# Challenger Arena - Mad Scientist (WA Kakashi) vs trocollo (Hokage Minato)



## Mawt (Aug 5, 2020)

*Challenger Arena Battle (Ninth Battle)
*
*@Mad Scientist vs @trocollo *
​*Match: *WA Kakashi vs Hokage Minato
*Location:* Naruto & Bee vs Nagato & Itachi
*Knowledge:* None
*Distance:* 15m
*Restrictions:* None

*Word Count:* 1000 words per post
*Number of posts:* 2

The first post will be your introduction on why your character wins. The rest of your posts are your rebuttals.



*This thread is for Mad Scientist, trocollo, and the judges only*

*Other posters can observe or show encouragements via Like, Dislike etc. If you want your own match, go challenge someone here:*

​*Judges for the match:*

@Ayala
@Soul
@Ludi

*Spoiler*: _Judging Criteria - template/inspiration_ 





Analysis (The level of thinking and analysis)
Creativity (The creativity)
Structure (The structure/flow of argument/Visually appealing)
Factual (Are they using logical/factual contents from the manga?)
Persuasiveness (How persuasive were they? Did they convince you?)
On the basis of S, A, B, C (+/-)

For example:
Analysis - S+
(Followed by reason - How far did they go to analyse a situation? The level of thinking and detail?)

Creativity - A-
(Followed by reason - New methods of winning that you didn't previously thought of? Combinations that you didn't know existed?)

Structure - B+
(Followed by reason)

Factual - C-
(Followed by reason - Point out things you see seriously wrong. Point out on things you didn't previously know. )

Persuasiveness - S+
(Followed by reason - Did you change your mind on the match up? Did you gain a new perspective?)

Reactions: Like 4


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## trocollo (Aug 6, 2020)

*Portrayal:*

Both are regarded as genius[*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*], but Minato will also get the title of "Saviour of the world / Child of profecy" by Jiraiya[*Link Removed*].

Both are known all around the world, Kakashi thanks to his mastery of the sharingan and to his father's legacy[*Link Removed*]; Minato beacause his participation in the war was astonishing []("during the 3rd Great Ninja War, he led inferior Konoha camps to victory for times too numerous to mention."), the enemy nations even had to order their ninja to run away from him[*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*]

Minato is the youngest Hokage Konoha ever had, being chosen by Hiruzen over the Sannin, Fugaku and the White Fang to succed him; his life will end shortly after saving the leaf from the treat of Obito and Kurama initiating the manga with his honors[*Link Removed*]; Kakashi traded his life with info on deva path and the destruction of one path of Pain and another time he'll try trading it with a restricted Obito but it'll end up being the latter's plan[*Link Removed*].


*Mechanics of the characters:*

Kakashi is a master of ninjutsu, he showed a modest amount of them but he's hyped to have a lot more[*Link Removed*], his strong moves are attacks with clones, raikiri, and kamui, he can also use the sharingan to study the opponent jutsu and to cast genjutsu, then he also makes use of summons along with his other elemental jutsu to refine his attack pattern along with his tactics.

Minato is a sensor and a sage, his fight style is based on FTG variants accompanied by the rasengan, his fight style boasts an unparralled speed[*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*] such that he's "Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed, the honour of that valour fascinates even the elites of other villages."[], he also has summons and is a master of sealing jutsu. In this particular match-up I don't think I'll be IC of him using Gamabunta or SM anytime near the start.

Minato and Kakashi fight style revolves around precise attacks, both utilize speed and feints to land their attacks, Minato relies more on the first while Kakashi more on the seconds; they're both really dangerous, as basically, both of them aren't tanks, neither they plan to win a fight by dominating the opponent with continuos damage from large AoE, but by inflicting fatal damage in a fast and precise window of time, surprising their enemyes.


*Win conditions for Kakashi:*

Kamui is a jutsu that lets Kakashi cast a S/T barrier on wherever Kakashi focus his sight and the target will be telported into another dimension, while this jutsu is really powerful, it's not fast enough to tag Minato, as its speed is paragonable to Obito's own warping[*Link Removed*], who's slower than Obito's sucking[*Link Removed*], who Minato already outspeeded with no knowledge on it[*Link Removed*].
Kakashi isn't out of options tho, as again, he has other jutsu, as long as those alone or some combination of those jutsu with Kamui gives him a win condition he's good.

So, what Kakashi can do is feint Minato with a raiton clone to stun him, and use that time to deal the winning blow with Kamui or Raikiri; Kakashi will have to use his other jutsu to help him in pulling this off as he can use his water and/or his earth justu as LoS blockers to create the raiton shadow clone.

The problem with the above is that Minato is a sensor, he may not enter sensory mode at the start (even tho him reacting to Obito like this[*Link Removed*] suggets it's IC), but after seeing the sharingan or losing sight of his enemy he has all the reasons to enter it, while in that mode he'll recognize that there are two chakra signatures, the clone now won't be able to feint him.
But there's is also another problem, even if we restict sensory out of Minato the effect of the raiton clone is just that of causing paralisys[] as a flow of raiton logically does, but Minato convenientely has FTG, that allows him to transport his body away without the need for any physical movement, so the feint would fail either way.

Other tactics such as Kakashi using large AoE to attack the kunai or attacking Minato with his other jutsu won't work as in the first case he won't able to destroy the kunai but only to displace them, with this he gets to have some stall time by losing some chakra, at best, since Minato has no obligation to just stay still and watch.
In the second case Kakashi can't tag Minato with any of his other jutsu, as Minato always has the option to telport or shunshin away, and his reactions allow him to do that as Kakashi can't recreate a faster istance than the ones Minato was in (evaded A's fastest punch and Obito's sucking)


*Win conditions for Minato:*

Right form the start a normal "FTG lvl 2"-like jutsu gets the win to Minato, as Kakashi, at the first kunai lauch towards himself, with no knowledge, won't know what'll hit him, this cause he doesn't have sensory and his sharingan can't predict the FTG attack.

If events unfold in a different way and the battle continues so that Kakashi deduces knowledge on FTG, Minato still has the absolute advantage in speed; as long as he has his kunai, he can evade and attack even at the same time[*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*]; now, even A4 needed Bee's help to dodge Minato's counterattack[*Link Removed*], even tho he had knowledge on Minato's jutsu (as they knew the teleportation works with the marks on the kunai and that he can place them[*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*]), Kakashi being slower than A means that he wouldn't react any better to it.


*So:*
Minato's win condition lets him dominate the match from the start while Kakashi's doesn't have one that is effective on Minato, but, even if he had it, it'll need to be a faster one than what Minato has, since, if not, Minato's one would be much likely to happen before Kakashi's one.



Word count: 1000

*Spoiler*: _References (if the links are killed or something Idk):_ 



[1] Ch 367 p 11
[2] Ch 84 p 16
[3] Ch 541 p 9
[4] Ch 468 p 3
[5] DB 4 p 173
[6] Ch 240 p 11
[7] Ch 542 p 12
[8] Ch 1 p 6
[9] Ch 675 p 5
[10] Ch 12 p 6
[11] Ch 501 p 13
[12] Ch 502 p 9
[13] Ch 631 p 4
[14] Ch 666 p 15
[15] Ch 510 p 2
[16] Ch 502 p 8
[17] DB 4 p 304
[18] Ch 502 p 15
[19] Ch 502 p 16
[20] Ch 542 p 15
[21] Ch 543 p 1
[22] Ch 543 p 2
[23] Ch 543 p 3

Reactions: Like 15


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 10, 2020)

​
*Speed*​
*Minato & Ay*

Roughly _15 years_   Raikage, a young Ay would _almost_ blitz Minato.


​

A4’s  and build starkly improve over a decade.


*Spoiler*: __ 









​



​

Minato would have been blitzed if Ay used this V2. It was strongly implied that even young Ay could have potentially blitzed Minato if he had appeared at one of the kunai spots within Ay’s vision. This tactic’s effectiveness was exemplified _twice_ by a young Bee physically reacting to Minato teleporting behind Ay and then Bee.


*Spoiler*: __ 





​



​

 to . In fact,  – Kakashi is far more precise and experienced.  – Kakashi is stealthier, faster, and possesses the self-warp which can only be discerned at around  (who could hardly get close to Obito before Kakashi) or .


*Spoiler*: __ 





​





*Kakashi & KCM Naruto*

The notion of 3T users keeping up with or outspeeding the likes of RCM Ay and KCM Naruto shouldn’t be news; it was , then further demonstrated by , , , WA Obito and WA Kakashi (read below), all of whom were _Mangekyō Sharingan_ users ().

    ,          .

It should then come as no surprise when he surpasses his glory . While , , , then  for . For another bleak comparison,  more  . A much less experienced Bee was already reacting to Minato’s Hiraishin movements, while an older Bee was  to -enhanced ,  and , all of whom no doubt had the kinds of speed faster than what Minato could (or would struggle to) have reacted to…


Moreover, while WA Obito was moving at speeds >= KCM Naruto…


​

…WA      >= WA Obito, and was perfectly capable of tracking  and KCM2 Naruto.…


​
​

*Kamui!*​

Frankly, Kamui is something Minato cannot react to. If , then the odds of Minato successfully reacting to Kamui are close to none.


, while both were without a doubt moving at a speed faster than young Ay. .


 which was undoubtedly moving at high speed through the air. It was so fast Obito mistook it for being just a shadow clone that popped, .


JJ Rinnegan Madara kicked a senjutsu-powered Rasengan straight at an unsuspecting Kakashi, yet .


. After  who  (, )

*Spoiler*: __ 





​





At best, Kakashi will only require a couple of small bullets, which conserves a lot of stamina. With his exceptional perception, reflexes, timing and warp speed, and the fact Minato has _zero knowledge_ on him, the chance of Minato _not_ dying to Kamui or being injured as a result of it – if or when Kakashi uses it – is _extremely_ low.


*Combat Points*​

*1.*    Kakashi’s .


*2.*    . He can use the  (leading to flushing out Minato’s abilities quickly) and/or  at him,  to .


*3.*    He quickly outsmarts Minato by letting him use Hiraishin against a Lightning Clone, swiftly deducing Hiraishin’s mechanics (if he hasn’t already) and forming a brilliant counterplan _while_ Minato is getting reacted to or .


*4.*    FCD is very unlikely to be used until late, and would be useless due to clone tactics, and because it can be reacted to through hand sign precognition, followed by self-warp or Mole Jutsu. Needless to say,  and blitzed with a , V2-jinchuriki-slicing Raiden.


*5.*    Kakashi  among the trees and/or  it .


*6.*    He  and , .


*7.*    He can summon a shadow clone(s) to help him (e.g. to snipe), especially considering his immense stamina displayed throughout the WA. Minato can't even outlast WA Kakashi.


*8.*    Unlike teen Obito who had virtually only MS to rely on, Kakashi is a practiced tactician and versatile shinobi who won’t hesitate to use   if the situation calls for it.


*9.*    It doesn’t matter where Minato is.  or warp objects from  and later warped a JJ Madara-kicked Rasengan at point-blank.


*10.* He’s too bloody , , , , , , , , ,  and .




*Word Count:* 1000​

Reactions: Like 7


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## Ludi (Aug 10, 2020)

There it is!

Great opening bois


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## trocollo (Aug 11, 2020)

That's actually so freaking cool that we both made the OP exactly of 1000 words, gives off a sense of satisfaction 



Mad Scientist said:


> *Speed*​*Minato & Ay*
> 
> Roughly _15 years_   Raikage, a young Ay would _almost_ blitz Minato.
> 
> ...


It's not an "almost", Minato directly reacted to the punch and outspeedeed A by launcing a kunai behind him before teleporting away[*Link Removed*].

A's max speed didn't improve, he was at his max one even aganist Minato, his hairs still float but the headband keeps the ones above down, he himself tells to Naruto he used the same punch he used on Minato[*Link Removed*].

A's tactics wasn't going to work, it's an enraged trought[*Link Removed*] and Minato already dodged his fastest punch, Bee's approach shows that prediction helps but in A case needs to first get to him.

The battle with Tobi was decided in an istant not by an edge, the point was attacking Obito while Obito was attacking him, ence the istant, at least if you want to call it edge call it edge in speed, Minato wasn't beaten up like Hashirama after the latter fought Madara.

Tobi wouldn't have won if he used touch warp the moment he touched Minato, cause Minato didn't know of that ability and he reacted to it on the spot.

Kakashi isn't stealthier than Obito, beacause of phasing.
Same thing for faster, Obito just closes in with phasing and if he touches you you're done.

The panel you posted only shows Sasuke noticing it while running to kill Obito, there's nothing that suggest that that was the limit (ex. Juubito); the "higher" is a panting Naruto getting blindsided, doesn't suggest reactions speed.




Mad Scientist said:


> *Kakashi & KCM Naruto*
> 
> The notion of 3T users keeping up with or outspeeding the likes of RCM Ay and KCM Naruto shouldn’t be news; it was , then further demonstrated by , , , WA Obito and WA Kakashi (read below), all of whom were _Mangekyō Sharingan_ users ().
> 
> ...


MS Sasuke didn't outspeed V1 Bee, he used the sharingan to anticipate his moves, he says it's the same as when he fought Naruto[*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*] and that Bee moved in a linear way[*Link Removed*], if Bee attacked like before he wouldn't be able to react[*Link Removed*].
Same as above for FKS Sasuke, and that wasn't max power RCM who is what KCM Naruto speed surpassed.
Since the comparison is also mixed with RCM this doesn't work, as Itachi nerver keeped up with Naruto's shunshin.

Kakashi is fast, but point is being on max RCM level.

This KCM Naruto[*Link Removed*] isn't moving at this speed[*Link Removed*] constantly, but only when he uses shunshin[*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*], let alone him using it with the KCM running out[*Link Removed*].

Obito isn't faster than KCM Naruto's shunshin (who is what I think you want to imply since the end comparison has to be with Minato).

From those scans one could say that Kakashi's speed is = to kamuiless Obito.




Mad Scientist said:


> *Kamui!*​
> Frankly, Kamui is something Minato cannot react to. If , then the odds of Minato successfully reacting to Kamui are close to none.
> 
> 
> ...


A wasn't even phased by it.

Naruto didn't jump at RCM speeds, he just didn't use shunshin.
Tobi thought Naruto undid the rasengan, he says so in that scan.

He confirmed that his kamui speed is equal to Obito's own kamui speed, as he teleported Naruto while Obito telported the rod.
"he beat me to it..." is cause Obito thought that Kakashi just wanted to telport the rasengan.

Agree that with kamui you get to warp incoming attacks, but in that same istance we have Minato trowing a kunai, entering SM and attacking Madara after Kakashi uses kamui on Obito.

None of them should've known what Kakashi telported, since the warping was interruped by the summoning, ence Kakashi just knowing that he failed since what he can know is that he still needed to enlarge the barrier more to wrap the whole statue.

Madara praising kamui doesn't mean that he's slower than it.
Your scan doesn't suggest that "Minato needed KCM to even keep up with Tobirama", you just posted Minato praising Tobirama for the latter getting to the work immediately without wasting time, the question of who's faster is already resolved here[*Link Removed*], and even confirmed[*Link Removed*].




Mad Scientist said:


> *Combat Points*​
> *1.* Kakashi’s .
> 
> 
> ...


1. Kakashi figthing in cqc with kamuiles Obito doesn't mean he can keep up with kamui Obito with kamui Obito.

2. How water clones flush out Minato's abilityes?
Great waterfall jutsu can't tag Minato, it's too slow, and FTG barrier counters it.

3. What are the tactics?

4. Gamabunta is big like any regular bijuu, so gedo arm is smaller.

5. Seems to depend on the enemy, aganist Zabuza he needed his blood splattered over him first.

6. That's the damage of the explosion, his barrier at that time was too small, he used it to create an hole for the explosion to go trough[*Link Removed*], but this is WA Kakashi so I agree.

7. MS jutsu take a tool on the body that clones shouldn't be able to sustain, this tactic, if possible would've been used in a lot of istances by Kakashi expecially in the WA; Minato can outlast Kakashi, can't I just say Minato demostrated even more immense stamina in all his fights? And Kakashi even in the WA had to watch for his one shadow clone usage[*Link Removed*], that's not what someone with an immense stamina would do.

8. Genjutsu that requires eye contact, can be recognized by sensors, and we don't even know how good it is since it only worked on two fodders and to talk things with Obito.

9. User listed: Deidara/Tobi.
Kakashi probably uses a different kind of earth style, and he doesn't have the feats to suggest he becomes like a sensor when he goes undergound, he didn't even attempt using that aganist Zabuza and relied on coping his justu the first time, using his blood the second one, and on a sensory shinobi in the third one.

10. I mean ok, but being "too" (much) in something doesn't mean that you're better than any other person in that thing, it just means you're above average, but Minato is also above average, so a comparison is neded.

Word count: 913

*Spoiler*: _References:_ 



[1] Ch 542 p 14
[2] Ch 544 p 13
[3] Ch 543 p 1
[4] Ch 413 p 10
[5] Ch 229 p 6
[6] Ch 413 p 14
[7] Ch 411 p 15
[8] Ch 566 p 16
[9] Ch 544 p 12
[10] Ch 571 p 3
[11] Ch 608 p 19
[12] Ch 608 p 20
[13] Ch 567 p 16
[14] Ch 630 p 17
[15] Ch 631 p 4
[16] Ch 278 p 5
[17] Ch 568 p 3

Reactions: Like 9


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 12, 2020)

trocollo said:


> *Portrayal:*
> 
> Both are regarded as genius[*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*], but Minato will also get the title of "Saviour of the world / Child of profecy" by Jiraiya[*Link Removed*].
> 
> Both are known all around the world, Kakashi thanks to his mastery of the sharingan and to his father's legacy[*Link Removed*]; Minato beacause his participation in the war was astonishing []("during the 3rd Great Ninja War, he led inferior Konoha camps to victory for times too numerous to mention."), the enemy nations even had to order their ninja to run away from him[*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*]





trocollo said:


> Kakashi traded his life with info on deva path and the destruction of one path of Pain


While it's true Minato was a genius, performance plays a large hand in portrayal [][][].

Kakashi was:

Praised by The Sage of Six Paths for his godly leadership and feats [].

Honoured to be met by Nagato [] who is >> KCM Naruto [] >> *SM Naruto [] > SM Jiraiya (and Minato) []* >> base Jiraiya [].

Nearly about to beat two of the three strongest paths of Pain without even using MS whether by himself [ _- this was moments after paralysing Asura_] or alongside Chōji and Chōza [] (whereas SM Naruto had preparation, more knowledge, 3 boss toads, _and_ 2 sage toads against Deva-Preta-Naraka, managing to beat two but losing to Deva harder than Kakashi had). Conversely, SM Jiraiya thought fighting three of the weaker paths head-on would be too much for him [] and was blindside-blitzed by Asura even after revealing his presence [], the same path that was "blitzed" by Kakashi [].

Praised by and outperforming WA adult Obito [, ] who is >>> KCM Naruto [, , ]. A _teen_ MS Obito only lost to Minato by an edge [].

Remarked upon by SMR Madara [] > Tobirama [] >= KCM Minato [] >>> base Minato.

Praised by Itachi [, ] who is > Nagato [].

Noted as > Jiraiya and Tsunade even before Pain's Assault arc []. 

The son and genius of the _White Fang_ who _far outshone_ the Sannin [, , ]. Despite being a non-Uchiha, he mastered the legendary Mangekyō Sharingan [] which had Deidara compare him to Itachi _even in early Shippuden_ [].

An academy graduate at 5, while Minato graduated at 10. Kakashi became a _Jōnin_ around 10.

Moreover, there's _this_...​

​


trocollo said:


> Minato is the youngest Hokage Konoha ever had, being chosen by Hiruzen over the Sannin, Fugaku and the White Fang to succed him; his life will end shortly after saving the leaf from the treat of Obito and Kurama initiating the manga with his honors[*Link Removed*];


Minato's age plays into his relative _inexperience_. Even by chapter 402, while Minato had completed 847 missions in his lifetime, Kakashi completed 1,141. While Minato completed 25 more A-rank missions, Kakashi completed 3 S-rank, _198_ B-rank, 43 C-rank _and_ 75 D-rank missions more respectively.

​
He would then go on to fight Pain, lead a 16,000-fold platoon against unkillable Mist swordsmen, far outperform KCM Naruto against dojutsu-enhanced V2 jinchūriki and adult Rinnegan Obito (while Minato was pushed to the edge against a much weaker Obito)...




trocollo said:


> and another time he'll try trading it with a restricted Obito but it'll end up being the latter's plan[*Link Removed*].


That was his end goal. Everything in between was genuine:

After declaring death [], he almost shoves a steak through Kakashi's head [].
From earlier, we know Kakashi had the edge in speed [], which Obito legitimises [], further reinforced by parallel flashbacks and Kakashi's faster movements [, ].



> In this particular match-up I don't think I'll be IC of him using Gamabunta or SM anytime near the start.


Agreed.



trocollo said:


> Minato is a sensor and a sage, his fight style is based on FTG variants accompanied by the rasengan,


He won't be a "sage" anytime soon, not to mention fatigue late in the battle.



trocollo said:


> If events unfold in a different way and the battle continues so that Kakashi deduces knowledge on FTG, Minato still has the absolute advantage in speed; as long as he has his kunai, he can evade and attack even at the same time[*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*]; now, even A4 needed Bee's help to dodge Minato's counterattack[*Link Removed*], even tho he had knowledge on Minato's jutsu (as they knew the teleportation works with the marks on the kunai and that he can place them[*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*]), Kakashi being slower than A means that he wouldn't react any better to it.





> his fight style boasts an unparralled speed[*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*][*Link Removed*] such that he's "Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed, the honour of that valour fascinates even the elites of other villages."[],


If by "unparalleled" and "absolute" speed you mean being almost blitzed by a young A4 [], having his Hiraishin movements _physically reacted_ to by a young Bee _twice_ [, ], having his striking hand _grabbed_ by young Obito [], getting tagged with _chains_ before Hiraishin [], moving at a speed young Obito can keep up with []... then Minato will be _*crushed*_ against someone who was moving at speeds >= WA Obito >= KCM Naruto [] >= V2 Ay [] > FKS Sasuke [] >= V1 Ay []. While V1 Ay doesn't look like he was using Shunshin, it doesn't mean he wasn't; same thing with KCM Naruto who was in _several_ desperate situations. Kakashi was even moving on par with KCM Minato in an urgent situation [].

​


> he also has summons and is a master of sealing jutsu.


Kakashi with his astounding intelligence, Kamui, versatility, stamina, trickery, and far faster movement (bar FTG), perception and striking speed, won't be getting "sealed" anytime.

Minato only ever used Gamabunta on panel. He didn't even try summoning the sage toads. Gamabunta won't even be summoned until late, if at all.



trocollo said:


> Minato and Kakashi fight style revolves around precise attacks, *both utilize speed and feints* to land their attacks, Minato relies more on the first while Kakashi more on the seconds;


Minato has no feinting feats at all.

And since when are they comparable [, ]?

*Spoiler*: __ 




​






> they're both really dangerous, as basically, *both of them aren't tanks*,


I agree *Minato isn't a tank*, but _Kakashi???_

Blocking Zabuza's large shuriken with his fist [], surviving three point-blank Shinra Tensei [, , ], tanking blasts from _Kakuzu_ [, , ], shrugging off _*Version 2 bijū*_ attacks while fatigued []...



> neither they plan to win a fight by dominating the opponent with continuos damage from large AoE, but by inflicting fatal damage in a fast and precise window of time, surprising their enemyes.


You misunderstand Kakashi if you think he won't have AoE as an option; due to his resourcefulness, it's well within his capacity to use the _nearby river_ to launch a huge water blast(s) at Minato, followed up with lightning. Minato will end up doing the one thing you should almost _never_ do against Kakashi, and that's revealing your best technique early.



trocollo said:


> while [Kamui] is really powerful, it's not fast enough to tag Minato, as its speed is paragonable to Obito's own warping[*Link Removed*], who's slower than Obito's sucking[*Link Removed*], who Minato already outspeeded with no knowledge on it[*Link Removed*].


Completely false.

*1.* If the likes of Konan could intercept Obito's warping (especially at that distance!) [], even though Obito _blitz-warped KCM Naruto_ (at close range!) [], then Konan must have been KCM Naruto+ tier in speed. Obito simply got faster and stronger once he equipped the rinnegan, making your comparison void.

*2.* Obito's stake being warped near the point of the warp is virtually identical to Obito's warping speed []. It's something that Kakashi could perceive and therefore react to at just the right moment [] (we already know Kakashi can perceive Obito's warping []). Because Obito cannot perceive Kakashi's sniping [, , ], there's no way Obito's warping is > Kakashi's sniping, since their perception speed should be similar. It's merely a misread on your part: Obito and Kakashi effectively performed a DMS self-warp by synchronising their timespace [, ].

*3.* Minato "outspeeded" teen Obito's warp simply because he didn't execute it upon contact.



trocollo said:


> So, what Kakashi can do is feint Minato with a raiton clone to stun him, and use that time to deal the winning blow with Kamui or Raikiri; Kakashi will have to use his other jutsu to help him in pulling this off as he can use his water and/or his earth justu as LoS blockers to create the raiton shadow clone.
> 
> The problem with the above is that Minato is a sensor, he may not enter sensory mode at the start (even tho him reacting to Obito like this[*Link Removed*] suggets it's IC), but after seeing the sharingan or losing sight of his enemy he has all the reasons to enter it, while in that mode he'll recognize that there are two chakra signatures, the clone now won't be able to feint him.


Minato isn't entering sensory mode unless he dives into the forest; even then it's unlikely given his zero knowledge on Kakashi's M.O. and since he'd be occupied with someone much faster, smarter and more versatile than him. Even the likes of Itachi and Pain didn't perceive the chakra signature of a clone in hiding...



> But there's is also another problem, even if we restict sensory out of Minato the effect of the raiton clone is just that of causing paralisys[] as a flow of raiton logically does, but Minato convenientely has FTG, that allows him to transport his body away without the need for any physical movement, so the feint would fail either way.


He can't escape paralysis in the same way he couldn't even escape being tagged by Obito's chain, and he'll have to regain his composure.



trocollo said:


> Other tactics such as Kakashi using large AoE to attack the kunai or attacking Minato with his other jutsu won't work as in the first case he won't able to destroy the kunai but only to displace them, with this he gets to have some stall time by losing some chakra, at best, since Minato has no obligation to just stay still and watch.


Kunai can be easily sliced []; even just the chakra of Kakashi's Lightning Kunai sliced Obito's mask [].



> In the second case Kakashi can't tag Minato with any of his other jutsu, as Minato always has the option to telport or shunshin away, and his reactions allow him to do that as Kakashi can't recreate a faster istance than the ones Minato was in (evaded A's fastest punch and Obito's sucking)


If "non-speedsters" like Madara can blitz SM Naruto, Kakashi can arguably blitz Minato since he's _at least_ as fast as KCM Naruto. Besides FTG, Kakashi is faster in _every_ speed category.



trocollo said:


> *Win conditions for Minato:*
> 
> Right form the start a normal "FTG lvl 2"-like jutsu gets the win to Minato, as Kakashi, at the first kunai lauch towards himself, with no knowledge, won't know what'll hit him, this cause he doesn't have sensory and his sharingan can't predict the FTG attack.


Without the sharingan, while exhausted, Kakashi responded to Obito's huge warped shuriken with Doton: Doryūheki []. Sharingan-aided perception will help him react to wherever Minato goes. *It's more likely Kakashi will bait Minato into a certain spot and blitz him.*



trocollo said:


> *So:*
> Minato's win condition lets him dominate the match from the start while Kakashi's doesn't have one that is effective on Minato, but, even if he had it, it'll need to be a faster one than what Minato has, since, if not, Minato's one would be much likely to happen before Kakashi's one.


If A4 could work out a simple plan to beat Minato, Kakashi will come up with 10 superior strategies within a comparable amount of time.



*Word Count:* 1000​

Reactions: Like 6


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 12, 2020)

@trocollo You seem to have used 1556 words in your second post. That is fine. I believe I have put in more than enough to counteract that.

Good luck 

@Ayala
@Soul
@Ludi
Thank you for judging!

​


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## trocollo (Aug 12, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> @trocollo You seem to have used 1556 words in your second post. That is fine. I believe I have put in more than enough to counteract that.
> 
> Good luck
> 
> ...


Wait there was a limit also for the rebuttal? In that case I'll trim it down thanks for letting me know, tho I'll have to first get to the pc, for now lets consider the rebuttal invalid


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## trocollo (Aug 12, 2020)

Did it! Sorry for the inconveience


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## Ludi (Aug 12, 2020)

Yall using so many links and pictures that my phone doesnt like responsing, liking the posts or replying. Great job 

Ill reread trocollos post, but Im not sure if I can forget what was written, but in general regardless of the wordlimit after the two openingposts I already had an idea it would be a debatebattle about speed and reactions. That's hard 

Question to the participants, should I also judge thethe criteria based on who I think is winning the fight based on the arguments? Because for most criteria that's rather irrelevant in my opinion.

Ill read the 2 rebuttals later today


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## trocollo (Aug 12, 2020)

Ludi said:


> Yall using so many links and pictures that my phone doesnt like responsing, liking the posts or replying. Great job
> 
> Ill reread trocollos post, but Im not sure if I can forget what was written, but in general regardless of the wordlimit after the two openingposts I already had an idea it would be a debatebattle about speed and reactions. That's hard
> 
> ...


Yep sorry again for that, for the criteria I and MS also don't care about all that stuff, this is what we agreed upon being important:


trocollo said:


> Conditions I'd like for them to be more centered around how strong the argument is, and less about the "presenting" part





Mad Scientist said:


> That's fine. I don't care about the presenting part either, I think judges should just focus on the quality of the argument.



Basically who has a better proof / more solid argument / makes sense / etc...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ludi (Aug 12, 2020)

First of all, both of thank you for two great pieces to read, 3/4 even with exactly 1000 words. Great efforts.

Analysis:
I see a clear difference in style and functionality of the posts here. Trocollo in the openings post focuses heavily on describing the portrayal, mechanics and win conditions for both characters while Mad Scientist mainly focuses around his character and how Kakashis speed compares to feats of Minato in his openings post. He also uses combat points, which is really smart, but will be mainly important for the creativity part later. 

In the second post Trocollo can use Mad Scientists opening post about speed to go into the same analysis without sacrificing his overview of both characters, while Mad Scientist tried to move the general overview of the situation in the beginning of his second post. Problem is, the second post doesn't really touch the problem of sensing and FTG besides: 



Mad Scientist said:


> Minato isn't entering sensory mode unless he dives into the forest; even then it's unlikely given his zero knowledge on Kakashi's M.O. and since he'd be occupied with someone much faster, smarter and more versatile than him. Even the likes of Itachi and Pain didn't perceive the chakra signature of a clone





Mad Scientist said:


> If "non-speedsters" like Madara can blitz SM Naruto, Kakashi can arguably blitz Minato since he's _at least_ as fast as KCM Naruto. Besides FTG, Kakashi is faster



Both of these points feel like that if such a situation does arrise, there might be a problem (or not), but especially FTG is ignored on further. This makes the analysis basis of Trocollo more complete, though both are great. *Id give Mad Scientist a A- and Trocollo an A here.*

Moving on to creativity I think in general Kakashi might be a character that is more designed for this criteria. The combat points of Mad Scientist are all pretty creative, but Im not sure if all are actually feasible. Especially 5, 7, 9 and 10 feel a bit akward, which Trocollo also touched on. Especially the clone who could snipe is very interesting, but a big reach. Sensing under ground and having the dogs track without blood on Minato feel iffy. I personally would have liked you to have interacted with the FTG marks and for example, maybe later in the fight, bait a specific FTG mark to use with a clone and preaim Kamui there for example. 

On the other hand Trocollo had a very simple but really efficient creative point in the early FTG Kunai throw. Even if he might not have meant it that way, it either baits out a kamui use, that leads to more knowledge, or an opening (for marking or taking out). Because there was no answer to this specific point I think this is a strong point. Besides that I think it was smart to even name stuff which isnt IC to use at the start, as this gives always room for a potential cheese win later.

Though Im not sure what would happen if Kakashi would Kamui the Mark around the time Minato FTGs, as Kakashi showed to be able to do it very late, like the nail vs Pain. That might be something for after the debate.

*All in all I give Mad Scientist an S- here and Trocollo an A-, for the reasons mentioned earlier*. Yes Mad Scientist had some of his creativity questioned, but that will be touched in the next category.

Moving on the factually, I think the points that felt like reaches might hurt Mad Scientist as much as they rewarded him earlier. The fact that Trocollo himself also questioned these add to that. Besides that I feel like Trocollo only stayed very close to what the manga actually showed directly without grasping, while the speed feats of Mad Scientist felt a bit more relying on other feats that rely on other stuff. Especially the stuff regarding A4 and KCM Naruto, where KCM Naruto had to use top speed, feel iffy when used on situations like the ones with Obito. As Obito was focussed on KCM Naruto (not Kakashi) and KCM Naruto likely wasnt using that same speed. 



Mad Scientist said:


> then Minato will be _*crushed*_ against someone who was moving at speeds >= WA Obito >= KCM Naruto [] >= V2 Ay [] > FKS Sasuke [] >= V1 Ay [].



This in particular. Wether or not it is could be true doesn't really make it totally factual. Also claiming at the end Kakashi can come up with like 10 effective strategies doesn't feel factual. However this type of stuff helps with the pervasiveness, but that's next. *Factual Trocollo gets an S- and Mad Scientist an B+.*

Looking at persuasiveness I felt from the beginning that the style of Mad Scientist feels more persuasive. Would I have not read any Naruto ever I think the way he described the fight and the character quite a bit more appealing and intimidating. I don't think this falls under structure and is quite a weapon. On the other hand Trocollo didn't seem to intimidated and could stay true to his own style regardless. The fact that the opening is really strong on his own character and many big moments are added help to envision Kakashi as a great danger. The calmer and factual style of Trocollo brings the message but doesn't go the extra mile for me. The ending of the opening states that if Kakashi wants to win he needs a strong opening that is faster than the one of Minato. Mad Scientist at the end of his last post claims that Kakashi as this and could come up with many. As this was the final post, even if I would question whether this to be true or not (see factual) it is very persuasive. *Trocollo gets an A here and Mad Scientist an S.*

Even Though structure isnt important as mentioned earlier, I want to thank both for a well structured piece of art and both contestants staying true to a style and structure. *A+ for both*.


So we have 

Trocollo A A- S- A A+
Average between A&A+, closer to A
Median: A
Spread: from A- to S-

Mad Scientist A- S- B+ S A+
Average between A&A+, closer to A+
Median A+
Spread: from  B+ to S

As a mathematician I dont like bigger variance in categories, and I would prefer a higher lower ranking in case of a tie, *but because Mad Scientist has a slightly better average and median, my vote goes to him.*

That is besides the fact that I feel like he also had the underdog character in the eyes of many.

This was my first time judging, I hope I did alright and this is the type of judgement both of you wanted. If any category like Factually should outweight Persuasiveness, creativity or analysis, please let me know.

Thanks again!


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 12, 2020)

Ludi said:


> Especially the clone who could snipe is very interesting, but a big reach.


I would like to clarify one thing. This applies to @trocollo as well.

When I say that a shadow clone could help Kakashi use Kamui, I don't mean that the clone can use Kamui, I mean that the clone can basically act as a distraction while Kakashi camps.


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## Ludi (Aug 12, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> I would like to clarify one thing. This applies to @trocollo as well.
> 
> When I say that a shadow clone could help Kakashi use Kamui, I don't mean that the clone can use Kamui, I mean that the clone can basically act as a distraction while Kakashi camps.




He can summon a shadow clone(s) to help him (e.g. to snipe)

Sounded like you meant that, but since you didn't have a third post and trocollo understood it similarly I judged based on that. But thanks for clarifying


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 12, 2020)

Ludi said:


> He can summon a shadow clone(s) to help him (e.g. to snipe)
> 
> Sounded like you meant that, but since you didn't have a third post and trocollo understood it similarly I judged based on that. But thanks for clarifying


I agree I should have worded it better. It was meant to be read seamlessly, as in "He can summon a shadow clone(s) to help him to snipe." I just put the "e.g." because that's just one example.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Aug 14, 2020)

@Mad Scientist I wanted to do this after the judges' votes, but seems like they're taking their time, so, if you're still interested, as I said you before, would be cool for me to continue this debate between us, we can make another thread to talk about our points and see if we come to an understanding

So if you're cool with this I think the majior point we should clear first is about speed, both combact and kamui's, since it's everywere in the points of the argument, then we can go over the other points and the portrayal, I'd leave the latter for last since you didn't bring it up in your OP and I also don't care about it but thought I should have it in a formal debate; or if you're growing more interested in that we can also do portrayal first and the rest later, basically I'd just like to have some order in the argument otherwise I'm gonna get lost in the enormous replyes with a lot of points on different things so feel free to chose the order; tho again, if you're still interested in this, cause, I hope not, but things getting long is a possibility


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## Ayala (Aug 14, 2020)

Sorry to keep you waiting guys, been busy days. 99% i'll have it ready tomorrow


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## trocollo (Aug 14, 2020)

Ayala said:


> Sorry to keep you waiting guys, been busy days. 99% i'll have it ready tomorrow


Thanks but I don't want to haste you, these things are long to do so take your time, it was to set up things with MS, like when you know your food is gonna take 20 minutes to cook so in the meantime you go fix an hole, while if it takes 2 min you just wait

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## Mad Scientist (Aug 14, 2020)

trocollo said:


> @Mad Scientist I wanted to do this after the judges' votes, but seems like they're taking their time, so, if you're still interested, as I said you before, would be cool for me to continue this debate between us, we can make another thread to talk about our points and see if we come to an understanding
> 
> So if you're cool with this I think the majior point we should clear first is about speed, both combact and kamui's, since it's everywere in the points of the argument, then we can go over the other points and the portrayal, I'd leave the latter for last since you didn't bring it up in your OP and I also don't care about it but thought I should have it in a formal debate; or if you're growing more interested in that we can also do portrayal first and the rest later, basically I'd just like to have some order in the argument otherwise I'm gonna get lost in the enormous replyes with a lot of points on different things so feel free to chose the order; tho again, if you're still interested in this, cause, I hope not, but things getting long is a possibility


Let's do this after the judging. The judges may spot flaws in our posts that even we didn't spot ourselves.


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## trocollo (Aug 15, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Let's do this after the judging. The judges may spot flaws in our posts that even we didn't spot ourselves.


Right that's better


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## Ayala (Aug 15, 2020)

*Opening posts*: 

*trocollo*; keeps it compact and simple, also pays respect to both characters instead of just the one he argues for. In this way, he doesn't come off as biased as one tends to look like in these debates. He got to the point without really devolving much, basically what can these guys do to win against each other. For Kakashi, it's Kamui and raiton clones to help him stun Minato long enough for a follow up. He then explains that Kakashi's Kamui shouldn't be fast enough to warp Minato as the man outspeed a faster Kamui warp from Obito. Now, this has been an ongoing debate for years, in that how the Kamui speed compares between the two users. It's difficult to reach a common ground and the manga itself isn't very clear. Personally, i don't think Kakashi's Kamui is as fast as Obito's own warping, due to comparing feats between them: Kakashi can warp fast and large objects like Susano'o arrows and warp Naruto's clone away right before Obito could warp in a stake, which wouldn't be possible if Obito's Kamui was faster. But, this is not trocollo's fault, as this is an unsolved piece in the NBD overall, and for me to judge trocollo badly for this, because i think that i have the right answer, wouldn't feel right to me. 

He then makes a point for Minato's sensory skills countering clones, which is a good point. Though there's to think that maybe there's a limit to his sensory skills, due to Minato for example needing to finger touch the ground to get a precise telling of the Iwa guy's clones lying for an ambush. Also, Minato's reaction to Obito could be due to his own sensibility to someone sneaking on you, not necessarily due to sensory abilities, at least i don't remember it being mentioned. Minato also didn't keep his sensory skill up during his battle with Zetsu possesed Obito, and later failed to sense the sneaking Zetsu from underground too, and this was 2 crucial times where sensory skill is avaible would be a must. So overall this remains a bit up in the air and due to a poor track record, doesn't convince enough, but it's a possibility, also because as he mentions, even restricting it, Minato could possibly get away in time even if stunned due to the FGT properties.

He also explains how other options of Ninjutsu AOE or other thinkable situations that Kakashi can reproduce, are likely not fast or efficient enough to allow him to get hits on Minato. 

trocollo makes a comparison between A4 and Kakashi, saying that if A4 was outmaneuvered and unable to react to Minato's follow up, Kakashi wouldn't be able to. This would maybe work if these characters and their fighting motions were the same, and if Kakashi went diving deep with a Raikiri on full sight, which would leave him counterable like A was. But perhaps it's not his style, so the comparison is off imo. 

*Mad Scientist*: He starts his post by taking a shot at Minato, saying he would have been blitzed by A4 if this happened in Shippuden, due to his chakra store maybe rising up. Im not too convinced of this, because as trocollo also later counters, A4 pairs both KCM Naruto and Minato in the same group of people having dodged his fastest punch, and still considers Minato unsurpassable to this day. 

I also am not very convinced of the following part: 

"In fact,  – Kakashi is far more precise and experienced.  – Kakashi is stealthier, faster, and possesses the self-warp which can only be discerned at around  (who could hardly get close to Obito before Kakashi) or ."

Im not convinced of the EMS Sasuke precognition part to tell the truth, as he just noted that someone was coming in, and that's something that can be noted by anyone. But MS also had a great note where he notes Minato would have been possibly warped away if the the warping started as soon as possible instead of waiting and giving time.

He also makes a comparison between Kakashi and Naruto performance against the Jins, in which Kakashi performs better due to the simple fact of lasting longer than Naruto did. Feat wise, there's no way to argue this, if someone came in and read the manga without outside influences, not knowing who Kakashi or KCM Naruto are, he could very well agree with the notion of Kakashi being stronger due to performing better.

What im not convinced of is the following comparison between Obito, Kakashi and KCM Naruto regarding speed. There's no note of the panels representing Naruto's top speed, probably not if base Gai can follow up. 

MS also makes various points about Kakashi's arsenal heavily outclassing Minato, but imo that's overdoing it, it almost looks like Kakashi's a Kage who's fighting a Chunin. 

*Rebutals*

*trocollo: *The first part of his rebuttal, i have some problems with: A4's tactic not working because it's an enraged thought for example, it's not true, it wasn't presented as A4 saying fuck it and rushing, it has thought and written details, such as him memorizing the places of the kunai and then waiting to follow up. Also Tobi says he would have won if he started the warping in time, Minato reacted yeah, but he was given a window of time, if you take it away it's pressumed Minato loses, also because Minato himself says it'll come down to a split second and that he can't fuck around letting Obito touch him.

 But overall, i must say that it gets a bit far from the Minato vs Kakashi discussion imo, wasted word counts that could be used for a more crucial point or counter. It tends to take the focus away, which is what i said in my previous debate with Shark to trocollo as well. We must hear about these two guys, Kakashi and Minato, not so much about Obito or A4 and other guys. Yeah a straight comparison would be great, but these are situations that almost don't compare and it's a long dwelling on it. Not trocollo's fault, as i know he thinks it's right to adress everything the other says, but just saying, it's not something i prefer personally.

This part also is a bit unclear:" Kakashi isn't stealthier than Obito, beacause of phasing.
Same thing for faster, Obito just closes in with phasing and if he touches you you're done."

trocollo also adressed the relation of speed between KCM Naruto, Obito and Kakashi that MS pones, and i think it's on point. He then counters MS's points i'd say mostly well, maybe with 2 exceptions: Gedo's arm which was warped should be bigger than Bunta and the raiton thing wasn't answered, plus Sharingan Genjutsu even from regular Uchiha has been noted as troublesome, so to say Minato who has no hype on the field too, shrugs off a mastered Sharingan Genjutsu is not a strong proposition. But yeah, Genjutsu overall is tough to handle in these debates, i know, not his fault.

*Mad Scientist: *he list Kakashi's accolades, but imo he overdoes it in his intent: for example, praised to be met by Nagato who's much stronger than KCM Naruto who's much stronger than SM Naruto who's stronger than Minato. This chain doesn't get us a real conclusion, same for other examples of Madara who's stronger than Tobirama praising him doesn't. Plus one of them is also wrong, such as him being noted better than Jman and Tsunade before the Pain arc. 

MS also adressed a part that is still argued today, on what Kakashi's performance in boxland against Obito meant. Yeah Obito tried to shove a steak through his face, but it probably was within his consideration of Kakashi's capacities. But, as Obito notes before walking away, Kakashi seemingly legittimately won that battle, also because it'd be more accomplishing to say "thanks for playing into my hands" than "you win this battle".

Then again we get into the speed comparison between chaarcters, which as previously mentioned i find a bit off. He also later adresses the sensor skill of Minato, but i must say im not very convinced of that part, such as Minato needing to dive into a forest, or his situation being likened to Itachi's and Pain's, who aren't sensors. MS also adresses the raiton effects on Minato's capacity for a FGT use, but this is anyone's guess, no one knows what would happen and how strong the effects would be on him.

He imo fails to properly adress trocollo's claim of Kakashi's ninjutsu not being able to deal with spead kunais. Yes, if Kakashi tags the kunai one by one with Raikiri, he can cut them, but that was not trocollo's point about AOE ninjutsu not being able to do else but maybe displace them. 

Also this: "*It's more likely Kakashi will bait Minato into a certain spot and blitz him." *It honestly seems a bit improbable.

And this: "If A4 could work out a simple plan to beat Minato, Kakashi will come up with 10 superior strategies within a comparable amount of time." This also doesn't work considering these are 2 different characters with different skillset, but i can see that you say this in the belief that Kakashi's just a faster A4 with more versatility, which i personally disagree due to lack of tangible proof. 

Overall, i'll vote *trocollo*, as imo his case was more convincing. Good job to you both though

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ayala (Aug 20, 2020)

Bro i hope something happens here and all ends well


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## Ludi (Aug 20, 2020)

Maybe @Soul  just forgot 

I summon thei to vote


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## Soul (Aug 20, 2020)

I did forget
Should post it Saturday

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 20, 2020)

Soul said:


> I did forget
> Should post it Saturday


If you have time, that would be great Soul.


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## trocollo (Aug 24, 2020)

@Soul btw did you forget again? If it's just that you're too busy to judge it's cool to just let us know that, so we can decide to take another judge or to stop here

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soul (Aug 24, 2020)

trocollo said:


> @Soul btw did you forget again? If it's just that you're too busy to judge it's cool to just let us know that, so we can decide to take another judge or to stop here



Nope, I just like judging sober.
Already working on it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soul (Aug 24, 2020)

I'll post by sections, then clean it up because it seems that people are eager to finish this up.

_Soul's Satire_


*Spoiler*: _Concerns of the first post_ 



To be honest not a lot, I just don't get the approach you are taking.
There are quite a few mentions of your opponent and there isn't much substance as to why your character will win.

Win conditions are not valuable information, since the characters are IC. My job as a judge is to evaluate how well you argued for your side as to what will happen in this match-up. You didn't really argued here.




Pros:

Inconsequential, but adding the pages of the links in case they fail is smart.

Cons:

Your initial post is not doing much for me. I know most of what you explained since most of your post is just stating what they can do.
In short, you aren't really attempting to sway the reader, which is the main purpose of this exercise.


*Spoiler*: _Concerns of the first post_ 





Mad Scientist said:


> A4’s  and build starkly improve over a decade.



How much, however, is up to the voter/judge.
I see what you are trying to do, just keep in mind that you might not get the results you are expecting in other scenarios with this same approach. Databook info to back up your claim helps you to an extent, but we know how people feel about the databook.



> It was strongly implied that even young Ay could have potentially blitzed Minato if he had appeared at one of the kunai spots within Ay’s vision.



Obito was supposed to be able to be one step of Minato in heir previous fight until Minato proved him wrong.
I disagree with the fact that Minato couldn't just dodge him even if the raikage had every tag in his sight, since Minato can just use Hiraishin again to move.




> to . In fact,  – Kakashi is far more precise and experienced.  – Kakashi is stealthier, faster, and possesses the self-warp which can only be discerned at around  (who could hardly get close to Obito before Kakashi) or .



Keep in mind that Minato only fought in CQC because he felt he had the edge, and the execution was simple enough.
I don't know about Kakashi being better in CQC when he can't become untouchable like Obito could, even if he has the advantages you mentioned.




Pros:

8/10 music selection.
Thoroughly elaborated on feats of your biggest advantage (Kamui).
ABC logic is normally not something I like, but applying it to speed is hard to argue against.
Overall solid effort. Well done.

Cons:

Not much to be honest. There's some nitpick in the spoiler tags but for the most part you did alright.

As for my verdict, this one is fairly straightforward.
trocollo didn't really attempt to sway me in any way in his opening post, while MS did. He offered both feats and portrayal to get his point across.
I don't believe that Kakashi will win, but *Mad Scientist's* argument was better in my eyes, and the gap isn't a small one to be honest. I can elaborate further on why the rebuttal didn't sway me if necessary (both contestants did well in this regard, by the way).


