# Warcraft-verse vs. Star Wars-verse



## Jon Snow (Sep 3, 2009)

Haven't done massive amounts of research on beings such as Medivh-Sargeras and any of the old Sith Lords.

Anything goes

Warcraft vs. EU Star Wars


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## Zaru (Sep 3, 2009)

Do we count the titans?

They shaped planetary surfaces for the lulz  and were the strongest beings in warcraftverse, which makes it safe to say they'd rip apart death stars and whatever else EU SW has with a flick of their finger

Normal warcraftverse characters aren't all that impressive in comparison.


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## Raigen (Sep 3, 2009)

Sargeras stomps whole verse solo.


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## Shoddragon (Sep 3, 2009)

joke? with EU luke manipulating black holes and palpatine mind raping entire planets? they use the force to tear apart the warcraft verse.


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## Zaru (Sep 3, 2009)

Shoddragon said:


> joke? with EU luke manipulating black holes and palpatine mind raping entire planets? they use the force to tear apart the warcraft verse.



Define manipulating

And what does mindraping fodder do against titans


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## Gig (Sep 3, 2009)

Zaru said:


> Do we count the titans?
> 
> They shaped planetary surfaces for the lulz  and were the strongest beings in warcraftverse, which makes it safe to say they'd rip apart death stars and whatever else EU SW has with a flick of their finger
> 
> Normal warcraftverse characters aren't all that impressive in comparison.


Unimpressive 

Victory Class Star Destroyers "reshape" the surface of planets for the luz and can do so in an hour and there some of the weakest ships in the Imperial navy.

Counterpoint station can move planets thousands of light years away from there original position to create perfect star systems

The Star Forge can canonly create an Near-Infinite self maintaining armada 

The Sun Crusher can survive being cast into a Blackhole and can destroy entire solar systems with 1 missile which causes a Super Nova   

Upper tier ships in starwars can BDZ worlds in less than an hour the only reason the Death star was needed is because rich planetary government can afford high end planetary shields which can resist orbital bombardment for months possible years. 

A single shot from a Deathstar produces more energy than our sun can produces in 700 hundred years so 1 shot from a Deathstar will royally fuck any being in Warcraft including the Titans


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## Hellspawn28 (Sep 3, 2009)

Warcraft has two gods that made a muti-solar system IIRC.


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## Tenacious Lee (Sep 3, 2009)

Shoddragon said:


> joke? with EU luke manipulating black holes and palpatine mind raping entire planets? they use the force to tear apart the warcraft verse.



yeah you definately don't know warcraft lore

the titans, or probably just one of them, would solo

they shit out solar systems for the lulz


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## Fang (Sep 3, 2009)

Celestials created an entire artifical solar system and solar system busters.

Sounds like Warcraft wank.


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## Gig (Sep 3, 2009)

Tenacious Lee said:


> they shit out solar systems for the lulz


Really? 

Please back up this claim with evidence since Sargeras the strongest warrior amongst  the Titans was injured by an Axe thrown by Broxigar who was a mere Ork at the end of the day


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## ZenGamr (Sep 3, 2009)

Gotta love fantasy -vs- Sci-Fi threads.


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## Platinum (Sep 3, 2009)

Star Wars in a stomp.


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## Darth Nihilus (Sep 3, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __


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## Raigen (Sep 3, 2009)

Sargeras was of the strongest amongst the Pantheon, but never stated as the most powerful. Titans created over 100-million worlds and formed the Well of Eternity which is an infinite source of cosmic energy that connects to thousands of locations across multiple dimensional planes. Their "seat" on the world is in an alternate dimension called the "Chamber of Aspects" which is where the Aspects meet when called together. From that place the Titans shaped the world and it's a cavern so vast entire kingdoms could fit inside it and the walls and floor are perfectly symmetrical and impossibly smooth. They also empowered the Aspects, of which Nozdormu is a literal part of Time itself and exists infinitely across all of time. And even if all 5 Aspects were together, they'd be little more than an insect next to a Titan in power.

Sargeras's mere presence will destroy the world if he enters it. He torments souls and brings them back as demons at his whim. And to make matters worse any one of the Old Gods at the height of their power would spank Sargeras like he's a little bitch.


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## Fang (Sep 3, 2009)

Darth Nihilus said:


> *Spoiler*: __




*Spoiler*: __


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## Darth Nihilus (Sep 3, 2009)

TWF said:


> *Spoiler*: __


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## Raigen (Sep 3, 2009)

All of that is completely meaningless.


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## RAGING BONER (Sep 3, 2009)

Lich King solo's


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## Raigen (Sep 3, 2009)

Jedi, Sith, the Force. Meaningless, worthless, helpless before the Dark God.


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## Fang (Sep 3, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __


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## Darth Nihilus (Sep 3, 2009)

TWF said:


> *Spoiler*: __


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## Ulti (Sep 3, 2009)

Thats a spicy meatball.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 3, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Sargeras was of the strongest amongst the Pantheon, but never stated as the most powerful. Titans created over 100-million worlds and formed the Well of Eternity which is an infinite source of cosmic energy that connects to thousands of locations across multiple dimensional planes. Their "seat" on the world is in an alternate dimension called the "Chamber of Aspects" which is where the Aspects meet when called together. From that place the Titans shaped the world and it's a cavern so vast entire kingdoms could fit inside it and the walls and floor are perfectly symmetrical and impossibly smooth. They also empowered the Aspects, of which Nozdormu is a literal part of Time itself and exists infinitely across all of time. And even if all 5 Aspects were together, they'd be little more than an insect next to a Titan in power.
> 
> Sargeras's mere presence will destroy the world if he enters it. He torments souls and brings them back as demons at his whim. And to make matters worse any one of the Old Gods at the height of their power would spank Sargeras like he's a little bitch.



Raigen stop wanking. I'm a WoW player and fan, and I haven't come across half the stuff you stated in this post.

The is only canonical involvement that WoW lore mentions the titans having is on Azeroth, which they shaped. Where is the proof for their involvement on 100-million different worlds? Also, define "shaping." Adding a minor colony to a barren desert world could be considered "shaping." If they had 100-million colonies, that's still not very impressive. And the saddest thing is, even if they DID shape 100-million different worlds like Azeroth, that merely puts them on par with the Star Wars races together, who've done the same. 

The Well of Eternity was never stated to be infinite. Immense, yes. Infinite, no. It's like the difference between Galactus and ToAA. One is an immense power, the other is an infinite power.

The Chamber of the Aspects is a room under Wyrmrest Temple. I don't see what's so special about it, other than its historical significance as the place where the Demon Soul was made. There is nothing mentioning that the Titans met there, only the Aspects. And as far as the power hierarchy goes, Aspects aren't that strong. Malygos was defeated in his own realm, not by another aspect or demigod, but by a raid group aided by minor red drakes.

Nozdormu's powers are literally the height of demonstratable feats by the Aspects. His powers to alter time are not insignificant, but his greatest feat is sending a group of players back in time maybe 4-5 years. He hasn't demonstrated the ability to travel hundreds/thousands of years back and kill everyone in Star Wars before they were born.

Sargeras' power is pretty pathetic if you think about it. He needed Azshara, a mortal queen with magical powers, to summon him into Azeroth through the Well. If he's so powerful, why couldn't he just travel there himself?

The other Titans obviously had no trouble entering Azeroth without assistance when they shaped the world. 

There is no mention of anything impeding his progress either, so it's not like the Pantheon were holding him back and keeping him out of Azeroth. 

Overall, this is a fantasy realm centered around 2 worlds, Azeroth and Outland, vs. a sci-fi realm centered around the entire galaxy. The only quantifiable feats the Titans have is the creation of a single world, which while not insignificant, barely rivals the achievements of a galactic civilization.

The sources for all of my info can be found here: tables. Search for Chamber of Aspects/etc.

EDIT: And the rest of you need to stop being retarded and posting images with no cohesive argument behind it. 

We get it, you think Star Wars wins. Posting multiple duplicate images/videos about it isn't going to convince anyone who wasn't convinced the first time.


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## Ulti (Sep 3, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> *Raigen stop wanking.* I'm a WoW player and fan, and I haven't come across half the stuff you stated in this post.
> 
> The is only canonical involvement that WoW lore mentions the titans having is on Azeroth, which they shaped. Where is the proof for their involvement on 100-million different worlds? Also, define "shaping." Adding a minor colony to a barren desert world could be considered "shaping." If they had 100-million colonies, that's still not very impressive. And the saddest thing is, even if they DID shape 100-million different worlds like Azeroth, that merely puts them on par with the Star Wars races together, who've done the same.
> 
> ...



Impossible, it's like asking Swiper to stop swiping.


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## Fang (Sep 3, 2009)

Did you really post a Star Destroyer against the Sun Crusher, Nihilus.


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## Zaru (Sep 3, 2009)

> Where is the proof for their involvement on 100-million different worlds? Also, define "shaping." Adding a minor colony to a barren desert world could be considered "shaping."



The pdf on the RoC disk mentions 100 million worlds and stuff like breathing out atmospheres and shaping mountains, which obviously was a casual task for them


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## Darth Nihilus (Sep 3, 2009)

Nah, I just approve of it moar


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## Fang (Sep 3, 2009)

Celestials created artifical solar systems.

More impressive than that assuming it's not baseless hyperbole for the Titans.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 3, 2009)

Zaru said:


> The pdf on the RoC disk mentions 100 million worlds and stuff like breathing out atmospheres and shaping mountains, which obviously was a casual task for them



Making a mountain isn't hard. Hulk could do it with raw strength. Superman could do it. Hell, even Tony Stark could probably make a small mountain.

And now that you remind me of this info, I bring up another point: The titans didn't even actually form the planet Azeroth. They merely terraformed it, making oceans, raising mountains, etc. That is very underwhelming.

Also, the discs are a lot like the Naruto Databooks: lots of hyperbole, no concrete examples. 

Which planets besides Azeroth did the Titans shape? Without concrete feats, saying they "shaped millions of worlds" is like "Amteratsu is as hot as the sun."


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## Zaru (Sep 3, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Making a mountain isn't hard. Hulk could do it with raw strength. Superman could do it. Hell, even Tony Stark could probably make a small mountain.
> 
> And now that you remind me of this info, I bring up another point: The titans didn't even actually form the planet Azeroth. They merely terraformed it, making oceans, raising mountains, etc. That is very underwhelming.
> 
> ...



We don't have much info on titans so sadly the additional lore about them is important info.

Though yes, they weren't stated to have created the planets, their task was forming worlds out of the chaos, where planets already existed.

The pdf throws around hyperboles like "infinite" on a few occasions where it doesn't make sense.


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## Fenix (Sep 3, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> warcraft stuff etc



Slight correction: He doesn't need to travel back in time, he literally exists in every instant of time itself. As for why he never does anything, because he's been taught by the Pantheon to not screw with time. 

The reason for Sargeras not able to enter Azeroth is actually because he is too powerful. A stupid explanation from the lore team (as you mentioned the original Azeroth were entered by the Titans) but canon nonetheless. 



> EDIT: And the rest of you need to stop being retarded and posting images with no cohesive argument behind it.
> 
> We get it, you think Star Wars wins. Posting multiple duplicate images/videos about it isn't going to convince anyone who wasn't convinced the first time.



Oo careful now, twf is going to tell on you in the convo thread!


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## Gnome (Sep 3, 2009)

I don't know anything about SW EU so i won't make an opinion. 
I'll post this though in-case it helps Warcraftverse any.

"I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames. Their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and raised in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once." - Algalon the Observer

Makers' are the Titans.


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## Cronos (Sep 3, 2009)

warcraft


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## Corrupt Deity (Sep 3, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Sargeras's mere presence will destroy the world if he enters it. He torments souls and brings them back as demons at his whim. And to make matters worse any one of the Old Gods at the height of their power would spank Sargeras like he's a little bitch.



Sargeras did enter Azeroth (partially) and split the continent, it didn't destroy the world. 

And the Old Gods would not spank Sargeras; Afterall he is the champion amongst the Titans and the Titans won the war against the Old Gods to obtain Azeroth.

Oh and i think WoW takes this fight. Since Titans are casual galaxy creators, they could probably casually destroy them too.


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## Fenix (Sep 3, 2009)

Corrupt Deity said:


> Sargeras did enter Azeroth (partially) and split the continent, it didn't destroy the world.



He never entered the world. The Well got destroyed and sucked all the Demons back, then exploded. That's what divided the continent. 




> And the Old Gods would not spank Sargeras; Afterall he is the champion amongst the Titans and the Titans won the war against the Old Gods to obtain Azeroth.



Yea but there were way more Titans than the Old Gods. The Old Gods themselves said it had taken the combined effort of many Titans to imprison them and a single Titan like Sargeras will be easy to beat for them. This was all in the War of Ancients trilogy


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## Fang (Sep 3, 2009)

Gig said:


> Really?
> 
> Please back up this claim with evidence since Sargeras the strongest warrior amongst  the Titans was injured by an Axe thrown by Broxigar who was a mere Ork at the end of the day





So how strong are these Titans at their best Gig.


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## Fenix (Sep 3, 2009)

Gig is probably too busy shouting at people to not post in fights they don't know, then doing the exact same thing himself in other threads. 

The axe was crafted by two of Azeroth's greatest (natural) residents through some stupid magical process, and the "wound" was emphasized time and time again to be nothing more than something that merely made Sargeras aware of it for a split second, even less than a mosquito bite.


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## Corrupt Deity (Sep 3, 2009)

Fenix said:


> Yea but there were way more Titans than the Old Gods. The Old Gods themselves said it had taken the combined effort of many Titans to imprison them and a single Titan like Sargeras will be easy to beat for them. This was all in the War of Ancients trilogy



Ya but the Old Gods weren't alone up against the Titans, they had Their armies and elemental lieutenants too. So between a single Old god and Sargeras who would win? I think Sarg


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## Fenix (Sep 3, 2009)

It's kind heavily implied that 1on1 an old god would win.

But there is no real evidence either way anyway, shrug. The Titans themselves vary greatly in strength as well.


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## Raigen (Sep 3, 2009)

Nothing I've stated has been wank. Just playing the game does not make you a WoW expert. You need to get off your asses and read the novels. You can't say something is untrue without proving it is. Being ignorant of the various sources on WoW lore doesn't make you better than anyone else. Read all the Novels; "The Well of Eternity, The Demon Soul, the Sundering" for War of the Ancients Trilogy. There is also "Day of the Dragon", "The Last Guardian", "Rise of the Horde", "Beyond the Dark Portal", "Night of the Dragon", "Tides of Darkness", "Lord of the Clans", "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King", "Cycle of Hatred", and then there's the Sunwell Trilogy Manga along with the Warcraft: Legends manga and both Warcraft comic series, one that tells the story of Varian Wrynn and a 4 part comic series about the Origins of the Ashbringer.

Until you have read up on all of these things, your knowledge of WoW is negligible. At least Fenix knows what's goin on here.


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## Corrupt Deity (Sep 3, 2009)

I've read about 7 of them so far. I'm just starting "Cycle of Hatred". And i just thought since Sarg is implied as the strongest Titan then he could beat an old god, but you're right theres no evidence so oh well.


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## Corrupt Deity (Sep 3, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Nothing I've stated has been wank. Just playing the game does not make you a WoW expert. You need to get off your asses and read the novels. You can't say something is untrue without proving it is. Being ignorant of the various sources on WoW lore doesn't make you better than anyone else. Read all the Novels; "The Well of Eternity, The Demon Soul, the Sundering" for War of the Ancients Trilogy. There is also "Day of the Dragon", "The Last Guardian", "Rise of the Horde", "Beyond the Dark Portal", "Night of the Dragon", "Tides of Darkness", "Lord of the Clans", "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King", "Cycle of Hatred", and then there's the Sunwell Trilogy Manga along with the Warcraft: Legends manga and both Warcraft comic series, one that tells the story of Varian Wrynn and a 4 part comic series about the Origins of the Ashbringer.



Just wondering. Is there a particular order to them? I've just been reading them randomly.


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## Raigen (Sep 3, 2009)

In "War of the Ancients" Krasus became aware that the Old Gods were trying to escape and feared that prospect far more than Sargeras, openly stating that Sargeras would be no match for them at all. As the Aspects would be barely noticeable to Sargeras, Sargeras would be as a child next to an Old God. Remember, the Titans had to gang up on the Old Gods as a race just to stop them. It takes a group of Titans to face one Old God. Even if Sargeras was their strongest Warrior (one more adept for fighting), it doesn't mean he was the most powerful overall. He was left in charge of being the Warden for the Twisting Nether to ensure the Demons of that plane didn't cause havoc.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 3, 2009)

Gig said:


> The Sun Crusher can survive being cast into a Blackhole



No it can't.



> A single shot from a Deathstar produces more energy than our sun can produces in 700 hundred years



Closer to 8000 years, actually.

Anyway all I'm seeing from the Warcraft side is unquantifiable wank. Show me proof that they could survive a supernova or DS blast.


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## Fang (Sep 4, 2009)

Gig says that because there was nothing indicating the Sun Crusher was destroyed when sent into one of the Maw's black holes, it just says it was swallowed into one.

