# SM Jiraiya vs Tsunade and Sakura



## joshhookway (Jun 3, 2013)

Location: Sannin battlefield
Restrictions: None
Knowledge: full
SOM: IC
Distance 30m

Jiraiya starts in SM.


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## Axiom (Jun 3, 2013)

Ehhh Sakura really doesn't make a difference here.

Jiraiya attacks Tsunade with Yomi Numa or Goemon or Frog Song and Sakura dies from collateral damage.  Tsunade dies pretty quickly, too.  Jiraiya easily has the physical capabilities to dance around her, he has the knowledge to know he needs to do so, and he has the three moves listed above which allow him to bypass her regeneration.

The Sakura hype train needs to crash >:|


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## raizen28 (Jun 3, 2013)

Full knwoledge for Jiraiya?

Toad flame bomb+Boiling Water+Yomi Numa+ Senbon fast attack thingys gg


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## Bonly (Jun 3, 2013)

Jiraiya should win more times then not. Jiraiya's Yomi Numa to stop their movements whenever he wants as well as have Ma+Pa use frog song to stop their movement. After Jiraiya stops their movements it just a matter of Jiraiya finishing them off which shouldn't take to long.


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## Doge (Jun 3, 2013)

Jiraiya should take this.  He knows not to let either of them get anywhere near him.  

Jiraiya will create distance with a large Yomi Numa that will tie up Tsunade, Sakura, and Katsuya.  Then he'll use a Toad Flame Bomb to lay down some damage on Tsunade and force Byakogou to come out.  Since both of the girls are stuck, Tsunade and Sakura will waste chakra staying alive until (and if) they get out of Yomi Numa.

Since Jiraiya knows they'll be ridiculously tough to take down, he then will opt to go ahead and restrain then with Frog Song.  Byakogou will already be active, so it can't break Tsunade out of the genjutsu as it will already have her chakra flowing at a regular rate.

Jiraiya then either decapitates them or drowns them in Yomi Numa.


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## ueharakk (Jun 3, 2013)

Jiraiya is still much faster than both of them, can use kagebunshin and can still end sakura and tsunade or massively drain her byakugo if he uses SM COR on either one (something that even paths of pain couldn't dodge at a distance).  He can also kill sakura and do good damage to tsunade with his shoulder laser.

They they have the ability to send him into the air with the shockwave of their floor punches, but he can maneauver in the air via kagebunshin, can put a chou oodama rasengan between himself and them, and can still fire lasers.


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## Guybot2 (Jun 3, 2013)

Tsunade take this.. She dont have to do anything.. just Flash... Jiraya died from her ungodly breasts all in the open aimed at J-man


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 3, 2013)

I dunno. I mean Tsunade alone would give Sage Jiraiya a lot of trouble in this location, but Sakura; who although wouldn't exactly be able to pressure him in combat, is great for support purposes and at least hard to put down now that she can regenerate like her master. Her help can't go unnoticed here

And anyway, besides the Frog Song (which he won't be able to use in such an open location against two smashy smashy opponents), is there any way Jiraiya can even put them down? If he fires a _Goemon_ Sakura punches the ground and sends the lava in the other direction. If he tries _rasenganing_ either of the ladies they just regenerate while the other one, or Katsuyu, attacks him. If he uses his hair senbon, either Tsunade or Sakura can likely do something similar to what Animal Path _did to block the attack_ - especially with full knowledge. Tsunade could summon Katsuyu, who requires only a dab of blood and a mere tap to summon. Or, alternatively, Sakura punches the ground again. Hell, even if they are hit they both just regenerate - no biggie.

If he fires katons at them, the either dodge or regenerate. If he summons boss toads, they either get one shotted by the medic kunoichi or stalled by Katsuyu. 

In fact I think the only way Jiraiya can put them down is by using _Yomi Numa_, but even then I'm willing to believe that Sakura could strike the mud so hard that it splashes into the air and knocks both her and Tsunade free from its grasp. They can also rely on Katsuyu to elevate themselves out of the mud. 

I don't believe J-Man's durability is anything worth writing home about in Sage Mode, though his resilience is excellent (his arm was chopped off and he didn't even flinch). Still, a single strike is all it takes to put J-Man down, and with their ability to tank/dodge all of his attacks it seems like it would only be a matter of time before he was hit. Tsunade would obviously do most of the fighting, but evidently Sakura's hulk punches are of significant use in blocking some of his techniques.

I actually think the ladies win this, albeit with a lot of difficulty.​​


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## Alex Payne (Jun 3, 2013)

People should stop using Sakura in high-level fights. She must show more to be considered a factor in Sannin-lvl fight. Jiraiya vs Tsunade ends in Jiraiya's decisive victory - too many tools to keep Tsunade away and overload her regen. If Jiraiya is to start in Base then we might see a close fight but with SM ready his ranged offensive moves combined with things like Yomi Numa and Frog Song is too potent for Tsunade to get into CQC range.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 3, 2013)

^Overloading her regeneration is completely dependent on how much chakra she has stored away. With a few weeks she could accomplish what she did against Madara, which already makes Jiraiya exhausting her reserves seem like a pretty unlikely scenaro. With a few months, or even a few years of storage, the idea just seems plain stupid.​​


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## Alex Payne (Jun 3, 2013)

It is dependent on the damage her tech is forced to regenerate from. What she tanked against Madara is laughable compared to Senpo: Goemon and Odama Rasengan. Good luck healing from Yomi Numa too.


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## Krippy (Jun 3, 2013)

Yomi numa GG


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## ueharakk (Jun 3, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> If he tries _rasenganing_ either of the ladies they just regenerate while the other one, or Katsuyu, attacks him.



you don't think that a rasengan that many times the size of their own bodies isn't going to outright kill or massively drain their regen reserves?


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## Mithos (Jun 3, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> you don't think that a rasengan that many times the size of their own bodies isn't going to outright kill or massively drain their regen reserves?



Unless it literally rips them into a bunch of pieces, it's not going to exhaust them, no.



Krippy said:


> Yomi numa GG



Also - no. Yomi Numa is not taking out any Kage level opponent by itself.


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## ueharakk (Jun 3, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Unless it literally rips them into a bunch of pieces, it's not going to exhaust them, no.



Why not?  A normal rasengan from part 1 kid naruto exhausted Kabuto's total chakra supply without ripping him into pieces.  Visible or not, damage is damage and the internal net total damage that a normal rasengan does to its target is immense.

Also, why wouldn't a rasengan that completely envelopes the girls rip them into pieces?


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## Mithos (Jun 3, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Why not?  A normal rasengan from part 1 kid naruto exhausted Kabuto's total chakra supply without ripping him into pieces.  Visible or not, damage is damage and the internal net total damage that a normal rasengan does to its target is immense.
> 
> Also, why wouldn't a rasengan that completely envelopes the girls rip them into pieces?



Yeah it exhausted Kabuto's normal chakra supply, but that doesn't matter because Byakugou uses huge amounts of chakra that have been saved up over a given period of time. The amount of chakra in the seals far surpasses Kabuto's reserves, which were never noted to be anything special. 

Tsunade was able to send chakra to protect hundreds of people from CST and heal herself with her seal. She was able to regenerate from Mabui's teleportation with Souzou Saisei and then fight with her regeneration for hours (from day to night) before it ran out. 

Internal damage, even if extremely severe, is not going to bypass Byakugou. Having her spine severed and her internal organs skewered didn't even faze Tsunade one bit. 

Rasengan doesn't really tear things to pieces; it burrows and destroys the insides of the target. I think it would destroy all, or most, of their internal organs for sure. But that kind of damage isn't going to kill them.


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## Rocky (Jun 3, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Also - no. Yomi Numa is not taking out any Kage level opponent by itself.




