# Freiza(DBZ) takes on numerous verses



## Alita (Apr 16, 2010)

Freiza(Dragon ball z) vs HST, Fairy Tail universe, Claymore universe, Devil May Cry universe, Hellsing universe, S Cry Ed universe, Battle Angel Alita universe, Avatar the last airbender universe, Elfen lied Universe, Inuyasha Universe, and Full Metal Alchemist Universe. 

Freiza cannot use any attack which is island busting or beyond that. Avatar universe can use bloodbending and it's a full moon. Freiza is in character while evryone from all the other universes are bloodlust. No restrictions for all the other universes. 

Scenario 1-Speed is equalized
Scenario 2-Speed is not equalized
Scenario 3-Same as scenario 1 but the universes get 1 week of prep time.
Scenario 4-Same as scenario 2 but the universes get 1 week of prep time.

Who wins each scenario?


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## Shagari (Apr 16, 2010)

Frieza island busts them to obvilion. I can see them beating him in scenario 1 and 3 only. Maybe 3, but no way are they beating him in scenario 2. Hellsing would be the biggest problem imo.  Everyone else would just get incinerated by island/city busting attacks.


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## Hellspawn28 (Apr 16, 2010)

S Cry Ed universe could beat him, everyone else is screw.


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## Kurou (Apr 16, 2010)

lol kazuma shoves a shell bullet up his ass. then again does frieza have planet+ durability?


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## Archreaper93 (Apr 16, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> then again does frieza have planet+ durability?



Indeed, good sir.


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## Shagari (Apr 16, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> lol kazuma shoves a shell bullet up his ass. then again does frieza have planet+ durability?


Frieza>>>>Bullets (unless it was shot by Trunks though)


Hellspawn28 said:


> S Cry Ed universe could beat him, everyone else is screw.


What about Alucard from Hellsing?


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## Kurou (Apr 16, 2010)

jedijohn said:


> Indeed, good sir.


 ah i see then . this ends in a stalemate since frieza can't kill kazuma or ryuuhou



Shagari said:


> Frieza>>>>Bullets (unless it was shot by Trunks though)




 do you know anything about S-Cry-Ed?


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## Raigen (Apr 17, 2010)

Try 3min in. Freeza's island-nuking blast can still have effects spreading far beyond its range.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY_1snOaBNo[/YOUTUBE]


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## Alita (Apr 17, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Try 3min in. Freeza's island-nuking blast can still have effects spreading far beyond its range.
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY_1snOaBNo[/YOUTUBE]


So I'm guessing pein's soul stealing technique and madara's dimmension warping and galetea's ability to slightly deflect the attacks of her opponent and dante's jackpot ability woulden't help the universes in scenario's 1 and 3? And could edward elric possibly transmute freiza into something in those scenarios?


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## keikokusama (Apr 17, 2010)

Without Restrictions Freeza Kills All  Verses on the lists, but with those Restrictions on the Title, It's hard for him but i don't see him loses though....


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## Raigen (Apr 17, 2010)

Ed would need to know what composes Freeza's body, since he's obviously not human and his entire physiology is completely different. Besides Freeza was lobbing nukes around in his base form when Vegeta stole the Dragonballs. Frankly if Freeza is limited to a certain level of destruction and speed, then he has no need to transform and can just do everything he needs to in his base form. It's not like they could actually hurt him anyway. He could just finger-beam them or, hell, *breathe* and take out all the fodder like he did to those Namekians outside Guru's place.


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## Alita (Apr 17, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Ed would need to know what composes Freeza's body, since he's obviously not human and his entire physiology is completely different. Besides Freeza was lobbing nukes around in his base form when Vegeta stole the Dragonballs. Frankly if Freeza is limited to a certain level of destruction and speed, then he has no need to transform and can just do everything he needs to in his base form. It's not like they could actually hurt him anyway. He could just finger-beam them or, hell, *breathe* and take out all the fodder like he did to those Namekians outside Guru's place.


Gejutsu is a no go either? Coulden't crocodile from one piece possibly drain freiza in the first and third scenario's?


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## HeOf7 (Apr 17, 2010)

Freiza can blast hole to the center of a planet witch in the dbz universe apparently cause it to explode; he can’t just blow up a planet. and planet Namik or however its spelled was smaller than earth. The living planet Mercurius in BAA beats freiza.


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## Hellspawn28 (Apr 17, 2010)

Shagari said:


> What about Alucard from Hellsing?



Doubt it, even end of series Alucard is no match for a Planet buster. Even if the Death Ball in combat can destroy a Planet with a cain rection, it's still very powerful never less. And that Freeza would fire a moon buster attack at him. 

I remember the people at end of S Cry Ed can destroy Dimensions or something like that? I'm not sure if they can beat them or not?


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## Alita (Apr 17, 2010)

HeOf7 said:


> Freiza can blast hole to the center of a planet witch in the dbz universe apparently cause it to explode; he can’t just blow up a planet. and planet Namik or however its spelled was smaller than earth. The living planet Mercurius in BAA beats freiza.


I haven't gotten that far yet in BAA. What can Mercurius do?


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## HeOf7 (Apr 17, 2010)

Has Freiza shown any resistant’s to mind fucking.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 17, 2010)

Alita54 said:


> I haven't gotten that far yet in BAA. What can Mercurius do?




It?s a giant mass of nanomachines. And a creature made of said nanomachines can tank nukes without any real damage.


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## Snuzzy (Apr 17, 2010)

Couldnt Gin one shot him with a Mach 500 bankai through the head? I dont recall Freeza having any calcs that can back him up reacting to that.


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## OutlawJohn (Apr 17, 2010)

Snuzzy said:


> Couldnt Gin one shot him with a Mach 500 bankai through the head? I dont recall Freeza having any calcs that can back him up reacting to that.



Lol at Bleach charecter beating Frieza.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 17, 2010)

1.	Freiza “is not” indestructible.
2.	Freiza “is” pretty  stupid.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 17, 2010)

Nihilus Unmasked!


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## Koroshi (Apr 17, 2010)

Freeza can't kill Schrodinger Alucard.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 17, 2010)

LOL@ posting anime clips as if they were canon


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## Shagari (Apr 17, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> LOL@ posting anime clips as if they were canon


There is nothing wrong with anime clips as evidence as long as the feats in the clips don't exceed that of the manga (i.e. if a planet buster kills a bunch of people with his breath, it is still valid even though he never did it in the manga).  


Raigen said:


> Ed would need to know what composes Freeza's body, since he's obviously not human and his entire physiology is completely different. Besides Freeza was lobbing nukes around in his base form when Vegeta stole the Dragonballs. Frankly if Freeza is limited to a certain level of destruction and speed, then he has no need to transform and can just do everything he needs to in his base form. It's not like they could actually hurt him anyway.* He could just finger-beam them or, hell, breathe and take out all the fodder like he did to those Namekians outside Guru's place.*


Or he could fly out of their range and spam island busters at them. I am guessing an island buster is 10 km of AoE vaporized? That sounds reasonable. 



Alita54 said:


> Gejutsu is a no go either? Coulden't crocodile from one piece possibly drain freiza in the first and third scenario's?





HeOf7 said:


> 1.	Freiza ?is not? indestructible.
> 2.	Freiza ?is? pretty  stupid.


Wouldn't matter if his opponents are bugs compared to him. If they have hax to use on him, then him being in character would help.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Apr 17, 2010)

Snuzzy said:


> Couldnt Gin one shot him with a Mach 500 bankai through the head? I dont recall Freeza having any calcs that can back him up reacting to that.


He might be able to react to that. Even if he can't, it wouldn't hurt him...


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## Archreaper93 (Apr 17, 2010)

Snuzzy said:


> Couldnt Gin one shot him with a Mach 500 bankai through the head? I dont recall Freeza having any calcs that can back him up reacting to that.



You're right about the fact that he might not be able to react and dodge, but you're also assuming that Gin's sword will be able to hurt him.  Which it won't.


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 17, 2010)

Snuzzy said:


> Couldnt Gin one shot him with a Mach 500 bankai through the head? I dont recall Freeza having any calcs that can back him up reacting to that.



Even if he couldn't dodge it, it's going to do what to him exactly, considering Freiza has durability feats better than what Gin's Bankai power output is.


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## Fang (Apr 17, 2010)

Gin isn't Mach 500.
Gin's Bankai isn't 500 times the speed of sound.

Freeza made a completely 20x amped Kaioken Goku look fucking slow at 50% full power. 

And the same base Goku casually outpaced a multi-kilometer diameter blast...over like more than half a dozen kilometer distances.

So no.


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## Shagari (Apr 17, 2010)

hadomaru said:


> He might be able to react to that. Even if he can't, it wouldn't hurt him...


How much busting potential does it have (just out of curiousity)? Anyways, it probably wouldn't matter since Bleach is city busting at max so far, and that is nowhere near enough to hurt Frieza raw power-wise.


TWF said:


> Gin isn't Mach 500.
> Gin's Bankai isn't 500 times the speed of sound.
> 
> Freeza made a completely 20x amped Kaioken Goku look fucking slow at 50% full power.
> ...


That beats the speed feats of pretty much anyone else on the opposing side unless somebody arguing for the opposing side can post scans of more impressive speed feats.


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## Archreaper93 (Apr 17, 2010)

Shagari said:


> That beats the speed feats of pretty much anyone else on the opposing side unless somebody arguing for the opposing side can post scans of more impressive speed feats.



Which is why the only scenarios Freeza might lose are the ones where speed is equalized.


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## Narcissus (Apr 17, 2010)

HeOf7 said:


> Has Freiza shown any resistant?s to mind fucking.



No, he hasn't.



Snuzzy said:


> Couldnt Gin one shot him with a Mach 500 bankai through the head? I dont recall Freeza having any calcs that can back him up reacting to that.



Gin's bankai would break on Frieza's body. And without restrictions, Frieza would kill Gin before he ever removes his sword anyway.



Shagari said:


> There is nothing wrong with anime clips as evidence as long as the feats in the clips don't exceed that of the manga (i.e. if a planet buster kills a bunch of people with his breath, it is still valid even though he never did it in the manga).



Wrong. The canon source always used unless stated otherwise. In your example you would be trying to give said character a feat that was not in canon.


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## Fang (Apr 17, 2010)

Freeza has psychic powers, specifically telekinesis but I doubt that does anything for telepathic resistance.


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## Level7N00b (Apr 17, 2010)

This was probably filler, but didn't Frieza destroy a mountain by looking at it in his first form?


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## Fang (Apr 17, 2010)

Freeza's telekinesis is not filler, but the whole TKing an entire island was.


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## God (Apr 17, 2010)

This is gay as hell.


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## Fang (Apr 17, 2010)

This thread got Cubey'd


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## Narcissus (Apr 17, 2010)

TWF said:


> Freeza has psychic powers, specifically telekinesis but I doubt that does anything for telepathic resistance.



It doesn't. The only argument one could make is who's psychic powers work faster between the telekinetic and the telepath, but telekinesis doesn't grant immunity or resistance from mental assault.


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## Shagari (Apr 17, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> Wrong. The canon source always used unless stated otherwise. In your example you would be trying to give said character a feat that was not in canon.


No, I was saying all cannon feats are allowed, but non-cannon is allowed as long as it doesn't exceed the strongest cannon feats (i.e. Frieza can't ever be given more than planet busting ability). Breathing several people to death, for example,  is obviously allowed since it doesn't exceed Frieza's max capacity in the manga. 





Level7N00b said:


> This was probably filler, but didn't Frieza destroy a mountain by looking at it in his first form?


Out of all fairness, I am not sure if that's allowed. 


TWF said:


> Freeza's telekinesis is not filler, but the whole TKing an entire island was.


What TKing an island? I don't recall anything like that in the manga or the anime.


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## Raigen (Apr 17, 2010)

Freeza didn't TK blast an island. It was an invisible energy wave that created an explosion. You saw how his eyes flashed, right? That was it right there. It was Kiai (or Kiaiho). It's not beyond his ability to do that either, given what he's already shown himself capable of doing. But like I said, he could just eye-beam or finger beam everyone and he can spam these attacks. Genjutsu takes some prep and it's unclear if it'd work on someone whose power is literally thousands of times greater than the person seeking to affect Freeza's. And nothing about it stops Freeza from just AoE'ing everything. That kinda takes several of these groups out all at once.


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## Narcissus (Apr 17, 2010)

Shagari said:


> No, I was saying all cannon feats are allowed, but non-cannon is allowed as long as it doesn't exceed the strongest cannon feats (i.e. Frieza can't ever be given more than planet busting ability). Breathing several people to death, for example,  is obviously allowed since it doesn't exceed Frieza's max capacity in the manga.



And you would still be wrong to try and use such a feat because it is not canon. It isn't hard to understand.

As for Frieza "TKing an island" I do remember that quite clearly in the anime during his fight with Goku, but I'm sure it was filler.


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## Raigen (Apr 17, 2010)

Gaze-explodes a hillside -> Hyper Kabuto


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## Narcissus (Apr 17, 2010)

What part of "in the anime" and "filler" did you fail to understand?


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## Raigen (Apr 17, 2010)

That's not anime nor filler. That's the Manga right here. Did you not look?


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## Azrael Finalstar (Apr 17, 2010)

Raigen said:


> That's not anime nor filler. That's the Manga right here. Did you not look?


 that comment was at shagari, i think.


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## Narcissus (Apr 17, 2010)

Raigen said:


> That's not anime nor filler. That's the Manga right here. Did you not look?





I said there was a filler scene in the anime where Frieza uses TK on an island.

1:15
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qlHR6Dc1uA&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## Raigen (Apr 17, 2010)

Actually, the part where Freeza TK's rocks at Goku isn't filler. He does that in the manga as well. I believe you mean the one where he TK's a giant chunk of land at Goku. That one never happened. But TK'ing rocks? Easy stuff.

Hyper Kabuto
Hyper Kabuto
Hyper Kabuto


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## Fang (Apr 17, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> It doesn't. The only argument one could make is who's psychic powers work faster between the telekinetic and the telepath, but telekinesis doesn't grant immunity or resistance from mental assault.



I know.



Shagari said:


> What TKing an island? I don't recall anything like that in the manga or the anime.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFcF9nNYbU4[/YOUTUBE]

8:53

He can also apparently throw/TK it at exceptionally fast velocities. 



Raigen said:


> Freeza didn't TK blast an island. It was an invisible energy wave that created an explosion. You saw how his eyes flashed, right? That was it right there. It was Kiai (or Kiaiho). It's not beyond his ability to do that either, given what he's already shown himself capable of doing.



Kiai has nothing to do with telekinesis. It's an invisible attack of using your aura to shield or blast things. And Kiaho is just a variation of it using your voice, as Tenshinhan showed during his fight with Roshi back at the 22nd Budokai.

You are lying. He did use his Kiai to blow away a couple hundreds of tons easily but still completely different situation.



Raigen said:


> That's not anime nor filler. That's the Manga right here. Did you not look?



Which is still a huge difference from TKing a land mass casually equivalent to a multi-kilometer spanning island and its entire bedrock.


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## Raigen (Apr 17, 2010)

I covered all that already dude. You should keep up to date with this. As for the land-chunk in that clip, the "it's as big as an island!" is hyperbole. That ain't nearly the size of an island. And it was kind of a PIS moment. I mean, Piccolo for one should not at all be surprised, given he TK'd a Pyramid above cloud cover Pre-Saiyan Arrival and TK created a typhoon as well as lifting a section of an area and doing a 1080 with it before setting it back in place.


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## Fang (Apr 17, 2010)

Piccolo didn't do anything like that except the TKing a pyramid in filler. And that was the size of an island, a small one, but still big enough.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 17, 2010)

Shagari said:


> *Wouldn't matter if his opponents are bugs compared to him*. If they have hax to use on him, then him being in character would help.


try roling arund on Top of Fire-ant hill


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## Narcissus (Apr 17, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Actually, the part where Freeza TK's rocks at Goku isn't filler. He does that in the manga as well. I believe you mean the one where he TK's a giant chunk of land at Goku. That one never happened. But TK'ing rocks? Easy stuff.
> 
> Orochimaru
> Orochimaru
> Orochimaru



Yes, that was the scene I was looking for, but I couldn't find it so I went with what I could. Anyway, it's posted now, and it does show that Frieza has TK, even if it's not particularly potent.


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## Fang (Apr 17, 2010)

Actually it was TK that Freeza used to blow up Krillen.


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## Narcissus (Apr 17, 2010)

TWF said:


> Actually it was TK that Freeza used to blow up Krillen.



I am aware of that. Even so, Frieza's TK is still underwhelming, within his own universe, and even in comparison to his own abilities. He could still cause much more damage with his ki attacks.


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## Shagari (Apr 17, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Actually, the part where Freeza TK's rocks at Goku isn't filler. He does that in the manga as well. I believe you mean the one where he TK's a giant chunk of land at Goku. That one never happened. But TK'ing rocks? Easy stuff.
> 
> Orochimaru
> Orochimaru
> Orochimaru



That happened in both the manga and anime. Actually pretty much everything that happened in the manga happened in the anime as well. The anime needs as much material as possible, so there is no point in omitting parts of the manga.


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## Stermor (Apr 18, 2010)

look the only attacks that might work on frieza are those that can cover more then an island instantly and have above planet busting power. i can't think of any???


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## Endless Mike (Apr 18, 2010)

No proof Frieza can take a planet buster head on, surviving on the surface of an exploding planet is a lot less impressive than being in the core or taking it all directly.


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## Soledad Eterna (Apr 18, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> No proof Frieza can take a planet buster head on, surviving on the surface of an exploding planet is a lot less impressive than being in the core or taking it all directly.



However, he did it when he was chopped in half and almost dying, which is very impressive.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 18, 2010)

veget0010 said:


> However, he did it when he was chopped in half and almost dying, which is very impressive.



Not as much as you would think, since his race apparently can survive that normally. Also he would have died if King Cold hadn't found him.


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## Fang (Apr 18, 2010)

What do you mean "survive that normally" exactly?


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## Endless Mike (Apr 18, 2010)

I mean when he was cut in half his guts didn't go dropping all over the ground and his blood didn't go gushing out, in fact there was hardly any blood at all and he was more pissed off than anything. His physiology is obviously much different from a human or Saiyajin.


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## Fang (Apr 18, 2010)

Yeah but you have Nappa casually punching off half of Tenshinhan's arm and its the same deal in the manga as when Freeza was cut by his own Kenizan.


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## God Movement (Apr 18, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> I mean when he was cut in half his guts didn't go dropping all over the ground and his blood didn't go gushing out, in fact there was hardly any blood at all and he was more pissed off than anything. His physiology is obviously much different from a human or Saiyajin.



Isn't that just authors preference though? Should that really take anything away from him as someone with legitimate planet level durability?


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## Endless Mike (Apr 18, 2010)

Losing an arm is hardly comparable to losing half of your entire body. Anyway my point is that it's really nowhere near taking a full planet buster.


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## Fang (Apr 18, 2010)

I'm meant that there was no bone or muscle or gore showing. It really is author's preference in that department.


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## Narcissus (Apr 18, 2010)

Does anyone consider the attacks Trunks used to kill Frieza and his father to have planet busting force?


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## Fang (Apr 18, 2010)

No, but Trunks was at full power and he sliced up Freeza, who easily shrugs off multi-island busters.

So its still a ridiculous feat all things considered.


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## Narcissus (Apr 18, 2010)

TWF said:


> No, but Trunks was at full power and he sliced up Freeza, who easily shrugs off multi-island busters.
> 
> So its still a ridiculous feat all things considered.



Never said it wasn't.



God Movement said:


> Right. Let's see here, Trunks slices Freeza into one million pieces and then blows him up. Evidently nowhere near a planet buster is even required to blow up a target dissected into that many pieces, the defenses of characters in Dragon Ball are obviously amped up by ki along with the rest of their physical stats whilst they are alive, killing a character then blowing him/her up afterwards completely ignores that element. So in a few words: Trunks didn't need a planet buster to kill him at that stage.
> 
> Same goes for King Cold... nothing here really takes anything away from them.



So you're saying they could tank planet buster? Just to be clear.


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## God Movement (Apr 18, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> So you're saying they could tank planet buster? Just to be clear.



Not in the sense you are probably thinking of. I'm saying they could tank a planetary+ explosion similar to what Freeza endured on Namek (who's to say in reality he isn't slightly superior to this though? It's not like he survived the explosion when he was half dead or anything, granted King Cold saved him but his body was still more or less in tact). In relation to what you were saying though, Trunks' attack clearly wasn't a planet buster and I was stressing that it in no way had to be and it in no way affected what Freeza is capable of durability wise.


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## Final Giku Tenshou (Apr 18, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> So you're saying they could tank planet buster? Just to be clear.



Actually, it was theorized by Freeza that both he and Goku would be able to survive the planetary explosion, however Goku would die due to lack of oxygen. Goku later tells Freeza to get out of his sight, and do whatever he wishes with the power he gave him. Freeza of course, blows up in a fit of rage, and launches a final attack at Goku like an idiot. Goku easily diverts the attack, as well as his own, back at Freeza.

So Freeza survived... getting cut in half by his own disc attack, getting hit by his own attack + Super Saiyan Goku's attack, and then getting hit by the explosion of the planet to top it all off, all while severely weakened and below half of his power. That's quite impressive in the Dragonball universe if you ask me, especially considering that the Super Saiyan was the most powerful warrior in the universe at the time.


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## Narcissus (Apr 18, 2010)

God Movement said:


> Not in the sense you are probably thinking of. I'm saying they could tank a planetary+ explosion similar to what Freeza endured on Namek (who's to say in reality he isn't slightly superior to this though? It's not like he survived the explosion when he was half dead or anything, granted King Cold saved him but his body was still more or less in tact). In relation to what you were saying though, Trunks' attack clearly wasn't a planet buster and I was stressing that it in no way had to be and it in no way affected what Freeza is capable of durability wise.



Except I never attempted to downplay Frieza's durability. But even if you want to use the fact that Frieza was sliced into pieces before being blasted, there is still King Cold, who was directly killed by ki attacks, neither of which held planet level destructive force.

Also, we already know he could survive a planetary explosion because we saw him do it. But a direct planet buster? No.


