# Hashirama vs. Minato (portrayal)



## trance (May 29, 2014)

Both of them are widely considered the strongest Hokage but who has the better portrayal between them?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 29, 2014)

Hashirama by a motherfucking landslide.

Not sure if this is open to debate.


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## Icegaze (May 29, 2014)

^^agreed. only minato fans consider minato remotely on the same level. 
they were the top in their era though. thats the only thing these 2 have in common


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## Veracity (May 29, 2014)

Hashirama by the most ridiculous margin ever. Feats really help Minato .


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## Icegaze (May 29, 2014)

They hardly help narrow that ridiculous margin. its so far and wide like the difference between super sayian 3 and super sayian


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 29, 2014)

base Hashirama is stronger than BM Minato (though Hashirama is about even with BM Naruto and EMS Madara), he takes this even easier in SM


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## Ghost (May 29, 2014)

Hashirama easily.

inb4 Torjan.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2014)

Minsto by a landscape. 

When Hashirama gets hyped by freaking Hagoromo then we might talk. 


Not only the sage, but even his mother. U_U


Even Minato was the most fearsome. Look at their hype in the Wars in their times. 

The only thing helpmg Hashirama over Minato is feats, since we have not seen Minato's full power while in base
and even in this war kishi cut his arm off since the very start of the fight, not allowing us to see anything from the let go. 

I'm waiting for you, Kai.


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## Phoenix Zoro (May 29, 2014)

Not even a contest. Even BM doesn't help Minato close the gap.

They are actually closer on feats, and even then, Hashirama is the superior by quite so way.


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## Itachі (May 29, 2014)

Hashirama. Pretty much everybody in the world revered him as the strongest Shinobi.


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## Thunder (May 29, 2014)

I'm pretty sure Hagoromo would refer to many Kage-level shinobi as being "excellent" too, if the context allowed for it. Especially the man who is the reincarnation of his son, Asura. The son Hagoromo bequeathed his legacy to.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2014)

Kai. 

I assume if you're going to be here, you will say something long those lines. 

Hashirama by feats, and a mile by portrayed. The god of shinobi, and the reincarnation of Asura is the strongest Hokage...blah blah blah

(I couldn't come with something after the "Hokage" part ) 

There is not strict from Kishi about the god of shinobi title. Minato's hype of being the child of the prophesy on the other hand has most strict and holds more important rule throughout the manga than "god of shinobi", the same of the title, the saviour of the world, which Minato fulfilled to some extant, kishi gave that much more time and importance than the gOS title, which he only mention one time or so, and then never return to it, or to its importance.

You might say "oh it's Naruto, not Minato", well, the same with Hashirama, that title went to Hiruzen after Hashirama's death, and he is no longer Asura's incarnation either as that became Naruto after Hashirama's death. So, that's that. 

In addition to the "flee on fights" order that were only given to Minato during the war, who by the way he ended it. Unlike Hashirama who got his ass handled to him in the first war. And even in the current war, Minato held a much more important role, and much more effective than Hashirama, who was completely useless. So, that's a petter feats/ hype for Minato again. 

Not to mention Minato's hype of being unsurpassable, or only Naruto who can surpass him. Yeah, that may be not true with all those JJ hosts, and Hagoromo's gifts...etc, but nevertheless hype.. 

and finally, Minato's Jutsu > obito > Hashirama. U_U

lol, I'm talking to myself. 



> I'm pretty sure Hagoromo would refer to many Kage-level shinobi as being "excellent" too, if the context allowed for it. Especially the man who is the reincarnation of his son, Asura. The son Hagoromo bequeathed his legacy to.



Well, too bad never happened. By this logic you can say pretty much anything about anyone. U_U


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## Thunder (May 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Well, too bad never happened. By this logic you can say pretty much anything about anyone. U_U



If you exaggerate what I mean, sure.


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## Cognitios (May 29, 2014)

So6P also hyped Kushina as being an excellent shinobi.
But if you think Kushina > Hashirama then you don't belong here.
As for the Kaguya thing, that puts him at Chojurou level.
Kaguya's will and knowledge, not body.
Hashirama by a landslide.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> So6P also hyped Kushina as being an excellent shinobi.
> But if you think Kushina > Hashirama then you don't belong here.
> As for the Kaguya thing, that puts him at Chojurou level.
> Kaguya's will and knowledge, not body.
> Hashirama by a landslide.



so you're saying since kishi hyped Kushina as well, and you do not like that, we should throw
her hype in the trash so you can be pleased? 

What do you know about Kushina other than her chains and barrier? Yeah, nothing... 

- you seem to salty. I suppose Chojuro and Minato are stronger than JJ Madara then who couldn't do shit. While Hashirama got lol fodder stomped by eyeless madara.


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## Krippy (May 29, 2014)

I'm gonna assume this is Edo Minato, since Alive Minato would get soloed by a wood clone.

Going by feats, hype, and portrayal, Edo Minato even with BM buffs is at best a hair stronger than Edo Itachi.

The best you can do is scale him to a standard Bijuudama, Which isn't anything Itachi can't deal with. Minato is nowhere near his son in terms of proficiency with his Bijuu. Not only that, Itachi can seal him at a range while Minato's only hope is to get within melee range, which is impossible due to Amaterasu blazing him or Susanoo sealing him as soon as he does.

These two are in no way comparable.  

inb4 Elia.


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## Kyu (May 29, 2014)

*Based on Feats:*
1.) Hashirama

_-Ridiculous Gap-_

2.) Minato 
3.) Tobirama

_-Smaller Gap-_

4.) Tsunade
5.) Hiruzen

*Portrayal:*
1.) Hashirama
-
-
2.) Minato (main character's father)
3.) Tobirama
4.) Hiruzen
5.) Tsunade


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## Phoenix Zoro (May 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> so you're saying since kishi hyped Kushina as well, and you do not like that, we should throw
> her hype in the trash so you can be pleased?
> 
> What do you know about Kushina other than her chains and barrier? Yeah, nothing...
> ...



When every other person on the forum disagrees with you on top of the manga outright contradicting you, doesn't it tell you that you may in fact be wrong?


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## Trojan (May 29, 2014)

I like how you throw edo itachi their, but he got schooled by Tauyaya. Try harder. That fodder
even fled from Jiraiya with help.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2014)

Phoenix Zoro said:


> When every other person on the forum disagrees with you on top of the manga outright contradicting you, doesn't it tell you that you may in fact be wrong?



Not really. 

put a thread 

Hashirama vs prime Hiruzen. 

Who do you think most of people would ride here? Hashirama. 
who do you think Kishi thinks is the superior of the two? Hiruzen. 

For example




> 1.) Hashirama
> 
> -Ridiculous Gap-
> 
> ...



Itachi vs Jiraiya.

who do you think will get wanked and will turn out to be superior? itachi
who do kishi thinks is the superior one? Jiraiya. 


Hashirama Vs the world, pre current level. 

most people were wanking over Hashirama's wood thinking he can solo the entire war. In reality he got his ass beaten by War 1 fodders. 

...etc


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## Phoenix Zoro (May 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Not really.
> 
> put a thread
> 
> ...



Anyone with an IQ of above 50 can tell Kishi retconned Hiruzen's GoS title and gave it to Shodai. If that wasn't the case, Hiruzen would be the star of the hokage. Surely even you can't believe Kishi stills want us to see Hiruzen as the strongest. (I wish he was the strongest hokage, shit would be epic, but he's clearly not meant to be anymore)

As for the Jiraiya and Itachi thing, Kishi has never even suggested Jiraiya is the superior, so you've pulled that straight out your arse.


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## Cognitios (May 29, 2014)

> so you're saying since kishi hyped Kushina as well, and you do not like that, we should throw
> her hype in the trash so you can be pleased?


No I am saying that the hype doesn't stand to the tier that you think it does.
Do you honestly think that Kushina > Hashirama?


> - you seem to salty. I suppose Chojuro and Minato are stronger than JJ Madara then who couldn't do shit. While Hashirama got lol fodder stomped by eyeless madara.


You are taking things out of context. An eyeless madara fodder stomped the 9 bijuu.
And for the thing with Obito/BZ beating juubidara for all we know obito use phasing kamui and put his arm through Madara and solidified himself.


