# Juudara and Juubito vs Isshiki



## Steven (Dec 26, 2022)

Rinne-Sharingan Madara 

Win by any means


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## Fused (Dec 26, 2022)

Limbo GG as per usual as Isshiki doesn't have Six Paths Sage Mode nor Rinnegan, so he gets blitzed by the Phantom Limbo Madara that he cannot sense nor perceive.

Any offensive move gets negated by Preta Path, Shinra Tensei, Limbo Teleportation feint, Truth Seeker Shielding Orb, and Immortality.

Juubito can be used as meat shield in the initial segment of the fight.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Disagree 2


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## Goku (Dec 26, 2022)

Isshiki stomps. He's leagues above Juudara and Juubito.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Disagree 2


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## Onyx Emperor (Dec 26, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 1


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## Fused (Dec 26, 2022)

That's Isshiki after Madara feints him with Limbo for the 234242th time.


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## YonkoDrippy (Dec 26, 2022)

The JJ Duo win.

Juubito is kind of fodder here, but he can at least cause a few distractions that will allow Madara to win. Isshiki has nothing that will allow him to see or sense Limbo. And he doesn’t have a counter to infinite Tsukuyomi either. The Limbo can pin him down and Madara will soul rip him

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Ludi (Dec 26, 2022)

Juubito is rather useless here and probably gets about immediately taken out, for example by BFR. Isshiki beats Madara 1v1

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## BLueSky (Dec 26, 2022)

Juubito is fodder here, Ishiki oneshot him and immobilize him with black rod. Ishiki speed blitz, spam AP then immobilize Madara with multiple black rod then absorb his chakra.

Madara doesn't has knowledge on ishiki, so MT isn't his main option, he will try to deal with him, but he can't react to Ishiki. Even if Madara fly close to the moon, Ishiki still can speed blitz  him before he get close to the moon and spam AP punching him to the ground.

Ishiki had all knowledge of what happened in Narutoverse, thanks to Amado. He also know what is Amaterasu.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Disagree 2


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## dabi (Dec 26, 2022)

Isshiki Negs;

also lol at Juubito being fodder but Juudara not, the two are way closer to each other than either of them is to Isshiki

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 2 | Disagree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Dec 26, 2022)

the only thing i agree with boruto camp in this thread is lol at Obito being here.
It's either Madara wins or they lose, lol, Obito has absolutely no impact in this duo.
It's like when Hinata tried helping Naruto and got pummeled in 2 seconds by Tendo.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perfect Susano (Dec 26, 2022)

Juubito would be far more relevant vs Isshiki than Naruto or Sasuke. Naruto & Sasuke were fodder for Isshiki though so that isn't necessarily a high bar to clear. If Isshiki is in a defective vessel then this is a clear win for the duo since they just outlast him. If not, the battle gets much harder for the duo, but they can still win. This duo is exponentially stronger than Naruto & Sasuke.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Lewd 1


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## dergeist (Dec 26, 2022)

Either fodderstomps Isshit as per canon feats, showings and portrayal.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Lewd 2


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## Wolfgang (Dec 26, 2022)

Isshiki can't do anything to Limbo unless Kishimoto makes something up.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Dec 26, 2022)

Wolfgang said:


> Isshiki can't do anything to Limbo unless Kishimoto makes something up.


Sadly (for the isshiki camp in nbd) Kishimoto won't have to because we're not seeing Madara again

Reactions: Like 2


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 26, 2022)

Although this team is stronger than Naruto & Sasuke they are not enough to defeat Isshiki.

Reactions: Funny 4 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2022)

Soldierofficial said:


> Although this team is stronger than Naruto & Sasuke they are not enough to defeat Isshiki.


They aren’t stronger than Naruto or Sasuke

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 26, 2022)

Eliyua23 said:


> They aren’t stronger than Naruto or Sasuke



Proof?


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2022)

Soldierofficial said:


> Proof?


