# The Uchiha Clan vs. Konoha



## Rocky (Feb 19, 2013)

Simple question.

Had Itachi not defeated the Clan that day, how much trouble would Fugaku's forces have caused Hiruzen & his village?

Senario 2: Without the aid of Obito & the submission of Fugaku, could Itachi have succeeded in his mission to eradicate the Clan?


----------



## raizen28 (Feb 19, 2013)

Shisui wouldve sided with.....
Which wouldve gave..... A....bettet.....
Hiruzen and Danzo shouldve be still tough.......
But they have Fugaku and Sharingan users.


----------



## αce (Feb 19, 2013)

The Uchiha clan would have messed up the village pretty damn badly. You basically have an entire clan of walking genjutsu users. The village's weaker ninja would be completely overwhelmed.

Konoha probably would have won eventually as they have Itachi, Danzou and Hiruzen. But the village would be in a terrible state.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 19, 2013)

αce said:


> The Uchiha clan would have messed up the village pretty damn badly. You basically have an entire clan of walking genjutsu users. The village's weaker ninja would be completely overwhelmed.
> 
> Konoha probably would have won eventually as they have Itachi, Danzou and Hiruzen. But the village would be in a terrible state.



I must be missing something.

You posted with the Mindset that Konoha has Itachi on their side. Wouldn't Itachi just take the match by himself without much difficulty, like he did in the Manga?


----------



## Seiji (Feb 19, 2013)

Should we consider Shisui alive here or not?

NVM. I don't think Itachi alone would've defeated his clan anyway, I mean, it was in fact stated that he had help from Obito. So it shouldn't be an easy win for Konoha even if they had Itachi on their side.

Just goin' by the Uchiha clan's hype, Hiruzen and the Elders would have worried for nothing if they think these guys can be beaten rather easily.


----------



## crisler (Feb 19, 2013)

Itachi
Shisui
Clan

vs

Hiruzen, anbu
Danzou, root
other clans

I don't think the uchihas can win...unless shisui somehow koto both danzou and hiruzen.

If Itachi had MS, then perhaps there's a higher chance but it's still unlikely


----------



## αce (Feb 19, 2013)

> You posted with the Mindset that Konoha has Itachi on their side.  Wouldn't Itachi just take the match by himself without much difficulty,  like he did in the Manga?



No because it has been confirmed on multiple occasions that Obito helped him. And we now know that his parents didn't even bother resisting. And besides, they wouldn't all be in one place for him to fight. The village is fairly large. The clan would spread out and take control of the village section by section. Or at least, that's the best way to do it.

Itachi can't be everywhere at once. By the time he gets there to clean up they would have caused extraordinary amounts of damage. Hiruzen, Danzou and Itachi are really the only people in the village at the time who had the capacity to do anything. All three can't secure the village.

The clan would have wiped away all of the weaker ninja like they were nothing.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I must be missing something.
> 
> You posted with the Mindset that Konoha has Itachi on their side. Wouldn't Itachi just take the match by himself without much difficulty, like he did in the Manga?



Well Itachi didn't really solo.

Remember Tobi helped him and he attacked most of them in their sleep, in addition to the Uchiha's strongest member Fugaku allowing Itachi to kill him without a fight.

If it's a strait up war, I agree with ace, the village would have been messed up pretty badly.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 19, 2013)

αce said:


> Itachi can't be everywhere at once. By the time he gets there to clean up they would have caused extraordinary amounts of damage. Hiruzen, Danzou and Itachi are really the only people in the village at the time who had the capacity to do anything. All three can't secure the village.



And Jiraiya...and Kakashi, and Gai, and Asuma, and any other named Konoha Shinobi we've met. 

I also don't understand why all of the leaf fodder are _so_ inferior to the Uchiha fodder that they'd be slaughtered in seconds. I'm getting the Genjutsu > All vibe again.

Other points you make are fair.


----------



## αce (Feb 19, 2013)

> And Jiraiya...and Kakashi, and Gai, and Asuma, and any other named Konoha Shinobi we've met.



Jiraiya probably wouldn't have been around. Forgot about Kakashi and Gai. Asuma? Ehh, he'd do good but it's not like he'd be cleaning people up left and right. Genjutsu is still a gigantic problem for him.


> I also don't understand why all of the leaf fodder are so inferior to the Uchiha fodder that they'd be slaughtered in seconds.



Uchiha fodder>Leaf Fodder


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 19, 2013)

Even if the average Uchiha shinobi are > average Leaf shinobi, Konoha was able to contribute a decent percentage of an army of 80,000 shinobi. Nothing really suggests that there was more than 10000 Uchiha, so I'm pretty sure Konoha will have significant numbers advantage.


