# Gremmy and Kenpachi enter FTverse



## Aphelion (Apr 18, 2014)

I'm not at all up to date with FT, so apologies if this is a stomp in way or another, but it seems like it could be fun 

Gremmy can imagine anything he's been shown to be able to as well as any reasonable variation of it.

The whole verse attacks at once.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 18, 2014)

Death hax /gg.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 18, 2014)

Either one solo's.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 18, 2014)

Fairy   Law


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 18, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Either one solo's.


Someone from the council mkes them fall sleep.
Death hax /gg
Mystogan makes him fall asleep.
doranbolt gives them amnesia
Etc


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## Aphelion (Apr 18, 2014)

Where's Fairy Tails speed at?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 18, 2014)

Gremmy imagines that FT manga has ended


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## Aphelion (Apr 18, 2014)

Got something to say Zenith?


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## Katsuargi (Apr 18, 2014)

Forever mach 29 vs...what speed?

I know fairy tale isn't rocking massive speeds, but I think it's probably sufficient enough to not get blitzed and hax rape them.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 18, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> Got something to say Zenith?



Terrible shit.


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## Darth Niggatron (Apr 18, 2014)

Just came here to laugh at the OP.


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## Chad (Apr 18, 2014)

Mira uses take over on Gremmy and gains his imagination powers.


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## ShadowReaper (Apr 18, 2014)

Gremmy sends a meteor, everyone dies.
Kenpachi uses Bankai and still, everyone dies.


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## Catalyst75 (Apr 18, 2014)

It isn't even a fair fight.  Gremmy drops a meteor on all the Guilds and Zaraki goes Dohvakiin on all the dragons.


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## Chad (Apr 18, 2014)

None of you have read FT in depth to the point where you can understand how truly powerful they are.


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## Visa (Apr 18, 2014)

Honestly, look at all you guys, underestimating Fairy Tail. None of you even considered Fairy Tail's greatest asset that could make them pull the win: Nakama Power.


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## Lurko (Apr 18, 2014)

Kenny and Gremmy end it.


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## Sir Cool Blizzard (Apr 18, 2014)

Nakama power for the win.................Mangaphax 
Anyone who disagrees is a retard!!


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 18, 2014)

time stop/slow gg


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## Revan Reborn (Apr 18, 2014)

Kenpachi slashes


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## LineageCold (Apr 18, 2014)

Itachi solos both sides.


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## PopoTime (Apr 18, 2014)

Wendy and Chelia suck all the oxygen out of the air.

Without Oxygen, Gremmy imagines that he cant breathe and dies.

Kenpachi however, takes out Wendy and Chelia with a single slash.

Meanwhile Jellal drops a Cerma on Kenpachi, who slices it.

Oh wait, Makarov's prepped Fairy Law, and Zaraki is a lifeless husk.


Fanfiction over, yada yada yada


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## Gunstarvillain (Apr 18, 2014)

Crash magic sits kenpachi down and say he turns into tiny kenken still slashing away. All dragon associated attacks would be sufficient. Grem starting in character could die depending FL


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 18, 2014)

one of them is enough


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## Vicotex (Apr 19, 2014)

Fairy taleverse losses


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## FrozenFeathers (Apr 19, 2014)

If both the Gremmys hook up with one Fairy Tail woman, and she she pregnant, how do we determine which Gremmy is the father?


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## LightspeedLanza (Apr 19, 2014)

Acnologia is casual island level. Considering that there are millions of dragons, each of whom should be mountain to multimountain level, together with the hax of human wizards; I don't see these guys winning.


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## Revan Reborn (Apr 19, 2014)

All i see is city level mages with a couple island levels in damage, with pitiful speeds vs 2 large island levels without releasing bankai/volstandig and eye patch so potentially times 5-10 in power.  with less pitiful speeds( still pitiful)


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 19, 2014)

*sigh*

I really hate doing this but shit is getting retarded

FTverse has time stop/slow and characters with hax that ignores durability, so unless Bleach team is fast enough to blitz from the get to go (they aren't) they lose.

DC and durability isn't everything.


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## Sablés (Apr 19, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> *sigh*
> 
> I really hate doing this but shit is getting retarded
> 
> ...



What hax in FT ignores durability? Genuine curiosity here.

Also, BL Gremme imagines a meteor from the get go which is quite a bit beyond Zeref's reach.


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 19, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> What hax in FT ignores durability? Genuine curiosity here.



Petrification, poison, Nirvana, Meredy's link, the rocker's guy music, the card trick technically does 

Seyla's macro ignores durability, but not sure what the consensus on that shit is

death magic 

that's what came to mind (I really don't want to think about FT too much)



> Also, BL Gremme imagines a meteor from the get go which is quite a bit beyond Zeref's reach.



but it will get to Zeref's reach eventually, won't it?


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## Sablés (Apr 19, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> *Petrification,* poison, *Nirvana*, Meredy's link, the *rocker's guy music,* the card trick technically does
> 
> *Seyla's macro ignores durability,* but not sure what the consensus on that shit is
> 
> ...



Gonna be honest, I have no clue what half of that even is. Eh, fair enough on that point. 




> but it will get to Zeref's reach eventually, won't it?



I don't recall Zeref's timestopping something several kilometers wide or for very long. How would that even work?


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 19, 2014)

Orrrrr Zeref timestops, the time girl ages the meteor to dust.


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 19, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> I don't recall Zeref's timestopping something several kilometers wide or for very long. How would that even work?



I'm not sure myself tbh 

though still... even if they get hit by the meteor, the bleach team will die/get KO'd first, some time before the meteor reaches the surface, so it's technically a win for FT regardless


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## Sablés (Apr 19, 2014)

Accelerating time within a timestop...um okay.

And again, this is assuming Zeref's timestop (which was a few meters at best) would work against something 5 km wide.


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 19, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Orrrrr Zeref timestops, the time girl ages the meteor to dust.



Eh... she never aged something that big I think

she can age a portion of it though, yeah 

how big that portion is depends on how big the tree was compared to the meteor


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## Sablés (Apr 19, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> I'm not sure myself tbh
> 
> though still... even if they get hit by the meteor, the bleach team will die/get KO'd first, some time before the meteor reaches the surface, *so it's technically a win for FT regardless*



Not necessarily. Gremme erases his death which means FTverse can't actively kill him without surpassing the meteor's energy threshold, petrification would work but again, not necessarily kill and it disappears once Eve has been defeated IIRC. Meteor kills everything except Gremme.

Pretty sure the bolded would count as a double K.O given the meteor is a product of Gremme's imagination and it happens in a similar timeframe. What's the rule for that anyway?


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 19, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Not necessarily. Gremme erases his death which means FTverse can't actively kill him without surpassing the meteor's energy threshold, petrification would work but again, not necessarily kill and it disappears once Eve has been defeated IIRC. Meteor kills everything except Gremme.



I'm not sure Gremmy will have the opportunity to do everything you've listed before time stop is activated.

I mean, sure he has the speed advantage so first move is his, but to execute this strategy he will need to create the clone, create the meteor and then erase his death, all before Zeref activates the time stop. Does the speed advantage give him that opportunity?

And petrification isn't the only option.

f.e. Seyla's Macro that I've mentioned is akin to mind control. Though I'm dubious of it because it didn't work on Mira, supposedly because of her demon take over ability. I'm not sure what the battledome implication for those Mashima's shenanigans are, and don't really have the desire to think about that shit.

Still an option.



> Pretty sure the bolded would count as a double K.O given the meteor is a product of Gremme's imagination and it happens in a similar timeframe. What's the rule for that anyway?



Don't think there is a specific timeframe, or any consensus at all for that matter. 

It needs to happen relatively at the same time, but "relatively" doesn't only depend on objective elements of the situation, i.e. character's speed, but it's also subjective.

Personally I think that if they are able to take several actions after their opponents have been removed from the match and before their impending doom - then it's a win.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 19, 2014)

> f.e. Seyla's Macro that I've mentioned is akin to mind control. Though I'm dubious of it because it didn't work on Mira, supposedly because of her demon take over ability. I'm not sure what the battledome implication for that are, and don't really have the desire to think about that shit.


You need resistance for that. 

Also, pretty sure gremmy's erase death shit is for specific attacks.


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## Gunstarvillain (Apr 20, 2014)

Wasn't Rusty Rose materializing anything already doesn't he have the that block and send back anything gold shield? All that other lost magic hax


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 20, 2014)

In english please. Not google translate one but actual english.


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## LineageCold (Apr 20, 2014)

Gunstarvillain said:


> Wasn't Rusty Rose materializing anything already doesn't he have the that block and send back anything gold shield? All that other lost magic hax





DarkTorrent said:


> In english please. Not google translate one but actual english.


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## Gunstarvillain (Apr 20, 2014)

I didn't take that class. 
RustyRose period.


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 20, 2014)

Rusty Rose's reality warping is levels below what Gremmy has shown.


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## Alita (Apr 21, 2014)

I can actually see FT winning this due to lack of ranged attacks from Kenny and the fact that the meteor will take a long ass time to come down. (Acnologia and that other dragon could fly far away from impact and blast Kenny and gremmy with massive AOE roars they can't evade from afar.).


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## Aphelion (Apr 21, 2014)

There's no reason for why Gremmy shouldn't be able to materialize it closer to the ground.  It would have the same effect since he's capable of spawning it moving at high speeds from the get go.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 21, 2014)

Outerspace hax ftw


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## Lurko (Apr 21, 2014)

I can't see what Ft can do to them tbh.


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## Catalyst75 (Apr 21, 2014)

slayedigneel said:


> All i see is city level mages with a couple island levels in damage, with pitiful speeds vs 2 large island levels without releasing bankai/volstandig and eye patch so potentially times 5-10 in power.  with less pitiful speeds( still pitiful)



There's still the fact Rukia, Renji, Byakuya and Ichigo all reached Soul Society within the space of half a day from an area where it would take normal Shunpo a week to travel to Soul Society.

That'd put Bleach characters at their level and above them - including Gremmy and Zaraki's level - in the triple digits in terms of speed.

But either way, there really isn't anything Fairy Tail can do to Zaraki and Gremmy.  They'd slaughter the entire universe.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

> There's no reason for why Gremmy shouldn't be able to materialize it closer to the ground.


prove it  that he can I mean .. or would


> That'd put Bleach characters in the triple digits in terms of speed.


nope.jpg


> They'd slaughter the entire universe.


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## Iwandesu (Apr 22, 2014)

Catalyst75 said:


> There's still the fact Rukia, Renji, Byakuya and Ichigo all reached Soul Society within the space of half a day from an area where it would take normal Shunpo a week to travel to Soul Society.
> That'd put Bleach characters at their level and above them - including Gremmy and Zaraki's level - in the triple digits in terms of speed..


So, why exactly no one ever calculate this shit?  (just wondering)


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 22, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> So, why exactly no one ever calculate this shit?  (just wondering)



Because Bleach has to be forever mach 29~


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## lokoxDZz (Apr 22, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> So, why exactly no one ever calculate this shit?  (just wondering)



Timeframes,concrete statements,panels showing it, to help  to do some calcs would be a good thing you know?


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## Linkofone (Apr 22, 2014)

I bet within the next 4 years, Bleach will be Mach 30.


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## Kazu (Apr 22, 2014)

You're asking a lot from bleach, linko.


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## Iwandesu (Apr 22, 2014)

lokoxDZz said:


> Timeframes,concrete statements,panels showing it, to help  to do some calcs would be a good thing you know?


Like the flower dance from Byakuya?
i couldn't fully understand the last part but If you want i can try to Lurk the issues 
the timeframe should be good with 24-12 hours range ,no?
Is 1 week timeframe the real issue? We could use an actual 168 hours as HE while 112 hours (including a supposed rest time) as LE.
It would end with they being either 14 -7 times faster as high end and 9.3-4.6 as LE
Making bleach high tiers somewhere between Mach 406 and mach 124.
I dunno what you mean by concrete statements and such so yeah... If you don't mind


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

"casual (super long range) shunpo" is forever unquantifiable


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## Linkofone (Apr 22, 2014)

Kazu said:


> You're asking a lot from bleach, linko.



But think of all the disappointed Bleach fans everywhere Kazu.


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## Chad (Apr 22, 2014)

I'm sure the Soul King will show _some _form of omnipresence.


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## Revan Reborn (Apr 22, 2014)

Na he's gonna be absorbed by juha bach


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## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> prove it  that he can I mean .. or would




He's capable of materializing it very far away, logically it follows that he could materialize it closer to him as well.

Also since CIS is off by default it's safe to assume he would.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

ok



then prove that the speed it had in the manga all came from him/his materialization rather then from freefall or from a combination of the two


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## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

Shit doesn't ablate at freefall speed 

Even if it was a combination of the two, he would have had to contribute the large majority of the speed for it to reach ablation velocity.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

> Shit doesn't ablate at freefall speed


uh, why ? and 'freefall speed' isn't a constant number, it keeps increasing due to acceleration you know 


maybe you meant terminal velocity (that *is* a fixed number for one object), but terminal velocity for such a huge rock would likely be XX km/s, so ...






> *he would have had to contribute* *the large majority of the speed *for it to reach ablation velocity.


why ? do you have the mathematical equations to make this assessment ?


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## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

Umm..

Maybe I'm wrong.

But doesn't it, in general, take a fair bit of time to reach terminal velocity...like, at least 30 seconds?

The Meteor was on fire from the get go, so gravitational acceleration shouldn't be a issue.  Sure you could say that Gremmy actually conjured it much higher up in order to build speed, but I think Occam's razor favors my explanation.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

occams razor isn't a universal answer to everything 

and have you calced how much higher it would need to be ? 

remember, the freefall didn't necessarily give it all of its speed, but rather a part


question is how big said part is


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## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> occams razor isn't a universal answer to everything


No, but it applies here.



Fluttershy said:


> and have you calced how much higher it would need to be ?


Seems like it would be pretty easy to, but I don't think it's necessary because...



Fluttershy said:


> remember, the freefall didn't necessarily give it all of its speed, but rather a part
> 
> 
> question is how big said part is


the first time we see the thing it's already ablated, and relatively close to the ground.  If it had been created beforehand, surely Kenpachi would have noticed it, you can't exactly miss something that massive.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 22, 2014)

Actually, meteoroids/asteroids/meteors lose speed as it goes deeper into our atmosphere, because of friction and shit.
It loses momentum because its mass  gets lower due to intense heat, and some of its kinetic energy gets turned  to heat due to friction.


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## Fujita (Apr 22, 2014)

Okay 



Mass is 244404958095540 kg
Diameter is 5571.72 m so area is pi*(5571.72/2)^2 
Just going to take the density of air to be 1.225 kg/m3 
Drag coefficient for a sphere is 0.47 

So our terminal velocity is 18,482 m/s 

...................

