# Itachi vs Jiraya and Tsunade



## hbcaptain (Oct 18, 2015)

Location : Itachi vs Sasuke .
Distance : 30m
Restrictions : None
Knowledge : Jiraya and Tsunade knows about Itachi's Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu , aside from that no knowledge for both sides
Conditions :
-Itachi start with normal black eyes .
-Jiraya and Tsunade start without their summonings .


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## Hachibi (Oct 18, 2015)

Well yeah.

Itachi vs Jiraiya is already debatable.

Give one of them someone not that far for their level (and is also a good support) and well.

Thing could change if Itachi is an Edo and get his game-only PS


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## Mercurial (Oct 18, 2015)

I don't see any problem for Itachi to win against both Jiraiya and Tsunade at the same time.


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## USBT (Oct 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Location : Itachi vs Sasuke .
> Distance : 30m
> Restrictions : None
> Knowledge : Jiraya and Tsunade knows about Itachi's Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu , aside from that no knowledge for both sides
> ...


Itachi would lose (never thought I'd say that) against two sanin? He could definitely hold his own for a while, but they would win eventually.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 18, 2015)

Just 2 Sannin?

 You need at least 4 Sannin for them to have a chance against Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 18, 2015)

You gotta increase the number of the sannin.

Jiraiya and Tsunade get annihilated. 

Jiraiya is never getting to SM, not in this location and distance. Tsunade is just fodder for Totsuka.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 18, 2015)

Jiraiya would have more than enough time to get into Sage Mode if Tsunade just summoned Katsuyu with its absurd segmenting ability and telepathic connection to her via the Byakugō no In.

Especially if he used a clone to work with them during that time or something.


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## Alucardemi (Oct 18, 2015)

Genjutsu's one right off the bat, Totsuka-blitzes the other. If not, fucks them up with kunai and exploding bunshin coupled with untrackable seal speed.

Damn, Itachi is a fucking King.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 18, 2015)

Tsunade without knowledge is going to fall very quickly to Itachi's Susano. Same way Oro did. "This level of damage isn't going to ki-". Afterwards it is Itachi vs emotionally compromised J-Man(likely in Base). Which isn't going to to end well for Sannin.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 18, 2015)

So Itachi without intel on the Sannin is going to pull out the Totsuka _early on_?

Tsunade _with_ intel on 7-day-long Amaterasu is going to approach Itachi herself with with Sōzō Saisei — Byakugō no Jutsu activated, instead of summoning to help buy time for Jiraiya's Sage Mode?


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## Crow (Oct 18, 2015)

No Itachi is not about to pull Tosuka out of his ass with no knowledge. 
Tsunade activates Byagakou and then if prompted Jiriya will summon his frogs. 
Tsunade will serve as a distraction while j-man is going sage mode.
When Tsunade have Byagakou and J-man has sage mode they will beat itachi.
Mid-Diff


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## Alex Payne (Oct 18, 2015)

Itachi using Susano early is more plausible than this Katsuyu strategy that only appears in BD threads. Jiraiya running away with SM prep instead of using his respectable Base arsenal to support Tsunade is also quite debatable. Think about characters personalities first. And not about best possible tactics that you were able to think up. We saw Tsunade's own choice of tactics when fighting Uchiha. Not a very sophisticated choice of moves that was.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 18, 2015)

Tsunade and Jiraya know that they can't look on Itachi eyes , then both of them can't react to Amaterasu espacially if it's a surprise attack , they will be blitzed by it .


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## FlamingRain (Oct 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Itachi using Susano early is more plausible than this Katsuyu strategy that only appears in BD threads. Jiraiya running away with SM prep instead of using his respectable Base arsenal to support Tsunade is also quite debatable. Think about characters personalities first. And not about best possible tactics that you were able to think up. We saw Tsunade's own choice of tactics when fighting Uchiha. Not a very sophisticated choice of moves that was.



Itachi quickly pulling out his ultimate weapon on two ninja he has no knowledge on is not more plausible than the _Slug Princess_ summoning _a slug_ that can perpetually segment its body instead of charging directly at someone who she knows can effectively bypass her ultimate regeneration when they light her on fire for several days.

Madara cannot do that to her.



was Jiraiya's tactic when he went up against another legendary pair of eyes in the manga.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 18, 2015)

Itachi solo's

Neither are fast enough to avoid anything he has. And both can fall under Genjutsu which makes this a stomp.

Which is funny because I actually think they are near him tier wise, this is just an awful matchup for them.


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## Itachі (Oct 18, 2015)

Itachi loses, especially with Jiraiya & Tsunade having knowledge on his abilities. Without knowledge, Itachi's going to put one of them into a Genjutsu from the offset, which the other will dispel. Itachi can't put Jiraiya into a Genjutsu then try and kill him while he's unaware, Tsunade would have him. Jiraiya has shown himself to be particularly smart, with Tsunade's backup as well it's hard to believe that Itachi could blindside them or Bunshin feint them.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 18, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Itachi quickly pulling out his ultimate weapon on two ninja he has no knowledge on is not more plausible than the _Slug Princess_ summoning _a slug_ that can perpetually segment its body instead of charging directly at someone who she knows can effectively bypass her ultimate regeneration when they light her on fire for several days.
> 
> Madara cannot do that to her.
> 
> ...



Jiraiya leaving himself almost defenseless against Itachi for a minute or two is the worst course of action he can take, even if it is his only course of action.

Itachi will catch him and kill him.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 18, 2015)

He isn't almost defenseless, though, because Tsunade is there.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 18, 2015)

She is a part of the "almost"


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## Ghoztly (Oct 18, 2015)

This is a royal stomp. I can't see this being a long debate, maybe the few disillusioned people might attempt. The reality is they can't counter anything Itachi does. He's faster, smarter, and his entire arsenal would stomp either and both of them. 

Pitting characters who have no genjutsu defense as it is against Itachi will always result in a wipe. They can't even avoid Amaterasu for christ sakes.


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## Six (Oct 18, 2015)

Waiting for the Katsuya is enough comments to start coming in


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## Six (Oct 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Tsunade and Jiraya know that they can't look on Itachi eyes , then both of them can't react to Amaterasu espacially if it's a surprise attack , they will be blitzed by it .



Despite knowing Itachi's abilities with genjutsu he still stared him down in pt 1. Why do you have to resort to lying?  If Itachi were evil he would have destroyed Jiraiya


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## David (Oct 18, 2015)

Jiraiya and Tsunade could probably beat some people that Itachi can't, but the sad truth is that Jiraiya and Tsunade can't counter Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu & Susano'o + legendary weapons while doing their best to avoid eye contact.

As Law Trafalgar just said, Jiraiya looked Itachi in the eye in their first encounter when he *must* have known full well about the Sharingan and a serious IC with the intent to kill Itachi would just distract Tsunade with a crow bunshin and Tsukiyomi Jiraiya right there.