*Spoiler*: _Scoring criteria_ 



No fucking clue what the "On the basis of S, A, B, C (+/-)" instruction means by the way.

Analysis
MS: 8
Troccollo 6.5

Creativity
MS: 9 (Song, panels, etc do count for me)
Troccollo 7.5

Structure
MS: 7.5
Troccollo 7.5

Factual - C-
MS: 9
Troccollo 9

Persuasiveness - S+
MS: 8.5
Troccollo 7

Reactions: Like 3


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## trocollo (Aug 25, 2020)

Nice win @Mad Scientist 
Now if you're still up for continuing it we can go at it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 25, 2020)

Thanks again! @Mawt @trocollo @Ludi @Ayala @Soul

Soul, we can have that 250-word debate if you want 



trocollo said:


> Nice win @Mad Scientist


Thanks! I enjoyed this debate 



> Now if you're still up for continuing it we can go at it


Sounds good. My goal from here on out will be to convince you that Kakashi wins this matchup mid-diff or less.

Let's try to keep it as comprehensive, relevant and concise as possible.


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## trocollo (Aug 25, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Sounds good. My goal from here on out will be to convince you that Kakashi wins this matchup mid-diff or less.
> 
> Let's try to keep it as comprehensive, relevant and concise as possible.


Same for me, so what you want to start talking about?
So far I'm seeing these open points:
Speed of the characters and of Kamui
Some points here and there (in combact points for you and mechanics of the characters for me)
Portrayal

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Aug 25, 2020)

Ah right, @MShadows this can be unpinned now


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## Ludi (Aug 25, 2020)

Congrats to the winner, but actually to both contestants. Was fun!


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## MShadows (Aug 25, 2020)

Congratulations, @Mad Scientist! 

Both you and @trocollo were great in debating


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 25, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Same for me, so what you want to start talking about?
> So far I'm seeing these open points:
> Speed of the characters and of Kamui
> Some points here and there (in combact points for you and mechanics of the characters for me)
> Portrayal


Yup, those are good points to discuss. I think speed will be good first.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Aug 25, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Yup, those are good points to discuss. I think speed will be good first.


Nice, so starting with the speed of the ninja, I disagree with your point / chain-of-comparison principarly when you compare speeds with KCM Naruto, shunshin is a jutsu, it's not a passive perk that is always active, after using it Naruto got the burts of speed to escape A4 but he didn't enter a new level of movement speed permanently, it's not like he can infinitely increrase his speed by casting shunshin again and again

Along with it with this kind of comparison that's just too many people who fight at "V2 speed":
The edo-jin (since they fought NCM Naruto), the masters (since they fought Obito who fought Minato), Itachi (since he fought KCM Naruto), Nagato (same as Itachi), Bee (fought with A4), Kisame (fought with Bee and a jin who's still Bee), Onoki (fought with A4), Tsunade (fought with A4), Mei(fought with A4), Gaara(fought with A4), Mu(fought with Onoki who fought with A4), Pain(controlled by Nagato and keeped up with V2 jin Naruto), Jiraiya (fought Pain), Gengetsu(fought Gaara and his jokey things even excaped his sand), Konan(fought Obito), Deidara(fought Onoki), Kakuzu(fought Kakashi), Hidan(fought Kakashi), Hebi Sasuke(fought Deidara), Zabuza(fought Kakashi), Haku(fought Kakashi)
We can pretty much list everyone in the series since everyone is connected with anyone else by battles they fought without any of the two being blitzed by the other or team fights where evreyone keeped up with everyone without losing track of what was happening


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## Trojan (Aug 25, 2020)

congrats for winning @Mad Scientist & better luck to @trocollo next time

just as a previous debate between Jiraiya Vs itachi could have ended with 1 page/statement.
So should have this one

*Spoiler*: _1_ 




Minato's arm solos 




thank you and good luck


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## trocollo (Aug 25, 2020)

New Folder said:


> congrats for winning @Mad Scientist & better luck to @trocollo next time
> 
> just as a previous debate between Jiraiya Vs itachi could have ended with 1 page/statement.
> So should have this one
> ...


Thanks but next time will prolly be in another year in next august lol, anyway the debate actually just started, finally I got to do what I always wanted to: I and MS shared our points clearly so each other can understand the other and had judges to evaluate our thoughts we can use this information to clearly share our views and see what happens


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## Trojan (Aug 25, 2020)

tbh, @Mad Scientist deserves to win if nothing else but the fact on how much he wrote about a character is clearly outclassed in every aspect 

before this started I was like "how the fuck can one write 1000 words about a character that is 3-4 tiers below the other one"
but I guess he managed that... Kappa


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## trocollo (Aug 25, 2020)

New Folder said:


> tbh, @Mad Scientist deserves to win if nothing else but the fact on how much he wrote about a character is clearly outclassed in every aspect
> 
> before this started I was like "how the fuck can one write 1000 words about a character that is 3-4 tiers below the other one"
> but I guess he managed that... Kappa


Yep as a debater he utterly destroyed me lol, I had no doubts there, we agreed for the conditions for this match to be just about the factuality of the argument but we ended up having also judgements in other areas, who even if it was predictable, is still useful


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 25, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Nice, so starting with the speed of the ninja, I disagree with your point / chain-of-comparison principarly when you compare speeds with KCM Naruto, shunshin is a jutsu, it's not a passive perk that is always active, after using it Naruto got the burts of speed to escape A4 but he didn't enter a new level of movement speed permanently, it's not like he can infinitely increrase his speed by casting shunshin again and again


*Presumption:* As far as I'm aware, anytime a character jumps from one spot to another spot that covers a significant distance, that's probably a good indicator that they are probably using Shunshin.

Naruto seemed to use Shunshin against A4 initially. I think this is self-evident regardless of said presumption. For Naruto to have moved at a speed _faster_ than that — keeping in mind his intention was to _circle around_ A4, meaning he would likely be _running_ — he had to have used an even faster Shunshin. If it hasn't already been established, this demonstrates that Shunshin can be active while one is running/moving (by "moving" or "movement speed", I mean short movements within a 5-metre radius, for example). Even the  alludes to this in its conjunction and elaboration on perception. So although A4/Sasuke didn't necessarily _look_ like they were using Shunshin, the odds are they _did_, it's just that they are relative in speed.

It's the same thing with KCM Naruto. He was up against a character so fast he could physically dodge his desperate chakra arm and counterattack...

*Spoiler*: __ 








...and move so fast Naruto can't even turn his head (or flicker out of the way) before Obito's hand is upon his face.

*Spoiler*: __ 









When it comes to Obito, KCM Naruto doesn't have a choice. He _has_ to use speeds at the high–top levels to keep up with someone that fast and dangerous, i.e. he needs Shunshin. Remember when Minato said Obito's spacetime teleportation exceeded his and Tobirama's, and that he would become an even greater threat than the Nine-Tails? _Fifteen years_ later, that time came, naturally. The same guy that surpassed Minato was shown to be fodder relative to Obito when they fought one-on-one (two-on-one, if you count the clone). Against Obito, it isn't that KCM Naruto wasn't using Shunshin... Obito's just that fast. If CS2 Hebi Sasuke is relative to SM Jiraiya who is relative to SM Naruto, and MS Sasuke is relative to V1+ A4, and teen EMS Sasuke is relative to KCM Naruto (notice the pattern?), and blind RT Madara blitzed SM Naruto, why can't adult Rinnegan Obito Uchiha be comparable to KCM Naruto or V2 A4 in speed?

Evidently, the _same lines and chakra flickers_ surrounding KCM Naruto during his top speed against A4 were _also_ present when lunging a Rasengan at Obito's face, as they should be.

*Spoiler*: __ 










Additionally, _Obito has on-panel moved faster than KCM Naruto's Shunshin_. Albeit, Naruto was fatigued, so I guess you could attribute some of the difference to that (still wouldn't make a real difference, given all). The only reason Naruto wasn't caught is because he reacted in time due to Kakashi's notification.

*Spoiler*: __ 











trocollo said:


> after using it Naruto got the burts of speed to escape A4 but he didn't enter a new level of movement speed permanently, it's not like he can infinitely increrase his speed by casting shunshin again and again


I understand that characters don't necessarily always move their top speeds. But _against powerful and fast_ characters, why would he _not_ consistently use that speed, given that he seemed to have had good control over it — didn't that scene highlight his mastery of moving at such speed?



trocollo said:


> Along with it with this kind of comparison that's just too many people who fight at "V2 speed":





trocollo said:


> The edo-jin (since they fought NCM Naruto), the masters (since they fought Obito who fought Minato), Itachi (since he fought KCM Naruto), Nagato (same as Itachi), Bee (fought with A4), Kisame (fought with Bee and a jin who's still Bee), Onoki (fought with A4), Tsunade (fought with A4), Mei(fought with A4), Gaara(fought with A4), Mu(fought with Onoki who fought with A4), Pain(controlled by Nagato and keeped up with V2 jin Naruto), Jiraiya (fought Pain), Gengetsu(fought Gaara and his jokey things even excaped his sand), Konan(fought Obito), Deidara(fought Onoki), Kakuzu(fought Kakashi), Hidan(fought Kakashi), Hebi Sasuke(fought Deidara), Zabuza(fought Kakashi), Haku(fought Kakashi)


That's incorrect.

For the following characters, it's only natural that they'd be able to move at such speed.

Dojutsu-enhanced edo jins are a given.
Masters. 6G Gai blitzed Kisame. Gai and Kakashi kept up with several edo jins.
Itachi. If EMS Sasuke, Rinnegan Obito and WA Kakashi have speed comparable to KCM Naruto, why can't Edo Itachi, whom in his sick state had databook speed higher than SM Jiraiya and Kakashi and could match BOS Kakashi in speed?
Bee's a given.

For the other characters you've listed, they don't have V2 A4-levels of movement speed.

Nagato doesn't have feats indicating that he can move at KCM Naruto speed.

Outside of Kisamehada, Kisame doesn't have feats indicating that he can move at KCM Naruto speed.

Onoki certainly doesn't have such feats.
Tsunade was stated to be slower than a Raikage that hadn't used his top speed.
Mei certainly doesn't have such feats.
Gaara doesn't have movement speed on that level either.
Nor does Mu.
Pain being controlled by a sick Nagato and moving no faster than SM Naruto doesn't mean he's comparable to KCM Naruto who's substantially faster than SM Naruto. Pain ran into the forest so he probably had the more efficient manner of moving (KN6 is like a wild, heavy beast). What makes KN6 as fast as a dojutsu-enhanced V2 jinchuriki?
SM Jiraiya isn't as fast as KCM Naruto. The fact you have to use Pain to support that even though it's obviously false should serve as a hint that Pain isn't on KCM Naruto's level.
I'd appreciate a scan proving that Gengetsu is on KCM Naruto's speed level.
Konan doesn't have feats indicating that she can move at KCM Naruto speed.
Nor does Deidara.
Nor does Kakuzu.
Nor does Hidan. IA Kakashi < WA Kakashi.
Nor does Hebi Sasuke.
Nor does Zabuza.
Nor does Haku. Haku's DB speed was a 4. He isn't even faster than SM Jiraiya or Hebi Sasuke. But, just to clear up the misunderstanding, using Shunshin to intercept a running attack that isn't using Shunshin against a stealthy WA Kakashi that (presumably) hadn't yet evolved his chakra isn't saying much.



trocollo said:


> We can pretty much list everyone in the series since everyone is connected with anyone else by battles they fought without any of the two being blitzed by the other or team fights where evreyone keeped up with everyone without losing track of what was happening


We can't do that because the parallels don't exist.


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## trocollo (Aug 25, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> *Presumption:* As far as I'm aware, anytime a character jumps from one spot to another spot that covers a significant distance, that's probably a good indicator that they are probably using Shunshin.


Well, for example Naruto jumping at Gaara from a tree in the CE to punch him wasn't shunshin even tho it covered a significant distance, there is another difference, that is shunshin always has the character who casts the jutsu disappearing from its location and reappearing somewere else



Mad Scientist said:


> Naruto seemed to use Shunshin against A4 initially. I think this is self-evident regardless of said presumption. For Naruto to have moved at a speed _faster_ than that — keeping in mind his intention was to _circle around_ A4, meaning he would likely be _running_ — he had to have used an even faster Shunshin. If it hasn't already been established, this demonstrates that Shunshin can be active while one is running/moving (by "moving" or "movement speed", I mean short movements within a 5-metre radius, for example). Even the  alludes to this in its conjunction and elaboration on perception. So although A4/Sasuke didn't necessarily _look_ like they were using Shunshin, the odds are they _did_, it's just that they are relative in speed.


Naruto's shunshin isn't always active, in his fight with A4 we see when he disappears and reappears, that's when he uses shunshin, his speed isn't equal, those moments of disappearances that are in tercepted by A4's moments of disappearance are when both of them used shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> It's the same thing with KCM Naruto. He was up against a character so fast he could physically dodge his desperate chakra arm and counterattack...
> *Spoiler*:
> 
> 
> ...


In the first scan Naruto couldn't move his body, while in the second he's aware of what's happening, like with A4 fastest punch, he can use his shunshin but he didn't, who is different by he couldn't, in fact when he needs to use it he does so intecepting both Obito and Madara from  



Mad Scientist said:


> When it comes to Obito, KCM Naruto doesn't have a choice. He _has_ to use speeds at the high–top levels to keep up with someone that fast and dangerous, i.e. he needs Shunshin. Remember when Minato said Obito's spacetime teleportation exceeded his and Tobirama's, and that he would become an even greater threat than the Nine-Tails? _Fifteen years_ later, that time came, naturally. The same guy that surpassed Minato was shown to be fodder relative to Obito when they fought one-on-one (two-on-one, if you count the clone). Against Obito, it isn't that KCM Naruto wasn't using Shunshin... Obito's just that fast. If CS2 Hebi Sasuke is relative to SM Jiraiya who is relative to SM Naruto, and MS Sasuke is relative to V1+ A4, and teen EMS Sasuke is relative to KCM Naruto (notice the pattern?), and blind RT Madara blitzed SM Naruto, why can't adult Rinnegan Obito Uchiha be comparable to KCM Naruto or V2 A4 in speed?


Naruto has to use everything he has at high-top level, surely also his speed, but shunshin isn't something you keep always active, it's a jutsu you decide to cast, KCM Naruto isn't in a permanent shunshin state is all I'm saying and we see when he uses shunshin by him disappearing from one place and reappearing in another one, it's a burst of speed superior to the speed displayed beforehand it
I remember Minato saying Obito's justu was better, but that doesn't mean that Kamui lets Obito move at shunshin-like speed, neither that Minato moves at shunshin like speed without FTG in his fight with Obito, even there we see when Minato uses shunshin, and that's when he saves Naruto and when he saves Kushina



Mad Scientist said:


> Evidently, the _same lines and chakra flickers_ surrounding KCM Naruto during his top speed against A4 were _also_ present when lunging a Rasengan at Obito's face, as they should be.
> *Spoiler*:


Those lines were present from when 



Mad Scientist said:


> Additionally, _Obito has on-panel moved faster than KCM Naruto's Shunshin_. Albeit, Naruto was fatigued, so I guess you could attribute some of the difference to that (still wouldn't make a real difference, given all). The only reason Naruto wasn't caught is because he reacted in time due to Kakashi's notification.
> *Spoiler*:


He needed to be notified yep, so how you know Naruto used shunshin in the moment Obito attacked and not after?



Mad Scientist said:


> I understand that characters don't necessarily always move their top speeds. But _against powerful and fast_ characters, why would he _not_ consistently use that speed, given that he seemed to have had good control over it — didn't that scene highlight his mastery of moving at such speed?


Because shunshin is a jutsu that you use one time, it's also showed at being telportation-like, the character disappears and reappears when it's used, it's not like Naruto activates a new form and now he's invisible cause he's moving too fast all the time, it's a normal jutsu that has a chakra cost



Mad Scientist said:


> That's incorrect.
> 
> For the following characters, it's only natural that they'd be able to move at such speed.
> 
> ...


1. Didn't he capture and reacted to KCM Naruto attacks?
2. But he kept up with Bee
3. He kept up with A, enpowering him and coordinating the weighted punch
4. I know, like A4 was stated to be the fastest ninja after Minato, I'd go with that
5. She kept up with all the gokage in their fight with Madara, Madara wasn't fliking away from her, she could tag and percive him, along with fighting alongside A and the other kage who kept up with A
6. For Gaara I meant his sand, agree that his body just stand still and that's it
7. Mu fought on par with Onoki, so it's dependant on him
8. Didn't think of the dojustu enhancement, but V2 Bee isn't dojustu enhancement and Kurama has the highest chakra levels from all the tailed beasts so why would he need a dojutsu enhancment? Naruto himself can mentally react to A4 without dojutsu enhancment, and Naruto is the host of KN6; plus Pain also fought Kakashi actually and was on his level of speed
9. If Pain goes at V2 so Jiraiya does, I'm not negating that this creates contradictions in the results, but if the Pain point ends up in Pain moving at V2 then so Jiraiya has to end up moving at V2
10. Depends on Gaara as I wrote, if the point of his sand moving at V2 goes trough so does this
11. Isn't she keeping up with Obito the feat for it?
12. It's dependant on the point prior as explained in the parentesis Deidara is dependant on Onoki, if Onoki falls so does Deidara
13. But he kept up with Kakashi and was winning the battle
14. Ah ok so guess same response for the point above, now I don't get why Kakashi improved in speed from IA to WA tho
15. Ok, but again it's dependant on another thing, Deidara goes down and he does
16. But he was even in the WA aganist Kakashi
17. That's what I'm trying to say here, shunshin makes the difference, tho Haku also intercepted him in the mist (but I gotta find the panel), anyway him intercepting Kakashi's attack to Zabuza should suggest that he could keep up with Kakashi attack speed, for example if Kakashi attacked Haku the latter could've used shunshin to get away



Mad Scientist said:


> We can't do that because the parallels don't exist.


Not sure what's your definition of parallels and how you think they validate a speed comparison


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 25, 2020)

Ludi said:


> Congrats to the winner, but actually to both contestants. Was fun!


Who won? Minato or kakashi ?


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## Trojan (Aug 25, 2020)

all those points about the speed are just bad...

the manga makes it clear when an extreme speed is used, and highlight the point.
had all characters and their mothers been as fast as KCM Naruto and faster than V2 A, Kishi wouldn't have gone out
of his way to say that A is the fastest, and only Naruto & Minato are faster than him.

Nor is anyone of them will be hailed for his speed, if their speed was just "average" so much that everyone is equal to them.
Those points are just desperation/nitpicking

Reactions: Like 2


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## trocollo (Aug 25, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Who won? Minato or kakashi ?


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 25, 2020)

trocollo said:


>



interesting... i would say I am surprised but this forum got some dodgy posters 

Haven’t read all of it because too long 
These threads aren’t bad it kept to 500 words each . But at 1000 ain’t nobody got time for That


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## Ludi (Aug 25, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Who won? Minato or kakashi ?


Mad scientist won. Which character wins is kinda irrelevant for me, tbh. I think Mad Scientist scores better on judging criteria (besides visuals as they were not to be taken into account). Especially persuasiveness. 

My personal opinion is that I think Minato is more likely to be fast enough to set up an FTG when Kakashi doesnt use instant Kamui and probably wins more often than not. Especially with no knowledge.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Aug 25, 2020)

New Folder said:


> all those points about the speed are just bad...
> 
> the manga makes it clear when an extreme speed is used, and highlight the point.
> had all characters and their mothers been as fast as KCM Naruto and faster than V2 A, Kishi wouldn't have gone out
> ...


I think there's just a confusion on how shunshin works, we have statements that directly prove that Minato is faster, but everyone always questions them so I'd rather go with feats since I get to the same result either way, and if it ends up I'm wrong then I'm wrong



MHA massive fan said:


> interesting... i would say I am surprised but this forum got some dodgy posters
> 
> Haven’t read all of it because too long
> These threads aren’t bad it kept to 500 words each . But at 1000 ain’t nobody got time for That


These debates don't have to represent the truth, things other than just the argument usually get evalued and even if just the arguments where evaluated we are just two guys debating with three other guys deciding who wins, that's all, you can agree or disagree with the judges, but the only way to get to a win is just to get to an agreement with the other guy, whatever the argument is both win since the new idea is agreed upon


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 25, 2020)

Ludi said:


> Mad scientist won. Which character wins is kinda irrelevant for me, tbh.



Oh it is relevant as it shows who argued better doesn’t it ?


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 25, 2020)

trocollo said:


> I think there's just a confusion on how shunshin works, we have statements that directly prove that Minato is faster, but everyone always questions them so I'd rather go with feats since I get to the same result either way, and if it ends up I'm wrong then I'm wrong
> 
> 
> These debates don't have to represent the truth, things other than just the argument usually get evalued and even if just the arguments where evaluated we are just two guys debating with three other guys deciding who wins, that's all, you can agree or disagree with the judges, but the only way to get to a win is just to get to an agreement with the other guy, whatever the argument is both win since the new idea is agreed upon



oh I know that’s why I said it’s interesting


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## Ludi (Aug 25, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Oh it is relevant as it shows who argued better doesn’t it ?



I added this to my previous post.

I think Mad Scientist scores better on judging criteria (besides visuals as they were not to be taken into account). Especially persuasiveness.

Like if you come into this topic neutral and without any knowledge and only read these 2 posts each, MS claimed more convinsively that Kakashi should win, in my opinion. Eventhough that goes against the general placing of both characters.

My personal opinion is that I think Minato is more likely to be fast enough to set up an FTG when Kakashi doesnt use instant Kamui and probably wins more often than not. Especially with no knowledge.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 25, 2020)

Ludi said:


> I added this to my previous post.
> 
> I think Mad Scientist scores better on judging criteria (besides visuals as they were not to be taken into account). Especially persuasiveness.
> 
> ...



i think the Person who argued for Kakashi did a better job as well

my Perso opinion on the fight is as seen on panel FTG> kamui in speed
Thus Kakashi must loose . Someone with superior kamui usage lost in 2 exchanges Kakashi looses on the first exchange 

it could be biased or some might claim it is but Minato even mid kamui wrap Minato could get away this simple fact takes Kakashi only hope for victory away 

clone feints and everything else Kakashi has doesn’t help him. Since Minato touching Kakashi clone links him to Kakashi chakra thus he gets blitz with no possible chance of reacting when we got 

Obito who can phase couldn’t react , juubito who couldn’t avoid SM naruto who is like 4 tiers below juubito 

Anywayz just my view


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 25, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Those lines were present from when


These are the black lines I was referring to:

*Spoiler*: __ 











trocollo said:


> Well, for example Naruto jumping at Gaara from a tree in the CE to punch him wasn't shunshin even tho it covered a significant distance


I'm saying it can be an indicator, not necessarily always the case. Depends on other factors too such as how fast it looks and how perceptive and fast the characters involved in a scene are.



trocollo said:


> there is another difference, that is shunshin always has the character who casts the jutsu disappearing from its location and reappearing somewere else


Disappearing from a location and reappearing somewhere doesn't necessarily indicate Shunshin (CE Lee).

*Spoiler*: __ 









There are plenty of times where a character using Shunshin is visible to the reader, and there are plenty of cases where characters react to Shunshin.

*Spoiler*: __ 












In one of the scans above, we saw Naruto use Shunshin with a lined backdrop and small black lines on the edges of Naruto's cloak. Similarly, when KCM Naruto was lunging a Rasengan into Obito's face, we also saw a lined backdrop and similar black lines.

*Spoiler*: __ 









In contrast, when Naruto is running with a general speed, there is a clear and stark difference in the visuals on KCM Naruto (panels 6, 7, 9, 10, 11).

*Spoiler*: __ 









"Disappearing" is based on how the writer wants to convey a scene and, in terms of characters, is based on the perception speed / general speed of the characters involved in a given scene. For example, KCM Naruto's "faster" Shunshin didn't instantly get around A4 at all, even though he was shown using it first, whereas to the readers it looked like they disappeared. This is exactly what the  alludes to. If seen by an ordinary [character], it would seem as if the user has teleported. In reality — _this_ is the conjunction; it is implying _the same isn't true for non-ordinary characters_ — the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds. Shunshin is just really fast movement. Many characters can use it. Many characters can react to it. Certain characters are far better at using it.



trocollo said:


> Naruto's shunshin isn't always active, in his fight with A4 we see when he disappears and reappears, that's when he uses shunshin, his speed isn't equal, those moments of disappearances that are in tercepted by A4's moments of disappearance are when both of them used shunshin


Every time KCM Naruto tried to attack A4, he was using Shunshin (refer to scans above.)



trocollo said:


> In the first scan Naruto couldn't move his body, while in the second he's aware of what's happening, like with A4 fastest punch, he can use his shunshin but he didn't, who is different by he couldn't, in fact when he needs to use it he does so intecepting both Obito and Madara from


Him not being able to move his body in the first scan doesn't refute the point I made: Obito _physically_ dodged his desperate chakra arm (look at how fast and concentrated that chakra arm looks).

In the second, it doesn't make a difference whether or not he knew Gai was approaching; he still wouldn't risk _not_ moving his head. He can't use Shunshin to dodge because Obito was too fast. Tobirama could use Hiraishin almost immediately after having his initial attack dodged.



trocollo said:


> Naruto has to use everything he has at high-top level, surely also his speed, but shunshin isn't something you keep always active, it's a jutsu you decide to cast, KCM Naruto isn't in a permanent shunshin state is all I'm saying and we see when he uses shunshin by him disappearing from one place and reappearing in another one, it's a burst of speed superior to the speed displayed beforehand it





trocollo said:


> Because shunshin is a jutsu that you use one time, it's also showed at being telportation-like, the character disappears and reappears when it's used, it's not like Naruto activates a new form and now he's invisible cause he's moving too fast all the time, it's a normal jutsu that has a chakra cost


It's not that he is in a permanent state of Shunshin, but that he can repeatedly use it within a given battle. Against A4, he used it a total of _5 times_ (_2_ pairs _back-to-back_) in a matter of 3 chapters which were filled with a lot of talking, Bee occasionally taking the spotlight, and fast-paced action.



trocollo said:


> I remember Minato saying Obito's justu was better, but that doesn't mean that Kamui lets Obito move at shunshin-like speed, neither that Minato moves at shunshin like speed without FTG in his fight with Obito, even there we see when Minato uses shunshin, and that's when he saves Naruto and when he saves Kushina


These techniques are a part of these characters' speed. The distinction I was pointing out there is that in terms of this speed, which is how the manga conveys it (for example, when A4 talks about Minato, he isn't talking about Hiraishin-less Minato, he's talking about Minato as a whole):

Teen Obito with phasing was pretty much evenly matched with Hokage Minato with Hiraishin in terms of combat speed, movement speed, and spacetime usage.
KCM Naruto with Shunshin etc. surpassed Hokage Minato with Hiraishin.
Adult Rinnegan Obito made KCM Naruto with Shunshin etc. look like fodder, not just because of phasing, but also because of how physically fast he was (which is only to be expected with 15 years of growth).



trocollo said:


> He needed to be notified yep, so how you know Naruto used shunshin in the moment Obito attacked and not after?


How I know he used Shunshin:

To evade someone as fast as Obito who appeared from Naruto's blind side, he had to have moved _very_ fast.
A side-step jump like that, without Shunshin, wouldn't have sufficed.

The manner in which he moved resembles his 2nd Shunshin against A4.
The black lines are very visible as he's screeching on the ground in the following .
As he moved, he left a stream of chakra similar to his 1st and 4th flickers against A4.
When did he use Shunshin:

I think it's apparent that he would have used it ASAP, like almost immediately following his noticing of Obito.
We know that when Naruto , Obito was _barely_ through.
Yet Obito moved a distance further than Naruto.
Even if fatigue was relevant there, it still wouldn't have made a real difference, all things considered.



trocollo said:


> 1. Didn't he capture and reacted to KCM Naruto attacks?
> 2. But he kept up with Bee
> 3. He kept up with A, enpowering him and coordinating the weighted punch
> 4. I know, like A4 was stated to be the fastest ninja after Minato, I'd go with that
> ...



*Nagato.* He captured Naruto because he coordinated well with his Chameleon which grabbed Naruto (who was taken by surprise instead of immediately doing something about the situation), not necessarily because he's KCM tier in speed. Him reacting to KCM Naruto's telegraphed Rasengan with chakra arms by mentally putting up Preta's barrier doesn't say anything about his movement speed.
*Kisame.* Base Bee isn't KCM tier, and Kisame never showed movement speed on par with V1 Bee, only impressive striking speed. Kisame's DB3 speed was also a 4.
*Onoki.* That doesn't mean he can move that fast. Also, Deidara had a 4.5 and was relative to Onoki, while the Raikage is _easily_ faster than SM Jiraiya (4.5) who is relative to SM Naruto.
*Tsunade.* At most, WA Tsunade's a ~4.5-tier (given DB3 had her at a 3.5). Madara noted her to be slower than V1+ A4.
*Mei.* She showed nothing that puts her movement speed at KCM level.
*Gaara.* If you mean sand, then sure, Gaara's a given, but I'm primarily focused on physical movement speed.
*Mu.* Onoki doesn't have KCM levels of speed.
*Pain.* I think its the heaviness that weighs on KN6 which is why he would need a Rinnegan to be as fast, and a Sharingan to avoid tunnel vision. Also, Pain went into the forest so there isn't really conclusive proof Pain is > KN6 (if anything, KN6 is faster given the initial jump.) Regardless, Pain is no faster than SM Naruto who is substantially slower than KCM Naruto. KCM >> KN6. Pain moving no faster than PA Kakashi is more evidence that Pain isn't KCM tier.
*SM Jiraiya.* If Pain is ~ KCM tier, and SM Jiraiya is ~ Pain, then sure.
*Gengetsu.* Even if Gaara's sand is at KCM level, just because Gengetsu fought him doesn't necessarily mean he himself has KCM tier speed. Moreover, Gaara seemed to use desert sand instead of gourd sand on Joki Boi. Also, if one of Gaara's jutsu can move at KCM speed, what's wrong with one of Gengetsu's jutsu doing the same?
*Konan.* That was FKS Obito, and she never showed movement speed on his level. After all, they weren't even fighting on solid ground for a large part. And in the end, when they were on more or less equal ground, a wounded Obito blitzed her anyway. And if you're talking about her paper which she had a ton of, even that's debatable.
*Deidara.* Not necessarily. He had a 4.5 DB speed.
*Kakuzu.* He kept up with Kakashi due to jutsu and tactics. For example, by shooting a massive fire storm at him, Kakashi was forced to _jump_ and try to put it out. Using the _smoke_, Kakuzu jumped in, but he still at short-mid range. So he then used _tendrils_ to capture a Kakashi in mid-air. Kakuzu hasn't displayed Kakashi-level speed. Also, Hidan kept up with Kakashi, that doesn't mean they have equal movement speed.
*Hidan.* WA Kakashi is faster than IA Kakashi because his chakra most likely started growing stronger at  . Poetically, in  his name Kakashi of the Sharingan, copier of 1000 techniques, he ended up finally becoming a  wielder of the gifted Kekkei Genkai. Chakra becoming stronger is the most likely explanation to why MS Sasuke could move on par with V1/V1+ A4.
*Hebi Sasuke.* Hebi Sasuke and Deidara don't have KCM speed feats or portrayal or DB stats.
*Zabuza.* He has DB speed of 4. He hasn't shown any feats of moving on par with early WA Kakashi.
*Haku.* That wasn't Kakashi's fastest attack speed as he didn't use Shunshin and was trying to stay stealthy. Haku also has a DB speed of 4. Haku doesn't have KCM speed.



trocollo said:


> Not sure what's your definition of parallels and how you think they validate a speed comparison


What I mean is, it's not as simple as "X fought Z, Y fought Z, therefore X is ~ Y in terms of movement speed."



trocollo said:


> I know, like A4 was stated to be the fastest ninja after Minato, I'd go with that


A fast and proud character without knowledge of how fast everyone is, called himself the fastest. Evidently, his statement wasn't entirely accurate. For example, in terms of how the manga depicts speed, Rinnegan Obito and 7G Gai are both indisputably faster than him.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 25, 2020)

I am not part of this thread @Mad Scientist
How did KCM naruto surpass Minato hirashin ?
When the only time he was compared to Minato hirashin Yamato said he wasn’t on 
that Level yet


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 25, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> I am not part of this thread @Mad Scientist
> How did KCM naruto surpass Minato hirashin ?
> When the only time he was compared to Minato hirashin Yamato said he wasn’t on
> that Level yet


KCM Naruto outspeeded a punch that Minato wouldn't have been able to react to. KCM Naruto also has a much more accomplished arsenal.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 26, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> KCM Naruto outspeeded a punch that Minato wouldn't have been able to react to. KCM Naruto also has a much more accomplished arsenal.



Your statement directly contradicts Kishi manga
As A never claimed he got faster and the entire parallel was to claim they dodged the same punch . Though if you believe A got faster we gonna need scans to support this

yes KCM > Minato no doubt
However not in the department of speed considering even in DB4 Kishi still calls Minato the fastest which makes sense

To analyse who is faster do this
They both start at point A and have to travel from A , B then C . Who do you think gets to those 3 points first using speed ?

it’s obvious it’s Minato so naruto could never have surpassed Minato speed which is the only comparison that was made between the 2. As even SM naruto is most likely stronger character


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## trocollo (Aug 26, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> These are the black lines I was referring to:
> *Spoiler*:


Those are also not an idication of shunshin but of a  



Mad Scientist said:


> I'm saying it can be an indicator, not necessarily always the case. Depends on other factors too such as how fast it looks and how perceptive and fast the characters involved in a scene are.


This way it doesn't help, lets go to the istances and decide if it's shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> Disappearing from a location and reappearing somewhere doesn't necessarily indicate Shunshin (CE Lee).
> *Spoiler*:


Yes, but I think disappearing and reappering is a lot more specific since only Lee and Gai are capable of a physical movement similiar to shunshin, while evryone can jump a considerable distance



Mad Scientist said:


> There are plenty of times where a character using Shunshin is visible to the reader, and there are plenty of cases where characters react to Shunshin.
> *Spoiler*:


He used shunshin to close the distance but the attack was physical, the shunshin has been used in between the end of the precedent panel and the start of this one

Both Naruto and Sai put up a guard, was more difficoult for Naruto than Sai since Madara first attacked him first so Sai knew what to do, assuming this was the problem with this panel, other than this what happens here is pretty forced, as SM Naruto strong body was no more, and Hashirama lost the ability to defend himself



Mad Scientist said:


>


Naruto always disappears and reappears? Can see that at the start, the middle and at the end with them disappearing from Bee



Mad Scientist said:


> In one of the scans above, we saw Naruto use Shunshin with a lined backdrop and small black lines on the edges of Naruto's cloak. Similarly, when KCM Naruto was lunging a Rasengan into Obito's face, we also saw a lined backdrop and similar black lines.
> *Spoiler*:


Lined backdrop isn't an idication of shunshin, it's all over fast movements, the difference from the panels is that the one on the left is a frame of a  and the one on the right is in slow motion, Naruto shunshin is also   compared to Obito, who's normal as shunshin is superior to physical movement, slower characters can easily outspeed faster ones if they cast shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> In contrast, when Naruto is running with a general speed, there is a clear and stark difference in the visuals on KCM Naruto (panels 6, 7, 9, 10, 11).
> *Spoiler*:


Did Bee fly away from Base A punch at shunshin-like speed in the same page? Those are speed lines, not an idication of shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> "Disappearing" is based on how the writer wants to convey a scene and, in terms of characters, is based on the perception speed / general speed of the characters involved in a given scene. For example, KCM Naruto's "faster" Shunshin didn't instantly get around A4 at all, even though he was shown using it first, whereas to the readers it looked like they disappeared. This is exactly what the  alludes to. If seen by an ordinary [character], it would seem as if the user has teleported. In reality — _this_ is the conjunction; it is implying _the same isn't true for non-ordinary characters_ — the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds. Shunshin is just really fast movement. Many characters can use it. Many characters can react to it. Certain characters are far better at using it.


Naruto final shunshin aganist A4 did get him instantly around A, he reappears there, without using that he wouldn't even been able to block, but with shunshin he moved away at insane speed
Many can react to it doesn't make sense after it says that it's in the ordinary seeing it as teleportation, neither the shunshin on an ordinary ninja is as fast a the shunshin of A and Naruto



Mad Scientist said:


> Every time KCM Naruto tried to attack A4, he was using Shunshin (refer to scans above.)


Not sure if you changed scans but Naruto wasn't attacking A4, he was trying to run away from him to get to the battlefiled, the one attacking was A4 so maybe you meant that, anyway ok but what's this for in relation to what you quoted? I said he isn't under constant shunshin and we see when it's used



Mad Scientist said:


> Him not being able to move his body in the first scan doesn't refute the point I made: Obito _physically_ dodged his desperate chakra arm (look at how fast and concentrated that chakra arm looks).
> 
> In the second, it doesn't make a difference whether or not he knew Gai was approaching; he still wouldn't risk _not_ moving his head. He can't use Shunshin to dodge because Obito was too fast. Tobirama could use Hiraishin almost immediately after having his initial attack dodged.


True, misread that, but this is about shunshin not chakra arms

Why would he risk it? Obito already phased trough his attack
Obito noraml speed is slower than shunshin, Naruto intercepted him from the distance with it



Mad Scientist said:


> It's not that he is in a permanent state of Shunshin, but that he can repeatedly use it within a given battle. Against A4, he used it a total of _5 times_ (_2_ pairs _back-to-back_) in a matter of 3 chapters which were filled with a lot of talking, Bee occasionally taking the spotlight, and fast-paced action.


Then where's the problem? Naruto isn't moving at shunshin-like speed unless he casts shunshin
You can post the panels of the fight with Obito where you think he casted shunshin and we see where we agree and disagree



Mad Scientist said:


> These techniques are a part of these characters' speed. The distinction I was pointing out there is that in terms of this speed, which is how the manga conveys it (for example, when A4 talks about Minato, he isn't talking about Hiraishin-less Minato, he's talking about Minato as a whole):
> 
> Teen Obito with phasing was pretty much evenly matched with Hokage Minato with Hiraishin in terms of combat speed, movement speed, and spacetime usage.
> KCM Naruto with Shunshin etc. surpassed Hokage Minato with Hiraishin.
> Adult Rinnegan Obito made KCM Naruto with Shunshin etc. look like fodder, not just because of phasing, but also because of how physically fast he was (which is only to be expected with 15 years of growth).


Yes and going by the general concept of speed Obito isn't faster than Minato, Kamui being a better ninjusto doesn't mean Obito is faster

- Not really, Minato was able to evade him with no knowledge while the first time Minato made his FTG attack Obito got tagged and marked, then tagged again right away losing the fox and retreats
- Shunshin is slower than FTG
- Mostly because Naruto's arsenal got restricted for no reasons, multiple shadow clones would've helped, but still he didn't make him look like fodder, but yeah 1vs1 he would've won



Mad Scientist said:


> How I know he used Shunshin:
> 
> To evade someone as fast as Obito who appeared from Naruto's blind side, he had to have moved _very_ fast.
> A side-step jump like that, without Shunshin, wouldn't have sufficed.
> ...


I also think that was shunshin, but ok

Using it ASAP doesn't help, imagine him using shunshin ASAP from A4 punch, that doesn't let him evade that A4 will just continue to where Naruto is, it's like you're running towards me and I jump 1 meter to the left, what do you do? Continue running where I was or shift a bit to reach my new position? But, same scenario, now I wait that you're really close to me, and jump 1 meter to the right, you'll not be able to change your momentum accordly to get me and it'll result in you stopping your charge
That's why we can't know when Naruto shifted away, he doesn't have to do it when Obito still hasn't attacked, also what's the stake?
He did, like A4 moved farter from Naruto but Naruto still evaded his punch outspeeding him



Mad Scientist said:


> *Nagato.* He captured Naruto because he coordinated well with his Chameleon which grabbed Naruto (who was taken by surprise instead of immediately doing something about the situation), not necessarily because he's KCM tier in speed. Him reacting to KCM Naruto's telegraphed Rasengan with chakra arms by mentally putting up Preta's barrier doesn't say anything about his movement speed.
> 
> *Kisame.* Base Bee isn't KCM tier, and Kisame never showed movement speed on par with V1 Bee, only impressive striking speed. Kisame's DB3 speed was also a 4.
> 
> ...


This now has become useless tho, we made a distiction with shunshin so we're going to see when in WA Naruto used shunshin to compare speed, I thought you had Naruto constantly moving at shunshin speed



Mad Scientist said:


> What I mean is, it's not as simple as "X fought Z, Y fought Z, therefore X is ~ Y in terms of movement speed."


Yeah I've seen from the above that you have mixed methods, would not be bad to adress them, but I'm more concerned in resolving the core problem, as long as we agree on finding a shunshin istance the implication I started with the poits above isn't valid anymore since it was based on KCM Naruto always keeping the same speed



Mad Scientist said:


> A fast and proud character without knowledge of how fast everyone is, called himself the fastest. Evidently, his statement wasn't entirely accurate. For example, in terms of how the manga depicts speed, Rinnegan Obito and 7G Gai are both indisputably faster than him.


Different views on how things are depicted both for statements and for speed, but again this is not part of the problem, what we need to solve now is when you think Naruto used shunshin aganist Obito in WA to have our feat side


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 26, 2020)

A4 considered himself the fastest without having any knowledge on obito or Gai for that matter so he isn’t wrong in that respect as these 2 hidden gems were just that 

it stands to reason Gai might have used 6G more often in war than 7G based on respective damage to the body so the only Info A might have had is on 6G gai 

Which makes sense as all feats point to V2 A being faster than 6G gai


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Your statement directly contradicts Kishi manga
> As A never claimed he got faster and the entire parallel was to claim they dodged the same punch .


WA Kakashi never claimed his MS got stronger even though it clearly did.



> Though if you believe A got faster we gonna need scans to support this


Sure.


*Spoiler*: __ 




Roughly _15 years_   Raikage, a young Ay would _almost_ blitz Minato.

​

A4’s  and build starkly improve over a decade.






​
​It's clear that A4's top-speed >> whatever top-speed young Ay had.






MHA massive fan said:


> yes KCM > Minato no doubt
> However not in the department of speed considering even in DB4 Kishi still calls Minato the fastest which makes sense


"Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed"

Clearly an exaggeration, as not all ninja praised him. Obviously, still noteworthy.
Even if it were true then, it isn't necessarily true in Naruto's time.
Manga > DB.
God-tiers like Juubito with just taijutsu would casually stomp Edo KCM Minato. 7G Gai with just taijutsu had speed capable of pressuring Juudara.
V2 A4 is ~ KCM Naruto. 



MHA massive fan said:


> To analyse who is faster do this
> They both start at point A and have to travel from A , B then C . Who do you think gets to those 3 points first using speed ?
> 
> it’s obvious it’s Minato so naruto could never have surpassed Minato speed which is the only comparison that was made between the 2. As even SM naruto is most likely stronger character


By the time Minato throws his kunai and it reaches halfway, KCM Naruto will already have reached B and would be starting to move towards C.

SM Naruto is most likely stronger than who?


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Those are also not an idication of shunshin but of a


It very likely is for KCM Naruto in high pressure situations; compare  (no Shunshin, fast movement) to  (fast movement, Shunshin).



trocollo said:


> Yes, but I think disappearing and reappering is a lot more specific since only Lee and Gai are capable of a physical movement similiar to shunshin, while evryone can jump a considerable distance


I agree that disappearing and reappearing can indicate Shunshin, it's just not the only tell.



trocollo said:


> He used shunshin to close the distance but the attack was physical, the shunshin has been used in between the end of the precedent panel and the start of this one


Shunshin vitalizes the entire body. It can be used while running, and it can be used while striking.



trocollo said:


> Both Naruto and Sai put up a guard, was more difficoult for Naruto than Sai since Madara first attacked him first so Sai knew what to do, assuming this was the problem with this panel, other than this what happens here is pretty forced, as SM Naruto strong body was no more, and Hashirama lost the ability to defend himself


Doesn't change the fact he used Shunshin and it was both reacted to and visible to the reader.



trocollo said:


> Naruto always disappears and reappears? Can see that at the start, the middle and at the end with them disappearing from Bee


I think you are misattributing "disappearance" to KCM Naruto's initial movement. For example, both in the  and  Naruto , we are shown that they kick off the ground with their foot first. This is natural, since Shunshin doesn't just automatically move someone from A to B — they don't disappear like FTG users — it's just speeding up movement really fast.



trocollo said:


> Lined backdrop isn't an idication of shunshin, it's all over fast movements, the difference from the panels is that the one on the left is a frame of a  and the one on the right is in slow motion,


Lined backdrop can be an indication.

It isn't a frame of stop motion; it's an illustration of Naruto just about finishing movement,  . It matches with his other Shunshin uses.



> Naruto shunshin is also   compared to Obito, who's normal as shunshin is superior to physical movement, slower characters can easily outspeed faster ones if they cast shunshin


I'm not sure what you mean?



trocollo said:


> Did Bee fly away from Base A punch at shunshin-like speed in the same page? Those are speed lines, not an idication of shunshin


He certainly flew very fast. Black lines can still be an indicator of Shunshin.

Lines can mean different things in different situations. For example, Naruto is running  without Shunshin and there are backdrop lines, but there are also backdrop lines . The difference is that, in the rightmost examples, there are _both_ the the backdrop lines and small black lines, which makes it really clear Shunshin was being used in both of those scenes. Characters can be using  even  any .



trocollo said:


> Naruto final shunshin aganist A4 did get him instantly around A, he reappears there, without using that he wouldn't even been able to block, but with shunshin he moved away at insane speed
> Many can react to it doesn't make sense after it says that it's in the ordinary seeing it as teleportation, neither the shunshin on an ordinary ninja is as fast a the shunshin of A and Naruto


I was referring to his 2nd Shunshin, the "faster this time!" one.



trocollo said:


> Not sure if you changed scans but Naruto wasn't attacking A4, he was trying to run away from him to get to the battlefiled, the one attacking was A4 so maybe you meant that, anyway ok but what's this for in relation to what you quoted? I said he isn't under constant shunshin and we see when it's used


I know Naruto wanted to enter the battlefield, but his method was to prove he was strong enough by attacking A4, which is why the first thing he does is attempt to blitz Ay. Him saying "faster this time" implies he was going to try to tag Ay again, just faster.



trocollo said:


> Then where's the problem? Naruto isn't moving at shunshin-like speed unless he casts shunshin
> You can post the panels of the fight with Obito where you think he casted shunshin and we see where we agree and disagree


KCM Naruto was using Shunshin repeatedly against A4 and Obito, because he can and because he needed to. Obito was moving at a speed >= KCM Naruto.


*Spoiler*: _Where KCM Naruto was using Shunshin against Obito_ 














trocollo said:


> True, misread that, but this is about shunshin not chakra arms


If Obito can physically dodge such an attack, he is _fast_. This adds to the idea Obito is an opponent that Naruto has to use his high-top speeds to even keep up with him.



> Why would he risk it? Obito already phased trough his attack
> Obito noraml speed is slower than shunshin, Naruto intercepted him from the distance with it


I'm saying it would still be unrealistic for KCM Naruto to _not_ try to move his head or use Shunshin if he could, in order to dodge Obito. He couldn't dodge because Obito was too fast.



trocollo said:


> - Not really, Minato was able to evade him with no knowledge while the first time Minato made his FTG attack Obito got tagged and marked, then tagged again right away losing the fox and retreats
> - Shunshin is slower than FTG
> - Mostly because Naruto's arsenal got restricted for no reasons, multiple shadow clones would've helped, but still he didn't make him look like fodder, but yeah 1vs1 he would've won


*1.* They were comparable in  . They were comparable in  speed. Minato stated Obito's spacetime jutsu was  than his own. Minato confirmed the battle (of speed) would be decided in an .

*2.* Shunshin _is_ slower than Hiraishin, but that doesn't mean characters can't react to Hiraishin-based movements (Bee, Bee again, A4 implied, Juubito, SMR Madara...). And it means nothing if the character can't mentally activate the jutsu in time. KCM Naruto outspeeded a punch that Minato wouldn't have been able to react to. KCM Naruto also has a much more accomplished arsenal.

*3.* Naruto's arsenal wasn't restricted. He just didn't have anything that could be useful outside of small attacks (like Rasengan and mini TBB) aided by chakra arms and fast movement. Multiple shadow clones wouldn't have helped since Obito was capable of casually negging KCM Naruto's clone and KCM Naruto himself back-to-back. That kind of skill results in things like sick Kimimaro trashing 1000 KN0s. Naruto's battle against Obito can be seen as an echo of Minato's battle with Obito — now it is KCM Naruto's turn to play the battle of speed against the threat Minato prophesied. No need for glamour. And he did     .



trocollo said:


> I also think that was shunshin, but ok
> 
> Using it ASAP doesn't help, imagine him using shunshin ASAP from A4 punch, that doesn't let him evade that A4 will just continue to where Naruto is, it's like you're running towards me and I jump 1 meter to the left, what do you do? Continue running where I was or shift a bit to reach my new position? But, same scenario, now I wait that you're really close to me, and jump 1 meter to the right, you'll not be able to change your momentum accordly to get me and it'll result in you stopping your charge
> That's why we can't know when Naruto shifted away, he doesn't have to do it when Obito still hasn't attacked, also what's the stake?
> He did, like A4 moved farter from Naruto but Naruto still evaded his punch outspeeding him


My mistake, for some reason I thought he was about to pull out a chakra receiver, but of course there would be no need for that.