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## ueharakk (May 29, 2014)

*There aren't any ninjas on the level of the First Hokage Senjuu Hashirama anymore.  All the people agree with that.  The people who heard about his strength consider him a fairy tale just like the Rikudou Sennin.*

That pretty much proves that Hashirama is more powerful than Minato and Prime Hiruzen since people don't consider either's power to be so great that it's a fairy tale, and people wouldn't consider Hashirama's power is unbelievable if someone like Minato/Hiruzen had were equal or more powerful than that.


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## Veracity (May 29, 2014)

Elia your hate for Hashirama is just plain ridiculous . Hashirama is the freaking god of Shinobi. Minato falls short every time.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> *There aren't any ninjas on the level of the First Hokage Senjuu Hashirama anymore.  All the people agree with that.  The people who heard about his strength consider him a fairy tale just like the Rikudou Sennin.*
> 
> That pretty much proves that Hashirama is more powerful than Minato and Prime Hiruzen since people don't consider either's power to be so great that it's a fairy tale, and people wouldn't consider Hashirama's power is unbelievable if someone like Minato/Hiruzen had were equal or more powerful than that.



Too bad, my dear, Kabuto said there is no one ALIVE on the same level as Hashirama. Minato was dead.  

so, that prove nothing.


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## ueharakk (May 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Too bad, my dear, Kabuto said there is no one ALIVE on the same level as Hashirama. Minato was dead.
> 
> so, that prove nothing.


Don't waste my time, read the ENTIRE POST and the ENTIRE QUOTE as minato or hiruzen being alive is completely irrelevant to the point Kabuto is making.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2014)

Phoenix Zoro said:


> Anyone with an IQ of above 50 can tell Kishi retconned Hiruzen's GoS title and gave it to Shodai. If that wasn't the case, Hiruzen would be the star of the hokage. Surely even you can't believe Kishi stills want us to see Hiruzen as the strongest. (I wish he was the strongest hokage, shit would be epic, but he's clearly not meant to be anymore)
> 
> As for the Jiraiya and Itachi thing, Kishi has never even suggested Jiraiya is the superior, so you've pulled that straight out your arse.



lol, just like how they thought he did the same with everything else like the 8th gate, the Sharingan and the Byakugan origin, and the Shukaku and the priest? 

- oh too bad, Hashirama is not the star of the Hokages in this war so he was retconned as well? 

- 
sure he did, onyone who's not itachi's fan know that




Cognitios said:


> No I am saying that the hype doesn't stand to the tier that you think it does.
> Do you honestly think that Kushina > Hashirama?
> 
> You are taking things out of context. An eyeless madara fodder stomped the 9 bijuu.
> And for the thing with Obito/BZ beating juubidara for all we know obito use phasing kamui and put his arm through Madara and solidified himself.



- I dunno about Kushina's power to begin with. What I'm saying kishi is clearly does not think of her as weak as you think, he compared her to Naruto several times as well, when Naruto accomplished KCM, BM, and BSM. The same Naruto who also was compared to Hashirama with BM.  

- Madara clearly stated that he can't even move.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Don't waste my time, read the ENTIRE POST and the ENTIRE QUOTE as minato or hiruzen being alive is completely irrelevant to the point Kabuto is making.





must be why kishi was so careful to put that "alive" there, rather than saying he is the strongest out flat that he is the strongest of all time.

and actually you're wasting our time with that quote since the very fact that Gai existed and he is tiers above Hashirama's level makes your entire point useless to begin with. 

Unless of course you think Hashirama is stronger than 8th gate Gai.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 29, 2014)

Kyu said:


> *Based on Feats:*
> *0.) Prime Hiruzen*
> 
> 1.) Hashirama
> ...



Fixed


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## ueharakk (May 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> must be why kishi was so careful to put that "alive" there, rather than saying he is the strongest out flat that he is the strongest of all time.


Kishi put alive there because of the existence of Rikudou sennin, and shinobi that 'people who are currently alive' wouldn't have knowledge about and shinobi who's feats and powers haven't been preserved in the history books.



Hussain said:


> and actually you're wasting our time with that quote since the very fact that Gai existed and he is tiers above Hashirama's level makes your entire point useless to begin with.


'people who are currently alive' have no knowledge about 8th gated Gai or his capabilities, so Gai's existence has absolutely nothing to do with the quote.

Answer the question Hussain.  If Minato and Prime Hiruzen were actually stronger than Hashirama, why do people not consider their power a fairy tale as well?  Why do people consider Hashirama and Rikudou Sennin's power so unbelievably great when they've been around and know about Minato and Prime Hiruzen?


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 29, 2014)

The real problem here are Kishi's retcons in general and to the power scale. He made a thing of the new gen surpassing the old and yet the older guys are hilariously stronger (until Rikudou powerup)


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## Kyu (May 29, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Fixed



Prime Hiruzen is above the Tooth Fairy but below Santa Claus.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 29, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Prime Hiruzen is above the Tooth Fairy but below Santa Claus.



Only because Santa's beard is longer


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## Turrin (May 29, 2014)

All of Minato's hype is primarily about his potential, genius, and how great shinobi material he was, which is not the same thing as "strength". Way I see it, is Minato would have become the strongest shinobi ever, but he died too soon. As for how he stacks up to Hashirama the very fact that Hashirama defeated Kurama and a stronger Uchiha without dying, tells us he is stronger than Minato, and I do not think his Kyuubi-chakra power up was enough to make up the difference.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 29, 2014)

1. Hashirama
2. Minato
3. Tobirama
4. Tsunade
5. Hiruzen

It's that simple.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Kishi put alive there because of the existence of Rikudou sennin, and shinobi that 'people who are currently alive' wouldn't have knowledge about and shinobi who's feats and powers haven't been preserved in the history books.
> 
> 
> 'people who are currently alive' have no knowledge about 8th gated Gai or his capabilities, so Gai's existence has absolutely nothing to do with the quote.
> ...



- except he did not really exclude "Hagoromo" alone. He excluded all the dead. Some of which are Hiruzen and Minato. So, unless you can read what in kishi's head you simply can't use that as a proof of your point. Especially when kishi actually stated that "Hiruzen" is stronger than him, for example. 

he was specific enough to exclude the dead, and you just should respect that and the context, rather than pretending that you know what kishi was thinking of. 

- Says who? The very fact that Kakashi mentioned about the 8th gate and it's ability since part 1 and how it made its user exceeds the Hokage's level make your point irrelevant once again. As a matter of fact even Lee know about the 8th gate and how it works.
*this blast*

Now, when was the stated? Yes, in part 1. 
Did people claim before that it was retconned? Yes, they did.
Were they right? No they were not. 

so those are some people who are alive and know about it. Not as if that serves your point either way. As if they are alive and do not know about a guy's full ability who's alive in their time, what makes you think that they knows about the other full ability of the others? And even if they did, it's again not in your favour as they considered Hiruzen's power to be greater than Hashirama. 

- Why does it have to be the same words? 
If Minato's power was not "so great" why would someone like A think no one can surpass him?
or why would Jiraiya thinks everyone pales in Comparison to Minato? Or that only Naruto who's capable of surpassing his father?

The same with Hiruzen, they consider his power to be so great that they hailed him as the strongest Hokage in history. There is noway they saw him walking on the park and called him the strongest for no reason. His ability to use every jutsu in konoha, and the fact that he was called a god of shinobi surely did not come for no reason either. 

I do not know who those people who thought of Hashirama like that, nor what did they believe about him and what they did not believe. The thing is, they did not simply assume Hashirama as fodder, but they hailed him as a ultimate shinobi since part 1.



so even IF they did not believe about his full ability, that nothing to suggest that they did not believe ANYTHING about his power. At the very least they believed in his power to the point of calling him that.

As a matter of fact, kakashi, was very well informed that he knows that their power (Hashirama & Madara) was great enough to create the valley. 
*this blast*

and he even make him worthy enough to state that Naruto surpassed the Hokages, so if he know nothing, how can he possibly have the right to judge Naruto's power compare to them? 

*****
anyway, I'm done. So much Hashirama for one day. lol 

Will see in the up coming fight in the manga.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 29, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> 1. Hashirama
> 2. Minato
> 3. Tobirama
> 4. Tsunade
> ...



No, just no


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 29, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> No, just no



Based on feats, yes. I don't care for his irrelevant part 1 hype.