I thought it was accepted that hax techniques can take out _any_ opponent under the right circumstances when Itachi downed legendary Sannin with blinks. (Tsunade would probably just climb out of the swamp though. Too much physical power to be restrained).


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 3, 2013)

alex payne said:


> It is dependent on the damage her tech is forced to regenerate from. What she tanked against Madara is laughable compared to Senpo: Goemon and Odama Rasengan. Good luck healing from Yomi Numa too.



Madara roasted her arms with katons powerful enough to generate storm clouds. I believe he also roasted her and the other Kage with a significantly larger katon _earlier on_. Madara's katons are obviously a lot more intense than Jiriaya's are as well, since he's an Uchiha. Tsunade had her spine severed, her organs mashed, took a point blank magatama right in the tits, and was torn apart by a technique that threw her at light-speed across a country. Furthermore, by her own merit she can regenerate entire organs and limbs, and has been cited as being unable to die on more than one occasion (even if it a hyperbole). 

Odama Rasengan or Goemon is no more horrific than the damage Tsunade was taking against Madara. There's absolutely no reason to doubt her regeneration's limits other than sheer cynicism.

Also, Yomi Numa doesn't even inflict damage, so why would she need to heal herself? She either summons Katsuyu or Sakura punches them out.​​


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## Mithos (Jun 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I thought it was accepted that hax techniques can take out _any_ opponent under the right circumstances when Itachi downed legendary Sannin with blinks. (Tsunade was probably just climb out of the swamp though. Too much physical power to be restrained).



Any Kage level opponent is going to have some kind of counter to escape the swamp or defend against it. 

I don't even see it as haxx. It's a vastly overrated A-rank elemental technique that people on this forum believe is completely unavoidable. Why, I have no idea. It has its uses for sure and is a great technique to have, but it's not a 'GG' technique in high level matches.


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## ueharakk (Jun 3, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Yeah it exhausted Kabuto's normal chakra supply, but that doesn't matter because Byakugou uses huge amounts of chakra that have been saved up over a given period of time. The amount of chakra in the seals far surpasses Kabuto's reserves, which were never noted to be anything special.


I'm sure you know what I'm going to say to this.



Matto-sama said:


> Tsunade was able to send chakra to protect hundreds of people from CST and heal herself with her seal. She was able to regenerate from Mabui's teleportation with Souzou Saisei and then fight with her regeneration for hours (from day to night) before it ran out.


which is all very impressive, but I'm pretty sure katsuya surrounding everyone had a lot to do with her protecting them from CST as well, not just tsunade's chakra.  CST maybe much more powerful than a SM COR, but its power wasn't directed on all those villagers lots of it was wasted on buildings and dredging up the ground.  Tsunade is going to be taking the majority of the rasengan's full power if it hits her directly.

As for the war feats, tsunade wasn't damaged much by the teleportation, and the amount of punishment she took from the susanoo clones is dependent on the rate in which she gets impaled by them.



Matto-sama said:


> Internal damage, even if extremely severe, is not going to bypass Byakugou. Having her spine severed and her internal organs skewered didn't even faze Tsunade one bit.


I'm not saying that byakugou can't heal internal damage, however I'm arguing that it doesn't have to tear her into pieces for it to drain byakugo.



Matto-sama said:


> Rasengan doesn't really tear things to pieces; it burrows and destroys the insides of the target. I think it would destroy all, or most, of their internal organs for sure. But that kind of damage isn't going to kill them.


that's what happens when a rasengan much smaller than the target is used.  This time its the reverse situation, the target is much smaller than the rasengan.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 3, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Madara roasted her arms with katons powerful enough to generate storm clouds.​​


 Lol. Sasuke has those Katons. What Madara used on Tsunade was a completely different tech . Not doubting Madara's techs but the damage he dealt was relatively minor. Those Katons were likely to be based around speed/range/precision and not power.





Godaime Tsunade said:


> That's all. I believe he also roasted her and the other Kage with a significantly larger katon _earlier on_. Madara's katons are obviously a lot more intense than Jiriaya's are as well, since he's an Uchiha. Tsunade had her spine severed, her organs mashed, took a point blank magatama right in the tits, and was torn apart by a technique that threw her at light-speed across a country. Furthermore, by her own merit she can regenerate entire organs and limbs, and has been cited as being unable to die on more than one occasion (even if it a hyperbole).​​


 Kages weren't hit by that Katon. Or they would be dead afterwards. Goemon isn't Katon. It is Katon+Futon+Oil performed by 3 Sage Mode users. 3 Sage-lvl tech combined into one. Tsunade is going to suffer tremendous damage. Overheated burning oil. I repeat it again - a lake of overheated burning oil. If Tsunade gets caught - she is dead in my opinion. She wouldn't be able to move and escape. Her tech would be busy healing up crazy full-body burns and her body would still be in bad conditions receiving non-stop damage. Her eyes would also be damaged.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Odama Rasengan or Goemon is no more horrific than the damage Tsunade was taking against Madara. There's absolutely no reason to doubt her regeneration's limits other than sheer cynicism.​​


 Odama Rasengan alone would deal more damage than a combination of all attacks she was hit at that battle. She got parts of her chest messed up. Odama Rasengan is going to wreck her whole body. Can she heal from one OR? Likely. Would she be able to heal fast enough for Jiraiya to not follow up with something else? Nope. Would she be able to heal from that without using a large amount of chakra? Nope.


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## Rocky (Jun 3, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Any Kage level opponent is going to have some kind of counter to escape the swamp or defend against it.




No, having a counter is specific to a character's moveset.  



> I don't even see it as haxx. It's a vastly overrated A-rank elemental technique that people on this forum believe is completely unavoidable. Why, I have no idea. It has its uses for sure and is a great technique to have, but it's not a 'GG' technique in high level matches.




What isn't hax about spawning a gigantic swamp capable of sinking and drowning very very large snakes. You have to have some serious strength to overcome that.


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## Axiom (Jun 3, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> And anyway, besides the Frog Song (which he won't be able to use in such an open location against two smashy smashy opponents), is there any way Jiraiya can even put them down?



Well, I don't agree that Jiraiya would be fucked if Frog Song was restricted, but that aside, I disagree with this even more.  Why on Earth would Jiraiya not be able to use Frog Song?  He can always make Sage Clones to distract the ladies, and can confuse them by blocking LoS and hiding in shadows and what have you, he can summon toads to leap away from the duo faster than they can chase, but even that isn't necessary because Jiraiya himself can just dance around them with his speed and reflexes.  The speed gap here is large enough to the point that if Jiraiya sets his mind on using Frog Song, he can easily dance around them using his speed and KB's.

And the open location doesn't matter.  Sound genjutsu works in open locations.


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## Mithos (Jun 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> [No, having a counter is specific to a character's moveset.



The whole point of being Kage level is that one can deal with a wide variety of threats. No Kage is going to fall to a simple A-rank elemental jutsu. It just doesn't happen. 




> What isn't hax about spawning a gigantic swamp capable of sinking and drowning very very large snakes. You have to have some serious strength to overcome that



Well, first it has to hit it's target. Which means its target has a chance to evade it or activate a jutsu to counter it. Then it has to trap and sink its target before they escape it, which can be countered by a bunch of ninjutsu or strength. 

It's one of the most overrated techniques on this forum. It's great against summons/large targets or stationary fighters, but it cannot be used against high level ninja without significant set-ups. 

Jiraiya could make a swamp big enough to catch all the Gokage standing next to one another. That doesn't mean he's going to catch them if he tries.


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## Rocky (Jun 3, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> The whole point of being Kage level is that one can deal with a wide variety of threats. No Kage is going to fall to a simple A-rank elemental jutsu. It just doesn't happen.




