# monster trio vs Vergo, Smoker and Momonga



## zorokuma (Apr 25, 2013)

Location: vergo vs smoker and law

distance: 10 feet

blood lusted

no restrictions.

which team takes it? team M3 or team VA


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## Law (Apr 25, 2013)

My gut tells me M3, but not 100% sure.


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## Patrick (Apr 25, 2013)

They are all around the same level as Solid High Tiers, but the M3 probably win due to higher teamwork rate and the knowledge that a bloodlusted Luffy could probably beat any of these guys 1v1.


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## RF (Apr 25, 2013)

...

You know that we can do nothing but speculate Momonga's strenght, right ?

He's the deciding factor in this match-up, and we can't gauge his power.

I'll take a blind shot and say the VA's win.


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## Bitty (Apr 25, 2013)

Momonga is the wild-card in this match-up..

i'd say m3 win or lose with extreme-diff .... i'm only about 49 percent sure the m3 will win due to better teamwork & chemistry

After this arc the m3 should take the slight edge


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## Extravlad (Apr 25, 2013)

If Momonga is not stronger than Luffy/Zoro the M3 wins.


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## Mihawk (Apr 25, 2013)

If Smoker can get his head in the game, then the VAs might just pull it off. 

I'll say Vergo might be able to beat Sanji with extreme difficulty. 

Momonga, the "deciding factor" as RG said, might be able to defeat Luffy extreme difficulty as well, though it could go either way. 

Zoro would most assuredly defeat Smoker, high-extreme diff(leaning to high diff).

If Momonga beats Luffy, he and Vergo gangs up on Zoro and kill him.


My logic tells me the VA team can still pull off a win, but my gut feeling is 50/50 on this. Both sides have fighters that might cancel each other out.

If the Vice Admirals win it, it will be a victory taken under no less than extreme difficulty.

Good thread btw, topics like these are interesting than just plain old obvious, 1 V 1 match ups.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 25, 2013)

Vergo owns Luffy mid maybe high diff. Smoker beats Zoro extremely high, but Sanji probably beats Momonga. After Vergo beats Sanji he'll just use the full body haki on Sanji and own him as well. Team Vergo wins high diff.


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## Dellinger (Apr 25, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Vergo owns Luffy mid maybe high diff. Smoker beats Zoro extremely high, but Sanji probably beats Momonga. After Vergo beats Sanji he'll just use the full body haki on Sanji and own him as well. Team Vergo wins high diff.



Vergo isn't owning anyone here.


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## RF (Apr 25, 2013)

Tupa's Vergo wank at its best.


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## RandomLurker (Apr 25, 2013)

If you allow filler feats Momonga has some feats, since he was in the mini filler leading up to Film Z. Also I think he was shown fighting in some of the Marineford added filler material.


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## Dellinger (Apr 25, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Tupa's Vergo wank at its best.



More like Law wank.


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## zorokuma (Apr 25, 2013)

I tried my best to make it even. a haki brawler on both sides, a swordsman on both sides, and a df brawler on both sides.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 25, 2013)

Vergo takes out Sanji.

Momonga take out Luffy or replace him with Smoker and luffy wins..hopefully. 

Smoker loses to Zoro or switch Smoker with momonga and he wins. 

 Momonga and Vergo finish off Zoro/Luffy.

Team Vice Captains win Extreme difficulty.


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## Coruscation (Apr 25, 2013)

I view both Luffy and Zoro as stronger than Vergo and Smoker. I don't know about Momonga but I've seen no real reason to think he'd take out Sanji quicker than Luffy or Zoro would win over their opponents, if he would at all. Now that's not to say it couldn't be the case but when M3 has 2/3 that I view as nearly certainly stronger I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Apr 25, 2013)

Sanji can take on Vergo.
Luffy beats Smokers.
Zoro beats mr stab himself.
Luffy and Zoro help Sanji beat Vergo if he didn't do so already.
M3 wins.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 25, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> Vergo isn't owning anyone here.



You must have forgotten what he did to Sanji in PH.


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## RF (Apr 25, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> You must have forgotten what he did to Sanji in PH.



He cracked his leg slighly. And he wasn't even using DJ. 

Luffy could do absolutely the same with a hakified punch. That's why you don't take powerful attacks head on.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 25, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> *I view *both *Luffy* and Zoro *as stronger than Vergo* and Smoker. I don't know about Momonga but I've seen no real reason to think he'd take out Sanji quicker than Luffy or Zoro would win over their opponents, if he would at all. Now that's not to say it couldn't be the case but when M3 has 2/3 that I view as nearly certainly stronger I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.



Why do you think Luffy is stronger than someone who is faster, stronger, and more durable than him? I just wanna know how you came to this conclusion.





Sakazuki said:


> He cracked his leg slighly. And he wasn't even using DJ.
> 
> Luffy could do absolutely the same with a hakified punch. That's why you don't take powerful attacks head on.



Since when does DJ add defense to his leg? And there is no way in hell Luffy is breaking Sanji's leg as easily as Vergo did seeing how he couldn't even do the same to Hody or CC. Ur delusional bro.


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## Coruscation (Apr 25, 2013)

> Why do you think Luffy is stronger than someone who is faster, stronger, and more durable than him? I just wanna know how you came to this conclusion.



Luffy is both faster and stronger (has more attack power) than Vergo. That's why he's stronger than him.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 25, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Luffy is both faster and stronger (has more attack power) than Vergo. That's why he's stronger than him.



Luffy is definitely not faster than Vergo. Vergo blitzed Law's shambles which is faster than Smoker who is about as fast or even faster than Luffy. As for strength Luffy is also nowhere near his strength except for G3, which he would never hit him with in a battle seeing how Vergo is faster than him. When it comes to base strength/base haki strength and ability Vergo is leagues above Luffy. He accomplished a feat Luffy will never hope to accomplish (as long as Oda keeps his powerscaling in check).


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## RF (Apr 25, 2013)

Dude. Luffy could break Sanji's leg as easy as Vergo did if he punched it with a hardened punch.


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## Coruscation (Apr 25, 2013)

There was no blitz. Law was focusing on getting his heart back and that was the only reason he couldn't respond to Vergo. Here's real proof: Smoker and Sanji were consistently reacting to Vergo and dodging his attacks. Both of them landed hits on Vergo before he was able to hit them. Luffy with Gear Second is faster than both*. Luffy is thus above Vergo in speed. See what I did there? I used all available evidence, evaluated it logically and came to the conclusion that makes the most sense when taking everything into a consideration. That's how you hold a debate and present an argument, tupadre. Take notes. You don't just arrogantly assert various things and pretend they're fact. You use empirical evidence, logic and consistent standards.

With regard to power, here's empirical evidence. Sanji clashed legs with Vergo many times. Smoker stopped Vergo's kick with his own. This shows that Vergo's power output is around the same level as Smoker and Sanji's. Luffy is above both in power**. Moreover, Luffy exploded a rock wall hundreds of feet wide with a single punch back in Fishman Island. Vergo has not shown the ability to do that much damage with one punch. You have no evidence whatsoever that Luffy couldn't have done what Vergo did. And no, please understand that your _assertions_ do not qualify as evidence. On-panel feats do. I've got some. Sanji nearly broke his own leg just kicking Kuma before the timeskip. That means the _force of Sanji's own leg_, kicking against a hard surface, was enough to nearly break it. That, in turn, means that Vergo only needed to kick about as hard as Sanji to do what he did. See that? It's called induction. I see empirical evidence and learn something from it. I apply what I learned to other, similar situations so as to interpret them in a logical way.

I suggest you make it an urgent business to get yourself some basic understanding of argument, because your asinine, arrogant posts are an utter embarassment to this forum.

*this does not need to be proven; it is true until otherwise shown because it has always been this way and nothing has yet to show otherwise.
**this does not need to be proven; it is true until otherwise shown because it has always been this way and nothing has yet to show otherwise.


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## Dellinger (Apr 25, 2013)

Vergo never owned Sanji in the first place.He may indeed cracked his leg but Sanji was still keeping up with him.

Vergo being faster than Luffy is just absurd.Also yes,Luffy is physicaly stronger than Vergo.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 25, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Dude. Luffy could break Sanji's leg as easy as Vergo did if he punched it with a hardened punch.



 troll harder next time


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## Dellinger (Apr 25, 2013)

So much for a cracked leg where Sanji is still fine and dandy kicking snipers in Dressrosa


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## RF (Apr 25, 2013)

So you actually believe Sanji can take a hardened punch from someone superior to him to his leg in base form without being scratched?

You're over-exaggerating that scene _horribly_, he merely cracked his bone, you act as if he tore his entire leg apart...


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## tupadre97 (Apr 25, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> There was no blitz. Law was focusing on getting his heart back and that was the only reason he couldn't respond to Vergo. Here's real proof: Smoker and Sanji were consistently reacting to Vergo and dodging his attacks. Both of them landed hits on Vergo before he was able to hit them. Luffy with Gear Second is faster than both*. Luffy is thus above Vergo in speed. See what I did there? I used all available evidence, evaluated it logically and came to the conclusion that makes the most sense when taking everything into a consideration. That's how you hold a debate and present an argument, tupadre. Take notes. You don't just arrogantly assert various things and pretend they're fact. You use empirical evidence, logic and consistent standards.
> 
> With regard to power, here's empirical evidence. Sanji clashed legs with Vergo many times. Smoker stopped Vergo's kick with his own. This shows that Vergo's power output is around the same level as Smoker and Sanji's. Luffy is above both in power**. Moreover, Luffy exploded a rock wall hundreds of feet wide with a single punch back in Fishman Island. Vergo has not shown the ability to do that much damage with one punch. You have no evidence whatsoever that Luffy couldn't have done what Vergo did. And no, please understand that your _assertions_ do not qualify as evidence. On-panel feats do. I've got some. Sanji nearly broke his own leg just kicking Kuma before the timeskip. That means the _force of Sanji's own leg_, kicking against a hard surface, was enough to nearly break it. That, in turn, means that Vergo only needed to kick about as hard as Sanji to do what he did. See that? It's called induction. I see empirical evidence and learn something from it. I apply what I learned to other, similar situations so as to interpret them in a logical way.
> 
> ...



Well instead of blitzing I meant that he had attacked Law at virtually the same time as he teleported his heart. Which would mean he is as fast as Shambles which is slightly faster than Smoker and Luffy. U also have no proof that G2 is faster than Smoker. But when comparing their speed we have seen that Smoker is pretty much faster than Luffy seeing how Luffy had to run after him to catch up with him so fast the flew caught on fire and he was out of breath. That would put Luffy's speed around Smoker's which again is not faster than Law.

