# Jiraiya in Itachi's shoes



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 8, 2015)

Since jiraiya is Itachi's peer(or superior), I thought it would be very suitable to test him in a cetain scenario.

Location : Uchiha temple
Distance : Same as Itachi vs Sasuke
Mindset : IC(Sasuke is out for blood, Jiraiya has no killing intent)
Knowledge : Sasuke has full except frog song. Jiraiya knows everything Itachi knew about Sasuke and Orochimaru
Restrictions : None for Hebi Sasuke. Jiraiya can't kill Sasuke, and he has to deplete Sasuke's stamina completely to force Orochimaru to come out and seal/kill him.

Conditions : This is basically the same scenario of Itachi vs Sasuke, and Jiraiya has to do everything Itachi did.

Who comes out on top ?


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

J man goes SM beats the shit out of sasuke till sasuke looses chakra

kirin wont happen since J man don't really have techniques that would give sasuke the same cover he had against amaterasu

Also his sensing will help him figure out sasuke is beneath should said tactic be used 

in which case FCD. crushes sasuke, at which point orochimaru comes out of a desperate sasuke to save him

Jman uses frog song then toad gourd prison 

just dealing with yamata isn't an issue for Jman


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

I think it's fairly obvious that Jiraiya is far superior to Sasuke. Kishi did not have Jiraiya fight against Pain, to present him inferior to Hebi Sasuke. 

Regardless, I don't knot how this game will work to make Sasuke exhausted since a lot of Jiraiya's moves seems to be killing moves. 

Also, you should know that characters can be on the same level with different move-set. That does not mean
they can do exactly what the others (even inferior sometimes) can do.


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## Ghost (Jul 8, 2015)

Sasuke kills Jiraiya immediately. 



Icegaze said:


> J man goes SM beats the shit out of sasuke till sasuke looses chakra


Starting distance is like 5 meters and Sasuke has full knowledge and is faster. Jiraiya is not going to be able to summon Ma and Pa.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

Sasuke is not faster than Jiraiya. The Databook placed them on the same level. 
Both have 4.5 in speed.


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## The Undying (Jul 8, 2015)

YAMU NOMI GG


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

lol even if sasuke is faster he isn't so fast jiriaya cant use lion mane to protect himself 

or summon a toad to create distance

hebi sasuke beating jiraiya has always been hilarious to me


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## Ghost (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Sasuke is not faster than Jiraiya. The Databook placed them on the same level.
> Both have 4.5 in speed.



Sasuke has better feats, Sharingan and CS to boost and 5 meter long Chidori spear. Jiraiya has no way to escape from Sasuke. Conditions rape Jiraiya in the ass here.



Icegaze said:


> lol even if sasuke is faster he isn't so fast jiriaya cant use lion mane to protect himself



Hair is not protecting Jiraiya from getting impaled by Chidori Eiso.


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## StickaStick (Jul 8, 2015)

Does it matter? If Jiraiya were tasked with exhausting Sasuke and removing Oro then Kishi would have made it happen. Random scenarios where Jiraiya could pull it off aren't needed, even if he could do so easily enough with what he's already shown.


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## Turrin (Jul 8, 2015)

Jiraiya starts in Sennin Modo w/ the entire area of the Uchiha Temple covered in Iwagama, because he has hours of prep before Sasuke even arrives there to plan the battle like Itachi did. He proceeds to fodder fuck Hebi-Sasuke while in Sennin Modo, quickly forcing Orochimaru out. Than holds him in place with Senpo Yami Numa, while burning him to a crisp with Senpo Gama Yu Endan. Jiraiya takes it low difficult.

The conditions are much more favorable for someone like Jiraiya who has Jutsu that are a-lot more effective when he can plan ahead.


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Sasuke has better feats, Sharingan and CS to boost and 5 meter long Chidori spear. Jiraiya has no way to escape from Sasuke. Conditions rape Jiraiya in the ass here.
> 
> 
> 
> Hair is not protecting Jiraiya from getting impaled by Chidori Eiso.



that implies the first thing sasuke does is chidori eiso 

well I could just assume first thing jiriaya does is FCD

I wonder whats faster FCD or chidori eiso?


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Sasuke has better feats, Sharingan and CS to boost and 5 meter long Chidori spear. Jiraiya has no way to escape from Sasuke. Conditions rape Jiraiya in the ass here..



Better feats such as? 

SM will boost better than CS. 

Jiraiya has wind release according to the Databook as well. Wind > lightning.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 8, 2015)

Other than "portrayal"(which is a flawed argument anyways as Jiraiya isn't that superior to Sasuke) does anyone have a legit argument ?


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Other than "portrayal"(which is a flawed argument anyways as Jiraiya isn't that superior to Sasuke) does anyone have a legit argument ?



Jiraiya does not need portrayal really. He shits all over Sasuke. 

Jiraiya can use his fire jutsu with the oil (which makes it much stronger). His hair that can destroy iron. He has much more chakra than itachi (which means he can fight for much longer time).

He also has the sensing barrier, which means Sasuke is not fooling him with anything like the Fire Dragons he used fro underneath to burn Itachi's arm, and so on.


The only argument anyone could possibly have for Sasuke is Kirin, which he can't do without the Amaterasu help either.

I don't see how is not going to lose here honestly.


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## Matty (Jul 8, 2015)

Jiraiya can wreck Hebi Sasuke. I don't understand how Hebi would really have a chance even if Jiraiya is just trying to exhaust him. One is sannin level who is extremely versatile and the other is a high end low kage. Or am I missing something?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 8, 2015)

Having more chakra is irrelevant here, as Itachi outlasted Sasuke with alot less chakra.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Jiraiya can wreck Hebi Sasuke. I don't understand how Hebi would really have a chance even if Jiraiya is just trying to exhaust him. One is sannin level who is extremely versatile and the other is a high end low kage. Or am I missing something?



Hebi Sasuke is by far thee most overrated version of himself.  


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Having more chakra is irrelevant here, as Itachi outlasted Sasuke with alot less chakra.



Having more chakra is never irrelevant. If anything, that just show that Jiraiya will be doing the job far better than itachi.

With no side effects to his jutsu, far more chakra, much more diversity with attacks than itachi, there is no doubt that Sasuke can't do much here. He is simply outclassed by literally every single thing there is to the shinobi.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 8, 2015)

The only thing Jiraiya cannot defend against is Kirin, if it comes out then he will lose but before that can happen I see frog song defeating Sasuke.

As for if he can replicate what Itachi did? No.

He'll win with his own method, which is a great deal of less finesse than Itachi. 

Jiraiya isn't known for his finesse but he'd get the job done as well.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

Not known for his finesse? 
tell me more about itachi's spying skills compared to Jiraiya's for example. 

Has itachi done a good job with Sasuke as much as Jiraiya did with Naruto? No, I suppose not. 

Because as far as I am concerned, everything Jiraiya does, he does it better than itachi
as far as the manga goes.


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## Ghost (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> that implies the first thing sasuke does is chidori eiso



Sasuke has full knowledge and is blood lusted, why not end Jiraiya immediately? 


> well I could just assume first thing jiriaya does is FCD


Not really IC. Plus Sasuke would cut down Jiraiya before the toad lands. And wouldn't Jiraiya get crushed as well? 


> I wonder whats faster FCD or chidori eiso?


Sasuke doesn't need hand seals for Chidori and the toad still has to fall. Sasuke's attack is faster.


Hussain said:


> Better feats such as?


Blitzing team Kakashi, almost blitzing Deidara for example. All in base. Jiraiya has zero feats.


> SM will boost better than CS.


Jiraiya can't instantly enter SM.


> Jiraiya has wind release according to the Databook as well. Wind > lightning.


He has not shown any fuuton jutsu.



Turrin said:


> Jiraiya starts in Sennin Modo w/ the entire area of the Uchiha Temple covered in Iwagama, because he has hours of prep before Sasuke even arrives there to plan the battle like Itachi did. He proceeds to fodder fuck Hebi-Sasuke while in Sennin Modo, quickly forcing Orochimaru out. Than holds him in place with Senpo Yami Numa, while burning him to a crisp with Senpo Gama Yu Endan. Jiraiya takes it low difficult.
> 
> The conditions are much more favorable for someone like Jiraiya who has Jutsu that are a-lot more effective when he can plan ahead.



A U T I S M


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## Turrin (Jul 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Other than "portrayal"(which is a flawed argument anyways as Jiraiya isn't that superior to Sasuke) does anyone have a legit argument ?