Plus Tsunade and Jiraiya aren't accustomed to fighting without properly looking at their opponents and Itachi could just use that factor to Amaterasu and/or Totsuka both of them.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 18, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:
			
		

> Despite knowing Itachi's abilities with genjutsu he still stared him down in pt 1. Why do you have to resort to lying? If Itachi were evil he would have destroyed Jiraiya


Yeah , but Tsunade can instantly heel him form Tsukuyomi just like she did to Kakashi , but I agree if she ate it herself she is fucked . Otherwise , Itachi have ways to kill the two of them .


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## David (Oct 18, 2015)

The problem with Tsukiyomi is that in the matter of like a second Jiraiya would have gone through many hours of whatever torture Itachi chose to put him through.

In the time it takes Tsunade to break Jiraiya out of Tsukiyomi, it would have most likely had its effect on Jiraiya.


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## Six (Oct 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Yeah , but Tsunade can instantly heel him form Tsukuyomi just like she did to Kakashi , but I agree if she ate it herself she is fucked . Otherwise , Itachi have ways to kill the two of them .



And Itachi is just going to stand around and let her do this? Even if he did, Jiraiya is not going to suddenly be 100% ready to fight, Kakashi and Sasuke were still fucked afterwards for like a week. Christ, your image of Itachi is so far from the manga that you've convinced you self it's canon.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 18, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> And Itachi is just going to stand around and let her do this? Even if he did, Jiraiya is not going to suddenly be 100% ready to fight, Kakashi and Sasuke were still fucked afterwards for like a week. Christ, your image of Itachi is so far from the manga that you've convinced you self it's canon.


You may be right , if she try to heal him , she will be blitzed by Amaterasu .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 18, 2015)

Tsunade healed already 1 week comatosed Sasuke and Kakashi and they didn't wake up immediately in fighting shape.
And even if we assume that she can somehow revive Jiraiya in perfect fighting shape she actually needs the opportunity to heal him, which is pretty doubtful.

Although Tsukiyomi isn't their biggest problem here.
Amaterasu and Susano'O are. Having knowledge of Amaterasu doesn't help these two as they don't have any natural counter for it. If they throw smoke bombs and retreat, then Itachi nails them with Totsuka through the dust cloud.


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## Sans (Oct 18, 2015)

What state is Itachi in?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 18, 2015)

The problem with mangekyo spam, particularly one where he uses two separate abilities, is that it leaves Itachi vulnerable during the backlash.  It was confirmed by Kakashi that Itachi's PI uses gave him backlash, and we saw during the Sasuke fight that he had difficulties performing properly after each MS usage.  We also have the instance where Kakashi couldn't save Sakura from Sasuke specifically because it happened immediately after he used the mangekyo, and we saw it each time Sasuke whored his eyes out after unlocking Mangekyo.  You can try to make excuses for those instances, but that is a canonical weakness of MS, and Itachi is not so far above a Sannin that he can suffer a significant performance drop mid-battle and not be killed for it.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 18, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Despite knowing Itachi's abilities with genjutsu he still stared him down in pt 1. Why do you have to resort to lying?  If Itachi were evil he would have destroyed Jiraiya





David said:


> As Law Trafalgar just said, Jiraiya looked Itachi in the eye in their first encounter when he *must* have known full well about the Sharingan and a serious IC with the intent to kill Itachi would just distract Tsunade with a crow bunshin and Tsukiyomi Jiraiya right there.



Can either of you guys actually tell that Jiraiya looked Itachi directly in the eyes as opposed to into Itachi's general direction, like Gai did when explaining it was fine so long as they didn't look directly into Itachi's eyes?

They also start this fight 30 meters apart. One Sannin primarily uses ranged techniques when he fights anyway and the other knows she risks being lit on fire for a week if she tries fighting in closer proximity but can still summon giant slugs. Itachi knows nothing about them as per the OP.

Itachi distracting Tsunade with a crow clone and then dropping Jiraiya in the meantime with Tsukuyomi is not even going to be coming close to happening.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 18, 2015)

30m in the Uchiha Hideout probably breaks line of site.

Add to that the no intel stipulation, save for the two Sannin knowing about two of his best moves, and Itachi is at a disadvantage from the start.

Katsuyu indoors could be a nightmare, and Jiraiya can use Gamaguchi Shibari to turn the interior of the hideout into his weapon--forcing Itachi to use Amaterasu right off the bat.

Plus, it's two-on-one.

Jiraiya and Tsunade should win this, with some difficulty. Itachi'd probably be smart enough to retreat after breaking free of the whole complex.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 18, 2015)

I didn't really think about it like that.  Good points Niku.


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## LightningForce (Oct 18, 2015)

Itachi is fast and his clone feints + genjutsu would be lethal opponents one-on-one, but against two Kage-level opponents it's not smart to waste chakra like that. That said, Tsukuyomi would wreck at least one and it's almost impossible to fight Itachi without looking at him directly. But then he'll be at a momentary handicap, leaving him wide for an opening for the other remaining. Ama is pretty much a one-shot without SM sensing or a barrier put up. Tsunade can probably fight for a while covered in black flames though LOL.

I would bank on the Sannin duo. Jiraiya and Tsunade have good synergy going for them. Tsunade's Byakugo-enhanced chakra pump into Jiraiya means that his Katon fires literally become more widespread destructive and cover a larger AOE. Itachi's Katon and Suiton counters are nothing compared to that.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The problem with mangekyo spam, particularly one where he uses two separate abilities, is that it leaves Itachi vulnerable during the backlash.  It was confirmed by Kakashi that Itachi's PI uses gave him backlash, and we saw during the Sasuke fight that he had difficulties performing properly after each MS usage.  We also have the instance where Kakashi couldn't save Sakura from Sasuke specifically because it happened immediately after he used the mangekyo, and we saw it each time Sasuke whored his eyes out after unlocking Mangekyo.  You can try to make excuses for those instances, but that is a canonical weakness of MS, and Itachi is not so far above a Sannin that he can suffer a significant performance drop mid-battle and not be killed for it.



This pretty much sums up what I was thinking of, but remember Itachi was using Susano'o even on the verge of death and right after using Amaterasu. So if Jiraiya and Tsunade go in for an opening while they think Itachi is down exhausted, they could walk right into a Susano'o arm vicegrip/Totsuka blade. Basically what Itachi did to Orochimaru.


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## Trojan (Oct 18, 2015)

This thread again? 

We already have the clear answer from the manga which is the fact that Jiraiya >/= to itachi by himself.
With Tsunade they shit on the little kid without much terrible. 

Other than that, it will only be fanboys bumbling nonsense about their favourite (from either side)  and exaggerate
the hell out of either one.


