# Captain America (MCU) vs. Batman (DCCU)



## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2016)

You all knew this was coming.

Batman is in the gear he used against the goons in the warehouse.

*Location:* Random airport

Go.


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## shade0180 (May 13, 2016)

Cap tosses his shield.

 no seriously if both Thor and Iron man couldn't put a dent on that shield , why do you think batman could?


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## Hamaru (May 13, 2016)

Cap would destroy batman. He is stronger, faster, and has displayed incredible geometric work with his shield tossing.


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## Kenpachi TZ (May 13, 2016)

Wheeeeen Captain America throws his mighty shieeeeeeld... 

Pretty sure the only Batman outside of comics that would make this interesting is Arkham Batman.


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## Matta Clatta (May 13, 2016)

hmmm
Cap has more feats for strength and skill but I actually think Batman has better durability and speed 
I think Cap would win but it wouldn't be a stomp


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## shade0180 (May 13, 2016)

Matta Clatta said:


> Batman has better durability



You already got this wrong.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Adamant soul (May 13, 2016)

Matta Clatta said:


> hmmm
> Cap has more feats for strength and skill but I actually think Batman has better durability and speed
> I think Cap would win but it wouldn't be a stomp



Bucky was straight-up bullet timing in Civil War and Cap is his superior when serious. Not to mention taking hits from a bloodlusted Iron Man. In short, Cap has every advantage and this is indeed a stomp in his favour.


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## Kenpachi TZ (May 13, 2016)

Adamant soul said:


> Bucky was straight-up bullet timing in Civil War



Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Bucky was aim-blocking those bullets with his arm.

Otherwise, you're saying Bucky's in Quicksilver's ballpark which would be blatantly false since Cap can react to his punches, but not Quicksilver's.


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## Finalbeta (May 13, 2016)

CA wins of course


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## Kaaant (May 13, 2016)

Batman was reacting to Doomsday.


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## Black Leg Sanji (May 13, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Bucky was aim-blocking those bullets with his arm.
> 
> Otherwise, you're saying Bucky's in Quicksilver's ballpark which would be blatantly false since Cap can react to his punches, but not Quicksilver's.



Quicksilver is gonna be several hundred times faster than that if he gets the Mjolnir-scaling


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## kluang (May 13, 2016)

Batman dccu lacks feat. Cap mcu have five movie in his belt

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Matta Clatta (May 13, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> You already got this wrong.



No
Cap isn't bullet proof 
Cap can't tank explosions as we see in civil war

Cap's durability is almost dependent on his vibranium shield


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## Deer Lord (May 13, 2016)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Quicksilver is gonna be several hundred times faster than that if he gets the Mjolnir-scaling


QS will already be hypersonic+ from IM scaling since he is blatantly faster than the avengers


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## Lucaniel (May 13, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> You all knew this was coming.
> 
> Batman is in the gear he used against the goons in the warehouse.
> 
> ...


DO YOU BLEED 

YOU W-

[decapitated by shield]


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## Hamaru (May 13, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Bucky was aim-blocking those bullets with his arm.
> 
> Otherwise, you're saying Bucky's in Quicksilver's ballpark which would be blatantly false since Cap can react to his punches, but not Quicksilver's.


QS was much faster than bullets. He just didn't pay attention to them when he got hit the first time, and his lack of experience played a role too.


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## Sequester (May 13, 2016)

We talking movies? Then sure, Captain America would rock his shit from what we have seen in the one movie the current Batman has been in so far.


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## Kenpachi TZ (May 13, 2016)

Hamaru said:


> QS was much faster than bullets. He just didn't pay attention to them when he got hit the first time, and his lack of experience played a role too.



We've seen QS perceive bullets mid-flight, but never actually react to them. Not once, but *twice*. Hawkeye shot the glass out from under his feet, and all QS could manage was a confused look at the bullet in the air before falling through the glass. In Sokovia, he was shot while running in the same direction as the bullet meaning he was actually moving *slower* than the bullet.

Don't ask me how that makes sense or reconciles with MHS Mjolnir or whatever. I have no clue. I'm just reporting what AoU shows.

When @Adamant soul says that Bucky actually bullet-timed and blocked bullets with his arm, the implication is that he's, in light of the above, actually faster than QS. Something we know to be blatantly false as Cap can react to Bucky's attacks very well, yet couldn't even see QS's attacks. And QS wtfblitzed Cap twice, once in the forest scene and ship scene.

My point is that Bucky is not a bullet-timer and was aim-blocking bullets. I'm not really into how fast QS is or isn't.


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## Huey Freeman (May 13, 2016)

Cap would rock DCU batman, Cap put Spiderman on his ass and while he was pinned down with webbing. This Cap is easily a class 10 or 15


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## Hamaru (May 13, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> We've seen QS perceive bullets mid-flight, but never actually react to them. Not once, but *twice*. Hawkeye shot the glass out from under his feet, and all QS could manage was a confused look at the bullet in the air before falling through the glass. In Sokovia, he was shot while running in the same direction as the bullet meaning he was actually moving *slower* than the bullet.
> 
> Don't ask me how that makes sense or reconciles with MHS Mjolnir or whatever. I have no clue. I'm just reporting what AoU shows.
> 
> ...


I actually forgot about the same direction part. I'm sure that was just bad writing though. We know Tony already has Mach X armor, and Thor's hammer is fast as all hell. QS is supposed to be faster than both with some low-end inconsistencies. I still put a lot of that on the lack of experience though. They were never field tested before the movie.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2016)

Has anyone calculated the helicopter feat for Cap yet?


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## Deer Lord (May 13, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> We've seen QS perceive bullets mid-flight, but never actually react to them. Not once, but *twice*. Hawkeye shot the glass out from under his feet, and all QS could manage was a confused look at the bullet in the air before falling through the glass. In Sokovia, he was shot while running in the same direction as the bullet meaning he was actually moving *slower* than the bullet.
> 
> Don't ask me how that makes sense or reconciles with MHS Mjolnir or whatever. I have no clue. I'm just reporting what AoU shows.
> 
> ...


Are we ignoring that QS ran into a room caught a bullet fired by Klau and then neatly placed it on the desk?


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## Adamant soul (May 13, 2016)

Quicksilver's death was a pretty clear case of PIS because the writers wanted to kill somebody off. QS reacted to Mjolnir point-blank. Even with bullet timing Cap and WS are nowhere near QS for speed.



Matta Clatta said:


> No
> Cap isn't bullet proof
> Cap can't tank explosions as we see in civil war
> 
> Cap's durability is almost dependent on his vibranium shield



And taking a beating from both Bucky's metal arm and a bloodlusted Iron Man aren't durability feats especially since he got up and won both fights? Heck, Cap can punch hard enough to damage Iron Man without breaking his own hands, the same IM who no-sold tank shells in a weaker suit. Being bulletproof is nice and all but it's not stopping Cap from punching Batman's head off.


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## Lucaniel (May 13, 2016)

when we talk about how fast tony's armour is, we're not considering that he himself is still at human reaction speeds, right?


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## Kenpachi TZ (May 13, 2016)

Deer Lord said:


> Are we ignoring that QS ran into a room caught a bullet fired by Klau and then neatly placed it on the desk?



Yes. Three things:

QS unloaded his magazine and lined up the bullets.
All the bullets still had shell casings indicated he never caught the one Klau fired.
Klau literally took a shot in the dark, presumably at an already hard-to-see-in-broad-daylight blur.
I have the movie saved right here on my computer.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2016)

Yeah, what the hell is this 'Quicksilver can't react to bullets' nonsense?

Dude straight-up watched a bullet pass by his face with a bemused expression without realizing he was standing on glass.

He caught a bullet fired at him by Klaw, snatched it out of the air, and placed it neatly on the table.

He was only hit by a bullet in the arm because he wasn't looking at it.


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## Matta Clatta (May 13, 2016)

Quicksilver is pretty inconsistent in AoU that's why its so hard to say how fast he is
Its an obvious outlier to say he scales in reactions to Mjolnir in light of his death
The bullet timing is more reasonable but then you also have stuff like him getting shot too

Ultimately he's dead so yeah his feats end there


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## Punchsplosion (May 13, 2016)

Matta Clatta said:


> Quicksilver is pretty inconsistent in AoU that's why its so hard to say how fast he is
> Its an obvious outlier to say he scales in reactions to Mjolnir in light of his death
> The bullet timing is more reasonable but then you also have stuff like him getting shot too
> 
> Ultimately he's dead so yeah his feats end there



Getting shot while not looking at the bullets equals not being consistent?

Two times QS was shot.  One was when was running forward without being able to see the bullet coming from the side.  So, he couldn't see it coming.  Super speeds Hawkeye and the kid out of the way while the bullets are again coming from the side and gets hit in the back.


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## Hamaru (May 13, 2016)

I can't believe QS's speed is even debatable really. Anyways, as for the thread, Cap clearly wins.


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## Azrael Finalstar (May 14, 2016)

Honestly, does bats have any advantage?


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## Tranquil Fury (May 14, 2016)

Falcon could do this, forget Cap or Bucky.


shade0180 said:


> Cap tosses his shield.
> 
> no seriously if both Thor and Iron man couldn't put a dent on that shield , why do you think batman could?



Thor did IIRC but Cap was just sent back but otherwise fine. 



> Otherwise, you're saying Bucky's in Quicksilver's ballpark which would be blatantly false since Cap can react to his punches, but not Quicksilver's



Good thing Marvel cares so much for Quicksilver no one talks about him in the movie after his death. See also power creep. Cap in Civil War was doing stuff he could not prior, so was Falcon even. 



> Quicksilver is gonna be several hundred times faster than that if he gets the Mjolnir-scaling



Mjolnir fluctuates in speed setting, the fastest was in TDW but it's dubious if the hammer moved at escape velocity speed against Quicksilver. He dies to bullets which he can barely outspeed, we can safely assume it was not moving that fast then and Whedon did not overanalyse every scene in  TDW.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 14, 2016)

Falcon could do this, forget Cap or Bucky.


shade0180 said:


> Cap tosses his shield.
> 
> no seriously if both Thor and Iron man couldn't put a dent on that shield , why do you think batman could?



Thor did IIRC but Cap was just sent back but otherwise fine. 



> Otherwise, you're saying Bucky's in Quicksilver's ballpark which would be blatantly false since Cap can react to his punches, but not Quicksilver's



Good thing Marvel cares so much for Quicksilver no one talks about him in the movie after his death. See also power creep. Cap in Civil War was doing stuff he could not prior, so was Falcon even. 



> Quicksilver is gonna be several hundred times faster than that if he gets the Mjolnir-scaling



Mjolnir fluctuates in speed setting, the fastest was in TDW but it's dubious if the hammer moved at escape velocity speed against Quicksilver. He dies to bullets which he can barely outspeed, we can safely assume it was not moving that fast then and Whedon did not overanalyse every scene in  TDW.


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## Montanz (May 14, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Cap would rock DCU batman, Cap put Spiderman on his ass and while he was pinned down with webbing. This Cap is easily a class 10 or 15



Most likely it's just his jobber aura in full effect, Spiderman could overpower Bucky's arm casually and Cap almost got killed by it in more than one occasion.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 14, 2016)

Not really jobber aura so much as Peter not knowing how to fight without being completely predictable. Cap read all his moves and clowned him without needing to overpower his vastly superior strength.


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## Huey Freeman (May 15, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Most likely it's just his jobber aura in full effect, Spiderman could overpower Bucky's arm casually and Cap almost got killed by it in more than one occasion.


Capt is above Bucky most of their fights Steve was holding back.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 15, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Capt is above Bucky most of their fights Steve was holding back.



Cap definitely wasn't holding back in the highway fight in the Winter Soldier, and they were more or less even.

That said, I think Cap is still superior, but by a small margin.


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## Montanz (May 15, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Capt is above Bucky most of their fights Steve was holding back.


Maybe in skills, as far a raw strength goes Bucky has the clear upperhand with his arm.
Suggesting otherwise would create lots of inconsistencies within the movie itself, he also didn't outright overpower Spiderman as much he used basic physics against him, you can't just pull people who are heavier than you unless you have some leverage.


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## Huey Freeman (May 15, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Cap definitely wasn't holding back in the highway fight in the Winter Soldier, and they were more or less even.
> 
> That said, I think Cap is still superior, but by a small margin.


He suspected from the shield catch incident


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## Huey Freeman (May 15, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Maybe in skills, as far a raw strength goes Bucky has the clear upperhand with his arm.
> Suggesting otherwise would create lots of inconsistencies within the movie itself, he also didn't outright overpower Spiderman as much he used basic physics against him, you can't just pull people who are heavier than you unless you have some leverage.


Cap overpowered a helicopter from gaining lift, I think he's within the range to style on Spidey


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## ATastyMuffin (May 15, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> He suspected from the shield catch incident



lmao, where is your proof that he suspected it? The actual reveal took him completely off-guard.



The Mad King said:


> Cap overpowered a helicopter from gaining lift, I think he's within the range to style on Spidey



Not with strength. In raw strength, Cap is inferior with both arms to Bucky's single arm, whose punch was casually blocked by Spidey.


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## Montanz (May 15, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Cap overpowered a helicopter from gaining lift, I think he's within the range to style on Spidey



Most certainly but It's unlikely that he is outright as strong as Spidey here.


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## Huey Freeman (May 15, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> lmao, where is your proof that he suspected it? The actual reveal took him completely off-guard.
> 
> 
> 
> Not with strength. In raw strength, Cap is inferior with both arms to Bucky's single arm, whose punch was casually blocked by Spidey.


Because from then on out Capt was more interested in who was the soldier. When the reveal happen he wasn't all that shock but in disbelief that it was true


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## Huey Freeman (May 15, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Most certainly but It's unlikely that he is outright as strong as Spidey here.


He isn't as strong as Spidey but the way he styled Iron man, Spider-Man can't afford to take any hits from Capt either


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## ATastyMuffin (May 15, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Because from then on out Capt was more interested in who was the soldier. When the reveal happen he wasn't all that shock but in disbelief that it was true



What on earth are you talking about?

Cap was shocked as hell. He literally stood there gaping for five seconds straight before being able to muster a word. Give me one piece of evidence or implication that Cap knew or suspected Bucky was the Winter Soldier.


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## Gemmysaur (May 15, 2016)

This thread is derailing faster than Pietro dying.

Anyway, Cap wins over most non-comic Batmen.

West Batman might stomp with an Anti-Cap spray.


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## Hamaru (May 15, 2016)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Honestly, does bats have any advantage?


Brains...and money. Both wouldn't matter much here though.


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## Black Leg Sanji (May 15, 2016)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Mjolnir fluctuates in speed setting, the fastest was in TDW but it's dubious if the hammer moved at escape velocity speed against Quicksilver. He dies to bullets which he can barely outspeed, we can safely assume it was not moving that fast then and Whedon did not overanalyse every scene in  TDW.



There's still the IM-scaling which he gets since he's faster than the Avengers:



So hypersonic+ either way


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## Gemmysaur (May 15, 2016)

Thor's Mjolnir doesn't scale to anyone.

Thor throwing the hammer is pretty much scaled to his combat speed or somewhere there.

The hammer flying by itself is MHS~.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Deer Lord (May 15, 2016)

The Ironman feat pretty much scales to any high tier

Thor should get the MHS+ speed for when he flies with mjolnir tho


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## Gemmysaur (May 15, 2016)

What Iron Man feat is this again? The subsonic dodging a tank shell feat?

MHS+ Thor is possible, yes. He just probably doesn't like flying that fast.


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## Deer Lord (May 15, 2016)

No, the one where the mark 42 flies across a few states in under 2 mins.