Two tiers better at Taijutsu than Sasuke [4.5 vs 3.5]
Two Tiers better than Sasuke in Intelligence [4.5 vs 3.5]
Two Tiers better than Sasuke in Str [4.5 vs 3.5]
Three Tiers better than Sasuke in Stamina [5 vs 3.5]
Tier Better than Sasuke in Hand-Seals [4.5 vs 4]
Equivalent to Sasuke Statistically in Speed and Ninjutsu [Both have 5s], though more on Ninjutsu later
Literally only Ninja Art Jiraiya isn't >= to Sasuke is Genjutsu, but he can summon two Genjtusu masters that are better than Sasuke
Better at utilizing Katon than Sasuke w/ things like Gama Yu Endan
Can use Fuuton while Sasuke can't
Can use Doton while Sasuke can't
Can use Suiton while Sasuke can't
Can use Yang Release While Sasuke can't
Literally the only element Sasuke can use that Jiraiya can't is Raiton, but odds are a Toad can
Sennin Modo Stated to be much better than Curse-Seal
Jiraiya's Summons and Coordination with them > Sasuke's
Jiraiya > Sasuke in Exp
Jiraiya > Sasuke in terms of arsenal versatility and size
Jiraiya detection and sensory abilities outstrip Sharingan with Sennin Modo Sensing of three Sages, Biological Detection, and Motion Detection
Jiraiya outstrips Sasuke in infiltration and espionage techniques
Rasengan Variants > Chidori Variants 
Jiraiya's Shape Alteration > Sasuke's

Base-Jiraiya is better than Hebi-Sasuke in most regards, in SM he's literally better at everything and by a vast margin in most cases.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Not known for his finesse?
> tell me more about itachi's spying skills compared to Jiraiya's for example.
> 
> Has itachi done a good job with Sasuke as much as Jiraiya did with Naruto? No, I suppose not.
> ...



Jiraiya isn't, he's a great deal like Naruto in that respect, neither of them are finesse shinobi. Kakashi is more finesse than Jiraiya, same with Itachi, Minato and etc. It doesn't mean they are stronger than him by any large margin, just the way they assess a situation is better than Jiraiya.

A prime example would be when Itachi fought against Nagato and recognized the shared-eye visions much quicker than Jiraiya and the other two sennin frogs did. Another example is the strategy Kakashi in conjunction with Naruto and the others used to rip off Obito's mask.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Jiraiya isn't, he's a great deal like Naruto in that respect, neither of them are finesse shinobi. Kakashi is more finesse than Jiraiya, same with Itachi, Minato and etc. It doesn't mean they are stronger than him by any large margin, just the way they assess a situation is better than Jiraiya.
> 
> A prime example would be when Itachi fought against Nagato and recognized the shared-eye visions much quicker than Jiraiya and the other two sennin frogs did. Another example is the strategy Kakashi in conjunction with Naruto and the others used to rip off Obito's mask.



strange as Kakashi admitted his inferiority to Jiraiya as well in Pain Arc. 



> A prime example would be when Itachi fought against Nagato and recognized the shared-eye visions much quicker than Jiraiya and the other two sennin frogs did. Another example is the strategy Kakashi in conjunction with Naruto and the others used to rip off Obito's mask



Baseless assumption is baseless. You do know that Itachi was with Akatsuki for at least 10 years or so. And he already had knowledge of them before even battling Nagato

He was not basing what he did from experiencing for the first time, but from years of spying on them
(without giving Konoha anything of course) 

- Kakashi has the same eye with the same ability, and had seen that ability many times before. Hell, SAKURA did a better job than Kakashi explaining that shit from the FIRST time she has seen him. 
Naruto implied that getting hit by Amatersu is a certain defeat


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> strange as Kakashi admitted his inferiority to Jiraiya as well in Pain Arc.


Inferiority in terms of strength and power (which is reasonable because Kakashi was making the reference to Jiraiya fighting all six of them), not intelligence and strategy. Again, Jiraiya's more like Naruto, not finesse but gets the job done anyway.



Hussain said:


> Baseless assumption is baseless. You do know that Itachi was with Akatsuki for at least 10 years or so. And he already had knowledge of them before even battling Nagato
> 
> He was not basing what he did from experiencing for the first time, but from years of spying on them
> (without giving Konoha anything of course)
> ...



It doesn't necessarily mean that Itachi knew all the specifics about the Rin'negan or how Nagato uses his jutsu. He spoke of the Akatsuki in general, as in their goals, not their powers. In essence, he did a better job of infiltrating the organization than Jiraiya did.

As for Kakashi, Obito's right eye is different from his left eye, the databook confirmed this. If it was the same technique he would have figured it out.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

1- Jiraiya was able to take them down was based on his strategy for the most part rather than strength alone tho. 

2- 





> It doesn't necessarily mean that Itachi knew all the specifics about the Rin'negan or how Nagato uses his jutsu. He spoke of the Akatsuki in general, as in their goals, not their powers.


I beg to differ. 
Working with those guys must mean he knows of their abilities. The whole paring IS based on their abilities. For example, Hidan being with Kakuzu because they are the immortal due, and Kakuzu's attacks not being able to kill Hidan.

Sasori and Deidara because they are artiest and so on. As such, Kisame was able to know about itachi's MS abilities and their side effects, and his back ground when they first put together. 

Or how Obito knew about Deidara's C4 and how it works.  
Or how Konan knew about Kamui and that it last for 5 minutes at most. 
Or how Sasori knew about Oro's ET, and Oro knew about Sasori's seal on Kabuto.

There is no logical way that he stayed with them for 10 years, and the only things he knows is the basics as " as in their goals" when that's the first thing to be told to them as when Pain explained that to Hidan. 

and he won't say "I know more than you" when he only knows the thing that everyone and their mothers know. 

you could say "well, that does not mean they know EVERYTHING about each other's abilities" but it's obvious they
do know some stuff. The Vision sharing is basic, and not a top secret thing or the most powerful thing Nagato has, like say "CT" or something. 

The conclusion, thinking that itachi figured that out in that battle is baseless, and as such does not prove anything.  



> In essence, he did a better job of infiltrating the organization than Jiraiya did.



he is part of the organisation. He did survive them (and gave absolutly nothing to konoha). Of course Jiraiya wouldn't do a thing like that.



> As for Kakashi, Obito's right eye is different from his left eye, the databook confirmed this. If it was the same technique he would have figured it out.


at least he has something, on the other hand Sakura had nothing. Hell, they can ever share their vision for crying out loud.


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## The Undying (Jul 8, 2015)

Oh snap, did somebody actually make a legitimate "Yomi Numa" argument? 

In all seriousness, I don't see Sasuke winning this even with the circumstances in his favor. He isn't immediately landing a hit on Jiraiya when they're in the same speed tier, and once Jiraiya enters SM it's pretty much a wrap.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 1- Jiraiya was able to take them down was based on his strategy for the most part rather than strength alone tho.
> 
> 2-
> I beg to differ.
> ...


Not at all, Itachi figured cause both Bee and Naruto were engaging Nagato.



Hussain said:


> he is part of the organisation. He did survive them (and gave absolutly nothing to konoha). Of course Jiraiya wouldn't do a thing like that.


The point you are ignoring now is the one you yourself made earlier, if you want compare reconnaissance, then Jiraiya doesn't have a thing over Itachi in that department. Since you yourself have already proved that Itachi knew more about Akatsuki than Jiraiya.

Back to my point about finesse which is just skill and intelligence, Jiraiya seems to slower in the latter when it comes to developing strategies, critically thinking and analyzing. He needed assistance from Ma/Pa in order to execute his plan. It's not his forte, which is understandable. 

Like I said, he'll eventually reach the same conclusion but it'll take him longer that's just the way he was depicted.



Hussain said:


> at least he has something, on the other hand Sakura had nothing. Hell, they can ever share their vision for crying out loud.


Both Fuu and Torune made a similar assessment, it's nothing out of the ordinary.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Having more chakra is never irrelevant.* If anything, that just show that Jiraiya will be doing the job far better than itachi*..


Bold makes no sense.

Like I said, Itachi outlasted Sasuke while having lower stamina than Sasuke. 
Its all about arsenal.



Turrin said:


> Two tiers better at Taijutsu than Sasuke [4.5 vs 3.5]
> Two Tiers better than Sasuke in Intelligence [4.5 vs 3.5]
> Two Tiers better than Sasuke in Str [4.5 vs 3.5]
> Three Tiers better than Sasuke in Stamina [5 vs 3.5]
> ...



Dude Databook stats have nothing to do with portrayal.

Also both of them are power up users, their base stats won't become too much of an issue as they can compansate with their respective boosts.

And direct databook stat comparison is most of the time meaningless because it comes down to the clash of arsenal.

Just pit Asuma against Gaara or Deidara or Kakuzu and you'll see.

And lol'd @ your last remark. Base Jiraiya would get steamrolled by Hebi Sasuke so god damn hard.

edit : 
Shit, did you just say Jiraiya's shape alteration > Sasuke's ?


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## Turrin (Jul 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Dude Databook stats have nothing to do with portrayal.


You said other than portrayal lol. If I included portrayal the list would be even fucking longer lolz



> Also both of them are power up users, their base stats won't become too much of an issue as they can compansate with their respective boosts.


and Jiraiya has the vastly superior power up.



> And direct databook stat comparison is most of the time meaningless because it comes down to the clash of arsenal.


No it really isn't. 



> Just pit Asuma against Gaara or Deidara or Kakuzu and you'll see.