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## Turrin (May 29, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Based on feats, yes. I don't care for his irrelevant part 1 hype.


Hiruzen feats are at least as good as Tsunade's and at least within the realm of Tobirama


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## Kaiser (May 29, 2014)

Hashirama has better hype by far than base Minato. However against BM Minato i'm not so sure considering he was never showed at full power. At the start of the war, he couldn't use BM and at the moment he could use it, he already lost one of his arms, so he was never really showed at full power. The fact his power remained hidden makes me favor him over Hashirama more times than not


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## Bonly (May 29, 2014)

Yeah Hashi is portrayed as the stronger of the two, only people who are fanboys of Minato and/or hate Hashi would say otherwise.


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## ueharakk (May 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - except he did not really exclude "Hagoromo" alone. He excluded all the dead. Some of which are Hiruzen and Minato. So, unless you can read what in kishi's head you simply can't use that as a proof of your point. Especially when kishi actually stated that "Hiruzen" is stronger than him, for example.


That's why i don't use that part of the quote as a positive argument for my point.  It's the other part of the quote that I use where it talks about his power being beyond belief that i used for my argument.  



Hussain said:


> he was specific enough to exclude the dead, and you just should respect that and the context, rather than pretending that you know what kishi was thinking of.


Excluding the dead isn't a positive argument for either of our cases since the dead include people like RS and people weaker than konohomaru, which is why that's not the part of the quote that I am refering to.



Hussain said:


> - Says who? The very fact that Kakashi mentioned about the 8th gate and it's ability since part 1 and how it made its user exceeds the Hokage's level make your point irrelevant once again. As a matter of fact even Lee know about the 8th gate and how it works.
> _Kunai to the ground._


Lee knows about the move that Gai uses in the 8th gate, nothing about the power that it grants the user.  Kakashi's statement in part one was 'hokage' not ALL HOKAGE, or any specific Hokage and it was falsified later by Dai needing to open the 8th gate in order to fight the seven swordsmen of the mist which proves that the 8th gate grants one a powerup, not a set level of power.  



Hussain said:


> Now, when was the stated? Yes, in part 1.
> Did people claim before that it was retconned? Yes, they did.
> Were they right? No they were not.


they were right as the 8th gate does not automatically give a person power beyond the hokage, it all depends on how powerful the person who uses the 8th gate is which is why Dai, even in the 8th gate couldn't beat the seven swordsman as we know at least 2 of those swordsmen survived the fight while Dai died.



Hussain said:


> so those are some people who are alive and know about it. Not as if that serves your point either way. *As if they are alive and do not know about a guy's full ability who's alive in their time, what makes you think that they knows about the other full ability of the others?* And even if they did, it's again not in your favour as they considered Hiruzen's power to be greater than Hashirama.


The bolded: because Gai has never ever used the 8th gate, and thus they don't know what he's capable of while Minato and Hiruzen's capabilities are widely known by all due to their many fights in the wars and status as Hokage.  If they considered hiruzen's power to be greater than Hashirama's, then it's only because they didn't believe the historical records of what Hashirama was capable of.



Hussain said:


> - Why does it have to be the same words?
> If Minato's power was not "so great" why would someone like A think no one can surpass him?
> or why would Jiraiya thinks everyone pales in Comparison to Minato? Or that only Naruto who's capable of surpassing his father?


If you want to take quotes as literal and completely ignore the context, SM Naruto surpassed *Minato and Jiraiya here.*

Ei's statement doesn't have anything to do with people in the past since that would mean Minato is a higher bar than RS which is obviously false.  
Unless you believe that no one in the entire manga > minato then jiraiya's statements about minato are only valid in the context he's using them in, not to the giants of history, nor the giants of the present.



Hussain said:


> The same with Hiruzen, they consider his power to be so great that they hailed him as the strongest Hokage in history. There is noway they saw him walking on the park and called him the strongest for no reason. His ability to use every jutsu in konoha, and the fact that he was called a god of shinobi surely did not come for no reason either.


Yeah, they hailed him as that back in part 1 before their performances as edo tensei were retconned.  And also, if people don't believe that hashirama had the abilities that history attributed to him, then it's no surprise that people are going to hail prime hiruzen as more powerful than Hashi.



Hussain said:


> I do not know who those people who thought of Hashirama like that, nor what did they believe about him and what they did not believe. The thing is, they did not simply assume Hashirama as fodder, but they hailed him as a ultimate shinobi since part 1.


Thats because as Kabuto stated, none of those people believed hashirama was capable of the things he actually did in his lifetime.  His level was just far above the other hokages and what they were capable of that they disbelieved it, and thus out of the 4 remaining prime hiruzen would look like the best pick or minato might seem unsurpassable.  Why do you think the fodder alliance members and even Hashirama's grandaughter were so surprised *at Hashirama's LOWER END jutsu?*



Hussain said:


> so even IF they did not believe about his full ability, that nothing to suggest that they did not believe ANYTHING about his power. At the very least they believed in his power to the point of calling him that.


Which means that all those comparisons about hiruzen to hashirama would have been against a severely gimped and weaker hashirama, one that couldn't even use things like mokujin considering Tsunade the current hokage had no idea that Hashirama fought things like PS.



Hussain said:


> As a matter of fact, kakashi, was very well informed that he knows that their power (Hashirama & Madara) was great enough to create the valley.
> *at Hashirama's LOWER END jutsu?*


How is that being well informed about the capabilities of Hashirama?  Creating the valley of the end is something even bee can do.  BM Naruto and Bee's combined bijuudama created a valley that could fit the entire Juubi in it BEFORE it even exploded.  If all kakashi knows about hashirama is that he and madara combined could create that valley, then it's obvious that their information isn't doing hashirama justice.



Hussain said:


> and he even make him worthy enough to state that Naruto surpassed the Hokages, so if he know nothing, how can he possibly have the right to judge Naruto's power compare to them?


Because Naruto is using Rikudousenjutsu, and doing things on par with cutting the shinjuu in half and beating on JJ Madara while Hashirama was only EMS Madara's equal in real life.


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## Fiiction (May 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Not really.
> 
> put a thread
> 
> ...



Stfu, u don't know how hashirama died, for all we know hashirama could've been killed by some devious plan madara cane up with.

I know you're in love with Minato, but to try and debate about him be portrayed above hashirama is blasphemy. Hashirama and madara were portrayed as the ones who started everything,  the one who brought the world together because of their power. Minato, well he saved konoha from the nine tails by sacrificing himself. Hashirama
Baby sat kurama And other bijuu.


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## ARGUS (May 30, 2014)

How is this debatable????
Hashirama is leagues above minato if we go by portrayal,,,,

-He was known as the GOD OF SHINOBI
-His power was considered a fairytail jus like the SO6P
-He was captured all the bijuus,,,(including kurama),, which Minato died from,,,,,
-Fought Madara and Kurama,,, and WON,,,, 
-Madara stated  that the gokage (who can beat alive Minato) are poop in comparison to Hashirama,,, 
-Hashirama was the descendant of Ashura,,, 
-The guy had chakra levels comparable to a bijuu,,,, 
-Had medical ninjutsu without the need of any seals,,,,,
-Hashirama had the ability to create forests with jus one mokuton variant,,,,
-Hashirama was the first man to create the shinobi village system,,,,, and also managed to unite the 5 great nations for a short amount of time,,,

I think these statements shud make it clear for even a donkey that hashirama is much higher than the yellow flash,,,,


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## Elite Uchiha (May 30, 2014)

I would have said Hashirama awhile ago, but after he got one paneled by Incomplete Juubito and then stated he was weaker than said person....lets just say I think less of Hashirama. 

Not to mention Hashirama has been a non factor in this war compared to Minato. Adding that into the "war portrayal", Minato is above Hashirama.


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## ARGUS (May 30, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> I would have said Hashirama awhile ago, but after he got one paneled by Incomplete Juubito and then stated he was weaker than said person....lets just say I think less of Hashirama.
> 
> Not to mention Hashirama has been a non factor in this war compared to Minato. Adding that into the "war portrayal", Minato is above Hashirama.



