Wano while young Kaido was there...but we know it had nothing to do with strength, because Marco explained to Ace that WB didn't want to suffer casualties. 

Sakazuki wanted to avoid a confrontation with Wano due to the Samurai and other known or unknown elements (even though Borsalino wanted all the smoke). Later on, we find out the "Samurai" are strong but nowhere near as strong as what Akainu implied them to be, with Kaido and crew being the real powerhouse there. 

I'm pretty sure we'll get some reaction out of the Government when we get to the Elbaf arc, regarding the Giants and why they're an independent nation. 

Oda has a habit of making the Gorosei and the other higher ups within the establishment shit their pants for hype. Sengoku was so apprehensive of Oldbeard's power, he summoned/gathered the entire Navy and Shichibukai; even though half of the military strength they had would have been sufficient to arguably win the War. 

List goes on, but Ryuuma's hype can't be directly scaled to WB. We have no idea what the WG was back in that era either.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Neutral 1


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 12, 2022)

Perrin said:


> If Whitebeard called Oden brother,
> He’d call Ryuma daddy


I think you're joking right?
If not, it probably had more to do with Oden's age relative to WB's. Kind of weird to call someone near your age your son. Oden was a subordinate to WB like everyone else. Not like they were close in strength when Oden became his "brother". Luffy and Ace didn't stop being brothers when Ace was on par with Jinbei and Luffy was still a scrub in East Blue.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Perrin (Mar 12, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> I think you're joking right?
> If not, it probably had more to do with Oden's age relative to WB's. Kind of weird to call someone near your age your son. Oden was a subordinate to WB like everyone else. Not like they were close in strength when Oden became his "brother".


Kind of weird to call any grown man with no genetic connection to you your son.
For all we know Ryuma actually is Whitebeards dad and toki sent baby Ed into the future.

Reactions: Funny 4


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 12, 2022)

14-1 in WB's favor right now but I expect the gap will close once the Zoro fans come in and cast their unbiased votes for Ryuma



Perrin said:


> Kind of weird to call any grown man with no genetic connection to you your son.


But not as weird as calling a grown man your age with no genetic connection your son. So brother it is.


Perrin said:


> For all we know Ryuma actually is Whitebeards dad and toki sent baby Ed into the future.


If we ignore their different last names and looking nothing alike, not even the same race.


----------



## Orca (Mar 12, 2022)

Its not impossible for Ryuma to be that strong but as others have said, as it is we don’t even know if he was even stronger than the Yonko/Mihawk.

Since this is the golden age of piracy and WB ruled this age as the king of the seas for 20 years, makes sense he’d get the benefit of the doubt over Ryuma.

Reactions: Neutral 1


----------



## Ludi (Mar 12, 2022)

Uncertain about this one really, both have "the best hype" basically


----------



## Strobacaxi (Mar 12, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> If not, it probably had more to do with Oden's age relative to WB's. Kind of weird to call someone near your age your son.


Then he'd call Ryuuma great-great-great-grandaddy


----------



## Strobacaxi (Mar 12, 2022)

They were both WSM at their own times

I would assume WB is a bit stronger since he lived in a more dangerous era tho



Heart Over Blade said:


> I don't think that's the reason though.  People just weren't satisfied with Mihawk being Zoro's end goal and wanted something better for their boy. Ryuma's the best thing to cling to because his power level wasn't revealed.


- WSM of his time
- WSS of his time
- Called a sword god due to his skills
- One in 2 characters in the whole story to perma blacken his blade
- Single handedly stopped thousands of pirates from pillaging his country
- So powerful the WG is still afraid to invade Wano 400 years after his death

pEoPlE sAy He'S sTrOnG jUsT To WaNk ZoRo

- SNIP -

Reactions: Neutral 1 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Dead Precedence (Mar 12, 2022)

Ryuma needs more feats but his hype is pretty big. His floor at the least is Oden, unless anyone wants to try and say that Oden is stronger let's see if anyone wants to die on that hill, and Oden is considered to be a bonafide top tier according to Kaido. It isn't certain yeah that he's stronger than Mihawk as his blade is a grade lower, however you can argue his epithet is more impressive "Sword God" versus "World's Strongest Swordsman".  I wouldn't be surprised if Ryuma being an "ancient" character ends up being broken as we all know with  Joyboy. Also I think one thing that should be mentioned is that being a former protaganist, albeit it being a short oneshot, I could t otally see Oda making him OP as fuck just cause of that he might have a soft spot for him. 

He might be the hardest top tier to scale and like people said before he can range from weaker than Mihawk and just barely stronger than Oden to on par or even stronger than Primebard.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Neutral 1


----------



## Chip Skylark (Mar 12, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> The Government tends to overreact to that sort of thing.
> 
> Primebeard didn't want the smoke with Wano while young Kaido was there...but we know it had nothing to do with strength, because Marco explained to Ace that WB didn't want to suffer casualties.
> 
> ...


Not an overreaction.

The only reason there would've been so many casualties in the first place is because the battle would've been that close between the two forces. This is substantiated both by the Ace novel, and WB himself scolding Ace for thinking they could just casually vanquish the man that even Oden couldn't defeat. The WBP wouldn't have believed it to be a dangerous endeavor if Wano wasn't subjugated by a tremendous strength, and WB's apprehension outright cited Kaido's strength.

Akainu's fear of the samurai was validated by X Drake when Hyogoro fought with the strength he regained through Queen's poison.

Again neglecting the factor of WB's illness which Sengoku was originally unaware of; among other things that I'm sure you're aware of.

It's absolutely true that Ryuma can't be scaled to WB because we have no idea what the WG was like in his era, but it's weak to dismiss it and everything else as overblown hype.

Primebeard wins without much room for doubt until Ryuma reveals more.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## Velocity (Mar 12, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> It would be very interesting if he occupied the same period as Joy Boy and Imu.


We actually know that Ryuma was alive 400 years ago, so he didn't.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## Gledania (Mar 12, 2022)

Where is the "We don't know" option ?

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Mar 12, 2022)

Gledinius said:


> Where is the "We don't know" option ?


There is the "choose not to vote" option too.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Creative 1


----------



## Gledania (Mar 12, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> There is the "choose not to vote" option too.



We need our voice to be represented.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Friendly 1


----------



## Perrin (Mar 12, 2022)

Part of it depends on which DF Ryuma is revealed to have had as well i guess.


----------



## Velocity (Mar 12, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Part of it depends on which DF Ryuma is revealed to have had as well i guess.


I think swordsmen in general don't have one. Roger, Shanks, Mihawk, Zoro, Vista...


----------



## Perrin (Mar 12, 2022)

Velocity said:


> I think swordsmen in general don't have one. Roger, Shanks, Mihawk, Zoro, Vista...


Shiryu
Fuji
Law
Brooke
Shiki

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 12, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Not an overreaction.
> 
> The only reason there would've been so many casualties in the first place is because the battle would've been that close between the two forces. This is substantiated both by the Ace novel, and WB himself scolding Ace for thinking they could just casually vanquish the man that even Oden couldn't defeat. The WBP wouldn't have believed it to be a dangerous endeavor if Wano wasn't subjugated by a tremendous strength, and WB's apprehension outright cited Kaido's strength.


By the time he scolded Ace, that was when Kaido was already a Yonko and established his hold on Wano.

I was talking about the time when Oden was still alive, and WB didn’t go there while he was in his prime (same with Roger). It’s possible the same logic applies, as I brought it up to say that it wasn’t simply due to  power levels, and that it doesn’t WB was scared of young Kaido, but rather the casualties he may have suffered.


Chip Skylark said:


> Akainu's fear of the samurai was validated by X Drake when Hyogoro fought with the strength he regained through Queen's poison.


Doubtful.

Hyogoro being called a strong samurai by Drake at the time was a massive meme. If anything, it further made Akainu’s fears or concerns, even more laughable.


Chip Skylark said:


> Again neglecting the factor of WB's illness which Sengoku was originally unaware of; among other things that I'm sure you're aware of.


Yeah he thought he had the power to destroy the world. 


Chip Skylark said:


> It's absolutely true that Ryuma can't be scaled to WB because we have no idea what the WG was like in his era,


Agreed.


Chip Skylark said:


> but it's weak to dismiss it and everything else as overblown hype.


Well there’s a difference between hyperbole and reality. There are also generalities.

Hyperbole= Oldbeard has the power to destroy the world.

Reality= He couldn’t.

Generality= Wano has many powerful Samurai and “strong” warriors.

Reality= Strong relative to who and what?

Another example is Sengoku calling Hancock “strong”. That’s decent hype considering it comes from him, but again it’s vague because what is the comparison here?

The premise of the discussion was that Ryuuma was so strong his name alone caused the WG to stay away from Wano. But if the Government was similarly apprehensive of WB’s power, then it doesn’t tell us too much about this comparison, if at all.


Chip Skylark said:


> Primebeard wins without much room for doubt until Ryuma reveals more.


Agreed.


----------



## Velocity (Mar 12, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Shiryu
> Fuji
> Law
> Brooke
> Shiki


None of them count as real swordsmen, of course, because they lack "purity". A swordsman must, one assumes, rely only on their Haki and their sword.


----------



## Inferno Jewls (Mar 12, 2022)

Sakazuki wasn't alive 400 years ago, reason why Ryuma was feared amongst the WG 

Jokes aside I do think Ryuma is powerful but I wouldn't place him over primebeard because that would mean he's more powerful than Sakazuki which is impossible. 

Jokes aside again, Ryuma is powerful but primebeard is stronger; though we don't know for sure, I'd put Ryuma just based off hype at least stronger than Oden.

Reactions: Funny 4


----------



## Perrin (Mar 12, 2022)

Velocity said:


> None of them count as real swordsmen, of course, because they lack "purity". A swordsman must, one assumes, rely only on their Haki and their sword.


Daz bones
Big Mom
King
Cracker
Jack


----------



## Inferno Jewls (Mar 12, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Daz bones
> Big Mom
> King
> Cracker
> Jack


I think you forgot to mention kinemon whom possesses the most powerful fruit in one piece


----------



## Perrin (Mar 12, 2022)

Inferno Jewls said:


> I think you forgot to mention kinemon whom possesses the most powerful fruit in one piece


I’m saving him for the 6th group of five swordsmen reply

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Chip Skylark (Mar 12, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> By the time he scolded Ace, that was when Kaido was already a Yonko and established his hold on Wano.
> 
> I was talking about the time when Oden was still alive, and WB didn’t go there while he was in his prime (same with Roger). It’s possible the same logic applies, as I brought it up to say that it wasn’t simply due to  power levels, and that it doesn’t WB was scared of young Kaido, but rather the casualties he may have suffered.


WB cited Kaido's feat of defeating Oden for his apprehension. Not this presumed increase in strength and influence that you're arguing here. So it's kinda arbitrary to cite Kaido's Yonko status as one of the predominant reasons for their concerns when that was never brought up when they were actually addressing the reasons for their concerns.

Neither WB or Roger knew about Wano's plight when Oden was alive. Which is why they didn't go to aid him. Also weird to separate the fear of casualties from power levels since, as I said before, Kaido's forces would need to be tremendously powerful relative to the WBP to inspire that fear in the first place.


Mihawk said:


> Doubtful.
> 
> Hyogoro being called a strong samurai by Drake at the time was a massive meme. If anything, it further made Akainu’s fears or concerns, even more laughable.


Feel you outright dismiss information far too easily. X Drake's position in both the story and his organization should make him plenty credible as far as this topic is concerned. Rather than mocking, and ignoring the information it should be used to contextualize Akainu's fears in a way that helps us understand why that level of strength would be a genuine concern preventing the WG from subjugating Wano.

Otherwise you just end up throwing away perfectly good info in some effort to try and fit everything into a theory you already conceived rather than trying to establish a theory based on everything we've been provided.


Mihawk said:


> Yeah he thought he had the power to destroy the world.


That's never prevented people from rivaling WB before. No reason it should be an excuse to justify Sengoku's fear while somehow maintaining a stance that conflicts with his word. That power wasn't independent of WB's ability as a fighter.

But that's besides the point which is that you tried to brush off Sengoku's statement as a pure hype tool while ignoring the context behind the situation. Rather than acknowledging things like WB's illness, your argument acted like Sengoku's fears were just overblown despite there being factors outside of Sengoku's expectations that contributed to the outcome. Basically used the outcome of the battle to support your point while disregarding the reasons for the outcome.

Among other discrepancies in your argument like the fact that the WBP actually succeeded in their goal of freeing Ace despite their handicap which more than justifies Sengoku's fears and preparations. Naturally it isn't true that Sengoku could've won with half of his forces when the WBP managed to free Ace while against the full extent of his forces.


Mihawk said:


> Well there’s a difference between hyperbole and reality. There are also generalities.
> 
> Hyperbole= Oldbeard has the power to destroy the world.
> 
> ...


Of course I don't disagree with the entire premise. Just how you formed some of your conclusions. There's a huge difference between scrutinizing a vague statement and brushing it off as simply overblown hype because you don't agree with it. I agree that Ryuma's hype needs a bit more context behind it, but I'm not exactly willing to act like the government exaggerates their concerns for the sake of hype.


----------



## Ludi (Mar 12, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> There is the "choose not to vote" option too.


Then you don't know how many chose this though


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Mar 12, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Then you don't know how many chose this though


Fair enough


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 12, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> WB cited Kaido's feat of defeating Oden for his apprehension. Not this presumed increase in strength and influence that you're arguing here. So it's kinda arbitrary to cite Kaido's Yonko status as one of the predominant reasons for their concerns when that was never brought up when they were actually addressing the reasons for their concerns.


I'm not arguing anything, I'm stating a fact. Kaido was a Yonko by the time Oldbeard scolded Ace for thinking of raiding Wano.

Primebeard steered clear of Wano (and the Navy) during the Oden flashback.

Yes WB cited Kaido's feat of defeating Oden for his apprehension...decades after Oden was actually defeated, and long after WB was in his prime. This was the Ace era. Decades later, as Kaido and co. continued to grow in strength.


Chip Skylark said:


> Neither WB or Roger knew about Wano's plight when Oden was alive. Which is why they didn't go to aid him.


Exactly.

He also wouldn't endanger his men for the sake of seeking revenge for a friend who was already long dead, unless it was a son like Ace who was still alive.


Chip Skylark said:


> Also weird to separate the fear of casualties from power levels since, as I said before, Kaido's forces would need to be tremendously powerful relative to the WBP to inspire that fear in the first place.


Yes there would be casualties no doubt, if they had gone to Wano during the Ace Era; as it would be a confrontation between 2 Yonko forces (assuming WB knows). I'm not disagreeing with that.


Chip Skylark said:


> Feel you outright dismiss information far too easily. X Drake's position in both the story and his organization should make him plenty credible as far as this topic is concerned.


These statements are made based on reputation. I'm sure you can agree that Sengoku spoke of WB, mainly due to this reputation. The same goes for the Samurai on Wano.

Also, why would Drake's position or remark on Hyogoro or the Samurai's strength have anything to do with Akainu's concerns? Remember this: Akainu said there was "an unknown military force on Wano", to which Borsalino responded by saying: "The Samurai, you mean?" If the Fleet Admiral was referring to the Beast Pirates and Kaido, his concerns would be justified and Drake's statement has nothing to do with that.

As for the Samurai; Drake has been with the Beast Pirates for 2 years, while most of the Samurai were either working for Orochi or downtrodden. He's never seen the peak of the Samurai. How would he know if Hyogoro is a worthy baseline for their history? Why is his statement credible, yet Sengoku's numerous statements aren't, regarding Whitebeard's? Did Sengoku not know WB prior to old age? Can they not be "contextualised" as well?

You see how context works? Drake's statement of the samurai is no different from Sengoku calling Hancock "strong". Although in Hancock's case, getting Sengoku's praise is quit impressive; It is still a generality, that while constitutes as hype, can't be directly compared to anything else.




Chip Skylark said:


> Rather than mocking, and ignoring the information it should be used to contextualize Akainu's fears in a way that helps us understand why that level of strength would be a genuine concern preventing the WG from subjugating Wano.


It was widely mocked, due to the caliber of fighters falling short of expectation. Whether those expectations are subjective or not, are a different discussion.

It's a genuine concern because Akainu had no clear intel or insight on the military strength of Wano. He assumed that it was an unknown force, implied to be the Samurai, when in fact, it was Kaido + Beast Pirates they should have been weary of, as they would be the main factor preventing the WG's subjugation of Wano. If his assumption was based on the fact that they would be acting against a potential Yonko alliance since Big Mom had just started to contact Kaido (and which Akainu _later _seemed to be aware of the alliance considering he said the alliance between Rocks would bring the "rains of disaster"), his concerns would be wholly justified, and properly contextualised. However, given what we know about the Samurai in fact, how can we say his hype of them was justified, if his concerns were solely confined to them as a faction? It would be one thing if Oden was still around and the Nine Scabbards weren't being oppressed by Kaido, or if the military force Akainu was referring to included the potential Yonko crews. The Samurai as a faction on their own, including the likes of Hyogoro, have done little to justify such a reaction.

TL;DR: Akainu was right to be concerned about Wano due to the activities of Kaido and later on, Big Mom; his reasoning for the Samurai being the main deterrent or reason for concern however, is questionable at best.

Hyogoro does little to justify those concerns on their own, given that he promptly died after said enhancement. When interpreted with proper context, it can be said that Drake made the comment out of respect for Hyogoro's spirit and courage.

Also, as I said earlier; "strong" is a very broad term. Drake calling Hyogoro strong does little in correlation to Akainu's fears.


Chip Skylark said:


> Otherwise you just end up throwing away *perfectly good info* in some effort to try and fit everything into a theory you already conceived rather than trying to establish a theory* based on everything we've been provided.*


Perfectly good info and going by everything we've been provided would actually include gauging the overall strength of the Samurai as a faction and their performance, as well as the other potential factions on the island, and _if _the Navy was made aware of their existence, and what they would have to offer under the circumstances.


Chip Skylark said:


> That's never prevented people from rivaling WB before.


Only Roger was shown to have been able to rival WB in his prime.

The Yonko were legitimate rivals to Oldbeard though, yes. And if you agree that it's never prevented individuals and Yonko crews from rivalling Whitebeard and his boys before; then I'm sure you can agree that it certainly didn't prevent the Government's forces from beating them either.


Chip Skylark said:


> No reason it should be an excuse to justify Sengoku's fear while somehow maintaining a stance that conflicts with his word. That power wasn't independent of WB's ability as a fighter.


I'm actually confused. So now you're arguing there's no excuse for justifying Sengoku's fears (even though he was facing freaking Whitebeard), but that Akainu's fears are justified according to you, because of Drake and Hyogoro?. You''re also saying that the stance I've maintained conflicts with his words...how so?

So his power to destroy the world is a part of his ability as a fighter, yes.

Sengoku and co. also had the objective of protecting the Headquarters, and the fact that WB's powers had the potential of destroying the island also helps to justify that fear. However, it ultimately didn't happen.


Chip Skylark said:


> But that's besides the point which is that you tried to brush off Sengoku's statement as a pure hype tool while ignoring the context behind the situation. Rather than acknowledging things like WB's illness, your argument acted like Sengoku's fears were just overblown despite there being factors outside of Sengoku's expectations that contributed to the outcome. Basically used the outcome of the battle to support your point while disregarding the reasons for the outcome.


Sengoku was apprehensive of WB's powers which were capable of sinking the Headquarters...hence the preparations he made to counter him and his crew, including massive plated walls which were capable of absorbing his quakes; and altering the landscape through the Admirals while utilising Pacifista to cut off the allies.

His fears weren't overblown, but they were assuaged when the island remained and WB died, due to a combination of multiple factors including illness. I can acknowledge that. He was no longer the World's Strongest Man by the time he fought the Admirals? Sure, I can perhaps concede and acknowledge that too.

What you have to acknowledge is that "context behind the situation" includes the ultimate outcome of the War, which you repeatedly ignore. When a relatively healthy WB who hadn't yet suffered heart attacks, and who wasn't stabbed by Squardo yet attempted to sink the entire island with said "world destroying power", what happened? Yeah...Kuzan saved the day by easily negating his tsunamis without breaking a sweat. Yet this is ignored 

The outcome of the battle as proof, is far more reliable than any concern at the outset, before the battle actually happens.

Let's say that the Navy were in fact concerned with the Samurai and no one else...of course, we are disregarding the Rocks Alliance the presence of the Raid group in this scenario, since the Samurai are mentioned specifically by Akainu. Hypothetically speaking, if the Navy went on to steamroll and completely dominate the Samurai faction, would you not agree that Akainu's "fears" or concerns were simply mere hype by the author?



Chip Skylark said:


> Among other discrepancies in your argument like the fact that the WBP actually succeeded in their goal of freeing Ace despite their handicap which more than justifies Sengoku's fears and preparations.



And if it wasn't for Luffy's stroke of luck (not to mention status as the main character) and the Impel Down crew, they wouldn't have freed Ace...
Also, the WBP ultimately did indeed fail in their objective, as Akainu ended up executing Ace regardless  So the mission resulted in a failure, unfortunately.



Chip Skylark said:


> Naturally it isn't true that Sengoku could've won with half of his forces when the WBP managed to free Ace while against the full extent of his forces.


Refer to the above.

Also, this has nothing to do with the military forces assembled on both sides. Freeing Ace (before subsequently losing him anyways) against those full forces, is not indicative of victory over Navy HQ + Shichibukai unless victory is _defined _by rescue and retreat (in which case, it is simply a rescue mission and not wiping out the forces gathered there).



Chip Skylark said:


> Of course I don't disagree with the entire premise. Just how you formed some of your conclusions. There's a huge difference between scrutinizing a vague statement and brushing it off as simply overblown hype because you don't agree with it. I agree that Ryuma's hype needs a bit more context behind it, but I'm not exactly willing to act like the government exaggerates their concerns for the sake of hype.



Fair enough dude. I see where you're coming from, and I respect your opinion. You are fully entitled to it.

I'll say that your points have certainly encouraged me to concede some of my points in favour of being more flexible to change, but yeah.


----------



## ShadoLord (Mar 12, 2022)

same level basically

Ryuma is called the God of Swords which nobody in the current era has been called yet. That puts him above Shanks or Mihawk.


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 12, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> pEoPlE sAy He'S sTrOnG jUsT To WaNk ZoRo
> 
> What a fucking retard lol


None of what you said makes him any more than Yonkou level, and some of his is wank is debatable.

Yet it's only the Zoro fans like yourself wanking him to PK level and beyond. Lack of votes for Ryuma from non-Zoro fans speaks for itself. Get back to me when that stops being the case.

Way to prove my point, dumbass.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 12, 2022)

Zoro said:


> same level basically
> 
> Ryuma is called the *God of Swords* which nobody in the current era has been called yet. That puts him above Shanks or Mihawk.


It's a title that seemingly exists within Wano alone. Not sure that can reasonably be used to scale him against characters in the wider verse


----------



## Chip Skylark (Mar 12, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> I'm not arguing anything, I'm stating a fact. Kaido was a Yonko by the time Oldbeard scolded Ace for thinking of raiding Wano.
> 
> Primebeard steered clear of Wano (and the Navy) during the Oden flashback.
> 
> *Yes WB cited Kaido's feat of defeating Oden for his apprehension...decades after Oden was actually defeated, and long after WB was in his prime. This was the Ace era. Decades later, as Kaido and co. continued to grow in strength.*


Seems pretty clear that you're pointing out how Kaido was a Yonko to argue that WB's apprehension accounted for more than what he actually said. Judging by what you're saying here you definitely didn't just point out that fact for the sake of it. What would be the point of you saying that Kaido was a Yonko that had grown in strength, if not to argue that WB was more worried about his growth as opposed to just the level of strength he needed to defeat Oden?



Mihawk said:


> These statements are made based on reputation. I'm sure you can agree that Sengoku spoke of WB, mainly due to this reputation. The same goes for the Samurai on Wano.
> 
> Also, why would Drake's position or remark on Hyogoro or the Samurai's strength have anything to do with Akainu's concerns? Remember this: Akainu said there was "an unknown military force on Wano", to which Borsalino responded by saying: "The Samurai, you mean?" If the Fleet Admiral was referring to the Beast Pirates and Kaido, his concerns would be justified and Drake's statement has nothing to do with that.
> 
> ...


I never said Sengoku's statements aren't credible. If anything, I feel like my argument depends heavily on Sengoku's statements. Not sure where you got that from. If this is about Sengoku's statement about WB being the strongest even in his old age then I've already explained that my issue with that was Sengoku's ignorance of WB's illness. Even Marco, one of WB's closest subordinates, wasn't aware of how much WB's illness had progressed so I wouldn't expect Sengoku to have known before the war.

Reputation isn't misleading for the most part. Most things in One Piece are based on reputation. X Drake's experience on Wano allowed him an exclusive insight of Wano's samurai. His position in the Navy allowed him detailed knowledge on his organizations strength. While Hyo was exceptional I don't think it's a stretch for Drake to be aware that he wasn't a complete outlier. Drake should also be familiar with, to a certain extent, what the Navy can and can't handle. Which is why his position helps validate Akainu's fears.



Mihawk said:


> It was widely mocked, due to the caliber of fighters falling short of expectation. Whether those expectations are subjective or not, are a different discussion.
> 
> It's a genuine concern because Akainu had no clear intel or insight on the military strength of Wano. He assumed that it was an unknown force, implied to be the Samurai, when in fact, it was Kaido + Beast Pirates they should have been weary of, as they would be the main factor preventing the WG's subjugation of Wano. If his assumption was based on the fact that they would be acting against a potential Yonko alliance since Big Mom had just started to contact Kaido (and which Akainu _later _seemed to be aware of the alliance considering he said the alliance between Rocks would bring the "rains of disaster"), his concerns would be wholly justified, and properly contextualised. However, given what we know about the Samurai in fact, how can we say his hype of them was justified, if his concerns were solely confined to them as a faction? It would be one thing if Oden was still around and the Nine Scabbards weren't being oppressed by Kaido, or if the military force Akainu was referring to included the potential Yonko crews. The Samurai as a faction on their own, including the likes of Hyogoro, have done little to justify such a reaction.
> 
> ...


Hyogoro never died?

Originally your claim was that the Samurai didn't live up to the strength that Akainu feared. Was never my intent to argue the Samurai's imprisonment. Just their strength.

In context of the situation Akainu didn't need to worry about the Samurai, but in terms of their actual strength Hyo did demonstrate a frightful level of ability that had even Apoo and Drake in awe.


