# Strongest Opponent Base Itachi can beat



## JuicyG (Jan 5, 2015)

Location: Chunin Exam Finals

Distance: 15 M

Mindset: Ic 

Knowledge: Manga

Restrictions: Itachi cannot use MS: Itachi is allowed his Katana

SC1 : Genjutsu is also restricted

SC2 : Genjutsu is allowed


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## Cognitios (Jan 5, 2015)

SC1: I'd probably have to say Sasori. His evasion skills are better than sakuras and his eyes allow him to see Sasori's weakness. Orochimaru/Tsunade are other contenders.

SC2: Onoki/Third Raikage/Trollkage/Muu
Whoever you think is strongest.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 5, 2015)

Cognitios said:


> SC1: I'd probably have to say Sasori. His evasion skills are better than sakuras and his eyes allow him to see Sasori's weakness. Orochimaru/Tsunade are other contenders.
> 
> SC2: Onoki/Third Raikage/Trollkage/Muu
> Whoever you think is strongest.



Agree on SC1.

In SC2, i'd say he can beat any Akatsuki member, except Pain.


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## Cognitios (Jan 5, 2015)

> In SC2, i'd say he can beat any Akatsuki member, except Pain.


All those kage are above every akatsuki member except pain
ck


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## IchLiebe (Jan 5, 2015)

Cognitios said:


> SC1: I'd probably have to say Sasori. His evasion skills are better than sakuras and his eyes allow him to see Sasori's weakness. Orochimaru/Tsunade are other contenders.



LOL without MS and sharingan he can't kill any of them. Orochimaru and Tsunade are simply not being killed by lolkatons.



> SC2: Onoki/Third Raikage/Trollkage/Muu
> Whoever you think is strongest.



LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 5, 2015)

Oh, Itachi cant use MS's abilities... Should have read OP more attentively.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 5, 2015)

The title of the thread says "Base Itachi"...


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## StarWanderer (Jan 5, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> The title of the thread says "Base Itachi"...



Ma fail, bro. It happens.


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## Bkprince33 (Jan 5, 2015)

probably onoki or orochimaru with ET restricted


with genjutsu restricted maybe sasori


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## Cognitios (Jan 5, 2015)

> LOL without MS and sharingan he can't kill any of them. Orochimaru and Tsunade are simply not being killed by lolkatons.


Beheading tends to work fairly well. He has his sword and katons are a more powerful offense than Orochimaru has shown.



> LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.


Your retort never ceases to amaze.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 5, 2015)

Cognitios said:


> Beheading tends to work fairly well. He has his sword and katons are a more powerful offense than Orochimaru has shown.


You got a scan that says beheading is a possible way to kill Orochimaru? He has liquid rebirth.

Tsunade would kill itachi with a punch if he got in close like he did against Kabuto. 

He barely gets through Hiruko, much less the rest of Sasori's arsenal.





> Your retort never ceases to amaze.


Your post never fail to give me a laugh.


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## ARGUS (Jan 5, 2015)

Tsunade, and Orochimaru are the strongest that 3T itachi could beat,  

and Lol at Itachi beating people like Muu and Third Raikage without his MS, 
also Lol at Konohomaru beating itachi,


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 5, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Tsunade, is  the strongest that 3T itachi could beat,
> 
> and Lol at Itachi beating people like Muu and Third Raikage without his MS,
> also Lol at Konohomaru beating itachi,


Tsuande isn't being beaten by three tomoe Itachi. He has absolutely NOTHING to put her down. She'll regenerate from every attack and she has superior taijutsu to him. Not only that, with Katsuyu he doesn't have any means to damage her.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 5, 2015)

S1: Under these circumstances, Itachi might be able to take Mifune or base Killer B (no partial Bijuu manifestations). He'd have a great deal of trouble with them, though, and he might not be able to win. Itachi's victory would be more certain over guys like Darui, Kitsuchi, and part I Kakashi.

S2: Itachi trashed Orochimaru with close to zero effort, so the Sannin and anyone comparable would fall short of the mark. I can't think of anyone stronger than those three who would be susceptible to his Genjutsu, though. For lack of a more accurate substitute, I might just have to say the Sannin are the strongest Itachi can beat with MS restricted. Sasori and Deidara both have counters. Anyone stronger is either a Doujutsu user or some kind of monster (like the 3rd Raikage).



First scenario...it's your pretty typical elite Jonin crop. Second scenario...mid to high Kage-levels, particularly those with little or no Genjutsu defense. Genjutsu was always the most dangerous thing about Itachi, simply because of how easy it is to get caught.


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## Cognitios (Jan 5, 2015)

> You got a scan that says beheading is a possible way to kill Orochimaru? He has liquid rebirth.


Cutting him to pieces might work pretty well. Liquid Rebirth takes a hella lot of chakra.


> Tsunade would kill itachi with a punch if he got in close like he did against Kabuto.


Itachi's speed allowed him to keep up with KCM Naruto/Killer Bee in CQC. Both of whom run circles around Tsunade. Sharingan precog allows him to handle CQC and decapitate her.


