# [Theory] The scroll might be based on the Amatsutatara scrolls



## Jeαnne (Aug 10, 2012)

i dont know if anybody already posted this around here, but well i will post what i found...its long 

*Amatsutatara*​​


> Highest level of spiritual knowledge
> 
> There are two main collections of myths in Japan, Kojiki (The Record of Ancient Matters) and Nihon shoki (or Nihongi, Chronicles of Japan) which were compiled in 712 A.D. and 720 A.D. respectively. Kojiki was compiled by the imperial family, and consequently consists of myths, legends, songs, anecdotes, folk etymologies, and so forth centered around the imperial family and other leading families of Japan at that time. It has three books ordered in a chronological fashion: Book One deals with "The Age of the Gods"; Book Two, the reigns of the legendary first fifteen sovereigns (from Emperor Jimmu to Emperor Ojin); and Book Three, the imperial reigns from Emperor Nintoku to Emperor Suiko (628 A.D.), the sixteenth to the thirty-third emperors.
> 
> ...



See that, as much knowledge as can be contained in the ancient scrolls, it still requires the tradition of Kuden, where a Master passes the secrets to a student. Keep this in mind.

Now, considering the relation between Shinto and the Ninpo, and how the Amatsutatara scrolls are important, check this:



> *Amatsutatara Hibumi*
> 
> According to folklore, Takamatsu Toshitsugu wrote about the Amatsutatara Hibumi (secret scrolls) in his Amatsutatara Budo Keizu Hikan scroll. *The Amatsutatara scrolls contain information about all material arts, spiritualism and humanism.*
> 
> ...






> Amatsutatara The Secret Scrolls
> 
> *The origin of the spiritual power and understanding of Gods law is from the Amatsutatara secret scrolls* and the Amatsutatara Ginkoroku secret scrolls which had been veiled in darkness through history. *For example Kuji and Juji are connected to Shugendos? training methods. The root is particular and is basic of Amatsutatara scrolls. What are Kuki Amatsutatara scrolls? What is Kukishin Ryu? It is from the Shinto tradition who’s origin in Kuki scrolls is one of the old and historical and traditional scrolls in antiquity before the 6th century. Kuki family is the head of Kumano Shugendo.* It was also very well known from a leader of Kiki Navy, the strongest Japanese naval power. *Amatsutatara is in the highest position, the oldest and the best bible about the Martial arts and religion.*
> 
> ...



cont.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 10, 2012)

Now, we know that Naruto is a manga about ninjas, ie: Ninpo. We know about all shinto references used by Kishi, specially when its about Uchihas, to the point where Uchihas have a shinto temple inside of the manga. 

And now, we have a scroll that has lead suigetsu to believe that can allow them to rule the world. If we take into account the kind of information that the amatsutatara scrolls are supposed to have, we can kind of understand why suigetsu would think this. 

After all, it would make complete sense if Kishi inserted something based on Amatsutatara in Sasuke's storyline.

Now, what kind of information the Amatsutatara is supposed to have?

By this text, we can get:

- the philosophies of the martial arts;
- include all special techniques;
- stuff about heaven and earth;
- the secrets of Shugendo and Mikkyo;

if you still dont know what Shugendo is:



> Shugendō (修験道?) is a highly syncretic Buddhic religion or sect and mystical-spiritual tradition which originated in pre-Feudal Japan, in which *enlightenment is equated with attaining oneness with the kami *(神?). *This perception of experiential "awakening" is obtained through the understanding of the relationship between humanity and nature, centered on an ascetic, mountain-dwelling practice. The focus or goal of Shugendō is the development of spiritual experience and power.* Having backgrounds in mountain worship, *Shugendō incorporated beliefs or philosophies from Old Shinto as well as folk animism*, and further developed as Taoism and esoteric Buddhism arrived in Japan. The 7th century ascetic and mystic En no Gyōja is often considered as having first organized Shugendō as a doctrine. *Shugendō literally means "the path of training and testing"[citation needed] or "the way to spiritual power through discipline.*"[1]



Shugendo is the closest thing to *Sage Mode*.

_"The teaching of the Amatsutatara is of the highest level of Martial Arts and Spiritual training. It contains the secret to be a Martial artist."_

think of Sasuke's questions. He has made questions regarding the ninja philosophy, and seemed to somehow believe that whatever the scroll gives access to, has the answer for his questions. The same scroll that has made suigetsu believe that they can rule the world, how could this be associated?

*"When one can decode the amatsutatara and organize it one can manage universal power with freedom."*

It fits perfectly what Suigetsu told Sasuke about believing that he could do it with some time, since he was Orochimaru's "highest disciple".

"It is divided up three types as the following; History, secret miracle religion (spiritual teaching) and Martial Arts. They say that if you use the secrets written in them,* the universal Mysterious power will respond to five natural main elements (Chi, Sui, Ka, Fu, Ku)*."

See how all this information could relate to what regards Rikudou and his secrets. The scroll would have the access to the ninja and samurai story and their origin, the spiritual teaching that relates to Shinto(and perhaps buddhism depending on what kishi is aiming here), probably giving us a better perspective about why we have shinto shrines in Naruto and why the MS powers have shinto gods names(and explanation about rinnegan). It could be all the answers to the questions that we have been making, and finally the secrets about the martial arts, how the ninjutsu was created? _"the universal mysterious power will respond to five natural main elements"_, doesnt it ring a bell?. And the fact that the Amatsutatara scroll also includes information about Shugendo, makes it come full circle, because it would be about Sage Mode, that if we consider all the hints, totally has something to do with Rikudou.


Stop to think about Kabuto's and Orochimaru's goals. Both of them are after Sasuke.



"what do you want in return?"
"Uchiha Sasuke."
"what are you plotting?"
"...nothing at all...*i am simply interested in discovering the truth behind ninjutsus.*And for that, I need Sasuke-kun, that's all. I want a live, young Uchiha."



"the only thing that i am interested, is that young body of yours...sasuke-kun."

Why after having such scroll in hands, Orochimaru still goes after Sasuke's body? Someway, whatever might be there, requires an Uchiha body.


*tl;dr*

*Taking into account the shinto references used by Kishi, it would make so much sense if that scroll was based in the Amatsutatara scroll. The history behind the ninja and the samurai, the origin of ninjutsu. What are the shinto temples in Naruto and how they relate to ninjas. What is sage mode and how it relates to the origin of modern ninjutsu and the shinto. And finally, the power to rule the world: The amatsutatara scroll, after decoded, can allow one to manage universal power with freedom. "The universal mysterious power will respond to five natural main elements.", doesnt it feel like the answer that Kabuto was after?* 

edit: also, take into account what was orochimaru's goal from the start, he wanted to learn all jutsus, but now we know that he was not after the sharingan to copy. What would have information on "all jutsus" in the first place?

edit 2: also, if you have time, read about .

i dont have enough knowledge about this and i am tired, but its interesting and might be as important as shugendo here.

Just food for thought. 

btw, add in everything that we have already discussed over and over again about tengus(origin of the ninja, practitioners of shugendo), and this image finally makes complete sense:

​

edit: to clarify some stuff behind this theory, read this post:


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## BlinkST (Aug 10, 2012)

Jeanne 

This is brilliant


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## KAKASHI10 (Aug 10, 2012)

I want to give you a proper reply, so I will read all of this in another time and will reply to you. OK 

It seem a good thread by the way.


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## Maunten (Aug 10, 2012)

Nice!!