Mihawk said:


> Only Roger was shown to have been able to rival WB in his prime.
> 
> The Yonko were legitimate rivals to Oldbeard though, yes. And if you agree that it's never prevented individuals and Yonko crews from rivalling Whitebeard and his boys before; then I'm sure you can agree that it certainly didn't prevent the Government's forces from beating them either.


Can't deny the outcome of the war, but the influence of his illness explains that. Sengoku's fear gives plenty reason to doubt that the Navy would've been capable of achieving that victory against a fully healthy version of Oldbeard.


Mihawk said:


> I'm actually confused. So now you're arguing there's no excuse for justifying Sengoku's fears (even though he was facing freaking Whitebeard), but that Akainu's fears are justified according to you, because of Drake and Hyogoro?. You''re also saying that the stance I've maintained conflicts with his words...how so?
> 
> 
> So his power to destroy the world is a part of his ability as a fighter, yes.
> ...


Maybe I should've been more clear.

I meant that it's not an excuse to justify why WB would be an exception to Sengoku's fears. You tend to treat the statement as if it wouldn't apply to other Yonko despite acknowledging the various statements claiming that the Yonko rivaled WB. 

It's inconsistent to argue that Sengoku was right to fear WB while simultaneously arguing that he and the admirals are comparable to WB, or that Sengoku wouldn't similarly fear a confrontation against the other Yonko that were consistently said to be on WB's level.

Hence, "No reason it should be an excuse to justify Sengoku's fear *while somehow maintaining a stance that conflicts with his word*."

Sengoku's fear was that their forces would've been annihilated. Not just the island.


Mihawk said:


> Sengoku was apprehensive of WB's powers which were capable of sinking the Headquarters...hence the preparations he made to counter him and his crew, including massive plated walls which were capable of absorbing his quakes; and altering the landscape through the Admirals while utilising Pacifista to cut off the allies.
> 
> His fears weren't overblown, but they were assuaged when the island remained and WB died, due to a combination of multiple factors including illness. I can acknowledge that. He was no longer the World's Strongest Man by the time he fought the Admirals? Sure, I can perhaps concede and acknowledge that too.
> 
> ...


Preparations to defend the scaffolding, and surround WB's crew don't exactly prevent WB from sinking the island. Sengoku also outright said that he feared WB could wipe out their Navy forces, so don't know why you're trying to make it about the island.

WB was _never_ healthy during the war. Was emphasized that Squard was able to land his attack in the first place because WB was already severely handicapped because of his illness. It's the whole reason Croc called WB weak. The influence of his illness didn't start just after the stabbing or with the heart attacks. 

Also not ignoring the fact that Aokiji negating the tsusami's. Just not going to act like countering an opening move suggests a level of parity between the admirals and that version of WB. Not unlike how nobody, within reason, would argue that Yamato is comparable to Kaido because they matched each others Breath attacks and Bagua's.

I've said this a few times before, but you don't find it at least a little bit odd how easily you pass off Admiral feats as Yonko level compared to other characters who do the same, if not more? Aokiji stopping Sick WB's casual opener and having a brief skirmish with him where he makes no headway is enough to prove to you that they were comparable, but Luffy can split the skies and fight with Kaido evenly for an extended period of time yet you still doubt he's a solid top tier. That's weird. Especially when WB went on to pummel Akainu despite being sick, having only half a head, and being littered with injuries. Wouldn't say the "sneak attack" made Akainu more disadvantaged in that situation considering everything WB was suffering from...

Can't exactly rely on the outcome as proof when you've already acknowledged WB's handicaps going into the battle.


Mihawk said:


> Let's say that the Navy were in fact concerned with the Samurai and no one else...of course, we are disregarding the Rocks Alliance the presence of the Raid group in this scenario, since the Samurai are mentioned specifically by Akainu. Hypothetically speaking, if the Navy went on to steamroll and completely dominate the Samurai faction, would you not agree that Akainu's "fears" or concerns were simply mere hype by the author?


That's not what I'm arguing. I just disagree with the notion that Akainu's concerns over the samurai were laughable. They were only a part of his concern, but his caution of them was plenty valid.


Mihawk said:


> And if it wasn't for Luffy's stroke of luck (not to mention status as the main character) and the Impel Down crew, they wouldn't have freed Ace...
> Also, the WBP ultimately did indeed fail in their objective, as Akainu ended up executing Ace regardless  So the mission resulted in a failure, unfortunately.
> 
> 
> ...


The Impel Down crew only made up a small fraction of the participating fighters. Luffy himself was compared to an ant in a storm. If that alone were enough to turn the tides against the Navy's massive advantage in military size that should tell you they needed every last bit of what they brought.

The mission didn't fail through their own lack of ability. It wasn't a situation where Ace was cornered, and couldn't leave the island safely. He gave into Akainu's taunts, and wasted his allies efforts.

And the point was that despite WB's handicap his crew was still capable of achieving a partial win through their rescue of Ace. Of course old and sick WB couldn't fully realize Sengoku's fears, but it speaks volumes that he was still able to save Ace from the Navy. Unfortunate that he couldn't save Ace from himself, but that was still a win the pirates had over the Navy before Ace single-handedly threw it away.


Mihawk said:


> Fair enough dude. I see where you're coming from, and I respect your opinion. You are fully entitled to it.
> 
> I'll say that your points have certainly encouraged me to concede some of my points in favour of being more flexible to change, but yeah.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## jesusus (Mar 12, 2022)

This is shonen and Oda has shown he's a sucker for tropes so Ryuuma and Joyboy being stronger than even Roger and Base Primebeard would not surprise me with EoS power inflation.


----------



## Great Potato (Mar 12, 2022)

Whitebeard gets the benefit of the doubt for me.


----------



## Captain Quincy (Mar 12, 2022)

If this is MC Ryuma then he wins. Otherwise WB based off what we know so far.


----------



## MO (Mar 12, 2022)

Whitebeard easily. Ryuma is overrated. Wouldn't put him above any of the yonko let alone primebeard.


----------



## Van Basten (Mar 12, 2022)

I expect Ryuma to have been near PK level or straight up PK level. However, until we know more about him, his peers, and his era, I won’t put him over a literal PK level fighter like Primebeard. 

Live to hype another day, Ryumabros.



Kroczilla said:


> Kaido's presence in Wano is singlehandedly scaring off the WG, and I think we can all agree that Primebeard was stronger.


No, the infamy of the Samurai is. That’s what concerned Akainu.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 12, 2022)

Gods > Men

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## trance (Mar 12, 2022)

if i had to speculate, ryuma could be on WB's level but obviously, his known feats pale in comparison to even ppl below WB

so WB for now


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 12, 2022)

The Marines were willing to go to Whitebeard. The Marines are afraid of Wano because of Ryuma.

Ryuma wins.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Sablés (Mar 12, 2022)

Ryuma uses a sword. WB doesn't.
Ryuma has my vote.


----------



## Canute87 (Mar 12, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Some members of a certain fanbase seem to think Ryuma is PK level. I've left the voter names open so I don't need to spell out which fanbase that is. What do the rest of you think?
> 
> Does Ryuma's unconfirmed WSM title plus "Sword God" epithet/nickname stack up to Primebeard's confirmed WSM title in a era with contenders like Roger and Prime Garp? Or is the word "God" in his nickname an exaggeration like Enel's and God Usopp's?
> 
> Is Ryuma keeping Wano outside the control of the WG like young Oden, young Kaidou and their predecessors managed to do, more impressive than we thought? If it is shouldn't Ryuma have been praised for defeating something more impressive than a dragon?


who was his competition?


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 13, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Seems pretty clear that you're pointing out how Kaido was a Yonko to argue that WB's apprehension accounted for more than what he actually said. Judging by what you're saying here you definitely didn't just point out that fact for the sake of it. What would be the point of you saying that Kaido was a Yonko that had grown in strength, if not to argue that WB was more worried about his growth as opposed to just the level of strength he needed to defeat Oden?


Whitebeard didn't know the circumstances surrounding Oden's death; he wasn't there.

I brought it up to say that WB's concern over Wano and never going there was mostly due to the fact that he didn't know what forces were present, and also didn't want to endanger his sons for the sake of revenge. So it wasn't totally due to power levels.

Kaido and co. being a bonafide Yonko crew whom were present simply strengthens the validity of those concerns, since they would incur lots of casualties as you have also pointed out.

That's all.



Chip Skylark said:


> *I never said Sengoku's statements aren't credible*. If anything, I feel like my argument depends heavily on Sengoku's statements. Not sure where you got that from. If this is about Sengoku's statement about WB being the strongest even in his old age then I've already explained that my issue with that was Sengoku's ignorance of WB's illness. Even Marco, one of WB's closest subordinates, wasn't aware of how much WB's illness had progressed so I wouldn't expect Sengoku to have known before the war.


Okay; neither am I. Like you, I am arguing for the proper context.


Chip Skylark said:


> Reputation isn't misleading for the most part. Most things in One Piece are based on reputation. X Drake's experience on Wano allowed him an exclusive insight of Wano's samurai. His position in the Navy allowed him detailed knowledge on his organizations strength. While Hyo was exceptional I don't think it's a stretch for Drake to be aware that he wasn't a complete outlier. Drake should also be familiar with, to a certain extent, what the Navy can and can't handle. Which is why his position helps validate Akainu's fears.


It's not about Drake's standing within the organisation or his position that I'm arguing against. I'm talking the correlation of his statement that the Samurai are "strong", with Akainu's apprehension of the country.

Based on what we know about Hyogoro and his strength, nothing suggests that the Samurai would be a faction that the Navy "can't handle", if he is used as the standard of measurement.



Chip Skylark said:


> Hyogoro never died?


Oh my mistake then.


Chip Skylark said:


> Originally your claim was that the Samurai didn't live up to the strength that Akainu feared. Was never my intent to argue the Samurai's imprisonment. Just their strength.


Yes and they didn't. How are the Samurai a faction to be feared as something the Government can't handle, when the Government has the military might to combat Yonko crews, possess 3 Admirals, a Fleet Admiral, the SSGs, as well as 2 retired old legends along with hordes of Vice Admirals (some of which are Admiral candidates)? Especially if we're using Hyogoro as a poster boy, and given what we know about their best fighters (Akazuya 9)? If Oden was still alive and well, that'd be a different story and it would validate the Navy's fears somewhat, since Wano would not only have a top tier fighter at the head, but a reason to still be a world power with him as leader; thus causing the Navy to be weary of incurring notable casualties if they were to invade. Casualties which would also have long-term repercussions on the overall balance of power.


Chip Skylark said:


> *In context of the situation Akainu didn't need to worry about the Samurai,* but in terms of their actual strength Hyo did demonstrate a frightful level of ability that had even Apoo and Drake in awe.


If you acknowledge the bolded, then we're agreement and fair enough. That's really what I was saying. Hyo impressing Drake and Apoo is fine. He's strong, as far as they're concerned.


Chip Skylark said:


> Can't deny the outcome of the war, but the influence of his illness explains that. *Sengoku's fear gives plenty reason to doubt that the Navy would've been capable of achieving that victory against a fully healthy version of Oldbeard.*


The influence of his illness contributed towards the outcome. Whether the absence of his illness completely justifies Sengoku's fear to the point that they'd be wiped out, is a different matter entirely that tethers more towards an assumption, which is what the bolded is.

And the answer to that assumption is completely unknown, since we haven't seen an Old WB destroy an entire Navy force. Hell, even WB in his Prime steered clear of the Navy, as he explained to Oden that they were the largest organisation and it was pointless to fight them. Of course...on the flip side, it may not have had to do with power levels either. His point was that fighting them would be an endless endeavour, so there's no point.


Chip Skylark said:


> Maybe I should've been more clear.
> 
> I meant that it's not an excuse to justify why WB would be an exception to Sengoku's fears. You tend to treat the statement as if it wouldn't apply to other Yonko despite acknowledging the various statements claiming that the Yonko rivaled WB.


Another factor to consider would be the battle strength of the WB Pirates, their Commanders, and the vast fleets of allies WB had under his command.

I acknowledge the Yonko rivalled Old WB. However, a world destroying power is something that Sengoku specifically singled out WB to have. We don't know what he thinks about the other Yonko individually, because he's never talked about them. All we know is that the Navy are apprehensive of every single Yonko crew, and for good reason. They are the largest/strongest pirate crews in the world led by the 4 strongest pirates, requiring a lot of preparation and manpower to deal with.

Previously, we touched on reputation. No one in the Navy with the exception of perhaps Garp, would be more aware of WB's reputation.


Chip Skylark said:


> It's inconsistent to argue that Sengoku was right to fear WB while simultaneously arguing that he and the admirals are comparable to WB, or that Sengoku wouldn't similarly fear a confrontation against the other Yonko that were consistently said to be on WB's level.


But that's not what I said.

I said the Admirals fought on par with WB in the War...which as a matter of fact they did. That doesn't mean they were equal to him in overall, individual strength.

Sengoku was right to fear WB and his powers specifically (due to his and the Admirals' roles of protecting HQ), as the Gura Gura had the ability to tilt islands, seas, and create tsunamis dwarfing the entire island.


Chip Skylark said:


> Hence, "No reason it should be an excuse to justify Sengoku's fear *while somehow maintaining a stance that conflicts with his word*."


Refer to above.


Chip Skylark said:


> Sengoku's fear was that their forces would've been annihilated. Not just the island.


And he was proven wrong.


Chip Skylark said:


> Preparations to defend the scaffolding, and surround WB's crew don't exactly prevent WB from sinking the island.


Yes, but forming strategies to nerf him which I'm sure you acknowledge; and having Admirals to fight him definitely helps too.

IF Whitebeard could have sunken the island or annihilated their forces, he would have. He didn't come close to doing it, and those strategies or tactics utilised by the Navy have a lot to do with it. Taking advantage of said illness or utilising Squardo were a part of that strategy too.


Chip Skylark said:


> *so don't know why you're trying to make it about the island.*


Because Sengoku told Blackbeard Marineford is a symbol of justice, and that he wouldn't allow him to sink it. "Don't talk about stuff like sinking the island so casually, you novice!"

Akainu told WB he had to stop destroying the city; to which WB responded by challenging him to protect it. The significance of the island itself and its HQ in relation to the Marines cannot be dismissed. In fact, it is almost inherently linked to their objective, along with the execution of Ace, and killing the pirates.


Chip Skylark said:


> WB was _never_ healthy during the war. Was emphasized that Squard was able to land his attack in the first place because WB was already severely handicapped because of his illness. It's the whole reason Croc called WB weak. The influence of his illness didn't start just after the stabbing or with the heart attacks.


And he was strapped to IVs long before the War as well, was he not? So he was _never _healthy in that time either. Yet still, he was a Yonko and rivalled them. To argue that he would've been capable of destroying everyone on the island if he wasn't sick is an assumption based on nothing that's substantiated. Sengoku's statement wasn't proof. It was a cautionary warning based on a possibility of what _may _have been possible, based on his knowledge of WB's powers in his absolute prime.

OR WB didn't expect Squard to stab him? It was a betrayal from his son, and it was portrayed as such. WB simply didn't expect such disloyalty from Squard, whom he had called upright and loyal. Also, if we're gonna go with Marco's monologue and use Squardo as an example to say how weak and sluggish WB had become...how was WB able to react and strike Aokiji then? How was he able to sneak up on Kizaru, and then tag Akainu, when he was in a far worse condition than when Squardo stabbed him? Did Vice Admiral Ronse not sneak up on WB from behind too? Yet WB easily no sold his attack with his back turned towards him, before proceeding to destroy the man.

Either we'd have to call them inconsistencies and accept that WB couldn't react to Squardo, but could somehow react to the Admirals and other sneak attacks...OR, we accept that Squardo stabbing him was also a part of the narrative, and that he simply didn't expect betrayal from one of his sons who was talking to him.


His decline wasn't that apparent until Squard had stabbed him. And it only got worse as the War continued with every injury he incurred. I don't think it's up for debate that the WB before the Start of the War who wasn't damaged, was far healthier than the WB who later on suffered heart attacks on the battlefield.

As for Croc, he called WB weak because he was once defeated by a stronger version of WB. It's that simple.

His illness was always present, but the decline of his health only worsened throughout the War.


Chip Skylark said:


> Also not ignoring the fact that Aokiji negating the tsusami's. Just not going to act like countering an opening move suggests a level of parity between the admirals and that version of WB.


I'm not saying Aokiji is WB level.

I brought up the tsunami move in this discussion, to say that Aokiji's presence negates the possibility of WB being able to sink Marineford. That's all.


Chip Skylark said:


> Not unlike how nobody, within reason, would argue that Yamato is comparable to Kaido because they matched each others Breath attacks and Bagua's.


But If I were to argue this; the Admirals have a far different hype from Yamato, to support the idea that they could fight on even terms with an Old, and especially Sick WB.

Yamato's biggest claim to fame is her status as Kaido's son/daughter...and of course, her performance against Kaido. The Admirals are individually the World Government's Greatest Military Powers, with feats and portrayal that far trump Yamato's, and Vista's (in case his duel with Mihawk is brought up).


Chip Skylark said:


> I've said this a few times before, but you don't find it at least a little bit odd how easily you pass off Admiral feats as Yonko level compared to other characters who do the same, if not more?


Because those characters don't have so many other things going for them as the Admirals do.

Guys like Vista are mere Yonko Commanders (still impressive), and while his feat of sparring Mihawk is impressive; he's not considered a world power by title nor hype. He's not capable of cutting mountains, reducing entire islands to magma or ice, or capable of beating another top tier. Same goes for Yamato.

One of the Admirals went on to become Fleet Admiral, which is a position that one of the Yonko (Big Mom) was once stated to have the potential to become, when she was young. We have legends like Sengoku, who also held the rank in his prime, and was comparable to Garp at the time, who was comparable in strength to the Pirate King in his prime.

Now, I'm not saying that the Admirals are equal to the Yonko, or that someone like Aokiji is as strong as Prime Garp; however, they have a lot more going for them than characters like Yamato or Vista in that direction to suggest that they're comparable. It doesn't take much effort to figure that out...



Chip Skylark said:


> Aokiji stopping Sick WB's casual opener and having a brief skirmish with him where he makes no headway is enough to prove to you that they were comparable, but Luffy can split the skies and fight with Kaido evenly for an extended period of time *yet you still doubt he's a solid top tier*.


I never said that he wasn't a top tier.


Chip Skylark said:


> That's weird. Especially when WB went on to pummel Akainu despite being sick, having only half a head, and being littered with injuries. Wouldn't say the "sneak attack" made Akainu more disadvantaged in that situation considering everything WB was suffering from...


Yeah, and then Akainu still proceeded to fight the Remnants.

WB's condition was irrelevant at that point, because he was consumed with rage.

WB > Akainu, but again, context..


Chip Skylark said:


> Can't exactly rely on the outcome as proof when you've already acknowledged WB's handicaps going into the battle.


Can't rely on one of Sengoku's "concerned" remarks either as proof that a healthier WB would've soloed all the forces in Marineford, especially when it never happened. That takes a massive leap in logic while bypassing numerous other things that we've been shown in the manga, including but not limited to the commentary by ordinary citizens around the world before the War, suggesting that no one can beat the forces of Marineford.

There's also no proof that the other Yonko crews would've individually matched, let alone exceeded their performance. The onus would be on you to prove that.


Chip Skylark said:


> That's not what I'm arguing. I just disagree with the notion that Akainu's concerns over the samurai were laughable. *They were only a part of his concern, *but his caution of them was plenty valid.


Sure. We can agree on this, if we're also taking into account the fact that the Samurai may have only been a part of their concern. More disconcerting is the unknown military force on Wano which ended up including the Beast Pirates, and later on; Big Mom + the Raid Alliance. In hindsight, he was completely justified in his concerns.


Chip Skylark said:


> The Impel Down crew only made up a small fraction of the participating fighters. Luffy himself was compared to an ant in a storm. If that alone were enough to turn the tides against the Navy's massive advantage in military size that should tell you they needed every last bit of what they brought.


Come on now; Mihawk, Kizaru, among plenty others had a lot of chances to kill him, yet they didn't...I wonder why that is. Probably because of the same reason for why he even made it to the execution platform. He's the main character.

Bonus credit goes to Mr. 3 for sneaking behind the platform as one of the execution staff and making the key to the cuffs.

Luffy freeing Ace has nothing to do with MHQ being potentially "wiped out" either.


Chip Skylark said:


> The mission didn't fail through their own lack of ability. It wasn't a situation where Ace was cornered, and couldn't leave the island safely. *He gave into Akainu's taunts*, and wasted his allies efforts.


So Akainu was responsible for baiting Ace  Just as he was responsible for implementing the Squardo strategy.



Chip Skylark said:


> And the point was that despite WB's handicap his crew was still capable of achieving a partial win through their rescue of Ace. Of course old and sick WB couldn't fully realize Sengoku's fears, but it speaks volumes that he was still able to save Ace from the Navy.


Yeah this is true.

I agree that they came close to accomplishing their objective, and thus accomplishing what they came for.


Chip Skylark said:


> Unfortunate that he couldn't save Ace from himself, but that was still a win the pirates had over the Navy *before Ace single-handedly threw it away.*


Yes, but again Akainu was mainly responsible for this. Ace was a reckless, impulsive moron for giving into it and wasting all their efforts. Akainu's manipulation is a part of his role too, as antagonist.


----------



## TheWiggian (Mar 13, 2022)

Going with Ryuma based off his insane hype for now.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Conxc (Mar 13, 2022)

Making bad threads out of spite? OOF.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

When Ryuuma's power and legend will finally be revealed people will have their minds blown. Same energy here as those who were saying Mihawk doesn't have Haki back in the day, or he can't cut logias, or he is weaker commander level. They will learn. 

Ryuma is PK level by hype. Stronger than anyone alive. Him vs Primebeard is a crapshoot.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 3


----------



## J★J♥ (Mar 13, 2022)

Ryuuma. He scared off WG out of Wano for centuries.


----------



## Dead Precedence (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> When Ryuuma's power and legend will finally be revealed people will have their minds blown. Same energy here as those who were saying Mihawk doesn't have Haki back in the day, or he can't cut logias, or he is weaker commander level. They will learn.
> 
> Ryuma is PK level by hype. Stronger than anyone alive. Him vs Primebeard is a crapshoot.


Tbf Ryuma is rated pretty highly here and most people do have him above the other Yonko.  He beat down Kaido in a poll a year ago pretty badly (although I am curious what the results would be now) and also beat Shanks too. I’m fully on board the Ryuma train and wouldn’t be surprised if he’s borked cause he’s an ancient character (if Imu ruled the WG during his era and still couldn’t breach Wano then that’d be even more impressive) on top of like you said in another thread  being the protagonist of one of Oda’s previous one shot does score some brownie points as legacy characters like that tend to be busted and it’s clear Oda is portraying him as one in the lore. Still though a Pirate King level character is a Pirate King level character and I’m to shook to bet for Ryuma atm even though I’m a zorostan .


----------



## Amol (Mar 13, 2022)

I have lost any and all respect for anyone who voted Ryuma beating fucking Primebeard.

Absolutely fucking disgusting.
The fuck that non character has ever done to recieve nod over Primebeard?
Killing a dragon puts you above Primebeard who would make entire dragon race go extinct?

To me that is some next level stupidity and toxicity.
That is also indirect way of wanking Zoro. 

Sorry Zoro wankers, Zoro does not have PK level potential. That is reserved for MC of manga and despite you pretending otherwise Zoro is not Luffy's equal.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 3


----------



## Tsukuyomi (Mar 13, 2022)

WB for now(But this could change soon). 


Amol said:


> I have lost any and all respect for anyone who voted Ryuma beating fucking Primebeard.
> 
> Absolutely fucking disgusting.
> The fuck that non character has ever done to recieve nod over Primebeard?
> ...


You sound salty mate.
Just saying

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Amol (Mar 13, 2022)

Code said:


> WB for now(But this could change soon).
> 
> You sound salty mate.
> Just saying


More like disgusted.

This board has clearly crossed threshold of Zoro wanking. It is unsightly.


----------



## Tsukuyomi (Mar 13, 2022)

Amol said:


> More like disgusted.
> 
> This board has clearly crossing threshold of Zoro wanking. It is unsightly.


Ryuma is an unknown tho. 
Anything is possible.


----------



## Amol (Mar 13, 2022)

Code said:


> Ryuma is an unknown tho.
> Anything is possible.


Anything is not possible. One Piece is not Fairy Tail.

Primebeard (thus Roger) are goal of MC of this manga. They have always been showcase as pinnacle of strength in this manga. Even old WB was WSM.

To me someone has factually failed to read One Piece when he puts fucking non character like Ryuma above PK level characters (thus above MC's goal).


Oden has more hype than Ryuma by every single criteria. This whole thing is not about Ryuma anyway. Ryuma doesn't have fans. It is just toxic Zoro stans trying to hype Zoro indirectly.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Useful 1 | Tier Specialist 2


----------



## MrPopo (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> The Marines were willing to go to Whitebeard. The Marines are afraid of Wano because of Ryuma.
> 
> Ryuma wins.


The marines were unable to go after Ace because he was under Whitebeards protection

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

I feel like certain folks (or rather a certain fanbase) have this - SNIP - idea of Ryuuma as some guy who could oneshot top tiers left and right without breaking a sweat.

There's not much to say than the idea is - SNIP - and ought to die a natural death

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Well it is a good thing that most people seem to acknowledge that he might be beyond the current Yonkou at least seeing how he stacks against the strongest one:



But frankly that just may be Kaido underestimation in comparison to the PK levels who are only a hair stronger than him because if you compare the two polls you would think Primebeard mid diffs Kaido or something.


----------



## Lmao (Mar 13, 2022)

Obviously Primebeard.


Ryumma did not leave Wano, it's crazy to claim he was anywhere near PK level when there's no record of him fighting anyone of worth - slaying a dragon is equal to matching blows with Roger? There's no justification to put him above Oden let alone the pinnacle of pirate strength.


----------



## TheWiggian (Mar 13, 2022)

Don't see why it is such a problem if a WSM/S from centuries ago can potentially be stronger than the WSM from a few years ago.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## MrPopo (Mar 13, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Don't see why it is such a problem if a WSM/S from centuries ago can potentially be stronger than the WSM from a few years ago.


Because  Luffy the one to fulfill joy boys will and the one to take down the wg has been the only one hyped up to Surpass Roger and Whitebeard


----------



## Lmao (Mar 13, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Don't see why it is such a problem if a WSM/S from centuries ago can potentially be stronger than the WSM from a few years ago.


