# Prime Sauron with the one ring vs  the most powerful good beings in middle earth



## Transcendent Shinobi (Dec 21, 2014)

Location: Gates of Mordor

Starting distance: 100 meters

MindSet: Both sides intent to kill

Clarification: Team good guys are not restricted by Eru. So all wizards can use their maximum potential.

Restrictions: Sauron has to battle them alone. He has no orcs,trolls,nazgul etc to hlep him.

Team good guys consist of: Galadriel, Gandalf the White,Tom Bombadil, Elrond, Radagast the brown

Who wins?


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## AgentAAA (Dec 21, 2014)

the hell are the gates of middle earth?
Full power sauron with ring steamrolls, however.
The one big threat - bombadil - isn't on his land and that's pretty much where his power stops.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Dec 21, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> the hell are the gates of middle earth?
> Full power sauron with ring steamrolls, however.
> The one big threat - bombadil - isn't on his land and that's pretty much where his power stops.



Dude im pretty sure team good guys has at least a chance. Galadriel alone can put up a good fight. As could gandalf.

When I said Eru aka "The One" the god of Lotr universe isn't restricting gandalf and radagast's power that means that they can blitz sauron with everything they got.

The wizards are care takers of middle earth sent by Eru. But according to my ultra nerd lotr friends who have read all the books 100 times Gandalf is in the same class of sauron except he could never go 100% full power because thats not what Eru wanted.

Don't forget a restricted gandalf the grey stalemated a balrog. And this is a unrestricted gandalf the white.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 21, 2014)

...Jesus this threads makes me sad...



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Location: Gates of Middle Earth



What does this even? What Gates of ME?...Do you mean The Black Gate? The Gates of Erebor? Moria? Or do you mean the Gates of night itself?

in which case I'd have to ask why you think it was a good idea to set the fight in space;...



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Starting distance: 100 meters



For the kind of range and power these guys have they may as well be spooning each other at this distance 



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Clarification: Team good guys are not restricted by Eru. So all wizards can use their maximum potential.



So this isn't Saruman, Allatar, Pallando, Radagast and Gandalf

but Olorin, Curumo, Aiwendel, Romestamo and Morinehtar, IE their true forms and true beings? Or do you just mean them as wizards but with their full powers unrestrained?

Because there's no fucking way Sauron is handling three full power maiar coming for his ass with back up of any kind..and honestly..whatever area their in may as well be a set for the next mad max movie wen their done. 





Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Restrictions: Sauron has to battle them alone. He has no orcs,trolls,nazgul etc to hlep him.



Don't worry, with the fire power you're talking about they'd just get in the way...


Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Who wins?



The team with unfallen minor gods on it. 



AgentAAA said:


> the hell are the gates of middle earth?
> Full power sauron with ring steamrolls, however.
> The one big threat - bombadil - isn't on his land and that's pretty much where his power stops.



Tom also wouldn't do anything even if the fight took place in his territory except maybe yammer out a trippy poem to protect the woods or something.

I mean granted, it depends entirely on what you think Tom is..if you go with the interpretation that he's like Ungoliant and represents an aspect of reality untouched by either side (in Toms case nature itself?) then he can't be affected by the ainuir nor can he affect them...so its moot having him here, he just takes up space then after his turf gets wrecked he takes up shop in Fangorn or Lothlorien. 

if you go with him being a Valar like Lorien aka the dreaming Valar (whom Olorin would often come visit to learn from IIRC) then hoooboooooyyyyyy-while he wont directly take the field against a former retainer of his brothers, you just handed the other team the personification of hope and dreams, a being who is behind inspiration from dreams and courage..and they're going to get one hell of a boost in morale and determination

if you subscribe to him being Tulkas than AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..oh man..I don't even need to explain how badly this goes..

Same if you believe he's eru

personally I think he's either nature given sentience, or Lorien (and there's a lot to this, like this power over things not entirely in this world and how he and old man willow worked) in which case. The best case scenario is he contributes nothing..worse case..Saurons mindfucks are utterly undone by the guy who is his polar opposite and leagues above him. 




Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Dude im pretty sure team good guys has at least a chance. Galadriel alone can put up a good fight. As could gandalf.]



hah you were worried about this being a stomp in the other direction..how cute 



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> The wizards are care takers of middle earth sent by Eru. But according to my ultra nerd lotr friends who have read all the books 100 times Gandalf is in the same class of sauron except he could never go 100% full power because thats not what Eru wanted.
> .



Uhh? What? No, the only wizard who is a care taker of ME is Radagast and that's if you take later musings of Tolkien as canon over the published accounts, Radagast very well could have failed in his mission and grown obsessed with nature, become a hippie and been banned from returning west. The other Wizards were all about inspiring and helping the realms of men, Elves and Dwarves recover from and eventually beat the enemy...

these guys weren't fucking Kami..the earth was not their purview, it was the restoration of the realm of men and the breaking of Sauron and the dark powers for all time.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Dec 21, 2014)

lol sorry I ment the black gate of mordor

So obviously you know more then me about LOTR immortal.

Just for fun how would team good guys stand up against Melkor?


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## ThanatoSeraph (Dec 21, 2014)

Short answer:

They wouldn't.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 21, 2014)

All those at once?He would lose. Melkor will depend on his level but if it's when he was known as Melkor and not Morgoth then he blinks them away.


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## Masa (Dec 21, 2014)

It depends on which Melkor. Melkor at his best stomps them with ease. Morgoth probably loses considering how he was severely wounded by only one elf lord.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 21, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> lol sorry I ment the black gate of mordor
> 
> So obviously you know more then me about LOTR immortal.
> 
> Just for fun how would team good guys stand up against Melkor?



ah well, Mordor gets erased from the map and the environmental damage is probably felt as far as Harad for generations.

As for Melkor, he was nearly overcoming the other Valar until Tulkas showed up..so..he snuffs them out like candles in a hurricane.



ThanatoSeraph said:


> Short answer:
> 
> They wouldn't.



This



Tranquil Fury said:


> All those at once?He would lose. Melkor will depend on his level but if it's when he was known as Melkor and not Morgoth then he blinks them away.





Masa said:


> It depends on which Melkor. Melkor at his best stomps them with ease. Morgoth probably loses considering how he was severely wounded by only one elf lord.



Generally speaking Melkor refers to the "unfallen" as in "before he invested large portions of his energies in arda' when he was wrecking continents and the like and when he was imprisoned..

Morgoth refers to him as he was post the darkening of the trees and the theft of the silmarils..to as he was during the war of wrath and his imprisonment in the void.

Morgoth as he was when he and Ungoliant killed the two trees likely still kicks the shit out of them. its around the time of Fingolfins last stand that they might be able to overcome him


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 21, 2014)

Yeah early to mid First Age would stomp. Late First age was a shadow of a shadow himself.


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## AngryHeretic (Dec 21, 2014)

Original scenario, Sauron gets overwhelmed. He's almost certainly the most powerful Maia, especially in his prime, but he's not beating 2+ unrestricted Maiar. I would even bet he loses against the Maiar restricted, if all the wizards are there at once.

Melkor laughs and drops a mountain range on them or something.

Even after pouring his essence out to put evil on ME, Morgoth should be powerful enough to put up a fight, considering he beat the strongest (in physical terms) First Age elf lord and only suffered one minor injury. He would probably go down against five unrestricted Maiar considering he did get incapacitated by magic before (Luthien), but it wouldn't be a stomp for the good guys either, most of them probably die from the collateral damage of his swings.

Since Bombadil has been mentioned... is there any sort of consensus on how powerful he really is?


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 21, 2014)

Melian: Trumps him in magic. Luthien also learns her stuff from Melian and no doubt inherits some of her powers. Galadriel learnt from her and her gridle could keep away armies of Morgoth. 

Eonwe: Can outfight him being the best warrior of the Maia. Manwe's most powerful Maia. Sauron surrendered to him immediately and wanted to be forgiven but since Maia cannot judge Maia and only Valar can, Sauron fled rather than do that and Eonwe did not follow.

Osse: Osse is another depending on the material, Tolkien may have initially wanted him as a Valar so his feats are up there(he raised from the ocean Numenor IIRC) and he came back from Melkor's corruption somewhat with aid plus he creates storms. 

Illmare: Featless, implied to however hold similar position to Varda as Eonwe to Manwe. But then again Sauron may have had a similar position to Aule pre corruption being the greatest of Aule's order so this may not be proof.

Arien: Featless but she's the Maia who looks after the Sun or so. Did not get corrupted by Morgoth like the other fire spirits apparantly. She could be up there in power.

Tilion: Guards the moon or so. Could be up there in power himself.

Gothmog: He's a Maia and strongest Balrog. Sauron may have been Melkor's chief Sorceror arguably but Gothmog was the one who generalled forces and did most of the battle. He's physically superior atleast.

Gandalf the White was above Grey who stalemated a Balrog and still admitted inferiority to Sauron. Also if Olorin is still stronger than Gandalf the White then Sauron is above Curumo and Olorin by one level or so. Unless Gothmog is that much above Balrogs he may not necessarily win but still come close.

At the very least Melian, Eonwe, Gothmog and Osse are around or above his level in some cases. 