You comparing stats totals, which is BS. I'm comparing individual stats. Jiraiya is literally >= Sasuke In EVERYTHING sans Genjutsu.



> And lol'd @ your last remark. Base Jiraiya would get steamrolled by Hebi Sasuke so god damn hard.


All I can say is have fun with your fanfiction bro, cause Jiraiya >>> Hebi-Sasuke is probably one of thee most cut and dry strength comparisons in the entire manga considering how Jiraiya is better than him at literally everything humanly possible.



> Shit, did you just say Jiraiya's shape alteration > Sasuke's ?


Shit, did you just imply Jiraiya's shape alteration isn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sasuke, when Jiraiya can bust out Chou Oddoma Rasengan. Homie please.


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## Bookworm (Jul 8, 2015)

I actually think Base Jiraiya would probably get blitz by Sasuke. Deidara had a 4.5 in speed and he got blitz


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 8, 2015)

Turrin said:


> and Jiraiya has the vastly superior power up.


It really isn't.
CS has its own benefits and portrayed more or less on a similar level in the war arc.



> No it really isn't.


It really is.



> You comparing stats totals, which is BS. I'm comparing individual stats. Jiraiya is literally >= Sasuke In EVERYTHING sans Genjutsu.


Sasuke >> Jiraiya in Ninjutsu though. Also you don't have to be individually better than each an every stat to be able to beat your opponent.
Asuma example works in that sense too.
Asuma has higher individual stats than Gaara, Hidan or Kakuzu in certain areas. Doesn't change the fact that they'd completely shit on him(Kakuzu and Hidan already did).



> All I can say is have fun with your fanfiction bro, cause Jiraiya >>> Hebi-Sasuke is probably one of thee most cut and dry strength comparisons in the entire manga considering how Jiraiya is better than him at literally everything humanly possible.



Wait, are you really comparing Sasuke to Base Jiraiya here ? 

With CS, Sasuke >> Jiraiya in speed, durability, chakra potency and most likely strength too.
Like Jiraiya'd get overwhelmed so quickly, he literally stands absolutely no chance without SM.



> Shit, did you just imply Jiraiya's shape alteration isn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sasuke, when Jiraiya can bust out Chou Oddoma Rasengan. Homie please.


2015
rasengan


Rasengan = shit.

On the other hand, Kirin shits on any shape manipulation Jiraiya has ever shown.
Hell, Kirin shits on anything Jiraiya has shown including all of his arsenal in SM.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

> Rasengan = shit.



Surely not as shit as Amatersu. 
Naruto implied that getting hit by Amatersu is a certain defeat



> CS has its own benefits and portrayed more or less on a similar level in the war arc.


Not sure what manga have you been reading. 
Go to those CS users, and then come with a straight face and tell us how they are compared to SM Hashirama, SM Naruto, and SM Kabuto for example. 



> Like Jiraiya'd get overwhelmed so quickly, he literally stands absolutely no chance without SM.


The wank is real. 
Jiraiya can fodderstomps Sasuke and take a dumb in his mouth in base. 

Hell, the jutsu he used to make itachi run for his life can pretty much 1-shot Sasuke since he does not have Amatersu
to save him like itachi did. lol



> Sasuke >> Jiraiya in Ninjutsu though



Lol, not even close. 
Jiraiya has 4 elements, and Yin and Yang, and many other jutsu. His fire jutsu shits all over Sasuke's fire jutsu.


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## Rocky (Jul 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It really isn't.
> CS has its own benefits and portrayed more or less on a similar level in the war arc.



The Stage 2 Curse Seal is about even with one tail of Kurama's chakra. That isn't even comparable to Sage Mode. Pain & The Third Raikage would have no diffed KN1, for instance.

The Curse Seal (like KN1) was not an impressive powerup in Part II. Just look at how it made absolutely no difference in the dying Itachi fight.


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## Hachibi (Jul 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Stage 2 Curse Seal is about even with one tail of Kurama's chakra. That isn't even comparable to Sage Mode. Pain & The Third Raikage would have no diffed KN1, for instance.
> 
> The Curse Seal (like KN1) was not an impressive powerup in Part II. Just look at how it made absolutely no difference in the dying Itachi fight.



Actually, it did. CS give its user chakra if I remember correctly (ie. going CS2 to throw Dragon Katon.)


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## Bookworm (Jul 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Stage 2 Curse Seal is about even with one tail of Kurama's chakra. That isn't even comparable to Sage Mode. Pain & The Third Raikage would have no diffed KN1, for instance.
> 
> The Curse Seal (like KN1) was not an impressive powerup in Part II. Just look at how it made absolutely no difference in the dying Itachi fight.



When CS2 was first used and unmastered it was even with the one tail in power. It had high durability as well.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Actually, it did. CS give its user chakra if I remember correctly (ie. going CS2 to throw Dragon Katon.)



The funny part when I say Tayuya > itachi. They jumb on saying how that does not work because
Kabuto has SM, and made the Genjutsu "sooo much better" that it effected itachi.

Now he is not in the equation, they are all the same.


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## Hachibi (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The funny part when I say Tayuya > itachi. They jumb on saying how that does not work because
> Kabuto has SM, and made the Genjutsu "sooo much better" that it effected itachi.
> 
> Now he is not in the equation, they are all the same.



>Comparing a Mastered SM with a Unmastered one.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

Glad you agree. So, SM > CS.


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## Hachibi (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Glad you agree. So, SM > CS.



That isn't what I'm talking about.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

I know, you were trying a pitiful try to say
Kabuto's SM > Jiraiya's SM

which will lead us to

Juugo's fake SM > Sasuke's fake SM

still remains
Jiraiya > Juugo > Sasuke. 

they are not equal one way or the other.


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## Hachibi (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I know, you were trying a pitiful try to say
> Kabuto's SM > Jiraiya's SM
> 
> which will lead us to
> ...



...What?

Juugo is better than Jiraiya at Senjutsu because his body absorb it passively and he has perfect control over it when near someone who can calm him.

Hell, Jiraiya cannot go in SM without Ma and Pa.


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## Legendary Itachi (Jul 8, 2015)

How do you come to this conclusion?


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> ...What?
> 
> Juugo is better than Jiraiya at Senjutsu because his body absorb it passively and he has perfect control over it when near someone who can calm him.
> 
> Hell, Jiraiya cannot go in SM without Ma and Pa.



Nonsense. 
it has been made clear that SM is the superior one. Jugo is even worst than the rest of his clan IIRC. lol



> Hell, Jiraiya cannot go in SM without Ma and Pa



Nonsense. 
We have seen him using it without them. They are there just to make SM unlimited.


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## Hachibi (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Nonsense.
> it has been made clear that SM is the superior one. Jugo is even worst than the rest of his clan IIRC. lol



Do you even listen to me. CS is derived form Jugo. He use pure Senjutsu. And I want proof for the last statement.



> Nonsense.
> We have seen him using it without them. They are there just to make SM unlimited.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

Again, Jugo's transformation is NOT superior to SM. 
The source of their power is from the snakes cave, and the only one who mastered it to its full potential is Kabuto. 

Otherwise, his SM would have been like Jugo's. 

As for the second part, I did a quick research for the chapters on top of my head, and i did not find anything to be honest. 

- your pic does not proof anything, when we have already seen him using SM without them. 
Perhaps his situation is more like Minato where he can enter it, but not really keep it long enough to fight
without their help. 

anyway, I have to go to sleep.
I don't know If I'll reply to you tomorrow or not as I usually lose interest if I don't reply right away. lol


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Again, Jugo's transformation is NOT superior to SM.
> *The source of their power is from the snakes cave*, and the only one who mastered it to its full potential is Kabuto.



Proof of the bolded?

As for the second part, I did a quick research for the chapters on top of my head, and i did not find anything to be honest. 



> - your pic does not proof anything, when we have already seen him using SM without them.



With or without oil? 



> anyway, I have to go to sleep.
> I don't know If I'll reply to you tomorrow or not as I usually lose interest if I don't reply right away. lol



ok


----------



## Hexa (Jul 8, 2015)

I don't think Sage Mode Jiraiya could do much against the Yamata no Orochi if it came to that.  It's Orochimaru's ultimate (sage mode) jutsu, and nigh unkillable.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Proof of the bolded?
> 
> As for the second part, I did a quick research for the chapters on top of my head, and i did not find anything to be honest.



Read the chapter where Kabuto explains about the abilities he stole



Hexa said:


> I don't think Sage Mode Jiraiya could do much against the Yamata no Orochi if it came to that.  It's Orochimaru's ultimate (sage mode) jutsu, and nigh unkillable.



Oro does not have SM. He was never able to achieve it. Also, the dropping frog jutsu (whatever it called) should be able to put it down. It killed 3 snakes in part 1, and it was able to put Kurama himself down.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 8, 2015)

Oh well, Hussain is right about that


----------



## Hexa (Jul 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Oro does not have SM. He was never able to achieve it. Also, the dropping frog jutsu (whatever it called) should be able to put it down. It killed 3 snakes in part 1, and it was able to put Kurama himself down.