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## God Movement (Apr 18, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> Except I never attempted to downplay Frieza's durability. But even if you want to use the fact that Frieza was sliced into pieces before being blasted, there is still King Cold, who was directly killed by ki attacks, neither of which held planet level destructive force.



King Cold was killed by a ki blast that impaled him in his heart area. It wasn't the destructive type (i.e. explosion) and thus the two types of damage are unrelated.



> Also, we already know he could survive a planetary explosion because we saw him do it. But a direct planet buster? No.



Never once claimed he could survive a direct planet buster.


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## Final Giku Tenshou (Apr 18, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> Also, we already know he could survive a planetary explosion because we saw him do it. But a direct planet buster? No.



Considering the fact that Freeza survived being cut in half, an attack that contained his own attack as well as Goku's attack as a Super Saiyan, and then a planet exploding on top of his ass, I'd say he has the ability to survive a planet buster attack, especially considering he was below half his normal strength at that point. In fact, he was only able to move because he had what little power Son Goku gave to him. At 100%, Freeza should be able to tank a planet busting attack, and come out with little to moderate damage.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 18, 2010)

Bullshit. The energy absorbed just being on the surface is orders of magnitude less than the entire explosion.


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## Final Giku Tenshou (Apr 18, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Bullshit. The energy absorbed just being on the surface is orders of magnitude less than the entire explosion.



You are clearly not understanding the magnitude of what Freeza survived, and at what level of strength he did it at. He survived being cut in half, which weakened him to a considerable amount, more than likely below even 25% of his strength, honestly to the point where he couldn't even move. He then took a blow from his own attack combined with Son Goku's, which weakened him further, and actually shot him _into the planet_. At which point, the planet exploded, while he was buried _somewhere _inside it. Freeza was never at the surface, he was underneath the ground somewhere. He survived all of this, while _below 25% and more than likely 10% of his maximum power_. Freeza could tank a planet buster and live.


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## Raigen (Apr 18, 2010)

I've said it before, I'll say it again. DBZ'ers can control the range and effectiveness of their attacks. Even with the output necessary to planet-bust and/or overcome someone of planet-nuking durability, they can keep the range of the effect down to a small area. If they didn't or weren't capable of doing this, not only would planets be getting destroyed left and right, but the Z-fighters would all be killed due to lack of a planet with a breathable atmosphere.

You see this kind of thing all the times, both in anime/manga and comics. People like Thanos, Hulk, Drax, and others can destroy planets through sheer physical strength, and have, and any number of these guys have fought against each other and still not destroyed the planet they were on. They either; A) Did not go all-out or B) controlled the AoE of their abilities to only their immediate vicinity to avoid planetary destruction.

It's really the only thing that makes sense. Vegeta lobbed a planet-buster at Freeza in their fight and Freeza punted it into space, and Freeza was only using a fraction of his power at the time. I was concluding that it took a PL force of 25k to blow up a planet (for DBZ at least. Any astronomical values or figures in physics I can't even try to consider with this). At the very best, Freeza at that time could generate an attack force 48x that which is required for planet-busting. Again, this is all just for DBZ relations and that was at his base level in Final Form.

In either case, Freeza demonstrated that, in a weakened, unconscious and beaten state with his power close to depleted, he still survived Namek exploding and was floating in space a while before King Cold picked him up.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 18, 2010)

GikuHonishimo said:


> You are clearly not understanding the magnitude of what Freeza survived, and at what level of strength he did it at. He survived being cut in half, which weakened him to a considerable amount, more than likely below even 25% of his strength



Number pulled out of your ass.



> honestly to the point where he couldn't even move. He then took a blow from his own attack combined with Son Goku's, which weakened him further, and actually shot him _into the planet_.



Blatant lie.



> At which point, the planet exploded, while he was buried _somewhere _inside it. Freeza was never at the surface, he was underneath the ground somewhere. He survived all of this, while _below 25% and more than likely 10% of his maximum power_. Freeza could tank a planet buster and live.



Wrong, you're simply making that part up. He was on the surface.



> I've said it before, I'll say it again. DBZ'ers can control the range and effectiveness of their attacks. Even with the output necessary to planet-bust and/or overcome someone of planet-nuking durability, they can keep the range of the effect down to a small area. If they didn't or weren't capable of doing this, not only would planets be getting destroyed left and right, but the Z-fighters would all be killed due to lack of a planet with a breathable atmosphere.



Please shut up, this argument has been shot down so many times it's not funny. It defies basic conservation of energy and there is no evidence for such a thing whatsoever.



> You see this kind of thing all the times, both in anime/manga and comics. People like Thanos, Hulk, Drax, and others can destroy planets through sheer physical strength, and have, and any number of these guys have fought against each other and still not destroyed the planet they were on. They either; A) Did not go all-out or B) controlled the AoE of their abilities to only their immediate vicinity to avoid planetary destruction.



Physical force can be ameliorated by the angle of the target, energy attacks don't have that excuse.



> It's really the only thing that makes sense. Vegeta lobbed a planet-buster at Freeza in their fight and Freeza punted it into space, and Freeza was only using a fraction of his power at the time.



Yet it didn't actually detonate until after he kicked it away, so he didn't tank it. It's like if someone threw a hand grenade at me and I threw it back before it exploded.



> I was concluding that it took a PL force of 25k to blow up a planet (for DBZ at least. Any astronomical values or figures in physics I can't even try to consider with this).



Of course you can't, because you are scientifically ignorant. 2.4e32j for a planet with the size and mass of earth.



> At the very best, Freeza at that time could generate an attack force 48x that which is required for planet-busting. Again, this is all just for DBZ relations and that was at his base level in Final Form.



Wrong, because power levels do not scale like that. They are not consistent or logical.

Here's a much more reasonable explanation: We already know that DBZ characters use a sort of ki aura to defend themselves. Someone with stronger ki can compromise this aura with their own power without actually hitting them with the amount of conventional power it would take to breach it.

Let's say a character has an aura that would take 25 gigatons (random number for the purposes of demonstration) to overcome. Now against a conventional bomb or something it would need to be that strong to break it. But with the way ki interacts with it, if someone else has higher ki, they can fire an attack that only has, say, 1 kiloton of force, and it will disrupt the frequency of the other guy's ki aura due to it being from a stronger ki, thus negating it. This explanation is much more logical.


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## Raigen (Apr 18, 2010)

You just don't like the idea of them being capable of this. How else do you hurt someone whose durability is planet-level and above? And the fact you keep trying to apply physics to a fictional debate is just ridiculous. Such things only apply at the creators discretion.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 18, 2010)

Appeal to motive fallacy. Furthermore physics always apply unless it's specifically shown that they don't. Or else I can say that planets in DBZverse are really made of cardboard and it takes less energy to destroy one than it does to power a lightbulb.


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## Raigen (Apr 18, 2010)

Explain a Saibaman, with equal power to Raditz, self-detonating and only affecting an area of a few yards when Raditz is capable of mountain-chain busting and above, given Piccolo could moon-bust. Or SS2 Majin Vegeta releasing *All of his Power* in a suicide move to kill Fat Buu and that still not destroying the planet, much less a continent or country, despite him having many times the power capable of performing such a feat.


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## Fang (Apr 18, 2010)

A Saibaman/Cultivar has a battle-power of 1200...Raditz has a battle-power of 1500.


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## Raigen (Apr 18, 2010)

Uh, Raditz's was 1200. Goku's kame attack was over 1100 to which Raditz blocked. Raditz evaded Piccolo's 1st SBC which was over 1300, and still got hurt by the brush of it, and was killed by the 2nd one which exceeded 1400.


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## Fang (Apr 18, 2010)

No, it was retconned. So your still wrong.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 18, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Explain a Saibaman, with equal power to Raditz, self-detonating and only affecting an area of a few yards when Raditz is capable of mountain-chain busting and above, given Piccolo could moon-bust. Or SS2 Majin Vegeta releasing *All of his Power* in a suicide move to kill Fat Buu and that still not destroying the planet, much less a continent or country, despite him having many times the power capable of performing such a feat.



Simple, if you had actually read my previous post. If they have a higher ki then the opponent, they can compromise their defensive ki aura without overwhelming it with more power. This theory explains what we see without resorting to idiotic claims like making 99.99999999999999999% of their power simply disappear into nothing.

Do I need to draw a diagram for you?


*Spoiler*: __ 









This makes more sense if you ask me. It's not contradicted by the evidence and it explains things better.


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## Level7N00b (Apr 18, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Explain a Saibaman, with equal power to Raditz, self-detonating and only affecting an area of a few yards when Raditz is capable of mountain-chain busting and above, given Piccolo could moon-bust. Or *SS2 Majin Vegeta releasing All of his Power in a suicide move to kill Fat Buu and that still not destroying the planet, much less a continent or country, despite him having many times the power capable of performing such a feat*.



I think that is because he put all of his power into an omnidirectional blast which was not concentrated into one focal point. Blasts like that usually don't have the power of something like a Galick Gun or something.

But, I might be wrong.


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## Shagari (Apr 18, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Explain a Saibaman, with equal power to Raditz, self-detonating and only affecting an area of a few yards when Raditz is capable of mountain-chain busting and above, given Piccolo could moon-bust. Or SS2 Majin Vegeta releasing *All of his Power* in a suicide move to kill Fat Buu and that still not destroying the planet, much less a continent or country, despite him having many times the power capable of performing such a feat.


The answer is simple: the blasts can be concentrated into different sizes. The Saibamen's self-destruction only had the AoE of a hand grenade, BUT it was obviously much more powerful than one. Otherwise, it wouldn't have killed Yamcha's who's battle power was already at least Raditz' at that point. Therefore, Saibamen's self-destruction is pretty much a hyper-condensed multi-mountain + buster. 

The same condensed AoE logic applies to the rest of DB. It applies to Trunks killing Frieza too.  Hyper condensed planet buster. 



TWF said:


> A Saibaman/Cultivar has a battle-power of 1200...Raditz has a battle-power of 1500.



Then why was Raditz badly injured by Gohan's headbutt which was only 1300-1400? And why did Nappa mention in both the manga and anime that each Saibamen had the same power level as Raditz? I think Raditz and Saibamen were more or less equal in power.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 18, 2010)

That doesn't make sense as energy will expand if it has the ability to do so. There's no way to keep that kind of energy contained without it having somewhere to safely dissipate.


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## Stilzkin (Apr 18, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> That doesn't make sense as energy will expand if it has the ability to do so. There's no way to keep that kind of energy contained without it having somewhere to safely dissipate.



Most series do stuff that wouldn't be possible according to physics, whats your point?


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## Hellspawn28 (Apr 18, 2010)

I have not got that far into BAA yet, but I don't think they have Planet busters? I don't think they have anything that they can beat them with?


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## Endless Mike (Apr 18, 2010)

Stilzkin said:


> Most series do stuff that wouldn't be possible according to physics, whats your point?



You can't just assume such a gross violation of physics when there is a more parsimonious explanation available.


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## Narcissus (Apr 18, 2010)

God Movement said:


> King Cold was killed by a ki blast that impaled him in his heart area. It wasn't the destructive type (i.e. explosion) and thus the two types of damage are unrelated.



Then you've basically just said their durability only covers certain kinds of attacks.



> Never once claimed he could survive a direct planet buster.



Which is what my point was from the start. I don't know what you've been arguing.



GikuHonishimo said:


> Considering the fact that Freeza survived being cut in half, an attack that contained his own attack as well as Goku's attack as a Super Saiyan, and then a planet exploding on top of his ass, I'd say he has the ability to survive a planet buster attack, especially considering he was below half his normal strength at that point. In fact, he was only able to move because he had what little power Son Goku gave to him. At 100%, Freeza should be able to tank a planet busting attack, and come out with little to moderate damage.



Your argument is using a lot of guess work. "Because Frieza survived this, he can survive that."

Especially saying that he would come out with little damage. The fact that stronger characters later in the series are killed by planet busters (i.e. Cell) also supports the fact that Frieza can not tank a planet buster.



Shagari said:


> The same condensed AoE logic applies to the rest of DB. It applies to Trunks killing Frieza too.  Hyper condensed planet buster.



No it wasn't.


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## Shagari (Apr 18, 2010)

Stilzkin said:


> Most series do stuff that wouldn't be possible according to physics, whats your point?



DBZ defies real world logic in some of the most disturbing ways


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## God Movement (Apr 19, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> Then you've basically just said their durability only covers certain kinds of attacks.



No, I've just said the two types of durability are completely unrelated. Just because you can tank a planet busting blast does not mean you can tank a planet shattering stab.



> Which is what my point was from the start. I don't know what you've been arguing.



I've been arguing that Trunks needed nowhere near a planet buster to kill either of them..


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## Raigen (Apr 19, 2010)

There's one thing that's always been consistent with class 100+ bricks and absurdly powerful guys; They're all vulnerable to slashing/piercing weapons/attacks.

Examples: Samurai Jack. Gets crushed by 700ton Sumoto. Is fine. Gets cut regularly by claws/blades from animals, robots, a yeti, and many others through whole series.

He-Man (2k). Takes hill-shattering blasts, hurls dozens to hundreds of tons of giant rocks and throws tower into closest star. Still gets hurt by blades and avoids sharp objects at all times

Hulk (marvel). Gets blasted by various weapons, bombs, and powers (ie Cyclops' optic blasts) which do all but nothing to him. Still gets shanked by Wolverine's claws, and X-23, and various bladed weapons in WWH.

I could give more examples but I'd say the point is clear. Besides, proven quite early on with just Nappa and Krillin. Krillin is nothing to Nappa yet Nappa was still in danger of being hurt and was in fact cut by Krillin's Disc when launched (proved again later when same move was used to cut off the end of Freeza's tail, despite Krilling being nowhere close to Freeza's level of power at the time).


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## Zaelapolopollo (Apr 19, 2010)

Debating Freeza's durability is all well and good but isn't it kinda irrelevant? I think he can one-shot every verse listed.
Except maybe S Cry Ed and Battle Angel Alita... I don't know anything about their power levels.


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 19, 2010)

> The fact that stronger characters later in the series are killed by planet busters (i.e. Cell) also supports the fact that Frieza can not tank a planet buster



There are planet busters who can beat DB characters both within and outside their verse so I'm not saying a planet buster would'nt kill Frieza or Cell but you have to consider that all planet busting attacks are not equal.


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## Koroshi (Apr 19, 2010)

Can he beat Schrodinger Alucard. 

Cause that's basically the only thing that he can't really defeat, except maybe S Cry Ed but I don't know.


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## Raigen (Apr 19, 2010)

Well, he can obliterate Alucard, but can't remove him from Time itself so he can't permanently get rid of Alucard. But, there isn't a fuckin thing anyone in the Hellsing-verse can do about Freeza, at all. As for SCE, do they even have planet-busters?

Anyway, we know blade/slashing/piercing stuff doesn't always work on DBZ'ers, especially if they're expecting it. Freeza wasn't and he got turned into sushi. When Trunks sparred Goku, Goku was prepared and focused chi into his finger to stop the blade effortlessly. Similarly, #18 blocked and chipped Mirai Trunks' sword with just her bare arm. Earlier in Freeza Saga, Freeza's finger beams are piercing attacks, and SS Goku took one right to the face and at best gave him a bloody lip.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 19, 2010)

All the verses lunch all there cutting attacks at Freiza  at once and he’s sure to get decapitated.


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## Alita (Apr 19, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Well, he can obliterate Alucard, but can't remove him from Time itself so he can't permanently get rid of Alucard. But, there isn't a fuckin thing anyone in the Hellsing-verse can do about Freeza, at all. As for SCE, do they even have planet-busters?
> 
> Anyway, we know blade/slashing/piercing stuff doesn't always work on DBZ'ers, especially if they're expecting it. Freeza wasn't and he got turned into sushi. When Trunks sparred Goku, Goku was prepared and focused chi into his finger to stop the blade effortlessly. Similarly, #18 blocked and chipped Mirai Trunks' sword with just her bare arm. Earlier in Freeza Saga, Freeza's finger beams are piercing attacks, and SS Goku took one right to the face and at best gave him a bloody lip.


From what I remember kazuma destroyed a dimmension in the manga.


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## Raigen (Apr 19, 2010)

I thought he only punched into it and that was more or less due to the nature of his Alter powers that, in fact, come from another/said dimension anyway.


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## Narcissus (Apr 19, 2010)

God Movement said:


> No, I've just said the two types of durability are completely unrelated. Just because you can tank a planet busting blast does not mean you can tank a planet shattering stab.



So, in other words, you are saying their durability is less than planetary in different areas.




> I've been arguing that Trunks needed nowhere near a planet buster to kill either of them..



Because he found ways around their durability. In other words, even if they could tank a direct planet buster (which there is no real evidence of) he clearly showed that there are ways to circumvent that.



Tranquil Fury said:


> There are planet busters who can beat DB characters both within and outside their verse so I'm not saying a planet buster would'nt kill Frieza or Cell but you have to consider that all planet busting attacks are not equal.



I'm well aware of that. My point however was that saying Frieza wouldn't even be heavily damaged by  a planet destroying attack, when he hasn't even shown the capability to survive one, was foolish when stronger characters have been killed by such attacks (albeit with more force).


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## HeOf7 (Apr 20, 2010)

How long would it take freiza to travel from the Venus to Pluto without his space ship?


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## Shagari (Apr 20, 2010)

HeOf7 said:


> How long would it take freiza to travel from the Venus to Pluto without his space ship?



He's only massively hypersonic or about mach 100 in flight speed so it'll take him a very long time. Probably a few days at least considering that it even took Saiyan saga Goku a whole day to travel 1 million km (equating to about mach 30).

Pluto to Mercury is a few hundred million km apart so yeah it will take a long long time.


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## CrazyMoronX (Apr 20, 2010)

You forgot to add Naruto.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 20, 2010)

Shagari said:


> He's only massively hypersonic or about mach 100 in flight speed so it'll take him a very long time. Probably a few days at least considering that it even took Saiyan saga Goku a whole day to travel 1 million km (equating to about mach 30).
> 
> Pluto to Mercury is a few hundred million km apart so yeah it will take a long long time.




Then it?s going to take him a long long time to beat BAA verse.


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## Shagari (Apr 20, 2010)

HeOf7 said:


> Then it?s going to take him a long long time to beat BAA verse.



What if we gave him an intergalactic space ship? No more transportation problems lol.


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## Fang (Apr 20, 2010)

Shagari said:


> He's only massively hypersonic or about mach 100 in flight speed so it'll take him a very long time. Probably a few days at least considering that it even took Saiyan saga Goku a whole day to travel 1 million km (equating to about mach 30).
> 
> Pluto to Mercury is a few hundred million km apart so yeah it will take a long long time.



Freeza is well above mach 100.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 20, 2010)

Shagari said:


> What if we gave him an intergalactic space ship? No more transportation problems lol.



Can?t argue with that.


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## Raigen (Apr 20, 2010)

Freeza's FTL (not massively, just barely) when at 100%. Anyway it's kind of ridiculous to argue his speed now since the thread OP gave them all equal speed, so either Freeza got dumbed down or everyone else got sped up.

In either case these guys, all of them, don't even have enough power output to get passed Freeza's base form, let alone attempt any of his transformed states. I mean, c'mon. His base level is 550,000. His max power in Final Form is 120mil.


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## Fang (Apr 20, 2010)

No he isn't.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 20, 2010)

Hellspawn28 said:


> I have not got that far into BAA yet, but I don't think they have Planet busters? I don't think they have anything that they can beat them with?



They do, actually, however they are not something that could be spammed or leveled at a human size target with any kind of expediency.



Alita54 said:


> From what I remember kazuma destroyed a dimmension in the manga.



Unless we know more about the context behind this it's kind of meaningless.



TWF said:


> No he isn't.



Raigen keeps making claims that have been thoroughly disproven and he knows this. That's why he's a troll. No one in DBZ is even 1% of lightspeed.


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## Shock Therapy (Apr 20, 2010)

Nobody in DBZ is actually FTL so I don't know where you're getting Freiza is.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 20, 2010)

rawrawraw said:


> Nobody in DBZ is actually FTL so I don't know where you're getting Freiza is.



It's Raigen. Best to just ignore him.


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## Raigen (Apr 20, 2010)

Roshi nuked moon in under 4sec, that's just under lightspeed. Piccolo repeats feat before Saiyan Arrival. Nappa dodges attacks from Piccolo, Vegeta is faster than Nappa. You people don't disprove anything you just gang up on people who bring up a legitimate argument.

Now, Vegeta is faster in Freeza Saga by Ginyu Arrival. He was made to stand still when Burter blitzed passed across miles, got the BD Vegeta tossed, and returned to his starting position before Vegeta could even see it or turn around. Then Goku blitzes Burter. I don't see how you can continue to contest their speed when it's obvious. Then the deal with Freeza and them fighting over a third of the planet which is roughly estimated as at least larger than Earth. It was practically a given they were at least lightspeed by this time.

Now, frankly, I don't care much for you biased opinions on these matters nor do I care that you solidly believe that travel/distance speed is all that matters when DBZ is more focused on combat speed. Really, if a guy can shoot a beam at lightspeed/FTL and targeted fellow easily evades, then guess what; He's that fast too.

Now, as I've already said, before your absurd and degrading remarks which only serve to make mockery of yourselves, Freeza's actual speed makes no difference because the OP specified that speed was equalized.


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 20, 2010)

Another long post from Raigen which doesn't prove anything


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 20, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Roshi nuked moon in under 4sec, that's just under lightspeed. Piccolo repeats feat before Saiyan Arrival. Nappa dodges attacks from Piccolo, Vegeta is faster than Nappa. You people don't disprove anything you just gang up on people who bring up a legitimate argument.
> 
> Now, Vegeta is faster in Freeza Saga by Ginyu Arrival. He was made to stand still when Burter blitzed passed across miles, got the BD Vegeta tossed, and returned to his starting position before Vegeta could even see it or turn around. Then Goku blitzes Burter. I don't see how you can continue to contest their speed when it's obvious. Then the deal with Freeza and them fighting over a third of the planet which is roughly estimated as at least larger than Earth. It was practically a given they were at least lightspeed by this time.
> 
> ...