> Even after pouring his essence out to put evil on ME, Morgoth should be powerful enough to put up a fight, considering he beat the strongest (in physical terms) First Age elf lord and only suffered one minor injury.



6-7 wounds that would never heal and a limp. Fingolfin also lost as he could not kill Morgoth's spirit no matter how many times he wounded it and he was getting exhausted. He may still win even in this state but barely if he's lucky.

But otherwise most incarnations of Melkor/Morgoth wins.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Dec 21, 2014)

Just for fun and to keep this thread going what would you all say if Sauron had Smaug,Durin's Bane, and maybe even Gothmog on his side?
Or any other combination of those three at his disposal for this fight?

I guess the two best scenario's would be Sauron and Smaug and Durin's Bane vs Team good

Or Sauron and Gothmog vs Team good


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 21, 2014)

AngryHeretic said:


> Since Bombadil has been mentioned... is there any sort of consensus on how powerful he really is?



i touched on that, basically there's three prevailing theories about him

either he's Eru taking a vacation

He's a Valar taking a vacation

or he's the personification of nature as Ungoliant was of the void. 

There's plenty of evidence for the last two...though most people assume he's Aule for some unknown reason..(Aule didn't give a darn about trees) rather then say, Lorien or Orome or something. 

so it depends on what theory you subscribe too. 



Tranquil Fury said:


> Melian: Trumps him in magic. Luthien also learns her stuff from Melian and no doubt inherits some of her powers. Galadriel learnt from her and her gridle could keep away armies of Morgoth. ]



Melian may trump him in magic, I get the feeling she could block off Morgoth as much because of a commandment of fate as it was her own power.

but she's certainly up there. 





Tranquil Fury said:


> Eonwe: Can outfight him being the best warrior of the Maia. Manwe's most powerful Maia. Sauron surrendered to him immediately and wanted to be forgiven but since Maia cannot judge Maia and only Valar can, Sauron fled rather than do that and Eonwe did not follow.



Eonwe is the strongest Maiar period, to the point where he's as close to a touching the power of a Valar as he is a Maiar to where Tolkien almost retconned him to being Manwe's son..so I tend not to count him..he's less tier one and more tier zero. 
[





Tranquil Fury said:


> ]
> Osse: Osse is another depending on the material, Tolkien may have initially wanted him as a Valar so his feats are up there(he raised from the ocean Numenor IIRC) and he came back from Melkor's corruption somewhat with aid plus he creates storms.



in terms of physical strength Osse dwarfs him but Sauron may very well have been more powerful, Sauron just stat dumped nearly all of his potency into things like retaining knowledge, "discovering" more and building and shape shifting and of course mind rape 



Tranquil Fury said:


> Illmare: Featless, implied to however hold similar position to Varda as Eonwe to Manwe. But then again Sauron may have had a similar position to Aule pre corruption being the greatest of Aule's order so this may not be proof.



Generally speaking its safe to consider Sauron one of the top four..whether number two or three is flexible. 


Tranquil Fury said:


> Arien: Featless but she's the Maia who looks after the Sun or so. Did not get corrupted by Morgoth like the other fire spirits apparantly. She could be up there in power.



Morgoth flat out sent a bunch of "shadow" monsters possibly lesser maiar and fell spirits to kill her and wreck the sun and she no sold it..so she's up there.



Tranquil Fury said:


> Gothmog: He's a Maia and strongest Balrog. Sauron may have been Melkor's chief Sorceror arguably but Gothmog was the one who generalled forces and did most of the battle. He's physically superior atleast.



Even then Sauron outranked him. 



Tranquil Fury said:


> Gandalf the White was above Grey who stalemated a Balrog and still admitted inferiority to Sauron. Also if Olorin is still stronger than Gandalf the White then Sauron is above Curumo and Olorin by one level or so. Unless Gothmog is that much above Balrogs he may not necessarily win but still come close.



Olorin has word of god from Tolkien stating he was without peer the wisest of all Maiar, that it was his power that was below Saurons enough that he refused to go on the Istari mission and had to be convinced by Manwe. 

So in terms of knowledge and wisdom..to be called that puts him pretty high up there. 

[





Tranquil Fury said:


> At the very least Melian, Eonwe, Gothmog and Osse are around or above his level in some cases.



indeed. Though I'd put Gothmog below him and Eonwe so far above him as not to even count. 



Tranquil Fury said:


> 6-7 wounds that would never heal and a limp. Fingolfin also lost as he could not kill Morgoth's spirit no matter how many times he wounded it and he was getting exhausted. He may still win even in this state but barely if he's lucky.
> 
> But otherwise most incarnations of Melkor/Morgoth wins.



pretty much this, he was crippled after that exchange..it was easy win...so its possible this much fire power overwhelms him. 



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Just for fun and to keep this thread going what would you all say if Sauron had Smaug,Durin's Bane, and maybe even Gothmog on his side?
> Or any other combination of those three at his disposal for this fight?
> 
> I guess the two best scenario's would be Sauron and Smaug and Durin's Bane vs Team good
> ...



They still have no answer to an unrestricted Maiar...though. But it makes it a lot closer.


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## AngryHeretic (Dec 21, 2014)

Ah, good points. I'd forgotten about some of the less-frequently mentioned Maiar. Still, he's at least top-tier in ME at the time, even if some of the others would tip the scales very quickly.

Was Gothmog restricted when he was fighting for Morgoth in the First Age? If not, Sauron, Gothmog, and Durin's Bane against the unrestricted Istari + other non-factor good guys could be a close battle. Smaug wouldn't be as helpful, he would get shot down by the Istari fairly quickly.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 21, 2014)

We should probably add Luthien since she's half Maia, definately up there herself. Thorondor may be a Maiar too in which case arguably high up himself.



> Eonwe is the strongest Maiar period, to the point where he's as close to a touching the power of a Valar as he is a Maiar to where Tolkien almost retconned him to being Manwe's son..so I tend not to count him..he's less tier one and more tier zero.



Fionwe?Yeah I believe Tolkien originally intended Valar to have children but decided against that. I agree BTW, he should be in his own tier if Sauron crapped himself at his sight.



> in terms of physical strength Osse dwarfs him but Sauron may very well have been more powerful, Sauron just stat dumped nearly all of his potency into things like retaining knowledge, "discovering" more and building and shape shifting and of course mind rape



Yeah that's the type of thing that can make this tricky. Sauron being of Aule specialised more in manipulating matter/crafting things like Saruman. He had very potent telepathy, illusions and sorcery as well being essentially a stronger and more learnt Curumo since Sauron was the best of Aule, trained under Morgoth himself and gained some knowledge no doubt from Celebrimbor  who had some of Feanor's knowledge to pass on no doubt. 

It's just that his telepathy is blockable by most Maia so that goes out. In terms of Sorcery only Luthien and Melian could thrown down with him off the Maiar.



> Olorin has word of god from Tolkien stating he was without peer the wisest of all Maiar, that it was his power that was below Saurons enough that he refused to go on the Istari mission and had to be convinced by Manwe.
> 
> So in terms of knowledge and wisdom..to be called that puts him pretty high up there.



He was below Curumo in the Valinor order but being the wisest the only one who did something to contribute against Sauron or not depending on which version you go with. Tolkien was pretty harsh on Radagast and the Blue Wizards at one point before he changed his mind. Olorin hung out with Valar like Nienna and Irmo so he no doubt picked up things in terms of knowledge, wisdom and magic. 

EDIT


> Was Gothmog restricted when he was fighting for Morgoth in the First Age?



No, why?Fallen Maia are not restricted like Istari who were to take form of old men, not use their power much or at all if possible, not contend with Sauron and guide men. They are the only Maia restricted, the others like Osse or Sauron or Gothmog or Durin's Bane are not.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 21, 2014)

AngryHeretic said:


> Ah, good points. I'd forgotten about some of the less-frequently mentioned Maiar. Still, he's at least top-tier in ME at the time, even if some of the others would tip the scales very quickly.



Sauron should be "stronger' than all those mentioned but we tend to look at strength as physical capabilities, and the like..Sauron had way more in the tank then all of them but due to the nature of the species..he applied that strength differently and ended up being physically weaker than most..while still a good deal more potent and dangerous.




AngryHeretic said:


> Was Gothmog restricted when he was fighting for Morgoth in the First Age? If not, Sauron, Gothmog, and Durin's Bane against the unrestricted Istari + other non-factor good guys could be a close battle. Smaug wouldn't be as helpful, he would get shot down by the Istari fairly quickly.



they invested a great deal of power into those forms so much so that, they became form locked as quasi intangible elemental monster things. They are "restricted" compared to Olorin who possesses power he can tap into that they sorta dumped into their people suit and its physical strength.





Tranquil Fury said:


> We should probably add Luthien since she's half Maia, definately up there herself. Thorondor may be a Maiar too in which case arguably high up himself.[



Thorondor and his kids fought the god damn black dread for twelve hours with Earendil, he also maimed Morgoth. 

Thorondor is no joke,. he's larger than a jumbo jet and may as well be a one bird fleet of heavy bombers that could move like fighters.


Tranquil Fury said:


> Fionwe?Yeah I believe Tolkien originally intended Valar to have children but decided against that. I agree BTW, he should be in his own tier if Sauron crapped himself at his sight.



