# Lucifer SMT vs The Counter Actor



## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 20, 2012)

Who wins this one?


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 20, 2012)

How multiversal is the Counter-Actor? From what I remeber of Tenchi Muyo, it's not really that possible to quantify how multiversal they are.


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## Əyin (May 20, 2012)

Replace SMT Lucifer with Lucifer Morningstar and we have a fair match


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 21, 2012)

AntiReality said:


> Replace SMT Lucifer with Lucifer Morningstar and we have a fair match



Can you tell me why? Again, from what I remember it isn't really that easy to quantify how multiversal the Counter Actor is.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (May 21, 2012)

stronger than the chousin


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## Eldritch Sukima (May 21, 2012)

Doesn't the Tenchiverse consist of thirteen or so universes? Not particularly impressive by SMT standards, I'd think.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (May 21, 2012)

12 multiverses


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 21, 2012)

And how many universes are in those multiverses?

Because that's still not that impressive by SMT standards.


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## Coston (May 21, 2012)

Each multiverse is an infinite multiverse on their own.

The higher dimension is infinitely bigger and complex than the previous.

Each is governed by a D and Ds are created by the Chousin.

And there are 22 of them in a recent thread created by Garv, the higher one is infinitely stronger than the lower one.

So what can YHVH do against the Ds let alone Chousin?

Plus Chousin is bigger than the megaverse they created, plus also the one created time and space.

Like AntiReality said, brought the likes IG, 616 MJJ and Lucifer Morningstar, Micheal Demiurges in and we will have a fight.


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## Fang (May 21, 2012)

There's no "megaverse" in Tenchi Muyo and Lucifer shit stomps.


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## Azrael Finalstar (May 21, 2012)

Supposedly, each layer has its own infinite set of universes. We've already seen more than one universe in the third dimension. IIRC Z stated that their were infinite universes.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 21, 2012)

I've seen the episode where Z, the Chousin, Kami Tenchi etc. show up and not once is infinite universes mentioned. Just some vague stuff about each dimension being more complex.

I'm still not seeing anything that puts them on the level of Lucifer.


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## Coston (May 21, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> I've seen the episode where Z, the Chousin, Kami Tenchi etc. show up and not once is infinite universes mentioned. Just some vague stuff about each dimension being more complex.
> 
> I'm still not seeing anything that puts them on the level of Lucifer.



Z stated that there are an infinite amount of universes in each dimension, GXP, Dual and Isekai are part of Tenchiverse that takes place in alternate, parallel or different universes.

Masaki also stated even Isekai takes place in a different universe too.

Heck, look at Z's past and you will know.

@TWF: Multiple multiverses =/= Megaverse? So YHVH is multiversal too? Nice try, TWF, and you're downplay the hell out of YHVH and Lucifer too.

Unless we keep it down to In-universe.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 21, 2012)

Scans showing Z saying this?

Because I don't remember it. I remember there being a multiverse, yes. But nothing about infinite universes.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 21, 2012)

I just saw the OVA in my DVD and Z said "infinitely linked universes"...take that as you will.


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## TedMk2 (May 21, 2012)

And there was me thinking that Lucifer Morningstar and SMT Lucifer were in the same league and would make for a good match. So much for that


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 21, 2012)

What are you talking about Lucifer Morning star would murder the Chousin.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 21, 2012)

Okay, I want to be clear about something.

Did he say "*infinite* linked universes"? Or "*infinitely* linked universes".

Because the way I'm seeing it now, it only refers to the connections between universes. Not the universes themselves.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 21, 2012)

infinitely linked universes.


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## Coston (May 21, 2012)

@LHW: Nope, Lucifer Morningstar and Micheal Demiurges VS Chousin would be a great match.

Beside, Z himself travels between dimensions and universes too.

@ThanatoSeraph: Like I said, just watch Isekai, Dual and GXP, they pretty much explain everything.


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## Eldritch Sukima (May 21, 2012)

Coston said:


> Like I said, just watch Isekai, Dual and GXP, they pretty much explain everything.



Why should we have to watch several entire series just to find proof for _your_ claim? You made the claim, so you have to provide the proof.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 21, 2012)

Z did say the universes were infinitely linked.


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## Coston (May 21, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Why should we have to watch several entire series just to find proof for _your_ claim? You made the claim, so you have to provide the proof.



This is for Tenchi Muyo, you don't need to watch serveral entire series.

For Isekai, Ep 1, 2 and 13.

Dual, Ep 1 and last Episode.

GXP, Ep 1, 2 and last Episode.

[YOUTUBE]gopKBzWKyLc[/YOUTUBE]

0:00 to 2:40

[YOUTUBE]OjS0j6t6fMs[/YOUTUBE]

3:50 - 4:20

[YOUTUBE]7265lSqIdfw[/YOUTUBE]

1:20 - 1:32

1:40 - 2:00

The Ds can create and destroy universe(s), the higher one infinitely stronger than the lower, there are at least 22 of them, imagine how ridiculous is the Chousin.