They surpassed them in the war arc , They beat Juubito with BSM/PS they were beating 1 Rinnegan Madara with their Rikudo amps

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## BLueSky (Dec 26, 2022)

Wolfgang said:


> Isshiki can't do anything to Limbo unless Kishimoto makes something up.


Lol, that Limbo is equal to Madara. Once the battle start, Isshiki shot fast, hit Madara repeatedly, Madara bounced. To visualize Ishiki vs Madara, just imagine that a super-fast train hits us within 1 meter, and the train hits us continuously. 1 punch is enough to make us bounce far away, before we land, ishiki is in front of us again without us knowing his flying so fast and hitting again and so on. ishiki will just spam AP and madara doesn't have a chance to fight back and doesn't even know ishiki's dashing movement. At the end, Ishiki plunged many black rods into him and made him unable to move then sucked all of his chakra.

Reactions: Kage 1 | Disagree 1


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## Wolfgang (Dec 26, 2022)

BLueSky said:


> Lol, that Limbo is equal to Madara. Once the battle start, Isshiki shot fast, hit Madara repeatedly, Madara bounced. To visualize Ishiki vs Madara, just imagine that a super-fast train hits us within 1 meter, and the train hits us continuously. 1 punch is enough to make us bounce far away, before we land, ishiki is in front of us again without us knowing his flying so fast and hitting again and so on. ishiki will just spam AP and madara doesn't have a chance to fight back and doesn't even know ishiki's dashing movement. At the end, Ishiki plunged many black rods into him and made him unable to move then sucked all of his chakra.



Oof


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## Sparks (Dec 26, 2022)

Obito and Madara have far inferior reactions to Naruto and Sasuke.

Isshiki stakes out their eyes with rods which require Baryon level speed to fully preempt. And the eyes can't be regenerated. Isshiki then tosses them into the sealing pot.

Low diff for Isshiki.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Disagree 1


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 26, 2022)

Eliyua23 said:


> They surpassed them in the war arc



Not according to feats and portrayal.

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Monarch (Dec 26, 2022)

Isshiki breaks them in half.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Sparks (Dec 26, 2022)

@Altiora Night

Reactions: Informative 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## MYGod000 (Dec 26, 2022)

Goku said:


> Isshiki stomps. He's leagues above Juudara and Juubito.



How so?

If i recall 8th Gate Gai Was Stomping JJ Madara as well and he still lose in the end because he got out lasted.  What makes you think a dying Isshiki isn't going to get out lasted in this fight?


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## Steven (Dec 26, 2022)

Soldierofficial said:


> Not according to feats and portrayal.


How did you get a red username?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Goku (Dec 26, 2022)

Steven said:


> How did you get a red username?


We voted on this  and @Rinoa gave the voters red colored name with green sparkles for one week.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## AfroUchiha (Dec 26, 2022)

Isshiki pretty easily.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Disagree 1


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## MYGod000 (Dec 26, 2022)

LMFAO.

People are just being bias now. Isshiki wasn't able to defeated Naruto and sasuke "easily" they don't have anywhere near the durability as JJ Madara nor do they have Immortality.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## WinNo1929 (Dec 27, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> Isshiki wasn't able to defeated Naruto and sasuke "easily"


  


I recall them not actually being capable of doing a single bit of damage to Isshiki - whilst they were capable of slugging it out with Limbo clones equally and blitzing Madara's weaker versions

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## WinNo1929 (Dec 27, 2022)

Isshiki has no win con against Limbo, because Limbo is Limbo and he can't see the Limbo so he gets one shot by Limbo which always one shots people despite the fact it did zero damage to the teens, which was a result of PIS to nerf the Limbo

Madara is the strongest character in the verse. Kaguya was never stronger than him, Sasuke is a moron who can't even recognise his own daughter. Kaguya curbstomped Isshiki per canon, so Madara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kaguya >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Isshiki

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Lewd 1


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## MYGod000 (Dec 27, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> I recall them not actually being capable of doing a single bit of damage to Isshiki - whilst they were capable of slugging it out with Limbo clones equally and blitzing Madara's weaker versions



That doesn't mean anything it just means they can contend with Isshiki for a bit.

