# Who can dodge Amaterasu?



## Cognitios (Jun 15, 2014)

Amaterasu speed is pretty controversial. 
So who can actually dodge it?
Basically if Itachi were to set off an amaterasu at a person who could dodge it or activate a defense fast enough to block it.
My list

*Spoiler*: __ 




Minato
Tobirama
E
KCM Naruto+
7th Gate Gai+
Current Sasuke
Other God Tiers


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## Shinryu (Jun 15, 2014)

RM/BM/BSM/Rikudo Naruto
EMS/Rikudo Sasuke
Ei
Sandaime Raikage
Obito/Juubito
Minato
Prime Nagato
Tobirama
Madara/Juudara
Bee Jin Form V2
Hashirama
SM Kabuto
Gai 7/8 gates
Kisame
Kurama
Matarabi
Shukaku
Isobu
Son Goku
Chromei
Saiken
Gyuki
Kokuo
Shinju
Hamura
Ashura
Indra
Kaguya
Hagoromo
Kyuubi Chakra Cloak Anyone


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## Ersa (Jun 15, 2014)

*Dodge*:
Gai (8th Gate)
KCM Naruto (and up)
V2 Ei
Minato (KCM and up)
Rikudos

*Defense*:
EMS Madara
Minato
Nagato
Tobirama
EMS Sasuke
SM Hashirama


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 15, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> RM/BM/BSM/Rikudo Naruto
> EMS/Rikudo Sasuke
> Ei
> Sandaime Raikage
> ...



SM Naruto should be able to sense it coming too


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## Dr. White (Jun 15, 2014)

If they know it's coming? 
-Minato
-Tobirama
-Hashirama
-Madara
-Ei
-7th Gate Gai
-KCM Naruto and up
-EMS Sauce and up


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## Rocky (Jun 15, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> V2 Ei
> KCM Naruto (and up)
> Minato (KCM and up)
> 8th Gate Gai
> Rikudos



..and Base Minato, Tobirama, Nagato (or Pain), Mu (if he can erect a basic Doton wall), Sage Naruto, Sage Shodai...there may be more.


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## Fiiction (Jun 15, 2014)

Hashirama. His speed is under rated.
Madara.
Sasuke
Naruto
Ei
Tobirama
Minato
Haku
Kimimaro
Obito
Muu via sense

Pretty sure there are more, I listed each ninja at their prime.


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## Joakim3 (Jun 15, 2014)

(excluding the god tiers)

*Physically Dodge It:*
Gai 7th Gate+
RM Naruto+
V2 Ei

*Activate a defense in time to defend against it:*
EMS Madara
Minato
Nagato (or his Paths)
Tobirama
EMS Sasuke
Rinnegan Obito+
SM Naruto
SM Hashirama
SM Kabuto

*Honorable mentions:*
Mu & Karin can all sense it in time, but lack the instant Jutsu to actually stop if from landing


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## Krippy (Jun 15, 2014)

Joakim3 said:


> (excluding the god tiers)
> 
> *Physically Dodge It:*
> Gai
> ...



Pretty much this. They have to have knowledge that it's coming in order to defend against it.


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## Dr. White (Jun 15, 2014)

Pain Paths get slaughtered barring Preta. Nagato canonically was blasted and put down by the wildfire so much that his Edo body quit out on him.


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## Ersa (Jun 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ..and Base Minato, Tobirama, Nagato (or Pain), Mu (if he can erect a basic Doton wall), Sage Naruto, Sage Shodai...there may be more.


Hmm I misread the OP; my post was for physically dodging it. In that case

I'd agree with those except Muu and iffy on SM Naruto; Muu lacks the reflexes (even given the time advantage sensing gives him) to mount a proper defense and SM Naruto has neither the speed nor defense to block the attack unless it's long range I feel.


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## Joakim3 (Jun 15, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Pain Paths get slaughtered barring Preta. Nagato canonically was blasted and put down by the wildfire so much that his Edo body quit out on him.



The paths have the same reactions as Nagato..... and Itachi can't hit any path without going through Tendo first.

Did you ever think Nagato _let_ himself be hit?


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## Dr. White (Jun 15, 2014)

Joakim3 said:


> The paths have the same reactions as Nagato..... and Itachi can't hit any path without going through Tendo first.
> 
> Did you ever think Nagato _let_ himself be hit?



None of them are moving as fast as Ei can. Amaterasu doesn't travel like a projectile so they are not dodging it. Preta can only travel to the body that got hit and start absorbing it. Leaving it open to an attack/more than one can be hit at a time.


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## Shinryu (Jun 15, 2014)

All the people I listed would be capable of naturally reacting to it at point blank range.Amaterasu isnt really that fast.


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## Veracity (Jun 15, 2014)

Physically dodge:
Naruto 
Sasuke 
Sage 
Kaguya
Juubi Jin's
Ay
Tobirama 
Minato
Gai 

Defend:
Eveyone above^
Kamui Obito
Madara 
Kakashi 
Nagato
Itachi himself
Sannin members( at certain distance)
Bee
Kurama


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## Kyu (Jun 15, 2014)

*Dodge:*

-RSM/BSM/BM/KCM Naruto
-Sharinnegan Sasuke
-Max Shroud A
-Minato (through _FTG_)
-7th Gated Gai and up
-Tobirama (given a tag is located elsewhere)
-Juubi's Jinchuriki 

*Defend:*

-Hashirama (Mokuton constructs)
-Minato (_S/T Barrier_) 
-Nagato (_Preta_ or _Shinra Tensei_)
-EMS Sasuke (_Susano'o_)
-EMS Madara (_Susano'o_)
-MS Obito (_Kamui_)
-SM  Naruto (_Kage Bunshin_)
-Juubi's Jinchuriki


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## Rocky (Jun 15, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> I'd agree with those except Muu and iffy on SM Naruto; Muu lacks the reflexes (even given the time advantage sensing gives him) to mount a proper defense and SM Naruto has neither the speed nor defense to block the attack unless it's long range I feel.



With foreknowledge of the technique, Mu is going to sense the build-up in Itachi's eye, and a Doton Wall is a rather simple and quick Jutsu to perform. 

Same with Sage Naruto, except we're switching the Doton Wall for Kage Bunshin. He essentially blocks with a clone meat-shield.


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## Shinryu (Jun 15, 2014)

Is Amaterasu focused on or it is simply imagined on the opponent?

Lets say guy A uses Amaterasu on a box.A black flame forms a couple inchs above the box then drops down on it

Now guy B uses Amaterasu on a box.The very top of the box simply burst into black flames.There was no distance between the flames or the box.The flames instantly were on the box.


So the real question is Amaterasu form on the object or formed a couple inchs away from the object.If it is the first option then that means Amaterasu is technically impossible to avoid since you could swing your hand all you want because the flames will instantly SPAWN ON YOUR HANDS.


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## Joakim3 (Jun 16, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> None of them are moving as fast as Ei can. Amaterasu doesn't travel like a projectile so they are not dodging it. Preta can only travel to the body that got hit and start absorbing it. Leaving it open to an attack/more than one can be hit at a time.



Because Tendo can just _Shinra Tensei_ everything within a couple hundred feat in front of it and the others paths?


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## Dr. White (Jun 16, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> Is Amaterasu focused on or it is simply imagined on the opponent?
> 
> 
> So the real question is Amaterasu form on the object or formed a couple inchs away from the object.If it is the first option then that means Amaterasu is technically impossible to avoid since you could swing your hand all you want because the flames will instantly SPAWN ON YOUR HANDS.



It is the latter, it appears directly on the target. There are a few takes on how.
A.) It appears directly on what the user is focusing on. let's take the Ei example.  In that instance what appeared to have happened was the flames spawned on Ei, but he was fast enough to essentially run off of them, hence why the first appear to hit his afterimage, and immediately spawn on what was behind him (the samurai). This would also explain why madara's clothes were on fire but not him, and sasuke spawned it on his armor and madara was quick enough to simply get out in time.
B.) The user focuses on a target, and after charging it sends it (invisibly?) at extreme speeds. This could be interpreted from the Hachibi panel where we see several panels panning in on the bjuu until we eventually see Bee on fire.

Personally I view it as the first one because the flames didn't appear on hachibi until they reached his body, which would beg the question: If it is some invisible chakra travelling through the air, why is it different than the black fire, and how does it turn into or catalyze the black flames?


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## Dr. White (Jun 16, 2014)

Joakim3 said:


> Because Tendo can just _Shinra Tensei_ everything within a couple hundred feat in front of it and the others paths?



Nagato as an edo had full knowledge on Itachi's amaterasu, and was still unable to avoid it after watching him burn down the kyuubi and comment on "seeing what Itachi did". Both his bird and body were felled, and it took Kabuto taking control to save him. (as his edo body would have have absorbed it, or defending if it could)


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## trance (Jun 16, 2014)

Bar god tiers....
*
-V2 Ei (as he did in canon)
-7th Gate Gai
-KCM Naruto (since he's canonically faster than V2 Ei)
-Minato (same as with KCM Naruto
-Tobirama (not for certain but it's debatable)*


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## Rocky (Jun 16, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Nagato as an edo had full knowledge on Itachi's amaterasu, and was still unable to avoid it after watching him burn down the kyuubi and comment on "seeing what Itachi did". Both his bird and body were felled, and it took Kabuto taking control to save him. (as his edo body would have have absorbed it, or defending if it could)



Um, Nagato wasn't fighting back because he didn't want to.

