# Hidan vs. Zabuza



## Ryuzaki (Jul 9, 2015)

Distance: 25 meters
Location: Kakashi vs. Kakuzu
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: None

Who wins?


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## Deer Lord (Jul 9, 2015)

Has been done before.
Zabuza opens with hidden mist and decapitates hidan.


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## Icegaze (Jul 9, 2015)

Zabuza trolls soo hard it's not funny
Hidan gets the Genin treatment


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## Bonly (Jul 9, 2015)

Hidan gets up in Zabuza's grill and keeps the pressure on until he lands a blow(fatal or not) and the it's ritual time, bye bye Zabuza.


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

so hidan gets up in zabuza grill when he cant even see zabuza
loving hidan sensing skills


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## Alex Payne (Jul 10, 2015)

Zabuza isn't winning this without full knowledge. Rusty Part 1 Kakashi was able to react to Zabuza inside Mist. Hidan can easily take hits and get some blood in that exchange.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jul 10, 2015)

Put in the rest of the Fodder Swordsmen, then mabye they would have a chance, But Zabuza by himself is getting taken to the Rape shed, Nobody that got trashed by rusty 5 minute Sharingan Wave Kakashi, is beating an Akatsuki member, Hidan may suck but cmon man losing to Zabuza by himself is fodder level lets be honest. I'll say it'll take 4-5 swordsmen to take out hidan ATLEAST, Mangetsu might solo, but Hidan can take on any of the other fodder members. 

I'll be honest the closest battle in Battledome history would be Sound 5 Vs 7 Swordsmen because they both have one non fodder in Kimmimaro/Mangetsu and the rest suck, The 7 Swordsmen would only win because they have extra fodder members, to the inferior Sound fodder numbers.


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Zabuza isn't winning this without full knowledge. Rusty Part 1 Kakashi was able to react to Zabuza inside Mist. Hidan can easily take hits and get some blood in that exchange.



who says kakashi was rusty. also the mist did get thicker. kakashi also has the benefit of mizu bunshin something hidan doesnt have 

lol hidan isnt taking any hits. zabuza goes for a kill swing either to the head or splitting hidan in half 

no exchanges there. lets not forget he could easily use a mizubunshin to bait hidan. kakashi who is much smarter still got played by that

i dont see how hidan doesnt get fooled time and time again by it


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## Deer Lord (Jul 10, 2015)

There won't be any battle, and zabuza doesn't need intel.
It's his canon strategy to open with hidden mist then go for the head (need I remind you his sword is named _*beheading *sword_?)
Hidan can't do shit, he doesn't have sharingan nor bunshins.

Zabuza takes his head then plays football with it.


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

lol agreed deer lord


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## The Undying (Jul 10, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> I'll be honest the closest battle in Battledome history would be Sound 5 Vs 7 Swordsmen because they both have one non fodder in Kimmimaro/Mangetsu and the rest suck, The 7 Swordsmen would only win because they have extra fodder members, to the inferior Sound fodder numbers.



The Seven Swordsmen were stated to be Jounin and were worthy enough to be resurrected for the war, not to mention lasting against Kakashi and his squad for a day.

The Sound Four were Chuunin-level chump change who could just barely match two Special Jounin with their combined full strength. Kabuto didn't even want them for his Edo army.

Seven Swordsmen vs. Sound Four would be an _ungodly_ stomp in favor of the former team.


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

mangetsu vs sound 4 is a stomp in magentsu favour already 
the other 6 make it child abuse. no point in debating such 

zabuza wasnt even stated or hyped as the strongest so we have 7 people on part 1 kakashi level more or less vs 4 people who couldnt take 2 jounin kakashi kills with a kunai if he feels like it


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## Bonly (Jul 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so hidan gets up in zabuza grill when he cant even see zabuza
> loving hidan sensing skills



The match doesn't start with the mist up which means Hidan can see Zabuza at first. With his speed, Hidan can be up in Zabuza's grill before the mist gets to thick which even then he could prolly react to Zabuza


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

Bonly said:


> The match doesn't start with the mist up which means Hidan can see Zabuza at first. With his speed, Hidan can be up in Zabuza's grill before the mist gets to thick which even then he could prolly react to Zabuza



odd how the mist wasnt already up when zabuza faced kakashi in the war arc yet he was still able to put it up 

or at the bridge in part 1

i didnt know hidan was faster than kakashi. hidan got the ranged scythe so u do have a point but i dont see how he scratches zabuza before zabuza hides in the mist at which point hidan gets trolled

btw part 1 kakashi >asuma and zabuza made short work of kakashi in their first encounter. so i dont think there is much reason to say zabuza cant last even a little bit against hidan before mist is up

which only requires a hand pose.


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## Pirao (Jul 10, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Has been done before.
> Zabuza opens with hidden mist and decapitates hidan.



Sounds about right.


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## Bonly (Jul 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> odd how the mist wasnt already up when zabuza faced kakashi in the war arc yet he was still able to put it up



And?



> or at the bridge in part 1



Actually Zabuza put up the mist before he showed himself and Haku so your wrong on this account.



> i didnt know hidan was faster than kakashi. hidan got the ranged scythe so u do have a point but i dont see how he scratches zabuza before zabuza hides in the mist at which point hidan gets trolled



During the Chunin exams Kakashi mentions that he was out of shape or some people call him rusty but meh and with that we know Kakashi wasn't as fast as his part two version. Now as we saw Hidan was about a inch or two from hitting Kakashi who again was faster then wave arc Kakashi and later on we saw them clash evenly and both time Hidan did such when he didn't have his rope which reduced his range and fighting capabilities, with the rope he might have landed a hit. Zabuza was keeping up with a slower Kakashi so Hidan should easily be fast enough to keep the pressure on Zabuza.



> btw part 1 kakashi >asuma and zabuza made short work of kakashi in their first encounter. so i dont think there is much reason to say zabuza cant last even a little bit against hidan before mist is up



Asuma>Wave arc Kakashi so Zabuza making "short work of him" isn't doing much for me when Hidan> the three mentioned above.


