# *SPOILERS 689* Edo Minato vs Current Kakashi



## RedChidori (Aug 21, 2014)

The title says it all .



VS



*Can the Yellow Flash still counter Kamui? YOU DECIDE!!!*


Location: Desert Dimension
State of Mind: IC, intend to kill
Starting Distance: 39.5 feet away
Knowledge: Minato knows about Kamui due to prior encounters, Kakashi knows about Hiraishin due to prior encounters.
Restrictions: None
Additional Info: Kakashi starts off with both MS activated. Minato starts off in SM, he has both arms. He can access Bijuu Mode at will if needed. Kakashi will use Perfect Susano'o at will if needed. Kakashi has Sealing Tags. Minato has access to Boss Summons, and presumably, Ma & Pa and can use Frog Song. 

Please provide a legitimate reason why either combatant wins, loses, or stalemates.

*READY?! FIGHT   !!!!!!* *-RedChidori*


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## Csdabest (Aug 21, 2014)

Ma & Pa Frog Song are Minato's best bet. But then It might not effect Kakashi's Phasing jutsu. Since Kabuto confirmed that he was able to resist sound waves by liquifying his body. So Phasing might provide a similar relief to Sound Genjutsu. But we might as well Cut out PS and Kyuubi wince im pretty sure that Since Sasuke Complete Legged Susano-o was as big as Minato and Naruto and PS shits on that. I would Say that Kyuubi would get fucked up by PS. But besides that.

The Core fight between Minato and Kakashi is not a very favorable one for Minato. He Struggled against a 13 Year old Obito with Half of Kamui and Phasing. No way is Minato going toe to toe with a War Vet Like Kakashi with Full kamui. The whole issue between Obito and Minato was having to see who can touch who first. Kakashi doesnt have to worry about that with Kamui Sniping which has shown to catch Bijuu mode Naruto which was clocked in at Speeds relative to Minato level when Kakashi mistaken Naruto for Minato on several occassions.

Kakashi and Minato have both shown the same level of Combat Prowess, Genius Level intellect, and tactical expertise. What this boils down to literally is a mirror match between two people who have different level S/T techniques which are the core of their fighting styles. And Minato openly admitted that Half of Kamui was superior to His and 2nd S/T capabilities without even seeing Kakashi's Kamui snipe. 

This is literally a Kamui GG w/ Mid-high Difficulty


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## Mercurial (Aug 21, 2014)

Lol, Kakashi definitely stomps. He speedblitzed Kaguya with Kamui Raikiri thanks to intangibility surprise effect and Rikudo enhanced speed. He can spam Kamui Shuriken to warp away all tagged kunai and pressure Minato with his Perfect Susanoo. He can also use Kamui teleporting at double warping speed having control of both eyes... he can pretty much Kamui GG Minato anytime he wants, as Minato could barely avoid Obito's Kamui, who is less fast than Kakashi's normal version, let alone than double Mangekyo Sharingan Kakashi's who has a new astonishing feat in the latest chapter.

Kakashi's also portrayed as far stronger, with these powers he is able to hold on his own pretty well against Kaguya, the strongest being in the Naruto world. Minato is very strong, especially with Bijuu Mode, but 'nuff said.


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## Lurko (Aug 21, 2014)

Kakashi stomps hard.


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## The Faceless Man (Aug 21, 2014)

Minato cant do shit against Kakashi now...
But how will Kakashi do damage to Minato... if the guy keeps using FTG to dodge...

I think its a tie.


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## Prinz Porno (Aug 21, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Lol, Kakashi definitely stomps. He speedblitzed Kaguya with Kamui Raikiri thanks to intangibility surprise effect and Rikudo enhanced speed. He can spam Kamui Shuriken to warp away all tagged kunai and pressure Minato with his Perfect Susanoo. He can also use Kamui teleporting at double warping speed having control of both eyes... he can pretty much Kamui GG Minato anytime he wants, as Minato could barely avoid Obito's Kamui, who is less fast than Kakashi's normal version, let alone than double Mangekyo Sharingan Kakashi's who has a new astonishing feat in the latest chapter.
> 
> Kakashi's also portrayed as far stronger, with these powers he is able to hold on his own pretty well against Kaguya, the strongest being in the Naruto world. Minato is very strong, especially with Bijuu Mode, but 'nuff said.



This is what i dont understand, like you said, Kakashi is fighting against the strongest being in the verse and he is doing really well not only that, he already blitzed Kaguya!! that feat alone would put Kakashi above nearly anyone ecept maybe the jinjurikis. Dont get me wrong Edo Minato is strong but at this point Kakashi is way to hax to lose against him.

Kakashi wins low-mid dif.


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## Kyu (Aug 21, 2014)

It'll take Kakashi a long ass time to tag his teacher who has a _Flash Shunshin_ many times beyond what Naruto was capable of in Biju Mode. Lets not forget Minato can sense the chakra building up in Kakashi's eye to avoid Kamui snipes via FTG.

Kakashi can win so long as he holds up stamina-wise.


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## Rocky (Aug 22, 2014)

I think Kakashi has god mode powers like Nardo & Sauce now, so he really should be the victor here even if Minato is a horrible match up for him.​


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## iJutsu (Aug 22, 2014)

Naw. I'd say it would be Minato vs Tobi all over again.


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## Ghost (Aug 22, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> Naw. I'd say it would be Minato vs Tobi all over again.



Except "Tobi" has better boosts in here.


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## Csdabest (Aug 22, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> Naw. I'd say it would be Minato vs Tobi all over again.



Except Minato is not fighting a 13 year old boy with half Mangekyo powers.....


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## Garcher (Aug 22, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Kakashi can win so long as he holds up stamina-wise.



Stamina? That's no issue anymore in this manga


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## Mercurial (Aug 22, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> Naw. I'd say it would be Minato vs Tobi all over again.



Except for the fact that: 

- "Tobi" would have the full extent of Kamui powers (Kamui space-time barrier which is faster and a lot more unpredictable than Kamui suck-on-touch than Minato barely evaded with Hiraishin, actually is even faster than Kaguya's S/T that blitzed Yin Rinnegan Sasuke, then Kamui teleporting at maximized speed, Kamui phasing, all can be used in combo)
- "Tobi" is not a 15 yrs old inexperienced boy but a 30 yrs old experienced ninja fighter who is top notch in everything and probably the smartest shinobi you can face in a battle
- "Tobi" has a Rikudo empowered Perfect Susanoo that can spam Kamui Shuriken
- "Tobi" is empowered with Rikudo chakra who boosts his dojutsu abilities, his physical abilities (to the point that with his speed he can blitz fucking Kaguya... Minato was blitzed by Juubito and Juudara... LoL) and his jutsu

Yeah... it would end the same. More or less


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 22, 2014)

Kakashi with 2 eyes > SM Minato

Kakashi with PS >> BM Minato

Kakashi is a rikodou now, he wins convincingly.


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## Santoryu (Aug 22, 2014)

And except Minato is up against the best in-battle tactician in the entire series. The Yellow-flash is a great combatant, but he is really outclassed here.