I blame the fact that the meteor is ridiculously huge, myself  

On the plus side, going at 2 km/s and accelerating at 9.81 m/s^2 

If the meteor has 19 km to fall (that's the _diameter_ of the Seireitei, so a bit generous) before hitting the ground

That would take 9.5 seconds and give you a speed increase of 93 m/s, which is generally insignificant for something moving at several km/s to begin with

I mean, given that we first see it here 


*Spoiler*: __ 








Just breaching the clouds

And it's already on fire

Really don't see much of any support for the notion that he just created it way high up and then waited for it to reach ablation velocity


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

I concede to Fujitas math skillz


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

chugging everything to CIS

how convinient


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

^ indeed


EH makes Gremmy out to be the dumbest little shit in existence


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

he is a dumb little shit 

doesn't mean anything he doesn't do with his reality warping is CIS


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

him not imagining TOAA is CIS


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

TOAA? that's a bit much

he could have imagined himself to be the Soul King at least


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## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

Nah, the manga already does that  and a better term would probably be "batshit insane"

Seriously, the other SR were literally referring to him like an animal that needs to be locked up in a cage.  We shouldn't be surprised that he doesn't use his abilities to their fullest potential.  He's a little similar to Kenpachi in that way


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

well then why is that "CIS" and not his own limitation (of mind or w/e) that you can't just handwave away ?


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## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> he is a dumb little shit
> 
> doesn't mean anything he doesn't do with his reality warping is CIS



It could be CIS, or it could be just beyond his ability.  That's why sticking to on panel feats/reasonable variations of them, is the best option.  




> well then why is that "CIS" and not his own limitation (of mind or w/e) that you can't just handwave away ?


In battles removing CIS would just mean letting him used everything he's been shown to be able to imagine in the most effective way possible.  Everything else is just speculation.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

doesn't he have to *show* us that he is smart/cogent enough to do things a different way first ? 

before we apply CIS



otherwise we are putting a lot of faith in some retard


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

> relies one hundred percent on your ability to think



on your ability to imagine, first and foremost actually 

and that relies on creative thinking, not logical thinking

meaning you can actually be a dumb shit, but have good imagination


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

> In battles removing CIS would just mean letting him used *everything he's been shown to be able to imagine *in the most effective way possible. *Everything else is just speculation*.


YES

exactly 



soo why do we have a problem ?


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## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

The shit I'm talking about is pretty basic.

Things like cookie brains, and spawning a meteor closer to the ground, should be in his grasp.

Baseless speculation is one thing, not imposing arbitrary limitations on an ability simply because it hasn't been shown doing one thing specifically is another.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

> should be


that's the problem see 

best keep it to what we know


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## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

We do know though.

What you're saying is kind of like arguing that because Zommari only took control of byakuyas right arm, that there's no proof it could work on someones left arm


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

nah, Zommari took over multiple body parts and specifically stated he could also "take over" the head IIRC (I think )


meanwhile here you have a retard with the power of "imagination"  .. which means do ~anything .. which in the OBD means - do what you have shown


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## tkpirate (Apr 22, 2014)

well,dose removing CIS mean a character will have his usual intelligence,or dose it mean a character will have more intelligence than usual?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

> dose it mean a character will have more intelligence than usual?


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## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

Zommari only took over one of Byakuya's arms and legs as well as Rukia's head.  Though I guess that gives him control over all limbs so the analogy doesn't quite work, but you get my point.

If he can imagine something over there, he can imagine over here, if he can turn a body part into that, he can turn another body part into the same thing.


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

> still not understanding that reality warping can be limited by the effect it has on a character


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## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

^What the hell are you talking about?

No seriously.


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## Regicide (Apr 22, 2014)

If he can materialize a meteor kilometers in the air, why the fuck would he be unable to materialize it a micrometer above someone's head?

Mind you, the large range would if anything work in Gremmy's favor as to where he can create shit, not the other way around.


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

> What the hell are you talking about?
> 
> No seriously



that it can be limited to being *possibly* lethal to a character or *certainly* lethal

like with turning bones into cookies (possibly) and turning a brain into cookies (certainly)

whether reality can kill or cause death indirectly, like creating a meteor

that is what


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## Fujita (Apr 22, 2014)

DT

Really 

If you can stab somebody in the arm, there's nothing preventing you from stabbing somebody in the neck 

Even though one kills far more directly than the other 

This "can't kill directly" is metaphysical crap that has little to do with what Gremmy can actually do (transform innards into cookies and create minds) 

It's not a limit like "oh maybe he can't imagine somebody dead and they just auto-die" which would be a reasonable position to take


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## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> that it can be limited to being *possibly* lethal to a character or *certainly* lethal
> 
> like with turning bones into cookies (possibly) and turning a brain into cookies (certainly)
> 
> ...



If I was the kind of guy who kept a reaction image folder, I would be using it now.

Why the fuck would lethality have anything to do with your ability to transform matter.  Plus calling it "reality warping" is really too broad.  He just creates/transforms shit.  Does the risk of someone dying magically make his abilities less effective


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## tkpirate (Apr 22, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


>



lol.anyway it seems like what people are suggesting here by the removal of CIS is turning a retarded character into a intelligent one.it's like giving him more intelligence than usual and in a way increasing his power.


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

Fujita

stop compairing reality warping to conventional attacks

it does not work that way

Reality warping is a very dangerous to the plot ability. Good authors always set limitations to avoid misconceptions, bad authors... well bad writing is not a reason to assume that reality warping not doing something it could have is CIS. 

It is the ability that gets scrutinized the most. From all angles.

Conventional attacks have default limitations (DC, durability, speed), so does reality warping have it's own. Though, I'm not sure whether causing death directly is default one in OBD.



EntangledHive said:


> If I was the kind of guy who kept a reaction image folder, I would be using it now.
> 
> Why the fuck would lethality have anything to do with your ability to transform matter.   He just creates/transforms shit.  Does the risk of someone dying magically make his abilities less effective



so you're implying that he's powers are matter manipulation? 



> Plus calling it "reality warping" is really too broad.



yeah, because turning your imagination into reality is not reality warping


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## LazyWaka (Apr 22, 2014)

Isn't the considered limitation for how his ability works on people is that he needs to make physical contact with them or something?


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## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

Yes, because that's all he's been shown to do.  Create stuff and transmute preexisting matter.  He's not stopping time, or creating magic force fields, or messing with the laws of physics.  There has yet to be any absolutes in his abilities.  If he was a true reality warper, he would just say "I've won" and be done with it.

He's pretty much Doctor Manhattan lite.

I still have no idea where you got this delusion that mortality is some how an obstacle for characters like this, reality warper or not.



LazyWaka said:


> Isn't the considered limitation for how his ability works on people is that he needs to make physical contact with them or something?


That was kind of debunked when he continued transforming Yachiru's bones after he released his grip.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

Regicide said:


> If he can materialize a meteor kilometers in the air, why the fuck would he be unable to materialize it a micrometer above someone's head?


why stop at micrometer ? why not a nanometer or ~Plancks length ?  does Gremmy know what a micrometer is ? can he imagine it ? can he imagine a meteor that low or does he need the object to be like it generally is in reality for it to materialize (as in - meteors usually come from high above, so when he thinks _meteor_ - it falls down from a big altitude) ? do we know ? should we be guessing this instead of going with what's on panel ?

even if he can - what is going to make him do that instead of doing what he did in the manga ? CIS ? Character Induced Stupidity ? who exactly induced this "stupidity" on him ? maybe noone did and he's just like that  or maybe that's how his powers work


> if he can turn a body part into that, he can turn another body part into the same thing.


nah, if he can turn one bone into cookie then he can turn another bone into a cookie  .. nothing about any brains 





EntangledHive said:


> That was kind of debunked when he continued transforming Yachiru's bones after he released his grip.


wait, that's it ? wouldn't that just mean that he had to make contact at least once first ? (sort of establish a connection) and after that he can keep affecting the person

I'm really getting sick of Gremmy 


hope Kenny wastes him soon


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## Darth Niggatron (Apr 22, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> Yes, because that's all he's been shown to do.  Create stuff and transmute preexisting matter.  He's not stopping time, or creating magic force fields, or messing with the laws of physics.  There has yet to be any absolutes in his abilities.  If he was a true reality warper, he would just say "I've won" and be done with it.
> 
> He's pretty much Doctor Manhattan lite.
> 
> I still have no idea where you got this delusion that mortality is some how an obstacle for characters like this, reality warper or not.



Oh, wow. Do you even know what reality warping is?
Anyway, it's amusing to see DT and Flutter stating the exact same things I was saying in the Onoki thread. Only thing is that in my case, I was gangbanged and shot down.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

^ (use bro), you are a trash mob, DT is a mid-dungeon boss and I'm the final raid boss


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## Fujita (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> stop compairing reality warping to conventional attacks
> 
> it does not work that way
> 
> ...



…….no, not really 

If a character doesn't do something that you might think is possible with their power set, but they themselves never directly shown the ability to do it, that's a limit to the ability. (Gremmy apparently failing to turn Kenpachi into cookies probably falls here, given Bleach's precedent for strength flat out overruling hax abilities in some instances.)

But?

If a character doesn't do something that actually _is_ possible _with the powers that they've actually shown_, but doesn't because it's "very dangerous to the plot" ? 

That is CIS/PIS

That is the textbook definition of CIS/PIS

The competence of the author doesn't enter into the equation. There's either evidence for a character being able to do something or there isn't. If the evidence exists, but the character doesn't do it, that's not a limit to the ability, that's PIS.

Gremmy, for example, has both shown an ability to affect somebody's body directly and the ability to work with things on the brain's order of complexity 

But that he's failed to do any of that against Kenpachi seems somewhat damning


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

> nah, if he can turn one bone into cookie then he can turn another bone into a cookie  .. nothing about any brains


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> Yes, because that's all he's been shown to do.  Create stuff and transmute preexisting matter.  He's not stopping time, or creating magic force fields, or messing with the laws of physics.  There has yet to be any absolutes in his abilities.  If he was a true reality warper, he would just say "I've won" and be done with it.



Firstly, you do realize that you are shotting down your own arguement that Gremmy can turn brains into cookies, right? Because if his ability is transmutation/matter manipulation then it's limited by what kind of matter he turned into what kind of matter. Meaning, if he can turn iron into gold that does not mean he turn platinum into gold. 

Secondly, what is reality warping and what limitations it may have is really hard for you to grasp, isn't it? Any ability can be replicated via reality warping. To find out whether the effect was achieved via reality warping or by any other means you just need to look at how it was achieved or how the ability itself was described. If it was done via imagining and then turned into reality - then that's reality warping.

So no, being a reality warper does not neccesarily mean that the character can do many crazy things. Reality warping can be limited to one function, f.e. creating swords from thin air, or overwritting your death like Danzo's Izanagi. Does not make it any less of reality warping than changing the laws of the universe.



> I still have no idea where you got this delusion that mortality is some how an obstacle for characters like this, reality warper or not.



Yeah.. cuz it's not like it is a fairly common limitation on reality warping in fiction or anything. As far as low-mid tier reality warping goes anyway.

Should I start with examples? 



			
				Bang said:
			
		

> Anyway, it's amusing to see DT and Flutter stating the exact same things I was saying in the Onoki thread. Only thing is that in my case, I was gangbanged and shot down.



I was away


----------



## Regicide (Apr 22, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> why stop at micrometer ?


The point is that the large range at which he materializes the meteor does not work against him.

It serves to demonstrate the largest distance he's been shown to be capable of affecting shit, not this bullshit about Gremmy requiring feats of spawning things closer before we assume that he can (which he also has feats of, unless we're to arbitrarily assume that the meteor is an exception for no real reason).


Fluttershy said:


> so when he thinks _meteor_ - it falls down from a big altitude) ? do we know ? should we be guessing this instead of going with what's on panel ?


The other shit he's materialized didn't conform to actual constraints as to how they naturally appear, why the fuck would the meteor be any exception?


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> Firstly, you do realize that you are shotting down your own arguement that Gremmy can turn brains into cookies, right? Because if his ability is transmutation/matter manipulation then it's limited by what kind of matter he turned into what kind of matter. Meaning, if he can turn iron into gold that does not mean he turn platinum into gold.


Funny 
His powers work through Yhwach's Quincy magic, not science.  If you wanna be difficult you could argue that magic is reality warping, but in that case you might as well argue that everything in fiction that goes against the laws of physics is reality warping.  Unless the material has some specific property that allows it to resist transmutation, it's fair game.



> Secondly, what is reality warping and what limitations it may have is really hard for you to grasp, isn't it? Any ability can be replicated via reality warping. To find out whether the effect was achieved via reality warping or by any other means you just need to look at how it was achieved or how the ability itself described. If it was done via imagining and then turned into reality - then that's reality warping.


You could say that if you care that much about stupid semantics, which I don't.  I'll humor you though, he's a reality warper who's limited to materialization and transmutation, better?






> Yeah.. cuz it's not like it is a fairly common limitation on reality warping in fiction or anything. As far as low-mid tier reality warping goes anyway.


You're confused.  This is not about whether or not Gremmy can imagine someone dead and they die just because.  This is about whether Gremmy can mess with someone physically and cause their death as a result.  Very different things.

Shit, this is getting repetitive.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

it seems we are not really understanding each other... again 



Fujita said:


> Gremmy, for example, has both shown an ability to affect somebody's body directly and the ability to work with things on the brain's order of complexity



but has he shown the ability to affect the reality to the extent where a character immidietly dies, or only to an extent where the chances of character's death are increased exceptionally? 

I'm looking at this from this angle. Not only the direct one like you do. Because reality warping is an ability that affects/changes reality to a certain extent, so it is limited by the extent it was shown to affect reality. To me - making someone a cripple and killing someone are different extents of affecting that character's "reality". Do you understand my position now?



> But that he's failed to do any of that against Kenpachi seems somewhat damning



yeah.. and strangely enough, me along with other Nardo supporters, are not quick enough to assume that Kubo's writting has become so terrible that he just spent several shitty-paced chapters describing a battle that could have been over in one panel. 

Unlike Bleach supporters do.


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

Go home DT, you're drunk.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

such arguement

wow


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

All I'll say is:

Stop getting hung up on semantics, and don't try to make connections where there are none.

That's simplest way I can address the insanity you posted.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

So basically you don't have an actual counter arguement and are resorting to calling mine as "getting tangled up in semantics" and "insanity"

alrighty


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

You're basically saying that he could turn a brain into cookies if it was in a jar, but not if it's in someones head, because for some fucking reason, the effects that that action will have somehow determine whether or not the action is doable in the first place.

I can't quite argue with something that doesn't have a shred of logic to support it in the first place.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

Reality warping is an ability that affects reality to a certain extent.

yes or no?


----------



## Katsuargi (Apr 22, 2014)

So. Not reading through 6 pages of dick waving.