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## Mercurial (Jul 10, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Now as we saw Hidan was about a inch or two from hitting Kakashi who again was faster then wave arc Kakashi and later on we saw them clash evenly and both time Hidan did such when he didn't have his rope which reduced his range and fighting capabilities, with the rope he might have landed a hit. Zabuza was keeping up with a slower Kakashi so Hidan should easily be fast enough to keep the pressure on Zabuza.
> 
> 
> Asuma>Wave arc Kakashi so Zabuza making "short work of him" isn't doing much for me when Hidan> the three mentioned above.



Really? You mean that Kakashi with an injured arm and an inferior weapon (scythe >>> kunai) managed to dodge or parry all of his attacks in spite of Hidan trying to attack him by surprise and with Kakashi having his attention diverted also to dodge Kakuzu's ninjutsu and watch on team 10's backs?

Zabuza was keeping up with part 1 Kakashi? You mean when Kakashi's Mizu Bunshin blitzed Zabuza's Mizu Bunshin or when Kakashi dodged and blitzed Zabuza with Zabuza unable to do anything to him?

What in the hell? Based on what, feats, portrayal, hype? Maybe... databook stats (I would lol... not even going with the clear inconsistencies between databook stats and actual manga feats)?


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

Bonly said:


> And?



 what i just wanna talk 




> Actually Zabuza put up the mist before he showed himself and Haku so your wrong on this account.



fair enough




> During the Chunin exams Kakashi mentions that he was out of shape or some people call him rusty but meh and with that we know Kakashi wasn't as fast as his part two version. Now as we saw Hidan was about a inch or two from hitting Kakashi who again was faster then wave arc Kakashi and later on we saw them clash evenly and both time Hidan did such when he didn't have his rope which reduced his range and fighting capabilities, with the rope he might have landed a hit. Zabuza was keeping up with a slower Kakashi so Hidan should easily be fast enough to keep the pressure on Zabuza.



keepign up. u mean the guy using a scythe to fight kakashi with a kunai?

none of that proves hidan got the physical ability to out do zabuza. who could simply use clones as a stalling tactic 





> Asuma>Wave arc Kakashi so Zabuza making "short work of him" isn't doing much for me when Hidan> the three mentioned above.


[/QUOTE]

asuma had no improvement between part 1 and part 2. kakashi was the strongest jounin at the time

so not really sure how asuma>>wave arc kakashi

hidan >than the 3 above is well ur opinion 

mine is i dont see how he scrapes zabuza, gets his ritual done before mist comes up. when mist takes only 1 body pose to pull off.


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## Bonly (Jul 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> keepign up. u mean the guy using a scythe to fight kakashi with a kunai?



Yes I mean the guy with a scythe which rope was destroy(meaning he loses part of his fighting style) and has only a 3 in speed was keeping up with Kakashi using a kunai who had a 4.5 in speed at the time.



> none of that proves hidan got the physical ability to out do zabuza.



He doesn't have to physically outdo him. The entire point of that post was to prove that Hidan had enough speed to pressure a faster Kakashi then the one Zabuza fought upon which Zabuza was about on pair with him at best. Therefore Hidan is gonna have enough speed to pressure to Zabuza and be in his grill at the start of the match just like I said.



> who could simply use clones as a stalling tactic



Using clones is nice but water clones are fodder compared to Hidan and Zabuza's clone making speed doesn't seem to be fast enough to stop Hidan from getting in his grill.



> asuma had no improvement between part 1 and part 2. kakashi was the strongest jounin at the time



Power inflation. Asuma gets those benefits which means it's an improvement while wave arc Kakashi doesn't also Gai would be the strongest Jounin at the time and not Kakashi, 8 gates it's one hell of a jutsu.



> so not really sure how asuma>>wave arc kakashi



Wave arc Kakashi ended up falling down after using his Sharingan a bit and said that he wouldn't be able to move for a week or so not to mention he barely showed off alot of his arsenal along with being able to use Raikiri only fours times, ect. Power inflation on the other hand helps Asuma.



> hidan >than the 3 above is well ur opinion



Sure.



> mine is i dont see how he scrapes zabuza, gets his ritual done before mist comes up. when mist takes only 1 body pose to pull off.



Thing is Hidan doesn't have to do all those things before Zabuza gets the mist up. All he has to do is get one scratch and from there it doesn't matter if Zabuza gets the mist up or not as he'll only end up hurting himself.


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Yes I mean the guy with a scythe which rope was destroy(meaning he loses part of his fighting style) and has only a 3 in speed was keeping up with Kakashi using a kunai who had a 4.5 in speed at the time.



zabuza speed in DB is 4 and he doesn't have a kunai. He got a massive sword. So even if hidan is at his grill he wouldn't be doing anything more in a cqc exchange than getting himself blocked. 



> He doesn't have to physically outdo him. The entire point of that post was to prove that Hidan had enough speed to pressure a faster Kakashi then the one Zabuza fought upon which Zabuza was about on pair with him at best. Therefore Hidan is gonna have enough speed to pressure to Zabuza and be in his grill at the start of the match just like I said.



 then I agree. hidan can get to zabuza. I just don't think that auto means he wins



> Using clones is nice but water clones are fodder compared to Hidan and Zabuza's clone making speed doesn't seem to be fast enough to stop Hidan from getting in his grill.



well cant say they aren't 



> Power inflation. Asuma gets those benefits which means it's an improvement while wave arc Kakashi doesn't also Gai would be the strongest Jounin at the time and not Kakashi, 8 gates it's one hell of a jutsu.



but the power inflation would also include kakashi. and can be attributed to him being rusty. because in his second fight he didn't seem to get tired nearly as easily. he even managed TKB after a fight with zabuza 

dai had it. didn't stop him from not being a jounin or even considered as strong. before war arc inflation gates wasn't a spammable jutsu



> Wave arc Kakashi ended up falling down after using his Sharingan a bit and said that he wouldn't be able to move for a week or so not to mention he barely showed off alot of his arsenal along with being able to use Raikiri only fours times, ect. Power inflation on the other hand helps Asuma.




so he was rusty. I agree. zabuza did kick his rusty ass to the curb though. Naruto and sasuke needed to save kakashi who got low diff'd 



> Sure.



he did low diff kakashi in their first encounter. if kakashi didn't get saved. he would never have had the opportunity to copy zabuza jutsu or do anything 



> Thing is Hidan doesn't have to do all those things before Zabuza gets the mist up. All he has to do is get one scratch and from there it doesn't matter if Zabuza gets the mist up or not as he'll only end up hurting himself.