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## Quad (May 15, 2016)

Imo Cap and Bucky beating Iron Man shouldn't be considered at all since that is way high out of what they are portrayed normally. 
As for the thread Batman gets murdered


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## Gemmysaur (May 15, 2016)

Deer Lord said:


> No, the one where the mark 42 flies across a few states in under 2 mins.



That's flight speed. Flight speed = reflexes.

Besides, Iron Man flies usually above buildings to travel. If not, fly by with enough spaces where he doesn't hit something if he goes in a straight line.

This goes ok enough with him having subsonic reflexes for dodging a tank shell and scaling from Loki who caught an arrow from a blindspot.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 16, 2016)

Why would Tony get scaling from Loki...?


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## Gemmysaur (May 16, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Why would Tony get scaling from Loki...?


Being up to par with each other through Thor.


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## Kenpachi TZ (May 16, 2016)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Falcon could do this, forget Cap or Bucky.



Batman's standard costume is bulletproof, even shrugging off two pistol shots to the head at point-blank range. He can grappling hook fast (and far) enough to avoid Doomsday.... twice.

He grappling hooks Falcon in the leg and proceeds to manually plant his face in the concrete.


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## Huey Freeman (May 16, 2016)

Quad said:


> Imo Cap and Bucky beating Iron Man shouldn't be considered at all since that is way high out of what they are portrayed normally.
> As for the thread Batman gets murdered


Actually this argument doesn't make any sense Winter Soldier feats was outside of the norm from the Capt previous 2 films and those were accepted. 

If Capt can overpower a helicopter, I don't see why he can't bust up iron man. Considering Tony Armor durability isn't all that and don't give me that tank feat either.


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## Divell (May 16, 2016)

Cap destroys Batsy. When Bat can lift a tank, we talk.


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## Lucaniel (May 16, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Batman's standard costume is bulletproof, even shrugging off two pistol shots to the head at point-blank range. He can grappling hook fast (and far) enough to avoid Doomsday.... twice.
> 
> He grappling hooks Falcon in the leg and proceeds to manually plant his face in the concrete.


redwing breaks his skull


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## The Runner (May 16, 2016)

Sam shoots him in the exposed mouth.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 16, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Batman's standard costume is bulletproof, even shrugging off two pistol shots to the head at point-blank range. He can grappling hook fast (and far) enough to avoid Doomsday.... twice.
> 
> He grappling hooks Falcon in the leg and proceeds to manually plant his face in the concrete.



A helicopter is drop kicked. If there is even a 1% chance of it killing him I have to take it as 100%.


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## Kenpachi TZ (May 17, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> redwing breaks his skull



What did Red Wing do in the movie, again? 



Sir Jogga said:


> Sam shoots him in the exposed mouth.



I'm sure Bruce has never thought of that before. 

This assumes Sam can quickdraw, aim and fire before Bruce can raise an arm to protect literally the only gaping hole in his costume.



Tranquil Fury said:


> A helicopter is drop kicked. If there is even a 1% chance of it killing him I have to take it as 100%.



What does that even mean?


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## Lucaniel (May 17, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> What did Red Wing do in the movie, again?


falcon divebombed iron man with redwing and it hit iron man hard enough to throw him for a loop


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## Kenpachi TZ (May 17, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> falcon divebombed iron man with redwing and it hit iron man hard enough to throw him for a loop



How did Falcon control Red Wing? Telepathically? Can it operate autonomously?

Regarding deployment, does it come out of his "bird costume"? 

Or is it a sideholster/briefcase sort of thing? Can he do it from the air?

Basically, I'm trying to assess how conveniently he can deploy it from a starting position on the ground and, if he can get it off before/as Bats goes for him, whether Red Wing is independent enough to bash Bats despite Falcon being preoccupied.

Being able to affect Iron Man is pretty fucking good, considering what Tony's suit can endure.


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## Lucaniel (May 17, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> How did Falcon control Red Wing? Telepathically? Can it operate autonomously?
> 
> Regarding deployment, does it come out of his "bird costume"?
> 
> ...


he has some kind of watch-type remote control on which he can pre-plot redwing's paths, _or_ if it's a straight dive-bomb like he did on IM, he can just launch it. and also it can operate autonomously with his prior instruction like it did when it snagged spider-man


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## Gemmysaur (May 17, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> also it can operate autonomously with his prior instruction like it did when it snagged spider-man



He was controlling it via his bracelet underneath the webbing when it snagged Spidey, but since it was flying somewhere by itself, I guess it has its own AI enough to maneuver and land or something.


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## Lucaniel (May 17, 2016)

Gemmysaur said:


> He was controlling it via his bracelet underneath the webbing when it snagged Spidey, but since it was flying somewhere by itself, I guess it has its own AI enough to maneuver and land or something.


that's why i said with his prior instruction


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## Quad (May 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Actually this argument doesn't make any sense Winter Soldier feats was outside of the norm from the Capt previous 2 films and those were accepted.


I am new to this forum so don't know what was the forum consensus on TWS, but for me its this argument that doesn't make sense. Other than the falls from the buildings, or the improved fighting and shield throw skills, or the beam lifting at the end there is nothing in TWS that was so above what was performed in the previous movies. Heck even the others aren't so above what he had done before. If I had my computer and few days time I would've gladly done a feat comparison between TWS abd the other movies. It was AOU and Civil War which really went above the norm, and even then none of the jumps were anywhere close to being bumped up to be able to trading blows with Iron Man 





The Mad King said:


> If Capt can overpower a helicopter, I don't see why he can't bust up iron man.


So you see Iron Man's durability being unable to stand upto something more than the lift-force provided by helicopter rotors? Wow. Guess you don't think much of him at all 



The Mad King said:


> Considering Tony Armor durability isn't all that and don't give me that tank feat either.


So being shot out of the air by an anti-aircaft gun out of the sky and falling to the ground at high speed enough to create a large crater and walking away from it with negligible damage is not okay to you? Okay. How about being caught in a missile explosion, shot at by F-22s with minimal damage and unharmed by crashing into an F-22 with enough force to wreck it while being unharmed which also happened just after the tank incident? That doesn't do? Okay. How about falling from three stories height with enough force to go right through two concrete floors and crush a sports car on the lowest one and being comletely unharmed? Or how about being barely scratched by mounted-gun fire in the cave suit until the bullets hit the exposed joints? How about, while being low on power being shot at by high power machine guns, get run over by a car, struck by the Iron Monger with a bike with enough force to cause it to explode and send flying with enough force to blow through a metal pole, wreck a car and dent the side of the bus, then kicked by Iron Monger, then slammed hard enough on the ground to crack concrete, stomped on by Iron Monger twice, then thrown with enough force to literally split am the bus in half, then struck by a missile, then bearhugged by Iron Monger but coming out of that with barely any damage? I could give even more but I am just not in the mood. Suffice to say even in the same movie whatever Cap did, Iron Man has taken and dished out way more


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## AgentAAA (May 19, 2016)

> I am new to this forum so don't know what was the forum consensus on TWS, but for me its this argument that doesn't make sense. Other than the falls from the buildings, or the improved fighting and shield throw skills, or the beam lifting at the end there is nothing in TWS that was so above what was performed in the previous movies. Heck even the others aren't so above what he had done before. If I had my computer and few days time I would've gladly done a feat comparison between TWS abd the other movies. It was AOU and Civil War which really went above the norm, and even then none of the jumps were anywhere close to being bumped up to be able to trading blows with Iron Man


Cap's already gone and traded blows with ultron for quite a period.
Doing the same with IM's not really out of left field.


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## BreakFlame (May 20, 2016)

Also, Cap and Bucky never really damaged IM's armor except with the arm and shield, right? I mean, Cap's shield is made from vibranium, so it smashing up the armor isn't really unusual. And while IM doesn't take much damage from those attacks you mentioned, he does get thrown around by them. So Cap's punches being able to knock him off balance isn't unusual either.


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## Gemmysaur (May 20, 2016)

Cap has only damaged Iron Man through bashing with the shield. His punches were doing pretty much nil other than throwing IM backwards a bit.

Bucky has only damaged Iron Man through his metal arm which has time and time again shown itself to be stronger than Cap. His punches were doing pretty much nil other than throwing IM backwards a bit.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 25, 2016)

Just what the hell is Bucky's arm made of?


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## Gemmysaur (May 25, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Just what the hell is Bucky's arm made of?


Likely military grade steel or something. That thing packs a punch, literally.

Now that I'd taken a long look at the arm, it reminds me of the Destroyer, especially when it does what looks like flexing, where the individual parts are moving.


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## The Runner (May 25, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Just what the hell is Bucky's arm made of?


Titanium, or military grade steel I dunno, considering the sheild cut cut through it without that much energy.


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## Gemmysaur (May 25, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Titanium, or military grade steel I dunno, considering the sheild cut cut through it without that much energy.


Afaik, the shield has never cut through it. Rather, it jammed through one of the arm's slits in Winter Soldier, disabling its movement temporarily.

But yeah, its possible with titanium being the likely material since it's a wee bit lighter than steel and has great tensile strength but is not as hard as titanium.


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## Kenpachi TZ (May 25, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Just what the hell is Bucky's arm made of?



I can't find a canon answer, just fan speculation with the "best guess" being a titanium alloy.


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## Quad (Jun 6, 2016)

Gemmysaur said:


> Cap has only damaged Iron Man through bashing with the shield. His punches were doing pretty much nil other than throwing IM backwards a bit.
> 
> Bucky has only damaged Iron Man through his metal arm which has time and time again shown itself to be stronger than Cap. His punches were doing pretty much nil other than throwing IM backwards a bit.



No, Watch the scene where Cap has IM in a sleeper hold again


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 6, 2016)

Quad said:


> No, Watch the scene where Cap has IM in a sleeper hold again



Sleeper hold?

Cap grabbing his neck with a steel cord did nothing but make IM fall due to compromised flight ability.

Cap mounting him from behind after a few blows post-fall from the steel cord thing, did nil. It looked more of him trying to remove the IM helmet hood if his hands' placement are any indication, which only got taken off when he bashed it with the shield.

Any other choking scenes I should look at? I can't remember any others at the moment.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 7, 2016)

Is Cap being able to take off Tony's helmet after repeatedly bashing it with his shield feasible? The Iron Man suit is durable as all heck, I imagine you could fire a grenade launcher straight in Iron Man's face and he would be more or less okay.


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Quad said:


> No, Watch the scene where Cap has IM in a sleeper hold again



When did CA put Iron Man in a sleeper hold in the movie? He got a whipcord around him and let gravity do its work pulling him down the shaft which is mainly only possible due to Tony being distracted and one of his thrusters being out and the other damaged.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> When did CA put Iron Man in a sleeper hold in the movie? He got a whipcord around him and let gravity do its work pulling him down the shaft which is mainly only possible due to Tony being distracted and one of his thrusters being out and the other damaged.



After Cap and Iron Man fell like fifty feet downwards, they started a hand-to-hand fight prior to Bucky joining the fray. During that time, Cap put Tony in a sleeper hold, which was retaliated by a thrust from his repulsors to throw him off. Right after, Iron Man climbed on top of Cap and started to beat him until Bucky joined to even it out.


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Actually this argument doesn't make any sense Winter Soldier feats was outside of the norm from the Capt previous 2 films and those were accepted.
> 
> If Capt can overpower a helicopter, I don't see why he can't bust up iron man. Considering Tony Armor durability isn't all that and don't give me that tank feat either.



I'm pretty sure it was established more than once Cap is more powerful than Iron man physically (Bucky snapped his hand and Cap is physcally on par with him, he was beating the pis out of Tony and he was helpless because as Friday said he can't beat him hand to hand)

The movie's secondary point seemed to be hammering into the audience that Cap is as superhuman as superhuman can be (even going pretty overboard with some of his feats) same with BP


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> After Cap and Iron Man fell like fifty feet downwards, they started a hand-to-hand fight prior to Bucky joining the fray. During that time, Cap put Tony in a sleeper hold, which was retaliated by a thrust from his repulsors to throw him off. Right after, Iron Man climbed on top of Cap and started to beat him until Bucky joined to even it out.



You mean Cap's failed choke hold? That really isn't working out for Cap.



Crackle said:


> I'm pretty sure it was established more than once Cap is more powerful than Iron man physically



No it wasn't. In fact the majority of damage done to Tony's Iron Man armor was by Cap's shield, not his own physical strength or attacks.



> (Bucky snapped his hand and Cap is physcally on par with him, he was beating the pis out of Tony and he was helpless because as Friday said he can't beat him hand to hand)



Even two on one, Iron Man was beating both them until that convenient deus ex machina kicked in at the last second and Captain America gets a bullshit scene to throw down Tony. Even without using his replusors or unibeams, Tony completely destroyed Rogers in hand to hand combat once his shield was removed from the equation.



> The movie's secondary point seemed to be hammering into the audience that Cap is as superhuman as superhuman can be (even going pretty overboard with some of his feats) same with BP



And so? Neither are on par with Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Quicksilver, etc...


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

kluang said:


> Batman dccu lacks feat. Cap mcu have five movie in his belt


Well actually thats not true speed wise he has a few feats (outpacing a gas explosion form close range and keeping up reaction wise with DD, WW and Supes)


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## BreakFlame (Jun 7, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Is Cap being able to take off Tony's helmet after repeatedly bashing it with his shield feasible? The Iron Man suit is durable as all heck, I imagine you could fire a grenade launcher straight in Iron Man's face and he would be more or less okay.



He can take a tank shell to the face and be fine.

A Vibranium edge driven home by a superhuman soldier with a rage boner is something entirely different, however.


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 7, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Is Cap being able to take off Tony's helmet after repeatedly bashing it with his shield feasible? The Iron Man suit is durable as all heck, I imagine you could fire a grenade launcher straight in Iron Man's face and he would be more or less okay.



Armor's durability might've been compromised post-Sokovia since they were being pelted about being vigilantes and what not.

Also, listen to Iron Man and War Machine landing next to each other and note the difference in sound. IM is light as fcuk which might, read might, tell us something about the durability of his armor.

Not to mention the part where Vibranium >>> any material Tony could get so its completely plausible that Cap can break off the helmet full of places to fold that weakens the overall durability of it.



ATastyMuffin said:


> After Cap and Iron Man fell like fifty feet downwards, they started a hand-to-hand fight prior to Bucky joining the fray. During that time, Cap put Tony in a sleeper hold, which was retaliated by a thrust from his repulsors to throw him off. Right after, Iron Man climbed on top of Cap and started to beat him until Bucky joined to even it out.



This is my reply to the chokehold thing.


Gemmysaur said:


> Cap mounting him from behind after a few blows post-fall from the steel cord thing, did nil. It looked more of him trying to remove the IM helmet hood if his hands' placement are any indication, which only got taken off when he bashed it with the shield.


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

The suit he was using in CA: CW was the Mark 46, which uses a vibranium based ark reactor but the suit is noted as being a lighter variant based more around speed and replusor/unibeam weapon systems then full on strength or physical power; its physically inferior to the suit he was using in the first Avengers movie.


Also even one of Tony's earliest models was already capable of supersonic flight speed.


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## Quad (Jun 7, 2016)

Isn't a spark there? Or is it simply a glow? Or here







Fang said:


> The suit he was using in CA: CW was the Mark 46, which uses a vibranium based ark reactor but the suit is noted as being a lighter variant based more around speed and replusor/unibeam weapon systems then full on strength or physical power; its physically inferior to the suit he was using in the first Avengers movie.