The moment Kabuto took control and _forced_ him to, Nagato got rid of Amaterasu.


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## Dr. White (Jun 16, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Um, Nagato wasn't fighting back because he didn't want to.
> 
> The moment Kabuto took control and _forced_ him to, Nagato got rid of Amaterasu.



What?  

Edo's cannot hold back from getting hit. Hence why Trollkage had to fight Gaara and co, same with sandaime. Once Kabuto put them on auto attack they had to fight and defend as they normally would (it wasn't direct control highlighted by their eyes not being darkened) hence why Itachi katon'd mid sentence and Nagato Bt'd Naruto in the first place. Quotes like "don't look at my eyes" from Itachi and "behind you" suggest no control. It is crazy to think that Nagato somehow gained the ability to choose not to dodge especially after seeing Cerberus burn and specifically noting what he had done. 

Also his body would have kept on fighting if it could similar to how Raikage got back up after being hit with FRS and Fuuton, despite telling them to use their fuuton (indicating he wanted to be put down)


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## ARGUS (Jun 16, 2014)

*DODGE*
God tiers
A
Guy 
Possibly Rock Lee 
Minato
Tobirama 
Obito
Naruto
Third Raikage (*)
Hebi Sasuke (*)

*Defense/Counters*
Hashirama
Madara
Nagato 
Kabuto
Pein
Gaara
Fourth Kazekage
Orochimaru
Muu
Konan
SM Naruto
Killer Bee (V2)


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## ARGUS (Jun 16, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Nagato as an edo had full knowledge on Itachi's amaterasu, and was still unable to avoid it after watching him burn down the kyuubi and comment on "seeing what Itachi did". Both his bird and body were felled, and it took Kabuto taking control to save him. (as his edo body would have have absorbed it, or defending if it could)



lol wut,,,he clearly didnt wana fight otherwise he can counter it with ease,,,
nagato sensed the oncoming amaterasu well before,, as he even warned naruto and bee about it ,,,,he can put the preta barrier up and absorb the flammes with ease if he wanted to fight,,, or he can simply repel the flames with ST


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## Dr. White (Jun 16, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> lol wut,,,he clearly didnt wana fight otherwise he can counter it with ease,,,
> nagato sensed the oncoming amaterasu well before,, as he even warned naruto and bee about it ,,,,he can put the preta barrier up and absorb the flammes with ease if he wanted to fight,,, or he can simply repel the flames with ST



He was on autofight he can't just sit a fight out. Or he would have just done so in the first place. Raikage didn't wanna fight and got up after an FRS, and was being controlled in the same way Nagato was. Why is NAgato special?

Spoiler: He isn't. Kabuto was a third party source and was able to use ST for him.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 16, 2014)

Hiraishin users (i.e., Minato and Tobirama) can simply teleport before it is cast.

The 4th Raikage or anyone faster (i.e., A, Naruto, Juubi Jinchuuriki, Gai with 8 or possibly fewer Gates) can dodge it completely by escaping the caster's field of vision.

Sensors who have speed superior or pretty comparable to Itachi's (i.e., Muu, Nagato, Tobirama, and Naruto) can detect Amaterasu and erect a barrier in time to block it.

Those who are not sensors, but possess a Doujutsu that can read chakra (i.e., Sharingan, Byakugan, and Rinnegan) and speed superior to or pretty comparable to Itachi's, should also be able to detect and block it.

Skin-shedders (i.e., Orochimaru, Hebi Sasuke, and Hebi Kabuto) can remove the flame after it hits.

Ninja who control particles that float around them (i.e., Kazekage 3-5) also appear to have the ability to block Amaterasu, although it's unclear if this only applies to the movement of the flames rather than their ignition.

Everyone else roasts.


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## ueharakk (Jun 16, 2014)

If the conditions are all the same as when Ei tried to dodge it (such as location, distance, knowledge etc)?

Basically anyone who has reactions and a flicker on par or greater than V2 Ei.

That would be:

KCM Naruto and higher forms
Minato
Tobirama
Juubi jinks
Kaguya
7th gated Gai and above
Sharinnegan Sasuke
8th gated Dai 

That's pretty much who can outright dodge the technique.  However if the question is 'who can avoid getting hit' then the list grows tremendously as outright dodging the technique with speed isn't the only way of avoiding it.


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## J★J♥ (Jun 16, 2014)

Kiba and above


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## crisler (Jun 16, 2014)

Depends really...

Amaterasu is instant the first time it's used because it's 'summoned'. from then, it's just a projectile that and is no longer super fast. 

Raikage, Naruto, Gai, Tobirama/Minato, Obito, Sasuke can avoid it with full speed when they know it's coming. Other than that, no one. 

If they are not aware of it coming, then I don't see anyone avoiding it.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 16, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Kiba and above



Kiba actually has like a 5 in speed, as of the last databook.

So you may be right.


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## ARGUS (Jun 16, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Kiba actually has like a 5 in speed, as of the last databook.
> 
> So you may be right.


holy shittee,, 
ur right man,,,he has 4.5, i cant believe it,, ahahhaah thats more  than tsunades


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 16, 2014)

*Dodge:*
SM/KCM/BM/BSM/RS Naruto
Rinnegan Sasuke
Minato Namikaze
V2 A
Eighth Gated Guy
V1 Sandaime Raikage 
Tobirama Senju
Juubi Jins

*Defend*
Mu
Onoki
Gaara
Killer Bee
Hashirama Senju 
Base Naruto Uzumaki (due to Tayju Kage Bushin)
Sage Mode Jiraiya (Summoning, using hair, etc. due to Sage Mode Sensing)
EMS Sasuke Uchiha
Orochimaru (Oral Rebirth)
Madara Uchiha


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## Ersa (Jun 16, 2014)

Tsunade has Itachi speed, Tsunade fans assure me that is true. She should be 5 in my opinion.


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## Rocky (Jun 16, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> What?
> 
> Edo's cannot hold back from getting hit. Hence why Trollkage had to fight Gaara and co, same with sandaime. Once Kabuto put them on auto attack they had to fight and defend as they normally would (it wasn't direct control highlighted by their eyes not being darkened) hence why Itachi katon'd mid sentence and Nagato Bt'd Naruto in the first place. Quotes like "don't look at my eyes" from Itachi and "behind you" suggest no control. It is crazy to think that Nagato somehow gained the ability to choose not to dodge especially after seeing Cerberus burn and specifically noting what he had done.
> 
> Also his body would have kept on fighting if it could similar to how Raikage got back up after being hit with FRS and Fuuton, despite telling them to use their fuuton (indicating he wanted to be put down)



They aren't always fighting back. This is why Sandaime Raikage stood there and let the alliance try and wind slice him to death. It's also why Itachi was able to back of from B and use Koto Amatsukami in an attempt to break out of Kabuto's control, rather than being forced to continue to engage B.

When Nagato was hit with Amaterasu, he wasn't fighting back at the moment. That's literally the only plausible explanation, because the _moment_ Kabuto took over, Nagato got rid of Amaterasu with no difficulty.


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## Veracity (Jun 16, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Tsunade has Itachi speed, Tsunade fans assure me that is true. She should be 5 in my opinion.



Blitzed 4.5 Oro while floored


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## trance (Jun 16, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Tsunade has Itachi speed, Tsunade fans assure me that is true. She should be 5 in my opinion.



Tsunade talk is serious business, m8.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 16, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Blitzed 4.5 Oro while floored


That was Orochimaru in a different body  His performance when using Genyumaru's body was rated 4.5.

Physically dodge: 
A
Gated Gai
KCM Naruto and above
SM Hashirama
Living SM Madara and above
Rinnegan Sasuke
BM Minato
Jubi-Jin Obito
SM Kabuto

Defend:
Minato
Tobirama
Hashirama
Orochimaru
Kakashi
Obito
Nagato
Pain
Susano-users
Danzo
Suigetsu
Hiruzen


Maybe I forgot some folks.


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## Mercurial (Jun 16, 2014)

*React + Physically Dodge Amaterasu:*

-RSM/BSM/BM/KCM Naruto
-Sharinnegan Sasuke (EMS/MS Sasuke briefly)
-Max Shroud A (RnY 1st level briefly)
-Minato (through _FTG_; with Shunshin speed briefly)
-6th Gated Gai and up (with lower Gates or in base briefly)
-Tobirama (through _FTG_; with Shunshin speed briefly)
-Juubi's Jinchuriki 
-Kakashi (briefly)
-Obito (briefly)
-SM Madara (EMS/Edo Madara briefly)
-Hashirama (briefly)
-SM Kabuto (maybe with enhanced perception he could completely evade)

*React + Defend with jutsu from Amaterasu:*

-Hashirama (_Mokuton_)
-Minato (_S/T Barrier_) 
-Nagato (_Preta_ or _Shinra Tensei_)
-MS/EMS Sasuke (_Susano'o_)
-EMS/Edo/SM Madara (_Susano'o_)
-Itachi (_Susano'o_)
-MS Kakashi (_Kamui_)
-MS/Rinnegan Obito (_Kamui_)
-SM/KM/BM/BSM/RSM Naruto (_Kage Bunshin_ or _chakra shroud_)
-SM Kabuto
-Juubi's Jinchuriki


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## Dr. White (Jun 16, 2014)

Rocky said:


> > They aren't always fighting back. This is why Sandaime Raikage stood there and let the alliance try and wind slice him to death. It's also why Itachi was able to back of from B and use Koto Amatsukami in an attempt to break out of Kabuto's control, rather than being forced to continue to engage B.
> 
> 
> Yes they are, they are on autopilot. Only one exception was shown to resisting Edo Tensei and that was Hanzo, which was only allowed because it was a part of his body/a move he could use to commit suicide and Kabuto found out to late.
> ...