Are we just letting Gremmy get away with anything he's shown the power and scope to do?

And anyone with greater "power" than him is immune to cookies and related abilities until demonstrated otherwise?


----------



## Sablés (Apr 22, 2014)

Katsuargi said:


> So. Not reading through 6 pages of dick waving.
> 
> Are we just letting Gremmy get away with anything he's shown the power and scope to do?
> 
> And anyone with greater "power" than him is immune to cookies and related abilities until demonstrated otherwise?



Until it's actually been shown on-panel or given a reason to doubt the efficacy of his "cookiefication". The answer is no.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 22, 2014)

We should really stop using Gremmy, too much NLF


----------



## Katsuargi (Apr 22, 2014)

Does Aizen's statement about abilities being a "Reiatsu clash" or whatever not apply?


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> Reality warping is an ability that affects reality to a certain extent.
> 
> yes or no?


Please direct me to the scan where it is stated that Gremmy's abilty to create is limited by how much change his creations cause in reality.  Oh you can't find it?  I guess your hypothesis is bunk then.

The result has no effect on the preceding action.  You could press a switch that turns on a light, or press the same type of switch that sets off a bomb killing dozens of people.  Both switches are equally easy to press.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> Please direct me to the scan where it is stated that Gremmy's abilties are limited by the amount of change they cause on reality.



that is as retarded as demanding a scan where it is stated that Yata mirror is limited to blocking conventional attacks on the DC level of Kirin 



> The result has no effect on the preceding action.  You could press a switch that turns on a light, or press the same type of switch that sets of a bomb killing dozens of people.  Both switches are equally easy to press.



You've already made it obvious that the simple concept of abilities being limited by what kind of effect they've shown to have is beyond you. No need to beat a dead horse over and over.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Apr 22, 2014)

Gremmy vs Mem Aleph


----------



## Sablés (Apr 22, 2014)

Katsuargi said:


> Does Aizen's statement about abilities being a "Reiatsu clash" or whatever not apply?



Possibly. I don't see why that would be relevant regardless since that quirk is a property of reiatsu.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Apr 22, 2014)

I sense more Gremmy vs being created after reading bleach spoilers


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2014)

maybe I'll make Gremmy vs Twilight Sparkle


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Possibly. I don't see why that would be relevant regardless since that quirk is a property of reiatsu.



that would mean that his ability does not work on any character who's reiatsu is = or > Kenpachi thanks to RoE


----------



## Sablés (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> that would mean that his ability does not work on any character who'se reiatsu is = or > Kenpachi thanks to RoE



Show me the scans were chakra and Haki have been used to literally crush the life out of those weaker  or completely nullify their techniques


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

> that is as retarded as demanding a scan where it is stated that Yata mirror is limited to blocking conventional attacks on the DC level of Kirin


We're talking about the mechanics of an ability here, not limits of DC.  Unless you can provide me with on panel evidence that his ability is limited in this (oddly)specific way, then neither I or anyone else have any reason to take you seriously. 



> You've already made it obvious that the simple concept of abilities being limited by what kind of effect they've shown to have is beyond you. No need to beat a dead horse over and over.



What you're arguing is not a concept, it's fan fiction based on some misunderstanding of the word reality warping, and applying your presuppositions of what a "reality warper" is supposed to be on Gremmy.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Show me the scans were chakra and Haki have been used to literally crush the life out of those weaker  or completely nullify their techniques



I'm sorry, but what does other HST verses have to do with this?

It's a specific limit that was put by the author on those abilities. So whould we start pretending that they do not exist?

Also, we are accepting one part of reiatsu mechanics. Why should we not accept the other one? Because one is helpful, the other is not?


----------



## Fujita (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> but has he shown the ability to affect the reality to the extent where a character immidietly dies, or only to an extent where the chances of character's death are increased exceptionally?
> 
> I'm looking at this from this angle. Not only the direct one like you do. Because reality warping is an ability that affects/changes reality to a certain extent, so it is limited by the extent it was shown to affect reality. To me - making someone a cripple and killing someone are different extents of affecting that character's "reality". Do you understand my position now?



A reality warper isn't limited by the entire causal chain of what they do 

There's a world of difference between 
- ending the world
- flipping the switch on a machine that ends the world 
- kicking a marble that triggers a Rube Goldberg machine that flips the switch on the machine that ends the world 

So where do you draw the line on what a reality warper could do? If they can't directly affect the world, is flipping the switch out of their grasp? 

I think the only non-arbitrary line you could draw is the same line you'd draw for any other ability (physical strength, telekinesis, etc): are they capable of the first step? 

If the implications for that first step are that a character dies, then so be it. How does the fact that somebody might die if a given bit of matter was transformed actually make it harder to transform? The person's life isn't some kind of force acting against it, and I think the appeal to causality either leaves you with an infinite chain of causes (because there's no real reason that the third thing caused is somehow exempt when the second isn't) or saying that the only relevant question is whether or not the reality warper can directly cause the first thing in the sequence. 

Not to mention that you're kind of using your pet method of looking at reality warping here, one that may or may not apply to Gremmy. Why is the "person" the division of reality that we're interested in? Why not just "the brain" ? Or why not "the person's entire family" ?


----------



## Sablés (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> I'm sorry, but what does other HST verses have to do with this?
> 
> It's a specific limit that was put by the author on those abilities. So whould we start pretending that they do not exist?
> 
> Also, we are accepting one part of reiatsu mechanics. Why should we not accept the other one? Because one is helpful, the other is not?



Yes, a limit placed on an ability of  the specific series. Just as those with Logia intangibility can be grabbed by those with Haki. We clearly don't equalize that because it is a property of the latter. IIRC,  the purpose of RoE, was to remove any extreme advantage or disadvantage a verse/character might have simply due to it's superior/inferior energy system

Not that you should be the one to speak of double standards. Should we equalize reiatsu in this manner, this would mean hax of all nature would be ineffective to Bleach characters yet you prattled on about the efficacy of hax such as Timestop/petrification in this thread. Which is it?


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> We're talking about the mechanics of an ability here, not limits of DC.  Unless you can provide me with on panel evidence that his ability is limited in this (oddly)specific way, then neither I or anyone else have any reason to take you seriously.



and I've compared your retarded demand of providing scans that prove that reality warping is limited by extents it affects reality to demanding scans that prove Yata mirror being limited to only blocking conventional attacks of Kirin's caliber

both involve mechanics of a certain ability and being limited in a specific way 



> What you're arguing is not a concept, it's fan fiction based on some misunderstanding of the word reality warping, and applying your presuppositions of what a "reality warper" is supposed to be on Gremmy.



that is default meaning of reality warping that is used in OBD, not mine presuppositions or fan fiction

so... again...

reality warping is an ability that affects reality to a certain extent

YES or NO?

can you answer this simple question?


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 22, 2014)

Gremmy is a reality warper.


----------



## LazyWaka (Apr 22, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Yes, a limit placed on an ability of  the specific series. *Just as those with Logia intangibility can be grabbed by those with Haki. We clearly don't equalize that because it is a property of the latter.* IIRC,  the purpose of RoE, was to remove any extreme advantage or disadvantage a verse/character might have simply due to it's superior/inferior energy system



Not going to get drawn into this, but that example is off.

Via equalization other series do get Haki since it is a power that everyone in OP has. But the ability to grapple with logia's is a specific haki technique that one doesn't just automatically get to use just because they have haki, where as the resistance of certain abilities in bleach can be granted simply by virtue of having a higher reiatsu level than them, not by some specific Reiatsu technique that must be trained.

Whether or not this applies with gremmy's ability I want NO part of.


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> and I've compared your retarded demand of providing scans that prove that reality warping is limited by extents it affects reality to demanding scans that prove Yata mirror being limited to only blocking conventional attacks of Kirin's caliber
> 
> both involve mechanics of a certain ability and being limited in a specific way


The difference is the limitation you've set up for Gremmy comes right out of your ass.

But, you're half way there.  Now think for a second.

Reality warping affects reality, yes.  But it's one action.  If you create a tsar bomba in the middle of a city with reality warping and detonate it, the destruction is not a direct result of the reality warping, but of the explosion.  Gremmy's ability ends whenever what he imagines is brought into reality, then it's just reality and will have the same effects on the world as a non reality warped object would.  So the act of turning someones brains into cookies, as far as this ability is concerned, it's not "killing" but just turning physical material into cookies.  The result of said action will be death in most cases, but that comes after the ability has already ended.




> that is default meaning of reality warping that is used in OBD, not mine presuppositions or fan fiction


It's a broad concept, and you're misunderstanding it.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Yes, a limit placed on an ability of  the specific series. Just as those with Logia intangibility can be grabbed by those with Haki. We clearly don't equalize that because it is a property of the latter. IIRC,  the purpose of RoE, was to remove any advantage or disadvantage a verse might have simply due to it's superior/inferior energy system



um... we don't equalize haki because it's not a generaic shounen energy system

not because haki users can grab logias



> Not that you should be the one to speak of double standards. Should we equalize reiatsu in this manner, this would mean hax of all nature would be ineffective to Bleach characters yet you prattled on about the efficacy of hax such as Timestop/petrification in this thread. Which is it?



no they won't

because those abilities from other fictions do not have such a limitation

And we have been doing this with lolreiatsu crush for a long time, i.e. reiatsu crush only works on fodders because non-fodders have more reiatsu thanks to RoE. Why are other abilities different?



Fujita said:


> A reality warper isn't limited by the entire causal chain of what they do
> 
> There's a world of difference between
> - ending the world
> ...



you are using some reverse logic here

if a reality warper can end the world via his ability, then he can flip a switch that does the same

one is a higher tier of affecting the reality than the other

in this situation it's the opposite

Gremmy has shown to be able to flip a switch that could or could not lead to death with his reality warping ability, and you are saying that he can do the same without flipping any switches

basically because he has shown a lower tier of reality warping he can do slightly higher



> I think the only non-arbitrary line you could draw is the same line you'd draw for any other ability (physical strength, telekinesis, etc): are they capable of the first step?
> 
> If the implications for that first step are that a character dies, then so be it. How does the fact that somebody might die if a given bit of matter was transformed actually make it harder to transform? The person's life isn't some kind of force acting against it, and I think the appeal to causality either leaves you with an infinite chain of causes (because there's no real reason that the third thing caused is somehow exempt when the second isn't) or saying that the only relevant question is whether or not the reality warper can directly cause the first thing in the sequence.



You are looking at this as simply transforming something to something, not from the position of affecting the reality, when that actually should be the priority.

Making someone a cripple with cookies for bones and killing someone by making his heart a cookie are different extents of affecting the reality

yes or no?



> Not to mention that you're kind of using your pet method of looking at reality warping here, one that may or may not apply to Gremmy. Why is the "person" the division of reality that we're interested in? Why not just "the brain" ? Or why not "the person's entire family" ?



Because we are dealing with character vs character macthes, so we are only interested in everything that affects the match?


----------



## Fujita (Apr 22, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> IIRC,  the purpose of RoE, was to remove any extreme advantage or disadvantage a verse/character might have simply due to it's superior/inferior energy system



I think it's more along the lines of 
a) ensure that energy system mechanics that only work on fodder in-verse don't provide some sort of insta-win against characters who should by all rights be strong enough to avoid this (Nen baptism, etc) 
b) let characters use energy manipulation abilities on characters with different energy systems 

But yeah


----------



## Regicide (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> And we have been doing this with lolreiatsu crush for a long time, i.e. reiatsu crush only works on fodders because non-fodders have more reiatsu thanks to RoE. Why are other abilities different?


Technically, it works on the strongest person that's shown to be affected by it.

Which, as far as I'm aware, basically means those on base Aizen's level being capable of reiatsu crushing Grimmjow tier fuckers.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 22, 2014)

Base aizen actually reiatsu crushed the respira guy.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> The difference is the limitation you've set up for Gremmy comes right out of your ass.
> 
> But, you're half way there.  Now think for a second.
> 
> ...



So basically reality warping but not being limited by the extent it affects the reality 

and why should we see it that way?


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

Try reading it again a few more times.  I don't think I can make it any more clear.

Also..

>we


You're the only one here pushing this.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> Try reading it again a few more times.  I don't think I can make it any more clear.



oh it was very clear

this:



> So the act of turning someones brains into cookies, as far as this ability is concerned, it's not "killing" but just turning physical material into cookies.



means that you are indeed pushing for Gremmy's ability to be some kind of reality warping in a vacuum which ignores the extents it affects reality



> Also..
> 
> >we
> 
> ...



pretty sure that several people already insisted on going by what Gremmy has actually shown to do in all of the different threads there've been


----------



## Regicide (Apr 22, 2014)

What are you even arguing about?


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> oh it was very clear
> 
> this:
> 
> ...


Flutter and the others are arguing against it for far less convoluted reasons.  No one but you cares about the whole "affect on reality" nonsense.

As for your objection, just remember, cause and effect is a thing.  Materialization is just a single action.  A city would not be reality warped into smithereens because of the nuke I mentioned, it would just destroyed by the nuke.


----------



## Fujita (Apr 22, 2014)

@Regi

Whether Gremmy can turn somebody's brain to cookies





DarkTorrent said:


> you are using some reverse logic here
> 
> if a reality warper can end the world via his ability, then he can flip a switch that does the same
> 
> ...



Admittedly, the switch analogy has its problems. Mainly because there's little functional difference between turning somebody's entire body into cookies and directly killing them. And then turning the heart to cookies is a lot more like flipping a switch, while turning the brain to cookies is more like direct killing. We'll get bogged down with that if we continue along those lines  



> You are looking at this as simply transforming something to something, not from the position of affecting the reality, when that actually should be the priority.



You're sticking a person's being alive or dead into the difficulty of transforming something like there's some grand universal karma meter that makes it harder to kill people 

This. Doesn't. Exist. (unless there's something like this specific to an ability ofc) 

Gremmy can 
- affect somebody's body directly 
- affect things with brain level complexity 

Both of which are things that yes, you need proof for, because they're not necessarily things a given reality warper is capable of 

But it's really kind of nonsensical to extend the question of "do they have the reach and ability to affect this given amount of matter?" to the really fucking nebulous question "how much will reality as a whole change if they affect this given amount of matter?" 

I mean, do we weigh all the consequences of the rest of their lives being gone against the consequences of leaving them crippled for life? To me, that seems to be the sort of consideration you're making when you say that affecting somebody's life requires more changes to reality than just affecting some inert piece of matter. 

It's unquantifiable, metaphysical speculation. 



> Making someone a cripple with cookies for bones and killing someone by making his heart a cookie are different extents of affecting the reality
> 
> yes or no?



No 



> Because we are dealing with character vs character macthes, so we are only interested in everything that affects the match?