> He barely gets through Hiruko, much less the rest of Sasori's arsenal.


Wood + Fire = ashes
Especially the fire that burned Samehada.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 5, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsuande isn't being beaten by three tomoe Itachi. He has absolutely NOTHING to put her down. She'll regenerate from every attack and she has superior taijutsu to him. Not only that, with Katsuyu he doesn't have any means to damage her.



Itachi has Genjutsu and (in this thread, at least) a katana. He can decapitate Tsunade after paralyzing her and punt her head into the bushes, or set it on fire, or do whatever he wants with it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 5, 2015)

Cognitios said:


> Cutting him to pieces might work pretty well. Liquid Rebirth takes a hella lot of chakra.


Actually, to Orochimaru his Orochimaru Style Replacement Technique doesn't take up a lot of chakra. He can continuously create a new body while Itachi runs out of chakra. Itachi has nothing in base that can put Orochimaru down, plain and simple.


> Itachi's speed allowed him to keep up with KCM Naruto/Killer Bee in CQC. Both of whom run circles around Tsunade. Sharingan precog allows him to handle CQC and decapitate her.


Itachi faced a KCM Naruto who attacked him with his base level of speed and Killer Bee _forced him to retreat._ He never faced Naruto's full speed and when faced with Killer Bee's sword dance he fled. 

Tsunade could face _FIVE MADARA'S_, who are stronger, faster, and have the same precog that Itachi has and couldn't be beheaded even though they had Susano'o up. Seriously, stop claiming Itachi can run circles around her when his fighting style isn't like that.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jan 6, 2015)

base Itachi can beat 1 ms kakashi & chiyo


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## Nikushimi (Jan 6, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade could face _FIVE MADARA'S_, who are stronger, faster, and have the same precog that Itachi has and couldn't be beheaded even though they had Susano'o up.



*Madara wood clones.

Not stronger or faster than Itachi. Actually, based on feats, they were much slower and weaker than Itachi. If you think Tsunade could fend off five Itachis at the same time, please kill yourself. ck



> Seriously, stop claiming Itachi can run circles around her when his fighting style isn't like that.



Itachi's fighting style is "exploit the enemy's stupid and hit from a blind spot." He has the speed and the cunning to decapitate Tsunade. More than enough.

He took off Nagato's arms and nearly Kabuto's head. Tsunade doesn't have the same reflexes as Sage Kabuto, so that narrow miss bodes ill for her neck.


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## Bonly (Jan 6, 2015)

I'd say he has a good shot at beating Tsunade


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## sabre320 (Jan 6, 2015)

Cognitios said:


> SC1: I'd probably have to say Sasori. His evasion skills are better than sakuras and his eyes allow him to see Sasori's weakness. Orochimaru/Tsunade are other contenders.
> 
> SC2: Onoki/Third Raikage/Trollkage/Muu
> Whoever you think is strongest.



Orochimaru go,s hydra gg....orochimaru bites his lip breaks genjutsu itachi can keep hitting him his dps cannot kill orochimaru...nevermind read sc1 no genjutsu lolololol you think itachi beats orochimaru without genjutsu whats he gonna do fireball?

Oonoki wasnt caught in genjutsu against ems madara and 5 clones pressuring him with sussano....third raikage without ms you jokin....muu is a sensor who can erase his presence and use long range jinton..stop underestimating these guys they are high kage itachis gettin raped without ms..


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## IchLiebe (Jan 6, 2015)

Cognitios said:


> Cutting him to pieces might work pretty well. Liquid Rebirth takes a hella lot of chakra.


And doing that would release the paralyzing toxins then Orochimaru can just kill Itachi. Not to mention Orochimaru has the true sword of Kusanagi. Manda and other snake summons plus Hydra would destroy Itachi.

Also according to the latest DB Orochimaru was more or less on his deathbed when he attempted to take Itachi's body. 


> Itachi's speed allowed him to keep up with KCM Naruto/Killer Bee in CQC. Both of whom run circles around Tsunade. Sharingan precog allows him to handle CQC and decapitate her.


A Naruto that didn't use any sort of speed at all, except to intercept Itachi mid air and whom was talking the entire time and nowhere near serious. Killerbee forced Itachi back in CQC and kept pace and countered everything Itachi did perfectly.

And Tsunade is unpredictable in her taijutsu. She can smash the ground which forces Itachi to jump into the air or stay on an unstable footing. Then Tsunade proceeds to fuck him up. Not to mention the great Katsuyu.


> Wood + Fire = ashes
> Especially the fire that burned Samehada.


Yes because the great Sasori that took out many opponents with hiruko would fall victim to Katon. And lets say it does destroy Hiruko, then what? Itachi is facing the true Sasori with the 3rd kazekage and a 100 puppets. Sasori wrecks Itachi.

This is fucking ridiculous.


@Nikushimi

Mifune slaughters the fuck out of Itachi.