- Surviving in the center of a gas giant like Bespin
- tanking hits from the prototype Death Star's superlaser
- ramming through Imperial-class Star Destroyers


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## Raigen (Sep 4, 2009)

Show me anyone in SW can even have a thought before being instantaneous mindrapped or skinmelted or dimension dumped or time frozen/reversed/forward or blown to particles or erased or any number of other things. You're looking for durability feats on Cosmic entities when they're not even main focus and their battle with the Old Gods is alluded to, not shown. Given they treat planets like sand castles, I don't figure there's a damn thing in the whole SW-verse that can even gain their attention.


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## Fang (Sep 4, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Anyway all I'm seeing from the Warcraft side is unquantifiable wank. Show me proof that they could survive a supernova or DS blast.



No mention of Centerpoint Station, the Vong biowank or the Celestial's solar system buster?


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## neodragzero (Sep 4, 2009)

Starwarsverse of course wins. To argue otherwise is to deny reality and/or be Raigen.


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## Fang (Sep 4, 2009)

Speaking of which did you finish the Bane novels?


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## neodragzero (Sep 4, 2009)

Yes, a while ago. I'm waiting for the third book to come out.


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## Raigen (Sep 4, 2009)

Right you can't give reason as to how SW-verse could win and claim I'm evading reality...which is impossible since this is all fictional anyway. Anything goes. Portals open up on every planet in SW-verse and endless hordes of the Burning Legion pour through and destroy everything. Nozdormu speed-ages everyone in the SW-verse a few million years in seconds and kills them all off. Ysera mindfucks them into oblivion with the dreams/nightmares/souls of every living creature to have ever existed all at once. Malygos erases them with giant balls of pure magic.


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## neodragzero (Sep 4, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Right you can't give reason as to how SW-verse could win and claim I'm evading reality...which is impossible since this is all fictional anyway.


The reality is numerously given scans of Star Wars destruction feats and someone who happens to be a Warcraft fan other than you disagrees with your massive hyperbole wank. I rather just go with what's proven rather than just take your word for it.


> Anything goes. Portals open up on every planet in SW-verse and endless hordes of the Burning Legion pour through and destroy everything.


Endless? You consider a ground assault a good idea in a verse with ships that can lay waste to planetary surfaces, planets, stars, etc.?


> Nozdormu speed-ages everyone in the SW-verse a few million years in seconds and kills them all off. Ysera mindfucks them into oblivion with the dreams/nightmares/souls of every living creature to have ever existed all at once. Malygos erases them with giant balls of pure magic.



In other words, more spouted statements with no proof provided and general reek of hyperbole crapola. Thanks for reminding me who you are.


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## Omnirix (Sep 4, 2009)

Its hard to say who wins because the titans or Sargeras or Old Gods have yet to use their full potential or haven't got bloodlusted yet. But as far as I have seen, Palpatine is like a Kil'jaeden but SW have much better technology. I would lean on SW favor until I see more of the deities strength.


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## Raigen (Sep 4, 2009)

Technology is ambiguous. Draenei have space travel and any number of these guys can erect magical shields across cities for protective purposes, plus the Exodar. Gnomes made a teleporter. SW doesn't have those yet. Goblins made a device that reverse-ages living things to their prime. SW doesn't have that either. SW has blaster weapons. Gnomes have mechas and gattling guns, Legion has Felreavers. Not including the Ancients and Earthen who forged robots and mecha to keep the likes of Yogg-Sarron imprisoned.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MtnK9STuOg[/YOUTUBE]


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## neodragzero (Sep 4, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Technology is ambiguous. Draenei have space travel and any number of these guys can erect magical shields across cities for protective purposes, plus the Exodar.


And this will stop a level of energy that surpasses what a star can produce in hundreds of years?


> Gnomes made a teleporter. SW doesn't have those yet.


Hooray for random tech you forgotten to give the range for.


> Goblins made a device that reverse-ages living things to their prime. SW doesn't have that either.


Read above, range and time activation would be appreciated.


> SW has blaster weapons. Gnomes have mechas and gattling guns, Legion has Felreavers. Not including the Ancients and Earthen who forged robots and mecha to keep the likes of Yogg-Sarron imprisoned.


SW has blasters in different ranges of destructive power. What mechas and gatling guns do you speak of that easily destroy planets along the lines of ridiculous overkill?


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## Raigen (Sep 4, 2009)

You can find out both by actually playing the game and running quests. And teleporter from Booty Bay to depths of Gnomeragan. Also, what's the point of a machine that puts out energy when WoW has the Well of Eternity that spews out infinite cosmic energy and spans multiple dimensions and links to thousands of worlds, all because the Titans decided to put it there. And your 'planet-destroying blaster' is the Death Star to which it took them years to construct the first one and had a time lag between firing.

It ain't gonna make one bit of difference what weapons you have if you can't manage to pull the trigger. That's what this boils down to. Their ships, machines weapons, all completely useless. They're useless against the Titans and Old Gods anyway. And what is SW gonna do when all the crews and all the men who control their weapons find themselves dead or minds broken? Any number of WoW figures can mindrape from extreme distances, and Druids like Malfurion who can go Dream Form and fuck around with all their systems and destroy them from within.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 4, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Right you can't give reason as to how SW-verse could win and claim I'm evading reality...which is impossible since this is all fictional anyway. Anything goes. Portals open up on every planet in SW-verse and endless hordes of the Burning Legion pour through and destroy everything.



Like they needed several wars with Orcs and undead just to prepare their limited forces to attack one planet with Medieval-level civilizations and lost?



> Nozdormu speed-ages everyone in the SW-verse a few million years in seconds and kills them all off.



When has he ever done this?



> Ysera mindfucks them into oblivion with the dreams/nightmares/souls of every living creature to have ever existed all at once. Malygos erases them with giant balls of pure magic.



When have they done this?



Raigen said:


> Technology is ambiguous. Draenei have space travel and any number of these guys can erect magical shields across cities for protective purposes, plus the Exodar. Gnomes made a teleporter. SW doesn't have those yet.





In fact such tech is so useless in SW it's considered nothing more than a mere parlor trick.



> Goblins made a device that reverse-ages living things to their prime. SW doesn't have that either. SW has blaster weapons. Gnomes have mechas and gattling guns, Legion has Felreavers. Not including the Ancients and Earthen who forged robots and mecha to keep the likes of Yogg-Sarron imprisoned.



Quantify this bullshit or GFTO



Raigen said:


> You can find out both by actually playing the game and running quests. And teleporter from Booty Bay to depths of Gnomeragan. Also, what's the point of a machine that puts out energy when WoW has the Well of Eternity that spews out infinite cosmic energy and spans multiple dimensions and links to thousands of worlds, all because the Titans decided to put it there.



It's a freaking pool of water that gives a bunch of elves with a medieval - level civilization negligible senescence and some pithy nature magic. Big fucking whoop.

Call me when they shatter a planet and send the fragments out at relativistic speed.



> And your 'planet-destroying blaster' is the Death Star to which it took them years to construct the first one and had a time lag between firing.



They did it in secret. The second DS was funded and contracted only by the Black Sun syndicate and they built it in 2 years.

And it would only need to fire once.



> It ain't gonna make one bit of difference what weapons you have if you can't manage to pull the trigger. That's what this boils down to. Their ships, machines weapons, all completely useless. They're useless against the Titans and Old Gods anyway. And what is SW gonna do when all the crews and all the men who control their weapons find themselves dead or minds broken? Any number of WoW figures can mindrape from extreme distances, and Druids like Malfurion who can go Dream Form and fuck around with all their systems and destroy them from within.



Fucking prove it. Why didn't he do this to the humans and orcs when he thought they were invading his lands? You're making up ridiculously exaggerated powers that have never been seen before.

Vader and Palpatine have better telepathic feats than anyone in Warcraftverse.


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## neodragzero (Sep 4, 2009)

Raigen said:


> You can find out both by actually playing the game and running quests.


I don't have time for that kind of digital crack.


> And teleporter from Booty Bay to depths of Gnomeragan. Also, what's the point of a machine that puts out energy when WoW has the Well of Eternity that spews out infinite cosmic energy and spans multiple dimensions and links to thousands of worlds, all because the Titans decided to put it there. And your 'planet-destroying blaster' is the Death Star to which it took them years to construct the first one and had a time lag between firing.


24 hours for the first Death Star on the basis of it using its full power. It's full power isn't needed to destroy a planet. The 2nd Death Star required only 3 minutes for a recharge of full power. I repeat, it creates more energy at full power than what a star can create in hundreds of years. Then we have the Sun Crusher. The Well of Eternity sounds pretty meaningless as offensive power goes. Seriously though, you really want to claim that this well is infinite? That there's no limit whatsoever and that it can't be destroyed?


> They're useless against the Titans and Old Gods anyway.


Because?


> And what is SW gonna do when all the crews and all the men who control their weapons find themselves dead or minds broken? Any number of WoW figures can mindrape from extreme distances, and Druids like Malfurion who can go Dream Form and fuck around with all their systems and destroy them from within.


Yeah, because a verse filled with Force Users including numerous Sith Lords, Jedi Masters, Luke Skywalker, a planet that uses the force and moves at lightspeed, etc. won't do anything about that.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 4, 2009)

neodragzero said:


> The Well of Eternity sounds pretty meaningless as offensive power goes. Seriously though, you really want to claim that this well is infinite? That there's no limit whatsoever and that it can't be destroyed?



Funny thing is, it was destroyed.


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## Rice Ball (Sep 4, 2009)

Sargeras is killable by 10 mortal hero's . (or will be soon).

I'm sure a group of 10 ancient Sith could loot their tier 10.5 armour from him with little effort.

@Raigen

Please can you provide your source and evidence for claims.


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## neodragzero (Sep 4, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Funny thing is, it was destroyed.



I know.


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## Jon Snow (Sep 4, 2009)

I'm just gonna say, Archimonde will rape cities like he did Dalaran


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## Gig (Sep 4, 2009)

Fenix said:


> Gig is probably too busy shouting at people to not post in fights they don't know, then doing the exact same thing himself in other threads.


What strongarm said was blatantly false most EU countries have armies in the thousands and I provided a link to prove him wrong.

And what I said was true Sargeras was injured by an Axe thrown by an Orc which no matter what you say he was injured by an Axe.

As for its mystical enchantment all it did was make it as strong as Diamond meaning  Sargeras can be harmed by materials which are weak by the standards of Star Wars 

TWF: Best feats for Titans Is that the pantheon can supposedly sanitize worlds of life and then re-terraform them. 

As for Sargeras his best destructive feat from knowledge was when Illidan used his power to cause a earthquake which shock an entire continent


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## Raigen (Sep 4, 2009)

No. You're wrong on many things. They explained how Brox's axe hurt Sargeras. It had nothing to do with sharpness or hardness. Hell, Neltharion has diamonds in his scales and it's not as hard as the adamantium plates he had put on himself. No, Sargeras was scratched by the power of Nature from the axe, which is the exact opposite of the Chaotic energies of the twisting nether to which he is infused. If the demonic energies were destruction, then Natural energy/forces would be creation. It was for only the fact the axe was empowered with Ancient Natural energies that it could even remotely affect Sargeras. Your idea that he is only diamond hard is laughable.

Also, Illidan used the Eye of Sargeras, which was nothing more than a fraction of power left behind by the Avatar he sent to be 'defeated' by Aegwynn so he could inhabit her body and possess her unborn child. And Illidan was using it to rip a continent off the world. It's been openly stated that if Sargeras himself entered the world, it'd end instantly. That's it. Period. You people are so underestimating the Titans. At least one of them is a God of Time. Nozdormu was given a fraction of power from One of the Titans, and that made him a part of Time itself. Basically, one of the Titans is the equivalent of Kronos in Marvel.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 4, 2009)

I remember it being stated that Sargeras would cause noticeable heat from 1000 miles away. Hardly planet destroying.


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## Fang (Sep 4, 2009)

That's not even equivalent to hundreds of kilotons of force.

Hell I think Jango Fett's Slave 1's mines were more powerful.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 4, 2009)

Raigen, do you understand what unquantifiable hyperbole is?

I'll give you an example:

Malygos is the "Lord of Magic."

He was beaten, *in his own pocket dimension*, by a random collection of 10/25 raiders aided, not by Alextrasza or another Aspect, but by a random collection of red drakes.

Clearly, his title was hyperbole. He was not the literal master of all magic in Azeroth, as had *previously been claimed* in the novels/quests/lore. Heck, he wasn't even the master of magic in his own dimension, given that magic users like Warlocks/Mages could still cast spells and hurt him. 

Another example: Nozdormu, the Ageless One. Supposedly, he's the master of time. You keep mentioning that he could simply age the entire SW universe 20 billion years until all their stars died out and rape the entire universe.

When has he ever done this? When has he ever aged something as an offensive tactic?

Until he actually demonstrates this ability on a wide scale, his title of "Ageless One" doesn't mean he can time-fuck entire galaxies. That would be hyperbole.

Another example: the titans supposedly "shaped" millions of worlds. Define "shaped" for me. Did they put a million Well of Eternitys on a million worlds? Or did they put a settlement like Uldaman on a barren world, and count that as having "shaped" the world? Without being able to quantify "shaped," the Titans range from a race who terraformed a galaxy, to a race that terraformed a few planets, and touched down on several million in their travels, leaving traces of themselves behind.

Half the stuff you post is either baseless assumption, like Nozdormu being able to age things into oblivion, or unquantifiable, like how the titans "shaped" millions of worlds. Provide scans that quantify Warcraft feats better, or nobody is going to take you seriously.

Oh, and don't ever say "go and find these books and read them" when someone asks you for sources. The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence, not us.


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## Fang (Sep 4, 2009)

Just curious but are Warcraft fans going by the novels or the actual game for feats and fluff?


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## Endless Mike (Sep 4, 2009)

Also, the timeframe in which the Titans did their work was never specified. For all we know, it could have taken billion of years.


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## strongarm85 (Sep 4, 2009)

TWF said:


> Just curious but are Warcraft fans going by the novels or the actual game for feats and fluff?



It wouldn't be wrong to with the actual game for feats most of the time. There is actually a pretty good amount of exposition. I haven't seen any examples of gameplay being used accept against Warcraft ie Riceball saying that Sargerias could be taken down by a group of 10 mortal warriors. That is a game mechanic.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 4, 2009)

TWF said:


> Just curious but are Warcraft fans going by the novels or the actual game for feats and fluff?



See, normally I would say ingame feats can't be used. However, it seems Blizzard intends for WoW's ingame plot-relavent events to be canon. 

As in, ingame Illidan is a boss in Burning Crusade, and he eventually dies. If any novels come out that occur in this time period and reference Illidan's fate, he will probably still be dead. 

Likewise with the Sunwell. Aveena was a character that appeared in the Sunwell Trilogy. Her fate is that she sacrafices herself in the game in order to banish Kil'jadaen. 

Then there's the comic series that references events that happen in the game.

WoW really blurs the lines between game and novel feats, which makes me believe ingame events should be taken as canon, especially when it affects major story-line characters, like the blue dragon Aspect Malygos' death.


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## Raigen (Sep 4, 2009)

All the Novels, comics and Manga are canon, and that's where I pull the bulk of my feats/arguments. Also, you can't say that others managing to harm an Aspect makes them any less powerful. Medihv is as powerful as an Aspect and during the War of the Ancients, Quel'dorei sorcerers were managing to hurt Ysera and other dragons that were attacking the Demons of the Legion towards the end in "The Sundering". Also, Malygos is the Lord of Magic. He is magic incarnate. That doesn't mean he can make you not use magic. Aside from the Well, he has the greatest magical power and lore in the world. Each of the Aspects are the greatest in each of their areas, but all are supposed to be equal in power.

Also, Warlock's derive their power from the Twisting Nether, the demonic chaotic energies. Malygos is like Pure Arcane. There still exists other forms of magic, like Nature that is used by Druids and the Demigods, as well as Ysera herself who is the Mistress of the Emerald Dream, which is her realm. Also to note, in "Night of the Dragon", it's also stated that Anveena had sacrificed herself/died and was confirmed by the blue dragon (forget his name atm. He was in the Sunwell Trilogy). The events in "Night of the Dragon" also act as a precursor to the latest WoW installment; "Cataclysm".


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## Fenix (Sep 4, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Raigen, do you understand what unquantifiable hyperbole is?
> .



The Titans are only mentioned in passing. If you want to take the things said about them literally (such as Algalon's quote posted earlier in this thread), yes they are pretty damn strong but there is very little else to go on. The "lore" so far simply have not covered them enough despite an entire raid instance based on Titan lore and a RPG book that's pretty much worthless. 

While I obviously don't agree with all the stuff Raigen posts, many of the things are at least "accurate" because that's just how they're explained by the lore team. Pitting Warcraft against high tier universes was never a great idea to begin with.  

This is basically no different than keep throwing Aizen into some XYZ world and ask if he can solo, then watch the fanboy rage on each other due to the severe lack of actual evidence and limits. 



Endless Mike said:


> I remember it being stated that Sargeras would cause noticeable heat from 1000 miles away. Hardly planet destroying.



Then you obviously remembered wrong. Why don't you go make another Touhou thread or something.


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## Raigen (Sep 4, 2009)

The worst part was that it said "Anything Goes". Which I would think means anything said about the Titans/Old Gods gets used, because as of yet there's nothing contradicting it. These guys messed with Time itself and I don't see anyone in SW capable of that. not to mention the Bronze Flight are all about Time-based magic and their dragon breath is like magic sand that alters the age of whatever it touches at the bronze dragons will, which could mean aging rapidly or de-aging or even stopping time around it altogether.