That's seems cool and plausible explanation, but is the source you took it from valid?
And Iron Man restrained Spider Man after the armor taking quite some damage after the airport battle


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Did you actually watch Iron-Man 2 or 3?


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> You mean Cap's failed choke hold? That really isn't working out for Cap.
> 
> No it wasn't. In fact the majority of damage done to Tony's Iron Man armor was by Cap's shield, not his own physical strength or attacks.
> 
> ...



1.....Doesn't matter. Cap was overpowering him on atleats 2 occasions, Bucky did too

2. That's because of his armor and repulsor beams. He didn't land a single decent hit physically until pre-cog set in

3. Again only because of pre-cog and he still needed his repulsor beams to finish the job which Cap tanked point-blank.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Quad (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> Did you actually watch Iron-Man 2 or 3?



If you are simply basing it off the previous movies, I would agree whole heartedly that the armor in civil war was weaker than all the previous armors. I was wondering were this virbanium reactor came from since I don't remember anything of the sort being stated in Civil War or in any related websites


Crackle said:


> he still needed his repulsor beams to finish the job which Cap tanked point-blank.


The worst part about that was IM kod Cap with one shot before, now three aren't enough?


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 7, 2016)

Vibranium reactor doesn't help in any way with durability if it is even true in the first place. Source for that? It's lightweightedness is maybe because its shell is carbon nanofiber or something of that weight class considering Tony was moving after getting the reactor stabbed with a vibranium shield.

Most armors post-dogfight however iirc is supersonic+ (Hulkbuster, the jackhammer-armed armor and likely some others are most likely not up to par speedwise) while Shotgun armor being hypersonic.

Regardless, the CACW suit is weaker overall compared to say the Thor-fight IM, Sokovia IM and NY-invasion IM. It looks more like something he'd wear in a situation where speed is key. He'd have probably gone with the Sokovia armor if he wanted a prolonged or heavy fight.


*Spoiler*: __


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Quad said:


> If you are simply basing it off the previous movies, I would agree whole heartedly that the armor in civil war was weaker than all the previous armors. I was wondering were this virbanium reactor came from since I don't remember anything of the sort being stated in Civil War or in any related websites
> 
> The worst part about that was IM kod Cap with one shot before, now three aren't enough?



He replaced the palladium based ark reactor in his chest (the one that was poisoning him slowly to death) in Iron Man 2 with a vibranium one. Which he has been using since Iron Man 2.


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> 1.....Doesn't matter. Cap was overpowering him on atleats 2 occasions, Bucky did too



Neither overpowered him one on one. The very start of the final fight has Tony flying into Bucky before he can react after sending Cap flying and dazzed from a backhand smack, and putting his fist to Bucky's face before Cap knocked his aim away with a shield throw. Do you understand this? Bucky facing Tony in his Mark 46 armor without outside aid was going to die right then and there.



> 2. That's because of his armor and repulsor beams. He didn't land a single decent hit physically until pre-cog set in



Wrong. Also what precognition?



> 3. Again only because of pre-cog and he still needed his repulsor beams to finish the job which Cap tanked point-blank.



There is no precognition for Tony. Secondly, the moment he removed the shield from Captain America, he literally had him bleeding and staggering just with his punches. Stop lying.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Jun 7, 2016)

Gemmysaur said:


> Most armors post-dogfight however iirc is supersonic+ (Hulkbuster, the jackhammer-armed armor and likely some others are most likely not up to par speedwise) while Shotgun armor being hypersonic.



If Tony's speed is drawn from how fast his armour parts can travel in IM3, why wouldn't Hulkbuster scale to Veronica's deployment system which should scale to his armour parts?


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> Neither overpowered him one on one. The very start of the final fight has Tony flying into Bucky before he can react after sending Cap flying and dazzed from a backhand smack, and putting his fist to Bucky's face before Cap knocked his aim away with a shield throw. Do you understand this? Bucky facing Tony in his Mark 46 armor without outside aid was going to die right then and there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Cap kept Tony from flying off full force without any visible form of effort. Bucky pulled away one of Iron Man's hands way from him (which astounded Tony) and then crqcked the repulsor and was even beginning to crush his hand. Bucky slammed Iron man against the wall and nearly ripped his arc reactor out with Tony powerless to stop him. Cap was beating the crap out of him and had him against the wall with Friday confirming to Tony that they don't stand a chance against him in a physical fight

2. Friday memorized his fighting style and did the rest of the fighting after that because she could predict his movements physically

3. Again because of Friday, pre-cog and repulsors...

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 7, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> If Tony's speed is drawn from how fast his armour parts can travel in IM3, why wouldn't Hulkbuster scale to Veronica's deployment system which should scale to his armour parts?



Veronica's modular repair system is fast. Hulkbuster itself is not. Also, iirc, Tony's flight speed is from him outspeeding a jet as well as catching up to a nuke.



Crackle said:


> Cap was beating the crap out of him and had him against the wall with Friday confirming to Tony that they don't stand a chance against him in a physical fight



Friday said he can't do shit in hand to hand against the current top dog of hand to hand combat in the MCU. That just means he's horribly outclassed in skill. Soldier heavily trained in martial arts >>>> An engineer who spends most of his time in the lab with some training.



Crackle said:


> 2. Friday memorized his fighting style and did the rest of the fighting after that because she could predict his movements physically
> 
> 3. Again because of Friday, pre-cog and repulsors...



It wasn't precog at all. Friday memorized Cap's attack pattern in that one exchange just enough to get the shield off him as it was the only thing doing any real damage (see Cap punching IM's helmet doing nil but gets to remove it quickly with the shield). After that was Cap being shocked at his shield being taken away, hence he got caught off-guard and taken down.

After that was Cap doing a different move entirely, he lifted IM well above his head and slammed him back-of-the-neck first at a concrete something.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> Friday confirming to Tony that they don't stand a chance against him in a physical fight



Which is a bit odd. Considering what happened with WS!Bucky:


His armour has been hit with all kinds of crazy shit that's pretty high out of Cap's league for that not to be PIS.


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Gemmysaur said:


> Veronica's modular repair system is fast. Hulkbuster itself is not. Also, iirc, Tony's flight speed is from him outspeeding a jet as well as catching up to a nuke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If Iron Man was physically stronger it really wouldn't have mattered.

It is pre-cog. Predicting the opponent's moves is exactly what pre-cog is...


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> If Iron Man was physically stronger it really wouldn't have mattered.
> 
> It is pre-cog. Predicting the opponent's moves is exactly what pre-cog is...



No. What Friday did is called analysis. Tony said it himself, "Analyze his fight pattern."

After getting the shield away from Cap, he was still fighting on par, but that was where brute strength advantage was kicking in as Cap had no way to mitigate that without the shield. But even then, Tony was resorting to using Repulsor tech to boost his attacks.

Physical strength can only get you so far when you can't hit for shit. Cap and Bucky were very much better fighters that IM is barely even managing a hit on them. That's what Friday was pointing out when she said "You can't beat him hand to hand".


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> 1. Cap kept Tony from flying off full force with one hand casually.



>Casually

Nope.



> Bucky pulled away one of Iron Man's hands way from him (which astounded Tony) and then crushed the repulsor.



So basically you're a liar. Because you completely ignored how the fight started and Tony never commenting or saying anything about Bucky's strength; i.e. "astounded" is something your making up from your ass and was barely able to move that shot from his face.



> Bucky slammed Iron man against teh wall and nearly ripped his arc reactor out with Tony powerless to stop him. Cap was beating the crap out of him and had him against the wall with Friday confirming to Tony that they don't stand a chance against him in a physical fight




Let's repeat how the fight goes down, dupe kun because you clearly are lying even with a video that leaves out small parts of the fight:

1.) Tony dazes Captain America with a casual backhand right at the start of the fight
2.) Bucky blocks a repulor shot at close range and tries to grapple Tony's arm
3.) Tony overpowers him and flies across the room grappling him to the floor
4.) He then pins him with his foot and is about to shoot him in the face as Bucky is unable to do ANYTHING until Captain America recovers and throws his shield to knock off Tony's aim from splattering Bucky's head
5.) Tony responds by punching Captain America whose blocking with his shield and is still sent several meters backwards
6.) The fight going back to Bucky vs Tony has Tony putting him against the wall
7.) Bucky is using the full strength of his artifical arm to damage the lens of the replusor emitter in his hand and then redirects the missile shot
8.) Said explosion from Tony's mini-missile causes large scale damage in the facility room and Tony's Mark 46 suit is damaged from debris
9.) The bullshit again about "casually" stopping Tony with one arm is exaggeration; he was clearly shown visibly straining and resorted to bashing on Tony's leg with his shield repeatedly
10.) He catches up to Bucky and visibly winds him with a single kick and is about to finish him off again before Captain America gets between the two and deflects a repulsor shot that would've killed Bucky; which hits Tony and knocks him down a level; again taking more damage
11.) Captain America gets a whipcord and drags Tony down to the floor of the facility while Tony careens into the walls several times
12.) Once he blows the hatch closed and Tony catches up with Bucky, Bucky comes at him with a pipe; which leads to Tony getting hit once with no damage shown or implied and starting to choke Bucky out with it
13.) While Tony is flying down the shaft while grappling Bucky and choking him out with his pipe, PIS has Tony levitate down to where Captain America is waiting to intervene, sending all three crashing back to the floor
14.) Both Bucky and Captain America are more dazed and stunned then Tony who recovers the first and fastest
15.) When Tony and Rogers/Captain America engage in a fist fight when Captain America doesn't have a shield, it clearly shows Cap is losing the fist fight; right before Bucky intervenes Captain America is on his back and being punched and pummeled by Tony
16.) The flow of the fight is altered only after Bucky adds into the fight and brings Captain America's shield; and this starts with him hitting Tony from behind in the back with said vibranium shield
17.) Tony tries to shoot Bucky with his replusor which Bucky blocks with the shield then tosses it back to Captain America; all the subsequent damage to Tony is done via the shield itself
18.) Once Tony gets a shot in after being 2 on 1ed by Bucky and Cap on the Cap with his replusor, Bucky catches his focused replusor blast and forces his aim up
19.) The only damage Bucky is doing is trying to crush the most fragile part of Tony's armor, his faceplate, with his artificial arm before Tony blows it off and then stunning him with another shot that leaves him completely out of the fight
20.) Captain America engages Iron Man 1 on 1; which is only due to his shield keeping him in the fight from Tony's replusor blasts
21.) Then Captain America is close enough to constantly bash and hit Tony while Tony isn't able to keep up since its not his skill set to fight in close combat in the first place
22.) Only damage is being done via bashing from Cap with his shield against Tony's armor
23.) Once Friday analyzes his fighting pattern, he halts the shield with a hand which Captain America can't match with his strength then blasts the shield away
24.) He gets several punches in then blasts Captain America away

So to summarize; even with the numbers advantage, tag teaming and team work, and several factors hammpering and handicapping Tony, Captain America and the Winter Soldier got their asses handed to them by Tony.



> 2. Friday memorized his fighting style and did the rest of the fighting after that because she could predict his movements physically



Nice head cannon bullshit. All Friday did was analyze his fighting style and then Tony removed the shield from the equation completely, which lead to Captain America's defeat. She didn't take over for fighting him at all.



> 3. Again because of Friday, pre-cog and repulsors...



Again, wrong.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Gemmysaur said:


> No. What Friday did is called analysis. Tony said it himself, "Analyze his fight pattern."
> 
> After getting the shield away from Cap, he was still fighting on par, but that was where brute strength advantage was kicking in as Cap had no way to mitigate that without the shield. But even then, Tony was resorting to using Repulsor tech to boost his attacks.
> 
> Physical strength can only get you so far when you can't hit for shit. Cap and Bucky were very much better fighters that IM is barely even managing a hit on them. That's what Friday was pointing out when she said "You can't beat him hand to hand".



lol no. She was analyzing his fight pattern to predict his moves....hence why he Cap was immediately backed into a corner next. It's also a direct reference to the comics where Tony did exactly this. Memorized his fight patter to to counter all of his moves before he made them. "I know you're next move before you do". Exact same idea here

Except if he was stronger he could have restrained him then attacked....he couldn't and Cap and Bucky have proven multiple times that they can with him.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Gemmysaur said:


> No. What Friday did is called analysis. Tony said it himself, "Analyze his fight pattern."



Correct.



> After getting the shield away from Cap, he was still fighting on par, but that was where brute strength advantage was kicking in as Cap had no way to mitigate that without the shield. But even then, Tony was resorting to using Repulsor tech to boost his attacks.



Once Tony removed Cap's shield, he was pummeling him and we see Cap is massively bleeding before he sends him flying with a replusor blast. Even well before that, Tony was smacking around Bucky physically pretty easily.



> Physical strength can only get you so far when you can't hit for shit. Cap and Bucky were very much better fighters that IM is barely even managing a hit on them. That's what Friday was pointing out when she said "You can't beat him hand to hand".



Captain America with his shield against a damaged Iron-Man whose handicapped is a better fighter in hand to hand combat then Tony. Bucky? Not at all. Either way, even in his Mark 46 armor which doesn't compare to the Mark 42, Mark 5, Mark 6 or Mark 7 in strength, his physical power is well beyond what Captain America and the Winter Soldier can deal with.

You don't tangle with Thor or Loki or Ultron and be inferior to Captain America.


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> >Casually
> 
> Nope.
> 
> ...



1. No effort = casual.....so yes

2. he was astounded....Bucky was pulling his hand away and Tony looked astounded....do you even know what the word liar means?

3. this was probably the most pointless thing you could have listed.

4. You do realized that analyzing his fight pattern to pre-counter all his moves is pre-cog.....

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Quad (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> He replaced the palladium based ark reactor in his chest (the one that was poisoning him slowly to death) in Iron Man 2 with a vibranium one. Which he has been using since Iron Man 2.


No, that was not vibranium. It was a new element Howard had found, now Tony made it using his formula. Hoawrd already knew about Vibranium so why wouldn't he mention that in the notes?


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> 1. No effort = casual.....so yes
> 
> 2. he was astounded....Bucky was pulling his hand away and Tony looked astounded....do you even know what the word liar means?
> 
> ...



You have no idea what your talking about, don't know what precognition is, and are outed as a liar. No one is buying it.



Quad said:


> No, that was not vibranium. It was a new element Howard had found, now Tony made it using his formula. Hoawrd already knew about Vibranium so why wouldn't he mention that in the notes?



Wrong. The vibranium Tony discovered and created from Howard's notes is based off of the latter's research of the Tessearct. Tony never knew about it until Iron Man 2 and later when Fury had other material sent to Tony. Which also explains why Loki's attempt to mind control Tony failed since both his scepter and Tony's arc reactor use the same material.


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## Quad (Jun 7, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Which is a bit odd. Considering what happened with WS!Bucky:
> 
> 
> His armour has been hit with all kinds of crazy shit that's pretty high out of Cap's league for that not to be PIS.


That's what I hate about this movie. In terms of power levels and fighting capability this movie contradicts itself over and over again


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> You have no idea what your talking about, don't know what precognition is, and are outed as a liar. No one is buying it.


I'm not hearing a contradiction only whining.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Kenpachi TZ (Jun 7, 2016)

Gemmysaur said:


> Veronica's modular repair system is fast. Hulkbuster itself is not. Also, iirc, Tony's flight speed is from him outspeeding a jet as well as catching up to a nuke.



How fast is a Quinjet in comparison to the jet/nuke? 

Can it accelerate and perform hairpin turns like the standard armour? Hell no.

But it certainly scales to (if not somewhat outstrips) Hulk in physical stats. And Hulk can jump onto a Quinjet speeding away from him.


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> I'm not hearing a contradiction only whining.