Funny fact tho, itachi's fans used to/still? say that itachi is Kishi's favourite and they don't expect him to make itachi
loses...etc etc. Which is also proven wrong and Kishi stated that Jiraiya is his favorite (after Naruto) and if he  were
to write the manga from another perspective, it will be from Jiraiya's perspective. He went on about Jiraiya is extremely skilled ninja as well.


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## Zef (Oct 18, 2015)

So let me get this straight......

Two Sannin 
-With knowledge 
-Against a person with low stamina and (presumably) a fatal illness




Jiraiya & Tsunade no difficulty.


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## Ersa (Oct 19, 2015)

With the stipulations they'd stand a good chance against sickly Itachi and get absolutely trashed by Edo Itachi.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 19, 2015)

In no realm can they even lay a hand on Itachi. They lack the speed and can't even do anything, Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi both gg them hard. He won't even need to use Susanoo lmao. Are you guys for real? They aren't smarter, they won't catch him off guard either, just how do you expect either of them to even hit him? They are slugs compared to his speed. Infact, just use his finger genjutsu to gg them both, why waste the chakra and vision.

it literally takes two attacks to oneshot them both with medium difficulty due to his haggard  and sick ass, but he would still do it.


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## Trojan (Oct 19, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> *In no realm can they even lay a hand on Itachi.* They lack the speed and can't even do anything, Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi both gg them hard. He won't even need to use Susanoo lmao. Are you guys for real? They aren't smarter, they won't catch him off guard either, just how do you expect either of them to even hit him? They are slugs compared to his speed. Infact, just use his finger genjutsu to gg them both, why waste the chakra and vision.
> 
> it literally takes two attacks to oneshot them both with medium difficulty due to his haggard  and sick ass, but he would still do it.


Except in the manga's realm. 
But I agree that in the fan-fiction realm that would probably be impossible. 

the rest of your post screams fanboysim and bias.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 19, 2015)

Don't get me wrong, each is in the same tier in their own right, but this is an awful matchup. Literally his entire array of jutsu destroy them. They can't win, I tried thinking of a way they could and I just can't. Literally zero defense against his techniques. Tsunade can take a beating for sure but Itachi's techniques aren't just raw force, they are trickier than that.


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## Trojan (Oct 19, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Don't get me wrong, each is in the same tier in their own right, but this is an awful matchup. Literally his entire array of jutsu destroy them. They can't win, I tried thinking of a way they could and I just can't. Literally zero defense against his techniques. Tsunade can take a beating for sure but Itachi's techniques aren't just raw force, they are trickier than that.



itachi begs to differ


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## Sadgoob (Oct 19, 2015)

He was talkin' about Kurama. 

And you have to admit, Itachi saying Kurama could fight him to a draw and all of Akatsuki wouldn't make a difference makes more sense than Jiriaya, who Orochimaru didn't fear, but feared Itachi.​


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## Ghoztly (Oct 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> itachi begs to differ



Figured this was coming, as expected. No point in even debating with you. 

Use logic, I realize you love and hate some characters, but be real for once and unbias, they can't win.  Checking outta this thread as it's a 10/10 stomp for Itachi and I doubt a lengthy debate is ever coming because everyone logical knows this is the case. Well, besides Itachi downplayers that is.


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## Trojan (Oct 19, 2015)

@Strate
All JP people begs to differ. 



Ghoztly said:


> Figured this was coming, as expected. No point in even debating with you.
> 
> Use logic, I realize you love and hate some characters, but be real for once and unbias, they can't win.  Checking outta this thread as it's a 10/10 stomp for Itachi and I doubt a lengthy debate is ever coming because everyone logical knows this is the case. Well, besides Itachi downplayers that is.



So, you're the fanboy here who's wanking his character, but there is no point in debating canon fact? 

Yes, indeed, there is no point in debating with you. Keep using fan-fiction if it makes you happy. 

The amount of irony is astonishing, I'll give you that.


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## Trojan (Oct 19, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> He was talkin' about Kurama.
> *
> And you have to admit, Itachi saying Kurama could fight him to a draw and all of Akatsuki wouldn't make a difference makes more sense than Jiriaya, who Orochimaru didn't fear, but feared Itachi.*​



How so? When the Akatsuki has him and Obito who could control Kurama in a glance? 
And Kisame who can absorb the Bijuus chakra like there is no tomorrow like he did with B?

Not to mention they know that Naruto can't bring Kurama out to begin with. 

needless to say, no one brought the "Akatsuki" in that page anyway...


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## Sadgoob (Oct 19, 2015)

Kisame doesn't necessarily know about the loophole about the Sharingan and Kurama, plus the Sharingan control was probably retconned. But Kurama does have the believable raw power to justify that hype of matching Itachi, Kisame, and more backup, presumably from their biju-hunting organization. Jiraiya doesn't. Orochimaru was talking down to him and told the reader that Jiraiya had always been weaker. So it doesn't make sense for Orochimaru (with Edo Tensei!) to have feared approaching Itachi, yet not Jiraiya, if Jiriaya truly had the reputation to stalemate Itachi, Kisame, and more backup. 

On the other hand, Kurama had the hype of taking on all of Konoha and requiring the death of the legendary Fourth Hokage to seal away. In part one, the Yondaime Hokage was also hyped to be the strongest ninja ever. Itachi was solidly stronger than Orochimaru, who was portrayed as the most talented and dangerous of the Sannin, and thus Itachi would be approaching the level of the Yondaime and claiming to be able to "at best" stalemate Kurama.​


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## Trojan (Oct 19, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Kisame doesn't necessarily know about the loophole about the Sharingan and Kurama. But Kurama does have the believable raw power to justify that hype of matching Itachi, Kisame, and more backup, presumably from their biju-hunting organization. Jiraiya doesn't. Armless Orochimaru was talking down to him.​



Why wouldn't he? He already know about Obito and him controlling Yagura, a perfect host. 

Again, they only said "back up" no one said "Akatsuki" we know from Kakuzu that they have other
people working under them as well. 

Armless Oro was fighting a Jiraiya who was poisoned. The Sannin's battles is hardly a representation
of what they can do. And as the story went on, we have seen that all of them has something much
stronger than what they showed back then.

Meanwhile, at that point, itachi already showed 2 of his most wanked jutsu, and the only thing left
for him was just the Susanoo. 



> Orochimaru was talking down to him and told the reader that Jiraiya had always been weaker.


That just the Sasuke-nature-like thing because of them being rivals. In addition, Jiraiya also did not want to kill Oro but to bring him back (just like with Naruto
and Sasuke). Not as if that matters anyway, because it's just different match up.