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2014)

So if I'm reading this correctly they have knowledge of Amaterasu and are attempting to defend against 1 shot of it.

With knowledge we've seen Sasuke and Killer B, be able to throw Shuriken/Swords at Itachi before he release the Jutsu. In Sasuke's case this outright interrupted the Jutsu; in B's Case his blade got Shinra Tensei'd away by Nagato preventing it from interrupting Itachi's attempt. We also saw Hebi-Sasuke prempt it with Shunshin and evade long enough to utilize another Jutsu to escape it (Oral-Rebirth). 

Given this the list of people w/ knowledge who can set up a defense is fairly lengthy:

- Kakuzu could pre-empt it with an elemental blast blocking LOS; though even if Kakuzu is hit he can extend his tendrils out pushing the flames away from his heart and than simply severer them.  

- Mei could preempt it by blocking LOS w/ Demonic/Acid Mist or Massive Water Dragon

- Yondaime Kazekage blocks LOS with Gold Dust Wall (or Tsunami)

- Hebi Sasuke as he did in the manga Kuchiyose Shuriken or high-speed Shunshin into Oral Rebirth

- Ei obviously dodges it with Shunshin

- Sandaime Raikage dodges it with Shunshin or LOS blocks with Kurokaminari

- Sasori has a built in LOS block via Hiroku. If he's outside Hiroku he can LOS block with Satetsu, Poison-Gas cloud, mass puppets, or heart container swap

- Mu preempts with Invisibility

- Mizukage preempts with Suika no Jutsu, so when he's hid he can shed that part of his body as liquid (Clam Mist may also work). Suigetsu should also be able to do the same

- Onoki Preempts it with Iwabushin

- B Preempts it by interrupting it with throw weapon, dodging it with V1, shielding it with V2, or Kwarimi

- Orochimaru preempts it with Kuchiyose Roshomon or Mandara no Jin to block LOS; or uses Oral Rebirth

- Tsunade preempts it with Kuchiyose Katsuya to block LOS

- Naruto preempts it with Taijuu KB

- Kakashi preempts it with KB or Elemental Blast 

- Hiruzen preempts it with LOS blocking via Elemental Blast, Doton Wall, or KB

- Gai dodges with Gates or LOS blocks with MP/AT

- Jiriaya preempts it with Kuchiyose Toad (if he's cruel enough to do so) or Elemental Blast (Yomi Numa may also disrupt it. Jiriaya becoming one with a Shadow to avoid it would also work (if their is a shadow around to make use of). Sennin Modo Jiriaya has more options.

- Gaara preempts it with Sand Wall to block LOS, Suna Tama, etc...

- Hanzo preempts it with Poison Cloud or Kuchiyose Ibusei to block LOS

- Yagura preempts it with V2 or Mirror

- Sakura preempts it with Kuchiyose Katsuya

- MS Sasuke preempts it with Susano'o LOS blockage

- Minato and Tobirama FTG troll it

- Nagato preempts it with Fujutsu Kyuuin, so does HG Realm

- Animal Realm preempts it with Kuchiyose Any Massive Animal

- Deva ST's it off himself

- Shisui probably dodges it, preempts it with Susano'o (if you believe the game), or preempts it with Koto

- Danzo Izanagi or Koto

- Obito Kamui or Izanagi

- Madara Susano'o, Elemental Blast, Kuchiyose Kyuubi; any higher stages than EMS have even more counters

- Hashirama preempts it with Mokuton LOS blockage or Mokuton clone. He could also push it off his body with Mokuton (Yamato and Spiral could do the same).

- Kushina and Mito Uzamaki Chain LOS Blockage (Karin might be able to do the same depending on how quickly she can pull out the chains)

- Ashura blocks LOS w/ Aura

-  Indra w/ Susano'o

- Juubi Jins, Rikudo, etc... go w/o saying

- Anyone can defend it with Deus Ex Machina Log Kwarimi

Might be forgetting some. The list obviously goes down a decent amount if they don't have knowledge and successive shots as well as Itachi's strategy when utilizing shots is considered.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 16, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> *Dodge*:
> Gai (8th Gate)
> KCM Naruto (and up)
> V2 Ei
> ...



This pretty much sm naruto may be able to block it, but only at a distance


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## Rocky (Jun 16, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Raikage got hit because he was facing a multitude of people, and Fuuton users are ranged attackers. He did not let himself get hit, there is no backing for this.



He was literally standing there in Base when he was hit. To me, that isn't "fighting back."



> There is also the option that because Nagato couldn't recover he couldn't use jutsu to escape the flames, and Kabuto being a third part source could simply take control and ST the flames off.



That makes no sense. Kabuto taking control of Nagato has nothing to do with Nagato's _physical_ ability to remove the flames.


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## ueharakk (Jun 16, 2014)

^^^^
maybe this part where *the seven swordsmen literally just stood there and let themselves get stabbed and blown up* would convince DW?


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 16, 2014)

I am going to assume this is in Ei's exact situation, so same distance and knowledge and preparedness and they have to react the very instant Amaterasu is used and cannot pre-empt it. In that circumstance, Orochimaru should be able to use Orochi Kawarami before he is totally consumed. Kabuto should be able to do the same. Gai with seven or more gates. Kakashi should be able to warp the flames before he is badly burned. Sasuke in Hebi form could use Orochi Kawarami, or after gaining the Mangekyo could deactivate the flames or block with Susano'o or currently could dodge or teleport. KCM+ Naruto could dodge it or in his current form block it with his black staffs. Hasharima should be able to dodge it in sage mode. Tobirama could teleport. Minato could teleport or dodge it in KCM or SM mode. Danzo could survive with Izanagi. Kisamehada could absorb it. Itachi could deactivate it or block with Susano'o. Obito could phase, or warp it, survive with Izanagi, absorb it, repel it, block with Gedou Dama, or dodge it in Juubi mode. Nagato could absorb it or repel it. Madara could block with Susano'o or Gedou Dama, deactivate it, absorb it, warp it, repel it, survive with Izanagi, replace with a shadow self, dodge it in sage or Juubi mode, all dependent on what mode he is in. Kurama could chakra repel it. Kirabi can survive with a tentacle clone while in Bijuu mode. Ei can dodge it. The Juubi can chakra repel it, detach it, or dodge it. Muu can split to survive it. Black Zetsu can split to survive it. Kaguya via any one of a million methods and I won't bother with her children and grandchildren because while they obviously could do something they haven't been shown in real battle yet. I'm probably forgetting some people but that's good enough. 





ueharakk said:


> ^^^^
> maybe this part where *the seven swordsmen literally just stood there and let themselves get stabbed and blown up* would convince DW?



Are we sure they did? It kinda looks like they were deflecting. But in any case, Kabuto was personally controlling all the fighters on that field. You can see it in their eyes. And how none of them spoke, and how at the very least he had controlled Zabuza and the Kekkei Genkai users before summoning the rest of the Swordsmen. 


Rocky said:


> They aren't always fighting back. This is why Sandaime Raikage stood there and let the alliance try and wind slice him to death. It's also why Itachi was able to back of from B and use Koto Amatsukami in an attempt to break out of Kabuto's control, rather than being forced to continue to engage B.



Uh, no, there were dead shinobi around the Raikage which means he was fighting shinobi while others attacked him from a distance, which is why he was hit. He had no need to do anything more than that because while they are compelled to do something to defend themselves, what is up to them, and the Raikage had no interest in doing anything more than the minimal compulsion demanded of him and it didn't demand anything more in that instance because that level of attack was no good against him. 

And Itachi withdrew from Kirabi because had that option. The compulsion doesn't demand they constantly fight them at close range. They can choose their actions as long as those actions involve continuing to fight. Itachi chose to withdraw and use Amaterasu since that was a course of action that was within the range of actions the compulsion would allow (in fact, it was more useful than trying to fight Kirabi's seven sword distance at close quarters) and also was a move that he hoped would bring out Koto Amatasukami. He didn't use Koto, btw, he took a course of action that he hoped would trigger it. Of course he wasn't even sure what would happen, since he hadn't planned on Edo resurrection and perhaps he didn't know whether it would register those fake eyes. After all, Madara couldn't summon and use Gedo Mazo until he gained his original Rinnegan.


