# Jiraiya vs. Might Gai the Green Beast



## Jad (Mar 7, 2014)

*Distance:* 15 metres
*State of Mind:* IC
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Area:* Alliance vs. Madara
*Restrictions:* 8th Gate

*Scenario 2:*
Full Knowledge (not sure if this changes anything)


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## J★J♥ (Mar 7, 2014)

Base Jiraya gets demolished in CQC.
His Ninjutsu is also useless in close.
Summoning will only force Guy in to gates which wont end well for Jiraya.

S2.
Jiraya runs away and completely shits on Guy in his next book.


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## Mercurial (Mar 7, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Base Jiraya gets demolished in CQC.
> His Ninjutsu is also useless in close.
> Summoning will only force Guy in to gates which wont end well for Jiraya.
> 
> ...



/thread

Gai is simply too fast, too powerful and too strong for Jiraiya to handle. He would be blitzed and stomped like a ragdoll.


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## Jad (Mar 7, 2014)

I personally think Jiraiya using Yomi Numa, say in base, is probably the worst thing he could do. If Gai gets caught early on with the technique, his just going to go gates to get out of it. And he wouldn't waste the opportunity whilst in gated form to just close the gap and go into CQC. Similar situation to Kisame putting Gai at the bottom of the sea. Most likely using Ningame as leverage/stepping stone.​


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## Ghost (Mar 7, 2014)

jiraiya's casual yomi numa bends reality. not even guy after opening the wank gate has a chance.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 7, 2014)

Jiraiya has two options:

1) Run away, hide, enter Sage Mode, and wear Gai out from the shadows

or

2) Try to take Gai on directly, in base form, and get flattened.


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## egressmadara (Mar 7, 2014)




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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2014)

Honestly Jiriaya would probably win both scenario's by simply using Toad Flatness Shadow manipulation to turn into a shadow becoming immune to attacks, whenever Gai uses Gates, until the Gates run out, and even Base-Jiriaya can take Base-Gai. This is why the short-duration of Gates and their heavy toll is so key to consider in Gai battles, it's not like he just goes Gates and someone has to actually fight Gate-Gai, they can just avoid him, if they have the right Jutsu till Gates runs out.

Now Granted if 8th-Gate can be activated in a flash unlike the other Gates, and 8th-Gate Gai can blitz J-man before he can use Toad Flatness Shadow manipulation, than Gai could still force a draw w/ 8th-Gate, but we'll have to wait and see for that.


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## Mercurial (Mar 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Honestly Jiriaya would probably win both scenario's by simply using Toad Flatness Shadow manipulation to turn into a shadow becoming immune to attacks, whenever Gai uses Gates, until the Gates run out, and even Base-Jiriaya can take Base-Gai. This is why the short-duration of Gates and their heavy toll is so key to consider in Gai battles, it's not like he just goes Gates and someone has to actually fight Gate-Gai, they can just avoid him, if they have the right Jutsu till Gates runs out.
> 
> Now Granted if 8th-Gate can be activated in a flash unlike the other Gates, and 8th-Gate Gai can blitz J-man before he can use Toad Flatness Shadow manipulation, than Gai could still force a draw w/ 8th-Gate, but we'll have to wait and see for that.



Base Gai would blitz base Jiraiya. Gated Gai curbstomps without Jiraiya even understand what is happening.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 7, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Base Gai would blitz base Jiraiya. Gated Gai curbstomps without Jiraiya even understand what is happening.


Uh Jiraiya already in canon tanked one of Base Gai's blitzes. Gated Gai would be tougher, but he isn't gonna curbstomp the Toad Sannin. Once Jiraiya gets into Sage Mode, not much Gai can do to him due to the ninjutsu boost Jiraiya gets as well as Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders which can paralyze him with Toad Call then use Goemon to fry him.


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Base Gai would blitz base Jiraiya. Gated Gai curbstomps without Jiraiya even understand what is happening.


No he wouldn't. Kisame didn't get blitz'd by Base-Gai despite being slower than Base Jiriaya. Not to mention there is 15m distance separating them, which is quite substantial. 

Jiraiya would see Gai use Gates, and than use Toad-Flatness Shadow manipulation to avoid Gai until the few seconds passed while Gates are activated. 

Jiriaya is a poor match up for Gai, it's that simple.


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## LostSelf (Mar 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Jiraiya has two options:
> 
> 1) Run away, hide, enter Sage Mode, and wear Gai out from the shadows
> 
> ...



This. Jiraiya's best chances are running away to enter sage mode/summon, etc, otherwise Gai is gonna blitz him bad in 7th gate. And if Gai manages to score one hit, Jiraiya will be as defensless as Kisame since Gai would follow up with many powerful hits that at some point will end up killing the Sannin.

Since the shockwave was enough to even bother Juubidara (Even though that didn't minimized his reactions thanks to sensing), Jiraiya is likely going to get the same treatment. So at least in the second scenario, Gai is going gates inmediately, closing the distance and kicking Jiraiya to death. The first one can go either way, it's still manga knowledge, so Jiraiya should run away from Gai's reach and speed.

So i go with Gai more times than not.


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## Bonly (Mar 7, 2014)

Gai would win more times then not. He's a terrible match for Jiraiya once those gates pop up Jiraiya only stands a chance in SM and even then things are looking in favor for Gai imo. The masters are moving up in the world.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Honestly Jiriaya would probably win both scenario's by simply using Toad Flatness Shadow manipulation to turn into a shadow becoming immune to attacks,



The shadow Jutsu was never, ever shown to make Jiraiya immune to attacks; it just flattens his body.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Uh Jiraiya already in canon tanked one of Base Gai's blitzes. Gated Gai would be tougher, but he isn't gonna curbstomp the Toad Sannin. Once Jiraiya gets into Sage Mode, not much Gai can do to him due to the ninjutsu boost Jiraiya gets as well as Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders which can paralyze him with Toad Call then use Goemon to fry him.



Gai can easily disrupt Kawazu Naki with his attacks, since they distort the air; Hirudora can be used completely outside its range, too.

Not saying Gai wins, but it will take more than that for Jiraiya to beat him and fighting Gai directly would be suicide without Sage Mode.

And contrary to what you think, Gai's still capable of ripping him apart even in that, so he can't just stand there and do nothing.


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## Cyphon (Mar 7, 2014)

For those focusing on Taijutsu Jiraiya's hair defense would render anything Gai does in base mostly useless. Obviously there are openings but I am sure Jiraiya would plan accordingly. Gai would have to be very cautious about attacking directly because of it. 

And especially for those talking about Jiraiya being blitzed. Slower Kisame with similar Taijutsu stats IIRC really had no problem keeping up with Gai.


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> The shadow Jutsu was never, ever shown to make Jiraiya immune to attacks; it just flattens his body.


Kishi doesn't have to literally show us everything. We are intelligent people and can exercise common-sense. You can't attack a Shadow. Gamadaira: Kage Ayatsuri no Jutsu does not just flatten the body, that is simply the first step, the second step is becoming part of the Shadow; DBIII, "Then, by becoming one with the shadow. We are also blatantly shown that Jiraiya's body becomes a shadow in the manga cannon:
_pathetic_
_pathetic_
_pathetic_
_pathetic_
_pathetic_


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Mar 7, 2014)

Gai mid difficulty...


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## LostSelf (Mar 7, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> For those focusing on Taijutsu Jiraiya's hair defense would render anything Gai does in base mostly useless. Obviously there are openings but I am sure Jiraiya would plan accordingly. Gai would have to be very cautious about attacking directly because of it.
> 
> And especially for those talking about Jiraiya being blitzed. Slower Kisame with similar Taijutsu stats IIRC really had no problem keeping up with Gai.



The hair defense didn't do much to Orochimaru's bite however. About being blitzed, Juubi Jin Madara was pretty surprised to the point of jumping backwards by Gai's speed.

I don't see Jiraiya matching even half of that, honestly. Also, maybe it's just me, but i don't remember Kisame reacting to Gated Gai.


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## Cyphon (Mar 7, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> The hair defense didn't do much to Orochimaru's bite however.



Gai doesn't have a stretchy neck or Oro's healing powers. He can't be so careless and creative with his actions. 



> I don't see Jiraiya matching even half of that, honestly. Also, maybe it's just me, but i don't remember Kisame reacting to Gated Gai.



I was talking about base Gai. But Kisame did have a chance to raise his sword when gated Gai came to attack. 

In any case it doesn't even make sense that Gai could win so easily based on the story. If gates were that broken that he could casually off most Hokage level people he would be more feared and respected methinks.


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## LostSelf (Mar 7, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Gai doesn't have a stretchy neck or Oro's healing powers. He can't be so careless and creative with his actions.



But Oro didn't have healing powers, he didn't even flinch. Gai is the man that uses a muscle and bone breaking technique over and over again fighting for days and barely feels the effects.



> I was talking about base Gai. But Kisame did have a chance to raise his sword when gated Gai came to attack.



Oh, base Gai, then i agree. He is not blitzing. However, Gated Gai jumped in front of Kisame with a pose and did nothing. Kisame reacted to that, not Gai's attacks. You can see because Kisame throws an attack first while Gai is in the pose, then Gai attacks after that and hits Kisame before he can even finish.



> In any case it doesn't even make sense that Gai could win so easily based on the story. If gates were that broken that he could casually off most Hokage level people he would be more feared and respected methinks.



It's because he doesn't open them at first. However, Gai is Kakashi's rival, he improves as much, not to mention that everybody was powerscaled in the war, just like Jiraiya would've been. But right now Jiraiya is not above Gai portrayal wise, and the fight here, or at least the second scenario, is heavily turned in his favor.

It's almost like Kakashi, who can use Kamui and take out almost everybody. I agree it would be weird to see Kakashi one shotting Hashirama for example. But not somebody of the level of base Jiraiya or SM. Those are shinobis in their league as the Masters have improved drastically.


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## Cyphon (Mar 7, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> But Oro didn't have healing powers, he didn't even flinch. Gai is the man that uses a muscle and bone breaking technique over and over again fighting for days and barely feels the effects.



I am not sure how that helps him punch spikes as hard as steel. 



> Jiraiya is not above Gai portrayal wise, and the fight here, or at least the second scenario, is heavily turned in his favor.



Jiraiya continues to gain hype through other means. Other people hype him or we find out Senjutsu is one of the only things that can harm Madara. So I would still say portrayal wise he is stronger. 

Of course it looks like we will get 8 gates soon and that could change things but even if it does it is supposed to result in Gai's death so at best we could agree on a draw.


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## LostSelf (Mar 7, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> I am not sure how that helps him punch spikes as hard as steel.



If i am not mistaken, Oro's feet tanked it as well. But i will leave that there, even if Gai is damaged by it, it's not the best idea since Gai can use Hirudora at close range. And pretty fast.



> Jiraiya continues to gain hype through other means. Other people hype him or we find out Senjutsu is one of the only things that can harm Madara. So I would still say portrayal wise he is stronger.
> 
> Of course it looks like we will get 8 gates soon and that could change things but even if it does it is supposed to result in Gai's death so at best we could agree on a draw.



But having a jutsu that damages Madara doesn't put him above. He is beatable by shinobis without senjutsu such like Nagato, or the same EMS Madara. Jiraiya was an unique character, but his hype are not always made for power. Gai has something that can damage Madara and is taijutsu, if we go by that, Gai has more chances of landing a blow on Juubi Jin mads than Jiraiya.

About the draw, eight gate would put him tiers above Jiraiya if he manages to do something to Juubi Jin Madara, though. This is just my point of view, but in my opinion, if a Shinobi uses a suicide jutsu that kills the other doesn't make it a draw. The suicide shinobi defeated the other and was not defeated by the enemy's jutsu. Not only for Gai, though. For Minato, Deidara, etc. as well.

But that's just me.


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## Jad (Mar 8, 2014)

I feel like if Jiraiya is trying to prevent a CQC attack from a Gated Gai, it will be too late. At 2nd Gate, Gai was able to move during a double Kamui warp, not only that, but he saved Kakashi from a point blank explosion of this size [x]. Higher gates will just mean he gets there faster.

For _*Wild Lion's Mane Technique*_, Jiraiya still has to form seals and then the hair needs to wrap around him. Even then, Orochimaru was just able to get to him from a distance of a few meters.

Also, if Gai does use _*Hirudora *_on _Wild Lions Mane_, he will still feel the full brunt of the blast. Orochimaru was able to shift the hair with his foot so he could get a clear shot at Jiraiya's neck. A giant explosion is going to disrupt the positioning of the hair just as easily. That is to say it isn't in a fixed permanent position. It also doesn't cover his entire body [x].


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## Cyphon (Mar 8, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> If i am not mistaken, Oro's feet tanked it as well. But i will leave that there, even if Gai is damaged by it, it's not the best idea since Gai can use Hirudora at close range. And pretty fast.



I think Oro was stuck to it. They pierced his feet. 

On the other hand we don't know what all it would tank. Kisame survived with no defenses. Jiraiya would have a thick as hair defense as hard as steel.