How can you be WSM if you never sailed the seas to meet the strongest people out there? Surely not every top tier of that era visited Wano AND fought Ryuma AAAAAAAAAND lost. That's too much wishful thinking in one sentence.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## TheWiggian (Mar 13, 2022)

Lmao said:


> How can you be WSM if you never sailed the seas to meet the strongest people out there? Surely not every top tier of that era visited Wano AND fought Ryuma AAAAAAAAAND lost. That's too much wishful thinking in one sentence.



Which basically applies to everyone else? WB, Mihawk, Kaido, IMU, Dragon? Surely you can provide evidence those guys where everywhere in the world and visited Raftel too right?


----------



## Lmao (Mar 13, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Which basically applies to everyone else? WB, Mihawk, Kaido, IMU, Dragon? Surely you can provide evidence those guys where everywhere in the world and visited Raftel too right?


They may not have been _everywhere_ but at least they did sail the seas *and *have records of fighting actually worthy opponents, something which cannot be said for Ryuma. 

His best feat is literally slaying a dragon, even PH Zoro has a better feat.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Ryuma was known as the God of swords, he was known as the strongest in his time, and he had a black blade. The people worship him. It is one thing to claim Primebeard is stronger. Sure it is friggin primebeard. Only Joyboy is 100% stronger than Primebeard. But Oden? Couldn't even make his blade black was not remotely in the conversation of strongest man of his time and was someone highly respected and loved but not revered like Ryuuma.

Ryuuma being below Oden is a really weird argument by the usuals but doesn't matter as Zoro is going to match or surpass Oden by the end of this very arc and this fact will be specifically mentioned. Kaido's statement of no future samurai ever being able to match Oden will come up as a plot point. Oda put that statement from him in for a reason. And Zoro isn't surpassing Ryuuma until the end of manga. That is the difference between the two.

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> Ryuma was known as the God of swords, he was known as the strongest *in Wano* in his time,


Feel like certain folks conveniently leave that bit out every single time.
Couldn't be bothered with the rest...


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Feel like certain folks conveniently leave that bit out every single time.
> Couldn't be bothered with the rest...



If you read Monsters you would know the references in it are strongest in the world not merely Wano.

So much mental gymnastics. If he is known as the world's strongest he is the strongest until disproven otherwise. Oda has so much time in a single oneshot to have the strongest people from all over the world come and fight Ryuuma to show us why he was the strongest of his time.


----------



## TheWiggian (Mar 13, 2022)

Lmao said:


> *They may not have been *_*everywhere*_ but at least they did sail the seas *and *have records of fighting actually worthy opponents, something which cannot be said for Ryuma.
> 
> His best feat is literally slaying a dragon, even PH Zoro has a better feat.





Lmao said:


> *How can you be WSM if you never sailed the seas to meet the strongest people out there?* Surely not every top tier of that era visited Wano AND fought Ryuma AAAAAAAAAND lost. That's too much wishful thinking in one sentence.



So no one has sailed the whole world and defeated everyone or all strongest, not even Roger. So not necessarily needed to be regarded as the strongest as we have witnessed over and over again.


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

Doesn't the WG's fear strongly imply that they tried to invade Wano? Gyukimaru says a lot of pirates and nobles wanted Wano for themselves. Ryuma didn't have to go anywhere to challenge other people. They came to him and left traumatized for generations to come.


*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> If you read Monsters you would know the references in it are strongest in the world not merely Wano.


It's a good thing we also know that Wano is an isolationist country, hence it's extremely questionable that they would have any knowledge of the world's affairs


----------



## TheWiggian (Mar 13, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Doesn't the WG's fear strongly imply that they tried to invade Wano? Gyukimaru says a lot of pirates and nobles wanted Wano for themselves. Ryuma didn't have to go anywhere to challenge other people. They came to him and left traumatized for generations to come.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



It's outright stated that countless enemies tried to take over Wano and all of them failed.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Lmao (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> But Oden? Couldn't even make his blade black was not remotely in the conversation of strongest man of his time and was someone highly respected and loved but not revered like Ryuuma.


What does black blade have to do with strength? Roger didn’t have a black blade either and he would clap Mihawk, Shanks doesn't have one either (so far) and is Mihawk's peer.

Kaido put Oden up there with verse *legends*, hell he invaded Ryuma's homeland and hasn't mentioned the guy one single time, as matter of fact nobody outside of Wano has.

Joyboy died almost a millennia ago and is still relevant, people are still trying to become or carry on his will. Ryuma? 1043 chapters in and crickets, nobody out there trying to become the next Ryuma.   



TheWiggian said:


> So no one has sailed the whole world and defeated everyone or all strongest, not even Roger. So not necessarily needed to be regarded as the strongest as we have witnessed over and over again.


You really going full copium on this one 

You know very well sailing any part of the world >>> never leaving your island. Mihawk's first encounter with Zoro perfectly supports this point:

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> It's outright stated that countless enemies tried to take over Wano and all of them failed.





Eustathios said:


> Doesn't the WG's fear strongly imply that they tried to invade Wano? Gyukimaru says a lot of pirates and nobles wanted Wano for themselves. Ryuma didn't have to go anywhere to challenge other people. They came to him and left traumatized for generations to come.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __





Yeah, this doesn't tell us anything about the quality of opposition he faced in his lifetime. 

Also I'm hoping we aren't taking the word "countless" literally

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Lmao (Mar 13, 2022)

Imagine claiming Ryuma was WSM of his time when Zoro, the guy who will surpass him, won't even be bronze medalist of this era let alone the strongest.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 2


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Yeah, *this doesn't tell us anything about the quality of opposition* he faced in his lifetime.
> 
> Also I'm hoping we aren't taking the word "countless" literally


It's portrayal. Oda doesn't have to tell us exactly how many pirates he faced or how many Admirals came to Wano. He single-handedly beat everyone who tried to claim the _Land of Gold_, his hype has persisted for centuries and he was the WSM. Aside from Roger, no one has put this much fear in the WG, not even WB.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

Lmao said:


> Imagine claiming Ryuma was WSM of his time when Zoro, the guy who will surpass him, won't even be bronze medalist of this era let alone the strongest.


That's because the strongest of this era will be Joyboy. Zoro as the strongest swordsman ever will surpass or at least reach Roger, hence why Ryuma should be on par with the PKs or superior based on his hype.

Reactions: Neutral 1


----------



## Corax (Mar 13, 2022)

Hard to judge to be fair. If Ryuma=void century legends  he should be>prime WB. But we have no way to confirm this.


----------



## DeVision (Mar 13, 2022)

Corax said:


> Hard to judge to be fair. If Ryuma=void century legends  he should be>prime WB. But we have no way to confirm this.



Ryuma lived 400 years ago.
Void century = 800 years ago.


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

DeVision said:


> *Ryuma lived 400 years ago.*
> Void century = 800 years ago.


Source?


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Lmao said:


> What does black blade have to do with strength? Roger didn’t have a black blade either and he would clap Mihawk, Shanks doesn't have one either (so far) and is Mihawk's peer.
> 
> *Kaido put Oden up there with verse legends, hell he invaded Ryuma's homeland and hasn't mentioned the guy one single time, *as matter of fact nobody outside of Wano has.
> 
> Joyboy died almost a millennia ago and is still relevant, people are still trying to become or carry on his will. Ryuma? 1043 chapters in and crickets, nobody out there trying to become the next Ryuma.



Roger is not a pure swordsman. Oden was. A mark of the ultimate mastery of the sword is forging a black blade.

And the bold is downright hilarious.

Why in GOD's name would Kaido mention Ryuuma's name as monsters who could fight on par with him like Oden when he has been dead for 100s of years and the only people Kaido mentioned are people who he has seen and fought against?

And needlessly bringing Joyboy the jesus of the story into this argument as if any person we are talking about here holds a candle to him? Someone who almost no one knows about either not even Roger until he literally read his name on a stone.

If this is the reasoning you expect me to argue with you are mistaken. I am done. A post emblematic of all the poor faith arguments against Ryuuma.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> It's portrayal. Oda doesn't have to tell us exactly how many pirates he faced or how many Admirals came to Wano. He single-handedly beat everyone who tried to claim the _Land of Gold_, his hype has persisted for centuries and he was the WSM. Aside from Roger, *no one has put this much fear in the WG, not even WB*.


Are we really sure about that? 

They literally gathered damn near everything in their arsenal to fight old WB and frankly had he not been sick, things could have been a lot worse for the WG. Heck we had Sengoku stating that WB could destroy the world. Obviously we can take that as a bit of an exaggeration, but frankly there's no greater hype than that as far as the series is concerned.

WB never tried to directly attack the WG. In fact from the Oden flashbacks and the lore around his character, he was content with maintaining balance as opposed to aggressively trying to bring down the WG or get in their way. 


Ryuuma's biggest hype is that he served as a deterrent to foreign invasion. Kaido easily replicates that hype as neither the WG nor other "regular" pirates want smoke with him.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Tsukuyomi (Mar 13, 2022)

Lmao said:


> Imagine claiming Ryuma was WSM of his time when Zoro, the guy who will surpass him, won't even be bronze medalist of this era let alone the strongest.


Only Luffy and Imu will be stronger than him in this Era. 
How is that not Bronze Medallist?


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> Roger is not a pure swordsman.


For years, the legion has been selling us on the idea that "everyone who holds a sword is a swordsman". Seems the narrative has changed over night


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> For years, the legion has been selling us on the idea that "everyone who holds a sword is a swordsman". Seems the narrative has changed over night



Take it up with whoever traumatized you with their reasoning.

My definition has always been, "Someone who primarily uses swordsmanship as their main form of combat"

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Are we really sure about that?
> 
> They literally gathered damn near everything in their arsenal to fight old WB and frankly had he not been sick, things could have been a lot worse for the WG. Heck we had Sengoku stating that WB could destroy the world. Obviously we can take that as a bit of an exaggeration, but frankly there's no greater hype than that as far as the series is concerned.
> 
> WB never tried to directly attack the WG. In fact from the Oden flashbacks and the lore around his character, he was content with maintaining balance as opposed to aggressively trying to bring down the WG or get in their way.


They gathered their strongest and in the end they easily won. WB attacked MF with a massive alliance and he was striking their HQ. Ryuma defeated waves on invaders on his own. The WG was willing to go to war with WB. Ryuma's legend haunts them so much they never tried to set foot on Wano again.


Kroczilla said:


> Ryuuma's biggest hype is that he served as a deterrent to foreign invasion. Kaido easily replicates that hype as neither the WG nor other "regular" pirates want smoke with him.


The WG would declare war on any Yonkou if they felt like it, just like with WB. The reason they maintain this system is because the Yonkou keep other pirates in check, otherwise they would've destroyed them years ago. Im just doesn't care about them.


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> Take it up with whoever traumatized you with their reasoning.
> 
> My definition has always been, "Someone who primarily uses swordsmanship as their main offense"


So Roger doesn't primarily use swordsmanship as his main offense?  

Or are you on the "Hakiman" train now?


----------



## Tsukuyomi (Mar 13, 2022)

Y


Kroczilla said:


> For years, the legion has been selling us on the idea that "everyone who holds a sword is a swordsman". Seems the narrative has changed over night


You can be a basic Swordsman but not a pure swordsman(Someone who specializes in all forms of Swordsmanship).
So WSS still applies  and I honestly think you are misinterpreting what @convict  is trying to say.


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> So Roger doesn't primarily use swordsmanship as his main offense?
> 
> Or are you on the "Hakiman" train now?



We have no idea genius. He has used a gun. He has used a sword. He might have a fruit. 

Expected diversionary arguments from you but I won't bite any more.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Perrin (Mar 13, 2022)

Be open minded people.
It seems Ryuma didn’t live in Joyboys era, and was dead before Imu’s.
This means that Ryuma could have been stronger even than JoyBoy and Imu but enjoyed life on Wano.


----------



## TheWiggian (Mar 13, 2022)

Lmao said:


> You really going full copium on this one
> 
> You know very well sailing any part of the world >>> never leaving your island. Mihawk's first encounter with Zoro perfectly supports this point:



Funny because you refuted your own argument but I am the one on copium? 

 



Lmao said:


> *How can you be WSM if you never sailed the seas to meet the strongest people out there?* *Surely not every top tier of that era visited Wano AND fought Ryuma AAAAAAAAAND lost.* That's too much wishful thinking in one sentence.





Lmao said:


> *They may not have been everywhere *but at least they did sail the seas *and *have records of fighting actually worthy opponents, something which cannot be said for Ryuma.
> 
> His best feat is literally slaying a dragon, even PH Zoro has a better feat.



So much for your argument.

Reactions: Funny 5


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> The WG would declare war on any Yonkou if they felt like it, just like with WB. The reason they maintain this system is because the Yonkou keep other pirates in check, otherwise they would've destroyed them years ago. Im just doesn't care about them.



Keep in mind the reason Akainu told Kizaru to wait is because it has, and I quote, "mysterious mighty samurai".

Can you believe it?

It isn't Kaido that the marines including Akainu are scared off. It is literally Ryuuma's legend.

Because Kizaru was ready to go and INTERCEPT and engage with Kaido and Big Mom. That is literally the reason he asked to go.

The sheer audacity and nerve of the usuals trying to downplay this. 100s of years down the line and Ryuuma's trauma still festers in the marines surpassing the threat of 2 active Yonkou meeting up. Because at the end of the day which samurai could hold a candle to Kizaru? It all traces back to Ryuuma.

No matter just as they inexorably accepted Mihawk as a bonafide Yonkou level top tier they will accept this.

Reactions: Like 7


----------



## Lmao (Mar 13, 2022)

Code said:


> Only Luffy and Imu will be stronger than him in this Era.
> How is that not Bronze Medallist?


Luffy, Blackbeard. Law and Kid are currently stronger than him and we have no reason to assume their growth will stop, I didn't even put Imu on the list since we don't know if he's a fighter type.

Barely scrapping for top 5, not a good look for Ryuma.



TheWiggian said:


> Funny because you refuted your own argument but I am the one on copium?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are clinging on the "whole world" sentence when that was not even the point but I'm somehow refuting myself.

Keep dodging the point Wigg


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 13, 2022)

Yeah no way Ryuuma will turn out to be weaker than the Flower Capital's red district twerker.

Reactions: Funny 8


----------



## Tsukuyomi (Mar 13, 2022)

Lmao said:


> Luffy, Blackbeard. Law and Kid are currently stronger than him and we have no reason to assume their growth will stop, I didn't even put Imu on the list since we don't know if he's a fighter type.
> 
> Barely scrapping for top 5, not a good look for Ryuma.
> 
> ...


Idk about Law and Kid tbh. 
It is up in the air I suppose. 
If we were to include em. 
Then I guess you are right  
Ohh and BTW I talked to Oda. 
He told me Mihawk is superior to Shanks


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> They gathered their strongest and in the end they easily won. WB attacked MF with a massive alliance and he was striking their HQ. Ryuma defeated waves on invaders on his own. The WG was willing to go to war with WB. Ryuma's legend haunts them so much they never tried to set foot on Wano again.


The differences being that WB came to them. The WG were willing to go to war with WB because they could make adequate preparations on their own turf including doors designed to negate his quake among others. While on his turf, they never dared make a move on him. Heck they couldn't touch Ace coz Ace was under his protection.


Eustathios said:


> The WG would declare war on any Yonkou of they felt like it, just like with WB. The reason they maintain this system is because the Yonkou keep other pirates in check, otherwise they would've destroyed them years ago. Im just doesn't care about them


Again, see above. They declared war on their own terms. The WG don't maintain the Yonko system because they want to. They maintain it because other than the specific circumstances leading up to Marineford, they can literally do nothing about it. Heck they hired and fought alongside pirates just so they could balance out the overwhelming strength of the Yonko.



Code said:


> Y
> 
> You can be a basic Swordsman but not a pure swordsman(Someone who specializes in all forms of Swordsmanship).
> So WSS still applies  and I honestly think you are misinterpreting what @convict  is trying to say.


I disagree with your characterization of my point. I haven't misinterpreted @convict . Heck I hold the same view about "swordsmen" in One Piece. My point goes more to @convict 's character... But that point is moot and way too off topic.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Tsukuyomi (Mar 13, 2022)

Ryu


Mihawk said:


> Yeah no way Ryuuma will turn out to be weaker than the Flower Capital's red district twerker.


Ryuma is Zoro's EOS benchmark. 
The last benchmark. 
He is in no way weaker than Oden.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Dead Precedence (Mar 13, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Yeah no way Ryuuma will turn out to be weaker than the Flower Capital's red district twerker.


More people had Ryuma mid diffing Oden than high diffing him in some poll I made a while back, oof.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Tsukuyomi (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> The differences being that WB came to them. The WG were willing to go to war with WB because they could make adequate preparations on their own turf including doors designed to negate his quake among others. While on his turf, they never dared make a move on him. Heck they couldn't touch Ace coz Ace was under his protection.
> 
> Again, see above. They declared war on their own terms. The WG don't maintain the Yonko system because they want to. They maintain it because other than the specific circumstances leading up to Marineford, they can literally do nothing about it. Heck they hired and fought alongside pirates just so they could balance out the overwhelming strength of the Yonko.
> 
> ...


I see. 
But @convict is my son. 
My paternal instincts will kick in whenever i see him upset.

Reactions: Friendly 3


----------



## Lmao (Mar 13, 2022)

Code said:


> Ohh and BTW I talked to Oda.
> He told me Mihawk is superior to Shanks


I condone shitstorms but this is a topic for a different time, this thread's controversial enough already

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## TheWiggian (Mar 13, 2022)

Lmao said:


> *You are clinging on the "whole world"* sentence when that was not even the point but I'm somehow refuting myself.
> 
> Keep dodging the point Wigg



Since it's your argument that the more parts of the world a character has sailed/visited = the stronger said character is, it's actually you who is clinging to it.



			
				Lmao said:
			
		

> *They may not have been everywhere *but *at least they did sail the seas* and have records of fighting actually worthy opponents, something which cannot be said for Ryuma.



WB has fought Roger, Mihawk with Shanks, Kaido with world government facility managers and janitors.

Ryuma fought everyone who invaded Wano, pirates and world government and marines alike. Mind you since nobles wanted the place they very likely even sent an admiral from time to time. Yet no one could usurp the country of gold.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Amol (Mar 13, 2022)

WG never invades any Yonkou territory either.

Even Big Mom's.

WG did not try to take Fishman Island which was literally below Holy Land and near Marine HQ because at first it belonged to WB and then Big Mom.

Like I don't know why Ryuma is being wanked here for beating countless fodders.

Marines before Akainu didn't even bother to do much in New World. The barman of bar in which Nami sat after TS outright told that Akainu was the very first FA who took Marines deep inside New World to challenge pirates. That means Marines never even had a serious presence in New World before Akainu.

So the sheer wanking Ryuma gets is hilarious. Ryuma didn't beat Admirals left or right. Zoro stans are clearly trying to imply that with no evidence whatsoever.


Like  WG was not willing to go after retired and alone Rayleigh. Kizaru just left after their skirmish. Garp outright said that WG won't be willing to take on two legends at the same time even with home turf advantage at both cases. That implies WG doesn't start any fight where they don't hold overwhelming advantage. Wano has always been mystery to them and a place where they didn't have home turf advantage. WG plays safe and tries to maintain status quo unless they have extreme advantage.


So Ryuma wanking is the most baseless wanking of all time. His hype is lower than Oden and so are his feats. He is a non character who also doesn't have anything to do with Void Century . He was born after void century.

He might have been top tier but there is absolutely nothing special about him. 

Ryuma is only getting wanked to high heavens due to Zoro. There has no other reason. It is indirect way of wanking Zoro.

Primebeard will spank Ryuma and tell him to call him daddy.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Amol said:


> WG never invades any Yonkou territory either.
> 
> Even Big Mom's.
> 
> ...



You clearly appear to be the least biased poster here. Your post drips with neutrality and rationality as it always does in matters with Zoro. Thank you for fighting the good fight against those irredeemable toxic Zoro stans.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Creative 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

Are we really pretending that the Ryuuma-wank isn't a poorly disguised attempt to wank Zoro? 

Mmokay


----------



## MrPopo (Mar 13, 2022)

Ryumas hype puts him on the level of the yonkou nothing to suggest he's beyond it

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

Amol said:


> WG never invades any Yonkou territory either.
> 
> Even Big Mom's.
> 
> ...


That's more hype for Ryuma. Sakazuki is willing to challenge the Yonkou in their turf but he won't send anyone to Wano because of the samurai (Ryuma's legend)

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Tsukuyomi (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Are we really pretending that the Ryuuma-wank isn't a poorly disguised attempt to wank Zoro?
> 
> Mmokay


If


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> That's more hype for Ryuma. Sakazuki is willing to challenge the Yonkou in their turf but he won't send anyone to Wano because of the samurai (Ryuma's legend)


Couldn't that be Oden hype given that Oden's the one example of Wano Samurai strength that Akainu could identify with?


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Couldn't that be Oden hype given that Oden's the one example of Wano Samurai strength that Akainu could identify with?



Yup we are going to give credit of the centuries old government fear of Wano from the guy who constantly fought invaders crushing nobles' entry into Wano all his life, to the vagabond who loved outsiders and wanted to leave Wano with them the first chance he got and open its borders as soon as he was able.

I'll bet Ryuuma didn't really slay a dragon either. It was his cousin Joe coming back from Comic-con dressed as Smaug who he bonked.

Reactions: Winner 3


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Mar 13, 2022)

I can see possibilities of Ryuma being stronger than Primebeard given all the legendary hype he has, but I am still voting Primebeard for now due to Ryuma's lack of feats.

I can see it being like this :
Joyboy > Ryuma > Roger = Primebeard in the powerscale, just need feats to back it up.

If Ryuma does eventually prove to be > Primebeard, it would mean that :
- EOS Luffy would probably be so strong he can Low Diff Yonko/Admirals, man would prolly be able to beat 3-4 Admirals on his own.
- EOS Zoro would be able to beat Roger/Primebeard High Diff and will be able to Mid Diff Yonko/Admirals
- EOS Sanji might be = Roger/Primebeard and be able to High Diff Yonko/Admirals
- EOS Yamato would be = the strongest Yonko and become as powerful as current Kaido and hence Extreme diff other Yonko/Admirals.
.
- EOS Usopp would be as powerful as a YC1.
- EOS weakest Strawhat might end up being as powerful as YC3.

If all goes as hyped, EOS Strawhat Pirates would be a totally unrivalled godlike Pirate Crew in all history....surpassing every single legend in the past including Rogers, Rocks, WB etc.

Fuck yeah they would not just be the most free crew on the seas, they would fucking rule the sea as gods, assuming other Supernovas like Kidd and Law caps at Yonko level EOS, which I can totally see happen.

Good fucking like becoming EOS Luffy's garp, Coby and Smoker, even if they both end up reaching Admiral level they would need two other Admirals to rival Luffy alone.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Amol (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> You clearly appear to be the least biased poster here. Your post drips with neutrality and rationality as it always does in matters with Zoro. Thank you for fighting the good fight against those irredeemable toxic Zoro stans.


Well I am clearly less biased than you are. 

I mean imagine being so biased that put someone like Ryuma above Primebeard just for Zoro.


It is creepy. 


Eustathios said:


> That's more hype for Ryuma. Sakazuki is willing to challenge the Yonkou in their turf but he won't send anyone to Wano because of the samurai (Ryuma's legend)


You are literally writing fanfiction now.

What Akainu's decision got to do with Ryuma?
It was most likely to be with Oden whom Marines knew just a decade or two ago than it was with Ryuma who had been dead for centuries.


This is defination of trying too hard. You are just giving Oden's hype to Ryuma based on nothing.

Ryuma is a non character about whom we only know a single thing and that is the he killed Dragon. If he had defeated an Admiral then he would have been famous for that but nobody says that so he didn't fight a single admiral in his life.

Akainu didn't even name him. He just talked about Samurai in general.

I mean shit Oden's sword is even stronger than Ryuma's sword. Oden by any criteria of stronger than Ryuma. He was literally Oda's darling after all.

Reactions: Winner 3


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> Yup we are going to give credit of the fear of Wano from the WG from guy who fought invaders crushing nobles' entry into Wano all his life to the vagabond who loved outsiders and wanted to leave Wano with them the first chance he got and open its borders as soon as he was able.
> 
> I'll bet Ryuuma didn't really slay a dragon either. It was his cousin Joe coming back from a Lord of the Rings Convention who he bonked.


In case you didn't notice, he specifically referenced Akainu being wary of Wano due to the strength of their Samurai (which tbh doesn't make sense given that Drake was their spy and the Marines ought to know the true state of Wano). I'm just pointing out that Oden is a more recent measurement of how strong Wano samurai are given that he was active and made a name for himself in Akainu's lifetime.

What exactly is wrong with that idea?


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Couldn't that be Oden hype given that Oden's the one example of Wano Samurai strength that Akainu could identify with?





Amol said:


> Well I am clearly less bias than you are.
> 
> I mean imagine being so biased that put someone like Ryuma above Primebeard just for Zoro.
> 
> ...


Gyukimaru told us the one who made the samurai famous for their strength and caused the WG to fear them was Ryuma not Oden.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> In case you didn't notice, he specifically referenced Akainu being wary of Wano due to the strength of their Samurai (which tbh doesn't make sense given that Drake was their spy and the Marines ought to know the true state of Wano). I'm just pointing out that Oden is a more recent measurement of how strong Wano samurai are given that he was active and made a name for himself in Akainu's lifetime.
> 
> What exactly is wrong with that idea?



Drake isn't reporting to Akainu. The marines won't piss their pants at the hometown of every top tier come on man. Would they also hesitate to send their best to the hometowns of Rayleigh, Scopper, Beckman, Shanks, Marco etc. if needed just because a powerful a warrior came from there at some point? Marines' fear of Wano goes way back and obviously that is what is being referenced.



Amol said:


> *Well I am clearly less bias than you are. *
> 
> I mean imagine being so biased that put someone like Ryuma above Primebeard just for Zoro.
> 
> ...



Are you though? I mean, I of course admit I am biased for Zoro I never hid that fact. But some self-reflection may be useful on your end as well.