Even in Scenario 2 he gets trashed.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> and Lol at Itachi beating people like Muu and Third Raikage without his MS



I think it's dumb to say Itachi couldn't trick the 3rd into stabbing himself with genjutsu if Naruto tricked him with a Rasengan. 

Similarly, if the Sharingan sees through invisibility, then base Itachi would have a good shot at beating Muu because of his speed being high enough to evade Muu, and then clone feint him.

Most poeple forget that the DB shows Itachi as the ninja with mastery (has more "5's") in the most ninja areas, beyond all of the Sannin. So he's Kage level without his Sharingan.​


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## Alex Payne (Jan 6, 2015)

Itachi can beat quite a few powerful people who lack solid experience fighting Sharingan and/or a solid counter. His abilities are decently lethal and extremely tricky to guard against. He lacks firepower and good defensive abilities but still can do a lot of damage/evade serious shit by a well-placed genjutsu. I can see Gengetsu losing, Mei too. Mu and 3rd Raikage... Itachi can _potentially_ win but it is not in his favor overall. You'd need to skewer conditions in Itachi's favor a bit too much for him to stand a decent chance against those two.  




Strategoob said:


> So he's Kage level without his Sharingan.​


By Part 1 standards maybe.


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## GearsUp (Jan 6, 2015)

TS ino depending on distance


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## JuicyG (Jan 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I think it's dumb to say Itachi couldn't trick the 3rd into stabbing himself with genjutsu if Naruto tricked him with a Rasengan. ​




.....Nice way to twist the story.

Naruto never 'tricked' the 3rd Raikage into hitting himself, go re-read that chapter please.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2015)

JuicyG said:


> .....Nice way to twist the story. Naruto never 'tricked' the 3rd Raikage into hitting himself, go re-read that chapter please.



Semantics. 'Caught him off guard.' Whatever.​


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## Mercurial (Jan 6, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> And doing that would release the paralyzing toxins then Orochimaru can just kill Itachi. Not to mention Orochimaru has the true sword of Kusanagi. Manda and other snake summons plus Hydra would destroy Itachi.
> 
> Also according to the latest DB Orochimaru was more or less on his deathbed when he attempted to take Itachi's body.
> A Naruto that didn't use any sort of speed at all, except to intercept Itachi mid air and whom was talking the entire time and nowhere near serious. Killerbee forced Itachi back in CQC and kept pace and countered everything Itachi did perfectly.
> ...



I agree that KCM Naruto wasn't serious, wasn't using his full speed or even his real no Shunshin speed and has his chakra already depleted by the Tajuu Kage Bunshin to help the Alliance, to the point that at the end of the Nagato fight, where he used only a couple of Rasenshuriken, he couldn't even use the Kage Bunshin withuout losing the KCM. But still Itachi is tiers faster than Tsunade, has Sharingan precognition, is a lot more skilled and flawless in taijutsu, can trick and fool her everyday with high speed execution of Karasu Bunshin and then put a kunai in her head, or use Sharingan genjutsu. She is not even dreaming to touch him. Her strength is useless therefore. The "punch the ground" means nothing, Tsunade did the same against Kabuto and Orochimaru, that are everything bar skilled taijutsu fighters, and guess what, they just dodged her hits and nothing else happened.

If Chiyo could dodge every single attack from Hiruko, Itachi, who is tiers faster and with better reflexes and also is a highly skilled bushinjutsu user, can definitely do the same if not better even if he hasn't full knowledge on them as Chiyo had. Then he would need his MS to defeat Sasori, I agree on that. But it's not like that is shameful, MS is still part of his own power.


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## Zenith (Jan 6, 2015)

Kaguya 

depending on the scenario


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## JuicyG (Jan 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Semantics. 'Caught him off guard.' Whatever.​




Actually. Naruto switched to use SM so that he could use his increased reflexes to dodge hell stab at a very close distance to land the Rasengan and change the trajectory of the attack to hit the 3rd himself. That reaction feat that close from the hell stab attack is a feat Itachi would not be able to replicate. He would have to find some other way. If genjutsu is applied to this fight, then it is possible that Itachi to win, doesn't mean its likely. Without genjutsu, Itachi loses 10/10.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 6, 2015)

JuicyG said:


> That reaction feat that close from the hell stab attack is a feat Itachi would not be able to replicate.


Based on?

We have Sasuke dodging arguably faster(comparable in speed at least) attack while landing his own attack. And Sasuke's speed was either just as good or inferior to Itachi's. Linear attacks like Hell Stab aren't the best choice when fighting Sharingan-users.


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## RedChidori (Jan 6, 2015)

Itachi soloes both scenarios .


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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2015)

JuicyG said:


> That reaction feat that close from the hell stab attack is a feat Itachi would not be able to replicate. He would have to find some other way.



Right. Itachi would not use Sage reflexes and Rasengan to defeat the 3rd Raikage. I meant that he'd use genjutsu to trick the Raikage into using his own jutsu against himself (like with Deidara.)