----------



## Seiji (Feb 19, 2013)

Konoha fodders vs Uchiha fodders. Basically, a bunch of random Konoha ninjas vs a bunch of random ninjas with a name (Uchiha) plus the Sharingan. Well, I'd go with the latter anytime.


----------



## αce (Feb 19, 2013)

I think you're underestimating Uchiha fodder. They do a simple generic genjutsu and normal fodder are out of commission.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 19, 2013)

αce said:


> Jiraiya probably wouldn't have been around. Forgot about Kakashi and Gai. Asuma? Ehh, he'd do good but it's not like he'd be cleaning people up left and right. Genjutsu is still a gigantic problem for him.



Unlike Tsunade he tends to hang around. If he was out on a mission, they would surely send for him. 

We don't really know how proficient the Uchiha Genjutsu users are either.

I also completely overlooked other Clan leaders, such as Hiashi.



> Uchiha fodder>Leaf Fodder



I'm aware. That doesn't mean the clan will run through the Leaf Village's Shinobi without difficulty, especially the other clans and their unique abilities. And also, not all Uchiha are Genjutsu specialists, and Genjutsu isn't an auto-win button.


Just they way you're talking leads me to believe the Leaf will be in a similar state to Post-Pain or Post-Kyuubi.


----------



## Seiji (Feb 19, 2013)

αce said:


> I think you're underestimating Uchiha fodder. They do a simple generic genjutsu and normal fodder are out of commission.



Yeah, talk about three Anbus who got one shotted by Kakashi with just a mere sharingan genjutsu. Albeit it's a sneak attack, should that be the same tactical move used by the Uchihas, well-


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 19, 2013)

αce said:


> I think you're underestimating Uchiha fodder. They do a simple generic genjutsu and normal fodder are out of commission.


And I don't think you understand the numbers disparity. While that Uchiha is casting genjutsu on one set of Konoha shinobi, he's going to get swamped from behind by a bunch of other Konoha shinobi who outnumber him. 

You're also forgetting about Konoha's other clans. The Hyuuga clan alone would be a pain in the ass for the Uchiha to deal with. The Nara clan has their shadow users and their master strategists. Hell, even the Yamanaka clan would be able to give Konoha far superior command, control, and coordination with their telepathic abilities. 

The Uchiha clan is just far too outnumbered here. Although they will do some serious damage, which is why Konoha resorted to the massacre in the first place. But their chance of actually winning is slim.


----------



## Seiji (Feb 19, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> And I don't think you dont understand the numbers disparity. While that Uchiha is casting genjutsu on one set of Konoha shinobi, he's going to get swamped from behind by a bunch of other Konoha shinobi who outnumber him.
> 
> You're also forgetting about Konoha's other clans. The Hyuuga clan alone would be a pain in the ass for the Uchiha to deal with. The Nara clan has their shadow users and their master strategists. Hell, even the Yamanaka clan would be able to give Konoha far superior command and control with their telepathic abilities.
> 
> The Uchiha clan is just far too outnumbered here. Although they will do some serious damage, which is why Konoha resorted to the massacre in the first place. But their chance of actually winning is slim.



The guy's not even claiming that the Uchiha will win. He only argues that the Uchiha should still be able to put up a fight and would cause a serious damage in the village even though they'd ultimately lose- similar to the general consensus.


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 20, 2013)

Nate River said:


> The guy's not even claiming that the Uchiha will win. He only argues that the Uchiha should still be able to put up a fight and would cause a serious damage in the village even though they'd ultimately lose- similar to the general consensus.


Oh okay then. I agree with him then.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 20, 2013)

The Uchiha clan probably also has several mangekyou sharingan fodder. Developing Susanoo is a rarity among MS users according to Obito, but even then the MS fodder would be leagues above any regular fodder.

I don't think the Uchiha clan would of won, but it would of been a Pyrrhic victory for konoha and likewise resulted in the war many thought would have happened.