2:30 - 6:30

[YOUTUBE]jgzBekr8eGI[/YOUTUBE]

2:10 - 3:30

Seriously, where the hell is EM when we need him?


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 21, 2012)

> Seriously, where the hell is EM when we need him?


the old workhorse has earned rest


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## Voyeur (May 21, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Doesn't the Tenchiverse consist of thirteen or so universes? Not particularly impressive by SMT standards, I'd think.



Washu had a jar containing 12 universes for a science project, I wouldn't just limit the number of universes to just that.

That being said, since the counter actor was at a higher dimension than the Chousin, I think she takes this.

Also, weren't the D's agreed to be Cube-being level?


*Spoiler*: __ 




Won't be surprised if this thread turns in to a shit storm about how many universes/multiverses Tenchi Muyo has.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 21, 2012)

Being at school, I can't watch the videos right now. However, saying that x>y by a large amount doesn't tell us by how much they are stronger. Its unquantifiable.

I can imagine how strong they are, but that's just it. Our imagination.

Is there anything more quantifiable?


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 21, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Being at school, I can't watch the videos right now. However, saying that x>y by a large amount doesn't tell us by how much they are stronger. Its unquantifiable.
> 
> I can imagine how strong they are, but that's just it. Our imagination.
> 
> Is there anything more quantifiable?



I think even EM said the universe is Tenchi muyo verse was unknown at the moment. Z said they were infinitely linked but he may have been wrong.


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## Fang (May 21, 2012)

Coston said:


> @TWF: Multiple multiverses =/= Megaverse? So YHVH is multiversal too? Nice try, TWF, and you're downplay the hell out of YHVH and Lucifer too.
> 
> Unless we keep it down to In-universe.



What are you babbling about. We know multiple groups of "universes" exist outside of even the Amala Universe (which itself is constantly billions of universes being created, destroyed, and reborn), which serves as a testing ground for YHVH to fuck with. The Conception and those that fail that, the multiverses of Devil Survivor I and II, the Schwartzwelt and real universe in IV/SJ, as well as Digital Devil Saga and Persona, yeah, Tenchi Muyo has nothing on that.

Hell YHVH's personal little sock puppet Kagautschi exists in worlds outside of the Amala Universe.

Try again with the strawman.


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## Garv (May 22, 2012)

Coston said:


> Like I said, just watch Isekai, Dual and GXP, they pretty much explain everything.


GXP is not a parallel universe. On the other hand, Isekai and Dual are parallel universes.
- All this is a three-dimensional universes, they do not belong to the higher dimensions or lower dimensions.
- The level of human technology allows you to travel between universes.
- People can not understand the information about the higher dimensions and they can not exist in higher dimensions due to the fact that their mind can not stand it.


The conclusion, the third dimension contains many universes on their own. Yeah, Z says "infinitely linked universes" or "infinite interconnected universes"(IIRC in dub ova 19/ova 3 ep 6).


Voyeur said:


> Also, weren't the D's agreed to be Cube-being level?


It's quite strange, considering that D3 should be >>> Z >>> Zinv (which can affect two normal 3d universes at once).
And D3 in the third dimension is only the head, his body/true body was beyond all dimensions in hyperdimension along with all other Ds'.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 22, 2012)

After having watched the videos, I see nothing pointing towards infinite universes barring one statement from Z that is far too vague to draw any conclusions from.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 22, 2012)

If each dimension contained many universes that would mean that Z would have Multiversal durability since he said he needed the shattering of the third dimension to be put down.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 22, 2012)

IIRC, all Z said was that it would take the destruction of "this universe". Nothing about the 3rd dimension.


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## Coston (May 22, 2012)

@Fang: I know the number of multiverses that YHVH controls are likely dozens.

But the point is... YHVH won't pass the 3D let alone 4D and higher Ds.

@ThanatoSeparh: Or you just look into statements, I don't think he is lying considered his status.

@Voyeur: Wrong, each D not only an observer but also holds absolute authority on every universes in the dimension they looked over.

The idea each D is a Cube Being is from along time ago. Now, each of them is multiversal and the higher one is infinitely stronger than the lower one.

Heck, even a 4D being, regardless how weak it is, is infinitely stronger than any 3D beings. 

The same goes to the 3D, he is no expection (I may a little exaggerated about this part, though).


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 22, 2012)

I never said Z was lying. I said his statement is far too vague to draw any sort of conclusions from. Most of those videos were completely irrelevant too.

And the idea of YHVH not even making it past the 3Ds is just... Utterly absurd.

I have no idea what went through your head when you typed that.


With that, I'm off to bed. Night.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 22, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> IIRC, all Z said was that it would take the destruction of "this universe". Nothing about the 3rd dimension.



I have the original DVD and he said it would destroy this world. Also coston you are the only person in the OBD who believes the D's to be multiversal.


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## Coston (May 22, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> I never said Z was lying. I said his statement is far too vague to draw any sort of conclusions from. Most of those videos were completely irrelevant too.
> 
> And the idea of YHVH not even making it past the 3Ds is just... *Utterly absurd.*
> 
> ...