That doesn't at all tell their strength or how they compared to previous villains.  Naruto and Sasuke before Six path power up could also defeat JJ Obito...but that in no way shape or form implied Pre-Six path Naruto and Sasuke>Hashirama.

in Fact, it strongly implied Hashirama>Pre-Six path Naruto and Sasuke.


Here is my Presupposition,  Isshiki is weakened and dying and all they really need to do is hold him off until he dies off which is well within the power of someone who is immortal and is compared to Kaguya by Hagoromo. Adult Naruto doesn't have more chakra than Juubi Jin their is no evidence suggesting he does.  Madara wins Isshiki isn't going to win against someone who can out last his 3 days Life, has High speed regeneration surpassing that of Naruto.

JJ Madara is already way more powerful than Than Adult Naruto and Has far more chakra then him as well as far better regeneration.  

It doesn't matter if you think Limbo is weak it isn't You admitted here that Isshiki can't See Limbo so he would be off guard by Limbo. Correct?  why wouldn't Limbo be capable of doing significant Damage to Isshiki if he would be off guard by it?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## BLueSky (Dec 27, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> That doesn't mean anything it just means they can contend with Isshiki for a bit.
> 
> That doesn't at all tell their strength or how they compared to previous villains.  Naruto and Sasuke before Six path power up could also defeat JJ Obito...but that in no way shape or form implied Pre-Six path Naruto and Sasuke>Hashirama.
> 
> ...


JJ Madara isn't more powerfull than Adult Naruto. Base Adult Naruto AP already moon level via destroying Hamura tenseigan power that forced driving the moon into the earth. SPSM 100% kurama Adult Naruto would be > JJ Madara.

Also Ishiki more > Adult Naruto. So Ishiki >>> JJ Madara.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 4 | Dislike 1


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## Raiken (Dec 27, 2022)

Prime Juudara can arguably win alone High Diff.

Adding Juubito secures the win for Madara.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Capa13 (Dec 27, 2022)

Madara have invisible clone that Isshiki no see. Madara win because invisible clone very big stronk and scary clone. Very big strong eye ability clone too much for near god Isshiki. Madara dodge BYM level speed black rods with ease. Isshiki big fodder because he is in Burp. Madara win.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 8 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## WinNo1929 (Dec 27, 2022)

Capa13 said:


> Madara have invisible clone that Isshiki no see. Madara win because invisible clone very big stronk and scary clone. Very big strong eye ability clone too much for near god Isshiki. Madara dodge BYM level speed black rods with ease. Isshiki big fodder because he is in Burp. Madara win.


Great points, lets see how the Isshiki copers deal with this

Madara is the GHOST OF THE UCHIHA, wtf is Isshitty? An alien? Madara has TEN TAILS while Isshitty has ZERO tails   

Madara is the "strongest shinobi", it doesnt matter if Naruto and Sasuke were relative to him and then their stronger versions as adults who can solo threats >>> Kaguya got curbstomped by Isshiki, Madara is STRONG and has LIMBO

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## WinNo1929 (Dec 27, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> That doesn't mean anything it just means they can contend with Isshiki for a bit.


They contended with Madara better than they did Isshitty buddy, hence why Isshiki stomped them and they couldnt do any damage to him, whilst Narutos clones could box with Madara's = Limbo clones


MYGod000 said:


> That doesn't at all tell their strength or how they compared to previous villains.  Naruto and Sasuke before Six path power up could also defeat JJ Obito...but that in no way shape or form implied Pre-Six path Naruto and Sasuke>Hashirama.
> 
> in Fact, it strongly implied Hashirama>Pre-Six path Naruto and Sasuke.