Your unparalleled _animosity _and_ venom_ towards that character and his fanbase is not just a little alarming

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> Drake isn't reporting to Akainu. The marines won't piss their pants at the hometown of every top tier come on man. Would they also hesitate to send their best to the hometowns of Rayligh, Scopper, Beckman, Shanks, etc. if needed just because a powerful a warrior came from there at some point? *Marines' fear of Wano goes way back *and obviously that is what is being referenced


How exactly is Drake not reporting to Akainu when the latter got to know about the Big mom/Kaido alliance soon after it happened?

Also apart from the fact that none of what you typed impacts my point, we know that:

A) Akainu's language implied he was talking about Wano Samurai in general i.e. the potential for several top lvl swordsmen as opposed to a single top tier

B) More importantly, let's look at what Kizaru has to say about going after a top tier who is past his prime

 They heard rumours Raleigh was there but didn't bother investigating.
Also If they were going after a top tier, Kizaru straight up tells us that more adequate preparations than just sending an Admiral would have to be made.

In the case of Wano, Akainu seems to believe it might have several strong swordsmen making it a bigger risk obviously.

@bolded has no proof in Akainu's case. His only experience of a Wano samurai which we are certain of is Oden.


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Gyukimaru told us the one who made the samurai famous for their strength and caused the WG to fear them was Ryuma not Oden.


Gyukimaru has been stuck in Wano for how long? 

Also didn't Oden gain a great degree of infamy, enough that decades later, Akainu still clearly remembered him?


----------



## Velocity (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> In case you didn't notice, he specifically referenced Akainu being wary of Wano due to the strength of their Samurai (which tbh doesn't make sense given that Drake was their spy and the Marines ought to know the true state of Wano). I'm just pointing out that Oden is a more recent measurement of how strong Wano samurai are given that he was active and made a name for himself in Akainu's lifetime.
> 
> What exactly is wrong with that idea?


Akainu didn't refuse to send forces to Wano because of how strong Oden was. He refused to invade Wano for the same reason Whitebeard refused to invade it to avenge Oden - Wano is effectively impossible to invade and has been for eight hundred years.

Sure, with enough ships, some would inevitably make it but the enemy would be waiting at the top of the waterfall just to knock you back down again and even if you got past *that* you still have the issue of having no intel ln how large or strong the enemy force is or where they're positioned.

How many Marines would Akainu lose just trying to get into Wano at all? Then how many of them would he lose in the attack itself? Even if you believed he was careless with the lives of his people, which I don't think he is, Akainu admitted that capturing the Shichibukai instead of having them on the payroll means the Marines just do not have the manpower to take Wano.

Especially not with the equivalent of three Emperors there.


----------



## Amol (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> Are you though? I mean, I of course admit I am biased for Zoro. But some self-reflection on your end may do you well.


Do I consider Zoro as Luffy's FM?

Yes I do.

Do I consider Zoro in same general level as Law or Kid?

Yes I do.

Did I wholeheartedly always supported notion of Zoro having CoC(even if I am not fan of him skipping CoC and directly getting AdCoC) ?

Yes I did.

Do I consider Zoro will be Yonkou tier character by EoS?

Yes I did.

Did I ever say Zoro is any way equal to Sanji?

No. I didn't.

I need no self reflection.
I have always been solid with Zoro. I very much like him just like any Strawhat.

Problem with you extreme fanboys is that you call anyone who doesn't agree with your extreme wanking as hater.

"You don't consider King having better durability than Kaido and similar lethality as Akainu? "

You must be a Zoro hater.

"You don't think Zoro is similar level of Luffy?"

You must be a Zoro hater.

"You don't agree that Zoro has PK level potential?"

You must be a Zoro hater.

"You don't believe that Zoro will kill Kaido ?"

You must be a Zoro hater.


So spare me false equivalency. Zoro wanking has been off the roof long long time ago. It is so irrational nowadays that anyone who even has even tiny connection to Zoro gets wanked to heaven. This thread is proof of that. You are here arguing that Zoro is going to be stronger than Roger who is PK which is MC's dream and that somehow doesn't sound wrong to you.

You lot has lost plot long long time ago. You now only care about anything and everything that just makes Zoro sTrOnGeR. That is all that matters.

So take your own advise and try to imagine how this utterly extreme Zoro wanking comes to those who don't have unhealthy attachment to him.

Reactions: Like 5 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | GODA 1


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> How exactly is Drake not reporting to Akainu when the latter got to know about the Big mom/Kaido alliance soon after it happened?
> 
> Also apart from the fact that none of what you typed impacts my point, we know that:
> 
> ...



The fact that the top brass of the military were beating the dogshit out of Drake in SA implies Sword is a separate wing and they are doing their own thing.

There should be multiple ways of getting intel as incredible as 2 Yonkou allying just like with Shanks. Fact is. He was weary of the Wano samurai specifically. He mentioned that. End of story.

Ryuuma's singlehanded legacy of demolishing all external threats created so much trauma to the government that even to this day they feel Wano is a powerhouse country of  multiple fierce warriors. This just adds to my argument and that Akainu didn't have full intel.

The Kizaru/Rayleigh thing is irrelevant as Kizaru outright states he wants to go to Wano to face Kaido and Big Mom but Akainu stops him due to the samurai.

Once again. Giving the exploits of the guy who literally fought off and kept Wano closed off from the government all his life and whose legacy kept it closed off for centuries to the guy who ran away from Wano the first stranger he met and who wanted to open its borders.

Marvelous and expected.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Amol said:


> ...



Yeah that long post of you making up your own accusations for yourself and answering those same accusations doesn't help in any way I don't know why you took the time to do it.

Either way this is off topic and we can both just remember this conversation and maybe if instances that would require strong humility from either of us come up soon in the manga we can resume this conversation.

Reactions: Neutral 1


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Mar 13, 2022)

Honestly I don't see a problem with Zoro surpassing Roger's combat power EOS if he has Ryuma reincarnate, since Luffy is Joyboy reincarnate who would likely be > Ryuma and Roger.

As long as the M3 Luffy > Zoro > Sanji dynamic remains, I think it is entirely possible for Zoro to surpass Roger in combat, or rival.


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> The fact that the top brass of the military were beating the dogshit out of Drake in SA implies Sword is a separate wing and they are doing their own thing.


Or maybe Drake is undercover and going light on him compared to him peers (especially on orders of the Celestial dragons) might blow his cover. There's absolutely no proof that Akainu isn't aware of the actions of a division within his own organisation.


convict said:


> There should be multiple ways of getting intel as incredible as 2 Yonkou allying just like with Shanks. Fact is. He was weary of the Wano samurai specifically. He mentioned that.


What are these "multiple ways" you speak of? When exactly did Shanks know about Kaido and Big mom alliance, not that it matters as he atleast as a plausible source of information within Wano (Law). Yes, he is weary of the Wano Samurai (plural) for reasons unspecified, but more likely to do with the recent example of Wano's strength (Oden) than a legend no one outside of Wano really has any ideas about.


convict said:


> Ryuuma's singlehanded legacy of demolishing all external threats created so much trauma to the government that even to this day they feel Wano is a powerhouse country of fierce warriors. This just adds to my argument.


Baseless in the context of Akainu's statement.


convict said:


> The Kizaru/Rayleigh thing is irrelevant as Kizaru outright states he wants to go to Wano to face Kaido and Big Mom but Akainu stops him due to the samurai


It isn't irrelevant though. Kizaru's mission would be to stop those two from meeting or disrupt a potential meeting of those two, same way the Marines tried to stop WB and Shanks from meeting. It clearly isn't a capture mission which would actually require him to defeat them


Unless the suggestion is that Kizaru stands a chance against two Yonkos .... I hope that isn't the argument here.


convict said:


> Once again. Giving the exploits of the guy who literally fought off and kept Wano closed off from the government all his life and whose legacy kept it closed off for centuries to the guy who ran away from Wano the first stranger he met and wanted who wanted to open its borders.


Once again, A more recent example was a guy who came out of Wano and gained enough repute to be remembered as being on relative parity with the legends, especially in Akainu's lifetime. Not saying I'm absolutely correct, but that seems way more plausible.


convict said:


> Marvelous and expected


Okay.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 13, 2022)

Damn son


----------



## o0Shinthi0o (Mar 13, 2022)

I am sorry but did Akainu said he is afraid of Samurai *because* there used to be a Sword God in that place & they  have PTSD ?  I do not remember that chapter that well .

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> Honestly I don't see a problem with Zoro surpassing Roger's combat power EOS if he has Ryuma reincarnate, since Luffy is Joyboy reincarnate who would likely be > Ryuma and Roger.
> 
> As long as the M3 Luffy > Zoro > Sanji dynamic remains, I think it is entirely possible for Zoro to surpass Roger in combat, or rival.



The notion that only Luffy can surpass Roger and even barely at that has long since been demolished since we learned about Roger ultimately failing his quest and being just a stepping stool for the true Joyboy.

The Strawhats aren't just going to surpass but eclipse the Roger Pirates. Zoro will definitely be at that level. Pirate King crew isn't enough to topple the world government you need something more.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> I am sorry but did Akainu said he is afraid of Samurai *because* there used to be a Sword God in that place & they  have PTSD ?  I do not remember that chapter that well .


Sword-Piece


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> I am sorry but did Akainu said he is afraid of Samurai *because* there used to be a Sword God in that place & they  have PTSD ?  I do not remember that chapter that well .


Akainu was afraid of the samurai's strength. Gyukimaru told us Ryuma showed to the whole world the strength of the samurai and drove the WG away.

Reactions: Winner 5


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

I have my own thoughts on Luffy surpassing Roger, though that would be way too off topic.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 13, 2022)

Akainu never said he was afraid of the Samurai.

If none of the pirates present were there, the Navy would take a big fat dump of shit on top of Wano and burn it to the ground while cutting off their top knots.

It would literally be the ending of _The Last Samurai. _And I loved that fucking movie man.


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> I am sorry but did Akainu said he is afraid of Samurai *because* there used to be a Sword God in that place & they  have PTSD ?  I do not remember that chapter that well .



He said it because of unknown powerful samurai forces. There is a reason Wano was not invaded for 100s of years and that was Ryuuma. Even if he individually is not known, it is still known that the government tried and tried and got wrecked when they tried to take over Wano. That is why even NOW they don't attempt to do so because of mysterious forces which has been explained in the manga as simply Ryuuma. Oden was a known quantity. His exploits were heralded outside Wano. Ryuuma was not. Hence the "mysterious unknown" powers of Wano were simply Ryuuma and his legacy.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 13, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> I am sorry but did Akainu said he is afraid of Samurai *because* there used to be a Sword God in that place & they  have PTSD ?  I do not remember that chapter that well .



No but Yonko WSC Kaido had PTSD from a third rate low budget version of Ryuuma named Oden,  that's all that matters

Reactions: Funny 6


----------



## Lmao (Mar 13, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Since it's your argument that the more parts of the world a character has sailed/visited = the stronger said character is, it's actually you who is clinging to it.


My argument is based on Mihawk's statement, surely the guy that is currently the verse sword god would know a thing or two.

Ryuma can be scaled to top tier but that's about it, PK tier is a stretch and above it is straight up fanfic.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> He said it because of unknown powerful samurai forces. There is a reason Wano was not invaded for 100s of years and that was Ryuuma. Even if he individually is not known, it is still know that the government tried and tried and got wrecked when they tried to take over Wano. That is why even NOW they don't attempt to do so because of mysterious forces which has been explained in the manga as simply Ryuuma.


>Akainu believes Wano Samurai are strong 
>Akainu doesn't know who Ryuuma is 
>Akainu remembers exactly who Oden was 

This shit ain't rocket science people

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Djomla (Mar 13, 2022)

9 Zoro fans so far.


----------



## MrPopo (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> The notion that only Luffy can surpass Roger and even barely at that has long since been demolished since we learned about Roger ultimately failing his quest and being just a stepping stool for the true Joyboy.
> 
> The Strawhats aren't just going to surpass but eclipse the Roger Pirates. Zoro will definitely be at that level. Pirate King crew isn't enough to topple the world government you need something more.


That's subjective and comes down to how the final war will go down. 

Zoro will surpass Mihawk/Rayleigh its possible he could surpass Roger but it's not guaranteed like with Luffy


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Or maybe Drake is undercover and going light on him compared to him peers (especially on orders of the Celestial dragons) might blow his cover. There's absolutely no proof that Akainu isn't aware of the actions of a division within his own organisation.
> 
> *What are these "multiple ways" you speak of? When exactly did Shanks know about Kaido and Big mom alliance, not that it matters as he atleast as a plausible source of information within Wano (Law). Yes, he is weary of the Wano Samurai (plural) for reasons unspecified, but more likely to do with the recent example of Wano's strength (Oden) than a legend no one outside of Wano really has any ideas about.*
> 
> ...



Yeah sure man Akainu knows and will put Coby in to his super secret spy division as he trusts him so much. It has been hammered into us that the Fleet Admiral at the end of the day is still a pawn and subservient to the WG. A super secret division outside his jurisdiction is expected.

And I was talking about Shanks entering WB's territory  


Why do you keep harping about Akainu's intel coming from Drake as if he would know everything about Wano from Drake when he HIMSELF stated that he doesn't know how strong these mysterious samurai are? What is wrong with you? Akainu doesn't have proper intel on the samurai that is in the manga just drop that argument.



> >Akainu believes Wano Samurai are strong
> >Akainu doesn't know who Ryuuma is
> >Akainu remembers exactly who Oden was
> 
> This shit ain't rocket science people



So whatever I just said flew over your head as usual huh?

Akainu wasn't sure how strong the Wano samurai were. Why not? Maybe because the WG didn't go near Wano for centuries. Was there a reason for it? YES. Guess what that reason was. Hint: It wasn't the guy who welcomed outsiders with open arms and died 20 years ago.

Ok. Nothing more to add. That is the problem with you always get into the same repetitive, circular pattern.




MrPopo said:


> *That's subjective and comes down to how the final war will go down.*
> 
> Zoro will surpass Mihawk/Rayleigh its possible he could surpass Roger but it's not guaranteed like with Luffy



Nothing else to say except yes. It is speculation. As would befall any thread involving Ryuuma.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MrPopo (Mar 13, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Akainu never said he was afraid of the Samurai.
> 
> If none of the pirates present were there, the Navy would take a big fat dump of shit on top of Wano and burn it to the ground while cutting off their top knots.
> 
> It would literally be the ending of _The Last Samurai. _And I loved that fucking movie man.


This was already confrimed when the wg was only willing to annex wano if kadio lost no mention of the samurai what so ever


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> I have my own thoughts on Luffy surpassing Roger, though that would be way too off topic.


It's shounen.

Luffy will reach or surpass Joyboy.

Same thing for Zoro and Ryuma.

Reactions: Neutral 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> Yeah sure man Akainu knows and will put Coby in to his super secret spy division as he trusts him so much. It has been hammered into us that the Fleet Admiral at the end of the day is still a pawn and subservient to the WG. A super secret division outside his jurisdiction is expected.


By all accounts, Coby has grown leaps and bounds since the timeskip. Why exactly would Akainu care as long as Coby can do his job. Also not sure how relevant it is that the WG (i.e. Akainu's bosses) especially when Sword is a subordinate organisation.


convict said:


> And I was talking about Shanks entering WB's territory


???? And how exactly is that relevant to this discourse? Also weren't the WG tapping the phones of all the Yonko to know when they wanted to meet (which is a different thing from starting an alliance)


convict said:


> Why do you keep harping about Akainu's intel coming from Drake as if he would know everything about Wano from Drake when he HIMSELF stated that he doesn't know how strong these mysterious samurai are? What is wrong with you? Akainu doesn't have proper intel on the samurai that is in the manga just drop that argument.


Drake himself knew that Wano samurai were enslaved by Orochi. The one instance where he saw what their strength could have been was courtesy of a virus that returned one of said Samurais back into his prime self.



convict said:


> So whatever I just said flew over your head as usual huh?
> 
> Akainu wasn't sure how strong the Wano samurai were. Why not? Maybe because the WG didn't go near Wano for centuries. Was there a reason for it? YES. Guess what that reason was. Hint: It wasn't the guy who welcomed outsiders with open arms and died 20 years ago.
> 
> Ok. Nothing more to add. That is the problem with you always get into the same repetitive, circular pattern


It's a good thing Oden didn't welcome outsiders with an open arm. If anything he just wanted to get out of there. Apart from that, virtually nothing here addressed my point in any meaningful way. As expected.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 13, 2022)

What Akainu expected


*Spoiler*: __ 



























What Akainu didn't know


*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Funny 10


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Come on his way of welcoming outsiders was a friendly duel. In order to escape with them he had to be welcoming what are you even attempting to argue that Oden wasn't happy and welcoming to the Whitebeards.

I am sure the WG's fear of Wano and refusal to go near it for 100s of years even before Oden was born somehow was not because of Ryuuma either. Must have been something in the air telling them not to mess with this place as in a few decades this guy named Oden 2nd division commander of the Whitebeard Pirates would mess them all up if they did.



Mihawk said:


> What Akainu expected
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



You joke but that you have literally hit the money.

Ryuuma put so much fear in them for centuries that they thought some major players were still lingering and they didn't realize those mighty samurai were getting cucked by a spineless weakling for decades. If the government had actually known that the Ryuuma level threat was long gone things would have been different.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> The notion that only Luffy can surpass Roger and even barely at that has long since been demolished since we learned about Roger ultimately failing his quest and being just a stepping stool for the true Joyboy.
> 
> The Strawhats aren't just going to surpass but eclipse the Roger Pirates. Zoro will definitely be at that level. Pirate King crew isn't enough to topple the world government you need something more.


Last time I checked the person who was aiming to become Pirate King and the man who will be fighting Blackbeard is named Monkey D. Luffy not Zoro there’s only two people living in the verse who will surpass Roger and that’s Luffy/Blackbeard.

Also your implication is faulty as long as the crews best fighters reach at least Admiral/Yonko tier they’ll be sufficient and I’ll reiterate this point no one else is going to be fighting a Roger level threat except for Luffy.


----------



## Corax (Mar 13, 2022)

DeVision said:


> Ryuma lived 400 years ago.
> Void century = 800 years ago.


Do you have a source?But even if so Ryuma was the sole reason WG didn't want to mess with Wano. I guess this gives him legendary status.


----------



## o0Shinthi0o (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> The notion that only Luffy can surpass Roger and even barely at that has long since been demolished since we learned about Roger ultimately failing his quest and being just a stepping stool for the true Joyboy.
> 
> The Strawhats aren't just going to surpass but eclipse the Roger Pirates. Zoro will definitely be at that level. *Pirate King crew isn't enough to topple the world government you need something more*.


Good thing Luffy has tons strong people following him not just SHs


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

It's funny how everyone keeps talking about Ryuuma traumatizing the WG while ignoring the fact that despite Kaido literally being in his most vulnerable state, the WG, with its fleet assembled to take Wano won't dare advance without confirmation of his defeat.

Again, Ryuuma's hype at best places him in the company of the Yonko. Anything more is baseless wank.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Good thing Luffy has tons strong people following him not just SHs



Also good thing his crew will eclipse the Pirate King's crew and do things they could never accomplish.


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> Also good thing his crew will eclipse the Pirate King's crew and *do things they could never accomplish*.


Yeah. Probably has more to do with the fact that Luffy has several armies worth of allies whereas the Roger Crew weren't on good terms with .... 99.9% of folks basically.


----------



## Steven (Mar 13, 2022)

Ryuma is hard featless


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Yeah. Probably has more to do with the fact that Luffy has several armies worth of allies whereas the Roger Crew weren't on good terms with .... 99.9% of folks basically.



Yes of course. Luffy's crew won't have anything to do with it. Luffy will eclipse Roger but the rest of them won't eclipse their peers in the Roger pirates for sure.

People keep harping on this PK tier as if it is so much beyond Yonkou level when both Sengoku and Garp could match up to Roger just fine. They are a hair above Yonkou level.


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> Yes of course. Luffy's crew won't have anything to do with it. Luffy will eclipse Roger but the rest of them won't eclipse their peers in the Roger pirates for sure.
> 
> *People keep harping on this PK tier as if it is so much beyond Yonkou level when both Sengoku and Garp could match up to Roger just fine. They are a hair above Yonkou level.*


You know it's ironic how we agree on on lot of things yet somehow are always on opposite sides
Case in point, @bolded. I don't personally believe in "PK tier". It's nonsense in my view considering the context of how and why Roger became PK.

As for the rest, notice how I said "more to do" i.e. while it's probably that Luffy's crew is generally stronger than Roger's crew, their surpassing Roger's achievement will have much more to do with their ability to make long lasting, ride or die alliance on a global scale.


----------



## o0Shinthi0o (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> Also good thing his crew will eclipse the Pirate King's crew and do things they could never accomplish.


Yea , having 2 Yonkou lvl crew member really is something & help PK Luffy a ton


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Yea , having 2 Yonkou lvl crew member really is something & help PK Luffy a ton


Jinbei will reach Yonkou level?

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Yea , having 2 Yonkou lvl crew member really is something & help PK Luffy a ton



A PK level crew-member and another possibly 2 who are admiral level


----------



## o0Shinthi0o (Mar 13, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Jinbei will reach Yonkou level?


Yea , Jinbei & Sanji . While Zoro will die here in wano , sad times

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

There's no such thing as PK level

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## o0Shinthi0o (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> *A PK level crew-member* and another possibly 2 who are admiral level


Dude , for the 100th time Law is not gonna join SH

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Yea , Jinbei & Sanji . *While Zoro will die here in wano* , sad times


He'll make sure to take a dragon with him

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Dude , for the 100th time Law is not gonna join SH



I agree hence I didn't mention a Yonkou first mate level in my list



Kroczilla said:


> There's no such thing as PK level



That is something I can jive with.

Roger/Primebeard
Kaido
Shanks/Big Mom

As pure top tiers. At the end of the day if you agree Ryuuma is Kaido-ish level our overall difference in ranking is minimal.


----------



## MrPopo (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> A PK level crew-member and another possibly 2 who are admiral level


Never knew you were Yamato 4 nakama


----------



## Captain Quincy (Mar 13, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Ryuma uses a sword. WB doesn't.


Naginata's are swords. It means mowing down sword.


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Never knew you were Yamato 4 nakama



I used to be but there is a growing sense from me that she will temporarily pause her dreams to travel so that she holds down the fort in Wano for a while to keep it safe out of her own volition. And that she will journey outside after Momo is ready to take up the role of protector fully.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Mar 13, 2022)

EOS SHs:
Luffy > Joyboy > Roger > Yonko. Luffy mid to low diffs Yonko/Admirals.
Zoro > Roger > Yonko. Zoro high to mid diffs Yonko/Admirals.
Sanji = Roger > Yonko. Sanji high diffs Yonko/Admirals.
Yamato = Yonko. Yamato = Kaido, extreme diffs Yonko/Admirals.

EOS Luffy will have one Godly swordsman, one Roger tier cook and one Yonko level Oni in his crew.

This ,alongside the other SHs and his alliance, would be the force to topping the World Government.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## o0Shinthi0o (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> I agree hence I didn't mention a Yonkou first mate level in my list


Dude u r confusing Zoro with Law  again


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Dude u r confusing Zoro with Law  again



Ok this is getting old

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## o0Shinthi0o (Mar 13, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> He'll make sure to take a dragon with him


# momodeservedit

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Mar 13, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> He'll make sure to take a dragon with him


Posts like these are sure going to look hilarious when this doesn’t happen and Zoro stays comatose until the fighting is over and a certain group of people are going to look incredibly delusional.


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Posts like these are sure going to look hilarious when this doesn’t happen and Zoro stays comatose until the fighting is over and a certain group of people are going to look incredibly delusional.


Hope dies last


----------



## The crazy hacker (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> Yes of course. Luffy's crew won't have anything to do with it. Luffy will eclipse Roger but the rest of them won't eclipse their peers in the Roger pirates for sure.
> 
> People keep harping on this PK tier as if it is so much beyond Yonkou level when both Sengoku and Garp could match up to Roger just fine. They are a hair above Yonkou level.


But you have Old Wb being the strongest pirate and he was significantly weaker than his prime forms. So i think there should be a gap between the Yonkou and PK level guys.


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> But you have Old Wb being the strongest pirate and he was significantly weaker than his prime forms. So i think there should be a gap between the Yonkou and PK level guys.



Nah I used to think that back in the day but Kaido tops for sure for me. I have Oldbeard relative to Prime Ray or Shanks.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

there is nothing to indicate Ryuuma is even stronger than Mihawk, much less Primebeard


also Shusui is a 21-grade black blade
Yoru is as 12-grade (higher grade) black blade

so by that metric at least Mihawk > Ryuuma

Reactions: Agree 4


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

Amol said:


> The barman of bar in which Nami sat after TS outright told that Akainu was the very first FA who took Marines deep inside New World to challenge pirates. That means Marines never even had a serious presence in New World before Akainu.


this and also it was confirmed (by Jinbei?) that post-TS Marines under Akainu are the strongest the Marines have ever been

current era > 400 years ago era
current Marines > pre-skip Marines > 400 years ago Marines

this is also *the *peak of piracy (Golden age started by Roger, wor st gen, yonkou ruling the NW), 400 years ago you had ~Noland instead

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> this and also it was confirmed (by Jinbei?) that post-TS Marines under Akainu are the strongest the Marines have ever been
> 
> current era > 400 years ago era
> current Marines > pre-skip Marines > 400 years ago Marines
> ...



This is the peak of piracy yet somehow everyone agrees current top pirates don't hold a candle to the top of the previous generation


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 13, 2022)

_You guys are probably going a bit overboard with the scaling.

If Joy Boy was this incredibly powerful individual in his time, he was probably still "just" a Roger/Prime WB level guy.

After all Roger's problem wasn't that he was not strong enough, but that he made it too early at the finish line for the world around him to meet the conditions of the prophecy.


Not sure where to place Ryuma. Top Tier is safe, and stronger than Oden is fairly safe as well. Maybe in line with the current Yonko will be the best bet.


I don't think Oda will allow any SH other than Luffy to surpass Roger. Honestly Zoro can eventually become as strong as current Kaido and that would be plenty looking at what Kaido could pull off. Basically the strongest within the Yonko range.

Add Sanji as another Top Tier not that much weaker and maybe Yamato as well and you get a line up more than capable of taking on the Marine's strongest forces EoS, and with the support of their many allies the WG as a whole  _

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> This is the peak of piracy yet somehow everyone agrees current top pirates don't hold a candle to the top of the previous generation


because its not over yet

the wor st gen will hit their peak and surpass the void C legends,  much less Roger & Co.