I thought the scroll might be the scroll that hashirama sealed away, which had kinjutsu in it, but I don't think that is cannon so... Your won is more likely.

Also if it is the highest level of teaching, could mean rennigan awakening, though in don't think suig would have the reaction he did of it was the rinnegan, it may very well be some ancient scroll of legendary knowledge as you say. 5 star.

I could be revealed soon .


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## Raiden (Aug 10, 2012)

Sounds good. I actually like the role of senjutsu in this theory. Sasuke's last few fights, especially against Bee and the Raikage, I think make learning the art necessary to be comfortably competitive with other top tier ninja. I'm pretty sure that's what Orochimaru did to punch the Four Tails and it made somewhat of a difference.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 10, 2012)

BlinkST said:


> Jeanne
> 
> This is brilliant



i ended up finding this because of your other thread 


KAKASHI10 said:


> I want to give you a proper reply, so I will read all of this in another time and will reply to you. OK
> 
> It seem a good thread by the way.



xD, i hope that you will like.


Maunten said:


> Nice!!
> 
> I thought the scroll might be the scroll that hashirama sealed away, which had kinjutsu in it, but I don't think that is cannon so... Your won is more likely.
> 
> ...



hehe , lets see how it will go.



Raiden said:


> Sounds good. I actually like the role of senjutsu in this theory. Sasuke's last few fights, especially against Bee and the Raikage, I think make learning the art necessary to be comfortably competitive with other top tier ninja. I'm pretty sure that's what Orochimaru did to punch the Four Tails and it made somewhat of a difference.



its the answer behind everything, and that cover is a hint, sasuke over a hawk looking like a tengu, holding a scroll has to mean something, and when we take what amatsutatara is about into account, everything comes full cycle. If the scroll has the secrets of martial arts, including the ninpo, it has to talk about the origin of the ninja, the tengu. The tengu practiced shugendo, the closest thing to sage mode, and Shinto is heavily based on animism. When we stop to think, it all makes sense.


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## mrweekend (Aug 10, 2012)

damn, I can't lie....Jeanne's theory after reading it and doing a bit of research myself, is pretty much DEAD on.  I couldn't even find find any "plotholes" like with other theories 

I've been wondering about that color page with Sasuke and Naruto, and it makes sense now....shooot, if this doesnt end up being the case with what Sasuke is looking for as well as what details mystery scroll entails  ....


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## Revolution (Aug 10, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> its the answer behind everything, and that cover is a hint, sasuke over a hawk looking like a tengu, holding a scroll has to mean something, and when we take what amatsutatara is about into account, everything comes full cycle. If the scroll has the secrets of martial arts, including the ninpo, it has to talk about the origin of the ninja, the tengu. The tengu practiced shugendo, the closest thing to sage mode, and Shinto is heavily based on animism. When we stop to think, it all makes sense.



Yes.  That is one mystery solved.  The scroll in Sasuke's hand is the scroll on the cover.  Now we just need to find out who Sasuke will see who tells him why his brother gave up his family and a good life and the sanity of his brother for Konoha, the oppressive country.  Perhaps Itachi believed it would ease restrictions?  Then how will Sasuke's plans for Konoha change?  He will still want to destroy or at least change/expose Konoha for the corruption that it is to make the world a better place.  I believe Sasuke will be a hero at the end of the series, but a hero against Naruto.

Looking at it this way realy shows Sasuke is a lot more spiritual that he ever showed before.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 11, 2012)

mrweekend said:


> damn, I can't lie....Jeanne's theory after reading it and doing a bit of research myself, is pretty much DEAD on.  I couldn't even find find any "plotholes" like with other theories
> 
> I've been wondering about that color page with Sasuke and Naruto, and it makes sense now....shooot, if this doesnt end up being the case with what Sasuke is looking for as well as what details mystery scroll entails  ....


dont cry 


lets see what kishi will do , i would be surprised if it has nothing to do with this, considering how kishi is.


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## NW (Aug 11, 2012)

Wow. This is really great. This actually seems to be the most logical explanation. Kudos to you for your research and thinking.


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## machiavelli2009 (Aug 11, 2012)

the level of research here is 
kudos mehn
i seriously hope kishi decides to do something like this


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## Last Rose of Summer (Aug 11, 2012)

Wow! This picture has both Yasaka Magatamas and Uzumakis clan symbol. It also has blue and orange rays... The scroll surely contains details on how to do the fusion dance between Sasuke and Naruto... 

Seriously fabulous find Jeanne! Reps all the way.


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## Melodie (Aug 11, 2012)

We need to go deeper.

I'm kidding, reps to you, at least I did learn something new. ​


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## Jeαnne (Aug 11, 2012)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Wow! This picture has both Yasaka Magatamas and Uzumakis clan symbol. It also has blue and orange rays... The scroll surely contains details on how to do the fusion dance between Sasuke and Naruto...
> 
> Seriously fabulous find Jeanne! Reps all the way.


magatamas in the center, the same rays that we see around rikudou's eye on the wall...spirals mirrored, Kubikazari which the Magatamas around...its intriguing 

ty xD


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## PureWIN (Aug 11, 2012)

This is a great theory!

Unfortunately, much like the Tengu theory eons ago, Kishi will probably water down everything and provide us with a _very_ simplistic execution. For example, despite all of the symbolism behind Izanami, hardly any of it was discussed in the manga.


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## Last Rose of Summer (Aug 11, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> magatamas in the center, the same rays that we see around rikudou's eye on the wall...spirals mirrored, Kubikazari which the Magatamas around...its intriguing
> 
> ty xD



Now we can almost be sure the naginata Sasuke's hawk is holding is Ame-no-Nuhoko with which Izanagi and Izanami created first land that was Japan.


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## Rain (Aug 11, 2012)

+1 Its a good theory.


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## momma bravo (Aug 11, 2012)

[/thread]
[/KL]
[/narutoforums]

_that_ was one helluva theory.  mad respect


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## Last Rose of Summer (Aug 11, 2012)

Here right down you can even see Rinnegan symbol.  On your pic it's blurried.


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## Shattering (Aug 11, 2012)

Awesome work 

Btw that image is pretty curious, Itachi's mangekyo in the middle, Rinnegan, Elder son eyes...


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## Maunten (Aug 11, 2012)

I had only one issue with it.

Why did sasuke revive oro, when he had the eyes and the body to learn himself.

It might be because orochimarua is yet to pass down the final teaching from himself to sasuke, which might be why they are going where they are going.

I oro does teach sasuke the secrets it does not look like a good end for him, considering the image of sasuke at the end of OPs post.


Also notice the susanoo jewel on sasuke's head.


*Also, this could be what tobi meant by giving the rennigan to nagato, teaching him the secrets of the spirit energy that only an uchiha could learn from the scrolls, possibly via genjutsu.*


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## Jeαnne (Aug 11, 2012)

Maunten said:


> I had only one issue with it.
> 
> Why did sasuke revive oro, when he had the eyes and the body to learn himself.
> 
> ...


have the scroll is not enough, some stuff can only be passed down by the teacher...

so while orochimaru might know how to use but is not able to because he doesnt have an uchiha body, sasuke doesnt know how to use even having what is necessary...they need each other xD


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## limbo Kakashi (Aug 11, 2012)

mad kudos ms jeanne. This is my song.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 11, 2012)

Jeanne, your theories are always awe-inspiring.

But even among them, this one is a doozy.

Good work.