When it comes to power Vergo still is above Luffy. He broke Sanji's leg with one kick which again is something Luffy cannot do. Even if they did still clash (most of it was just Sanji parrying him) after that that one feat proves how much stronger he is than them. Also Luffy destorying a giant rock wall doesn't even matter. Who cares if Vergo has destroyed a giant wall, he injured someone with town level durability. Its just as impressive if not more impressive. Its obvious that Luffy cannot do the same as Vergo bcuz we have *seen* him fight ppl with less durability than Sanji and he did not break any of their limbs. Hell they just kept getting back up after most of Luffy's big hits on them. Its obvious if they fought Vergo they would not be getting up after any hits from him, if u don't understand that then just don't get how the powerscaling works One Piece. Ur example with Sanji kicking Kuma is irrelevant bcuz Sanji was not trying to kick Vergo he was blocking Vergo's kick. His leg almost broke when he tried to kick Kuma bcuz Kuma was more durable than his leg. Vergo's kick broke sanji's leg not bcuz it was more powerful than Sanji's durability. These are not *assertions* these are *facts*. Do you understand the difference? They have nothing to do with what I think about the situations this is just how it happened and why it did happen. I'm not making my argument with my opinions these are facts that are shown in the manga. You just have a wrong interpretation on what actually happened.


White Hawk said:


> Vergo never owned Sanji in the first place.He may indeed cracked his leg but Sanji was still keeping up with him.
> 
> Vergo being faster than Luffy is just absurd.Also yes,Luffy is physicaly stronger than Vergo.



Sanji was limping after their battle while Vergo was perfectly fine with just a few scratches on his face from those two dj hits Sanji got in. If that fight would have gone on longer its obvious what the final result would have been.


Sakazuki said:


> So you actually believe Sanji can take a hardened punch from someone superior to him to his leg in base form without being scratched?
> 
> You're over-exaggerating that scene _horribly_, he merely cracked his bone, you act as if he tore his entire leg apart...



Sanji would might be hurt by a hardened punch by Luffy but it definitely will not break his leg. He and Luffy are practically equals, it wouldn't make any sense for Luffy to be strong enough to break his leg bone to point where he is limping after a battle.


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## Bitty (Apr 25, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Since when does DJ add defense to his leg? And there is no way in hell Luffy is breaking Sanji's leg as easily as Vergo did seeing how he couldn't even do the same to Hody or CC. Ur delusional bro.



Sanji nearly broke his leg trying to hit Kuma the first time.  When the shs encountered a PX model on SA he had no problem repeatedly striking it with DJ.  It was just a slight crack.  That's  a paper cut to a fighter like Sanji.  You act as if Sanji hasn't suffered far worse injuries & kept fighting.  Notice how after that chapter his leg didn't bother him all or wasn't even brought up at all...even after using a technique like skywalk.

Whenever Law or Smoker were hit by Vergo seriously, they were sent flying. Sanji took the full impact of the attack & stood his ground.  If Vergo was the above Sanji, he would have kept cracking Sanji's legs & breaking him down.  But no, Sanji held his own & was able to evenly keep exchanging kicks with Vergo, with no DJ, no HM, no intent of a full fledged fight but rather stall & make sure Tashigi was safe. It was just a vizalution to show Vergo was the superior fighter at the time.  Nothing in that exchange indicates Vergo would stomp Sanji, even more so when both fighters couldn't go all out.

He's gonna have a hell of time fighting Sanji with Hell Memories activated.  Sanji might dance around him for a bit & land more hits but Vergo hits a lot harder & has superior defense.  It's basically HM vs Full Body CoA.  Hell we haven't even seen everything Sanji can do at this point. After this arc Sanji should defiantly have a slight edge over Vergo.


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## RF (Apr 25, 2013)

Such horrible, horrible exaggeration....

Vergo slightly cracked his leg, Sanji is actually seen a few moments later running as if his encounter with Vergo never happened in the first place.


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## cry77 (Apr 25, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> So you actually believe Sanji can take a hardened punch from someone superior to him to his leg in base form without being scratched?
> 
> You're over-exaggerating that scene _horribly_, he merely cracked his bone, you act as if he tore his entire leg apart...



1. what base are you talking about? Sanji has no defense oriented powerups..

2. he "merely" cracked his leg?..that has never happened before..the closest thing was when he was against kuma PRE SKIP


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## Kishido (Apr 25, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Well instead of blitzing I meant that he had attacked Law at virtually the same time as he teleported his heart. Which would mean he is as fast as Shambles which is slightly faster than Smoker and Luffy. U also have no proof that G2 is faster than Smoker. But when comparing their speed we have seen that Smoker is pretty much faster than Luffy seeing how Luffy had to run after him to catch up with him so fast the flew caught on fire and he was out of breath. That would put Luffy's speed around Smoker's which again is not faster than Law.
> 
> When it comes to power Vergo still is above Luffy. He broke Sanji's leg with one kick which again is something Luffy cannot do. Even if they did still clash (most of it was just Sanji parrying him) after that that one feat proves how much stronger he is than them. Also Luffy destorying a giant rock wall doesn't even matter. Who cares if Vergo has destroyed a giant wall, he injured someone with town level durability. Its just as impressive if not more impressive. Its obvious that Luffy cannot do the same as Vergo bcuz we have *seen* him fight ppl with less durability than Sanji and he did not break any of their limbs. Hell they just kept getting back up after most of Luffy's big hits on them. Its obvious if they fought Vergo they would not be getting up after any hits from him, if u don't understand that then just don't get how the powerscaling works One Piece. Ur example with Sanji kicking Kuma is irrelevant bcuz Sanji was not trying to kick Vergo he was blocking Vergo's kick. His leg almost broke when he tried to kick Kuma bcuz Kuma was more durable than his leg. Vergo's kick broke sanji's leg not bcuz it was more powerful than Sanji's durability. These are not *assertions* these are *facts*. Do you understand the difference? They have nothing to do with what I think about the situations this is just how it happened and why it did happen. I'm not making my argument with my opinions these are facts that are shown in the manga. You just have a wrong interpretation on what actually happened.
> 
> ...



No they aren't


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## tupadre97 (Apr 25, 2013)

KiShiDo said:


> No they aren't



Yes yes they are. Why do u think its called the M3? Besides G2 and G3 I would say they are about equal.


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## Coruscation (Apr 25, 2013)

> Well instead of blitzing I meant that he had attacked Law at virtually the same time as he teleported his heart. Which would mean he is as fast as Shambles which is slightly faster than Smoker and Luffy. U also have no proof that G2 is faster than Smoker. But when comparing their speed we have seen that Smoker is pretty much faster than Luffy seeing how Luffy had to run after him to catch up with him so fast the flew caught on fire and he was out of breath. That would put Luffy's speed around Smoker's which again is not faster than Law.
> 
> When it comes to power Vergo still is above Luffy. He broke Sanji's leg with one kick which again is something Luffy cannot do. Even if they did still clash (most of it was just Sanji parrying him) after that that one feat proves how much stronger he is than them. Also Luffy destorying a giant rock wall doesn't even matter. Who cares if Vergo has destroyed a giant wall, he injured someone with town level durability. Its just as impressive if not more impressive. Its obvious that Luffy cannot do the same as Vergo bcuz we have seen him fight ppl with less durability than Sanji and he did not break any of their limbs. Hell they just kept getting back up after most of Luffy's big hits on them. Its obvious if they fought Vergo they would not be getting up after any hits from him, if u don't understand that then just don't get how the powerscaling works One Piece. Ur example with Sanji kicking Kuma is irrelevant bcuz Sanji was not trying to kick Vergo he was blocking Vergo's kick. His leg almost broke when he tried to kick Kuma bcuz Kuma was more durable than his leg. Vergo's kick broke sanji's leg not bcuz it was more powerful than Sanji's durability. These are not assertions these are facts. Do you understand the difference? They have nothing to do with what I think about the situations this is just how it happened and why it did happen. I'm not making my argument with my opinions these are facts that are shown in the manga. You just have a wrong interpretation on what actually happened.



Vergo was close to Law and predicting him with COO. He used Soru to travel only 10-20 meters. You have zero evidence, *none whatsoever*, that Luffy with Soru couldn't have done exactly the same thing or better. Get this into your head: *assertions are meaningless without evidence*. This is basic debating. You are doing nothing but spewing your baseless nonsense over and over again. Luffy was not using G2 when he ran alongside Smoker. Luffy has moved 100+ meters in the blink of an eye while falling free in mid air, meaning he had nothing to kick off. That's the greatest speed feat since the timeskip. Smoker and Sanji dodged Vergo's attacks repeatedly. In fact Vergo never landed a single hit on Sanji that wasn't blocked or dodged, while Sanji landed one on Vergo without catching him off-guard at all. Luffy with G2 is faster than Sanji and Smoker. Luffy is faster than Vergo.

No. You can't just ignore them clashing repeatedly and say that it proves what you think it proves anyway. The fact that they clashed repeatedly, that Smoker stopped Vergo's kick with his own, PROVES that Vergo's power is around their level. Ignoring it does not make it go away. It only shows that you're both out of arguments and incapable of even formulating an attempt at a response.

Show me a single panel where a weaker person tries to block Luffy's Hardened G2 with their limbs and they don't crack. Go on. Do it, since you claim there is evidence. I can tell you right now that *it never happened*. The only thing somewhat close is that Luffy caved Caesar's entire face in with a Hardened, _non_-G2 punch. Vergo kicked and punched Law right in the face at least three times and didn't come close to doing the same damage. And no, you have no evidence whatsoever that they could not get back up from Vergo's hits. Again: assertions are not evidence. You need quantifiable evidence to back them up and you don't have any. I'm sorry, but "u dun undstn powrscla" (how is my tupadre impression?) is not an argument either. It's merely another assertion.

Sanji cracked his leg against Kuma because 1) force and 2) hardness. His leg connected with a very hard object with a high amount of force. He cracked his leg against Vergo because 1) force and 2) hardness. His leg connected with a very hard object with a high amount of force. The only difference is that in one case it was Sanji applying the force and in the other it was Vergo. None other. And that makes no difference in regard to what happened. Sanji clashed repeatedly with Vergo and sent Vergo flying. That shows that Sanji is 1) around Vergo's level in power and 2) around Vergo's level in speed. Give or take a little either way. That's evidence. You are clinging desperately to a single event, that doesn't show what you think it shows, while deliberately ignoring previous similar incidents so you can interpret it in an illogical way. You have no leg to stand on.

And for heaven's sake, learn to type _somewhat_ like a normal person already.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 25, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Such horrible, horrible exaggeration....
> 
> Vergo slightly cracked his leg, Sanji is actually seen a few moments later running as if his encounter with Vergo never happened in the first place.



He was limping after the fight... he was still able to move bcuz he has good endurance


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## zorokuma (Apr 25, 2013)

Im I the only person in this forum that got the impression that sanji was winning against vergo? blocking his kicks and countering and stuff. vergo couldnt keep up with him....imo at least. 

the only merit for him is that sanji got a slight crack in his leg.

and no vergo didnt break it, a slight crack and a leg being  broken are 2 different things.


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## RF (Apr 25, 2013)

cry77 said:


> 1. what base are you talking about? Sanji has no defense oriented powerups..