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## Euraj (Aug 22, 2014)

I can't think of how they would hit each other. I mean, Minato avoided A's fist after noticing him only an inch from his face. With Sage Mode or Bijuu Mode activated, Kakashi's chances of landing a hit without being detected is about as good as Minato tagging him with Hiraishin. Cat and mouse until one of them burns out.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 22, 2014)

Euraj said:


> I can't think of how they would hit each other. I mean, Minato avoided A's fist after noticing him only an inch from his face. With Sage Mode or Bijuu Mode activated, Kakashi's chances of landing a hit without being detected is about as good as Minato tagging him with Hiraishin. Cat and mouse until one of them burns out.



Kakashi can keep tabs on Minato by watching his kunais, warp them in mid way or just destroy them with Susano'o. The Hirashin game won't work on Kakashi, especially with doubled warping speed.
If Minato activates BM, Kakashi activates PS and spams Kamui shurikens, ending Minato quickly.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 22, 2014)

Kakashi would win, he's absolutely outclassed everyone so far. I mean Naruto and Sasuke are the only ones who can even compete with him. Neither Kaguya or Zetsu expected what Kakashi did after they launched their fastest bone attack. 

Kakashi's Susano'o is probably the most broken Susano'o technique there is.


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## Euraj (Aug 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kakashi can keep tabs on Minato by watching his kunais, warp them in mid way or just destroy them with Susano'o. The Hirashin game won't work on Kakashi, especially with doubled warping speed.
> If Minato activates BM, Kakashi activates PS and spams Kamui shurikens, ending Minato quickly.


Or, Minato just moves out of the way with Hiraishin. Keep in mind that in order for Kakashi to Kamui away all of Minato's kunai, he has to be solid which could leave him open to being blitzed by one of the quickest guys in the universe.


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## Kai (Aug 22, 2014)

There's a laughable history of debating in favor of Hiraishin over Kamui.

They (advocates and tards) said Hiraishin > Kamui proven in canon. In fact it was only a singular eye that was in competition.
They (tards) said Hiraishin > double Kamui and it doesn't make a difference when it was outright stated two Kamui doubles the speed of warping.

Now we learn Obito's eyes are strengthened even further because of his prior Six Paths chakra. Are these same guys going to continue with their empty stances?


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## iJutsu (Aug 22, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Except for the fact that:
> 
> - "Tobi" would have the full extent of Kamui powers (Kamui space-time barrier which is faster and a lot more unpredictable than Kamui suck-on-touch than Minato barely evaded with Hiraishin, actually is even faster than Kaguya's S/T that blitzed Yin Rinnegan Sasuke, then Kamui teleporting at maximized speed, Kamui phasing, all can be used in combo)
> - "Tobi" is not a 15 yrs old inexperienced boy but a 30 yrs old experienced ninja fighter who is top notch in everything and probably the smartest shinobi you can face in a battle
> ...



-snip-Kakashi isn't touching a sage bijuu mode Minato ever. Minato can effortlessly drill Kakashi in the back with rasengan. Kakashi would run out of chakra before Kyuubi ever does.

Kakashi never blitzed Kaguya. She casually attacked him with bones while focusing on Naruto and his clone. The only thing he did was surprise her by phasing through her attack. She also had no knowledge of any of his abilities, unlike here where Minato does.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 22, 2014)

Euraj said:


> Or, Minato just moves out of the way with Hiraishin. Keep in mind that in order for Kakashi to Kamui away all of Minato's kunai, he has to be solid which could leave him open to being blitzed by one of the quickest guys in the universe.



That'd assume Minato having a tag on Kakashi which I don't see happening in between phasing and PS. Hell even with a tag, I don't see Minato blitzing Kakashi anymore.
And Kakashi has full knowledge here. Nah, he isn't falling for that shit. 

Obito vs Minato was close, Kakashi is better than Obito in all aspects now, including Kamui.


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## Pokkle (Aug 22, 2014)

Kamui is faster with two eyes.


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## t0xeus (Aug 22, 2014)

Pokkle said:


> Kamui is faster with two eyes.



It is faster only if there are 2 wielders next to each other, since you can't use left eye's power on yourself.


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## Mercurial (Aug 22, 2014)

Euraj said:


> I can't think of how they would hit each other. I mean, Minato avoided A's fist after noticing him only an inch from his face. With Sage Mode or Bijuu Mode activated, Kakashi's chances of landing a hit without being detected is about as good as Minato tagging him with Hiraishin. Cat and mouse until one of them burns out.



Yeah, very good for Minato. And he was blitzed by Juubito and Juudara, people far weaker in comparison to Kaguya. Kakashi blitzed Kaguya with Kamui Raikiri and warped her bone projectile + S/T portal, the same S/T that blitzed Yin Rinnegan Sasuke. I wonder who's better.



iJutsu said:


> Don't be a retard. Kakashi isn't touching a sage bijuu mode Minato ever. Minato can effortlessly drill Kakashi in the back with rasengan. Kakashi would run out of chakra before Kyuubi ever does.
> 
> Kakashi never blitzed Kaguya. She casually attacked him with bones while focusing on Naruto and his clone. The only thing he did was surprise her by phasing through her attack. She also had no knowledge of any of his abilities, unlike here where Minato does.



So your counter to manga feats is "it's not because I say it doesn't". Very good. Ask yourself why 95% of people think that Kakashi rapes.


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## Euraj (Aug 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That'd assume Minato having a tag on Kakashi which I don't see happening in between phasing and PS. Hell even with a tag, I don't see Minato blitzing Kakashi anymore.
> And Kakashi has full knowledge here. Nah, he isn't falling for that shit.
> 
> Obito vs Minato was close, Kakashi is better than Obito in all aspects now, including Kamui.


Obito vs. Minato wasn't close. If it wasn't for the Nine-Tails, Minato would have walked away from that fight without even having to clean his coat. I'll be generous in saying though that due to the nature of their abilities, big scars wasn't in the cards, but regardless, the fight was quick and Obito was clearly crushed. 

This is a new Minato that has speed boosted into outer space. Notwithstanding that, I don't see Minato tagging Kakashi, which is why I said it would be cat and mouse until one of them burned out. Though, I'm surprised that I even need to say that if Minato got a seal on Kakashi, he'd be dead.



			
				Raikiri19 said:
			
		

> Yeah, very good for Minato. And he was blitzed by Juubito and Juudara, people far weaker in comparison to Kaguya. Kakashi blitzed Kaguya with Kamui Raikiri and warped her bone projectile + S/T portal, the same S/T that blitzed Yin Rinnegan Sasuke. I wonder who's better.


I'm wondering if I should even respond to you since you're clearly Kakashi biased and you're totally missing the context of what happened. Minato went head-to-head with Uchiha as the full-powered Juubi Jinchuuriki and lost. Two people that already knew his abilities. As for Kakashi and Kaguya, go read the chapter again. One, Kakashi didn't run her over. If it wasn't for Kamui, he would have been hit first in spite of having something massive like Perfect Susanoo (hence him thinking to himself "she's fast"). In addition, she clearly didn't know his abilities, or else how do you explain the exclamation at him phasing through her attack. Minato knows his ability in this scenario, and if Kaguya knew his abilities there, she would have acted differently.

Not even mentioning the fact that she was being charged by four people (not counting Naruto's cloud of clones) at the same time.