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## ueharakk (Jun 16, 2014)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Are we sure they did? It kinda looks like they were deflecting. But in any case, Kabuto was personally controlling all the fighters on that field. You can see it in their eyes. And how none of them spoke, and how at the very least he had controlled Zabuza and the Kekkei Genkai users before summoning the rest of the Swordsmen.


I am 'pretty sure' that you know as well as i do that at the end of pretty much any argument, we can't be literally 100% sure about anything.

but the evidence:
1) *none of the swordsmen move when all this goes on*
2) *swordsmen standing in the exact same position, pose, and order as they were before being hit by the kunai*
3) *we see tons of edo papers flying in the air (middle right and left panel)*
4) the SA fodder says "none of our attacks are working", then "how do you fight opponents like that....especially when they are the seven swordsmen..." and to which another responds "we stop the technique by either sealing their souls or binding their movements".  Thus the entire context of that conversation was that their attacks were landing, but their opponents were edo tenseis who just recovered.  
5) *we see mangetsu recovering from damage here*

I'm pretty sure that the combined most powerful generation of the seven swordsman, and especially mangetsu would not have been butchered by a kunai/shuriken spray by the SA.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 16, 2014)

Ok, good, that's some evidence. I simply wasn't sure but that's a good enough case. Still doesn't really touch on the ultimate point though, since the Seven Swordsmen were at that time being directly controlled by Kabuto. Why he allowed them to get hit, I am not sure. Perhaps to demoralize his opponents.


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## Dr. White (Jun 16, 2014)

> ueharakk said:
> 
> 
> > I am 'pretty sure' that you know as well as i do that at the end of pretty much any argument, we can't be literally 100% sure about anything.
> ...


That is some extremely weak evidence there.
That was literally at the beginning of the fight. There are so many circumstances that go against that anyway:
-None of the Swordsman barring Zabuza* had any reason* to stand their and get hit (which is the argument used for the Nagato case.). The Mist is a particularly* blodlusted village,* and they had been dead for a long time. The first thing they see after stepping out of a coffin is a* shitload of other countries ninja blasting jutsu/weapons at them*, and you are telling me for some odd reason that if they were activated for autopilot (like Kabuto had Nagato/Itachi on) they just sat there? Highly doubt that. Wouldn't it be more likely that they were *not activated* at that particular point(similar to Itachi/Nagato were when talking to Bee/Naruto), considering: None of them had their swords, none of them moved for a bit, and the biggest kicker, the *fact that they all immediately after getting their swords attacked?* 
-Also, pending on what they knew at that point in time, they might just not have given a fuck. They obviously knew they were dead and were about to summon their swords. It is very possible they or Kabuto took advantage (which we saw multiple time in the war) of their non livingness. 

The argument that edo's can will themeselves to physically get hit, or go against Kabuto's orders pending some intervention (e.g Koto) is not based off anything in this manga barring people like Hashi/Madara who can just laugh at Orochimaru (whether it bee from chakra level or counter jutsu). For example Trollkage was there for a very long time as the shinobi alliance tried to kill him with weapons. He just sat there in the jutsu like he would IC, and they were begging him to allow them to hit them. The fact that he summoned the clam, and didn't reveal himself pretty much say alot on how much control edo's had.


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## ueharakk (Jun 16, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> That was literally at the beginning of the fight.


that shouldn't matter



Dr. White said:


> There are so many circumstances that go against that anyway:
> -None of the Swordsman barring Zabuza* had any reason* to stand their and get hit (which is the argument used for the Nagato case.). The Mist is a particularly* blodlusted village,* and they had been dead for a long time. The first thing they see after stepping out of a coffin is a* shitload of other countries ninja blasting jutsu/weapons at them*, and you are telling me for some odd reason that if they were activated for autopilot (like Kabuto had Nagato/Itachi on) they just sat there? Highly doubt that. Wouldn't it be more likely that they were *not activated* at that particular point(similar to Itachi/Nagato were when talking to Bee/Naruto), considering: None of them had their swords, none of them moved for a bit, and the biggest kicker, the *fact that they all immediately after getting their swords attacked?*


Activated for autopilot or not, they along with zabuza who had been fighting and was on autopilot just stood there and took the rain of weapons.  It doesn't matter how plausible you think them doing that would be, it actually happened in the manga, so you have to deal with that and come up with some kind of argument that takes that into account without conceding the overall argument.



Dr. White said:


> -Also, pending on what they knew at that point in time, they might just not have given a fuck. They obviously knew they were dead and were about to summon their swords. It is very possible they or Kabuto took advantage (which we saw multiple time in the war) of their non livingness.


Um, if they are capable of willing themselves to just stand there and take the rain, then that obviously means edo tenseis are capable of just disobeying orders or just standing there and letting themselves get hit.

However it's more likely than not that they were in full puppet mode the moment they left the coffins as they speak no words throughout their entire encounter.  You can also tell they were edos under puppet mode as *the color of their eyes differ* from *when they aren't under that level of control.*



Dr. White said:


> The argument that edo's can will themeselves to physically get hit, or go against Kabuto's orders pending some intervention (e.g Koto) is not based off anything in this manga barring people like Hashi/Madara who can just laugh at Orochimaru (whether it bee from chakra level or counter jutsu). For example Trollkage was there for a very long time as the shinobi alliance tried to kill him with weapons. He just sat there in the jutsu like he would IC, and they were begging him to allow them to hit them. The fact that he summoned the clam, and didn't reveal himself pretty much say alot on how much control edo's had.


Did you ever hear of a ninja called Hanzou?  He not only disobeyed Kabuto's orders, but he went one step further than letting himself get hit *by soloing himself.*

*Even people like Haku and Zabuza were able to resist being put in full puppet mode.*


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## Dr. White (Jun 16, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> that shouldn't matter


Yes t should because they were being introduced and Kishi was just trying to highlight that they are edo's and will be much harder to defeat, hence why random fodder ninja #492 points it out right after the rain shit down on them. Literary context.




> Activated for autopilot or not, they along with zabuza who had been fighting and was on autopilot just stood there and took the rain of weapons.  It doesn't matter how plausible you think them doing that would be, it actually happened in the manga, so you have to deal with that and come up with some kind of argument that takes that into account without conceding the overall argument.


There are levels to this Ueh. Kabuto can simply make them roam free, or he could point them towards a specific location. In travel mode they aren't neccassarily aggressive hence why Itachi and Nagato could simply just walk and talk with bee in the begining. Then Kabuto activated them which made them want to fight, call this V2 for argument sake. Now the ninja are on pure physical reactions. They do what their body did before they died. (e.g Itachi using genjutsu, Pain using Animal to cover for mobility problems). When under this "V2 form" if you will shinobi simply cannot fight back. Then there is the final "V3 form" in which the eyes are darkened and Kabuto controls the character with a PS3 controller. 





> Um, if they are capable of willing themselves to just stand there and take the rain, then that obviously means edo tenseis are capable of just disobeying orders or just standing there and letting themselves get hit.


Well it is clear they can't directly disobey orders (with exceptions like Hashi/Madz) I was just saying they could have for concession sake. I personally think they weren't activated or Kabuto didn't care, but it is anyone's call. I think the evidence leads to the latter.



> However it's more likely than not that they were in full puppet mode the moment they left the coffins as they speak no words throughout their entire encounter.  You can also tell they were edos under puppet mode as *the color of their eyes differ* from *when they aren't under that level of control.*


If they are under full control than there reflexes no longer matter, and it is simply up to Kabuto's leisure whether to dodge or not. I am speaking particularly about auto pilot mode.




> Did you ever hear of a ninja called Hanzou?  He not only disobeyed Kabuto's orders, but he went one step further than letting himself get hit *by soloing himself.*


Hanzo did not allow himself to get hit by another person is my point. Also he didn't do anything explicitly against his orders. First off we have seen that a touching moment with close ones from the past life frees a persons soul bond to a certain extent (Sai's bro went to heaven prematurly, Zabuza resisted full contract in order to talk to Kakashi, and of course the hanzo case), but it still doesn't allow them to get hit by another person or hold back. Let's look explictly at the times when the soul's bond was weakened. 

-Sai's bro just was released from his body immediately after the touching moment. But he didn't release himself on purpose (like Madara did) it seemed to be the power of love breaking it. 

-Zabuza just resisted and gained consciousness and spoke. He was still in demon aura form (his strongest form) and told kakashi not to hold back. It is extremely clear even before this that edo's can disagree with kabuto mentally, but can do nothing to change so once being semi, or fully controled by him.

-Lastly Hanzo. Hanzo essentially cheated his way to getting out scott free. He knew that if he could cut his poison sac out his body would go numb and then eventually die out. This was just a unique perk he had to his body. Edo's can injure themselves, or else they wouldn't be able to summon. IIRC Kabuto didn't know about it, therefore could not have specificly ordered him to do it. The whole fact that Kishi pointed it out was him implying Kabuto could have countered if he had known.



