# People Itachi can't beat



## Rob (Mar 6, 2014)

Knowledge: All 
Conditions: Healthy Itachi

Scenario 1: No Koto
Scenario 2: No Restrictions 

Been rewatching Part II, and just got passed Itachi vs. Sauce, so I was wondering who Itachi just can not beat. 

*Off the top of my head, I'd say:*
-Hashi
-Madara
-Obito
-Healthy Nagato 
-Current Nardo 
-Current Sausage
-6 Paths of Pain

Anyone else? 

Also, I'm horrible with Naruto power-levels, so I'm very confused as to where to even rank a lot of current characters, due to that stupidly-written unnecessary Power-jump...


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## N4GAmbush (Mar 6, 2014)

Waiting for someone to say Minato...


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## Kyu (Mar 6, 2014)

Rikudo Madara
Juubito
Hashirama
Edo Minato
Naruto
Sasuke

All rip him a new asshole.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 6, 2014)

Add Edo Minato, SM Kabuto, Orochimaru (edo tensei) and 8th gate Gai (just based on the hype he's got with it). That's probably it for the people who can definitively beat him. There are others who can possibly beat him, but he can also beat them.


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## trance (Mar 6, 2014)

Battledome Tsunade.


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## Trojan (Mar 6, 2014)

Naruto, Minato, obito, madara, hashirama, sasuke, nagato, pain, kabuto, oro (with edo), jiraiaya, gaara, onoki, 3rd Raikage, A, B, current kakashi, gated Guy, Mu, hype Hiruzen...etc


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## Rob (Mar 6, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Naruto, Minato, obito, madara, hashirama, sasuke, nagato, pain, kabuto, oro (with edo), jiraiaya, *gaara*, onoki, 3rd Raikage, A, B, current kakashi, gated Guy, Mu, hype Hiruzen...etc



.............


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## Trojan (Mar 6, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> .............



What? 
everyone knows that Gaara beats itachi. U_U
they may be around the same level, but Gaara is a bad match up for him. U_U


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## Turrin (Mar 6, 2014)

- Rikudo
- Kaguya
- Hashirama
- Madara
- Obito
- Nagato
- Kabuto
- Naruto
- Sasuke
- Orochimaru
- Kushina
- Minato
- Prime Hiruzen
- Spiral

List would be longer, if it's characters that have better odds of winning, those are just simply the ones I see Itachi standing no chance at beating, at this point. Also there are some other more iffy ones, but I didn't add them because it's hard to quantify what Healthy Itachi is like for sure.


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## Rob (Mar 6, 2014)

Like I said, I'm shit with Naruto-power-levels, but Gaara beating him just seemed.... Odd.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 6, 2014)

minato, kabuto, nagato, 6 paths of pain, hashirama, madara, sasuke, naruto, obito ya know people like that.

gaara, A, kakashi, guy and orochimaru also have a big chance of beating him if they play their cards correctly.


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## Bonly (Mar 6, 2014)

Depends what you're looking for. Theoretically Itachi can beat and kill/seal almost everyone in the manga with Bijuu and Juubi Jin's pretty being the exceptions more or less. As for those he can actually kill/beat more times then not  in a fight is another thing. 

As for the latter of who can beat Itachi more times then not or have a good chance like a 50/50 shot, I'd have to say:

Tobi
Nagato
Naruto
Madara
Orochi
Hashi
Kabuto
Minato
Sasuke
Gai(50/50)
Kakashi(50/50)
Jiraiya(50/50)
Muu(50/50)

That's all that comes to mind as of now. There's prolly more that can beat him more times then not or give him a 50/50 shot but I can't think of them as of now.


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## ueharakk (Mar 6, 2014)

People who would beat itachi pretty much 10/10
JJ Madara
JJ Obito
Madara (rinnegan/EMS)
Obito (rinnegan/pre-rinnegan)
Neo pain
Nagato
Naruto (BSM/BM/KCM/SM)
Sasuke (EMS)
Minato
Hashirama
Orochimaru w/ edo
Kabuto w/ edo


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 6, 2014)

People that beat him more often than not?

Any form of Madara
Any form of Hashirama
Obito (Jin and Rinnegan)
Naruto (BSM and BM)
Sasuke (EMS)
Healthy Nagato
Edo Minato (Bijuu Mode)
Orochimaru w/ Edo Tensei
Kabuto w/ Edo Tensei


That's all.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 6, 2014)

This is the complete list of people Itachi can't beat:


*Spoiler*: __ 



**


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## Trojan (Mar 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> This is the complete list of people Itachi can't beat:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Even Tayuya?


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## Punished Pathos (Mar 6, 2014)

Healthy Kimimaro


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## Nikushimi (Mar 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - Orochimaru
> - Kushina





Bonly said:


> Orochi





ueharakk said:


> Orochimaru w/ edo



When did the NBD become such a complete canon-defiant shithole?

Orochimaru gets raped no difficulty (with or without Edo Tensei) and Kushina would be lucky to do even THAT well.



New Folder said:


> Even Tayuya?



Tayuya doesn't even have joke hype as an Itachi counter; she's fucking fodder unless Kabuto is Sageifying her.


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## Punished Pathos (Mar 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> This is the complete list of people Itachi can't beat:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I can't open the spoiler.
Surely, Healthy Kimimaro is somewhere in your list.


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## Veracity (Mar 7, 2014)

Sage Jirayia
Sage Naruto
Sage Kabuto
Tobirama
Sasuke(current)
Madara( all)
Hashirama( all)
KCM/BM/BSM Naruto
Obito( all except child form)
Minato( all)
Pain
Nagato
Prime Hirzuen
Sage and his mother.
Juubi
Kurama
Gated Gai
Kakashi( Kamui)
Oro(Hashirama DNA)


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## Bonly (Mar 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> When did the NBD become such a complete canon-defiant shithole?
> 
> Orochimaru gets raped no difficulty (with or without Edo Tensei) and Kushina would be lucky to do even THAT well.



Current Edo Tensei shits on Itachi, get over it.


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## Trojan (Mar 7, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Sage Jirayia
> Sage Naruto
> Sage Kabuto
> Tobirama
> ...



Current Yamato with the Buddha (I think he's the one inside the zetsu XD)
Tsunade and Sakura with Katsuyu
Gaara, A, B, 3rd Raikage, Mu, Onoki can beat him as well
perhaps even Mei if she started with the mist jutsu. 
Kinkaku and Ginkaku have a great hype as well. 
you did not mention Hagoromo's sons as well. @.@

seriously there are a huge number of people who can defeat that guy. However, things may be different if he has backup as he always does. U_U


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## Bonly (Mar 7, 2014)

New Folder said:


> However, things may be different *if he has backup as he always does.* U_U



Not when he's fighting Jiraiya


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## Trojan (Mar 7, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Not when he's fighting Jiraiya



perhaps since Jiraiya solos obito. :ho 


so theoretically if itachi want any chance of defeating Jiraiya he needs JJ madara. 
and since the Juubi's host is still effected by senjutsu, Frog Song can still probably solos. :ignoramus


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## Rocky (Mar 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Orochimaru gets raped no difficulty (with or without Edo Tensei)




If he can auto-pilot the Edo Tensei, like Kabuto did, then even the mindless (as long as they're still "near full power") versions of the Hokage tear Itachi to shreds. Orochimaru can just hide while it happens. 

It isn't really a win for Orochimaru, just his zombies.



> Kushina would be lucky to do even THAT well.




I agree, but to be fair to Turrin, we've never seen Kushina fight.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 7, 2014)

Chayoth Ha Qadesh said:


> I can't open the spoiler.
> Surely, Healthy Kimimaro is somewhere in your list.



No, but maybe Super Buu's cheek vagina could give him a decent fight.



Bonly said:


> Current Edo Tensei shits on Itachi, get over it.



Totsuka, GG.

And Orochimaru would never get a chance to use it, anyway; we basically saw what happened when he tried.



Rocky said:


> If he can auto-pilot the Edo Tensei, like Kabuto did, then even the mindless (as long as they're still "near full power") versions of the Hokage tear Itachi to shreds. Orochimaru can just hide while it happens.



Orochimaru won't even get his hands together before Itachi takes one off.

And the Hokage all get raped by Itachi if they're not totally free; Minato and Tobirama couldn't use Hiraishin at first, remember?

By the time they're out and about, Itachi will practically have skewered them all.



> It isn't really a win for Orochimaru, just his zombies.



Orochimaru can't win.



> I agree, but to be fair to Turrin, we've never seen Kushina fight.



Uzumaki chains + standard Jounin-level physical stats.

And maybe tailed forms.

No counter for Amaterasu or Genjutsu.


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## Veracity (Mar 7, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Current Yamato with the Buddha (I think he's the one inside the zetsu XD)
> Tsunade and Sakura with Katsuyu
> Gaara, A, B, 3rd Raikage, Mu, Onoki can beat him as well
> perhaps even Mei if she started with the mist jutsu.
> ...



If Yamato has his Moukton abilities plus that giant statue that can fire off 5 infinities simultaneously , and has the speed to even catch Ay, then yeah I agree.

If Tsunade has 10% Katsuyu then I agree also , as AMA would essentially be negated.

Gaara truly does have the current feats to win, but I think hype favors Itachi more. So I'm 50/50 on that. The ones in my list were like 100% wins though.

Ay can't breach Sussano, but Itachi can't hit him, so idk how that battle would go lol. If this is sick Itachi and Ay has knowledge on Amaterasu, then he outlasts and wins decisively. If it's healthy Itachi then I favor Itachi due to hype.

Sandaime Kage isn't fast enough to dodge Amaterasu. If he can live with it around is body, he wins. If he can't, then Itachi wins.

I could careless about Muu and his abilities are too broken. But considering he and Onnoki together lost to a casual MS Madara, then I believe Itachi has the hype to win.

Onnoki vs Itachi is 60/40 in Itachis favor IMO.

Mei hasn't been indicated to be as strong as Itachi. Kishi wanks Itachi. Id have to go with him.

K and G just didn't seem to live up to tier hype. I think them "defeating" Tobirama had a shit ton of factors that aren't taken into consideration.

Forgot about the sages sons. They obviously rape.


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## Bonly (Mar 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Totsuka, GG.



Hashi GG.



> And Orochimaru would never get a chance to use it, anyway; we basically saw what happened when he tried.



Do you have proof that he actually tried that before hand or are you just making it up?


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## Rocky (Mar 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Orochimaru won't even get his hands together before Itachi takes one off.




Maybe if the starting distance was a foot. Otherwise? lol no.



> And the Hokage all get raped by Itachi if they're not totally free; Minato and Tobirama couldn't use Hiraishin at first, remember?




I though that was because Orochimaru didn't let them?



> By the time they're out and about, Itachi will practically have skewered them all.




Er, how? They don't long to come activate. That's why Obito was intimidated by Kabuto's Edo. If they were all fodder, Tobi would have just went on a Kamui spree. 

Orochimaru can't win.





> Uzumaki chains + standard Jounin-level physical stats.
> 
> And maybe tailed forms.
> 
> No counter for Amaterasu or Genjutsu.




....and Fuinjustu mastery, which just sounds hax. Kyuubi-binding chains are also a problem for Itachi's Susano'o, but you're right, she doesn't have counters to Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 7, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Hashi GG.



No counter for Totsuka, GG.



> Do you have proof that he actually tried that before hand or are you just making it up?



He tried to put his hands together in the exact same manner as he does when executing Edo Tensei; regardless of whether or not that's what he was trying to do, he couldn't have done it even if he had wanted to.



Rocky said:


> Maybe if the starting distance was a foot. Otherwise? lol no.



Itachi cockblocked Orochimaru from several meters away.



> I though that was because Orochimaru didn't let them?



Yeah, he had to loosen the binding on Edo Tensei.

And if he does that, they have no reason to fight Itachi for him.



> Er, how? They don't long to come activate. That's why Obito was intimidated by Kabuto's Edo. If they were all fodder, Tobi would have just went on a Kamui spree.



Obito is a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).


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## Bonly (Mar 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> No counter for Totsuka, GG.



Killing Itachi is a good counter, GG.



> He tried to put his hands together in the exact same manner as he does when executing Edo Tensei;



Ahh so no actual proof and it's just an assumption you decided to treat like a fact in said post. Thanks. 



> regardless of whether or not that's what he was trying to do, he couldn't have done it even if he had wanted to.



Your opinion on whether you think he could or couldn't have done it back then is irrelevant to the actual question I asked you, which you answered above.


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## Rocky (Mar 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi cockblocked Orochimaru from several meters away.




When Orochimaru was staked down by Itachi's Genjustu...



> Yeah, he had to loosen the binding on Edo Tensei.
> 
> And if he does that, they have no reason to fight Itachi for him.




I don't know what "loosen the binding means." 

Like I said, he could just put them on autopilot, like Kabuto did will all of his (and they remained at full power).



> Obito is a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).




It's a fictional character man, so that kind of counter argument is just a waste of my time. If you don't like the character, whatever, but don't ignore the fact that he was one of the most powerful Shinobi in the world, capable of going toe to toe with people stronger than Itachi.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 7, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Killing Itachi is a good counter, GG.



Hashirama can't do that before Itachi seals him.

He won't even get out of the coffin, assuming Orochimaru ever manages to summon it, which would contradict his canon inability to do what's necessary to make it happen.



> Ahh so no actual proof and it's just an assumption you decided to treat like a fact in said post. Thanks.



Because it's basically true irrespective of Orochimaru's intentions.

He can't use Edo Tensei if he can't put his hands together, and he couldn't do that.



> Your opinion on whether you think he could or couldn't have done it back then is irrelevant to the actual question I asked you, which you answered above.



But all that really matters is that Orochimaru can't execute Edo Tensei because Itachi already proved capable of interfering with the necessary mechanism of its activation.



Rocky said:


> When Orochimaru was staked down by Itachi's Genjustu...



...Yeah.



> I don't know what "loosen the binding means."
> 
> Like I said, he could just put them on autopilot, like Kabuto did will all of his (and they remained at full power).



They were on auto-pilot and couldn't use Hiraishin because Orochimaru was controlling their actions (like Kabuto did when he forced Itachi to attack Naruto).

If Oro isn't controlling them, then they can just say "nuts to this" and not attack Itachi.



> It's a fictional character man, so that kind of counter argument is just a waste of my time. If you don't like the character, whatever, but don't ignore the fact that he was one of the most powerful Shinobi in the world, capable of going toe to toe with people stronger than Itachi.



Serious answer: Obito was intimidated by the Madara Edo Tensei and the implications of Kabuto having it. Later on, he threatened Kabuto directly to his face that there would be consequences for stabbing him in the back, so I don't think Obito was unwilling to fight him if need be; it just wasn't in his interest to do it.

Mind you, Kabuto was significantly stronger than Orochimaru at that time. I would be surprised if Obito failed to recognize that.


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## StickaStick (Mar 7, 2014)

It would take a while to list everyone Itachi either can't beat or has unfavorable/debatable odds (i.e., less than 50%) of beating. Really this War Arc has not been kind to Itachi in terms of his spot on the tier ranks.


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## Ghost (Mar 7, 2014)

Hashi, Madz, Obito, Nardo, Sauce

he can beat Nagato if the conditions are in his favor.


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## ARGUS (Mar 7, 2014)

if we are talking about healthy alive itachi then he cant beat these guys
Madara, Hashirama, Naruto, Obito, Nagato, Minato, Kabuto, Tobirama, Sasuke, Pein, Killer Bee (50/50)


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## Joakim3 (Mar 7, 2014)

*People that he loses to 110% of the time*
Madara
Hashirama
Obito
RM Naruto+
Nagato
EMS Sasuke
SM Kabuto (w/ Edo's)
Orochimaru (w/ Edo's)
Minato

*Fights than can go 50/50*
Gai 
Killer B
Tobirama
Kakashi
Raikagenaut
Ei
etc..


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## Ersa (Mar 7, 2014)

*People who Edo Itachi can't beat*
Edo Minato
Sasuke
Naruto 
Madara
Hashirama
Rinnegan Obito

There are people like Nagato and KCM Naruto who beat Edo Itachi more times then not but to say he can't beat them is wrong.

*People who Sick Itachi can't beat*
Minato
Sasuke
Naruto 
Madara
Hashirama
Obito
KCM Naruto
Nagato


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 7, 2014)

Juudara Juubito Edo Minato Naruto, Sasuke

Itachi can defeat guys like Obito, Minato, Nagato and Kabuto.



Nikushimi said:


> When did the NBD become such a complete canon-defiant shithole?



Most people in BD are bandwagoners. They hop on anything that is new.

Remember  the arguments "KCM Naruto can taijutsu blitz Itachi" "MS Sasuke > Itachi" etc.


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 7, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Naruto, Minato, obito, madara, hashirama, sasuke, nagato, pain, kabuto, oro (with edo), jiraiaya, gaara, onoki, 3rd Raikage, A, B, current kakashi, gated Guy, Mu, hype Hiruzen...etc



I COMPLETELY AGREE. Anyone can say Gaara won't win but most likely he will.


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Juudara Juubito Edo Minato Naruto, Sasuke
> 
> Itachi can defeat guys like Obito, Minato, Nagato and Kabuto.
> 
> ...



Excuse me? Did you say Minato and Nagato AND KABUTO?
Kabuto > Itachi
Please tell me you're joking.


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 7, 2014)

In no particular order:
Madara
Hashirama
Obito
Kabuto
Minato
Tobirama
Naruto
Sauske
Nagato

has a chance to efeat him or push him to his limits:
Jiraiya - Itachi should win more times then not
Muu -  IMO Muu is superior to Itachi
kakashi
gaara - Could push him to his limits
Onoki

unkown:
current orochimaru - hashi dna upgrades(not counting his 4 hokage edo Tensei)


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## Lawrence777 (Mar 7, 2014)

> People who Edo Itachi can't beat
> Edo Minato
> _Sasuke
> Naruto
> ...


This would be similar to my assessment basically.  Killer Bee's = Itachi in a general sense but Itachi's a pretty bad matchup for him IMO. I'd also rather err on the side of saying Itachi needs to be healthy or an Edo to beat SM Kabuto


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 7, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> This would be similar to my assessment basically.  Killer Bee's = Itachi in a general sense but Itachi's a pretty bad matchup for him IMO. I'd also rather err on the side of saying Itachi needs to be healthy or an Edo to beat SM Kabuto



I think Itachi being "healthy" or an Edo would not make a difference in defeating kabuto. It was pretty obvious that kishi implied kabuto to be on another tier then the brothers but more so portrayed teamwork > power. Such as with Nagato in the previous battle


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## Lawrence777 (Mar 7, 2014)

I think if you analyze the battle without Sasuke present you'd see it was very close between just Itachi and Kabuto. Kabuto cut him in half at the end, so Itachi would have died, but the bushin he created before his death would of still locked him in Izanami afterward.


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## Trojan (Mar 7, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> *People who Edo Itachi can't beat*
> Edo Minato
> Sasuke
> Naruto
> ...



of course since Naruto does not have sealing jutsu, so he can't defeat edo itachi, sasuke, and hashirama as well can't defeat the ET. That however does not mean that they are not stronger than him.


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## Vice (Mar 7, 2014)

Definite
Any form of Hashirama
Any form of Madara
Any form of Obito
Naruto KCM and up
EMS Sasuke
Nagato
Minato
Tobirama
Kabuto
Paths of Pain
Paths of Tobi
Current Orochimaru
Current Kakashi
Current Guy

50/50
Sage Mode Naruto
MS Sasuke
Killer Bee
Jiraiya
Pre Senju healthy Orochimaru
Danzo
Muu
Onoki
Nidaime Mizukage
Saindaime Raikage
Gaara in a desert
A


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## Senjuclan (Mar 7, 2014)

*PEOPLE WHO WILL ALWAYS DEFEAT HIM*

Rikudou Sennin
Uchiha Madara (any incarnation)
Uchiha Obito (any incarnation)
Senju Hashirama
Current Uzumaki Naruto

*PEOPLE WHO WILL DEFEAT HIM MORE OFTEN THAN NOT*

Uzumaki Nagato
Current Sasuke
Namikaze Minato
Senju Tobirama
Sage Mode Kabuto

*PEOPLE WITH A 50% CHANCE OF DEFEATING HIM *

Maito Gai
Hatake Kakashi
Sage Mode Jiraiya


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## Almondsand (Mar 7, 2014)

Once I see Edo Minato and a list longer than 4 names... I automatically assume these people are trolling and/or understimate Itachi.

I say people he possible can't beat are:

Hashirama, Madara, JuuDara, Juubito.  

I am not even taking in to account this is healthy Itachi because healthy Itachi is a misonmer.


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## Rob (Mar 7, 2014)

^Maybe people with lists shorter than 4 names are just wanking him


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## Almondsand (Mar 7, 2014)

^well I have 4 names.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 7, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> ^well I have 4 names.



Well now that you have appointed yourself the barometer for reason, we all know who wanks Itachi and who does not


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## Rob (Mar 7, 2014)

So you don't see a Nagato, Sauce or Nardo beating him?


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## J★J♥ (Mar 7, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Like I said, I'm shit with Naruto-power-levels, but Gaara beating him just seemed.... Odd.



Gaara dragged Madara out of his Susano'o


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## Weapon (Mar 7, 2014)

* Living Itachi * Loses To:

- Hagoromo [Gets stomped by]
- Kaguya-hime [Gets stomped by]
- Uchiha Obito [Gets stomped by]
- Uchiha Madara [Gets stomped by]
- Uchiha Sasuke
- Uzumaki Naruto
- Hoshigaki Kisame [SH100 + SHM]
- Yakushi Kabuto [Gets stomped by]
- Namikaze Minato [Living]
- Sarutobi Hiruzen ["Prime"]
- Uzumaki Kushina 
- Senju Hashirama [Gets stomped by]
- Senju Tobirama
- Nagato

*Living Itachi * Even / Tough Matchups / 5050

- Gated[7] Maito Gai
- Muu
- Killer Bee
- Oonoki (Prime)
- Shimura Danzo
- Jiraiya (SM + M/P)
- Hatake Kakashi
- Sasori


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## Kai (Mar 7, 2014)

Not counting Edo Tensei incarnates or the jutsu.

Madara
Tobi/Obito
Hashirama
Naruto
Sasuke
Nagato
Minato

Either Way:
Tobirama: Massive Uchiha experience, comparable Shunshin, reflexes, both highly intelligent.
Kakashi: MS speed: Kamui vs. Amaterasu/Susano'o
Kabuto: Put Kabuto here because I do not believe he can enter Sage Mode while Itachi wants to kill him. If Itachi spares him into SM, Kabuto obviously dominates.

Next toughest fights on his level:
Onoki
Killer Bee
Danzo


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## Vice (Mar 7, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Once I see Edo Minato and a list longer than 4 names... I automatically assume these people are trolling and/or understimate Itachi.
> 
> I say people he possible can't beat are:
> 
> ...



Lol.

Fanboy gonna fanboy.


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## Garcher (Mar 7, 2014)

Itachi has the potential to beat everyone with his susanoo


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## J★J♥ (Mar 7, 2014)

Considering that Itachi is constantly bleeding from all holes. Hidan.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 7, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> Itachi has the potential to beat everyone with his susanoo



And Oonoki has the potential to beat anyone with his jinton and yet he got schooled by guruguru. Potential does not mean anything. 

Anyone who can dunk has the potential to dunk on anyone else but chances they would actually dunk on great defenders who are taller than them are generally nil


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 7, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Excuse me? Did you say Minato and Nagato AND KABUTO?
> Kabuto > Itachi
> Please tell me you're joking.



The Op uses the word "can" so I believe Itachi can defeat those shinobi. But by no means I do imply that he is stronger than them or he will defeat them all the time. I am saying that the chances of him defeating them are there.

The ones I mentioned which he "can't" are the ones Itachi has no shot against.

On a side note, you are ill informed. Itachi > Kabuto as shown in the manga.


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## Vice (Mar 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> On a side note, you are ill informed. Itachi > Kabuto as shown in the manga.



Itachi being on a TEAM with an EMS user would not suggest that he's > Kabuto in any way.


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## StickaStick (Mar 7, 2014)

Not to mention if Kabuto brings Edo Mads to the battle field both Itachi and the Sauce are sniffin daisies.


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## Vice (Mar 7, 2014)

The Format said:


> Not to mention if Kabuto brings Edo Mads to the battle field both Itachi and the Sauce are sniffin daisies.



Kabuto doesn't even need Madara. Without Sasuke there Phantom Snake Chains solos as shown in the manga.


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## Almondsand (Mar 7, 2014)

You never see a thread like this for anyone else so yeah I'm saying only

Madara, Hashirama, Juudara, Juubito are the only ones he possibly can't beat. 

Naruto always gets owned by his genjutsu so do Sasuke.. and Sasuke couldn't follow his movements when they were against Kabuto in a non-combative stipulation battle.

I'm basing most of what I'm saying off the hype giving to his Totsuka/Yata items that were hyped the greatest researcher Orochimaru and Madara's will (who Madara researched the beginning of life/chakra, etc.) so if these motherfuckers say he was invincible when he employs them and nothing was shown to dehype it like a Minato, then you have to respect it.

Also no one besides these four can even do anything against his genjutsu.. Minato is 3 tiers below Itachi. Kakashi kills Minato.


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## StickaStick (Mar 7, 2014)

Vice said:


> Kabuto doesn't even need Madara. Without Sasuke there Phantom Snake Chains solos as shown in the manga.



I agree. I'm just pointing out that the only thing that even remotely makes this debatable is the fact that Kabuto was without his greatest weapon(s). Regardless the manga still shows Kabuto "killing" Itachi numerous times.



Almondsand said:


> *Naruto always gets owned by his genjutsu so do Sasuke..* and Sasuke couldn't follow his movements when they were against Kabuto in a non-combative stipulation battle.


lmao



Almondsand said:


> I'm basing most of what I'm saying off the hype giving to his Totsuka/Yata items that were *hyped the greatest researcher Orochimaru and Madara's will (who Madara researched the beginning of life/chakra, etc.) *so if these motherfuckers say he was invincible when he employs them and nothing was shown to dehype it like a Minato, then you have to respect it.



Panels showing where they were hyped by Oro (Note: searching for =/= hype)? Also are we talking about the same BZ who didn't recognize Susanoo during that very same fight? His whole commentary during that fight can't be taken at face-value.


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## Almondsand (Mar 7, 2014)

It's funny how Kabuto mentions Sasuke is slowing Itachi down... dumb dumbs


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## Kai (Mar 7, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> I'm basing most of what I'm saying off the hype giving to his Totsuka/Yata items that were hyped the greatest researcher Orochimaru and Madara's will (who Madara researched the beginning of life/chakra, etc.) so if these motherfuckers say he was invincible when he employs them and nothing was shown to dehype it like a Minato, then you have to respect it.


Since Itachi was revived with Edo Tensei, Yata's Mirror didn't do a single thing.


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## Almondsand (Mar 7, 2014)

Didn't need it.. -_-


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## Vice (Mar 7, 2014)

Yata's Mirror's feats include blocking a tiny weapon thrown by an exhausted Sasuke and nothing else.

Totsuka's feats include piercing people who couldn't even move or weren't trying to.

So impressive.


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## StickaStick (Mar 7, 2014)

Besides being virutally featless, the hype is also very dubious. All we really have is BZ's statement--the same BZ who showed he didn't recognize what Susanoo was only moments before making the statement.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 7, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> You never see a thread like this for anyone else so yeah I'm saying only
> 
> Madara, Hashirama, Juudara, Juubito are the only ones he possibly can't beat.
> 
> ...



To be blunt, you're an idiot.


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## Veracity (Mar 7, 2014)

LOOOOOOOOOL  @almondsand

You did not just say that Naruto the absolute perfect jin who can blitz 95% of the verse will get caught in Genjustu, and you did not just say that Sasuke, who has the most possible knowledge on Itachis Genjustu, who could track Juubito and has a freakin PS will also get caught in Itachis Genjustu ? Oh lord.

Because they both have knowledge on itachi, they simply don't look into his eyes. Naruto can blitz him before he can think about activating Genjustu, and Sasuke will be wrapped around his PS looking at the tops of mountains because he's so damn large.

Lol at Minato being 4 entire tiers lower and only 4 people being stronger then Itachi when there is at very least 12 beings in the Naruto verse that would kill him.


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## Lord Aizen (Mar 7, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Naruto, Minato, obito, madara, hashirama, sasuke, nagato, pain, kabuto, oro (with edo), jiraiaya, gaara, onoki, 3rd Raikage, A, B, current kakashi, gated Guy, Mu, hype Hiruzen...etc



Itachi hater right here


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 7, 2014)

He did not just say Minato is 4 tiers BELOW Itachi.


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## Lord Aizen (Mar 7, 2014)

Itachi can't beat 

Naruto
Sasuke
Hashirama
Madara 
Obito using rinnegan or his paths
Sm kabuto
Edo minato
Prime hiruzen
Nagato or pain
8gates guy


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## UltimateDeadpool (Mar 7, 2014)

*Healthy Itachi with MS doesn't exist. 
*Itachi could never use Koto Amatsukami.

Anyway, here's an alphabetical list: 

Hanzo (Prime)
Hiruzen (Prime)
Hashirama
Kabuto
Naruto
Madara
Minato
Orochimaru (healthy, blood-lusted)
Pein
Sasuke
Tobi
Tobirama



RobLucciRapes said:


> Also, I'm horrible with Naruto  power-levels, so I'm very confused as to where to even rank a lot of  current characters, due to that stupidly-written unnecessary  Power-jump...



Kishimoto makes powerlevels incredibly vague and, largely, non-existent. Fights that happen are dictated by: match-ups, circumstances, strategy, and some luck (plot hax). 

It's basically: 

Hashirama
Madara
Naruto
Sasuke
Tobi

And then a bunch of characters below them that are all fairly close, and then fodder characters below them. That's why the battledome is so popular.


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## Jagger (Mar 7, 2014)

I'm sorry, UltimateDeadpool, but it's funny how you exclude the motion of a "Healthy Itachi" since we've got no indication of the highest point of potential of this version of Itachi, yet, you include Hiruzen in his prime considering we've got nothing to see how strong he was (I doubt his Edo Tensei feats count his chakra reserves regenerate quiet quickly in such state).

If I had to guess, a "healthy" Itachi would be Edo Itachi minus the constant regeneration, but, at the same time, Madara literally got stronger after being revived, so it's kind of weird.


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## dungsi27 (Mar 7, 2014)

Im assume the list includes those people who,under fair conditions, would beat Itachi 10 out of 10 times
Such list should include the following individuals:
-Rikoudu
-Princess Kaguya(Rikoudus mother)
-Madara (all form)
-Obito (Rinnegan/Jinchuriki)
-Hashirama
-Kabuto (using all of his power,including Edo Tensei)
-Current Naruto (KCM with coat)
-Minato (Edo)
-Nagato(Prime)
-Hiruzen(Prime)


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## Veracity (Mar 7, 2014)

Jagger said:


> I'm sorry, UltimateDeadpool, but it's funny how you exclude the motion of a "Healthy Itachi" since we've got no indication of the highest point of potential of this version of Itachi, yet, you include Hiruzen in his prime considering we've got nothing to see how strong he was (I doubt his Edo Tensei feats count his chakra reserves regenerate quiet quickly in such state).
> 
> If I had to guess, a "healthy" Itachi would be Edo Itachi minus the constant regeneration, but, at the same time, Madara literally got stronger after being revived, so it's kind of weird.



Madera is Madara. Him and Hashirama are basically an exception to everything. Itachi as an Edo is as fast and as powerful as he will ever get. It's highly indicated that after a certain level of power, that the Edo caster can not revive them at full power. Hence we have Hashirama and Madara who are weaker as Edo. Itachi is definitely not even close to that level.


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## Jagger (Mar 7, 2014)

You can't just argue using the "Because he's Madara" argument. Going by such logic, Madara is somehow immune to Kotoamatsukami or Kamui "because he's Madara".

Yes, Kabuto did mention Madara is a special case compared to the rest of the zombies. But let's also not forget Tobirama mentioned they were brought "near full power" even after using Zetsu bodies as sacrificies to revive them. Not to mention Naruto's statement about Madara not being able to utilize certain Rinnegan powers.

It's kind of weird, as I said.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Mar 7, 2014)

Depending on who you ask, everyone or no one.


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## ARGUS (Mar 7, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> You never see a thread like this for anyone else so yeah I'm saying only
> 
> Madara, Hashirama, Juudara, Juubito are the only ones he possibly can't beat.
> 
> ...



Minato is on the same tier as Itachi,, deal with it,,,
if we takke BM into account then Minato beats Itachi rather easily 
this is the most fanboy post i have ever seen,,, 

Naruto is a perfect jin,, how does he get owned by only genjutsu,,, moreover he has been fighting Madara and Obito constantly in this war and not once has he fallen under genjutsu,,

Sasuke kept up with juubito,,,who is tiers above both kabuto and itachi in speed and 
movements,,, Sasuke also broke tsukuyomi which is itachis strongest genjutsu,,


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Orochimaru gets raped no difficulty (with or without Edo Tensei) and Kushina would be lucky to do even THAT well.
> .