For that matter we are talking as if Jiraiya isn't on the attack the whole time as well not even allowing Gai to get close. I was only pointing out that if Gai manages to get close, Jiraiya has defenses.

I personally don't think Gai would have an easy time even getting close. Between Yomi Numa, Wild Lions Mane, KB and summons there are just so many options Jiraiya has to work against a one dimensional fighter like Gai. 



> But having a jutsu that damages Madara doesn't put him above.



I am not saying it puts him above. I am saying despite his death his hype/growth hasn't necessarily stalled. We are given clues that he could still fight with the likes of the final boss so to speak. In fact he is one of the few characters who could do so. 



> About the draw, eight gate would put him tiers above Jiraiya if he manages to do something to Juubi Jin Madara, though. This is just my point of view, but in my opinion, if a Shinobi uses a suicide jutsu that kills the other doesn't make it a draw. The suicide shinobi defeated the other and was not defeated by the enemy's jutsu. Not only for Gai, though. For Minato, Deidara, etc. as well.
> 
> But that's just me.



My point is mainly just that if we learn 8 gates would give him something to put him above Jiraiya but he still kills himself in the process of defeating Jiraiya it is a draw. You could say he was temporarily stronger, I will grant you that. But he could still only fight him to a draw.


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## Jad (Mar 8, 2014)

I feel like the problem is if Jiraiya does something that Gai sees a problem, that's it, he will go gated mode no questions asked. That means a lot of Jiraiya's ninjutsu will just get dodged or countered by Morning Peacock or insta-Hirudora (which I honestly see as a win). I'm not saying Jiraiya doesn't have versatility, but a lot of that stuff is useless against someone going as fast as Gai. At 7-gates, time stands still pretty much for Gai, his hitting absurd speed at this point.

You have to remember, Gai has started a lot of things in gated mode. He went instant gates against Kisame at turtle island, against Obito to save Naruto, against the Jins, against Gedo, for sure against Madara (three times), and generally during the war (hence Lee had to carry him).

And you know with manga knowledge - going up against a Sannin you're going to have the thought of going gates at the back of your head. So I fear Jiraiya might get canned before he even gets a chance to go Sennin Mode unfortunately.

Although I'm not sure what he can do in Sennin Mode to, especially when his reliant on the two toads standing on his shoulders who are just as much in the firing lines as Jiraiya himself. Meaning his durability in Sennin Mode disappears if they get hit in the crossfire.​


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## LostSelf (Mar 8, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> I think Oro was stuck to it. They pierced his feet.



Yes, my bad.



> On the other hand we don't know what all it would tank. Kisame survived with no defenses. Jiraiya would have a thick as hair defense as hard as steel.



Gai was trying to take Kisame alive if i am not mistaken, on top of that, we don't know how durable Jiraiya is compared to Kisame in order to survive _Hirudora_. But the second one he used was powerful enough to probably damage Madara in his Susano'o form, considering how the grip of the Mokuton lost it's power when he was hit. I do not see Jiraiya being able to fight after being hit by one.

Gai can probably use more than one as well, though. But i don't think he might resort to that too fast, _Asa Kujaku_ is a viable attack too.



> For that matter we are talking as if Jiraiya isn't on the attack the whole time as well not even allowing Gai to get close. I was only pointing out that if Gai manages to get close, Jiraiya has defenses.



Yes, but the problem is that Gai can easily dodge his attacks (in gates) while Jiraiya is more pressured. Gai closed the distance fast enough to make Juubi Jin Madara look like an owl when he saw such speed. If we compare how Madara handled SM Minato, who was kicked aside before he could do something, then Jiraiya might be too pressured by Gai in order to attack in tandem.

I am not saying Jiraiya loses, though. I say he loses if he lets Gai gets close or tries to fight him in close quarters. Because considering the distance and his recent speed, if he open gates and attacks right away, he might pressure Jiraiya too much.



> I personally don't think Gai would have an easy time even getting close. Between Yomi Numa, Wild Lions Mane, KB and summons there are just so many options Jiraiya has to work against a one dimensional fighter like Gai.



This is a battle of speed in there. Jiraiya should create those jutsus before Gai opens gates and rushes against him attacking. The reason i favor Gai here is because he was able to send Madara flying all over the landscape before Madara could finish less than a single swing. In other words, a beaten up Gai and tied by Mokuton opened gates and launched Hirudora, hitting Madara from a considerable distance before Madara could finish this. Notice that Gai attacks after that scan, so Madara's attack was closer. Yet he not only opened gates that fast, Hirudora traveled incredibly fast to hit Madara and drag him before he could do something to Naruto.

(If you look at page 15 you can see the big distance between Gai and Naruto. Probably bigger than the distance between Gai and Jiraiya here).



> I am not saying it puts him above. I am saying despite his death his hype/growth hasn't necessarily stalled. We are given clues that he could still fight with the likes of the final boss so to speak. In fact he is one of the few characters who could do so.



But if we consider that he was inferior to Minato, maybe not. But considering that had him been alive now he might've been stronger probably, i wouldn't be surprised.



> My point is mainly just that if we learn 8 gates would give him something to put him above Jiraiya but he still kills himself in the process of defeating Jiraiya it is a draw. You could say he was temporarily stronger, I will grant you that. But he could still only fight him to a draw.



Yes, that's a logical reasoning. That's why i said in my opinion. Because i find nothing wrong with the draw claim. I just see that if Gai is killed by his own jutsu and not by Jiraiya's, then he would still be the victor. Even if both eventually dies.

But this part is just another way of seeing thins from my side.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

@Jad
How does Gai handle Jiriaya simply becoming an intangible shadow until Gai's Gates run out?


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## Bonly (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Jad
> How does Gai handle Jiriaya simply becoming an intangible shadow until Gai's Gates run out?



By any chance have we seen this in action? As in Jiraiya's starts to flattened himself or have we only seen the end result?


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Bonly said:


> By any chance have we seen this in action? As in Jiraiya's starts to flattened himself or have we only seen the end result?


We've seen the process, when Jiriaya releases himself from the Shadow. And the DB tells us how it works. It goes Flatten ones body - Fuse w/ Shadow; the process does not take very long as Jiraiya un-fuse against Pain and Konan very quickly to time his attacks properly. He apparently can use Jutsu still while his body is half shadow, as he did so against Konan.
Link removed


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## Bonly (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> We've seen the process, when Jiriaya releases himself from the Shadow. And the DB tells us how it works. It goes Flatten ones body - Fuse w/ Shadow; the process does not take very long as Jiraiya un-fuse against Pain and Konan very quickly to time his attacks properly. He apparently can use Jutsu still while his body is half shadow, as he did so against Konan.
> Link removed



Ah so we haven't see him start it up but we have seen him get out, thanks. Now with that said and your question to Jad "How does Gai handle Jiriaya simply becoming an intangible shadow until Gai's Gates run out?", I've got a question for you. Can Gai simply not end his gates to lure Jiraiya out of the shadow then proceed to successfully attack Jiraiya afterwords when he can pretty much *instantly* active the gates,depending on the distance that is?


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## FlamingRain (Mar 8, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Can Gai simply not end his gates to lure Jiraiya out of the shadow then proceed to successfully attack Jiraiya afterwords



How is leaving his Gated state supposed to lure Jiraiya out of the shadow?


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## Bonly (Mar 8, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> How is leaving his Gated state supposed to lure Jiraiya out of the shadow?



Did you not bother to read what he said? He said "How does Gai handle Jiriaya simply becoming an intangible shadow *until Gai's Gates run out*?". So if by Turrin logic Jiraiya wouldn't come out until the gates are gone then at some point in time couldn't Gai leave his gated form and make Jiraiya think he's done thus luring him out and meeting the condition Turrin said?


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## LostSelf (Mar 8, 2014)

Then Gai deactivates gates and waits 'till Jiraiya wastes all his chakra hiding .


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## Senjuclan (Mar 8, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Did you not bother to read what he said? He said "How does Gai handle Jiriaya simply becoming an intangible shadow *until Gai's Gates run out*?". So if by Turrin logic Jiraiya wouldn't come out until the gates are gone then at some point in time couldn't Gai leave his gated form and make Jiraiya think he's done thus luring him out and meeting the condition Turrin said?



Just to be clear, if Jiraiya uses this jutsu, Gai is done for since Jiraiya can control his every move. 

Now whether or not he can do this during battle, we know not. However, he can indeed restrict Gai's movements with too many jutsus and proceed to possess his shadow


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## Bonly (Mar 8, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Just to be clear, *if Jiraiya uses this jutsu, Gai is done for since Jiraiya can control his every move.*
> 
> Now whether or not he can do this during battle, we know not. However, he can indeed restrict Gai's movements with too many jutsus and proceed to possess his shadow



No, just to be clear if it's used on Gai's shadow then he's pretty much done for but as we saw Jiraiya can use this jutsu and not be fused to another person's shadow thus the jutsu being used doesn't outright spell the loss for Gai .


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## Senjuclan (Mar 8, 2014)

Bonly said:


> No, just to be clear if it's used on Gai's shadow then he's pretty much done for but as we saw Jiraiya can use this jutsu and not be fused to another person's shadow thus the jutsu being used doesn't outright spell the loss for Gai .



The only way he uses the Justus is to merge with someone's shadow. No other way


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## Bonly (Mar 8, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> The only way he uses the Justus is to merge with someone's shadow. No other way



http://www.mangapanda.com/93-383-13/naruto/chapter-378.html


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## Senjuclan (Mar 8, 2014)

Bonly said:


> http://www.mangapanda.com/93-383-13/naruto/chapter-378.html



Why would he use that jutsu instead toad subjugation?


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Ah so we haven't see him start it up but we have seen him get out, thanks. Now with that said and your question to Jad "How does Gai handle Jiriaya simply becoming an intangible shadow until Gai's Gates run out?", I've got a question for you. Can Gai simply not end his gates to lure Jiraiya out of the shadow then proceed to successfully attack Jiraiya afterwords when he can pretty much *instantly* active the gates,depending on the distance that is?


Problem is Gates don't activate instantly. The panel you posted is misleading because we don't know how much time passed between chapters. Every other time, even against Madara, we see Gai  taking time to activate Gates:
*instantly*
*instantly*

Than on-top of that Gai needs time to attack, even if it's a small time do to his speed, it still adds to the time total. Finally we must consider the Jiriaya does not need to completely exit the shadow to use jutsu, as we saw against Konan, so he could stay as partially a shadow and still cast Jutsu against Gai, that way the moment Gai ops for Gates he needs even less time to become an intangible shadow.

So i'm still not really seeing a way Gai deals with this and it honestly just seems like a terrible match up for Gai's Gates.


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## Bonly (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> *Problem is Gates don't activate instantly*. The panel you posted is misleading because we don't know how much time passed between chapters. Every other time, even against Madara, we see Gai  taking time to activate Gates:
> *instantly*
> *instantly*



Which is why I said pretty much and not actually instantly due to him taking a second or two although that depends as he's been shown to open a gate like that before when he went to chase *Kisame*(when he was *knocked* to the ground before hand).



> Than on-top of that Gai needs time to attack, even if it's a small time do to his speed, it still adds to the time total. Finally we must consider the Jiriaya does not need to completely exit the shadow to use jutsu, as we saw against Konan, so he could stay as partially a shadow and still cast Jutsu against Gai, that way the moment Gai ops for Gates he needs even less time to become an intangible shadow.
> 
> So i'm still not really seeing a way Gai deals with this and it honestly just seems like a terrible match up for Gai's Gates.




You didn't answer my question though. I asked couldn't Gai end gates to lure Jiraiya out as you said Jiraiya would just come out when the gates ended. Also to be noted, the two times Jiraiya used a jutsu when he was partially out of a shadow he always fully came out after the attack so that could be an effect of the jutsu.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Which is why I said pretty much and not actually instantly due to him taking a second or two



2-Seconds is enough time for even Base-Naruto whose not as fast as Base-Jiriaya to use Jutsu; we saw this in the Deva-fight. Even than I feel this is an underestimation of how much time it takes to open the gates, considering the amount of panels devoted to it when he went all out against Juubidara.



> although that depends as he's been shown to open a gate like that before when he went to chase Kisame(when he was knocked to the ground before hand).


Another misleading instance, considering that Gai was off-panel and probably was charing Gates then. Fact of the matter is Gai had no reason to hold back or take his time against Madara, yet we clearly saw the steps it took to activate Gates. There is no reason to believe Gai can do it any faster than that.



> You didn't answer my question though. I asked couldn't Gai end gates to lure Jiraiya out as you said Jiraiya would just come out when the gates ended.


I did answer your question. Jiraiya would simple use the Jutsu again when Gai went to use Gates again since he'd see Gai go to activate Gates; there is nothing subtle about it. And if Jiriaya's really concerned like I said he could stay partially fused w/ the Shadow and still use Jutsu, that way he could become full shadow faster.



> . Also to be noted, the two times Jiraiya used a jutsu when he was partially out of a shadow he always fully came out after the attack so that could be an effect of the jutsu.


Doesn't seem to be the case considering that he used the Jutsu while partially a Shadow, so why would he not be able to use more techniques that way?