I just don't see hidan scratching zabuza in a cqc exchange all together. got scratched I agree 

however unlike asuma zabuza will be falling back to use hidden mist 

also thanks to inflation here, he prolly pulls out a proper sized suiton to knock hidan back


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## Bonly (Jul 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> zabuza speed in DB is 4 and he doesn't have a kunai. He got a massive sword. So even if hidan is at his grill he wouldn't be doing anything more in a cqc exchange than getting himself blocked.



Hidan was close to hitting someone faster then Zabuza(who had a 4.5 in speed) when he didn't have his rope and Asuma has a 4.5 in speed and he did get hit when Hidan had his rope. If Hidan gets into CQC range then chances are he's likely to hit Zabuza once which is all he needs to use his ritual.



> then I agree. hidan can get to zabuza. I just don't think that auto means he wins



Sure it's not an auto win but it damn near leads to one as once he uses his ritual it's pretty much a GG for Zabuza without knowledge.



> but the power inflation would also include kakashi. and can be attributed to him being rusty. because in his second fight he didn't seem to get tired nearly as easily. he even managed TKB after a fight with zabuza



Kakashi doesn't get power inflation as power inflation for everyone overall didn't happen until part two so yeah. 



> dai had it. didn't stop him from not being a jounin or even considered as strong. before war arc inflation gates wasn't a spammable jutsu



Dai isn't Gai and Dai was able to take out members of the Seven swordsman(not sure how many), something some Chunin couldn't do so yeah.



> so he was rusty. I agree. zabuza did kick his rusty ass to the curb though. Naruto and sasuke needed to save kakashi who got low diff'd





> he did low diff kakashi in their first encounter. if kakashi didn't get saved. he would never have had the opportunity to copy zabuza jutsu or do anything
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't see hidan scratching zabuza in a cqc exchange all together. got scratched I agree



That's neat. He later got his ass kicked as soon as Kakashi got free as well as he got his ass kicked after Kakashi found him in the mist. Seems like they took turns kicking ass.



> however unlike asuma zabuza will be falling back to use hidden mist



He can try to fall back but with Hidan's speed it's not gonna be easy to do such without getting hit one time.



> also thanks to inflation here, he prolly pulls out a proper sized suiton to knock hidan back



Sadly Zabuza doesn't get the benefits of power inflation .


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

> Bonly said:
> 
> 
> > Hidan was close to hitting someone faster then Zabuza(who had a 4.5 in speed) when he didn't have his rope and Asuma has a 4.5 in speed and he did get hit when Hidan had his rope. If Hidan gets into CQC range then chances are he's likely to hit Zabuza once which is all he needs to use his ritual.
> ...


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## Bonly (Jul 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> scans of him being close to hitting kakashi. I didn't see any of that happening



Seriously dude? I already showed you this today.

.



> asuma engaged hidan in cqc. zabuza would be backing off. makes it easier to defend



"He can try to fall back but with Hidan's speed it's not gonna be easy to do such without getting hit one time."



> true. and once mist is up. hidan looses his head



Lets act like Hidan can't react for some weird reason(even though the weaker Kakashi could along with god knows how many people did in part two), while he has the ritual up and gets his head cut off. Zabuza dies, Hidan doesn't  



> doesn't change the fact that a suicide tech is still a suicide tech. considering it couldn't be spammed I don't see how that changes his standing



It being a suicide tech is irrelevant. The power behind it is what matters, the faster you are means the faster you become with gates, so that a person who has nothing but Genin level stats compared to someone with Jounin level stats and the gates are gonna be better.



> how long do u think it would take for zabuza to pull off hidden mist. just curious. the way u sound, its like he gets blood drawn and looses the fight before it even begins



What happened to Asuma after he got hit? Hidan did his ritual and Asuma got burned and the end result of the fight was that Asuma died. Whatever happens to Hidan happens to Zabuza. So if Zabuza stabs Hidan, guess what happens to Zabuza? That's right Zabuza gets stabbed. So yes in a way you could say that the fight is over before he begins as Zabuza would only be hurting himself if he tries to hurt Hidan.

Think about it like this. If Minato touches a person then most of the time the fight is over. Why? Because if he marks you then he can teleport to you at any point in time and attack. Same with Hidan, if he gets your blood and sets up his ritual then he's gonna fuck up alot of people unless they force him out of his circle without hurting him. Now I'm not saying his at Minato's level but it works in a fashion like that. 



> why haku got it. why wouldn't zabuza? u don't want him to?



Haku didn't get it. At least nothing he showed implied that to me at least.


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## Mercurial (Jul 10, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Yes I mean the guy with a scythe which rope was destroy(meaning he loses part of his fighting style) and has only a 3 in speed was keeping up with Kakashi using a kunai who had a 4.5 in speed at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Keeping up? He attacked Kakashi, not the opposite, Kakashi was just defending, with the issue of having an injured arm, an inferior weapon, weaker companions to protect and another opponent who could attack him anytime. And lol at databook stats, in 2015 there are people that still count on them, come on.

He didn't pressure him, he attacked him with surprise attacks and favourable conditions and was dodged/parried anytime, and had to admit that Kakashi was really good. If Kakashi had attacked him, he would have Raikiri'd him in half, until you want to argue that Hidan is a lot faster than Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 Bijuu, that Kakashi counterblitzed landing Raikiri on their face (and keeping up with Gated Gai). And part 1 Kakashi was already much faster than Zabuza, as even in a nearly exausted state (and being out of shape in first place) he managed to dodge all his hits and blitz him. Hidan is faster than Zabuza, yes, but not by that much that Zabuza can't put distance between them splashing Hidan away with Daibafuku (he should be able to perform that since Kakashi copied it from him).

Zabuza managed to feint Kakashi, he can feint Hidan all day.