Can't say much for Ship battles since the only starship in the WoW-verse was the Exodar which was the size of a small city (or large town). Then again being in ships doesn't help much since the Blood Elves already showed they could make portals inside them and send in soldiers to wreak havoc (which is how the Exodar crashed to begin with). Plus mages, etc can create rifts and portals as well and I don't doubt that if they wanted to they could find the SW ships floating in space, link a portal to them, and start feeding armies through to take them over. Plus they've shown they can mindrape and rip information out of peoples memories, which could make them capable of learning how to operate the SW ships. It's *possible.*


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## Shoddragon (Sep 4, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> I remember it being stated that Sargeras would cause noticeable heat from 1000 miles away. Hardly planet destroying.



noticeable? like incinerating or "barely" noticeable? because current earth has hydrogen bombs that can that which isn't that impressive.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 4, 2009)

Raigen said:


> All the Novels, comics and Manga are canon, and that's where I pull the bulk of my feats/arguments. Also, you can't say that others managing to harm an Aspect makes them any less powerful. Medihv is as powerful as an Aspect and during the War of the Ancients, Quel'dorei sorcerers were managing to hurt Ysera and other dragons that were attacking the Demons of the Legion towards the end in "The Sundering". Also, Malygos is the Lord of Magic. He is magic incarnate. That doesn't mean he can make you not use magic. Aside from the Well, he has the greatest magical power and lore in the world. Each of the Aspects are the greatest in each of their areas, but all are supposed to be equal in power.
> 
> Also, Warlock's derive their power from the Twisting Nether, the demonic chaotic energies. Malygos is like Pure Arcane. There still exists other forms of magic, like Nature that is used by Druids and the Demigods, as well as Ysera herself who is the Mistress of the Emerald Dream, which is her realm. Also to note, in "Night of the Dragon", it's also stated that Anveena had sacrificed herself/died and was confirmed by the blue dragon (forget his name atm. He was in the Sunwell Trilogy). The events in "Night of the Dragon" also act as a precursor to the latest WoW installment; "Cataclysm".



If Malygos is the Lord of Magic, why do magical spells cast by Mages still harm him?

Ragnaros is the Lord of Fire, and hence fire spells do nothing against him.

It's obvious that Malygos' title is a hyperbole. He's not the complete master of all magic on Azeroth. He's simply a very powerful mage. 

The blue dragon was Kalec/Kalecgos. 



Fenix said:


> The Titans are only mentioned in passing. If you want to take the things said about them literally (such as Algalon's quote posted earlier in this thread), yes they are pretty damn strong but there is very little else to go on. The "lore" so far simply have not covered them enough despite an entire raid instance based on Titan lore and a RPG book that's pretty much worthless.
> 
> While I obviously don't agree with all the stuff Raigen posts, many of the things are at least "accurate" because that's just how they're explained by the lore team. Pitting Warcraft against high tier universes was never a great idea to begin with.
> 
> ...



It is precisely because the lore regarding the Titans and Old Ones is so thin and non-existent that I propose most of it is hyperbole.

Until we have concrete evidence of what they're capable of, we should just treat it like we treat most of the Naruto Databook: as hyperbole. 

Otherwise, we have Aizen who can solo Marvel. Afterall, the workings of his Shikai are vague and unexplained, so if we go by the "Absolute" part of "Absolute Hypnosis" then we have an unbreakable illusion hyperbole to work with.


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## Raigen (Sep 4, 2009)

Malygos is also quite insane lately. Like I said, he doesn't control how others use magic nor is he impervious to its many forms. Ragnaros is different as he's an Elemental and this immune to that element. Despite Malygos being immensely powerful, he, like all the Aspects, are still living things with physical bodies (though Ysera may be an exception to the rule).


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## Fang (Sep 4, 2009)

Since we're including all of Star Wars EU this means I'm going to recap as such on what the Expanded Universe has:

- Star Forge: powered by the Force it can create literally infinite ships, weapons, war droids, supplies, ect...
- Sun Crusher: causes stars to go supernova and wipes out entire solar systems
- Sith Corsair: a decent Dark Jedi and Sith magican like Alema could rip out the cores of nine stars and wipe out a star system not too mention it was devestating other star systems
- Death Stars: three of them, the prototype, the first and the mostly complete and operational second plus the Darksaber, the second is especially impressive since it can fire blasts every three minutes
- Shadow Mass Generator: can implode planets with its gravity fields and crush them


Force-Users: Various Force-Users from both the Sith and Jedi Orders along with other Force organizations

- Luke Skywalker: very high level telepath and illusionist; could cloak an entire planet, can teleport, Shatterpoints, can casually telekinetically destroy city sized warships like Vong heavy cruisers and Star Destroyers, manipulates matter to at least the molecular level, has TKed high powered singularties, ect...

- Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus: another high level illusionist, great with clairvoyance, has Shatterpoints, is roughly on Luke's level in speed and skill with a lightsaber, ect...

- Darth Revan/Revanchist: telepathically implanted a completely foreign language into the remants of the Rakatan civilization; soloed an entire army of Sith adepts, Dark Jedi, wardroids and Sith troopers

- Darth Nihilus: has telepathically and astrally drained entire planets full of Force-Sensitives/telepaths like Visas Marr's people, easily towed around a fleet of warships with Telekinesis, when speaking he can destroy entire planet's surfaces

- Naga Sadow: great Telekinetic power to the point he can cause large multi-kilometer solar flares, high level Sith sorcery, drained a people to continue living after death as a Force-ghost

- Darth Sidious/Palpatine: mind-fogged the memories of what is likely millions on Coruscant into forgetting about the burial of his personal Super-class Star Destroyer, the Luskanya, creates Force-Storms which can ruin the surfaces of planets, disabled and nullified the long-range Precognitive abilities and clairvoyance of the entire Jedi Order years before the events on Naboo to the time of Order 66 for decades across the entire galaxy

- Zenoma Sekot: a highly sentient FTL living planet akin to Marvel's Ego, it's perceptions are beyond that even the most knowledgable, experienced and powerful Force-Users like Luke Skywalker or Darth Sidious


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## FireEel (Sep 4, 2009)

Just putting in my 2 cents about the Malygos part.

Malygos is not the Spellweaver or Guardian of Magic in a sense that he is immune to magic spell, or that every magic in the world is wielded by him. Yes, he does play a big part in how magic goes, for example, in lore sense, he felt that the world's magic was too rampart, and that wizards and mages should not be using magic anymore. As a direct consequence, every single wizard and mage, even the strongest of them immediately became weaker. How much weaker we don't know, but enough so that they are unable to defeat enemies that they 'd supposedly be able to do so easily before.

Next, as said, Malygos has literally went insane, that at least puts a damper on his power, or at least the way he uses it.

Lastly, we do not actually kill Malygos. When we get him down to his final %, it would be Alexstrasza who deals the final blow. Two things are significant here. Malygos cries out in anger not at the raiders who took him from 100% - 1%, but at Alexstrasza, implying that she is majorly responsible for his demise. Secondly, one could argue that Malygos is unkillable by mortals, as was Archimonde(we could take him down to 1%, but any further damage is nil, it would take Malfurion's wisps to kill him finally).


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## madcow3005 (Sep 5, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Malygos is also quite insane lately. Like I said, he doesn't control how others use magic nor is he impervious to its many forms. Ragnaros is different as he's an Elemental and this immune to that element. Despite Malygos being immensely powerful, he, like all the Aspects, are still living things with physical bodies (though Ysera may be an exception to the rule).



Even if he was insane, the fact remains that an Aspect, arguably the strongest of 5 beings on Azeroth that aren't the Old Gods, was defeated by 25 randoms aided by minor red drakes. 

If we fought him aided by Alextrasza, then sure his demise would be credible. However, she only shows up after he's already dead.



FireEel said:


> Just putting in my 2 cents about the Malygos part.
> 
> Malygos is not the Spellweaver or Guardian of Magic in a sense that he is immune to magic spell, or that every magic in the world is wielded by him. Yes, he does play a big part in how magic goes, for example, in lore sense, he felt that the world's magic was too rampart, and that wizards and mages should not be using magic anymore. As a direct consequence, every single wizard and mage, even the strongest of them immediately became weaker. How much weaker we don't know, but enough so that they are unable to defeat enemies that they 'd supposedly be able to do so easily before.
> 
> ...



No, we actually do kill him all the way to 0. Alextrasza only arrives after he's dead.


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## FireEel (Sep 5, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Even if he was insane, the fact remains that an Aspect, arguably the strongest of 5 beings on Azeroth that aren't the Old Gods, was defeated by 25 randoms aided by minor red drakes.
> 
> If we fought him aided by Alextrasza, then sure his demise would be credible. However, she only shows up after he's already dead.
> 
> No, we actually do kill him all the way to 0. Alextrasza only arrives after he's dead.



We don't deal the killing blow.

Yes, we burn him down to 1%, but that final 1hp would be dealt by Alexstrasza as she entered the area.

In lore terms as well, Alexstrasza killed her brother, not a random bunch of 25 raiders.

Edit: Just checked, even wowwiki states it was Alexstrasza who finished him off at the very last part. stock)


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## madcow3005 (Sep 5, 2009)

If you've actually done the fight in WoW, you'll know that Alextrasza doesn't even appear until Malygos collapses and dies.

There is no evidence in the game that Alextrasza dealt the killing blow. No dragon-fire, no battling between the two, nothing.

If this has been retconned by Blizzard, may I have the source? If not, then going by ingame feats, the raiders defeat Malygos, and Alextrasza appears after he dies and grants you your loot chest.

EDIT: And even if it's true that Alextrasza dealt the killing blow, the fact remains that Malygos was still beaten to a pulp by a group of raiders with the aid of random red drakes. This was done in his own dimension, where he had been channeling all of the magic of Azeroth for a fairly long period of time. 

This does not bode well for the other high teirs of Warcraft. If an Aspect, the strongest of 5 beings on Azeroth below the Old Gods, is this weak, then what does this say about the verse as a whole?


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## Gelu (Sep 5, 2009)

It's a gameplay mechanics I've hoisted Ony's head up multiple times yet according to lore King Chin is the one who killed her. The 25/10 raider which killed malygos don't exist as far as lore is concerned. 

Anyway Malygos is in the same tier as the guy who just by waking up shattered 2 contitents just by waking up and a guy for whom time is a fricking play thing. I don't know enough about EU to make a decision but seriously stop with the gameplay crap.

Edit: Also Aspects are so far down the totem pole to old gods it ain't funny.


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## FireEel (Sep 5, 2009)

Gelu said:


> It's a gameplay mechanics I've hoisted Ony's head up multiple times yet according to lore King Chin is the one who killed her. The 25/10 raider which killed malygos don't exist as far as lore is concerned.
> 
> Anyway Malygos is in the same tier as the guy who just by waking up shattered 2 contitents just by waking up and a guy for whom time is a fricking play thing. I don't know enough about EU to make a decision but seriously stop with the gameplay crap.
> 
> *Edit: Also Aspects are so far down the totem pole to old gods it ain't funny.*



Gotta disagree with you on this slightly.

Alexstrasza was confident that the combined forces of the five flights was greater than the might of three Old Gods.

In fact that was precisely why Neltharion was corrupted first, because by breaking the alliance of the five, the Old Gods would remove the single greatest threat to them.


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## Fenix (Sep 5, 2009)

FireEel said:


> Gotta disagree with you on this slightly.
> 
> Alexstrasza was confident that the combined forces of the five flights was greater than the might of three Old Gods.
> .



What?

Cite source please

Also 
*Spoiler*: __ 



There are more than 3 old gods alive


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## Raigen (Sep 5, 2009)

Yeah, gonna need that source since it was evidence in War of the Ancients that all 5 Aspects wouldn't amount more than a minor nuisance to Sargeras, a Titan, barely worth his notice. Any one of the Old Gods at full strength would make Sargeras his bitch. The Old Gods aren't threatened by the Aspects. However the only threat the Aspects represent concerns the Freedom of the Old Gods, since it's the duty of the Aspects to protect the world and that includes keeping the Old Gods from awakening.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 5, 2009)

Gelu said:


> It's a gameplay mechanics I've hoisted Ony's head up multiple times yet according to lore King Chin is the one who killed her. The 25/10 raider which killed malygos don't exist as far as lore is concerned.
> 
> Anyway Malygos is in the same tier as the guy who just by waking up shattered 2 contitents just by waking up and a guy for whom time is a fricking play thing. I don't know enough about EU to make a decision but seriously stop with the gameplay crap.
> 
> Edit: Also Aspects are so far down the totem pole to old gods it ain't funny.



Source on Chin killing her? And source on Alextrasza being the one to fight and kill Malygos?


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## Fang (Sep 5, 2009)

So where is the fluff for how long it took these Titans or Old Gods or whatever creating their worlds again.


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## Raigen (Sep 5, 2009)

It's not fluff. It's stated they've formed over 100-million worlds. They're the first race to exist in the Universe near the beginning of its formation and for eons they've been forming worlds with life across the cosmos. Azeoroth is the world they spent the most time on because they wanted to make it *Perfect*. They also had to since it's where the old Gods are sealed. Time is also irrelevant to beings who can manipulate it at will.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 5, 2009)

The Old Gods came AFTER Azeroth was formed, not during its forming, and the Titans had already left. They came back later to seal the Old Gods, but by then the Curse of the Flesh had already taken a significant toll on Azeroth.

And you still haven't defined how much they "formed" or "shaped" these 100 million worlds. 

A single outpost like Uldaman on a world could count as having been "formed."


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## Raigen (Sep 5, 2009)

"Formed" as in "Created". They created planets. States so in the Sunwell Trilogy.


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## Fang (Sep 5, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> The Old Gods came AFTER Azeroth was formed, not during its forming, and the Titans had already left. They came back later to seal the Old Gods, but by then the Curse of the Flesh had already taken a significant toll on Azeroth.
> 
> And you still haven't defined how much they "formed" or "shaped" these 100 million worlds.
> 
> A single outpost like Uldaman on a world could count as having been "formed."



So there isn't a confirmed time frame for these "forming" feats?


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## Raigen (Sep 5, 2009)

So this is what you're argument is going to be? How long it took them to create a planet? Seriously, it doesn't matter. Planets to them are like silly putty to us. It's pointless and irrelevant to bring up. Frankly Nozdormu solos this. SW can't do shit against him. He can make an event not happen. Anything they try, he can make fail and change events.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 5, 2009)

They certainly did NOT create planets Raigen. Now I can tell you're just bullshitting.

Even Azeroth, their most precious planet, wasn't created by the Titans. The Titans just shaped the mountains and filled the oceans. The actual ball of rock and dirt was there already.

You make it seem as if the Titans pulled together 50 quintillion tons of rock and actually made the planetoid that would become Azeroth.

EDIT: And no, there is no confirmed time-frame for how long it took the Titans to form worlds. The existing lore on the Titans is about as fleshed out as the lore on Necrons were when WH 40k first came out. Hence, why I keep arguing that this stuff should be considered hyperbole, since we have no proof of the supposed power of the Titans.


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## Raigen (Sep 5, 2009)

A History of the World of Warcraft



> No one knows exactly how the universe began, but it is clear that the Titans--a race of powerful, metal-skinned gods from the far reaches of the cosmos--explored the newborn universe and made it their mission to bring stability to the various worlds and ensure a safe future for the beings that would follow in their footsteps.
> 
> As part of their unfathomable, far-sighted plan to create order out of chaos, the Titans shaped the worlds by raising mighty mountains, dredging out vast seas, breathing skies and raging atmospheres into being, and empowering primative races to maintain the reshaped worlds.
> 
> ...



I'm stopping here cause this story goes on for a few more pages.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 5, 2009)

> made it their mission to *bring stability to the various worlds* and ensure a safe future for the beings that would follow in their footsteps.
> 
> As part of their unfathomable, far-sighted plan to create order out of chaos, the Titans shaped the worlds by *raising mighty mountains, dredging out vast seas, breathing skies and raging atmospheres into being*, and empowering primative races to maintain the reshaped worlds.



Do you know how to read? Because raising a mountain and forming an ocean is not the same as creating a planet for nothingness.


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## FireEel (Sep 5, 2009)

Fenix said:


> What?
> 
> Cite source please
> 
> ...



It was in the War of the Ancients trilogy, in the 3rd book. Krasus had only just found out the reason why they were sent back was due to three Old Gods(for some reason, he just thought there were 3) meddling with the space/time continuance.

After he revealed this to Alexstrasza some time after the betrayal of Neltharion and the hiding of the Blue Dragonflight, she lamented sadly how in the full fury of the five flights combined, they 'd have been able to take on three Old Gods.


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## Raigen (Sep 5, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Do you know how to read? Because raising a mountain and forming an ocean is not the same as creating a planet for nothingness.



They could. They can change their sizes, and just look at the image of Sargeras. He's bigger than a planet. If they wanted to they could use planets like beach balls. you don't seem to get that. The Titans took great care in their work. One mistep on their part could destroy the world. And given they took all the land and shoved it into one super-continent shows that, fuck yeah, they can move quintillions of tons to make shit if they feel like it. They created water and atmospheres from nothing and created a pool of infinite cosmic energy. They can create planets on their own if they felt like it.