That doesn't get you out of my question of why you can't just select the brain's as the pertinent subdivision of reality as a whole, given that that's… the only thing that's getting directly affected here.


----------



## Sablés (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> um... we don't equalize haki because it's not a generaic shounen energy system
> 
> not because haki users can grab logias



Haki is a generic energy system. However it has properties specific to itself. I.e training to master a specific aspect of it (CoO etc)

Though as detailed by Waka, it was a poor example regardless.





> no they won't
> 
> because those abilities from other fictions do not have such a limitation
> 
> And we have been doing this with lolreiatsu crush for a long time, i.e. reiatsu crush only works on fodders because non-fodders have more reiatsu thanks to RoE. Why are other abilities different?



Going back to my earlier point and Fujita's explanation



> IIRC, the purpose of RoE, was to remove any extreme advantage or disadvantage a verse/character might have simply due to it's superior/inferior energy system





> a) ensure that energy system mechanics that only work on fodder in-verse don't provide some sort of insta-win against characters who should by all rights be strong enough to avoid this (Nen baptism, etc)
> b) let characters use energy manipulation abilities on characters with different energy systems



Basically, granting a verse the ability to use all their strengths  without deterrence from verse restrictions. If you accept that Bleach hax are restricted by reiatsu, then you must also accept the reverse, characters whose energy systems have been equalized by reiatsu will share that weakness. Just as Genjutsu can only affect those with chakra, that is a restriction placed by the verse.

RoE was created for the sole purpose of *convenience *so the answer to this.



> Why should we not accept the other one? Because one is helpful, the other is not?



is yes,

EDIT: Great, now I'm confusing myself. What I'm trying to say is that RoE allows characters to fight on a level-playing field in spite of extraneous verse restriction that would otherwise be illogical or make a match lopsided while at the same time, still maintaining an integral aspect of the characters in question's, ability. A.K.A convenience


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> Flutter and the others are arguing against it for far less convoluted reasons.



they are arguing that Gremmy's ability has limitation. The very same thing I'm arguing.  



> No one but you cares about the whole "affect on reality" nonsense.



you've already made it clear that the concept of reality warping being limited by extents it affects the reality is "nonsense" to you

no need to repeat it over and over 



> As for your objection, just remember, cause and effect is a thing.  Materialization is just a single action.  A city would not be reality warped into smithereens because of the nuke I mentioned, it would just destroyed by the nuke.



you're example does not make sense in the current situation

Gremmy made a character's bones into cookies

that action (cause) only cripples (effect)

you are making an arguement because that he did that it means he can make someone's heart into cookies

an action (cause) that actually kill ( *entirely different* effect)

so maybe you should listen to yourself, both cause and *effect* are a thing


----------



## Regicide (Apr 22, 2014)

Fujita said:


> @Regi
> 
> Whether Gremmy can turn somebody's brain to cookies


What.



How the hell is that even a discussion? He's shown the capability of turning specific parts of the body into cookies or whatever the fuck he feels like at the given moment, why would the brain be any different from bones?


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

> they are arguing that Gremmy's ability has limitation. The very same thing I'm arguing.


The conclusion is the same, but the way you get there is vastly different.



> you've already made it clear that the concept of reality warping being limited by extents it affects the reality is "nonsense" to you


And you've continuously failed to prove that it isn't.



> you're example does not make sense in the current situation
> 
> Gremmy made a character's bones into cookies
> 
> ...



I'm glad Fujita brought this up, I was hesitant to because I wasn't sure if this was the point you were getting at.  Scientifically speaking, there is nothing particularly special about death, it's not some anomaly that can't be understood.  There is no mystic force that makes it harder cause death.

Once the reality warping is complete(ie. once gremmy transforms the brain matter), it's over, done, finished, no more.  Whatever happens after that point is just a secondary effect of the reality warping.  So this supposed limit set by the amount of action caused as a result of the reality warping doesn't mean anything.

You also have to consider that Gremmy was capable of dropping a metor that would have destroyed countless lives, so it would have had far more of an "affect on reality" then simply turning Kenny's brain to cookies.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

Fujita said:


> Admittedly, the switch analogy has its problems. Mainly because there's little functional difference between turning somebody's entire body into cookies and directly killing them. And then turning the heart to cookies is a lot more like flipping a switch, while turning the brain to cookies is more like direct killing. We'll get bogged down with that if we continue along those lines



at least we agree on something 



> You're sticking a person's being alive or dead into the difficulty of transforming something like there's some grand universal karma meter that makes it harder to kill people
> 
> This. Doesn't. Exist. (unless there's something like this specific to an ability ofc)



no, I'm sticking a person's being alive or not into the difficulty of reality warping something, because he isn't simply transforming something, he is not a matter manipulator/transmuter, he is changing the reality



> Gremmy can
> - affect somebody's body directly
> - affect things with brain level complexity
> 
> ...



spoken like a true physics major 

But reality is not only amount of matter, i.e. physical component, it also has metaphysical components. So why should we ignore them?

Let me make an example with another ability - changing the past.

it is limited by the extent the ability can change the past, yea?

so... if a character used that ability and destroyed a vase that has little to no importance, does that mean he can do pretty much the same and destroy a vase, that was considered a holy object at the time?



> No



thought so 

but can they be seen as different extents of affecting the reality?



> That doesn't get you out of my question of why you can't just select the brain's as the pertinent subdivision of reality as a whole, given that that's… the only thing that's getting directly affected here.



because it's not an isolated system of some kind, affecting it - affects the reality as a whole


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Apr 22, 2014)

What are you people even arguing...


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

> And you've continuously failed to prove that it isn't.



I'm sorry but since when the burden of proof is one me?

You are the one that is arguing that it's a completely different type of reality warping then the typical one and does not have the same limitations. Without providing proof.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Apr 22, 2014)

No seriously what
Yes, we all know Gremmy must suffer from some sort of mental retardation for not use his powers like someone with a functional brain would use
But if he can turn someone bones into cookies,_ he can do the same with the brain_.


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

>typical



There is not a set standard for reality warping, it's as case by case as it gets.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> >typical
> 
> 
> 
> There is not a set standard for reality warping, it's as case by case as it gets.



that is not proof that Gremmy's reality warping works the way you say it does

and since you've said that there are different types of reality warping or whatever does that mean that there is a posibility Gremmy's reality warping may be actually different from what you are thinking and Gremmy did not one shot Kenpachi not because of CIS, but because he couldn't do it due to limitations?


----------



## Tapion (Apr 22, 2014)

Why wouldn't gremmy be able to alter a specific part of the body other than bones again?


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

because that can be seen as changing the reality to a greater degree


----------



## Regicide (Apr 22, 2014)

How does that..

Seriously, what?


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

reality warping affects the reality to a certain extent, so it's limited by the extent it can affect the reality

killing someone or making someone a cripple are different extents of affecting the reality

or at least it can be seen that way


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> that is not proof that Gremmy's reality warping works the way you say it does
> 
> and since you've said that there are different types of reality warping or whatever does that mean that there is a posibility Gremmy's reality warping may be actually different from what you are thinking and Gremmy did not one shot Kenpachi not because of CIS, but because he couldn't do it due to limitations?



I don't need to prove anything, everything I've said about Gremmy's power is backed by scans.

You've created this imaginary norm for reality warping where the resulting effects of the action automatically determine if the action is possible in the first place.




> killing someone or making someone a cripple are different extents of affecting the reality



And dropping a big fucking meteor that could kill tons of people is a affecting reality to a much greater extent, yet he seemed to manage that just fine.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> I don't need to prove anything, everything I've said about Gremmy's power is backed by scans.



then show them

show me the scans where it's stated that Gremmy ability ignores the effect it has on reality 

and everything else what you've said about the mechanics of the ability



> You've created this imaginary norm for reality warping where the resulting effects of the action automatically determine if the action is possible in the first place.



you haven't answered my question



> And dropping a big fucking meteor that could kill tons of people is a affecting reality to a much greater extent, yet he seemed to manage that just fine.



*could* is a key word here

unlike with turning the heart into cookies, death is a possible outcome, not a certain one


----------



## Fujita (Apr 22, 2014)

[sp]

[/sp]



DarkTorrent said:


> no, I'm sticking a person's being alive or not into the difficulty of reality warping something, because he isn't simply transforming something, he is not a matter manipulator/transmuter, he is changing the reality



Semantics. He's changing something into something else. The mechanism doesn't, in this instance, give you license to bring in a whole set of made up concerns about what that entails. 



> spoken like a true physics major
> 
> But reality is not only amount of matter, i.e. physical component, it also has metaphysical components. So why should we ignore them?



We should ignore them because they're wholly subjective and there's no actual reason for them to interfere beyond the sheer "what if?" factor 

I mean
> "Has he ever reality warped somebody with as strong dreams as this guy?"
> "I guess he could reality warp some random dude but he couldn't do that to Hitler"
> "I think reality warping people with strong imaginations is harder because their imaginations add another component and we should bump it up a tier for that reason" 

And these change completely depending on your philosophy. I mean, can I bring the Christian concept of souls into this or do we all need to play by materialist rules? 

That, and they're nearly impossible to take into account. Is it harder to reality warp people based on their importance to the story? What determines importance? 



> Let me make an example with another ability - changing the past.
> 
> it is limited by the extent the ability can change the past, yea?
> 
> so... if a character used that ability and destroyed a vase that has little to no importance, does that mean he can do pretty much the same and destroy a vase, that was considered a holy object at the time?



This depends so heavily on the mechanism it's not even funny. I mean, if you can just time travel back and smash the vase what you've just said here makes no sense at all. But if there's some rule of that universe that the past can only be changed a bit, then obviously you can do the former and not the latter. 

That's not a good general question. You need more info, and that info answers the question for you.  



> thought so
> 
> but can they be seen as different extents of affecting the reality?



They can be seen that way 

But not in a sense that's at all useful for what we're doing here in the battledome, which is making a case on (more or less) hard evidence



> because it's not an isolated system of some kind, affecting it - affects the reality as a whole



But where you choose the "whole" is just completely arbitrary, no?


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

> show me the scans where it's stated that Gremmy ability ignores the effect it has on reality
> 
> and everything else what you've said about the mechanics of the ability


For God's sake.

Bleach isn't a James Joyce novel, I'm not making particularly profound or complex observations here.  I'm literally *describing what's happening on the panels*.



> could is a key word here
> 
> unlike with turning the heart into cookies, death is a possible outcome, not a certain one



Hold on now.  You're acknowledging that his Meteor was fully capable of doing the destruction it was stated to be able to.  That means he IS capable of affecting reality to that degree.  What the fuck does the likelihood of the event have anything to do with it.  If you wanna play it like that, maybe the person he's using it on has super regenerative powers, and can regrow his brain through the cookies, or maybe it's a multiple brained creature that can survive losing a brain or two.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

Fujita said:


> Semantics. He's changing something into something else. The mechanism doesn't, in this instance, give you license to bring in a whole set of made up concerns about what that entails.



he is changing the reality, so how much the reality gets changed is what is important, no?

that's hardly made up concerns



> We should ignore them because they're wholly subjective and there's no actual reason for them to interfere beyond the sheer "what if?" factor
> 
> I mean
> > "Has he ever reality warped somebody with as strong dreams as this guy?"
> ...



the examples you've provided are entirely subjective, and have no bearing on a match (except for maybe the souls example, which I didn't understand)

whether reality warping cripples or outright kills is much more objective, don't you think? So I've no idea why are you distorting my argument and bringing up irrelevant extremes, that I've never even argued about.



> But if there's some rule of that universe that the past can only be changed a bit, then obviously you can do the former and not the latter.



is it possible that a reality warping ability is following a similar rule?



> They can be seen that way
> 
> But not in a sense that's at all useful for what we're doing here in the battledome, which is making a case on (more or less) hard evidence



but I'm not the one that needs to provide hard evidence here

my stance was always that it can be one of it's possible limitations, given how reality warping works in general and the fact this battle lasts several chapters instead of one panel and that is why Gremmy hasn't one shotted Kenpachi:


but instead of actual proof I'm getting "it works this way because we say so", "it's CIS because we say so"  and attempts to nitpick at my own argument



> But where you choose the "whole" is just completely arbitrary, no?



when it comes to matches between characters from different verses - not really


----------



## Tapion (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> because that can be seen as changing the reality to a greater degree



in what way?...explain why the brain harder to change than bones.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> For God's sake.
> 
> Bleach isn't a James Joyce novel, I'm not making particularly profound or complex observations here.  I'm literally *describing what's happening on the panels*.



and I'm asking you to show those panels you are describing

too hard for you to understand?



> Hold on now.  You're acknowledging that his Meteor was fully capable of doing the destruction it was stated to be able to.  That means he IS capable of affecting reality to that degree.  What the fuck does the likelihood of the event have anything to do with it.  If you wanna play it like that, maybe the person he's using it on has super regenerative powers, and can regrow his brain through the cookies, or maybe it's a multiple brained creature that can survive losing a brain or two.



um... everything?

all his feats revolve around affecting reality to the extent that it could lead to death... or could not, unlike outright killing someone like with brains/hearts 

I've already repeated that several times

and your example has nothing to do with this because he has never actually done that


----------



## Fujita (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> he is changing the reality, so how much the reality gets changed is what is important, no?
> 
> that's hardly made up concerns



It becomes a made-up concern when you extend "the reality" to include things beyond the obvious "is this thing something that he can transform" 



> the examples you've provided are entirely subjective, and have no bearing on a match (except for maybe the souls example, which I didn't understand)
> 
> whether reality warping cripples or outright kills is much more objective, don't you think? So I've no idea why are you distorting my argument and bringing up irrelevant extremes, that I've never even argued about.



No no, what's subjective to me is the idea that life adds something extra to the equation, when that something _isn't_ an obvious direct limit. It's not something that takes advantage of a range limitation, it doesn't add undue complexity into the stuff that's actually getting transformed, it's not resistance against reality warping, or the like. It's basically something that wouldn't interfere with any conventional method of killing, but is now getting stacked on as an extra hurdle for a reality warper to overcome… for no apparent reason that I can see. 

Unless of course the reason is that it adds metaphysical complexity and that's something that reality warping now needs to work against. 

But all of the things I listed, subjective as they are, can and do add "metaphysical complexity." Why? Because I say so! It's really just that vague. I'm not trying to straw man you here, I'm saying that factoring in this abstract concept of life makes about as much sense as the things I listed. If you're going to muck around with abstracts, why stop at life? 

Then again, I don't think you should be messing with abstracts to begin with. They don't add a definite hurdle beyond somebody saying "this is there and I think it might do something against reality warping"  

They don't up the difficulty of affecting that matter, and reality warping shouldn't be any different. 



> is it possible that a reality warping ability is following a similar rule?