Yeah, and MS Kakashi would end up falling down after using Mangekyo six/seven times plus the Sharingan and other jutsu, and SM Naruto would be massively tired after finishing his Sennin Mode. Are they weaker than Asuma maybe? Stamina means nothing when one can casually end the fight before stamina becomes an issue. Power inflation doesn't help anyone, it's not like Asuma had a power up, regained a lost shape or trained himself more than usual. By feats, part 1 Kakashi is a lot faster and has Sharingan precognition and clone feints, so the fact that he can't use Raikiri more than four times means nothing since he is killing Asuma with just one and he is not missing 99.9 times on 100. Asuma was defenseless against Kisame's Suikodan that Kakashi casually copied, Asuma would be stomped by Kakashi's Suikodan, Suiryodan or Daibafuku. Asuma was completely defenseless against Sharingan genjutsu, Kakashi casually trolls him with Sharingan genjutsu like he did with Zabuza. By portrayal (yeah that is when part 1 Kakashi trained so he wasn't out of shape as he was in the Wave Arc, but the gap with Asuma is wide anyway), Kabuto doesn't feel he can take on part 1 Kakashi and runs away from him even if Kakashi taunts him (), I don't think anyone thinks that Kabuto would run away from Asuma; Itachi had to use the Mangekyo to not dragging the fight with part 1 Kakashi who reacted and countered all Itachi's moves (ninjutsu and clone feints), that when he perfectly knew that using the Mangekyo would have ruined his eye sight and lowered his chakra level by much: Asuma was outclassed by Hidan, and wasn't even a factor in the Itachi fight. Part 1 Kakashi was said to be a very difficult match for Kisame () (and it's not like Kishimoto didn't think about Kisame's strength because Itachi said to him do not ever use his "big flashy jutsu", clearly referring to things like Dai Bakusoi Shoha, Senshokuko and Daikodan) and Kisame referred to him as a worthy opponent (3) compared to... Asuma that he was fighting previously ("I have now a reason to show my jutsu"). 1st databook calls Kakashi as "Konoha's number one shinobi" () and manga says that Kakashi is "Konoha's numer one jutsu master" (), so as it seems even above the 3rd Hokage old Hiruzen. 

Zabuza stomps Hidan away with Suiryodan or Daibafuku, Hidan is not that faster that he wouldn't let him the time to do that, and launches Kirigakure no jutsu setting also Mizu Bunshin feints off. Even if Hidan manages to scratch him somehow (Zabuza anyway would bisect him) Zabuza can just wash Hidan's ritual paint with a Suiton.


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## thechickensage (Jul 10, 2015)

Hidan is equal to some of the 7 mist swordspeople. 

_* His ONLY jutsu is 100% reliant on people just leaving him alone while he draws basic kindergarten-level shapes on the ground and pokes himself in various locations. *_ 

How can people hype him?  He's good at taijutsu, careless in battle, worthless if not for immortality, and a great character to hate on.  

His ACTUAL skills are extremely low for the Akatsuki.  By far the most worthless member.  His best use would be for killing genin/chunin.

Anyone with decent taijutsu can stalemate with him, but only those who can fight creatively can kill him, because of his insane stamina and semi-immortality.

Zabuza has the jutsus (mist + water prisons) and the sword (an executioner, meant for beheading).

Zabuza counters Hidan quite nicely.  Hidan is CARELESS and confident/arrogant to the point of playing around with his enemies, and letting himself get hit on purpose...because it's fun.  

Mist + water prison + Zabuza's blade = Dead Hidan.  

Mid diff.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 10, 2015)

Hidan is slightly faster and more skilled (acrobatics, guided control of Scythe from over 15m) than Zabuza. 

He came within inches of taking Sharingan Kakashi's side out [1].

Hidden Mist is the only option- the question is whether or not Zabuza gets the time to use it with this limited distance.


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## thechickensage (Jul 10, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Hidan is slightly faster and more skilled (acrobatics, guided control of Scythe from over 15m) than Zabuza.
> 
> He came within inches of taking Sharingan Kakashi's side out [1].
> 
> Hidden Mist is the only option- the question is whether or not Zabuza gets the time to use it with this limited distance.



Your example shows Kakuzu as the real threat, right?  Hidan was ONLY ever able to (at best) stalemate with decent taijutsu users and have fun while his (infinitely superior) partner did the real damage, and posed the real threat.  Hidan only works well as part of a team, and ONLY when the opponents have ZERO knowledge.

Hidden mist OR water prison.  Anything to disorient or immobilize Hidan = an auto GG.  

And why do you say Hidan is faster + more skilled?  On what basis?  The databook says he is slower...


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 10, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Your example shows Kakuzu as the real threat, right?  Hidan was ONLY ever able to (at best) stalemate with decent taijutsu users and have fun while his (infinitely superior) partner did the real damage, and posed the real threat.  Hidan only works well as part of a team, and ONLY when the opponents have ZERO knowledge.
> 
> Hidden mist OR water prison.  Anything to disorient or immobilize Hidan = an auto GG.
> 
> And why do you say Hidan is faster + more skilled?  On what basis?  The databook says he is slower...


Hidan is a Low-kage level S-rank, he doesn't need a teammate against Zabuza.

Hidan's PT.2 feats against BM Yugito, Asuma & Shikamaru's shadow tendrils simultaneously, & Sharingan Kakashi were good enough to put him above Zabuza. 

Databook stats are twisted and generally nonsensical, Orochimaru's Genjutsu score is 5, the same as Itachi's- and he got beat by 3-toma Genjutsu from both Uchiha brothers and has yet to use a Genjutsu on panel.

Hidden Mist is his only option, as it was his only option against Sharingan Kakashi, aside from water puddle spawning tricks.


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## Turrin (Jul 11, 2015)

Hidan is dangerous w/o knowledge, but his arsenal is still limited and with Zabuza's frequent use of Mizubushin and Demonic Mist he's going to be a tough to land even a scratch on for Hidan. Plus the name of his sword kind of evokes the idea that he would go for beheading eventually regardless of his knowledge of Hidan. So while Hidan can win I do think Zabuza is more likely to win out in the end. 