> *Even people like Haku and Zabuza were able to resist being put in full puppet mode.*


to talk? that's cool. Zabuza still didn't let Kakashi hit him, nor did Nagato let Itachi.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 16, 2014)

Actually, Hanzo didn't disobey Kabuto's orders, although it appeared that way. He actually _tricked_ the talisman. Rupturing his belly sack was a valid form of attack which Edos under automatic control can choose since Edos would heal from that damage and thus was not seppuku (which is why Kabuto thought he was disobeying the automatic commands, but Deidara already proved that self harming attacks are quite fine). Ordinarily, it would have been quite effective since all within the substantial range would have been consumed by the highly lethal poison and Hanzo would have been briefly paralyzed but would have recovered and healed the self made damage. But he utilized the one function Kabuto's auto commands couldn't control-speech-to give them fair warning so they could get away, and tricked the talisman by using the flexibility of attack options that the Edos had to choose an attack within it's range of accepted attacks but which had an alternate agenda. Kabuto's confusion was based around his lack of understanding of what was going on, which is why Hanzo communicated his plan to Mifune using inside knowledge from their previous fight that didn't explicitly reference what he was doing so that Kabuto couldn't pre-empt him.


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## Dr. White (Jun 16, 2014)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Actually, Hanzo didn't disobey Kabuto's orders, although it appeared that way. He actually _tricked_ the talisman. Rupturing his belly sack was a valid form of attack which Edos under automatic control can choose since Edos would heal from that damage and thus was not seppuku (which is why Kabuto thought he was disobeying the automatic commands, but Deidara already proved that self harming attacks are quite fine). Ordinarily, it would have been quite effective since all within the substantial range would have been consumed by the highly lethal poison and Hanzo would have been briefly paralyzed but would have recovered and healed the self made damage. But he utilized the one function Kabuto's auto commands couldn't control-speech-to give them fair warning so they could get away, and tricked the talisman by using the flexibility of attack options that the Edos had to choose an attack within it's range of accepted attacks but which had an alternate agenda.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2014)

Sandaime Raikage was hit because the attacks from thousands of Shinobi covered such a great AOE he couldn't evade them. It's the same for the seven-mist swordsmen, there was no point in doing anything as there was no way to escape the attacks of thousands of shinobi in that instance. No matter how fast you are, if the AOE is great enough your not escaping. Its the same reason Ei could not escape the roof collapsing from Sasuke's S2 Susano'o attack. The same reason there was nothing for Mu, Mizukage, and Sandaime-Raikage to do when Gaara used such a large AOE Sand-Tsunami. Etc....

However that does not translate to Sandaime-Raikage being unable to evade Amaterasu. Amaterasu is a totally different type of attack; a precision strike. Sandaime only needs to move out of the casters LOS and more specifically the point they are focusing on generating the flames to evaded it. Hebi-Sasuke evaded the initial Amaterasu burst, so there is no reason why the Sandaime-Raikage shouldn't be capable of the same.


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## RAGING BONER (Jun 16, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> RM/BM/BSM/Rikudo Naruto
> EMS/Rikudo Sasuke
> Ei
> Sandaime Raikage
> ...



you're out your fucking mind

only about a handful are "confirmed" and i'll give you the mythical ones...but there's a lot of garbage in that list.

first to stand out are all the bijuu; NONE are dodging or defending. Obito isnt either, his phasing was shown to not work as he caught fire, shrieked in pain then came back with no damage (evidence of Izanagi).
Sandaime raikage? no evidence of insane speed like his son and his insane durability wont last him without a sealer nearby. Kisame? lol


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## Dr. White (Jun 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> snip


I agree that is a factor as well, but we are arguing if edo's can allow themselves to get hit or not.

On your topic, I believe Ei needed V2 to evade KCM Naruto. V2 Ei > his dad's V1 shroud, so he def isn't immune to Amaterasu.


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## ueharakk (Jun 16, 2014)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Actually, Hanzo didn't disobey Kabuto's orders, although it appeared that way. He actually _tricked_ the talisman. Rupturing his belly sack was a valid form of attack which Edos under automatic control can choose since Edos would heal from that damage and thus was not seppuku (which is why Kabuto thought he was disobeying the automatic commands, but Deidara already proved that self harming attacks are quite fine). Ordinarily, it would have been quite effective since all within the substantial range would have been consumed by the highly lethal poison and Hanzo would have been briefly paralyzed but would have recovered and healed the self made damage. But he utilized the one function Kabuto's auto commands couldn't control-speech-to give them fair warning so they could get away, and tricked the talisman by using the flexibility of attack options that the Edos had to choose an attack within it's range of accepted attacks but which had an alternate agenda.



But Kabuto explicitly states 'he's contradicting the talisman's orders' not 'he tricked the talisman'.

And the edos can't just pick what attacks they want to use, they are programmed to respond appropriately for each situation.  Puncturing his stomach with his mask off while everyone was out of range of the poison cloud is absolutely not an appropriate response to the situation.  

If the edos could actually pick the attacks, then by that logic, all the 'good guys' who were edo tenseid would be trying to attack non-vital parts of the opponents with their weakest stuff like punches, kicks, or kunai, or double edged techniques that put them at great risk of being sealed rather than using stuff like jinton, gentle fist, and all their most powerful named techniques.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I agree that is a factor as well, but we are arguing if edo's can allow themselves to get hit or not.
> 
> On your topic, I believe Ei needed V2 to evade KCM Naruto. V2 Ei > his dad's V1 shroud, so he def isn't immune to Amaterasu.


I don't see what your getting at? What does KCM-Naruto have to do with anything, other than the fact that he hyped Sandaime-Raikage's speed?

Ei's R2-Shunshin evaded Amaterasu, that's what we know. However nothing says the minimum requirement to evade Amaterasu is Ei's R2-Shunshin speed. In-fact we've seen someone slower than Ei's R2-Shunshin evade Amaterasu; Hebi-Sasuke. Forcing Itachi to chase Hebi-Sasuke down with the flames to eventually catch him, but only after Hebi-Sasuke had a chance to use another Jutsu (Oral-Rebirth). Sandaime-Raikage is almost certainly quicker to react than Hebi-Sasuke with his Raiton no Yoroi and while we never saw his Shunshin the fact that even his non-Shunshin speed was hyped by KCM-Naruto, should reflect that his Shunshin is at the very least as fast as Hebi-Sasuke's, if not faster. So you have someone that will react quicker than Sasuke with at least the same speed (likely faster); why wouldn't said person be able to evade the initial burst of Amaterasu like Hebi-Sasuke?

This is further supported by the fact that we saw Hebi-Sasuke preempt it with a thrown Shuriken and B preempt it with a thrown sword. Surely Sandaime-Raikage can use Shunshin faster than it takes those 2 to throw a Shuriken/Sword and for the sword to travel towards Itachi over a fair amount of distance (especially in the case of B). Also supported by crow being able to come out of Naruto's mouth and cast Koto before Amaterasu went off. Kabuto reacting to Sasuke's usage of Amaterasu, and he's not god fast as Itachi was able to keep up with him; the same Itachi that Hebi-Sasuke and Kakashi were keeping up with. Juubito being able to extend his black element in-front of him before Amaterasu was cast, and no the extension of the black element can't be that fast as Old/Edo Hiruzen was able to partially dodge said extension  with his Base-speed. Hachibi being able to put a tentacle in-front of himself before the flames ignited, and Hachibi's tentacle motion isn't that fast, as Base-Sasuke w/o Sharingan reacted to it at the last second, cutting away a tentacle w/ Chidori Eisou to save Karin.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 16, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> But Kabuto explicitly states 'he's contradicting the talisman's orders' not 'he tricked the talisman'.
> 
> And the edos can't just pick what attacks they want to use, they are programmed to respond appropriately for each situation.  Puncturing his stomach with his mask off while everyone was out of range of the poison cloud is absolutely not an appropriate response to the situation.
> 
> If the edos could actually pick the attacks, then by that logic, all the 'good guys' who were edo tenseid would be trying to attack non-vital parts of the opponents with their weakest stuff like punches, kicks, or kunai, or double edged techniques that put them at great risk of being sealed rather than using stuff like jinton, gentle fist, and all their most powerful named techniques.



Actually Kabuto _wondered_ if he was contradicting orders from the talisman. He used a question. He didn't know and was confused what was happening.  

Edos are allowed to pick their attacks provided what they are picking is effective. This is why Kabuto allowed the flexibility in his talisman that Orochimaru did not originally have to begin with. There can be many appropriate responses to a situation and Kabuto was recognizing that his understanding of the Edo's capabilities wasn't great enough to necessarily respond the best way, so there is no way his talisman could have automatically commanded the best response, because that would require Kabuto to know the best response, or for the Edo themselves to be absolute sure of the best response. Evidently, the talisman allows the Edos free reign provided a) they are responding the situation in a manner that could do as much damage to the enemy as possible and b) aren't fighting each other (and presumably Kabuto). And the only reason why it wasn't an appropriate attack was because he warned them, which was not something that the talisman could control. And the poison spreads out over time which is why Hanzo warned them to tread carefully despite the distance .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 16, 2014)

Anyone who has A's level of reaction speed and body speed or on par jutsu activation speed.

Feat-wise, there are a few people who can do it. A, obviously, BM Naruto and above(and BM Minato), current Sauce, Juudara, Kaguya, 8 Gated Gai.

Although going by hype, I'd include guys like base Minato, Tobirama and Obito too.