Hm?  Kabuto says (Geg Ver1, aegon rokudo Ver 2)
_Kabuto[Ver 1]: Not even he could become a perfect Sage like me!
Kabuto[Ver 2]: even he wasn’t able to get accustomed to the perfect sennin method like I did!_​Orochimaru wasn't capable of achieving _perfect_ sage mode.  The implicature is, of course, that he was able to use sage mode to some degree.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

that "sage mode" is the curse seal. Just like with all the other Jugo's "clones". Point still stands tho. There is nothing indicates that  Oro's snake is somehow stronger than Kurama which was put down by the frogs.


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## Hexa (Jul 8, 2015)

We don't really get a lot of details on Orochimaru's sage mode, but really it's his white-snake true form.   The cursed seal was part of Orochimaru's research into perfecting his sage mode, but he doesn't have a cursed seal on himself.

I don't think Sage Jiraiya is getting past that Yamata phase.  Kirin will do him in too if Sasuke gets it off.  Sage mode Jiraiya is definitely much stronger than Hebi Sasuke here, but  the situation is really poor for him.   Fighting without killing intent is _hard_, as we heard drilled into us over and over in the Kabuto fight.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It really isn't.
> CS has its own benefits and portrayed more or less on a similar level in the war arc.



Sasuke, "Did you receive Orochimaru's curse seal?"

Kabuto, "That's incorrect...such as thing was merely a cheap imitation"



> It really is.


We'll have to agree to disagree on the idea of someone literally being >= to Sasuke in every ninja art besides Genjutsu being irrelevant.



> Sasuke >> Jiraiya in Ninjutsu though


Under what criteria?



> . Also you don't have to be individually better than each an every stat to be able to beat your opponent.
> Asuma example works in that sense too.


Cool, but your opponent being >= to you in every stat [sans gen] is much different story.



> Sasuke >> Jiraiya in Ninjutsu though. Also you don't have to be individually better than each an every stat to be able to beat your opponent.
> Asuma example works in that sense too.
> Asuma has higher individual stats than Gaara, Hidan or Kakuzu in certain areas. Doesn't change the fact that they'd completely shit on him(Kakuzu and Hidan already did)..


It also doesn't change the fact that Asuma is better than them in those areas. Asuma looses not because they have other areas where they greatly excel Asuma to make up the difference. While Jiraiya is better than Sasuke in everything and I was merely using the stats to show that was the case as far as certain stats go.



> Wait, are you really comparing Sasuke to Base Jiraiya here ?


Yes and they are indeed comparable if not Jiraiya still holding the advantage, and if you don't like it you can cry me a river.



> speed, durability, chakra potency and most likely strength too


And Base-Jiraiya is better in Chakra Quantity, Hand-Seals, Summons, Amount of Elements, Shape Alteration, Versatility of Ninjtusu, Taijutsu, Exp, Knowledge, and Intelligence 

So Sasuke being better in a few areas and having CS/Sharingan are literally the only things even making this even remotely a fair fight and even than he's still quite frankly outmatched outside of Kirin. 



> Like Jiraiya'd get overwhelmed so quickly, he literally stands absolutely no chance without SM.


Overwhelmed by what exactly?



> On the other hand, Kirin shits on any shape manipulation Jiraiya has ever shown.
> Hell, Kirin shits on anything Jiraiya has shown including all of his arsenal in SM


Yeah because Kirin was totally focused on as requiring a huge skill in shape manipulation like Rasengan was...oh wait, that's total fanfiction.

Kirin has the same style of shape manipulation applied to it as Water-Dragon, which is inferior to Basic Rasengan, which is in turn inferior to Oddoma Rasengan, which is in turn inferior Chou Oddoma Rasengan.



Hexa said:


> Hm?  Kabuto says (Geg Ver1, aegon rokudo Ver 2)
> _Kabuto[Ver 1]: Not even he could become a perfect Sage like me!
> Kabuto[Ver 2]: even he wasn’t able to get accustomed to the perfect sennin method like I did!_​Orochimaru wasn't capable of achieving _perfect_ sage mode.  The implicature is, of course, that he was able to use sage mode to some degree.


And literally the page right before that says Orochimaru's body couldn't handle that power at all. Meaning Orochimaru could not use any kind of Sennin Modo. And quite frankly it's obvious that this is fanfiction given that Orochimaru never once even remotely shows anything like a Sennin Modo.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 9, 2015)

Hexa said:


> We don't really get a lot of details on Orochimaru's sage mode, but really it's his white-snake true form.   The cursed seal was part of Orochimaru's research into perfecting his sage mode, but he doesn't have a cursed seal on himself.
> 
> I don't think Sage Jiraiya is getting past that Yamata phase.  Kirin will do him in too if Sasuke gets it off.  Sage mode Jiraiya is definitely much stronger than Hebi Sasuke here, but  the situation is really poor for him.   Fighting without killing intent is _hard_, as we heard drilled into us over and over in the Kabuto fight.



I was under the impression that Orochimaru's SM was solely an experimental enhancement, not necessarily a true senjutsu. Isn't that why Orochimaru wanted Kimimaro's body in order to train with the white sage snake?


----------



## Turrin (Jul 9, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I was under the impression that Orochimaru's SM was solely an experimental enhancement, not necessarily a true senjutsu. Isn't that why Orochimaru wanted Kimimaro's body in order to train with the white sage snake?


Orochimaru couldn't use SM at all, because his body couldn't handle it. It's right there in black and white, anything else is fanficiton.


----------



## Hexa (Jul 9, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I was under the impression that Orochimaru's SM was solely an experimental enhancement, not necessarily a true senjutsu. Isn't that why Orochimaru wanted Kimimaro's body in order to train with the white sage snake?


Kabuto just says Orochimaru wasn't able to attain _perfected_ sage mode.   Kimimaro's body, presumably, would have allowed perfect sage mode. 

Really, the motivation for Orochimaru motivation for injecting his new-body prospects with the cursed seal was probably mainly to check whether the body can sustain perfect sage mode.  He's willing to accept the 90% casualty rate for that.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 9, 2015)

Hexa said:


> Kabuto just says Orochimaru wasn't able to attain _perfected_ sage mode.   Kimimaro's body, presumably, would have allowed perfect sage mode.
> 
> Really, the motivation for Orochimaru motivation for injecting his new-body prospects with the cursed seal was probably mainly to check whether the body can sustain perfect sage mode.  He's willing to accept the 90% casualty rate for that.


No he doesn't. He says that Orochimaru's body couldn't handle Sennnin Modo at all.


----------



## Ghost (Jul 9, 2015)

Gotta love them Uchiha haters. Still as biased as always.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 9, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke, "Did you receive Orochimaru's curse seal?"
> 
> Kabuto, "That's incorrect...such as thing was merely a cheap imitation"



When Naruto and Sasuke stood side by side in their avatars, Juugo's cursed seal on Sasuke was portrayed on a similar level with Naruto's SM. At least to the extend that it got the job done.

And Kabuto was a perfect sage, where as Jiraiya wasn't. 



> We'll have to agree to disagree on the idea of someone literally being >= to Sasuke in every ninja art besides Genjutsu being irrelevant.



Like I said, it comes down to arsenal. And they are both power up users, for example their speed stat being equal doesn't mean much here, as CS would make Sasuke fuckloads faster than Jiraiya and has sharingan on top of that. 
If you think statistically Jiraiya being on the same tier with Sasuke in speed means something, then you don't know shit.



> Under what criteria?


Under whatever criteria that decides it.
Sasuke's raiton variants and Kirin should easily put Sasuke above Jiraiya.



> Cool, but your opponent being >= to you in every stat [sans gen] is much different story.


Cool but both Sasuke and Jiraiya are ninjutsu based fighters and power up users. Their base stats won't determine any fight. Unless it is a specific scenario.

Their ninjutsu arsenal is more important than, say, their physical strength considering neither of them normally fight hand to hand, and if they do, Sasuke murderstomps with CS and things like chidori nagashi anyways. 



> It also doesn't change the fact that Asuma is better than them in those areas. Asuma looses not because they have other areas where they greatly excel Asuma to make up the difference. While Jiraiya is better than Sasuke in everything and I was merely using the stats to show that was the case as far as certain stats go


.

Well except for Ninjutsu, genjutsu and speed.  And when you consider that they are both ninjutsu heavy fighters.. well yeah. 

You are making shit up at this point.



> Yes and they are indeed comparable if not Jiraiya still holding the advantage, and if you don't like it you can cry me a river.


Hebi Sasuke can easily overhwelm Jiraiya with his speed alone, none of Jiraiya's defensive measures can answer to his raiton variants and Jiraiya's base ninjutsu arsenal can't bypass Oral rebirth or casual CS durability. He is pretty much helpless.



> And Base-Jiraiya is better in Chakra Quantity, Hand-Seals, Summons, Amount of Elements, Shape Alteration, Versatility of Ninjtusu, Taijutsu, Exp, Knowledge, and Intelligence


Even if we assume that Jiraiya is better @ shape alteration, how does that effect anything ? 
It is like saying Sasuke is more handsome than Jiraiya, just  to point out a superiority.

