# Tsunade vs EMS Madara



## joshhookway (Apr 27, 2013)

Location: Kages vs Madara
Restricitions: Madara can only use ribcage susanoo
SOM: IC, Madara is toying with Tsunade for the first 10 minutes
Distance: 40 Meeters
Knowledge: Tsunade has full, madara none


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## Kai (Apr 27, 2013)

Madara can only use ribcage Susano'o for Susano'o or overall?


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## joshhookway (Apr 27, 2013)

What is your question?


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 27, 2013)

I'm not sure what Madara has that can kill Tsunade here. _Katon: Gōka Messhitsu_ is a colossal technique, and is clearly intended to be very powerful, but can it kill Tsunade? _Byakugō_, which I'm sure Tsunade would have activated straight away, let her fly around with her abdomen lanced through with several swords at once and survive being chopped in half. Unfortunately for Madara, that Katon is actually his strongest attack, and I don't see it being able to kill her... unless she just stood there while he continuously baked her with it.

Equally, I don't think Tsunade can kill him just like that. Madara is clearly a powerful taijutsu-user as seen with his brief skirmish with the unnamed shinobi when he first arrived, and his flashback with Hashirama as children. Not only that, but he has the Sharingan, so striking him won't exactly be easy either. It's going to take a very well placed punch which exploits Madara's arrogance to end him. With no knowledge, it's perfectly possible Madara might just let her hit him.

Though, to be fair on Madara, he could possibly win this if he plays his cards right. If he absorbs the power of one of Tsunade's punches with his gunbai, he can rebound it back with _Uchihagaeshi_ to deal out some hefty damage. It'd still take a while, but it's a better way to deal out damage than his Katon. At least, until Tsunade figures out how to move about it, given that she has full knowledge on him. Another way to win would be to paralyze her with genjutsu and then decapitate her or something, but considering the fact Tsunade knows of this and can fuse Katsuyu to herself, I don't see this working either.

Overall, I'm not sure. Feats-only, it'd be a difficult fight but I'd be inclined to go with Tsunade here. But if we take into account literary and author intent, it's clear Madara, even with all these restrictions, is on a different level.


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## Joakim3 (Apr 27, 2013)

Tsunade only shot is if Madara lets her make contact (i.e he arrogantly attempts to block a full power shot)

If he actually uses his Gumbai or decides to opts for _genjustu_ to get a clear shot, then the match ends with hardly little effort on his part


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 27, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm not sure what Madara has that can kill Tsunade here. _Katon: Gōka Messhitsu_ is a colossal technique, and is clearly intended to be very powerful, but can it kill Tsunade? _Byakugō_, which I'm sure Tsunade would have activated straight away, let her fly around with her abdomen lanced through with several swords at once and survive being chopped in half. Unfortunately for Madara, that Katon is actually his strongest attack, and I don't see it being able to kill her... unless she just stood there while he continuously baked her with it.
> 
> Equally, I don't think Tsunade can kill him just like that. Madara is clearly a powerful taijutsu-user as seen with his brief skirmish with the unnamed shinobi when he first arrived, and his flashback with Hashirama as children. Not only that, but he has the Sharingan, so striking him won't exactly be easy either. It's going to take a very well placed punch which exploits Madara's arrogance to end him. With no knowledge, it's perfectly possible Madara might just let her hit him.
> 
> ...



This. 

 He simply hasn't shown anything that can put Tsunade down while Tsunade has.


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## KyuubiFan (Apr 27, 2013)

Ehhh... what exactly is stopping Madara from burning Tsunade to ashes? Byakogo is a wonderful technique, it allowed her to survive numerous fatal wounds, but either one of Madara's fire techs can drain this ability really fast - it won't be about fixing a few organs but her whole body at once, again and again.

Madara has his gunbai which survived the assault of a mini Bijuudama without a scratch. She certainly won't break that one. Sure she can punch the ground to destabilize him for a second, but with his speed it's debatable at best. With a living body he won't be careless and with his unparalelled insight there's no way she can hit him. Plus she has to be careful with genjutsus as well.


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## Bonly (Apr 27, 2013)

Madara wins. All she could do to his Susanoo was crack it and it flying a few meters back without really hurting Madara himself. As long as Madara has his ribcage Susanoo, he's good. Add in Genjutsu to help in CQC along with the Sharingan, Susanoo, Katon's, and Gunbai+ Uchihagaeshi is looking good to counter Tsunade. Its just going to take a bit of time for Madara to win due to her Byakugo.


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## TraderJoe (Apr 27, 2013)

I don't think Tsunde could kill Madara before 10 minutes. After he stops toying with her, I think he takes this with Genjutsu.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Apr 27, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm not sure what Madara has that can kill Tsunade here. _Katon: Gōka Messhitsu_ is a colossal technique, and is clearly intended to be very powerful, but can it kill Tsunade? _Byakugō_, which I'm sure Tsunade would have activated straight away, let her fly around with her abdomen lanced through with several swords at once and survive being chopped in half. Unfortunately for Madara, that Katon is actually his strongest attack, and I don't see it being able to kill her... unless she just stood there while he continuously baked her with it.
> 
> Equally, I don't think Tsunade can kill him just like that. Madara is clearly a powerful taijutsu-user as seen with his brief skirmish with the unnamed shinobi when he first arrived, and his flashback with Hashirama as children. Not only that, but he has the Sharingan, so striking him won't exactly be easy either. It's going to take a very well placed punch which exploits Madara's arrogance to end him. With no knowledge, it's perfectly possible Madara might just let her hit him.
> 
> ...



Tsunade can't continuously heal from Byakugo, it's not unlimited.

Meanwhile Madara with his monstrous stamina can easily keep up ribcage Susanoo against Tsunade long enough.

Not to mention his genjutsu one-shot Raikage, it'll one-shot Tsunade.

Madara wins.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 28, 2013)

Regarding _genjutsu_, Tsunade was able to land hits on Madara without looking into his eyes [1] [2] And while he does appear skilled in taijutsu, it was something he used a lot less than ninjutsu or genjutsu. He merely blocked any attacks from Tsunade or Ei, rather than trying to counter them with his own taijutsu, as such, I'm not 100% sure if he would be able to take Tsunade in an actual taijutsu battle.

She can pound through ribcage Susano'o, or dodge or tank his katons. What ultimately put Madara on the same level as Hashirama was his Perfect Susano'o and the Kyuubi, neither of which he has in this match. The Kage even considered themselves capable of defeating him until he busted out PS. 

I think Tsunade has a shot at winning, but this is only in terms of feats. Madara probably has other sharingan abilities we haven't seen yet, and I'm certain he could defeat her depending on what they were.​​


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## Santoryu (Apr 28, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> *Overall, I'm not sure. Feats-only, it'd be a difficult fight but I'd be inclined to go with Tsunade here.* But if we take into account literary and author intent, it's clear Madara, even with all these restrictions, is on a different level.



I highly disagree; Madara has showcased abilities which would allow him take this match handedly. There is a huge difference between toying with* five* Kages and single one, albeit he's restricted here, but his genjutsu is potent enough to knock out the Raikage, his EMS allows him to react to raikage's max speed, his Katon is probably the greatest in the series; Madara is a character who has mastered all forms of the ninja-arts, and no, even if we stick to "feats only" Tsunade would get sliced into half. Madara is a arrogant, cocky, and pretentious shinobi, but he's not a retard, he's well aware that he doesn't possess a edo-tensei body this time, and all he has to do is dance around  Tsunade for ten minutes? It's Tsunade who's going to be on the back foot for the most part, and after he's had his "fun" it's game over. Katsuyu? Madara can use it against her via his potent Sharingan techniques; he's shown the necessary aptitude to control Katsuyu for sure.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 28, 2013)

Madara wins, IMO. Quick Genjutsu, then kill her. Katsuyu is controlled with the EMS, and Tsunade won't land any hits on Madara.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 28, 2013)

I almost forgot.


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## Jad (Apr 28, 2013)

If his Katon landed on Tsunade, yeah, your kidding yourself to the nth degree if you think her Mitotic Regeneration can bring her back to life.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 28, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> I highly disagree; Madara has showcased abilities which would allow him take this match handedly. There is a huge difference between toying with* five* Kages and single one, albeit he's restricted here, but his *genjutsu is potent enough to knock out the Raikage*,



What guarantee is there that he could even catch her in an eye genjutsu? She was landing hits on him and his clones without being caught, the only reason Ei was caught was because he let his guard down.



> his Katon is probably the greatest in the series;



Tsunade can dodge or tank those, his katons aren't a huge threat. 



> Madara is a character who has mastered all forms of the ninja-arts, and no, even if we stick to "feats only" Tsunade would get sliced into half.



Tsunade was sliced in half off-panel. For all we know he could have used mokuton or a bigger Susano'o to accomplish that. Given what feats he's restricted to, she won't get sliced in half. 



> Madara is a arrogant, cocky, and pretentious shinobi, but he's not a retard, he's well aware that he doesn't possess a edo-tensei body this time,



I disagree. When fighting against a young Onoki he didn't even use to close to his full strength, and whenever an old Onoki asked why this was the case, Madara replied saying that " an adult should never fight seriously against a child ". Even against Hashirama, his oldest rival and an incredibly powerful shinobi, he _underestimated him_ at the very last moment. 

