# Edo Itachi vs. Edo Tobirama



## Ersa (Oct 21, 2013)

*Location*: Kabuto's Cave
*Distance*: 20 meters
*Mindset*: IC
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Restrictions*: Koto
- Tobirama has a sealing tag.
- Assume Itachi has basic hype/knowledge of Tobirama (utilizes S/T) and Tobirama is aware Itachi is Sasuke's brother.


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## Trojan (Oct 21, 2013)

It can go either way.
Maybe Tobirama can wins more times than not.However, if Kishi is the one who write this fight, well, guess who's going to win.... -__-


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## BurningVegeta (Oct 21, 2013)

Regardless of who wins, I'd love to see a fight where he is literally raging at Itachi for being a Uchiha. If the fight starts out with Tobirama using Hiraishingiri, regardless of what anybody says he ends the fight in a few seconds. 

Itachi would ultimately need knowledge and Kage Bunshin to avoid that and since he doesn't have that knowledge we can assume Tobirama isn't going to take any risks being up against a Uchiha like Sasuke's brother.


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## ThunderCunt (Oct 21, 2013)

This is more of battle of who would outwit whom first. For someone who has grown up fighting Uchihas there is a distinct advantage that he cannot be taken by surprise or any other uchiha tricks(genjutsu et al) . I am not sure how well Itachi would fare against someone having Hirashin. Susanoo and water techniques may cancel each other given by hype Tobirama is the greatest water user and all. Ameratsu is too slow for Tobirama.


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## BurningVegeta (Oct 21, 2013)

initpidzero said:


> This is more of battle of who would outwit whom first. For someone who has grown up fighting Uchihas there is a distinct advantage that he cannot be taken by surprise or any other uchiha tricks(genjutsu et al) . I am not sure how well Itachi would fare against someone having Hirashin. Susanoo and water techniques may cancel each other given by hype Tobirama is the greatest water user and all. Ameratsu is too slow for Tobirama.


Careful, Tobirama was great in Part I, but inside Part II Kisame still holds the record for being the greatest Suiton user.


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## ThunderCunt (Oct 21, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> Careful, Tobirama was great in Part I, but inside Part II Kisame still holds the record for being the greatest Suiton user.



I am going with the hype. Plus powerscaling between part 1 and 2 is very different.


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## Trojan (Oct 21, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> Careful, Tobirama was great in Part I, but inside Part II Kisame still holds the record for being the greatest Suiton user.



Tobirama in reality has never been called the greatest water jutsus user! That's only fanfiction.


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## BurningVegeta (Oct 21, 2013)

Elia said:


> Tobirama in reality has never been called the greatest water jutsus user! That's only fanfiction.


Is there anyone on his level in terms of Suiton, nope. He was considered unbelievable, by experienced Shinobi - that's enough for me.


initpidzero said:


> I am going with the hype. Plus powerscaling between part 1 and 2 is very different.


Same Manga, same artist and story teller. Go with the hype all you like but they are both considered to be canon to the same source so it matters not what the hype actually think.


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## Baroxio (Oct 21, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> Regardless of who wins, I'd love to see a fight where he is literally raging at Itachi for being a Uchiha. If the fight starts out with Tobirama using Hiraishingiri, regardless of what anybody says he ends the fight in a few seconds.
> 
> Itachi would ultimately need knowledge and Kage Bunshin to avoid that and since he doesn't have that knowledge we can assume Tobirama isn't going to take any risks being up against a Uchiha like Sasuke's brother.


Hirashingiri likely requires that Tobirama lays a seal tag on somebody first. It isn't some end-all be-all jutsu that he can just start with.

And Edo Itachi can spam Susano all day with unlimited Chakara, spam Amaterasu everywhere with unlimited chakra, and spam clones all the time with unlimited chakra.

Literally all of his weaknesses are covered via unlimited chakra. Tobirama simply isn't getting through Infinite Susano before Itachi can hit him with any of his various OHKOs, leaving him open to Itachi's vastly superior sealing method.


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## Trojan (Oct 21, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> Is there anyone on his level in terms of Suiton, nope. He was considered unbelievable, by experienced Shinobi - that's enough for me.



Actually yes. 
both Kisame and Mei by feats >>> Tobirama. (in term of water jutsus of course)
even Darui's jutsu was greater than what Tobirama used.


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## BurningVegeta (Oct 21, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Hirashingiri likely requires that Tobirama lays a seal tag on somebody first. It isn't some end-all be-all jutsu that he can just start with.


I'd say to counter that stupid task of tagging someone, Tobirama seal is on the floor - making the entire battlefield his area ready for Hiraishingiri and Hiraishin. I only say this because if Tobirama has to tag you first, he'll tag you with some explosions first and if one tag happens that is game over for his opponent.



> And Edo Itachi can spam Susano all day with unlimited Chakara, spam Amaterasu everywhere with unlimited chakra, and spam clones all the time with unlimited chakra.


I don't remember Itachi spamming Susanoo ...I don't recall him spamming clones either. If this is Itachi Uchiha you talking about, you'll need to talk about him as a character; if not this isn't the calm and collected Itachi we know of is it (regardless of the OP's details)?



> Literally all of his weaknesses are covered via unlimited chakra. Tobirama simply isn't getting through Infinite Susano before Itachi can hit him with any of his various OHKOs, leaving him open to Itachi's vastly superior sealing method.


There's no such thing as Infinite Susanoo - although he could Itachi didn't leave Susanoo activated 100% of his time when he was an Edo Tensei, so don't try and create that now. I'm not arguing Itachi not being able to seal Tobirama, I have an issue of him being solo'd before he has a chance to react.


Elia said:


> Actually yes.
> both Kisame and Mei by feats >>> Tobirama. (in term of water jutsus of course)
> even Darui's jutsu was greater than what Tobirama used.


Sorry I should have clarified at the time, there was not another notable Suiton user. Strictly talking about Part I here.


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## crisler (Oct 21, 2013)

i go with itachi but i won't be surprised if tobirama wins

just remembered something. izuna and madara were said to e equals...how did tobirama kill izuna but hashirama not madara? hashirama was stronger than tobirama...he should've beaten madara pretty easily before he got the EMS. or were the brothers being equal only until the third tomoe stage, and not MS?


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## Baroxio (Oct 21, 2013)

Right, and I've never seen Tobirama tag the floor. Do you really want to play that game?