Fionwe Urion was the name they shoulda kept  or added Urion as a last name

IIRC he also squashed Morgoth the way Goldberg did WCW's midcard in the same passage IIRC .

It's kinda why I tend not to count him..he should be compared to Valar not to Maiar. 


Tranquil Fury said:


> Yeah that's the type of thing that can make this tricky. Sauron being of Aule specialised more in manipulating matter/crafting things like Saruman. He had very potent telepathy, illusions and sorcery as well being essentially a stronger and more learnt Curumo since Sauron was the best of Aule, trained under Morgoth himself and gained some knowledge no doubt from Celeborn who had some of Feanor's knowledge to pass on no doubt.



Celebrimbor* Celeborn was Galadriels wife 

And Sauron likely learned from more than just those two, he seems to be remarkably willing to adapt other peoples ideas and improve on them for his own ends. It wouldn't surprise me if he spent hours in Numenors libraries or when he took his island fortress poured over what he could learn from whatever info the Elves left behind, and I can imagine he did the same when he recovered the Dwarf rings, mind raping their masters and in any other opportunity.

Sauron was about control and he was very smart...I doubt he'd dismiss ideas not his own, pervert and misuse them and the like. It's stuff life selflessness and humility he couldn't comprehend.

Dump him in the marvel universe and he'd be smart enough to go underground assume "fair form" and do his best to learn from the local mages and scientists as much as he could..where as someone like Melkor would just start shit talking and want to fuck up as much as possible before being dog piled by the roster



Tranquil Fury said:


> ]It's just that his telepathy is blockable by most Maia so that goes out.



I don't think so, he subverted a former Maiar after all and once he was lured over to Melkors side likely was right there with his master converting followers form the Ainuir. 

Olorin could wisest of all Maiar, no doubt Eonwe could being *The* Herald of the high king of Valinor and all of Arda really..and the like..and of course Luthien nearly beat him at his own game when she staggered him against Huan..but I'd argue he's got enough solid feats to say other Maiar would have to be very cautious around him. 



Tranquil Fury said:


> In terms of Sorcery only Luthien and Melian could thrown down with him off the Maiar.



Indeed 


[





Tranquil Fury said:


> ]He was below Curumo in the Valinor order but being the wisest the only one who did something to contribute against Sauron or not depending on which version you go with. Tolkien was pretty harsh on Radagast and the Blue Wizards at one point before he changed his mind. Olorin hung out with Valar like Nienna and Irmo so he no doubt picked up things in terms of knowledge, wisdom and magic.



in terms of power yeah, in terms of wisdom it seems he exceeded even Eonwe. And as for his power ehh debatable IIRC Varda or Yavanna herself said "Olorin may go third but he is not third"

I think Radagast and the blue wizards got retconned..to succeeding and having different missions as well with Radagast being there to run interference against the beasts of the dark lord and the blue wizards possibly arriving before the rest of the Istari with Glorfindale in the second age and heading east...where Gandalf did note a marked difference in military might in the third age..so it seems they didn't fail after all,.


Tranquil Fury said:


> No, why?Fallen Maia are not restricted like Istari who were to take form of old men,.



They are restricted in different ways though, Balrogs became pure bricks with limited mystical capabilities and intangibility..much of their powers became grounded in their hell fire and their formless smoke.

So they are somewhat limited compared to the two hunters of Orome, a nature sprite and a chief craftsmen and his rival.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 21, 2014)

> Celebrimbor* Celeborn was Galadriels wife



I edited that before you quoted, I also read the post again and wondered why I wrote Celeborn, to be fair both started with Celeb.



> Sauron was about control and he was very smart...I doubt he'd dismiss ideas not his own, pervert and misuse them and the like. It's stuff life selflessness and humility he couldn't comprehend.



Yeah he was behind the schemes Melkor used and his plan to turn a bad situation into a great one by letting himself be captured to corrupt and ruin Numenor showed how quick on his feet he is. He had a hunger for knowledge and power as you said. Melkor was'nt stupid but clearly not the Chessmaster type like Sauron.



> I don't think so, he subverted a former Maiar after all and once he was lured over to Melkors side likely was right there with his master converting followers form the Ainuir.



Saruman to be fair was prone to arrogance and jealousy. His study of Ring lore and dark arts plus foolishly using the Palantir that opened him up to Sauron lead to his fall, even when he thought he was in control he was just doing Sauron's will. 



> They are restricted in different ways though, Balrogs became pure bricks with limited mystical capabilities and intangibility..much of their powers became grounded in their hell fire and their formless smoke.



Well to be fair Durin's Bane overwhelmed Gandalf the grey with his counter spell so I always assumed they kept their magic but I guess it's fair to say their magic diminished for more physical attributes.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 21, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Saruman to be fair was prone to arrogance and jealousy. His study of Ring lore and dark arts plus foolishly using the Palantir that opened him up to Sauron lead to his fall, even when he thought he was in control he was just doing Sauron's will. [



Saruman also was a specialist in the same field of mind rape, his mistake was giving Sauron a back door into his head but ultimately he fell due to Saurons power and skill and his own lack of self awareness. So it does seem like if others gave him an in..they'd be in trouble.


Tranquil Fury said:


> Well to be fair Durin's Bane overwhelmed Gandalf the grey with his counter spell so I always assumed they kept their magic but I guess it's fair to say their magic diminished for more physical attributes.




Right but that goes with "they didn't lose their strength" A Balrog can still put a lot of power behind what they still have access too...they just don't have the same versatility any more. 

I suppose I should have been more specific with that "they're magical bricks" where as Olorin still retains the ability to apply his power in different ways..some of which a Balrog probably wont be able to easily counter..or deal with. 

DB did survive the war of Wrath so some combat against Maiar likely happened unless they just abandoned the field the moment the continent wrecking host showed up


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## trance (Dec 21, 2014)

I'm not a big expert on LotR but wasn't Sauron at the height of his strength - i.e. with the Ring - comparable to the weakest of the Valar or something?


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## Masa (Dec 21, 2014)

Trance said:


> I'm not a big expert on LotR but wasn't Sauron at the height of his strength - i.e. with the Ring - comparable to the weakest of the Valar or something?



If you mean Morgoth after his fall, then yea, probably, but I doubt he was ever comparable to an actual Valar, unless you count the featless, non-combatant ones.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 21, 2014)

Trance said:


> I'm not a big expert on LotR but wasn't Sauron at the height of his strength - i.e. with the Ring - comparable to the weakest of the Valar or something?



With the ring he had surpassed Morgoth at the end of the first age not Melkor who was engaging twelve continent busters with low level reality warper on a planetary level if not higher.._and winning_ Until Tulkas showed up



Masa said:


> If you mean Morgoth after his fall, then yea, probably, but I doubt he was ever comparable to an actual Valar, unless you count the featless, non-combatant ones.



No he was never on a Valars level



BeyonderGod said:


> The feels in this thread.



Fuck is this guy?


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 22, 2014)

Sauron was more conservative with his powers and The One ring as per Tolkien increased his powers(could be referencing his ability to influence things than overall power level as well) while Morgoth was weakening from fights and pouring his power a lot. He supposedly is above Morgoth during the War of Jewels IIRC. Have to check that, at best he could be above Morgoth when he fought Fingolfin or after that fight.  Even then Morgoth's overall spirit would be greater due to it being of Valar make, Sauron was a smaller spirit who due to Morgoth's weakening and his own intelligence surpassed his master at one point but he still worshipped Morgoth so he was never free of his will and as Tolkien notes, Sauron using power to influence others and such also weakened him like Melkor before him and Saruman eventually.

So yeah Prime Sauron whether you consider that First Age Sauron or Second age Sauron post Ring making pre Numenor fall would be above a greater spirit Morgoth due to the latter being a shadow of a shadow of his former self.

But Prime Melkor/Morgoth>Aratar/8 great Valar>other Valar>Maia. You could say some Maia are sort of proto Valar/Valar wannabes but they would still be below an actual Valar. Tulkas whose not one of the 8 great Valar is still physically above them so he's sort of an exception due to his speciality but his spirit and overall power would be below them but still above a Maia.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 22, 2014)

Tulkas may not be counted among the eight but he's certainly their peers if not outright superior to most of them.


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## Reddan (Jan 17, 2015)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Sauron was more conservative with his powers and The One ring as per Tolkien increased his powers(could be referencing his ability to influence things than overall power level as well) while Morgoth was weakening from fights and pouring his power a lot. He supposedly is above Morgoth during the War of Jewels IIRC. Have to check that, at best he could be above Morgoth when he fought Fingolfin or after that fight.  Even then Morgoth's overall spirit would be greater due to it being of Valar make, Sauron was a smaller spirit who due to Morgoth's weakening and his own intelligence surpassed his master at one point but he still worshipped Morgoth so he was never free of his will and as Tolkien notes, Sauron using power to influence others and such also weakened him like Melkor before him and Saruman eventually.
> 
> So yeah Prime Sauron whether you consider that First Age Sauron or Second age Sauron post Ring making pre Numenor fall would be above a greater spirit Morgoth due to the latter being a shadow of a shadow of his former self.
> 
> But Prime Melkor/Morgoth>Aratar/8 great Valar>other Valar>Maia. You could say some Maia are sort of proto Valar/Valar wannabes but they would still be below an actual Valar. Tulkas whose not one of the 8 great Valar is still physically above them so he's sort of an exception due to his speciality but his spirit and overall power would be below them but still above a Maia.