Amount of elements is irrelevant, as Sasuke can counter doton with raiton and katons with his own katons. Jiraiya hasn't shown any other element.
Manda > toads
Sasuke > Jiraiya in ninjutsu

I'll give you knowledge and taijutsu and experience. Intelligence, not. 



> So Sasuke being better in a few areas and having CS/Sharingan are literally the only things even making this even remotely a fair fight and even than he's still quite frankly outmatched outside of Kirin.


That is a big underestimation. 
Base Jiraiya is not even on Hebi Sasuke's level, you can't compare them.



> Overwhelmed by what exactly?


Speed, CS, raiton variants, genjutsu.



> Yeah because Kirin was totally focused on as requiring a huge skill in shape manipulation like Rasengan was...oh wait, that's total fanfiction.


Even if it isn't, Kirin is a much higher level jutsu than rasengan anyways, so does it even matter ?
Nothing in Jiraiya's arsenal is in the same ballpark with Kirin. 



> Kirin has the same style of shape manipulation applied to it as Water-Dragon, which is inferior to Basic Rasengan, which is in turn inferior to Oddoma Rasengan, which is in turn inferior Chou Oddoma Rasengan.


The shape alteration applied to odaama rasengan and chou odaama rasengan is the same with regular rasengan. Spinning ball of chakra.



Rocky said:


> The Stage 2 Curse Seal is about even with one tail of Kurama's chakra. That isn't even comparable to Sage Mode. Pain & The Third Raikage would have no diffed KN1, for instance.
> 
> The Curse Seal (like KN1) was not an impressive powerup in Part II. Just look at how it made absolutely no difference in the dying Itachi fight.



1 tail of Kurama's chakra > SM 
They beat the shit out of each other and show to have equal durability
They beat the shit out of each other and show to have equal durability

Come at me bro.
:ignoramus


----------



## Rocky (Jul 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 1 tail of Kurama's chakra > SM
> slammed into the ground to create a crater himself
> slammed into the ground to create a crater himself



Orochimaru stood up and was like "cool story bro."

Even when Naruto used three tails, Orochimaru said he still wasn't better than (Start of PII) Sasuke.

SM Naruto fucked with Pain. His clone fucked with the 3rd Raikage.

It isn't even close.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When Naruto and Sasuke stood side by side in their avatars, Juugo's cursed seal on Sasuke was portrayed on a similar level with Naruto's SM. At least to the extend that it got the job done.


Your interpretation of a scene does not supercede a direct statement 



> Like I said, it comes down to arsenal. And they are both power up users, for example their speed stat being equal doesn't mean much here, as CS would make Sasuke fuckloads faster than Jiraiya and has sharingan on top of that.


And Jiraiya's power up is >>>>>>>>>>> Sasuke's



> Sasuke's raiton variants and Kirin should easily put Sasuke above Jiraiya.


Jiraiya has mastered more A-Rank Techniques and they are over a more diverse set disciplines than just Raiton, granting Jiraiya greater versatility. And that's just base Jiraiya. From a purely skill perspective the only argument that can be made for Sasuke is Kirin. 



> Cool but both Sasuke and Jiraiya are ninjutsu based fighters and power up users. Their base stats won't determine any fight. Unless it is a specific scenario.
> 
> Their ninjutsu arsenal is more important than, say, their physical strength considering neither of them normally fight hand to hand, and if they do, Sasuke murderstomps with CS and things like chidori nagashi anyways.


When there is such a huge gap in their base stats and capabilities, Sasuke needs the power ups just to be able to compete with Base-Jiraiya. But than Jiraiya has his own power up which is much better than Sasuke's, leaving Sasuke even more vastly outclassed.



> Well except for Ninjutsu, genjutsu and speed. And when you consider that they are both ninjutsu heavy fighters.. well yeah.


You can only make an argument for Sasuke being better in Ninjutsu if it's Base-Jiraiya, and even than only if you value 1 Ougi S-Rank technique over the fact that Jiraiya has a vastly more versatile and potent arsenal otherwise, as well as more powerful summons; which I personally don't. If we include Jiraiya's abilities with Senjutsu, than Sasuke is vastly outclassed in Ninjutsu. 

Sasuke's Speed is about equal to Base-Jiraiya, and with power ups SM-Jiraiya > CS-Sasuke.

Genjutsu is the sole area where Sasuke is better than Base-Jiraiya, but unfortunately for Sasuke Jiraiya can summon two Genjutsu masters that are much better than Sasuke. 

So against an unrestricted Jiraiya, objectively can out perform him in every single ninja art.



> Hebi Sasuke can easily overhwelm Jiraiya with his speed alone,


If P1-Gaara w/ his 3 in spd and 2 in taijutsu can react to Kimi with his 4.5 in Speed, 5 in Taijutsu, and CS2, an exhausted Shikkamaru w/ his 2.5 in speed and 2 in Taijutsu can react to Hidan w/ his 3.5 in Speed and 5 in Taijutsu, so precisely as to put blood on his weapon at the last second w/o him noticing, I don't see Base-Jiraiya with the same speed stat, better Taijutsu, and perception enhancement like Motion Barrier, having any issue whatsoever with Sasuke's speed, even if CS upgrades him a bit.



> Jiraiya's base ninjutsu arsenal can't bypass Oral rebirth or casual CS durability.


Gama Yu Endan
Toad Gourd Barrier Seal
Toad Flatness Shadow Manipulation [whatever it's called]
FCD




> Even if we assume that Jiraiya is better @ shape alteration, how does that effect anything ?
> It is like saying Sasuke is more handsome than Jiraiya, just to point out a superiority.


It's why his Rasengans can match Sasuke's Chidori Variants, but sure if you want to pretend it effects nothing that's up to you.



> Amount of elements is irrelevant, as Sasuke can counter doton with raiton and katons with his own katons. Jiraiya hasn't shown any other element.
> Manda > toads
> Sasuke > Jiraiya in ninjutsu


Yeah no. Jiraiya's Katons would win out due to the principal of counter balancing and Jiraiya being able to fuel them with more chakra [not to mention Yu Endan rapes any Katons Sasuke is capable off], he can also counter Katons of Sasuke's level with pretty much any Suitons or Bunta's Suiton Gun Shots. His Fuuton will at least be useful in counter Sasuke's lower grade Raitons, like Raiton flow. 

Gamaken, Gamahiro, Gamabunta, Fusaku, and Shima rape the living shit out of Manda.



> That is a big underestimation.
> Base Jiraiya is not even on Hebi Sasuke's level, you can't compare them


Yet he's better than Hebi Sasuke in most things 



> Speed, CS, raiton variants, genjutsu.


Speed he won't be. He has Rasengan Variants + Fuutons to deal with Raiton Variants. Partner Method to deal with Standard Sharingan Genjutsu. 



> Even if it isn't, Kirin is a much higher level jutsu than rasengan anyways, so does it even matter ?
> Nothing in Jiraiya's arsenal is in the same ballpark with Kirin.


Just showing that Jiraiya is better at every Ninja art than Sasuke, and that the argument on the Sasuke side will always boil down to Kirin and whether Sasuke can get Kirin off before Jiraiya prison rapes him.



> The shape alteration applied to odaama rasengan and chou odaama rasengan is the same with regular rasengan. Spinning ball of chakra.


Yeah it's just a-lot more chakra and therefore takes more skill to do so.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 9, 2015)

Deidara also has a 4.5 and did have difficulty with Sasuke's flicker. I don't think the taijutsu stat makes much of a difference in dealing with burst speed, but even if it did Ssauke has the Curse Seal to augment his ninjutsu (body flicker), so (base) Jiraiya too would have difficulty dealing with Sasuke's flicker.

Sasuke's not Raikage or Naruto though, so he shouldn't be so fast that Jiraiya would be absolutely blitzed, and Jiraiya's got the ninjutsu talent & scale to nullify speed somewhat.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 9, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Orochimaru stood up and was like "cool story bro."
> 
> Even when Naruto used three tails, Orochimaru said he still wasn't better than (Start of PII) Sasuke.
> 
> ...



Ok then you probably won't have trouble finding me a better striking feat from a Sage mode user.



Turrin said:


> Your interpretation of a scene does not supercede a direct statement


How do you think that scene was to be interpreted ?



> And Jiraiya's power up is >>>>>>>>>>> Sasuke's


No.



> Jiraiya has mastered more A-Rank Techniques and they are over a more diverse set disciplines than just Raiton, granting Jiraiya greater versatility. And that's just base Jiraiya. From a purely skill perspective the only argument that can be made for Sasuke is Kirin.


Again, versatility =/= skill or power.




> When there is such a huge gap in their base stats and capabilities, Sasuke needs the power ups just to be able to compete with Base-Jiraiya. But than Jiraiya has his own power up which is much better than Sasuke's, leaving Sasuke even more vastly outclassed.