Of course, tagging the earth and transporting himself to anywhere on the earth clearly isn't how Hirashin works, so I'm not even going to continue that point.

Only this: Susano's known limits are:

1.) Chakra
2.) Health of the user.

Edo Tensei removes both of those limits, i.e. Susano is unlimited.

And I never said Tobirama would solo'd "before he has a chance to react."

I only stated that Tobirama wouldn't get through Susano before Itachi could open him up with his OHKO techniques.


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## BurningVegeta (Oct 21, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Right, and I've never seen Tobirama tag the floor. Do you really want to play that game?
> 
> Of course, tagging the earth and transporting himself to anywhere on the earth clearly isn't how Hirashin works, so I'm not even going to continue that point.


Pardon, Hirashin only works on people... I've never heard that before.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 21, 2013)

Tobirama hasn't shown anything capable of breaking through Susanoo, and since Itachi is an Edo, he can use Susanoo indefinitely.

So Edo Itachi wins.


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## Baroxio (Oct 21, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> Pardon, Hirashin only works on people... I've never heard that before.


It sounds like you are arguing that Tobirama could tag the ground on New York and Teleport to California.

Is that what you are attempting to defend as more credible than an Immortal, painless, infinite chakra Itachi spamming Susano, the technique limited by pain and chakra?

Really?


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## BurningVegeta (Oct 21, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> It sounds like you are arguing that Tobirama could tag the ground on New York and Teleport to California.


Wow, how can you get that from my post. I said something like tagging the entire battlefield, so he has tagged something like 50cm by 50cm on the battlefield, on the trees, on the ground etc. One tag is not going to allow him to travel any further than the tag with Hiraishin. I said actually said:


BurningVegeta said:


> *I'd say to counter that stupid task of tagging someone, Tobirama seal is on the floor - making the entire battlefield his area ready for Hiraishingiri and Hiraishin.* I only say this because if Tobirama has to tag you first, he'll tag you with some explosions first and if one tag happens that is game over for his opponent.





> Is that what you are attempting to defend as more credible than an Immortal, painless, infinite chakra Itachi spamming Susano, the technique limited by pain and chakra?
> 
> Really?


No it isn't because it is retarded, how one tag can allow him to swarm the entire battlefield with one tag. I'll have to be more specific from now on.


I Am Wrong said:


> Tobirama hasn't shown anything capable of breaking through Susanoo, and since Itachi is an Edo, he can use Susanoo indefinitely.
> 
> So Edo Itachi wins.


So me where he has done this even once and you'll be 100% right but until then the amount of how right you are is 0%. Itachi has not and will not spam Susanoo.


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## Baroxio (Oct 21, 2013)

> Tobirama seal is on the floor - making the entire battlefield his area ready for Hiraishingiri and Hiraishin.



How does this confer a plurality of seal tags? 

You literally just stated that there is only one *seal* allowing him to traverse the entire battlefield, otherwise you would have said *seals*.

Don't blame me for your grammar mistake. 

But now that such an argument is out of the way, Tobirama isn't going to be able to get a tag anywhere near Itachi, especially because he can literally just camp in Susano and spam Amaterasu if Tobirama gets close. And if Itachi covers the place in Amaterasu like he did on his deathbed vs. Sasuke, Hirashin isn't going to do jack.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 21, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> So me where he has done this even once and you'll be 100% right but until then the amount of how right you are is 0%. Itachi has not and will not spam Susanoo.



I never said _spam_, I said he can use it indefinitely, which basically means he has the ability to use it to keep Tobirama away, and then counter attack accordingly, and Tobirama undeniably can't get through Susanoo's defense with what he's shown.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 21, 2013)

Elia said:


> It van go either way.
> Maybe Tobirama can wins more times than not.However, if Kishi is the one who write this fight, well, guess who's going to win.... -__-



Boom, this. They're at a comparable level, but y'all know who Kishimoto would have edge it out. (It almost rhymes with latch-key?)


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 21, 2013)

Ironically, I doubt he'd let the brother of Hashirama, a previous kage and a Senju elder die to Itachi, especially the way he's been showing him against Jubito. 

He's actually more important, but that doesn't matter here. It's all matchups in this manga.

Itachi should actually win mainly because he can blast Amaterasu all day charring the landscape and any possible tags that have been placed there. As long as he remains in Susano Tobirama doesn't have the firepower to get through.

If a clone should tag his Susano, he may be able to warp Itachi out as he is touching Itachi's chkara, thus he's touching Itachi, but I doubt that happens if Itachi continues to blast the field in Amaterasu and can cover his blindsides with bunshins.

Tobirama's best chance begins early on, as Itachi struggles to emit a V3 Susano immediately even while Edo. When he does get to V3, Tobirama stands no chance in defeating him with Yata Mirror, the extension of his Totsuka and his Amaterasu fire.

This, all irrelevant to the fact that Itachi has no knowledge Tobirama can use FTG- thus he's tagged and pulled out of Susano.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 21, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> This, all irrelevant to the fact that Itachi has no knowledge Tobirama can use FTG- thus he's tagged and pulled out of Susano.



Tobirama has no knowledge of Tsukuyomi, and already showed a willingness to looks at Sasuke's Mangekyō prior to physical confrontation. That's Itachi's ultimate calling card.​


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Tobirama has no knowledge of Tsukuyomi, and already showed a willingness to looks at Sasuke's Mangekyō prior to a fight.​


Lol he fought and killed an MS user.

Please tell me you're joking.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 21, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Lol he fought and killed an MS user.
> 
> Please tell me you're joking.



Oops, I forgot all Mangekyō users are the same. 

Conversely, if Kumo fodder knew about Hiraishin tags, then Itachi, who was an ANBU captain privileged to know Konoha secrets, would almost certainly recognize the seal as well.​


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Herpa lerpa derpa, I forgot all MS users are the same.


He's fighting to stop someone from using an infinite tsukuyomi, he knows this.  

He was born in the middle of a clan blood war against the Uchiha, he knows more about them then Sasuke did. 

He killed an MS user canonically.

He was the Kage of a village in which Uchiha were shinobi, and under his direct order. 

How the fuck does he not have knowledge that Uchiha can use ocular genjutsu, and thus not avoid it?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 21, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> How the fuck does he not have knowledge that Uchiha can use ocular genjutsu, and thus not avoid it?



He knows this, just like Orochimaru knew it, but they both look because they think they can break such genjutsu when they most likely cannot, as Itachi is an exceptional genjutsu user.