Just because can't make it through =/= win.

Ds' body is in Hyperdimension and outside the multiverse.

So far, I haven't seen any feats show where YHVH affect higher dimension(s).

Each D is basically the strongest being in their own dimension, there are also many dimensions within 3D Dimension and many parallel universes in each universe (Dual).

Like I said, if the video don't do the justice, we still have statements.



Light Hawk Wings said:


> I have the original DVD and he said it would destroy this world. Also coston you are the only person in the OBD who believes the D's to be multiversal.



Since when each dimension is a universe? Each D rules over the dimension they look over, plus 3D is much stronger than the likes Zinv and Idol.

Zinv is low-multiversal, Idol is 81 times stronger than it, tell me are they Multiversal or not? And 3D too, if he is universal then you have no idea what are you saying.

And Z means the destruction of the entire 3D Multiverse.

It would be a great help if Riverlia is here too.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 22, 2012)

Z has Multiversal durability now?


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## Garv (May 22, 2012)

Z has "this world" level durability now.


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## Coston (May 22, 2012)

Light Hawk Wings said:


> Z has Multiversal durability now?



5 LHW compared to Zinv, who survived the destruction of 2 universe with 2 LHW.

Of course, via feats Z's DC is star/planet level+.

Anyway, this is depend on how you look at his statement.

Like Garv said, for short.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 22, 2012)

YYHW created billions of universes according to some people here.


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## Garv (May 22, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> I never said Z was lying. I said his statement is far too vague to draw any sort of conclusions from.



Based on what is has been shown in Dual, universes in TM are constructed on the principle of many-worlds interpretation.


*Spoiler*: __ 



22 years ago, a huge alien artifact is found on a construction site by a worker named Yotsuga. The foreman orders that the artifact be broken apart so as to avoid delays. As Yotsuga walks towards the dumpsters to dispose of a small piece of the artifact, the world splits into two; in one world, Yotsuga tosses away the piece and the artifact is destroyed; in the other, Yotsuga keeps the artifact, leading to the discovery of extraterrestrial technology that changes history.






*Spoiler*: __ 



Prior to many-worlds, reality had always been viewed as a single unfolding history. Many-worlds, however, views reality as a many-branched tree, wherein every possible quantum outcome is realised. Many-worlds claims to reconcile the observation of non-deterministic events, such as the random radioactive decay, with the fully deterministic equations of quantum physics.
In many-worlds, the subjective appearance of wavefunction collapse is explained by the mechanism of quantum decoherence, which resolves all of the correlation paradoxes of quantum theory, such as the EPR paradox and Schr?dinger's cat, since every possible outcome of every event defines or exists in its own "history" or "world". In lay terms, there is a very large—perhaps infinite—number of universes, and everything that could possibly have happened in our past, but did not, has occurred in the past of some other universe or universes.




Various possibilities exist for any event at a time. Multiverse as a many-branched tree. There is no need to create separate universes. The Multiverse is divided by the parallel universes in itself. The number of universes is equal to the number of probabilities, and tends to infinity or it = infinity (given the eternity of time). This is the same concept is used in the Noein (for example).




Light Hawk Wings said:


> Also coston you are the only person in the OBD who believes the D's to be multiversal.


Well, I also think that the D's are multiversals. IIRC, Riverlia agree with this too.




Coston said:


> Heck, even a 4D being, regardless how weak it is, is infinitely stronger than any 3D beings.
> 
> The same goes to the 3D, he is no expection (I may a little exaggerated about this part, though).


Well, technically we can say that a cube(3d space) is infinitely more complex than a square(2d space) 

About the higher dimensions:


*Spoiler*: __ 





> _However, the definitions of God here were different from what Earthlings like Tenchi believe in. The God they said was awe the supernatural like, aliens who had the technique of flying between stars, a different dimensional life form and a high dimensional intelligent life form. At this point, what they call God is not the same as what a prime-intelligent life form believe in. Among these, the high dimensional intelligent life forms have an overpowering force, so even now where advanced science is developed, they still are called Gods._


? Shin Tenchi novel, Airai




> _- In almost all instances of encounters with life forms from higher planes of existence, we've witnessed phenomena that go against all of our laws of physics.
> - What are you talking about?
> - Unbelievable as it may be, they have the ability to overcome these laws.
> So it would seem that not even our basic notions of physical laws apply to them._


? TM GXP ep 24




> _"Tenchi's mind can't withstand higher-dimensional yet"_


? TM OVA 3 ep 6

Also, when Dr. Clay mentioned the information about high-dimensional life forms, he said something like "even that which we are not able to understand".

So, high-dimensional>>>our minds and our laws of physics.






Coston said:


> Zinv is low-multiversal, Idol is 81 times stronger than it


16 times


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 22, 2012)

The Ds are basically featless so you can't just say they are multiversal...even they are listed as cube beings in the OBD wiki.


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## Fang (May 22, 2012)

Coston said:


> @Fang: I know the number of multiverses that YHVH controls are likely dozens.
> 
> But the point is... YHVH won't pass the 3D let alone 4D and higher Ds.