Diamble Jambe obviously gives his kicks more power, as well as resistance. Doubt Vergo would be able to do the same thing if he were using DJ.



cry77 said:


> 2. he "merely" cracked his leg?..that has never happened before..the closest thing was when he was against kuma PRE SKIP



Because nobody but Vergo and Kuma were in the position to do so...


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## cry77 (Apr 25, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Diamble Jambe obviously gives his kicks more power, as well as resistance. Doubt Vergo would be able to do the same thing if he were using DJ.
> 
> 
> 
> Because nobody but Vergo and Kuma were in the position to do so...



1. how the fuck would DJ strenghten his legs? It just adds burning damage, that's all.


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## Bitty (Apr 25, 2013)

zorokuma said:


> Im I the only person in this forum that got the impression that sanji was winning against vergo? blocking his kicks and countering and stuff. vergo couldnt keep up with him....imo at least.
> 
> the only merit for him is that sanji got a slight crack in his leg.
> 
> and no vergo didnt break it, a slight crack and a leg being  broken are 2 different things.



nah I still believe Vergo was meant to be the superior the time....But

Sanji sent him flying with DJ twice while blooding his face, & dodged/blocked most of his attacks
Vergo latter walked off from those attacks like nothing...great endurance
Vergo slightly cracked his leg with 1 kick...very impressive
Sanji latter kept moving & using techniques like skywalk without his leg bothering him at all..good endurance

That was not the exchange of a fighter who would get stomped the other.....clearly

_Note_: Neither fighter_ went all out_.  Like I said after this arc Sanji should take a slight edge.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 25, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Vergo was close to Law and predicting him with COO. He used Soru to travel only 10-20 meters. You have zero evidence, *none whatsoever*, that Luffy with Soru couldn't have done exactly the same thing or better. Get this into your head: *assertions are meaningless without evidence*. This is basic debating. You are doing nothing but spewing your baseless nonsense over and over again. Luffy was not using G2 when he ran alongside Smoker. Luffy has moved 100+ meters in the blink of an eye while falling free in mid air, meaning he had nothing to kick off. That's the greatest speed feat since the timeskip. Smoker and Sanji dodged Vergo's attacks repeatedly. In fact Vergo never landed a single hit on Sanji that wasn't blocked or dodged, while Sanji landed one on Vergo without catching him off-guard at all. Luffy with G2 is faster than Sanji and Smoker. Luffy is faster than Vergo.
> 
> No. You can't just ignore them clashing repeatedly and say that it proves what you think it proves anyway. The fact that they clashed repeatedly, that Smoker stopped Vergo's kick with his own, PROVES that Vergo's power is around their level. Ignoring it does not make it go away. It only shows that you're both out of arguments and incapable of even formulating an attempt at a response.
> 
> ...



 I'm not even gonna respond to all of this. Ignore all the evidence I gave if u want. I'll just say that after their first clash Sanji _parried_ his kick so he wouldn't get attacked with the full force again. Smoker also _parried_ his kick during their fight they did not clash. If u wanna believe Luffy is faster than Vergo thats fine, imo he's not but whatever it doesn't really matter in this fight. Luffy has only used a hardened G2 attack once (red hawk) so I can't show you a panel where he's broken someones bone with. If Luffy used G2 or hardening punch on Sanji it would *not* break his leg. Sanji is not that weak. If Luffy cannot do that to Hody or CC (with a non bloodlusted punch) then there is no way he can do it Sanji (even if he was bloodlusted it would also not work). Why would it not work? Bcuz Sanji is just as strong as Luffy and is more durable than Hody and CC, its simple powerscaling thats all. Now as for Vergo's attacks when they land _cleanly_ (which means no parrying) they can take down ppl as strong as Law and Smoker _in just a few hits_. That is all the proof I need to show you how powerful Vergo is. I am not asserting anything I am just applying what we've already seen from the manga into this debate.

I'm not arguing anymore with a person who thinks Luffy is stronger than Vergo bcuz he broke a giant rock wall while Vergo hasn't. Thats the equivalent of saying Dragon is weaker than Luffy bcuz we haven't seen him destroy a giant wall. Its a laughable argument. Its obviously not worth my time to be arguing with you so I'm done.


Sakazuki said:


> Diamble Jambe obviously gives his kicks more power, as well as resistance. Doubt Vergo would be able to do the same thing if he were using DJ.
> 
> 
> 
> Because nobody but Vergo and Kuma were in the position to do so...



No its just adds burn damage, it does nothing for durability. That would be haki that does that.





zorokuma said:


> *Im I the only person in this forum that got the impression that sanji was winning against vergo*? blocking his kicks and countering and stuff. vergo couldnt keep up with him....imo at least.
> 
> the only merit for him is that sanji got a slight crack in his leg.
> 
> and no vergo didnt break it, a slight crack and a leg being  broken are 2 different things.



Yes you are the only one who thinks that


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## RF (Apr 25, 2013)

Did you even bother to read his arguments ?


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## Coruscation (Apr 25, 2013)

> Ignore all the evidence I gave if u want. I'll just say that after their first clash Sanji parried his kick so he wouldn't get attacked with the full force again. Smoker also parried his kick during their fight they did not clash.



You're the one who ignores evidence. Sanji parried kicks, yeah. If Vergo was so much stronger guess what? He wouldn't have been able to parry any kicks. Let alone do tons of them. Let _alone_ parry kicks and go on to break Vergo's guard sending him flying. You know something else? If Vergo was as strong as you think Sanji would have hurt his own damn legs just kicking him. But he had no issues at all. Further proof that you're reading the scene completely wrong.

Smoker did NOT parry. He stopped it dead. Parry means to deflect, ward off. Smoker simply kicked right at Vergo's kick and they stopped dead equally.



> If Luffy used G2 or hardening punch on Sanji it would not break his leg.



Vergo's Haki > Luffy's. Vergo Haki kick > Luffy Haki kick. Never disagreed with that.

Point of contention -- and where you don't have so much as a hair of evidence or logic to back your assertions up -- is G2+Hardening compared to Vergo. You claimed there is evidence Luffy would fail with that. That's a bald-faced lie because there is NONE. Luffy has only used the combination seriously once and it produced so much power just from speed of movement that it roasted Hody's insides, underwater. Common sense tells us Sanji isn't remotely competing with G2+Hardening without his own power-ups. He was competing fine with Vergo.



> If Luffy cannot do that to Hody or CC (with a non bloodlusted punch) then there is no way he can do it Sanji



Luffy caved Caesar's entire face in with a non G2 punch. Vergo hit Law _at least three times_ in the face and did not come _close_ to that.

Luffy did far more to Caesar than Vergo did to Law. Way the hell more. Does that show non G2 Luffy = Vergo? No. But it shows that your "argument" doesn't make a lick of sense. All you do is downplay Luffy without thinking about what you're actually seeing.


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Apr 25, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Yes yes they are. Why do u think its called the M3? Besides G2 and G3 I would say they are about equal.



You just said that base luffy=sanji, and we all know how much stronger luffy gets when he uses gears. He can go from fighting on par with blueno in base to totally blitzraping him in gears. Luffy vs Sanji would go horribly for sanji because he cant even keep up with him or hurt him. Luffy is far above Sanji post timeskip.


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## Dellinger (Apr 25, 2013)

Also no one and I mean no after the TS was able to keep up with gear 2nd except Jinbe.And we all know how strong Jinbe is.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 25, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> You're the one who ignores evidence. Sanji parried kicks, yeah. If Vergo was so much stronger guess what? He wouldn't have been able to parry any kicks. Let alone do tons of them. Let _alone_ parry kicks and go on to break Vergo's guard sending him flying. You know something else? If Vergo was as strong as you think Sanji would have hurt his own damn legs just kicking him. But he had no issues at all. Further proof that you're reading the scene completely wrong.
> 
> Smoker did NOT parry. He stopped it dead. Parry means to deflect, ward off. Smoker simply kicked right at Vergo's kick and they stopped dead equally.
> 
> ...



If Crocodile can parry Mihawk then that just shows you how easily you can parry someone in this series. Just because someone is stronger than you doesn't mean you can't parry them and yes Smoker did parry/counter Vergo's kick. I don't care about redhawk vs Vergo's strength bcuz redhawk is one of Luffy's strongest moves. I'm talking about *base* attacks and Vergo's base attacks are much more powerful than Luffy's. I don't get why Luffy caving in CC's face is so impressive to you. It didnt even knock him out and he is not even as durable as Law so it has nothing really to do with this argument. Who gives a fuck if Luffy caved in his face CC was still conscious and moving while Law got beat so bad he was on the floor not moving and barely conscious that is far more impressive than any thing Luffy has done yet. I'm not downplaying Luffy I'm just giving you the real facts about his power while your just making these wild assumptions and assertions.


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## Dellinger (Apr 25, 2013)

Law was down because of his heart,not because of the punches he took.


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## Rob (Apr 25, 2013)

Well, I feel like Any M3 member should be able to deal with Smoker pretty handily... (Whether it may be high diff or not, I just don't see him winning against any of em')

Vergo and Momonga will prove Troublesome. 

Vergo vs. Luffy (Physical Battle)
Momonga vs. Zoro (Swordsman)
Sanji vs. Smoker (Element )


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## cry77 (Apr 25, 2013)

I see no reason to believe smoker would lose to sanji


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## RF (Apr 25, 2013)

Smoker is terribly underrated nowadays due to his performance on Punk Hazard.


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## Coruscation (Apr 25, 2013)

> If Crocodile can parry Mihawk then that just shows you how easily you can parry someone in this series. Just because someone is stronger than you doesn't mean you can't parry them and yes Smoker did parry/counter Vergo's kick. I don't care about redhawk vs Vergo's strength bcuz redhawk is one of Luffy's strongest moves. I'm talking about base attacks and Vergo's base attacks are much more powerful than Luffy's. I don't get why Luffy caving in CC's face is so impressive to you. It didnt even knock him out and he is not even as durable as Law so it has nothing really to do with this argument. Who gives a fuck if Luffy caved in his face CC was still conscious and moving while Law got beat so bad he was on the floor not moving and barely conscious



Mihawk stopped Crocodile's attack. Stop dumbing around. So you're just going to say that Smoker parried Vergo even after I gave you the definition of parrying and explained that it isn't what Smoker did? Are you _trying_ to prove you don't care about facts but only defending your own preconceptions at any cost?

We're talking G2+Hardening compared to Vergo. G2+Hardening because it's Luffy's strongest mode of attack. You don't have a single hair of evidence that Luffy isn't both stronger and faster than Vergo with that. You don't now and you never had and yet you've been going around for months claiming with utter arrogance that Luffy is inferior. Luffy can fight Vergo just fine with merely Hardening since Sanji was doing it but when he ramps it up he becomes stronger and faster. If you think when we finally see Luffy go all out with his power he'll turn out to be weaker than Vergo you're just deluding yourself.