Zabuza is also underestimated quite frequently here. The guy has pretty solid all around skills if one looks at his Data-book stats and is nigh death sentence for anyone who doesn't have a way to deal with the mist. People talk about how he lost to Wave-Arc Kakashi, but he was initially winning their first fight and Naruto/Sasuke needed to save him, and he was also winning their second fight, until Kakashi used a clever strategy to hunt him down in the mist after taking a fair number of hits himself. So Zabuza is not that much weaker than PI-Kakashi and both P1-Kakashi and Zabuza would have better feats if they performed after PII power inflation.


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## thechickensage (Jul 11, 2015)

^ just what turrin said PLUS

Hidan freakin loves _being hit_.  He gets off on tanking damage in order to humiliate/intimidate his foes. 

Zabuza is known for his mist jutsu, so it's hardly OOC to assume he opens with it, and Zabuza wouldn't be aiming to papercut.  He would mist+decapitate OR mist+water prison+decapitate Hidan at the first chance he gets.


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## Vice (Jul 11, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Put in the rest of the Fodder Swordsmen, then mabye they would have a chance, But Zabuza by himself is getting taken to the Rape shed, Nobody that got trashed by rusty 5 minute Sharingan Wave Kakashi, is beating an Akatsuki member, Hidan may suck but cmon man losing to Zabuza by himself is fodder level lets be honest. I'll say it'll take 4-5 swordsmen to take out hidan ATLEAST, Mangetsu might solo, but Hidan can take on any of the other fodder members.
> 
> I'll be honest the closest battle in Battledome history would be Sound 5 Vs 7 Swordsmen because they both have one non fodder in Kimmimaro/Mangetsu and the rest suck, The 7 Swordsmen would only win because they have extra fodder members, to the inferior Sound fodder numbers.



Really? So a bunch of chumps who couldn't even handle part 1 genin fodder are now capable of roflstomping a group that kept an entire war division including Kakashi and Guy at bay for an entire day? This is fucking retarded.

Also, I should note that Zabuza's poor showing at the end of the Wave Arc fight was specifically pointed out to be because of Haku's death and Hidan was only able to keep up with Kakashi, who was only defending with a kunai mind you, because Kakashi was faced against both he and Kakuzu at the same time.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 11, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Hidan is slightly faster and more skilled (acrobatics, guided control of Scythe from over 15m) than Zabuza.
> 
> *He came within inches of taking Sharingan Kakashi's side out [1].*
> 
> Hidden Mist is the only option- the question is whether or not Zabuza gets the time to use it with this limited distance.



Kakashi was also caught off guard but despite that, he was still breaking away from him. The problem with the Kakashi vs. Kakuzu/Hidan fight is that any time Hidan faces off against Kakashi, he's either exploiting an opening and attacking from behind or taking advantage of the masks attacking.

Alone, I don't see Hidan really putting it to anyone faster than him, Zabuza is clearly faster than Hidan. If you look at their performances based on the databooks, Zabuza (4) is clearly faster than Hidan (3.5).

Part 1 Kakashi at the time was in the same tier group as Zabuza, both still rated faster than Hidan. While Kakashi was fighting Hidan, in their skirmishes, Hidan complemented him on his skill, especially after he tries to catch him off guard. 

The Hidden Mist is probably the best deal clencher for Zabuza, it's really debatable prior to that, but for Zabuza, this clearly clinches the match for him and cements his victory more times than not.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 11, 2015)

Vice said:


> Really? So a bunch of chumps who couldn't even handle part 1 genin fodder are now capable of roflstomping a group that kept an entire war division including Kakashi and Guy at bay for an entire day? This is fucking retarded.
> 
> Also, I should note that Zabuza's poor showing at the end of the Wave Arc fight was specifically pointed out to be because of Haku's death and Hidan was only able to keep up with Kakashi, who was only defending with a kunai mind you, because Kakashi was faced against both he and Kakuzu at the same time.


Hidan gathered blood from Asuma while battling him and avoiding Shikamaru's tendril shadows simultaneously and he shunshin'd out of BM Yugito's AOS. 

If Kakashi was faster he would have wounded Hidan, they clashed multiple times. Being armed with a kunai isn't an excuse, he has Raikiri, and if he had the window to take a limb off or behead he would've done it.

That being said, Zabuza being armed with the beheader blade engaging Kakashi who was unarmed means he was only able to keep up with Kakashi because he had a massive reach advantage/blade and Kakashi didn't have a weapon equipped.


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## Icegaze (Jul 11, 2015)

> Bonly said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously dude? I already showed you this today.
> ...


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## Bonly (Jul 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> how is that close to hitting kakashi.



 Not sure if trolling or just stupid to think this is not close to hitting Kakashi? Meh I'll just assume it's the former so I accept your concession.



> he could just block with a much larger weapon like kakashi was doing.



Sure he could but that doesn't stop Hidan from being in his grill and in case you forgot Hidan's scythe has a rope which means he can get it around Zabuza's guard.



> last i checked war arc kakashi wasnt shit blitzing zabuza




I guess you missed the part where Kakashi Raikiri blitzed him at the end then.



> that implies he gets zabuza blood. though its odd u talk of kakashi reacting. the guy who got cut deep by zabuza sword in their second encounter despite having a sharingan i didnt know hidan had one of those



Kakashi "The reason I *PURPOSELY* let my blood spill twice was for this...". Kakashi let himself be hit so yeah 



> yes but that doesnt improve their standing. hence why gai despite gated techs inst more famous or has more of a rep than kakashi. despite him only needing to use 6th gate to out do everything kakashi can do bar kamui.



The gates doesn't improve their standing? El-Oh-El




> asuma who went cqc against hidan. when does zabuza attempt that if he can use hidden mist before that?



When did anyone say Zabuza won't attempt to do the mist?



> i simply dispute the hidan touches him before hidden mist is up



And I simply disagree



> oh really. haku who coudlnt block genin sasuke kick blocks gai and lee kick and doesnt get split in half
> 
> haku got such a ridiculous boost. physically
> 
> his jutsu speed didnt increase no



Haku was holding back in part one against Naruto+Sasuke so that doesn't prove that Haku is unable to block Sasuke's kick so try again.


