# Mafia Section Rules [updated]



## Atlantic Storm (Sep 19, 2013)

*Rules of the Mafia Section*

_Updated as of 25th of September, 2013._​ 
*I. Introduction 
II. Rules*A. Thread Rules
B. Game Rules
​*III. Stickies and References*A. Schedule
B. The Mafia Warehouse
C. Links and Guides
​*IV. Conclusion*

______________________​ 
*I. Introduction*

The mafia section is a section dedicated to mafia games and related activities. The section will be the home to mafia games, community events, and helpful threads to help others jump into being a part of the fun.

Please read and make sure you understand the rules below before you post Mafia subsection. If anything is unclear, or if you have  any other issues or queries, feel free to send a private message to  any   of our section moderators.

______________________​
*II. Rules* 

*A. Thread Rules**1.* Please make sure to schedule your thread.
*2.* Any last minute changes should be approved by a section mod.
*3.* Limit of four big games.

​______________________​ 

*1. Please make sure to schedule your thread.*This is to avoid any potential chaos with thread creation or conflicting sign-up times between game hosts. It just makes things a bit more streamlined and organized, so we ask that you schedule your game in  thread first. Any sign-up threads that go up which haven't gone through proper scheduling will be locked.
​*2. Any last minute changes should be approved by a section mod. *For the sake of efficiency, any changes made within two months of the game are considered last minute, and you will need to consult a section moderator before making them. 
​*3. Limit of four big games.
*Games are time consuming, and it can be hard to keep track of them if you're in a whole bunch of different ones. To keep you from possibly signing up for too many games, which can cause in-game performance issues, we've decided to implement this limit. There can only be four big games open at any one time. 

______________________​ ​*B. Game-Rules**1*. Don't cheat.
*2.* Keep active!
*3.* Try to be respectful.
*4.* Regarding post-death discussion...
​______________________
​ *1. Don't cheat.*What constitutes as cheating? Unless you have a special kind of role, do not communicate with other players outside the game when you're not supposed to. Another big no-no is screen-capping your your role and showing it to people. Anybody caught doing either of these will receive a section ban.
​*2. Keep active!*Please keep active in what ever game(s) you're in. We know that it can be difficult sometimes, but suddenly going inactive in a game you've signed up in is detrimental to the game and insulting to the person running the game. If this becomes a consistent issue, you will be given a warning. If it persists, then you will be excluded from future games for a period of time. 
​ *3. At least try to be respectful.*Given the nature of the game, it's understandable if this isn't completely possible, but we ask that you don't go over the top with flaming or let it get too out of hand. If this happens, a section mod will give a warning in the thread. Should it persist, then full forum bans will start being issued.
​*4. Regarding post-death discussion...*
Don't do it. It's really that simple. You have the standard one or two (pushing it) posts after dying in the game, but after that, please don't continue posting in the game thread. The Convo thread or Fanclub can be used to talk about the game after you die, with the exception of comments that may impact the game. This includes stuff like roles, abilities and observations you may have made but didn't comment on before. Section bans will be issued if you're caught doing this.
​*4. Regarding chocolate milk...*
Don't talk shit about chocolate milk. You will be section banned.

______________________​*III. Stickies and References
**A. *
*B.* 
*C.* ​


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## FLORIDA MAN (Sep 21, 2013)

Regarding section B, article 2 - can we start a list of modkilled players perhaps?
That way problem people can be kept from demoralizing mods, those poor saps.


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## Nois (Sep 21, 2013)

WAD said:


> Regarding section B, article 2 - can we start a list of modkilled players perhaps?
> That way problem people can be kept from demoralizing mods, those poor saps.



I think it would be best if the individual hosts kept a record of those in their games. We could keep track of people's performance that way and be vigil about potential inactivity?


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Sep 29, 2013)

I disagree with anything that involves mods having any kind influence whatsoever on our games and this section in general, aside from making sure that the forum rules are followed.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 29, 2013)

Absolute Justice said:


> I disagree with anything that involves mods having any kind influence whatsoever on our games and this section in general, aside from making sure that the forum rules are followed.



I use my disagreement card to veto your disagreement.


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## tgm2x (Sep 29, 2013)

Too many pointless limitations. Sounds like go play somewhere else.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 29, 2013)

A lot of these rules are just stuff that was already a rule of thumb in games. Do you have any suggestions for possible improvements or anything?


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## tgm2x (Sep 29, 2013)

Yeah host as many mafias as you want and let hosts write the rules for their games

And punish mods who don't follow their own rules, that's it pretty much


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 29, 2013)

tgm2x said:


> Yeah host as many mafias as you want and let hosts write the rules for their games




Nothing is stopping hosts from making house rules in their games. The rules detailed in this thread are meant to act as general guidelines that encompass all games and the entire section. 



> And punish mods who don't follow their own rules, that's it pretty much



We already do that.


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## tgm2x (Sep 29, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Nothing is stopping hosts from making house rules in their games. The rules detailed in this thread are meant to act as general guidelines that encompass all games and the entire section.


But host may want players to PM each other for some reason or do any other action opposite to those rules therefore making the rules not so general.
Also the most disturbing line is about schedule since it pretty much only makes us miss a lot of good games.


Atlantic Storm said:


> We already do that.


How?


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 29, 2013)

tgm2x said:


> But host may want players to PM each other for some reason or do any other action opposite to those rules therefore making the rules not so general.



The rules say not to communicate with players when you're not supposed to. If outer-game communication is allowed by the hosts, then obviously that's fine. 



> Also the most disturbing line is about schedule since it pretty much only makes us miss a lot of good games.]



That's sort of to avoid the section getting too messy.



> How?



What do you mean how? We haven't had a situation arise where it's become necessary yet.


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Sep 29, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I use my disagreement card to veto your disagreement.


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## FLORIDA MAN (Sep 29, 2013)

Can you maybe address the first reply in the the thread based Goose?
I feel that list should be universal, not host-specific, to keep activity from being loose.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 29, 2013)

WAD said:


> Regarding section B, article 2 - can we start a list of modkilled players perhaps?
> That way problem people can be kept from demoralizing mods, those poor saps.



I considered and am planning on starting a list of modkilled players/black marks, but at the moment it's a bit too ambitious considering my school schedule.


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## tgm2x (Sep 29, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> The rules say not to communicate with players when you're not supposed to. If outer-game communication is allowed by the hosts, then obviously that's fine.


So well appointed host rules about communication make that part waste of space pretty much.


Atlantic Storm said:


> That's sort of to avoid the section getting too messy.


Not too many users want to host games actually and such rules only scare not just hosts but potential mafia players who will not start playing just because there is no proper themed game for them.



Atlantic Storm said:


> What do you mean how? We haven't had a situation arise where it's become necessary yet.


So if a host removes a player from the game for a reason not mentioned in the rules it's not such situation?


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## FLORIDA MAN (Sep 29, 2013)

We can just use this or one of the other threads for hosts to submit these reports.
Then we can compile/tally the lists and create a blacklist or penalty system of sorts.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 29, 2013)

tgm2x said:


> So well appointed host rules about communication make that part waste of space pretty much.



Not necessarily, as most games tend to not allow communication regarding the game outside of the actual thread. 



> Not too many users want to host games actually and such rules only scare not just hosts but potential mafia players who will not start playing just because there is no proper themed game for them.



I'm interested in why you think this would discourage hosts from starting games. 

Also, I think you're misunderstanding the rule slightly. The section isn't limited to four games overall, just four 'big' games.



> So if a host removes a player from the game for a reason not mentioned in the rules it's not such situation?



How do you mean?