Secondly, I think you're underestimating Itachi's reflexes. 5/5 reflexes (equal to Gai) with the 3-tomoe boost is formidable.​


JuicyG said:


> Without genjutsu, Itachi loses 10/10.



I agree. Itachi has nothing in his base arsenal that can hurt the Raikage. His only option would be using genjutsu to get the Raikage to hurt himself, which I think is rather likely from him.​


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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> By Part 1 standards maybe.



I think   could realistically work on the majority of Kage levels in both parts.

I also think that Bee, who fought the Sharingan, was having enough trouble and consistently being warned and helped by his allies and enemies, that most ninja wouldn't be able to cope.

After all, most ninja don't have Bee's crazy reflexes, genjutsu defense, partial transformations, or ninjutsu absorption, and Itachi was pushing those defenses while evading Bee and Naruto.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 6, 2015)

I'd say part 1 Kakashi would be the best base Itachi can do. That Kakashi actually pushed Itachi to use the MS. 
Kakashi was actually able to outsmart base Itachi in part 2. 

Shouten Itachi showed base Itachi's power.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That Kakashi actually pushed Itachi to use the MS.



Just like Itachi was pushed to use it on p1 Sasuke.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kakashi was actually able to outsmart base Itachi in part 2.



Just like Zabuza "outsmarted" Kakashi.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Shouten Itachi showed base Itachi's power.



More like the base strength of a 30% (1 of 3) shadow clone.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Just like Itachi was pushed to use it on p1 Sasuke.
> 
> Just like Zabuza "outsmarted" Kakashi.



I see you're still a fan of using false analogies. Itachi chose to use it on Sasuke; Kakashi saw through all base Itachi's moves.



> More like the base strength of a 30% (1 of 3) shadow clone.



That's just chakra level; his base capabilities would be the same. Hence Itachi always used the MS outside Shouten and against Kakashi when given the option.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kakashi saw through all base Itachi's moves.



We've only ever seen base Itachi fight aggressively against Killer Bee. If you compare him in that fight with his fight against p1 Kakashi, you can see that he wasn't going all out in base ability. 

Moreover, prior to Tsukuyomi, it was made clear that Kakashi was exhausted and Itachi was not. It would have just gone much worse from Kakashi from that point, regardless of Itachi's aggression.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's just chakra level; his base capabilities would be the same.



We've seen repeatedly that clones with less and less chakra are less and less powerful overall. The more that are made, the smaller the chakra, the more fodder-like they become.

This would be incredibly relevant for a ninja like p2 Itachi, who doesn't have all that much chakra to spare, meaning that 30% of his chakra would impair his abilities more significantly.​


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## IchLiebe (Jan 6, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> I agree that KCM Naruto wasn't serious, wasn't using his full speed or even his real no Shunshin speed and has his chakra already depleted by the Tajuu Kage Bunshin to help the Alliance, to the point that at the end of the Nagato fight, where he used only a couple of Rasenshuriken, he couldn't even use the Kage Bunshin withuout losing the KCM. But still Itachi is tiers faster than Tsunade, has Sharingan precognition, is a lot more skilled and flawless in taijutsu, can trick and fool her everyday with high speed execution of Karasu Bunshin and then put a kunai in her head, or use Sharingan genjutsu. She is not even dreaming to touch him. Her strength is useless therefore. The "punch the ground" means nothing, Tsunade did the same against Kabuto and Orochimaru, that are everything bar skilled taijutsu fighters, and guess what, they just dodged her hits and nothing else happened.


And what lasting damage can he do against Tsunade? What about Katsuyu? Honestly what the fuck can Itachi do against katsuyu and tsunade.


> If Chiyo could dodge every single attack from Hiruko, Itachi, who is tiers faster and with better reflexes and also is a highly skilled bushinjutsu user, can definitely do the same if not better even if he hasn't full knowledge on them as Chiyo had. Then he would need his MS to defeat Sasori, I agree on that. But it's not like that is shameful, MS is still part of his own power.


Chiyo had indepth knowledge of Sasori.

2
2
2

Chiyo even stated that it was due to her immense battle experience and puppetry knoweldge that allows her to fight against Hiruko.

Link removed

Also reflexes and quickness mean absolutely shit against Traps of a puppet that are known to be unpredictable, quick, and cover a large area.

And, Hiruko isn't but a fraction of Sasori's arsenal. You do realize Itachi can't even get scratched right? Not to mention that Sasori could just control Itachi with chakra threads.

Chiyo even admitted she couldn't destroy Hiruko. And she showed to abilities to eat through puppets with her vacuum destruction attack.

Nothing you show, can prove that Itachi can put out as much destruction as Sakura did. THats its. No if and or buts if lol katons can do anything or not, because so far we have nothing to base that on except that wood burns once you get it hot enough for long enough. Also hiruko has really good traps.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> We've only ever seen base Itachi fight aggressively against Killer Bee. If you compare him in that fight with his fight against p1 Kakashi, you can see that he wasn't going all out in base ability.
> 
> Moreover, prior to Tsukuyomi, it was made clear that Kakashi was exhausted and Itachi was not. It would have just gone much worse from Kakashi from that point, regardless of Itachi's aggression.​


I see nothing that he did against Bee that shows more than Kakashi if anything they were about the same. The only difference was that Kakashi was fighting while protecting two blind jounin(one that is absolutely pathetic(Kurenai)) and he reacted to everything Itachi attempted. Also when Gai showed up, not even in gates Itachi decided to retreat.