Luffy caving Caesar's face in isn't super impressive. What it does is *destroy your ridiculous argument that Luffy "failed" to mess up Caesar*. One attack to Caesar did more than at least three did to Law. Of course Law is way beyond Caesar in durability but that has nothing to do with this. The point is that you were trying to discredit Luffy but you failed miserably because you were selective, ignorant and illogical. Luffy messed up Caesar purely physically with a single hit way more than Vergo did Law with multiple ones. That is the "real fact" about his power. Not your misconstrued selective nonsense. And really. Law was down on the ground because of his heart being squeezed. Are you seriously going to ignore that too?


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## Shingy (Apr 25, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Vergo takes out Sanji.
> 
> Momonga take out Luffy or replace him with Smoker and luffy wins..hopefully.
> 
> ...



What's with these random ass match ups?

No, that's not how it would work.

A swordsman would fight a swordsman, a brawler would fight a brawler, and Sanji would fight Smoker, him being the last opponent and all.

There's no reason to believe Smoker is stronger than Sanji, after all, they both did about the same amount of damage to Vergo, and both were holding back.

Zoro could take out Momonga, just due to power scaling. He hasn't shown much at all, and he's just been downplayed a lot.

Luffy could take out Vergo with just above mid difficulty. He's a much better brawler, and packs way more of a punch than Vergo has ever shown.

M3 win it with high difficulty.


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## Louis-954 (Apr 25, 2013)

> and Sanji would fight Smoker,


Doubtful. Smoker would make it a point to go after Luffy, and given Luffy's personality I believe he would oblige him. They have history together.


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## tanman (Apr 25, 2013)

It depends on Momonga's strength.
If Momonga can beat Zoro, then the VA's should win.
If Momonga would be beaten by Zoro, then the M3 wins.

It would be pure speculation to guess at which side of Zoro it is that Momonga is on. So I'll leave it at that.




To elaborate, Luffy isn't beating Smoker with anything but the highest difficulty. Vergo is definitely taking out Sanji. From Vergo's portrayal, I would say that he wins with lower difficulty against Sanji than Luffy would win against Smoker. Resultantly, Vergo should be able to take out Luffy.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 25, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> Law was down because of his heart,not because of the punches he took.



 do u ppl even read this manga?


Coruscation said:


> Mihawk stopped Crocodile's attack. Stop dumbing around. So you're just going to say that Smoker parried Vergo even after I gave you the definition of parrying and explained that it isn't what Smoker did? Are you _trying_ to prove you don't care about facts but only defending your own preconceptions at any cost?
> 
> We're talking G2+Hardening compared to Vergo. G2+Hardening because it's Luffy's strongest mode of attack. You don't have a single hair of evidence that Luffy isn't both stronger and faster than Vergo with that. You don't now and you never had and yet you've been going around for months claiming with utter arrogance that Luffy is inferior. Luffy can fight Vergo just fine with merely Hardening since Sanji was doing it but when he ramps it up he becomes stronger and faster. If you think when we finally see Luffy go all out with his power he'll turn out to be weaker than Vergo you're just deluding yourself.
> 
> Luffy caving Caesar's face in isn't super impressive. What it does is *destroy your ridiculous argument that Luffy "failed" to mess up Caesar*. One attack to Caesar did more than at least three did to Law. Of course Law is way beyond Caesar in durability but that has nothing to do with this. The point is that you were trying to discredit Luffy but you failed miserably because you were selective, ignorant and illogical. Luffy messed up Caesar purely physically with a single hit way more than Vergo did Law with multiple ones. That is the "real fact" about his power. Not your misconstrued selective nonsense. And really. Law was down on the ground because of his heart being squeezed. Are you seriously going to ignore that too?



 Not even gonna read this. No reason to waste my time on a guy that thinks Luffy is stronger than Vergo bcuz he destroyed a fuckin stone wall lol.


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## Urouge (Apr 25, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> I view both Luffy and Zoro as stronger than Vergo and Smoker. I don't know about Momonga but I've seen no real reason to think he'd take out Sanji quicker than Luffy or Zoro would win over their opponents, if he would at all. Now that's not to say it couldn't be the case but when M3 has 2/3 that I view as nearly certainly stronger I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.



sanji is not much weaker than zoro so he should be able to beat them aswell.


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## Mihawk (Apr 25, 2013)

It doesn't matter if Sanji didn't use DJ on Vergo in their scuffle, because Vergo was not using Fullbody Armaments form either.

If anything, that fight showed that they were in the same level, with Vergo gaining the upperhand in a slight instant. 

I'd say this fight could still go either way, depending on the matchups. 

If the M3 do win this, it will be a hell of a fight for sure.


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## Bitty (Apr 25, 2013)

^^^^^ I agree
& anyone who says Vergo will stomp Sanji cause he slightly cracked his leg are seriously over exaggerating the scene & have no comprehension of the fight. They were literally going back and forth evenly the entire fight...with Vergo given the slight edge due to the cracked bone.  Neither went all out & Sanji still has much to show us.

No body is winning their 1v1 matches handily or nothing sort of extreme-diff...these fighters are so close it's ridiculous.


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## savior2005 (Apr 25, 2013)

luffy>vergo
zoro=smoker
sanji> momonga
weakened luffy and sanji+zoro>smoker


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## Shingy (Apr 25, 2013)

What makes Vergo's kicks stronger than Luffy's? Or CoA for that matter?


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## tupadre97 (Apr 26, 2013)

8Bit said:


> ^^^^^ I agree
> & anyone who says Vergo will stomp Sanji cause he slightly cracked his leg are seriously over exaggerating the scene & have no comprehension of the fight. They were literally going back and forth evenly the entire fight...with Vergo given the slight edge due to the cracked bone.  Neither went all out & Sanji still has much to show us.
> 
> No body is winning their 1v1 matches handily or nothing sort of extreme-diff...these fighters are so close it's ridiculous.



Vergo definitely wasn't going to stomp Sanji but he would have eventually won with about mid-high diff. A few more clean hits and Sanji would have went down, just like Law and Smoker.


Shingy said:


> What makes Vergo's kicks stronger than Luffy's? Or CoA for that matter?



What makes his kicks stronger? Well Vergo's kicks do more damage to ppl with more durability than the ppl Luffy has fought. Its very simple.


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## Lawliet (Apr 26, 2013)

The  M3 should take this.


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## Shingy (Apr 26, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Vergo definitely wasn't going to stomp Sanji but he would have eventually won with about mid-high diff. A few more clean hits and Sanji would have went down, just like Law and Smoker.
> 
> 
> What makes his kicks stronger? Well Vergo's kicks do more damage to ppl with more durability than the ppl Luffy has fought. Its very simple.



We've yet to see Luffy do anything seriously, especially his kicks, and you're already stating that Vergo's kicks are stronger?


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## Kanki (Apr 26, 2013)

If we're taking this fight logically, and not pretending that Oda is writing it during an arc, then it will be Smoker/Luffy, Zoro/Momonga and Sanji/Vergo.

As for who wins, I have no idea really. Probably the M3.


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## Bitty (Apr 26, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Vergo definitely wasn't going to stomp Sanji but he would have eventually won with about mid-high diff. A few more clean hits and Sanji would have went down, just like Law and Smoker.



Smoker went down cause he fought with the intention of losing & never planned to win in the first place...all he did was stall to give Law an opening & he still made it look like a balanced fight.

Law went down because his opponent had the most extreme advantage of having his own heart in his hand...torturing him.  Neither Law nor Smoker were down permanently or to a point where it seemed they could no longer fight.  

Sanji clashed with Vergo evenly. He came in & sent Vergo flying with a DJ, which Vergo couldn't react to(or chose not to react to).  They exchanged kicks evenly. Sanji broke through his guard & sent him flying with DJ again. Sanji dodged/blocked most his attacks.  Vergo gained the slight edge by delivering a powerful kick that fractured Sanji's leg slightly.  Even after that, Sanji continued to exchange kicks evenly with him.

Neither went all out......not even a little bit.  Vergo is not mid-diffing anyone in this fight.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 26, 2013)

Shingy said:


> *We've yet to see Luffy do anything seriously*, especially his kicks, and you're already stating that Vergo's kicks are stronger?



Lol I guess u ppl really don't read this manga


8Bit said:


> Smoker went down cause he fought with the intention of losing & never planned to win in the first place...all he did was stall to give Law an opening & he still made it look like a balanced fight.
> 
> Law went down because his opponent had the most extreme advantage of having his own heart in his hand...torturing him.  Neither Law nor Smoker were down permanently or to a point where it seemed they could no longer fight.
> 
> ...



Well sure no one went out... but neither did Vergo. He was clearly superior to Sanji and Smoker in base form and was strong enough to KO Law in a few hits. We don't even know how powerful his full body form was but if he was stronger than Sanji and Smoker in base form will then it would be obvious that he is also stronger than him in full body form. Also for this fight no one ever said that form was restricted and they are also bloodlusted so imo he could beat someone fast enough with mid-high diff. I wouldn't say he'd mid diff them all the time but depending on how the fight goes it could be a mid or high diff battle, however no one in the monster trio would win he's just too powerful. He's already stronger than the M3 in base form and we don't even know how powerful he is in full body form fully bloodlusted so I'd give him the advantage and win in this fight.


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## Dellinger (Apr 26, 2013)

When Luffy took Caesar seriously he send him flying across the island.

When Luffy took Hody seriously,he one shotted him thanks to Red Hawk,he one shotted him again after a crazy amount of pills Hody took just to stand up from Red Hawk and he was going to destroy something as big as Noah.


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## Mihawk (Apr 26, 2013)

Sanji Base form=<Vergo base

Sanji DJ VS Vergo Fullbody Armaments

Can't say, since we haven't seen Vergo's Armaments form's full capabilities. 

I give the edge to Vergo extreme difficulty. 

Sanji sent him to a wall twice, but Vergo was not fazed.

Don't forget the fact that during the first kick, Vergo had his attention on Tashigi, and Sanji came out of nowhere and kicked him in the face, catching him off guard, which was the only reason he blitzed him. Vergo wasn't expecting him. He even said that this was an internal issue, and told Sanji to not interfere. 

When Vergo cracked Sanji's leg, Sanji's expression clearly showed that Vergo was starting to gain the upperhand, as he continued to unleash relentless attacks at Sanji after cracking his leg.


Still, Vergo is not going to mid diff Sanji. He's not vastly superior, and if he beats Sanji, it will be due to the fact that he's edged him out.


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## SsjAzn (Apr 27, 2013)

Depends if you view Momonga being more or less equal to both Vergo and Smoker, but I'd think it'll go either way or the Marine trio edge it out.


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## Shingy (Apr 27, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Lol I guess u ppl really don't read this manga



What the fuck? So you're saying Luffy went "Fuck it All" mode and used all his power to defeat Caesar?

Get your head out of your ass and stop mixing your bias into your opinions.

Bahaha, what wank, seriously, what wank.


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## Dellinger (Apr 27, 2013)

Law was only down because of Vergo crashing his heart non stop.
Get this in your head for God's sake.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 27, 2013)

Shingy said:


> What the fuck? So you're saying Luffy went "Fuck it All" mode and used all his power to defeat Caesar?
> 
> Get your head out of your ass and stop mixing your bias into your opinions.
> 
> Bahaha, what wank, seriously, what wank.