Again, no. That was baseless. Who are you to define what the prerequisites of "Kage-level" are? 

I might have shared your stance before I saw Kage-level guys get incapacitated by basic Genjutsu.



> Well, first it has to hit it's target. Which means its target has a chance to evade it or activate a jutsu to counter it. Then it has to trap and sink its target before they escape it, which can be countered by a bunch of ninjutsu or strength.




It appears below the feet...so no none of that would work. The opponent would have to see it coming.


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## Mithos (Jun 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Again, no. That was baseless. Who are you to define what the prerequisites of "Kage-level" are?
> 
> I might have shared your stance before I saw Kage-level guys get incapacitated by basic Genjutsu.



And who got incapacitated by "basic genjutsu"?

Orochimaru? He didn't try to avoid it. He arrogantly stared into Itachi's eyes. And even then he could resist and was going to break free. And his regeneration prevents any damage Itachi could have done to him in that time from actually harming him. When Orochimaru had his second "fight" against Itachi, he wasn't worried about his genjutsu at all. 

A? He had to be distracted and let his guard down first. 

None of the Gokage were worried about genjutsu against Madara because they knew not to look into his eyes. And unless he forces them to - which only happened when one let his guard down against multiple Susano'o clones - he won't catch them. 

How is it baseless? You can't be Kage-level if you're going to go down to a basic technique. Just because they haven't shown a counter doesn't mean they don't have one. When Kishi writes fights between 2 Hokage level ninja, they are never defeated by basic elemenal ninjutsu or whatever. One uses a technique and the other counters in some manner. 




Rocky said:


> It appears below the feet...so no none of that would work. The opponent would have to see it coming.


Ninja have avoided attacks from below before. And they have also anticipated when and where attacks will come from and preemptively evaded or activated a jutus to counter/defend.


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## Orochimaru800 (Jun 3, 2013)

Kishi isn't writing this fight.


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## Rocky (Jun 3, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> And who got incapacitated by "basic genjutsu"?
> 
> How is it baseless? You can't be Kage-level if you're going to go down to a basic technique. Just because they haven't shown a counter doesn't mean they don't have one. When Kishi writes fights between 2 Hokage level ninja, they are never defeated by basic elemenal ninjutsu or whatever. One uses a technique and the other counters in some manner.




EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi, two characters that blow away any Kage that doesn't have a "Ho" prefix, were downed by the B-rank Mugen Onsa. Individually, they were screwed. Their solution was a team effort that you can't replicate with one guy.


It's not the rank of the Jutsu, or how basic it is....it's how you apply it in battle.




> Ninja have avoided attacks from below before. And they have also anticipated when and where attacks will come from and preemptively evaded or activated a jutus to counter/defend.




This very rarely happens. You can't do anything about surprise unless you have god reflexes. Just look at all the guy's Gaara's snagged by the feet.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 3, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Lol. Sasuke has those Katons. What Madara used on Tsunade was a completely different tech . Not doubting Madara's techs but the damage he dealt was relatively minor. Those Katons *were likely to be* based around speed/range/precision and not power.



This is just more unneeded cynicism. Sasuke's technique was the same one used as Madara; albeit he only generated one bullet instead of four, so you're wrong about that [1] [2] Madara wasn't just an Uchiha, he was the greatest Uchiha in the history of ever. His katon attacks were revered as being _out of the ordinary_, and there was no reason for this one to be any different. The reason they didn't appear to do much damage is because a) Tsunade is pretty durable and b) because her regeneration began healing her the moment the flame projectiles made impact



> Kages weren't hit by that Katon. Or they would be dead afterwards. Goemon isn't Katon. It is Katon+Futon+Oil performed by 3 Sage Mode users. 3 Sage-lvl tech combined into one. Tsunade is going to suffer tremendous damage. Overheated burning oil. I repeat it again - a lake of overheated burning oil. If Tsunade gets caught - she is dead in my opinion. She wouldn't be able to move and escape. Her tech would be busy healing up crazy full-body burns and her body would still be in bad conditions receiving non-stop damage. Her eyes would also be damaged.



No they wouldn't. They're Kage, they aren't going to be defeated by a single katon. And they had to be hit by that katon: Given that it was about 20-30 times the size of Madara's Susano'o, which was already about 10 times the size of him . . well, it was colossal. Not even the mokuton branches overhead could have protected them from a technique so large and so spread out. Given how there is fire all around Onoki on _this panel_, there is definitely room to argue that they were hit off-panel.

Also, I don't doubt she would take grievous injury, and obviously if she just sat inside the lava her regeneration would die eventually, but given that this is fucking Tsunade we're talking about, she just jumps out of the lava's reach. Of course, I don't believe she'll even be hit. As Jiraiya fires it at her, Sakura punches the ground and its goes flying in the opposite direction. 



> Odama Rasengan alone would deal more damage than a combination of all attacks she was hit at that battle. She got parts of her chest messed up. Odama Rasengan is going to wreck her whole body. Can she heal from one OR? Likely. Would she be able to heal fast enough for Jiraiya to not follow up with something else? Nope. Would she be able to heal from that without using a large amount of chakra? Nope.



It would do a lot of damage yes, but to say it exceeds that in which she took against Madara might be pushing it. She took what - 7 blows? And they were all critical and required excessive regeneration. And anyway, like I said before that was only with a week or two's worth of regen, with a month, or a few years? She'd laugh that damage off. If Tsunade can survive with no legs and half her guts spilled over a tree long enough for Madara to travel from her battlefield to Naruto's, then she can definitely survive an Odama Rasengan long enough for her _instantaneous_ regeneration to patch her up afterwards. Jiraiya won't even get the chance to follow up while she's healing since she'll regenerate fully within seconds.



Axiom said:


> Well, I don't agree that Jiraiya would be fucked if Frog Song was restricted, but that aside, I disagree with this even more.  Why on Earth would Jiraiya not be able to use Frog Song?  He can always make Sage Clones to distract the ladies, and can confuse them by blocking LoS and hiding in shadows and what have you, he can summon toads to leap away from the duo faster than they can chase, but even that isn't necessary because Jiraiya himself can just dance around them with his speed and reflexes.  The speed gap here is large enough to the point that if Jiraiya sets his mind on using Frog Song, he can easily dance around them using his speed and KB's.
> 
> And the open location doesn't matter.  Sound genjutsu works in open locations.



Because it requires preparation - which he's not going to achieve whenever both Tsunade are Sakura and ground pounding constantly. Especially given the scale of Sakura's _massive_ ground attacks, Jiraiya will not find the time to run away and prep a genjutsu. If he hides inside shadows or dances around them he's just asking to be blasted into the air by a super punch to the ground. 

If he tries to run away on a toad Tsunade chases after him using her super leaps that allowed her to traverse a larger distance than a flying Onoki in a shorter amount of time 

I'm not actually sure if he's able to produce shadow clones in Sage Mode (are his shadow clones able to harness natural energy correctly whenever even the real Jiraiya cannot do so properly?). Even if he is, Sakura punches the ground and they go poof, or else Katsuyu clones; of which there can be thousands, take them on while either Tsunade/Sakura attacks the real Jiraiya.​​


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 3, 2013)

Are you all reading the manga?