Furthermore, Madara has absolutely no knowledge. He won't know to watch out for her super strength - knowledge is key to fighting Tsunade. His ignorance and arrogance will be his disadvantage.



> and all he has to do is dance around  Tsunade for ten minutes?



Dance around? I don't think so. He may have been able to move around at high speed, but the only people he was blitzing were fodders. Its pretty evident that whenever he came to face the Gokage or Naruto, he didn't even bother using Kenjutsu. Madara's movement speed is not such that he could blitz her, especially not since she landed a hit on him _[albeit whenever his sharingan was deactivated]_.



> It's Tsunade who's going to be on the back foot for the most part, and after he's had his "fun" it's game over. Katsuyu? Madara can use it against her via his potent Sharingan techniques; he's shown the necessary aptitude to control Katsuyu for sure.



Can Madara even control Katsuyu? She doesn't have eyes like other animals, and if she divided into thousands of clones, would Madara still have her under his control? Even if he did, Tsunade could easily use Kai and release from it. No biggie.​​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 28, 2013)

> I think Tsunade has a shot at winning, *but this is only in terms of feats.*



EMS Madara is clearly tiers above Tsunade.  At best her Byako allows her to last the ten minutes, and then he kills her.  I can only think that maybe her play dead for an opening trick might work (maybe if she doesn't shout UWAAOO this time) but Madara dealt with that in canon so even that is highly dubious.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 28, 2013)

I don't see how he could put her down. Once her Byakugou runs out, sure. But depending on how much she has stored that could take a while, and its not like she'll be wasting chakra on protecting other people, so she can use it more tactfully in this match-up.​​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 28, 2013)

Madara has perfect Susano and fought god tier Hashirama for 24 hours.

Even if her Byako lasts 20 hours he can go that long and Tsunade is not going to be giving him Hashirama levels of difficulty.


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## LostSelf (Apr 28, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Regarding _genjutsu_, Tsunade was able to land hits on Madara without looking into his eyes [1] [2] And while he does appear skilled in taijutsu, it was something he used a lot less than ninjutsu or genjutsu. He merely blocked any attacks from Tsunade or Ei, rather than trying to counter them with his own taijutsu, as such, I'm not 100% sure if he would be able to take Tsunade in an actual taijutsu battle.
> 
> She can pound through ribcage Susano'o, or dodge or tank his katons. What ultimately put Madara on the same level as Hashirama was his Perfect Susano'o and the Kyuubi, neither of which he has in this match. The Kage even considered themselves capable of defeating him until he busted out PS.
> 
> I think Tsunade has a shot at winning, but this is only in terms of feats. Madara probably has other sharingan abilities we haven't seen yet, and I'm certain he could defeat her depending on what they were.​​



But we should take in consideration that engaging in taijutsu was not the wisest choice considering he was taking on 5 Kages at once.

The same can be said for the kages being able to win before he used PS. They were five.

I kind of agree with the other things. And Katon has done nothing good so far in the manga save Amaterasu (And this has its fail record as well).


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## ueharakk (Apr 28, 2013)

I'd say tsunade has a slim chance of winning.

Madara is faster than her and has the sharingan which allows people like Sasuke to dodge much faster opponents in CQC (V1 Ei).  

His ribcage susanoo can take at least 2 solid hits from her before (more likely three) before being broken, and he could always repair the damage if Tsunade takes too long to land consecutive hits.  

His giant katon isn't as damaging as everyone is making it out to be.  Sure it has a massive AoE, however, against a singular opponent, it doesn't seem to be massively more damaging than lets say one of Sasuke's or Itachi's katons since its damage is spread out over its gigantic AoE and the V1 cloaks were able to block the attack without much difficulty.  He'd be better off firing the 5 shape manipulated flames at her since they seem to pack a bigger punch compared to their AoE.

So it's going to be a long battle anyway you look at it, however I see madara coming out on top in the end.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 28, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Madara has perfect Susano and fought god tier Hashirama for 24 hours.
> 
> Even if her Byako lasts 20 hours he can go that long and Tsunade is not going to be giving him Hashirama levels of difficulty.



Perfect Susano'o is restricted. As is the Kyuubi. And while keeping these up for a large portion of their 24 hour [or something close to it] fight does prove how great his stamina was, it was only because of these techniques that he was able to fight Hashirama for so long. He isn't on the same level as Hashirama without them.



TheIronMan said:


> But we should take in consideration that engaging in taijutsu was not the wisest choice considering he was taking on 5 Kages at once.



This is true, but Madara claimed to not be trying, and yet he could easily make 25+ mokuton clones to combat the five Kages with pure taijutsu. However, he used ninjutsu instead, and even when he did create clones, they too used sharingan ninjutsu.



> The same can be said for the kages being able to win before he used PS. They were five.



Madara also had mokuton, unlimited chakra and regeneration though. It wasn't EMS Madara they were fighting. _Five_ Kage wouldn't have been required up until that point if Madara didn't possess any of those extra hax techniques Kabuto gave him.



> I kind of agree with the other things. And Katon has done nothing good so far in the manga save Amaterasu (And this has its fail record as well).



Indeed.​​


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## blk (Apr 28, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Regarding _genjutsu_, Tsunade was able to land hits on Madara without looking into his eyes [1] [2] And while he does appear skilled in taijutsu, it was something he used a lot less than ninjutsu or genjutsu. He merely blocked any attacks from Tsunade or Ei, rather than trying to counter them with his own taijutsu, as such, I'm not 100% sure if he would be able to take Tsunade in an actual taijutsu battle.
> 
> She can pound through ribcage Susano'o, or dodge or tank his katons. What ultimately put Madara on the same level as Hashirama was his Perfect Susano'o and the Kyuubi, neither of which he has in this match. The Kage even considered themselves capable of defeating him until he busted out PS.
> 
> I think Tsunade has a shot at winning, but this is only in terms of feats. Madara probably has other sharingan abilities we haven't seen yet, and I'm certain he could defeat her depending on what they were.​​



1) Tsunade can only scratch ribcage Susano'o with her punches [1].
This kind of Susano'o has shown the ability to utilize Yasaka Magatama [2] and a sword [3], which means that Tsunade will have an extremely hard time at CQC.
On top of that, Madara can reform Susano'o as he wishes; it will be almost impossible for Tsunade to break through it and kill Madara.

2) There is no way that Tsunade will dodge Madara's humongous Katons [4 ; 5]. Note how small Susano'o is compared to the Katon.
That she will survive to them is also doubtfull: a similar Katon will completely burn her skin causing it and her organs to go in necrosis, melting her eyes and probably destroying her brain.

The only possibility that Tsunade has, is to get a clear hit on Madara while he is still not aware of her strength.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 28, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> But we should take in consideration that engaging in taijutsu was not the wisest choice considering he was taking on 5 Kages at once.
> 
> The same can be said for the kages being able to win before he used PS. They were five.



I'm pretty sure that if Madara had felt like going serious, the Kages would have never gotten to the point where they would have pushed him to use Perfect Susano'o. This is fairly obvious from the fact that he was very relaxed throughout the entire fight, and spent more time playing about with his new jutsu than actually trying to kill them.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 28, 2013)

> Perfect Susano'o is restricted. As is the Kyuubi. And while keeping these up for a large portion of their 24 hour [or something close to it] fight does prove how great his stamina was, it was only because of these techniques that he was able to fight Hashirama for so long. He isn't on the same level as Hashirama without them.



My point was that he can even manifest such a thing.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 28, 2013)

blk said:


> 1) Tsunade can only scratch ribcage Susano'o with her punches [1].
> This kind of Susano'o has shown the ability to utilize Yasaka Magatama [2] and a sword [3], which means that CQC will be almost impossible for Tsunade.
> On top of that, Madara can reform Susano'o as he wishes; it will be almost impossible for Tsunade to break through it and kill Madara.



She can dent it with one hit, and smash it with another. At most she'll need 3 hits since Ei did help her out, but she could always just put more power into her strikes? She has shown the strength capacity to maneuver Gamabunta's sword after all, so she may have potential for stronger hits. As for getting close to Madara, she managed to do it several times, and the only reason he managed to hit her with his sword and Yasaka Magatama was because he caught her off guard via a mokuton clone - which he doesn't have here. Granted he can reform his Susano'o once its destroyed, but she will have ample time to land a hit on him once he gets _thrown into the ground_.



> 2) There is no way that Tsunade will dodge Madara's humongous Katons [4 ; 5]. Note how small Susano'o is compared to the Katon.
> That she will survive to them is also doubtfull: a similar Katon will completely burn her skin causing her organs to go in necrosis, melting her eyes and probably destroying her brain.



She can't dodge larger katons, but ones such as _these_ are pretty easy for someone of her caliber to avoid. Her body going into necrosis is a load of crap though, she regenerated from more concentrated fire blasts just fine [1] Her arms weren't melted off or burned off or whatever other acronym you want to use, so her brain and eyes shouldn't be either.



