# Ōnoki vs. Mei & Tsunade



## Rocky (Jan 8, 2016)

*Location:* Grass Field
*Distance:* 10m
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Mindset:* IC


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## wooly Eullerex (Jan 8, 2016)

onoki wins

he occupies the duo w/ golems & clones, then picks them off w/ jin'ton


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 8, 2016)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> onoki wins
> 
> he occupies the duo w/ golems & clones, then picks them off w/ jin'ton



 Byakugou Tsunade busts through that shit relatively easily.


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## Dr. White (Jan 8, 2016)

Onooki is forced off bat to defend from the immediate Water Draon coming in his grill with some large scale Doton, tsunade rushes in with yin Seal and bust through his Doton. He can't get in the air because Mei will just combo him and Tsunade can ensure she can just cast all day. They can also keep him occupied and hit him with Fuuton while Tsunade just tanks it.

Onooki's only chance is escaping to the air for clear Jinton shot, and that isn't happening with Mei's suiton.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 8, 2016)

He can just increase the weight of the water making it collapse or turn it to stone through touch. 

He'll get above... then toy with them for a bit until he realizes he can't get it up anymore and ends them.


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## Bringer (Jan 8, 2016)

The distance is 32 feet...

Tsunade body flickers at Onoki, he starts to fl- giant water dragon gets him from above.

If he does get in the air than Mei puts up hidden mist. He'll be shooting blindly. Tsunade summons Katsuyu as a diversion to give Mei an opening to knock him out of the sky with water dragon.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 8, 2016)

The distance was closer for 5 Madara clones, and when they were in V3 Legged Susano he touched them weighing them all down without receiving a wound.

Old man gets above or hangs below and solos with his reactions and finger tips.


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## Kinjishi (Jan 8, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> He can just increase the weight of the water making it collapse or turn it to stone through touch.
> 
> He'll get above... then toy with them for a bit until he realizes he can't get it up anymore and ends them.



Turn water to stone?


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## Amol (Jan 8, 2016)

^ yeah I also didn't know Onoki had powers to turn water into stone.
OT : Duo should win.
Onoki's dust release is famous and because of that I think Mei would immediately set up Mist maybe even Acid Mist to obscure his vision to avoid direct Jinton shot.
Old Man can try to blindly Jinton them which would only result in Chakra loss.
Nero
Mei can give him lot of water clones for target practice.
Acid Mist will affect him sooner or later (if he brings out Golem to protect him but even Golem would melt in the end).
Then Tsunade with lot of distraction thanks to Mei lands a hit (assuming Mei can control the area of effect of Acid Mist, though Byakugou Tsunade probably won't even notice/need it while she busts Onoki with his Golem).


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## Ersa (Jan 8, 2016)

Onoki is above Tsunade but not by a large margin and definitely nowhere near the point where adding another Kage won't tip the scales. At this distance, a combination of Katsuyu, large Suitons and Tsunade AOE punches should nab them a opening for the win.


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## Veracity (Jan 9, 2016)

. Onnoki gets hit by a supercharged suiton the size of the juubi. He gets destroyed by 2 Gokage members. We all know how this battle would go if written in the manga.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 9, 2016)

Jinton kills both of them in one clean shot .


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## Itachі (Jan 9, 2016)

Onoki flys back and evaporates them with Jinton.


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## Dr. White (Jan 9, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Onoki flys



You spelled "straight into the mouth of a Suiton Dragon" wrong.


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

People think Mei can blitz Ōnoki with a water dragon?


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## Itachі (Jan 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> You spelled "straight into the mouth of a Suiton Dragon" wrong.



I don't think she's going to be fast enough to get him, he certainly has enough time to fly away. Even if you think he can't, he could still use a golem to protect himself.


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## Dr. White (Jan 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> People think Mei can blitz Ōnoki with a water dragon?



She intercepted a Katon from Madara, and immediately turned it into a Dragon to hit Susanoo Madara  , plus there were some other feats she had that were quite beast. Her hand speed is almost Itachi tier bruh.


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## Dr. White (Jan 9, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I don't think she's going to be fast enough to get him, he certainly has enough time to fly away. Even if you think he can't, he could still use a golem to protect himself.


A.) His dotons are dwarfed by her Dragons which sent Susanoo flying GG, Onooki and his Doton.
B.) By the time he goes to fly after recovering tsunade is on his ass from 10 m. 

GG.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 9, 2016)

Byakugou Tsunade offers fantastic support as she can bust through Onoki's Wood Golem while Mei can pressure him Suiton. The Hidden Mist can evade aid in blocking his LoS, so it would be disadvantageous for Onoki to use Jinton on the off-chance that he misses and runs out of Stamina. Regardless, under normal conditions, I don't see Onoki flying away. He didn't do so against Madara, and he absolutely despised it when Deidara used that same tactic against him.


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

Why can't Ōnoki just dodge the dragon while flying upwards...


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## Itachі (Jan 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> A.) His dotons are dwarfed by her Dragons which sent Susanoo flying GG, Onooki and his Doton.
> B.) By the time he goes to fly after recovering tsunade is on his ass from 10 m.
> 
> GG.



Maybe I need to take a look at Mei's feats 

brb


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## Dr. White (Jan 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Why can't Ōnoki just dodge the dragon while flying upwards...



BEcause it forms in a second and crossed a huge distance faster than he's been seen flying, and had enoug force to push back susanoo, and AOE to completely swallow it whole.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Why can't Ōnoki just dodge the dragon while flying upwards...



 Under normal circumstances, he's not really going to be starting off in mid-air and from 10m and no real way of preempting her high hand seal speed, he might not fly up in time. I can see how he would later on in the fight of course, but I can't see him constantly trying to pressure his the duo in mid-air. If he wants to do anything meaningful aside from Jinton which is a taxing technique, he's going to have to get in closer range which leaves him susceptible to Mei's Ninjutsu.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 9, 2016)

water dragon is a non factor here , Onoki just instantly vaporize it wirh Jinton and turn it to kill both of the two ladies .


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 9, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> water dragon is a non factor here , Onoki just instantly vaporize it wirh Jinton and turn it to kill both of the two ladies .



 Onoki was never portrayed as the guy who can trash 2 Kage Level ninja effortlessly.


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

He's as fast in the air as Deidara, who literally dodged a tidal wave of sand the size of Suna. He flies circles around Mei's water dragon. She is not lolsniping his shit out of midair.


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## Itachі (Jan 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> He's as fast in the air as Deidara, who literally dodged a tidal wave of sand the size of Suna. He flies circles around Mei's water dragon. She is not lolsniping his shit out of midair.



Actually looking at Mei's feats though, she is pretty fast.



She's not getting him (easily) while he's flying around but as UchihaX28 said, he's not likely to fly upwards right in the beginning.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> He's as fast in the air as Deidara, who literally dodged a tidal wave of sand the size of Suna. He flies circles around Mei's water dragon. She is not lolsniping his shit out of midair.



 While impressive, the sand itself isn't as fast as what many skilled ninja are capable of in the manga. Joki Boy ran circles around Gaara's Sand and was even faster than his Gourd Sand.


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> While impressive, the sand itself isn't as fast as what many skilled ninja are capable of in the manga. Joki Boy ran circles around Gaara's Sand and was even faster than his Gourd Sand.



I don't have much of a reason to believe Mei's water dragon so fast that it's going to do better than Suna-Tidal Wave no Jutsu when it comes to hitting the Tsuchikage. Joki Boy has nothing to do with Mei, and her only feat with the water dragon is tagging a Madara clad in Susanoo who was focused on Tsaunde.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> BEcause it forms in a second and crossed a huge distance faster than he's been seen flying, and had enoug force to push back susanoo, and AOE to completely swallow it whole.