There isn't a "huge" gap in their base stats.
Capabilities ? I don't see any gap there at all.
And when you consider that their bread and butter is ninjutsu, and Sasuke's ninjutsu is at least as good as Jiraiya's(I understand that you don't want to accept that Sasuke is outright better), then I want you to expand on where that huge gap comes from.




> You can only make an argument for Sasuke being better in Ninjutsu if it's Base-Jiraiya, and even than only if you value 1 Ougi S-Rank technique over the fact that Jiraiya has a vastly more versatile and potent arsenal otherwise, as well as more powerful summons; which I personally don't. If we include Jiraiya's abilities with Senjutsu, than Sasuke is vastly outclassed in Ninjutsu.



1 technique is all Sasuke needs to be above Jiraiya. 
SM Jiraya's ninjutsu arsenal isn't that impressive either. Chou Odama rasengan is pretty generic, and doesn't compare to Kirin. And that is his strongest offensive technique.



> Sasuke's Speed is about equal to Base-Jiraiya, and with power ups SM-Jiraiya > CS-Sasuke.


There is no evidence for that.
Actually I would easily place CS Sasuke above SM Jiraiya in terms of speed because he has better speed feats.



> Genjutsu is the sole area where Sasuke is better than Base-Jiraiya, but unfortunately for Sasuke Jiraiya can summon two Genjutsu masters that are much better than Sasuke.


Well this is s start. So you admit that Jiraiya needs SM here 



> So against an unrestricted Jiraiya, objectively can out perform him in every single ninja art.


Except for Ninjutsu. 



> If P1-Gaara w/ his 3 in spd and 2 in taijutsu can react to Kimi with his 4.5 in Speed, 5 in Taijutsu, and CS2, an exhausted Shikkamaru w/ his 2.5 in speed and 2 in Taijutsu can react to Hidan w/ his 3.5 in Speed and 5 in Taijutsu, so precisely as to put blood on his weapon at the last second w/o him noticing, I don't see Base-Jiraiya with the same speed stat, better Taijutsu, and perception enhancement like Motion Barrier, having any issue whatsoever with Sasuke's speed, even if CS upgrades him a bit.


* Cough Deidara vs Sasuke caugh *
Come on, base Sasuke has better speed feats than Jiraiya, with CS he should be able overwhelm him.
By overwhelm I don't mean blitz or anything obviously.




> Gama Yu Endan
> Toad Gourd Barrier Seal
> Toad Flatness Shadow Manipulation [whatever it's called]
> FCD


No how do they do anything against Sasuke _

Sasuke survives Gamayu endan with Manda if you think he somehow can't with oral rebirth.
Toad gourd barrier seal does what exactly ? 



> It's why his Rasengans can match Sasuke's Chidori Variants, but sure if you want to pretend it effects nothing that's up to you.


Shape alteration itself doesn't mean anything. It only comes into play thorugh his arsenal and yes Jiraiya's rasengan can stalemate a base Chidori, but we knew that already.




> Yeah no. Jiraiya's Katons would win out due to the principal of counter balancing and Jiraiya being able to fuel them with more chakra [not to mention Yu Endan rapes any Katons Sasuke is capable off], he can also counter Katons of Sasuke's level with pretty much any Suitons or Bunta's Suiton Gun Shots. His Fuuton will at least be useful in counter Sasuke's lower grade Raitons, like Raiton flow.


Sasuke's CS Katons would rape Jiraiya's base Katons. 
What suiton or fuuton Jiraiya has ? I honestly don't remember.


> Gamaken, Gamahiro, Gamabunta, Fusaku, and Shima rape the living shit out of Manda.


Jiraiya's strongest summon is Gamabunta and we know that Manda rapes him.
It is OOC for Jiraiya to summon the whole toad mountain against Sasuke(he didn'T even do that against Pain), unless you think Jiraiya'd be too hard pressed against Sasuke.



> Yet he's better than Hebi Sasuke in most things


He isn'T better than Hebi Sasuke in ninjutsu, and that is the most important ninja art for both of them.
Hebi Sasuke also has CS which pretty much puts him ahead of Jiraiya in every relevant aspect.



> Speed he won't be. He has Rasengan Variants + Fuutons to deal with Raiton Variants. Partner Method to deal with Standard Sharingan Genjutsu.


Sasuke is faster than jiraiya, it surely will be.
Rasengan can counter Chidori, but that doesn't mean he can use it to counter every raiton variant.
I'd need you to show me Jiraiya's fuutons potent enough to counter Sasuke's raitons.
He'd at least need Ma  or Pa to use partner method.



> Just showing that Jiraiya is better at every Ninja art than Sasuke, and that the argument on the Sasuke side will always boil down to Kirin and whether Sasuke can get Kirin off before Jiraiya prison rapes him.


How does that show anything when it is irrelevant ? 
Why wouldn't Sasuke get Kirin off ?
If jiraiya can use SM against him, then surely Sasuke can use Kirin as pulling off SM seemed harder than pulling off Kirin.



> Yeah it's just a-lot more chakra and therefore takes more skill to do so.


I doubt it is anything significant though, otherwise it would be emphasized or pointed out.
None gave a shit when Naruto used a bigger rasengan, they only did when he created FRS.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 9, 2015)

There's always that Jiraiya panel when he blows out Human realms eyes


----------



## Turrin (Jul 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How do you think that scene was to be interpreted ?






> No.






> Again, versatility =/= skill or power.






> There isn't a "huge" gap in their base stats.







> And when you consider that their bread and butter is ninjutsu, and Sasuke's ninjutsu is at least as good as Jiraiya's(I understand that you don't want to accept that Sasuke is outright better), then I want you to expand on where that huge gap comes from.






> 1 technique is all Sasuke needs to be above Jiraiya.
> SM Jiraya's ninjutsu arsenal isn't that impressive either.






> There is no evidence for that.
> Actually I would easily place CS Sasuke above SM Jiraiya in terms of speed because he has better speed feats.






> Well this is s start. So you admit that Jiraiya needs SM here






> Except for Ninjutsu.






> Cough Deidara vs Sasuke caugh *


----------



## Turrin (Jul 10, 2015)

> Come on, base Sasuke has better speed feats than Jiraiya, with CS he should be able overwhelm him.
> By overwhelm I don't mean blitz or anything obviously.






> Sasuke survives Gamayu endan with Manda if you think he somehow can't with oral rebirth.







> Toad gourd barrier seal does what exactly ?






> Shape alteration itself doesn't mean anything. It only *comes into play*[/U} thorugh his arsenal and yes Jiraiya's rasengan can stalemate a base Chidori, but we knew that already.







> Sasuke's CS Katons would rape Jiraiya's base Katons.






> What suiton or fuuton Jiraiya has ?








> Jiraiya's strongest summon is Gamabunta and we know that Manda rapes him.






> It is OOC for Jiraiya to summon the whole toad mountain against Sasuke(he didn'T even do that against Pain), unless you think Jiraiya'd be too hard pressed against Sasuke.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Jiraiya's strongest summon is Gamabunta and we know that Manda rapes him.






> How does that show anything when it is irrelevant ?






> Why wouldn't Sasuke get Kirin off ?






> If jiraiya can use SM against him, then surely Sasuke can use Kirin as pulling off SM seeme harder than pulling off Kirin.






> I doubt it is anything significant though, otherwise it would be emphasized or pointed out.






> None gave a shit when Naruto used a bigger rasengan, they only did when he created FRS.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 10, 2015)

Thats a nice rebuttal.
Very substantial


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jul 10, 2015)

I love how when Uchiha wankers get bored they start wanking the uchiha in any thread they can find. Hebi sasuke would get wrecked by base Jiraiya, SM isn't even needed. Yomi gg. Rasangen to the head gg. Boss summon gg.

Hell I consider SM Jiraiya with prep superior to MS Sasuke. I cannot believe the insanity of the uchiha fans. 

After reading through this thread people like turrin have already shot down every wanker like grimmjow in every aspect leaving no room for argument yet the wankers wank on.


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## Trojan (Jul 10, 2015)

^

I am still trying to know why people fap over/wank him that much! 

The funny part is when they start whining "Kirin" he LITERALLY couldn't pull that off in ANY battle besides
with itachi because of the HUGE amount of Amatersu.  If he can use it like they make it out to be, he would
have used it AT LEAST once in his other battles which have foes far stronger than itachi. 



> Hell I consider SM Jiraiya with prep superior to MS Sasuke. I cannot believe the insanity of the uchiha fans.



He is superior to MS Sasuke. Hence why Kishi kept making the parallels between KCM Naruto and Jiraiya, early EMS Sasuke with Oro
and Sakura with the seal to Tsunade.