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> because its not over yet
> 
> the wor st gen will hit their peak and surpass the void C legends,  much less Roger & Co.



I mean it was going on for decades. The only reason this new generation will surpass the old is because of reincarnated Joyboy not because of any other crew surpassing Roger/WB due to the age of piracy.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> I mean it was going on for decades. The only reason the worst generation will surpass the old is because of reincarnated Joyboy not because of any other crew surpassing Roger/WB due to the age of piracy.


BB will surpass them too


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> BB will surpass them too



But he is also known to be part of the worst generation starting just a couple years ago. Not part of the generation that ran wild since the great age of piracy as he was biding his time. So the argument for the current status quo being superior to prior does not fly. Sure the future pirates led by joyboy and BB will be the strongest.


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 13, 2022)

_Roger > Luffy

Man got shit luck catching a deadly disease and still made it and became the PK without being the chosen one Joy Boy reincarnation   _


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

@convict the point was that I have no real reason to be impressed by any of the ~400 years ago forces that Ryuuma might have defeated (whether they were WG or pirates)
unless that ever gets elaborated upon


his legendary dragon slaying feat is also kinda worthless if that dragon was anywhere close in power to the PH fodder dragon

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## TheWiggian (Mar 13, 2022)

Lmao said:


> My argument is based on Mihawk's statement, surely the guy that is currently the verse sword god would know a thing or two.



Mihawk is the WSS he has yet to be addressed as a god. Ryuma was the strongest of his time, Mihawk isn't.



Lmao said:


> Ryuma can be scaled to top tier but that's about it, PK tier is a stretch and *above it is straight up fanfic.*



Ryuma managed something no one else did. He completely repelled any force that tried to take over his territory to the point of them not trying for centuries, even after his death. WB's islands in comparison were immediately taken away after his death.

Bolded is purely subjective and just shows how biased you are.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> The marines were unable to go after Ace because he was under Whitebeards protection



and then they executed ace and defeated the Whitebeard pirates in war

Let me know when the marines want to fight the Wano samurai.

not to mention the second Whitebeard died, everyone was taking his territory like it was free real estate. Nobody was touching Wano centuries after ryuma died.

Whitebeard isn’t comparable to ryuma

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> and then they executed ace and defeated the Whitebeard pirates in war
> 
> Let me know when the marines want to fight the Wano samurai


How about the Wano Samurai leave their stronghold with natural barriers and make their way to the WG's place of strength?


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Mar 13, 2022)

All these talk about Joyboy and Ryuma incarnations.

Now what will Sanji get? Sora reincarnation?


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> How about the Wano Samurai leave their stronghold with natural barriers and make their way to the WG's place of strength?



the Wano samurai aren’t feared because of natural barriers though, they are feared because of ryuma’s strength. So unless you’re implying ryuma’s strength gets weaker when he leaves Wano, then the marines won’t fight him whether he’s on Wano or not


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> the Wano samurai aren’t feared because of natural barriers though, they are feared because of ryuma’s strength. So unless you’re implying ryuma’s strength gets weaker when he leaves Wano, then the marines won’t fight him whether he’s on Wano or not


The hype behind Ryuuma's strength is no better than the hype behind Kaido's. We don't know the quality of opponents Ryuuma fought in his lifetime.  Based on all that, the best we can place him at is Yonko lvl.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> The hype behind Ryuuma's strength is no better than the hype behind Kaido's. We don't know the quality of opponents Ryuuma fought in his lifetime.  Based on all that, the best we can place him at is Yonko lvl.



How is it no better than kaido’s?

first of all, Kaido grouped prime Oden with primebeard. Wano views ryuma as stronger than Oden.

second of all, the marines would have no problem invading Wano if Kaido was dead. However they still refuse to invade Wano centuries after ryuma died.


----------



## MrPopo (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> and then they executed ace and defeated the Whitebeard pirates in war


Only because Blackbeard gave them Ace and they could fight Whitebeard on their terms and on their turf


A Optimistic said:


> Let me know when the marines want to fight the Wano samurai.


Marines have no issue fighting wano samurai its wano being a natural fortress and kaido residing in that is the issue 


A Optimistic said:


> not to mention the second Whitebeard died, everyone was taking his territory like it was free real estate. Nobody was touching Wano centuries after ryuma died.
> 
> Whitebeard isn’t comparable to ryuma


Whitebeards terrories aren't natural fortresses and whitebeard doesn't represent a nation


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Only because Blackbeard gave them Ace and they could fight Whitebeard on their terms and on their turf



so prove that the marines would be willing to fight ryuma on their turf



MrPopo said:


> Marines have no issue fighting wano samurai its wano being a natural fortress and kaido residing in that is the issue



Post the panel where akainu told kizaru that’s he is willing to fight Wano samurai and the only reason he’s not sending out kizaru is because Wano is a natural fortress. I don’t seem to recall akainu having this conversation with kizaru. I seem to recall akainu commanding kizaru to stand down because of the reputation of the samurai 




MrPopo said:


> Whitebeards terrories aren't natural fortresses and whitebeard doesn't represent a nation



We were specifically told that people avoided Wano because of ryuma, it has nothing to do with Wano being a fortress. So if ryuma’s corpse can keep people away while whitebeard’s corpse is unable to accomplish the same feat, then that means ryuma > Whitebeard

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

Ryuuma wank only exists because of Zoro

legion aint being subtle

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> so prove that the marines would be willing to fight ryuma on their turf
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The last point is kind of nonsensical considering everyone saw WB and his crew get decimated on live TV. Meanwhile Ryuma represented the samurai as a whole; how they were so strong, no one should mess with them. If they saw the raid and how weak the samurai really are, you'd have pirates and nobles lining up for Wano once again.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> How is it no better than kaido’s?


Ryuuma's best hype is being a sole deterrent against WG incursion into Wano. Kaido is same.


A Optimistic said:


> first of all, Kaido grouped prime Oden with primebeard. Wano views ryuma as stronger than Oden.


Ryuuma is viewed as having more legendary feats than Oden. Oden for the most part had nothing much to do in Wano


A Optimistic said:


> second of all, the marines would have no problem invading Wano if Kaido was dead. However they still refuse to invade Wano centuries after ryuma died


Probably coz they think Wano is filled with super strong Samurai (Oden's time as a pirate likely helped enhance this view). Kaido on the other hand is a one of a kind monster


----------



## MrPopo (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> so prove that the marines would be willing to fight ryuma on their turf


The marines were willing to fight the world strongest man and his crew on thier on turf but Ryuma on his own would be to much for the marines ?


A Optimistic said:


> Post the panel where akainu told kizaru that’s he is willing to fight Wano samurai and the only reason he’s not sending out kizaru is because Wano is a natural fortress. I don’t seem to recall akainu having this conversation with kizaru. I seem to recall akainu commanding kizaru to stand down because of the reputation of the samurai


Kaido wanted to move onigashma to the flower capital so that he could use wano as a natural fortress against the navy/wg.



A Optimistic said:


> We were specifically told that people avoided Wano because of ryuma, it has nothing to do with Wano being a fortress. So if ryuma’s corpse can keep people away while whitebeard’s corpse is unable to accomplish the same feat, then that means ryuma > Whitebeard


Now you're being disingenuous we knew sailing up to wano itself is a difficult task let a lone conquering the island


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Ryuuma's best hype is being a sole deterrent against WG incursion into Wano. Kaido is same.



kaido’s best hype is the world government refuses to attack Wano until he’s dead/defeated 

ryuma’s best hype is the world government AND the marines refuse to attack Wano even after he’s dead

when have you see the marines say the reason they won’t go to Wano is because of Kaido? You would need to provide a panel if you’re gonna claim that Ryuma and Kaido have the same hype. We saw akainu’s conversation with kizaru, kaido’s name did not come up. Only the samurai did 

At the end of the day, Ryuma was considered a god meanwhile people like Roger and primebeard were only pirate king level. How can a mere king compare to a God?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> The marines were willing to fight the world strongest man and his crew on thier on turf but Ryuma on his own would be to much for the marines ?



yes that’s correct. Why is a god being superior to a king so surprising?



MrPopo said:


> Kaido wanted to move onigashma to the flower capital so that he could use wano as a natural fortress against the navy/wg.



I asked you to post the panel of akainu telling kizaru that he doesn’t want the marines to attack Wano because of Kaido or because Wano is a fortress. Why are you refusing to post it? You made the claim, post it.



MrPopo said:


> Now you're being disingenuous we knew sailing up to wano itself is a difficult task let a lone conquering the island



you’re refusing to post a panel of a marine stating they won’t attack Wano because of Kaido or because it’s a fortress and I’m the disingenuous one?

 

show me what akainu thinks about invading Wano if you’re so confident that it’s not because of Ryuma

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> kaido’s best hype is the world government refuses to attack Wano until he’s dead/defeated
> 
> ryuma’s best hype is the world government AND the marines refuse to attack Wano even after he’s dead
> 
> ...


The WG doesn't attack because they believe there are others like Ryuuma or Oden. They believe that Wano is filled with top tier swordsmen.

That's what Akainu was afraid of, Samurais (PLURAL), as in an undeterminable amount of them whom they believe to be all very strong. That speaks to the WG's gullibility than any hype of Ryuuma as it turned out to be a complete faux with Kaido pointing that out himself

As for Ryuuma being called God, so has Ussop and Enel, so he's in pretty famous company


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

I just remembered there was one marine ship that didn’t hesitate to chase primebeard during oden’s flashback

meanwhile the fleet admiral refuses to offend ryuma’s corpse

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> I just remembered there was one marine ship that didn’t hesitate to chase primebeard during oden’s flashback
> 
> meanwhile the fleet admiral refuses to offend ryuma’s corpse


Ryuma best feat is slaying a dragon, and only slaying down fodders.
Akainu was hesitant  because of multiple wano samurai's , you gotta be on something if you actually think a featless character like ryuma is over primebeard. He's above mihawk tho


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

>Ava wanks Ryuuma

Im shocked


----------



## MO (Mar 13, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Zoro as the strongest swordsman ever will surpass or at least reach Roger


no, he is not. lool.


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Ryuma best feat is slaying a dragon, and only slaying down fodders.
> Akainu was hesitant  because of multiple wano samurai's , you gotta be on something if you actually think a featless character like ryuma is over primebeard. He's above mihawk tho



one marine ship from a weaker generation of marines was confident enough to challenge primebeard during oden’s flashback, do you deny this?

the current fleet admiral leading the strongest iteration of the marines is refusing to offend ryuma’s corpse, do you deny this?

ryuma > primebeard

Akainu never said shit about multiple Wano samurai. The story was told to Zoro during Wano clearly, it’s only one Wano samurai that causes this widespread fear and panic

show me where it says MULTIPLE samurai in this panel. This is only about one samurai. The entire world is terrified of ONE samurai.


----------



## MO (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> You clearly appear to be the least biased poster here. Your post drips with neutrality and rationality as it always does in matters with Zoro. Thank you for fighting the good fight against those irredeemable toxic Zoro stans.


He said nothing but facts tho.


----------



## MrPopo (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> yes that’s correct. Why is a god being superior to a king so surprising?


You cant be serious 


A Optimistic said:


> I asked you to post the panel of akainu telling kizaru that he doesn’t want the marines to attack Wano because of Kaido or because Wano is a fortress. Why are you refusing to post it? You made the claim, post it.


Orochi claims wano is untouchable because of Kaidos backing

Kaido wants to use wano to wage war against the marines as it is a natural fortress

WG would only annex Wano if Kaido lost



A Optimistic said:


> you’re refusing to post a panel of a marine stating they won’t attack Wano because of Kaido or because it’s a fortress and I’m the disingenuous one?


Kaido wants to use wano as his base of operations to wage war against the wg  because it is a natural fortress with a choke point for entry . The wg would only annex wano if Kaido lost both are reasons as to why wano hasn't been touched.



A Optimistic said:


> show me what akainu thinks about invading Wano if you’re so confident that it’s not because of Ryuma


Already saw what his superiors think about it


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> You cant be serious
> 
> Orochi claims wano is untouchable because of Kaidos backing
> 
> ...



still no panel of akainu telling kizaru he won’t invade Wano because it’s a fortress. Strange how you’re arguing about the marines but insist on only posting panels of people who are not marines. Why is that?


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> one* marine ship* from a weaker generation was confident enough to challenge primebeard during oden’s flashback, do you deny this?


Nowhere when talking about ryuma did gyukimaru say the navy tried to capture wano terrority, only the world government , no reason to bring that up, the marine ship is just doing his job. This is like saying Boa hancock>Whitebeard muh bcuz more ships.!



A Optimistic said:


> the current fleet admiral leading the strongest iteration of the marines is refusing to offend ryuma’s corpse, do you deny this?



Sakazuki was worried about the wano's forces and the samurai, he thinks wano has a bunch of strong samurai's.





A Optimistic said:


> Akainu never said shit about multiple Wano samurai. The story was told to Zoro during Wano clearly, it’s only one Wano samurai that causes this widespread fear and panic


Just showed you he did.


Ryuma greatest feat, is defeating a dragon. Something PH Zoro was able to accomplish. Which means the dragon he faced>Pirates, Nobles.


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Nowhere when talking about ryuma did gyukimaru say the navy tried to capture wano terrority, only the world government



lol, so now you’re claiming ryuma never fought the marines 

I don’t know if you know this, but the marines kind of work for the world government. And akainu being worried about the samurai clearly indicates a samurai kicked some marine ass in the past 

burden of proof is on you to show that marines were never sent to Wano. I’m not gonna entertain your fan fiction


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> lol, so now you’re claiming ryuma never fought the marines


"Pirates lusted after it, world nobles desired to rule it." Interesting how he can mention pirates but not marines.



A Optimistic said:


> I don’t know if you know this, but the marines kind of work for the world government. And akainu being worried about the samurai clearly indicates a samurai kicked some marine ass in the past


I know, they do, cipher pols, warlords, marines are all apart of the WG, yet never mentioned when talking about ryma, isn't that funny? 

Akainu thinks wano has a military force, of ryuma level samurai's. Along with kaido.   Now stop making up headcannon that he beat marines. His greatest feat is cutting a dragon, meaning the pirates, and the world nobles were clearly fodder.


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Pirates lusted after it, world nobles desired to rule it." Interesting how he can mention pirates but not marines.



who works for the world nobles? I’ll give you 3 guesses 

let’s see if you can figure it out


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> who works for the world nobles? I’ll give you 3 guesses


Bro, we  have no clue if the marines even existed 400 years ago. Ion know what to tell you man.


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Bro, we  have no clue if the marines even existed 400 years ago. Ion know what to tell you man.



the world government has been in power for the last 800 years 

now you have two options, you can pretend that the marines didn’t exist 400 years ago, which means the world government stayed in power for 400 years without marine help. Since you love defending the marines, I doubt you will go with this option  

or you can admit that the marines have existed since the founding of the world government 800 years ago. And therefore ryuma defeated them at some point along with any pirates who tried taking over Wano as well

tough situation for you, isn’t it? Either way you’re gonna have to accept one of those ugly truths


----------



## MrPopo (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> still no panel of akainu telling kizaru he won’t invade Wano because it’s a fortress. Strange how you’re arguing about the marines but insist on only posting panels of people who are not marines. Why is that?


The marines work the wg and the wg would only invade Wano if Kaido lost no mention of the samurai what so ever. This means that the wano samurai on their own isn't as big of a deterrent to wg/navy and the major force of opposition is Kaido 

Kaido wants to use wano as his base of operations to wage war against wg/navy its pretty clear that the geography of Wano gives it protection from would be attackers.

Thus the marines have no issues fighting the wano samurai on their own


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> the world government has been in power for the last 800 years





A Optimistic said:


> now you have two options, you can pretend that the marines didn’t exist 400 years ago, which means the world government stayed in power for 400 years without marine help. Since you love defending the marines, I doubt you will go with this option


Well, originally they didn't need the marines. As the world government was founded through the ancient alliances. 
 "世界 貴族共..." Google what that means bud, this is the folklore of ryuma, no marines mention.


A Optimistic said:


> or you can admit that the marines have existed since the founding of the world government 800 years ago. And therefore ryuma defeated them at some point along with any pirates who tried taking over Wano as well


 he could've fought the marines if they existed, but his legend doesnt say that.  The World Government doesn't have to send marines, for example look at fuji, greenbull, before they were marines, they were people in  the world government without being marines 

Again, we clearly know the people he fought was fodder, if his greatest and most memorable feat was cutting down a dragon.


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

MO said:


> He said nothing but facts tho.



In a thread involving Zoro there is a biased legion but there is also certain - massive - quantity of opposers reeked in bias or hate who pat each others' backs. Them congratulating each other is neither here nor there for me.

Unfortunately that is the way of things but here we are.

You can't tell me someone of Ryuuma's legacy and reputation being stronger than anyone alive currently is illiterate and impossible. Luckily I do think if any arc will expand on Ryuuma it will be current so maybe we will find out soon.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

“The marines didn’t exist for 400 years of world government rule”

nice cope bro, have a good day


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> “The marines didn’t exist for 400 years of world government rule”
> 
> nice cope bro, have a good day




Sorry, im not using headcannon on this one. Seems like you have no answer, again this is what stated in ryuma legend. "pirates and nobles." greenbull and fuji are perfect proof you can have non marines fight. Nice to see you have no rebuttal, or manga facts. Enjoy your day


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Sorry, im not using headcannon on this one. Seems like you have no answer, again this is what stated in ryuma legend. "pirates and nobles." greenbull and fuji are perfect proof you can have non marines fight. Nice to see you have no rebuttal, or manga facts. Enjoy your day



nah bro your argument makes no sense

the world noble are able to maintain their power and riches because of the marines. You trying to pretend that the world nobles stayed as world nobles without any marines protecting them for 400 years makes absolutely no sense and you know it.

you’re just too embarrassed to admit that Ryuma defeated the marines so now you’re pretending the marines didn’t exist for 400 years.

we all have our ways of coping with bad news so I won’t judge you for how you deal with this

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> the world noble are able to maintain their power and riches because of the marines. You trying to pretend that the world nobles stayed as world nobles without any marines protecting them for 400 years makes absolutely no sense and you know it.


You're acting the world government only fighting force is the marines. Again Greenbull/Fuji are proof, you dont need to be a marine,  to be a fighting force in the world government.  Ryuma was definitely fighting some trash commander ranks.




A Optimistic said:


> you’re just too embarrassed to admit that Ryuma defeated the marines so now you’re pretending the marines didn’t exist for 400 years.


If he defeated the marines, they would've been here today. Wano is hard to get in to, ryuma has the advantage already just based on that. Marines definitely did not send their strongest.  

Wb with no df is able to equally fight roger, while ryuma greatest feat something PH zoro could accomplish, care to explain again, why Ryuma>Primebeard?


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

Folks might as well come out and tell us that they believe Ryuuma is the strongest character ever. Let's just get it all out there


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

Ryuuwho


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Folks might as well come out and tell us that they believe Ryuuma is the strongest character ever. Let's just get it all out there


Joyboy >= Ryuma is possible.


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Joyboy >= Ryuma is possible.


Nope. Joyboy never left the WG "traumatized"

Reactions: Creative 1


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Folks might as well come out and tell us that they believe Ryuuma is the strongest character ever. Let's just get it all out there



Nope.

Should be Joyboy > Imu > Ryuma.

So third strongest character of all time. Don’t worry I’m not biased.


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Nope.
> 
> Should be Joyboy > Imu > Ryuma.
> 
> So third strongest character of all time. Don’t worry I’m not biased.


None of them left the WG traumatized. Ryuma >>>

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Great Potato (Mar 13, 2022)

I consider Ryuuma having a Black Blade is a pretty big deal, it's telling that the only other person in the franchise who replicated that feat is the current WSS Mihawk. People can try underselling the threats that he faced, but the Black Blade stands as proof that both his haki and his swordsmanship were of the highest level.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Neutral 1


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> I consider Ryuuma having a Black Blade is a pretty big deal, it's telling that the only other person in the franchise who replicated that feat is the current WSS Mihawk. People can try underselling the threats that he faced, but the Black Blade stands as proof that both his haki and his swordsmanship were of the highest level.


Its a good feat, but how is that suppose to put him above primebeard?


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> None of them left the WG traumatized. Ryuma >>>



Joyboy has left the WG traumatized, we saw the Gorosei panicking at the thought of Joyboy being revived a few chapters ago. Imu has the Gorosei shivering in fear and bowing down to him so he also has the WG traumatized.

As you can see, all 3 Gods have the WG scared.

Any other problems with my Joyboy > Imu > Ryuma > everyone else ranking?

I know you wanna portray this as mindless Zoro wanking but you can’t do that if I put Ryuma in third place so what will you do now?

Reactions: Creative 1


----------



## Great Potato (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Its a good feat, but how is that suppose to put him above primebeard?



I don't put Ryuuma above Primebeard

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> I consider Ryuuma having a Black Blade is a pretty big deal, it's telling that the only other person in the franchise who replicated that feat is the current WSS Mihawk. People can try underselling the threats that he faced, but the Black Blade stands as proof that both his haki and his swordsmanship were of the highest level.


Pretty much everyone agrees that Ryuma is a certified top tier. And there's no doubt that making a black blade is no mean feat. However, Mihawk has a black blade yet he isn't some sort of otherworldly top tier like some seem to believe Ryuma to be. 

There's also the biggest problem of us not knowing how black blades are created


----------



## MrPopo (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Nope.
> 
> Should be Joyboy > Imu > Ryuma.
> 
> So third strongest character of all time. Don’t worry I’m not biased.


Joyboy failed how can be strogner than Imu


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> As you can see, all 3 Gods have the WG scared.


How exactly are the world government scared of ryuma if they're  invading Wano right now.

Zuenzshia might even be above him


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

There’s no reason to ever compare mihawk to ryuma 

akainu just sent some marines to capture mihawk. Meanwhile he’s not sending ships after ryuma’s corpse.

ryuma beats mihawk just like he beats primebeard. How can the WSS compare to a god? There’s nobody on Wano worshipping mihawk

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Joyboy failed how can be strogner than Imu



joyboy probably got jumped. You think the world government fights fairly? 

the Gorosei wouldn’t be scared of joyboy returning if they knew their boy imu was stronger than him


----------



## Strobacaxi (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Pretty much everyone agrees that Ryuma is a certified top tier. And there's no doubt that making a black blade is no mean feat. However, Mihawk has a black blade yet he isn't some sort of otherworldly top tier like some seem to believe Ryuma to be.
> 
> There's also the biggest problem of us not knowing how black blades are created


Ryuuma's hype is above Mihawk's tho


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Ryuuma's hype is above Mihawk's tho


How so? 

Edit: it probably is though tbh I consider the Yonko to be above Mihawk so I guess it doesn't affect my wider argument either way.


----------



## Strobacaxi (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> How so?


400 years after his death the marines are still afraid of Wano because of him
Mihawk had to become a shichi so he wouldn't be bothered by marines
Mihawk is also not called Sword god

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Ryuuma's hype is above Mihawk's tho


Both are great swordsmen by official  swordsmen rank, hes only the "sword god." in wano 

Mihawk above him


----------



## SomnusUltima (Mar 13, 2022)

jouboy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ruma

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Both are great swordsmen by official  swordsmen rank, hes only the "sword god." in wano
> 
> Mihawk above him



akainu refused to fight the samurai but he was happy to send ships after mihawk 

we have a direct comparison. Akainu fears ryuma more than mihawk 

you think you know better than your fleet admiral?

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> 400 years after his death the marines are still afraid of Wano because of him
> Mihawk had to become a shichi so he wouldn't be bothered by marines
> Mihawk is also not called Sword god


See above. I did some editing.  But to directly address your point;

- the WG believed Wano to be home to top tier swordsmen. I mean Ryuma definitely contributed loads to that legacy, but I don't think it speaks to his hype in the circumstances of Wano being isolated 

- yeah, Mihawk being a Warlord does him zero favours 

- Sword god is a title exclusive to Wano, a country whose entire culture revolves around swordsmanship. Tbh I don't think that does much for me hype wise.

That said I will concede that overall, Ryuma has more hype, though I've never had Mihawk that high up to begin with.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## MrPopo (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> joyboy probably got jumped. You think the world government fights fairly?


Joyboy had ancient weapons on his side and still lost. The fight is more fair than you think. 



A Optimistic said:


> the Gorosei wouldn’t be scared of joyboy returning if they knew their boy imu was stronger than him


The Gorosei didn't even know what joyboy is they fear the unknown


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> akainu refused to fight the samurai but he was happy to send ships after mihawk


You gotta use some context akainu thought  Beast Pirates + Kaido + Strong Samurai's   of course he was more fearful. 


A Optimistic said:


> we have a direct comparison. Akainu fears ryuma more than mihawk


Ryuma is a "legend, myth." Akainu doesnt actually know how strong he is, like he does with mihawk. We do know both are black blade users and great swordsmen.



A Optimistic said:


> you think you know better than your fleet admiral?


The World Government, is literally sending their ships to wano right now. The gorosei sweated bullets from the mere mentions of Whitebeard name's. They should know


----------



## DeVision (Mar 13, 2022)

*unwatch*


----------



## Seraphoenix (Mar 13, 2022)

Let's see. WB at best could equal Roger, a swordsman. Did Roger have the title of Sword God? Did he have a black blade? Ryuma smokes Pops. 

Ryuma had countless people coming to Wano to challenge him and try and take Wano's treasure. Meanwhile WB was running from fodder marines and didn't want the smoke with Kaido. It's fairly easy to be WSM while on the run, ducking and diving challengers. Entirely different to say, "Here I am, come get some if you want".