Hashiramas clone got one shotted by Juubito,,, 
and using him is a terrible example,, 
since Juubito would poop stomp any of the hokages individually,,
minato also had the backup of naruto, sasuke and tobirama during the fight,,, and comparing his performance against juubito to hashirama who was jus by himself,,, is not fair,,,

-if it wasnt for hashirama,, madara would have wrecked most of the hokages himself,,, thereby leaving the rest to juubito,, who wouldve  annihilated them


----------



## Fiiction (May 30, 2014)

There's a reason kishi kept hashirama off panel during the fight against juubito.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (May 30, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Hashiramas clone got one shotted by Juubito,,,
> and using him is a terrible example,,
> since Juubito would poop stomp any of the hokages individually,
> minato also had the backup of naruto, sasuke and tobirama during the fight,,, and comparing his performance against juubito to hashirama who was jus by himself,,, is not fair,,,
> ...



Meh, INC Juubito couldnt stomp BM Minato, so there is that right there. Additionally, Hashirama was "not by himself" vs Juubito considering Tobirama was right beside him. He just got blitzed so fast he could not react. 


To your second point, lets not start this. Because I could easily say "if it wasnt for Minato saving the alliance twice...." you get where I am going here.  Moreover, Madara was weaker than Juubito, so I doubt there would be much "wrecking".


----------



## Icegaze (May 30, 2014)

Actually i think the gap is closer to super sayian 4 and freezer first form. hashirama being goku SSJ4. 
they aren't remotely comparable. 
Hashirama clone can kill minato. I would think the brother of the inventor of hirashin knows how to troll the jutsu considering madara by just being on the same battlefield as tobirama trolled edo tensei. So did hashirama btw. 

tobirama jutsu are common place to madara and hashirama. 

minato is a tobirama dub. slightly faster thats about it


----------



## Veracity (May 30, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> I would have said Hashirama awhile ago, but after he got one paneled by Incomplete Juubito and then stated he was weaker than said person....lets just say I think less of Hashirama.
> 
> Not to mention Hashirama has been a non factor in this war compared to Minato. Adding that into the "war portrayal", Minato is above Hashirama.



Get this shit out of here.

His BASE CLONE was destroyed, and this is mostly contributed to the fact that Obitos speed level jumped leaps and bounds and not a single ninja could account for such. Then right after his clones was shown restraining Juubito and aiding in a tag team attack.

Hashirama was actually saving everyone's ass constantly. If someone wasn't there to hold of Edo EMS Madara he could have soloed the entire alliance bar Naruto and Sasuke.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 30, 2014)

Minato can't touch Hashirama's portrayal. 

Even with 50% Kyuubi, I still believe Hashirama is tiers above him.
At best, Edo Minato is is marginally stronger than Edo Itachi, and Hashirama would annihilate the latter.


----------



## Hasan (May 30, 2014)

Hashirama, obviously. Being Ashura's incarnation on top of all the hype he received thus far makes him superior in pretty much every regard.



Elite Uchiha said:


> Meh, INC Juubito couldnt stomp BM Minato, so there is that right there. Additionally, Hashirama was "not by himself" vs Juubito considering Tobirama was right beside him. He just got blitzed so fast he could not react.



Comical, I would say.


----------



## RAGING BONER (May 30, 2014)

Hashirama could crush Minato just be releasing his chakra.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 30, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Minato can't touch Hashirama's portrayal.
> 
> Even with 50% Kyuubi, I still believe Hashirama is tiers above him.
> At best, Edo Minato is is *marginally stronger than Edo Itachi*, and Hashirama would annihilate the latter.



Marginally?


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 30, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Marginally?



Marginally, yes.
Itachi/Minato were the second benchmark for Naruto and Sasuke (after Sannin).

Edo Tensei offered the two of them something their living bodies lacked: chakra and offensive power. 


Living Minato has nothing on Itachi in offense or versatility, but he's got speed and better chakra reserves. Edo Tensei gave him the power he needs, while it provided Itachi with the energy. His illness and low reserves were major handicaps, which is why he's a different beast through ET.

Kishi always viewed the two as equals in my eyes.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 30, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Marginally, yes.
> Itachi/Minato were the second benchmark for Naruto and Sasuke (after Sannin).
> 
> Edo Tensei offered the two of them something their living bodies lacked: chakra and offensive power.
> ...



There is no marginally. Edo Minato possess BM, which is far superior to anything Itachi has. Edo Minato has far greater firepower, speed, chakra reserves, physical strength, etc. He far outclasses Itachi in practically everything. Only Itachi fanboys dispute this, which to say the least isn't surprising.


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## ueharakk (May 30, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Marginally, yes.
> Itachi/Minato were the second benchmark for Naruto and Sasuke (after Sannin).
> 
> Edo Tensei offered the two of them something their living bodies lacked: chakra and offensive power.
> ...



Who's stronger, EMS Sasuke or edo itachi?


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 30, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Who's stronger, EMS Sasuke or edo itachi?



EMS Sasuke is the stronger one because of PS.
On the same note, BM Naruto is stronger than Edo Minato because of COFRS and TKB; he uses his techniques more cunningly, as well. I also think Naruto is more innovative than Minato.

Minato's barriers are pretty useless against Naruto, as Kage Bunshin can send attacks from several directions. Hiraishin won't be an issue with Naruto's reflexes and sensing. 

However, neither Edo Itachi nor Edo Minato can be sealed by their counterparts, which is why it's an automatic win for both...but that's not a fair comparison. In my opinion, they're closer to each other more than the two we're speaking of.



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> There is no marginally.



To each his own.



> Edo Minato possess BM, which is far superior to anything Itachi has.



On what basis, exactly?



> Edo Minato has far greater firepower,



...which is negated by Itachi's better defense and legendary weapons. 



> speed,



...which is negated by Itachi's reflexes. So there's going to be no blitz.



> chakra reserves,



...which is irrelevant against a zombie that has regenerating chakra.



> physical strength,



...which is completely unsubstantiated. 
Bijuu and Susano'o are parallels in physical strength. 

I actually give the advantage to Itachi in CQC, as his Totsuka no Tsurugi isn't anything to laugh at.



> etc.



Enlighten me.



> He far outclasses Itachi in practically everything.



-snip-

You're wasting my time. 
I don't know why I'm responding to you.



> Only Itachi fanboys dispute this, which to say the least isn't surprising.



-snip-
Is there something going on here? 

What am I saying?
They're equals.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 30, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> On what basis, exactly?



On the basis that BM Minato is practically the same as BM Naruto who is far superior to Itachi.



> ...which is negated by Itachi's better defense and legendary weapons.



Itachi's weapons aren't blocking a BB that BM can put out. Unless you want to show me panels of those weapons blocking attacks that casually level mountains even without them being charged. 



> ...which is negated by Itachi's reflexes. So there's going to be no blitz.



So Itachi's capable of reacting to somebody faster than BM Naruto (Minato already had far better base speed than Naruto so obviously his BM speed would be much better as well)? You're a funny guy.



> ...which is irrelevant against a zombie that has regenerating chakra.



Doesn't really matter. It's another aspect in which Minato's far superior. 



> Bijuu and Susano'o are parallels in physical strength.



No they're not.  When susanoo can pick up other bijuu and casually toss them around then we'll talk. PS would be the only thing capable of that and Itachi doesn't have that nor a susanoo that comes anywhere close to it. 



> I actually give the advantage to Itachi in CQC, as his Totsuka no Tsurugi isn't anything to laugh at.



You really are a funny guy. When Itachi's susanoo has the mobility, strength and speed that Kurama has then we can talk.



> Enlighten me.



I already have.



> And that's something that comes from a Minato fanboy.



Except I'm not. 



> You're wasting my time.



More like you're wasting mine with your ridiculous nonsense.



> I don't know why I'm responding to you.



I don't know either because so far you've yet to provide any substantiated statements that suggest Edo Minato is only marginally above Edo Itachi.



> Only Minato fanboys say he's far stronger than Itachi.
> Is there something going on here?
> 
> What am I saying?
> They're equals.




More like people who have common sense say Edo Minato is far stronger than Itachi and that's because he is. 

When Itachi can casually produce attacks that level mountains then we'll talk. When Itachi has the speed to blow tbbs away simply by blowing past them then we'll talk. When Itachi can physically toss other bijuu around then we'll talk. When Itachi can do all these things then you might have something resembling a decent argument. Until then you're wasting my time with your utter nonsense and I'm not going to entertain it any longer. So if you wish to continue making yourself look foolish then more power to you but I have no interest in helping you along the way.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 30, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> On the basis that BM Minato is practically the same as BM Naruto who is far superior to Itachi.