> We've seen repeatedly that clones with less and less chakra are less and less powerful overall. The more that are made, the smaller the chakra, the more fodder-like they become.
> 
> This would be incredibly relevant for a ninja like p2 Itachi, who doesn't have all that much chakra to spare, meaning that 30% of his chakra would impair his abilities more significantly.​


Yet his abilities are still of the same strength. Also his speed and reflexes wouldn't take a hit as those are inherent skills that aren't divided amongst Clones.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> I see nothing that he did against Bee that shows more than Kakashi if anything they were about the same.



Itachi stood still against Kakashi, and used one jutsu at a time (suiton and clone feint.) Then gave kudos to Kakashi for being able to see his seal speed with his Sharingan.

Against Bee, Itachi was aggressively using shunshin to flank Bee by surprise and unloaded weapons, genjutsu, and fireballs all simultaneously. It was much more aggressive.​


IchLiebe said:


> Also his speed and reflexes wouldn't take a hit as those are inherent skills that aren't divided amongst Clones.



The 10 Zabuza clones that were blitzed by Wave Arc Sasuke without a Sharingan would beg to differ. 

And an additional example would be the Jonin that Gaiden Kakashi fought. Kakashi killed 12 of his clones easily, but then Minato had to save him from the real one precisely because of counter-speed.​


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## Sans (Jan 7, 2015)

Tobirama says that him and Minato need to act in person, because clones using Hiraishin is too slow:

Link removed


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> We've only ever seen base Itachi fight aggressively against Killer Bee. If you compare him in that fight with his fight against p1 Kakashi, you can see that he wasn't going all out in base ability.
> 
> Moreover, prior to Tsukuyomi, it was made clear that Kakashi was exhausted and Itachi was not. It would have just gone much worse from Kakashi from that point, regardless of Itachi's aggression.



We've seen base Itachi in 3 fights. Two of which he was *forced* to use the MS... one of which he lost because he lacked it.

Part 1 Kakashi was *always* exhausted because of his Sharingan. So that's meaningless. The only meaningful thing is the trend is that when base Itachi cannot overcome a foe, he uses the MS. No MS being available means he loses.



> We've seen repeatedly that clones with less and less chakra are less and less powerful overall. The more that are made, the smaller the chakra, the more fodder-like they become.
> 
> This would be incredibly relevant for a ninja like p2 Itachi, who doesn't have all that much chakra to spare, meaning that 30% of his chakra would impair his abilities more significantly.​


 
Less chakra means shit in this case for a few reasons.
One, Itachi has exceptionally poor chakra reserves. Two, Itachi's favourite clone jutsu is noted to use less chakra than a standard Kage Bunshin.

Moreover, please stop using Kage Bunshin no jutsu's mechanisms to explain the workings of totally different cloning jutsu. 

30% of his chakra means a lot if Itachi had a lot of chakra taxing jutsu apart from the MS. Itachi has no super chakra draining moves outside the MS.

Base Itachi basically loses to the likes of base Kakashi and runs away from the likes of 7 swords Bee.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I think   could realistically work on the majority of Kage levels in both parts.
> 
> I also think that Bee, who fought the Sharingan, was having enough trouble and consistently being warned and helped by his allies and enemies, that most ninja wouldn't be able to cope.
> 
> After all, most ninja don't have Bee's crazy reflexes, genjutsu defense, partial transformations, or ninjutsu absorption, and Itachi was pushing those defenses while evading Bee and Naruto.​


All that was done with Sharingan. Your post have Kage-lvl without Sharingan. He is Kage-lvl without _Mangekyo_ Sharingan. But he still needs 3-tomoe to tackle them big boys.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 7, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> All that was done with Sharingan. Your post have Kage-lvl without Sharingan. He is Kage-lvl without _Mangekyo_ Sharingan. But he still needs 3-tomoe to tackle them big boys.



Oh yeah, you're right. I agree with you.


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## Almondsand (Jan 8, 2015)

Itachi outsmarts a lot of the narutoverse.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 8, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi stood still against Kakashi, and used one jutsu at a time (suiton and clone feint.) Then gave kudos to Kakashi for being able to see his seal speed with his Sharingan.​


Actually he did move to stab Kakashi in the back which was only a suiton clone, then Kakashi proceeded to save Kurenai from the exploding bunshin(no bunshin feinting involved at fucking all)

1

And Itachi up to that point, didn't even impress Asuma. Kakashi reacted to everything Itachi had and had to deviate to save Kurenai. No matter Itachi's hand seal speed or whatever, fact remains that Kakashi had no problem reacting to every attack by Itachi.