Nope just saying he was serious, thats all. He may not have used ALL of his power but he's done enough for us to gauge how strong he is now and... its not all that impressive...


White Hawk said:


> Law was only down because of Vergo crashing his heart non stop.
> Get this in your head for God's sake.



Yes bcuz crushing someones heart causes bruises to appear on your body. It all makes sense now.


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## Quuon (Apr 27, 2013)

M3 take it.
High-extreme diff.


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## Shingy (Apr 27, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Nope just saying he was serious, thats all. He may not have used ALL of his power but he's done enough for us to gauge how strong he is now and... its not all that impressive...



He wasn't serious, not in the least. If he wanted Caesar gone, he could have finished it in one shot.

He hasn't fought a serious enough opponent to gauge his strength. Vergo's strength, that's something we can gauge. He's fought Law, Smoker and Sanji all in the same arc.

Luffy on the other hand has only fought people like Hody and Caesar. People that he doesn't need to be serious on. He knows that they're not a threat to his life in a fight.

This upcoming arc will show us how strong Luffy actually is. Until then, we've no right to say any of Luffy's peers are stronger than him, in any way.


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## Kai (Apr 28, 2013)

Zoro's stronger than Vergo and Luffy definitely looks stronger than Smoker as of right now. Sanji can hold off a featless Momonga until the trio destroy him.


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## RF (Apr 28, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Yes bcuz crushing someones heart causes bruises to appear on your body. It all makes sense now.



The only reason he got so many hits on Law is because he was crushing his heart for fucks sake.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 28, 2013)

Shingy said:


> *He wasn't serious, not in the least. If he wanted Caesar gone, he could have finished it in one shot.*
> 
> He hasn't fought a serious enough opponent to gauge his strength. Vergo's strength, that's something we can gauge. He's fought Law, Smoker and Sanji all in the same arc.
> 
> ...



 This is what I'm talking about when I say you guys are Luffy wankers. Do you ppl even understand what your saying? He was dead serious when he was fighting CC and he still didn't one shot him. Why the hell are you ppl just making up ridiculous statements like this? How much more stupid can this fanbase even get at this point?


Kai said:


> *Zoro's stronger than Vergo* and Luffy definitely looks stronger than Smoker as of right now. Sanji can hold off a featless Momonga until the trio destroy him.


 and what *facts* do you have to support that argument? Do you have any or are you just pulling that statement out your ass?


Sakazuki said:


> The only reason he got so many hits on Law is because he was crushing his heart for fucks sake.



Ok and? He still almost got beat to death in a few hits didn't he? My entire point was that when Vergo lands hits on you they do massive damage, was it not? I don't care how he didn't I'm just saying when he does hit you it will do massive damage and it shows how much stronger he is than everyone.


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## Dr. White (Apr 28, 2013)

Momonga vs Zoro - Zoro takes this after a long hard fought battle. At this point I see Momonga being around Vergo level, I can see him due to experience, and skill with Haki/Rokushiki, giving zoro a high-extreme diff fight.  I just don't see Momonga having the strength of pushing zoro to his death limit. Feats of his new Tatsumaki, 360 canon, and Shi shi son son give him the edge.

Luffy vs Smoker - Very close fight to call. By this point I believe they are pretty equal, contrary to popular belief I believe smoker did very well for a CqC fighter in Law's room. Law was even forced to use Mes, as a means of nullifying Smoker. So far though Luffy's defintely has the better feats(smashing parts of the Noah, easily blitzing Hodi, Knocking Caeser through metal doors/walls outside of the factory. Luffy takes High Diff Imo. 

Sanji vs Vergo - Sanji def can take on Vergo if serious. Geppou allows him to a have flying fight with Vergo if neccessary and DJ has shown able to hurt Vergo. Sanji would have to be careful of getting hit though, he hasn't shown is COA, but we know he has it, so Idk how to call the durability match up. By feats I can see Vergo in COA armor mode tanking Hells Memories and winning High Diff at most.

Tired Luffy, and zoro finish off slightly less tired Vergo: Mid Diff

M3 win Extreme Diff


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## Shingy (Apr 28, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> This is what I'm talking about when I say you guys are Luffy wankers. Do you ppl even understand what your saying? He was dead serious when he was fighting CC and he still didn't one shot him. Why the hell are you ppl just making up ridiculous statements like this? How much more stupid can this fanbase even get at this point?



The funny thing is, Luffy did finish Caesar in one move, and you're accusing me of wanking?

The form Caesar was using, prior to being one shotted by Luffy, was his most powerful form. His ideal form to fight anyone, and he even thought he could win, yet a Grizzly Magnum knocked his shit out.

That's one move. That move would fuck him up any day of the week.

You can't refute this point. If you do, you'll just make yourself look dumber than you already are.


----------



## Mihawk (Apr 29, 2013)

^What are you even talking about?

Luffy punched CC in the face once before CC transformed and made Luffy resort to using Grizzly Magnum

So technically, it wasn't even a one shot. 

Don't forget that the space of time between each of Luffy's fights with CC were small, especially the one between the second and third fights. 

So no, saying that if Luffy wanted CC gone, he would have killed him instantly, is baseless bullshit. 

I guess the fact that CC knocked Luffy out the first time they fought, and the fact that he hurt him with Blue Sword doesn't ring a bell?

Why didn't he wreck CC's shit the first time they fought, if he could just "want him to be gone"? That's because he actually had some difficulty, however little it was.

But of course, you guys are probably gonna say that it was "plot" that allowed CC to last longer than he did...rather than acknowledging the fact that Ceasar defeated Luffy the first round, and was actually giving Luffy some difficulty in the second fight. 

Luffy is obviously above CC in every regard and he blitzed him quite easily, but the Luffy wank is fucking obnoxious as hell. 

If we use your logic of how Luffy's peers can't be stronger than him because we've yet to see Luffy go "serious", then that logic would extend to Zoro too, I guess? He hasn't even gotten serious yet, but we're not going to go around saying that we can't say Luffy or Law are stronger than him, right?

What your saying is understandable, with how we need to see more from Luffy, but that argument and logic is faulty.


Especially when Law has beaten two Vice Admirals with energy to spare, whereas Luffy has only been steamrolling New World fodder, and even then he has been looking incompetent as fuck. 

This Dress Rosa tournament is the opportunity for him to stop fucking around..


----------



## Shingy (Apr 29, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> ^What are you even talking about?
> 
> Luffy punched CC in the face once before CC transformed and made Luffy resort to using Grizzly Magnum
> 
> ...



So what you're saying is that Caesar, in full health, could tank a Grizzly Magnum? Fuck that.

What are you even trying to argue? That Caesar has a fruit that could kill someone that he catches off guard? That's basically the whole base of whatever measly argument you're bringing up.

Taking oxygen away in that space, that's what defeated Luffy. It was a cheap trick of sorts. Caesar would not put a candle to Luffy if it came down to straight CQC. He had to resort to using his oxygen manipulation to keep Luffy at bay. That's the only difficulty Luffy ever experienced, a lack of knowledge, and Luffy's dumb as shit.

You're right, Luffy has only been fighting New World fodder. Under these circumstances, it's okay to say with 100% guarantee that Vergo has stronger kicks and CoA? It's not. It was never clear, and it's still not clear. I even have my money on Luffy's kicks being superior. CoA is where I have my doubts, but underestimating Luffy to this extent is no better than the wanking.

The two fucking years he spent training with the Pirate King's first mate, on an island where everything was stronger than him. He lost his nakama, and his brother died in front of his eyes. All that resolve, and he's weaker than a Vice Admiral? What shit is this? That's not Luffy wanking, that's your annoyance to this upcoming arc where Doflamingo should be the villain.

That's just your bias. Also, Luffy is clearly a cut above Zoro, considering he's his captain and all, and yes, I am also saying it's not clear if Law is stronger than Zoro. It's not that farfetched either way.

With the M3 barely showing anything, nothing is clear at this point. We've just barely started the second New World Arc.


----------



## Mihawk (Apr 29, 2013)

I should clarify.

But you shouldn't just go off to a completely different track, putting words in my mouth.

So let me break it down for you nice and slow. 




> So what you're saying is that Caesar, in full health, could tank a Grizzly Magnum? Fuck that


.

Never said that. I said that He didn't technically get one shotted, as he got punched before, and they even had a little scuffle before THAT. You were saying he one shotted him, which was not the case.



> What are you even trying to argue? That Caesar has a fruit that could kill someone that he catches off guard? That's basically the whole base of whatever measly argument you're bringing up.



Arguing against the fact that you think Luffy can simply make CC disappear, when his incompetence has shown otherwise, and also arguing against the fact that Luffy has "barely showed anything". 



> Taking oxygen away in that space, that's what defeated Luffy. It was a cheap trick of sorts. Caesar would not put a candle to Luffy if it came down to straight CQC. He had to resort to using his oxygen manipulation to keep Luffy at bay. That's the only difficulty Luffy ever experienced, a lack of knowledge, and Luffy's dumb as shit.



Oh, so we're resorting to the "cheap tricks" argument again? Of course CC would not put a candle to Luffy if it comes down to CQC, cause he's not that kind of fighter. Why can't you understand that he's the cocky type of logia who relies on using his gas to amount to any sort of offensive maneuver? Cutting off Luffy's oxygen is Ceasar Clown's way of fighting. It is part of his overall asset of abilities. Without knowledge or not, it shows that Luffy couldn't simply make him disappear "if he wanted". 

And? Being dumb is no excuse for failure. He was able to exert out CC's poison due to his immunity from Magellan, and due to him exhaling the shit out of his ears. He also managed to quickly evade Gastanet with ease, despite having no knowledge of  the nature of that technique. Him being knocked out can't be excused by anything but his own failure. Luffy is very much stronger than Ceasar, but there are more ways to win a fight than just physically overpowering your enemy, which is what people such as Ceasar, Luffy himself(with the mast falling on Moriah), the Straw Hats etc have shown time and time again. 



> You're right, Luffy has only been fighting New World fodder. Under these circumstances, it's okay to say with 100% guarantee that Vergo has stronger kicks and CoA? It's not. It was never clear, and it's still not clear. I even have my money on Luffy's kicks being superior. CoA is where I have my doubts, but underestimating Luffy to this extent is no better than the wanking.



And where in my post did I ever even imply that Vergo was stronger than Luffy? Here you go again just zoning off to an entirely different direction lol. 

I agree and am perfectly fine with Luffy being stronger than Vergo, so don't go off topic.



> The two fucking years he spent training with the Pirate King's first mate, on an island where everything was stronger than him. He lost his nakama, and his brother died in front of his eyes. All that resolve, and he's weaker than a Vice Admiral? What shit is this? That's not Luffy wanking, that's your annoyance to this upcoming arc where Doflamingo should be the villain.