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## Tiger (Sep 29, 2013)

tgm2x said:


> Too many pointless limitations. Sounds like go play somewhere else.



Doesn't make me feel that way, none of these rules are unreasonable are hard to follow in any way, so if you feel like it's a problem for you - maybe you should?

As for the modkill/black list idea, we can just start now, when you host a game and have issues with players - post those concerns. We don't need to back-log and comb through old games.


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## tgm2x (Sep 29, 2013)

Also I suggest to add a rule which may replace most of the other rules.

Rule #1 for hosts: Make your rules clear.
Which includes
-Write clerly which types of communications are allowed;
-Appoint your phase schedule;
-Write what kind of role revealing is allowed;
-Try to describe any possible usage of abilities if your games contain such.
And so on.


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## tgm2x (Sep 29, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Not necessarily, as most games tend to not allow communication regarding the game outside of the actual thread.


Just because there is trend at the moment but section rules must be universal and unquestionable.


Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm interested in why you think this would discourage hosts from starting games.
> 
> Also, I think you're misunderstanding the rule slightly. The section isn't limited to four games overall, just four 'big' games.



Because not every potential host has a year or so to wait to host a game and so are a lot of players.

But tastes are different, some players may dislike some game themes, some players may dislike some hosts, in other words why should anyone wait for the game they want if nothing apart from that rule makes that game hard to appear?



Atlantic Storm said:


> How do you mean?


Like host modkills player for communication abuse while there were no rules about communications.


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## tgm2x (Sep 29, 2013)

Law said:


> Doesn't make me feel that way, none of these rules are unreasonable are hard to follow in any way, so if you feel like it's a problem for you - maybe you should?
> 
> As for the modkill/black list idea, we can just start now, when you host a game and have issues with players - post those concerns. We don't need to back-log and comb through old games.



Rules must be appropriate from different perspectives to cause no problems to any kind of audience.

Which is useful tool for hosts but may be a problem for accursed players since they may easily lose access to the mafia games but not so easily recover it.


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## Tiger (Sep 29, 2013)

If someone has the decency to say "I'm sorry, I thought I'd be able to play, but I can't.", they are not going to be barred from games the same way someone who just no-shows without a word of warning or lament.

And if those are the "accursed" players you speak of, and making a community list of them and their behavior hurts their ability to join games...

...


_Good._


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## SinRaven (Sep 30, 2013)

tgm2x, regarding the limitations of games I'd like to point you towards . Every complaint has pretty much been discussed there. Conclusion? Nothing wrong with the current way of doing things. Mods only can request one game at a time, though, to allow other mods to host in time as well.

And regarding the rules, this is a good thing. Recently Oceanus got section banned for posting game-related information during the night and also whilst dead. This can be considered cheating and, as a frequent host myself, I don't think it's a good idea to let cheaters go unpunished (you yourself are a valuable example of that, aren't you tgm2x?). Instead of having hosts agree to ban those people from all games, a section ban is the best idea. The culprit probably would've learned his lesson afterwards.

Regarding my previous example I would also want to clear a rumor from the world: It is not Nitty that was unjustifiably banned for nightposting, it was Oceanus regarding previous reasons. Due to some circumstances, some people were lead to believe it was Nitty. This is untrue. Don't blame the mods for your own naivety.


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## tgm2x (Sep 30, 2013)

Space said:


> tgm2x, regarding the limitations of games I'd like to point you towards . Every complaint has pretty much been discussed there. Conclusion? Nothing wrong with the current way of doing things. Mods only can request one game at a time, though, to allow other mods to host in time as well.
> 
> And regarding the rules, this is a good thing. Recently Oceanus got section banned for posting game-related information during the night and also whilst dead. This can be considered cheating and, as a frequent host myself, I don't think it's a good idea to let cheaters go unpunished (you yourself are a valuable example of that, aren't you tgm2x?). Instead of having hosts agree to ban those people from all games, a section ban is the best idea. The culprit probably would've learned his lesson afterwards.
> 
> Regarding my previous example I would also want to clear a rumor from the world: It is not Nitty that was unjustifiably banned for nightposting, it was Oceanus regarding previous reasons. Due to some circumstances, some people were lead to believe it was Nitty. This is untrue. Don't blame the mods for your own naivety.


Do you realise that casual players don't want to discuss all these rules and just want to play?
Conclusion: try different perspective.
My character was modkilled for a reason not listed in the game rules - fact. Host remained unpunished and I don't complain really but if so then make the system flexible enough to not to make such cases global issue. 
In other words section ban shouldn't appear just because some random host/player said that someone did something bad. No host can really prove it among the other things.


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## KamiKazi (Sep 30, 2013)

tgm2x said:


> In other words section ban shouldn't appear just because some random host/player said that someone did something bad.



No ban appears just because someone said someone did something. We look into everything. _Everything_.

Basically, we're not assholes and as long as someone plays the games fairly they should be in the clear for the most part. The original version of the rules just said "Don't be a dick" actually but that didn't get cleared with the higher ups.


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## tgm2x (Sep 30, 2013)

KamiKazi said:


> No ban appears just because someone said someone did something. We look into everything. _Everything_.
> 
> Basically, we're not assholes and as long as someone plays the games fairly they should be in the clear for the most part. The original version of the rules just said "Don't be a dick" actually but that didn't get cleared with the higher ups.



Well, it sounds pretty scary as it written in the rules at the moment since it pretty much promises section ban for any questionable situation. It is ok if it's not instantly section ban but a warning or section block for a certain period of time(short at first but increases every time with a certain refreshment time).


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## SinRaven (Sep 30, 2013)

I don't see exactly why you're so against this, tgm2x.

Do you _want _people to cheat or inactifag? Because neither hosts nor players actually want people do that. Before these rules, there was no real way for us to enforce that and thus inactifags and cheaters could continue playing with nobody being really happy with them being able to play. This is both to punish them and make them learn their lessons.

Of course, as a person who cheated in the past, you'd be against any rules right? Is that it?


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 30, 2013)

Let's keep this civil, gentleman. I kept this thread unlocked for a reason, don't make me regret it.


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## tgm2x (Sep 30, 2013)

Space said:


> I don't see exactly why you're so against this, tgm2x.
> 
> Do you _want _people to cheat or inactifag? Because neither hosts nor players actually want people do that. Before these rules, there was no real way for us to enforce that and thus inactifags and cheaters could continue playing with nobody being really happy with them being able to play. This is both to punish them and make them learn their lessons.
> 
> Of course, as a person who cheated in the past, you'd be against any rules right? Is that it?



You illustrate the exact problems I'm appointing in my previous posts: lack of rule making hosts write good detailed rules for each their game and ambiguity of global rules of the section.

As a person who broken non-existant rule? Is that the definition of cheater nowadays? You may easily notice my position on the matter of rules in my posts. Rules shouldn't have tons of meanings any host or player will treat the way they want.

Only rules that may be applied to all the games unquestionably must be global(good examples: anti-flame rule, follow the game rules and it doesn't matter if you are host or player and so on).
On the other hand each game must contain straight unquestionable rules as well but the ones which concern only that exact game.


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## Vermin (Sep 30, 2013)

i didn't even know we had rules


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## tgm2x (Sep 30, 2013)

zyken said:


> i didn't even know we had rules



Good that you visited us since some people seem to not to believe in casual players


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## SinRaven (Sep 30, 2013)

tgm2x said:


> You illustrate the exact problems I'm appointing in my previous posts: lack of rule making hosts write good detailed rules for each their game and ambiguity of global rules of the section.