> Against Bee, Itachi was aggressively using shunshin to flank Bee by surprise and unloaded weapons, genjutsu, and fireballs all simultaneously. It was much more aggressive.





> He's never used genjutsu and fireballs at the same time, and I believe Bee reacted and defended against everything Itachi used against him including genjutsu(and you will say Itachi told him it was a genjutsu, well Bee is a very experienced ninja who has faced genjutsu before and has a sure fire way to break, also it wasn't a subtle genjutsu). And then proceeded to pressure Itachi back and retreat to use Amaterasu, against Naruto whom was having trouble with cerebrus. Funny uh how instead of attacking Bee(whom he could(can't though) kill) whom he was facing he decided to use MS against someone who wasn't even fighting him...dishonorable and pathetic...notice how he did that with Kakashi and Kurenai as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## IchLiebe (Jan 8, 2015)

Almondsand said:


> Itachi outsmarts a lot of the narutoverse.



Not everyone in the Narutoverse is as dense as Naruto.

Kakashi has shown time after time to have better intelligence than Kakashi, even in the midst of battle and on the fly. And made the strategy to defeat the final Big Bad. And got a special mention by the So6P himself.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 8, 2015)

Don't see why you all would still debate this after the end of the manga.

We've seen: base Itachi struggles to get past a shinobi of Kakashi's calibre. That is why he used the MS the first time and lost the second time when he could not.
Let us not forget, a shinobi on a higher calibre than base Kakashi (base Bee) made base Itachi run away and retort to, you guessed it, the MS. Base Itachi would have been stomped by Bee.

So from what the manga tells us: base Kakashi can beat base Itachi with moderate difficulty. Base Bee stomps base Itachi.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 8, 2015)

Base Itachi?

Probably Asuma.

If we push it maybe Kakuzu. Maybe.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 8, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Let us not forget, a shinobi on a higher calibre than base Kakashi (base Bee) made base Itachi run away



Bee had help from Itachi (two warnings,) Nagato (a warning,) Hachibi (genjutsu), Naruto (intercepted Itachi for Bee,) Samehada (katon, shuriken deflection) and Hachibi (partial transformations.)

In the 80 seconds he fought Itachi.

Itachi wasn't scuffed, even when Naruto was helping Bee attack, and Bee tried to attack Itachi from behind. Yet both Samehada and Bee, depsite all the help given to them, were burned and yelped. 

So yeah, Base Itachi had the upperhand on Bee. Bee being unable to hurt Itachi in kenjutsu when all Itachi had was a kunai to defend against the 8-sword style doesn't help your point at all.​


Alex Payne said:


> All that was done with Sharingan. Your post have Kage-lvl without Sharingan. He is Kage-lvl without _Mangekyo_ Sharingan. But he still needs 3-tomoe to tackle them big boys.



Alright, I want to come back to this. I think with his superior speed, a katana, shuriken and kunai, clone/jutsu speed, and finger genjutsu, Itachi would still be able to take on most low-end Kage.

When you think about it, the Sharingan only buffs his already impressive reflexes and insight, and gives him a less-sneaky avenue for genjutsu for a few seconds of paralytic opportunities.

For a ninja like Taka Sasuke, it's huge, because Sasuke doesn't have other methods of genjutsu, is relatively weak in taijutsu, and had rattled sanity and impaired insight at that point in the manga.

But instead of covering weaknesses, the Sharingan just diversifies Itachi's strengths. I don't think its what would make-or-break Itachi's chances against low Kage levels.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 8, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Bee had help from Itachi (two warnings,) Nagato (a warning,) Hachibi (genjutsu), Samehada (katon, shuriken deflection) and Hachibi (partial transformations) in the minute he fought Itachi.
> 
> Itachi wasn't scuffed, even when Naruto was helping Bee attacked and Bee tried to attack Itachi from behind. Yet both Samehada and Bee, depsite all the help given to them, were burned and yelped.
> 
> So yeah, Base Itachi was owning Bee. Bee being unable to hurt Itachi in kenjutsu when all Itachi had was a kunai to defend against the 8-sword style doesn't help your point at all.​



Itachi had help with Bee going all out with 7 swords? 
Hachibi is part of Bee's power as a Jinchuriki. Trying to cite the Hachibi in the manner you did screams "reaching". That's like saying Itachi needed the Sharingan's help each time.

Itachi wouldn't be when both parties weren't going all out.

Base Itachi wasn't owning Bee; your definition of "owning" another character is *very* broad going by your post. Itachi was running away because his skill, even with a kunai, wasn't good enough to help him out.

Base Itachi would be slaughtered without help on his part. The "help" you cited was Bee being caught up with Nagato's attack. No Nagato means no "help" you you call it.



> Alright, I want to come back to this. I think with his superior speed, a katana, shuriken and kunai, clone/jutsu speed, and finger genjutsu, Itachi would still be able to take on most low-end Kage.
> 
> When you think about it, the Sharingan only buffs his already impressive reflexes and insight, and gives him a less-sneaky avenue for genjutsu for a few seconds of paralytic opportunities.
> 
> ...