EDIT: From what I gather, Mikkyo may be distantly related to Kishimoto's concept of Ninjutsu. Wikipedia says it's all about mysticism and magic based on the Yin-Yang relationship, and that its teachings are handed down from master to student.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 11, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Jeanne, your theories are always awe-inspiring.
> 
> But even among them, this one is a doozy.
> 
> Good work.


aw man, ty <333, its an honor 




AumaanAnubis said:


> mad kudos ms jeanne. This is my song.



xD, im glad you liked

sometimes i get worried before posting theories imagining if people will think that i am looking too much into it or taking it too far, but when i found this info, i was like "damn i must make a theory about this right now"


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## Blur (Aug 11, 2012)

Sasuke getting Rinnegan confirmed. 
Great thread by the way.


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## AoshiKun (Aug 11, 2012)

Nice find Jeanne, most likely Kishimoto based that scroll on Amatsutatara.
Also I liked the part of " tradition of Kuden, where a Master passes the secrets to a student. Keep this in mind." because Orochimaru was Sasuke's master and he is the one who will lead Sasuke to those secrets.

It fits perfectly.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Aug 11, 2012)

I believe.
Thank you Jeanne!
Love your theories/facts.
My eyes are open


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## Jeαnne (Aug 11, 2012)

AoshiKun said:


> Nice find Jeanne, most likely Kishimoto based that scroll on Amatsutatara.
> Also I liked the part of " tradition of Kuden, where a Master passes the secrets to a student. Keep this in mind." because Orochimaru was Sasuke's master and he is the one who will lead Sasuke to those secrets.
> 
> It fits perfectly.


yeah, the fact that sasuke went as far as reviving orochimaru caught my attention too xD

lol 44 guests...i guess someone linked it somewhere else


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Aug 11, 2012)

Wasn't it confirmed that Orochimaru wanted the sharingan because he wanted to learn more ninjutsu, and sharingan can be used to copy them?


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## Jeαnne (Aug 11, 2012)

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> Wasn't it confirmed that Orochimaru wanted the sharingan because he wanted to learn more ninjutsu, and sharingan can be used to copy them?


thats what he said, right? but it doesnt mean that its the truth. After all, who would have imagined how much orochimaru knew and what he was aiming? the man knows about ryuchidou, rinnegan, do you really think that he went throught all this problem with itachi and sasuke to get a sharingan for the sole fact that it can copy stuff? something that a normal sharingan can do? orochimaru goes way beyond our imagination in terms of character.



Nikushimi said:


> EDIT: From what I gather, Mikkyo may be distantly related to Kishimoto's concept of Ninjutsu. Wikipedia says it's all about mysticism and magic based on the Yin-Yang relationship, and that its teachings are handed down from master to student.



i will read it better later too xD


you know, people always judged kishi saying that his ninjas had nothing to do with ninjas at all, that it didnt feel like a manga about ninjas, etc...but after reading this stuff, i get the feeling that he used the concept of ninja from shinto, so he included all the magic stuff and went all out...

i think i have a new found respect for him now, it does take away some credit regarding his creation, but he has a base, he didnt get interesting figures and twisted for his story(he didnt go stephanie meyer on us, making vampires sparkle under the sun ).


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## BlinkST (Aug 11, 2012)

He apparently wants the Uchiha body and the Sharingan itself, which would suggest Sage training.


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## iSmile (Aug 11, 2012)

Nice research.. well done +rep.


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## AlphaReaver (Aug 11, 2012)

Jeanne I Fully Agree. You Have A Knack For Making These Connections. I Like People Like You. We Need More People Like You In This World & Forum. I Would Rep You If I Could.


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## Ranma Saotome (Aug 11, 2012)

Well damn. Amazing theory.


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## Guiness (Aug 11, 2012)

wow, what a long yet illuminating read. 

props jeanne. i wouldn't expect anything less from a fellow sasuke fan.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 11, 2012)

ty for the feedback guys <3


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## thinkingaboutlife (Aug 11, 2012)

Damn nice avatar and theory. If this happens I'll jizz.


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## Bart (Aug 11, 2012)

Oooooo :3

Really interesting thread here, and yeah Kishimoto tends to include this stuff in relation to the Uchiha.

A little nod to the _Scroll of Seals_ I think, but brilliant thread to be honest ~

One of the most interesting parts, which I guess I'd appreciate a bit more lol would be the whole _"Amatsu" means Heaven or Nature"_; specifically the word _"heaven"_; I might take that little bit to the thread I should have created last year lmfao; but really good stuff :WOW


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## Jeαnne (Aug 11, 2012)

Bart said:


> Oooooo :3
> 
> Really interesting thread here, and yeah Kishimoto tends to include this stuff in relation to the Uchiha.
> 
> ...


i would not be surprised if there are other "amatsutatara scrolls" around, all left by rikudou, and orochimaru happened to put his hands on this one xD


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## Bart (Aug 11, 2012)

Not a bad idea at all ^^

But seems a bit foolish for _Rikudou_ to do that, especially as you said with the whole the around Orochimaru getting his hands on them; I'd like to think maybe his sons passed them into the respected clans of the Shinobi World (as there were many of them).


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## MS81 (Aug 11, 2012)

I always wonder if a uchiha sage training would be different?!?!


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## Laz'rus (Aug 11, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




100000% agree.

Washed a random theory of mine along the gutter


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## Jeαnne (Aug 11, 2012)

Bart said:


> Not a bad idea at all ^^
> 
> But seems a bit foolish for _Rikudou_ to do that, especially as you said with the whole the around Orochimaru getting his hands on them; I'd like to think maybe his sons passed them into the respected clans of the Shinobi World (as there were many of them).


yeah, actually the tradition of the amatsutatara is exacly this, a recording of everything, history, techniques and martial arts philosophy...

that scroll could be the amatsutatara of the elder brother, and that other one that we see with hashirama, could be the younger brother's, considering that the uzumakis most likely had one too, thats probably 3

just a guess though


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## Luftwaffles (Aug 11, 2012)

Great theory +repped 
This had better not be like that time you posted that Itachi had Tengu Mode, would go blind, activate TM and solo Madara. I was excited to see that shit


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## Jeαnne (Aug 11, 2012)

☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> Great theory +repped
> This had better not be like that time you posted that Itachi had Tengu Mode, would go blind, activate TM and solo Madara. I was excited to see that shit


it wasnt me that made that theory, it was yachiru 


talking of yachiru, i havent seen her since itachi vanished


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## Peterhokage (Aug 11, 2012)

Hey, saw this on reddit had to make an account to tell you how awesome a theory it is. So will Sasuke and Naruto be equals?


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## Jeαnne (Aug 11, 2012)

Peterhokage said:


> Hey, saw this on reddit had to make an account to tell you how awesome a theory it is. So will Sasuke and Naruto be equals?


its on reddit :0? can you give me the link to the post?



well, about sasuke and naruto, i would say that they will be proportional, if the scroll is really supposed to be for sasuke. Each will have their own take on what rikudou was about, sasuke would focus on the aspects related to the eye and the control of the elements/secret of ninjutsu, and naruto will focus on the whole being a jinchuuriki and have a body that can bear it.

the true difference between them, will be the fact that naruto has inherited rikudou's will. I think that they will have to be equals in terms of power exacly to make the difference in their way of thinking more bold, making obvious that what will put naruto in a different position compared to sasuke, is not any kind of power gap, but his will.