You don't know how much I hate this comment right now, because I really do. There are a lot of hosts that put extreme effort in writing their opening posts, where the rules are as well. Hosts like Olivia, Zyken and myself have hosted games with expensive rules. Laix too, and it was his game where you cheated, if I'm correct. So don't give me this bullshit, the rules are very clear.
These rules and the mods are just there to enforce them. Because even though we have rules in our games as hosts, we still are normal forum members and thus we are powerless.



> As a person who broken non-existant rule? Is that the definition of cheater nowadays? You may easily notice my position on the matter of rules in my posts. Rules shouldn't have tons of meanings any host or player will treat the way they want.
> 
> Only rules that may be applied to all the games unquestionably must be global(good examples: anti-flame rule, follow the game rules and it doesn't matter if you are host or player and so on).
> On the other hand each game must contain straight unquestionable rules as well but the ones which concern only that exact game.


I believe you communicated outside of the game thread, right? That is first of all a very basic rule (so basic that it is here in the rules as well). Laix might've not put it in the OP (idk, I will check soon), but it's pretty standard that you shouldn't do such a thing. You have QT's and you have a thread, leave it at that unless stated otherwise.

All the rules here are very basic ones that are applied to every game. And still, like if you break one of these rules in a certain game, but the mod doesn't really care about that then it's simple: he won't report you. So the standard of mods having their own take on the rules still stands.


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## tgm2x (Sep 30, 2013)

Haters gonna hate

There is no such thing as basic rules. You either are writing rules for every game situation or do not complain that players act like you didn't intend them to. It's that simple and it's based on the definition of the game itself since any game itself is a set of rules.


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## Azeruth (Sep 30, 2013)

tgm2x said:


> As a person who broken non-existant rule? Is that the definition of cheater nowadays?



You mean this rule?



Laix said:


> Masons and factions will communicate through the Quick Topics provided as so the *[Moderator]* can moderate.


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## SinRaven (Sep 30, 2013)

tgm2x said:


> Haters gonna hate
> 
> There is no such thing as basic rules. You either are writing rules for every game situation or do not complain that players act like you didn't intend them to. It's that simple and it's based on the definition of the game itself since any game itself is a set of rules.



Apparently, there is such a thing as basic rules. This thread provides them. It makes it easier for mods so they don't have to make a tl;dr rule list nobody reads anyway and they can just refer to this thread.

They can still create their own rules outside of that or note that one or two of these rules here don't apply for them.

I don't understand your problem with these rules. These rules are there to make sure the games run smoothly and fair. Don't you want that? Because as long as you want that, you would follow them and there wouldn't be a problem.

Like I said before: It's like you want cheaters and inactifags in the community.


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## tgm2x (Sep 30, 2013)

Azeruth said:


> You mean this rule?



No, I don't mean this rule because it doesn't forbid anything there.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 30, 2013)

tgm2x said:


> Haters gonna hate
> 
> There is no such thing as basic rules. You either are writing rules for every game situation or do not complain that players act like you didn't intend them to. It's that simple and it's based on the definition of the game itself since any game itself is a set of rules.


The title of your PM(BURN AFTER READING or something along those lines) made it quite clear that you understood that what you were doing was against the rules, so please stop acting as if you were unaware. I thought you deserved a second chance but you've decided to blow it it seems.


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## tgm2x (Sep 30, 2013)

Space said:


> Apparently, there is such a thing as basic rules. This thread provides them. It makes it easier for mods so they don't have to make a tl;dr rule list nobody reads anyway and they can just refer to this thread.
> 
> They can still create their own rules outside of that or note that one or two of these rules here don't apply for them.
> 
> ...



It's mods basic work to make proper rules to leave no questions during the game and make players know what are they playing. Nobody reads anything by your logic so let's just remove all rules and do anything host's left toe finger wants and pretend it to be a good game?

Basic rules are forum rules, apart from that there may be instructions how the OP of the game should look, some layout, but the rules of the section at the moment are supposed to be edited each game which makes them nothing like basic.

I want friendly community meeting new players with some better attitude than calling them dupes and banning for any accident.


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## FLORIDA MAN (Sep 30, 2013)

This is really dumb.
My brains going numb.


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## tgm2x (Sep 30, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> The title of your PM(BURN AFTER READING or something along those lines) made it quite clear that you understood that what you were doing was against the rules, so please stop acting as if you were unaware. I thought you deserved a second chance but you've decided to blow it it seems.



I don't mind reviewing the case with the links/screenshots/any other clues you have and quotes from rules prooving such activities to be illegal.
Stop speaking of chances, you missed your chance to be cooperative player long ago.

Also this is not proper place for such topic since we are discussing global rules here. So be polite and feel free to discuss anything on the matter in VM/PM/Convo thread or any appropriate thread.


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## SinRaven (Sep 30, 2013)

Oh wow, now I'm really sure tgm2x is trolling.

Wish he could still be section banned for his past crime.


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## tgm2x (Sep 30, 2013)

Unlike some other posters' my every post contains constructive suggestions and reasoning.
So I suggest either to start bringing well argumented suggestions as well or not to fill the thread with fluff posts.


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## SinRaven (Sep 30, 2013)

'Constructive'.

You're just bashing against everything I or anyone who disagrees with you says. You're not giving constructive criticism at all. You're basically saying "I disagree with the system and y'all should agree with me."

So yes, you're trolling.


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## tgm2x (Sep 30, 2013)

At the moment I'm disagreeing with one person since there are not many players who care about this thread. I'm appointing pros and cons of the rules being written different ways.
Check the definition of trolling. I don't even get provoked by obvious flamebaiting a few posts ago.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 30, 2013)

tgm2x said:


> I don't mind reviewing the case with the links/screenshots/any other clues you have and quotes from rules prooving such activities to be illegal.



Reviewing the case? I'm not trying to get you banned here, just telling people the truth of what happened in case anyone is naive enough to believe your lies.



> Stop speaking of chances, you missed your chance to be cooperative player long ago.


I apologize for not condoning cheating


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## tgm2x (Sep 30, 2013)

Truth for one may be a lie for another. You only are strengthening my point about the rules need to be unambiguous and well formed for each game.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 30, 2013)

As interesting as this is, can we shift the topic from turning into TAMNI: The After-Burn?


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## tgm2x (Sep 30, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> As interesting as this is, can we shift the topic from turning into TAMNI: The After-Burn?



Good point.

To make a long story short I could help to make a model of basic mafia game rules including different cases if you are interested. Such thing would help hosts to have OP with clear rules without much effort. Also having a standart would prevent section from having ambiguous rules.


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## Immortal (Sep 30, 2013)

WAD said:


> We can just use this or one of the other threads for hosts to submit these reports.
> Then we can compile/tally the lists and create a blacklist or penalty system of sorts.



My only input on this is that I think we should start with a clean slate and not include any of the modkills from before this section was made. However I do strongly support having a list of modkills and letting game hosts decide whether or not they'll allow a player with X-amount of marks.


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## FLORIDA MAN (Sep 30, 2013)

Obviously I think we should observe a statute of limitations.
I don't know where I had given any other indications.


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## tgm2x (Sep 30, 2013)

Pretty raw model, feel free to add/edit stuff there but it would be nice of final version of the model would become the beginning of every mafia game.

*GAME DESCRIPTION*

X themed mafia game blah blah blah.
*
BASIC GAME RULES*

*Role-revealing:*
Allowed/Disallowed/Slightly hints my be posted;
Inappropriate revealing will cause nothing/warning/modkill.