 And Byakugou Tsunade's Chakra enhances it even further.


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> And Byakugou Tsunade's Chakra enhances it even further.



Oh please. If they do that, it's a rather gaping opening for Ōnoki to just fling Genkai Hakuri at them and call it a day.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 9, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Onoki was never portrayed as the guy who can trash 2 Kage Level ninja effortlessly.


Onoki is high mid Kage tier , so yeah he can crush one low mid Kage and another low Kage tier , both of the ladies can't dodge nore stop Jinton so....


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## Dr. White (Jan 9, 2016)

Mandy and friend put that work in on Billy from this Distance


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2016)

Onoki takes this mid diff at most.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> He's as fast in the air as Deidara, who literally dodged a tidal wave of sand the size of Suna.



Gaara didn't hurl that entire quantity of sand at Deidara at once.

It was kind of a village away.


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2016)

jinton GG 

low diff battle

yes Mei hand seal speed is nice, her suiton are cute. however golem can simply tank most of that

her suiton is also mostly featless damage wise, so wouldn't help them much here

also all onoki needs to do is laser jinton which they cant dodge, block or do anyting against 

low diff and not neg diff because he has to use jinton which is a taxing jutsu


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Gaara didn't hurl that entire quantity of sand at Deidara at once.
> 
> It was kind of a village away.



It looks like he turned most of it into sand arms and flung them at Deidara.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 9, 2016)

If you put all of those sand arms in the air together they're still not nearly as large as the initial wave, which would probably be because he didn't use the entire thing at once.

He acted similarly against the Edo Kage.


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

Well that sand had to fall somewhere lol. If he didn't fling it at Deidara, then why lift it at all?


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## FlamingRain (Jan 9, 2016)

He might've simply moved it around the village so that he could pull it from wherever necessary, as necessary.

Or something.

Not even Kūsa Bōheki used that much sand, and even it was seemingly pulled from the outskirts.


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

I guess that's possible. Still, what Deidara actually dodged was larger than any of Mei's dragons.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 9, 2016)

It doesn't look larger to me.

Look at Deidara compared to that hand on the page before, then remember how many times the size of Tsunade that Katon Madara blew at her was and how many times the size of that Katon the Suiton Mei blocked it with was _(1)_


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I guess that's possible. Still, what Deidara actually dodged was larger than any of Mei's dragons.



 Doesn't look like it. Mei's Suiton looks much larger in comparison to Madara's Rib Cage Susano'o.


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

Mei's Dragon doesn't even look larger than a single one of Gaara's hands, let alone three of them. [1]


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## ATastyMuffin (Jan 10, 2016)

3

Even Kakashi/Zabuza's Suiryūdan look better than Mei's, to be honest. They were never impressive to begin with; Mei's one good feat with Suiton is intercepting Madara's Katon when before it hit Tsunade.


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## Dr. White (Jan 10, 2016)

No they dont.

Mei's can travel (while being formed from just her body) freaking dozens of meters while being longer, and more concentrated than theirs. Madara's katons took a whole suiton division to tackle, Mei put his shit out, and still had enough to form that Dragon 

Why is there even a Diedara comparison? Her Dragons are the same size if not larger than those hands, they have been used to tag a much more reactive person, and Mei is starting 10m away from Onooki, while both start grounded, and has Tsunade as a major distraction here.

Gaara and Diedara were dozens of meters away from eachother, in the air, and Diedara started already in the Air IIRC and those claws still caught up to him. Why would that  even be comparable? Note how Gaara can only accomplish that scale in a desert, while Mei can do the same shit with water in a desert.

_To make a long story short_
Onooki gets that Selma treatment.


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2016)

so if the suiton hits onoki 

what happens exactly?

its featless damage wise


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## FlamingRain (Jan 10, 2016)

Kakashi and Zabuza performed those Suitons in the middle of a river, and they still didn't look larger than the first Suiton Mei used, which she should be able to make a Suiryūdan at least as large as because she performed it against Madara by transforming the initial Suijinchū Tobirama-style.




> what happens exactly?



He might be spat right into Tsunade...


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2016)

Oh Kk 
So that's about it then 

An attack used to help Tsunade land a hit

Luckily onoki has the speed and tactics to manoeveur around 5 susanoo


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> so if the suiton hits onoki
> 
> what happens exactly?
> 
> its featless damage wise



Link removed

 Knocks him off his feet. Unfortunately for Onoki, Zabuza doesn't have back problems, so the mere impact from a massive Suiton pushing him at high speeds is literally going to snap his back. Take into account that Onoki's mass is lightened considerably, so he's going to be flying at even higher speeds and is going to sustain more damage overall.


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## Icegaze (Jan 11, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> [2]
> 
> Knocks him off his feet. Unfortunately for Onoki, Zabuza doesn't have back problems, so the mere impact from a massive Suiton pushing him at high speeds is literally going to snap his back. Take into account that Onoki's mass is lightened considerably, so he's going to be flying at even higher speeds and is going to sustain more damage overall.



The scan and the suiton she used are 2 different jutsu 

Regardless all that jutsu did was knock zabuza to a tree 

Zabuza failed to defend himself . Onoki uses a golem and laughs it off 

Water dragon is a fairly weak jutsu which hasn't amounted to anytbinf worth mentioning

You do raise a good point about onoki light weight jutsu , now if he sees such an attack coming can't he make himself so heavy that the water simply wouldn't move him ?

This guy could make a meteor light enough to stop it from falling 

So he could just make himself so heavy the water crashes into him and doesn't send him flying 

If u think that breaks him , he makes his rock golem so heavy the water jutsu can't move it . Doton > suiton 

Thereby defeating the featless water dragon


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## FlamingRain (Jan 11, 2016)

Because if Ohnoki makes himself super heavy so the water doesn't send him anywhere, he'd drop to the ground like a rock, and Tsunade would destroy him like one.


Also, Mei might be able to flex the Suiton around the golem.


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## Rocky (Jan 11, 2016)

He could probably just make a golem that punches the dragon in the face. That would do the trick. The problem would be when Tsunade then picks up the golem and throws it at Ōnoki. It's probably going to be going too fast to dodge, so he'd have to laser beam it. When he goes to do that, he gets hit with lava from behind. Then the golem slams into him. Then the golem rubble~molten Ōnoki fusion gets covered in some more lava. If he didn't leave a clone before building the golem, he'd probably die by building the golem.


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## Dr. White (Jan 11, 2016)

maybe if his jutsu execution was anywhere near as speedy as Mei's.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 11, 2016)

Onoki's only real chance is to erase them both with Eternal Disco Fever, and that's unlikely.  More often than not Mei is going to start with offencive jutsu and Onoki is going to be put on the defensive.  The scope of Mei's jutsu are large and fast and fluid, and don't put it past her to make them dance like Kakashi and Zabuza and the databooks say they can by their very nature.  The defence to this is either Onoki try to fly in trick circles which leaves him open to Tsunade, or put up a rock beast that Tsunade beasts through.  He could also try to jinton through it or use a delete cube shield, but it's going to break his line of sight and it won't protect from other attacks like Mei's water spout or lava flows dropping down on his head from above, or a dragon curving around.  It also gives his back to Tsunade he can't see, and he had a habit of being still when he jintons... Regardless of whether or not that's a real limitation or a trope.  

So his best option really is to use dotons, and for that he needs a connection to the ground, which is a terrible place to be against Tsunade.  Supposing he does escape and through the air, Mei can blind him and attack with accuracy and near impunity with Tsunade there to recharge her or super charge her, while Onoki is both blind and cut off from the earth he needs to defend.  This means he either gets a lucky shot in the proverbial dark early, gets chomped, or blows his stamina using jinton to defend against suitons he may not be able to even defend against.  As far as out of character options go, he could dive underground and camp, or try to shoot jintons guided by doton sensing from underground, but more than likely Tsunade smashes the ground as he makes his decent and dies, either by getting ejected into another fist or Mei's lava hot follow up blankets, or crushed in a cave in.