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## Peterhokage (Aug 11, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> its on reddit :0? can you give me the link to the post?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here you go  

I like the idea of Naruto and Sasuke being the Yin and Yang of each other, Sasuke is the eyes and chakra control, Naruto is the Body and Stamina. The thing I want to happen is them to team up for pure ownage.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 11, 2012)

Peterhokage said:


> Here you go
> 
> I like the idea of Naruto and Sasuke being the Yin and Yang of each other, Sasuke is the eyes and chakra control, Naruto is the Body and Stamina. The thing I want to happen is them to team up for pure ownage.


ty xD

yeaaah, i agree, i cant wait, they must team up all the way...it would make it come full cycle, after all, in the zabuza arc, it was the moment when they became a true team, they trained together and all, in the end they should once again understand each other and kick some ass together


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## Peterhokage (Aug 11, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> ty xD
> 
> yeaaah, i agree, i cant wait, they must team up all the way...it would make it come full cycle, after all, in the zabuza arc, it was the moment when they became a true team, they trained together and all, in the end they should once again understand each other and kick some ass together


The Zabuza arc is exactly what I was referring to! They seemed to work so well together, makes me have high hopes for what a fully powered team could do.


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## Luftwaffles (Aug 11, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> it wasnt me that made that theory, it was yachiru
> 
> 
> talking of yachiru, i havent seen her since itachi vanished


Ah yes, I always confuse you two for some reason... 
Yes, I haven't seen her either


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## G Felon (Aug 11, 2012)

No holes, makes sense ,and great stuff. Looks like sasukes story is about to get a lot more interesting.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 11, 2012)

Peterhokage said:


> The Zabuza arc is exactly what I was referring to! They seemed to work so well together, makes me have high hopes for what a fully powered team could do.


yes xD


your sig is too big, use this:



by the way, i love sonic


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## Phemt (Aug 11, 2012)

I never made the connection between the 2 scrolls, and they were infront of me the whole time.

So then is it the sons of Rikudou they're meeting? Because Oro & Sasuke called them fellows/bastards.

I mainly want to know what power that scroll holds. Is it the power and secrets of the universe?


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## Jeαnne (Aug 11, 2012)

Sutol said:


> I never made the connection between the 2 scrolls, and they were infront of me the whole time.
> 
> So then is it the sons of Rikudou they're meeting? Because Oro & Sasuke called them fellows/bastards.
> 
> I mainly want to know what power that scroll holds. Is it the power and secrets of the universe?


i say that it would contain at least some recording about the history of the ninja and its origin, what might give us a better insight into why kishi introduced shinto temples in naruto, as well as some aspects of what it means to be a ninja, basically, their philosophy, and a recording regarding the techniques created up to a certain point.

And by decoding it you would be able to finally discover the secret behind ninjutsu.

"When one can decode the amatsutatara and organize it one* can manage universal power with freedom.*"

"It is divided up three types as the following; History, secret miracle religion (spiritual teaching) and Martial Arts. They say that if you use the secrets written in them, *the universal Mysterious power will respond to five natural main elements (Chi, Sui, Ka, Fu, Ku)."
*

now like we speculated, there is a change that there are more than one amatsutatara. Maybe one related to the elder and other related to the younger...would not be surprised if hashirama and madara, each one, put their hands in them, they seem to be too far ahead...


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## R00t_Decision (Aug 12, 2012)

​


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## Edo Madara (Aug 12, 2012)

So Sasuke will use hawk sage mode ?


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## AoshiKun (Aug 12, 2012)

Edo Madara said:


> So Sasuke will use hawk sage mode ?


At this point it could be anything.

Rikudou Sennin was most likely a Sage himself however he doesn't seems to be a Toad or Snake/Dragon type. There is the third secret place and if it isn't related to Tsunade then it certainly will be related to him.

As Jeane amazing thread points the scroll has both power and knowledge and that power could be anything indeed.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 12, 2012)

there must be a hawk/tengu mode somewhere, considering all the hints. It will either be specifically related to Uchihas, or further explain who Rikudou himself was.

I think that its more about uchihas because they are accursed, the yamabushi tengu is the symbol of fallen monks or warriors, whose arrogance and pretentiousness angered the tengu, perhaps the elder brother was cursed. 

Either way, it could mean that the elder brother had something similar to a sage mode too, after all he is heir of a sage. People assume that only the younger brother had it, but we cant mistake the forest for the trees. We cant take naruto's sage mode as reference and judge that they all work the same way, kabuto's sage mode displayed different powers compared to naruto's, perhaps there is a sage mode that is about rikudou's eye powers, and belonged to the elder brother, arent hawks the most fitting creatures to represent this?

and then, kishi introduces three sage mode places, but holds shikkotsurin, why? Its like he wants to mislead us. He wants us to guess that its about Slugs, only to explain another trace of raciocin involving rikudou's heirs. 

- One for Yin manipulation(create form out of nothing) and eyes(uchiha and possibly something about juugo's powers, pay attention to what he can do, he can make his body transform completly and create flesh/change form...it needs an origin and a reason why it was called sennin transformation. Ever wondered why nagato's peins hairs became orange? We have been proven over and over again that hair color in naruto means something. People assume that Juugo's stuff is irrelevant when it could be the biggest hint about the existence of a Yin sage mode, the guy can talk with animals, come on);

- One for physical powers and stamina.(Uzumakis, Namikazes?);

- One for Yang manipulation(breath life into things) and chakra power(Senju powers, pay attention to what mokuton is...and what Kabuto was able to do with the cave, he made the cave become something alive, it was yang manipulation. It doesnt have anything to do with the frog sage mode powers, and if there is a sage mode with yang manipulation, what about yin?);


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## Wave Wind (Aug 14, 2012)

Reminds me of the scroll Mizuki wanted way way back when in chapter number uno.  Part of a larger collection of knowledge, perhaps? This is amazing. +reps


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## machiavelli2009 (Aug 14, 2012)

i need to pick at your brain, lots of info in it OP
kudos
kishi should just follow what your saying about this. 
because i seriously do not want a perfect susanoo for sasuke, it would be waaay to  and obvious and very boring
some hawk sage mode would be soo much better. 

aslo his susanoo has a beak already might just be right.


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## Kusa (Aug 14, 2012)

Awesome thread  Very interesting to read.


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## KAKASHI10 (Aug 14, 2012)

This is so beutiful.  

I remember when the library had several threads like this, WTF HAPPEN to the library


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## Summers (Aug 15, 2012)

I disagree with Sasuke getting SM. He can have it, as long as it not the Humid bone forest. Everything else is great. You live in a shrine or something.


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## Killacale85 (Aug 17, 2012)

Great theory!


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## Jak N Blak (Aug 17, 2012)

Don't have the time of the day to read this. Just gonna wait for it to be revealed in the manga or some shit.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 17, 2012)

Jak N Blak said:


> Don't have the time of the day to read this. Just gonna wait for it to be revealed in the manga or some shit.


what is the point of coming to a theory thread to say that you dont have time to read it


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## Shaz (Aug 18, 2012)

Did you have this as a vision in a dream?


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## Bart (Aug 20, 2012)

Bumped for importance :3


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## Seraphiel (Aug 20, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> what is the point of coming to a theory thread to say that you dont have time to read it



If it's not about naruto doing 720 degrees noscope headshots he won't read it.

On topic

Wonderful thread woman, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and while I doubt Kishi will go so deep with it still a good effort on your part.