> The only possibility that Tsunade has, is to get a clear hit on Madara while he is still not aware of her strength.



That will be her biggest advantage, but she's not defenseless even after he works out she has super strength.​​


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## Jad (Apr 28, 2013)

How is she going to get consecutive hits in on his Sasuno when her first hit sends him flying backwards, which he than readily counters?

How did she manage to get close to Madara several times?

1. First time pretty much let her come at him, he didn't even move when he saw her jumping at him, considering he can react to Ei's punch with a block.

2. She was able to nail him with a kick via team work the second time.

3. She punched a decoy Mokuton clone that got enveloped by Gaara's sand which he tricked them. Not the real Madara.

She DID hit him with a Sasunoo sword though, that was legitimate of her own doing, although she was playing possum it might work again here, Won't be successful though because like canon. But not several times within her own doing.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 28, 2013)

Jad said:


> How is she going to get consecutive hits in on his Sasuno when her first hit sends him flying backwards, which he than readily counters?



He'll probably counter with a katon or Yasaka Magatama [his only ranged techniques] neither of which give her difficulties.



> 1. First time pretty much let her come at him, he didn't even move when he saw her jumping at him, considering he can react to Ei's punch with a block.



Susano'o aren't that fast though, its possible he couldn't move his sword in time. Even if he was just letting her approach him to see what she could do, there's every chance he's going to do that again.



> 2. She was able to nail him with a kick via team work the second time.



He launched a katon at her after she knocked him into the air, without team-mates she could just tank it and pretend to be dead, and then shunshin at him with a surprise attack.



> 3. She punched a decoy Mokuton clone that got enveloped by Gaara's sand which he tricked them. Not the real Madara.



Nope, she hit the real Madara. If it was a mokuton clone it would have been reduced into wood after being destroyed [1] [2] Madara was made of ash after Tsunade blew him open, so he evidently used the mokuton clone after Gaara bound him in sand.​​


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## blk (Apr 28, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> She can dent it with one hit, and smash it with another. At most she'll need 3 hits since Ei did help her out, but she could always just put more power into her strikes? She has shown the strength capacity to maneuver Gamabunta's sword after all, so she may have potential for stronger hits. As for getting close to Madara, she managed to do it several times, and the only reason he managed to hit her with his sword and Yasaka Magatama was because he caught her off guard via a mokuton clone - which he doesn't have here. Granted he can reform his Susano'o once its destroyed, but she will have ample time to land a hit on him once he gets _thrown into the ground_.



Tsunade got close to Madara because he wasn't trying to avoid her.
The Susano'o arms (which have a sword) work as an extension of Madara, i don't see how can Tsunade bypass them.

And no, the Magatama hit Tsunade because she was open to a counter-attack, which is something that will happen if she manages to reach and punch Susano'o.

Infact, this is the point: when you start an attack, you are also open to a counter-attack.
If Tsunade hit Susano'o, Madara can exploit the opening and send her away with a Magatama, or a Katon, or the Susano'o arm.

In other words, all her efforts to close the distance will be rendered useless.

Lastly, Madara can reform Susano'o immediatly, there is no ample time to land any hit on him.



> She can't dodge larger katons, but ones such as _these_ are pretty easy for someone of her caliber to avoid. Her body going into necrosis is a load of crap though, she regenerated from more concentrated fire blasts just fine [1] Her arms weren't melted off or burned off or whatever other acronym you want to use, so her brain and eyes shouldn't be either.



The burning damage are dependant on three things: duration of exposure, involved surface and the type of organic tissue.
When she repelled those fire balls, the contact lasted for a _miniscule amount of time_, and only _a part_ of her arms received most of the heat.
Despite that, you can clearly see in the scan that those body parts were going black (necrosis) and that she felt some pain, before that the regeneration took place.

To put some perspective, if the affected body surface area is roughly 15% there are serious complications (like respiratory ones) that can easily be fatal if not treated (and an arm is considered as 9%).

Now, Madara's giant Katons, that she can't avoid, will pass through her affecting _her whole body for several seconds_.
_Every single cell of her body will die_ while receiving such heat for that much time, and the pain that she will felt will be unfathomable.

Also, body parts like eyes (which yes, will melt immediatly at contact with the Katon), the brain, etc.., are far less durable than arms and such.

I think that you are greatly underestimated how deadly can be the fire.


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## Jad (Apr 28, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> He'll probably counter with a katon or Yasaka Magatama [his only ranged techniques] neither of which give her difficulties.
> ​




No, pretty sure Katon and Yaska Magatama WOULD give her difficulties. The latter would keep her on fire, the former would knock her back on the ground to heal her injuries from. Which proves she can't get consecutive hits on Sasunoo to bust it open to hurt the REAL Madara before he reacts.



> Susano'o aren't that fast though, its possible he couldn't move his sword in time. Even if he was just letting her approach him to see what she could do, there's every chance he's going to do that again.



Sure he will do that again, I can see that happen. Perhaps.



> He launched a katon at her after she knocked him into the air, without team-mates she could just tank it and pretend to be dead, and then shunshin at him with a surprise attack.



She'd be on fire...How is she getting rid of the flames?




> Nope, she hit the real Madara. If it was a mokuton clone it would have been reduced into wood after being destroyed [1] [2] Madara was made of ash after Tsunade blew him open, so he evidently used the mokuton clone after Gaara bound him in sand.


​
No, that was a Mokuton clone. You can CLEARLY see it in the air after she punched the clone Madara than being sealed. How was he able to pull a reversal infront of 5 Kages without anyone noticing while he was in the air floating? Look at the Hashirama and Madara example, AFTER the strike Madara delivered, did it automatically turn into a Mokuton clone? [1][2] No it didn't. It's clear to me that Hashirama can show if his using a clone or not. Same with Madara considering they couldn't tell the difference by the time it got sealed up quickly. Most likely it turned into it's Mokuton figure after it was hidden up by all that sand.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2013)

For Tsunade's melee-nukes vs. Madara's ribcage Susano'o: I think she'll be able to bust it open rather quickly if she uses Tsutenkyaku or something instead of a forward punch or kick.

Some of the force of her first punch was lost on it when she cracked it and sent it flying through the air, like a giant push. The cracks disappeared before she kicked it, but her kick busted it open in one shot.

So what's the difference between those two strikes? On the second strike, Onoki and Ay were serving as a "brace" for Susano'o- it couldn't fly anywhere, so the force Tsunade was able to exert on it was maximized.

If she uses _Tsutenkyaku_, which is said to concentrate all of her strength into her heel by the databook (a bit stronger than her standard strikes?), Susano'o will be braced against _the ground_ in place of the two Kages, which may very well result in it being busted open in one strike again.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2013)

Jad said:


> No, that was a Mokuton clone. You can CLEARLY see it in the air after she punched the clone Madara than being sealed. How was he able to pull a reversal infront of 5 Kages without anyone noticing while he was in the air floating? Look at the Hashirama and Madara example, AFTER the strike Madara delivered, did it automatically turn into a Mokuton clone? [1][2] No it didn't. It's clear to me that Hashirama can show if his using a clone or not. Same with Madara considering they couldn't tell the difference by the time it got sealed up quickly. Most likely it turned into it's Mokuton figure after it was hidden up by all that sand.



The 5 of them seem to have been looking at him the whole time. . .even before he was about to be sealed.

This is still ignoring that the Madara that was surrounded by sand had _regenerated_ some of his torso from Tsunade's strike. . .

2

2


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## Jad (Apr 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The 5 of them seem to have been looking at him the whole time. . .even before he was about to be sealed.
> 
> This is still ignoring that the Madara that was surrounded by sand had _regenerated_ some of his torso from Tsunade's strike. . .
> 
> ...



I don't know what the word 'clone' means to you, but from where I am, they are copies of the original. If Madara is an Edo, his clones are going to be Edo also. Which means, Edo regeneration too. You can CLEARLY see that the Madara Tsunade hit was still in the air, and it was being sealed up. Which left Real Madara to come up out of the ground and stab Tsunade in the gut. Do you know who else used this technique?

That's right, HASHIRAMA! [1]. Madara even states "How did you get my back?", want to know how? He used whatever the hell Madara used to get stab Tsunade. The way Madara got Tsunade is suppose to be a play off of how Madara was hit by Hashirama. Which involved clone Hashirama to be the decoy, just like the Madara-Tsunade scenario.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2013)

Jad said:


> I don't know what the word 'clone' means to you, but from where I am, they are copies of the original. If Madara is an Edo, his clones are going to be Edo also. Which means, Edo regeneration too. You can CLEARLY see that the Madara Tsunade hit was still in the air, and it was being sealed up. Which left Real Madara to come up out of the ground and stab Tsunade in the gut. Do you know who else used this technique?



The 25 Susano'o clones would have reformed if Madara's clones had Edo Regeneration as well. The clones are just wood constructs like the trees and branches Madara erupts (that don't regenerate), the only difference is that they're used as puppets that have their own chakra.