Great post and something people tend to ignore when talking about Tolkien's work. 

The battledome is concerned with battle prowess and hence Tulkas is above any othe Vala in physical skills, but he does not have a more powerful spirit and cannot do the things that say Varda can do. 

It's the mistake people make with Fingolfin. Fingolfin was in some ways the Tulkas of the Noldor, where as Feanor was mightier in spirit but not the warrior his brother was. Most Men with the exception of Hurin and descendants of Elves would fall into the Fingolfin/Tulkas category. They may be immense physically, but overall weaker than Elves in terms of spirit.

Sauron's prime was probably when he had forged the One Ring, but as we see even then he was twice defeated by the Eldar and the Numenoreans. 

The only things that actually resided in ME for some time and could beat Sauron one on one for certain would be:

Earendil
Huan
Luthien
Melian

Fingolfin, and Hurin might have a shot too. 

Then there are other Maiar like Eonwe, Arien, Osse and possibly Tilion.


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## AngryHeretic (Jan 17, 2015)

Is Sauron just hyped as being stronger than War of the Jewels Morgoth (when he fought Fingolfin) or are his physical feats superior at his "peak"? I say that in quotes because, as TF said, at some point he exchanged his physical power to spread his influence, so it's hard to pin-point his peak. 

Because that would make a huge difference as to whether or not he can take Fingolfin or Earendil, who's supposed to be weaker than Fingolfin. As for Luthien, I doubt she could take him one-on-one, since he took her out at the start of his fight with Huan. I agree with the rest of those choices though.


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## Reddan (Jan 17, 2015)

AngryHeretic said:


> Is Sauron just hyped as being stronger than War of the Jewels Morgoth (when he fought Fingolfin) or are his physical feats superior at his "peak"? I say that in quotes because, as TF said, at some point he exchanged his physical power to spread his influence, so it's hard to pin-point his peak.
> 
> Because that would make a huge difference as to whether or not he can take Fingolfin or Earendil, who's supposed to be weaker than Fingolfin. As for Luthien, I doubt she could take him one-on-one, since he took her out at the start of his fight with Huan. I agree with the rest of those choices though.



It's not  made clear in the text. Sauron was always very good physically and never really wasted his power like Morgoth. 

What we do know is that even when Morgoth stole the Silmarils his own personal strength had decreased so much that the Balrogs together were now stronger than him. Tolkien only inteded for their to be between 3-7 Balrogs. 

A conservative estimate of 3 Balrogs would mean 3>Ungoliant (after eating two trees)>Morgoth. 

Sauron=Elendil+Gilgalad and I would say Elendil and Gil-galad were Balrog level.

However, after this point Morgoth still got weaker still by creating things like the dragons and Carcharoth. 

On the other hand if we say there were 7 Balrogs then at that point he was still around twice as strong as Sauron at his best.

I don't think Earendil is weaker than Fingolfin, especially after he got the Silmaril. Earendil is a special case being the chosen saviour of Elves and Men. He is the one to defeat Ancalagon the Black, which was the mightiest creature Morgoth ever had in his service.

The Luthien one is tricky. You are right that in their initial confrontation he did make her faint, but Luthien was very inexperienced at the time. Later on with more experience and Beren's life on the line she takes out people more powerful than Sauron.

Carcharoth was more powerful than Sauron and she put him to sleep with a word. She then put the whole of Angband to sleep.


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## Reddan (Jan 17, 2015)

Yes the likes of Elendil and earlier Numenorean Lords would be a match for the Noldor. The Numenoreans in their early years were indistinguishable from the Noldor except that they died. 

Elendil and Gil-galad killed Sauron, who was more powerful than any Balrog. Elendil and Gil-galad are always portrayed as equals and Gil-galad is one of the greatest elvish warriors of all time. 

The descendants of Earendil, Tuor,  Luthien, Fingolfin who were then taught by Eonwe are nothing to laugh at.


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## Strange of Eternity (Jan 17, 2015)

I don't know how one manages to misunderstand Tolkien that bad...
EDIT: Konohamaru killing Fingolfin?   Holy shit, that should be grounds to get hit by the bann hammer


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 17, 2015)

They killed Sharon with Gil-Galad Cirdan and Elrond with them :lol: while I can buy Elrond making a double take down with a balrog but Elendil?


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## Reddan (Jan 17, 2015)

Strange of Eternity said:


> I don't know how one manages to misunderstand Tolkien that bad...



What don't you understand? The mightiest elvish Lords and the mightiest men had a shot against a Balrog. Glorfindel/Ecthelion killing them. Fingon and Feanor giving a Balrog an equal fight and only losing to more than one Balrog. The likes of Turin/Beren/Hurin/Huor and then the early Numenorean kings were at that level. 

Beren defeated Celegorm known as the 'Strong Finwe'. Turin took over Nargothrond whilst a young Gil-galad was there and regarded as unbeatable by the Elves. Tuor killed Maeglin. 

Over time due to a number of reasons the power/life expectancy and knowledge of the Numenoreans began to decrease. However, guys like Ar-pharazon the Golden and Elendil were throwbacks. By luck they had the skills and the abilities of their forefathers. 

Legolas a Sindar elf bowed to Imrahil when he met him. Imrahil was still nothing to what the Numenoreans were at the time of Elendil let alone when Elros ruled.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Jan 17, 2015)

The line about "seven balrogs maximum" is scrawled in the margins of a very late draft and IIRC that's all we know about it, along with the fact that Tolkien was always making the Balrogs more and more important.

Personally I'm actually surprised that the idea of it as "true later canon" has become so widespread.

Especially (in this context) considering if you're going to go down that route it's likely that he wrote the story of the extinguishing of the Two Trees before he wrote there were only seven Balrogs.

And that in the larger Silm, this smaller number is not implied in there and there are many times implied to be enough to actually be a significant force which makes sense given how many Maiar Melkor is implied to have corrupted.

That and 7 balrogs being greater than Ungoliant who just waltzed into the halls of the Valar themselves and waltzed back out unharmed makes _absolutely no sense_.

Sure Ungoliant was scared of going there without sufficient promise of sating her hunger.

But something tells me there were more than seven Balrog level beings even disregarding the Valar in there.

Like the two "I take on multiple Balrogs" elves you mentioned above, not to mention the many Maiar explicitly stated to be there.

Apparently they all just stood and watched and went "oh nooooooooo" against two beings both weaker than seven Balrogs.


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## Reddan (Jan 17, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> They killed Sharon with Gil-Galad Cirdan and Elrond with them :lol: while I can buy Elrond making a double take down with a balrog but Elendil?



No they didn't. They killed Sauron by themselves. Elendil by chance is an Elrond 'clone' throwback. By pure luck he was an early Numenorean come again.

Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil. and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body.​
There is no mention of anyone else getting involved. Just the three respective leaders having a fatal duel to the death, where everyone taking part dies.

*After the battle with GilGalad and Elendil Sauron took a long while to build up *

Again there is no mention of anyone else getting involved.

From the information we have Sauron fights Elendil and Gil-galad at the same time. Sauron somehow manages to grab Gil-galads face and the heat from his hands burns him to death. Either before of after this he also manages to strike Elendil down, who falls and breaks Narsil.

All three men are dead, but Isildur then cuts off the ring from Sauron's finger forcing his spirit to flee and take thousands of years rebuilding  a body.



ThanatoSeraph said:


> The line about "seven balrogs maximum" is scrawled in the margins of a very late draft and IIRC that's all we know about it, along with the fact that Tolkien was always making the Balrogs more and more important.
> 
> Personally I'm actually surprised that the idea of it as "true later canon" has become so widespread.
> 
> ...



No the number of 7 makes sense, because as the tale grew he greatly increased their strength as mentioned. In the original Fall of Gondolin; Tuor is killing them 5 at a time.  Tolkien even mentions that Glorfindel's last stand against the Balrog would have to be rewritten to fit in better with the reduced, but increased strength of the Balrogs. 

Also the Balrogs are specifically corrupted fire spirits. Morgoth had other Maiar that were not fire spirits on his side like Osse was for some time. 

I believe and others don't that Glaurung and Ancalagon had the spirits of Maiar trapped in them. 

Even the Witch King is able to command spirits to possess dead bodies. Tolkien further states that some of the legendary Orc commanders would have been Maiar in the early days. 

Morgoth never encountered the Valar when he slew the two trees. He used the cover of darkness to hide what he was doing. The only person that stood against Morgoth in a fight was Finwe. The powerful sons of Feanor appeared to be out when this happened and of course Feanor was at the feast.


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## Reddan (Jan 17, 2015)

Skarbrand said:


> He also claimed Rock Lee outclasses Fingolfin and Orochimaru could beat Mandos
> 
> Aredneck "the Tolkien expert"



No need to make up lies. I never said that Orochimaru could defeat Mandos. Though it seems you have nothing to add to discussion.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 17, 2015)

Seriously people...