I already contradicted your arguments with my previous post, your jelly isn't changing anything.



Kenpachi TZ said:


> How fast is a Quinjet in comparison to the jet/nuke?
> 
> Can it accelerate and perform hairpin turns like the standard armour? Hell no.
> 
> But it certainly scales to Hulk in physical stats. And Hulk can jump onto a Quinjet speeding away from him.



Fuck if I know but Hulkbuster is definitely one of Tony's slowest armors.


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> I already contradicted your arguments with my previous post, your jelly isn't changing anything.


I'm guessing you didn't actually read my response....Do tell how predicting another character's movements to counter them ahead of time isn't pre-cog.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Quad (Jun 7, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> In Sokovia, *he was shot while running in the same direction as the bullet* meaning he was actually moving slower than the bullet.


No he wasn't


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Quad said:


> No he wasn't


The fuck was he  even punching?


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> I'm guessing you didn't actually read my response....Do tell how predicting another character's movements to counter them ahead of time isn't pre-cog.



I'm guessing you are either blind or clinically obstinate to the point of having some sort of mental deficiency since you ignored actually anything and everything my last post pointing out how you were lying about the final fight in Civil War. And you still don't understand or know how precognition is and that Tony has nothing of the sort from Friday analyzing Cap's fighting style.


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> lol no. She was analyzing his fight pattern to predict his moves....hence why he Cap was immediately backed into a corner next. It's also a direct reference to the comics where Tony did exactly this. Memorized his fight patter to to counter all of his moves before he made them. "I know you're next move before you do". Exact same idea here
> 
> Except if he was stronger he could have restrained him then attacked....he couldn't and Cap and Bucky have proven multiple times that they can with him.



She analyzed his fighting style to get a counterattack on. She even called it. "Countermeasures ready." That was when IM was able to catch a single blow (which is not very surprising considering both of them have subsonic reflexes) and remove the shield from Cap, catch another punch and get one repulsor in.

Still, even with this "precog" IM has, he was only able to beat Cap back through brute force as Cap was still clutching his stomach from the repulsor shot when IM capitalized and beat him with a multiple blows.

That didn't look to have precog anywhere.



Kenpachi TZ said:


> How fast is a Quinjet in comparison to the jet/nuke?
> 
> Can it accelerate and perform hairpin turns like the standard armour? Hell no.
> 
> But it certainly scales to (if not somewhat outstrips) Hulk in physical stats. And Hulk can jump onto a Quinjet speeding away from him.



Hulk's movement speed is from his jumps. He never jumped away during his fight with Hulkbuster so HB's flightspeed is still unchecked other than that it flew to the unfinished skyscraper which in itself is not at all impressive.

Still, Hulk jumped and caught up to a quinjet that just finished its dive to shoot at stuff and was on its way upwards again. That looks to be easier to catch as it was low and had to accelerate once more to get up.

What about performing hairpins? The standard IM armor can do that, the supersonic jet and nuke, as well as Hulkbuster can't. Hulk most especially can't.

Besides, Hulkbuster wasn't even in need of speed as Hulk was constantly getting back to wail at him.



Crackle said:


> The fuck was he even punching?



Probably nothing and he was just cheering or something considering his face but that's just me.


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## Quad (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> The fuck was he  even punching?


Trying to get in close to the Ultron drones


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> I'm guessing you are either blind or clinically obstinate to the point of having some sort of mental deficiency since you ignored actually anything and everything my last post pointing out how you were lying about the final fight in Civil War. And you still don't understand or know how precognition is and that Tony has nothing of the sort from Friday analyzing Cap's fighting style.


What do you think he was analyzing his movements for....also literally nothing in the video contradicted what I said. Didn't bother reading your list which consisted i'm sure of retarded reasoning and multiple forms of strawman. Which seems to be your only real form of debating.


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Gemmysaur said:


> She analyzed his fighting style to get a counterattack on. She even called it. "Countermeasures ready." That was when IM was able to catch a single blow (which is not very surprising considering both of them have subsonic reflexes) and remove the shield from Cap, catch another punch and get one repulsor in.
> 
> Still, even with this "precog" IM has, he was only able to beat Cap back through brute force as Cap was still clutching his stomach from the repulsor shot when IM capitalized and beat him with a multiple blows.
> 
> That didn't look to have precog anywhere.



Which would fall under pre-cog. memorizing his fighting style to counter his every move before he makes them is pre-cog. And again he didn't even overpower him he still needed his repulsors to do some of the job. Which is consistent with Bucky and Cap overpowering him multiple times.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Quad (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> Correct.
> You don't tangle with Thor or Loki or Ultron and be inferior to Captain America.


Those were other armors


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> What do you think he was analyzing his movements for



Analyzing, studying, and countering someone's fighting style and attack patterns aren't the same as knowing what they'll do before they do it. Its not precognition.



> ....also literally nothing in the video contradicted what I said.



Cute delusions.



> Didn't bother reading your list which consisted i'm sure of retarded reasoning and multiple forms of strawman. Which seems to be your only real form of debating.



You don't know what a strawman argument is either, while you attempt to make use of a textbox poisoning the well fallacy. How adorably hilarious, you're just rapidly losing what little credibility you have with every post you make.


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Quad said:


> Those were other armors



Which I mentioned, however the Mark 46 is superior to the Mark 42 which was used in both Iron Man 3 and the first Avengers movie. So my point still stands.


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> Analyzing, studying, and countering someone's fighting style and attack patterns aren't the same as knowing what they'll do before they do it. Its not precognition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She was analyzing his movements and fight pattern to pre-counter his moves....how is this not pre-cog?

Again no contradiction given. 

Strawman incorrectly qouting someone else to make them look bad....again all you've got. And you still have nothing.


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> She was analyzing his movements and fight pattern to pre-counter his moves....how is this not pre-cog?



Because that's not how precognition, works dupe kun. Does a boxer studying his opponent's techniques and movements before a match and during it equate to precognition? Nope, its not flying.



> Again no contradiction given



Again: you lied, got called out, and explains why your just shitposting with stale bait and recycled one liners instead of trying to rebuke my post there for what is now the 5th or 6th time. More or less I'll accept this as your inarticulate form of conceding.



> Strawman incorrectly qouting someone else to make them look bad....again all you've got. And you still have nothing.



That's not what a strawman argument is at all. A strawman would me attacking you falsely on a point or claim you never made, which I never did. You're just looking worse for wear here every time you open your mouth.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> Which would fall under pre-cog. memorizing his fighting style to counter his every move before he makes them is pre-cog. And again he didn't even overpower him he still needed his repulsors to do some of the job. Which is consistent with Bucky and Cap overpowering him multiple times.



He countered 2 punches. That's not precog at all. Every other blow that connected to Cap is because he was dazed from the repulsor to the gut/chest. That's basic combat instinct. 

Spidey showed us precog when he shouted "Oh god!" at Bucky throwing something at him from a blindspot, then proceeding to throw it back.


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Gemmysaur said:


> He countered 2 punches. That's not precog at all. Every other blow that connected to Cap is because he was dazed from the repulsor to the gut/chest. That's basic combat instinct.
> 
> Spidey showed us precog when he shouted "Oh god!" at Bucky throwing something at him from a blindspot, then proceeding to throw it back.



No it's not....Friday analyzed Cap's movements to pre-counter them hence why Iron man turned the tables on him so fast and was able to counter his moves...predicting another character's moves is pre-cog this is a limited form of it but still pre-cog.


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> Because that's not how precognition, works dupe kun. Does a boxer studying his opponent's techniques and movements before a match and during it equate to precognition? Nope, its not flying.



If a boxer had a computer that did the fighting for him and countered it perfectly because of it the computer would have pre-cog yes. A limited form  again but still pre-cog

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 2


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Tony obviously wasn't overwhelming Cap out of pure skill...that contradicts your earlier argument and is directly contradicted with Friday's statement of bot being able to counter or fight him hand to hand.


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> If a boxer had a computer that did the fighting for him and countered it perfectly because of it the computer would have pre-cog yes. A limited form  again but still pre-cog



Its not precognition. Its not Iron Man knowing what Captain America will do before he does it, its Friday analyzing the data in how Captain America fights to give Tony the ability to counter his attacks by having the data to know what Captain America will do with his punches and physical attacks as it happens, not before it. That's not how precognition works so it is not precognition period. My example still holds on how fallacious and inane your claim is.



Crackle said:


> Tony obviously wasn't overwhelming Cap out of pure skill...that contradicts your earlier argument and is directly contradicted with Friday's statement of bot being able to counter or fight him hand to hand.



Triple posting the same bullshit isn't going to save you face any more then the loss you already have with possessing next to no credibility at this point. She points out to a damaged Iron Man that he can't beat him in hand to hand combat because he has him against the wall and is pounding him with the vibranium shield.

You don't know what contradiction means either on top of precognition as far usage or definitions in the English language.


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## Crackle (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> *Its not precognition. Its not Iron Man knowing what Captain America will do before he does i*t, its Friday analyzing the data in how Captain America fights to give Tony the ability to counter his attacks. That's not how precognition works so it is not precognition period. My example still holds on how fallacious and inane your claim is.


It's Friday knowing....Friday is part of the suit and was fighting. She analyzed his movements to pre-counter them that is exactly pre-cog.

I like how your argument is "it's not pre-cog its friday analyzing cap's moves so Tony can counter them ahead of time"...which would still be pre-cog.


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> It's Friday knowing....Friday is part of the suit and was fighting. She analyzed his movements to pre-counter them that is exactly pre-cog.



There is no "pre-counter", at all here. Friday is the AI that Tony built, Friday simply acts as a processor for all intents and purposes who gives battle analysis and data or other combat information to Tony much as JARVIS did before her. He countered Captain America's attacks as they happened with the information she supplied once she analyzed how Captain America was attacking.



> I like how your argument is "it's not pre-cog its friday analyzing cap's moves so Tony can counter them ahead of time"...which would still be pre-cog.



And I said "as" they happened, not before hand.

This is another example of you making non sequiters and strawmans. So far we've discovered:

- you don't know what contradict or contraction means
- you don't know what or how precognition is
- you make frequent fallacious arguments
- you didn't rebuke my earlier post and repeated one liners
- you continue to ignore evidence and arguments that debunk your claims
- you are simply shitposting at this point


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> No it's not....Friday analyzed Cap's movements to pre-counter them hence why Iron man turned the tables on him so fast and was able to counter his moves...predicting another character's moves is pre-cog this is a limited form of it but still pre-cog.



We can agree to disagree as this is getting nowhere but the fact still stands that Friday only analyzed Cap's movement of punching left, punching right, left, right continuously. Tony is capable of catching some of the blows, just not consecutively as Cap can attack faster than he can defend.


*Spoiler*: __ 




IM blocking a blow from Cap out of all the ones he threw.





When Friday shouted "Countermeasures ready!", it was the signal for him to catch a blow and likely for her to counter with a repulsor shot via partially controlling the suit at that exact moment. This is implied by Tony saying "*Let's* kick his ass."


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## Kenpachi TZ (Jun 7, 2016)

Quad said:


> No he wasn't



It's not parallel. But it's not a significantly different direction either.



Gemmysaur said:


> Hulk's movement speed is from his jumps. He never jumped away during his fight with Hulkbuster so HB's flightspeed is still unchecked other than that it flew to the unfinished skyscraper which in itself is not at all impressive.



Fair point.



Gemmysaur said:


> Still, Hulk jumped and caught up to a quinjet that just finished its dive to shoot at stuff and was on its way upwards again. That looks to be easier to catch as it was low and had to accelerate once more to get up.



I wouldn't think so. A Quinjet still in takeoff wasn't that much slower than Iron Man:


While the Hulkbuster might not scale to IM, Hulk's jumps definitely should.



Gemmysaur said:


> Besides, Hulkbuster wasn't even in need of speed as Hulk was constantly getting back to wail at him.



He does have one showing of blitzing Hulk to drag his face across the street. But I'm not sure where Hulk's reactions stand for us to get any kind of speed from it.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 7, 2016)

not going to touch this too much as I care so little about MCU PL's at this point, but figured I'd address the precog:

Precognition is being able to see the future ahead of time. the word literally means "foreknowledge of an event", but in the case of superpowers it means being able to know of or see events before they happen.
What Friday was doing was more of a skill amp if we go off the "analyzed the fighting style" thing. it made it easier to see what Cap was _likely_ to do according to his fighting pattern at the moment. on the other hand, if it was perfect by any means, Tony wouldn't be on the ground at the end of civil war. That is not true precognition.


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Only reason Tony was on the ground was because the movie title is literally Captain America: Civil War. Even weaker suits like the Mark 5 were capable of providing enough thrust and super strength for him to pick up things far heavier and with greater thrust then a guy whose best feat is going all out to hold down a small helicopter.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> Only reason Tony was on the ground was because the movie title is literally Captain America: Civil War. Even weaker suits like the Mark 5 were capable of providing enough thrust and super strength for him to pick up things far heavier and with greater thrust then a guy whose best feat is going all out to hold down a small helicopter.



from a feats standpoint we got what we got. probly be an outlier but either way it happened.
well, that and his best feat's probably exceeding spider-man in ability later.


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Its definitely an outlier of the highest sort


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## shade0180 (Jun 7, 2016)

Crackle said:


> 4. You do realized that analyzing his fight pattern to pre-counter all his moves is pre-cog.....


It isn't

Pre-cog is when you can see the future without really doing shit.

Analyzing shit and responding to it isn't. It might look like pre-cog to any normal person but that's how probabilities work.. which is very far from precognitive ability.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Runner (Jun 7, 2016)

In his first movie, he was peak human in the standard of barely able to bend a steel bar

In the avengers he was schooling chitari soldiers like child's play

In Winter Soldier he was obviously superfucking human with all dem flips and shit n' keeping up with an obviously superhuman mother fucker

In avengers 2 he was throwing motorcycles and keeping up with Ultron to an extent (although he was still outmatched)

Now in Civil War he's outrunning cars and keeping on up with a reluctant Ironman 

It's not an outlier when there isn't any middle ground. Mother fucker is just increasing as shit goes along.

Plus, in was 2 on 1 with Tony still dominating. He would have won if he actually went for the kill shot with Cap, but he won't because he's focused solely on Bucky, which let them wear him down to their level as the fight progressed.


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> It's not an outlier when there isn't any middle ground. Mother fucker is just increasing as shit goes along.
> 
> Plus, in was 2 on 1 with Tony still dominating. He would have won if he actually went for the kill shot with Cap, but he won't because he's focused solely on Bucky, which let them wear him down to their level as the fight progressed.



I was talking about it being an outlier because regardless of his feats, Tony's are well above him even with older weaker models keeping up and trading blows with Thor, Loki, Ultron, hits from tanks, AA guns, vs the Mandarin/AIM boss, etc...Hell even the Mark III, the final suit he uses in the first movie was unscathed outside of being hit by a tank's anti-air shell and tossing cars like it was nothing and outpaces fucking F-22A Raptors which can BVR and go supersonic.


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## The Runner (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> I was talking about it being an outlier because regardless of his feats, Tony's are well above him even with older weaker models keeping up and trading blows with Thor, Loki, Ultron,


Cap kept up with Loki and Ultron too. And I don't think he ever fought Thor. A character who was made very much clear to be superior to Tony's typical armours and the like, and yet Tony was ale to keep up to a point. Just like with Steve and Ultron.



> hits from tanks, AA guns, vs the Mandarin/AIM boss, etc...Hell even the Mark III, the final suit he uses in the first movie was unscathed outside of being hit by a tank's anti-air shell and tossing cars like it was nothing and outpaces fucking F-22A Raptors which can BVR and go supersonic.