*Communication:*
Any type is allowed/Only thread and quicktopics;
Inappropriate use of communications will cause nothing/warning/modkill;
X posts are allowed during night phase;
X posts are allowed after player's character death;
Inappropriate amount of posts during night phase will cause nothing/warning/modkill.

*Phases:*
Day phase begins at HH:MM and ends at HH:MM;
Night phase begins at HH:MM and ends at HH:MM.

*Actions:*
Are being processed once the host receives them/at the same time.

*Required activity:*
Each player must post X amount of posts per day phase, must/must not vote, must/must not send actions each circle/phase if a player have such;
Lack of activity will cause nothing/warning/modkill.

*How does the game's vote system work:*
Describe the format of voting. Example: type *[Vote lynch "Player name"]* to vote first time, *[Change vote lynch "Player name"]* to change your vote and *[Unvote]* to cancel your vote. 
Lack of vote will cause nothing/self-vote/modkill.
*
ADDITIONAL GAME RULES*

Post any additional rules here.


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## SinRaven (Sep 30, 2013)

You're pretty much underestimating each and every host, tgm2x. Hosts know how to implement rules and those who actually like doing such an expansive list (such as myself) like to do it themselves, while this thread is there for those who can't be bothered for it. They simply need to put 'standard rules apply minus this or plus that'. 
Let this be, there's no need to force such a list of rules to hosts. This thread is enough.


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## tgm2x (Oct 1, 2013)

If you like confusion of course there is no need to use such form but if you want a game with unquestionable rules and no problematic situations you'd rather use something like that plus quote a rule deciding what to do in any situation questionable for for any player.


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## Olivia (Oct 1, 2013)

Just saying tgm, unless specifically stated otherwise for specific factions, it's globally known that you are not allowed to contact other members outside of a game thread.

Along that note, 'ignorance of the law' is not an excuse. Yes you broke the rules, so you deserved to be modkilled in that game, doesn't mean you deserve to be eternally punished. However, blowing things out of proportion after you broke the rules isn't going to help.

Just my two cents.


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## Vermin (Oct 1, 2013)

tgm2x said:


> Pretty raw model, feel free to add/edit stuff there but it would be nice of final version of the model would become the beginning of every mafia game.
> 
> *GAME DESCRIPTION*
> 
> ...


that rule format looks ugly as hell


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## tgm2x (Oct 1, 2013)

Olivia said:


> Just saying tgm, unless specifically stated otherwise for specific factions, it's globally known that you are not allowed to contact other members outside of a game thread.
> 
> Along that note, 'ignorance of the law' is not an excuse. Yes you broke the rules, so you deserved to be modkilled in that game, doesn't mean you deserve to be eternally punished. However, blowing things out of proportion after you broke the rules isn't going to help.
> 
> Just my two cents.



There is no such thing as globally known in custom games. Either there is rule or there isn't. 'Ignorance of the law' is not an excuse indeed, adjust your rules next time but don't bother people with the rules you didn't care to write. Law is written, law is not hypothetical thing, also it's formed the way least possible question may be left about how doest it work.


zyken said:


> that rule format looks ugly as hell



You may color it pink if you want I cared about functionality


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## Olivia (Oct 1, 2013)

Sorry, but that isn't the case. This website is what this mafia community referred to the general rules as. 

(In fact, many hosts even place this link into their sign-up threads for users to look at)

This is what it says in the FAQ:



> *Q:* Can I talk to someone at night or outside of the thread?
> *A:* It is generally against the rules to discuss anything with anyone at night unless you are in the Mafia. It is also usually against the rules to contact someone during the day privately. Check with the Moderator's posted rules, or ask the Moderator.


While Laix's rules never said that you couldn't message someone out of the thread, you should have assumed that since there was a specific rule that allowed _certain_ people (whose role was specific to the condition) that everyone else didn't have the same privilege. Along with that, you should have asked Laix before doing so. (In fact, any thing said outside of the game should be accessible to the game mod regardless)

You broke a rule, perhaps it was a mistake, but it's not like you're being banned over it. You really didn't need to blow this out of proportion.


----------



## tgm2x (Oct 1, 2013)

Olivia said:


> Sorry, but that isn't the case. *This website* is what this *mafia community referred* to the general rules.
> 
> This is what it says in the FAQ:
> 
> ...



*Bolded* what player isn't supposed to do. All those details should be written in game rules not somewhere outside.
Marked red contradiction.


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## Olivia (Oct 1, 2013)

So you shouldn't have asked for clarification? The rule stated that only certain factions can communicate, not that all players can. If you aren't reading what's being implied then that's plainly your fault. 

Besides, those are the basic mafia rules which NF uses. They don't need to be posted on NF for them not to be true. They are written down, and they are what many hosts follow.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Oct 1, 2013)

The rule broken was not him messaging me outside the thread, though some mods might consider masons/mafia communicating via PMs against the rules(I don't). What was cheating and what he was fully aware was cheating was reading a QT that wasn't meant for his eyes then sending me info from it.


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## tgm2x (Oct 1, 2013)

Olivia said:


> So you shouldn't have asked for clarification? The rule stated that only certain factions can communicate, not that all players can. If you aren't reading what's being implied then that's plainly your fault.
> 
> Besides, those are the basic mafia rules which NF uses. They don't need to be posted on NF for them not to be true. They are written down, and they are what many hosts follow.



Yeah shouldn't, that's the point of rules - to leave no questions but pure gameplay And didn't want to since my question about ability mechanics gave the host an idea to nerf several abilities in that exact game which was ridiculous since such things shouldn't be changed during the game. Do you read what are you writing? I'm not supposed to dig what kind of implications could something have in host's mind. Write rules the way they have no several meanings.

Basic mafia rules are far from what happens on NF. They were invented a bit earlier than modern computers.


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## Olivia (Oct 1, 2013)

You guys were part of the same mafia?

I knew he messaged you, and I knew he read the QT, I just didn't know you were part of the same mafia. Regardless, by pming it, it was obvious that tgm didn't want Laix to see, since he didn't simply post it in the QT. I mean, in this instance I don't see how there's any room for discussion. Regardless, all content is supposed to be monitored by the game host, and that should be an obvious rule of thumb for very obvious reasons.


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## tgm2x (Oct 1, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> The rule broken was not him messaging me outside the thread, though some mods might consider masons/mafia communicating via PMs against the rules(I don't). What was cheating and what he was fully aware was cheating was reading a QT that wasn't meant for his eyes then sending me info from it.



Nice assumtion there Law doesn't work on assumptions though. Also it seems like if someone did something like that it would be legal since there was no rule on the matter.


Olivia said:


> You guys were part of the same mafia?
> 
> I knew he messaged you, and I knew he read the QT, I just didn't know you were part of the same mafia. Regardless, by pming it, it was obvious that tgm didn't want Laix to see, since he didn't simply post it in the QT. I mean, in this instance I don't see how there's any room for discussion. Regardless, all content is supposed to be monitored by the game host, and that should be an obvious rule of thumb for very obvious reasons.


Regardless of that after the nerf of suggestive magic I didn't want Laix to see any of our strategic discussions I kept posting in QT.

Speaking of which another on-topic suggestion: 
There should be a rule preventing hosts from editing basic game elements after the roles are sent.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Oct 1, 2013)

There is no assumption. "BURN AFTER READING" leaves no room for alternate interpretation. Keep digging yourself a deeper hole though.


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## Olivia (Oct 1, 2013)

tgm2x said:


> Nice assumtion there Law doesn't work on assumptions though. Also it seems like if someone did something like that it would be legal since there was no rule on the matter.
> 
> Regardless of that after the nerf of suggestive magic* I didn't want Laix to see any of our strategic discussions I kept posting in QT.*
> Speaking of which another on-topic suggestion:
> There should be a rule preventing hosts from editing game after the roles are sent



He's the game mod, he has every right to see anything and everything which happens in the game. Tough luck if you don't want that to happen.