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## Raigen (Apr 20, 2010)

Piccol nuked moon in few seconds. Shown in Manga. Didn't take more than an instant to charge the attack.
this big
this big

Average distance from Earth-Moon is 720,000mi. It would take an object moving at lightspeed to reach it in 3.87sec from Earth. How long much time do you think that blast took to reach the moon? 2 maybe 3 seconds? If so, it was moving in excess of lightspeed. Given the casual nature of the attack (no-named non-specific), and that figures like Nappa (6k PL) could dodge said attacks easily after Piccolo's training which boosted his abilities, then I don't see how these people could be anything but lightspeed and above.

Now, get over it.


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## Level7N00b (Apr 20, 2010)

DBZ is obviously faster than light.







































In Raigen's dreams.


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 20, 2010)

I like how you pulled a random number out from your ass as if that's the actual time it took Piccolo to nuke the moon, aside from being way off about the distance from the earth to the moon. Stop being a louse.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 20, 2010)

I already debunked these exact arguments before in another thread, but you just ignored me and posted them again. Why do the mods allow this kind of shit?


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## Raigen (Apr 20, 2010)

> The average distance between Earth and Moon is approximately 30 times Earth's diameter.



Taken from same page. Diameter of Earth (roughly the equator) is 24,000mi. 30x that is 720,000mi. If these values are wrong, then why not show the correct distance instead of blatantly disregarding evidence because you don't like it?


> I like how you pulled a random number out from your ass as if that's the actual time it took Piccolo to nuke the moon, aside from being way off about the distance from the earth to the moon. Stop being a louse.



It's not a random number when you see the almost immediate effect it has on Gohan once the moon was destroyed and given *everyone* on these boards estimate time/distance when there is no Narration to state such between images/panels then my estimations are completely reasonable. Now unless you two can come up with a better estimation that fits the scenes provided then go back to your corner together and continue seething with hate towards DBZ. But until you actually have something substantial, I advice keeping the criticism and sarcasm to yourselves.

Now


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 20, 2010)

So now you're using an appeal to motive fallacy


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 20, 2010)

Oh no you didn't post House.


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## Narcissus (Apr 20, 2010)

The irony.


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## Raigen (Apr 20, 2010)

Charcan said:


> Oh no you didn't post House.




I so did.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 20, 2010)

Raigen, stop posting shit that has been refuted dozens of times. There was no timeframe given for that, and 99% of the time ki blasts don't travel anywhere near that fast. In addition, characters still take several minutes to fly to another place on earth at the end of the manga. It's likely ki blasts travel faster outside of the atmosphere for some reason.


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## Raigen (Apr 20, 2010)

What? don't travel that fast? Maybe cause they explode upon impact mostly and there have been other instances outside of Roshi's moonbusting of ki blasts shooting offworld. All you guys have done is try to insult me, which does not help your case. You blather on about how you believe they don't travel at such a speed even when it's shown to you directly from the Main Canon source.

Now, do any of you have an approximate distance from the Earth to the Moon? If so, then state it. If not, then don't question the values presented.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 20, 2010)

Raigen said:


> What? don't travel that fast? Maybe cause they explode upon impact mostly and there have been other instances outside of Roshi's moonbusting of ki blasts shooting offworld.



Except they can not only be tracked by normal humans, but even dodged by them...



> All you guys have done is try to insult me, which does not help your case. You blather on about how you believe they don't travel at such a speed even when it's shown to you directly from the Main Canon source.



No it's not. You are wanking crap based on outliers and inconsistent feats. You're wrong. Fucking get over it.



> Now, do any of you have an approximate distance from the Earth to the Moon? If so, then state it. If not, then don't question the values presented.



That's not the issue! I've already explained this dozens of times. You are just being willfully ignorant now. There was no timeframe given, and ki blasts almost never travel anywhere near that fast. My theory is that they move faster once they leave the atmosphere, that explains things much better.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 20, 2010)

The moon in dragonball was what like a mile in diameter?


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## Raigen (Apr 20, 2010)

> Except they can not only be tracked by normal humans, but even dodged by them...



Since when do Krillin, Tien, Chouzu and Yamcha count as "normal" humans? And if you believe Budokai tournaments, they only see the after-effect. Normal humans couldn't even see Krillin and Roshi's fight in the 21st Budokai. Energy attacks are flashy and all anyone will see is the light effect/explosion after said attack. So, your argument is debunked.

If you mean Hercule, he's a Toonforcer and acts as comedic relief.



> No it's not. You are wanking crap based on outliers and inconsistent feats.



Roshi blew up the moon. Piccolo blew up the moon again years later. How is that inconsistent?



> That's not the issue! I've already explained this dozens of times. You are just being willfully ignorant now. There was no timeframe given, and ki blasts almost never travel anywhere near that fast. My theory is that they move faster once they leave the atmosphere, that explains things much better.



It's precisely the issue. Instead of trying to actually refute my arguments and calculations you're just attacking me personally for no other reason than simple hate and bias. My explanations and figures are completely reasonable and fit within the context of the scans provided. 

Assume the estimates for distance between the Earth and Moon are correct for the moment. Roughly, how fast do you believe Piccolo is at the time of Raditz? You give me a number, and I'll tell you it's wrong. Because, assuming that distance is correct, if the attack produced was even so much as Mach 500, it'd take 113 minutes to travel a distance of 720k miles. And, judging by the scenes provided, it would be impossible for that much time to have elapsed between the launching of the attack to the moon's destruction and Gohan's reversion to normal.


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## Shagari (Apr 20, 2010)

HeOf7 said:


> The moon in dragonball was what like a mile in diameter?


What makes you think that is only 1 mile in diameter?

So your saying the DB moon is only 1 mile in diameter and hangs about 200 miles above the atmosphere?


Kind of like this? (except it isn't 200 miles high)



Why do we have to make assumptions like that?


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## HeOf7 (Apr 20, 2010)

Man it’s been awhile snits I watched dragonball but I think it literally was.


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## Raigen (Apr 20, 2010)

Dragon Ball had a lot of Toon Factor in it. By around the middle of it a lot of the Toonforcing was dropped. I know what you're alluding to, the scene where Goku takes those two crooks to the Moon using the nyoibo to extend them all the way up to the moon and drop them off. It was a Toon moment. In the anime Goku was gone for less than an hour. In the Manga it seemed to only take a couple of minutes or so.


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## Shagari (Apr 20, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Dragon Ball had a lot of Toon Factor in it. By around the middle of it a lot of the Toonforcing was dropped. I know what you're alluding to, the scene where Goku takes those two crooks to the Moon using the nyoibo to extend them all the way up to the moon and drop them off. It was a Toon moment. In the anime Goku was gone for less than an hour. In the Manga it seemed to only take a couple of minutes or so.


It's hard to tell how much time has pasted on a manga (unless it was implicitly stated). And I've heard people dismiss Roshi's moon buster as toon force as well as other planet busting feats.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 20, 2010)

You're just repeating the same crap I've repeatedly explained. You're basing everything on 2 outlier/contradictory feats that are disproven by tons of shit like the Yakon fight, and pretty much every other instance in the manga. It's the same reason why people are not FTL in One Piece just because they can tag Kizaru. It's obvious no one takes you seriously, so I'll just conclude with this:


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## Cooler (Apr 26, 2010)

Vegeta's all out blast against Frieza would have destroyed the planet, unless Frieza at 100% is still vulnerable to Vegeta's attacks he can tank planet busters.

Also Frieza with ki so low Goku and King Kai thought he was dead survived Nameks destruction, so yes Frieza is extremely durable. Most likely with planet level durability.


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## Narcissus (Apr 26, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Vegeta's all out blast against Frieza would have destroyed the planet, unless Frieza at 100% is still vulnerable to Vegeta's attacks he can tank planet busters.
> 
> Also Frieza with ki so low Goku and King Kai thought he was dead survived Nameks destruction, so yes Frieza is extremely durable. Most likely with planet level durability.



Wow, you just revived a thread to say nothing.

There wasn't any concrete evidence that Vegeta's attack would've destroyed the planet, and Frieza kicked it away before it exploded. And the surviving planet Namek's destruction has already been dealt with.

So saying he is "extremely durable" is all well and good, but it does not mean he could tank a direct planet buster.


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## Raigen (Apr 26, 2010)

> It's hard to tell how much time has pasted on a manga (unless it was implicitly stated). And I've heard people dismiss Roshi's moon buster as toon force as well as other planet busting feats.



They like to dismiss evidence regarding DB/Z too. Roshi moonbusting wasn't TF because Piccolo replicates this feat in early DBZ (which is still Dragon Ball to Akira Toriyama. The Z is just for the rest of us to note as time-skip and next series). Also it's been about 6yrs, give or take a few months. Gohan when he first appears is 5 1/2yrs old, meaning, given Goku and Chi-Chi getting married, doin the nasty at some point and poppin a kid out 9mo later, then tack on Gohan's age and it's been roughly over 6yrs since the 23rd Budokai. It's really not hard to figure out and at any point in that time they coulda use the DB's to wish back the moon. It's the easiest and most logical explanation.



> Vegeta's all out blast against Frieza would have destroyed the planet, unless Frieza at 100% is still vulnerable to Vegeta's attacks he can tank planet busters.



1% Freeza deflected that attack. Freeza, beaten and near death with body parts missing after getting hit with Goku's last attack still survived Namek exploding.



> There wasn't any concrete evidence that Vegeta's attack would've destroyed the planet, and Frieza kicked it away before it exploded. And the surviving planet Namek's destruction has already been dealt with.



Saiyan Saga Vegeta could produce a planet-buster by going all out, punching his power close to 25k, roughly estimated as it was only barely being held back by Goku's 3xKaioken Kamehameha which was 24k and used 4xKaioken to stop it and push Vegeta back (4xKaikoken pushed him to 32k briefly and left his body horribly taxed). Base level Freeza at 550k can easily bust planets, it's shown and proven. Vegeta after being healed from near-death by Dende got knocked up to over 1mil PL and still failed against 1% final form Freeza.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 26, 2010)

It takes Freiza like 10 freaking episodes to destroy one planet smaller then earth. While Freiza is saying how powerful he is and how big his nonexistent penis is somebody is going to cut him in half. Considering how ludicrously inconsistent DBZ is I find it hard to take any of it seriously.


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## Raigen (Apr 26, 2010)

You're trying to go by the anime, which is frowned upon, even when the fans use it. And if you used the anime you'd have to admit the mega-planetbusting that goes on in it. Vegeta's attack, after being punted away, exploded in space with a blast larger than the planet. Later when Freeza fights Goku, Freeza fires a giant energy ball which Goku catches and punches into space, which in a few seconds collides with a nearby planet and destroys it.


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## Level7N00b (Apr 26, 2010)

Just five more minutes 'till this planet blows...

*22 episodes 2 hours later...*

Just one more minute 'till this planet blows...

*5 episodes, three hours later...*

Just one more second 'till this planet blows...


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 26, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Just five more minutes 'till this planet blows...
> 
> *22 episodes 2 hours later...*
> 
> ...



the anime was hilarious like that. 

'30 episodes later and Goku is still stuck in that damned healing pod'


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## Raigen (Apr 26, 2010)

That whole bit was more stupid than funny. For one, Goku's pl before going in was 90k. When he comes out of it, it's 3mil. Meaning Goku became over 33x stronger after getting body changed and raped by everything, which was stupid. Also, the whole countdown thing was never really noted in the manga. least not after the first 5min remark and that was after Freeza vaped the core and complained he held back too much.


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## Level7N00b (Apr 26, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> the anime was hilarious like that.
> 
> '30 episodes later and Goku is still stuck in that damned healing pod'



And Vegeta said that with Goku's height and weight, it shouldn't have taken more than an hour. Frieza dicked around for clearly more than an hour!


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## HeOf7 (Apr 26, 2010)

Raigen said:


> *That whole bit was more stupid than funny*. For one, Goku's pl before going in was 90k. When he comes out of it, it's 3mil. Meaning Goku became over 33x stronger after getting body changed and raped by everything, which was stupid. Also, the whole countdown thing was never really noted in the manga. least not after the first 5min remark and that was after Freeza vaped the core and complained he held back too much.



*Like the entirety of DBZ*.  Why didn’t freiza just blow the Fing paint up right under Goko.


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## Level7N00b (Apr 26, 2010)

Because Frieza's head is so far up his ass that he has to prove his superiority above all else. He also was never going to be willing to accept defeat from a race he considered inferior to him. He only resorted o destroying the planet when he got desperate.


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## Raigen (Apr 26, 2010)

HeOf7 said:


> *Like the entirety of DBZ*.  Why didn?t freiza just blow the Fing paint up right under Goko.



*PIS*. The dude had a pl of 12million at 1% power and 60mil at 50%. He dicked around way too much and hell even told himself that, but yet continued to screw around with them until Goku went Super Saiyan and was finally a threat.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 26, 2010)

Raigen said:


> *PIS*. The dude had a pl of 12million at 1% power and 60mil at 50%. He dicked around way too much and hell even told himself that, but yet continued to screw around with them until Goku went Super Saiyan and was finally a threat.



And I?m sure none of that?s hyperbole


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## Raigen (Apr 26, 2010)

HeOf7 said:


> And I?m sure none of that?s hyperbole



It's not. It's straight from the raw of Daizenshuu 7. Even I thought it was bullshit at first.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 26, 2010)

WTF is that I can’t read Kanji.


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## Raigen (Apr 26, 2010)

The main Kanji for this is _oku_ which translates to 100mil and _man_ which means ten-thousand. You look at the middle Goku where it says 300 _man_. That's 300 ten-thousands, or 300x10000 which equals 3mil. Yes I know it's hard to figure out. I had to have the Kanji explained then I had to run, find translators and prove their meaning and it's just ridiculous. But it's all straight from Toriyama with this.


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## Orochibuto (Apr 26, 2010)

Mugen Tsukuyomi should be able to work......... I mean if all verses have their fullest weapons a combination of Philosophers Stone and Mugen Tsukuyomi should be able to defeat Freiza


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## HeOf7 (Apr 26, 2010)

I have a Kanji dictionary that I was looking for, I didn’t find it but ill take your word 4 it.

What exactly does a DBZ power level equate to?  

CIS is on for Freiza his going to be doing a lot of dicking around.


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## Raigen (Apr 26, 2010)

I used a cheap free translator to find the meanings from eng/jap and/or jap/english translations -> 

It's not that good, but it works and it has the meanings for _man_ and _oku_ as they were explained to me, so I accepted it. As for what the PL's equate to, hell if I know. My best estimate was a pl of 24-25k having enough to nuke a planet and you'd need something like 34-billion to nuke the sun. This number I only got through multiplying the force to destroy the Earth next to how many times the earth could fit inside the sun. It know, it's a shoddy estimation, but that's my best guess and they don't hit that mark until end of Cell Games.

If you wanted a real number for planet-busting and over, it'd be something like 4.5terajoules. That much energy released all at once could blow up a planet or two. Is it true? Well, I can't say. In this regard I'm only repeating a statement made from Vampire Hunter D and not a science book. However the VHD series has actually been very, very accurate in these regards. Of course if that number is correct then it would mean that a person with 25k Pl can unleash around 4.5terajoules of energy. However that is a lot of speculation and really attempting to try and give a theoretical number to how much energy a DBZ'er has inside them or can unleash and give it a real value outside of "Power Level" is all but impossible.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 26, 2010)

DBZ might as well be the Fing Loony-toons with all its PIS and inconsistencies.


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## Raigen (Apr 26, 2010)

Well some people try and use Cell's hyperbole of "I have gathered enough energy to destroy the entire solar system!" as fact when, clearly, even using my horrendous mathematics it's wrong. The only way his statement would have any value would be if he blasted the Sun and made it unto a super-nova which would destroy the Solar system. That 'might' be within his power to do. His Solar-Kamehameha as SPC (Super Perfect Cell) was put at like 60-billion, almost double my projected requirement for sun-busting (or at least destroying an object the size of the sun).

Whether or not it's true it's probably the most accurate you'll ever get with DBZ, and I had to actually use it to put down other rampaging DBZ fans who blindly believed Cell's hyperbole statement. Because, truthfully, no one outside the movies has done what he claimed.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

Raigen once again demonstrates his ignorance. The sun is a main sequence star, it will never go supernova, and simply dumping a bunch of energy into it will not make it do so. The only way for that to happen would be to either remove the core instantly, or to halt all nuclear fusion, both of which there is no known way to accomplish (you would need reality warping or some kind of weird scifi technology to do that).


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## Raigen (Apr 26, 2010)

It's *fiction.* Laws of physics and reality are at the writers discretion. If Toriyama wanted a DBZ char to blow up a star, he'd have them blow up a star. He doesn't need to explain how he did it aside from the fact his power was great enough to do it.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

Blowing up a star =/= causing a supernova. If that did happen in the manga, we would have to assume that their attack had some strange property that allowed that, but since it has not, we cannot assume they can as they do not have the type of ability required to do that. This is basic logic.


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## Raigen (Apr 26, 2010)

To hence why I explained that the only way Cell, or any DBZ'er for that matter, to destroy the solar system would be to nuke the sun and cause a super nova. Whether or not that could actually happen is not the question nor the point, it is simply a statement pertaining to how much force a DBZ'er would actually require for something of this nature. As far as whatever my numbers are worth, Cell *could* blow up a star, whether or not he could trigger a super-nova is another matter and one I don't care to get into. I was just saying that outside of triggering one, Cell nor anyone else (besides Brolly) can solar-system bust.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

No amount of pure brute force could induce a supernova in a main sequence star. I explained this to you already.


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## Raigen (Apr 26, 2010)

And you obviously continue to miss what I'm saying if for no other reason than to remain smug with yourself.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 26, 2010)

No, you're just being willfully ignorant. You are claiming that it can be done by brute force and then appealing to the "it's fiction lol" defense despite the fact that there is no precedent for any such thing in the manga. Stop trolling.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 26, 2010)

Raigen said:


> It's *fiction.* Laws of physics and reality are at the writers discretion. If Toriyama wanted a DBZ char to blow up a star, he'd have them blow up a star. He doesn't need to explain how he did it aside from the fact his power was great enough to do it.



Any of the writers of any of these verses could have their characters blow up a star. thay are *Fiction* after all.


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## Cooler (Apr 27, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> Wow, you just revived a thread to say nothing.
> 
> There wasn't any concrete evidence that Vegeta's attack would've destroyed the planet, and Frieza kicked it away before it exploded. And the surviving planet Namek's destruction has already been dealt with.
> 
> So saying he is "extremely durable" is all well and good, but it does not mean he could tank a direct planet buster.



Piccolo stated it (Vegeta's attack) would have destroyed the planet, thats enough.

And Frieza tanked Goku's much stronger Kamehameha with nothing but a burnt hand later on anyway.


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## David (Apr 27, 2010)

Frieza beats HST in midget form.


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## Narcissus (Apr 27, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Piccolo stated it (Vegeta's attack) would have destroyed the planet, thats enough.
> 
> And Frieza tanked Goku's much stronger Kamehameha with nothing but a burnt hand later on anyway.



You're bringing up points that have already been addressed.


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## Cooler (Apr 27, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> You're bringing up points that have already been addressed.



They have been? You're not talking about your last response are you.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 27, 2010)

Considering that Freiza could have destroyed the planet and let Goko sufficed to death at any time, but still got his ass killed has to make him about the F-ing dumbest villain in fiction.


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## Narcissus (Apr 27, 2010)

Cooler said:


> They have been? You're not talking about your last response are you.



I meant through the thread. But I'll explain it again:



> Piccolo stated it (Vegeta's attack) would have destroyed the planet, thats enough.



No, that is not enough. Piccolo had never seen a planet destroyed at that time, so his claim was not fully reliable.

And even if it was, Frieza did not tank the attack. He kicked it away before it exploded.



> And Frieza tanked Goku's much stronger Kamehameha with nothing but a burnt hand later on anyway.



And you're trying to use A>B>C logic, which does not work here because there is nothing to prove that Vegeta's attack (which you're basing your logic on) would have destroyed Namek.


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## Cooler (Apr 27, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> No, that is not enough. Piccolo had never seen a planet destroyed at that time, so his claim was not fully reliable.
> 
> And even if it was, Frieza did not tank the attack. He kicked it away before it exploded.



So we're just going to completely ignore Piccolo's comment? Piccolo's a smart guy I don't see why we should completely ignore it.

Also First Form Frieza is shown destroying Bardock and the Saiyans in a flashback in the Manga, and we know post Dende Zenkai Vegeta > First Form Frieza. 

Then there's Vegeta being >>>>> confirmed moon busters.

There's nothing to contradict Piccolo's statement and based on prior examples its not a stretch for Vegeta to be able to this when using all his ki. 

I know Frieza didn't tank it, he tanked Goku's stronger attack though.



> And you're trying to use A>B>C logic, which does not work here because there is nothing to prove that Vegeta's attack (which you're basing your logic on) would have destroyed Namek.



I think there's enough to support at the very least the possibility it was a planet buster, wouldn't you say its at least debatable? Goku's attack was also over 20x stronger than Vegeta's based on the difference between their ki's.

Link removed

Thats the explosion that Frieza with next to no ki survived, the black dots are the pieces of Namek. 

What level of durability would you give him?


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## HeOf7 (Apr 27, 2010)

Cooler said:


> *Piccolo's a smart guy *I don't see why we should completely ignore it.




He is a DBZ character so I find that kind of hard to believe.


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## Narcissus (Apr 27, 2010)

Cooler said:


> So we're just going to completely ignore Piccolo's comment? Piccolo's a smart guy I don't see why we should completely ignore it.



Saying he is "a smart guy" does not add veracity to his statement. For one thing, he had not seen a planet buster before, and he was in panic about Vegeta's attack killing everyone in the area too.



> Also First Form Frieza is shown destroying Bardock and the Saiyans in a flashback in the Manga, and we know post Dende Zenkai Vegeta > First Form Frieza.



Post the scan where Frieza kills Bardock and the Saiyans.



> Then there's Vegeta being >>>>> confirmed moon busters.



And you're just making a jump to planet level from there based on A>B>C> logic and statements.



> There's nothing to contradict Piccolo's statement and based on prior examples its not a stretch for Vegeta to be able to this when using all his ki.



Except for what I've just said up above.



> I know Frieza didn't tank it, he tanked Goku's stronger attack though.



And you're still using that A>B>C logic.