I mean we have Tsunade who is at least by herself could give Jiriyia a decent match. Then you add  Sakkura who is as strong maybe even stronger than Sakura, I mean this is an insult and what's more embarrassing is the responses , 

Remember on top of being pretty good combatants these are two of the best support ninjas and Tsunade has insane Durablity feats, she survived being cut in half what does Jiriyia even have in his aresenal capable off killing her and we can imagine Sakura herself could replicate that feat , Also knowledge hurts here as Tsunade should have a good deal of knowledge on Jiriyia and Sakura with Knowldge has shown to be a good battle tactician able to come up with plans to exploit the enemies weakness she's a very perceptive ninja, I mean Jiriyia is very strong and would most certainly defeat either one in a one on one match based upon what we've seen, but Jiriyia ain't beating Tsuande 2x ,


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## tanman (Jun 3, 2013)

Start Jiraiya in base and I would call him Tsunade's equal, but give him the massive advantage of starting in SM and I feel pretty confident that he'll clean up. With Jiraiya's higher speed and comparable strength, her regeneration is the only significant thing Tsunade has over him and Jiraiya is made to counter that sort of thing.

Sakura is nothing but hype right now. Based on feats, there's nothing stop Jiraiya from offing her at any time.


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## Doge (Jun 3, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> In fact I think the only way Jiraiya can put them down is by using _Yomi Numa_, but even then I'm willing to believe that Sakura could strike the mud so hard that it splashes into the air and knocks both her and Tsunade free from its grasp. They can also rely on Katsuyu to elevate themselves out of the mud.



I don't think Yomi Numa can be countered so easily.  Even drugged, base Jiraiya was able to halfway submerge Orochimaru's snake summons, naturally Sage Mode Jiraiya would be able to put out a much larger Yomi Numa than drugged J man.

Also, what good would splashing Yomi Numa do?  I'd doubt even if Sakura punched as hard as she did the ground last chapter, it would be sufficient to completely get rid of the swamp.  In addition, since the swamp is basically a very sticky mud, would the force of the punch actually send the mud flying enough to displace an appropriate amount?  I would highly doubt Sakura could get the force distributed so a large portion of it goes.  Especially considering the fact it's a sticky mud and not a hard surface like the ground.

A partial removal of it wouldn't solve what happens when the swamp comes back into position and fills up the hole left by her. 

And wouldn't Katsuya be submerged in the swamp too?


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## Doge (Jun 3, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Are you all reading the manga?
> 
> 
> I mean we have Tsunade who is at least by herself could give Jiriyia a decent match. Then you add  Sakkura who is as strong maybe even stronger than Sakura, I mean this is an insult and what's more embarrassing is the responses ,
> ...



They just don't have answers to a Sage Mode enhanced Yomi Numa, Oil Flame Bomb, and Frog Song.

Look at the size of the Yomi Numa used by DRUGGED base Jiraiya.  That one was probably bigger than Sakura's shockwave from arguably the strongest punch shown by either of the two, on a piece of solid rock that well distributes the shockwave.  Not nearly big enough to stop Yomi Numa.

Tsunade will go Byakogou as soon as the Oil enhanced katon is used, and Sakura will have released the Yin seal against Yomi Numa.

Finally, Ma and Pa can prepare Frog Song while all this is going on.  Remember how Ma and Pa were prepping it against Pain when they fought him with Naruto?


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 3, 2013)

Jiraiya wins w/ his steel hair & Yomi numa in combinatioin, ripping Tsunade in half, submerging her lower portion &  skewering the upper.


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## Winchester Gospel (Jun 3, 2013)

I'm not sure. We still don't really know the full extent of byakugō's power, and if it's meant to be a parallel to sage mode, as in another form that's not just for healing and sōzō saisei, then I think Tsunade and Sakura shouldn't necessarily be outclassed in their overall dexterity and performance when all three are using their releases.

I think that could make sense from a storytelling perspective, but without it, it's going to take a lot to make me believe that Sakura's base abilities are enough to handle herself in a fight of this level. 

Jiraiya with sage mode is fast, durable, and resourceful enough that I don't think either of these two can kill him easily through indirect means. That might be fine for Tsunade since she's immensely skilled and a Kage in her own right, but it takes away Sakura's greatest advantage against high tiers, which is the enemy's inability to approach her without succumbing to the rock and debris she kicks up every time she moves to attack.

If that's an accurate understanding of the difference in their levels, I don't think Sakura will survive to make a lasting impact. Tsunade's strong enough to keep up with Jiraiya, and she's also capable of protecting Sakura somewhat, but between clones, summons, and high level projectiles and genjutsu, I think the Toad Sage's ability to separate them and pick off the weaker character are greater than Tsunade's ability to counter him—she can multitask on attack and defense with Katsuyu, but then if Sakura is relying on Katsuyu the entire battle, she's reducing her own efficiency. And then I'd have to wonder why she was present in the first place.

Focusing on Jiraiya vs. Tsunade, I don't think there's anything wrong with thinking that Tsunade can handle any of Jiraiya's techniques on their own: after all, his ordinary sage attacks probably won't kill her through sōzō saisei, his capture techniques can be defended from somewhat with clever use of her strength and summoning, and it's implied that she's got the same sealing style as the rest of the Konoha elite, so it's possible that she could undo Jiraiya's techniques should he manage to place one on her.

The problem is with thinking that Tsunade will run through each and every one of these attacks without leaving even the slightest of openings for Jiraiya to exploit: yes, she can kill Jiraiya with one punch and regenerate from basic attacks like goemon, rasengan, and kibari senbon, but he can stun her with kawazu naki, seal her with gogyō fūin, paralyse her with kageayatsuri, transform her with kaeru, or trap her with any of yomi numa, gamaguchi shibari, or gama hyōrō—none of these methods pay any heed to the supposedly unbridgeable healing gap she creates with her jutsu, with one capable of stopping it altogether, and one capable of killing her even with it still on.

The point is that he's _every bit as dangeorus as she is_ in close-quarters combat. Sure, he's not as efficient, as he can't really kill her instantly the way she can with him. But that's not a deciding factor because Jiraiya also isn't as alone as she is. He's already getting three moves to every one from Tsunade with just Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders, and he gets even more with shadow clones and special summonings.

Tsunade has Sakura, but until we see the next few chapters, I'm not yet convinced she's fighting in a match that's an accurate representation of her abilities. Tsunade also has Katsuyu, but yomi numa is every bit as anti-summon as Tsunade's fists. And it's important to note that Jiraiya's done something by using that technique even if he hasn't beat Tsunade completely: he's taken the precious ground - one of her powerful taijutsu style's greatest assets - away from her, he's created a ready opening for a follow-up technique, and he's forced her to use time and chakra struggling against it, or summoning and reverse summoning her way out. That _matters_.

If all else fails, Jiraiya can retreat and bide for magen: gamarinshō. Tsunade and Sakura can stop him from this, but even on an open plain it's going to be difficult because he's one of the trickiest players around. He escaped from the Rinnegan, his ordinary movement speed likely surpasses their own, he's a sensor with the ability to blind them with fūton: sunabokori and transform or escape or attack, with jutsu like ranji shigami which was fast enough to blitz Pain from a distance and capable of dismembering a shinobi entirely with no regard for their healing factor, all without them knowing. He _can_, and _will_ fool them.

I'm not saying Jiraiya's side definitely wins, and I'm also not going to pretend that I know enough about Sakura's current level to properly evaluate this match-up—for all we know, our opinions on everything could flip entirely come the release of the next chapter. All I'm saying is that this is hardly a stomp. It has the potential to be a tough fight for either side.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 3, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Odama Rasengan or Goemon is no more horrific than the damage Tsunade was taking against Madara. There's absolutely no reason to doubt her regeneration's limits other than sheer cynicism.



In the case of Goemon the damage is continuous. Tsunade can't put out oil, it will cling to her and continue burning.

It's like being hit with pseudo-Amaterasu.



> Also, Yomi Numa doesn't even inflict damage, so why would she need to heal herself? She either summons Katsuyu or Sakura punches them out.



Sakura cannot counter Yomi Numa. It's adhesive enough to effectively paralyze a giant snake.