Tobirama canonically looked at an Uchiha Mangekyō before actual fighting took place. That's all Itachi needs. He'll talk to Tobirama, and then boom, genjutsu suckerpunch.​


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## Dr. White (Oct 21, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> > He's fighting to stop someone from using an infinite tsukuyomi, he knows this.
> 
> 
> Both are applied completely differently. He may know about Tsuku but knowledge doesn't always mean you can avoid it. See Naruto vs Edo Nagato.
> ...


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Tobirama has no knowledge of Tsukuyomi, and already showed a willingness to looks at Sasuke's Mangekyō prior to physical confrontation. That's Itachi's ultimate calling card.​




Except, no harm would've come had Sasuke cast an illusion there. Tobirama had elite back-up. It was also a non-combat situation, similar to how Gaara stared at Madara's eyes when he appeared yet avoided his Genjutsu throughout their fight.


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## Dr. White (Oct 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Except, no harm would've come had Sasuke cast an illusion there. Tobirama had elite back-up. It was also a non-combat situation, similar to how Gaara stared at Madara's eyes when he appeared yet avoided his Genjutsu throughout their fight.



Proof Madara attempted to use genjutsu on him? We know he was shown trying once on Ei and he succeeded. Using genjutsu to solo would have been counter intuitive as he was trying to destroy the kages morale and toy with them. Ei was the only one he had a reason for as his speed was a problem.


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## Garcher (Oct 21, 2013)

there's no way Tobirama can beat Itachi


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## The World (Oct 21, 2013)

There's no way Itachi can beat Tobirama


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## The World (Oct 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> *Tobirama has no knowledge of Tsukuyomi*, and already showed a willingness to looks at Sasuke's Mangekyō prior to physical confrontation. That's Itachi's ultimate calling card.​



lol wut

He fought both Madara and Izuna for years


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

Madara had caught Ei off guard, and took advantage of the moment. Sasuke needed a distraction from Juugo to catch C in an illusion, for example. The Raikage example works as well, as Madara needed to restrain and force an illusion upon him.

It should be expected that Tobirama has ways of dealing with _ocular_ Genjutsu by stepping back and looking at his character. He is a man that _grew up_ fighting the Sharingan. He knows the ins & outs of combat against Uchiha, not unlike his brother. I'm sure that if this was Hashirama, nobody wouldn't be arguing "Genjutsu GG," despite Hashirama packing no constant anti-Genjutsu ability.

There are other strong arguments for Itachi. The Genjutsu GG one is weak when discussing the Senju brothers.


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## Garcher (Oct 21, 2013)

The World said:


> There's no way Itachi can beat Tobirama



No


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## Dr. White (Oct 21, 2013)

The World said:


> lol wut
> 
> He fought both Madara and Izuna for years



Cause we have seen Madara let alone Izuma use ama or Tsuku right?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 21, 2013)

It does not matter who you are, if you have a sharingan Tobirama will own you with words, if TOAA had Sharingan than Tobirama > TOAA .


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## The World (Oct 21, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Cause we have seen Madara let alone Izuma use ama or Tsuku right?



Madara has Susano-O 

In order to unlock it you need both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu


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## Dr. White (Oct 21, 2013)

The World said:


> Madara has Susano-O
> 
> In order to unlock it you need both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu



We don't know this, I'm pretty sure VIZ scans have never confirmed this.
Sasuke does not know how to use, Tsukuyomi(complete Tsuku involves Time manipulation) and by that logic shouldn't be able to complete Susano. 

Madara hasn't shown use of either, which would have greatly helped in a fight vs the strongest man in the world: Hashirama.


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> We don't know this, I'm pretty sure VIZ scans have never confirmed this.
> Sasuke does not know how to use, Tsukuyomi(complete Tsuku involves Time manipulation) and by that logic shouldn't be able to complete Susano.
> 
> Madara hasn't shown use of either, which would have greatly helped in a fight vs the strongest man in the world: Hashirama.






			
				Databook said:
			
		

> There are two doujutsu the use of which is allowed exclusively to those who have awakened to the clairvoyant eyes of Heaven, the Mangekyou Sharingan: Amaterasu, which speaks of Light and the material world, and Tsukuyomi, symbolizing the spiritual world and Darkness**. Only in them who hold both of those, dwells the power of the wild, rampaging god... Susanoo.




This is straight from the Databook, aka Kishomoto's own words. What he says has some merit, though one may call it a "retcon" if you argue Sasuke doesn't possess Tsukuyomi. 

Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi wouldn't help much Hashirama, and why even use them when you have a giant mountain-cutting Susano'o and the Nine Tailed Fox.


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## Dr. White (Oct 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> This is straight from the Databook, aka Kishomoto's own words. What he says has some merit, though one may call it a "retcon" if you argue Sasuke doesn't possess Tsukuyomi.
> 
> Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi wouldn't help much Hashirama, and why even use them when you have a giant mountain-cutting Susano'o and the Nine Tailed Fox.



Tsukuyomi can only be countered by MS possessing Uchiha's with equal or better genjutsu skill per the databook, how would that not have helped? Ama is a solid counter to Byakugou, and Mokuton. Kyuubi was the perfect distraction for landing one of these OHKO's.


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Tsukuyomi can only be countered by MS possessing Uchiha's with equal or better genjutsu skill per the databook, how would that not have helped? Ama is a solid counter to Byakugou, and Mokuton. Kyuubi was the perfect distraction for landing one of these OHKO's.




You make it sound as if Sasuke or Itachi would have a chance against Hashirama.

Tsukuyomi cannot be _broken_ by people who do not fit the description you gave, but not getting trapped in the first place just avoids that hassle. Amaterasu doesn't have the feats to burn through Hashirama's more powerful Mokuton and would end up turning Hashirama Mokuton creatures in flaming Mokuton creatures....which just makes Madara's situation worse.


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## Dr. White (Oct 21, 2013)

lol when did I imply that? Without PS to fight Hashi's mass landaltering moves, pretty much no one does, but that isn't to say Tsuku and Ama wouldn't have upped his chances... Yeah once it again it's cool and all to avoid such, but having a OHKO is always lethal. Especially when Base Hashi doesn't have sensing feats, and looked at Madara mutiple times. It would have been especially helpful after Kyuubi/Shinsu nullified eachother.

IDK if wood constructs can move while being burned and my major point was its countering of Byakugou.