> So it doesn't make sense for Orochimaru (with Edo Tensei!) to have feared approaching Itachi


The ET were weak even old Hiruzen dealt with them, and he was looking for Jiraiya to fight Oro because he knows that Jiraiya is stronger than him
at the time. Needless to say, Oro stated that itachi is stronger than him after he lost his ET and the rest of his jutsu. 


Stop trying to get me to your side by hyping Minato, that's a dirty trick!


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## Sadgoob (Oct 19, 2015)

When they say "back up" hunting a jinchuriki, they presumably mean other jinchuriki-hunting members of their organization. Not fodder. Especially if Orochimaru-whooping Itachi isn't enough. 

A much more reasonable outlook is that the Sharingan controlling Kurama hadn't been invented by the author yet. Kurama being the beast that caused the death of the strongest ninja in history.

(Before the Hashirama retcon and moon people bullshit.)

Itachi was, likewise, the strongest known ninja at the time if we assume, for the moment being, that hype applied to Kurama and not Jiraiya, and that Jiraiya was more comparable to Orochimaru.

As Orochimaru certainly thought Jiraiya was in (if not below) his league, and that Itachi was out of his league. And Orochimaru was the single most knowledgeable individual in the manga at that point.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 19, 2015)

If you look at Jiraiya's arsenal, or how he was portrayed, he was into huge and heavy ninjutsu.  The type that numbers don't matter against.  So adding more people against him doesn't really matter.  More people caught inside the toad stomach simply amounts to more victims.  As it turned out, Itachi could somehow deal with Jiraiya's jutsu, and Kisame was 0% helpful against Jiraiya.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 19, 2015)

We don't know if Kisame was 0% unable to deal with that jutsu. We only know that Kisame was so befuddled that Itachi chose to retreat from it that he had to ask him why he did so afterwards. 

I also think it's interesting that Jiraiya never fought a ninja capable of breaking that jutsu. Who was even the strongest confirmed ninja he beat then? We know he lost to Hanzo and Orochimaru.

Everything points to him being completely out of his league. Based on feats, Kisame would give him a very tough fight, and Itachi would absolutely wreck him (Jiraiya lacked all MS knowledge.)​


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## FlamingRain (Oct 19, 2015)

We know that Kisame was wide-eyed and sweating, before the Itachi who wasn't freaking out handled it.

There's also the databook mentioning that while Konoha couldn't be expected to fight against the Akatsuki Jiraiya could, and how Kakashi believed that Jiraiya's presence was why Akatsuki didn't make a move on Naruto over the timeskip, so Jiraiya does have the hype to justify Itachi and Kisame talking about him from the first part of the conversation.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> We know that Kisame was wide-eyed and sweating, before the Itachi who wasn't freaking out handled it.



Here's Jiraiya wide-eyed and sweating from base Gai's kick. It's called being surprised by something moving toward you. 

In Kisame's case, he was wide-eyed and sweating from the surprise of seeing walls of flesh swiftly moving in.​


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## FlamingRain (Oct 19, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Here's Jiraiya wide-eyed and sweating from base Gai's kick. It's called being surprised by something moving toward you.​



There was sweat on Jiraiya's face since he observed that the mountain toad's flesh was being burnt by those mysterious black flames.

Kisame already knew what was going on because it had been announced to him just a bit ago, so it wasn't surprise responsible for his expression but the feeling of pressure, which is why we get the _"at this rate..."_ from him as they continued running up the hallway, unlike Jiraiya who is merely surprised that Gai is attacking him out of nowhere and thus goes "Gai!?".


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## Sadgoob (Oct 19, 2015)

The sweat from observing Amaterasu had disappeared. Regardless, sweating from seeing a jutsu doesn't mean you it will defeat you. Gai sweated from seeing Tsukuyomi, but had a method to avoid it.​


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## FlamingRain (Oct 19, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The sweat from observing Amaterasu had disappeared.​



Seeing as it's in the same spot and it wasn't long since we saw it last I doubt it.



> Regardless, sweating from seeing a jutsu doesn't mean you it will defeat you.​



Maybe not necessarily, but it does point in one direction over the other. Especially when considered alongside the commentary about it and fact that somebody else dealt with it. Kisame asked "why is a retreat necessary for _you_ [Itachi]" _not_ "why is a retreat necessary for _us_" or "why is a retreat necessary for _me_".



> Gai sweated from seeing Tsukuyomi, but had a method to avoid it.​



_Where_?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 19, 2015)

Knowing the extent of Kisame's power, I don't see Jiriaya's jutsu beating him.



FlamingRain said:


> Seeing as it's in the same spot and it wasn't long since we saw it last I doubt it.



The spot below Jiraiya's eye in the page I linked is sweat-free.



FlamingRain said:


> _Where_?


_Here_.



FlamingRain said:


> Kisame asked "why is a retreat necessary for you [Itachi]."



Because Itachi is the one that ordered the retreat.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 19, 2015)

You mean you don't see that drop on his cheek in the panel at the top?


Gai does seem worried there, though. A different kind of worry (about the kids), but still.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 19, 2015)

_Here_

_Here_

_Here_

_Here_

Clearly not the same IMO.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 19, 2015)

I already knew about the images where there wasn't a drop drawn on Jiraiya's face when I first made that comment. I just think it's another case of Kishi leaving and coming back to it like he's done in other instances, though. But that's me.


I was talking about the drop on _Gai's_ face in that last post.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 19, 2015)

You guys sure love analyzing sweat drops.  Believe it or not, this isn't even the first time the NBD has spent a long time analyzing sweat.  Last time it was on Itachi's face.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 19, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Knowing the extent of Kisame's power, I don't see Jiriaya's jutsu beating him.



Yes, Kisame can make a lot of water, but he still could've already been caught by the technique before he actually managed to release enough to bust it.

He did just say those walls were swift, after all.


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## Duhul10 (Oct 19, 2015)

Are you really discussing if part 1 kisame would have defeated Jiraiya there? When drops of pee were flowing through his panties ?
About the match-up. The duo has no way to loose here ( they can loose in an OOC match, or it would be either way ), even though both base Jiraiya and tsunade are being outclassed in feats, having 30 meters between them means they would have time to use whatever jutsu they would want to. Summoning jutsu solves everything because from up there they can  immediately force Itachi to use susanoo, who will eventually run out.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 19, 2015)

Considering Kishi completely changed how these characters were portrayed in part 2, take whatever they said in part 1 with a grain of salt. I don't honestly believe in any of that junk anymore.

Kisame or Itachi would have torn Jiraiya apart. And I like how I was accused of being a fanboy just after stating I wanted to see some unbias discussion. Yet he exposes himself as an Itachi hater.

I don't take anything characters said in part 1 seriously anymore. Hashirama, Tobirama, Itachi, Kisame, the list goes on...they completely went against everything that was seen back then.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 19, 2015)

Jiraiya wrecks Kisame though.  Yomi Numa alone hard counters 90% of what makes Kisame scary.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Jiraiya wrecks Kisame though.  Yomi Numa alone hard counters 90% of what makes Kisame scary.