Sakura's strength, while terrifying, is exclusive to striking, which does her no good if she can't even rear her arm back to strike.

Tsunade should be fine due to monstrous natural strength, but she'll be far too busy with Jiraiya to help Sakura.


So really the three-way-deadlock holds true for the next few chapters. Jiraiya is a bad match for them.

Tsunade can put up a good fight but Sakura needs more feats to tip it in her favor.

Sakura needs Sannin level feats, and when that happens Jiraiya will go down like Orochimaru did. 2 people greater than 1 of the same level.


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## Axiom (Jun 3, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Because it requires preparation - which he's not going to achieve whenever both Tsunade are Sakura and ground pounding constantly. Especially given the scale of Sakura's _massive_ ground attacks, Jiraiya will not find the time to run away and prep a genjutsu. If he hides inside shadows or dances around them he's just asking to be blasted into the air by a super punch to the ground.
> 
> If he tries to run away on a toad Tsunade chases after him using her super leaps that allowed her to traverse a larger distance than a flying Onoki in a shorter amount of time
> 
> I'm not actually sure if he's able to produce shadow clones in Sage Mode (are his shadow clones able to harness natural energy correctly whenever even the real Jiraiya cannot do so properly?). Even if he is, Sakura punches the ground and they go poof, or else Katsuyu clones; of which there can be thousands, take them on while either Tsunade/Sakura attacks the real Jiraiya.[/indent][/justify]



I mean, all he needs to do is just run in the opposite direction at match start.  He's faster than them and has a 30 meter head start, he's perfectly capable of avoiding the AoE of the ground pound; it had no effect on Nardo and Sauce and they weren't far behind Sakura at all.  Jiraiya is faster than both ladies and if he's focusing on running away with this large a head start, he'll never be apprehended.

Aside from that, they both can be momentarily stunned by Kawazu Naki or blasted from a far by toad combo attacks, be it with Bunta or the Ni Dai Sennin.  Goemon would stall them quite well and it will still be causing trouble for the duo even after Jiraiya has finished casting it.  Not to mention, he can block LoS and, I'll kill two birds with one stone here, make KB's in Sage Mode that can stall the duo with his impressive CQC as well as ranged tehniques like Yomi Numa, Gamayu Endan, Kibari Senbon, or Dai Endan.  So with LoS blocking and KB's to stall as well as his speed and head start, there's no doubt in my mind that he's perfectly capable of using Gamarinsho if he feels the need.

Again, I don't feel he needs to use Gamarinsho to win this but that's not the point I'm trying to make.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 3, 2013)

kresh said:


> And wouldn't Katsuya be submerged in the swamp too?


 No, silly, ...didnt U know? - Katsyuu is a completely invulnerable, inexhaustible, universal counter for any ninjutsu Tsunade cant handle - She would spawn out of it cuz shes slippery 
.

**


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## Doge (Jun 3, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> No, silly, ...didnt U know? - Katsyuu is a completely invulnerable, inexhaustible, universal counter for any ninjutsu Tsunade cant handle - She would spawn out of it cuz shes slippery
> .
> 
> **



I gotcha man, what was I thinking saying Katsuya would sink in the swamp?  

Yeah, I don't think Katsuya is a sure fire way of getting out of Yomi Numa.  She's too small and would already be stuck with the two girls.


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## Guybot2 (Jun 3, 2013)

Axiom said:


> I mean, all he needs to do is just run in the opposite direction at match start.  He's faster than them and has a 30 meter head start, he's perfectly capable of avoiding the AoE of the ground pound; it had no effect on Nardo and Sauce and they weren't far behind Sakura at all.  Jiraiya is faster than both ladies and if he's focusing on running away with this large a head start, he'll never be apprehended.
> 
> Aside from that, they both can be momentarily stunned by Kawazu Naki or blasted from a far by toad combo attacks, be it with Bunta or the Ni Dai Sennin.  Goemon would stall them quite well and it will still be causing trouble for the duo even after Jiraiya has finished casting it.  Not to mention, he can block LoS and, I'll kill two birds with one stone here, make KB's in Sage Mode that can stall the duo with his impressive CQC as well as ranged tehniques like Yomi Numa, Gamayu Endan, Kibari Senbon, or Dai Endan.  So with LoS blocking and KB's to stall as well as his speed and head start, there's no doubt in my mind that he's perfectly capable of using Gamarinsho if he feels the need.
> 
> Again, I don't feel he needs to use Gamarinsho to win this but that's not the point I'm trying to make.



Im very inclined to believe that Tsunade can punch the ground reallllllllly hard to achieve the island-buster punch.. she split the ground in half with a Finger... 
what make you think wherever j-man is, he's safe 30 meter away? lol 

Know tsunade, she gonna draw j-man in a closed combat no matter what.. everyone that she fought end up in closed combat against her.. 
Frogs are useless against her.. Period.. if j-man bring out gamba.. we all know she can swing that huge-ass sword up their ass.. 

im sure we will get to see more of sakura's newfounded feats..


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## Alex Payne (Jun 4, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> This is just more unneeded cynicism. Sasuke's technique was the same one used as Madara; albeit he only generated one bullet instead of four, so you're wrong about that [1] [2] Madara wasn't just an Uchiha, he was the greatest Uchiha in the history of ever. His katon attacks were revered as being _out of the ordinary_, and there was no reason for this one to be any different. The reason they didn't appear to do much damage is because a) Tsunade is pretty durable and b) because her regeneration began healing her the moment the flame projectiles made impact


 Sasuke's Katon is Katon: Goryuka. Madara's Katon is Katon: Ryūen Hōka. Completely different names. Sasuke's Katon was 2+ times larger. And again - Madara obviously has powerful Katons. But he has different Katons for different situations. Equaling the damage output of all his Katon to his best Katon is dumb. Tsunade didn't show anything spectacular in durability department nor her regen speed was shown to be close-to-instant. She also punched Katons off and didn't get hit properly - similarly to how Itachi got only relatively minor burns after his arm was caught inside Sasuke's Goryuka. Stop overrating her feat. That damage was nothing compared to Odama Rasengan or Goemon.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> No they wouldn't. They're Kage, they aren't going to be defeated by a single katon. And they had to be hit by that katon: Given that it was about 20-30 times the size of Madara's Susano'o, which was already about 10 times the size of him . . well, it was colossal. Not even the mokuton branches overhead could have protected them from a technique so large and so spread out. Given how there is fire all around Onoki on _this panel_, there is definitely room to argue that they were hit off-panel.
> 
> Also, I don't doubt she would take grievous injury, and obviously if she just sat inside the lava her regeneration would die eventually, but given that this is fucking Tsunade we're talking about, she just jumps out of the lava's reach. Of course, I don't believe she'll even be hit. As Jiraiya fires it at her, Sakura punches the ground and its goes flying in the opposite direction.


 What is this? Choji outright stated that Obito's Katon would have killed him. No Kage bar Raikage has durability feats to put them above Choji. Are you implying that Madara's best shown Katon is weaker that that?

What lava? Do you even know what Goemon is? It is overheated oil. It can't be punched off. Nor punching the ground would help because of its large AoE and Sages ability to channel the tech. My point is - because of high-damage and the nature of oil Tsunade would get extreme difficulties moving away.  



Godaime Tsunade said:


> It would do a lot of damage yes, but to say it exceeds that in which she took against Madara might be pushing it. She took what - 7 blows? And they were all critical and required excessive regeneration. And anyway, like I said before that was only with a week or two's worth of regen, with a month, or a few years? She'd laugh that damage off. If Tsunade can survive with no legs and half her guts spilled over a tree long enough for Madara to travel from her battlefield to Naruto's, then she can definitely survive an Odama Rasengan long enough for her _instantaneous_ regeneration to patch her up afterwards. Jiraiya won't even get the chance to follow up while she's healing since she'll regenerate fully within seconds.