Hitting both with jinton or hitting blind are both lucky with next to nil odds, and pretty much any other scenario ends decisively in Yuri for fun and ??? PROFIT.  Furthermore, I think Kishi would have the pair win, and even just eyeballing placement and standing I'm inclined to say that even if Onoki is higher, he's not so much that adding even a low kage to Tsunade's team would tip the balance, and personal place Tsunade as at least about equal, and Mei as mid-kage, so no dice to the old man who has it bad both ways.  In light of this, I have no choice but to vote for *Team Tsumei*, even if I don't enjoy the pairing.  Inohina wins my vote for the superior Yuri pairing.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 11, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> As far as out of character options go, he could dive underground and camp, or try to shoot jintons guided by doton sensing from underground.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 11, 2016)

Using a Doton technique while using Jinton? Seems rather strenuous honestly.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 11, 2016)

> Doton: Kajugan no Jutsu is the name of the technique Onoki uses to make stuff really heavy (he uses the opposite to make himself light enough to float). I think the anime made it look like Onoki turned the Zetsu to stone rather than just made it so heavy that it fell off and couldn't move. At the time they animated it, it was still unclear that Onoki was using weight manipulation for mostly everything, and I think the anime team misinterpreted the panel because it's unclear with the golem's rocky body being mixed in, trying to eat Zetsu. Onoki uses that same jutsu many more times later on, and it never looks like he's petrifying anyone.


The panel clearly shows the White Zetsu being petrified, do you not see rock cracking off his body?



The anime has nothing to do with it other than confirming what I'm seeing in the panel.

Onoki can touch the water dragon and instantly transform it into stone, sending it crashing to the ground, then fly up, and nuke both of them.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 11, 2016)

*@ Empathy *It has to be bigger than the Susano that got chomped unless you imagine it absorbing the dragon like Preta Path, and he might need to lighten it to not get drug down by the weight, and if mist is up he has to react to something he can't see.  But yes, he should be able to spit golems like his student but better.  By I also think it's better, faster, and cheaper to use existing Earth.


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## Empathy (Jan 11, 2016)

Doton beats suiton though, so I'd envision the dragon being negated from animating further after colliding with the doton wall. I guess something similar to Hiruzen's doton versus Tobirama's suiton would happen. Doesn't Mei have to create the water source for the dragon first? I'd have trouble believing Mei could spit out a significantly better suiton than Onoki could spit a doton. They're both Kage who specialize in combining multiple elements, but major in suiton and doton respectively, so Mei would have to vastly outclass him in aptitude to surmount an elemental disadvantage.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 11, 2016)

When did Sarutobi's Doton prevent Tobirama's Suiton from animating further?


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## Empathy (Jan 11, 2016)

It stopped after hitting the wall didn't it?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 11, 2016)

If the golem is inside the mouth when they touch what happens?

Do you think Onoki can make a proper enough last second golem to defeat a dragon from Mei that's fully formed and at max speed?  What if it was sourced by a water spout or previous suitons?  What if its a byako charged dragon?  What if its it's both?  How consistently can he do that?  If he does it right every time, who's stamina will run out first?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 11, 2016)

Empathy said:


> It stopped after hitting the wall didn't it?



It splash and crashed and the water ran everywhere I thought.  I think Onoki would still get a gravity powered giant water balloon dropped on his head.  There's half a dragon head above him that just collapsed and stopped. But maybe it wouldn't just because even if it should.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 11, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> It splash and crashed and the water ran everywhere I thought.



 That's what happened. The structure was strong enough to resist the Suiton, so it dispersed outwards instead.


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## Saru (Jan 11, 2016)

Onoki has three major advantages over Tsunade and Mei: flight, elemental advantage, and AoE. In terms of grounded combat, Tsunade and Mei have the advantage, as Mei can use long range Suiton to pressure Onoki while Tsunade chases Onoki down and attempts to strike him down. However, it would be naive to think that the kunoichi's advantage would play much of a factor in this fight when one considers that Onoki spends a majority of his time in the air IC, let alone the obvious advantage Onoki has by avoiding the ground. 

Since Onoki will be spending a majority of his time in the air, I am inclined to believe that Mei will be putting in significantly more work than Tsunade in this fight in terms of offense, whereas Tsunade will most likely play a more supportive role by replenishing her teammate's chakra levels. Mei's Suiton should be fast enough to prevent Onoki from executing Jinton given that Onoki stands completely still when using the technique. Tsunade's raw power may be useful here for smashing through the defense of Onoki's Doton, but her attacks should essentially be a non-factor if Onoki is in the air. Onoki can easily control the pace of the match by flying in the air to essentially nullify Tsunade's offensive presence and force Mei to use long range Suiton which Onoki should easily be able to dodge.

Doton > Suiton; that's a fact. I'm inclined to believe that if Mei and Onoki did fight in the manga and Mei used Suiton, Onoki's elemental advantage would come into play. Onoki should be able to wall Mei's Suiton completely with Doton, as unlike in the case of Mei vs. Madara, Onoki has the elemental advantage, and Mei's Suiton doesn't have the raw strength to suggest that it could bust through Onoki's Doton with an elemental disadvantage. While it is true that Onoki would normally be better off using the ground as a medium for generating his Doton defense, he should be able to spit up a golem which can serve the same function. 

Onoki also has a frightening area of effect with Jinton, demonstrating the ability to obliterate a horde of Susano'o [1] with a single attack [2] provided that Onoki has a full (or near full) tank of chakra. Neither Mei or Tsunade have feats that suggest they could escape the range of this attack. That said, it will be difficult for Onoki to replicate such a feat here if Mei (with a Senju battery powering her) is using Suiton to preoccupy him. However, as mentioned, Onoki should be able to comfortably block Mei's Suiton with Doton. The sheer size of Onoki's Jinton allows him to completely bypass the screen of Mei's Mist, thereby neutering yet another part of Tsunade and Mei's arsenal.

***​
All things considered, I think the old geezer can take it (high difficulty). If he takes flight, he should be able to wall Mei's Suiton with Doton and respond with a Susano'o nuking Jinton to end the match (eventually). Tsunade's stamina and healing will be a problem for him, though.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 11, 2016)

Ohnoki was able to obliterate those Susano'o clones because Tsunade used the Chakra Transfer technique to amplify it with her knockoff Sage Mode.

That one Jinton was larger than every other Jinton Ohnoki used put together, and we've seen him reach the point where he had to use something besides Jinton due to how much Chakra it takes.

He wouldn't replicate that feat on his own.


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## Saru (Jan 11, 2016)

I tend to believe otherwise. All of the Kage were running low on chakra. I don't think Tsunade allowed Onoki to transcend his limits. Onoki never needed to use Jinton on a scale that massive before, and doing so would put a huge strain on him. This is a perfectly logical explanation that allows this feat to be possible for Onoki at full strength.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 11, 2016)

Normal Jinton alone was rather taxing on Onoki. I doubt he had the capacity to use a Massive Jinton that was many times larger than what he's usually capable of.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 11, 2016)

Would have been good to use against Mū or during the early stages of the fight with Madara, but it wouldn't really matter if he did or didn't because we've seen use up enough Chakra using a bunch of smaller Jinton that wouldn't add up to that one.

That is not something he would pull off all alone.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 11, 2016)

Obito said he couldn't reach Kaguya's dimensions without byako. Do you think that Obito was capable of warping through Kaguya's dimensions without byako boost?