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## Red Angel (Jan 17, 2015)

Reddan said:


> I can only hope that you are younger than 12. Trying to act tough on an internet forum is frankly quite embarrassing.



Aaaand busting out the passive aggressive condescension

Oh please Aredneck, you're one of the least credible users here so spare me the e-thug/pseudo intellectual tone plz

"Embarrassing", sorry, coming from the guy who fled the OBD for about half a year after getting rekt on the Voldemort vs LOTR, only coming now hoping it all blew over? 

And, and UD, while you're at it, can you section Aredneck, we have lobbied for it for some time now and exposed him for downplaying god knows how many times

Seriously though, what's with this new trend of tryhard downplayers we've been getting over the last few months?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 18, 2015)

Reddan said:


> durrrr not knowing what the fuck I'm talking about as usual .



as usual you are either misreading shit, making shit up or in this case confusing "gets credit for the kill" with "and these guys were also there"

And thus debating me on something I wasn't disputing in the first place numbnuts 



> 'Alas! Yes,' said Elrond. 'Isildur took it as should not have been. It should have been cast then into orodruin's fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only C?rdan stood, and I.



derpaderp



Skarbrand said:


> Seriously though, what's with this new trend of tryhard downplayers we've been getting over the last few months?



I don't even understand where "current shit overrulles all older stuff " comes from, it appeared in the dbz vs comic debates seven years ago and then spread like a plague

it don't work like that...unless there's been a canon wide retcon or something


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## Reddan (Jan 18, 2015)

Read more about LOTR. Tolkien clarifies things. We don't know all the details, but we are given enough to have a vague understanding.

After 7 years of besieging Barad dur  somehow Sauron breaks through. 
He then makes for Mount Doom or he is driven there by the Host of the West.
At this point maybe in desperation there seems to be a duel between the Elendil/Gil-galad/Sauron.

Isildur, Cirdan and Elrond are present watching, but they do not fight. 

In the Silmarillion we have. 

*Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-Gald and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down,*

Tolkien again tells us in Letter 131

*Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron.*

Letter 200
*
After the battle with Gil-Galad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to to rebuild, longer than he had done after the fall of Numenor.*

Again only Gil-galad and Elendil fight Sauron.

Gandalf again tells us what happens.

*It was Gil-Galad, Elven-king and Elendil of Westernesse who overthrow Sauron, though they themselves perished in the deed; and Isildur Elendil?s son cut the ring from Sauron?s hand and took it for his own.*

When there is a team effort Tolkien tells us this. He repeatedly says the White Council drove Sauron out of Mirkwood not Gandalf, not Saruman, not Galadriel, not Elrond, but the White Council. He even reveals that Saruman played the biggest role, but maintains it was a group.

Sauron vs Elendil and Gil-galad was the ultimate duel to end war. The two best warriors and respective kings face Sauron in a fatal duel.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 18, 2015)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> snip



Tolkien made quite some retcons in his work. In his initial drafts they may not even have been Maia. We've had them die in large numbers by single warriors in early drafts. If you bring up Ungoliath she was arguably amped on the trees, she scared Morgoth and her webbing could cloak from Valar level yet the Balrogs could chase her off. 

The later canon idea is important because Tolkien kept making changes and it's obvious some things like Fionwe can't be canon when he changed the idea of Valar having children so no son of Manwe but he did become Eonwe.

Now whether there were more Balrogs before Morgoth's defeat and only 7 survived or whether there were 7 Balrogs in total of history is harder to say considering the retcons.

It also appears to be Christoper Tolkien's potential retcon so whether it is to be taken seriously or not is another issue. He claims his father wanted only 7 but even then the wording is vague as to 7 after Morgoth's defeat or including before.

If Tolkien changed his mind to make Balrogs Maia and felt he had to reduce their number as a result then it's possible it's the more recent retcon/change in draft. Problem is that if true, he never got around removing those other Balrog deaths. 

But this issue is still debated by Tolkien fans.



> Earendil



I disagree on this. Earendil killed Ancalagon but he did have King of Eagles and other Eagles with him, they themselves may be Maia but regardless clearly Maia level. I would put Earendil on tier with Glorfindel(First age) a warrior who can fight Balrogs/Maia level. But Sauron is not a typical Maia even pre fall.

I think he could put up a fight against Sauron though.


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## Reddan (Jan 18, 2015)

Tranquil Fury said:


> I disagree on this. Earendil killed Ancalagon but he did have King of Eagles and other Eagles with him, they themselves may be Maia but regardless clearly Maia level. I would put Earendil on tier with Glorfindel(First age) a warrior who can fight Balrogs/Maia level. But Sauron is not a typical Maia even pre fall.
> 
> I think he could put up a fight against Sauron though.



Earendil and the eagles were not just fighitng Ancalagon though. They were fighting all the flying dragons that Morgoth had unleashed. These dragons were enough to drive back the Host of Valinor led by Eonwe himself. 

But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire.​
Sauron was not a typical Maiar, but Earendil was the prophesied saviour.

'Hail Earendil, of mariners most renowned, the looked for that cometh at unawares, the longed for that cometh beyond hope! Hail Earendil, bearer of light before the Sun and Moon! Splendour of the Children of Earth, star in the darkness, jewel in the sunset, radiant in the morning!'

But Earendil came, shining with white flame,and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Earendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin.​
The great birds are with him, but it seems like he personally slew Ancalagon the Black.

That apart from all the descriptions about him and his status amongst the elves he seems to have a special place alongside Luthien.



Tranquil Fury said:


> Tolkien made quite some retcons in his work. In his initial drafts they may not even have been Maia. We've had them die in large numbers by single warriors in early drafts. If you bring up Ungoliath she was arguably amped on the trees, she scared Morgoth and her webbing could cloak from Valar level yet the Balrogs could chase her off.
> 
> The later canon idea is important because Tolkien kept making changes and it's obvious some things like Fionwe can't be canon when he changed the idea of Valar having children so no son of Manwe but he did become Eonwe.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's correct to call them retcons, though Tolkien did retcon certain things. Tolkien was quite determined to not change anything that he had printed unless it was absolutely necessary. Christopher Tolkien says on more than one occasion like with the parentage of Celebrimbor that Tolkien would stick with what was published in LOTR.

Sadly due to other commitments he never finished the story and we only have drafts and Christopher Tolkien has done his best to give us the stories as they were to be. 

In the case of the Balrogs, it's one thing to claim that you stick to the early versions where there were armies of Balrogs, but if that is the case then you cannot have them be the same power as they were later when they had become fewer in the number. 

One correction is that the note is very clear that Tolkien is not talking about the number that survived, but the number that ever existed. 

*There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed*

Lastly Christopher Tolkien has the authority, which he rarely ever uses to do what he likes with the unpublished material. His father fully trusted him to decide on what was cannon or make his own, but he chooses not to. Though of course Tolkien fans have discussed what is cannon when statements contradict each other or it is not clear what Tolkien wanted. In some cases the Professor purposely wrote two contradictory accounts and we can only decide which one we think is more likely ie the origins of the Elessar or the lineage of Prince Imrahil.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 18, 2015)

Reddan said:


> Read more about LOTR..



This is hilarious coming from the guy who thinks Fingolfin can't beat a genin



Tranquil Fury said:


> But this issue is still debated by Tolkien fans.



I'd also add a lot of Tolkien fans will deliberately ignore what they perceive as "high wank DnD type animu shit" which is what they refer to the better feats in the series as, because they believe it contradicts the narrative..IE they fall into a trap of placing their interpretations and perceptions above what's actually happening on the page.

Because of that, there's more than a few camps in the fandom that are absolutely untrustworthy from a vs debate perspective.


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## Brightsteel (Jan 18, 2015)

> This is hilarious coming from the guy who thinks Fingolfin can't beat a genin



Been a while since I read the Siilmarillion (a few months and I kinda skimmed)........but didn't Fingolfin permanently wound Meklor?


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## Strange of Eternity (Jan 18, 2015)

Yeah, one of the better tales of Tolkien's cannon, elf goes up against someone who might as well be the devil himself and challenges him to a one on one fight, he ends up losing his life, but the dark lord limped forever afterwards.
Fingolfin was so mighty the minions of Morgoth didn't even chanted nothing about his defeat, and the king of eagles himself went down to retrieve his body.


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## Reddan (Jan 18, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> Been a while since I read the Siilmarillion (a few months and I kinda skimmed)........but didn't Fingolfin permanently wound Meklor?



Yes he stabbed him 7 times and chopped off part of his foot permanently maiming him. However, this was Morgoth not Melkor. Melkor had no permanent form, he could create a body at will, rise up mountains, smash mountains etc. In the end he spent all his power corrupting the world.

In Lord of the Rings sorcery is using Morgoth's power in the universe to perform 'magic'.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 18, 2015)

Fingolfin's fight as mentioned was against Morgoth and it was when he was a shadow of his former self(arguably shadow of a shadow as more accurate). Fingolfin was able to wound 6-7 times but got tired and eventually crushed. He could not kill Morgoth permanently no matter how many times he struck him because he was still a great spirit. Morgoth would be permanently wounded and limp.