> That's right, HASHIRAMA! [1]. Madara even states "How did you get my back?", want to know how? He used whatever the hell Madara used to get stab Tsunade. The way Madara got Tsunade is suppose to be a play off of how Madara was hit by Hashirama. Which involved clone Hashirama to be the decoy, just like the Madara-Tsunade scenario.



I don't see how Madara hitting a clone that didn't regenerate against a regenerator rules out Tsunade hitting the real Madara before he switched. It would still be a play off of it had Madara switched with the clone after being hit. Hashirama was more successful with the execution of his clones than Madara, seeing as Madara was defeated when Hashirama used it but not Tsunade. If anything, Kishi is just continuing on saying "Hashirama > Madara".


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## Jad (Apr 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The 25 Susano'o clones would have reformed if Madara's clones had Edo Regeneration as well. The clones are just wood constructs like the trees and branches Madara erupts (that don't regenerate), the only difference is that they're used as puppets that have their own chakra.



They were stuck in Jinton, how were they suppose to regenerate? Plus what use would he have with clones when he activated Perfect Sasuno the very next second. The difference between Mokuton Branches and Mokuton Clones is......the clone part.



> I don't see how Madara hitting a clone that didn't regenerate against a regenerator rules out Tsunade hitting the real Madara before he switched. It would still be a play off of it had Madara switched with the clone after being hit. Hashirama was more successful with the execution of his clones than Madara, seeing as Madara was defeated when Hashirama used it but not Tsunade. If anything, Kishi is just continuing on saying "Hashirama > Madara".



How in the world did he perform a switcharoo with a Mokuton clone while in mid-air and in front of the Kages eyes? Dude your not making any sense. He used a clone while in the seal which prevents any ninjutsu or movement. It doesn't make sense....


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## αce (Apr 28, 2013)

The notion that Tsunade can break Susano-o isn't controversial given the restrictions but the entire debate seems rather redundant given the fact that Madara does _not_ even need to utilize Susano-o to win this exchange.

Tsunade's initial disadvantage begins at the start of the match with the distance. Tsunade has to utilize CQC to even become a threat to Madara. He was able to take note of her speed and strength and set up a counter, to which she had no answer too, until A and Oonoki managed to cut him off. She doesn't have that luxury in this match.

Don't forget she's facing a sharingan user. One of the best in the manga. The sharingan's ability to read movements is even more effective here given the fact that Tsunade is almost a completely linear fighter. Dodging and avoiding her when the match starts off at 40 meters is not a hard task to accomplish. I find the notion of her catching Madara in taijutsu laughable anyways. Once he notes her strength and his version of Susano-o he's not going to allow her to step anywhere near him. 

And someone define "toying until 10 minutes". The last I checked he wasn't taking the Kage's seriously, yet dropped a forest on their heads and threw 25 clones at them to mock what Tsunade had just told him. The last I checked he didn't take Oonoki and Muu the least bit seriously, even calling them "children", yet dropped them just as easily - without perfect Susano-o (or any notable Susano-o for that matter) 



> I don't see how he could put her down. Once her Byakugou runs out, sure. But depending on how much she has stored that could take a while, and its not like she'll be wasting chakra on protecting other people, so she can use it more tactfully in this match-up.



Madara has more chakra than Tsunade does anyways so dragging the fight out seems pointless. The longer the match goes the more susceptible she is to genjutsu as well. And besides she has 10 minutes before she is obliterated - despite the fact that Madara already made two Tsuchikage's look like children _without_ perfect Susano-o.



> Furthermore, Madara has absolutely no knowledge. He won't know to watch out for her super strength - knowledge is key to fighting Tsunade. His ignorance and arrogance will be his disadvantage.



What? Madara had no knowledge of Tsunade's strength and speed _until _he observed it mid-fight. This idea that Madara is not cautious of his opponents because he's arrogant is just flat out wrong. Even when not taking the Kage's in the least bit serious he managed to keep Susano-o out at all times (depsite the fact that he was an Edo) and in the most dire of moments managed to use a Mokuton clone because he was aware that he might be taken off guard.

Madara is cocky, sure. But he's not stupid. Allowing people to touch him isn't something he's going to do nor is allowing them to get close to him a viable option without knowing what they are capable of first. 



> Can Madara even control Katsuyu? She doesn't have eyes like other animals, and if she divided into thousands of clones, would Madara still have her under his control? Even if he did, Tsunade could easily use Kai and release from it. No biggie.



Tsunade took note of Madara's Katons before she went to the battlefield. Summoning a slug against Katons seems like a terrible idea. And if Madara can control Katsuya, you are not breaking a Mangekyou genjutsu with a simple kai. That's just ridiculous.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2013)

Jad said:


> They were stuck in Jinton, how were they suppose to regenerate? Plus what use would he have with clones when he activated Perfect Sasuno the very next second. The difference between Mokuton Branches and Mokuton Clones is......the clone part.



The same way Madara did after being hit?

The difference between Madara and the clones is the material they're made of. Madara doesn't make his Mokubunshin out of the regenerating ashes Kabuto made him out of, he makes them out of wood like the rest of his Mokuton. His actual technique is no different now than it was when he was alive just because he's an Edo.



> How in the world did he perform a switcharoo with a Mokuton clone while in mid-air and in front of the Kages eyes? Dude your not making any sense. He used a clone while in the seal which prevents any ninjutsu or movement. It doesn't make sense....



Probably by jumping out of a small gap at the last second using a clone as a stepping stone or something? Would Gaara's waves of sand not, at least for a moment, break the Kage's line of sight? The seals don't prevent ninjutsu or movement until they actually constrict the target, not just surround them.


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## joshhookway (Apr 28, 2013)

Remember, this is feats only.


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## Jad (Apr 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The same way Madara did after being hit?
> 
> The difference between Madara and the clones is the material they're made of. Madara doesn't make his Mokubunshin out of the regenerating ashes Kabuto made him out of, he makes them out of wood like the rest of his Mokuton. His actual technique is no different now than it was when he was alive just because he's an Edo.



Alright man, look at what I said. I said the clones were stuck within Jinton. Madara was obviously not, because it only shaved apart of him.

Second part, clones. They are clones of Madara. If Madara is an Edo, guess what? His clones are going to share the same property. 



> Probably by jumping out of a small gap at the last second using a clone as a stepping stone or something? Would Gaara's waves of sand not, at least for a moment, break the Kage's line of sight? The seals don't prevent ninjutsu or movement until they actually constrict the target, not just surround them.



Look at the scan. 

1

Do you see Tsunade in the first panel behind Madara and the formation of the Sand Pyramid? Do you see how miniscule her distance is between the branch she is going to land on? By the time she landed on that stump, the Pyramid seal was finished. Your going to tell me Madara made a Mokuton clone than leaped out of the Sand pyramid before it closed up, which is within the time period it took Tsunade to land on that stump? Come on man...Just admit it, it was a Mokuton clone she punched.

This is him creating Mokuton Clones

1

Do you see the seal his doing, how it's up right. Do you see him pulling off that seal in the 3rd panel of the first link I gave you? Do you also see how ALL those Mokuton clones have the same 'Edo crack' look to them. Ahuh...


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## αce (Apr 28, 2013)

Tsunade punched a Mokuton clone...


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## LostSelf (Apr 28, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> This is true, but Madara claimed to not be trying, and yet he could easily make 25+ mokuton clones to combat the five Kages with pure taijutsu. However, he used ninjutsu instead, and even when he did create clones, they too used sharingan ninjutsu.​




Yes, because fighting five kages with taijutsu by himself would be a death sentence. Specially when Tsunade exploded part of his body with a punch and his Susano'o was sent flying by them. Doing that is not his best choice. Now using his clones with Susano'o was.



> Madara also had mokuton, unlimited chakra and regeneration though. It wasn't EMS Madara they were fighting. _Five_ Kage wouldn't have been required up until that point if Madara didn't possess any of those extra hax techniques Kabuto gave him.



I agree with this. But it took 3 Kage level oponent to put MS Madara into a corner and force him to use Rinnegan even when he needed to be aware of an entire division. I agree that the five Kage would've stomped an EMS Madara without PS, Mokuton, Rinnegan and Kyuubi. But one Kage against this Madara is not having it easy.

I am unsure about who would win here. It might end in a battle of stamina, and i don't know who has the bigger one here.



Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm pretty sure that if Madara had felt like going serious, the Kages would have never gotten to the point where they would have pushed him to use Perfect Susano'o. This is fairly obvious from the fact that he was very relaxed throughout the entire fight, and spent more time playing about with his new jutsu than actually trying to kill them.



I agree with this. If he wanted to finish this quick, he would have. What i tried to say is that Madara never fought Raikage and Tsunade in taijutsu because he couldn't stand up to them, but because doing that would be too much for him against 5 kage. Especially someone as fast as Ei.​


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## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2013)

Jad said:


> Alright man, look at what I said. I said the clones were stuck within Jinton. Madara was obviously not, because it only shaved apart of him.
> 
> Second part, clones. They are clones of Madara. If Madara is an Edo, guess what? His clones are going to share the same property.



I thought he had been hit and had mostly reformed when we saw him again, I guess I remembered it wrong.