Wrong again.


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## Garv (May 22, 2012)

Light Hawk Wings said:


> The Ds are basically featless so you can't just say they are multiversal...even they are listed as cube beings in the OBD wiki.


The Ds are basically featless so you can't just say they are cube beings...


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## Demiurge (May 22, 2012)

Light Hawk Wings said:


> YYHW created billions of universes according to some people here.


That's right. In SMT III, the Lady in Black says how YHWH has created billions of universes.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 22, 2012)

1. Still not seeing anything pointing towards infinite universes. Thank you Garv for providing some stuff, but unless its specifically referred to in-series, we can't say that the universes are infinite.

2. The "higher dimensions are too complicated" is too unquantifiable. For all we know, all you have to do is pass a certain threshold of power to withstand it. Hell, given that Tenchi was able to comprehend it when he became more powerful, that points toward that. Also, in Devil Survivor 2, there is a being that exists in 4-5 dimensions, being a hypercube. In Digital Devil Saga, there are multiple layers of reality, some higher than others. Same thing in the Schwartzelt. YHVH and Lucifer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Anything mentioned so far.

So I'm really not buying it. You're basically just using unquantifiable non-sequiturs that don't work anyway.


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## Nevermind (May 22, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Okay, I want to be clear about something.
> 
> Did he say "*infinite* linked universes"? Or "*infinitely* linked universes".
> 
> Because the way I'm seeing it now, it only refers to the connections between universes. Not the universes themselves.



And this post right here shows why these threads are so fucking stupid.

And I'm not saying TS is stupid, rather that with entities this high up you have to nitpick at these stupid minute details.

Of course what else would I expect from a LHW thread though?


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 22, 2012)

Lucifer finger-snaps her to death then trolls Tenchi as a hallucination

thread is over, lock it up mods


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 22, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> And this post right here shows why these threads are so fucking stupid.
> 
> And I'm not saying TS is stupid, rather that with entities this high up you have to nitpick at these stupid minute details.
> 
> Of course what else would I expect from a LHW thread though?



I agree. After you cross a certain power threshold and we get into what is infinite, multiple levels of infinity, Aleph numbers etc. a lot of it basically revolves around interpretation. And that doesn't tend to be all that fun.

Also, thank you for not calling me stupid.


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## Coston (May 22, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> 1. Still not seeing anything pointing towards infinite universes. Thank you Garv for providing some stuff, but unless its specifically referred to in-series, we can't say that the universes are infinite.



They are being impiled for most of the time but even if it not we can said that any dimension from 4D to higher are an infinite multiverse.

Basically, we still have 18 more infinite multiverses.


> 2. The "higher dimensions are too complicated" is too unquantifiable. For all we know, all you have to do is pass a certain threshold of power to withstand it.



Nope, it doesn't, any 3D beings, regardless how powerful they are cannot withstand the higher dimension by all mean.



> Hell, given that Tenchi was able to comprehend it when he became more powerful, that points toward that.



He wasn't able to withstand, in fact, his power was the only goes out of control and cause dimensional quake all the way to the hyper-dimension.

Even Washuu stated he hasn't ready yet, plus, the Chousin's goal is to created a being that more powerful than themself.



> Also, in Devil Survivor 2, there is a being that exists in 4-5 dimensions, being a hypercube. In Digital Devil Saga, there are multiple layers of reality, some higher than others. Same thing in the Schwartzelt. YHVH and Lucifer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Anything mentioned so far.



Schwartzelt is a separate multiverse from our universe.

Not a multiverse from higher dimension.

For DS2, you mean Polaris? Exist on serveral dimensions =/= exist on higher dimension.



> So I'm really not buying it. You're basically just using unquantifiable non-sequiturs that don't work anyway.



It does mean a lot, and they aren't unquantificable completely.

OVA 3, Ep 6 pretty much sums all of it.


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## Casshern (May 22, 2012)

Pretty sure Lucifer wins, unless you want to argue the counter actor is more powerful because they needed Kami Tenchi to step in, but still not sure how that would work out.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 22, 2012)

Coston said:


> They are being impiled for most of the time but even if it not we can said that any dimension from 4D to higher are an infinite multiverse.
> 
> Basically, we still have 18 more infinite multiverses.



Evidence?



> Nope, it doesn't, any 3D beings, regardless how powerful they are cannot withstand the higher dimension by all mean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Except that he did withstand it. He managed to fix things up when he went through that trippy dimension.


> Schwartzelt is a separate multiverse from our universe.
> 
> Not a multiverse from higher dimension.



It's a multiverse made up from layering the different dimensions on top of each other. The further down you go, the more powerful beings become, beings assume more powerful forms, etc. I don't see how it's all that different.


> For DS2, you mean Polaris? Exist on serveral dimensions =/= exist on higher dimension.


Alcor has forms which are different hypercubes: 

Polaris>Alcor


> It does mean a lot, and they aren't unquantificable completely.
> 
> OVA 3, Ep 6 pretty much sums all of it.