Even lower mages can make food/water and shit through magic.you think the Titans couldn't create a planet from their power if they felt like it? You're insane not to. They had no reason to since the worlds were already there and probably left there by whatever force created the Universe for them to create life on. You just don't get it. These guys screw with time and space regularly and can be larger than planets in size. And if Nozdormu can mess with time as much as he does and he only has a fraction of a single Titans power, what do you think that Titan is capable of? Same goes for the one who empowered Neltharion who recently ripped apart continents with his awakening.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 5, 2009)

Raigen said:


> They could. They can change their sizes, and just look at the image of Sargeras. He's bigger than a planet. If they wanted to they could use planets like beach balls. you don't seem to get that. The Titans took great care in their work. One mistep on their part could destroy the world. And given they took all the land and shoved it into one super-continent shows that, fuck yeah, they can move quintillions of tons to make shit if they feel like it. They created water and atmospheres from nothing and created a pool of infinite cosmic energy. They can create planets on their own if they felt like it.
> 
> Even lower mages can make food/water and shit through magic.you think the Titans couldn't create a planet from their power if they felt like it? You're insane not to. They had no reason to since the worlds were already there and probably left there by whatever force created the Universe for them to create life on. You just don't get it. These guys screw with time and space regularly and can be larger than planets in size. And if Nozdormu can mess with time as much as he does and he only has a fraction of a single Titans power, what do you think that Titan is capable of? Same goes for the one who empowered Neltharion who recently ripped apart continents with his awakening.



Lol "they could?" 

Yea, that's really sound reasoning right there. "They could have done it, so obviously they did do it!"

In the OBD, you need solid proof of feats, not extrapolation based on hyperbole and lore.

There is 0 mention of the Titans having actually pulled a planet together out of nothingness. Even lore only states that they "shaped" worlds by "raising mountains" and such. 

And wow, you have 0 idea of scale. Pushing continents around = pulling a planet together now?

You realize that continents constitute like 2% of a planet's total mass right?

That's like DBZ fanboys claiming Goku could bust the Sun because he is a planet-buster by the Freeza Arc.

EDIT: It's obvious this is just going to go in one ear and out the other for you Raigen. Nobody here is taking your Warcraft wank seriously due to lack of evidence for the Titan's feats. 

Since you just keep rehashing the same arguments over and over without providing substance to back it up, namely the power of the titans, I'll consider Star Wars as having won this debate.


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## Gnome (Sep 6, 2009)

TWF said:


> So there isn't a confirmed time frame for these "forming" feats?



Algalon, an agent of the Titans, said that he saw the Titans form and Destroy Planetary Systems in the time of a single mortal heartbeat.


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## Gorblax (Sep 6, 2009)

A heartbeat? I don't think there's anything in the SWU I know of that can top that.


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## Gnome (Sep 6, 2009)

Gorblax said:


> A heartbeat? I don't think there's anything in the SWU I know of that can top that.



the statement will probably be taken as Hyperbole, because most everything in Warcraft is and that can't be avoided. and if we don't accept warcraft hyperbole, well...Warcraft shouldn't have been used in the first place then.


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## Gorblax (Sep 6, 2009)

Best weapon I know in the SWU is Darth Nihilus. "Oh, look, a planet teeming with billions of lives. Wait, did I say billions? I meant zero."


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 6, 2009)

Death star produces a thousand times more energy than it takes to create a planet? Did I hear that right Raigen?


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## Raigen (Sep 6, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Death star produces a thousand times more energy than it takes to create a planet? Did I hear that right Raigen?



It's mostly crap. According to "wookiepedia" the ultramatter core of the Death Star has a power output equivalent to that of several stars. It sounds like a load of crap given that when the core exploded in the movies, it didn't create a blast like a super-nova or anything even remotely equivalent to it. And if it could really put out that much energy, then why was it only limited to planet-busting? It really is a lot of crap.

Not that it matters. The *Well of Eternity* still trumps it. Who cares about a spectrum of energy a thousand times a specific number when the Titans created a literal infinite source of cosmic energy that spans thousands of worlds and across multiple dimensions? That trumps any power claim about the Death Star.

Besides, someone mentioned Algalon. That guy is a freakin monster. He's just an "Agent" of the Titans and all his attacks have ridiculous names; "Cosmic Slash", "Black Hole Explosion", "Quantum Strike", "Phase Punch", "Big Bang", "Ascend to the Heavens". The last attack does around 700,000hp worth of Arcane Damage to everyone. The whole fight starts with him warping the whole room. Now obviously the names of attacks and visual effects are mostly fluff, but christ is this guy ridiculously powerful. And I used to think Ossirian the Unscarred was a bitch when you had to keep weakening him with the obelisks or else he'd power up and rape you all.


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## Fang (Sep 6, 2009)

Raigen contests the calculations that are canonical from a nuclear fucking scientist by Lucas Films. Too bad Raigen. The blast shows the power of the Death Star.

The second one is much more powerful too.

Also planets don't supernova and the superlaser doesn't work on DEM mechanics so what the fuck are you talking about.


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## Raigen (Sep 6, 2009)

It lacks feats. You claim it produces a thousand times more energy required to create a planet, and how exactly do you get that number? We have beings here who toy with time space and reality to create life across the universe because they feel like it and can create sources of *infinite* energy (you know, meaning *No Limit, Limitless, Boundless, Unfathomable*) And I don't see how a planet would have the same power or force as a star either.

And again, *none of it matters*. SW can't do shit. They never could. They failed the moment this started. They can't do a fucking thing against Time Manipulation at the hands of Nozdormu, much less anything else any of the Titans or their servants decide to do. How do you not get this simple fact?


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## Fang (Sep 6, 2009)

Every single poster here for Warcraft has stated you've been lying.

Death Star lacks feats? It produced a FTL beam of a superlaser that atomized a fucking earth size planet and sent the debris flying at relativistic speeds. A Star Destroyer has a reactor that produces as much energy as a small star.

Get over yourself.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 6, 2009)

Again Raigen, you have no feats to prove your hyperbole. 

And what do you know, my prediction in the previous post was true!



> EDIT: It's obvious this is just going to go in one ear and out the other for you Raigen. Nobody here is taking your Warcraft wank seriously due to lack of evidence for the Titan's feats.
> 
> Since you just keep rehashing the same arguments over and over without providing substance to back it up, namely the power of the titans, I'll consider Star Wars as having won this debate.



Just stop. Nobody here takes your wank seriously.


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## Zaru (Sep 6, 2009)

The well of eternity draws it's energy from the infinite cosmos so it's more like building a hydroelectric plant on a gigantic river.

We don't know how much energy they have available.


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## Fang (Sep 6, 2009)

We know that an Imperial-class Star-Destroyer produces more energy in a single hyperspace jump than a K3 civilization aka the modern Earth does in a year. So yeah, use that as a point of reference to compare a 1.6 kilometer ISD to a 900 kilometer Death Star 2.


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## Raigen (Sep 6, 2009)

Titans formed worlds. Stated multiple times in various sources. It's not wank if it's true and the same goes for the Well. Go read the novels. The very start of the match said "Anything goes". You guys want to intentionally eliminate any kind of threat to the SW-verse because it was blatantly obvious that WC-verse was so much more powerful than it that it's not funny.

Now, you say I'm lying and yet I have not seen *any of you* put in one shred of evidence that counteracts my points. Go read the Novels, Manga and comics. And only when you do will you have any kind of understanding about WoW. Cause quite frankly a lot of you are failing miserably when it comes to WoW lore. I even gave direct quotes from the Sunwell Trilogy that pertains to the Titans and the Well. Not to mention that in all depictions of the Titans it has them as larger than planets. And not just Sargeras whose sword is literally impaling a planet, but also the image of Algalon, who looks like he's a star constellation.


And once more you fail to even come up with any kind of real argument. You won't even acknowledge anything against SW that would topple them instantly. You won't even refute that Nozdormu would ruin them all. Until you can actually put something together aside from bullshit arguments concerning the Death Star which is a pointless tool to have, you might as well stop your SW wanking.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 6, 2009)

Feats of Nozdormu aging things until they die?

Feats of the Titan's world creation?

Oh, and that Algalon picture is luls. That's the room you meet him in, where there are holograms of Azeroth floating around. He is only 3-4 times larger than your character, not planet-sized. Using that picture claims you have no idea what you're talking about.

Keep leaning on that hyperbole Raigen. Until you show some actual feats, nobody is going to believe you.

EDIT: ROFL and I love how use used the names for his attacks as a basis for his power. 

I guess Sephiroth is a solar-system buster, since one of his attacks actually blows up the solar-system?

Hey, I'm going to rename my right hook the "Thousand-Year World Ending Big Bang Strike."

Must mean I can bust universes now right?


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## Raigen (Sep 6, 2009)

Nozdormu, both he and his flight, did this in War of the Ancients. Even the Bronze Dragons can reverse time by their dragon breath alone and turn back entire armies. Nozdormu is the Aspect of Time, a literal part of Time itself. This is stated and shown in multiple instances. Also, that's just an Avatar of Algalon, no different that the one Sargeras sent into the world centuries earlier for Aegwynn to 'defeat'. Go read "The Last Guardian" for that bit and Aegwynn herself also goes on about it in "Cycle of Hatred".

Now, do me a favor and answer well or concede that you lose: What can the SW-verse do against the Aspect of Time, Nozdormu?


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## madcow3005 (Sep 6, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Nozdormu, both he and his flight, did this in War of the Ancients. Even the Bronze Dragons can reverse time by their dragon breath alone and turn back entire armies. Nozdormu is the Aspect of Time, a literal part of Time itself. This is stated and shown in multiple instances. Also, that's just an Avatar of Algalon, no different that the one Sargeras sent into the world centuries earlier for Aegwynn to 'defeat'. Go read "The Last Guardian" for that bit and Aegwynn herself also goes on about it in "Cycle of Hatred".
> 
> Now, do me a favor and answer well or concede that you lose: What can the SW-verse do against the Aspect of Time, Nozdormu?



Show me feats of Nozdormu from the actual books, not you paraphrasing them.


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## Raigen (Sep 6, 2009)

I accept your concession as you disregarded the question.


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## Hellspawn28 (Sep 6, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Raigen stop wanking. I'm a WoW player and fan,



Good luck on telling him that since he thinks the Timelords from Doctor Who can't solo the WoW-verse . IIRC that Elune and Azora are the only gods, at the top of the hierarchy followed by the titans who can sunder Planets. Elune also created a physical shield around Tyrande to prevent her against powerful attacks.

I'm not a WoW master or anything but I'm going from what I have been told if it's ture.


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## Raigen (Sep 6, 2009)

True, Tyrande was protected by Elune and in War of the Ancients it completely blocked any attack Archimonde himself tried and the shield never wavered. Not even physical blows from him affected it and this is a guy who, when he went into physical battle with Melorne, the White Stag (a high demigod) created hills over 20ft high across the battlefield. Archimonde grew so frustrated by this that he lashed out at one of the demons guarding the cell and killed him instantly.


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## Gelu (Sep 7, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Source on Chin killing her?





> Leading an assault against Onyxia, both Varians engage her in battle. Weapons and magic clash with her numerous dragonkin with both sides determined to win. Onyxia casts a fear spell on Broll and tail swipes Jaina, removing them from the battle after growing agitated by their constant spellcasting.
> 
> Becoming desperate to end the fight Onyxia begins casting an enchantment she was using on Alcaz Island to kill Lo'Gosh, but Lo'Gosh's double responds by stepping in front of the blast, saying he should die because Lo'Gosh was the embodiment of the true Varian.
> 
> ...



Its from the comics which confuses things somewhat. The comics tend to be consider cannon for the most part exspecially in regards to chin, its the only place he really has any lore, but a few things are ignored due to gameplay. The big one being that Chin had won WSG but in Cat horde have pushed even further into Ashenvale. 



> And source on Alextrasza being the one to fight and kill Malygos?



What I meant is that blizzard shies away from wow char having any real influence on lore. Chin killing Onyxia is just 1 of the more obvious examples. In Cat both rag and Nefarian(the guy with his head on a spike infront of org) are both coming back even though we "Killed them". My point was is that Blizzard is far more likely to write Alex + Red Flight killed the *Lord of All Magic* than 25 randoms killed him. 

Honestly though, the only reason we get to fight Maly/Illidan/kil/etc is because it makes it a hell of alot more interesting than facing off against random mook #354. It rally shouldn't be an arguing point that 10/25 mortals can kill these guys when its obviously game mechanics.



> So there isn't a confirmed time frame for these "forming" feats?



In a heart beat :Zaru 2:15ish

stock

It isn't even that far fetched if you considered they gave the entire bronze dragon flight there control over time.

Love Alg's Voice



> Show me feats of Nozdormu from the actual books, not you paraphrasing them



Outside of WoA he hasn't done all that much. He has driven off death wing with the help of 2 other aspects but thats pretty much it. You steal feats from lower ranking bronze flight members which nets some nice skills. Things like being in multiple places/times, breath which slows time and being able to stop time.The only time I think were gonna get some new feats for him is when blizzard finally decides to flesh out the infinite dragon flight more. 

On a side note Nozdormu knows when/where/etc he is going to die and is apprantly immortal till that time. How is this dealth with in ODB?



> Also, that's just an Avatar of Algalon



99% sure Algalon was just a construct of the titans sent over to check up on Azeroth and not a titan's avatar.

And just for fun

stock


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## neodragzero (Sep 7, 2009)

Gelu said:


> On a side note Nozdormu knows when/where/etc he is going to die and is apprantly immortal till that time. How is this dealth with in ODB?


Against character with better feats in reality manipulation and so on, not much.


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## Fenix (Sep 7, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> The Old Gods came AFTER Azeroth was formed, not during its forming, and the Titans had already left. They came back later to seal the Old Gods, but by then the Curse of the Flesh had already taken a significant toll on Azeroth.



Actually this is a huge clusterfuck by Blizzard

For the longest time, its been stated that the Titans came and found the Old Gods, fought against them, banished them and began shaping the world.

Then in Halls of Stone, it became heavily implied (but not explicitly stated) that the Titans discovered the Old Gods after they had began shaping the world. 

So...either way, whatever. Everybody says it's the B-Team currently working on WoW anyway and the A-team went to work on the unannounced MMO


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## Gelu (Sep 7, 2009)

What I mean is say he had to tank a poweful attack like a planet buster would he die?


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## Fang (Sep 7, 2009)

Gelu said:


> In a heart beat :Zaru 2:15ish
> 
> Taiyou no Gravity (English)
> 
> It isn't even that far fetched if you considered they gave the entire bronze dragon flight there control over time.



This still tells us nothing and it does stand as hyperbole unless its shown directly rather than through a falliable statement of a character. 

And even if this is true, there are still civilizations that have created entire star systems and worlds in Star Wars such as the Celestials.


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## Fenix (Sep 7, 2009)

Gelu said:


> What I mean is say he had to tank a poweful attack like a planet buster would he die?



Well technically Algalon does throw "black holes", reveal the secrets of creation, and hit you with "big bang" attacks during the encounter.......


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## Gelu (Sep 7, 2009)

> Algalon is for all purposes a robot Well technically Algalon does throw "black holes", reveal the secrets of creation, and hit you with "big bang" attacks during the encounter.......



His Black holes are more like wormholes to be perfectly honest. Anyway I'm sure I've seen people argue that a Zoid's attack being named Big Bang made it a strong as one so why not here as well .



> This still tells us nothing and it does stand as hyperbole unless its shown directly rather than through a falliable statement of a character.
> 
> And even if this is true, there are still civilizations that have created entire star systems and worlds in Star Wars such as the Celestials



It really isn't all that fallible. He has the information needed to back up his statement

The information being 
1. A mortal heart's beat time. Not hard
2. How quickly the Titans destroyed a world. Seeing as how he watched them destroy millions of worlds he probably knows how long it takes.

Given that he has the information needed to make an assement the only real arguement is that he lying about something. Which given the fact he is a robot seems unlikely. 

Again i'm not here to argue EU i don't know enough about i'm just here to fix some Warcraft stuff.

Oh found something else that hints towards Alex killing Malygos

"Please, M...marry me!" "Okay. *wink*"

At the very end when he is dying he curses her rather than the raiders.


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## Nodonn (Sep 7, 2009)

So erm...
What's Star Wars going to do against a dragon with full power over time?


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## Fang (Sep 7, 2009)

Gelu said:


> It really isn't all that fallible. He has the information needed to back up his statement



Character bias, lack of awareness, ect...



> The information being
> 1. A mortal heart's beat time. Not hard



So show it rather than through hearsay.



> 2. How quickly the Titans destroyed a world. Seeing as how he watched them destroy millions of worlds he probably knows how long it takes.



Sounds like hyperbole, only a character statement to back it, nothing directly shown other than claim.

No different than Super Perfect Cell's claim to destroy the entire solar system when he fought Gohan the last time at the end of the Cell Games.



> Given that he has the information needed to make an assement the only real arguement is that he lying about something. Which given the fact he is a robot seems unlikely.



Robot or not, unless Warcraft is somehow internally connected to Isamov's Laws the general lay of the land here is to physically show a feat. Why is Goku a confirmed planet buster? Because he's stronger than weaker characters who have shown as well as claimed they could destroy worlds, ect...


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 7, 2009)

Nodonn said:


> So erm...
> What's Star Wars going to do against a dragon with full power over time?



No such dragon exist in WC3. At best Noz is a time-traveling seer with magical powers. In SW, in character, he'll travel through time to correct mistakes like when C3PO and R2D2 traveled back in time (or something. I forgot the details.) Don't assume he'll retroactively rape when we have no idea the full extent of his time powers other than they go back a few thousand years.