Strawman, and Obito lost because his resolve broke. It wasn't a matter of strength as much as him being mentally fucked 


MYGod000 said:


> Here is my Presupposition,  Isshiki is weakened and dying and all they really need to do is hold him off until he dies off which is well within the power of someone who is immortal and is compared to Kaguya by Hagoromo. Adult Naruto doesn't have more chakra than Juubi Jin their is no evidence suggesting he does.  Madara wins Isshiki isn't going to win against someone who can out last his 3 days Life, has High speed regeneration surpassing that of Naruto.


Naruto was ~ to Madara in physical stats. Naruto got curbstomped by Isshiki, and Sasuke himself said they had no hope of defeating him

Madara is immortal in the sense he has eternal youth, not that he can't die in battle. This is supported by both Kaguya dying (someone stronger than Madara) and the novels saying eternal life didnt truly exist.

So therefore, Isshiki is >> Naruto who is ~ to Madara in physical strength, therefore Madara cannot damage Isshiki properly.


MYGod000 said:


> JJ Madara is already way more powerful than Than Adult Naruto and Has far more chakra then him as well as far better regeneration.


JJ Madara was stalemating his teenage version alone, Isshiki stomped Sasuke and Naruto with minimal effort


MYGod000 said:


> It doesn't matter if you think Limbo is weak it isn't You admitted here that Isshiki can't See Limbo so he would be off guard by Limbo. Correct?  why wouldn't Limbo be capable of doing significant Damage to Isshiki if he would be off guard by it?


Limbo becomes visible when it gets punctured by thousands of rods.


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## dergeist (Dec 27, 2022)

BLueSky said:


> Lol, that Limbo is equal to Madara. Once the battle start, Isshiki shot fast, hit Madara repeatedly, Madara bounced. To visualize Ishiki vs Madara, just imagine that a super-fast train hits us within 1 meter, and the train hits us continuously. 1 punch is enough to make us bounce far away, before we land, ishiki is in front of us again without us knowing his flying so fast and hitting again and so on. ishiki will just spam AP and madara doesn't have a chance to fight back and doesn't even know ishiki's dashing movement. At the end, Ishiki plunged many black rods into him and made him unable to move then sucked all of his chakra.



I take it you haven't read the manga kid, since all I'm reading is wank gobble gobble, wank gobble gobble.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Capa13 (Dec 27, 2022)

Capa13 said:


> Madara have invisible clone that Isshiki no see. Madara win because invisible clone very big stronk and scary clone. Very big strong eye ability clone too much for near god Isshiki. Madara dodge BYM level speed black rods with ease. Isshiki big fodder because he is in Burp. Madara win.


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## AnbuHokage63 (Dec 27, 2022)

Limbo GG,
ergo Madara solos


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## MYGod000 (Dec 27, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> They contended with Madara better than they did Isshitty buddy, hence why Isshiki stomped them and they couldnt do any damage to him, whilst Narutos clones could box with Madara's = Limbo clones



That was a Limbo that strictly Was using Taijutsu and Naruto Shadow Clones didn't do any damage to any Limbo clones.

Naruto during that Time Had Yang Seal=Half the power of the moon.  what Naruto did Back then doesn't Correlate to adult Naruto because he no longer has Yang  Seal=Half the power of the moon.


WinNo1929 said:


> Strawman, and Obito lost because his resolve broke. It wasn't a matter of strength as much as him being mentally fucked



And he wanted to lost and it still took Naruto+Sasuke and 15k+ ninja+shadow clone of Hashirama all with Kyuubi cloaks just to win a tug of war with JJ Obito.


WinNo1929 said:


> Naruto was ~ to Madara in physical stats. Naruto got curbstomped by Isshiki, and Sasuke himself said they had no hope of defeating him


where is this stated Naruto Physical stats are greater than Madara?  The only thing that was Stated was his sensing abilities which has 0 to do with physical stats.


WinNo1929 said:


> Madara is immortal in the sense he has eternal youth, not that he can't die in battle. This is supported by both Kaguya dying (someone stronger than Madara) and the novels saying eternal life didnt truly exist.



i'm sorry but your wrong.