Jeanne es #1 huehuehuehuehue


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## Jeαnne (Aug 20, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> If it's not about naruto doing 720 degrees noscope headshots he won't read it.
> 
> On topic
> 
> ...





well kishi never goes deep enough, but he can base stuff 

ty euuheuheuheuh xD


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## Blaze (Aug 20, 2012)

Great theory Jeanne. Seems very likely that he would get sage mode to compliment his ability. It would be great as well since I do want to see Naruto and Sasuke fight have some good fast paced taijutsu action.

But I'm more interested in information about truth behind 'ninjutsu' and the obsession over Sasuke's body. It seems we are going to get all our answers soon once Tobi's guess who game is over.


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## Ichiurto (Aug 20, 2012)

And thus, the plot flows stronger with Sasuke than it does Naruto.

Can there be any argument now which is the main-character?


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## lonesome devil (Sep 27, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> Now, we know that Naruto is a manga about ninjas, ie: Ninpo. We know about all shinto references used by Kishi, specially when its about Uchihas, to the point where Uchihas have a shinto temple inside of the manga.
> 
> And now, we have a scroll that has lead suigetsu to believe that can allow them to rule the world. If we take into account the kind of information that the amatsutatara scrolls are supposed to have, we can kind of understand why suigetsu would think this.
> 
> ...



good love a man who think out the box


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## lonesome devil (Sep 27, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> there must be a hawk/tengu mode somewhere, considering all the hints. It will either be specifically related to Uchihas, or further explain who Rikudou himself was.
> 
> I think that its more about uchihas because they are accursed, the yamabushi tengu is the symbol of fallen monks or warriors, whose arrogance and pretentiousness angered the tengu, perhaps the elder brother was cursed.
> 
> ...


the sharingan itself is a symbol of the elder bothers cruse he was not born with it it was a gift from a tengu who carry a fan not only sharingan but the 9 tails as well its two kinds of tengu the bird type and the human type it was the human type who gave the elder bother the sharingan copy wheel eye and later gave him ms and 9 tails where he made a contract that his offsprings would have to take each others eyes to gain power and that tengu look like itachi sansoon


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## Samehada (Sep 27, 2012)

Any theory related to Japanese myths are almost always close to the answer 

+1


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## Unknown (Nov 25, 2012)

Has anyone tought that Tengu SM could simply be that Susanoo uses Sage chakra? And that the use of Susanoo chakra in general is the same as being using the SM?

Madara does seem to be using his Susanoo chakra for everything except monkuton and Sasuke started to use Susanoo chakra also in genjutsus aswell.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Nov 25, 2012)

Unknown said:


> Has anyone tought that Tengu SM could simply be that Susanoo uses Sage chakra? And that the use of Susanoo chakra in general is the same as being using the SM?
> 
> Madara does seem to be using his Susanoo chakra for everything except monkuton and Sasuke started to use Susanoo chakra also in genjutsus aswell.



This. I to start to think that Sharingan acts as Orochimaru's CS and draws on natural energy and balance that energy with spiritual energy creating Yin Sage chakra the oposite of Yang Sage chakra used by people like Naruto.
Maybe the Sharingan in its higher stages alows for a higher spiritual energy cultivation and therefor more sage chakra generation ?


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## Scarlet Ammo (Nov 25, 2012)

It's really scary how accurate this theory is. :I


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## Jeαnne (Jan 1, 2013)

Unknown said:


> Has anyone tought that Tengu SM could simply be that Susanoo uses Sage chakra? And that the use of Susanoo chakra in general is the same as being using the SM?
> 
> Madara does seem to be using his Susanoo chakra for everything except monkuton and Sasuke started to use Susanoo chakra also in genjutsus aswell.





†_Camorra_† said:


> This. I to start to think that Sharingan acts as Orochimaru's CS and draws on natural energy and balance that energy with spiritual energy creating Yin Sage chakra the oposite of Yang Sage chakra used by people like Naruto.
> Maybe the Sharingan in its higher stages alows for a higher spiritual energy cultivation and therefor more sage chakra generation ?



YES.

I have thought of this too. I believe that what we have seen from Sasuke's CS and Susanoo is linked somehow. But in my mind, both options are nothing but "diluted signs" of something greater, that was responsible for at least Rikudou's capacity of yin manipulation. 

The susanoo would be a display of the tengu sage mode, explaining why it looks like this. The Uchiha powers got diluted, so susanoo wouldnt be reaching the perfect form of what Rikudou or the Elder brother was able to use. Still, see how EMS has advanced Susanoo, its like taking steps towards the true thing.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Jan 1, 2013)

I wanted t talk about Oro and kabuto's goal of attaining sasuke's body... not his eyes... as well as the connection between senjutsu and the power of juubi passed down to the uchiha and senju...

Sasuke is an uchiha... and as madara implied before that is also written on the sage's tablet... "how did you know about the secret of my body" implying that uchiha's bodies hold secrets, not just their eyes...


ANd Oro's plan was originally to gain a body that could handle the ability of Juugo's clan to absorb the force of nature... But he never found one, but now he for some reason wants sasuke's more then anything...



Oro wants to gain the power of the sage... learning everything about nature itself...
For this he needs sasuke's body... A body that has a secret that not only allows them to add Senju DNA to become complete... But apparently the ability to take in the force of nature as well...

IMO... Oro wants an Uchiha because their body works as a good base to gaining the pure force of nature itself...
They and the senju/Uzumaki are descended from the sage... The Man who became the Juubi's Jink... (A being of pure nature energy) and thus gained the juubi's power... Becoming a sage that can use the power of the planet itself...

So the uchiha, senju/uzumaki all have the power of the juubi in them (SG/RG and powerful body, vitality) passed down from the sage... And because the power of the juubi was passed to them... A power of pure nature energy...
They are capable of using senjutsu, taking on the force of nature...

The uchiha use YIN nature chakra (a chakra created from only imagination and spiritual energy)... Allowing them increased perception... Just as dragon senjutsu does... Gained form the sage, from the juubi...
The Senju use YANG nature chakra (a chakra made of Vitality and physical energy)... Allowing them very powerful bodies... the power activates their bodies making them very strong, fast, durable ,ect...
Gained form the sage, from the juubi...

Coincidentally... Dragon Senjutsu uses nature energy to increase the perception of the user...
And Frog senjutsu uses a nature energy to activate the body... increasing the  strength, speed, durability, ect... of the user...

There are two clans of the sage... Each gained a different power... One that increases the power of perception and the other increasing the power of the body...
There are two form's of Senjutsu as well... one that increases the perception of the user and the other increases the power of the body...

Gaining the power of the sage seems to be gained to different ways...

1. Madara/obito are trying to gain the power of the sage by putting his pieces back together... Uniting the senju and uchiha back together to attain his power... The RG...

2. Orochimaru/kabuto are trying to gain the power of the sage through senjutsu and an uchiha body that can use the force of nature... I believe Oro is trying to unite the senjutsu's of the world to gain the sage's powers...
Or...
Oro is going to use the power of the Uchiha, half the sage's power... and instead of using hashirama's power... Use senjutsu to fill the gap and give the power needed to recreate the sage's power...

CONCLUSION: If the power of the sage that was passed on to his descendants came from nature energy enhanced chakra... A.K.A. senjutsu...
Then one can use senjutsu to also gain the power of the sage, not just use his descendants power to recreate it...


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## PikaCheeka (Jan 1, 2013)

Jeanne, did you necro your own thread? 