 Tsunade's years worth of regen were emptied by healing from Orochimaru's attacks in Part 1. How do explain that?
I am not saying that she won't survive that. I am saying that it would take time for her to heal the damage and return to normal state. Time she doesn't have.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> Because it requires preparation - which he's not going to achieve whenever both Tsunade are Sakura and ground pounding constantly. Especially given the scale of Sakura's _massive_ ground attacks, Jiraiya will not find the time to run away and prep a genjutsu. If he hides inside shadows or dances around them he's just asking to be blasted into the air by a super punch to the ground.
> 
> If he tries to run away on a toad Tsunade chases after him using her super leaps that allowed her to traverse a larger distance than a flying Onoki in a shorter amount of time
> 
> I'm not actually sure if he's able to produce shadow clones in Sage Mode (are his shadow clones able to harness natural energy correctly whenever even the real Jiraiya cannot do so properly?). Even if he is, Sakura punches the ground and they go poof, or else Katsuyu clones; of which there can be thousands, take them on while either Tsunade/Sakura attacks the real Jiraiya.


I see that you don't remember SM Jiraiya fighting Pain. You don't know what Goemon is. You don't remember that Jiraiya used KBs. And his KBs were in Sage Mode. You don't remember SM Jiraiya's speed feats. You don't remember his hiding techs. Punching the ground, gg.


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## trance (Jun 4, 2013)

Jiraiya oneshots Sakura. 

Tsunade will give him a fight but Jiraiya has his own personal arsenal plus two toad Sages.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jun 4, 2013)

SM Jiriaya with Ma and Pa sitting there gathering natural energy.....Jiraiya wins
SM Jiraiya with Ma and Pa helping attack and etc.....they get fodderized


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## FlamingRain (Jun 4, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Sasuke's Katon is Katon: Goryuka. Madara's Katon is Katon: Ryūen Hōka. Completely different names. Sasuke's Katon was 2+ times larger. And again - Madara obviously has powerful Katons. But he has different Katons for different situations. Equaling the damage output of all his Katon to his best Katon is dumb.



The Katon are in the same shape, and he was trying to take out Kages with it- one for each. The same Kages who could withstand being smacked by Susano'o. The technique obviously had a lot of killing potential.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Narutopedia also refers to Sasuke's technique as the individual version of Madara's. 






> Tsunade didn't show anything spectacular in durability department.



Adamantine-stinging Kusanagi did less to her than a regular sword without chakra flow did to Danzo, who was durable enough to withstand one of Susano'o's punches (cuz he didn't disappear- only stood back up, thus Izanagi was not responsible):

Kusanagi barely dug into her shoulder bone then smash it-and everything around it into pieces., and if we look at the position at which Orochimaru and Tsunade are standing here then smash it-and everything around it into pieces. we can see that he stepped forward enough for the blade to have reached behind her when he was performing the diagonal slash, meaning that it should have removed her torso from her left shoulder to her right side, but it didn't.

Danzo on the other hand. . . then smash it-and everything around it into pieces., we can see that Sasuke's sword got all the way through because we even see blood coming from Danzo's back (behind his shoulder we see blood shooting diagonally away from him, and the same on his opposite side), as well as his arm having been taken off.

Magatama sent Tsunade into a large boulder so hard that Tsunade's body shattered said boulder. The impact Tsunade's body had with the boulder would have been less than the impact the actual Magatama would have had, which means that she took an attack that can easily shatter huge boulders.

So yes she does have some impressive durability.

The fact that she was able to survive Tenso no Jutsu at all is also a testament to that, because had she not been durable she would have come out as chunks of flesh on the ground.



> What is this? Choji outright stated that Obito's Katon would have killed him. No Kage bar Raikage has durability feats to put them above Choji.



What durability feats does Choji have? 



> Tsunade's years worth of regen were emptied by healing from Orochimaru's attacks in Part 1. How do explain that?



We don't know how many years she was storing it for.

The seal charges by storing excess chakra iirc. A 20 years rusty Tsunade would not give off nearly as much excess chakra as an in-shape Tsunade.

And she used an inferior technique anyway.

We've seen that the chakra an in-shape Tsunade can store in just 2 years is enough to be able to heal thousands through Katsuyu post-CST.

She can likely consciously channel chakra to that seal as well. Because if she didn't, and still had enough juice to restore Kage level chakra reserves multiple times while still fighting herself. . .then. . .idk what to say.


Though I agree Goemon is a good way to exhaust Byakugo.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 4, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Sasuke's Katon is Katon: Goryuka. Madara's Katon is Katon: Ryūen Hōka. Completely different names. Sasuke's Katon was 2+ times larger. And again - Madara obviously has powerful Katons. But he has different Katons for different situations. Equaling the damage output of all his Katon to his best Katon is dumb. Tsunade didn't show anything spectacular in durability department nor her regen speed was shown to be close-to-instant. She also punched Katons off and didn't get hit properly - similarly to how Itachi got only relatively minor burns after his arm was caught inside Sasuke's Goryuka. Stop overrating her feat. That damage was nothing compared to Odama Rasengan or Goemon.



I'm aware of that, but they look absolutely identical. Madara shot five smaller ones, whereas Sasuke shot one large one. Does that make the techniques different in nature? I highly doubt it, given that they are, again, _identical_ in appearance. Also, the katon he shot at the army wasn't his best katon, the best katon we've seen him use is the giant one he blasted at the Gokage, so I'm not equaling the damage output from his _best_ katon to all his katon, since I'm giving an example of katon thats comparatively average to his stronger variant, and yet it was still feared as being highly powerful. Also, if Tsunade can heal from the damage _at all_ then why are you even arguing that if she was hit by a bigger katon that she couldn't? (or at least I assume thats what you're trying to say). If she can regenerate from just her arms being hit by a katon, then she can regenerate from anywhere on her body being hit by a katon, its just that if her _entire_ body was scorched she would require more chakra to heal herself. 

As for durability, she's a Senju for a start. She was thrown across a country at light-speed, and told that she would be physically torn apart, and yet she remains alive and in tact after reappearing. She also tanked CST in an area of Konoha that was worst affected by the blast - and I'm going to elaborate on this before you throw a tiff

Its true that Tsunade wasn't in the center of Konoha when Pein's attack struck the village, however, I don't think the feat was or significantly less impressive despite this. She was hit by, and crushed under _gargantuan waves_ of moving rubble that had the force and momentum of the CST'S power behind them. I should add that, Tsunade had been _chasing Pein_ from the  just before he blew up Konoha, and after Konoha had been destroyed we could clearly see that the area Tsunade had been in was amongst the _worst damaged_ in the entire village. Unlike the rest of the village, which had been left in rubble, the area below the Hokage faces was _totally flattened into the crater_. Having not healed herself after being hit - taking such a blow and still moving around is pretty impressive.

And her regenerative speed is _incredibly_ fast. After taking a point blank magatama to the chest the wound was gone in just moments. After ripping out the giant swords that bisected her, the giant holes in her body were gone within seconds. Alright, so it isn't instantaneous (which was a figure of speech) but its so damn quick that it hardly matters.




> What is this? Choji outright stated that Obito's Katon would have killed him. No Kage bar Raikage has durability feats to put them above Choji. Are you implying that Madara's best shown Katon is weaker that that?



When did Chouji say this? 



> What lava? Do you even know what Goemon is? It is overheated oil. It can't be punched off. Nor punching the ground would help because of its large AoE and Sages ability to channel the tech. My point is - because of high-damage and the nature of oil Tsunade would get extreme difficulties moving away.