However the following I can agree with (in some respects).


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## Immortal (Oct 1, 2013)

For what its worth we may as well add "don't talk about the game anywhere other than the game thread" to this list of rules, if it isn't there already.


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## Vermin (Oct 1, 2013)

> There should be a rule preventing hosts from editing game after the roles are sent



no **


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## tgm2x (Oct 1, 2013)

And another rule that if targets of an ability are not specified it may be used on anyone though that's more like in-game rule until the form I suggested is required in every game it could be placed here


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## tgm2x (Oct 1, 2013)

zyken said:


> no **



Are you appointing that it's ok that players sign up for one game just to play another?


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## FLORIDA MAN (Oct 1, 2013)

So I'm upset. Really upset. So much so once again I will drop my rhyme scheme to make this post.

When people go inactive and get themselves modkilled, there's no better way to disappoint a mod. Barring extreme emergencies that remove you from being online at all, what is two fucking minutes out of your day, and let's face it, NF is not known for having a population of doctors and lawyers, to show some god damn consideration for other people and their time?

Regrettably, I add the first two names to the modkill list for my Vanilla I game:

*Mitsuru
Laix*

They will not be playing in any of my future games without at least a damn paragraph of an apology for pissing on me.


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## Vermin (Oct 1, 2013)

mafia is going to shit tbh


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## FLORIDA MAN (Oct 1, 2013)

Yeah well, its a constant and never-ending cycle. Just that time of the year.
Someone will suggest it's dead, then activity will renew and people will cheer.


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## Vermin (Oct 2, 2013)

i can think of a few reasons why activity is going down
and none of them have anything to do with real life


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## Olivia (Oct 2, 2013)

On the contrary,  as peoples life gets busier their ability to play mafia gets lowered. It's the main reason why activity usually always booms during the summer when there's less to stress about, and you're able to take it easy. However, when the majority of us are in school (and in fact, at least two of us are teachers) our schedules become tightened, and we have less time and more stress on our plate. That dissolves into stupid arguments and less sportsman ship, along with other things.

So while the direct cause wouldn't be real life, it definitely has an important play on things in the background.


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## Vermin (Oct 2, 2013)

i don't what to have to be THAT GUY, but fuck it

mafia schedule, committees, modkill list

i think all of it is fucking stupid 

i had much more fun when mafia was a simple internet game not a fucking economic class

if you want me to elaborate, i will gladly do so via pms/vms

this thread has been derailed enough as it is


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Oct 2, 2013)

zyken said:


> mafia is going to shit tbh


It seems its time to call in the A team once again. Olivia and Laix, lets do this


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## Belphegoob (Oct 2, 2013)

Government shutdown, no more funding for mafia ):


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## Laix (Oct 2, 2013)

manga mashup is still needing 20 something signups so no saving-the-day from me


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## Olivia (Oct 2, 2013)

In that aspect I have no comment, especially since I coasted off of Laix's success, rather than generating better activity.


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## Magician (Oct 2, 2013)

zyken said:


> i don't what to have to be THAT GUY, but fuck it
> 
> mafia schedule, committees, modkill list
> 
> ...



^This, so much this.

Take all my reps.


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## Laix (Oct 2, 2013)

zyken said:


> i don't what to have to be THAT GUY, but fuck it
> 
> mafia schedule, committees, modkill list
> 
> ...



just saw this

my last post on this topic but well said and i agree 1000%. it's how i've felt for a while but i thought it would be a black sheep saying so swayed from doing it


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## Thomas Edison (Oct 2, 2013)

There's definitely a balancing act. You want to uphold some sort of standard for the serious players, but you don't want to scare off the casual players. Be stern when it's called for and forgiving when people aren't complete dicks but make honest mistakes. Shit happens. Sometimes life gets in the way. The point is to have fun, right? 

For scheduling, something simple like a  is fine, you guys have a schedule thread which does the same thing. Just update the OP so it's a useful reference. As a new member here, it's hard to keep track of what's going on.


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## Olivia (Oct 2, 2013)

While I certainty don't want to derail the thread, these are my comments on the aforementioned. 

The schedule thread was originally put in place because people felt that the games they were planning were being over shined because others brought up a new idea. To organize those ideas better, a schedule thread was put into place. Originally, I believe it was simply to have stated what games were being made and a link to the sign ups, however it quickly changed into a 'schedule format'. Now with the new subsection the schedule is being enforced, versus being a useful tool to see what games are being planned.

The committee was formed after Hiruzen was basically thrown out of his seat in planning the Mafia Awards. Deserving or not, to counter act the original methods put in place, a large majority of the fan club decided to put together a committee so it eliminates a large biasness which may result from a single host.

Modkill list was recently asked for simply as a tool for hosts. No one needs to follow it if they don't want to. Nevertheless, some mods may find the list useful so they avoid having cheaters/people who are inactive on a constant basis, which will make their game run smoother.

Of course as projects get put in place, inherent flaws are noticed, and the major flaw with these systems are that it makes everything too regulated. However, I personally think it's a necessary evil, as this community needed some real organization.


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## Mist Puppet (Oct 2, 2013)

I don't think talk of a "modkill list" would be derailing the thread, considering one of the rules is



> 2. Keep active!
> 
> Please keep active in what ever game(s) you're in. We know that it can be difficult sometimes, but suddenly going inactive in a game you've signed up in is detrimental to the game and insulting to the person running the game. If this becomes a consistent issue, you will be given a warning. If it persists, then you will be excluded from future games for a period of time.



and it would be addressing that. zyken touches upon it but it seems her complaints are more about the general state of mafia as a whole.

Since I'm here, I'll go ahead and say that the above rule is good enough. Only serial modkillers should be put on a list (assuming an official list is ever made), but the list itself should only ever be used as a reference. Mods can look at it, and judge for themselves whether they want them in their game or not.

Cheaters don't need a list since they'll just be section banned for X amount of time anyways.

EDIT: To define what a "serial modkiller" is, it would be someone who actively signs up for multiple games, and then gets modkilled. 

If you get modkilled once, whatever. Slap on the wrist if you were just being an ass, a wave if something had come up. No need for punishment either way. 

But if you're getting modkilled in about 3 straight games you've signed up for (maybe over the course of a month), then youuuuuuuuuu might be a serial modkiller.


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## KamiKazi (Oct 2, 2013)

Keep talk of specific instances out of the thread please and thank you. If you have a complaint bring it to one of the section mods, if you have a prior disagreement take it to PMs/VMs and talk it out there, but this thread isn't the place to discuss it.



Not a fan of a modkill list. A rule is already in place and a list calling people out seems questionable. Like MP said, hosts can judge for themselves. 



zyken said:


> i don't what to have to be THAT GUY, but fuck it
> 
> mafia schedule, committees, modkill list
> 
> ...





♦Young Master♦ said:


> ^This, so much this.
> 
> Take all my reps.





Laix said:


> just saw this
> 
> my last post on this topic but well said and i agree 1000%. it's how i've felt for a while but i thought it would be a black sheep saying so swayed from doing it



Hit me with a PM elaborating if you got 'em.


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## tgm2x (Oct 2, 2013)

WAD said:


> NF is not known for having a population of doctors and lawyers, to show some god damn consideration for other people and their time?





zyken said:


> i don't what to have to be THAT GUY, but fuck it
> 
> mafia schedule, committees, modkill list
> 
> ...