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## Icegaze (Jul 11, 2015)

Bonly now am sure u are slow. hidan didn't almost hit kakashi, kakashi blocked that's it 

kakashi didn't blitz zabuza  raikiri tore through his arm and sword. how is that a blitz. did u expect a sword to clash with raikiri

your trolling is over 9000


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## thechickensage (Jul 11, 2015)

Bonly do you think that anytime someone blocks, the other person was "close to hitting?"  1) Kakashi blocked, 2) Kakashi is fighting a huge weapon with long reach with the smallest weapon with the worst reach, and 3) do you really consider that Kakashi blocking Hidan's attack counts as a feat for Hidan?  Wtf...

Idk how you think that Not Actually Hitting Kakashi counts as a feat for Hidan.  

Look at what Kakashi says a few pages later: "These guys are strong...especially the masked one..."

Any elite jonin can keep up with Hidan's taijutsu.  A full-knowledge Asuma wouldn't lose, Kakashi wouldn't lose, Gai wouldn't lose, Darui wouldn't lose.  Hidan's only strength is lack of knowledge of his enemy, and the hopes that they will let themselves get wouldnt AND that they will let him finish his drawing AND that they will just let him stab at himself while in his circle.  

That's a lot of ANDs required for Hidan to use his jutsu.  

That's why Hidan is mainly scary when he has a partner.  Bonly pointed out a "suicide" combo that only even has a chance of hurting the other person if Hidan has a partner with an AoE elemental attack, and even then, Hidan's attack is just a distraction.   

And how is Hidan low-kage?  Any kage could defeat him with ease.

Actually Tsunade vs Hidan would be pretty awesome.  It would be the first person who could just insta-heal from his ritual.  I would like to see his face when that happened.


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## Bonly (Jul 11, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Bonly do you think that anytime someone blocks, the other person was "close to hitting?"  That's a rather broad definition of "close."



Yeah more or less. 



> It didn't hit him, right?



No hence why I said close to hitting him.



> *Hidan by himself wouldn't have been able to put pressure without the elemental backup of Kakuzu.*   The trap they setup was to have Hidan distract the opponent while Kakuzu uses combined elemental jutsu on both of them.



Wrong, actually pay attention to what happened. Hidan attacked first. Not Kakuzu. Hidan was the one in Kakashi's grill before the mask was was even shown. Kakashi didn't even see the mask till the last second nor did the mask pop up until the last second meaning he was focused on Hidan. So Hidan managed to pressure Kakashi and almost hit him *before* the mask even popped up to do it's thing so to say that Hidan needs the elemental backup is a plain lie.



> Look at what Kakashi says a few pages later: "These guys are strong...especially the masked one..."



Irrelevant.


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## thechickensage (Jul 11, 2015)

Kakashi's assessment of the relative danger of the two Akatsuki is entirely relevant.  He thinks that Kakuzu it's by far the more dangerous one since Hidan's attacks are all easy to read.  

And I think you misunderstand what I said about Hidan/Kakuzu's combo move.  I'm not saying that Hidan didn't move first or get Kakashi into position.  He applied the pressure, you're right, but that move was only useful when supported by an AoE-dealing partner.  What would have happened in the next panel after Hidan "almost" hit Kakashi?  

They would just continue sparring, because "almost hitting" one another means absolutely nothing.  If being blocked counts as almost hitting, then in your opinion Naruto almost landed thousands of hits on Kimimaru, right?  That is definitely NOT a feat, and it doesn't show anything at all.  If a fodder attacks Madara, who blocks it...does that also count as "almost hitting" as well?


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## Bonly (Jul 11, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Kakashi's assessment of the relative danger of the two Akatsuki is entirely relevant.  He thinks that Kakuzu it's by far the more dangerous one since Hidan's attacks are all easy to read.



No, who Kakashi thought was the more dangerous of the two is irrelevant to Hidan vs Zabuza.



> And I think you misunderstand what I said about Hidan/Kakuzu's combo move.  I'm not saying that Hidan didn't move first or get Kakashi into position.  *He applied the pressure, you're right,* but that move was only useful when supported by an AoE-dealing partner.  What would have happened in the next panel after Hidan "almost" hit Kakashi?



"Hidan by himself wouldn't have been able to put pressure without the elemental backup of Kakuzu"  

Glad you agree now but it being useful with Kakuzu is irrelevant to the point. The point is Hidan speed was able to pressure Kakashi and almost hit him. That's the point of bringing that up.  



> They would just continue sparring, because "almost hitting" one another means absolutely nothing.



Sure but you're missing the point. The point is Hidan was close to hitting someone who is faster then Zabuza which means Hidan should be able to repeat the same thing against Zabuza but this time he has a good chance at hitting Zabuza as Zabuza isn't as fast as Kakashi and Hidan's scythe has it's rope. 



> If being blocked counts as almost hitting, then in your opinion Naruto almost landed thousands of hits on Kimimaru, right?



Yeah he did almost hit him god knows how many times.



> That is definitely NOT a feat, and it doesn't show anything at all.



Cry as much as you like but it's a feat. It's a feat that shows that Hidan can keep up with Kakashi and pressure him with his speed.



> If a fodder attacks Madara, who blocks it...does that also count as "almost hitting" as well?



Yeah if said fodder attack is an inch or two away from his face then yeah it almost hit him.


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## thechickensage (Jul 11, 2015)

Well, you haven't proven anything, and apparently neither have I.   So let's ignore the Hidan vs Zabuza in a straight-up fight for now.  

I think we might agree that they can stalemate until exhaustion in CQC?

Do you think that once activated, the mist means Zabuza wins?


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## Bonly (Jul 11, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Well, you haven't proven anything, and apparently neither have I.



I proved that Hidan should be able to pressure Zabuza since he pressured Kakashi(which you admitted he did) who is faster then Zabuza. You proved nothing.



> So let's ignore the Hidan vs Zabuza in a straight-up fight for now.



Sure let us ignore what the thread is about. 



> Your opinion is that Zabuza wouldn't use his signature technique....the mist?



Can you show me where I said that?



> Do you think that once activated, the mist means Zabuza wins?



Nope but he has decent shot


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 11, 2015)

We all know Hidan can't even pressure Kakashi with his speed. He couldn't even pressure Shikamaru with his own speed.


