# KSM Naruto vs Edo Madara



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 23, 2013)

*Conditions:* Naruto starts in KSM and is fused with Fukasaku and Shima; Naruto also has sealing tags.

Madara can use his weapons, ocular powers and Mokuton. 
→Madara can use all base Hashirama's Mokuton jutsu
→Madara can use all the Rinnegan's powers up to the highest levels shown.
→Madara has access to whatever jutsu _you_ believe he taught Obito.

*Restrictions:* summoning and using the Juubi.

*Area and Distance:* here. Naruto is where he is and Madara is where he is. 

Mind set: IC and going for the kill. 


*Spoiler*: _Scenario 2_ 




Same as above, except assume Madara's MS powers are Amaterasu-Kagutsuchi and Tsukuyomi and he can use them up to the highest levels shown.
Also Madara has the ability to sense natural energy i.e. he can foresee the ghost punches.

In this scenario, Naruto has a shrouded EMS Sasuke alongside him *if* you think he needs him.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

Madara wins obviously. Also, Naruto can't even seal him!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 23, 2013)

Elia said:


> Madara wins obviously. Also, Naruto can't even seal him!





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Conditions:* Naruto starts in KSM and is fused with Fukasaku and Shima; *Naruto also has sealing tags*.



 **


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> **



lol 
still, Naruto loses.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

What is that distance, like 10, 15 meters? Increase it or Madara faces Naruto's devastating Body Flicker, only with even more devastating Sage enhancements since Shunshin is a Ninjutsu. I really can't fathom the speed.

Madara ends up blindsided, and I guarantee that Naruto's Bijuu-Sage Rasenshuriken or Mini-Bijuudama will be a tad bit more devastating than Ei's fist.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What is that distance, like 10, 15 meters? Increase it or Madara faces Naruto's devastating Body Flicker, only with even more devastating Sage enhancements since Shunshin is a Ninjutsu. I really can't fathom the speed.
> 
> Madara ends up blindsided, and I guarantee that Naruto's Bijuu-Sage Rasenshuriken or Mini-Bijuudama will be a tad bit more devastating than Ei's fist.



You're comparing a Madara who couldn't see due to mist, to a Madara who will be able to see Naruto... the same Madara who countered Naruto using his speed with his fan. A Madara, who ITT, can use ST.


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## ueharakk (Sep 23, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're comparing a Madara who couldn't see due to mist, to a Madara who will be able to see Naruto... the same Madara who countered Naruto using his speed with his fan. A Madara, who ITT, can use ST.



You mean the same madara who countered naruto in freefall using his fan.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're comparing a Madara who couldn't see due to mist, to a Madara who will be able to see Naruto... the same Madara who countered Naruto using his speed with his fan. A Madara, who ITT, can use ST.



His vision was clouded, not completely blocked. I don't think any of the Kage, except perhaps Mei herself, would function very well in zero visibility Mist. It would be detrimental. I believe that Naruto's speed advantage over Lightened Ei can make up for the absence of the Mist.

Madara was able to raise his fan in time to block the flicker of a clone (i.e. Half power Naruto) of Bijuu Mode Naruto from a greater distance than this. That's not the same as blocking the flicker of the original, now Sage enhanced, from a closer distance.


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## Jagger (Sep 23, 2013)

Madara gets destroyed but only due the distance. Also, even if Madara gets anihilated by KSM Naruto's punch, he can still regenerate and put up a defense to guard himself from another punch coming from Naruto.

After all, Hashirama (even if it was a clone, it still counts) was able to produce a Mokuton jutsu despite more than half of his body was erased by Juubito's Black Jutsu and Madara, whose half of his body was also destroyed, was able to use Perfect Susano'O. Just pointing out that. If he manages to survive Naruto's first punch and avoid getting sealed, he wins against Naruto.

The same goes for scenario 2.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 23, 2013)

Lets say the distance is 50m.



Rocky said:


> His vision was clouded, not completely blocked. I don't think any of the Kage, except perhaps Mei herself, would function very well in zero visibility Mist. It would be detrimental. I believe that Naruto's speed advantage over Lightened Ei can make up for the absence of the Mist.



Clouded enough that he couldn't see A. Naruto's speed didn't do much against Madara; his attack got countered with his fan.



> Madara was able to raise his fan in time to block the flicker of a clone (i.e. Half power Naruto) of Bijuu Mode Naruto from a greater distance than this. That's not the same as blocking the flicker of the original, now Sage enhanced, from a closer distance.



Half power Naruto is something you added; nothing says clones diminished Naruto's BM quality. 

It showed that Naruto's speed doesn't work against certain foes. It is the same reason he couldn't destroy the Gedo Mazo without being hit by the fan. 
There's a reason his speed didn't bail him out when he was going to be stabbed by Madara and Obito (where Kakashi and Gai saved him).


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Clouded enough that he couldn't see A. Naruto's speed didn't do much against Madara; his attack got countered with his fan.



He could see, his vision was just clouded, as Kabuto said. If Madara couldn't see, there would be no reason for Onoki to make Ei faster. Madara wouldn't see him coming regardless. 




> Half power Naruto is something you added; nothing says clones diminished Naruto's BM quality.



Using a clone cuts Chakra in half. Clones are weaker than the Orginals. Remember Madara slaughtering Hashirama's clones while sitting down, or Tsunade punching through Clone Madara, or Wave Sauce solo'ing 10 Zabuza's, or VotE Sauce solo'ing armies of Naruto clones...need I go on?

A blaring example is that Tobirama & Minato agreed Hiraishin would be too slow with clones. I don't see why Shunshin fares differently. 




> There's a reason his speed didn't bail him out when he was going to be stabbed by Madara and Obito (where Kakashi and Gai saved him).



It's because he had just put himself in harms way by saving Kakashi & Gai, after breaking the Dragon with speed.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He could see, his vision was just clouded, as Kabuto said.



Which is why Kabuto felt the need to go there? 



> Using a clone cuts Chakra in half. Clones are weaker than the Orginals. Remember Madara slaughtering Hashirama's clones while sitting down, or Tsunade punching through Clone Madara, or Wave Sauce solo'ing 10 Zabuza's, or VotE Sauce solo'ing armies of Naruto clones...need I go on?
> 
> A blaring example is that Tobirama & Minato agreed Hiraishin would be too slow with clones. I don't see why Shunshin fares differently.



Madara said it was because Hashirama wasn't focusing enough on them.

It was the real Naruto who was smacked with Obito's fan. Sharingan precognition alongside something like Madara's canon counter (the fun), or Shinra Tensei will more than suffice.

Shunshin is a lot more simple than the jutsu you described. Naruto just puts monstrous amounts of chakra on his feet, and moves. The quantity doesn't become less monstrous, unless you can prove Naruto uses more chakra on his Shunshin jutsu insofar that he has a deficit of chakra when he uses clones.



> It's because he had just put himself in harms way by saving Kakashi & Gai, after breaking the Dragon with speed.



So, Naruto himself felt his speed was best to save his comrades, not target the attackers. That doesn't say anything to you?


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Which is why Kabuto felt the need to go there?



Huh.



> Madara said it was because Hashirama wasn't focusing enough on them.



Congrats, you managed to kind of counter like one of the 50 examples in the Manga



> It was the real Naruto who was smacked with Obito's fan.



The clone that was smacked with Uchiha Return popped following the attack.....so no.



> Shunshin is a lot more simple than the jutsu you described. Naruto just puts monstrous amounts of chakra on his feet, and moves.



I know what Shunshin does. I think that if being a clone makes Hiraishin slower, it will make Shunshin slower.