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 4


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

I get it now
Ava is just shitposting



Akainu never once said Ryuumas name, neither did any other Marine , they dont give a shit about some old relic

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Man I love mihawk but the “mihawk > Ryuma” argument makes absolutely no sense at all

there are literally marine ships sailing into mihawk’s waters now. The marines didn’t even spare 30 seconds to worry about his strength. Meanwhile akainu is barging into the room to tell Sengoku to shut the fuck up about Wano just from Sengoku telling a story about Wano and ordering kizaru to calm the fuck down at the mere mention of Wano. Ryuma has clearly caused such panic and terror to the world at large that everyone is nervous

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> I get it now
> Ava is just shitposting
> 
> 
> ...



i see this panel wasn’t included in your edition of two piece 

who is the name of the samurai who held off the pirates and world nobles. Unless you want to argue that it’s kinemon and o-Kiku that akainu is scared of?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

WG sent 3x CP0 + some fodder ships with ~VAs to handle  all of Wano with 2 yonkou inside 
so much for Ryuumas hype 


his greatest feat is slaying a PH-tier dragon

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> i see this panel wasn’t included in your edition of two piece
> 
> who is the name of the samurai who held off the pirates and world nobles. Unless you want to argue that it’s kinemon and o-Kiku that akainu is scared of?


dont see Akainu in that panel


Akainu is not scared of anyone or anything in the world, as the FA he was being cautious due to lacking intel on Wanos military force
THat makes him a good FA


----------



## Seraphoenix (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> dont see Akainu in that panel
> 
> 
> Akainu is not scared of anyone or anything in the world, as the FA he was being cautious due to lacking intel on Wanos military force
> THat makes him a good FA



That's the face of fear. Luckily for him Shanks had no intent to kill and spared him.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> dont see Akainu in that panel
> 
> 
> Akainu is not scared of anyone or anything in the world, as the FA he was being cautious due to lacking intel on Wanos military force
> THat makes him a good FA



so tell us which samurai akainu was concerned about, here’s your options:

1) ryuma 

2) kinemon

3) o-Kiku 

akainu said he was worried about some samurai so don’t dodge the question, which samurai is it?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> That's the face of fear.


wrong



A Optimistic said:


> so tell us which samurai akainu was concerned about


the ones he lacked intel on
are you intentionally trolling?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Man I love mihawk but the “mihawk > Ryuma” argument makes absolutely no sense at all


-Mihawk is zoro goal,  king dragon>ryuma's 
-MIhawk has a higher grade on his sword. and both are black blades
-Mihawk fought worthy opponents, unlike ryuma where he one-shot fodder

Ryuma is all fake hype, no real feats.


WB put the fear, into gorosei. World Government didnt want smoke with him directly. Lucky BB helped them with Ace. Even with that they sent All Their warlords they had available, Their strongest Admirals, Garp Sengoku, Elite Vice admirals, Entire MHQ just to face him. Ryuma never had that type of hype. The man with the power to destory the world, will always win

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> 1) ryuma
> 
> 2) kinemon
> 
> 3) o-Kiku


Left out Oden..... was that on purpose?


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> WB put the fear, into gorosei. World Government didnt want smoke with him directly.



we have a panel of one marine ship chasing primebeard, please don’t lie like this

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

I really see why a portion of OL hates the Legion

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Left out Oden..... was that on purpose?



you can include Oden if you want. Is that your final answer for which samurai akainu is scared of?

everyone is quick to say akainu was not worried about ryuma but they refuse to say which samurai akainu is worried about


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> I really see why a portion of OL hates the Legion



if law wasn’t related to ryuma, you would never stop talking about him

stick to your cute 5 billion berri fruit, we got a mythical sword god on our side

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

> WG sent 3x CP0 + some fodder ships with ~VAs to handle all of Wano with 2 yonkou inside
> so much for Ryuumas hype


reminder

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Strobacaxi (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> king dragon>ryuma's


Kinemon could've cut King's dragon lol 
Ryuuma's was a real dragon don't be silly



GreenEggsAHam said:


> -MIhawk has a higher grade on his sword. and both are black blades


That just means Mihawk blackened a higher grade blade than Ryuuma



GreenEggsAHam said:


> -Mihawk fought worthy opponents, unlike ryuma where he one-shot fodder


Which worthy opponents did Mihawk fight?



GreenEggsAHam said:


> Ryuma is all fake hype, no real feats.


You want feats from a character that's been dead for 400 years?


GreenEggsAHam said:


> WB put the fear, into gorosei. World Government didnt want smoke with him directly. Lucky BB helped them with Ace. Even with that they sent All Their warlords they had available, Their strongest Admirals, Garp Sengoku, Elite Vice admirals, Entire MHQ just to face him. Ryuma never had that type of hype. The man with the power to destory the world, will always win


That's the difference right there isn't it

They sent everything they had to deal with WB. They didn't even want to send anything to deal with Wano


----------



## Great Potato (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Pretty much everyone agrees that Ryuma is a certified top tier. And there's no doubt that making a black blade is no mean feat. However, Mihawk has a black blade yet he isn't some sort of otherworldly top tier like some seem to believe Ryuma to be.
> 
> There's also the biggest problem of us not knowing how black blades are created



I've seen some posts in this thread claiming that his greatest accomplishment was a PH Zoro feat, that his hype was inferior to Oden, or devalue the WSM title he held in his era. Ryuuma having the Black Blade should quell any of those doubts that he was the real deal.

As far as Punk Hazard goes, the Government has tried and failed to reproduce the might of the real Ancient Giants of legends, so I don't buy that their bootleg artificial dragon on Punk Hazard was as strong as the real thing that was slain by Ryuuma. It wouldn't make sense that people on Wano would be worshiping the feat all of those centuries if it was something the likes of Hyogoro, Denjiro, or Ashura Doji were also capable of accomplishing. Whatever he accomplished on Wano in his lifetime was enough that he's been rated in a class of his own amongst all of Wano for centuries after the fact.

Not to say you are guilty of these arguments, but some in this thread are.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Friendly 2


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Apparently this dude is supposed to be stronger than ryuma

Reactions: Funny 7


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> That just means Mihawk blackened a higher grade blade than Ryuuma


that means he is stronger
its all possible blackening a higher grade blade is harder than a lower grade blade


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

Ava ignoring how WG is invading Wano right now


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> we have a panel of one marine ship chasing primebeard, please don’t lie like this


One marine ship, also chased Roger. 

Therefore since Only one marine ship chased both WBP and Roger Pirates, whilst buggy had like five. We can assume Buggy and his members>> WBP + Roger pirates combined.


A Optimistic said:


> you can include Oden if you want. Is that your final answer for which samurai akainu is scared of?
> 
> everyone is quick to say akainu was not worried about ryuma but they refuse to say which samurai akainu is worried about


Clearly it's oden, we see in 957, We see sakazuki and sengoku both mention this is tied to oden


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Mar 13, 2022)

Joyboy > Ryuma > Roger > Yonko/Admirals


----------



## Strobacaxi (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> that means he is stronger
> its all possible blackening a higher grade blade is harder than a lower grade blade


Or he just had a better blade to start with

Can't use complete hypotheticals as a real argument man


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Can't use complete hypotheticals as a real argument man


cant say a dead man from 400 years ago with no concrete feats is stronger than Primebeard  or Mihawk

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> *Kinemon could've cut King's dragon lol*
> Ryuuma's was a real dragon don't be silly


Hope you're joking,  Magma Dragon>Fire dragon. Kinemon is able to kill ryuma dragon since its just fire, whilst zoro was magma.


Strobacaxi said:


> That just means Mihawk blackened a higher grade blade than Ryuuma


No excuse for this should be same rank, both are swordsmen, not just swordsmen but great dai kengo( great swordsmen) 


Strobacaxi said:


> Which worthy opponents did Mihawk fight?


Vista, Shanks....  



Strobacaxi said:


> ou want feats from a character that's been dead for 400 years?


"no real feats." His best feat is something current zoro suprassed.


Strobacaxi said:


> That's the difference right there isn't it
> 
> *They sent everything they had to deal with WB. They didn't even want to send anything to deal with Wano*


 Lol Thats the point on why PB>Ryuma. Also Wano is hard, very hard for ships, you have to get lucky. Ryuma has homecourt advantage.


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Ava ignoring how WG is invading Wano right now



? how are they invading Wano now? Lucci and the boys are sitting on the ships waiting for the conclusion of the battle because they are too scared to invade now 

show me where the WG forces landed on Wano


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> ? how are they invading Wano now? Lucci and the boys are sitting on the ships waiting for the conclusion of the battle because they are too scared to invade now
> 
> show me where the WG forces landed on Wano


they are sailing towards Wano right now (Lucci also isnt on that ship btw)


they also only ever talked about the danger of yonkou alliance and Kaidou, 0 mention of fearing any samurai
so much for Ryuumas hype I guess, WG/CP0/Gorosei dont give a shit about him, they only concern themselves with 2 yonkou allying or Gomu Gomu/JB awakening
more hype for Joyboy >>> Ryuuma


----------



## Strobacaxi (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> cant say a dead man from 400 years ago with no concrete feats is stronger than Primebeard  or Mihawk


I didn't. I said his hype was above Mihawk's hype. I voted Primebeard > Ryuuma too



GreenEggsAHam said:


> Hope you're joking, Magma Dragon>Fire dragon. Kinemon is able to kill ryuma dragon since its just fire, whilst zoro was magma.


Wtf are you talking about? King didn't use magma, he used fire. His fire was compared to magma, but it was still very clearly fire.
His dragon was made of fire, which Kinemon can cut easily. Ryuuma's dragon was not made of fire, it was the real thing with scales and shit.



GreenEggsAHam said:


> No excuse for this should be same rank, both are swordsmen, not just swordsmen but great dai kengo( great swordsmen)


What? You've been explicitly told by the manga that blackening a sword raises it 1 rank.
Mihawk blackened a Tier 2 blade, Ryuuma blackened a Tier 3 blade. 



GreenEggsAHam said:


> Vista, Shanks....


He didn't beat any of them now did he



GreenEggsAHam said:


> "no real feats." His best feat is something current zoro suprassed.


His best feat is blackening a blade. Which Zoro has not surpassed in any way. 
And you can't say Zoro surpassed cutting a dragon because he never cut a real dragon.



GreenEggsAHam said:


> Lol Thats the point on why PB>Ryuma.


The fact that the WG dared to fight WB but didn't dare to fight Ryuuma is the point that PB > Ryuuma? wut?



GreenEggsAHam said:


> Also Wano is hard, very hard for ships, you have to get lucky. Ryuma has homecourt advantage.


And yet that didn't stop it from being plundered on the daily. You know what did stop that? Ryuuma.


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> they are sailing towards Wano right now (Lucci also isnt on that ship btw)



the world government forces are already stationed outside of Wano. They are beside the elephant right now, the one that’s been speaking to momo several chapters now. They refuse to step on the island until the battle is over. So no, the WG is not invading Wano.

and yes lucci is on the ship, we saw him, kaku, and stussy


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> the world government forces are already stationed outside of Wano. They are beside the elephant right now, the one that’s been speaking to momo several chapters now. They refuse to step on the island until the battle is over. So no, the WG is not invading Wano.
> 
> and yes lucci is on the ship, we saw him, kaku, and stussy


I see you ignored the second part of my post


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> I've seen some posts in this thread claiming that his greatest accomplishment was a PH Zoro feat, that his hype was inferior to Oden, or devalue the WSM title he held in his era. Ryuuma having the Black Blade should quell any of those doubts that he was the real deal.
> 
> As far as Punk Hazard goes, the Government has tried and failed to reproduce the might of the real Ancient Giants of legends, so I don't buy that their bootleg artificial dragon on Punk Hazard was as strong as the real thing that was slain by Ryuuma. It wouldn't make sense that people on Wano would be worshiping the feat all of those centuries if it was something the likes of Hyogoro, Denjiro, or Ashura Doji were also capable of accomplishing. Whatever he accomplished on Wano in his lifetime was enough that he's been rated in a class of his own amongst all of Wano for centuries after the fact.
> 
> Not to say you are guilty of these arguments, but some in this thread are.



Let’s be honest. 400 years into the future people might not even know who Mihawk is let alone worship or fear him for his strength. The fact that after 400 years people still are doing so with Ryuma to me indicates he isn’t a candidate for strongest of his current era but one of the strongest in history whose reputation doesn’t just navigate his age but transcends time. I put Roger in this category as well and Joyboy of course at the top of the GOATs.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> they also only ever talked about the danger of yonkou alliance and Kaidou, 0 mention of fearing any samurai
> so much for Ryuumas hype I guess, WG/CP0/Gorosei dont give a shit about him, they only concern themselves with 2 yonkou allying or Gomu Gomu/JB awakening
> more hype for Joyboy >>> Ryuuma



and who does akainu decide to concern himself with? You know..the guy that you think is the world’s strongest man.

interesting how all of the sudden akainu’s opinion means nothing to you and green eggs when you both treat akainu like the second coming of Christ outside of this thread

so tell me, who does world’s strongest man sakazuki choose to concern himself with?

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> and who does akainu decide to concern himself with? You know..the guy that you think is the world’s strongest man.
> 
> interesting how all of the sudden akainu’s opinion means nothing to you and green eggs when you both treat akainu like the second coming of Christ outside of this thread
> 
> so tell me, who does world’s strongest man sakazuki choose to concern himself with?


I already explained it to you - Akainu lacks solid intel on Wanos forces and even Wano itself, thats the reason. Like for example how many seastone weapons they have etc.
it was spelled out *very clearly*


meanwhile WG/CP0 have actual intel - and they dont give a single fuck about samurai or Ryuuma, he is just some irrelevant relic from 400 years ago

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> I didn't. I said his hype was above Mihawk's hype. I voted Primebeard > Ryuuma too


Nice.


Strobacaxi said:


> Wtf are you talking about? King didn't use magma, he used fire. His fire was compared to magma, but it was still very clearly fire.
> His dragon was made of fire, which Kinemon can cut easily. Ryuuma's dragon was not made of fire, it was the real thing with scales and shit.


The dragon had fire ability's. And King  fire is above kinemon fire style. 


Strobacaxi said:


> What? You've been explicitly told by the manga that blackening a sword raises it 1 rank.
> Mihawk blackened a Tier 2 blade, Ryuuma blackened a Tier 3 blade.


Fair.



Strobacaxi said:


> He didn't beat any of them now did he


Still faced them. And had good duels with shanks.


Strobacaxi said:


> His best feat is blackening a blade. Which Zoro has not surpassed in any way.
> And you can't say Zoro surpassed cutting a dragon because he never cut a real dragon.


Nah that magma dragon is similar to ryuma dragon. The attacks zoro and ryuma did were even similar.


Strobacaxi said:


> The fact that the WG dared to fight WB but didn't dare to fight Ryuuma is the point that PB > Ryuuma? wut?


Difference is, they cant send all their forces, because wano waterfall is tricky. WG would've clapped ryuma if they sent the same amount with whitebeard's


Strobacaxi said:


> And yet that didn't stop it from being plundered on the daily. You know what did stop that? Ryuuma.


He had the advantage of that. He faced fodder's nothing special.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

imagine thinking _Wanos_ (from 400 years ago) opinion/wank of Ryuuma is going to be objective and unbiased
and using that as your argument 
muh sword god

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Shunsuiju (Mar 13, 2022)

Ryuma is definitely one of the best swordsmen of all time, but Whitebeard is Whitebeard.


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> Let’s be honest. 400 years into the future people might not even know who Mihawk is let alone worship or fear him for his strength


Yes they will, mihawk will be associated with zoro.  Mihawk is the 1st official world strongest swordsmen


convict said:


> still are doing so with Ryuma to me indicates he isn’t a candidate for strongest of his current era but one of the strongest in history whose reputation doesn’t just navigate his age but transcends time.


Only a oldhead from wano has been hyping this guy.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Mar 13, 2022)

What’s the consensus on the diff Prime Ray gives Roger? Cause Zoro is going to surpass him and be seen as the new Ryuma by beating Mihawk, who is stronger than Prime Ray.


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> What’s the consensus on the diff Prime Ray gives Roger? Cause Zoro is going to surpass him and be seen as the new Ryuma by beating Mihawk, who is stronger than Prime Ray.



I am pretty sure consensus is high

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> What’s the consensus on the diff Prime Ray gives Roger? Cause Zoro is going to surpass him and be seen as the new Ryuma by beating Mihawk, who is stronger than Prime Ray.


 Bruh if old ray is comparable to shanks  by oda, then mihawk shouldn't be stronger then him. We don't know if zoro will surpass him. Unless you're going by the mistranslation he said to kuina.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> I am pretty sure consensus is high


So Ray gives Roger/WB high diff. Mihawk gives them extreme and Ryuma beats them. I think we’re done here and can close the thread. 


GreenEggsAHam said:


> Bruh if old ray is comparable to shanks  by oda, then mihawk shouldn't be stronger then him. We don't know if zoro will surpass him. Unless you're going by the mistranslation he said to kuina.


Old Ray isn’t comparable to Shanks. We’ve been through this. You’re deliberately misreading that question. Old Ray had Kizaru try to ignore him. Meanwhile Beckmann a subordinate of Shanks, had Kizaru with his hands up, only daring to attack when Beckmann left the area.

Call me when Ray reaches Great Pirate level.


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> So Ray gives Roger/WB high diff. Mihawk gives them extreme and Ryuma beats them. I think we’re done here and can close the thread.


You're acting like its confirmed Ryuma>mihawk


Seraphoenix said:


> Old Ray isn’t comparable to Shanks. We’ve been through this. You’re deliberately misreading that question. Old Ray had Kizaru try to ignore him. Meanwhile Beckmann a subordinate of Shanks, had Kizaru with his hands up, only daring to attack when Beckmann left the area.


That's not what im talking about. Oda in a sbs mention both old ray and shanks capable of ko'ing 100k users. And we know conquers is linked to overall strength.


Seraphoenix said:


> Call me when Ray reaches Great Pirate level.


Being a legend with whitebeard> Great pirate

Mihawk isn't great pirate also, and is >Shanks


----------



## Strobacaxi (Mar 13, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> only daring to attack when Beckmann left the area


This is plain wrong

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Seraphoenix (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> You're acting like its confirmed Ryuma>mihawk
> 
> That's not what im talking about. Oda in a sbs mention both old ray and shanks capable of ko'ing 100k users. And we know conquers is linked to overall strength.
> 
> ...


Sword God> not Sword God. Zoro is also his reincarnation as a one eyed swordsman and he is going to be superior to Mihawk.

I know what you are talking about and like I said you’re misinterpreting it. Just because they could knock all of them out doesn’t mean their limit is the same. Shanks had Jozu struggling to stay conscious and grimacing, Old Ray couldn’t make preskip Law sweat with his CotC.

na. Great Pirate is something that Oda gives to only the elite. Roger after beating his greatest foe, was only a Great Pirate. When WB died, the title of the chapter was the Great Pirate Edward Newgate. Buggy and Chinjao are also legends. Great Pirate is not something any fodder can get.

Mihawk has the title of WSS. Also not stronger than Shanks.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Seraphoenix (Mar 13, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> This is plain wrong


This is plain wrong.


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Sword God> not Sword God. Zoro is also his reincarnation as a one eyed swordsman and he is going to be superior to Mihawk.


Not something official. Only in wano is he called that, so not true.


Seraphoenix said:


> I know what you are talking about and like I said you’re misinterpreting it. Just because they could knock all of them out doesn’t mean their limit is the same. Shanks had Jozu struggling to stay conscious and grimacing, Old Ray couldn’t make preskip Law sweat with his CotC.


Difference is WB confirmed shanks was using all of his coc, whilst ray wasn't/



Seraphoenix said:


> na. Great Pirate is something that Oda gives to only the elite. Roger after beating his greatest foe, was only a Great Pirate. When WB died, the title of the chapter was the Great Pirate Edward Newgate. Buggy and Chinjao are also legends. Great Pirate is not something any fodder can ge


sure..... 


Seraphoenix said:


> Mihawk has the title of WSS. Also not stronger than Shanks.


But does he have great pirate? he doesn't need it and is still stronger then shanks, also shiki doesnt have it.


----------



## Strobacaxi (Mar 13, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> This is plain wrong.




Beckman is right there


----------



## Seraphoenix (Mar 13, 2022)

Non black blade, non Sword God Roger eventually conquered the grand line, which means at some point WB got folded, despite Roger being sick.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 3


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

I honestly think anyone who truly believes that Primebeard is the peak of power in One Piece is still living in 2010 during the Marineford arc. Because in 2022, it's clear that Oda is taking the story in a new direction, and that direction is that characters from the past have been reincarnated into characters from the new generation. Joyboy/Nika has been reincarnated into Luffy. Xebec has been reincarnated into Blackbeard (his ship is called Saber of Xebec and his headquarters is where the Rocks Pirates first met), and Ryuma has reincarnated into Zoro. And of course we have Imu, who has been reigning over the World Government for the last 800 years.

I feel like there's a very high chance that Luffy/Zoro/Blackbeard/Imu will all be stronger than Primebeard. And you guys who are dismissing the possibility completely are ignoring all the hints of reincarnation that Oda has been shoving down our throat since Wano/Reverie started.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Seraphoenix (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Not something official. Only in wano is he called that, so not true.
> 
> Difference is WB confirmed shanks was using all of his coc, whilst ray wasn't/
> 
> ...


No title is official. It’s just the general consensus from the population.

WB didn’t confirm anything. Shanks himself said he was just a little fired up. Still Jozu was grimacing and struggling to stay conscious.

he isn’t stronger than Shanks. He has WSS which is the equivalent of a Yonko.  Shiki is a scrub that WB threatened to throw overboard like he was some fodder. You don’t see him mentioned as prominent in the manga for good reason.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

worldwide narrator stated title of strongest >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wano-wank title

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> worldwide narrator stated title of strongest >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wano-wank title



Even a buster call has more ships then the amount that was sent after Mihawk

cope

Reactions: Creative 1


----------



## Strobacaxi (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> worldwide narrator stated title of strongest >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wano-wank title


Ryuuma also had that title iirc


----------



## Seraphoenix (Mar 13, 2022)

You know I always say the old gen pirates are not in some different class to current Yonko. It’s all nostalgia. However there are many who still want to prop them up as special. Those very same people then want to downplay people who were so special and dominant that they are remembered and feared hundreds of years after  

the Garp,Roger and WB era was really something special huh. With all of them getting along so well. So much competition

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Ryuuma also had that title iirc


not in the OP manga
noone cares what he was called in Monsters, especially 400 years ago.



Does he have combat feats in Monsters ? island level feats ?


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> I honestly think anyone who truly believes that Primebeard is the peak of power in One Piece is still living in 2010 during the Marineford arc. Because in 2022, it's clear that Oda is taking the story in a new direction, and that direction is that characters from the past have been reincarnated into characters from the new generation. Joyboy/Nika has been reincarnated into Luffy. Xebec has been reincarnated into Blackbeard (his ship is called Saber of Xebec and his headquarters is where the Rocks Pirates first met), and Ryuma has reincarnated into Zoro. And of course we have Imu, who has been reigning over the World Government for the last 800 years.
> 
> I feel like there's a very high chance that Luffy/Zoro/Blackbeard/Imu will all be stronger than Primebeard. And you guys who are dismissing the possibility completely are ignoring all the hints of reincarnation that Oda has been shoving down our throat since Wano/Reverie started.


Marco will reincarnate into Whitebeard.  Sanji will reincarnate into Germa. Akainu will reincarnate Into  Ancient Marine.  
Oda already said he hates reviving charcters.




Seraphoenix said:


> No title is official. It’s just the general consensus from the population.


Whitebeard is the only title without quotation marks, so its clear his is official, dragon, kaido, mihawk all had quotations at some point in the narrator box. 


Seraphoenix said:


> WB didn’t confirm anything. Shanks himself said he was just a little fired up. Still Jozu was grimacing and struggling to stay conscious.


Lol, when did shanks say that? WB said mans was using his full force. And couldnt even ko some fodder 



Seraphoenix said:


> he isn’t stronger than Shanks. He has WSS which is the equivalent of a Yonko. Shiki is a scrub that WB threatened to throw overboard like he was some fodder. You don’t see him mentioned as prominent in the manga for good reason.


Nah oda said he was going to mention him in 434 among the old era legends, but didnt want to reveal him yet.  He also almost beat roger pirates with fodders on his ship, but a freak accident happen. Also mihawk is stronger then shanks


----------



## Strobacaxi (Mar 13, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> You know I always say the old gen pirates are not in some different class to current Yonko. It’s all nostalgia


The Yonko are rivals of the old and past their prime versions of the old gen pirates.

Common sense tells us their prime versions were fairly stronger than the current yonko


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Oda already said he hates reviving charcters.



you going to deny that joyboy is back when we got a giant ass elephant stating clearly that joyboy is back?


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> you going to deny that joyboy is back when we got a giant ass elephant stating clearly that joyboy is back?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Joyboy is a title btw.


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Joyboy is a title btw.



you can't be serious

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## trance (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> you going to deny that joyboy is back when we got a giant ass elephant stating clearly that joyboy is back?


i think he means full on reviving like edo tensei

this whole joyboy schtick may be on some esoteric/supernatural shit but full resurrections? we'll have to wait on that


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

trance said:


> i think he means full on reviving like edo tensei
> 
> this whole joyboy schtick may be on some esoteric/supernatural shit but full resurrections? we'll have to wait on that



oh my bad i thought we were talking about reincarnation

thats what i meant


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> you can't be serious


Why you so funny. 

well um, joyboy wasn't  necessarily dead, His will always lives on


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Why you so funny.
> 
> well um, joyboy wasn't  necessarily dead, His will always lives on



the elephant said this is the first time joyboy has returned in 800 years

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> the elephant said this is the first time joyboy has returned in 800 years


Oda really contradicting.  his own self

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Oda really contradicting.  his own self


That's why you should read the manga instead of worshipping databooks bud.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Oda really contradicting.  his own self





have you accepted that luffy/imu/blackbeard/zoro aka the reincarnation bois will be the four strongest characters in one piece?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> have you accepted that luffy/imu/blackbeard/zoro aka the reincarnation bois will be the four strongest characters in one piece?


Yup
Luffy will reincarnate to joyboy
BB will reincarnate to Rocks
Imu will reincarnate to devil fruit tree
Koby will reincarnate into Garp

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Yup
> Luffy will reincarnate to joyboy
> BB will reincarnate to Rocks
> Imu will reincarnate to devil fruit tree
> Koby will reincarnate into Garp

Reactions: Funny 4


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> zoro  reincarnation boi





A Optimistic said:


> zoro four strongest characters in one piece


you disgust me more with every post

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## MO (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Ryuuwho


Ryuumyass

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Perrin (Mar 13, 2022)

We’ve got some legion energy channeling into this Ryuma vote now. Superrrrrr!

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Nope.
> 
> Should be Joyboy > Imu > Ryuma.
> 
> So third strongest character of all time. Don’t worry I’m not biased.


If there’s one thing I say appreciate about your posts compared to the rest of the legion is that you never pretend to be even the slightest bit unbiased even if your Zoro wank clearly knows no bounds.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Thdyingbreed said:


> If there’s one thing I say appreciate about your posts compared to the rest of the legion is that you never pretend to be even the slightest bit unbiased even if your Zoro wank clearly knows no bounds.