In b4 Raigen's bullshit saying Noz is a part of the timestream itself.


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## Gelu (Sep 7, 2009)

TWF said:


> Character bias, lack of awareness, ect...
> 
> So show it rather than through hearsay.



Ok seriously you want me to prove that he know how long a heart beat is? How about the fact he is using it as a measurement of time? If he said he saw worlds destroyed in a second would you ask me to prove he knows how long a second is? Its the same damn thing or do you really think he is going to use the term heartbeat when he has no idea how long it is.



> Sounds like hyperbole, only a character statement to back it, nothing directly shown other than claim.



He might have seen 1 world destroyed again all he needs is it to be under a heartbeat. However this isn't a character to spout hyperbole.



> Robot or not, unless Warcraft is somehow internally connected to Isamov's Laws the general lay of the land here is to physically show a feat.



His entire personaility is him talking about statistics, probabilty and how his analysis results mean the world needs to be remade. His entire character is a robot who only cares for what the numbers and facts say. Do you really think thats a robot that spouts hyperbole? You mention Character Bias when his entire character leans him towards telling the absoulete truth. 

I know you want feats but unfounatly the Titans and Gods of warcraft have barely been explored at all. If you want this to even be a debate you need let us argue based on reasonable character statements. If you don't even the titans shaping the world is thrown out since all we have is some recordings which are character fallible. In fact the best feat for Warcraft has would be the creation of the maelstrom which is till nothing compared to movie starwars let alone what I see from EU.

This is discounting the RPG books which state Elune is an actually deity. Which you would have none of. 

Out of curiosity does starwars have a deity?



> At best Noz is a time-traveling seer with magical powers.



Who can be in multiple places at once, stop/slow/speed-up time and if he is ever in a bad spot he can rewind and try again till he wins. Yada yada

And thats not the best. The best would be that he has complete mastery over time


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 7, 2009)

Raigen said:


> It's mostly crap. According to "wookiepedia" the ultramatter core of the Death Star has a power output equivalent to that of several stars. It sounds like a load of crap given that when the core exploded in the movies, it didn't create a blast like a super-nova or anything even remotely equivalent to it. And if it could really put out that much energy, then why was it only limited to planet-busting? It really is a lot of crap.


First of all, get an understanding of what "several stars" is and how much of a difference in size means in power output. Second of all, "limited to planet-busting"? You realize the difference between "planet-busting" and the next step, "star busting" is a factor of a billion? The Death Star isn't "planet busting" it's "I have the power output to destroy millions of planets, per shot." Thirdly, the explosion of the hypermatter-annihilation reactor doesn't necessarily detonate all of the fuel in it. 



> Not that it matters. The *Well of Eternity* still trumps it. Who cares about a spectrum of energy a thousand times a specific number when the Titans created a literal infinite source of cosmic energy that spans thousands of worlds and across multiple dimensions? That trumps any power claim about the Death Star.


No it doesn't. Because the Well of Eternity, despite all the hype around it, does not appear in the least to becinfinite. If it was, it couldn't have been destroyed no matter how hard one tries. And if infinite energy explodes, the universe will be trembling from it. And then it beggars the question of how beings who could create a source of infinite power (suggesting they have infinite power) could not kill the Old Gods.



> Besides, someone mentioned Algalon. That guy is a freakin monster. He's just an "Agent" of the Titans and all his attacks have ridiculous names; "Cosmic Slash", "Black Hole Explosion", "Quantum Strike", "Phase Punch", "Big Bang", "Ascend to the Heavens". The last attack does around 700,000hp worth of Arcane Damage to everyone. The whole fight starts with him warping the whole room. Now obviously the names of attacks and visual effects are mostly fluff, but christ is this guy ridiculously powerful. And I used to think Ossirian the Unscarred was a bitch when you had to keep weakening him with the obelisks or else he'd power up and rape you all.


Algalon still goes down to a standard raiding party multiple times a day. This suggest he's weak to low-energy magic and medieval weapons. Futuristic weaponry will make mince meat of him.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 7, 2009)

Gelu said:


> Who can be in multiple places at once, stop/slow/speed-up time and if he is ever in a bad spot he can rewind and try again till he wins. Yada yada
> 
> And thats not the best. The best would be that he has complete mastery over time



Big deal. He can't do anything to the Star Wars universe. Honestly what will he do? Magically timewarp several million planets out of existence? Because that's what's in the Empire and Republic, BTW.


Meanwhile Azeroth has a World Devestator shredding everything apart.


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## Gelu (Sep 7, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Big deal. He can't do anything to the Star Wars universe. Honestly what will he do? Magically timewarp several million planets out of existence? Because that's what's in the Empire and Republic, BTW.
> 
> 
> Meanwhile Azeroth has a World Devestator shredding everything apart.



Complete mastery over time would mean he just heads back and destroys the empire before its created. 

I've already said twice that i'm not arguing against EU I don't know anywhere near enough to make an informed desicion.


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## Fang (Sep 7, 2009)

Gelu said:


> Ok seriously you want me to prove that he know how long a heart beat is? How about the fact he is using it as a measurement of time? If he said he saw worlds destroyed in a second would you ask me to prove he knows how long a second is? Its the same damn thing or do you really think he is going to use the term heartbeat when he has no idea how long it is.



This isn't our problem. Its your fandom's burden to prove it with feats, rather than just EMPTY statements.



> He might have seen 1 world destroyed again all he needs is it to be under a heartbeat. However this isn't a character to spout hyperbole.



Irrevelant. Claims without evidence to support them no matter what the circumstances generally are put on the fray here, that's the format of the rules in the OBD.

Freeza is a planet-buster because he blew up a planet on panel and proved that he wasn't bluffing to Goku.

Vegeta wasn't a planet-buster in the Saiyan arc given how he was overpowered by somehow who was nowhere that level of power and prone to lying.



> *snip*



That's fine and dandy but largely ignored.



> Out of curiosity does starwars have a deity?



We have a sentient Force-Using planet that can move at FTL speeds, survive the ruination of it's home galaxy and percieve and comprehend on levels that no one else can.

And the fact that several Force-Users consider the Force itself to be omniscient. Never mind the canonical fact that the Force is the reason for at least the existence and life of several galaxies.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 7, 2009)

Gelu said:


> Complete mastery over time would mean he just heads back and destroys the empire before its created.


Yeah, how?  Is he going to fight Palpatine and kill him? That's a bag of worms that could spell doom for Noz, if Palpatine posses/mindfucks him into being a slave, like Sith lords are prone to do to big scary monsters. Now Palpatine has a servant that can travel through time. Even if the Empire isn't made, the Republic will still be there. And it has existed for, IIRC, 20,000 years. Show me Noz traveling that far back in time.

And complete mastery over time, my ass. Show him doing things on par with _the Shrike_ and I'd concede it. Feat wise, he isn't great at all.



> I've already said twice that i'm not arguing against EU I don't know anywhere near enough to make an informed desicion.



Then you're at a disadvantage here, because I know much of the EU and WC fluff. War of the Ancients trilogy, this so called master of time was captured and held prisoner. What?


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## madcow3005 (Sep 7, 2009)

Gelu said:


> Its from the comics which confuses things somewhat. The comics tend to be consider cannon for the most part exspecially in regards to chin, its the only place he really has any lore, but a few things are ignored due to gameplay. The big one being that Chin had won WSG but in Cat horde have pushed even further into Ashenvale.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for finally providing some evidence instead of inane rambling like Raigen.

Ok, if that's the case then sure, the raid bosses have their status somewhat raised. 

The "in a heartbeat" thing is still questionable. There is literally so much evidence which contradicts the Titans being this powerful. 

The Bronze dragonflight's control of time is mediocre at best. They've never shown the type of time manipulation that Raigen keeps claiming they're capable of. Otherwise, so much of history makes no sense, particularly the War of Ancients and the Demon Soul war. 

Nozdormu's knowledge of his own death can be chalked up to having foresight, can't it?

Afterall, if you know a bus is coming, you can not step in its way. Similarly, he knows all danger he will face except the one inevitable one which is unavoidable. 

Algalon was just a construct of the Titans sent to evaluate Azeroth. Raigen's just delusional in imagining that he's planet-sized, when in reality that picture he posted was just Algalon's room, which contains several scaled holograms of Azeroth.



Gelu said:


> Ok seriously you want me to prove that he know how long a heart beat is? How about the fact he is using it as a measurement of time? If he said he saw worlds destroyed in a second would you ask me to prove he knows how long a second is? Its the same damn thing or do you really think he is going to use the term heartbeat when he has no idea how long it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You hit the nail on the head: there is not enough knowledge about the Titans and Old Gods and Bronze Dragonflight to form a cohesive argument. 

And again, if Nozdormu could keep rewinding time until he won, why didn't he rewind and warn of Sargeras' invasion? Rewind and rape Deathwing with a rusty shovel before the Demon Soul is made? Rewind and stop the undead scourge, which claimed millions of lives, from happening?

Rewind and save Malygos, his *brother*, from insanity and death?

Heck, if he could keep rewinding time, why not just rewind back to when the Titans were still around, warn them of the Old Gods coming, and boom no Curse of the Flesh?

The only logical answer is that Nozdormu can't mess with time to that extent.


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## Gelu (Sep 7, 2009)

TWF said:


> This isn't our problem. Its your fandom's burden to prove it with feats, rather than just EMPTY statements.



Answer the question if he said he saw worlds destroyed in a second would you ask me to prove he knew how long a second was? You are seriously arguing that an entity which can analyised an entire planet in moments, determine its status and then decide whether the world needs to be remade doesn't know how long a heartbeat of the inhabitents, which he just analyised, of said world is? You know there is such a thing as unreasonable burden of proof. Give me a reason why he wouldn't know how long a mortal heart beat is?

Don't have time for the rest work calls.




> The Bronze dragonflight's control of time is mediocre at best. They've never shown the type of time manipulation that Raigen keeps claiming they're capable of. Otherwise, so much of history makes no sense, particularly the War of Ancients and the Demon Soul war.
> 
> Nozdormu's knowledge of his own death can be chalked up to having foresight, can't it?



Just a quickie

Bronze are held by pretty strict rules messing with the timeflow too much would mean the end of world (of warcraft). 

Twice so far we have helped do evil thing to help keep the timeline intact.


> The only logical answer is that Nozdormu can't mess with time to that extent.



However the fight takes place on neutral ground where the world/s getting destroyed don't mean all that much the dragon flight.

 Still don't think they win with that giant force planet thing around.


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## FireEel (Sep 7, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> And again, if Nozdormu could keep rewinding time until he won, why didn't he rewind and warn of Sargeras' invasion? Rewind and rape Deathwing with a rusty shovel before the Demon Soul is made? Rewind and stop the undead scourge, which claimed millions of lives, from happening?
> 
> Rewind and save Malygos, his *brother*, from insanity and death?
> 
> ...



He is not supposed to meddle with things that has not happened.

For example, a race of time-traveling terrorist-like dragons travel back to the coming of the Horde in Warcraft 1 to kill Medivh. Now, Medivh dying would mean the timeline being wrong, because all the Bronze Dragons and especially Nozdormu can see what 'the original and true un-altered timeline looks like'. Their role is to ensure that the time stays that way, because in warcraft, there are plenty of things capable of altering the timeline.

Therefore, players are sent back in time to defend Medivh and prevent him from getting killed. In short, what we helped the dragons do was to maintain the time, even though the Horde not coming into Azeroth would mean the orcs not destroying Stormwind, the Lich King not being created, and *perhaps the saving of millions of lives, but that would be going against the original timeline.*

Similarly, the Infinite Dragons attempt to kill off Arthas before he became the Lich King, saving the lives of many. However, once again the Bronze protect Arthas, allowing him to go down a path of corruption.


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 7, 2009)

Fenix said:


> Then you obviously remembered wrong. Why don't you go make another Touhou thread or something.







			
				WoWWiki said:
			
		

> Body Flames (Sargeras? flesh burns with demonic energy, scorching everything in his path. Sargeras?s body flames slowly increase the ambient temperature by up to 50 degrees in every direction for 1,000 miles. The effect on natural climates can be devastating.)S&L 123-124





FireEel said:


> Just putting in my 2 cents about the Malygos part.
> 
> Malygos is not the Spellweaver or Guardian of Magic in a sense that he is immune to magic spell, or that every magic in the world is wielded by him. Yes, he does play a big part in how magic goes, for example, in lore sense, he felt that the world's magic was too rampart, and that wizards and mages should not be using magic anymore. As a direct consequence, every single wizard and mage, even the strongest of them immediately became weaker. How much weaker we don't know, but enough so that they are unable to defeat enemies that they 'd supposedly be able to do so easily before.
> 
> ...



Isn't that due to plot? After all, that's the way Archimonde originally died, and you're supposed to restore the timeline, not change it. It is possible to kill Archimonde in the final mission of WC3 before the mission ends (I know, I've done it)



madcow3005 said:


> And wow, you have 0 idea of scale. Pushing continents around = pulling a planet together now?
> 
> You realize that continents constitute like 2% of a planet's total mass right?



Also note how it says they took such a long time to form the original Kalimdor. That kind of disproves that "planetary systems in a heartbeat" crap.



Raigen said:


> It's mostly crap. According to "wookiepedia" the ultramatter core of the Death Star



Hypermatter.



> has a power output equivalent to that of several stars. It sounds like a load of crap given that when the core exploded in the movies, it didn't create a blast like a super-nova or anything even remotely equivalent to it.



If you destroy a nuclear power plant it won't explode like an atomic bomb 



> And if it could really put out that much energy, then why was it only limited to planet-busting? It really is a lot of crap.



Because the calculated power output was 1e38j, destroying the sun would require around the order of 1e41j.

Learn2Physics plzkthx



> Not that it matters. The *Well of Eternity* still trumps it. Who cares about a spectrum of energy a thousand times a specific number when the Titans created a literal infinite source of cosmic energy that spans thousands of worlds and across multiple dimensions? That trumps any power claim about the Death Star.



Except it has not shown anything like that kind of power, ever.



> Besides, someone mentioned Algalon. That guy is a freakin monster. He's just an "Agent" of the Titans and all his attacks have ridiculous names; "Cosmic Slash", "Black Hole Explosion", "Quantum Strike", "Phase Punch", "Big Bang", "Ascend to the Heavens". The last attack does around 700,000hp worth of Arcane Damage to everyone. The whole fight starts with him warping the whole room. Now obviously the names of attacks and visual effects are mostly fluff, but christ is this guy ridiculously powerful. And I used to think Ossirian the Unscarred was a bitch when you had to keep weakening him with the obelisks or else he'd power up and rape you all.



Yet he still gets beaten by raiding parties.



Raigen said:


> It lacks feats. You claim it produces a thousand times more energy required to create a planet, and how exactly do you get that number?



By calculating the rate of expansion of the debris.

Link removed



Raigen said:


> . Not to mention that in all depictions of the Titans it has them as larger than planets. And not just Sargeras whose sword is literally impaling a planet



I guess the Hulk is larger than a planet, too.







> And once more you fail to even come up with any kind of real argument. You won't even acknowledge anything against SW that would topple them instantly. You won't even refute that Nozdormu would ruin them all. Until you can actually put something together aside from bullshit arguments concerning the Death Star which is a pointless tool to have, you might as well stop your SW wanking.



Prove Nozdormu can affect things larger than ground armies. Prove he can affect things on an interplanetary scale. Prove he can track and affect spaceships moving at relativistic or FTL speeds.



Raigen said:


> True, Tyrande was protected by Elune and in War of the Ancients it completely blocked any attack Archimonde himself tried and the shield never wavered. Not even physical blows from him affected it and this is a guy who, when he went into physical battle with Melorne, the White Stag (a high demigod) created hills over 20ft high across the battlefield. Archimonde grew so frustrated by this that he lashed out at one of the demons guarding the cell and killed him instantly.



Wow, 20 ft. high. That's so amazing.

SW wins.


----------



## Fenix (Sep 7, 2009)

FireEel said:


> He is not supposed to meddle with things that has not happened.
> 
> For example, a race of time-traveling terrorist-like dragons travel back to the coming of the Horde in Warcraft 1 to kill Medivh. Now, Medivh dying would mean the timeline being wrong, because all the Bronze Dragons and especially Nozdormu can see what 'the original and true un-altered timeline looks like'. Their role is to ensure that the time stays that way, because in warcraft, there are plenty of things capable of altering the timeline.
> 
> ...



The speculation flying around is that Nozdormu is actually in charge of the Infinite Dragonflight and the Infinite Dragons themselves are just transformed Bronze Dragons. Hyjal and Dragonblight both kind support that theory




> Source: Shadows & Light





> A Warcraft RPG Source book





Regardless, the way you posted made it seem like that's his greatest accomplishment, which is...actually come to think of it, he has no detailed feats anyway other than vague descriptions of his conquests 



> Isn't that due to plot? After all, that's the way Archimonde originally died, and you're supposed to restore the timeline, not change it. It is possible to kill Archimonde in the final mission of WC3 before the mission ends (I know, I've done it)



And it's due to gameplay mechanics that you can harm him in the first place in the raid. 

As for WC3, he has Divine Armor in the last mission. You probably used a cheat code. Or maybe Divine Armor got patched later on for multiplayer balancing reasons. He was not killable at all when I first got the game during the first week.  



> Also note how it says they took such a long time to form the original Kalimdor. That kind of disproves that "planetary systems in a heartbeat" crap.