> The quantity doesn't become less monstrous, unless you can prove Naruto uses more chakra on his Shunshin jutsu insofar that he has a deficit of chakra when he uses clones



Doesn't work like that. 50% Naruto has less Chakra to pump into Shunshin. Just like how 30% Itachi can't even use the Mangekyou, despite it requiring far less than 30% of his Chakra.



> So, Naruto himself felt his speed was best to save his comrades, not target the attackers. That doesn't say anything to you?



I think you missed the entire "I won't let you hurt my friends any longer" theme to that Chapter.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The clone that was smacked with Uchiha Return popped following the attack.....so no.



So when Naruto gets hit it doesn't count? 



> I know what Shunshin does. I think that if being a clone makes Hiraishin slower, it will make Shunshin slower.



Only if they're the same jutsu.



> Doesn't work like that. 50% Naruto has less Chakra to pump into Shunshin. Just like how 30% Itachi can't even use the Mangekyou, despite it requiring far less than 30% of his Chakra.



It really depends on how much chakra you think Naruto needs. Going by how he saved Kakashi and Bee, not that much seeing as clones can manage it.



> I think you missed the entire "I won't let you hurt my friends any longer" theme to that Chapter.



I think you missed the idea of if that speed actually works in a fight, he would've used it to take the attackers thereby saving his friends. N*ot stopping the attacks midway, being rendered unable to move and need to be saved.*

The bold shouldn't have been possible if Naruto's speed use was up to the standard you're describing.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So when Naruto gets hit it doesn't count?



Bijuu Mode Naruto has never been hit. I don't count Kabuto impaling Itachi's clone as "a hit", or any other achievement against a clone.



> Only if they're the same jutsu.



It's the same principle. Being a clone makes you weaker, in every single way.  Notice how pretty much all clones are dismantled with no difficulty at all.

The moment Hashirama's clone went to fight Madara, the latter lost excitement. Even Madara knows that clones are child's play.



> It really depends on how much chakra you think Naruto needs. Going by how he saved Kakashi and Bee, not that much seeing as clones can manage it.



His clones have less Chakra than him, so they have less Chakra to pump into Shunshin. They also just have weaker Justu and lower reflexes in genera. Tsunade was smacking around Madara, for example. 



> I think you missed the idea of if that speed actually works in a fight, he would've used it to take the attackers thereby saving his friends. N*ot stopping the attacks midway, being rendered unable to move and need to be saved.*



I don't see where you're trying to go. Besides, those were 50% Narutos.


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## vagnard (Sep 23, 2013)

Bijuudama spam vs Susano sword slash spam. 

A lot of destruction. 

No idea who wins. I see them very close but I imagine at this point Naruto should have surpassed Madara given he is fighting a superior enemy.


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## Ersa (Sep 23, 2013)

I think at the level Madara and BSM Naruto are at, blitzes are honestly out of the question. A verse's top tiers will always have counters to so-called "one-shots" and blitzes. With Rinnegan sensing, Sharingan pre-cognition and his top tier reflexes Madara should be able to at least fend off BSM Naruto's speed although it will definitely put him on the defense.

I honestly see BSM Naruto superior feat-wise at the moment but that will change when Madara uses his MS powers/more Rinnegan powers and maybe Mokuton or possibly SM.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> A verse's top tiers will always have counters to so-called "one-shots" and blitzes.



I never quite understood where this originated. 

Are you familiar with Dragon Ball Z? I assume so. Tell me, how badly did Vegito beat down Buu? Both of them are Top-Tiers of the verse (Manga only).

That's just one example, and I'm sure there are many more. Why can one Top-Tier not blitz another?


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## KyuubiFan (Sep 24, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Conditions:* Naruto starts in KSM and is fused with Fukasaku and Shima; Naruto also has sealing tags.
> 
> Madara can use his weapons, ocular powers and Mokuton.
> →Madara can use all base Hashirama's Mokuton jutsu
> ...



The bolded ensures Madara's victory in my eyes. With Rin'negan paths and especially Banbutsu Sozo he's invincible.

Body flicker? Susano'o or Shinra Tensei counters it. FRS? It gets absorbed. Roar? His Susano'o withstood Tenpen Chi without any damage. Multiple Bijuudamas? Perfect Susano'o laughs at them.

Mokuton is just and addition that seals the deal.


Scenario 2 is still Madara's win, even with Sasuke helping him.


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## blk (Sep 24, 2013)

The notion that Naruto has any realistic chance of winning is either a bad joke or wank; most likely the latter.
The Naruto wank has gone out of control since he fused SM and BM, which people (the wankers for the most part) see as a dramatic power-up even though it added almost nothing in terms of feats.

As for the match itself, a blitz is out of question: Madara can see with his eyes the chakra accumulation that takes place before the Shunshin, so ST or Susano'o (which requires one to only mentally react to the enemy) will be used in time or even in advance, thus nullifying any attempt at such sudden attack.

After that, Madara can make a bunch of bunshins that will ensure a complete coverage thanks to multiple ST, while he will spam Mokuton or finish the match with Perfect Susano'o.

The bottom line is that Madara outlasts Naruto.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 24, 2013)

Mokuton: Kajukai Kourin and Soul Rip


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 24, 2013)

This is what happens when ueharrak takes too long to come solo these threads. Lmao. I then have to come out of my slumber. My oh my.



blk said:


> The notion that Naruto has any realistic chance of winning is either a bad joke or wank; most likely the latter.



Naruto's expression in my sig perfectly fits mine right now as I read this ISH.



> The Naruto wank has gone out of control since he fused SM and BM, which people (the wankers for the most part) see as a dramatic power-up even though it added almost nothing in terms of feats.



blk. Simple question. What does adding Senjutsu to someone's chakra reserves do? It keeps their strength at the same level...is that what you're honestly going to argue? Please show some honestly in your response to my question. Thank you.



> As for the match itself, a blitz is out of question: Madara can see with his eyes the chakra accumulation that takes place before the Shunshin,



Seeing and reacting are two TOTALLY different things. I can see a car coming to me at 100MPH....doesn't mean I'll be dodging it.

I can see a muzzle flash from a .50 Cal from 200m...doesn't mean it won't take my head off 1 second later.



> so ST or Susano'o (which requires one to only mentally react to the enemy) will be used in time or even in advance, thus nullifying any attempt at such sudden attack.



No.



> After that, Madara can make a bunch of bunshins that will ensure a complete coverage thanks to multiple *WEAK AS F!CK* ST



Fixed. Moku-Bunshins are fodder. FACT.



> while he will spam Mokuton or finish the match with Perfect Susano'o


.

Spam? Spam Mokuton? Naruto spams COFRSz in response.

Finish with PS? Naruto retaliates with Lord Kurama.



> The bottom line is that Madara outlasts Naruto.



You are honestly going to argue stamina with THESE two men? Where have you been the past 2 years? Naruto stamina feats would make him seem like an Edo Tensei.



King Itachi said:


> Mokuton: Kajukai Kourin and Soul Rip



Be honest. You guys are laughing your ass off when you make responses like this right? I know I am when I make troll responses like this for Naruto.

But sometimes it worries me that maybe...maybe you motherfuckers be serious.


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## ueharakk (Sep 24, 2013)

blk said:


> The notion that Naruto has any realistic chance of winning is either a bad joke or wank; most likely the latter.
> The Naruto wank has gone out of control since he fused SM and BM, which people (the wankers for the most part) see as a dramatic power-up even though it added almost nothing in terms of feats.