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## thechickensage (Jul 11, 2015)

I should clarify, bonly 

The first time I said pressure I meant it like "danger," meaning that kakashi was never in danger from Hidan's CQC.  Meaning that the chances for getting a kill from just CQC was extremely unlikely for Hidan.  What I meant when I first mentioned it, was that in the context of that move, kakuzu was the danger, not Hidan.

When you brought up pressure in your post, I took your use of the word pressure to mean ground-control or being able to force the opponent to give up ground or move in a certain direction.  That's a better definition of pressure imo, so I agreed with your

What sounded like a retraction on my part was me switching to your definition of pressure

And yes, Hidan is one of the best ground-control CQC specialists for putting pressure on his opponents.

But he doesn't provide that much of a threat to other CQC masters (like a master swordsman) because his style is to just draw blood, rather than outright kill the opponent.  If kunai-kakashi can fend off Hidan perfectly, then massive-sword zabuza would do better

Even Asuma could win with full knowledge, but since zabuza has a built stealth-kill move that he is widely known for using frequently, and since his style is to completely destroy the person, zabuza should win this without knowledge

Zabuza usually uses the mist, so its safe to assume he'd use it vs Hidan.


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## Bonly (Jul 12, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> But he doesn't provide that much of a threat to other CQC masters (like a master swordsman) because his style is to just draw blood, rather than outright kill the opponent.



And yet he was a threat to Asuma and killed Asuma who's all about that Close Quarter Combat. I think you're underrating Hidan needing only a drop a blood if you think he's not a threat



> If kunai-kakashi can fend off Hidan perfectly, then massive-sword zabuza would do better



In case you forgot Hidan has a rope on his scythe which means Zabuza won't only be dealing with straight forward attacks like Kakashi did so he won't be able to fend Hidan off as well.



> Even Asuma could win with full knowledge,



Not really.



> but since zabuza has a built stealth-kill move that he is widely known for using frequently, and since his style is to completely destroy the person, zabuza should win this without knowledge



Thing is you haven't brought anything useful to the table to suggest this is true, I mean his style is neat and all but his style alone doesn't mean he's gonna get the job done. 

Sasuke could see Zabuza+Kakashi in the mist when they were a few meters away. Team seven could see Zabuza+Kakashi on the water when they was a few meters in front of them. Kakashi+company could see Zabuza+Haku when the latter was a few meters ahead of them. A bunch of fodder could see Paku when she was a bit in front of them. ect. 

As you can see when the mist is up people can still see within a few meters of themselves for the most part so it's not like Hidan is gonna become instantly blind the moment the mist goes up so Hidan is gonna be able to defend himself from Zabuza's CQC attacks. If Kakashi with a kunai can block Zabuza's big ass sword then Hidan's three bladed scythe should be able to as well so really how is Zabuza's style equal a win when Hidan should be able to react to Zabuza as well as see Zabuza when Zabuza gets into CQC range?



> Kakuzu usually uses the mist, so its safe to assume he'd use it vs Hidan.



I didn't know Kakuzu could use the mist.


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## Icegaze (Jul 12, 2015)

I gotta agree wit bonly reading chapter 523 at close distance. hidan will be able to see zabuza attacking him quite clearly 

even fodders could see at close distance in the mist 

hidan gets blood and wins

except no part of what transpired in this attack was a blitz at all 

can block Zabuza's big ass sword


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## Soul (Jul 13, 2015)

This one is simple. It all depends on Zabuza's approach.
If he goes for anything other than a decapitation, he is dead.

No knowledge and IC means that he will probably go for another vital organ more often than not, which means he is more likely to lose the fight.



Icegaze said:


> I gotta agree wit bonly reading chapter 523 at close distance. hidan will be able to see zabuza attacking him quite clearly
> 
> even fodders could see at close distance in the mist
> 
> ...



Zabuza can alter the density of the mist with his chakra.
He is fighting to kill, so he will do his best to disrupt the LoS; something I believe he will accomplish.


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## Icegaze (Jul 13, 2015)

@Soul as a zombie fighting to kill kakashi could still see him at 5m or less clearly 

so yh hidan kills him properly


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## Soul (Jul 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Soul as a zombie fighting to kill kakashi could still see him at 5m or less clearly
> 
> so yh hidan kills him properly



Kakashi's Sharingan is a big advantage for him, though, as it can see chakra.
Consider that Hidan sometimes plays around with people, too.


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## thechickensage (Jul 14, 2015)

Bonly said:


> And yet he was a threat to Asuma and killed Asuma who's all about that Close Quarter Combat. I think you're underrating Hidan needing only a drop a blood if you think he's not a threat


I've said this before: Hidan wasn't the real threat.  Asuma was in the terrible position of trying to defend his scouting squad  of 3 leafling fodders WHILE taking on and keeping track of TWO Akatsuki.  The whole battle was paced according to his fears for his underlings.  I'm not underrating Hidan.  You just see the battle as proceeding very differently than I do. 

To me, Asuma was only thinking of protecting the leaflings from certain death, and he couldn't run the numbers any way that ended up in them living.  He was terrified of taking on two at the same time, when BOTH had completely unknown abilities. 




Bonly said:


> In case you forgot Hidan has a rope on his scythe which means Zabuza won't only be dealing with straight forward attacks like Kakashi did so he won't be able to fend Hidan off as well.


The point is that a weapon with much larger range would be more useful than a friggin knife that doesn't even have a crossguard.  So yeah..._obviously a sword is better._



Soul said:


> No knowledge and IC means that he will probably go for another vital organ more often than not, which means he is more likely to lose the fight.



How can do you "aim for an organ" with a blade 6 feet long by 1 foot wide?  It's swung in a huge arc, and it's a cleaver, not a stabby stabby sword.
This: ---------> 


is not an "attack the vital points" kind of sword.  

The sword is called the Executioner's Blade...and according to Narutopedia, the literal english is Decapitating Carving Knife.  It's NOT called The Tickler or Wounding Claw or something. 

Its main purpose is to cleave body parts completely off.  You're treating it like Killer B's 8 little daggers.  Yeah, _those _are used for pinpoint attacks.  A huge sword like this is obviously meant to deliver killing or cleaving blows with each swing.