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## Saru (Jan 11, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Would have been good to use against Mū or during the early stages of the fight with Madara, but it wouldn't really matter if he did or didn't because we've seen use up enough Chakra using a bunch of smaller Jinton that wouldn't add up to that one.
> 
> That is not something he would pull off all alone.




Against Mu, who is invisible? Not particularly. Madara can also regenerate rather quickly, and it's not like Madara gave him much of an opening.



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Obito said he couldn't reach Kaguya's dimensions without byako. Do you think that Obito was capable of warping through Kaguya's dimensions without byako boost?




Not in the state he was in, no. It's not even explicit that Tsunade "used" Byakugou on Onoki; that's just a fan assumption.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 11, 2016)

I doubt Mu's invisibility would aid against the massive range Jinton has which even Madara struggled evading.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 11, 2016)

What it really is is the more logical conclusion.

Mū being invisible is part of what would make it good to use against him. Invisible, not intangible. 

The larger an area something can cover the less accurate it needs to be to connect, so the smart thing for Ohnoki to do in that situation would have been to vaporize their general vicinity and then fly up to Mū when pieces of Edo Tensei confetti started forming again. At which point Ohnoki could apply the weight changing Jutsu before M? turned invisible again.

Madara regenerated the same as any other Edo Tensei.


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## Saru (Jan 12, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I doubt Mu's invisibility would aid against the massive range Jinton has which even Madara struggled evading.




A non-serious Madara without Susano'o would have been able to dodge it just fine. It was his slower clones (who were also closer to Onoki) who struggled, mainly.



FlamingRain said:


> What it really is is the more logical conclusion.
> 
> Mū being invisible is part of what would make it good to use against him. Invisible, not intangible.
> 
> ...




Onoki likely can't use Jinton to that extent under normal circumstances because doing so would leave him exhausted. Moreover, Jinton seems to have a requirement (or a penchant) of the user standing still in order to use it, and Mū could likely  counter-Jinton Onoki before the latter could ever attempt to box him in a mega-Jinton.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 12, 2016)

No, he was literally attempting to outrun Onoki's Byakugou Enhanced Jinton and got his arm blasted off. It was clearly shown that Madara needed his V4 Susano'o to escape the Gokage's combo, so he certainly was serious, but didn't want to resort to his strongest technique. Because then, that would literally imply that Madara would have to kill them rather than toy with them given his Susano'os hype. Then again, that's if V4 Susano'o = Complete Susano'o.


----------



## Saru (Jan 12, 2016)

Ah, the translation context I was referring to is kind of funky, so I misunderstood what Madara was saying. Nonetheless, Madara indicated that he was not getting serious until he pulled out PS.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 12, 2016)

Saru said:


> Onoki likely can't use Jinton to that extent under normal circumstances because doing so would leave him exhausted.



Ri~ght...

It's more like he can't do that because he'd turn himself into dust trying, though.


I'm going to keep repeating this until it actually gets answered- Ohnoki _already_ exhausted himself using Jintons that _combined_ would still not add up to the one he used with Tsunade.

We know that the large amounts of Chakra stocked with Byakugō can be transferred, so when Ohnoki is screaming _"more"_ instead of something like _"faster"_ and suddenly pulls out something ridiculously larger than what e's done before would the most reasonable conclusion not be that the old man was being pumped with extra juice by the lady who sustained a village twice over?


----------



## Saru (Jan 12, 2016)

,They fought for some time off panel and in fact the Tsuchikage did use a Jinton that was on a pretty large scale, with Onoki showing _no_ signs of fatigue after ,  using one. It can be assumed they used Jinton and other jutsu off-panel such as Iwabunshin no Jutsu..


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 12, 2016)

That's the result of _both_ Ohnoki and Mū's Jinton.

They did fight off panel but we can still see the aftermath of their fight around the field when we cut to them again later, where Ohnoki is fatigued and being asked if his age is catching up to him.

It still wouldn't add up to the mile wide Jinton used on the Mokubunshin army.


----------



## Saru (Jan 12, 2016)

the fact that the blast stemmed from the combination of their attacks is not particularly relevant, because as i said, Onoki was not tired *at all*. this suggests that he could do far more than what he did in that panel. but of course they're not going to go with an all out attack in a battle like this. 

and you're making arbitrary assumptions to support your argument. you can't say "there's no way it adds up" if you don''t have any idea what actually went on off-panel. if anything, the Iwabunshin and their very first exchange suggests that it was a Jinton-heavy battle, not to mention the fact that the entire point of Onoki being there was that "only a Jinton user can counter another Jinton user."


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 12, 2016)

Given how the battlefield wasn't deleted and there were two Jinton users shooting all of the Jinton at each other, I think it's fair to say it doesn't add up Hyper Cube.


----------



## Saru (Jan 12, 2016)

well, the Tsuchikage moved around, and they were fighting in the middle of the desert. i would imagine there's not much on-panel deletion to be had.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 12, 2016)

No _"it doesn't add up"_ is not an arbitrary assumption. You can tell it doesn't from the size of those craters left behind from their battle. Add them up alongside the initial two and they still don't even begin to approach a Jinton that was half the size of freaking final Susano'o. 

Tsunade is younger, a Senju/Uzumaki, and has a second Chakra stock. It took sustaining the grand majority of a village twice over to use up her Chakra, and we know she can pass it on to someone else.

So if old man Ohnoki pairs with her and suddenly whips out a Jinton far larger than all of the previous ones seen after shouting _"more, Princess"_, _it's most reasonably to be attributed to her supercharging it_.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 12, 2016)

[2]

 The Cube itself was roughly half the size of Madara's V4 Susano'o which was roughly the size of Full Kurama who is much larger than 50% Kurama or any other Bijuu in particular:

[2]

 You think Onoki with Stamina problems who's using one of the most advanced forms of a Kekkai Genkai in the manga is capable of using that jutsu to encompass something that's possibly larger than 50% Kurama on his own? The jutsu itself is very taxing as it requires an immense amount of chakra control.

 Sorry, but that doesn't seem logical to me. I have a hard time seeing Onoki being able to do that without Tsunade's Byakugou Chakra.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2016)

At their starting distance Mei jutsu execution speed and the speed of the jutsu is not so fast onoki can't Jinton it before it hits him 

Which instantly kills Mei whose LOS may be blocked by her water dragon


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## Bringer (Jan 12, 2016)

*@Icegaze*

The distance is 10 meters...

10 meters is 32 feet

The average adult walks nearly 4 feet per second, meaning that you could cross 32 feet by walking in 8 seconds. 

HELL Mei's water dragon is probably longer than 32 feet, and her water dragon takes seconds to activate.


----------



## Saru (Jan 12, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> No _"it doesn't add up"_ is not an arbitrary assumption. You can tell it doesn't from the size of those craters left behind from their battle. Add them up alongside the initial two and they still don't even begin to approach a Jinton that was half the size of freaking final Susano'o.
> 
> Tsunade is younger, a Senju/Uzumaki, and has a second Chakra stock. It took sustaining the grand majority of a village twice over to use up her Chakra, and we know she can pass it on to someone else.
> 
> So if old man Ohnoki pairs with her and suddenly whips out a Jinton far larger than all of the previous ones seen after shouting _"more, Princess"_, _it's most reasonably to be attributed to her supercharging it_.




i mean, i understand the basis for your reasoning, but it doesn't change the fact that their battle happened off panel. you're also assuming that the forces of Jinton don't cancel in some way when they clash, which is also possible. like i said, what he's shown before is not necessarily inconsistent with his showing against Madara because we literally don't know what happened off panel, but we can assume it involved Jinton. him shouting "more" is referring to chakra, yes, but it doesn't mean that the chakra she gave him exceeds his own limits in full health.