Nice attempt at a rousing speech using emotional plot points to try to make your argument sound more concise. Maybe you didn't notice, but there are so many varying levels of Vice Admiral fighters, it's hard to guage whether Luffy is above all of them or not.  It's funny that you say we've barely seen anything from Luffy, when we've seen even less from the high end Vice Admirals. 

And no one Luffy has beaten so far in the timeskip, has even been up to par with a Vice Admiral yet. I acknowledge Luffy being able to beat Momonga in a hard fight, but the reason why I gave it to the VAs for this match, wasn't because of my "bias" against the rookies, but due to the possibility of the match ups, depending on who takes who, before the process of elimination is applied, time is used as an advantage, and before the victors of one match help their team mates to gang up on their opponents.


So tell me, do you think Luffy is as strong or stronger than Doflamingo right now? 



> That's just your bias. Also, Luffy is clearly a cut above Zoro, considering he's his captain and all, and yes, I am also saying it's not clear if Law is stronger than Zoro. It's not that farfetched either way.



Uh, Luffy is obviously stronger than Zoro. I never argued against that. I was simply pointing out that the premise of your logic of how we can't assume Luffy's peers are stronger than or equal to him, is flawed. Of course he is stronger than them(Zoro, Sanji), but it is a flawed way to make an argument for his case that someone like Law or Zoro isn't stronger than him, *by*using the argument that Luffy hasn't gone "serious", yet, when Zoro has been even less nonchalant, and where we actually have feats from Law taking down Vice Admirals, while people insinuate that Luffy can do the same, and thus try to use that as an argument that he's somehow above Law, which is odd, considering that they are arguing in favor of Luffy over Law, for what they believe he can do just as well, while Law has already done it. Of course, I am not saying Zoro>Luffy or Zoro=Luffy, but the logic of Luffy not being serious as a pointer for his peers not being stronger than him is flawed, since Zoro has been even less pushed. 

It is the overestimation of Luffy that is annoying. Statements like "he can simply make him disappear instantly if he wanted to" are untrue and false, when the first couple of fights they've been in have shown otherwise.

Now I agree that Luffy can dispose of Ceasar fairly quickly and easily, but it's not some Luffy/Bellamy scenario. The second fight between CC & luffy should tell you that much.

Also, it isn't far fetched to say that Law isn't stronger than Zoro, but it is stupid to argue for Zoro, when Law has the better feats, hype, and it's odd that one would argue for the main character's right hand man, in favor of one of the main character's long foreshadowed rivals. 

Now of course, you'll try to say that just because he's a rival, doesn't mean he's stronger than Zoro, and then you will use Smoker as an example of someone who might lose to Zoro in a fight. But the difference between Law & Smoker is that Smoker has less impressive feats than Luffy, while Law has more impressive feats than both. 



> With the M3 barely showing anything, nothing is clear at this point. We've just barely started the second New World Arc.



This is exactly what I'm talking about, when I refer to Luffy/Rookie wank. You guys always seem to say that Luffy hasn't been "serious". I can accept that he hasn't used everything in his arsenal and disposal yet, but it's so stupid and ridiculous to say he hasn't gone serious at any point after the timeskip.  What do you mean, "barely showing anything"? I guess Elephant Gattling Gun & Grizzly Magnum are barely anything, then? This is the issue that I have with your argument.

The alleged nonchalant nature of the M3 extends to Zoro somewhat, and I believe Sanji has yet to go all out, but we've seen Luffy being closed to being pushed to his limits in tight situations. Hody wasn't up to par to give him a challenge, but the descending Noah gave us an idea of what Luffy was capable of when pushed. He was inside the bubble of Noah, so the excuse that he was underwater doesn't apply here. Don't tell me that he didn't go all out, or at least was serious when he was pumping the ark with a barrage of Elephant Gattling Gun. It makes no sense that he would hold back in such a scenario. I mean, does it make sense to you?


----------



## Shingy (Apr 29, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> I should clarify.
> 
> But you shouldn't just go off to a completely different track, putting words in my mouth.
> So let me break it down for you nice and slow.
> ...



First of all, if you agree that Luffy could one shot Caesar with a GM, then there's no point in arguing. I'm right. He was one shotted. Plain and simple. Don't get technical, as there's no point in using these idiotic technicalities when the result is the same with Caesar being at his maximum state.

See, the thing with Caesar's fruit, as with any other fruit, is having knowledge on it. Once Luffy gained knowledge on Caesar's fruit, he was basically fodder. Vulnerable to each and every one of Luffy's moves. The level above that is having a hax fruit, and still being able to beat someone of your stature that has knowledge on your fruit. That's Law. A good all around fighter.

Caesar holds none of these traits. He can thank his devil's fruit that he even lasted that long with Luffy.

The bolded is where I'm confused. I think there's numerous VA's that we can't underestimate, just as we can't underestimate the Supernovas.

No, I don't think Luffy's in Doflamingo's ballpark as of yet. It's quite obvious with the treatment of Smoker. That's not to say someone of Luffy's mass potential won't gain a few ranks in this arc, fighting Doflamingo's crew.

Why are you bringing up the Noah? We have no idea what that could have done to someone if it hit a direct target. It's clear that, _that_ scene was showing Luffy going all out. That was a ridiculously good feat. That just helps out Luffy's cause even further.

Also, what you don't get is the fact that Luffy's punches fluctuate in power. What he did to the pacifista isn't comparable with what he did to the fishmen pirates. Had he dealt the same blows, the fishmen would be down and out. He holds back depending on who he's facing.

You can hold your opinions on Law being stronger than Zoro, or vise versa. I'm not of the opinion that Zoro's stronger than Law, but the fact remains that Zoro hasn't been shown being serious as well.


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## Mihawk (Apr 29, 2013)

^Fine about the Ceasar part, and yes I agree that the VAs and Supernovas shouldn't be underestimated.

I disagree with the Noah part, but to each his own then.


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## Dellinger (Apr 29, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> ^Fine about the Ceasar part, and yes I agree that the VAs and Supernovas shouldn't be underestimated.
> 
> I disagree with the Noah part, but to each his own then.



Sorry brah but no one is wanking Luffy.It's the exact opposite.People wank the shit out of Law and Vergo and make Luffy look like a wealking in front of them while this is not the case.When Luffy wanted to one shot both Hody and Caesar,he did it.There's no doubt about that.

Can Luffy beat Doflamingo?With the stuff he's shown until now,he can't.The same can be said for Law too though.


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## Coruscation (Apr 29, 2013)

It's really only tupadre who engages in EXTREMELY vocal overrating of Law and Vergo and downplaying of Luffy. Don't take him to be representative of the section as a whole. He's just the most obnoxious.

Luffy, like most characters, is periodically both wanked and downplayed. Let's just leave it there and call both as they are when we see them, because they are both stupid and deserve being called out.


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## Blind Justice (Apr 29, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> Vergo never owned Sanji in the first place.He may indeed cracked his leg but Sanji was still keeping up with him.



Vergo didn't own Sanji, but he was still fighting a losing battle which sanji acknowledged the fact that  "That was bad...if i had continued the fight"


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## tupadre97 (Apr 29, 2013)

Shingy said:


> The funny thing is, *Luffy did finish Caesar in one move,* and you're accusing me of wanking?
> 
> The form Caesar was using, prior to being one shotted by Luffy, was his most powerful form. His ideal form to fight anyone, and he even thought he could win, yet a Grizzly Magnum knocked his shit out.
> 
> ...



 He fought he three fucking times b4 he used his finishing move on him. Saying Grizzly Magnum one shot CC is like saying Jet gatling one shot Lucci. One shotting someone means defeating someone with one attack and not using any other attacks besides that one attack (one shot comes from the phrase one shot, one kill). Why in the hell are you completely ignoring the three fucking fights they had b4 he even used grizzly magnum? Why are u being so ignorant?


Doflαmingo said:


> ^What are you even talking about?
> 
> Luffy punched CC in the face once before CC transformed and made Luffy resort to using Grizzly Magnum
> 
> ...






Shingy said:


> So what you're saying is that Caesar, in full health, could tank a Grizzly Magnum? Fuck that.



 Fuck it. There's no point even arguing with someone this ignorant.


Coruscation said:


> It's really only tupadre who engages in EXTREMELY vocal overrating of Law and Vergo and downplaying of Luffy. Don't take him to be representative of the section as a whole. He's just the most obnoxious.
> 
> Luffy, like most characters, is periodically both wanked and downplayed. Let's just leave it there and call both as they are when we see them, because they are both stupid and deserve being called out.



Corus I never downplayed Luffy. Just bcuz I was acknowleding his weakness and how strong he actually is does not mean I was downplaying him. On the other hand you have been wanking and overrating him this whole thread. You even said Luffy is stronger than Vergo bcuz he destroyed some stone wall, wtf? Nobody's downplaying Luffy here, you ppl are just overrating him.

I haven't been overrating Law and Vergo either. All I did was point out the obvious that Vergo was stronger than anyone in the M3 and would beat them in a straight up fight. Its you guys who are coming up with all this baseless reasons why he cannot, like saying Luffy is stronger than him bcuz he destroyed a fucking wall. Its really sad when thats how low you have to stoop to try and convice ppl of your ridiculous beliefs.


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## Mihawk (Apr 29, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> Sorry brah but no one is wanking Luffy.It's the exact opposite.People wank the shit out of Law and Vergo and make Luffy look like a wealking in front of them while this is not the case.When Luffy wanted to one shot both Hody and Caesar,he did it.There's no doubt about that.
> 
> Can Luffy beat Doflamingo?With the stuff he's shown until now,he can't.The same can be said for Law too though.



I'm not saying Law>Luffy or that Law stands more of a chance at beating Dofla then Luffy does.

I really don't think they can defeat him with anything less than either a combined effort, or a consecutive one. But that is for another time.


Also, I don't think that there are ALOT of people who wank Vergo except maybe one or two obvious posters. The general consensus of most people is that Vergo is around Sanji's ballpark and could potentially beat Sanji in a very, very difficult fight, but that Vergo is overall, below Luffy.  I agree with those notions, and the way I see it, I'd say that a fight between Sanji & Vergo could really go either way, while Zoro would certainly win at extreme difficulty, with Luffy beating Vergo with no less than high difficulty. That's the way I see it.


And when I say Luffy is wanked, I don't mean to exempt Law from that as well. 

It's the rookie wank as a whole recently, that has been plaguing this section. That includes both Law & Luffy.

You have people in the other thread saying that Law would low-mid diff Jinbe, so I'm well aware that Law is wanked to the heavens, but the wank of both characters have been pretty retarded in conjunction with each other.

There are people who believe that Law & Luffy are both top tiers now, which would not make any sense towards the story at the current moment, nor has it seemed apparent at all.

I despise the overrating and overestimation of Law just as much as I do for that of Luffy. 

Also, as a character, I like Luffy far more than Law, for the record.


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## Dellinger (Apr 29, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> I'm not saying Law>Luffy or that Law stands more of a chance at beating Dofla then Luffy does.
> 
> I really don't think they can defeat him with anything less than either a combined effort, or a consecutive one. But that is for another time.
> 
> ...