Madara stats he is completely immortal...my premise here is as long as Madara has Divine Tree=Kaguya absorbed inside he is completely immortal.  That what canon showed, Madara was completely unkillable until he had The divine Tree+Ten tails removed from his body at the end of the war.


WinNo1929 said:


> So therefore, Isshiki is >> Naruto who is ~ to Madara in physical strength, therefore Madara cannot damage Isshiki properly.



You keep saying Naruto physical stats~Madara but so far you've not giving any Evidences for that or any statements.

Madara during the 4th War is stated To be the strongest Shinobi of all and you have no statements that says he isn't...only your opinion.


WinNo1929 said:


> JJ Madara was stalemating his teenage version alone, Isshiki stomped Sasuke and Naruto with minimal effort



No Naruto was somewhat Stalemating Limbo clones which are stated to have equal skill with the users.

Naruto lose against the Limbo clone and was unable to defeat them so he is clearly below them.


WinNo1929 said:


> Limbo becomes visible when it gets punctured by thousands of rods.


When Has Isshiki uses Thousands of rods?  If those Rods have no Six path Senjutsu chakra in them they will just go through them like Sasuke Sword did.




Naruto was able to touch the Limbo using his Truth Seeking Rods.


Six path sage chakra can affect Limbo but burden of proof is on you to prove Isshiki Rods have Six path Sage chakra since you're the on arguing they will affect Limbo.


BLueSky said:


> JJ Madara isn't more powerfull than Adult Naruto. Base Adult Naruto AP already moon level via destroying Hamura tenseigan power that forced driving the moon into the earth. SPSM 100% kurama Adult Naruto would be > JJ Madara.



That was Naruto from the Last and no he didn't.



Naruto Stated neither him nor Hinata alone could destroy the Tenseigan.

you're Bragging about Naruto+Hinata combined AP creating a new jutsu destroying the Tenseigan that a combined feat buddy not a singular feat.


BLueSky said:


> Also Ishiki more > Adult Naruto. So Ishiki >>> JJ Madara.



sure Isshiki physical is stronger than Madara because i can't argue physical Feats for JJ Madara on the level of Isshiki...but You're wrong on all Account. you're speaking on opinion Adult Naruto has never been stated to be above Juubi Jins that type of information would have been immediately stated if he was.  In Fact, the opposite is imposed as It stated Naruto only had part of the power of Juubi Jin.


Think of this Fight as Kratos Vs Baldur...Kratos is super strong but ultimately he will lose to Baldur unless he figures out a way to deal with that curse of his.  Isshiki has no way to deal with Madara's immortality, no real way to deal with Limbo here.

All Madara has to do is outlast Isshiki who is dying in 3 days if you think Madara doesn't have the stamina to do that when Before becoming a juubi Jin he could fight for 24 hours...the Juubi+ Divine Tree+Rinne-Sahringan astronomically increased  his Stamina  Isshiki is fighting a losing battle.  Please show me where it stated Adult Naruto is above Juubi Jin in power, stamina, chakra show me.

Till then i see no evidence to suggest he is.


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## BLueSky (Dec 27, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> That was a Limbo that strictly Was using Taijutsu and Naruto Shadow Clones didn't do any damage to any Limbo clones.
> 
> Naruto during that Time Had Yang Seal=Half the power of the moon.  what Naruto did Back then doesn't Correlate to adult Naruto because he no longer has Yang  Seal=Half the power of the moon.
> 
> ...


*As Naruto began to form his [Rasengan], Hinata rushed to stop him.