Jeαnne said:


> YES.
> 
> I have thought of this too. I believe that what we have seen from Sasuke's CS and Susanoo is linked somehow. But in my mind, both options are nothing but "diluted signs" of something greater, that was responsible for at least Rikudou's capacity of yin manipulation.
> 
> The susanoo would be a display of the tengu sage mode, explaining why it looks like this. The Uchiha powers got diluted, so susanoo wouldnt be reaching the perfect form of what Rikudou or the Elder brother was able to use. Still, see how EMS has advanced Susanoo, its like taking steps towards the true thing.



I don't think there is a Tengu sage mode, per se. I feel like that almost lessens the connection the Uchiha clan has with them. I mean, is there anything about Minato, Jiraiya, and Naruto that relates them to toads, whatsoever? No. Tsunade to slugs? No. Orochimaru with a snake/dragon sage mode would have made sense, but thing is, he didn't have one. Instead, Kabuto, who was in no related to snakes, had it. 

The Uchiha have a significant amount of Tengu symbolism and imagery surrounding them, to the point of Madara's PS being an exact Tengu. I think Sage Mode is really just a contract, a stand-in for a deeper connection that simply does not exist with most characters. The Uchiha-tengu connection is significantly stronger than any SM connection.


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## BlinkST (Jan 1, 2013)

Unknown said:


> Has anyone tought that Tengu SM could simply be that Susanoo uses Sage chakra? And that the use of Susanoo chakra in general is the same as being using the SM?
> 
> *Madara does seem to be using his Susanoo chakra for everything except monkuton and Sasuke started to use Susanoo chakra also in genjutsus aswell*.


 




  



Jeαnne said:


> YES.
> 
> I have thought of this too. I believe that what we have seen from Sasuke's CS and Susanoo is linked somehow. But in my mind, both options are nothing but "diluted signs" of something greater, that was responsible for at least Rikudou's capacity of yin manipulation.
> 
> The susanoo would be a display of the tengu sage mode, explaining why it looks like this. The Uchiha powers got diluted, so susanoo wouldnt be reaching the perfect form of what Rikudou or the Elder brother was able to use. Still, see how EMS has advanced Susanoo, its like taking steps towards the true thing.


 What if Sasuke used Kabuto's jutsu on perfect Susanoo?


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## Unknown (Jan 1, 2013)

Imo many of the "plotholes" will be solved using nature energy of sage modes. Even as the manga is today It seems that nature energy and sage modes are something unique that only a few people can actually use. Imo that will change in the future, not because everyone and their mother will be using nature energy or sage mode, just because things we didn't knew how they actually worked will be explained with nature energy.

To support the theory of "Susanoo" being a "sage mode" or a being created using sage chakra I have found this:
1.- Madara's normal katon with his own chakra:

2.-Madara's Katons when he is using Susanoo and Susanoo's type chakra (which is supposed to be his chakra, but It clear that is different from his typical/normal/usual chakra):


I think that It can clearly seen that the Katon he used in the Susanoo was hundreds of times bigger and powerful than the one he used with his normal chakra.
There are other examples similar to the one I have just put.
-To summon the meteors he used Susanoo chakra.
-His other seen katon was used with his v1 Susanoo chakra and was already way bigger than the regular one.
-Sasuke's genjutsu with his Susanoo chakra were described to be more powerful than Sasuke's normal or even MS genjutsus.

We have also seen how Madara, Sasuke and Itachi has used their Susanoo chakra without actually creating the Susanoo form as can be seen in BlinkST's great post. 

*Why would they create Susanoo chakra if they don't plan to create Susanoo?*

Well, if Susanoo chakra were to be their own chakra balanced with nature energy (by their sharingans), they could have used it to power up their normal jutsus and stats the way Sage mode does.

*Then, why didn't they have SM Naruto's super strenght?*

Because not all sage modes give the same power ups, Dragon Sage Mode didn't power up the strenght as much as It allowed to power up the senses, speed and regeneration powers. Jyugo's SM allow them to be using SM non stop despite them being in constant movement.

Susanoo type Sage Mode does power up the strenght, speed and durability, but It does it by creating the Susanoo form, which is the one with the super strenght, speed and durability. Just using the Susanoo chakra without the Susanoo form power ups sightly the speed, durability and strenght, but It mostly power ups the secundary jutsus, like Madara's katons. It also allows to be using SM while moving, just like the Jyugo's clan SM.

And another condition of known SM is that if you fail to control it perfectly you "die". In Toad SM if you fail to balance the chakras you first become a toad and then you become a rock. In Jyugo's SM if you fail to have a perfect balance you become mad unable to control yourself.

With the MS you lose your sight as you use the jutsus. The rate in which you become blind may not be related to the number of times you uses the MS jutsus, but the level of control you have of your MS jutsus. That way  It should possible that someone may be using the MS for very long having a perfect control of the MS type SM and that way he may have avoid turning blind.
The EMS seems to be the "easy" way to learn to have a perfect control over the MS type SM.

*What other jutsys I think that are related somehow to nature energy:*

*-Jinchuuriki powers (semi confirmed).*
Bijuus chakra isn't just normal chakra, is a portion of Juubi's chakra which is Sage chakra. That way Jinchuuriki forms are a sage mode on themself.
A V2 Jinchuuriki or RM Naruto are sage modes already.

In Jinchuurikis case they can move because the Bijuu is the partner gathering sage energy for them. And they can fail to control the sage energy and literally die in the process of becoming Jinchuurikis.

*-Jinton.*
How can 3 elements be fused?
Using nature energy to help. That may also be the reason why Jinton users seems to must stay still while perfoming the jutsu, they cannot move and gather nature energy at the same time.

We don't kno much about this misterious super Kekkai Totta, so we don't know about the possible risks the user has to avoid before becoming a master of it.

*-Monkuton.*
What's nature energy?
According to Fukusaku nature energy is the energy of the sunlight, the water, the ground, and the air, that one has to absorb and fuse with his own chakra to create a perfect balance creating Sage mode, while trying not to move.
What do trees do?
They absorb the energy of light and the nutrients of the ground and water to create energy almost without moving. 
Trees are basically the perfect sages, and monkuton users are almost tree-men.

That also explains why the trees of the monkuton are so durable, strong and fast. Monkuton users can absorb the sage chakra of the trees they create and enter SM themself.

There also the third condition for the SM, if one fails to control the nature energy "dies". When Orochimaru performed his experiment with Yamato/Tenzou, only one of dozens of babies survived, isn't that similar to what happens when he uses the CS on someone?

*-Corporal gates.*
The first gate and just the first gate was described to allow the users reach the maximun capacity of their human bodies.
That's also the only gate that doesn't turn your skin red and strange.

The gates after that are supposed to make your chakra flow faster throw your body, but also maximize your capacities that with the first gate were already at the maximun you can be as human.

Imo the next gates make the users enter an extreme and strange SM, and at the end, when someone opens the 8th gate, if that soemone doesn't have perfect balance of their Gate type SM, they die.

Types of SM aside the known/confirmed ones imo:
Mangekyou SM:

Jinchuuriki SM:

Jinton Sage Jutsu:

Monkuton SM:

Gates SM:


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## TatsukageX (Jan 22, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Jeαnne said:


> Now, we know that Naruto is a manga about ninjas, ie: Ninpo. We know about all shinto references used by Kishi, specially when its about Uchihas, to the point where Uchihas have a shinto temple inside of the manga.
> 
> And now, we have a scroll that has lead suigetsu to believe that can allow them to rule the world. If we take into account the kind of information that the amatsutatara scrolls are supposed to have, we can kind of understand why suigetsu would think this.
> 
> ...