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## Garcher (Oct 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You make it sound as if Sasuke or Itachi would have a chance against Hashirama.
> 
> Tsukuyomi cannot be _broken_ by people who do not fit the description you gave, but not getting trapped in the first place just avoids that hassle. Amaterasu doesn't have the feats to burn through Hashirama's more powerful Mokuton and would end up turning Hashirama Mokuton creatures in flaming Mokuton creatures....which just makes Madara's situation worse.



Itachi can pierce any of Hashi's mokutons with totsuka and block them with yata mirror. If you lock at the fact Hashirama is an idiot like Naruto, Itachi could troll and beat him.

Since when got this Hashirama vs Itachi? It's Itachi vs Tobirama, and this is definitly Itachi's win.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 21, 2013)

Just asking, what is Tobirama going to do to Itachi ? Fire off a suiton ?

Itachi genjutsu GG's this.
If not, he amaterasu GG's this.
If not, he totsuka GG's this.
Tobirama is outclassed here.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> There are other strong arguments for Itachi. The Genjutsu GG one is weak when discussing the Senju brothers.



Yet not as weak as using Sasuke (or an outnumbered Madara) as premises for what Itachi can and can't do with his genjutsu. ​


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Especially when Base Hashi doesn't have sensing feats, and looked at Madara mutiple times. It would have been especially helpful after Kyuubi/Shinsu nullified eachother.



Madara still possess ocular Genjutsu, so that was probably used in his plethora of battles against Hashirama. 



> IDK if wood constructs can move while being burned and my major point was its countering of Byakugou.




Why wouldn't they be able to move? Are you suggesting they feel pain from the fire?

I don't believe Amaterasu by itself is potent enough to shut down some of Hashirama's stringer Mokuton, and we've been given no reason to believe it really.



Strategoob said:


> Yet not as weak as using Sasuke (or an outnumbered Madara) as premises for what Itachi can and can't do with his genjutsu. ​




_Catching_ a man in ocular Genjutsu does not differ between Uchiha.

Also, it was the Gokage who were outnumbered. 5 to 1, actually.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> _Catching_ a man in ocular Genjutsu does not differ between Uchiha.



Genjutsu casting adroitness makes for an easier time catching people because it can be cast in a smaller window of time. So whereas some Uchiha may need longer periods of eye contact to cast genjutsu, those that specialize in genjutsu would need less. Not unlike how those skilled in ninjutsu need less time to cast ninjutsu, those skilled in taijutsu need less time to kick ass, etc.​


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

At this point, there probably isn't much a disparity between Madara, Sasuke, or Itachi in ocular illusion skill. Sasuke was able to put Bee in a Genjutsu just as fast as Itachi was...


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## Sadgoob (Oct 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> At this point, there probably isn't much a disparity between Madara, Sasuke, or Itachi in ocular illusion skill. Sasuke was able to put Bee in a Genjutsu just as fast as Itachi was...



Danzō, Ao, Nagato, Shikaku, etc. thought differently. Itachi's da' best.


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## pato454 (Oct 21, 2013)

*Tobirama > Itachi

Edo Itachi > Edo Tobirama*

Edo Itachi can spam Amaterasu and Susanoo the whole fight


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Danzō, Ao, Nagato, Shikaku, etc. thought differently. Itachi's da' best.




All of them either have limited knowledge on Madara or weren't even talking about Madara. I also meant EMS Sasuke, not Mangekyou Sauce.

That said, were they all speaking of Itachi ocular Genjutsu?


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## Rasengan with gatorade (Oct 21, 2013)

I think they are pretty much equal, if a fight were to occur actually, that'd be pretty awesome, susano'o , water. anyways its going to be a really good fight.


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## Dr. White (Oct 21, 2013)

It cannot really be contested that Itachi by feats and portrayal isn't the best genjutsu user in this manga. Even is base sharingan genjutsu put Bee out for longer than Sasuke's MS jutsu put Bee out for. Sasuke caught him in a mind trap, Itachi warped Bee's perception of the world, and temporarily cut him off from Hachibi. His base sharingan is qualitatively better than Sasuke's MS.


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## Dominus (Oct 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Just asking, what is Tobirama going to do to Itachi ? Fire off a suiton ?
> 
> Itachi genjutsu GG's this.
> If not, he amaterasu GG's this.
> ...



All of that can be avoided with Hiraishin, plus Tobirama is a sensor.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 23, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> All of that can be avoided with Hiraishin, plus Tobirama is a sensor.



Tobirama's hirashin lacks mobility, he can't distribute tags as effectively and as quickly as minato. And he seems to be slower than Minato overall.

Just being a better tactitian doesn't make up for that. 


So Itachi'll have easy time anticipating and countering his teleportation path.


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## Dominus (Oct 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tobirama's hirashin lacks mobility, he can't distribute tags as effectively and as quickly as minato. And he seems to be slower than Minato overall.
> 
> Just being a better tactitian doesn't make up for that.
> 
> ...



The surroundings isn't the only thing he can mark, he can mark his clones who can also use Hiraishin.


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## Ƶero (Oct 23, 2013)

I want to say Tobirama but lets be honest, Itachi wouldn't die to 20 cloud fodders.


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## Dominus (Oct 23, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> I want to say Tobirama but lets be honest, Itachi wouldn't die to 20 cloud fodders.



You know this how exactly?


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## Kai (Oct 23, 2013)

Zero said:
			
		

> I want to say Tobirama but lets be honest, Itachi wouldn't die to 20 cloud fodders.


Probably have said this hundreds of times over the years, and that is being weak doesn't immediately make one fodder. Being irrelevant does.

Tobirama died against 20 irrelevant, but highly powerful fodder.

On the match, it can go either way, 50/50. Against Tobirama's intelligence and tactics, it's impossible for Itachi's stamina not to be of concern, but Itachi's precision and skill is greater than Tobirama's. This is a fight I'd definitely want to see play out in the manga.


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## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Oct 23, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> Itachi can pierce any of Hashi's mokutons with totsuka and block them with yata mirror. If you lock at the fact Hashirama is an idiot like Naruto, Itachi could troll and beat him.
> 
> Since when got this Hashirama vs Itachi? It's Itachi vs Tobirama, and this is definitly Itachi's win.