How many feats does BSM Naruto have?  All I can think of is 1 feat, and that's turning *this rasengan* (which is horizontally much larger due to it being in the middle of the page split) into *this rasengan* by simply empowering it with Senjutsu.

That right there tells you how BSM Naruto's jutsu compare to BM Naruto's jutsu: they get at least twice as large (and powerful) due to him adding senjutsu to all of them.

Other than that, he was interrupted before making a super bijuudama so that's not a feat, and then him fighting and almost escaping the god tree was 99% offpaneled, so you have no feats there either.

Finally, there's the powerboost that SM gives its user and all their jutsu which would apply to BM Naruto stacking that mode on top of his own unless we are given evidence to the contrary.



blk said:


> As for the match itself, a blitz is out of question: Madara can see with his eyes the chakra accumulation that takes place before the Shunshin, so ST or Susano'o (which requires one to only mentally react to the enemy) will be used in time or even in advance, thus nullifying any attempt at such sudden attack.


the only thing out of the question is an initial blitz due to that stuff.  In the heat of battle madara might not be able to switch to using the rinnegan's power quick enough, or can be in shinra tensei cooldown, or be distracted by something allowing naruto to blitz.



blk said:


> After that, Madara can make a bunch of bunshins that will ensure a complete coverage thanks to multiple ST, while he will spam Mokuton or finish the match with Perfect Susano'o.


if those bunshins don't want to use susanoo and instead use the rinnegan, naruto sweeps them all with a chakra arm frog kata.

Mokuton is doing jack against naruto with knowledge, everything madara displayed could be dealt with by KCM Naruto, casually gets dealt with by BM Naruto, and gets laughed at by BSM Naruto.

And we all know how PS vs BM Naruto would most likely go down: with PS's strikes getting blocked by juubi-laser tanking tails and PS taking a bijuudama roughly its own size.  Now PS is going up against at least twice the power, a faster, more durable naruto who's able to use frog katas, has super sensing stacked on super sensing and has chakra that will render preta path suicide.


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## blk (Sep 24, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Naruto's expression in my sig perfectly fits mine right now as I read this ISH.



Good to know.



> blk. Simple question. What does adding Senjutsu to someone's chakra reserves do? It keeps their strength at the same level...is that what you're honestly going to argue? Please show some honestly in your response to my question. Thank you.



What senjutsu does in unison with BM is anyone's guess.
Chances are that it powers the BM up by some extent, which is unknown.



> Seeing and reacting are two TOTALLY different things. I can see a car coming to me at 100MPH....doesn't mean I'll be dodging it.
> 
> I can see a muzzle flash from a .50 Cal from 200m...doesn't mean it won't take my head off 1 second later.
> 
> ...



ST or Susano'o require one thought to be activated, Madara doesn't need to do any actual movement.



> Fixed. Moku-Bunshins are fodder. FACT.
> 
> .



What you consider to be fodder is of no importance. 
Everytime that there is the need the clones will use ST and provide an unbreakable defense.

Thanks to their numbers, the clones that will be on cooldown will be covered by the ones that won't.



> Spam? Spam Mokuton? Naruto spams COFRSz in response.
> 
> Finish with PS? Naruto retaliates with Lord Kurama.



That is an inefficient defense against massive amounts of wood coming from below his feet.

Naruto has still to show credible counters to Perfect Susano'o:

- regular Bijuudama are tanked without a scratch (as in canon);

- charged Bijuudama are destroyed (or the charging process is disrupted) before their launch, or intercepted mid-air, by the spam of multiple mountain busting shockwaves.



> You are honestly going to argue stamina with THESE two men? Where have you been the past 2 years? Naruto stamina feats would make him seem like an Edo Tensei.



Naruto lost the BM multiple times during the current (never ending) battle, i don't see how he even comes close to an Edo.





ueharakk said:


> How many feats does BSM Naruto have?  All I can think of is 1 feat, and that's turning *this rasengan* (which is horizontally much larger due to it being in the middle of the page split) into *this rasengan* by simply empowering it with Senjutsu.
> 
> That right there tells you how BSM Naruto's jutsu compare to BM Naruto's jutsu: they get at least twice as large (and powerful) due to him adding senjutsu to all of them.
> 
> ...



That was Minato's chakra plus Naruto's, the same would have likely happened (excluding that Obito would have erased the attack) if the latter added his normal BM chakra.

So, this doesn't tell almost anything about the extent in which Naruto's jutsu will be powered.



> the only thing out of the question is an initial blitz due to that stuff.  In the heat of battle madara might not be able to switch to using the rinnegan's power quick enough, or can be in shinra tensei cooldown, or be distracted by something allowing naruto to blitz.



There are people that suggested the initial blitz, my post was in part towards them.

Do not equate Preta Path with Rinnegan powers in general.



> if those bunshins don't want to use susanoo and instead use the rinnegan, naruto sweeps them all with a chakra arm frog kata.
> 
> Mokuton is doing jack against naruto with knowledge, everything madara displayed could be dealt with by KCM Naruto, casually gets dealt with by BM Naruto, and gets laughed at by BSM Naruto.
> 
> And we all know how PS vs BM Naruto would most likely go down: with PS's strikes getting blocked by juubi-laser tanking tails and PS taking a bijuudama roughly its own size.  Now PS is going up against at least twice the power, a faster, more durable naruto who's able to use frog katas, has super sensing stacked on super sensing and has chakra that will render preta path suicide.



Same as above, do not equate Preta Path with Rinnegan powers in general.

Mokuton can provide terrain control and be an efficient distraction.

Naruto has still to show credible counters to Perfect Susano'o:

- regular Bijuudama are tanked without a scratch (as in canon);

- charged Bijuudama are destroyed (or the charging process is disrupted) before their launch, or intercepted mid-air, by the spam of multiple mountain busting shockwaves.

The bottom line is that ST prevents any attack from hitting.


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## Trojan (Sep 24, 2013)

their rasingan destroyed obito's chakra arms which were enough to destroy the Hokages barrier. 
and adding the SM to it, was enough to damage even obito's black spheres.


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## ueharakk (Sep 24, 2013)

blk said:


> That was Minato's chakra plus Naruto's, the same would have likely happened (excluding that Obito would have erased the attack) if the latter added his normal BM chakra.
> 
> So, this doesn't tell almost anything about the extent in which Naruto's jutsu will be powered.


Naruto didn't add BM Chakra, he empowered the rasengan with senjutsu as the manga explicitly stated such.

It's the same thing that happens when he empowers a *chou oodama rasengan* with senjutsu: it becomes a much larger *Sage Art: Chou oodama rasengan.*  Compare the increase of those two techniques to the increase of Minato's BM rasengan *before* and then* after* naruto adds sennin mode to it and they are exactly the same.

It's exactly the same thing as later in the chapter, he said he would *add sage technique to this bijuudama*.  He's simply turning the jutsu into a senjutsu which massively increases the size and power of it.



blk said:


> Do not equate Preta Path with Rinnegan powers in general.


Nope, burden of proof is on you to show that preta path's conflict with susanoo is only limited to preta path and not the other six paths of pain techniques.




blk said:


> Same as above, do not equate Preta Path with Rinnegan powers in general.
> 
> Mokuton can provide terrain control and be an efficient distraction.


Terrain control?  That means nothing against a guy who can level the entire battlefield with his fodder attacks.  Distraction?  how so?  Madara has to stand in place without susanoo up and hold his hands together in order to grow his mokuton and all of his mokutons are easily dispatched a normal bijuudama.



blk said:


> Naruto has still to show credible counters to Perfect Susano'o:
> 
> - regular Bijuudama are tanked without a scratch (as in canon);
> 
> - charged Bijuudama are destroyed (or the charging process is disrupted) before their launch, or intercepted mid-air, by the spam of multiple mountain busting shockwaves.