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## Mercurial (Aug 22, 2014)

Euraj said:


> I'm wondering if I should even respond to you since you're clearly Kakashi biased and you're totally missing the context of what happened. Minato went head-to-head with Uchiha as the full-powered Juubi Jinchuuriki and lost. Two people that already knew his abilities. As for Kakashi and Kaguya, go read the chapter again. One, Kakashi didn't run her over. If it wasn't for Kamui, he would have been hit first in spite of having something massive like Perfect Susanoo (hence him thinking to himself "she's fast"). In addition, she clearly didn't know his abilities, or else how do you explain the exclamation at him phasing through her attack. Minato knows his ability in this scenario, and if Kaguya knew his abilities there, she would have acted differently.
> 
> Not even mentioning the fact that she was being charged by four people (not counting Naruto's cloud of clones) at the same time.


I couldn't care less if you think I'm biased or not, I can think that you are biased against Kakashi and against the actual fucking logic, if we want to play with words.

Knowing abilities doesn't mean you can't counter them. Shikamaru, one of the smartest people in the Narutoverse, could know everything about Edo Madara and still be foddered in a second at best.

"If it wasn't for Kamui" doesn't mean anything. Minato wouldn't have defeated Obito if it wasn't for Hiraishin, Obito wouldn't have challenged Minato if it wasn't for Kamui, and so on. It means nothing. People have abilities, people have jutsu, people use them the best they can.

Oh well, so the strongest character in Narutoverse (and by far) doesn't know every jutsu of his opponents, what a poor one... LoL, come on. Try better. Kaguya could have been surprised when Kakashi dodged her bone projectile with Kamui phasing, but then he blitzed her with a frontal attack with Kamui intangibility + Raikiri piercing power + Rikudo chakra that enhanced his speed and his Raikiri. Kaguya could have simply dodged it if she was able to. She didn't. And she has far, far, far better reflexes than Minato.

Not at all. Kakashi charged Kaguya alone, Naruto and Sasuke + Naruto clones were behind him and Sakura was in Kakashi's PS. Also Kaguya was fending Naruto and Sasuke for chapters, so saying that numbers made Kakashi doing what he did is just trying to downplay his feat.


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## ShinobisWill (Aug 22, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> Don't be a retard. Kakashi isn't touching a sage bijuu mode Minato ever. Minato can effortlessly drill Kakashi in the back with rasengan. Kakashi would run out of chakra before Kyuubi ever does.
> 
> Kakashi never blitzed Kaguya. She casually attacked him with bones while focusing on Naruto and his clone. The only thing he did was surprise her by phasing through her attack. She also had no knowledge of any of his abilities, unlike here where Minato does.



Are you kidding? 

Do you even remember the order of events? Kaguya wasn't focused on Naruto and his clone while Kakashi was attacking her, she was looking at Kakashi, throwing bones at Kakashi and reacting to Kakashi phasing through it in shock. Naruto and his clone didn't even show up until after Kakashi hit her. 

 Kaguya showed no reaction, counter attack or defense to Kakashi's Kamui Raikiri. Re-read the chapter, it was clearly a blitz and she wasn't in the middle of anything as Kakashi was striking her - Other than being in pain. No bones, no attacks, just blood. The Kamui Raikiri only made him go through her, allowing Kakashi to keep away from Kaguya after hitting her and potentially not get counter-attacked, but Kaguya didn't even have time to initiate one in the first place.

It's an absolute joke to argue or deny Kakashi didn't blitz her. She did absolutely nothing while she was getting hit - His Kamui made him go through her as he hit her shoulder, that's it. She didn't showcase any attack that Kakashi had to "phase through", all he phased through was her body. She had ample time to move or dodge after throwing the bone as well, but she was completely unable to..and showed no attack either, all the while we see Kakashi speeding through her with a black line *instantly* through her shoulder/arm. That equates to a blitz.



t0xeus said:


> It is faster only if there are 2 wielders next to each other, since you can't use left eye's power on yourself.



No. Kakashi needed to look at Obito only because his eye wasn't in Obito's body. The eye can be used on yourself and in cooperation with eachother when in the same body, doubling the speed. Obito opened a hole in Kaguya's dimension with both eyes (which was also the long-range Kamui).

Double Kamui has already been confirmed, and it obviously works together to increase the speed. We have enough proof so I don't see why it's being questioned anymore.


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## Kai (Aug 22, 2014)

t0xeus said:


> It is faster only if there are 2 wielders next to each other, since you can't use left eye's power on yourself.


The power of double Kamui used on oneself (and bringing others along):


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## Killacale85 (Aug 22, 2014)

I don't see kakashi landing a hit on minato with either sage mode or bijuu mode sensing since he's already a sensor his sensing will be off the charts! BUT kakashi phasing ability will probably make it come down to who can last longer and seeing as how minato has kurama I'm going with him. Remember we haven't seen how long Akashi can keep this up. Only been 2 chapters


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## Mercurial (Aug 22, 2014)

Some seconds are more than enough, Lol.


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## Killacale85 (Aug 22, 2014)

yea sure  mere seconds is enuff........for minato that is


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## Hachibi (Aug 22, 2014)

Killacale85 said:


> I don't see kakashi landing a hit on minato with either sage mode or bijuu mode sensing since he's already a sensor his sensing will be off the charts! BUT kakashi phasing ability will probably make it come down to who can last longer and seeing as how minato has kurama I'm going with him. Remember we haven't seen how long Akashi can keep this up. Only been 2 chapters



Considering Kakashi blitzed Kaguya, someone with _far_ better reflex than Minato, Minato die


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## Mercurial (Aug 22, 2014)

Killacale85 said:


> yea sure  mere seconds is enuff........for minato that is



Yes, to die. Kamui GG. Kamui Raikiri. Take your pick, don't be shy


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## Ruse (Aug 22, 2014)

Kakashi would destroy Minato now,  C'mon now only those in denial are trying to state otherwise.


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## Killacale85 (Aug 22, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Considering Kakashi blitzed Kaguya, someone with _far_ better reflex than Minato, Minato die



What reflex  feat has kaguya showed? Besides twitching her eye to switch dimensions. Oh u must be talking about when she got blitzed by Sakura this past chapter despite having the byakugan? And she is supposed to be a God lol kaguya is a joke and u know it. Please don't mention her lol


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## Narutossss (Aug 22, 2014)

.............. aside from dodging every single one of sasuke's attacks casually, y'know the same ones that worked on madara, the same madara that solo'd edo minato.............. just saying.

her reflexes are far beyond minato lol and sakura blitz kaguya??


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## Killacale85 (Aug 22, 2014)

Ok maybe "blitzed" was not the right term for wat Sakura did  lol but sauske has been attacking kaguya in PS which he never used on madara. Also when sauske did use his rinnegan on kaguya the only thing she was able to do was switch dimensions to avoid being sealed. Madara has no such ability to avoid that combo attack. Well besides swapping with limbo to escape.


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## Jagger (Aug 22, 2014)

I still don't understand how can Kakashi literally gain the Rikkudo power when it's impossible for him.


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## ARGUS (Aug 23, 2014)

Kakashi wrecks him

--Kamui shuriken completely troll on Minatos TBB and send them to  kamui

--Kamui raikiri which landed a blow on Kaguya can also be used and is definitely landing a hit on Minato

--Kakashis PS also has the mobility to evade some of Minatos TBB, and can then use its slashes to attack minato effectively

--the onslaught between PS and Kyuubi would completely eradicate all the surrounding markings therefore bypassing the AOE of FTG, as even if minato manages to break kakashis PS, the latter can still use his kamui raikiri to finish him off


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## Ether (Aug 23, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Kakashi wrecks him
> 
> --Kamui shuriken completely troll on Minatos TBB and send them to  kamui
> 
> ...



This is a good answer.

Also it's only been two chapters since Kakashi got this powerup so there's even more to show I'm sure.


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## Trojan (Aug 23, 2014)

Minato destroys him. 

Kakashi's Kamui is useless against Minato's speed. We have seen base Minato being faster than 8th gate Guy, and it does not matter if the Kamui is with double the speed, unless it freezes the time it's not getting any faster. 

and Kakashi's Kamui shurkin can be avoided vis shunshin, FTG, or redirected with S/T barrier at Kakashi... 
Kakashi also as shown in the manga cannot make his PS phase through things, so he can't just make the PS avoid Minato's jutsus

and no, his shurkins will NOT teleport the entire thing like the TBB, otherwise he would have done that to the Gedu-dama. In addition, when it landed against the Rabbi's tails, it just teleported what they hit, not the entire thing...

and with Minato having far superior chakra, that won't make it any easier for Kakashi either. U_U

Minato wins mid-high difficult.



> =ARGUS;51539798]Kakashi wrecks him


yeah, no.



> --Kamui shuriken completely troll on Minatos TBB and send them to  kamui


B*.
Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot
They can't teleport the whole thing.

+
Minato's Barrier completely troll Kakashi's Kamui shuriken


> --Kamui raikiri which landed a blow on Kaguya can also be used and is definitely landing a hit on Minato


Except Minato knows about Kamui's ability unlike Kaguya. 


> --Kakashis PS also has the mobility to evade some of Minatos TBB, and can then use its slashes to attack minato effectively



which slashes?  
and has Kakashi's PS shown any speed feats faster than instant?  


> --the onslaught between PS and Kyuubi would completely eradicate all the surrounding markings
> therefore bypassing the AOE of FTG,


*S
the marking were all around the place even after fighting JJ Obito, JJ Madara, the Tree, and Madara Vs Hashirama. 


> as even if minato manages to break kakashis PS, the latter can still use his kamui raikiri to finish him off


Or Minato can use his FTG Rasengan to finish him off as he did to obito. 

In addition to the fact that this is Edo Minato, even IF Kakashi landed his attack, Minato will just regenerate.



Narutossss said:


> .............. aside from dodging every single one of sasuke's attacks casually, y'know the same ones that worked on madara, the same madara that solo'd edo minato.............. just saying.
> 
> her reflexes are far beyond minato lol and sakura blitz kaguya??



Strange, did not Madara solo'd Kakashi? Just saying. 
Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot

- oh did not Minato dodge Guy's in his 5th step? The same one fodderstompped Madara? 



Kai said:


> There's a laughable history of debating in favor of Hiraishin over Kamui.
> 
> They (advocates and tards) said Hiraishin > Kamui proven in canon. In fact it was only a singular eye that was in competition.
> They (tards) said Hiraishin > double Kamui and it doesn't make a difference when it was outright stated two Kamui doubles the speed of warping.
> ...



me. 

So, Kai,
can you put the manga scan for Kamui freezing the time or being stated that it's faster than instant? 



> it was outright stated two Kamui doubles the speed of warping.


and double the speed makes it faster than instant? How?  

so if Sakura in the next chapter had her speed doubled, and kishi stated that she's twice as fast
that would mean she is faster than the FTG?  :rofl


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## ShinobisWill (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Minato destroys him.
> 
> Kakashi's Kamui is useless against Minato's speed. We have seen base Minato being faster than 8th gate Guy, and it does not matter if the Kamui is with double the speed, unless it freezes the time it's not getting any faster.
> 
> ...



Minato's "instant" FTG was beaten/outsped by Madara's non-instant counter attack, and outperformed by Gai's 7th gate reactions 

Whatever you consider "instant" from Minato has already been beaten in speed long ago.


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

ShinobisWill said:


> Minato's "instant" FTG was beaten/outsped by Madara's non-instant counter attack, and outperformed by Gai's 7th gate reactions
> 
> Whatever you consider "instant" from Minato has already been beaten in speed long ago.



- That was Minato's reaction and not FTG in itself. 
and that was not Minato with KCM either.

FTG outperformed Guy's 8th Gate.  
Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot
Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot

- Whatever you consider Kamui, has already been beaten more than 5 years ago. 

and you clearly can't/don't comprehend the difference between FTG's speed, and the user's reaction and think they are the same thing.


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## ShinobisWill (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - That was Minato's reaction and now FTG in itself.
> and that was not Minato with KCM either.
> 
> FTG out formed Guy's 8th Gate.
> ...



I was already talking about reaction times.  And where are the feats that prove KCM Minato has higher reaction time than base Minato, for the record?

FTG is only as instant as Minato's reaction time is. If he can't react quickly enough, then he loses to said things he can't react to. 

Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot
Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot

And his reaction time is not faster than/too high for either of these feats, because his reaction time is not above Kaguya's.

Not to mention, Kakashi's Kamui gets a similar speed/reaction feat in the same exact chapter.

Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot
Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot


----------



## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

ShinobisWill said:


> I was already talking about reaction times.
> 
> FTG is only as instant as Minato's reaction time is. If he can't react quickly enough, then he loses to said things he can't react to.
> 
> ...



- Minato's reaction time was fast enough to dodge Guy's 8th gate in its 5th step. 

- lol, nonsense. Even Minato's striking is faster than Kakashi's. 

Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot
1- Kakashi uses his Kamui
2- Minato threw a Kunai
3- Minato entered SM
4- Minato teleported

and Kamui did not even take effect yet. :rofl


----------



## ShinobisWill (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - Minato's reaction time was fast enough to dodge Guy's 8th gate in its 5th step.
> 
> - lol, nonsense. Even Minato's striking is faster than Kakashi's.
> 
> ...



"Not to mention, Kakashi's Kamui gets a similar speed/reaction feat in the same exact chapter."

Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot
Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot 



And implying that _that _Kakashi = Current Kakashi? ( even if we forget about what I just linked you?  )


----------



## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

ShinobisWill said:


> "Not to mention, Kakashi's Kamui gets a similar speed/reaction feat in the same exact chapter."
> 
> Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot
> Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot
> ...



- 
are you quoting something or replying or what, I'm confused.  

and I don't know what the heck do those links prove exactly! 

- lol
That Kakashi used ONE MS to use Kamui
and current kakashi used the same ONE eye,

not to mention it's laguable enough that you said that Kakashi = current Kakashi in a repudiation way

and does your highness think base Minato = BM Minato? 
because in that link it was base Minato who threw the Kunai faster than Kakashi can activate his Kamui as well, and he's slower than himself
with BM. lol

Edit:

For Kakashi and Gaara's sand
Sakura arrives at Naruto + Sasuke's position before they can manage to move more than a foot

it's still all Minato.


----------



## ShinobisWill (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> -
> are you quoting something or replying or what, I'm confused.
> 
> and I don't know what the heck do those links prove exactly!
> ...



I'm quoting myself from my previous post.

The links show how fast Kakashi Kamui'd Madara's black shit before Gai even reached Madara. In 8th Gate.  In the same chapter that Minato warped away before Gai reached Madara, and the speed doesn't appear different.

Current Kakashi has both eyes + Rikudou chakra that confirmed his eyes were "stronger". Showing the focus on one eye doesn't mean it isn't using double kamui, and either way, Kakashi's eyes are stronger and he has more chakra/Rikudou chakra. The feat is an unbelievable speed either way. 