No, he isn't.
BM Naruto is better than Edo Minato is nearly every area.



> Itachi's weapons aren't blocking a BB that BM can put out. Unless you want to show me panels of those weapons blocking attacks that casually level mountains even without them being charged.



Unless you can show me panels of Minato using Bijuudama that are on par with Naruto's?



> So Itachi's capable of reacting to somebody faster than BM Naruto? You're a funny guy.



Considering he and Sasuke have similar activation speeds with Susano'o, it isn't such a stretch to think blitzes will fail. A limb grabs Minato and forces the guy to teleport via Hiraishin. That also depends on the knowledge in a match-up. 

Full knowledge? A blitz is never going to occur. 
No knowledge? Genjutsu rape is likelier than speed blitz.

The "partner method" is useless against techniques akin to Tsukuyomi, too...in the case you think Minato is going to blitz Itachi. If anything, he's better off keeping his distance. 



> Doesn't really matter. It's another aspect in which Minato's far superior.



Something that doesn't matter in a fight between them, too.
Are you trying to make a point?



> No they're not.  When susanoo can pick up other bijuu and casually toss them around then we'll talk. PS would be the only thing capable of that and Itachi doesn't have that nor a susanoo that comes anywhere close to it.
> 
> You really are a funny guy. When Itachi's susanoo has the mobility, strength and speed that Kurama has then we can talk.



Umm... No.
PS would literally slaughter any Bijuu in physical combat.

The only thing that puts their "offensive power" on a similar level is Bijuudama. 
If we're restricted to physical strength, PS stomps on any Bijuu and breaks its neck.

Anything that's not PS is the fairer comparison.



> I already have.



That doesn't seem to be the case.



> Except I'm not.



...which makes you an Itachi hater and/or downplayer, then?
But I'll go with Minato fanboy for now.



> More like you're wasting mine with your ridiculous nonsense.



Interesting.
...because it seems like you're the one who has been uttering nonsense since that dumb gif.



> I don't know either because so far you've yet to provide any substantiated statements that suggest Edo Minato is only marginally above Edo Itachi.



I guess that's where we see things differently.



> More like people who have common sense say Edo Minato is far stronger than Itachi and that's because he is.



Again... On what basis?
I can say the same thing about you. 

Maybe you don't have any common sense, considering you're unable to provide anything with substance?



> When Itachi can casually produce attacks that level mountains then we'll talk. When Itachi has the speed to blow tbbs away simply by blowing past them then we'll talk. When Itachi can physically toss other bijuu around then we'll talk. When Itachi can do all these things then you might have something resembling a decent argument. Until then you're wasting my time with your utter nonsense.



And Minato hasn't done any of these things. So what's your point.

Someone is just downplaying a hated character and/or mad because they come on the forum to see their favorite character being challenged. 

We're aware of the parallels. 
We know their advantages and disadvantages. 

Someone's in denial...but it isn't me.


----------



## ueharakk (May 30, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> EMS Sasuke is the stronger one because of PS.
> On the same note, BM Naruto is stronger than Edo Minato because of COFRS and TKB; he uses his techniques more cunningly, as well. I also think Naruto is more innovative than Minato.
> 
> Minato's barriers are pretty useless against Naruto, as Kage Bunshin can send attacks from several directions. Hiraishin won't be an issue with Naruto's reflexes and sensing.


Would you put edo Minato on an entirely lower tier than people like BM Naruto or EMS Sasuke?   If BM Minato has BM Naruto's power + the ability to teleport, why would PS make EMS Sasuke stronger?  BM Naruto was capable of making bijuudamas the size of Madara's PS, how can EMS Sasuke beat someone who can do that AND teleport himself and his own bijuudamas around?  

This isn't a versus thread, this is a character portrayal thread, so how minato's moveset stacks up against BM Naruto's moveset is irrelevant as we are talking power levels and tiers.  

Plus, even if it was a versus thread, what can naruto's clones possibly throw that would be a legitimate threat to Minato's BM avatar?  Even if they did have something, why doesn't minato just teleport out of there instead of trying to warp the individual attacks?  Hirashin is always an issue, even for JJs, the only time it's not is in the situation where the hirashin user is going on the offensive and trying to pull off a blitz.  Defensively, it's still a major factor even at that level.





King Itachi said:


> However, neither Edo Itachi nor Edo Minato can be sealed by their counterparts, which is why it's an automatic win for both...but that's not a fair comparison. In my opinion, they're closer to each other more than the two we're speaking of.


This thread isn't a versus thread, it's a character portrayal thread.  Kishi doesn't portray an edo above a non edo by default if the non edo doesn't have a way to seal it.  I would agree that BM Minato is closer to edo itachi than Base Minato is to SM Hashirama.


----------



## Nikushimi (May 30, 2014)

Hashirama, no contest.

Even with Bijuu Mode, it takes more than half of the Kyuubi to surpass Hashirama; Madara with a complete Kyuubi couldn't do it.



Icegaze said:


> They hardly help narrow that ridiculous margin. its so far and wide like the difference between super sayian 3 and super sayian



Well, Hashirama does have longer hair... 



Hussain said:


> Minsto by a *landscape*.



What?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 30, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> What?




I think he read this and rage typed as a retaliation.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hashirama by a motherfucking landslide.


----------



## Jagger (May 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Not only the sage, but even his mother. U_U


And he also said Itachi was pretty much invencible, right?  But I'd rather leae sarcasm aside.

Kaguya's will =/= Kaguya's entire power being contained within Black Zetsu's body.

The thing is strong, however, not as strong as you're making it look. He was never hyped to the strongest, he's just an opportunist. He manipulated both Obito and Madara when they were off-guard or too weakened in order to defend themselves. Not only that, but half of Obito's body is made of Zetsu cells, which allowed BZ to control him and there's probably something that connects both him and Madara.


----------



## ARGUS (May 30, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Meh, INC Juubito couldnt stomp BM Minato, so there is that right there. Additionally, Hashirama was "not by himself" vs Juubito considering Tobirama was right beside him. He just got blitzed so fast he could not react.


-Minato in BM/KCM was backed up by Naruto/Sasuke and Tobirama,,,, 
If Minato had to fight him alone,,, he wouldve gotten beheeded through onmyodon
Hashirama on the other hand only had his base clone,,,destroyed,,,,meanwhile Tobirama prepped GKF even though yh he diid get blitzed,,,,,


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## Elite Uchiha (May 30, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Get this shit out of here.
> 
> His BASE CLONE was destroyed, and this is mostly contributed to the fact that Obitos speed level jumped leaps and bounds and not a single ninja could account for such. Then right after his clones was shown restraining Juubito and aiding in a tag team attack.



Clone or not, Shodai admitted that he was weaker than INC Juubito. Whether you want to believe him or not is not up to me. 



> Hashirama was actually saving everyone's ass constantly. If someone wasn't there to hold of Edo EMS Madara he could have soloed the entire alliance bar Naruto and Sasuke.



Oh, I can play this game too! If Minato didnt save the whole alliance twice, the Juubi could have soloed the *everyone *in the alliance. In addition, if Minato wasn't there helping Naruto with the Complete Juubito (far stronger than EMS Madara I might add), Complete Juubito would have soloed the entire alliance.


----------



## Veracity (May 31, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Clone or not, Shodai admitted that he was weaker than INC Juubito. Whether you want to believe him or not is not up to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I can play this game too! If Minato didnt save the whole alliance twice, the Juubi could have soloed the *everyone *in the alliance. In addition, if Minato wasn't there helping Naruto with the Complete Juubito (far stronger than EMS Madara I might add), Complete Juubito would have soloed the entire alliance.



He is weaker then Juubito. But so is any version of Minato . 

The alliance would never have been in that situation if Sage Hashirama was there helping Naruto and co as back up.

Minato didn't do shit on his own though. That's the point. He had BM Naruto, EMS Sasuke , Edo Tobirama, Edo Hirzuen, and various squads of the alliance helping him the entire time, and in the end he didn't contribute to Juubitos defeat in the slightest.  If you had replaced Minato with Hashirama then they would have defeated Juubito with less trouble.