Edit: For example Kisame is slower than Base-Jiriaya, but he was able to cast a Jutsu before 7th-Gate Gai could blitz him.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 8, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Did you not bother to read what he said? He said "How does Gai handle Jiriaya simply becoming an intangible shadow *until Gai's Gates run out*?". So if by Turrin logic Jiraiya wouldn't come out until the gates are gone then at some point in time couldn't Gai leave his gated form and make Jiraiya think he's done thus luring him out and meeting the condition Turrin said?



I'm pretty sure that Turrin's idea was that Jiraiya would wait until Gai was exhausted by his Gated state. There's a difference between the ascension actually running out and Gai simply turning it off. Jiraiya isn't going to carelessly leave the shadow to directly combat a still fairly healthy Gai who could reactivate Gates at any time, he'd leave it if Gai had hit his limit and couldn't transform again.

But if you think "run out" and "turn off" mean or result in the same thing then I'm not sure what else to say.


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## Bonly (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> 2-Seconds is enough time for even Base-Naruto whose not as fast as Base-Jiriaya to use Jutsu; we saw this in the Deva-fight. Even than I feel this is an underestimation of how much time it takes to open the gates, *considering the amount of panels devoted to it when he went all out against Juubidara.*



What are you taking about? The dude legit take no more then two seconds, dude sat here and jumped towards Madara with his arms above his head and swung them down then he was in the gates. Seriously dude, stop overrating the panel time.




> Another misleading instance, considering that Gai was off-panel and probably was charing Gates then.



He was off panel for two panels while he was on his ass. Yeah he was charging them though lol.



> Fact of the matter is Gai had no reason to hold back or take his time against Madara, yet we clearly saw the steps it took to activate Gates. *There is no reason to believe Gai can do it any faster than that.*



None besides the manga.



> I did answer your question. Jiraiya would simple use the Jutsu again when Gai went to use Gates again since he'd see Gai go to activate Gates; there is nothing subtle about it. And if Jiriaya's really concerned like I said he could stay partially fused w/ the Shadow and still use Jutsu, that way he could become full shadow faster.



No you danced around the question and came up with an excuse such as mention how you think Jiraiya doesn't need to leave the Shadow as well as mention the time it takes Gai to use gates yet never actually answer if Gai could actually deactivate the gates and lure Jiraiya completely out of the shadow if Jiraiya thought he was done.




> Doesn't seem to be the case considering that he used the Jutsu while partially a Shadow,



And in case you missed it the first time, after the he used one jutsu while in the shadow he came out.



> so why would he not be able to use more techniques that way?



The fact that he came out after using a jutsu suggest that he might not be able to just sit in the shadow. 




> Edit: For example Kisame is slower than Base-Jiriaya, but he was able to cast a Jutsu before 7th-Gate Gai could blitz him.



7th Gated Gai never tried to blitz him.



FlamingRain said:


> I'm pretty sure that Turrin's idea was that Jiraiya would wait until Gai was exhausted by his Gated state. There's a difference between the ascension actually running out and Gai simply turning it off. Jiraiya isn't going to carelessly leave the shadow to directly combat a still fairly healthy Gai who could reactivate Gates at any time, he'd leave it if Gai had hit his limit and couldn't transform again.
> 
> But if you think "run out" and "turn off" mean or result in the same thing then I'm not sure what else to say.





Seriously?

Since you seem to not understand it I'll have to break it down for ya.


First off has Gai ever gotten to the point where he's exhausted by the gates that they just turn off on him mid use or does he willing turn it off from what we've seen in the manga? The correct answer is..... the latter. We have seen Gai use multiple gates and along with MP+AT all at once and he still turned off the gates on his term and was fine for a bit before feeling the effects. 

So now think about it. If Gai turns them off the gates willing(as he's done every damn time) and made it seem as if he's exhausted as if he can't do it anymore late into the match, can he not trick Jiraiya into leaving the shadow?


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Bonly said:


> What are you taking about? The dude legit take no more then two seconds, dude sat here and jumped towards Madara with his arms above his head and swung them down then he was in the gates. Seriously dude, stop overrating the panel time.



What about the entire time when the energy was still building up and exploding forth from him? And again 2-seconds is enough time anyway.



> He was off panel for two panels while he was on his ass. Yeah he was charging them though lol.


He clearly got off his ass during those panels, so I don't see why he couldn't have done the typical Gate-Charging at the same time, I.E. cross arm stance and all that.



> None besides the manga.


So you believe Gai was taking it easy on Juubidara?



> No you danced around the question and came up with an excuse such as mention how you think Jiraiya doesn't need to leave the Shadow as well as mention the time it takes Gai to use gates yet never actually answer if Gai could actually deactivate the gates and lure Jiraiya completely out of the shadow if Jiraiya thought he was done.


How is that dancing around the question, that is directly answering how Jiriaya would deal w Gai if he deactivated Gates. But maybe i'm not understanding what your asking, precisely.



> And in case you missed it the first time, after the he used one jutsu while in the shadow he came out.


And why exactly is that indicative of using a Jutsu meaning he has to leave the Shadow? He was partially Shadow when using the Jutsu, which very clearly suggests being in the Shadow does not impede his ability to use Jutsu. 



> 7th Gated Gai never tried to blitz him.


Why wouldn't he try to blitz him, if he could have done so, that easily? Kisame also wasn't that quick to use a Jutsu ether, considering he decided to chit chat first. And finally if he didn't opt for a blitz right away against Kisame, what makes you so sure he would against Jiraiya?


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## FlamingRain (Mar 8, 2014)

> Seriously?
> 
> Since you seem to not understand it I'll have to break it down for ya.
> 
> ...



Just because we haven't seen him get to that point doesn't mean he can't; we know what Gai would look like if he maintained the gates long enough for them to actually run out anyway because we've already seen an exhausted Gai- barely moving and shrieking ouch at every little thing he comes into contact with, and to my knowledge we've never seen him reactivate the gates in such a state.

How long it takes him to feel said effects of gates-exhaustion is irrelevant because Jiraiya won't leave _until_ he feels said effects (maybe you missed the "still fairly healthy" part of my post- aka, not during the bit that he's still fine afterwards and can do stuff); and I have thought about it, which is why I seriously doubt Gai is going to be able to _believably_ pretend to be as exhausted as we've seen him post-gates in canon.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 9, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> For those focusing on Taijutsu Jiraiya's hair defense would render anything Gai does in base mostly useless. Obviously there are openings but I am sure Jiraiya would plan accordingly. Gai would have to be very cautious about attacking directly because of it.
> 
> And especially for those talking about Jiraiya being blitzed. Slower Kisame with similar Taijutsu stats IIRC really had no problem keeping up with Gai.



I don't think most of us are talking about base Gai...



Turrin said:


> Kishi doesn't have to literally show us everything. We are intelligent people and can exercise common-sense. You can't attack a Shadow. Gamadaira: Kage Ayatsuri no Jutsu does not just flatten the body, that is simply the first step, the second step is becoming part of the Shadow; DBIII, "Then, by becoming one with the shadow. We are also blatantly shown that Jiraiya's body becomes a shadow in the manga cannon:
> *knocked*
> *knocked*
> *knocked*
> ...



None of that shows Jiraiya actually being immune to damage in that form... And "common sense" doesn't tell us anything regarding this subject because Jiraiya's ability to flatten his body into a shadow defies just that.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> None of that shows Jiraiya actually being immune to damage in that form... And "common sense" doesn't tell us anything regarding this subject because Jiraiya's ability to flatten his body into a shadow defies just that.


Dude we go w/ common sense until shown otherwise.


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## Bonly (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> What about the entire time when the energy was still building up and exploding forth from him? And again 2-seconds is enough time anyway.



He was already in said gate when that happened. Him standing in place doesn't count towards time it takes to actually enter said gate.




> He clearly got off his ass during those panels, so I don't see why he couldn't have done the typical Gate-Charging at the same time, I.E. cross arm stance and all that.



Yes, he got off his ass and went right into the gate as fast as he can Lee did when everyone showed up to take on the Juubi.




> So you believe Gai was taking it easy on Juubidara?



Did you see a MP being used? Did you see nun-chucks being used? Did you see AT fired off from the get go 




> How is that dancing around the question, that is directly answering how Jiriaya would deal w Gai if he deactivated Gates. But maybe i'm not understanding what your asking, precisely.



>Gets asked a yes or no question
>Doesn't answer with yes or no
>Mention time of gates 
>Mention how he think character can stay in the shadow
>Still didn't answer yes or no to the questioned asked.




> And why exactly is that indicative of using a Jutsu meaning he has to leave the Shadow? He was partially Shadow when using the Jutsu, which very clearly suggests being in the Shadow does not impede his ability to use Jutsu.



Because he left the shadow after words. If he could stay in the shadow why bother getting out and taking on a path for a few seconds when he could simply go back to being untouchable and let frog song finish? Do you believe Jiraiya was taking it easy on the paths?



> *Why wouldn't he try to blitz him, if he could have done so, that easily?* Kisame also wasn't that quick to use a Jutsu ether, considering he decided to chit chat first. And finally if he didn't opt for a blitz right away against Kisame, what makes you so sure he would against Jiraiya?



Did you not read the manga? Kisame had his own shark with the Intel of the island mixed in with 1,000 other sharks made out of water. He was trying to find and stop said shark from getting away. Why exactly would he only foucs on Kisame and try to blitz him while ignoring the Sharks when he can fire off an AT and kill two birds with one stone?




FlamingRain said:


> Just because we haven't seen him get to that point doesn't mean he can't;



I guess I missed the part where someone said he can't get to that point. Might be confused with people looking at this realistically with how Gai is likely going to willingly get out of gates(like he always done) rather then get to the point where he runs out and can't use it anymore.



> *we know what Gai would look like* if he maintained the gates long enough for them to actually run out anyway because we've already seen an exhausted Gai- barely moving and shrieking ouch at every little thing he comes into contact with, and to my knowledge we've never seen him reactivate the gates in such a state.



Exactly, your knowledge. Does your knowledge equals Jiraiya's knowledge? We he know what Gai looks like but does Jiraiya? Nothing in the manga suggest he does which it seems you're not taking into account.



> How long it takes him to feel said effects of gates-exhaustion is irrelevant because Jiraiya won't leave _until_ he feels said effects



And how exactly will Jiraiya know that Gai couldn't be faking it? Are you applying your knowledge to Jiraiya again?



> (maybe you missed the "still fairly healthy" part of my post- aka, not during the bit that he's still fine afterwards and can do stuff);



No I just ignored because I've been clearly talking about Gai at some point in time after a somewhat lengthy battle which would allow him to help trick Jiraiya into thinking the side effects have happened. You talking about a "still fairly healthy" Gai is irrelevant to my point that I'm talking about. 



> and I have thought about it, which is why I seriously doubt Gai is going to be able to _believably_ pretend to be as exhausted as we've seen him post-gates in canon.



Gai doesn't need to pretend to be as exhausted as you have seen, he just needs to appear exhausted to the point that Jiraiya thinks he's done. Remember your knowledge =/= Jiraiya's which means he wouldn't outright mean he'll need to do that much of a job especially after seeing him complained how he used to much energy from fighting Kisame(turtle island).


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## Jad (Mar 9, 2014)

*Jiraiya Shadow Technique.*

 We don't know how long it takes for Jiraiya to meld into someones Shadow. The hand seals, the morph into the shadow, as in shape shifting to carefully mimic another persons body type (etc..)
Niku is on to something, in this scan [1], Jiraiya's hand is still flat despite the fact it's not a shadow anymore. There is enough evidence in that panel to suggest he just flattens himself.
 Jiraiya coming out of the shadow is a slow process, if you look at the scan he doesn't just pop out, it takes a few panels. And you can even see how his body shivers, which may indicate how delicate of a process it is.

Based on this examantion, Gai who is a CQC fighter, is not in a position to give Jiraiya the time to activate what is possibly (based on Jiraiya coming out) a slow activating jutsu. Especially when Gai is one of the fastest ninja in the manga in gates, and knows his limits.


The Databook pretty much agrees with me. It makes sense Jiraiya can't breathe, because if he lets in air into his flat body, it's going to puff up. Also, the _"One with the shadow"_ comment. Yeah, you pretty much are, since your body is ultra flat to mimic a shadow, and you have the chakra embedded to control the victim. It's not to be taken literally. It's like Bruce Lee saying _"Become one with water"._

The databook states _"By taking a deep breath, the ultrathin body expands again. The victim's temporary paralysis is also cancelled."_ So Jiraiya really is, just a thin version of himself.

*Nail in the coffin* [2], he actually doesn't even become the persons shadow. It's Jiraiya's flat body.

*Activating Gates*

I believe it's incorrect to suggest Gai and Lee have a charge time.