> I think there's enough to support at the very least the possibility it was a planet buster, wouldn't you say its at least debatable? Goku's attack was also over 20x stronger than Vegeta's based on the difference between their ki's.



There is a difference between something being debatable and tangible evidence. You're lacking the latter.



> Link removed
> 
> Thats the explosion that Frieza with next to no ki survived, the black dots are the pieces of Namek.



Which still isn't the same as tanking a planet buster.



> What level of durability would you give him?



Frieza's durability is different for different areas. He could handle blunt concussive force well enough, but could easily be cut and pierced.

But the point is, Frieza would not tank a head-on planet destroying attack and walk away with no damage, if he survived at all. 




HeOf7 said:


> He is a DBZ character so I find that kind of hard to believe.



Would you please shut up.


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## Cooler (Apr 27, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> Saying he is "a smart guy" does not add veracity to his statement. For one thing, he had not seen a planet buster before, and he was in panic about Vegeta's attack killing everyone in the area too.


 
Yes but Frieza in his weakest form destroyed Planet Vegeta, and Vegeta at this point was way stronger than that.



> Post the scan where Frieza kills Bardock and the Saiyans.



Link removed



> And you're just making a jump to planet level from there based on A>B>C> logic and statements.



I'm only using it to lend support to Piccolo's claim, I'm not using it alone to suggest that Vegeta must be a planet buster. 



> And you're still using that A>B>C logic.



Well if C is a planet buster than B and A must also be a planet buster.



> There is a difference between something being debatable and tangible evidence. You're lacking the latter.



Well there's the Manga scan above confirming the most supressed Frieza took out P.Vegeta.

The scene is taken right out of the special.



> Which still isn't the same as tanking a planet buster.



Welll the whole tanking planet busters hinges on Vegeta and Goku's attacks. Like I said Frieza in his First Form busted P.Vegeta and the attacks traded late in the Namek Saga are way stronger.

Frieza also survived that explosion in the poorest of states at full strength he's going to be much much more durable, not that I'm trying to say with this comment it means he's planet level durable.



> Frieza's durability is different for different areas. He could handle blunt concussive force well enough, but could easily be cut and pierced.



Trunks's sword is made of unknown materials, I wouldn't say he could be easily cut and pierced based on that. Plus Frieza at that point was a mere jobber.



> But the point is, Frieza would not tank a head-on planet destroying attack and walk away with no damage, if he survived at all.



I guess that depends on the planet buster. Surviving a planet buster albeit with heavy injury still qualifies you with planet level durability mind you.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 27, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> Would you please shut up.




No I don’t really feel like it.


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## Level7N00b (Apr 27, 2010)

HeOf7 said:


> He is a DBZ character so I find that kind of hard to believe.



Yes, he has Kami's vast wisdom and he should be counted as a dummy, amirite?


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## HeOf7 (Apr 27, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Yes, he has Kami's vast wisdom and he should be counted as a dummy, amirite?





O yeah that means so much. Could you I don?t know, post a pic of him doing something intelligent.


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## Level7N00b (Apr 27, 2010)

How about him blowing up the moon? If the moon was there when the Saiyans arrived, they would have really been fucked. Planning ahead.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 27, 2010)

No he blew up the moon because Gohan turned into a giant monkey and Vigeta turned into a giant monkey anyways.


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## Raigen (Apr 27, 2010)

Vegeta went Oozaru after launching a Moon Ball into the air which would generate the same effect as the full moon so that he could transform.


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## HeOf7 (Apr 27, 2010)

Yeah that’s great man.


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## Narcissus (Apr 27, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Yes but Frieza in his weakest form destroyed Planet Vegeta, and Vegeta at this point was way stronger than that.



We don't see Frieza destroy planet Vegeta.



> This. Is. The. Game narration telling you that the upgrade grants you light-speed movement. Either. Accept it. Or, don't.



Nothing in that scan showed him blowing up the planet, just killing Goku's father.



> I'm only using it to lend support to Piccolo's claim, I'm not using it alone to suggest that Vegeta must be a planet buster.



Doesn't work that way. If a statement is made, it needs to be backed up, not the other way around.



> Well if C is a planet buster than B and A must also be a planet buster.



Except Frieza was the first confirmed planet buster.



> Well there's the Manga scan above confirming the most supressed Frieza took out P.Vegeta.
> 
> The scene is taken right out of the special.



The special is not canon, and all that scan showed was Frieza killing Bardock.



> Welll the whole tanking planet busters hinges on Vegeta and Goku's attacks. Like I said Frieza in his First Form busted P.Vegeta and the attacks traded late in the Namek Saga are way stronger.
> 
> Frieza also survived that explosion in the poorest of states at full strength he's going to be much much more durable, not that I'm trying to say with this comment it means he's planet level durable.



Frieza was not actually shown destroying a planet until he was in his final form on Namek, and he was the first one we actually see do it. Nothing solid supports those below him in power to be planet busters. And the Planet Vegeta angle has already been dealt with.



> Trunks's sword is made of unknown materials, I wouldn't say he could be easily cut and pierced based on that. Plus Frieza at that point was a mere jobber.



Except Trunks  still pierced Frieza's father with a ki blast that had no planet level destruction to it.



> I guess that depends on the planet buster. Surviving a planet buster albeit with heavy injury still qualifies you with planet level durability mind you.



This would have some weight behind it if Frieza was actually shown to tank a planet buster at all, but he hasn't.



HeOf7 said:


> No I don?t really feel like it.



Negged.


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## Fang (Apr 27, 2010)

It's generally accepted that powered up Zenkai Vegeta before his death was a planet buster but it doesn't matter since like EM said Freeza didn't tank the blast, he kicked it into space (the equivalent to knocking away an unexploded grenade) after he over-heard Piccolo and the others freaking out abouit the amount of chi/ki that Vegeta put in it to take out Freeza.


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## Hellspawn28 (Apr 27, 2010)

> Nothing in that scan showed him blowing up the planet, just killing Goku's father



In that sceen he was talking about him meeting Bardock and how he destroyed Planet Vegeta IIRC?


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## Lord Raizen (Apr 28, 2010)

All things considered, Freeza would more likely than not solo all of the verses with medium difficulty at most.


He's practically undamagable as far as these verses are concerned, and he one-shots anyone. He could take out 90% of them by powering up or firing a single ki-blast. He would take the all of thier strongest attacks and shrug off the best of hax while standing in one spot.

With speed unequal, he wouldnt be touched by anything, let alone affected.


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## Narcissus (Apr 28, 2010)

Hellspawn28 said:


> In that sceen he was talking about him meeting Bardock and how he destroyed Planet Vegeta IIRC?



The link was posted on this very page, and like I said, it doesn't show him doing anything other than killing Goku's father.


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## Cooler (Apr 28, 2010)

TWF said:


> It's generally accepted that powered up Zenkai Vegeta before his death was a planet buster but it doesn't matter since like EM said Freeza didn't tank the blast, he kicked it into space (the equivalent to knocking away an unexploded grenade) after he over-heard Piccolo and the others freaking out abouit the amount of chi/ki that Vegeta put in it to take out Freeza.



But he tanked Goku's Kaioken times 20 Kamehameha which was a stronger attack.



Narcissus said:


> We don't see Frieza destroy planet Vegeta.



Its implied by that scene and the narration he did it in his First Form. Considering no one knew the true power of Frieza we know he didn't do it in his Final Form.



> Nothing in that scan showed him blowing up the planet, just killing Goku's father.



The Narrator states he destroyed the Saiyans along with Bardock.



> Doesn't work that way. If a statement is made, it needs to be backed up, not the other way around.



First Form Frieza busted P.Vegeta, thats the implication of the scan I showed you.



> Except Frieza was the first confirmed planet buster.



In his First Form.



> The special is not canon, and all that scan showed was Frieza killing Bardock.



No but the scene with Frieza killing Bardock is in the Manga. Like I've said before the implication of the panel and narration is Frieza did it in his First Form. Seeing as King Kai knew nothing of the true scope of Frieza's power and there's not even a hint that Frieza used his True Form we can say that it doesn't take Final Form Frieza strength to bust a planet.



> Frieza was not actually shown destroying a planet until he was in his final form on Namek, and he was the first one we actually see do it. Nothing solid supports those below him in power to be planet busters. And the Planet Vegeta angle has already been dealt with.



You haven't dealt with the P.Vegeta angle very well though...its implied Frieza did it in his First Form. Nothing indicates Frieza transformed 3 times above P.Vegeta into his True Form then blasted it. 



> Except Trunks  still pierced Frieza's father with a ki blast that had no planet level destruction to it.



So? Majin Vegeta released all his energy and didnt't destroy the planet as well. Ki attacks have strange properties which mean they can damage fighters which Planet Level durability without actually busting a planet.




> This would have some weight behind it if Frieza was actually shown to tank a planet buster at all, but he hasn't.



Well I think based on Piccolo's statement and the whole P.Vegeta stuff, Goku's 20x Kamehameha that Frieza tanked was a planet buster. Which is where the real debate lies. 

Frieza at a weakened 50% could have busted Namek in a single blow, this is stated by Goku. Goku with a Kaiokenx20 was roughly equal to Frieza's 50% and used his strongest attack (further amplifying his ki) which Frieza then tanked.


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## Shagari (Apr 28, 2010)

HeOf7 said:


> He is a DBZ character so I find that kind of hard to believe.


lol at that comment. DBZ lacks common sense due to PIS/CIS, but the characters themselves are stupid. 


TWF said:


> It's generally accepted that powered up Zenkai Vegeta before his death was a planet buster but it doesn't matter since like EM said Freeza didn't tank the blast, he kicked it into space (the equivalent to knocking away an unexploded grenade) after he over-heard Piccolo and the others freaking out abouit the amount of chi/ki that Vegeta put in it to take out Freeza.


True. It he kicked it away with minimal effort which was a very impressive feat itself. A being weaker than Vegeta at the time wouldn't have been able to kick it away. 

Anyways, I am pretty sure the only reason that attack was kicked way from the planet was because of plot (Namek wasn't ready to be destroyed at the time).


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## Alita (Apr 29, 2010)

Lord Raizen said:


> All things considered, Freeza would more likely than not solo all of the verses with medium difficulty at most.
> 
> 
> He's practically undamagable as far as these verses are concerned, and he one-shots anyone. He could take out 90% of them by powering up or firing a single ki-blast. He would take the all of thier strongest attacks and shrug off the best of hax while standing in one spot.
> ...


Actually kazuma are ryuho from s cry ed are confirmed massively hypersonic+ and if I'm not mistaken OBD lists them as light speed in their strongest forms. So both of them are faster than frieza at the least. Lucy's vectors at the end of the manga are at least massively hypersonic as the were able to travel from earth to outer space in like a second and frieza won't be able to see them. It's going to be pretty much impossible for frieza to kill alucard. If frieza is not careful dante could hit him with jackpot which would send him to hell like what happened to mundus I think. I also think dante's time items could possibly help here. And coulden't Boa Hancock from OP turn frieza into stone with speed equalized? Or crocodile drain him?


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## Narcissus (Apr 29, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Its implied by that scene and the narration he did it in his First Form. Considering no one knew the true power of Frieza we know he didn't do it in his Final Form.



No, that's your view of what happened. And we don't "know" anything other than the fact that he destroyed planet Vegeta. But we didn't see that. We saw him killing Bardock.



> The Narrator states he destroyed the Saiyans along with Bardock.



And? We know he did it, but we did not see him destroy the Sayins.



> First Form Frieza busted P.Vegeta, thats the implication of the scan I showed you.



Again, that is what you are claiming.



> In his First Form.



Wrong.



> No but the scene with Frieza killing Bardock is in the Manga. Like I've said before the implication of the panel and narration is Frieza did it in his First Form. Seeing as King Kai knew nothing of the true scope of Frieza's power and there's not even a hint that Frieza used his True Form we can say that it doesn't take Final Form Frieza strength to bust a planet.



And? You are basically saying that Frieza has never used his true form, which is obviously false. And King Kai is not all-knowing, so that angle does not improve your argument one bit.



> You haven't dealt with the P.Vegeta angle very well though...its implied Frieza did it in his First Form. Nothing indicates Frieza transformed 3 times above P.Vegeta into his True Form then blasted it.



And you still don't have anything solid to back this up with other than "it's implied." The fact of the matter is that we don't know how he did it at all.



> So? Majin Vegeta released all his energy and didnt't destroy the planet as well. Ki attacks have strange properties which mean they can damage fighters which Planet Level durability without actually busting a planet.



Which was why Vegeta had to redirect his Final Flash into space against Cell, right? And King Cold was still killed by an attack that was not a planet buster.

You really are not bringing forth anything to prove Frieza could tank a planet buster.




> Well *I think *based on Piccolo's statement and the whole P.Vegeta stuff, Goku's 20x Kamehameha that Frieza tanked was a planet buster. Which is where the real debate lies.



Argument from belief fallacy: This is when someone states that they personally believe something to be true, without providing any actual evidence.

Thus far you have not brought forth any real evidence, merely "implications" and your personal beliefs. Piccolo's statement is not evidence.



> Frieza at a weakened 50% could have busted Namek in a single blow, this is stated by Goku. Goku with a Kaiokenx20 was roughly equal to Frieza's 50% and used his strongest attack (further amplifying his ki) which Frieza then tanked.



Why don't you stop and use some common sense for a second. If Vegeta?s attack would have destroyed Namek, and Frieza could tank a stronger planet buster from Goku, why kick away the one Vegeta fired at him if he would not have been damaged by it? Why not tank the thing?

The overall point is that you are wrong. Frieza could not tank a planet destroying attack and come out undamaged.


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## Fang (Apr 29, 2010)

What the hell is "P. Vegeta"  exactly? As for the side tangent about Majin Vegeta, we know that DB characters (or at least those from Earth and magical/higher level beings) can control the output of their released energy/power.

That really isn't a compelling argument to compare a self destructive explosion to a focused blast.


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## Cooler (Apr 29, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> And? We know he did it, but we did not see him destroy the Sayins.



He was using a death ball, a technique he later tried to use to destroy Namek.



> Again, that is what you are claiming.



Its implied. What's your solution? Are you saying Frieza definately didn't bust Vegeta in his weakest form.



> Wrong.



Me? Don't think so.



> And? You are basically saying that Frieza has never used his true form, which is obviously false. And King Kai is not all-knowing, so that angle does not improve your argument one bit.



I'm saying he didn't use his True Form to bust Planet Vegeta. You have a distinct lack of evidence to prove he transformed 3 times above Planet Vegeta to destroy it.



> And you still don't have anything solid to back this up with other than "it's implied." The fact of the matter is that we don't know how he did it at all.



Frieza's shown using a death ball, an attack he was going to use on Namek before he got by the spirit bomb. That together with AT taking that scene straight from the Special means its quite clear how he did it.



> Which was why Vegeta had to redirect his Final Flash into space against Cell, right? And King Cold was still killed by an attack that was not a planet buster.
> 
> You really are not bringing forth anything to prove Frieza could tank a planet buster.



I've already explained how ki attacks have strange properties, we know SSJ Trunks > Frieza, yet his strongest attack only leveled a mountain against the Androids? Piccolo's all out blast against Imperfect Cell also didn't destroy the planet, the Z senshi can control the ki attacks to avoid massive AoE. Thats the only explanation seeing as anyone at Roshi's level can moon bust.

Frieza in his most supressed stated is implied to have destroyed Planet Vegeta, Piccolo states Vegeta was going to bust Namek, Goku's later much stronger attack was tanked by Frieza. Thats all evidence. 



> Argument from belief fallacy: This is when someone states that they personally believe something to be true, without providing any actual evidence.



I have provided evidence, you just claim its not enough. I think that it is.



> Thus far you have not brought forth any real evidence, merely "implications" and your personal beliefs. Piccolo's statement is not evidence.



Piccolo's statement is evidence, you can't completely discount a character statement.



> Why don't you stop and use some common sense for a second. If Vegeta?s attack would have destroyed Namek, and Frieza could tank a stronger planet buster from Goku, why kick away the one Vegeta fired at him if he would not have been damaged by it? Why not tank the thing?



You do realize Frieza powered up between the two attacks? Against Vegeta he was at his base strength in his True form, against Goku he was at 50% and some 20x stronger. 



> The overall point is that you are wrong. Frieza could not tank a planet destroying attack and come out undamaged.



I'm not wrong...and it depends on the planet buster. 

Frieza at a weakened 50% could bust Namek, Goku Kaioken times 20 is roughly equal to healthy Frieza at 50%. Goku's best attack amplifies his ki even further, by all accounts if Frieza at that level is a planet buster so is Goku. Frieza tanks Goku's best shot. 

Frieza tanked a planet buster.



TWF said:


> What the hell is "P. Vegeta"  exactly? As for the side tangent about Majin Vegeta, we know that DB characters (or at least those from Earth and magical/higher level beings) can control the output of their released energy/power.
> 
> That really isn't a compelling argument to compare a self destructive explosion to a focused blast.



Planet Vegeta.

My point was to counter the whole Trunks killed Frieza without using planet busting force. Perhaps a better example is SSJ Trunk's best attack only leveling a mountain when we have Roshi in DB accomplishing the same feat.


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## Hellspawn28 (Apr 29, 2010)

> And King Cold was still killed by an attack that was not a planet buster.



IIRC Trunks killed him with his sword, and that DB fighters can control their ki since they don't destroy the Planet in combat if I'm not mistaken?


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## Endless Mike (Apr 30, 2010)

Hellspawn28 said:


> IIRC Trunks killed him with his sword, and that DB fighters can control their ki since they don't destroy the Planet in combat if I'm not mistaken?



Stop throwing around this bullshit wanktard lie. They can't make their ki just disappear, the fact is they can get hurt by much weaker attacks than planetary level.


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## Cooler (Apr 30, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Stop throwing around this bullshit wanktard lie. They can't make their ki just disappear, the fact is they can get hurt by much weaker attacks than planetary level.



They can obivously control their ki...there are dozens of different types of ki attacks with different properties them being able to control the AoE makes sense. Roshi could bust mountains and we all know his best shot wouldn't do shit to any Saiyan Saga character. Yet we have fighters in later saga's doing attacks with similar AoE even though the attacks are obviously much stronger unless you think Roshi and SSJ Trunks have similar destructive abilities. 

There's obviously more to ki attacks then you like to believe.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 30, 2010)

Cooler said:


> They can obivously control their ki...there are dozens of different types of ki attacks with different properties them being able to control the AoE makes sense.



No it doesn't, as it blatantly violates conservation of energy.



> Roshi could bust mountains and we all know his best shot wouldn't do shit to any Saiyan Saga character. Yet we have fighters in later saga's doing attacks with similar AoE even though the attacks are obviously much stronger unless you think Roshi and SSJ Trunks have similar destructive abilities.
> 
> There's obviously more to ki attacks then you like to believe.



Obviously, as they have strange mechanics to them. I already outlined a theory earlier in this very thread that makes much more sense.


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## Cooler (Apr 30, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> No it doesn't, as it blatantly violates conservation of energy.



Thats debatable as we don't really know exactly what ki is do we? If it has mystical properties etc...then it doesn't have to behave like normal 'energy'. Human beings projecting energy from their hands and flying already defies physics so thats not really strong argument dude.



> Obviously, as they have strange mechanics to them. I already outlined a theory earlier in this very thread that makes much more sense.



You think it makes more sense. That doesn't mean it makes more sense as a theory than mine. I've read through it again and I don't think it does make sense. Purely because we've seen ki barriers before and they're always visible and well shield like. There's no evidence of any sort of passive shielding and the presence of a special barrier technique counts against you.

You were talking about the conservation of energy earlier and now you seem to have totally throw it out the window. How can a 1 kiloton attack breach a 25 gigaton shield (your example)? Your idea about 'being from a stronger ki' doesn't really make sense seeing as its the attack thats important. What you're saying is the ki changes as you get stronger and we know that every fighter has a specific ki which dosn't change unless you transform.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 30, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Thats debatable as we don't really know exactly what ki is do we? If it has mystical properties etc...then it doesn't have to behave like normal 'energy'. Human beings projecting energy from their hands and flying already defies physics so thats not really strong argument dude.



Please learn basic debating rules. It has quantifiable effects on the environment so you can't just handwave it all away, unless you want to admit that it can't be quantified at all, and thus it would be pointless to even use DB characters in debates.



> You think it makes more sense. That doesn't mean it makes more sense as a theory than mine. I've read through it again and I don't think it does make sense. Purely because we've seen ki barriers before and they're always visible and well shield like. There's no evidence of any sort of passive shielding and the presence of a special barrier technique counts against you.



Wrong. Vegeta had to lower his passive aura to let Krillin wound him on Namek so he could get a zenkai powerup. When Vegeta and Goku were fighting in the Buu saga they were exchanging tons of blows and kept coming but when Vegeta tricked Goku into lowering his guard he KO'd him with one strike. This is well - established. Furthermore, the idea that they can simply make 99.99999999999999999999999% of the power in their attacks just disappear into nowhere is not only nonsensical and not backed up by evidence anywhere in the manga, but it's explicitly contradicted by the fact that everyone makes a big deal whenever an attack has enough power to destroy a planet, even at the end of the manga. Remember Goku vs. Cell, when Goku charged up his Kamehameha and everyone was freaking out that he was aiming it at earth? If he could simply make the blast do no damage, then they would have been worried about nothing.



> You were talking about the conservation of energy earlier and now you seem to have totally throw it out the window. How can a 1 kiloton attack breach a 25 gigaton shield (your example)? Your idea about 'being from a stronger ki' doesn't really make sense seeing as its the attack thats important.



The idea is that the shield is negated so the attack doesn't have to overpower it.



> What you're saying is the ki changes as you get stronger and we know that every fighter has a specific ki which dosn't change unless you transform.



Complete red herring, the fact that individuals have their unique ki signature doesn't invalidate the idea that stronger ki can overwhelm weaker ki. For example, someone with stronger ki is often able to catch or redirect ki blasts from weaker enemies without having the blasts explode, that implies some kind of ability to overpower the ki of an opponent.


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## Cooler (Apr 30, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Please learn basic debating rules. It has quantifiable effects on the environment so you can't just handwave it all away, unless you want to admit that it can't be quantified at all, and thus it would be pointless to even use DB characters in debates.