----------



## LostSelf (May 31, 2014)

Hashirama is clearly the strongest of the Hokages. The strongest of the Kages.


----------



## trance (May 31, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Hashirama is clearly the strongest of the Hokages. The strongest of the Kages.



Not soon-to-be Rokudaime Hokage Naruto/Sasuke.


----------



## Fiiction (May 31, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> He is weaker then Juubito. But so is any version of Minato .
> 
> The alliance would never have been in that situation if Sage Hashirama was there helping Naruto and co as back up.
> 
> Minato didn't do shit on his own though. That's the point. He had BM Naruto, EMS Sasuke , Edo Tobirama, Edo Hirzuen, and various squads of the alliance helping him the entire time, and in the end he didn't contribute to Juubitos defeat in the slightest.  If you had replaced Minato with Hashirama then they would have defeated Juubito with less trouble.



Minato had no chance at soloing juubito neither did hashirama, no one did at that time. Minato saved the alliances ass twice, there's no denying that tho.


----------



## Azula (May 31, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Even with Bijuu Mode, it takes more than half of the Kyuubi to surpass Hashirama;



Good thing then that Minato has Hiraishin and Variants

Cant catch or redirect teleporting bijuudamas can you? boom, there goes hashirama


----------



## Fiiction (May 31, 2014)

-Azula- said:


> Good thing then that Minato has Hiraishin and Variants
> 
> Cant catch or redirect teleporting bijuudamas can you? boom, there goes hashirama



SS catches them like tennis balls.


----------



## Azula (May 31, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> SS catches them like tennis balls.



it doesnt 

bijuu dama can be telepoted to any mark near shinsusenju after which it will explode
its entirely different to throwing a bijuudama whose trajectory hashirama can see and move his mokuton hands  to catch it accordingly


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 31, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Would you put edo Minato on an entirely lower tier than people like BM Naruto or EMS Sasuke?



I place Edo Minato a tier below BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke; he's around Edo Itachi's level.

BM Naruto/EMS Sasuke >> Edo Minato >/= Edo Itachi > KCM Naruto >/=MS Sasuke > Living Minato >> SM Naruto > Hebi Sasuke

Two ">>" indicate there's a gap of one tier.



> If BM Minato has BM Naruto's power + the ability to teleport, why would PS make EMS Sasuke stronger?



That's the thing... Edo Minato doesn't have BM Naruto's power, and portrayal has never indicated that he's able to use Bijuu Mode with the same proficiency as his son. His Sage Mode is utter shit, and I wouldn't be surprised if BM was any different. As soon as he came back from Edo Tensei, the entire character was retconned. The guy was intended to be some genius that can only be surpassed by Ashura's reincarnation, and that already happened in two vessels: Hashirama and Naruto. They're leagues above Minato and can't be remotely compared. 



> BM Naruto was capable of making bijuudamas the size of Madara's PS, how can EMS Sasuke beat someone who can do that AND teleport himself and his own bijuudamas around?



I never believed Super Bijuudama is capable of breaching PS, so it doesn't really change anything. 
It's the greatest defense in this manga, so the entity deserves that kind of treatment. 



> This isn't a versus thread, this is a character portrayal thread, so how minato's moveset stacks up against BM Naruto's moveset is irrelevant as we are talking power levels and tiers.



So you think it's okay to scale all of BM Naruto's techniques to Edo Minato?
That's like saying we can scale all of EMS Sasuke's techniques to Edo Itachi, bar exclusive shit and PS. 

I've been talking power levels/portrayal the entire time, and I don't think it's acceptable to put Minato on such a pedestal for whatever reason.



> Plus, even if it was a versus thread, what can naruto's clones possibly throw that would be a legitimate threat to Minato's BM avatar?



You're right.
Naruto's Bunshin won't be able to do anything, considering Edo Minato will regenerate from any attack that isn't Onmyouton. However, it still doesn't change the fact that he's weaker and deserves a lower position on the tier list due to blatant inferiority. 



> Even if they did have something, why doesn't minato just teleport out of there instead of trying to warp the individual attacks?



...because Naruto can switch to something like Super Bijuudama and wipe Minato off the face of the map. Via feats and portrayal in Bijuu Mode, Minato hasn't shown anything capable of indefinitely breaching Itachi's Susano'o w/ legendary weapons, and I feel like it would be a good fight that can go either way.

Kishi has been trolling Minato left and right, turning his character into a laughingstock.
Does Kishi treat Itachi like that?

And I don't care if Minato was facing Juubi Jins; it doesn't matter. He had a plethora of powerful shinobi by his side, yet he still tried to advance and gets Barbie treatment. I'm doing Minato a favor by placing his character on Edo Itachi's level. At this point, we know who Kishi prefers and gives better portrayal. Itachi and Minato were always a second benchmark for the main characters, and that also gives us a general idea of where their strength lies. 

Hashirama would destroy any incarnation of Minato, so I don't know why this thread is still open.
Elia is the only person who denies this claim, but I think he's just trolling or downplaying Hashi.



> Hirashin is always an issue, even for JJs, the only time it's not is in the situation where the hirashin user is going on the offensive and trying to pull off a blitz.  Defensively, it's still a major factor even at that level.



Madara already fodderized two users of Hiraishin, so I don't think it's much of an issue for Juubi Jins. Then again, those feats can also be attributed to Hashirama's Sage Mode, which would make a lot of sense. JJ Obito had some trouble with it; that much is certain.

Not you, ueharakk... But I'm getting tired of the idiots who think Minato is going to "blitz" anything.
It's no different from saying Itachi is going to "lolgenjutsu" anyone. 
I believe the two perks act as ways to create an opening.



> This thread isn't a versus thread, it's a character portrayal thread.  Kishi doesn't portray an edo above a non edo by default if the non edo doesn't have a way to seal it.  I would agree that BM Minato is closer to edo itachi than Base Minato is to SM Hashirama.



That's why I think it's an unfair way to put the guys together.
Sealing tags aren't the best thing to use on shinobi of this caliber...
You need something akin to Shiki Fuujin or Totsuka.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (May 31, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> He is weaker then Juubito. But so is any version of Minato



Actually, BM Minato with Sage enhancement is probably on par if not stronger than INC Juubito.




> The alliance would never have been in that situation if Sage Hashirama was there helping Naruto and co as back up.



Please stop. The alliance would never have seen Sage Hashirama if it wasnt for Minato, solo.



> Minato didn't do shit on his own though. That's the point. He had BM Naruto, EMS Sasuke , Edo Tobirama, Edo Hirzuen, and various squads of the alliance helping him the entire time, and in the end he didn't contribute to Juubitos defeat in the slightest.  If you had replaced Minato with Hashirama then they would have defeated Juubito with less trouble.





Minato saved the alliance on his own and set up the Shikamaru like plan against JuubiMadara for Gai. While Sage Hashirama held of EMS Madara until EMS Madara stated he was tired of playing and broke out of everything


----------



## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Hashirama, no contest.
> 
> Even with Bijuu Mode, it takes more than half of the Kyuubi to surpass Hashirama; Madara with a complete Kyuubi couldn't do it.
> 
> ...



- you know a host is stronger than the Bijuu by itself right. 
- as Grimm explained I suppose. 
I think it's rather fanny that people right those things, so some times I just type it as they do. lol




Jagger said:


> And he also said Itachi was pretty much invencible, right?  But I'd rather leae sarcasm aside.
> 
> Kaguya's will =/= Kaguya's entire power being contained within Black Zetsu's body.
> 
> The thing is strong, however, not as strong as you're making it look. He was never hyped to the strongest, he's just an opportunist. He manipulated both Obito and Madara when they were off-guard or too weakened in order to defend themselves. Not only that, but half of Obito's body is made of Zetsu cells, which allowed BZ to control him and there's probably something that connects both him and Madara.



- he said the susanoo with the weapons. 
- Kaguya's will fodderized JJ madara. 
- Well, that's the battles for you, it's not only about raw power, is it?



King Itachi said:


> I place Edo Minato a tier below BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke; he's *around Edo Itachi's level.*



:rofl



> BM Naruto/EMS Sasuke >> Edo Minato >/= Edo Itachi > KCM Naruto >/=MS Sasuke > Living Minato >> SM Naruto > Hebi Sasuke


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (May 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - you know a host is stronger than the Bijuu by itself right.