I get that we can't know for certain when Naruto started moving, but given Obito's speed and how big a threat he was, Naruto most likely used it shortly after noticing Obito's presence. He could probably predict that Obito would be coming straight down for him (a reasonable and logical assumption), so it's plausible he side-stepped as soon as possible. Given that they started moving presumably at a similar time, Obito moving a further distance demonstrates that he had the faster speed there.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 27, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> WA Kakashi never claimed his MS got stronger even though it clearly did.
> 
> 
> Sure.
> ...



SM naruto likely stronger than Minato overall

now as to the Kunai question note Minato can throw 2 Kunai to B and C now by your statement when KCM is half way through B so would the Kunai . Thus by the time naruto reaches B both Kunai will be at B and C
Thus Minato will win this race as him moving to B and C would happen much quicker than naruto ability to use shushin to get to point C from B

it’s this very simple fact that makes Minato faster than A or in fact the fastest according to DB 4

I don’t believe KCM naruto shushin is twice as fast as Minato ability to throw Kunai like you believe . We have seen weapon speed even surprise God tier like Momoshiki . If Minato Kunai throw was as slow as you believe he would be slower than A constantly . A didn’t call Minato unsurpassable because Minato can dodge his punch . Nor did he claim to be slower for this reason. 
We also have seen for some mad reason 
Minato Kunai being Able to cover the distance of Juubi in what was remarked to be a speed feat for Minato 

Furthermore the fastest weapon throw in our world is about 16m/s while usain bolt runs at 12m/s. Weapon Throw is always faster than shushin


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 27, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> now as to the Kunai question note Minato can throw 2 Kunai to B and C now by your statement when KCM is half way through B so would the Kunai . Thus by the time naruto reaches B both Kunai will be at B and C
> Thus Minato will win this race as him moving to B and C would happen much quicker than naruto ability to use shushin to get to point C from B


Let's say that A - B - C spans a length of 2.0 units of some distance.

By the time Minato's Kunai has reached 0.5, according to my hypothetical statement Naruto will have already reached 1.0 _and_ would already be starting to move towards C (i.e. you can think of it as 1.1 for example), so by the time Minato's kunai reaches 1.0, he will have to use FTG, while Naruto would already have reached 2.0. Successive FTGs aren't instant either, which is why Juubito could blitz KCM Minato's arm. And if I'm being technical about this, we're assuming here that the act of Minato physically throwing his kunai is as fast as the act of KCM Naruto activating Shunshin or whatnot, but this isn't necessarily the case, as technically, that is not only false but also would require prep. And the manga views things like that the same way, which is why Zabuza tried to stop Kakashi from unleashing his sharingan. The Raikage didn't _have_ to let Minato take his kunai out of his pouch and throw them, which is something Minato will of course have to do here. I hope I am not being pedantic here, correct me if I'm wrong.



MHA massive fan said:


> If Minato Kunai throw was as slow as you believe he would be slower than A constantly .


No because A) he can use tags he's planted before/during battles and B) he can use suspended kunai C) he can tag characters himself.



MHA massive fan said:


> Minato Kunai being Able to cover the distance of Juubi in what was remarked to be a speed feat for Minato


A scan or a reference would be useful.



MHA massive fan said:


> Furthermore the fastest weapon throw in our world is about 16m/s while usain bolt runs at 12m/s. Weapon Throw is always faster than shushin


First of all, this logic is flawed. Shunshin >> Running. , vehicles that move far faster than Usain Bolt are observable.

Second, it's not necessarily always the case as shown in the manga. For example, A3 could dodge KCM Naruto's FRS twice, but was blitzed by his Shunshin. Sasuke could react to a hundred shuriken from Itachi, but was blitzed by his Shunshin.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 27, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Let's say that A - B - C spans a length of 2.0 units of some distance.
> 
> By the time Minato's Kunai has reached 0.5, according to my hypothetical statement Naruto will have already reached 1.0 _and_ would already be starting to move towards C (i.e. you can think of it as 1.1 for example), so by the time Minato's kunai reaches 1.0, he will have to use FTG, while Naruto would already have reached 2.0. Successive FTGs aren't instant either, which is why Juubito could blitz KCM Minato's arm. And if I'm being technical about this, we're assuming here that the act of Minato physically throwing his kunai is as fast as the act of KCM Naruto activating Shunshin or whatnot, but this isn't necessarily the case, as technically, that is not only false but also would require prep. And the manga views things like that the same way, which is why Zabuza tried to stop Kakashi from unleashing his sharingan. The Raikage didn't _have_ to let Minato take his kunai out of his pouch and throw them, which is something Minato will of course have to do here. I hope I am not being pedantic here, correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> ...



A4 didn’t let Minato throw those Kunai he could do nothing to stop him from doing so. Rushing in before Minato threw his Kunai won’t have helped because A4 could not hit Minato before Minato got grab a single Kunai .thus Minato would always have blind sided him

sadly on my phone so can’t reference Minato Kunai feat but it’s when the 4 hokage reached the war scene and tobirama commented Minato acts fast as he had already set up Kunai all around the juubi which naturally those Kunai were not there before the war started which means while keeping up with the other kage the guy had time to throw Kunai all around the Juubi . Now considering how large the juubi is that’s immensely impressive

is your assertion then that KCM naruto shushin is twice as fast as a ninja ability to throw a Kunai?

if so what’s your view on Adult sasuke using a thrown weapon to get behind Momoshiki ( A god tier ) vs just using shushin if shushin was quicker ?

this is also seen by how juubimadara and juubito both with knowledge of hirahsin didn’t move away from thrown Kunai 

in fact I haven’t seen in 700 chapters a single person see a thrown weapon and shushin away from it casually. More often than not people barely dodge or block accordingly they don’t just shushin away. If shushin was quicker they would 

now as to Minato always being faster than A because you assume every scene and every battle they had he would have had Kunai around the area before the fight started is a little false . Minato could not possibly know every location of every encounter they would have before hand

nor would A always have attacked Minato first . Don’t you think even if A stood there Minato would have just gone ahead and attacked him resulting in the same thing we saw in manga ?


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## Trojan (Aug 27, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> KCM Naruto outspeeded a punch that Minato wouldn't have been able to react to. KCM Naruto also has a much more accomplished arsenal.


So, why did Kakashi compare BM Naruto to Minato as well? Or do you think BM didn't provide any additional speed? 



2:42


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## trocollo (Aug 27, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> It very likely is for KCM Naruto in high pressure situations; compare  (no Shunshin, fast movement) to  (fast movement, Shunshin).


How you manage possibilities tho? We need to decide, not to say it's likely beacause it's possible to create a connection, what you are presenting doesn't have to be a rule and doesn't create problems if it's broken cause it doesn't exist in the first place
This problem is already solved by consistency, we know shunshin is so fast to make the user disappear and we've seen KCM Naruto using it, best you can get from high pressure scenes is that some low level shunshin was being used, but it's clearly not on par with the real deal who has a different effect



Mad Scientist said:


> I agree that disappearing and reappearing can indicate Shunshin, it's just not the only tell.


I mean there are slower shunshin like the one Kakashi, Sasuke and Sarada use for the chidori, but the regular one is fast enough to have your enemy disappearing away, like when in the CE Kabuto and that guy from the sand disappeared from Kakashi and Gai to reatreat and no one was surprised of that, cause it's a normal thing
Also what about bursts of speed then? That's also an indication, we have Naruto covering great distances aganist the enemy crossing a small one and secondary observers losing track of them, who is different than fighting fast, the speed used there doesn't even match



Mad Scientist said:


> Shunshin vitalizes the entire body. It can be used while running, and it can be used while striking.


It can be used in any situation as long as you're able to cast it, when you cast it you reach the designated stop point for the jutsu at super high speed, or if you meant that you can use a partial shunshin, Idk, the justu is for the foot speed, you can punch while doing it like A4 does, but you're adding your normal punch speed to your shunshin speed



Mad Scientist said:


> Doesn't change the fact he used Shunshin and it was both reacted to and visible to the reader.


And we just see the jumps, him being reacted by SM Naruto doesn't seem a problem to me, actually seems even strange as Naruto should've dodged that, Sai is less consistent since he doesn't have good reactions feats, but i think the problem here is putting SM Naruto and Sai on the same level



Mad Scientist said:


> I think you are misattributing "disappearance" to KCM Naruto's initial movement. For example, both in the  and  Naruto , we are shown that they kick off the ground with their foot first. This is natural, since Shunshin doesn't just automatically move someone from A to B — they don't disappear like FTG users — it's just speeding up movement really fast.


It is semi-automatic, ninja won't be able to use it otherwise, the big majority of ninja can't react to the shunshin speeds, that's why it's used as a retreat tactic and not to attack, it's a death sentence running at the enemy like that, take Kakashi, even with a partial shunshin he was going to be killed by the Iwa ninja cause the latter could foretell that Kakashi was going straight to him, as Minato said, Kakashi couldn't percive his counterattack because of the speed



Mad Scientist said:


> Lined backdrop can be an indication.
> 
> It isn't a frame of stop motion; it's an illustration of Naruto just about finishing movement,  . It matches with his other Shunshin uses.


But "can be an indication" isn't enough we need an actual indication, and to do that, we need to enter in the specific of an istance, so can't you just post the istances of the fight with Obito where you think Naruto used shunshin?
-add on- Actually you did it after so ok

It's fine either way, it was just to say that there were lined backdrop in a shunshin so my bad, a description there wasn't necessary



Mad Scientist said:


> I'm not sure what you mean?


That if Naruto was using shunshin in the second panel you posted we would have seen him flicking aka not seeing him or seen a flash of light



Mad Scientist said:


> He certainly flew very fast. Black lines can still be an indicator of Shunshin.
> 
> Lines can mean different things in different situations. For example, Naruto is running  without Shunshin and there are backdrop lines, but there are also backdrop lines . The difference is that, in the rightmost examples, there are _both_ the the backdrop lines and small black lines, which makes it really clear Shunshin was being used in both of those scenes. Characters can be using  even  any .


Same as above, can=/=must, discusing this in general doesn't offer a solution for either side

The problem is them not being a proof, their combination isn't dedicated to shunshin as you showed that they're not related by shunshin being also present when they aren't there, it's a visual effect used at discrection of how Kishi wants to make the panel cool, it's not a visula effect reserved to shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> I was referring to his 2nd Shunshin, the "faster this time!" one.


Ah ok, tho it's normal that A4 can react to it, I'm not saying no one can, neither I'm saying that disappearing means literal teleportation, but the visual effect used to rapresent it



Mad Scientist said:


> I know Naruto wanted to enter the battlefield, but his method was to prove he was strong enough by attacking A4, which is why the first thing he does is attempt to blitz Ay. Him saying "faster this time" implies he was going to try to tag Ay again, just faster.


Naruto never tried to attack A4, first thing he does is attemept to run past them, A4 is in front of him and he jumps how you get that he tried to blitz him? Second time goes to the side and A4 intercepts him again



Mad Scientist said:


> KCM Naruto was using Shunshin repeatedly against A4 and Obito, because he can and because he needed to. Obito was moving at a speed >= KCM Naruto.
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Where KCM Naruto was using Shunshin against Obito_


Thanks, but they seem fair to me, in the first and third one Obito didn't react to Naruto's shunshin but to the attacks that followed it, in the second there wasn't a shunshin, they just jumped on the rocks, I get that the jump animation is silimiar to the Madara's one but the distortion to their bodies isn't, we even see Gai doing the same thing, last one Obito is the attacker so he didn't react to Naruto's shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> If Obito can physically dodge such an attack, he is _fast_. This adds to the idea Obito is an opponent that Naruto has to use his high-top speeds to even keep up with him.


And stops being consistent cause if Naruto needs shunshin to keep up with him then exchanges couldn't happen as Obito would be a telporting god who trolls Naruto everytime he isn't moving at his shunshin speed, I 'm not saying Obito isn't fast, I'm making a distiction from the regular fast and from the shunshin fast



Mad Scientist said:


> I'm saying it would still be unrealistic for KCM Naruto to _not_ try to move his head or use Shunshin if he could, in order to dodge Obito. He couldn't dodge because Obito was too fast.


If Naruto casted shunshin he would get away, in regular speed they were similiar as seen in the exchange itself, so a burst of speed gets him out, he just didn't use it, it can be unrealistic for characters not doing something that we thought would be logical to do but this happens everytime



Mad Scientist said:


> *1.* They were comparable in  . They were comparable in  speed. Minato stated Obito's spacetime jutsu was  than his own. Minato confirmed the battle (of speed) would be decided in an .
> 
> *2.* Shunshin _is_ slower than Hiraishin, but that doesn't mean characters can't react to Hiraishin-based movements (Bee, Bee again, A4 implied, Juubito, SMR Madara...). And it means nothing if the character can't mentally activate the jutsu in time. KCM Naruto outspeeded a punch that Minato wouldn't have been able to react to. KCM Naruto also has a much more accomplished arsenal.
> 
> *3.* Naruto's arsenal wasn't restricted. He just didn't have anything that could be useful outside of small attacks (like Rasengan and mini TBB) aided by chakra arms and fast movement. Multiple shadow clones wouldn't have helped since Obito was capable of casually negging KCM Naruto's clone and KCM Naruto himself back-to-back. That kind of skill results in things like sick Kimimaro trashing 1000 KN0s. Naruto's battle against Obito can be seen as an echo of Minato's battle with Obito — now it is KCM Naruto's turn to play the battle of speed against the threat Minato prophesied. No need for glamour. And he did     .


1. Better in what tho? Not in speed, it was better cause it didn't need marks; and it was decided in an istant, no problems with that

2. Shunshin also needs to be mentally activated; Naruto outspeeded the same punch, A4 said it and even if that wasn't enough Tsunade and Bee even think thogeter of Naruto being like the yellow flash, Idk what Kishi should have done to make it even more clear

3. But Obito isn't able to attack while he defends himself, multiple shadow clones help a lot there, along with blidsides to get Obito the moment he is attacking, like in Naruto vs Menma
Prolly we have a different definition to make one look like fodder, I think of it more like Madara vs the fodders in the alliance



Mad Scientist said:


> My mistake, for some reason I thought he was about to pull out a chakra receiver, but of course there would be no need for that.
> 
> I get that we can't know for certain when Naruto started moving, but given Obito's speed and how big a threat he was, Naruto most likely used it shortly after noticing Obito's presence. He could probably predict that Obito would be coming straight down for him (a reasonable and logical assumption), so it's plausible he side-stepped as soon as possible. Given that they started moving presumably at a similar time, Obito moving a further distance demonstrates that he had the faster speed there.


I get that you want to say that doing it the moment of notice is better cause Obito is a danger, but there is the problem of dodging it said above, plus going like this break down the shunshin in the middle, why would Obito continue his attack if Naruto is already out of range, what reason he has to pummel the ground like that? He was finishing the attack, like A4 was when he was at max speed and broke the rocks behind Naruto, the way to dodge is to do that when you need to, doing it before that does't create a speed scene or an effective evasion
Tho without further information we can't really be sure of how exactly the events unfolded in that panel


----------



## Mad Scientist (Aug 27, 2020)

trocollo said:


> How you manage possibilities tho? We need to decide, not to say it's likely beacause it's possible to create a connection, what you are presenting doesn't have to be a rule and doesn't create problems if it's broken cause it doesn't exist in the first place


Well, by considering everything.

Lined backdrop → potential indicator
Small black lines → potential indicator
"How fast characters look to the reader" → potential indicator
Speed relative to each other = factor to consider
Other contextual clues = factor to consider
 → _very_ strong potential indicator

KCM Naruto has already established what his Shunshin looks like, and what his non-Shunshin looks like, so this is a good baseline to use to determine what's what, as after all, evidently, what people deem as Shunshin or not can be subjective. What I've been trying to do is evaluate the differences are objectively as possible (so, I'm not just saying "it looks fast, therefore it's Shunshin"), and what I've found is that there are certain commonalities that helps determine whether or not he is using Shunshin in a given scene.



> This problem is already solved by consistency, we know shunshin is so fast to make the user disappear and we've seen KCM Naruto using it, best you can get from high pressure scenes is that some low level shunshin was being used, but it's clearly not on par with the real deal who has a different effect


Make the user disappear from whose perspective? It might look to _us_ that characters are disappearing, thought even that isn't always the case as we've seen characters use Shunshin but are still visible in the frame, but the characters themselves can react to and keep up with each other. We've even seen characters disappear but they did not use Shunshin at all. These distinctions are important because characters that have a similar speed can _look as if_ they are not using Shunshin merely because the author is capturing their movement as they're heading towards each other (e.g. Sasuke vs A4), even though they _may very well be_.

And if its consistency that is needed, note the paragraphs above.

I'm not sure what you mean by real deal. Every time KCM Naruto tried to blitz A4, those were all real. Naruto just wasn't skilled enough to achieve a Shunshin fast enough to dodge A4, until the end.



trocollo said:


> I mean there are slower shunshin like the one Kakashi, Sasuke and Sarada use for the chidori,


Scans?



> but the regular one is fast enough to have your enemy disappearing away, like when in the CE Kabuto and that guy from the sand disappeared from Kakashi and Gai to reatreat and no one was surprised of that, cause it's a normal thing


That's not the kind of Shunshin I'm referring to though. That's a variant.



> Also what about bursts of speed then? That's also an indication, we have Naruto covering great distances aganist the enemy crossing a small one and secondary observers losing track of them, who is different than fighting fast, the speed used there doesn't even match


Well the DB says that the amount of chakra used up differs depending on the distance and elevation of the stopping point in comparison to the starting point. We know that SM Naruto, for example, was fresh at the start and was a huge elevation distance away the Asura Path. One or more of such factors would have played a part in that blitz; SM Naruto can't use Shunshin to blitz characters like that when they're not far from each other and/or the elevation isn't high and/or if he doesn't prep/start fresh, given that he didn't.



trocollo said:


> It can be used in any situation as long as you're able to cast it, when you cast it you reach the designated stop point for the jutsu at super high speed, or if you meant that you can use a partial shunshin, Idk, the justu is for the foot speed, you can punch while doing it like A4 does, but you're adding your normal punch speed to your shunshin speed


I don't think the stopping point is a set thing, it's just the point at which a character stops using Shunshin (once the chakra is used up).



trocollo said:


> And we just see the jumps, him being reacted by SM Naruto doesn't seem a problem to me, actually seems even strange as Naruto should've dodged that, Sai is less consistent since he doesn't have good reactions feats, but i think the problem here is putting SM Naruto and Sai on the same level


I'm just saying characters themselves can perceive other characters using Shunshin because Shunshin isn't dictionary-defined teleportation; the user still has to physically cross space, it's just really fast movement. It's even visible to the reader. It's not like the character tangibly disappears and reappears in another location like Hiraishin users.



trocollo said:


> It is semi-automatic, ninja won't be able to use it otherwise, the big majority of ninja can't react to the shunshin speeds, that's why it's used as a retreat tactic and not to attack, it's a death sentence running at the enemy like that, take Kakashi, even with a partial shunshin he was going to be killed by the Iwa ninja cause the latter could foretell that Kakashi was going straight to him, as Minato said, Kakashi couldn't percive his counterattack because of the speed


I'm not sure what you mean by semi-automatic, it just speeds up the body and makes characters really fast.

Can we be confident that Kakashi used Shunshin there? How would we define a partial Shunshin?



trocollo said:


> That if Naruto was using shunshin in the second panel you posted we would have seen him flicking aka not seeing him or seen a flash of light


Why would we see a flash of light when that's not necessarily what Shunshin is nor how the author depicts it other times? It's just really fast movement, and in that second , Kishimoto is capturing Naruto in transit, showing that he's moving really fast with a red-lined backdrop, facial expression, black lines, chakra flickers, surrounding context, even probably the sound effect. Logically, why would Naruto _not_ be using Shunshin there? That's like the only way he even has a chance to tagging Ay, given that all his previous Shunshins weren't fast enough.



trocollo said:


> Same as above, can=/=must, discusing this in general doesn't offer a solution for either side
> 
> The problem is them not being a proof, their combination isn't dedicated to shunshin as you showed that they're not related by shunshin being also present when they aren't there, it's a visual effect used at discrection of how Kishi wants to make the panel cool, it's not a visula effect reserved to shunshin


By the evidence, the indicators probably are indicators for Shunshin. Where's the evidence they're likely used for it just being used for "cool", especially when we have explicit evidence of _zero_ small black lines (for instance) when KCM Naruto is just running normally, whereas every other time in that fight when he used Shunshin he had the lines?



trocollo said:


> Ah ok, tho it's normal that A4 can react to it, I'm not saying no one can, neither I'm saying that disappearing means literal teleportation, but the visual effect used to rapresent it


That's the thing, characters don't always disappear when using Shunshin. For example, A4 almost certainly used Shunshin against Sasuke, but we got to see almost the entire movement there and how the exchange happened. In fact, A4 used Shunshin against Amaterasu too but we didn't see A4 disappear and reappear in another panel, we just saw him "move" in that same panel.



trocollo said:


> Naruto never tried to attack A4, first thing he does is attemept to run past them, A4 is in front of him and he jumps how you get that he tried to blitz him? Second time goes to the side and A4 intercepts him again


Actually you're right about that, but I don't think this has any relevance.



trocollo said:


> Thanks, but they seem fair to me, in the first and third one Obito didn't react to Naruto's shunshin but to the attacks that followed it,


Those attacks involved Shunshin.



> in the second there wasn't a shunshin, they just jumped on the rocks, I get that the jump animation is silimiar to the Madara's one but the distortion to their bodies isn't, we even see Gai doing the same thing,


Naruto would have to be using Shunshin if Obito is, who certainly looks like he is. Also, the black lines are there on Naruto's body.

*Spoiler*: __ 











> last one Obito is the attacker so he didn't react to Naruto's shunshin


It may not necessarily be that he didn't notice him move. It may just be that Obito was moving so fast he didn't have time to stop and react, if that makes sense.



trocollo said:


> And stops being consistent cause if Naruto needs shunshin to keep up with him then exchanges couldn't happen as Obito would be a telporting god who trolls Naruto everytime he isn't moving at his shunshin speed, I 'm not saying Obito isn't fast, I'm making a distiction from the regular fast and from the shunshin fast


Well it's not like Obito's far fast than him physically, he's just fast enough that, with phasing, he ends up making KCM Naruto look like fodder. Plus Naruto had assistance.



trocollo said:


> If Naruto casted shunshin he would get away, in regular speed they were similiar as seen in the exchange itself, so a burst of speed gets him out, he just didn't use it, it can be unrealistic for characters not doing something that we thought would be logical to do but this happens everytime


To be fair, I don't think Naruto _could_ use Shunshin there in any competent manner against Obito, because his footing probably wasn't right after hurling his chakra arm and Obito was too fast for Naruto to fix himself, but I still think he could have attempted to move his head or body (e.g. like SMR Madara), and thus was too slow for that (given that he didn't).



trocollo said:


> 1. Better in what tho? Not in speed, it was better cause it didn't need marks; and it was decided in an istant, no problems with that
> 
> 2. Shunshin also needs to be mentally activated; Naruto outspeeded the same punch, A4 said it and even if that wasn't enough Tsunade and Bee even think thogeter of Naruto being like the yellow flash, Idk what Kishi should have done to make it even more clear
> 
> ...


*1.* It's just a better technique. Virtually instant phasing, self-warp, touch-warp. If Minato considers it better than his and Tobirama's, there has to be a reason for that. Regardless, it was Minato himself that decided the battle would be decided in an instant, so they were pretty much evenly matched. The combat feats tell the same story.

*2.* How was it the same punch? V2 A4's top speed is > young Ay's top speed. What does Naruto looking like the yellow flash have to do with Naruto being faster than him?

*3.* Doesn't it depend on where he's being attacked? He doesn't always phase every part of his body when phasing, so he should be able to still use his arms to attack with Gunbai for example. Obito's too fast that shadow clones wouldn't make a difference. Well, if not fodder, then a weakling.



trocollo said:


> I get that you want to say that doing it the moment of notice is better cause Obito is a danger, but there is the problem of dodging it said above, plus going like this break down the shunshin in the middle, why would Obito continue his attack if Naruto is already out of range, what reason he has to pummel the ground like that? He was finishing the attack, like A4 was when he was at max speed and broke the rocks behind Naruto, the way to dodge is to do that when you need to, doing it before that does't create a speed scene or an effective evasion
> Tho without further information we can't really be sure of how exactly the events unfolded in that panel


I think he was too fast to really stop, like A4.


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 27, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> A4 didn’t let Minato throw those Kunai he could do nothing to stop him from doing so. Rushing in before Minato threw his Kunai won’t have helped because A4 could not hit Minato before Minato got grab a single Kunai .thus Minato would always have blind sided him


Well, fair enough that he wouldn't have been able to stop him, but that would only be because he hadn't powered up his RCM yet, if anything.



MHA massive fan said:


> sadly on my phone so can’t reference Minato Kunai feat but it’s when the 4 hokage reached the war scene and tobirama commented Minato acts fast as he had already set up Kunai all around the juubi which naturally those Kunai were not there before the war started which means while keeping up with the other kage the guy had time to throw Kunai all around the Juubi . Now considering how large the juubi is that’s immensely impressive


If we don't know when he threw the kunai, it isn't possible to establish a speed.



MHA massive fan said:


> is your assertion then that KCM naruto shushin is twice as fast as a ninja ability to throw a Kunai?


I was speaking hypothetically. I don't know exactly how fast Minato's kunai is. But it's _certainly_, in my opinion, not faster than a Shunshin from the likes of KCM Naruto.



MHA massive fan said:


> if so what’s your view on Adult sasuke using a thrown weapon to get behind Momoshiki ( A god tier ) vs just using shushin if shushin was quicker ?


Momoshiki wouldn't have expected that. If he just used Shunshin, he would be in Momoshiki's LOS and Momoshiki would have been able to react to him similar to the way A4 reacted to and kept up with KCM Naruto. Weapons being tossed aren't normally faster than Shunshin. It's why Shunshin is frequently shown to allow characters to approach blitzing speed, whereas the same is not true for normal weapons.



MHA massive fan said:


> this is also seen by how juubimadara and juubito both with knowledge of hirahsin didn’t move away from thrown Kunai


Where did these events take place?



MHA massive fan said:


> in fact I haven’t seen in 700 chapters a single person see a thrown weapon and shushin away from it casually. More often than not people barely dodge or block accordingly they don’t just shushin away. If shushin was quicker they would


Most characters don't have a sophisticated Shunshin. A4 and KCM Naruto, who are in question here, are not most characters. A4 outsped Amaterasu. If you think of V2 A4 like a projectile, KCM Naruto outsped that projectile with Shunshin.

Here's another example. Do you really think a kunai from A4 or Bee or anyone there including Minato himself would have made Minato react like ? Of course not. A4's Shunshin allows him to move faster than most projectiles. The fact that Minato could perfectly time a teleportation to the likes of _6G Lee_'s kunai suggests he can perceive objects at a speed much faster than his own kunai toss. But you know what speed he _wouldn't_ be able to perceive? KCM Naruto's top-speed Shunshin. So KCM Naruto's top-speed Shunshin would be faster than 6G Lee's kunai. 6G Gai is relative in speed to KCM Naruto.

5G Lee, albeit without Shunshin, outsped JJ Madara's TSB.

BOS base Naruto could dodge BOS Kakashi's weapons, but an MS-fatigued BOS Kakashi _blitzed_ KN2, and BOS no-3T Kakashi blitzed KN0.

Asura Path could react to SM Jiraiya's projectile but was blitzed by SM Naruto from a huge distance (using Shunshin).

A3 dodged KCM Naruto's FRS _twice_, but was blitzed only when Naruto used Shunshin.

Sasuke reacted to a hundred of Itachi's shuriken, and his kunai, but was blitzed by Itachi's Shunshin.



MHA massive fan said:


> now as to Minato always being faster than A because you assume every scene and every battle they had he would have had Kunai around the area before the fight started is a little false . Minato could not possibly know every location of every encounter they would have before hand
> 
> nor would A always have attacked Minato first . Don’t you think even if A stood there Minato would have just gone ahead and attacked him resulting in the same thing we saw in manga ?


I don't assume that. It's just something that could likely be initiated at the start. And he can place tags without kunai.

If A just stood there, and Minato threw a kunai towards him, A4 would just dodge that the same way KCM Naruto dodged A4, or he might just grab it. And if Minato gets close, he could be punched faster than he can react and activate Hiraishin.



New Folder said:


> So, why did Kakashi compare BM Naruto to Minato as well? Or do you think BM didn't provide any additional speed?
> 
> 
> 
> 2:42


Because KCM2 Naruto literally looked a yellow flash to him there. I guess you are trying to imply that since Minato looked like a yellow flash to characters like Bee and Tobi, that must mean Minato had a same or similar speed. But there are flaws with this thinking:

The slowest version of KCM Naruto (the one that blitzed worm Kisame) looked like a flash to Bee, yet Bee was able to keep up with faster versions of KCM Naruto, and RCM A4.
KCM2 Naruto looked like a flash to MS Kakashi. Does that mean KCM Naruto is as fast as KCM2 Naruto?
Minato, _with Hiraishin_, was reacted to _twice_ by a _younger and fatigued_ Bee.
You realise that characters can look flashy depending on aesthetics and if a character blinks? For example, I don't think Minato would have looked like a flash in broad daylight; when Minato escaped A4, A4 wasn't like "he's fast as a flash!" — in fact no one there reacted like that (what Bee probably recalls as a flash is when he saw Hokage Minato in the night) — whereas in the night, he could have flashed more to the eye. And if a character blinks, their eyes could perceive the movement as if it was like a flash. The fact that MS Kakashi thought he saw Minato but _base_ Gai saw Naruto demonstrates why you have to take these details into consideration.


----------



## MHA massive fan (Aug 27, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Well, fair enough that he wouldn't have been able to stop him, but that would only be because he hadn't powered up his RCM yet, if anything.
> 
> 
> If we don't know when he threw the kunai, it isn't possible to establish a speed.
> ...



i am saying even if A was powered up to the max before the fight he can’t strike Minato quicker than Minato can let go of a Kunai. 

Why won’t momoshiki have expected that he knew how sauske jutsu worked he had seen it before


----------



## trocollo (Aug 28, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Well, by considering everything.
> 
> Lined backdrop → potential indicator
> Small black lines → potential indicator
> ...


What I'm talking about at the start is correlation, I know that it happened that a shunshin had those effects, but it also happened that a shunshin didn't have those effects, conclusion is that those effects aren't reserved to shunshin; to go into specifics like: "It must be true only for KCM Naruto that when the backdrop + black lines are thogheter is always shunshin" you first need to prove that it is the case, not that a scene could mean that it possible, cause for me another scene proves that it's not the case, so there isn't the correlation in the first place (then there is also the problem to go from correlation to causation but ok)



Mad Scientist said:


> Make the user disappear from whose perspective? It might look to _us_ that characters are disappearing, thought even that isn't always the case as we've seen characters use Shunshin but are still visible in the frame, but the characters themselves can react to and keep up with each other. We've even seen characters disappear but they did not use Shunshin at all. These distinctions are important because characters that have a similar speed can _look as if_ they are not using Shunshin merely because the author is capturing their movement as they're heading towards each other (e.g. Sasuke vs A4), even though they _may very well be_.
> 
> And if its consistency that is needed, note the paragraphs above.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by real deal. Every time KCM Naruto tried to blitz A4, those were all real. Naruto just wasn't skilled enough to achieve a Shunshin fast enough to dodge A4, until the end.


They look to us they are disappearing, so it means they increrased their speed, the speed they used to disappear is > the speed they were figthing at ence there has been a burst in speed that put one above the other the moment one decided to use it
Not sure at what istances of characters disappearing without shunshin you're referring to and what's your point with Sasuke and A4, you think they used or not shunshin?

It's not consistent when Naruto can blitz Obito from a landside but then the two are equal in speed when they fight

Yeah that's what I mean



Mad Scientist said:


> Scans?


To solve what problem? If for you the increrase in speed isn't given by some shunshin-like thing it's cool for me, I just wanted to make an example to give an idea



Mad Scientist said:


> That's not the kind of Shunshin I'm referring to though. That's a variant.


I'm referring to that, not sure what the other variants should be unless you mean what I was referring above, honestly I'm not sure how to call them, enhanced speed?



Mad Scientist said:


> Well the DB says that the amount of chakra used up differs depending on the distance and elevation of the stopping point in comparison to the starting point. We know that SM Naruto, for example, was fresh at the start and was a huge elevation distance away the Asura Path. One or more of such factors would have played a part in that blitz; SM Naruto can't use Shunshin to blitz characters like that when they're not far from each other and/or the elevation isn't high and/or if he doesn't prep/start fresh, given that he didn't.


Aren't you confusing the cost of the jutsu with the speed of it?
Another example is Naruto reaching and stopping Obito's attack on Kakashi from a great distance



Mad Scientist said:


> I don't think the stopping point is a set thing, it's just the point at which a character stops using Shunshin (once the chakra is used up).


Maybe when you're in the speed ballpark of A4 that could be possible to do, if not you can't react to shunshin speed so changing your direction in the middle of it shouldn't be possible



Mad Scientist said:


> I'm just saying characters themselves can perceive other characters using Shunshin because Shunshin isn't dictionary-defined teleportation; the user still has to physically cross space, it's just really fast movement. It's even visible to the reader. It's not like the character tangibly disappears and reappears in another location like Hiraishin users.


And I'm not saying that's literal teleportation but that it's too fast for other people to react to but it's possible to predict it



Mad Scientist said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by semi-automatic, it just speeds up the body and makes characters really fast.
> 
> Can we be confident that Kakashi used Shunshin there? How would we define a partial Shunshin?


But the character can't "live" in those speeds, it all happens in an istant for him (again with the usual exceptions, take a normal chunin/jonin)

You can call the method he acquired that speed how you want, my point is on the problems of increrasing speed



Mad Scientist said:


> Why would we see a flash of light when that's not necessarily what Shunshin is nor how the author depicts it other times? It's just really fast movement, and in that second , Kishimoto is capturing Naruto in transit, showing that he's moving really fast with a red-lined backdrop, facial expression, black lines, chakra flickers, surrounding context, even probably the sound effect. Logically, why would Naruto _not_ be using Shunshin there? That's like the only way he even has a chance to tagging Ay, given that all his previous Shunshins weren't fast enough.


I meant the image on the right (second from the left, westerns problems lol)



Mad Scientist said:


> By the evidence, the indicators probably are indicators for Shunshin. Where's the evidence they're likely used for it just being used for "cool", especially when we have explicit evidence of _zero_ small black lines (for instance) when KCM Naruto is just running normally, whereas every other time in that fight when he used Shunshin he had the lines?


Cause Kishi didn't dedicate that drawing tecnique to shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> That's the thing, characters don't always disappear when using Shunshin. For example, A4 almost certainly used Shunshin against Sasuke, but we got to see almost the entire movement there and how the exchange happened. In fact, A4 used Shunshin against Amaterasu too but we didn't see A4 disappear and reappear in another panel, we just saw him "move" in that same panel.


Cee says A4 is going to use shunshin after Sasuke puts up the MS, so the first exchange would be just regular enchanced speed like for example Bee in V1 has that Sasuke also reacted to, for amaterasu we still see the disapparance in the after image he leave while his real body is shifted, then we get him appearing behind Sasuke



Mad Scientist said:


> Actually you're right about that, but I don't think this has any relevance.


Yeah it doesn't



Mad Scientist said:


> Those attacks involved Shunshin.


Cool, so core problem reached, we just need to confirm our views, you think KCM Naruto was using shunshin:

While punching him with the clone and when the orignal was running at him while extending the chakra arm, chapter 595 page 7 and page 8
While I think he only used it with the clone before doing the punch, tho you'd need to confirm that cause you're also making an argument on Naruto with the chakra arm using shunshin to get away, so your view is that just the clone used it right?

While Obito was passing trough him, so in chapter 596 page 12 (second half) and page 12 (full)
While I think it's possible that he used shunshin to reach Gai's shoulder in the first half on page 12



Mad Scientist said:


> Naruto would have to be using Shunshin if Obito is, who certainly looks like he is. Also, the black lines are there on Naruto's body.
> *Spoiler*:


Obito also doesn't look like he's using shunshin, he's the same as Naruto there
Wasn't your point about black lines + backdrop?



Mad Scientist said:


> It may not necessarily be that he didn't notice him move. It may just be that Obito was moving so fast he didn't have time to stop and react, if that makes sense.


It makes sense, the problem is that being the specifically the case along with concidentally Naruto and Obito speeding up at the same time; in fact I'm just saying that just from being the attacker we can't get a result



Mad Scientist said:


> Well it's not like Obito's far fast than him physically, he's just fast enough that, with phasing, he ends up making KCM Naruto look like fodder. Plus Naruto had assistance.


Phashing doesn't increarase the speed of the user, I'm talking about Obito keeping up with Naruto shunshin but somehow not blitzing him when he doesn't use it, along with him getting somehow outspeeded when I think Naruto actually used shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> To be fair, I don't think Naruto _could_ use Shunshin there in any competent manner against Obito, because his footing probably wasn't right after hurling his chakra arm and Obito was too fast for Naruto to fix himself, but I still think he could have attempted to move his head or body (e.g. like SMR Madara), and thus was too slow for that (given that he didn't).


If Naruto moves his head Obito moves his arm, it's not like Naruto can move his head faster than Obito can move his hand



Mad Scientist said:


> *1.* It's just a better technique. Virtually instant phasing, self-warp, touch-warp. If Minato considers it better than his and Tobirama's, there has to be a reason for that. Regardless, it was Minato himself that decided the battle would be decided in an instant, so they were pretty much evenly matched. The combat feats tell the same story.
> 
> *2.* How was it the same punch? V2 A4's top speed is > young Ay's top speed. What does Naruto looking like the yellow flash have to do with Naruto being faster than him?
> 
> *3.* Doesn't it depend on where he's being attacked? He doesn't always phase every part of his body when phasing, so he should be able to still use his arms to attack with Gunbai for example. Obito's too fast that shadow clones wouldn't make a difference. Well, if not fodder, then a weakling.


1. Yeah but you listed that in a peed comparison, I'm just saying that FTG is faster not that is better

2. Pretty sure we discussed of this also in the debate, I'd have to take what you used to say Ay improved from there, but then we'd start another point and things are already long, lets keep that for later in the hope we resolve the shunshin thing first lol

3. No when he activates phasing he can't interact with the world, he's not able to phase a part of himself and attack with another, 
Lol, lets just say the fight ends pretty soon



Mad Scientist said:


> I think he was too fast to really stop, like A4.


I mean you can think that, the problem is proving it, as long as is unclear for me works


----------



## Mad Scientist (Aug 28, 2020)

trocollo said:


> What I'm talking about at the start is correlation, I know that it happened that a shunshin had those effects, but it also happened that a shunshin didn't have those effects, conclusion is that those effects aren't reserved to shunshin; to go into specifics like: "It must be true only for KCM Naruto that when the backdrop + black lines are thogheter is always shunshin" you first need to prove that it is the case, not that a scene could mean that it possible, cause for me another scene proves that it's not the case, so there isn't the correlation in the first place (then there is also the problem to go from correlation to causation but ok)


I can't prove it but this isn't a proof problem. The problem is subjectivity, because determining whether a character is using Shunshin or not isn't without ambiguity, which is why people interpret it differently. By using what visuals are in common when characters use Shunshin, especially KCM Naruto's as he's the one in question, it is possible to derive _potential indicators_, and when those indicators are stacked upon each other, we can deduce stronger indicators, which is useful because it side-steps the issue of subjectivity, at least partially, by trying to be objective.

But I will clarify.

Small black lines
_*Every*_ single time KCM Naruto and his relatives in speed, RCM A4 and Bee, used Shunshin in that battle, a certain speed visual was _*always*_ present — *the small black lines* [, , , , , , ]. But notice how characters _not_ moving in that realm of speed _do not_ exhibit the feature or if they do it's like super minimally (, ), even if Kishimoto uses the small black lines in pages or even _panels_ back-to-back. The consistency with which this visual speed effect has been applied to characters moving at KCM-level speed with Shunshin and _not_ been applied to characters _not_ moving at such speed, cannot be made clearer, hence it is a strong potential indicator of Shunshin at least when it comes to KCM Naruto and RCM A4.

Backdrop lines
Backdrop lines during movement, usually mean a character is moving very fast. And the same is consistent in that battle [, , , , ]. Something interesting also happens near the last few panels.

*Spoiler*: __ 








Notice how Naruto, who was running pretty fast but not at Shunshin-level speed and had the lined backdrop, _loses the backdrop_ when the _much faster_ A4 (using his Shunshin) approaches him and only _he_ is covered with the lined backdrop? Then, when _Naruto_ uses Shunshin, his VOOSH sfx is covered with lines. This all makes it pretty clear that Kishimoto often uses these speed visuals as indicators of very fast movement, like Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> They look to us they are disappearing, so it means they increrased their speed, the speed they used to disappear is > the speed they were figthing at ence there has been a burst in speed that put one above the other the moment one decided to use it
> Not sure at what istances of characters disappearing without shunshin you're referring to and what's your point with Sasuke and A4, you think they used or not shunshin?


They don't always disappear and reappear in a different location though.

For example, Sasuke and A4 are using Shunshin...

*Spoiler*: __ 




​



...but we as readers can clearly see them keep moving. This is almost exactly the same as in cases where Obito is chasing down Naruto.

Here's another example. Bee and A4 use Shunshin against each other, but it's not like they disappear from one location and reappear in another. We can literally see Bee moving from his first spot, and we see their movement towards each other similar to Sasuke vs A4.

*Spoiler*: __ 









And just because to _us_ a character might appear to disappear from one location and appear at another instantly, doesn't necessarily mean the characters themselves aren't perceiving and keeping up with each other. Because of this, a character _not_ appearing to disappear to us doesn't necessarily mean they aren't using Shunshin in reality. It's just one potential indicator of many.

And it's not like they always completely disappear to us anyway. Sometimes we see traces of them [, , ] or see them using Shunshin even though they're visible [, , , ].



> It's not consistent when Naruto can blitz Obito from a landside but then the two are equal in speed when they fight


When did KCM Naruto blitz Obito?



trocollo said:


> I'm referring to that, not sure what the other variants should be unless you mean what I was referring above, honestly I'm not sure how to call them, enhanced speed?


Well maybe they are Shunshin too, but I'm talking about Shunshin used in combat, such as when KCM Naruto blitzed worm Kisame, or when A4 kept up with KCM Naruto's 2nd Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> Aren't you confusing the cost of the jutsu with the speed of it?
> Another example is Naruto reaching and stopping Obito's attack on Kakashi from a great distance


I mean I already said characters can use Shunshin to strike too. I don't see the point you're trying to make?



trocollo said:


> Maybe when you're in the speed ballpark of A4 that could be possible to do, if not you can't react to shunshin speed so changing your direction in the middle of it shouldn't be possible


It's just really fast movement, why wouldn't one be able to  their  in the middle of using it?



trocollo said:


> And I'm not saying that's literal teleportation but that it's too fast for other people to react to but it's possible to predict it


A4 reacted to and kept up with KCM Naruto's 2nd Shunshin, so it's certainly possible to keep up with it. Sasuke kept up with A4's Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> But the character can't "live" in those speeds, it all happens in an istant for him (again with the usual exceptions, take a normal chunin/jonin)
> 
> You can call the method he acquired that speed how you want, my point is on the problems of increrasing speed


Well exceptions are the characters in question. We're talking about the likes of KCM Naruto and Obito and A4 etc., who are relative to each other.

Yeah but if you disagree that chakra cost isn't at least somewhat proportional to Shunshin speed, then how else would we define a partial Shunshin if that exists? Or by partial Shunshin do you mean that Shunshin can be used in a certain part of the body?



trocollo said:


> I meant the image on the right (second from the left, westerns problems lol)


Well, I would say pretty much the exact same thing.

Why would we see a flash of light when that's not necessarily what Shunshin is nor how the author depicts it other times? It's just really fast movement, and in that panel, Kishimoto is capturing Naruto in transit, showing that he's moving really fast with a purple-lined backdrop, facial expression in related panels, small black lines, chakra flickers, surrounding context, even probably the sound effect (following). Logically, why would Naruto _not_ be using Shunshin there? That's like the only way he even has a chance to keeping up / tagging Obito, given how fast Obito proved himself to be.



trocollo said:


> Cause Kishi didn't dedicate that drawing tecnique to shunshin


The KCM Naruto vs A4 fight shows clearly that he pretty much did, at least for KCM Naruto (as I've shown above).



trocollo said:


> Cee says A4 is going to use shunshin after Sasuke puts up the MS, so the first exchange would be just regular enchanced speed like for example Bee in V1 has that Sasuke also reacted to, for amaterasu we still see the disapparance in the after image he leave while his real body is shifted, then we get him appearing behind Sasuke


Well that isn't the Raikage disappearing; the author is literally showing us that he moved from one spot to another, and the way he wanted to convey A4's speed there was to leave an after-image in the frame.

We also saw a similar image when Sasuke outspeeded A4 during their Shunshin-enhanced clash.



trocollo said:


> Cool, so core problem reached, we just need to confirm our views, you think KCM Naruto was using shunshin:
> 
> While punching him with the clone and when the orignal was running at him while extending the chakra arm, chapter 595 page 7 and page 8
> While I think he only used it with the clone before doing the punch, tho you'd need to confirm that cause you're also making an argument on Naruto with the chakra arm using shunshin to get away, so your view is that just the clone used it right?
> ...


Well you already showed that KCM2 Naruto can use Shunshin with his chakra arms (e.g. to block Madara's Susano). I don't see the problem with Naruto applying his Shunshin to his chakra arm and/or himself in that clone scene with Obito. Both the clone and Naruto would have used Shunshin.

Yeah I don't doubt at all that Naruto was using Shunshin when he was lunging a Rasengan at Obito's face.



trocollo said:


> Obito also doesn't look like he's using shunshin, he's the same as Naruto there
> Wasn't your point about black lines + backdrop?


He's definitely using Shunshin there, and both the lined backdrop and black lines are present (panels 2-3, 11-12).

*Spoiler*: __ 








(In case you question the nature of the backdrop, panels of characters using Shunshin aren't always accompanied with a completely lined backdrop [, , , ].)



trocollo said:


> It makes sense, the problem is that being the specifically the case along with concidentally Naruto and Obito speeding up at the same time; in fact I'm just saying that just from being the attacker we can't get a result


Well I think it's most likely that's what happened. If he's going that fast, I don't see how he could stop given that distance, and maybe his nonchalant attitude had something to do with it. I mean, what can we expect him to do mid-air when he's already falling down? It might be a different story if he was on the ground as he has shown he can move around in different directions when using Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> Phashing doesn't increarase the speed of the user, I'm talking about Obito keeping up with Naruto shunshin but somehow not blitzing him when he doesn't use it, along with him getting somehow outspeeded when I think Naruto actually used shunshin


Why would he blitz him when they're both using Shunshin, are comparable in speed and Naruto had assistance?



trocollo said:


> If Naruto moves his head Obito moves his arm, it's not like Naruto can move his head faster than Obito can move his hand


He can still move his head backwards though, if he was fast enough.



trocollo said:


> 1. Yeah but you listed that in a peed comparison, I'm just saying that FTG is faster not that is better
> 
> 2. Pretty sure we discussed of this also in the debate, I'd have to take what you used to say Ay improved from there, but then we'd start another point and things are already long, lets keep that for later in the hope we resolve the shunshin thing first lol
> 
> ...


*1.* In overall speed Obito was pretty much evenly matched with Minato. Obviously Minato was slightly faster, but the battle was decided by an edge.

*2.* All right, let's resolve the Shunshin debate first.

*3.* How does scene prove he can't interact with the world with parts he doesn't phase? We have Kakashi punching him from the other side and him feeling the physical repercussions on the outside. And logically speaking, if he only phases with certain parts of his body, that means he _isn't_ phasing with the other parts; evidently, he swings up his Gunbai when Naruto is passing through him, and he runs on the ground while phasing through Naruto's chakra arm.


----------



## trocollo (Aug 29, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> I can't prove it but this isn't a proof problem. The problem is subjectivity, because determining whether a character is using Shunshin or not isn't without ambiguity, which is why people interpret it differently. By using what visuals are in common when characters use Shunshin, especially KCM Naruto's as he's the one in question, it is possible to derive _potential indicators_, and when those indicators are stacked upon each other, we can deduce stronger indicators, which is useful because it side-steps the issue of subjectivity, at least partially, by trying to be objective.
> 
> But I will clarify.
> 
> ...