The key is never to question any of Luffy's powerups, but too quickly find a way to apply it to other characaters as well.

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> Let’s be honest. 400 years into the future people might not even know who Mihawk is let alone worship or fear him for his strength. The fact that after 400 years people still are doing so with Ryuma to me indicates he isn’t a candidate for strongest of his current era but one of the strongest in history whose reputation doesn’t just navigate his age but transcends time. I put Roger in this category as well and Joyboy of course at the top of the GOATs.


Or it could just be an indication that Wano being an isolationist country, living in their metaphorical pond, had no idea that there were comparable if not outright bigger fishes out there. 

I mean, centuries later, the people of Shandora still hold Kalgara in pretty much the same legendary regard 400 years or so after his passing. 


There's perfectly reasonable explanations to explore rather than just jumping straight into wank territory.


----------



## Perrin (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> There's perfectly reasonable explanations to explore rather than just jumping straight into wank territory.


Yeah but if u panic bought loo roll at the start of the pandemic…


----------



## KennethLT (Mar 13, 2022)

What’s with all these threads of putting completely unknowable Characters against the strongest people in the verse.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Or it could just be an indication that Wano being an isolationist country, living in their metaphorical pond, had no idea that there were comparable if not outright bigger fishes out there.
> 
> I mean, centuries later, the people of Shandora still hold Kalgara in pretty much the same legendary regard 400 years or so after his passing.
> 
> ...



Kalgara hasn't been reincarnated into one of the Worst Generation though, he's not relevant to the plot. Joyboy, Xebec, and Ryuma are each now tied to a specific member of the current Worst Generation.

And how is it wank to say a ghost from the past is super strong after everything that's happened the last few chapters? The drums of liberation are beating loudly my friend. The ghosts of the past have returned.


----------



## Perrin (Mar 13, 2022)

KennethLT said:


> What’s with all these threads of putting completely unknowable Characters against the strongest people in the verse.


We’re happy and excited and expressing it in different ways


----------



## KennethLT (Mar 13, 2022)

Perrin said:


> We’re happy and excited and expressing it in different ways


By making threads with a 100% inconclusive outcome? That’s not a good way to express anything.


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Kalgara hasn't been reincarnated into one of the Worst Generation though, he's not relevant to the plot. Joyboy, Xebec, and Ryuma are each now tied to a specific member of the current Worst Generation.
> 
> And how is it wank to say a ghost from the past is super strong after everything that's happened the last few chapters? The drums of liberation are beating loudly my friend. The ghosts of the past have returned.


Not sure you got the point of my post

Ryuma is worshipped in Wano years later as they literally don't have much better to compare him to. In that sense, he's no different from Kalgara. Contrast that with the world writ large where no one is worshipping at the shrine of deceased top tiers coz those are a dime a dozen with every era having its fair share of monsters. It's simply a difference in scale.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

Wano is a shithole

its relevance is seastone and kozukis, not Ryuuma


----------



## Perrin (Mar 13, 2022)

KennethLT said:


> By making threads with a 100% inconclusive outcome? That’s not a good way to express anything.


They have their purpose.
I like to bookmark then come back to them and quote people in an uncomfortable way when they get on a high horse for example


----------



## fenaker (Mar 13, 2022)

Corax said:


> Do you have a source?But even if so Ryuma was the sole reason WG didn't want to mess with Wano. I guess this gives him legendary status.


he is called a legendary samurai by Gyuki and by an outside source Oda even redrew him

A better translation :

In "Thriller Bark", he appeared as a zombie general of Gekko Moria and fought to the death with Zoro, but in "Wano-kuni", he and his famous sword "Shisui", which he entrusted to Zoro, are back in the spotlight. He is more than just a legendary swordsman,  a real hero who, 400 years ago in Wano, defied pirates who wanted to plunder the country's resources, and noble families who wanted to control Wano itself, and even slayed a dragon that flew in the sky with a single sword.

So, let's learn more about Ryuma and Shisui,who will undoubtedly be very important figure in the story .

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 13, 2022)

Even in a thread where Sword wanking is placed up against the Pirate King, the Yonko set still manages to strike again with their shenanigans 


Also the disrespectful barbs being thrown at the WSS here are way too obvious. Ryuuma is a fucking Neanderthal. A primitive swordsman from the Flintstone Era of One Piece where sticks and stones were mistaken for black blades  The human race has since evolved from those dark times. Man buns and the Oni race are no longer relevant


Knife Mihawk puts this old relic back in a coffin to the Void Century.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 7


----------



## Perrin (Mar 13, 2022)

Ryuma killed a dragon, if memory serves me well this makes him a 3rd gen dragonslayer. He can probably nakamapowah his way thru anything Edward dishes out (Ps FMA’s Edward did blonde locks better).

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 13, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Ryuma killed a dragon, if memory serves me well this makes him a 3rd gen dragonslayer. He can probably nakamapowah his way thru anything Edward dishes out (Ps FMA’s Edward did blonde locks better).


WB could probably cut that dragon in half with his moustache tbh

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Perrin (Mar 13, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> WB could probably cut that dragon in half with his moustache tbh


Uncertain, it was shown to be weak to heat based attacks


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

Whitebeard end's that dragon with one hakiless bisento swing.


----------



## Perrin (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Whitebeard end's that dragon with one hakiless bisento swing.


Same as Ryuma eh


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 13, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Ryuma killed a dragon, if memory serves me well this makes him a 3rd gen dragonslayer. He can probably nakamapowah his way thru anything Edward dishes out (Ps FMA’s Edward did blonde locks better).


Dude facts. 

Every time I hear Whitebeard's real name (which has always been boss), I always end up picturing Edward Elric lmao


Perrin said:


> Uncertain, it was shown to be weak to heat based attacks



Magma > Fire


----------



## Perrin (Mar 13, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Magma > Fire


Yeah but didn’t Ryuma kill the ‘John - The Magma Wyrm of Romidall’ in Monsters

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Yeah but didn’t Ryuma k*ill the ‘John - The Magma Wyrm of Romidall’ in Monsters*


----------



## Perrin (Mar 13, 2022)

I read it ages ago so might not be the exact epithet

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Eustathios (Mar 13, 2022)

Okay, we've gone from one extreme to the other. The WG does not want to mess with the Yonkou either, unless you think Sengoku is lying to us when he says they couldn't do _anything_ to Ace as long as WB protected him.

He was called the King of the Sea during his time, which I'd say is better hype than whatever title Ryuma has in Wano only.

The idea that you can use WB not scaring away people with his legend as proof is straight BS since everyone saw how he and his crew were devastated in MF.  It's not Ryuma's corpse that guards Wano, it's the reputation he gave the samurai. All the WG had to do was be as brave as Kaido or even Moria who made it there. If the WG saw how the samurai got wrecked, you can bet Wano would suffer a similar fate to WB's territories, as it has anyway.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 3


----------



## Lmao (Mar 13, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> I've seen some posts in this thread claiming that his greatest accomplishment was a PH Zoro feat, that his hype was inferior to Oden, or devalue the WSM title he held in his era.


His greatest accomplishment *was *a PH level feat, unless you can prove (you can't btw) the dragon Ryuuma killed was sentient and could clad itself in powerful Haki there is nothing impressive about that feat. In that regard Oden almost slaying Kaido >>> killing a random dragon.



Great Potato said:


> Ryuuma having the Black Blade should quell any of those doubts that he was the real deal..


Roger and Primebeard didn't have a black blade and they are still superior to Mihawk. This is such an overused argument when it really doesn't point towards WSM status at all.

Ryuma was the real deal, nobody is denying he was top tier in his era but there is absolutely zero reason for us to assume he was WSM of his time, Mihawk's statement puts every Ryuuma argument in this thread to rest:

Reactions: Agree 5


----------



## Perrin (Mar 13, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> He was called the King of the Sea during his time, which I'd say is better hype than whatever title Ryuma has in Wano only.


Ryuma was called ‘King’


Lmao said:


> His greatest accomplishment *was *a PH level feat, unless you can prove (you can't btw) the dragon Ryuuma killed was sentient and could clad itself in powerful Haki there is nothing impressive about that feat. In that regard Oden almost slaying Kaido >>> killing a random dragon.
> Roger and Primebeard didn't have a black blade and they are still superior to Mihawk. This is such an overused argument when it really doesn't point towards WSM status at all.
> Mihawk's statement puts every Ryuuma argument in this thread to rest:


Everyones conveniently forgetting the bronze statue he cut.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

A Wano frog in the well, knows nothing of the great ocean

Reactions: Agree 4


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 13, 2022)

Wano arc is just about over. Unless ZKK happens and Ryuma's parallel with Zoro is better reinforced, I don't see him overcoming this. These results won't change. Slaying a dragon will remain an underwhelming feat. Zoro will just be pursuing Mihawk from then on, as Ryuma will likely have no further significance to the rest of the story.


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

the "frog in the well" quote actually applies to the people who think the strongest character has to be from the last 100 years and not someone in the past

you guys don't see the irony in using the "frog in the well" quote? 800 years of history and you're all certain the strongest person has to be the dude we already met

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> the "frog in the well" quote actually applies to the people who think the strongest character has to be from the last 100 years and not someone in the past


Actually if you make a poll right now most people will say the strongest characters are Joy boy and/or Imu.


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Actually if you make a poll right now most people will say the strongest characters are Joy boy and Imu.



i agree that the top 4 are luffy(joyboy), imu, blackbeard, and zoro

all the reincarnations bois are in the top four 

whitebeard is the frog in the pond because he isn't aware of how strong the reincarnation bois will be EoS.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> i agree that the top 4 are luffy(joyboy), imu, blackbeard, and *zoro*
> 
> all the reincarnations bois are in the top four
> 
> whitebeard is the frog in the pond because he isn't aware of how strong the reincarnation bois will be EoS.


1 of these is not like the other

Reactions: Funny 4


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> 1 of these is not like the other



explain the difference between xebec reincarnating into blackbeard and ryuma reincarnating into zoro

give it your best shot


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> explain the difference between xebec reincarnating into blackbeard and ryuma reincarnating into zoro
> 
> give it your best shot


I dont wanna encourage your trolling


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> I dont wanna encourage your trolling



no rebuttal, that's what i thought 

in reality, there is no difference between xebec's ghost living in blackbeard and ryuma's ghost living in zoro

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## convict (Mar 13, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Or it could just be an indication that Wano being an isolationist country, living in their metaphorical pond, had no idea that there were comparable if not outright bigger fishes out there.
> 
> I mean, centuries later, the people of Shandora still hold Kalgara in pretty much the same legendary regard 400 years or so after his passing.
> 
> ...



The government also didn’t attack for those 100s of years not just the “isolationist”country perfectly simple explanation for that instead of jumping in to mindless hate.


----------



## Fujitora (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> This is the peak of piracy yet somehow everyone agrees current top pirates don't hold a candle to the top of the previous generation


Who's this everyone?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

Seemed like the WG/Gorosei was perfectly fine with the arrangement of trading with Wano/Kaido

until BM came and the yonkou alliance happened


----------



## Lmao (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> explain the difference between xebec reincarnating into blackbeard and ryuma reincarnating into zoro
> 
> give it your best shot


One is contender for top 1 verse the other is not, guess who is not


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Lmao said:


> One is contender for top 1 verse the other is not, guess who is not



neither of them

isn't the number 1 going to be joyboy? so looks like you gave me another thing blackbeard/xebec and zoro/ryuma have in common, thanks bro

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Lmao (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> neither of them
> 
> isn't the number 1 going to be joyboy? so looks like you gave me another thing blackbeard/xebec and zoro/ryuma have in common, thanks bro


Pirate Jesus is going to be number 1 but he is going to fight tooth and nail for that spot. Mihawk confirmed path for PK > WSS.

Blackbeard > Zoro


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Lmao said:


> Pirate Jesus is going to be number 1 but he is going to fight tooth and nail for that spot. Mihawk confirmed path for PK > WSS.
> 
> Blackbeard > Zoro



i didnt say zoro was stronger than blackbeard, just that zoro alongside luffy, blackbeard, and imu will be the 4 strongest characters at the end of the series, if zoro is the weakeast one out of those four then that's perfectly fine, i have no issues with that.

but there's no way someone like primebeard will be stronger than one of the reincarnation bois. primebeard needs his own ghost if he wants to be above EoS zoro.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> no rebuttal, that's what i thought
> 
> in reality, there is no difference between xebec's ghost living in blackbeard and ryuma's ghost living in zoro


The thing is, zoro doesnt have shisui so how would ryuma ghost be living in him?


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> The thing is, zoro doesnt have shisui so how would ryuma ghost be living in him?

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Karma (Mar 13, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Actually if you make a poll right now most people will say the strongest characters are Joy boy and/or Imu.


One of those 2 was around to see Ryuma and hasnt said otherwise regarding his hype in the centuries since his death


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


>


So zoro not only has the ghost of ryuma, but also kuina, and ushimaru, he will be top 0


----------



## Fujitora (Mar 13, 2022)

​

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 12


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

we're in ghost piece now whether you guys like it or not

luffy/imu/blackbeard/zoro are top 4 EoS

deal with it. if you don't have your own ghost then you can't compete.

the elephant made it clear, the drums of liberation have been played loudly

Reactions: Funny 10


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> luffy/imu/blackbeard/zoro are top 4 EoS


Wait so when xebec was alive, who ghost did he have?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2022)

legion has finally gone mad

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## Fujitora (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> we're in *stand *piece now whether you guys like it or not
> 
> luffy/imu/blackbeard/zoro are top 4 EoS
> 
> ...


We Jojo now

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 13, 2022)

Karma said:


> One of those 2 was around to see Ryuma and hasnt said otherwise regarding his hype in the centuries since his death


Which is supposed to prove what? They got more important and relevant things and people to focus on and talk about. Ryuma doesn't even get around to being brought up.

Also Imu didn't even personally participate when a Yonkou crew attacked Marineford.  Doubt he'd do so for some island in the Grand Line that poses little to no threat to WG stability.


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

any future thread featuring a ghost user vs a non-ghost user needs to have the ghost restricted in the opening post in order to make things fair

Reactions: Funny 8


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

Would brook be consider a ghost user?


----------



## Great Potato (Mar 13, 2022)

Lmao said:


> His greatest accomplishment *was *a PH level feat, unless you can prove (you can't btw) the dragon Ryuuma killed was sentient and could clad itself in powerful Haki there is nothing impressive about that feat. In that regard Oden almost slaying Kaido >>> killing a random dragon.



I already addressed this in the post you quoted which you conveniently left out.

1. The Government has notoriously failed to recreate the power of legendary creatures such as the Ancient Giants, so there's no reason to assume their artificial dragon is the same level as the real deal. Vegapunk had even continued working on newer tougher models which tells us the dragons were still a work in progress.

2. It would make no sense for the people of Wano to worship that feat of Ryuuma if there were dozens of people on the island capable of replicating that feat. Kinemon himself killed one of the bootleg Dragons on PH and still worships the ground Ryuuma walked on; why is nobody worshipping Kinemon if he replicated Ryuuma's greatest feat? Obvious answer is because they don't compare to real dragons.

Also, you made the claim that the PH Dragon was as impressive as the real deal so the burden of proof would be on you to demonstrate that when the evidence points to the contrary.



Lmao said:


> Roger and Primebeard didn't have a black blade and they are still superior to Mihawk. This is such an overused argument when it really doesn't point towards WSM status at all.



The fact that not even Roger and Primebeard have black blades should further prove to us just how remarkable of a feat that actually is to obtain it. Out of the entirety of One Piece only a grand total of two people have that honor and both happen to be the greatest swordsman of their time.

Not saying it makes him superior to Prime Whitebeard, I don't think that he is, but it's absolutely an incredible feat for him which shows how amazing his haki mastery and swordsmanship was.



Lmao said:


> Ryuma was the real deal, nobody is denying he was top tier in his era but there is absolutely zero reason for us to assume he was WSM of his time



Outside of the fact we were told he was the WSM of his time?



I'd say that's a pretty good reason.


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

> OL when they find out luffy and blackbeard are the reincarnation of joyboy and xebec




> OL when they found out zoro is the reincarnation of ryuma and therefore will be in the same tier as EoS Luffy/Blackbeard even if he'll be weaker than both of them

Reactions: Funny 7


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> Outside of the fact we were told he was the WSM of his time?


In Wanted, King was fodder, he slew a dragon and boom he was world strongest.


----------



## Lmao (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> any future thread featuring a ghost user vs a non-ghost user needs to have the ghost restricted in the opening post in order to make things fair


Whitebeard is a non-ghost user and was WSM in Roger's timeline

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Strobacaxi (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> In Wanted, King was fodder, he slew a dragon and boom he was world strongest.


You realize that he was being called King and WSM before he slew the dragon, right? The page he posted was the last page of the Wanted manga

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> You realize that he was being called King and WSM before he slew the dragon, right? The page he posted was the last page of the Wanted manga


No "King." is someone different in the top right, its even in ryuma dialogue.


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

Lmao said:


> Whitebeard is a non-ghost user and was WSM in Roger's timeline



whitebeard was defeating ghost user blackbeard in a fight, he slashed his arm and grabbed his throat and quaked him

however the xebec drums of liberation played, and then blackbeard killed whitebeard, and stole his fruit, territory, and yonko title

further proof that ghost users > non- ghost users

Reactions: Funny 5


----------



## Strobacaxi (Mar 13, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> No "King." is someone different in the top right, its even in ryuma dialogue.




Ryuuma doesn't know he's the king.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Ryuuma doesn't know he's the king.


Oh alright. That's good


----------



## Karma (Mar 13, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Which is supposed to prove what? They got more important and relevant things and people to focus on and talk about.


The head of the Navy doesnt wanna invade wano due the strengh of the samurai. There r more pressing matters than this? 

The fodder talk abt the ryuma legend like hes a boggyman.

If i were an evil dictator, i wouldnt let some some ghost scare my army off for centuries if there was no actual fire behind all the smoke.


----------



## Great Potato (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> we're in ghost piece now whether you guys like it or not
> 
> deal with it. if you don't have your own ghost then you can't compete.



When you have a ghost, but it's just Ace...

Reactions: Funny 13


----------



## Fujitora (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> > OL when they found out zoro is the reincarnation of ryuma and therefore will be in the same tier as EoS Luffy/Blackbeard even if he'll be weaker than both of them


But he's not though   ,I mean the only confirmed reincarnation atm is Luffy. BB is a possibility. And Zoro is a stretch atm, all they said is he looks like him, and he should since he's descendant.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 13, 2022)

~Flow~ said:


> But he's not though   ,I mean the only confirmed reincarnation atm is Luffy. BB is a possibility. And Zoro is a stretch atm, all they said is he looks like him, and he should since he's descendant.



are you doubting the drums of liberation?

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Fujitora (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> are you doubting the drums of liberation?



I would never ​

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


----------



## Fujitora (Mar 13, 2022)

​

Reactions: Funny 11


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 13, 2022)

Karma said:


> The head of the Navy doesnt wanna invade wano due the strengh of the samurai. There r more pressing matters than this?


Yes, proven by the lack of targets from Wano in his room.

Invasion of Marineford by the WSM's Yonkou crew was 100x more pressing than some far off island that posed no threat to WG stability. Imu didn't even attend that. What makes you think he would for something so trivial by comparison?



Karma said:


> If i were an evil dictator, i wouldnt let some some ghost scare my army off for centuries if there was no actual fire behind all the smoke.


You're acting like Imu intervened whenever something isn't ideal for the WG, when there's been 0 confirmed instances of him personally attending any kind of war or battle. The fact that most of the WG don't even know he exists suggests he didn't even participate in far more important conflicts.

Also don't think I didn't notice how flimsy the original argument was. Just because Imu didn't talk about someone doesn't make them special. In fact it's the opposite.


----------



## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Mar 13, 2022)

Wankbeard fans  

I think Ryuma was a pirate you know what I mean don't you?


----------



## Dead Precedence (Mar 13, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> I'd say that's a pretty good reason.


>holds the reputation 

sounds like hearsay to me no better than Kaido's "known as"  the World's Strongest Creature title

>World's Greatest Warrior's Soul

What is this an RPG? I need to see receipts for who held the Greatest Sorcerer's Soul and Greatest Thief's Soul back then

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Karma (Mar 13, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Invasion of Marineford was 100x more pressing than some island that posed no threat to WG stability. Imu didn't even attend that. What makes you think he would for something so trivial by comparison?


Ur missing the point. This has been going on for 100s of years. Anytime time in the last 400 years where the WG needed to do smth in Wano, Ryuma's spirit has kept them at bay, from basic fodder to the FA himself.


Heart Over Blade said:


> You're acting like Imu intervened whenever there's a setback for the WG, when there's been 0 confirmed instances of him personally attending any war


If he was confident an Admiral could take Ryuma then he wouldve let the marines know. Theres been 400 years worth of Admirals, ranging from Fuji-Garp levels in strengh. 

Ryuma is PK tier at minimum along with Roger/WB.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 2


----------



## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 13, 2022)

Karma said:


> Ur missing the point. This has been going on for 100s of years. Anytime time in the last 400 years where the WG needed to do smth in Wano, Ryuma's spirit has kept them at bay, from basic fodder to the FA himself.


Ryuma spirit keeps them at bay?
Really bro
-Cp0
-Big mom
-Moria
-Kaido
-Straw Hat's
All entered wano
stop with haedcannon.


Karma said:


> PK tier miniumun


thats a big stretch hes not PK level miniumim

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 13, 2022)

Karma said:


> Ur missing the point. This has been going on for 100s of years. *Anytime time in the last 400 years where the WG needed to do smth in Wano, Ryuma's spirit has kept them at bay, from basic fodder to the FA himself*


Unconfirmed speculation that's still heavily debated till now.

And your original point was you brought up Imu not dismissing his hype as proof of anything, when Imu got more important things to focus on and talk about. Sounds like you're conceding that



Karma said:


> If he was confident an Admiral could take Ryuma then he wouldve let the marines know. Theres been 400 years worth of Admirals, ranging from Fuji-Garp levels in strengh.
> 
> Ryuma is PK tier at minimum along with Roger/WB.


First you need to establish that Wano is worth the war fighting over. Second Ryuma is long gone and Imu still didn't bother, suggesting it's a low priority. Third Wano isn't even in his personal target list , once again suggesting it's not that important. It only became a priority when Straw Hats entered and when two Yonkous formed an alliance, by then WG sent the Cp0 fleet over.

There are many territories not under WG control, Wano is hardly one of them.
But sure Imu is scared of Ryuma's "spirit"

Reactions: Winner 3


----------



## Karma (Mar 13, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Unconfirmed speculation that's still heavily debated till now.
> 
> And your original point was you brought up Imu not dismissing his hype as proof of anything, when Imu got more important things to focus on and talk about. Sounds like you're conceding that
> 
> ...


Bro, do think they sent the sent an army to Wano just because they were bored?

Ryuma warded off an invasion, they clearly wanted smth from Wano.

The only person who needs to establish things is u. Theres a manga panel of the FA scared of sending an Admiral to Wano because of the samurai. Can i get the 2 piece panel of the Gorosei/Im telling us they know there isnt a Samurai as strong as Ryuma there?


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 13, 2022)

Karma said:


> Bro, do think they sent the sent an army to Wano just because they were bored?
> 
> Ryuma warded off an invasion, they clearly wanted smth from Wano.


Like I already said, Just because they wanted more territory doesn't one territorh it a high priority. Also, remind me where it was confirmed they sent an army there and who they sent in the army?


Karma said:


> The only person who needs to establish things is u. Theres a manga panel of the FA scared of sending an Admiral to Wano because of the samurai. Can i get the 2 piece panel of the Gorosei/Im telling us they know there isnt a Samurai as strong as Ryuma there?


Ryuma lived centuries ago, of course they know he's dead. Last I checked they also had Cp0 the world's best intelligence agency inside there. You didn't even know that?Thanks for confirming you've been reading two piece.

Now that we established that, I'd like to remind you you still haven't established Wano's worth as a high priority target, when there's ample evidence suggesting otherwise.



GreenEggsAHam said:


> Ryuma spirit keeps them at bay?
> Really bro
> -Cp0
> -Big mom
> ...


@Karma 

You conceding to this part  too?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Karma (Mar 13, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Like I already said, Just because they wanted more territory doesn't one territorh it a high priority.


Is this confirmed?


Heart Over Blade said:


> Also, remind me where it was confirmed they sent an army there and who they sent in the army?


I dont remember the panel, but i think it was during W7 or Dressrosa. They were talking abt marine invasions sending an Admiral along with them.


Heart Over Blade said:


> of course they know he's dead. Last I checked they also had Cp0 the world's best intelligence agency inside there. You didn't even know that?Thanks for confirming you've been reading two piece.


Ofc hes dead, but how does any of this confirm Wano didnt have another Ryuma tier Samurai?


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 13, 2022)

Karma said:


> Is this confirmed?


About as confirmed as your speculation that Wano is worth going to war over.


Karma said:


> dont remember the panel, but i think it was during W7 or Dressrosa. They were talking abt marine invasions sending an Admiral along with them.


I don't remember, sure that's not two piece? There's nothing in Ryuma's wiki profile about that.


Karma said:


> Ofc hes dead, but how does any of this confirm Wano didnt have another Ryuma tier Samurai?


Lollll great. So it's not Ryuma personally anymore, it's just Wano having strong Samurai. Cp-0 still had agents there. It's more likely they knew something as important as that, considering the all minor details they already knew. Even in the unlikely event they didn't, If you can't confirm they didn't know then the argument that they didn't invade because of Ryuma Or Ryuma's spirit doesn't hold water. It wouldn't matter because having another strong Samurai isn't necessarily something attributable to Ryuma. The conditions to breed strong Samurai was always there. That's how Ryuma came to be. And They did sent a Cp0 fleet once Wano became a priority.


----------



## Karma (Mar 13, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Cp-0 still had agents there. It's more likely they knew something as important as that, considering the all minor details they already knew. Even in the unlikely event they didn't, If you can't confirm they didn't know then the argument that they didn't invade because of Ryuma Or Ryuma's spirit doesn't hold water. And They did sent a Cp0 fleet once Wano became a priority.


How does this confirm they knew there wasnt a Ryuma tier Samurai throught the 400 years prior?



Heart Over Blade said:


> About as confirmed as your speculation that Wano is worth going to war over.


Was there or was there not an invasion of Wano?

This is such a dumb hill to die on too. Even BM was hyping Wano being important to finding the OP just a couple of chapters ago. That place is obviously important to the WG/Im.