The suit was probably a lesser suit, considering all Tony did to put it on was press a button on a helicopter, so it probably had less durability.

Regardless, it was made clear in the movie that Tony would have absolutely floored Cap if it was one on one. However it was 2 on 1, and Tony was too deep in CIS, which allowed him to be worn down.

I agree with you that Tony is WAY above Steve with his suits. But this is a Dark Knight Returns situation, ultimately. And there is nothing we can do about it.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> I was talking about it being an outlier because regardless of his feats, Tony's are well above him even with older weaker models keeping up and trading blows with Thor, Loki, Ultron, hits from tanks, AA guns, vs the Mandarin/AIM boss, etc...Hell even the Mark III, the final suit he uses in the first movie was unscathed outside of being hit by a tank's anti-air shell and tossing cars like it was nothing and outpaces fucking F-22A Raptors which can BVR and go supersonic.


to be fair Cap has ALSO traded blows with Ultron, who should be above anything in the MCU.
I have issues believing it's an outlier rather than just power creep, though it's not like the showings actually put cap above IM - had to 2 on 1 him while holding half a dozen significant advantages off the top of my head to actually sorta win.

might also just have to do with the exacts of the suit he brought, too.


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Cap kept up with Loki and Ultron too.



You mean a Loki who was clearly holding back and intentionally allowed himself to be captured by Captain America and Iron Man? I don't think so.



> And I don't think he ever fought Thor. A character who was made very much clear to be superior to Tony's typical armours and the like, and yet Tony was ale to keep up to a point. Just like with Steve and Ultron.



I was talking about Tony. And the Mark VII isn't superior to the Mark 46, said suit was knocking around Thor and absorbing the electrical/lightning blasts from Mjolnir. Its a far cry and away from Cap being completely out of his element facing the scales of Loki and Ultron vs Iron Man fighting Thor.



> The suit was probably a lesser suit



The Mark 46 is based off the Bleeding Edge armor and is clearly not a "lesser suit".



> considering all Tony did to put it on was press a button on a helicopter, so it probably had less durability.



Zero evidence of that. In fact the Mark 46 has multiple built in reactors in it, so its power and performance would be considerably better then the Mark V, Mark VI and VII Tony used in Iron Man 3, Avengers, and Age of Ultron.



> Regardless, it was made clear in the movie that Tony would have absolutely floored Cap if it was one on one. However it was 2 on 1, and Tony was too deep in CIS, which allowed him to be worn down.



Considering Tony had already Bucky on his back and was about to shoot him in the face right at the start of the fight within a few moments, it was solely PIS that gave the win to Captain America.



> I agree with you that Tony is WAY above Steve with his suits. But this is a Dark Knight Returns situation, ultimately. And there is nothing we can do about it.



It was jobbing, doesn't mean it carries over into the actual battledome.



AgentAAA said:


> to be fair Cap has ALSO traded blows with Ultron, who should be above anything in the MCU.



Not really. All he did was block shots from Ultron's blasts and constantly hit him with the shield, once again his physical stats and actual capabilities which are clearly inferior are being masked by the vibranium shield he gets to run around with as a +10 stat booster. In fact after he loses his shield, surprise surprise, he goes from a failed attempt to grappling Ultron to getting choked out like a bitch. And again he only survives because Black Widow retrieved his shield for him which he uses to knock away Ultron. In fact most of the fight is Captain America being slapped around in close combat by Ultron.

I would not call that trading blows. Because that would equal parity.



> I have issues believing it's an outlier rather than just power creep, though it's not like the showings actually put cap above IM - had to 2 on 1 him while holding half a dozen significant advantages off the top of my head to actually sorta win.
> 
> might also just have to do with the exacts of the suit he brought, too.



Once again: the Mark 46 is not inferior to the Marks V through Mark VII. Captain America won with jobbing, yes there were multiple handicaps going against Tony but he is no way legitimately batting at that average with Tony's general level. That's the point.


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## The Runner (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> You mean a Loki who was clearly holding back and intentionally allowed himself to be captured by Captain America and Iron Man? I don't think so.


Loki was obviously clearing the floor with Cap. Doesn't deny the fact that Cap was tough enough to sentd him reeling.




> I was talking about Tony. And the Mark VII isn't superior to the Mark 46, said suit was knocking around Thor and absorbing the electrical/lightning blasts from Mjolnir. Its a far cry and away from Cap being completely out of his element facing the scales of Loki and Ultron vs Iron Man fighting Thor.


Thor was slower, so Tony got more his in and knocked him back more than once. Yet Thor was generally unharmed, and was destroying Tony whenever he actually had his hands on him. The fight made it clear that, while Tony could get more hits in, Thor was tougher than his casual armours.




> *The Mark 46 is based off the Bleeding Edge armor* and is clearly not a "lesser suit".


Like that matters at all.




> Zero evidence of that. In fact the Mark 46 has multiple built in reactors in it, so its power and performance would be considerably better then the Mark V, Mark VI and VII Tony used in Iron Man 3, Avengers, and Age of Ultron.


We both know that its mostly for design's sake. Plus, WAS that the same suit he used in the Air port scene? Tony has a lot of suits dude.




> Considering Tony had already Bucky on his back and was about to shoot him in the face right at the start of the fight within a few moments, it was solely PIS that gave the win to Captain America.


Really? Steve was the one who SAVED Bucky when Tony was going to shoot him. 

That's pretty much the entire fight. Tony has been a hairsbreadth away from either killing Bucky or schooling Steve the entire time were it not for the other saving them. Even when Cap and Tony were in one on one at the end, Tony was clearly winning. Had it not been for Bucky distracting Tony, Steve would have lost. It was also established that Tony's suit was slowly word down as the fight went on.



> It was jobbing, doesn't mean it carries over into the actual battledome.


I would agree with you if it were solely Cap vs Tony. But this was Steve and Bucky Vs Tony, with Tony demonstrating to be superior were it not for CIS.




> Not really. All he did was block shots from Ultron's blasts and constantly hit him with the shield, once again his physical stats and actual capabilities which are clearly inferior are being masked by the vibranium shield he gets to run around with as a +10 stat booster. In fact after he loses his shield, surprise surprise, he goes from a failed attempt to grappling Ultron to getting choked out like a bitch. And again he only survives because Black Widow retrieved his shield for him which he uses to knock away Ultron. In fact most of the fight is Captain America being slapped around in close combat by Ultron.
> 
> I would not call that trading blows. Because that would equal parity.


Steve tanked Ultrons repulser rays twice, he successfully grappled with him twice, and was able to not get his teeth kicked in whenever he actually got hit by Ultron's fists.

Ultron was Superior. Nobody denied that. Steve still demonstrated he was tough enough to actually fight the guy.


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 7, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> I wouldn't think so. A Quinjet still in takeoff wasn't that much slower than Iron Man:



It wasn't. The quinjet should at least be supersonic scaling from a regular jet. IM is supersonic+ iirc. Minor speed gap, major flight maneuverability.



Kenpachi TZ said:


> While the Hulkbuster might not scale to IM, Hulk's jumps definitely should.



Yes. But only for one bound at a time. IM has sustained flight. Hulkbuster is just a slow flyer by comparison by showings.



Kenpachi TZ said:


> He does have one showing of blitzing Hulk to drag his face across the street. But I'm not sure where Hulk's reactions stand for us to get any kind of speed from it.



He didn't blitz. Tony at least has some semblance of combat training. Hulk is a pure brute. He got outplayed that one moment and got faceplanted as consequence.



Sir Jogga said:


> Cap kept up with Loki and Ultron too. And I don't think he ever fought Thor. A character who was made very much clear to be superior to Tony's typical armours and the like, and yet Tony was ale to keep up to a point. Just like with Steve and Ultron.



Cap kept up with Loki, yes. Loki's face showed frustration that he was getting outskilled, but in the end, Cap didn't do shit as he was still getting mopped around.

Ultron, Cap had a better showing against, but ultimately looked to be on the losing end.

Tony's prior armors showed physical superiority over Cap. CACW armor as well, but not on the level as the previous ones. Tony got hurt from being a catch basin for raining cars, but previous armors showed he can throw down with Thor and not get stomped.


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## Fang (Jun 7, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Loki was obviously clearing the floor with Cap. Doesn't deny the fact that Cap was tough enough to sentd him reeling.



The only time Loki "reeled" was when he deflected a blast from Loki's scepter back into his chest, his physical attacks weren't doing jackshit to him. Its being disingenuous, man. He was frustrating Loki but he really wasn't doing shit to him otherwise. And remember Loki's entire plan was to get captured by throwing the fight with Cap in the first place.



> Thor was slower



Not really.



> Yet Thor was generally unharmed, and was destroying Tony whenever he actually had his hands on him. The fight made it clear that, while Tony could get more hits in, Thor was tougher than his casual armours.



First off, the fight was a stalemate. Secondly, Tony threw around Thor several times and was legitimately giving hm back equally in blows if not more so with even just his own punches, not even getting into his replusor blasts. Your entire argument for this is him partially damaging Tony's hand and wrist armor when he was clearly applying his full strength but that does not conclude Thor was more powerful then Tony.



> Like that matters at all.



What matters is that:

- the Mark 46 is Tony's overall most powerful, fastest, and advanced armor and is only surpassed by the Hulkbuster in power
- the Mark 46's official stats include a passive energy/deflector shield, multiple reactors, nanotechnology, greater thrust, a more advanced AI that replaced JARVIS, and a host of other abilities which include the general power output and everything else simply being better then its predecessors
- which leads to the point it was not some throwaway "casual" armor



> We both know that its mostly for design's sake. Plus, WAS that the same suit he used in the Air port scene? Tony has a lot of suits dude.



What the fuck does "mostly for design's sake" mean? Tony is an engineer and scientist, he is constantly upgrading and building newer and more advanced suits.  The Mark 46 is Tony's best armor to date and is notably more advanced then every other iterations of the Iron Man armor models thus far.

And yes it was the same suit he was using throughout Civil War.



> Really? Steve was the one who SAVED Bucky when Tony was going to shoot him.



That's exactly what I said except I'm asking you to remember the very start of fight.



> That's pretty much the entire fight. Tony has been a hairsbreadth away from either killing Bucky or schooling Steve the entire time were it not for the other saving them. Even when Cap and Tony were in one on one at the end, Tony was clearly winning. Had it not been for Bucky distracting Tony, Steve would have lost. It was also established that Tony's suit was slowly word down as the fight went on.



It wasn't "worn down", it was damaged by a variety of factors that were more related to damage from debris and environmental situation then anything Bucky or Cap actually did.



> I would agree with you if it were solely Cap vs Tony. But this was Steve and Bucky Vs Tony, with Tony demonstrating to be superior were it not for CIS.



Tony is superior period. Even factoring it was 2 on 1, in a setting and location that favored Bucky and Rogers, with Tony holding back somewhat against Cap to not kill him until the end, he's very clearly above either's paygrade together if not for CIS/PIS bullocks.



> Steve tanked Ultrons repulser rays twice



By tanked you mean thrown on his ass and sent rolling casually?



> he successfully grappled with him twice, and was able to not get his teeth kicked in whenever he actually got hit by Ultron's fists.



By successfully grappling you mean the first time when Ultron is choking him out and the second time they both crash into the metro car? Because both of those are reaching for "successfully grappling" claims.



> Ultron was Superior. Nobody denied that. Steve still demonstrated he was tough enough to actually fight the guy.



When Widow showed up to save his ass and bring him his shield back and that he's far more durable and acrobatic, but he was getting choked and throttled by Ultron casually and most of the damage he did again was surprise surprise, due to his shield which is a major factor of his fighting abilities. I'm not saying Captain America isn't a blatant superhuman, I'm just saying he's clearly welllllll below the big hitters here.


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 7, 2016)

Fang said:


> First off, the fight was a stalemate. Secondly, Tony threw around Thor several times and was legitimately giving hm back equally in blows if not more so with even just his own punches, not even getting into his replusor blasts. Your entire argument for this is him partially damaging Tony's hand and wrist armor when he was clearly applying his full strength but that does not conclude Thor was more powerful then Tony.



I'm not refuting a point but I'd just like to point out that Thor wasn't at his base power level, but lower at the time of the Avengers.

It was evident throughout the movie that he was weakened; his lightning required charging against Iron Man when he could casually pull a big one in Jotunheim, his landing just before the big climax was bad that he had to lean on a car when he was casually landing with enough force to crack the ground he stepped on in Thor 2, and that he wasn't throwing as hard as the time in Jotunheim where he casually threw Mjolnir through multiple frost giants.

But yeah, Thor afflicted with dark magic was still being matched by Tony despite the shellhead not doing much more than pissing him off.


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## Fang (Jun 8, 2016)

Gemmysaur said:


> I'm not refuting a point but I'd just like to point out that Thor wasn't at his base power level, but lower at the time of the Avengers.
> 
> It was evident throughout the movie that he was weakened; his lightning required charging against Iron Man when he could casually pull a big one in Jotunheim, his landing just before the big climax was bad that he had to lean on a car when he was casually landing with enough force to crack the ground he stepped on in Thor 2, and that he wasn't throwing as hard as the time in Jotunheim where he casually threw Mjolnir through multiple frost giants.
> 
> But yeah, Thor afflicted with dark magic was still being matched by Tony despite the shellhead not doing much more than pissing him off.



Do you have any actual statements or proof Thor was weaker?


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## The Runner (Jun 8, 2016)

Fang said:


> The only time Loki "reeled" was when he deflected a blast from Loki's scepter back into his chest, his physical attacks weren't doing jackshit to him. Its being disingenuous, man. He was frustrating Loki but he really wasn't doing shit to him otherwise. And remember Loki's entire plan was to get captured by throwing the fight with Cap in the first place.


Loki didn't throw the fight to Cap tho. Like I SAID, Loki was clearing the floor with Cap, with Cap getting some good hit in once or twice(He clearly sent him back once). It wasn't until Tony appeared that Loki gave up



> Not really.


In that fight, Thor moved more sluggish. Tony was swift, and was the one laying the hits more. Thor was tanking every hit Tony made, even the heavy ones that sent him reeling.

Thor was a Sliding Glacier, Tony was a lightning bruser.

But this is beside the point, isn't it?



> First off, the fight was a stalemate. Secondly, Tony threw around Thor several times and was legitimately giving hm back equally in blows if not more so with even just his own punches, not even getting into his replusor blasts. Your entire argument for this is him partially damaging Tony's hand and wrist armor when he was clearly applying his full strength but that does not conclude Thor was more powerful then Tony.


Above post




> What matters is that:
> 
> - the Mark 46 is Tony's overall most powerful, fastest, and advanced armor and is only surpassed by the Hulkbuster in power
> - the Mark 46's official stats include a passive energy/deflector shield, multiple reactors, nanotechnology, greater thrust, a more advanced AI that replaced JARVIS, and a host of other abilities which include the general power output and everything else simply being better then its predecessors
> - which leads to the point it was not some throwaway "casual" armor


Yeah but what about feats? Data books are nice and dandy but is there actual evidence in the film that the Armor is physically superior to his other armours?

Is it even the same armour?




> What the fuck does "mostly for design's sake" mean? Tony is an engineer and scientist, he is constantly upgrading and building newer and more advanced suits.  The Mark 46 is Tony's best armor to date and is notably more advanced then every other iterations of the Iron Man armor models thus far.
> 
> It has more arc reactors. Great. Did it add anything to the plot? No. That means that its there mostly for show.
> 
> And yes it was the same suit he was using throughout Civil War.