If you want to believe that Orochimaru despite now having full knowledge of all of Itachi capabilities gets killed before he can use a single Jutsu [Edo Tensei] or even more laughably that Itachi stands any chance against Orochimaru + any of the Edo-Hokages, let alone multiple, than be my guest. But that shit is laughable.

Given extremely weakened Kushina had Kurama defeated, Itachi be lucky if he could even defeat weakened Kushina, let alone 100% Kushina.


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## Ersa (Mar 7, 2014)

Orochimaru gets blitzed before he even thinks about Edo Tensei, B was struggling and he's faster then Orochimaru. Of course if you start the match at long distance with plenty of cover to make Orochimaru win then yes he stomps with Edo Tensei but at standard distance (10m) Itachi wins. Edo Itachi stomps his face in no difficulty.


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## ARGUS (Mar 7, 2014)

Without ET, Orochimaru doesnt stand a chance against Itachi,, that should be obvious seeing as how itachi fodderised orochimaru without even using his MS,,, 
Orochimaru also admitted his inferiority to Itachi


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## Rocky (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Given extremely weakened Kushina had Kurama defeated, Itachi be lucky if he could even defeat weakened Kushina, let alone 100% Kushina.




That ABC logic is but cheeks though; you know that. Kushina's skillset is incredibly suited to take on a Bijuu, being a Fuinjutsu master and all. Itachi has a completely different moveset with unique skills that Kushina has shown no plausible way of overcoming. 

It would be similar to saying that Gai could destroy Bee because of the outcome of their respective fights against Kisame.


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## Almondsand (Mar 8, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> To be blunt, you're an idiot.



To be blunt your on my dick. And you don't even have the IQ to even call yourself Vegeta, change your name to Goku you dolt.


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## Almondsand (Mar 8, 2014)

You asswipes keep arguing about BM or people with this kind of power but where in the manga have it been mentioned as the all powerful technique. As I recall these modes are only up for a limited amount of time and takes a shit ton of time to even activate. 

It's all the prep needed to even do these power-ups so these people will always need back up to even be able to get in these forms or be able to use these powers. With that said Itachi have one shot kill moves that do not need prep such as Tostsuka/Yata which have been stated to make him invincible by the very being that is owning everybody in the manga as of late. Also give Itachi the same amount of prep time you are given these characters to get in their modes and he already kills them and he is able to set up even more complex elabarote schemes. 

Itachi can kill anyone of the people you mentioned and give him time it will be him victorious more times than not.

Everybody you see wielding big power had to prep it except for the Uchiha with Susano'o and MS techniques.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 8, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> To be blunt your on my dick. And you don't even have the IQ to even call yourself Vegeta, change your name to Goku you dolt.



>Says I have a low IQ
>Proceeds to fail in using the right spelling of you're
>Thinks Itachi can beat everyone
>


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## Almondsand (Mar 8, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> >Says I have a low IQ
> >Proceeds to fail in using the right spelling of you're
> >Thinks Itachi can beat everyone
> >


You been on my dick for so long I had to use the possessive form.. Ya dig?


----------



## Azula (Mar 8, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Madara, Hashirama, Juudara, Juubito are the only ones he possibly can't beat.



Why do you think itachi can't beat them :ignoramus

After all none of them can counter totsuka


Shinsuusenju gets sucked into totsuka bottle
Perfect susanoo gets sucked into totsuka bottle
Onmyoudon and juubi get sucked into totsuka bottle

Itachi is invincible


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## Almondsand (Mar 8, 2014)

I said *possibly* can't beat. Also I am looking at this as Sick Itachi, the only Itachi that existed in the manga besides a Edo version that didn't anything that the sick version couldn't.


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## Fiiction (Mar 8, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> When did the NBD become such a complete canon-defiant shithole?
> 
> Orochimaru gets raped no difficulty (with or without Edo Tensei)



Edo Hashirama baby stomps. Tostuka? Wood human catches it.
Edo Minato speed stomps. Yata? TBB/Giant rasengan Then shunsin blitz.
Tobirama with Hiruzen stomps. Tsukyomi? How is he getting both? Amaterasu? Edos/ Tobirama tags hiruzen then teleports repeatedly.
Orochimaru just stands there with excitement knowing that he's finally going to be able to get itachi's sharingan.


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## Jad (Mar 8, 2014)

I believe Gai can beat Itachi, as I don't believe he has never done different back to back MS techniques.

If Gai is looking at Itachi's feet, and he hits him with Ameterasu presumably. What's stopping Gai from going gates  immediately at that point and rushing Itachi? Itachi can't put up Sasunoo because his never shown to recover from the effects to perform an efficient and different MS technique back to back.

Examples:

 Part-1 he used MS and was irritated by the effects [1]
 When used against Toad stomach he had to recover from the usage [2]
 Against Hebi this was his Tsykomi effect [3][4] and this was him gathering his chakra and composure for Ameterasu [4][5]. Then after a big break of using smaller ranked ninjutsu he finally pulls out Ameterasu [6]. There was also a break before he switched to Sasuno for Kirin.

I feel like we don't have enough evidence to suggest Itachi can consecutively use different MS jutsus straight after another. Rather he has to space the usage of them out if he wants to switch from one to another. And at Gai's gated speed, which he will use after, say getting hit by Ameratsu, that moment is more then enough because his naked to attacks.

If he uses Sasunoo from the get go, he can't use his other MS jutsu's and Gai just runs and dodges the sword. If he goes to Ameterasu, he closes Sasuno and Gai rushes him in gates. No point in using Tsykomi.


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## Fiiction (Mar 8, 2014)

-Azula- said:


> Why do you think itachi can't beat them :ignoramus
> 
> After all none of them can counter totsuka
> 
> ...



You're better than this..


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## Fiiction (Mar 8, 2014)

Itachi can have 16 years of prep time, there's no way he's competing with madara or hashirama at their best. Even without the Juubi, one eyed rinnegan madara stomps. RINBO HENGOKU GG.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 8, 2014)

Vice said:


> Itachi being on a TEAM with an EMS user would not suggest that he's > Kabuto in any way.



But he was, as he won the battle.

Also feel free to show the EMS powers that EMS user has shown.



Fiiction said:


> Itachi can have 16 years of prep time, there's no way he's competing with madara or hashirama at their best. Even without the Juubi, one eyed rinnegan madara stomps. RINBO HENGOKU GG.



Itachi with prep would defeat any incarnation of Madara.


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## Rocky (Mar 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi with prep would defeat any incarnation of Madara.




Itachi would get flattened by EMS Madara regardless of preparation.

The fact that you included Jubidara though is quite funny. Keep up the good work kid.


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## Veracity (Mar 8, 2014)

@grimm

LOOOOL. Itachi with 16.5 years of prep has nothing for a simple PS Swipe that can level mountain ranges, or the durabilty of PS which can take 11 BD'S + PS Swords.


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## Rocky (Mar 8, 2014)

Madara doesn't need Perfect Susano'o to kill Itachi.


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## Veracity (Mar 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Madara doesn't need Perfect Susano'o to kill Itachi.



True, he can blitz with his SM Naruto( at very less equal reactions to Itachi) blitzing speed.

And he has Juubi sized Katons, and reactions to block against V2 Ay, meaning Amasterasu is useless and basically any projectile is too. 

He also sports a larger, stronger, and more durable Sussano, and HAS top tiered stamina/chakra. I'm actually confused on how Itachi can possibly win. :Lmao


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## fior fior (Mar 8, 2014)

Base Jiraiya and that's pretty much it..


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## fior fior (Mar 8, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> True, he can blitz with his SM Naruto( at very less equal reactions to Itachi) blitzing speed.
> 
> And he has Juubi sized Katons, and reactions to block against V2 Ay, meaning Amasterasu is useless and basically any projectile is too.
> 
> He also sports a larger, stronger, and more durable Sussano, and HAS top tiered stamina/chakra. I'm actually confused on how Itachi can possibly win. :Lmao



The strength of the Yata Mirror + Totsuka blade is still unconfirmed..
There is nothing to suggest that Madara's Susano'o is stronger than Itachi's in any way, shape or form.

Amaterasu has already proven to be a counter to stronger Katons, as confirmed during Itachi vs. Sasuke- weak, dying Itachi's feeble Katon was overpowered by Sasuke's, but Amaterasu overcame it.

I don't understand how Madara having the reactions to block against V2 Ay makes Amaterasu useless. Being able to guard with Susano'o well enough to stay alive against Ay does not equate to being able to fight at Ay's speed i.e. dodge Amaterasu.

Moreover, there's the question of how effective Susano'o would be against Amaterasu. It might well burn just like any other substance.

You're right that Madara is more durable and would definitely outlast Itachi. I also believe that Madara would beat Itachi without PS, but your reasoning was pretty horrible..


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## Veracity (Mar 8, 2014)

fior fior said:


> The strength of the Yata Mirror + Totsuka blade is still unconfirmed..
> There is nothing to suggest that Madara's Susano'o is stronger than Itachi's in any way, shape or form.
> 
> Amaterasu has already proven to be a counter to stronger Katons, as confirmed during Itachi vs. Sasuke- weak, dying Itachi's feeble Katon was overpowered by Sasuke's, but Amaterasu overcame it.
> ...



The strentgh of Yata mirror and Yasaka blade being unconfirmed helps your argument in what way lol? They both are basically Featless, and Yasaka had only been shown to hit stationary targets.

Everything in Madara's arsenal is tiers above Itachis, so why would his Sussano( Madara posses the EMS Btw) be weaker or even on par with Itachis ? His Sussano is not only bigger, but his ribcage possess more durabilty then Sasukes, and there's nothing to suggest Itachi has a superior Sussano to Sasuke, but possibly his legendary weapons.

Nothing was said about his Katon vs Itachis Amaterasu. Donno why you brought it up ? Actually thanks for that because it actually took quite awhile for Itachi to overwhelm Sasukes Katon( atleast 15 times smaller then Madara's upper scale Katon) with Amaterasu. Amaterasu heavily wears away at Itachis eyesight and stamina, so overusing it woulsd actually just kill him. Also his Katons can be used to overpower Itachis( as if he's constantly going to be using Amaterasu) Katons, used for diversions( they are almost Juubi sized lol) or could he used to wear away at Sussano and make Itachi constantly eat up chakra to replenish it.

And this is exactly why your opinion is Completely irrelevant. Why even post ? Lol Madara being able to react to V2 Ay means he can react to Amaterasu, meaning he an activate Sussano before it even gets close to him. Amaterasu really isn't going to do shit to Sussano and is actually going to be a fire shield. This is because it took quite a bit to burn Ay's arm, and couldn't even burn or spread flames through the trees surrounding the Uchiha shrine when a single spark can usually create forest fires. Even if it could actually destroy Sussano then it's just a matter of just reactivating Sussano in which Madara has Bjuii level chakra.

Btw. My post was not horrible at all lol. It wasn't even directed towards you, and I was confident Rocky was intelligent enough to put two and two together.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 8, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @grimm
> 
> LOOOOL. Itachi with 16.5 years of prep has nothing for a simple PS Swipe that can level mountain ranges, or the durabilty of PS which can take 11 BD'S + PS Swords.



Yes because Itachi with 16 years of prep will just walk up to Madara and wait to get PS swiped 




Rocky said:


> Itachi would get flattened by EMS Madara regardless of preparation.
> 
> The fact that you included Jubidara though is quite funny. Keep up the good work kid.



Juubidara is the most arrogant Madara incarnation thus the most vulnerable to ambushes.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That ABC logic is but cheeks though; you know that. Kushina's skillset is incredibly suited to take on a Bijuu, being a Fuinjutsu master and all. Itachi has a completely different moveset with unique skills that Kushina has shown no plausible way of overcoming.
> 
> It would be similar to saying that Gai could destroy Bee because of the outcome of their respective fights against Kisame.


Rocky it's not A>B>C logic. It's A [Kushina] >>>>> B [Kurama] >>>>>>>>>> C [Itachi]. Kurama is much bigger threat and much stronger than Itachi will ever be; Kushina demonstrated she was capable dealing with that threat after having her Bijuu ripped out of her, the strain of which instantly OKO'd Naruto, which should demonstrate how weakened she was --- on-top of child birth, which weakened her further. Anyone who can deal w/ Kurama in such a condition is in a completely different dimension than Itachi; which is why A/B/C logic here is a decent indicator. Not to mention it's support by Naruto Post-KCM claiming his mom is still stronger than him, when he only got to see a mere fragment of her power. 

Kushina's move-set is not any-less effective against Non-Bijuu. We've seen the chains, uzamaki fuuinjutsu, barriers, etc... all work universally and are just as effective against humans. Gai's beat Kisame specifically because AT by-passed Daikodan's chakra absorption; Kushina never defeated Kurama due to one of her techniques being immune to his abilities. Her chains when used by someone as experienced as Karin were tearing apart Shin Suusenju. Her Barrier didn't just keep in Kurama, but also kept a Hokage like Hiruzen and others out. Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu has been shown to work on human enemies multiple times to great effect. 

Itachi may have different abilities than Kurama, but different abilities only gets you so far, it's not going to make up for an absolutely massive gap in hype/portrayal. Not to mention Kushina does have counters for Itachi's abilities. The Chains can be used to far greater effect than Gaara's Sand, which we've already seen counter the bottomless Susano'o variants; w/o Susano'o Itachi gets massacred by the chains offensive might. For defense Kushina can pull barriers out that can block the raw might of Kurama and wrap the chains around herself as defense; Itachi's got nothing that is breaking through that. So half dead Kushina w/ very little panel time to show off feats, already has the feats to be able to beat Itachi, which should tell you that if Kushina got more panel time, the gap would simply widen.


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## Enki (Mar 8, 2014)

The + also includes stronger variations of said character.

Rikudou
KCM Naruto +
MS Sasuke +
Base Hashirama +
EMS Madara +
Minato +
Pain +
Orochimaru
SM Kabuto
MS Obito +
7th Gai +

There are others (Kakashi, Killer Bee, SM Jiraiya etc) who are 50/50.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Rocky it's not A>B>C logic. It's A [Kushina] >>>>> B [Kurama] >>>>>>>>>> C [Itachi]. Kurama is much bigger threat and much stronger than Itachi will ever be; Kushina demonstrated she was capable dealing with that threat after having her Bijuu ripped out of her, the strain of which instantly OKO'd Naruto, which should demonstrate how weakened she was --- on-top of child birth, which weakened her further. Anyone who can deal w/ Kurama in such a condition is in a completely different dimension than Itachi; which is why A/B/C logic here is a decent indicator. Not to mention it's support by Naruto Post-KCM claiming his mom is still stronger than him, when he only got to see a mere fragment of her power.
> 
> Kushina's move-set is not any-less effective against Non-Bijuu. We've seen the chains, uzamaki fuuinjutsu, barriers, etc... all work universally and are just as effective against humans. Gai's beat Kisame specifically because AT by-passed Daikodan's chakra absorption; Kushina never defeated Kurama due to one of her techniques being immune to his abilities. Her chains when used by someone as experienced as Karin were tearing apart Shin Suusenju. Her Barrier didn't just keep in Kurama, but also kept a Hokage like Hiruzen and others out. Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu has been shown to work on human enemies multiple times to great effect.
> 
> Itachi may have different abilities than Kurama, but different abilities only gets you so far, it's not going to make up for an absolutely massive gap in hype/portrayal. Not to mention Kushina does have counters for Itachi's abilities. The Chains can be used to far greater effect than Gaara's Sand, which we've already seen counter the bottomless Susano'o variants; w/o Susano'o Itachi gets massacred by the chains offensive might. For defense Kushina can pull barriers out that can block the raw might of Kurama and wrap the chains around herself as defense; Itachi's got nothing that is breaking through that. So half dead Kushina w/ very little panel time to show off feats, already has the feats to be able to beat Itachi, which should tell you that if Kushina got more panel time, the gap would simply widen.



Uzumaki chains are Kurama's Kryptonite. 
Itachi can control Kurama with MS(which is basically the same thing as restraining it with chains), that doesn't mean he is stronger than Kyuubi.
Cut down the dope bro.


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## Rain (Mar 8, 2014)

Rikudo Sennin might be some challenge, but i'd still put my money on Itachi. Clone feint + kunai to the grey matter.

lel at anyone else lasting more than 1/1000th of a second against Itachi.


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## Vice (Mar 8, 2014)

Fanboys gonna fanboy.


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## Almondsand (Mar 8, 2014)

It took Madara a 100 years prep to gain his power as well as dying to do it lol. As well as Minato it took him to die to get SM and BM, he has to prep seals on his Kunai and they useless anyway. It took Itachi to prep his battle and death to give Sasuke a shit load of power ups, and it took Naruto to die and his father to die for him to get a shitload of power ups. Itachi made everyone in the manga prep for him.. Kabuto needed prep to go sage and get edo tensei. Sage mode and BM need prep and is not practical in battle.


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## Vice (Mar 8, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> It took Madara a 100 years prep to gain his power as well as dying to do it lol. As well as Minato it took him to die to get SM and BM, he has to prep seals on his Kunai and they useless anyway. It took Itachi to prep his battle and death to give Sasuke a shit load of power ups, and it took Naruto to die and his father to die for him to get a shitload of power ups. Itachi made everyone in the manga prep for him.. Kabuto needed prep to go sage and get edo tensei. Sage mode and BM need prep and is not practical in battle.



The version of the story that you must be reading is located .


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## Almondsand (Mar 8, 2014)

You mad Itachi can style on everybody based on Tostuka blitz.


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## Vice (Mar 8, 2014)

Totsuka blitz doesn't exist, it's a made-up fanboy thing.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Mar 8, 2014)

Jagger said:


> I'm sorry, UltimateDeadpool, but it's funny how you exclude the motion of a "Healthy Itachi" since we've got no indication of the highest point of potential of this version of Itachi, yet, you include Hiruzen in his prime considering we've got nothing to see how strong he was (I doubt his Edo Tensei feats count his chakra reserves regenerate quiet quickly in such state).
> 
> If I had to guess, a "healthy" Itachi would be Edo Itachi minus the constant regeneration, but, at the same time, Madara literally got stronger after being revived, so it's kind of weird.



A prime Hiruzen is canon, we have various comments on it, and he's still stated to be one of the strongest even as an old man and was still considered the strongest of the Gokage.  

Edo Itachi is Edo Itachi, healthy Itachi is before he got MS; or at least before he mastered it. 
Itachi cannot have MS mastery and be 100%. We were able to watch Sasuke's progression and descent; by the time Sasuke unlocked  Kagutsuchi, he already needed glasses. By the time he mastered Susanoo,  his vision was almost as bad as Itachi's. Susanoo also has the nasty  habit of attacking the user's body and eating their life, which  Itachi has been wrestling with since he was 13. Lastly, Edo Itachi's feats weren't any more impressive than living Itachi's feats.



Vice said:


> Totsuka blitz doesn't exist, it's a made-up fanboy thing.



This is true. 

Hell, 25 Susanoos couldn't beat the Gokages.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Uzumaki chains are Kurama's Kryptonite.
> .


Show me one panel that says Kurama is specifically weak to Uzamaki Chains. Otherwise this is fanfiction.



> Itachi can control Kurama with MS(which is basically the same thing as restraining it with chains), that doesn't mean he is stronger than Kyuubi.
> Cut down the dope bro


Show me one panel of Itachi controlling any Bijuu w/ MS otherwise this is fanfiction. A shinobi having the capability to do something with MS, doesn't mean Itachi had that capability to use said ability, land said ability on the Fox, or defeat the fox during the duration of that ability. 

Also it's the not the same thing, since MS specifically grants control over the Kyuubi, to those that can use MS that way. Nothing is stated saying Uzamaki chains do the same.


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## Rocky (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Rocky it's not A>B>C logic. It's A [Kushina] >>>>> B [Kurama] >>>>>>>>>> C [Itachi]. Kurama is much bigger threat and much stronger than Itachi will ever be; Kushina demonstrated she was capable dealing with that threat after having her Bijuu ripped out of her, the strain of which instantly OKO'd Naruto, which should demonstrate how weakened she was --- on-top of child birth, which weakened her further. Anyone who can deal w/ Kurama in such a condition is in a completely different dimension than Itachi; which is why A/B/C logic here is a decent indicator. Not to mention it's support by Naruto Post-KCM claiming his mom is still stronger than him, when he only got to see a mere fragment of her power.




You're ignoring Minato completely. Had he not been there that night, she wouldn't have "beaten" Kurama, due to her condition. Also, her victory would have been a mutual death, so is it really a win?

For that Naruto statement, a scan would be nice.



> Kushina's move-set is not any-less effective against Non-Bijuu. We've seen the chains, uzamaki fuuinjutsu, barriers, etc... all work universally and are just as effective against humans. Gai's beat Kisame specifically because AT by-passed Daikodan's chakra absorption; Kushina never defeated Kurama due to one of her techniques being immune to his abilities. Her chains when used by someone as experienced as Karin were tearing apart Shin Suusenju. Her Barrier didn't just keep in Kurama, but also kept a Hokage like Hiruzen and others out. Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu has been shown to work on human enemies multiple times to great effect.




Yeah, I confused her chains with the Rinnegan's Bijuu sealing chains.

Now I'm wondering why Kurama sat there and watched them instead of activating Bijuudama and splattering them both. If the chains didn't suppress his power, why would he stop? 



> Itachi may have different abilities than Kurama, but different abilities only gets you so far, it's not going to make up for an absolutely massive gap in hype/portrayal. Not to mention Kushina does have counters for Itachi's abilities. The Chains can be used to far greater effect than Gaara's Sand, which we've already seen counter the bottomless Susano'o variants; w/o Susano'o Itachi gets massacred by the chains offensive might. For defense Kushina can pull barriers out that can block the raw might of Kurama and wrap the chains around herself as defense; Itachi's got nothing that is breaking through that. So half dead Kushina w/ very little panel time to show off feats, already has the feats to be able to beat Itachi, which should tell you that if Kushina got more panel time, the gap would simply widen.




Featless "chain wrapping" wouldn't save her from Genjutsu or Amaterasu.

It disturbs me that you believe Kushina lolstomped Kurama. She said she could seal it and doing do would kill her...


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## Alex Payne (Mar 8, 2014)

People Itachi can't beat under any feasible conditions:

Hashirama
Madara(VotE and up)
Naruto(KCM with Kurama's cooperation and up)
Sasuke(EMS and up)
Obito(Rinnegan and up)
Minato(Edo Tensei+Kyubi)
Kabuto(Start of War with all ET)
Orochimaru(Hokage ET assuming they will fight for him)

That's all really. Itachi is strong and his trump cards(Yata, Totsuka, Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu) combined with excellent core abilities and intelligence make him a threat to anyone bar absolute top tiers. 

Nagato(both normal and via 6 Paths), MS Obito, SM Kabuto without ET, Kakashi, Tobirama with prep and living Minato are either 50/50 fights or fights with Itachi losing more often than not but 100% of times - depending on your views.

By hype Prime Hiruzen and 8th Gate Gai can likely beat Itachi too. But even hype of being stronger than other Kages of Hiruzen's gen isn't enough to warrant 10/10 wins - considering Itachi is also stronger than most of those Kages(only Onoki is arguable imo). And 8th Gate is a suicide.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You're ignoring Minato completely. Had he not been there that night, she wouldn't have "beaten" Kurama, due to her condition.
> .


Kushina bound Kurama, set up the barrier, and she was the one the was going to seal Kurama back inside herself. Minato was not involved until he decided to seal Kurama into Naruto instead.



> Also, her victory would have been a mutual death, so is it really a win?


Kushina was dying due to Kurama being extracted to her, not due to re-sealing Kurama inside herself.



> For that Naruto statement, a scan would be nice.


sat there and watched
sat there and watched



> Now I'm wondering why Kurama sat there and watched them instead of activating Bijuudama and splattering them both. If the chains didn't suppress his power, why would he stop?


Probably because Kushina set up a barrier around him, so if he detonated a Bijuu-Bomb he would have just blown himself up, while Kushina and Minato could have just left the barrier while the Bijuu-Bomb was charging. 



> Featless "chain wrapping" wouldn't save her from Genjutsu or Amaterasu.


Amaterasu and Genjutsu are not one-shot techniques. Thee only time ether has ever worked that way is against Part I Kakashi, who is insignificant strength-wise in the current story. So I do not know why the expectation is still there among sensible posters for this techniques to do that; I understand why Itachi-fans troll w/ that shit though. 

He'd be instantly forced into Susano'o against Uzamaki Chains, than a Kurama containing barrier would be thrown up around him, while having Susano'o held down by the chains, preventing him from doing anything. From there Kushina rips him out of Susano'o from bellow w/ her chains and finishes him with a chain follow up attack. It's that simple. 

Anyway Genjutsu can be avoid, by not making eye contact and Amaterasu can't burn through Samurai armor quickly so it's not burning through Uzamaki Chains quick enough. Plus both techniques require charge time that is longer than it takes Kushina to pull Uzamaki Chains out. But point blank Kishi will troll the one-shot ability of those techniques against Kushina the same way he trolled them against every other high order Shinobi they've gone up against.


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## Rocky (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Kushina bound Kurama, set up the barrier, and she was the one the was going to seal Kurama back inside herself. Minato was not involved until he decided to seal Kurama into Naruto instead.




Yes, but Minato knocked Kurama down (giving her an opening), countered its attacks on the village, and saved Kushina from death. Her condition would've cost her her life had it not been for Minato.



> Futon users confirmed that there was no effect whatsoever
> Futon users confirmed that there was no effect whatsoever




...I'm sorry man, but I just don't agree that that particular statement refers to combat ability. Being "stronger" than someone in that context may refer to other things.




> Probably because Kushina set up a barrier around him, so if he detonated a Bijuu-Bomb he would have just blown himself up, while Kushina and Minato could have just left the barrier while the Bijuu-Bomb was charging.




The Barrier was set up around all three of them. Kurama may have been engulfed in the blast radius and injured, but Minato, Kushina, and Naruto would be dead....




> He'd be instantly forced into Susano'o against Uzamaki Chains, than a Kurama containing barrier would be thrown up around him, while having Susano'o held down by the chains, preventing him from doing anything. From there Kushina rips him out of Susano'o from bellow w/ her chains and finishes him with a chain follow up attack. It's that simple.




...can the chains not be dodged? Can Itachi not swap with a clone, like he was able to do in front of Sharingan Kakashi....?


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## Alex Payne (Mar 8, 2014)

Unless Kushina can channel Kyubi powers up to controlled Shroud States she isn't pushing Itachi above low diff.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 8, 2014)

Plot isn't a valid excuse when debating about who'd beat who in a BD match-up. I like Kushina, but she's shown nothing to suggest she can avoid amaterasu.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Yes, but Minato knocked Kurama down (giving her an opening),


Huh? When?



> countered its attacks on the village, and saved Kushina from death. Her condition would've cost her her life had it not been for Minato.


Minato saved Kushina and the village, no one is disputing that, but later when Kushina recovered a bit more [though still obviously significantly weakened] she demonstrated the ability to handle Kurama on her own.



> ..I'm sorry man, but I just don't agree that that particular statement refers to combat ability. Being "stronger" than someone in that context may refer to other things.


I'm sorry but the context is "shinobi" and Naruto very clearly says he's still trying to become a stronger Shinobi than his mom. There is no complexity there, it's a very straight-forward statement, back by Kushina's ridiculously OP performance against Kurama Naruto had just herd about and in part witnessed against 50% Kurama.



> The Barrier was set up around all three of them. Kurama may have been engulfed in the blast radius and injured, but Minato, Kushina, and Naruto would be dead....


We've seen that the barrier user can open holes in the barrier and exit them. Nothing stopping Kushian & Minato from doing that. Also nothing stopping Kushina from holding the Fox's mouth closed w/ a chain and thus causing the bomb to explode inside Kyuubi ala Juubi.



> ..can the chains not be dodged?


50% Kurama is faster than SM Naruto; Kushina's chains completely outsped 100% Kurama to the point where he couldn't move a muscle to defend. So unless you believe Itachi is significantly faster than a dude whose faster than SM-Naruto, when he's at 50%, I don't think this even worth discussing. Itachi will need Susano'o to block; and i'm being pretty fair giving Itachi's Susano'o the benefit of the doubt that it can indeed block the chains, when we saw Fodder Karin using the Chains blow through Shin SuuSenju and i'm also being pretty fair in giving Itachi the benefit of the doubt that he can both pull Susano'o out in-time and knows he needs Susano'o to block such as a speedy attack, that he demonstrate zero experience or knowledge dealing w/. 



> Can Itachi not swap with a clone, like he was able to do in front of Sharingan Kakashi....?


Honestly Clone Swapping is some illogical BS-PNJ in the manga in the same way as Kwarimi. Kishi could have Itachi Clone swap Rikudo-Sannin, if he so wished it, because the mechanics, have never been explained and make zero sense. 

Kwarimi is supposed to work where someone swaps their body out for an object; it's the same principle as Bushin-Swap, except there the body is swapped out w/ a clone; similar to what Kakashi did with Naruto's clone, but done with your own clone in most cases:
HERE 

But how the fuck does the swap actually work? The natural assumption would be that someone physical places an object/clone/whatever in their place while escaping out of view. Which made perfect sense when Kakashi was using the skill against Genin, since he could probably move fast enough where it's realistic that a Genin could loose track of him. It also made sense when Kakashi did against an enemy whose LOS is blocked, since there he didn't need to move so fast the enemy can't see the swap, because their sight is already blocked. 

However the idea that the swap is made physically looses all logical coherence, when we see examples such as Yamato pulling that shit off right in-front of the eyes of Naruto and Sai:
HERE 

Yamato is no speed demon, he only has a 4 in speed according to DB III, which is only slightly better than Naruto's 3.5/3.5. Heck he even pulled that shit off against a legendary Sannin and Kabuto:
HERE 

Yamato's speed actually being inferior to Orochimaru's 4.5 in speed. And even if you don't buy into DB-Stats, for whatever reason, there is certainly nothing in the Manga-Cannon that supports that Yamato should be able to move so fast that he can dance circles around Ninja like Orochimaru to the extent that they couldn't even begin to comprehend his movements. Or here's another example:
HERE 

How the fuck did Animal Realm replace himself w/ the wooden log right in-front of Jiraiya's eyes. Literally nothing in the manga indicates that Animal-Realm can dance circles around Ninja like Jiriaya to the extent that they couldn't even begin to comprehend his movements. In-fact here we have the added mystery of how the fuck did Animal Realm even physically move to replace himself, since he was bound by Jiriaya's hair?

So obviously physically going through the motions of swapping oneself with an object/clone makes no-sense. So what does Kwarimi/swaps like this work via space-time, where someone swaps places w/ an object in a similar way to how someone teleports w/ Hiraishin. Sure that could make sense, but the problem with that explanation is Kwarimi is a fricking D-Rank Technique, that is taught to Academy students, meaning almost every Ninja can use whatever swapping method is taking place here. So than why isn't every Ninja battle like the Naruto-storm games, where ninja just Kwarimi through everyones attacks, until one of them runs out of Stamina or someone manages to hit them before they can even think to use Kwarimi? Why didn't Kakashi just Kwarimi through Madara's black orb attack last chapter? Etc...

So that explanation makes zero sense as well. The only explanation that makes any sense to me, is that the Kwarimi swapping is simply powered by Deus Ex Machina and whenever Kishi wants it to work it does, and whenever Kishi doesn't want it to work it doesn't, with zero internal logic behind it. Basically a goto when Kishi has written himself into a corner. And to me this is why the Itachi Bushin-Fieints/Swarps argument is a trollish point to make, as literally there is no discussion for or against it, since yeah sure Itachi could clone-swap if Kishi wanted that shit to happen, but the same argument could be made for fucking Konohamaru clone-swapping and basically any character.

So unless you can give me some kind of tangible reason for how the swapping works, I don't accept it as a credible argument, beyond the fact that it can happen, but Konohamaru can also clone-swap Rikudo, if kishi wished it. --End of clone-swaping/Kwarimi rant



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Plot isn't a valid excuse when debating about who'd beat who in a BD match-up. I like Kushina, but she's shown nothing to suggest she can avoid amaterasu.


Some people seem to have this impression that the BD is strictly about feats, when that is not some type of rule in the BD. The BD is for character match ups period. Portrayal is also a valid means of discussion. Amaterasu has been portrayed as a technique which is constantly trolled by higher-level characters and has never once been allowed to one-shot anyone. Personally given that portrayal It's hard for me to imagine that Amaterasu would actually one-shot someone as accomplished as Kushina, and it's much easier to imagine that Kishi would have her pull out some BS-Jutsu to defend against it, as he has consistently done in every other case Amaterasu had been used. If you don't accept that, for insert X-feat based argument here, than fine, but I'm not trying to convince anyone. The OP specifically asked us who we thought Itachi stood no chance against, and Kushina's current portrayal is enough for me to believe he doesn't stand a chance, just like I don't need to see Kaguya actually counter Amaterasu to believe that Itachi stands no chance against her given her portrayal. 