“No! There’s a curse on this Tenseigan, so if shinobi outside of Hamura’s bloodline touch it, they’ll have their chakra extracted.”*

Upon realizing Hinata was powerless against Hamura's Tenseigan, Naruto came up with the plan to combine Hinata's ability to touch the Tenseigan with his overwhelming power in order to completely destroy the eye. So, they combined their Chakra, powered up an attack, and crashed into the Tenseigan, with their combined might destroying the eye completely.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MYGod000 (Dec 27, 2022)

BLueSky said:


> *As Naruto began to form his [Rasengan], Hinata rushed to stop him.
> 
> “No! There’s a curse on this Tenseigan, so if shinobi outside of Hamura’s bloodline touch it, they’ll have their chakra extracted.”*
> 
> Upon realizing Hinata was powerless against Hamura's Tenseigan, Naruto came up with the plan to combine Hinata's ability to touch the Tenseigan with his overwhelming power in order to completely destroy the eye. So, they combined their Chakra, powered up an attack, and crashed into the Tenseigan, with their combined might destroying the eye completely.


This goes back to my previous statement about it being a combined feat. Naruto never said he could destroy the Tenseigan by himself. 


*Hinata could touch the Tenseigan, but she didn't have enough chakra.  On Hand Naruto couldn't Touch the Tenseigan, but had massive amounts of chakra. *


At No point does it implied Naruto by himself can destroy the Tenseigan all it said was that he has Massive amounts of chakra.


If you think the Requirement for Destroying the Tenseigan is having massive amounts of chakra then By your logic anyone with massive amounts of chakra can destroy it.  Please  think about what your saying before replying something and think about the Ramifications.  If all you need is massive amounts of chakra who to say Juubi Obito can't destroy it?  All what we heard about it is that it can survive the impact of the moon hitting the earth but was that ever proven?  who to say that wasn't Toneri just talking crap his mind was already twisted thinking that Hamura wanted him to destroy the World.  How much stock can we put in Toneri's word?


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## BLueSky (Dec 28, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> This goes back to my previous statement about it being a combined feat. Naruto never said he could destroy the Tenseigan by himself.
> 
> 
> *Hinata could touch the Tenseigan, but she didn't have enough chakra.  On Hand Naruto couldn't Touch the Tenseigan, but had massive amounts of chakra. *
> ...


Hinata could touch the Tenseigan, *but she didn’t have enough chakra*. On the other hand, Naruto couldn’t touch the Tenseigan, *but had a massive amount of chakra*… If the two of them combined their strength, he thought they could definitely do it.

“Hinata, infuse me with your chakra! If you do that, we might be able to break this thing!”

“Ok!” Hinata answered with a smile, and the two held hands.

Here is the thing: most of this was Naruto's doing.

Hinata herself was not able to even "scratch" Hamura's Tenseigan, let alone damage it; however, after combining her powers with Naruto's, they could destroy it.
The novel explicitly states that the heavy lifting was done by Naruto's own "massive amount of chakra".

What this means is:

Hamura's Tenseigan's Chakra was so powerful that it could move the Moon and push it into the Earth.
That Chakra was much more powerful than Hinata's, hence why she failed to destroy it.
However, Base Adult Naruto's Chakra was powerful enough to destroy Hamura's Tenseigan, resulting in the Moon halting.

You shouln't give it feats to others, cause it's the result of training.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MYGod000 (Dec 28, 2022)

BLueSky said:


> Hinata could touch the Tenseigan, *but she didn’t have enough chakra*. On the other hand, Naruto couldn’t touch the Tenseigan, *but had a massive amount of chakra*… If the two of them combined their strength, he thought they could definitely do it.
> 
> “Hinata, infuse me with your chakra! If you do that, we might be able to break this thing!”
> 
> ...


That not how it works... Just like when Base Naruto killed Transformed Momoshiki by combining his chakra with Boruto chakra...combined it was powerful enough to obliterate Momoshiki after he ate multiple pills.

Explain to me how would Base Naruto+Boruto obliterate transformed Momoshiki that ate pills when Adult Naruto at full power couldn't?  No, it not just some black and white type of deal where Naruto and Hinata adding her powers to Naruto.

Base Naruto Struggled with Toneri's puppets The Same Puppets that Hinata's Father was able to handle until Toneri Jumped him.