I guess I kind of see that. But still, their fear of him was a bit much considering what they were really capable of later on in the story.

Things sure do change.


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## Jad (Oct 19, 2015)

Yomi Numa being Kisame's bane is further from the truth. Especially when he absorbs Chakara and the technique is made of that. Downplay much?


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## Info Broker Izaya Orihara (Oct 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes, Kisame can make a lot of water, but he still could've already been caught by the technique before he actually managed to release enough to bust it.
> 
> He did just say those walls were swift, after all.


yes this is correct. Kisame would have been raped.

Itachi basically said Base Jiraiya > Base Itachi (they both didn't know about SM or MS so cancels out) + Kisame + 'backup (itachi said even if we had back up, it still worn change the outcome) meaning another akatsuki pair.
Tsunade is on the same level. Itachi loses. They break each other out of genjutsu. Amaterasu is scroll sealed by Jiraiya and Tsunade cuts off the body part that gets hit and regenerates. Gamarinsho bypasses Susanoo, Katsuyu melts it in the back and Tsunade jumps to the sky from katsuyu head, comes down, and punches ground, creating a massive rupture that shatters the ground and makes itachi lose his balance, and then a massive rasengan on the floor near itachi creates a shcokwave that kills him.

Sannin > Akatsuki
It was implied time and time again


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## Zef (Oct 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Except in the manga's realm.
> *But I agree that in the fan-fiction realm that would probably be impossible.*
> 
> the rest of your post screams fanboysim and bias.


IKR?
The Itachi wank is off the charts here

Since when could someone with low chakra reserves, and no knowledge push one Sannin let alone two past low difficulty?

Jiraiya with SM is enough IMO. Add Tsunade and it's a stomp.


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## Ghost (Oct 19, 2015)

I didn't know Hussain had an active dupe.


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## Info Broker Izaya Orihara (Oct 19, 2015)

Jad said:


> Yomi Numa being Kisame's bane is further from the truth. Especially when he absorbs Chakara and the technique is made of that. Downplay much?


SHILLEW SAMA!!!

Anyway, Yomi Numa is Kisame's bane because he absorbs Bijuu Cloaks, Raikage Shroud, Fire Ball, things that exude chakra like fire itself, not thick Mud like Yomi Numa. Samehada isn't Preta Path.


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## Itachі (Oct 19, 2015)

Zef said:


> Since when could someone with low chakra reserves, and no knowledge push one Sannin let alone two past low difficulty?



I disagree with the notion that Itachi has low Chakra reserves. He used Genjutsu and Karasu Bunshin multiple times throughout his battle with Sasuke, he spammed the fuck out of Amaterasu, used Tsukuyomi, used a Katon, brought out Susano'o and sealed Orochimaru as well as sealing Amaterasu in his eyes. Not bad considering the massive strain MS techniques cause.


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## Info Broker Izaya Orihara (Oct 19, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Are you really discussing if part 1 kisame would have defeated Jiraiya there? When drops of pee were flowing through his panties ?
> About the match-up. The duo has no way to loose here ( they can loose in an OOC match, or it would be either way ), even though both base Jiraiya and tsunade are being outclassed in feats, having 30 meters between them means they would have time to use whatever jutsu they would want to. Summoning jutsu solves everything because from up there they can  immediately force Itachi to use susanoo, who will eventually run out.


Any form of Kisame, fanfic or not, would lose to Base Jiraiya. Cos while Kisame's attitudes towards the Sannin tier never changed despite his abilities, Jiraiya only went and used SM, propelling his character upwards, closing the gap between him and Oro, another guy who would prepare Sushi out Kisame.

The thing is, Pain acknowledged Jiriaya was stronger than him. Why would even Base Jiraiya lose to Kisame. Kisame has no counter to Yomi Numa. Gamabunta would kill him, especially since Katon: Gama Yuendan was a Katon so big that it even made Gamabunta look tiny. And Gamabunta is the size of a Bijuu. 
Read chapters 170 and 503 if you don't believe me.

Even Tsunade > Kisame.

Sannin were hyped and shown to be above Akatsuki. Yes, Oro lost to Itachi, but that wasn't full power Oro. Not even near full power. A 100% Sannin > A 100% Akatsuki member (by feats, not featless fanfic imaginary characters like Healthy Itachi or Prime Nagato)


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## Info Broker Izaya Orihara (Oct 19, 2015)

Itachі said:


> I disagree with the notion that Itachi has low Chakra reserves. He used Genjutsu and Karasu Bunshin multiple times throughout his battle with Sasuke, he spammed the fuck out of Amaterasu, used Tsukuyomi, used a Katon, brought out Susano'o and sealed Orochimaru as well as sealing Amaterasu in his eyes. Not bad considering the massive strain MS techniques cause.


3 MS techs and he went blind. Susanoo usage killed him. His stamina is so bad he couldn't even jump fast enough to dodge a rigged shuriken or a katon ryuu from Sasuke. Any tannin would troll him. And that includes Orochimaru (who is not needing a new host body, who is not lacking his actual weapon, nin f*cking jutsu, is not sick and on his deathbed, and is not facing someone who has to win for the plot and cos he is kishi fav character). Itachi had very low stamina. Even lower than Kakashi. And thats low. Itachi was outlasted by someone that could use a limit of one orochimaru style kawarimi before exhaustion. Oro himself used 3 and showed no signs of exhaustion. And Jiraiya and Tsunade have similar chair levels to him. Tsunade chakra capacity was compared to bijuu while Itachi chakra capacity can be compared to that of a giraffe)


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## Zef (Oct 19, 2015)

Itachі said:


> I disagree with the notion that Itachi has low Chakra reserves.


His own brother knows he does


Non Edo Itachi having low reserves should be a known fact. 



> He used Genjutsu and Karasu Bunshin multiple times throughout his battle with Sasuke,


Most of those "Bushins" were in the confines of the genjutsu battle between him in Sasuke. I don't think people realize that there's a large portion of that "fight" that wasn't really a fight. Zetsu even commented on them just standing there, and was wondering when the fight would begin.



> he spammed the fuck out of Amaterasu, used Tsukuyomi, used a Katon, brought out Susano'o and sealed Orochimaru as well as sealing Amaterasu in his eyes. Not bad considering the massive strain MS techniques cause.


He did not spam Amaterasu. 
He used it a total of two/four times. One to counter Sasuke's Katon. Another (or the same one) to chase down Sasuke, and hit him. I'm not sure how to quantify the amount of chakra a sealing technique would require so I won't comment on that.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 19, 2015)

It's funny how the Itachi downplayers are worse than the diehard fans now, look what you haters have become. I mean for real. Where is this notion that Itachi had such minuscule chakra reserves? He wasn't in top form, but he was still better off than most characters.