If the host is a perfect jin sure, nothing points to an imperfect jin being stronger, in fact, its very likely the opposite.


----------



## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

Phoenix Zoro said:


> If the host is a perfect jin sure, nothing points to an imperfect jin being stronger, in fact, its very likely the opposite.



I don't see How is that relevant to what I said. But, obito, even before he controlled the Juubi
he was stated to be stronger than the Juubi when it was free.


----------



## αce (May 31, 2014)

Hashirama was the highest expression of Ashura's chakra before Naruto came along. How is this even a debate?


----------



## LostSelf (May 31, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Actually, BM Minato with Sage enhancement is probably on par if not stronger than INC Juubito.







*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

αce said:


> *Hashirama was the highest expression of Ashura's chakra* before Naruto came along. How is this even a debate?



How do you know?
and since you said that "before Naruto came along" 
could it be just because we know of the two of them? So, obviously he will be the higher after Naruto
since we don't know of anyone else. :rofl


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## αce (May 31, 2014)

I know so because he was superior to Madara, who was _indisputably_ the greatest Uchiha in history when he was alive. No one before in the history of the Uchiha had unlocked the Mangekyou before Madara (let alone the eternal mangekyou) and thus Madara was the greatest expression of Indra's chakra based simply alone on how far he was able to progress his ocular abilities. Thus, by correlation (and common sense), Hashirama_ must have_ been the greatest expression of Ashura's if he was to match that very achievement. Because Madara was so far ahead of every other Uchiha I find it hard to believe that any past Ashura reincarnation was anywhere near Hashirama's level or else he wouldn't have been rivals with past Indra incarnations. He simply would've walked on their faces, which contradicts the rivalry theme we've been exposed too.


So yes. Hashirama was the greatest expression of Ashura's chakra and was the greatest Senju in history.


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## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

αce said:


> I know so because he was superior to Madara, who was _indisputably_ the greatest Uchiha in history when he was alive. No one before in the history of the Uchiha had unlocked the Mangekyou before Madara (let alone the eternal mangekyou) and thus Madara was the greatest expression of Indra's chakra based simply alone on how far he was able to progress his ocular abilities. Thus, by correlation (and common sense), Hashirama_ must have_ been the greatest expression of Ashura's if he was to match that very achievement. Because Madara was so far ahead of every other Uchiha I find it hard to believe that any past Ashura reincarnation was anywhere near Hashirama's level or else he wouldn't have been rivals with past Indra incarnations. He simply would've walked on their faces, which contradicts the rivalry theme we've been exposed too.
> 
> 
> So yes. Hashirama was the greatest expression of Ashura's chakra and was the greatest Senju in history.



And how do you know that these two only incarnate from the uchiha and the senju clans? 
because as far as I know, Naruto for example is not senju.


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## αce (May 31, 2014)

The term Uzumaki has been used interchangeably with Senju.

Also, Obito basically called him a senju. And then implied that the senju/uchiha rivalry was in him and Sasuke.
[1] [2] [3]


"...I can tell the fire of the Senju clan dwells within you"

Zetsu referred to Nagato as a Senju

Obito told Naruto that the Senju/Uchiha rivalry lives on.
"Senju and Uchiha....Fire and Hatred....Naruto and Sasuke"





It's basically the same clan.


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## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

It does not matter, they are related to them, but they are not the same. That can be said with the uchiha as well
Kakashi linked them to the Hyūga, but they are not the same clan. 

The will of fire does not make them related, it's basically in everyone in konoha, it's a belief. The same thing happened with Shikamaru, Hiruzen and others. It does not make them related by blood. 

and what obito said is simply wrong. Since neither Minato, nor Kushina are from the Senju. So, Naruto is only
Namikaze and Uzumaki. 

In addition to that, so we do not go in a pointless debates. Being the reincarnation of Asura does not simply make someone stronger than the others. Hashirama got his ass handled to him in the first war. Both Dai and Gai are stronger than him with the 8gates, and even madara spoke of people from the past about it as well, so those are also stronger than Hashirama. The same with Hiruzen, who is not the reincarnation of anyone, also was stated to be stronger than Hashirama, even if the latter's fans do not acknowledge it. 

So, yeah, being reincarnation of Asura is not a free ticket to be the strongest. Since Naruto only became this powerful after what Hagoromo gave to him & with all the Bijuus. Hashirama is not even close to that, even though he was the reincarnation of Asura. U_U


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## αce (May 31, 2014)

Sigh. We aren't talking about who the strongest is. Go to a feats thread if you want to do that. We are talking about portrayal. I'm not going to sit here and argue with you. Naruto is a Senju. And being portrayed as superior to the strongest Indra reincarnation (with a fucking Kyuubi to boot) is more portrayal than Minato ever has had or ever will have.


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## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

> [=αce;50815710] Naruto is a Senju.



Pff, seriously do you even watch the manga? 
Do you want me to bring every scan with him saying "I'm Uzumkai Naruto" ??
Because I really do not recall him saying "I'm Senju Naruto" 

anyway, almost everyone know that the child is related to his parents' families, clan or whatever. Simply common sense. So, I won't go further than that about those basic stuff that almost everyone knows how it works.  


> And being portrayed as superior to the strongest Indra reincarnation (with a fucking Kyuubi to boot) is more portrayal than Minato ever has had or ever will have.



Naruto was portrayed to have surpassed all the Hokages, there was no specify to Hashirama. 
Not to mention, Naruto was always compared to Minato, in everything. More portrayed than Hashirama ever has had or ever will have. Yeah, Kishi compared Naruto to Minato ever since part first chapter. In term of jutsus, speed, appearance, and even some of his personality, chakra transfer, frogs contract...etc


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## Elite Uchiha (May 31, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> *Spoiler*: __



Your posts are so informative


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## Jagger (May 31, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Actually, BM Minato with Sage enhancement is probably on par if not stronger than INC Juubito.


Someone explain this to me. 

Even BSM Naruto needed the help of EMS Sasuke and the rest of the alliance to finally put Juubito down.


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## Elite Uchiha (May 31, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Someone explain this to me.
> 
> Even BSM Naruto needed the help of EMS Sasuke and the rest of the alliance to finally put Juubito down.



We are talking about different versions of Juubito.


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## Jagger (May 31, 2014)

Indeed. A Juubito with control over his own body is far stronger than the beast that was randomly trying to kill Naruto and Sasuke. However, he was less aggressive.

BM Minato's firepower isn't just enough to beat him. He might give him a few problems, but a mindless beast is hard to predict as well.


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## Veracity (May 31, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Actually, BM Minato with Sage enhancement is probably on par if not stronger than INC Juubito.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a damn lie. And you know it. Incomplete Juubitos isn't as weak as you make him seem to be. He was still able I blitz KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke nigh casually.  BM Minato would get his ass handed to him. Completle Juubito isn't any faster then Completle Juubito, he is just more conscious of his abilities. BM Minato gets his as blitzed and torn through.

Except the fact that Hashirama entered Sage mode before Minato ever saved shit with FTG . So if Hashirama never had to fight EMS Madara, then Juubito would never have been able to put the alliance in that same position...

Minato used Naruto's chakra and Naruto's idea to save the alliance the second time.  Hashirama also have Sasuke chakra which is the reason the entire world had a chance at being saved now..

Sage Hashirama defeated a Madara that would have soloed Minato himself without the use of his strongest technique.


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## Elite Uchiha (May 31, 2014)

Ugh, lets digest this post 





Likes boss said:


> That's a damn lie. And you know it. Incomplete Juubitos isn't as weak as you make him seem to be. He was still able I blitz KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke nigh casually.  BM Minato would get his ass handed to him. Completle Juubito isn't any faster then Completle Juubito, he is just more conscious of his abilities. BM Minato gets his as blitzed and torn through.



I am not claiming Inc Juubito is weak. Quite on the contrary, I'm stating he's pretty damn strong for blitzing Tobirama + Shodai. I am just arguing that BM Minato w/ Sage enhancements can potentially beat a mindless Juubito. Again, this is a subjective statement and you are entitled to your own opinion. No need to get so emotional over imaginary characters though 



> Except the fact that Hashirama entered Sage mode before Minato ever saved shit with FTG . So if Hashirama never had to fight EMS Madara, then Juubito would never have been able to put the alliance in that same position...