Fingolfin is an uber elf even compared to First Age elves barring maybe Luthien(half Maia) and his brother Feanor who was overall the strongest elf but somewhat below Fingolfin in skill(he still required multiple Balrogs to bring down however).



> Fingolfin was so mighty the minions of Morgoth didn't even chanted nothing about his defeat



He scared them with his rage. You know you're legit when the Devil equivalent of your verse' armies are scared of you.



> Because of that, there's more than a few camps in the fandom that are absolutely untrustworthy from a vs debate perspective.



Not denying there are'nt downplayers who handwave everything as poetic language.


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## Reddan (Jan 18, 2015)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Not denying there are'nt downplayers who handwave everything as poetic language.


Why do you people here think that some would downplay a series they love. I am talking about LOTR, because I am currently in the middle of my yearly reread? 

Not everything is poetic language, but when you have people thinking that First Age Elves were bouncing about like Rock Lee then there is a serious problem. There are people who genuinely believe that Feanor/Fingolfin were hypersonic. I have heard people ask if Fingolfin could move at the speed of lightning. 

The LOTR has uber elves: Galadriel, Glorfindel and Elrond (Half-Elven) are as powerful as First Age elves got. Galadriel is the second greatest of the Noldor and one of their best athletes; she was Feanor's rival. 

Elrond point blank tells us that a host of First Age Elves would not be able to march into Mordor and destroy the ring. 

Even a much more powerful version of Glorfindel the Balrog slayer cannot stand against the 9 on foot and people are arguing that he was supersonic. How can you logically read the books, claim to love them and then distort them so much?

It's not downplaying to want to discuss the story for what it is.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 18, 2015)

But my post was'nt referencing you in particular. There are some fans who think Morgoth and such moving mountains and what not is hyperbole due to the mythic nature and should not be taken at face value. I did'nt single anyone out in particular in my post.


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## Strange of Eternity (Jan 18, 2015)

>Offers Elrond as an example of the limit of power to first age elves just a few posts down of us discussing Fingolfin and Feanor.
>Expects to be taken seriously.


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## Reddan (Jan 18, 2015)

Tranquil Fury said:


> But my post was'nt referencing you in particular. There are some fans who think Morgoth and such moving mountains and what not is hyperbole due to the mythic nature and should not be taken at face value. I did'nt single anyone out in particular in my post.



OK, but if anything what Melkor was doing is underplayed, because of the use of mythological language.  It's the opposite regarding Melkor. Tolkien tried to translate the early Silmarillion out of the mythology and you have Melkor messing with the Earth's orbit and the actual sun to effect the climate. He never found a way to do this and I think the story lost a lot of it's beauty when he tried. 

Later though there is no problem translating out the original story and we still have mountains being raised and destroyed. Melkor raising the Misty Mountains and consequently the Mountains being so hostile to the Fellowship. I think that's also part of the reason the Balrog sought refuge there. Entire continents being destroyed are an important part of the story concerning the early Valar/Melkor fights, because that's precisely why they didn't want to fight Melkor and destroy the world again. Luckily he is getting so much weaker the scale of the wars are ever decreasing. 

The War of Wrath, which only appears to have had Maiar, Elves, Men and Eagles sunk an entire continent. 

Osse dragging Tol Eressa are all very real feats. 

He spent so much time expanding upon and clarifying things.There's lots that we have to question and debate what his final intention was, but the feats of the Valar and some of the more powerful Maiar are what they are.



Strange of Eternity said:


> >Offers Elrond as an example of the limit of power to first age elves just a few posts down of us discussing Fingolfin and Feanor.
> >Expects to be taken seriously.



It may come as a shock to you, but Elrond was born in the First Age and lead the Edain in the War of Wrath, which destroyed Angband. Elrond is the one Gil-galad puts in charge of his armies and never is his power questioned in the stories.


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## Strange of Eternity (Jan 18, 2015)

Do your know any other style of "debate" other than condescendence and stupidity? Those two are not a good combo.
Seriously, do your wanna go down that road of comparing Fingolfin with Elrond? ... Go ahead, school me as to why Elrond is on the same level, I'll even hold my breath.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 18, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> Been a while since I read the Siilmarillion (a few months and I kinda skimmed)........but didn't Fingolfin permanently wound Meklor?



No Morgoth, a vastly weakened Melkor.

The battle was still blatantly beyond anything seen in Nardo until Pein pancaked Konoha making his claim retarded none the less.



Strange of Eternity said:


> Yeah, one of the better tales of Tolkien's cannon, elf goes up against someone who might as well be the devil himself and challenges him to a one on one fight, he ends up losing his life, but the dark lord limped forever afterwards.
> Fingolfin was so mighty the minions of Morgoth didn't even chanted nothing about his defeat, and the king of eagles himself went down to retrieve his body.



getting confused for a god of the hunt..and rage aura raping an entire country Balrogs and Dragons included. 



Tranquil Fury said:


> Not denying there are'nt downplayers who handwave everything as poetic language.



Well that's more for verses, my issue with the Tolkien fandom as a whole is they interpret everything on a personal level. 



Reddan said:


> It's not downplaying to want to discuss the story for what it is.



only, that's not what you're doing at all

you're an idiot fanboy and a nardotard. You're dishonest and pretty much everything wrong with the Tolkien fandom.

You engage in "Orcish' behavior, deconstructing, subversive, degenerate and abhorrent and in doing so you make an ignorant mockery of the series you purport to love,

tldr: you have no business debating this stuff. 





Strange of Eternity said:


> >Offers Elrond as an example of the limit of power to first age elves just a few posts down of us discussing Fingolfin and Feanor.
> >Expects to be taken seriously.



While claiming that First age top tiers are inferior to Rock Lee



Reddan said:


> It may come as a shock to you, but Elrond was born in the First Age and lead the Edain in the War of Wrath, which destroyed Angband. Elrond is the one Gil-galad puts in charge of his armies and never is his power questioned in the stories.




.....did you just claim Elrond lead humanity in the war and contributed to the destruction of Aangbad?



Strange of Eternity said:


> Do your know any other style of "debate" other than condescendence and stupidity? Those two are not a good combo.
> Seriously, do your wanna go down that road of comparing Fingolfin with Elrond? ... Go ahead, school me as to why Elrond is on the same level, I'll even hold my breath.



I think its more "Does Arednad, a professed Naruto fan, library regular and chronic downplayer who has lost every Tolkien debate he ever posted in, claimed Oro would be akin to Mandos and that Konohamaru can handle Fingolfin, someone who lies as often as he flat out doesn't know what he's talking about, honestly think acting that smug makes him look as anything but a fool?"

To quote Gandalf "crawl back to the shadows, return to the abyss that awaits you and Narumod"


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 18, 2015)

Different interpretations does not make one a liar. From what you've said it sounds like their is no consensus in the fandom so instead of automatically assuming he's trolling why don't you prove your case instead. Personal attacks are unnecessary.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 18, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Different interpretations does not make one a liar. From what you've said it sounds like their is no consensus in the fandom so instead of automatically assuming he's trolling why don't you prove your case instead. Personal attacks are unnecessary.



I'm speaking specifically to things like him claiming the higher end feats we're citing here are BS, and his nardo tirades, that would be dishonesty.

The fandoms consensus stuff is more academic, Tolkien based vs debating falls into two categories 
"people who take shit so literal you end up with universal tier Valar"

and guys like us that walk a more conservative road..

discounting the trolls of course..


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## Reddan (Jan 18, 2015)

Strange of Eternity said:


> Do your know any other style of "debate" other than condescendence and stupidity? Those two are not a good combo.
> Seriously, do your wanna go down that road of comparing Fingolfin with Elrond? ... Go ahead, school me as to why Elrond is on the same level, I'll even hold my breath.



When people are rude I will reply in like manner. Show respect to others and you will get respect shown back in turn.


Fingolfin is the best Elvish warrior there has ever been, but he is not leagues above the other elite Elvish warriors. 

As for in terms of spiritual power Elrond can contend( not necessarily greater), but contend with any elf. 

We know Galadriel WAS a match for Feanor etc and Elrond is on her level.

Elrond is more likely than Galadriel to defeat Sauron with the One Ring. 

In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.​ (Not including Gandalf)

Elrond had the mightiest of the three rings and throughout the story he is treated as Galadriel's equal.

and last came Master Elrond, mighty among both Elves and Men.​
That apart his ability to raise an entire river to flood and the enchantment he puts on Rivendell are some of the greatest magical feats we see outside Feanor and Luthien.

As for him being at the War of Wrath he outright tells us he was there.

I remember well the splendour of their lances. It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days, and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the elves deemed that evil was ended forever and it was not so.​
Do you think that Elros turned up and the leaders of the Edain declared him king after they had just fought a 50 year war?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 18, 2015)

Reddan said:


> When people are rude I will reply in like manner. Show respect to others and you will get respect shown back in turn.



Earn respect, and you will be respected in kind. Continue to claim Genins beat Fingolfin and you will be mocked.




Reddan said:


> Fingolfin is the best Elvish warrior there has ever been, but he is not leagues above the other elite Elvish warriors.



I must have missed the chapter of the fellowship of the ring where Elrond and Glorindale were confused for Orome and Tulkas.