I'm still not seeing how. The reason why it's unquantifiable is that we don't know the prerequisites to be able to exist in higher dimensions aside from being more powerful than those who exist in lower dimensions.

Like Lucifer is.


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## Garv (May 23, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> 1. Still not seeing anything pointing towards infinite universes. Thank you Garv for providing some stuff, but unless its specifically referred to in-series, we can't say that the universes are infinite.
> 
> 2. The "higher dimensions are too complicated" is too unquantifiable. For all we know, all you have to do is pass a certain threshold of power to withstand it. Hell, given that Tenchi was able to comprehend it when he became more powerful, that points toward that. Also, in Devil Survivor 2, there is a being that exists in 4-5 dimensions, being a hypercube. In Digital Devil Saga, there are multiple layers of reality, some higher than others. Same thing in the Schwartzelt.



The emergence of different universes, simply from the fact that an event occurs with different outcomes, in fact, prove to be the many-worlds Interpretation, and the number of events and outcomes are tends to infinity.




A hypercube? Ok. Let's see:
0D - point = zero-dimensional
1D - line = a line is an infinite set of points
2D - square = line * line
3D - cube = line * line * line
4D - tesseract = line * line * line * line
...
22D -??? = Line ^ 22

Given the fact that the points are zero-dimensional, each space of the higher dimension is infinitely more complex/large than the previous one.

Euclidean geometry about it:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Points are most often considered within the framework of Euclidean geometry, where they are one of the fundamental objects. Euclid originally defined the point vaguely, as "that which has no part". In two-dimensional Euclidean space, a point is represented by an ordered pair (x, y) of numbers, where the first number conventionally represents the horizontal and is often denoted by x, and the second number conventionally represents the vertical and is often denoted by y. This idea is easily generalized to three dimensional Euclidean space, where a point is represented by an ordered triplet (x, y, z) with the additional third number representing depth and often denoted by z. Further generalizations are represented by an ordered tuplet of n terms, (a1, a2, ..., an) where n is the dimension of the space in which the point is located.
Many constructs within Euclidean geometry consist of an infinite collection of points that conform to certain axioms. This is usually represented by a set of points; As an example, a line is an infinite set of points of the form, where c1 through cn and d are constants and n is the dimension of the space. Similar constructions exist that define the plane, line segment and other related concepts.






ThanatoSeraph said:


> Except that he did withstand it. He


Kami Tenchi did it, not Tenchi. They are different creatures.
KT is initially Supreme Being, beyond the understanding of Chousin.
Tenchi just an anomaly, which can in some way to get power from KT.


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## Coston (May 23, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Evidence?



Because each higher dimension is infinitely bigger and more complex than the lower one? I thought you watch those videos.



> Except that he did withstand it. He managed to fix things up when he went through that trippy dimension.



It's Kami Tenchi, he =/= Tenchi.



> It's a multiverse made up from layering the different dimensions on top of each other. The further down you go, the more powerful beings become, beings assume more powerful forms, etc. I don't see how it's all that different.



There is a lot of different. No 3D being, regardless how poweful they are, cannot withstand the law of 4D Dimension let along "understand" them.




> I'm still not seeing how. The reason why it's unquantifiable is that we don't know the prerequisites to be able to exist in higher dimensions aside from being more powerful than those who exist in lower dimensions.
> 
> Like Lucifer is.



Heaven and Hell maybe higher dimension in SMT but in Tenchi Muyo they still part of 3D Dimension, look above for details.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 23, 2012)

@Garv: Thank you. I'm beginning to understand what you mean.

I still don't quite see how it helps them in a fight though. Me being 3 dimensional doesn't mean that I'm infinitely more _powerful_ than a theoretical 2D person. Just more complex. Also, the top tiers of SMT would be able to perceive higher dimensional beings, but we don't know to what value.

Regarding the many worlds, I'm not taking it as infinite unless its referenced in-show as the theory that the multiverse runs on. Because it often happens in fictions such as "what if..." stories that if there is one major point at which the paths diverge. If we take that as meaning infinite universes automatically, then SMT is easily infinite as well.

Thanks for the explanation on Kami Tenchi.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 23, 2012)

Coston said:


> Because each higher dimension is infinitely bigger and more complex than the lower one? I thought you watch those videos.



I did. Some of them were irrelevant and others didn't explain that.



> It's Kami Tenchi, he =/= Tenchi.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a lot of different. No 3D being, regardless how poweful they are, cannot withstand the law of 4D Dimension let along "understand" them.



In practice, all it seems to be is "the higher the dimension, the more powerful you are."





> Heaven and Hell maybe higher dimension in SMT but in Tenchi Muyo they still part of 3D Dimension, look above for details.



That is unquantifiable. With equivalence they are the same. Higher/lower dimensions.

Hell, the being that was a Hypercube in SMT was only a universal in a sub-multiverse of the main multiverse. Lucifer>>>>>Him by a huge amount.

Also, his other form... I'll get a picture of it but it looks to be even more complex dimensioned.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 23, 2012)

Sorry if my arguments seem a bit sloppy. I'm up late, haven't had a good sleep in ages, tired as hell, etc.