All that tells me is that Combined the chakra of Two Resonating powers creates a more powerful attack Far more powerful than both the users. The example of that is with Transformed Momoshiki dying to the combined Power of Base Naruto and Boruto after eating multiple pills and Hinata and Base Naruto destroying the Tenseigan after Base Naruto struggled with Toneri puppets.


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## MYGod000 (Dec 28, 2022)

@BLueSky

What i'm saying here is that It's Intellectually Disingenuous to say Base Naruto is Moon level because he destroyed the Tenseigan Weapon.  Because you left out facts that Hinata helped him destroy it and it was implied Hinata had six path power up from Hamura.

The evidence i showed you supports that it was a combined feat From Naruto and Hinata working together.

You can't tell me how much stronger Hinata combining her chakra with Naruto made that attack that destroyed the Tenseigan weapon.


Just like You can't tell me how much Stronger Base Naruto combing his chakra with boruto jutsu to kill Transformed Momoshiki after he ate multiple pills when Adult Naruto couldn't kill Transformed Momoshiki with his attacks.

What you're trying to propose to me isn't a very good argument that all i'm saying nor does it help your case for Isshiki who can't kill Madara who is immortal.


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## qwrty (Dec 29, 2022)

Isshki claps his hand and rods appear out of their body,
Make it dms juubito for it to be fair


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## MYGod000 (Dec 29, 2022)

qwrty said:


> Isshki claps his hand and rods appear out of their body,
> Make it dms juubito for it to be fair




Madara uses limbo and changes places with a Limbo clone and then uses the rest to overwhelm Isshiki.


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## qwrty (Dec 29, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> Madara uses limbo and changes places with a Limbo clone and then uses the rest to overwhelm Isshiki.


Don't know about that. Will that happened after they get blitzed?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Dec 29, 2022)

qwrty said:


> Don't know about that. Will that happened after they get blitzed?


nothing? even if i imagine boruto villains have higher stats than eos, what can Isshiki do about Madara's regen?


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## qwrty (Dec 29, 2022)

Onyx Emperor said:


> nothing? even if i imagine boruto villains have higher stats than eos, what can Isshiki do about Madara's regen?


He gets sealed inside a pot, thats why I said dms juubito makes it more fair since he counters most of isshiki powers

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Onyx Emperor (Dec 29, 2022)

qwrty said:


> He gets sealed inside a pot


Uh.. that means they fight on that pot when it's still big. While it still can be harmed and therefore destroyed (). Isshiki only uses the pot as seal on enemies that cannot move.
Any reason why Madara doesn't destroy the pot as part of landscape they fight on with a random explosion....?
Any other options for Isshiki that aren't the pot that gets destroyed in the first nanoseconds of the fight?


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## qwrty (Dec 29, 2022)

Onyx Emperor said:


> Uh.. that means they fight on that pot when it's still big. While it still can be harmed and therefore destroyed (). Isshiki only uses the pot as seal on enemies that cannot move.
> Any reason why Madara doesn't destroy the pot as part of landscape they fight on with a random explosion....?
> Any other options for Isshiki that aren't the pot that gets destroyed in the first nanoseconds of the fight?


Pinned by rod then sealed gg

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Dec 29, 2022)

qwrty said:


> Pinned by rod then sealed gg


A JJ pinned by some random rod, bad joke.


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## qwrty (Dec 29, 2022)

Onyx Emperor said:


> A JJ pinned by some random rod, bad joke.


Yet that's the reality

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## MYGod000 (Dec 29, 2022)

qwrty said:


> Don't know about that. Will that happened after they get blitzed?


How exactly is he blitzing him when Madara has Rinne-sharingan?  Sasuke with an inferior Rinnegan was able to follow Isshiki even while being slower and Weaker than him.

Madara is much more powerful than Naruto and Sasuke, and has more chakra than them.  If Sasuke with an Inferior Rinnegan being able to follow Isshiki Than Madara with a 9 Tomoe Rinne-Sharingan would be able to follow Isshiki as well.