That's why I'm saying that all that's necessary for good games is a standart form of rules for each game and nothing more. Player comes, reads rules, plays, that simple and everyone is happy. Host has a list to refer why did any action occur while player knows what player is playing without searching the whole internet.


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## Jeroen (Oct 2, 2013)

tgm2x said:


> *reads rules*



Since when do people read the rules ?
Pretty sure not many people actually do that to begin with.


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## Immortal (Oct 2, 2013)

I disagree with the notion that our advances as a community are whats causing the recent dip in quality for our games. 

The committee shit was as much as a community decision as I've ever seen us have in the past year, so acting like that was forced on anyone is just BS lol. The Schedule is necessary, but should be continuously tweaked while a modkill list may not be necessary, but if it was done right it would be quite helpful imo.


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## SoulTaker (Oct 2, 2013)

Schedule was cool when it wasn't a restriction tool.

Committee could have been better.

Modkill list is a step away from a black list. Kind of like how the schedule was a step away from being a restrictive device. 

Activity isn't really down. Quality of games is though.

Now cheating on the other hand. That's something that should get your ass blacklisted.


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## Tiger (Oct 2, 2013)

Olivia said:


> While I certainty don't want to derail the thread, these are my comments on the aforementioned.
> 
> The schedule thread was originally put in place because people felt that the games they were planning were being over shined because others brought up a new idea. To organize those ideas better, a schedule thread was put into place. Originally, I believe it was simply to have stated what games were being made and a link to the sign ups, however it quickly changed into a 'schedule format'. Now with the new subsection the schedule is being enforced, versus being a useful tool to see what games are being planned.
> 
> ...



Absolutely.



KamiKazi said:


> Keep talk of specific instances out of the thread please and thank you. If you have a complaint bring it to one of the section mods, if you have a prior disagreement take it to PMs/VMs and talk it out there, but this thread isn't the place to discuss it.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a fan of a modkill list. A rule is already in place and a list calling people out seems questionable. Like MP said, hosts can judge for themselves.



The community does not need or want moderator involvement when it comes to creating its own blacklist of players who consistently go inactive, no-show, or intentionally break rules in their games. This is not something we need permission to do, and it will only be as official as we want it to be, for those who wish to use it as a tool.

Cheating, dupe problems, or abuse, on the other hand, is a separate and more severe matter - which is obviously brought to a mod of the section.

If mods try to force us not to make a thread about the "blacklist" we create, we'll just do it privately and talk about it with other hosts who are interested in knowing what we've come up with.

As someone who hosts frequently, and knowing other hosts who do the same, this is something that will be valuable to keeping track of who to simply 'ban' from our games. It's a community tool, and I know - for example - WAD and I certainly aren't going to throw up a poll to have democracy let us know if making the list is agreed upon in the community.

Any player who finds such a list makes them feel persecuted, then maybe they should stop flaking out on the fucking games they sign up for and it wouldn't apply to them. No host here thinks badly of someone who PM's us to say "sorry I have to drop out, RL, etc." it's the players who simply decide one day that respect is not an important facet of life, internet or otherwise, and simply refuses to show up with any kind of warning, that this list will protect future mods from. Everyone makes a mistake or has unforeseen events tackle them in life, having it happen to you once or twice in the time you play mafia is no big deal. Repeat offenders with a pattern of behavior that shits on the hosts of the game they spent hours creating for their enjoyment...well, frankly, if they're offended by my words or actions...*Good*. I can only speak for myself, but if I can have only active players I know will play and give it their best even if they're busy, then I will do whatever I need to do in order to see that happen.

What some of you people fail to realize is that on other mafia forums, it is fucking embarrassing when someone has to be modkilled for inactivity. It is an insult, and a lack of respect. Every single one of you has the time to log on, type a couple sentences, place a vote and log off to avoid being modkilled if there's a few days in a row you're slammed and unable to be active. Every. Single. One. The reason you don't, is because you don't respect the host, the game, the community, and/or don't like your role enough to give a shit. Any action taken by those who are known as "consistent hosts" to put even a dent in this shitty communal behavior is a good step for the longevity of the community.


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## SinRaven (Oct 2, 2013)

Really, there's nothing wrong with all the rules and committees and stuff. Personally, I think what's wrong with it is the people complaining about it.

Like, you can still play your game or host your game (though waiting for a while until it's your turn, which actually will probably boost the activity anyway so it isn't a bad thing) without ever even paying attention to all of this. 

Hell, this all is to make mafia better and more enjoyable and if people just accept that instead of complaining about nothing (since it actually doesn't change the experience in the games), there would be no problem. In fact, it would do what it means to do: boost player activity and fun. 

So, like, if you got a problem with it just don't pay attention to all this bullcrap. Like I said: Keep playing and hosting your games. You won't notice the difference.

I don't think it's an explanation for the recent inactivity either. Mafia has its ups and downs, this is one of its downs. It's not even th?t inactive. When I started playing games here, it was about this active. Coincidently (or not, simply because people have the same schedule over year and thus it is probably an IRL thing) the activity is about the same when I started playing.

So just stop complaining and keep playing. There's no reason to act like shit for something that affects few stuff.


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## Tiger (Oct 2, 2013)

No matter how good a rule is, or how prosperous its goals, there will always be people who hate it for the sole fact that it's a _rule_.


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## A. Waltz (Oct 2, 2013)

Belphegoob said:


> Government shutdown, no more funding for mafia ):



/close thread belphegoob for speaker of the house and azn for whip


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## KamiKazi (Oct 2, 2013)

Law said:


> The community does not need or want moderator involvement when it comes to creating its own blacklist of players who consistently go inactive, no-show, or intentionally break rules in their games. This is not something we need permission to do, and it will only be as official as we want it to be, for those who wish to use it as a tool.
> 
> If mods try to force us not to make a thread about the "blacklist" we create, we'll just do it privately and talk about it with other hosts who are interested in knowing what we've come up with.



First, if it's decided that a blacklist of players is only going to be problematic and create drama there will not be a blacklist of players. 
Second, if you start excluding people via private blacklist I'll personally push to have anyone doing so section banned. 

You don't enforce or dictate the rules and I wouldn't recommend trying to do so. No mod here thinks badly of someone who PMs us to say "this member has gone inactive on several of my games" so that we can enforce the rules. You don't need a list calling people out and kicking up shit to get beneficial results. As part of the community and as a moderator for the section, I can tell you that having moderator involvement isn't a bad thing.


You can shoot me a PM if it's something you want to discuss.


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## Tiger (Oct 2, 2013)

If at any time I choose to disallow someone from signing up for *my* games, they will not be included in *my* games.

You can PM me if you have an issue with _that_.


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## Olivia (Oct 2, 2013)

I agree with Law on this one. If I've seen someone constantly be inactive or even cheat, then I will refuse for them to play in my game, simple as that.


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## Magician (Oct 2, 2013)




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## Tiger (Oct 2, 2013)

Olivia said:


> I agree with Law on this one. If I've seen someone constantly be inactive or even cheat, then I will refuse for them to play in my game, simple as that.



No one can force anyone to include someone in a game they created, that they are hosting. Doesn't matter who.


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## KamiKazi (Oct 2, 2013)

Reply only or a section ban would mean you won't be able to create any games. If you can't handle hosting you won't be allowed to host. Simple as that. This isn't a fight, it's how the forum runs. There are rules and those rules are expected to be followed. No section is allowed to run itself no matter how capable they believe themselves to be.



Olivia said:


> I agree with Law on this one. If I've seen someone constantly be inactive or even cheat, then I will refuse for them to play in my game, simple as that.