Seeing as you don't what ki is you have no argument on the matter. You can't claim its energy as we know it when it can be made to hold its shape in balls or as disks. Evidently ki doesn't have to expand etc...as you claim. 



> Wrong. Vegeta had to lower his passive aura to let Krillin wound him on Namek so he could get a zenkai powerup. When Vegeta and Goku were fighting in the Buu saga they were exchanging tons of blows and kept coming but when Vegeta tricked Goku into lowering his guard he KO'd him with one strike. This is well - established. Furthermore, the idea that they can simply make 99.99999999999999999999999% of the power in their attacks just disappear into nowhere is not only nonsensical and not backed up by evidence anywhere in the manga, but it's explicitly contradicted by the fact that everyone makes a big deal whenever an attack has enough power to destroy a planet, even at the end of the manga. Remember Goku vs. Cell, when Goku charged up his Kamehameha and everyone was freaking out that he was aiming it at earth? If he could simply make the blast do no damage, then they would have been worried about nothing.



Being on guard and off guard doesn't require an invisible ki barrier. And Vegeta supressed his ki so Krillin could impale him, thats a completely different technique to one which defends your body.

I didn't say it was a simple case of being able to control the ki to do no damage. Obviously when you're putting almost all your energy into a blast the amount of control you have is reduced.

I could easily counter that point but saying that SSJ Trunks hitting the Androids with everything he had only destroyed a mountain, Frieza was a planet buster at 50% and its obvious that SSJ Trunks best attack > Anything Frieza could do at 50%. So why didn't Trunks do much more damage? It wasn't a case of simply firing a weak attack as it was his best shot.

There are obviously limits to the control the Z fighters have over their ki, these limits would be stretched and improved as they trained. 



> The idea is that the shield is negated so the attack doesn't have to overpower it.



And there's no evidence that such a shield truly exists or that it can be bypassed by a weak very attack from a stronger fighter. 



> Complete red herring, the fact that individuals have their unique ki signature doesn't invalidate the idea that stronger ki can overwhelm weaker ki. For example, someone with stronger ki is often able to catch or redirect ki blasts from weaker enemies without having the blasts explode, that implies some kind of ability to overpower the ki of an opponent.



A stronger ki attack which obviously overpower a weaker fighter yes, but thats not what you're saying is it? You're saying an attack from fighter 'X' that has 1 kiloton to it, it will do more than 1 kiloton of damage from fighter 'Y' becauase 'X' is stronger despite both attacks being the same. 

DBZ fighters being able to control their bodies ki (something that is painfully evident) makes more sense. 

Seeing as a weak ki attack is a weak ki attack no matter who fires it you could only be talking about the type of ki in your theory. Ki type doesn't change as your train and get stronger.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 30, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Seeing as you don't what ki is you have no argument on the matter. You can't claim its energy as we know it when it can be made to hold its shape in balls or as disks. Evidently ki doesn't have to expand etc...as you claim.



Don't be obtuse. We know it is a form of energy as it has measurable effects on the environment and it can be measured by technological devices. If you're just trying to obscure the issue by saying we have no idea what ki can do so it can do anything, you're violating the entire spirit of debate by outright refusing to even attempt analysis of a fictional medium, so you might as well not even post in the OBD at all. 



> Being on guard and off guard doesn't require an invisible ki barrier. And Vegeta supressed his ki so Krillin could impale him, thats a completely different technique to one which defends your body.



Think about this logically for a second. If I'm so tough you can punch me right in the face, stomach, etc. and I'm barely hurt, does that mean you can K.O. me just because I didn't see it coming? You can't make your body more physically durable just by being aware of an attack coming. Vegeta specifically stated that he would lower his defenses to allow Krillin to hurt him, that necessitates that he had some kind of passive ki defense in the first place. This is incredibly obvious.



> I didn't say it was a simple case of being able to control the ki to do no damage. Obviously when you're putting almost all your energy into a blast the amount of control you have is reduced.



Why?



> I could easily counter that point but saying that SSJ Trunks hitting the Androids with everything he had only destroyed a mountain, Frieza was a planet buster at 50% and its obvious that SSJ Trunks best attack > Anything Frieza could do at 50%. So why didn't Trunks do much more damage? It wasn't a case of simply firing a weak attack as it was his best shot.



Frieza never demonstrated the ability to destroy a planet outright, he used a chain reaction on Namek. Furthermore, we could either do what we do for comics and say it was PIS/a low showing, or just use my idea. Obviously the androids have some kind of energy field about them as well.



> There are obviously limits to the control the Z fighters have over their ki, these limits would be stretched and improved as they trained.



So what's your point?



> And there's no evidence that such a shield truly exists



Already given



> Or that it can be bypassed by a weak very attack from a stronger fighter.



Aside from the hundreds of times that has happened. 99% of attacks in DBZ don't do much collateral damage at all, standard punches and kicks can hurt them without even having much KE behind them. Only wankers and morons subscribe to the "every single blast is a planetbuster but it somehow only leaves a 10 foot crater" bullshit. In fact you yourself admitted previously in your post that it would take almost all of SSJ Goku's power to destroy the earth.



> A stronger ki attack which obviously overpower a weaker fighter yes, but thats not what you're saying is it? You're saying an attack from fighter 'X' that has 1 kiloton to it, it will do more than 1 kiloton of damage from fighter 'Y' becauase 'X' is stronger despite both attacks being the same.



No, what I am saying is that an attack from character Y will be deflected by the ki aura, whereas an attack of the same magnitude from character X would overcome and negate the aura, thus doing damage to the target directly.



> DBZ fighters being able to control their bodies ki (something that is painfully evident) makes more sense.



Not when you define "control" to mean "make magically disappear to nowhere".



> Seeing as a weak ki attack is a weak ki attack no matter who fires it you could only be talking about the type of ki in your theory. Ki type doesn't change as your train and get stronger.



Let's go through this again, I'll go real slow so you can keep up:

Master Roshi uses a Kamehameha which has enough power to destroy a mountain, let's say he fires it at Raditz.

Raditz's PL is higher than Master Roshi, so the Kamehameha hits his ki aura and gets blocked, leaving Raditz unharmed.

Now Goku fires a Kamehameha with the same amount of destructive power behind it. Goku's PL is higher than Raditz (say we're using Saiyan saga Goku here). Therefore the Kamehameha negates Raditz' ki barrier, and the beam hits Raditz himself, damaging him directly. It's the same amount of damage, but in the former scenario, the ki aura blocked it before it could actually hit him.


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## Cooler (Apr 30, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Don't be obtuse. We know it is a form of energy as it has measurable effects on the environment and it can be measured by technological devices. If you're just trying to obscure the issue by saying we have no idea what ki can do so it can do anything, you're violating the entire spirit of debate by outright refusing to even attempt analysis of a fictional medium, so you might as well not even post in the OBD at all.



I'm saying it doesn't behave as normal energy. Which is true. You haven't responded to the fact it can be used to form disks, balls etc...if it were energy in the purest sense of the word it wouldn't keep its shape. Goku's even shown the ability to direct his Kamehameha after its been fired.



> Think about this logically for a second. If I'm so tough you can punch me right in the face, stomach, etc. and I'm barely hurt, does that mean you can K.O. me just because I didn't see it coming? You can't make your body more physically durable just by being aware of an attack coming. Vegeta specifically stated that he would lower his defenses to allow Krillin to hurt him, that necessitates that he had some kind of passive ki defense in the first place. This is incredibly obvious.



Lower defenses, what translation is that from? Its also a very vague statement and is hardly proof of an invisible ki barrier. If you were braced and ready for a hit you'd take it better, if I sneaked up behind and got a free pass to lay a haymaker you probably wouldn't take it so well.



> Why?



If you're focusing on squeezing all your power into a single attack. Also because its harder to control large volumes of ki than it is to control smaller ones. Like I said there are limits to the amount of control they have.



> Frieza never demonstrated the ability to destroy a planet outright, he used a chain reaction on Namek. Furthermore, we could either do what we do for comics and say it was PIS/a low showing, or just use my idea. Obviously the androids have some kind of energy field about them as well.



Frieza stated he could have done it a single blow, Goku stated he could have done it in a single blow. Therefore Frieza could have busted Namek in a single blow.

If we say its PIS then most showings after Namek have to be PIS seeing as they were all mostly a lot smaller in AoE when compared to attacks like Roshi's moon busting.



> So what's your point?



My point is a theory extending the control the Z fighters already show they have over ki to include AoE is better than creating a theory with no real evidence only vague statements to back it up.



> Already given



And its been rejected. Vegeta's one vague line isn't enough. 



> Aside from the hundreds of times that has happened. 99% of attacks in DBZ don't do much collateral damage at all, standard punches and kicks can hurt them without even having much KE behind them. Only wankers and morons subscribe to the "every single blast is a planetbuster but it somehow only leaves a 10 foot crater" bullshit. In fact you yourself admitted previously in your post that it would take almost all of SSJ Goku's power to destroy the earth.



No. Goku needed almost all of his power to destroy Cell, not the Earth. Frieza could bust an Earth sized planet, Vegeta's final flash would have busted the Earth. Goku's attack was way stronger.

Frieza was kicked through multiple islands and was unfazed, he'd be one punched torn in half by later characters. Obviously despite the lack of collateral damage there is a hell of a lot of force in DBZ attacks.



> No, what I am saying is that an attack from character Y will be deflected by the ki aura, whereas an attack of the same magnitude from character X would overcome and negate the aura, thus doing damage to the target directly.



Yet there's no reason for one attack to be deflected and one to be successful if they're of the same magnitude.



> Not when you define "control" to mean "make magically disappear to nowhere".



Thats not what I'm saying. Vegeta successfuly created an extremely powerful and  intense explosion which didn't destroy the planet and it was obviously stronger than previous planet busters.



> Let's go through this again, I'll go real slow so you can keep up:
> 
> Master Roshi uses a Kamehameha which has enough power to destroy a mountain, let's say he fires it at Raditz.
> 
> ...



Let's debate without being patronizing or behaving like assholes. The whole 'I'll slow it down for you' isn't necessary and isn't productive towards a decent debate. 

No the Kamehameha is ineffective because its not even close to Raditz's power level. Not because Roshi fired it. Piccolo was a fraction of Raditz's power yet he was able to kill him with an attack, Vegeta's Final Flash on Cell is a similar example. Both fighters were far weaker yet its their attacks strength which makes the difference.

There's nothing to suggest this ki barrier (if it even exists) would let attacks from stronger fighters through when the attack itself is far bellow the PL of the defending fighter.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 30, 2010)

Cooler said:


> I'm saying it doesn't behave as normal energy. Which is true.



What do you define as "normal energy"?



> You haven't responded to the fact it can be used to form disks, balls etc...if it were energy in the purest sense of the word it wouldn't keep its shape. Goku's even shown the ability to direct his Kamehameha after its been fired.



And your point is...? It can be manipulated. So can light and electricity.



> Lower defenses, what translation is that from? Its also a very vague statement and is hardly proof of an invisible ki barrier. If you were braced and ready for a hit you'd take it better, if I sneaked up behind and got a free pass to lay a haymaker you probably wouldn't take it so well.



Not so much that you can take hundreds of punches and be hardly hurt but get KTFO by just one later.



Look, please explain how that is possible without a passive ki shield.



> If you're focusing on squeezing all your power into a single attack. Also because its harder to control large volumes of ki than it is to control smaller ones. Like I said there are limits to the amount of control they have.



You're just repeating yourself. Where is the evidence for this?



> Frieza stated he could have done it a single blow, Goku stated he could have done it in a single blow. Therefore Frieza could have busted Namek in a single blow.



Doesn't count as sufficient evidence, I'm afraid. Frieza is known to lie and bluff, and Goku had never seen a planet destroyed at that point so he wouldn't know.



> If we say its PIS then most showings after Namek have to be PIS seeing as they were all mostly a lot smaller in AoE when compared to attacks like Roshi's moon busting.



Yes, you could say that. Or you could come up with a reasonable theory to explain it, as I have done. All you've done is babbled on vaguely about "control" without actually defining what you are proposing.



> My point is a theory extending the control the Z fighters already show they have over ki to include AoE is better than creating a theory with no real evidence only vague statements to back it up.



You don't even have a theory. You just have a buzzword. You may be surprised to know this, but simply stating the word "control" over and over again doesn't mean anything. You are attempting to claim that they somehow make 99.9999999999999999999% of the energy in their attacks simply disappear into nowhere or something, which makes no sense at all. Whereas I not only have a well - defined theory, but manga evidence to back it up.



> And its been rejected. Vegeta's one vague line isn't enough.



Explain how any other interpretation of that scene is possible.

Vegeta: Hey, hurt me so I can get stronger when I heal
Krillin: But I'm not strong enough to
Vegeta: I'll lower my defenses so you can
Krillin: Ok *blasts him through the chest*

Unless you think they can somehow change the composition/density of their bodies at will, it's the only possible explanation. Furthermore we have the Vegeta/Goku fight to prove it again.



> No. Goku needed almost all of his power to destroy Cell, not the Earth. Frieza could bust an Earth sized planet, Vegeta's final flash would have busted the Earth. Goku's attack was way stronger.



Then how come it was specifically pointed out by everyone that it was dangerous because he was using enough power to destroy the earth? Implying that every other previous attack in that battle wasn't that strong.



> Frieza was kicked through multiple islands and was unfazed, he'd be one punched torn in half by later characters. Obviously despite the lack of collateral damage there is a hell of a lot of force in DBZ attacks.



So how do you reconcile that? We know durability against ki is different than durability against physical attacks already.



> Yet there's no reason for one attack to be deflected and one to be successful if they're of the same magnitude.



It's because one of them has a higher ki behind it. Like I said, perhaps it's a frequency or amplitude thing. After all, we know that both natural senses and technological devices can detect the strength of ki levels, so there must be some way to tell them apart.



> Thats not what I'm saying. Vegeta successfuly created an extremely powerful and  intense explosion which didn't destroy the planet and it was obviously stronger than previous planet busters.



No it wasn't, because, get this: *It didn't destroy the planet.* If an attack hits a planet, expends all of its energy, and doesn't destroy the planet, then, by definition, it is not a planet buster. A 2 - year - old could understand this. You are claiming that the energy somehow disappears because you have no explanation for where all of it went, if you think it was enough to destroy the planet.



> Let's debate without being patronizing or behaving like assholes. The whole 'I'll slow it down for you' isn't necessary and isn't productive towards a decent debate.



It's not my fault you're unable to grasp basic concepts. I call them as I see them.



> No the Kamehameha is ineffective because its not even close to Raditz's power level. Not because Roshi fired it. Piccolo was a fraction of Raditz's power yet he was able to kill him with an attack



That was because he was able to concentrate the power of the attack into a single point, thus making the power level of that specific attack greater than the defense Raditz was mustering at that time. If Raditz had concentrated his own power to block it, he likely could have. This supports my theory.



> Vegeta's Final Flash on Cell is a similar example. Both fighters were far weaker yet its their attacks strength which makes the difference.



Because, like I said, Vegeta hit him with everything he had after powering up a lot, Cell didn't expect it to be so powerful so he didn't concentrate on powering up his defenses.



> There's nothing to suggest this ki barrier (if it even exists)



Already proven that it does, you're just being stubborn about it.



> would let attacks from stronger fighters through when the attack itself is far bellow the PL of the defending fighter.



Yet that theory fits all of the facts and explains them perfectly.


----------



## Cooler (Apr 30, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> What do you define as "normal energy"?



The kind that can be found on our own planet and that fits into our understanding.



> And your point is...? It can be manipulated. So can light and electricity.



Poor analogy. Light can't be forced to maintain a spherical shape, you can't shoot electricity from your hands and control its direction. 



> Not so much that you can take hundreds of punches and be hardly hurt but get KTFO by just one later.



Maybe they were tired from all those other punches? I've given a perfectly reasonable explanation for why Goku could be KO'd when offguard. 



> Look, please explain how that is possible without a passive ki shield.



That's a fanslation. Therefore the wording is _*likely *_incorrect and cannot be trusted. I would have thought you'd know better than to use a poorly translated scan in an argument.




> You're just repeating yourself. Where is the evidence for this?



The evidence is that clearly a Kamehamea from Majin Buu is going to be > Vegeta's Final Flash yet it doesn't destroy the planet.



> Doesn't count as sufficient evidence, I'm afraid. Frieza is known to lie and bluff, and Goku had never seen a planet destroyed at that point so he wouldn't know.



It is sufficient. Two character statements say Frieza could have busted the planet. Its enough. The clear message of those statements was that Frieza didn't destroy the planet in one blow so he could test his strength against the SSJ.



> Yes, you could say that. Or you could come up with a reasonable theory to explain it, as I have done. All you've done is babbled on vaguely about "control" without actually defining what you are proposing.



You're theory is full of holes and has been debunked. You based it on a single incorrect translation. 

I propose that seeing as we know the Z fighters can control their ki enough to create a variety of different attacks and techniques that they can also manipulate the damage/AoE to varying degrees. 



> You don't even have a theory. You just have a buzzword. You may be surprised to know this, but simply stating the word "control" over and over again doesn't mean anything. You are attempting to claim that they somehow make 99.9999999999999999999% of the energy in their attacks simply disappear into nowhere or something, which makes no sense at all. Whereas I not only have a well - defined theory, but manga evidence to back it up.



You have no Manga evidence. And your theory is flawed. 

Ki doesn't have to behave as we know energy to behave, I've shown more than once its completley different to anything we know of. Therefore your appeal to real world science is baseless and irrelevent. 



> Explain how any other interpretation of that scene is possible.
> 
> Vegeta: Hey, hurt me so I can get stronger when I heal
> Krillin: But I'm not strong enough to
> ...



Already dealt with this quote. Its a fanslation and therefore can be struck off.



> Then how come it was specifically pointed out by everyone that it was dangerous because he was using enough power to destroy the earth? Implying that every other previous attack in that battle wasn't that strong.



The Kamehameha by power scaling was more than enough to destroy the Earth, and was stronger than all other attacks thus far. All other attacks were small AoE blasts. 



> So how do you reconcile that? *We know durability against ki is different than durability against physical attacks already.*



No we don't. We have the exact same problem with physical attacks as we do with ki attacks. In the Namek Saga Goku casually kicked Frieza through two islands, later on the striking power of the fighters is much much higher yet the collatoral damage isn't proportionatly greater. 

How do I reconcile that? No clue. I know thats not helpful but I'm sure why they're not getting knocked across countries, by all accounts they should be doing that but they don't. 



> It's because one of them has a higher ki behind it. Like I said, perhaps it's a frequency or amplitude thing. After all, we know that both natural senses and technological devices can detect the strength of ki levels, so there must be some way to tell them apart.



That implies that the ki of a fighter changes when they get stronger. Which is incorrect. The ki 'signiture' doesn't change unless you undergo a transformation. There's two components to your ki, there's the feel of it and the magnitude of it.



> No it wasn't, because, get this: *It didn't destroy the planet.* If an attack hits a planet, expends all of its energy, and doesn't destroy the planet, then, by definition, it is not a planet buster. A 2 - year - old could understand this. You are claiming that the energy somehow disappears because you have no explanation for where all of it went, if you think it was enough to destroy the planet.




So basically Vegeta used an attack far weaker than the one he used on Cell to destroy a far stronger opponent? Yeah ok cause that makes sense . What makes more sense is that he used a certain kind of technique to deliver the energy without atomizing the planet (which was the self destruct technique). I guess Super Buu's self destruct is weaker than Semi Perfect Cell's too? 

Give me a break, there's obviously some unexplainable quality to ki attacks which means they deliver planet busting amounts of damage without busting the planet.



> It's not my fault you're unable to grasp basic concepts. I call them as I see them.



I do grasp it. You're just wrong. 



> That was because he was able to concentrate the power of the attack into a single point, thus making the power level of that specific attack greater than the defense Raditz was mustering at that time. If Raditz had concentrated his own power to block it, he likely could have. This supports my theory.



No it doesn't. It shows that the PL of an attack is directly responsible for the damage it can inflict. Surely if a weak attack from a strong fighter can easily breach a weaker fighters defense than the opposite should be true also. That a strong attack from a weaker fighter can be easily blocked by a stronger one. Raditz actually stated he couldn't block Piccolo's attack so its not a case of concentrating on ones ki barrier.



> Because, like I said, Vegeta hit him with everything he had after powering up a lot, Cell didn't expect it to be so powerful so he didn't concentrate on powering up his defenses.



Your assuming that in his supressed state Cell could have blocked it, I don't think he would have been able to stop the attack even if had been prepared. Not without powering up.



> Already proven that it does, you're just being stubborn about it.



One vague statement from Vegeta (from a fanslation that isn't even accurate) equals proof to you? Double standard much.



> Yet that theory fits all of the facts and explains them perfectly.



Bit of a dreamer ain't we? It doesn't fit all the facts and its hardly perfect. There's also no evidence of an invisible active ki barrier, how do you reconcile there being an actual barrier technique?


----------



## Narcissus (Apr 30, 2010)

Cooler said:


> He was using a death ball, a technique he later tried to use to destroy Namek.


 
You're making that up. All we saw was him pointing and Bardock getting killed.




> Its implied. What's your solution? Are you saying Frieza definately didn't bust Vegeta in his weakest form.



I'm saying we don't know, so no one can make any assumptions. What we do know is that Frieza was the first character we actually see bust a planet, and it was in his final form.



> Me? Don't think so.



Except I know you're wrong.



> I'm saying he didn't use his True Form to bust Planet Vegeta. You have a distinct lack of evidence to prove he transformed 3 times above Planet Vegeta to destroy it.



You have a distinct lack of evidence as to how he did it at all.



> Frieza's shown using a death ball, an attack he was going to use on Namek before he got by the spirit bomb. That together with AT taking that scene straight from the Special means its quite clear how he did it.



No it isn't. Saying he did something in his stronger form proves that he could do it in his weaker one does not make sense. And like I said, the only thing we saw was Frieza killing Bardock. The rest of the special is still non-canon.




> I've already explained how ki attacks have strange properties, we know SSJ Trunks > Frieza, yet his strongest attack only leveled a mountain against the Androids? Piccolo's all out blast against Imperfect Cell also didn't destroy the planet, the Z senshi can control the ki attacks to avoid massive AoE. Thats the only explanation seeing as anyone at Roshi's level can moon bust.