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## Azula (Oct 23, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> The surroundings isn't the only thing he can mark, he can mark his clones who can also use Hiraishin.



thats too much of a hassle, making clones by using a hand seal and then marking them, he only has two hands so he can only mark two of them at once
then he has to move to mark others if he created more clones, its wishful thinking that he can achieve all this in time and itachi wont take advantage of it

clones divide your chakra, get destroyed easily and go poof after some time
and that isnt even a good strategy, say tobirama teleports to the clone to avoid an attack of itachi and itachi attacks again now they dont have anywhere to run since both the clone and tobirama are side by side


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## Dominus (Oct 23, 2013)

-Azula- said:


> thats too much of a hassle, making clones by using a hand seal and then marking them, he only has two hands so he can only mark two of them at once
> then he has to move to mark others if he created more clones, its wishful thinking that he can achieve all this in time and itachi wont take advantage of it



I'm pretty sure that Itachi won't use his strongest attacks at the beginning of the battle and Tobirama wouldn't need more than a couple of seconds to do that.



> clones divide your chakra, get destroyed easily and go poof after some time
> and that isnt even a good strategy, say tobirama teleports to the clone to avoid an attack of itachi and itachi attacks again now they dont have anywhere to run since both the clone and tobirama are side by side



He has infinite chakra, if he makes 5 clones for example, he can teleport to which ever he needs/wants to and why would he create/mark only 1 clone if he's going to use them as teleporting tools? Then he has 5 places to teleport to and plus to the marks he creates on the ground.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 23, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> The surroundings isn't the only thing he can mark, he can mark his clones who can also use Hiraishin.



Again, that doesn't grant him Minato's mobility and speed.

He tags a clone, and his path is still tracable. 

In Minato's case, he can set up way too many marks in a short while with less effort and he can keep setting them up through out the fight. Plus he has other utility and damage techniques which Tobirama lacks.

I think we need to Tobirama fight a high tier opponent 1 on 1 for us to be able to make a fair assessment on how he'd do against Itachi. 
So far, all of his display revolves around working with other people.



Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> I'm pretty sure that Itachi won't use his strongest attacks at the beginning of the battle and Tobirama wouldn't need more than a couple of seconds to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> He has infinite chakra, if he makes 5 clones for example, he can teleport to which ever he needs/wants to and why would he create/mark only 1 clone if he's going to use them as teleporting tools? Then he has 5 places to teleport to and plus to the marks he creates on the ground.



Infinite chakra didn't allow him to continously spam clones, otherwise he would have done that.

Infinite chakra is basically infinite chakra regen not infite chakra pool, he can't exceed his capacity.


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## Dominus (Oct 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Again, that doesn't grant him Minato's mobility and speed.
> 
> He tags a clone, and his path is still tracable.
> 
> In Minato's case, he can set up way too many marks in a short while with less effort and he can keep setting them up through out the fight. Plus he has other utility and damage techniques which Tobirama lacks.



I'm not sure why you're comparing Minato's and Tobirama's Hiraishin when it has nothing to do with this battle. His Hiraishin would still be extremely useful.



> I think we need to Tobirama fight a high tier opponent 1 on 1 for us to be able to make a fair assessment on how he'd do against Itachi.
> So far, all of his display revolves around working with other people.



He was portrayed as someone who is stronger than Izuna, all MS users are around the same level from what we've seen. There aren't any large gaps when it comes to power.



> Infinite chakra didn't allow him to continously spam clones, otherwise he would have done that.
> 
> Infinite chakra is basically infinite chakra regen not infite chakra pool, he can't exceed his capacity.



I never said that he has more chakra than he had when he was alive, my point was that he can make clones and won't run out of chakra since he has unlimited stamina.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 23, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> I'm not sure why you're comparing Minato's and Tobirama's Hiraishin when it has nothing to do with this battle. His Hiraishin would still be extremely useful.



I'd say Tobirama's Hirashin is more useful in more passive situations than it is in agressive situations.
He can't be as agressive as Minato with it.





> He was portrayed as someone who is stronger than Izuna, all MS users are around the same level from what we've seen. There aren't any large gaps when it comes to power.


you mention large gaps between MS users but was there a large gap between Tobirama and Izuna ? I didn't see if there was, because they were old rivals and for that to happen they should be in the same ballpark.

And I hate resorting to this but it is a fact, Izuna is an undeveloped and unimportant character with no feats of his own.

I really can't put him on the same level as Sasuke, Obito, Madara, Itachi or even Kakashi without actually seeing what he can do.



> I never said that he has more chakra than he had when he was alive, my point was that he can make clones and won't run out of chakra since he has unlimited stamina.



And I am saying that he can't do it constantly. He can create some clones and he'll need to wait to replenish his chakra. 
Otherwise every EDO we've seen so far would spam their techniques without a break, none of them did anything of that sort.


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## Alita (Oct 23, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> Itachi can pierce any of Hashi's mokutons with totsuka and block them with yata mirror. If you lock at the fact Hashirama is an idiot like Naruto, Itachi could troll and beat him.
> 
> Since when got this Hashirama vs Itachi? It's Itachi vs Tobirama, and this is definitly Itachi's win.


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## Dominus (Oct 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd say Tobirama's Hirashin is more useful in more passive situations than it is in agressive situations.
> He can't be as agressive as Minato with it.



Not really, he just can't get a mark close to his opponent as fast as Minato since he just has to throw a kunai, while Tobirama has to create a clone, put a mark on it and then use the clone to get close to his enemy. But the problem with kunai is that the kunai are immobile (they can't move on their own, he has to teleport to them and then throw them again if he wants to change their location and they can be pushed away/blocked with just elemental ninjutsu), but the clones aren't, they are better in that department.
And I still don't see why you're comparing their techniques when Minato has nothing to do with this battle.



> you mention large gaps between MS users but was there a large gap between Tobirama and Izuna ? I didn't see if there was, because they were old rivals and for that to happen they should be in the same ballpark.
> 
> And I hate resorting to this but it is a fact, Izuna is an undeveloped and unimportant character with no feats of his own.
> 
> I really can't put him on the same level as Sasuke, Obito, Madara, Itachi or even Kakashi without actually seeing what he can do.



I know that Izuna is featless, but when we compare MS Sasuke, Itachi, MS Obito and current Kakashi, there isn't a big difference in strength, so it's only logical to assume that Izuna wasn't much weaker/stronger than them. Tobirama was young when he killed him, many years have passed after that and he certainly became stronger. Tobirama has seen someone using Kagutsuchi, it could've been Izuna since we haven't seen Madara use it. He would've probably used it instead of "regular" fire techniques. But even if Izuna couldn't use it, it's important for this fight because Itachi can use Amaterasu and Tobirama must have fought that Kagutsuchi user, I don't think he just watched, so Amaterasu shouldn't be too much of a problem for him.