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## qwrty (Dec 29, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> How exactly is he blitzing him when Madara has Rinne-sharingan?  Sasuke with an inferior Rinnegan was able to follow Isshiki even while being slower and Weaker than him.
> 
> Madara is much more powerful than Naruto and Sasuke.


Don't feel like arguing this we've been on this debate for months

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MYGod000 (Dec 29, 2022)

qwrty said:


> Don't feel like arguing this we've been on this debate for months



I can't force you to argue, no one is making you say or type anything.

Naruto even those he was Weaker than Isshiki was able to grab him during moments in battle, that Was while he was getting blitz as well.

Rods are not going to Stop Madara he can just use Limbo to switch his position with it just like Sasuke could Use his Rinnegan Abilities after he was impaled with  Isshiki's Rods.

I see no reason why Madara can't especially 3rd eye Madara it not like His Rods are enhanced with Senjutsu it not going to do much to Madara and Any Attack Isshiki do Madara can handled it due to Immortality and superior Regeneration than Naruto and more chakra than Naruto.


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## qwrty (Dec 29, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> I can't force you to argue, no one is making you say or type anything.
> 
> Naruto even those he was Weaker than Isshiki was able to grab him during moments in battle, that Was while he was getting blitz as well.
> 
> ...


Ok

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fused (Dec 29, 2022)

BLueSky said:


> JJ Madara isn't more powerfull than Adult Naruto. Base Adult Naruto AP already moon level via destroying Hamura tenseigan power that forced driving the moon into the earth. SPSM 100% kurama Adult Naruto would be > JJ Madara.
> 
> Also Ishiki more > Adult Naruto. So Ishiki >>> JJ Madara.


Good job bro, you proved that Base Adult Naruto AP is comparable to Old Man Madara's, since Old Man Madara is stated to have undone the Moon. 

Unfortunately for you, Prime Juudara is stronger than Old Man Madara

Reactions: Funny 1


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## BLueSky (Dec 29, 2022)

Fused said:


> Good job bro, you proved that Base Adult Naruto AP is comparable to Old Man Madara's, since Old Man Madara is stated to have undone the Moon.
> 
> Unfortunately for you, Prime Juudara is stronger than Old Man Madara


You proved nothing. That's ST jutsu. It's very different with breaking it with raw power.


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## Fused (Dec 29, 2022)

BLueSky said:


> You proved nothing. That's ST jutsu. It's very different with breaking it with raw power.


Hilarious how this changes absolutely nothing as it's still a Moon level feat.

Also, the Moon in the Naruto verse is a hollow moon, so breaking it with raw power is not impressive at all.


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## BLueSky (Dec 29, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> That not how it works... Just like when Base Naruto killed Transformed Momoshiki by combining his chakra with Boruto chakra...combined it was powerful enough to obliterate Momoshiki after he ate multiple pills.
> 
> Explain to me how would Base Naruto+Boruto obliterate transformed Momoshiki that ate pills when Adult Naruto at full power couldn't?  No, it not just some black and white type of deal where Naruto and Hinata adding her powers to Naruto.
> 
> ...


Boruto chakra can't cut a tree. It was Naruto chakra that give the power.

Nowhere base Naruto struggled again Toneri puppets. Even Toneri strongest puppet was one shotted when they clased their jutsu.

Hinata was proven doesn't even scrated the Tenseigan. The novel explicity stated Naruto need Hinata chakra just to make he can touch the Tenseigan safely.


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## BLueSky (Dec 29, 2022)

Fused said:


> Hilarious how this changes absolutely nothing as it's still a Moon level feat.
> 
> Also, the Moon in the Naruto verse is a hollow moon, so breaking it with raw power is not impressive at all.


Answer me then when Minato get out of Juubito kekkai via ST jutsu.


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## Fused (Dec 29, 2022)

BLueSky said:


> