# Which Group Does Itachi Belong In



## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Name the group Itachi's tier level most aligns with. 

Group A: 

EMS Living Madara
BSM Naruto 
Rinnegan Obito 
BM Minato 
Group B: 


Prime Nagato 
KCM Minato 
EMS Sasuke Juubito Fight
BM Naruto 
Group C: 


KI Paths of Pain
Adult MS Obito
KCM Naruto 
Hokage Minato 
Group D: 


SM Naruto 
MS Sasuke 
Mu 
SM Jiraiya 
Orochimaru w/p1 Edos


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Name the group Itachi's tier level most aligns with.
> 
> Group A:
> 
> ...




Group D


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## Vice (Oct 12, 2019)

Group D.


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## Kai (Oct 12, 2019)

Group C, though I would put him at the bottom of the group IMO.


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Group D, obviously...


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2019)

Group C


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

@Shark @Orochimaruwantsyourbody @ShinAkuma @Reddan @FlamingRain @Blu-ray @Maverick04


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## Grinningfox (Oct 12, 2019)

Group C


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## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

Top of Group B.

BM Minato does not have the feats to belong in that tier either and can drop down.

Hokage Minato is in the same tier as MS Sasuke and SM Naruto.

Orochimau and Jiraiya are a tier below that.

Mu belongs no where near this list. He is a joke being anywhere close to it. He is way below with Gengetsu.


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

I want to get a lot of replies and get an average


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Top of Group B.
> 
> BM Minato does not have the feats to belong in that tier either and can drop down.
> 
> ...



Why not group A?


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Top of Group B.
> 
> BM Minato does not have the feats to belong in that tier either and can drop down.
> 
> ...


Why isn't itachi on tier below Naruto & Sasuke as well? 
didn't he admit that he will lose to Jiraiya?


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

@Isaiah13000 @Turrin @DaVizWiz @Santoryu


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## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Why isn't itachi on tier below Naruto & Sasuke as well?
> didn't he admit that he will lose to Jiraiya?


If you believe the renowned liar and spy Itachi, surpassed only by Kabuto in both lying and spying was telling the truth then, there is nothing further to discuss. We disagree.


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## Turrin (Oct 12, 2019)

Sick Itachi Group D; Healthy/Edo Itachi Group C


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Group D





Vice said:


> Group D.





Hussain said:


> Group D, obviously...



Why not group C?


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Bonly said:


> Group C





Grinningfox said:


> Group C



Why above Group D?


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Reddan said:


> If you believe the renowned liar and spy Itachi, surpassed only by Kabuto in both lying and spying was telling the truth then, there is nothing further to discuss. We disagree.


mm, so does this mean that every statement that itachi ever made is a lie? 

can we agree that his statement about Tsokyomi is a lie as well? 

---
and let ignore itachi's statement. What about Jiraiya's statement that he will take both of them down?


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Why above Group D?


he is vastly inferior to everyone you listed in group C. So, he obviously doesn't belong there.

Where Group D has characters around his level (more or less)
like Naruto, Sasuke, and Jman. So, that where he belongs... 
although I would put him towards the bottom of that group...


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

For me he is D living and low C as Edo


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

it's funny how people say that (living itachi group D, and ET itachi group C)

and then when a debate involves ET itachi, they will swear up and down how ET makes him weaker...


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> it's funny how people say that (living itachi group D, and ET itachi group C)
> 
> and then when a debate involves ET itachi, they will swear up and down how ET makes him weaker...



I think ET specifically benefits Itachi very much.


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## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> mm, so does this mean that every statement that itachi ever made is a lie?
> 
> can we agree that his statement about Tsokyomi is a lie as well?
> 
> ...


Actually yes. Virtually everything living Itachi said was a LIE. We could look, but I bet over 70% of his statements were lies.

Edo Itachi is different. He is a changed man and given up lying. He even makes a joke about how his his personality has now changed he is back from the dead.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Why above Group D?



I rank him a tier above everyone in group D while on the same tier as everyone in group C


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## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> it's funny how people say that (living itachi group D, and ET itachi group C)
> 
> and then when a debate involves ET itachi, they will swear up and down how ET makes him weaker...


Yes the hypocrisy is funny sometimes, especially when Edos are weaker and by a fair margin.  Edo, weaker Itachi easily outperforms EMS Sasuke, easily outperforms KCM Naruto, seals Nagato, but is a few tiers below.


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Actually yes. Virtually everything living Itachi said was a LIE. We could look, but I bet over 70% of his statements were lies.


interesting. 
I will keep this in mind if we were to debate in the future...  



Reddan said:


> Edo Itachi is different. He is a changed man and given up lying. He even makes a joke about how his his personality has now changed he is back from the dead.


So, itachi & Kabuto are liers, and therefore, none of what they said counts since they are spies.

Can we agree that Zetsu is also a spy?


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## trocollo (Oct 12, 2019)

D is my vote


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## Grinningfox (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Why above Group D?


Beats everyone there bar maybe Sasuke and Mu


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 12, 2019)

Group C


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Beats everyone there bar maybe Sasuke and Mu



Even if that's true its 2 of 4. Seems pretty fitting for that group

Who does he legitimately beat in C?


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> he is vastly inferior to everyone you listed in group C. So, he obviously doesn't belong there.
> 
> Where Group C has characters around his level (more or less)
> like Naruto, Sasuke, and Jman. So, that where he belongs...
> although I would put him towards the bottom of that group...



U dont think he can beat anyone in C or B?


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Why not group C?



I think KCM/Obito are stronger and he could beat more in group C


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Group C



Why above D?


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## Grinningfox (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Even if that's true its 2 of 4. Seems pretty fitting for that group
> 
> Who does he legitimately beat in C?



no it’s 2/5 and that’s due to matchup and can be argued either way 

Minato ( possibly )

Obito via Izanami ( which should never have existed)


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> U dont think he can beat anyone in C or B?


anyone in Group C trashes him.

As for group D, he wins against Oro and Mu (even though I think Mu's abilities are more broken than him, but plot is gonna plot)
where he gets defeated by SM Naruto, Jiraiya, and MS Sasuke.


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> no it’s 2/5 and that’s due to matchup and can be argued either way
> 
> Minato ( possibly )
> 
> Obito via Izanami ( which should never have existed)



So you have Itachi > Minato & Obito?


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> U dont think he can beat anyone in C or B?


no


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## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> interesting.
> I will keep this in mind if we were to debate in the future...


Yes I stick to what I said. Living Itachi just lied non stop and we never get an insight into his thoughts. 


> So, itachi & Kabuto are liers, and therefore, none of what they said counts since they are spies.
> 
> Can we agree that Zetsu is also a spy?


Black Zetsu was not a spy in the way Kabuto and Itachi were.

The difference between Itachi and Kabuto is that, Itachi was always playing his role. Kabuto was free when with Orochimaru. He was devoted to Orochimaru and told him the truth. Then SM Kabuto, thought he was god and unstoppable.


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## Grinningfox (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> So you have Itachi > Minato & Obito?


No


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## ShinAkuma (Oct 12, 2019)

D

His stamina keeps him out of C.


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> anyone in Group C trashes him.
> 
> As for group D, he wins against Oro and Mu (even though I think Mu's abilities are more broken than him, but plot is gonna plot)
> where he gets defeated by SM Naruto, Jiraiya, and MS Sasuke.



What about ppl who thinks he can beat Minato, kcm Naruto or Obito?


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

@MaruUchiha


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> No



Ok.. I think I'm confused then. So how does he fit in with C if he's above none of them and can still possibly lose to the group below C?


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Black Zetsu was not a spy in the way Kabuto and Itachi were.


How so?

he lied about everything to get his agenda fulfilled as well. 
he basically fabricated the entire history. And the entire Akatasuki was fooled into doing something that is completely different
than what they expected. Asspulldara, Obito, and Nagato all thought the collecting Bijuu project will lead to different things...  

So, he is just as unreliable in the "truth" department...


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## MaruUchiha (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> @MaruUchiha


Definitely Group C


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Definitely Group C


I thought you think itachi is the strongest character in the manga?


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Definitely Group C



Is he beating Minato or Obito?


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## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> How so?
> 
> he lied about everything to get his agenda fulfilled as well.
> he basically fabricated the entire history. And the entire Akatasuki was fooled into doing something that is completely different
> ...


To a certain extent, but not when monologue and reporting facts. We can also cross reference things to see when someone is lying. Black Zetsu pretty much said exactly what he saw. His manipulation was very subtle. He led people to come to their own conclusions. 


You can look through the manga and see Black Zetsu tell it as it is. He is especially honest when talking to himself.


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## MaruUchiha (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I thought you think itachi is the strongest character in the manga?


No, YOU said that.. I clearly said things like in and out of character, PIS, etc also help keep power levels in check


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## Grinningfox (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Ok.. I think I'm confused then. So how does he fit in with C if he's above none of them and can still possibly lose to the group below C?



Minato could loose to Mu 

and yet he’s in C

itachi beats everyone in D bar Sasuke due to matchup and Mu (depends if Sharingan can see through his camouflage. )

Mu has an argument for C anyway


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## MaruUchiha (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Is he beating Minato or Obito?


Fuck no, he's the weakest in Group C but he still belongs there


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Reddan said:


> To a certain extent, but not when monologue and reporting facts. We can also cross reference things to see when someone is lying. Black Zetsu pretty much said exactly what he saw. His manipulation was very subtle. He led people to come to their own conclusions.
> 
> 
> You can look through the manga and see Black Zetsu tell it as it is. He is especially honest when talking to himself.



How do you know that tho? 

itachi was lying for what, 5-10 years? and you said he is a lier and all statements he makes cannot be taken seriously.

If Zetsu lying for 1000 years doesn't make him a bigger liar than itachi, then what does?


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Minato could loose to Mu
> 
> and yet he’s in C
> 
> ...



So, you have Mu > Minato?


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## Kai (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Ok.. I think I'm confused then. So how does he fit in with C if he's above none of them and can still possibly lose to the group below C?


He’s above D IMO because everyone in your group D can lose to one or more (and others not listed) from the same group due to match up, while Itachi has less match up issues and more general superiority in strength to any of them. That’s just how I would see it in terms of ranking.

Agreed he doesn’t beat anyone in Group C but if you think he’s at least at the top of Group D it’s not unbelievable him to be ranked at the bottom C.


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Fuck no, he's the weakest in Group C but he still belongs there



Beats nobody in C but belongs there on what merit then?


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Kai said:


> He’s above D IMO because everyone in your group D can lose to one or more (and others not listed) from the same group due to match up, while Itachi has less match up issues and more general superiority in strength to any of them. That’s just how I would see it in terms of ranking.
> 
> Agreed he doesn’t beat anyone in Group C but if you think he’s at least at the top of Group D it’s not unbelievable him to be ranked at the bottom C.



So it wouldnt be wrong to you if someone said he belongs in D?


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## Mithos (Oct 12, 2019)

Itachi belongs in Group D, but you should remove Muu. He doesn't stack up against any of the other ninja there.


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Matto said:


> He belongs in Group D, but you should remove Muu. He doesn't stack up against any of the other ninja there.



Some say Mu belongs in C and can beat Minato


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> No, YOU said that.. I clearly said things like in and out of character, PIS, etc also help keep power levels in check


NBD assumes PIS/CIS are off tho... 

I am assuming that @Shazam not including PIS/CIS? 
please confirm or deny it... (Shazam)


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> NBD assumes PIS/CIS are off tho...
> 
> I am assuming that @Shazam not including PIS/CIS?
> please confirm or deny it... (Shazam)



Just your judgement based on your interpretation of the manga


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## MaruUchiha (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> NBD assumes PIS/CIS are off tho...


When is that ever a thing? Most of the time OPs specifically put "In Character"


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

So, @MaruUchiha 

would you say itachi using Susanoo is OOC?


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## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> How do you know that tho?
> 
> itachi was lying for what, 5-10 years? and you said he is a lier and all statements he makes cannot be taken seriously.


You can try and twist words, but you can just look at the manga.

Why did he keep Sasuke alive? He said on a whim to test himself etc all lies.
Does he care about the village? Said no lies.
Why did he kill his clan? To test his strength lies.
The story he told about Madara? Lies
Not caring about his brother's death? Lies.




> If Zetsu lying for 1000 years doesn't make him a bigger liar than itachi, then what does?


Zetsu rarely lied. He subtly bent the truth and manipulated people. Apart from distorting the Uchiha tablet and lying to Madara about who he was, Zetsu told the truth in every single arc. I would bet Zetsu is actually the most truthful person in the manga.

Tells us about Orochimaru's Hydra technique.
Tells us about Kaguya's history.
Tells us how impressive Chojuro is.
Tells us about Madara's plan to use rinnegan to resurrect himself.
Tells us multiple facts.
Tells us about different jutsu etc

I could go on.


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## Kai (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> So it wouldnt be wrong to you if someone said he belongs in D?


I simply disagree but the gap in question is like half a tier in strength if that not even a tier. That’s not bad by a measure in terms of getting a consensus IMO.


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## MaruUchiha (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Beats nobody in C but belongs there on what merit then?


Well for one he beats everyone in Group D. For two Itachi has abilities in that tier with Group C. Nobody in Group D has abilities on the level of Flying Thunder God, KCM, Kamui spam, Rinnegan paths, or Totsuka Blade/Yata Mirror


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## Mithos (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Some say Mu belongs in C and can beat Minato



Well, they're wrong. Minato shouldn't have too much trouble with Muu. If anything, Minato would be one of his worst match-ups because advanced Flying Thunder God completely counters Muu's assassination style. Abilities aside, Minato's portrayal also blows Muu's out of the water.

In fact, Muu wouldn't defeat anyone in Group D; hell, he wouldn't defeat Jiraiya w/out Sage Mode or Orochimaru w/out ET, let alone if they have those trump cards.


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## MaruUchiha (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> So, @MaruUchiha
> 
> would you say itachi using Susanoo is OOC?


Why would that be out of character Hussain?


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## Grinningfox (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> So, you have Mu > Minato?



Over all?

no

doesn’t mean he can’t beat him


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## Dean Winchester (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Name the group Itachi's tier level most aligns with.
> 
> Group A:
> 
> ...



These groups dont make much sense

But Itachi is definitely B, maybe A at his best


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Reddan said:


> You can try and twist words, but you can just look at the manga.
> 
> Why did he keep Sasuke alive? He said on a whim to test himself etc all lies.
> Does he care about the village? Said no lies.
> ...


I am not debating whether he is a liar or not now. I am just comparing what you think about him
compared to Zetsu who was also a spy, and was lying... 



Reddan said:


> Zetsu rarely lied. He subtly bent the truth and manipulated people. Apart from distorting the Uchiha tablet and lying to Madara about who he was, Zetsu told the truth in every single arc. I would bet Zetsu is actually the most truthful person in the manga


interesting... 
So, Zetsu's experience for 1000 years and deceiving everyone is minor or "a white lie" is what I am getting from this... 

ok, I guess. If you say so...


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## Dean Winchester (Oct 12, 2019)

Many members here seem to undervalue Itachi's skill. You are crazy to think he is C or D


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Why would that be out of character Hussain?


you tell me... 

So, why wouldn't he be the strongest if he uses Susanoo and seals Kaguya for example?
or RM Naruto, or JJ Obito...etc? 

the impression I get from this post is using Susanoo is not OOC. So, how do these characters defeat him?


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 12, 2019)

Group C.
He's the bottom though because of poor stamina. If he's hypothetically healthy I have him there much more comfortably.

He beats everyone in Group D


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## Dean Winchester (Oct 12, 2019)

Lawrence777 said:


> Group C.
> He's the bottom though because of poor stamina. If he's hypothetically healthy I have him there much more comfortably.
> 
> He beats everyone in Group D



He does beat everyone in D, very very easily. But he also beats everyone in C and most people in B


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## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I am not debating whether he is a liar or not now. I am just comparing what you think about him


Yes I think the majority of what Itachi said were just lies. He was playing a character.


> compared to Zetsu who was also a spy, and was lying...
> 
> 
> interesting...
> ...


Zetsu told the truth with a couple of minor 'white lies.' Even the way he twisted the Sage's words weren't exactly untrue. If you have Asura and Indra's power then you CAN pretty much do anything. Apart from that and claiming to Madara's rather than Kaguya's will, I don't think he ever lied in the manga.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> you tell me...
> 
> So, why wouldn't he be the strongest if he uses Susanoo and seals Kaguya for example?
> or RM Naruto, or JJ Obito...etc?
> ...


I never said using Susanoo was out of character.. I didn't even say using Yata Mirror is out of character. I said specifically *Totsuka Blade* is out of character to use on just anyone. Both times it's been used on panel it was because Itachi specifically wanted to seal the 2 targets. They weren't just any random ass enemy


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

they are so minor, that caused wars for a 1000 years... 

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*




*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*


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## MaruUchiha (Oct 12, 2019)

Edo Itachi is in Group B


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> I never said using Susanoo was out of character.. I didn't even say using Yata Mirror is out of character. I said specifically *Totsuka Blade* is out of character to use on just anyone. Both times it's been used on panel it was because Itachi specifically wanted to seal the 2 targets. They weren't just any random ass enemy


would you say JJ Obito, JJ Asspulldara...etc are random ass enemy?


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 12, 2019)

Edo belongs in C
Sick and nearly blind belongs in D


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Edo Itachi is in Group B



Who does he beat in group B?


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## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> they are so minor, that caused wars for a 1000 years...
> 
> *Spoiler*: _1_
> 
> ...


Yes he says himself. he changed just a little bit. Sometimes it takes the smallest of changes in a statement to create the most damage.


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Yes he says himself. he changed just a little bit. Sometimes it takes the smallest of changes in a statement to create the most damage.


What are itachi's lies that you consider major/minors?
(assuming their a substance behind that claim)

like, he only lied about his true intentions regarding SASUKE. What else did say that was a lie? 

Edit:
or is it those?


> Why did he keep Sasuke alive? He said on a whim to test himself etc all lies.
> Does he care about the village? Said no lies.
> Why did he kill his clan? To test his strength lies.
> The story he told about Madara? Lies
> Not caring about his brother's death? Lies.



all of those lies are only related to Sasuke, no?

the Asspulldara thing probably ignorance/retcon rather than lies tho... 
(even tho, it's still related to the situation wit Sasuke only)


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## Vice (Oct 12, 2019)

Dean Winchester said:


> These groups dont make much sense
> 
> But Itachi is definitely B, maybe A at his best



Stop.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 12, 2019)

Even if Itachi actually took Sasuke's eyes and obtained EMS he wouldn't get on A team level.
Edo EMS Itachi maybe, but not living, he has low chakra and illness.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 12, 2019)

lol I feel like Hussain and @Dean Winchester take the most unreasonable extremities and almost seem to try to paint a strawman of sorts against it. Itachi being group C is not unreasonable though. 

I think All 3 Itachi Edo/Healthy/Sick are C though, B is kind of stretching things although Totsuka and Tsukiyomi are still lethal to some of them but raw power wise all those guys are bijuu level+ so  I'm not comfortable thinking he fits even if he can maybe get a lucky shot on them. These guys can legit destroy cities etc w/ 1 attack and no fatigue.


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## Kisame (Oct 12, 2019)

At his best Itachi is comfortably above everyone in group D and weaker than everyone in group C. At his worst he's stronger than most in group D.


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Lawrence777 said:


> lol I feel like Hussain and @Dean Winchester take the most unreasonable extremities and almost seem to try to paint a strawman of sorts against it. Itachi being group C is not unreasonable though.


I am not extremist tho. 
I only state what was stated in the manga. 

Jman > itachi
itachi > Oro

I.E, itachi belongs to that group. the manga has never shown him to be in any different tier... 
As I said before, when it comes to itachi, his level is highly overexgurated because he is a fan favorite. 
not based on concrete evidence from the manga...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> What are itachi's lies that you consider major/minors?
> (assuming their a substance behind that claim)
> 
> like, he only lied about his true intentions regarding SASUKE. What else did say that was a lie?


I have given you a number already:

Feelings for the village:
Why he killed the clan:
Lied to the clan about not knowing about Shishui's death.
Every time he told Sasuke 'another time' when he had no intention of honouring it.
Pretended to be loyal to the Uchiha clan.
Lied to Sasuke about killing his best friend, hoping he wouldn't.
Lied about Madara killing his brother.
Lied about not being able to take Jiraiya.

Possibly lied about Kisame struggling too much with Kakashi. He probably did not want the village destroyed.
Lied about his intentions to capture Naruto.

So those are just some of the many lies he told. 


This is the whole point of Itachi's character and what the final battle is about.
Live like Itachi, thinking you are all powerful, lying, trusting no one, being by yourself and protecting things from the shadows.
                                 Or
'Live' like Edo Itachi, being honest to yourself and others, accepting your failures and trusting your friends to help you. Working as part of a team.


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## MaruUchiha (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Who does he beat in group B?


Once again he's the weakest in that group, but he would possibly beat Bijuu Mode Naruto due to matchup reasons


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Once again he's the weakest in that group, but he would possibly beat Bijuu Mode Naruto due to matchup reasons



So ET Itachi vs Biju Mode Naruto is a legitimate fight?


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

I wonder if this threads shows Itachi as an overrated character or underrated character based on responses


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Reddan said:


> I have given you a number already:
> 
> Feelings for the village:
> Why he killed the clan:
> ...


as I said, those are all based on around Sasuke, and all of them are about one single thing. I.E The uchiha clan.
So, how is that different than Zetsu's?

Those lies were told to Sasuke to make him believe that itachi is his enemy. He is just repeating 1 lie...



Reddan said:


> Lied about not being able to take Jiraiya.


this is your opinion tho, it was never disproven in the manga. 
We can say that Zetsu lied about itachi's Susanoo being invincible as well, no?
or he lied about those tools as well? 



you see what I am doing?


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## FlamingRain (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> @Shark @Orochimaruwantsyourbody @ShinAkuma @Reddan @FlamingRain @Blu-ray @Maverick04



I'm torn between groups C and D. I don't think I would mind Itachi's placement in either compared to the other.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> as I said, those are all based on around Sasuke, and all of them are about one single thing. I.E The uchiha clan.
> So, how is that different than Zetsu's?
> 
> Those lies were told to Sasuke to make him believe that itachi is his enemy. He is just repeating 1 lie...


Or lied to make Konoha believe he was the enemy. He was obviously lying to Kisame the whole time. 


> this is your opinion tho, it was never disproven in the manga.
> We can say that Zetsu lied about itachi's Susanoo being invincible as well, no?
> or he lied about those tools as well?


You can believe what you want. You know Itachi had very good reason to lie about Jiraiya's strength whilst Zetsu had no reason to lie to himself about Itachi.

I can play the same game and try to twist things to make them fit what I want, but I don't The author's intent and portrayal is very apparent, but if you want your favourite character to be the strongest then go ahead.


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## MaruUchiha (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> So ET Itachi vs Biju Mode Naruto is a legitimate fight?


Not really, but it's in character for Itachi to use Totsuka Blade on Kurama avatar.. Don't like it because Jiraiya doesn't stand the slightest chance against Bijuu Mode Naruto not even starting in Sage Mode?


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I am not extremist tho.
> I only state what was stated in the manga.
> 
> Jman > itachi
> ...


It's your impression people are a fan of his hence why he's rated as he is. It could just as well be people just read everything and they simply feel he's as powerful as X. 

Everyone believing Minato > Itachi for example doesn't have to be biased necessarily they may just be the genuine impression they took away.


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Not really, but it's in character for Itachi to use Totsuka Blade on Kurama avatar.. Don't like it because Jiraiya doesn't stand the slightest chance against Bijuu Mode Naruto not even starting in Sage Mode?



Not really worried about it because Itachi stands no chance against BM Naruto either, so
.


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Or lied to make Konoha believe he was the enemy. He was obviously lying to Kisame the whole time.


technically he was tho. He was with the Akatsuki after all, so that's not lying. 



Reddan said:


> You can believe what you want. You know Itachi had very good reason to lie about Jiraiya's strength whilst Zetsu had no reason to lie to himself about Itachi.


he really didn't have any reason to lie. 
itachi told Kisame to kill the Jonin, and he was the reason to take Jman away, so they can take Naruto.

itachi's fans believed in their headcanon, but as far as the manga goes, itachi didn't hesitate to try to kill Konoha's Shinobi.

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*





*Spoiler*: _2_ 



*Link Removed*






---
Also, I asked you before, but you ignored my question... 
what do you think of Jiraiya's statement?

*Spoiler*: _2_ 



*Link Removed*



Jiriaya: "I will just take care of the too of you right here"


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Not really worried about it because Itachi stands no chance against BM Naruto either, so
> .


Hypothetically though if Itachi lucked out and struck BM Naruto with Tsukiyomi or Totsuka what do you think would happen?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Lawrence777 said:


> Hypothetically though if Itachi lucked out and struck BM Naruto with Tsukiyomi or Totsuka what do you think would happen?



Hypothetically if Jiraiya landed Frog Song what do you think would happen? 

Hypothetically if Mu landed a point blank Full Powered Jinton what do you think would happen 

Hypothetically if Kakashi landed Kamui what do you think would happen

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Lawrence777 said:


> It's your impression people are a fan of his hence why he's rated as he is. It could just as well be people just read everything and they simply feel he's as powerful as X.
> 
> Everyone believing Minato > Itachi for example doesn't have to be biased necessarily they may just be the genuine impression they took away.


it's based on bias if they start taking everything in itachi's favor as an indisputable truth
where anything that is against itachi, they say it's lies, retconned, does not count...etc 

For example: itachi say that Kabuto is a bigger liar than he is. 
But itachi's fans will not shy away from using Kabuto's statement to hype itachi. 

some of them even go as far as saying itachi's Amaterasu works differently than Sasuke's Amaterasu
because they do not want to admit that those characters who showed counters to Amaterasu, can actually counter it just as easily
if it were itachi who is using it. 

and the list goes on with everything itachi related. 
So, I think it's quite clear that there is an agenda behind it


it cannot be that ONLY those statement regarding itachi are the ones that are lies/retcons...etc


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## MaruUchiha (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Hypothetically if Jiraiya landed Frog Song what do you think would happen?
> 
> Hypothetically if Mu landed a point blank Full Powered Jinton what do you think would happen
> 
> Hypothetically if Kakashi landed Kamui what do you think would happen


Jiraiya wouldn't last long enough for Frog Song to charge

Particle Style is too slow and was intercepted half the time it was used even by a weaker form of Naruto, it's not happening

Kakashi wouldn't be able to land Kamui before getting nuked


None of these are the same as Edo Itachi winning with Totsuka Blade whether you like it or not


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 12, 2019)

I'm not in disagreement really if those things happen ie Kamui/Jinton/Frog Song the user wins. So they have a chance. Just like Itachi, with Totsuka and Tsukiyomi, has a chance vs BM Naruto.

*But Killer B / Naruto will break out of frog song izanami etc anything but tsukiyomi tbh


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## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

If Itachi wanted to kill Konoha shinboi, they would be dead. This is what an angry Itachi does in close quarters.

Casually fights with KCM Naruto, casually blocks attacks from perfect SM users. Look at Deva Pain try to do the same. 


Kisame strongly hinted Itachi was lying.

If couldn't infer someone, who is much stronger than Orochimaru had no reason to run from another Sannin then that's on you.

As for the 2nd question Jiraiya looks really confident here.

Maybe it's just the heat of Amaterasu making him sweat so much.

I am done with these dicussions about Itachi. You have been provided with all the panels and quotes. Keep believing what you want and denying the manga.


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

Reddan said:


> If Itachi wanted to kill Konoha shinboi, they would be dead. This is what an angry Itachi does in close quarters.


> comparing nameless fodders to named characters. Konoha's strongest Jonin no less. Good start... 



Reddan said:


> Casually fights with KCM Naruto, casually blocks attacks from perfect SM users. Look at Deva Pain try to do the same.


> forgetting to mention that Naruto never intended to fight back and was only there to talk.
> and itachi never fought SM Naruto anyway. 



Reddan said:


> Kisame strongly hinted Itachi was lying.
> 
> If couldn't infer someone, who is much stronger than Orochimaru had no reason to run from another Sannin then that's on you.


So, itachi was lying to someone who knows the truth? Sounds pointless to me... 

Also, ignoring that Naruto & Sasuke were there and will need to be protected...




Reddan said:


> As for the 2nd question Jiraiya looks really confident here.
> 
> Maybe it's just the heat of Amaterasu making him sweat so much.


Well, Jiraiya is a spy. Maybe he was lying as well on this page? 
Also, based on this page, let's post your previous page



itachi already breathing heavily and deactivated his sharingan. He doesn't look so comfortable to me either. 



Reddan said:


> I am done with these dicussions about Itachi. You have been provided with all the panels and quotes. Keep believing what you want and denying the manga.


Thank you for your time.


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Jiraiya wouldn't last long enough for Frog Song to charge
> 
> Particle Style is too slow and was intercepted half the time it was used even by a weaker form of Naruto, it's not happening
> 
> ...



Itachi wouldn't be able to hit with Totuska and gets nuked neg diff



People actually arguing for Itachi > BM Naruto


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

since that page was low quality...

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*




itachi: *huf* *huf*

I.E indicating heavy breathing...


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Lawrence777 said:


> I'm not in disagreement really if those things happen ie Kamui/Jinton/Frog Song the user wins. So they have a chance. Just like Itachi, with Totsuka and Tsukiyomi, has a chance vs BM Naruto.
> 
> *But Killer B / Naruto will break out of frog song izanami etc anything but tsukiyomi tbh



Itachi like the others are below BM Naruto


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## Hina uzumaki (Oct 12, 2019)

I'll put itachi in group D


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Hina uzumaki said:


> I'll put itachi in group D



Lol are u sure not B like some of the others think


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Itachi like the others are below BM Naruto


I didn't mean the others vs BM Naruto lol I meant in general if their special attack lands they beat their enemy. Those guys have no chance vs BM Naruto only Itachi has a chance vs him due to Totsuka/Tsukiyomi.

It was in relation to your earlier assessment: 



Shazam said:


> Not really worried about it because Itachi stands no chance against BM Naruto either, so
> .


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## Hina uzumaki (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Lol are u sure not B like some of the others think


Of course.. I'll rank his edo version higher tho


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 12, 2019)

I also put BM Naruto above him already here: 





Lawrence777 said:


> I think All 3 Itachi Edo/Healthy/Sick are C though, B is kind of stretching things although Totsuka and Tsukiyomi are still lethal to some of them but raw power wise all those guys are bijuu level+ so I'm not comfortable thinking he fits even if he can maybe get a lucky shot on them. These guys can legit destroy cities etc w/ 1 attack and no fatigue.


But obviously if Itachi gets a hit in with Totsuka/Tsukiyomi he's gonna defeat him don't mean he's on his level. Frog Song can _never_ defeat BM Naruto. Also Kamui warp time vs Gedo Mazo we already saw is way to long let alone BM Kurama avatar. Only Totsuka/Tsukiyomi as they are like 1 second jutsu.


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Lawrence777 said:


> I didn't mean the others vs BM Naruto lol I meant in general if their special attack lands they beat their enemy. Those guys have no chance vs BM Naruto only Itachi has a chance vs him due to Totsuka/Tsukiyomi.
> 
> It was in relation to your earlier assessment:



Itachi has a slim chance as do the others with abilities mentioned 


BM Naruto is above Itachi and those others.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 12, 2019)

You just ignored my points though.

Perfect Jinchuuriki like BM Naruto can use the friendly bijuu inside them to break them out of any genjutsu (including Frog Song) using the partner method. The only exception is Itachi's Tsukiyomi.

Kamui takes longer to execute depending on the size of the barrier and the target, we saw a delay for warping Gedo Mazo's neck. BM Naruto's Kurama Avatar is substantially bigger the Gedo's neck, so it would take even longer. Tsukiyomi/Totsuka are 1 second jutsu however.

Jinton is also slower and telegraphed. BM Naruto moves superfast, deflect bijuu damas, track Juubito etc. Kamui/Jinton not an option hence why I named only 1 second jutsu.

Basically in a nutshell those guys stand 0 chance vs BM Naruto, in Jiraiya case Frog Song even if lands would be broken instantly. Itachi stands > 0 chance vs him however. Not sure how more simply I can say it.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> BM Naruto is above Itachi and those others.


And that's redundant I already addressed this.


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## Maverick04 (Oct 12, 2019)

Group D as his living sick self.
Group C as an Edo


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

Lawrence777 said:


> And that's redundant I already addressed this.



Then your whole point of bringing up Itachi vs BM Naruto is just as laughable as me bringing up those other characters versus him as well.


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## ZmkSc (Oct 12, 2019)

Due to MS's drawbacks , i would place him in  group D.


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## sabre320 (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I wonder if this threads shows Itachi as an overrated character or underrated character based on responses


Overrated easily....the majority are placing him where he belings in the group of high end kages such as muu[who was beating gaara and oonoki in thedesert], sm naruto, ms sasuke who beats him due to matchup etc.....hardly underrating him...while there are several of his fans placing him above bm naruto and bm minato or on that level...which he doesn't even remotely belong.


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## MShadows (Oct 12, 2019)

>imagine believing Itachi stands a chance against BM Naruto when he gets instantly blitzed and murdered...

Anyway, he’s between Group D and Group C. He beats the people in the former while losing to the guys in the latter.

Reactions: Like 1


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## blk (Oct 12, 2019)

The groups aren't completely accurate imo, but still not that bad.

Anyway i put him at group C.

Why? Because he has very strong chances against Minato (genjutsu GG) and Obito (Izanami GG).
So in two out of those four matches, the result heavily depends on battle circumstance (such as knowledge).

Pain and KCM Naruto have an arsenal that is well suited to fight someone like Itachi, so for match up issues his chances against them are generally on the low side.

Edo Itachi tho would be at the top of group C with Pain.


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## Charmed (Oct 12, 2019)

Group D, obviously


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 12, 2019)

Your group D is factually incorrect 

Omit the Sannin from it and Id peg Itachi at the top of that rank

Hes arguably low C anyway


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## Phenomenon (Oct 12, 2019)

Group D, Borderline C.


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## Isaiah13000 (Oct 12, 2019)

@Shazam Group D, he's above everyone in it (although only slightly above SM Naruto/MS Sasuke) and comfortably below anyone in Group C.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Itachi wouldn't be able to hit with Totuska and gets nuked neg diff


Ever heard of Yata Mirror?


Shazam said:


> People actually arguing for Itachi > BM Naruto


No, I'm arguing Edo Itachi has a small chance at defeating him unlike his alive self.. Sorry that Jiraiya doesn't stand a chance not even on a snowy day in hell


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Ever heard of Yata Mirror?
> 
> No, I'm arguing Edo Itachi has a small chance at defeating him unlike his alive self.. Sorry that Jiraiya doesn't stand a chance not even on a snowy day in hell



Lol Itachi literally stands zero chance against BM Naruto. I'm sorry that you feel differently


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## MaruUchiha (Oct 12, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Lol Itachi literally stands zero chance against BM Naruto. I'm sorry that you feel differently


Have fun nerfing Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror out of in denial that Itachi is way out of Jiraiya's league


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## Shazam (Oct 12, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Have fun nerfing Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror out of in denial that Itachi is way out of Jiraiya's league



Lol BM Naruto > Itachi. 

I'm not sure there is anything else to say


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## Quikdraw7777 (Oct 12, 2019)

Like a few others stated, if he _is_  in Group C, he's fighting for the "bottom of the bag".

Minato's natural speed + Hairaishin alone is serious business.


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## Shazam (Oct 13, 2019)

Added a poll


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## Shazam (Oct 13, 2019)

@Orochimaru op @Orochimaruwantsyourbody @Hussain @ShinAkuma @sabre320 @Zero890 

Poll vote


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## Kisame (Oct 13, 2019)

Shazam said:


> @Orochimaru op @Orochimaruwantsyourbody @Hussain @ShinAkuma @sabre320 @Zero890
> 
> Poll vote


How do this who rate him as suitable for both C and D vote?


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## MShadows (Oct 13, 2019)

@Shazam add a D+ or C- option


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## Shazam (Oct 13, 2019)

Shark said:


> How do this who rate him as suitable for both C and D vote?





MShadows said:


> @Shazam add a D+ or C- option



I'm not making those minut changes just to accommodate people who cant decide which group he fits most with.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Oct 13, 2019)

He's somewhere in between D and C, imo. Everyone in D can put up a fight against everyone in C, though they're still inferior. Itachi is just a bit more lethal than the group D guys but not enough to group him with the C guys.


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## MShadows (Oct 13, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I'm not making those minut changes just to accommodate people who cant decide which group he fits most with.


D it is then


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## The_Conqueror (Oct 13, 2019)

Group D. 

Group C are shinobi that are not only stronger but have more ulility than Itachi as shinobi.

Group D needs a favourable circumstance to beat any member of group C and same applies to Itachi. K


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## Zero890 (Oct 13, 2019)

Itachi in the C group it's just wank. Hokage Minato blitzes him, KCM Naruto destroys him with 13 shadow clones, Obito sends him to boxland low diff and Pain defeats him mid diff.

 He is belong the group D objectively.


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## Katou (Oct 13, 2019)

definitely D


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## Dean Winchester (Oct 13, 2019)

A or B is the only correct answer. Nothing stops Yata Mirror and nothing stops Totuska Blade. Itachi is faster than KCM Naruto as well.


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## MShadows (Oct 13, 2019)

Dean Winchester said:


> A or B is the only correct answer. Nothing stops Yata Mirror and nothing stops Totuska Blade. Itachi is faster than KCM Naruto as well.


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## Dean Winchester (Oct 13, 2019)

Should just read the manga its all there


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## Dean Winchester (Oct 13, 2019)

Vice said:


> Stop.



Stop telling the truth?

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Oct 13, 2019)

Dean Winchester said:


> Should just read the manga its all there


Wake up, bruh...


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## Dean Winchester (Oct 13, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Wake up, bruh...



Debate me then. 

Nobody in groups D,C, or mostly even B can even compete against Yata Mirror or Totuska Blade. Only in group A does Itachi have troubles due to match ups

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Oct 13, 2019)

Dean Winchester said:


> Debate me then.
> 
> Nobody in groups D,C, or mostly even B can even compete against Yata Mirror or Totuska Blade. Only in group A does Itachi have troubles due to match ups


I see, so you're one of those guys that hugs the no limits fallacy that is "muh yata mirror and totsuka blade are invincible" hyperbole and thinks it's supposed to be taken literally...

There's nothing to debate here. Please take a step into reality and realize just how ridiculous what you wrote is.
Until then, have a nice day!


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Dean Winchester said:


> A or B is the only correct answer. Nothing stops Yata Mirror and nothing stops Totuska Blade. Itachi is faster than KCM Naruto as well.


Dude you can't take hyperbola seriously like this


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## Garcher (Oct 13, 2019)

A, respect the King.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

MShadows said:


> I see, so you're one of those guys that hugs the no limits fallacy that is "muh yata mirror and totsuka blade are invincible" hyperbole and thinks it's supposed to be taken literally...
> 
> There's nothing to debate here. Please take a step into reality and realize just how ridiculous what you wrote is.
> Until then, have a nice day!


You need to realise just how blinded you are.

Itachi is able to fight at KCM levels. 
Totsuka is too fast for Nagato to react to. Just manga facts, which we see clearly. Nagato is top of this *Tier B.* So quite clearly nobody below Tier B is reacting too and countering it. 

So top of Tier B is the bare minimum Itachi is in. 

It's incredible how many people deny feats and statements.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Oct 13, 2019)

Somewhere between C-D

I could be more precise if the lists themselves were amended.


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Dude you can't take hyperbola seriously like this


Hyperbole or not. Zesu had seen a lot of battles and the shock and sweat showed he considered Itachi near the top of every battle he had seen.

Madara's fan was able to reflect a min/Kyubi rasangan/Biju ball. This is jut Madara's fan, with no hype. So what do you think the Yata Mirror could do with the incredible hype it got? The Mirror also has feats of expanding and easily blocking Sasuke's kusanagi sword, which pierced SM Madara.

Totsuka blitzed Nagato and sealed him away. This is a Rinnegan user, capable of reacting to KCM Naruto, but he couldn't react to Totsuka. He could not absorb Totsuka, he just got sealed. On panel feats it is faster than every single character in Tier B and below.

These aren't even outliers and the strength of these weapons are reinforced in the databook and when we next see Itachi. Easily blitzing and sealing a Rinnegan user.


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> You need to realise just how blinded you are.
> 
> Itachi is able to fight at KCM levels.
> Totsuka is too fast for Nagato to react to. Just manga facts, which we see clearly. Nagato is top of this *Tier B.* So quite clearly nobody below Tier B is reacting too and countering it.
> ...


Itachi literally needed help from B and Naruto to get to that point; yet somehow you think the author want's us to believe he's superior to Nagato?


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Hyperbole or not. Zesu had seen a lot of battles and the shock and sweat showed he considered Itachi near the top of every battle he had seen.
> 
> Madara's fan was able to reflect a min/Kyubi rasangan/Biju ball. This is jut Madara's fan, with no hype. So what do you think the Yata Mirror could do with the incredible hype it got? The Mirror also has feats of expanding and easily blocking Sasuke's kusanagi sword, which pierced SM Madara.
> 
> ...


Look man you can't take generic Technique hype like this seriously from Kishimoto; that's just how he writes. It doesn't matter who the source is, even when the source is Kishimoto himself, he states nonsense like this. I mean look this is from the Second Data-Book and Kishimoto himself on Leaf Whirlwind 

*Leaf Strong Whirlwind (Konoha Gouriki Senpuu)*
Taijutsu, B-rank, Offensive, Close-range

User: Maito Gai

*Grinding evil and malice into dust! A howling spinning kick!! Supreme strength! No use holding back!!*

Maito Gai, the greatest taijutsu user in the Leaf Village. The essence of his taijutsu is concentrated in this spinning back kick. He spins with such speed that not a single person can follow his movement, smashing his enemy with overwhelming strength.

A savage taijutsu, combining speed and power, using only his body as a weapon! His speed lets no one escape, his strength cannot be blocked. No matter how gigantic a body they have, anyone who gets hits by this kick even once will not be getting back up…

According to this no single person can follow the speed of Gai's Leaf Whirlwind, not Kaguya, not Hagaromo, not Minato, NO One.

According to this his Leaf Whirlwind can't be blocked; Not Kaguya, Not the Yata Mirror, Not nothin

According to this LGai's Leaf Whirlwind would one-shot anyone if it landed; Kaguya, Madara, Itachi, anyone.

So going off this shit; a serious all out Leaf Whirlwind from Gai is too fast to be evaded, can't be blocked, and One-shots everyone; so Base-Gai > Kaguya, if we take Kishimoto word for it; and his Base Leaf Whirl-Wind is actually stronger then Night Guy, because this failed to kill Madara, but Leaf Whirlwind would lol


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Itachi literally needed help from B and Naruto to get to that point; yet somehow you think the author want's us to believe he's superior to Nagato?


Nope. He actually had to come in to save Bee and Naruto. He was not bothered by CT in the slightest. He was joking with Naruto, whilst the the size of CT was getting bigger and bigger. He showed no alarm and then told them how to counter it. 

No sweat, no pressure no !!, nothing. 

We don't need to go into how he with kunai, got around Nagato's shared vision. Blitzed Nagato with Susano'o to save Bee and Naruto either. 

It will be denied and downplayed, but the manga has it right there.

Not to mention Itachi can just blitz Nagato with Totsuka, before CT is used. 

Also Nagato has some of the best reaction feats in the manga. So Totsuka blitzing him before he can react means it is blitzing everyone below Nagato level, which is EVERY ninja apart from Ashura/Indra reincarnations and 10 tails Jinchuriki.


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Nope. He actually had to come in to save Bee and Naruto. He was not bothered by CT in the slightest. He was joking with Naruto, whilst the the size of CT was getting bigger and bigger. He showed no alarm and then told them how to counter it.
> 
> No sweat, no pressure no !!, nothing.


He asked for Naruto and B's help in destroying CT; it's obvious that he couldn't do it on his own


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look man you can't take generic Technique hype like this seriously from Kishimoto; that's just how he writes. It doesn't matter who the source is, even when the source is Kishimoto himself, he states nonsense like this. I mean look this is from the Second Data-Book and Kishimoto himself on Leaf Whirlwind
> 
> *Leaf Strong Whirlwind (Konoha Gouriki Senpuu)*
> Taijutsu, B-rank, Offensive, Close-range
> ...


I know how the databook works, but it is not the databook which gives it the hype.
It's the feat of blitzing Nagato's reactions AND a shield capable withstanding everything thrown at it. The databook explains how it works.

Zetsu is having a monologue with himself,has no reason to lie calls Itachi invincible with those weapons.We have seen Totsuka blitzes everyone below at Nagato level and below.


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He asked for Naruto and B's help in destroying CT; it's obvious that he couldn't do it on his own


No he came up with a plan for insurance sake and Edo Itachi works as a team, he does not do everything by himself. He was living his new motto,which is the whole point of Itachi.

During his life he did everything by himself, thought he was unstoppable and could do anything, but he failed in Sasuke. Edo Itachi has learnt from his mistakes, is truthful and upfront and works with the team.

I've addressed this before, but he showed more panic facing Kabuto's White Rage and Inorganic attacks, than he did facing CT.

Or are you going to argue that Magatama is on the same level as a Bijuu bomb too?


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> I know how the databook works, but it is not the databook which gives it the hype.
> It's the feat of blitzing Nagato's reactions AND a shield capable withstanding everything thrown at it. The databook explains how it works.
> 
> Zetsu is having a monologue with himself,has no reason to lie calls Itachi invincible with those weapons.We have seen Totsuka blitzes everyone below at Nagato level and below.


Okay so let's talk feats.

Blitzing Nagato isn't very impressive because he was crippled; and right after Itachi hits him with Totsuka blade; its stated that he was compensating for this with Shared Vision, which had already been dismantled by Itachi. There also the fact that Nagato vision was partially obscured by the dust cloud kicked up by the destruction of CT. All of this combined detracts from that feat.

Yata mirror in terms of defense; has only ever blocked Yamata no Orochi, which is a fine feat, but it's that amazing compared to most of the High-Tiers Jutsu. In-fact you will find that in most discussions people need to backwards scale Itachi's Susanoo's defense based on what Madara's and Sasuke's Susanoo are capable off in lower stages, becasuse of it's lack of feats. 

I actually think I hold Yata Mirrors defense higher then most people; saying I think it could 'maybe' deflect a TBB.

----

Zetsu has no reason to lie other then the person putting pen to the paper to write his dialog is Kishimoto; the same man who constantly overhypes Jutsu as I said. So you can't take BZ hype comments anymore seriously then you can take Leaf Whirlwind being a unstoppable one-shot seriously. You just can't. 

Oh and by the way right before this statement Zetsu also said Kirin was unavoidable; and then proceeded to avoid it himself LOL. Now you can argue he wasn't the target, but  he was within it's AOE, and that's still really misleading language he used. Also are we going to say Kirin is unavoidable for Minato, Kaguya, Obito, etc... too 

Like come on man


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## Vice (Oct 13, 2019)

Dean Winchester said:


> Stop telling the truth?


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> No he came up with a plan for insurance sake and Edo Itachi works as a team, he does not do everything by himself. He was living his new motto,which is the whole point of Itachi.
> 
> During his life he did everything by himself, thought he was unstoppable and could do anything, but he failed in Sasuke. Edo Itachi has learnt from his mistakes, is truthful and upfront and works with the team.
> 
> ...


Yes the plan included Naruto and B helping him.

How does he stop CT on his own.

Are you arguing Matagama is on the same level of TBB; Magatama that was stopped by Sand Wall / Golem  when used by a stronger character? Magatama that was stopped by a Cave's rock walls?


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes the plan included Naruto and B helping him.
> 
> How does he stop CT on his own.
> 
> Are you arguing Matagama is on the same level of TBB; Magatama that was stopped by Sand Wall / Golem  when used by a stronger character? Magatama that was stopped by a Cave's rock walls?


Madara did not fire the three connected, though I would be interested to see the databook's description of Magatama. Three joined together would be stronger than the individual beads Madara fired.

No the Magatama attack should not be on the same level as TBB. However, Itachi has options to fire several of the 3 joint together at the core straight away, which if he didn't waste time talking would be much smaller. He could launch an Amaterasu at ball straight away, whilst he protected himself with the Yata Mirror. Or he could just blitz Nagato with Totsuka before he had a chance.

This is just Nagato. 

EMS Sasuke and BM Naruto have no counter to Totsuka and don't have the reactions to react either. So why exactly are they above Itachi? The same goes for Minato and you would agree with that. So the obvious bias is clearly showing.


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Madara did not fire the three connected, though I would be interested to see the databook's description of Magatama. Three joined together would be stronger than the individual beads Madara fired.
> 
> No the Magatama attack should not be on the same level as TBB. However, Itachi has options to fire several of the 3 joint together at the core straight away, which if he didn't waste time talking would be much smaller. He could launch an Amaterasu at ball straight away, whilst he protected himself with the Yata Mirror. Or he could just blitz Nagato with Totsuka before he had a chance.
> 
> ...



1. Yeah Madara fired many more then 3 lol

2. Proof that 3 Connected makes any kind of 'Substantial' difference in offensive capabilities

3. Proof that 3 'connected' Magatama x3, would even be in the same universe as TBB

4. So he's going to use Amaterasu on CT; that he's being drawn into; seems like a good way to die to me

5. He didn't blitz Nagato with Totsuka though; so that's irrelevant

6. Show me Feats that indicate Totsuka can A) Pierces through EMS-Sasuke's Susanoo or BM Naruto Avatar; and B) Can actually hit EMS-Sasuke or BM-Naruto.

7. I have no clue what your point is with Minato


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## Shazam (Oct 13, 2019)

Glad the polls reflect properly


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Yeah Madara fired many more then 3 lol


Madara fired them separately. It is logical that 3 together are more powerful than separate beads.


> 2. Proof that 3 Connected makes any kind of 'Substantial' difference in offensive capabilities


It's a fairly logical and sensible conclusion. It has greater force and greater impact. In fact I am surprised you would ask such a foolish question. 


> 3. Proof that 3 'connected' Magatama x3, would even be in the same universe as TBB


I never said it would, I said it could possibly be enough for the early stages. We have no idea how powerful Itachi's combined Magatama beads are. 


> 4. So he's going to use Amaterasu on CT; that he's being drawn into; seems like a good way to die to me


Nope, because he puts up the Yata mirror to defend himself, until the core is burnt up.


> 5. He didn't blitz Nagato with Totsuka though; so that's irrelevant


He did. Nagato could not react. 


> 6. Show me Feats that indicate Totsuka can A) Pierces through EMS-Sasuke's Susanoo or BM Naruto Avatar; and B) Can actually hit EMS-Sasuke or BM-Naruto.


EMS Sasuke has much slower reactions and movement speed than Itachi. 

Totsuka is a spiritual weapon with no form. Zetsu has seen all top fights and told us it made him invincible. 
The burden of proof is on you. You need to prove that Sasuke's Susano'o can block spiritual attacks or the same for BM Avatar.


> 7. I have no clue what your point is with Minato


Minato has worse reactions than Nagato so he gets blizted too.

So you need to provide the burden of proof that EMS Sasuke reactions improved from the Kabuto fight. 
You need to prove that EMS Sasuke/BM Naruto can block spiritual weapons, which Zetsu called invincible.

You have a lot to proof and manga statements and feats are against you.


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## TBBH (Oct 13, 2019)

He belongs in group d where he can beat everyone bar Mu but that's just my opinion


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Madara fired them separately. It is logical that 3 together are more powerful than separate beads.
> 
> It's a fairly logical and sensible conclusion. It has greater force and greater impact. In fact I am surprised you would ask such a foolish question.
> 
> ...



1-2. I don't see why it's logical that them being tied together and hitting one target; would be different then them being separate and all hitting the same target at the same time. I just don't. 

3. TBB + FRS + Magatama were used to counter the core; and connecting with the core canceled these techniques out as well. So it seems like this amount of force was required; and it seems VERY unlikely that even 3 of Itachi's Magatama would get anywhere near that level of force.

4. Proof the Core can be burned; Proof that Itachi can maintain Susanoo long enough for this to happen. Nagato would also end Itachi with another Jutsu while this is going on

5. He didn't blitz him before he could use CT; was my point wise guy

6. Itachi's physical speed is irrelevant; were talking about Susanoo's speed

7. Yet it clearly had a form against Yamata no Orochi, when it made physical contact with its heads. Yata Mirror is also spirit item too; and it has physical form when it blocks attacks. The weapons are made from chakra, that's why they are spirit weapons; but they take on physical forms to attack and block.

8. Proof Minato has worse reactions then Nagato w/o Shared Vision

9. 

We are shown Sasuke's reactions improving; with him adjusting to JJ Obito's speed over time. Also at no point did Itachi blitz Sasuke in the Kabuto fight with Susanoo, so I don't even know why your bring that fight up as an example

Zetsu hyperbolic language should be disregard entirely; and you continuing to bring it up even though I showed you why, is not good form in a discussion like this, and makes it hard to not assume you aren't just bias for Itachi.


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1-2. I don't see why it's logical that them being tied together and hitting one target; would be different then them being separate and all hitting the same target at the same time. I just don't.


Presuming they are thrown at the same speed, they would have greater force and thus greater power. 


> 3. TBB + FRS + Magatama were used to counter the core; and connecting with the core canceled these techniques out as well. So it seems like this amount of force was required; and it seems VERY unlikely that even 3 of Itachi's Magatama would get anywhere near that level of force.


These techniques all explode on impact. They didn't get cancelled they exploded like they are supposed to do.


> 4. Proof the Core can be burned; Proof that Itachi can maintain Susanoo long enough for this to happen. Nagato would also end Itachi with another Jutsu while this is going on


Amaterasu has burnt through fire and water. It has burnt through a firebreathing toad. Everything chakra made has been burnt by it. Please provide proof that the core can stand something, which burns fire and water.


> 5. He didn't blitz him before he could use CT; was my point wise guy


He never tried, he was saving Bee and Naruto. He did blitz him to save Bee and Naruto though. Nagato could not react to Itachi coming in from his blindside. 

Nagato could not react and lost his arm.


> 6. Itachi's physical speed is irrelevant; were talking about Susanoo's speed


As posted Susano'o blitzed earlier.


> 7. Yet it clearly had a form against Yamata no Orochi, when it made physical contact with its heads. Yata Mirror is also spirit item too; and it has physical form when it blocks attacks. The weapons are made from chakra, that's why they are spirit weapons; but they take on physical forms to attack and block.


Please give me proof the weapons are made from chakra. The relationship, between spiritual and physical weapons is a tough one to answer. I would not be surprised if the weapons predate the ninja system.


> 8. Proof Minato has worse reactions then Nagato w/o Shared Vision


The several feats shown. Nagato has better reaction feats than Bee and KCM Naruto.Bee countered Minato and KCM Naruto was shown to have better reaction feats.


> 9. We are shown Sasuke's reactions improving; with him adjusting to JJ Obito's speed over time. Also at no point did Itachi blitz Sasuke in the Kabuto fight with Susanoo, so I don't even know why your bring that fight up as an example


Where are we shown this. Please give proof.


> Zetsu hyperbolic language should be disregard entirely; and you continuing to bring it up even though I showed you why, is not good form in a discussion like this, and makes it hard to not assume you aren't just bias for Itachi.


Please give me examples of Zetsu using hyperbolic language again or calling someone else. If you can provide me evidence of  Zetsu calling anyone else invincible, then I will concede.

Itachi is up there, but behind Kakashi/Minato and Gai as my favourites. I may be wrong, but it is not bias. I am going by what the manga shows.

As I said I read from the kage vs Madara fight to the end of the manga recently. It is Kishimoto giving Itachi absurd hype, right until the end of the manga.


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Presuming they are thrown at the same speed, they would have greater force and thus greater power.
> 
> These techniques all explode on impact. They didn't get cancelled they exploded like they are supposed to do.
> .


The first point is fair, but even if it's a bit stronger it's nowhere near TBB; not even 10 Magatama would be.

In the case of the second point, whenever TBB has exploded it created that huge AOE explosion; this isn't evident in the case of CT, this leads me to believe the core neutralized it. If you disagree that's fine.

However the bottom line is that what we are shown in the manga is TBB + FRS + Magatama destroying the core. So the burden of proof is on you to show that the Core can be destroyed by a significantly weaker offense. Otherwise I'm going to go with what's shown in the Manga (or at least something close to that); and we'll have to agree to disagree.



> Amaterasu has burnt through fire and water. It has burnt through a firebreathing toad. Everything chakra made has been burnt by it. Please provide proof that the core can stand something, which burns fire and water.


Are any of those things the Core? No; then they are irrelevant. And that's not how this works, your the one asserting that Amaterasu can burn through the core, so you need to provide evidence it can. Otherwise I remain undecided about whether it can or can't do this, and more importantly if it could do this in a short enough time-frame that Itachi doesn't run out of Chakra.

Though even more importantly Nagato would kill Itachi with another Jutsu while this process is going on.



> He never tried, he was saving Bee and Naruto. He did blitz him to save Bee and Naruto though. Nagato could not react to Itachi coming in from his blindside.
> 
> Nagato could not react and lost his arm.


Was it with the Totsuka Blade. No it wasn't. Was it after Shared Vision was taken out. Yes it was.



> Please give me proof the weapons are made from chakra. The relationship, between spiritual and physical weapons is a tough one to answer. I would not be surprised if the weapons predate the ninja system.


They are spontaneously generated by Itachi's Dojutsu; how are they not chakra lol.

This also doesn't matter, regardless of what they are, they have shown physical form when blocking and attacking, which is all that matters.



> The several feats shown. Nagato has better reaction feats than Bee and KCM Naruto.Bee countered Minato and KCM Naruto was shown to have better reaction feats


Show me feats from Nagato w/o Shared vision



> Where are we shown this. Please give proof.


We are shown Obito evading Sasuke and Naruto's attacks. Naruto talks about how he's slowly getting used to Obito's speed and in the same panel we see focus on Sasuke's Choke Tome Sharingan implying he is also getting used to these movements:


And then they managed to land blows on Obito together right after that forcing him to block:


We are also later told why this increase in speed is happening; as Sasuke according to Madara has a Straight Tome Sharingan which he continued to get accustom to throughout the battles of the WA



> Please give me examples of Zetsu using hyperbolic language again or calling someone else. If you can provide me evidence of Zetsu calling anyone else invincible, then I will concede.


I gave you examples of the author using hyperbolic language; so I shouldn't have to give you examples of specifically Zetsu. That's an unfair goal post your setting, I want you to understand this first.

But I will give examples of Zetsu using hyperbolic language too:

Zetsu says Kirin is un-avoidable; and then proceeds to avoid it.

Zetsu says Itachi's eye contains the Strongest Genjutsu (Tskuyomi); we know this isn't true as Mugen Tsukuyomi is eons above it

Says Itachi's eye contains the Strongest Physical Attack (Amaterasu); we know this isn't true as Kaguya's TSB is eons above it

It's basically the same exact type of shit Kishimoto says in the Data-book


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The first point is fair, but even if it's a bit stronger it's nowhere near TBB; not even 10 Magatama would be.
> 
> In the case of the second point, whenever TBB has exploded it created that huge AOE explosion; this isn't evident in the case of CT, this leads me to believe the core neutralized it. If you disagree that's fine.


Yes I disagree with your last point and if Magatama is so weak, what was the point of Itachi throwing it? Why didn't he just ask Bee to launch several Bijuu bombs?


> However the bottom line is that what we are shown in the manga is TBB + FRS + Magatama destroying the core. So the burden of proof is on you to show that the Core can be destroyed by a significantly weaker offense. Otherwise I'm going to go with what's shown in the Manga (or at least something close to that); and we'll have to agree to disagree.


We are shown all three destroyed the core, after they had been talking, joking and allowing to the core to get bigger. Nothing indicates they had to waste so much time. Also they destroyed the core easily. It could have been overkill.


> Are any of those things the Core? No; then they are irrelevant. And that's not how this works, your the one asserting that Amaterasu can burn through the core, so you need to provide evidence it can. Otherwise I remain undecided about whether it can or can't do this, and more importantly if it could do this in a short enough time-frame that Itachi doesn't run out of Chakra.


Amaterasu was said to burn through everything and apart from being absorbed this for the most part is true. The Black core, is made of chakra and so can be burnt by Amaterasu. Amaterasu has even burnt the Bijuu shrouds, though they can be removed.


> Though even more importantly Nagato would kill Itachi with another Jutsu while this process is going on.


What other jutsu? When Itachi is fighting Nagato, kunai are a legitimate problem. They endeded his share vision.


> Was it with the Totsuka Blade. No it wasn't. Was it after Shared Vision was taken out. Yes it was.


Yes and the Totsuka is even faster than Itachi's regular Susano'o. 
Who took out the shared vision? Itachi and with kunais.


> They are spontaneously generated by Itachi's Dojutsu; how are they not chakra lol.
> 
> This also doesn't matter, regardless of what they are, they have shown physical form when blocking and attacking, which is all that matters.


No they are not generated by Itachi's dojutsu, they are weapons Itachi somehow got a hold of. We have no idea where or how he got a hold of them.They were not connected to Rikudo, so they are probably an Otsutsuki weapon.


> Show me feats from Nagato w/o Shared vision


Again Itachi+ Kunai greater than shared vision. If I told you Itachi would take out the shared vision with simple kunai, you would have laughed, but that is what Itachi does.


> We are shown Obito evading Sasuke and Naruto's attacks. Naruto talks about how he's slowly getting used to Obito's speed and in the same panel we see focus on Sasuke's Choke Tome Sharingan implying he is also getting used to these movements:
> 
> 
> And then they managed to land blows on Obito together right after that forcing him to block:
> ...


I will reread the fight and I am happy to change my mind. From what I recall Naruto combined BM with SM, becoming a lot stronger. Sasuke had Sage chakra added to him, making him a lot stronger too. 

Now if I am wrong I will hold my hands up, but it seems Sage Energy was the answer for both of them.


> I gave you examples of the author using hyperbolic language; so I shouldn't have to give you examples of specifically Zetsu. That's an unfair goal post your setting, I want you to understand this first.


No it is very fair.


> But I will give examples of Zetsu using hyperbolic language too:
> 
> Zetsu says Kirin is un-avoidable; and then proceeds to avoid it.
> 
> ...



Black Zetsu's statement about Tsukiyomi is not definitive, it seems more about Itachi, because we know other MS users do not have genjutsu and ninjutsu in each eye.

The right eye has Itachi's most powerful physical attack and the left eye his most powerful genjutsu.

*If the left eyes Magenkyo posseses the most powerful genjutsu. The right eyes mangekyo posses the most powerful physical. attack.*
This only makes sense in relation to Itachi.

There is no hyperbole about Kirin.

*Just as I thought, which is why it cannot be evaded. The speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second.. it;s faster than sound.

*


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## hbcaptain (Oct 13, 2019)

Group C, I've him at the same level as Minato, so he belongs to the same group.


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## dergeist (Oct 13, 2019)

Your groupings suck, but he belongs in A.


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> It could have been overkill


.
So again do you have proof that it was overkill? And proof that 3 of Itachi's Magatama would be enough?

If you don't have proof, the best you can say is 'maybe' Itachi could do it on his own; not that he 'definitely' could; and i'm very free to disagree with that 'maybe'.



> Amaterasu was said to burn through everything and apart from being absorbed this for the most part is true. The Black core, is made of chakra and so can be burnt by Amaterasu. Amaterasu has even burnt the Bijuu shrouds, though they can be removed.


Amaterasu was also said to be inextinguishable, despite us seeing several people extinguish it. I don't believe these hyperbola, sorry.



> What other jutsu?


ST/BT



> Yes and the Totsuka is even faster than Itachi's regular Susano'o.


Cool i'm not saying he can't blitz him with Totsuka, i'm saying it factually didn't happen before Nagato used CT.



> Who took out the shared vision? Itachi and with kunais.


Cool, Itachi being the one to take out shared vision, doesn't change the fact that he didn't blitz Nagato who had shared vision.

So you can't take Nagato's reaction feats when he had shared vision; and say any character who has inferior reactions feats get blitz'd by the Totsuka Blade or Susanoo; because he didn't have shared vision anymore.



> No they are not generated by Itachi's dojutsu, they are weapons Itachi somehow got a hold of. We have no idea where or how he got a hold of them.They were not connected to Rikudo, so they are probably an Otsutsuki weapon.


Proof....



> I will reread the fight and I am happy to change my mind. From what I recall Naruto combined BM with SM, becoming a lot stronger. Sasuke had Sage chakra added to him, making him a lot stronger too.
> 
> Now if I am wrong I will hold my hands up, but it seems Sage Energy was the answer for both of them.


The focus was not on Sage energy for Sasuke; it was clearly on his eye. You don't have to read the manga, you just have to read the page I linked.




> No it is very fair.


No it's not lol; does someone other then Kishimoto write Zetsu's character? If Kishimoto as an author uses hyperbolic language to describe Jutsu; why the fuck do you think it's fair to ignore this, only when it comes to Zetsu



> Black Zetsu's statement about Tsukiyomi is not definitive, it seems more about Itachi, because we know other MS users do not have genjutsu and ninjutsu in each eye.
> 
> The right eye has Itachi's most powerful physical attack and the left eye his most powerful genjutsu.
> 
> ...


Okay so Totsuka and Yata Mirror are only invincible in relation to Orochimaru and Sasuke; the enemies he was fighting. See I can make up bullshit that isn't present in the text too....



> There is no hyperbole about Kirin.


So Kirin's unavoidable; and Kaguya can't avoid it even with Space-Time Hax



> *Just as I thought, which is why it cannot be evaded. The speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second.. it;s faster than sound.*


Sasuke's hand isn't that fast and is part of the Jutsu

Zetsu also claimed that Amaterasu was inextinguishable despite the fact that Kaguya his mother could clearly extinguish it. So you can add that to the list too


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> .
> So again do you have proof that it was overkill? And proof that 3 of Itachi's Magatama would be enough?
> 
> If you don't have proof, the best you can say is 'maybe' Itachi could do it on his own; not that he 'definitely' could; and i'm very free to disagree with that 'maybe'.


I never said it was a definite, but it certainly seems possible and as I keep saying the black orb would have been a lot smaller with no rock around it.


> Amaterasu was also said to be inextinguishable, despite us seeing several people extinguish it. I don't believe these hyperbola, sorry.


Actually Zetsu says it is *'said to extinguishabl*e.'
However, you need to provide evidence to prove the black orb can resist it not the other way around. We have feats and hype of Amaterasu burning everything including the Jubi. Apart from being absorbed, genuine question is there anything Amaterasu has not burnt? 


> ST/BT


Both would be blocked by the Yata Mirror and he can't use that whilst he has CT


> Cool i'm not saying he can't blitz him with Totsuka, i'm saying it factually didn't happen before Nagato used CT.


However, this was a choice not too. 


> Cool, Itachi being the one to take out shared vision, doesn't change the fact that he didn't blitz Nagato who had shared vision.


He somehow blitzed the shared vision from a blindspot with kunai. Shared vision is never going to be an option against Itachi.


> So you can't take Nagato's reaction feats when he had shared vision; and say any character who has inferior reactions feats get blitz'd by the Totsuka Blade or Susanoo; because he didn't have shared vision anymore.


He still reacted to Bee and KCM Naruto before hand. He is one of the few sensors good enough to sense Amaterasu. 

Deva Pain, who has significantly weaker reactions than Nagato, with the distance in chakra transmission, was reacting and putting up blocks with SM Naruto. He was able to react to him evenly( but lacked the power)


> Proof....


No proof where he got them, but there's lots of proof he found them and attached them to his Susano'o.  Orochimaru was searching for them long before Itachi was ever born. So they existed long before he had MS. 


> The focus was not on Sage energy for Sasuke; it was clearly on his eye. You don't have to read the manga, you just have to read the page I linked.


No I like to see things in context. CS2 and Sage energy are huge powers up. CS2 was supposed to be a 10x increase in power. I am not going to ignore EMS Sasuke being made 10x stronger.


> No it's not lol; does someone other then Kishimoto write Zetsu's character? If Kishimoto as an author uses hyperbolic language to describe Jutsu; why the fuck do you think it's fair to ignore this, only when it comes to Zetsu


Well it's all we have to go by and until it is proven false we cannot dismiss such statements, especially when feats support them.


> Okay so Totsuka and Yata Mirror are only invincible in relation to Orochimaru and Sasuke; the enemies he was fighting. See I can make up bullshit that isn't present in the text too....


Glad to see you admit it is bullshit. That statement can only be applicable to Itachi, because nobody else has Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi.


> So Kirin's unavoidable; and Kaguya can't avoid it even with Space-Time Hax


Nothing has shown Kaguya can teleport in the time it takes to avoid lightning. Lightning speed is 1/3 the speed of light. Not hyperbole for me. Putting up a defence is one thing.


> Sasuke's hand isn't that fast and is part of the Jutsu


I took it as the speed the lightning came down with. Sasuke's hand is obviously not counted, because lots of people can set up counters by the time Sasuke moved his hand. It's a bit like saying handseal speed is including when we judge how fast a jutsu is. 


> Zetsu also claimed that Amaterasu was inextinguishable despite the fact that Kaguya his mother could clearly extinguish it. So you can add that to the list too


Zetsu actually said 'IT IS SAID to inextinguishable.'

Does Kaguya extinguish it? I thought she just absorbed it? Apart from Sasuke, I honestly cannot recall Amaterasu being extinguished.


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## ShinAkuma (Oct 13, 2019)

Itachi wank....

....It's baaaaack.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 13, 2019)

JuicyG always reacts to every Jiraiya thread by making a thread... or any other thread where he Jiraiya was disrespected i.e. the Minato version of this thread.


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> I never said it was a definite, but it certainly seems possible and as I keep saying the black orb would have been a lot smaller with no rock around it.
> .


And I disagree...



> However, you need to provide evidence to prove the black orb can resist it not the other way around. We have feats and hype of Amaterasu burning everything including the Jubi. Apart from being absorbed, genuine question is there anything Amaterasu has not burnt?


No I don't, I said i'm undecided. You are the one making the 'positive' claim that it can burn it; so you need to provide 'evidence'.



> Both would be blocked by the Yata Mirror and he can't use that whilst he has CT


Yata Mirror doesn't have the Feats to suggest it can block CST or BT. 

Proof that he can't use ST/BT after using CT.



> However, this was a choice not too.


Cool i'm not saying he can't blitz him with Totsuka, i'm saying it factually didn't happen before Nagato used CT.



> He somehow blitzed the shared vision from a blindspot with kunai. Shared vision is never going to be an option against Itachi.


B and Naruto were distracting Nagato; so in a 1v1 fight I find it unlikely that Itachi can take out Shared Vision that easily.



> He still reacted to Bee and KCM Naruto before hand. He is one of the few sensors good enough to sense Amaterasu.
> 
> Deva Pain, who has significantly weaker reactions than Nagato, with the distance in chakra transmission, was reacting and putting up blocks with SM Naruto. He was able to react to him evenly( but lacked the power)


Yes this was 'before' shared vision was taken out and therefore irrelevant.

Deva Pain doesn't have an enfeebled physical body like Nagato; and it is therefore also irrelevant



> No proof where he got them, but there's lots of proof he found them and attached them to his Susano'o. Orochimaru was searching for them long before Itachi was ever born. So they existed long before he had MS.


Proof that he found them and attached them to his Susanoo

Orochimaru searching for them isn't proof; as we've seen Uchiha can share the same Mangekyo Abilities. So the fact that they were legendary items before Itachi was born, 'could' simply be due to another Uchiha or Ootsutsuki possessing the same Dojutsu ability as Itachi.



> No I like to see things in context. CS2 and Sage energy are huge powers up. CS2 was supposed to be a 10x increase in power. I am not going to ignore EMS Sasuke being made 10x stronger.


EMS Sasuke wasn't made x10 stronger, at best his Susanoo was. And again the focus wasn't on the CS, it was on his eyesight improving and being able to follow Obito's movements.



> Well it's all we have to go by and until it is proven false we cannot dismiss such statements, especially when feats support them.


Okay so Leaf Whirlwind is invincible and Base-Gai rapes Kaguya. Because it's 'all we have to go by'



> Glad to see you admit it is bullshit. That statement can only be applicable to Itachi, because nobody else has Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi.


The statement about Totsuka and Yata is only applicable to Orochimaru / Sasuke, because nobody else was present to kill Itachi. See how that works.



> Nothing has shown Kaguya can teleport in the time it takes to avoid lightning. Lightning speed is 1/3 the speed of light. Not hyperbole for me. Putting up a defence is one thing.


Kaguya can't teleport away in the time Sasuke lowers his hand?



> I took it as the speed the lightning came down with. Sasuke's hand is obviously not counted, because lots of people can set up counters by the time Sasuke moved his hand. It's a bit like saying handseal speed is including when we judge how fast a jutsu is.


See this is the problem; you are asserting how you 'took' the statements as what is actually 'stated'. But it's not what's actually 'stated' Zetsu says 'the Jutsu' Kirin is unavoidable, not the lightening bolt. Which we know is a bullshit hyperbola, as many people could avoid it reacting to Sasuke lowering his hand.

Now going back to how you 'took' the statement, I agree with how you 'took' it, but this is because we can apply logic and know that when Kishimoto has Zetsu claim the Jutsu is unavoidable what he's really claiming is just that the Lightening Bolt is really fast. The same way when he has Zetsu call Susanoo invincible; he's really just saying it's really solid defense.

It's the same bullshit he did all the time with Gaara too; having his Sand Defense being called absolute back in the Chunin Exams. But is CE Gaara's Sand defense really absolute enough to block Kaguya TSB, fuck no.



> Zetsu actually said 'IT IS SAID to inextinguishable.'
> 
> Does Kaguya extinguish it? I thought she just absorbed it? Apart from Sasuke, I honestly cannot recall Amaterasu being extinguished.


Absorbing the chakra from it is extinguishing it lol. And cool; so he's just throwing out generic hype there even though he knows it can be extinguished lol. Come on man just drop it.


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## Shazam (Oct 13, 2019)

Nearly just as many think Itachi belongs in group A (1 from B) as the more 'rational ' posters who have him in C.. 

Dare say... Itachi is overrated to some extent?


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> And I disagree...


Ok we disagree on this. We both agree on Totsuka blitzing Nagato.


> No I don't, I said i'm undecided. You are the one making the 'positive' claim that it can burn it; so you need to provide 'evidence'.


My positive claim is based on feats and statements. You need to give reasons for a negative claim. What has the black orb shown, to indicate it can resist Amaterasu? What are the feats for the orb?


> Yata Mirror doesn't have the Feats to suggest it can block CST or BT.


It has feats blocking the sword of Kusanagi, which pierced SM Madara. It blocked Hydra, which is physically stronger than Manda, it is obviously more durable than Itachi's Susano'o which blocked  Kirin. It has hype and it's mechanics show why it would block BT and CST.


> Proof that he can't use ST/BT after using CT.


What do you mean after? I am talking about whilst he has a CT in the air, the answer is because both rely on gravity. He can hardly pull something to him or push it away, when CT is pulling everything towards it. 


> Cool i'm not saying he can't blitz him with Totsuka, i'm saying it factually didn't happen before Nagato used CT.


Ok


> B and Naruto were distracting Nagato; so in a 1v1 fight I find it unlikely that Itachi can take out Shared Vision that easily.


That's the whole point of shared vision so things like that don't happen. Bee tried a blind side attack, but it did not work for him.
Itachi bent kunai from shared vision's blind spot straight into the eyes. It sounds pretty impossible. He also saw two creatures supposed to be invisible.


> Yes this was 'before' shared vision was taken out and therefore irrelevant.
> 
> Deva Pain doesn't have an enfeebled physical body like Nagato; and it is therefore also irrelevant


No it is very relevant to reaction speed. Nagato does not have to move to react with ST, chakra absorption or Asura path. He has a lot of options, but Totsuka was too fast for him to even try. 


> Proof that he found them and attached them to his Susanoo
> 
> Orochimaru searching for them isn't proof; as we've seen Uchiha can share the same Mangekyo Abilities. So the fact that they were legendary items before Itachi was born, 'could' simply be due to another Uchiha or Ootsutsuki possessing the same Dojutsu ability as Itachi.


Madara was the first Uchiha to awaken the MS so no Uchiha had it before him. Zetsu, had been watching the entirety of shinobi history was shocked Itachi had them as well. So they clearly have nothing to do with the Uchiha or MS. They are just incredibly powerful weapons, which Itachi happened to find.


> EMS Sasuke wasn't made x10 stronger, at best his Susanoo was. And again the focus wasn't on the CS, it was on his eyesight improving and being able to follow Obito's movements.


Whilst Sage chakra was flowing through him. Was there any comment about his eyesight improving and now being able to see Obito? There usually is. If so provide proof. 


> Okay so Leaf Whirlwind is invincible and Base-Gai rapes Kaguya. Because it's 'all we have to go by'


Does the manga support this?


> The statement about Totsuka and Yata is only applicable to Orochimaru / Sasuke, because nobody else was present to kill Itachi. See how that works.


No the statement about Totsuka was Itachi is completely invincible. However, the statement about Amaterasu/Tsukiyomi has no context about what it is the strongest of. It could mean the strongest ninjutsu in the world, but could also mean Itachi's strongest ninjutsu. We are given no context. 


> Kaguya can't teleport away in the time Sasuke lowers his hand?


Sasuke lowering his hand is obviously not included.


> See this is the problem; you are asserting how you 'took' the statements as what is actually 'stated'. But it's not what's actually 'stated' Zetsu says 'the Jutsu' Kirin is unavoidable, not the lightening bolt. Which we know is a bullshit hyperbola, as many people could avoid it reacting to Sasuke lowering his hand.
> 
> Now going back to how you 'took' the statement, I agree with how you 'took' it, but this is because we can apply logic and know that when Kishimoto has Zetsu claim the Jutsu is unavoidable what he's really claiming is just that the Lightening Bolt is really fast. The same way when he has Zetsu call Susanoo invincible; he's really just saying it's really solid defense.
> 
> ...


No I honestly don't think Sasuke' hand coming down has anything to do with what Zetsu was speaking about. First of all he had no idea that Sasuke needed to bring his hand down. Hand signs are not countered as part of any jutsu. You know this. Amaterasu sometimes needs handsigns to build up the chakra. When we talk about the speed of jutsu, we rarely take into account the preparation needed for it. When we talk about the speed of chidori, nobody takes into account the handseals.

When we mention how fast Gaara's sand, nobody mentions the hand movement. It is about the lighting reaching the ground period and lightning especially lightning of that power, which can reach up to half the speed of light.

No absorbing the chakra is not extinguishing it at least not in Kishimoto's mind. Have you forgotten Jiraiya seals the jutsu away? Absorption is something very different from extinguishing it. Hence why he uses different words.


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> My positive claim is based on feats and statements. You need to give reasons for a negative claim. What has the black orb shown, to indicate it can resist Amaterasu? What are the feats for the orb?
> .


It's not based on 'feats' as Amaterasu has nowhere near the 'feats' to support it can burn through anything
It's based on a hyperbolic statement from Zetsu, which we know is false.

So unless you got anything else, we'll have to agree to disagree



> It has feats blocking the sword of Kusanagi, which pierced SM Madara. It blocked Hydra, which is physically stronger than Manda, it is obviously more durable than Itachi's Susano'o which blocked Kirin. It has hype and it's mechanics show why it would block BT and CST.


Madara wasn't pierced by the sword his Shadow Merged the Sword into his body. Blocking the Sword isn't some amazing feat B did so casually with his basic swords

Both Hydra and Kirin are far bellow CST in strength; so no it doesn't have anything that shows that



> What do you mean after? I am talking about whilst he has a CT in the air, the answer is because both rely on gravity. He can hardly pull something to him or push it away, when CT is pulling everything towards it.


So why can't he blast Itachi with CST towards CT.



> That's the whole point of shared vision so things like that don't happen. Bee tried a blind side attack, but it did not work for him.
> Itachi bent kunai from shared vision's blind spot straight into the eyes. It sounds pretty impossible. He also saw two creatures supposed to be invisible.


Cool, this doesn't change the fact that if B and Naruto weren't there, Itachi would need to pull off his Kunai trick while at the same time dealing with attacks from Nagato himself. It would obviously be more difficult



> No it is very relevant to reaction speed. Nagato does not have to move to react with ST, chakra absorption or Asura path. He has a lot of options, but Totsuka was too fast for him to even try.


Yes but his reaction speed hasn't been shown to be high w/o shared vision....



> Madara was the first Uchiha to awaken the MS so no Uchiha had it before him. Zetsu, had been watching the entirety of shinobi history was shocked Itachi had them as well. So they clearly have nothing to do with the Uchiha or MS. They are just incredibly powerful weapons, which Itachi happened to find.


Looking even if you discount the Uchiha; you have no proof another Otsutsuki didn't have a Susanoo like Itachi's



> Whilst Sage chakra was flowing through him. Was there any comment about his eyesight improving and now being able to see Obito? There usually is. If so provide proof.


We don't need a comment we see him improving on the page; even if you want to say it was partially due to Sage Chakra flowing through him (though it's only flowing through Susanoo); that still doesn't change the fact that we see him improve on panel



> Does the manga support this?


The manga doesn't support Zetsu's comment about the weapons being invincible ether



> No the statement about Totsuka was Itachi is completely invincible. However, the statement about Amaterasu/Tsukiyomi has no context about what it is the strongest of. It could mean the strongest ninjutsu in the world, but could also mean Itachi's strongest ninjutsu. We are given no context.


However, the statement about Totsuka and Yata mirror has no context about what it is invincible of. It could mean he's invincible to everything in the world, but it could mean he's only invincible against those opponents he was currently facing.

I can do this all day



> Sasuke lowering his hand is obviously not included.


Is it a part of the Jutsu's mechanic Yes or Are you going lie and say it's not, and I'm going to end this conversation due to sheer bias



> No I honestly don't think Sasuke' hand coming down has anything to do with what Zetsu was speaking about. First of all he had no idea that Sasuke needed to bring his hand down. Hand signs are not countered as part of any jutsu. You know this. Amaterasu sometimes needs handsigns to build up the chakra. When we talk about the speed of jutsu, we rarely take into account the preparation needed for it. When we talk about the speed of chidori, nobody takes into account the handseals.
> .


Again I don't care what you 'think' Zetsu is talking about; what matters is what he said, he 'said' the Jutsu is unavoidable; which we know is hyperbolic. The fact that he later adds context doesn't change the fact that his initial statement was a bullshit hyperbola.



> No absorbing the chakra is not extinguishing it at least not in Kishimoto's mind. Have you forgotten Jiraiya seals the jutsu away? Absorption is something very different from extinguishing it. Hence why he uses different words



*extinguish*

ex·tin·guish | \ ik-ˈstiŋ-(g)wish  \
extinguished; extinguishing; extinguishes
*Definition of extinguish*




(2): to reduce to silence or ineffectiveness
b: to cause to cease burning : 

Does absorbing the chakra from the flames, cause them to cease to burn? Does absorbing the chakra from the flames reduce them to ineffective?

If Yes, then it was extinguished by Kaguya; if no your a liar and i'm ending the conversation.


Sorry I have to take this approach with you, but you are being highly unreasonable; I've shown you the author uses hyperbola, when hyping up Jutsu; for some reason you don't accept this, and say it has to be Zetsu. I show you multiple statements from Zetsu that are hyperbolic; and you are still trying to ignore this because you 'took' them another way. I don't care how you 'took' these statements, the words on the page are a hyperbola PERIOD


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## Kisaitaparadise (Oct 13, 2019)

Group C


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> It's not based on 'feats' as Amaterasu has nowhere near the 'feats' to support it can burn through anything
> It's based on a hyperbolic statement from Zetsu, which we know is false.
> 
> So unless you got anything else, we'll have to agree to disagree


It has burnt fire, water and even the Jubi. Unless you think the black orb is tougher than the Jubi, then it burns the black orb too.


> Madara wasn't pierced by the sword his Shadow Merged the Sword into his body. Blocking the Sword isn't some amazing feat B did so casually with his basic swords


Wasn't he priced. It looked like the sword went through his arm.


> Both Hydra and Kirin are far bellow CST in strength; so no it doesn't have anything that shows that


Kirin is exceptionally powerful in energy, it's calculations would probably put it above CST. The Hydra is compared to a Biju, the 8 tails had the strength to break CT.
Not saying the Hydra has the strength of 8 tails, but Yata blocked it with ease. The mechanics also hint it would have no problem. Again feats and hypes imply it has no problem.


> So why can't he blast Itachi with CST towards CT.


He could try, but Itachi would have Yata mirror up to protect him. That would make sense.


> Cool, this doesn't change the fact that if B and Naruto weren't there, Itachi would need to pull off his Kunai trick while at the same time dealing with attacks from Nagato himself. It would obviously be more difficult


KB sorts this problem out. KBs which EMS Sasuke and SM Kabuto cannot notice being formed or Itachi switching places with them.


> Yes but his reaction speed hasn't been shown to be high w/o shared vision....


Yes it has and logically has to be higher than Deva Pain. Though logically it should be much higher and he shows this.


> Looking even if you discount the Uchiha; you have no proof another Otsutsuki didn't have a Susanoo like Itachi's


I wouldn't be surprised if it was an Otsutsuki weapon. That is what makes though most sense and it puts the weapons above anyway below RS. I have always said that is a logical limit.

Though if we wank the weapons, they could be even above Kaguya level, being Otsutsuki weapons. I don't do that. I don't even argue that Totsuka would work on Madara/Hashirama, though I think they are Otsutsuki weapons.


> We don't need a comment we see him improving on the page; even if you want to say it was partially due to Sage Chakra flowing through him (though it's only flowing through Susanoo); that still doesn't change the fact that we see him improve on panel


Yes with Sage chakra, later on he gets Hashirama chakra and RS chakra. Prior to that, he has shown nothing to suggest he was improving.


> The manga doesn't support Zetsu's comment about the weapons being invincible ether


They worked as said on everything we saw.


> However, the statement about Totsuka and Yata mirror has no context about what it is invincible of. It could mean he's invincible to everything in the world, but it could mean he's only invincible against those opponents he was currently facing.
> 
> I can do this all day


Nope you are wrong. It has context. It says Itachi is completely invincible. The subject is Itachi and he is invincible. Try it out. Go to one of your friends with no knowledge of Naruto.

Ask them about the three statements.

*No mistake. That shield is another spirit weapon. It is called the Yata Mirror and is said to deflect all things so combined with the Totsuka blade. He's invincible.

If the left eye mangekyo posses the most powerful genjutsu, the right eye mangekyo possess the most powerful physical attack.*


> Is it a part of the Jutsu's mechanic Yes or Are you going lie and say it's not, and I'm going to end this conversation due to sheer bias


Jutsu mechanics have nothing to do with the speed. Or else we should count Sasuke having to fire katon into the atmosphere wait for the rain clouds to form etc. Then Kirin becomes one of the slowest jutsu.

This is why context is important and not just looking at quotes in isolation.

Black Zetsu has already realised Sasuke had to fire the katons into the air, run outside to take advantage of Amaterasu, use his chakra to control the lightning etc. He knows all this and does not consider it part of the jutsu.

Nor has Sasuke yet to show he needs to bring his hand down for the lightning to come down.

Zetsu is talking purely about the speed of Kirin once it is launched.

The same way when they talk about Amaterasu, they do not talk about the chakra build up or the handsigns used. Or else they would be no talk of it being unavoidable.


> Again I don't care what you 'think' Zetsu is talking about; what matters is what he said, he 'said' the Jutsu is unavoidable; which we know is hyperbolic. The fact that he later adds context doesn't change the fact that his initial statement was a bullshit hyperbola.


No you are desperate to make it hyperbole. Give me another example of the mechanics needed to use a jutsu, being part of it's speed? Hand seals are never countered as the speed of the jutsu, but the preparations needed to cast the jutsu.

When people talk about how fast FRS, nobody takes into account the time Naruto takes to form it, or the time the Biju takes to form the Biju bomb. We always talk about the speed of the actual attack.

We do mention that attacks, which take a long time can be stopped.


> *extinguish*
> 
> ex·tin·guish | \ ik-ˈstiŋ-(g)wish  \
> extinguished; extinguishing; extinguishes
> ...


*absorb something to take in and keep heat, light, energy, etc. instead of reflecting it*

For Kishimoto he seems to use this definition of extiguish.

*Cause (a fire or light) to cease to burn or shine.*

I admit absorption does that too, but Kishimoto has never regarded the two as the same.

Jiraiya can be said to have 'extinguished' the flames too, but this is why I said context is important. Extinguish in this context means to turn off the flames. Absorption is no different than what Jiraiya did.

Yes technically it is the same thing, but it is not in the ninja world. Jiraiya himself must have told Kakashi the flames are inextinguishable.

Blame Kishimoto, but sealing or absorbing the flames are different from extinguishing them according to him. This goes back to the 150th chapter. Yet Naruto, Kakashi and Sasuke keep saying the same things.



> Sorry I have to take this approach with you, but you are being highly unreasonable; I've shown you the author uses hyperbola, when hyping up Jutsu; for some reason you don't accept this, and say it has to be Zetsu. I show you multiple statements from Zetsu that are hyperbolic; and you are still trying to ignore this because you 'took' them another way. I don't care how you 'took' these statements, the words on the page are a hyperbola PERIOD


We will have to agree to disagree. I take things in context and only reject them when they have been shown to be false.
When attention is drawn to things, I don't immediately dismiss it thinking I know best. I do take statements with a pinch of salt and examine who said it and why. However, I also look at authors intent and the nature of the weapons. Zetsu's statement does not mean Itachi is beating Kaguya/Hagaroma. However, when I look at Zetsu's knowledge, the authors intent and feats, then I don't see other ninjas dealing with it.

Kishimoto has shown to bring back things we were thought were discarded like sharingan and byakugan having the same origin, Shukaku being a sand priest, Hashirama being a fairy tale, or Haku's speed.

He had the chance to reject a lot of things, but he doubled down on Itachi's weapons.

He also had the chance to dehype Itachi, but he goes way over the top.

_Naruto-_*Let me tell you something your big bro said to me.
*
_Sauske _*I learned not from Itachi's words, but his life himself.
*
Sasuke* I feel that he was the true Hokage.
*
Naruto *You don't understand Itachi's life path at all.
*
Sasuke* I was the one who was always jealous of you. You had a strength I did not have. You were always walking in front of me. Just like my late brother. 
*
That's the final fight of the manga and it is about Itachi. 

We will agree to disagree, but for me too many statements, feats and the general portrayal puts Itachi well above the other tiers.


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## MShadows (Oct 13, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Nearly just as many think Itachi belongs in group A (1 from B) as the more 'rational ' posters who have him in C..
> 
> Dare say... Itachi is overrated to some extent?


Whoever believes that Itachi belongs in group B or even worse, group A, is either a troll or has a very serious case of extreme bias.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> It has burnt fire, water and even the Jubi. Unless you think the black orb is tougher than the Jubi, then it burns the black orb too.
> 
> Wasn't he priced. It looked like the sword went through his arm.
> 
> ...


Look if your going to believe a Zetsu hyperbola; you and I have nothing to discuss; I see why you think Itachi ranks where he does (in-fact surprised you don’t have him higher); but I don’t agree with taking Jutsu hyperbola seriously as we end up with bullshit like Leaf Whirlwind being able to 1 shot Kaguya.

And I can’t invest anymore of my time discussing a topic with someone who does as we will never agree period. And I won’t invest any time discussing Itachi with you in the future


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look if your going to believe a Zetsu hyperbola; you and I have nothing to discuss; I see why you think Itachi ranks where he does (in-fact surprised you don’t have him higher); but I don’t agree with taking Jutsu hyperbola seriously as we end up with bullshit like Leaf Whirlwind being able to 1 shot Kaguya.
> 
> And I can’t invest anymore of my time discussing a topic with someone who does as we will never agree period. And I won’t invest any time discussing Itachi with you in the future


Yes there is no point arguing over it constantly.

For the record it is not just Zetsu's statements that make me place Itachi so highly. He has the feats and the manga portrayal. It is mostly the portrayal and feats that sway me. You will probably disagree, but 'humble' Itachi compares himself with Madara/Naruto and Kabuto. Thinking he was all powerful, unstoppable and can do anything. Also the emergence of the Rikudo treasures, which casually one shot 8 tails, made me believe Itachi's items would at least be on that level.

We will agree to disagree.


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Yes there is no point arguing over it constantly.
> 
> For the record it is not just Zetsu's statements that make me place Itachi so highly. He has the feats and the manga portrayal. It is mostly the portrayal and feats that sway me. You will probably disagree, but 'humble' Itachi compares himself with Madara/Naruto and Kabuto. Thinking he was all powerful, unstoppable and can do anything. Also the emergence of the Rikudo treasures, which casually one shot 8 tails, made me believe Itachi's items would at least be on that level.
> 
> We will agree to disagree.


If you want to discuss Itachi outside the Totsuka. Blade or Mirror I’m fine with it, but I just don’t agree with them being on par with Rikudo Treasures or being unstoppable. If Kishi / Kodachi brings them back in Boruto or further Naruto Media (that’s not filler) I’ll reconsider based on what I see, but so far they don’t have the ‘Feats’ for me to believe that Totsuka is unstoppable and Yata Mirror can block anything.

As far as Itachi portrayal I don’t see anything that places him on par with Madara or Kabuto; both have abilities far beyond his own. Itachi strongest ability is V4 Susanoo, which Madara having P-Susanoo and P-Susanoo Kyuubi Armament, puts him well beyond that. Kabuto was able to summon and wield Itachi freely as his pawn (if not for sheer luck on the part of Koto crow); so I can’t see him a superior to someone who can wield the exact same power as him + the power of other legendary Ninja and his own formidable powers as well.


KCM Naruto I think is on the same ‘level’ as Healthy / Edo Itachi; and I’m undecided on whether Nagato is on that same ‘level’ or one step above it. Due to his weakness in being physically enfeebled and needing to rely on shared vision. Though I think speculatively healthy Nagato would definitely be a step above; though it’s hard to know if said Nagato ever existed, because we don’t know prior to the Hanzo battle if he could use things like CT/CST or not.

I also place him on the same level as Base
Minato when Healthy / Edo. So I think I give him plenty of credit; just can’t see him being beyond this level as we start getting into things like BM or BSM level of power I don’t think he can compete with.


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If you want to discuss Itachi outside the Totsuka. Blade or Mirror I’m fine with it, but I just don’t agree with them being on par with Rikudo Treasures or being unstoppable. If Kishi / Kodachi brings them back in Boruto or further Naruto Media (that’s not filler) I’ll reconsider based on what I see, but so far they don’t have the ‘Feats’ for me to believe that Totsuka is unstoppable and Yata Mirror can block anything.


I have them at least on that level, but we can move on.


> As far as Itachi portrayal I don’t see anything that places him on par with Madara or Kabuto; both have abilities far beyond his own. Itachi strongest ability is V4 Susanoo, which Madara having P-Susanoo and P-Susanoo Kyuubi Armament, puts him well beyond that. Kabuto was able to summon and wield Itachi freely as his pawn (if not for sheer luck on the part of Koto crow); so I can’t see him a superior to someone who can wield the exact same power as him + the power of other legendary Ninja and his own formidable powers as well.


Kabuto couldn't wield Madara, he seems to have been able to break out, whilst Itachi broke out as well. Luck or not. Plus Edos are weaker.

Living Itachi not only would be stronger, but had Koto charged and ready to use himself. Itachi programmed Amaterasu for Obito. He could easily have programmed a Koto for Obito to kill himself, but keep Sasuke on the straight and narrow was his main concern.

I am about to go to bed, but tomorrow I can post you all the threads of Itachi comparing himself to Kabuto and Madara ie thinking he was unstoppable etc.


> KCM Naruto I think is on the same ‘level’ as Healthy / Edo Itachi; and I’m undecided on whether Nagato is on that same ‘level’ or one step above it. Due to his weakness in being physically enfeebled and needing to rely on shared vision. Though I think speculatively healthy Nagato would definitely be a step above; though it’s hard to know if said Nagato ever existed, because we don’t know prior to the Hanzo battle if he could use things like CT/CST or not.


The thing is Edo Nagato and Edo Itachi are not at full strength. Edos are weaker, so they actually would be much stronger normally.

Nagato trashed KCM Naruto quickly and there was nothing Naruto could do about it. He is at least a tier above. As for Itachi, he was handling Nagato with ease too. The only jutsu, which Nagato had and might give Itachi any trouble was CT. Where as we know for a fact Totsuka ends Nagato as would Tsukiyomi. 

So Itachi has more ways to finish the fight, can possibly counter CT and was superior before they used their big guns.

It was after seeing Edo Rinnegan Madara be drastically inferior to blind living Madara do you begin to see the difference in Edos and living shinobi. So Nagato and Itachi would be a lot stronger if they were alive.


> I also place him on the same level as Base
> Minato when Healthy / Edo. So I think I give him plenty of credit; just can’t see him being beyond this level as we start getting into things like BM or BSM level of power I don’t think he can compete with.


He is clearly above Base Minato. I like Minato, but everything we know of him places him below MS Sasuke and SM Naruto. 14 year old Bee was countering him. 

BSM Naruto is too much for Itachi, but even BM Naruto is in risk of being hit with Tsukiyomi. I won't even get into the Totsuka.

I have also yet to bring up the Izanagi, which Itachi should be able to use a last resort. 

We can then look at how 3T Itachi defeated Orochimaru and took away his ability to use jutsu, for a period of time at least. 

For me Itachi/Nagato are above any other non Indra/Asura reincarnation. They have the feats and the hype. 

Minato is stalemating Ay and a young Bee, who got much better. Nagato decimated KCM Naruto (better than Ay in virtually every way except physical strength) and Adult Bee, much older and better. He didn't just stalemate these two, he decimated them. We then find out this was an Edo weaker version.

Itachi then competed at, the worst, at the worst on par with Nagato. This is an Edo Itachi, who is weaker too. 

He then led and was shown to be superior to EMS Sasuke at least during the Kabuto fight. EMS Sasuke>>MS Sasuke=SM Naruto>Minato.

SM Kabuto if he is allowed prep with his Edo Tensei is  better and on at least a couple of tiers above, but no other ninja prior to BSM Naruto or Sage EMS Sasuke come close. By hype Hiruzen is could be on this level with Itachi and Nagato too.
SM Kabuto alone is weaker.


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> I have them at least on that level, but we can move on.
> 
> Kabuto couldn't wield Madara, he seems to have been able to break out, whilst Itachi broke out as well. Luck or not. Plus Edos are weaker.
> .


I think your missing the point. Under normal conditions Kabuto has the power of Edo-Itachi under his control; so I don't see how Itachi can be stronger then Kabuto + Edo-Itachi + Other Edos.



> Living Itachi not only would be stronger, but had Koto charged and ready to use himself. Itachi programmed Amaterasu for Obito. He could easily have programmed a Koto for Obito to kill himself, but keep Sasuke on the straight and narrow was his main concern.


Koto wasn't charged when Itachi was alive; that's the whole reason he put the crow in Naruto, instead of using it himself. He states this in Ch 550, when he explains the reason he gave the Eye and Crow to Naruto.

So no Itachi can't use Koto in battle; he could only prep it as a trap.



> The thing is Edo Nagato and Edo Itachi are not at full strength. Edos are weaker, so they actually would be much stronger normally.


We were told that the Edos came back at close to full strength this time; so while I agree they were weaker, I don't think they would be 'much' stronger normally



> Nagato trashed KCM Naruto quickly and there was nothing Naruto could do about it.


KCM-Naruto had his power split at the time between himself and several other clones; so he was far from full power. KCM-Naruto also continued to gain experience with that mode and experience in general as the WA went on; so at KCM-Naruto's peak he was better then in the Nagato fight.



> As for Itachi, he was handling Nagato with ease too. The only jutsu, which Nagato had and might give Itachi any trouble was CT. Where as we know for a fact Totsuka ends Nagato as would Tsukiyomi.


Well yeah because you believe Zetsu's 'hyberbolic' statement. I think there are plenty of things Nagato can do that 'might' work against Itachi, because I don't believe that statement. I also don't believe Tsukuyomi would work on Nagato; due to Rinnegan countering it, which is why Itachi didn't even attempt Tskuyomi in the manga against Nagato.



> It was after seeing Edo Rinnegan Madara be drastically inferior to blind living Madara do you begin to see the difference in Edos and living shinobi. So Nagato and Itachi would be a lot stronger if they were alive.


I don't think Edo Rinnegan Madara was 'drastically' inferior to Blind Madara...



> He is clearly above Base Minato. I like Minato, but everything we know of him places him below MS Sasuke and SM Naruto. 14 year old Bee was countering him.


I don't agree Minato is bellow these two; I don't think these 2 would have been able to beat Teen-B and Ei4 ether.



> Minato is stalemating Ay and a young Bee, who got much better. Nagato decimated KCM Naruto (better than Ay in virtually every way except physical strength) and Adult Bee, much older and better. He didn't just stalemate these two, he decimated them. We then find out this was an Edo weaker version.


Dude this is heavily dishonest statement that makes me not take your seriously with this Itachi stuff. To say he decimated B and Naruto is crazy; considering he and KCM-Naruto had an equal Taijutsu scuffle and so did he and B after this; and even with Nagato's support he didn't beat ether B or Naruto, prior to being Koto'd; so there is no way you can justify the idea that he 'decimated' B and Naruto.


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## Reddan (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I think your missing the point. Under normal conditions Kabuto has the power of Edo-Itachi under his control; so I don't see how Itachi can be stronger then Kabuto + Edo-Itachi + Other Edos.


I addressed this Kabuto with Edo Tensei's is a couple of tiers above.


> Koto wasn't charged when Itachi was alive; that's the whole reason he put the crow in Naruto, instead of using it himself. He states this in Ch 550, when he explains the reason he gave the Eye and Crow to Naruto.
> 
> So no Itachi can't use Koto in battle; he could only prep it as a trap.


You are right, but this shows what Itachi's priorities were. He could have prepped it easily to make Obito turn good or commit suicide etc. Instead he only cared more about Sasuke and trusted Sasuke to finish Obito.


> We were told that the Edos came back at close to full strength this time; so while I agree they were weaker, I don't think they would be 'much' stronger normally


Kabuto said that and I would have taken him at this word, but feats and then Madara's statements show him to be wrong. The fina nail in the coffin is Madara himself.

However, the Hokages WERE brought back close to full strength, because Orochimaru improved the jutsu further with Hashirama's cells and Sage energy.

Edo Rinnegan Madara was beaten and restrained by Edo Hashirama. The same deity gates restraining the Jubi had him in place. He gets revived and he instantly breaks out and controls Hashirama with the black rods. Things he stood no chance of doing before. The gap is huge. Obviously Madara is a freakish power, but it shows the difference in power levels the Edos were brought back.


> KCM-Naruto had his power split at the time between himself and several other clones; so he was far from full power. KCM-Naruto also continued to gain experience with that mode and experience in general as the WA went on; so at KCM-Naruto's peak he was better then in the Nagato fight.


Not by much, he had already shown most his best jutsu. 

Also let's show how bias you are being. You put the likes of Muu on the same tier as Itachi.

How well did Muu and Sandaime Raikage do against KCM Naruto with a just a little bit of help? They were defeated in seconds.

3T Itachi on the other hand held his own against KCM Naruto and dodged blind side attacks from Killerbee. 

This is a Killler Bee, much strong than the one Minato fought. He has Samehada, the most powerful of the 7 blades, he is more experienced and MUCH stronger. 

3T Itach lasting against them is already more impressive than Sandaime Raikage and Muu.


> Well yeah because you believe Zetsu's 'hyberbolic' statement. I think there are plenty of things Nagato can do that 'might' work against Itachi, because I don't believe that statement. I also don't believe Tsukuyomi would work on Nagato; due to Rinnegan countering it, which is why Itachi didn't even attempt Tskuyomi in the manga against Nagato.


Itachi never needed it and why would Rinnegan counter it? A master with a stone is better than a novice with a shuriken. Naruto is confident Tsukiyomi would end Bee, perfect Jinchuriki. 


> I don't think Edo Rinnegan Madara was 'drastically' inferior to Blind Madara...


He was go back and look at the panels. Edo Rinnegan Madara lost to Edo Hashirama. He was trapped and held down by the deity gates. Sai was about to seal him.

Blind Madara is brought back and he effortlessly breaks out, trashes Hashirama with his control of the rods, something he could not do before. I repeat it was a massive gap. I did not remember it being so huge.


> I don't agree Minato is bellow these two; I don't think these 2 would have been able to beat Teen-B and Ei4 ether.


This is your bias showing. We have two statements saying they were on Minato's level or better. We know SM Naruto has better reactions than Minato and we see Sasuk demonstrating the same thing. 

However, this is about Itachi. Itachi fought a significantly stronger B and a much stronger ninja than Ay, and he held them off at the same time in close quarters without the MS. This is 3T Itachi.

I meant to mention it in the Kakashi thread, but MS actually improves reflexes and reactions, so Edo Itachi was not even fighting at his full speed and Edo's are weaker. 


> Dude this is heavily dishonest statement that makes me not take your seriously with this Itachi stuff. To say he decimated B and Naruto is crazy; considering he and KCM-Naruto had an equal Taijutsu scuffle and so did he and B after this; and even with Nagato's support he didn't beat ether B or Naruto, prior to being Koto'd; so there is no way you can justify the idea that he 'decimated' B and Naruto.


Maybe I was tired and did not make it clear.

NAGATO decimated Bee and KCM Naruto. Absolutely destroyed the both of them.
MS Itachi then fought Nagato evenly.

3T Itachi had held off KCM Naruto and dodged attacks from Samehada Bee.

When he fought Samehada Bee, if I remember correct someone you agree is above Ay, he was trouncing him and had to hold back. 

I am rereading the manga and right from the start Kakashi tells Naruto a ninja should never show his back. Madara boast about never showing his back, SM Jiraiya is confident when he gets to Pain's back (sadly he did not know about shared vision) etc. Itachi gets behind Bee and has to warn him, that he is there. He puts Bee in a genjutsu and if he had used a faster attack could have finished Bee there. This is 3T Itachi.

How about we compare how Sandaime Raikage and Muu did in similar situations? MS is a boost in terms of reaction speed and all Edos were weaker, and further from their primes than the Hokages. 

So by feats we have 3T Itachi> Orochimar
3T Itachi> Deidara
3T Itachi> IA Naruto
3T Itachi> Samehada Bee
3T Itachi able to stalemate Samehada Bee and KCM Naruto, even if only for a little while it is much better than Muu or Sandaime Raikage.

MS Itachi> Nagato in my opinion. 

Not to mention the fight confirms MS sharingan can see invisible things like the chameleon and Hell summon. 

MS Itachi also has the strength and speed to intercept and block a SM user. Deva Realm got absolutely smashed. MS Itachi can KB feint an EMS user and a SM user. 

So even with Totsuka having just manga feats and YATA just being better than his Susano'o (which blocked Kirin, we don't know stage) Itachi is already above Minato/Tobirama and on the tier with Nagato.


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## Symmetry (Oct 14, 2019)

Group c, Unsure if it’s above or below Minato though. Although the groups in general are kinda whack such as putting SM Jman above Orochimaru with edos.


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

Reddan said:


> I addressed this Kabuto with Edo Tensei's is a couple of tiers above.
> .


Okay



> You are right, but this shows what Itachi's priorities were. He could have prepped it easily to make Obito turn good or commit suicide etc. Instead he only cared more about Sasuke and trusted Sasuke to finish Obito.


Well considering that Itachi failed to actually hit his intended Target Sasuke; I have doubts about whether Itachi would have ever succeeded in using the Crow this way; and he certainly couldn't use 'Koto' in battle.



> Kabuto said that and I would have taken him at this word, but feats and then Madara's statements show him to be wrong. The fina nail in the coffin is Madara himself.
> 
> However, the Hokages WERE brought back close to full strength, because Orochimaru improved the jutsu further with Hashirama's cells and Sage energy.


No Tobirama also said that; the inventor of the Technique.

Kabuto also had Hashirama's cells and was a better Sage then Orochimaru.



> Edo Rinnegan Madara was beaten and restrained by Edo Hashirama. The same deity gates restraining the Jubi had him in place. He gets revived and he instantly breaks out and controls Hashirama with the black rods. Things he stood no chance of doing before. The gap is huge. Obviously Madara is a freakish power, but it shows the difference in power levels the Edos were brought back.


This is most likely due to Gedo Rinnei Tensei restoring Madara's life and chakra, allowing him to break free; and assume a great control over Hashirama.



> Not by much, he had already shown most his best jutsu.


His Chakra was split into at least 12; that's a-lot.



> How well did Muu and Sandaime Raikage do against KCM Naruto with a just a little bit of help? They were defeated in seconds.
> 
> 3
> 3T Itach lasting against them is already more impressive than Sandaime Raikage and Muu.


I wouldn't call having help from a Kage 'just a little bit of help'; Mu had also just fought another Kage (Onoki); and Naruto didn't actually 'Beat' Mu.

In the case of Ei3, he actually shrugged off everything KCM-Naruto did to him, including FRS, which is more impressive then 3T Itachi; and Naruto only won through turning his attack back at him which he accomplished due to Dodai, Temari's Squad, and Hachibi's knowledge, which again I wouldn't call a 'just a little bit of help'. Ei3 also didn't have the Amber-Jar (& seemingly wasn't able to use his Black Lightening).



> T Itachi on the other hand held his own against KCM Naruto and dodged blind side attacks from Killerbee.
> 
> This is a Killler Bee, much strong than the one Minato fought. He has Samehada, the most powerful of the 7 blades, he is more experienced and MUCH stronger.


I don't find 3T Itachi swapping hands with KCM-Naruto and B that impressive; at best it shows he is on the same 'level' speed was as KCM-Naruto (less 'Shunshin') though, it's possible even that is not the case because KCM-Naruto was just laxly talking to him. The fact that later Base-B took Itachi on in CQC.



> Itachi never needed it and why would Rinnegan counter it? A master with a stone is better than a novice with a shuriken. Naruto is confident Tsukiyomi would end Bee, perfect Jinchuriki.


Just having Rinnegan allowed Sasuke to counter Mugen Tsukuyomi from Madara, which is a 'FAR' more powerful Genjutsu then anything Sasuke has shown and Madara has far more mastery of 'Genjutsu' then Sasuke; and the power of the Juubi.

Also ignoring that Nagato can avoid eye contact through shared vision.

If Tsukuyomi would have worked Itachi would have used it.



> This is your bias showing. We have two statements saying they were on Minato's level or better. We know SM Naruto has better reactions than Minato and we see Sasuk demonstrating the same thing.


No we don't



> I meant to mention it in the Kakashi thread, but MS actually improves reflexes and reactions, so Edo Itachi was not even fighting at his full speed and Edo's are weaker.


No it doesn't only Choke Tome does 



> MS Itachi then fought Nagato evenly.


MS Itachi never fought Nagato evenly, because he never fought Nagato 1v1



> So by feats we have 3T Itachi> Orochimar


So your one of those people that believe 3T Itachi beat Orochimaru by cutting off his hand even though he laughs off those injuries later in the Manga. Come on man...



> Not to mention the fight confirms MS sharingan can see invisible things like the chameleon and Hell summon.


The Chameleon snuck up on Itachi too; so....



> MS Itachi also has the strength and speed to intercept and block a SM user. Deva Realm got absolutely smashed. MS Itachi can KB feint an EMS user and a SM user.


A SM user who doesn't have any notable feats of strength... Kabuto's physical strength is likely lower then Jiraiya's and Naruto's so in SM he's also lower.

But I don't see what this prove about 'level' anyway, I don't doubt Itachi's CQC ability being very high. 



> So even with Totsuka having just manga feats and YATA just being better than his Susano'o (which blocked Kirin, we don't know stage) Itachi is already above Minato/Tobirama and on the tier with Nagato.


I fail to see this correlation between these two things....

Minato and Tobirama are know for their speed; it's their speed that Itachi needs to overcome. If he can't hit them with Totsuka blade, his odds of winning are very low with Susanoo; as even if you don't believe they can warp Susanoo away (Highly likely imo they can), they will simply evade around until Itachi's eye-sight &/or stamina gives out. 

My main issue is that i'm not convince Totsuka has the speed to hit Minato; and even less so Tobirama who was reacting to Juubi Jin attacks; and if that doesn't work then Susanoo isn't putting Itachi above ether one of these characters..
.


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## MShadows (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Minato and Tobirama are know for their speed; it's their speed that Itachi needs to overcome. If he can't hit them with Totsuka blade, his odds of winning are very low with Susanoo; as even if you don't believe they can warp Susanoo away (Highly likely imo they can), they will simply evade around until Itachi's eye-sight &/or stamina gives out.
> 
> My main issue is that i'm not convince Totsuka has the speed to hit Minato; and even less so Tobirama who was reacting to Juubi Jin attacks; and if that doesn't work then Susanoo isn't putting Itachi above ether one of these characters..
> .


Regarding that... Susano'o is a chakra construct that is made of Itachi's chakra. 

Once Minato or Tobirama mark it they can simply warp inside the walls of Susano'o (since that thing is like a storage room inside lol) and then proceed to slit Itachi's throat.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Regarding that... Susano'o is a chakra construct that is made of Itachi's chakra.
> 
> Once Minato or Tobirama mark it they can simply warp inside the walls of Susano'o (since that thing is like a storage room inside lol) and then proceed to slit Itachi's throat.


Possible; I'm not fully sold on that idea. But ether way it comes down to speed; Susanoo isn't much help to Itachi offensively if he can't hit Minato or Tobirama with it's attacks.

Honestly Itachi is a character with a-lot of hype in the series and I try to see it both ways in terms of how people rank him, especially since I would be surprised if he comes back in Boruto and is even stronger (or does some crazy shit or get some crazy hype). But I also have a hard time seeing him above Minato (and even more so Tobirama whose like the GoaT of Uchiha Slaying)


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## Reddan (Oct 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Well considering that Itachi failed to actually hit his intended Target Sasuke; I have doubts about whether Itachi would have ever succeeded in using the Crow this way; and he certainly couldn't use 'Koto' in battle.


Well he had no choice, if he did not use the crow then he was going to kill Naruto.


> No Tobirama also said that; the inventor of the Technique.
> 
> Kabuto also had Hashirama's cells and was a better Sage then Orochimaru.


Kabuto did NOT use Sage Energy to use the techniqes and has SOME of Hashirama cells. Orochimaru, retook his Sage Energy from Kabuto AND had a body made completely out of Hashirama's cells. His Edo Tensei was better than Kabuto's.

His second Edo Tensei were much stronger than Kabuto's. Kabuto even needed to absorb Orochimaru's chakra from Anko to make his Edo's better and increase the binding power, prior to that they were breaking free easily. S


> This is most likely due to Gedo Rinnei Tensei restoring Madara's life and chakra, allowing him to break free; and assume a great control over Hashirama.


Nope this is never mentioned and precisely why context is important. Hashirama is constantly saying he needs to beat Madara before he gets to full power. Madara mentions how he has returned to full power. It's a theme, that full power Madara was going to be much stronger. I can provide the several quotes showing this.


> His Chakra was split into at least 12; that's a-lot.


Yes and Itachi was fighting his main body. Kurama has a lot of chakra, hence why Naruto could power up the entire shinobi alliance and still keep fighting Jubito.


> I wouldn't call having help from a Kage 'just a little bit of help'; Mu had also just fought another Kage (Onoki); and Naruto didn't actually 'Beat' Mu.


Gaara was no where near stronger than Bee and the help provided was just a platform. Naruto was too fast for Muu. The fight was done, Muu couldn't last a few panels when fighting KCM Naruto.

Bee>>Gaara and Itachi was able to face them off.

Muu was reduced to an insignificance. He couldn't use Jinton and would be smashed by any high jounin or kage.


> In the case of Ei3, he actually shrugged off everything KCM-Naruto did to him, including FRS, which is more impressive then 3T Itachi; and Naruto only won through turning his attack back at him which he accomplished due to Dodai, Temari's Squad, and Hachibi's knowledge, which again I wouldn't call a 'just a little bit of help'. Ei3 also didn't have the Amber-Jar (& seemingly wasn't able to use his Black Lightening).


No Naruto smashed him with FRS with absolute ease. However, it did not do enough damage to have him sealed. Naruto then round out of KCM Mode. If he hadn't then Naruto would just keep doing this until he died.

Now this is where your hypocrisy and bias is obvious. I am consistent and have said the Kabuto's Edo's were much weaker consistently. Now all of a sudden you are downplaying Edo Sandaime, the pot aside. Itachi being more powerful than Sandaime was weakened just as much.

Sandaime Raikage could not survive fighting KCM Naruto and was beaten by the weaker SM Naruto. When Naruto fought Itachi he had full knowledge of Itachi's techniques, but ti was making no difference all. He had a lot more knowledge about Itachi, than he did Sandaime Raikage.


> I don't find 3T Itachi swapping hands with KCM-Naruto and B that impressive; at best it shows he is on the same 'level' speed was as KCM-Naruto (less 'Shunshin') though, it's possible even that is not the case because KCM-Naruto was just laxly talking to him. The fact that later Base-B took Itachi on in CQC.


Base Bee with Samehada. Again you are being a complete hypocrite. You put Base Bee with Samehada above Raikages.

Itachi was facing KCM and dodging Bee from his blind side. It's highly impressive and this was 3T sharingan Itachi, MS Itachi has even faster fighting speed.

Bee with Samehada was being ran circles around. Itachi was holding back, an Edo and he still was easily catching Bee off guard.

The first time he used the bunshin feint, he jumped up and Bee didn't notice him, but luckily for Bee, Naruto jumped into help him.

He caught Bee in genjutsu, but choice to use slow attacks, giving Bee an opportunity to escape.

He even had to warn Bee where he was, when he blitzed him and got behind his back.

3T sharingan was fighting Samehada Bee and KCM Naruto at the same time.

How about you make some threads and see how many ninjas are capable of taking Base Samehada Bee? That's already high kage level.

3T Itachi was playing with him.


> Just having Rinnegan allowed Sasuke to counter Mugen Tsukuyomi from Madara, which is a 'FAR' more powerful Genjutsu then anything Sasuke has shown and Madara has far more mastery of 'Genjutsu' then Sasuke; and the power of the Juubi.
> 
> Also ignoring that Nagato can avoid eye contact through shared vision.
> 
> If Tsukuyomi would have worked Itachi would have used it.


Sasuke has the original eyes and tome Rinnegan AND the power from RS. Nagato's hand me down Rinnegan has shown no resistance to genjutsu.

As for Tsukiyomi, the Edo regeneration would just heal the damage, so it would not put Nagato down permanently. It would be pointless to use it on and Edo that had to be sealed. Itachi used Totsuka and sealed him away.


> No we don't


Yes we do Pa and Bee, both place Minato slightly below SM Naruto and MS Sasuke. Cee and Sasuke's subsequent feats prove Sasuke has better reactions. Face facts, I am getting tired of you denying manga.


> No it doesn't only Choke Tome does


Yes it does, the databook confirmed that perception and all the sharingan abilities are improved with MS.


> MS Itachi never fought Nagato evenly, because he never fought Nagato 1v1


Yeh he couldn't attack Nagato directly, because first he needed to save the Bee/KCM Naruto.

You mention shared vision, but that is nothing to Itachi, who deals with shared vision using kunai. That's the level he is at.

Your bias is astounding.


> So your one of those people that believe 3T Itachi beat Orochimaru by cutting off his hand even though he laughs off those injuries later in the Manga. Come on man...


Yep, what he did was clearly special, because Orochimaru still has the rotting hand.

Itachi took away Orochimaru's jutsu for some time. Orochimaru stating Itachi is stronger than him and then we see his rotting hand. 200 chapters ,late and many years, we see 3T Itachi


> The Chameleon snuck up on Itachi too; so....


The chameleon did nothing to Itachi. It hit Naruto and Bee slightly. Itachi quickly finished the chameleon and Hell Path's summon.


> A SM user who doesn't have any notable feats of strength... Kabuto's physical strength is likely lower then Jiraiya's and Naruto's so in SM he's also lower.


Pathetic downplaying and reasoning. Why would Perfect SM Kabuto have lower strength than Jiraiya? CS2 improved everyone's strength 10x. KCM Naruto is immensely strong too.

Itachi just has the strength to trade blows with perfect Jinchuriki and SM users. Your obvious bias is so blatant. Look at how far you have to go to try and downplay him. You are not objective at all.


> But I don't see what this prove about 'level' anyway, I don't doubt Itachi's CQC ability being very high.


It shows what level he is at. Again how many other ninjas do you see fighting hand to hand with SM users and perfect Jinchuriki?


> I fail to see this correlation between these two things....


His Susano'o blocked Kirin without the Yata mirror. Zetsu then hyped up Yata. Even if you don't Zetsu's statements, then you have to admit the Yata must have be a better shield than Itachi's Susano' at the very least.

So Yata>>Susano>>Kirin

Minato was pegged below SM Naruto and MS Sasuke two different people. Itachi was easily above KCM Naruto. KCM Naruto got destroyed easily by Nagato.

Itachi>>KCM Naruto>>>SM Naruto=MS Sasuke>Minato

Not to mention 14 year old Bee stalemated Minato.

Bee became stronger than Ay, had 21 years of experience, got Samehada and was made a fool off by 3T Itachi.

Not to mention Base Ay=Minato in reflexes.

Raiton shroud Ay>Minato in reflexes.

MS Sasuke>Raiton shroud Ay>Minato

Itachi>EMS Sasuke (at least in the Kabuto fight)>MS Sasuke>Raiton shroud Ay>Minato

All backed by the manga and impossible to deny.

Nagato has better reaction feats than virtually any ninja and even KCM Naruto, able to easily react to SM Naruto whilst miles away. So we can assume Nagato> SM Naruto reactions. He got blitzed and could not react to Totsuka, so much slower reacting Minato is not reacting either.

With Tobirama we have no direct statements.

With Tobirama we don't have direct statements, but it is implied he is below Sandaime Raikage. As shown before, 3T Itachi out did Sandaime Raikage.

Base Bee with Samehada> Sandaime Raikage. KCM Naruto>>>>> Sandaime Raikage. Itachi is better than both Base Bee with Samehada and KCM Naruto.


> Minato and Tobirama are know for their speed; it's their speed that Itachi needs to overcome. If he can't hit them with Totsuka blade, his odds of winning are very low with Susanoo; as even if you don't believe they can warp Susanoo away (Highly likely imo they can), they will simply evade around until Itachi's eye-sight &/or stamina gives out.


No, because Minato and Tobirama too, don't have the reactions to dodge Totsuka.

Itachi won't even need to camp in Susano'o. He has far better fighting reactions than Minato. He would beat Minato in close quarters if Minato teleported anwhere near him.


> My main issue is that i'm not convince Totsuka has the speed to hit Minato; and even less so Tobirama who was reacting to Juubi Jin attacks; and if that doesn't work then Susanoo isn't putting Itachi above ether one of these characters..
> .


KCM Naruto did far better than Tobirama against Jubi attacks. Nagato had better reflexes than KCM Naruto Naruto. Totsusak blitzed him so Tobirama is not an issue.

You are just trolling with Minato and you know it. We had agreed before than Raiton shroud Ay has better reflexes than Minato. Nagato>>>Raiton shroud Ay. Minato is dodging nothing.

However, Totsuka is not even needed.

All this is clearly backed up by the manga. This is before we get into portrayal. 3T has insane feats already.


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

@Reddan 

Sorry on my phone so I can only respond this way

1. Itachi doesn’t activate Koto; he programmed it to activate when his Mangekyo was present automatically; as he expect Sasuke to take his eyes to get EMS. So it automatically activated when he uses his MS. 

2. It’s specifically stated Orochimaru does not take Kabuto’s Sage Energy, only his own power back from Kabuto. Meaning that Kabuto already had the same ‘power’ of Orochimaru that you are saying made Orochimaru Edo’s stronger. So that’s not possible.

And I already covered the Hashirama DNA, Kabuto had that DNA as well. 

3. Full power Madara being ‘stronger’ isn’t something I’m debating; I’m saying the reason Madara escaped from the Dragons is because his chakra, that the Dragons absorbed, was restored when he was brought back with Gedo Rinnei Tensei

4.  His main body still only had 1/12 of his normal chakra; and citing that Kurama ‘could’ do something when he ‘didn’t’ is irrelevant 

5. Your exaggerating this B and Naruto thing; he faced them for a few moments in CQC, while Naruto was mostly trying to talk to him; immediately after that  Base-B alone was completely capable of taking on Itachi in CQC. So I can’t move forward with this discussion if you going to keep going on about this point.

6. Gaara then countered Mu invisibility with his sand and gave Naruto sand platforms countering Mu flight; Countering 2 of Mu main abilities isn’t a ‘little bit of help’

7. Bottom line can you show me a Dojutsu Genjutsu effecting any Rinnegan user? Even Nagato? If not then we’ll have to agree to disagree

8. No Pa and B don’t; B calls Sasuke one of the strongest he’s faced (not thee strongest); and Pa makes a nebulous comment about Naruto surpassing his predecessors, in what we don’t know for certain; you are ‘speculating’ that he meant strength, but that’s not the statement 

9. Where does the Data-book confirm percent improves with Mangekyo? 

10. Itachi took out shard vision while Nagato was distracted with B and Naruto; as I’ve said before without that distraction Itachi would have to take out shared vision while countering Nagato attacks. It wouldn’t be as easy 

11. How was it special, define what he did there that would prevent Orochimaru from regrowing a hand or fighting without it by entering Yamata no Orochi 

12. Itachi did not notice Nagato while he was hiding in the chameleon same as B and Naruto

13. I already explained why; Kabuto base strength ‘could be’ less then Jiraiya and Naruto’s; so with the same SM multiplier he would still be weaker 

14.  When have I doubted he’s on that level I even said he could be >= KCM Naruto in physical reactions; I think that’s putting him very high 

15. Literally nothing you said changes the fact that Susanoo durability being higher is irrelevant in Itachi beating Minato or Tobirama; what matters is if he can hit them with the Totsuka Blade which is a matter of speed....

16. Tobirama has reactions to react to Juubi Jins and faster then KCM Minato; so unless you can show me Totosuka is around that level in speed and above I’m not going to agree on Tobirama. For Minato he reacted to Ei max speed  Shunshin so I would need feat that show Totosuka blade is faster then that 


17. No we’ve been through this Obito used Shunshin on Tobirama and did not on Naruto; they aren’t comparable; and the attack Obito launched at Tobirama, Naruto directly says he couldn’t see what happened to further support this. 

Minato having reflexes less then Ei didn’t stop him from evading him because he has FTG


----------



## Reddan (Oct 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Reddan
> 
> Sorry on my phone so I can only respond this way
> 
> 1. Itachi doesn’t activate Koto; he programmed it to activate when his Mangekyo was present automatically; as he expect Sasuke to take his eyes to get EMS. So it automatically activated when he uses his MS.


Nope, I don't have the books with me, but the poor scantalations have him clearly say 'he wants to try something.' He then says good it worked. Even adds it works etc.

It was clearly his plan and it had to be done or else he would have killed Naruto.


> 2. It’s specifically stated Orochimaru does not take Kabuto’s Sage Energy, only his own power back from Kabuto. Meaning that Kabuto already had the same ‘power’ of Orochimaru that you are saying made Orochimaru Edo’s stronger. So that’s not possible.


No it specifically says the opposite. It says he took his own Sage energy back. As pointed out, Kabuto himself needed Orochimaru's energy to make it stronger, Orochimaru naturally has more of his own energy. Plus Orochimaru can see everything from his CS and would see Kabuto's improvements.


> And I already covered the Hashirama DNA, Kabuto had that DNA as well.


So does Danzo, but there is a BIG difference between having a body made up entirely of Hashirama's cells and just some of his DNA.


> 3. Full power Madara being ‘stronger’ isn’t something I’m debating; I’m saying the reason Madara escaped from the Dragons is because his chakra, that the Dragons absorbed, was restored when he was brought back with Gedo Rinnei Tensei


Those gates stopped the Jubito. That is possible about the chakra, but there are so many statements from Hashirama about not letting Madara return to full power. There was a big gap.


> 4.  His main body still only had 1/12 of his normal chakra; and citing that Kurama ‘could’ do something when he ‘didn’t’ is irrelevant


I don't get what you are referring to.


> 5. Your exaggerating this B and Naruto thing; he faced them for a few moments in CQC, while Naruto was mostly trying to talk to him; immediately after that  Base-B alone was completely capable of taking on Itachi in CQC. So I can’t move forward with this discussion if you going to keep going on about this point.


He faced them for as long as Muu faced KCM Naruto and Gaara. The difference is he easily kept up and dodged a blind side attack. Muu was done by then. 


> 6. Gaara then countered Mu invisibility with his sand and gave Naruto sand platforms countering Mu flight; Countering 2 of Mu main abilities isn’t a ‘little bit of help’


KCM Naruto can sense hatred, Muu needs to become visible to attack. So no those were not issues for KCM Naruto. Plus Naruto can easily make a KB to throw him like he does throughout the manga. 


> 7. Bottom line can you show me a Dojutsu Genjutsu effecting any Rinnegan user? Even Nagato? If not then we’ll have to agree to disagree


No you have no proof. You need to provide some proof non-Uchiha hand me down Rinnengan Nagato, who can never turn off or downgrade his Rinnegan has access to genjutsu.


> 8. No Pa and B don’t; B calls Sasuke one of the strongest he’s faced (not thee strongest); and Pa makes a nebulous comment about Naruto surpassing his predecessors, in what we don’t know for certain; you are ‘speculating’ that he meant strength, but that’s not the statement


No according to the VIZ he says Sasuke is probably the toughest opponent he has faced. So he is probably undecided what is meant.

Pa's comments might have meant something else, but we also have Bee's comments at the same time.

Kurama also says Naruto surpassed Minato *A While Ago. 
*
Then there is the reflexes comment. 

Finally SM Naruto has reflexes, chakra, strength, toad summons, KB and ninjutsu over his faster. All Minato has is seals and shunshin speed. 

Everything indicates Minato is at this level. If it was just one comment I would write it off, but it was several. Not to mention SM Naruto showed better feats against Jubito than KCM Minato.


> 9. Where does the Data-book confirm percent improves with Mangekyo?


2nd databook.

But this is the dishonestly and the double reasoning that I don't like. At every stage the sharingan upgrades, everything improves from 1 tomoe to tomoe to 3 tome. You have agreed insight improves with EMS. Now you want to pretend that MS, is the ONLY stage where insight does not improve? That's just being intellectually dishonest. Even without proof you should have conceded this is highly likely.


> 10. Itachi took out shard vision while Nagato was distracted with B and Naruto; as I’ve said before without that distraction Itachi would have to take out shared vision while countering Nagato attacks. It wouldn’t be as easy


All he has to do is create a bunshin. Nagato had shared vision to precisely counter such situations. Surely the shared vision would have spotted Itachi trying to take out the eyes with kunais.


> 11. How was it special, define what he did there that would prevent Orochimaru from regrowing a hand or fighting without it by entering Yamata no Orochi


Who knows, but it clearly worked. Orochimaru was utterly defeated, the rotten hand shows the lost of the hand ended the fight. If it was an attack Orochimaru could laugh off then he would not be keeping that hand. Who knows what he did with the genjutsu, but whatever it did it stopped Orochimaru's regeneration.

This is just a possibility, but maybe he just genjutsu Orochimaru to turn off his regenerative abilities if they are not passive.


> 12. Itachi did not notice Nagato while he was hiding in the chameleon same as B and Naruto


Itachi must have been distracted, because he had no trouble taking out the chameleon and Hell summon.


> 13. I already explained why; Kabuto base strength ‘could be’ less then Jiraiya and Naruto’s; so with the same SM multiplier he would still be weaker


With Hashirama, Kimimaro and Jiroubo's cells? Highly unlikely. 


> 14.  When have I doubted he’s on that level I even said he could be >= KCM Naruto in physical reactions; I think that’s putting him very high


Yes it is, which is enough to genjutsu virtually everyone in close contact, which ends fights against kage level opponents.

Then there is handseal speed, which is still unmatched in the manga. So Itachi can always fire out jutsu quicker than his opponent and will nearly always be able to counter.

Then you have his intellect, which is top tier. It's up there with Hiruzen. Hiruzen, Itachi and Shikamaru are the most impressive, but I put Hiruzen at the top, because of his experience.

Lastly you have his ability to bunshin feint everyone except god tiers, ie SM Kabuto and EMS Sasuke.

That alone would put him at high kage, since genjutsu allows him to end characters.


> 15. Literally nothing you said changes the fact that Susanoo durability being higher is irrelevant in Itachi beating Minato or Tobirama; what matters is if he can hit them with the Totsuka Blade which is a matter of speed....


That was a different point


> 16. Tobirama has reactions to react to Juubi Jins and faster then KCM Minato; so unless you can show me Totosuka is around that level in speed and above I’m not going to agree on Tobirama. For Minato he reacted to Ei max speed  Shunshin so I would need feat that show Totosuka blade is faster then that


We are told Minato's reaction speed. It's Ay's level. Also Sasuke reacted to Ay's max speed shunshin too, he put up Enton and Susano'o. 

Nagato has better feats, being able to fight through Deva realm with SM Naruto (only got hammered due to lack of strength). 

Nagato also was decimating KCM Naruto in combat, with no trouble.


> 17. No we’ve been through this Obito used Shunshin on Tobirama and did not on Naruto; they aren’t comparable; and the attack Obito launched at Tobirama, Naruto directly says he couldn’t see what happened to further support this.


Nope. Naruto says 'What the'. He is surprised by the speed and the power. It was the same attack and I have shown you he did the same thing to all three of them.

Nothing at all in the slightest suggest Tobirama reacted to the shunshin. He would have reacted to Jubito created the TBB and blowing his head off. The time taken to form TBB was the same. 


> Minato having reflexes less then Ei didn’t stop him from evading him because he has FTG


Yes with reflexes you need to be able to react. Nagato, got blitzed before he could react just like Orochimaru did. There was no reaction speed. Nagato has far better reaction feats than Minato, but he could do nothing. Even MS Sasuke could react to Ay's shunshin.

The things you have admitted to would immediately put Itachi above Tobirama/Minato.  Easily. You have even admitted Tobirama/Minato would have trouble with characters Itachi decimates.



Again we can discuss portrayal as well.


----------



## Ziggy Stardust (Oct 15, 2019)

Notions of A or B are hilarious. 

C is feasible for Edo.  I'd even favour him (slightly) above Minato with said incarnation in mind. 

Bottom of C/ top of D while healthy. 

And right below MS Sasuke in the height of his illness.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

@Reddan

1. Pretty sure that’s a bad translation, but I don’t have time to look at the Raw myself right now.

2. No it’s specifically stated that Orochimaru only took his Chakra back from Kabuto:

3. Orochimaru didn’t have White Zetsu body when he casts Edo Tensei; he takes that body after already casting the Technique

4. I’m not saying Madara wasn’t stronger I’m saying this Gate scene is not a good judge of that.

5. Naruto prior to engaging Itachi & Nagato has spread his KCM chakra out among at least 12 other clones leaving him with a fraction of his normal KCM chakra he was significantly weaker.

6. Naruto was only using Basic Taijutsu against Itachi. Mu and Ei3 also we’re able to dodge Naruto straight-forward attacks and we’re only tagged when he used Chakra Arm to finesse them, which he never used against Itachi. Naruto was not fighting Itachi ‘that’ seriously because he was talking to him about Sasuke.

7. You don’t have proof that Tskuyomi will work on Rinnegan; and I don’t have proof that Tskuyomi definitely won’t work on Nagato’s Rinnegan, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree then

8. I’ve seen it both ways; and I wouldn’t trust the Viz translation they make a ton of mistakes. Also even if we went with the Viz he says ‘probably’ showing he isn’t sure; and there is ‘doubt’ there which means he isn’t sure of the extent of Sasuke’s abilities or the abilities of whoever he’s comparing him. We have to also take into account did Kishimoto even think up the idea that Minato fought B & A back then, years prior to writing the chapter where Minato fight B & A.

Also story wise it doesn’t make a-lot of sense that Sasuke would be the ‘strongest’ B fought as later a stronger Sasuke fights with Ei to a near draw, so it already looks like B was wrong about Sasuke being above his brother if he was leaning in that direction. And then we have Ei later own jerking off Minato and talking about how he can’t imagine someone better then him, which directly implies Minato > Ei, which reinforces the idea that if B thought that he was wrong.

So even if we go with the Viz, then it just means B was wrong, which is easy to accept as he already showed doubt.

9. Please don’t accuse someone of dishonestly when they are only asking you for a scan or I will start taking my own responses to you less seriously. I am undecided if Mangekyo increases someone’s perception or not; the link you gave me just took me to a bunch of Data-book stuff but I could fun anything on Mangekyo, please give me a direct link

10. A bushin can take care of shared vision, but that still leaves Itachi to defend Nagato attacks while that occurs, which he did not have to do in actual manga battle. I maintain this will be more difficult for him.

11. Okay so let me put this to you another way then, can you prove Orochimaru even had his regeneration & Yamata no Orochimaru Technique back then. Because you need to prove that first before you can start to prove Itachi stooped Orochimaru from regenerating or using Yamata somehow

12. The chameleon wasn’t invisible anymore when Itachi took it out

13. ‘You thinking something is unlikely isn’t an argument or evidence. We don’t know how Kabuto integration effected his physical strength.

14. Dude you shotgunning tons of arguments that have nothing to do with the point we discussed, please stop it’s not good form in a discussion. The bottom line is I already said i can see the argument for Itachi speed is >= KCM Physical reactions and I actually agree with it, so please stop attacking me stance as if I don’t understand this premise

15. Yes and with that reaction speed Minato reacted to Ei Max Speed Shunshin attack, so please show me proof that Totsuka is faster then that.

16. Show me Nagato amazing reaction feats ‘without’ shared vision; I’ve asked you for this many times and I won’t repeat myself, I will simply disregard this argument from now on if you continue it without evidence

17. Yeah he was surprised and question ‘what the’ was going on, while Tobirama was able to follow JJ Obito movements and tag him multiple times

Obito used Shunshin to attack him, so it’s the same thing as KCM Naruto reacting to Ei lunch after he used Shunshin

18. A>B>C isn’t good logic, and it’s not convincing to me at all


----------



## Reddan (Oct 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Reddan
> 
> 1. Pretty sure that’s a bad translation, but I don’t have time to look at the Raw myself right now.


The VIZ is not as clear, but still implies he planned it.

Naruto says his thing about Tsukiyomi/Amaterasu ending you and Itachi replies

*'We'll see about that.'*
He then later says
*I used a new genjutsu on the enemey jutsu.
*
He knew what he was doing.


> 2. No it’s specifically stated that Orochimaru only took his Chakra back from Kabuto:


Again this is why I keep harping on about reading things in context.


*I secured senjutsu chakra in those curse marks they're like pieces of my consciousness.

Lord Orochimaru immediately tried to acquire that power but he didn't possess a body that could tolerate it. That's why he couldn't become the PERFECT Sage I have become.
*
Orochimaru is an imperfect Sage of some sorts.
*
*


> 3. Orochimaru didn’t have White Zetsu body when he casts Edo Tensei; he takes that body after already casting the Technique


*She needs to be alive for me to extract Lord Orochimaru's chakra. I am not Lord Orochimaru at least in body. His chakra is critical for me to expand my power.

I can feel power flowing into me.

I can bind them so much more tightly now I have Orochimaru's chakra

When I reclaimed and reabsorbed my chakra from Kabuto all his intell got transferred into me too.
*
So Orochimaru's powers and body are better for Edo Tensei AND he the intell on how Kabuto improved the jutsu.

He also did Edo Tensei and took over the Zetsu body at the same time, so I am sure it did power them up.

More powerful Orochimaru chakra + Hashirama cells and Kabuto's intell means more powerful Edo Tensei.


> 4. I’m not saying Madara wasn’t stronger I’m saying this Gate scene is not a good judge of that.


Doesn't really matter, it is stressed living Madara is much stronger.


> 5. Naruto prior to engaging Itachi & Nagato has spread his KCM chakra out among at least 12 other clones leaving him with a fraction of his normal KCM chakra he was significantly weaker.


Still more chakra than he had in the war arc when he was spreading it across thousands of shinobi. Those clones not even the real body were also taking down high kages, in your rating.


> 6. Naruto was only using Basic Taijutsu against Itachi. Mu and Ei3 also we’re able to dodge Naruto straight-forward attacks and we’re only tagged when he used Chakra Arm to finesse them, which he never used against Itachi. Naruto was not fighting Itachi ‘that’ seriously because he was talking to him about Sasuke.


It makes more sense to hit and then restrain him. He tried it against Nagato and it failed miserably. I


> 7. You don’t have proof that Tskuyomi will work on Rinnegan; and I don’t have proof that Tskuyomi definitely won’t work on Nagato’s Rinnegan, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree then


I still stand you need proof to back up your claims. Give me proof of Nagato showing resistance to sharingan genjutsu.


> 8. I’ve seen it both ways; and I wouldn’t trust the Viz translation they make a ton of mistakes. Also even if we went with the Viz he says ‘probably’ showing he isn’t sure; and there is ‘doubt’ there which means he isn’t sure of the extent of Sasuke’s abilities or the abilities of whoever he’s comparing him. We have to also take into account did Kishimoto even think up the idea that Minato fought B & A back then, years prior to writing the chapter where Minato fight B & A.


Ton of mistakes, but still far better than anything else and it makes the most sense with the flow of the story. Many plot points make no sense until you read the VIZ. Fan translations also tend to greatly over-exaggerate things.

Kishimoto is a master of retconning things into the story like the sand priest, Byakugan coming from the sharingan, Hiruzen being the professor, Orochimaru loses his hand.

If he wanted to he could  retconned in, but even the he usually works something into the story. He actually gave us inverse reason for why Hiruzen was regarded as the strongest Hokage. Hashirama was disregarded as a fairy tail.

He backs up what he says by having 14 year old Bee, no strength greater than raiton Raikage, with no BIju bomb, no V2 and 21 years less experience stalemate Minato.


> Also story wise it doesn’t make a-lot of sense that Sasuke would be the ‘strongest’ B fought as later a stronger Sasuke fights with Ei to a near draw, so it already looks like B was wrong about Sasuke being above his brother if he was leaning in that direction. And then we have Ei later own jerking off Minato and talking about how he can’t imagine someone better then him, which directly implies Minato > Ei, which reinforces the idea that if B thought that he was wrong.


Once more you are debating dishonestly.

You more than anyone keeps stressing the importance of intel. The Raikage had full knowledge on Sasuke and time to formulate plans to deal with his jutsu. Sasuke had no knowledge of the Raikage at all. It was a guy with full knowledge vs someone with none. If I created a battle thread like that you would say I am trolling.

Still Sasuke walked away hurt, Raikage was crippled and had it not been for Gaara he would have been further crippled. Leg dropping Enton spikes would chopped his leg off easily.

Also without knowledge of Amaterasu he gets one-shotted.

This fight further stresses Sasuke might be stronger than Minato, because it confirms he has better reflexes. Looking at all the information we are presented with
1. SM Naruto said to surpass Minato
2. MS Sasuke said to possibly be stronger than Minato
3. MS Sasuke confirmed as having better reflexes than Minato
4. Kurama telling us Naruto surpassed Minato a while ago.
5. Minato stalemating with a 14 year old Bee, much, much weaker than the one Sasuke fought.

Look at all those statements and the most logical and sensible conclusion is Minato is around MS Sasuke and SM Naruto level.


> So even if we go with the Viz, then it just means B was wrong, which is easy to accept as he already showed doubt.


No at that point it was questionable. Once Sasuke gets even stronger there should be no doubt.


> 9. Please don’t accuse someone of dishonestly when they are only asking you for a scan or I will start taking my own responses to you less seriously. I am undecided if Mangekyo increases someone’s perception or not; the link you gave me just took me to a bunch of Data-book stuff but I could fun anything on Mangekyo, please give me a direct link


No the dishonesty is in the debating not requesting the scan. You KNOW every level of the sharingan improves perception. It is fairly obvious. You KNOW it, but you are questioning something, which is logical and obvious.

*Main text

The culmination of the Sharingan that makes the Uchiha clan so special! Eye techniques holding the utmost potency even above both the insight and hypnosis, such as Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu become possible. Assuredly, Mangekyou Sharingan is the ultimate doujutsu*.
It apears these heavenly eyes** have further special powers that are yet to be clarified, but just what those could be about (is unknown)......*


> 10. A bushin can take care of shared vision, but that still leaves Itachi to defend Nagato attacks while that occurs, which he did not have to do in actual manga battle. I maintain this will be more difficult for him.


He took care of Cerberus, and Susano'o blocks everything else.


> 11. Okay so let me put this to you another way then, can you prove Orochimaru even had his regeneration & Yamata no Orochimaru Technique back then. Because you need to prove that first before you can start to prove Itachi stooped Orochimaru from regenerating or using Yamata somehow


Yes, Itachi knew the feeling of Orochimaru's Hydra technique. He didn't say he heard of it, he KNEW the feeling. So he had obviously seen it before. Orochimaru had also shown his substitution technique. So yes 3T Itachi stopped Orochimaru and took away hit jutsu just like Hiruzen.


> 12. The chameleon wasn’t invisible anymore when Itachi took it out


I don't see your point. Itachi clearly took out two invisible summns.


> 13. ‘You thinking something is unlikely isn’t an argument or evidence. We don’t know how Kabuto integration effected his physical strength.


Again you are using your double standard. You tried to compare having Hashirama's cells to having an entire body made of his cells.

I am fairly sure having Kimimaro's bones, Jiribou's genes and Hashirama's improved all his physical abilities. Have we seen anyone not improved physically by having Hashirama's cells?  It's not even like Naruto is particularly strong in Base.

If anything with Hashirama's cells etc Kabuto is much stronger in abse.


> 14. Dude you shotgunning tons of arguments that have nothing to do with the point we discussed, please stop it’s not good form in a discussion. The bottom line is I already said i can see the argument for Itachi speed is >= KCM Physical reactions and I actually agree with it, so please stop attacking me stance as if I don’t understand this premise


Yes and we are discussing what tier Itachi is so it is relevant.


> 15. Yes and with that reaction speed Minato reacted to Ei Max Speed Shunshin attack, so please show me proof that Totsuka is faster then that.


I already did. It dealt with KCM Naruto's fighting speed at point blank range.

Minato level reactions cannot even deal with MS Sasuke in close combat.


> 16. Show me Nagato amazing reaction feats ‘without’ shared vision; I’ve asked you for this many times and I won’t repeat myself, I will simply disregard this argument from now on if you continue it without evidence


I already did and told you them. He controlled Deva realm from miles away and had him fighting speed wise at the same level as a SM user. We know SM Naruto>>KCM Minato let alone Base Minato. Even from miles away Nagato had better reactions than Minato.

Deva realm never got blitzed by SM Naruto. He was dodging RS from point blank range.

Being able to react and fight evenly (speed wise he did not have the strength) with SM Naruto puts him way above Minato.


> 17. Yeah he was surprised and question ‘what the’ was going on, while Tobirama was able to follow JJ Obito movements and tag him multiple times


It wasn't a question, but rather a statement. There were no question marks. Tobirama was never able to follow Jubito's movements. He reacted to Jubito grabbing his head and blast him with the TSO.

If Tobirama could react to his shunshin, why didn't he teleport away, before the TSO blew his head off? He just barely, reacted to Jubito forming and blasting his head off, by touching him.

In the exact same situation, Naruto was able to reach out and grab Sasuke and Minato. Far more impressive.


> Obito used Shunshin to attack him, so it’s the same thing as KCM Naruto reacting to Ei lunch after he used Shunshin


No it's not, because Obito then grabbed their head and fired TSO. I have posted the scans and to drive the point home he does the exact same jutsu three times with the exact same move.

It could not be more clear.

He shunshins, grabs his opponents head, then expands and fires TSO from his hands. KCM Naruto showed the best reaction. Everyone grabbed was able to mentally react even old Hiruzen.

With the Totsuka neither Orochimaru or Nagato, who has SM level reflexes could react.


> 18. A>B>C isn’t good logic, and it’s not convincing to me at all


Well it should be, because that's how we determine tiers. Match ups only really matter when there is a gap or the match up is extreme, but you seem to think everyone is a bad match up for Itachi.

You place Muu and Sandaime Raikage as high tier kages, when feats has Itachi above them.

Again how many ninjas can stop a ninja with Close quarter skills around KCM level, but can end the fight with eye contact?
How many ninjas can face a guy, who can make KB in front of sharingan, SM and EMS users, but they still don't notice.
Or summon crows that when they disperse stun EMS and SM users long enough to give him an opening.
Or has handseals so fast you cannot keep tract.
With top tier intelligence.

That's before we get to MS or the Totsuka and Yata.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

@Redden

1. As I said I don’t really trust the Viz, but it really doesn’t matter to me one way or another if Itachi activated Koto or not, so I’m going to drop the point 

2-3. Yeah he took back the chakra Kabuto had already taken from him; so Kabuto already had that ‘power’ on top of his own. So why would Orochimaru using that same ‘power’ have better ‘Edos’ 

4. Of course he is Living Madara can use Rinnegan to its fullest, on-top of his stats being a bit better from when he was an Edo. I never disputed this. I only disputed the idea that Blind-Madara showed superior abilities to Edo Madara.

5. Saying he had ‘more’ chakra then at other points in the WA (which is a whole other discussion), doesn’t change the fact that he was ‘significantly’ weakened when facing Itachi. We literally saw at the end of that fight he couldn’t use a single Kage Bushin without losing KCM. 

6. It doesn’t matter what you ‘think’ is more effective, what matters is he launched straight-forward attacks on the Edo Kage and they also handled them easily as Itachi did; and they only got tripped up by moves that Itachi did not face. 

7. And I stand by the fact that you need to show proof that someone with a Dojutsu 2 Grades inferior to Rinnegan, can successful cast a Visual Genjutsu on a Rinnegan user, when so far no one has been shown able to do so in the series period and even Itachi himself didn’t use Tskuyomi when fighting Nagato. So we’ll have to agree to disagree. 

8. I’m glad you ‘think’ he backs it up, but I don’t agree, I see him not backing it up by making Minato performances/hype far better then a beginner MS Sasuke whose still weakened from the Itachi fight. 

9. If Sasuke did not have Susanoo (which he didn’t have against B or at least B never saw it); then Sasuke would have died to Ei Laiger Bomb, Low diff before Amaterasu even became an issue. You need to realize that by taking Bs statement to mean that Sasuke showing only what he did against B was >= Minato or Ei, that would be a Sasuke without Susanoo, Enton, and still physically weakened from his wounds against Itachi. IMO it’s a very big stretch to say the story wants us to believe that Sasuke is above or equal to Ei, let alone Minato; and since B showed ‘doubt’, I don’t believe it and you not really doing anything to convince me thus far.

10. So why is it Questionable when B makes that statement? If he has a perfect understanding of all of his enemies and Sasuke’s abilities, why is Sasuke only ‘probably’ the strongest rather then ‘thee’ strongest 

11. If Susanoo comes out Nagato will likely use CT as he did once he saw Itachi’s Susanoo in canon; which brings us back to can Itachi survive CT, which I don’t think he can alone

12. He never took out the Chameleon when it was invisible....

13. You being ‘very sure’ isn’t an argument; do you have proof it increased his physical strength or not?

14. It’s not relevant to that point though


15. KCM Naruto physical speed is inferior to Ei Max Shunshin speed; that’s why KCM Naruto needed to use his own Shunshin to dodge him; and Itachi only kept up with KCM Naruto physical speed, not his Shunshin. Also your talking about Itachi physical speed, not Susanoo’s, so the whole thing is based on a false equivalence.

So again show me Itachi Susanoo having great speed then Ei max speed Shunshin attack; or were done with this point.

16. Okay show me Totosuka Blade or Susanoo tagging Deva Realm, Deva Realm is not Emaciated Nagato; that’s the whole reason Nagato used the Paths in the first place.

17. Again that is the same thing as Naruto reacting to Ei Max Speed punch. Ei used Shunshin to appear in-front of him and catch him off guard, and then Ei punches him; and Naruto reacts dodging the attack. JJ Obito uses Shunshin to surprise Hashirama and Tobirama; and then attacks them with TSB, Hashirama gets destroyed, but Tobirama reacts to this tagging Obito a bunch of times.

And the statement was what happened; so Naruto didn’t even know what happened. 

18. But let me put this to you another way. You have Blind SM Madara at the very top of your list in Physical Speed, according to what you said in my other thread. Tobirama reacted to an evaded an attack from SM Madara, so can you prove to me Itachi Totosuka attack is faster then SM Madara attack at point blank range?

19. And I don’t agree match up always matters, we determine ‘tiers’ or at least I do on how characters would perform overall against all Ninja in the verse and multiple situations; as well as how they have historically performed in the verse form statements and the enemies they have faced. 

20. You ‘thinking’ Itachi has better feats then the Edo Kage is not an argument.


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## Reddan (Oct 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Redden
> 
> 1. As I said I don’t really trust the Viz, but it really doesn’t matter to me one way or another if Itachi activated Koto or not, so I’m going to drop the point


Just another sign in the many of his grreat intellect.


> 2-3. Yeah he took back the chakra Kabuto had already taken from him; so Kabuto already had that ‘power’ on top of his own. So why would Orochimaru using that same ‘power’ have better ‘Edos’


1. Kabuto did not have all of Orochimaru's chakra he could only take a portion of it, which made his Edo Tensei better. Orochimaru, being Orochimaru took that portion back AND is the originator of his own chakra. Of course the original has better chakra for a jutsu, than someone who took a portion of it.
2. Orochimaru learnt how Kabuto improved the technique and would use it himself.
3. Orochimaru's technique was powered up by a body made of Hashirama cells.


> 4. Of course he is Living Madara can use Rinnegan to its fullest, on-top of his stats being a bit better from when he was an Edo. I never disputed this. I only disputed the idea that Blind-Madara showed superior abilities to Edo Madara.


He easily used the black rods to control and destroy Hashirama. Rinnegan Madara could not do that. I can also find the quotes, but Hashirama, who knows Madara's true power better than anyone is desperate to defeat him before he revives. The implication is the gap is big.


> 5. Saying he had ‘more’ chakra then at other points in the WA (which is a whole other discussion), doesn’t change the fact that he was ‘significantly’ weakened when facing Itachi. We literally saw at the end of that fight he couldn’t use a single Kage Bushin without losing KCM.


After a hard fight. It is true he is weakened, but that is still better than any of the other kages faced and the level he was at for most his war feats.

What does this say about KCM's reactions against Jubito then? He had used up a lot more chakra?


> 6. It doesn’t matter what you ‘think’ is more effective, what matters is he launched straight-forward attacks on the Edo Kage and they also handled them easily as Itachi did; and they only got tripped up by moves that Itachi did not face.


They still literally lasted a few panels and had no exchanges with him. None of them could get into a taijutsu exchange with KCM Naruto. 


> 7. And I stand by the fact that you need to show proof that someone with a Dojutsu 2 Grades inferior to Rinnegan, can successful cast a Visual Genjutsu on a Rinnegan user, when so far no one has been shown able to do so in the series period and even Itachi himself didn’t use Tskuyomi when fighting Nagato. So we’ll have to agree to disagree.


1. We are told that a master with a stone beats a shuriken. This was done to highlight a skilled user of the base sharingan could put an MS user in genjutsu. Itachi is an extremely skilled user of genjutsu and Tsukiyomi is the second most powerful genjutsu we see.
2. Nagato has a hand me down Rinnegan, which cannot be downgraded.
3. Nagato has a hand me down Rinnegan, which does not seem to be able to copy jutsu, slow down movement, cast genjutsu or use Susano'o. So you need to prove it would have the sharingan's resistance to genjutsu, when it has none of the other sharingan qualities.
[QUOTE
8. I’m glad you ‘think’ he backs it up, but I don’t agree, I see him not backing it up by making Minato performances/hype far better then a beginner MS Sasuke whose still weakened from the Itachi fight.[/QUOTE]

1. Sasuke used a jutsu capable of one taking down the 8 tails. This is an incredible display of power. Against the 8 tails Minato has nothing, but the Death God seal to secure a draw. 
2. He dodged V2 and was the only person apart from Ay to do so.
3. He managed to use a powerful genjutsu, which paralysed Bee. Now Bee was the perfect counter to this, but it is another thing to impress him.
4. He was able to use chidori, a jutsu capable of piercing Ay and had chidori lance, which even Orochimaru was impressed with.

Overall he showed greater raw power, possibly greater reflexes and greater genjutsu. That's enough to make them on the same ball park and Bee to question if Sasuke was stronger. 

Having a jutsu, which can take down the 8 tails is especially impressive. Yes Bee escaped Amaterasu, but virtually no ninjas have jutsu that power not even Minato (except his suicide jutsu).


> 9. If Sasuke did not have Susanoo (which he didn’t have against B or at least B never saw it); then Sasuke would have died to Ei Laiger Bomb, Low diff before Amaterasu even became an issue. You need to realize that by taking Bs statement to mean that Sasuke showing only what he did against B was >= Minato or Ei, that would be a Sasuke without Susanoo, Enton, and still physically weakened from his wounds against Itachi. IMO it’s a very big stretch to say the story wants us to believe that Sasuke is above or equal to Ei, let alone Minato; and since B showed ‘doubt’, I don’t believe it and you not really doing anything to convince me thus far.


First point this is not the only comparison to Minato. If it was alone I would agree with you. We also have SM Naruo> Minato and Sasuke having better reflexes. If it was not the authors intent, why does he have so many references to SM Naruto/MS Sasuke being close or better than Minato. One is an accident, several so close together shows intent. 

Not only that, but Kurama say Naruto surpassed Minato a while ago. Again implying this was with SM.

As for Ay vs Sasuke you have the fight completely wrong. 

Ay knew all of Sasuke's jutsu and had time to plan and counter them. Sasuke knew nothing about Ay. Sasuke would never have rushed in from the start or risked getting caught by Ay's monstrous strength. 

Ay actually needed time to build up his chakra for his max speed shunshin. He did this, because he knew about Amaterasu and Sasuke changing into the MS signally that. Otherwise Amaterasu one shots Ay, who has not prepared for his max speed.

Again let me make a fight where one character has complete knowledge, and time to discuss counters with the smartest ninjas in his village. The other guy has no knowledge at all, rather than his opponent is strong. 

Everything was stacked against Sasuke and with only the improvement of his rib cage, he was going to kill Ay. 

Minato>Ay, but don't forget in all their fights Minato never did any lasting damage to Ay. Sasuke took away Ay's arm, took away his jutsu and crippled him for life. 

So I think it is fair to say they are in the same ball park by feats.


> 10. So why is it Questionable when B makes that statement? If he has a perfect understanding of all of his enemies and Sasuke’s abilities, why is Sasuke only ‘probably’ the strongest rather then ‘thee’ strongest


Because it is close. Sasuke has greater raw power and greater genjutsu than Minato. Minato is faster and has his teleporting. He is undecided about who is better. It makes sense. However, Sasuke improves further and eventually matches SM Naruto who is greater than Minato.

We have 4 different statements from 3 people, who knew Minato's power very well and rated him extremely highly, suggest SM Naruto is above Minato level. The third we have from a highly intelligent ninja in Cee, who knows a lot about everything. 


> 11. If Susanoo comes out Nagato will likely use CT as he did once he saw Itachi’s Susanoo in canon; which brings us back to can Itachi survive CT, which I don’t think he can alone


We both agree to disagree, but the fact that YOU are saying Nagato's only shot is to use his most powerful move and hope it works, already shows they are on the same tier.

As shown Nagato decimates KCM Naruto AND Bee. We can make a thread, but I would back those two against the Gokage. 

Putting Itachi at a level, where Nagato has to use his best move to win, puts him far, far above the likes of Muu and Sandaime Raikage. KCM Naruto>>> SM Naruto and MS Sasuke.

Nagato just dismantled him. If Itachi is weaker than Nagato according to you, but close enough for Nagato to have to use CT to win, then once more than is way beyond every other normal ninja. 

Nobody else is in Nagato's league until we get to reincarnations and 10 tails Jinchuriki or Kabuto with the Edo's. 


> 12. He never took out the Chameleon when it was invisible....


Hell Path definitely was invisible and Itachi saw and took that out. With the chameleon, Bee did not seem to notice them. 


> 13. You being ‘very sure’ isn’t an argument; do you have proof it increased his physical strength or not?


I can give you quotes and statements from several sources showing Hashirama's cells increased physical strength.

From Obito to Danzo. Hashirama cells improve physical stats, but he had Kimimaro's and Jirobu's as well. 


> 14. It’s not relevant to that point though


No it is extremely relevant when discussing what tier Itachi is at. You can't just dismiss those points.


> 15. KCM Naruto physical speed is inferior to Ei Max Shunshin speed; that’s why KCM Naruto needed to use his own Shunshin to dodge him; and Itachi only kept up with KCM Naruto physical speed, not his Shunshin. Also your talking about Itachi physical speed, not Susanoo’s, so the whole thing is based on a false equivalence.


Unless Ay is moving already, dodging is all about reactions. He needs to react to the attack. Ay's reactions are inferior to KCM Naruto, whose reactions are inferior to Nagato, who got blitzed. 

Nagato has reactions superior to SM Naruto. If Nagato cannot react then nobody below SM Naruto reactions is going to react, which is virtually every ninja in the manga. 

Totsuka sword is actually faster than Itachi, since it can blitz Nagato, without him even reacting. Nothing else in the series has done that to Nagato.


> So again show me Itachi Susanoo having great speed then Ei max speed Shunshin attack; or were done with this point.


Yes we are done. Ay's max shunshin speed was reacted to by Minato and Sasuke. Both of them don't have Nagato level reactions. 

Totsuka blitzed Nagato. He could not even mentally react, this is much faster than Ay's top speed, which MS Sasuke and Minato reacted too, both of them with far worse reactions than SM Naruto or Nagato.


> 16. Okay show me Totosuka Blade or Susanoo tagging Deva Realm, Deva Realm is not Emaciated Nagato; that’s the whole reason Nagato used the Paths in the first place.


Nagato is much stronger than Pain. This was confirmed by Naruto. Pain was just a convenient jutsu to get around his lack of mobility. 

This was not emancipated Nagato either. 

Nagato lacks the physical speed to dodge things, but his reactions as shown were at the very top of any ninja. He is the one controlling and reacting with Deva Realm. It is not like Edo, where they react on autopilot, Nagato is putting the chakra in and reacting.

Nagato>Deva in reactions.
Totsuka blitzed those reactions. 

Apart from the gods only SM Kabuto, Itachi himself and Nagato have reactions on SM Naruto level.


> 17. Again that is the same thing as Naruto reacting to Ei Max Speed punch. Ei used Shunshin to appear in-front of him and catch him off guard, and then Ei punches him; and Naruto reacts dodging the attack. JJ Obito uses Shunshin to surprise Hashirama and Tobirama; and then attacks them with TSB, Hashirama gets destroyed, but Tobirama reacts to this tagging Obito a bunch of times.
> 
> And the statement was what happened; so Naruto didn’t even know what happened.


Yes Tobirama almost certainly has better reactions than Base Hashirama. Neither Madara or Hashirama are actually known for being speed demons. They are god tier, but their speed is actually not hyped that much. EMS and SM Madara reactions are a different story.

Proof to me Naruto did not know what happened, when he manage to grab 2 people form further away, reacting to the same attack. We see CLEARLY on panel KCM Naruto do react faster than Tobirama. 

We then see SM Naruto be the only person quick enough to attack and not be hit by Tobirama, when he wasn't even distracted. 


> 18. But let me put this to you another way. You have Blind SM Madara at the very top of your list in Physical Speed, according to what you said in my other thread. Tobirama reacted to an evaded an attack from SM Madara, so can you prove to me Itachi Totosuka attack is faster then SM Madara attack at point blank range?


That was a mistake, I should have had BSM Naruto at the top and Blind SM Madara second, but it matters little.

Tobirama was a teleporter and got destroyed in seconds without being able to touch him. This means in close quarters SM Madara tagged Tobirama before he could even react.


> 19. And I don’t agree match up always matters, we determine ‘tiers’ or at least I do on how characters would perform overall against all Ninja in the verse and multiple situations; as well as how they have historically performed in the verse form statements and the enemies they have faced.


I agree to a certain extent, which is why Bee was unsure where to place Minato and MS Sasuke. Against certain opponents they each had their strengths and weaknesses.

For instance MS Sasuke could take Hachibee other Bijuu and Sandaime Raikage ( in my opinion the strongest non Hokage, kage). Minato is better for dealing with faster opponents.


> 20. You ‘thinking’ Itachi has better feats then the Edo Kage is not an argument.


We could make threads of Base Bee with Samehada against the Edo Kage. 
3T Itachi was to Base Bee.

Or we can make a thread about Orochimaru vs the kages. 

Both Samehada Bee and Orochimaru are on panel below just 3T Itachi.


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

@Reddan

1. Kabuto could freely draw on that same Orochimaru chakra from Anko, so how could Orochimaru be better. Unless you get me a statement, we’ll have to agree to disagree

2. The Black Rods are a Rinnegan ability

3. No it’s exactly the same as what he had against the Edo-Kage, his chakra was evenly split between himself and the Clones

4. I don’t really care how long they last against moves Itachi didn’t face.

5. Again we will have to agree to disagree on the Rinnegan; I’ve heard the arguments and I simply don’t agree with them

6. Minato > Ei is firmly established in the story and I can’t see the version of Sasuke that faced B as stronger the Ei; that’s one of my main problems; the other being that Minato beat MS Teen Obito who is I feel is firmly established as > B Fight Sasuke.

7. Knowledge wise your right Ei has more knowledge then Sasuke; but if we gave them the same knowledge B fight Sasuke would loose. Given them both full knowledge and Ei dodges Amaterasu as he did in canon; and then blitz Sasuke who dies without Susanoo to protect him. Give them both no knowledge and B fight Sasuke attacks Ei in CqC (don’t tell me he wouldn’t because he did this against B); and he eats the Laiger Bomb and dies.

I don’t see how B Fight Sasuke can win; if both had the same knowledge.

8. I don’t think ‘needing’ your strongest Technique to beat someone, but still ultimately winning, makes you ‘necessarily’ the same ‘Tier’. Are you going to apply that same standard to Itachi where anyone he ‘needs’ Susanoo to beat he’s the same ‘Tier’ as?

9. You also keep bringing up the Naruto and B thing, but Itachi engaged Naruto and B, and couldnt do anything meaningful to them; and then later Base-B fought Itachi successfully solo. In the smaller time frame with Naruto and B using more powerful abilities, Nagato had them seemingly ‘beat’ (maybe B could have gone BM). So isn’t that Nagato greatly outperforming Itachi, by your own standard?

10. Hell Paths invisibility is not the same as the Chameleons; so false equivalence

11.  Even if we say Hashiraman cells increase physical strength, it’s still an increase on Kabuto Base, which if insufficient he can still be bellow Jiraiya and Naruto.

12. Look man we were directly told Nagato couldn’t deal with Totsuka due Itachi taking out  shared vision; this tells us with shared vision for whatever reason he wouldn’t have been blitz’s. So you can’t use Nagato feats with shared vision and apply them to Totsuka speed. I’m not going to repeat myself again; I will drop this entire portion of the discussion.

As far as  Edo Nagato being stronger then the ‘Paths’ that doesn’t mean his ability to react was superior to Deva Path’s. But I also don’t know why you are so high on Deva Paths physical reaction speed. Base-Naruto kept up with him fine in Taijutsu and SM-Naruto clowned him:

So I don’t see why something that could blitz Deva Realm (which you haven’t even proven) would be above Max Speed Ei Shunshin in speed.

13. Naruto didn’t react to the same attack; Obito didn’t use Shunshin there; again this is the last time I repeat myself

14. Tobirama still reacted to and evaded an attack you claim is from one of the fastest characters in the verse. The fact that Madara eventually hit him (potentially using Rinbo and not speed for all we know); is off little consequence that he showed he could evade an attack of that speed; so show me that Totsuka is faster then that attack or I’m not going to believe it Tags Tobirama

15. How is Base B bellow 3T Itachi when he fought equally with him and forced him back. And I see no way short of maybe Izanami that 3T Itachi can beat Orochimaru who has his rege, P1 Edos, and Yamata no Orochi

So maybe before you get too far ahead of yourself; you should make a Base-B vs 3T Itachi or Orochimaru at Full Power w/ P1 Edos vs 3T Itachi first.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 16, 2019)

Healthy version: B
Sick version: C


----------



## Reddan (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Reddan
> 
> 1. Kabuto could freely draw on that same Orochimaru chakra from Anko, so how could Orochimaru be better. Unless you get me a statement, we’ll have to agree to disagree


Since Orochimaru is the source of the chakra, rather than Kabuto just drawing from the CS. Also he has the Hashirama body.


> 2. The Black Rods are a Rinnegan ability


This is true, but Living Madara could use the black rod technique without eyes. The point is Edo Rinnegan Madara with the eyes could not use the black rods to paralyse Hashirama at any point. Living Madara did it effortlessly. 


> 3. No it’s exactly the same as what he had against the Edo-Kage, his chakra was evenly split between himself and the Clones


No originals are always stronger than KBs.


> 4. I don’t really care how long they last against moves Itachi didn’t face.


Do you think Itachi last a couple of panels against KCM Naruto? Refusing to admit the truth.


> 5. Again we will have to agree to disagree on the Rinnegan; I’ve heard the arguments and I simply don’t agree with them


Yes I have given the stronger arguments and you refuse to accept it.


> 6. Minato > Ei is firmly established in the story and I can’t see the version of Sasuke that faced B as stronger the Ei; that’s one of my main problems; the other being that Minato beat MS Teen Obito who is I feel is firmly established as > B Fight Sasuke.


I don't rate MS Obito highly at all. As I said he ran hid and sent others to capture/kill his targets. Orochimaru, Killerbee and Danzo.

Minato is >Ay, but not by leagues. Minato was never able to kill or even badly wound Ay. 


> 7. Knowledge wise your right Ei has more knowledge then Sasuke; but if we gave them the same knowledge B fight Sasuke would loose. Given them both full knowledge and Ei dodges Amaterasu as he did in canon; and then blitz Sasuke who dies without Susanoo to protect him. Give them both no knowledge and B fight Sasuke attacks Ei in CqC (don’t tell me he wouldn’t because he did this against B); and he eats the Laiger Bomb and dies.


With knowledge Sasuke wins. He learnt to control the flames against Bee when he turned them off. Sasuke creates Enton spikes around him as a barrier. He then proceeds to us Amaterasu to set everything in sight on fire. Ay has no place to run and gets taken out by Amaterasu. Deidara used the same plan against Sasuke. To make matters worse Sasuke can then take to the skies, whilst burning everything in around Ay, to trap him in a circle of Enton. Before finally unleashing Kirin.



With no knowledge Sasuke might lose, but only because he was being arrogant. Now imagine Sasuke with complete knowledge and AY with none?

Ay is hinted at being weaker than his father. Sasuke could defeat the Hachibee. Not even Sandaime Raikage could beat 8 tails. Once again placing Sasuke higher on the general scale. 


> 8. I don’t think ‘needing’ your strongest Technique to beat someone, but still ultimately winning, makes you ‘necessarily’ the same ‘Tier’. Are you going to apply that same standard to Itachi where anyone he ‘needs’ Susanoo to beat he’s the same ‘Tier’ as?


No, but if Itachi's only hope of beating someone was the Totsuka, then I would consider them close in level. 


> 9. You also keep bringing up the Naruto and B thing, but Itachi engaged Naruto and B, and couldnt do anything meaningful to them; and then later Base-B fought Itachi successfully solo. In the smaller time frame with Naruto and B using more powerful abilities, Nagato had them seemingly ‘beat’ (maybe B could have gone BM). So isn’t that Nagato greatly outperforming Itachi, by your own standard?


Now you are trolling. I have already shown Itachi was dominating Bee with ease. He had to warn Bee, that he had just blitzed him. KCM Naruto had to stop him blitzing the first time and he had to pull his punches to not kill him when he placed Bee under genjutsu for some time.


> 10. Hell Paths invisibility is not the same as the Chameleons; so false equivalence


Yes it is actually better, since Hell Path cannot even be sensed, where as sensors can sense the chameleon.


> 11.  Even if we say Hashiraman cells increase physical strength, it’s still an increase on Kabuto Base, which if insufficient he can still be bellow Jiraiya and Naruto.


Jiraiya is quite strong, but Naruto is not that great in base. Kimimaro bones also would increase his strength. Even a weak SM user is exceptionally stronger. At best you are accusing Kabuto of being the poorest billionaire.


> 12. Look man we were directly told Nagato couldn’t deal with Totsuka due Itachi taking out  shared vision; this tells us with shared vision for whatever reason he wouldn’t have been blitz’s. So you can’t use Nagato feats with shared vision and apply them to Totsuka speed. I’m not going to repeat myself again; I will drop this entire portion of the discussion.


Yes of course everyone is better with shared vision, but we see his reaction feats without them and they are top tier. He is also an amazing sensor, which puts his reflexes as top tier anyway. 

I personally think Tobirama's reaction speed is so high, because of his sensing ability. 


> As far as  Edo Nagato being stronger then the ‘Paths’ that doesn’t mean his ability to react was superior to Deva Path’s. But I also don’t know why you are so high on Deva Paths physical reaction speed. Base-Naruto kept up with him fine in Taijutsu and SM-Naruto clowned him:
> 
> So I don’t see why something that could blitz Deva Realm (which you haven’t even proven) would be above Max Speed Ei Shunshin in speed.


No Base Naruto did not keep up with Deva Realm. He was beaten in literally a couple of seconds. After CT, fighting off the 6 tails, etc, fending off SM Naruto again, Deva is finally out of chakra. Base Naruto hits him at the end, when he collapses.

Nagato is the one controlling Deva realm, of course he has faster reactions than his puppets. It's like questioning if Sasori has faster reactions than the puppets. He obviously does, because he is transmitting the chakra there.


> 13. Naruto didn’t react to the same attack; Obito didn’t use Shunshin there; again this is the last time I repeat myself


I am done with this point. You are determined to wank Tobirama, despite being shown countless panels. 

Whether Tobirama used shunshin or not, he still needed the same time to form the TSB and expand them. Shunshin does not increase the speed of his jutsu. So Tobirama had time to react to the creation of the TSB. Less impressive than Naruto.


> 14. Tobirama still reacted to and evaded an attack you claim is from one of the fastest characters in the verse. The fact that Madara eventually hit him (potentially using Rinbo and not speed for all we know); is off little consequence that he showed he could evade an attack of that speed; so show me that Totsuka is faster then that attack or I’m not going to believe it Tags Tobirama


SM Naruto easily smashed Jubito, without being attacked. Fighting speed is not shunshin speed as we know. Nothing suggest BSM Madara's fighting speed is out of this world. 

People can mentally react to Ay's shunshin. I would bet Ay's shunshin is faster than BSM Madara's punch. 


> 15. How is Base B bellow 3T Itachi when he fought equally with him and forced him back. And I see no way short of maybe Izanami that 3T Itachi can beat Orochimaru who has his rege, P1 Edos, and Yamata no Orochi


We have been through this. Itachi had Bee in serious trouble 3 times.
1. KCM Naruto saved him.
2. Itachi warned him.
3. Itachi purposely used a weak attack.

Well  3T Itachi did. Apart from part 1 Edo's who were much weaker he had Yamata no Orochi, Edo Tensei and regeneration. He still got stomped, not even beaten, stomped with no difficulty by 3T Itachi. 

The same way Bee would have been stomped had Itachi been serious. After the genjutsu worked all he had to do was blitz Bee and slit his throat. He had already blitzed non-genjutsu Bee twice.

Once more you are arguing with the manga.


> So maybe before you get too far ahead of yourself; you should make a Base-B vs 3T Itachi or Orochimaru at Full Power w/ P1 Edos vs 3T Itachi first.


I could do, but it is pointless. We saw these fights on panel and Itachi won. We are not going to agree so we can leave this discussion here.


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Since Orochimaru is the source of the chakra, rather than Kabuto just drawing from the CS. Also he has the Hashirama body.
> 
> This is true, but Living Madara could use the black rod technique without eyes. The point is Edo Rinnegan Madara with the eyes could not use the black rods to paralyse Hashirama at any point. Living Madara did it effortlessly.
> 
> ...



1. But Kabuto has full access to that source....

2. Yeah because the black rods are a Rinnegan ability and the Rinnegan Outer Path wasn’t as strong as a Tensei

3. Source that originals are stronger; unless you just mean they don’t poof when hit

4. Put Itachi in Mu situation, Onoki lightens Gaara Sand; and he pulls Itachi out of Susanoo into Naruto’s Rasengan like they did against Madara. Itachi isn’t lasting long there.

Put Itachi in Sandaime Raikage’s situation and he’d do better but that situation was so tailored for Ei3 to loose with Dodai and B there to feed intel; and Naruto using Hell-Bringer against him; and him not having Amber Pot or seemingly Black Lightening, that it’s hard to evaluate Ei3 on that imo

5.  B never saw Kagatsuchi so that is an invalid argument

6. Totosuka isn’t a ‘Jutsu’; Susanoo is.

7. I’m trolling by saying Nagato did better against B and Naruto; who he had beat; then Itachi who evaded some of their attacks. You are solidly in bias territory now; I will end this conversation if you approach this a point like this again

8. Since when can Edos pull their punches; they are programmed to kill

9. Proof He’ll Path can’t be sensed

10. Kabuto before his upgrades had a 3 in strength. Naruto had a 3.5, so he was solidly ahead. Now if you want to say Kabuto upgrades enhanced his strength some; I can also say Naruto training with Fusaku enhanced his strength as well. The bottom line is we don’t know; and we don’t have any solid ‘feats’ from Kabuto to measure his strength.

11. Cool then show me ‘Nagato’ amazing reaction feats without shared vision.

12. Dude I just showed you a panel of Base Naruto keeping up with Deva....

13. Okay cool then you should have no problem proving Totosuka is faster then SM Rinnegan Madara’s attack; I’ll wait....

14. Yes itachi warned B, but then Base-B fought Itachi fine by himself; showing he didn’t actually need help that warning and was completely able to handle himself against Itachi. That’s the part your Ignoring.

15. So once again, please provide proof that Orochimaru has Regen, Tensei, and Yamata No Orochi when he faced Itachi in the flashback.


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## Reddan (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. But Kabuto has full access to that source....


No he didn't have full access to Orochimaru. Sasuke had to use an unsealing jutsu to get Orochimaru's full power ie Orochimaru out.

He did not have Hashirama's body which do you did not address.


> 2. Yeah because the black rods are a Rinnegan ability and the Rinnegan Outer Path wasn’t as strong as a Tensei


Yet Hashirama and Madara say constantly how he has regained his full strength. Hashirama knew nothing of Rinnegan Madara, but he knew EMS Madara.


> 3. Source that originals are stronger; unless you just mean they don’t poof when hit


I will look for the quotes.


> 4. Put Itachi in Mu situation, Onoki lightens Gaara Sand; and he pulls Itachi out of Susanoo into Naruto’s Rasengan like they did against Madara. Itachi isn’t lasting long there.


Onoki did not even take part. You ignore Amaterasu makes short work of Onoki and Itachi would dodge Gaara's sand all day. However, Muu did not even make it that far, he was taken out by Naruto just extending his chakra arms.

You are saying three kages are going to have to use a combination attack to stop Itachi, but ignore that Itachi can probably use chakra at the bottom of his Susano'o and is smart enough to do so or would reform his Susano'o.

In canon Itachi would probably have switched out with a crow bunshin and then blindside attack Gaara when the crows disperse and stun him.


> Put Itachi in Sandaime Raikage’s situation and he’d do better but that situation was so tailored for Ei3 to loose with Dodai and B there to feed intel; and Naruto using Hell-Bringer against him; and him not having Amber Pot or seemingly Black Lightening, that it’s hard to evaluate Ei3 on that imo


They already had full intel on Itachi. Sasuke, Nagato, Kabuto etc all had virtually full intelligence on Itachi and had been training to counter his techniques. It didn't do them any good.


> 5.  B never saw Kagatsuchi so that is an invalid argument


Actually he did. He saw that Sasuke could control the flames. And the point stands very clearly. Sasuke with knowledge beats Ay. Sasuke can beat far more opponents than Ay can, including the 8 tails. Bee would know Ay has no answer to the power of the 8 tails, from stories about Ay helping restrain the 8 tails etc. He just saw Sasuke display the power to take out the 8 tails.


> 6. Totosuka isn’t a ‘Jutsu’; Susanoo is.


It's Itachi's most powerful attack. Susano'o is a support jutsu, which allows defense and attack. I would compare it to SM or Tsunade's seal.


> 7. I’m trolling by saying Nagato did better against B and Naruto; who he had beat; then Itachi who evaded some of their attacks. You are solidly in bias territory now; I will end this conversation if you approach this a point like this again


No you were trolling saying Bee fought Itachi evenly. Nagato went all out and decimated them. Itachi then kept up with that Nagato.


> 8. Since when can Edos pull their punches; they are programmed to kill


All the time.
Deidara pulled his punches, because he wanted to fight in an artistic way.
Gengetsu was pulling punches too.


> 9. Proof He’ll Path can’t be sensed


SM Naruto did not sense him resurrecting the Pains.


> 10. Kabuto before his upgrades had a 3 in strength. Naruto had a 3.5, so he was solidly ahead. Now if you want to say Kabuto upgrades enhanced his strength some; I can also say Naruto training with Fusaku enhanced his strength as well. The bottom line is we don’t know; and we don’t have any solid ‘feats’ from Kabuto to measure his strength.


So you don't think Jirobu, Hashirama and Kimimaro cells enhanced his strength by just .5? LOL. Again you are arguing about him being the poorest billionaire. Either way his strength would be immense and way beyond the average ninja.


> 11. Cool then show me ‘Nagato’ amazing reaction feats without shared vision.


Controlling Deva


> 12. Dude I just showed you a panel of Base Naruto keeping up with Deva....


He was swung a punch, it was blocked and he was being easily driven back. The toads tried to interfere, but they were useless.


> 13. Okay cool then you should have no problem proving Totosuka is faster then SM Rinnegan Madara’s attack; I’ll wait....


I have done so already.  Nagato=SM Naruto reflexes>Tobirama


> 14. Yes itachi wanted B, but then Base-B fought Itachi fine by himself; showing he didn’t actually need help that warning and was completely able to handle himself against Itachi. That’s the part your Ignoring.


?
The first attack KCM Naruto defended him. Bee was completely caught off guard.
The second time without warning he would have been blitzed. He did not fight fine after he got put in genjutsu.


> 15. So once again, please provide proof that Orochimaru has Regen, Tensei, and Yamata No Orochi when he faced Itachi in the flashback.


I already did. Itachi had felt Yamata no Orochi before and knew the feeling. So Orochimaru must have used it during his Akatsuki days. Pain knew about it too. If Orochimaru had Yamata then he had regen. Sasori sent Kabuto to research Orochimaru's Edo Tensei.



So there you have it, Akatsuki Orochimaru had all three and was beaten by 3T Itachi. A feat putting 3T above Old Hiruzen and all of the current Gokage. A feat he did with no difficulty.

Not a surprise when he was giving Samehada Base Bee the run around, another ninja greater than the Gokage.


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## MShadows (Oct 17, 2019)

Can we get this fiery debate to reach 10 pages?


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## OneShotPerfected (Oct 17, 2019)

Some people voted group A. Some Kage-level trolls right there


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## Haseyo (Oct 18, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Ok we disagree on this. We both agree on Totsuka blitzing Nagato.


It was not a speed blitz, Nagato didn't see anything due to the generated smoke, which is clearly seen on here *Link Removed*

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Oct 18, 2019)

Haseyo said:


> It was not a speed blitz, Nagato didn't see anything due to the generated smoke, which is clearly seen on here *Link Removed*


This, I mean... how is that a blitz? The dude couldn't even see because of the smoke and dust. 

Itachi simply caught him off guard.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Oct 18, 2019)

Reddan said:


> No he didn't have full access to Orochimaru. Sasuke had to use an unsealing jutsu to get Orochimaru's full power ie Orochimaru out.
> 
> He did not have Hashirama's body which do you did not address.
> 
> ...


1. Sasuke had to use a sealing Technique to get Orochimaru out of the seal, but Kabuto was shown able to draw Orochimaru chakra out of that seal. So can you quote me where it says that Kabuto couldn’t draw out Orochimaru’s full chakra of Anko Seal? 

2. And I agree he got stronger as a non Edo, I just don’t agree he got way stronger and that your examples are applicable 

3. K get back to me when you have them

4. Onoki fought Mu the entire time before Naruto and Gaara got there; so he did take a huge part; and Gaara used his sand to counter Mu flight and Invis for Naruto; so I think it’s more then fair that he uses his Sand to counter Susanoo; and then from there Naruto can use chakr arms to defeat Itachi or FRS; it doesn’t really matter 

Those aren’t the same scenario as Ei3, so it’s not applicable 

5. He saw that Sasuke could turn the flames off, not shape manipulate them; so no B didn’t know about Enron Kagatsuchi.

6. No Susanoo wielding Totsuka is Itachi’s Strongest attack; his strongest Jutsu is what makes this possible, IE Susanoo

7-8. Choosing to not use your best Technique doesn’t mean your ‘holding back’ with whatever Technique your using. So you can suggest another Technique Itachi could have used there then throwing Shuriken, but it’s not like he could slow his attack down

9. Sensing only works when your actively sensing the target; later on when Naruto does actively sense; he sense Hell Path:

10. No as I said even if they did Sage Training could have enhanced Naruto strength as well. Unless you show me feats I’m not going to grant Kabuto strength at the level of toss Boss Summons when he showed nowhere near that 

11. Nagato isn’t Deva, but sure show me Deva amazing reaction feats without Shared Vision


12. No he throws one punch in the first panel; and then in the second one he throws 5 more, all blocked by Base Naruto. Then they continue to fight off panel as in the middle left panel we still see them fighting:

13. So SM Naruto is > SM Rinnegan Madara? 

14. Proof he would have been blitz’s

15. Or Itachi just found out about it after Orochimaru Akatsuki days; as it’s clear the organization was still keeping tabs on him. if Sasori sent Kabuto this mostly likely happened after his Akatsuki days as before he was Sasori partner


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## Reddan (Oct 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Sasuke had to use a sealing Technique to get Orochimaru out of the seal, but Kabuto was shown able to draw Orochimaru chakra out of that seal. So can you quote me where it says that Kabuto couldn’t draw out Orochimaru’s full chakra of Anko Seal?


Yes exactly to get Orochimaru's full power out you had to unseal the Curse Mark. Kabuto was only able to get part of his power. 

Once more respond to the Hashirama cells, or cease the arguen. 


> 2. And I agree he got stronger as a non Edo, I just don’t agree he got way stronger and that your examples are applicable


We disagree and Madara and Hashirama disagree with you.


> 3. K get back to me when you have them


I withdraw this point and concede for now. I have not had enough time to look at them.


> 4. Onoki fought Mu the entire time before Naruto and Gaara got there; so he did take a huge part; and Gaara used his sand to counter Mu flight and Invis for Naruto; so I think it’s more then fair that he uses his Sand to counter Susanoo; and then from there Naruto can use chakr arms to defeat Itachi or FRS; it doesn’t really matter


Itachi would just easily reform Susano'o. Itachi can use the Yata to block from below or just use his Susano'o hand to protect him. It's fairly obviously Susano'o can create chakra below.

Muu fighting Onoki had nothing to do with his loss. He wasn't tired just blitzed.

Naruto also did not need Gaara's help, he used it because it was convenient and there. He would just use a KB and achieve the exact same feat.


> Those aren’t the same scenario as Ei3, so it’s not applicable


No it is. Naruto had full knowledge, time, training and experience training against a sharingan user. He had none of the sort against Sandaime.


> 5. He saw that Sasuke could turn the flames off, not shape manipulate them; so no B didn’t know about Enron Kagatsuchi.


He knew enough that Sasuke could control the flames. As I showed Sasuke with full knowledge beats Ay. He saw that Sasuke could beat an opponent, Ay could not, Sandaime Raikage could only draw too and Minato probably as well. 


> 6. No Susanoo wielding Totsuka is Itachi’s Strongest attack; his strongest Jutsu is what makes this possible, IE Susanoo


We will disagree. It's like calling SM Jiraiya's strongest jutsu.


> 7-8. Choosing to not use your best Technique doesn’t mean your ‘holding back’ with whatever Technique your using. So you can suggest another Technique Itachi could have used there then throwing Shuriken, but it’s not like he could slow his attack down


It wasn't even choosing not to use his best techique, he used one of his slower techniques and took his time using it. He was deliberately going easy on them just as Hanzo, Sasori etc did before. 


> 9. Sensing only works when your actively sensing the target; later on when Naruto does actively sense; he sense Hell Path:


Your link is not working and I am not home to check the books.


> 10. No as I said even if they did Sage Training could have enhanced Naruto strength as well. Unless you show me feats I’m not going to grant Kabuto strength at the level of toss Boss Summons when he showed nowhere near that


You are changing the argument to not concede the obvious point.

All SM users have monstrous strength. Itachi dealt with Kabuto's strength. Every SM user we have seen, had sensing, greater speed, greater strength and more powerful jutsu. Please give me a reason why Kabuto would be the exception.


> 11. Nagato isn’t Deva, but sure show me Deva amazing reaction feats without Shared Vision


Nagato controls Deva like a puppet. It's like asking me to proof Sasori move a puppet out of the way, is not his reaction speed. Again a clear point.


> 12. No he throws one punch in the first panel; and then in the second one he throws 5 more, all blocked by Base Naruto. Then they continue to fight off panel as in the middle left panel we still see them fighting:


This is fair he is being driven back, but keeping up somewhat and being overwhelmed. Taijutsu does not seem to be Deva's speciality or striking speed, but his reactions are top tier as seen by all the times he avoided FRS


> 13. So SM Naruto is > SM Rinnegan Madara?


In reaction speed, there probably is not a big difference between them. However, that is meaningless. Ay>Minato in reactions, but Minato>Ay in battle.


> 14. Proof he would have been blitz’s


I have provided the proof. Nagato's reflexes are top tier. Nobody except BSM Naruto and above have the reactions to dodge.


> 15. Or Itachi just found out about it after Orochimaru Akatsuki days; as it’s clear the organization was still keeping tabs on him. if Sasori sent Kabuto this mostly likely happened after his Akatsuki days as before he was Sasori partner


Itachi clearly says he KNOWS the FEELING, so it is not something he heard about, but actually experienced before.

Yes, but Kabuto knowing about it also implies he saw Orochimaru use it.


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## Turrin (Oct 19, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Yes exactly to get Orochimaru's full power out you had to unseal the Curse Mark. Kabuto was only able to get part of his power.
> 
> Once more respond to the Hashirama cells, or cease the arguen.
> 
> ...


1. Where does it say Kabuto could only get a part?

2. Not they don’t.. they agree Madara got stronger, but ‘way’ stronger outside Rinnegan nothing suggests that.

3. The combo countered Madara and his Susanoo so I’m not going to be convinced it doesn’t counter Itachi. We’ll have to agree to disagree here 

And what we are shown is Team effort, and you said put Itachi in that situation, so he’s going to face the individuals present in that situation. Trying to say Naruto could do it on his own, is trying to scale back the situation now that you realize Itachi could loose under similar circumstance.

4. I don’t deny that Naruto had knowledge on Itachi, but he had knowledge on Ei3; and Ei3 lacked the Amber Jar and may not have been able to use Black Lighting 

5. Knowing Sasuke can control the flames to turn them on and off; is not the same thing as being able to shape manipulate them: Kumo Ninja were surprised to see Sasuke shape manipulate the flames in the battle with Ei, despite the fact that they were briefed on Sasuke battle with B.

6.  Okay we can disagree but then your not convincing me on the idea that someone is the same ‘level’ as Nagato if he needs his ‘strongest’ Jutsu to win, because I don’t agree that people are on the same ‘level’ as Itachi simply because he needs Susanoo to win.


7. What other technique could 3T Itachi use there 

8. 
9. Having greater strength does not mean equivalent to Naruto or Jiraiya. I’m not doubting Itachi ability to fight with high strength opponents he faced KCM Naruto in Taijutsu after all

10. The difference being that this puppet has greater physical ability then Nagato

11. Avoiding FRS at Long range is fine but; it’s certainly not some amazing reaction feat on par with Minato evading Ei max speed punch at Short range 

12. There’s not a big difference? When Blind Madara before SM was bullying SM Naruto; come on man....

Okay so again show me that Totosuka blade is faster then SM Rinnegan Masada

13. You cited Deva Realms reflexes and so far the only example you gave me was him evading FRS at Long-Range, which is far less impressive then what  Minato and Tobirama evaded. So this Nagato argument doesn’t work

14. So again he found out about it; or saw it after Orochimaru left. 

So can you prove that happened before Orochimaru left


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## Reddan (Oct 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Where does it say Kabuto could only get a part?


Where does it say he had access to his full power? Where is it implied that draining a CS gives you Orochimaru's full power and not just a part on it.


> 2. Not they don’t.. they agree Madara got stronger, but ‘way’ stronger outside Rinnegan nothing suggests that.


Hashirama is determined to not allow him to come back to his life.


> 3. The combo countered Madara and his Susanoo so I’m not going to be convinced it doesn’t counter Itachi. We’ll have to agree to disagree here


Madara is not Itachi. Madara was an Edo was fighting without 'grace' he is more arrogant than Itachi and they have different fighting styles. The same way EMS Sasuke with Perfect Susano'o is not Itachi. 


> And what we are shown is Team effort, and you said put Itachi in that situation, so he’s going to face the individuals present in that situation. Trying to say Naruto could do it on his own, is trying to scale back the situation now that you realize Itachi could loose under similar circumstance.


No I think Itachi would win in that situation. One shot of Amaterasu is all it takes to finish Onoki. However, I want to emphasis the gap in power. 

KCM Naruto alone is enough ton finish Muu in seconds. 


> 4. I don’t deny that Naruto had knowledge on Itachi, but he had knowledge on Ei3; and Ei3 lacked the Amber Jar and may not have been able to use Black Lighting


Exactly and look at the difference in performance. For me by feats and hype Ay 3 is the most powerful non Hokage kage. Not having the Amber Pot weakens him, BUT if he can't use black lightning then that is just another example of Edos being weaker.


> 5. Knowing Sasuke can control the flames to turn them on and off; is not the same thing as being able to shape manipulate them: Kumo Ninja were surprised to see Sasuke shape manipulate the flames in the battle with Ei, despite the fact that they were briefed on Sasuke battle with B.


No, but Sasuke would still be the first person in ninja times to turn off the Amaterasu, which is impressive.

You still have not countered Sasuke being able to take down 8 tails. 
Ay definitely could not, Sandaime Raikage could only draw and Minato could probably only draw too.

This is precisely why Bee is unsure. 


> 6.  Okay we can disagree but then your not convincing me on the idea that someone is the same ‘level’ as Nagato if he needs his ‘strongest’ Jutsu to win, because I don’t agree that people are on the same ‘level’ as Itachi simply because he needs Susanoo to win.


It's a few others things. 
Nagato and Itachi being partnered together. 
Nagato and Itachi saying they can accomplish anything together.
Both thinking they are gods.

Then Itachi was able to counter all of Nagato's best techniques like shared vision, the Cerberus summon and seal him.


> 7. What other technique could 3T Itachi use there


The water jutsu he used on Kabto.
A more powerful katon. 
Shunshin in for a fatal stab.

This is just what we know of, Itachi has copied many jutsu in his time.


> 8.


Yes this suggest he can sense it, but cannot see it. So Itachi can see things, which are invisible to ninas.


> 9. Having greater strength does not mean equivalent to Naruto or Jiraiya. I’m not doubting Itachi ability to fight with high strength opponents he faced KCM Naruto in Taijutsu after all


Ok lets move on.


> 10. The difference being that this puppet has greater physical ability then Nagato


Being able to react and reacting are different. Nagato's body was physically destroyed and much like Sasuke vs Lee, there would be things he could mentally react too, but could not physically. However, all Nagato has to do is react mentally. Just like Susano'o, Hiraishin etc Nagato only needs a mental reaction and his mental reactions are top tier. Totsuka bltized him before he could even mentally react much like it did to Orochimaru.


> 11. Avoiding FRS at Long range is fine but; it’s certainly not some amazing reaction feat on par with Minato evading Ei max speed punch at Short range


He avoided it in close range too, when Naruto hid in the shadow of the other FRS or used transformation. Several times he had to dodge it from near point blank range and he managed to.


> 12. There’s not a big difference? When Blind Madara before SM was bullying SM Naruto; come on man....


Fighting power is not just about reactions. Kakashi probably has better reactions than Gai, but would be decimated.


> Okay so again show me that Totosuka blade is faster then SM Rinnegan Masada


Blitzing ninjas before they could even mentally react. Every time it has been used the ninja has been hit before they have even processed this. I don't think we have ever seen a high level ninja blitzed so badly they did not even know they had been stabbed.


> 13. You cited Deva Realms reflexes and so far the only example you gave me was him evading FRS at Long-Range, which is far less impressive then what  Minato and Tobirama evaded. So this Nagato argument doesn’t work


He did it at close range many times. If you want I will give you the pages or post them when I am home.


> 14. So again he found out about it; or saw it after Orochimaru left.
> 
> So can you prove that happened before Orochimaru left


No it's not something he found about, because as I said he knows the feeling. You cannot know the feeling by hearing of something.

You need to provide proof that Itachi and Orochimaru ever met again.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 19, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Yes this suggest he can sense it, but cannot see it. So Itachi can see things, which are invisible to ninas.



You ninjas... it was actually summoned.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Oct 19, 2019)

MShadows said:


> This, I mean... how is that a blitz? The dude couldn't even see because of the smoke and dust.
> 
> Itachi simply caught him off guard.



Enough distance between Nagato and  the edge of Smoke cloud

+

The fact that Nagato mentally responds to KMC-tier attacks at intimate ranges



Makes it - at the very least - a partial blitz on totsuka's part.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Where does it say he had access to his full power? Where is it implied that draining a CS gives you Orochimaru's full power and not just a part on it.
> 
> Hashirama is determined to not allow him to come back to his life.
> 
> ...



1.Your making the claim that he didn’t have access to Orochimaru full chakra so the burden of proof is on you; so I’ll ask again, where is the proof. 

2. Yeah because he would be stronger; that isn’t the issue; it’s whether he would be ‘way’ stronger  (outside Rinnegan)

3. Yeah Madara isn’t Itachi; he’s way stronger; so nah your going a bridge too far for me to believe Itachi outperforms Masada here

4. Or it’s a special case like Rinnegan; doesn’t really matter, the point is it’s hard to evaluate Ei based on that scenario 

5. It being impressive wasn’t the point; the point is the way you outlined Sasuke beating Ei4 wouldn’t work; so again how does Sasuke with only what B saw beat Ei4

6. There is no reason to counter it Sasuke didn’t take down Hachibi; he took down a Kwarimi; he also had Suigetsu there to deflect a TBB for him, which would have otherwise obliterated him before he even used Amaterasu. So Sasuke would have lost there easily 

7. So Kisame is equal to Itachi because they are partnered together? Yeah not buying it.

8. Water Jutsu would be absorbed by Samehada easily; and Katon would be tanked by B or blocked by partial transformation as his Katon Shuriken would be. Itachi slashing at B would be blocked by B; if he was able to blocked by B if he was able to easily block multiple Shuriken attacks at the same time and force Itachi back in CQC right after this. 

9. Okay and this doesn’t change the fact that it’s invisible due to a different mechanics then Chameleon. Not all invisibility is the same; that’s false equivalency. 

10. Nagato physical body clearly has an effect on how quickly he can react period; in terms of using Jutsu as well. Otherwise Kabuto wouldn’t have stated Shared vision would have made a difference; as it’s not like Shared vision is going to allow him to physically move his crippled legs faster. 

11. Even dodging it from close range is nowhere near at the level of max speed Ei4; I mean Ei3 dodges FRS from close range even more impressively then Deva and he wasn’t as fast as Ei4. BZ also reacted to it at close range without issue; and so on. 

12. Were not talking fighting power overall; we’re talking speed; Blind Madara seemed to be around the same speed as SM Naruto; so why would SM Rinnegan Madara still be around that level?

13.  Again he could have seen Orochimaru use it after their encounter. And no I don’t have to provide proof of anything; you asserting he had those abilities when they met, so the burden of proof is on you. I’m only saying from what we know Current Orochimaru can regenerate from his hand being sliced off and can still use his strongest Jutsu Yamata no Orochi without his hands


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## Reddan (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1.Your making the claim that he didn’t have access to Orochimaru full chakra so the burden of proof is on you; so I’ll ask again, where is the proof.


No you are making the claim he did. You need to provide proof that the CS provides you with full access to Orochimaru's chakra. If so then Anko and Part 1 Sasuke would have been a lot stronger. I have consistent evidence from the manga showing that the CS only gave access to a part of Orochimaru's chakra.


> 2. Yeah because he would be stronger; that isn’t the issue; it’s whether he would be ‘way’ stronger  (outside Rinnegan)


The difference was enough for Hashirama to not be confident of beating him even with help. 


> 3. Yeah Madara isn’t Itachi; he’s way stronger; so nah your going a bridge too far for me to believe Itachi outperforms Masada here


Way stronger with certain jutsu and when going all out. He is not better at combat. Even RS Sasuke, right at the manga was told by Zetsu, he was not as intelligent as Itachi. Itachi and Madara have very different fighting styles.


> 4. Or it’s a special case like Rinnegan; doesn’t really matter, the point is it’s hard to evaluate Ei based on that scenario


It was not mentioned so we have to go with what we have. We saw a lot of Ay  and that was his level. 


> 5. It being impressive wasn’t the point; the point is the way you outlined Sasuke beating Ei4 wouldn’t work; so again how does Sasuke with only what B saw beat Ei4


I gave you an example of how Sasuke easily beats Ay. He sets up a perimetre of Enton spokes and then proceeds to try and snipe him with Amaterasu. Once the ground is covered in flames he easily tags Ay.

However, even if he could not beat Ay, that would be due to the bad match up. He can beat several people portrayed to be stronger than Ay like Onoki, Tsunade and the 8 tails. 


> 6. There is no reason to counter it Sasuke didn’t take down Hachibi; he took down a Kwarimi; he also had Suigetsu there to deflect a TBB for him, which would have otherwise obliterated him before he even used Amaterasu. So Sasuke would have lost there easily


Sasuke did take down the 8 tails. He had an attack the 8 tails could not counter. How many ninjas have attacks capable of taking down a Bijui especially the 8 tails the second most powerful Biju.


> 7. So Kisame is equal to Itachi because they are partnered together? Yeah not buying it.


No, but Kisame's strength was actually praised, because he was chosen to be Itachi's partner.

Also I did not just use that one example, I brought up several other times where their powers were compared.


> 8. Water Jutsu would be absorbed by Samehada easily; and Katon would be tanked by B or blocked by partial transformation as his Katon Shuriken would be. Itachi slashing at B would be blocked by B; if he was able to blocked by B if he was able to easily block multiple Shuriken attacks at the same time and force Itachi back in CQC right after this.


An exploding bunshin would do lots of damage and we don't know all of Itachi's other options. 

We do know he was taking the fight easy, by not using MS. So he was fighting at a lower fighting speed, than he could. 


> 9. Okay and this doesn’t change the fact that it’s invisible due to a different mechanics then Chameleon. Not all invisibility is the same; that’s false equivalency.


Yes it's invisibility seems to be on a greater level. Itachi had no problems seeing it.


> 10. Nagato physical body clearly has an effect on how quickly he can react period; in terms of using Jutsu as well. Otherwise Kabuto wouldn’t have stated Shared vision would have made a difference; as it’s not like Shared vision is going to allow him to physically move his crippled legs faster.


Shared vision is like Byakugan. It improves reactions, because you can see things clearer and from more angles. Nagato's reflexes are boosted by shared vision, but even without them they are amazing as shown by by his control of Deva Realm. 


> 11. Even dodging it from close range is nowhere near at the level of max speed Ei4; I mean Ei3 dodges FRS from close range even more impressively then Deva and he wasn’t as fast as Ei4. BZ also reacted to it at close range without issue; and so on.


Ay 4 can run faster than he can react to as can Minato and even Kakashi. 
Dodging these was just if not more impressive than Sandaime Raikgae as was blocking all of SM Naruto's attacks.


Reacting to V2 6 tails speed.


> 12. Were not talking fighting power overall; we’re talking speed; Blind Madara seemed to be around the same speed as SM Naruto; so why would SM Rinnegan Madara still be around that level?


Because Sage Sensing is amazing. Having the Rinnengan is not going to improve his reactions much, because they are already so high. It is a bit like I don't think KCM improved Minato's reactions much at all. 


> 13.  Again he could have seen Orochimaru use it after their encounter. And no I don’t have to provide proof of anything; you asserting he had those abilities when they met, so the burden of proof is on you. I’m only saying from what we know Current Orochimaru can regenerate from his hand being sliced off and can still use his strongest Jutsu Yamata no Orochi without his hands


No the burden of proof is on you. Orochimaru clearly says he left the organisation, because Itachi was too strong for him. He does not believe he has any chance of fighting Itachi, unless he takes over his body. So why would they suddenly meet again? In what circumstances would Orochimaru be using his Hydra? If they had another fight why wouldn't it have been noted or mentioned. 

Ockham's Razor clearly applies here. The explanation, which does not require us to create an entire fanfiction book is the correct one. Itachi saw Orochimaru use Hydra technique in their Akatsuki days and when he beat him, Orochimaru had it.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Reddan said:


> No you are making the claim he did. You need to provide proof that the CS provides you with full access to Orochimaru's chakra. If so then Anko and Part 1 Sasuke would have been a lot stronger. I have consistent evidence from the manga showing that the CS only gave access to a part of Orochimaru's chakra.
> 
> The difference was enough for Hashirama to not be confident of beating him even with help.
> 
> ...



1.  No you are making the claim to support the idea that Kabuto Tensei are inferior to Orochimaru’s; unlike what Kabuto aftually tells us 
, that he’s better at Edo Tensei then Orochimaru

2. Their battle was already close, so of course he wouldn’t be confident he could beat Madara after any kind of boost; even a small one

3. I’m dropping this point your not going to convince me so yeah....

4. It was mentioned that he had Black Lightening.... In terms of whether it would have made a difference or if he even couldn’t use it IDK. But I told you at the beginning of this I’m not sure Ei3 is on Itachi ‘level’ anyway and depends on what he could do with Black Lightening and the Amber Jar. I don’t disagree that going off what he showed without these things he’s inferior to Itachi. So I’m honestly not sure what your trying to accomplish with this point 

5. Yes using ‘Enron’ a Technique B didn’t know about and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion, we’ve been through this and I will ignore this point from now on as you are just repeating an argument that was already countered

6. Please tell me how Sasuke would have survived the TBB without Suigetsu there.

7. So Kisame isn’t Itachi’s level despite them being partnered and this therefore a useless example. Your bringing up other points doesn’t make this point anymore valid 

8. Exploding Bushin is unlikely to do enough damage to significantly harm B, he’s incredibly durable tanking Ei Lariate and actually overpowering it. And B also wasn’t taking the fight seriously as he could up his speed with V1/2. The point is B was very comfortable taking 3T Itachi on; and nothing indicates to me 3T Itachi could easily beat B

9. Proof it’s greater level

10. Yes and this compensated for his physical state, but Kabuto wouldn’t also cite his physical state if Nagato simply couldn’t react due to missing shared vision. His physical state obviously effected his ability to react with Jutsu as well.

11. You seem to be confusing the idea of something being ‘impressive’ and something demonstrating reflexes fast enough to react to Ei Max Speed. If you want to prove Deva can react to Ei Max Speed, you need to show KN6 or FRS attacks are above Ei’s max speed. Which your not doing.

12. So he goes from around SM Naruto’s level without this amazing Sage Sensing; but then he gains this amazing Sage Sensing and is still on that level. Makes no sense to me

13. The discussion isn’t about if Itachi is Stronger; he is. It’s about you insisting 3T Itachi is stronger then Current Orochimaru; and I asked you for proof them that Orochimaru didn’t become stronger because from what we know what Itachi used in the flashback wouldn’t defeat current Orochimaru. 

You asserted because he was aware of Yamata no Orochi he must have had it back then. But it’s not like he used it in the flashback; so where did he see Orochimaru use Yamata back then?


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## Reddan (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1.  No you are making the claim to support the idea that Kabuto Tensei are inferior to Orochimaru’s; unlike what Kabuto aftually tells us
> , that he’s better at Edo Tensei then Orochimaru


Yes he was better, because he made improvements to the technique. Orochimaru's Edo Tensei were fodder compared to their their strengths in their prime. Hashirama the God of Shinobi was just low kage.

However, Orochimaru's WA Edo's are better. This was what we are debating. He had Kabuto's knowledge of how to improve the technique, he had his more of his own chakra (needed to improve the technique and Hashirama cells. The point was 
WA Orochimar Edo's>Kabuto's>Part 1 Orochimaru>Tobirama.


> 2. Their battle was already close, so of course he wouldn’t be confident he could beat Madara after any kind of boost; even a small one


Yes, but he seems very panicked by the prospect.


> 4. It was mentioned that he had Black Lightening.... In terms of whether it would have made a difference or if he even couldn’t use it IDK. But I told you at the beginning of this I’m not sure Ei3 is on Itachi ‘level’ anyway and depends on what he could do with Black Lightening and the Amber Jar. I don’t disagree that going off what he showed without these things he’s inferior to Itachi. So I’m honestly not sure what your trying to accomplish with this point


The point is if he can't do black lightning it is an example of Edo's being weaker.

Sandaime Raikage is just unlucky Naruto went his direction. We saw with Muu, as soon as KCM Naruto came along the kages were ended in seconds. Literally seconds. Gengetsu got time to show his power off, because Naruto went right.

As for Sandaime Raikage by feats and portrayal he is above Muu and Gengetsu. He is the one ninja that Kin/Gin respected. Kin/Gin>>>>Muu + Gengetsu.


> 5. Yes using ‘Enron’ a Technique B didn’t know about and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion, we’ve been through this and I will ignore this point from now on as you are just repeating an argument that was already countered


Bee did not have to see every technique Sasuke had. He saw enough to put Sasuke on that level.


> 6. Please tell me how Sasuke would have survived the TBB without Suigetsu there.


Reverse summoning with Aoba or use Aoba and other snakes to tank the majority of the damage. 


> 7. So Kisame isn’t Itachi’s level despite them being partnered and this therefore a useless example. Your bringing up other points doesn’t make this point anymore valid


The other points are very valid and you have yet to disprove them.


> 8. Exploding Bushin is unlikely to do enough damage to significantly harm B, he’s incredibly durable tanking Ei Lariate and actually overpowering it. And B also wasn’t taking the fight seriously as he could up his speed with V1/2. The point is B was very comfortable taking 3T Itachi on; and nothing indicates to me 3T Itachi could easily beat B


No he wasn't. He was blitzed by Itachi's shunshin and had to be told where Itachi was. We've been through this, that when your opponent is easily getting to your back, you are being outclassed. Itachi had to warn Bee, because he was in trouble.

Exploding bunshin would do some damage and yes Bee could step up his level, but it wasn't going to make any difference.


> 9. Proof it’s greater level


It does not need to camouflage itself. 


> 10. Yes and this compensated for his physical state, but Kabuto wouldn’t also cite his physical state if Nagato simply couldn’t react due to missing shared vision. His physical state obviously effected his ability to react with Jutsu as well.


He complained about his mobility, which wasn't really an issue, because he got blitzed. Perhaps a hypothetical fully fit Nagato, would have EVEN greater reactions, but that barely matters in this scenario, because Nagato crippled still had better reactions than virtually every other ninja.


> 11. You seem to be confusing the idea of something being ‘impressive’ and something demonstrating reflexes fast enough to react to Ei Max Speed. If you want to prove Deva can react to Ei Max Speed, you need to show KN6 or FRS attacks are above Ei’s max speed. Which your not doing.


I actually don't think KN6 is above Ay's max speed, but I do think they are close and V2 Bee blitzing Kisame, significantly weaker Kin KN6 (had no bondes) blitzing Darui. Dauri blitzed Base Kin/Gin and has reflexes to keep up with Raiton shroud Ay. 

So I think whilst Ay and Minato are faster, KN6 is close to this level.

Deva can react.


> 12. So he goes from around SM Naruto’s level without this amazing Sage Sensing; but then he gains this amazing Sage Sensing and is still on that level. Makes no sense to me


I thought you were talking about Blind Sage Mode Madara and when he gets the Rinnegan. 

Edo Rinnegan Madara never shows physical speed to react to SM. Correct me if I am wrong, he only blocks with Susano'o and Rinnegan absorption, techniques initiated by thought alone.


> 13. The discussion isn’t about if Itachi is Stronger; he is. It’s about you insisting 3T Itachi is stronger then Current Orochimaru; and I asked you for proof them that Orochimaru didn’t become stronger because from what we know what Itachi used in the flashback wouldn’t defeat current Orochimaru.
> 
> You asserted because he was aware of Yamata no Orochi he must have had it back then. But it’s not like he used it in the flashback; so where did he see Orochimaru use Yamata back then?


No stop being dishonest. Use the EXACT words. Itachi is not just AWARE of the technique, he has felt it before.

Akatsuki captured a few Biju before the time skip, they were involved in difficult missions. Sasori says joining the Akatsuki was more difficult than killing Sandaime Raikage? I need to check, but he says he had a lot of difficulty in getting in.
Nagato is aware of what Amaterasu feels like, Kisame has seen Itachi use Tsukiyomi before. 
Itachi has witnessed Yamata no Orochi before and the only time would have been when they were in Akatsuki together. Itachi chopping off Orochimaru's arm ended their time together.
Like Hiruzen, Itachi felt taking away all Orochimaru's jutsu was a fitting punishment.


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## Turrin (Oct 21, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Yes he was better, because he made improvements to the technique. Orochimaru's Edo Tensei were fodder compared to their their strengths in their prime. Hashirama the God of Shinobi was just low kage.
> 
> However, Orochimaru's WA Edo's are better. This was what we are debating. He had Kabuto's knowledge of how to improve the technique, he had his more of his own chakra (needed to improve the technique and Hashirama cells. The point was
> WA Orochimar Edo's>Kabuto's>Part 1 Orochimaru>Tobirama.
> ...


1. Yes and you are claiming gaining Kabuto knowledge and Oro having access to more of his chakra allowed him to perform Edo Tensei better; I’ve asked you for proof multiple times of both of these things, and now your saying the burden of proof is on me... it’s not it’s your claim.

2. Of course he would be; Madara becoming even slightly stronger, while he was already nearly defeated by a weaker Madara would leave anyone panicked

3. It’s not necessary an example of Edos normally being weaker though: as we have seen with Rinngan certain abilities simply can’t be fully replicated by Edo Tensei

I don’t know where your getting the idea that Gin and Kin respected Sandaime from. But no Mu and Gengetsu were portrayed above Ei3; as the alliance saw Mu as the biggest threat and sent Onoki there to fight him; Gaara also went to aid Onoki against Mu after defeating Rasa; then when they encountered Gengetsu he again repeats that they thought Mu was the biggest threat and says that underestimated him (but not mention of underestimating Ei3 ever). Ei3 is ether outright weaker then Mu/Gengetsu or he was weaker as an Edo due to lacking the Jar and Black Lightening and the alliance knew this so didn’t single him out as big of a threat as Mu and later Gengetsu.

4. It’s fine if you believe he saw enough to put Sasuke on that ‘level’ but it’s dishonest to argue Sasuke can beat someone using a move B didn’t see, in-order to justify B evaluation of Sasuke’s strength. If you really think B’s statement is valid and includes Minato, then Sasuke needs to be > Ei4 with only what B saw, and close to equal to Minato as well.

So unless you can present a good case that Sasuke, physically weakens from the Itachi fight, with just Basic MS Genjutsu & Amaterasu; NO Susanoo or Enton is >= Minato and. > Ei4, I’m not buying that statement as credible

5. Proof Aoba was even Boss sized back then and could tank a TBB.

Reverse summoning would force Sasuke to flee the battlefield and he would not be able to use Amaterasu on Hachibi. So seems to me he ether runs or he dies; but isn’t beating Hachibi.

6. No they aren’t they are all superficial comparisons like this point, that rely on ‘subjective’ interpretation of the authors intent.

7. How would B stepping up to his level not make a difference; how would 3T Itachi beat V1/2 B?

8. That doesn’t prove anything; it just shows the abilities work differently

9. So now you admit physical ability effects reactions? If so then comparing Nagato reaction to Deva Paths (who is physically fit) is clearly not a good way to assess his abilities

10. Close is not good enough; Deva barely reacted to KN6, so their very fact that you are admitting Ei Max speed is faster, tells me Deva wouldn’t have been able to react in time to Ei; and this tells me Minato with FTG can react to and evade attacks Deva can’t; and therefore your entire argument about Nagato not reacting to Totsuka blade is done

11. I’m talking about living Blind Madara. He was bullying SM Naruto before he got SM; he then got SM and Rinnegan; yet your still saying he’s around SM Naruto’s level still.

12. When did Itachi witness Orochimaru using Yamato in Akatsuki; they were partners so when would he have seen him use it other their fight?


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## MShadows (Oct 21, 2019)

You guys better agree to disagree because this is going nowhere and you're just wasting your time writing essays.


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## Reddan (Oct 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Yes and you are claiming gaining Kabuto knowledge and Oro having access to more of his chakra allowed him to perform Edo Tensei better; I’ve asked you for proof multiple times of both of these things, and now your saying the burden of proof is on me... it’s not it’s your claim.


Don't try and twist this around. You claimed Kabuto had full access to Orochimaru's chakra through the CS mark. I asked you to prove this claim when the manga has shown the opposite.

I already gave you 3 good reasons why WA Orochimaru's Edo was better than Kabuto's.
1. He had all of Kabuto's knowledge on improving the technique.
2. He had full use of his OWN chakra, which Kabuto constantly said was amazing and powered up the technique.
3. He had a Hashirama 'clone' body powering up the jutsu.


> 2. Of course he would be; Madara becoming even slightly stronger, while he was already nearly defeated by a weaker Madara would leave anyone panicked


We won't agree on this. The power up looked especially big.


> 3. It’s not necessary an example of Edos normally being weaker though: as we have seen with Rinngan certain abilities simply can’t be fully replicated by Edo Tensei


This was not said about the black lightning so we it is probably just Edo's being weaker.


> I don’t know where your getting the idea that Gin and Kin respected Sandaime from. But no Mu and Gengetsu were portrayed above Ei3; as the alliance saw Mu as the biggest threat and sent Onoki there to fight him; Gaara also went to aid Onoki against Mu after defeating Rasa; then when they encountered Gengetsu he again repeats that they thought Mu was the biggest threat and says that underestimated him (but not mention of underestimating Ei3 ever). Ei3 is ether outright weaker then Mu/Gengetsu or he was weaker as an Edo due to lacking the Jar and Black Lightening and the alliance knew this so didn’t single him out as big of a threat as Mu and later Gengetsu.


Yes they overrated Muu and Gengetsu teaches them, they should not judge things by their appearance, because he was just as strong if not stronger than Muu.

Muu, however, has a weapon, which fodder cannot counter and wipes out thousands. So they need to send someone strong there.

However, KCM Naruto>>>Gaara+Onoki. He went to deal with Sandaime Raikage.

Kin/Gin showed a complete lack of respect to Tobirama. However, when they saw Darui's black lightning tatoo, they mention he is Sandaime's student and therefore could give them a good fight.


> 4. It’s fine if you believe he saw enough to put Sasuke on that ‘level’ but it’s dishonest to argue Sasuke can beat someone using a move B didn’t see, in-order to justify B evaluation of Sasuke’s strength. If you really think B’s statement is valid and includes Minato, then Sasuke needs to be > Ei4 with only what B saw, and close to equal to Minato as well.


Ay being a bad match up for Sasuke, does not stop Sasuke being stronger overall. There are many opponents like Onoki, Kisame etc Sasuke could beat, but Ay would not.

We both know someone can be generally stronger, but lose to a bad match up. Ay was a bad match up, but Sasuke beats number of people Ay could not, showing he is on a higher level.


> So unless you can present a good case that Sasuke, physically weakens from the Itachi fight, with just Basic MS Genjutsu & Amaterasu; NK Susanoo or Enton is >= Minato and. > Ei4, I’m not buying that statement as credible


Sasuke could beat Onoki, Kisame, Tsunade, Sandaime Raikage several ninja who would beat Ay. You could throw in Muu and Gengetsu too. So with Amaterasu Sasuke is a tier above Ay, even if Ay is a bad match up for him. 

However, your point about Enton is a ridiculous one. Ninjas don't need to see every techniue of their opponent to asses their ability. They can tell from fighting them.

Orochimaru and Jiriaya did not know every technique Kabuto or Kakashi had, but they could tell they were equals.
SM Naruto did not know all of MS Sasukes's techniques, but knew they were equals.

Killerbee saw enough to know Sasuke= or > Minato and obviously Ay too. We know he was right too.


> 5. Proof Aoba was even Boss sized back then and could tank a TBB.


We have no idea of his age, proof to me he wasn't. He is close to Manda in size. Sasuke could use reverse summoning to escape. He planned to use that method against the God Tree.


> Reverse summoning would force Sasuke to flee the battlefield and he would not be able to use Amaterasu on Hachibi. So seems to me he ether runs or he dies; but isn’t beating Hachibi.


Amaterasu is also faster than the Biju Bomb, so Sasuke could just use it first.


> 6. No they aren’t they are all superficial comparisons like this point, that rely on ‘subjective’ interpretation of the authors intent.


Then counter them. Itachi says, he and Nagato can do anything. Itachi has knowledge of virtually everyone, but puts himself and Nagato in the same tier capable of accomplishing anything.


> 7. How would B stepping up to his level not make a difference; how would 3T Itachi beat V1/2 B?


We were talking about Base Bee, but Bee at any level would be taken out easily by MS Itachi.


> 8. That doesn’t prove anything; it just shows the abilities work differently


Well we don't know whether he saw the chameleon or not, but we do know he saw the invisible summon.


> 9. So now you admit physical ability effects reactions? If so then comparing Nagato reaction to Deva Paths (who is physically fit) is clearly not a good way to assess his abilities


No I am saying it is possible, but it does not matter, because Nagato's reactions are better than everyone else.


> 10. Close is not good enough; Deva barely reacted to KN6, so their very fact that you are admitting Ei Max speed is faster, tells me Deva wouldn’t have been able to react in time to Ei; and this tells me Minato with FTG can react to and evade attacks Deva can’t; and therefore your entire argument about Nagato not reacting to Totsuka blade is done


No Deva Path, who has inferior reactions to Nagato reacted. We have direct statements and feats showing us Deva Realm has reactions on par with SM Naruto. He just lacks in taijutsu.

Again not surprising. MS Sasuke probably has better reactions than Base Bee, but Bee is far more skilled at kenjutsu and dominated him.

Minato is not reacting to something Nagato could not even perceive.


> 11. I’m talking about living Blind Madara. He was bullying SM Naruto before he got SM; he then got SM and Rinnegan; yet your still saying he’s around SM Naruto’s level still.


When did this happen?Blind Madara absorbed SM straight away.


> 12. When did Itachi witness Orochimaru using Yamato in Akatsuki; they were partners so when would he have seen him use it other their fight?


They weren't partners, but he witnessed it at some point, because he said he did.


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## Turrin (Oct 21, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Don't try and twist this around. You claimed Kabuto had full access to Orochimaru's chakra through the CS mark. I asked you to prove this claim when the manga has shown the opposite.
> 
> I already gave you 3 good reasons why WA Orochimaru's Edo was better than Kabuto's.
> 1. He had all of Kabuto's knowledge on improving the technique.
> ...


1. We’re going in circles at this point so I’m just going to drop it; even if Orochimaru Edo Tensei was better then Kabuto’s, there is no way to measure how much and no one in the WA commented on characters being significantly weaker, so I don’t think it’s making a major difference ether way, anyway 

2. Okay then we don’t agree on Madara, but I don’t see any evidence other Edos were weaker I even recall Onoki saying Mu Jinton was unchanged since back when he was alive. I just don’t think we are suppose to believe there was some big difference between the Edos and when they were alive unless they were missing tools or a specific ability couldn’t be recreated like Rinnegan. Sure they would have been a bit better physically and chakra wise, but that isn’t making a huge difference. 

3. We don’t know anything about black lightening so I’m not just going to assume this.

4. Yes they underestimated Gengetsu; no mention of Sandaime Raikage.

Naruto went to face Sandaime because he had a high level Fuuton.


5. At best you can argue Ei would turn Sasuke into a bloody mist due to match up; and the two are close outside of matchup; but Minato was portrayed well above Ei4; so this still makes B statement really dubious. 

6. I don’t agree that B fight Sasuke would ‘definitely’ beat those Ninja except Kisame. Feel free to make a thread on it...

7. If Ninja can accurately tell the level of someone just by clashing with them; then fights literally would never happen except among equals  as one Ninja would just back down realizing they are inferior. Orochimaru has really detailed intel on Kabuto and Kakashi; this is way different then saying B somehow accounted for a Jutsu he didn’t even see in his estimate of Sasuke strength 

8. It’s your point that Aoda could block a TBB; the burden of proof is on you.

9. He didn’t use Amaterasu first tho; so that’s irrelevant 

10. Obviously Nagato and Itachi power together would be great; that however doesn’t mean they are equals; there is literally nothing of substance there to counter, which is why I ignored it in the first place 

11. I figured by Base-B he was at least able to use V1 and partial transformations; considering your allowing Itachi 3T. But if B isn’t allowed even V1 or partial transformations then I agree he would loose to 3T Itachi; now put Itachi without Sharingan vs Base-B, and it would be ‘close’, which is a more fair fight considering those conditions.

12. So basically you can’t prove he can see the chameleon, unless you use a false equivalency than Hell Realm Invis is the same as the chameleons; okay moving on from this then

13. Cool then show me Deva realm reacting to something faster then Ei Max Speed. 

14. No he didn’t; he blows Naruto back in the middle panel before he absorbs SM in the bottom one:

Madara is a-lot faster then your giving him credit for. 

15. Okay when and how; give me examples


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## Reddan (Oct 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 2. Okay then we don’t agree on Madara, but I don’t see any evidence other Edos were weaker I even recall Onoki saying Mu Jinton was unchanged since back when he was alive. I just don’t think we are suppose to believe there was some big difference between the Edos and when they were alive unless they were missing tools or a specific ability couldn’t be recreated like Rinnegan. Sure they would have been a bit better physically and chakra wise, but that isn’t making a huge difference.


I actually think we are. I remember back at the time people wondering why Sasori, Kakuzu, etc were so weak. It's only later that Kishi gives us the reason. Edos are brought back weaker.


> 4. Yes they underestimated Gengetsu; no mention of Sandaime Raikage.


Yes we get Sandaime Raikage hype through the databook and Dodoi. He is able to stalemate the 8 tails. This is unheard of from a ninja. We have seen V2 shroud Kinkaku wreck two entire platoons.

However, my opinion of Sandaime Raikage changed when I was convinced how strong Kin/Gin are.
We have to accept how strong Kin/Gin are and Sandaime Raikage can give them a good fight. This puts him above any of the 2nd Generation Gokage. He could also draw with the 8 tails and I don't think any of the 2nd generation kage could do this. Muu, might be able to get a draw.


> Naruto went to face Sandaime because he had a high level Fuuton.


No Naruto just went left. He did not know about Sandaime Raikage. Correct me if I am wrong.


> 5. At best you can argue Ei would turn Sasuke into a bloody mist due to match up; and the two are close outside of matchup; but Minato was portrayed well above Ei4; so this still makes B statement really dubious.


No as said, Sasuke already at that level kills Ay, Bee might not have known the jutsu, but knew the general level.

Minato was portrayed well above Ay, but he clearly had no way of hurting him. Hence he never permanently wounded him.


> 6. I don’t agree that B fight Sasuke would ‘definitely’ beat those Ninja except Kisame. Feel free to make a thread on it...


We can make a thread, but Amaterasu ends Onoki and Sandaime Raikage. They just have no counter.


> 7. If Ninja can accurately tell the level of someone just by clashing with them; then fights literally would never happen except among equals  as one Ninja would just back down realizing they are inferior. Orochimaru has really detailed intel on Kabuto and Kakashi; this is way different then saying B somehow accounted for a Jutsu he didn’t even see in his estimate of Sasuke strength


Ninjas dont back down. They keep fighting to the end and sometimes you can win against all odds. Other times you have no choice but to fight.

Jiraiay have no clue about Kabuto's abilities, but still could accurately asses he was Kakashi level. Part of the reason is it is Kishimoto trying to tell us something. With Kabuto vs Kakashi it was said several times, exactly like Minato being below SM Naruto and MS Sasuke.


> 8. It’s your point that Aoda could block a TBB; the burden of proof  is on you.


Well Manda managed to take a lot of CO without dying. Aoda has close to that durability and can possibly go underground as well, Manda could.


> 9. He didn’t use Amaterasu first tho; so that’s irrelevant


He didn't have it at that point. If he did, he would have used it earlier. Sasuke has never been shy on using Amaterasu early.


> 10. Obviously Nagato and Itachi power together would be great; that however doesn’t mean they are equals; there is literally nothing of substance there to counter, which is why I ignored it in the first place


No there is, we are talking about parallels. I still find it astounding anyone can read the return of Edo Itachi and not realise he is far beyond virtually every ninja.


> 11. I figured by Base-B he was at least able to use V1 and partial transformations; considering your allowing Itachi 3T. But if B isn’t allowed even V1 or partial transformations then I agree he would loose to 3T Itachi; now put Itachi without Sharingan vs Base-B, and it would be ‘close’, which is a more fair fight considering those conditions.


Perhaps, but let them fight without restrictions and Bee is destroyed very quickly.


> 12. So basically you can’t prove he can see the chameleon, unless you use a false equivalency than Hell Realm Invis is the same as the chameleons; okay moving on from this then


Prove? No. However, considering he can see other invisible creatures, it seems likely he can.


> 13. Cool then show me Deva realm reacting to something faster then Ei Max Speed.


V2 is close o Ay's max speed and he reacted to that. Being able to block SM Naruto attacks puts him above Minato reactions. We saw this during the war, when even amped KCM Minato could not fight at the same speed as SM Naurot. This is impossible to deny.


> 14. No he didn’t; he blows Naruto back in the middle panel before he absorbs SM in the bottom one:
> 
> Madara is a-lot faster then your giving him credit for.


You are right he does. I will look at the context though. It seems he might have taken him by surprise, but I will look at it again.


> 15. Okay when and how; give me examples


It seems Akatsuki had some sort of initiation test or maybe against the other Jinchuriki.

It seems likely Onoki paid Akatsuki to take down Han. Maybe there was a fight between other Akatsuki members. There are several places where he could have witnessed it, but we know he DID witness it.


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## Turrin (Oct 21, 2019)

Reddan said:


> I actually think we are. I remember back at the time people wondering why Sasori, Kakuzu, etc were so weak. It's only later that Kishi gives us the reason. Edos are brought back weaker.
> 
> Yes we get Sandaime Raikage hype through the databook and Dodoi. He is able to stalemate the 8 tails. This is unheard of from a ninja. We have seen V2 shroud Kinkaku wreck two entire platoons.
> 
> ...


1. Kishi gave us a reason why they were weaker; Kakuzu was brought back without hearts and Saosi without puppets 

2. Where was it stated that Sandaime Raikage can give Gin and Kin a good fight from?

3. Shikoku gives them intel and they discuss the situation after beating Mu:

Naruto then decides he’s going to go face Sandaime and when he arrives on the battlefield he declares he has a Fuuton stronger then Temari. It’s pretty obvious he found out what was going on and decided to face Ei3 for this reason:

4. Can I have proof Sasuke could even use Enton to the extent where he could do more the. Turn off the flames at that point?

5. Sure make the thread and see what other people think 

6. That makes no sense; we’ve seen countless times Ninja believe they can win against people who turn out to be way stronger then them

7. Prove to me Aoda is Manda size and durability in the Pain Arc 

8. Proof he would have used it earlier 

9. Find it astounding all you want; You being astounded isn’t an argument 

10. B would likely beat Itachi as he has full knowledge, but then you believe the no limits fallacy on the weapons; so I can see why you think B would loose

11. So he reacted to something that is inferior to Ei speed barely; this means he probably wouldn’t react in time to Ei4. 

12. Taken him by surprise form right in front of him lol and with danger sensing from SM you keep bringing up?

13. Orochimaru was initiated before Itachi. Akatsuki only caught 2 Jin maybe before Orochimaru left; meaning 

1. Orochimaru would have had to be assigned one of those Bijuu

2. Orochimaru would have needed Yamata no Orochi to beat one of those Jin, despite none of the Jin it likely could have been being that strong going off their Edo incarnations 

3. Itachi would have needed to be present despite not being Orochimaru partner

How does this seem likely to you?


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## Reddan (Oct 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Kishi gave us a reason why they were weaker; Kakuzu was brought back without hearts and Saosi without puppets


Kakuzu quickly got his hearts back and was still weaker. His main body taken out by fodder. Deidara was blitzed by Sai, when he was capable of escaping from Team Gai and just about avoid Hebi Sasuke.


> 2. Where was it stated that Sandaime Raikage can give Gin and Kin a good fight from?


It was strongly implied from Kinkaku's comments.
*Ginkaku Look. This kid bears the Third's Lightning Mark. He might be able to give us a good fight.
*
The inference is Sandaime Raikage could give them a good fight, which non of the other 2nd generation kages could.


> 3. Shikoku gives them intel and they discuss the situation after beating Mu:
> 
> Naruto then decides he’s going to go face Sandaime and when he arrives on the battlefield he declares he has a Fuuton stronger then Temari. It’s pretty obvious he found out what was going on and decided to face Ei3 for this reason:


You are right, which is telling. Naruto considered Sandaime Raikage the bigger threat, than someone equal to Mu.


> 4. Can I have proof Sasuke could even use Enton to the extent where he could do more the. Turn off the flames at that point?


Yes he turned off the flames. That shows he had control of them. He even said he awakened the power in his eye.


> 5. Sure make the thread and see what other people think


I will


> 6. That makes no sense; we’ve seen countless times Ninja believe they can win against people who turn out to be way stronger then them


Yes the ninjas have to be a certain level and close to each other. Lower level ninjas cannot do that. It has been said only top tier ninja can. However, if you are vastly below the other person you cannot judge the power.


> 7. Prove to me Aoda is Manda size and durability in the Pain Arc


Prove to me he is. Show me evidence it takes snakes a long time to grow. Manda was very old, so why would a few months make any difference? Sasuke had Aoda, who was already close to Manda's power.


> 8. Proof he would have used it earlier


Sasuke usually uses Amaterasu early. However, this does not even matter if he uses it early he takes down the 8 tails with ease. This is beyond the likes of Tobirama, Sandaime Raikage and even Minato to do.


> 9. Find it astounding all you want; You being astounded isn’t an argument


Yes the guy called special, the guy said to be the perfect foil for Edo Tensei etc, compared himself to Madara and SM Kabuto, is at best level with Gengetsu. Yes sure.


> 10. B would likely beat Itachi as he has full knowledge, but then you believe the no limits fallacy on the weapons; so I can see why you think B would loose


The weapons are hyped a lot more than the jar, that sealed the 8 tails. I don't believe in no limit fallacy, but the spiritual weapons are clearly greater than anything Bee can put out.

Bee gets set alight by Amaterasu. He still has no counter.


> 11. So he reacted to something that is inferior to Ei speed barely; this means he probably wouldn’t react in time to Ei4.


No he reacted to a surprise attack and managed to defeast KN6 Naruto. Nagato would have better reflexes.


> 12. Taken him by surprise form right in front of him lol and with danger sensing from SM you keep bringing up?


As with all sensing you need to be alert. Jiraiya and SM Naruto were both surprised by things when not paying attention. Just looking at the pages, Naruto is not focused. He is shocked and surprised at what is going on. He has ?? several times. So yes he was not focused, but rather wondering what the hell was going on with Madara.


> 13. Orochimaru was initiated before Itachi. Akatsuki only caught 2 Jin maybe before Orochimaru left; meaning
> 
> 1. Orochimaru would have had to be assigned one of those Bijuu
> 
> ...


It does not matter how likely it seems, it is what we are told happened. It could just as easily have been Orochimaru getting into a fight with a former member of Akatsuki who he killed. They may have fought in the presence of the others.


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Kakuzu quickly got his hearts back and was still weaker. His main body taken out by fodder. Deidara was blitzed by Sai, when he was capable of escaping from Team Gai and just about avoid Hebi Sasuke.
> 
> It was strongly implied from Kinkaku's comments.
> *Ginkaku Look. This kid bears the Third's Lightning Mark. He might be able to give us a good fight.
> ...


1. I don’t think those things show Kakuzu or Deidara we’re weaker.

2. Think your reading too deeply into that; it was just Gin&Kin distinguishing Darui above the Fodder 

3. Or Naruto went after the person he thought he could have a bigger impact against due to Fuuton > Raiton. 

4. No it doesn’t; it shows he can turn them off; not apply shape manipulation to them

5. So Orochimaru is around the same level as Itachi; because he thought he could beat Itachi and steal his body when he confronted him in the flashback; good to know

6. No it’s your point that Aoda can do this, burden of proof is on you...

7. Yes it does matter as if Sasuke is obliterated by a TBB; he would also go down way earlier and easier then the characters you listed. 

Anyway doesn’t matter because we saw Amaterasu get counted when used by Kawarimi 


8. The Jar was Hagaromo personal treasure tool; and was hyped to be able to seal Juubidara; there is no way Totosuka or Yara Mirror have better hype then the Jar outside of the Zetsu hyperbola

9. B countered Amaterasu on panel with Kwarimi

10. Cool so he barely reacted to a slower attack; meaning he would loose out to a faster on IE Ei mac speed. And you have not even come close to proving Edo Nagato without shared vision would have better reflexes then Deva Path. Even if we accept Deva paths reflexes were the same as Living Nagato; that means Edo Nagato reflexes would be marginally worse due to Edos being marginally weaker (though you believe Edos were much weaker so that defeats your argument even more).

11. He was staring right at Madara and knew he was a major threat a page before:

The idea that he was surprised by anything there other then Madara speed, is completely unfounded.

12. No it’s not what we were told happened. We are told Itachi felt Yamata before; we don’t know when. Your assuming that the only likely time he saw it was in Akatsuki; and I’m showing you that is also unlikely and relies on assumptions.

It’s also very possible that Akatsuki went to hunt Orochimaru down sometime after he left the organization and Orochimaru used Yamata no Orochi then and Itachi saw it. We can both make assumptions


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## Reddan (Oct 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. I don’t think those things show Kakuzu or Deidara we’re weaker.


It shows they are much weaker than they were. It might be they were just caught off guard, but there are too many occurrences of this and we later learn Edo Tensei does not bring strong people back at full strength.


> 2. Think your reading too deeply into that; it was just Gin&Kin distinguishing Darui above the Fodder


I think you are not reading enough into it. Somebody had to have killed them and being above fodder does not mean you can give them a good fight. Samui is above fodder and got destroyed. 

As I said if Kin/Gin are not weakened then Darui's feats puts him up there with Tobirama at the very least. 

I looked at the fight again and the Kin/Gin brothers even have the Otsutsuki horns. Kishimoto had to make them that strong to explain Tobirama's death even when he had his entire squad. Only with Kin/Gin being so strong can we explain why Team Tobirama had no chance of escape even if they ambushed them.


> 3. Or Naruto went after the person he thought he could have a bigger impact against due to Fuuton > Raiton.


Naruto just finished Muu in seconds. I don't think Naruto at this point is concerned with elemental match ups. 


> 4. No it doesn’t; it shows he can turn them off; not apply shape manipulation to them


It shows he has control of the flames.


> 5. So Orochimaru is around the same level as Itachi; because he thought he could beat Itachi and steal his body when he confronted him in the flashback; good to know


When they fought he saw how big the gap was. He never tried again until Itachi was blind and dying.


> 6. No it’s your point that Aoda can do this, burden of proof is on you...


Fairly logical and reasonable claim to make. 


> 7. Yes it does matter as if Sasuke is obliterated by a TBB; he would also go down way earlier and easier then the characters you listed.
> 
> Anyway doesn’t matter because we saw Amaterasu get counted when used by Kawarimi


And Sasuke could have used Amaterasu again to finish him off, but he wanted Bee alive. 


> 8. The Jar was Hagaromo personal treasure tool; and was hyped to be able to seal Juubidara; there is no way Totosuka or Yara Mirror have better hype then the Jar outside of the Zetsu hyperbola


No it was not hyped to be able to seal Jubidara. Yes the weapons do have such hype, I think it's almost certain they are Otsutsuki weapons. Kishimoto had the perfect opportunity to put them at the Sage Level, but he still didn't. 


> 9. B countered Amaterasu on panel with Kwarimi


A short term counter, which used nearly all of his chakra and left him a sitting duck. Itachi is not Sasuke and would not fall for the counter, he would set the tentacle alight too, ending the fight.


> 10. Cool so he barely reacted to a slower attack; meaning he would loose out to a faster on IE Ei mac speed. And you have not even come close to proving Edo Nagato without shared vision would have better reflexes then Deva Path. Even if we accept Deva paths reflexes were the same as Living Nagato; that means Edo Nagato reflexes would be marginally worse due to Edos being marginally weaker (though you believe Edos were much weaker so that defeats your argument even more).


Yes I believe top tier Edos are much weaker, but that applies to Itachi and Nagato. As Orochimaru said to Jiraiya they are equally handicapped.

He didn't barely react he countered KN6 AND he did this from a great distance. The closer Nagato is to Deva, the better control and more power he has. So if Nagato could react to KN6 from a huge distance, then he himself must have much better reactions.


> 11. He was staring right at Madara and knew he was a major threat a page before:
> 
> The idea that he was surprised by anything there other then Madara speed, is completely unfounded.


He was staring and wondering what was going on. He had question marks in several panels. His guard was lowered. 


> 12. No it’s not what we were told happened. We are told Itachi felt Yamata before; we don’t know when. Your assuming that the only likely time he saw it was in Akatsuki; and I’m showing you that is also unlikely and relies on assumptions.
> 
> It’s also very possible that Akatsuki went to hunt Orochimaru down sometime after he left the organization and Orochimaru used Yamata no Orochi then and Itachi saw it. We can both make assumptions


No you are making huge assumptions and creating a book. I already said we should apply the principle of Ockham's Razor. There is no need to imagine another scenario where Itachi and Orochimaru met. We know when they met and it was during the Akatsuki days. 

Look how far you go to try and discredit Itachi? You honestly need to have a look at yourself and see how bias you are and the story's you are prepared to concoct to downplay them.


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2019)

Reddan said:


> It shows they are much weaker than they were. It might be they were just caught off guard, but there are too many occurrences of this and we later learn Edo Tensei does not bring strong people back at full strength.
> 
> I think you are not reading enough into it. Somebody had to have killed them and being above fodder does not mean you can give them a good fight. Samui is above fodder and got destroyed.
> 
> ...



1. They may have been marginally weaker, but as I said I don’t see them being ‘much’ weaker 

2. Darui fears don’t put him up there with Tobirama as he had a huge amount of help, intel, and Gin&Kin didn’t have the Amber Jar. I’m Tobirama case if anything Gin and Kin had help.

3. You not ‘thinking’ something isn’t an argument; right when Naruto shows up he talks about being a good foil to Ei3 due to his Fuuton mastery. So we’ll have to agree to disagree then 

4. Cool, but not to the extent where he can shape manipulate them

5. Nah according to you he should have been able to sense it; so the gap wasn’t very big, according to you. Also IA Naruto; and Kakashi both on Itachi’s ‘level’ and Deidara and Hebi Sasuke. Who knew Itachi was so weak.

6. You thinking something is ‘reasonable’ isn’t an argument so we’ll have to agree to disagree 

7. No he couldn’t because it was countered by Kwarimi

8. It didn’t leave him a sitting duck because Taka couldn’t see through the Kawarimi.

9. Deva was closer to Nagato and he got manhandled by SM Naruto whose kick he couldn’t react to; so nah. Deva best feat is against KN6 and this was a slower enemy then Ei

10. oh come on dude; he had !? Mark because of what Madara was saying; he’s not going to lower his guard when a major threat is starring JJ right in the face. I’m done with this point if your just going to be dishonest like that 

11. I already told you why Itachi seeing Yamata during the Akatsuki days isn’t a simpler explanation. And it’s not about discrediting Itachi it’s about making sense of what we are shown int he Manga. Orochimaru has shown that he can regenerate from attacks like that easily and Yamata would laugh off a Kunai attack. Saying he lost due to his hand being cut off doesn’t make sense if he had these abilities already.

Ether he didn’t have them; or Orochimaru just sensed Itachi murderous intent and got scared; it doesn’t matter.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 22, 2019)

He is D when sick and either C or borderline C when healthy with his edo feats sans regen applying.


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## Reddan (Oct 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. They may have been marginally weaker, but as I said I don’t see them being ‘much’ weaker


Ok that's another discussion, but we can agree Edo's are weaker.


> 2. Darui fears don’t put him up there with Tobirama as he had a huge amount of help, intel, and Gin&Kin didn’t have the Amber Jar. I’m Tobirama case if anything Gin and Kin had help.


No Tobirama had help in the form of a Kage. Dauri only had fodder Atsui and what appears to be an average jounin level Samui. Tobirama probably had intel from 2nd Raikage and the second time he had intel.

Not to mention Tobirama with Hiruzen, Danzo, Kagami and three other very strong ninjas couldn't even escape if they all launched an ambush.

Then we have the statement Kin/Gin>Tobirama/Gengetsu/Muu/2nd Kazekegae/2nd Raikage

So yes Darui's feats does put him on that level.


> 3. You not ‘thinking’ something isn’t an argument; right when Naruto shows up he talks about being a good foil to Ei3 due to his Fuuton mastery. So we’ll have to agree to disagree then


Just looked at it and there is no indication at all Naruto is told about Sandaime Raikage. Instead they are told about Naruto's clones identifying the Zetsu's. 
Naruto's comment about being the strongest wind user was in response to what he heard Temari say.


> 4. Cool, but not to the extent where he can shape manipulate them


He never saw a limit, just saw him have control of the flames, it was enough to leave a lasting impressing on Bee.


> 5. Nah according to you he should have been able to sense it; so the gap wasn’t very big, according to you. Also IA Naruto; and Kakashi both on Itachi’s ‘level’ and Deidara and Hebi Sasuke. Who knew Itachi was so weak.


No quite the opposite actually. The gap is so big he COULD not sense it, they were not equals in anyway. Again I can provide you the manga panels if you want to show this. Shinobi close in strength can sense the powers levels of each other. When someone is much stronger than you, you cannot judge their power.

Just shows Itachi is far above all those guys, but manga feats proof that. 

*Sasuke Do you remember what you said to me long ago in the Final Valley. The thing about when two shinobi are of a high enough level.

Now I do learn all sorts of things from just trading blows with you. It means we're high level shinobi.
....

That if you and I fight we die.
*
It just goes to show Orochimaru and the others were not close enough to Itachi's level.


> 7. No he couldn’t because it was countered by Kwarimi


Yes and he could use it again. It was a lack of experience and intelligence, which cost Sasuke, but that's not a problem for Itachi


> 8. It didn’t leave him a sitting duck because Taka couldn’t see through the Kawarimi.


It did, he was lucky Taka were inexperienced. Itachi is smarter than even RS Sasuke, after all his fights. He would see through the kawarimi and finish the job.


> 9. Deva was closer to Nagato and he got manhandled by SM Naruto whose kick he couldn’t react to; so nah. Deva best feat is against KN6 and this was a slower enemy then Ei


No he reacted to SM Naruto's kick quite easily, the problem is the kick was just too powerful for him. Unlike Itachi Deva cannot block attacks from SM users.


> 10. oh come on dude; he had !? Mark because of what Madara was saying; he’s not going to lower his guard when a major threat is starring JJ right in the face. I’m done with this point if your just going to be dishonest like that


No I flicked through. He had three ? marks.in a few pages, about what was happening to Madara. He was confused and not alert. 


> 11. I already told you why Itachi seeing Yamata during the Akatsuki days isn’t a simpler explanation. And it’s not about discrediting Itachi it’s about making sense of what we are shown int he Manga. Orochimaru has shown that he can regenerate from attacks like that easily and Yamata would laugh off a Kunai attack. Saying he lost due to his hand being cut off doesn’t make sense if he had these abilities already.
> 
> Ether he didn’t have them; or Orochimaru just sensed Itachi murderous intent and got scared; it doesn’t matter.


Hashirama has better regeneration than Tsunade. Does it make any sense he was bleeding at the end of his battle with Madara? Tsunade has regeneration better than Orochimaru, why did she suffer burn marks? There are three options.
1. Orochimaru was pushed so hard he had no chakra left for regeneration. 
2. Itachi used a jutsu to get around the regeneration.
3. Itachi used genjutsu to stop Orochimaru regenerating. 

Kabuto was able to block the Kyubi healing Naruto, by cutting of the chakra links. Perhaps Itachi did something similar or perhaps he just made Orochimaru unable to regenerate. 

Either way we know he the powers of the white snake. We saw him use it against Kabuto. LOL. We have Itachi witnessing it and we see him using white snake powers against Kabuto prior to this incident. 

3T Itachi is just that strong.


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2019)

@Reddan

I think we’ve reached the end here with this thread; I read your points and they aren’t convincing me; and a lot of stuff we’re just going in circles now on. So I’m just going to end off here with agree to disagree


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## Shazam (Feb 8, 2020)

@Sufex I'm assuming you'd say B or C given your history of rating Itachi


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## Sufex (Feb 8, 2020)

Shazam said:


> @Sufex I'm assuming you'd say B or C given your history of rating Itachi

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Feb 8, 2020)

Group C Ofc


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## Shazam (Feb 8, 2020)

Sufex said:


>



Yet you neg me for a post that had nothing to do with you lol






Orochimaru op said:


> Group C Ofc



I dont know if your goal is to have Itachi > every Sannin simply because Itachi beat Orochimaru or if your goal is to strive to keep SM Jiraiya = Orochimaru, but either way I get your back a lot on threads concerning topics and very little see that in return from you 



OT: What's keeping Itachi in group C and not in D?


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## t0xeus (Feb 8, 2020)

Sick D, Healthy/Edo C


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## Quipchaque (Feb 8, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Yet you neg me for a post that had nothing to do with you lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Draco Bolton (Feb 8, 2020)

C


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## Symmetry (Feb 8, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Yet you neg me for a post that had nothing to do with you lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Because Edo Itachi was leading the charge against SM Kabuto, whilst EMS Sasuke took a more passive role, in where Itachi saved him multiple times. If you count how much Itachi did in that fight he used less jutsu against Kabuto then when he was sick, so it isn’t just that Itachi was doing all of it due to edo. EMS Sasuke and Itachi stood side by side as peers, so I can’t see EMS Kabuto fight Sasuke being much stronger than healthy Itachi If at all. 


Naruto surpasses Minato with his kyubi chakra mode and Sasuke surpassed Itachi when he got better with his EMS.


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## Symmetry (Feb 8, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Sick D, Healthy/Edo C




This


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## Shazam (Feb 8, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> Because Edo Itachi was leading the charge against SM Kabuto, whilst EMS Sasuke took a more passive role, in where Itachi saved him multiple times. If you count how much Itachi did in that fight he used less jutsu against Kabuto then when he was sick, so it isn’t just that Itachi was doing all of it due to edo. EMS Sasuke and Itachi stood side by side as peers, so I can’t see EMS Kabuto fight Sasuke being much stronger than healthy Itachi If at all.
> 
> 
> Naruto surpasses Minato with his kyubi chakra mode and Sasuke surpassed Itachi when he got better with his EMS.



Edo Itachi is not the Itachi in question here. Itachi more so than any other potentially benefitted with Edo showings.


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## Shazam (Feb 8, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> This



Healthy is not a canonical thing. Living and Edo


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## Symmetry (Feb 8, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Healthy is not a canonical thing. Living and Edo



I suppose we weren’t shown healthy, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Sick Itachi  I don’t have in group D tho no way


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## FlamingRain (Feb 8, 2020)

Thread is almost four months old...

Really no need to go that far back for discussion.


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## MShadows (Feb 8, 2020)

@Shazam I thought I mentioned necroing is against the rules?


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