It has more arc reactors. Great. Did it add anything to the plot? No. That means that its there mostly for show.

Also really? I find it hard to believe that its the same suit he used all the time in the movie. Although that would make more sense now, considering that suit has been taking a huge beating since. It being fucked over by cars and shit like that.



> That's exactly what I said except I'm asking you to remember the very start of fight.
> 
> It wasn't "worn down", it was damaged by a variety of factors that were more related to damage from debris and environmental situation then anything Bucky or Cap actually did.


Bucky destroyed Tony's left(?) repulser blaster.

Steve fucked up Tony's flight enough so when he –Steve– took Tony by surprise at the end of the fight

Aside from the cars in the airport scene, what did the falling debris do aside from pinning Tony down long enough for him to not catch Bucky instantly?



> Tony is superior period. Even factoring it was 2 on 1, in a setting and location that favored Bucky and Rogers, with Tony holding back somewhat against Cap to not kill him until the end, he's very clearly above either's paygrade together if not for CIS/PIS bullocks.


Oh no shit sherlock. That's what im talking about here. Tony was superior to both Steve and Bucky throughout the entire fight. 

PIS: The location favoured Steve and Bucky enough to wear down the suit

CIS: Tony holding back against Steve, effectively allowing him (Steve) to sneak up on him more than once.

Each were a hairsbreadth away from getting their teeth knocked in. Even when they double teamed Tony he eventually got Steve knocked back for a while and had Bucky's arm torn off. It was Bucky distracting Tony that cost Tony the fight.



> By tanked you mean thrown on his ass and sent rolling casually?


I meant like routinely coming back from said blasts to keep on fighting Ultron, despite also crashing into cars. That's tanking.



> By successfully grappling you mean the first time when Ultron is choking him out and the second time they both crash into the metro car? Because both of those are reaching for "successfully grappling" claims.


I meant like that time Steve threw Ultron at the Pillar, and when Cap legitimately used Ultron's momentum to crash each other to the train.



> When Widow showed up to save his ass and bring him his shield back and that he's far more durable and acrobatic, but he was getting choked and throttled by Ultron casually and most of the damage he did again was surprise surprise, due to his shield which is a major factor of his fighting abilities. I'm not saying Captain America isn't a blatant superhuman, I'm just saying he's clearly welllllll below the big hitters here.


Oh hey, Steve's shield is part of his arsenal so it doesn't fucking matter 

Oh hey, I already made it clear Ultron was superior in the fight

Oh hey, everything here is irrelevant 

Seriously dude, sometimes I wonder if you are just arguing with the air.


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## The Runner (Jun 8, 2016)

Fuck there is too much text there.

@Fang I give up dude. I'm too lazy for this shit.


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 8, 2016)

Fang said:


> Do you have any actual statements or proof Thor was weaker?



Other than those I already stated? This tie-in comic to the Avengers.


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## Fang (Jun 8, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Loki didn't throw the fight to Cap tho. Like I SAID, Loki was clearing the floor with Cap, with Cap getting some good hit in once or twice(He clearly sent him back once). It wasn't until Tony appeared that Loki gave up



He intentionally gave up because his entire plan was to be captured to divide the Avengers and set them against each other in the first place. Only time he's ever knocked on his ass is when Cap jumps in when he was about to blast the old German man and Cap deflects his blast into him.


He really didn't do shit to Loki.



> In that fight, Thor moved more sluggish. Tony was swift, and was the one laying the hits more. Thor was tanking every hit Tony made, even the heavy ones that sent him reeling.



I don't see Thor being sluggish or slow there.



> Thor was a Sliding Glacier, Tony was a lightning bruser.



Are you using TV Tropes cliches?



> But this is beside the point, isn't it?



In the tangent that I've established that Captain America really has no business fighting people at the levels of Thor, Loki, Ultron, Iron Man, etc...? Not really, its pretty relevant.



> Above post



Nah.



> Yeah but what about feats?



What about simple observable powerscaling? I've already given plenty of evidence and reasoning for it being his most advanced and powerful armor to date besides the Hulkbuster, we're not ignoring that for the sake of convenience when it doesn't suit the narrative here. 



> Data books are nice and dandy but is there actual evidence in the film that the Armor is physically superior to his other armours?



So far:

- its faster then all of his other armors
- it has better and more advanced power sources and more reactors then his other armors and is the only one to feature multiple ones
- has nanotechnology
- features higher output pettawatt lasers and more powerful replusors
- can recharge its weapons and fire them faster
- improved and enhanced energy shield
- Sentry Mode
- prehensile technology that allows him to mentally summon and control the armor like we saw with the Mark VI and Mark VII in Iron Man 3 and the first Avengers film 
- 360 degree vision

Its his best armor, that simple.



> Is it even the same armour?



Of course it is.



> It has more arc reactors. Great. Did it add anything to the plot? No. That means that its there mostly for show.



Doesn't work that way, buddy. Canon data and simple observation shows it has a higher output, greater power plant, faster speed, and so on. Its more advanced, that's what it adds to the plot for Tony's character, so you don't get to dismiss it.



> Also really? I find it hard to believe that its the same suit he used all the time in the movie. Although that would make more sense now, considering that suit has been taking a huge beating since. It being fucked over by cars and shit like that.



He uses the Mark 46 throughout the entirety of the film and doesn't take any damage in it until the end of the film with the final fight.



> Bucky destroyed Tony's left(?) repulser blaster.



The lens/beam emitter in the plam, not the actual armor itself.



> Steve fucked up Tony's flight enough so when he –Steve– took Tony by surprise at the end of the fight



Flight? That was earlier in the fight when he caught the back of Tony's foot when he was distracted chasing Bucky, and again with the shield. 



> Aside from the cars in the airport scene, what did the falling debris do aside from pinning Tony down long enough for him to not catch Bucky instantly?



I would imagine several hundreds of tons of steel, reinforced concrete and other debris hitting and falling on Tony from a violent explosion that seals a massive gate designed to prevent bombardments would do some damage to Tony's suit, which we see when it cuts back to Tony's HDU with the flickering and static playing in.




> Oh no shit sherlock. That's what im talking about here. Tony was superior to both Steve and Bucky throughout the entire fight.
> 
> PIS: The location favoured Steve and Bucky enough to wear down the suit
> 
> ...



Then we agree.



> I meant like routinely coming back from said blasts to keep on fighting Ultron, despite also crashing into cars. That's tanking.



He was tanking them in the sense he wasn't dying or being fatally or even seriously injured however they were clearly effecting him. But they were winding him and knocking him around. Same shit with Tony in CW, Ultron could've simply kept his distance and blasted Captain America into a bloodstain but the writing made him come in close but again I want to point out he was being choked out by Ultron till Widow showed up and brought his shield which he used again to get himself free to keep fighting.



> I meant like that time Steve threw Ultron at the Pillar, and when Cap legitimately used Ultron's momentum to crash each other to the train.



I'm aware of both of those.



> Oh hey, Steve's shield is part of his arsenal so it doesn't fucking matter]/quote]
> 
> Steve's shield being his weapon doesn't magically translate to his own physical stats, which is what I've been repeating for dozens of times now. When he doesn't have it, he's not capable of doing shit to people above him.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Jun 8, 2016)

Gemmysaur said:


> Other than those I already stated? This tie-in comic to the Avengers.



And does it state how much Thor was affected? Because otherwise is simple unknown variable there. 

"He's weaker?"
"By how much?"
"Fuck if I know"


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## AgentAAA (Jun 8, 2016)

Not going to directly quote the WoT, but I find it a little ridiculous to call Cap beating Iron man an outlier.
Is Cap still Weaker?
Yes.
Did cap not tank those blasts, punches, etc.?
Still yes.



> He was tanking them in the sense he wasn't dying or being fatally or even seriously injured however they were clearly effecting him



That's still used for durability. If you're not arguing for that whatever, but if you take a hit, you have no vital injuries, you're able to take blows at that level in combat.

if he's not being turned into a red paste he's clearly at that level of dura/DC. that's generally how it goes, and while I'm not saying it ='s him being stronger than tony, it's notable that there's basically no way IM was soloing Ultron, either.}
if we're just arguing for tiers, whatever, but saying Cap doesn't scale to the numerous hits he was taking and giving(with the vibranium shield amping his hits at the very least) seems pretty off to me. We'd have to ignore both his showings against Tony and Ultron, which makes me a bit incredulous given the actual sample size we're working with.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 8, 2016)

I don't think that Cap/Bucky beating Tony with a bunch of plot-related factors involved is all that nonsensical or stupid, honestly. Tony was restricted to hand-to-hand and repulsor blasts once they fell while Cap/Bucky were unhandicapped. Tony was actually beating Cap until Bucky joined the fray, and even after that, Tony still had the clear advantage until Bucky distracted him and Cap capitalized on the opportunity.

Obviously, Cap isn't superior to Tony, lol. It's ultimately a TDKR scenario all over again, as another poster pointed out, but without dumb green auto-win. A lot of conveniences worked out for Team Cap that disadvantaged Tony, including not really wanting to kill Steve.

I also think the Mark 46 was intentionally built as a lighter, less physically powerful model than the previous ones. You can tell by how light it sounds when it lands at the airport at the scene's beginning, or how flexibly it moves compared to previous models. Look at the Iron Man vs. War Machine fight in Iron Man 2 () and notice how terribly sluggish their physical attacks are, compared to Mark 46 in Civil War whose movements are much quicker and more fluid almost resembling that of actual human movement. Tony clearly traded strength for speed, and even then it's clear that Mark 46 is still quite a bit physically stronger than Cap or Bucky (excluding his metal arm, which seems to be about on-par).

For the record, bringing up thruster-related feats such as lifting a transport vehicle or pushing a helicarrier's turbines as reasons for Tony being nerfed or dumb writing is irrelevant since those were accomplished using the propulsion from his boot repulsors, which almost never came into play against Cap/Bucky except when Tony knocked Cap's on his ass with the boosted punch. 

By the way, does anyone remember the first Iron Man? Tony struggled to lift a car without his boot repulsors, just the suit's physical strength, I recall Jarvis going 'power down to 19%' or something just from carrying it. That is perfectly in-line with Tony's suits being substantially but not obscenely above Cap/Bucky in physical strength without the repulsor factor. And this isn't taking into account how Mark 46 might have been intentionally built as weaker as a trade-off for speed and flexibility.


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## Fang (Jun 8, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> Not going to directly quote the WoT, but I find it a little ridiculous to call Cap beating Iron man an outlier.
> Is Cap still Weaker?
> Yes.
> Did cap not tank those blasts, punches, etc.?
> Still yes.



Considering two punches to Cap's face had him badly bleeding and already winded even before he got blasted, he was not tanking those. Or do you honestly want to argue that?



> That's still used for durability. If you're not arguing for that whatever, but if you take a hit, you have no vital injuries, you're able to take blows at that level in combat.



That's not how tanking works.


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## Fang (Jun 8, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I don't think that Cap/Bucky beating Tony with a bunch of plot-related factors involved is all that nonsensical or stupid, honestly.



It was being argued it was nonsensical with the amount of factors and variables required to make Tony lose that looks dumb.



> Tony was restricted to hand-to-hand and repulsor blasts once they fell while Cap/Bucky were unhandicapped. Tony was actually beating Cap until Bucky joined the fray, and even after that, Tony still had the clear advantage until Bucky distracted him and Cap capitalized on the opportunity.



We all know this.



> Obviously, Cap isn't superior to Tony, lol. It's ultimately a TDKR scenario all over again, as another poster pointed out, but without dumb green auto-win. A lot of conveniences worked out for Team Cap that disadvantaged Tony, including not really wanting to kill Steve.



Again: we all know this.



> I also think the Mark 46 was intentionally built as a lighter, less physically powerful model than the previous ones.



There's no evidence of this at all.



> You can tell by how light it sounds when it lands at the airport at the scene's beginning, or how flexibly it moves compared to previous models.



Because its more advanced and less bulky, the suit is more formfitting and based on human anatomy then previous iterations of earlier models. Hence its less bulky.



> Tony clearly traded strength for speed



No, he didn't. Again there is literally zero evidence, no proof, and no statements about the Mark 46 being weaker physically then the Mark 45, Mark 42, Mark VII, and so on at all.



> By the way, does anyone remember the first Iron Man? Tony struggled to lift a car without his boot repulsors, just the suit's physical strength, I recall Jarvis going 'power down to 19%' or something just from carrying it.



The Mark III was built to be used and powered by Tony's proper upgraded new Arc Reactor after he returned home when escaping from Afghanistan. When Stane stole it and left Tony for dead, he had to make use of the old Arc Reactor that Pepper regifted him which isn't suited for the Mark III, hence why he was operating with less power and less time to use the suit to beat the Iron Monger/Stane and the Mark III's performance visibly drops as a result.





> That is perfectly in-line with Tony's suits being substantially but not obscenely above Cap/Bucky in physical strength without the repulsor factor. And this isn't taking into account how Mark 46 might have been intentionally built as weaker as a trade-off for speed and flexibility.



Provide evidence and actual proof the Mark 46 is physically inferior to any of the other earlier suits. Because there is really nothing supporting this at all.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jun 8, 2016)

Ooooohhh, cool matchup. When I saw  Batman v Superman, I thought that  the DCCU Batman could take either Cap or Bucky in a fight (since Batman seems blatantly superhuman there).......but that was based on The Winter Soldier. Then Civil War came out and Cap prevented a helicopter from taking off and withstood a beating from the Ironman armor and I realized Batman stood no chance.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 8, 2016)

Fang said:


> Considering two punches to Cap's face had him badly bleeding and already winded even before he got blasted, he was not tanking those. Or do you honestly want to argue that?
> 
> 
> 
> That's not how tanking works.


y...
Yeah, it is.
If you can take hits at a certain level, and you're not really wounded, that's pretty much tanking. It means if someone else hits you with a blow of that level, you can take it and not lose the battle. you don't only get a durability feat from completely no-selling an attack.

Even ignoring that, past battles with ultron make this not an outlier, as it's presented, given he's actually having a tougher time with tony than he was ultron(basically due to the fact that Ultron stuck to HtH, but point stands) . that combined with the small sample size of the movies makes me feel this isn't an actual outlier.
Cap would lose in a straight fight, but he'd also be able to take Tony's casual physical hits for a while (he certainly did in civil war) and do damage to similarly powerful people with his shield, basically. which is all he needs for batman.


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## Fang (Jun 8, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> y...
> Yeah, it is.
> If you can take hits at a certain level, and you're not really wounded, that's pretty much tanking. It means if someone else hits you with a blow of that level, you can take it and not lose the battle. you don't only get a durability feat from completely no-selling an attack.
> 
> ...



Except he really was wounded, staggered, and bleeding badly from it. Sure he was still standing, but barely. And he again, was largely taking blows with his shield against Ultron and when not still being rag dolled more often not. Seeing as how Tony's casual blows were fucking him up badly, I really won't agree to this at all.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 8, 2016)

Fang said:


> Except he really was wounded, staggered, and bleeding badly from it. Sure he was still standing, but barely. And he again, was largely taking blows with his shield against Ultron and when not still being rag dolled more often not. Seeing as how Tony's casual blows were fucking him up badly, I really won't agree to this at all.


They weren't fucking him up badly. he walked out of there under his own power and didn't even seem to require medical attention. that's really the amount of book-keeping needed there.


being knocked away by a blow doesn't mean anything whatsoever, and that's all Ultron really did. by that logic no one in DBZ tanks each other's blows despite the numerous times someone's been knocked through a mountain and then casually shook the dust off after a few seconds.
Gotta actually do something to impair the person with the blow for it to not be tanked. all someone being sent flying indicates is that a transfer of kinetic energy occurred.