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## Garv (May 23, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> @Garv: Thank you. I'm beginning to understand what you mean.
> 
> I still don't quite see how it helps them in a fight though. Me being 3 dimensional doesn't mean that I'm infinitely more _powerful_ than a theoretical 2D person. Just more complex. Also, the top tiers of SMT would be able to perceive higher dimensional beings, but we don't know to what value.


I did not say that. I do not say anything about this fight because I do not know anything about SMT.

I'm just trying to explain how a big difference between the dimensions, which  Chousin created. How much higher dimensions will be larger/more complex than the lower ones.

2D = X * Y
3D = X * Y * Z = 2D * Z
Given that X, Y and Z are a lines with an infinite set of points.

I did not argue about the higher dimensional beings, I spoke about the complexity/size of the space.
D4 is more powerful than D3, not because he exists in higher dimensions, but because he manages a much larger space.

By the way, chousin are not a higher dimensional beings, they are hyperdimensional, they exist outside the dimensional concept.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 23, 2012)

Fair enough. Sorry for my failing in reading comprehension.


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## Coston (May 23, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> I did. Some of them were irrelevant and others didn't explain that.
> 
> 
> In practice, all it seems to be is "the higher the dimension, the more powerful you are."




It seem that you misunderstand my post.

It doesn't sound like that, if a 4D being arrived to 3D Dimension, it would cause the entire 3D Dimension to collapse because it is too complex for entire dimension to handle.


Plus, it isn't because more powerful, 3D Dimension's concepts cannot appiled to higher dimension in Tenchi Muyo, period!




> That is unquantifiable. With equivalence they are the same. Higher/lower dimensions.



Different fictions have different system, in Tenchi Muyo, Heaven and Hell are still a part of 3D Dimension.



> Hell, the being that was a Hypercube in SMT was only a universal in a sub-multiverse of the main multiverse. Lucifer>>>>>Him by a huge amount.
> 
> Also, his other form... I'll get a picture of it but it looks to be even more complex dimensioned.



You know that we human never able to project a "real" 4D image, right?

Let alone something more complex than a tesseract.

I would disargee with that, if SMT's system is the same as Tenchi Muyo then the MC along with his group would be death by the time they saw Alcor's second form.

@Garv: Can you put a better explanation to Thanato?

Can't put it in word correctly.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 23, 2012)

The thing is, you can say that, _or_ you can say that people in SMT can view higher dimensional beings without dying.

It still seems mostly unquantifiable to me.


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## Garv (May 24, 2012)

Coston said:


> @Garv: Can you put a better explanation to Thanato?
> 
> Can't put it in word correctly.



It is difficult, given the fact that my English is terrible  
Anyway, I already wrote all about it.
2D = X * Y
3D = X * Y * Z = 2D * Z
Given that X, Y and Z are a lines with an infinite set of points. 
3D = 2D * infinite set of points
4D = 3D * infinite set of points
5D = 4D * infinite set of points
...
TM has 22D.
As well as a line is infinitely larger/complex than a point, as well as each successive D's controls infinitely larger/complex space.
D's control all dimensions, and Chousin created it.
But they are not able to create something that could be comparable with them, so any number of D's will be weaker than Chousin.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 24, 2012)

You're doing pretty well the way I see it. Your English is good.

The thing is, just to ask one thing: Do we know that each dimension is infinite? Because it is possible that the dimensions are limited. So that X, Y etc. are only a-b rather than a-infinity. Sorry if I missed something clarifying this in a previous post.

Also, SMT characters don't seem to have any problem percieving and comprehending at least 4D beings.


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## Garv (May 24, 2012)

Well, like in many other fictions, the universes in TM are called as "infinite" space and "eternal" time.
For example:
_"The infinite boundaries of space!!"_ ? Hiroshi Rara, Dual! ep 14 (special)


But in fact it does not matter. I'll try to explain:

Imagine a hypothetical 2D object:
Width = X
Height = Y

Now imagine, 3D space:
Width = X
Height = Y
Depth = Z

What do you think, how many of these 2D objects like this one can fit inside this 3D space?

The answer - infinitely many.
Why? Because the depth of any 2D object (relative to the 3D space) = 1 point. Points are zero-dimensional; ie, they do not have volume, area, length, or any other higher-dimensional analogue; ie conventional depth of any 2d object in 3d space is an infinitesimal quantity/zero-dimensional. So you can add any number of 2d objects in 3d space that has any depth greater than zero.



I do not think that the SMT top tiers will have problems in order to percieving and comprehending higher dimensions, because they seems to exist outside the universes/multiverses, in which there is a similar dimensional concept(Although much less complicated).


I just want to say that the TM top tiers are working on a very high multiversal scale, regardless of how many 3d  universes exist within the TM verse.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 24, 2012)

Okay, fair enough and thanks. I think I understand.

Come to think of it, that would make Alcor infinitely more complex than the universe...