Well,I don't have something to say since I agree with most of the stuff you said but regarding Luffy,I want to say one thing.Let's just see him fighting with a strong opponent and see him taking it seriously.Only then we can talk about him being top tier or shit tier or whatever.

(Obviously he won't be a top tier but you get my point)


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## zorokuma (Apr 29, 2013)

about luffy "one shotting" ceaser.

the fact is that they fought 3 times and a few hits were taken and dodged etc before luffy beat him with grizzly magnum. So ceaser was not one shotted.



That being said, one can argue that if luffy began the first fight bloodlusted and used grizzly magnum right off the bat instead of huging CC, he would of probably been one shotted.


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## Dellinger (Apr 29, 2013)

zorokuma said:


> about luffy "one shotting" ceaser.
> 
> the fact is that they fought 3 times and a few hits were taken and dodged etc before luffy beat him with grizzly magnum. So ceaser was not one shotted.
> 
> ...



in the first fight,Luffy got 2 hits on Caesar and Caesar was almost out.
In the second fight,he again got 2 hits on him and he was ready to finish him off with a Hardening Jet Gatling.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 29, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> in the first fight,Luffy got 2 hits on Caesar and Caesar was almost out.
> In the second fight,he again got 2 hits on him and he was ready to finish him off with a Hardening Jet Gatling.



IIRC CC really wasn't *that* hurt by Luffy's attacks. In the second fight he *might* have been taken out by the jet gatling but we don't know that for sure (especially seeing how jet gatling<grizzly magnum so we really can't guess its true strength).


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## Coruscation (Apr 29, 2013)

> All I did was point out the obvious that Vergo was stronger than anyone in the M3 and would beat them in a straight up fight. Its you guys who are coming up with all this baseless reasons why he cannot, like saying Luffy is stronger than him bcuz he destroyed a fucking wall.



No, it's you who don't HAVE any reasons. You do nothing but state your personal opinions and assertions as fact and imply that people are dumb if they don't agree. You don't engage in any kind of fair-minded empirical comparison. You just make statements. You've convinced yourself that all these various things are "obvious" and so you don't have to defend them. Somehow the fact that *virtually everyone disagrees with you about them being obvious* doesn't even make you think twice about that. You obviously have no understand of how to hold even a half-decent debate, which is reflected in your inability to understand opposing arguments. When I mentioned Luffy exploding a 100s of feet rock wall in one attack? That was a _part_ of my argument, tupadre. A good argument consists of as many pieces of independent evidence as possible. I brought it up to demonstrate that even what empirical evidence exists fails to support your position, even on something that I don't even disagree with you about (G2-less Luffy's attacks vs. Vergo's). It's not the reason Luffy is stronger than Vergo. It's one small part of an argument made up of many separate pieces, adding up to a whole far stronger than what you have managed to present.

Just stop embarassing yourself already. It'll be evident that you're wrong sooner or later and then you'll look pretty stupid having yelled about how "obvious" it is that Vergo is stronger than Luffy for months.


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## zorokuma (Apr 29, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> IIRC CC really wasn't *that* hurt by Luffy's attacks. In the second fight he *might* have been taken out by the jet gatling but we don't know that for sure (especially seeing how jet gatling<grizzly magnum so we really can't guess its true strength).



in the second fight did u see CC's face when luffy was about to attack? there is no might, he would of gotten taken out by jet gatling.  Just saying.

and in the first fight, luffy had no knowledge, was not bloodlusted and was playing around, and was trying to capture him.  

im curious to get your opinion, if he started the first fight with grizzly magnum, what do you think would of happened?


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## tupadre97 (Apr 29, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> No, it's you who don't HAVE any reasons. You do nothing but state your personal opinions and assertions as fact and imply that people are dumb if they don't agree. You don't engage in any kind of fair-minded empirical comparison. You just make statements. You've convinced yourself that all these various things are "obvious" and so you don't have to defend them. Somehow the fact that *virtually everyone disagrees with you about them being obvious* doesn't even make you think twice about that. You obviously have no understand of how to hold even a half-decent debate, which is reflected in your inability to understand opposing arguments. When I mentioned Luffy exploding a 100s of feet rock wall in one attack? That was a _part_ of my argument, tupadre. A good argument consists of as many pieces of independent evidence as possible. I brought it up to demonstrate that even what empirical evidence exists fails to support your position, even on something that I don't even disagree with you about (G2-less Luffy's attacks vs. Vergo's). It's not the reason Luffy is stronger than Vergo. It's one small part of an argument made up of many separate pieces, adding up to a whole far stronger than what you have managed to present.
> 
> Just stop embarassing yourself already. It'll be evident that you're wrong sooner or later and then you'll look pretty stupid having yelled about how "obvious" it is that Vergo is stronger than Luffy for months.



Believe what ever you want Corus. I'm not arguing with someone like you. Pretend like your giving evidence for your argument when your not I really don't give a darn what you say until you provide some real proof. You obviously can't seeing how the best thing you could come up with is Luffy destroying a wall and Vergo not doing it. It really sad and pathetic seeing you grasping at straws and trying to make yourself seem intelligent when you know you can't back up your own argument.

Since you so certain that your argument had all this evidence to back it up, post it as a simple outline so I can clearly see what you were trying to say and critique your opinion. If you don't want to do that then stfu and stop responding to me. I done talking to someone who can't even recognize the faults of his own argument and just attack other ppl like they don't know what they're talking about.


zorokuma said:


> *in the second fight did u see CC's face when luffy was about to attack?* there is no might, he would of gotten taken out by jet gatling.  Just saying.
> 
> and in the first fight, luffy had no knowledge, was not bloodlusted and was playing around, and was trying to capture him.
> 
> im curious to get your opinion, if he started the first fight with grizzly magnum, what do you think would of happened?



Ok well he always made some kind of face b4 he gets hit thats just how he is. There is still really no way to know if it was strong enough to KO CC. Also if Luffy would have just used Grizzly magnum from the beginning you know CC could just, you know avoid it. It wouldn't even make sense for Luffy to go for his strongest attacks immediately in a fight unless he was fighting a very strong opponent which he was not doing (really the only time he immediately went for his strongest attack against somebody was when he fought Aokiji). Luffy wasn't fully serious the first two fights but when he did get serious the third fight he didn't one shot him or anything but he was kicking his ass pretty handily.


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## zorokuma (Apr 29, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Believe what ever you want Corus. I'm not arguing with someone like you. Pretend like your giving evidence for your argument when your not I really don't give a darn what you say until you provide some real proof. You obviously can't seeing how the best thing you could come up with is Luffy destroying a wall and Vergo not doing it. It really sad and pathetic seeing you grasping at straws and trying to make yourself seem intelligent when you know you can't back up your own argument.
> 
> Since you so certain that your argument had all this evidence to back it up, post it as a simple outline so I can clearly see what you were trying to say and critique your opinion. If you don't want to do that then stfu and stop responding to me. I done talking to someone who can't even recognize the faults of his own argument and just attack other ppl like they don't know what they're talking about.
> 
> ...





sooo he would just avoid it? like he avoided it the time luffy used it? or better yet, like he avoided luffy hugging him when they first met? imagine instead of hugging him luffy used grizzly magnum, u think CC could just, you know avoid it? cause grizzly magnum is much slower than a hug right?


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## tupadre97 (Apr 29, 2013)

zorokuma said:


> sooo he would just avoid it? like he avoided it the time luffy used it? or better yet, like he avoided luffy hugging him when they first met? imagine instead of hugging him luffy used grizzly magnum, u think CC could just, you know avoid it? cause grizzly magnum is much slower than a hug right?



I really don't see why CC would just stand there and let him hit him with grizzly magnum. It isn't like he just won't see it coming and since he is not as large as his shinokuni form and isn't afraid of Luffy or trying to reason with him he'll probably just dodge it. Of course if it hit him it would knock him out but why would he just stand there and get hit by a giant grizzly magnum he can see from a mile away. We already know he is fast enough to dodge G2 and G3 in his regular form so it wouldn't be impossible for him to dodge it would it not?


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## Shingy (Apr 30, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> He fought he three fucking times b4 he used his finishing move on him. Saying Grizzly Magnum one shot CC is like saying Jet gatling one shot Lucci. *One shotting someone means defeating someone with one attack and not using any other attacks besides that one attack *(one shot comes from the phrase one shot, one kill). Why in the hell are you completely ignoring the three fucking fights they had b4 he even used grizzly magnum? Why are u being so ignorant?
> Fuck it. There's no point even arguing with someone this ignorant.





tupadre97 said:


> *Of course if it hit him it would knock him out *but why would he just stand there and get hit by a giant grizzly magnum he can see from a mile away.



This is exactly why you're not worth debating, and precisely the reason I didn't reply to your idiotic, hypocritical, half assed argument.

At least stick by what you say.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 30, 2013)

Shingy said:


> This is exactly why you're not worth debating, and precisely the reason I didn't reply to your idiotic, hypocritical, half assed argument.
> 
> At least stick by what you say.


----------



## Shingy (Apr 30, 2013)

You've nothing to say so this is your concession.


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## zorokuma (Apr 30, 2013)

sigh, tupadre,luffy hugged ceaser when they met, if instead of hugging him he used grizzly magnum, cc would of been oneshotted and punk hazard would of ended early. moral of the story- Luffy can one shot CC. you, without admitting it somehow seem to agree, so lets go back on topic now ok? monster trio vs the 3 vice admirals. go


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## Furinji Saiga (Apr 30, 2013)

all these people are more or less on the same power level, small differences between them.

So it comes down to who has the better team work, which is obviously the M3. 

M3 take it very high difficulty.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 30, 2013)

zorokuma said:


> sigh, tupadre,luffy hugged ceaser when they met, if instead of hugging him he used grizzly magnum, cc would of been oneshotted and punk hazard would of ended early. moral of the story- Luffy can one shot CC. you, without admitting it somehow seem to agree, so lets go back on topic now ok? monster trio vs the 3 vice admirals. go



You do realize when Luffy hugged CC he was using G2 right? You do also know that G3 is slower than G2 right? Sure Luffy can one shot CC if he uses it immediately but there are many factors that go along with that, like whether or not CC will just stand there and take it, which he will not. Saying Luffy can one shot CC just bcuz he can use grizzly magnum is like saying he could one shot Lucci any time in Enies Lobby bcuz he could use G3 or Jet gatling. Fights aren't that simple and Luffy doesn't just whip out his strongest attacks immediately its just not in his character to do so.


Furinji Saiga said:


> all these people are more or less on the same power level, small differences between them.
> 
> *So it comes down to who has the better team work, which is obviously the M3. *
> 
> M3 take it very high difficulty.



Ehh that may be true but I think Vergo would be the deciding factor in this fight. He could probably beat someone in base form and still have energy to spare and use his full body form and that should be the deciding factor in the battle for his team. However depending on how strong of weak momonga is someone in the M3 can beat him then help someone to beat Vergo, so I don't really know for sure but I think it would go to team vergo.