Still though, they are constructed of the same wood the other branches are made of. Madara doesn't recreate Edo Tensei bodies, he recreates wooden puppets that look like him. The wood will not regenerate from ashes like Madara himself would, it would just disappear.

If Jinton could solve the problem right away I don't see why they would continuously try to use Gaara's seals after landing strikes when the sand moves slower than the beam.




> Look at the scan.
> 
> _fast_
> 
> ...



If base Naruto can do this _fast_ at the beginning of part 2, I honestly don't see why not.

Gaara, Ay, Onoki, and Mei are all facing Madara from the same direction when the sand is just about to cover him up from the front. Their line of sight would be broken before Tsunade turned around to look at him again, since she didn't look until after the seal was completed. We arent going to see him make handseals when the sand is in front of him.


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## Jad (Apr 28, 2013)

I just showed you the Mokuton clones have Edo-Tensei cracks.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2013)

To look like Madara. . .


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## Jad (Apr 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> To look like Madara. . .



They. Are. Clones. They are suppose to mimic the properties of the person. That proves you little "He regenerated" part wrong.

If you believe they are JUST cloned to look like him but do not retain Edo Tensei, than why do they have Edo-Tensei cracks in different spots?



All the evidence is stacked up against you.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2013)

The Edo Tensei cracks don't convince me. The clones are intended to mirror the image of the caster. Hashirama's Mokubunshin had all the injuries he did, but the only injury it actually took was Madara's slash.

Maybe we'll see Edo Hiruzen use clones that regenerate or something, but until then, I just can't see Mokubunshin regenerating.


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## Jad (Apr 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The Edo Tensei cracks don't convince me. The clones are intended to mirror the image of the caster. Hashirama's Mokubunshin had all the injuries he did, but the only injury it actually took was Madara's slash.



Each Clone has their own Edo-Tensei cracks placement not mimicking the original, just how the original's Edo Tensei cracks keep changing etc..

I gave you a scan of the manga page showing you how impossible it is for Madara to make a clone and jump out in such a time frame.


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## Bringer (Apr 28, 2013)

Jad said:


> They. Are. Clones. They are suppose to mimic the properties of the person. That proves you little "He regenerated" part wrong.
> 
> If you believe they are JUST cloned to look like him but do not retain Edo Tensei, than why do they have Edo-Tensei cracks in different spots?
> 
> ...



Are you suggesting that if a edo gets hit completely by a jinton it cant regenerate?


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## Bonly (Apr 28, 2013)

Jad said:


> Each Clone has their own Edo-Tensei cracks placement not mimicking the original, just how the original's Edo Tensei cracks keep changing etc..
> 
> I gave you a scan of the manga page showing you how impossible it is for Madara to make a clone and jump out in such a time frame.



Don't bother to keep going, he won't get it.


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## Jad (Apr 28, 2013)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Are you suggesting that if a edo gets hit completely by a jinton it cant regenerate?



No....where did I say that? They can't regenerate if they are stuck in Jinton though. Onoki had Jinton up and running from the point he destroyed the Clones to when Madara brought out Perfect Sasunoo. How were they suppose to regenerate within Jinton?


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 28, 2013)

Jad said:


> They. Are. Clones. They are suppose to mimic the properties of the person. That proves you little "He regenerated" part wrong.



In what way? Does the real Naruto disappear in a puff of smoke if he gets hit? No.



> If you believe they are JUST cloned to look like him but do not retain Edo Tensei, than why do they have Edo-Tensei cracks in different spots?



You answered your own question.



> All the evidence is stacked up against you.



It doesn't take long to form a seal to make a clone. Comparing the speed of ninjas in Naruto to what you deem a reasonable speed is kind of pointless. Madara could still form PS after he got sealed too, by the way.



Jad said:


> Each Clone has their own Edo-Tensei cracks placement not mimicking the original, just how the original's Edo Tensei cracks keep changing etc..
> 
> I gave you a scan of the manga page showing you how impossible it is for Madara to make a clone and jump out in such a time frame.



See above. And in that scan of Tsunade landing, we don't see how close Gaara is to finishing the pyramid. Judging time by using panels isn't an effective measure.



Jad said:


> No....where did I say that? They can't regenerate if they are stuck in Jinton though. Onoki had Jinton up and running from the point he destroyed the Clones to when Madara brought out Perfect Sasunoo. How were they suppose to regenerate within Jinton?



And he split his Jinton. Unless you think there were absolutely no clones down the middle of it, at least some would start regenerating if they could.


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## Ezekial (Apr 28, 2013)

Madara went a full day against a handful of Senju, he would annihilate Tsunade, what can she do except evade, his Katons will be enough to kill her.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Furthermore, Madara has absolutely no knowledge. He won't know to watch out for her super strength - knowledge is key to fighting Tsunade. His ignorance and arrogance will be his disadvantage.


 Madara had no knowledge when he faced the Kage, look how that turned out.


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## Jad (Apr 28, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> In what way? Does the real Naruto disappear in a puff of smoke if he gets hit? No.



Shadow Clones disappear on hit. Mokuton Clones do not disappear when hit, thus they can regenerate if they are cloned from a Edo Tensei.



> You answered your own question.



Each clone has their own 'Edo-Tensei' marking, different to the original.



> It doesn't take long to form a seal to make a clone. Comparing the speed of ninjas in Naruto to what you deem a reasonable speed is kind of pointless. Madara could still form PS after he got sealed too, by the way.



This post absolutely doesn't make sense. He didn't have enough time to create a clone than jump out of the Sand prism, re-look at my scan-page. Come on man keep up.



> See above. And in that scan of Tsunade landing, we don't see how close Gaara is to finishing the pyramid. Judging time by using panels isn't an effective measure.



You....I swear lol. He closed the prism quickly ok? Because the time we saw the prisim being formed around Madara was when Tsunade hadn't landed on the tree branch even though she was ever so close to. Than she lands on the branch and bam prisim is shut tight. It was a Madara clone....



> And he split his Jinton. Unless you think there were absolutely no clones down the middle of it, at least some would start regenerating if they could.



Would Kishimoto even bother focusing on that?

Plus I AM not 100%, this is off the top of my head, but I am pretty sure that if the original gets hurt, the clones stop functioning properly or get hurt also.

Examples I remember:
1. Mokuton
2. Sai clone disappearing because he was being knocked unconscious
Mokuton


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 28, 2013)

> They were stuck in Jinton, how were they suppose to regenerate?



Jinton doesn't annihilate souls. They would have regenerated after it stopped if they truly had edo tensei, just like all the other edos regenerated from explosions after the explosions stopped, by pulling more paper mache dirt from the environment.  Like Sai's brother did after Deidara nuked him.

In the example you cited with Hashirama's clone feint, the clone turned to wood shortly after it was hit, and that didn't happen to Madara's.  I'm also highly doubtful on Mokubunshin gaining edo status, as edo tensei is a jutsu that bind a soul to a body made of dirt, and we'd have to say that the jutsu is binding a piece of Madara's soul to a clone.  Not to mention mokubunshin are a special kind of clone made from wood, and gain their unique properties from being made of that life wood, and I'm not sure they would maintain that if the wood got made of dirt.

There's also the fact that Madara was like, "Good job, you defeated my clones," and acted like they were defeated, instead of talking about how they'd just come back as soon as the Jinton stopped.

Then I just remembered we have Edo Itachi, who made clones that looked like Edo's, but they still exploded into crows in one hit, instead of gaining edo status and regenerating after the stab.



> I gave you a scan of the manga page showing you how impossible it is for Madara to make a clone and jump out in such a time frame.



It's incredibly hard if not impossible to determine when clone feints occur, unless Kishi explicitly tells us.  Look at Gaara making a sand clone and replacing Onoki with it when Mizukage shot him, or when Kakashi could have possibly switched with a raiton clone during his Bansho Tennin into Asura tail combo.  

Just using the Kakashi example, it seems highly unlikely that Kakashi made and substituted with a clone during bansho tennin, so was Deva always fighting a clone?  Did Kakashi make a clone and have it hiding in case he needed to substitute?  When did he substitute, before he was pulled?  Was it when he caught himself with the manriki chain to resist for a moment?  Was it after that failed?  It seems like he wouldn't have bothered with a chain if he was going to explode on them anyway, and it seemed like Kakashi was tired from behind the rock, so it's implied that it wasn't always a clone, but really we don't know.  Just like how we don't know when Madara substituted or made his mokubunshin to begin with.

As far as him not having time to substitute if he already had a clone made, the Kakashi case shows that you can have people staring at you with magic eyes and miss a replacement.  If you recall, even back in part one, Guy blinked and missed Gaara's substitution during Lee's gated combo.  

I personally don't think Tsunade punched the real Madara, but that's just the impression I got, and if it was a recreation of what Hashirama did to Madara, then I think we're justified in assuming that.  However the nature of the jutsu is such that it's meant to leave you guessing and in wonder of where and when and how it happened, so I don't think there's anything wrong with someone else believing Madara pre-made clone to hang out in the forest after he got knocked into the ground, so it could swap with him just in case he got hit.