> And I am saying that he can't do it constantly. He can create some clones and he'll need to wait to replenish his chakra.
> Otherwise every EDO we've seen so far would spam their techniques without a break, none of them did anything of that sort.



Their chakra is still being replenished which means he won't get tired, he doesn't need to use clones the whole time, by the time the first clones he created are destroyed, he can make new ones.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 23, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> Not really, he just can't get a mark close to his opponent as fast as Minato since he just has to throw a kunai, while Tobirama has to create a clone, put a mark on it and then use the clone to get close to his enemy. But the problem with kunai is that the kunai are immobile (they can't move on their own, he has to teleport to them and then throw them again if he wants to change their location and they can be pushed away/blocked with just elemental ninjutsu), but the clones aren't, they are better in that department.
> And I still don't see why you're comparing their techniques when Minato has nothing to do with this battle.


I am comparing them because like I said we didn't see Tobirama in a 1on1 situation. 
The only Hirashin in action in an agressive situation feats belong to Minato.

And seeing how Tobirama's victory depends on the way he utilizes his clones here, I'd say it would be pretty damn circumstantial, given clones strategies are not very reliable, and most of the time they need to outmanuver/outsmart their opponent to succeed.

In this case, against Itachi, I don't see Tobirama outsmarting or outmanuvering him. Which doesn't leave Tobirama with much else to play with, and he is completely outclassed when it comes to power.




> I know that Izuna is featless, but when we compare MS Sasuke, Itachi, MS Obito and current Kakashi, there isn't a big difference in strength, so it's only logical to assume that Izuna wasn't much weaker/stronger than them. Tobirama was young when he killed him, many years have passed after that and he certainly became stronger. Tobirama has seen someone using Kagutsuchi, it could've been Izuna since we haven't seen Madara use it. He would've probably used it instead of "regular" fire techniques. But even if Izuna couldn't use it, it's important for this fight because Itachi can use Amaterasu and Tobirama must have fought that Kagutsuchi user, I don't think he just watched, so Amaterasu shouldn't be too much of a problem for him.


Well If Izuna was around Kirabi fight Sasuke level, then I'd say he is significantly weaker than the current MS users we know.

He surely can't be too weak, but like I said, Tobirama's offpanel victory doesn't tell us much about that encounter. It is impossible to assess how he'd do against other people, mostly because we don't know what MS jutsus Izuna had at that point. Ms users tend to have different techniques.




> Their chakra is still being replenished which means he won't get tired, he doesn't need to use clones the whole time, by the time the first clones he created are destroyed, he can make new ones.



I know, all I am saying is that Tobirama can't spam clones the way Naruto does. So even with clones, his Hirashin mobility will be limited.
And like someone else mentioned priorly, summoning a clone and tagging it requires more effort than tossing an already marked kunai.
Tobirama executing that tactic would suggest that his opponent would always give him the chance to execute it.
I just don't think it is very practical, thats all.


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## Dominus (Oct 24, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am comparing them because like I said we didn't see Tobirama in a 1on1 situation.
> The only Hirashin in action in an agressive situation feats belong to Minato.
> 
> And seeing how Tobirama's victory depends on the way he utilizes his clones here, I'd say it would be pretty damn circumstantial, given clones strategies are not very reliable, and most of the time they need to outmanuver/outsmart their opponent to succeed.
> ...



Using Hiraishin to teleport to his clones can be used both offensively and defensively, he can move the clones close to his opponent and then teleport to attack. Him creating and marking his clones won't take much time and since Itachi isn't someone who uses all of his strongest attacks at the beginning, it shouldn't be difficult for Tobirama to pull it off. 

I don't think Izuna was weaker than the other MS users if he was the one Tobirama talked about (the one who could use Enton). You made it seem like Itachi wouldn't break a sweat in this fight, but that's not true, Tobirama already fought and killed a MS user and has seen all of MS techniques that Itachi has. Itachi ofc. has a chance and if he can win this battle, it certainly won't be easy.

I think the fight also depends a lot on whether Tobirama can teleport his Susanoo away (we've seen that the user and Susanoo can be separated and we've seen Itachi outside of it even when he's using the said technique) or the Yata Mirror, without it Gojō Kibaku Fuda could work, that technique could also work if Itachi is using his incomplete Susanoo. He could also lose if he gets marked or if Tobirama manages to put those explosive tags on Itachi before he uses Susanoo. If Itachi was alive, Tobirama would most likely be the winner, but since it's Edo Itachi, this battle is much closer.


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## Brooks (Oct 24, 2013)

Itachi should able to take this...

Even if Tobirama has knowledge on Tsukuyomi...it won't help do the fact he would still need to look at his opponent to stand a chance here...that's unless someone is suggesting Tobirama can actually take on Itachi while not looking straight at his opponent ? anyway, Tobirama has no way of going up against Itachi with or without  knowledge on Tsukuyomi.

The King takes Tobirama to school....


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 24, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> Using Hiraishin to teleport to his clones can be used both offensively and defensively, he can move the clones close to his opponent and then teleport to attack. Him creating and marking his clones won't take much time and since* Itachi isn't someone who uses all of his strongest attacks at the beginning*, it shouldn't be difficult for Tobirama to pull it off.


I'd say that Itachi is someone who uses what is necessary.
The guy didn't even hesitate 1 second to OHKO Nagato and his summons with Amaterasu, or simply bust out Susano'o when he dived in Nagato to save Naruto & B.
He also resorted to Izanami right away, the second Kabuto activated Sage Mode. 

The notion that Itachi will allow Tobirama to set up a strategy so easily seems a bit unfounded to me.
Even if he does so, he won't be just standing, he'll be forming his own strategy, which would involve some clone feint or a genjutsu blitz.





> I don't think Izuna was weaker than the other MS users if he was the one Tobirama talked about (the one who could use Enton)


.
Even if Izuna was capable of using enton, that doesn't put him on equal footing with Itachi or Sasuke, considering enton isn't the strongest jutsu in their arsenal.
Plus we aren't sure of his mastery of enton. Sasuke's mastery was pretty limited in the summit arc, and he didn't even use it against Danzo.





> You made it seem like Itachi wouldn't break a sweat in this fight, but that's not true, Tobirama already fought and killed a MS user and has seen all of MS techniques that Itachi has. Itachi ofc. has a chance and if he can win this battle, it certainly won't be easy.