If they cheat they'll be section banned and if they are constantly inactive then they can be excluded from games. That is perfectly fine. 

I'm speaking specifically of going against the call of a moderator. If you say no speaking during the night phase then the players don't speak during the night phase. Same deal. If a rule is set, it's to be followed.


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## Tiger (Oct 3, 2013)

Show me the rule that says I can't decide who plays in _*my*_ games.

I've read them carefully, and I'm breaking _none_ of them.

If I see players consistently going inactive, or being disrespectful in games - they won't play in mine. And I know the same goes for a handful of other active hosts. You seem pretty new to this game, this is always how it's been, and always how it will be. If you can't respect the hosts, you don't play in their games.


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## KamiKazi (Oct 3, 2013)

Law said:


> If I see players consistently going inactive, or being disrespectful in games - they won't play





> if they are constantly inactive then they can be excluded from games. That is perfectly fine.



Ok                   ...


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## tgm2x (Oct 3, 2013)

Mr. Waffles said:


> Since when do people read the rules ?
> Pretty sure not many people actually do that to begin with.



At least there would be maximally comfortable terms for the ones who do while the ones who don't wouldn't be able to complain much(at least reasonably) because there wouldn't be a problem for them to read why something happened to them.


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## Reznor (Oct 3, 2013)

For now it is left up to the hosts of each game to decide who to include in their game - unless someone is banned for participation as a punitive act.

That being said, if someone is overly exclusive with their games, they may not get a large game next time, as the limited number of simultaneous games needs to serve the section as a whole, not a cliche.


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## A. Waltz (Oct 4, 2013)

tbh having inactives is a part of all games

like, it's common game-making knowledge that you have to keep your game balanced; you can't have every role have an ability you'd take offence to not being used. you need generics, or just plain roles. and hey, you sorta need inactives to fill those roles dont you think? also inactives serve a psychological role as well, "could they be scum scheming in the background... or are they just generics?" 

idk but tbh this whole deal of "omfg how dare u disrespect my game uguu u bitches mother fuckers imma blacklist u!1!!" deal is so stupid

santi's gonna laugh at me when i say this, but hey, it's the fucking internet. sure it takes 2 minutes to like post, but with phone signal lag and turning on your computer or whatever it can take more than that and tbh like you as a host are not entitled to have every participant's fucks. im sorry but it's the truth and you can't expect to be "respected" or "appreciated" just because you worked hard to make some roles. yeah in an ideal world it'd be nice to have your time and efforts rewarded with things like good participation but hey that's life and better you learn from an online forum game than something more emotionally invested-in like friendships or relationships or (real world) work.

when you make a game as a host, you make it so that others can enjoy themselves. you make it so that they can indulge you, to a point. whenever you serve people, you have to understand that your audience won't always be so receptive of your product or service. you can't get offended by that. you gave em the chance to be involved in a fun social game, and hey if they dont invest in it, well, that's life. you know it was a possibility.

dont make a game just to feel omniscient. there will be those who will be lavished in your game and those who won't give much of a damn. but that's a part of this system and the opportunity cost of trying to change that isn't worth it. sometime's it's better accepting human nature as is than being overtly idealistic and ruining the chances at peace you could have had by investing your pride into changing a fruitless situation.


mafia games have been around for years now. inactives have been a part of that. it comes with the package. it's never been a problem until now.

i can't offer an apology to make up for the lack of enjoyment you received from making a game that turned out inactive. you can't let it eat you up, you can't whine, cry and blame it on others. it's not a thing requiring "faults" or "blame". you know well the nature of these games. you don't have a right to get pissed over it when you know so.


all you can do is make a game with genuine integrity and hope people have fun playing it. that's all you can ever ask of others; to enjoy your game.


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## A. Waltz (Oct 4, 2013)

also, telling someone to not do something is very counter-intuitive.  ever tell someone not to do something, not to think of something? what do they do? they do that thing, they think of that thing. the human brain works in positives, not negatives.

instead, ask them to be conscious of their participation. don't judge it, just be aware of it. you'll see that people will naturally deliver because of your positive requests.


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## Santí (Oct 4, 2013)

AznKuchikiChick said:


> *santi's gonna laugh at me when i say this*, but hey, it's the fucking internet.



What makes you say that?


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## Thomas Edison (Oct 4, 2013)

AznKuchikiChick said:


> tbh having inactives is a part of all games
> 
> like, it's common game-making knowledge that you have to keep your game balanced; you can't have every role have an ability you'd take offence to not being used. you need generics, or just plain roles. and hey, you sorta need inactives to fill those roles dont you think? also inactives serve a psychological role as well, "could they be scum scheming in the background... or are they just generics?"
> 
> ...



I agree with the underlying premise of your rant. Life gets in the way, shit happens, Internet forum games are a low priority for many people. I know this. My counter point is that if you know you can't give your fellow players the respect they deserve by being active, yo shouldn't sign up. That's all. 

You don't need tons of activity, just show that you care.


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## A. Waltz (Oct 4, 2013)

Sant? said:


> What makes you say that?



lol ok good you don't remember hahahaha


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## aiyanah (Oct 4, 2013)

let inactifags be 
you dont have to like them but its been a part of mafia foreverzzzz


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## FLORIDA MAN (Oct 4, 2013)

If you don't show the most basic form of consideration and respect.
How am I wrong for denying your neglect of my products, what do you expect?


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## Immortal (Oct 4, 2013)

Ya no, I get the basic premise of your posts there Azn, but I think that's a dumb way to excuse people for ignoring games they sign up for. Just don't sign up for games you aren't going to play in, its as simple as that. And if something irl comes up midgame like connection issues, family, school, work or whatever, you just message the gamemod when you have a chance and let them know.

Really simple stuff here. Just common sense and common courtesy.


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## Tiger (Oct 4, 2013)

AznKuchikiChick said:


> tbh having inactives is a part of all games
> 
> +A whole bunch of inane, meandering, pointless bullshit.





aiyanah said:


> let inactifags be
> you dont have to like them but its been a part of mafia foreverzzzz



Fuck off.

"It's been here forever, so don't worry about it" is one of the dumbest fucking sentiments I've ever read in this community.

Only on NF is it so common and accepted for people to just sign up for a game and never show up. It has not been "a part of mafia foreverzzzz". It has been a constantly growing problem solely on this fucking forum. Get your heads out of your respective asses.

If you're not 100% going to be playing a game, don't sign up for it. Plain as fucking day. If something comes up and you won't be able to play, you tell someone so they can replace you. <-- anything else is just fucking disrespectful to everyone in the community, and people need to stop just getting away with it and being excused by apologists like the two of you. God damn.



Immortal said:


> Ya no, I get the basic premise of your posts there Azn, but I think that's a dumb way to excuse people for ignoring games they sign up for. Just don't sign up for games you aren't going to play in, its as simple as that. And if something irl comes up midgame like connection issues, family, school, work or whatever, you just message the gamemod when you have a chance and let them know.
> 
> Really simple stuff here. Just common sense and common courtesy.



And if my attitude causes you to instantly not listen to me, then at least listen to Immortal who is being much nicer than I'm willing to be.


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## A. Waltz (Oct 4, 2013)

i think your expectation are too high

yeah you'll never get somebody who contributes 100% to your game

their lives dont revolve around your games. behind every name there is a life. just like yours and yet completely different. people don't exist to be at your command.


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## Thomas Edison (Oct 4, 2013)

Law said:


> Fuck off.
> 
> "It's been here forever, so don't worry about it" is one of the dumbest fucking sentiments I've ever read in this community.
> 
> ...