Reddan said:


> We know Galadriel WAS a match for Feanor etc and Elrond is on her level.





this is especially idiotic considering you argued Saruman could take Galadriel..as if you think he's above Feanor 




Reddan said:


> Elrond is more likely than Galadriel to defeat Sauron with the One Ring.



....I don't what? You just claimed she was even with Feanor and Fingolfin..



Reddan said:


> In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.​ (Not including Gandalf)
> 
> Elrond had the mightiest of the three rings and throughout the story he is treated as Galadriel's equal.
> 
> and last came Master Elrond, mighty among both Elves and Men.​



equal in rank and wisdom..this does not necessarily mean power. 




Reddan said:


> As for him being at the War of Wrath he outright tells us he was there.
> 
> I remember well the splendour of their lances. It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days, and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the elves deemed that evil was ended forever and it was not so.​
> Do you think that Elros turned up and the leaders of the Edain declared him king after they had just fought a 50 year war?



..none of that suggests what you implied. which was that he and his brother played a critical role in Morgoth's defeat when it was his father and the Vanyar under Eonwe who did that.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jan 18, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Earn respect, and you will be respected in kind. Continue to claim Genins beat Fingolfin and you will be mocked.



Technically Naruto and Sasuke were genin 

also Obito


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## Reddan (Jan 18, 2015)

Galadriel is quite clearly on the level of Fingolfin and Feanor. Fingolfin was a greater warrior and Feanor more powerful, but she was certainly on there level. There are so many quotes to support this.

Her mother-name was Nerwen ("man-maiden"), and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth.

For F?anor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.

Who(Feanor and Galadriel) together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except F?anor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.​
As for Elrond/Elros role I never claimed he played as bigger role as Eonwe or Earendil. I said he alongside Elros lead the Edain in the War of Wrath. Apart from Cirdan there is not another warrior I can think of that has seen as much combat as Elrond.


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## Strange of Eternity (Jan 18, 2015)

So that was it? That's how you "schooled me" on Tolkien lore? 
Come on, you're ignoring basic fucking facts, like the fact that no one on the third age (that's including your current tool for downplaying, Elrond) was capable of weilding the One, doesn't matter how much they believed they could, and that third age form locked Sauron was still to much to handle to the top tiers of the third age, namely Galadriel and Gandalf, to claim that this people (and by extension Elrond) are on the same level as the fucking greatest pair of elves that ever existed is downright retarded, considering everything they did in their lifetimes. (Specially Fingolfin, who tangoed with Morgoth, that even at his weakest was above the most powerful Sauron).
That's why no one takes your seriously, your don't know what the fuck you're talking about.


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## Reddan (Jan 18, 2015)

Strange of Eternity said:


> So that was it? That's how you "schooled me" on Tolkien lore?
> Come on, you're ignoring basic fucking facts, like the fact that no one on the third age (that's including your current tool for downplaying, Elrond) was capable of weilding the One, doesn't matter how much they believed they could, and that third age form locked Sauron was still to much to handle to the top tiers of the third age, namely Galadriel and Gandalf, to claim that this people (and by extension Elrond) are on the same level as the fucking greatest pair of elves that ever existed is downright retarded, considering everything they did in their lifetimes. (Specially Fingolfin, who tangoed with Morgoth, that even at his weakest was above the most powerful Sauron).
> That's why no one takes your seriously, your don't know what the fuck you're talking about.



Where do you get that no one in the Third Age was capable of wielding the One Ring? Gandalf and Saruman definitely could wield the ring. Glorfindel might have been able to as might have Elrond and Galadriel. It's not clear if they could.

Third Age Sauron was too much for First Age elves like Finrod to handle as well. 

As for the greatest elves Tolkien, the guy who wrote the books tells us the answer. 

Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel are the greatest elves(though Half-Elven are excluded). You are calling Tolkien the author of the books retarded! He is the one that made that statement.

Tolkien says Galadriel was greater than Fingolfin and you call me retarded for quoting him. He does not even say it once, but numerous times.


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## Strange of Eternity (Jan 18, 2015)

I'm getting this from Tolkien himself:


			
				Tolkien letter said:
			
		

> But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.


But it's a waste of time to continue, you're clearly not interested on properly debating, only on downplaying and stalling.

Edit: Also, don't be a lying ass, post the full quote: because after this quote: 





> In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.


Tolkien goes on to say that the thought of being able to handle the One is part of the One's power, of filling the mind with baseless imaginations of unlimited power, of wich it granted none.


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## Reddan (Jan 18, 2015)

Strange of Eternity said:


> I'm getting this from Tolkien himself:
> 
> But it's a waste of time to continue, you're clearly not interested on properly debating, only on downplaying and stalling.



Have you read the entire letter? I also notice you have not replied to calling Tolkien 'retarded about his own work?

No Elf in the First Age is going to 'master the ring' in that sense.

We were talking about wielding the ring and Tolkien himself uses the term when mentioning the candidates. 
In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.​
Gandalf of Saruman with the ring would have left Sauron as impotent and powerless as he was after it was destroyed. However, it's an evil ring and they would still be corrupted by it. 

Gandalf would be worse that Sauron with the Ring, because he would be righteous, but self righteous.

Gandalf] would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great​
I am still waiting for your reply on calling Tolkien retarded about the world he created.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 18, 2015)

It's remarkable how nothing in that passage actually contradicts SE's assessment that Galadriel was being duped wholesale by the ring beyond "if she actually managed to use it to punk out Sauron..she'd be little more than titty Sauron while Gandalf would have been muuch worse because people probably would have willingly bought what he was selling for a long time"


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 18, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Earn respect, and you will be respected in kind. Continue to claim Genins beat Fingolfin and you will be mocked.



Make sure you direct your snark at the argument and not the person.


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## Reddan (Jan 19, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> It's remarkable how nothing in that passage actually contradicts SE's assessment that Galadriel was being duped wholesale by the ring beyond "if she actually managed to use it to punk out Sauron..she'd be little more than titty Sauron while Gandalf would have been muuch worse because people probably would have willingly bought what he was selling for a long time"



He claimed that nobody in the Third Age could wield the ring. I said this was false and showed him that at least two characters and possibly others could have wielded the ring as well. 

He then made a completely different claim about no one being able to 'master the ring' and use it for good. This was a ridiculous claim, because the ring is evil. By using it you are already agreeing to do evil. No elf in the First Age could 'master the ring' either.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 19, 2015)

Reddan said:


> He claimed that nobody in the *Third Age could wield the ring*. I said this was false and showed him that at least two characters and possibly others could have wielded the ring as well.
> 
> He then made a completely different claim about no one being able to 'master the ring' and use it for good. This was a ridiculous claim, because the ring is evil. By using it you are already agreeing to do evil. No elf in the First Age could 'master the ring' either.



And the narration there proves that aside from Maiar, that's not an incorrect statement. So you know....derpaderp

edit- personally I think Galadriel has enough *feats* to suggest she could do it if she did it the way Saruman thought he could do it (and he was clearly full of himself there), but that's not relevant to the argument you two are having, and I have no interest in hearing your bullshit "well Saruman is above Feanor" follow up...


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 19, 2015)

> No elf in the First Age could 'master the ring' either.



Feanor?Feanor also possibly built the Palantirs and was behind the Silmarils. It took multiple Balrogs to bring him down and his spirit could burn through his body upon death?

His whole theme is that he is lost potential for good, Manwe would weep as much for him as he would losing the Trees because of what Feanor could have done while good with his intellect and power. Feanor was an exception, he's the strongest elf overall in terms of spirit and such which matter for The One. 

He'd be prime picking for The One but he'd master it. He learnt all kinds of things during the time of Valar, he was'nt very wise like Galadriel but in terms of pure scholastic knowledge he's the smartest even above Elrond.

Luthien is half Maia and daughter of Melian, she could do it too.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 19, 2015)

Feanor would do it easily

as would Luthien and Fingolfin, Thingol too I would think


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## AgentAAA (Jan 19, 2015)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Feanor?Feanor also possibly built the Palantirs and was behind the Silmarils. It took multiple Balrogs to bring him down and his spirit could burn through his body upon death?
> 
> His whole theme is that he is lost potential for good, Manwe would weep as much for him as he would losing the Trees because of what Feanor could have done while good with his intellect and power. Feanor was an exception, he's the strongest elf overall in terms of spirit and such which matter for The One.
> 
> ...



silmarils >>> Ring. and yeah. Feanor in and of himself was a pretty big abberation among the elves and judging him by the standards of any other elf isn't the best idea. his spirit was so powerful it literally ended up burning him apart from the inside.


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## Reddan (Jan 19, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> And the narration there proves that aside from Maiar, that's not an incorrect statement. So you know....derpaderp
> 
> edit- personally I think Galadriel has enough *feats* to suggest she could do it if she did it the way Saruman thought he could do it (and he was clearly full of himself there), but that's not relevant to the argument you two are having, and I have no interest in hearing your bullshit "well Saruman is above Feanor" follow up...



No Tolkien gives no definitive answers, but says what is most likely.