Because several of the DBZ characters showing are inconsistent, and you're clinging onto the high-end feats. Believe it or not, not every attack they throw around are planet busters, and they can be hurt by less.

Also, look at their durability against physical attacks. DBZ characters' physical attacks do not do anything close to planet-level destruction at all, but they can still be heavily damaged from them.



> Frieza in his most supressed stated is implied to have destroyed Planet Vegeta, Piccolo states Vegeta was going to bust Namek, Goku's later much stronger attack was tanked by Frieza. Thats all evidence.



No it isn't. You are using:


A unproven implication
A fallible character statement
A>B>C logic

None of that is concrete evidence.



> I have provided evidence, you just claim its not enough. I think that it is.



And you're wrong.



> Piccolo's statement is evidence, you can't completely discount a character statement.



Again, it doesn't work that way. A character statement had to be supported by some kind of proof, because it is not proof in and of itself.



> You do realize Frieza powered up between the two attacks? Against Vegeta he was at his base strength in his True form, against Goku he was at 50% and some 20x stronger.



Too bad you have not proved your case about Vegeta or Goku's attack being planet busters.

And Frieza and his father were still killed by less than planet destroying attacks.



> I'm not wrong...and it depends on the planet buster.
> 
> Frieza at a weakened 50% could bust Namek, Goku Kaioken times 20 is roughly equal to healthy Frieza at 50%. Goku's best attack amplifies his ki even further, by all accounts if Frieza at that level is a planet buster so is Goku. Frieza tanks Goku's best shot.
> 
> Frieza tanked a planet buster.



Frieza used a chain reaction to blow up Namek at 50% of his power via a special ability. So trying to equate Goku's attack to  Frieza's doesn't work.

Therefore, you are wrong and Frieza can not tank a planet buster.



Hellspawn28 said:


> IIRC Trunks killed him with his sword, and that DB fighters can control their ki since they don't destroy the Planet in combat if I'm not mistaken?





Trunks killed Frieza with the use of his sword, not King Cold. It was a rather significant part of the fight that Cold took Trunks' sword and tried to kill him with it.

Trunks killed him by blasting a hole through his chest and then blowing him up with a second ki blast that had no where near planet busting force.


----------



## Cooler (Apr 30, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> You're making that up. All we saw was him pointing and Bardock getting killed.



His finger was clearly used to make a deathball, like the one he was going to use destroy Namek before getting nailed by the Genki Dama. If you saw Goku's in the Kamehameha position you wouldn't deny he was about to/or had used a Kamehameha.




> I'm saying we don't know, so no one can make any assumptions. What we do know is that Frieza was the first character we actually see bust a planet, and it was in his final form.



I can tell I'm not going to convince you, I think its clear that base Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta you don't. Not sure where we can from here tbh.



> Except I know you're wrong.



No you're wrong.... Lets not go back and forth like this.



> You have a distinct lack of evidence as to how he did it at all.



I have evidence. Admittedly its not as good as seeing him doing it.



> No it isn't. Saying he did something in his stronger form proves that he could do it in his weaker one does not make sense. And like I said, the only thing we saw was Frieza killing Bardock. The rest of the special is still non-canon.



I said he was using the same technique. So he used an attack he apparently reserves for busting planets to kill a low class Saiyan?



> Because several of the DBZ characters showing are inconsistent, and you're clinging onto the high-end feats. Believe it or not, not every attack they throw around are planet busters, and they can be hurt by less.



Well there is a lot of inconsistancy we at least agree on that. However its fairly obviously that Frieza a planet buster couldn't do anything to something like Imperfect Cell, someone who would be casually blown to bits by a post ROSAT Saiyan without resorting to a planet buster themselves. So yes it inconsistant but I go with the whole ki attacks are exotic and don't behave as we expect theory.



> Also, look at their durability against physical attacks. DBZ characters' physical attacks do not do anything close to planet-level destruction at all, but they can still be heavily damaged from them.



Inconsistancy again. Frieza gets knocked through islands without a scratch yet punches which don't do that from later characters don't appear to have as much force. Considering Frieza could survive the physical impact of a planet exploding beneath him in a damaged state we know DBZ characters aren't weak against physical attacks. 



> No it isn't. You are using:
> 
> 
> A unproven implication
> ...



I don't think Piccolo's statement is fallible, the implication of what Frieza did is pretty clear. 



> And you're wrong.



Ok then.



> Again, it doesn't work that way. A character statement had to be supported by some kind of proof, because it is not proof in and of itself.



I disagree, I don't think Piccolo's claim was unreasonable based on what we've seen before. I don't think we should ignore character statements.



> Too bad you have not proved your case about Vegeta or Goku's attack being planet busters.





> And Frieza and his father were still killed by less than planet destroying attacks.



And Majin Buu was torn to bits by an attack which didn't destroy the planet. Trunk's best blast only destroyed a mountain...the power of a ki attack isn't solely based on its AoE.



> Frieza used a chain reaction to blow up Namek at 50% of his power via a special ability. So trying to equate Goku's attack to  Frieza's doesn't work.



Goku and Frieza both stated that Frieza could have destroyed the planet in a single blow. Therefore Frieza at 50% = a planet buster. Goku Kaioken x 20 =~ Frieza 50%.



> Therefore, you are wrong and Frieza can not tank a planet buster.



Yeah he can. He's done it.


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## God (Apr 30, 2010)

I have to say that "We dont know if Frieza used Death Ball since he was in the position he normally would be for using Death Ball, and Bardock and his entire rebellion were killed by some massive attack, but since we didnt see it IT NEVER HAPPENEDD" is the stupidest argument I've ever heard.

What other attack is there that he has, which would annihilate an entire race? It's not any sort of stretch to say he used Death Ball, it's just stubbornness to keep saying it imho.


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## Endless Mike (May 1, 2010)

Cooler said:


> The kind that can be found on our own planet and that fits into our understanding.



So energy from the sun is not normal energy?



> Poor analogy. Light can't be forced to maintain a spherical shape, you can't shoot electricity from your hands and control its direction.



You could if you had the right equipment.



> Maybe they were tired from all those other punches? I've given a perfectly reasonable explanation for why Goku could be KO'd when offguard.



Not really, as they were still fighting at a strong level, in fact Vegeta's reason for tricking Goku like that was because he thought the fight was taking too long and he wanted to go fight Majin Buu. Seems you're not even familiar with the material you're debating.



> That's a fanslation. Therefore the wording is _*likely *_incorrect and cannot be trusted. I would have thought you'd know better than to use a poorly translated scan in an argument.



You got any evidence for this accusation? You can't just say it's a bad translation without proving you have a superior one.



> The evidence is that clearly a Kamehamea from Majin Buu is going to be > Vegeta's Final Flash yet it doesn't destroy the planet.



Which can easily be explained by my theory.



> It is sufficient. Two character statements say Frieza could have busted the planet. Its enough. The clear message of those statements was that Frieza didn't destroy the planet in one blow so he could test his strength against the SSJ.



Character statements have to be taken in context. You could have a thousand character statements saying that Naruto is FTL but they would all be bunk unless there were feats to prove it. This standard of evidence is insufficient, or else end of series YYH characters would be planetbusters too.



> You're theory is full of holes and has been debunked. You based it on a single incorrect translation.



No, I'm basing it on consistent observable evidence. We know the characters constantly emit ki unless they are suppressing it, but even if there was no proof of a ki aura (and there is), it wouldn't be necessary for the theory since it's a lot less of a leap then you're making.

In fact, I just thought of another piece of evidence for it: Krillin was planning to finish off Vegeta by stabbing him with Yajirobe's sword. Now if Vegeta had been at full strength, I think you would agree the sword would bounce off or break if he tried it, but it was a legitimate threat after he had been beaten up and used up most of his ki.



> I propose that seeing as we know the Z fighters can control their ki enough to create a variety of different attacks and techniques that they can also manipulate the damage/AoE to varying degrees.



Which is bullshit and completely nonsensical. Energy doesn't just disappear, it has to go somewhere. How do you attack with enough force to destroy a planet but only make a 10 foot crater? Explain that to me. That would require some type of reality warping which has never even been hinted to exist by the manga.



> You have no Manga evidence. And your theory is flawed.



Simply repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true.



> Ki doesn't have to behave as we know energy to behave, I've shown more than once its completley different to anything we know of. Therefore your appeal to real world science is baseless and irrelevent.



Didn't I shoot down this line of thinking just a few posts ago? You're using an appeal to ignorance fallacy. We have observed the effects of ki and can quantify it, you can't just say "well, we don't know exactly how it works so therefore it can do anything at all including shit there's no proof it could do." Hell, I could reverse this line of reasoning back onto you: We don't know exactly how ki in DBZ works so my aura theory could easily be correct.



> Already dealt with this quote. Its a fanslation and therefore can be struck off


.

No it can't, all you said was that it was inaccurate with no proof. And if he wasn't "lowing his defenses", then what the fuck do you think he was doing that would make him vulnerable to a ki blast when he wouldn't have been before?



> The Kamehameha by power scaling was more than enough to destroy the Earth, and was stronger than all other attacks thus far. All other attacks were small AoE blasts.



If they can just make 99.999999999999999999% of the energy disappear harmlessly, then why were they worried? They specifically said that it was dangerous because he put enough ki into it to destroy the earth. There is no misinterpreting this. The other attacks were not strong enough to destroy the earth, yet they still hurt the fighters. My theory explains this. Yours doesn't. 



> =No we don't. We have the exact same problem with physical attacks as we do with ki attacks. In the Namek Saga Goku casually kicked Frieza through two islands, later on the striking power of the fighters is much much higher yet the collatoral damage isn't proportionatly greater.



Yet they can be hurt by attacks that don't do nearly that much damage. A punch or kick delivers its damage via kinetic energy. KE = 1/2mv^2. They can take a lot more damaging ki attacks than physical attacks. 



> How do I reconcile that? No clue. I know thats not helpful but I'm sure why they're not getting knocked across countries, by all accounts they should be doing that but they don't.



Here's the difference - you can't explain it, I can. Those punches and kicks have their ki in them. Therefore if they have a higher PL, it creates the same disruption effect that a ki blast can.



> That implies that the ki of a fighter changes when they get stronger. Which is incorrect. The ki 'signiture' doesn't change unless you undergo a transformation. There's two components to your ki, there's the feel of it and the magnitude of it.



I never said that the very nature of their ki changes, just that higher ki can overwhelm weaker ki. Besides, using your reasoning, you can't say it doesn't work that way because we don't know how ki works so it can do anything.



> So basically Vegeta used an attack far weaker than the one he used on Cell to destroy a far stronger opponent? Yeah ok cause that makes sense What makes more sense is that he used a certain kind of technique to deliver the energy without atomizing the planet (which was the self destruct technique). I guess Super Buu's self destruct is weaker than Semi Perfect Cell's too?



That doesn't make sense because of basic logic. My explanation makes much more sense: The attack itself wasn't powerful enough to destroy the planet or do anything more than make that crater, but because it was used by Vegeta when he had such powerful ki, it cancelled out Buu's defenses and hit his body directly.



> Give me a break, there's obviously some unexplainable quality to ki attacks which means they deliver planet busting amounts of damage without busting the planet.



No, because that's nonsensical bullshit. Try explaining how this magical mechanism works. I've explained mine, but all you've done is say "well it must somehow do such and such". My explanation is superior because it's actually defined.



> I do grasp it. You're just wrong.



Says the guy who appeals to "lol I don't know" for an answer.



> No it doesn't. It shows that the PL of an attack is directly responsible for the damage it can inflict. Surely if a weak attack from a strong fighter can easily breach a weaker fighters defense than the opposite should be true also. That a strong attack from a weaker fighter can be easily blocked by a stronger one.



Not if the ki that is used for that attack is stronger than the stronger fighter's defense at the moment. IIRC Piccolo's attack registered as 1300something on the scouter, which was greater than Raditz's PL.



> Raditz actually stated he couldn't block Piccolo's attack so its not a case of concentrating on ones ki barrier.



You have a scan? Anyway it did state that the PL was over Raditz's 1200.



> Your assuming that in his supressed state Cell could have blocked it, I don't think he would have been able to stop the attack even if had been prepared. Not without powering up.



How does that contradict what I said? Cell could power up to block it, raising his ki aura to a higher PL than Vegeta's attack.



> One vague statement from Vegeta (from a fanslation that isn't even accurate) equals proof to you? Double standard much.



The entire scenario is proof. Please explain how that scene could have happened without a ki barrier.



> Bit of a dreamer ain't we? It doesn't fit all the facts and its hardly perfect. There's also no evidence of an invisible active ki barrier, how do you reconcile there being an actual barrier technique?



There is tons of evidence, you're just ignoring it. Even if there wasn't, postulating one is much more sensible than postulating the ability for ki blasts to hit a planet with planet destroying force and not destroy it (which makes no fucking sense at all).



Cubey said:


> I have to say that "We dont know if Frieza used Death Ball since he was in the position he normally would be for using Death Ball, and Bardock and his entire rebellion were killed by some massive attack, but since we didnt see it IT NEVER HAPPENEDD" is the stupidest argument I've ever heard.
> 
> What other attack is there that he has, which would annihilate an entire race? It's not any sort of stretch to say he used Death Ball, it's just stubbornness to keep saying it imho.



You do know that that attack actually never appears anywhere in the manga, right?


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (May 1, 2010)

ughhh walls of text


----------



## Endless Mike (May 1, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> ughhh walls of text



If I don't shut down wankers, no one will these days.


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## Hellspawn28 (May 1, 2010)

I'm surprise this thread is still going on.


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## God (May 1, 2010)

Well if it doesnt appear in the manga, then never mind :shrug:


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## Endless Mike (May 1, 2010)

Part 2 (Continued):



> If what you mean by 'at the moment' is their actual power level and not that ki barrier invention of yours then you'd be right. Piccolo's attack was stronger than Raditz so it killed him. Surely a weak ki would be completely negated by a strong one if the reverse is true right?



Piccolo's attack was 1300, Raditz' PL, and hence his barrier, was 1200. 1300 overcomes 1200. How is this so hard to understand?



> Not a non-fanslation one, I'd need a scanner. Do I need a scan? The fact of the matter is Raditz couldn't block it, this was shown, he had to sidestep to avoid it unlike against Goku's Kamehameha.



He had no time to try and block it as it took him by surprise. He just barely dodged it. Remember he would have had to concentrate his ki like Piccolo did if he was going to try and block it.



> No. Cell could block it by raising his PL, you're no longer differentiating between PL and ki aura...which is completely wrong. Cell having a stronger PL than the attack could block/deflect it, nothing to do with invisible barriers.



The barrier makes sense, your argument doesn't as it has no mechanism. Obviously the strength of the barrier is dependent on the PL. Your argument doesn't explain how you can block an attack of lesser power just because you're giving off more. A 100 - watt lightbulb isn't necessarily any more durable than a 50 - watt lightbulb.



> He supresses his ki. Just like how Frieza was vulnerable to weaker attacks when supressed Vegeta reducing his ki allowed Krillin to impale him.



Here you are, using buzzwords again instead of actually explaining the mechanism. If his ki being suppressed means that his defensive capabilities are weaker, then the ki must actively contribute to his defense. We already know that ki can be used to form shields and barriers, so a passive barrier makes sense. The only other explanation would be some kind of structural integrity field, which has much less evidence, but still wouldn't be incompatible with my theory as it could be negated in the same way.



> I'm not ignoring it. I'm debunking it.



You're nitpicking and denying evidence. Get out of here.


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## Narcissus (May 1, 2010)

Cooler said:


> His finger was clearly used to make a deathball, like the one he was going to use destroy Namek before getting nailed by the Genki Dama. If you saw Goku's in the Kamehameha position you wouldn't deny he was about to/or had used a Kamehameha.



You're still ignoring that there is no planet being destroyed in that scan. You're claiming something that isn't there.




> I can tell I'm not going to convince you, I think its clear that base Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta you don't. Not sure where we can from here tbh.



It doesn't matter what you think on the matter. The fact is that you don't have any supporting evidence, while what I claim is what we actually see: Frieza destroying Namek in his final form.



> No you're wrong.... Lets not go back and forth like this.



Well, considering that I am correct, I agree.



> I have evidence. *Admittedly its not as good as seeing him doing it.*



Which is my point. You are trying to argue without something concrete.



> I said he was using the same technique. So he used an attack he apparently reserves for busting planets to kill a low class Saiyan?



We see Frieza pointing and Bardock dying. And what makes you think he was going to blow up Namek at that point? It would not have made sense for him to do so.



> Well there is a lot of inconsistancy we at least agree on that. However its fairly obviously that Frieza a planet buster couldn't do anything to something like Imperfect Cell, someone who would be casually blown to bits by a post ROSAT Saiyan without resorting to a planet buster themselves. So yes it inconsistant but I go with the whole ki attacks are exotic and don't behave as we expect theory.



The problem here is that we actually see Cell revive from planet busting attacks, so we know he can do so. Frieza has no such showing at all.




> Inconsistancy again. Frieza gets knocked through islands without a scratch yet punches which don't do that from later characters don't appear to have as much force. Considering Frieza could survive the physical impact of a planet exploding beneath him in a damaged state we know DBZ characters aren't weak against physical attacks.



I didn't say anything about them being "weak against physical attacks." But regardless, less than planet-level strength has harmed DBZ characters on numerous occasions. Trying to downplay that is just silly.



> I don't think Piccolo's statement is fallible, the implication of what Frieza did is pretty clear.



Except Piccolo had never seen a planet destroyed before, so there is no real credibility to his statement. And the only thing that is clear is the fact that Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta, but we don't know how.



> Ok then.



Glad you agree.



> I disagree, I don't think Piccolo's claim was unreasonable based on what we've seen before. I don't think we should ignore character statements.



Character statements are not ignored. They are looked at in a case-by-case basis. If the statements have some form of solid proof backing them, they could be accepted. Piccolo's statement is not such a case.



> And Majin Buu was torn to bits by an attack which didn't destroy the planet. Trunk's best blast only destroyed a mountain...the power of a ki attack isn't solely based on its AoE.



And of course, you would rather use the high end feats in place of the more consistent ones.

As I said, while they can obviously destroy planets, they are not always throwing around planet busters. 



> Goku and Frieza both stated that Frieza could have destroyed the planet in a single blow. Therefore Frieza at 50% = a planet buster. Goku Kaioken x 20 =~ Frieza 50%.



"Stated" being the key word in that. So that still isn't proof of him tanking a planet buster.



> Yeah he can. He's done it.



Wrong.



Cubey said:


> I have to say that "We dont know if Frieza used Death Ball since he was in the position he normally would be for using Death Ball, and Bardock and his entire rebellion were killed by some massive attack, but since we didnt see it IT NEVER HAPPENEDD" is the stupidest argument I've ever heard.
> 
> What other attack is there that he has, which would annihilate an entire race? It's not any sort of stretch to say he used Death Ball, it's just stubbornness to keep saying it imho.



You fail to even grasp what the core of the argument is. It isn't about what attack Frieza used to destroy Vegeta, it's about whether or not he did it in his first form. It is the fact that we don't see him destroying the planet that we can?t make any claims on the matter.

We we did see was him blowing up Namek in his final form.

Oh, and you really should not be saying something about "the stupidest argument" considering you argued that Pain could kill Buu.

Take a seat Cubey.


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## Endless Mike (May 1, 2010)

I would not say it is impossible, or even likely, that Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta in his first form. I would just say it is unknown what form he did it in.


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## God (May 1, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> You fail to even grasp what the core of the argument is. It isn't about what attack Frieza used to destroy Vegeta, it's about whether or not he did it in his first form. It is the fact that we don't see him destroying the planet that we can’t make any claims on the matter.
> 
> We we did see was him blowing up Namek in his final form.



Clearly he did it in his most powerful form 

Because otherwise, SSJ Goku would be = to 1st form Freiza, meaning if he went final form he should have dominated him, which he didnt.



> Take a seat Cubey.



Lol failure at aggravating. Try again.



> Oh, and you really should not be saying something about "the stupidest argument" considering you argued that Pain could kill Buu.



Like I've told you countless times, that was at the very beginning of my posting here, and when I used to like Pein a lot. I dont even have favorite characters anymore, and alot of people (like Tranquil and 88) start off rocky. No one else really cares, and it interests me as to why you continually bring it up when no one does.


----------



## Cooler (May 1, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Except for all of it that doesn't. Your definitions are nonsensical.



How are they nonsensical? Ki clearly isn't like anything we know of. Denying that simple fact just shows your stubborn.



> We can produce and direct electric arcs, like you said.



Not in the way they manipulate ki.



> Look up. Do you see that?
> 
> That was my point whizzing right over your head.
> 
> Vegeta thought the fight was dragging on too long, so obviously Goku wasn't exhausted. He was still in good shape and ready to fight Buu before Vegeta tricked him.



It was going to take a while because they were both equally tired...as they had an equal PL and due to the nature of the fight were expending ki at a similar rate.




> Sorry, I provided the scan, which puts the burden of proof on you to counter it. Just saying it's wrong doesn't mean anything unless you can prove it.



Sorry n00b, but it doesn't work that way. You're using a fanslation. Hence it can't be trusted. You're quoting an inherrently unworthy source.

Providing a scan of faulty source isn't evidence.



> Of course it can. I've already explained how. Buu's Kamehameha has less destructive power but a more intense ki so it cancels the defenses of a target and delivers its payload directly. Sad that you can't even seem to grasp this concept no matter how many times I explain it to you.



A more intense ki? Intensity is directly related to power. A one kiloton ki attack is a one kiloton ki attack no matter how you slice it.

I do understand it, the concept is just utter BS.



> No it's not. You are simply making unsupported assertions. The standards of evidence we have here are stricter than that.



Yeah it is. And thats funny because aren't you the guy trying to pass of a fanslation as a legitemate piece of evidenc? Double standards.



> Not breach, negate. Even the most powerful forcefield is useless if you can turn it off.



No evidence of such a forcefield. The magnitude of the attack is what's important, thus there would be no negating. 



> Evidence? For durability, I mean.