Not to mention I gave a feat-based argument anyway, which seems totally ignored by this post.


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## Rocky (Mar 8, 2014)

Your placement of Kushina above Minato bothers me highly, but I agree with the clone feint explanation. We kind of have to deal with it though....


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Some people seem to have this impression that the BD is strictly about feats, when that is not some type of rule in the BD. The BD is for character match ups period. Portrayal is also a valid means of discussion. Amaterasu has been portrayed as a technique which is constantly trolled by higher-level characters and has never once been allowed to one-shot anyone. Personally given that portrayal It's hard for me to imagine that Amaterasu would actually one-shot someone as accomplished as Kushina, and it's much easier to imagine that Kishi would have her pull out some BS-Jutsu to defend against it, as he has consistently done in every other case Amaterasu had been used. If you don't accept that, for insert X-feat based argument here, than fine, but I'm not trying to convince anyone. The OP specifically asked us who we thought Itachi stood no chance against, and Kushina's current portrayal is enough for me to believe he doesn't stand a chance, just like I don't need to see Kaguya actually counter Amaterasu to believe that Itachi stands no chance against her given her portrayal.
> 
> Not to mention I gave a feat-based argument anyway, which seems totally ignored by this post.



Doesn't matter what you believe. PIS isn't a valid excuse and it never will be. You want me to sit here and say Juubito is fodder because he lost to a combination far weaker than his strength? No. A sword that supposedly created everything was easily pierced by Naruto and Sasuke's susanoo/kurama combination. Let's just write the sword off as utter fodder, right? No, because it's clearly PIS. Trying to use PIS as a valid excuse only serves to show how desperate one is because they lack an argument.

Amaterasu has failed at times because the plot demanded it to. That doesn't change what the ability of the jutsu entails, which is igniting anything in it's line of sight on fire and it continuing to burn and with no conventional way of putting the flames out unless one seals them or absorbs them (preta path)


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Your placement of Kushina above Minato bothers me highly,


The thing is Kushina being above Minato can easily make sense from a story structure perspective. Kushina is a more relevant benchmark for Naruto's future development than Minato is at this point. Minato was a benchmark for Naruto in terms of Rasengan, Super-Speed, Chakra-Sharing, and apparently without us being aware of it Senjutsu. Naruto has already surpassed his father in all of those regards. He has taken Rasengan further than his father ever has, he's become faster than his father in most instances w/ BSM, far surpassed him in chakra sharing according to Kurama, and surpassed him in Senjutsu. 

However the sole area one could say Minato is still better at Naruto at is Uzamak Fuuinjutsu, but this is much more closely tied to Kushina's character. She is the one whose legendary even among the Uzamaki and in-fact taught Minato all he knows about Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu. So when it comes to Naruto finally mastering his Clan's heritage, it will be Kushina who becomes the benchmark not Minato. Like-wise it's Kushina, not Minato, whose the benchmark that is relevant to Naruto's further development as the Kyuubi-Jinchuuriki, since we all know that eventually Naruto is going to house greater power than 50% Kurama inside of him, and thus it will be someone like Kushina who houses the 100% Kurama inside of her, that will be relevant to Naruto's development in that regard.

Finally if you have been following the story from the very beginning, Kishimoto has consistently, and I meant consistently associated Naruto with Fuuinjutsu. Tons of chapter covers have been inexplicably devoted to Naruto using Fuuinjutsu or Fuuinjtusu scrolls as a weapon despite Naruto never once demonstrating an ability w/ Fuuinjutsu. Than we learn Naruto's clan specializes in Fuuinjutsu. It's so painfully obvious that Naruto will get Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu at some point, and it's going to be an extremely major power-up when he gets it. The longer Kishi waits to do that and the stronger the enemies become, the more OP that Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu is going to be, and Kushina is tied to that. In-fact I'd go so far as to say, look at Minato, why do you think Kishi is keeping that armless dude around whose basically worthless at this point; I strongly suspect it's because Minato is going to be the one to reveal the secrets of the Uzamaki Clan/Fuuinjutsu to Naruto, basically imparting what Kushina showed him to Naruto.



> but I agree with the clone feint explanation. We kind of have to deal with it though....


We do have to accept it can happen. But I don't really see any point of brining it up in character match up discussions. I mean w/o any rhyme or reason to when a person uses these swaps or how they uses these swaps, there is no credible argument to be made for these swaps. So personally I think it's best just to ignore them in logical discussion. Just like I wouldn't bring up Tenten countering Itachi's attacks by Kwarimi'ing through them, even though it could indeed happen, if Kishi willed it.


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## Almondsand (Mar 8, 2014)

Never put Itachi feats with Amaterasu in the same boat as Sasuke's. Itachi successfully taken out Nagato and Cerburus, and blew up a fire breathing toad stomach and made a burning forest. His AMA never fails.. It's the same thing with genjutsu, his feats and manga portrayal shows he's the best.


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## Almondsand (Mar 8, 2014)

Also Kushina taught Minato how to be a ninja.


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## Vice (Mar 8, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Never put Itachi feats with Amaterasu in the same boat as Sasuke's.



Yes, because Sasuke is actually better with it.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 8, 2014)

Vice said:


> Yes, because Sasuke is actually better with it.



Why are you even bothering with him? The guy's proven to be an (use a more appropriate word).


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## Rocky (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The thing is Kushina being above Minato can easily make sense from a story structure perspective.




That has never been supported. Naruto may have surpassed Minato, but his benchmarks have nothing to do with Minato & Kushina's respective strength. I mean, during the flashback, look at how helpless Kushina was once Obito distracted Minato. That was basically Obito's entire plan; remove Minato from the picture so he can take Kushina away....which he casually did. There is absolutely no possible way that child birth and seal trouble overcame her Uzumaki resilience and rendered her incapable to fight when even a Bijuu extraction failed at that....


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Doesn't matter what you believe. PIS isn't a valid excuse and it never will be.


PIS is Plot Induced Stupidity. I'm never one to argue for PIS, since I think it's simply a matter of characterization; whether done poorly or otherwise, is another matter entirely.



> . You want me to sit here and say Juubito is fodder because he lost to a combination far weaker than his strength? No. A sword that supposedly created everything was easily pierced by Naruto and Sasuke's susanoo/kurama combination. Let's just write the sword off as utter fodder, right? No, because it's clearly PIS. Trying to use PIS as a valid excuse only serves to show how desperate one is because they lack an argument.


Are you arguing that because something can be beaten by the combined might of Naruto + Sasuke + Juugo, something is fodder? Or Obito was stupid because his sword lost out to that? That makes no sense to me. Rationally we should take that as BSM Naruto + CSP-Susano'o Sasuke > the Sword Obito could personally manifest and Obito's sword probably isn't going to work against enemies as strong as BSM Naruto + CSP-Susano'o Sasuke.




> Amaterasu has failed at times because the plot demanded it to. That doesn't change what the ability of the jutsu entails, which is igniting anything in it's line of sight on fire and it continuing to burn and with no conventional way of putting the flames out unless one seals them or absorbs them (preta path)


Everything in the manga is plot, so that is a silly argument to me. However Amaterasu itself doesn't ever work, because the Ninja it's gone up against are at a level where they can deal with a Jutsu on the level of Amaterasu with one technique or another, w/o being one shotted. It's really that simple. There is no just only this counter works or that counter works, we've seen a wide array of counters to the technique. 

It's completely silly to me to sit here and say that a Shinobi who has never gone up against anything like Amaterasu and quite frankly had very little time to accumulate feats, hasn't shown a specific counter to Amaterasu so they'd be one-shotted, even though we know that isn't going to happen. I mean fuck you might as well sit here and argue Itachi beats Kaguya w/ Amaterasu. Or heck let me ask you this, how does EMS Madara counter Amaterasu w/o knowledge, or does he just loose to it too.


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## Rob (Mar 8, 2014)

I was trying to keep up with the thread... but there is way too much shit to read. 

Can someone summarize...


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That has never been supported. Naruto may have surpassed Minato, but his benchmarks have nothing to do with Minato & Kushina's respective strength.


Why do you say that? Literally all of Naruto's benchmarks have been above Naruto surpassing them in specific Jutsu or areas.



> I mean, during the flashback, look at how helpless Kushina was once Obito distracted Minato. That was basically Obito's entire plan; remove Minato from the picture so he can take Kushina away....which he casually did. There is absolutely no possible way that child birth and seal trouble overcame her Uzumaki resilience and rendered her incapable to fight when even a Bijuu extraction failed at that....


Except we literally were shown that it was child-birth & more importantly the seal loosening that rendered here unable to fight. Minato blatantly says she's exhausted from child birth here:
HERE 

And we are blatantly shown the seal releasing causing Kushina to be incapacitated further here:
HERE 

Using the fact that under those conditions she couldn't stop a shinobi of Obito's stature as evidence of anything, is a pretty disingenuous point to make.


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## Rocky (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Except we literally were shown that it was child-birth & more importantly the seal loosening that rendered here unable to fight. Minato blatantly says she's exhausted from child birth here:
> this
> 
> And we are blatantly shown the seal releasing causing Kushina to be incapacitated further here:
> ...




I'm sure the usually fatal Bijuu extraction had her pretty exhausted as well. She was in worse shape then, and could still use her high level techniques.

Didn't stop her from "beating Kurama."


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> PIS is Plot Induced Stupidity. I'm never one to argue for PIS, since I think it's simply a matter of characterization; whether done poorly or otherwise, is another matter entirely.



Yet here you are arguing it as amaterasu failing at certain times is PIS. 



> Are you arguing that because something can be beaten by the combined might of Naruto + Sasuke + Juugo, something is fodder? Or Obito was stupid because his sword lost out to that? That makes no sense to me. Rationally we should take that as BSM Naruto + CSP-Susano'o Sasuke > the Sword Obito could personally manifest and Obito's sword probably isn't going to work against enemies as strong as BSM Naruto + CSP-Susano'o Sasuke.



Obito was far stronger than all of them and had a sword which is capable of destroying everything, so no, Sasuke and Naruto shouldn't have pierced it as easily as they did. It was utter PIS and trying to argue otherwise is laughable. 



> Everything in the manga is plot, so that is a silly argument to me. However Amaterasu itself doesn't ever work, because the Ninja it's gone up against are at a level where they can deal with a Jutsu on the level of Amaterasu with one technique or another, w/o being one shotted. It's really that simple. There is no just only this counter works or that counter works, we've seen a wide array of counters to the technique.



And they need a specific counter for it (speed, absorbtion, etc,). Kushina has shown no such counter and the only argument you've provided for her countering it is that's it's failed before. That's no argument and you know it. 



> It's completely silly to me to sit here and say that a Shinobi who has never gone up against anything like Amaterasu and quite frankly had very little time to accumulate feats, hasn't shown a specific counter to Amaterasu so they'd be one-shotted, even though we know that isn't going to happen. I mean fuck you might as well sit here and argue Itachi beats Kaguya w/ Amaterasu. Or heck let me ask you this, how does EMS Madara counter Amaterasu w/o knowledge, or does he just loose to it too.



I don't really care how silly you find it. The shinboi you've mentioned are portrayed to be above Itachi. Kushina isn't. 

Once again, PIS isn't nor will it ever be a valid excuse, so you can keep on with your rambling, but it won't change anything as all you're doing is saying amaterasu has failed before so it's sure to fail again, which isn't an argument and you know it.


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## Magicbullet (Mar 8, 2014)

With Totsuka it's hard to tell who Itachi couldn't beat. He'd only need to hit near anyone once. I guess they'd need to be able to overwhelm him very quickly, or avoid him/fight indirectly.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 8, 2014)

Magicbullet said:


> With Totsuka it's hard to tell who Itachi couldn't beat. He'd only need to hit near anyone once.



Same can be said about Oonoki with jinton and yet he got schooled by Madara and by a weak clone of Hashirama


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'm sure the usually fatal Bijuu extraction had her pretty exhausted as well. She was in worse shape then, and could still use her high level techniques.
> 
> Didn't stop her from "beating Kurama."


This literally was the same thing as the Bijuu extraction; the seal was weakened to the point that Kurama was escaping from the seal. And no she was not able to use Jutsu right after the extraction, she recovered a bit and than could use Jutsu.


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## Magicbullet (Mar 8, 2014)

Jinton can actually be countered, though through extraordinary means.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 8, 2014)

Magicbullet said:


> Jinton can actually be countered, though through extraordinary means.



Same with totsuka sword


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## Magicbullet (Mar 8, 2014)

How do you figure that? 

To be fair, we've never seen much of it other than oneshots, so I have no idea how it could be countered.


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## Fiiction (Mar 8, 2014)

For the people saying itachi can defeat one eyed rinnegan madara you sound dumb...
If they ever fought, amaterasu will just get absorbed and down talked like Madara did sasuke (who is better at amaterasu than itachi ever was)
And if itachi tried tsukuyomi, madara will just break out of it since he's an EMS/Rinnegan user. (Itachi stated that you need MS to break out of tsukyomi).
Only chance itachi has at beating is tostuka and doubt it can reach the top of PS's head. Even without that, I don't see Madara getting hit at all because if his speed and reactions.
Reflexes: Madara >> itachi
Speed: Madara.. list goes on.
Itachi is not, and was never on the level of any form of madara. Itachi fapboys just accept it.

P.s I know I'm getting neg reps LOL.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 8, 2014)

Magicbullet said:


> How do you figure that?
> 
> To be fair, we've never seen much of it other than oneshots, so I have no idea how it could be countered.



The same way you figure jinton can be countered 

On a serious note there are MANY ways to counter totsuka. I will share them with you once you tell me how you figure jinton can be countered


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Yet here you are arguing it as amaterasu failing at certain times is PIS.


Please find me where i'm saying that a character's stupidity is the reason Amaterasu would fail. Go on i'm waiting.



> Obito was far stronger than all of them and had a sword which is capable of destroying everything, so no, Sasuke and Naruto shouldn't have pierced it as easily as they did. It was utter PIS and trying to argue otherwise is laughable.


How was it due to Obito being stupid that his sword was overcome in a direct clash? We are blatantly shown that Naruto + Sasuke > the sword, so no it was not stronger than them.



> And they need a specific counter for it (speed, absorbtion, etc,). Kushina has shown no such counter


So Kaguya looses to Amaterasu because she's shown no counter. We can't use common sense and conclude that Kaguya being clearly hyped to a level far beyond Itachi and would be able to handle a Jutsu of Amaterasu's stature.  Okay whatever buddy.



> and the only argument you've provided for her countering it is that's it's failed before. That's no argument and you know it.


Actually I provided a feat-based argument, which you've chosen to ignore multiple times. Also my argument isn't that it failed before, it's that the expectations of it being a one-shot are quite ridiculous when we've consistently seen it fail to one-shot higher-Tier shinobi. The difference being it's failed not once, not twice, but multiple times, and I'm not calling the Jutsu itself a failure just the idea that it's going to one-shot. 



> I don't really care how silly you find it. The shinboi you've mentioned are portrayed to be above Itachi. Kushina isn't.




I don't care whether you think someone who can solo Kurama when weakened and is indicated to be stronger than Naruto Post-KCM does not have the portrayal to put them above Itachi. What I care about is the fact that portrayal can be used as a valid means of discussion. You used it right there, yourself, and than are turning around and bitching about me doing the same. Sorry, but pot meet kettle


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## Trojan (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin.

When Naruto get full Kurama, why would Kishi compare him to Kushina? It's true that Kushina had 100% Kurama, but both Naruto and Minato are better than her with their 50% Kurama because Kushina did not even use 100% Kurama nor was she able to control or work with him.

As for the chakra sharing jutsu, Kurama's statement was about base Minato since he never imagined that Minato will  use his other half, but when Minato got it he was able to share a huge amount of chakra that was enough to make Naruto goes to BM twice. Also, notice that Kurama compared Naruto to his parents in that regard prove that Kushina couldn't use Kurama's chakra in that matter, or else he wouldn't have put Minato in her class, nor would say that Naruto has surpassed her because Naruto's chakra even with 50% Kurama is lesser. 

As for speed Naruto really did not surpass Minato's speed either because FTG is still faster, and two he was compared to base Minato, however, Minato with Kurama will logically be faster than Naruto with Kurama even without his FTG. 

Although, Naruto might get the chakra chains and be compared to Kushina, but he also might get S/T jutsus and be compared to his father. It's true that Naruto might learn sealing jutsu and be compared to Kushina (and Minato actually), but he also might learn "That jutsu" if it does exist and be compared to Minato. So, those possibilities are still there. 

As your thinking about the manga perspective, and that case, Minato is Naruto's benchmark, and has always been like that. If we started from the start, 

1- The manga started with Minato, and when Naruto talked with Iruka about the Hokages, it was Minato who he cared about.
2- When Jiraiya taught him the summoning jutsu, he (or the frog?) also compared him to Minato.
3- When Naruto learned that Rasengan Tsunade compared him to Minato.
4- When they were leaving Konoha, Naruto looked up to Minato.
5- When he learned FRS, kakashi compared him to Minato
6- When he learned SM, Pa compared him to Minato, and Jiraiya.
7- When he first used his speed, B compared him to Minato.
8- when he was against A, they (A, B, Tsunade) compared him to Minato.
9- when he used his speed with BM, kakashi compared him to Minato.
10- when he used the chakra sharing, Kurama compared him to Minato, and Kushina. 

and literally, almost every time starting from part 2, the fans thought Naruto surpassed Minato, and he start to have another benchmark, just for Kishi to put even more, and this more than half the manga. When they though the chapter 617 was the last time, Minato returned and he also showed KCM, and BM to make the comparison between them go even further.   

yeah, he was compared to other people, but they are hardly about comparing him to them about power or stuff, like Minato compared him to his mother, about the feeling that he feels about fighting along side them.
Tobirama compared Naruto to Hashi, but again, it was not for power as well, the only few times kishi compared Naruto to hashi it was about their personality

1- when obito said he sees Hashi's WoF inside Naruto.
2- Tobirama said they are stupid, goofy, brat..etc
3- Tobirama again said that Naruto is more stupid than Hashi.
4- Tsunade said Hashi's WoF is passed to Naruto

...etc

or at least that what I see, even Minato's personality was changed to be the same like Naruto's personality as well, somehow. U_U


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

@New Folder
Don't have time to go through such a lengthy post right now. I suggest you VM me this post and ill try to VM you back later


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Show me one panel that says Kurama is specifically weak to Uzamaki Chains. Otherwise this is fanfiction.



I wouldn't say that, but Uzumaki chains are similar to outer path chains, and Kushina mentioned dragging the Kyuubi inside her. Same as outerpath chains dragging Bijuu inside Gedo.

It is more of a product of deductive reasoning.



> Show me one panel of Itachi controlling any Bijuu w/ MS otherwise this is fanfiction. A shinobi having the capability to do something with MS, doesn't mean Itachi had that capability to use said ability, land said ability on the Fox, or defeat the fox during the duration of that ability.



I guess a sharingan user who hasn't  shown sharingan precog on panel means that they can't benefit from it. That means guys like Madara or Itachi don't have sharingan precog.
Flawless logic. :ignoramus

FYI :  Link removed



> Also it's the not the same thing, since MS specifically grants control over the Kyuubi, to those that can use MS that way. Nothing is stated saying Uzamaki chains do the same.



They are basically similar tools created to accomplish a similar thing. 

I think it is fair to say that Itachi >> Kyuubi

Now where does that leave us with Itachi and Kushina ?


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## PAWS (Mar 8, 2014)

Kakashi. Kamui snip.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 8, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Kakashi. Kamui snip.



Amaterasu sweep


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## PAWS (Mar 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Amaterasu sweep



Kamui is faster but even if it isnt. Tobi got caught with it and used Kamui to escape. Kamui > Amaterasu.


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## Trojan (Mar 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Amaterasu sweep



Kakashi was able to teleport the Rasengan even after it touched his body, why wouldn't he be able to teleport the Amaterasu? @.@


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I wouldn't say that, but Uzumaki chains are similar to outer path chains, and Kushina mentioned dragging the Kyuubi inside her. Same as outerpath chains dragging Bijuu inside Gedo.
> 
> It is more of a product of deductive reasoning.


Please show me a panel stating that the Bijuu are specifically weak to the outer path chains, or again that is fanfiction. 



> guess a sharingan user who hasn't shown sharingan precog on panel means that they can't benefit from it. That means guys like Madara or Itachi don't have sharingan precog.
> Flawless logic


Sharingan-Precog was demonstrated to awaken the moment that someone gains Three-Tome Sharingan; Show me the panel where Kyuubi control was shown to be gained the moment that someone awakens MS, otherwise it's fanfiction.



> Link removed


Sasuke could have literally said the same thing about Susano'o, "Blindness, that's the price you pay for Susano'o",  it would not mean every MS users can automatically use Susano'o.  So that does not support your fanfiction.



> They are basically similar tools created to accomplish a similar thing.


Please explain to me how the MS ability to control the Fox works...than we can talk how similar it is.



> I think it is fair to say that Itachi >> Kyuubi


Fanfiction, until you can explain how the ability to control the Fox works, prove Itachi can utilize it with no experience whatsoever on the Fox, etc....



> Now where does that leave us with Itachi and Kushina ?


Kushina was able to beat the Fox when weakened to greatest extent out of any Naruto character. Itachi is only able to beat the fox according to your fanfiction.


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## Fiiction (Mar 8, 2014)

Exactly. Amaterasu is useless compared to Kamui. And it can be absorbed. Preta path > amaterasu.


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## Jagger (Mar 8, 2014)

Saying Kushina can beat Itachi due feats she hasn't shown and mostly relying on portrayal of things we never saw being confirmed is like still believing nowadays that Jiraiya is somehow capable of beating a more healthy Itachi with a better eyesight and Kisame at the same time without Sage Mode being activated at all.

Kushina may have been impressive, but what people are implying here is one huge stretch.

And lol at "Prime Hiruzen".



Fiiction said:


> Exactly. Amaterasu is useless compared to Kamui. And it can be absorbed. Preta path > amaterasu.


Kamui can still be countered. Just because a jutsu can be countered doesn't make it useless.


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## ARGUS (Mar 8, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Kamui can still be countered. Just because a jutsu can be countered doesn't make it useless.



Yes but the amount of ppl who can counter to kamui are very very few,,as Amaterasu on the other hand can be countered by pretty much everyone in the top tier,,,,


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## Jagger (Mar 8, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> Yes but the amount of ppl who can counter to kamui are very very few,,as Amaterasu on the other hand can be countered by pretty much everyone in the top tier,,,,


If it lands, of course.

Sure, Kamui is better than Amaterasu in certain aspects, but it doesn't make the latter less powerful. Both are constantly c-blocked in the manga.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Saying Kushina can beat Itachi due feats she hasn't shown and mostly relying on portrayal of things we never saw being confirmed is like still believing nowadays that Jiraiya is somehow capable of beating a more healthy Itachi with a better eyesight and Kisame at the same time without Sage Mode being activated at all.
> 
> Kushina may have been impressive, but what people are implying here is one huge stretch.
> 
> ...


Yeah believing someone who defeated Kurama when extremely weakened can beat Itachi is a huge stretch. Stop your wanking


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## Jagger (Mar 8, 2014)

>Isn't even an Itachi fan.
>Is wanking him.



I can perfectly acknowledge that Itachi isn't the strongest character in the series nor is among the strongest with obviously stronger characters than him. However, the point you're trying to make is mostly based on the typical A>B>C logic. Sure, feats isn't everything when it comes to a healthy debate or else, we'd be seeing people saying Lee > Nagato or Itachi because the former kicked Edo Madara in half. However, your point makes a larger stretch.

Kushina can restrain the Kyuubi. I never disagreed with that. However, Itachi should be capable of doing the same through genjutsu while Nagato can't due disadvantages of capturing such kind of targets. Does that mean Itachi > Nagato?

I'm not arguing this with you, though.

Edit: To clarify myself, I don't consider you an idiot.  Just that this debate will be far too long and neither would convice the other one.


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## The End (Mar 8, 2014)

Sound 4 win easily.


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## Azula (Mar 8, 2014)

Kushina would impale itachi or cut him to pieces with chakra chains by the time he is finished charging up amaterasu, even killer bee almost hit him with his sword if it wasn't for nagato's shinra tensei


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Jagger said:


> >Isn't even an Itachi fan.
> >Is wanking him.
> 
> 
> ...


When has Itachi demonstrated the ability to control Kurama, and if you cite the general statement that MS can give such an ability than please explain to me w/ manga-cannon facts

A) How that ability works
B) Where Itachi was stated/shown to have mastered said MS ability
C) How Itachi can execute that ability on Kurama
D) How Itachi can defeat Kurama after exercising said ability

You say your not wanking Itachi, but your just granting him the ability to solo the Fox with him having no such feats and offering no explanation for how it's possible or how it works.

We've actually seen Kushina demonstrate and tell us how she'd defeat the Fox, in an extremely weakened state no-less. Yet your comparing this to totally unsubstantiated claim that Itachi can do the same, how is that fair or unbiased? 

And it's not A>B>C logic it's A (Kushina) >>> B (Kurama) >>>>>>>>> C (Itachi), which is different, and it's not like the manga even tells us that Kushina's abilities have a natural advantage over kurama. There's a reason everyone accepted Rikudo was stronger than Itachi after we were told nothing more than he was able to defeat Juubi, because it was a feat far outstripping anything Itachi has demonstrated, it's the same w/ Kushina's feat against Kurama. Further supported by her being stated stronger than KCM Naruto, who Itachi would be lucky to be considered in the same league w/ let alone stronger than.


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## Ersa (Mar 8, 2014)

MS controls the Kyuubi, Sasuke who is inferior to Itachi in genjutsu suppressed a portion of the Kyuubi with just base Sharingan. To suggest Itachi can't control the Kyuubi is no different from suggesting Rinnegan Obito can't use Human Path. But have statements saying they can but they've never actually done it.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> MS controls the Kyuubi, Sasuke who is inferior to Itachi in genjutsu suppressed a portion of the Kyuubi with just base Sharingan. To suggest Itachi can't control the Kyuubi is no different from suggesting Rinnegan Obito can't use Human Path. But have statements saying they can but they've never actually done it.



No Itachi does not have statements saying he can. There are statements saying MS can, which is no different than saying MS can allow someone to generate Susano'o, yet this is not the case for everyone. And again w/o an explanation on how MS-Kyuubi control works we do not know whether Itachi could execute it on Kurama before being obliterated or whether he could defeat Kurama during it's duration. 

Sasuke surpressing a bit of chakra that leak from the seal in no way is indicative of Itachi being able to deal w/ the entire Kurama. Firstly Sasuke's suppression feat may be no transversive to Itachi, considering Sasuke's chakra was compared to Madara's after that feat, and Itachi is no Madara. Secondly even if it was Sasuke surpressed a mere fragment of 50% Kurama, which is not transversive to 100% Kurama


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## Trojan (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin





> Further supported by her being stated stronger than KCM Naruto, who Itachi would be lucky to be considered in the same league w/ let alone stronger than.



Naruto at that point was not really as strong as the current KCM. He couldn't use his speed properly, couldn't use chakra arms, the different kind of Rasengans, Kurama was talking from his chakra...etc


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## Jagger (Mar 9, 2014)

-Azula- said:


> Kushina would impale itachi or cut him to pieces with chakra chains by the time he is finished charging up amaterasu, even killer bee almost hit him with his sword if it wasn't for nagato's shinra tensei


Because Itachi couldn't have dodge them, right? Because it was even Itachi the one preparing Amaterasu, but not the control Edo Tensei had over his body, right? Of course, I'm just making up stuff and I'm just insane.


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## Jagger (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> When has Itachi demonstrated the ability to control Kurama, and if you cite the general statement that MS can give such an ability than please explain to me w/ manga-cannon facts


Sasuke has never shown the ability to control the Kyuubi. Does it mean he can't? I honestly see no reason to believe Itachi can't, somehow, control the fox despite him being portrayed repeatedly as one of the best Genjutsu users in the manga?



> A) How that ability works
> B) Where Itachi was stated/shown to have mastered said MS ability
> C) How Itachi can execute that ability on Kurama
> D) How Itachi can defeat Kurama after exercising said ability


A) I don't think I need to explain to you how Genjutsu works.

B) Itachi has been shown the skill to manipulate victim's time perception with his Tsukuyomi. Only one Genjutsu has been stated to be stronger than his and that is Kotoamatsukami (Obito's and Madara's eternal Tsukuyomi are pretty much a genjutsu powered-up by the Juubi's monstrous chakra).

C) The same way Obito and Madara manipulated Kurama without even moving a muscle. By looking into the beast's eyes or are you telling me Kurama is suddenly going to get smart and not look into his eyes despite he blatantly did the same with Obito despite what happened with Madara?

D) How can Kushina do it, though? All she can do is seal the beast at best inside of her as she hasn't shown any kind of seals suggesting she can seal the beast somewhere else as if in some sort of scroll and even then, can't Itachi do the same with the Totsuka Blade or just burn the beast until there's nothing left?

I'm not saying Itachi's strength is higher than Kurama's because it isn't. But he's been granted an ocular ability capable of controlling such large target.



> You say your not wanking Itachi, but your just granting him the ability to solo the Fox with him having no such feats and offering no explanation for how it's possible or how it works.


Do I need a statement of Sasuke surpassing Itachi to know the former has already done that? Sometimes, things just need a bit of common sense to work. That's what I'm trying to explain in here.



> We've actually seen Kushina demonstrate and tell us how she'd defeat the Fox, in an extremely weakened state no-less. Yet your comparing this to totally unsubstantiated claim that Itachi can do the same, how is that fair or unbiased?


That means her Uzumaki heritage gives her an advantage over the Kyuubi the same way it does to Sasuke or any other skilled Genjutsu user over a Bijuu. 

Also, if I remember correctly, didn't the chains started to get loose which allowed Kurama to stab them both with one of his nails?



> And it's not A>B>C logic it's A (Kushina) >>> B (Kurama) >>>>>>>>> C (Itachi), which is different, and it's not like the manga even tells us that Kushina's abilities have a natural advantage over kurama. There's a reason everyone accepted Rikudo was stronger than Itachi after we were told nothing more than he was able to defeat Juubi, because it was a feat far outstripping anything Itachi has demonstrated, it's the same w/ Kushina's feat against Kurama. Further supported by her being stated stronger than KCM Naruto, who Itachi would be lucky to be considered in the same league w/ let alone stronger than.


Kushina's abilities are a natural advantage over a Bijuu. There's no other way too looking at it. Just like the Sharingan granted Obito the ability to control the Kyuubi despite that, without it, Obito wouldn't have been capable of defeating the Kyuubi or restrain it. Just like Hashirama's Mokuton allowed him to perfectly control and restrain several Bijuu to later give them away to the other nations. 

Sometimes, you're just born gifted which gives you an advantage over cetain shinobi.

Also, you just applied an "A>B and B>C, thus, A>C" logic which is just what I said.


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## Azula (Mar 9, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Because Itachi couldn't have dodge them, right?



if he is prepping for amaterasu then he cannot as shown in the manga, some one  else needs to do it as shown in the manga 



> Because it was even Itachi the one preparing Amaterasu, but not the control Edo Tensei had over his body



funny, now edo itachi's feats are not itachi's feats but edo tensei's feats


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 9, 2014)

PAWS said:


> Kamui is faster but even if it isnt. Tobi got caught with it and used Kamui to escape. Kamui > Amaterasu.



If you can explain how Kamui can be used to escape Amaterasu then I'll am willing to agree with you.



New Folder said:


> Kakashi was able to teleport the Rasengan even after it touched his body, why wouldn't he be able to teleport the Amaterasu? @.@



How is he going to teleport Amaterasu off his burning flesh, especially when his whole torso or even face for that matter is on fire ? 



Turrin said:


> Please show me a panel stating that the Bijuu are specifically weak to the outer path chains, or again that is fanfiction.



Common sense. If those chains can replicate that feat on everyone else, why did Tobi bother fighting Naruto & Co ? Why not just use chains on them and bind them ? 



> Sharingan-Precog was demonstrated to awaken the moment that someone gains Three-Tome Sharingan; Show me the panel where Kyuubi control was shown to be gained the moment that someone awakens MS, otherwise it's fanfiction.


I already showed you in the scan I posted.

It is stated that MS grants Kyuubi control. What else do you need ? 




> Sasuke could have literally said the same thing about Susano'o, "Blindness, that's the price you pay for Susano'o",  it would not mean every MS users can automatically use Susano'o.  So that does not support your fanfiction.


Kyuubi control is not a specific MS jutsu like Susano'o, so I doubt it would work like that.