PS never tanked a regular bijuudama, it blocked the blast with its swords and survived the radius of the explosion while being leveled up so any damage it would have taken from the hit was repaired offpanel.

Charged bijuudama is not destroyed as you've got no evidence that a PS slash can destroy an attack magnitudes more powerful than itself, and Naruto's going to block PS slashes with his tails.  

Nothing suggests PS can intercept a Super bijuudama with multiple mountain-busting shockwaves, you need to hit a bijuudama with a greater or equivalent force in order to stop it, and PS slashes are at best comparable to normal bijuudamas something that is not even close to the power of a super dama.

Finally, you'd also have to show how many PS slashes PS can get off before the bijuudama hits him.



blk said:


> The bottom line is that ST prevents any attack from hitting.


no it doesn't.  ST can't be used with susanoo and the clones that are in the open get destroyed by a frog kata sweep.  Then there's the argument that ST doesn't work on bijuudamas (since deva opted to banshou tennin instead when facing one at point blank), and the argument that Naruto can just rapidfire fodder attacks like FRS, rasengans and bijuudamas to force ST to be wasted.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Bijuu Mode Naruto has never been hit. I don't count Kabuto impaling Itachi's clone as "a hit", or any other achievement against a clone.



Madara landed several hits on BM Naruto after he hit countered Naruto's attempted blitz.
Again, if at that instance you can prove said clones actually hindered Naruto's blitzing quality, then its really worthless. A monstrous amount of chakra on a Shunshin will still generate the Yellow Flash speed from BM Naruto, as it did when he went to save Bee and Kakashi.


> It's the same principle. Being a clone makes you weaker, in every single way.  Notice how pretty much all clones are dismantled with no difficulty at all.
> 
> The moment Hashirama's clone went to fight Madara, the latter lost excitement. Even Madara knows that clones are child's play.



Or it could be the users' intelligence kicking in to send clones to test the field, seeing as the clones performance do suggest that the originals would've been screwed if they were in that position.

It would help to understand _why_ Madara hated the idea of fighting a clone.



> His clones have less Chakra than him, so they have less Chakra to pump into Shunshin. They also just have weaker Justu and lower reflexes in genera. Tsunade was smacking around Madara, for example.



They may have less chakra to pump, but from the looks of the BM Yellow Flash feat that saved Bee, Gai and Kakashi... they have just enough chakra to pull off a Yellow Flash Shunshin. I don't see the problem here. 

The jutsu aren't necessarily weaker, only in cases where they obviously can't use a jutsu to their full potential. For instance Naruto being unable to use more clones when Kurama wouldn't cooperate. In cases where jutsu like mini-Bijuu Dama, Rasengan, Sage Mode, FRS, KCM, BM and Shunshin operate just as well as they do with the original... there's no real ground to say they're not representative of the original. In fact nothing really says their reflexes get significantly slower; there's a reason Minato and Tobirama were willing to use Hiraishin with Kage Bunshins and why Naruto is willing to use it all the time. 

Naruto's performances seem to disagree with you seeing as he was more than willing to have his clones make clones (the famous "dat clone", for instance) and he was still able to perform as if the real Naruto was doing it.

Madara was setting up an attack, obviously. Plus as Madara said himself, the amount of focus you put on a Moku Bunshin will influence its fighting quality. Whether or not this is a trait that it shares with the Kage Bunshin, that's up to you to choose.



> I don't see where you're trying to go. Besides, those were 50% Narutos.



Naruto with 50% of his chakra capacity, possibly. However apparently 50% is still enough to perform as if he had his full reserves. Except with the benefit of knowing that he's for extra reserves-- but that has *never* been a problem for Naruto under normal circumstances.



KyuubiFan said:


> The bolded ensures Madara's victory in my eyes. With Rin'negan paths and especially Banbutsu Sozo he's invincible.



We have no indication that Banbutsu Sozo is a Rinnegan jutsu. You could argue that it is a Yin-Yang jutsu, but then again you can argue the Yin-Yang jutsu taught to Obito was Izanagi.



> Scenario 2 is still Madara's win, even with Sasuke helping him.



Maybe I should add Kurama Minato to the team.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 24, 2013)

blk said:


> What senjutsu does in unison with BM is anyone's guess.
> Chances are that it powers the BM up by some extent, which is unknown.
> 
> .



SMH. That question was just my way of seeing if I should waste my time debating or not.

Now I know, I shouldn't.


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## ueharakk (Sep 24, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> SMH. That question was just my way of seeing if I should waste my time debating or not.
> 
> Now I know, I shouldn't.



yep that's his usual cop-out:

"you don't know exactly how much stronger X character got from Y powerup, therefore lets pretend he didn't get a powerup"


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## Ersa (Sep 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I never quite understood where this originated.
> 
> Are you familiar with Dragon Ball Z? I assume so. Tell me, how badly did Vegito beat down Buu? Both of them are Top-Tiers of the verse (Manga only).
> 
> That's just one example, and I'm sure there are many more. Why can one Top-Tier not blitz another?


Putting Vegito on the same level as Buuhan is underestimating him imo.

The gap between them warrants tier difference in my opinion.
- Vegito was downright astonished as to how much stronger he was.
- He schooled him with just his legs at one point.
- He had beaten Buu to the point where he couldn't regenerate from Vegito's casual punches.
- And he was holding back severely as noted by the Old Kai.

Potara were considered a divine/godly power thus I think Vegito (manga) stands on his own as a god tier while Super Buu (variants) should be in the same tier as Gohan and Gotenks. Granted he is much stronger.

In FMA:B, Father and Hohenheim were top tiers and neither were capable of one-shotting each other. If you're at the top of a verse you have to be able to handle most if not all of the powers in the said verse. As far as powerlevels in Naruto go, rarely can anyone on the same tier one-shot someone else. 

Minato can't oneshot Itachi.
Tsunade can't oneshot Ei.

OT: Naruto simply can't blitz Madara because the latter is well-equipped to deal with speed, Rinnegan sensing, Sharingan and his various defensive techniques in Perfect Susanoo and Mokuton should allow him to deal with his speed. I'm not saying it won't be an issue but this fight doesn't boil down to Shunshin blitz + TBB. Preta or ST (which he should have) should protect him from those anyway.

I agree BSM Naruto wins based off feats but that's only because Madara has been dicking around for a 100 chapters and hasn't shown his full power. At full power I still believe Madara is just superior unless BSM turns out to be a massive power-up which I just can't judge atm.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 24, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> yep that's his usual cop-out:
> 
> "you don't know exactly how much stronger X character got from Y powerup, therefore lets pretend he didn't get a powerup"



You can say saying "blitz" is a cop-out in-itself. A cop-out which hinges on ignoring Sharingan precognition used on fast foes. Alongside ignoring jutsu which can be mentally activated such as Susanoo and Shinra Tensei.

There are characters who don't necessarily need to move to react to any blitz when they have certain jutsu.


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## ueharakk (Sep 24, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You can say saying "blitz" is a cop-out in-itself.


saying blitz and giving no argument for while ignoring arguments against is a copout.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A cop-out which hinges on ignoring Sharingan precognition used on fast foes.


Sure, no one's arguing that sharingan precog allows one a much easier time in fighting fast foes.  that doesn't mean that ANYONE with sharingan precog can perform those feats or react like that against ANY fast foe.