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## Turrin (Jul 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats a nice rebuttal.
> Very substantial


Yeah well a picture is worth a 1,000 words right  

And honestly there isn't much to discuss, Jiraiya can factually outperform Sasuke in nearly every Ninja-art. Ninjutsu is the only "debatable" one, but only because of Kirin, as outside of it Sasuke is completely outclassed in every regard Ninjutsu wise. But fuck even if I give Sasuke that area on the basis of Kirin, which is essentially the equivalent of charity on my part, he is still outclassed completely in every other regard, and is really no different than Wind-Arc Naruto who also is inferior to Jiraiya is in nearly every regard, but has one uber technique that is debatably better than any of Jiraiya Ninjutsu on an individual basis [50% FRS]. And Just like how Wind-Arc Naruto could win if he managed to survive long enough and land that Jutsu on Jiraiya, Sasuke could also win with Kirin, but it's vastly more likely that he is otherwise overwhelmed and killed by an otherwise vastly superior opponent like Jiraiya before then. 

You don't agree with this, because you believe Curse-Seal is an equivalent power up to Sennin Modo, to which I say good luck with that, because the manga has factually demonstrated SM's increases to be much more substantial to curse-seal and literally called CS a joke in comparison.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Yeah well a picture is worth a 1,000 words right
> 
> And honestly there isn't much to discuss, Jiraiya can factually outperform Sasuke in nearly every Ninja-art. Ninjutsu is the only "debatable" one, but only because of Kirin, as outside of it Sasuke is completely outclassed in every regard Ninjutsu wise. But fuck even if I give Sasuke that area on the basis of Kirin, which is essentially the equivalent of charity on my part, he is still outclassed completely in every other regard, and is really no different than Wind-Arc Naruto who also is inferior to Jiraiya is in nearly every regard, but has one uber technique that is debatably better than any of Jiraiya Ninjutsu on an individual basis [50% FRS]. And Just like how Wind-Arc Naruto could win if he managed to survive long enough and land that Jutsu on Jiraiya, Sasuke could also win with Kirin, but it's vastly more likely that he is otherwise overwhelmed and killed by an otherwise vastly superior opponent like Jiraiya before then.
> 
> You don't agree with this, because you believe Curse-Seal is an equivalent power up to Sennin Modo, to which I say good luck with that, because the manga has factually demonstrated SM's increases to be much more substantial to curse-seal and literally called CS a joke in comparison.



With all due respect, wind arc Naruto is also inferior to Sasuke in every aspect. That is not a good comparison at all.

I also didn't claim that CS is equal to SM, I am just against the notion that SM is on a completely different ballpark.
Granted, CS is like an inferior version of SM. But imperfect SM is also an inferior version of it. In  that regard, I don't the gap you keep mentioning exists between Jiraiya's power up and Sasuke's power up.

And for the millionth time, comparing their databook stats doesn't indicate who'd win in a fight. Jiraiya may be a more well rounded Shinobi than Sasuke, that doesn't mean Sasuke doesn't the arsenal to defeat Jiraiya. Speaking purely from combat perspective, Sasuke is more than enough to push Jiraiya to his limits.


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## Duhul10 (Jul 10, 2015)

Get over it grimm, you lost this debate.
Turrin, Hussain, T Shinobi or even others are too much for you, exactly how Jiraiya is too much for Hebi Sasuke.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 10, 2015)

If I had truly lost, then we wouldn't need you to state that I lost. Which means you'r just trying to shittalk or bait, in otherwords not contributing to the debate which means mods will delete that post of yours.


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## Turrin (Jul 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> With all due respect, wind arc Naruto is also inferior to Sasuke in every aspect. That is not a good comparison at all..


Stamina 

I also never said they were equals, I said that it's a similar situation. 



> I also didn't claim that CS is equal to SM, I am just against the notion that SM is on a completely different ballpark.
> Granted, CS is like an inferior version of SM. But imperfect SM is also an inferior version of it. In  that regard, I don't the gap you keep mentioning exists between Jiraiya's power up and Sasuke's power up.


SM Is in a completely different ballpark. There's no fucking way that Rescue-Sasuke-Arc Rookies would be defeating Sound-5 Members if they had Sennin Modo instead of Curse-Seal. There's no way two special Jonin exhausted from a prior mission could push the S4 so far, if the S4 had SM instead of CS. There's no way Naruto's KN1 Rasengan would be matching Sasuke's Kurokaminari-Chidori if CS2 offered the same boost as Sennin-Modo. For example:

Before CS, this Rasengan is equal to this Chidori:


After CS, this Chidori is equal to this Rasengan:


Now compare both KN1's Boosts and CS's Boost to fucking this:


You have to be smoking drugs to claim after seeing that stark difference, that the boost from CS is anywhere remotely near the boost from Sennin Modo. And Jiraiya's Sennin Modo isn't even the strength of 1 Sage, but three combined, as well as offer special abilities like sensing, ghost punches, and so on.

So yes Jiraiya's Sennin Modo boost is FAR out of the league of CS's boost. Give any S5 member Jiraiya's SM and they fucking rape the rookies and special Jonin. Give Sasuke Jiraiya's Sennin Modo at VOTE and his Chidori bitch slaps Naruto's KN1-Rasengan into next Tuesday. Give Juugo Jiraiya's Sennin Modo, whose actually well beyond the CS, and he would not be getting bitch slapped by Base-B, rather it would be the other way around. Give those Random Fodder Jiraiya's Sennin Modo and they would not be getting fodder fucked by Base-Sasuke's sword slash, suigetsu, and Juugo, and so on.

They aren't close and anyone being honest knows it.



> And for the millionth time, comparing their databook stats doesn't indicate who'd win in a fight. Jiraiya may be a more well rounded Shinobi than Sasuke, that doesn't mean Sasuke doesn't the arsenal to defeat Jiraiya. Speaking purely from combat perspective, Sasuke is more than enough to push Jiraiya to his limits.


I never said DB stats alone tells you who would win in a fight. It does however tell you who is better in certain areas, and if someone is literally better in everything taking DB Stats and the capabilities of Summons into consideration, than it's ridiculous to say they aren't likely to win.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 10, 2015)

Jiraiya makes quick work out of Sasuke, given the same circumstances. How this is even a debate is beyond me


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## Turrin (Jul 11, 2015)

The other thing that occurs to me is that Jiraiya, Fukasaku, and Shima can all use Fuuton, which means Sasuke's Raitons are going to be pitted against 3 Fuuton users at once, who can all enhance their Fuutons with Senjutsu. That's pretty much the better part of his arsenal right there and if he tries to counter with Katons, Jiraiya can use Suitons or his own Katons and again has Senjutsu to enhance them to overcome Sasuke's Katons fairly easily, and this is w/o even factoring in Bunta's Gama Yu Endan or Water Gunshot. So I don't really see how Sasuke can even get past Jiraiya's command over the elemental wheel.

And I think this is a under reported story in general from DBIV. For most people the fact that they are skilled enough to use a certain element in battle doesn't matter that much, but for Jiraiya to get 4 out of 5 elements is a huge deal, because even if he doesn't have great techniques in each element he has Senjutsu to enhance even basic elemental Jutsu's output tremendously, which is enough for him to convincingly exploit the elemental wheel against most fighters' arsenals.


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## Trojan (Jul 11, 2015)

> I also didn't claim that CS is equal to SM, I am just against the notion that SM is on a completely different ballpark.
> Granted, CS is like an inferior version of SM. But imperfect SM is also an inferior version of it. In that regard, I don't the gap you keep mentioning exists between Jiraiya's power up and Sasuke's power up.



That's saying since itachi's MS is below Sasuke's sharingan as stated by Oro and Obito, there is no big different
between his MS and the fodder's uchiha regular sharingan. 

Jiraiya does not have the best SM there is, just like how itachi does not have the best there is either. 
Naruto's SM is better than Jiraiya's, just like Sasuke's eyes are superior to itachi's.

Even tho Jiraiya's case is even better since he gets the 2 frogs to make up for that.

he is simply the superior shinobi. Thinking Jiraiya needs SM to freaking floor Hebi Sasuke is beyond ridiculous when he is clearly superior
to him in base!


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Stamina
> 
> I also never said they were equals, I said that it's a similar situation.


You are claiming that Hebi Sasuke is inferior to Jiraiya, and using a shinobi inferior to Hebi Sasuke to get your point across. Its not similar, its a fallacy.



> SM Is in a completely different ballpark. There's no fucking way that Rescue-Sasuke-Arc Rookies would be defeating Sound-5 Members if they had Sennin Modo instead of Curse-Seal. There's no way two special Jonin exhausted from a prior mission could push the S4 so far, if the S4 had SM instead of CS. There's no way Naruto's KN1 Rasengan would be matching Sasuke's Kurokaminari-Chidori if CS2 offered the same boost as Sennin-Modo. For example:
> 
> Before CS, this Rasengan is equal to this Chidori:
> 
> ...



Why is a Legendary Sannin's rasengan is being compared to 13 year old genin/chuuin ? 



> So yes Jiraiya's Sennin Modo boost is FAR out of the league of CS's boost. Give any S5 member Jiraiya's SM and they fucking rape the rookies and special Jonin. Give Sasuke Jiraiya's Sennin Modo at VOTE and his Chidori bitch slaps Naruto's KN1-Rasengan into next Tuesday. Give Juugo Jiraiya's Sennin Modo, whose actually well beyond the CS, and he would not be getting bitch slapped by Base-B, rather it would be the other way around. Give those Random Fodder Jiraiya's Sennin Modo and they would not be getting fodder fucked by Base-Sasuke's sword slash, suigetsu, and Juugo, and so on.