I think the sharingan precog example works better here given they are universal abilities that sharingan grants.



> Please explain to me how the MS ability to control the Fox works...than we can talk how similar it is.


I am talking in princible. They aren't the same thing, but they accomplish a similar goal. To effectively restrain/put down the fox without needing to fight him. 




> Fanfiction, until you can explain how the ability to control the Fox works, prove Itachi can utilize it with no experience whatsoever on the Fox, etc....


I don't understand what you mean by that, but I already proved that Itachi can use it, by showing you the scan which told us that MS users can control Kyuubi.



> Kushina was able to beat the Fox when weakened to greatest extent out of any Naruto character. Itachi is only able to beat the fox according to your fanfiction.



Beat ? You mean restrain. I don't remember the two fighting at all. Which didn't even fully work, Kyuubi killed both Kushina and Minato afterwards.


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## Lawrence777 (Mar 9, 2014)

> You say your not wanking Itachi, but your just granting him the ability to solo the Fox with him having no such feats and offering no explanation for how it's possible or how it works.


Ironically, this sounds eerily similar to the argument I used yesterweek, of how just because Minato had SM, =/= he should be ascribed every SM feat  .


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Sasuke has never shown the ability to control the Kyuubi. Does it mean he can't?


No it means until we get an explanation for how Kurama-Control ability works, we don't know if he could.



> I honestly see no reason to believe Itachi can't, somehow, control the fox despite him being portrayed repeatedly as one of the best Genjutsu users in the manga?


Is Genjutsu how the Fox is controlled? Can you prove that?



> I don't think I need to explain to you how Genjutsu works.


I think you need to prove that it is simply Genjtusu that controls the Fox. I mean why would Genjtusu be released, from Minato using a Contract-seal on Obito?



> The same way Obito and Madara manipulated Kurama without even moving a muscle. By looking into the beast's eyes or are you telling me Kurama is suddenly going to get smart and not look into his eyes despite he blatantly did the same with Obito despite what happened with Madara?


This is another reason why the Genjutsu explanation doesn't make much sense, because Kurama is smart, so why would he keep looking into Uchiha's eyes? I mean Obito makes sense because he was tied down at the time, but multiple times against Madara?



> How can Kushina do it, though? All she can do is seal the beast at best inside of her as she hasn't shown any kind of seals suggesting she can seal the beast somewhere else as if in some sort of scroll and even then, can't Itachi do the same with the Totsuka Blade or just burn the beast until there's nothing left?


Where are Totsuka Blades feats of sealing anything comparable to Kurama? Amaterasu, might work and it might not depending on how the control factor works.



> Do I need a statement of Sasuke surpassing Itachi to know the former has already done that? Sometimes, things just need a bit of common sense to work. That's what I'm trying to explain in here.


It's not common sense though. We've never gotten an explanation for how Kyuubi-control works and we've never seen a pure MS user do it. How are we suppose to evaluate Itachi based on that lack of info in comparison to Kushina?



> That means her Uzumaki heritage gives her an advantage over the Kyuubi the same way it does to Sasuke or any other skilled Genjutsu user over a Bijuu.
> 
> Also, if I remember correctly, didn't the chains started to get loose which allowed Kurama to stab them both with one of his nails?


Where does it state her Uzamaki heritage gave her an advantage in fighting Kurama. 



> Kushina's abilities are a natural advantage over a Bijuu. There's no other way too looking at it. Just like the Sharingan granted Obito the ability to control the Kyuubi despite that, without it, Obito wouldn't have been capable of defeating the Kyuubi or restrain it. Just like Hashirama's Mokuton allowed him to perfectly control and restrain several Bijuu to later give them away to the other nations.


Where is it stated that Kushina's abilities are a natural advantage over a Bijuu?


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Common sense. If those chains can replicate that feat on everyone else, why did Tobi bother fighting Naruto & Co ? Why not just use chains on them and bind them ?


Because Naruto and company did not have the Black Rods in their necks like the Bijuu. Also we do not know if humans can be sealed in the GM. So dragging humans to GM would have been pointless. And no that isn't the chains working better against Bijuu, that is GM being specific to Bijuu since it's the Shell of the Juubi. 

This is of course assuming the Outer-Path chains are the same as Uzamaki Chains in the first place.



> I already showed you in the scan I posted.
> 
> It is stated that MS grants Kyuubi control. What else do you need ?


A panel stating that every MS user can do it and it's unlike every other MS ability which has had to be awakened and usually trained with before the person masters it.



> Kyuubi control is not a specific MS jutsu like Susano'o, so I doubt it would work like that.
> 
> I think the sharingan precog example works better here given they are universal abilities that sharingan grants.


Where is it stated that Kyuubi control is a universal Sharingan grant. All it says is MS-can grant that ability and MS can also grant specific Jutsu, but they need to be trained with and mastered.

I mean how come we didn't see Izuna or Madara using Kurama before Madara gained EMS



> I am talking in princible. They aren't the same thing, but they accomplish a similar goal. To effectively restrain/put down the fox without needing to fight him


Kushina did fight the fox



> Beat ? You mean restrain. I don't remember the two fighting at all. Which didn't even fully work, Kyuubi killed both Kushina and Minato afterwards.


Using Uzamaki Chains, Barriers, etc... is fighting. That's how Uzamaki like Kushina fight, Karin demonstrated this against Shin SuuSenju


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## Dominus (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Is Genjutsu how the Fox is controlled? Can you prove that?



I'm pretty sure it's genjutsu, how else would they control it?

[sp=Look at the SFX]


[/sp]


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I'm pretty sure it's genjutsu, how else would they control it?
> 
> [sp=Look at the SFX]
> 
> ...


Here's the thing I believe part of it is Genjutsu, but the fact that contract-seal breaks control over the Fox and the fact that Madara used the Fox as a summon, where I doubt every time Madara simply went through the motions of summoning the Fox, making eye contact, and casting the illusion, with the Fox doing nothing to stop it even w/ prior knowledge, make it hard for me to believe that Genjutsu is thee only factor at play here. Otherwise we have to believe the Fox is an idiot and that contract seal can counter all illusions for some random reason. 

And that's the problem, we simply don't know how this works completely, so to simply say Itachi could do so casually against Kurama; let alone comparing to Kushina is really not something we can do at this point.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Because Naruto and company did not have the Black Rods in their necks like the Bijuu. Also we do not know if humans can be sealed in the GM. So dragging humans to GM would have been pointless. And no that isn't the chains working better against Bijuu, that is GM being specific to Bijuu since it's the Shell of the Juubi.
> 
> This is of course assuming the Outer-Path chains are the same as Uzamaki Chains in the first place.



I think the black rods were used to "control" them, but chains were able to bind them without the rods as we've seen later when rods were removed from Son, and when Madara grabbed all 9 of them and dragged them in.
Again, I didn't say they are the same but they have similar characteristics. 

Regardless of the semantics,  I think we can agree that they are both tools that allow their users to bind the beasts without any need to directly fight them. 



> A panel stating that every MS user can do it and it's unlike every other MS ability which has had to be awakened and usually trained with before the person masters it.



Considering that Itachi's MS was fully mastered, I don't see any reason why he'd fail to control the Kyuubi.



> Where is it stated that Kyuubi control is a universal Sharingan grant. All it says is MS-can grant that ability and MS can also grant specific Jutsu, but they need to be trained with and mastered.


Lets review the facts. Manga says Ms grants Kyuubi control. 

Also in the databook, Sasuke's control over Manda is likened to the MS control over the Kyuubi.
Which implies that the MS control is a genjutsu trait. Actually it is proven when Obito 'control's Kyuubi and Kyuubi's eyes take the shape of sharingan, just like when Manda's eyes were taken that shape when Sasuke controlled him. 

Itachi being the best genjutsu user we've seen so far(even if you don't want to admit this we can at least say he is top 3), I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be able to control Kyuubi given he has all the prerequisites that were listed for Kyuubi control.




> I mean how come we didn't see Izuna or Madara using Kurama before Madara gained EMS


No idea. 
But we know that Obito was able to control Kyuubi and he doesn't have EMS. So we know for a fact that EMS isn't required to control Kyuubi.



> Kushina did fight the fox


Provide scans ? 



> Using Uzamaki Chains, Barriers, etc... is fighting.


They never fought. She released the chains and restrained Kyuubi for a short while. 



> That's how Uzamaki like Kushina fight, Karin demonstrated this against Shin SuuSenju



We've seen her launch chains on an immobile target, actually didn't see how the fight went down afterwards.

I wouldn't consider the chains as a measure for strength before I actually see them used in a fight and see them being effective on anything other than a Bijuu.


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## Stermor (Mar 9, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Like I said, I'm shit with Naruto-power-levels, but Gaara beating him just seemed.... Odd.



what is itachi going to do against a gaara with sand capable of blocking amaterasu, and no need for line of sight..

itachi has no real method of hurting gaara barring the first 2 seconds of the fight before gaara flys.. from then on it just becomes how long can itachi last before gaara buries him.. 

as for the people itachi can't beat. are madara/obito/kakashi/naruto and bee. 

the rest he can all possible beat using tsukiyomi regardless that hitting somebody like hashi or minato is hell freezing over moment.. 

naruto and bee even if they got hit by tsukiyomi (unlikely but oh well) there bijuu still stomps itachi afterwards.. 

kakashi because kakashi has better feats so in a matchup he will be able to use kamui faster then itachi tsukiyomi.. 

obito and madara because of lol uchiha.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think the black rods were used to "control" them, but chains were able to bind them without the rods as we've seen later when rods were removed from Son, and when Madara grabbed all 9 of them and dragged them in.
> Again, I didn't say they are the same but they have similar characteristics.
> 
> Regardless of the semantics,  I think we can agree that they are both tools that allow their users to bind the beasts without any need to directly fight them.


No we can't agree, as your essentially saying anyone whose uses a binding Jutsu is not fighting the person they utilize that Jutsu against. Which is not something I agree with. Kushina used a Jutus and had the Fox defeated; that is fighting the Fox, as the Fox had the opportunity to defend itself from that Jutsu and failed. This is no different than any other battle.

The only way any ability could by pass battle, is if there was literally nothing that specifically Kurama could do to defend himself against a certain ability. However we've actually seen that Kurama can indeed interact w/ the chains and defend himself from them. Him getting caught by the chains is not different than someone getting caught and defeated by Jiriaya's Yomi Numa or Itachi's Binding Genjutsu.



> Considering that Itachi's MS was fully mastered, I don't see any reason why he'd fail to control the Kyuubi.


Where was Itachi's MS stated to be fully mastered. Itachi demonstrated high mastery in the abilities he utilized, but that doesn't mean he mastered everything to do w/ MS. 



> Lets review the facts. Manga says Ms grants Kyuubi control.
> 
> Also in the databook, Sasuke's control over Manda is likened to the MS control over the Kyuubi.
> Which implies that the MS control is a genjutsu trait. Actually it is proven when Obito 'control's Kyuubi and Kyuubi's eyes take the shape of sharingan, just like when Manda's eyes were taken that shape when Sasuke controlled him.
> ...


Here's the thing I believe part of it is Genjutsu, but the fact that contract-seal breaks control over the Fox and the fact that Madara used the Fox as a summon, where I doubt every time Madara simply went through the motions of summoning the Fox, making eye contact, and casting the illusion, with the Fox doing nothing to stop it even w/ prior knowledge, make it hard for me to believe that Genjutsu is thee only factor at play here. Otherwise we have to believe the Fox is an idiot and that contract seal can counter all illusions for some random reason. 

And that's the problem, we simply don't know how this works completely, so to simply say Itachi could do so casually against Kurama; let alone comparing to Kushina is really not something we can do at this point.



> No idea.
> But we know that Obito was able to control Kyuubi and he doesn't have EMS. So we know for a fact that EMS isn't required to control Kyuubi.


Obito also had Senju DNA tho. And that's not to say Senju DNA or EMS is required, but we know so little about how the ability A)works and B) how it works w/ MS, there are tons of possibilities.

A) What if you need Madara's like chakra to use MS to control the Kyuubi; than Itachi's out
B) What if you need to some how form a Summoning contract w/ it before using the MS control ability; than Itachi's out
C) What if it's two abilities utilized at the same time Genjutsu + another ability, and Itachi doesn't have that ability; than Itachi's out
D) What if Itachi can use the ability, but lacking Senju DNA and EMS it only works for an extreme brief period of time
E) What if the MS user goes blind in both eyes instantly from using this ability w/o Senju DNA or MS
F) What if Itachi can use this ability just fine, but he can't stack using this ability with other MS Jutsu like Susano'o or Amaterasu due to strain, and therefore can't actually have a chance to defeat Kurama
G) What if it is Just your typical Sharingan Genjutsu and Kurama wisens up avoiding eye contact, and obliterates itachi w/ a Bijuu Bom

And of course none of those possibilities could be true, but what is true is that there are too many unanswered questions here, to start comparing an ability we know little about and Itachi has never demonstrated to Kushina's performance.



> wouldn't consider the chains as a measure for strength before I actually see them used in a fight and see them being effective on anything other than a Bijuu.


We did see them used in a fight and even Fodder Karin was able to utilize the Chains to beat back Shin SuuSenju, what more do you need lol.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No we can't agree, as your essentially saying anyone whose uses a binding Jutsu is not fighting the person they utilize that Jutsu against. Which is not something I agree with. Kushina used a Jutus and had the Fox defeated; that is fighting the Fox, as the Fox had the opportunity to defend itself from that Jutsu and failed. This is no different than any other battle.



Like I said, until we can confirm that those chains are universally dangerous for any opponent, not just good for binding large immobile targets, then there is no way we can say that Kushina can defeat X with that technique.

Also, binding someone doesn't necessarily mean defeating them, I don't know who came up with that silly idea.

Shikamaru bound Kakuzu and Obito for a certain duration. That doesn't mean he fought with them or was capable of fighting them or was anywhere near 'defeating' them.



> The only way any ability could by pass battle, is if there was literally nothing that specifically Kurama could do to defend himself against a certain ability. However we've actually seen that Kurama can indeed interact w/ the chains and defend himself from them. Him getting caught by the chains is not different than someone getting caught and defeated by Jiriaya's Yomi Numa or Itachi's Binding Genjutsu.



But Kyuubi didn't attempt to do shit. Kushina hid the chains under the ground and basically ambushed Kyuubi. I am not even sure if Kyuubi was aware that he was being targeted by the chains and in no shape or form Kushina defeated Kyuubi with  that move. She had Kyuubi restrained for a while but Kyuubi wasn't hurt or anything and then he overpowered the chains and killed Minato & Kushina.




> Where was Itachi's MS stated to be fully mastered. Itachi demonstrated high mastery in the abilities he utilized, but that doesn't mean he mastered everything to do w/ MS.



The dude had Stage 4 Susano'o, what else does MS have to offer ? 

Once you master the abilities in both eyes, you can access susano'o and then you master Susano'o.  That is the sole process of Mastering MS as far as we know. 



> Here's the thing I believe part of it is Genjutsu, but the fact that contract-seal breaks control over the Fox and the fact that Madara used the Fox as a summon, where I doubt every time Madara simply went through the motions of summoning the Fox, making eye contact, and casting the illusion, with the Fox doing nothing to stop it even w/ prior knowledge, make it hard for me to believe that Genjutsu is thee only factor at play here. Otherwise we have to believe the Fox is an idiot and that contract seal can counter all illusions for some random reason.



Both Obito and Madara controlled the beast pre-contract.

Imo, contract might have to do with a few things. 

1 - It may be increasing the duration of the control over Kyuubi.
2 - It may be allowing the user to control the Kyuubi remotely(without being in the vicinity).
3 - or both 



> And that's the problem, we simply don't know how this works completely, so to simply say Itachi could do so casually against Kurama; let alone comparing to Kushina is really not something we can do at this point.



We don't have to know the exact mechanics. Not knowing the mechnaics doesn't discard what we already know. That it is some kind of a genjutsu and that MS grants the user the control over the Kyuubi.

Like I already mentioned, Itachi has the prerequsites to control the animal.

Any doubt you have is the product of your own imagination or your own denial.




> Obito also had Senju DNA tho. And that's not to say Senju DNA or EMS is required, but we know so little about how the ability A)works and B) how it works w/ MS, there are tons of possibilities.
> 
> A) What if you need Madara's like chakra to use MS to control the Kyuubi; than Itachi's out
> B) What if you need to some how form a Summoning contract w/ it before using the MS control ability; than Itachi's out
> ...



For someone who constantly blamed me for "fanfic", you surely have lots of  "imaginary what ifs" yourself 

Seriously, these are irrelevant details. If they were as relevant as the ones *Kishimoto directly told us*, they'd certainly be mentioned.

Lets just stick what we know for the sake of the discussion shall we ? 



> We did see them used in a fight and even Fodder Karin was able to utilize the Chains to beat back Shin SuuSenju, what more do you need lol.



Again, we only saw Karin unleash them on an immobile wood construct and didn't see what effect they actually had on the statue.


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## Rob (Mar 9, 2014)

Keeping up with the NBD is harder than Nardo's boner for Sasuke


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

> Lets just stick what we know for the sake of the discussion shall we ?


Okay fine. What we know

1) Itachi has never demonstrated the ability to control Kurama or anything even remotely comparable
2) MS is stated to have the ability to control Kurama, but never is stated that every MS user can awaken the ability
3)We know nothing about the toll this ability takes on the user, the duration, etc... 
4) Most importantly we do not know enough about this ability to actually begin to deconstruct how a battle between an MS user with said ability vs Kurama would actually go down

Simply put we don't know enough to make the leap that Itachi would perform as well as a half-dead Kushina against Kurama. And even if he did he'd be performing as well as a half-dead Kushina LOL, and that in no way helps his cause. 

And you can't use Kishimoto would have told us as a defense, because Kishimoto has specifically avoided going into detail at all about how the MS-Kyuubi-Control works, and it's not because he wants readers to assume gee any MS users could casually solo Kurama, it's because he specifically is leaving that as a mystery to be fleshed out later.


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## babaGAReeb (Mar 9, 2014)

there are a few but itachis crow beats itachi 100% of da time


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Simply put we don't know enough to *make the leap* that Itachi would perform as well as a half-dead Kushina against Kurama.



The fact that you think it'd be a leap to assume that Itachi'd do as well as a near dead Kushina with an ability that is said to outright control(not just bind!) Kurama, shows how extremely biased and close minded you are. 


I'd say a near dead Itachi would do better against Kurama than a full powered Kushina, based on feats and portrayal.

Refute it if you can.


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## Jagger (Mar 9, 2014)

So we speculate about Kushina's possible abilities, but we can't speculate about Itachi's possible abilities of controlling the Kyuubi despite it shouldn't take much of brain cells to figure out that such feat isn't leagues above him despite he was constantly praised for his genjutsu skills.

Seems like a bit fair, huh?


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## Dominus (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Here's the thing I believe part of it is Genjutsu, but the fact that contract-seal breaks control over the Fox and the fact that Madara used the Fox as a summon, where I doubt every time Madara simply went through the motions of summoning the Fox, making eye contact, and casting the illusion, with the Fox doing nothing to stop it even w/ prior knowledge, make it hard for me to believe that Genjutsu is thee only factor at play here. Otherwise we have to believe the Fox is an idiot and that contract seal can counter all illusions for some random reason.
> 
> And that's the problem, we simply don't know how this works completely, so to simply say Itachi could do so casually against Kurama; let alone comparing to Kushina is really not something we can do at this point.



You don't need to summon Kurama to be able to control it. We've seen Obito controlling Kurama and using it to attack Kushina the moment he trapped it within his illusion before he summoned it in Konoha.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

Jagger said:


> So we speculate about Kushina's possible abilities, but we can't speculate about Itachi's possible abilities of controlling the Kyuubi despite it shouldn't take much of brain cells to figure out that such feat isn't leagues above him despite he was constantly praised for his genjutsu skills.
> 
> Seems like a bit fair, huh?


Let's look at this in a fair light

Have we seen Itachi fight Kurama; no
Have we seen half-dead Kushina fight Kurama; Yes
Haves we seen Itachi have the upper hand on Kurama; no
Have we seen half-dead Kushina have the upper hand on Kurama; yes
Has Itachi stated he can defeat Kurama; no
Has half-dead Kushina someone with great deal of knowledge state she could defeat Kurama; yes
Has anyone agreed Itachi has the ability to defeat Kurama; No, the best we got is that MS can grant the ability, but we don't know if Itachi mastered the ability or could perform it on the Fox
Has anyone agreed half-dead Kushina has the ability to defeat Kurama; Yes, Minato who also has intricate knowledge on the Fox

Given this, should the fair and unbiased take away be 
1) Lolz Itachi can beat the Fox no problem, out performing Kushina completely
or
2) half-dead Kushin right now has the better feat against the Fox; the MS-ability to control the Fox is an interesting possibility, but we don't have enough info on it to say anything concrete

The answer to anyone being truly fair and unbiased, should be very clear.



Authoritah said:


> You don't need to summon Kurama to be able to control it. We've seen Obito controlling Kurama and using it to attack Kushina the moment he trapped it within his illusion before he summoned it in Konoha.


This is true, but still does not explain the points that I made about contract seal breaking the control and Kurama falling for the same trick again and again despite not being an idiot.


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## Dominus (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> This is true, but still does not explain the points that I made about contract seal breaking the control and Kurama falling for the same trick again and again despite not being an idiot.



We don't know how the Contract Seal works. Apparently it can remove someone's control over the summon and that shinobi can't summon it anymore or something like that, but it wasn't explained in detail so I don't see how that exactly proves that he needs to summon it when you already admitted that you're wrong.

Kurama was used twice, I don't think it was stated anywhere that Madara used it more than once and Madara already said that Kurama isn't that smart.


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## Fiiction (Mar 9, 2014)

What's up with this Kushina vs Itachi against the kyuubi? Even if itachi can't control kurama which I Doubt he can't due to his genjutsu prowess, he can use amaterasu GG end of argument.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 9, 2014)

Anyone above Jiraiya.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> We don't know how the Contract Seal works. Apparently it can remove someone's control over the summon and that shinobi can't summon it anymore or something like that, but it wasn't explained in detail so I don't see how that exactly proves that he needs to summon it when you already admitted that you're wrong.
> 
> Kurama was used twice, I don't think it was stated anywhere that Madara used it more than once and Madara already said that Kurama isn't that smart.


I understand why the contract-seal would stop the summoning of Kurama, but why would it stop the Genjtusu control? As for Madara only controlling Kurama once, i'm not so sure about that; according Minato, Madara could only control Kurama for a brief period of time. Yet we see Madara confronting Kurama separately from when he fights Hashirama. So that would suggest he exercised control over Kurama at least twice. And yeah I think we both can agree Madara was being a dick when he said Kurama was stupid LOL.


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## Dominus (Mar 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I understand why the contract-seal would stop the summoning of Kurama, but why would it stop the Genjtusu control? As for Madara only controlling Kurama once, i'm not so sure about that; according Minato, Madara could only control Kurama for a brief period of time. Yet we see Madara confronting Kurama separately from when he fights Hashirama. So that would suggest he exercised control over Kurama at least twice. And yeah I think we both can agree Madara was being a dick when he said Kurama was stupid LOL.



I'm pretty sure that jutsu was an asspull, it wasn't explained and we've already agreed that they can control Kurama without summoning it first so why are having this discussion again?

Yeah, we see Madara confronting Kurama, but that could be the time he was getting Kurama to fight Hashirama.
Madara was being a dick, but he wasn't all wrong, I mean Kurama was just standing there looking in his eyes that time and when Obito extracted it from Kushina it did the same thing.


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## Rain (Mar 10, 2014)

>Obito controls Kurama with genjutsu
>Madara controls Kurama with genjutsu
>Sasuke controls Manda with 3-tomoe sharingan genjutsu

>Still insists that Itachi, the best genjutsu user in the manga can't control Kurama


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## Almondsand (Mar 10, 2014)

You see how they try to devalue Itachi's powers and feats when charcacters with similar abilities fail. 

Sasuke didn't kill one soul with Amaterasu or do anything of significance. Been countered etc. So everyone say Itachis will be countered because Sasuke was touted by a ninja from a whole different village at low jounin level as better than Itachi. 

Madara and Sasuke have shown the same genjutsu that Itachi have never shown and they were countered by team work or perfect Jin yet everyone will say Itachi based on their feats will do worse. 

Yet they will give SM Kabuto and SM jaraiya feats to their favorite characters despite the circumstances. They will ignore any weaknesses and just focus in the strengths. They always portray the characters smarter than what they are anddumbdown Itachi. It's hilarious.


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## Vice (Mar 10, 2014)

Rain said:


> >Obito controls Kurama with genjutsu
> >Madara controls Kurama with genjutsu
> >Sasuke controls Manda with 3-tomoe sharingan genjutsu
> 
> >Still insists that Itachi, the best genjutsu user in the manga can't control Kurama



This is how the battledome works. Its supposed to be about feats and not just to assume people can do higher tier things if they've never been shown or implied to be able to do those things.

Also Itachi's not the best genjutsu user in the manga. By feats Madara, Obito, Shisui, Kabuto and Tayuya all completely shit on him.



Almondsand said:


> You see how they try to devalue Itachi's powers and feats when charcacters with similar abilities fail.



The problem is your version of Itachi is a completely made up fanfiction wank version that could never possibly exist in reality.

And more people give him feats and hype that he didn't earn around here than the opposite.



> Sasuke didn't kill one soul with Amaterasu or do anything of significance. Been countered etc. So everyone say Itachis will be countered because Sasuke was touted by a ninja from a whole different village at low jounin level as better than Itachi.



If you have a problem with people claiming Sasuke is better with amaterasu than Itachi then take it up with Kishi for stating just such and giving him the ability to manipulate the flames in ways Itachi could never replicate. 

Sasuke uses Amaterasu on plot relevant characters like Madara while Itachi killed a fucking crow, so obviously itachi must be better though right.



> Madara and Sasuke have shown the same genjutsu that Itachi have never shown and they were countered by team work or perfect Jin yet everyone will say Itachi based on their feats will do worse.



One has the rinnegan and the other has ems, where is the stretch that they'll be better than Itachi at something?

You members of his fanclub just keep insisting that itachi is still relevant power wise to the current story when he's been long since passed by.



> Yet they will give SM Kabuto and SM jaraiya feats to their favorite characters despite the circumstances. They will ignore any weaknesses and just focus in the strengths. They always portray the characters smarter than what they are anddumbdown Itachi. It's hilarious.



Yes because itachi-tards would NEVER do this.

Oh wait, they do it all the fucking time yet still pitch a fit when people don't subscribe to their wanking.


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## Stermor (Mar 10, 2014)

Vice said:


> Also Itachi's not the best genjutsu user in the manga. By feats Madara, Obito, Shisui, Kabuto and Tayuya all completely shit on him.



lol no..... 

madara fair enough.. he has shown impressive feats and is likely superior to itachi.. 

obito never actually used any genjutsu barring jack a summon no jutsu(kyuubi) which may or may not be impressive... 

shisui, has the most powerful genjutsu arround. but he has never used it.. so we have no clue how he matches up.. 

kabuto lol.. he has a sound based genjutsu which annoyed itachi a bit.. no way in hell he is even comparable to itachi..

tayuya is laughable... pre skip shikemaru broke it........

itachi's crimson nail balsem combo is one of the most dangerous genjutsu combo attacks arround.. and could kill nearly everyone who cant instantly dispel genjutsu.. that combined with long range mind control. make itachi a top tier genjutsu master.. 

we should also consider the nidiame mizukage and kakashi.. both have impressive feats genjutsu wise..


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I'm pretty sure that jutsu was an asspull, it wasn't explained and we've already agreed that they can control Kurama without summoning it first so why are having this discussion again?
> 
> Yeah, we see Madara confronting Kurama, but that could be the time he was getting Kurama to fight Hashirama.
> Madara was being a dick, but he wasn't all wrong, I mean Kurama was just standing there looking in his eyes that time and when Obito extracted it from Kushina it did the same thing.


Because that still doesn't answer why Contract-Seal would free Kurama from the Genjtusu part of the control. 

I suppose it's possible, but man if he didn't have Kurama until the final battle; Hashirama must have been murder stomping the dude until then.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 10, 2014)

Stermor said:


> obito never actually used any genjutsu barring jack a summon no jutsu(kyuubi) which may or may not be impressive...



Obito controlled the kyuubi, then he controlled a perfect jinchiruki and also used genjutsu on Konan. Controlling a perfect jin is a greater feat than anything Itachi has shown



Stermor said:


> shisui, has the most powerful genjutsu arround. but he has never used it.. so we have no clue how he matches up..



Canon states that he was better than all Uchiha during Kirabi's life, ergo he is better than Itachi



Stermor said:


> kabuto lol.. he has a sound based genjutsu which annoyed itachi a bit.. no way in hell he is even comparable to itachi..



Annoyed Itachi a bit? NO ... More like fodderized Itachi and Sasuke at the same time. If not for Sasuke Itachi would have been dead for the second time 



Stermor said:


> tayuya is laughable... pre skip shikemaru broke it........



and yet Itachi could not break her genjutsu on his own



Stermor said:


> itachi's crimson nail balsem combo is one of the most dangerous genjutsu combo attacks arround.. and could kill nearly everyone who cant instantly dispel genjutsu.. that combined with long range mind control. make itachi a top tier genjutsu master..



sound based genjutsu are stated to be the most dangerous by Kishimoto himself. Itachi does not have any of those. Plus, the ability to control a perfect jin with genjutsu is a greater feat than anything Itachi has shown.


----------



## Mercurial (Mar 10, 2014)

Itachi losing to Kushina!? Itachi simply blitzes and carve a kunai in her head. He nearly blitzed base Bee and Kushina has no speed feats.

On topic, the people that definitely defeat Itachi,or that defeat him like 9 times out of 10, are:

- Current Juubidara
- Alive Rinnegan + SM Madara
- Edo Madara
- EMS Madara
- Hashirama
- BSM Naruto
- BM Naruto
- KCM Naruto
- EMS Sasuke
- Tobirama
- Minato
- KCM/BM Minato
- Kakashi
- Gai
- MS Obito
- MS + Rinnegan Obito
- Juubito
- Nagato
- Six Paths of Pain


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## Senjuclan (Mar 10, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Itachi losing to Kushina!? Itachi simply blitzes and carve a kunai in her head. He nearly blitzed base Bee and Kushina has no speed feats.



Kaguya-Hime has no speed feats, so that means Itachi blitzes her. Hagoromo-dono has no speed feats, so that means Itachi blitzes him. The Uchiha and Senju ancestors have no speed feats, Itachi blitzes them. 

Oh and by the way,you can't almost blitz someone. You either do or you fail. So, this whole argument about Itachi almost blitzing Kirabi is silly. Itachi tried and failed.


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## Stermor (Mar 10, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Obito controlled the kyuubi, then he controlled a perfect jinchiruki and also used genjutsu on Konan. Controlling a perfect jin is a greater feat than anything Itachi has shown



or madara did it.. we don't know.. madara was still alive at that point though... 



Senjuclan said:


> Canon states that he was better than all Uchiha during Kirabi's life, ergo he is better than Itachi



no the stated he a more powerful genjutsu.. which danzo had aswell. using it at the best time/place possible if still a large part of skill which we have no clue off.... .



Senjuclan said:


> Annoyed Itachi a bit? NO ... More like fodderized Itachi and Sasuke at the same time. If not for Sasuke Itachi would have been dead for the second time .



uhm no.. sasuke was about to go down.. then itachi jumped infront with susano, and stopped it.. annoyens at best... 



Senjuclan said:


> and yet Itachi could not break her genjutsu on his own.



lol...........



Senjuclan said:


> sound based genjutsu are stated to be the most dangerous by Kishimoto himself. Itachi does not have any of those. Plus, the ability to control a perfect jin with genjutsu is a greater feat than anything Itachi has shown.



so any prove obito did it and not madara?? since we are never really told obito used the genjutsu on him.. and really itachi can do the same with his crow so its all moot anyway.... 

just because you can use sound to do genjutsu does not mean jack shit.. it means less people use it to transport genjutsu which makes people less likely to know to break it.. it does not mean some random genin is anywhere close to good enough to compete with somebody who has been claimed the best genjutsu master by knowlegdable people like shikaku,,

claiming tayuya is comparable to itachi in anything should be considered trolling......


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## Senjuclan (Mar 10, 2014)

Stermor said:


> or madara did it.. we don't know.. madara was still alive at that point though...



Madara died before Obito went out as "Madara". You should read the manga sometime 



Stermor said:


> no the stated he a more powerful genjutsu.. which danzo had aswell. using it at the best time/place possible if still a large part of skill which we have no clue off.... .



No. He was stated to be the MOST POWERFUL GENJUTSU USER of the Uchiha



Stermor said:


> uhm no.. sasuke was about to go down.. then itachi jumped infront with susano, and stopped it.. annoyens at best...