I agree that you can use visuals to aid your explanation of how a panel should be interpreted, if I was saying: "hey that panel is kinda slow Imo"
You say: "No, look there are speed lines there, the author is clearly trying to say that this scene is happening fast"
But here you want to attribuite these visual effects to a specific istance, but the author doesn't follow that rule, black line + line backdrop isn't reserved to shunshin, this already solves the problem making it imposible to create a correlation, your "is valid only for KCM Naruto and it doesn't have to be always present" isn't enough proof cause there's not way to say if that's true or false since you're resticting yourself to a very limited array; it's like I start making theories on other characters that were in for a bit basing myself on the visual effects but only for them, not on the manga itself

Same effect is also present when shunshin isn't used, same thing for the lined backdrop, but both thogeter and it still isn't reserved to shunshin, surely it has been used in some shunshin istances since it's an effect to rapresent speed, but again it's not a dedicated effect to them, you have shunshin with and without it, speed scenes with and without it, same way I bring a *Link Removed* and then take the same guy *Link Removed* or *Link Removed* with backdrop and black lines and say that Kishi decided to draw shunshin without backdrop or black lines while if it's not then there are these effects; but I shouldn't even need examples in the first place



Mad Scientist said:


> They don't always disappear and reappear in a different location though.
> 
> For example, Sasuke and A4 are using Shunshin...
> *Spoiler*:
> ...


I said it in another point in the previous response, but Cee says that the raikage is going to use shunshin after Sasuke brings the MS into play

Bee and A4 aren't using shunshin there tho, they're just running at each other

That's not the reason why characters can't percive the speed, the reason for that is that shunshin isn't used in combact and already some kind of slower version of it already has problems as explained by Minato to Kakashi, people can't percive those speeds, otherwise everyone would just neg-bliz anyone and battles would be on another level of speed, but what happens is that we just see shunshin used to retreat (exception for the very few who use it in battle)
It's the best indicator, since people don't disappear for no reason

Traces are fine, nothing aganist it;
Sasuke isn't visible, he appears in the first panel after using shunshin, but then it's all physical movement
From Madara we just see a mix of a trace and his body in the right so ok, but it's not visible
Guess you mean the panel when the raikage punches? That's after the shunshin, he attacks Naruto at the stopping point
I thought you were fine with that, even of we don't agree on how that scene is depicted for you it's still the frame at the end of the movement



Mad Scientist said:


> When did KCM Naruto blitz Obito?


When Obito *Link Removed* Kakashi



Mad Scientist said:


> Well maybe they are Shunshin too, but I'm talking about Shunshin used in combat, such as when KCM Naruto blitzed worm Kisame, or when A4 kept up with KCM Naruto's 2nd Shunshin.


It's the same shunshin used to excape, it's just that ninja can't use it because of the speed is too high



Mad Scientist said:


> I mean I already said characters can use Shunshin to strike too. I don't see the point you're trying to make?


The point you were replying to was to burst of speeds and how to justify them, but you took Naruto vs Ashura and used the datbook that says that the cost increrase with the distance and elevation to say that since Ashura is below then it's justifiable, but that's the cost, what we need to justify is the speed



Mad Scientist said:


> It's just really fast movement, why wouldn't one be able to  their  in the middle of using it?


Cause they can't react to that speed



Mad Scientist said:


> A4 reacted to and kept up with KCM Naruto's 2nd Shunshin, so it's certainly possible to keep up with it. Sasuke kept up with A4's Shunshin.


Didn't mean A4 reaction level people, but everyone else

He didn't, he lost track of him



Mad Scientist said:


> Well exceptions are the characters in question. We're talking about the likes of KCM Naruto and Obito and A4 etc., who are relative to each other.
> 
> Yeah but if you disagree that chakra cost isn't at least somewhat proportional to Shunshin speed, then how else would we define a partial Shunshin if that exists? Or by partial Shunshin do you mean that Shunshin can be used in a certain part of the body?


They aren't relative, A4 still has the best reflexes cause of his jutsu that enhances them, KCM Naruto has a better shunshin, Obito never reacted to Naruto's shunshin for me, we're still discussing this

What's the deal with the cost? The problem is that Kakashi couldn't handle that speed in combact; but yeah the cost should increrase the speed, but we don't know if it's the only factor as chakra control should also help



Mad Scientist said:


> Well, I would say pretty much the exact same thing.
> 
> Why would we see a flash of light when that's not necessarily what Shunshin is nor how the author depicts it other times? It's just really fast movement, and in that panel, Kishimoto is capturing Naruto in transit, showing that he's moving really fast with a purple-lined backdrop, facial expression in related panels, small black lines, chakra flickers, surrounding context, even probably the sound effect (following). Logically, why would Naruto _not_ be using Shunshin there? That's like the only way he even has a chance to keeping up / tagging Obito, given how fast Obito proved himself to be.


Why would it be shunshin if black lines + lined backdrop is not necessarely what shunshin is nor how the author depicts it other times?
You're contering my example and then responding to it with the same argument you are going aganist
But the difference is that we see shunshin with those disappearing effects and in the exchange with Obito even your effects are missing, meaning they were there just for the rasengan drawing



Mad Scientist said:


> The KCM Naruto vs A4 fight shows clearly that he pretty much did, at least for KCM Naruto (as I've shown above).


Refer to the point done in the first quote of this post



Mad Scientist said:


> Well that isn't the Raikage disappearing; the author is literally showing us that he moved from one spot to another, and the way he wanted to convey A4's speed there was to leave an after-image in the frame.
> 
> We also saw a similar image when Sasuke outspeeded A4 during their Shunshin-enhanced clash.


Not sure if I'm getting your point, if you want to make a parallel with the shunshin-enhanced clash then that means that the after image was just a sunshin-enhanced movement, and shunshin was used just after when he got behind Sasuke
So it's fine for what I'm saying, but still the scenes are different, Sasuke doesn't have after images what it's shown is the movement Sasuke did in a single panel, while A4 has an actual after image as he takes two panels to generate it, maybe it's not like this for you but I'm also cool with the first case



Mad Scientist said:


> Well you already showed that KCM2 Naruto can use Shunshin with his chakra arms (e.g. to block Madara's Susano). I don't see the problem with Naruto applying his Shunshin to his chakra arm and/or himself in that clone scene with Obito. Both the clone and Naruto would have used Shunshin.
> 
> Yeah I don't doubt at all that Naruto was using Shunshin when he was lunging a Rasengan at Obito's face.


Why you think Naruto could excape with a shunshin from that then? He's already using shunshin and Obito is keeping up with him in your view using shunshin is already being done and wouldn't get him away



Mad Scientist said:


> He's definitely using Shunshin there, and both the lined backdrop and black lines are present (panels 2-3, 11-12).
> *Spoiler*:
> 
> 
> (In case you question the nature of the backdrop, panels of characters using Shunshin aren't always accompanied with a completely lined backdrop [, , , ].)


This page is even missing Naruto with black lines + backdrop in even just a panel, and specifically in the panel of the jumping rocks were you think that it's were they were using shunshin, when Naruto and Obito jump their body is clearly visible, Madara's is all stretced in the similair humping istance and Naruto gets intercepted and hit by the physical movement of the gunbai



Mad Scientist said:


> Well I think it's most likely that's what happened. If he's going that fast, I don't see how he could stop given that distance, and maybe his nonchalant attitude had something to do with it. I mean, what can we expect him to do mid-air when he's already falling down? It might be a different story if he was on the ground as he has shown he can move around in different directions when using Shunshin.


I'm not saying your scenario is an impossible one, you can create a plausile scenario where your view works, but you can't prove your scenario is the right one, how I see the scene also makes sense, this just means that the scene in question isn't clear enough to decide wich scenario is right, what we need for that is to see what we get from the rest and apply it to that



Mad Scientist said:


> Why would he blitz him when they're both using Shunshin, are comparable in speed and Naruto had assistance?


I guess this works, as lng as you don't think Obito physically responded to Naruto's shunshin but only responded to it with his shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> He can still move his head backwards though, if he was fast enough.


? He's running at Obito, he needs to stop and move his body in the opposide direction to get his head away in the backward direction, he can't just flip it backward, it wouldn't even be enough since the hand is in the face and not in the head



Mad Scientist said:


> *1.* In overall speed Obito was pretty much evenly matched with Minato. Obviously Minato was slightly faster, but the battle was decided by an edge.
> 
> *2.* All right, let's resolve the Shunshin debate first.
> 
> *3.* How does scene prove he can't interact with the world with parts he doesn't phase? We have Kakashi punching him from the other side and him feeling the physical repercussions on the outside. And logically speaking, if he only phases with certain parts of his body, that means he _isn't_ phasing with the other parts; evidently, he swings up his Gunbai when Naruto is passing through him, and he runs on the ground while phasing through Naruto's chakra arm.


1. I'm talking about kamui

3. Cause if he could it would be gg for Naruto, like when he was aganist the jinchuriki and the masters saved him by attacking Obito
Obito's pieces are still connected so surely he feels the damage
he decides when to activate the phashing the part of the body who phases are the ones that come in contact with something, it's not like Obito pinpoins the part to phase
No he hits Naruto with the gunbai after Naruto passed trough him
He has foothold in kamui-land, but honestly this is strange, still it's clear that he can't make contact while using phashing: *Link Removed* / *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* / *Link Removed*


----------



## Mad Scientist (Aug 29, 2020)

trocollo said:


> I guess this works, as lng as you don't think Obito physically responded to Naruto's shunshin but only responded to it with his shunshin


Yeah I mean that's pretty much what I've been assuming this entire time. They're both using Shunshin, just as Sasuke was against A4, just as A4 was against KCM Naruto.



trocollo said:


> I agree that you can use visuals to aid your explanation of how a panel should be interpreted, if I was saying: "hey that panel is kinda slow Imo"
> You say: "No, look there are speed lines there, the author is clearly trying to say that this scene is happening fast"
> But here you want to attribuite these visual effects to a specific istance, but the author doesn't follow that rule, black line + line backdrop isn't reserved to shunshin, this already solves the problem making it imposible to create a correlation, your "is valid only for KCM Naruto and it doesn't have to be always present" isn't enough proof cause there's not way to say if that's true or false since you're resticting yourself to a very limited array; it's like I start making theories on other characters that were in for a bit basing myself on the visual effects but only for them, not on the manga itself


I'm not trying to provide a proof, though. I've provided enough evidence to support a _very strong_ correlation as to how those lines are used alongside the author's depiction of Shunshin for KCM Naruto and RCM A4, who are the types of characters in question, so that these can be used as viable potential indicators. The author has made it clear that characters like Tsunade and Shunshin-less KCM Naruto don't exhibit the small black lines, or if they do it's super minimal. Every single other time, when Naruto (_and his peer_) has been using Shunshin, they exhibited such effect. The author has clearly showed what speed in comparison to A4's fast movements look like. And we know that Obito can keep up with KCM Naruto's Shunshin, and what to expect when they're moving at such speed.

*Spoiler*: __ 











trocollo said:


> Same effect is also present when shunshin isn't used, same thing for the lined backdrop, but both thogeter and it still isn't reserved to shunshin, surely it has been used in some shunshin istances since it's an effect to rapresent speed, but again it's not a dedicated effect to them, you have shunshin with and without it, speed scenes with and without it, same way I bring a *Link Removed* and then take the same guy *Link Removed* or *Link Removed* with backdrop and black lines and say that Kishi decided to draw shunshin without backdrop or black lines while if it's not then there are these effects; but I shouldn't even need examples in the first place


I get that those effects can be used when Shunshin isn't being used, but for KCM Naruto, it is dedicated, as shown in the contrast between him and Tsunade/him without Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> I said it in another point in the previous response, but Cee says that the raikage is going to use shunshin after Sasuke brings the MS into play


I know he says that, but I don't see the point you're making?

If you're trying to make the point that V1 A4 wasn't using Shunshin, that's just not true. There's a _reason_ Cee believes the Sharingan wouldn't be able to keep up with V1 A4. There's a _reason_ V1 A4 looks like he's constantly using Shunshin. And Cee saying that V2 A4 is going to use Shunshin — _in the context of using that to combat the MS_ — doesn't necessarily mean that's the only time A4 was going to use Shunshin. Evidently, V1 A4 used Shunshin against Madara, and KCM Naruto. That's just his standard mode of operation.



trocollo said:


> Bee and A4 aren't using shunshin there tho, they're just running at each other


No, I'm pretty sure they're using Shunshin. There are enough signs to _strongly_ indicate that. The only thing that could potentially contradict that is the fact that they're talking, but we know characters can talk and shout and think when using Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> That's not the reason why characters can't percive the speed, the reason for that is that shunshin isn't used in combact and already some kind of slower version of it already has problems as explained by Minato to Kakashi, people can't percive those speeds, otherwise everyone would just neg-bliz anyone and battles would be on another level of speed, but what happens is that we just see shunshin used to retreat (exception for the very few who use it in battle)
> It's the best indicator, since people don't disappear for no reason


I've demonstrated several times that:
A) Shunshin _*is*_ used in combat,
B) it can be reacted to _*and*_ kept up with,
C) sometimes the characters are even visible to the reader while Shunshin is being used.

Shunshin isn't observable to characters that are too slow. That's fine. We're not looking at such characters. We're looking at KCM Naruto-tier characters who have proven they can keep up with each other's Shunshin speeds.



trocollo said:


> Traces are fine, nothing aganist it;
> Sasuke isn't visible, he appears in the first panel after using shunshin, but then it's all physical movement
> From Madara we just see a mix of a trace and his body in the right so ok, but it's not visible
> Guess you mean the panel when the raikage punches? That's after the shunshin, he attacks Naruto at the stopping point
> I thought you were fine with that, even of we don't agree on how that scene is depicted for you it's still the frame at the end of the movement


Sasuke is visible. We literally see him several times across those pages. Shunshin _is_ physical movement, just enhanced.

For Madara we literally see his feet etc., so he is visible, and btw SM Naruto reacted to him.

No, the panel when the Raikage has jumped into the air and KCM Naruto is shocked — they are using Shunshin in that moment — it's not like Naruto had stopped using Shunshin; he hadn't even reached his destination yet.



trocollo said:


> When Obito *Link Removed* Kakashi


That's KCM2 Naruto, and he didn't blitz Obito, he blitzed a projectile.

I don't see the point you're trying to make here.



trocollo said:


> It's the same shunshin used to excape, it's just that ninja can't use it because of the speed is too high


A4, KCM Naruto, Bee, Obito etc. can see it just fine. SM Naruto reacted to Madara's. Deidara reacted to Sasuke's. As long as characters are in a certain ballpark of speed, they can probably react to each other's Shunshin, as demonstrated by those guys.



trocollo said:


> The point you were replying to was to burst of speeds and how to justify them, but you took Naruto vs Ashura and used the datbook that says that the cost increrase with the distance and elevation to say that since Ashura is below then it's justifiable, but that's the cost, what we need to justify is the speed


We need to justify the speed for whom? If for SM Naruto's feat against Asura, it could just be he had prepared a lot of chakra into that, which if is the case, it could have required careful preparation (which could explain why he didn't do that again). Or, elevation distance might have something inherently to do with the jutsu.



trocollo said:


> Cause they can't react to that speed


SM Naruto literally reacted to it, and A4 reacted to KCM Naruto's. The DB literally alludes to this idea that while Shunshin isn't visible to ordinary observers, that isn't necessarily the case with extraordinary characters (i.e. the likes of KCM Naruto).



trocollo said:


> Didn't mean A4 reaction level people, but everyone else
> 
> He didn't, he lost track of him


A4 speed level characters *are* who we are primarily interested in. There are some _very_ clear differences made with him in comparison to characters not moving at his level, and those that are.

Sasuke outsped V1 A4 — both were using Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> They aren't relative, A4 still has the best reflexes cause of his jutsu that enhances them, KCM Naruto has a better shunshin, Obito never reacted to Naruto's shunshin for me, we're still discussing this
> 
> What's the deal with the cost? The problem is that Kakashi couldn't handle that speed in combact; but yeah the cost should increrase the speed, but we don't know if it's the only factor as chakra control should also help


They are certainly relative. Obito can react to all of KCM Naruto's attacks including his Shunshin, and makes him look like a weakling. A4 is slower than KCM Naruto, and KCM Naruto has comparable if not better reflexes.

Cost? Well you say you had a problem with increasing speed; doesn't this help explain it?



trocollo said:


> Why would it be shunshin if black lines + lined backdrop is not necessarely what shunshin is nor how the author depicts it other times?
> You're contering my example and then responding to it with the same argument you are going aganist
> But the difference is that we see shunshin with those disappearing effects and in the exchange with Obito even your effects are missing, meaning they were there just for the rasengan drawing


Because it's been established as a strong indicator. And it's not just black lines + backdrop, there are other factors too.

That's because your argument for Shunshin is coming across as a be-all, that Shunshin necessarily depicts characters disappearing from one location and appearing at another. But it's only a sign, not necessarily the case. As I've said before, it's only _one of many_ tells. Any character that jumps normally will disappear from one place and reappear at another too, so we have to be careful here. On the other hand, the contrast between KCM Naruto and characters not moving at his level, and characters that are moving at his level, has been made very clear.

We've seen what we can expect KCM Naruto's Shunshin and him not using Shunshin to look like when concerning characters of similar speed. Those indicators are there against Obito, as I've shown (read below for more on this).



trocollo said:


> Not sure if I'm getting your point, if you want to make a parallel with the shunshin-enhanced clash then that means that the after image was just a sunshin-enhanced movement, and shunshin was used just after when he got behind Sasuke
> So it's fine for what I'm saying, but still the scenes are different, Sasuke doesn't have after images what it's shown is the movement Sasuke did in a single panel, while A4 has an actual after image as he takes two panels to generate it, maybe it's not like this for you but I'm also cool with the first case


Do you really think Sasuke can fine-tune his Shunshin at that point against someone that fast? It's pretty clear they were both using Shunshin throughout.

I don't see what relevance A4's after-image has. Sure, that's Shunshin. That's how the author depicted his speed there. What has that got to do with anything else? We already know what we can expect KCM Naruto's Shunshin to look like.



trocollo said:


> Why you think Naruto could excape with a shunshin from that then? He's already using shunshin and Obito is keeping up with him in your view using shunshin is already being done and wouldn't get him away


I don't think that. I only brought that up because you were suggesting he wasn't using Shunshin there.

But whether they were both using Shunshin or not doesn't change the fact Naruto didn't at least move his head a little back.



trocollo said:


> This page is even missing Naruto with black lines + backdrop in even just a panel, and specifically in the panel of the jumping rocks were you think that it's were they were using shunshin, when Naruto and Obito jump their body is clearly visible, Madara's is all stretced in the similair humping istance and Naruto gets intercepted and hit by the physical movement of the gunbai


Madara's is like that because he's too fast for SM Naruto. We saw what Shunshin can look like when two characters of similar speed are going at it (Sasuke vs A4, A4 vs Naruto, A4 vs Bee). Because Obito is of a similar speed to KCM Naruto, they _will_ look like that, especially if it's not a close-up. Why do you think that RSM Naruto and Rikudo Sasuke look kinda normal when fighting Kaguya, for example? It's because they're in the same ballpark of speed. If it was RSM Naruto vs KCM Naruto, that would not be the case, as then it would look as if RSM Naruto had completely disappeared, as he's way faster than KCM Naruto.

And look at this scan. Panel 10 doesn't have such lines at all. Doesn't mean he wasn't using Shunshin there. Panel 7, Naruto is completely visible to the reader. Panel 8, this is what we can expect when looking at Shunshin-speed Gunbai. Panels 14-15, this is what we can expect when Obito is using Shunshin-speed movement.

*Spoiler*: __ 









And notice how this aligns with Obito hounding after KCM Naruto? Panel 3, Gunbai is clearly of the same speed as above (especially considering context such as how it hit Naruto). Panel 1, Obito has small black lines + there are backdrop emphasis lines. Panel 12, Obito has small black lines + lined backdrop. Plus all the context. It's pretty clear they're most likely using Shunshin here.

*Spoiler*: __ 











trocollo said:


> I'm not saying your scenario is an impossible one, you can create a plausile scenario where your view works, but you can't prove your scenario is the right one, how I see the scene also makes sense, this just means that the scene in question isn't clear enough to decide wich scenario is right, what we need for that is to see what we get from the rest and apply it to that


Can you explain to me why you would expect Obito to be able to react and do something mid-air when he's moving at such a fast speed in such a limited distance? When Mu evaded KCM Naruto's strike in mid-air, how would Naruto be able to pivot himself mid-evasion? There's just not enough time/space to do that.



trocollo said:


> ? He's running at Obito, he needs to stop and move his body in the opposide direction to get his head away in the backward direction, he can't just flip it backward, it wouldn't even be enough since the hand is in the face and not in the head


He couldn't move it back at all, as far as I can tell.



trocollo said:


> 1. I'm talking about kamui
> 
> 3. Cause if he could it would be gg for Naruto, like when he was aganist the jinchuriki and the masters saved him by attacking Obito
> Obito's pieces are still connected so surely he feels the damage
> ...


*1.* Yeah Kamui is part of Obito's speed just as much Hiraishin is part of Minato's. They were relatively equal in overall speed. Minato himself confirmed as much. And the combat feats painted the same picture.

*3.* That's a fair point, good evidence too. Even so, Obito has demonstrated enough overall speed that KCM Naruto with 13 clones just wouldn't be able to touch him. He can phase instantly, before even 6G Gai's kick could tag his head. He was capable of _casually negging two_ KCM Narutos in a matter of moments.


----------



## trocollo (Aug 30, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> I'm not trying to provide a proof, though. I've provided enough evidence to support a _very strong_ correlation as to how those lines are used alongside the author's depiction of Shunshin for KCM Naruto and RCM A4, who are the types of characters in question, so that these can be used as viable potential indicators. The author has made it clear that characters like Tsunade and Shunshin-less KCM Naruto don't exhibit the small black lines, or if they do it's super minimal. Every single other time, when Naruto (_and his peer_) has been using Shunshin, they exhibited such effect. The author has clearly showed what speed in comparison to A4's fast movements look like. And we know that Obito can keep up with KCM Naruto's Shunshin, and what to expect when they're moving at such speed.
> *Spoiler*:
> 
> 
> ...


But it's not enough evidence, you restricted yourself to specific istances, it's not reasonable that KCM Naruto has special rules just for him, expecially with these rules being visual effects, I could get the point if you used for example sound effects keept for shunshin, but you're giving to him a standard effect that everyone in the manga has had (Tsunade also has it for the question btw, Madara fight), this doesn't make your case a probable one, the example I made served to explain that, not to just say that those effects can be used when shunshin isn't used, taking that example, you get specifically that shunshin is used when those effects aren't, who's not true but it ended up like that cause I made a point of a small array of entryes, the moment you say "yes but only for KCM Naruto and yes but it's not always shunshin" you're making too much speculation, you shouldn't use things that may refer to one thing or another to say it's the first cause it can't be proven, cause if it's not the first but it's the second it doesn't create a problem nor any rule is broken; probability like this doesn't give soddisfacent results, I'd get it if the correlation was stronger but again, doing it like that it gets easily manipulated as per the example

Tsunade didn't even fight there, so no reason to give her the black lines (but actually she *Link Removed* them)



Mad Scientist said:


> I know he says that, but I don't see the point you're making?
> 
> If you're trying to make the point that V1 A4 wasn't using Shunshin, that's just not true. There's a _reason_ Cee believes the Sharingan wouldn't be able to keep up with V1 A4. There's a _reason_ V1 A4 looks like he's constantly using Shunshin. And Cee saying that V2 A4 is going to use Shunshin — _in the context of using that to combat the MS_ — doesn't necessarily mean that's the only time A4 was going to use Shunshin. Evidently, V1 A4 used Shunshin against Madara, and KCM Naruto. That's just his standard mode of operation.


V1 A can use shunshin, ninja without chakra modes can, just saying that Cee said it like that was the moment A4 was going to use it, aganist Sasuke he used the enhanced-speed that regular V1 jinchuriki like V1 Bee have



Mad Scientist said:


> No, I'm pretty sure they're using Shunshin. There are enough signs to _strongly_ indicate that. The only thing that could potentially contradict that is the fact that they're talking, but we know characters can talk and shout and think when using Shunshin.


But you sayd those signs as a special case for KCM Naruto, that's A4 and Bee



Mad Scientist said:


> I've demonstrated several times that:
> A) Shunshin _*is*_ used in combat,
> B) it can be reacted to _*and*_ kept up with,
> C) sometimes the characters are even visible to the reader while Shunshin is being used.
> ...


They haven't proven it yet, A4 and Naruto did, we're still deciding for Obito; tho sure, what I'm explaining is why shunshin isn't used in combact, but yeah A4 is a character and people on the speed level of A4 also exist, surely I don't want to say that actually A4 doesn't use shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> Sasuke is visible. We literally see him several times across those pages. Shunshin _is_ physical movement, just enhanced.
> 
> For Madara we literally see his feet etc., so he is visible, and btw SM Naruto reacted to him.
> 
> No, the panel when the Raikage has jumped into the air and KCM Naruto is shocked — they are using Shunshin in that moment — it's not like Naruto had stopped using Shunshin; he hadn't even reached his destination yet.


I know is visible, as I said he appears in that first panel, he already used shunshin there

Wee se a distortion of them, who's differen from regular body, KCM Naruto body doesn't get sprayed like that; also again no probs with SM naruto blocking it, I'd expect he'd dodge it, block it was even too less

My bad, I mixed the fourth scan with the third, tho sadly same response, raikage has already done the shunshin there they're at the stopping point as we have Ay punching him, if the shunshin was still going for Naruto the punch would've been outspeeded since punch speed is slower than shunshin and A didn't use it with it



Mad Scientist said:


> That's KCM2 Naruto, and he didn't blitz Obito, he blitzed a projectile.
> 
> I don't see the point you're trying to make here.


What difference does it make? It's still in kurama chakra mode, tho going by you like you think KCM2 Naruto has like that much improved shunshin compared to KCM1?
What you mean for projectile? Obito has the shuriken in his hand

That Naruto could blitz Obito anytime with that speed but he still ends figthing on par with him



Mad Scientist said:


> A4, KCM Naruto, Bee, Obito etc. can see it just fine. SM Naruto reacted to Madara's. Deidara reacted to Sasuke's. As long as characters are in a certain ballpark of speed, they can probably react to each other's Shunshin, as demonstrated by those guys.


Is still the same shunshin used to excape, not sauing speedsters can't ue it in battle (who btw are still half those names for me)



Mad Scientist said:


> We need to justify the speed for whom? If for SM Naruto's feat against Asura, it could just be he had prepared a lot of chakra into that, which if is the case, it could have required careful preparation (which could explain why he didn't do that again). Or, elevation distance might have something inherently to do with the jutsu.


No you brought in Ashura vs Naruto, just go up with the replies to see the point discussed, I asked how you justify burst of speeds where Naruto (but even others) disappear from the secondary observers and cross large distances, tho I don't think that's a core point we can also stop it for now



Mad Scientist said:


> SM Naruto literally reacted to it, and A4 reacted to KCM Naruto's. The DB literally alludes to this idea that while Shunshin isn't visible to ordinary observers, that isn't necessarily the case with extraordinary characters (i.e. the likes of KCM Naruto).


Ok true, took the "why one" as a general ninja but as long as it's KCM Naruto then yes



Mad Scientist said:


> A4 speed level characters *are* who we are primarily interested in. There are some _very_ clear differences made with him in comparison to characters not moving at his level, and those that are.
> 
> Sasuke outsped V1 A4 — both were using Shunshin.


So we agree, that's what matters

We're talking about V2 A here



Mad Scientist said:


> They are certainly relative. Obito can react to all of KCM Naruto's attacks including his Shunshin, and makes him look like a weakling. A4 is slower than KCM Naruto, and KCM Naruto has comparable if not better reflexes.
> 
> Cost? Well you say you had a problem with increasing speed; doesn't this help explain it?


It's still under debate if Obito can react to Naruto's shunshin, but ok for the rest

No, cause the first problem in that istance is *Link Removed*, you can increrase quantity but you first need reflexes



Mad Scientist said:


> Because it's been established as a strong indicator. And it's not just black lines + backdrop, there are other factors too.
> 
> That's because your argument for Shunshin is coming across as a be-all, that Shunshin necessarily depicts characters disappearing from one location and appearing at another. But it's only a sign, not necessarily the case. As I've said before, it's only _one of many_ tells. Any character that jumps normally will disappear from one place and reappear at another too, so we have to be careful here. On the other hand, the contrast between KCM Naruto and characters not moving at his level, and characters that are moving at his level, has been made very clear.
> 
> We've seen what we can expect KCM Naruto's Shunshin and him not using Shunshin to look like when concerning characters of similar speed. Those indicators are there against Obito, as I've shown (read below for more on this).


It's not strong, it's an indicator at best, you can say it's strong when the number of cases where that effect is used without shunshin is much smaller than the number of times that effect is used with shunshin, but the number of times that effect is used whitout shunshin is a lot bigger than the number of times it was used for shunshin, you get a better proportion restricting it for KCM Naruto but doing this doesn't make sense as the only visual effect dedicated to him are the yellow flames of KCM burning around, the effect you are taking into consideration is a standard one used trought the whole manga too many times, I get that it also used for shunshin but that doesn't make it a shunshin effect

Jumping from a place to another can't be confused with shunshin, and it's not even a problem as in part 1 it a lot clear when shunshin is being used (cloud, handigns, retreat), in part two gets used in combact a few times just to close up the distance and we get the sfx, and in WA is freely avaible to who has chakra modes (A4 and Naruto)
I also think the contrast of people being on realm of KCM Naruto and not is clear but not in the same way you think so as we're discussing it



Mad Scientist said:


> Do you really think Sasuke can fine-tune his Shunshin at that point against someone that fast? It's pretty clear they were both using Shunshin throughout.
> 
> I don't see what relevance A4's after-image has. Sure, that's Shunshin. That's how the author depicted his speed there. What has that got to do with anything else? We already know what we can expect KCM Naruto's Shunshin to look like.


What's fine tuning? And why you think it's clear? If you want to add something do so just saying that is clear doesn't convince me that is clear

Idk, you said A4 after image was the same as Sasuke's one, I'd get that if those were both enhanced speed movement, but if it's shunshin it's not the case, just that



Mad Scientist said:


> I don't think that. I only brought that up because you were suggesting he wasn't using Shunshin there.
> 
> But whether they were both using Shunshin or not doesn't change the fact Naruto didn't at least move his head a little back.


Ah cool then

Sure, but not sure what's the problem with him moving his head



Mad Scientist said:


> And look at this scan. Panel 10 doesn't have such lines at all. Doesn't mean he wasn't using Shunshin there. Panel 7, Naruto is completely visible to the reader. Panel 8, this is what we can expect when looking at Shunshin-speed Gunbai. Panels 14-15, this is what we can expect when Obito is using Shunshin-speed movement.
> *Spoiler*:
> 
> 
> ...


Panel 10 doesn't have shunshin, Naruto attack has been blocked, you meant some panels before?
That's what I'm also saying, the line don't rapresent shunshin, we have shunshin with them and without them, tho it is also true that Naruto is visible there, but along with it Naruto is making a physical attack so that isn't the regularly fast shunshin as normally it blitzes physical movements, he shouldn't be able to create the rasengan, talk and make a trust, tho maybe for you that works? Not sure how you take the difference between physical movements and shunshin

Last panel Obito isn't using shunshin tho, that's the problem, if he was in movement with the same effect you'll say he's using shunshin is what you're saying and doesn't work, it's not an effect for shunshin, and you're going from restricted to KCM Naruto to Obito now?

Guess this answers my question above, Gunbai can't move at shunshin speed just cause it has a speed effect, it's just a tool commanded by physical movement, like a kunai who gets launched, if you want to say that the gunbai moved at shunshin speed you goota first prove that Obito was using shunshin there



Mad Scientist said:


> Can you explain to me why you would expect Obito to be able to react and do something mid-air when he's moving at such a fast speed in such a limited distance? When Mu evaded KCM Naruto's strike in mid-air, how would Naruto be able to pivot himself mid-evasion? There's just not enough time/space to do that.


Are you aking me about your scenario tho? I already said it can work seems like you want to question mine but I don't have the problem of Obito possibily stopping in mid air
Imagine Mu dodged Naruto when the latter was at a distance and not just behing his back, does Naruto still stabs the air where Mu was? No, but if Mu ddges last second like he did then Naruto stabs the air



Mad Scientist said:


> He couldn't move it back at all, as far as I can tell.


Nice so we agree



Mad Scientist said:


> *1.* Yeah Kamui is part of Obito's speed just as much Hiraishin is part of Minato's. They were relatively equal in overall speed. Minato himself confirmed as much. And the combat feats painted the same picture.
> 
> *3.* That's a fair point, good evidence too. Even so, Obito has demonstrated enough overall speed that KCM Naruto with 13 clones just wouldn't be able to touch him. He can phase instantly, before even 6G Gai's kick could tag his head. He was capable of _casually negging two_ KCM Narutos in a matter of moments.


1. I'm just saying FTG is faster then kamui, the point was that

3. Why 13? Naruto has co-op with the fox, He could make 1000 as a genin, 200 to train the FRS, with the fox he made chakra clocks for all the alliance and making everyone use their special justu with it while also still continuing to fight and this was after fighting a lot already, 13 is a puny number he can litterally flood him with clones


----------



## Mad Scientist (Aug 31, 2020)

trocollo said:


> But it's not enough evidence, you restricted yourself to specific istances, it's not reasonable that KCM Naruto has special rules just for him, expecially with these rules being visual effects, I could get the point if you used for example sound effects keept for shunshin, but you're giving to him a standard effect that everyone in the manga has had (Tsunade also has it for the question btw, Madara fight), this doesn't make your case a probable one, the example I made served to explain that, not to just say that those effects can be used when shunshin isn't used, taking that example, you get specifically that shunshin is used when those effects aren't, who's not true but it ended up like that cause I made a point of a small array of entryes, the moment you say "yes but only for KCM Naruto and yes but it's not always shunshin" you're making too much speculation, you shouldn't use things that may refer to one thing or another to say it's the first cause it can't be proven, cause if it's not the first but it's the second it doesn't create a problem nor any rule is broken; probability like this doesn't give soddisfacent results, I'd get it if the correlation was stronger but again, doing it like that it gets easily manipulated as per the example


It's not that these rules are specific to KCM Naruto — they're actually universal and I'll explain how soon — it's that Kishimoto has _*used these visuals repeatedly*_ to show us what to expect when KCM Naruto speed-tier characters _*are*_ using Shunshin *against opponents of a comparable speed* AND when _*they're not*_.

First, I will show that these rules are used universally.
Second, I will show even *more* examples of how they're applied to characters on KCM Naruto's speed level (because speed is relative, and KCM Naruto is the character in question, not because he's a special case).

Note that at some point, you can't just keep saying "it's not enough evidence". You will have to counter my evidence with your own, or concede, because it's not like either of us have brought out proofs for something subjective.

Before I begin, I will need to make one thing _very_ clear... "Fast" doesn't mean anything _unless_ it is being compared to something else. Speed is relative.

​
In both of those scans, we see *exactly* the same thing in terms of visual effects (not counting shadow backdrop obviously):

Lined backdrop
Lines overlaying clothes
Sound effects
Spiky bubbles on clashes
A few small black lines on edges of clothes
Does that mean PA base Naruto is moving at the same speed as RSM Naruto? Of course not. They're not even _remotely_ close. Just because one character appears fast to another doesn't necessarily mean they will always appear in that same way to characters on their speed level. Sasuke vs V1 A4 is a prime example, where just because A4's Shunshin blitzes characters like Jugo and doesn't blitz Sasuke doesn't mean A4 wasn't using the same _or even a faster speed_ against him.


*How Visual Effects Are Used Universally*
Lined Backdrops / Emphasis Lines
Every single time, this kind of backdrop is used to indicate something fast occurring or capture such a moment (or, in the case of emphasis lines, they _can_ be used in a similar way).



Small black lines / blur
The faster something is relative to things near it, in a given moment, they will generally be depicted with more small black lines or begin to blur, almost as if the latter is an exaggerated form of the first.



But, speed is relative. Why is it that KCM Naruto has the most blur/small black lines , even though that was his slowest Shunshin there? It's because the Raikage wasn't at his higher speeds yet, but also because KCM Naruto and the panel itself were both fairly large (so Kishimoto could dedicate such detail). Why does KCM Naruto have virtually no small black lines ? It's certainly not because Kishimoto somehow forgot that time. It's because KCM Naruto was moving at a speed that is no longer as fast relative to KCM Naruto's previously established speed (which were with Shunshin) or V2 A4's speed, so we know he isn't using Shunshin there. Why did Tsunade have virtually no small black lines ? Is it because Kishimoto somehow thought characters without a chakra shroud wouldn't have it even though Bee had plenty? It's because Tsunade wasn't moving at such speed. This purposeful attention to detail is as good an evidence as any to prove that Kishimoto dedicated himself in such a manner.

But it's not like Tsunade can't get close to that speed. We saw that in the Gokage fight, where characters like Madara, Tsunade and V1 A4 are somewhat relative to each other, Tsunade still didn't exhibit many small black lines. And it's not like Kishimoto forgot about them or just didn't apply them to her (because he _did_ apply them, and he applied them _systematically_ - read below).

*Spoiler*: __ 









*Top-left panel:* Had very few small black lines
*Bottom-left panel:* Had a similar amount (makes sense, similar to top-left and in same scene)
*Top-middle panel:* Had a few more than those ones (makes sense, blitzing Madara)
*Top-right panel:* Punch blurred a bit (makes sense, punching speed)
*Bottom-middle panel:* Has the most (makes sense, going all out)

*More differences between KCM Naruto tier character Shunshins & non-Shunshins*
(545) Naruto running normally.

*Spoiler*: __ 








Naruto running normally.

*Spoiler*: __ 








Yet _*the moment*_ Naruto starts moving at his fast speeds, the small black lines increase.

*Spoiler*: __ 











KCM Shunshin

*Spoiler*: __ 









Itachi, Bee, KCM Naruto

*Spoiler*: __ 









KCM Naruto's body without Shunshin.

*Spoiler*: __ 









KCM Naruto's Shunshin (relative to A3)

*Spoiler*: __ 










KCM Naruto falling, striking and moving fast (relative to Mu).

*Spoiler*: __ 










A3's fast movement (relative to base Naruto and Dodai)

*Spoiler*: __ 









SM Naruto at his fastest (relative to A3).

*Spoiler*: __ 









KCM2 Naruto running normally.

*Spoiler*: __ 









KCM Naruto Shunshin + Strike.

*Spoiler*: __ 










FKS Sasuke normal movement.

*Spoiler*: __ 









FKS  .

SM Madara's  movements.

SM Madara's .



trocollo said:


> Tsunade didn't even fight there, so no reason to give her the black lines (but actually she *Link Removed* them)


She tried to jump in and save Naruto. If she has black lines there, they're _barely_ visible and if those are the same black lines then they're super minimal in number, which is to be expected, since her speed in that moment wasn't KCM tier.



trocollo said:


> V1 A can use shunshin, ninja without chakra modes can, just saying that Cee said it like that was the moment A4 was going to use it, aganist Sasuke he used the enhanced-speed that regular V1 jinchuriki like V1 Bee have


They're both Shunshin, and .



trocollo said:


> But you sayd those signs as a special case for KCM Naruto, that's A4 and Bee


They're not a special case for Naruto. The visuals have been drawn and purposefully used in such a way that they indicate when KCM Naruto is using Shunshin _and_ when he's _not_, against characters of his speed tier. Kishimoto didn't just suddenly forget to add black lines to KCM Naruto running at the end, or to Tsunade. Their lack of small black lines were purposeful.



trocollo said:


> Panel 10 doesn't have shunshin, Naruto attack has been blocked, you meant some panels before?


Naruto had no such visuals either even  his attack was blocked. Naruto has made contact with objects in a similar manner but still exhibited such . He's even had pretty much the same attack blocked, yet  exhibited the feature. Bee and A4  each other, still had the features. Just because a panel doesn't have the feature doesn't mean the character hadn't moved at some defined speed; in such cases, the context is important.



trocollo said:


> That's what I'm also saying, the line don't rapresent shunshin, we have shunshin with them and without them, tho it is also true that Naruto is visible there, but along with it Naruto is making a physical attack so that isn't the regularly fast shunshin as normally it blitzes physical movements, he shouldn't be able to create the rasengan, talk and make a trust, tho maybe for you that works? Not sure how you take the difference between physical movements and shunshin


*1.* How would you determine whether a character is using Shunshin?
*2.* How would you determine if they're not?
*3.* So far, my system of determining whether or not KCM Naruto used Shunshin works far better than what you've suggested (that one disappears and reappears in another location, which several times isn't the case). So then, how is it that we should buy into your system of determining that, over mine?
*4.* Sasuke used Chidori during Shunshin. The Raikage has used an elbow during Shunshin, and punches. KCM Naruto is just that fast, fast enough to form a Rasengan in the time it takes to have made that distance.
*5.* Characters far faster than KCM Naruto have talked while engaged in . If that's some trait ninja are capable of, then that's just something we'll have to accept.
*6.* I thought his jump, flickering, emphasis lines, small black lines, etc., all made it very clear he was using Shunshin there. Do you really believe that KCM Naruto did not use a single Shunshin in that battle? Because that's what it's beginning to sound like.



trocollo said:


> Last panel Obito isn't using shunshin tho, that's the problem, if he was in movement with the same effect you'll say he's using shunshin is what you're saying and doesn't work, it's not an effect for shunshin, and you're going from restricted to KCM Naruto to Obito now?


His arms were enhanced via . That's how he threw his Gunbai so high so fast in order to stop KCM Naruto's Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> Guess this answers my question above, Gunbai can't move at shunshin speed just cause it has a speed effect, it's just a tool commanded by physical movement, like a kunai who gets launched, if you want to say that the gunbai moved at shunshin speed you goota first prove that Obito was using shunshin there


KCM Naruto _was_ using Shunshin there. I'm sure you don't think Shunshin-less Obito could have stopped that KCM Naruto.



trocollo said:


> They haven't proven it yet, A4 and Naruto did, we're still deciding for Obito; tho sure, what I'm explaining is why shunshin isn't used in combact, but yeah A4 is a character and people on the speed level of A4 also exist, surely I don't want to say that actually A4 doesn't use shunshin


Obito:
- blocked KCM Naruto's Shunshin with his Gunbai.
- physically dodged KCM Naruto's super fast chakra arm.
- trashed two KCM Narutos back-to-back; said KCM Narutos used Shunshin-tier speed.
- kept up with Kakashi who kept up with 4 V2 jinchuriki (3 of them trashed Naruto in 5 panels).

So how is it that we're still deciding for Obito whether or not he can keep up with KCM Naruto's Shunshin?

Why do you keep bringing up "Shunshin isn't used in combat" when I've shown plenty of times that it is (Madara, Naruto, A4, Bee, Sasuke...)?



trocollo said:


> Wee se a distortion of them, who's differen from regular body, KCM Naruto body doesn't get sprayed like that; also again no probs with SM naruto blocking it, I'd expect he'd dodge it, block it was even too less


Shunshin doesn't distort the bodies of characters. It's just the same thing Deidara did; on one panel he's visible and on the next he's a blur (Sasuke's speed coming to a halt made Deidara look faster i.e. more blurry). Since Madara can blitz SM Naruto, he _will_ appear that way because he's that fast. But it's not like Naruto didn't react to that. We've already seen that characters can be visible and undergo additional actions even when using Shunshin (FKS Sasuke). What you're failing to understand is that Madara's just too fast for Naruto there - that's why the author drew him that way. It's not because Shunshin somehow distorts the body, which it's never stated to do by the way, at least AFAIK.



trocollo said:


> My bad, I mixed the fourth scan with the third, tho sadly same response, raikage has already done the shunshin there they're at the stopping point as we have Ay punching him, if the shunshin was still going for Naruto the punch would've been outspeeded since punch speed is slower than shunshin and A didn't use it with it


KCM Naruto didn't even reach his stopping point. Do you think KCM Naruto planned to stop in the air, or did he plan on keep going and was therefore surprised by A4 being able to keep up with him? How is a Shunshin-enhanced punch slower? I mean it literally looked like a blur on panel when A4 used it. He used it because it was fast enough to intercept Naruto.



trocollo said:


> What difference does it make? It's still in kurama chakra mode, tho going by you like you think KCM2 Naruto has like that much improved shunshin compared to KCM1?
> What you mean for projectile? Obito has the shuriken in his hand
> 
> That Naruto could blitz Obito anytime with that speed but he still ends figthing on par with him


KCM2 Naruto can't blitz Obito anytime. He literally tried to do that with a huge chakra arm and failed. He was even caught by Obito with Mokuton. Obito was completely trashing KCM Naruto. Even an exhausted no-3T Kakashi physically reacted to Obito's large shuriken.



trocollo said:


> No you brought in Ashura vs Naruto, just go up with the replies to see the point discussed, I asked how you justify burst of speeds where Naruto (but even others) disappear from the secondary observers and cross large distances, tho I don't think that's a core point we can also stop it for now


Could you give some examples of these "burst speeds" to justify?



trocollo said:


> So we agree, that's what matters
> 
> We're talking about V2 A here


I was talking about V1 A4 because your original point was...


> I'm not saying that's literal teleportation but that it's too fast for other people to react to but it's possible to predict it


...which was in reference to V1 A4's Shunshin against KCM Naruto's "faster this time" Shunshin. Both that A4 and the one that was outspeeded by Sasuke were in V1. That's why I brought up Sasuke keeping up with and outspeeding A4's Shunshin, because Shunshin being "too fast for other people to react to" is completely false.



trocollo said:


> No, cause the first problem in that istance is *Link Removed*, you can increrase quantity but you first need reflexes





> my point is on the problems of increrasing speed


I think you've answered your own question 



trocollo said:


> It's not strong, it's an indicator at best, you can say it's strong when the number of cases where that effect is used without shunshin is much smaller than the number of times that effect is used with shunshin, but the number of times that effect is used whitout shunshin is a lot bigger than the number of times it was used for shunshin, you get a better proportion restricting it for KCM Naruto but doing this doesn't make sense as the only visual effect dedicated to him are the yellow flames of KCM burning around, the effect you are taking into consideration is a standard one used trought the whole manga too many times, I get that it also used for shunshin but that doesn't make it a shunshin effect


It's been made very clear that it's a strong indicator by how characters appear relative to KCM-tier speed characters when they're not moving at his speed. Hopefully my answer above clarifies this.



trocollo said:


> Jumping from a place to another can't be confused with shunshin, and it's not even a problem as in part 1 it a lot clear when shunshin is being used (cloud, handigns, retreat), in part two gets used in combact a few times just to close up the distance and we get the sfx, and in WA is freely avaible to who has chakra modes (A4 and Naruto)
> I also think the contrast of people being on realm of KCM Naruto and not is clear but not in the same way you think so as we're discussing it


It was made   in Part 1 too. No fancy stuff like hand signs are always necessary for a D-rank technique.

Shunshin is just an enhancement technique. That's all. That's what the  says: If seen by an ordinary [character], it would seem as if the user has teleported. In reality — _this_ is the conjunction; it is implying _the same isn't true for non-ordinary characters_, but of course non-ordinary is also a relative quality — the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds.

When Shunshin is used in combat, no Shunshin user just stands and moves. They have to actually push forward e.g. with their feet, as is shown several times (Naruto, A4, Madara).



trocollo said:


> What's fine tuning? And why you think it's clear? If you want to add something do so just saying that is clear doesn't convince me that is clear
> 
> Idk, you said A4 after image was the same as Sasuke's one, I'd get that if those were both enhanced speed movement, but if it's shunshin it's not the case, just that


A4 used Shunshin there. Sasuke also used Shunshin. Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree that V1 A4 used his go-to move which looked super fast, why?

Shunshin  enhanced speed. They both used Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> Sure, but not sure what's the problem with him moving his head


In this manga, when something is flying towards the head, characters dodge such things. The fact that KCM Naruto couldn't even turn his head to the side or back shows how fast Obito was. You _could_ argue that he fully trusted Gai to get Tobi, but in such a life-threatening moment, and with Obito right in his face, given Obito's speed, I just don't buy that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Aug 31, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> It's not that these rules are specific to KCM Naruto — they're actually universal and I'll explain how soon — it's that Kishimoto has _*used these visuals repeatedly*_ to show us what to expect when KCM Naruto speed-tier characters _*are*_ using Shunshin *against opponents of a comparable speed* AND when _*they're not*_.
> 
> First, I will show that these rules are used universally.
> Second, I will show even *more* examples of how they're applied to characters on KCM Naruto's speed level (because speed is relative, and KCM Naruto is the character in question, not because he's a special case).
> ...


That's a lot of work you did there, but for before, I explained why it wasn't enough evidence, it's not like I just said it and left you with it



Mad Scientist said:


> Before I begin, I will need to make one thing _very_ clear... "Fast" doesn't mean anything _unless_ it is being compared to something else. Speed is relative.
> 
> ​In both of those scans, we see *exactly* the same thing in terms of visual effects (not counting shadow backdrop obviously):
> 
> ...