Overheated oil that burns like lava . . or lava. Nitpick all you want, nothing changes. Jiraiya is one of my favourite characters, and has been for the last 7 years, so I'd like to think I know what his jutsu are. And punching the ground would definitely help since Goemon's large AoE is absolutely dwarfed by that of Sakura earth punches. The large blocks of earth crashing into the air and the resulting explosion would send the technique out of Sakura/Tsunade's proximity. 



> Tsunade's years worth of regen were emptied by healing from Orochimaru's attacks in Part 1. How do explain that?



Because they weren't? Just because she released the chakra in her seal it doesn't mean she used it all for regeneration. Her base reserves were presumably pretty low after she used a _highly-chakra consuming_ healing technique, and she had been pretty tired out from chasing Kabuto and Orochimaru. She probably used the majority of the remaining chakra from her seal to summon Katsuyu, lift Gamabunta's tanto and one-shot Orochimaru with a strike to the jaw. 



> I am not saying that she won't survive that. I am saying that it would take time for her to heal the damage and return to normal state. Time she doesn't have.



Like a few seconds? I'm not sure what he can do in a few seconds that would kill her.



> I see that you don't remember SM Jiraiya fighting Pain. You don't know what Goemon is. You don't remember that Jiraiya used KBs. And his KBs were in Sage Mode. You don't remember SM Jiraiya's speed feats. You don't remember his hiding techs. Punching the ground, gg.



Pulling out the " You don't remember anything about Jiraiya " card against a die hard _Sannin_ fan. . I wish I was as cool as you.

SM Jiraiya's best speed feats consist of what, blitzing Human Path? I mean, as great as that feat is it doesn't make him a top tier speedster. Tsunade was keeping up with Base Ei and out-speeding an airborne Onoki, she's hardly slow herself, so she's perfectly capable of keeping up with the J-Man. As far as feats are concerned Sakura gets blitzed into oblivion, but I never disputed that.

At any rate, a lot of my other refutes to your arguments remain unanswered so I'll logically assume you agree with them.​​


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## Bonly (Jun 4, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> And anyway, besides the Frog Song (which he won't be able to use in such an open location against two smashy smashy opponents), is there any way Jiraiya can even put them down?



How come Jiraiya wouldn't be able to? Ma+Pa was able to use frog song in an open location just fine.





> In fact I think the only way Jiraiya can put them down is by using _Yomi Numa_, but even then I'm willing to believe that Sakura could strike the mud so hard that it splashes into the air and knocks both her and Tsunade free from its grasp. They can also rely on Katsuyu to elevate themselves out of the mud.



But wouldn't that just spread the sticky mud all of the battle if Sakura does such as well as have a good amount of said stick mud still on her and Tsunade(depending on the size of the swamp and the distance between them)? As wouldn't Katsuyu be in the swamp if they summoned her?  



> I don't believe J-Man's durability is anything worth writing home about in Sage Mode, though his resilience is excellent (his arm was chopped off and he didn't even flinch). Still, a single strike is all it takes to put J-Man down, and with their ability to tank/dodge all of his attacks it seems like it would only be a matter of time before he was hit. Tsunade would obviously do most of the fighting, but evidently Sakura's hulk punches are of significant use in blocking some of his techniques.
> 
> I actually think the ladies win this, albeit with a lot of difficulty.



But how would they get a hit on him though? He has the Ma+Pa with frog song to stop their movements and he has the swamp to stop their movements  which may only stop them for a short amount of time, said time can be put to good use. Jiraiya was somehow able to use his Kekkai: Gama Hyōrō to trap animal path with only one arm with six set of Rinnegan eyes on him trying to kill him in a more open area of Amegakure. Don't you think he might be able to take advantage of their halted movements to catch one of them?


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## Alex Payne (Jun 4, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The Katon are in the same shape, and he was trying to take out Kages with it- one for each. The same Kages who could withstand being smacked by Susano'o. The technique obviously had a lot of killing potential.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


 If Madara got a clean hit with each of them fire dragons - I agree that Mei or Onoki would've been gravely injured, Gaara's got his shield and A's durable body would save him. Tsunade simply redirected them and only her fists received a fraction of potential damage. His Katon might be on the level of Sasuke's Goryukas or even better. But it never connected properly. So it's not that good of a feat in my opinion. Narutopedia often speculates a lot. The names are too different imo.




FlamingRain said:


> Adamantine-stinging Kusanagi did less to her than a regular sword without chakra flow did to Danzo, who was durable enough to withstand one of Susano'o's punches (cuz he didn't disappear- only stood back up, thus Izanagi was not responsible):
> 
> Kusanagi barely dug into her shoulder bone they would have been completely beaten, and if we look at the position at which Orochimaru and Tsunade are standing here they would have been completely beaten we can see that he stepped forward enough for the blade to have reached behind her when he was performing the diagonal slash, meaning that it should have removed her torso from her left shoulder to her right side, but it didn't.
> 
> ...


 Tsunade wasn't the target of Orochimaru's attack. Orochimaru used his head/neck and simply wanted to get her out of the way. Sasuke on the other hand - was bloodlusted, used his sword properly and wanted to kill Danzo. I can't see how those two instances are comparable. Kakashi got kicked _through_ one(or several) massive trees. And simply shrugged off that kind of damage. P1 Sasuke without CS got smacked into a solid rock. That kind of durability is "normal" for Narutoverse. Tsunade breaking a relatively large boulder from Magatama's kinetic force isn't something _truly_ spectacular if you look at the above feats.



FlamingRain said:


> The fact that she was able to survive Tenso no Jutsu at all is also a testament to that, because had she not been durable she would have come out as chunks of flesh on the ground.


 That's the only notable thing with her durability. Good but vague. 4th Raikage himself wasn't supposed to be able to use the tech - yet he got through without any injuries. It is possible that she activated Sozo Saisei before getting transported and not after. It looks like she stopped her tech to me, considering her seal returned into original form. And that makes it a good regeneration feat and not durability feat. 





FlamingRain said:


> What durability feats does Choji have?


Point-blank battlefield-wide shockwave from Gedo Mazo. No injuries.




FlamingRain said:


> We don't know how many years she was storing it for.
> 
> The seal charges by storing excess chakra iirc. A 20 years rusty Tsunade would not give off nearly as much excess chakra as an in-shape Tsunade.
> 
> ...



High-speed regeneration of full-body damage done by high-end offense should logically cost a shitload of chakra. Healing and restoring someone's stamina is one thing. But regeneration of that level takes massive amount of chakra. Which is evident by the fact that Tsunade needs her seal to use regen battle. Seal that took Sakura 3 years to complete. Seal that supposedly has more chakra than her own natural reserves(and those are pretty damn good). We saw her limit against Madara+what she spend to survive transportation. And we can't properly scale from her CST-healing because of unknown numbers of saved people and the fact that it was channeled-healing. High-scale healing. But still healing. Not regeneration.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'm aware of that, but they look absolutely identical. Madara shot five smaller ones, whereas Sasuke shot one large one. Does that make the techniques different in nature? I highly doubt it, given that they are, again, _identical_ in appearance. Also, the katon he shot at the army wasn't his best katon, the best katon we've seen him use is the giant one he blasted at the Gokage, so I'm not equaling the damage output from his _best_ katon to all his katon, since I'm giving an example of katon thats comparatively average to his stronger variant, and yet it was still feared as being highly powerful. Also, if Tsunade can heal from the damage _at all_ then why are you even arguing that if she was hit by a bigger katon that she couldn't? (or at least I assume thats what you're trying to say). If she can regenerate from just her arms being hit by a katon, then she can regenerate from anywhere on her body being hit by a katon, its just that if her _entire_ body was scorched she would require more chakra to heal herself.