You forgot he's had the MS for years, since he was basically a kid. He's been using it far more than Sasuke had to, in the span of what. months? A year? Before he obtained EMS.

He would absolutely shit on both these sannin, any one of his MS techs can obliterate either of them. I like Jiraiya and Tsunade for that matter, but use some logic. They have nothing that combats his eyes, they are in the same tier in their own right but it's a bad matchup.

They have nothing to combat Itachi's genjutsu, nor the Amaterasu, nor the susanoo. He's also faster, and smarter. You fools are trippin if you think Jiraiya or Tsunade were faster than Sasuke, who an Itachi that was HOLDING BACK managed to fight against.


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## Zef (Oct 19, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> It's funny how the Itachi downplayers are worse than the diehard fans now, look what you haters have become. I mean for real. *Where is this notion that Itachi had such minuscule chakra reserves?*



Itachi was visibly seen sweating after using Amaterasu once on a toads stomach.


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## Itachі (Oct 19, 2015)

Zef said:


> His own brother knows he does
> 
> 
> Non Edo Itachi having low reserves should be a known fact.
> ...



Yeah, but we don't really know which ones were Genjutsu and which ones were real. 

This isn't spamming Amaterasu? MS is very taxing and for him to use Amaterasu like that is quite impressive.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 19, 2015)

Zef said:


> Itachi was visibly seen sweating after using Amaterasu once on a toads stomach.



I am aware, but it's not like the MS is his only means of attacking. He would use it when he needs it, not spam it needlessly.

I am not saying he can use it with no drawbacks, his eyes were really bad off but he's not an idiot.


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## Duhul10 (Oct 19, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> It's funny how the Itachi downplayers are worse than the diehard fans now, look what you haters have become. I mean for real. Where is this notion that Itachi had such minuscule chakra reserves? He wasn't in top form, but he was still better off than most characters.
> 
> You forgot he's had the MS for years, since he was basically a kid. He's been using it far more than Sasuke had to, in the span of what. months? A year? Before he obtained EMS.
> 
> ...




Hope you are talking about base Jiraiya, because even than Itachi won't shit on him, nothing close to that, let alone Base Jiraiya + Tsunade.
SM Jiraiya is faster than CS2 Sasuke too ( a considerable gap imo ), the sm boost exceeds that of the CS, only a blindman would say otherwise. He was constantly blitzing the paths of pain who were not some kind hearted bros on their death bed.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 19, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Hope you are talking about base Jiraiya, because even than Itachi won't shit on him, nothing close to that, let alone Base Jiraiya + Tsunade.
> SM Jiraiya is faster than CS2 Sasuke too ( a considerable gap imo ), the sm boost exceeds that of the CS, only a blindman would say otherwise. He was constantly blitzing the paths of pain who were not some kind hearted bros on their death bed.



SM as a powerup does exceed it. But that doesn't mean as much when in base form Sasuke's speed shits all over his. I would say the shortens the gap overall.


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## Duhul10 (Oct 19, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> SM as a powerup does exceed it. But that doesn't mean as much when in base form Sasuke's speed shits all over his. I would say the shortens the gap overall.



they have the same stat in speed. So the '' sasuke's speed shits all over his '' is fanfic and a moot argument. Jiraiya in base with no intent to harm was fast enough to lay a hand on kn4 when the latter was rampaging. While drugged, he was able to keep up with Orochimaru in speed and react to his attacks.He one shotted konan with her being unable to react. HE dodged  a dash from that huge ass bird. So, as a conclusion- He has feats and adding to them the canopy barrier... . So..No.. Base Hebi sasuke isn't running circles around base Jiraiya, that is funny actually.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 19, 2015)

Oh you're one of those guys who think the same databook stat means something.

I end my debating with you here. And Orochimaru is also slower than Sasuke, deal with it. Konan is...weird. I can't even comment because I have no idea really, and I stay out of shit that I know nothing about. But I was not impressed.

I am not saying Jiraiya is slow, he's just not fast enough for this. Sasuke ran through a gauntlet much more impressive than Jiraiya, and I doubt he's faster than Bee whom Sasuke faired decent against despite getting his ass whooped.

Gaining MS didn't increase his speed, infact his speed didn't increase at all until the war arc.

Lets not forget Sasuke kept up with the Raikage very well. ( Not V2, he had zero chance there, just the susanoo defense.)


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## ARGUS (Oct 19, 2015)

Itachi wins this

 -- Yomi numa gets seen through by the sharingan and either evaded, or broken through by susanoo, or its hardened and thus countered by katon

 -- summons are garbaged by amaterasu 

 -- tsunade is put out of commission by amaterasu given the flames constant burning renders the byakugous regeneration useless until tsunade runs out of chakra 

 -- Jiraiya gets shit stomped by susanoo, and engaging CQC is ending him mind raped by tsukuyomi


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Jiraiya wrecks Kisame though.  Yomi Numa alone hard counters 90% of what makes Kisame scary.





 Pretty sure Kisame has this though.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 19, 2015)

He has that in the strictest sense.


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## Jad (Oct 20, 2015)

Kisame absorbs Yomi Numa i believe. Plus Daikodan absorbs all that Chakara and heads for Jiraiya, making him think twice before using massive chakra techniques.


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## Icegaze (Oct 20, 2015)

Amaterasu on Tsunade won't matter with jiriaya fire scroll
Actually it wouldn't matter against either since the other should be able to get out the scroll and seal it 

As for genjufsu KB are a massive defence against it . 

Jiriaya and Tsunade should take this with a decent level of
Comfort


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## Hexa (Oct 20, 2015)

Jiraiya needs to write out a complex sealing formula in ink and perform a number of handseals to use the fire-sealing scroll.  The databook says the scroll is initially blank, and the complicated formula is probably location-specific.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 20, 2015)

^
Even if he has it already prepped, it is ridiculous to assume that he can bring it out and seal Amaterasu while being burned down to nothing.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 20, 2015)

Icegaze said _the other_ should be able to get out the scroll and seal it.


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 20, 2015)

Jad said:


> Kisame absorbs Yomi Numa i believe. Plus Daikodan absorbs all that Chakara and heads for Jiraiya, making him think twice before using massive chakra techniques.




what am i reading?
at least refer to a precedent or smth, smdh...


NarutoX28 said:


> Pretty sure Kisame has this though.



that would be analogous to countering a suiryu w/ a suijinheki by using the mid-flight suiryu as a water source


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 20, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Icegaze said _the other_ should be able to get out the scroll and seal it.