Yeah we need a comparison, I'm not going to say genin are as fast as A4 cause of the effects

Wait you also think shunshin was being used in both of these istances? Cause they were exchanging hits in cqc

The sound effects are specific tho, usually a pure shunshin has the same kanji used for FTG, but happens a lot of times that it gets covered by the sound of the landing on the ground (like also for FTG)
Are the spiky bubbles the yellow things between Naruto and Tendo? As you said those indicate a clash not a shunshin, actually then noticed one in the panels you put below on Deidara, that indicated his reaction
Lined backdrop, lined clothes and black lines are fine, they reflect speed, tho they can also reflect things like *Link Removed* to enhance a scene

That's different, A4 isn't a new character when he fights Sasuke, we can assume he used the same speed he used aganist jugo, he'll then proced to increrase his shroud and also ue actual shunshin after that, so his speed is following an increrasing pattern



Mad Scientist said:


> *How Visual Effects Are Used Universally*
> Lined Backdrops / Emphasis Lines
> Every single time, this kind of backdrop is used to indicate something fast occurring or capture such a moment (or, in the case of emphasis lines, they _can_ be used in a similar way).


Not everytime, these effects are also used to emphatize scenes with pressure, an example is already in the first panels in your image, the strong punch of Kisame got centered by it, but there is also Kakashi's clone getting near Ashura's blade and on Kakahsi's eye when he'll do the final kamui, here's other  (I can search for more if neded)
Then there's also that not everthing that is happening fast has these effects, they aren't tied to every fast action, like *Link Removed*, or *Link Removed*, in the last one you can see that it's not used for the fast slash but it's used for the emotion-pressure



Mad Scientist said:


> Small black lines / blur
> The faster something is relative to things near it, in a given moment, they will generally be depicted with more small black lines or begin to blur, almost as if the latter is an exaggerated form of the first.


Agree there, generally black lines that can also end up in a blur and are frquently used in cqc exchanges that are usually fast



Mad Scientist said:


> But, speed is relative. Why is it that KCM Naruto has the most blur/small black lines , even though that was his slowest Shunshin there? It's because the Raikage wasn't at his higher speeds yet, but also because KCM Naruto and the panel itself were both fairly large (so Kishimoto could dedicate such detail). Why does KCM Naruto have virtually no small black lines ? It's certainly not because Kishimoto somehow forgot that time. It's because KCM Naruto was moving at a speed that is no longer as fast relative to KCM Naruto's previously established speed (which were with Shunshin) or V2 A4's speed, so we know he isn't using Shunshin there. Why did Tsunade have virtually no small black lines ? Is it because Kishimoto somehow thought characters without a chakra shroud wouldn't have it even though Bee had plenty? It's because Tsunade wasn't moving at such speed. This purposeful attention to detail is as good an evidence as any to prove that Kishimoto dedicated himself in such a manner.
> 
> But it's not like Tsunade can't get close to that speed. We saw that in the Gokage fight, where characters like Madara, Tsunade and V1 A4 are somewhat relative to each other, Tsunade still didn't exhibit many small black lines. And it's not like Kishimoto forgot about them or just didn't apply them to her (because he _did_ apply them, and he applied them _systematically_ - read below).
> *Spoiler*:
> ...


KCM wasn't even using shunshin where he didn't have the lines, when he first used shunshin he was faster, but what you said is also true, cause to enhance the speed of A4 Kishi gives the lines only to him to spell who is the fast one in that panel
Tsinade got more aganist Madara cause she there was also a protagonist actively figthing, she didn't made the attacks of the panels you posted here when she was with A4 and Naruto, she just stood there all the time



Mad Scientist said:


> *More differences between KCM Naruto tier character Shunshins & non-Shunshins*
> (545) Naruto running normally.
> *Spoiler*:
> 
> ...


Before this I'd expect the connection with shunshin, fast movement =/= shunshin, what you said was that these effects were used for fast movements, so all we know is that we're in presence of a fast movement not specifically of a shunshin; like I agree these scans show fast movements with relativity to something but you can't get shunshin from them

Naruto:
What changed is him entering a fight, tho you can still get the black lines in a run if there was some kind of haste that Kishi wants to portray with it, even *Link Removed*, as the rapresent movement
The scan where you say Naruto used shunshin isn't clear, he could and could've not used shunshin there

Itachi, Bee, Naruto:
Gues you proly want to say that Naruto used shunshin when he fought cqc in with Itachi? But we see they exchange in cqc, not using shunshin, they are fast cqc movements

Naruto vs A3:
Again not clear if in panel 7 that was or wasn't shunshin, but I don't see what's the problem even supposing it's shunshin, as the backdrop is on even when shunshin isn't used

Naruto vs Mu:
Naruto didn't use shunshin there, he falls on Mu and the second time he attack him by propelling himslef with the chakr arm, and you see how all the effects are still there, Naruto is moving fast in a real relative way tho, as Mu is that same speed as

A3 vs Dodai:
Yeah A3 is the one that's speeding there, Naruto and Dodai are slower, then sure with SM Naruto pulls off fast movements (relative to A3 yeah)

Naruto:
Sure, but shunshin + strike, cause he first appear with shunshin in panel 6 and then it's all physical movement with the strike, with Obito he's also not using shunshin, he's attacking him with a physical movement, still agree that is going on some fast cqc in those istances

Sasuke:
That's not his shunshin we don't agree on that

Madara:
Yep so another example of backdrop used for physical movements and not for the shunshin




Mad Scientist said:


> She tried to jump in and save Naruto. If she has black lines there, they're _barely_ visible and if those are the same black lines then they're super minimal in number, which is to be expected, since her speed in that moment wasn't KCM tier.


Usually from the back you get less but compensate with the lined clothing, tho point is just that those lines rapresent movement, Tsunade speeded up and moved so she gets the lines, I see that now you're taking the relative thing too far, take Kakashi vs tam 7, both Naruto and Sasuke fought with Kakashi with both of them having speed lines, that doesn't mean they are in the same tier of speed but indicated that a fast movement happened



Mad Scientist said:


> They're both Shunshin, and .


Not really, take Sasuke using chakra *Link Removed* to get enhanced speed



Mad Scientist said:


> They're not a special case for Naruto. The visuals have been drawn and purposefully used in such a way that they indicate when KCM Naruto is using Shunshin _and_ when he's _not_, against characters of his speed tier. Kishimoto didn't just suddenly forget to add black lines to KCM Naruto running at the end, or to Tsunade. Their lack of small black lines were purposeful.


And like we see in the whole manga the purpouse is a punch, a jump, some kind of acceleration of fast movement of some sort, not just shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> Naruto had no such visuals either even  his attack was blocked. Naruto has made contact with objects in a similar manner but still exhibited such . He's even had pretty much the same attack blocked, yet  exhibited the feature. Bee and A4  each other, still had the features. Just because a panel doesn't have the feature doesn't mean the character hadn't moved at some defined speed; in such cases, the context is important.


I just said he isn't using shunshin cause he's standing still, his attack has been blocked, in panel 10 he isn't moving into a shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> *1.* How would you determine whether a character is using Shunshin?
> *2.* How would you determine if they're not?
> *3.* So far, my system of determining whether or not KCM Naruto used Shunshin works far better than what you've suggested (that one disappears and reappears in another location, which several times isn't the case). So then, how is it that we should buy into your system of determining that, over mine?
> *4.* Sasuke used Chidori during Shunshin. The Raikage has used an elbow during Shunshin, and punches. KCM Naruto is just that fast, fast enough to form a Rasengan in the time it takes to have made that distance.
> ...


1-2. From the scene mostly, what we know from shunshin is that it appears as teleportation and that is faster than regular physical movements such as the ones used in cqc, it's also usable to attack just by people with very high reactions
So if I just see a cqc exchange with a backdrop I don't think people are casting shunshin while exchanging punches, when you cast shunshin you jump from your location to your destination and then do what you want to do, it's a movement justu that you use for movement, not a state in which people fight while living in a new speed space, only one who did this is A4 and he just moved a punch while doing shunshin, and that's his fastest move, in his other moves he either uses only shunshin while maintaining the attack position from before (*Link Removed*) or attacks after having done the shunshin (*Link Removed* *Link Removed*, *Link Removed*)
Another thing you can do with shunshin is intercepting attacks, like when Haku took the blow for Zabuza or Naruto stopped Obito's and Madara's attack on the masters, but Haku could only become a shield (like also Choza), differently than Naruto who was able to take a position to stop the attack with his chakra arms

3. The feeling is mutual, but reversed , your sistem doesn't work, all figthing scenes are full of the enhancing lines, that doesn't mean that we should take everything as shunshin just to be sure, it's not the way of the author to depict it, the way the autor was stated in the DB and showed counteless times trought all the manga, we have from the start of part 1 people disappearing away thanks to shunshin and I still have to see and count these several times where it wasn't the case, but even assuming there were, since you go for probability mineis more probable as how many istances you think there are in the manag where you have lined backdrop and not shunshin? Decisevely far too many respectively to when shunshin is used)

4. No Sasuke's chidori isn't done uder a shunshin, it's just enhanced speed as per Kakashi, he didn't use shunshin in gaiden but enhanced speed, A4 used elbow during enhanced speed, he's fast at making the rasengan but he did it after the shunshin

5. The clones wheren't using shunshin but flyght, they're free to talk, if RSM Naruto uses shunshin he won't talk in it *Link Removed*

6. He used shunshin, but to close up distances not to make cqc attacks, I've specified to you to which panels I think Naruto used shunshin when I asked you where you thought he used it in the Obito fight



Mad Scientist said:


> His arms were enhanced via . That's how he threw his Gunbai so high so fast in order to stop KCM Naruto's Shunshin.


But he wasn't using shunshin so he has no enhancements to the trown speed



Mad Scientist said:


> KCM Naruto _was_ using Shunshin there. I'm sure you don't think Shunshin-less Obito could have stopped that KCM Naruto.


I simply think KCM Naruto wasn't using shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> Obito:
> - blocked KCM Naruto's Shunshin with his Gunbai.
> - physically dodged KCM Naruto's super fast chakra arm.
> - trashed two KCM Narutos back-to-back; said KCM Narutos used Shunshin-tier speed.
> ...


- Let's go at it like this, Naruto used *Link Removed* when he attacked the gedo statue, *Link Removed* and that blocked him, so Obito's trowing speed is already faster than A4, but then Naruto gets a bigger shroud and *Link Removed* *Link Removed* and you easily broke any scale, you go from A4 having one of the fastest shunshin to that shunshin getting getting intercepted by trowables of Obito, then you get Naruto trashing his precedent max speed by trashing the speed of Obito's attacks; and no, Obito didn't use shunshin to trow gunbai just like he didn't use shunshin to attack Kakashi, shunshin is a justu to move your body in another location I'd get it if he trew the gunbai while under shunshin, but he stayed still
So no, at best he used the shunshin to make the jump
- Still slower than shunshin
- Just the clone used it and to get near him, not in the attack
- As long naruto didn't use shunshin to get way and they trashed that attemp it's fine

I'm also suprised we're still deciding about Obito capable of keeping up with KCM shunshin and using shunshin in the fight, but tecnically we could try resolving the thing by also analizing the Obito vs Kakashi fight where I say none of them used shunshin while you'd say they used them all the time

That's not plenty of times, and I prolly created some confusion, when I say not in combact I mean literal combact, as touching them to attack, not as the istance being a combact, as if that was the case then it'd be obviusly wrong as nearly everytime someone used shunshin was in a fight (escape, sometimes intercept), anyway these names checks exception for Sasuke, nearest he got was when he closed some distance with Deidara



Mad Scientist said:


> Shunshin doesn't distort the bodies of characters. It's just the same thing Deidara did; on one panel he's visible and on the next he's a blur (Sasuke's speed coming to a halt made Deidara look faster i.e. more blurry). Since Madara can blitz SM Naruto, he _will_ appear that way because he's that fast. But it's not like Naruto didn't react to that. We've already seen that characters can be visible and undergo additional actions even when using Shunshin (FKS Sasuke). What you're failing to understand is that Madara's just too fast for Naruto there - that's why the author drew him that way. It's not because Shunshin somehow distorts the body, which it's never stated to do by the way, at least AFAIK.


Naruto isn't a blur like Deidara there, I don't even know if Deidara actually used shunshin to evade that but Naruto doesn't even have the effects Deidara had
We disagree on FKS Sasuke
Madara is too fast for SM Naruto cause he used shunshin, as normally he isn't too fast for SM Naruto



Mad Scientist said:


> KCM Naruto didn't even reach his stopping point. Do you think KCM Naruto planned to stop in the air, or did he plan on keep going and was therefore surprised by A4 being able to keep up with him? How is a Shunshin-enhanced punch slower? I mean it literally looked like a blur on panel when A4 used it. He used it because it was fast enough to intercept Naruto.


I guess it looks strange when you think about it being in the air, but Naruto chosed that elevation point, after that there is the falling part, like we see that Naruto and A stops there and then A hits him, it's not happening during the shunshin, still if you want we can also suppose that happened during the shunshin as A4 can react to that, same way Naruto also can the problem is with the others



Mad Scientist said:


> KCM2 Naruto can't blitz Obito anytime. He literally tried to do that with a huge chakra arm and failed. He was even caught by Obito with Mokuton. Obito was completely trashing KCM Naruto. Even an exhausted no-3T Kakashi physically reacted to Obito's large shuriken.


His shunshin blitzed him that's the difference, while figthing in cqc Nartuto can't blitz him I agree



Mad Scientist said:


> Could you give some examples of these "burst speeds" to justify?


The one you brough with Naruto and Ashura is one, I was referring to the one of the reply just above tho, KCM2 Naruto stopping Obito from a landside



Mad Scientist said:


> I was talking about V1 A4 because your original point was...
> ...which was in reference to V1 A4's Shunshin against KCM Naruto's "faster this time" Shunshin. Both that A4 and the one that was outspeeded by Sasuke were in V1. That's why I brought up Sasuke keeping up with and outspeeding A4's Shunshin, because Shunshin being "too fast for other people to react to" is completely false.


Well we disagree on A vs Sasuke, so we first need to resolve that, still A can react to shunshin, but in general people can't



Mad Scientist said:


> I think you've answered your own question


Like how? I'm telling you that you that there is a problem with the refexes when increrasing your speed



Mad Scientist said:


> It's been made very clear that it's a strong indicator by how characters appear relative to KCM-tier speed characters when they're not moving at his speed. Hopefully my answer above clarifies this.


Your answer above clarified your thought process but was missing what you said here, the connection with effects that rapresent a general fast movement to rapresent specifially shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> It was made   in Part 1 too. No fancy stuff like hand signs are always necessary for a D-rank technique.
> 
> Shunshin is just an enhancement technique. That's all. That's what the  says: If seen by an ordinary [character], it would seem as if the user has teleported. In reality — _this_ is the conjunction; it is implying _the same isn't true for non-ordinary characters_, but of course non-ordinary is also a relative quality — the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds.
> 
> When Shunshin is used in combat, no Shunshin user just stands and moves. They have to actually push forward e.g. with their feet, as is shown several times (Naruto, A4, Madara).


Didn't say they were always necessary, they were some of the example that help getting when it's used

That's actually inconsistent, sometimes we're shown them pushing with the feets some other times not, but maybe we could make another distinction, even tho I'm not sure if it's the cae but could be possible that when people push with the feet it's enhanching their legs, where ehen they don't push they're actually using shunshin? Like you get how FTG is called shunshin? Maybe that's also the case I'll need to check a lot of scans but this third choice may make sense



Mad Scientist said:


> A4 used Shunshin there. Sasuke also used Shunshin. Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree that V1 A4 used his go-to move which looked super fast, why?
> 
> Shunshin  enhanced speed. They both used Shunshin.


Cause Cee said it, and that's all we need, as since we're discusuing of the effects without Cee we would just not be able to tell if that was shunshin or enhanced movement

It's a special way to enhance speed, you can also gather chakra in your feet to enhance speed, but you're not using shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> In this manga, when something is flying towards the head, characters dodge such things. The fact that KCM Naruto couldn't even turn his head to the side or back shows how fast Obito was. You _could_ argue that he fully trusted Gai to get Tobi, but in such a life-threatening moment, and with Obito right in his face, given Obito's speed, I just don't buy that.


Trowables can't change their direction mid flight, Obito's hand can, Naruto's head is slower than Obito's hand, so surely in cqc Obito can touch Naruto's head


----------



## Mad Scientist (Sep 1, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Wait you also think shunshin was being used in both of these istances? Cause they were exchanging hits in cqc


Shunshin would probably have been used in the latter, but it doesn't matter since that wasn't my point.



trocollo said:


> The sound effects are specific tho, *usually a pure shunshin has the same kanji used for FTG*, but happens a lot of times that it gets covered by the sound of the landing on the ground (like also for FTG)


In that case, let's see some evidence to prove that.

I can show you that there are _numerous_ instances in which that SFX isn't used for Shunshin, or in a few cases no SFX are used at all.

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trocollo said:


> Are the spiky bubbles the yellow things between Naruto and Tendo? As you said those indicate a clash not a shunshin, actually then noticed one in the panels you put below on Deidara, that indicated his reaction


My point isn't that they're indicating Shunshin, so that's irrelevant. The point is that the scenes are virtually identical except for the characters. Characters can look like they're moving at "normal" speed, but in reality their speeds compared to other characters may well be and often _will_ be _completely_ different; it's not that RSM Naruto isn't moving at flash speed there — he _is_, if compared to KCM Naruto for example, but if compared to Juudara why would he look like a flash? Why would the author depict him as a flash or blur etc. if his opponent is in his speed tier?



trocollo said:


> That's different, A4 isn't a new character when he fights Sasuke, we can assume he used the same speed he used aganist jugo, he'll then proced to increrase his shroud and also ue actual shunshin after that, so his speed is following an increrasing pattern


Why would you assume he's using the same speed he used against Jugo when he was up against his faster superior? In the KCM Naruto fight, it was made very clear that A4 could incrementally increase his speed but still stay in a "V1" state. That's the most likely thing that happened against Sasuke.



trocollo said:


> Not everytime, these effects are also used to emphatize scenes with pressure, an example is already in the first panels in your image, the strong punch of Kisame got centered by it, but there is also Kakashi's clone getting near Ashura's blade and on Kakahsi's eye when he'll do the final kamui,


They _can_ emphasise things like pressure alone, but overwhelmingly what I've found is they reflect on speed.

Kisame's "strength" isn't the only thing being emphasised there. It's also if not primarily the speed of his punch, given how his fist and clothes are starting to blur.

Kakashi getting near Asura's blade is an emphasis on speed - refer to the panels beforehand, and to the blur / SBLs (small black lines) drawn over his body.



> here's other  (I can search for more if neded)


Look at how many SBLs are covering Tobirama, SM Naruto and Juubito. It's because they are emphasising speed as Kishimoto captured that super fast moment.

A4 _was_ moving fast in that panel, because Kishimoto captured the part that shows him _during_ transformation. And even if he wasn't, it doesn't matter because there will be a few things that don't fit sometimes.

And as for the last panel, sure there are moments where solely things like pressure can be emphasised, but it's overwhelmingly used to reflect speed.

You're going to need to show _a lot_ more evidence it's not mostly used for speed because I have much more in store. I had believed this would be self-evident.



> Then there's also that not everthing that is happening fast has these effects, they aren't tied to every fast action, like *Link Removed*, or *Link Removed*, in the last one you can see that it's not used for the fast slash but it's used for the emotion-pressure


That Minato saving Kakashi one doesn't even have backdrop lines.

Shikamaru was _clearly_ captured in a moment in which he was moving fast. Characters can make very short movements, and if their look is captured in that moment, they can appear with such visuals.



trocollo said:


> KCM wasn't even using shunshin where he didn't have the lines, when he first used shunshin he was faster, but what you said is also true, cause to enhance the speed of A4 Kishi gives the lines only to him to spell who is the fast one in that panel


Exactly. When KCM Naruto _wasn't_ moving at previous speeds (which were all enhanced by Shunshin), Kishimoto made an intentional, purposeful decision _not_ to draw several SBLs over him. Kishimoto literally had _four_ chances () in which he _could_ have drawn such lines if he wanted to. This _strongly_ suggests, in accordance with the blur/SBL rule that he universally established, he is using such visuals purposefully to showcase what to expect when looking at KCM Naruto's faster speeds (i.e. his Shunshin speeds) and his slower speeds.



> Tsinade got more aganist Madara cause she there was also a protagonist actively figthing, she didn't made the attacks of the panels you posted here when she was with A4 and Naruto, she just stood there all the time


She didn't have many against Madara overall, and there was clearly a linear of the emphasis on such SBLs based on how fast she was moving. This is beginning to make it very clear just how intentionally these SBLs were being used.



trocollo said:


> Before this I'd expect the connection with shunshin, fast movement =/= shunshin, what you said was that these effects were used for fast movements, so all we know is that we're in presence of a fast movement not specifically of a shunshin; like I agree these scans show fast movements with relativity to something but you can't get shunshin from them


 = fast movement (obviously have to always consider the context in which such phrases are used). Look at the images; they show the differences between normal movement and fast movement.



trocollo said:


> Naruto:
> What changed is him entering a fight, tho you can still get the black lines in a run if there was some kind of haste that Kishi wants to portray with it, even *Link Removed*, as the rapresent movement


There may be a few instances of the SBLs being used to emphasise something else, but overwhelmingly it seems to be emphasising fast speeds.

And how do you know Naruto was not captured moving in a fast moment there? Just beforehand, Naruto was almost parallel with Tsunade, then he ended up quite a bit further, passing the smoke to the point A4 isn't even visible. The emphasis lines on the ground also suggest he wasn't slow in that captured moment. There's also that _whack_ SFX.

Naruto looked like a  to a slower character when he was _leaving_ and _not engaging in battle_. Why did he not blur like that against A4? It's because A4's closer to Naruto in speed compared to that Aburame guy.



trocollo said:


> 1-2. From the scene mostly, what we know from shunshin is that it appears as teleportation and that is faster than regular physical movements such as the ones used in cqc, it's also usable to attack just by people with very high reactions


We both believe Shunshin is faster than regular movements. Where you and I are differing, according to your own answer here, is that you believe Shunshin appears as teleportation or like teleportation, and while Shunshin _can_ appear as or like teleportation against characters that aren't very fast, _*it does not appear*_ like that to us or to characters when such speed is pitted against characters who can perceive or keep up with it (at least it doesn't appear like that often), as I've shown countless times.

The idea that KCM Naruto always moves like a flash when using Shunshin, as if he has teleported, is completely false. First of all, there isn't a "yellow flash effect" every time he uses Shunshin [, , , , , ]. When characters of a similar speed are travelling at relative speeds, the author often shows them visibly keeping up with each other [, , , , , , , ], even though we know many of these characters would appear like a flash when they are up against much slower opponents or if the author is conveying the battle from the eyes of a slower spectator. Just because characters don't look like a flash — whatever you think the manga makes that look like — doesn't necessarily mean they aren't using Shunshin. The same Bee that described the slowest version of KCM Naruto's Shunshin like a flash, kept up with a Raikage that was moving even _faster_ than that speed [, , ], as Naruto was continually improving upon that speed at  point.



> So if I just see a cqc exchange with a backdrop I don't think people are casting shunshin while exchanging punches, when you cast shunshin you jump from your location to your destination and then do what you want to do, it's a movement justu that you use for movement, not a state in which people fight while living in a new speed space, only one who did this is A4 and he just moved a punch while doing shunshin, and that's his fastest move, in his other moves he either uses only shunshin while maintaining the attack position from before (*Link Removed*) or attacks after having done the shunshin (*Link Removed* *Link Removed*, *Link Removed*)


The Shunshin used in combat doesn't teleport people. If that were the case, characters could just assume some stance, activate Shunshin and appear somewhere like a Hiraishin user, meaning KCM Naruto with his chakra arm outstretched could have just flickered away, but of course he couldn't since that's not how it works. We see that characters have to physically put in effort to move, like Madara, Naruto, Bee and A4 kicking off the ground. Shunshin increases movement speed, which means a character can _run_ faster, which in turn means that they can _kick_ faster (shouldn't be a surprise since their entire body is vitalized with chakra), which in turn means they can _strike_ faster, which is what we see A4 and Madara etc. do.

If striking speed was unaffected by Shunshin, then:

A4 shouldn't have been able to punch KCM Naruto mid-Shunshin before they collided into each other, as such a punch would only be around as fast as the one which the likes of Suigetsu could flicker to and physically block.
Sasuke would have been bulldozed by A4 since the speed at which his muscles could push his Chidori-wielding arm forward wouldn't be able to keep up with his own Shunshin speed.
Madara wouldn't have been able to turn his feet and blitz Naruto and Sai in such a manner.
Young A4 wouldn't be able to fully throw his punch forward in the time it took to reach his destination to Minato having just finished Hiraishin.
Hebi Sasuke wouldn't be able to take out his sword and swing it mid-Shunshin.
KCM Naruto wouldn't be able to react to A4 and block his punch mid-Shunshin.
A4 in your scan wouldn't have been able to swing his arm in time to hit the Susano even though we know that's what he was going to do.
I appreciate that just a lined backdrop and CQC wouldn't suffice to be a reliable enough system to determine whether Shunshin is being used, but those are not just the only features in our assessments.



trocollo said:


> Another thing you can do with shunshin is intercepting attacks, like when Haku took the blow for Zabuza or Naruto stopped Obito's and Madara's attack on the masters, but Haku could only become a shield (like also Choza), differently than Naruto who was able to take a position to stop the attack with his chakra arms


I know that's possible, I don't see the relevance here.



trocollo said:


> 3. The feeling is mutual, but reversed , your sistem doesn't work, all figthing scenes are full of the enhancing lines, that doesn't mean that we should take everything as shunshin just to be sure, it's not the way of the author to depict it, the way the autor was stated in the DB and showed counteless times trought all the manga,


All fighting scenes aren't full of enhancing lines.

Look at the SBLs on .

Compare Tsunade .

Compare Tsunade and A4 .

Compare them to .

Compare them to .

Compare  to .

Compare how .


There's a very clear pattern being followed.



> we have from the start of part 1 people disappearing away thanks to shunshin and I still have to see and count these several times where it wasn't the case, but even assuming there were, since you go for probability mineis more probable as how many istances you think there are in the manag where you have lined backdrop and not shunshin? Decisevely far too many respectively to when shunshin is used)


Asuma, for example, appeared to disappear and reappear when blitzing Sound ninja with Shunshin. Do you think Asuma just suddenly forgot how to use Shunshin against Hidan, or Kisame? No. They're just fast enough that they don't make Asuma's movements look like teleportation, which is what the databook alludes to.

P1 Kakashi casually blitzed various ninja. Why didn't he blitz Zabuza easily too? Is it because he somehow forgot how to use Shunshin or move fast? No. It's because Zabuza was on his speed level.

VOTE Naruto was blitzing Sasuke. Did Naruto somehow forget how to use that speed? Did Kishimoto forget to make Naruto look like a blur? No. Sasuke just got faster.


What you're doing is looking at the visuals of characters significantly faster than others and attributing just that as Shunshin indicators, when even Part 1 has showed us that Shunshin _isn't_ always of such description. _Of course to fodder_, it's going to look like the faster ninja is moving at teleportation speed, and of course Kishimoto would depict it in such a manner, but to ninja on the same level, it won't, which is why it doesn't. It's not that characters somehow forgot how to use a D-rank technique, they're just fighting opponents on their speed level.



> The scan where you say Naruto used shunshin isn't clear, he could and could've not used shunshin there


It's very clear. Tell me what's more likely:

*Naruto didn't use Shunshin...* because he didn't disappear and reappear? He did. Because he didn't have the Hiraishin SFX? Not necessary.
*Naruto did use Shunshin*. Completely blitzed that guy during his mid-movement, with huge SFX, several SBLs, darker KCM edges in colour, backdrop coloured to draw attention to Naruto, several emphasis lines, Naruto moved so fast the guy is blurry even though Naruto wasn't visible in prior panels, and the whole thing taking place almost _exactly_ like Naruto's Shunshin , which by the way _does_ have the SFX used in illustrating Hiraishin.



trocollo said:


> That's not plenty of times, and I prolly created some confusion, when I say not in combact I mean literal combact, as touching them to attack, not as the istance being a combact, as if that was the case then it'd be obviusly wrong as nearly everytime someone used shunshin was in a fight (escape, sometimes intercept), anyway these names checks exception for Sasuke, nearest he got was when he closed some distance with Deidara


How are those three examples that check not enough to demonstrate that Shunshin can be used to physically attack characters? In any case, I've provided plenty of examples so far.

Just to list some quickly:

Kakashi vs Asura
Madara vs Naruto and Sai
A4 vs Naruto
Naruto vs fodder
Tsunade vs Madara
RSM Naruto vs Juudara
Sasuke vs Juudara
Asuma vs Sound
Tobirama vs SM Madara
Itachi vs KCM Naruto
Kabuto vs Itachi
KCM Naruto vs Obito
KCM2 Naruto vs Obito and Madara
SM Jiraiya vs Human



trocollo said:


> Not really, take Sasuke using chakra *Link Removed* to get enhanced speed





trocollo said:


> Cause Cee said it, and that's all we need, as since we're discusuing of the effects without Cee we would just not be able to tell if that was shunshin or enhanced movement
> 
> It's a special way to enhance speed, you can also gather chakra in your feet to enhance speed, but you're not using shunshin


Shunshin _enhances movement speed_ by vitalizing the body with chakra - that's literally what the DB says it does. Shunshin _is_ enhanced movement.

What do you mean by "not really"? The databook literally counters the idea that the user teleports, by clarifying that the user vitalizes their body with chakra and moves at super speeds. We see this even in Part 1.

Sure Sakura can channel chakra to her legs to boost her jump. Just because characters can also do that and not necessarily use Shunshin doesn't mean V1 A4 was somehow not using Shunshin.

*1.* Cee said that Sasuke's sharingan wouldn't be able to keep up with V1 A4, after noting that it was impressive Taka was keeping up as well as they were. Sasuke's perception and reflexes are >> Suigetsu/Jugo's. So for Cee to believe that Sasuke wouldn't be able to keep up with V1 A4, _he MUST _be indicating that the Raikage will use not only Shunshin on Sasuke, but probably an even faster version — and why not? It's Sasuke he'd be up against. As such, why do you think V1 A4 wouldn't have used Shunshin against him?

*2.* A4's go-to move is Shunshin. It's what he does pretty much every single time. Why on Earth wouldn't he have used Shunshin against Sasuke even though he used it against the likes of Jugo? A4 was even angry about Sasuke because of his sharingan.

*3.* Look at the ... and please explain to me how that is not both of them using Shunshin?

*4.* Cee saying that V2 A4 is going to use Shunshin — _in the context of using that to combat the MS_ — doesn't necessarily mean that's the only time A4 was going to use Shunshin. Evidently, V1 A4 used Shunshin against Madara, and KCM Naruto. That's just his standard mode of operation. So then, how is Cee's words proof or even suggestive of V1 A4 not having used Shunshin against Sasuke?

*5.* Sasuke used Shunshin to attack A4 literally moments beforehand (as indicated by the SFX, backdrop, etc.), but the sword bounced off. So, Sasuke established that he knows he needs to use Shunshin to keep up with / outspeed A4. In that case, why wouldn't he have used Shunshin in his following attack? Do you really believe that he believed a *non-Shunshin* Chidori would pierce A4 when a *Shunshin lightning Kusanagi* failed from the back?



trocollo said:


> Sasuke:
> That's not his shunshin we don't agree on that


Do you think Sasuke's base is fast enough to outspeed V1 A4's Shunshin? Because I (and Cee) certainly don't.



trocollo said:


> Itachi, Bee, Naruto:
> Gues you proly want to say that Naruto used shunshin when he fought cqc in with Itachi? But we see they exchange in cqc, not using shunshin, they are fast cqc movements


They are using Shunshin just like Madara used Shunshin to blitz SM Naruto who was able to physically block, like Sasuke performing steps in between his Shunshin-aided collision with A4, like Sasuke trying to slice Deidara after Shunshin movements.

For a hint, look at how surprised Bee is despite Nagato's warning and knowing their enemies had entered combat, look at how blurred KCM Naruto and Itachi and their attacks are, look at how fast Itachi was (_shoom_) when landing, look at how Itachi blurs completely when evading Bee, look at the several lined backdrops.



trocollo said:


> Naruto vs A3:
> Again not clear if in panel 7 that was or wasn't shunshin, but I don't see what's the problem even supposing it's shunshin, as the backdrop is on even when shunshin isn't used


So A3 dodged KCM Naruto's FRS _twice_ and you think it's _unclear_ whether KCM Naruto used Shunshin there...? Even despite all the visual indicators (SFX, blur, backdrop, how fast he looks)?



trocollo said:


> Naruto vs Mu:
> Naruto didn't use shunshin there, he falls on Mu and the second time he attack him by propelling himslef with the chakr arm, and you see how all the effects are still there, Naruto is moving fast in a real relative way tho, as Mu is that same speed as


Naruto _might_ not be using Shunshin, but considering the strong visuals and the fact that Mu is fairly fast compared to the important characters on that battlefield, Naruto most likely was using Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> A3 vs Dodai:
> Yeah A3 is the one that's speeding there, Naruto and Dodai are slower, then sure with SM Naruto pulls off fast movements (relative to A3 yeah)


Notice how A3's slower attack starts to blur against , but against  even A3's faster attack doesn't blur as much — that's because base Naruto < SM Naruto in speed. Then, notice how A3 is totally non-blurry when  was trying to blitz him (because SM Naruto < KCM Naruto)?

This kind of careful attention to detail is impressively consistent.



trocollo said:


> Naruto:
> Sure, but shunshin + strike, cause he first appear with shunshin in panel 6 and then it's all physical movement with the strike, with Obito he's also not using shunshin, he's attacking him with a physical movement, still agree that is going on some fast cqc in those istances


It was all Shunshin. Do you think Naruto just suddenly slowed down in panel 7 despite how blurry he appeared? Even though he hadn't reached his destination?



trocollo said:


> Madara:
> Yep so another example of backdrop used for physical movements and not for the shunshin


Backdrop can be used for both, sure. What I was trying to draw attention to is the fact that SM Madara, when using Shunshin, had considerably more SBLs compared to himself when seemingly not.



trocollo said:


> Usually from the back you get less but compensate with the lined clothing, tho point is just that those lines rapresent movement, Tsunade speeded up and moved so she gets the lines, I see that now you're taking the relative thing too far, take Kakashi vs tam 7, both Naruto and Sasuke fought with Kakashi with both of them having speed lines, that doesn't mean they are in the same tier of speed but indicated that a fast movement happened


I wasn't referring to the longer lines overlaid into their clothes at all.

Regarding Tsunade's back having fewer lines because it's her back... Look at , , , , and it's nothing to do with hair since both  and Tsunade's hair are blonde, and .



trocollo said:


> And like we see in the whole manga the purpouse is a punch, a jump, some kind of acceleration of fast movement of some sort, not just shunshin


I know there are universal rules, what I'm pointing out is that Kishimoto has made it clear (with these rules as a medium) what to expect when KCM Naruto is _and_ isn't using his Shunshin speed relative to characters on his speed level.

A completely reasonable assumption is that KCM Naruto is going to be using his Shunshin a lot against Obito since he both _can_ use it back-to-back several times and would _need_ to against someone of that calibre. If KCM Naruto _doesn't_ appear to be very fast, it is because _Obito_ is the one outperforming _him_ (just like a very fast character will appear to eventually blur when against much slower characters), not because KCM Naruto isn't using Shunshin. After all... was that training just for show?



trocollo said:


> I just said he isn't using shunshin cause he's standing still, his attack has been blocked, in panel 10 he isn't moving into a shunshin


And I've shown you that characters can stop (like Naruto) but still exhibit things like SBLs. I guess this point doesn't matter too much now as I've since established how overwhelmingly clearly SBLs have been used to illustrate speed, so even if there are odd occasions where they aren't present, that doesn't degrade the quality of my argument.



trocollo said:


> 4. No Sasuke's chidori isn't done uder a shunshin, it's just enhanced speed as per Kakashi, he didn't use shunshin in gaiden but enhanced speed, A4 used elbow during enhanced speed, he's fast at making the rasengan but he did it after the shunshin


Chidori enhances speed — that's not the same as Shunshin.

A4 didn't just move with the enhancement RCM provides, otherwise he would have been running somewhat similar to . It makes no sense that A4 would have used Shunshin against inferior characters like Jugo but not against Sasuke. It makes no sense that A4 would just be moving normally against someone he really wanted to kill.



trocollo said:


> 5. The clones wheren't using shunshin but flyght, they're free to talk, if RSM Naruto uses shunshin he won't talk in it *Link Removed*


Of course they're using Shunshin. Do you think RSM Naruto has any chance at all of pressuring Kaguya without Shunshin when even RSM Naruto's Shunshin couldn't blitz a distracted JJ single-rinnegan Madara? And if all they're doing is outputting linear attacks, this should convince you more.



trocollo said:


> 6. He used shunshin, but to close up distances not to make cqc attacks, I've specified to you to which panels I think Naruto used shunshin when I asked you where you thought he used it in the Obito fight


Why would he not use Shunshin for linear CQC attacks?

You didn't agree Naruto was using Shunshin when he was lunging a Rasengan at Obito's face.
You didn't agree he used Shunshin when he tried to hit the Gedo Mazo even though the same SFX that Hiraishin uses was used.
You may agree that KCM Naruto's clone used it, but you don't think the original did.
The only Shunshin you agreed on, as far as I recall, was one that occurred 4 volumes later.

The real question is... if Naruto can use Shunshin back-to-back several times, why wouldn't he do that consistently against a threat like Obito who was up against several kage-level characters.



trocollo said:


> But he wasn't using shunshin so he has no enhancements to the trown speed


Higher speed = more force. Unless you think Shunshin-less Obito stopped KCM Naruto's Shunshin there.



trocollo said:


> I simply think KCM Naruto wasn't using shunshin


He did, though.
- Foot blurred
- SBLs
- Backdrop lines
- Looked fast
- Was crossing a long distance with a single jump
- Hiraishin SFX



trocollo said:


> - Let's go at it like this, Naruto used *Link Removed* when he attacked the gedo statue, *Link Removed* and that blocked him, so Obito's trowing speed is already faster than A4, but then Naruto gets a bigger shroud and *Link Removed* *Link Removed* and you easily broke any scale, you go from A4 having one of the fastest shunshin to that shunshin getting getting intercepted by trowables of Obito, then you get Naruto trashing his precedent max speed by trashing the speed of Obito's attacks; and no, Obito didn't use shunshin to trow gunbai just like he didn't use shunshin to attack Kakashi, shunshin is a justu to move your body in another location I'd get it if he trew the gunbai while under shunshin, but he stayed still
> So no, at best he used the shunshin to make the jump
> - Still slower than shunshin
> - Just the clone used it and to get near him, not in the attack
> - As long naruto didn't use shunshin to get way and they trashed that attemp it's fine


Madara could block KCM2 Naruto's Shunshin with Gunbai. I don't see the problem here. You have to also account for the distance; Obito could see Naruto coming. KCM2 Naruto doesn't trash Obito's attacks.
- It probably is slower than Shunshin, but it's faster than the one thrown at A3 and Obito casually dodged it at a shorter distance.
- Even if it was only the clone, the original's chakra arm seemed to have been enhanced with it. Still couldn't do a thing even though Obito had been occupied with a Shunshin-using KCM Naruto.
- Naruto was almost certainly using Shunshin against the V2 jins, at least to guard himself; they were just too fast collectively (refer for example to how Two-Tails bounced its way up and instantly attacked Naruto even though the line leftover from the previous jinchuriki was still visible.)



trocollo said:


> I'm also suprised we're still deciding about Obito capable of keeping up with KCM shunshin and using shunshin in the fight, but tecnically we could try resolving the thing by also analizing the Obito vs Kakashi fight where I say none of them used shunshin while you'd say they used them all the time


Kakashi and Obito were using Shunshin against each other several times.



trocollo said:


> Naruto isn't a blur like Deidara there, I don't even know if Deidara actually used shunshin to evade that but Naruto doesn't even have the effects Deidara had
> We disagree on FKS Sasuke
> Madara is too fast for SM Naruto cause he used shunshin, as normally he isn't too fast for SM Naruto


I didn't say Naruto was a blur.

Deidara certainly used Shunshin. How do you think he would have evaded such a fast attack from a character he shortly after admitted was faster than him? There's a reason a character like Deidara appeared blurry initially, and completely when Sasuke's movement was coming to a halt.

Shunshin _is_ normal. It's just a D-rank enhancement technique (that gets more proficient depending on the user). Fodders were using it back-to-back in Part 1. KCM Naruto was using it back-to-back against the Raikage, and so was Bee. Madara's body wasn't distorted, that's just how he looked relative to SM Naruto and Sai. Why do you think that RSM Naruto didn't appear as a blur against Juudara despite using Shunshin?



trocollo said:


> I guess it looks strange when you think about it being in the air, but Naruto chosed that elevation point, after that there is the falling part, like we see that Naruto and A stops there and then A hits him, it's not happening during the shunshin, still if you want we can also suppose that happened during the shunshin as A4 can react to that, same way Naruto also can the problem is with the others


Feel free to prove that Naruto chose that point as the stopping point. If he did, I'm sure the chakra trails don't match. The fact that he had so many SBL's also suggests he hadn't finished yet.



trocollo said:


> His shunshin blitzed him that's the difference, while figthing in cqc Nartuto can't blitz him I agree


KCM2 Naruto blitzed Obito just _twice_. One was with the help of MS Kakashi and BM Bee, and the other was when Obito wasn't even focused on KCM2 Naruto and was moving towards Kakashi. Your point was that "Naruto could blitz Obito anytime with that speed" but that is completely false. KCM2 Naruto failed to blitz Madara (albeit there was some distance so Madara could likely see him coming).



trocollo said:


> The one you brough with Naruto and Ashura is one, I was referring to the one of the reply just above tho, KCM2 Naruto stopping Obito from a landside


I've already justified the Asura one.

KCM2 Naruto stopping Obito's large shuriken (when even an exhausted no-3T Kakashi could do the same) doesn't mean KCM2 Naruto can blitz Obito.



trocollo said:


> Like how? I'm telling you that you that there is a problem with the refexes when increrasing your speed


The problem of increasing speed is resolved with increased reflexes/perception.



trocollo said:


> Didn't say they were always necessary, they were some of the example that help getting when it's used
> 
> That's actually inconsistent, sometimes we're shown them pushing with the feets some other times not, but maybe we could make another distinction, even tho I'm not sure if it's the cae but could be possible that when people push with the feet it's enhanching their legs, where ehen they don't push they're actually using shunshin? Like you get how FTG is called shunshin? Maybe that's also the case I'll need to check a lot of scans but this third choice may make sense


Absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence. Just because we aren't always shown them kicking their feet forward doesn't mean they aren't. Even so, it's been made clear by SM Jiraiya, KCM Naruto, A4, V1 Bee, base Bee, Madara... that they have to actually put some work into it.

You have to appreciate that from an author's perspective, it's neither necessary nor as interesting nor a good use of time to always show someone kicking with their foot. It's not inconsistent; it's just not that important to show all the time.



trocollo said:


> Trowables can't change their direction mid flight, Obito's hand can, Naruto's head is slower than Obito's hand, so surely in cqc Obito can touch Naruto's head


If Naruto was fast enough, there was enough distance such that Naruto could have discerned that his attack plan failed, and he would have tried to move his head back or to the side, but he didn't (meaning he wasn't fast enough).


----------



## trocollo (Sep 1, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> In that case, let's see some evidence to prove that.
> 
> I can show you that there are _numerous_ instances in which that SFX isn't used for Shunshin, or in a few cases no SFX are used at all.
> 
> ...


I apprecciate the fuckton of work, but what's your point? I also said it happens a lot of time that the sfx gets covered, I'm not saying that we need that sfx to decide if something is shunshin or not, I'm saying what is the sound that shunshin makes on his own



Mad Scientist said:


> My point isn't that they're indicating Shunshin, so that's irrelevant. The point is that the scenes are virtually identical except for the characters. Characters can look like they're moving at "normal" speed, but in reality their speeds compared to other characters may well be and often _will_ be _completely_ different; it's not that RSM Naruto isn't moving at flash speed there — he _is_, if compared to KCM Naruto for example, but if compared to Juudara why would he look like a flash? Why would the author depict him as a flash or blur etc. if his opponent is in his speed tier?


But you were listing effects that should define a shunshin, we get nothing from looking at similiarityes at two random images

RSM Naruto still moves at flash speed when he uses his shunshin that's the thing, like his physical speed also his shunshin goes up, remaining a flash in our eyes



Mad Scientist said:


> Why would you assume he's using the same speed he used against Jugo when he was up against his faster superior? In the KCM Naruto fight, it was made very clear that A4 could incrementally increase his speed but still stay in a "V1" state. That's the most likely thing that happened against Sasuke.


Ah you can take him as faster, that's also possible, I thought you meant to say he was slower, overall I think he either had the same speed or was faster



Mad Scientist said:


> They _can_ emphasise things like pressure alone, but overwhelmingly what I've found is they reflect on speed.
> 
> Kisame's "strength" isn't the only thing being emphasised there. It's also if not primarily the speed of his punch, given how his fist and clothes are starting to blur.
> 
> Kakashi getting near Asura's blade is an emphasis on speed - refer to the panels beforehand, and to the blur / SBLs (small black lines) drawn over his body.


You said everytime, I responded with "not everytime"
Do I agree that "it's usually used for speed?" I do, this wasn't a problem



Mad Scientist said:


> Look at how many SBLs are covering Tobirama, SM Naruto and Juubito. It's because they are emphasising speed as Kishimoto captured that super fast moment.
> 
> A4 _was_ moving fast in that panel, because Kishimoto captured the part that shows him _during_ transformation. And even if he wasn't, it doesn't matter because there will be a few things that don't fit sometimes.
> 
> ...


That's also the case

A4 wasn't moving fast he was just charging his armor

And again I just said "not everytime"



Mad Scientist said:


> That Minato saving Kakashi one doesn't even have backdrop lines.
> 
> Shikamaru was _clearly_ captured in a moment in which he was moving fast. Characters can make very short movements, and if their look is captured in that moment, they can appear with such visuals.


Yeah, fast action and no backdrop lines but minato still used shunshin

No I meant the first panel of that page, no backdrop lines for the attack of Hidan, these replyes were for you point on the backdrop lines



Mad Scientist said:


> Exactly. When KCM Naruto _wasn't_ moving at previous speeds (which were all enhanced by Shunshin), Kishimoto made an intentional, purposeful decision _not_ to draw several SBLs over him. Kishimoto literally had _four_ chances () in which he _could_ have drawn such lines if he wanted to. This _strongly_ suggests, in accordance with the blur/SBL rule that he universally established, he is using such visuals purposefully to showcase what to expect when looking at KCM Naruto's faster speeds (i.e. his Shunshin speeds) and his slower speeds.


No he's making this difference cause A4 was much faster, in a normal fight both participants gets the movement lines, the difference here is that one moved a lot faster than the other so Kishi made the image of the slower one clear and of the faster one blurred



Mad Scientist said:


> She didn't have many against Madara overall, and there was clearly a linear of the emphasis on such SBLs based on how fast she was moving. This is beginning to make it very clear just how intentionally these SBLs were being used.


She had many, it's just that the fight was mixed with talks and other kages actions, if you see when Tsunade attacks you'll usually get them as here: *Link Removed* , *Link Removed*  , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed*
Still she could have well had just one panel and it would still be valid proof



Mad Scientist said:


> = fast movement (obviously have to always consider the context in which such phrases are used). Look at the images; they show the differences between normal movement and fast movement.


I don't get if you want me to stop using the enhanced speed wording and use something else instead or if you are claming every enhanced speed movement is shunshin
Fast movement isn't equal to shunshin, *Link Removed* is a fast movement but it isn't shunshin; shunshin is a type of fast movement it's not the definition of fast movement itself



Mad Scientist said:


> There may be a few instances of the SBLs being used to emphasise something else, but overwhelmingly it seems to be emphasising fast speeds.
> 
> And how do you know Naruto was not captured moving in a fast moment there? Just beforehand, Naruto was almost parallel with Tsunade, then he ended up quite a bit further, passing the smoke to the point A4 isn't even visible. The emphasis lines on the ground also suggest he wasn't slow in that captured moment. There's also that _whack_ SFX.
> 
> Naruto looked like a  to a slower character when he was _leaving_ and _not engaging in battle_. Why did he not blur like that against A4? It's because A4's closer to Naruto in speed compared to that Aburame guy.