Where is proof that KCM increases reaction time? There's proof that double kamui is faster, and proof that Kakashi's eyes are stronger with rikudou chakra.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

ShinobisWill said:


> I'm quoting myself from my previous post.
> 
> The links show how fast Kakashi Kamui'd Madara's black shit before Gai even reached Madara. In 8th Gate.  In the same chapter that Minato warped away before Gai reached Madara, and the speed doesn't appear different.
> 
> ...



- I see, sorry did not notice that you edited your previous post. @.@
- yeah, but Minato was the one to teleport them there + we have already seen that Minato teleportation is faster than Kakashi's (as proven in previous post when he the Kunai) So, it's still does not mean any thing for Kakashi.

- Having both eyes still does not make his warping instant. 

here for example
Link removed
Link removed

Obito was trying to warp himself, and obviously he couldn't because Madara's jutsu is faster than his
Link removed
here they needed both eyes together to finally make Obito able to teleport. Minato himself accomplished that even in base, so this double Kamui things does not prove anything for Kakashi to be superior as it's nothing Minato could't do.  

- lol, did you seriously ask if the KCM increases that. 
you might as well go and see Naruto Vs the Raikage, Naruto Vs Kisame, BM Naruto Vs the Bijuus...etc


----------



## kakashibeast (Aug 24, 2014)

*MINATO GETS DESTROYED*


----------



## Mercurial (Aug 24, 2014)

No one believes in what Hussain writes, except for Hussain himself.


----------



## Jad (Aug 24, 2014)

You know one of these days (maybe soon) I'm just going to sit down and type up an entire thread about Gai's reflexes, speed, durability, resiliency, and strength just to get it out there in the open. Because I am just seeing some things that I disagree with (silly points) and things that I agree with by multiple users that have changed my perception. Not going to bother with writing about Gai's Taijutsu, everyone and their mother knows Gai has that under wraps. But people have to know, with great Taijutsu skill, comes with high reflexes, and hand and foot speed, which people seem to neglect but don't understand the meaning of what really is Taijutsu. By the way, I targeted this thread because I can see people talking about Gai. I'm gonna make sure this thread is really well written as well, no smarky comments or anything like that.​


----------



## The Faceless Man (Aug 24, 2014)

I understand that Minato cant hit Kakashi... but how would kakashi hit Minato if he keeps dodgeing with FTG ?
I dont get it ...

Kakashi would have to wait for an opening... and i doubt Minato would be that stupid....

Its kind of a tie since Kakashi cant have the speed.
Madara reacted to FTG cuz Minato attack him with that... would Minato attack Kakahsi that way knowing the Kamui powers ???


----------



## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> No one believes in what Hussain writes, except for Hussain himself.



Talking the guy who putted zero proof, except for a retarded reason "Kakashi is my favourite then he wins, fuck the manga"  

Com'n now, you can do better, what the proofs you putted in the last 3 pages? 
at least I putted my proofs to why I believe in what I believe. 



The Faceless Man said:


> I understand that Minato cant hit Kakashi... but how would kakashi hit Minato if he keeps dodgeing with FTG ?
> I dont get it ...
> 
> Kakashi would have to wait for an opening... and i doubt Minato would be that stupid....
> ...




Just in case you forgot, Minato did fight the same power (Kamui), and he made Obito kiss the floor in less than 1 minute.


----------



## Ghost (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Talking the guy who put zero proof, except for a retarded reason "Kakashi my favourite then he wins, fuck the manga"


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Talking the guy who put zero proof, except for a retarded reason "Kakashi is my favourite then he wins, fuck the manga"





OT: This image sum it quite nicely:


----------



## RedChidori (Aug 24, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> OT: This image sum it quite nicely:



Irony was fucking perfect XD .


----------



## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> OT: This image sum it quite nicely:





again, I put my reasons from the manga and why I believe something, he putted nothing. 
I don't give a rat's ass if you think the way I understand the manga is wrong or the manga scans mean something else than what I understood, I don't give a single flying fuck about that. 

but that's still better than some nonsense like this



Raikiri19 said:


> Lol, Kakashi definitely stomps. He speedblitzed Kaguya with Kamui Raikiri thanks to intangibility surprise effect and Rikudo enhanced speed. He can spam Kamui Shuriken to warp away all tagged kunai and pressure Minato with his Perfect Susanoo. He can also use Kamui teleporting at double warping speed having control of both eyes... he can pretty much Kamui GG Minato anytime he wants, as Minato could barely avoid Obito's Kamui, who is less fast than Kakashi's normal version, let alone than double Mangekyo Sharingan Kakashi's who has a new astonishing feat in the latest chapter.
> 
> Kakashi's also portrayed as far stronger, with these powers he is able to hold on his own pretty well against Kaguya, the strongest being in the Naruto world. Minato is very strong, especially with Bijuu Mode, but 'nuff said.




Look, it's full with absolute *S.  
let's start with breaking things down

1- 


> He speedblitzed Kaguya with Kamui Raikiri thanks to intangibility surprise effect and Rikudo enhanced speed.



He said it himself "surprise". That's not different than Naruto using his sexy jutsu to surprise her
then attack her. The thing is, Minato knows about this ability and he already defeated it as well, so
obviously he won't be surprised from that as he already knows about it unlike Kaguya. 

2-


> He can spam Kamui Shuriken to warp away all tagged kunai and pressure Minato with his Perfect Susanoo



Spamming argument has ALWAYS been a s-----y argument, it's the same n-------e like "Amatersu's spam" that solos the whole universe, when such a thing never acquires in the manga, or else why did not spam that against Kaguya then?  

Then, we can say Minato will spam clones, and they sill spam S/T barriers and retuern everything to Kakashi's face. :rofl 

then he went on with more n-------e spamming the shit of that baseless argument of his lol.



> he can pretty much Kamui GG Minato anytime he wants, as Minato could barely avoid Obito's Kamui, who is less fast than Kakashi's normal version,



1- Saying he could barely avoid Obito's Kamui, when all of that happened behind Minato's back and when he was busy dealing with Kurama, and yet he did it even though it's the first time for him with the jutsu.

2- Saying that is less fast than Kakashi's normal vision, when even Minato's physical speed in base is faster than Kakashi's. 
Markings fade away after Sasuke punches Naruto

Not to mention forgetting that Minato has clones and can switch with them whenever he wants. :rofl 




> Kakashi's also portrayed as far stronger, with these powers he is able to hold on his own pretty well against Kaguya, the strongest being in the Naruto world. Minato is very strong, especially with Bijuu Mode, but 'nuff said.



Which portrayal?  
hold his own with an entire team along side him? Yeah that surely makes sense. 
I guess Sakura held her own as well. lol


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> again, I put my reasons from the manga and why I believe something, he putted nothing.
> I don't give a rat's ass if you think the way I understand the manga is wrong or the manga scans mean something else than what I understood, I don't give a single flying fuck about that.
> 
> but that's still better than some nonsense like this



Except that Minato has no way to dodge Kamui Raikiri since it blitzed Kaguya and no, she was focused on him as seen here:

*Spoiler*: __ 








While Minato in close range got casually amputed by people way slower than her:

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Except that Minato has no way to dodge Kamui Raikiri since it blitzed Kaguya and no, she was focused on him as seen here:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



pfff, again Kaguya was surprised by his ability, Minato already know about it. 
So, you think Naruto and Sasuke can't dodge Sakura's punch either since it landed on Kaguya? :rofl :rofl 

- Yeah, and the same thing happened to Kakashi.  
do you want me to bring all the pages for Madara talking his sharingan, Obito destroying him with
the shurkin, Zabuzu cutting him down, Pain killing him...etc?