 They aren't identical. Madara's are smaller. And you can't compare being _hit_ by a high-speed concentrated fireball and have your hand contact it for a brief moment. Take a spoon, heat it with a lighter and touch it quickly. Or have the same hot spoon pressed unto your belly with a good amount of force. I think that you'd get different amount of "damage".



Godaime Tsunade said:


> As for durability, she's a Senju for a start. She was thrown across a country at light-speed, and told that she would be physically torn apart, and yet she remains alive and in tact after reappearing. She also tanked CST in an area of Konoha that was worst affected by the blast - and I'm going to elaborate on this before you throw a tiff
> 
> Its true that Tsunade wasn't in the center of Konoha when Pein's attack struck the village, however, I don't think the feat was or significantly less impressive despite this. She was hit by, and crushed under _gargantuan waves_ of moving rubble that had the force and momentum of the CST'S power behind them. I should add that, Tsunade had been _chasing Pein_ from the  just before he blew up Konoha, and after Konoha had been destroyed we could clearly see that the area Tsunade had been in was amongst the _worst damaged_ in the entire village. Unlike the rest of the village, which had been left in rubble, the area below the Hokage faces was _totally flattened into the crater_. Having not healed herself after being hit - taking such a blow and still moving around is pretty impressive.


 I already answered the point about Mabui's tech. There was some fodder ANBU right besides Tsunade. He was fine. I guess we have ANBU with high-end durability feat, eh. Good day for ANBU fans. Katsuyu+channeled healing protected Tsunade. Not durability. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> And her regenerative speed is _incredibly_ fast. After taking a point blank magatama to the chest the wound was gone in just moments. After ripping out the giant swords that bisected her, the giant holes in her body were gone within seconds. Alright, so it isn't instantaneous (which was a figure of speech) but its so damn quick that it hardly matters.


 Tsunade was never hit by attacks with magnitude of Jiraiya's level. Never hit by attacks that continuously damage her whole body. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> When did Chouji say this?


 Here.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> Overheated oil that burns like lava . . or lava. Nitpick all you want, nothing changes. Jiraiya is one of my favourite characters, and has been for the last 7 years, so I'd like to think I know what his jutsu are. And punching the ground would definitely help since Goemon's large AoE is absolutely dwarfed by that of Sakura earth punches. The large blocks of earth crashing into the air and the resulting explosion would send the technique out of Sakura/Tsunade's proximity.


 Completely different substances. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Because they weren't? Just because she released the chakra in her seal it doesn't mean she used it all for regeneration. Her base reserves were presumably pretty low after she used a _highly-chakra consuming_ healing technique, and she had been pretty tired out from chasing Kabuto and Orochimaru. She probably used the majority of the remaining chakra from her seal to summon Katsuyu, lift Gamabunta's tanto and one-shot Orochimaru with a strike to the jaw.


 So what? Years worth of chakra storage = one boss summon, one lifting exercise and one punch? Tsunade, I am disappoint.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 4, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Like a few seconds? I'm not sure what he can do in a few seconds that would kill her.


 Yomi Numa, gg.





Godaime Tsunade said:


> Pulling out the " You don't remember anything about Jiraiya " card against a die hard _Sannin_ fan. . I wish I was as cool as you.


 It's pretty easy actually. Stop being a Tsunade-fan and be Kakashi-fan. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> SM Jiraiya's best speed feats consist of what, blitzing Human Path? I mean, as great as that feat is it doesn't make him a top tier speedster. Tsunade was keeping up with Base Ei and out-speeding an airborne Onoki, she's hardly slow herself, so she's perfectly capable of keeping up with the J-Man. As far as feats are concerned Sakura gets blitzed into oblivion, but I never disputed that.


 She can keep up. But she is slower. If he tried to run away and create some distance - she wouldn't be able to follow him. And that's just speed. Not speed+shit that Jiraiya+Ma+Pa can throw at her while moving away.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> At any rate, a lot of my other refutes to your arguments remain unanswered so I'll logically assume you agree with them.


 I like to address actual arguments.



A long time since I was forced to split my post into parts.
Punching the ground, gg.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 4, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Tsunade wasn't the target of Orochimaru's attack. Orochimaru used his head/neck and simply wanted to get her out of the way. Sasuke on the other hand - was bloodlusted, used his sword properly and wanted to kill Danzo. I can't see how those two instances are comparable.



He just said he was about to kill her right before he performed the slash.

I also wouldn't consider Orochimaru's neck muscles inferior to base Sasuke's arm muscles given his ability to push KN4 into a cliff and not simply push his own head back in the opposite direction.

Surely Kusanagi's sharpness more than makes up for whatever difference in muscle strength there might be.



> Kakashi got kicked _through_ one(or several) massive trees. And simply shrugged off that kind of damage. P1 Sasuke without CS got smacked into a solid rock. That kind of durability is "normal" for Narutoverse. Tsunade breaking a relatively large boulder from Magatama's kinetic force isn't something _truly_ spectacular if you look at the above feats.



Breaking through a dead tree doesn't require nearly as much force as shattering a boulder.

Sasuke's seems more like he just would have gotten stuck in the boulder as opposed to smashing it.

The damage Tsunade's body caused the boulder after being hit by Magatama looks far more similar to the damage Asuma's body caused after being hit by Choji solid rock.

If you don't see it as "_truly_ spectacular" I guess that's just that, but I think it clear she's got much more than "normal" durability.



> That's the only notable thing with her durability. Good but vague. 4th Raikage himself wasn't supposed to be able to use the tech - yet he got through without any injuries. It is possible that she activated Sozo Saisei before getting transported and not after. It looks like she stopped her tech to me, considering her seal returned into original form. And that makes it a good regeneration feat and not durability feat.



She doesn't have Sozo Saisei activated when Mabui initiates the technique. stopped

She both releases the seal and the technique in the scan you provided, and is healing when Mei arrives, with the seal only regressing after Mei begins speaking.

And really I don't think Tsunade would actually have to call out the name of the technique to turn it off. That just wouldn't make sense imo.



> Point-blank battlefield-wide shockwave from Gedo Mazo. No injuries.



But that's a giant Choji, whereas the Choji that thought he would be roasted was his normal human size.

Being made out of the same material, and just becoming thicker in correlation with his size increase- the Choji that withstood that shock from Gedo Mazo should be far and beyond the one that believed Obito's Katon would have roasted him.

I'm not too sure Obito's Katon would have killed the Choji that withstood that attack from GM. . .quickly anyways.



> High-speed regeneration of full-body damage done by high-end offense should logically cost a shitload of chakra. Healing and restoring someone's stamina is one thing. But regeneration of that level takes massive amount of chakra. Which is evident by the fact that Tsunade needs her seal to use regen battle. Seal that took Sakura 3 years to complete. Seal that supposedly has more chakra than her own natural reserves(and those are pretty damn good). We saw her limit against Madara+what she spend to survive transportation. And we can't properly scale from her CST-healing because of unknown numbers of saved people and the fact that it was channeled-healing. High-scale healing. But still healing. Not regeneration.



The chakra is only used up as she's taking damage though, which she was not doing against Orochimaru.

It doesn't constantly speed up all of the cells in her body, it only does that in the areas that have taken damage.

Are you saying Sakura's natural reserves are good?  Or Tsunade's? In Tsunade's case the seal seems to hold as much as her base reserves- as she was healing the villagers in base before CST, and then used up her seal to heal them afterwards. So I would believe the amount of chakra is roughly the same as her natural reserve of chakra.

We didn't really see her limit against Madara because so much of the fight happened off panel. We don't know what happened.

But we do see that she held out longer than at least 3 of the other Kages.


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