Cause Naruto's position is not how ninja run, that's how they walk

He was moving fast, those effect are used for something fast not if there is a condition of engaging-leaving



Mad Scientist said:


> We both believe Shunshin is faster than regular movements. Where you and I are differing, according to your own answer here, is that you believe Shunshin appears as teleportation or like teleportation, and while Shunshin _can_ appear as or like teleportation against characters that aren't very fast, _*it does not appear*_ like that to us or to characters when such speed is pitted against characters who can perceive or keep up with it (at least it doesn't appear like that often), as I've shown countless times.
> 
> The idea that KCM Naruto always moves like a flash when using Shunshin, as if he has teleported, is completely false. First of all, there isn't a "yellow flash effect" every time he uses Shunshin [, , , , , ]. When characters of a similar speed are travelling at relative speeds, the author often shows them visibly keeping up with each other [, , , , , , , ], even though we know many of these characters would appear like a flash when they are up against much slower opponents or if the author is conveying the battle from the eyes of a slower spectator. Just because characters don't look like a flash — whatever you think the manga makes that look like — doesn't necessarily mean they aren't using Shunshin. The same Bee that described the slowest version of KCM Naruto's Shunshin like a flash, kept up with a Raikage that was moving even _faster_ than that speed [, , ], as Naruto was continually improving upon that speed at  point.


If you say I take the disappearance as the effect then you can't attack the yellow flash effect where Naruto and A4 disappeared, as that's a form of disappearance not the only form that is showed

14) Bee reached A4 when the latter wasn't using shunshin, but was in mid air
15) We still disagree if they were using shunshin or not there
16) It's Bee who used shunshin (at best), the raikage was going for the punch



Mad Scientist said:


> The Shunshin used in combat doesn't teleport people. If that were the case, characters could just assume some stance, activate Shunshin and appear somewhere like a Hiraishin user, meaning KCM Naruto with his chakra arm outstretched could have just flickered away, but of course he couldn't since that's not how it works. We see that characters have to physically put in effort to move, like Madara, Naruto, Bee and A4 kicking off the ground. Shunshin increases movement speed, which means a character can _run_ faster, which in turn means that they can _kick_ faster (shouldn't be a surprise since their entire body is vitalized with chakra), which in turn means they can _strike_ faster, which is what we see A4 and Madara etc. do.
> 
> If striking speed was unaffected by Shunshin, then:
> 
> ...


You're giving other abilityes to shunshin, this is a jutsu that gets casted, not a transformation like RCM or KCM; the jutsu is casted and brings you from a point to another that's what it does; you can't use shunshin to trow faster punches, that's not what the jutsu does; I get that it makes sense that you should be able to use the same method to increrase your punching speed but there isn't a jutsu for that, there's just a jutsu for the movement, it's the same problem you had with Obito, since he needs to walk on ground makes sense that he decides what to teleport, but it's not the case; same here, what the justu does is moving your body from one place to another, you're using its descprition to say that you can use it also to do other things but it's simply not like it works or how gets used

1. Yeah in fact A4 first gets in Naruto's way, and then punches him, as we see that the two of them stop even if in air

2. Well that makes up for my point of them using enhanced speed and not shunshin there

3. He used it two times, one on Naruto and then on Sai right after

4. Why would he want to hit Minato with a fully foward punch? You get max damage and speed if the punch is still moving

5. Well that makes up for my point of Sasuke using shunshin only prior to that, to just close the distance

6. Check 1

7. Why? The susanoo isn't gonna flick away and A4 has a great physical speed

The problem with shunshin in cqc is what I said above just before the 1-7 points; it's cool that you don't think the effect is enough so what do you add to be sure it's shunshin?



Mad Scientist said:


> I know that's possible, I don't see the relevance here.


Idk you asked me a pretty general thing and I made examples with it, just ignore it then



Mad Scientist said:


> All fighting scenes aren't full of enhancing lines.
> 
> Look at the SBLs on .
> 
> ...


You posted fight scenes with enhancing lines, and as I've said all fight scenes are filled with them, so what's the problem? I can make the comparison with how much lines are used in those panels you posted as you wrote but I get nothing from it outside of them seeming fast movements



Mad Scientist said:


> Asuma, for example, appeared to disappear and reappear when blitzing Sound ninja with Shunshin. Do you think Asuma just suddenly forgot how to use Shunshin against Hidan, or Kisame? No. They're just fast enough that they don't make Asuma's movements look like teleportation, which is what the databook alludes to.
> 
> P1 Kakashi casually blitzed various ninja. Why didn't he blitz Zabuza easily too? Is it because he somehow forgot how to use Shunshin or move fast? No. It's because Zabuza was on his speed level.
> 
> ...


That was just when he appeared behind Shikamaru; in the fight it was his physical speed that was fast

No it's cause he isn't going to use shunshin aganist Zabuza, the risk is too high, it's the same problem of him using enhanced speed aganist the Iwa jonin

Sasuke wasn't as fast as Naruto but he could use the sharingan to predict his movements, that was the point of passing from 2T to 3T, the additional tomoe didn't give him more speed

It's not about forgetting to use a jutsu it's the jutsu that doesn't get used in those circumstances, and no, posting A4 attacking with shunshin doesn't counter this point, A4 isn't Asuma, neither is Hidan, Kakuzu, Kisame and Itachi, even S ranked criminals can't react or use shunshin to attack, you need to be on A4's level to do that, again, Shisui didn't get his nickname cause he was doing something everyone could



Mad Scientist said:


> It's very clear. Tell me what's more likely:
> 
> *Naruto didn't use Shunshin...* because he didn't disappear and reappear? He did. Because he didn't have the Hiraishin SFX? Not necessary.
> *Naruto did use Shunshin*. Completely blitzed that guy during his mid-movement, with huge SFX, several SBLs, darker KCM edges in colour, backdrop coloured to draw attention to Naruto, several emphasis lines, Naruto moved so fast the guy is blurry even though Naruto wasn't visible in prior panels, and the whole thing taking place almost _exactly_ like Naruto's Shunshin , which by the way _does_ have the SFX used in illustrating Hiraishin.


1. We don't know if he disappeared cause he we don't see him disappear, the sfx would've been covered by the rasengan hitting the dude either way

2. Naruto can blitz that guy with his physical movement from a blindside all day, it's the same thing he did on Mu
Yeah "almost exactly" cause that's not a blindside



Mad Scientist said:


> How are those three examples that check not enough to demonstrate that Shunshin can be used to physically attack characters? In any case, I've provided plenty of examples so far.
> 
> Just to list some quickly:
> 
> ...


They're not enough cause they're part of the special ones who can do it, what I'm telling you is that it's not normal for a ninja to fight using shunshin

- Kakashi didn't use shunshin aganist Asura, I think you're prolly referring to when he tried to go for the blindside, but there's not indication that Kakashi used shunshin to appear behind him, still what I'm saying is that it's not used to do the attack, as assuming Kakashi did use shunshin there he still didn't use it to pierce but just to appear behind Asura
- Yeah
- Yeah
- Yeah
- Like when? (Tsunade vs Madara)
- Don't remeber RSM Naruto using shunshin aganist Madara but I'm cool with RSM Naruto using shunshin
- Same as above
- Only used it to appear behind Shikamaru
- He used FTG
- Like when? (Itachi vs KCM Naruto)
- Like when? (Kabuto vs Itachi)
- We disagree on the cases
- Yeah
- That doesn't seem shunshin to me, both animal path and Jiraiya accelerated fast towards each other, but even if we suppose it was shunshin it doesn't help your case as Jiraiya was in SM there



Mad Scientist said:


> Shunshin _enhances movement speed_ by vitalizing the body with chakra - that's literally what the DB says it does. Shunshin _is_ enhanced movement.
> 
> What do you mean by "not really"? The databook literally counters the idea that the user teleports, by clarifying that the user vitalizes their body with chakra and moves at super speeds. We see this even in Part 1.
> 
> ...


I mean that enhanced movement isn't shunshin, Sakura didn't use shunshin there she just put chakra on her feets and got faster

I'm showing you the possibility, I'm not using Sakura to prove A4 didn't use shunshin, I'm using her to prove what's the difference between a general enhanced speed movement and shunshin, what I'm using to prove that A didn't use shunshin is Cee's statement (well I was in the past lol)

1. Enhanced movements are already difficolut to keep up with as seen with Ino vs Sakura or Kakashi with raikiri

2. He also didn't use it aganist Juugo, Cee's statement again

3. Yeah it's a cool scene where they're moving fast; already did, Cee said it was going to happen after that scene happened, whitout that and whitout my "but it's not making the disappearing effect" we can't say if it's or not shunshin

4. Cee isn't saying that A can't use shunshin in V1, even normal ninja can cast shunshin; he's just saying that A is going to use shunshin, him deducing that from A ramping himself up doesn't mean that a lower ramping can't do a shunshin; it's like you see A4 figthing for a bit in cqc without using shunshin and then he goes to V2, what you think happens now? He's prolly going to use shunshin, is he able to use it in V1 tho? Yes he is

5. He didn't use shunshin to attack him, you can only argue that he used it to get behind him but the sfx there is the one for the clothes sound, the one for shunshin/FTG doesn't have that little extention on the "7"



Mad Scientist said:


> Do you think Sasuke's base is fast enough to outspeed V1 A4's Shunshin? Because I (and Cee) certainly don't.


No, I also think A wasn't using shunshin, Sasuke was doing his regular enhanced-speed chidori



Mad Scientist said:


> They are using Shunshin just like Madara used Shunshin to blitz SM Naruto who was able to physically block, like Sasuke performing steps in between his Shunshin-aided collision with A4, like Sasuke trying to slice Deidara after Shunshin movements.
> 
> For a hint, look at how surprised Bee is despite Nagato's warning and knowing their enemies had entered combat, look at how blurred KCM Naruto and Itachi and their attacks are, look at how fast Itachi was (_shoom_) when landing, look at how Itachi blurs completely when evading Bee, look at the several lined backdrops.


They are figthing cqc it's not a single hit like Madara's; Madara body slammed SM Naruto, they didn't have an exchange in cqc, Sasuke didn't use shunshin aganist A4, but, even if, they didn't have a physical excahnge; with Deidara he used shunshin before the attack, his attack is done with phsyical movement and again it's totally different from Naruto vs Itachi, those two are exchanging hits in cqc it's not a shunshin clash they are taking and giving punches

That was a clone feint, Bee doesn't have sensing, they are blurred cause they are figthing fast not cause they are using shunshin, shunshin is a jutsu that moves your body in another place not a special power up that ups your stats



Mad Scientist said:


> So A3 dodged KCM Naruto's FRS _twice_ and you think it's _unclear_ whether KCM Naruto used Shunshin there...? Even despite all the visual indicators (SFX, blur, backdrop, how fast he looks)?


Yeah it's unclear cause those visual indicators don't decide if it's or not shunshin, if you want to think it's shunshin go on I don't have problems with it



Mad Scientist said:


> Naruto _might_ not be using Shunshin, but considering the strong visuals and the fact that Mu is fairly fast compared to the important characters on that battlefield, Naruto most likely was using Shunshin.


It's not "most likely shunshin", it's "surely not a shunshin", using the lines shouldn't be used to suggest a shunshin, Mu doesn't move in the air at KCM-Naruto-shunshin-speed, neither does Onoki who fought him and neither does Deidara who fought Onoki etc...
Naruto physically struck him by lowering the planetary rasengan and Mu dodged away and Naruto started falling, that's not a shunshin movement



Mad Scientist said:


> Notice how A3's slower attack starts to blur against , but against  even A3's faster attack doesn't blur as much — that's because base Naruto < SM Naruto in speed. Then, notice how A3 is totally non-blurry when  was trying to blitz him (because SM Naruto < KCM Naruto)?
> 
> This kind of careful attention to detail is impressively consistent.


While the scale in speed that you wrote is true it's not because of that, the difference is just on the relative speed like you also said, SM Naruto has a lot more blur than KCM Naruto and than A3 when he dodges with the rasengan, that's beacause that movement was very fast in comparison with the fast movement of A3; base Naruto has no blur aganist the little blur A3 attack had cause he wasn't moving; A3 has no blur aganist the little blur KCM Naruto had cause he wasn't moving; if for some reason base Naruto was faster than KCM Naruto this would still be consistent as it's just showing where's the "fast" is in the panel, not creating a scale of fast



Mad Scientist said:


> It was all Shunshin. Do you think Naruto just suddenly slowed down in panel 7 despite how blurry he appeared? Even though he hadn't reached his destination?


He slowed down already in panel 6, that's where his shunshin ended as he appeared there
Despite how blurry he appeared it isn't a justification, his attack just got highlited, like when shoten Kisame was charging a strong punch but he wasn't using shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> Backdrop can be used for both, sure. What I was trying to draw attention to is the fact that SM Madara, when using Shunshin, had considerably more SBLs compared to himself when seemingly not.


It's a difference on the poroportion, when we see the whole scene with Sasuke swinging his sword Madara is smaller so he surely is covered in less lines, in the panel right after we get a close up and Madara is covered in them, this way he has more than when Madara got out from the bijuu as his density is bigger, but that's just because his proportion with the panel changed, not cause Madara there was moving faster than when he used shunshin, you're gonna see less lines from the distance, imagine if Kishi drawed *Link Removed* but with triple the distance that there is from Naruto and the observer, he wouldn't have the space to make all those lines; on the other hand it's also possible that in a close up the lines actually also dimish as it can be used as a slowed down closed up; point is this is someting at the discretion of Kishi, as they are drawing tecquites used to make the scene cool, giving them a style, they are consistent when deciding where the fast movements are, but they aren't linked to their grade of speed



Mad Scientist said:


> I wasn't referring to the longer lines overlaid into their clothes at all.
> 
> Regarding Tsunade's back having fewer lines because it's her back... Look at , , , , and it's nothing to do with hair since both  and Tsunade's hair are blonde, and .


Yeah that's what I put into, cause Tsunade back clothes cover her whole back and her direction asks for vertical speed lines (differently than Bee), it's silimilar to the situation Onoki is in where he also got just 3 lines on his head, all we need is for these lines to be there, I'm not gonna ignore their presence just cause they're few, those lines indicate movement meaning Tsunade did move trying to get to A



Mad Scientist said:


> I know there are universal rules, what I'm pointing out is that Kishimoto has made it clear (with these rules as a medium) what to expect when KCM Naruto is _and_ isn't using his Shunshin speed relative to characters on his speed level.
> 
> A completely reasonable assumption is that KCM Naruto is going to be using his Shunshin a lot against Obito since he both _can_ use it back-to-back several times and would _need_ to against someone of that calibre. If KCM Naruto _doesn't_ appear to be very fast, it is because _Obito_ is the one outperforming _him_ (just like a very fast character will appear to eventually blur when against much slower characters), not because KCM Naruto isn't using Shunshin. After all... was that training just for show?


1. Then don't use it for people who aren't KCM Naruto
2. He hasn't, you took the exchange with Naruto and A and created this theory, he is just telling you where the fast movements are, not where shunshin is, the fight being a "shunshin fight" surely puts the fast movements in the shunshin moments, that doesn't mean that from there on I'll be always like that, Kishi didn't change his effects when drawing Naruto vs A he just followed his regular ones for speed; but you just saprated that scene from the rest of the manga taking it as only example of those visual effects and drawed your conclusions, and then applyed the conclusion drawed from that special fight to all the manga, that doesn't make sense and I've also showed you how I could do the same with Minato, were taking his fight with Obito I decide that the author doesn't put speed effects when shunshin is used while he puts them when physical speed is, but again this example shouldn't be needed here; as to apply the rules of a restricted case to a more general one doesn't work logically

But it's not reasonable, A4 fights with shunshin, Obito doesn't, Obito fights with kamui, we've seen Naruto using his best shunshin aganist Obito and he completely blitzed his movements, he also used it some times in the fight but just to reach the fight distance to engage not to attack, he used his physical speed and his rasengan for that; even just taking in that Kakashi had time to use kamui in that exchange with the rasengan you get that hunshin wasn't being used



Mad Scientist said:


> And I've shown you that characters can stop (like Naruto) but still exhibit things like SBLs. I guess this point doesn't matter too much now as I've since established how overwhelmingly clearly SBLs have been used to illustrate speed, so even if there are odd occasions where they aren't present, that doesn't degrade the quality of my argument.


SBLs easily illustrate speed so no problems



Mad Scientist said:


> Chidori enhances speed — that's not the same as Shunshin.
> 
> A4 didn't just move with the enhancement RCM provides, otherwise he would have been running somewhat similar to . It makes no sense that A4 would have used Shunshin against inferior characters like Jugo but not against Sasuke. It makes no sense that A4 would just be moving normally against someone he really wanted to kill.


Ok? Like I'm also saying that, Sasuke didn't use shunshin but enhanced speed

No that scene isn't clear on that; they could be one like the other, and he didn't use shunshin aganist Jugo per Cee's statement (that now is false, so-), it makes sense since if he used shunshin aganist Jugo it already ended where we see the sfx



Mad Scientist said:


> Of course they're using Shunshin. Do you think RSM Naruto has any chance at all of pressuring Kaguya without Shunshin when even RSM Naruto's Shunshin couldn't blitz a distracted JJ single-rinnegan Madara? And if all they're doing is outputting linear attacks, this should convince you more.


But they aren't, RSM Naruto's shunshin is much faster than that, the clones are just flying, with shunshin Naruto blitzes Kaguya as it has been showed; also not sure what istance you're reffering to for JJ Madara



Mad Scientist said:


> Why would he not use Shunshin for linear CQC attacks?
> 
> You didn't agree Naruto was using Shunshin when he was lunging a Rasengan at Obito's face.
> You didn't agree he used Shunshin when he tried to hit the Gedo Mazo even though the same SFX that Hiraishin uses was used.
> ...


Why would he? It's not a necessity

I know you still disagree with those, I just said where I showed you that I disagree

He already used it a lot aganist Obito, but he can't use it lo lauch himself to death, Obito wins the moment he gets to touch Naruto, so he has to coordinate with the masters and discover the secret of kamui, surely Naruto could've fought better expecially by using a lot more clones, but the objective of the story was discovering the secret behind Obito's timespace not defeating him



Mad Scientist said:


> Higher speed = more force. Unless you think Shunshin-less Obito stopped KCM Naruto's Shunshin there.


No but I think shunshin-less Obito stopped shunshin-less Naruto as Obito wasn't using shunshin, he was standing on the ground



Mad Scientist said:


> He did, though.
> - Foot blurred
> - SBLs
> - Backdrop lines
> ...


I mean in the attack, he used it and jumped sure, but Obito blocking it by launching gunbai doesn't suggest Naruto was still under shunshin there, but actually suggest the perfect opposite: naruto not using shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> Madara could block KCM2 Naruto's Shunshin with Gunbai. I don't see the problem here. You have to also account for the distance; Obito could see Naruto coming. KCM2 Naruto doesn't trash Obito's attacks.
> - It probably is slower than Shunshin, but it's faster than the one thrown at A3 and Obito casually dodged it at a shorter distance.
> - Even if it was only the clone, the original's chakra arm seemed to have been enhanced with it. Still couldn't do a thing even though Obito had been occupied with a Shunshin-using KCM Naruto.
> - Naruto was almost certainly using Shunshin against the V2 jins, at least to guard himself; they were just too fast collectively (refer for example to how Two-Tails bounced its way up and instantly attacked Naruto even though the line leftover from the previous jinchuriki was still visible.)


He can't, when KCM2 Naruto used shunshin he also stopped Madara from attacking Gai and Naruto was quite far from the attack; when Madara blocked him with gunbai Naruto was just falling on him, he used shunshin to get the height before that

The distance is even more for the gunbai, you can see Obito in the bottom of the panel

KCM2 shunshin trashes Obito's attacks, it's on panel

- A3 neg diff-evaded it tho, and even evaded the back launch of the FRS; Obito eveading the arm doesn't tell us he can can evade the shunshin that surpassed A4's speed
- You can't enhance a chakra arm with shunshin how even you're supposed to vitalize a chakra arm in the first place and how it looks like it has been enhanced to you?
The clone didn't attack with the shunshin he just got there with it
- No again, how you use shunshin to guard? You use shunshin to flick away it's to change places not to power up parts of your body, people don't use shunshin on the brain or on the eyes to have better reflexes




Mad Scientist said:


> Kakashi and Obito were using Shunshin against each other several times.


Not one time they used shunshin in that fight



Mad Scientist said:


> I didn't say Naruto was a blur.
> 
> Deidara certainly used Shunshin. How do you think he would have evaded such a fast attack from a character he shortly after admitted was faster than him? There's a reason a character like Deidara appeared blurry initially, and completely when Sasuke's movement was coming to a halt.
> 
> Shunshin _is_ normal. It's just a D-rank enhancement technique (that gets more proficient depending on the user). Fodders were using it back-to-back in Part 1. KCM Naruto was using it back-to-back against the Raikage, and so was Bee. Madara's body wasn't distorted, that's just how he looked relative to SM Naruto and Sai. Why do you think that RSM Naruto didn't appear as a blur against Juudara despite using Shunshin?


Then it's not the same thing Deidara did

By jumping, it's not like Sasuke was using shunshin there, at best you can assume he used enhanced speed and in that case Deidara also used enhanced speed to jump and it's consistent; still again not really a problem if Deidara actually used shunshin to evade that attack, but he didn't show such

It's not normal using it to attack, it's normal to use it to run away from a fight or to get to a safe point, that's what it's used for
Not sure when you think Naruto used shunshin aganist juudara



Mad Scientist said:


> Feel free to prove that Naruto chose that point as the stopping point. If he did, I'm sure the chakra trails don't match. The fact that he had so many SBL's also suggests he hadn't finished yet.


You could be right there, as it is too strange that the stopping point is there, tho he doesn't clash with the raikage they just stop there so seems to me they just stopped there by their choice as a means to not clash on each other ankwardly



Mad Scientist said:


> KCM2 Naruto blitzed Obito just _twice_. One was with the help of MS Kakashi and BM Bee, and the other was when Obito wasn't even focused on KCM2 Naruto and was moving towards Kakashi. Your point was that "Naruto could blitz Obito anytime with that speed" but that is completely false. KCM2 Naruto failed to blitz Madara (albeit there was some distance so Madara could likely see him coming).


What when was the other time?
What matters is that Obito was attacking Kakashi, Naruto stopped the attack
Naruto used shunshin to get the elevation, he didn't attack Madara with it, Naruto moved much faster than Madara's susanoo's sword trust with his shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> I've already justified the Asura one.
> 
> KCM2 Naruto stopping Obito's large shuriken (when even an exhausted no-3T Kakashi could do the same) doesn't mean KCM2 Naruto can blitz Obito.


Right I didn't responde to that: Naruto didn't concentrate a considereable reserve of chakra for Asura his SM was limited by how many FRS he could use not by his shunshin aganist Asura, elevation should have made the cost affordable, problem is that shunshin cost is already affordable for a normal ninja, so surely it is for "1000 kage bunshin" Naruto

He stopped it by running from a great distance, while Obito just had to move in a little space



Mad Scientist said:


> The problem of increasing speed is resolved with increased reflexes/perception.


How do you increrase reflexes? Shunshin only increrases your speed



Mad Scientist said:


> Absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence. Just because we aren't always shown them kicking their feet forward doesn't mean they aren't. Even so, it's been made clear by SM Jiraiya, KCM Naruto, A4, V1 Bee, base Bee, Madara... that they have to actually put some work into it.
> 
> You have to appreciate that from an author's perspective, it's neither necessary nor as interesting nor a good use of time to always show someone kicking with their foot. It's not inconsistent; it's just not that important to show all the time.


I didn't say there was no evidence, I said they are shown not trusting with their feets, I need to find these panels where the anbu gets dismissed by the hokage office Idk if they were anime-only, for now here's *Link Removed* and *Link Removed*



Mad Scientist said:


> If Naruto was fast enough, there was enough distance such that Naruto could have discerned that his attack plan failed, and he would have tried to move his head back or to the side, but he didn't (meaning he wasn't fast enough).


And nothing would've changed, he couldn't evade Obito's hand, he had to rely on Gai, if he actually gained some time by moving his head then Obito wouldn't have phased with Naruto's head when Gai attacked making Gai's save useless, as the moment the nunchaku goes out of Obito's brain the latter would have then touched Naruto and absorbed him; with Naruto pahsing Obito from the start this can't happen and Naruto is safe, so this is actually the safest choice and the person who would have had to move was Obito, cause if he retracted his hand there he could've disabled phasing the moment the nunchaku got out of his head and get Naruto
So now is Obito who was too slow and couldn't retract his hand to get the win


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 1, 2020)

@trocollo, in order to continue this debate, we need to agree on a few basic scenes first. Also please try to fix your spelling etc. in future, it's becoming increasingly difficult to understand what you are trying to convey.

*1.* Did KCM Naruto use Shunshin in each of the following instances?
, , , , , 

*2.* Did A4 use Shunshin in each of the following instances?
, , , 

*3.* Did A4 and Sasuke both use Shunshin in the following instance?


For all twelve, I would need a clear reason for your answer.


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## trocollo (Sep 2, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> @trocollo, in order to continue this debate, we need to agree on a few basic scenes first. Also please try to fix your spelling etc. in future, it's becoming increasingly difficult to understand what you are trying to convey.
> 
> *1.* Did KCM Naruto use Shunshin in each of the following instances?
> , , , , ,
> ...


Yeah, sorry, tho I think I know how to solve that problem, I'll have to divide my reply in parts, this way things don't bug out for too much text and I can type in very easily, I'll also wait and always type by PC everytime I respond lol, I can also fix the last response if you want to continue from that, or we just continue from this one, anyway:

KCM Naruto:
1 to 4) It's implied he used shunshin just from the context, each time he clashes with A4 he's trying to run his way trough with it but A4 intercepts him with his own, we also see them appearing already with Naruto's slowest movement, so that slowest movement was already a shunshin, so the faster ones would also be shunshin even if sometimes we just see the aftermath or pieces of them

5) It's possible that he used it, we see that in panel 5 he falls on the ground and in 6 the FRS reaches his arm and gets connected to it, in 7 he reached A3 to strike, he could've used shunshin to do that like not, I'd be sure of it if we'd be shown Naruto disappearing from where he was or if there was some indication that he appeared in panel 7

6) He prolly uses shunshin or at least enhanced speed at the start of the run cause the sfx that was there is usually used for the fast movements, from Lee vs Gaara to actual teleportation (ye it's a lot more general that what I thought), going with shunshin, the jutsu ends with the jump, when we see him making the rasengan in panel 6, if he was still in shunshin we'd not have seen him clearly in the scenery neither Obito would've been able to intercept him with the gunbai from there

A4:
Yes same reasons as above

A4 vs Sasuke:
Depends what you think of Cee's statement, tho out of that chidori is done with enhanced speed not under a shunshin, the raikage at best used shunshin to appear there ( but we know from the previous panels that he was already there so no need for that ) but not to attack, cause we see how the exange plays and both of them lean their body foward to trust, shunshin is faster than physical movements if they both trusted with shunshin the raikage would've ended up body-slamming Sasuke, while instead he just happears to have made a *Link Removed*


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## trocollo (Sep 2, 2020)

@Mad Scientist about Cee's phrase, I was checking the fight, and *Link Removed* feels a lot like shunshin to me, so I guess Cee's wording wasn't much correct afterall, so I rest my case there, or at lest half-rest, you can just trow out that part from the argument


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 2, 2020)

trocollo said:


> I can also fix the last response if you want


Don't worry about fixing it. Just continue the good work in future.



trocollo said:


> KCM Naruto:
> 1 to 4) It's implied he used shunshin just from the context, each time he clashes with A4 he's trying to run his way trough with it but A4 intercepts him with his own, we also see them appearing already with Naruto's slowest movement, so that slowest movement was already a shunshin, so the faster ones would also be shunshin even if sometimes we just see the aftermath or pieces of them


Can you be more specific about the contextual information that implies he used Shunshin in each of those four instances?



trocollo said:


> 5) It's possible that he used it, we see that in panel 5 he falls on the ground and in 6 the FRS reaches his arm and gets connected to it, in 7 he reached A3 to strike, he could've used shunshin to do that like not, I'd be sure of it if we'd be shown Naruto disappearing from where he was or if there was some indication that he appeared in panel 7


So the FRS reached KCM Naruto, then the next moment Naruto appears instantly behind A3, how is that not disappearance and reappearance?

Also, the _lined backdrop fade/blend_ that was present when  and when  was present as Naruto was moving on panel 6.



trocollo said:


> 6) He prolly uses shunshin or at least enhanced speed at the start of the run cause the sfx that was there is usually used for the fast movements, from Lee vs Gaara to actual teleportation (ye it's a lot more general that what I thought), going with shunshin, the jutsu ends with the jump, when we see him making the rasengan in panel 6, if he was still in shunshin we'd not have seen him clearly in the scenery neither Obito would've been able to intercept him with the gunbai from there


*1.* If he hadn't yet reached his destination, why would his Shunshin stop?
*2.* You say that we'd have not seen him clearly in the scenery if he was still in Shunshin, but we saw him pretty clearly when jumped and fully clearly as he was making the Rasengan, and we also saw Naruto clearly in other instances you agreed were implied to be Shunshin, such as in these three: , , .



trocollo said:


> A4 vs Sasuke:
> Depends what you think of Cee's statement, tho out of that chidori is done with enhanced speed not under a shunshin, the raikage at best used shunshin to appear there ( but we know from the previous panels that he was already there so no need for that ) but not to attack, cause we see how the exange plays and both of them lean their body foward to trust, shunshin is faster than physical movements if they both trusted with shunshin the raikage would've ended up body-slamming Sasuke, while instead he just happears to have made a *Link Removed*


*1.* If Shunshin is faster than physical movement, then how is it that KCM Naruto could block against A4 the , and the  where A4's attack was completely linear?

I'm going to address some points regarding Cee.


trocollo said:


> 1. Enhanced movements are already difficolut to keep up with as seen with Ino vs Sakura or Kakashi with raikiri
> 
> 2. He also didn't use it aganist Juugo, Cee's statement again
> 
> ...


*1.*  (even the Hiraishin SFX was there). *Sasuke's reaction speed is even faster than Jugo's* (which can even be inferred from Cee's statement: "It's impressive they're keeping up. But Lord Raikage has manipulated his raiton chakra to augment his reflexes! _Not even the sharingan will be able to keep up with him._") So for Cee to believe that Sasuke wouldn't be able to keep up with V1 A4, V1 A4 *must* use Shunshin against Sasuke. If you disagree, why? Do you think Jugo's reaction speed is > Sasuke's?

*2.* A4 did use Shunshin against Jugo. That's the point of Cee's statement when describing V1 A4, that it's impressive for that reason.

*4.* V1 A4 can use Shunshin several times and do it back-to-back. How does Cee's words, in the context of it implying how A4 plans to combat the MS, imply that V1 A4 did not use Shunshin against Sasuke?

*5.* This SFX has been used for Shunshin other times [, , , , ]. And even if the Hiraishin one wasn't used, how does that automatically mean that wasn't Shunshin? There isn't a specific one used for Shunshin all the time. It varies. So aside from SFX, how can you tell that _isn't_ Shunshin? After seeing how fast the Raikage was, why would Sasuke have _not_ used Shunshin to attack his blind side?


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## trocollo (Sep 2, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Can you be more specific about the contextual information that implies he used Shunshin in each of those four instances?


Context isn't different for those 4 istances, I'm referring to the context of the whole entering the battle fight: Naruto vs A4 / Minato vs A4; I'm not saying there is a specific context that each instance represent



Mad Scientist said:


> So the FRS reached KCM Naruto, then the next moment Naruto appears instantly behind A3, how is that not disappearance and reappearance?
> 
> Also, the _lined backdrop fade/blend_ that was present when  and when  was present as Naruto was moving on panel 6.


Doesn't seem to me that he appears istanteneously, if it's instead the case then he used shunshin, I'd surely agree

Yes, why it wouldn't it be?



Mad Scientist said:


> *1.* If he hadn't yet reached his destination, why would his Shunshin stop?
> *2.* You say that we'd have not seen him clearly in the scenery if he was still in Shunshin, but we saw him pretty clearly when jumped and fully clearly as he was making the Rasengan, and we also saw Naruto clearly in other instances you agreed were implied to be Shunshin, such as in these three: , , .


1. Cause he needed to also make a rasengan to attack; it's possible it has also something to do with the cost of the jutsu giving he was short on the Kurama-link

2. Cause those are the moment the shunshin is stopped, not during it, also I think he stopped the shunshin the moment he started making the rasengan



Mad Scientist said:


> *1.* If Shunshin is faster than physical movement, then how is it that KCM Naruto could block against A4 the , and the  where A4's attack was completely linear?
> 
> I'm going to address some points regarding Cee.


Both times the punch/parries happened after the shunshin stopped, the first time breaks it down showing that first there is the stop and then the punch



Mad Scientist said:


> I'm going to address some points regarding Cee.
> *1.*  (even the Hiraishin SFX was there). *Sasuke's reaction speed is even faster than Jugo's* (which can even be inferred from Cee's statement: "It's impressive they're keeping up. But Lord Raikage has manipulated his raiton chakra to augment his reflexes! _Not even the sharingan will be able to keep up with him._") So for Cee to believe that Sasuke wouldn't be able to keep up with V1 A4, V1 A4 *must* use Shunshin against Sasuke. If you disagree, why? Do you think Jugo's reaction speed is > Sasuke's?
> 
> *2.* A4 did use Shunshin against Jugo. That's the point of Cee's statement when describing V1 A4, that it's impressive for that reason.
> ...


1. Even Lee's speed burst has that sound:  , ; it's the sound an enhanced speed makes without other things covering it, so with that sound we just know it's some form of enhanced speed, shunshin or actual telportation jutsu (or also Kaguya's hair whip actually XD)

Anyway with Cee's statement out of the way A could've used shunshin to appear where the sfx was, now both ways are possible

That's not the case, cause Juugo didn't keep up with him he got blitzed

2. Wait how? Juugo got blitzed what's impressive? Cee even said "those guys" so he couldn't be referring to that single istance

4. Cause he introduces now the concept of A4 using shunshin, he's relived by the fast that A4 is going to use shunshin

5. I don't mean it can't be used in a scene with shunshin, just it doesn't represent the shunshin sound but the clothes one

I didn't say shunshin wasn't used, but that, if used, he just used it to get behind him not to attack


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 2, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Context isn't different for those 4 istances, I'm referring to the context of the whole entering the battle fight: Naruto vs A4 / Minato vs A4; I'm not saying there is a specific context that each instance represent; just saying that it's obvious that that fight was about shunshin


What about Minato's battle's context makes it obvious that those 4 instances used Shunshin?



trocollo said:


> Doesn't seem to me that he appears istanteneously, if it's instead the case then he used shunshin, I'd surely agree


The FRS reaches Naruto, then on panel 6 he starts moving, and then he instantly appears on panel 7 behind A3. How doesn't that resemble disappearance and reappearance?



trocollo said:


> Yes, why it wouldn't it be?


Because Shunshin doesn't always have that background. What the lined backdrop is doing with that seemingly unique faded style is indicating that Naruto is performing a very fast movement, that being Shunshin in this case, just like it did to the others. I am bringing this up to add further evidence that that movement was most likely Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> 1. Cause he needed to also make a rasengan to attack; it's possible it has also something to do with the cost of the jutsu giving he was short on the Kurama-link
> 
> 2. Cause those are the moment the shunshin is stopped, not during it, also I think he stopped the shunshin the moment he started making the rasengan


*1.* He made it instantly following his jump, so if you're claiming his Shunshin stopped at that point (or worse, right when he started making it), then he shouldn't have flew as far as he did.

*2.* *a)* Naruto didn't stop on panel 5. *b)* Also, in his 1st Shunshin, he hadn't even reached his destination, considering that his movement hadn't stopped, as shown by the lines over his clothes. *c)* And in his 3rd Shunshin, we also saw him clearly.



trocollo said:


> Both times the punch/parries happened after the shunshin stopped, the first time breaks it down showing that first there is the stop and then the punch


Naruto's Shunshin doesn't stop. He gets _intercepted_ mid-movement. Or do you think he just planned to stop at the exact place where A4 hit him? 



trocollo said:


> 1. Even Lee's speed burst has that sound:  , ; it's the sound an enhanced speed makes without other things covering it, so with that sound we just know it's some form of enhanced speed, shunshin or actual telportation jutsu (or also Kaguya's hair whip actually XD)
> 
> Anyway with Cee's statement out of the way A could've used shunshin to appear where the sfx was, now both ways are possible
> 
> ...


*1.* You've not answered the question. *Sasuke's reaction speed is even faster than Jugo's* (which can even be inferred from Cee's statement: "It's impressive they're keeping up. But Lord Raikage has manipulated his raiton chakra to augment his reflexes! _Not even the sharingan will be able to keep up with him._") *So for Cee to believe that Sasuke wouldn't be able to keep up with V1 A4, V1 A4 must use Shunshin against Sasuke. If you disagree, why? Do you think Jugo's reaction speed is > Sasuke's?*

*2.* The fact he wasn't outright blitzed. And Jugo and Suigetsu earlier kept up with A4 and Darui's attack. Cee is talking about them as a whole.

*4.* He didn't introduce the concept of A4 using Shunshin. That was already shown with A4 attacking Jugo. What Cee introduced was the idea of A4 using his V2 Shunshin to combat the MS. That has _nothing_ to do with V1 A4.

*5.* How can you tell that Sasuke wasn't using Shunshin to get behind A4?


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## trocollo (Sep 2, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> What about Minato's battle's context makes it obvious that those 4 instances used Shunshin?


It being a battle from two shunshin users (FTG gets referred as shunshin), like Naruto vs A4, Naruto needing to parallel Minato's shunshin aganist A4



Mad Scientist said:


> The FRS reaches Naruto, then on panel 6 he starts moving, and then he instantly appears on panel 7 behind A3. How doesn't that resemble disappearance and reappearance?


The way Naruto is drawed could both be a reappearance like not, something that would've changed my mind is A3 showing a "!" bubble, a pure shunshin sound for Naruto, people behind that go "!" when he does that
Now, inb4 other incompresnsions, I'm not saying that these things above are a necessity to have a shunshin or that are restricted to shunshin, but that they would make this scene sure to be a shunshin, cause an esclamation point of some sort from the observers or the "7" sfx would signify that Naruto used at least enhanced speed, but KCM Naruto goes directly for shunshin, so it must be shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> Because Shunshin doesn't always have that background. What the lined backdrop is doing with that seemingly unique faded style is indicating that Naruto is performing a very fast movement, that being Shunshin in this case, just like it did to the others. I am bringing this up to add further evidence that that movement was most likely Shunshin.


It "not always having it" it's different than outright "not having it", now we're doing the reverse argument
We don't need that as evidence that it was shunshin cause that thing is used even for just physically fast movements



Mad Scientist said:


> *1.* He made it instantly following his jump, so if you're claiming his Shunshin stopped at that point (or worse, right when he started making it), then he shouldn't have flew as far as he did.
> 
> *2.* *a)* Naruto didn't stop on panel 5. *b)* Also, in his 1st Shunshin, he hadn't even reached his destination, considering that his movement hadn't stopped, as shown by the lines over his clothes. *c)* And in his 3rd Shunshin, we also saw him clearly.


1. He just uses shunshin till he jumps and makes the rasengan, how that makes him not go that much up? Like he's a ninja he has super-human capabilites

2. a) He did, they stops with A4 intercepting his way and A4 punches him
b) He did stop as he didn't bumped on A4 nor A4 bumped into him
c) Wait so now we think the same for that? ( I mean you first thought that was the frame where Naruto's shunshin ended, while I took that as a frame of a stop motion) Anyway yeah we see him there and we can't know if he disappeared or not just from that but from what we read I think we can both agree that he did his third shunshin there, the panel after it's the same as the second shunshin we see the aftermath



Mad Scientist said:


> Naruto's Shunshin doesn't stop. He gets _intercepted_ mid-movement. Or do you think he just planned to stop at the exact place where A4 hit him?


Well, afterall yeah, for making sense this works better, so ok; tho for the point that we were making here this doesn't change it as it just changed the reason as why Naruto stops not that he doesn't



Mad Scientist said:


> *1.* You've not answered the question. *Sasuke's reaction speed is even faster than Jugo's* (which can even be inferred from Cee's statement: "It's impressive they're keeping up. But Lord Raikage has manipulated his raiton chakra to augment his reflexes! _Not even the sharingan will be able to keep up with him._") *So for Cee to believe that Sasuke wouldn't be able to keep up with V1 A4, V1 A4 must use Shunshin against Sasuke. If you disagree, why? Do you think Jugo's reaction speed is > Sasuke's?*
> 
> *2.* The fact he wasn't outright blitzed. And Jugo and Suigetsu earlier kept up with A4 and Darui's attack. Cee is talking about them as a whole.
> 
> ...


1.
"So for Cee to believe that Sasuke wouldn't be able to keep up with V1 A4, V1 A4 _must_ use Shunshin against Sasuke."
Disagree
"If you disagree, why?"
Cause it doesn't mean it's the next thing A is going to do is shunshin neither that he's going to do that in V1
"Do you think Jugo's reaction speed is > Sasuke's?"
Sasuke seems to be better

Inb4: "But A4 used shunshin aganist Jugo"
If he did, he did so to appear in front of him, while with Sasuke he didn't use it, as A was already in front of him; Sasuke ended better than Jugo cause his prediction gives him the ability to precisely read the enemy's moves, while Jugo with sensing can only sense where A4 was, so while both of them reacted Jugo could only put up a guard where Sasuke knew what attack was being made and could opt for a dodge

2. Jugo got blitzed, he wasn't defeated but he didn't keep up with A4 there; agree for the guys before

4. He didn't say he was going to speed up his shunshin he said he was going to use it

5. I can't tell that he wasn't but I also can't tell that he was; what is sure is that he used at least enhanced-speed


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## trocollo (Sep 3, 2020)

@Mad Scientist I know you didn't ask for it but I still fixed my response back there, so now is better and all since I corrected some things there and here, could still be trash for your standards tho Idk lol


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 10, 2020)

trocollo said:


> 1.
> Cause it doesn't mean it's the next thing A is going to do is shunshin neither that he's going to do that in V1


It's the most likely thing, given what Cee established, given that this is A4's standard move, and given that he's up against a sharingan user, who also attacked his brother.



trocollo said:


> Inb4: "But A4 used shunshin aganist Jugo"
> If he did, he did so to appear in front of him, while with Sasuke he didn't use it, as A was already in front of him


A4 wasn't already in front of him. When Sasuke's slicing failed, he stepped back. Why wouldn't A4 try to close that distance using Shunshin, especially since that's what he would need in order for Cee's statement to be validated, and since that's his go-to move and he can use it back-to-back?



trocollo said:


> 2. Jugo got blitzed, he wasn't defeated but he didn't keep up with A4 there; agree for the guys before


Not getting blitzed by physically reacting to V1 A4 _is_ keeping up (somewhat), since most characters wouldn't even be able to do that. Jugo and Suigetsu blocking Darui and A4's tandem attack is keeping up too. So Cee is of course taking into account Jugo.



trocollo said:


> 4. He didn't say he was going to speed up his shunshin he said he was going to use it


What's your point? V2 is faster than V1. V2 A4 willing to use Shunshin to combat the MS has nothing to do with V1 A4 using or not using Shunshin to combat Taka.



trocollo said:


> 5. I can't tell that he wasn't but I also can't tell that he was; what is sure is that he used at least enhanced-speed


In the panel beforehand, Sasuke wasn't behind A4. _Immediately_ following, Sasuke got behind A4 _in an instant_. This sudden reappearance, the SFX, backdrop, SBLs, said context and combat context (wanting to slice through A4 immediately) suggest that Sasuke used Shunshin to get instantly behind A4. In contrast, not only is there paling evidence in comparison to support this "enhanced movement" you mention, but if the likes of CE Sakura can operate such enhanced movement then we can suppose that every notable fast character can do and probably does do that continuously and thus it would be irrelevant. And the last time Sasuke used enhanced movement (initially against A4/Darui), he was reacted to without much difficulty, whereas getting behind A4 seemed to be a lot faster.


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## trocollo (Sep 10, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> It's the most likely thing, given what Cee established, given that this is A4's standard move, and given that he's up against a sharingan user, who also attacked his brother.


It's not enough to say it's likely, Cee didn't specify shunshin, he'll do that when A uses V2, and A motivation isn't "if someone kills my brother I use shunshin" it's "if someone kills my brother I kill them" in that scene if he decided to use or not shunshin is dependant on what we see happening, the point you're making is presenting the problem like we have never seen the fight



Mad Scientist said:


> A4 wasn't already in front of him. When Sasuke's slicing failed, he stepped back. Why wouldn't A4 try to close that distance using Shunshin, especially since that's what he would need in order for Cee's statement to be validated, and since that's his go-to move and he can use it back-to-back?


True, so it's possible that they used enhanched movement or shunshin, but what I can say you for sure is that they weren't using shunshin during the cqc exchange

Cause possibilityes don't make absolutes, and the most probable case isn't shunshin but enhanced speed since the chidori strike in based on the second



Mad Scientist said:


> Not getting blitzed by physically reacting to V1 A4 _is_ keeping up (somewhat), since most characters wouldn't even be able to do that. Jugo and Suigetsu blocking Darui and A4's tandem attack is keeping up too. So Cee is of course taking into account Jugo.


Fair, the way I was seeing it is that he wasn't fast enough to dodge so he got blitzed, but since he put up a shield he didn't really got blitzed by the speed but by the attack



Mad Scientist said:


> What's your point? V2 is faster than V1. V2 A4 willing to use Shunshin to combat the MS has nothing to do with V1 A4 using or not using Shunshin to combat Taka.


That he introduced the concept of A4 using shunshin, I'm not sure what you mean above but I made a difference by indroducing the idea of using shunshin and the idea bein already there but introducing the increrase in speed



Mad Scientist said:


> In the panel beforehand, Sasuke wasn't behind A4. _Immediately_ following, Sasuke got behind A4 _in an instant_. This sudden reappearance, the SFX, backdrop, SBLs, said context and combat context (wanting to slice through A4 immediately) suggest that Sasuke used Shunshin to get instantly behind A4. In contrast, not only is there paling evidence in comparison to support this "enhanced movement" you mention, but if the likes of CE Sakura can operate such enhanced movement then we can suppose that every notable fast character can do and probably does do that continuously and thus it would be irrelevant. And the last time Sasuke used enhanced movement (initially against A4/Darui), he was reacted to without much difficulty, whereas getting behind A4 seemed to be a lot faster.


I think I agree also here, but pretty much only for the first reason, from the scene seems like there isn't movement in before Sasuke appears, A4 isn't in a fight with him and Sasuke was on top of that structure when Jugo got lauched, so to appear like that behind him it would make sense for shunshin to be used
For the rest of the evidence I don't think it changes the situation cause:
Sfx, backdrop and SBLs are used for general fast movements, so they work for fast physical movement, enhanced speed and shunshin, they don't exclude the posibilityes of these other movements from shunshin
Context is being pushed out of it's bundaries, it's true that Sasuke wants to kill him but there's no reason to assume he'd go all out in that specific attack to do that, it's simply not what people do in this manga, on top of this he'd have used chidori to go all out

Enhanced movement requires you to dedicate chakra to it and it still has the problem of not being able to handle the speed if you enhance it too much as we've seen with Kakashi in gaiden, while when he got the sharingan, he was able to handle it like when the improved reactions of the 3T let Sasuke react to VotE Naruto


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 10, 2020)

trocollo said:


> It's not enough to say it's likely, Cee didn't specify shunshin, he'll do that when A uses V2, and A motivation isn't "if someone kills my brother I use shunshin" it's "if someone kills my brother I kill them" in that scene if he decided to use or not shunshin is dependant on what we see happening, the point you're making is presenting the problem like we have never seen the fight


It is enough because we're working with inductive arguments i.e. probability; we don't have proofs here. Cee implying that A4 would need to use Shunshin is the logical conclusion given that Sharingan Sasuke is even faster than Jugo who physically reacted to A4 who used Shunshin. A4 using Shunshin when in V2 doesn't mean V1 A4 wouldn't use Shunshin either. A4 with KI would obviously use Shunshin, since he can, he can use it back-to-back (meaning minimal preparation), and he would need to operate with such speed against Sasuke in order to validate Cee's statement.



trocollo said:


> True, so it's possible that they used enhanched movement or shunshin, but what I can say you for sure is that they weren't using shunshin during the cqc exchange


A4 _had_ to have been using Shunshin during the entire exchange given that A4's stopping point wasn't at the point they met in the middle, since that's not where Sasuke started. If A4 wanted to get to Sasuke and elbow his head as fast as possible in V1, he wouldn't just stop in the middle, he'd of course try to cross the full distance. They were using Shunshin throughout that exchange.





> Cause possibilityes don't make absolutes, and the most probable case isn't shunshin but enhanced speed since the chidori strike in based on the second


Probabilities can and do exist on a scale. Things can be more likely than others. Just because Shunshin is the most likely way that A4 crossed that gap doesn't mean that this is an absolute, that he definitely used Shunshin, it's just that it's the most likely possibility.

"Enhanced speed" isn't more likely, since A4 specifically needs to use Shunshin in order to validate Cee's statement, that implies only with A4 using Shunshin can "not even the sharingan keep up with" him.



trocollo said:


> Fair, the way I was seeing it is that he wasn't fast enough to dodge so he got blitzed, but since he put up a shield he didn't really got blitzed by the speed but by the attack


The speed was part of the attack. The same SBLs that were on A4's fist when it was behind him, was on A4's fist as he was striking. Both panels had backdrop lines too.