Possible

But by no means a universal given that we need to adopt as a standard around here 



> but I'm not the one that needs to provide hard evidence here



Never said you were 

Though, I'd like a convincing explanation of why the killing thing makes it harder to transform something besides these "tiers of reality warping" that I don't find at all self-evident



> my stance was always that it can be one of it's possible limitations, given how reality warping works in general



A stance on reality warping that I don't find general enough



> and the fact this battle lasts several chapters instead of one panel:



That'd be CIS/PIS 



> when it comes to matches between characters from different verses - not really



But you could still take the brain as your chosen subdivision of reality


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> and I'm asking you to show those panels you are describing
> 
> too hard for you to understand?


I don't have to prove that Gremmy is limited to transmutation and materialization.  That's literally all he does.  As far as the thing about affects on reality, I can't prove a negative, but just know that not a single scan supports your fan-fiction.  There is no standard for reality warping, it works however the fuck the author wants it to work.





> um... everything?
> 
> all his feats revolve around affecting reality to the extent that it could lead to death... or could not, unlike outright killing someone like with brains/hearts
> 
> and your example has nothing to do with this because he has never actually done that





I just provided you with examples of situations that could let someone/thing survive having their brains morphed.  They're no more ludicrous then a man jumping into the sky and blowing up a meteor with a sword.  The point is, it's not necessarily a one hundred percent guarantee of death.   Honestly I'm not even sure why I'm even entertaining this idea as a hypothetical, you don't have a shred of proof for this claim, other than "because I say so"


----------



## Fujita (Apr 22, 2014)

If he's still around



Sabl?s said:


> Until it's actually been shown on-panel or given a reason to doubt the efficacy of his "cookiefication". The answer is no.



So you're saying that he's not limited to people of Kenpachi's caliber in using his cookie powers?


----------



## Sablés (Apr 22, 2014)

Fujita said:


> If he's still around
> 
> 
> 
> So you're saying that he's not limited to people of Kenpachi's caliber in using his cookie powers?



I'm saying I don't know either way.

 Soifon's Shikai is NLF.   Hax like respira  that requires contact have never been overpowered and those that do not such as Sakanade or KS have been relatively successful so far.  I just don't see a point to enforcing limits when Gremme's didn't even _try _to turn Kenny into pastry.


----------



## Regicide (Apr 22, 2014)

Isn't Sakanade chemical-based or whatever the fuck?

Although maybe that's not relevant to whether or not you can overpower it, fuck if I know.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

Fujita said:


> It becomes a made-up concern when you extend "the reality" to include things beyond the obvious "is this thing something that he can transform"


well here's where we differ

to me whether reality warping can kill is still within the obvious

if we were talking about simple transformation / transmutation I would have agreed with you


> No no, what's subjective to me is the idea that life adds something extra to the equation, when that something _isn't_ an obvious direct limit. It's not something that takes advantage of a range limitation, it doesn't add undue complexity into the stuff that's actually getting transformed, it's not resistance against reality warping, or the like. It's basically something that wouldn't interfere with any conventional method of killing, but is now getting stacked on as an extra hurdle for a reality warper to overcome? for no apparent reason that I can see.
> 
> Unless of course the reason is that it adds metaphysical complexity and that's something that reality warping now needs to work against.


Metaphysical yes, because reality has metaphysical components, not only physical. At least as far as general human understanding of it goes.


> But all of the things I listed, subjective as they are, can and do add "metaphysical complexity." Why? Because I say so! It's really just that vague. I'm not trying to straw man you here, I'm saying that factoring in this abstract concept of life makes about as much sense as the things I listed. If you're going to muck around with abstracts, why stop at life?
> 
> Then again, I don't think you should be messing with abstracts to begin with. They don't add a definite hurdle beyond somebody saying "this is there and I think it might do something against reality warping"


um... not really

whether someone gets turned into a cripple or get killed, whether one can still affect reality with his actions or not are rather concrete and objective

at least compared to the extremes you've listed


> Possible
> 
> But by no means a universal given that we need to adopt as a standard around here


and what that standard is?

like I've said the concept of life adding a hurdle to reality warping is fairly common limitation put by authors on it

and I've asked whether that was default in OBD or not


> Though, I'd like a convincing explanation of why the killing thing makes it harder to transform something besides these "tiers of reality warping" that I don't find at all self-evident


because it's not simply transforming something, it's changing/bending to your will reality itself

reality as in a much broader structure, where everything is connected

so by bending reality to your will you are ultimately messing with the structure as a whole, right?

so isn't it logical to say that changing a certain part's role in said structure in messing with it to a lesser extent than outright removing a certain part from that structure, so it plays no role at all?

whether the victim is able to continue to affect reality with his actions or not is a rather solid tier


> A stance on reality warping that I don't find general enough


reality warping is affecting it to an extent

what is not general enough about that?


> That'd be CIS/PIS


that'be CIS/PIS if we knew for a fact how his abilities work and what are it's limitations

We don't. His ability did not have any explanation beyond turning imagination to reality

the fact that Kubo has yet to actually explain whether there is a limitation that did not allow Gremmy to one shot Kenpachi does not mean there is none

the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence

especially when the fact that Gremmy not doing that can be seen as implying that there is a reason, so some evidence is actually is present

so it's really an assumption that it's CIS/PIS

also...is the most simple assumption that there might be actually a reason for this or that there is none and it's CIS/PIS? On which side is Occam's Razor here?


> But you could still take the brain as your chosen subdivision of reality


if the ability was shown/described to work that way - yes


EntangledHive said:


> I don't have to prove that Gremmy is limited to transmutation and materialization.  That's literally all he does.  As far as the thing about affects on reality, I can't prove a negative, but just know that not a single scan supports your fan-fiction.


and where did I ask you to prove a negative?

you gave a concrete description of the mechanic behind his reality warping:


> So the act of turning someones brains into cookies, as far as this ability is concerned, it's not "killing" but just turning physical material into cookies.


I've asked for scans to prove that Gremmy's ability works the way you've described above.

Where are they?


> There is no standard for reality warping, it works however the fuck the author wants it to work.


but you seem to know for certain how Gremmy's reality warping works, so certain that any inconsistency with your model you are chugging off to CIS/PIS

I'm asking where does that certainty come from.

Basically, prove that it works the way you are describing and that Gremmy not turning Kenny's brain/heart into cookies is due to PIS (CIS doesn't really work here) and not due to limitations.

Prove that Gremmy's brand of reality warping disregards the effects it has on reality, treating the object it affects as an isolated system.


> Honestly I'm not even sure why I'm even entertaining this idea as a hypothetical, you don't have a shred of proof for this claim, other than "because I say so"


what claim?

I've said that all his feats in question consist of him creating a situation where a character might die, not outright killing him. Is that untrue now? Where did I say "because I say so"? Which part does need proof?


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 22, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> you gave a concrete description of the mechanic behind his reality warping:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Once again, I don't need to prove that.  It's the most reasonable conclusion we have based on the information we have, Occam's razor and all.  You prove to me that his ability to transform matter is restricted by the results it will have.




> what claim?
> 
> I've said that all his feats in question consist of him creating a situation where a character might die, not outright killing him. Is that untrue now? Where did I say "because I say so"? Which part does need proof?



No, you claimed that the risk of death somehow made Gremmy unable to perform certain actions he would ordinarily be able to because why the fuck not.  Oh and just to really hammer this in.  *Everything Gremmy imagines is bound to have a significant effect on reality*.  Every action he takes is shifting the status quo to a position it would haven not been in had he not performed said action.  The Meteor for example.  Even though Kenpachi pulverized it, the fact that it was created and almost crashed into Seritei is bound to change "reality" in a very significant way, people are going to talk about it, different decisions are going to be made, and it's highly likely a few people were killed by the falling debris.  "Changes in reality" are completely unquantifiable, trying to use that concept as some sort of limiter for a characters power makes absolutely no sense.

Also I just finished explaining how morphing someones brain and/or heart could potentially not be lethal so even in the realm of your bizzaro logic it still doesn't work


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 22, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> Once again, I don't need to prove that.  It's the most reasonable conclusion we have based on the information we have, Occam's razor and all.



in what way? show to me that information, that makes you so certain

because, as far as I know, all the information we have is that he can turn his imagination into reality (some kind of a reality warper). That's it. There is no other information which can be derived from his feats, and all of said feats can be replicated by any kind of reality warping (that sees "reality" as a broad concept or only focuses on a concrete object, ignoring it's connection to reality as a whole, or whatever).

and Occam's razor does not give you the right to shrug it off to CIS/PIS 

I'm pretty sure the simplest solution is actually that there is a reason the author just spent several chapters on a battle, that should have been over in one panel if there was no such reason



> You prove to me that his ability to transform matter is restricted by the results it will have.



again, his ability is not transforming matter, it's reality warping, that was how it was described 

plus, otherwise his powers wouldn't have been able to affect an unquantifiable concept like death (this btw only proves that his reality warping does take the concept of death and life into account)

which makes this as stupid as demanding proof that nukes are limited by the destruction they cause

or that time travel is limited by how far a character can travel

reality warping is changing the reality to a certain extent, so it is limited by the extent it affects the reality

the only thing you can argue is that turning someone's bones and turning someone's heart are seen as the same extent in this instance



> No, you claimed that the risk of death somehow made Gremmy unable to perform certain actions he would ordinarily be able to because why the fuck not.



resorting to straw man?

boring



> Oh and just to really hammer this in.  *Everything Gremmy imagines is bound to have a significant effect on reality*.  Every action he takes is shifting the status quo to a position it would haven not been in had he not performed said action.  The Meteor for example.  Even though Kenpachi pulverized it, the fact that it was created and almost crashed into Seritei is bound to change "reality" in a very significant way, people are going to talk about it, different decisions are going to be made, and it's highly likely a few people were killed by the falling debris.



nice to see that you are finally starting to realize what reality warping is about, but work a little on grasping the concept of changing reality to a certain extent, and being limited by the extent it has shown



> "Changes in reality" are completely unquantifiable, trying to use that concept as some sort of limiter for a characters power makes absolutely no sense.



wait.. spoken too soon

changing the laws of physics

or what the hell... introducing the concept of death into the reality 

both are reality warping btw

try to quantify that

and think about whether that can be a limiter to a character's ability



> Also I just finished explaining how morphing someones brain and/or heart could potentially not be lethal so even in the realm of your bizzaro logic it still doesn't work



a) Gremmy has never turned someone's heart/brain into cookies
b) Gremmy never used his abilities against a character that can regenerate

your fan fictions do not interest me

I thought I've made that pretty clear already


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 23, 2014)

> in what way? show to me that information, that makes you so certain
> 
> because, as far as I know, all the information we have is that he can turn his imagination into reality (some kind of a reality warper). That's it. There is no other information can be derived from his feats, and all of them can be replicated by any kind of reality warping (that sees "reality" as a broad concept or only focuses on a concrete object, ignoring it's connection to reality as a whole, or whatever).
> 
> ...


Because that's how his power is shown to work.  There's no proof his power is limited depending on the effects it might cause.  You're asking me to prove that his power doesn't depend on something it was never shown or stated to depend on.  Just think about that for a second.

Occam's razor actually does support PIS/CIS as reason for him not shape shifting Kenpachi into pastries, since there's never been any indication or explanation as to why he couldn't.




> again, his ability is not transforming matter, it's reality warping, that was how they were described
> 
> plus, otherwise his powers wouldn't have been able to affect a concept like death (this btw only proves that his reality warping does take the concept of death and life into account)



Actually what probably happened is Gremmy just gave himself massive durability so he could survive the Meteor as well as Kenpachi's blows.  Unless you're implying that he's literally invincible 



> which makes this as stupid as demanding proof that nukes are limited by the destruction they cause
> 
> or that time travel is limited by how far a character can travel
> 
> ...



You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about 


Reality warping is an extremely abstract concept, from author to author and fiction to fiction how it's treated varies wildly.  It's limits are whatever is made evident in the specific universe.  I must have said it four times now.  Gremmy's reality warping is a single action.  Once it's done it's done, whatever happens afterwords doesn't affect his ability to use his his power.  That's what's shown in the manga.  This business of all reality warpers being limited to the extent that they can warp reality based not on the action but the *result* of the action only exists in your head.



> resorting to straw man?
> 
> boring



You wish.  It's not a strawman just because you don't like the way I phrased the entire gist of your position.



> nice to see that you are finally starting to realize what reality warping is about, but work a little on grasping the concept of changing reality to a certain extent, and being limited by the extent it has shown
> wait.. spoken too soon
> 
> changing the laws of physics... try to quantify that
> ...


I get the impression you're the kind of person who spends a lot more time thinking about what they're gonna say then actually listening and trying to understand what the other person has to say.  Because none of this competently addresses what I wrote...whatsoever.



> a) Gremmy has never turned someone's heart/brain into cookies
> b) Gremmy never used his abilities against a character that can regenerate


Can you at the very least agree with yourself?  Your whole position is based around the idea that he can't transmute specific organ based on the lethal results that action will have..now you're saying he can't transmute those organs in the first place?  You're the one who's obsessed with calling it reality warping and now you're imposing arbitary physical limitations on it?

What the hell does it matter who he's used it against?  A brain is a brain, in a regenerator or not.


----------



## Nevan (Apr 23, 2014)

This thread  

Gremmy flat out killed Kensei and Rose.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 23, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> Because that's how his power is shown to work.  There's no proof his power is limited depending on the effects it might cause.  You're asking me to prove that his power doesn't depend on something it was never shown or stated to depend on.  Just think about that for a second.



you repeating that it was shown to do exactly what you described over and over does not mean it actually was

again, I did not ask you to disprove that it works a certain way, I've asked you to prove that it works the way you are describing it works



> Occam's razor actually does support PIS/CIS as reason for him not shape shifting Kenpachi into pastries, since there's never been any indication or explanation as to why he couldn't.



the fact that he has never turned someone's heart/brain into cookies isn't an indication? 



> Actually what probably happened is Gremmy just gave himself massive durability so he could survive the Meteor as well as Kenpachi's blows.  Unless you're implying that he's literally invincible



I'm not implying anything (it wouldn't have made him invincible anyway)

I'm only saying what it was stated to do, not "what probably happened".



> You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about



yes, obviously



> Reality warping is an extremely abstract concept, from author to author and fiction to fiction how it's treated varies wildly.  It's limits are whatever is made evident in the specific universe.  I must have said it four times now.  Gremmy's reality warping is a single action.  Once it's done it's done, whatever happens afterwords doesn't affect his ability to use his his power.  That's what's shown in the manga.



And I've already asked for actual proof where it is stated/shown that, I quote, "whatever happens afterwords doesn't affect his ability to use his his power".

Show it to me, if it was shown in the manga.

Simple as that.