Do you read the manga? Tayuya summoned here and both Itachi and Sasuke are bound in genjutsu here and Sasuke had to save Itachi's behind here



Stermor said:


> so any prove obito did it and not madara?? since we are never really told obito used the genjutsu on him.. and really itachi can do the same with his crow so its all moot anyway....



1. Yes we do have proof. madara died before Obito left the cave
2. Itachi's crow has Shisui's genjutsu 



Stermor said:


> just because you can use sound to do genjutsu does not mean jack shit.. it means less people use it to transport genjutsu which makes people less likely to know to break it.. it does not mean some random genin is anywhere close to good enough to compete with somebody who has been claimed the best genjutsu master by knowlegdable people like shikaku,,
> 
> claiming tayuya is comparable to itachi in anything should be considered trolling......



1. I go with the manga. Manga states sound genjutsu is the worst to deal with
2. Show me the panel of Shikaku claiming that Itachi is the "best genjutsu master"

I have backed up my claims with manga panels. Do the same now


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2014)

Itachi is better at Genjutsu than Tayuya, but Tayuya is a bit underestimated here. She did have a 5 in Genjutsu in the DB, which is the high DB-Tier in proficiency. She also had CS1/CS2, so she had a certain level of Senjutsu chakra to enhance her illusions, even further. Finally she has been shown to utilized Sound-Based illusions which canonically have been the hardest illusions to avoid, so that's a plus for her as well. Furthermore on the issue of variety, she has only shown one illusion, but it would be silly to assume someone with a 5 in Genjutsu does not possess the ability to cast more illusions than a single 1. Tayuya is actually quite high up there in terms of the rankings of Genjutsu users.

Heck that's the reason Kabuto bothered to integrate the Sound 5's DNA into himself to begin with, they each are high specialized in certain areas. The reason they are weak relatively speaking is because they are not very skilled in other areas.


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## Vice (Mar 10, 2014)

Stermor said:


> lol no.....







> obito never actually used any genjutsu barring jack a summon no jutsu(kyuubi) which may or may not be impressive...



That and controlling a perfect jin kage with genjutsu for years. These two feats alone are more impressive than anything Itachi's ever displayed.



> shisui, has the most powerful genjutsu arround. but he has never used it.. so we have no clue how he matches up..



Shisui was flat out stated to be the best genjutsu user in the Uchiha clan with no disagreement from Itachi himself.



> kabuto lol.. he has a sound based genjutsu which annoyed itachi a bit.. no way in hell he is even comparable to itachi..



Annoyed Itachi a bit? He would have been defeated right there if not for having a partner with the Sharingan next to him. He beat Itachi with genjutsu in canon but he doesn't compare. Funny.



> tayuya is laughable... pre skip shikemaru broke it........



Tayuya was an obvious joke.



> itachi's crimson nail balsem combo is one of the most dangerous genjutsu combo attacks arround.. and could kill nearly everyone who cant instantly dispel genjutsu.. that combined with long range mind control. make itachi a top tier genjutsu master..



Itachi has Tsukuyomi and then a bunch of feats against chuunin and part 1 Kurenai. Yay. 



> we should also consider the nidiame mizukage and kakashi.. both have impressive feats genjutsu wise..



One could argue that their genjutsu feats are also better.


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## Rain (Mar 10, 2014)

When Kakashi, Madara, Obito, Tayuya and Nidaime Mizukage get something even remotely as powerful as 72h Tsukuyomi, then we can possibly argue about them being better than Itachi at genjutsu.

Vice speaks about feats in battledome then proceeds to use Itachi's quote that Shisui is the best genjutsu user. Keep going brah..


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## Stermor (Mar 10, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Madara died before Obito went out as "Madara". You should read the manga sometime



and this matters why???? since you cleary know when the mizakage was under a genjutsu... madara could have easily done it before his death.. it would even make more sence with the timeline.....



Senjuclan said:


> No. He was stated to be the MOST POWERFUL GENJUTSU USER of the Uchiha



indeed the most powerful genjutsu... are you ignorant or just stupid..... powerful is not skilled!!!!!!!! we all know he has the most powerful genjutsu.. not wether he is the best... which btw itachi has aswell.. 




Senjuclan said:


> Do you read the manga? Tayuya summoned here and both Itachi and Sasuke are bound in genjutsu here and Sasuke had to save Itachi's behind here



again the idiotic idee.. itachi tells sasuke to look into his eyes to break the genjutsu.. so sasuke can kill the snake head?? this tells me itachi is just to lazy to kill the snake.. especially since itachi had to move his head to use tsukiyomi on sasuke (which would indicate he already broke it)..  so no sure where you get the idee kabuto is anywhere comparable.. since it really did jack shit on itachi.. who broke it before kabuto could do anything.....  




Senjuclan said:


> 1. Yes we do have proof. madara died before Obito left the cave


which is not proof that madara didn't do it.............................





Senjuclan said:


> 1. I go with the manga. Manga states sound genjutsu is the worst to deal with
> 2. Show me the panel of Shikaku claiming that Itachi is the "best genjutsu master"



it can be the worst to deal with like how fire is harder to deal with as a wind user... that doesn't mean a rasenshuriken doesn't completly crush a minor fire jutsu.... again the idiotic idee that just because it is sound it is super powerful..............

shikaku claimed only itachi could use long range genjutsu to hypontize people into doing what he wanted... he is somebody who would have know itachi's skillset.. 

if you really want to i can find all the panels to back it up.. but idiotic responces make me uncaring....


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## Vice (Mar 10, 2014)

Rain said:


> Vice speaks about feats in battledome then proceeds to use Itachi's quote that Shisui is the best genjutsu user. Keep going brah..



Kotoamatsukami speaks for itself.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 10, 2014)

Stermor said:


> and this matters why???? since you cleary know when the mizakage was under a genjutsu... madara could have easily done it before his death.. it would even make more sence with the timeline.....



It matters because we know that Obito was the one who controlled the mizukage. It was shown in the same manga that you clearly do not read



Stermor said:


> indeed the most powerful genjutsu... are you ignorant or just stupid..... powerful is not skilled!!!!!!!! we all know he has the most powerful genjutsu.. not wether he is the best... which btw itachi has aswell..



1. Resorting to insults is generally a sign that one is not confident in one's abilities to put forth a coherent argument. 
2. The manga does not say that he has the most powerful genjutsu, it says that HE IS the most powerful genjutsu user. Two different things. One quantifies the power of a specific genjutsu while the other is a comparative value statement, which makes Itachi inferior



Stermor said:


> again the idiotic idee.. itachi tells sasuke to look into his eyes to break the genjutsu.. so sasuke can kill the snake head?? this tells me itachi is just to lazy to kill the snake.. especially since itachi had to move his head to use tsukiyomi on sasuke (which would indicate he already broke it)..  so no sure where you get the idee kabuto is anywhere comparable.. since it really did jack shit on itachi.. who broke it before kabuto could do anything.....



1. There was no snake to kill. That was an illusion. There were bound by the genjutsu and could not move. Itachi could not break the illusion by himself and that's why he asked Sasuke to help
2. Itachi did not break anything. Sasuke broke him out of the genjutsu
3. Stop the insults. It just makes you sound pathetic. Your arguments alone are sophomoric, adding insults to them makes you sounds very asinine 



Stermor said:


> which is not proof that madara didn't do it



Kisame met Obito not Madara. The person Kisame met was the one controlling Yagura




Stermor said:


> it can be the worst to deal with like how fire is harder to deal with as a wind user... that doesn't mean a rasenshuriken doesn't completly crush a minor fire jutsu.... again the idiotic idee that just because it is sound it is super powerful..............



1. Do you not know how to spell idea? 
2. Sound genjutsu is compared to ALL other genjutsu and declared the toughest to deal with. It is not a question of match up. 



Stermor said:


> shikaku claimed only itachi could use long range genjutsu to hypontize people into doing what he wanted... he is somebody who would have know itachi's skillset..
> 
> if you really want to i can find all the panels to back it up.. but idiotic responces make me uncaring....



1. Only show me the panel of Shikaku claiming that "Itachi is the best genjutsu master". That panel does not exist. The best you will do is show a panel that says something totally different
2. Someone who can't even spell calling me an idiot ... Quite amusing


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## Stermor (Mar 10, 2014)

Rain said:


> When Kakashi, Madara, Obito, Tayuya and Nidaime Mizukage get something even remotely as powerful as 72h Tsukuyomi, then we can possibly argue about them being better than Itachi at genjutsu.
> 
> Vice speaks about feats in battledome then proceeds to use Itachi's quote that Shisui is the best genjutsu user. Keep going brah..



well kakashi knocked out some people instantly.. which is pretty good.. he also hyponitzed zabuza.. anyway all about similar feats to itachi barring tsukiyomi/koto... 

nidiame's genjutsu fooled an entire army.. which is pretty impressive, but totally different from how itachi uses genjutsu.. so a little hard to directly compare. still impressive and good use of genjutsu though..


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## Jagger (Mar 10, 2014)

Shisui's genjutsu was more powerful. However, I believe Itachi's Tsukuyomi is more versatile and more practical.

It does seem that way, though.


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## Vice (Mar 10, 2014)

Stermor said:


> true i can't even spell and still call you an idiot.....



Well everything he's saying is right on the money, so you can go ahead and think of him as an idiot, it still doesn't change the fact that you're clearly wrong here.


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## Rain (Mar 10, 2014)

Vice said:


> Kotoamatsukami speaks for itself.



So a once-per-a-*decade* mind-control jutsu is better than instant OHKO which only requires eye contact and can be used daily? 

k.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 10, 2014)

Kotoamatsukami and Tsukuyomi don't even do the same thing.

That said, Koto's ability to influence is stronger, but it's also a lot easier to just ignore if you know about it (since it's not active mind control, but rather, subconscious/emotional persuasion). Koto is basically Inception while Tsukuyomi is outright mind torture.

Though Izanami>Izanagi>both Koto and Tsuku.

That said, I think Itachi could've learned Izanami from Shisui, and Shisui could still be the better Genjutsu user in general regardless; maybe his basic Genjutsu was naturally stronger or maybe he could cast it from more parts of his body like his toes and penis, or something--hard to say without any feats from him.


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## Rain (Mar 10, 2014)

Stermor said:


> well kakashi knocked out some people instantly.. which is pretty good.. he also hyponitzed zabuza.. anyway all about similar feats to itachi barring tsukiyomi/koto...



When Kakashi one-panels legendary sannin Orochimaru with sharingan genjutsu and a kunai then come to me and speak how they are comparable.


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## Legendary Itachi (Mar 10, 2014)

Shisui has 0 feat in using Genjutsu, just because you've the most powerful Genjustu doesn't title you the best Genjutsu user, otherwise Danzo will be a better Genjutsu user than Itachi.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 10, 2014)

Stermor said:


> true i can't even spell and still call you an idiot.....



The higher the monkey climbs the tree the further up its ass you see


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## Vice (Mar 10, 2014)

Rain said:


> So a once-per-a-decade mind-control jutsu is better than instant OHKO which only requires eye contact and can be used daily?
> 
> k.



According to Kishi, yes.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 10, 2014)

Nobody said Shisui was the best Genjutsu user in the Uchiha clan _because of Kotoamatsukami_; he could've already been the best Genjutsu user without it and then also had that Jutsu on top of his basic skills.


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## Stermor (Mar 10, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> The higher the monkey climbs the tree the further up its ass you see



says the idiotic troll who thinks tayuya is superior genjutsu user to itachi... 

i'll stop responding because there is to much name calling. but can we agree pre skip temari now can't be caught in genjutsu from itachi anymore  since tayuya cleary wasn't able to.....


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2014)

What if Shisui's Shunshin somehow put people into an illusion, now that would be fun


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## Senjuclan (Mar 10, 2014)

Stermor said:


> says the idiotic troll who thinks tayuya is superior genjutsu user to itachi...
> 
> i'll stop responding because there is to much name calling. but can we agree pre skip temari now can't be caught in genjutsu from itachi anymore  since tayuya cleary wasn't able to.....



1. I never called you names. You did. You did so to elicit an acrimonious reply from me so you would use it as an excuse to stop answering the logical spanking I gave you
2. Learn what a non sequitur is and you will see why your comments about Temari are beyond asinine


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## Dominus (Mar 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Because that still doesn't answer why Contract-Seal would free Kurama from the Genjtusu part of the control.



We don't know how that jutsu works so it's pointless to discuss about it.



> I suppose it's possible, but man if he didn't have Kurama until the final battle; Hashirama must have been murder stomping the dude until then.



Hashirama could have been holding back (he still considered Madara a friend as we've seen at VotE) or he simply wasn't as strong when they fought before Konoha was created (probably didn't have Shin Sūsenju). We've seen in this war that Madara could hold his own against Hashirama (with just PS and without using Kurama, the Rinnegan, Mokuton) when Hashirama isn't using his strongest technique.


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## Almondsand (Mar 10, 2014)

Everybody was scared of Itachi... Danzo was scared of him, Tobi was scared of him. Once he died that's when they started acting up.

Also Itachi genjutsu is mountains ahead of Madara's Sasuke's and any other genjutsu user shown in the manga feat wise. It's not even close, he's the only one to show reverse genjutsu, genjutsu from body parts, mind control, layering genjutsu, genjutsu clones, genjutsu crows... LOL and the list goes on.

Also since people want to take Sasuke is better than Itachi with Amaterasu so literally from what a low tier jounin said, then you have to also take in account that Itachi is invincible with Yata and Totsuka. End of discussion.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 10, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Everybody was scared of Itachi... Danzo was scared of him, Tobi was scared of him. Once he died that's when they started acting up.
> 
> Also Itachi genjutsu is mountains ahead of Madara's Sasuke's and any other genjutsu user shown in the manga feat wise. It's not even close, he's the only one to show reverse genjutsu, genjutsu from body parts, mind control, layering genjutsu, genjutsu clones, genjutsu crows... LOL and the list goes on.
> 
> Also since people want to take Sasuke is better than Itachi with Amaterasu so literally from what a low tier jounin said, then you have to also take in account that Itachi is invincible with Yata and Totsuka. End of discussion.



1. Claims EVERYBODY was scared of Itachi and proceeds to name TWO people. 
2. Mangaka says Shisui was better than Itachi at genjutsu, that means he was better. Case closed. Also, featswise, Obito has better feats. How often you use genjutsu is not a measure of superior skills but what kind of results you get with it is what matters. Obito got better results (binding kyuubi and a perfect jin)


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Hashirama could have been holding back (he still considered Madara a friend as we've seen at VotE) or he simply wasn't as strong when they fought before Konoha was created (probably didn't have Shin Sūsenju). We've seen in this war that Madara could hold his own against Hashirama (with just PS and without using Kurama, the Rinnegan, Mokuton) when Hashirama isn't using his strongest technique.


Maybe, but ether way, I think it's fair to say any conclusion we come to here is just speculation, and that's my point; MS-Kyuubi control is very much speculative at this point.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> What if Shisui's Shunshin somehow put people into an illusion, now that would be fun



How would that even work?

Like, his after-image can Genjutsu people, or what?


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## StickaStick (Mar 10, 2014)

Itachi's genjutsu feats consist of such impecable adversaries as pre-time skip Kakashi and Kurenai,  pre-SM Naruto (twice), Hebi Sasuke and himself (w/ Shisui's eye). 

Let's not even get into 3-tomoe Hebi Sasuke breaking out of Tsukuyomi clean.

Mads, Obito, and Shisui all trump him in genjutsu.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 10, 2014)

The Format said:


> Itachi's genjutsu feats consist of such impecable adversaries as pre-time skip Kakashi and Kurenai,  pre-SM Naruto (twice), Hebi Sasuke and himself (w/ Shisui's eye).
> 
> Let's not even get into 3-tomoe Hebi Sasuke breaking out of Tsukuyomi clean.
> 
> Mads, Obito, and Shisui all trump him in genjutsu.



Part 1 Kakashi at the time had a 4.5 in Genjutsu (and Sharingan) and Kurenai had a perfect 5 (like Itachi himself). Itachi also subdued Orochimaru, another 5.

Hebi Sasuke had a 4 in Genjutsu, plus the Sharingan, plus he used the Senjutsu-powered Curse Mark to break Tsukuyomi.

Kabuto, a perfect Sage Mode user, medical Ninja (insane chakra control), and high-level Genjutsu user himself (4.5), had to have special eye coverings when fighting Itachi and Sasuke to avoid getting caught in their Genjutsu. And Izanami still ended up trapping him.

Shisui's only Genjutsu feat is Kotoamatsukami (through other users), while Madara and Obito both have very basic Genjutsu feats (depending on how much stock you put in their Kyuubi control).

So yeah, Itachi actually has quite the impressive track record with using Genjutsu on high-level targets--particularly when you consider that most shinobi aren't better equipped to handle it than guys like pre-SM Naruto and young Deidara anyway.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Part 1 Kakashi at the time had a 4.5 in Genjutsu (and Sharingan) and Kurenai had a perfect 5 (like Itachi himself). Itachi also subdued Orochimaru, another 5.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke had a 4 in Genjutsu, plus the Sharingan, plus he used the Senjutsu-powered Curse Mark to break Tsukuyomi.
> 
> ...



Tell me which one of all the people you so fastidiously listed is a higher level target than Yagura or is better equipped to handle genjutsu?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 10, 2014)

It is suggested Itachi is around Jiraiya's level, but beneath Minato though.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 10, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Tell me which one of all the people you so fastidiously listed is a higher level target than Yagura or is better equipped to handle genjutsu?



Well Yagura doesn't have much panel time and isn't apparently equipped to handle Genjutsu better than any other random shinobi, but he IS a Perfect Jinchuuriki; they're supposed to be able to break Genjutsu by using the partner method with their Bijuu, at least conventionally.

Though there appear to be exceptional Jutsu like Kotoamatsukami that this method is ineffective at neutralizing; Itachi's time-compressed Tsukuyomi has also been the subject of debate regarding this very issue.

In any case, I think I see where you're trying to go with this: "A Genjutsu likened to Shisui's Kotoamatsukami was used to brainwash Yagura, so obviously Shisui is better at Genjutsu than Itachi."

Well...no. Because:



> [Yagura] IS a Perfect Jinchuuriki; they're supposed to be able to break Genjutsu by using the partner method with their Bijuu, at least conventionally.



It's not necessarily a matter of power or skill; whoever and whatever brainwashed Yagura broke the rules and did something the partner method couldn't counter.

What that was or if the Jutsu was even Kotoamatsukami (and not something else) remains to be seen.

Having said that, Itachi did catch B (another perfect Jinchuuriki) in a Genjutsu, but the Hachibi snapped him out of it; Yagura probably would also need the Sanbi to counter that. Hard to say how either of them would fare against Tsukuyomi, though.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Well Yagura doesn't have much panel time and isn't apparently equipped to handle Genjutsu better than any other random shinobi, but he IS a Perfect Jinchuuriki; they're supposed to be able to break Genjutsu by using the partner method with their Bijuu, at least conventionally.
> 
> Though there appear to be exceptional Jutsu like Kotoamatsukami that this method is ineffective at neutralizing; Itachi's time-compressed Tsukuyomi has also been the subject of debate regarding this very issue.
> 
> In any case, I think I see where you're trying to go with this: "A Genjutsu likened to Shisui's Kotoamatsukami was used to brainwash Yagura, so obviously Shisui is better at Genjutsu than Itachi."



That's not where I am going.

1. Yagura IS better equipped at handling genjutsu than 99.99% of shinobi since RS because he is a perfect jin
2. OBITO used that genjutsu, so I was talking about him not Shisui



Nikushimi said:


> Well...no. Because:
> 
> It's not necessarily a matter of power or skill; whoever and whatever brainwashed Yagura broke the rules and did something the partner method couldn't counter.
> 
> ...



1. Obito's genjutsu broke the rules of genjutsu, therefore featswise it is above anything Itachi has done. That was my point
2. I know how B and Yagura would fare against tsukuyomi, they would laugh at it and call it a joke. The discussion only exists in the mind of Itachi fans. Tsukuyomi's impact can be negated as stated in the manga (by having sharingan), therefore there is nothing special about it if one has a way of anunling the illusion of time, which the bijuu will do.


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## StickaStick (Mar 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Part 1 Kakashi at the time had a 4.5 in Genjutsu (and Sharingan) and Kurenai had a perfect 5 (like Itachi himself). Itachi also subdued Orochimaru, another 5.


Can't say I put too much stock into DB ratings; especially when characters like pre-time skip Kurenai and Oro are given 5s in genjutsu with no relevant hype or feats to back it up whatsoever.



Nikushimi said:


> Hebi Sasuke had a 4 in Genjutsu, plus the Sharingan, plus he used the Senjutsu-powered Curse Mark to break Tsukuyomi.


Nah I think that's just the way it was depicted as he was breaking out of it but as you see afterwards the CS isn't being used and WZ even asks how he did it which prompts BZ to reply with this stone and shuriken analogy.



Nikushimi said:


> Kabuto, a perfect Sage Mode user, medical Ninja (insane chakra control), and high-level Genjutsu user himself (4.5), had to have special eye coverings when fighting Itachi and Sasuke to avoid getting caught in their Genjutsu. And Izanami still ended up trapping him.


Why wouldn't Kabuto use a common-sense defense at his disposal? Remember he wasn't exactly prepping for facing Itachi; if anything there'a better chance the eye-coverings were prepped for Sasuke.



Nikushimi said:


> Shisui's only Genjutsu feat is Kotoamatsukami (through other users), while Madara and Obito both have very basic Genjutsu feats (depending on how much stock you put in their Kyuubi control).


Shisui is stated as the most powerful genjutsu among the Uchia without any correction from Itachi. I'm among those that believe the sharingan grants the ability to control the Kyuubi but it must be learned and honed. I don't think it's any coincidence that Mads and his student Obito are the only two to do it. (Sasuke subduing the Kyuubi is not the same thing.) Obito also controlled the Mizukage--a perfect jin--with a genjutsu comparable to that of koto.


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## Legendary Itachi (Mar 10, 2014)

Having Sharingan doesn't negate Tsukuyomi, look at Kakashi and Sasuke. 

If a normal Sharingan Genjutsu traps Bee temporarily, no reason why a more powerful Tsukuyomi which damages your mental instantly won't work on Bee despite Perfect Jin. Trying to downplay an ability by calling ppl fans isn't smart either.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 10, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> That's not where I am going.
> 
> 1. Yagura IS better equipped at handling genjutsu than 99.99% of shinobi since RS because he is a perfect jin
> 2. OBITO used that genjutsu, so I was talking about him not Shisui



1. Other than being a PJ he has no discernible special Genjutsu resistance; find a way to get around that and he's not so tough.
2. We don't know that for sure; we know Obito was the one manipulating him from behind the scenes, but the person who actually cast the Jutsu (especially if it WAS Kotoamatsukami) could have been someone else. If someone else did Obito a favor and brainwashed Yagura to "Obey Madara's every command," well...you get the idea.



> 1. Obito's genjutsu broke the rules of genjutsu, therefore featswise it is above anything Itachi has done. That was my point



Well then the obvious problems with that are:

1. We still don't know if it was really Obito who cast the Genjutsu.
2. We don't know if it's because Obito's Genjutsu is "better" or just does something different; the partner method is supposed to work no matter how strong the Genjutsu is, and Yagura's partner is a freaking Bijuu.



> 2. I know how B and Yagura would fare against tsukuyomi, they would laugh at it and call it a joke.



If you know this then you must be able to show me where in the source material it is indicated, or at least how you arrived at that conclusion.



> The discussion only exists in the mind of Itachi fans.



The discussion doesn't exist in the minds of people unwilling to have it. For the rest of us, yes, it is very much still an issue that could use clarifying.



> Tsukuyomi's impact can be negated as stated in the manga (by having sharingan), therefore there is nothing special about it



Umm...what? Sharingan is a genetic trait of a specific bloodline (descended from the most powerful shinobi in the manga's history); that absolutely means Tsukuyomi is something special.



> if one has a way of anunling the illusion of time, which the bijuu will do.



1. That's not a word. I don't even know what word you were attempting to use.
2. How?


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## StickaStick (Mar 10, 2014)

Bee was caught off guard and only trapped for an instant. He broke out of it no problem and by the time Sasuke was ready to turn around after casting it almost got his head taken off.

Edit: If Kishi wanted to suggest anyone other than Obito had casted the genjutsu on Mizukage, he would have. There's nothing to suggest that and it's basically trying to find holes/theories were there are none.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 10, 2014)

The Format said:


> Can't say I put too much stock into DB ratings; especially when characters like pre-time skip Kurenai and Oro are given 5s in genjutsu with no relevant hype or feats to back it up whatsoever.



The stats are...well, written by the same guy who made all these characters and drew their feats and wrote their power comparisons through dialogue, and whatnot. Like them or hate them, agree with them or disagree with them, they are an _official_ secondary source and a supplement to the canon. I'm only putting them forward as such.



> Nah I think that's just the way it was depicted as he was breaking out of it but as you see afterwards the CS isn't being used and WZ even asks how he did it which prompts BZ to reply with this stone and shuriken analogy.



If Sasuke didn't use the Juin then what was the point of showing the Juin's activation? It wouldn't make sense for Kishi to draw that and not intend for people to arrive at the conclusion that the Juin's power was used, even if a physical transformation did not happen.



> Why wouldn't Kabuto use a common-sense defense at his disposal? Remember he wasn't exactly prepping for facing Itachi; if anything there'a better chance the eye-coverings were prepped for Sasuke.



Itachi has always been better at Genjutsu than Sasuke (and arguably still is), so I don't mind even if that's the case; my point stands.



> Shisui is stated as the most powerful genjutsu among the Uchia without any correction from Itachi. I'm among those that believe the sharingan grants the ability to control the Kyuubi but it must be learned and honed.



I don't disagree.



> I don't think it's any coincidence that Mads and his student Obito are the only two to do it. (Sasuke subduing the Kyuubi is not the same thing.)



Well they are also the only two who have had the opportunity (as far as Kishi has shown, anyway).



> Obito also controlled the Mizukage--a perfect jin--with a genjutsu comparable to that of koto.



Well...the details on that are still unknown. Rather than get into this argument again in the same thread, you can just read my current exchange with Senjuclan if you're interested in my thoughts on the subject.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 10, 2014)

Minato>Itachi~Jiraiya as the Pain era suggested.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 10, 2014)

The Format said:


> Bee was caught off guard and only trapped for an instant. He broke out of it no problem and by the time Sasuke was ready to turn around after casting it almost got his head taken off.



That was Sasuke's Genjutsu; we already know perfect Jinchuuriki can break normal Genjutsu (the Hachibi broke B out of Itachi's, as well).

But Tsukuyomi is not such a simple case; Kakashi stated the partner method doesn't work because there's no time to do it before Tsukuyomi takes full effect, and it's still not clear if internal Bijuu partners are an exception to that.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 10, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is suggested Itachi is around Jiraiya's level, but beneath Minato though.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato>Itachi~Jiraiya as the Pain era suggested.



We heard you the first time.

Btw, I disagree with your evaluation; Itachi~Minato>Jiraiya seems more consistent with their showings.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> 1. Other than being a PJ he has no discernible special Genjutsu resistance; find a way to get around that and he's not so tough.



Other than having the sharingan, Itachi does not have discernible special genjutsu skills. You see what I did there?

Being a perfect jin IS the special genjutsu resistance. I am not even sure why we are arguing this point



Nikushimi said:


> 2. We don't know that for sure; we know Obito was the one manipulating him from behind the scenes, but the person who actually cast the Jutsu (especially if it WAS Kotoamatsukami) could have been someone else. If someone else did Obito a favor and brainwashed Yagura to "Obey Madara's every command," well...you get the idea.



NOPE. We do know. Kisame says that Obito was the one controlling him with his sharingan




Nikushimi said:


> Well then the obvious problems with that are:
> 
> 1. We still don't know if it was really Obito who cast the Genjutsu.



See above. 



Nikushimi said:


> 2. We don't know if it's because Obito's Genjutsu is "better" or just does something different; the partner method is supposed to work no matter how strong the Genjutsu is, and Yagura's partner is a freaking Bijuu.



Whatever it does, it is a better feat than Itachi has ever displayed. That's all that matters



Nikushimi said:


> If you know this then you must be able to show me where in the source material it is indicated, or at least how you arrived at that conclusion.



I would advise you read the manga. It says that bijuu can cancel genjutsu and there is nothing special about tsukuyomi expect for the illusion that it lasts longer than it does indeed last. Once broken, tsukuyomi is just an illusion like any other 



Nikushimi said:


> The discussion doesn't exist in the minds of people unwilling to have it. For the rest of us, yes, it is very much still an issue that could use clarifying.



You have not shown me how I am unwilling to have the discussion. You have only told me that there is still a discussion on this issue. However, as I have pointed out, that discussion only exists in your circle. 



Nikushimi said:


> Umm...what? Sharingan is a genetic trait of a specific bloodline (descended from the most powerful shinobi in the manga's history); that absolutely means Tsukuyomi is something special.



Can't tell the forest from the trees? I am comparing tsukuyomi to other genjutsu including sharingan genjutsu. Tsukuyomi is an illusory technique. The illusion here is that time passes faster than it actually does. It is nothing special. It is an illusion just like any other illusion. 



Nikushimi said:


> 1. That's not a word. I don't even know what word you were attempting to use.
> 2. How?



1. It is not. I made a mistake. I am at work and my phone rang and when I came back did not check my spelling. The word is ANNULLING   
2. The same way bijuu have annulled the effects of other genjutsu.


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## StickaStick (Mar 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> The stats are...well, written by the same guy who made all these characters and drew their feats and wrote their power comparisons through dialogue, and whatnot. Like them or hate them, agree with them or disagree with them, they are an _official_ secondary source and a supplement to the canon. I'm only putting them forward as such.


Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it dubious if Kishi even writes these himself or oversees their publication. Regardless, they're fraught with inconsistencies and "wtfs" to the point of not even being a reliable source IMO.



Nikushimi said:


> If Sasuke didn't use the Juin then what was the point of showing the Juin's activation? It wouldn't make sense for Kishi to draw that and not intend for people to arrive at the conclusion that the Juin's power was used, even if a physical transformation did not happen.


After Sasuke broke out there was no indication that the CS was even used in real-time. Why would Kishi have WZ ask how Sasuke did it and then proceed to have BZ offer the rock and shuriken analogy concerning skill?



Nikushimi said:


> Itachi has always been better at Genjutsu than Sasuke (and arguably still is), so I don't mind even if that's the case; my point stands.


To me this is a basic preparation with Kabuto covering all his bases. I'd expect Kabuto to do the same versus anyone with any reputation of proficiency in genjutsu. 



Nikushimi said:


> Well they are also the only two who have had the opportunity (as far as Kishi has shown, anyway).


For a reason, is my point. Mads was the first and only to do it at the time (as far as we know) and his student is the only other. We don't need to be shown others trying and failing to see the connection.



Nikushimi said:


> That was Sasuke's Genjutsu; we already know perfect Jinchuuriki can break normal Genjutsu (the Hachibi broke B out of Itachi's, as well).
> 
> But Tsukuyomi is not such a simple case; *Kakashi stated the partner method doesn't work because there's no time to do it before Tsukuyomi takes full effect*, and it's still not clear if internal Bijuu partners are an exception to that.


Scan for the bolded?

Regardless if 3-tomoe Hebi Sasuke can do it I have no questions that a host of others can as well.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 10, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Other than having the sharingan, Itachi does not have discernible special genjutsu skills. You see what I did there?



Make a factually incorrect claim? Yeah.

Look, if you're not going to take this seriously, then I have better things to waste my time on.



> Being a perfect jin IS the special genjutsu resistance. I am not even sure why we are arguing this point



Because if a method can be found to get around that one special defense, then Yagura is as vulnerable as any other Doujutsu-less Kage-level ninja.



> NOPE. We do know. Kisame says that Obito was the one controlling him with his sharingan



Kisame inferred that based on the sight of Obito's Sharingan. We still lack direct confirmation, and Obito certainly hasn't displayed such a Genjutsu before or since.



> Whatever it does, it is a better feat than Itachi has ever displayed. That's all that matters



It's not necessarily "better" because there's no guarantee Itachi could replicate it with any of his Genjutsu no matter how much of a hypothetical power/skill boost he received; it's just different than what Itachi has proved equipped to do--although, again, the jury's still out on Tsukuyomi.



> I would advise you read the manga.



Gee that's helpful.



> It says that bijuu can cancel genjutsu



Via the partner method.

Which the manga also says doesn't work against Tsukuyomi.



> and there is nothing special about tsukuyomi expect for the illusion that it lasts longer than it does indeed last. Once broken, tsukuyomi is just an illusion like any other



It's a lot stronger than most Genjutsu, and that trait you just described is precisely the complicating factor here (when talking about affecting a perfect Jinchuuriki).