If Suigetsu can verbally react to A4's Shunshin movement, and you think that punch was merely enhanced speed, why was Jugo so late to _physically_ respond to that slower movement? The reason is that it's all Shunshin, like explained above.



trocollo said:


> That he introduced the concept of A4 using shunshin, I'm not sure what you mean above but I made a difference by indroducing the idea of using shunshin and the idea bein already there but introducing the increrase in speed


But he didn't introduce it first. V1 A4 used Shunshin against Jugo, _twice_. It doesn't take Cee's statement for a reader to know that V2 made A4 faster. Kishimoto was simply clarifying, through Cee, in case anyone had any doubts, how A4 will combat the MS, for narrative's sake. There's nothing special about him using Shunshin; what's unique here is his V2 speed. Cee's statement regarding V2 A4 has nothing to do with V1 A4 using or not using Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> For the rest of the evidence I don't think it changes the situation cause:
> Sfx, backdrop and SBLs are used for general fast movements, so they work for fast physical movement, enhanced speed and shunshin, they don't exclude the posibilityes of these other movements from shunshin


As long as you agree that was Shunshin, that will probably work for me, however I should note two things:
1) That particular SFX has been used at least five other times during Shunshin.
2) It's not just those three factors I'm considering, it's also the context, and also the fact there is paling evidence to suggest it's merely enhanced movement (which again if CE Sakura can do it can be assumed that every fast character is doing that all the time).



> Context is being pushed out of it's bundaries, it's true that Sasuke wants to kill him but there's no reason to assume he'd go all out in that specific attack to do that, it's simply not what people do in this manga, on top of this he'd have used chidori to go all out


He may not have went all-out but he was _very_ close to that. When a ninja has the opportunity to blind side blitz someone — their _chance_ to end the battle there and then — they are going to put a lot energy into that, which is why Sasuke used Shunshin there, and why Naruto was so strained when he got his chance during his bout with A4.



> Enhanced movement requires you to dedicate chakra to it and it still has the problem of not being able to handle the speed if you enhance it too much as we've seen with Kakashi in gaiden, while when he got the sharingan, he was able to handle it like when the improved reactions of the 3T let Sasuke react to VotE Naruto


How does this problem relate to Sasuke using Shunshin against A4, or A4 using Shunshin against Sasuke?


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## trocollo (Sep 10, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> It is enough because we're working with inductive arguments i.e. probability; we don't have proofs here. Cee implying that A4 would need to use Shunshin is the logical conclusion given that Sharingan Sasuke is even faster than Jugo who physically reacted to A4 who used Shunshin. A4 using Shunshin when in V2 doesn't mean V1 A4 wouldn't use Shunshin either. A4 with KI would obviously use Shunshin, since he can, he can use it back-to-back (meaning minimal preparation), and he would need to operate with such speed against Sasuke in order to validate Cee's statement.


A4 attacked Jugo with enhanced speed, at best he closed the distance with shunshin, so there's no reduction of speed with Sasuke
"A4 using Shunshin when in V2 doesn't mean V1 A4 wouldn't use Shunshin either." I'm not making this argument, A4 being able to use shunshin in V1 is a fact, at beast I was making the argument of Cee suggesting that A still had to use shunshin
No it's dependant on what we see if he used shunshin or not, just cause he has KI doesn't mean that he's going to use shunshin we have the scene where him attacked we don't need to assume what he would do, and assuming what he would do is in general highly speculative



Mad Scientist said:


> A4 _had_ to have been using Shunshin during the entire exchange given that A4's stopping point wasn't at the point they met in the middle, since that's not where Sasuke started. If A4 wanted to get to Sasuke and elbow his head as fast as possible in V1, he wouldn't just stop in the middle, he'd of course try to cross the full distance. They were using Shunshin throughout that exchange.


1. We already know the reach of the stopping point can be interrupted by Naruto vs A4
2. It can both be shunshin and enhanced movement, if it being shunshin at the start requires that also the exchange was done under shunshin, then it's not shunshin and can only be enhanced movement since it's not possible that the exchange was done under shunshin



> Probabilities can and do exist on a scale. Things can be more likely than others. Just because Shunshin is the most likely way that A4 crossed that gap doesn't mean that this is an absolute, that he definitely used Shunshin, it's just that it's the most likely possibility.
> 
> "Enhanced speed" isn't more likely, since A4 specifically needs to use Shunshin in order to validate Cee's statement, that implies only with A4 using Shunshin can "not even the sharingan keep up with" him.


And you're right, saying absolutes is an exageration since non even in the real world we can be 100% sure of something
Basically what I'm fine with is if there is a strong proof that "X" is the case aganist the other possibilityes

Cee's statement doesn't need that validation, he just said A has more up his sleeve not that he is going to use what he has more in that istance, and there's also chidori using enhanced speed



Mad Scientist said:


> The speed was part of the attack. The same SBLs that were on A4's fist when it was behind him, was on A4's fist as he was striking. Both panels had backdrop lines too.
> 
> 
> 
> If Suigetsu can verbally react to A4's Shunshin movement, and you think that punch was merely enhanced speed, why was Jugo so late to _physically_ respond to that slower movement? The reason is that it's all Shunshin, like explained above.


It wasn't cause there's physical movement (the punch and the guard up) in the attack, if is shunshin was so slow to have those then here we have enhanced speed

Remember that both shunshin and enhanced speed were possible, if Suigetsu could verbally react guess it's proof that it's not shunshin, why would it be strange for Jugo being so late in the physical response? He could be blitzed by the enhanced speed of A4 like react to it, there isn't really a problem that should limitate ourselves to one option



Mad Scientist said:


> But he didn't introduce it first. V1 A4 used Shunshin against Jugo, _twice_. It doesn't take Cee's statement for a reader to know that V2 made A4 faster. Kishimoto was simply clarifying, through Cee, in case anyone had any doubts, how A4 will combat the MS, for narrative's sake. There's nothing special about him using Shunshin; what's unique here is his V2 speed. Cee's statement regarding V2 A4 has nothing to do with V1 A4 using or not using Shunshin.


Yeah but that has already been solved like that, I'm telling you what I got from Cee's words but as I also said I dropped this point already for the genjutsu attack they did on taka at the start, so not sure what's the point of this, thought you were going somewhere else like getting the logic I used out of it, but I agree it gets contradicted by feats as I said, so maybe you just missed that?



Mad Scientist said:


> As long as you agree that was Shunshin, that will probably work for me, however I should note two things:
> 1) That particular SFX has been used at least five other times during Shunshin.
> 2) It's not just those three factors I'm considering, it's also the context, and also the fact there is paling evidence to suggest it's merely enhanced movement (which again if CE Sakura can do it can be assumed that every fast character is doing that all the time).


1. But all we know is that it's the sound the clothes do, so we can have it during a change of position, like during a punch, an enhanced speed and a shunshin
2. I know, what I'm saying is that those three factors don't let you exclude the possibility of enhanced movement from shunshin, to decide between enhanced speed and shunshin you can use context and other things, and I adressed both the context and your CE Sakura problem below



> He may not have went all-out but he was _very_ close to that. When a ninja has the opportunity to blind side blitz someone — their _chance_ to end the battle there and then — they are going to put a lot energy into that, which is why Sasuke used Shunshin there, and why Naruto was so strained when he got his chance during his bout with A4.


A4 had the opportunity to blind side blitz Sasuke with V2 from the start of the fight but he used that only after the MS came into play, Sasuke has the possibility to use chidori to have stronger piercing capabilityes but he just infused a sword with raiton, Sasuke had the ability to use shunshin at the start of the fight to get behind them with the raiton sword but he just charged non-caring till a water wave hit him, why didn't the raikage charged to replicate what happened in the elbow-chidori encounter and slam Sasuke on the ground from the start? He was enraged for his brother so no reason to stay put, but no, ninja simply don't go all out just cause seems convient to us, we can deduce if they used their all from what we see in the panels



> How does this problem relate to Sasuke using Shunshin against A4, or A4 using Shunshin against Sasuke?


I forgot to repond to that actually, this was the response to this part:


Mad Scientist said:


> but if the likes of CE Sakura can operate such enhanced movement then we can suppose that every notable fast character can do and probably does do that continuously and thus it would be irrelevant.


For Sasuke charging to A4/Darui he did that with regular speed, he just *Link Removed* on them


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 10, 2020)

trocollo said:


> 1. We already know the reach of the stopping point can be interrupted by Naruto vs A4


1. That's unrealistic, as even you yourself admitted that "it is too strange that the stopping point is there".



trocollo said:


> You could be right there, as *it is too strange that the stopping point is there*, tho he doesn't clash with the raikage they just stop there so seems to me they just stopped there by their choice as a means to not clash on each other ankwardly


And you say that it seems to you that they just stopped there by their choice, but this means that Naruto and A4 can perceive each other's Shunshin speed (as I've noted plenty of times), and it also warrants an explanation; how they can choose to stop there when that wasn't even their stopping point? How can Naruto stop his own _momentum mid-air?_



> 2. It can both be shunshin and enhanced movement, if it being shunshin at the start requires that also the exchange was done under shunshin, then it's not shunshin and can only be enhanced movement since it's not possible that the exchange was done under shunshin


It's most likely that Shunshin was used. The striking was through Shunshin because that wasn't the stopping point.



trocollo said:


> It wasn't cause there's physical movement (the punch and the guard up) in the attack, if is shunshin was so slow to have those then here we have enhanced speed


The same SBLs that were on A4's hand behind him, were also on A4's hand as he was striking, so we know he was using Shunshin while he was striking too. If A4 can use Shunshin while striking, Jugo can use Shunshin to block his attack. If Madara can physically react to V1 A4's Shunshin-aided attack, this shows that characters can do such things (which is why Jugo was able to, and KCM Naruto was able to as well). KCM Naruto, mid-Shunshin, even physically reacted to A4's linear Shunshin punch.



> Remember that both shunshin and enhanced speed were possible, if Suigetsu could verbally react guess it's proof that it's not shunshin, why would it be strange for Jugo being so late in the physical response? He could be blitzed by the enhanced speed of A4 like react to it, there isn't really a problem that should limitate ourselves to one option


No, it's almost definitely Shunshin. What looks like the Hiraishin SFX or the one that was used for Shunshin at least six times, the SBLs are such that A4 is almost starting to _blur_ (his hand weight _is_), he crossed a large distance so fast (compare previous panels), that's his go-to move, him rushing in to defeat Jugo... Suigetsu only said like two syllables or such, so it wasn't even much, and we've seen even _faster_ characters talk during movement anyway.

It's strange that Jugo responded that late because that physical block is at least as fast as Suigetsu's verbal reaction, and Jugo was reacting to a supposedly _slower_ movement.



trocollo said:


> A4 attacked Jugo with enhanced speed, at best he closed the distance with shunshin, so there's no reduction of speed with Sasuke
> "A4 using Shunshin when in V2 doesn't mean V1 A4 wouldn't use Shunshin either." I'm not making this argument, A4 being able to use shunshin in V1 is a fact, at beast I was making the argument of Cee suggesting that A still had to use shunshin
> No it's dependant on what we see if he used shunshin or not, just cause he has KI doesn't mean that he's going to use shunshin we have the scene where him attacked we don't need to assume what he would do, and assuming what he would do is in general highly speculative


"Enhanced speed" is irrelevant since if the likes of CE Sakura can do that, then proficient characters do that all the time. The context and visual indicators suggest that he was most likely using Shunshin.

If you're _not_ suggesting that V1 A4 did not use Shunshin against them, why do you keep responding to this point? I thought it was obvious you're bringing that point up because you're trying to imply that V1 A4 was not using Shunshin against them. I'm refuting that implication.

I'm not just randomly assuming conclusions based on KI, I'm using that plus _several_ other factors to deduce an educated probability of an event having taken place.



trocollo said:


> And you're right, saying absolutes is an exageration since non even in the real world we can be 100% sure of something
> Basically what I'm fine with is if there is a strong proof that "X" is the case aganist the other possibilityes
> 
> Cee's statement doesn't need that validation, he just said A has more up his sleeve not that he is going to use what he has more in that istance, and there's also chidori using enhanced speed


There isn't a proof. Concerning this debate, we're using inductive arguments, that is, what is more probable between one or more events.

Cee's statement definitely needs that validation considering it's such a bold statement; it's equivalent to saying that Sasuke wouldn't even be able to keep up with V1 A4. This necessarily means that A4 would have to use Shunshin against him because in order for Cee's words to be true, A4 would have to use Shunshin since even Jugo could react to his Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> Yeah but that has already been solved like that, I'm telling you what I got from Cee's words but as *I also said I dropped this point already* for the genjutsu attack they did on taka at the start, so not sure what's the point of this, thought you were going somewhere else like getting the logic I used out of it, but I agree it gets contradicted by feats as I said, so maybe you just missed that?


If you dropped the point, why did you make the same point again?

You responded to this point:


> *4.* *He didn't introduce the concept of A4 using Shunshin.* That was already shown with A4 attacking Jugo. What Cee introduced was the idea of A4 using his V2 Shunshin to combat the MS. That has _nothing_ to do with V1 A4.


With:


> 4. He didn't say he was going to speed up his shunshin he said he was going to use it


And when I asked what your point was, you responded with:


> *That he introduced the concept of A4 using shunshin*, I'm not sure what you mean above but I made a difference by indroducing the idea of using shunshin and the idea bein already there but introducing the increrase in speed


And as I've explained, Cee _did not_ introduce the concept of A4 using Shunshin. He only said that (V2) A4 was going to use Shunshin (in the context of combating the MS). That's all. Nothing there implies whether or not V1 A4 used Shunshin.

Cee's point there is irrelevant, so, if you agree, let's drop this point.



trocollo said:


> 1. But all we know is that it's the sound the clothes do, so we can have it during a change of position, like during a punch, an enhanced speed and a shunshin
> 2. I know, what I'm saying is that those three factors don't let you exclude the possibility of enhanced movement from shunshin, to decide between enhanced speed and shunshin you can use context and other things, and I adressed both the context and your CE Sakura problem below


*1.* Kishimoto isn't concerned with the sound effect of the _clothes_ they're wearing. What he's depicting is the fast movement.
*2.* Those three factors with the context do, as I've addressed below.



trocollo said:


> A4 had the opportunity to blind side blitz Sasuke with V2 from the start of the fight but he used that only after the MS came into play,


Why would he exert extra effort when that's not what he thought was necessary? He didn't even use V2 against Madara initially.



> Sasuke has the possibility to use chidori to have stronger piercing capabilityes but he just infused a sword with raiton, Sasuke had the ability to use shunshin at the start of the fight to get behind them with the raiton sword but he just charged non-caring till a water wave hit him, why didn't the raikage charged to replicate what happened in the elbow-chidori encounter and slam Sasuke on the ground from the start? He was enraged for his brother so no reason to stay put, but no, ninja simply don't go all out just cause seems convient to us, we can deduce if they used their all from what we see in the panels


Because they were analysing Sasuke and the Raikage trusted his right-hand man.

Since Sasuke moved very fast to take advantage of that opportunity to tag someone as fast as A4, him not going all out has little bearing on whether or not he used Shunshin there, for the same reason that A4 used Shunshin against Jugo but also wasn't going all out.



trocollo said:


> I forgot to repond to that actually, this was the response to this part:





trocollo said:


> or Sasuke charging to A4/Darui he did that with regular speed, he just *Link Removed* on them


What does this have to do with Sakura? All this is showing is that enhanced movement would be the norm, in which case it's irrelevant and nothing special.

The problem, in your own words, is that "Enhanced movement requires you to dedicate chakra to it and it still has the problem of not being able to handle the speed if you enhance it too much."

All you showed me was a page of Sasuke running seemingly normally, and I don't see the link here. Why did you link that page? How does that problem apply here? Are you suggesting that characters can't perceive Shunshin? Are you suggesting that Sasuke should have moved faster? I'm going to need detail and clarity here.


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## trocollo (Sep 10, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> What does this have to do with Sakura? All this is showing is that enhanced movement would be the norm, in which case it's irrelevant and nothing special.
> 
> The problem, in your own words, is that "Enhanced movement requires you to dedicate chakra to it and it still has the problem of not being able to handle the speed if you enhance it too much."
> 
> All you showed me was a page of Sasuke running seemingly normally, and I don't see the link here. Why did you link that page? How does that problem apply here? Are you suggesting that characters can't perceive Shunshin? Are you suggesting that Sasuke should have moved faster? I'm going to need detail and clarity here.


Ok wait lets solve this
You asked me:


Mad Scientist said:


> How does this problem relate to Sasuke using Shunshin against A4, or A4 using Shunshin against Sasuke?


So I figured you took that response for the last part of your argument, but as Ive said that reponse was for the Sakura part

Then what I wrote under is for the Sasuke part that you aked about above, the part for Sakura was already wrote before


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 10, 2020)

trocollo said:


> So I figured you took that response for the last part of your argument, but as Ive said that reponse was for the Sakura part
> 
> Then what I wrote under is for the Sasuke part that you aked about above, the part for Sakura was already wrote before


Instead of referring to several parts of which I presumably have not understood, you can clarify exactly what you mean.

I will ask the question again. The problem of tunnel vision with too fast enhanced speed... how does that relate to Sasuke or A4 using Shunshin against each other?

I'm not interested at all in how that affects Sakura btw. Sakura's irrelevant, and her perception level is garbage compared to the two noted.


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## trocollo (Sep 10, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Instead of referring to several parts of which I presumably have not understood, you can clarify exactly what you mean.
> 
> I will ask the question again. The problem of tunnel vision with too fast enhanced speed... how does that relate to Sasuke or A4 using Shunshin against each other?
> 
> I'm not interested at all in how that affects Sakura btw. Sakura's irrelevant, and her perception level is garbage compared to the two noted.


It's not related to them, they can use enhanced movement since they have the refexes for that, the problem was with everyone using it like Sakura, I'll put the part cause being clear is always better:


Mad Scientist said:


> but if the likes of CE Sakura can operate such enhanced movement then we can suppose that every notable fast character can do and probably does do that continuously and thus it would be irrelevant.





trocollo said:


> Enhanced movement requires you to dedicate chakra to it and it still has the problem of not being able to handle the speed if you enhance it too much as we've seen with Kakashi in gaiden, while when he got the sharingan, he was able to handle it like when the improved reactions of the 3T let Sasuke react to VotE Naruto


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 10, 2020)

trocollo said:


> It's not related to them, they can use enhanced movement since they have the refexes for that, the problem was with everyone using it like Sakura, I'll put the part cause being clear is always better:


So I take it that the problem is that too much speed creates tunnel vision, hence everyone can't move with such speed. That's fine. Everyone doesn't need to move too fast. Doesn't mean they aren't using enhanced speed all the time though. If Sakura can perceive her own enhanced speed, so can other characters. And by the way, even _Shunshin_, a faster technique, is able to be perceived by characters as the DB indicated. So there isn't a problem there.


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## trocollo (Sep 10, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> So I take it that the problem is that too much speed creates tunnel vision, hence everyone can't move with such speed. That's fine. Everyone doesn't need to move too fast. Doesn't mean they aren't using enhanced speed all the time though. If Sakura can perceive her own enhanced speed, so can other characters. And by the way, even _Shunshin_, a faster technique, is able to be perceived by characters as the DB indicated. So there isn't a problem there.


I'm not saying nobody can use it, but if Sakura enhances her speed too much, for example like kid Kakashi with the chidori, she'd end up in the same problem as Kakashi


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 10, 2020)

trocollo said:


> I'm not saying nobody can use it, but if Sakura enhances her speed too much, for example like kid Kakashi with the chidori, she'd end up in the same problem as Kakashi


Let's go on Discord for a bit, if that's fine with you.


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## trocollo (Sep 10, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Let's go on Discord for a bit, if that's fine with you.


Sure


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## trocollo (Sep 11, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> 1. That's unrealistic, as even you yourself admitted that "it is too strange that the stopping point is there".


Yeah that's why we decided that the reaching of the stopping point can be interrupted



Mad Scientist said:


> And you say that it seems to you that they just stopped there by their choice, but this means that Naruto and A4 can perceive each other's Shunshin speed (as I've noted plenty of times), and it also warrants an explanation; how they can choose to stop there when that wasn't even their stopping point? How can Naruto stop his own momentum mid-air?


Not sure if I get this like:
> And you say that it seems to you that they just stopped there by their choice
Didn't we agreed upon this? I was saying that they chose their stopping point there but I changed my mind cause of your reponses
> but this means that Naruto and A4 can perceive each other's Shunshin speed (as I've noted plenty of times)
Yes
> and it also warrants an explanation
On the question below? If yes:
>how they can choose to stop there when that wasn't even their stopping point? How can Naruto stop his own momentum mid-air?
Not sure, that was why I thought they chose their stopping point there, but the coincidence of their stopping point being there is more strange, that's why you convinced me of them chosingly stopping was the case



> It's most likely that Shunshin was used. The striking was through Shunshin because that wasn't the stopping point.


But the physical strike is slower, it can't be used during the shunshin, so it can only be enhanced speed



Mad Scientist said:


> The same SBLs that were on A4's hand behind him, were also on A4's hand as he was striking, so we know he was using Shunshin while he was striking too. If A4 can use Shunshin while striking, Jugo can use Shunshin to block his attack. If Madara can physically react to V1 A4's Shunshin-aided attack, this shows that characters can do such things (which is why Jugo was able to, and KCM Naruto was able to as well). KCM Naruto, mid-Shunshin, even physically reacted to A4's linear Shunshin punch.


But the lines just tell us is a fast movement, a punch has them cause it's strong and fast
Jugo can't use shunshin to block it's not what the jutsu does
Characters can do such things, for example Kaguya can react to V1 A shunshin even better than Madara, but my point isn't that nobody is able to react



> No, it's almost definitely Shunshin. What looks like the Hiraishin SFX or the one that was used for Shunshin at least six times, the SBLs are such that A4 is almost starting to blur (his hand weight is), he crossed a large distance so fast (compare previous panels), that's his go-to move, him rushing in to defeat Jugo... Suigetsu only said like two syllables or such, so it wasn't even much, and we've seen even faster characters talk during movement anyway.
> 
> It's strange that Jugo responded that late because that physical block is at least as fast as Suigetsu's verbal reaction, and Jugo was reacting to a supposedly slower movement.


What you pointed out is common for both shunshin and enhanced speed

Slower movement doesn't mean that is slow for Jugo, as makes sense than A4 physical movements are faster than Jugo



Mad Scientist said:


> "Enhanced speed" is irrelevant since if the likes of CE Sakura can do that, then proficient characters do that all the time. The context and visual indicators suggest that he was most likely using Shunshin.
> 
> If you're not suggesting that V1 A4 did not use Shunshin against them, why do you keep responding to this point? I thought it was obvious you're bringing that point up because you're trying to imply that V1 A4 was not using Shunshin against them. I'm refuting that implication.
> 
> I'm not just randomly assuming conclusions based on KI, I'm using that plus several other factors to deduce an educated probability of an event having taken place.



I'm responding cause you asked me, and you asked right after I said I dropped that point, so I took for granted that you knew that and wanted to test my previous logic or something to prove me wrong on something else; then I also think he didn't use shunshin yes

Sure but use factors that can determinate the solution, lines and KI don't prove that there is shunshin in place of enhanced speed, it's not a rule of the manga neither a connection the two have



Mad Scientist said:


> There isn't a proof. Concerning this debate, we're using inductive arguments, that is, what is more probable between one or more events.
> 
> Cee's statement definitely needs that validation considering it's such a bold statement; it's equivalent to saying that Sasuke wouldn't even be able to keep up with V1 A4. This necessarily means that A4 would have to use Shunshin against him because in order for Cee's words to be true, A4 would have to use Shunshin since even Jugo could react to his Shunshin.


If two things are probable then we can't chose, only if one of the two is considerable more probable than the other we can, otherwise we're just tossing a coin

Why? What Cee says is that A has more so why the need to restrict it to V1 A4, why wouldn't A use V2 to validate his statement?



Mad Scientist said:


> If you dropped the point, why did you make the same point again?
> 
> You responded to this point:
> With:
> ...


Did you really miss my post then? Like:


trocollo said:


> @Mad Scientist about Cee's phrase, I was checking the fight, and *Link Removed* feels a lot like shunshin to me, so I guess Cee's wording wasn't much correct afterall, so I rest my case there, or at lest half-rest, you can just trow out that part from the argument





Mad Scientist said:


> *1.* Kishimoto isn't concerned with the sound effect of the _clothes_ they're wearing. What he's depicting is the fast movement.
> *2.* Those three factors with the context do, as I've addressed below.


1. So do you agree? Not sure what's you point on him being concerned or not but I also said it's a fast movement
2. There's noting you gain with the fusion, these factors just decribe a fast movement, the decision if that fast movement is a shunshin or not is left to other factors or to the context, if the context can't rule out the other options from shunshin then you don't have a concluion with both of them



Mad Scientist said:


> Why would he exert extra effort when that's not what he thought was necessary? He didn't even use V2 against Madara initially.
> 
> Because they were analysing Sasuke and the Raikage trusted his right-hand man.
> 
> Since Sasuke moved very fast to take advantage of that opportunity to tag someone as fast as A4, him not going all out has little bearing on whether or not he used Shunshin there, for the same reason that A4 used Shunshin against Jugo but also wasn't going all out.


We'll prolly go nowere with this, since we already agree that Sasuke used shunshin there maybe it's better to limit the arguments


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## MHA massive fan (Sep 11, 2020)

I just have a few questions 
1. Can Kakashi form seals quicker than Minato ability to throw a Kunai in his direction 
2. Can kakahsi use kamui quicker than Minato ability to throw a Kunai in his direction 

the answer to both questions is no 
Thus normally kakahsi gets a rasengan to the face and looses


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 11, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Yeah that's why we decided that the reaching of the stopping point can be interrupted





trocollo said:


> Not sure if I get this like:
> > And you say that it seems to you that they just stopped there by their choice
> Didn't we agreed upon this? I was saying that they chose their stopping point there but I changed my mind cause of your reponses
> > but this means that Naruto and A4 can perceive each other's Shunshin speed (as I've noted plenty of times)
> ...





trocollo said:


> But the physical strike is slower, it can't be used during the shunshin, so it can only be enhanced speed


Perhaps I was mistaken, but in summary, given that the stopping point was still further, Naruto would have been in Shunshin throughout his thoughts and his physical reaction of blocking (after all, Shunshin vitalizes the entire body with chakra.) This demonstrates that Shunshin _can_ be used for strikes too, not just for enhanced movements.



trocollo said:


> But the lines just tell us is a fast movement, a punch has them cause it's strong and fast
> Jugo can't use shunshin to block it's not what the jutsu does
> Characters can do such things, for example Kaguya can react to V1 A shunshin even better than Madara, but my point isn't that nobody is able to react


No, that indicates the level of speed, as I've shown in that collage of images relating to the SBLs/blur.

As shown above, and since Shunshin vitalizes the entire body, it is completely capable of speeding up things like blocks too. For more evidence, Madara and KCM Naruto were able to hit off the ground harder, in order to jump faster, after activating Shunshin, because it vitalizes the entire body with chakra.

I guess basically what CE Sakura did, just on a higher level; perhaps _that_ was in fact Shunshin and not just some kind of enhanced speed?

The fact that Naruto was able to react to a linear Shunshin punch (meaning no "enhanced speed") demonstrates that Naruto was using Shunshin too, as enhanced speed wouldn't suffice to block a punch of that speed.



trocollo said:


> What you pointed out is common for both shunshin and enhanced speed



Hiraishin-like SFX is more common for Shunshin AFAIK. I don't know any examples of it being used for enhanced speed, whereas I can point out six for Shunshin.
How is such a blur common for A4's enhanced speed?
A4 blitzed Jugo across a distance of ~20 metres in a matter of 2 panels. In contrast, look at how long it takes Ay running at a speed slower than his top speed, across just ~10 metres, to get to Minato. This demonstrates clearly that the movement used to get to Jugo was Shunshin.
Enhanced speed isn't the go-to move of A4. It's Shunshin.



> Slower movement doesn't mean that is slow for Jugo, as makes sense than A4 physical movements are faster than Jugo


CS2 Jugo > Suigetsu ~ partial CS Jugo. If Suigetsu can verbally react to A4's approach, then CS2 Jugo reacting as late as he did to A4's supposedly _slower_ movement is unjustified if it wasn't all Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> Sure but use factors that can determinate the solution, lines and KI don't prove that there is shunshin in place of enhanced speed, it's not a rule of the manga neither a connection the two have


Enhanced speed is irrelevant though, if characters use that all the time. And again it's not just lines and KI. There is no proof, again, only probability here.



trocollo said:


> Why? What Cee says is that A has more so why the need to restrict it to V1 A4, why wouldn't A use V2 to validate his statement?


Cee said that _after_ the statement regarding the sharingan.



trocollo said:


> Did you really miss my post then? Like:


Hm... I guess we both missed it, my bad.



trocollo said:


> 1. So do you agree? Not sure what's you point on him being concerned or not but I also said it's a fast movement
> 2. There's noting you gain with the fusion, these factors just decribe a fast movement, the decision if that fast movement is a shunshin or not is left to other factors or to the context, if the context can't rule out the other options from shunshin then you don't have a concluion with both of them


1. You're saying that the SFX can be used to denote clothes, and I'm saying that's extremely unlikely to be the case here. What the SFX was being used for, most likely, is to reflect Sasuke's movement, not the sound of his clothes. I mean what's the point of denoting the sound of his clothes... and where's the evidence that it's used for that and not movement?

2. We use all the factors, including context, to decide whether or not Shunshin was used, as it is subjective. So far, the "rule" is that visual indicators of the kind we are referring to have been used consistently and proportionally to reflect speed in relative situations. My argument shouldn't be merely reduced to a "fusion"; those three factors are specific, and so too is the context.


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## trocollo (Sep 11, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Perhaps I was mistaken, but in summary, given that the stopping point was still further, Naruto would have been in Shunshin throughout his thoughts and his physical reaction of blocking (after all, Shunshin vitalizes the entire body with chakra.) This demonstrates that Shunshin _can_ be used for strikes too, not just for enhanced movements.


That's not possible since we see them stopping in front of each other



Mad Scientist said:


> No, that indicates the level of speed, as I've shown in that collage of images relating to the SBLs/blur.
> 
> As shown above, and since Shunshin vitalizes the entire body, it is completely capable of speeding up things like blocks too. For more evidence, Madara and KCM Naruto were able to hit off the ground harder, in order to jump faster, after activating Shunshin, because it vitalizes the entire body with chakra.
> 
> ...


But there isn't a comparison here, the only one we have is with A4 and Jugo where A4 appears fast and Jugo standing firm

Shunshin doesn't vitalize the body to make blocks but to reach a point in space, it's not what the jutsu does, you cast it to move your body in another place not to have a power up

Not really, Sakura just concetrated chakra on her feets as she says

If you mean the final punch of A4 to KCM Naruto then yes



Mad Scientist said:


> Hiraishin-like SFX is more common for Shunshin AFAIK. I don't know any examples of it being used for enhanced speed, whereas I can point out six for Shunshin.
> 
> How is such a blur common for A4's enhanced speed?
> 
> ...


1. Pretty sure we disagree if it's shunshin or enhanced speed in most of the examples, so I'm not sure how should I prove to you this, however one thing that has an easy absolute proof exist, who is Lee vs Gaara, where even with just the physical movements of weightless Lee we have the "7" sfx, and Lee can't do ninjutsu, at best we can get that he gains chakra enhanced speed when he opens the other gates but for sure that's not shunshin

2. A4 isn't special, it's common for him like it's for others

3. Paneles don't measure time with a constant rate

4. His go to move is the raiton armor, I get that he likes to use shunshin in fights but that doesn't tell us if he used it



> CS2 Jugo > Suigetsu ~ partial CS Jugo. If Suigetsu can verbally react to A4's approach, then CS2 Jugo reacting as late as he did to A4's supposedly _slower_ movement is unjustified if it wasn't all Shunshin.


Then A4 didn't make the initial approach with shunshin, problem solved
Still again, a verbal reaction is a verbal reaction, in case of initial approach with shunshin, Suigetsu just reacted to A4 reappearance, but this doesn't garantee that him or Jugo are physically fast enough to block a lower speed attack



Mad Scientist said:


> Enhanced speed is irrelevant though, if characters use that all the time. And again it's not just lines and KI. There is no proof, again, only probability here.


Call it irrelevant but the lines enhance fast movements not shunshin, so relevant or not, enhanced speed is part of fast movements



Mad Scientist said:


> Cee said that _after_ the statement regarding the sharingan.


Yes but so? It's when V2 pops out and a shunshin is made the sharingan can't keep up while we're still discussing if A4 used shunshin during his strike to Sasuke in V1 in the first quote



Mad Scientist said:


> 1. You're saying that the SFX can be used to denote clothes, and I'm saying that's extremely unlikely. What the SFX was being used for, most likely, is to reflect Sasuke's movement, not the sound of his clothes. I mean what's the point of denoting the sound of his clothes... and where's the evidence that it's used for that and not movement?
> 
> 2. We use all the factors, including context, to decide whether or not Shunshin was used, as it is subjective. So far, the "rule" is that visual indicators of the kind we are referring to have been used consistently and proportionally to reflect speed in relative situations. My argument shouldn't be merely reduced to a "fusion"; those three factors are specific, and so too is the context.


1. Ah no wait I also think it refers to a fast movement I was just specifing that it wasn't the pure one, same thing as when you have the one with the stiks when there's the interaction with the ground

2. Yes we gotta use all factors but the lines don't offer help in excluding kinds of fast movements, they just tell us where the fast movement is


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 20, 2020)

trocollo said:


> That's not possible since we see them stopping in front of each other


Can you prove Naruto stopped?

How could he have stopped such fast movement while in the air and with such a short period of time?


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## trocollo (Sep 20, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Can you prove Naruto stopped?
> 
> How could he have stopped such fast movement while in the air and with such a short period of time?


Thought that was your take, but seems like no, if that's the case then the strange one where Naruto choses the stopping point in mid air is less strange that this one, as we both think a ninja shouldn't be able to start a shunshin in mid air right?
Also what's your alternative here?


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 20, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Thought that was your take, but seems like no, if that's the case then the strange one where Naruto choses the stopping point in mid air is less strange that this one, as we both think a ninja shouldn't be able to start a shunshin in mid air right?


 

I'm referring to panel 8 here.

Did he stop or not?
- If you claim that he stopped, please prove it.
- How can he stop when he was moving so fast and in mid-air?
- If he stopped, then why does he have so many SBLs and why is his chakra trail still in full form?
- Do you believe that was his intended stopping point, and if so, why?


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## trocollo (Sep 20, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> I'm referring to panel 8 here.
> 
> Did he stop or not?
> - If you claim that he stopped, please prove it.
> ...


- We see that they stopped cause they became visible and if they didn't stop they would have bumbed on each other before A4 would've striked Naruto

- Replyed before, I was assuming "them chosing to stop" was your stance and "chosing the point" mine, as long as you think people can cast a shunshin in mid air (which I don't) I think that stance is more fair, but since that's not the case for both of us then surely doesn't make sense to stop oneself in mid air

- Why would he not have it? Those lines are part of even the end of a shunshin, like *Link Removed*

- Cause they stopped there, if they didn't stop it wasn't


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 20, 2020)

trocollo said:


> - We see that they stopped cause they became visible


The author showing them isn't proof that Naruto stopped. We've seen characters use Shunshin before but they're clearly visible.



trocollo said:


> - Replyed before, I was assuming "them chosing to stop" was your stance and "chosing the point" mine, as long as you think people can cast a shunshin in mid air (which I don't) I think that stance is more fair, but since that's not the case for both of us then surely doesn't make sense to stop oneself in mid air


I do not recall ever stating that Naruto stopped nor do I hold that opinion now.

How does them being or not being able to use Shunshin mid-air have any relevance here?



trocollo said:


> - Why would he not have it? Those lines are part of even the end of a shunshin, like *Link Removed*


Because if he stopped, then he would, at best, have very few SBLs. Show me an instance or two where he isn't moving at all and has that many SBLs. I would also advise you to refer to Naruto finishing his movement against V2 A4.

Naruto's had long trails, just like when he blitzed Kisame, so that's an invalid comparison.



trocollo said:


> - Cause they stopped there, if they didn't stop it wasn't


But A4 just jumped straight. Surely Naruto would have been trying to go further than the spot above A4?


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## trocollo (Sep 20, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> The author showing them isn't proof that Naruto stopped. We've seen characters use Shunshin before but they're clearly visible.


But they passed from disappear-like speed to visible, so they stopped



Mad Scientist said:


> I do not recall ever stating that Naruto stopped nor do I hold that opinion now.
> 
> How does them being or not being able to use Shunshin mid-air have any relevance here?


Yeah I figured such from you not replying to where I asked if you thought so, it was my mistake, still as I've already asked what's your view there? Cause I took these two as the only two possible ones, you have third one?

Cause that's the only way I could imagine why you'd think they would be able to stop the shunshin in mid air, long story short I already had a discussion for another matter about casting shunshin in mid air, while I disagree with it, two people still tought it was possible cause "manga logic" so I shortcutted my thought of you thinking that they stopped being consistent cause you would also have tought that shunshin can be utilized in mid air (so like you use an acceleration to start so you use one to stop), so when you ask me "how would they stop in mid air?" I'm like "they can't stop but I thought you took it as possible"



Mad Scientist said:


> Because if he stopped, then he would, at best, have very few SBLs. Show me an instance or two where he isn't moving at all and has that many SBLs. I would also advise you to refer to Naruto finishing his movement against V2 A4.
> 
> Naruto's had long trails, just like when he blitzed Kisame, so that's an invalid comparison.


But he stopped in the istance I posted

But there isn't Naruto in my example, and that would be another example, Naruto already reached the stopping point but still has the effects, it's to show he did a fast movement



Mad Scientist said:


> But A4 just jumped straight. Surely Naruto would have been trying to go further than the spot above A4?


Actually seems like Naruto *Link Removed*, but it doesn't make much sense cause *Link Removed* suggest that Naruto's jumped from right to left when he should be going from left to right


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 20, 2020)

trocollo said:


> But they passed from disappear-like speed to visible, so they stopped


That could be the author capturing that moment in detail, essentially slowing it down for the reader, so it doesn't prove they stopped.

Moreover, the same thing (disappear-like speed to visible) happened during Naruto's 2nd Shunshin, yet it was clear he was still in transit.



trocollo said:


> Yeah I figured such from you not replying to where I asked if you thought so, it was my mistake, still as I've already asked what's your view there? Cause I took these two as the only two possible ones, you have third one?
> 
> Cause that's the only way I could imagine why you'd think they would be able to stop the shunshin in mid air, long story short I already had a discussion for another matter about casting shunshin in mid air, while I disagree with it, two people still tought it was possible cause "manga logic" so I shortcutted my thought of you thinking that they stopped being consistent cause you would also have tought that shunshin can be utilized in mid air (so like you use an acceleration to start so you use one to stop), so when you ask me "how would they stop in mid air?" I'm like "they can't stop but I thought you took it as possible"


I still have questions.

I see. I don't think Naruto stopped and I don't see how he could have, for which I'm still wanting an explanation.



trocollo said:


> But he stopped in the istance I posted
> 
> But there isn't Naruto in my example, and that would be another example, Naruto already reached the stopping point but still has the effects, it's to show he did a fast movement


You can't just use the same image to say that that's an example of many SBLs with stopped movement, as that's circular logic. I've not done that to you as I've used other examples to back up my points, so let's see some fairness — please show me one or two actual examples of that many SBLs when KCM Naruto has stopped moving.

I'm going to forego the long chakra streaks argument for now.



trocollo said:


> Actually seems like Naruto *Link Removed*, but it doesn't make much sense cause *Link Removed* suggest that Naruto's jumped from right to left when he should be going from left to right


Fair, but surely Naruto would still want to pass the line that A4 makes?


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## trocollo (Sep 21, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> That could be the author capturing that moment in detail, essentially slowing it down for the reader, so it doesn't prove they stopped.
> 
> Moreover, the same thing (disappear-like speed to visible) happened during Naruto's 2nd Shunshin, yet it was clear he was still in transit.


Why could it be that? What happens there is slower than the shunshin they did so it can't be a slow motion thing

They also stopped there, we even see that just after that they *Link Removed* on each other



Mad Scientist said:


> I still have questions.
> 
> I see. I don't think Naruto stopped and I don't see how he could have, for which I'm still wanting an explanation.


You want an explantion on how could he chosenly stop in mid air? Cause that's what I wrote, if you assume shunshin can be used while in mid air then the same way you accelerate in mid air to gain speed you can also accellerate to lose speed



Mad Scientist said:


> You can't just use the same image to say that that's an example of many SBLs with stopped movement, as that's circular logic. I've not done that to you as I've used other examples to back up my points, so let's see some fairness — please show me one or two actual examples of that many SBLs when KCM Naruto has stopped moving.
> 
> I'm going to forego the long chakra streaks argument for now.


I'm not seeing the circular logic, you asked for an image with SBLs where it's the end of a shunshin and there it is, as you didn't think ends of shunshin could have that effect, you're asking more cause you think they're outliers?

Ok



Mad Scientist said:


> Fair, but surely Naruto would still want to pass the line that A4 makes?


Yeah that's why is strange


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## Trojan (Sep 21, 2020)

holy fuck, you are still debating? 

imagine needing 6 pages (and counting?) to debate this obvious topic where Kakashi gets curbfodderstomped

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Sep 21, 2020)

New Folder said:


> holy fuck, you are still debating?
> 
> imagine needing 6 pages (and counting?) to debate this obvious topic where Kakashi gets curbfodderstomped


All of this is actually just to decide when shunshin has been used

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Sep 21, 2020)

trocollo said:


> All of this is actually just to decide when shunshin has been used


I honestly don't know why this forum go into full retard-mode regarding Shunshin 

Every fanbase/fanboys legitimately believe that their favorites are V2 A, KCM Naruto/Minato's speed tier. Including, but not limited to
fanboys of Kakashi, Gai, Tobirama, Hashirama, Madara, itachi, Tsunade, the 6 Jinshhurikis, Nagato...etc etc

like why the fuck would Kishi make that an important plot point and keep repeating it if everyone and their mothers are as fast as them. That will only make them average at best


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## Lurko (Sep 21, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> @trocollo You seem to have used 1556 words in your second post. That is fine. I believe I have put in more than enough to counteract that.
> 
> Good luck
> 
> ...


You win.


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## trocollo (Sep 21, 2020)

New Folder said:


> I honestly don't know why this forum go into full retard-mode regarding Shunshin
> 
> Every fanbase/fanboys legitimately believe that their favorites are V2 A, KCM Naruto/Minato's speed tier. Including, but not limited to
> fanboys of Kakashi, Gai, Tobirama, Hashirama, Madara, itachi, Tsunade, the 6 Jinshhurikis, Nagato...etc etc
> ...


Yeah I also tought that much was clear, but from his perspective there are showings that put them at those speeds so it ended up in where did X and Y used shunshin, with different reasonings for both of us, as he takes panels with speed lines such as *Link Removed* as suggesting shunshin, while I'm on more critical effects to suggest that, like disapparances and flash-like thing, for now my points to his stance have been paused, and he's asking me other questions on a particular istance, so guess after these questions end we'll be back to my points to his arguments? Idk


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 21, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Why could it be that? What happens there is slower than the shunshin they did so it can't be a slow motion thing
> 
> They also stopped there, we even see that just after that they *Link Removed* on each other


Because Shunshin isn't teleportation, and Kishimoto is the author. Of course it would look slower if he's capturing it in slow motion. 

You haven't actually countered my point. I showed a moment where they went from disappear-like to visible yet hadn't stopped, so we know that doesn't necessarily show stopped movement. And of course they won't collide if they're not heading towards each other.



trocollo said:


> You want an explantion on how could he chosenly stop in mid air? Cause that's what I wrote, if you assume shunshin can be used while in mid air then the same way you accelerate in mid air to gain speed you can also accellerate to lose speed


If he can use Shunshin in mid-air, he'd only go faster, not slower. Shunshin does not have a deceleration function.

In order to go slower, he'd have to _devitalize_ his chakra, but even that won't stop his momentum, especially in such a short time period. He still had juice as he hadn't yet reached his intended stopping point.



trocollo said:


> I'm not seeing the circular logic, you asked for an image with SBLs where it's the end of a shunshin and there it is, as you didn't think ends of shunshin could have that effect, you're asking more cause you think they're outliers?
> 
> Ok


Correct me if I'm wrong, but your point is that if Naruto stops, he can have that many SBLs. I want you to _show_ me that this can *consistently* be the case. Show me, outside of this particular instance, _*at least*_ one or two instances where this _was_ the case, where Naruto had stopped but still had many SBLs.

Because as it stands, I can show you _multiple_ cases where Naruto is _moving *and* had SBLs_, which would suggest _that_ is what was happening over your view.



trocollo said:


> Yeah that's why is strange


So his intended stopping point would have been further.


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## trocollo (Sep 21, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Because Shunshin isn't teleportation, and Kishimoto is the author. Of course it would look slower if he's capturing it in slow motion.
> 
> You haven't actually countered my point. I showed a moment where they went from disappear-like to visible yet hadn't stopped, so we know that doesn't necessarily show stopped movement. And of course they won't collide if they're not heading towards each other.


Your point is that it's a slow motion, I'm asking how you got that, since the events happening there are already slower than the shunshin

But you didn't say why you think they didn't stop, while it seems they stopped; yeah, but they are, A4 wants to stop Naruto and Naruto wants to pass the kage



Mad Scientist said:


> If he can use Shunshin in mid-air, he'd only go faster, not slower. Shunshin does not have a deceleration function.
> 
> In order to go slower, he'd have to _devitalize_ his chakra, but even that won't stop his momentum, especially in such a short time period. He still had juice as he hadn't yet reached his intended stopping point.


Acceleration and deceleration are the same thing, if you can accelerate to increrase the speed you can also accelerate in the opposite direction to decrerase your speed



Mad Scientist said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but your point is that if Naruto stops, he can have that many SBLs. I want you to _show_ me that this can *consistently* be the case. Show me, outside of this particular instance, _*at least*_ one or two instances where this _was_ the case, where Naruto had stopped but still had many SBLs.
> 
> Because as it stands, I can show you _multiple_ cases where Naruto is _moving *and* had SBLs_, which would suggest _that_ is what was happening over your view.


My argument isn't that is consitently the case, just that it can be the case, as you're saying that since they had the lines they were in movement, I'm saying they can also just have finished the movement



Mad Scientist said:


> So his intended stopping point would have been further.


But that choice doesn't work, as you also said you don't think you can stop shunshin in mid air, so it's a worse one


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 21, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Your point is that it's a slow motion, I'm asking how you got that, since the events happening there are already slower than the shunshin
> 
> But you didn't say why you think they didn't stop, while it seems they stopped; yeah, but they are, A4 wants to stop Naruto and Naruto wants to pass the kage


How are the events slower than Shunshin? If it's because they stopped, you still have to prove that.

I'm only saying that slow motion could be a possibility, you asked how, I explained that Kishi is the author and Shunshin isn't actual teleportation it's just fast movement so it's entirely within reason.

It's fairly obvious that they didn't stop until the 7th panel; the background lines, the SBLs, the clothes/cloaks' directions, the direction of their bodies, the SFX, seemingly stopping at panel 7...





trocollo said:


> Acceleration and deceleration are the same thing, if you can accelerate to increrase the speed you can also accelerate in the opposite direction to decrerase your speed


When has vitalizing the body with chakra been shown to actively decrease speed?



trocollo said:


> My argument isn't that is consitently the case, just that it can be the case, as you're saying that since they had the lines they were in movement, I'm saying they can also just have finished the movement


You can't use the same image to show that that can be the case as you haven't proven he stopped.

Moreover, I have more examples of SBLs in line with movement than you have evidence showing otherwise. You seemingly aren't even willing to show me _one_ (or two) examples of Naruto having stopped but still having many SBLs. So as it stands, it's more likely that Naruto was still in movement as opposed to him having stopped. That is far more consistent and therefore likelier.



trocollo said:


> But that choice doesn't work, as you also said you don't think you can stop shunshin in mid air, so it's a worse one


I don't see any evidence that Naruto can devitalise/dissipate the chakra from his body, and as he hadn't reached his intended stopping point, he had to still have been juiced up. However, I think it's entirely possible that characters can take actions in between movement since it's their entire body that has been vitalized.


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## trocollo (Sep 21, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> How are the events slower than Shunshin? If it's because they stopped, you still have to prove that.
> 
> I'm only saying that slow motion could be a possibility, you asked how, I explained that Kishi is the author and Shunshin isn't actual teleportation it's just fast movement so it's entirely within reason.
> 
> It's fairly obvious that they didn't stop until the 7th panel; the background lines, the SBLs, the clothes/cloaks' directions, the direction of their bodies, the SFX, seemingly stopping at panel 7...