Pretty sure building stuff and imbuing life into them takes a little more care than burning something down. 



> Yet he still gets beaten by raiding parties.



Such is the fate of every game. Are the players too strong or are the bosses too weak? It only depends on what you want to wank, shrug


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 7, 2009)

Fenix said:


> Such is the fate of every game. Are the players too strong or are the bosses too weak? It only depends on what you want to wank, shrug


It doesn't matter how you cut it, really. They're expected to go down to magical knights and bows and arrows and primitive buckshot rifles. All you can do is wank the weapons to make it seem better. However I can't recall any feats with weapons that make the gods appear as gods.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 7, 2009)

Fenix said:


> As for WC3, he has Divine Armor in the last mission. You probably used a cheat code. Or maybe Divine Armor got patched later on for multiplayer balancing reasons. He was not killable at all when I first got the game during the first week.



Divine armor can be overcome with conventional damage if you get in a lot of hits in a small period of time. I've also beaten Cenarius without getting the Mannoroth blood upgrade. It's tough, but possible.  



> Pretty sure building stuff and imbuing life into them takes a little more care than burning something down.



Algolon mentioned both destroying and creating.


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## Raigen (Sep 7, 2009)

The Titans really are just a rip of Marvel Celestials. The Celestials went about creating life too. It's what they did on Earth. They mowed things around, experimented, and before leaving created the Eternals to watch over the planet and fight the Deviants, much in the same way the Titans formed Azeroth, created life on the planet, and empowered the Aspects to watch over the world. It's also the Celestial's duty to reset life when a specific event occurs. Hell, Tiamut was going to reset time in that whole sector to billions of years in the passed because Makkari was killed. Algalon is meant to inform the Titans of any ongoings and call them back to cleanse the planet and then start all over again.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 7, 2009)

Titans are not the Celestials. You've been here how long Raigen? You know that argument won't work.


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## Raigen (Sep 7, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Titans are not the Celestials. You've been here how long Raigen? You know that argument won't work.



You're obviously not listening. I said the Titans are a ripoff of the Celestials, not that they are the Celestials. If they were, this'd be Marvel-verse, not Blizzard-verse.


----------



## Glued (Sep 7, 2009)

Give Blizzard some cred, the Titans for the most part are a rip off of Greek and Norse Mythology. The Titans are Vanir and Aesir like the Norse Gods.

In Greek mythos the Gods chained the Titans
In Warcraft the Titans chained the Gods.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 8, 2009)

FireEel said:


> He is not supposed to meddle with things that has not happened.
> 
> For example, a race of time-traveling terrorist-like dragons travel back to the coming of the Horde in Warcraft 1 to kill Medivh. Now, Medivh dying would mean the timeline being wrong, because all the Bronze Dragons and especially Nozdormu can see what 'the original and true un-altered timeline looks like'. Their role is to ensure that the time stays that way, because in warcraft, there are plenty of things capable of altering the timeline.
> 
> ...



So, Nozdormu can NOT mess with time as he chooses. That means he can't use time as a weapon in battle. Which means he's basically a non-factor.

See, it doesn't really matter which way you try to reason around it.

If the reason he doesn't mess with time is because he's not powerful enough, then SW doesn't need to worry about galactic time-warping from Nozdormu.

If the reason he doesn't mess with time is because you're not supposed to mess with the time line, then SW doesn't need to worry about galactic time-warping from Nozdormu.

Again, just because there is very little lore and feats from the Titans/Old Gods/Nozdormu doesn't mean you can simply take hyperbole and extrapolate from that.

"Hmm lets see, Nozdormu is the Ageless One and Lord of Time. Therefore he can warp an entire galaxy 10 billion years into the future."

"Hmm, it says the Titans created millions of worlds. Therefore, even though Sargeras can't land on a planet he created without a mortal bitch opening a door for him, the Titans are all-powerful galaxy-creators and can snap their fingers and blow up universes."

Warcraftverse's high tiers have no feats. SW wins.

Remake this thread in another 5 years when the expansion after Cataclysm comes out, and we can debate again when there's more lore.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 8, 2009)

Raigen said:


> You're obviously not listening. I said the Titans are a ripoff of the Celestials, not that they are the Celestials. If they were, this'd be Marvel-verse, not Blizzard-verse.



I'm listening just fine. Your post was pointless and a half ass comparison. Next thing I know, you're going to post shit the Black Celestial has done as evidence.


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## FireEel (Sep 8, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> So, Nozdormu can NOT mess with time as he chooses. That means he can't use time as a weapon in battle. Which means he's basically a non-factor.
> 
> See, it doesn't really matter which way you try to reason around it.
> 
> ...



Clearly you are just ignoring anything I say.

I said Nozdormu is *not supposed to *meddle with things that has not happened.

Or maybe it's too complex for you to understand, so I will just simplify it for you.

In year 13,912,012 character A was slain by monster B.

In year 11,123,123 character D builds an empire.

In year 1,231,112 wizard C dies of natural causes.

That is the original timeline as Nozdormu sees.

However, for some screwed-up reason, maybe someone manipulating time, character A killed monster B instead. Wizard C didn't die, and instead lived to a ripe old age of 100 years old. Character D meanwhile mysteriously dies and the empire is not built.

Nozdormu, seeing this strange warped timeline, then travels first to year 13,912,012 again to personally ensure monster B does kill off character A, and if something goes wrong, *he himself will kill off character A, then warp the memories of everyone to make them think character A did die to monster B, and doesn't remember shit about Nozdormu himself.*

He then travels to year 11,123,123 to save character D, and maybe even build up his empire for him, meanwhile altering everyone's memory to suit the "original timeline".

Lastly he travels to year 1,231,112 to see that Wizard C dies, even if he must kill off that Wizard himself.

In simple terms, Nozdormu is very much capable of screwing things up through time indeed, and he does so* to keep the world in the original time as he sees*.


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## neodragzero (Sep 8, 2009)

FireEel said:


> Clearly you are just ignoring anything I say.
> 
> I said Nozdormu is *not supposed to *meddle with things that has not happened.
> 
> ...



You do realize this is all pointless unless he has actually do anything of that level. As in doing any such thing without it being some heavy plot point buggery.


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## Zaru (Sep 8, 2009)

More like, does warcraftverse getting owned count as the original timeline or not?


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## Raigen (Sep 8, 2009)

Go read the first few chapters of "The Well of Eternity". Nozdormu is literally holding Time itself together. SW-verse can't win and never could've. Nozdormu alone rapes SW-verse by screwing around with time. Anything above him is just severe overkill. No one can give a proper answer for SW overcoming Nozdormu, because they simply can't. They can't screw with time or manipulate it in any fashion.

There's no doubt that if you made the battle *specific*, like; "No deities or equivalent powers", then WoW would lose since they got nothin that'd keep even one Star Destroyer from just bombarding the planet from orbit. But since it's the *whole* WoW-verse and *anything goes*, then WoW has being of such might that just one of them could rape the whole SW-verse.


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## Commander Shepard (Sep 8, 2009)

Ok, Raigen, let me put it this way.

A steel framework "holds together" a skyscraper.  However, can that framework be used to move people from oneplace to another in the skyscraper?  No, they need to do it themselves.  Nozdormu "holding time together" doesn't mean he can move people through time, accelerate their aging, or whatever.

Ultimately, Nozdormu's description as lord of time and whatever means little.  It's just a title.  Feats, or GTFO.


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## Raigen (Sep 8, 2009)

You have feats, you refuse to acknowledge them. Old Gods screwed with time, it was ripping apart. Nozdormu held it together, it created an anomaly that moved like a vortex and randomly affected the time of whatever it touched; aging/deaging and sucking in and passing through solid stone like it wasn't there. Nozdormu smacked Deathwing with an attack that made him feel months of hunger and exhaustion in an instant in "Day of the Dragon" when the full powers of the Aspects were returned. Alexstrasza made him suffer a mother's agony, in that he felt all of the emotional pain she did as her children were born, bred, tortured, and made into mounts for the Horde and died by the score for years along the pain she suffered while being forced to breed them as war mounts and being unable to stop it because of the _Demon Soul_ preventing her from fighting back. The suffering she inflicted on Deathwing was so profound that it even startled Nozdormu when Deathwing cried out in agony from it.

Nozdormu's whole flight uses time magic. Even when appearing to stand still, they instantly appear somewhere else as though moving through time.



> With Tyranastrasz in the lead, the pair wended their way into the lair of the red flight. Korialstrasz could not help but eye the other dragons as they passed among them. The greens were mere flittering shadows, gone before one realized they were even there, and made more disconcerting by the fact that they ever kept their eyes closed, as if sleepwalking. The bronze figures of Nozdormu's flight seemed not to move at all, but somehow were elsewhere whenever he blinked. As for the blues, they appeared here and there, everywhere in almost random fashion, darting through the use of magic as much as physical movement. The more Korialstrasz saw of them, the more he welcomed the stable, solid presence of his own kind.



This is a direct quote from "The Demon Soul" part 2 of the War of the Ancients Trilogy, page 64.


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## Fenix (Sep 8, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Divine armor can be overcome with conventional damage if you get in a lot of hits in a small period of time. I've also beaten Cenarius without getting the Mannoroth blood upgrade. It's tough, but possible.



News to me to be honest, but I have zero motivation to test it out so I'll take your word for it



> Algolon mentioned both destroying and creating.



To me that seemed like just destroying and forming the planets themselves. Actually shaping the continents, making them habitable and seeding life is the real time consuming process. Nevertheless, all speculations in the end



Manw? S?limo said:


> Ok, Raigen, let me put it this way.
> 
> A steel framework "holds together" a skyscraper.  However, can that framework be used to move people from oneplace to another in the skyscraper?  No, they need to do it themselves.  Nozdormu "holding time together" doesn't mean he can move people through time, accelerate their aging, or whatever.



What the crap? Please do not attempt any creative writing in the future.  



> Ultimately, Nozdormu's description as lord of time and whatever means little.  It's just a title.  Feats, or GTFO.



Actually, after the events of War of the Ancients trilogy was over and the Old Gods' influence on time was over, Nozdormu sent Krasus and Ronin back to their proper time. So yes not only does he exist in every instant of time (stated many times and shown when Krasus was thrown back in time), he can indeed send people through time. 

Even Chromie, a lieutenant in the Flight, can give artifacts to adventurers that mess with time. 

If you really want to get detailed, there are tons of stupid time paradox crap in quests, that go as far back as the Plaguelands in the old world.


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## Fang (Sep 8, 2009)

What if this was just EU Luke in Warcraft...?


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## Raigen (Sep 8, 2009)

TWF said:


> What if this was just EU Luke in Warcraft...?



He could still do nothing about the Aspects or powerful magi. And as long as he couldn't leave the planet, dropping the Moon on Azeroth in the Force would be outta the question. Especially if Elune decided she didn't like that idea. Outside of that he could probably Force Throw entire armies everywhere, but mental assaults would be a bitch for him to counter as would magic. I don't think he has any kind of defense against spells and magic that make his flesh melt from his bones in seconds.


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## Fang (Sep 8, 2009)

Not paying attention to anything YOU say.


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## Raigen (Sep 8, 2009)

TWF said:


> Not paying attention to anything YOU say.



Then what's the point of even asking a question if you're going to ignore one of the largest sources of WoW lore on here? Kinda pointless and a waste of time.


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## Crimson King (Sep 8, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Then what's the point of even asking a question if you're going to ignore one of the *largest sources of WoW lore on here*? Kinda pointless and a waste of time.



      

Luke would do alright against most things. The fodder aren't touching him, he's more powerful than alot of the heroes. You'll probably need the Lich King or Archimonde just to tie with him.


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## Raigen (Sep 8, 2009)

Eredar warlocks can melt the skin from his bones. You haven't proven otherwise. Like I said, he could toss armies. But magic users are another story altogether. Thrall can make earthquakes and tidal waves. Jaina can port entire forests and hundreds of Thunderlizards across miles. Numerous mages and even Aegwynn when she was 12yrs old could transmute matter. More skilled magi like Aegwynn and even Kael'thas can rip demons and such apart with hand gestures.


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## Gnome (Sep 8, 2009)

the Lich King is not that great amongst the WoWverse though

Edit: Didn't Kaelthas almost kill Arthas?


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## Crimson King (Sep 8, 2009)

Gnome on Fire said:


> the Lich King is not that great amongst the WoWverse though



And Luke is not the greatest amongst Starwarsverse.


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## Fang (Sep 8, 2009)

Luke is probably one of the highest tiers. Considering the old Darth Vader vs Lich King thread, Luke would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay above that.


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## Raigen (Sep 8, 2009)

Gnome on Fire said:


> the Lich King is not that great amongst the WoWverse though



If it came to a sword fight with the Lich King, I don't see a lightsaber beating Frostmourne. Arthas is pretty quick, enough to keep up with Illidan. It'd be a fun fight to see actually and unless Luke can get a kill shot, Arthas will just regenerate.


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## Gnome (Sep 8, 2009)

The frostmourne soul sucks people on contact, no?


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## Crimson King (Sep 8, 2009)

TWF said:


> Luke is probably one of the highest tiers. Considering the old Darth Vader vs Lich King thread, Luke would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay above that.



Well, I was also including machines. Such as Death Star blasting the planet


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## Fang (Sep 8, 2009)

Luke can survive as a Force-Ghost.

And unless the Lich King can come back from spare molecules, Luke TK's him apart or throws him into space.


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## Raigen (Sep 8, 2009)

Gnome on Fire said:


> The frostmourne soul sucks people on contact, no?



Think it'd have to be a fatal hit. Besides, some have shown resistance. Illidan wasn't soul-ripped by it and he's stronger than a Dreadlord and a Pitlord. I don't see Luke defending against it though. So long as he's not hit, then it's not a problem. Course Luke still has Force ability and Lich King has magic and spells and other forces. Arthas also has teleporting spells.


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## Shadow Archon (Sep 8, 2009)

Is this excluding omni-potent beings? I believe God was mentioned in Warcraft 1.


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## Raigen (Sep 8, 2009)

Shadow Archon said:


> Is this excluding omni-potent beings? I believe God was mentioned in Warcraft 1.



That was retconned to "The Light" which is more like an abstract force. The Naaru are servants of "The Light" which could be deferred to as "God" but has not really been proven nor made out to be omnipotent.


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## Shadow Archon (Sep 8, 2009)

Oh. I haven't kept up with the retcons of Warcraft, mostly I just worry about Starcraft.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 8, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Go read the first few chapters of "The Well of Eternity". Nozdormu is literally holding Time itself together.


Bullshit. I own the WotA trilogy, and no he isn't. In fact, he used all his power just to send back three people. So enough lies.



> SW-verse can't win and never could've. Nozdormu alone rapes SW-verse by screwing around with time. Anything above him is just severe overkill. No one can give a proper answer for SW overcoming Nozdormu, because they simply can't. They can't screw with time or manipulate it in any fashion.


Nozdormu can't do shit to SW. He can only time manipulate a few thousand years in the past, and the Republic is far older than that. And to do anything, he has to physically manifest himself to do it.



> There's no doubt that if you made the battle *specific*, like; "No deities or equivalent powers", then WoW would lose since they got nothin that'd keep even one Star Destroyer from just bombarding the planet from orbit. But since it's the *whole* WoW-verse and *anything goes*, then WoW has being of such might that just one of them could rape the whole SW-verse.



Like who? Your only credible argument is going to a time manipulator, with little hype and a shit show that half of what you're saying is based on extrapolations.


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## Shadow Archon (Sep 8, 2009)

How does Warcraft, in any way, have a chance?


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## Fang (Sep 8, 2009)

Luke, Jacen and Ben can all Flow-Walk along with the Aing-Ti Monks.


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## Fenix (Sep 8, 2009)

EU Luke? Well I don't think he's going to end all life forms in all the countless Warcraft worlds since that's pretty much impossible, but if he just wants to be the king of Azeroth, I don't think anybody truly strong will care enough to try to stop him.



ScreenXSurfer said:


> Bullshit. I own the WotA trilogy, and no he isn't. In fact, he used all his power just to send back three people. So enough lies.
> 
> 
> Nozdormu can't do shit to SW. He can only time manipulate a few thousand years in the past, and the Republic is far older than that. And to do anything, he has to physically manifest himself to do it.
> ...



You know you're posting more crap than Raigen right. 

The Old Gods were messing with the time in some unspecific way, and Nozdormu had to summon all instances of himself to hold it together. That was why he had to strain himself just to send Krasus and friends back

As for how "long" he can affect time, well you don't know and neither do we. I don't believe there was a specific time given from his birth to war of the ancients (do correct me if i'm wrong though) and since there are literally countless copies of himself that also exists in future, there is no evidence that he can "only" affect a few thousand years. I don't even know why you think he has to physically appear on the scene to do anything, considering that was never hinted to be a problem for him and even if it comes to that, he can still just give those hourglasses to people to pseudo time travel


----------



## Commander Shepard (Sep 8, 2009)

Raigen said:


> You have feats, you refuse to acknowledge them. Old Gods screwed with time, it was ripping apart. Nozdormu held it together, it created an anomaly that moved like a vortex and randomly affected the time of whatever it touched; aging/deaging and sucking in and passing through solid stone like it wasn't there. Nozdormu smacked Deathwing with an attack that made him feel months of hunger and exhaustion in an instant in "Day of the Dragon" when the full powers of the Aspects were returned. Alexstrasza made him suffer a mother's agony, in that he felt all of the emotional pain she did as her children were born, bred, tortured, and made into mounts for the Horde and died by the score for years along the pain she suffered while being forced to breed them as war mounts and being unable to stop it because of the _Demon Soul_ preventing her from fighting back. The suffering she inflicted on Deathwing was so profound that it even startled Nozdormu when Deathwing cried out in agony from it.
> 
> Nozdormu's whole flight uses time magic. Even when appearing to stand still, they instantly appear somewhere else as though moving through time.
> 
> ...