> You have not shown me how I am unwilling to have the discussion. You have only told me that there is still a discussion on this issue. However, as I have pointed out, that discussion only exists in your circle.



Because you are unwilling to acknowledge the fact that it is still unknown and unknowable; you are convinced of something for which you do not have adequate proof. I appreciate that you're taking the time to talk about it anyway, but you don't seem to be taking this conversation very seriously.



> Can't tell the forest from the trees? I am comparing tsukuyomi to other genjutsu including sharingan genjutsu. Tsukuyomi is an illusory technique. The illusion here is that time passes faster than it actually does. It is nothing special.



It is the only Genjutsu we've seen that can do that. That isn't just special, it's unique.



> It is an illusion just like any other illusion.



Other Genjutsu don't allow the caster to freely control time, space, and physical mass in an alternate plane, the way Tsukuyomi does. Most of them just do one specific thing, like paralyze or create false images; Tsukuyomi can do both, and apparently even hypnotize to extract information, among an indefinite number of other things.



> 1. It is not. I made a mistake. I am at work and my phone rang and when I came back did not check my spelling. The word is ANNULLING
> 2. The same way bijuu have annulled the effects of other genjutsu.



1. Fair enough.
2. But that is precisely the problem--Tsukuyomi is different from "other Genjutsu."


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> We heard you the first time.
> 
> Btw, I disagree with your evaluation; Itachi~Minato>Jiraiya seems more consistent with their showings.



Itachi has severe enhancements though whereas Minato showed only slightly different to his base self.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 10, 2014)

The Format said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it dubious if Kishi even writes these himself or oversees their publication. Regardless, they're fraught with inconsistencies and "wtfs" to the point of not even being a reliable source IMO.



They are officially labeled as written by Kishimoto.

And it's not like there have never been any inconsistencies or "wtfs" in the manga itself; that doesn't stop any of us from citing evidence from it.



> After Sasuke broke out there was no indication that the CS was even used in real-time. Why would Kishi have WZ ask how Sasuke did it and then proceed to have BZ offer the rock and shuriken analogy concerning skill?



Beats me, especially considering the fact that Sasuke was rated lower than Itachi in Genjutsu in the subsequent databook. If I had to guess, it's because Zetsu had no way of observing the events inside Tsukuyomi and had no idea Itachi was jobbing to Sasuke the whole time, so he probably came up with whatever explanation made sense to him under those circumstances.

Or, to put it in more abstract, out-of-universe terms, Kishi was explaining to us how Sasuke _could've_ broken Tsukuyomi...in advance of the revelation that Itachi wasn't seriously trying to kill him.

That is my own assessment.



> To me this is a basic preparation with Kabuto covering all his bases. I'd expect Kabuto to do the same versus anyone with any reputation of proficiency in genjutsu.



I agree, but the fact that Kabuto saw this defense appropriate indicates exactly what I was saying: Itachi's Genjutsu was taken as a serious threat by a Sage Mode user with a background in both Genjutsu AND medical Ninjutsu--both of which require precise chakra control.



> For a reason, is my point. Mads was the first and only to do it at the time (as far as we know) and his student is the only other. We don't need to be shown others trying and failing to see the connection.



Well, it would certainly prove beyond a shadow of a doubt who can and who can't, is _my_ point; lacking that, we don't have anything substantial to go on.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 10, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi has severe enhancements though whereas Minato showed only slightly different to his base self.



I don't understand what you mean.


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## StickaStick (Mar 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> They are officially labeled as written by Kishimoto.
> 
> And it's not like there have never been any inconsistencies or "wtfs" in the manga itself; that doesn't stop any of us from citing evidence from it.


That doesn't address my concern, but okay. Also, there's clearly a difference between something as dubious as the datebooks and the actual canon manga. I personally don't take them (the databooks) as authoritative literature. If someone could provide a link with Kishi stating otherwise I'd be more than glad to change my stance.



Nikushimi said:


> Beats me, especially considering the fact that Sasuke was rated lower than Itachi in Genjutsu in the subsequent databook. If I had to guess, it's because Zetsu had no way of observing the events inside Tsukuyomi and had no idea Itachi was jobbing to Sasuke the whole time, so he probably came up with whatever explanation made sense to him under those circumstances.
> 
> Or, to put it in more abstract, out-of-universe terms, Kishi was explaining to us how Sasuke _could've_ broken Tsukuyomi...in advance of the revelation that Itachi wasn't seriously trying to kill him.
> 
> That is my own assessment.


I don't think Kishi was being abstract about it at all and that's, in fact, not the interpretation I took from it. IMO he was clearly making the point that Sasuke was able to break out because of his proficiency w/ his sharingan as compared to Itachi. (This isn't surprising, Obito eluded to this and even said his [Sasuke's] eyes would be better than Itachi's).



Nikushimi said:


> I agree, but the fact that Kabuto saw this defense appropriate indicates exactly what I was saying: Itachi's Genjutsu was taken as a serious threat by a Sage Mode user with a background in both Genjutsu AND medical Ninjutsu--both of which require precise chakra control.


Why wouldn't Sasuke's (and Itachi's) genjutsu be taken seriously? However, that doesn't speak to his ranking among the other elite genjutsu users as Kabuto would do the same thing with them.



Nikushimi said:


> Well, it would certainly prove beyond a shadow of a doubt who can and who can't, is _my_ point; lacking that, we don't have anything substantial to go on.


In a situation such as this I'm not sure we need an outright statement when the implication appears to be obvious.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't understand what you mean.



He is trying to say that Edo Itachi had more buffs compared to Edo Minato in respect to their living versions which is not just absolutely ridiclious

-snip-

But then, what do you expect from a person who thinks Hebi Sasuke'd stomp Itachi if not for Susano'O and that his terminal illness had only mild, dismissable effects on his performance.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't understand what you mean.



In other words there is *no* reason to believe Itachi~Minato.


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## Vice (Mar 10, 2014)

All of Itachi's best genjutsu feats can be directly attributed to Sharingan hax, not to his propensity for it itself and even then he falls short to Obito and Madara. Without it he's merely besting chunins or getting owned by a flute. Obito was able to keep a perfect jin under for years, Itachi couldn't even keep one down for 30 seconds. 

Itachi is really good with genjutsu of course, but the notion that he is the end all be all of it is a fanmade one and not supported by actual canon.


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## Jagger (Mar 10, 2014)

The entire Obito's feat controlling a Perfect Jinchuuriki is somehow ambiguous.

We know he didn't have Kotoamatsukami since both Itachi and Danzo had Shisui's eyes, but it's also weird considering what was stated several times about the partner method breaking genjutsu.

One of my theories is the reason of why Yagura was perfectly capable of controlling the three-tails is because of Obito's genjutsu in the first place.


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## Bonly (Mar 11, 2014)

Yagura might not have been a Perfect Jin. When Danzo was naming the few people(that he knew of) that could control a Bijuu, when referring to Yagura he said "And *Maybe* the fourth Mizukage Yagura". That mean he could have or couldn't have been a Jin and that's the only time we hear him being mentioned as a perfect Jin ever, if I remember correctly that is. So Obito controlling him might not be as special as most think but no one would know for sure so yeah.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 11, 2014)

Vice said:


> Itachi is really good with genjutsu of course, but the notion that he is the end all be all of it is a fanmade one and not supported by actual canon.


You mean besides getting singled out by Shikaku and Ao of all people on "Madara's" side. Including "Madara". Stop hating.


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## Vice (Mar 11, 2014)

alex payne said:


> You mean besides getting singled out by Shikaku and Ao of all people on "Madara's" side. Including "Madara". Stop hating.



There's nothing concrete about any of that. They questioned what was going on, cited Itachi as a likely source then quickly dismissed him.

Obito has better feats, deal with it.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 11, 2014)

They didn't even know that he was resurrected at that point. They knew about "Madara", Sasuke and reanimated Nidaime Mizukage, another Kage-lvl genjutsu user. And the first thing that came to their minds when considering genjutsu was "Itachi?". If that's not a testament to Itachi's genjutsu skills being top class then I don't know what is.


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## Trojan (Mar 11, 2014)

They were wrong though.


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## Vice (Mar 11, 2014)

Uh, they also specifically noted that his genjutsu wasn't good enough to pull that off in the very scan you provided.

And I'd have to go back and reread it but I highly doubt that they didn't realize he was there and was just pulling his name out of their asses.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 11, 2014)

The Format said:


> That doesn't address my concern, but okay. Also, there's clearly a difference between something as dubious as the datebooks and the actual canon manga. I personally don't take them (the databooks) as authoritative literature. If someone could provide a link with Kishi stating otherwise I'd be more than glad to change my stance.



You want a message from Kishi directly expressing the legitimacy of his word? He hasn't even done that with the manga.



> I don't think Kishi was being abstract about it at all and that's, in fact, not the interpretation I took from it. IMO he was clearly making the point that Sasuke was able to break out because of his proficiency w/ his sharingan as compared to Itachi. (This isn't surprising, Obito eluded to this and even said his [Sasuke's] eyes would be better than Itachi's).



It was alluded to, yes, but whether or not it happened by that point remains controversial due to Itachi's explicit statistical superiority and later the testimony of ninja such as Danzou that he was STILL better than Sasuke in that regard. Mind you, Itachi jobbing serves as a perfect alternative explanation, even if it isn't necessarily provable.



> Why wouldn't Sasuke's (and Itachi's) genjutsu be taken seriously? However, that doesn't speak to his ranking among the other elite genjutsu users as Kabuto would do the same thing with them.



Possibly, but the point is that Kabuto is the furthest a "normal" shinobi can get from being totally vulnerable to Genjutsu, and even he didn't want to be caught in Itachi's; I pointed this out in response to Senjuclan's belittling of the opponents Itachi's Genjutsu has actually affected.



> In a situation such as this I'm not sure we need an outright statement when the implication appears to be obvious.



There is no implication; an implication would mean there is a semantic or contextual proof that only Obito or Madara can control the Kyuubi, which there is not--they are simply the only ones who have had the opportunity, which doesn't imply anything other than the fact that they were the only Sharingan users to actually face the Kyuubi on-panel. So, in this case, an outright statement or at least some piece of suggestive evidence is in fact necessary.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In other words there is *no* reason to believe Itachi~Minato.



That doesn't appear to follow from what you said in your last post--in fact, I'm not even sure what that was.



Vice said:


> All of Itachi's best genjutsu feats can be directly attributed to Sharingan hax, not to his propensity for it itself



Well.

That's a lie.



> and even then he falls short to Obito and Madara.



Obito's only feat is hypnotizing an exhausted Konan while Madara's only feats are paralyzing a fodder ninja and recounting a history lesson to Obito through images (while connected to the Gedou Mazo). Other than those very basic feats, they both brainwashed the Kyuubi, which is supposed to be an inherent power of the Mangekyou Sharingan (one that Itachi never got a chance to test).



> Without it he's merely besting chunins



And Orochimaru, and Kakashi, and Kurenai, and Sage Kabuto...



> or getting owned by a flute.



Used by Sage Kabuto, when Itachi doesn't know about that Jutsu.



> Obito was able to keep a perfect jin under for years, Itachi couldn't even keep one down for 30 seconds.



There's no proof it was Obito's Genjutsu.



> Itachi is really good with genjutsu of course, but the notion that he is the end all be all of it is a fanmade one and not supported by actual canon.



Itachi has much better feats than Obito and Madara, excluding Kyuubi control (which he hasn't been given the opportunity to attempt).

Shisui may or may not be better in general, regardless of how Kotoamatsukami compares to the specific Jutsu in Itachi's move set (Shisui having been the best Genjutsu user at the time of his death...doesn't mean he wasn't surpassed by Itachi later; we have no way of knowing).



alex payne said:


> You mean besides getting singled out by Shikaku and Ao of all people on "Madara's" side. Including "Madara". Stop hating.





Vice said:


> There's nothing concrete about any of that. They questioned what was going on, cited Itachi as a likely source then quickly dismissed him.
> 
> Obito has better feats, deal with it.





alex payne said:


> They didn't even know that he was resurrected at that point. They knew about "Madara", Sasuke and reanimated Nidaime Mizukage, another Kage-lvl genjutsu user. And the first thing that came to their minds when considering genjutsu was "Itachi?". If that's not a testament to Itachi's genjutsu skills being top class then I don't know what is.



AP is right; there's no point in even having this argument, when it's clear from the fact that Itachi was the very first person they thought of that they were acknowledging his _unique_ level of proficiency.



Vice said:


> Uh, they also specifically noted that his genjutsu wasn't good enough to pull that off in the very scan you provided.



But he was also the only one they could think of who came close to fitting the bill; it's rather interesting that nobody even considered the possibility of Madara himself being behind it. Or Shisui.



> And I'd have to go back and reread it but I highly doubt that they didn't realize he was there and was just pulling his name out of their asses.



As someone who hangs on every punctuation mark related to Itachi, I can tell you with reasonable certainty that Itachi had not yet made it to any of the battlefields by that point; he and Nagato had separated from Kakuzu and went into seclusion. They even discussed why they were being kept in reserve, and the two of them agreed it was probably to make use of Itachi's Genjutsu at a critical moment (which Shikaku's suspicions later corroborated, sort of; turned out to be Kishi feeding us another red herring, but the message is still clear--Itachi's one of the most skilled Genjutsu users ever and there are some things only he can do).

To just say Itachi is good at Genjutsu because he has Sharingan is frighteningly stupid.


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## StickaStick (Mar 11, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> You want a message from Kishi directly expressing the legitimacy of his word? He hasn't even done that with the manga.


Going to have to agreed to disagree here. When DB stats explicitly contradict what's being shown or explained in the manga; when it claims characters such as Kurenai and Oro sport a 5 in genjutsu despite zero relevant hype or feats to back it up; and when Kishi's own involvement in their publication is questionable I can't take them seriously. That's not even considering the inherent flaws of a simplistic 0-5 scale. Unless you want to tell me Kurenai and Oro are just as good at genjutsu as Itachi is.



Nikushimi said:


> It was alluded to, yes, but whether or not it happened by that point remains controversial due to Itachi's explicit statistical superiority and later the testimony of ninja such as Danzou that he was STILL better than Sasuke in that regard. Mind you, Itachi jobbing serves as a perfect alternative explanation, even if it isn't necessarily provable.


Danzo and Obito made the same point BZ did: that while Itachi may have been wielding a shuriken (MS), Sasuke was more skilled with his rock (3-tomoe). Not sure what there is to debate here.



Nikushimi said:


> Possibly, but the point is that Kabuto is the furthest a "normal" shinobi can get from being totally vulnerable to Genjutsu, and even he didn't want to be caught in Itachi's; I pointed this out in response to Senjuclan's belittling of the opponents Itachi's Genjutsu has actually affected.


You continue to make this about Itachi went it's not; more likely it was for Sasuke and regardless Kabuto would have done the same with ANY individual with a reputation for proficiency in genjutsu. This is not a testament to Itachi's proficiency in genjutsu but rather Kabuto's meticulous preparation. 



Nikushimi said:


> There is no implication; an implication would mean there is a semantic or contextual proof that only Obito or Madara can control the Kyuubi, which there is not--they are simply the only ones who have had the opportunity, which doesn't imply anything other than the fact that they were the only Sharingan users to actually face the Kyuubi on-panel. So, in this case, an outright statement or at least some piece of suggestive evidence is in fact necessary.


I don't understand your line of reasoning. They're the only ones who've had the opportunity canonically because that's the way Kishi has chosen to depict it. Btw, I never said they were the only ones that _can _control the Kyuubi, but instead the only ones who have been shown to possess the necessary skill to do so as that chapter of the story is probably done with.

Also, I don't know why you're trying to argue that it could have been anyone other than Obito controlling Yagura when it's clear Obito is the one Kisame met with and more importantly, there's nothing to suggest it wasn't Obito. If you're excepting some new revelation I imagine you're going to be disappointed.


----------



## God (Mar 11, 2014)

madara
obito
nagato/pein
naruto
sasuke
hashirama
minato
tobirama

that's it


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## Almondsand (Mar 11, 2014)

That "Tsukyomi" that Hebi Sasuke supposedly broke was meant to happen, first of all the jutsu wasn't even red and black. Itachi wasn't taking the fight serious where he was trying to hurt Sasuke. 

Also Obito have not shown any genjutsu during battle, he only does genjutsu off screen. Featwise Itachi is superior to him. Madara also barely uses genjutsu. Sasuke as well. The only Uchiha shown to use it exclusively for battle is Itachi.  All Itachi needs to do is hold up a fighter in one normal genjutsu for a second and then physically kill them.

Orochimaru have better genjutsu feats than any of the Uchiha shown on screen and a perfect 5 in the databook and he was owned easily. He also was meant to be chosen over Minato as Hokage and only lost the position because of his evil ways. The fourth have not shown anything close to Orochimaru's level of arsenal and/or genjutsu feats.


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## Magicbullet (Mar 11, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> Orochimaru have better genjutsu feats than any of the Uchiha shown on screen and a perfect 5 in the databook and he was owned easily. He also was meant to be chosen over Minato as Hokage and only lost the position because of his evil ways. The fourth have not shown anything close to Orochimaru's level of arsenal and/or genjutsu feats.



wat? 

**


----------



## Edo Madara (Mar 11, 2014)

-Kabuto
-Nagato
(These people above are took down by teamwork, so no itachi solo)

Minato, Madara, Obito, Kakashi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 11, 2014)

The Format said:


> Going to have to agreed to disagree here. When DB stats explicitly contradict what's being shown or explained in the manga; when it claims characters such as Kurenai and Oro sport a 5 in genjutsu despite zero relevant hype or feats to back it up; and when Kishi's own involvement in their publication is questionable I can't take them seriously. That's not even considering the inherent flaws of a simplistic 0-5 scale. Unless you want to tell me Kurenai and Oro are just as good at genjutsu as Itachi is.



Not all side characters can get as much attention as the major ones, so Ksihmoto can't obviously justify those scores for everyone. That however  isn't to say that we can dismiss them because we believe they aren't perfectly accurate, if the author tells us that is the case then we are to believe it is.

Also those numbers are tiers, so yes Orochimaru and Itachi can be in the same tier.

Its like getting an A for a course in universtiy. Not all A students have the same amount of aptitude.
Don't overthink it.



> Danzo and Obito made the same point BZ did: that while Itachi may have been wielding a shuriken (MS), Sasuke was more skilled with his rock (3-tomoe). Not sure what there is to debate here.


Thats what Zetsu thought, and eventually so did we. But that was before we were told that Itachi was throwing the fight.

Sticking to what zetsu said is basically ignoring chapter 397 & onwards, as well as the databook which was published after those events.



> You continue to make this about Itachi went it's not; more likely it was for Sasuke and regardless Kabuto would have done the same with ANY individual with a reputation for proficiency in genjutsu. This is not a testament to Itachi's proficiency in genjutsu but rather Kabuto's meticulous preparation.



Kabuto's meticulous preparation is the result of Itachi's genjutsu prowess, so yes it is about Itachi.

Thats like saying, "I took my umbrella with me because I am so smart, it has nothing to do with the pouring down rain."



> I don't understand your line of reasoning. They're the only ones who've had the opportunity canonically because that's the way Kishi has chosen to depict it. Btw, I never said they were the only ones that _can _control the Kyuubi, but instead the only ones who have been shown to possess the necessary skill to do so as that chapter of the story is probably done with.
> 
> Also, I don't know why you're trying to argue that it could have been anyone other than Obito controlling Yagura when it's clear Obito is the one Kisame met with and more importantly, there's nothing to suggest it wasn't Obito. If you're excepting some new revelation I imagine you're going to be disappointed.



I doubt there'll be a revelation about the Yagura case at this point, but I am 100% sure that Kishimoto planned to do so in the past. Otherwise the whole AO, Yagura, KotoAmatsukami and Danzo thing will be left hanging in the air, as it is now.
I don't think Ao likened the genjutsu that trapped Yagura to KotoAmatsukami for no reason. 




Vice said:


> All of Itachi's best genjutsu feats can be directly attributed to Sharingan hax, not to his propensity for it itself and even then he falls short to Obito and Madara. Without it he's merely besting chunins or getting owned by a flute. Obito was able to keep a perfect jin under for years, Itachi couldn't even keep one down for 30 seconds.
> 
> Itachi is really good with genjutsu of course, but the notion that he is the end all be all of it is a fanmade one and not supported by actual canon.



Itachi cast a genjutsu that overrode the control of Edo tensei, something which was deemed impossible. 

Being able to control Yagura under unknown circumstances surely doesn't measure up to that.


----------



## Vice (Mar 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi cast a genjutsu that overrode the control of Edo tensei, something which was deemed impossible.



Yes. With Shisui's genjutsu.



> Being able to control Yagura under unknown circumstances surely doesn't measure up to that.



Sure it does if Itachi is incapable of replicating it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 11, 2014)

Vice said:


> Yes. With Shisui's genjutsu.


No, with Shisui's eye.

Itachi using KotoAmatsukami is no different than Kakashi using Kamui. Only that Itachi made use of it in a very unconventional way and came off as more impressive but thats besides the point.



> Sure it does if Itachi is incapable of replicating it.



That'd be correct if Itachi had attempted to use the same(or similar) genjutsu under the same(or similar) circumstances on the same(or a similar) person and failed, but we both know that it is impossible to tell because we absolutely have no idea about the circumstanes which Obito cast genjutsu on the Mizukage.

Food for thought : 

We know for a fact that Obito can't even successfully maintain a genjutsu on Kakashi.

So in that sense, you don't mind me saying this.  Obito can't mentally collapse Kakashi and put him in a coma with a genjutsu under 1 second, in other words he is incapable of replicating what Itachi did. 

What are the implications of that ?


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## Alex Payne (Mar 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We know for a fact that Obito can't even successfully maintain a genjutsu on Kakashi.
> 
> So in that sense, you don't mind me saying this.  Obito can't mentally collapse Kakashi and put him in a coma with a genjutsu under 1 second, in other words he is incapable of replicating what Itachi did.
> 
> What are the implications of that ?



I don't think it is fare to argue that Part 1 Kakashi with 3-tomoe performance and Part 2 Kakashi with mastered MS who also said that Tsukuyomi won't work on him anymore are going to perform equally when faced with Itachi's genjutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 11, 2014)

alex payne said:


> I don't think it is fare to argue that Part 1 Kakashi with 3-tomoe performance and Part 2 Kakashi with mastered MS who also said that Tsukuyomi won't work on him anymore are going to perform equally when faced with Itachi's genjutsu.


But its fair to compare unknown circumstances of Obito controlling Yagura to Itachi vs B ?

Also Kakashi never said Tsukiyomi wouldn't work on him, nor there is any reason for us to believe why it wouldn't.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 11, 2014)

Just after hinting that he got MS Kakashi says that it won't be like the last time. He either got different-than-MS counter or was thinking that his MS would provide sufficient defense by itself. And it was back _then_. Current Kakashi with his latest feats vs Tsukuyomi? Going with Kakashi here.


----------



## Vice (Mar 11, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Well.
> 
> That's a lie.



No it isn't. An impressive genjutsu feat from Itachi without the Sharingan doesn't exist.



> Obito's only feat is hypnotizing an exhausted Konan while Madara's only feats are paralyzing a fodder ninja and recounting a history lesson to Obito through images (while connected to the Gedou Mazo). Other than those very basic feats, they both brainwashed the Kyuubi, which is supposed to be an inherent power of the Mangekyou Sharingan (one that Itachi never got a chance to test).



No, the Mangekyou Sharingan is necessary to do it, nothing suggests you automatically gain the ability to do so once you activate it.



> And Orochimaru, and Kakashi, and Kurenai, and Sage Kabuto...



Sharingan, Sharingan, Sharingan and Sharingan.



> Used by Sage Kabuto, when Itachi doesn't know about that Jutsu.



Unless he's bringing ear plugs with him, knowledge ain't going to help.



> There's no proof it was Obito's Genjutsu.



There's no proof it wasn't. Kishi's telling a story here, he's not subscribing to some fanclub logic and he's not writing it based on a battledome perspective. If his story requires that Obito has better genjutsu feats than Itachi, so be it.

For now, assuming it wasn't Obito's genjutsu is just baseless speculation.



> Itachi has much better feats than Obito and Madara, excluding Kyuubi control (which he hasn't been given the opportunity to attempt).



No he doesn't. Controlling the Kyuubi and a jinchuuriki is much better than what Itachi has done.



> Shisui may or may not be better in general, regardless of how Kotoamatsukami compares to the specific Jutsu in Itachi's move set (Shisui having been the best Genjutsu user at the time of his death...doesn't mean he wasn't surpassed by Itachi later; we have no way of knowing).



Sure he is. It was stated in black and white and wasn't refuted by Itachi. 



> AP is right; there's no point in even having this argument, when it's clear from the fact that Itachi was the very first person they thought of that they were acknowledging his _unique_ level of proficiency.



They also quickly dismissed him about as soon as they thought of him.



> But he was also the only one they could think of who came close to fitting the bill; it's rather interesting that nobody even considered the possibility of Madara himself being behind it. Or Shisui.



Are they even aware of Obito's feats? 



> As someone who hangs on every punctuation mark related to Itachi, I can tell you with reasonable certainty that Itachi had not yet made it to any of the battlefields by that point; he and Nagato had separated from Kakuzu and went into seclusion. They even discussed why they were being kept in reserve, and the two of them agreed it was probably to make use of Itachi's Genjutsu at a critical moment (which Shikaku's suspicions later corroborated, sort of; turned out to be Kishi feeding us another red herring, but the message is still clear--Itachi's one of the most skilled Genjutsu users ever and there are some things only he can do).



Nobody's questioning that Itachi is good at genjutsu, I'm just saying his strength in it is exaggerated because of the Sharingan.



> To just say Itachi is good at Genjutsu because he has Sharingan is frighteningly stupid.



Then I'll ask for an impressive feat from Itachi that doesn't include Sharingan hax.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> No, with Shisui's eye.
> 
> Itachi using KotoAmatsukami is no different than Kakashi using Kamui.



Flimsy comparison at best.



> Only that Itachi made use of it in a very unconventional way and came off as more impressive but thats besides the point.



lol. It was pure circumstance that it even worked. Itachi wasn't even sure as to what the outcome was going to be.



> That'd be correct if Itachi had attempted to use the same(or similar) genjutsu under the same(or similar) circumstances on the same(or a similar) person and failed, but we both know that it is impossible to tell because we absolutely have no idea about the circumstanes which Obito cast genjutsu on the Mizukage.



I would assume a perfect jinchuuriki is similar to a perfect jinchuuriki in this context, thus we've already seen how the two fair comparatively.



> Food for thought :
> 
> We know for a fact that Obito can't even successfully maintain a genjutsu on Kakashi.
> 
> ...



Maybe we need to stop pretending that Tsukuyomi would have a similar effect on current Kakashi as it did to part 1 Kakashi or that Kakashi is incapable of being as good at genjutsu as Itachi is. Itachi's genjutsu is only infallible to his fanbase, Kishi certainly doesn't think so.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 11, 2014)

Vice said:


> Flimsy comparison at best.



How so ? 

It is exactly the same. They both got eyes from a friend and made use of it with their own skill.



> lol. It was pure circumstance that it even worked. Itachi wasn't even sure as to what the outcome was going to be.



I was talking about the way he utilized the technique (preprogramming it and putting it inside a crow with a complex trigger on it. That is some advanced shit), not the circumstances that allowed him to use it.
But like I said, it is besides the point.




> I would assume a perfect jinchuuriki is similar to a perfect jinchuuriki in this context, thus we've already seen how the two fair comparatively.



They might be. But I'd assume their experience and intelligence would also factor in as well as the circumstances which allowed Obito to cast genjutsu on Yagura. Assuming it was him that cast the genjutsu, as far as we know Obito has no genjutsu under his disposal that is like KotoAmatsukami though. If he did, he wouldn't be so eager to steal Shisui's eye from Danzo.

In other words, we absolutely have no idea how Obito managed that.
If you think Obito cast a 3 tomoe genjutsu during mid combat and outright controlled Yagura with it, then  you are taking a huge leap.

Either it was a sub story that Kishimoto never found the opportunity to expand on, or he simply threw it out there without thinking about it.




> Maybe we need to stop pretending that Tsukuyomi would have a similar effect on current Kakashi as it did to part 1 Kakashi or that Kakashi is incapable of being as good at genjutsu as Itachi is. Itachi's genjutsu is only infallible to his fanbase, Kishi certainly doesn't think so.



Actually there is no reason to assume  that it wouldn't have the same effect. Kakashi is till not an Uchiha despite his magical stamina increase(which might be the biggest improvement he had since then) and his MS wasn't a viable defense as he tried to avoid eye contact regardless in the second encounter they met.

Two things you need to adress ;

Itachi's usage of Koto to override ET's control which made Kabuto shit his pants, and Itachi OHKO'ing Kakashi under 1 second with genjutsu(which Obito certainly wasn't capable of replicating).

I'd say Itachi is a better genjutsu user than Obito. 

If Obito in the future brings Kakashi down with genjutsu, then I'd consider him Itachi's equal.



alex payne said:


> Just after hinting that he got MS Kakashi says that* it won't be like the last time*. He either got different-than-MS counter or was thinking that his MS would provide sufficient defense by itself. And it was back _then_. Current Kakashi with his latest feats vs Tsukuyomi? Going with Kakashi here.



And you interpreted it as "Tsukiyomi won't work on me."  

Kakashi said "it won't be like the last time" because he had learned not to look into his eyes, from Gai as we were shown with the flashback.

And Despite his MS, he was avoiding eye contact, which leads me to believe that his MS wouldn't make a big difference.


----------



## Vice (Mar 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How so ?
> 
> It is exactly the same. They both got eyes from a friend and made use of it with their own skill.



Except Kakashi can freely cast and use Kamui anytime by his own power whereas Itachi is limited to merely manipulating the eye.



> I was talking about the way he utilized the technique (preprogramming it and putting it inside a crow with a complex trigger on it. That is some advanced shit), not the circumstances that allowed him to use it.
> But like I said, it is besides the point.



It's still Shisui's jutsu and should be attributed as such. Without Shisui's eye and proficiency in genjutsu, Itachi would have been right fucked.



> They might be. But I'd assume their experience and intelligence would also factor in



Common sense would dictate a kage would have plenty of experience and intelligence. Certainly more so than the idiot that is Killer Bee.



> as well as the circumstances which allowed Obito to cast genjutsu on Yagura. Assuming it was him that cast the genjutsu, as far as we know Obito has no genjutsu under his disposal that is like KotoAmatsukami though. If he did, he wouldn't be so eager to steal Shisui's eye from Danzo.
> 
> In other words, we absolutely have no idea how Obito managed that.
> If you think Obito cast a 3 tomoe genjutsu during mid combat and outright controlled Yagura with it, then  you are taking a huge leap.
> ...



As far as we know Obito cast a genjutsu and controlled a perfect jin because that's what's in the story, anything more than that is baseless speculation. For now, what's canon is canon.



> Actually there is no reason to assume  that it wouldn't have the same effect. Kakashi is till not an Uchiha despite his magical stamina increase(which might be the biggest improvement he had since then)



I would assume going from a 3-tomoe Sharingan to the Mangekyou Sharingan is a huge leap in improvement.



> and his MS wasn't a viable defense as he tried to avoid eye contact regardless in the second encounter they met.



Playing defense is the intelligent thing to do, yes? No reason for him to attempt to tank it if he doesn't have to, this isn't a dick measuring contest.



> Two things you need to adress ;
> 
> Itachi's usage of Koto to override ET's control which made Kabuto shit his pants



Shisui's genjutsu.



> and Itachi OHKO'ing Kakashi under 1 second with genjutsu(which Obito certainly wasn't capable of replicating).



Kyuubi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> part 1 Kakashi



> I'd say Itachi is a better genjutsu user than Obito.



Of course you would, that's the problem here.



> If Obito in the future brings Kakashi down with genjutsu, then I'd consider him Itachi's equal.



1. Kakashi's currently stronger than the Kakashi Itachi put down, so that would automatically make him better based on your logic.

2. He's already put the kyuubi and a perfect jin under. He doesn't need to put Kakashi down, his feats are already superior.


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 11, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Make a factually incorrect claim? Yeah.
> 
> Look, if you're not going to take this seriously, then I have better things to waste my time on.



I am using an absurd argument to show you how absurd yours is. Yagura is a perfect jin. To argue whether or not he has a particular resistance to genjutsu is tantamount to arguing whether or not Itachi has a particular skill with genjutsu even though he has a sharingan



Nikushimi said:


> Because if a method can be found to get around that one special defense, then Yagura is as vulnerable as any other Doujutsu-less Kage-level ninja.



No. It just shows that Obito's genjutsu is a higher tier than other genjutsu. Just because there is an exception to a rule it does not mean one should throw out the baby with the bathwater



Nikushimi said:


> Kisame inferred that based on the sight of Obito's Sharingan. We still lack direct confirmation, and Obito certainly hasn't displayed such a Genjutsu before or since.