Unless you want to say absence of evidence is evidence of absence or that PIS does not exist, then you'd have to evaluate madara's reaction feats and compare that to Naruto's speed feats.  That's actually another cop-out: saying "because character didn't use X jutsu, it must mean that X jutsu would be ineffective against said opponent".




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Alongside ignoring jutsu which can be mentally activated such as Susanoo and Shinra Tensei.
> 
> There are characters who don't necessarily need to move to react to any blitz when they have certain jutsu.


No disagreements on this part


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## Lurko (Sep 24, 2013)

I hate these threads, let mads get serious and let bsm naruto show more feats.


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## Jagger (Sep 24, 2013)

I basically agree. Edo Madara has just been playing around or it's nerfed by the plot to stop him from winning the war already. The same goes with Naruto.


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## Lurko (Sep 24, 2013)

About time someone agrees.


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## Rocky (Sep 24, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Putting Vegito on the same level as Buuhan is underestimating him imo.
> 
> The gap between them warrants tier difference in my opinion.
> - Vegito was downright astonished as to how much stronger he was.
> ...



It depends on the personal definition of Top-Tier then. Whis put Beers to sleep with a one chop, and they're both God Tiers in DBZ. You could consider them on different levels, but then where does that stop?



> As far as powerlevels in Naruto go, rarely can anyone on the same tier one-shot someone else.
> Minato can't oneshot Itachi.
> Tsunade can't oneshot Ei.



Yes, but Summit Sasuke can blink and one-shot Killer Bee, who is either the same tier or above him. Pre Jin Minato can one-shot Pre Jin Obito, and they're on the same tier. 

Think about this: The Raikage was a few inches away from punching the heads of roof-tier speedsters like KCM Naruto & Minato. So doesn't this mean that any character with inferior reaction time to those two do indeed get their heads caved in? It has to mean that. 



> OT: Naruto simply can't blitz Madara because the latter is well-equipped to deal with speed, Rinnegan sensing, Sharingan and his various defensive techniques in Perfect Susanoo and Mokuton should allow him to deal with his speed. I'm not saying it won't be an issue but this fight doesn't boil down to Shunshin blitz + TBB. Preta or ST (which he should have) should protect him from those anyway.



Madara has to be able to process that Naruto moved. I see like this: When The Raikage was introduced, Kishi emphasized that his Body Flicker was too great for the Sharingan to follow. Madara faced off against Ei, and managed to barley get his arms up to block an attack, noting the Raikage to be fast. Now, KCM Naruto is faster than Ei, so can Madara react to him? Bijuu Mode Naruto is even faster than that, can Madara still react? I mean, how reflexive can this Madara guy be? Now Sage-Bijuu Mode Naruto is faster than BM Naruto with his Shunshin being Sage enhanced. I just don't see anything mounting a defense to that.

Here's another way to think about it. Even if you give Madara the reflexes of the Yellow Flash, anything faster than Ei kills him from a close distance. This is because Minato himself with an instantaneous defense was nearly blitzed by Ei.....and BSM Naruto is eons faster than Ei. If it was BSM Naruto using the body flicker against Minato in that flashback, Minato would be dead. He had a defense just as fast as Susano'o or ST, but he would've been too reflexively slow to use them.


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## Ersa (Sep 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It depends on the personal definition of Top-Tier then. Whis put Beers to sleep with a one chop, and they're both God Tiers in DBZ. You could consider them on different levels, but then where does that stop?


Idk something like this?

God Tier
Whis

Top Tier
Bils 
SSG Goku
SSJ Vegito

Idk Whis is just so much stronger he should be on another level.


> Yes, but Summit Sasuke can blink and one-shot Killer Bee, who is either the same tier or above him. Pre Jin Minato can one-shot Pre Jin Obito, and they're on the same tier.
> 
> Think about this: The Raikage was a few inches away from punching the heads of roof-tier speedsters like KCM Naruto & Minato. So doesn't this mean that any character with inferior reaction time to those two do indeed get their heads caved in? It has to mean that.


Minato did not one-shot Obito, he wounded him and stole the Kyuubi away which forced Obito to retreat. Would he have won? Definitely. Could Obito have won that fight? Perhaps but not likely. Either way Minato is superior but Obito was not one-shot material to him otherwise he would not have been so concerned.

I'd argue people like Hashirama/Madara have similar reflexes to Naruto/Minato, they lack the speed of the latter but with Sage sensing or Rinnegan sensing + Sharingan they should be able to counter with their respective repertoire. Speed is extremely inconsistent in this manga, one moment Naruto can't escape from the Wood Dragon and is getting his chakra sucked out and the next minute he bursts out of it with his Shunshin due to lolresolve.



> Madara has to be able to process that Naruto moved. I see like this: When The Raikage was introduced, Kishi emphasized that his Body Flicker was too great for the Sharingan to follow. Madara faced off against Ei, and managed to barley get his arms up to block an attack, noting the Raikage to be fast. Now, KCM Naruto is faster than Ei, so can Madara react to him? Bijuu Mode Naruto is even faster than that, can Madara still react? I mean, how reflexive can this Madara guy be? Now Sage-Bijuu Mode Naruto is faster than BM Naruto with his Shunshin being Sage enhanced. I just don't see anything mounting a defense to that.
> 
> Here's another way to think about it. Even if you give Madara the reflexes of the Yellow Flash, anything faster than Ei kills him from a close distance. This is because Minato himself with an instantaneous defense was nearly blitzed by Ei.....and BSM Naruto is eons faster than Ei. If it was BSM Naruto using the body flicker against Minato in that flashback, Minato would be dead. He had a defense just as fast as Susano'o or ST, but he would've been too reflexively slow to use them.


Power-scaling speed like that is always inconsistent imo, if Naruto is so fast even Madara can't keep up with his various sensing abilities and pre-cognition why didn't he blitz Madara to hell and back in their fight before the Juubi came out? Charge up a Super Bijuudama and appear behind him.

I know you'll say PIS/CIS but isn't Naruto's best speed feats due to plot? Apart from instances where the plot requires him to be at this level of speed (BSM > BM > KCM > V2 Ei), his speed imo is nothing too impressive.

From a feats perspective I suppose you could make this argument that Naruto can blitz anyone but realistically do you ever think in a fight between these two, Naruto could simply blitz, slam a Rasengan variant into Madara and walk away unscathed. Nobody but Juubito can do that imo and Naruto is not at that level.


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## Psp123789 (Sep 24, 2013)

Naruto should still be able to win against the powered up Madara. I dunno about scenario 2 because EMS sasuke just got a new ability and BSM naruto is about to finally fight and show some new abilities. I can't say for sure how Sasuke would do against Madara.


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## Rocky (Sep 24, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Minato did not one-shot Obito, he wounded him and stole the Kyuubi away which forced Obito to retreat. Would he have won? Definitely. Could Obito have won that fight? Perhaps but not likely. Either way Minato is superior but Obito was not one-shot material to him otherwise he would not have been so concerned.



That doesn't change the fact that Sasuke can literally blink and defeat Bee with Amaterasu.

Ever since Preteen Itachi defeated one of the oh so legendary Sannin with a stare-down and a knife, I believed one shots were possible in the Manga depending on skill-sets.



> I'd argue people like Hashirama/Madara have similar reflexes to Naruto/Minato, they lack the speed of the latter but with Sage sensing or Rinnegan sensing + Sharingan they should be able to counter with their respective repertoire.



I don't put either on Minato's level because the point of Minato's character is to be faster and more reflexive than everyone. With Sharingan & Sage Mode, Madara & Shodai can close the gap, but Bijuu Mode tips the scale in Minato's favor again.

The same goes for Naruto. Reflexively: Bijuu-Sage Naruto > BM Naruto~Sage Hashirama~Sharingan Madara



> Speed is extremely inconsistent in this manga, one moment Naruto can't escape from the Wood Dragon and is getting his chakra sucked out and the next minute he bursts out of it with his Shunshin due to lolresolve.



Well Naruto tired to fight it first, but that didn't work so he flickered out of there, breaking it in the process. 



> Power-scaling speed like that is always inconsistent imo, if Naruto is so fast even Madara can't keep up with his various sensing abilities and pre-cognition why didn't he blitz Madara to hell and back in their fight before the Juubi came out? Charge up a Super Bijuudama and appear behind him.



Come on man, everything is inconsistent. Why didn't Edo Madara immediately activate Perfect Susano'o and drop 10 meteors?



> I know you'll say PIS/CIS but isn't Naruto's best speed feats due to plot? Apart from instances where the plot requires him to be at this level of speed (BSM > BM > KCM > V2 Ei), his speed imo is nothing too impressive.





It doesn't work like that, because the same can be said for every character. Madara is impressive when plot requires it, and he isn't when it doesn't. It's because of the bad writing. Shrouded Lee can kick Madara in half when the plot requires it.



> From a feats perspective I suppose you could make this argument that Naruto can blitz anyone but realistically do you ever think in a fight between these two, Naruto could simply blitz, slam a Rasengan variant into Madara and walk away unscathed. Nobody but Juubito can do that imo and Naruto is not at that level.



Only from a short distance. If Madara has a chance to throw up Susano'o or a Rinnegan defense, the match-up becomes more balanced. 

Starting so close to a roof-tier speedster is like saying "Hashirama starts a fight staring at a Bloodlusted MS Itachi's eyes. Who wins?".


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## Jagger (Sep 24, 2013)

One shots are possible regardless of the tier you belong to. It all comes down to the speed, reflexes and the skill-set of both characters. The one perfoming the 'blitzing' and the one getting 'blizted'. Though, those are fan-made terms used when a character gets completely outclassed in speed.

Going back to the original point, a top-tier can be one-shotted by another one, that is much of a fact. For example, Hashirama's clone (no, it was the only one that was still active after the other clones dissapeared) was basically destroyed by Juubito and half of the body of Hashirama was destroyed as well. That alone proves that a powerful enough character with enough speed and a very convenient skill-set can defeat another one through this method.

KSM Naruto from a very close distance and an Edo Madara with no defenses up can be blizted as the speed of the Uzumaki is just too much to handle for the Uchiha.


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## blk (Sep 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Naruto didn't add BM Chakra, he empowered the rasengan with senjutsu as the manga explicitly stated such.
> 
> It's the same thing that happens when he empowers a *chou oodama rasengan* with senjutsu: it becomes a much larger *Sage Art: Chou oodama rasengan.*  Compare the increase of those two techniques to the increase of Minato's BM rasengan and they are exactly the same.
> 
> It's exactly the same thing as later in the chapter, he said he would *add sage technique to this bijuudama*.  He's simply turning the jutsu into a senjutsu which massively increases the size and power of it.



I guess that i can agree with this.



> Nope, burden of proof is on you to show that preta path's conflict with susanoo is only limited to preta path and not the other six paths of pain techniques.



The burden of proof is on the one who made the claim.

I made the claim that others Rinnegan jutsu don't interfer with Susano'o, while you claimed that they do.
Therefore, burden of proof is on both of us.

However, it should be the OP to establish whether the Rinnegan except from Preta Path conflicts with Susano'o since he is the one who established that Madara can use all its powers.




> Terrain control?  That means nothing against a guy who can level the entire battlefield with his fodder attacks.  Distraction?  how so?  Madara has to stand in place without susanoo up and hold his hands together in order to grow his mokuton and all of his mokutons are easily dispatched a normal bijuudama.



Terrain control means that Madara can disturb Naruto's charging of a Bijuudama with Mokuton, a distraction in the sense that the former force the latter to use said Bijuudama for destroy the wood.
Every second and chakra that Naruto has to waste for deal with Mokuton makes Madara's position more advantageous.

As for whether he can use Mokuton while moving or not:

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Central panel [1].
> By extension, we can also use Yamato, Obito and Zetsu feats [2 ; 3 ; 4 ; 5]. There are probably more, but this should suffice.









> PS never tanked a regular bijuudama, it blocked the blast with its swords and survived the radius of the explosion while being leveled up so any damage it would have taken from the hit was repaired offpanel.
> 
> Charged bijuudama is not destroyed as you've got no evidence that a PS slash can destroy an attack magnitudes more powerful than itself, and Naruto's going to block PS slashes with his tails.
> 
> ...



The explosion is most damaging part of the Bijuudama, PS was inside it and wasn't damaged in the slightest.
From when a Susano'o that levels up repair itself? Moreover, in the case that what you suggest is true Madara will simply use his weaker PS for tank any Bijuudama and level it up during the explosion.

A charged Bijuudama will be destroyed before that it is even charged in the first place.
As for the rest, provide evidences that Naruto's charged Bijuudama can withstand multiple mountain busting shockwaves; the power of an attack doesn't imply its durability.

Also, Madara might simply cause the Bijuudama to miss the target with the shockwaves, if it can tank them.



> no it doesn't.  ST can't be used with susanoo and the clones that are in the open get destroyed by a frog kata sweep.  Then there's the argument that ST doesn't work on bijuudamas (since deva opted to banshou tennin instead when facing one at point blank), and the argument that Naruto can just rapidfire fodder attacks like FRS, rasengans and bijuudamas to force ST to be wasted.



I guess that since Naruto didn't used a Bijuudama against the Mokuton dragon, it wouldn't work.
Please, do not use blatantly invalid arguments.

A single ST can dispell all these attacks and hit Naruto, then there are other 24 ST users ready to cover the one that used it.


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## ueharakk (Sep 25, 2013)

blk said:


> The burden of proof is on the one who made the claim.
> 
> And you are the one making the claim that it's only limited to preta path and not the other
> 
> ...


sounds good to me.





blk said:


> Terrain control means that Madara can disturb Naruto's charging of a Bijuudama with Mokuton, a distraction in the sense that the former force the latter to use said Bijuudama for destroy the wood.
> Every second and chakra that Naruto has to waste for deal with Mokuton makes Madara's position more advantageous.


Madara's giant mokutons only spring from his feet and has never used it while using susanoo at the same time.   Naruto is a sensor, can charge his bijuudama very quickly, and has ways to deal with mokuton (clones, chakra tails, rasengan) while charging the bijuudama.



blk said:


> As for whether he can use Mokuton while moving or not:


I've already countered all of these points by showing that they are only creating mokuton from their body while moving, nothing like making mass mokutons that you are positing madara does in order to terrain change.





blk said:


> The explosion is most damaging part of the Bijuudama, PS was inside it and wasn't damaged in the slightest.