Assuming Tsuande can perform the sealing, and standing next to Jiraiya when Amaterasu lands, I guess she can pull it off. And vice versa.
Although that would require us to take low end feats of Amaterasu into consideration.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 20, 2015)

Oh and one of the swiftest ninja in the series is just going to stand around while the two sannin prepare some ridiculous scroll.

Right. Let's see, Susanoo, Tsukiyomi, or better yet just another amaterasu, take your pick. Actually he isn't too shabby in cqc either, I would argue Tsunade is too slow and Jiraiya needs SM and even that is unlikely considering he had no issues fighting Naruto and Bee.


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## Rocky (Oct 20, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Oh and one of the swiftest ninja in the series is just going to stand around while the two sannin prepare some ridiculous scroll.



Sasuke: "I prepared this unavoidable jutsu to hit you with. You're going to instantly die."

Itachi: 


*giant lightning storm appears in the sky*

*Zetsu has a detailed conversation with himself regarding the mechanics of Kirin*

*Sasuke climbs the Uchiha tower*

Itachi: 


Sasuke: "I'm going to put this heavenly lightning bolt through your skull."

Itachi: 


*lightning turns into giant fucking dragon*

Itachi: 


*Sasuke uses Kirin*


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## Ghoztly (Oct 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke: "I prepared this unavoidable jutsu to hit you with. You're going to instantly die."
> 
> Itachi:
> 
> ...



I had a good laugh, I admit.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2015)

No knowledge at all results in Itachi attempting to block a chakra punch from Tsunade, or stabbing Tsunade who then immediately retaliates with a chakra strike obliterating him. She's tanked attacks far more lethal than Itachi's kunai or taijutsu strikes and immediately retaliated with a strike. She's come out of light travel kicking. Even if he blitzes her and lands a mortal wound- she still going to swing at him and he'll block because he has no reason not to- and get blown apart. 

This is almost guaranteed because he has no knowledge, therefore he will more likely than not choose to just blitz his opponent and kill them in CQC or he will attempt his normal Genjutsu which won't work because they have knowledge to avoid his eye contact (Tsukuyomi), the finger genjutsu isn't doing shit either, Tsunade & Jiraiya aren't going to sit there and do nothing while he points his finger and attempts Genjutsu, they will attack him and he'll have to defend nullifying the finger genjutsu attempt. 

Yomi Numa is also a problem, with knowledge on Amaterasu & Tsukuyomi this will no doubt be used early in the battle and I don't see how Itachi reacts to it or avoids being sucked into it as it plunged a snake easily 100m tall down into it nigh instantly and it appears below his feet. Susano can't break him out, it's not legged, the swamp will seep into it from below and still grab hold of Itachi. 

Overall the knowledge stipulation decided this scenario pretty quickly. Itachi having none and the two Sanin knowing of Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi means he will die before using Susano.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 20, 2015)

"Itachi will die before using Susano'o" is a stupid argument.
I am pretty sure if he is given the options of dying and using Susano'o, he will choose the second option.



Ghoztly said:


> Oh and one of the swiftest ninja in the series is just going to stand around while the two sannin prepare some ridiculous scroll.



That is also true. Itachi is an extremely mobile and proactive shinobi. Not only he will think faster than these but he will also act faster.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 20, 2015)

I forgot Sakura's tank and counter only failed because JJ Madara had knowledge on byako.


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## Rocky (Oct 20, 2015)

In all seriousness, there is a high chance Itachi leaves a clone in his place to gather information. I think he'd just rush them in taijutsu.


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## Ersa (Oct 20, 2015)

Just in case people don't realize Rocky was joking, that was a dying man trying to throw the fight who let his opponent prep a technique.


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## Rocky (Oct 20, 2015)

I didn't even realize your avatar was Yui.

Anyway...even though I was joking and Kishi obviously did it for drama, Itachi was stupid to let Sasuke activate Kirin. He couldn't have been aware of how powerful it was going to be, so he was basically hoping his flash-activated Susano'o would suffice in keeping his already half-dead body from being killed by this huge lightning dragon.

If Kirin was like 5% stronger, Itachi's dead.


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## tsunadefan (Oct 20, 2015)

the battle could go either way imo. if orochimaru was there they beat itachi high diff. now they may be matched. itachi might have a slight edge due to speed and the fact that his jutsu creates a scenario where one sannin supports another. that gives him an opening to fire off another deadly attack. although, they also have summons. tsunade's in particular is a useful support.


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## Jad (Oct 20, 2015)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> what am i reading?
> at least refer to a precedent or smth, smdh...
> 
> 
> that would be analogous to countering a suiryu w/ a suijinheki by using the mid-flight suiryu as a water source



Excuse me for thinking a move that absorbs chakara from techniques that are made out of chakara to grow stronger, is completely and utterly wrong and misguided.


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## Ersa (Oct 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I didn't even realize your avatar was Yui.
> 
> Anyway...even though I was joking and Kishi obviously did it for drama, Itachi was stupid to let Sasuke activate Kirin. He couldn't have been aware of how powerful it was going to be, so he was basically hoping his flash-activated Susano'o would suffice in keeping his already half-dead body from being killed by this huge lightning dragon.
> 
> If Kirin was like 5% stronger, Itachi's dead.


Was more of a Yukino fan but whatever 

I'm inclined to believe he was aware of the scope of Kirin, not the exact power however.


*Spoiler*: _Evidence_ 









Kirin would've probably fallen under contingency plans. Was it the best plan in the manga to rely on a lower form of Susanoo to protect him? Probably not but it worked so I'd say it was a reasonable choice by Itachi.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 20, 2015)

Doton>suiton 

Kisame without Hachibi chakra or Kisame on the ocean isn't the same as a normal Kisame.

If the shark does eat the swamp, that swamp already ate his lake.  It's also going to be aimed at the ground, and do nothing to Jiraiya himself, whose free to do THINGS.  Those are a few of the reasons why you shouldn't just say A beats B therefore Kisame wins.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Anyway...even though I was joking and Kishi obviously did it for drama, Itachi was stupid to let Sasuke activate Kirin. He couldn't have been aware of how powerful it was going to be, so he was basically hoping his flash-activated Susano'o would suffice in keeping his already half-dead body from being killed by this huge lightning dragon.
> 
> If Kirin was like 5% stronger, Itachi's dead.



Itachi planned everything about that fight, including Sasuke's 5% too weak Kirin for his Susano'o. He no doubt did the weather calculations beforehand. Itachi is love.​


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2015)

Itachi is life.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 21, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Jiraiya wrecks Kisame though.  Yomi Numa alone hard counters 90% of what makes Kisame scary.