Shikaku inferred that Itachi could control people from a long distance and you have no problem with the validity of that inference, do you? 

The purpose of those panels was to communicate the fact that Kisame met "Madara", who was the one controlling Yagura



Nikushimi said:


> It's not necessarily "better" because there's no guarantee Itachi could replicate it with any of his Genjutsu no matter how much of a hypothetical power/skill boost he received; it's just different than what Itachi has proved equipped to do--although, again, the jury's still out on Tsukuyomi.



1. Did you mean to say no guarantee Itachi could NOT replicate it?
2. Hypothetical arguments about power/skill boost are not the issue here. We are discussing what Itachi has been shown to do and how that compares to others. 



Nikushimi said:


> Gee that's helpful.



I am happy I was helpful 

On a seriousl note, please do not ask me questions about stuff yo already know the answer to. If you think there is a specific problem with the established canon, bring it up. Otherwise, you are wasting both our time



Nikushimi said:


> Via the partner method.
> 
> Which the manga also says doesn't work against Tsukuyomi.



No, which the manga says does not work for a higher tier of genjutsu that Itachi does not have



Nikushimi said:


> It's a lot stronger than most Genjutsu, and that trait you just described is precisely the complicating factor here (when talking about affecting a perfect Jinchuuriki).



That trait is an illusion. It is not actually a real life effect. So, once one stops that illusion, one does not suffer real life consequences. In other words, it is no different from a paralysis genjutsu. One thinks he is paralyzed when in actuality one is not. Well, for tsukuyomi one thinks he is being tortured for days when in actuality he is not. 



Nikushimi said:


> Because you are unwilling to acknowledge the fact that it is still unknown and unknowable; you are convinced of something for which you do not have adequate proof. I appreciate that you're taking the time to talk about it anyway, but you don't seem to be taking this conversation very seriously.



I am taking this conversation seriously. I just don't take some your histrionics seriously. 

However, having said that Occam'z razor leads me to believe that there is no discussion worth having. Tsukuyomi is an illusory jutsu like any other. We have seen that its effects are not permanent once the illusion is broken (by the sharingan). Unless you are of the mind that the sharingan has the ability to control the flow of time to erase the past, then it stands to reason that tsukuyomi effects are not permanent when the illusion of prolonged time is broken. Ergo, if a bijuu were to break the illusion, tsukuyomi effects will be erased.  



Nikushimi said:


> It is the only Genjutsu we've seen that can do that. That isn't just special, it's unique.



Sure. It is as unique as a genjutsu that makes one think one is paralyzed. As special is a genjutsu that makes one lose one's sense of perspective on location. It is an illusion. 



Nikushimi said:


> Other Genjutsu don't allow the caster to freely control time, space, and physical mass in an alternate plane, the way Tsukuyomi does. Most of them just do one specific thing, like paralyze or create false images; Tsukuyomi can do both, and apparently even hypnotize to extract information, among an indefinite number of other things.



Tsukuyomi does no such thing. What it does is give the ILLUSION that time is longer than it actually is. The user determines just how much he wants one to have that illusion. 

It is no different than having the illusion of being restrained by a snake, or having the illusion of being restrained by stakes or having the illusion of having lost one's sight or having the illusion of being attacked by one's friends. They are all illusion. Itachi does not control time or space. What he controls is the perception of time and space by the victim. He gives the victim the illusion that he is in a space of his choosing and is being tortured for a time of his choosing. That is an ILLUSION, that is why tsukuyomi is a genjutsu and not ninjutsu. It is all fake perception



Nikushimi said:


> 1. Fair enough.
> 2. But that is precisely the problem--Tsukuyomi is different from "other Genjutsu."



NOPE! It is an illusion just like the others. The only difference is that in this illusion one is being tortured and under the impression that said torture lasts for days, hence why it leads to a psychosomatic breakdown of the body.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 11, 2014)

Vice said:


> Except Kakashi can freely cast and use Kamui anytime by his own power whereas Itachi is limited to merely manipulating the eye.




What does "merely manipulating the eye" mean ? 

Itachi can cast Koto Tsukami through Shisui's eye. Just like Kakashi can use Kamui through Obito's eye.

Stop grasping @ straws and admit that I am right 



> It's still Shisui's jutsu and should be attributed as such. Without Shisui's eye and proficiency in genjutsu, Itachi would have been right fucked.


What proficiency ? Are you suggesting that Shisui is using his own skill from the land of the dead ?

I guess everytime Kakashi uses Kamui it is Obito's dojutsu aptitude not his 



> Common sense would dictate a kage would have plenty of experience and intelligence. Certainly more so than the idiot that is Killer Bee.


Yagura was a fucking kid. Even Naruto was like "who the fuck is this kid?" Who says he was any different than Gaara when he was first appointed as the Kage ?

Also Hachibee is pretty knowledgeable and wise. That doesn't mean every Bijuu is the same as him.



> As far as we know *Obito cast a genjutsu* and controlled a perfect jin because that's what's in the story, anything more than that is baseless speculation. For now, what's canon is canon.



It actually doesn't say that.
We know that Obito can control Mizukage through a genjutsu which was cast on him under unknown circumstances.

You are fine with connecting dots when it suits your purpose and turn a blind eye when they don't.
Naw.




> I would assume going from a 3-tomoe Sharingan to the Mangekyou Sharingan is a huge leap in improvement.
> 
> Playing defense is the intelligent thing to do, yes? No reason for him to attempt to tank it if he doesn't have to, this isn't a dick measuring contest.


Then why didn't he avoid Itachi's eyes the first time they met ? Because he thought sharingan would grant him resistance. If he thought MS would cut it, then he wouldn't avoid Itachi's stare.

This isn't rocket science, this is a simple fact. Kakashi didn't think he'd be able to resist Tsukiyomi thus he avoided eye contact.



> Shisui's genjutsu.


Obito's Kamui.




> Kyuubi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> part 1 Kakashi



In regards to what ? Genjutsu defense ? Says who ?

Madara walked up to him and said "obey" and controlled him like a puppet. So did Obito and yet Obito wasn't able to do shit to Kakashi with genjutsu.



> Of course you would, that's the problem here.


I don't see a problem when everything I said is right within the manga.




> 1. Kakashi's currently stronger than the Kakashi Itachi put down, so that would automatically make him better based on your logic.



Not that current Kakashi has better genjutsu aptitude than before but ok, fair enough.

I'll rephrase what I said. If Obito can OHKO Kakashi with genjutsu, then I'll admit that Obito is superior to Itachi.



> 2. He's already put the kyuubi and a perfect jin under. He doesn't need to put Kakashi down, his feats are already superior.


Lol, love that logic.
But no, the fact that Obito can control Kyuubi and fail to do so with Kakashi means that Kakashi is better suited to resist Obito's genjutsu.

That is supported by the fact that MS grants control over Kyuubi.


----------



## StickaStick (Mar 11, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> That "Tsukyomi" that Hebi Sasuke supposedly broke was meant to happen, first of all the jutsu wasn't even red and black. Itachi wasn't taking the fight serious where he was trying to hurt Sasuke.
> 
> Also Obito have not shown any genjutsu during battle, he only does genjutsu off screen. Featwise Itachi is superior to him. Madara also barely uses genjutsu. Sasuke as well. The only Uchiha shown to use it exclusively for battle is Itachi.  All Itachi needs to do is hold up a fighter in one normal genjutsu for a second and then physically kill them.
> 
> Orochimaru have better genjutsu feats than any of the Uchiha shown on screen and a perfect 5 in the databook and he was owned easily. He also was meant to be chosen over Minato as Hokage and only lost the position because of his evil ways. The fourth have not shown anything close to Orochimaru's level of arsenal and/or genjutsu feats.


There's nothing to indicate Itachi wasn't going 100% all out (as far as his body would allow him) in his fight against Sasuke with the exception of holding back Susannoo; and even that is IC for Itachi as a "last resort". Obito's statement about Itachi tanking the fight doesn't even necessarily contradict the effort that Itachi was putting forth. I'd wager to guess Itachi meant to paralyze Sasuke w/ Tsukuyomi then do the same thing he did at the end of their actual fight (head poke, etc.) thus forgoing the trouble of playing things out and risking killing him (which he almost ended up doing).

So what if Obito doesn't do genjutsu on-screen? No one's saying he would use it in an actual battle, however he is attributed better feats than anything Itachi has shown.

Your point about Oro simply isn't true and is quite laughable.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Not all side characters can get as much attention as the major ones, so Ksihmoto can't obviously justify those scores for everyone. That however  isn't to say that we can dismiss them because we believe they aren't perfectly accurate, if the author tells us that is the case then we are to believe it is.
> 
> Also those numbers are tiers, so yes Orochimaru and Itachi can be in the same tier.
> 
> ...


Which is obviously flawed. It's like someone passing the course with a 100% and me passing with 90% yet we're both grouped together in the 'A' category. It also doesn't address situations were the DB stats clearly contradict what we're being shown in the manga. I can't take them seriously.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats what Zetsu thought, and eventually so did we. But that was before we were told that Itachi was throwing the fight.
> 
> Sticking to what zetsu said is basically ignoring chapter 397 & onwards, as well as the databook which was published after those events.


See my response to Almondsand.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kabuto's meticulous preparation is the result of Itachi's genjutsu prowess, so yes it is about Itachi.
> 
> Thats like saying, "I took my umbrella with me because I am so smart, it has nothing to do with the pouring down rain."


Again, Kabuto wasn't even expecting to fight Itachi. Much more probable is that it was prepared for Sasuke. Either way, Kabuto would have done the same against anyone with a reputation for proficiency in genjutsu.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> I doubt there'll be a revelation about the Yagura case at this point, but I am 100% sure that Kishimoto planned to do so in the past. Otherwise the whole AO, Yagura, KotoAmatsukami and Danzo thing will be left hanging in the air, as it is now.
> I don't think Ao likened the genjutsu that trapped Yagura to KotoAmatsukami for no reason.


Ao likened it to Koto because in his mind it was as if Yagura was under a Koto like effect, which he was. I don't think he was necessarily suggesting it might actually have been Koto when we know Obito didn't have access to Shisui's eye(s) It seems to me some ppl just have a problem with admitting that Obito is capable of such a genjutsu feat when that's what the story has dictated and thus is. If things play out the way they are now it being Obito by himself makes the most sense.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi cast a genjutsu that overrode the control of Edo tensei, something which was deemed impossible.
> 
> Being able to control Yagura under unknown circumstances surely doesn't measure up to that.


When was it ever even hinted that Koto couldn't override ET? Koto merely changed Itachi's "directions" but didn't break him free of its binding properties as would be expected. And no IMO it's not as impressive since it's a one-time thing while Obito's control of Yagura speaks his overall ability. Really, Itachi's Koto-implanted crow doesn't even speak to HIS proficiency in genjutsu anyway, so what's the point?

Edit: Why is it surprising Kakashi would be capable of high-level genjutsu defense? He probably practiced that shit like hell after his first encounter with Itachi and even hinted that Tsukuyomi might not work on him the second time.


----------



## Vice (Mar 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What does "merely manipulating the eye" mean ?



It means exactly as it sounds. Itachi can only program what the eye does, he is incapable of casting the genjutsu under his own power or skill.



> Itachi can cast Koto Tsukami through Shisui's eye. Just like Kakashi can use Kamui through Obito's eye.



Except that Kakashi has the eye implanted into him and thus can cast Kamui under his own merits and has shown the ability to improve upon its usage.



> Stop grasping @ straws and admit that I am right



Grasping at straws is what you're doing trying to make this silly comparison in the first place.



> What proficiency ? Are you suggesting that Shisui is using his own skill from the land of the dead ?



The skill that granted him Kotoamatsukami and the title of best genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan. 

I am merely suggesting that Koto is Shisui's jutsu, which it is, and you are mistakenly attributing it's power and mechanics to Itachi, which it shouldn't be.



> I guess everytime Kakashi uses Kamui it is Obito's dojutsu aptitude not his



Except Kakashi can freely use Kamui under his own power, Itachi cannot do the same with Koto.



> Yagura was a fucking kid. Even Naruto was like "who the fuck is this kid?" Who says he was any different than Gaara when he was first appointed as the Kage ?
> 
> Also Hachibee is pretty knowledgeable and wise. That doesn't mean every Bijuu is the same as him.



In the context of protecting themselves from genjutsu via the partner method, I see nothing that would be different here.



> It actually doesn't say that.
> We know that Obito can control Mizukage through a genjutsu which was cast on him under unknown circumstances.



Certainly it does.



> You are fine with connecting dots when it suits your purpose and turn a blind eye when they don't.
> Naw.



And you are fine with making up baseless speculations just to protect your fanboy ideology. 



> Then why didn't he avoid Itachi's eyes the first time they met ? Because he thought sharingan would grant him resistance. If he thought MS would cut it, then he wouldn't avoid Itachi's stare.



Okay... and that's still 3-tomoe Sharingan from part 1 Kakashi. 



> This isn't rocket science, this is a simple fact. Kakashi didn't think he'd be able to resist Tsukiyomi thus he avoided eye contact.



See, that's the problem. You judge everything based on what happened 300 chapters ago and not what's happening now.



> Obito's Kamui.



Kakashi can show growth and improvement with his Kamui under his own ability, power and skill, Itachi with Koto cannot.



> In regards to what ? Genjutsu defense ? Says who ?



In regards to everything via the manga.



> Madara walked up to him and said "obey" and controlled him like a puppet.



Yes, because he's Madara.



> So did Obito and yet Obito wasn't able to do shit to Kakashi with genjutsu.



So then it could be that we're underestimating Kakashi's genjutsu proficiency, are we not?



> I don't see a problem when everything I said is right within the manga.



Obito uses genjutsu on a perfect jin - subjugated for years

Itachi uses genjutsu on a perfect jin - subjugated for ten seconds



> Not that current Kakashi has better genjutsu aptitude than before but ok, fair enough.



Sure he does, you just cited an example that shows this.



> I'll rephrase what I said. If Obito can OHKO Kakashi with genjutsu, then I'll admit that Obito is superior to Itachi.



Obito subjugated a perfect jin which Itachi could not, he's already better.



> Lol, love that logic.
> But no, the fact that Obito can control Kyuubi and fail to do so with Kakashi means that Kakashi is better suited to resist Obito's genjutsu.



Kakashi has the Mangekyou, a 5 in intelligence and is at least proficient enough in genjutsu now to be in the conversation with Itachi. Like I said, the notion that Itachi is infallible in genjutsu is a fanmade one and not supported by canon. 

Let's look at the facts:

Obito and Madara have feats that place them above Itachi.

Shisui is stated to be better at genjutsu than Itachi.

Sasuke has the EMS, which at the very least makes him comparible

Kabuto has placed Itachi in a genjutsu that he is incapable of escaping on his own.

Jiraiya via Frog Song and 2nd Mizukage via Clam genjutsu should be able to beat Itachi via their mechanics.

Kakashi is in the conversation via feats against Obito.

So yes, Itachi being infallible in genjutsu is a fan theory used in the battledome and not supported by canon at all.



> That is supported by the fact that MS grants control over Kyuubi.



MS is the requirement, it doesn't automatically grant one the ability to do so.


----------



## Kai (Mar 11, 2014)

The specifics of Yagura being controlled by Obito are unknown. Another medium may have been introduced for control, as a long-term genjutsu able to subdue a perfect jin for years is a power quite deviant from Obito's known prowess with genjutsu.

If Obito could apply perfect-jin controlling genjutsu into combat, one would think many would fall to Obito's illusions.

Itachi has the greatest library of genjutsu and has what are deemed to be the ultimate/most powerful illusions ? Tsukuyomi, Izanami, and an inherited Kotoamatsukami from Shisui. He also has the technique where he can reverse illusions back at the opponent. Taking these things into consideration, Itachi is a greater genjutsu user than Obito. 

That being said, Pre-Rin'negan Tobi > Live Itachi


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 11, 2014)

Kai said:


> The specifics of Yagura being controlled by Obito are unknown. Another medium may have been introduced for control, as a long-term genjutsu able to subdue a perfect jin for years is a power quite deviant from Obito's known prowess with genjutsu.
> 
> If Obito could apply perfect-jin controlling genjutsu into combat, one would think many would fall to Obito's illusions.



The same could be said of many ninjas who do not use jutsus they have under circumstances it makes sense to use them. 

Why did Tobirama not teleport his entire team to Konoha when he was being followed by Kin-Gin for example? 

Thing is the manga states it was genjutsu and we should accept it. You guys don't want to accept it because it is inconvenient 



Kai said:


> Itachi has the greatest library of genjutsu and has what are deemed to be the ultimate/most powerful illusions ? Tsukuyomi, Izanami, and an inherited Kotoamatsukami from Shisui. He also has the technique where he can reverse illusions back at the opponent. Taking these things into consideration, Itachi is a greater genjutsu user than Obito.
> 
> That being said, Pre-Rin'negan Tobi > Live Itachi



Obito knows Izanami and Izanagi since Madara taught him Uchiha kinjutsu. Add to that a kotoamatsukami type genjutsu that controls a perfect jin and he is superior to Itachi.


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## Kai (Mar 11, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> The same could be said of many ninjas who do not use jutsus they have under circumstances it makes sense to use them.
> 
> Why did Tobirama not teleport his entire team to Konoha when he was being followed by Kin-Gin for example?
> 
> Thing is the manga states it was genjutsu and we should accept it. You guys don't want to accept it because it is inconvenient


There is no way to determine so casually how Obito got to control Yagura until we are given a background of Obito's actions within the Hidden Mist.

For 500 chapters we were led to believe Minato defeated Kyuubi by himself. The flashbacks gave us the full picture behind that false idea.



			
				Senjuclan said:
			
		

> Obito knows Izanami and Izanagi since Madara taught him Uchiha kinjutsu. Add to that a kotoamatsukami type genjutsu that controls a perfect jin and he is superior to Itachi.


And Obito uses none of those genjutsu for combat. Itachi is regarded especially for genjutsu in combat.
As for Izanagi, the genjutsu no longer became an option for Obito after he implanted the Rin'negan.

Any feat that occurs outside of a combat situation is going to be far more circumstantial than those performed during serious combat.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 11, 2014)

Kai said:


> There is no way to determine so casually how Obito got to control Yagura until we are given a background of Obito's actions within the Hidden Mist.



It does not matter how he got control over him. It only matters that he controlled him with genjutsu, which is a feat superior to Itachi's



Kai said:


> For 500 chapters we were led to believe Minato defeated Kyuubi by himself. The flashbacks gave us the full picture behind that false idea.



Irrelevant



Kai said:


> And Obito uses none of those genjutsu for combat. Itachi is regarded especially for genjutsu in combat.



Who said that Itachi was"regarded especially for genjutsu in combat"? Show me a panel of anyone saying that



Kai said:


> As for Izanagi, the genjutsu no longer became an option for Obito after he implanted the Rin'negan.



Still remains the fact that he knows it



Kai said:


> Any feat that occurs outside of a combat situation is going to be far more circumstantial than those performed during serious combat.



That is a fake criteria you are using. Show me a panel where the mangaka said or implied such a thing


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 11, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> That doesn't appear to follow from what you said in your last post--in fact, I'm not even sure what that was.



The idea that the Pain arc suggested Minato>Itachi. Itachi's Edo Tensei was far beyond his prime, whereas we have yet to see what Minato's base skill is like.

Like with Nagato (another character portrayed leaps and bounds above Itachi), Kishimoto felt the need to cap Minato by making some limbs unusable. Thus, akin to a Prime Nagato, keeping his full potential hidden.

Unlike with Itachi wherein we learnt Hebi Sasuke vs Itachi displayed Itachi's full potential when he's not using Susnaoo (and when he's slightly slower). In fact Kishimoto felt the need to severely enhance Itachi (see Edo Itachi) to help him compete... even that wasn't enough to put on the same scale as Minato.

In other words feats-wise, portrayal-wise... there is absolutely no reason to believe Itachi's level is comparable to Minato's. The latter was shown to be better.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 11, 2014)

Vice said:


> It means exactly as it sounds. Itachi can only program what the eye does, he is incapable of casting the genjutsu under his own power or skill.



1 million dolar question : 

Whose skill does Itachi rely on when casting Koto ?

a) Boss Crow
b) Shisui
c) Himself



> Except that Kakashi has the eye implanted into him and thus can cast Kamui under his own merits and has shown the ability to improve upon its usage.


What difference is there between Itachi casting the genjutsu through himself or through a proxy ? 

The ability to improve upon its usage is irrelevant to our discussion but yeah lets talk about that too.

Apparently Itachi used Koto once(on himself) and see what that accomplished ? It subdued a Genjtusu Specialist with MS 
Imagine who he'd subdue with further practice ? Rikodou Sennin ? 

And compare that to Kakashi's first Kamui use 



> Grasping at straws is what you're doing trying to make this silly comparison in the first place.



There is absolutely no difference in between Itachi programming Koto and actually using it. Because both require Itachi to understand the jutsu and possess enough skill to use it.
There is also no difference in between Itachi using Koto, a jutsu Shisui's MS possessed and Kakashi using Kamui, a jutsu Obito's MS possesses.

Come on, it still isn't too late. You can admit that I am right and the pain will stop 




> The skill that granted him Kotoamatsukami and the title of best genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan.
> 
> I am merely suggesting that Koto is Shisui's jutsu, which it is, and you are mistakenly attributing it's power and mechanics to Itachi, which it shouldn't be.



It is true that Koto awakened in Shisui's sharingan Just like Kamui awakened in Obito's sharingan.
I'm not exaclty saying that Koto isn't Shisui's jutsu. What I am saying is,* it is anyone's jutsu who possess the eye and the aptitude to use it.*
Just like every other MS jutsu.



> Except Kakashi can freely use Kamui under his own power, Itachi cannot do the same with Koto.


Itachi could not do it for a few reasons.
First and foremost, the eye was in cooldown when he took it. 
Secondly, he chose to use it for another purpose. 

He had the capability of using it. Only the circumstances didn't allow him to* freely* do so.



> In the context of protecting themselves from genjutsu via the partner method, I see nothing that would be different here.


In that sense I agree. Realizing or detecting a genjutsu might require some sort of intelligence or experience though and no offense but 3 tails seems like an autistic kid in that regard.

Fun question : 

If Obito is capable of using genjutsu on a perfect jin and casually controlling them in the heat of the battle like you claim he can(which is the reason why you compare him to Itachi right ?), *then why didn't he do this Naruto or B during their extended encounter ? *

I know you can't answer this, you don't have to. Don't sweat it.



> Certainly it does.


Kisame assumed he did. He was being played though.



> And you are fine with making up baseless speculations just to protect your fanboy ideology.


That doesn't justify your actions and I haven't speculated as much as you did. 



> Okay... and that's still 3-tomoe Sharingan from part 1 Kakashi.


I was comparing their first and second encounter. Kakashi believed his odds weren't good against Tsukiyomi even after awakening MS.



> See, that's the problem. You judge everything based on what happened 300 chapters ago and not what's happening now.


This excuse has gotten old.
Kakashi had Ms back then and still chose to avoid eye contact.



> Kakashi can show growth and improvement with his Kamui under his own ability, power and skill, Itachi with Koto cannot.


And that is relevant how ? 
We aren't debating who can improve the most. Strawman argument detected and avoided.



> In regards to everything via the manga.


Irrelevant. We are talking about genjutsu resistance only here. Kyuubi being stronger than Kakashi doesn't mean he is better suited to counter genjutsu. 



> Yes, because he's Madara.


What about Obito ? 
"Because he is Obito." 



> So then it could be that we're underestimating Kakashi's genjutsu proficiency, are we not?


How did you arrive to that conclusion ?
I just said that Obito couldn't do shit to Kakashi with genjutsu but he was able to control Kyuubi. So Kakashi is more resistant to sharingan genjutsu than Kyuubi is. This is an established fact.



> Obito uses genjutsu on a perfect jin - subjugated for years
> 
> Itachi uses genjutsu on a perfect jin - subjugated for ten seconds



Obito is assumed to have used an unknown genjutsu on a perfect jin under unknown circumstances, subjugated him for an unknown period of time.

Itachi uses regular 3 tomoe sharingan genjutsu on a perfect jin in mid combat and the genjutsu is recognized immediately by the bijuu and gets dispelled.

I don't think two instances are comparable in anyway. Like I already mentioned, if Obito was capable of such a feat, he'd use it on Naruto or B or other people he faced so far.



> Sure he does, you just cited an example that shows this.


When ? 



> Obito subjugated a perfect jin which Itachi could not, he's already better.


Itachi OHKO'd Kakashi whom Obito could not.
Itachi is better.
Funny thing is, these encounters are very comparable, unlike the counters with the perfect jins.



> Kakashi has the Mangekyou, a 5 in intelligence and is at least proficient enough in genjutsu now to be in the conversation with Itachi. Like I said, the notion that Itachi is infallible in genjutsu is a fanmade one and not supported by canon.


Lets compare the hype and display Itachi got for genjutsu and the hype and display Kakashi got for it. Hell, lets pit Itachi against anyone and see what is fanmade or not 



> Let's look at the facts:
> 
> Obito and Madara have feats that place them above Itachi.


No they don't.
Controlling Kyuubi is easier than oneshotting Kakashi, as the manga proves that Kakashi can deal with sharingan genjutsu better than Kyuubi.



> Shisui is stated to be better at genjutsu than Itachi.


Shisui was stated to be the strongest genjutsu user @ the time he was alive.  Nowhere it was stated that he was better than Itachi. It is open to interpretation and even if that is the case, then Itachi is the 2nd most hyped genjutsu user so what ? 



> Sasuke has the EMS, which at the very least makes him comparible


No it doesn't,* you *think it makes him comparable.
Being comparable doesn't mean just as good btw.



> Kabuto has placed Itachi in a genjutsu that he is incapable of escaping on his own.


Being a genjutsu master doesn't mean he can't be genjutsu'd. Kurenai also placed him under a genjutsu.

Also it is purely speculative that he was incapable of escaping on his own. He simply opted for the best and the fastest option that *secured both himself and his brother.*



> Jiraiya via Frog Song and 2nd Mizukage via Clam genjutsu should be able to beat Itachi via their mechanics.


Purely speculative.



> Kakashi is in the conversation via feats against Obito.


No he isn't. He is not even in the radar.



> So yes, Itachi being infallible in genjutsu is a fan theory used in the battledome and not supported by canon at all.



Feats, portrayal and hype place Itachi above everyone in Genjutsu. There is nothing fan made about it.



> MS is the requirement, it doesn't automatically grant one the ability to do so.



It actually does, as the manga stated. 

Hell maybe you need some skill to do be able to do it, but as far as we know there hasn't been a talentless MS user so far. And Itachi being the best genjutsu user and all, should have absolutely no problem doing it.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 11, 2014)

The Format said:


> Which is obviously flawed. It's like someone passing the course with a 100% and me passing with 90% yet we're both grouped together in the 'A' category. It also doesn't address situations were the DB stats clearly contradict what we're being shown in the manga. I can't take them seriously.



Its not flawed, it just leaves room for interpretation. But they still provide us with solid guidelines.

I am not aware of these contradictions but a few of them shouldn't be enough to write off the whole Databook. I mean even the manga contradicts itself from time to time. 

If you can disprove databook bit by bit, be my guest. If not, well with all due respect, no one cares whether you take it seriously or not. It exists and it can and will be used.




> See my response to Almondsand.


I just read the first sentence and I can tell  that you are wrong. Re-read the those chapters, Obito told Sasuke that Itachi was holding back. 



> Again, Kabuto wasn't even expecting to fight Itachi. Much more probable is that it was prepared for Sasuke. Either way, Kabuto would have done the same against *anyone with a reputation for proficiency in genjutsu*.



Thats baseless speculation. Kabuto didn't hide under his hood when he was confronting Obito, nor took any anti genjutsu precautions. 
He did all that after Itachi explained that he'd put him under a genjutsu and force him to undo ET. 
And besides Itachi, who else has so much hype for genjutsu prowess anyway ? 
Who has a track record of dispatching their opponents with genjutsu ? 



> Ao likened it to Koto because in his mind it was as if Yagura was under a Koto like effect, which he was. I don't think he was necessarily suggesting it might actually have been Koto when we know Obito didn't have access to Shisui's eye(s) It seems to me some ppl just have a problem with admitting that Obito is capable of such a genjutsu feat when that's what the story has dictated and thus is. If things play out the way they are now it being Obito by himself makes the most sense.


People have trouble believing Obito is capable of such a genjutsu feat because he had many opportunities to use it thorugh out his encounters but he didn't. Also the incident with Yagura was left unexplained, and Ao's accusations left room for other possiblities, like Obito & Danzo working together etc.



> When was it ever even hinted that Koto couldn't override ET? Koto merely changed Itachi's "directions" but didn't break him free of its binding properties as would be expected. And no IMO it's not as impressive since it's a one-time thing while Obito's control of Yagura speaks his overall ability. Really, Itachi's Koto-implanted crow doesn't even speak to HIS proficiency in genjutsu anyway, so what's the point?


I didn't say that about Koto, I said breaking Edo Tensei's control was deemed impossible.

I don't understand, how didn't Koto break Itachi free ? He broke him free from Kabuto's control.

And the point is, Obito allegedly controlled a perfect Jin, Itachi controlled himself while bypassing the control mechanism of ET in the process. 



> Edit: Why is it surprising Kakashi would be capable of high-level genjutsu defense? He probably practiced that shit like hell after his first encounter with Itachi and even hinted that Tsukuyomi might not work on him the second time.



He never hinted @ such thing, and he avoided eye contact with Itachi. That indicates that he didn't want to take his chances against Tsukiyomi. That means he didn't favor his odds.


----------



## Vice (Mar 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 1 million dolar question :
> 
> Whose skill does Itachi rely on when casting Koto ?
> 
> ...



Look, nobody's trying to discredit Itachi with what he can do with Shisui's eye but its still Shisui's eye and the power of it and the results gained from it should be attributed to Shisui himself and not Itachi because it's his jutsu and he is responsible for the power of it.



> What difference is there between Itachi casting the genjutsu through himself or through a proxy ?



Huge difference if youre trying to compare it to Kakashi using Kamui and its feats which Kakashi can legitimately claim as his own, unlike Itachi with Koto to which he can only input instructions to it and without which he would be lost.



> The ability to improve upon its usage is irrelevant to our discussion but yeah lets talk about that too.
> 
> Apparently Itachi used Koto once(on himself) and see what that accomplished ? It subdued a Genjtusu Specialist with MS
> Imagine who he'd subdue with further practice ? Rikodou Sennin ?



Cool, except again its power and feats should be credited to Shisui because he's responsible for how strong it is and what it can do. All Itachi can do is input code in it and his use of it has absolutely no impact on how powerful it is. 

You know who *is* responsible for how powerful his version of Kamui and how good he is with it? Kakashi because he is capable of using it on his own. 

Its silly to compare it to itachi and koto.



> And compare that to Kakashi's first Kamui use



Kakashi got better with it. 

Shisui is credited for koto's power, Itachi affects nothing.



> There is absolutely no difference in between Itachi programming Koto and actually using it. Because both require Itachi to understand the jutsu and possess enough skill to use it.
> There is also no difference in between Itachi using Koto, a jutsu Shisui's MS possessed and Kakashi using Kamui, a jutsu Obito's MS possesses.



There's a world of difference. It basically being that kakashi can lay claim to Kamui being his because he has full control of it, how it works, how strong it is and what he can do with it while itachi is merely borrowing someone else's power while his fanclub mistakenly tries to attribute its feats and power to him.



> Come on, it still isn't too late. You can admit that I am right and the pain will stop



Nah bro. I'm ok.



> It is true that Koto awakened in Shisui's sharingan



And Shisui is responsible for its power and it belongs to him. That's really all that needs to be said.



> Just like Kamui awakened in Obito's sharingan.



Just read above and replace Shisui with Kakashi in this instance. That's how it's different.



> I'm not exaclty saying that Koto isn't Shisui's jutsu. What I am saying is,* it is anyone's jutsu who possess the eye and the aptitude to use it.*
> Just like every other MS jutsu.



No, you just want to give itachi credit for its power and feats, which is, you know, wrong.



> Itachi could not do it for a few reasons.
> First and foremost, the eye was in cooldown when he took it.
> Secondly, he chose to use it for another purpose.
> 
> He had the capability of using it. Only the circumstances didn't allow him to* freely* do so.



I'm not talking about its cool down time or anything like that. I'm talking about how itachi has no affect on the quality or power or results past inputting commands into it.

The jutsu and its feats belong to Shisui, Itachis just borrowing it.



> In that sense I agree. Realizing or detecting a genjutsu might require some sort of intelligence or experience though and no offense but 3 tails seems like an autistic kid in that regard.



But he's not a walking dumbass like Killer bee. 