Frieza was more durable at 100% than he was at 50% when he was supressed. Durability is linked to ki. Its obvious anyway, thats why Goku with a PL of 8,000 could tank attacks that would have killed him when his PL was around 400.



> Really, I thought it was because they were stronger and faster. Silly me.



Both of which are due to ki. Try to keep up.



> The tail is the weakest part of a Saiya-jin's body.



Yes but scale it up for a huge Monkey and its going to be a lot tougher.



> More evidence: Mercenary Tao was taking Goku's best shots and was fine, but after being beaten up by Goku (and thus having his ki exhausted) he was severely hurt by a grenade.



Thats not evidence of a ki shield, thats just shows how ki is linked to durability. Like how you're vulnerable when you supress your ki, you're more vulnerable when you're tired.



> More appeal to ignorance bullshit. We know they can generate and fire it out of their hands as we have seen them do it. We know that they generate it within their bodies, but we have no evidence they can void CoE like that. You have no mechanism and your theory is undefined and worthless.



Your theory is based on a shit translation and has no leg to stand on. So pot calling the kettle black?



> Keep dreaming, kid.



Whatever dude.



> This is a complete red herring as I have explained many times. It's the magnitude that I'm talking about. A higher ki can negate/bypass a lower ki.



No evidence of that. If the ki of the attack is high enough in relation to the target it will do damage. That's what's shown, non of this negating and bypassing stuff is shown.



> Of course, how does this disprove my theory? We know they can weaken their barriers, so they can increase them as well by powering up. A weaker character can use more ki by channeling it into a stronger attack to harm a stronger fighter, so his attack will have a stronger PL than the energy the stronger fighter is using currently, thus, negating his barrier.



You don't even know your own theory;

- Strong fighter ki negates weaker fighter ki.
- Therefore a weak attack from a strong fighter can easily bypass a weaker fighters stronger (in comparison to the attack) barrier.

In reverse...

- A weak barrier from strong fighter repels a strong attack from a weaker one.

This is shown to be incorrect by my examples hence your theory is debunked.



> Only if there was actual evidence that it was wrong. You're just saying it is with no evidence.



Everyone knows fanslations are inaccurate. The fact you don't only proves you are either;

A) A moron.
B) An asshole who knows he doesn't have shit but wants to carrying on being an ass.

Prove the validity of the translation. Prove its from a refuttable source.



> And how is that any different from weakening their ki aura? They use ki to defend themselves.



Because there is no ki aura...Their durability is based on their ki, you supress your ki and you weaken your bodies physical resistance to damage. 



> You don't even have a theory. You just have "lol it somehow behaves completely illogically, I don't know why, but it's fantasy so whatever!"



Coming from the bloke who's still defending a debunked theory.



> Yes it is, because energy doesn't just disappear, it has to go somewhere. Concentrate enough energy to destroy a planet into a sphere 100 meters in diameter, it will not go away until it is released somehow. Either it could take millions of years to slowly seep away by releasing its energy at a low rate, or it could blow up the planet, or it could go into space, or it could blast a hole right through the planet and come out the other side, but it can't just disappear.



Well then something else has to be going on because your invisible ki barrier theory holds no water. 



> No, that explains nothing and is nonsensical. My theory explains it perfectly.



Delusional much? Your theory has been destroyed move on. Make a new theory if you want but don't keep trying to sell a dead one.



> What are you trying to say here?



That the punches in DBZ have to be extremely strong because the fighters themselves are extremely durable and have class 100+ strength.



> It's not flawed, you have no relevant objections at all, you're just nitpicking.



ROFL. It has a half dozen relevant objections non of which you've been able to counter with any sort of reasonable answer. 



> Not if the intensity of the ki behind it can simply negate the shield. Like I said, it could be frequency or amplitude.



Intensity is directly linked to power. A ki blast can't have the energy of one kiloton and the intensity of 25 gigatons...thats as bad as saying the energy disappears into nowhere.

Ki signiture doesn't change. 



> That's why Vegeta used so much power, enough to kill himself.



Yet we know he's a planet buster...and he didn't bust the planet using everything he had.



> How does that contradict anything I've said? The shield is negated by the intensity of the attack, not the general intensity of the person who fired it. A weaker person can concentrate more power to temporarily overwhelm a stronger one. This is true in real life too. Ever heard of an adrenaline rush?



Poor analogy, adrenaline =/= ki.

Intensity is directly linked to power, covered this.



> No it hasn't, all you've done is bring up irrelevant nitpicks. "Lol that scan is wrong because I say so with no proof even though it's irrelevant to the integrity of the theory and merely supporting evidence". If you call that debunking, you have no idea what the word means.



The scan is wrong because its fanslation. You could have editted that page yourself for all I know. 



> Either show me something that makes my theory impossible, or define your theory and demonstrate that it is parsimoniously superior to mine.



I have done. Multiple times.



> No, I call people who wank wankers. Such as saying that every random attack can destroy a planet with no proof, even though it is specifically contradicted by the fact that even late in the manga, they specifically make a big deal whenever an attack has that much power.



Ok I'll just call people who think fanslations are accurate douchebags.


----------



## Cooler (May 1, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Piccolo's attack was 1300, Raditz' PL, and hence his barrier, was 1200. 1300 overcomes 1200. How is this so hard to understand?



Because in your idiotic theory a strong fighter no matter the magnitude of the attack overcomes a weaker fighers ki. Thus Raditz should have easily laughed off Piccolo's attack.



> He had no time to try and block it as it took him by surprise. He just barely dodged it. Remember he would have had to concentrate his ki like Piccolo did if he was going to try and block it.



He shouldn't have to going by your theory.

- Strong fighter ki negates weaker fighter ki.
- Therefore a weak attack from a strong fighter can easily bypass a weaker fighters stronger (in comparison to the attack) barrier.

In reverse...

*- A weak barrier from strong fighter repels a strong attack from a weaker fighter.*



> The barrier makes sense, your argument doesn't as it has no mechanism. Obviously the strength of the barrier is dependent on the PL. Your argument doesn't explain how you can block an attack of lesser power just because you're giving off more. A 100 - watt lightbulb isn't necessarily any more durable than a 50 - watt lightbulb.




The barrier doesn't exist. Light bulb analogy is poor at best, a light bulb =/= alien who can fly and shoot beams of energy.

Then you concede that any defense is based on the PL of the defender and the PL of the attack, it has nothing to do with fancy barriers.



> Here you are, using buzzwords again instead of actually explaining the mechanism. If his ki being suppressed means that his defensive capabilities are weaker, then the ki must actively contribute to his defense. We already know that ki can be used to form shields and barriers, so a passive barrier makes sense. The only other explanation would be some kind of structural integrity field, which has much less evidence, but still wouldn't be incompatible with my theory as it could be negated in the same way.



Erm...no. Ki strengthens their body, it doesn't create a barrier, thats a seperate technique.



> You're nitpicking and denying evidence. Get out of here.



You're ignoring major points and citing no credible evidence. Get out of here.




Narcissus said:


> You're still ignoring that there is no planet being destroyed in that scan. You're claiming something that isn't there.



I think the implication is enough and should be enough. 



> It doesn't matter what you think on the matter. The fact is that you don't have any supporting evidence, while what I claim is what we actually see: Frieza destroying Namek in his final form.



Its heavily implied Frieza busted P.Vegeta in his first form.



> Well, considering that I am correct, I agree.



Ok then...



> Which is my point. You are trying to argue without something concrete.



You're right, its not concrete. However it has more weight behind it then claiming Frieza can only bust planets in his Final Form.



> We see Frieza pointing and Bardock dying. And what makes you think he was going to blow up Namek at that point? It would not have made sense for him to do so.



Yeah it would of. Wiping them all at once...why would he do it any differently?



> The problem here is that we actually see Cell revive from planet busting attacks, so we know he can do so. Frieza has no such showing at all.



You mistunderstood my point, Frieza couldn't even damage Cell.



> I didn't say anything about them being "weak against physical attacks." But regardless, less than planet-level strength has harmed DBZ characters on numerous occasions. Trying to downplay that is just silly.



But we know they can tank moon busters and later incarnations planet busters.



> Except Piccolo had never seen a planet destroyed before, so there is no real credibility to his statement. And the only thing that is clear is the fact that Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta, but we don't know how.



So you need to see something first hand to be able to judge? 



> And of course, you would rather use the high end feats in place of the more consistent ones.
> 
> As I said, while they can obviously destroy planets, they are not always throwing around planet busters.



I'd rather use power scaling from events as far back as DB than ignore the feats of moon busting. Especially when they're casually replicated later.



> "Stated" being the key word in that. So that still isn't proof of him tanking a planet buster.



Its as good as. Goku was equal to a planet buster and hit Frieza with his best shot.



> Wrong.



Debatable.


----------



## Admiral Towel (May 1, 2010)

he won't beat one piece. logia can't be touch unless it's seawater or seastone. so he can use as many blast as he want but it won't work. enel have shown to survive in space. opverse can get used to live in outer space. they won't at first but they'll get used to it. but logia won't beat him either.

maybe kuma send supernova back at him. i doubt he'll die though.


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## Narcissus (May 2, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> I would not say it is impossible, or even likely, that Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta in his first form. I would just say it is unknown what form he did it in.



That was my entire point. We don't know. Besides, what we do know is that Frieza can destroy planets via a chain reaction, so even if he did that in his first form, it would not because of pure power.



Cubey said:


> Lol failure at aggravating. Try again.



Except it wasn't an attempt to "aggravate" you. I told you to take a seat because you didn't know what you were talking about at the time.



> Like I've told you countless times, that was at the very beginning of my posting here, and when I used to like Pein a lot. I dont even have favorite characters anymore, and alot of people (like Tranquil and 88) start off rocky. No one else really cares, and it interests me as to why you continually bring it up when no one does.



First of all, I've only mentioned it twice before in a joking manner, during convos. I never actually beat you down over it except for when you originally made the claim. Next, you missed the point of me stating that here. It wasn't just to throw a random insult at you or criticize you. It was to remind you to be careful with silly claims such as "stupidest argument I've ever heard" when you've done something worse and more illogical yourself. 

In other words, be careful how you phrase things or your own words might come back to bite you in the ass.



Cooler said:


> I think the implication is enough and should be enough.



Sorry to say that it isn't.



> Its heavily implied Frieza busted P.Vegeta in his first form.



And we still don't know that. Funny thing though, as I said to Endless Mike, we know he has a technique to destroy planets through a chain reaction rather than pure power. Another possibility is that he did not one-shot the planet. If either is the case, then it still wouldn't work in your favor.

This is the problem with trying to makes claims about something without enough information. You can never have a real answer because no one knows.



> You're right, its not concrete. However it has more weight behind it then claiming Frieza can only bust planets in his Final Form.



Prehaps by distablising the core and causing the chain reaction. But from what we saw, he could only bust a planet via brute force in his final form.



> Yeah it would of. Wiping them all at once...why would he do it any differently?



Uh, maybe because at the time there was no point. He was still far stronger than all of them there and could have killed them at any time he wanted. Blowing up the planet when he didn't need to would not have made sense at all.



> You mistunderstood my point, Frieza couldn't even damage Cell.



No, I understood your point. MY point was that Cell has been shown to tank planet busters, so we know Frieza's wouldn't harm him. But you can't claim the same for Frieza because he has no such showing.



> But we know they can tank moon busters and later incarnations planet busters.



In the form of Ki attacks, yes. But they always remain vulnerable to physical assault that is less than planetary.



> So you need to see something first hand to be able to judge?



In that case, yes. Piccolo would not have known accurately how much it would take to destroy a planet. Their statements afterward would be much more trustworthy, however.



> I'd rather use power scaling from events as far back as DB than ignore the feats of moon busting. Especially when they're casually replicated later.



That's all well and good, but we don't see an actual planet destroyed until Frieza does it. So you can't use power scaling to say Vegeta's attack would have destroyed Namek, or that Frieza in his first form did it.



> Its as good as. Goku was equal to a planet buster and hit Frieza with his best shot.



You're grasping at straws to try and prove your case. Considering that we don't see Frieza totally destroy Namek anyway, this argument doesn't really hold.


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## Level7N00b (May 2, 2010)

Admiral Towel said:


> he won't beat one piece. logia can't be touch unless it's seawater or seastone. so he can use as many blast as he want but it won't work. enel have shown to survive in space. opverse can get used to live in outer space. they won't at first but they'll get used to it. but logia won't beat him either.
> 
> maybe kuma send supernova back at him. i doubt he'll die though.



Yes, he will easily destroy One Piece. Frieza is faster than any of them could ever hope to be. He will never be touched. Just because Enel has the ability to survive in space does not mean that other Logias can do the same. That is not a Logia exclusive ability until multiple Logias show they can do the same.

Also, no, When has Kuma shown he can repel multi mountain range busting blasts? Never.


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Yes, he will easily destroy One Piece. Frieza is faster than any of them could ever hope to be. He will never be touched. Just because Enel has the ability to survive in space does not mean that other Logias can do the same. That is not a Logia exclusive ability until multiple Logias show they can do the same.
> 
> Also, no, When has Kuma shown he can repel multi mountain range busting blasts? Never.



wow ok.......... tell me then how fast is kizaru or enel. exactly. no one in dbz has ever hope of being light speed. and that is slower than the speed of light.

gotenk travel the world and get to buu. place in 20min. and he circle the world at least 12 times. and that not light speed. i said op verse not logia. electric ability doesn't make you immune to space. and they live in the sky where it almost out of the atmostphere. they got used to it like luffy crew.


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## Level7N00b (May 2, 2010)

Kizaru is only lightspeed when he is moving. He can go lightspeed all he wants, that's all cool. however Kizaru cannot attack when he is light, only travel. Thus it does not matter. And even if he could attack, he only has, what, multi city block destructive capacity?

So what? DBZ characters very frequently fly into the air where the atmosphere gets thin, and they have no trouble breathing, and the wind doesn't seem to bother them either.

And Frieza destroys the One Pieceverse with extreme ease. No one can even come close to hurting him, much less defeating him. Since Frieza isn't allowed island busting, he just spams mountain range busters from the sky, which no one in OP will dodge.


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Kizaru is only lightspeed when he is moving. He can go lightspeed all he wants, that's all cool. however Kizaru cannot attack when he is light, only travel. Thus it does not matter. And even if he could attack, he only has, what, multi city block destructive capacity?
> 
> So what? DBZ characters very frequently fly into the air where the atmosphere gets thin, and they have no trouble breathing, and the wind doesn't seem to bother them either.
> 
> And Frieza destroys the One Pieceverse with extreme ease. No one can even come close to hurting him, much less defeating him. Since Frieza isn't allowed island busting, he just spams mountain range busters from the sky, which no one in OP will dodge.



seriously where do you people get your information. you know manga prove better right? tell me how did he do this. he was gonna light kick. and ussop was shooting through him. explani that. and even if kizaru can attack he won't beat friezer. but we don't know for sure since dbz character only tank ki blast. which can be deflected and such. unless they shown attack like kizaru which is not based on ki. i think kizaru might be able to damage him.

and you know what they don't have to dodge. they can reform from what ever attack you throw at them.

if you read op you know that. but  guess you don't.


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Kizaru is only lightspeed when he is moving. He can go lightspeed all he wants, that's all cool. however Kizaru cannot attack when he is light, only travel. Thus it does not matter. And even if he could attack, he only has, what, multi city block destructive capacity?
> 
> So what? DBZ characters very frequently fly into the air where the atmosphere gets thin, and they have no trouble breathing, and the wind doesn't seem to bother them either.
> 
> And Frieza destroys the One Pieceverse with extreme ease. No one can even come close to hurting him, much less defeating him. Since Frieza isn't allowed island busting, he just spams mountain range busters from the sky, which no one in OP will dodge.



he's hypersonic without going light mode anyway. he doesn't have to use light speed. and no stop it. goku and the others can't breathe in space. goku only go to planet that provide oxygen.

i used to think because he's an alien he can breathe in space. but someone prove me wrong. he said goku has to breathe. when he tire and stuff he was breathing heavily. the op can let him island, continent bursting but it will still be the same. planet is kinda different.


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## Emperor Joker (May 2, 2010)

Admiral Towel said:


> he's hypersonic without going light mode anyway. he doesn't have to use light speed.



And? Freeza will still be faster than him by far anyways.


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## Level7N00b (May 2, 2010)

Lawl, Frieza's gonna get light kicked!!!

It does not matter if he does or not! Kizaru's attacks have nowhere near the power it takes to hurt Frieza, at all. What don't you understand about that? And they don't only tank ki blasts. They have been caught in the explosions of said ki blasts many times. Kizaru will not defeat Frieza, no matter what he does, and it doesn't matter how fast you are in this case since he is massively too weak to do real damage.

And isn't is usually agreed in the OBD that Logias can't reform if they are scattered a certain distance?

And question, is Kizaru constantly in his Logia form, like Crocodile? Because if he is not, then that means he can indeed be caught by surprise before he is able to turn into light.

Oh and, Freiza is easily over mach 100. So try again. Kizaru is nowhere near that, nor is any One Piece character. Your wanking hard.

EDIT: And no, Frieza can't survive in space because he's an alien. His species likely does not need atmospheric air to breathe, thus allowing to survive in space.


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Lawl, Frieza's gonna get light kicked!!!
> 
> It does not matter if he does or not! Kizaru's attacks have nowhere near the power it takes to hurt Frieza, at all. What don't you understand about that? And they don't only tank ki blasts. They have been caught in the explosions of said ki blasts many times. Kizaru will not defeat Frieza, no matter what he does, and it doesn't matter how fast you are in this case since he is massively too weak to do real damage.
> 
> ...



seriously dude. kizaru is light. and show me a scan where he use mach 100 feat. dbz character used instant transmission to fight they don't actually used speed.
dude don't you get it ki blast can be deflected while kizaru kick can't. they're different. he never tank any non ki attack.

and yes when apoo attack him suprisely. and cut him in less than 1 sec he turn into light and reform. go outside your house hit the light and see what happen. logia turn into their element. logia like aokiji. if you used island blast he can't reform. but others like kizaru and enel are different. they are not using regeneration. they reform. find the difference first then you'll know why friezer can't hurt him.

and kizaru attack is more than power. it pierce too. freizer can't deflect it because it not a ki attack.

Link removed
he still on hypersonic speed.


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## Hellspawn28 (May 2, 2010)

> logia can't be touch unless it's seawater or seastone.



Yeah I highy doubt they can surrive a Planet buster since bloodlust is on then Freeza won't need to hold back on his Death Ball attack. The only universe in this thread that could beat him is BAA, and maybe s-CRY-ed. I still can't believe this thread is past 12 pages long.


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## Level7N00b (May 2, 2010)

They have never used IT to fight. IT is used for transportation purposes only. Besides, only a few characters can do that technique anyhow, save the Yardrats who invented it. Gohan can't use IT, Piccolo can't, Vegeta can't, Trunks can't. See where I'm going. Very few characters know that technique.


Also, you seem to not understand that in the OBD, all forms of energy are equal, so ki=Kizaru's light blasts. Therefore, Freiza can deflect them, easily. And Frieza's Death Beam can easily pierce. It blasted through Vegeta's armor when even attacks such as the Spirit Bomb didn't completely destroy it.

Stop wanking One Piece.


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## Ulti (May 2, 2010)

Dante or Vergil solo


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

Hellspawn28 said:


> Yeah I highy doubt they can surrive a Planet buster since bloodlust is on then Freeza won't need to hold back on his Death Ball attack. The only universe in this thread that could beat him is BAA, and maybe s-CRY-ed. I still can't believe this thread is past 12 pages long.





Level7N00b said:


> They have never used IT to fight. IT is used for transportation purposes only. Besides, only a few characters can do that technique anyhow, save the Yardrats who invented it. Gohan can't use IT, Piccolo can't, Vegeta can't, Trunks can't. See where I'm going. Very few characters know that technique.
> 
> 
> Also, you seem to not understand that in the OBD, all forms of energy are equal, so ki=Kizaru's light blasts. Therefore, Freiza can deflect them, easily. And Frieza's Death Beam can easily pierce. It blasted through Vegeta's armor when even attacks such as the Spirit Bomb didn't completely destroy it.
> ...



dude enel can. those guys can't because we don't know if they can survive in space.and being electric doesn't help you breathe in space. which mean op character can get used to live in space. but as i said character like aokiji won't survive that attack.

and dude they fucking did. buu fight using them.  he teleport then use kamekameha. yes but not the others. buu learn it. cell learn it i think.

what the hell.you don't know nothing. ki=chakra=rejatsu. not ki=kizaru light beam. kizaru to beam come from light. it doesn't come from him. he doesn't use ki or chakra or those source of energy to use it.

because if you say that your saying he can touch light.

im not wanking. i said fact. all the ki blast will go through him. but you keep ignoring that and say he gonna beat him. you stop wanking and just accept fact.

and i said maybe it will damage frieza. it look at my post above i never said he will definitely beat frieza easily. 
so stop saying i said that when i never did. i just using theory. like maybe he can't deflect kizaru light because it not made of ki. i never said he definitely can't.


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## Level7N00b (May 2, 2010)

Big deal, one character in OP can breathe in space. You have no reason to say any other character can live in space other than Enel. Frieza has survived in space, therefore he can do so.

But you said they didn't use speed, you claimed they all used IT. You clearly either have a bad memory, or you don't know what your talking about.

You need to lurk more.

In the OBD, *all forms of energy* are equal to that all sorts of characters have a fair shot at winning. Everyone in the OBD knows about the energy equivalence rules. It is one of the most basic ones. It is a rule of the OBD, get used to it.

If Kizaru, or any other Logia, save Crocodile is not always in their Logia form, then it will not matter since they will all get blitzed anyhow. 

And you seem to be forgetting that nothing any One Piece character has will hurt Frieza. They can't even come close to it.