In Chuunin exams, Lee activated the 5th Gate in mid-attack.
Against Madara, Gai and Lee went 5th Gate instantly.
The 6th Gate wasn't activated standing still, it was activated while running. Albeit he did stand still next to Kakashi with his hands ready to pop. But it could be just said that he was waiting for Kakashi to attack first.
 He went into instant 6th Gate Morning Peacock attack mode, against the six-tails.
Gai's gates activate the moment he drops his hands from his forehead; the last example on the list it didn't even seem he bothered, he just went instant Morning Peacock. There is no charge time. It's Gates - Bam - Let's go. Believe me, activating gates is not going to be a problem in this fight. It's visually cool though when we see them activate.​


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## LostSelf (Mar 9, 2014)

I wonder why Jiraiya didn't turn into a shadow when he was outnumbered by the six paths of Pain...


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## Jad (Mar 9, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I wonder why Jiraiya didn't turn into a shadow when he was outnumbered by the six paths of Pain...



Because his durability is reduced to that of a thin piece of paper. I just proved Jiraiya doesn't actually become 'Shadow'.



> *Nail in the coffin* [2], he actually doesn't even become the persons shadow. It's Jiraiya's flat body.



It's like the worst possible position to put yourself in.


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## LostSelf (Mar 9, 2014)

Yes i agree with your post. I was saying something obvious because i am seeing this jutsu become Kamui V2 with literally no drawbacks when nothing indicates that, though.

You made good points there.


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## Jad (Mar 9, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Yes i agree with your post. I was saying something obvious because i am seeing this jutsu become Kamui V2 with literally no drawbacks when nothing indicates that, though.
> 
> You made good points there.



Also thought it was sort of weird if it was a true Shadow manipulation like technique, because actually tuning into a shadow seems like it would be a much more advanced technique of what the Nara clan do.

Plus Kishi likes to keep unique skill sets separate to certain types of people, his pretty consistent in that regard.


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## LostSelf (Mar 9, 2014)

Base Jiraiya might dodge all of Akatsuki's efforts with that shadow manipulation technique and outlast them. Guess Itachi's hype about base Jiraiya being equal to all Akatsuki members together was true after all .

Joking aside (don't feel offended, people), it would be better than Obito's Kamui too. But that's not the problem, if Kishi shows it that way then i accept it. The problem is that the jutsu hasn't shown much and we are giving it even how much Jiraiya can stay in that form or if he is untouchable when nothing has been stated and he hasn't relied on said jutsu to escape even sure death.

It's the only reasons i disagree with it.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin gonna Turrin.



> Toad Flatness - Shadow Manipulation Technique (蝦蟇平　影操りの術, Gamadaira - Kage Ayatsuri no Jutsu)
> Ninjutsu, B-rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
> User: Jiraiya
> 
> ...


Good luck trying to outlast anyone with that. Even if you believe that a B-rank supplementary ninjutsu makes you immune to any kind of damage.

On actual match - can go either way. Gai's main weakness is his inability to counter/detect good tricks and feints - which is like 2/3 of Jiraiya's arsenal. If J-Man plays it extremely safe/defensive - he can win. If he tries a more direct approach in Base - he gets kicked in half.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 9, 2014)

Blue text is really hard to read on the Kill la Kill skin.

Also, someone of questionable morals should mention how Kakashi held his breath inside Zabuza's water prison for infinity+1 chapters so we can work in a "Kakashi is boss" reply.  I won't because clearly Jiraiya can't hold his breath forever.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 9, 2014)

Jad said:


> Also thought it was sort of weird if it was a true Shadow manipulation like technique, because actually tuning into a shadow seems like it would be a much more advanced technique of what the Nara clan do.
> 
> Plus Kishi likes to keep unique skill sets separate to certain types of people, his pretty consistent in that regard.



Eh.  Everyone get MS, and Hashirama cells, and Mokuton, and Bijuu and sage modes nowadays.  

Jiraiya also had hair jutsu first, but then Choji and his clan got them.  He used to be pretty good in Part I, but I'm not so sure anymore.


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## Jad (Mar 9, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Eh.  Everyone get MS, and Hashirama cells, and Mokuton, and Bijuu and sage modes nowadays.



Yeah, but there are heavy reasons and explanations for those examples that Kishi goes into great detail to make sure the readers understand. It's a bit different then a character pulling off what probably is an advanced form of another clans specialty, then randomly leaving it at that.

Doesn't really matter anyways, there is enough proof to say Jiraiya isn't becoming a literal shadow, just a flat body. So I'm just going to leave it at that.



> Jiraiya also had hair jutsu first, but then Choji and his clan got them.  He used to be pretty good in Part I, but I'm not so sure anymore.



I'm not entirely sure what you mean, did the Akimichi clan use hair to attack with?

I think we are getting off topic at the moment.​


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## Alex Payne (Mar 9, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> "Kakashi is boss"


You know me too well. 

Even if you grant Jiraiya the same amount time that Kakashi spent in Water Prison - it is still far from enough to outlast Gai. And water prison doesn't stop breathing(see the DB entry and Zabuza's comment). Kishi's might have changed his mind in Part 2 or Ten Ten simply isn't boss enough to breath inside WP.


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## LostSelf (Mar 9, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Blue text is really hard to read on the Kill la Kill skin.
> 
> Also, someone of questionable morals should mention how Kakashi held his breath inside Zabuza's water prison for infinity+1 chapters so we can work in a "Kakashi is boss" reply.  I won't because clearly Jiraiya can't hold his breath forever.



This was like Namek. 5 minutes to be destroyed and it lasted like one week .

However, it's still 5 minutes in the manga, regardless of chapters.

I know we know that.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 9, 2014)

Jad said:


> Yeah, but there are heavy reasons and explanations for those examples that Kishi goes into great detail to make sure the readers understand. It's a bit different then a character pulling off what probably is an advanced form of another clans specialty, then randomly leaving it at that.
> 
> Doesn't really matter anyways, there is enough proof to say Jiraiya isn't becoming a literal shadow, just a flat body. So I'm just going to leave it at that.
> 
> ...



Ehh, sometimes.  And yeah.

Instead of the kunai wrap from part 1, Choji makes spikey hair in part 2 for pokey meat tank.

I don't really think that Kishi gave Jiraiya a Nara clan jutsu.  Though I don't really know if it's a Nara clan jutsu simply because it has shadow in the title.  The Uchihas and the Sarutobi's both specialized in fire jutsu, so it's not like clans don't have overlap.



alex payne said:


> You know me too well.
> 
> Even if you grant Jiraiya the same amount time that Kakashi spent in Water Prison - it is still far from enough to outlast Gai. And water prison doesn't stop breathing(see the DB entry and Zabuza's comment). Kishi's might have changed his mind in Part 2 or Ten Ten simply isn't boss enough to breath inside WP.



Yeah, I don't really think he can hold it for as long as needed.  He did hold his breath long enough to walk past security and into the tower to infiltrate, which I presume took time, but it's not a true combat jutsu outside of IS matches.



LostSelf said:


> This was like Namek. 5 minutes to be destroyed and it lasted like one week .
> 
> However, it's still 5 minutes in the manga, regardless of chapters.
> 
> I know we know that.



I'm with DBZ abridged.  Frieza doesn't know what a minute is, or how long it lasts.


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## Jad (Mar 9, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Ehh, sometimes.  And yeah.
> 
> Instead of the kunai wrap from part 1, Choji makes spikey hair in part 2 for pokey meat tank.



Oh yeah, good find. But at the same time, doesn't seem like a difficult task for anyone to perform hair hardening. Databook explains it as just pouring chakra into your hair and tightening the bonds. Even without Databook, you could pretty much come to that conclusion. I don't believe it's an Akimichi clan jutsu - or belongs to anyone.



> I don't really think that Kishi gave Jiraiya a Nara clan jutsu.  Though I don't really know if it's a Nara clan jutsu simply because it has shadow in the title.  The Uchihas and the Sarutobi's both specialized in fire jutsu, so it's not like clans don't have overlap.



Yeah, like I said, really doesn't matter anymore, it' just Jiraiya flattening himself. It's pretty evidence in the databook and manga chapter. Very bad move to make, since you become paper durable like.

Plus out in the open, were I make all my matches in the battledome, really doesn't seem feasible to use against someone of Gai's caliber in mid-combat. A strict CQC - speedster.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

Bonly said:


> He was already in said gate when that happened. Him standing in place doesn't count towards time it takes to actually enter said gate.


I don't think that is true, I think the explosion of energy is the inner gates opening, so they are only open after the explosion of energy is complete.



> Yes, he got off his ass and went right into the gate as fast as he can Lee did when everyone showed up to take on the Juubi.


So now you agree he did part of the charging off panel.



> Did you see a MP being used? Did you see nun-chucks being used? Did you see AT fired off from the get go


Come on now, it's silly to expect that Gai would waste extra time going Gates than he had to against an enemy such as Juubidara.



> >Gets asked a yes or no question
> >Doesn't answer with yes or no
> >Mention time of gates
> >Mention how he think character can stay in the shadow
> >Still didn't answer yes or no to the questioned asked.


Why exactly do I have to just answer Yes or No? You asked if Gai could bait Jiriaya out of the Shadow. To which I said, Jiriaya himself could come out of the Shadow to attack, but intentionally "bait" Jiraiya into a situation where he is not safe, I don't think Gai could do that.



> Because he left the shadow after words. If he could stay in the shadow why bother getting out and taking on a path for a few seconds when he could simply go back to being untouchable and let frog song finish? Do you believe Jiraiya was taking it easy on the paths?


And against Konan we actually see him become partially un-shadowed, than use Jutsu, and than after the Jutsu he still goes through the motions of breathing in to become un-shadowed, which wouldn't be necessary if using a Jutsu forces him automatically out of the Shadow:
Zabuza's comment

I don't see how Frog Song would work w/ the Shadow Jutsu. Apparently someone has to be at least partially released from the Shadow to use Jutsu, so Jiriaya would have to be partially out of the Shadow anyway, while Fukasaku and Shima used Frog Song. 



> Did you not read the manga? Kisame had his own shark with the Intel of the island mixed in with 1,000 other sharks made out of water. He was trying to find and stop said shark from getting away. Why exactly would he only foucs on Kisame and try to blitz him while ignoring the Sharks when he can fire off an AT and kill two birds with one stone?


He fired AT at Kisame, not the Sharks, so I don't see what the relevance is there. Plus if he could have blitz Kisame before Daikodan went off, he could have just finish Kisame that way, and than grabbed the Shark with his speed right afterwards.

And besides Kisame, why do we see Gai wasting time tacking the typical cross armed pose against the V2-Jin, if those steps weren't necessary:
Zabuza's comment

And again it's not like i'm saying Gates are slow, but I don't think they are so far where Gai can activate them and than blitz Jiraiya before Jiriaya can utilize a single Jutsu.



Jad said:


> We don't know how long it takes for Jiraiya to meld into someones Shadow. The hand seals, the morph into the shadow, as in shape shifting to carefully mimic another persons body type (etc..)


I don't see it taking much longer than it takes to unfuse from the Shadow, which Jiriaya demonstrated he could do fairly quickly against Pain/Konan. Except of course if it requires hand-seals, but everyone does hand-seals at crazy speeds nowadays, so not a huge issue there.



> Niku is on to something, in this scan [1], Jiraiya's hand is still flat despite the fact it's not a shadow anymore. There is enough evidence in that panel to suggest he just flattens himself.


Who says he doesn't flatten himself? He flattens himself and than fuses with the Shadow; the DB tells us how the Jutsu works and we saw the process simply in reverse.



> Jiraiya coming out of the shadow is a slow process, if you look at the scan he doesn't just pop out, it takes a few panels. And you can even see how his body shivers, which may indicate how delicate of a process it is.


I don't see how that's slow he popped out before Pain or Konan could do anything. Panels aren't the best indication of time.



> Based on this examantion, Gai who is a CQC fighter, is not in a position to give Jiraiya the time to activate what is possibly (based on Jiraiya coming out) a slow activating jutsu. Especially when Gai is one of the fastest ninja in the manga in gates, and knows his limits.


I don't see how your getting Jiriaya coming out of it being slow. On-top of that one must bare in mind that Jiriaya was not just utilizing the Shadow un-fuse, but another Jutsu at the same time, which prevented him from releasing all the way till the Jutsu was over.



> he Databook pretty much agrees with me. It makes sense Jiraiya can't breathe, because if he lets in air into his flat body, it's going to puff up. Also, the "One with the shadow" comment. Yeah, you pretty much are, since your body is ultra flat to mimic a shadow, and you have the chakra embedded to control the victim. It's not to be taken literally. It's like Bruce Lee saying "Become one with water".


Dude we literally see him being part of the Shadow though against Konan. And yes we should take the DB literally when it tells us how the Jutsu works, it's just hyperbole shit like, this Jutsu is an auto one-hit kill that we shouldn't take literally



> Nail in the coffin [2], he actually doesn't even become the persons shadow. It's Jiraiya's flat body


No this page where we literally see Jiriaya being part of the Shadow is the nail in the coffin;
Zabuza's comment

Also let me ask you something else. Konan knew it was the Toad Shadow Tech Jiriaya was using, so why then did she target the Amegakure Shinobi, instead of targeting Jiriaya, if he could be tangibly hit? 



> Gai's gates activate the moment he drops his hands from his forehead; the last example on the list it didn't even seem he bothered, he just went instant Morning Peacock. There is no charge time. It's Gates - Bam - Let's go. Believe me, activating gates is not going to be a problem in this fight. It's visually cool though when we see them activate.