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## ueharakk (Jun 16, 2014)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Actually Kabuto _wondered_ if he was contradicting orders from the talisman. He used a question. He didn't know and was confused what was happening.


Then that just means he was very surprised that Hanzou did contradict the talisman, not that he didn't know what happened.  Plus the Kishi makes people state blatant things like that in order to allow the readers intel on what's going on.  If he had tricked the talisman, he would have said 'he tricked the talisman' or something indicating that he did so.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> Edos are allowed to pick their attacks provided what they are picking is effective. This is why Kabuto allowed the flexibility in his talisman that Orochimaru did not originally have to begin with. There can be many appropriate responses to a situation and Kabuto was recognizing that his understanding of the Edo's capabilities wasn't great enough to necessarily respond the best way, so there is no way his talisman could have automatically commanded the best response, because that would require Kabuto to know the best response, or for the Edo themselves to be absolute sure of the best response. Evidently, the talisman allows the Edos free reign provided a) they are responding the situation in a manner that could do as much damage to the enemy as possible and b) aren't fighting each other (and presumably Kabuto).


Kabuto allowed personalities to remain in tact in order to emotionally stir up the alliance, not because the people who don't want to fight would fight better with minds than without minds.
His talismans don't have to respond in the best way or command the best response in order to prevent his edos from doing things like what hanzou did.  
a would contradict what happened in the manga with hanzou and mifune.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> And the only reason why it wasn't an appropriate attack was because he warned them, which was not something that the talisman could control. And the poison spreads out over time which is why Hanzo warned them to tread carefully despite the distance .


The talisman can't control his warning, but it definitely can control what he does in response to the situation.  He warned them, thus they stayed far away from him.  By your logic, once everyone is far away, the talisman wouldn't have allowed him to hit himself since the situation created by hanzou's warning would have rendered his attack completely useless offensively and he would have been wide open to getting sealed.


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## Jagger (Jun 16, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> All the people I listed would be capable of naturally reacting to it at point blank range.Amaterasu isnt really that fast.


Wait, what? Despite you mentioned Nagato as well? I don't know if you're forgetting, but Amaterasu is quite fast. 

It just happens the likes of V2 A and anyone with a superior speed can just avoid the technique, but I don't see how Nagato could dodge Amaterasu after being fired at a point-blank range, not even Tendo has shown that kind of speed.


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## Bonly (Jun 16, 2014)

Gai 
Naruto
Sasuke 
A
Minato 
Madara
Minato
Nagato
Tobi
Hashirama
Obito 

Those are the first that comes to mind


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## Agiel (Jun 17, 2014)

Anyone with 4 or greater in speed can physically dodge it but that doesn't really help unless they know it's coming. People hype this technique way too much, they tend to forget that Hebi Sasuke managed to freaking outrun it for a while, it's not an instantaneous technique.

How many times has using it actually worked and not been countered in some way? Zetsus nonwithstanding.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 17, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Then that just means he was very surprised that Hanzou did contradict the talisman, not that he didn't know what happened.  Plus the Kishi makes people state blatant things like that in order to allow the readers intel on what's going on.  If he had tricked the talisman, he would have said 'he tricked the talisman' or something indicating that he did so.
> 
> 
> Kabuto allowed personalities to remain in tact in order to emotionally stir up the alliance, not because the people who don't want to fight would fight better with minds than without minds.
> ...



That's just your speculation about Kishi's intent. I don't see how it has any weight. 

That wouldn't explain why he let Deidara operate freely when he first used him. In fact if memory served that was even what he said that his purpose was there. 

But the gas was still spreading out so the poison would have worked even from that range if he hadn't been sealed first. I don't think the commands automatically register exactly how appropriate a move is to a situation they merely register "oh, it's a potentially lethal attack that could hypothetically work, it's allowed".


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## Dr. White (Jun 17, 2014)

Agiel said:


> Anyone with 4 or greater in speed can physically dodge it but that doesn't really help unless they know it's coming. People hype this technique way too much, they tend to forget that Hebi Sasuke managed to freaking outrun it for a while, it's not an instantaneous technique.
> 
> How many times has using it actually worked and not been countered in some way? Zetsus nonwithstanding.



Kurenai, Asuma, Base Gai, Kakashi, and Kiba are not dodging Ama. 

Itachi was specifically stated to not have been trying to kill Sasuke. He was only trying to draw Oro's powers out, which is why we see him explicitly and accurately aim at his Cursed mark wing. Itachi could have crisped him had he been trying to kill him.

-It burnt through Jiraiya's unescapable Toad prison.
-It would have soloed Danzo without Izanagi
-It made the Hachibi cry like a bitch.
-It completely wrecked Nagato's Cerberus who just survived an FRS to the dome.

Should I keep going?


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## Agiel (Jun 17, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Kurenai, Asuma, Base Gai, Kakashi, and Kiba are not dodging Ama.
> 
> Itachi was specifically stated to not have been trying to kill Sasuke. He was only trying to draw Oro's powers out, which is why we see him explicitly and accurately aim at his Cursed mark wing. Itachi could have crisped him had he been trying to kill him.
> 
> ...


True but only because they can't see it coming. Although, unless it's to the head they can still avoid it with Strip no Jutsu, it worked for that Samurai.

He still set Sasuke on fire without specifically knowing that he had Oral-Rebirth.

-Jiraiyas Prison was a stationary target, I wasn't arguing against the power of the technique but the speed of it.
-I really doubt that Danzo has a 4 in speed, he's a feckin old codger. He probably had 3 like Hiruzen.
-Hachibi _cried like a bitch_ so he could go on vacation.
-Because Nagato's Cerberus was designed to get hit, he doesn't dodge anything.

Yes keep going, you haven't countered any of my points. I'm still unsatisfied with your answers.


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## Dr. White (Jun 17, 2014)

Agiel said:


> True but only because they can't see it coming. Although, unless it's to the head they can still avoid it with Strip no Jutsu, it worked for that Samurai.


No. They don't have the speed to avoid it all. It doesn't travel through air so no one "see's it coming". People can sense it, or infer it from his eye bleeding. Ei barely escaped by the skin of his teeth in V2. Anyone not on that level can't physically dodge it. You said any with a 4 or over can implying there speed was enough.

Kankarou an extremely dexterous puppet user, took care of the samurai very quickly and saved his life. The samurai would have been dead without him. Without chakra strings, or being on Madara's physical/dexterity level (the only person to actively outstrip ama)



> He still set Sasuke on fire without specifically knowing that he had Oral-Rebirth.


Yep because he knew of Orochimaru's power and hypothisized he was inside sasuke. He knew Oro wouldn't let Sasuke die, and this is the only reason Itachi used MS, per canon. Sasuke felt the same way you did "He wasn't tanking the fight, he used MS on me" , tobi straight up told Sauce he would have 100% got scraped by Itachi and that MS was only to draw out Orochimaru. I



> -Jiraiyas Prison was a stationary target, I wasn't arguing against the power of the technique but the speed of it.


Jiraiaya was surprised because the toad could breathe fire itself, and the walls were closing in on them very fast, ama incincerated the very tough frog throat in maybe a second or two.




> -Hachibi _cried like a bitch_ so he could go on vacation.


No he had no reason to act like he was in pain. He fully intended on killing them hence why he shot a bjuudama at them.

Bee just didn't reappear after he subsitituted amaterasu after sasuke cut his tentacle off to save karin. He was extremely affected by amaterasu.



> -Because Nagato's Cerberus was designed to get hit, he doesn't dodge anything.


Okay my point is that it just took a cell destroying blockbuster, and was able to regenrate yet one ama from Itachi ended it. 



> Yes keep going, you haven't countered any of my points. I'm still unsatisfied with your answers.


Yes I have lol.


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## Agiel (Jun 17, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> No. They don't have the speed to avoid it all. It doesn't travel through air so no one "see's it coming". People can sense it, or infer it from his eye bleeding. Ei barely escaped by the skin of his teeth in V2. Anyone not on that level can't physically dodge it. You said any with a 4 or over can implying there speed was enough.


 People can't sense it, no one except sensors or doujutsu users have sensed it and if Hebi Sasuke can dodge it then so can they. They can't really infer it from eye bleeding either since if they look him in the eyes they get caught in a Tsukuyomi.



Dr. White said:


> Kankarou an extremely dexterous puppet user, took care of the samurai very quickly and saved his life. The samurai would have been dead without him. Without chakra strings, or being on Madara's physical/dexterity level (the only person to actively outstrip ama)


 Temari cut the armour off and Kankuro removed it with his puppet strings, they were fast but not extremely fast. If the flames burned as quickly as you think then Karin would have never have survived being exposed to them.




Dr. White said:


> Yep because he knew of Orochimaru's power and hypothisized he was inside sasuke. He knew Oro wouldn't let Sasuke die, and this is the only reason Itachi used MS, per canon. Sasuke felt the same way you did "He wasn't tanking the fight, he used MS on me" , tobi straight up told Sauce he would have 100% got scraped by Itachi and that MS was only to draw out Orochimaru. I


My point is, why would he have wasted chakra deliberately missing Sasuke to begin with. Your arguement was that he did it to spare Sasuke but that doesn't hold up with the fact that he still set him on fire. Why would he waste chakra pretending to miss Sasuke when he knew he might have to fight Orochimaru.