Cause A4 can't punch faster than he can shunshin

I know Kishi is the author but what's the deal with it?
I know shunshin is not telportation but what's with that? Teleportation can be in slow motion

They still stopped, that was the end of their run, speed lines surely help with fast actions, but why should they also give a condition of time? Since we go on on examples *Link Removed* you think Naruto was still running since there is his trail and lines all over the panel along with the sfx?



Mad Scientist said:


> When has vitalizing the body with chakra been shown to actively decrease speed?


Everytime, when you accelerate in one direction you are decrerasing speed in the opposite one (if you start still you gain negative speed in the opposite direction)



Mad Scientist said:


> You can't use the same image to show that that can be the case as you haven't proven he stopped.
> 
> Moreover, I have more examples of SBLs in line with movement than you have evidence showing otherwise. You seemingly aren't even willing to show me _one_ (or two) examples of Naruto having stopped but still having many SBLs. So as it stands, it's more likely that Naruto was still in movement as opposed to him having stopped. That is far more consistent and therefore likelier.


Wait so you don't think A4 stopped there?

I'm not willing cause it's useless for what I'm saying, I shouldn't have to find all the shunshin land istances the manga has and filter them to get more examples, cause I'm just saying it's possible aganist an idea who says that's not possible



Mad Scientist said:


> I don't see any evidence that Naruto can devitalise/dissipate the chakra from his body, and as he hadn't reached his intended stopping point, he had to still have been juiced up. However, I think it's entirely possible that characters can take actions in between movement since it's their entire body that has been vitalized.


I'm not saying he stopped by devitalizing it but with the same acceleration that made him speed up


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 21, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Cause A4 can't punch faster than he can shunshin
> 
> I know Kishi is the author but what's the deal with it?
> I know shunshin is not telportation but what's with that? Teleportation can be in slow motion
> ...


Unless Shunshin speeds up strikes too, which is entirely plausible given that Shunshin vitalizes the entire body with chakra.

You're asking me how Kishi can show it in slow motion. I'm telling you that he's the author so he can capture events the way he wants to, and fast movement can be slowed down for the reader's perspective. I mean, is there any reason why Kishi wouldn't be able to do that?

I'm not using the trail argument. It's obvious that Naruto only stopped until the 7th panel. Give me one good reason why they stopped on panel 6 in spite of all that overwhelming evidence of movement.



trocollo said:


> Everytime, when you accelerate in one direction you are decrerasing speed in the opposite one (if you start still you gain negative speed in the opposite direction)


I mean speed in the direction that one is travelling, obviously.

Slowing down isn't a function of Shunshin. Look at the databook entry. It only pertains to speeding up.

Show me an example of someone using Shunshin to slow down.



trocollo said:


> Wait so you don't think A4 stopped there?
> 
> I'm not willing cause it's useless for what I'm saying, I shouldn't have to find all the shunshin land istances the manga has and filter them to get more examples, cause I'm just saying it's possible aganist an idea who says that's not possible


I'm saying there is no proof Naruto stopped during his first Shunshin, as he hadn't even reached his intended stopping point and even if it's possible to devitalize the body of the chakra during such a short-time period he still wouldn't decrease the momentum enough to come to a standstill.

I'm not even asking you to find all the instances. I'm only asking you to find one or two. You're saying that Naruto has SBLs when he stops moving, which is quite a bold claim given how many pieces of evidence I've shown of the opposite.

If you're just saying "it's possible", then you lose the argument as my consistent evidence of SBLs being used _during_ movement would have a higher probability of being the case.



trocollo said:


> I'm not saying he stopped by devitalizing it but with the same acceleration that made him speed up


Acceleration increases speed. Acceleration =/= deceleration.


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## trocollo (Sep 21, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Unless Shunshin speeds up strikes too, which is entirely plausible given that Shunshin vitalizes the entire body with chakra.
> 
> You're asking me how Kishi can show it in slow motion. I'm telling you that he's the author so he can capture events the way he wants to, and fast movement can be slowed down for the reader's perspective. I mean, is there any reason why Kishi wouldn't be able to do that?
> 
> I'm not using the trail argument. It's obvious that Naruto only stopped until the 7th panel. Give me one good reason why they stopped on panel 6 in spite of all that overwhelming evidence of movement.


The vitalization is done to change position, not to get a new shunshin jutsu mode

He's able to do that, everything is posible in theory, but problem is still this


trocollo said:


> Your point is that it's a slow motion, I'm asking how you got that, since the events happening there are already slower than the shunshin




Your argument is that he didn't stop cause the effects were there, but that's not the requirement to not stop that's just the ffect of the speed they used, same for the example I posted; one good reason is that they became visible while before they weren't



Mad Scientist said:


> I mean speed in the direction that one is travelling, obviously.
> 
> Slowing down isn't a function of Shunshin. Look at the databook entry. It only pertains to speeding up.
> 
> Show me an example of someone using Shunshin to slow down.


What I'm saying is that accelerate and decelerate is the same thing, it changes because of reference system used, if you're slowing down you're accelrating with a negative acceleration, if you have the force to jump foward you can use the same force to push in the opposite direction and stop your jump; if you have accelerated in one direction, you can chose to accelerate in the opposite one to stop yourself, it's the same exact thing



Mad Scientist said:


> I'm saying there is no proof Naruto stopped during his first Shunshin, as he hadn't even reached his intended stopping point and even if it's possible to devitalize the body of the chakra during such a short-time period he still wouldn't decrease the momentum enough to come to a standstill.
> 
> I'm not even asking you to find all the instances. I'm only asking you to find one or two. You're saying that Naruto has SBLs when he stops moving, which is quite a bold claim given how many pieces of evidence I've shown of the opposite.
> 
> If you're just saying "it's possible", then you lose the argument as my consistent evidence of SBLs being used _during_ movement would have a higher probability of being the case.


But my example was the one with A4 and Darui

I'm saying everyone can have them, not just Naruto, seem like we just confused our examples

Have a higher probability based on a simple "it happened more times" isn't enough to decide what happened in a panel



Mad Scientist said:


> Acceleration increases speed. Acceleration =/= deceleration.


It just depends on the reference sistem, if you can accelerate you can also decelerate they aren't different


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 21, 2020)

trocollo said:


> The vitalization is done to change position, not to get a new shunshin jutsu mode
> 
> He's able to do that, everything is posible in theory, but problem is still this





trocollo said:


> Your argument is that he didn't stop cause the effects were there, but that's not the requirement to not stop that's just the ffect of the speed they used, same for the example I posted; one good reason is that they became visible while before they weren't


The entire body is still vitalized. That fact doesn't change.

You can claim that's just the effect of the speed they used but it doesn't match up to the other events. You still haven't shown even a _one_ instance where Naruto stopped but had such SBLs and appeared with such emphasis.

Visibility isn't a good reason as I showed that disappear-like to visibility doesn't necessarily mean one stopped.



trocollo said:


> What I'm saying is that accelerate and decelerate is the same thing, it changes because of reference system used, if you're slowing down you're accelrating with a negative acceleration, if you have the force to jump foward you can use the same force to push in the opposite direction and stop your jump; if you have accelerated in one direction, you can chose to accelerate in the opposite one to stop yourself, it's the same exact thing


One direction can only accelerate or decelerate (or stop). Naruto was moving _*forward*_ at a very fast speed. He can't accelerate in the other direction in mid-air as he has to first push himself (and he's not on ground); it isn't a function of Shunshin to slow down the user's speed.



trocollo said:


> But my example was the one with A4 and Darui
> 
> I'm saying everyone can have them, not just Naruto, seem like we just confused our examples
> 
> Have a higher probability based on a simple "it happened more times" isn't enough to decide what happened in a panel


First of all, that's just one example. There are plenty more examples illustrating the opposite. Second, Kishi could have easily captured A4 in the moment _before_ he stopped, meaning he was still in transit. 

It's definitely enough given that this is subjective and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of SBLs being tied to movement, not to characters having stopped.



trocollo said:


> It just depends on the reference sistem, if you can accelerate you can also decelerate they aren't different


Deceleration isn't a function of Shunshin. He hadn't even likely reached his stopping point, so he'd still have been vitalized.


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## trocollo (Sep 21, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> The entire body is still vitalized. That fact doesn't change.
> 
> You can claim that's just the effect of the speed they used but it doesn't match up to the other events. You still haven't shown even a _one_ instance where Naruto stopped but had such SBLs and appeared with such emphasis.
> 
> Visibility isn't a good reason as I showed that disappear-like to visibility doesn't necessarily mean one stopped.


I'm not saying that the body isn't vitalized

But it's the effect of the speed, what else it is? It matches, other speed events have the speed effect you're creating a connection that it's not implied by regrouping events with similiarites but that's not a proof, it's like I say since Shikamru binded only people in his shadow paralisis then prove he can bind animals, and if I show you a scan of Shikamaru binding an animal you say that's it's only one so it's improbable that he can bind animals with it

I'm guessing you mean when Naruto uses shunshin with the full backline, but there we don't know if he's visible, and he surely isn't since in the previous shunshin he wasn't



Mad Scientist said:


> One direction can only accelerate or decelerate (or stop). Naruto was moving _*forward*_ at a very fast speed. He can't accelerate in the other direction in mid-air as he has to first push himself (and he's not on ground); it isn't a function of Shunshin to slow down the user's speed.


Accelerate is = to decelerate, a positive acceleration is a negative deceleration, they're the same thing:


Agree he can't do it in air, we already covered this before



Mad Scientist said:


> First of all, that's just one example. There are plenty more examples illustrating the opposite. Second, Kishi could have easily captured A4 in the moment _before_ he stopped, meaning he was still in transit.
> 
> It's definitely enough given that this is subjective and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of SBLs being tied to movement, not to characters having stopped.


One example is enough to just say that's possible, and that's where he stopped he doesn't change his position

No, refer to the example of Shikamru binding animals



Mad Scientist said:


> Deceleration isn't a function of Shunshin. He hadn't even likely reached his stopping point, so he'd still have been vitalized.


It is, if shunshin can accelerate it can decelerate since again it's the same exact thing


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 21, 2020)

trocollo said:


> I'm not saying that the body isn't vitalized
> 
> But it's the effect of the speed, what else it is? It matches, other speed events have the speed effect you're creating a connection that it's not implied by regrouping events with similiarites but that's not a proof, it's like I say since Shikamru binded only people in his shadow paralisis then prove he can bind animals, and if I show you a scan of Shikamaru binding an animal you say that's it's only one so it's improbable that he can bind animals with it
> 
> I'm guessing you mean when Naruto uses shunshin with the full backline, but there we don't know if he's visible, and he surely isn't since in the previous shunshin he wasn't


People _are_ animals. Besides, that analogy misses the mark as the *opposite* of the point—_Naruto can stop and still have many SBLs_—is what has been established in the manga:
*1.* SBLs are overwhelmingly tied to fast movement / speed compared to any other feature.
*2.* Every time Naruto is moving fast, he has increased numbers of SBLs.
*3.* Not _once_ have I seen a stationary Naruto have any significant number of SBLs. Evidently, when Naruto has actually stopped, e.g. , he does not have any SBLs at all, whereas in the panel before where it was clear he was still in transit, he _did_ have a substantial number.

Given the "rules" established for determining whether someone is using Shunshin or not, and the context of Naruto not having even reached his intended stopping point during the 1st Shunshin against A4, it is most likely that Naruto was still in Shunshin when he "became visible" (to the reader). If his arms were not sped up by Shunshin, then he wouldn't have been able to block A4's punch, as his body would be moving too fast for him to do that in such a short period of time. This means that the vitalization of his arms increased the speed of his arms too (which is natural, since it's literally vitalized). What supports this further is the fact that:

 was able to _grab_ A4's punch while still in movement.

 was able to _physically block_ a linear attack from A4 even though Naruto hadn't reached his intended stopping point.

I mean when Naruto uses Shunshin , he goes from disappear-like (panel 5) to visible (panel 6) yet he still hadn't stopped once he became visible (panel 6).



trocollo said:


> Accelerate is = to decelerate, a positive acceleration is a negative deceleration,
> they're the same thing:
> 
> 
> Agree he can't do it in air, we already covered this before


If he can't do it in air, then he didn't even slow down, never mind coming to a stop.



trocollo said:


> One example is enough to just say that's possible, and that's where he stopped he doesn't change his position
> 
> No, refer to the example of Shikamru binding animals


It being possible doesn't mean it's likelier than the other possibility (your view). Plenty of things are possible. Doesn't mean they're all equally likely. Because determining speed is partially subjective, we have to use our best guesses. My interpretation uses a consistent "rule" the manga established, whereas your "he stopped even though he has so many SBLs" doesn't make sense and is totally inconsistent.



trocollo said:


> It is, if shunshin can accelerate it can decelerate since again it's the same exact thing


I see what you mean. Using Shunshin to accelerate backwards means decelerating forward, that's fine, but it's just not possible mid-air as we've agreed above, since Shunshin doesn't move characters, it merely increases the speed of movement.


----------



## trocollo (Sep 21, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> People _are_ animals. Besides, that analogy misses the mark as the *opposite* of the point—_Naruto can stop and still have many SBLs_—is what has been established in the manga:
> *1.* SBLs are overwhelmingly tied to fast movement / speed compared to any other feature.
> *2.* Every time Naruto is moving fast, he has increased numbers of SBLs.
> *3.* Not _once_ have I seen a stationary Naruto have any significant number of SBLs. Evidently, when Naruto has actually stopped, e.g. , he does not have any SBLs at all, whereas in the panel before where it was clear he was still in transit, he _did_ have a substantial number.
> ...


You're abusing your rules tho, you can't use a random probability to get a decision, you are confusing a solid proof with a probable result, for example:
If A4 does 5 fights and uses shunshin in 4, then A4 fights again, now after seeing the fight you can't say, that, since it's probable that A4 uses shunshin in fights, he likely used it in this fight, you need to decide beased on the fight if he used shunshin or not
You're doing the same thing with the SBLs they being around in fast movements doesn't mean that they have to take the meaning you found with more regularity around those chapters, from two possible things chosing the most probable one means to chose the one with the more solid proof not the one that resembles a previuos istances that happened more than another, that's an error of correlation, things like context, positions, statement are all part of the probability of something being X or Y

While it's strange that Naruto chose that as stopping point it's not possible for A4 to punch faster than he can shunshin so the strange option takes precedence

Bee wasn't in movement, that's were he stopped we see he remains there

We see the same thing before, A4 first intercept him and then attacks



Mad Scientist said:


> I mean when Naruto uses Shunshin , he goes from disappear-like (panel 5) to visible (panel 6) yet he still hadn't stopped once he became visible (panel 6).


That would work as example if we'd agree on it



Mad Scientist said:


> If he can't do it in air, then he didn't even slow down, never mind coming to a stop.


Yeah but already said that from the start



Mad Scientist said:


> It being possible doesn't mean it's likelier than the other possibility (your view). Plenty of things are possible. Doesn't mean they're all equally likely. Because determining speed is partially subjective, we have to use our best guesses. My interpretation uses a consistent "rule" the manga established, whereas your "he stopped even though he has so many SBLs" doesn't make sense and is totally inconsistent.


I'm not saying it's likelier, Idk what's the probability of that happening, to know that we'd need to ask Kishi what happened in the istance we are discussing, done that, we can count all the istances and all the favorable ones and say it's X proable to find this for every istance of shunshin drawed, but that would be of 0 help
But it's backwards, the incosistent thing is your rule cause it's not consistent with the examples we have, while my rule who is simply "they can be both" is consistent since we have examples of both



Mad Scientist said:


> I see what you mean. Using Shunshin to accelerate backwards means decelerating forward, that's fine, but it's just not possible mid-air as we've agreed above, since Shunshin doesn't move characters, it merely increases the speed of movement.


Yep


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## Mad Scientist (Sep 25, 2020)

trocollo said:


> You're abusing your rules tho, you can't use a random probability to get a decision, you are confusing a solid proof with a probable result, for example:
> If A4 does 5 fights and uses shunshin in 4, then A4 fights again, now after seeing the fight *you can't say, that, since it's probable that A4 uses shunshin in fights, he likely used it in this fight*, you need to decide beased on the fight if he used shunshin or not


No, I can absolutely say that, assuming A4 is at least comparably serious in both fights. I've said this before: _using Shunshin repeatedly is the way A4 fights_. Now, obviously context has to be considered, but I am using context appropriately.

Here are examples of why your logic doesn't make sense:
- If a coin toss yields heads 90/100 times, we can say that the next toss is likely to yield a head.
- If a boxer tends to throw uppercuts more often than not, we can say that his next move is more likely to be an uppercut.
- If Kakashi uses clone feints in several battles, we can say that he is likely to do the same in his next battle.
- If Sasuke uses Chidori/variants in several battles, we can say that he is likely to do the same in his next battle.
- If Sakura uses CES in several battles, we can say that she is likely to do the same in her next battle.
- If Minato uses FTG in several battles, we can say that he is likely to do the same in his next battle.
Etc.



trocollo said:


> You're doing the same thing with the SBLs they being around in fast movements doesn't mean that they have to take the meaning you found with more regularity around those chapters, from two possible things chosing the most probable one means to chose the one with the more solid proof not the one that resembles a previuos istances that happened more than another, that's an error of correlation, things like context, positions, statement are all part of the probability of something being X or Y


I'm not saying that SBLs _*have*_ to take that meaning. I've already agreed that SBLs don't _necessarily_ indicate fast movement, but based on the evidence it's a *fact* they are overwhelmingly used for that. It's already been established as a general _rule_.



trocollo said:


> While it's strange that Naruto chose that as stopping point it's not possible for A4 to punch faster than he can shunshin so the strange option takes precedence
> 
> Bee wasn't in movement, that's were he stopped we see he remains there
> 
> We see the same thing before, A4 first intercept him and then attacks


You have admitted that Naruto did not stop and you have not proven that he chose that spot to stop (instead agreeing it's too strange for him to have chosen that as the stopping point).Also, you haven't proven that the chakra vitalizing the arms can't improve the arms speed, so you can't rule out the possibility that it _can_ — and, that idea is even indicated by *a mid-air A4 that had stopped when he *_*swings Bee to intercept Naruto's Shunshin*._ 

​


trocollo said:


> That would work as example if we'd agree on it


_Why_ don't you agree that on panel 6 they didn't stop? They literally look like they're still moving, as *Naruto's right foot hadn't even reached the ground.*



trocollo said:


> I'm not saying it's likelier, Idk what's the probability of that happening, to know that we'd need to ask Kishi what happened in the istance we are discussing, done that, we can count all the istances and all the favorable ones and say it's X proable to find this for every istance of shunshin drawed, but that would be of 0 help


I've shown enough evidence that it can be established as a rule that SBLs indicate a character is moving fast. Meanwhile, *virtually no character comes to mind that has ever had SBLs while they're just standing still / stopped moving.* What you're doing is applying a non-existent pattern, making that out to be something equally probable as my view when in reality it is unsupported and therefore extremely unlikely.



trocollo said:


> But it's backwards, the incosistent thing is your rule cause it's not consistent with the examples we have, while my rule who is simply "they can be both" is consistent since we have examples of both


I'm not denying that _maybe_ the SBLs there were representing emphasis on something outside of speed, *but it's extremely improbable given that you have not provided even a single instance of someone actually, definitively having stopped that had SBLs of such numbers*. And my rule isn't inconsistent; SBLs _are_ used overwhelmingly to indicate fast movement (I've provided the evidence for this earlier.)


----------



## trocollo (Sep 25, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> No, I can absolutely say that, assuming A4 is at least comparably serious in both fights. I've said this before: _using Shunshin repeatedly is the way A4 fights_. Now, obviously context has to be considered, but I am using context appropriately.
> 
> Here are examples of why your logic doesn't make sense:
> - If a coin toss yields heads 90/100 times, we can say that the next toss is likely to yield a head.
> ...


Not only context but also simply the drawed feats we see withour eyes have to be considered

We can't, since we don't know what their next battle will be, but we can if we at least know that they fought a strong opponent, still that's not the case I made, I said:


trocollo said:


> now after seeing the fight you can't say, that





Mad Scientist said:


> I'm not saying that SBLs _*have*_ to take that meaning. I've already agreed that SBLs don't _necessarily_ indicate fast movement, but based on the evidence it's a *fact* they are overwhelmingly used for that. It's already been established as a general _rule_.


Ah nice then



Mad Scientist said:


> You have admitted that Naruto did not stop and you have not proven that he chose that spot to stop (instead agreeing it's too strange for him to have chosen that as the stopping point).Also, you haven't proven that the chakra vitalizing the arms can't improve the arms speed, so you can't rule out the possibility that it _can_ — and, that idea is even indicated by *a mid-air A4 that had stopped when he *_*swings Bee to intercept Naruto's Shunshin*._
> 
> ​


But that's consistent, the speed Bee is lauched is quite faster than the speed A4 arm is moving, for example, if the tentacle is long 6 times A4's arm lenght then Bee got launched 6 times faster than A4 arm, who's cosistent with shunshin being faster
I've not proven that vitalizing the arm increrase the arm speed cause it's not a thing, we don't have records of amped arm speed being a thing, we just have records of concetrating chakra in the feets to speed up, and we know of a justu to move your body somewhere else called shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> _Why_ don't you agree that on panel 6 they didn't stop? They literally look like they're still moving, as *Naruto's right foot hadn't even reached the ground.*


One feet up doesn't help your case if the other one is already braking, along with A4 braking with two
I said they stop since they go from non-vible to visible



Mad Scientist said:


> I've shown enough evidence that it can be established as a rule that SBLs indicate a character is moving fast. Meanwhile, *virtually no character comes to mind that has ever had SBLs while they're just standing still / stopped moving.* What you're doing is applying a non-existent pattern, making that out to be something equally probable as my view when in reality it is unsupported and therefore extremely unlikely.


Stopped moving yes, but as the end of a fast movement; the problem is that you're treating the manga as an anime, there are examples with SBLs when a caracter has just done his move, this is essential as the manga doesn't have the same freedom the anime has in giving the impression of movement, here's some random ones: *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* ; pretty sure there's a lot more, but point is speed lines are needed to rapresent speed, even if the event just finished you rapresent the whole thing in a single panel with them



Mad Scientist said:


> I'm not denying that _maybe_ the SBLs there were representing emphasis on something outside of speed, *but it's extremely improbable given that you have not provided even a single instance of someone actually, definitively having stopped that had SBLs of such numbers*. And my rule isn't inconsistent; SBLs _are_ used overwhelmingly to indicate fast movement (I've provided the evidence for this earlier.)


But I'm also saying they are rapresenting speed there, you just take it as they would still be in movement


----------



## Mad Scientist (Oct 4, 2020)

trocollo said:


> We can't, since we don't know what their next battle will be, but we can if we at least know that they fought a strong opponent, still that's not the case I made, I said:


Yes we can, as things that work tend to be repeated. That's human nature. What you're purporting is like saying that we can't say Gai is likely to use taijutsu in his next match; that doesn't make sense at all. If someone trains to master a specific martial art, and they enter an arena, we can say that they are likely to employ that MA.



trocollo said:


> But that's consistent, the speed Bee is lauched is quite faster than the speed A4 arm is moving, for example, if the tentacle is long 6 times A4's arm lenght then Bee got launched 6 times faster than A4 arm, who's cosistent with shunshin being faster
> I've not proven that vitalizing the arm increrase the arm speed cause it's not a thing, we don't have records of amped arm speed being a thing, we just have records of concetrating chakra in the feets to speed up, and we know of a justu to move your body somewhere else called shunshin


trocollo, first you say that striking isn't fast enough to stop Shunshin, then you say that _swinging an entire human (!)_ to intercept KCM Naruto's _Shunshin_ (!) is viable when that should be _even slower than a simple punch_. Why are you contradicting yourself? And how on Earth does being longer mean that speed increases by that amount??

You haven't proven it's not a thing. The evidence suggests it is, as Naruto was still in Shunshin but was hit with a strike (slower than Shunshin) before they crashed into each other.



trocollo said:


> One feet up doesn't help your case if the other one is already braking, along with A4 braking with two
> I said they stop since they go from non-vible to visible


Yes it does, as it shows they didn't stop.

Do you agree or disagree that they stopped on panel 7 and not on panel 6? If you disagree, why?



trocollo said:


> *Stopped moving yes, but as the end of a fast movement*; the problem is that you're treating the manga as an anime, there are examples with SBLs when a caracter has just done his move, this is essential as the manga doesn't have the same freedom the anime has in giving the impression of movement, here's some random ones: *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* ; pretty sure there's a lot more, but point is speed lines are needed to rapresent speed, even if the event just finished you rapresent the whole thing in a single panel with them


The finishing of fast movement is still fast movement. That's what the manga shows, and is consistent with the SBL rule. If SBLs were simply representing that a character or object had moved, then there wouldn't be a clear positive relationship between the number of SBLs and how fast something looks or is.



trocollo said:


> But I'm also saying they are rapresenting speed there, you just take it as they would still be in movement


I know that Naruto was still in movement against A4 initially because of the number of SBLs and how emphasised he looks and because he hadn't finished his movement, which suggests the SBLs were used to indicate him still being in movement. And if he was just finishing movement, he wouldn't have as many SBLs, as we've seen in several other cases.


----------



## trocollo (Oct 4, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Yes we can, as things that work tend to be repeated. That's human nature. What you're purporting is like saying that we can't say Gai is likely to use taijutsu in his next match; that doesn't make sense at all. If someone trains to master a specific martial art, and they enter an arena, we can say that they are likely to employ that MA.


But you can't know if it gets repeated, it's the autor decision, as long as the fight is drawed out we have the possibility to read it to decide if it was used or not, supposing that he used it regardeles of what happened isn't a correct choice, it's like I say that Gai didn't summon a turtle aganist Kisame cause he doesn't use that justu even tho we have seen Gai summon the turtle, about Gai using tajutsu that's his only figthing option so unless we know there were special circumstances we can assume it was the case



Mad Scientist said:


> trocollo, first you say that striking isn't fast enough to stop Shunshin, then you say that _swinging an entire human (!)_ to intercept KCM Naruto's _Shunshin_ (!) is viable when that should be _even slower than a simple punch_. Why are you contradicting yourself? And how on Earth does being longer mean that speed increases by that amount??
> 
> You haven't proven it's not a thing. The evidence suggests it is, as Naruto was still in Shunshin but was hit with a strike (slower than Shunshin) before they crashed into each other.


It's impossible for a normal human but ninja in general and A in particual have enough strenght to manage it effortelessy
By physics, the angular velocity is the same, the speed at a given distance from the center is: angular velocity x distance from the center, meaning that if Y is distant from the center 10 times more than X is then Y will have 10 times the speed that X has

That's being still talked about tho



Mad Scientist said:


> Yes it does, as it shows they didn't stop.
> 
> Do you agree or disagree that they stopped on panel 7 and not on panel 6? If you disagree, why?


But that's not a response to what I said, like you asked me why i think they stopped there, I said why, you want me to counter this point with: "No it doesn't, as it shows they didn't stop"?

I mean I just said it in this same post you quoted why I think they stopped in panel 6



Mad Scientist said:


> The finishing of fast movement is still fast movement. That's what the manga shows, and is consistent with the SBL rule. If SBLs were simply representing that a character or object had moved, then there wouldn't be a clear positive relationship between the number of SBLs and how fast something looks or is.
> 
> I know that Naruto was still in movement against A4 initially because of the number of SBLs and how emphasised he looks and because he hadn't finished his movement, which suggests the SBLs were used to indicate him still being in movement. And if he was just finishing movement, he wouldn't have as many SBLs, as we've seen in several other cases.


But the examples I posted show that's not the case


----------



## Mad Scientist (Oct 4, 2020)

trocollo said:


> But you can't know if it gets repeated, it's the autor decision, as long as the fight is drawed out we have the possibility to read it to decide if it was used or not, supposing that he used it regardeles of what happened isn't a correct choice, it's like I say that Gai didn't summon a turtle aganist Kisame cause he doesn't use that justu even tho we have seen Gai summon the turtle, about Gai using tajutsu that's his only figthing option so unless we know there were special circumstances we can assume it was the case


I'm not saying it _will_ get repeated; I'm saying that we can safely make reasonable predictions, reasonable because they follow a pattern. Gai doesn't even use a turtle often, so your analogy is flawed, and my example of Gai using taijutsu debunked your argument anyway.

And, if V1 A4 wasn't likely using Shunshin at the FKS, then I ask _*why* (especially when we know he can easily do it back-to-back)? _



trocollo said:


> It's impossible for a normal human *but ninja in general and A in particual have enough strenght to manage it effortelessy*
> By physics, the angular velocity is the same, the speed at a given distance from the center is: angular velocity x distance from the center, meaning that if Y is distant from the center 10 times more than X is then Y will have 10 times the speed that X has
> 
> That's being still talked about tho


No they don't. Swinging someone as heavy as Bee to intercept a *Shunshin* from a character as fast as KCM Naruto isn't realistic, _especially_ when Naruto seemed to move before A4 even seemed to lug Bee.

You're pulling this formula out of thin air, it's baseless headcanon, and you didn't even provide any in-context values to explain why it was possible for A4's Bee swing to intercept KCM Naruto's Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> But that's not a response to what I said, like you asked me why i think they stopped there, I said why, you want me to counter this point with: "No it doesn't, as it shows they didn't stop"?
> 
> I mean I just said it in this same post you quoted why I think they stopped in panel 6


Just because his foot is braking doesn't necessarily mean he _stopped_, and that's evident from the panel, they were still in transit, which is part of the reason the SFX were still there. At best you can say they were finishing movement, but that's still movement.



trocollo said:


> But the examples I posted show that's not the case


No they don't. You just added a bunch of links expecting me to agree on them being evidence of SBLs representing a character having moved, but I've refuted that claim since *it's been  that the number of SBLs are proportional to speed of movement*, so they can't just be representing a movement having occurred (or at least aren't likely to).


----------



## trocollo (Oct 4, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> I'm not saying it _will_ get repeated; I'm saying that we can safely make reasonable predictions, reasonable because they follow a pattern. Gai doesn't even use a turtle often, so your analogy is flawed, and my example of Gai using taijutsu debunked your argument anyway.
> 
> And, if V1 A4 wasn't likely using Shunshin at the FKS, then I ask _*why* (especially when we know he can easily do it back-to-back)?_


I'm saying we don't need to made a prediction if we can read what happened, whatever prediction you made isn't going to to be useful when we have already the fight
Gai doesn't use the turtle often, and that's why I made the example about "not using it" not about "using it"
If A only option in fight was shunshin it would, your example translates to me saying that A will not use ninjutsu or taijutsu in a fight, I'm not saying that

We simply see it in the fight, if you want to say he was using shunshin in a particular istance argue for him using it in that istance, cause again, we have the fight



Mad Scientist said:


> No they don't. Swinging someone as heavy as Bee to intercept a *Shunshin* from a character as fast as KCM Naruto isn't realistic, _especially_ when Naruto seemed to move before A4 even seemed to lug Bee.
> 
> You're pulling this formula out of thin air, it's baseless headcanon, and you didn't even provide any in-context values to explain why it was possible for A4's Bee swing to intercept KCM Naruto's Shunshin.


Yes for a normal human, no for a ninja, it's effortless for A

I pulled this formula out of how things work, common sense alone should already tell you that your hand moves faster than your arm, Idk how you find this strange



Mad Scientist said:


> Just because his foot is braking doesn't necessarily mean he _stopped_, and that's evident from the panel, they were still in transit, which is part of the reason the SFX were still there. At best you can say they were finishing movement, but that's still movement.


But ninja don't decelerate in considerable spaces, we just see them stopping in a really short time, still we can also say they more than halved their speed if you want, what it won't change is that we see them becoming visible again with foots dragging on ground so for all it's worth they aren't moving at that super shunshin speed there



Mad Scientist said:


> No they don't. You just added a bunch of links expecting me to agree on them being evidence of SBLs representing a character having moved, but I've refuted that claim since *it's been  that the number of SBLs are proportional to speed of movement*, so they can't just be representing a movement having occurred (or at least aren't likely to).


Don't get how the fisrt part of what you said makes sense with the second one, cause all I just said is that you have those lines even when they stop, I'm not making a comparison of speeds, I'm just showing you that the speed lines are there


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 5, 2020)

Dear goodness. How has this gone on for five pages?


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## trocollo (Oct 5, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Dear goodness. How has this gone on for five pages?


Idk but I think we're more than halfway trough to conclude the first point, after that only 5/6 more points or so to argue and it's done


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## Mad Scientist (Oct 5, 2020)

trocollo said:


> I'm saying we don't need to made a prediction if we can read what happened, whatever prediction you made isn't going to to be useful when we have already the fight


Indeed! We have the fight. And we saw that A4 used Shunshin _several_ times, across several battles, so why wouldn't he be likely to use it against Sasuke _especially_ when Sasuke's even _superior_ to his subordinates whom A4 used Shunshin against _and_ has a sharingan?? Why on Earth would A4 not use Shunshin against him in the following scene?

​


----------



## trocollo (Oct 5, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Indeed! We have the fight. And we saw that A4 used Shunshin _several_ times, across several battles, so why wouldn't he be likely to use it against Sasuke _especially_ when Sasuke's even _superior_ to his subordinates whom A4 used Shunshin against _and_ has a sharingan?? Why on Earth would A4 not use Shunshin against him in the following scene?
> 
> ​


You're still posing the question wrongly, I'm not giving you a mental analisys of what A wanted to do, I'm giving you what I get from the fight I read, if you want to know if he used shunshin just look at the page you posted, by what happens A does a physical attack there, who's slower than shunshin, and Sasuke doesn't use shunshin with chidori but the regular enhanced speed, so what works is that A enhaced his speed in the same way Sasuke did with the chidori, not with shunshin, or it's also possible that he used shunshin to get there and proceded with the attack


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## Mad Scientist (Oct 5, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Yes for a normal human, no for a ninja, it's effortless for A
> 
> I pulled this formula out of how things work, common sense alone should already tell you that your hand moves faster than your arm, Idk how you find this strange


You've provided no *evidence* for it being effortless. A4 isn't simply moving his hand, he's moving his entire arm _(obviously)_, and it makes no sense for A4 moving his entire arm while swinging an 87 kg human to be fast enough to intercept KCM Naruto's Shunshin unless A4 sped up that attack with Shunshin too.

You pulled this formula out of thin air, provided no in-context values, and no, common sense alone should tell *you* that A4's attack shouldn't be fast enough to have stopped KCM Naruto there unless he could speed up his arm with Shunshin (which is what Naruto does with his chakra arms).



trocollo said:


> if you want to know if he used shunshin just look at the page you posted, by what happens A does a physical attack there, who's slower than shunshin,


If A4's _elbow attack _is slower than Shunshin, then A4 moving his entire arm to swing an 87 kg human to intercept KCM Naruto's Shunshin is not possible unless he can speed up his arm with Shunshin too, as "enhanced speed" just won't cut it.



trocollo said:


> Gai doesn't use the turtle often, and that's why I made the example about "not using it" not about "using it"


trocollo, why are you being so vague here? You've done this multiple times now.

If Gai doesn't use turtles often, then we can say he isn't likely to use a turtle. If Gai does use turtles a lot, then we can say he is. None of that necessitates a definite use though as I've said before, but the idea that A4 didn't use Shunshin to attack Sasuke inasmuch he did to attack KCM Naruto using Shunshin  *where it does not at all look like A4 "stopped" before punching* or *like he did to Jugo * is complete nonsense, as he'd _*have *_to move that fast against Jugo's superior to compete with him and to attempt validating Cee's statement about "not even the sharingan can keep up with him".



trocollo said:


> But ninja don't decelerate in considerable spaces, we just see them stopping in a really short time, still we can also say they more than halved their speed if you want, what it won't change is that we see them becoming visible again with foots dragging on ground so for all it's worth they aren't moving at that super shunshin speed there


They aren't moving at that speed _because_ they are breaking, not because they weren't still juiced up on Shunshin. And it doesn't even matter: we've seen characters before visible yet still in Shunshin (provided several examples of this earlier), so _*you*_ have to prove that Naruto stopped *or* was stopp_ing_ during A4's first clash with him, but I think we've agreed that wasn't even Naruto's stopping point and he can't decelerate without getting some kind of kick in the opposite direction he was travelling, which means that A4 had to have powered up his arm's speed using Shunshin as physical attacks (otherwise) are slower than Shunshin.



trocollo said:


> Don't get how the fisrt part of what you said makes sense with the second one, cause all I just said is that you have those lines even when they stop, I'm not making a comparison of speeds, I'm just showing you that the speed lines are there


I *agree* they have those lines when characters are _finishing movement / stopping_, but the _*number*_ of SBLs is less _because_ their speeds are being reduced (fitting the relationship between the two variables, rate of movement and number of SBLs). This is most likely the case (as opposed to them simply representing a movement having occurred) since that relationship _does_ exist and is the way that Kishimoto can represent differences in speed.


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## Mad Scientist (Oct 5, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Dear goodness. How has this gone on for five pages?


@trocollo thinks that A4 didn't use Shunshin to attack Sasuke, only to get to him (which is nonsense), and he also believes that vitalising the arm with chakra does not increase the speed of a punch (which again isn't true).

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Oct 5, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> You've provided no *evidence* for it being effortless. A4 isn't simply moving his hand, he's moving his entire arm _(obviously)_, and it makes no sense for A4 moving his entire arm while swinging an 87 kg human to be fast enough to intercept KCM Naruto's Shunshin unless A4 sped up that attack with Shunshin too.
> 
> You pulled this formula out of thin air, provided no in-context values, and no, common sense alone should tell *you* that A4's attack shouldn't be fast enough to have stopped KCM Naruto there unless he could speed up his arm with Shunshin (which is what Naruto does with his chakra arms).


Cause we already know A is super strong, if CE Sasuke can *Link Removed*, A can effortlesy move a single person
I know he isn't simply moving his hand, that was what I said in the point below, not this, in how angular velocity works, you like anyone else can move the hand faster than the arm

I pulled it from classical mechanics / common sense; what are in-context values? I agree but like if A4 didn't have things to swing around, normally is arm would need to be speeded up to catch him



Mad Scientist said:


> If A4's _elbow attack _is slower than Shunshin, then A4 moving his entire arm to swing an 87 kg human to intercept KCM Naruto's Shunshin is not possible unless he can speed up his arm with Shunshin too, as "enhanced speed" just won't cut it.


Not if 87 kg are nothing for A4
Then you missed the point on Sasuke using enhanced speed with chidori and not shunshin



Mad Scientist said:


> trocollo, why are you being so vague here? You've done this multiple times now.
> 
> If Gai doesn't use turtles often, then we can say he isn't likely to use a turtle. If Gai does use turtles a lot, then we can say he is. None of that necessitates a definite use though as I've said before, but the idea that A4 didn't use Shunshin to attack Sasuke inasmuch he did to attack KCM Naruto using Shunshin  *where it does not at all look like A4 "stopped" before punching* or *like he did to Jugo * is complete nonsense, as he'd _*have *_to move that fast against Jugo's superior to compete with him and to attempt validating Cee's statement about "not even the sharingan can keep up with him".


I don't get why you define it vague, you misred my post, I didn't argue for Gai using the turtle but for him not using it, i pecified that since you responded as I had said that Gai would have used the turtle

Then we agree, see how you are posting panels to prove something happened and not just "A4 usually uses it"



Mad Scientist said:


> They aren't moving at that speed _because_ they are breaking, not because they weren't still juiced up on Shunshin. And it doesn't even matter: we've seen characters before visible yet still in Shunshin (provided several examples of this earlier), so _*you*_ have to prove that Naruto stopped *or* was stopp_ing_ during A4's first clash with him, but I think we've agreed that wasn't even Naruto's stopping point and he can't decelerate without getting some kind of kick in the opposite direction he was travelling, which means that A4 had to have powered up his arm's speed using Shunshin as physical attacks (otherwise) are slower than Shunshin.


I mean it's fine by me, they still aren't moving at that speed, who's all I'm saying in the end, I think they stopped on that point you can think they stopped a bit further, but what matters is that they weren't at their previou speed there

I mean I agree that we see characters using shunshin before being visible, but that's not supposed to be your point, so Idk, you mean like visible and in shunshin right? But if that's the case there aren't several examples, we disagree on them, if that wasn't the case we would not be having this dicussion



Mad Scientist said:


> I *agree* they have those lines when characters are _finishing movement / stopping_, but the _*number*_ of SBLs is less _because_ their speeds are being reduced (fitting the relationship between the two variables, rate of movement and number of SBLs). This is most likely the case (as opposed to them simply representing a movement having occurred) since that relationship _does_ exist and is the way that Kishimoto can represent differences in speed.


Is less compared to what? The difference in number of SBLs can be relevant in the same fight on some occasions, but surley you can't compare it between different fights


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 5, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> @trocollo thinks that A4 didn't use Shunshin to attack Sasuke, only to get to him (which is nonsense)



I think he's right on this one. I don't see how this is ''nonsense''.



Mad Scientist said:


> and he also believes that vitalising the arm with chakra does not increase the speed of a punch (which again isn't true).



Based on what evidence is it untrue? There's no proof vitalizing the arm with chakra makes it faster.

The only time we've been told that vitalizing your body with chakra makes you faster is in reference to the Body Flicker.


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## trocollo (Oct 5, 2020)

@Mad Scientist


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## Mad Scientist (Oct 5, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I think he's right on this one. I don't see how this is ''nonsense''.


- We know that V1 A4 can use Shunshin back-to-back several times without much difficulty (demonstrated against Naruto).
- We know that V1 A4 needed to use Shunshin against Sasuke's subordinate (Jugo), and we know that Cee believed even the sharingan wouldn't be able to keep up with V1 A4.
- We also know that A4 knew that he was up against someone that tried to abduct his brother, _and_ he was a sharingan user which A4 is quite adamant on being able to withstand/defeat.

So, given that V1 A4 can use Shunshin without much difficulty and even do it back-to-back, and Sasuke's a dangerous enemy he would need to defeat with speed >= that used against the likes of Jugo, and that A4 has reason to kill Sasuke, it makes complete sense that V1 A4 would have used Shunshin to give Sasuke a good knock in his face. If A4 didn't use Shunshin during their clash, why _not?_ Like how would A4 expect to even hit Jugo's sharingan-wielding boss while using an inferior speed compared to that which he used against Sasuke's subordinate?



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Based on what evidence is it untrue? There's no proof vitalizing the arm with chakra makes it faster.
> 
> The only time we've been told that vitalizing your body with chakra makes you faster is in reference to the Body Flicker.


Well, I'll start with two examples. (I'm going to structure this in such a way that you can easily point out what you disagree with.)

Example 1

*Spoiler*: __ 








1. While Naruto was still in Shunshin movement,
2. A4 jumped up and punched him before they crashed into each other.
3. Since punching is slower than Shunshin (under your assumption that Shunshin/vitalizing the body with chakra doesn't increase striking speed),
4. this means that A4's punching speed had to be on the level of Shunshin.

Example 2

*Spoiler*: __ 








1. A4 was able to _swing_ an 87 kg man,
2. resulting in an interception of Naruto's Shunshin.
3. This means that A4's Bee-lugging speed had to be >= Naruto's Shunshin.
4. This would only be feasible if A4's arm speed could be enhanced with vitalizing chakra.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 5, 2020)

Ay used the Body Flicker against Sasuke at least three times: 1) when he surged towards Sasuke with his Elbow, 2) when he dodged Amaterasu (IIRC he dodged it once), and 3) when he got behind Sasuke's Susano'o really fast. The rest of the time Ay attacked at his normal speed, though I'll point out that the mechanics of Ay's lightning armor mean his physical attacks would be exponentially faster in V2 as he's stimulating his nervous system more in that state.

As for the KCM Naruto situation, where exactly did Ay intercept Naruto's Body Flicker in that image? Ay did lug Bee at Naruto but Naruto wasn't moving or at least visibly flickering at the time - the dude had just stopped out of concern for Bee.


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## Mad Scientist (Oct 5, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Ay used the Body Flicker against Sasuke at least three times: *1) when he surged towards Sasuke with his Elbow*, 2) when he dodged Amaterasu (IIRC he dodged it once), and 3) when he got behind Sasuke's Susano'o really fast. The rest of the time Ay attacked at his normal speed, though I'll point out that the mechanics of Ay's lightning armor mean his physical attacks would be exponentially faster in V2 as he's stimulating his nervous system more in that state.
> 
> As for the KCM Naruto situation, where exactly did Ay intercept Naruto's Body Flicker in that image? Ay did lug Bee at Naruto but Naruto wasn't moving or at least visibly flickering at the time - the dude had just stopped out of concern for Bee.


@trocollo disagrees with #1 though.

*RE ex1:* A4 punched KCM Naruto -- that is the interception, but he jumped to his level before they could crash.

*RE ex2:* If Naruto stopped then it was because Bee got in front of him before he could pass that point, so A4 was still fast enough to intercept his flicker.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 5, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> @trocollo disagrees with #1 though.
> 
> *RE ex1:* A4 punched KCM Naruto -- that is the interception, but he jumped to his level before they could crash.
> 
> *RE ex2:* If Naruto stopped then it was because Bee got in front of him before he could pass that point, so A4 was still fast enough to intercept his flicker.



What exactly does @trocollo disagree with? Ay used the Body Flicker there to intercept KCM Naruto. The punch itself was at ''normal'' speed. As for your second point, it's not ''if'' Naruto stopped because Naruto did stop. He's literally stationary and watching Bee tussle with Ay.


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## trocollo (Oct 5, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> @trocollo disagrees with #1 though.
> 
> *RE ex1:* A4 punched KCM Naruto -- that is the interception, but he jumped to his level before they could crash.
> 
> *RE ex2:* If Naruto stopped then it was because Bee got in front of him before he could pass that point, so A4 was still fast enough to intercept his flicker.


Ok I'll repeat my point:


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Ay used the Body Flicker against Sasuke at least three times: 1) when he surged towards Sasuke with his Elbow, 2) when he dodged Amaterasu (IIRC he dodged it once), and 3) when he got behind Sasuke's Susano'o really fast. The rest of the time Ay attacked at his normal speed, though I'll point out that the mechanics of Ay's lightning armor mean his physical attacks would be exponentially faster in V2 as he's stimulating his nervous system more in that state.


The argument here was specifically for the elbow-chidori exange, while MadScientist said that I think A used shunshin till the point of contact what I actually said is this:


trocollo said:


> A does a physical attack there, who's slower than shunshin, and Sasuke doesn't use shunshin with chidori but the regular enhanced speed, so what works is that A enhaced his speed in the same way Sasuke did with the chidori, not with shunshin, or it's also possible that he used shunshin to get there and proceded with the attack


I think A just enhanced his speed otherwise he'd be faster than Sasuke if he used shunshin and Sasuke just enhanced speed, the case of A using sunshin is still accpetable tho, as it makes sense as long as A's shunshin ended when the elbow attack started


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## Mad Scientist (Oct 5, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> What exactly does @trocollo disagree with? Ay used the Body Flicker there to intercept KCM Naruto. The punch itself was at ''normal'' speed.


@trocollo believes that A4 did not use Shunshin during his entire elbow charge against Sasuke.

If the punch was only a normal speed, then Naruto would have crashed into A4 as Teleportation Jutsu > normal punching speed.



> As for your second point, it's not ''if'' Naruto stopped because Naruto did stop. He's literally stationary and watching Bee tussle with Ay.




Panels 10 and 12 show that KCM Naruto had used Shunshin and was moving. Panels 10 and 11 show that A4 reacted to Naruto's Shunshin by swinging Bee, so even if Naruto tried to stop in consideration of Bee, A4 was still fast enough to intercept that flicker by swinging an 87 kg man.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 5, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> @trocollo believes that A4 did not use Shunshin during his entire elbow charge against Sasuke.
> 
> If the punch was only a normal speed, *then Naruto would have crashed into A4 as Teleportation Jutsu > normal punching speed*



Ay had already used his Body Flicker to catch up to or slightly exceed Naruto's, so he doesn't have to surpass said speed with a punch.



Mad Scientist said:


> Panels 10 and 12 show that KCM Naruto had used Shunshin and was moving. Panels 10 and 11 show that A4 reacted to Naruto's Shunshin by swinging Bee, so even if Naruto tried to stop in consideration of Bee, A4 was still fast enough to intercept that flicker by swinging an 87 kg man.



You're right Naruto was moving but how fast was he moving?


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## Mad Scientist (Oct 5, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Ay had already used his Body Flicker to catch up to or slightly exceed Naruto's, so he doesn't have to surpass said speed with a punch.


A4 might have stopped, but _Naruto_ was still juiced up on Shunshin and was moving at such a speed that it's not really realistic for him to have been able to stop mid-air in that short time period.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> You're right Naruto was moving but how fast was he moving?


At least as fast as his previous Shunshin where he also got a "chance", or his second one against A4.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 5, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> A4 might have stopped, but _Naruto_ was still juiced up on Shunshin and was moving at such a speed that it's not really realistic for him to have been able to stop mid-air in that short time period



Who said anything about Naruto stopping in mid-air? All Ay has to do is A) close in on Naruto and B) throw a punch.

If Ay matches or surpasses Naruto's speed, he can do the latter without much difficulty.



Mad Scientist said:


> At least as fast as his previous Shunshin where he also got a "chance", or his second one against A4.



Proof?


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