The hands from his forehead is the charge time i'm talking about, as well as the explosion of energy as the Gates actually release tho.


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## Jad (Mar 9, 2014)

She probably didn't attack the shadows because she probably thought he was using a Transformation Jutsu to look like the victim. Then she remembered Jiraiya's toad silhouette jutsu and makes a comment about it. That's just one possible explanation

Also, you can't say for sure he is able to use the Toad Silhouette jutsu as fast as he does when he releases the jutsu. But I don't know also - it's off paneled one way or another. However, after he uses his fire-style jutsu, he doesn't immediately come out of the technique, he has to resize himself, and that's not instant. So if he has to do the reverse of that and flatten himself. Gai is not going to let that happen unless there is a great enough obstruction on an open battlefield.

However, I know for sure his not becoming a literal shadow. Look at the scan I show you, the 'shadow' you believe, is actually the shape of Jiraiya. If he actually became a 'Shadow' then it'd make more sense for Kishi to make him the victims exact shadow.

Yet in the Databook, Kishi keeps re-saying how Jiraiya becomes flat and uses chakra to control the movements of his victim. Which relates exactly to how the manga depicts the jutsu. Even the scan you bought up, the victims shadow is actually Jiraiya's entire body; the shape.

*Second nail in the coffin;* Why does the Databook specifically state Jiraiya cannot breathe or it will break his technique? I didn't know Shadows could breathe...It all makes sense, everything I am saying, if you agree that Jiraiya's body becoming flat is whats happening. It all adds up.​


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## 5th Lord Raikage (Mar 9, 2014)

I feel that Jiraiya's only chance would be to trap Guy in genjutsu. If he can pull that off he can finish with a max powered rasengan. I do believe Jiraiya is smart enough to pull this off but it wont be easy. I say the fight could go either way..

There really is no telling who would win regardless of the scenarios given.


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## Jad (Mar 9, 2014)

5th Lord Raikage said:


> I feel that Jiraiya's only chance would be to trap Guy in genjutsu. If he can pull that off he can finish with a max powered rasengan. I do believe Jiraiya is smart enough to pull this off but it wont be easy. I say the fight could go either way..
> 
> There really is no telling who would win regardless of the scenarios given.



But on an open battlefield? Seems highly unlikely any sort of trap or whatnot is going to be enough to stop Gai on an open battlefield. Especially when there is a high probability Gai is just going to witness what's happening with his own eyes. You might as well lay a sign over the trap and tell Gai to take the bait.


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## 5th Lord Raikage (Mar 9, 2014)

Jad said:


> But on an open battlefield? Seems highly unlikely any sort of trap or whatnot is going to be enough to stop Gai on an open battlefield. Especially when there is a high probability Gai is just going to witness what's happening with his own eyes. You might as well lay a sign over the trap and tell Gai to take the bait.



Guy can only blitz Jiraiya after opening at least 5 gates, which Jmam can counter with his Sage mode. I do believe If Guy went to the 6th and 7th gate levels then he would definitely be faster but those stages take time to reach. He cant obtain that power in a flash, not only that Guy uses that power as a last result because of the massive strain on the body.

This gives J enough time to finish the fight before then which he could definitely do. Jiraiya knows everything that Guy is capable of seeing him grow up with Kakashi and the others. J has a massive advantage on his side because of this.

Kakashi is weaker than J yet Kakashi is Guy's equal all the way up until 6th or 7th gate at least. Jman could finish Guy pretty quickly before then, if he doesnt then he is done for.


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## Jad (Mar 9, 2014)

5th Lord Raikage said:


> Guy can only blitz Jiraiya after opening at least 5 gates, which Jmam can counter with his Sage mode. I do believe If Guy went to the 6th and 7th gate levels then he would definitely be faster but those stages take time to reach. He cant obtain that power in a flash, not only that Guy uses that power as a last result because of the massive strain on the body.



Gai doesn't use gates as a last resort, he uses them in situations where they call for them, his done that from the very beginning of Part-2. Last resort was for Lee, not Gai.


 He opened them up when he knew there was only one option when he was underwater (yeah..I guess it's a last resort)
 He jumped to the 6th against Kisame on turtle Island, then to destroy all the sharks, went to 7th.
 He instantly used them against Obito to save Naruto.
 He jumped in the 6th Gate against the Juubi Jins
 You see him using them against the Gedo Mazou
 He and Lee used them instantly against Madara when they opened the 5th Gate
 Presumably used them against the Juublings; hence why he was exhausted with Lee next to him.
Also Gai's speed was already quick just with 2 Gates. He saved Kakashi from a point blank explosion by Juubidara of this size and magnitude [1]. Secondly, Gai instantly jumped to use Morning Peacock (a six-gated move) against the six-tails [][3]. There really is no charge time, he jumps into Gates very quickly.



> Jiraiya knows everything that Guy is capable of seeing him grow up with Kakashi and the others. J has a massive advantage on his side because of this.



Minato didn't even know Gai could open gates, and Jiraiya left before Minato even died. So there is really no proof to suggest Jiraiya knows about Gai - he probably only knows he can use Taijutsu.​


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

Jad said:


> She probably didn't attack the shadows because she probably thought he was using a Transformation Jutsu to look like the victim. Then she remembered Jiraiya's toad silhouette jutsu and makes a comment about it. That's just one possible explanation​




Konan: The Gamadaira Kageayatsuri no Jutsu...

Seems like Konan knew it was the Jutsu used all along. Also supported by the fact, that how else did Konan figure out the Amegakure Shinobi was an impostor. The only visual indication was that the Amegakure Shinobi's shadow took on the appearance of Jiriaya. So there was nothing else to go on but that Jiriaya was using that Jutsu. 



> Also, you can't say for sure he is able to use the Toad Silhouette jutsu as fast as he does when he releases the jutsu. But I don't know also - it's off paneled one way or another. However, after he uses his fire-style jutsu, he doesn't immediately come out of the technique, he has to resize himself, and that's not instant. So if he has to do the reverse of that and flatten himself. Gai is not going to let that happen unless there is a great enough obstruction on an open battlefield.


Jad I don't think the technique is instant. I think it takes time, but it's still be shown to happen quite quickly. Jiriaya was able to un-fuse half of his body and use a Katon technique before Konan could follow through with stabbing the Amegakure Shinobi. He than inhaled and popped back up, before Konan could make a move to attack him afterwards.

Than if we look at the hall-way scene, Jiriaya was able to pop out and use a Katon Technique, before HG-Realm could even physically turn around all the way:
Minato didn't even know

Kona and HG-Realm aren't Beast Mode like Gai in CQC, but Jiriaya did it against them before they were able to even physical respond more than slight motions, so it was much faster than them anyway. 



> However, I know for sure his not becoming a literal shadow. Look at the scan I show you, the 'shadow' you believe, is actually the shape of Jiraiya. If he actually became a 'Shadow' then it'd make more sense for Kishi to make him the victims exact shadow.


The Shadow taking on Jiriaya shapes, supports that he is becoming one w/ the Shadow, and therefore the Shadow is taking on the shape of Jiriaya. Honestly I don't even see how this can be possible debated when we are blatantly shown in the scans I posted that Jiraiya has become a Shadow and we are also blatantly told as much in the DB. I mean if your not going to take the words of the author in the DB or what the author visually draws in the manga. I don't see that as being fair to Jiriaya. I'm not intentionally ignoring how the manga is drawn or the authors words to underrate Gai's powers; in-fact I'm one of the few people who will actually say it's possible 8th-Gate could make Gai stronger than Hashirama, albeit briefly, due to what was stated about it in the manga cannon. Now i'm not saying your doing that intentionally, but it feels like that is the case; when DB/How Manga-Panels are drawn are ignored in-favor of a Troll  Niku theory



> Yet in the Databook, Kishi keeps re-saying how Jiraiya becomes flat .


The DB says "After putting chakra into the victim's shadow, the user makes their body as flat as possible. Then, by becoming one with the shadow". So yes they put chakra into the shadow and become flat first, but the description very clearly goes on to state that after that there is the third part of the process, that they become one with the shadow. something we clearly see in the manga cannon.

I mean in the Konan scene, we are shown a clear difference between Jiriaya's body simply being flat and Jiriaya body being part of the shadow:



Yellow Circle = Jiriaya Flat; Red Circle = Jiraiya part of the Shadow.



> and uses chakra to control the movements of his victim.


Okay and? Nara Clan does the same thing with putting chakra into their shadows and all that.



> Second nail in the coffin; Why does the Databook specifically state Jiraiya cannot breathe or it will break his technique? I didn't know Shadows could breathe...It all makes sense, everything I am saying, if you agree that Jiraiya's body becoming flat is whats happening. It all adds up.


Or that is specifically why breathing breaks the technique, because Shadows can't breath, and therefore Jiriaya has to un-fuse with the shadow to take a breath. Also how does it make sense that Jiriaya can talk through the Amegakure Shinobi w/o taking a breath? And really I could ask a-lot of these questions like how does someone whose body is flatten to that point breath, etc... So another part of this could very simply be that your asking for rational logic, when the author himself did not think things through fully.​


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## 5th Lord Raikage (Mar 9, 2014)

Jad said:


> Gai doesn't use gates as a last resort anymore, he uses them in situations where they call for them, his done that from the very beginning of Part-2. Last resort was for Lee, not Gai.
> 
> 
> He opened them up when he knew there was only one option when he was underwater (yeah..I guess it's a last resort)
> ...



Even so, the gates arnt unique to Guy. Its a technique any Ninja could learn.. if J felt as though it was a power he couldnt deal with he would just learn it himself. I say J comes out on top. He is just too unpredictable of an opponent for Guy to just run up on.

Check this out.. if I were Jman id immediately protect myself with needle jizzo. After that, while still using my hair as a barrier id summon massive chakra, and then use earth style to cover the entire area in the muddy swamp jutsu he used to trap Manda, completely trapping Guy. 

Then id enter sage mode for additional chakra, summon the cheif toad, release the mud from his feet only so he can jump in the air and toad flame bomb the entire area.

Or while creating the muddy swamp, J could use his oil jutsu to infuse the mud with making Guy much easier to hit with a fire style jutsu.

Of course this kind of technique is extreme but if we are talking about finishing a fight in an instant in a wide open field Id say thats a pretty good move. Guy has to run on solid surface, change that and you can win.. he cant stay afloat in the air.


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## Jad (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin, I honestly give up on our discussion. This debate over the Shadow shouldn't have taken this long. I just honestly beg to differ. I really do see the technique as Jiraiya just becoming flat, but there is just no convincing.​


5th Lord Raikage said:


> Even so, the gates arnt unique to Guy. Its a technique any Ninja could learn.. if J felt as though it was a power he couldnt deal with he would just learn it himself. I say J comes out on top. He is just too unpredictable of an opponent for Guy to just run up on.



Gates take an enormous amount of training to perform. Gai most likely forfeited any ninjutsu techniques he could have learned, by trying to master Gates. Plus that can't possibly be your reasoning? If Jiraiya didn't learn it, it must not be threatening.... Also Jiraiya isn't actually that unpredictable when you put him out in an open area.



> Check this out.. if I were Jman id immediately protect myself with needle jizzo. After that, while still using my hair as a barrier id summon massive chakra, and then use earth style to cover the entire area in the muddy swamp jutsu he used to trap Manda, completely trapping Guy.
> 
> Then id enter sage mode for additional chakra, summon the cheif toad, release the mud from his feet only so he can jump in the air and toad flame bomb the entire area.
> 
> ...



You know, using Yomi Numa is probably the worst thing Jiraiya can do at match start. If he does that, Gai instantly hits the gates to part the mud from his body, then he may just release Hirudora since his in the form. Sort of like when Kisame put Gai at the bottom of the ocean.

Also Gai can summon Ningame and use it as a stepping stone to get out of Yomi Numa, summoning it beneath him.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 9, 2014)

We have the DB say that it's just Jiraiya being flat and hiding in a shadow.

Of course the part HIDDEN IN THE SHADOW is going to look like a shadow.  What's it supposed to look like, not a shadow?  That would be poor hiding for shadow hiding.


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## 5th Lord Raikage (Mar 9, 2014)

Jad said:


> Turrin, I honestly give up on our discussion. This debate over the Shadow shouldn't have taken this long. I just honestly beg to differ. I really do see the technique as Jiraiya just becoming flat, but there is just no convincing.​
> 
> 
> Gates take an enormous amount of training to perform. Gai most likely forfeited any ninjutsu techniques he could have learned, by trying to master Gates. Plus that can't possibly be your reasoning? If Jiraiya didn't learn it, it must not be threatening.... Also Jiraiya isn't actually that unpredictable when you put him out in an open area.
> ...



Mastering the gates isnt as hard as you may think. A genin with terrible chakra control mastered 5 of the total 8 at the age of 13. Mastering 2 more by Jonin rank is more than possible. J is beyond jonin rank so he could learn this if he wanted too, anyone could.