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> pfff, again Kaguya was surprised by his ability, Minato already know about it.
> So, you think Naruto and Sasuke can't dodge Sakura's punch either since it landed on Kaguya? :rofl :rofl
> 
> - Yeah, and the same thing happened to Kakashi.
> ...



-Since when knowledge automatically give him anticipation power? ck
It...doesn't....compare...at...all...with...the...Sakura...moment

-To bad that isn't the Kakashi we are debating while it *is* the Minato that I'm talking about who's in this match-up


----------



## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> -Since when knowledge automatically give him anticipation power? ck
> It...doesn't....compare...at...all...with...the...Sakura...moment
> 
> -To bad that isn't the Kakashi we are debating while it *is* the Minato that I'm talking about who's in this match-up



- Since when he figured it out he destroyed it directly, the same with Madara's Gedu-damas...etc. ck

- oh, so that logic apply to Kakashi but no one else because...kakashi? :rofl 

- Too bad, Minato was with one arm against Madara, and obito just obtained full control over his power out of the blue, unlike Kakashi. It does not help either that both of them are way stronger than Kakashi to begin with. ck 


oh, do you agree that Lee fodderstomps little Madara as well? 


I don't want to see what he will do with him with the first gate. ck


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - Since when he figured it out he destroyed it directly, the same with Madara's Gedu-damas...etc. ck



Too bad he never destroy Madara directly, or the Gudodama for that matter ck



> - oh, so that logic apply to Kakashi but no one else because...kakashi? :rofl


No, the Kakashi moment she was seeing him, so basically she was focused on him and she got blitzed, the Sakura moment she was focused on NaruSasu and she didn't view Sakura as a thread at all.



> - Too bad, Minato was with one arm against Madara, and obito just obtained full control over his power out of the blue, unlike Kakashi. It does not help either that both of them are way stronger than Kakashi to begin with. ck



Yeah, it's not like Kakashi blitzed a stronger person than either of them and that he was dealing with her bone attack rather easily. 



> oh, do you agree that Lee fodderstomps little Madara as well?
> 
> 
> I don't want to see what he will do with him with the first gate. ck



PIS moment is PIS


----------



## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51551278]Too bad he never destroy Madara directly, or the Gudodama for that matter ck


Madara is not worthy enough for that honer, as for the Gedu-dama he did it directly and made them useless.  



> No, the Kakashi moment she was seeing him, so basically she was focused on him and she got blitzed, the Sakura moment she was focused on NaruSasu and she didn't view Sakura as a thread at all.


lol, she was seeing Sakura as well + she did not view Kakashi as a threat either, and he knows it. lol
Link removed


> Yeah, it's not like Kakashi blitzed a stronger person than either of them and that he was dealing with her bone attack rather easily.



I was told that you're specially proud of this. 



> PIS moment is PIS



so, your saying if Madara got fodderized by a blitze then it's PIS, and when Sakura does it, it does not count, but when Kakashi does it it's legit?


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Madara is tot worth for that honer, as for the Gedu-dama he did it directly and made them useless.



That excuse, and making them useless=/=destroying them.




> lol, she was seeing Sakura as well + she did not view Kakashi as a threat either, and he knows it. lol
> Link removed



Not anymore if she was surprised about him slipping though her bone lol.



> I was told that you're specially proud of this.



Who told you? 




> so, your saying if Madara got fodderized by a blitze then it's PIS, and when Sakura does it, it does not count, but when Kakashi does it it's legit?



It was PIS because no Susano/Shinra Tensei/Mokuton. Sakura didn't do a blitz if Kaguya could notice her , that why the "!" .


----------



## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51551371]That excuse, and making them useless=/=destroying them.


they got defeated nevertheless. 




> Not anymore if she was surprised about him slipping though her bone lol.


yeah, which is why he was able to hit her. 




> Who told you?



the little bird. But anyway, what do you thing of Sasuke cutting faildara in half

but couldn't against BZ, the madara destroyer? 


isn't the same same case which prove BZ to be stronger than madara since he did not only fodderize madara, but he was faster than him as well by being able to counter Sasuke's attack unlike Madara? 



> It was PIS because no Susano/Shinra Tensei/Mokuton. Sakura didn't do a blitz if Kaguya could notice her , that why the "!" .



the same "!" was there when Kakashi did what he did. 
you just want to overrate Kakashi and underrate Sakura even though it's the same damn thing. 

what about Naruto using around 10 clones with the sexy jutsu and then being able to hit Kaguya?
is he stronger/faster than himself with 1000 clones that couldn't? lol

or was it just because Kaguya was surprised if his sexy jutsu?


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> they got defeated nevertheless.



So they weren't destroyed? Concession Accepted.




> yeah, which is why he was able to hit her.



Point Taken.




> the little bird. But anyway, what do you thing of Sasuke cutting faildara in half
> 
> but couldn't against BZ, the madara destroyer?
> 
> ...



That Off-Topic. That's because it wasn't BZ anymore. It was Kaguya's Hair.



> the same "!" was there when Kakashi did what he did.
> you just want to overrate Kakashi and underrate Sakura even though it's the same damn thing.



You mean slipping though her bone? Yes. The Kamui Raikiri? There wasn't any.
Also, not my fault if you underrate Kakashi's feat. And Sakura's situation wasn't a blitz. A blitz is when your opponent can't react at all to your attack, which is what happened with Kaguya when a BL Naruto cut her arm off.Same thing happened with Kakashi and Kaguya.



> what about Naruto using around 10 clones with the sexy jutsu and then being able to hit Kaguya?
> is he stronger/faster than himself with 1000 clones that couldn't? lol
> 
> or was it just because Kaguya was surprised if his sexy jutsu?


The latter.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

> =Hachibi;51551563]So they weren't destroyed? Concession Accepted.



Link removed
 



> That Off-Topic. That's because it wasn't BZ anymore. It was Kaguya's Hair.



Dear Lord! 
Hachibi I'm trying to get this point across to you with all those examples.  

It's BZ who is controlling that, as Kaguya was not fully revived yet. The point is, even if someone
was able to hit a faster opponent, that does not mean he can hit everyone else..

1- Madara counterattacked Minato. Minato dodge Guy at full speed, the same guy who fooderized Madara, who couldn't deal with that speed. 

2- BZ fodderized Madara, and countered Sasuke's teleportaion, but he admitted that he would be killed by Minato (and Kakashi?) if he left obito.

3- BZ was able to catch Naruto, and avoid his FRS, but he was helpless against the swordsmen who got him off guard by making his sword huge in no time, which was surprising to him.

Minato by himself dealt with Obito's Kamui in no time and fodderized him. To accomplish this feat it took way longer and a huge team effort from Kakashi, Guy, B, and BM Naruto. I bet no one think base Minato is superior than all of them at the same time. 

the thing is, knowing about the jutsu is a huge factor. Kaguya did not know, but Minato knows about it. It's irrelevant if she is superior to him or not, as unlike him she did not deal with that jutsu before...