 I have a hard time believing Itachi would begin a fight in  straight-up Taijutsu considering he was rather careful against SM Kabuto who he also lacked knowledge on.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 21, 2015)

The greatest thing people are ignoring is the team-work of Jiraiya and Tsunade and their in-character methodologies of fighting. Given Tsunade's propensity to attack without a care in the world due to her ability to heal, I don't see anything short of Totsuka putting her down. More to the point, Tsunade on the onslaught w/Katsuyu already out would mitigate Itachi's genjutsu advantage and allow Jiraiya ample opportunity to enter his Sage Mode. 

At which point, it really comes down to who uses their trump card first, if it's Jiraiya then he wins or if it's Itachi, then he'll get it. Tsunade is more of a nuisance than anything because most Itachi vs. Jiraiya threads boil down to Itachi winning due to Jiraiya not having enough support to either enter SM or properly prepare Gama Rinsho.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 21, 2015)

> "Itachi will die before using Susano'o" is a stupid argument.
> I am pretty sure if he is given the options of dying and using Susano'o, he will choose the second option.


He will not be given the option at all. Chakra strikes obliterate him as he attempts to block them unknowingly, Yomi Numa submerges him without the slightest of hints.

Even with knowledge on Hebi Sasuke, Itachi didn't use Susano until he was confronted by an actual lightning bolt the size of a building. Granted he was trying to exert himself to die and had to get wounded to appear weak enough for Sasuke's victory to be plausible, and he had to extend the battle so Sasuke would lose all of his chakra and thus Orochimaru would appear so Itachi could seal him- he still took the chance of not even using ribcage during most of the fight with knowledge that Sasuke was a powerful shinobi. 

Against two nameless random shinobi he has no knowledge on whatsoever, and by default could be fucking genin level if not shinobi at all (they don't even wear village headbands), I highly doubt he's using it prior to Yomi Numa submerging him or Tsunade managing to land a strike after Itachi blitzes her and severely wounds her. It's not just the fact that his base skill set is elite (speed, technique, weapon skill- and by default should be enough to defeat two random shinobi), it's the fact that using Susano shortens his life span and physically harms him. He has no business using that early in a fight against two random individuals in their vast world that happen to cross his path and he happens to have to kill, with no notion whatsoever that they're even the slightest of threats. 

The chance that Uchiha Itachi would have to use anything other than a shunshin and a kunai to dispatch of two random individuals, in a world that is filled with majority non-combatant non-shinobi, is extremely, and I mean, extremely low. He literally kills 99% of any combination of two individuals in the entire world with the above tactic.

He will go at them with shunshin and weapons, and he will have no reason not to attempt to block a punch from a skinny ass woman that he will not expect once he stabs her with a kunai, and he will have no chance of seeing Yomi Numa appearing underneath him and he will not be able to predict the fact that mud appearing below him means he will be sucked down thus even if he saw it appearing it doesn't directly mean that he will leap to avoid it. By the time he sees it it's already sucking his feet in, so that point irrelevant anyway.

He has no knowledge. No knowledge on Tsunade's grit (surviving initial blitz & wounding from Itachi) and chakra strikes (being thrown right after she is wounded and Itachi thinks she's dead/incapable of fighting any longer, and him choosing to block because he has no reason not to) is a problem. No knowledge on Yomi Numa, which appears nigh instantly underneath the feet of an opponent who is standing on the ground- is a problem. These are not problems he overcomes more times than not.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 21, 2015)

^ I find a hard time believing Itachi's Sharingan can't even detect chakra within Tsunade's fists.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 21, 2015)

Chances are these clowns fight half the battle against a fake Itachi, lmao.


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## Duhul10 (Oct 21, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Chances are these clowns fight half the battle against a fake Itachi, lmao.





That is like saying: '' Chances are this Itachi clown looses to Tsunade hitting him with her finger like he did to Little Nardo ''


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 21, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> That is like saying: '' Chances are this Itachi clown looses to Tsunade hitting him with her finger like he did to Little Nardo ''



 Except Tsunade's only feat of doing that was against a Chuunin-level ninja whereas Itachi's feat has been done against a Sannin level ninja such as Hebi Sasuke or against both Kakashi, P2 Naruto, Sakura, and Chiyo w/ only 30% chakra while both feats had him Sick.

 Itachi's feat of using a clone to do the fighting against a high level ninja is more believable than Tsunade doing so against a high level ninja.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 21, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> That is like saying: '' Chances are this Itachi clown looses to Tsunade hitting him with her finger like he did to Little Nardo ''




Besides the fact that was a kid and Itachi has actual feats against kage level opponents that involves trolling them in such ways with clones and genjutsu.


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## Duhul10 (Oct 21, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Besides the fact that was a kid and Itachi has actual feats against kage level opponents that involves trolling them in such ways with clones and genjutsu.



He has feats.
Against one opponent at a time. Not two, especially not these two experienced ninjas who are not reckless and have a brain that works.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 21, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> He has feats.
> Against one opponent at a time. Not two, especially not these two experienced ninjas who are not reckless and have a brain that works.



Not saying their stupid, but they have no defense against his eyes, therefore they get trolled like anyone else would. Amaterasu alone gets rid of one of them they don't have the speed nor the time nor does regenerating squelch the flames.

No matter how you look at it Itachi solo's.

Why do people put people with no genjutsu defense against Itachi that isn't named Hashirama and Minato I will never know.


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## Hamaru (Oct 21, 2015)

The Uchiha Prince will kill both of them. Tsunade almost doesn't even matter since he can blitz her. The only real threat would be Frong Song.


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## ShadowSoul (Oct 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke: "I prepared this unavoidable jutsu to hit you with. You're going to instantly die."
> 
> Itachi:
> 
> ...



LOL this was funny


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 21, 2015)

Hamaru said:


> The Uchiha Prince will kill both of them. Tsunade almost doesn't even matter since he can blitz her. The only real threat would be Frong Song.


Yeah, the time required for Tsunade/Katsuyu and Bunta to distract Itachi would be enough for Jiraiya to make the Ma/Pa hit that high note. The starting situation really favors the sannin, if you remove Katsuyu and Bunta from the battlefield and just have the match as is w/Tsunade + Jiraiya vs. Itachi, I could see Itachi icing Tsunade and then going on to fight Jiraiya and inevitably win.


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## tsunadefan (Oct 21, 2015)

BTW, can itachi use izanagi?


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 21, 2015)

It was implied that literally anyone with a sharingan can use izanagi, I mean Danzo was able to use it and he isn't even an Uchiha.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 21, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> It was implied that literally anyone with a sharingan can use izanagi, I mean Danzo was able to use it and he isn't even an Uchiha.



 He also had Hashirama's DNA and Obito stated that having Uchiha DNA along with Senju DNA is what enabled him to use Izanagi.

 However, Madara managed to do so, but he's potentially an outlier due to having a far superior Dojutsu and Chakra Quality than everyone else and the fact that he sealed the Izanagi into his right eye to be used at an appropriate time.


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