> This business of all reality warpers being limited to the extent that they can warp reality based not on the action but the *result* of the action only exists in your head



Now if only I did actually claim that all reality warpers are limited that way, and not that it's a fairly common limitation found in fiction

lay off dem straw men 



> You wish.  It's not a strawman just because you don't like the way I phrased the entire gist of your position.



the gist of my position:



DarkTorrent said:


> > still not understanding that *reality warping can be limited* by the effect it has on a character



so yes, it's either a straw man or your reading comprehension is even lower than I've previously suspected



> I get the impression you're the kind of person who spends a lot more time thinking about what they're gonna say then actually listening and trying to understand what the other person has to say.  Because none of this competently addresses what I wrote...whatsoever.



you wrote:



> Everything Gremmy imagines is bound to have a significant effect on reality. Every action he takes is shifting the status quo to a position it would haven not been in had he not performed said action. The Meteor for example. Even though Kenpachi pulverized it, the fact that it was created and almost crashed into Seritei is bound to change "reality" in a very significant way, people are going to talk about it, different decisions are going to be made, and it's highly likely a few people were killed by the falling debris.



which was basically you trying to describe the full extent of Gremmy's reality warping a meteor can have

to which I replied that you are starting to grasp what reality warping might entail, but still not figuring out what are actually extents of the reality warping itself, and what are not

which part is not adressing what you wrote?

and you also said that:



> "Changes in reality" are completely unquantifiable, trying to use that concept as some sort of limiter for a characters power makes absolutely no sense.



to which I replied with examples of reality warping abilities that are not quantifiable and yet are used as limits of their abilities

so again... which part does not adress what you wrote?



> Can you at the very least agree with yourself?  Your whole position is based around the idea that he can't transmute specific organ based on the lethal results that action will have..now you're saying he can't transmute those organs in the first place?



my position is based around the idea that he can't transmute what he hasn't shown to be able to transmute in the first place, due to possible limitations, one of which is that it is beyond his ability to change the reality (like causing death directly).

so again... I'm not really seeing where I'm not agreeing with myself



> You're the one who's obsessed with calling it reality warping and now you're imposing arbitary physical limitations on it?



I do?

so the concept of it being dependant on the type of regeneration is foreign to you? whether he can survive for a certain amount of time without a functioning heart/brain, etc? that your fan fiction does not work as an example at all, because he hasn't shown to do anything of that with a regenerator or not, so I can't make a call on whether he transforms the whole heart/brain or do some cells remain uneffected so a regenerator has you know... the material to regenerate the heart/brain from?



> What the hell does it matter who he's used it against?  A brain is a brain, in a regenerator or not.


----------



## Chad (Apr 23, 2014)

Acnologia still solos. They don't have the firepower to take him down.


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Apr 23, 2014)

1. Can Gremmy change brains to cookies?
DT gives the whole causality argument-  which is pretty weak. The action of turning a brain into a cookie is independent of its effect. By what we've seen, he *should*be able to.
Plain and simple.
But he hasn't now, has he? That's something, don't you think?
Anyone who claims CIS/PIS only has to prove it. There's exactly nothing to say that he hasn't cookie'd Kenpachi, not because of CIS/PIS, but rather, just because he fuckin' can't.


----------



## Revan Reborn (Apr 23, 2014)

Astral said:


> Acnologia still solos. They don't have the firepower to take him down.



Ur kidding... right?


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 23, 2014)

Just so you know, unless you at least attempt to provide some convincing evidence for your claim, this'll be my last response, because this shit is getting old.



> you repeating that it was shown to do exactly what you described over and over does not mean it actually was
> 
> again, I did not ask you to disprove that it works a certain way, I've asked you to prove that it works the way you are describing it works


Do you not understand what it means to ask to prove a negative?

Gremmy can transform matter into other things.  It has never been shown on panel, that it is dependent on anything like the results of the transformation on "reality."  I don't need to prove that Gremmy's power isn't dependent on something it's never shown to be dependent on.



> the fact that he has never turned someone's heart/brain into cookies isn't an indication?



He's never tried.



> I'm not implying anything (it wouldn't have made him invincible anyway)
> 
> I'm only saying what it was stated to do, not "what probably happened".


And anyone with half a brain could tell that his statement was hyperbolic.  "I won't die"  "You can't kill me."  So yeah, that is what probably happened, in fact it's by far the most rational explanation as to what probably happened.



> And I've already asked for actual proof where it is stated/shown that, I quote, "whatever happens afterwords doesn't affect his ability to use his his power".
> 
> Show it to me, if it was shown in the manga.
> 
> Simple as that.



You want proof?

Fine.

Every single time Gremmy use his ability, not once is that ever made out to be an issue.  Hell, Yachiru would have died if she moved just a little bit, so having a near 100% chance of death isn't an issue either.

But none of that ever matters.

Get it through it through your skull.

The burden of proof lies with the accuser.



> Now if only I did actually claim that all reality warpers are limited that way, and not that it's a fairly common limitation found in fiction


There is no standard for reality warping.

_There is no standard for reality warping._

It's comparable to magic, it'll do whatever the hell the author wants it to do. 

It's not a "fairly common limitation."  If anything, a common limitation would be the degree/scale to which they can directly warp reality.  What you are talking about is not that.

What you're talking about is limiting an ability based on the the effects caused after the ability is actually used, which is retarded.



> which part is not adressing what you wrote?


None of it did, you just repeated the same nonsense as always.

That's also not what I meant by unquantifiable.  I'm not talking about the acts of reality warping itself, I'm talking about the effects said actions have on the status quo and measuring them accurately is next to impossible.



> so yes, it's either a straw man or your reading comprehension is even lower than I've previously suspected



Too bad that's pretty much the same that I wrote, only I mentioned that you don't have a single shred of supporting evidence to support your claims.



> my position is based around the idea that he can't transmute what he hasn't shown to be able to transmute in the first place, due to possible limitations, one of which is that it is beyond his ability to change the reality (like causing death directly).


So you really are also limiting it based on arbitrary stuff.  I guess that's not nearly as bad the causing death directly nonsense, but it fails nonetheless, for reasons that have been explained a million times over in this thread and others.




> so the concept of it being dependant on the type of regeneration is foreign to you? whether he can survive for a certain amount of time without a functioning heart/brain, etc? that your example does not work at all, because he hasn't shown to do anything of that with a regenerator or not, so I can't make a call on whether he transforms the whole heart/brain or do some cells remain uneffected so a regenerator has you know... the material to regenerate the heart/brain from?



....The entire point of that example was to give a situation where someone could survive it with regeneration, assuming the entire brain is transmuted.  You're trying to debate me on something I never even challenged in the first place.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 23, 2014)

Gremmy tries to imagine himself as a nakama 


dies 

after that Kenpachi solos


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 23, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> -snip-



again... what claim exactly?

I'm only asking actual proof from you

proof that him not turning Kenny's heart into cookies is CIS and not the result of his limitations (reiatsu, extent of his reality warping, whatever)

manga panels, author statements

everything that supports your claim behind the ability's mechanics

that is not a claim, that is not asking for you to prove a negative, I'm asking for you to prove a positive, your own claims

and no, shifting the burden of proof on me, spamming "it's obvious" and appeals to personal believes a la "it works that way cuz I say so" (because that's what they seem as until you actually back them up with evidence) and inadequately attacking my position is not proof 

because my position always was not that it works a certain way, but that we don't know how it works exactly, and that it can work other ways, other than the one you are insisting on  

and one of those ways can be that his reality warping is the type that's limited by the effect it has on people's "reality", and I've described the reason a limitation of that kind existed in that type, because in your opinion that kind of limitation was "nonsense"

or it can be any other type and have any other logical limitations that depend on the mechanics

you get that now?

I am saying that we don't have enough information and the information we have is too vague to determine which type of reality warping we are dealing with and what does Kubo understand by "reality"

and all feats it has shown to do can be done via reality warping with different mechanics behind it, including the one I've spent several pages describing in detail

so it is safer to asume that him not doing something is not because he hasn't tried or CIS or PIS or kubologic or whatever, but is actually a limitation

while you are saying that you posses concrete evidence that proves it works a certain way, and that it was PIS, CIS. But for some reason are unable to show me said evidence, and instead spent several pages doing anything but that

was this clear enough for you this time?

if it was... should I expect proof or just give up?


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Apr 23, 2014)

Kenpachi "Cuts everything" with his shitty ass excuse of a zanpakutou and Kubo drowns in the money given to him by his sheep fans.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 23, 2014)

I highly doubt any OBD fans of Bleach or HST spent any money on those mangas 

maybe a few .. a bit .. maybe


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 23, 2014)

I'm more interested on what the thoughts of the OBD proper on the subject are

the general standard for reality warping and the default OBD limitations to it... etc


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 23, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> I'm more interested on what the thoughts of the OBD proper on the subject are
> 
> the general standard for reality warping and the default OBD limitations to it... etc


meta thread

do it


do something useful for once DT


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 23, 2014)




----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 23, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> meta thread
> 
> do it
> 
> ...



no way

the thread will end up the same way as Rukia's AZ threads

creating such a monstrosity is hardly being useful, I'm not going to be responsible for that


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 23, 2014)

too late

zenath already fucked it up


----------



## AgentAAA (Apr 23, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> they are arguing that Gremmy's ability has limitation. The very same thing I'm arguing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm going to point out here, cause and effect listed here are only important in an intellectual sense. To Reality as a whole, he's not making an action that only cripples.
What he's doing is causing a certain amount of matter to change composition. That being "Yachiru's bones turn into cookies".
Reality as a whole is just a bunch of different atoms and energy. That's what Gremmy is interacting with here.
He's not doing an action to cripple, he's changing X amount of Atoms to X amount of different atoms.

That's the actual change to reality. Killing or crippling yachiru makes no difference to reality, except in our heads regarding how it impacts the story.
But summoning a meteor >>> killing one girl in impact since that shows he has the potential to create the direct amount that should be more than necessary to kill her. And he should have no problem forming that exact same amount of rock for any purpose and on or in anyone without the amount of energy to diffuse what is after all not true reality manipulation, but changing the fabric by using finite energy (reishi)
Which both explains it's limitations in that he couldn't affect kenpachi directly due to him having too much energy, and why he was able to do it to Yachiru.
As for why he didn't kill Yachiru? Gremmy's a sadistic douche.
But killing a person or crippling them? Reality-wise that makes absolutely no difference. matter manipulation should take some of the same amount of energy either way.


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 23, 2014)

^no one is going to read that wall of text... fix it if you want people to read that shit.


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Apr 23, 2014)

Am I the only one who didn't read that drivel?


----------



## Hamaru (Apr 23, 2014)

Gremm opens up space..


----------



## Revan Reborn (Apr 23, 2014)

Its mirage


----------



## Linkofone (Apr 23, 2014)

That sure is a large amount of words.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 23, 2014)

CT said:
			
		

> Clearly demonstrates an inability to directly kill an opponent by directly targeting their continued existence. Either he flat out can't do so, or he's ignorant to how to properly use his powers... CIS or PIS being unrestricted will not fix the former or latter.
> 
> Dies trying to imagine something that clearly impossible for him to become... more powerful than fucking kenpachi.
> 
> ...



glad to see Chaos agrees with me :33


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 23, 2014)

Only the conclusion.  Nobody agree's with your tin foil hat theories on reality warping :33


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 23, 2014)

CT said:
			
		

> Clearly demonstrates an inability to directly kill an opponent by directly targeting their continued existence.





			
				me said:
			
		

> > still not understanding that reality warping can be limited by the effect it has on a character





			
				me said:
			
		

> whether reality warping can kill directly or cause death indirectly, like creating a meteor



you're reading comprehension is really abyssmal, isn't it?


----------



## LordPerucho (Apr 23, 2014)

Zaraki survived being sucked into space, thus his durability is miles better than everyone in the FT verse...


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 23, 2014)

I can survive in space for ~30 seconds 



also : 

DT vs EH


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 23, 2014)

He didn't say anything about changing effects on reality or probability or whatever the fuck.  If you bothered to read his other posts you would see that he's basically saying that Kenpachi is just 2 stronk.

Of course I think he's wrong as well, but a the very least his theory is grounded on something in reality.

EDIT:

Also just on a side note.

Gremmy can *directly* create life

With consciousness and everything

That act has theoretically just as much of an effect on reality as taking a life.  So even under your logic, still no problem with turning vital organs into pastries.

As if there weren't enough reasons why your theory doesn't make any sense.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 23, 2014)

> He didn't say anything about changing effects on reality or probability or whatever the fuck.



and I did? 

What I said was that Gremmy is limited by the extent he can affect reality. Killing someone directly (affecting a character's existence like CT put it) can be seen as a greater extent than what he has shown.

I've never said anything about changing the effects on reality (lol), and the probability shit is just you not understanding the difference between a reality warper killing someone indirectly by creating a meteor or a sword or some shit and killing directly. 

So it's again your ability to comprehend what you are reading at work here



> If you bothered to read anything else he wrote you would see that he's basically saying that Kenpachi is just 2 stronk.



work on your reading comprehension, honestly



> Of course I think he's wrong as well, but a the very least his theory is grounded on something in reality.



you can think whatever you want

but until you actually prove that what you think is actually the most likely case here, you're thoughts are worth shit


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 23, 2014)

> Also just on a side note.
> 
> Gremmy can directly create life
> 
> ...



so there is no difference to you between creating a new existence and being able to affect another character's existence by directly killing him?


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 23, 2014)

You seem to like to talk about reading comprehension a lot.

Funny coming from a guy who can't even accurately interpret the events in a few simple chapters of a shonen battle manga.  God help you if you ever read an actual book.

Your entire position was based on effects on reality and probablity of death or whatever.  It would be pointless to pick out a quote because that's literally your entire position.  Just go back and read what you wrote if you don't believe me.



> so there is no difference to you between creating a new existence and being able to affect another character's existence by directly killing him?



One that would affect the effectiveness of his ability?  Absolutely not.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 23, 2014)

Yeah... whatever you say 

but anyway, unlike you I'm more than willing to bring up quotes made by me, especially when they are more relevant than ever 



			
				me said:
			
		

> You've already made it obvious that the simple concept of abilities being limited by what kind of effect they've shown to have is beyond you. No need to beat a dead horse over and over.



hint:

creating a new existence and affecting another character's existence are two different effects


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 23, 2014)

>all this backpedaling

He can directly create a life.

He can directly take someone's life(the vanishing point)

He's shown on panel doing something you've explicitly stated he can't do 

You see why I'm getting exasperated?


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 23, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> >all this backpedaling



where?



> He can directly create a life.



so?



> He can directly take someone's life(the vanishing point)



elaborate 



> He's shown on panel doing something you've explicitly stated he can't do



what exactly did I say he can't do that he has shown on panel?



> You see why I'm getting exasperated?



not really

all I'm seeing is grasping at straws


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 23, 2014)

> where?


See if you can figure it out by reading the rest of this post.