IIRC, Minato was the first Hokage on the scene and saved the alliance with the FTG Barrier. Minato arrived far earlier than the other Hokages, and thats why he was praised by Tobirama. To the last part, Hashirama wouldn't have helped at all, since he admitted to being inferior to INC Juubito. 



> Minato used Naruto's chakra and Naruto's idea to save the alliance the second time.  Hashirama also have Sasuke chakra which is the reason the entire world had a chance at being saved now..



Not sure the point here...but if you stating that the two strongest Hokages both saved the alliance twice, than I am ok with the parallel. 



> Sage Hashirama defeated a Madara that would have soloed Minato himself without the use of his strongest technique.



Believe what you want brah


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## LostSelf (May 31, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Your posts are so informative



Oh, i trolled because i thought you were trolling. Because not even the most rabbid Minato fan would think he is above Juubito.

But it seems you aren't, and that's sad. No Kage is above Juubito.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 31, 2014)

I'd say, if we used Biju Mode Minato, the two are near equals in terms of power. Biju Mode Naruto gets all of Naruto's Biju Mode power (DC equal, stamina equal, BM speed, strength, and durability) but it also adds Hiraishin onto it. That my friends pushes BM Minato over the edge and makes him equal to SM Hashirama in everything.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 1, 2014)

I fail to see how bm minato is equal to hashirama, hashirama beat ems madara with 100 percent kyubi. 

Minato has only 50% of kurama and hasnt shown us much since his revival.



Hashi also witness ftg first hand and can easily deal with it via clones and flower world tree, not to mention minato has no counter to bringer of darkness, and I seriously doubt he has the fire power to take on the buhddah.


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## αce (Jun 1, 2014)

> Actually, BM Minato with Sage enhancement is probably on par if not stronger than INC Juubito.



I really hope this is an elaborate troll.


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## Hasan (Jun 1, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Pff, seriously do you even watch the manga?
> Do you want me to bring every scan with him saying "I'm Uzumkai Naruto" ??
> Because I really do not recall him saying "I'm Senju Naruto"
> 
> anyway, almost everyone know that the child is related to his parents' families, clan or whatever. Simply common sense. So, I won't go further than that about those basic stuff that almost everyone knows how it works.



He just linked a scan proving that Senju and Uzumaki are one and the same lineage.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 1, 2014)

Honestly, I am going to say Minato. Lets say that he has Kurama's half for fairness, and all powers shown, and likewise for minato.
I think that with minato's speed, Hiraishin, and power gained from bijuu chakra mode, he should be able to at least lop of Hashirama's head.

This fight is not about doing an amazing amount of damage, it's about creating opportunities for attack and dismemberment. Hashirama is nice, but we haven't seen any real speed from him, if anything, it's implied that minato was far faster than he and tobirama. While minato looks like nothing but an overgrown weak naruto, we must remember, Hashirama got surpassed a couple of chapters ago, multiple times. The madara whom is in the current chapters is leagues stronger than Rin'negan madara, which was leagues stronger than Hashirama.

That was kind of the point. Madara kept trying to surpass hashirama, and thus he did.
He isn't unbeatable by a long shot. It's just that most ninja are not even touching that s-ranking. Once you are there, fights are strategy and preparedness.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Jun 1, 2014)

I don't understand why this thread is still going. There's only a couple of people who would ever argue for Minato after what we've seen in the manga from Shodai, everyone else can see the facts who has the better portrayal.


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## ARGUS (Jun 1, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> *Actually, BM Minato with Sage enhancement is probably on par if not stronger than INC Juubito.*


bama bama bama  
ck


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## Max Thunder (Jun 1, 2014)

Only people here that think Minato is even close to the power Hashirama possesses in his pinky toe are Minato/Naruto fans.

We all know who they are on this thread no need to point them out...

Anyone else who doesn't have flawed logic or questionable intelligence knows what the actual answer to OPs question is..

I don't know why some of you waste your time debating with some of these delusional fanboys.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 1, 2014)

Max Thunder said:


> Only people here that think Minato is even close to the power Hashirama possesses in his pinky toe are Minato/Naruto fans.
> 
> We all know who they are on this thread no need to point them out...
> 
> ...



Ahh, the old "I'm just going to call the opposite viewpoint stupid because I can't come back with a coherent argument" tactic.


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## Max Thunder (Jun 1, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Ahh, the old "I'm just going to call the opposite viewpoint stupid because I can't come back with a coherent argument" tactic.



It's redundant at this point, pretty sure 100% of the posters who aren't Minato/Naruto fanboys have already covered that.

Everything I said on that post is true.

>Looks at sig

Why am I not surprised you replied?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 1, 2014)

Max Thunder said:


> It's redundant at this point, pretty sure 100% of the posters who aren't Minato/Naruto fanboys have already covered that.
> 
> Everything I said on that post is true.
> 
> ...


You're not presenting any arguments. You're exaggerating Hashirama's feats, downplaying either Minato or Naruto's, or ignoring we're using _Biju Mode Minato_, which has all of Naruto's BM Firepower (greater than what Hashirama faced at the Valley of the End), Durability, Strength, and Speed _enhanced_ with the brokenness of Hiraishin.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 1, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You're not presenting any arguments. You're exaggerating Hashirama's feats, downplaying either Minato or Naruto's, or ignoring we're using _Biju Mode Minato_, which has all of Naruto's BM Firepower (greater than what Hashirama faced at the Valley of the End), Durability, Strength, and Speed _enhanced_ with the brokenness of Hiraishin.



Well said. Finally, a coherent argument. 

I'm not saying Minato has greater portrayal than Shodai, but I believe too many people (mostly Uchiha fans oddly) are trying to downplay his accomplishments.

I mean damn, he birthed a Naruto, the future strongest ninja ever after all


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## Veracity (Jun 1, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Ugh, lets digest this post
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not sure how I should reply to this considering you've presented virtually no argument other then "believe what you want to believe ." 

The only thing you've said worth mentioning is the first time Minato saved the alliance BY HIMSELF which I agree on.  The second time wasn't even a tactic formulated by him, and he couldn't have even done so without Naruto , so the credit he receives for such isn't even a lot at all.

Not to mention you originally stated that Hashirama was a non factor in the war compared to Minato when they've both contributed the same amount .

Minato;
? Saved alliance from Juubi bomb
? Saved alliance from quadruple Juubi bomb( with help)
Hashirama;
? Held back Madara who would have raped the alliance with Juubito
? bestowed sage chakra on to Sasuke( helped basically)

BAM. 2 times each Shinobi helped the alliance in 2 clear ways making their relevance about equal .

Then you said Hashirama lost credit because "he " was one paneled by incomplete Juubito and admired inferiority to Juubito when in reality his weakened clone was blitzed( while unaware of speed increase) and Minato himself in anyform is weaker then any Juubi Jin possible.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 1, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Then you said Hashirama lost credit because "he " was one paneled by incomplete Juubito and admired inferiority to Juubito when in reality his weakened clone was blitzed( while unaware of speed increase) and Minato himself in anyform is weaker then any Juubi Jin possible.


...you honestly are going to claim Hashirama is stronger than even the V1 Juubito, discounting the clone flat out admitting inferiority?


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## Veracity (Jun 1, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...you honestly are going to claim Hashirama is stronger than even the V1 Juubito, discounting the clone flat out admitting inferiority?



Where the hell did you see me say that anywhere? The fact that you literally just assumed that is hilarious.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 1, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Where the hell did you see me say that anywhere? The fact that you literally just assumed that is hilarious.


Since you kind of alluded to saying that the clone admitted inferiority, not Hashirama himself.


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## Veracity (Jun 1, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since you kind of alluded to saying that the clone admitted inferiority, not Hashirama himself.



Not at all. Elite Uchiha is claiming that Hashirama loses credit because he was one paneled by mindless Juubito. I corrected him saying that his clone, while unaware of the speed increase, was blitzed  by Juubito which is an 
evident difference. 

I know Hashirama inferior to mindless Juubito. But so is BM Minato, BM Naruto, EMS Sasuke , Edo Madara, etc so it doesn't hold any merit.


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