Also he set his brother on fire, due to a hypothesis?


Dr. White said:


> Jiraiaya was surprised because the toad could breathe fire itself, and the walls were closing in on them very fast, ama incincerated the very tough frog throat in maybe a second or two.


Maybe you should reread my response, I said I wasn't arguing against it's power but rather the speed of it.


Dr. White said:


> No he had no reason to act like he was in pain. He fully intended on killing them hence why he shot a bjuudama at them.
> 
> Bee just didn't reappear after he subsitituted amaterasu after sasuke cut his tentacle off to save karin. He was extremely affected by amaterasu.


He was too extremely affected by Amaterasu, had it really been as painful as he made it out to be we would have seen a greater reaction from A when it happened to him.


Dr. White said:


> Okay my point is that it just took a cell destroying blockbuster, and was able to regenrate yet one ama from Itachi ended it.


 So what? That would be great if I had been arguing against the power of the technique but I was arguing about the speed of it.


Dr. White said:


> Yes I have lol.


 No you haven't, you've argued for it's power but you have yet to give speed feats. Do you not know the name of this thread?


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## Dr. White (Jun 17, 2014)

Agiel said:


> People can't sense it, no one except sensors or doujutsu users have sensed it and if Hebi Sasuke can dodge it then so can they.


No they can't. Hebi Sasuke is faster than all of them bar maybe base gai. Not only this but Hebi Sauce had extremely extenuating circumstances.
A.) Sasuke already knew about amaterasu and explicitly prepped for it.
B.) He literally saw Itachi burn away his katon before attempting to dodge it, meaning he had all that time to actively see Itachi using Amaterasu on something other than him, which most people don't get.
C.) Itachi was trying to aim his amaterasu at a very exact spot, and wasn't trying to kill him, besides this he still got hit.

You can't just ignore those circumstances and apply the feat to every with a decent *databook showing*. that is horrendous logic.



> Temari cut the armour off and Kankuro removed it with his puppet strings, they were fast but not extremely fast. If the flames burned as quickly as you think then Karin would have never have survived being exposed to them.


His body never made contact with him, if it his hot enough to burn katon jutsu, start thunderstorms, burn through Jiraiaya's toad etc, it's safe to assume it is freakin hot. 

My jiraiya example directly objects to the notion it doesn't burn hot or fast.



> My point is, why would he have wasted chakra deliberately missing Sasuke to begin with. Your arguement was that he did it to spare Sasuke but that doesn't hold up with the fact that he still set him on fire. Why would he waste chakra pretending to miss Sasuke when he knew he might have to fight Orochimaru.


He didn't Sasuke saw him use Amaterasu and a katon and was like "welp maybe I should split before that jutsu I prepped for soloes me" Itachi was trying to focus on a moving target which you can imagine is a bit tough especially when trying to aim accurately. 

Why would Itachi waste chakra? Uhm because he was planning on dying?

Itachi obviously had a decent amount of chakra left considering after using Ama, he could wip out Susano. He really wasn't worried about Orochimaru because he soloed him with a glance before and still had Totsuka waiting.



> Also he set his brother on fire, due to a hypothesis?


He obviously knew about Oro's powers simply by:
-growing up in Konoha and being in ANBU
-meeting him again in akatsuki

Not only this but as Tobi confirmed he knew Orochimaru was inside of Sasuke and that threatening his life would bring him out. This was a major part of Itachi's plan.



> Maybe you should reread my response, I said I wasn't arguing against it's power but rather the speed of it.


There is no speed, it doesn't travel like a projectile. There is a casting time speed which is negligible to anyone who isn't a top tier sensor, has dojutsu, or is V2 ei speed/reactions to get a defense up.




> He wasn't too extremely affected by Amaterasu, had it really been as painful as he made it out to be we would have seen a greater reaction from A when it happened to him.


Get out of here, he was literally screaming his ass off and trying to get the flames off with water. He went from going bjuu mode to rape them, into completely unable to do anything but thrash around. His thrashing just so happened to hit karin which caught her on fire/almost crushed her, sasuke cut bee's tentacle which allowed him to escape and leave a Kawabiri left behind. Bee surviving Amaterasu/escaping Akatsuki just so happened to coincide with him getting a vacation. 

Ei is irrelevant here. Ei's threshold is completely different than Bee's, and you are committing an equivocation fallacy here. Once again you aren't looking at circumstances and are making an illogical argument.
A.) Ei is the son of iron body Sandaime. He literally travalled at light speed in base and was fine, something Tsunade needed her yin seal for. 
B.) Ei was bloodlusted and was willing to do anything to kill Sasuke. So this added to his already Alpha personality, leads me to believe that it hurt he just didn't give a shit and can take damage. 
C.) I'm not sure you realized but Ei also then* voluntarily cut his freaking arm off without so much as a grimace or second thought.*

Accept the fact that Amaterasu royally raped Bee.


 So what? That would be great if I had been arguing against the power of the technique but I was arguing about the speed of it.


> No you haven't, you've argued for it's power but you have yet to give speed feats. Do you not know the name of this thread?


I'm arguing for both categories because you have made several claims regarding both.


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## Agiel (Jun 17, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> No they can't. Hebi Sasuke is faster than all of them bar maybe base gai. Not only this but Hebi Sauce had extremely extenuating circumstances.
> A.) Sasuke already knew about amaterasu and explicitly prepped for it.
> B.) He literally saw Itachi burn away his katon before attempting to dodge it, meaning he had all that time to actively see Itachi using Amaterasu on something other than him, which most people don't get.
> C.) Itachi was trying to aim his amaterasu at a very exact spot, and wasn't trying to kill him, besides this he still got hit.


The only one among them who's slower than Hebi Sasuke(4.5) is Kurenai(4), they all have equal or greater speed stats than him(4.5+).
A)I agree that foreknowledge is essential in dodging/countering Amaterasu
B) I explicitly stated that the only reason they couldn't dodge was because they wouldn't be able to see it coming
C)Itachi was trying to set Sasuke on fire, otherwise Sasuke would not have been hit. Sasuke was still able to evade to for several moments though.



Dr. White said:


> You can't just ignore those circumstances and apply the feat to every with a decent *databook showing*. that is horrendous logic.


 Well everyone else has so little screentime that you kind of have to use the databooks to get any sort of idea of their capabilities. Unless it has been directly contradicted in the manga, I will use the databooks.




Dr. White said:


> His body never made contact with him, if it his hot enough to burn katon jutsu, start thunderstorms, burn through Jiraiaya's toad etc, it's safe to assume it is freakin hot.
> 
> My jiraiya example directly objects to the notion it doesn't burn hot or fast.


 Hot enough to all of the above yet Karin somehow magically escapes unharmed.




Dr. White said:


> He didn't Sasuke saw him use Amaterasu and a katon and was like "welp maybe I should split before that jutsu I prepped for soloes me" Itachi was trying to focus on a moving target which you can imagine is a bit tough especially when trying to aim accurately.


 So what you're saying is that against moving targets Amaterasu is useless? If Itachi was expecting Sasuke to use Oral Rebirth why would he have to aim accurately?



Dr. White said:


> Why would Itachi waste chakra? Uhm because he was planning on dying?
> 
> Itachi obviously had a decent amount of chakra left considering after using Ama, he could wip out Susano. He really wasn't worried about Orochimaru because he soloed him with a glance before and still had Totsuka waiting.


 So Itachi was wasting chakra because he was planning on dying and he just expected Orochimaru the Sannin to go down in one hit? It's a bit arrogant don't you think? What if he'd had some sort of counter to Totsuka?




Dr. White said:


> He obviously knew about Oro's powers simply by:
> -growing up in Konoha and being in ANBU
> -meeting him again in akatsuki


Again the keyword here is Orochimarus Powers, how does he know that Sasuke has mastered Oro's techniques? Why would he risk his brothers life on that assumption




Dr. White said:


> Not only this but as Tobi confirmed he knew Orochimaru was inside of Sasuke and that threatening his life would bring him out. This was a major part of Itachi's plan.


 Literally everyone knows this, it's irrelevant.




Dr. White said:


> There is no speed, it doesn't travel like a projectile. There is a casting time speed which is negligible to anyone who isn't a top tier sensor, has dojutsu, or is V2 ei speed/reactions to get a defense up.


 But apparently not negliable to anyone who can run at a decent speed or use shunshin. I agree that they would still have to detect or predict it somehow but they don't need some sort of ultra speed to physically dodge it.





Dr. White said:


> Get out of here, he was literally screaming his ass off and trying to get the flames off with water. He went from going bjuu mode to rape them, into completely unable to do anything but thrash around. His thrashing just so happened to hit karin which caught her on fire/almost crushed her, sasuke cut bee's tentacle which allowed him to escape and leave a Kawabiri left behind. Bee surviving Amaterasu/escaping Akatsuki just so happened to coincide with him getting a vacation.


 And you don't find it suspecious that he never reacted that dramatically to pain after that battle.