_That's_ more like it.  I had read the entirety of the thread and you hadn't expounded on Nozdormu's feats like here.

So he makes a "vortex".  A possible problem here is:  how fast is the vortex?  Can it tag an ultra-fast Jedi like EU Luke?  Secondly, how big is it?  Is it large enough to consume a star destroyer?

Also, what's preventing Jedi like Kreia or Nihilus from insta-killing Nozdormu whenever he _does_ appear?  Does he have any durability or resistance feats?


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## Fenix (Sep 8, 2009)

How about the fact that he doesn't need to appear

Durrr


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## Fang (Sep 8, 2009)

There are plenty of people who can use the Force to kill someone via soul and mind-fuckery.


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## Fenix (Sep 8, 2009)

Soul draining and mindfuck aren't rare in Warcraft either, but a lot of them are also glass cannons that can't take what they dish out. 

Also people don't even stay dead, Medivh died and just lolcameback anyway. Plenty of characters and beings live on in various spirit forms and can still interact with the world, some can flat out resurrect themselves like the Green Dragonshrine's bird guardian. Call it inconsisentcy or simply WOW THIS STORY HAS EVERYTHING xD


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## NarutoWinsByDefault (Sep 8, 2009)

I just got hit for 14k + by a lock, Warcraftverse wins...


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## Fang (Sep 8, 2009)

Fenix said:


> Soul draining and mindfuck aren't rare in Warcraft either, but a lot of them are also glass cannons that can't take what they dish out.
> 
> Also people don't even stay dead, Medivh died and just lolcameback anyway. Plenty of characters and beings live on in various spirit forms and can still interact with the world, some can flat out resurrect themselves like the Green Dragonshrine's bird guardian. Call it inconsisentcy or simply WOW THIS STORY HAS EVERYTHING xD



Or maybe the game's canon is unclear when it comes to that or lol game mechanics.


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## Shadow Archon (Sep 8, 2009)

Medivh was resurected by his mother........


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## madcow3005 (Sep 8, 2009)

FireEel said:


> Clearly you are just ignoring anything I say.
> 
> I said Nozdormu is *not supposed to *meddle with things that has not happened.
> 
> ...



So in order for Nozdormu to mess with the timeline, something has to go wrong with it first. He's only allowed to intervene to set things right.

Ok, so prove that Star Wars winning the battle is "wrong" in the timeline. Otherwise, Nozdormu wouldn't interfere in the battle. 



Fenix said:


> News to me to be honest, but I have zero motivation to test it out so I'll take your word for it
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It was never a question of whether he can send people through time. It's a question of whether he can use time distortion as a weapon.

As in, age people 1000 years into dust. Age the Star Wars galaxy 10 billion years until all their stars have died out. 

He has never shown time distortion on such a scale. Nevermind the fact that he isn't supposed to affect the timeline unless something is wrong with it in the first place.



Gnome on Fire said:


> the Lich King is not that great amongst the WoWverse though
> 
> Edit: Didn't Kaelthas almost kill Arthas?



The Lich King is the current most powerful entity on Azeroth that isn't sealed. 



Shadow Archon said:


> Medivh was resurected by his mother........



Yea, he doesn't just randomly come back. Aegwin sacrifices the last of her powers as a former Guardian of Trisfal to bring him back.


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## Fenix (Sep 8, 2009)

Yeah with the aid of the last bit of her magic stored wherever...

His spirit was already in tact anyway and was never gone in the world. Even your average Orcs live on in spirit form, kind of stupid


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 8, 2009)

Fenix said:


> You know you're posting more crap than Raigen right.
> 
> The Old Gods were messing with the time in some unspecific way, and Nozdormu had to summon all instances of himself to hold it together. That was why he had to strain himself just to send Krasus and friends back


I'd like a citation for "all instances of himself" part. As for what happened, as I remember it, the Old Gods were fiddling with time through Nozdormu as Nozdormu was pretty much held captive against his will, with Krasus' stating specifically what was happening with Nozdormu where I don't really accept his words on what happened. I don't believe Krasus has the proper knowledge to know what holding together reality would be like. 

Back to point one, you say he summoned all instances of himself to hold it together? Then tell me, how do people in WotA know who Nozdormu is? If every instance from the moment of his birth for the rest of his existence is battling with the Old Gods, then nobody should know who or what Nozdormu does. He never existed. He'd have been battling with the Old Gods since the moment he gained thought.



> I don't even know why you think he has to physically appear on the scene to do anything, considering that was never hinted to be a problem for him and even if it comes to that, he can still just give those hourglasses to people to pseudo time travel



Everybody has to interact with the past in order to change history. Just because it was never a problem for him before, shaping a galaxy is an outside context problem when compared to Azeroth. And it's arguable he'd even affect time in the SW universe.


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## Shadow Archon (Sep 8, 2009)

There is a theory that Nozdormu is leading the infinity dragons, trying to change time so that the world is a better place. If you killed Medivh before you opened the portal, the war with the Horde and the Alliance would have not occured. But thats only a theory.

I don't think Warcraft can win this, even with Nozdormu. Star Wars wins in my opinion.


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## Fenix (Sep 8, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> I'd like a citation for "all instances of himself" part. As for what happened, as I remember it, the Old Gods were fiddling with time through Nozdormu as Nozdormu was pretty much held captive against his will, with Krasus' stating specifically what was happening with Nozdormu where I don't really accept his words on what happened. I don't believe Krasus has the proper knowledge to know what holding together reality would be like. And you say he summoned all instances of himself to hold it together? Then tell me, how do people in WotA know who Nozdormu is? If every instance from the moment of his birth for the rest of his existence is battling with the Old Gods, then nobody should know who or what Nozdormu does. He never existed. He'd have been battling with the Old Gods since the moment he gained thought.



Er because it's in the book? 

You're right about the problem with summoning all of his copies though, but shit it's not like I'm Kanaak's weed man, how would I know what he was smoking when he was writing that. 

Or maybe after that was over, the copies went back to their normal time....I don't know, time paradox is stupid



> Everybody has to interact with the past in order to change history. Just because it was never a problem for him before, shaping a galaxy is an outside context problem when compared to Azeroth.



I never claimed he can snap his finger and warp everybody to old age, but screwing with time to fuck up the present never needs to be done on such a scale anyway.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 8, 2009)

Fenix said:


> Er because it's in the book?


Which part of my post is this a response to? I had a big wall of text there which I fixed later.



> I never claimed he can snap his finger and warp everybody to old age, but screwing with time to fuck up the present never needs to be done on such a scale anyway.



Everybody makes it sound that way. And to get rid of the republic, or Star Wars military forces across the spectrum, it will require more than stepping on butterflies here.


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## Shadow Archon (Sep 8, 2009)

Nozdormu might not even involve himself here. If SW invading Azeroth has a positive affect on time, he might just not care. Those who survive the SW onslaught will be brought into a new society with many benefits for them.


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## Raigen (Sep 8, 2009)

It's a misconception that Nozdormu brings all his incarnations together. It's not what he does. He draws power from all of his incarnations through time, as they are all connected, infinite numbers and still one being. Basically all his past, present and future forms send power to the incarnation of himself that needs it, which is what happened in War of the Ancients. He also later told Krasus "All roads to the future are cut off....save one." after Krasus suffered an attack from Neltharion that keeps him from speaking about the Earth Warder in any way or revealing what his plan might be.


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## The World (Sep 8, 2009)

Nozdormu can't even die, because he knows exactly when he will die. 

Also necromancy is a common thing in WoW, people bring back other people all the time as spirits, ghosts, spirits in armor, spirits in other lifeforms, or their regular self.


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## Fang (Sep 8, 2009)

Neutral universe settings.


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## Raigen (Sep 8, 2009)

Necromancy started 10,000yrs earlier at the hands of the Nathrezim (aka Dreadlords). 4100yrs earlier a Magi turned himself into an undead in order to win a decisive battle and became part of the Secret Council that would empower the Guardian if Tirisfal. So, yeah, undead have been around for a looooooooooooooong time.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 9, 2009)

I'm still under the belief that Nozdormu will be a non-factor here. To him, time is already set in motion. SW invading Azeroth could have been forseen and even allowed by time. If he did not know of the SWU invading WCU, then we can't say he knows when he will die, as an unknown variable as interjected itself into the timeline.


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## FireEel (Sep 9, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> So in order for Nozdormu to mess with the timeline, something has to go wrong with it first. He's only allowed to intervene to set things right.
> 
> Ok, so prove that Star Wars winning the battle is "wrong" in the timeline. Otherwise, Nozdormu wouldn't interfere in the battle.



Because this is clearly out of plot relevance. When we place two characters of different verses against each other(etc Orihime vs Nami), no one is gonna go "but Orihime will refuse to fight!" or something, because that will simply be retarded. We will all assume Orihime is out to kill.

Similarly here, it is of no importance, because Stars Wars and Warcraft are very different verses. Thus, Nozodormu is ready to use the full extent of his abilities.



madcow3005 said:


> The Lich King is the current most powerful entity on Azeroth that isn't sealed.



No he is not. Alexstrasza is stronger. Kil'jaeden is stronger(he is not sealed, he is simply unable to come into Azeroth without a special portal because he is so strong). Algalon is stronger.


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## The World (Sep 9, 2009)

There's also Queen Azshara, the Elemental Lords, the Old Gods, Neltharion, Elune, Malfurion, etc etc.


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## dummy plug (Sep 9, 2009)

i like Warcraft more but seriously, the Starwars-verse is stronger


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## Banhammer (Sep 9, 2009)

Star Wars verse obliterates warcraft with a vague sense of confusion as to why they're bothering.


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## Raigen (Sep 9, 2009)

SW-verse isn't stronger, just more numerous. SW doesn't have deities, they only have "The Force" which is about what "The Light" is to Paladins and human Priests in WoW. As I've said before, if you took out the cosmic level people (deities, demigods, aspects, etc) then sure, SW wins hands down because they can just fuck Azeroth from orbit and then head to Draenor and wonder how the hell it's still there in its condition before blowing it up completely.

But, again, as people continue ignoring, anything goes. That means Gods, demigods, Titans, Aspects, the Old Gods, Elemental Lords, Naaru, etc, all of which SW can't do shit about. It doesn't matter how powerful a weapon you have when all the people operating it are normal people with no way of protecting themselves against magic, mindrape or any other force. Their only protection would be from Jedi/Sith and they're not adequate enough to fend off the insane forces of such beings. Especially not when the Titans can be the size of planets and just grab the Death Star like it's a softball and lob it into the sun or crush it, and that's assuming they didn't outright mindfuck the entire crew of people on it first.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 9, 2009)

Provide evidence of Titan size and mind-fuckery, as well as an explanation as to why anything except the Titans, Old Gods, and Nozdormu posses a chance here. You gave a big list, none of them except two are possibly solar-system+, and the third is by using time-bullocks.


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## Fang (Sep 9, 2009)

The Force is responsible for the establishment of a entire universe.


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## Raigen (Sep 9, 2009)

Supposedly. They say it exists in all living things....yet there are creatures where it's not a part of and that it can't affect. One such appeared in "Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter" within the very underground tunnel system of Coruscant. The Force couldn't affect it and it just seemed like a void in the Force itself. A lightsaber couldn't even hurt it. Pissed it off a little, but the beam just bounces off its body.


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## Fang (Sep 9, 2009)

You are wrong, its presence was described as "slippery" in the Force and when trying to probe it, it seem to absorb the empathatic calls.


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## Raigen (Sep 9, 2009)

Actually, you're wrong. When they tried to probe it, it went right through the creature, not absorbed by.


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## Fang (Sep 9, 2009)

You are wrong: one, being resistant to lightsabers has nothing to do with the Force directly.

Two, they were still visible to sense by a Force-User if enough effort was put into a probe, as Maul does in Shadow Hunter.

Don't make shit up.


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## Raigen (Sep 9, 2009)

Shadow Hunter, chapter 24 page 225.


> Maul frowned. There was an odd quality ahead of them in the darkness--*an empty spot in the mental topography*. The light, which he now realized had to be from the droid's photoreceptors, gave him a brief glimpse of something huge and oddly insubstantial, like a weaving pillar of smoke ahead of the three in the middle of the bridge. Whatever he saw produced no corresponding vibration in the Force.
> This was most odd.
> *Curious, he tried again. And again his probe met with nothingness. No, not exactly nothingness---the sensation was almost like encountering a surface so slick that one could find no purchase on it.* It was like trying to see something that radiated only ultraviolet light. A strange phenomenon, but one he paid little attention to, because now he noted that the Jedi and Pavan were coming back along the bridge toward him.



The only thing you were right about was what it felt like, slick. Your statement of it being absorbed is purely false. The probe went around and/or passed through it. It was not absorbed by it. Pavan later used a small piece of this same creature to mask himself from the Force in order to try and kill Maul. Maul was surprised, but since Pavan only had his weapon on stun (since it was low on power and stun-setting only had enough for 3 shots) he tried to get in close while Maul was paralyzed and kill him. Too bad that even with 3 stun shots Maul recovered on seconds and kicked Pavan's ass.


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## Fang (Sep 9, 2009)

So you admit you were completely wrong about the Force probes "passing" through the Taozin.


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## Raigen (Sep 9, 2009)

TWF said:


> So you admit you were completely wrong about the Force probes "passing" through the Taozin.



Wasn't wrong. It being 'slick' doesn't mean they didn't pass through it. After all both Maul and Darsha appeared to feel 'Nothing' from it. Now, why don't you just admit that it didn't absorb the Force probes as you so claimed?


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## Fang (Sep 9, 2009)

Not getting a return on the probe isn't the same as Force Probes being ineffective. Absorb was used in the same way as to describe the fact Maul got nothing on return except a echo of the Taozin, which was barely perceptible to him.

You clearly do not know what you are talking about when it comes to Star Wars. The Vong are described as "voids" in the Force, completely outside of it, not "slick", you really don't know what your talking about it.


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## Raigen (Sep 9, 2009)

Apparently you're the one who doesn't know. Either it passed around or passed through it. It's like Jello. It's slick, gooey. I can stick a knife through it easy. Some resistance, but it goes through. Pour some water on it, and it slides around with little resistance, it doesn't get absorbed by the jello (maybe eventually, but that's not the point). There is nothing stating that the probe was absorbed by the Taozin. I even quoted the book. I can even provide further evidence of your wrongness.

Chapter 25, page 236.


> They were supposed to be extinct--but then, so were the Sith. Sidious' apprentice sent a strong tendril of power molded from the dark side toward the creature--and felt the mental probe pass right _through_ it, as light penetrates transparisteel.


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## Fang (Sep 9, 2009)

You are wrong. As Pavan points out, they are invisible to the perceptions of Force-Users. 

A taozin does not invalidate a Force-User's Precognition or enhanced senses, or for that matter any other ability, only their empathatic and telepathic abilities.

They are not seperate from the Force.

And "pouring like light through transparisteel" analogy means that there was no resistance, as your own quote points out, there is no return, no echo for a psyhic probe.

Learn your stuff.


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## Raigen (Sep 9, 2009)

Again.


> They were supposed to be extinct--but then, so were the Sith. Sidious' apprentice sent a strong tendril of power molded from the dark side toward the creature--and felt the mental probe pass right *through* it, as light penetrates transparisteel.



Did you not get that? It wasn't absorbed, bounced off, or even went around. It wen *through* it. You were utterly wrong and you continue to ignore this fact and act like you were always right. Just admit you were wrong.


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## Fang (Sep 9, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Again.
> 
> 
> Did you not get that? It wasn't absorbed, bounced off, or even went around. It wen *through* it. You were utterly wrong and you continue to ignore this fact and act like you were always right. Just admit you were wrong.



I already covered this, you might want to pick up your reading comprehension skills before you repeat the same thing ad naseum. 



			
				Shadow Hunter said:
			
		

> *as light penetrates transparisteel*



Both Maul and Darsha covered the fact there was no return on their Force-Probes, like having echo location blocked off before it can make a return signal.

Now try again on attempting to challenge me on anything involving Star Wars.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 9, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Provide evidence of Titan size and mind-fuckery, as well as an explanation as to why anything except the Titans, Old Gods, and Nozdormu posses a chance here. You gave a big list, none of them except two are possibly solar-system+, and the third is by using time-bullocks.



Waiting for a response here, Raigen.


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## Raigen (Sep 9, 2009)

Already showed that. Did you not see the picture of Sargeras?


Ysera mindraped an army of demons, Archimonde mindraped Malfurion and Rhonin, Sargeras mindscrewed the Highborne and made them his slaves, Deathwing has mindscrewed people, even controlled Rhonin for a while, the Old Gods mindscrew continuously while imprisoned (they drove Neltharion insane and corrupted various others, including a number of people that then formed the Twilight Hammer). Mindscrewing is a pretty regular thing in WoW.


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## The World (Sep 9, 2009)

Btw the Sageras that was supposedly "killed" by a human Aegwynn, was just his avatar and was also apart of his plan to posses Aegwynn's son.