> Fun question :
> 
> If Obito is capable of using genjutsu on a perfect jin and casually controlling them in the heat of the battle like you claim he can(which is the reason why you compare him to Itachi right ?), *then why didn't he do this Naruto or B during their extended encounter ? *



Because plot requires it to be a little more difficult than that.  Its not my job to fill in Kishis plot holes.



> I know you can't answer this, you don't have to. Don't sweat it.



I know I don't because the manga said he did it. I'm not the one who has a problem with it.



> Kisame assumed he did. He was being played though.



That doesn't mean he didn't do it, because the manga makes it clear that he did.



> That doesn't justify your actions and I haven't speculated as much as you did.



Sure. If it helps you sleep at night.



> I was comparing their first and second encounter. Kakashi believed his odds weren't good against Tsukiyomi even after awakening MS.[/quote



Why? Part 1 and beginning of part 2 kakashi are completely irrelevant to the current story.

This is what I mean when I say youre too hung up in the past when it comes to trying to compare Itachis feats to anyone else.



> This excuse has gotten old.



Then, you know, stop doing it.



> Kakashi had Ms back then and still chose to avoid eye contact.



Why does he have to try and tank it again when that's not even the goal? And what does this matter to current Kakashi? He's obviously gotten stronger now, please catch up to the manga.



> And that is relevant how ?
> We aren't debating who can improve the most. Strawman argument detected and avoided.



Youre the one trying to claim they're the same, I'm just telling you they're not.



> Irrelevant. We are talking about genjutsu resistance only here. Kyuubi being stronger than Kakashi doesn't mean he is better suited to counter genjutsu.



Considering that it takes the fucking mangekyo sharingan to subdue him and only two of the strongest characters in the manga have been able to do it would suggest that his genjutsu defense is pretty high.



> What about Obito ?
> "Because he is Obito."



So show me the scans of itachi or anyone else pulling that off in this manga and then come at me with that smart ass shit.



> How did you arrive to that conclusion ?
> I just said that Obito couldn't do shit to Kakashi with genjutsu but he was able to control Kyuubi. So Kakashi is more resistant to sharingan genjutsu than Kyuubi is. This is an established fact.



So tell me something; what law is there that exists that says Kakashi is not allowed to be good at genjutsu? Where is it established that kakashi with his ms and top tier intelligence can't be better than itachi especially now that itachi is dead and gone? Please show me where that is stated in the manga, thanks.



> Obito is assumed to have used an unknown genjutsu on a perfect jin under unknown circumstances, subjugated him for an unknown period of time.



No, it is known that obito used his sharingan to subdue him for years because that's what's in the manga.

This is you speculating, by the way, not me.



> Itachi uses regular 3 tomoe sharingan genjutsu on a perfect jin in mid combat and the genjutsu is recognized immediately by the bijuu and gets dispelled.



And yet his best feats with MS either don't belong to him (koto) or need extreme prep and circumstance to pull off (izanami). 

For all we know obito just needed basic sharingan genjutsu to accomplish better.



> I don't think two instances are comparable in anyway.



Yet you think the usage of koto and kamui are.



> Like I already mentioned, if Obito was capable of such a feat, he'd use it on Naruto or B or other people he faced so far.



Oh well, it still happened.



> When ?



When he casually broke obitos genjutsu. The same obito who can control perfect jins.



> Itachi OHKO'd Kakashi whom Obito could not.
> Itachi is better.



Cool. And when he does it to current kakashi, let me know. Otherwise stop citing irrelevant feats.



> Funny thing is, these encounters are very comparable, unlike the counters with the perfect jins.



I'm sure its very convenient for you to think so.


----------



## Vice (Mar 11, 2014)

> Lets compare the hype and display Itachi got for genjutsu and the hype and display Kakashi got for it. Hell, lets pit Itachi against anyone and see what is fanmade or not



Sure itachi has his hype and is very good at genjutsu but like I said, the notion that he is unsurpassable is a fanboy one and not backed up by anything in canon.



> No they don't.
> Controlling Kyuubi is easier than oneshotting Kakashi, as the manga proves that Kakashi can deal with sharingan genjutsu better than Kyuubi.



I'm not even going to bother arguing for madara since I don't have to but obito controlling a perfect jin is easily more impressive than anything itachi has ever shown, even taking into account your misguided opinion of the kyuubi here.



> Shisui was stated to be the strongest genjutsu user @ the time he was alive.  Nowhere it was stated that he was better than Itachi. It is open to interpretation and even if that is the case, then Itachi is the 2nd most hyped genjutsu user so what ?



No it was stated that he was the best uchiha genjutsu user ever and koto shows what he was capable of.

And it also shows that itachis genjutsu strength isn't infallible like you fanboys try to claim.



> No it doesn't,* you *think it makes him comparable.
> Being comparable doesn't mean just as good btw.



Your belief that sasuke with the ems couldn't possibly be comparible to itachi in genjutsu is a perfect example of the fanboy stubbornness ive been citing.



> Being a genjutsu master doesn't mean he can't be genjutsu'd. Kurenai also placed him under a genjutsu.



It also means that its not impossible for a genjutsu master to be surpassed, especially if the plot necessitates it.



> Also it is purely speculative that he was incapable of escaping on his own.



No...



> He simply opted for the best and the fastest option that *secured both himself and his brother.*



...this is speculation, because him needing sasukes help is what happened in the manga and all the shit above is just a bunch of excuses to try and explain it away.



> Purely speculative.



Frog song has been confirmed due to the similar nature of phantom snake chains and manga canon.

I admit clam genjutsu is questionable, but then again you also agreed that a genjutsu master can still be genjutsu'd, so there you go.



> No he isn't. He is not even in the radar.



Sure he is. Catch up to the manga, this isn't 2011 anymore.



> Feats, portrayal and hype place Itachi above everyone in Genjutsu. There is nothing fan made about it.



No Ive specifically cited examples where he was beaten by feats, beaten by hype or outright beaten in genjutsu in canon so yes, it *is* a fanmade one.



> It actually does, as the manga stated.



The manga stated an ms user could do it not that all can do it.



> Hell maybe you need some skill to do be able to do it, but as far as we know there hasn't been a talentless MS user so far.



Of course you do.



> And Itachi being the best genjutsu user and all, should have absolutely no problem doing it.



But again he's not the best genjutsu user and your assumption that he can with no manga proof to back it up is more of that speculation shit you accuse everyone else of doing.


----------



## NarutoFan122134 (Mar 11, 2014)

Madara
Hashirama
Naruto
Rikudou
Sasuke
Obito
Kabuto
Nagato? (not sure about this)

Goes for both scenarios.


----------



## StickaStick (Mar 13, 2014)

Maito Dai


----------



## boohead (Mar 13, 2014)

Stale-mate with 7G gai.

Can't possibly beat 8G gai.


----------



## Rob (Mar 13, 2014)

What...  

What have I done?  

Can someone give me a summary of the last 10 pages


----------



## Alex Payne (Mar 13, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> What...
> 
> What have I done?
> 
> Can someone give me a summary of the last 10 pages


----------



## Sok (Mar 13, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> What...
> 
> What have I done?
> 
> Can someone give me a summary of the last 10 pages




Some fanboys riding itachi dick like usual


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 13, 2014)

Its obvious. He's around Jiraiya's level; now war Kakashi could give Itachi a fight and stands a good chance at winning. Without Yata's mirror, Itachi loses to Gai 100% of the time; he stands a chance at beating Gai with the mirror. (This doesn't include Gai using all 8 gates.)

Edo Tensei puts Itachi closer to living base Minato's level, but not quite.

Basically unlike the ultra powerhouses introduced in part 2... there are quite a number of people who can beat Itachi.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 13, 2014)

Minato used SM in some of his battles, but no much. Also, I wonder why didn't he use Pa & Ma
like Jiraiya, is not that their hole purpose?


----------



## Trojan (Mar 13, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Basically unlike the ultra powerhouses introduced in part 2... there are quite a number of people who can beat Itachi.



some people drew a photo for itachi in their mind that can never be any less that how they imagined him to be no matter how the story  progress or what feats do the others show. 
IMO itachi at this point hardly make it to top 20-30.

madara, obito, Minato, Naruto, hashirama, tobirama, hiruzen, jiraiya, nagato, pain, kabuto, oro, sasuke, A, B, 3rd Raikage, mu, onoki, gaara, kakashi, gui, tsunade, sakura (with katsuyu) hogorama, his mother, and 2 sons...etc 

They make it so hard for itachi at this point, but he was never meant to by top-dog to begin with. U_U

itachi's fans will flame me because of this, but they must return to reality.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 13, 2014)

Vice said:


> Look, nobody's trying to discredit Itachi with what he can do with Shisui's eye but its still Shisui's eye and the power of it and the results gained from it should be attributed to Shisui himself and not Itachi because it's his jutsu and he is responsible for the power of it.



Does that mean Danzou's power should be attributed to Shisui and Uchiha?
Naruto's power should be attributed to Kurama?
Kakashi's power should be attributed to Obito or Uchiha (since it's "borrowed")?
Kabuto's/Orochimaru's power should be attributed to the zombies of Edo Tensei?

No, the power belongs to its wielder. 

Shisui entrusted Kotoamatsukami to Itachi, and he's shown the skill to change its command and implant the eye into a crow; it's one of his techniques, whether you believe that's the case or not.


----------



## Vice (Mar 13, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Does that mean Danzou's power should be attributed to Shisui and Uchiha?



Nope. Danzo is directly responsible for maintaining its growth, power and efficiency, Itachi can only input commands.



> Naruto's power should be attributed to Kurama?



Nope. Naruto is directly responsible for maintaining its growth, power and efficiency, Itachi can only input commands. 



> Kakashi's power should be attributed to Obito or Uchiha (since it's "borrowed")?



Nope. Kakashi is directly responsible for maintaining its growth, power and efficiency, Itachi can only input commands.



> Kabuto's/Orochimaru's power should be attributed to the zombies of Edo Tensei?



Nope. Kabuto and Orochimaru are directly responsible for maintaining its growth, power and efficiency, Itachi can only input commands.



> No, the power belongs to its wielder.



Nope. All of the above you cited are responsible for the quality and strength when it comes to their jutsus with the exception of Itachi who cannot affect or improve upon Koto's power, efficiency or results past superficial manipulation.

You guys need to stop pretending it's the same thing. 



> Shisui entrusted Kotoamatsukami to Itachi, and he's shown the skill to change its command and implant the eye into a crow; it's one of his techniques, whether you believe that's the case or not.



It's still Shisui's eye and it's still Shisui's genjutsu and Shisui is still directly responsible for its power and results. Itachi only gets credit for inputting the commands, nothing more.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 13, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Does that mean Danzou's power should be attributed to Shisui and Uchiha?
> Naruto's power should be attributed to Kurama?
> Kakashi's power should be attributed to Obito or Uchiha (since it's "borrowed")?
> Kabuto's/Orochimaru's power should be attributed to the zombies of Edo Tensei?
> ...



So in that case koto belong to Naruto bcause itachi gave it to him. Thus, it's Naruto's jutsu, not itachi's.


----------



## Jagger (Mar 13, 2014)

Sok said:


> Some fanboys riding itachi dick like usual


Honestly, I'd say the same thing.

However, in this thread, there's a lot of Itachi underestimation. Not only in this thread, but this section as well when you consider people are actually willing to debate for Jiraiya in a fight against both Itach and Kisame at the same time and Kushina being suddenly capable of defeating Itachi.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 13, 2014)

Vice said:


> Nope. Danzo is directly responsible for maintaining its growth, power and efficiency, Itachi can only input commands.



That's the entire point of Kotoamatsukami: "inputting" commands that give off false realities. 
Danzou does the same thing as Itachi; the only difference is longevity and usage, actually. 

If you ask me, Itachi's method is more creative and useful. 



> Nope. Naruto is directly responsible for maintaining its growth, power and efficiency, Itachi can only input commands.



Naruto is directly responsible for taming Kurama and using its power, yes.

In a similar fashion, Itachi is able to change the command of Kotoamatsukami - akin to Danzou - and the only difference is longevity and usage, like I'd stated previously. 



> Nope. Kakashi is directly responsible for maintaining its growth, power and efficiency, Itachi can only input commands.



Kamui is just... as simple as point and shoot.
Similarly, Kotoamatsukami revolves around the command and its activation. 

In terms of improvement, the only aspects that have changed for Kakashi... are accuracy and speed; he's running on plot chakra or Kurama batteries. 

However, it still doesn't change the fact that Kamui belongs to him.



> Nope. Kabuto and Orochimaru are directly responsible for maintaining its growth, power and efficiency, Itachi can only input commands.



In your case, that means Kabuto and Orochimaru are inputting commands like Itachi... considering that's essentially how Edo Tensei works.



> Nope. All of the above you cited are responsible for the quality and strength when it comes to their jutsus with the exception of Itachi who cannot affect or improve upon Koto's power, efficiency or results past superficial manipulation.
> 
> You guys need to stop pretending it's the same thing.



Everyone I've cited is responsible for the quality and strength when it comes to their techniques, including Kotoamatsukami users.



> It's still Shisui's eye and it's still Shisui's genjutsu and Shisui is still directly responsible for its power and results. Itachi only gets credit for inputting the commands, nothing more.



So Danzou only gets credit for inputting commands, Vice?
I mean, they're both using the power one way or another... just different methods. 

Regarding that method, it's referring to "crow vs. eye socket" and Senju DNA (augmentation process).



New Folder said:


> So in that case koto belong to Naruto bcause itachi gave it to him. Thus, it's Naruto's jutsu, not itachi's.



If Naruto was able to alter its command and use the technique... you would be correct, Elia.


----------



## Fiiction (Mar 14, 2014)

Nagato shouldn't be on anybody's list, he stomps Tf out of Itachi tsukuyomi is itachi's only resort, unless Nagato is mobile.


----------



## Jagger (Mar 14, 2014)

^

Did you mean that "Nagato should be on anybody's list?" since people are listing the characters that Itachi shouldn't be capable of beating.

I don't agree, though. Just pointing out that.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Mar 14, 2014)

he can't beat obito, thats for damn sure.


----------



## Dat Uchiha Itachi (Mar 14, 2014)

Itachi solos. Deal with it


----------



## IchLiebe (Mar 14, 2014)

Thread is pointless. Itachi is weak and dozens of people beat him. Ask who he can beat, the list won't be long then.


----------



## Ersa (Mar 14, 2014)

Thread is pointless. Itachi is strong and beats dozens of people. Ask who he can't beat, the list won't be long then.


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## IchLiebe (Mar 14, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Thread is pointless. Itachi is strong and beats dozens of people. Ask who he can't beat, the list won't be long then.



LOL. Itachi couldn't even beat Hebi Sasuke. What a weak bitch .


----------



## Ersa (Mar 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> LOL. Itachi couldn't even beat Hebi Sasuke. What a weak bitch .


LOL. Kakashi couldn't even beat Kakuzu. What a weak bitch


----------



## IchLiebe (Mar 15, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> LOL. Kakashi couldn't even beat Kakuzu. What a weak bitch



Except Kakashi directly said he could've. Itachi never said he could beat Sasuke.


----------



## Rob (Mar 15, 2014)

The same Kakashi that fought during the Immortals arc? 

I don't see him beating Kakuzu 

If it weren't for the PnJ, Kakuzu wouldn't have ended all of them


----------



## fior fior (Mar 15, 2014)

Here's the full list:

*Spoiler*: _Warning, it's very long_ 




A
Abiru
Agari
Agari Kaisen
Ageha
Agira Ryūdōin
Ahiko
Ahō Bird
Akaboshi
Akahoshi
Akamaru
Akane
Akane's Father
Akari Tatsushiro
Akatsuchi
Akino
Akio
Amachi
Amai
Amaru
Amayo
Ame (student)
Ameyuri Ringo
Ami
ANBU Commander
Aniki
Anko Mitarashi
Ao
Aoba Yamashiro
Aoda
Aoi (game)
Aoi Rokushō
Arashi
Armadiko
Asuma Sarutobi
Asura Path (character)
Atsui
Ayame
Ayato
Azami
B
Baiu
Baji
Baki
Baku
Baku (ANBU)
Bakuto
Bando
Bandō
Banna
Bansai
Baru Uchiha
Bekkō
Benten
Bird-Masked ANBU Member
Bisuke
Biwako Sarutobi
Black Shadow
Boar-Masked ANBU Member
Boxing Kangaroos
Bull
Buna
Bunpuku
Bunzō
Butsuma Senju
C
C
Captain of the Ghost Ship
Cat-Masked ANBU Member
C cont.
Chamū
Chen
Chen (student)
Chibi
Chichiatsu
Chikara
Chiriku
Chishima
Chiyo
Chiyo (princess)
Choco
Chōhan
Chōji Akimichi
Chōji's Mother
Chōjūrō
Chōmei
Chōseki
Chōza Akimichi
Chūji
Chūkaku
Chūkichi
Chūshin
Claw Daimyō
Conch King
Condor
Curse Jutsu Master
Cursed Warrior
D
Daibutsu
Daichi
Daikoku Funeno
Daimaru
Dajimu
Dan Katō
Dango
Danzō Shimura
Darui
Deidara
Demonic Statue of the Outer Path
Dengaku
Denka
Disonasu
Dodai
Doki
Dokku
Don
Dosu Kinuta
Dotō Kazahana
Dread Lion
Dōshin
E
Earth Daimyō
Earth Prison Golem
Ebisu
Ebizō
Emi
Emina
Emiru
En
En no Gyōja
Ensui Nara
Enzo Tenro
Evil Minister of the Tea Daimyō
F
F
Fang Daimyō
Faz
Fire Daimyō
First Animal Path (character)
First Hoshikage
F cont.
First Kazekage
First Mizukage
First Raikage
First Tsuchikage
Former Leader of Nadeshiko Village
Fourth Kazekage
Frost Daimyō
Fubuki Kakuyoku
Fudō
Fuen
Fugai
Fugaku Uchiha
Fuguki Suikazan
Fukai
Fukai's Doctor
Fukasaku
Fuki
Fuki (Land of Sound)
Fuku
Fukusuke Hikyakuya
Funari
Furofuki
Futaba
Fū
Fū (ANBU)
Fūjin
Fūka
Fūta Kagetsu
G
Gaara
Gama
Gamabunta
Gamahiro
Gamaken
Gamakichi
Gamariki
Gamatatsu
Gameru
Gandō
Ganryū
Gantetsu
Gantetsu (Iwagakure)
Gari
Gataro
Gatsu
Gatō
Gekomatsu
Gen'yūmaru
Genie
Genma Shiranui
Genmai
Gennai
Gennō
Gennō's Son
Genshō Ryūdōin
Gensui Amagiri
Genzō
Gerotora
Giant Anteater
Giant Bee
Giant Centipede
Giant Clam
Giant Corpse Crab
Giant Crustacean
Giant Drill-Beaked Bird
Giant Marlin
Giant Multi-Headed Dog


----------



## IchLiebe (Mar 15, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> The same Kakashi that fought during the Immortals arc?
> 
> I don't see him beating Kakuzu
> 
> If it weren't for the PnJ, Kakuzu wouldn't have ended all of them



Kamui GG. Kakuzu isn't enough for Kakashi.


----------



## Rob (Mar 15, 2014)

IIRC, the Kakashi that fought Kakuzu still didn't have full mastery of it...


----------



## Turrin (Mar 15, 2014)

Jagger said:


> However, in this thread, there's a lot of Itachi underestimation. Not only in this thread, but this section as well


I'm sorry but Itachi has always been and will continue to be one of the most overrated characters in any sub-section of the forums.  But let's stick to the BD for a second, and look at some of the recent match up threads Itachi has been in:

"Healthy" Itachi vs EMS-Madara
Sick/Dying Itachi vs Kabutomaru
Edo Itachi vs Edo BM-Minato
Sick/Dying Itachi vs Sannin Modo-Minato

And I won't even get into the ridiculous Base-Itachi threads. Or how about, how in a a recent thread asking who the strongest Itachi can beat is, many people answered fricking Nagato & some even argued he could beat anyone - this is the character that is underrated according to you 

Essentially we have Itachi being pitted against some of the strongest characters in the entire-verse even with heavy restrictions, and many believing he still some how manages to pull out a win. This is in stark contrast to how the characters was actually portrayed in the Manga-Cannon. In the Manga-cannon the main characters that he constantly clashed with and act as his foil is Orochimaru. Ultimately Itachi demonstrated superiority over Orochimaru in their various encounters and his ability to unravel Orochimaru's various plots or Jutsu, but it was not something Itachi accomplished easily. He utilized Susano'o to counter Orochimaru's Yamata no Orochi Jutsu and Izanami was his goto counter against Edo Tensei, both of which are not techniques that Itachi utilizes lightly. Orochimaru and Orochimaru's techniques proved to be more than credible challenge for Itachi throughout the series, again Itachi prevailed, but not lightly. And that's it, he defeated nor combat equally any characters above the level of Orochimaru without the author giving him significant help and harp on the significance of help. Yet he is paired with characters far beyond Orochimaru's capabilities. You can't get any clearer of an example of a character being overrated, except for perhaps Kakashi & Deidara.

If you want to talk underrated characters, take a look at Kushina, the girl demonstrates the ability to beat the Kyuubi no Yoko when on her death-bed. Is said to possess some of the most potent chakra and demonstrated some of the most powerful abilities in the MC-Clan, taught Minato of all people everything he knows about Fuuinjutsu, was the Kyuubi's Jinchuuriki, and was stated to be so skillful in Ninjutsu that even the legendary-sannin were impressed with her abilities and she was became incredibly famous. In-fact people even will-fully ignore Naruto's statement about Kushina being stronger than him Post-KCM. Resulting in people not giving her any props for this stuff and coming to the ridiculous conclusion that there is absolutely no chance she could even beat Itachi, and that's not even the worse Kushina underrations i've heard of. In-fact pretty much any female character is underestimate heavily on these forums.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2014)

We can only give the obvious people Itachi is far beneath... if you want something more precise then only a specific thread would suffice.


----------



## Jagger (Mar 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm sorry but Itachi has always been and will continue to be one of the most overrated characters in any sub-section of the forums.  But let's stick to the BD for a second, and look at some of the recent match up threads Itachi has been in:
> 
> "Healthy" Itachi vs EMS-Madara
> Sick/Dying Itachi vs Kabutomaru
> ...


You've got a fair point here in some cases...However..the main problem here is:



> If you want to talk underrated characters, take a look at Kushina, the girl demonstrates the ability to beat the Kyuubi no Yoko when on her death-bed. Is said to possess some of the most potent chakra and demonstrated some of the most powerful abilities in the MC-Clan, taught Minato of all people everything he knows about Fuuinjutsu, was the Kyuubi's Jinchuuriki, and was stated to be so skillful in Ninjutsu that even the legendary-sannin were impressed with her abilities and she was became incredibly famous. In-fact people even will-fully ignore Naruto's statement about Kushina being stronger than him Post-KCM. Resulting in people not giving her any props for this stuff and coming to the ridiculous conclusion that there is absolutely no chance she could even beat Itachi, and that's not even the worse Kushina underrations i've heard of. In-fact pretty much any female character is underestimate heavily on these forums.


Your perception of power-scaling is terrible, no offense to you and your opinion, but you take quite the huge steps when it comes to completely assume the abilities of a character we haven't seen him fighting. 

She didn't beat the Kyuubi, she restrained him. That's a difference. Madara didn't beat the Kyuubi through raw strength. In fact, no character has been capable of doing that, not even Madara considering he just merely looked into its eye and controlled him like a puppet. 

She was famous because of her special chakra. That's the main reason she was kidnapped by Kumogakure shinobi, not because of her battle prowess, as far as I remember. She didn't control the Kyuubi's power, she just restrained it inside of her to keep it at bay. The only shinobi that is known to have befriended the Kyuubi is Hagoromo and Naruto, that's it and that's all.

Where are you getting this comment about Kushina being as strong or stronger than KM Naruto, by the way?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2014)

Jagger said:


> However, in this thread, there's a lot of Itachi underestimation. Not only in this thread, but this section as well when you consider people are actually willing to debate for Jiraiya in a fight against both Itach and Kisame at the same time and Kushina being suddenly capable of defeating Itachi.



There is not *a lot* of Itachi underestimation in this section, mang. 

Need I remind you of the notion Itachi soloing people canonically stronger than him such as Nagato, Kabuto, Madara, Sasuke and Naruto? Don't even get me started on how Itachi admitting inferiority to the guy he believed was EMS Madara!


----------



## Rain (Mar 15, 2014)

Itachi is the greatest shinobi to ever live.


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## Kai (Mar 15, 2014)

By portrayal, the author certainly pushes the belief that Itachi is among the, if not the greatest, of shinobi to ever live. 

His representation power-wise? He doesn't measure up quite as supremely, but then again that's never what Itachi's character was about


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## IchLiebe (Mar 15, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> IIRC, the Kakashi that fought Kakuzu still didn't have full mastery of it...



And that means what? Kakuza still can't do a damn thing about it.


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## Rob (Mar 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And that means what? Kakuza still can't do a damn thing about it.



Well... 

...


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## Ersa (Mar 15, 2014)

Sick Itachi is rated pretty fairly around here, some people underestimate how bad his sickness can fuck him up. The Edo Itachi underestimation is at ridiculous levels however, I really question the reading comprehension of some people when it comes to his power. Gaara beating him? Yeah is Iruka going to beat the Sandaime now too?


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## IchLiebe (Mar 15, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Sick Itachi is rated pretty fairly around here, some people underestimate how bad his sickness can fuck him up. The Edo Itachi underestimation is at ridiculous levels however, I really question the reading comprehension of some people when it comes to his power. Gaara beating him? Yeah is Iruka going to beat the Sandaime now too?



Gaara canonically beat ama and susanoo. He can see without his eyes so there goes tsukiyomi. He has sealing jutsu. He has a full house to Itachi's three of a kind.


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## Weapon (Mar 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Gaara canonically beat ama and susanoo. He can see without his eyes so there goes tsukiyomi. He has sealing jutsu. He has a full house to Itachi's three of a kind.



Checkmate.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Sick Itachi is rated pretty fairly around here, some people underestimate how bad his sickness can fuck him up.



Only the manga actually said he just moved a little slower than normal and he coughed blood.


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## Weapon (Mar 15, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Only the manga actually said he just moved a little slower than normal and he coughed blood.



Apparently that restricts his chakra usage and halves his entire stats.


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## Lawrence777 (Mar 15, 2014)

The way I interpreted it chakra is derived from both the physical and spiritual components of your being.

If your sick or terminally ill then the physical component of your chakra is therefore diminished.

Since both physical and spiritual have to be in balance(50/50), it also reduces your spiritual energy to maintain equilibrium with your lower physical energy. So it seems being unhealthy would indeed affect chakra level.


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2014)

Jagger said:


> You've got a fair point here in some cases...However..the main problem here is:
> Your perception of power-scaling is terrible, no offense to you and your opinion, but you take quite the huge steps when it comes to completely assume the abilities of a character we haven't seen him fighting.
> 
> She didn't beat the Kyuubi, she restrained him.


She could have beaten Kyuubi by re-sealing it inside herself, after restraining him.



> Madara didn't beat the Kyuubi through raw strength. In fact, no character has been capable of doing that, not even Madara considering he just merely looked into its eye and controlled him like a puppet.


Kushina did beat the Kyuubi through raw strength. Her chakra-chains were powerful enough to restrain the Kyuubi's strength. 

Besides that let me point something else out. How strong has Kishimoto made the characters that have shown the ability to control Kurama? Have they all been weak sauce or were all of them ridiculously powerful?



> She was famous because of her special chakra. That's the main reason she was kidnapped by Kumogakure shinobi, not because of her battle prowess, as far as I remember.


That's why she was famous when she was a child. When she grew up the DB states her Ninjutsu skill made her famous and even the Sannin acknowledge her skills.



> She didn't control the Kyuubi's power, she just restrained it inside of her to keep it at bay. The only shinobi that is known to have befriended the Kyuubi is Hagoromo and Naruto, that's it and that's all.


Befriending the Kyuubi is not the same thing as being able to use it's power. All Jinchuuriki get some power from the Bijuu and even Part I Naruto/Early Part II Naruto could use up KN3, without losing control, someone like Kushina with her magic chakra should be able to do at least that much, if not more. Heck Kushina could drag out massive amounts of Kyuubi-Chakra while not technically being a perfect Jinchuuriki and not invalidating any prior statements, so I wouldn't be so sure, that Kushina couldn't utilize a good deal of Kurama's powers. 



> Where are you getting this comment about Kushina being as strong or stronger than KM Naruto, by the way?


*here*
*here*


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2014)

Weapon said:


> Apparently that restricts his chakra usage and halves his entire stats.



Apparently it doesn't because it was only said to make him slightly slower and made him cough blood. Nothing more and nothing less.


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## Jagger (Mar 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> She could have beaten Kyuubi by re-sealing it inside herself, after restraining him.


Then, she sealed it inside of her considering she can't beat it with raw strength. It's basically the same situation Hashirama faced after the fight with the Kyuubi where his wife needed to seal the beast inside of her to protect the village.



> Kushina did beat the Kyuubi through raw strength. Her chakra-chains were powerful enough to restrain the Kyuubi's strength.
> 
> Besides that let me point something else out. How strong has Kishimoto made the characters that have shown the ability to control Kurama? Have they all been weak sauce or were all of them ridiculously powerful?


And then, got impaled. Your entire point was already adressed above by saying she didn't beat it with raw strength, but merely restrained him temporaly. There was something else she needed to do and that was to seal it inside of her. She couldn't kill it and she knew it. It's basically near impossible to kill a Bijuu as powerful as Kurama like that. 

I don't believe Madara is capable of killing Kurama without genjutsu, though. Sure, he might stand for a big while, but he will be eventually worn out while Kurama can fight for entire days as Naruto himself is doing that with just half of the beast.



> That's why she was famous when she was a child. When she grew up the DB states her Ninjutsu skill made her famous and even the Sannin acknowledge her skills.


Empty statements, man. Sure, she was probably poweful during her days and hell, it could have been awesome, but let's not just into conclusions.

It's basically the same argument with users that tried to defend Hiruzen's empty hype about him being the "God of Shinobi". Also, Orochimaru also recognized Itachi's talent and even wanted his body, so it's not like Kushina is alone in such department.



> Befriending the Kyuubi is not the same thing as being able to use it's power. All Jinchuuriki get some power from the Bijuu and even Part I Naruto/Early Part II Naruto could use up KN3, without losing control, someone like Kushina with her magic chakra should be able to do at least that much, if not more. Heck Kushina could drag out massive amounts of Kyuubi-Chakra while not technically being a perfect Jinchuuriki and not invalidating any prior statements, so I wouldn't be so sure, that Kushina couldn't utilize a good deal of Kurama's powers.


I'm aware of that. However, befriending the Kyuubi or stealing away its power and using them independently from the beast means you're capable of using the power in a much higher level than letting the chakra take slowly your body.

The point is that we don't know, Turrin. She, she could take massive amounts of the Kyuubi's chakra, but is that enough to beat Itachi? How much is she drawing out? At what point does she completely loses control and the Kyuubi takes over her body?



> *here*
> *here*


Wait, wut.


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## Turrin (Mar 17, 2014)

@Jagger

I don't see how restraining the Kyuubi completely and than forcibly sealing it is not beating it with raw-strength. As for killing the Kyuubi, no one can accomplish that as apparently it just re-spawns after a certain period of time. So even Rikudo, couldn't kill the Kyuubi. So it's pointless to penalize Kushina for that. Kushina displaying that her chains are powerful enough to restrain 100% Kurama and she could put a barrier around Kuram strong enough retain his attacks, while on her death bed, demonstrates a level of might that we haven't seen from most shinobi but a very select few. Like-wise you say the DB stuff is empty hype, but it's not, because she taught the 4th-Hokage of all people Fuuinjutsu, so that more than warrants her hype as being famous world-wide for Ninjutsu. As for her utilizing Kurama's chakra we know for a fact that she got some of Kurama's chakra, to what extent, your right we don't know, but anything else is gravy ontop of the half-dead Kushina who could already defeat [not kill] Kurama.

And you still haven't answered my question. How has the author portrayed other characters who have shown the ability to beat Kurama; are they all much weaker than Itachi? Or can they all pretty much decisively defeat Itachi? 

Or how about this. How does Itachi even get through a Barrier that Kushina & Minato felt was powerful enough to hold back 100%-Kurama's attacks? How does Itachi avoid being completely restrained [Susano'o included] by chains that were able to hold down 100% Kurama? You can talk to me about Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi winning all day long, but Itachi has to actually find his way out of [or into] that barrier first, while not being pinned down by the Kurama binding chains Kushina can produce. How does Itachi do that?

And if the answer is just lol Bushin-Fient or Itachi evades everything [when 50% Kurama who is faster than Sennin Modo Naruto could not], than I'm not going to even bother responding.


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## Mercurial (Mar 17, 2014)

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