UchihaX28 said:


> [2]
> 
> The Cube itself was roughly half the size of Madara's V4 Susano'o which was roughly the size of Full Kurama who is much larger than 50% Kurama or any other Bijuu in particular:
> 
> ...




  Kakashi used Kamui to transport Gyuki after being recharged by Kurama. Akatsuchi thought that Onoki would blow up the entire Turtle Island if he used Jinton. i don't see it to be as much of 
 a stretch as you make it out to be


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2016)

So u are saying at 10m Mei jutsu could blitz onoki despite it never being hyped for its speed ? 

Lol A moves horribly faster than everything Mei can do or see 

Yet at 5m he couldn't outright blitz MS sasuke 

Mei stands no chance of blitzing onoki with water dragon


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 12, 2016)

> you're also assuming that the forces of Jinton don't cancel in some way when they clash, which is also possible.



No.  You just linked a page from when they clashed.  The explosion gets bigger than either beam.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 12, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So u are saying at 10m Mei jutsu could blitz onoki despite it never being hyped for its speed ?
> 
> Lol A moves horribly faster than everything Mei can do or see
> 
> ...



I'm saying Tsunade will close the distance with one body flicker, Onoki will fly upwards to avoid Tsunade, and then he will be blindsided by a water dragon.

Mei's jutsu execution is underestimated. Madara's fire ball was really close to Tsunade, and Mei and her jutsu was nowhere in sight, then suddenly in the next page she made a water wall, and seconds later she launched a water dragon from that water wall. 

She also made a lava pond on the ground before Madara could even hit the ground when Ei punched him from above. 

If Onoki gets hit by water dragon, Mei will push him towards Tsunade to punch him.


----------



## Saru (Jan 12, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> No.  You just linked a page from when they clashed.  The explosion gets bigger than either beam.





for that variant, yes. even if we do assume this is always the case for all types of Jinton, it in no way makes Onoki's feat impossible to do on his own at full strength.

Onoki is a casual island buster. that he is capable of massive amounts of destruction when he is resolved to do so (as he was against Deidara and Madara) should come as no surprise.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 12, 2016)

If you change the shape of a suiton it doesn't get less wet.  If you make jinton a cube or a cone it doesn't get less deleta.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 12, 2016)

> Onoki is a casual island buster



Please tell me this doesn't come from a calc and you just read the uncorrected scan that said, "You'll destroy turtle island!" instead of, "You'll kill the turtle!"


*Spoiler*: __ 



I'mma be understanding and sweet about one, and triggered like an anime studio by the other.


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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I'm saying Tsunade will close the distance with one body flicker, Onoki will fly upwards to avoid Tsunade, and then he will be blindsided by a water dragon.
> 
> Mei's jutsu execution is underestimated. Madara's fire ball was really close to Tsunade, and Mei and her jutsu was nowhere in sight, then suddenly in the next page she made a water wall, and seconds later she launched a water dragon from that water wall.
> 
> ...



So you are baselessly implying Tsunade is faster than onoki 

Despite onoki having better speed feats and the only one whose speed has been highlighted

I disagree


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## FlamingRain (Jan 12, 2016)

Tsunade caught up to Ohnoki and kicked ribcage Susano'o when Raikage hit it, because it hadn't flown off yet even though it was in mid-air when it was struck.

She's probably a bit faster than he is.


But BoC said Ohnoki would fly to avoid Tsunade.


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## Saru (Jan 12, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Please tell me this doesn't come from a calc and you just read the uncorrected scan that said, "You'll destroy turtle island!" instead of, "You'll kill the turtle!"




There's a translation error? Do you have any proof of this and/or the Viz translation? Because just a few moments later, he's about to use it again when he says "we're far away enough now," or something to that effect.



*Spoiler*: _Also, there's this_ 








This was when Onoki was not at 100%, mind you. An exhausted Onoki can destroy forests. I'm not sure where the notion that Tsunade was "super-charging" Onoki came from, but it wasn't from the manga. It seems to me that Tsunade was just replenishing his chakra levels (which is just as much a coordinated effort), not allowing Onoki to exceed his usual limits.


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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade caught up to Ohnoki and kicked ribcage Susano'o when Raikage hit it, because it hadn't flown off yet even though it was in mid-air when it was struck.
> 
> She's probably a bit faster than he is.
> 
> ...



onoki caught up to Muu after he was sent flying by KCM Naruto despite not being all that close to Muu before he was sent flying

tsunade is also certainly not faster in the air 

its very unlikely she could blitz him at all 

she has to jump to get to him. he simply need shift a little bit to avoid her completely 

then she is vulnerable in the air before she lands


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## FlamingRain (Jan 12, 2016)

Ohnoki didn't catch Mū when he was sent flying, he got to him after he crashed before he reentered the fight.

Nobody is arguing that Tsunade would blitz Ohnoki.


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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2016)

Ok 

Point is both loose . Can't see how Mei as a back up is worth much against Jinton


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 12, 2016)

Saru said:


> There's a translation error? Do you have any proof of this and/or the Viz translation? Because just a few moments later, he's about to use it again when he says "we're far away enough now," or something to that effect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







see chakra


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## Empathy (Jan 13, 2016)

Contextually, island-buster jinton doesn't make any sense even without the mistranslation. Onoki knew where he was and that island was being used to store the jinchuuriki, so why would he nuke it? He just didn't know it was alive, so putting holes in the island could kill it. His ultimate jinton cube that annihilated twenty-five _Susanoos_ when bolstered by Tsunade wasn't even close to island-size.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 13, 2016)

Well, SoW and Empathy just solo'd, so ... Nothing to discuss here.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 13, 2016)

Would you say we are the Mei and Tsunade to his Onoki?  
*Spoiler*: __ 



I wouldn't.


----------



## Saru (Jan 13, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> 1




Thanks for clearing that up. The fact remains that an exhausted Onoki destroyed a forest with Jinton.


*Spoiler*: _No way Tsunade and Mei are escaping this_ 





Also, just to get a sense of scale of that forest to Susano'o:



Also, props to Kishi for nailing the scale. Onoki when destroying the forest is pretty much the exact same size as Madara is in Susano'o.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 13, 2016)

That was a relatively normal sized Jinton beam that Ohnoki simply moved around, hence the direction of the lines and the whirling sfx.


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## Saru (Jan 13, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> That was a relatively normal sized Jinton beam that Ohnoki simply moved around, hence the direction of the lines and the whirling sfx.




How does that change anything, though? He still had to maintain the technique as he made the motions. If you want proof of destruction close to destroying 25 Susano'o, that's his second-best showing on panel. Onoki can presumably do something similar with a Jinton cube.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 13, 2016)

> How does that change anything, though?



It means there's more space to work with trying to avoid it.


----------



## Saru (Jan 13, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> It means there's more space to work with trying to avoid it.




Eh, I meant in respect to the amount of destruction can cause with Jinton (when at full strength and not tired like he was in the forest-destroying panel).


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 13, 2016)

Onoki is the worst possible match up against Tsunade.
Mei is too weak to effectively level Onoki's advantage.

Onoki wins with mid dif.


----------



## ThatGreekLady (Jan 13, 2016)

I'm a big fan of Tsunade and Mei but I think Onoki wins. He can fly so Tsunade doesn't even have a way to hurt him and I don't think Mei or Tsunade are fast enough to dodge his attacks.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 13, 2016)

In the same amount of time that Onoki flew about 5 meters forward, Tsunade jumped a hella bigger distance from the ground and appeared right beside him, throwing a super kick at Madara. She can certainly reach him, even if he is airborne, and she can attack him before he charges a jinton beam, which takes a second or two. Her super strength and chakra control means she can leap explosively off the ground, even if her regular movement speed is only just above average. That isn't to say she could blitz him, but neither jinton nor doton are good counters to close-ranged hulk punches.