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## Fang (Jun 8, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> They weren't fucking him up badly. he walked out of there under his own power and didn't even seem to require medical attention. that's really the amount of book-keeping needed there.



>blows knock around Cap like a ragdoll
>isn't capable of harming Ultron at all
>even with his shield he only manages the barest minimum of cosmetic damage

Nah.



> being knocked away by a blow doesn't mean anything whatsoever, and that's all Ultron really did. by that logic no one in DBZ tanks each other's blows despite the numerous times someone's been knocked through a mountain and then casually shook the dust off after a few seconds.



>DBZ logic

Doesn't even fucking factor into this at all. Ultron was tossing him around, choking him out, required third party intervention from the Black Widow to survive and stay in the fight, he has no business really fighting Ultron at all. Your example doesn't fly.



> Gotta actually do something to impair the person with the blow for it to not be tanked. all someone being sent flying indicates is that a transfer of kinetic energy occurred.



Not really, no. When someone is being choked out by another, they are not "tanking" jackshit.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 8, 2016)

Fang said:


> >blows knock around Cap like a ragdoll
> >isn't capable of harming Ultron at all
> >even with his shield he only manages the barest minimum of cosmetic damage
> 
> Nah.


Cosmetic damage = damaging.
doesn't matter how cosmetic it is, his blows were doing enough damage to not be completely no-selled so partial scaling should apply.





> >DBZ logic
> 
> Doesn't even fucking factor into this at all. Ultron was tossing him around, choking him out, required third party intervention from the Black Widow to survive and stay in the fight, he has no business really fighting Ultron at all. Your example doesn't fly.


no, it does matter.
was he one-shotted and killed/knocked out?
no.
end of story more or less.
he DOESN'T need to win the fight for that to give him scaling evidence.




> Not really, no. When someone is being choked out by another, they are not "tanking" jackshit.



Choke outs are a bit durability ignoring as far as narrative is concerned, but not really what I'm talking about.
He still took several punches.
the fact that at the end he got choked out is irrelevant to that.
he gets some scaling.
you don't need to be performing in a superior fashion to an opponent to get that.

That said...
The fact his windpipe wasn't instantly being crushed still says something since Ultron doing that to a normal human would end with metal fingers sticking out the other side of his throat.


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## Fang (Jun 8, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> Cosmetic damage = damaging.



Its superficial and nothing more, stop with the semantics bullshit.



> doesn't matter how cosmetic it is, his blows were doing enough damage to not be completely no-selled so partial scaling should apply.



Wrong.



> no, it does matter.
> was he one-shotted and killed/knocked out?
> no.
> end of story more or less.
> he DOESN'T need to win the fight for that to give him scaling evidence.



No one is arguing winning a fight equates to tanking, the point was your falsely projecting bullshit that Captain America getting ragdolled and kicked around by Ultron and not being instantly smeared equates somehow to magically tanking blows in a context which we have never used with the term.

Not acceptable.



> [Choke outs are a bit durability ignoring as far as narrative is concerned, but not really what I'm talking about.



He was getting throat crushed, try again.



> He still took several punches.



He was thrown by those punches and sent flying each time he was smacked around.



> the fact that at the end he got choked out is irrelevant to that.
> he gets some scaling.
> you don't need to be performing in a superior fashion to an opponent to get that.



He does not get any scaling from Ultron.



> That said...
> The fact his windpipe wasn't instantly being crushed still says something since Ultron doing that to a normal human would end with metal fingers sticking out the other side of his throat.



No shit? But that still doesn't remotely scale him at all to Ultron or anywhere close. I also like how you keep ignoring he would've been dead within a few moments of the fight once his shield was removed if not for the Black Widow.


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## almanar (Jun 8, 2016)

Waiting for Thor 3 and waiting Chris Hemsworth take in action again . 
Captain America will win . Batman... never know Batman do the" one vs many "situation like captain does, because Batman is sneaky fighter/ Ninja..


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 8, 2016)

FYI Fang...

The only things that were actually throwing Cap around were the energy blasts.  Cap seemed to be tanking the punches fairly well.  Although, there weren't many that he got hit with.  The last one to the ribs in the train actively hurt him.


However, I gotta play devil's advocate and call out your "DBZ" comment.  The getting ragdolled effect occurs not just in that horrid anime but in plenty of other sourcework.  The heavy hitters/staple bricks in Marvel and DC are routinely involved in fights where they are sent flying and often times slightly injured by certain attacks.  If Superman gets hit with multiple star level punches, sent flying with each strike, and bleeds from his lip, (following your logic) he isn't tanking them?  I'm just trying to figure out what you are actively trying to say.  Because this viewpoint of yours is flying directly in the face of what I understood durability to be.  Unless I am reading what you are saying incorrectly.  In which case, I apologize.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Jun 9, 2016)

Gemmysaur said:


> It wasn't. The quinjet should at least be supersonic scaling from a regular jet. IM is supersonic+ iirc. Minor speed gap, major flight maneuverability.
> 
> Yes. But only for one bound at a time. IM has sustained flight. Hulkbuster is just a slow flyer by comparison by showings.



I'll openly agree that Hulkbuster getting IM speed scaling is a tough sell, given its limited showings.



Gemmysaur said:


> He didn't blitz. Tony at least has some semblance of combat training. Hulk is a pure brute. He got outplayed that one moment and got faceplanted as consequence.




He just straight up charged at Hulk and grabbed him. Pretty much a blitz.

That said, where do we place Hulk in terms of reactions? He can jump at IM-like speeds, given the Quinjet boarding in AoU compared to the Quinjet takeoff staying ahead of IM in CW, but I don't know if the jumping falls under the speed = reactions rule of thumb.

If it does, then we can say that Hulkbuster can fly at least roughly as fast as the rest, minus the maneuverability. If it doesn't, then the argument doesn't have any leg to stand on and the Hulkbuster is unquantifiably(?) slower.


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 9, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> He just straight up charged at Hulk and grabbed him. Pretty much a blitz.



Looked to me that Hulk wasn't expecting him to get up that fast. Besides, Hulk had to throw away the car just punched right through.

That one is debatable though, but I stand by my analysis of it.



> That said, where do we place Hulk in terms of reactions? He can jump at IM-like speeds, given the Quinjet boarding in AoU compared to the Quinjet takeoff staying ahead of IM in CW, but I don't know if the jumping falls under the speed = reactions rule of thumb.



Reflex-wise, I'd put him at IM's level. IM is subsonic for dodging a tank shell, who faced Thor well enough (evidences are shown that he was weakened though, but is debatable on how much), who was throwing it down (debatably holding back) and winning with Loki, who is subsonic for catching Hawkeye's arrow from a blind spot. Also, Hulk ragdolled Loki but context says the trickster was mid-speech and was surprised.

That'd put them at roughly Subsonic, a bit maybe higher (Thor, Hulk, IM, Loki, Ultron, Vision, other top tiers like Malekith and Kurse), Superhuman to Subsonic (Cap, Bucky, Panther, Spiderman whose precog only showed he can react to things coming from behind), roughly Superhuman (Hawkeye, Widow, Wanda, whoever else who kept up with them), and Supersonic (Pietro).

War Machine and Ant Man, I can't say but probably on par with Hawkeye at the very least.



> If it does, then we can say that Hulkbuster can fly at least roughly as fast as the rest, minus the maneuverability. If it doesn't, then the argument doesn't have any leg to stand on and the Hulkbuster is unquantifiably(?) slower.



Regarding Hulk's jumping scaling to his reflexes, I think no. He hasn't shown anything remotely close to Supersonic in reflexes. He hadn't even dodged or blocked anything of note. At least Thor, by not knowing what bullets were, was able to jumped away from bullet hail from a jet after he was fighting Hulk in melee but whether or not its noteworthy is not within my capability to check as I am no calcer and that scene would probably be under cinematic timing.


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## Fang (Jun 9, 2016)

Punchsplosion said:


> FYI Fang...
> 
> The only things that were actually throwing Cap around were the energy blasts.



No. So let's recap:

- he gets thrown around from Ultron punches
- he's not throwing around Ultron in turn
- damage as minor as it is was only done by his shield 
- would've died mid way in the fight once Ultron removes his shield from the equation

I see no equivalence there between the two.



> Cap seemed to be tanking the punches fairly well.  Although, there weren't many that he got hit with.  The last one to the ribs in the train actively hurt him.



>Cap punches or kicks Ultron; it does basically nothing
>Ultron hits Cap; he goes flying

Nah.


So  "tanked" being choked out and having his throat crushed? I don't think so.



> *snip*



Nah.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> No. So let's recap:
> 
> - he gets thrown around from Ultron punches
> - he's not throwing around Ultron in turn
> ...



Except you are completely wrong.  He doesn't go "flying" from a single punch from Ultron in that fight.  Obviously, you are remembering events incorrectly and not even bothering to watch the clips.  The punches in question don't even knock him to the ground.  He takes a punch to the face while he is already on one knee and it doesn't do anything to him.  Doesn't knock him to the ground.  The ENERGY BLASTS send him flying.  Every single one of the energy blasts do so.

Also don't agree with your throat crush assessment.  You can't ascertain something so definitive from the time frame that was given.  Ultron had him by the throat for 2 seconds, during which there was no indication from Cap that he was in danger of something like you are suggesting based on his reaction.  He looked uncomfortable sure.  However, he didn't claw at his throat.  There was no noise indicating that he was getting injured in the way that you seem to be remembering.

Also...."Not throwing Ultron around in turn."
Except for when, ya know, he actively tossed Ultron into a concrete pillar with one arm and smashed it.  Or when he tackled Ultron into that train.


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## Fang (Jun 9, 2016)

Punchsplosion said:


> Except you are completely wrong.



Nope.



> He doesn't go "flying" from a single punch from Ultron in that fight.  Obviously, you are remembering events incorrectly and not even bothering to watch the clips.  The punches in question don't even knock him to the ground.  He takes a punch to the face while he is already on one knee and it doesn't do anything to him.  Doesn't knock him to the ground.  The ENERGY BLASTS send him flying.  Every single one of the energy blasts do so.



He barely pushes Ultron a few feet with his punches and kicks. The most damage he does is kicking his shield into Ultron's chest which does barely any damage, who throws it away. Then First hit from Ultron's blast sends him flying and he's nearly thrown off the truck, transition back to the fight after Black Widow leaves on her motorcycle picking up Cap's discarded shield, we see Captain America futilely trying to grapple Ultron while on his back. Then Cap gets his arm twisted behind him and he's being strangled with one hand by Ultron while using both of his to futilely try and break Ultron's hold and is clearly failing.

The hold is only broken once Widow tosses the shield to him which he smacks Ultron away with it.

He was getting stomped.



> Also don't agree with your throat crush assessment.



Not my problem.



> You can't ascertain something so definitive from the time frame that was given.  Ultron had him by the throat for 2 seconds, during which there was no indication from Cap that he was in danger of something like you are suggesting based on his reaction.  He looked uncomfortable sure.  However, he didn't claw at his throat.  There was no noise indicating that he was getting injured in the way that you seem to be remembering.



You're wrong. Let's recap:

- once he loses the shield he tries to grapple with Ultron
- this fails badly
- Ultron twists him off his back and is casually gripping his neck
- Captain America is shown visibly trying to exert his strength for all its worth trying to pry off Ultron's grip
- It doesn't work
- Widow shows up and he uses one hand to knock away Ultron once he has his shield

Occham's Razor doesn't agree with your assessment.



> Also...."Not throwing Ultron around in turn."
> Except for when, ya know, he actively tossed Ultron into a concrete pillar with one arm and smashed it.  Or when he tackled Ultron into that train.



When they flew  into the train car, it was him grabbing Ultron again as he fly back at Cap. Also again: its funny how you leave out the fact the main reason Cap lasted so long in that fight was due to the aid of Clint firing on Ultron when he got in close and before that with Widow saving him by bringing his shield to him.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Occam's Razor doesn't dictate that he was getting his throat crushed.  Nor that he was about to pass out.  It's very easy to see that.  Also, I wasn't arguing against your assessment that he was getting punked in the fight Fang.  I was arguing with the very wrong point that you made about Cap getting knocked around by punches.  You were wrong.  It wasn't punches.  It was energy blasts.  End of story.

Basically, certain parts of your argument are valid and invalid by the evidence shown.

Valid Claims:
- Cap was getting punked in the fight (completely obvious).
- Without backup from HE and BW, Cap would have lost the fight.
- Cap's non-shield attacks weren't doing anything.

Invalid Claims:
- Cap was getting punched and sent ragdolling around (It was the energy blasts).
- Cap was getting choked out and his throat was being crushed (Not enough time nor reactions on Cap's end to justify that assertion, it's poor conjecture).
- Cap didn't throw Ultron around with any attacks (Except he did).

Sorry but Cap completely and utterly tanked everything that Ulton threw at him.  By the very definition of what tanked means.  Steve's durability held up and he took almost no damage from anything that Ultron hit him with (including the energy blasts as they didn't even slow him down).

The best you can hope to argue is that since this is Ultron's pre-vibranium body and it scales to the body that lost to the Iron Man armor earlier in the movie, the durability scaling that Cap may or may not receive doesn't mean anything.  The energy blasts and attacks from Ultron prior to becoming all vibranium weren't even impressive enough to scratch Tony's armor during the ship graveyard battle.


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## Fang (Jun 9, 2016)

Punchsplosion said:


> *snip*





Fang said:


> Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2016)

Cool.  So you have no response other than what you said before.  Gotcha.  Well, in that case, you are wrong.

Just like how you were wrong in the Wolverine vs Black Panther thread and instead of being an adult and reading my comprehensive response to your crap assertion, you responded with "I'm not reading all of that."

You are a petulant child sometimes Fang.  So, congrats on that and welcome to my ignore list.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Fang (Jun 9, 2016)

>Petulant child

I'll repeat myself as many times as I need to until its reinforced and goes through for your comprehension. You lost the debate, get over it and cry sour grapes else where. The awful attempt with the personal attack via ad hominem won't work either.

>ignore list

Announcing it means nothing to me either.


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## Quad (Jun 9, 2016)

Before we begin, here are two unedited videos of the final fight (not the best quality then again it might have been from pirated cds):




Here's almost the whole scene of the element making. Where is it said its vibranium:




Fang said:


> 1.) Tony dazes Captain America with a casual backhand right at the start of the fight


Casual? Now this is where interpretations vary but that did not look casual to me. And that is something someone in Cap's class could easily accomplish. Add to that you can see the propulsion system glowing bright, so its not pure strength either, but making use of the propulsion power of the repulsors.



Fang said:


> 2.) Bucky blocks a repulsor shot at close range and tries to grapple Tony's arm


No. Tony shoots Bucky's gun out of his hands, then Bucky blocks a swing from Tony with his metal arm.



Fang said:


> 3.) Tony overpowers him and flies across the room grappling him to the floor


Tony doesn't overpower him,  (if that's overpowering then Bucky does the same later to Tony with his normal arm) Then Tony grabs Bucky by the throat and *lifts him off the ground with his flight* before propelling him away and then slamming him to the ground. I see that more as flight speed than strength except the neck lift



Fang said:


> 4.) He then pins him with his foot and is about to shoot him in the face as Bucky is unable to do ANYTHING until Captain America recovers and throws his shield to knock off Tony's aim from splattering Bucky's head


Exactly. Tony had his weight and leverage helping him. He pinned Bucky's arm *at the shoulder with his foot* and his weight. And sorry, I seriously doubt Tony was going to splatter Bucky with those weaksauce repulsors. Maybe KO him at best. Look how unscathed the walls where when the repulsors hit them.