Next, even if Gai part the water.. its not the same as parting mud which is stronger and tougher. Yes he could break free using the gates but he would already have been covered in some of the oiled mud which is all part of the plan. All thats left to do now is set him ablaze with fire style. If he uses Hirudora, J who has made it into the air at this point (on cheif's back ) will just counter that with toad flame bomb. Guy dies in an instant, even if the flames take time to hit.. the heat it self could set off his oiled body. He is done for.


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## Jad (Mar 9, 2014)

5th Lord Raikage said:


> Mastering the gates isnt as hard as you may think. A genin with terrible chakra control mastered 5 of the total 8 at the age of 13. Mastering 2 more by Jonin rank is more than possible. J is beyond jonin rank so he could learn this if he wanted too, anyone could.



Kakashi was absolutely amazed at how Rock Lee could open the gates, even so much as calling him a genuis. Jiraiya doesn't know the regime that is needed to access the gates and utilise them. It seems only Gai holds that knowledge, and in-part Kakashi who can open one gate momentarily. Also you have to take into account, Gai has moves that aren't exclusive to gates. So while your thinking "If gates were such a big problem" - you have to take into account the moves Gai can whip out, that don't come included with the gates.



> Next, even if Gai part the water.. its not the same as parting mud which is stronger and tougher. Yes he could break free using the gates but he would already have been covered in some of the oiled mud which is all part of the plan. All thats left to do now is set him ablaze with fire style. If he uses Hirudora, J who has made it into the air at this point (on cheif's back ) will just counter that with toad flame bomb. Guy dies in an instant, even if the flames take time to hit.. the heat it self could set off his oiled body. He is done for.



You really think Hirudora's travel speed is that slow huh?

Jiraiya hits him with Yomi Numa, Gai instantly hits the Gates (removing mud off his person) and Hirudora follows very quickly after (if he does want to). Which is a possibility if he sees a big Toad entering the fray.

You want to know how fast Hirudora can travel? Madara could not finish his Sasuno swing [1] before Hirudora hit him [2] from a distance (judge for yourself) and dragged his Sasuno another good distance (judge for yourself) in one panel. Hirudora travels very fast. Much faster then Jiraiya going through all the motions of summoning a toad - telling it to setup a ninjutsu technique - and then jumping up in the sky and firing a technique. You also missed the part where the Hirudora explodes.​


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

@Jad
If you have a different Opinion that's fine, but i got w/ what the DB tells me and the manga shows, me so, yeah....can't see Gai winning this one. At least until 8th-Gate.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> We have the DB say that it's just Jiraiya being flat and hiding in a shadow.
> 
> Of course the part HIDDEN IN THE SHADOW is going to look like a shadow.  What's it supposed to look like, not a shadow?  That would be poor hiding for shadow hiding.


DB also says that he becomes one w/ the Shadow, but I guess your ignoring that Part POW. And Konan's paper is also within the shadow, yet it doesn't suddenly take on qualities of the Shadow. We even see a stark difference between when Jiriaya is in the Shadow, but flat, and when jiriaya is fused with the Shadow, in terms of how he's drawn in that panel. The only other possibly explanation is that Jiriaya has some type of camouflage Jutsu he uses on-top of being flat to take on the exact qualities visually of the Shadow, but I believe Konan would have mentioned that and if that were the case Jiriaya would suddenly becoming very OP.


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## 5th Lord Raikage (Mar 9, 2014)

Jad said:


> Kakashi was absolutely amazed at how Rock Lee could open the gates, even so much as calling him a genuis. Jiraiya doesn't know the regime that is needed to access the gates and utilise them. It seems only Gai holds that knowledge, and in-part Kakashi who can open one gate momentarily. Also you have to take into account, Gai has moves that aren't exclusive to gates. So while your thinking "If gates were such a big problem" - you have to take into account the moves Gai can whip out, that don't come included with the gates.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you kidding? All of the kids were called geniuses for doing things they shouldnt be.

Also, Madara was caught off guard, thats the only reason he was hit. 

Also, i said that the chief toad would fire himself into the air, by this point J is already setting up his toad flame bomb, it would meet with Guy's Hiru and guy would be overpowered. Once again, it takes time to enter the 7 gates, when Guy showed up against Tobi.. he had already had it prepared. The 7 gates nearly kills the body, he cant turn it off and on like some tailed beast mode. The lower gates? Yeah sure.. but not 7 which is his highest level of power.

No matter how you slice it Guy would be dead after this. Even if he summoned Ningame, all that turtle would do would drastically reduce his speed, he would also be covered in oil since he is a stepping stone making a much bigger and slower target for J to hit. Also, you are betting everything on trying to finish this all in one blow as if Guy could do all of this before returning back to the mud trap.

Unfortunately he cant, not against a prepared Jiraiyah. Even if J didnt have time to fire of his fire jutsu, Chief wouldnt let such a dangerous Hiru come so close, knowing it would serverly injure him. He'd fire off a max water bullet, drastically reducing the power of Hiru if not canceling the attack.

Now as Guy falls below, J hits him with a fire style, game over.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 9, 2014)

> DB also says that he becomes one w/ the Shadow



Don't cast aspersion upon the veracity of my literary comprehension.

He becomes one with it by laying into it.  Remember that we're reading a translation of Japanese text.  Becoming one with doesn't mean he's literally turned his body into a shadow anymore than advice saying that you should become one with the sword in mind and body means you turn into a physical katana.  It means he's laying so flush and thin with the shadow it's like he's one with the shadow.  So that you can't tell where the shadow ends, and where Jiraiya begins.  Which would be why he becomes visible when he sits up.  That part of him is no longer being hidden.  Hidden as in meaning the shadow is cast on top on top of him



> The only other possibly explanation is that Jiriaya has some type of camouflage Jutsu he uses on-top of being flat to take on the exact qualities visually of the Shadow



It's almost as if Jiraiya is using a specific jutsu to hide in the shadow that Konan's paper isn't.  Look, the part of him that looks all shadowy is because his flat self is hidden underneath the shadow.  Think of it like laying down a piece of white paper, and then laying another piece of black paper on top of it, so that it covers the first.  The first paper has become hidden by the paper beneath it.  The white paper has "become one" with the black paper.  If you start pulling out and pulling up the first piece of paper from underneath, so that it folds upwards, you'll suddenly notice that there's white paper there, but only the parts of it that aren't still flat on the table, and covered by the first one.  It will look as if the white paper is peeling up from the shadows of the black paper.

Get some papercraft and test it out for yourself.  It's essentially Jiraiya's jutsu.  Then have fun and write greeting cards, or make some paper cranes, or do some crayon drawings, because you already have the materials out and those kind of things are really fun.  It'd be a waste to just put them back without playing.  Maybe grab a niece or nephew or younger sibling, it'll make their day.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Don't cast aspersion upon the veracity of my literary comprehension.
> 
> He becomes one with it by laying into it.  Remember that we're reading a translation of Japanese text.  Becoming one with doesn't mean he's literally turned his body into a shadow anymore than advice saying that you should become one with the sword in mind and body means you turn into a physical katana.  It means he's laying so flush and thin with the shadow it's like he's one with the shadow.  So that you can't tell where the shadow ends, and where Jiraiya begins.  Which would be why he becomes visible when he sits up.  That part of him is no longer being hidden.  Hidden as in meaning the shadow is cast on top on top of him


Or he fuses with the shadow, which is the much more logical interpretation of the text, rather than going out of our way to try and find excuses for it. 



> It's almost as if Jiraiya is using a specific jutsu to hide in the shadow that Konan's paper isn't. Look, the part of him that looks all shadowy is because his flat self is hidden underneath the shadow. Think of it like laying down a piece of white paper, and then laying another piece of black paper on top of it, so that it covers the first. The first paper has become hidden by the paper beneath it. The white paper has "become one" with the black paper. If you start pulling out and pulling up the first piece of paper from underneath, so that it folds upwards, you'll suddenly notice that there's white paper there, but only the parts of it that aren't still flat on the table, and covered by the first one. It will look as if the white paper is peeling up from the shadows of the black paper


Problem is Shadows don't work this way. Shadows are transparent and you can see objects that the Shadows are being cast on; just like you can see Konan's paper and the stone ground beneath the shadow. And that's another thing Jiriaya himself takes on this transparent quality when using the Jutsu, which is why we can still see the stone floor through his body. So again ether Jiriaya actually is becoming the Shadow or he is some how using a camouflage Jutsu.

Him simply flattening his body is not going to create the effect were seeing here.

Hime becoming one with the shadow is supported by the DB's explanation, the fact that Konan attacks the Amegakure Shinobi, instead of attacking Jiriaya directly, and the fact that Jiriaya has never shown the ability to camouflage himself in such a way w/o the shadow; so I go with the explanation that Jiraiya becomes part of the Shadow. And honestly I do not see why that is so hard to believe

Edit Another problem with your explanation, is that Jiriaya's body should be much larger than the Shadow given off by the Amegakure fodder during many instances, especially with the odd shape, w/ the Scroll on his back; yet the Shadow conforms perfectly to the size and shape of Jiriaya's body, thee only explanation for that would be Jiriaya has fused w/ the shadow, becoming the Shadow itself, rather than him simply laying underneath the area the shadow is being casted on.

Edit 2: Also look at how Studio Perriot depicts the Jutsu in the Anime, with Shadow conforming to Jiriaya's exact proportions and Jiriaya taking on the same transparency as a Shadow:


Not that I put a huge amount of stock into the anime, but this presents a very clear image of what I believe is being drawn in the manga, and at the very least demonstrates that my view-point on the subject is not so outlandish that others did not interpret it the same, as studio Perriot clearly did.

Edit 3: Another problem with the idea that he did not become part of the Shadow, is where are Jiriya's feet in all of this, we very clearly see his legs simply trail off in straight lines until reaching the body where the shadow stops, just like a normal shadow would. So if Jiriaya is not actually a shadow at that point, where does his feet go exactly; we should see the outline of them the same way we do w/ Jiriaya's other features:


2


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## Jad (Mar 9, 2014)

5th Lord Raikage said:


> Are you kidding? All of the kids were called geniuses for doing things they shouldnt be.
> 
> Also, Madara was caught off guard, thats the only reason he was hit.
> 
> ...



You aren't really making sense, because it's hard to understand what you're trying to communicate with me without scans - are you sure you're not getting mixed up with the anime (some new people to the battledome do that).

Anyways, how does activating gates take time? I showed you a panel of Gai going into 6 Gates almost instantly. 7th Gate, he explodes with chakra, but that doesn't stop him from still moving with the Chakra coming out of his body. Nothing suggests otherwise.

I showed you the speed of Hirudora, that's what I want you to understand, the speed was so fast Madara could not finish a point blank hit at Naruto. Also Madara, while facing Naruto, was also facing Gai and Hachibi. Sure, he wasn't focusing on Gai, but check this out.

Madara was able to notice Ei at V2-Shunshin come from his side when Mei attacked him, and he was still able to react and block the attack. However in this scenario, Madara was serious against Naruto [1 ]. Yet he could not do anything to a giant tiger flying at him from a distance, that he would have seen and reacted to, had it been any slower. That's the speed Hirudora was going at.

So while Jiraiya uses Yomni Numa on Gai - his activated the 7th Gate. You think Jiraiya can avoid a 7th Gate blitz at base. The guy was moving faster then V2 Ei, look at Juubidara's expression [2]. Compare that to how he pretty much nonchantly reacts to Ei's movement [3]. This is espcially a problem if Gai goes 7 Gates and combines it with Hirudora. No way Jiraiya has the speed to do all what you said without it exploding.

In fact, how is it that Hirudora is going to get overpowered? It explodes!​


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## LostSelf (Mar 9, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I'm with DBZ abridged.  Frieza doesn't know what a minute is, or how long it lasts.



You can call me noob, but i don't know what abridged is. Or maybe i do, but in spanish. However i always thought Akira was using general minutes. Just like how aliens can talk our language, etc.

Aside from that, one part says Jiraiya's jutsu is Kamui type and the other it's just a hidding justu that controls the victim until Jiraiya stops holding his breath? I go with the latter.


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## SSMG (Mar 9, 2014)

Gai while in 6th gate at most just tanked the most destructive attack in the manga... how exactly does jiraiya hurt him?


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## Nikushimi (Mar 9, 2014)

Thanks for deleting my posts, AS.

Can't have peoples' feelings getting hurt when they're proven wrong, now can we? 



Turrin said:


> Dude we go w/ common sense until shown otherwise.



The Jutsu defies common sense so that definitely isn't what you're using.

There is nothing in the source material which suggests Jiraiya cannot be attacked while in that form. Nothing.

And there is nothing in the real world to suggest it, either, because there is no precedent for people flattening their bodies into shadows.

So what you call "common sense" can only be a product of your imagination in this case.

Somebody already posted the databook entry (I was saving it to make you look bad after you were done with a tl;dr), which states that Jiraiya holds his breath and thins out his body to hide in the shadow.

I don't know why you're trying to use "common sense" as your crutch in the first place when talking about the same manga with an entire family that can use shadows to physically attack people.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> The Jutsu defies common sense so that definitely isn't what you're using.