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Big deal, one character in OP can breathe in space. You have no reason to say any other character can live in space other than Enel. Frieza has survived in space, therefore he can do so.
> 
> But you said they didn't use speed, you claimed they all used IT. You clearly either have a bad memory, or you don't know what your talking about.
> 
> ...



wtf really. i said frieza use i never said everyone in the dbz verse use it.

and the reason is that enel is a human and live off in space. and he live on sky island which mean op character can get use to the atmostphere. luffy entire crew got used to it.

yea right for someone who move as fast as light. and he doesn't have fast as light reaction how the hell does he even know he going when he can react that fast.

it like kuro he use a soru like speed but he can use it because it too fast for him.

fucking croc will dehyrate him. i don't think he can regenerate if every single liquid in his body is absorb. enel is lighting speed which mean he has lighting reaction. and im so sure that he can dehydrate him that i'll even come as far as saying he can dehydrate superman. unless superman has healing factor. which heal them even if they're nothing left but bone. so even if they get all the liquid suck out they can still heal.

he massive hypersonic which mean he won't be blitzing so much. op high tier have hypersonic reaction. if they don't they get their ass beat by g2 luffy already.

croc come more than close to it. but i agree none other can hurt him.

so your trying to saying that kizaru light=chakra=rejatsu too.


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## Emperor Joker (May 2, 2010)

Admiral Towel said:


> seriously dude. kizaru is light. and show me a scan where he use mach 100 feat. dbz character used instant transmission to fight they don't actually used speed.
> dude don't you get it ki blast can be deflected while kizaru kick can't. they're different. he never tank any non ki attack.
> 
> and yes when apoo attack him suprisely. and cut him in less than 1 sec he turn into light and reform. go outside your house hit the light and see what happen. logia turn into their element. logia like aokiji. if you used island blast he can't reform. but others like kizaru and enel are different. they are not using regeneration. they reform. find the difference first then you'll know why friezer can't hurt him.
> ...



Kizaru is only lightspeed in travel form only, every where else he's just Hypersonic...yes both of them are Hypersonic but Freeza is higher Hypersonic than Kizaru is 

Also it should be noted that Logia's can only be hurt by Seastone or Haki is a no limits fallacy, if Freeza blows up the continent Kizaru's not going to survive that.


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> Kizaru is only lightspeed in travel form only, every where else he's just Hypersonic...yes both of them are Hypersonic but Freeza is higher Hypersonic than Kizaru is
> 
> Also it should be noted that Logia's can only be hurt by Seastone or Haki is a no limits fallacy, if Freeza blows up the continent Kizaru's not going to survive that.



kizaru have light speed reaction so there no blitzing. if he doesn't he won't know where he's going like kuro when using light speed mode.

blowing up the continent. so what? you think they ran out of air or something. and once again i repeat. they do not regenerate. they reform. regenerate if you cut them up or damage fast enough they can't regenerate. logia are the element. they reform no matter what. why don't you go look up like sandman or other elemental intangiable and see if that ki blast can kill them.

dam you should at least know logia don't regenerate. he can be hurt by ban mido, ginji, hulk, some other people that can affect element. other than frieza is NEVER GONNA TOUCH A LOGIAA WITHOUT A SEASTONE OR THROW THEM INTO THE SEA. before he even get to the sea he get dehydrated by crocodile. you should note that blowing up continent the stil ground around and a bit of sand crocodile can reform around it or with out it. same with kizaru, enel others. but aokiji can get beat. with a fire attack. which is supernova. 

so no it not no limit fallacy. for people who are not like ban mido, ginji, etc they need the seastone or drown them in the sea to beat them. they can't touch them. if you want to say that frieza can. show me a scan of him grabbing any element like water and others like solid. no you can't because he can't do it.

and yea look up iceman, sandman and other element user and see if they give a crap about some dam continent buster. you need to destroy the planet to beat iceman so he can't breathe in space. other wise continent and other attack can't hurt him.

oh and kizaru to high hypersonic too. luffy blitz blueno who was supersonic easily. and kizaru got behind him faster then luffy. who was speedblitzing blueno.


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## Emperor Joker (May 2, 2010)

Considering that Iceman can take the One Piece verse and solo it effortlessly as well as beat Freeza quite handily as well your example doesn't mean much.

and stop acting like Logia's can reform or regenerate infinitly...they can't if Freeza was to actually blow up the continent or the planet itself Kizaru would not be able to reform from something like that...nor will any other logia...Crocodile would get incinerated or glassed by the blast same as Aokiji.

So yes it is, it is indeed a no limits fallacy, he doesn't need to grab them, all he has to do is nuke them to the point that they can't reform anymore, which he is more capable of.

Stop wanking


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## Level7N00b (May 2, 2010)

Kizaru has light speed reactions?  Since when?

Please close this thread? Admiral Towel is just wanking One Piece.


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## Emperor Joker (May 2, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Kizaru has light speed reactions?  Since when?
> 
> Please close this thread? Admiral Towel is just wanking One Piece.



I just completely ignored that to be honest, as I didn't feel like adressing it...more like Hypersonic reactions at best...but yes somebody lock this, the wank is getting out of hand.


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## Level7N00b (May 2, 2010)

This guy obviously does not understand that if a Logia's body is scattered by a multi mountain range busting blast, then they are not going to reform.


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> Considering that Iceman can take the One Piece verse and solo it effortlessly as well as beat Freeza quite handily as well your example doesn't mean much.
> 
> and stop acting like Logia's can reform or regenerate infinitly...they can't if Freeza was to actually blow up the continent or the planet itself Kizaru would not be able to reform from something like that...nor will any other logia...Crocodile would get incinerated or glassed by the blast same as Aokiji.
> 
> ...





Level7N00b said:


> Kizaru has light speed reactions?  Since when?
> 
> Please close this thread? Admiral Towel is just wanking One Piece.



hmmm i guess light speed reaction might not be right.

dude there is no level of intangiable. he can throw a ki blast at sand man but it won't work. he unbeatable. spidey has to turn him into good he never beat him.

i already agree aokiji can't reform. but crocodile if you destroy the continent. the still sand around. kizaru is light he can reform from light.

all right i give you a chance to prove it. how does is he gonna blow up kizaru, enel, crocodile so much they can reform. remember crocodile has reform from other sand before. which mean kizaru can reform from other light.

well i can't prove how enel is gonna reform.

as i say unless he pull out an attack that destroy planet he never gonna kill them.


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> This guy obviously does not understand that if a Logia's body is scattered by a multi mountain range busting blast, then they are not going to reform.



fucking prove it then. i never seen such a thing. instead of saying they can't reform. just show me one fucking scan. and i'll shut the fuck up. if you can't stop saying it.

or show me one fucking element user that got hit so bad he can't reform. any element user at all. not aokiji though fire work on him as i said.

show me that guy masaki from getbacker in light mode get hit so bad he can't reform. show me sand man get hit so bad he can't reform. and getbacker character is capaple of doing that.


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## Emperor Joker (May 2, 2010)

Admiral Towel said:


> hmmm i guess light speed reaction might not be right.
> 
> dude there is no level of intangiable. he can throw a ki blast at sand man but it won't work. he unbeatable. spidey has to turn him into good he never beat him.
> 
> ...



All right look here prove that they can reform from a blast that can destroy a continent...oh right you can't because they haven't shown that kind of durability or regeneration yet...meaning they won't be fucking able to.

None of those people have survived blasts that could take out Islands, countries, continents or the fucking planet itself...Crocodile isn;t going to reform if there's nothing left of him, he's not like fucking Cain Marko.

Stop wanking the logias and learn what a freaking no-limits fallacy is...


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## Emperor Joker (May 2, 2010)

Admiral Towel said:


> fucking prove it then. i never seen such a thing. show me one fucking scan. and i'll shut the fuck up. if you can't stop saying it.



A Why would Freeza need a scan showing he can punch intangibles, when he doesn't even need to go phsyical to disperse them...once again they aren't going to reform from fucking everything.

Do you think that they can survive the fucking Shrike as well? or the fucking Hulk


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## Level7N00b (May 2, 2010)

If they haven't shown the ability to do so, or it has not even been implied that they can, then they cannot do it. It is really very simple. 

Have we any reason to believe that if Frieza blows u a continent that Kizaru can reform from an explosion that huge? No. Because he has never done so, therefore proving it cannot be done until he exhibits the ability to do something similar. 

NLF. Learn what they are.


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> A Why would Freeza need a scan showing he can punch intangibles, when he doesn't even need to go phsyical to disperse them...once again they aren't going to reform from fucking everything.
> 
> Do you think that they can survive the fucking Shrike as well? or the fucking Hulk



your an idiot. fucking HULK can affect element. so why add him. don't know who shrike is. pay attention. i said show a scan of them getting disperse. and im asking you not you asking me.

i don't think they're incinvible. dammit so anyone who frieza can't touch is invincible. how bout masaki, ginji, ban etc. are they invincible also?


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> If they haven't shown the ability to do so, or it has not even been implied that they can, then they cannot do it. It is really very simple.
> 
> Have we any reason to believe that if Frieza blows u a continent that Kizaru can reform from an explosion that huge? No. Because he has never done so, therefore proving it cannot be done until he exhibits the ability to do something similar.
> 
> NLF. Learn what they are.



no prove to me. i said show any element user. any at all. marvel and dc is more than capaple of destroying continent. show me a scan of iceman unable to reform. or sandman.

and FYI there is no level of intangiable. it all the same. which if mean if iceman can reform aokiji can too. unless their intangible element is different like if ice man turn to snow. or if iceman can reform from being turn into water.


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## Level7N00b (May 2, 2010)

What do you not understand about "NO LIMITS FALLACY"?


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## Emperor Joker (May 2, 2010)

Admiral Towel said:


> your an idiot. fucking HULK can affect element. so why add him. don't know who shrike is. pay attention. i said show a scan of them getting disperse. and im asking you not you asking me.



There is no scans of them reforming after being blasted by something that Freeza can casually dish out, meaning they fucking can't do it.

It's a no limits fallacy to say they can reform from something that huge...once again stop wanking...and no Ban Mido is not invincible since there are a numer of characters that are above him. neither is Freeza, but he is massivly above any character in One Piece

I was using the Hulk as an example, yes I know he can hit intangibles, but I was seeing if you knew that...as for The Shrike...



meet the time travelling robot engine of death, that can age you backwards, make infinite copies of itself and is massivly faster than light


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## Emperor Joker (May 2, 2010)

Admiral Towel said:


> no prove to me. i said show any element user. any at all. marvel and dc is more than capaple of destroying continent. show me a scan of iceman unable to reform. or sandman.
> 
> and FYI there is no level of intangiable. it all the same. which if mean if iceman can reform aokiji can too. unless their intangible element is different like if ice man turn to snow. or if iceman can reform from being turn into water.



What the fuck are you talking about Iceman is leaps and bound above Aokiji in everything. 

Iceman is also an energy being nowadays as well


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> What do you not understand about "NO LIMITS FALLACY"?





Emperor Joker said:


> There is no scans of them reforming after being blasted by something that Freeza can casually dish out, meaning they fucking can't do it.
> 
> It's a no limits fallacy to say they can reform from something that huge...once again stop wanking...and no Ban Mido is not invincible since there are a numer of characters that are above him. neither is Freeza, but he is massivly above any character in One Piece
> 
> ...



oh my god. i said any element user not just logia. they're not the only elemental user. I know what it is. it kinda like hyperpole.

so just show me a picture of iceman or any elemental intangiable user get hit so bad they can't reform. im not talking about OP LOGIA. 

oh i got an example. crocodile use a move that suck liquid, blood and such but when he use it on akainui to save jimbei. it didn't suck him up.


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> What the fuck are you talking about Iceman is leaps and bound above Aokiji in everything.
> 
> Iceman is also an energy being nowadays as well



dude did i ever said aokiji being better than him? quote it please. aokiji can reform like him that all i said. i never said he is equal or stronger than iceman.


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

oh sorry guys my bad.

what level is frieza nuke?

i found this on another forum

intangibility is like, say, ghost, you can walk through wall, and physical attacks phase through harmlessly
logia user can be touched or attacked, they just reform after being dispersed however.
I heard something about molecular level attack among the list of the SDK cast? This kind of attack can destroy the molecules of certain OP elements, like sand, ice, magma, oblterate (not scattering) the mass of element it come into contact with. Someone like Kizaru probably can survive though, as photon is an elementary particle, and probably doesn't belong to the list of 'destructible with molecular level attack'
The question is if the scale of said molecular attack is large enough to obliterate the entire mass of the elements making up the body of those Logia users.

frieza can't destroy kizaru. but if his nuke is on molecule level he can destroy all other logia. and if he use normal energy blast they just scatter.

and i guess enel survive too since his is like that.


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## Emperor Joker (May 2, 2010)

Why do you keep saying that all intangibles are the same, when it's not true. Kizaru, Aokiji or Crocodile  does not have the neccesary feats to tank or reform himself from the blasts like Iceman or Sandman does. 

Saying something like that is bullshit, when we go on actual feats not speculation.


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## paulatreides0 (May 2, 2010)

If he has no knowledge of Alucard, he just turns into a shadow and consumes him when Freeza accidentally walks over him.

If he does...Alucard dies.


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## Admiral Towel (May 2, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> Why do you keep saying that all intangibles are the same, when it's not true. Kizaru, Aokiji or Crocodile  does not have the neccesary feats to tank or reform himself from the blasts like Iceman or Sandman does.
> 
> Saying something like that is bullshit, when we go on actual feats not speculation.





paulatreides0 said:


> If he has no knowledge of Alucard, he just turns into a shadow and consumes him when Freeza accidentally walks over him.
> 
> If he does...Alucard dies.



look at my last post. i admit all other die except enel and kizaru. 

and his nuke is molecule level right? if not it can't kill a logia. 

and he can get kill by croc too.  unless he blast him first. croc can use sable to suck people up.

alucard at the end of the series? he won't win but he won't lose. at the end he can't die and he is omnipresence. all yea he could absorb frieza.

you know buu regenerate from that kinda attack right? logia are on molecule level.

gameplay Mechanics

molecule is greater than dust. it way smaller. if a planet blast can't kill buu. what make you think a continent blast can.

as i say if it on molecule level. it can destroy them.


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## Abigail (May 2, 2010)

Alita54 said:


> From what I remember kazuma destroyed a dimmension in the manga.



I don't remember this and I just finished re-reading all five volumes. Please post a scan or at the very least a volume and page number.

Also, this thread is fucking godawful.


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## Hellspawn28 (May 2, 2010)

I think this should be close by now, Freeza pretty much stomps this verses.


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## Level7N00b (May 2, 2010)

He didn't destroy a dimension. Kuwabara however can cut through dimensions.


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## Abigail (May 2, 2010)

I'm aware of this, thus why I never asked about Kuwabara.


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## Endless Mike (May 3, 2010)

Cooler said:


> How are they nonsensical? Ki clearly isn't like anything we know of. Denying that simple fact just shows your stubborn.



It has effects that can be quantified. Saying that a fictional power is not the same as anything in reality doesn't give you the leeway to completely ignore subjecting it to rational analysis and saying it can do anything in defiance of any of the laws of physics. Otherwise we can say that chakra from Naruto can turn the sun into a cucumber because we can't prove it can't.



> Not in the way they manipulate ki.



In the way you asked me and defined it.



> It was going to take a while because they were both equally tired...as they had an equal PL and due to the nature of the fight were expending ki at a similar rate.



Vegeta wasn't tired when he fought Buu, which was right afterwards. Stop lying.



> Sorry n00b, but it doesn't work that way. You're using a fanslation. Hence it can't be trusted. You're quoting an inherrently unworthy source.



Why? Because you say so? Provide some evidence it's not trustworthy. Also who's the noob? You joined 1 month ago and have 88 posts. I joined 4 years ago and have over 22,000 posts.



> Providing a scan of faulty source isn't evidence.



Just saying a source is faulty doesn't make it so. You can't just dismiss any evidence you don't like by saying it's unreliable.



> A more intense ki? Intensity is directly related to power. A one kiloton ki attack is a one kiloton ki attack no matter how you slice it.



Then how come characters with different intensities of ki can be detected and release energy with the same effects? When a character is just powering up they generally don't release that much more damage than a weaker character does. Buu powering up didn't have much more of an affect on the environment than Cell did. The only exception was Goku at SSJ because he shook the whole planet, but that was probably because he really wasn't experienced in controlling it.

In other words, let me put it like this:

Someone senses Frieza's ki. They think "wow that's strong". The actual amount of energy reaching them by which they detect it doesn't have any noticeable effects.

Same thing for Cell and Buu's kis, even though they are obviously stronger.



> I do understand it, the concept is just utter BS.



Only because you refuse to acknowledge it.



> Yeah it is. And thats funny because aren't you the guy trying to pass of a fanslation as a legitemate piece of evidenc? Double standards.



How is it not a legitimate piece of evidence? It is a translation of what was written in the original manga. You have no evidence that it's incorrect, unless you can provide a better translation and prove that it's more accurate.



> No evidence of such a forcefield. The magnitude of the attack is what's important, thus there would be no negating.



You're just repeating yourself now.



> Frieza was more durable at 100% than he was at 50% when he was supressed. Durability is linked to ki. Its obvious anyway, thats why Goku with a PL of 8,000 could tank attacks that would have killed him when his PL was around 400.



Or it's because of the ki barrier. What is your evidence that physical durability is actually increased? I have provided evidence that suggests a ki barrier but you have provided no evidence for your alternate interpretation that their actual durability increases.



> Both of which are due to ki. Try to keep up.



No, you said ki alone was the reason, not the physical stat boosts that it supplied.



> Yes but scale it up for a huge Monkey and its going to be a lot tougher.



Not necessarily. In fact, in nature, larger creatures are much more fragile, proportionately. That's why creatures can't be too large in nature, they would collapse under their own weight as the materials that make up their bodies would not be strong enough to support them. This is a basic principle of engineering.



> Thats not evidence of a ki shield, thats just shows how ki is linked to durability. Like how you're vulnerable when you supress your ki, you're more vulnerable when you're tired.



Being tired does not make your body itself less durable. If my body was tough enough to survive a grenade exploding in my face, it wouldn't matter if I was tired or not.



> Your theory is based on a shit translation



First of all, my theory is not contingent on that scan, as I have already explained. Second of all, it's not invalid just because you say it is.



> and has no leg to stand on.



Because you say so?



> So pot calling the kettle black?



Way to change the subject and avoid defining your theory.



> No evidence of that. If the ki of the attack is high enough in relation to the target it will do damage. That's what's shown, non of this negating and bypassing stuff is shown.



Not directly, but it's a reasonable explanation for how they can hurt each other without using attacks that destroy the planet. Certainly more reasonable than your retarded "every attack can destroy the planet but they somehow make it only affect a small area and then the energy just disappears to nowhere" nonsense.

Maybe you don't understand this, but my theory is actually generous to the power of DBZ characters. Under my theory, they can use brute force attacks capable of destroying planets, and they can resist those attacks to a point, despite the fact that they are routinely hurt by attacks that don't do anywhere near that much damage. If I wanted to use a theory that showed them to be weak, I would say that the fact that planets have only been destroyed 2 or 3 times in the manga, whereas much weaker attacks continue to be able to harm them, then their actual power is nowhere near that and every instance of planetbusting was PIS or a chain reaction of something.



> You don't even know your own theory;
> 
> - Strong fighter ki negates weaker fighter ki.
> - Therefore a weak attack from a strong fighter can easily bypass a weaker fighters stronger (in comparison to the attack) barrier.
> ...



Strawman. The negation is based on the intensity of the individual attack. If someone with a PL of 2000 uses a blast with an intensity of only 1000 against someone with a PL of 1500, it won't get through. If you look back a few pages you can see I already accounted for this in my diagrams, as the PL is specifically shown to apply to the actual ki blast.



> - A weak barrier from strong fighter repels a strong attack from a weaker one.



No. Wrong. Obviously characters can attack or defend at below their maximum PL. Such as Goku fighting Vegeta only at SSJ2 when he could have gone SSJ3.



> This is shown to be incorrect by my examples hence your theory is debunked



You mean your incorrect strawman interpretation of my theory is debunked.


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## God (May 3, 2010)

DMC for the most part would get solo'd. Dont know about Mundus/Despair Embodied/Sparda.

Despair Embodied is the king of a dimension in the demon world, and basically represents the mythological Ifrit (not the in-game power-up) or Satan. Whereas Mundus is the king of the demon world as a whole and has life-wiping/dimensional feats.

Sparda soloed all the demons of hell (including the top dogs) in his rebellion so..


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## Fang (May 3, 2010)

S-cryed has a massive speed advantage and broken abilities to crush to Freeza.


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## God Movement (May 3, 2010)

TWF said:


> S-cryed has a massive speed advantage and broken abilities to crush to Freeza.



Actually no-one in s-CRY-ed could even damage Freeza.


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## Hellspawn28 (May 3, 2010)

> Many of them have things that could hurt or kill him but they are conditional and would be too slow or require too much prep to use them. However, that is not the current subject of the debate.



Could Zekka punch hurt him seeing how he destroy a large meteor in one punch?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 3, 2010)

Cooler said:


> Only n00bs use fanslations from the internet in debates as anyone with decent DBZ manga knowledge knows they're inaccurate



when a guy who just showed uyp a few days ago says this to a dude who's been here several years..has racked up an impressive list of accomplishments and is respected both here and kmc..that person comes off like a completely arrogant..dumb ass

and it does nothing to enhance  his credibility be more polite next time 



Cooler said:


> In context its clear Frieza could have destroyed Namek in a single blow.



that's why he did it right

Your theory doesn't make sense as soon as you start saying a one kiloton ki attack can breach a 25 gigaton ki shield. 




Cooler said:


> Your bodies durability/strength is based on how much ki you have.



that' why being knocked around mountains..plateus and into the very planets their fighting on...causes them to hork up blood on occasion right?





Cooler said:


> Roshi could bust a moon,



which is a massive inconsistent amount of disregarsable material to some



Cooler said:


> I could easily counter that point but saying that SSJ Trunks hitting the Androids with everything he had only destroyed a mountain, Frieza was a planet buster at 50% and its obvious that SSJ Trunks best attack > Anything Frieza could do at 50%. So why didn't Trunks do much more damage? It wasn't a case of simply firing a weak attack as it was his best shot.



Freiza never destroyed a planet on panel...the only time he did cause a planets destruction he did so by hurling an  energy ball into its core..and causing it to fall in on itself over a period of time

do not claim a person has an ability he never demonstrated on panel


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## Darth Nihilus (May 3, 2010)

Why is this still going when the victor had been decided way before the thread had even been made to begin with?


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