----------



## PopoTime (Feb 20, 2013)

If we assume Hiruzen knows every jutsu in Konoha, he takes out the entire Uchiha apart from Itachi and Shisui using the infinite darkness genjutsu


----------



## Shinryu (Feb 20, 2013)

Assuming they all had MS Konoha would be fucked since Hiruzen cant do jack shit to Susanoo


----------



## Stermor (Feb 21, 2013)

lol jiriaya alone just goes sage mode and the hole uchiha district is a swamp... how many would survive that ? since pain fell for it and he is kinda significantly better then the hole village.. a katon goemon would also work.. or toad waterbullets/fire bullets.. no jiriaya alone takes out the uchiha clan.. it just depends on who starts first.. if its jiriaya none will survive the first strike.. if the uchiha it might take a while.. 

same deal for gai.. a single afternoon tiger destroys the hole district.. and no one is surviving a suprise at.. 

uchiha's might be better then regular fodder.. but better then 10? 

ps. i'm assuming itachi stays out here


----------



## Pirao (Feb 21, 2013)

ChaosX7 said:


> Assuming they all had MS Konoha would be fucked since Hiruzen cant do jack shit to Susanoo



And why would we assume such a thing?


----------



## Rage of Hate (Feb 21, 2013)

LOL!

The uchiha wasn't stupid and wasn't declaring a open fight with konoha. They had the element of surprise until itachi sold them out. They were waiting for the right opportunity plus konoha was at a weak state. Hiruzen and danzou are fodder by feats in front of itachi and the sannin were not present in konoha.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 21, 2013)

ChaosX7 said:


> Assuming they all had MS Konoha would be fucked since Hiruzen cant do jack shit to Susanoo



Fugaku, the leader of the Uchiha clan didn't even have MS, I don't see why anyone bar shisui and Itachi should have it.


----------



## LB04 (Feb 21, 2013)

If the Uchihas have the element of surprise on their side they can surely cause a lot of damage. However, once the other clans and leaf nin get their act together the Uchihas will be overwhelmed. Like Kimimaro's clan with their attack on, was it the hidden mist village?

If the Uchihas do not have the element of surprise they put up a fight but get destroyed without causing too much damage.


----------



## Stermor (Feb 21, 2013)

uchiha's will never have the complete element of suprise since danzo never trusted and had them under constant root supervision... 

anyway root fodder is superior to uchiha fodder, so they will know when the attack is immenent and hiruzen/danzo will take preactive measures.. as they already did..


----------



## Turrin (Feb 21, 2013)

Uchiha Police Force > Itachi is confirmed in the manga cannon. So Scenario 2 is a no go. In scenario 1 between Itachi, Danzo, Hiruzen, and other Jonin the leaf village would have won, but it would have been with many casualties


----------



## Rocky (Feb 21, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Uchiha Police Force > Itachi is confirmed in the manga cannon. So Scenario 2 is a no go.



Could you link me the scan? I can't recall exactly where in Itachi's story this was said.


----------



## Santoryu (Feb 21, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> The Uchiha clan probably also has several mangekyou sharingan fodder.



No, if they were to use the Mangekyo-Sharingan-they wouldn't be considered "fodder"

Awakening the Mangekyo Sharingan in general is a *rarity* even among the Uchiha clan.

Databook



> The Mangekyou Sharingan, a rarity even throughout the Uchiha's history. The power it hides is frightening, thus so are the side-effects. As the caster keeps on using it, it takes away their eyesight. For those who master this powerful doujutsu, the apprehension of suddenly going blind is unfathomable. There is only one way to avoid the blindness, which is to steal a new Mangekyou Sharingan from a member of the clan... The vile method employed by Madara. The Mangekyou Sharingan; an accursed doujutsu that cannot go without victims.





Nate River said:


> Yeah, talk about three Anbus who got one shotted by Kakashi with just a mere sharingan genjutsu. Albeit it's a sneak attack, should that be the same tactical move used by the Uchihas, well-


You can't really apply that kind of logic to featless average-Uchiha; even in part 1, a far inferior Kakashi was able to see through Itachi's set ups-so well that Itachi stated that the Copy Ninja's skill at using the Sharingan was "remarkable"

we have already seen how a much younger Itachi handles the average Uchiha; it's safe to assume that part 1 kakashi is far more skilled at using his Sharingan than your average Uchiha.



> Uchiha Police Force > Itachi is confirmed in the manga cannon.


when was this confirmed?


----------



## Pirao (Feb 21, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Uchiha Police Force > Itachi is confirmed in the manga cannon.



When did this happen?


----------



## Bonly (Feb 21, 2013)

Scenario 1:
Without knowing the skills of most of the Uchiha's, we can't really tell if they would win or not. But we do know they would put up a fight and take out a decent amount of people.

Scenario 2:
Same as above. Lack of knowledge makes it hard to make the call but we do know Itachi would at least take out a good number of people.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 21, 2013)

Sasuke says something like "Even you couldn't solo the Uchiha Police Force" and Itachi doesn't disagree with him. This leads to the revelation of someone else having helped Itachi. I think that's what Turrin's referring to though correct me if I'm wrong.