Why am I not surprised that Nikushimi doesn't understand the function of using common-sense when discussing shit in the Naruto Battle-dome. Oh yeah that's right this is the same poster that believes Deidara stomps Kitsuchi + Darui at the same time, and should not be taken seriously under any circumstances.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Why am I not surprised that Nikushimi doesn't understand the function of using common-sense when discussing shit in the Naruto Battle-dome. Oh yeah that's right this is the same poster that believes Deidara stomps Kitsuchi + Darui at the same time, and should not be taken seriously under any circumstances.



This is why I need to be hard on Turrin, AS.

This shit right here.

Turrin, you are wrong. Everyone thinks you are wrong. Your so-called "common sense" isn't common to anyone but you. No one agrees with you and you have like three people right now (including myself) telling you you're wrong. Now please provide evidence for what you are claiming or shut up. The butterflies in your head don't paint this manga.

EDIT: And Deidara doesn't stomp Kitsuchi and Darui, he one-shots them. Don't put words in my mouth.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 9, 2014)

> Or he fuses with the shadow, which is the much more logical interpretation of the text, rather than going out of our way to try and find excuses for it.



UHHH.

Logic.  Yes.  Let's go with that for a second.

Why does Jiraiya hold his breath and make himself flat if he has the ability to physically tun his body into incorporeal shadow stuffs?

He wouldn't need to.  His body would be shadow.  He wouldn't need to hold his breath, because he wouldn't have a human form.  He'd be shadow stuffs.  He'd be like Naruto when he henge'd into the fuma shuriken.  That is a physical transformation.  

Kishi goes out of his way to make a databook entry telling us that, No!  He didn't just become a shadow!  What he actually does is lay himself flat, and hold his breath, and blah blah blah.

If Jiraiya could just become a shadow, why would he go through all that hassle of making himself flat?  He wouldn't have to.  Shika's shadows don't breath, shuriken don't breath, shadows don't have lungs, shuriken don't have lung, and Naruto just straight up morphed into a shuriken.  He didn't contort his body into a shuriken like shapes over a fuma and become one with the shuriken.

I don't see why we have to analyse the structure and placement of a person's feet to prove he is or isn't the physical shadow.  He's already huffle puffing his body his body down to the width of paper.  It's not an excuse to say he folds himself up a bit to keep in the boundaries.  In fact, it's simpler and easier to do so, and probably more likely than Jiraiya going through great efforts and supplementary steps that he shouldn't have to if he were a real shadow. 

Or alternatively that Kishi drew a panel of Jiraiya in the shadow, and didn't meticulously consider dynamics of feet.  Kinda the same way he doesn't draw everything properly to scale.  That seems pretty sensible to me.  

The insinuations that you're using logic and others are not, and you're using common sense, and others aren't, aren't needed or appreciated, and frankly border of flaming.  I acknowledge that you have a mountain or words and details to support your positions, even when I find them utterly unconvincing, and your positions tenuous at best, and I admire the hard work you put into it.  (For the record I think you're on to stuff about Kushina.)  But if you don't even feel that level of respect for other posters, at least try not to make it sound as if they are lacking any cognitive structural functions.  Believe it or not, Turrin, there are very smart people in this world who employ the same methods of sense and logic that disagree with each other, and it's not because one side is being stupid, disingenuous, ill-informed, or remaining willfully ignorant.  I'd like it if Niku were nicer too but he won't listen to me.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> UHHH.
> 
> Logic.  Yes.  Let's go with that for a second.
> 
> ...


Or that's just part of how Kishi has decided the Jutsu works. I can pose similar questions about many other Jutsu.



> I don't see why we have to analyse the structure and placement of a person's feet to prove he is or isn't the physical shadow. He's already huffle puffing his body his body down to the width of paper. It's not an excuse to say he folds himself up a bit to keep in the boundaries. In fact, it's simpler and easier to do so, and probably more likely than Jiraiya going through great efforts and supplementary steps that he shouldn't have to if he were a real shadow.


The problem with this is that he is not staying within the boundaries of the Shadow being cast, as I've alread shown and explained he is defining the boundaries, to precisely fit his shape/frame/form.



> Or alternatively that Kishi drew a panel of Jiraiya in the shadow, and didn't meticulously consider dynamics of feet. Kinda the same way he doesn't draw everything properly to scale. That seems pretty sensible to me.


He drew the shadow too precisely fit Jiriaya's shape/form/frame, but did not consider he was doing it. Even I don't think Kishi is that disconnected from reality.

Also you didn't answer me about the translucent effect and the feet issue.



> The insinuations that you're using logic and others are not, and you're using common sense, and others aren't, aren't needed or appreciated, and frankly border of flaming. I acknowledge that you have a mountain or words and details to support your positions, even when I find them utterly unconvincing, and your positions tenuous at best, and I admire the hard work you put into it. (For the record I think you're on to stuff about Kushina.) But if you don't even feel that level of respect for other posters, at least try not to make it sound as if they are lacking any cognitive structural functions.


Not respecting certain arguments is not the same as not respecting certain posters. I personally find the idea of bringing Japanese philosophy about being "one with the blade" to try and justify not taking the text at face-value, to be a reaching argument, that seems built on trying to find any excuse possible to interpret point-blank statements alternatively than their base meaning. Basically I do not think Kishimoto is sitting at his desk well aware he's writing this for a world-wide-young-adult audience, and saying I might as well throw in some Japanese philosophy into what is otherwise supposed to be a very simplistic entry in book to explain how Jutsu works. I really do not find that logical. However just because I find that specific argument of yours to be poor, doesn't mean I don't respect you as a poster; you seem to have this impression that I don't respect you ever since I stated that one of your arguments is not factually correct, but I repeat that is not the case. There are weak arguments and there are stronger arguments from all good posters; I consider this one of your weaker arguments, that is all; doesn't mean I don't admire your stronger ones. 

The fact that i'm willing to write a long-detailed post, providing scans, etc... should tell you that I respect you enough as a poster to do so. For example you don't see me doing that w/ Nikushimi, since I think he is trolling 99% of the time, these days, and makes totally disingenuous points that he, himself does not actually believe to be true. So there is no point in even being remotely serious when responding to him, unless it's one of the 1% of the time, instances where he actually is trying to hold a real discussion. But I digress; point is have nothing against your posting history and certainly don't have anything against someone I never met (or talked to) outside the forums; I'm sure your a perfectly nice guy/gal and we'd get along fine outside the forums; I'm sure Nikushimi is a nice enough outside the forums too, so long as you could drag him away from writing his Itachi doujinshi. 



> Believe it or not, Turrin, there are very smart people in this world who employ the same methods of sense and logic that disagree with each other, and it's not because one side is being stupid, disingenuous, ill-informed, or remaining willfully ignorant


POW, If you disagree w/ me I don't mind. I just don't find this argument very logical and really i'm not trying to be a dick here, but it's actually kind of humorous if you think about it. I mean way of the sword philosophy, there is no way Kishi puts that type of effort into the Data-books, there is just no way, considering the dumb hyperobolic nonsense he throws in there like Amaterasu-Hotter than the Son. This isn't some deep philosophical outlet for him, it's a quick way to make cash-money. I also tend to believe the extent of Kishi's philosophical knowledge and introspective ability amounts to him having watched Pokemon the First Movie, but hey that's just me. So to me this idea that Kishi is some wise guru sitting in a temple, smoking a iron-dragon pipe, while musing about the way of the sword, in Jiraiya's Jutsu DB entry, is just a very funny imagine. Again no disrespect.

In summation I respect you bro/sister/whatever 
But not Niku lol


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## Mithos (Mar 9, 2014)

Jiraiya should win.

If Gai activates gates, Jiraiya will have time to mount a defense before Gai can blitz him. The activation of Gates is not instantaneous and we've seen Shouten Kisame react to Gai's 7th-gated speed as well as the real Kisame cast jutsu. 

If Gai activates Gates, Jiraiya could:

I. Create a protective barrier with his hair jutsus. He can make his hair extend fair from his body and quickly [1], as we saw against Konan, and he can manipulate it into various shapes [2][3][4] to grab, trap or stab his enemies. Gai cannot rush in to attack or he's going to run right into steel spikes, which at such high speeds would be devastating.

II. Summoning. Jiraiya summons often and it's what he's known for as the 'Toad Sage.' Gamaken has a shield [5], which could be raised to protect against a blitz attempt. Jiraiya should have time to cast another jutsu before Gai can get around the defense, especially since Gai's attack should push Jiraiya and Gamaken back. Jiraiya could also summon Gamabunta who can spit numerous water cannonballs [6] at once. The AoE and power should be a successful deterent to push Gai back; as should the large AoE of 'Toad Flame Bombs' [7]. 

III. Feints. Jiraiya is intelligent, tactical and tricky. Although  I don't believe his 'Toad Silhouette' jutsu will protect him from harm, he can however use it defensively. For example he can create shadow clones which can act as an anti-blitz defense as well - he has to choose a target - and create a distraction to merge with the shadow of one of the clones. And after Gai goes in to attack a clone he could open himself up to being counter-attacked by Jiraiya coming out of the shadow. 

IV. Yomi Numa. I've never been a fan of 'Yomi Numa, GG' and I don't believe it'll be a dangerous weapon in this match. However, Jiraiya could use it to buy time. It will take Gai some time to get out of the swamp, and that gives Jiraiya time to cast another jutsu I've listed above. 

V. Hiding/Barriers. Jiraiya has a barrier that is essentially his own 'territory' [8] that can be used against opponent who 'charge in' - which is actually what Gai does when in Gates. It was used in Sage Mode but I don't believe it's a sage art so I think Jiraiya can use it in base. Jiraya can also hide in toads [9]. Obviously this won't protect him if Gai sees him do it, but if he blocks LoS or uses other feints and tricks he may be able to escape into the toad and have it hide somewhere. 

Jiraiya has plenty of options in this fight and is not going to be blitzed off the bat when Gai activates the Gates.


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## LostSelf (Mar 9, 2014)

Except that Gai's gates activation are almost instantaneous as he activated it to save Naruto from Madara's swing from a considerable distance and the speed he displayed is much better than his fight with Kisame, and faster than Jiraiya's defense methods, let alone from this distance.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 9, 2014)

The sword stuff is just generally how the Japanese, and many Asian languages work.  They're more representative than literal.  Japanese itself has a reputation for being notoriously hard to translate, and due to structure, Japanese people often aren't sure how to pronounce the names of people they read in the paper.  Gender neutral pronouns get us things like not even knowing that Deidara wasn't a girl when PII came out.  Even skilled translators interpret writing different ways.  

You should be familiar with the various way the Itachi and Kisame vs Base Jiraiya get translated, and the same thing has happened with statements Jiraiya made about Tsunade.  (Her being equally skilled in combat and she is in healing takes a more sensitive interpreter, and won't typically be found in rushed weekly translations or lesser scanulations.)  These are simple statements, and not at all instances of Kishi posing as a wizened philosopher inside her hermit cave, gathering his sage chakra to pen the data books.  They're simply inherent nature of Japanese language and translations.  Which is why when I read things, sometimes I find it works out to take everything at its first impression, in a 1+1+1 approach to reading, but mostly I take the preponderance of meanings.  I'm certain that I _could_ use either approach to formulate an explanation, but I don't believe that's the way it works.  At least, that's not the way I've done it, and been taught to do it, when reading translated Greek or Latin or French, and while Naruto does not rank with the works of Lock or Aristotle, and anyone who says they do should be shot twice for good measure, the same principles used to understand intention and meaning from translated texts should apply.  

That's how I've been able to spot translation errors despite not knowing the language, with my main example being the Gaara vs Madara's Susano, where the images and translation lead us to believe that lightened sand could pierce through Susano.  The sentence was quite clear, but structure and wording was "off", and it didn't quite seem to match what we knew and the spirit of the chapter.  So I determined that it was likely a translation error that wasn't giving us the full story and gave up, and a few months later a better scan was uploaded and proved, indeed, the translation left out words, and the mystery was solved.  (Gaara used sand by Madara's feet)  Though I should say that in the mean time, theories of Susano's selective permeability were collected, and theories that Onoki's lightening decreased the mass to it could slip through, or ideas of gaps in the armor all came out, and they all sufficiently explained how the sand got it but other things didn't.  All were good theories, but ultimately only given light through errors in data.  This is the difference between what we can do, and what Pierriot can do.  If they have imperfect information, they are forced to come up with something using their limited and flawed information, and bang out something to show on t.v.  It can be good, it can be what Kishi thought - which may not be as good as the stuff they could make up, or it could be like the sand vs susano theories.  