As for Mei's Suiton, her casting speed, and then the speed of the suitons themselves are faster than anything Onoki has ever canonically reacted to. Waterspout crossed a massive distance and blocked a katon that was only a few meters away from hitting Tsunade. It couldn't even be seen in the panel where Madara used the katon, but in the next panel, about a second later, its already got in front of Tsunade. Onoki did manage to weigh down Madara's Susano'o clones, but it was off-panel, and he had a myriad of ways of touching them without having to be able to react to all of their attacks. Onoki's reactions and casting speed just aren't good enough to stop an attack that fast at 10 meters.

So, Mei blasts him with water before he has time to fly very far, pushing him upwards/backwards/wherever the fuck she wants, blinding him and rendering him a rag-doll, while Tsunade super-leaps into the air and axe-kicks him in the head.

If Onoki has time, which I don't think he will, he might switch out with a Doton Bunshin before he's killed, but even then, assuming he managed to get behind one of them and kill them with a jinton, the other quickly retaliates while he's still mid-beam and kills him.

The ladies win without much difficulty.​​


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 13, 2016)

Ohnoki has the type of flight that can let him move in 3d, though. He doesn't need to move further than Tsunade in order to dodge the attack, because she can only leap in one direction at a time and is human-sized.

Ohnoki could avoid Madara sprouting Mokuton at him and Raikage. Akatsuchi could also use a golem before Deidara's bomb detonated.

The Tsuchikage should be fine reacting to the Suiton.

Mei would need to try flipping it around his defense or something.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 13, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Ohnoki has the type of flight that can let him move in 3d, though. He doesn't need to move further than Tsunade in order to dodge the attack, because she can only leap in one direction at a time and is human-sized.



That is true, but even so, it's not like Tsunade hit an immobile target in mid-air. Mei's water dragon smashed into Susano'o with great velocity, blasting it backwards. Tsunade aimed at Susano'o while it was still moving, she just anticipated where it was going to go. Onoki is fast in mid-air but his movements aren't so erratic and unpredictable that she can't just anticipate where he's going to have moved by the time she reaches him. Tsunade is the specialist when it comes to close-combat, after all, and even in mid-air, it's still surely possible to anticipate movement by the way one moves their shoulders/arms.



> Ohnoki could avoid Madara sprouting Mokuton at him and Raikage. Akatsuchi could also use a golem before Deidara's bomb detonated.



In fairness, Mokuton movement speed is pretty inconsistent. At times, it gives Madara, Naruto and Gai a run for their money, but other times we have Onoki and Hiruzen reacting to it. Clearly the one Madara used wasn't so fast, and certainly, it didn't appear to be as fast Mei's Suiton. Akatsuchi is a Jounin, and a Kage bodyguard no less. He's also younger than Onoki. I'm not saying he's as impressive as a Kage-level, but just because he's relatively featless, that doesn't mean we should belittle the good feats he does have sheerly because his rank is lower than Onoki's. At any rate, blocking a smaller explosive is one thing, but blocking a larger, and perhaps even faster body of water is another. Onoki couldn't spit out a golem big enough and quickly enough to stop himself from being swamped. His ability to touch Susano'o is certainly a testament to the fact that he isn't slow, but then it was off-panel, so we don't know what the circumstances were.



> The Tsuchikage should be fine reacting to the Suiton.



It might not be a total blitz, but it will still be too late by the time he starts using his jutsu.​​


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## FlamingRain (Jan 13, 2016)

If Ohnoki changed directions, it would be because Tsunade is coming toward him. At that point, even if she could tell what kind of movements were used to go this way or that way, she wouldn't be changing directions herself because she'd be airborne.

Her jump wouldn't suddenly switch to the left or right because Ohnoki went there.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 13, 2016)

Onoki isn't getting lolblitzed.  He isn't winning either.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 14, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> If Ohnoki changed directions, it would be because Tsunade is coming toward him. At that point, even if she could tell what kind of movements were used to go this way or that way, she wouldn't be changing directions herself because she'd be airborne.
> 
> Her jump wouldn't suddenly switch to the left or right because Ohnoki went there.



But realistically, at 10 meters, he wouldn't have the time. If in the same space of time that he can cross about 5 meters, Tsunade is able to cross about 30-40 with a super leap, then what chance does he have of seeing her coming and changing his direction signicantly enough that he's out of her range? If the distance were greater I would agree, but at 10 meters, nah. He could spit out a Doton clone or a small golem in his place, but tshe might just smash through it and kick him anyway, or at least, he still has Mei to deal with too.​​


----------



## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

GT might have a point. Tsunade can use her body as a cannon ball. The cannon is her chakra enhanced strength being used through her feet. Ōnoki begins on the ground, so it isn't like he's got an advantage that most don't, because all that one would need to do to dodge Tsunade is to jump over her. If Tsunade can shoot herself at Ōnoki fast enough to where he can't get out of the way, she's going to break every bone in his body just by ramming into him. She'd smash right through any earth defense he could make too.

Ōnoki isn't without options, though. He could just do the same thing; chakra to the feet (CTF). It's a genin-level application of chakra control. Ōnoki & Mū have taken nature transformation to the highest possible point before you get to the god tiers with the truth-seeking balls, so they should be pretty skilled with the basics. He could gather to the feet & could explode backwards away from Tsunade when she explodes towards him...only he can continue to accelerate through his weightlessness while she's going to be slowing down. 

He'd probably be able to escape them both with this method because Mei has nothing to stop it. Though, I think it's worth noting that CTF jumps may still be related to speed. When Sasuke evaded v1 B, and RCM A intercepted KCM Naruto, speed-related comments followed. B said that Sasuke was the first to dodge him in that form since A, and Naruto was surprised that A could keep up with his speed. Therefore, the speed at which one jumps has to be related to one's combat speed. 

That said, there could be a difference. B seemed to redirect himself towards Taka, and A managed to stop himself in midair _right in front of Naruto_, so they must have kept a level of control. With CTF, maybe you'd just be going too fast to control yourself, which is why it isn't used very often. You'd regain control once you've decelerated enough to where you're not exceeding the speed at which you normally travel _without_ CTF. I think it makes sense. Tsunade could still use it on Ōnoki since she doesn't need to actually punch him (ie. control her movement) to win. The strength difference is so immense that just ramming into him ends it.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 14, 2016)

The problem is that for every one thing Onoki can react to there's another thing he can't, and if he does something about that, there's something else he's now in a bad position for.


----------



## Saru (Jan 14, 2016)

I still don't understand how Onoki gets cornered or disadvantaged when he can fly out of Tsunade's range and make this Onoki vs. Senju-energized Mei.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

It's out-of-character for him to fly out of the opponent's range. He'd probably opt to not to, and then what PoW said will play into the fight.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 15, 2016)

Rocky said:


> GT might have a point. Tsunade can use her body as a cannon ball. The cannon is her chakra enhanced strength being used through her feet. Ōnoki begins on the ground, so it isn't like he's got an advantage that most don't, because all that one would need to do to dodge Tsunade is to jump over her. If Tsunade can shoot herself at Ōnoki fast enough to where he can't get out of the way, she's going to break every bone in his body just by ramming into him. She'd smash right through any earth defense he could make too.
> 
> Ōnoki isn't without options, though. He could just do the same thing; chakra to the feet (CTF). It's a genin-level application of chakra control. Ōnoki & Mū have taken nature transformation to the highest possible point before you get to the god tiers with the truth-seeking balls, so they should be pretty skilled with the basics. He could gather to the feet & could explode backwards away from Tsunade when she explodes towards him...only he can continue to accelerate through his weightlessness while she's going to be slowing down.
> 
> ...