I disagree.
I think it depends on who is using it and their level of mastery.




> They aren't close and anyone being honest knows it.


I think imperfect SM and CS aren't as far apart as you r claiming them to be. Based on feats at least.



> I never said DB stats alone tells you who would win in a fight. It does however tell you who is better in certain areas, and if someone is literally better in everything taking DB Stats and the capabilities of Summons into consideration, than it's ridiculous to say they aren't likely to win.



Whats even more ridiculous is to ignore their arsenals when deciding on who'd win.

Sasuke has stat boosters and his strongest aspect is Ninjutsu, which he happens to be equal to Jiriaya, statistically(above him feat-wise).



Hussain said:


> That's saying since itachi's MS is below Sasuke's sharingan as stated by Oro and Obito, there is no big different
> between his MS and the fodder's uchiha regular sharingan.
> 
> Jiraiya does not have the best SM there is, just like how itachi does not have the best there is either.
> ...



I didn't get your point.


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## Hachibi (Jul 11, 2015)

This thread is basically Grim vs Turrin with fodder posting.

Also, I can't understand what you're saying Hussain.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 11, 2015)

There was a time when Itachi vs. Jiraiya threads were debated so hard, I remember one getting about around 400 posts.


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## Trojan (Jul 11, 2015)

My point was in response to this



> I also didn't claim that CS is equal to SM, I am just against the notion that SM is on a completely different ballpark.
> Granted, CS is like an inferior version of SM.* But imperfect SM is also an inferior version of it*. In that regard, I don't the gap you keep mentioning exists between Jiraiya's power up and Sasuke's power up.



Basically, Jiraiya's SM, although inferior to Narudo's SM, is still in a complete different level the CS as Turrin proved over and over again. We know that Itachi and Jiraiya are more or less equal (with Jiraiya being the superior shinobi and having the edge over itachi), and based on that, Kishi made Jiraiya's SM less than the perfect one to show Naruto's superior SM, just in the same way he made itachi's eyes weaker to show Sasuke's superior ones. 

I.E what Oro and Obito stated. 




So, just like that does not make itachi's eyes inferior to a stage clearly inferior (the sharingan), the same thing with Jiraiya not having a perfect SM does not make his on the same level as a clearly inferior level (CS). 


Kishi intended to parallel itachi and Jiraiya tell the end in that regards. Hence, the inferior main ability, the stats, a direct comparison, dying and passing down their strongest jutsu at the same time. Both work as spies, and so on...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> My point was in response to this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok now I get what you are trying to say, although you've overcomplicated it waaayy too much.

The level difference between sharingan, mangekyou sharingan and EMS(assuming PS is a part of it) is just massive. Which isn't exactly the same case between CS, imperfect SM and SM.

That is why from your point of view(the sharingan analogy) what I say doesn't make sense.

I also never said Jiraiya's SM and Sasuke's CS is on the same level, I admitted that CS is inferior.

I am just saying that there isn't a massive gap like Turrin(or others) are exaggerating.


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## Turrin (Jul 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You are claiming that Hebi Sasuke is inferior to Jiraiya, and using a shinobi inferior to Hebi Sasuke to get your point across. Its not similar, its a fallacy.


No I claimed that Hebi-Sasuke has 1 Jutsu that is better than any of Jiraiya's other Ninjutsu, which is comparable to how Wind-Arc Naruto has 1 Jutsu that is better than of Jiraiya's other Ninjutsu with 50% FRS.



> Why is a Legendary Sannin's rasengan is being compared to 13 year old genin/chuuin ?


What's the difference? It's not like Jiraiya's Base Rasengan is 10x the size of PI-Naruto's. It's not like Sasuke's Chidori was Chou Oddoma size in PII w/ CS2. I'm drawing the comparison because it shows the clear difference in how much each power up augment their abilities. SM increased Jiraiya's Rasengan to an extent that CS2 and it's more comparable power up, KN1, did not increase Naruto and Sasuke's Jutsu ever.



> I disagree.
> I think it depends on who is using it and their level of mastery.


I'll gladly make the threads.



> I think imperfect SM and CS aren't as far apart as you r claiming them to be. Based on feats at least.


What feats does CS have putting it anywhere near Imperfect SM. Where is Sasuke's Chou Oddoma Chidori. Where is Sasuke tossing around Boss Summons. Where is Sasuke's CS Sensing and Natural Energy attacks like Ghost Punches. etc....



> Whats even more ridiculous is to ignore their arsenals when deciding on who'd win.


I clearly accounted for their arsenal's, it's just that Jiraiya's is distinctly better than Sasuke's.



> Sasuke has stat boosters and his strongest aspect is Ninjutsu, which he happens to be equal to Jiriaya, statistically(above him feat-wise).


Outside of Kirin how is Sasuke above Jiraiya in Ninjutsu?

Jiraiya's Stat booster is leagues above Sasuke's.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 12, 2015)

Turrin said:


> No I claimed that Hebi-Sasuke has 1 Jutsu that is better than any of Jiraiya's other Ninjutsu, which is comparable to how Wind-Arc Naruto has 1 Jutsu that is better than of Jiraiya's other Ninjutsu with 50% FRS.


Repeating the same thing doesn't make it right.
Wind Arc Naruto is inferior to both Jiraiya and Sasuke by a significant margin, statistically and feat-wise.



> What's the difference? It's not like Jiraiya's Base Rasengan is 10x the size of PI-Naruto's. It's not like Sasuke's Chidori was Chou Oddoma size in PII w/ CS2. I'm drawing the comparison because it shows the clear difference in how much each power up augment their abilities. SM increased Jiraiya's Rasengan to an extent that CS2 and it's more comparable power up, KN1, did not increase Naruto and Sasuke's Jutsu ever.



What ? Sage mode didn't give Jiraiya the capability of creating an odaama rasengan. He already could do it, SM simply augmented it.
Do you really think his regular handsized rasengan became that big because of SM ?
Naruto can do this in base : asked _Shizune,_

Part 1 Naruto could only use hand size rasengan. Again a fallacious comparison.



> I'll gladly make the threads.


Be my guest.



> What feats does CS have putting it anywhere near Imperfect SM. Where is Sasuke's Chou Oddoma Chidori. Where is Sasuke tossing around Boss Summons. Where is Sasuke's CS Sensing and Natural Energy attacks like Ghost Punches. etc....


Sasuke is all about precision, not size. He doesn't have giant raitons with CS, because he doesn't have them in base. Raiton techs Sasuke uses are mostly piercing techniques.
Just look @ Sandaime. 1 finger nukite > 3 finger one.

CS gives Sasuke more durability than SM gives Jiraiya, it gives comparable speed boost, comparable chakra potency and it grants him wings which can be used for extra mobility.

Sage sensing and ghost punches are perfect SM traits, so those points are moot here.


> I clearly accounted for their arsenal's, it's just that Jiraiya's is distinctly better than Sasuke's.


No, Jiraiya's is distincly more diverse, not better.

Just look @ Obito, or Deva realm. They have 1 gimmick technique and thats all they need.
Why do you think a guy with 1000 jutsu lost to a guy with just 1 ?



> Outside of Kirin how is Sasuke above Jiraiya in Ninjutsu?


Why does he need to have more than 1 technique to show his superiority ? 
Rest of Sasuke's arsenal is comparable to Jiraiya's offense and defense. 
On the other hand, Jiraiya doesn't have a single jutsu that comes even close to Kirin.



> Jiraiya's Stat booster is leagues above Sasuke's.



Strength-wise maybe. Anything else ? No.


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## Duhul10 (Jul 12, 2015)

Wow what manga have you read ? 

SM Jiraiya >>>> in everything than CS2 Hebi Sauce
    strength - Sm Jiraiya
    speed - let's say comparable even though sage mode grants a greater speed boost
    durability-  Sm Jiraiya tanked a full power hit from a big summon with absolutely 0 injuries and while in base he needed to be impaled like 5 times, his throat to be smashed and then to be hit by Ashura explosing projectile to die and that after the use of sage mode which from what i remember usually lets the user in a terrible state after 
     senjutsu >>> ninjutsu
     genjutsu- Ma&pa say Hi
     taijutsu- 1 hit breaks his eyes, or taking it seriously Jiraya has this because of the superior bse stats and greater boost + frog katas
     One has sensing the other does not
     Jiraiya's summonings >>>>>> Manda
     In the DB Jiraiya >>>> Sasuke

I see that you still can't accept that Jiraiya has frog katas and sensing even though Kishi told us he has them and pretend that those abillities are only for perfect users even though that was never implied, not a single time.


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## Santoryu (Jul 12, 2015)

*sandals.

They wouldn't fit him                               .
Itachi: size 8
Jiraiya: size 12


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