\


Awesome, too bad I cannot rep you.

I want to know if you have an sources because me and my friend were researching the relationship between ancient japan and the middle east...this may prove useful.

Thanks


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## SageEnergyMode (Jan 22, 2013)

I simply just love this guy's ability to research and present information. You are a very smart person Jeanne.


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## CyberianGinseng (Jan 22, 2013)

This is an awesome thread. I had read about Shugendō and Mikkyo, but all the rest is news to me. 

I'll have to read the OP in detail.


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## Bontakun (Jan 22, 2013)

So many people say this is a great theory, but I don't see it. It doesn't answer
-why they are going to Konoha
-why TOWKE is there
-why Orochimaru knows exactly that Sasuke wants to see "them" just because Sasuke hands him the scroll, if it does indeed cover such diverse subjects
-also, it's a small-ass scroll to contain so much.

Most likely you've stumbled upon Kishimoto's source of inspiration for ninja themes, much like how Christianity was the source for Evangelion's themes, but it doesn't mean you can use the source of the THEMEs to predict the outcome of the PLOT.

That's my impression.


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## Jeαnne (Jan 22, 2013)

SageEnergyMode said:


> I simply just love this guy's ability to research and present information. You are a very smart person Jeanne.


hehe ty xD.


im a girl though


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## CuteJuubi (Jan 22, 2013)

Very informative Jeanne, but I have a question, if the scroll is truly a power upgrade, then why did Sasuke needed Oro to do it for him? how would Sasuke know if Orochimaru wouldn't take that power for himself? isn't it strange that you need a facilitator to beef up your own power, and knowing full well that the facilitator ("Oro") is a power hungry maniac? why would he help Sasuke if he can just take the power for himself, or if he can't, just refuse Sasuke's plea for help in using the scroll, perhaps the scroll isn't a powerup for Sasuke, what do you think?


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## Jeαnne (Jan 22, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> So many people say this is a great theory, but I don't see it. It doesn't answer
> -why they are going to Konoha
> -why TOWKE is there
> -why Orochimaru knows exactly that Sasuke wants to see "them" just because Sasuke hands him the scroll, if it does indeed cover such diverse subjects
> ...



ohh you just didnt get it because you are not aware of my other theories to be able to get what this one is about.

i will just answer you here so.

Can you see that image of Sasuke, looking like a tengu, and standing over a hawk that is using "uchiha related" clothes?


Tengus, in mythology, are the origin of the ninja. They are the ones thought to have passed ninjutsu down to humans(shojobo to uchiwakamaru/minamoto no yoshitsune), and they are also practitioners of shugendo(mentioned in this theory), which is pretty much the mythology sage mode.

So keep this in mind:

- Tengus are the origin of the ninja in mythology;
- Tengus practice Sage mode in mythology;
- There are Tengus drawn in the walls of the room where the Rikudou tablet is, in the Nakano temple;
- There are Tengus in the Konoha temple;
- The Susanoo is a Tengu, ie: a jutsu from the MS is a tengu, when there are temples in the Narutoverse dedicated to them;



now:

- why they are going to konoha?

answer: the nakano temple, or the konoha temple.

- why TOWKE is there?

answer: TOWKE/them are either the Tengus/Bird sages themselves, or people who have access to them, or both(TOWKE being a human that knows the tengus, and them being the tengus OR TOWKE being the tengu sage proportional of the elder frog - who can see the future);

- why Orochimaru knows exactly that Sasuke wants to see "them" just because Sasuke hands him the scroll, if it does indeed cover such diverse subjects?

Because the scroll would mention Rikudou, the tengus, and how Rikudou was able to create modern ninjutsu, and probably how he was even able to become Juubi's jinchuuriki. *The tengus or whoever is related to them would be mentioned in the scroll as the one who know everything*, as well as the ability obtained by Rikudou, ie: His original sage mode.

That being said, who would be better suited to answer Sasuke's question, than the ones who have passed down to Rikudou his ability to create modern ninjutsu, and obtain control over the nature elements? He wants to know *what a shinobi is*, who better than those who have teached the way of the ninja to Rikudou, who has preached it around the world?

- also, it's a small-ass scroll to contain so much.

see:



> - the philosophies of the martial arts;
> - include all special techniques;
> - stuff about heaven and earth;
> - the secrets of Shugendo and Mikkyo;



this is what amatsutatara is, now think about what that scroll is.

- it somehow mentions the one who knows everything/them;
- it somehow has a power, capable of taking control of this war;

now think about Orochimaru and Kabuto were after:

- Kabuto was after the truth behind ninjutsu;
- Kabuto and Orochimaru tried to guess what was written on the *tablet left by Rikudou*;
- Kabuto and Orochimaru wanted Sasuke to be able to reach their objective;
- Kabuto has said that with Ryuuchidou he became someone capable of creating and controlling, therefore *he was the closest person to the sage of the six paths alive*;

conclusions:

- both aimed for Rikudou;
- both aimed for sage mode;
- both aimed for Sasuke;
- both aimed for the tablet left by Rikudou inside of a temple, located in a room with Tengus(the origin of the ninja in mythology) drawn on its walls;

and now there is a scroll that is relevant, something that was in the hands of someone who has tried all of what i listed above.

AND, mirroring this, there are secret scrolls in mythology, called the amatsutatara scrolls, that hold the secrets behind ninpo, its story, its foundation and the powers behind it, to quote:



> They say that if you use the secrets written in them, the universal Mysterious power will respond to five natural main elements (Chi, Sui, Ka, Fu, Ku)



control of the five natural main elements. What does chakra do? it mirrors the water, the fire, the earth, the wind and the lightning, no? wouldnt it make sense if there is a sage mode capable of controlling all five elements of nature, and thats how Rikudou was capable of creating its "chakra manipulated" versions throught Juubi's creation powers? Juubi is the origin of chakra, but what exacly allowed Rikudou to emulate the nature elements with chakra? thats what this scroll could be about, the secret behind ninjutsu.


can you see where i am coming from with this theory now? 

thats why i think that they are reading to the nakano temple(or the konoha temple) - in konoha/the fire country, and the ones who know everything are who passed the ninjutsu and sage mode down to Rikudou, therefore they would be able to answer the questions that Sasuke is making, and just like the frog sages, it would make sense if they had special powers to be the ones who know everything.


i hope it clarified it for you xD, let me know if you have any other question.




CuteJuubi said:


> Very informative Jeanne, but I have a question, if the scroll is truly a power upgrade, then why did Sasuke needed Oro to do it for him? how would Sasuke know if Orochimaru wouldn't take that power for himself? isn't it strange that you need a facilitator to beef up your own power, and knowing full well that the facilitator ("Oro") is a power hungry maniac? why would he help Sasuke if he can just take the power for himself, or if he can't, just refuse Sasuke's plea for help in using the scroll, perhaps the scroll isn't a powerup for Sasuke, what do you think?




if you read the viz version of the chapter, you will see that Sasuke can use the power of the scroll by himself if he tries, but he "totally also needs Orochimaru for something else".

Sasuke doesnt depend on Orochimaru to being able to use the power of this scroll(considering the situation, Orochimaru seems to be the one who needs Sasuke - actually, his body -to be able to use the power in the scroll). 

After all, these is a reason why someone who had this kind of scroll in hands for so long, would risk himself so much to try to take over Itachi's, or Sasuke's body - the answer should simply be: he needs their body to use this.