Well, when she did this against Madara, she super leaped and yet still managed to throw a kick in what seemed like one fluid motion. She may not even have to ram into him with a tackle, she may be able to throw an aimed attack. Perhaps you're right in asserting that you only regain control of your movements once you've decelerated enough, but even then, Tsunade's speed when she was decelerating must still have been very fast to cover that distance as quickly as she did. The same thing happened when Sakura did it against Ino - she blitzed with a punch as opposed to a tackle, despite moving much faster than usual. 

Also, the chakra to the feet method is OOC for Onoki, who relies on flight rather than his foot speed, so even if he could cannonball away from Tsunade, he won't.​​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2016)

Rocky said:


> It's out-of-character for him to fly out of the opponent's range.



Its more OOC for him to get killed willingly. Why would he stay within Tsunade's reach when he knows a flick of her finger is going to kill him ?

He has a massive advantage here, which is the capability of being able to fight while staying outside Tsunade's effective range. Not making use of it would be absolutely retarded.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 15, 2016)

INO WAS JOBBING


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 15, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> INO WAS JOBBING



She got REKT.​​


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its more OOC for him to get killed willingly. Why would he stay within Tsunade's reach when he knows a flick of her finger is going to kill him ?
> 
> He has a massive advantage here, which is the capability of being able to fight while staying outside Tsunade's effective range. Not making use of it would be absolutely retarded.



Normally it's really hard for someone to escape CQC once engaged in it, and it's really easy for them to get tied down in it.

It happens, when you escape CQC to be hit with long ranged ninjutsu, it gets really really really hard.  Imagine Deidara trying to take off with someone already in his face trying to engage him in taijutsu, and someone else as skilled as him trying to snipe him and take him down and keep him grounded.  He probably isn't getting off the ground most of the time, or getting away without taking injury, without a lot of luck and just the right circumstances.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 15, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> She got REKT.​​



YOU CAN JUSTIFY YOUR INDENTS, BUT YOU CAN NEVER JUSTIFY YOUR LIES GODAIME.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Normally it's really hard for someone to escape CQC once engaged in it, and it's really easy for them to get tied down in it.
> 
> It happens, when you escape CQC to be hit with long ranged ninjutsu, it gets really really really hard.  Imagine Deidara trying to take off with someone already in his face trying to engage him in taijutsu, and someone else as skilled as him trying to snipe him and take him down and keep him grounded.  He probably isn't getting off the ground most of the time, or getting away without taking injury, without a lot of luck and just the right circumstances.



I disagree.

level
level
level

Onoki is not a physical fighter. Starting on the ground doesn't mean he is going to stay there, because thats not how he fights.

Tsunade isn't fast enough to pressure him either. 

It is near impossible for Tsunade to tag him because unlike other grounded fighters Onoki doesn't have to dodge her only in X axis. He can move in every direction without putting himself in an unfavorable spot, so once he moves out of the way, he can easily get completely out of her range before she can course correct and come at him again.

Onoki is a fragile old man, and going by his flashbacks he was always a small dude with no physical engagement capability. I am pretty sure he didn't survive this long through sheer luck.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 15, 2016)

In your first example, Deidara was in pure escape mode and had those ninjas on his tail for a long time, until he was cornered.  

In your third example, Deidara explains that he was lucky.  He happened to be working with C1 chakra when he was attacked, and it barely worked out for him.  Sooooooooo....



> a lot of luck and just the right circumstances



In both of those examples, Deidara wasn't _also_ being attacked by a long ranged specialized opponent of equal standing of him.  Imagine if he escaped from Sasuke with the bomb, and then he immediately got bombarded with jinton beams.  Now he's hopping around avoiding those, and then Sasuke catches up and starts trying to cut him again.  Do you picture him getting on his clay dragon and flying off to bombard them?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> In your first example, Deidara was in pure escape mode and had those ninjas on his tail for a long time, until he was cornered.


Deidara was stationary when he was approached from behind.
So both parties started stationary and from a close distance and Deidara was able to disengage.
Let me remind you that Deidara didn't have his arms, and he can't fly away like Onoki without creating a bird first.



> In your third example, Deidara explains that he was lucky.  He happened to be working with C1 chakra when he was attacked, and it barely worked out for him.  Sooooooooo....


And Tsunde isn't as fast as Sasuke, not even remotely comparable.
But we know that Onoki's speed is comparable to Deidara.



> In both of those examples, Deidara wasn't _also_ being attacked by a long ranged specialized opponent of equal standing of him.  Imagine if he escaped from Sasuke with the bomb, and then he immediately got bombarded with jinton beams.  Now he's hopping around avoiding those, and then Sasuke catches up and starts trying to cut him again.  Do you picture him getting on his clay dragon and flying off to bombard them?



Yes but he was being attacked by people alot faster than Tsunade. And Mei's suitons aren't as fast as Jinton beams. 
Onoki has Doton, an element superior to Suiton. If he flies away and gets targeted by a suiton he can just create a golem in mid air or someshit. 
Or he can raise a doton platform in between him and the kunoichi as a means to start to fight.

But how I see is that Onoki will take off  as the first thing, and there is nothing they can do to catch him.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 15, 2016)

> It's out-of-character for him to fly out of the opponent's range. He'd probably opt to not to, and then what PoW said will play into the fight.


Are you implying he hangs around on the ground with a one shot KO specialist and someone who can boil the surrounding air?

Onoki's stubborn, but he's no Forest Gump. 

He takes to the skies immediately.


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## Saru (Jan 15, 2016)

I agree that "flying out of range immediately is OOC"  is an indefensible argument. It's like when people say "Kakashi won't use Kamui right away," so he loses, or "Itachi won't use the Mangekyou right away," so he loses. The only time I buy that argument is when the character who is hesitant to use the best possible strategy is facing a character with a technique that is fast or highly destructive (e.g. Amaterasu, Kamui, Hiraishin, Bijuudama, Chibaku Tensei, etc.).

Neither Tsunade nor Mei have techniques that are fast or destructive enough to one-shot Onoki from the jump. Now, Onoki on the other hand...


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## FlamingRain (Jan 15, 2016)

It's not really any less defensible than Gaara's IC approach.

Gaara said he could always use his sand to fly, and yet did not against Lee, Sasuke, Naruto, Kimimaro (for most of the fight anyway), Rasa, or Gengetsu (again, for most of the fight anyway).

He flew sky-high when chasing after someone else who could.

Ohnoki, similarly, will not be flying _that_ far away from the ground when IC (at least for the most part) because he has explicitly voiced how he disliked that.



Saru said:


> Neither Tsunade nor Mei have techniques that are fast enough to one-shot Onoki from the jump.



True.



> or destructive enough to one-shot Enoki.







> Now, Onoki on the other hand...



Ohnoki's Jutsu aren't absolutely unavoidable either.


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## Dr. White (Jan 15, 2016)

Saru said:


> I agree that "flying out of range immediately is OOC"  is an indefensible argument. It's like when people say "Kakashi won't use Kamui right away," so he loses, or "Itachi won't use the Mangekyou right away," so he loses.


Not really, it's totally defensible. Being IC is something that happens in their reality. We get to see them living under the scope, and their personality, intelligence, knowledge, etc are all factors of the character.

Gai could have killed Kisame and conceivably Itachi by opening 7 gates and bltizing in with backup from Kakashi, Kurenai, and Asuma. Gai fought Kisame in base despite his students being drowned, it was only when he was sent underwater that he responded, because he was in a rut. Similarly Kakashi could have ended Kakuzu multiple times with a kamui but wasn't going to pull it out until he was hogtied by Kakuzu and unable to respond to a KFC, or when on the brink of death vs Pein.

fights tend to happen progressively and unfold. Unless you have a situation like full knowledge and reason to believe character A sees character B as a huge threat, thus warranting the right ASAP Beast Mode-ing.