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 24, 2012)

Well the Top tiers of SMT like YYHW created more universes than the Chousin.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 24, 2012)

If that's the case, then Lucifer takes it, thread over.


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## Coston (May 24, 2012)

Light Hawk Wings said:


> Well the Top tiers of SMT like YYHW created more universes than the Chousin.



Bullshit.

Compared to a being that can match Chousin, who created at least 18 infinite multiverses and the higher multiverse is infinitely bigger and more complex than the lower one, YHVH still a long way to go.

Although higher dimensions than 3D Multiverse are "infinite multiverses" in our sense, however, any 4D object is infinitely larger than anything of 3D Multiverse.

Just like how a square, regardless how small it is, is infinitely larger and more complex than any line.

@Thanato: Fair enough to me.

I admit my mistake there, but there are still 17 other Ds.

About Mem Aleph's multiverse, it seem like a RPG to me.

About this match, IMO, YHVH stop somewhere around D4 and D6.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 24, 2012)

Now you are just wanking Coston and sounding like Raigen.

YYWH created billions of universes with the blink of an eye  The D's didn't create a infinite  Multiverse get over it


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 24, 2012)

I'm still not seeing how they created infinite universes. All I'm seeing is this "infinitely complex" stuff, which I really don't think equates to infinite universes.

We're 3D beings, but we can't automatically destroy infinite 2D objects.

And could you elaborate on what you mean by "it seem like an RPG?" I don't quite get what you mean by that.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 24, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> I'm still not seeing how they created infinite universes. All I'm seeing is this "infinitely complex" stuff, which I really don't think equates to infinite universes.
> 
> We're 3D beings, but we can't automatically destroy infinite 2D objects.



Well he said 18 infinite multiverses not universes.


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## Coston (May 24, 2012)

Light Hawk Wings said:


> Now you are just wanking Coston and sounding like Raigen.
> 
> YYWH created billions of universes with the blink of an eye  The D's didn't create a infinite  Multiverse get over it



And you downplay the hell out of Ds.

Are you telling me that D3 is losing to the likes Idol and Zinv?

They are multiversal, man.

Riverlia and Garv also argees with me about Ds being multiversal.

I and Riverlia have a debate about this before.

3D Dimension was prove to be a multiverse, now tell me if any higher dimension isn't an infinite multiverse? Evidence when both Garv and Riverlia argee about this?

Also, LHW... you are the one sound like Raigen.

@Thanato: They are infinitely bigger too, if they were only infinitely more complex, I wouldn't bring the example that I made in my previous post.

About Mem Aleph's multiverse:

The deeper you get inside it, the more powerful Demon you encountered.

I don't see them being more complex, the shape is only a little different from what we know... and about "an RPG", it's a grammar error, don't mind it.

Since you played SMT, you know what I mean.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 24, 2012)

When endless mike disagrees  and says there are other universes different than the hyper dimension  and I think he knows more about Tenchi muyo than you Coston.


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## Coston (May 24, 2012)

Light Hawk Wings said:


> When endless mike disagrees  and says there are other universes different than the hyper dimension  and I think he knows more about Tenchi muyo than you Coston.



So what is Dual when it takes place in a parallel universe?

So what is Isekai when it takes place in a different universe?

So what is GXP when it takes place in serveral different universes?

They are part of 3D Dimension, you moron.

Read the interview, damnit.

Try to discard Word of God then, I dare you.

I admit that EM knows more about Tenchi Muyo than me.

But that doesn't mean his word is absolute.

I prefer canon material more.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 24, 2012)

He thinks they exist in a parallel universe so yeah it could be true. Also what you say could be true or false. Tell me why can't Dual and Isekai  exist in a parallel universe? I don't recall the author ever saying the third dimension is a Multiverse. You are making it sound like the only Multiversal who can beat the Chousin is the Living Tribunal when that isn't the case.


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## Coston (May 24, 2012)

Light Hawk Wings said:


> He thinks they exist in a parallel universe so yeah it could be true. Also what you say could be true or false. Tell me why can't Dual and Isekai  exist in a parallel universe? I don't recall the author ever saying the third dimension is a Multiverse. You are making it sound like the only Multiversal who can beat the Chousin is the Living Tribunal when that isn't the case.



Expect Washuu stated that Isekai is different world.

Plus, since when Dual and Isekai exist in the same universe?

Any Tenchi Muyo expert would laugh at that.

Expect that he stated Isekai is a different universe while Dual and GXP are parallel universes.

Good luck proving 3D Dimension isn't a multiverse when canon material supports me and Garv.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 24, 2012)

What canon material? I asked why can't Isakai and Dual exist in parallel universe? Since a parallel universe could be in a different world.

Are you also saying Endless mike is wrong for thinking that they are in different universes? 

and also tell me who can beat the Chousin?


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## Coston (May 24, 2012)

Light Hawk Wings said:


> What canon material?



Washu's statement. 



> I asked why can't Isakai and Dual exist in parallel universe? Since a parallel universe could be in a different world.



The only thing we got is that Dual have 2 parallel universes.

GXP is the same while Isekai was stated to be a different universe/world.