--------------------------------------------
As for clones breaking, Naruto got into that fight with Itachi and Nagato, and his clones on the battlefield kept going.  I think the clones he kept with other people during the second Sasuke search stayed intact even when Itachi put him in a genjutsu, though I'm not sure how that counts.  The Sai image is interesting.


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## Lurko (Apr 28, 2013)

Madara burns her down with that huge katon from the current chapter.


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## joshhookway (Apr 28, 2013)

Remember jinton crushes on a molecular level. If Jinton turns an edo into molecules, they will have no way to reform.


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## Sans (Apr 28, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Remember jinton crushes on a molecular level. If Jinton turns an edo into molecules, they will have no way to reform.



This is wrong.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 28, 2013)

Souls do not exist on the molecular level.  The jutsu drags dust and dirt from the world to construct a new body for the spirit to inhabit, and the soul is bound to earth.  So yeah.


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## αce (Apr 28, 2013)

> Remember jinton crushes on a molecular level. If Jinton turns an edo into molecules, they will have no way to reform.



actually not true
doesn't matter how much they get crushed
they will reform


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## Sans (Apr 28, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Souls do not exist on the molecular level.  The jutsu drags dust and dirt from the world to construct a new body for the spirit to inhabit, and the soul is bound to earth.  So yeah.



This is right.


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## joshhookway (Apr 29, 2013)

You guys don't get it. Getting crushed on a molecular level means literally split into atoms. Air will carry atoms far so that it would be impossible to reform.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Madara wins. All she could do to his Susanoo was crack it and it flying a few meters back without really hurting Madara himself. As long as Madara has his ribcage Susanoo, he's good. Add in Genjutsu to help in CQC along with the Sharingan, Susanoo, Katon's, and Gunbai+ Uchihagaeshi is looking good to counter Tsunade. Its just going to take a bit of time for Madara to win due to her Byakugo.



This. 

Given Madara was able to fight Hashirama long periods (both times EMS Madara fought Hashirama), I wouldn't say chakra would be an issue for him.

Although I'm having trouble seeing how Uchihagaeshi will play a role in this fight.



joshhookway said:


> Remember jinton crushes on a molecular level. If Jinton turns an edo into molecules, they will have no way to reform.



Madara got hit with Jinton twice and managed to recover.


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## Sans (Apr 29, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> You guys don't get it. Getting crushed on a molecular level means literally split into atoms. Air will carry atoms far so that it would be impossible to reform.



What part about a soul being bound to earth via sacrifice, and taking whatever it needs for a new body from the environment, do you not get?


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## αce (Apr 29, 2013)

> You guys don't get it. Getting crushed on a molecular level means literally split into atoms. Air will carry atoms far so that it would be impossible to reform.



You're under the assumption that they reform using the remnants of what is left of them after an injury. That's just false. They can literally be wiped off the earth completely but still reform on account of their soul still being attached to the impure world.


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## Sans (Apr 29, 2013)

Madara literally wiped himself with the Meteor.

He reformed using stuff around him.

So yeah.


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## joshhookway (Apr 29, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Madara literally wiped himself with the Meteor.
> 
> He reformed using stuff around him.
> 
> So yeah.



Meteors don't crush on a molecular level.

If an edo is crushed into molecules, those molecules would indefinitely suspend in the air. They won't physical be able to reform.


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## Sans (Apr 29, 2013)

They reform from the earth around them. 

That's been said so many times.

They're bound through their soul being suspended in the living world.

It doesn't matter what physical damage they take, as stated in the manga, they are unkillable. They are unkillable because their soul is bound here. Since their soul is bound here, their bodies can be remade from the earth around them.

It doesn't matter if you use a rusty crowbar to damage an Edo or a Jinton beam. Either way, the damage will be reformed from the surrounding environment just the same.

There's an entire page of people telling you this.


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## joshhookway (Apr 29, 2013)

Tell me the science behind how an edo can simply turn "the earth" into flesh?


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## Sans (Apr 29, 2013)

Take it up with Kishi, because that's what he said happens and that's what he's shown to happen.

Science left the room a long time ago.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 29, 2013)

Tsunade worst nightmare is fighting a uchiha, sharingon precognition basically guarantee's she won't hit madara and even if she pulls a surprise, rib cage Susano will defend him, she can't look into his eyes so her taijutsu is also greatly hindered, madara proved his taijutsu is superb and his reactions are extremely high as well.


I would argue even with Susano completely restricted he still wins, I don't even believe tsunade can beat the sasuke that took on sai, naruto, Yamato, and Sakura.


Restrict sharingon and Susano then we have a match.


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## Kai (Apr 29, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Meteors don't crush on a molecular level.
> 
> If an edo is crushed into molecules, those molecules would indefinitely suspend in the air. They won't physical be able to reform.


If Jinton can erase Edo Tensei from the Earth without reformation, it would have been brought up in the manga at some point involving Onoki during the entirety of the war.

It should be pretty obvious when physics laws aren't within reason of the manga.


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2013)

fire destroys objects at the molecular level as it breaks the chemical bonds between things that it ignites and turns it into both smoke and ash.

That doesn't mean that if you burn an ET the smoke and ash doesn't reform into paper.

Fire and explosions, even acid destroys things on the molecular level as well as jinton.
Jinton simply destroying things on a molecular level means that its attacks are smaller than some molecules just like FRS destroying things on a cellular level just means that its attacks are smaller than some cells.


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## Bringer (Apr 30, 2013)

Jad said:


> No....where did I say that? They can't regenerate if they are stuck in Jinton though. Onoki had Jinton up and running from the point he destroyed the Clones to when Madara brought out Perfect Sasunoo. How were they suppose to regenerate within Jinton?



What do you mean by "stuck in Jinton though" You're suggesting the Jinton Cube stays active... forever.

He actually liquify's in the fight.

The clones are hit by the Jinton.

Once the Jinton cube ceases, they'd just regenerate... unless the Jinton cube remains active forever... anyway in the next chapter the Jinton cube is gone. Though it could be said that Madara simply released his clones instead of having them regenerate.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 1, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Yes, because fighting five kages with taijutsu by himself would be a death sentence. Specially when Tsunade exploded part of his body with a punch and his Susano'o was sent flying by them. Doing that is not his best choice. Now using his clones with Susano'o was.



He wouldn't be fighting by himself though, he'd have the aid of 24 other clones. But apparently even 24 clones using taijutsu wouldn't be as effective as them using ninjutsu. He claimed that he wasn't trying against the Gokage, but he was at least capable of recognizing that taijutsu wouldn't work. 





> I agree with this. But it took 3 Kage level oponent to put MS Madara into a corner and force him to use Rinnegan even when he needed to be aware of an entire division. I agree that the five Kage would've stomped an EMS Madara without PS, Mokuton, Rinnegan and Kyuubi. But one Kage against this Madara is not having it easy.



Indeed, I fully agree. Two Kage, or three at most could take him with more ease.



> I am unsure about who would win here. It might end in a battle of stamina, and i don't know who has the bigger one here.



Madara fought for 24 hours straight, so I'd be tempted to say him. But it also depends how much chakra Tsunade has stored in her seal.




> I agree with this. If he wanted to finish this quick, he would have. What i tried to say is that Madara never fought Raikage and Tsunade in taijutsu because he couldn't stand up to them, but because doing that would be too much for him against 5 kage. Especially someone as fast as Ei.



I know where you're coming from, but I ultimately have to disagree since numbers were never a problem to begin with due to his ability to create endless wood clones.



Ezekial said:


> Madara had no knowledge when he faced the Kage, look how that turned out.



That Madara had edo tensei regeneration, unlimited chakra, mokuton and a rinnegan, he was tiers above the Madara we're discussing in this match-up.



αce said:


> Tsunade's initial disadvantage begins at the start of the match with the distance. Tsunade has to utilize CQC to even become a threat to Madara. He was able to take note of her speed and strength and set up a counter, to which she had no answer too, until A and Oonoki managed to cut him off. She doesn't have that luxury in this match.



I agree, but Madara won't be able to recognise her strength _until_ she gets close. He can shoot katons and projectiles at her all he wants while she approaches him, but she can either dodge them or flat out tank with Sozou Saisei/Byakugou. Ei, Onoki and Mei's help were exceptionally useful in allowing Tsunade to land successive hits on him, but as long as she can regenerate/evade she can still accomplish the same results, it will just take longer and she'll receive more damage.



> Don't forget she's facing a sharingan user. One of the best in the manga. The sharingan's ability to read movements is even more effective here given the fact that Tsunade is almost a completely linear fighter. Dodging and avoiding her when the match starts off at 40 meters is not a hard task to accomplish. I find the notion of her catching Madara in taijutsu laughable anyways. Once he notes her strength and his version of Susano-o he's not going to allow her to step anywhere near him.



I don't see how he can stop her from nearing him, nothing he has can actually kill her unless he exhausts her regeneration. She has full knowledge of his abilities and has landed hits on him without looking into his eyes before. Now I agree that he will be able to read her movements with the sharingan, but given that he's fighting ICly here, he's bound to be arrogant enough to deactivate it at points [or at least, within the first 10 minutes] - as he most certainly was during his fight against the Gokage. Furthermore, even if he can read her movements, if he's inside the Susano'o it will hardly help as much as if he was running about, something he may not risk given that Tsunade can blow a hole open in his chest if she lands even one hit.




> Madara has more chakra than Tsunade does anyways so dragging the fight out seems pointless. The longer the match goes the more susceptible she is to genjutsu as well. And besides she has 10 minutes before she is obliterated - despite the fact that Madara already made two Tsuchikage's look like children _without_ perfect Susano-o.



That depends on how much chakra Tsunade has stored up in her seal, if she only has a few weeks like she did against Madara then she's definitely not going to match up to him in stamina. Otherwise, she probably could. However, I agree that the logner the match is, the more opportunities he has to catch her in a genjutsu, but I do think she could land a hit before that, given the circumstances.



> What? Madara had no knowledge of Tsunade's strength and speed _until _he observed it mid-fight. This idea that Madara is not cautious of his opponents because he's arrogant is just flat out wrong. Even when not taking the Kage's in the least bit serious he managed to keep Susano-o out at all times (depsite the fact that he was an Edo) and in the most dire of moments managed to use a Mokuton clone because he was aware that he might be taken off guard.



But Madara was also only able to observe her strength because he maintained his Susano'o - something that he had only been forced into using by other shinobi. If he tries to go all speedster like he did against countless fodders, and doesn't take her very seriously, he could easily take a hit [even if its only for a fleeting second, a graze or a poke could be pretty detrimental]. Granted if he doesn't take any hits and goes " oh shit, she's really strong, better pump out the Susano'o " then your point holds merit, but I think we should consider the possibility of his arrogance; _initially_, being a hindrance to his performance. As for the mokuton clone, I'm pretty sure he used that while Gaara's sand surrounded him, since when Tsunade blew him open he didn't revert back into wood.



> Madara is cocky, sure. But he's not stupid. Allowing people to touch him isn't something he's going to do nor is allowing them to get close to him a viable option without knowing what they are capable of first.



I don't think he has any option. What can he really do to stop her getting close? I'm well aware that he may be able to use Amaterasu or a powerful finger genjutsu to confuse her, and that could by all means mess her up and kill her, but with what feats he's shown specific to his EMS form, I don't think he can stop her getting close to him.



> Tsunade took note of Madara's Katons before she went to the battlefield. Summoning a slug against Katons seems like a terrible idea. And if Madara can control Katsuya, you are not breaking a Mangekyou genjutsu with a simple kai. That's just ridiculous.



Using Katsuyu against Madara's katons would not be a good idea, but I didn't imply that it would be. It was originally something Atlantic Storm noted, that Katsutu divisions could be infused to her and used to break her out of genjutsu [seeing as how she has full knowledge of his abilities], and I agreed. Using a giant Katsuyu would be ineffective in this instance since they can't break through his Susano'o.



Jad said:


> No, pretty sure Katon and Yaska Magatama WOULD give her difficulties. The latter would keep her on fire, the former would knock her back on the ground to heal her injuries from. Which proves she can't get consecutive hits on Sasunoo to bust it open to hurt the REAL Madara before he reacts.



I don't see why she would stay on fire whenever Madara's other katon failed to keep her ablaze. [1] [2] In fact, the only thing they seemed to light up were mokuton branches, which are naturally more flammable anyway. Yasaka Magatama would only hit her if she failed to land a hit on him initially, because when she fails to land a hit, Madara can easily land a point blank YM and send her flying. When she lands a hit however, the reverse happens. The hit she failed to land on Madara was the one where she tried to impale him with a sword, which he could easily dodge. Its not as simple when she punches his ribcage though.




> No, that was a Mokuton clone. You can CLEARLY see it in the air after she punched the clone Madara than being sealed. How was he able to pull a reversal infront of 5 Kages without anyone noticing while he was in the air floating? Look at the Hashirama and Madara example, AFTER the strike Madara delivered, did it automatically turn into a Mokuton clone? [1][2] No it didn't. It's clear to me that Hashirama can show if his using a clone or not. Same with Madara considering they couldn't tell the difference by the time it got sealed up quickly. Most likely it turned into it's Mokuton figure after it was hidden up by all that sand.



You can't _clearly_ see anything, its pretty hard to tell what happened at all there actually. Madara probably switched once he was surrounded by sand and out of the Kage's sight - its not like it takes very long to switch yourself with a clone/substitution, and its completely feasible that he switched somewhere between when the sand surrounded him on the second-center panel of _this_ page, and when Tsunade landed on the ground and Gaara fully sealed him moments later. And anyway, Hashirama wasn't completely destroyed like Madara was by Tsunade, he just took a lot of damage, and it wasn't until he appeared to be on his last few breaths that he dissolved into a clone.​​


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 1, 2013)

blk said:


> Tsunade got close to Madara because he wasn't trying to avoid her.



And given that he has absolutely no knowledge of her [that he doesn't even know she's a Kage or a descendant of Hashirama], there's every chance he will do the same thing in this match-up.



> The Susano'o arms (which have a sword) work as an extension of Madara, i don't see how can Tsunade bypass them.



What's he going to do though - stab her with them? Its not like she can't tank them, and even then his speed with that sword wasn't particularly impressive, all of the [exhausted] Kage were able to _react_ before he could hit her with it.



> And no, the Magatama hit Tsunade because she was open to a counter-attack, which is something that will happen if she manages to reach and punch Susano'o.



That was only after her attack failed though, if she lands an initial strike then Madara goes flying off into the distance, at which point he will shoot ranged attacks at her, which she either dodges or tanks, and then swoops in in a surprise assault and attempts to land another strike. Only if her attack fails will he successfully shoot a point blank YM that will send her shooting into the distance and render follow up attacks null.



> Infact, this is the point: when you start an attack, you are also open to a counter-attack. If Tsunade hit Susano'o, Madara can exploit the opening and send her away with a Magatama, or a Katon, or the Susano'o arm.



But Tsunade's entire style focuses on using resilience to fight despite wounds. Even if Madara lands a strike on Tsunade while she lands a strike on him, his defenses will suffer, while hers will remain untouched because of her regeneration.



> Lastly, Madara can reform Susano'o immediatly, there is no ample time to land any hit on him.



There was definitely enough time to land a hit on him after she blew his defenses open since . . well, she did in fact land a hit on him after she smashed his Susano'o.



> The burning damage are dependant on three things: duration of exposure, involved surface and the type of organic tissue.
> When she repelled those fire balls, the contact lasted for a _miniscule amount of time_, and only _a part_ of her arms received most of the heat.
> 
> To put some perspective, if the affected body surface area is roughly 15% there are serious complications (like respiratory ones) that can easily be fatal if not treated (and an arm is considered as 9%).
> ...



She and the other Kage were hit by another one of his much larger Katon, but they didn't appear to be on fire or to take any huge amounts of damage. I think you assume Madara to be constantly blowing huge amounts of fire at her for long periods of time, when in reality only some of the fire from his huge katons will hit her, and they only last for a few seconds at best. You are right in saying the katon Tsunade took only touched her for a short period of time, but there's no reason to assume a few seconds more would make a great deal of difference given how resilient she is. This isn't real life after all, and characters don't take nearly as much damage from attacks as they should.




> Also, body parts like eyes (which yes, will melt immediatly at contact with the Katon), the brain, etc.., are far less durable than arms and such.



No they won't. A giant shinra tensei crushing Tsunade under a village-worth of rubble didn't crush her head and pulp her brain, just because it targets her head it doesn't mean her brain is automatically going to fail on her. Hell, one of Sasuke's poweful katon _scalding Orochimaru's head_ didn't melt his eyes or brain. And I'm pretty sure Kisame's head/brain didn't melt either after being hit by _Asa Kujaku_. I stress, she isn't going to die inside a brief period of being scalded.​​


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## Jad (May 1, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> _Asa Kujaku_[/URL]. I stress, she isn't going to die inside a brief period of being scalded.​​



The technique was used 5 to 6 years ago by Kishi. Look at how much more power it has, how much bigger it is. In that EXACT same arc, Gai fought off his EXACT copy and got stronger. If he used it again, yeah...



> No they won't. A giant shinra tensei crushing Tsunade under a village-worth of rubble didn't crush her head and pulp her brain, just because it targets her head it doesn't mean her brain is automatically going to fail on her.



A fodder survived the hit as well that was literally standing right next to her. I think you enjoy using that scenario too much when she was obviously, when hit, not in danger at all. Or hit with a much lesser force. Shinra Tensei MAIN hit was from the center, than the force gradually weakened and carried the city. That's why the hole is much deeper in the center.



> Hell, one of Sasuke's poweful katon scalding Orochimaru's head didn't melt his eyes or brain.



*Powerful*? I like your wording, that Katon was far from powerful, but it still gave Orochimaru 3rd Degree burns, just so happens he has an extra layer of skin that melts right off. Sasuke a Genin > Madara's Katon. Really?



> She and the other Kage were hit by another one of his much larger Katon, but they didn't appear to be on fire or to take any huge amounts of damage.



Reference?



> What's he going to do though - stab her with them? Its not like she can't tank them, and even then his speed with that sword wasn't particularly impressive, all of the [exhausted] Kage were able to _react_ before he could hit her with it.



Isn't he falling from gravity with his sword stretched out? Of course they can react to that, there is no significant speed involved.



> That was only after her attack failed though, if she lands an initial strike then Madara goes flying off into the distance, at which point he will shoot ranged attacks at her, which she either dodges or tanks, and then swoops in in a surprise assault and attempts to land another strike. Only if her attack fails will he successfully shoot a point blank YM that will send her shooting into the distance and render follow up attacks null.



She can't TANK a Katon if she is hit with it. Lights her up on fire, blinding her (flames would be roaring her around her completely), and continually degenerating her cells, destroying them every passing moment. Her Mitosis regeneration won't mean a thing because adjacent cells going through mitosis will only be walking into a space occupied by fire only to die. Mitosis won't work if the body is being continually attacked.


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## Jad (May 1, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I don't see why she would stay on fire whenever Madara's other katon failed to keep her ablaze. [1] [2] In fact, the only thing they seemed to light up were mokuton branches, which are naturally more flammable anyway. Yasaka Magatama would only hit her if she failed to land a hit on him initially, because when she fails to land a hit, Madara can easily land a point blank YM and send her flying. When she lands a hit however, the reverse happens. The hit she failed to land on Madara was the one where she tried to impale him with a sword, which he could easily dodge. Its not as simple when she punches his ribcage though.​




You used the worst examples to make your point.


 The first example, he was lighting the wood on top of them on fire, he wasn't aiming to hit them. He was teasing them, exhausting them. The heat from the wood burning around them would only serve to weaken them.
 Those flames are pretty solid to begin with. Hence it's ability to bust through concrete when Sasuke used a much LARGER version. Plus she batted them away pretty quickly and her arms seemed to be very injured. She even "guh" at the pain. Of course they didn't pass through her body, meaning it wasn't able to catch her clothes on fire also.

Let's put it this way, Tsunade is not going to get a second hit in on Madara because Kishi made it clear as daylight that it took a cultimation of the Kage's to land a hit. HE LET her hit her the first time, which yes, will probably happen again, but he sure as hell wasn't going to let her hit the second time. Just so happens 4 Kages working together can get another hit in...That's the struggle they had, that's why it was such a hard battle. I mean the fasted moving object, Ei and Onoki, couldn't get two hits on panel in consecutive shots from what I remember.



> You can't _clearly_ see anything, its pretty hard to tell what happened at all there actually. Madara probably switched once he was surrounded by sand and out of the Kage's sight - its not like it takes very long to switch yourself with a clone/substitution, and its completely feasible that he switched somewhere between when the sand surrounded him on the second-center panel of _this_ page, and when Tsunade landed on the ground and Gaara fully sealed him moments later. And anyway, Hashirama wasn't completely destroyed like Madara was by Tsunade, he just took a lot of damage, and it wasn't until he appeared to be on his last few breaths that he dissolved into a clone.


​
How was he suppose to create a clone and jump out when he was already mostly covered by sand? The entire scenario reflected how Hashirama  (the real one) hid underground, and his clone took the fall. That's how clone feinting works. Why in the hell would the REAL Madara engange Tsunade in Taijutsu without Sasunoo? Don't you think that is a little suspicious? Considering he ALWAYS uses it when engaging in battle. Madara is not that dumb to get himself caught in a sealing technique THAT quickly only to chance it by swapping himself out with a clone at the last second, when it seems the more reasonable, understandable, and undeniable method was to fake a clone in that fight...


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## Jad (May 1, 2013)

BringerOfChaos said:


> *Though it could be said that Madara simply released his clones instead of having them regenerate.*



That's what I am saying.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 2, 2013)

Jad said:


> The technique was used 5 to 6 years ago by Kishi. Look at how much more power it has, how much bigger it is. In that EXACT same arc, Gai fought off his EXACT copy and got stronger. If he used it again, yeah...



To be honest, I'm not sure if Gai's more recent usings of Asa Kujaku _are_ more powerful, he just tends to use the technique at a range now so that all of the fireballs he creates fly in every direction. Against Kisame he directed most of his punches to physically striking him, hence not as many fireballs could be seen since they instantly lit Kisame ablaze. 





> A fodder survived the hit as well that was literally standing right next to her. I think you enjoy using that scenario too much when she was obviously, when hit, not in danger at all. Or hit with a much lesser force. Shinra Tensei MAIN hit was from the center, than the force gradually weakened and carried the city. That's why the hole is much deeper in the center.



Literally _every single person_ in Konoha had been surrounded by Katsuyu clones - even _dead ones_. There's no reason at all why Tsunade would have assumed that random fodder ANBU could survive being crushed under an entire village's worth of rubble. Use common sense - he was protected off-panel like everyone else. And to be honest, I don't think the feat was much less impressive even though she wasn't hit in the center, she was hit by, and crushed under _gargantuan waves_ of moving rubble that had the force and momentum of the CST behind them. I should add that, Tsunade had been _chasing Pein_ from the  just before he blew up Konoha, and after Konoha had been destroyed we could clearly see that the area Tsunade had been in was amongst the _worst damaged_ in the entire village. Unlike the rest of the village, which had been left in rubble, the area below the Hokage faces was _totally flattened into the crater_. 




> *Powerful*? I like your wording, that Katon was far from powerful, but it still gave Orochimaru 3rd Degree burns, just so happens he has an extra layer of skin that melts right off. Sasuke a Genin > Madara's Katon. Really?



Sasuke; as an Uchiha, was a skilled katon user even in Part I. Granted the technique he used wasn't anywhere near as big or as overwhelming as Madara's but I don't imagine it was any less hot. Furthermore, if the only thing that katon could do was burn off a _flimsy layer of skin_, then my point holds even more merit.




> Isn't he falling from gravity with his sword stretched out? Of course they can react to that, there is no significant speed involved.



His body is falling, but he has full control of his Susano'o arm. 



> She can't TANK a Katon if she is hit with it. Lights her up on fire, blinding her (flames would be roaring her around her completely), and continually degenerating her cells, destroying them every passing moment. Her Mitosis regeneration won't mean a thing because adjacent cells going through mitosis will only be walking into a space occupied by fire only to die. Mitosis won't work if the body is being continually attacked.



You're exaggerating . The katon will last for a few seconds, and yes it will burn her entire body, but not for very long. Her regeneration doesn't begin until after she's taken damage anyway, so she won't have to worry about her body being continually burned. And she won't stay ablaze after being hit, as I've proven already.



Jad said:


> You used the worst examples to make your point.
> 
> The first example, he was lighting the wood on top of them on fire, he wasn't aiming to hit them. He was teasing them, exhausting them. The heat from the wood burning around them would only serve to weaken them.



I implore you to prove this. His katon was absolutely gargantuan, being much, _much_ larger than the Susano'o formed around Madara, which was already significantly larger than him or the Kage. It would be almost impossible not to hit them with an attack so large. He fired the flames at them with the intention to burn.



> Let's put it this way, Tsunade is not going to get a second hit in on Madara because Kishi made it clear as daylight that it took a cultimation of the Kage's to land a hit. HE LET her hit her the first time, which yes, will probably happen again, but he sure as hell wasn't going to let her hit the second time. Just so happens 4 Kages working together can get another hit in...That's the struggle they had, that's why it was such a hard battle. I mean the fasted moving object, Ei and Onoki, couldn't get two hits on panel in consecutive shots from what I remember.



The hits Tsunade landed were done without her having to dodge/tank anything, as you said, it was because of the other Kage that she was able to land hits so easily. However, that doesn't mean she can't land hits on her own with difficulty.




> How was he suppose to create a clone and jump out when he was already mostly covered by sand? The entire scenario reflected how Hashirama  (the real one) hid underground, and his clone took the fall. That's how clone feinting works. Why in the hell would the REAL Madara engange Tsunade in Taijutsu without Sasunoo? Don't you think that is a little suspicious? Considering he ALWAYS uses it when engaging in battle. Madara is not that dumb to get himself caught in a sealing technique THAT quickly only to chance it by swapping himself out with a clone at the last second, when it seems the more reasonable, understandable, and undeniable method was to fake a clone in that fight...



Characters create bunshins/substitutions and appear somewhere else all the time without being seen to move on panel, he just probably shunshin'd quickly before he was bound. And I guess the real Madara would engage her in taijutsu because he's a lot faster than her and has a sharingan, though it wasn't him who engaged her, it was the reverse. I'm assuming [albeit on logical grounds] that he didn't activate his Susano'o because she'd already destroyed it, and he wanted to take a different approach to combat. Madara also wasn't aware that they possessed a sealing technique, for all he knew Tsunade punching him was pointless since he could just regenerate. He then saw that they could seal him inside sand, and swapped out with a bunshin to trick them into thinking they'd caught him.

The point still stands that when he was punched, he didn't appear to be made out of wood, he was composed of ash.​​


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