> You mean slipping though her bone? Yes. The Kamui Raikiri? There wasn't any.
> Also, not my fault if you underrate Kakashi's feat. And Sakura's situation wasn't a blitz. A blitz is when your opponent can't react at all to your attack, which is what happened with Kaguya when a BL Naruto cut her arm off.Same thing happened with Kakashi and Kaguya.



^ explained above. 

anyway, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Link removed



Didn't know that you can be surprised to destroy a object you know in detail 



> Dear Lord!
> Hachibi I'm trying to get this point across to you with all those examples.
> 
> It's BZ who is controlling that, as Kaguya was not fully revived yet. The point is, even if someone
> was able to hit a faster opponent, that does not mean he can hit everyone else..



It depend on the distance and the speed difference tho.



> 1- Madara counterattacked Minato. Minato dodge Guy at full speed, the same guy who fooderized Madara, who couldn't deal with that speed.



Which he could only do with Perfect timing.



> 2- BZ fodderized Madara, and countered Sasuke's teleportaion, but he admitted that he would be killed by Minato (and Kakashi?) if he left obito.



Different type of situation are different. BZ alone is fodder, but if he's controlling someone he's a that level, and since he's turning into Kaguya he should be obviously >>>>>>>Minato and Pre-Power-up Kakashi.



> 3- BZ was able to catch Naruto, and avoid his FRS, but he was helpless against the swordsmen who got him off guard by making his sword huge in no time, which was surprising to him.



And Zetsu isn't a sensor as far as I know and even if he is, his sensing isn't pasive.



> Minato by himself dealt with Obito's Kamui in no time and fodderized him. To accomplish this feat it took way longer and a huge team effort from Kakashi, Guy, B, and BM Naruto. I bet no one think base Minato is superior than all of them at the same time.



>Comparing 14 year old Obito to 30 year old Obito with Rinnegan.



> the thing is, knowing about the jutsu is a huge factor. Kaguya did not know, but Minato knows about it. It's irrelevant if she is superior to him or not, as unlike him she did not deal with that jutsu before...



Still doesn't make-up for his lack of reflex against Double Kamui.





> anyway, I guess we will to agree to disagree.



If you want.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2014)

How is there even a second a page to this thread?

Kamui Kakashi GG


----------



## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

Ryuzaki said:


> How is there even a second a page to this thread?
> 
> Kamui Kakashi GG



probably because FTG GG'd Kamui and its user.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain, two eyed Kamui is faster than one eyed Kamui.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hussain, two eyed Kamui is faster than one eyed Kamui.



I already addressed that in previous posts. Regardless, it was never stated that Kamui even with double the speed to be instant. Can you please, show me if that happened? Or at least Kamui's feats of freezing the time? 

because other than those possibilities, how can it be faster than FTG?  
+ Minato can use his FTG with clones as well

Remember Obito was able to protect himself when obito returned his Gedu-dama to him, but
he was not fast enough to do so when Minato and Tobirama combined their FTG though...


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> probably because FTG GG'd Kamui and its user.



Post Rikoudo chakra upgrade, FTG or not, Kyuubi or not, Minato gets solo'd.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 24, 2014)

Ryuzaki said:


> Post Rikoudo chakra upgrade, FTG or not, Kyuubi or not, Minato gets solo'd.







unless you think the fraction of Hagoromo's chakra that Kakashi has is greater than the whole thing obito had. :rofl


----------



## Hasan (Aug 26, 2014)

I was tempted to post a response. . . 



Hussain said:


> Minato destroys him.
> 
> Kakashi's Kamui is useless against Minato's speed. We have seen base Minato being faster than 8th gate Guy, and it does not matter if the Kamui is with double the speed, unless it freezes the time it's not getting any faster.



It's called _teamwork_ and not a concrete evidence of him actually able to react to Guy in his Red Steam mode. If I put myself in your shoes, then I'd also think about Lee's kunai throw or Kakashi puncturing the Gudōdama-defense. Of course, if you are explicibly shown to much faster and then a moment later, the slower people are keeping up with you, who are acting as your support, then you obviously slowed down for them, so that they may play their intended roles.



> and Kakashi's Kamui shurkin can be avoided vis shunshin, FTG, or redirected with S/T barrier at Kakashi...
> Kakashi also as shown in the manga cannot make his PS phase through things, so he can't just make the PS avoid Minato's jutsus
> 
> and no, his shurkins will NOT teleport the entire thing like the TBB, otherwise he would have done that to the Gedu-dama. In addition, when it landed against the Rabbi's tails, it just teleported what they hit, not the entire thing...



Kamui Shuriken isn't required. He can just snipe like he has been doing for a greater part of the series, or simply dodge the attacks—which is more economical.




> Or Minato can use his FTG Rasengan to finish him off as he did to obito.



A fight won by a hair's breadth, and only because outside factors were an influence. It is heavily implied that a _drawn-out battle_ between these two would be different.

Kakashi's Mangekyō (left eye) is capable of warping from a distance, without any physical contact. 



> me.
> 
> So, Kai,
> can you put the manga scan for Kamui freezing the time or being stated that it's faster than instant?
> ...



We are led to believe Hiraishin would have failed, if Obito had touched him. It would have failed even here, had Obito not talked. Kakashi boasts having warped a human body at extreme speed and severing an arm of a giant just as it teleported—with just one eye and his own chakra.



Hussain said:


> - Minato's reaction time was fast enough to dodge Guy's 8th gate in its 5th step.
> 
> - lol, nonsense. Even Minato's striking is faster than Kakashi's.
> 
> ...


The last three panels are simply elaboration of what's shown in the above four panels, and in-order. Basically, Minato uses Senjutsu attack only after Kakashi has used Kamui, and Kakashi uses Kamui after Gaara has used Sabakuha.

It tells nothing about their speed, relative to each other, as it's not happening concurrently.



Hussain said:


> unless you think the fraction of Hagoromo's chakra that Kakashi has is greater than the whole thing obito had. :rofl



How is it applicable in this scenario, in which the individual is wielding Rikudō-enhanced Kamui?


----------



## Trojan (Aug 26, 2014)

^
I guess I'll response to you latter as I can't now.
(though it's not guaranteed as I sometimes get bored of even the thought of it lol)


----------



## Trojan (Aug 26, 2014)

> =Hasan;51564264]
> It's called _teamwork_ and not a concrete evidence of him actually able to react to Guy in his Red Steam mode. If I put myself in your shoes, then I'd also think about Lee's kunai throw or Kakashi puncturing the Gudōdama-defense. Of course, if you are explicibly shown to much faster and then a moment later, the slower people are keeping up with you, who are acting as your support, then you obviously slowed down for them, so that they may play their intended roles.


What does teamwork have to do with his speed exactly? As Minato just a second before told him
to never stop no matter what. Minato's speeds far exceeds Guy's it's not even close as it's instent
the guy ended being in konoha in a second. 


> Kamui Shuriken isn't required. He can just snipe like he has been doing for a greater part of the series, or simply dodge the attacks—which is more economical.


It does not matter if it's required or not though, I was talking about if he used it for whatever reason. 
as for dodging the same can be said for Minato who's far faster than Kakashi even in base, let alone in in KCM, remember that Minato stopped him from killing obito before Kakashi could even move his hand? 



> A fight won by a hair's breadth, and only because outside factors were an influence. It is heavily implied that a _drawn-out battle_ between these two would be different.



Yeah, out side influence that Minato had to protect his family and his village where Obito had nothing to worry about at all? 