I don't think it would be easy, but I also don't think it will be too hard either. 
From what I've seen from Tobirama, he is limited in both offense and defense.
I really can't approach this fight with just hype, that is being unfair to Itachi.




> I think the fight also depends a lot on whether Tobirama can teleport his Susanoo away (we've seen that the user and Susanoo can be separated and we've seen Itachi outside of it even when he's using the said technique) or the Yata Mirror, without it Gojō Kibaku Fuda could work, that technique could also work if Itachi is using his incomplete Susanoo. He could also lose if he gets marked or if Tobirama manages to put those explosive tags on Itachi before he uses Susanoo. If Itachi was alive, Tobirama would most likely be the winner, but since it's Edo Itachi, this battle is much closer.



I don't think that technique is strong enough to deal significant damage to Itachi as long as Itachi can use any form of Susano'o.

As for teleporting Susano'o away, it may be possible. Like you said, it is possible to physically rip apart the user from Susano'o. Though as we all know Susano'o can be reformed, so there will be a very small window of opportunity to capitalize on, sorta like the situation with Madara.

I really hate underminig characters that haven't had the opportunity to go all out, but for me Tobirama isn't up there yet. He might be if he shows more though.
Right now, I consider him to be a great support nin.


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## Dominus (Oct 24, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd say that Itachi is someone who uses what is necessary.
> The guy didn't even hesitate 1 second to OHKO Nagato and his summons with Amaterasu, or simply bust out Susano'o when he dived in Nagato to save Naruto & B.
> He also resorted to Izanami right away, the second Kabuto activated Sage Mode.



When he fought Nagato, they were already in the middle of a battle and when he was fighting Kabuto, he had to hurry, because they were in the middle of a war and he needed to stop Kabuto, because without his Edos, the war would be basically over.



> The notion that Itachi will allow Tobirama to set up a strategy so easily seems a bit unfounded to me.
> Even if he does so, he won't be just standing, he'll be forming his own strategy, which would involve some clone feint or a genjutsu blitz.



He doesn't really need that much time, Tobirama can create a couple of clones to fight and to distract Itachi for a couple of moments, while he creates and marks his clones. It's that simple.



> Even if Izuna was capable of using enton, that doesn't put him on equal footing with Itachi or Sasuke, considering enton isn't the strongest jutsu in their arsenal.
> Plus we aren't sure of his mastery of enton. Sasuke's mastery was pretty limited in the summit arc, and he didn't even use it against Danzo.
> 
> I don't think it would be easy, but I also don't think it will be too hard either.
> ...



What I was trying to say is that if he had Enton, that would mean that he wasn't unskilled with MS techniques.



> I don't think that technique is strong enough to deal significant damage to Itachi as long as Itachi can use any form of Susano'o.



If Itachi's using Susanoo's ribcage or an incomplete Susanoo it could work, that technique is the bigger than the bijū.



> As for teleporting Susano'o away, it may be possible. Like you said, it is possible to physically rip apart the user from Susano'o. Though as we all know Susano'o can be reformed, so there will be a very small window of opportunity to capitalize on, sorta like the situation with Madara.



He could use the clones to teleport it away, the second he does that, he can use Gojō Kibaku Fuda.


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## The World (Oct 24, 2013)

Brooks said:


> Itachi should able to take this...
> 
> Even if Tobirama has knowledge on Tsukuyomi...it won't help do the fact he would still need to look at his opponent to stand a chance here...*that's unless someone is suggesting Tobirama can actually take on Itachi while not looking straight at his opponent ?* anyway, Tobirama has no way of going up against Itachi with or without  knowledge on Tsukuyomi.
> 
> The King takes Tobirama to school....



With that kind of logic, Hashirama would lose as well.

Unless that's what you're suggesting?


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## Seon (Oct 25, 2013)

People need to stop looking at Itachi as just an MS user. His intellect is truly almost unparalleled in this series. In most cases, he is at the disadvantage and comes out on top regardless. His deduction ability is not clouded by pride the way Tobiramas is. Tobirama has made errors in his judgement as well as decisions. Itachi has made no such error. Tobirama is much brasher than Itachi which would actually be his downfall.


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## Ersa (Oct 25, 2013)

The World said:


> With that kind of logic, Hashirama would lose as well.
> 
> Unless that's what you're suggesting?


To be fair, Hashirama doesn't need to go anywhere near his opponent. He can spam dat wood from long distance and nuke his opponents with a Buddha that makes Bijuu look tiny. Flower World and Bringer of Darkness only add to his Uchiha killing abilities.


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## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Oct 25, 2013)

Seon said:


> Itachi has made no such error.


Way worse. He thought torturing his little brother would make him stronger somehow and make him a  hero when Sasuke defeats Itachi. He fucked up Sasuke. Itachi is pretty dumb the proof is in the manga.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 25, 2013)

I don't deny Tobi's probably a good deal-ish stronger than the average mangekyou user.
He's fought a few of them including Izuna but I feel it's a stretch to say he's superior to all of them because of that.

Its been said verbatim in the manga MS users have been around the uchiha clan for generations, its not something new.

Itachi/Shisui/Sasuke were all prodigies with the MS. It's kind of like Madara got pissed at Tsunade because she was not as strong as Hashirama. Not all senju are equal and not all uchiha are equal. 

Beating several unnamed MS using uchiha off panel doesn't = beating the prodigy level MS users. Izuna may or may not have been around the level of itachi/shisui/sasuke though to be fair.  I don't think Tobirama wins it through purely hype, its still debatable in terms of hype as itachi was basically the cream of the crop of MS users.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Oct 25, 2013)

Seon said:


> People need to stop looking at Itachi as just an MS user. His intellect is truly almost unparalleled in this series. In most cases, he is at the disadvantage and comes out on top regardless. His deduction ability is not clouded by pride the way Tobiramas is. Tobirama has made errors in his judgement as well as decisions. Itachi has made no such error. Tobirama is much brasher than Itachi which would actually be his downfall.



Well I think we all know Itachi has more attributes than just his MS, but the pinnacle of his strength lies in his eyes, not his intellect.


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## Bonly (Oct 25, 2013)

the_symbol_of_rebirth said:


> Way worse. *He thought torturing his little brother would make him stronger somehow and make him a  hero when Sasuke defeats Itachi.* He fucked up Sasuke. Itachi is pretty dumb the proof is in the manga.