> Are you also saying Endless mike is wrong for thinking that they are in different universes?



If he said they are different universes then I would argee with him.

But saying they are universes that isn't a part of Chousin's multiverse is something else. 



> and also tell me who can beat the Chousin?



IMO, they are above the likes IG and 616 MJJ.

You might need Lucifer Morningstar or Micheal Demiurges level beings to defeat them.

Just my option.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 24, 2012)

Fang did say Lucifer from SMT was in the same rank as Lucifer Morningstar. Endless mike did say they are separate universes btw..for example not all universes in Tenchi Muyo could be in the same format as the hyper dimension.

Also coston here the author said Isakei is in an alternate  universe he doesn't say it is in the third dimension.


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## Coston (May 24, 2012)

Light Hawk Wings said:


> Fang did say Lucifer from SMT was in the same rank as Lucifer Morningstar.



Pure bullshit.



> Endless mike did say they are separate universes btw..for example not all universes in Tenchi Muyo could be in the same format as the hyper dimension.



Separate universes... yes, aren't part of 3D Dimension... fuck no.



> Also coston here the author said Isakei is in an alternate  universe he doesn't say it is in the third dimension.



So are they part of higher dimension? 

Which mean Kenshi is infinitely stronger than Z and Tenchi?

And since when we need him to talk out loud when Tenchi Muyo get it done?

Chousin was the one created every universes of Tenchi Muyo, don't tell me they are seperate from hyper-dimension.

Don't tell me someone only has 1 LHW is rival to Ds.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (May 24, 2012)

Hey that's what the author said not me. he said Isekai was in an alternate  universe. 

YYWH is in the same level as Lucifer Morning star though since he can create billions of universes by blinking.


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## Coston (May 24, 2012)

Light Hawk Wings said:


> Hey that's what the author said not me. he said Isekai was in an alternate  universe.
> 
> YYWH is in the same level as Lucifer Morning star though since he can create billions of universes by blinking.



I already accepted that Isekai, GXP and Dual are either seperate or alternate universes.

Dual also has 2 parallel universes, I only disargee EM's arguement about Dual and Isekai aren't being part of 3D Dimension.

Billions of universes don't mean much to Lucifer Morningstar, he is above a lot of people who perform infinite universes scale and level feats such as Cosmic Armor Superman, Spectre (expect his Prime version), Mandrakk, Anti-Monitor and Endless,...

Hell, the list goes forever.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 24, 2012)

I'm sorry, but I'm still not seeing how the higher dimensions have infinitely larger multiverses. More complex, yes but not larger in terms of DC.

And I'm not buying the Chousin being above IG wielders. 

I might retire from this thread for a bit. I really can't be stuffed with all this. Sorry.


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## Scratchy (May 24, 2012)

'might'?

You should never enter this thread again. Multiversal fights are cancer.


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## teddy (May 24, 2012)

They really are just a contest of who has a bigger dick. That's the main reason I tend to not get involved with them.


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## Nevermind (May 24, 2012)

Scratchy said:


> 'might'?
> 
> You should never enter this thread again. Multiversal fights are cancer.





? said:


> They really are just a contest of who has a bigger dick. That's the main reason I tend to not get involved with them.



Which is why such threads should be banned.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 24, 2012)

Okay, change the "might" to definitely.


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## Coston (May 24, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> I'm sorry, but I'm still not seeing how the higher dimensions have infinitely larger multiverses. More complex, yes but not larger in terms of DC.
> 
> And I'm not buying the Chousin being above IG wielders.
> 
> I might retire from this thread for a bit. I really can't be stuffed with all this. Sorry.



Just my option, really, I hate multiversal matches but have to enter it if it involve a character or fiction that you support.

Have you read my post?

I said they are *infinitely bigger* too, not just more complex.

A 4D being would wreck the hell out of 3D Dimension, it's real.


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## Black Leg Sanji (May 24, 2012)

Never seen the point in BILLIONZ/INFINITEZ AMOUNT OF MULTIVERZAZ debates myself

Seems pointless at that level


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## Fang (May 24, 2012)

Its because Coston has no idea what's he's talking about, like Spaniard, who actually has the gall to annoyingly pm me with this junk and set his profile to ignore reply pm's.

Pretty pathetic.

And laughing at the idea of YHVH being weaker then Lucifer Morningstar.


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## Black Leg Sanji (May 24, 2012)

Fang said:


> Its because Coston has no idea what's he's talking about, like Spaniard, who actually has the gall to annoyingly pm me with this junk and set his profile to ignore reply pm's.



:infinitegiogio

That said, billions is atleast comprehensible (Each second nonetheless)

Different levels of infinity not so much (Imo atleast)


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## Fang (May 24, 2012)

Not so much that as someone's whose "avatar" exists in worlds beyond human comprehension and Lucifer confirmed that YHVH is not only essentially omnipresent but the events in SMT II were essentially an "eyeblink to him" in the spanj of time.


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## Nevermind (May 24, 2012)

A goof question to ask is: why is Coston in the wiki?


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