1. Gandalf is the only one that can be expected to use the ring to defeat Sauron.
2. Galadriel thought she could do it too.
3. If Galadriel could do it then so could the other ring bearers and most notably Elrond.
4. However, the ring deluded people so there is no guarantee Galadriel was correct.
5. Either way Galadriel and Elrond would not have confronted Sauron directly, but built huge armies and destroyed Mordor like the Numenoreans/Elves did previously.
6. Gandalf has a decent shot at confronting Sauron in person and defeating him.

Tolkien does not mention Glorfindel, because at this point he had yet to clear up his exact position, but given what we know Glorfindel probably could do it as well.


In the First Age only Luthien and Feanor out of the Elves could be expected to have the power to wield the ring. Luthien was even more powerful than Sauron. Feanor may not have had the power of Sauron, but he had greater skill and with the One Ring should have been able to do it.

Out of other characters Earendil could do it too. 

Then Third Age Glorfindel has a good chance as mentioned, because he had a big power upgrade from his Balrog slaying days and was now a match for Maiar like Olorin.

An outside shot is Hurin, because whilst he was deceived by Morgoth he was not  daunted by his eyes, which is an incredible feat. I seriously doubt Hurin could do it, but if any mortal could it would be him.


Nobody else in the First Age is as powerful as Galadriel and if she could not do it then either could they. Tolkien is quite firm and clear that Galadriel was the 2nd greatest of the Noldor and Feanor's rival.

Some people may not like it, but again it's quite clear Galadriel was greater than Fingolfin in all around power. Fingolfin was the best elvish warrior and a physical beast. This trait was passed onto his sons who are the 2nd and 3rd tallest Elves ever and remarkable warriors (though even they are weaker than the freakishly strong House of Hador). If Galadriel could not do it then either could Fingolfin. In a fight with swords no Elf is going to better Fingolfin, but Feanor, Luthien and Galadriel are all around more powerful. 

The confrontation between a wannabe Dark Lord and Sauron would be a spiritual one and Galadriel had the greater spiritual power.


Galadriel is the peak of Elvish power without the exceptions for Eru's purpose.

Feanor had a unique birth where he drained his mother's power completely, which left him as an anomaly amongst elves. His might is not normal for an elf.
Luthien is half divine and again this showed. 
The third exception is Earendil, though not an elf, he was the saviour of Elves and Men. Consequently he too has the abnormal strength.
The fourth exception is Glorfindel in the Third Age. He is a rebodied Elf sent back to fight against Sauron and has been raised up close to the power of the likes of Olorin unrestricted. 

Of course Luthien's line inherited a watered version of her divine power, but it's still enough to put them right at the top of other elves. 

Apart from Elwing/Luthien and Earendil; Elrond and Galadriel actually show the greatest feats of Elvish magic.

Galadriel creating the mist to cover Eorl and throwing down Dol Guldor are more impressive than any magic an elf does apart the ones mentioned.
Elrond causing a river to flood and take out the 9 gathered together, healing Frodo's Morgul splinter that was heading to his heart and without the ring creating the Enchanted Imladris are greater than anything else magical we see in the First Age. 

I have left out craftsmanship, because that was a combination of lore and magic. Feanor is obviously supreme in this, but his grandson Celebrimbor is the next best there is with Enerdhil rounding off the top 3.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 20, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> silmarils >>> Ring. and yeah. Feanor in and of himself was a pretty big abberation among the elves and judging him by the standards of any other elf isn't the best idea. his spirit was so powerful it literally ended up burning him apart from the inside.



His brother isn't too shabby either. 



Reddan said:


> No Tolkien gives no definitive answers, but says what is most likely.
> 
> 1. Gandalf is the only one that can be expected to use the ring to defeat Sauron.
> 2. Galadriel thought she could do it too.
> ...



So basically "based on what I personally believe" over what's actually in the source material then..

gotcha,

fuck your interpretation..it means nothing here.



Reddan said:


> In the First Age only Luthien and Feanor out of the Elves could be expected to have the power to wield the ring. Luthien was even more powerful than Sauron. Feanor may not have had the power of Sauron, but he had greater skill and with the One Ring should have been able to do it.



and yet you feel Saruman and Gandalf are above  Feanor 


Reddan said:


> Nobody else in the First Age is as powerful as Galadriel and if she could not do it then either could they. Tolkien is quite firm and clear that Galadriel was the 2nd greatest of the Noldor and Feanor's rival.



Statements not supported by feats

Galadriel is powerful, but Fingolfin could use her corpse as a sheath if he felt like it 


Reddan said:


> Galadriel creating the mist to cover Eorl and throwing down Dol Guldor are more impressive than any magic an elf does apart the ones mentioned.]



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Yupi (Jan 21, 2015)

It has been ages since I've read LOTR, but didn't it say somewhere that if Middle-Earth were to fall to the Lord of the Rings, Tom Bombadil would be the last to fall? I got that Tom Bombadil was only like this within his land, but he struck me as being something more than the crazy hermit he was made out to be.


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## Strange of Eternity (Jan 21, 2015)

Well, yeah, Bombadil is theorized to be either Eru himself, one of the Valar disguised or the spirit of Nature itself.


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## Reddan (Jan 21, 2015)

Yupi said:


> It has been ages since I've read LOTR, but didn't it say somewhere that if Middle-Earth were to fall to the Lord of the Rings, Tom Bombadil would be the last to fall? I got that Tom Bombadil was only like this within his land, but he struck me as being something more than the crazy hermit he was made out to be.



In the end they decide that not even Tom Bombadil will be able to stop Sauron once he conquers everything else. Tom Bombadil might be more than he seems, but he is certainly not Eru. I don't think Tolkien would be prepared to write about an incarnation. He does hint that to stop Morgoth, Eru might eventually have to entre the world, but he does not delve any further into it.

Glorfindel and Galdor both don't think Tom is a match for Sauron. I also think he is a strange case where the ring does nothing for him. I guess Bombadil is a reminder from Tolkien that no matter how wise or learned we are there are always going to be things that make no sense. Tom Bombadil is one of those things that does not make sense to us.
'Could that power be defied by Tom Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all things are conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First and then Night will come.'​
Though they are talking about Bombadil losing once Sauron has the whole world under his control and is putting all his legions and legions of servants into destroying Bombadil. A one on one confrontation might be very different.


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## Yupi (Jan 21, 2015)

That is the impression that I got too. However, how would he do if he had help himself? Also, I got the feeling that there was a restriction placed on his power. Again, this has to do with his personality. Didn't the LOTR (Fellowship of the Ring, I think) state that Tom Bombadil could not be affected by the One Ring?


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 21, 2015)

Tom has no restrictions to our knowledge, he's an enigma and deliberately created so, he is not supposed to be known.  He's immune to corruption from The One but not a match in a fight for Sauron or maybe it's a case they can't hurt each other so stalemate. We won't know.


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## AgentAAA (Jan 21, 2015)

Yupi said:


> That is the impression that I got too. However, how would he do if he had help himself? Also, I got the feeling that there was a restriction placed on his power. Again, this has to do with his personality. Didn't the LOTR (Fellowship of the Ring, I think) state that Tom Bombadil could not be affected by the One Ring?



didn't state it. outright showed him picking it up, playing with it, then handing it back to frodo while pretty much saying it was boring, if I recall correctly. The main reason they couldn't leave the ring with him was it would have so little hold on his mind he'd forget about it or lose it somewhere.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 21, 2015)

Yupi said:


> It has been ages since I've read LOTR, but didn't it say somewhere that if Middle-Earth were to fall to the Lord of the Rings, Tom Bombadil would be the last to fall? I got that Tom Bombadil was only like this within his land, but he struck me as being something more than the crazy hermit he was made out to be.



A lot of people think he is Aule, others Eru

there's much more proof that he is 



Tranquil Fury said:


> Tom has no restrictions to our knowledge, he's an enigma and deliberately created so, he is not supposed to be known.  He's immune to corruption from The One but not a match in a fight for Sauron or maybe it's a case they can't hurt each other so stalemate. We won't know.



I've always thought he was Lorien...and there is a shitton of proof for that between his love for growing things, to the singsong sleepy way he acts to the way he seems to banish darkness away and inspire sound sleep...to the connection with rivers and the like. Plus the ease with which he handled ghostly beings almost seemed to imply a type of authority over them.

Any way Glorfindale felt Bombadil would have fallen if Sauron won he'd of been screwed.



Yupi said:


> *That is the impression that I got too. However, how would he do if he had help himself?* Also, I got the feeling that there was a restriction placed on his power. Again, this has to do with his personality. Didn't the LOTR (Fellowship of the Ring, I think) state that Tom Bombadil could not be affected by the One Ring?



Nothing, if you go with the Tom's Valar then there's too much risk in his acting openly given the scale of damage they can cause.

if he';s just a nature sprite then...outside of his territory he's just another curiosity powerful and ancient but better to have Gandalf


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## AgentAAA (Jan 21, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Nothing, if you go with the Tom's Valar then there's too much risk in his acting openly given the scale of damage they can cause.
> 
> if he';s just a nature sprite then...outside of his territory he's just another curiosity powerful and ancient but better to have Gandalf



frankly I'm pretty sure he'd be terrible to have along for the quest partly because he'd either be grumpy not to be home or they just wouldn't be capable of convincing him to stop fucking around when the situation called for it.


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