This is what it looks like when Zabuza's hit connects:  Haku was torn into two parts 





Bonly said:


> Thing is you haven't brought anything useful to the table to suggest this is true, I mean his style is neat and all but his style alone doesn't mean he's gonna get the job done.



For hype, Kakashi called Zabuza's Silent Killing technique, which uses his mist ability, "second to none"

Zabuza begins the battle vs the shinobi alliance with his hidden mist jutsu

And what was Kakashi's response- everyone forms little group with everyone facing out so they can't be snuck up on and insta-killed by Zabuza.  Meaning he was sure that there would be massive casualties if people were unable to watch all angles at all times.  

Gai said he couldn't see a thing because the fog was "getting thicker," because the fog grows in thickness according the Zabuza's purposes.

Kakashi came up with a brilliant plan to locate and blindside Zabuza, but it required a sensor capable of locating Zabuza in the first place.  Ch 523, page 8...so why do you think Hidan would be perfectly fine with nothing but his shouting to give away his position?

Zabuza's MAIN reputation is for killing silently from impenetrable fog.


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## Bonly (Jul 14, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> I've said this before: Hidan wasn't the real threat.



I've said this before: it's irrelevant. 



> The point is that a weapon with much larger range would be more useful than a friggin knife that doesn't even have a crossguard.  So yeah..._obviously a sword is better._



Large range is good and all but that's a big heavy sword he's using which means he might not move as lightly as some others and won't be able to put up a guard in enough time, look at how wide open he left himself when he went to attack Kakashi but missed, he had to go with a kick as his sword was sliding through the ground. 



> A bunch of mist hype.



Thing is I already dehyped it a little when I outright showed you proof that people can still see within a few meters of themselves when in the mist most of the time, hell even after Gai talked about the mist getting thicker Kakashi could still see Edo Zabuza a few meters from infront of him after said statement thus proof my point some more. You can hype it as much as you want but the fact is that when Zabuza comes in CQC range he's gonna be visible to Hidan.



> so why do you think Hidan would be perfectly fine with nothing but his shouting to give away his position?



Because Hidan is faster, has good reflexes and can see Zabuza when he gets close(which is the only way he's winning) which should allow him to react to Zabuza's attacks when he does use the mist.


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## thechickensage (Jul 14, 2015)

eh, done arguing this.  Neither of us will be convinced.  We disagree on too many minor points


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## Icegaze (Jul 14, 2015)

look at bonly scans 
kakashi can see hidan clearly and its not due to sharingan since the mist has chakra as well 
so seeing chakra wont help kakashi in that way 

yet he could clearly see him. I think the mist allows for proper feinting to be performed. so clone distractions etc 

its not one sided if zabuza gets his mist up but its however more to his advantage

if he doesnt though hidan kills him. thats not debatable


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## Vice (Jul 14, 2015)

Zabuza is Hidan's equal in taijutusu and is faster and Hidan doesn't have Kakuzu here to serve as a distraction, not only that but Hidan doesn't have a counter to Hidden Mist.  

Even if Zabuza can't kill Hidan, he can still bisect him and a bisected Hidan can't do shit to Zabuza without Kakuzu to stitch him back together,  as we saw when Asuma lopped his head off.


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## Icegaze (Jul 15, 2015)

you don't need a counter to hidden mist

kakashi could clearly see zabuza at 5m away from him while in the mist. 

hidan will get a drop of blood which is all he needs to win


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## Vice (Jul 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> you don't need a counter to hidden mist



Since when? 



> kakashi could clearly see zabuza at 5m away from him while in the mist.



Hidan isn't Kakashi and Kakashi needed the aid of sensors to locate Zabuza in the mist.



> hidan will get a drop of blood which is all he needs to win



He didn't get a drop of blood from Kakashi with like a 4 on 1 advantage. Zabuza is excellent at clone feinting, has the Mist advantage and basically just needs one clean cut on a slower opponent.


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## Icegaze (Jul 15, 2015)

Vice said:


> Since when?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



again refer to bonly scans. right before the raikiri kakashi at 5m or more could see zabuza with no issues

no mention of sharingan being the reason he could

also kakashi is shown blocking zabuza attack while zabuza is in the mist. So yh hidan would get the drop of blood

4 on 1 advantage? lol manga scans please

yes zabuza is good at clone feinting hence why i said zabuza in the mist would fool hidan which may result in him winning its however not a stomp which i thought it was before

the issue here is can zabuza get the mist up before loosing a little bit of blood 

what do u think can he?


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## Vice (Jul 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> again refer to bonly scans. right before the raikiri kakashi at 5m or more could see zabuza with no issues
> 
> no mention of sharingan being the reason he could



Until he was close enough to him, Kakashi had no clue where Zabuza was and had to refer to the aid of sensors. Hidan does not have a sensor to locate Zabuza and Zabuza won't be getting right in front of his face to attack.



> also kakashi is shown blocking zabuza attack while zabuza is in the mist. So yh hidan would get the drop of blood



Kakashi is better and faster than Hidan. And blocking doesn't automatically mean drawing blood. If not for clone feinting, Kakashi would have been bisected too.



> 4 on 1 advantage? lol manga scans please



Kakashi engages Hidan here and is distracted by one of Kakuzu's mask clone... things.


*Spoiler*: __ 








4 on 1 might have been an exaggeration, but he was still handicapped against Hidan.



> yes zabuza is good at clone feinting hence why i said zabuza in the mist would fool hidan which may result in him winning its however not a stomp which i thought it was before



All he needs is one good shot and, like I said, Kakuzu's not there to put him back together. Once he's bisected, it's over. He won't die, but he'd be incapacitated.



> the issue here is can zabuza get the mist up before loosing a little bit of blood
> 
> what do u think can he?



Considering that his go-to move is the mist and he immediately brings it up as per canon, then yes. Once it's up he can rely on clone feinting, attacking blind spots and silent killing. 

If winning this match up necessitates him killing Hidan, then there's just no way he wins under those circumstances, but if incapacitating him counts, then he can easily do that more often than not.


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## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

> Vice said:
> 
> 
> > Until he was close enough to him, Kakashi had no clue where Zabuza was and had to refer to the aid of sensors. Hidan does not have a sensor to locate Zabuza and Zabuza won't be getting right in front of his face to attack
> ...


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