Although you're coming off heavy handed here, I'll second the notion that inactives ain't shit but hoes and tricks.

They bring the game down for everyone. Other players, the mods; it's just disrespectful.



AznKuchikiChick said:


> i think your expectation are too high
> 
> yeah you'll never get somebody who contributes 100% to your game
> 
> their lives dont revolve around your games. behind every name there is a life. just like yours and yet completely different. people don't exist to be at your command.



I'm currently hosting a game with 18 players and only 1 has been inactive. This is a lame excuse.


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## FLORIDA MAN (Oct 4, 2013)

I can understand why people might emphasis on MIGHT get modkilled for inactivity.
But out of the dozens I've modkilled maybe 2 or 3 people apologized to me.
I don't let people get away with disrespecting me, not on the internet or real life.
No matter if you're a stranger, best friend, mother, or even my future wife.


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## Olivia (Oct 4, 2013)

AznKuchikiChick said:


> i think your expectation are too high
> *
> yeah you'll never get somebody who contributes 100% to your game*
> 
> their lives dont revolve around your games. behind every name there is a life. just like yours and yet completely different. people don't exist to be at your command.



I'm not asking for 100%, because I know people have lifes' and stuff. However, if they can't even play then what's the point of even being in the game? To take up a spot while someone on the replacement list is willing to be active?

I mean, I understand that people can be busy, but there's literally no excuse as to why someone should not be posting, or at least messaging the mod an excuse at all. If they can't bother with that then they shouldn't even be playing.


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## Magician (Oct 4, 2013)

Because mafia is super srs bsns.


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## Tiger (Oct 4, 2013)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Because mafia is super srs bsns.



The worst kind of comment the community can muster.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 5, 2013)

I'm of the opinion that at least meeting the post quota is the most basic courtesy you can provide to the game mod. Fair enough, if you have real life stuff that prevents this, but otherwise, it's just sort of disrespectful and detrimental to the game.


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## Tiger (Oct 5, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm of the opinion that at least meeting the post quota is the most basic courtesy you can provide to the game mod. Fair enough, if you have real life stuff that prevents this, but otherwise, it's just sort of disrespectful and detrimental to the game.



And no host ever holds it against someone if they PM them and say "Hey sorry I can't play after all" - it gives them time to find a replacement, and it's fair to those who didn't sign up in time but are willing to play.

It's the people who just "can't give a darn" and don't understand the concept of basic respect and courtesy that piss hosts off. And the people who defend those disrespectful players and say it's no big deal, or "llolll1 guys, intrnetz is srz biznass!". #bitchslap


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## Nois (Oct 5, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm of the opinion that at least meeting the post quota is the most basic courtesy you can provide to the game mod. Fair enough, if you have real life stuff that prevents this, but otherwise, it's just sort of disrespectful and detrimental to the game.



I support this. Meet the post quota. If you can't even give the host a heads up, be respectful enough to apologise properly.

I don't paricularly like the "have to vote" rule, because considering the game, withdrawing from voting is a legit irl mechanic, which can contribute to the gameplay and is the player's own responsibility.


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## SinRaven (Oct 5, 2013)

Murderers have been in our world forever.

Should we let them be as well?

(Placing your words in another context might just make you see how stupid they sound.)


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## Immortal (Oct 5, 2013)

I love Space.


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## Blur (Oct 5, 2013)

Immortal said:


> I love Space.



My condolences.


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## Reznor (Oct 5, 2013)

Anyone that is of the "lol internet = serious business" mindset shouldn't mind exclusion, unless internet is _selectively_ "serious business."

Perhaps we should have a combination of some serious and some casual games occuring.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Nov 5, 2013)

I feel like we should instate some kind of posts capping. I feel like we have far too many posts that aren't needed, and don't necessarily help the game flow, but do the opposite by making people troll through the posts.


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## Immortal (Nov 5, 2013)

lol no.**


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## TheCupOfBrew (Nov 5, 2013)

Why not? The miscellaneous posts can get ridiculous sometimes. It's not that uncommon it seems to be out for a while, and not have just a bit of reading to do, but a considerable amount.


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## Tiger (Nov 5, 2013)

You don't make universal rules to enforce players to play a certain way when posting. You don't take away play-style options. You give them formatting, you tell them when they can and can not post - and then you take your hands out of the jar and let them do what they will.

If you want there to be a game where fluff posts are restricted, then you create a game, and as a host - you flex your hosting powers by restricting fluff posts in your game.

But you don't try and enforce all games to adhere to your opinion. This is not like saying "no editing allowed, and no posting at night" - you're trying to change what might be someone's strategy, for better or worse, in a game of mafia.

GTFO.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Nov 5, 2013)

Law said:


> You don't make universal rules to enforce players to play a certain way when posting. You don't take away play-style options. You give them formatting, you tell them when they can and can not post - and then you take your hands out of the jar and let them do what they will.
> 
> If you want there to be a game where fluff posts are restricted, then you create a game, and as a host - you flex your hosting powers by restricting fluff posts in your game.
> 
> ...



That's adorable, I make a decent enough suggestion, and this is a reply I get.

Anyway that can be true for sure, but what about the people inconvienced by the sheer amount of posts sometimes?


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## Immortal (Nov 5, 2013)

Can't eliminate a play style. I just wish generic games got 400+ posts a dayphase instead of just role madness games.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Nov 5, 2013)

How much of a play style is posting a lot, just for posting sake though


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## Tiger (Nov 5, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> That's adorable, I make a decent enough suggestion, and this is a reply I get.
> 
> Anyway that can be true for sure, but what about the people inconvienced by the sheer amount of posts sometimes?



Learn to skim, that's what most veteran players do. And if you fancy yourself a hero to all, set aside the hour it takes to read the thread and be really up to speed.

I, for one, leave hints in fluff posts left, right and center.



Iron Man said:


> How much of a play style is posting a lot, just for posting sake though



That's not for you to decide. Play or don't. Read or don't.

And no, it wasn't a decent suggestion. It was stupid, because you're only approaching it from one perspective - your own. That's why decisions don't get passed through by one person. You came up with a short-sighted idea from one angle, I explained to you why it was a bad idea. I ended my explanation with a jokish, dismissive comment because that's the kind of thing I find funny. And as much as you thought it was a stellar suggestion, it just really wasn't. So...gtfo.

Like I said, this idea is the kind of thing that is done for individual games, not a rule that is universally followed. So create and host a game and restrict fluff posts to your heart's desire. If it's the end-all rule that delights and impresses the masses, they'll clamor for it to be more common. Until then, it'll just be shrugged off and ignored as "restrictive for the sake of being restrictive", which is much worse than "posting for the sake of posting."


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## Laix (Nov 5, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm of the opinion that at least meeting the post quota is the most basic courtesy you can provide to the game mod. Fair enough, if you have real life stuff that prevents this, but otherwise, it's just sort of disrespectful and detrimental to the game.



It is disrespectful but I'm hardly one to talk with all my modkills and I do apologise to hosts who put up with me.

Heads up - if I'm in your game, do* NOT* give me an important role! 

It's what I do to known inactifags.


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## Draekke (Nov 5, 2013)

I understand why you are saying that IM, but really, limiting players' posts? That's a mafia-faction dream right there. Posting is the main tool that town has to go off of, and so if you limit that, you're really just changing the game.

Can it be hard to keep up to big games? Yep. That's one reason why I prefer small ones (and that they are more focussed, but that's a different concept). But if you're going to sign up to a big game, you should probably already know what you're getting yourself into.


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