The CENTER of the explosion is the most damaging part of the bijuudama in otherwords getting hit directly by the dama and letting it explode right on its target like how bee was hit.  PS not only blocked the dama with its swords but wasn't hit directly.



blk said:


> From when a Susano'o that levels up repair itself? Moreover, in the case that what you suggest is true Madara will simply use his weaker PS for tank any Bijuudama and level it up during the explosion.


leveling up is adding to susanoo, it can only be leveled up once the lower stage is complete, so it has to repair all damage before doing so.  Other examples of this would be Sasuke leveling up his ribcage to muscular when confronted by the combination attack of darui and sand siblings.  And Madara won't be able to level his weaker PS up if it gets destroyed by the bijuudama.



blk said:


> *
> A charged Bijuudama will be destroyed before that it is even charged in the first place.*
> As for the rest, provide evidences that Naruto's charged Bijuudama can withstand multiple mountain busting shockwaves; the power of an attack doesn't imply its durability.


Provide evidence or reasoning for the bolded.

For the unbolded evidence is that naruto needed a bijuudama of equal power in order to counter the super bijuudama from the other bijuu.  Evidence is that Bee's bijuudamas only served to push the juubi's bijuudama upward.  Evidence is that no bijuudama that we've seen has been "destroyed" by an attack that is weaker than itself.  Evidence is that a bijuudama is made up of super compressed V2 cloak, the same cloak that has been givin ridiculous durability feats.  Evidence is that madara can stab a normal bijuudama with his PS blade, yet the dama doesn't get destroyed.



blk said:


> Also, Madara might simply cause the Bijuudama to miss the target with the shockwaves, if it can tank them.


How would he do that if the dama is launched directly at him?  The shockwaves would have to flank the dama in order to do so.




blk said:


> I guess that since Naruto didn't used a Bijuudama against the Mokuton dragon, it wouldn't work.
> Please, do not use blatantly invalid arguments.


Please oh please show me how that's a blatantly invalid argument.  We have compelling positive evidence that a bijuudama would work against mokuryu.  Shinra tensei does not dispell all ninjutsu unless you want to assert that deva path simply cancels PS or Mokuton buddah.  So we do have to give reasoning for why it would dispel one technique or not the other. 



blk said:


> A single ST can dispell all these attacks and hit Naruto, then there are other 24 ST users ready to cover the one that used it.


A single ST wouldn't dispell those attacks, you'd need multiple ST, and if it's used on Naruto, naruto just reflects it right back on madara's clones, destroying all of them.  Plus if Naruto doesn't really need to use ninjutsu on these guys if they are just going to use rinnegan powers, he can just frog kata sweep them.


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## Bonly Jr. (Sep 25, 2013)

Naruto takes this with mid diff. Naruto has the speed and devastating power to pull off a win. If he can't get around PS and reach him, then he uses his speed to evade and prepare Gama Rinsho, which Madara has no escape for. Then, sealing tag to da ass and GG.


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## Ersa (Sep 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That doesn't change the fact that Sasuke can literally blink and defeat Bee with Amaterasu.
> 
> Ever since Preteen Itachi defeated one of the oh so legendary Sannin with a stare-down and a knife, I believed one shots were possible in the Manga depending on skill-sets.
> 
> ...


Very well I'll concede here. 

On a purely feats basis you have a good argument, I agree Naruto wins here anyway. Still you and I both know if this fight occured in the manga it would never end in a blitz and Rasengan to the face. Portrayal would dictate in a fight between these two the victor would come out after a lengthy fight and I still think Madara is superior, he hasn't justified the hype he's gotten yet.


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## blk (Sep 26, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> sounds good to me.



Hopefully Munboy will read this soon enough.



> Madara's giant mokutons only spring from his feet and has never used it while using susanoo at the same time.   Naruto is a sensor, can charge his bijuudama very quickly, and has ways to deal with mokuton (clones, chakra tails, rasengan) while charging the bijuudama.
> 
> 
> I've already countered all of these points by showing that they are only creating mokuton from their body while moving, nothing like making mass mokutons that you are positing madara does in order to terrain change.



Yet, he will have to waste precious chakra and time for deal with Mokuton.
Madara, being and edo, doesn't have that problem.

Only two of the links have Obito making Mokuton from his body: in the first you can see Hashirama making Mokuton while jumping (central panel), in the second Yamato's clone uses Mokuton while running and jumping (the mokuton continous to grow even after that he stops the seal) and in the forth Obito makes Mokuton grow from another piece of wood (that he throws to an enemy) while he is running.




> The CENTER of the explosion is the most damaging part of the bijuudama in otherwords getting hit directly by the dama and letting it explode right on its target like how bee was hit.  PS not only blocked the dama with its swords but wasn't hit directly.
> 
> 
> leveling up is adding to susanoo, it can only be leveled up once the lower stage is complete, so it has to repair all damage before doing so.  Other examples of this would be Sasuke leveling up his ribcage to muscular when confronted by the combination attack of darui and sand siblings.  And Madara won't be able to level his weaker PS up if it gets destroyed by the bijuudama.



Madara is in the forehead of the Susano'o, pretty damn near to the center of the explosion [1].
The difference between staying at the precise center and where Madara was seems negligible.
If the fact that the sword blocked the Bijuudama is so significant to you, then Madara can do that even in this battle (if he cannot stop/dodge the Bijuudama in any other way than tanking it with PS).

Why are you assuming that the previous version of Susano'o received damages (significant ones) at all?

As you said, the Susano'o repair itself when leveling up so it won't be destroyed.



> Provide evidence or reasoning for the bolded.
> 
> For the unbolded evidence is that naruto needed a bijuudama of equal power in order to counter the super bijuudama from the other bijuu.  Evidence is that Bee's bijuudamas only served to push the juubi's bijuudama upward.  Evidence is that no bijuudama that we've seen has been "destroyed" by an attack that is weaker than itself.  Evidence is that a bijuudama is made up of super compressed V2 cloak, the same cloak that has been givin ridiculous durability feats.  Evidence is that madara can stab a normal bijuudama with his PS blade, yet the dama doesn't get destroyed.
> 
> ...



Not sure what kind of reasoning you expect, the moment Naruto starts to charge a Bijuudama, Madara can simply hit Naruto's face with mountain busting shockwaves thus interrupting/ruining the charging process (it is something similar to what Bee did to the Juubi).

Ok, i can accept that PS's slashes are not enough if a super Bijuudama is charged.

Also, PS can jump and avoid the Bijuudama.



> Please oh please show me how that's a blatantly invalid argument.  We have compelling positive evidence that a bijuudama would work against mokuryu.  Shinra tensei does not dispell all ninjutsu unless you want to assert that deva path simply cancels PS or Mokuton buddah.  So we do have to give reasoning for why it would dispel one technique or not the other.
> 
> 
> A single ST wouldn't dispell those attacks, you'd need multiple ST, and if it's used on Naruto, naruto just reflects it right back on madara's clones, destroying all of them.  Plus if Naruto doesn't really need to use ninjutsu on these guys if they are just going to use rinnegan powers, he can just frog kata sweep them.



That was an example, the same might be said (using that reasoning) for Naruto's speed.
Since he didn't used his speed offensively against Madara and Obito, it means that it isn't effective.

The point is that didn't happened <> couldn't happen; to say the contrary is a fallacy, and therefore the argument is logically invalid (because the possible reasons for why something didn't happened are countless).

I think that it depends on the power of the ST; considering that very weak ST were able to easily dispel a powerful jutsu like the FRS, one like this [2] should be able to do the same with a Bijuudama and the other weaker attacks.
Or at least, it will cause the attacks to be pushed away.
Lastly, you should consider that there will _25_ clones ready to use ST, Preta Path, etc..., so anyway they'll be able to counter Naruto's offensive.

Another counter to Bijuudama and stuff like that is BT, which can be used on the mouth of the Kurama Avatar or the Bijuudama itself, in order to disrupt the aim/make it miss the target.