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## CyberianGinseng (Jan 22, 2013)

Jeαnne said:


> hehe ty xD.
> 
> 
> im a girl though


Hush. Don't admit something like that. You'll have horny nerds descending on you by the shitload.


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## Chibason (Jan 22, 2013)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Hush. Don't admit something like that. You'll have horny nerds descending on you by the shitload.



She's posted images of herself, bro....take it from me, she's a cutie. 

@Jeanne- Yeah, I like this theory. It seems well thought out, and possible.


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## Jeαnne (Jan 23, 2013)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Hush. Don't admit something like that. You'll have horny nerds descending on you by the shitload.


well its not like its a secret, Jeanne is a female name 



btw, chapter 617 makes my thoughts even more possible, too bad i cant talk about it here


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## Bitch (Jan 23, 2013)

Nice theory.  I'm so proud of you.


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## Snowfairy (Jan 23, 2013)

I guess I'm still confused about some things in this theory. I'm curious if this is the case and tengu are somehow related to the creation of ninja and sages why only Uchiha's show techniques that resemble tengu.

Seeing as both Uchiha and Senju are decendants of Rikudou Sennin, why does one side have soooo much more information passed down and power that shows off the relation than the other side?







And why are the Uchiha shrine and the Fire temple both the only places to Show Tengu







Do you think that the Senju also have some connection to the Tengu if it all comes back to Rikudou Sennin and the origin of ninja?


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## Arthas (Jan 23, 2013)

Snowfairy said:


> I guess I'm still confused about some things in this theory. I'm curious if this is the case and tengu are somehow related to the creation of ninja and sages why only Uchiha's show techniques that resemble tengu.
> 
> Seeing as both Uchiha and Senju are decendants of Rikudou Sennin, why does one side have soooo much more information passed down and power that shows off the relation than the other side?
> 
> ...



Snowfairy, it's likely been a thousand+ years most probably since the Sage died.

The Younger Son's descendants might very well have gotten a Stone or Giant tree of their own for that matter but either lost it or let it get destroyed over the centuries.

Another possibility is that another branch of the younger son's family has their inheritance. For example the Hyuuga are most probably descendants of the Older Son but they don't have a tablet, the Uchiha do. There might a younger son descendant wondering the Naruto verse right now who has a famirly heriloom tucked away.


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## Bontakun (Jan 23, 2013)

Jeαnne said:


> ohh you just didnt get it because you are not aware of my other theories to be able to get what this one is about.
> 
> i will just answer you here so.
> 
> ...



Ah so they are finding tengus. Yes, now your theory makes more sense. This could be the "new characters" Kishimoto was talking about. Seems as good a theory as any


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## Jeαnne (Jan 23, 2013)

Snowfairy said:


> I guess I'm still confused about some things in this theory. I'm curious if this is the case and tengu are somehow related to the creation of ninja and sages why only Uchiha's show techniques that resemble tengu.
> 
> Seeing as both Uchiha and Senju are decendants of Rikudou Sennin, why does one side have soooo much more information passed down and power that shows off the relation than the other side?
> 
> ...


see, this is as much of a mystery as of why Rikudou would leave the tablet only for those who have the eyes to read it.

Maybe it has to do with the way that Rikudou divided the power(Uchihas did get the spiritual energy), or something actually went wrong with the elder brother.

the idea that they are "the origin" is just one of the possible theories, and its the one that goes better with the mythologic reference.

but for example, there is also the fact that all this "tengu" thing could be coming from the elder brother. Its because i dont wanna get too far in this, i already posted enough xD, but there is actually in buddhism a path called "tengudo: the realm of tengu, into which priests with no true knowledge but attachment, arrogance and prejudice, were believed to fall after their deaths".

the tengudo would fit the elder brother perfectly, but what of rikudou?

chances are that the tengu images are about the elder brother, while he put the tablet that was left by rikudou there.

btw, there is some Mandara stuff .

But what points to me the link between rikudou himself and the tengus, is the bashosen. That bashosen screams tengu, why would Rikudou have something like that? Where did he obtain it? After all, should we really consider that Rikudou has archieved all of this alone? There is more...he had power before the Juubi, power enough to allow him to seal it.


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## Jυstin (Jan 23, 2013)

This is all sort of refreshing. It sort of reminds me of Yasha's theory. That Uchiha/Tengu story-line would have been FAR more interesting than what Kishi gave us


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## NarutoxKakashi (Jan 25, 2013)

So, I'm convinced Sasuke is going to the Fire Temple after reading this thread. Check this out from the third data book:



Chiriku had "the gift of the sages". Guess what that is?



I'm sorry, does that scream senjutsu chakra to you, too? I'm thinking this "Gift of the Sages" chakra is the third way to access senjutsu and Sage mode. A toad mode, snake/dragon mode, and a hawk/tengu mode?

Here is my prediction: Sasuke and Oro go to the Fire Temple. Oro edo's some dead members of the Guardian Shinobi Twelve buried there. These resurrected members are proficient in their senju arts, teach Sasuke their skills, and teach him about the history of what a ninja is, too. 

Or everything I just said could be a bunch of bull. It's fun guessing, anyways.


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## Jeαnne (Jan 26, 2013)

NarutoxKakashi said:


> So, I'm convinced Sasuke is going to the Fire Temple after reading this thread. Check this out from the third data book:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


woah i had never seen the databook entry about this. Really interesting


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## Yami_no_Princess (Jan 26, 2013)

NarutoxKakashi said:


> I'm sorry, does that scream senjutsu chakra to you, too? I'm thinking this "Gift of the Sages" chakra is the third way to access senjutsu and Sage mode. A toad mode, snake/dragon mode, and a *hawk/tengu mode*?



Tengu sage mode would be amazing pek


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## Last Rose of Summer (Jan 26, 2013)

NarutoxKakashi said:


> So, I'm convinced Sasuke is going to the Fire Temple after reading this thread. Check this out from the third data book:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting...

This could give us more clues about the Akatsuki rings as they were used by Kakuzu and Hidan to enter the Temple. The rings were used to sync with Gedo Mazo, i.e. Juubi that is _natural energy_ _incorporated_... If the rings are somehow receptive to GM's natural energy gathering/help with it, then it makes sense for those rings to interfere with the Fire Temple gates' protective seal.


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## Jeαnne (Jan 26, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Interesting...
> 
> This could give us more clues about the Akatsuki rings as they were used by Kakuzu and Hidan to enter the Temple. The rings were used to sync with Gedo Mazo, i.e. Juubi that is _natural energy_ _incorporated_... If the rings are somehow receptive to GM's natural energy gathering/help with it, then it makes sense for those rings to interfere with the Fire Temple gates' protective seal.


woah this could really be the opportunity to explain those rings and akatsuki too so


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## Last Rose of Summer (Jan 26, 2013)

Jeαnne said:


> woah this could really be the opportunity to explain those rings and akatsuki too so



Ehh... somehow I don't see Kishi explaning that little detail. Nearly all the ring players are gone and Madara with Obito don't control Juubi with rings.


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## Jeαnne (Jan 26, 2013)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Ehh... somehow I don't see Kishi explaning that little detail. Nearly all the ring players are gone and Madara with Obito don't control Juubi with rings.


doesnt stop the possibility, depending on what is related to what, Kishi could end up mentioning this.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jan 27, 2013)

Shugendo, Nakano shrine, enlightenment, tengu and Sasuke 

This is what will most likely happen 

Nice theory 

I hope the relation of Hyuuga and Uchiha will be solved, VoTE fight...etc


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