The Uchiha have always had mangekyou sharingan users within their ranks.

Tobirama says he's seen the transformation[To Ms] occur many times.[1]

Itachi Uchiha says for _decades_ the clan has committed murders to obtain the MS.[2]

Tobi himself has enough experience with the sharingan to determine the susanoo technique to be a rarity[Among MS users][3].

Itachi, _who knew and planned_ for Sasuke to have MS, called it "incredible" that Sasuke could use Susanoo(Because not every MS user gets Susanoo][4]

Given, I'm not saying the clan is full of MS users. Even if only 5% of the population has Mangekyou though, and the clan has a small population of say 1000 people.

That means Konoha would have to deal with 50 MS user fodder.

Of those MS fodder, a _small_ amount of them would have the ability to use Susanoo.

The manga's just been centric on the main Uchiha characters(itachi sasuke madara shisui), but there have definitely been many Uchiha MS fodder that have come and gone and died.

I'd wager most the MS fodder are no where near as powerful as the prodigious ones that we follow along in the manga. Tobirama Senju looks like he could _and has_ handled any regular MS users without much trouble.

But none the less, those Uchiha MS fodder are going to be leagues above the regular fodder here, especially the ones that can use Susanoo.

I think Konoha _would_ win though because that was what was implied in the story.

As wikipedia says though: 





> A Pyrrhic victory is a victory with such a devastating cost that it carries the implication that another such victory will ultimately lead to defeat.



So Konoha would win, but it would lead to the world war everyone said would of happened has been my understanding of the scenario playing out.

Konoha being pushed that far with generic 3 tomeo sharingan users just doesn't make sense IMO. They have named shinobi and numbers. So I factor in the [non-prodigious] mangekyou sharingan fodder to rationalize how that costly victory would of transpired.


----------



## Turrin (Feb 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Could you link me the scan? I can't recall exactly where in Itachi's story this was said.



いくらアンタでも警務部隊を一人で殺れるハズがない
Sasuke: Skilled as you may be, there's no way you could kill all of the police force alone

Suna no Yoroi


----------



## Rocky (Feb 21, 2013)

Turrin said:


> いくらアンタでも警務部隊を一人で殺れるハズがない
> Sasuke: Skilled as you may be, there's no way you could kill all of the police force alone
> 
> Suna no Yoroi



I see, just wanted to confirm that's what you were speaking of. 

The problem is that Sasuke wasn't aware of Itachi's most powerful ability, Susano'o. If Itachi could use the Jutsu with any kind of proficiency (I'm merely speculating at this point), then I wouldn't  put it past him to take out the entire clan without Obito, providing he had the stamina.


----------



## Seiji (Feb 21, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> You can't really apply that kind of logic to featless average-Uchiha;



Because they are featless?



> even in part 1, a far inferior Kakashi was able to see through Itachi's set ups-so



So?



> well that Itachi stated that the Copy Ninja's skill at using the Sharingan was "remarkable"



He was impressed because a NON Uchiha was able to use the Sharingan with that much skill. That doesn't entirely imply that Itachi also thinks he's superior than all of the Uchihas.



> we have already seen how a much younger Itachi handles the average Uchiha;



You mean, Itachi one paneling three Uchiha police nins? True, but that's a testament of Itachi's high level taijutsu skill instead of showing how fodder the Uchiha is.



> it's safe to assume that part 1 kakashi is far more skilled at using his Sharingan than your average Uchiha.



Uh, I'm not saying that Kakashi is not superior to your average Uchiha though. But I think you're missing my point. The Uchiha clan are famous for their Genjutsu, even if it's just a generic one (Sharingan Genjutsu). That means they can use it and some might actually even be skilled at it for the least. And if they use the same move like Kakashi-> sneaking somewhere, where no one can see you, waiting for the moment the enemy's off guard then giving them surprise attack later.

I don't know why that won't apply to fodder Konoha ninjas. The average Uchihas may not be as powerful as Itachi, but I'm sure they aren't dumb enough to risk using Genjutsu on a situation where their enemies can break it.


----------



## Stermor (Feb 21, 2013)

if ms was even a little bit commen during the days itachi wiped out the clan, kakashi would have known about it.. and he didn't know about tsukiyomi, hell jiriaya didn't know about it. that just does not make sense..

aswell as the idee itachi couldn't wipe out the hole police force on his own.. isn't that he couldn't do it.. just that he couldn't do it without alerting the hole village? atleast thats how i always saw it.. 

anyway if itachi is discounted.. danzo calls in jiriaya and he just sinks the hole uchiha district.. then dozens of anbu kill the possible survivors if any..


----------