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## ueharakk (Sep 26, 2013)

blk said:


> Yet, he will have to waste precious chakra and time for deal with Mokuton.
> Madara, being and edo, doesn't have that problem.


naruto has nigh infinite chakra reserves and I don't see how madara being an edo would stop him from wasting time.



blk said:


> Only two of the links have Obito making Mokuton from his body: in the first you can see Hashirama making Mokuton while jumping (central panel), in the second Yamato's clone uses Mokuton while running and jumping (the mokuton continous to grow even after that he stops the seal) and in the forth Obito makes Mokuton grow from another piece of wood (that he throws to an enemy) while he is running.


obito's one is growing an already created mokuton, after looking again at yamato's one, i'd say that one is legit.

However, do you believe yamato's mokuton would apply to large scale mokutons like flower tree world, mokuryu mokujin etc?





blk said:


> Madara is in the forehead of the Susano'o, pretty damn near to the center of the explosion [1].
> The difference between staying at the precise center and where Madara was seems negligible.
> If the fact that the sword blocked the Bijuudama is so significant to you, then Madara can do that even in this battle (if he cannot stop/dodge the Bijuudama in any other way than tanking it with PS).


He is pretty darn near the center,  but its not a negligible distance.  An explosion in this context is energy radiating out from a single particle.  The further you are from the point, the less of that energy comes into contact to assuming the explosion occurs in a vaccum.  Had bee been the distance PS's body was from the dama, he wouldn't have taken significantly less damage from it as the surface area of the explosion that comes into contact with him would be way less.



blk said:


> Why are you assuming that the previous version of Susano'o received damages (significant ones) at all?


I'm not assuming that, i'm showing that regardless if it was damaged or not, it would have turned out the same way since it was being leveled up.  



blk said:


> As you said, the Susano'o repair itself when leveling up *so it won't be destroyed.*


How does the bolded logically follow from the unbolded?  If susanoo is destroyed by the blast, then there is nothing to level up, or if it takes too much damage from the blast, fails to protect madara and he dies, thus susanoo doesn't get to level up.  




blk said:


> Not sure what kind of reasoning you expect, the moment Naruto starts to charge a Bijuudama, Madara can simply hit Naruto's face with mountain busting shockwaves thus interrupting/ruining the charging process (it is something similar to what Bee did to the Juubi).


Blocks the shockwaves with his tails, we've been over this already.  Bee didn't disrupt the juubi, he merely moved the juubi's dama with his own dama and the only reason he was able to accomplish that was because Obito had the juubi wrap all of its tails around itself including its eyes, thus it couldn't see bee coming.  Naruto is not only the best sensor stacked on the second best sensor, but he's not going to be blinding himself, and he wouldnt be able to anyway since his chakra is translucent.  



blk said:


> Ok, i can accept that PS's slashes are not enough if a super Bijuudama is charged.
> *
> Also, PS can jump and avoid the Bijuudama*.


When has PS been shown to jump let alone with enough speed or distance to avoid a bijuudama the size of itself (actually its more like double the size since it's coming from BSM Naruto)?  

Also if it jumps that high, it'll be open to getting hit by a followup bijuudama.  The best option for it would be to dodge to the side.



blk said:


> That was an example, the same might be said (using that reasoning) for Naruto's speed.
> Since he didn't used his speed offensively against Madara and Obito, it means that it isn't effective.


Speed vs a character is totally different from jutsu vs jutsu.  A jutsu vs jutsu is a direct comparison of both jutsus going head to head while speed vs character is not, you'd have to show how one character actually deals with that speed and how that speed can be used to deal with that character's abilities.  And we also are given reason why Naruto doesn't use his speed offensively against Obito: because he



blk said:


> The point is that didn't happened <> couldn't happen; to say the contrary is a fallacy, and therefore the argument is logically invalid (because the possible reasons for why something didn't happened are countless).


I agree with that, but that's not i'm saying.  I'm saying that an alternative being used instead of that jutsu is at least some kind of positive evidence to the notion that it wouldn't have worked.  But that positive evidence can easily be negated by positive evidence for the alternative argument.  So if deva didn't use shinra tensei, you'd have to give some kind of reasoning as to why that would have worked on a bijuudama.



blk said:


> I think that it depends on the power of the ST; considering that very weak ST were able to easily dispel a powerful jutsu like the FRS, one like this [2] should be able to do the same with a Bijuudama and the other weaker attacks.
> Or at least, it will cause the attacks to be pushed away.
> Lastly, you should consider that there will _25_ clones ready to use ST, Preta Path, etc..., so anyway they'll be able to counter Naruto's offensive.


Well a bijuudama of the same size as FRS is much more durable, so idk about it dispelling a bijuudama, and Naruto can do stuff like chakra roar, punch them with his tails, and use frog katas which they can't even detect which would destroy them especially if they are not using strong shinra tenseis.

Also if they do decide to use nagato level shinra tenseis, then naruto just reflects it back on them destroying them.

Finally, if naruto fires attacks from multiple directions, they wouldn't be able to use the 360 shinra tensei else they'd hit each other.



blk said:


> Another counter to Bijuudama and stuff like that is BT, which can be used on the mouth of the Kurama Avatar or the Bijuudama itself, in order to disrupt the aim/make it miss the target.


I don't think that would work as naruto is a sensor, can simply brace himself on the ground, the BT user would be the center of the target thus even if they somehow did succeed in budging the avatar's mouth it would be aiming right at them.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 26, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> saying blitz and giving no argument for while ignoring arguments against is a copout.



I agree with this.



> Sure, no one's arguing that sharingan precog allows one a much easier time in fighting fast foes.  that doesn't mean that ANYONE with sharingan precog can perform those feats or react like that against ANY fast foe.
> 
> Unless you want to say absence of evidence is evidence of absence or that PIS does not exist, then you'd have to evaluate madara's reaction feats and compare that to Naruto's speed feats.  That's actually another cop-out: saying "because character didn't use X jutsu, it must mean that X jutsu would be ineffective against said opponent".



Of course. However, Madara does have two jutsu which can be mentally activated. That coupled with Sharingan precognition nullifies speed blitz from the start. Sort of like why Kamui goes perfectly with Sharingan precognition, even though Obito is slower than fast foes, he can still predict thus can time Kamui well; works similarly with Madara ITT with Susanoo and ST.

It is also worth noting that Madara has demonstrated sensory capabilities. First when he knew sensing was useless against the alliance, next when he sensed Hashirama, when he conscious of all the Bijuu chakra within Naruto and when he sensed Obito.



> No disagreements on this part







			
				blk said:
			
		

> Do not equate Preta Path with Rinnegan powers in general.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To be honest, looking at the description of the Preta Path's jutsu in the databook (spawns a barrier that absorbs Ninjutsu around the user) and Susanoo's entry (materialises chakra around the user). It is very obvious that the Preta Path would interfere with Susanoo's use; to absorb any Ninjutsu threat, Madara would have to absorb Susanoo too.

Though it probably isn't the case with other offensive jutsu like the Demon Path's powers (and Mokuton) seeing as Madara and Sasuke were able to fire Katon from within Susanoo with no issues at all. 
Shinra Tensei is debatable, but it likely follows this principle. Especially considering that the God Path allows the user to choose their targets.

Now whether or not you want to go down the "Susanoo can use the Preta Path" route, depends on if you think Susanoo's hand seals imply _it_ can case jutsu in place of Madara. 

But remember ITT Madara has other options most haven't considered so far; Naruto too.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 26, 2013)

At this distance, I'd have to go with Naruto. Make the distance a bit longer, and Madara wins.


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