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## Dellinger (May 1, 2013)

Luffy never used Gear 2nd to catch Caesar.


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## tupadre97 (May 1, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> Luffy never used Gear 2nd to catch Caesar.



Reread the chapter


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## Dellinger (May 1, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Reread the chapter



Show me where is Luffy using Gear 2nd.

These are the last 2 pages of chapter 670.


*Spoiler*: __ 



http://eu.batoto.net/comics/2013/01/12/o/read50f13c5496f20/img000017.png


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## Imagine (May 1, 2013)

M3 very high diff. We don't know just how strong Momo is atm. He could easily be a wild card in this match.


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## tupadre97 (May 1, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> Show me where is Luffy using Gear 2nd.
> 
> These are the last 2 pages of chapter 670.
> 
> ...



Remember how right after CC escaped Luffy's grasp he started used jet mace and stamp?




I don't recall Luffy using G2 anytime after he caught CC so he must have used it b4 he caught him.


Imagine said:


> M3 very high diff. We don't know just how strong Momo is atm. He could easily be a wild card in this match.



Yeah it really all depends on how quickly they can beat Momonga or not


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## Coruscation (May 1, 2013)

Is even this too much for you? Luffy activates G2 in the blink of an eye nowadays for single moves. We can see his whole body and there is absolutely no steam anywhere. He used a Bell on Caesar before he used Mace which was just a regular one, no "Jet" involved. 

He was not in G2. That's the least debatable thing in this thread.


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## Dellinger (May 1, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Remember how right after CC escaped Luffy's grasp he started used jet mace and stamp?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## tupadre97 (May 2, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Is even this too much for you? Luffy activates G2 in the blink of an eye nowadays for single moves. We can see his whole body and there is absolutely no steam anywhere. He used a Bell on Caesar before he used Mace which was just a regular one, no "Jet" involved.
> 
> He was not in G2. That's the least debatable thing in this thread.



Ahh ok I see. But still CC wasn't paying attention to him and we have seen that he is fast enough to dodge G2 attacks when he is paying attention so yeah...


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## Dellinger (May 2, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Ahh ok I see. But still CC wasn't paying attention to him and we have seen that he is fast enough to dodge G2 attacks when he is paying attention so yeah...



Lol,Caesar was getting blitzed by base Luffy,Gear 2nd is overkill.No one has clearly avoided a gear 2nd attack after the time skip.


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## tupadre97 (May 2, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> Lol,Caesar was getting blitzed by base Luffy,Gear 2nd is overkill.No one has clearly avoided a gear 2nd attack after the time skip.



 I'm sorry what was that about base Luffy blitzing CC?



 and yeah sure no ones ever dodged G2 Luffy postskip


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## Dellinger (May 2, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> I'm sorry what was that about base Luffy blitzing CC?
> 
> 
> 
> and yeah sure no ones ever dodged G2 Luffy postskip



The links aren't showing.

Blitz


Blitz


Blitz


Show me someone dodging Gear 2nd Luffy PTS.


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## tupadre97 (May 2, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> The links aren't showing.
> 
> Blitz
> 
> ...









Luffy may be faster than CC but he has dodged and reacted to him, stop acting like he hasn't.


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## Dellinger (May 2, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Luffy may be faster than CC but he has dodged and reacted to him, stop acting like he hasn't.



Caesar was hurt by the Jet Pistol.


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## Coruscation (May 3, 2013)

Not a single one of those scenes is Caesar dodging G2. No one has dodged G2 since the timeskip, least of all Caesar Clown. Stop lying or improve your reading comprehension, tupadre. Whichever's at fault here.


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## tupadre97 (May 3, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> Caesar was hurt by the Jet Pistol.



 It grazed him. He dodged it for the most part.


Coruscation said:


> Not a single one of those scenes is Caesar dodging G2. No one has dodged G2 since the timeskip, least of all Caesar Clown. Stop lying or improve your reading comprehension, tupadre. Whichever's at fault here.



 gtfo corus. I literally show you a panel of the guy dodging G2 and you say he didn't dodge it. Wtf is wrong with you ppl.

The bias and selective reasoning in ur posts are absolutely appalling.


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## Dellinger (May 3, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> It grazed him. He dodged it for the most part.
> 
> 
> gtfo corus. I literally show you a panel of the guy dodging G2 and you say he didn't dodge it. Wtf is wrong with you ppl.
> ...



He was hurt 


Also are you implying that when Luffy went like a retard to hug him,he was using Gear 2nd?Seriously?


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## zorokuma (May 3, 2013)

im sorry, which one of those scans did CC dodge gear 2? i saw one scan where luffy was not in gear 2, the second one I saw luffy in gear 2 hitting CC and the third one I saw CC complaining about how much it hurt......


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## tupadre97 (May 3, 2013)

What part of *grazed* dont u ppl understand? CC dispersed at pretty much the same time Luffy was about to hit him so it *grazed* him a bit but he avoided most of the damage. How hard is that to understand?


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## cry77 (May 3, 2013)

If it only grazed him he wouldnt be crying like a lil' bitch


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## zorokuma (May 3, 2013)

that is a graze.

cc got the g2 punch in the face.

if u still think its a graze then ur saying that a non hardened g2 punch is stronger than a g3 hardened punch..............

stop it tupadre....stop it.


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## tupadre97 (May 3, 2013)

zorokuma said:


> that is a graze.
> 
> cc got the g2 punch in the face.
> 
> ...



Sure it hit him, whatever you say. I still don't see how CC is just gonna get hit in the face with G2 but not get fly across the room but whatever.


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## Coruscation (May 4, 2013)

> I literally show you a panel of the guy dodging G2 and you say he didn't dodge it. Wtf is wrong with you ppl.
> 
> The bias and selective reasoning in ur posts are absolutely appalling.



There's a huge black bruise right in his face and he's screaming about how much it hurts. Can you think of any ways to embarass yourself further?


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## Lord Stark (May 4, 2013)

In that filler Momonga was matching Zoro, but Zoro wasn't even going all out.


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## tupadre97 (May 4, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> There's a huge black bruise right in his face and he's screaming about how much it hurts. Can you think of any ways to embarass yourself further?





Bruise? Where do u see a bruise? Do you not remember thats how he looked in his gas form in the beginning of the arc. Lol Corus u are just too funny. Ur ignorance and failed attempts at ad-hominem attacks are hilarious.

This is why I'm saying he dodged it bcuz there is no bruise or anything on his face and if he got hit then there would be. If you can't accept that obvious fact then it just proves how painfully obvious ur bias and selective reasoning really is.


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## Coruscation (May 4, 2013)

> Bruise? Where do u see a bruise?



This is just too sad. Zoom in or get a better pair of eyes. Also contemplate for a moment whether someone screaming "AH~ IT HURTS YOU BASTARD" may be an implication that they took a hit that hurt a lot.


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## Lycka (May 4, 2013)

Considering the fact the *both* Luffy and Zoro are definitively stronger than Vergo, Smoker, and Monmoga this is an easy one. 

The Monster trio take it *mid difficulty*.


 Luffy fighting Vergo would *NOT* result in a Lucci style fight, but end in a difficulty more akin to Zoro vs Kaku. *Vergo is not strong enough to beat Zoro* either for a plethora of reasons. *Smoker can not beat Luffy nor Zoro* either, that's a given. And Monmoga's portrayal against hancock, his stalemating a relaxed zoro with 2 swords in the anime, being a grandline paradise VA, and his equal-ness to shouzous (thus being weaker than Ain whom Zoro beat without any single scar or bruise) *paints us a clear picture Monmoga also is not up to par.*

Sanji more than tips the scale greatly considering he can beat Vergo himself.


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## tupadre97 (May 4, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> This is just too sad. Zoom in or get a better pair of eyes. Also contemplate for a moment whether someone screaming "AH~ IT HURTS YOU BASTARD" may be an implication that they took a hit that hurt a lot.



 Smfh no reason to even respond at this point. Idk where u see a bruise but if u really think there is one when there clearly isn't Idk wat to tell you. U really are delusional huh? Well I guess I can't expect much from a guy who thinks Luffy is stronger than Vergo bcuz he broke a wall.


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## MYJC (May 5, 2013)

Luffy high-diff's Smoker
Zoro beats Momonga (not sure what diff, but he wins)
Sanji holds off Vergo until Luffy/Zoro finishes their fight and helps him

So yeah, I say the M3 high-diff this overall. Good match, btw.


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## Zyrax D Buggy (May 6, 2013)

If anything it would be zoro vs momonga
Luffy vs smoker and Vergo vs Sanji
Why would luffy fight momonga


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## tupadre97 (May 6, 2013)

MYJC said:


> Luffy high-diff's Smoker
> Zoro beats Momonga (not sure what diff, but he wins)
> Sanji holds off Vergo until Luffy/Zoro finishes their fight and helps him
> 
> So yeah, I say the M3 high-diff this overall. Good match, btw.



Hmm I suppose this is possible. Imo I dont think Luffy would beat Smoker bcuz we haven't really seen what he can do yet and he has the ability to one shot him, but it could go this way. Sanji might be able to hold off Vergo long enough for Luffy and Zoro to win but he might lose to fast to Vergo, if that happens its all over. So really it could go either way.


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## DoflaMihawk (May 6, 2013)

Team Vergo win, since I feel they're all stronger than the M3.


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## Dellinger (May 7, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Bruise? Where do u see a bruise? Do you not remember thats how he looked in his gas form in the beginning of the arc. Lol Corus u are just too funny. Ur ignorance and failed attempts at ad-hominem attacks are hilarious.
> 
> This is why I'm saying he dodged it bcuz there is no bruise or anything on his face and if he got hit then there would be. If you can't accept that obvious fact then it just proves how painfully obvious ur bias and selective reasoning really is.



Lol,there is a bruise.


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## Mihawk (May 7, 2013)

U guys need to stop using filler feats.

And if anything, they were fighting evenly In that filler.


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## Lycka (May 7, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> U guys need to stop using *filler feats*.
> 
> And if anything, they were fighting evenly In that filler.



While they shouldn't be taken as facts, they do provide an idea of where a particular character stands.


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## Zorofangirl24 (May 7, 2013)

2 kicks from vergo and sanjis leg will be broken


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## Lycka (May 7, 2013)

Haruhifan6969 said:


> 2 kicks from vergo and sanjis leg will be broken



Do you think Zoro could take on Vergo and Luffy and win?


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## Turrin (May 7, 2013)

Momonga & Sanji are the big if factors here. I'm sure Luffy & Zoro could take Vergo and Smoker with at worst high difficulty. However if Momonga were stronger than Vergo and Smoker than things get tricky as Luffy would have to take on Momonga & we don't know for sure if Luffy could beat him. While Sanji would also have to take on Vergo or Smoker and we don't know if he could beat one of them.

My personal guess would be that Straw Hats win with Mid-High difficulty, but as illustrated above there is no way to know for sure.


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