> Neither Tsunade nor Mei have techniques that are fast or destructive enough to one-shot Onoki from the jump. Now, Onoki on the other hand...


From 10 M he gets slammed with hundreds of tons of moving Water and Tsunade follows up with an axe kick that doesn't even have to hit him to damage him. Seems pretty cut and dry.

Increase the distance and he wins.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2016)

Flying isn't Onoki's trump card though.

It is an essential part of his fighting style and his main means of mobility. 

When you consider that Onoki doesn't have any proper means of fighting and sustaining a grounded battle, him not taking it to the skies would be OOC. Not the other way around.


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## Saru (Jan 15, 2016)

*@Dr. White*: In Gai's case of fighting Itachi and Kisame with _Kyomon_ or _Keimon_, that would be unprecedented. You don't just charge in full throttle if you have no knowledge of the opponent's abilities. That shit is reckless. Gai knew his pupils were okay, because Neji could've broken out at any time with Hyuuga clan ninjutsu (which he did when the time was ripe). Kakashi only uses Kamui when he feels there is a huge threat, or that he will lose. He could've defeated Kakuzu with Kamui, but he didn't have to go that far. He was fighting Pain to gain info on his abilities to pass on to his allies and _then_ thought about using Kamui. What do all of these situations have in common? They're last resorts. Flying is not a last resort for Onoki, so he will use it to his advantage.



FlamingRain said:


> It's not really any less defensible than Gaara's IC approach.
> 
> Gaara said he could always use his sand to fly, and yet did not against Lee, Sasuke, Naruto, Kimimaro (for most of the fight anyway), Rasa, or Gengetsu (again, for most of the fight anyway).
> 
> ...





Onoki's jutsu are more destructive than Mei's jutsu or Tsunade's chakra-enhanced strength though, and on a much wider scale. That said, I don't think that he can get off Jinton easy with Mei's Suiton providing pressure, but he has an elemental advantage. It seems very logical to me for a seasoned Kage to use Elemental Nature advantage to his... Advantage.

And you also have to consider that Onoki mentions _sneaking away_ and attacking from a distance (which would be in line with Deidara's past as a bomber). I don't think Onoki's going to be playing it sneaky here.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 15, 2016)

Ohnoki made the comment as a result of Deidara trying to fly off when right in front of him, hardly any differently than the other battles he's been in on-panel. He was talking about trying to maintain a great distance, again hardly any differently than the other battles he's been in on-panel.

We've repeatedly seen Ohnoki fly _closer to_ targets before using Jinton.


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## Saru (Jan 15, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Ohnoki made the comment as a result of Deidara trying to fly off when right in front of him, hardly any differently than the other battles he's been in on-panel. He was talking about trying to maintain a great distance, again hardly any differently than the other battles he's been in on-panel.
> 
> We've repeatedly seen Ohnoki fly _closer to_ targets before using Jinton.




Actually, Onoki was looking at and aiming at Kabuto with Jinton. Deidara sees this and tries to sneak away. Thus Onoki gives chase and he makes the comment.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 15, 2016)

I'm pretty sure he could see them both from where he was.

But Deidara threw a bomb at Ohnoki, then talked about Akatsuchi sticking to Ohnoki like glue. Deidara flew off after _that_, _then_ Ohnoki made the comment while _chasing_ Deidara.


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## Saru (Jan 15, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> I'm pretty sure he could see them both from where he was.
> 
> But Deidara threw a bomb at Ohnoki, then talked about Akatsuchi sticking to Ohnoki like glue. Deidara flew off after _that_, _then_ Ohnoki made the comment while _chasing_ Deidara.




Both Onoki and Akatsuchi were vulnerable and surprised by the attack. It was a literal sneak attack. Deidara took advantage of small window of opportunity (Deidara: "they're open") to surprise Onoki. Hence the comment.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 15, 2016)

They were surprised because the bomb got there in the middle of their conversation.

Ohnoki's comment was directed at Deidara's _subsequent_ attempt to run off, because it's Ohnoki's reply to Deidara saying that he'd gottsn even faster than he was in his prime.


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## Saru (Jan 15, 2016)

Deidara didn't say that to Onoki; he was thinking it to himself. And Onoki and Akatsuchi were surprised by Deidara's attack because Deidara had snuck away and gotten some distance, and Onoki and Akatsuchi were focused on Kabuto/each other, thus creating an opening for Deidara (hence Onoki saying he always disliked Deidara's sneaky antics when he's flying alongside him later). You acknowledge that Onoki and Akatsuchi were surprised by Deidara's attack. That's why Onoki was lecturing Deidara: because he had tried to attack them while they were off-guard and vulnerable from a distance.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 15, 2016)

_Look at the panel_- it was out loud.


I don't think the rest of your post actually addresses the point in my previous post.


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## Saru (Jan 16, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> _Look at the panel_- it was out loud.





FlamingRain said:


> because* it's Ohnoki's reply to Deidara saying that he'd gottsn even faster than he was in his prime.*




Deidara said that after the panel you just linked, and it was in Deidara's head. It was a thought to himself. The panel you just linked is just Onoki and Akatsuchi acknowledging Deidara's attack. Onoki was lecturing Deidara for sneaking away on his bird and striking them from a distance while they were distracted.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 16, 2016)

Saru said:


> ​
> 
> Deidara said that after the panel you just linked, and it was in Deidara's head. It was a thought to himself. The panel you just linked is just Onoki and Akatsuchi acknowledging Deidara's attack. Onoki was lecturing Deidara for sneaking away on his bird and striking them from a distance while they were distracted.




Oh. Alright then.

Regardless, I don't agree with the idea that Ohnoki was talking specifically about being sneaky because _this_ sure seems like he's paying attention to Deidara while he was actually moving. And even if Deidara made that comment about Ohnoki becoming faster mentally it still seems more like he was simply trying to widen the distance as opposed to being sneaky at that point, and that being the point at which Ohnoki voiced his dislike of the tactic suggests that's what he was referring to.

As does his tendency to zoom in before blasting at people, which is the opposite of how Deidara fights.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

So the excuse now is he won't use Jinton off the bat ?


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## Saru (Jan 16, 2016)

^No, that flying out of Tsunade's range is completely OOC. :/




FlamingRain said:


> Oh. Alright then.
> 
> Regardless, I don't agree with the idea that Ohnoki was talking specifically about being sneaky because _this_ sure seems like he's paying attention to Deidara while he was actually moving. And even if Deidara made that comment about Ohnoki becoming faster mentally it still seems more like he was simply trying to widen the distance as opposed to being sneaky at that point, and that being the point at which Ohnoki voiced his dislike of the tactic suggests that's what he was referring to.
> 
> As does his tendency to zoom in before blasting at people, which is the opposite of how Deidara fights.




Except that doesn't explain the sneak bit of Onoki's comment. I mean, you can't just ignore that part. It makes more sense in the context of Deidara's sneak attack.

Onoki was paying attention at first, but his main target was Kabuto, so he shifted his attention mid-Jinton there (because Onoki's eyes can't split in two different directions).


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## FlamingRain (Jan 16, 2016)

I didn't ignore it, but when I read it I interpreted "sneak away" them same way I'd interpret "slip off".

I'm pretty sure Ohnoki was flying high enough that he'd have still seen them both when Deidara started moving.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 17, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> YOU CAN JUSTIFY YOUR INDENTS, BUT YOU CAN NEVER JUSTIFY YOUR LIES GODAIME.



LOL

I'm insecure about my justified indents. Not cool.​​


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