Upon which it drove Sasuke to become stronger(like Itachi wanted) and he would've been a hero had Obito not got his hands into Sasuke(like Itachi wanted), and Sasuke helped bring back the Hoakges and becoming a hero thanks to Itachi   



​


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## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Oct 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Upon which it drove Sasuke to become stronger(like Itachi wanted) and he would've been a hero had Obito not got his hands into Sasuke(like Itachi wanted), and Sasuke helped bring back the Hoakges and becoming a hero thanks to Itachi
> 
> 
> 
> ​


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## Brooks (Oct 25, 2013)

The World said:


> With that kind of logic, Hashirama would lose as well.
> 
> Unless that's what you're suggesting?



I'm getting the feeling you didn't see the distance between those two characters....both Hashirama and Madara were spamming their techniques from long ranges for Hashirama to even be caught in a genjutsu...


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## insane111 (Oct 25, 2013)

I don't know why people try to use that ridiculous argument "but he could just spam <insert ability> forever because he's an edo!".

Doing that would be completely out of character.



> *Mindset: IC*


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## Sadgoob (Oct 25, 2013)

insane111 said:


> I don't know why people try to use that ridiculous argument "but he could just spam <insert ability> forever because he's an edo!".
> 
> Doing that would be completely out of character.



Maybe you missed his battle against Nagato.


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## insane111 (Oct 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Maybe you missed his battle against Nagato.



What about it? He used Amaterasu 1 time on the summon, then used Susano'o for a short time at the end to help Naruto/Bee and seal Nagato. 

Where did he abuse his edo chakra to specifically spam 1 ability for an abnormal amount of time?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 25, 2013)

insane111 said:


> What about it? He used Amaterasu 1 time on the summon, then used Susano'o for a short time at the end to help Naruto/Bee and seal Nagato.



He used Amaterasu on Nagato, then the Cerberus, then used Susano'o to rescue Naruto and Bee, then whipped out Susano'o again to seal Nagato. He used them non-stop the moment had had control.

If he had to spam more he would have, but it's pretty clear that he's A-okay with doing so. It's IC.​


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## Baroxio (Oct 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He used Amaterasu on Nagato, then the Cerberus, then used Susano'o to rescue Naruto and Bee, then whipped out Susano'o againt to seal Nagato. If he had to spam more he would have, but it's pretty clear that he's A-okay with doing so.​


Actually it was Cerberus first, then Nagato & his bird second.


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## insane111 (Oct 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He used Amaterasu on Nagato, then the Cerberus, then used Susano'o to rescue Naruto and Bee, then whipped out Susano'o again to seal Nagato. He used them non-stop the moment had had control.
> 
> If he had to spam more he would have, but it's pretty clear that he's A-okay with doing so. It's IC.​



I forgot about the 2nd ama, but all of the Susano'o stuff happened in 1 go and in a short span of time. Itachi activated it to save N/B, then Nagato uses CT immediately after that while it's still active, then the fight ended. 

 Itachi basically maintained Susano'o for a short couple minutes, nothing spammy about that.


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## BurningVegeta (Oct 26, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Right, and I've never seen Tobirama tag the floor. Do you really want to play that game?
> 
> Of course, tagging the earth and transporting himself to anywhere on the earth clearly isn't how Hirashin works, so I'm not even going to continue that point.
> 
> ...


. 

Susanoo has never been used without interruptions from Itachi when he was an Edo Tensei or a regular living being. So why are you trying to say he will use it infinitely now?


Baroxio said:


> How does this confer a plurality of seal tags?
> 
> You literally just stated that there is only one *seal* allowing him to traverse the entire battlefield, otherwise you would have said *seals*.
> 
> Don't blame me for your grammar mistake.


You know how Harishin works and you decided to support the logic I don't to support your own argument. That is some retarded shit dude, it wasn't a grammatical mistake it was just you assuming.



> But now that such an argument is out of the way, Tobirama isn't going to be able to get a tag anywhere near Itachi, especially because he can literally just camp in Susano and spam Amaterasu if Tobirama gets close. And if Itachi covers the place in Amaterasu like he did on his deathbed vs. Sasuke, Hirashin isn't going to do jack.


Itachi has not and will not stay inside his Susanoo 100% of the time. It is unlikely he will even start with Susanoo.


I Am Probably Wrong said:


> I never said _spam_, I said he can use it indefinitely, which basically means he has the ability to use it to keep Tobirama away, and then counter attack accordingly, and Tobirama undeniably can't get through Susanoo's defense with what he's shown.


You said "he can use Susanoo indefinitely" that sounds like spam to me. If he hasn't got it 100% of the time Tobirama can find an opening and shot him with a Suidanha.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 26, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> You said "he can use Susanoo indefinitely" that sounds like spam to me. If he hasn't got it 100% of the time Tobirama can find an opening and shot him with a Suidanha.


So a tiny fucking stream of water is going to kill Itachi? Because he totally can't stop it will a fireball jutsu.

Tobirama lacks many offensive techniques that Itachi would have a problem with.


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## Rinnegan Zetsu (Oct 26, 2013)

Well, let's take a look at this for a second.

Edo Tobirama might stand a chance if he uses marked kunai like Minato or marks Edo Itachi. Once that happens, it's pretty much game over for Edo Itachi since Edo Tobirama can teleport to avoid/deliver attacks. Edo Tobirama could use his body for the multiplying explosives as well. However, Edo Itachi can easily take this by using Susanoo with Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror. Not only will he be able to block all of Edo Tobirama's attack, but he can one-shot him, ending the battle. Also, Edo Itachi could use Izanami to trap Edo Tobirama in a loop (although I doubt it'd be as effective against him as it was Kabuto depending on whether or not he's running from his fate). Without Susanoo and Izanami, Edo Itachi still has MS, and can use Amaterasu/Tsukiyomi to end the battle quickly. So, yeah, Itachi wins this with little to no difficulty.


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## BurningVegeta (Oct 27, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> So a tiny fucking stream of water is going to kill Itachi? Because he totally can'tstop it will a fireball jutsu.
> 
> Tobirama lacks many offensive techniques that Itachi would have a problem with.




I'm going to out on a limb here and assume you don't know what a motherfucking opening is. If there is an opening and Itachi takes the Suidanha Jutsu to the face, there is no coming back from that. Why oh why do people persist in taking words of others out of context to suit their stance, it is pathetic?


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