> so?


He can manipulate life.  Why is death such a magical thing that he wouldn't be able cause the alternative with this ability?



> elaborate


To your credit, if you're a troll, you're one of the best trolls I've ever encountered.





> what exactly did I say he can't do that he has shown on panel?


When you said he couldn't directly end someone's life.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 23, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> See if you can figure it out by reading the rest of this post.







> He can manipulate life.  Why is death such a magical thing that he wouldn't be able cause the alternative with this ability?



because if he can create an existence, that only means he can create an existence, nothing less nothing more



			
				me said:
			
		

> You've already made it obvious that the simple concept of abilities being limited by what kind of effect they've shown to have is beyond you



read that creafully



> To your credit, if you're a troll, you're one of the best trolls I've ever encountered.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



and finally 4 pages later you bring up a scan to try and prove your claim... we are making progress

maybe in 20 pages I will finally get the proof about Gremmy's ability working the way you've described that I asked for so many times 

anyway, regarding the scans

they do not show how exactly the guy was killed, do they?

so why are you assuming that Gremmy killed him directly and not turned his bones into cookies or made a bomb near him or whatever?


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 23, 2014)

Someone please close this thread


----------



## Hamaru (Apr 23, 2014)

I'm pretty sure he ended that guy's life by making him no longer exsist. He also supposedly killed Rose and Kensei with his thoughts.


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 23, 2014)

So basically your strategy is tweaking your position every time it gets shot down.  Good at prolonging a discussion, but you'll get backed into a corner eventually.



> and finally 4 pages later you bring up a scan to try and prove your claim... we are making progres
> 
> maybe in 20 pages I will finally get the proof about Gremmy's ability working the way you've described that I asked for so many times



More like I've just lost my faith in your ability to recall the simple events from these short ass chapters.



> they do not show how exactly the guy was killed, do they?
> 
> so why are you assuming that Gremmy killed him directly and not turned his bones into cookies or made a bomb near him or whatever?


Remember the scan before that?  Gremmy just erases the guy's shoulder.  No bomb, no sword, he just imagines it's gone.

He was blown up from the inside out.  Instant death, we don't see a bomb, we don't see anything, he just explodes.

At that point we have the knowledge that he can blast apart flesh by manipulating it directly.  Parsimony dictates he killed him in the same way.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 23, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> So basically your strategy is tweaking your position every time it gets shot down.  Good at prolonging a discussion, but you'll get backed into a corner eventually.



another empty accusation?

you are getting repeative

when you are accusing someone of something, at least have the decency to back up your accusations

considering you've made several already and have yet to back at least one up even when I asked you for, should I expect the same here?



> More like I've just lost my faith in your ability to recall the simple events from these short ass chapters.



the idea that you might encounter someone that does not read bleach regulary or at all and you will still have to defend your position with scans, etc is foreign to you? 



> Remember the scan before that?  Gremmy just erases the guy's shoulder.  No bomb, no sword, he just imagines it's gone.



and? how does that prove that he can kill directly by trageting his existence (quoting Chaos since you've liked his phrasing so much )?

he can cripple with his reality warping, we already know that



> He was blown up from the inside out.  Instant death, we don't see a bomb, we don't see anything, he just explodes.
> 
> At that point we have the knowledge that he can blast apart flesh by manipulating it directly.  Parsimony dictates he killed him in the same way.



by manipulating flesh directly do you mean he can turn flesh/certain organs into an explosive?

if yes, then that is not really much different from turning bones into cookies


----------



## Fujita (Apr 23, 2014)

So, DT, I'm going to have to bow out of this thread 

Might write something up for the meta thread, so if you want to keep arguing this reply to me there


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 23, 2014)

Fujita said:


> So, DT, I'm going to have to bow out of this thread
> 
> Might write something up for the meta thread, so if you want to keep arguing this reply to me there



I want to bow out of this thread as well, but me being stubborn about actually seeing some of the concreet proof I asked for is what's keeping me here.

But thanks for participating, I really appreciated your input

and I might reply to the post you might write in the meta


----------



## Tacocat (Apr 23, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> I can survive in space for ~30 seconds



Flutter confirmed miles more durable than FTverse


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 23, 2014)

> another empty accusation?
> 
> you are getting repeative
> 
> ...


You claim Gremmy can't erase someone's life because that's affecting reality to a greater degree than he's been shown to be able to.

I prove your wrong when I point out he can create life(a feat that has just as great of an effect on reality) just fine.

You claim that doesn't work because they're different things, neglecting to bring up your main assertion that his ability depends on the degree to which he can effect reality.

And you forget that what we're talking about is not even technically an opposite equivalent of that action, so you're not even addressing the point.



> the idea that you might encounter someone that does not read bleach regulary or at all and you will still have to defend your position with scans, etc is foreign to you?


This is hilarious.  You ask me to disprove your claims about the source material when you're not even familiar with the source material in the first place 



> and? how does that prove that he can kill directly by trageting his existence (quoting Chaos since you've liked his phrasing so much )?
> 
> he can cripple with his reality warping, we already know that
> 
> ...



So you're really going to force me to drag you to this point kicking and screaming.  Fine.

I don't think you quite get the concept of Occam's razor and parsimony.

Gremmy performed an action(imagining V's shoulder gone)

We now know he is capable of manipulating this characters body.

He then performed another action(blowing V up from the inside) given that there was no smoke or fireball, it obviously wasn't a bomb.

Given that both actions are basically similar and there was no physical object needed for the first action, the most logical conclusion is that the second action also did not require an object,  thereby it was direct manipulation of the body, thereby he "directly" ended his existence


----------



## DarkTorrent (Apr 23, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> You claim Gremmy can't erase someone's life because that's affecting reality to a greater degree than he's been shown to be able to.
> 
> I prove your wrong when I point out he can create life(a feat that has just as great of an effect on reality) just fine.
> 
> You claim that doesn't work because they're different things, neglecting to bring up your main assertion that his ability depends on the degree to which he can effect reality.



sigh, you're really bad at limitations and logic in general, aren't you?

the fact that he can create a life form only means that he can create a life form that he has shown to create

in no way does that mean that he can affect another's character existence

you get it now?

creating life is one extent of affecting reality

affecting another character's existence is another

again I'll quote myself:



			
				me said:
			
		

> work a little on grasping the concept of changing reality to a certain extent, and being limited by the extent it has shown



think really hard what is a certain extent



> This is hilarious.  *You ask me to disprove your claims* about the source material when you're not even familiar with the source material in the first place



are you really doing this?

fine:



DarkTorrent said:


> *then show them
> 
> show me the scans where it's stated that Gremmy ability ignores the effect it has on reality
> 
> and everything else what you've said about the mechanics of the ability*





DarkTorrent said:


> *and I'm asking you to show those panels you are describing*
> 
> too hard for you to understand?





DarkTorrent said:


> and where did I ask you to prove a negative?
> 
> you gave a concrete description of the mechanic behind his reality warping:
> 
> ...





DarkTorrent said:


> you repeating that it was shown to do exactly what you described over and over does not mean it actually was
> 
> *again, I did not ask you to disprove that it works a certain way, I've asked you to prove that it works the way you are describing it works*
> 
> ...





DarkTorrent said:


> again... what claim exactly?
> 
> *I'm only asking actual proof from you
> 
> ...



basically you're full of shit, no?

and I'm still waiting for you to back up the other accusations



> So you're really going to force me to drag you to this point kicking and screaming.  Fine.
> 
> I don't think you quite get the concept of Occam's razor and parsimony.
> 
> ...



firstly, we only know for sure that he can only affect a certain part of a character's body

secondly, you are trying to avoid looking deeper into the mechanics behind the feat (the fact that there was no smoke or fireball does not mean that the flesh was not turned into some kind of explosive, as in something that "blows up"), and as such steering it from the fact that this can very well be killing indirectly by making certain areas of flesh, like bones f.e. "blow up", which later affected the rest of the body and as a result killed him

the same might not have happened if the character in question was more durable, and would have been able to withstand the effects of certain areas of his body "blowing up"

basically, this does not prove that what he did was not similar to turning a character's bones into cookies, which btw was also direct manipulation of the body

anyway, I'm off to sleep


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 23, 2014)

> creating life is one extent of affecting reality
> 
> affecting another character's existence is another


Creating life *is* affecting a character's existence you nutcase 





> are you really doing this?
> 
> fine:



Are you really going to pretend that you denied that you were asking me to prove a negative?  Because that's all this is, asking me to prove a negative.  Asking me to prove that his power's do *not* depend on the extent which his creations affect reality.  You have to prove they are dependent on that in the first place.  I've already explained that the action itself and the resulting effect of the action are two different things.  It would be fair if you wanted to argue about things like energy expenditure or scale, but you want to argue about "reality" by pretending "affects on reality" is some measurable concept.



> and I'm still waiting for you to back up the other accusations.


Better idea.  Go read the chapters and then come back.  You have no right to make proclamations about manga chapters you haven't even read.



> firstly, we only know for sure that he can only affect a certain part of a character's body


That makes a lot of sense.  It's only rational that if a boxer continues punching the torso and doesn't go for any other part, he isn't capable of striking any other body part.

..

Before you try to get cute with "B-but reality warping is different" know this.

Gremmy has never been shown to be limited when it comes to the location of his creations in his field of vision.  You're implying that
1: there is some magic spot that he can't effect.

or 

2:He is only capable of affecting specific body parts and other body parts resistant to his powers.

Both of these claims have zero evidence supporting them.

Wouldn't you of all people have to admit that in order to apply some mundane limitation to a reality warper, that limitation would have to be explicitly described in the manga?



> secondly, you are trying to avoid looking deeper into the mechanics behind the feat (the fact that there was no smoke or fireball does not mean that the flesh was not turned into some kind of explosive, as in something that "blows up"), and as such steering it from the fact that this can very well be killing indirectly by making certain areas of flesh, like bones f.e. "blow up", which later affected the rest of the body and as a result killed him



Dem mental gymnastics

If you replaced "looking deeper" with "making shit up" then you'd be right.

Seriously, I have no reason to respond to any of this.  You're so desperate to be right that you've resorted to baseless "well, what if.." assertions.  Stick to the panels.  Stick with the hypothesis that requires the least assumptions.



> the same might not have happened if the character in question was more durable, and would have been able to withstand the effects of certain areas of his body "blowing up"


hahah

At least pay attention, you're literally saying the exact same thing I was before.  Remember?  I said that you're claim that a cookie brain means automatic death isn't necessarily true for a character with the right attributes.  In this case the character clearly could not resist it, so they were blown to pieces, so it's just as much of a guaranteed death as a cookie brain.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 23, 2014)

Fuckers, if the argument is that he can't directly kill somebody, then he's just plainly wrong.
Because he killed rose and kensei using his  imagination.

Also, resume this at the meta. SMH.


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 24, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Fuckers, if the argument is that he can't directly kill somebody, then he's just plainly wrong.



more like it is about proving that he can



> Because he killed rose and kensei using his  imagination.



can you post scans?

if he indeed killed directly by targeting their existence and not by proxy in this case, then all this would have been avoided if this proof was presented in the first place

like I have been asking



EntangledHive said:


> Creating life *is* affecting a character's existence you nutcase



again...

creating a *new existence* and affecting an *already existing character*... do you see the difference?

the fact that he can do one, does not mean that he can do the other

saying that he can is as retarded as saying that since Danzo can overwrite his own death, he can overwrite another character's death



> Are you really going to pretend that you denied that you were asking me to prove a negative? Because that's all this is, asking me to prove a negative.  Asking me to prove that his power's do *not* depend on the extent which his creations affect reality.  You have to prove they are dependent on that in the first place.  I've already explained that the action itself and the resulting effect of the action are two different things.  It would be fair if you wanted to argue about things like energy expenditure or scale, but you want to argue about "reality" by pretending "affects on reality" is some measurable concept.



I just posted what exactly I've asked you to prove. And I think that I've made it perfectly clear that all I want from you is for you to post proof that it works in a certain way, that he can turn hearts and barins and hearts into cookies, that it was CIS/PIS, everything that you have claimed. I don't care *about it not working other ways*, all I want is the proof that you've repeatedly stated you posses. To properly defend your position. Nothing else.

Seriously... the fact that proving it works in a certain way, also proves it does not work in any other ways by default... is not a legit reason to not provide proof of validity of your position.

and really.. I understand that you got a penchant for straw men but this is too much



> Better idea.



no no no, stop trying to wiggle out of it

you've made several accusations - back them up

otherwise you are once again proving that you are full of shit



> Go read the chapters and then come back.  You have no right to make proclamations about manga chapters you haven't even read.



what the fuck... 

you realize as the one who's position is challenged it is your job, your responsibility to provide any proof at your disposal that supports your position and not send your opponent to look for it for himself 

if you don't even understand that, then what the hell are you doing here?



> That makes a lot of sense.  It's only rational that if a boxer continues punching the torso and doesn't go for any other part, he isn't capable of striking any other body part.
> ..
> 
> Before you try to get cute with "B-but reality warping is different" know this.
> ...



a certain part as in he has not shown to affect the whole body completely when affecting an already extisting character (though he did that this chapter with him "imagining" himself to be stronger than Kenny)

like a boxer can punch the face, the torso but can't punch the whole body because... his fist is not big enough

is that clear enough to you?



> Wouldn't you of all people have to admit that in order to apply some mundane limitation to a reality warper, that limitation would have to be explicitly described in the manga?



what the hell

so you are saying that if the author did not give any limitations to an ability, then we can't apply limitations to it? 



> Dem mental gymnastics
> 
> If you replaced "looking deeper" with "making shit up" then you'd be right.
> 
> Seriously, I have no reason to respond to any of this.  You're so desperate to be right that you've resorted to baseless "well, what if.." assertions.  Stick to the panels.  *Stick with the hypothesis that requires the least assumptions*.



and that's what I'm doing?

the simplest solution is that it is similar to other feats he has shown, no?

if those previously shown feats in question are making a shoulder blow up and turning someone's bones into cookies, then as far as targeting a character's existence and killing them directly is concerned... it is similar to the previously shown turning bones into cookies feat, no?

saying that it's actually something above what he was shown to do in that regard would be making an assumption

now if he did indeed kill someone directly by targeting their existence before or after, then yes - it is reasonable to assume that he did the same here



> hahah
> 
> At least pay attention, you're literally saying the exact same thing I was before.  Remember?  I said that you're claim that a cookie brain means automatic death isn't necessarily true for a character with the right attributes.  In this case the character clearly could not resist it, so they were blown to pieces, so it's just as much of a guaranteed death as a cookie brain.



and I said that your example does not work for the reasons I've already stated


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 24, 2014)

Actually he also killed the old stern ritter with his imagination.