That's why I don't think considering the nature of the language is a weak argument at all, or a weak view to take while reading even a data book.  It may not be the best way to read any singular example, but it's usually true that it's the best to use in most cases, and knowing when is where discretion and experience comes in.  The thing I like about discussing and reading Naruto, is that it gives me a chance to practice these skills in a safe setting, because ultimately, it doesn't matter if I'm wrong about a children's manga.  But it counts more if I misunderstand or disseminate false information on Niche.  Though like, still not a lot because it's philosophy, but whatever.  I could get a bad grade on my essay. The downside is Kishi a whole lot more lolwhatever than people who write and work to be logically consistent, and that kinda makes it hard, but balancing the line between solid mechanics and feats with narrative and portrayal and storytelling, that he's also bad it, is half the fun.  I'm glad you don't think little of me.  I thought you just wrote essays for all the girls.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The sword stuff is just generally how the Japanese, and many Asian languages work.  They're more representative than literal.  Japanese itself has a reputation for being notoriously hard to translate, and due to structure, Japanese people often aren't sure how to pronounce the names of people they read in the paper.  Gender neutral pronouns get us things like not even knowing that Deidara wasn't a girl when PII came out.  Even skilled translators interpret writing different ways.
> 
> You should be familiar with the various way the Itachi and Kisame vs Base Jiraiya get translated, and the same thing has happened with statements Jiraiya made about Tsunade.  (Her being equally skilled in combat and she is in healing takes a more sensitive interpreter, and won't typically be found in rushed weekly translations or lesser scanulations.)  These are simple statements, and not at all instances of Kishi posing as a wizened philosopher inside her hermit cave, gathering his sage chakra to pen the data books.  They're simply inherent nature of Japanese language and translations.  Which is why when I read things, sometimes I find it works out to take everything at its first impression, in a 1+1+1 approach to reading, but mostly I take the preponderance of meanings.  I'm certain that I _could_ use either approach to formulate an explanation, but I don't believe that's the way it works.  At least, that's not the way I've done it, and been taught to do it, when reading translated Greek or Latin or French, and while Naruto does not rank with the works of Lock or Aristotle, and anyone who says they do should be shot twice for good measure, the same principles used to understand intention and meaning from translated texts should apply.
> 
> ...


Okay, now this is fantastic bit of writing here, and I really like a-lot of the sentiments. Discussing Naruto to practice the skills that your referring to here, is exactly why I like to visit the forums myself, so I can perfectly emphasize with this. Also I'll admit that when presented in this light your point seems a-lot more valid to me, than it originally seemed. With that said, while I appreciate that your trying to rationalize the DB-Text by interpreting it through the lens of japanese culture, I think taking into account the cultural context of the text, does not take into account the full scope of the work, since the manga also utilizes genre specific artistic techniques/styles to represent the meaning of the text. In the case of the example we have here, Kishimoto employs a very specific shading technique, to represent the transparency of Shadows:



Kishimoto utilizes this same technique when drawing out Jiriaya's body while he's utilizing the Toad Shadow-Technique:


This lends credence to the literalist interpretation of the DB-text, as Kishimoto is going out of his way to make a stylistic choice to use the same technique he has always used to demonstrate shadow transparency within the manga. Even further support by Kishi applying the same artistic technique, that is he uses to represent the  stretching and malformation that takes place in a shadows around the person's feet, on Jiriaya's image in the aforementioned panel:



It's these visual queues, that employees of Studio Perriot almost certainly based their animated visual representation of Jiriaya's Shadow-Technique on and why their represtantion of the technique matches so perfectly with not just my own interpretation, but the literalist interpretation of the DB-Text. Further, I believe it should be acknowledge that Studio Perriot employees are specifically trained/educated in the visual arts, so they'd know how deceptive certain visual aesthetics can be, yet clearly possessed enough confidence in their interpretation of these visual queues to leave absolutely no room for negotiation in their representation, blatantly animating Jiriaya as a transparent shadow, when they very easily could have opted to animate Jiraiya without the transparency and no one would have thought twice about it:


Besides the stylistic choices made with the art, there is also the choices Kishimoto made from a story perspective. Kishimoto specifically has Konan indicate she's aware that Jiriaya utilized Gamadaira: Kage Ayatsuri no Jutsu and in-fact it is implied that Konan's recognition of the technique is what allowed her to pin-point Jiriaya's precise location despite his attempts at deception; yet she makes the choice to attack the Iwagakure-Fodder. If Jiraiya was truly just a big-flat target on the ground, than Konan made a devastating strategic blunder targeting the Iwagakure-shinobi instead of Jiriaya directly [or not targeting both of them], as she could have ended the fight right there. I realize that these strategic blunders are not all that uncommon among Naruto characters, but this is certainly not something you'd expect from a character such as Konan, who has quite clearly been depict as someone who devotes a great deal of effort into divining every possible strategical application of the intel she possess on her enemies; see Konan vs Obito. Beyond that if Jiraiya is indeed a simple giant flat target, I think that begs the question of why he would use a technique, with such a crippling weakness to infiltrate the territory of someone he not only believed was the Akatsuki Leader, but latter suggested he had guessed was indeed one of his 3 prior students, who would know the ins and outs of his techniques. That too seems like a major OOC strategic blunder. With that said, I realize there are certain limits of this internal logic, and we can alway go lolz it's Kishimoto, but assuming we do not fall back on this as enticing as it may be, and at least entertain the idea that Kishimoto didn't mess up big time, this line of reasoning certainly further supports the literalist interpretation of the DB-text.

Anyway, that's all I got to say [I know a-lot right lol], whether you agree or not I hope this at least makes my perspective more understandable to you. 



> I thought you just wrote essays for all the girls.


Naw, just the girls with a certain pizzaz, like yourself; unfortunately Niku's lost that special something lol


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 9, 2014)

The thing I have to the artistic choices, is that shadows in Naruto "cover."  If you look at your own examples, the shadows cover and obscure the ground, even when they're over other objects or cracks. That's how Kishi draws shadows.

When Shikamaru uses his shadow hand to strangle , you can't really see her clothing underneath the hand, because it's "blanketed" in a shadow.  The thicker the shadow, the more it's obstructed.  Her skirt has a yin/yang symbol where the hand if covering, if it's hard to make out.

So that's why I have no problem with Jiraiya using a shadow as a blanket, and if he's paper thin, and shrouded in shadow, then the whole thing is only going to appear to Konan or anyone as a guy with a thicker shadow.  So yeah, I can see what you're saying with the shadow art choice, but I don't see that as an strike.  I see it more as something to support the shadow blanket interpretation.


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## 5th Lord Raikage (Mar 9, 2014)

Jad said:


> You aren't really making sense, because it's hard to understand what you're trying to communicate with me without scans - are you sure you're not getting mixed up with the anime (some new people to the battledome do that).
> 
> Anyways, how does activating gates take time? I showed you a panel of Gai going into 6 Gates almost instantly. 7th Gate, he explodes with chakra, but that doesn't stop him from still moving with the Chakra coming out of his body. Nothing suggests otherwise.
> 
> ...



Ok Ok Jad you win, I can see this isnt really going anywhere. You can believe Guy is stronger all you want but if you could sit down and talk with Kishi one on one he would tell you otherwise.

But its fine, believe in your flip a coin theory. Nice debate.. enjoyed it. Later!

Jman for the win!


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The thing I have to the artistic choices, is that shadows in Naruto "cover."  If you look at your own examples, the shadows cover and obscure the ground, even when they're over other objects or cracks. That's how Kishi draws shadows.
> 
> When Shikamaru uses his shadow hand to strangle , you can't really see her clothing underneath the hand, because it's "blanketed" in a shadow.  The thicker the shadow, the more it's obstructed.  Her skirt has a yin/yang symbol where the hand if covering, if it's hard to make out.
> 
> So that's why I have no problem with Jiraiya using a shadow as a blanket, and if he's paper thin, and shrouded in shadow, then the whole thing is only going to appear to Konan or anyone as a guy with a thicker shadow.  So yeah, I can see what you're saying with the shadow art choice, but I don't see that as an strike.  I see it more as something to support the shadow blanket interpretation.


I can see Tayuya's clothing underneath the shadow fine and It's even more apparent in the Viz-Volume I have as it's much better quality; obviously lol. In the case of Jiriaya there are several things that are counter intuitive to this explanation. Firstly as I have extrapolated on in my previous post there is the issue of how Kishimoto choose to draw Jiraiya's legs/feat which is not conducive to the shadow blanket idea. Secondly the fact that the Shadow itself is made to match conform to Jiriaya, rather than Jiriaya simply hiding within the shape of a pre-existing shadows, is also not conducive to that hypothesis. Further there is the fact that the translucence is represented as extending through Jiriaya, not just casting over him; this can be observed in the fact that we can see portions of the ground through Jiriaya; the white areas in how Jiraiya is drawn/shaded. This would not be possible if Jiriaya was simply hiding with the shadow cast over him as instead of the white spots representing the ground we'd instead see Jiriaya's clothing as we can see Tayuya's. Finally while you might disagree, as I extrapolate in my prior post, the strategic choices of both individuals involved become nonsensical if we take the shadow blanket interpretation; though again I admit you could say lol-kishi, but I still believe is worth taking some time to consider. 

Those are pretty much my issues with shadow-blanket interpretation.



Nikushimi said:


> This is why I need to be hard on Turrin, AS.... Ramble...Turrin won't take me seriously...Ramble....
> .


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## Veracity (Mar 9, 2014)

Jad said:


> You aren't really making sense, because it's hard to understand what you're trying to communicate with me without scans - are you sure you're not getting mixed up with the anime (some new people to the battledome do that).
> 
> Anyways, how does activating gates take time? I showed you a panel of Gai going into 6 Gates almost instantly. 7th Gate, he explodes with chakra, but that doesn't stop him from still moving with the Chakra coming out of his body. Nothing suggests otherwise.
> 
> ...



Ja weren't you the one that argued Ay being in V1 when Madara reacted to him ?


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## Mercurial (Mar 9, 2014)

It's futile to make all this fuss for nothing. Jiraiya hasn't the reactions and the speed to avoid the fact that Gai simply blitzes him. And he can't react or do anything that matters against Hiru Tora. 

BTW: Deidara solos Kitsuchi + Darui and Ei was at his max speed when Madara cockblocked him. It wouldn't have make any sense for him to complain about his speed not being enough to surprise Madara if he could have still amped his max speed to a whole different level.


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## Veracity (Mar 9, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> It's futile to make all this fuss for nothing. Jiraiya hasn't the reactions and the speed to avoid the fact that Gai simply blitzes him. And he can't react or do anything that matters against Hiru Tora.
> 
> BTW: Deidara solos Kitsuchi + Darui and Ei was at his max speed when Madara cockblocked him. It wouldn't have make any sense for him to complain about his speed not being enough to surprise Madara if he could have still amped his max speed to a whole different level.



That was basically my exact argument as well as Ay evidently powering up in V2, but Jad directly argued argued such. But now he's agreeing with it ? Lol I'm confused


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## Jad (Mar 10, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> That was basically my exact argument as well as Ay evidently powering up in V2, but Jad directly argued argued such. But now he's agreeing with it ? Lol I'm confused



Hello my name is Jad.

I was pointing out that Ei may have not used his top speed against Madara, although he was never really shown Shunshining again after that (probably too chakra taxing as he pumps Bijuu levels amount to perform the move).

He definitely used V2 though, Madara mentions how Ei used the "the body flicker technique".

And well, I have to say, Lee was moving faster then what ever Ei demonstrated against Madara. Don't give me that "He was on the Juubi he couldn't move" baloney. He can move his arms just fine. I mean who stands there attached to a Bijuu like the Juubi, and sees a Giant Flying Ninja Bird, and not have something up there sleeve? If he knew he was boned, he'd of deatched himself quite easily. He was probably just banking on doing a move or pulling a technique off, which he ultimately couldn't do because of Lee.​


Matto-sama said:


> Jiraiya should win.
> 
> If Gai activates gates, Jiraiya will have time to mount a defense before Gai can blitz him. The activation of Gates is not instantaneous and we've seen Shouten Kisame react to Gai's 7th-gated speed as well as the real Kisame cast jutsu.
> 
> ...



I can't help to think that you have Gai chasing after Jiraiya in your scenario, without executing any moves of his own, in an endless game of cat of mouse that ultimately sees Jiraiya winning. Gai is at some point going to figure out (based on your scenario) he can't get Jiraiya by just pure speed, and will most probably launch Hirudora. Which is just ridiculously fast (and manga knowledge means he doesn't know it explodes - he may just think it's a move to doge). And with knowledge, again, I don't see how Jiraiya can preemptively guard against the technique, or during the moves execution guard against the technique.

It's manga canon, that  serious Madara could not stop the tiger hitting him when he went to smash Naruto with a Sasuno blade. You can come up with 100 and 1 reasons, but it's manga canon. But let me guess? Plot induced stupidity? The bain of Gai's existence in this entire manga....The ultimate end all argument when it involves Lee or Gai.

Anyways, even then, the moves you are listing Jiraiya performing, all qualify for Gai going gates, were he will ultimately dodge and then decide, which technique is best for which scenario. On top of that, summoning a boss toad is like an instant switch to go gates. It'd be foolish for Gai to continue the fight knowing a boss toad is in his way when in base.​


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## Stermor (Mar 10, 2014)

jiriaya stands a good chance on winning if he is in sage mode.. in base gai can turn on gates and blitz him way to easily.. 

in sage mode jiriaya has decent shot of surviving/evading gated gai until death.. his toad bottle seems like a good choice, since even pain couldn't break it, and entering it killed a pain body..


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