Fang said:


> 5.) Tony responds by punching Captain America whose blocking with his shield and is still sent several meters backwards


He did a repulsor propelled shoulder tackle. You think that is something? BP and Batroc achieved similar results with their kicks. And several metres? He didn't go that far back. At the max 2 metres. That is few



Fang said:


> 6.) The fight going back to Bucky vs Tony has Tony putting him against the wall


With the damage the other suits have done with the same maneuver, I think Bucky should have been way more hurt by that. Like plowing the Iron Manger through the floor, a wall, and a container. Or flying Killian through two metal railings. Or Koing a mook with just one jet boot propulsion. Hurting Loki by slamming into him.



Fang said:


> 7.) Bucky is using the full strength of his artificial arm to damage the lens of the replusor emitter in his hand and then redirects the missile shot


Bucky grabbed Tony by the outside of the palm and pulled him far away. With Tony having I'm gonna shit in my pants face, and he is unable to break free before Bucky cracks it. If Bucky is using his full strength, and then Tony is too, and yet despite having more leverage he fails to pry himself free.
On a slightly unrelated note, you can also see he is bleeding when from the forehead unlike when he was not hurt when watching the video, so Tony with few hits has already started to take damage in his suit. I don't need more proof this one is inferior to the previous models. It is supposed to be stronger, but it isn't
And Tony being an idiot and not using the unibeam to kill Bucky then.



Fang said:


> 8.) Said explosion from Tony's mini-missile causes large scale damage in the facility room and Tony's Mark 46 suit is damaged from debris


With the flight speed of the previous models, he should have been able to dodge the debris like he did in AOU. Apparently Bucky can jump faster than Tony can fly



Fang said:


> 9.) The bullshit again about "casually" stopping Tony with one arm is exaggeration; he was clearly shown visibly straining and resorted to bashing on Tony's leg with his shield repeatedly


If he was straining, it was not much. Lifting that metal beam off Bucky in TWS, stopping the helicopter in Civil War, grappling with the Chitauri foot soldier trying to stab him in Avengers, pulling that car in Age of Ultron, trying to catch up to Valkyrie in First Avenger - now that was straining. And he bashed it just twice. A missile explosion knocked out the MKIII's jet boots a lot less time



Fang said:


> 10.) He catches up to Bucky and visibly winds him with a single kick and is about to finish him off again before Captain America gets between the two and deflects a repulsor shot that would've killed Bucky; which hits Tony and knocks him down a level; again taking more damage


Yes, Iron Man can hurt Bucky with his punches and kicks. No surprise there. And as I said, the repulsors are weaksauce, so I was really bothered by Tony's reacting like that. Now compare that to when Killian made the Shotgun armor shoot itself with its repulsors which could blow through metal, it was barely knocked back



Fang said:


> 11.) Captain America gets a whipcord and drags Tony down to the floor of the facility while Tony careens into the walls several times


Cap was never shown to be pulling. Tony somehow fell down under Cap's weight. And he hit a projection once, then fell onto another one and stayed there, while Cap stopped on another below him.



Fang said:


> Cap was never shown pulling. The cable just snagged Tony
> 12.) Once he blows the hatch closed[/n] and Tony catches up with Bucky, Bucky comes at him with a pipe; which leads to Tony getting hit once with no damage shown or implied and starting to choke Bucky out with it


Aah yes, the targeting system which already got scrambled. Also - Nitpicking, but Tony threw off the pipe and got him in the hold with his skill
And Tony being an idiot and not shooting Bucky but the supports.



Fang said:


> 13.) While Tony is flying down the shaft while grappling Bucky and choking him out with his pipe, PIS has Tony levitate down to where Captain America is waiting to intervene, sending all three crashing back to the floor


Thank you. That was so stupid I legitimately thought for a moment Tony was high or something.



Fang said:


> 14.) Both Bucky and Captain America are more dazed and stunned then Tony who recovers the first and fastest


No, Bucky is more dazed. Tony and Cap get up at the same time, and Tony has trouble getting up as well



Fang said:


> 15.) When Tony and Rogers/Captain America engage in a fist fight when Captain America doesn't have a shield, it clearly shows Cap is losing the fist fight; right before Bucky intervenes Captain America is on his back and being punched and pummeled by Tony


Nope. Tony did not beat Cap in a pure fistfight. Tony and Cap throw equal punches with neither getting the advantage. The Cap ignores a gut punch, grabs Tony's arm, twists it and gets him in a sleeper hold. Tony tries to pry him off with his hand but fails to and is forced to use his repulsors to propel himself backwards to break free. Then when Cap grabs Tony's arm for a followup Tony uses that to his advantage to pin Cap's arm under Tony's body. Cap still dodges the first punch and Tony only gets in two punches later.
Again, Tony's skill helped him, not his stats



Fang said:


> 16.) The flow of the fight is altered only after Bucky adds into the fight and brings Captain America's shield; and this starts with him hitting Tony from behind in the back with said vibranium shield
> 17.) Tony tries to shoot Bucky with his replusor which Bucky blocks with the shield then tosses it back to Captain America; all the subsequent damage to Tony is done via the shield itself


No. Bucky kicks Tony then elbows him with the normal arm, both which make Tony cry out.



Fang said:


> 18.) Once Tony gets a shot in after being 2 on 1ed by Bucky and Cap on the Cap with his replusor, Bucky catches his focused replusor blast and forces his aim up


No. After they have him on the ground, he keeps trying to repuslor them in the face which they keep blocking till their luck runs outs and Tony gets in a lucky hit with a repulsor blast which takes out Cap.(which itself bothered me when Tony had already instructed Spider Man to go for Cap's legs and he himself while in the same position has gone for his opponent's legs) The scene then shifts to Cap flying away and then Tony and Bucky going h2h

Tony is not slowing him down and Bucky twists away the arm with his normal arm



Fang said:


> 19.) The only damage Bucky is doing is trying to crush the most fragile part of Tony's armor, his faceplate, with his artificial arm before Tony blows it off and then stunning him with another shot that leaves him completely out of the fight


Faceplate? He is crushing the area around the arc reactor. And guess what, you can see Tony trying to pry his normal arm off and utterly failing despite his leverage
And Tony again being an idiot and not using both arms to pry off the metal arm, or firing his repulsors instead of grappling with Bucky's normal arm and not blowing Bucky's head off with the lasers or the missile after he's taken off his metal arm. With the explosion range shown just before Cap would be fine from either.



Fang said:


> 20.) Captain America engages Iron Man 1 on 1; which is only due to his shield keeping him in the fight from Tony's replusor blasts


Yes, Again, Tony only firing on the shield when he should be going for the legs.



Fang said:


> 21.) Then Captain America is close enough to constantly bash and hit Tony while Tony isn't able to keep up since its not his skill set to fight in close combat in the first place


Are you saying what Cap was doing was some uber skill move? He was simply throwing left and right hooks. Tony only had to raise his hands to block them. Standard boxing move. Apparently Tony doesn't even have the brains to do that lol.



Fang said:


> 22.) Only damage is being done via bashing from Cap with his shield against Tony's armor


Cap's punches are rocking him pretty fine



Fang said:


> 23.) Once Friday analyzes his fighting pattern, he halts the shield with a hand which Captain America can't match with his strength then blasts the shield away


What? He just blocked the hit. There is no Cap can't match strength coming into this. Cap was stunned that he was able to do so and Tony blasted him before he could recover mentally.



Fang said:


> 24.) He gets several punches in then blasts Captain America away


No he blasts him first, then lands several propulsion powered punches.


Sorry, but all this make you look like you are making excuses for Iron Man

Now some pics and gifs to support my argument

See here. The continuous repulsor beam did jack shit to those walls


The single shots did no damage either. See how much damage was done to the floor when Cap made him miss



Or how much the walls were damaged when he missed due to Bucky running




See this is how it happened when he had Bucky against the wall. And he is bleeding. And Tony broke the grip after pulling his arm out of Bucky's reach.




Tony was not bleeding before.



And here, after Cap breaks the restraints, you can see how effective was Tony's punches. Worthless.



So one shield throw plus couple of metal arm punches, Tony is already starting to get bloodied under the suit. A real far cry from the previous suits

You know what? I know that Mark 46 was supposed to be more powerful than the previous versions and you want it to be. However, by feats, it isn't

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


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## Quad (Jun 9, 2016)

Yeah, and as Fang said, Tony was using the old arc reactor which he said could only sustain his cave suit for few minutes, and just before catching the car he fired his unibeam which takes a lot of power


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## The Runner (Jun 9, 2016)

> 13.) While Tony is flying down the shaft while grappling Bucky and choking him out with his pipe, PIS has Tony levitate down to where Captain America is waiting to intervene, sending all three crashing back to the floor


The flight repulsers were stated to be weakened due to Cap bashing the leg with his sheild. Tony was even shown struggling to fly before he shot up to get Bucky.

Bucky's added weight dragged Tony down.

Fuck I involved myself into this bullshit fest, didn't I?

Fuck it. I'm not here to play anyhow


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## Fang (Jun 9, 2016)

Quad said:


> *snip*



That's a whole lot of bullshit rolled into one post.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 9, 2016)

Quad said:


> And that is something someone in Cap's class could easily accomplish.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jun 10, 2016)

>this cap downplay


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## Quad (Jun 10, 2016)

Huh? What is this supposed to mean? You think someone in Cap's strength class can't backhand him when he's not expecting it and stun him?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Quad (Jun 10, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> The flight repulsors were stated to be weakened due to Cap bashing the leg with his shield. Tony was even shown struggling to fly before he shot up to get Bucky.
> Bucky's added weight dragged Tony down.
> Fuck I involved myself into this bullshit fest, didn't I?
> Fuck it. I'm not here to play anyhow


Dude did you even watch the fight? Did it look to like they were fighting in mid-air? Tony and Bucky were fighting on a ledge, from which Tony used his back thrusters to jump off. The thrusters never otherwise came into the play because he wasn't even flying when he got Bucky in the chokehold.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 10, 2016)

Did we watch the same movie?
Cap barely won with help from another in his class and an out of his mind tony in a tight as shit space.


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## Quad (Jun 10, 2016)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Did we watch the same movie?
> Cap barely won with help from another in his class and an out of his mind tony in a tight as shit space.


When was this about who won and who didn't? The disagreement was about should X have taken this much damage, or should X be able to tank this much damage, or can x hit this hard, or can X do as well or last this long, or did it play out like it should.
The argument was about the finer points, not the outcome.

And what are you talking about anyway? You quotes a part of my post saying the backhand wasn't that impressive and then posted a durability and weaponry feat for Iron Man which is completely unrelated to that (since that is striking power) and now you are going on about who won and who didn't. Make yourself clear man

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 10, 2016)

Quad said:


> When was this about who won and who didn't? The disagreement was about should X have taken this much damage, or should X be able to tank this much damage, or can x hit this hard, or can X do as well or last this long, or did it play out like it should.
> The argument was about the finer points, not the outcome.
> 
> And what are you talking about anyway? You quotes a part of my post saying the backhand wasn't that impressive and then posted a durability and weaponry feat for Iron Man which is completely unrelated to that (since that is striking power) and now you are going on about who won and who didn't. Make yourself clear man


TL;DR make yourself clearer. Also a backhand not being striking power


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## Quad (Jun 10, 2016)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> TL;DR make yourself clearer. Also a backhand not being striking power



Clearly you can't read and understand properly
  :S What part of ""that being striking power"" did you not understand? I said the backhand was striking power an your video showed durability and weaponry which are completely unrelated.



As for making myself clear, I was saying that the arguments were over how specific points of the fight should have gone, and its varying interpretations, and not the final outcome



ATastyMuffin said:


> Look at the Iron Man vs. War Machine fight in Iron Man 2  and notice how terribly sluggish their physical attacks are



They don't look so sluggish here. You shouldn't also forget that Tony was drunk off his ass while Rhodey was wearing the suit for first time, and neither were trying their hardest to hurt each other.


I dunno why you are so intent on ignoring context to support your interpretation.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## AngryHeretic (Jun 10, 2016)

Not gonna sit through 4 pages of what appears to have veered into totally irrelevant shit.

Batman: "Tell me. Do you blee-"
*Cap takes his head off with a shield toss
*
That's what happens.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Quad (Jun 12, 2016)

AngryHeretic said:


> Not gonna sit through 4 pages of what appears to have veered into totally irrelevant shit.
> 
> Batman: "Tell me. Do you blee-"
> *Cap takes his head off with a shield toss
> ...



Isn't that obvious? This thread went to other places because as it is now, the chances of DCCU Batman beating MCU Cap is in the negatives. So everybody decided to discuss about the final fight of Civil War which was a more intriguing discussion. See ya all.


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## Kaaant (Jun 12, 2016)

Kaaant said:


> Batman was reacting to Doomsday.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Jun 12, 2016)

Bannai said:


> Batman is physically stronger



No.

Just... no.


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 12, 2016)

Bannai said:


> Batman holding up a steel beam weighing several tons



That part of the movie?


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## Kenpachi TZ (Jun 12, 2016)

Bannai said:


> Batman holding up a steel beam weighing several tons



DCCU = DC Cinematic Universe.

Where is this from?


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2016)

Bannai said:


> Batman is physically stronger plus better equipment, stealth



lmao you're dumb


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## Quad (Jun 15, 2016)

What you guys don't get is that the fight justifies posts like these:

omicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/iron-man-mcu-vs-captain-america-mcu-1632484/?page=7#a-js-message-16776740
Oh, and Iron Man winding Bucky or Cap with one of his blows just shows that he csln hit harder than ordinary humans which is basically redundant

I think this post summaries pretty much everything I have to say about that fight



 omicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/iron-man-mcu-vs-captain-america-mcu-1632484/?page=8#js-message-16794665


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## Quad (Jun 15, 2016)

What you guys don't get is that the fight justifies posts like these:

omicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/iron-man-mcu-vs-captain-america-mcu-1632484/?page=7#a-js-message-16776740
Oh, and Iron Man winding Bucky or Cap with one of his blows just shows that he csln hit harder than ordinary humans which is basically redundant

I think this post summaries pretty much everything I have to say about that fight



 omicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/iron-man-mcu-vs-captain-america-mcu-1632484/?page=8#js-message-16794665


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## Quad (Jun 15, 2016)

What you guys don't get is that the fight justifies posts like these:

omicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/iron-man-mcu-vs-captain-america-mcu-1632484/?page=7#a-js-message-16776740
Oh, and Iron Man winding Bucky or Cap with one of his blows just shows that he csln hit harder than ordinary humans which is basically redundant

I think this post summaries pretty much everything I have to say about that fight



 omicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/iron-man-mcu-vs-captain-america-mcu-1632484/?page=8#js-message-16794665


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## Fang (Jun 15, 2016)

No one gives a shit about comicvine or what gamespot thinks nerd


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 15, 2016)

This Capt is obviously mirrored to Ultimate Cap who is super human. I buy into Capt manhandling Iron  Man in hand to hand


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## Linkmyboy72 (Jun 15, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Cap would rock DCU batman, Cap put Spiderman on his ass and while he was pinned down with webbing. This Cap is easily a class 10 or 15


Outlier IMO, Spidey is always jobbing.


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## Huey Freeman (Jun 15, 2016)

Linkmyboy72 said:


> Outlier IMO, Spidey is always jobbing.


this is his first time in the MCU how is he always jobbing ?


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## BreakFlame (Jun 15, 2016)

Linkmyboy72 said:


> Outlier IMO, Spidey is always jobbing.



He deserves it after what he did to Firelord.


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