*Spoiler*: __


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 24, 2014)

that is the feat we are already discussing, Zenith

considering the feat is not really clear:



			
				me said:
			
		

> the simplest solution is that it is similar to other feats he has shown, no?
> 
> if those previously shown feats in question are making a shoulder blow up and turning someone's bones into cookies, then as far as targeting a character's existence and killing them directly is concerned... it is similar to the previously shown turning bones into cookies feat, no?
> 
> ...


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## Darth Niggatron (Apr 24, 2014)

Killing people weaker than Kenpachi doesn't mean shit. Why didn't he kill Kenpachi like that, then? CIS/PIS? Prove it.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 24, 2014)

I don't really feel that the feats are in need of much scrutiny and debate.
It's pretty straightforward, he imagined that the old guy has no future.= he exploded.
He imagined that kensei and rose are dead = they are dead.



> Killing people weaker than Kenpachi doesn't mean shit. Why didn't he kill Kenpachi like that, then? CIS/PIS? Prove it.


Ask kubo.


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## Zern227 (Apr 24, 2014)

Can you even turn CIS/PIS off a character who's power is imagination based. Imagination is entirely CIS.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 24, 2014)

Why didn't aizen kill ichigo when they first met?


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 24, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> I don't really feel that the feats are in need of much scrutiny and debate.
> It's pretty straightforward, he imagined that the old guy has no future.= he exploded.
> He imagined that kensei and rose are dead = they are dead.



without scrutiny and debate NLF gets born 

I'm guessing it's not really clear what he did with Rose and Kensei as well, right?

still, can you post everything related to that feat?



> Ask kubo.







Zern227 said:


> Can you even turn CIS/PIS off a character who's power is imagination based. Imagination is entirely CIS.



that's actually a good point


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## Fujita (Apr 24, 2014)

Zern227 said:


> Can you even turn CIS/PIS off a character who's power is imagination based. Imagination is entirely CIS.



What

of course you can 

You manufacture "imagination" when you let a character, say, use electromagnetic waves to fry somebody's brain instead of just tossing around metal like they usually would in a fight (because the brain thing they once used on a guy is just too dangerous ) 

Nothing's intrinsically different about how we treat Gremmy


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## Darth Niggatron (Apr 24, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Ask kubo.



Good counter.
Gremmy can do only the things he's been shown to do.
?Change an opponent's bones to cookies via touch.
?Create minions.
Create a meteor kilometers in the air.
?Create a vacuum.
?Kill character's weaker than Kenpachi via some unknown means.
?Create weapons.
And stuff related to these.


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 24, 2014)

Fujita said:


> What
> 
> of course you can
> 
> ...



I think what he is saying is that imagination is too dependant on the knowledge the character has, his understanding of it and his ability to think creatively. So switching off CIS might be considered as buffing up his ability to imagine, and as a result - his ability to turn his imagination into reality.

In this case the line between "what the character can do" and "what could I do" with this power gets really blury.


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## Zern227 (Apr 24, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> I think what he is saying that imagination is too dependant on the knowledge the character has, his understanding of it and his ability to think creatively. So switching off CIS might be considerd as buffing up his ability to imagine, and as a result - his ability to turn his imagination into reality.
> 
> In this case the line between "what the character can do" and "what could I do" with this power gets really blury.



That's pretty much that I was trying to say. Couldn't really word it correctly in my head.

In Gremmy's case turning of CIS will change his powers entirely. Everything he's been shown to do is because of CIS and if we take that away your essentially giving him more powers than he actually has shown.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 24, 2014)

What?
If it is within the scope of his powers then why not?
CIS off just means he won't be a moron and won't hold back on just cookiefing(lol) his enemies.


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 24, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Well, afaik death hax and the like only gets NLF when you say that a character would be dead even if he has resistance against it.
> 
> If you don't? Then no dice.
> The level of argument is as dumb as arguing a character with space time fuckery can't cut a person with petaton level durability because their general level of feats are just building level.



but it's not death hax or transmutation or whatever

it is reality warping and he is affecting a character's existence directly with his powers, so naturally the extent said existence gets affected and how should be looked upon too

the only thing that can be argued is that Gremmy's reality warping only focuses on the material aspects of reality, ignoring everything else like existence etc

or that he actually can affect someone's existence to the extent of killing him directly



> Yeah it's not pretty clear, but he is showcasing his powers so it's more than likely that he just imagined that they're dead.



what is more likely that it is similar to other feats he has shown, in all aspects



> That's pretty much it.
> He showed out of the blue, then he tells the girl that rose and kensei are already dead.



I see


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## Zern227 (Apr 24, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> What?
> If it is within the scope of his powers then why not?
> CIS off just means he won't be a moron and won't hold back on just cookiefing(lol) his enemies.



The problem with turning CIS off is that it effect the way he think thus altering his powers immensely. Without CIS your taking away weakness imagination based powers have. It also changes it from what Gremmy imagines to what we think Gremmy can imagine. 

Do you see my point?


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## tkpirate (Apr 24, 2014)

dose turning CIS off allow a person to think more creatively?


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## 1Person (Apr 24, 2014)

Not more creatively, just more effectively. Gremmy without CIS wouldn't do something as dumb as not keeping at least one clone around in case things go south.


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 24, 2014)

the problem with "more effectively" is that it can easily turn into "more creatively"


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## Aphelion (Apr 24, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> again...
> 
> creating a *new existence* and affecting an *already existing character*... do you see the difference?
> 
> ...


If you're really gonna make his limitations that arbitary, then why the fuck stop there?  Are you going to tell me he can't create water around a bunch of lithium because the reaction is an effect on reality he hasn't shown before?  Are you going to tell me he can't manipulate earth where it will cause a landslide because that's not an effect on reality he's shown before?

Life for the intents and purposes of this debate is nothing more than chemistry, so this is nothing more than a special pleading argument.  Besides he wouldn't even be directly erasing life.  Turning vital organs into cookies is not "erasing life".  Saying "you're dead" and the person is dead would be erasing life.

Oh, and what a terrible analogy.  Danzo's power functions for that specifically stated purpose.




> I just posted what exactly I've asked you to prove And I think that I've made it perfectly clear that all I want from you is for you to post proof that it works in a certain way, that he can turn hearts and barins and hearts into cookies, that it was CIS/PIS, everything that you have claimed. I don't care *about it not working other ways*, all I want is the proof that you've repeatedly stated you posses. To properly defend your position. Nothing else.


What don't you understand about the concept of magical transmutation?  A material needs  specific feats/attributes in order to resist it.  Brains and hearts do not have these these attributes(unless stated otherwise in the fiction).  It not being CIS would be contradictory.  If there was no CIS that means he would have tried to use it, which he didn't.

Now for the umpteenth time.  Prove to me his power is limited in the way your crackpot theory says it is.  Of course you'll never be able to, but maybe if I ask the question enough times reality will dawn on you.





> a certain part as in he has not shown to affect the whole body completely when affecting an already extisting character (though he did that this chapter with him "imagining" himself to be stronger than Kenny)
> like a boxer can punch the face, the torso but can't punch the whole body because... his fist is not big enough
> 
> is that clear enough to you?



Oh so now it's just the whole body .  Your dishonest tactics are becoming increasingly see through.  You just applied an irrelevant detail from my analogy to try to prove a point in regards to reality warping.  I have no words.







> what the hell
> 
> so you are saying that if the author did not give any limitations to an ability, then we can't apply limitations to it?



If the limitation is arbitrary and can be dismissed with Occam's razor, then yes.





> if those previously shown feats in question are making a shoulder blow up and turning someone's bones into cookies, then as far as targeting a character's existence and killing them directly is concerned... it is similar to the previously shown turning bones into cookies feat, no?



So you're trying to say that him turning specific parts of flesh into some sort of invisible nameless explosive that doesn't produce any sort of fire or smoke and can affect specific parts of the body without causing additional collateral damage is more likely than oh say...*imagining he exploded*.


See a doctor.




> and I said that your example does not work for the reasons I've already stated


They're the *exact same concept* you moron.

A person with sufficient durability/regen could survive Gremmy trying to blast them apart.

A person who could survive losing a brain/heart could survive having those organs being turned into cookies.

If the character in question lacks these attributes, than both of these actions "target their existence" to the exact same degree.


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## 1Person (Apr 24, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> the problem with "more effectively" is that it can easily turn into "more creatively"


True , I guess what I meant was he won't spawn things more creatively (he won't suddenly be able to imagine things he hasn't shown on panel) but he would his already shown abilities more effectively like spamming meteors instead of giving up while. Kenpachi was busy with just one.


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 24, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> his limitations that arbitary



they are arbitrary only to you

creating new life does not mean you can can affect an already existing life, much less end it

that's not an arbitary limitation, that is going by what he has shown to do, *what* he was shown to be able to affect and *how* and not arbitrary assuming that he can do something else that he hasn't shown to do

serisouly... NLF... try to grasp it

and also again, try to understand the difference between the extent of reality warping itself and side consequences 



> Oh, and what a terrible analogy.  Danzo's power functions for that specifically stated purpose.



alright that's true in this case, should have picked a better one but whatever

but what if his powers weren't stated to work only on himself, but his feats only consisted of using it on himself

would he have been able to use them on anyone else?



> What don't you understand about the concept of magical transmutation?



again with the shooting down your argument, I can't believe you are stupid enough to do the same retarded thing you've done 7 pages ago 

if it was transmutation, then he wouldn't be able to transform something other than bones into cookies at all, because other organs and tissue consist of entirely different chemicals that he has not shown to be able to transmute/transform



> Oh so now it's just the whole body .  Your dishonest tactics are becoming increasingly see through.  You just applied an irrelevant detail from my analogy to try to prove a point in regards to reality warping.  I have no words.



it isn't now, it was always the case

the fact that you are unable to even try to understand what your opponent is saying and jump to conclusions and/or try to distort his arguments is not my problem



> Now for the umpteenth time.  Prove to me his power is limited in the way your crackpot theory says it is.  Of course you'll never be able to, but maybe if I ask the question enough times reality will dawn on you.



again with shifting the burden of proof on me 

and again with distorting my argument:



DarkTorrent said:


> > still not understanding that reality warping *can be limited* by the effect it has on a character



this is me challenging your position, not me claiming that *it is* limited

I've never even claimed that *it is limited* only that *it can be limited* as a way to demonstrate that it could have very well been due to a limitation and not due to CIS/PIS

I don't have to prove that your calims are wrong, you have to prove that your claims are right

you understand?

you are claiming that he can turn hearts and brains into cookies, not me

it is your job to prove it

you are claiming that it works in a certain way, not me

it is your job to prove it

you are claiming that it was CIS, not me

it is your job to prove it

with scans and not words "oh it was shown" and "look for them yourself lol"

so... considering all you have been doing is shifting the burden of proof on me, distorting and attacking my position, attacking my person and generally herping and derping instead of actually defending your position should I consider you a lost cause and simply give up?

For god's sake, Bleach is a setting that revolves around souls and spirits, spiritual energy, spiritual particles and afterlife like dimensions, where objects and beings consist of said spiritual particles and there's even a Grand Design of sorts IIRC. So metaphysics is as much, if not more, of a fundamental aspect of "reality" in Bleach as material aspect.

And Gremmy's ability was affecting beings that in-verse are classified as souls and consist of spiritual particles, and this very chapter he targeted his own existence and attempted (and failed spectaculary) to alter it to become stronger than Kenpachi, which involved him gaining more reiatsu, a fictional metaphysical energy, out of thin air

what is chemical about that?


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## Aphelion (Apr 24, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> they are arbitrary only to you
> 
> creating new life does not mean you can can affect an already existing life, much less end it
> 
> ...



Since you missed it.



> then why the fuck stop there? Are you going to tell me he can't create water around a bunch of lithium because the reaction is an effect on reality he hasn't shown before? Are you going to tell me he can't manipulate earth where it will cause a landslide because that's not an effect on reality he's shown before?
> 
> Life for the intents and purposes of this debate is nothing more than chemistry, so this is nothing more than a special pleading argument. Besides he wouldn't even be directly erasing life. Turning vital organs into cookies is not "erasing life". Saying "you're dead" and the person is dead would be erasing life.





> and also again, try to understand the difference between the extent of reality warping itself and side consequences


Death resulting from a cookified brain is a consequence, not an extent of the the reality warping. 




> alright that's true in this case, should have picked a better one but whatever
> 
> but what if his powers weren't stated to work only on himself, but his feats only consisted of using it on himself
> 
> would he have been able to use them on anyone else?



If he wasn't shown to be able to affect the fate of anything but himself, then the answer is no.

However if he is shown to be capable of extending the ability to the outside world(like if he was able to revert a large shattered vase to it's prior condition via reality warping) then he should be able to.





> if it was transmutation, then he wouldn't be able to transform something other than bones into cookies at all, because other organs and tissue consist of entirely different chemicals that he has not shown to be able to transmute/transform


Good job dodging the question.

It's important to know the definition of words before you criticize them.  Transmutation just means changing one thing into another, period.  Also the key word is magical.  Gremmy's power operates under no known science, so something like magically transforming one thing into another cannot be resisted without specific feats.



> it isn't now, it was always the case.


No, we were talking about specific body parts, mainly the brain.  The point of the boxer analogy is that he should be able to strike any part of the body.  And given that Gremmy has feats of manipulating innards, the same goes for him.



> the fact that you are unable to even try to understand what your opponent is saying and jump to conclusions and/or try to distort his arguments is not my problem


[sp][/sp]



Since the rest of your post is just you regurgitating the same drivel rather than actually addressing my points, I'll re-post them.



> A material needs specific feats/attributes in order to resist it. Brains and hearts do not have these these attributes(unless stated otherwise in the fiction). It not being CIS would be contradictory. If there was no CIS that means he would have tried to use it, which he didn't.





> So you're trying to say that him turning specific parts of flesh into some sort of invisible nameless explosive that doesn't produce any sort of fire or smoke and can affect specific parts of the body without causing additional collateral damage is more likely than oh say...imagining he exploded.





> They're the exact same concept you moron.
> 
> A person with sufficient durability/regen could survive Gremmy trying to blast them apart.
> 
> ...


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 24, 2014)

So basically it's pointless 



> Transmutation just means changing one thing into another, period.


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## Aphelion (Apr 24, 2014)

> For god's sake, Bleach is a setting that revolves around souls and spirits, spiritual energy, spiritual particles and afterlife like dimensions, where objects and beings consist of said spiritual particles and there's even a Grand Design of sorts IIRC. So metaphysics is as much, if not more, of a fundamental aspect of "reality" in Bleach as material aspect.



This is why you shouldn't talk about a manga you don't follow.  Spiritual beings in Bleach are shown to have basically the same biology as a normal living organism.


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## DarkTorrent (Apr 24, 2014)

Which doesn't change the fact that all things I've listed are a fundamental aspect of "reality" in Bleach ...

...which was my point


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