God knows where you get this "his superior [blah blah blah]" stuff from. Facts are facts: base Kakashi coped with all of base Itachi's attacks. Base Itachi then goes to MS to win; the fight he lacked the MS he lost. 

His reflexes and insight weren't enough to help him against base Bee and base Kakashi. That's with the Sharingan; without the Sharingan aiding Itachi, these two guys would rape Itachi.

I'm not really interested in the other exaggerated Itachi attributes you cited because they're just that: exaggerations. Itachi's strengths was really just the Sharingan, his most just power. Without its enhanced form he showed us he's incapable of beating base Bee and base Kakashi.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 8, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> His reflexes and insight weren't enough to help him against base Bee and base Kakashi. That's with the Sharingan; without the Sharingan aiding Itachi, these two guys would rape Itachi.



Neither were able to scratch Itachi. So that's a leap.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hachibi is part of Bee's power as a Jinchuriki.



Are partial transformations a base power? Idc.​


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 8, 2015)

I can't envision most kages fairing any better than Orochimaru did against magen kasegui. Some of them can evade dodge tank or heal any damage they would suffer while paralyzed or just evade genjutsu. Those that can would be in the minority though. Itachi's base genjutsu + skills is enough to potentially defeat some mid kages levels imo.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Neither were able to scratch Itachi. So that's a leap.​



Itachi was defeated the second time against Kakashi. 

Itachi couldn't be scratched; he learnt his base was no match for Kakashi hence MS. He learnt his base was no match for Bee, so he ran.



> Are partial transformations a base power? Idc.​



They are things base Bee can do. Of course, with his base power, Bee made Itachi run away.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 9, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi was defeated the second time against Kakashi.



The 30% clone that Naruto finished? 

Kakashi had plenty of time to scratch it himself, and didn't.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Of course, with his base power, Bee made Itachi run away.



More like Itachi realized they needed saving. (Hence activating Koto.)


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The 30% clone that Naruto finished?
> 
> Kakashi had several minutes to scratch it, and didn't.



Kakashi chose to let Naruto deliver the final blow; the real Kakashi could have made his way to attack if it was one on one. 



> More like Itachi got bored and decided to make Naruto barf up a crow.
> 
> After hurting Bee and Samehada and being unhurt himself.



Horrible argument. It also doesn't help that you cling onto a scenario where Bee and Naruto weren't going all out; you dismiss the scenario where Bee did go all out.

Itachi was too weak to handle Naruto and base Bee, so he was forced to use MS. 

FYI when your argument involves exaggerating minor details and excluding the other details, that generally means you have no leg to stand on. Looking at the quality of the argument and the regurgitation of points disproved ITT and well before, I'm not expecting much. 

I'm waiting for something credible, not a rehash of old disproved arguments.


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## Duhul10 (Mar 8, 2015)

scenario 1 :  asuma, maybe old hiruzen

scenario 2 :  simple genjutsu doesn't change too much, only an idiot would look in  uchiha's eyes if he knows he cannot escape genjutstu. I will say kakashi pre-pain arc


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## Deer Lord (Mar 8, 2015)

Using edo feats or living feats?


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## Ersa (Mar 8, 2015)

Without MS I'd peg the strongest person he could take out would be Tsunade. He'd need to catch her in genjutsu to disable regeneration then behead her before Katsuyu comes out so it would be a fairly even match. That being said Tsunade rarely uses her boss summons on a single opponent, in the Sannin brawl it was due to the other boss summons coming out and against Pain it was because she needed to protect the village.


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## Veracity (Mar 9, 2015)

Except Tsuande is known as the " Slug Princess " and was the one who initially opt'd for a boss summoning first against Oro. Given how heavily reliant the other Sannin members are on their summonings as well as the fact that tsuande is essentially a white mage and Katusyu is a healing center - it would be dumb for Tsuande not to summon Katsuyu.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 9, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> S1: Under these circumstances, Itachi might be able to take Mifune or base Killer B (no partial Bijuu manifestations). He'd have a great deal of trouble with them, though, and he might not be able to win. Itachi's victory would be more certain over guys like Darui, Kitsuchi, and part I Kakashi.
> 
> S2: Itachi trashed Orochimaru with close to zero effort, so the Sannin and anyone comparable would fall short of the mark. I can't think of anyone stronger than those three who would be susceptible to his Genjutsu, though. For lack of a more accurate substitute,* I might just have to say the Sannin are the strongest Itachi can beat with MS restricted*. Sasori and Deidara both have counters. Anyone stronger is either a Doujutsu user or some kind of monster (like the 3rd Raikage).
> 
> ...



Just because of that one scene where Itachi used his genjutsu on Orochimaru doesn't mean jack. Oro isn't perfect and he probably didn't analyze itachi enough or kishi is a moron. All 3 sannin can instantly summon boss summons. It doesn't matter if itachi is a genjutsu master if he has multiple opponents visual genjutsu doesn't mean jack.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 9, 2015)

He can control boss summons with genjutsu.