That's his avatar and he has one of many.

He's still alive and well somewhere in the Twisting Nether. Dude is so strong he needs to be summoned through a portal because his chaotic energies would rip the planet apart.


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## Raigen (Sep 9, 2009)

WoW has complete victory. They have the power of the Boombox.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiI2P-ZRCds[/YOUTUBE]


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## Glued (Sep 9, 2009)

I was reading a WoW comic today, apparently there is this new guy, Me'dan. Apparently he's the son of Medivh and Garona. He can use both the Arcane and Shamanism, plus he is now instantaneously learning Divine magic. So he is part Draenei, part Orc and part human, which somehow means he can do all of this nonsense despite the arcane magics and nature magics differ, not to mention divine magics and nature magics need two different types of faith. Now their planning on turning him into a guardian like Aegwynn and Medivh, but instead of just using archmages, their going to bring in priests, paladins, mages, shamans and druids for the ceremony, so he will become the strongest mage/ strongest priest/ strongest paladin/ strongest druid/ strongest shaman despite the fact he is only a teenager. Someone explain how the heck can you be a paladin knight and follower of the Holy light, while still be a shaman or druid. This defies the Lore of the Game.

To top it all of C'Thun is actually afraid of Me'dan and what he might become. One of the Old Gods is afraid of this runt kid. Their calling him the "Chosen one" and "Savior of Azeroth"

He looks like he may become an ultimate God Mode Gary Stu.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Sep 10, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Already showed that. Did you not see the picture of Sargeras?


That's no different than people calling Hulk planet sized because of the art. Brox inflicted a minor wound on Sargeras that was visible to other people later on. If he was indeed the size of a planet, and Brox's ax is only a few feet long, then Rhonin and Krasus must have spy-sat eyeballs in order to spot the insignificant wound.



> Ysera mindraped an army of demons, Archimonde mindraped Malfurion and Rhonin, Sargeras mindscrewed the Highborne and made them his slaves, Deathwing has mindscrewed people, even controlled Rhonin for a while, the Old Gods mindscrew continuously while imprisoned (they drove Neltharion insane and corrupted various others, including a number of people that then formed the Twilight Hammer). Mindscrewing is a pretty regular thing in WoW.



Okay, now "an army of demons" how large? A few thousand? The Death Star has millions of people on it. Not to mention it will be many light minutes away. You're suggesting Ysera could potentially mindfuck anybody across the entire planet effortlessly. Yet she can't.


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## The World (Sep 10, 2009)

Raigen said:


> WoW has complete victory. They have the power of the Boombox.
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiI2P-ZRCds[/YOUTUBE]



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm63Gmaxlho[/YOUTUBE]



Ben Grimm said:


> I was reading a WoW comic today, apparently there is this new guy, Me'dan. Apparently he's the son of Medivh and Garona. He can use both the Arcane and Shamanism, plus he is now instantaneously learning Divine magic. So he is part Draenei, part Orc and part human, which somehow means he can do all of this nonsense despite the arcane magics and nature magics differ, not to mention divine magics and nature magics need two different types of faith. Now their planning on turning him into a guardian like Aegwynn and Medivh, but instead of just using archmages, their going to bring in priests, paladins, mages, shamans and druids for the ceremony, so he will become the strongest mage/ strongest priest/ strongest paladin/ strongest druid/ strongest shaman despite the fact he is only a teenager. Someone explain how the heck can you be a paladin knight and follower of the Holy light, while still be a shaman or druid. This defies the Lore of the Game.
> 
> To top it all of C'Thun is actually afraid of Me'dan and what he might become. One of the Old Gods is afraid of this runt kid. Their calling him the "Chosen one" and "Savior of Azeroth"
> 
> He looks like he may become an ultimate God Mode Gary Stu.



When was this? Considering C'thun is dead. Or banished. Is it even canon? I thought Medivh only had 2 kids.


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## madcow3005 (Sep 10, 2009)

FireEel said:


> Because this is clearly out of plot relevance. When we place two characters of different verses against each other(etc Orihime vs Nami), no one is gonna go "but Orihime will refuse to fight!" or something, because that will simply be retarded. We will all assume Orihime is out to kill.
> 
> Similarly here, it is of no importance, because Stars Wars and Warcraft are very different verses. Thus, Nozodormu is ready to use the full extent of his abilities.
> 
> ...



Even if he can fight, Nozdormu hasn't shown the necessary time-feats to wipe out a galactic civilization. 

He's never aged someone thousands of years, or aged anything beyond Azeroth, or done anything besides limited manipulation of the timestream on Azeroth.

And notice I said "on Azeroth" when I made that comment.

Kiljaeden isn't on Azeroth. Alextrasza isn't stronger, given that if she was she could have killed the Lich King at the Wrathgate, since she was literally only a few seconds late to the battle, and could've flown over the gate and incinerated him while he was retreating, weakened by poison.


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## Clearmoon (Sep 10, 2009)

To be honest, Warcraft lore is terribly inconsistant and full of PIS, especially if you include ingame feats. Technically, the Old Gods should be cosmic level, but apparently destroying the planet is enough to get rid of them, which SWverse could do without sweating. Titans can apparently destroy galaxies with ease but still can't seem to wipe out the Burning Legion home planets, despite Sargeras being 'banished'. That said, judging strength based on WoW, is like judging SW strength based only on the explicit events of the movies.

SW wins though, just because of clear feats.


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## Glued (Sep 10, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm63Gmaxlho[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> 
> 
> When was this? Considering C'thun is dead. Or banished. Is it even canon? I thought Medivh only had 2 kids.



He lives again. According to the warlock nearby, Me'dan at one point hung on its corpse while he was captured by the Twilight's Hammer, which is lead by Cho'gall.

Truth is, its even more canon than the games. For example, Onyxia, was killed by King Varian Wrynn. All he needed was to shove a sword into the dragon's mouth. Onyxia was probably the third most powerful black dragon, and all it took to beat her was a sword.

Comics are filled with Soap Opera-ish overpowered children of former characters.

King Varian Wrynn, son of King Llane, from the original Warcraft, was attacked by dark magics, washed up on Kalimdor. Then he lost all his memory, beat up a giant crocodile and was captured by Reghar, the supposed greatest gladiator trainer the horde had ever seen. This happened the day after Reghar's champion, Bloodeye, the greatest gladiator was poisoned, so Reghar was looking for a replacement. In 3 weeks time Varian became gladiator champion of kalimdor. Varian can kill anything, he killed a dragon-sized coatl with just a spear. His fellow gladiator, Broll, is apparently a rare Druid of the Wild.


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## Zaru (Sep 10, 2009)

Clearmoon said:


> the Burning Legion home planets



I think the word "infinite" was used regularly when referring to the twisted nether and the amount of demons in existence

So since when do they have home planets


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## Raigen (Sep 10, 2009)

Onyxia wasn't just 'slain by sword'. Damn near everything is magically powered/enchanted and also to say she was 3rd strongest is too extreme. She was the daughter of Neltharion so she did have power, but saying that is still a bit of a stretch. Their most prominent feats are manipulating people behind the scenes. Hell just looking at Varian's swords tells you they're not normal blades. Also I don't recall that being Alexstrasza at the Wrath Gate since there were several Red dragons, not just one, and Alextrasza is of the largest dragons in the world, only matched in size by Neltharion himself.

Also, the Twisting Nether is an infinite spiral. When Mannoroth was attempting to re-open the portal, he said he could not sense *eternity* (he was actually referring to Sargeras who resides within the Twisting Nether), which both indicates the force within that dimension and the fact he failed to get it open right away. You could say some of the Legion 'had' home worlds, before they were transformed into demons by Sargeras and their numbers added to the already boundless legions of demonic beings.

Besides, it's not just C'thun you gotta worry about. There's Yogg-Sarron in Ulduar. Then there's also the Dark Portal to Outland where there are other portals unto which Demons enter through constantly. Besides, who're you calling overpowered Children? That's damn near every freakin Jedi in current EU now. Plus, Yogg-Sarron's blood itself seems to be what makes Sarronite.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MtnK9STuOg[/YOUTUBE]


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## The World (Sep 10, 2009)

Zaru said:


> I think the word "infinite" was used regularly when referring to the twisted nether and the amount of demons in existence
> 
> So since when do they have home planets



 You tell him. Burning Legion spans the whole Twisting Nether. He's probably thinking about Argus, the homeworld of the Eredar. In other words he should brush up on his lore before spouting shit.


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## Glued (Sep 10, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Onyxia wasn't just 'slain by sword'. Damn near everything is magically powered/enchanted and also to say she was 3rd strongest is too extreme. She was the daughter of Neltharion so she did have power, but saying that is still a bit of a stretch. Their most prominent feats are manipulating people behind the scenes. Hell just looking at Varian's swords tells you they're not normal blades. Also I don't recall that being Alexstrasza at the Wrath Gate since there were several Red dragons, not just one, and Alextrasza is of the largest dragons in the world, only matched in size by Neltharion himself.
> 
> Also, the Twisting Nether is an infinite spiral. When Mannoroth was attempting to re-open the portal, he said he could not sense *eternity* (he was actually referring to Sargeras who resides within the Twisting Nether), which both indicates the force within that dimension and the fact he failed to get it open right away. You could say some of the Legion 'had' home worlds, before they were transformed into demons by Sargeras and their numbers added to the already boundless legions of demonic beings.
> 
> ...



That video does not do Anduin justice. In the comics is without a doubt supersonic. In one panel he's talking to a troll, in the next panel there is a blade go through the troll. He did it in a gladiatorial ring and not a single person in the collesium saw what he did. No one even saw the sword leave his hand. This was before he got those two magical blades. During the championship match Anduin once again became a blur to the crowd like one of those shounen heroes. No one even sees him move. He left an after image, that is how fast he was. They gave him the name Lo'gosh after some sort of ancient wolf. Anduin takes an ordinary spear from a ship and hurls it into the air and kills a dragon-sized coatl summon. That caotl at least 50 feet above the ship. They should send him to play baseball, the ball would go straight through the catcher's hand. At one point Broll was losing control of his powers and he was spewing lightning in every direction and Anduin dodged lightning. Broll lost his temper once, turned into a bear one time and tried to attack an ogre child, but Anduin was able to hold him back. He held back an enraged grizzly bear with his hands. He was able to knock back a giant alligator with a rock and then killed with a piece of timber lying around. He broke the finger of an earth elemental using a rock, then bought down a cavern using that finger. Broll was once about to be smashed by an ogre, Anduin runs from the other side of the collesium, flips over the ogre (This is where he left the afterimage), lands on the ogre's club then slice off the ogre's head.

Then we find out that he was only at half strength. Lo'gosh was a part of Anduin that was separated from the real Anduin. The two of them later fusion back together and kill the daughter of Deathwing. Yes they FUSIONED and became some sort of UB3R h4xxorez Lo'Gosh Anduin Wrynn

Anduin also has some sort of weird yellow glow, not holy light though. It happens when he gets pissed and going crazy.

Anduin may not be a child, but some of his feats are ridiculous. He's not human, I don't care how much he trained. No human can do the type of shit Anduin could do. 

He's just a man, how the Hell could he kill the daughter of Deathwing, Neltharion. Broll and Jaina were knocked out and he solo'ed her. 

As for kids, Me'dan is the child of prophecy. He just killed a King Kong sized monster with some sort of Arcane magic. He burned it to a crisp and now Theramore has enough food for a year. He's already overpowered and now they want to turn him into some sort of uber Guardian with Nature and Divine magics. Imagine if you were to take Jaina + Thrall + Broll + Maraad + Super strong Priest + Garona's fighting ability, then put them all together. When all that is done, you maximize his power to be greater than that of Medivh back when he was Guardian. Since he can use divine and nature magic, he should be three times more powerful than Medivh.

C'Thun is continuously whispering to him, but he is able to resist. C'Thun can't even mindfuck this child, yet him and two others mindfucked Neltharion. Now that he can use the power of Holy Light, C'Thun can't whisper to him anymore. C'Thun and Yogg's mindfucking abilities are worthless in the face of Priests and Paladins. I am not big on Star Wars, but I believe they have some sort of monks that can resist mindfucking. Plus the Force could probably be used as a substitute for Holy Light.

Has there ever been a child as ridiculous as Me'dan in EU, one that defies the rules made in his own universe. As I said, ULTIMATE GARY STU?


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## Raigen (Sep 10, 2009)

Actually, at the end of "The Last Guardian", Medihv took back all the power of The Guardian that had become a part of Kharazan when he was killed. Medihv still is the Guardian and has all his power, which is why in "Day of the Dragon" Deathwing notes that he would not willingly confront Medihv in combat. Also, on Varia's wiki page, they kinda referred to him as the 'Anti-Thrall'.

Also to note, it was all 3 Old Gods who mindfucked Neltharion and that was also due in part to the Well of Eternity. When Nozdormu dove into the well while drawing on power from all his incarnations, the Old Gods nearly ripped him apart and attempted to drag Nozdormu into the bottomless depths of the well to be lost for eternity. He barely escaped. The Well is fragmented currently. Incomplete under the World Tree with part of the power residing within the Sunwell. Also it's quite noted that the Old Gods aren't even at a fraction of their power because they're sealed, and even after awakening the Old Gods still need a great deal of time to build up their power again. An Old God at full power would make short work of Sargeras.

On point, you did say Varian was merged with his twin self, a copy that was created by the dark magics of Onyxia herself and the Black Dragons. Note that the _Demon Soul_ created by Deathwing could be damaged by nothing save his own flesh, which was used to break it and release the essence of the other Aspects. Same idea here but on a lower power scale. The 'other' Varian was made with Onyxia's power and that in turn became part of the 'real' Varian when they merged, thus making him pretty freaking Uber and basically had like anti-Onyxia power.

Things like this have happened. Hell after Melorne was killed by Archimonde during the War of the Ancients, Malfurion nearly killed Archimonde by constricting him with giant tree roots and vines that were literally trying to bind and crush his body with unimaginable force. Archimonde barely had enough strength to port himself free before they killed him. Some of these guys are just really freakin uber. Like Broxxigar and Turyalon. Even Khadgar had proven his metal.


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## Glued (Sep 10, 2009)

-You know how it took 6 archmages for the ritual to create the guardian. They plan to use Druids, priests, paladins, archmages, shamans to supercharge Me'dan. C'Thun is already afraid of Me'dan's potential. You say that C'Thun>Sargeras. What does that say about Me'dan. You know the funny thing is though, "The Last Guardian" was supposed to be Medivh and at end of Warcraft 3 Medivh stated that fate of the world would now rest in the hands of humans, orcs and night elves. All of a sudden everyone wants Me'dan to become the next guardian, including Aegwynn

-Turalyon was a Paladin, thus empowered by supernatural forces. Malfurion is a druid and can command nature. Khadgar was a mage. Anduin is something else.


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## Raigen (Sep 11, 2009)

I think you're mixing up Anduin with Varian. Anduin Lothar is long dead. He was known as the Lion of Azeroth and served under King Llane. Lothar was felled in battle against Orgrim Doomhammer, his enchanted sword broken. Turyalon, filled with righteous fury, took up the broken sword and using that, plus his own mace, battled Orgrim and defeated him.

Also, the potential of the Guardian is boundless since it's cumulative. Each generation of Guardian is stronger than the previous one, inheriting the formers power. Also, again, C'thun is at less than a fraction of his full power, as is Yogg-Sarron. The only thing the Old Gods are really afraid of is being stuck back in their prisons for another countless eternity.


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## Gnome (Sep 11, 2009)

There's a bunch of rumors floating around that Thrall will become the next guardian


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## Glued (Sep 11, 2009)

Raigen said:


> I think you're mixing up Anduin with Varian. Anduin Lothar is long dead. He was known as the Lion of Azeroth and served under King Llane. Lothar was felled in battle against Orgrim Doomhammer, his enchanted sword broken. Turyalon, filled with righteous fury, took up the broken sword and using that, plus his own mace, battled Orgrim and defeated him.
> 
> Also, the potential of the Guardian is boundless since it's cumulative. Each generation of Guardian is stronger than the previous one, inheriting the formers power. Also, again, C'thun is at less than a fraction of his full power, as is Yogg-Sarron. The only thing the Old Gods are really afraid of is being stuck back in their prisons for another countless eternity.



My apologies, I meant King Varian Wrynn. I keep getting his name mixed up with his son Anduin Wrynn, who was named after Anduin Lothar.

As for C'Thun, rather than trying to free himself, he is sending Cho'Gall and the Twilight Hammer to get Me'dan. He is attacking Me'dan on three fronts. With his monsters, with the Twilight Hammer and with his own mental attacks. 

PS: Thrall becoming the next Guardian is a rumor. Aegwynn and Jaina are both bent on making Me'dan the next guardian. Hell, Medivh just kidnapped Me'dan and took him to Karazhan tower for some reason. I don't know how Aegwynn figured out that Me'dan was Medivh's son. He doesn't even look like Medivh


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## Raigen (Sep 11, 2009)

Well, as I said, each generation of Guardian is more powerful than the last. Medihv is already as powerful as an Aspect. If Me'dan already has tremendous latent potential, and he became the next Guardian, yeah he'd probably be much more powerful than Medihv. Especially if you get people like Jain and Druids like Broll and Malfurion to empower him. There was something Krasus said to Furion in the WotA trilogy; "You are a druid, Malfurion. *The World* is you strength."


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