Dr. White said:


> Ei is irrelevant here. Ei's threshold is completely different than Bee's, and you are committing an equivocation fallacy here. Once again you aren't looking at circumstances and are making an illogical argument.
> A.) Ei is the son of iron body Sandaime. He literally travalled at light speed in base and was fine, something Tsunade needed her yin seal for.
> B.) Ei was bloodlusted and was willing to do anything to kill Sasuke. So this added to his already Alpha personality, leads me to believe that it hurt he just didn't give a shit and can take damage.
> C.) I'm not sure you realized but Ei also then* voluntarily cut his freaking arm off without so much as a grimace or second thought.*


 A and B are partners, brothers in all but blood. It's not illogical to think they would have a similar threshold to pain.
A) The feats of the father do not appply to the son
B) Everyone in NV can take damage without grimacing
C) I'm not sure you realized but nobody in NV reacts realistically to pain, the overdramatic reaction to the technique leads me to believe he was faking it.



Dr. White said:


> Accept the fact that Amaterasu royally raped Bee.


 I would if Bee hadn't been chilling on a vactaion afterwards. It didn't even put him in the Hospital.




Dr. White said:


> I'm arguing for both categories because you have made several claims regarding both.


_Here's my original post on this thread, you're welcome to point me to my claims regarding it's power._


Agiel said:


> Anyone with 4 or greater in speed can physically dodge it but that doesn't really help unless they know it's coming. People hype this technique way too much, they tend to forget that Hebi Sasuke managed to freaking outrun it for a while, it's not an instantaneous technique.
> 
> How many times has using it actually worked and not been countered in some way? Zetsus nonwithstanding.


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## Dr. White (Jun 17, 2014)

Agiel said:


> The only one among them who's slower than Hebi Sasuke(4.5) is Kurenai(4), they all have equal or greater speed stats than him(4.5+).


No by manga feats and powerscaling they are all slower than him. When a character gets a feat we can determine their speed. Sasuke was one of the fastest characters up until Ei showed up and shit got crazy. If you believe Kurenai, Asuma, Base Gai or simply any ninja with a 4 in speed can accomplish his feats you are off the wagon.

You think Pt. 2 Kiba could blitz Diedara like Sasuke did?
You think Kiba could blitz Yamato, Pt. 2 Naruto and Sakura like he did?

you think Kiba, Kurenai, etc can keep up with Itachi, or Bee? the answer is no.

Databooks stats are important that they give us a general view of people who may not get spotlight, but you can't make an argument from that stat that uses the databook > Manga. It doesn't have to be explicitly contradicting the manga, as some just don't make any sense. Kurenai being anywhere as fast as Sasuke is just laughable. 

alternatively you are trying to apply some kindergarten A > B > C logic when it doesn't work like that. Not only are you not taking into account the circumstances, no one is going to start off seeing Itachi using ama prempting them to run. Sasuke knew he had to run and that is why he could momentarily outrun it.





> B) I explicitly stated that the only reason they couldn't dodge was because they wouldn't be able to see it coming


then your argument that anyone with Sasuke's speed (which you can't prove anyway) is flawed because the feat you are using as the standard involves him seeing amaterasu being used, having foreknowledge, and itachi not trying to kill him.



> C)Itachi was trying to set Sasuke on fire, otherwise Sasuke would not have been hit. Sasuke was still able to evade to for several moments though.


Yes but he was aiming for his cursed mark body. Itachi literally saw him use it to block his katon here, meaning he observed it didn't hurt sasuke majorly and was dispensable. Hence why we get a close up of his eyesight right here, and kishi later on in the story refers to the picture again when tobi tells him he only used MS to draw out Orochimaru and could have soloed young sasuke.

Once again he evaded because of multiple factors:
-Knowledge
-Seeing it used right before it came for him pre-empting him to move himself and giving him massive time to realize it was coming for him.
You can clearly see Sasuke move before Itachi cast the jutsu.
-Itachi was aiming for his wings not his actual body because that ran the risk of immediately killing Sasuke. Oral rebirth allowed him to shed before it spread to the head/mouth/heart, etc.
-You are forgetting he was using *CS1 * which enhances his speed.



> Well everyone else has so little screentime that you kind of have to use the databooks to get any sort of idea of their capabilities. Unless it has been directly contradicted in the manga, I will use the databooks.


you aren't just getting a general feel for their stats though you are using it as direct proof for direct character comparisons.  Saying something like Kurenai is fast enough not to get blitzed by sasuke because she is .5 under him in speed tier, is different than claiming they are the same speed, or that she can accomplish his feats, same with asuma, diedara (who sasuke blitzed  ), etc.





> Hot enough to all of the above yet Karin somehow magically escapes unharmed.


It's called literary context. Anytime Amaterasu is used offensively and connects it does the job. Vs Toad, Vs Bee, Vs Sasuke's fake body, vs Bee, vs Cerberus, vs Nagato, etc. 

Kishi clearly wasn't gonna kill karin but needed a plot device to have Bee escape by. Karin being a non fighter wa the best choice to have be the damsel in distress. She would have died no doubt had Sasuke not saved her almost immediately. Kishi was showing its effects on the bjuu, not karin. Also you forget she is a hardy uzumaki. Her cloak burned so obviously the fire was working, and it was enough to knock her unconscious IIRC.



> So what you're saying is that against moving targets Amaterasu is useless? If Itachi was expecting Sasuke to use Oral Rebirth why would he have to aim accurately?


If you can move faster than the person can focus on you yes. V2 Ei got out of Sasuke LOS before he could fully focus the attack and it then refocused on what was behind Ei (think of it like a digital camera.). Sasuke not only saw the jutsu used right before, but began running before Itachi's casted. Hence why he was caught on the run. If Itachi just walked up to him without revealing it, and used Ama sauce would have burned to a crisp and been forced to use oral rebirth if he even could.



> So Itachi was wasting chakra because he was planning on dying and he just expected Orochimaru the Sannin to go down in one hit? It's a bit arrogant don't you think? What if he'd had some sort of counter to Totsuka?


Itachi admitted he was arrogant and thought he could do it all himself. He specifically claims as Orochimaru comes out "So you've finally come out, meaning he explictly knew Orochimaru was inside of him and that Sasuke was using his power.




> Again the keyword here is Orochimarus Powers, how does he know that Sasuke has mastered Oro's techniques? Why would he risk his brothers life on that assumption


Because he knew Oro was in their and wasn't going to allow him or Sasuke to die. He knew Orochimaru was waiting inside of him waiting to take over.




> Literally everyone knows this, it's irrelevant.


No one that hadn't met sasuke from when he killed Oro could have known that  . Only the people who fought (obviously by experiencing it in combat), his allies like taka, and Itachi knew. The last time people from Konoha saw him Oro was next to him. You are mixing up cursed seals, with having orochimaru literally living in your body.




> But apparently not negliable to anyone who can run at a decent speed or use shunshin. I agree that they would still have to detect or predict it somehow but they don't need some sort of ultra speed to physically dodge it.


That level of speed is V2 Ei speeds, not Hebi freaking Sasuke levels. Unless V1 ei couldn't match the speeds sasuke was running out without even using shushin 





> And you don't find it suspecious that he never reacted that dramatically to pain after that battle.


He was on fucking fire, what do you expect? Being on fire is a different kind of pain constantly causing you pain, and damaging your body. Amaterasu being hotter, and way harder to put out. If it can freaking burn fire, I don't see how you don't know its power and heat.





> A and B are partners, brothers in all but blood. It's not illogical to think they would have a similar threshold to pain.
> A) The feats of the father do not appply to the son
> B) Everyone in NV can take damage without grimacing
> C) I'm not sure you realized but nobody in NV reacts realistically to pain, the overdramatic reaction to the technique leads me to believe he was faking it.


-Why would they have similar biology if they aren't bloodrelated? Me and my best friends could be considered brothers but our abilities and skill are completely independent of that. Same instance here.
-No that is false. Anyway I don't know why you are countering with that defense, the whole reason I brought up Ei cutting his arm off is because you claimed since Ei was being burnt and didn't scream, that Hachibi couldn't possibly have been in real pain ignoring many things such as:
-Ei and Hachibi have different durability. 
-Ei was only burning on his arm, not his whole body. Ei also was covered by Raiton no Youri which increases durability a shit ton, and he immediately cut it off because he knew how dangerous it was. My argument was he obviously didn't care about the pain because he cut off his arm with a similar reaction.
-That's a ridiculous assumption. Someone on fire is faking it. Once again I ask you, why the fuck would be go from trying to kill them, to escaping in 1 second? the only factor that changed him from about to slaughter, into fetal position was Sasuke instinctively activating amaterasu at that point. He literally had to substitute underwater or he would have died or been captured.



> I would if Bee hadn't been chilling on a vactaion afterwards. It didn't even put him in the Hospital.


Hachibi is the one who got hit. Bee was also able to Kawamari before it extensively spread (the part he used for the strasnfer couldn't have been on fire or he would have remained so underwater making the transfer pointless). We have seen Bjuu heal even death before, and Hachibi has taken a TBB to the face before. The problem with Ama is it's hot enough to burn most things and doesn't stop for 3 days.



> _Here's my original post on this thread, you're welcome to point me to my claims regarding it's power._


I'm not referring to that post but the countless rebuttals made. I'll find it if you really want me to. We're arguing about it in this same post lol.


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