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Mar 13, 2022)

Ryuma could end up being wb level AND this is a naked attempt to wank zoro. Both can be true.


----------



## Lmao (Mar 13, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> I already addressed this in the post you quoted which you conveniently left out.
> 
> 1. The Government has notoriously failed to recreate the power of legendary creatures such as the Ancient Giants, so there's no reason to assume their artificial dragon is the same level as the real deal. Vegapunk had even continued working on newer tougher models which tells us the dragons were still a work in progress.
> 
> ...


1. Now you're just assuming because the WG failed to recreate Giants they failed recreating dragons too even though the PH dragon Zoro slayed matches everything we know about dragons so far:  and . But let's assume you are right and there is a huge difference between the two dragons, the one Ryuuma killed still cannot clad itself in Haki so the feat is underwhelming all the same (by current top tier standards at least).

2. Are you seriously asking why people aren't worshipping Kinemon for a slaying a dragon this size:



in a 2v1? 



Great Potato said:


> The fact that not even Roger and Primebeard have black blades should further prove to us just how remarkable of a feat that actually is to obtain it. Out of the entirety of One Piece only a grand total of two people have that honor and both happen to be the greatest swordsman of their time.
> 
> Not saying it makes him superior to Prime Whitebeard, I don't think that he is, but it's absolutely an incredible feat for him which shows how amazing his haki mastery and swordsmanship was.


Agreed, nothing to argue with here. 



Great Potato said:


> Outside of the fact we were told he was the WSM of his time?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say that's a pretty good reason.


See the problem is you can replace Mihawk with Ryuuma in this panel and the same statement would apply: the strongest in the world, with a sword that is. Then there's the fact Wano as an isolationist country didn't have a point of reference as to what world class strength looked like, I'm sure under the same circumstances Luffy would be praised as a battle god for his current fighting ability.

At the end of the day Monsters existed before One Piece was fleshed out to the point it is today so we have more info and points of reference to work with. We now know being the strongest swordsman in the world doesn't mean you are stronger than everyone else as we have someone comparable to Ryuuma in Mihawk who was also canonically weaker than Whitebeard (pre sickness). It truly is hard to outdo Primebeard.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 13, 2022)

Karma said:


> How does this confirm they knew there wasnt a Ryuma tier Samurai throught the 400 years prior?


I don't need to confirm. Only need to show you it's unlikely . Burden of proof is on you to prove they didn't know for your argument that they didn't invade because of Ryuma to hold water. Otherwise it doesn't hold water.

Also WG being wary of strong Samurai doesn't necessarily hype up Ryuma, for reasons I already mentioned. How do we know there weren't other Samurai as strong as or stronger than Ryuma in the past few hundred years? We don't. How do we know they weren't talking about the strength of the Samurai as a collective army? We don't. Introducing alternative possibilities like this only shoots yourself in the foot.


Karma said:


> Was there or was there not an invasion of Wano?


So no proof there was one before Luffy came on? Gotcha.

You were so sure of yourself I thought you'd have evidence.



Karma said:


> Was there or was there not an invasion of Wano?
> 
> This is such a dumb hill to die on too. Even BM was hyping Wano being important to finding the OP just a couple of chapters ago. That place is obviously important to the WG/Im.


About as important as the many other places with poneglyphs   .
Yet, WG didn't even bother sending an army until two Yonkous allied there and Straw Hats arrived. Meaning it was still fairly low priority until now. What matters isn't whether you think it should be high priority, it's whether the WG treats it as high priority and what I just pointed out suggests it isn't.



Karma said:


> One of those 2 was around to see Ryuma and hasnt said otherwise regarding his hype in the centuries since his death


We're going on an unnecessary tangent with all of the above about things I didn't even care enough to debate. None of that strengthens your original argument here that you've had to concede, by which point it was pointless to continue.


----------



## Fujitora (Mar 13, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> we're in ghost piece now whether you guys like it or not
> 
> luffy/imu/blackbeard/zoro are top 4 EoS
> 
> ...


Big mom has the ghost of mother Carmel inside her

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Mar 13, 2022)

Joyboy and Ryuuma are both potentially > Roger.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Fujitora (Mar 13, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> Joyboy and Ryuuma are both potentially > Roger.



Don't lump Joyboy with randoms like Ryuma.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Ushiromiya Battler (Mar 13, 2022)

~Flow~ said:


> Don't lump Joyboy with randoms like Ryuma.


Ryuuma also has a really legendary status as well, not to the extent of Joyboy, but definitely one of them legends.

I am still looking forward to stories of him to see his feats to accurately rank him.

Meanwhile, all these reincarnation talk makes me think about Sanji. Is Sanji going to inherit Sora's will too? If that's the case Sora needs to be hyped up more imo because Sora's presence feels non existent.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Fujitora (Mar 13, 2022)

Ebitan said:


> Ryuuma also has a really legendary status as well, not to the extent of Joyboy, but definitely one of them legends.
> 
> I am still looking forward to stories of him to see his feats to accurately rank him.



Id group Ryuuma with Primeberd and Roger tbh.

Joyboy and Imu are different, Joyboy and who he was was entirely erased from history by the WG and you have to go through all the trouble of becoming PK/Finding Raftel to start learning about him, and Imu has been ruling the world from the shadows for centuries presumably. Those two are big time legendary figures.






Ebitan said:


> Meanwhile, all these reincarnation talk makes me think about Sanji. Is Sanji going to inherit Sora's will too? If that's the case Sora needs to be hyped up more imo because Sora's presence feels non existent.



I hope not, I hope Sanji nor Zoro go through the reincarnation trope tbh. I want them to remain themselves.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2022)

convict said:


> The government also didn’t attack for those 100s of years not just the “isolationist”country perfectly simple explanation for that instead of jumping in to mindless hate.


Yes, because according to Akainu, they were under the impression that Wano had several powerful Samurai. It wasn't Ryuuma's legend that kept them away. It was a misconception.


----------



## Great Potato (Mar 14, 2022)

Lmao said:


> 1. Now you're just assuming because the WG failed to recreate Giants they failed recreating dragons too even though the PH dragon Zoro slayed matches everything we know about dragons so far:  and . But let's assume you are right and there is a huge difference between the two dragons, the one Ryuuma killed still cannot clad itself in Haki so the feat is underwhelming all the same (by current top tier standards at least).



Kaido can turn into an actual dragon and a great deal of emphasis placed around his dragon scales to the point where it's been one of the main secrets to his incredibly durability and one of the primary obstacles to putting the hurt on him.



There's a reason why Ryuuma was so esteemed for being able to slay one. Not to say other top-tiers wouldn't have bagged that dragon as well, but there's a stark difference between _"this is something top-tiers are capable of"_ and _"this is at best a PH level feat"_



Lmao said:


> 2. Are you seriously asking why people aren't worshipping Kinemon for a slaying a dragon this size:
> 
> 
> 
> in a 2v1?



That dragon was said to be an improved model that was even more durable than the one that Zoro and Luffy faced.

If you're saying this dragon is lame and can't compare to taking down the real thing then it seems we're finally on the same page.



Lmao said:


> See the problem is you can replace Mihawk with Ryuuma in this panel and the same statement would apply: the strongest in the world, with a sword that is. Then there's the fact Wano as an isolationist country didn't have a point of reference as to what world class strength looked like, I'm sure under the same circumstances Luffy would be praised as a battle god for his current fighting ability.
> 
> At the end of the day Monsters existed before One Piece was fleshed out to the point it is today so we have more info and points of reference to work with. We now know being the strongest swordsman in the world doesn't mean you are stronger than everyone else as we have someone comparable to Ryuuma in Mihawk who was also canonically weaker than Whitebeard (pre sickness). It truly is hard to outdo Primebeard.



There wasn't a _"with a sword that is"_ asterisk on the title though, he was just called the world's strongest. Here's full context of that bar scene.

_"It's said his skills with a sword are second only to the great swordsman King."

"The King huh... He holds the reputation of being the strongest in the world, too."_

The first line statement establishes that King is the #1 swordsman, and then Ryuuma chimes in that he's not only that but also the strongest person in the world as well. We also are told he has the greatest _"warriors soul"_ as the one-shot puts it.


----------



## Corax (Mar 14, 2022)

Well all I can say for sure is that Ryuma is>prime Oden. Since he is the only one with sword god title from Wano.


----------



## TheNirou (Mar 14, 2022)

Ryuma is overrated, he was the WSM/WSS of his era but guys from his era are unknown and featless.

Realistically he is at best on par with Mihawk. The dude doesn't have the true pinacle of swordsmanship.

Mihawk has Yoru which is a Saijo O Wazamono unlike Ryuma who has Shusui which is an O Wazamono. Ryuma is Mihawk with a weaker sword.

Primebeard has a Saijo O Wazamono, one of the strongest DF and he's one of the best haki users of the manga alongside Roger, Garp... Primebeard is extremely versatile.


Primebeard eats him with high diff at worst.

Reactions: Like 3 | Neutral 1


----------



## Chip Skylark (Mar 14, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> It's funny how everyone keeps talking about Ryuuma traumatizing the WG while ignoring the fact that despite Kaido literally being in his most vulnerable state, the WG, with its fleet assembled to take Wano won't dare advance without confirmation of his defeat.
> 
> Again, Ryuuma's hype at best places him in the company of the Yonko. Anything more is baseless wank.


Wasnt even just Ryuma. I’m wondering why Oden’s contribution is being ignored.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## KBD (Mar 14, 2022)

Dude was called a god.. he is obviously > Weak Beard

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Mar 14, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Wasnt even just Ryuma. I’m wondering why Oden’s contribution is being ignored.


Coz it goes against the narrative.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Ludi (Mar 14, 2022)

convict said:


> if you compare the two polls you would think Primebeard mid diffs Kaido or something

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 14, 2022)

KBD said:


> Dude was called a god


so was Enel & Gan Fall

meaningless title from the well that is Wano

Reactions: Agree 3 | Tier Specialist 2


----------



## Orca (Mar 14, 2022)

It all makes sense now why Oda decided to create Weevil. This dude about to channel his inner Primebeard.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Rp4lyf (Mar 14, 2022)

Ryuma cannot be grouped with Prime Peak Roger. Roger was a version of joyboy.


----------



## ShWanks (Mar 14, 2022)

Imo Ryuma is the most legendary character in the series and protected an entire country all by himself from the WG, continent pulling Giant Oni the size of Onigashima, and the most dangerous criminals in existence. No one has that kind of hype. In fact, Akainu was more threatened by the power of Ryuma than Kaido who should be at least comparable to Primebeard.

Reactions: Like 3 | Tier Specialist 5


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Mar 15, 2022)

I don't think anyone besides Luffy is going to be a reincarnation. Even then, there's a small chance he might not be.

BB might play the role of Xebec to Luffy, but that parallel is like Roger's to Luffy's. Yet no one's saying Luffy is Roger reborn. Also BB is 40 years old. God valley was 38 years ago. BB was already born by then.

Same with Zoro and Ryuma. If Zoro ends up doing his ZKK, we can then definitively say he parallels Ryuma. However, that only makes his case similar to Xebec/BB and Luffy/Roger. Oda had to come out and say Luffy is Joy Boy before we could confirm Luffy is his reincarnation or something like that.


----------



## Navy Scribe (Mar 15, 2022)

Ryu is at least as strong as prime oden to god tier level ,but WB has good experience and more versatility + Gura so I’d give him the win in most scenarios ,depending on what it takes to make a black blade would be the only thing that could change the outcome


----------



## MrPopo (Mar 15, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> the "frog in the well" quote actually applies to the people who think the strongest character has to be from the last 100 years and not someone in the past
> 
> you guys don't see the irony in using the "frog in the well" quote? 800 years of history and you're all certain the strongest person has to be the dude we already met


Luffy the one that will fill full joyboys will is only one hype to surpass Roger and Whitebeard. 

Unless you belive EoS Luffy mid difffs or stomps Whitebeard or Roger it's reasonslible to say Roger and Whitebeard are the strongest characters so far


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 15, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Luffy the one that will fill full joyboys will is only one hype to surpass Roger and Whitebeard.
> 
> Unless you belive EoS Luffy mid difffs or stomps Whitebeard or Roger it's reasonslible to say Roger and Whitebeard are the strongest characters so far



if the new generation surpasses the old generation, then why wouldn’t Blackbeard of the [Blocked Domain] not surpass prime beard?

so at the very least, it would be luffy > Blackbeard > primebeard, right?

now I’m not sure what your opinion on imu is, but if he’s supposed to be the final villain and defeated after one piece is discovered….then there’s a possibility of luffy > Imu > Blackbeard > primebeard


----------



## MrPopo (Mar 16, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> if the new generation surpasses the old generation, then why wouldn’t Blackbeard of the [Blocked Domain] not surpass prime beard?
> 
> so at the very least, it would be luffy > Blackbeard > primebeard, right?
> 
> now I’m not sure what your opinion on imu is, but if he’s supposed to be the final villain and defeated after one piece is discovered….then there’s a possibility of luffy > Imu > Blackbeard > primebeard


They could however it would be more along the line of 
Luffy ~ Imu ~ Blackbeard > Primebeard 

Unless Oda shits the bed with Power inflation

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## A Optimistic (Mar 16, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Unless Oda shits the bed with Power inflation



I suppose we’ll see in two weeks


----------



## Tsukuyomi (Mar 16, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> I suppose we’ll see in two weeks


Ava 
(Edit. When are you dropping your next single).


----------



## Strobacaxi (Mar 16, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Unless Oda shits the bed with Power inflation


He hasn't in 20 years I doubt he will now


----------



## ShWanks (Mar 16, 2022)

Blackbeard is gonna lose to Luffy before he surpasses Whitebeard.


----------



## Rp4lyf (Jun 10, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> They could however it would be more along the line of
> Luffy ~ Imu ~ Blackbeard > Primebeard
> 
> Unless Oda shits the bed with Power inflation


Nope, Lufy will bet Blackbeard WITHOUT USING his devil fruit. Meaning he is still got 1 more level of CoC to obtain. This Level of CoC is exclusively available to CoC Specialist which Roger and Shanks are like Luffy.

And when you add that third level of CoC(Roger?Shansk CoC) to A MASTERED Nika Devil Fruiit, you get Luffy being above Blackbeard and will use those powers to beat IMU.


----------



## Pimp of Pimps (Dec 29, 2022)

No way to tell with any degree of certainty of course, but I think Ryuma being stronger that prime Whitebeard and Roger is actually a good possibility.


----------



## Unresponsive (Dec 29, 2022)

Whitebeard abuses.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Ludi (Dec 29, 2022)

I honestly could see Ryuuma winning, but it depends on which road Oda takes. Primebeard could stomp too


----------



## The crazy hacker (Dec 29, 2022)

Primebeard extreme diff. Beating Kaido is a Ryuma level feat and Primebeard very high diffs Kaido.


----------



## Amol (Dec 29, 2022)

This is obviously not much of fight.
There is absolutely no argument to be made for Ryuma. He is fucking nobody.

By hype, portrayal and feats WB beats his ass. Hell as far as I am concerned Old WB beats his ass.
Really not sure why this featless dude is so wanked.


----------



## Yagami Uchiha (Dec 29, 2022)

Ruyma is featless for the 1000th of time. At least Shanks has the Yonko title.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Yagami Uchiha (Dec 29, 2022)

Amol said:


> This is obviously not much of fight.
> There is absolutely no argument to be made for Ryuma. He is fucking nobody.
> 
> By hype, portrayal and feats WB beats his ass. Hell as far as I am concerned Old WB beats his ass.
> Really not sure why this featless dude is so wanked.


His similar appearance to Zoro.


----------



## Pimp of Pimps (Dec 29, 2022)

Amol said:


> This is obviously not much of fight.
> There is absolutely no argument to be made for Ryuma. He is fucking nobody.
> 
> By hype, portrayal and feats WB beats his ass. Hell as far as I am concerned Old WB beats his ass.
> Really not sure why this featless dude is so wanked.


Being the strongest man in the world during his time is being nobody?

Also. it’s pretty obvious what direction Oda is trying to go with Ryuma.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Dec 29, 2022)

Problem is Ryuma isn't active outside of Wano. So he has no more plot relevance past Wano arc. This is as far as he goes, rated below Primebeard and being compared to end of Wano Luffy by Wano residents.


----------



## Gledania (Dec 29, 2022)

His strenght go from being stronger than WB to weaker than WB.

Basically he came from we don't know when ,fought we don't know who.

Featless characters shouldn't have a thread over them.


----------



## Orca (Dec 29, 2022)

Amol said:


> This is obviously not much of fight.
> There is absolutely no argument to be made for Ryuma. He is fucking nobody.
> 
> By hype, portrayal and feats WB beats his ass. Hell as far as I am concerned Old WB beats his ass.
> Really not sure why this featless dude is so wanked.



He was the strongest man in his time, had a black blade, was titled the Sword God and is revered in a country where the standard for top tiers is set by Oden.

I personally don’t think he deserves the nod over WB either but saying that he’s a nobody is the other side of the extreme as well.


----------



## Gledania (Dec 29, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Problem is Ryuma isn't active outside of Wano


We don't know that.


----------



## Eustathios (Dec 29, 2022)

Outside of Wano he's the guy whose reputation alone was enough to keep the WG out of Wano for centuries. Not saying that makes him stronger than WB necessarily, but the point is that he was a feared force even outside of his homeland.


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Dec 30, 2022)

Gledania said:


> We don't know that.


Based on everything that's been revealed about Ryuma, he hasn't accomplished anything noteworthy outside of Wano. Keeping WG out is at best a yonkou level feat.

No one who's not from Wano even mentions him aside from the two arcs he appeared in.

We're only going off of what we know.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Pimp of Pimps (Dec 30, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Based on everything that's been revealed about Ryuma, he hasn't accomplished anything noteworthy outside of Wano.
> 
> No one who's not from Wano even mentions him aside from the two arcs he appeared in.
> 
> We're only going off of what we know.


Nothing about Ryuma tells us that he did or didn’t accomplish anything outside of Wano. Not that it matters, because he was the strongest in the world during his era not just the strongest in Wano


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Dec 30, 2022)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> Nothing about Ryuma tells us that he did or didn’t accomplish anything outside of Wano.


Lack of mention of his name outside of Wano , and lack of mention of his feats that happened outside Wano. Not even a foreshadowing of any kind that he played a bigger role than what's been revealed. I'm guessing he did venture outside of Wano, but of all the territories that the Strawhats passed over in the span of 1050+ chapters there was no mention of Ryuma having accomplished anything worth mentioning his name in those territories. 

Roger and WB by comparison are names that are known all over the Grand Line.


Pimp of Pimps said:


> Not that it matters, because he was the strongest in the world during his era not just the strongest in Wano


Hearsay uttered by one Wano citizen that was never confirmed like WB's title was. The other citizen in the dialogue didn't even know Ryuma's reputation as the rumoured WSM.


----------



## Pimp of Pimps (Dec 30, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Lack of mention of his name outside of Wano , and lack of mention of his feats that happened outside Wano. Not even a foreshadowing of any kind that he played a bigger role than what's been revealed.
> 
> Roger and WB by comparison are names that are known all over the Grand Line.
> 
> Hearsay uttered by one Wano citizen that was never confirmed like WB's title was. The other citizen in the dialogue didn't even know Ryuma's reputation as the rumoured WSM.


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The correct answer is to say we don’t know whether or not he accomplished anything outside of Wano,  but you said based on what we know he didn’t. Two very different things.

Given what we know, it’s pretty obvious he went on more adventures and made more of a name for himself after the events of Monsters.

This is a children’s comic, it isn’t going to be that complicated. There is a clear narrative being built around the character.


----------



## Heart Over Blade (Dec 30, 2022)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The correct answer is to say we don’t know whether or not he accomplished anything outside of Wano, but you said based on what we know he didn’t. Two very different things.





Pimp of Pimps said:


> Given what we know, it’s pretty obvious he went on more adventures and made more of a name for himself after the events of Monsters.



Based on what we know he didn't, is basically another way of saying absence of evidence.

He went on more adventures, yet his name isn't as widely known and mentioned on the same scale as Roger and WB. In fact almost no one who isn't from Wano even mentions him except for the one pre-skip arc where his body was reanimated as a zombie. 



Pimp of Pimps said:


> This is a children’s comic, it isn’t going to be that complicated. There is a clear narrative being built around the character.


Yep, it's not that complicated and not that hard to see the difference. WB's title appeared in narrator boxes and was confirmed by multiple sources. While Ryuma's status as WSM was uttered by only one person, with the other person in the dialogue not even knowing about it. As if rumors and exaggerations uttered by random fodders haven't been wrong on enough occasions? In other words, it's portrayed as hearsay. Oda could've chosen to give Ryuma a title box too so his title can be perceived as legitimate as WB's, but Oda chose not to. Same in the databooks.


----------



## Kroczilla (Dec 30, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Outside of Wano he's the guy whose reputation alone was enough to keep the WG out of Wano for centuries


Pretty sure that was due to the WG/Marines belief that Wano had a lot of powerful swordsmen. At best, you could say that the WG believed Wano had several Ryuuma/Oden level fighters.


----------



## MrPopo (Dec 30, 2022)

All this black blade wank don't forget that GB was one as well which is perfect to use for the Admiral agenda

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Eustathios (Dec 30, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Pretty sure that was due to the *WG/Marines belief that Wano had a lot of powerful swordsmen.* At best, you could say that the WG believed Wano had several Ryuuma/Oden level fighters.


Which was due to Ryuma beating them.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Wh1p (Dec 30, 2022)

Joyboy & Ryuma > anyone

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Dec 30, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Which was due to Ryuma beating them.



We don't know the Quality of opponents that Ryuuma faced from the WG. Not to mention, they pretty much give every Yonko the same deference in staying clear off their territory. Heck they only recently decided to move their base into the same sphere of influence held by the Yonko and even then, pretty much stayed in their own lane. 

Already stated this earlier. The hype for Ryuuma places him at Yonko level. That's not quite enough to say he can take down Prime beard.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Soba (Dec 30, 2022)

Primebeard takes it. Probably gonna be on the lower end of High diff.


----------



## Mihawk (Dec 30, 2022)

I'm still giving the benefit of a doubt to Primebeard until we actually see anything related to Ryuuma in combat, besides killing some dragon. 

Ryuuma was the strongest of his era. We know nothing about that era or its field...
The Government feared Ryuuma to the point that they never invaded Wano. Well, the Government didn't the same due to Samurai and Kaido. That doesn't tell us much of anything or how he compares to the Pirate King.

It's true that Oda places Ryuuma on some pedestal here. However, I'd argue that he places Prime WB on an even higher pedestal from what's been shown so far.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Seraphoenix (Dec 30, 2022)

Too little info to say. Oda would probably lean towards WB, though.


----------



## bil02 (Dec 30, 2022)

WB gets the benefit of the doubt for being wsm in a likely stonger era but wouldn't be surprised if ryuuma was on par.


----------



## Pharaonik (Dec 30, 2022)

Primebeard takes it... I think Ryuma should push him to high diff at the very least.  Ryuma does have hype but no one knows if his opponents were on Primebeard level.


----------



## Aldren (Dec 30, 2022)

Safest bet would be to have Ryuma as PK lvl. You can still say WB is a bit stronger. Extreme diff either way.


----------



## J★J♥ (Dec 31, 2022)

Beast said:


> Easy bookmark.
> 
> that’s the 23 main Ztards.
> 
> WB is stronger then any swordsman’s whoever lived and will ever live


Ryma was the strongest man not strongest swordsman.
And he was strongest man in a stronger age.


----------



## Onyx Emperor (Dec 31, 2022)

The fuck? Oldbeard destroys tens of ryumas, let alone primebeards.


----------



## Beast (Dec 31, 2022)

J★J♥ said:


> Ryma was the strongest man not strongest swordsman.
> And he was strongest man in a stronger age.


The strongest man when and compared to who?

WB is the official WSM and it’s in the pirate era aka the most chaotic and dangerous era. 

Dudes hype is killing a dragon…. A PH feat.


----------



## o0Shinthi0o (Dec 31, 2022)

J★J♥ said:


> Ryma was the strongest man not strongest swordsman.
> And he was strongest man in a stronger age.


Stronger era ? Who was he stronger than ?


----------



## Beast (Dec 31, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Stronger era ? Who was he stronger than ?


Mengoku. Sengokus ancestor, first gen Marine.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## J★J♥ (Dec 31, 2022)

Beast said:


> The strongest man when and compared to who?
> 
> WB is the official WSM and it’s in the pirate era aka the most chaotic and dangerous era.
> 
> Dudes hype is killing a dragon…. A PH feat.


Apperently stronger than everyone including WG in it's prime.


----------



## Beast (Dec 31, 2022)

J★J♥ said:


> Apperently stronger than everyone including WG in it's prime.


Apparently ain’t cutting it dawg.


----------



## Steven (Dec 31, 2022)

No reason to believe Ryuma would be a top-tier in the current Era

WB stomps


----------



## Pimp of Pimps (Dec 31, 2022)

My personal opinion, backed by nothing except a feeling I admit, is that Ryuma has something to do with Joyboy. If he does, I think it’s possible he was on par or stronger than Roger. Otherwise, if he was in any other era, there’s no way he can match or surpass Whitebeard and Roger.


----------



## Great Potato (Dec 31, 2022)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> My personal opinion, backed by nothing except a feeling I admit, is that Ryuma has something to do with Joyboy. If he does, I think it’s possible he was on par or stronger than Roger. Otherwise, if he was in any other era, there’s no way he can match or surpass Whitebeard and Roger.



If Ryuuma were alive at the same time as Joyboy then I very much doubt he'd be the WSM, because Joyboy has a good argument for being the strongest in the franchise.


----------



## Strobacaxi (Dec 31, 2022)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> Ryuma has something to do with Joyboy


There were 400 years between them


----------



## Pimp of Pimps (Dec 31, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> If Ryuuma were alive at the same time as Joyboy then I very much doubt he'd be the WSM, because Joyboy has a good argument for being the strongest in the franchise.


Agreed. It could be that Ryuma was the WSM at one point and then Joyboy surpassed him. But again, this is all just speculation with zero basis. Just an idea I cooked up.


----------



## Pimp of Pimps (Dec 31, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> There were 400 years between them


Do we know exactly when Ryuma lived?


----------



## Strobacaxi (Dec 31, 2022)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> Do we know exactly when Ryuma lived?


I think it was said in a magazine or databook that he lived 400 years ago


----------