- yeah, a drawn-out battle that will never make obito go alive that is, and if you want what is implied
then it was heavily implied that Minato can take JJ Obito down as well.  



> Kakashi's Mangekyō (left eye) is capable of warping from a distance, without any physical contact.


it matters not when Minato in base is far faster
1- threw a Kunai
2- used SM
3- teleported with a Rassengan

before Kakashi could even warp a thing.


> We are led to believe Hiraishin would have failed, if Obito had touched him. It would have failed even here, had Obito not talked. Kakashi boasts having warped a human body at extreme speed and severing an arm of a giant just as it teleported—with just one eye and his own chakra.



No, we were shown that even if Obito touched him, it's useless as was proven when he actually did that. 

- Again, Kakashi's teleporting is far below Minato, reread what they both did against Madara. 

as for what "we led to believe" Then we led to believe than teleporting someone to another dimension does not mean jack, hence, Sasuke was able to teleport (summon) his falcon to Kaguya's lava dimension, and Obito was able to use his Kamui to warp between them...etc

so, we led to believe that a FTG user as well won't have a problem and will just summon himself to any of his marks in the real world. Thus, Kamui is useless.



> The last three panels are simply elaboration of what's shown in the above four panels, and in-order. Basically, Minato uses Senjutsu attack only after Kakashi has used Kamui, and Kakashi uses Kamui after Gaara has used Sabakuha.



mmm, Ok? 
how does that change the fact that Kakashi used it first and Minato teleported first?


> It tells nothing about their speed, relative to each other, as it's not happening concurrently.



Nah, Gaara did it first, then Kakashi, then Minato. Yet, Minato teleported to Madara first before Kakashi's Kamui can work even though he needs a lot of time to enter his SM. 



> How is it applicable in this scenario, in which the individual is wielding Rikudō-enhanced Kamui?



Obito had far greater of the sage's power, and he had his eye as well, he would have warped himself if he could (and yes, it's possible to teleport with Kamui as Juubi's host as Madara did) 

but anyway, even IF Kakashi succeeded somehow, Minato will just teleport to any of his marks back to the real world.


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## Hasan (Aug 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> What does teamwork have to do with his speed exactly? As Minato just a second before told him
> to never stop no matter what. Minato's speeds far exceeds Guy's it's not even close as it's instent
> the guy ended being in konoha in a second.



I am aware the jikūkan ninjutsu are fast, but by the statement, you are alluding that Minato has the reflexes to activate it to counter Guy's speed in the final gate. If Madara couldn't keep up with Guy, while having trashed Minato casually, then there is an obvious contradiction in the statement that Minato can react to Guy. If we consider it to be true, then this wouldn't have happened.

They acted as his support, and aided him (he was faster than Madara), while they themselves being slower than Madara. You're not presenting the complete picture, only two panels of Minato appearing and disappearing, whilst ignoring the many other things that help paint the complete picture. What do I make of Lee's kunai throw and Kakashi warping the Gudōdama, as they outsped Eighth Gate Guy as much as Minato outsped him?



> It does not matter if it's required or not though, I was talking about if he used it for whatever reason.



If it's not required, then he will not use it. Throwing shurikens, while perfectly capable of warping it altogether with one shot, is idiotic. Maybe if he's capable of throwing shurikens the size of a bijūdama, then by all means, he should do it. . . would certainly help against a barrage like this, and if he has to protect, say, the village.



> as for dodging the same can be said for Minato who's far faster than Kakashi even in base, let alone in in KCM, remember that Minato stopped him from killing obito before Kakashi could even move his hand?



I was talking about bijūdama. The Susanō can dodge it, eradicating the need to counter it by Kamui shuriken or a simple warp.



> Yeah, out side influence that Minato had to protect his family and his village where Obito had nothing to worry about at all?



His family and village had no influence on why the fight boiled down to speed, and the next move being the decisive one, after that declaration. They were already taken care of, for the duration he confronted Obito.



> - yeah, a drawn-out battle that will never make obito go alive that is, and if you want what is implied
> then it was heavily implied that Minato can take JJ Obito down as well.



*ahem* That moment when he says that he will _create an opening_ for Naruto and Sasuke, only to have his arm severed, as Obito gains control? 




> No, we were shown that even if Obito touched him, it's useless as was proven when he actually did that.



. . . which is why I linked the particular scan when his attempt failed, and when he right after says that next time he would warp Minato _the instant he lays his hand_. Minato agreed, when he says that the decisive factor is the miniscule timeframe, and _whoever secured that_—won. He thought that Hiraishin would have failed, unlike last time, had Obito touched him.

Kakashi's original version eliminates any possibility of the fight ever going down that way. With Obito's version as supplement, and faster Kamui to boot, Kakashi's victory is ensured.



> as for what "we led to believe" Then we led to believe than teleporting someone to another dimension does not mean jack, hence, Sasuke was able to teleport (summon) his falcon to Kaguya's lava dimension, and Obito was able to use his Kamui to warp between them...etc
> 
> so, we led to believe that a FTG user as well won't have a problem and will just summon himself to any of his marks in the real world. Thus, Kamui is useless.



Kaguya's dimensions are in fact spaces—far off places. The term _jikū_ is not used to describe these places, according to takL, while it has been used to describe Kamui.



> mmm, Ok?
> how does that change the fact that Kakashi used it first and Minato teleported first?
> 
> 
> Nah, Gaara did it first, then Kakashi, then Minato. Yet, Minato teleported to Madara first before Kakashi's Kamui can work even though he needs a lot of time to enter his SM.



I figured, I had to explain it in detail. As I said, the last three are just elaboration of the previous four panels.


In the first panel, when Gaara uses Sabakuha, it is shown in the fifth panel, the middle one.
When Kakashi uses Kamui in the second panel, it is shown in the sixth panel, the second last.
When Minato throws his kunai and prepares for a Sennin Modō attack, it is shown in the seventh panel, the last one.

If you isolate one panel, say the middle one, in which Gaara's Sabakuha is shown, then it is the only thing that has been done. Kakashi and Minato are yet to make their moves, despite being shown in the preceding panels. When Kakashi uses Kamui in the second panel, the events of first, fifth and sixth panels have happened. . . and Minato is yet to throw his kunai and activate Sennin Modō. He does it shortly after, but not at the same time.

Sabakuha > Kamui > Sennin Modō. Minato didn't outspeed Kamui, because it happened after that. More precisely, he did not: throw a kunai, entered Sennin Modō and jumped to Madara while Kamui was still begining to warp Obito (which he seemingly negated).

Understandably, there has been inconsistencies as far as speed is concerned, but this is too much. . . and too odd, nonsensical if we see it from your perspective. It's not that hard to figure the sequence of events, in this case. It's usually easier to figure out, if the events are happening concurrently, as it so happens here. Would you say that Yasaka Magatama was fired first i.e. before the bijūdama?



> Obito had far greater of the sage's power, and he had his eye as well, he would have warped himself if he could (and yes, it's possible to teleport with Kamui as Juubi's host as Madara did)
> 
> but anyway, even IF Kakashi succeeded somehow, Minato will just teleport to any of his marks back to the real world.



He seemed irritated that he couldn't slip-through as a jinchūriki, right after that. Regardless, individual ≠ technique. That tells us nothing about a faster Kamui that is further enhanced, being negated by Hiraishin. He didn't need to jump to his timespace, and neither does Kakashi here.


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