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## Veracity (Mar 9, 2015)

Honestly it's almost laughable to think that 3 tomoe Itachi is > to the Sannin just cause of his feats against an arrogant oro. Last time I checked Itachi needed his entire arsenal to stalemate Jirayia who is Oros equal...and that's outright a statement from Kishi himself that Itachi and Jirayia are in the same ballpark.  So that outright negates that bullshit that some Itachi fanboys think is factual .


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> He can control boss summons with genjutsu.



Don't you need a ton of chakra for that? Itachi isn't known for his stamina. The only people who have ever been known to control a tailed beast is Madara and Obito. Madara alone has a godly amount of chakra compared to other people and Obito was Hashirama dna enhanced.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 9, 2015)

Nah man, Shikaku considered it possible that Itachi was controlling thousands of ninja over hundreds of miles instead of it being the White Zetsu ambushes. So genjutsu is chakra-efficient.​


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 9, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Honestly it's almost laughable to think that 3 tomoe Itachi is > to the Sannin just cause of his feats against an arrogant oro. Last time I checked Itachi needed his entire arsenal to stalemate Jirayia who is Oros equal...and that's outright a statement from Kishi himself that Itachi and Jirayia are in the same ballpark.  So that outright negates that bullshit that some Itachi fanboys think is factual .



Not to mention Itachi wouldn't last as long as Orochimaru and Jiraiya would against Pain.

The pretty boy Uchiha does a magic drink against Orochimaru and that automatically makes him stronger then all 3 sanin 

If you think that is hilarious some dude made a thread about itachi vs all 3 sanin and many people were arguing for itachi to win medium difficulty LOL.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Nah man, Shikaku considered it possible that Itachi (and only Itachi) was controlling thousands of ninja over hundreds of miles instead of it being the White Zetsu ambushes.
> 
> So it doesn't take a lot of chakra to manipulate with genjutsu.​



I don't ever recall that happeneing. Care to show me a panel?


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## Sadgoob (Mar 9, 2015)

When Shikaku got wind of ambushes occurring across all the war fronts:



Ao argues not even Itachi could control thousands of ninja over hundreds of miles but that still leaves a pretty impressive range. And they jumped to Itachi's name, because presumably Itachi's the best at mass genjutsu control.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> When Shikaku got wind of ambushes occurring across all the war fronts:
> 
> 
> 
> Ao argues not even Itachi could control thousands of ninja over hundreds of miles but that still leaves a pretty impressive range. And they jumped to Itachi's name, because presumably Itachi's the best at mass genjutsu control.



They had no idea what was going on because it was white zetzu. Itachi was only a doubtful quick theory they came up with because they had no other intel.

Realistically Itachi cannot do anything close to what was happening. The best thing itachi could do is cast a genjutsu spell on some one and then make them go do it from miles away like what he did with jiraiya and that girl early in the manga.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 9, 2015)

Point is, they said Itachi. Which means that controlling entities with genjutsu isn't a matter of chakra amount, or else Itachi would not be their Theory A for whoever was controlling thousands.

And yeah, Itachi can't work to that scale, but you're also undercutting him, as he very clearly has a reputation for mass genjutsu control while being undetectable to groups of sensors.​


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Point is, they said Itachi. Which means that controlling entities with genjutsu isn't a matter of chakra amount, or else Itachi would not be their Theory A for whoever was controlling thousands.
> 
> And yeah, Itachi can't work to that scale, but you're also undercutting him, as he very clearly has a reputation for mass genjutsu control while being undetectable to groups of sensors.​



If what you say is true then why didn't Itachi genjutsu his clan into being submissive lap dogs for the hidden leaf high ups?

Oh thats right he can't.

Koto was supposed to be the absolute pinnacle of Genjutsu and it only works on one person. Again you are blowing what they said way out of proportions that's like saying we know jeff is good at calculus and only jeff and we don't know who built this time machine but it must be jeff because he is good at calculus.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 9, 2015)

He can't control a clan of Sharinan (i.e. highly genjutsu resistant) users indefinitely, so obviously you're right and I'm wrong.​


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## DavyChan (Mar 9, 2015)

Kakashi (pre bullshit power up shit)


Sc. 2: Sakura (lol he wishes)
Tsunade maybe. lol. im keeding.
4th Gate Gai maybe.


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## Blu-ray (Mar 10, 2015)

Scenario 1: Without genjutsu I don't see him taking on anyone descent. Asuma or part 1 Kakashi most likely.

Scenario 2: The strongest he can beat would be the strongest person who has no counter to Paralysis genjutsu+decapitation. Any Sannin would be a safe estimate. Plus their dependent on Summons which are susceptible to genjutsu control too.


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## Icegaze (Mar 10, 2015)

i am not a tsunade fan but  
3 tomoe itachi isnt beating tsunade at all 

like common!!! i doubt his genjutsu can knock her out. would be dissapinted if it could 

ill say strongest he can beat is around chiyo, or asuma level, darui and the likes

in either scenario


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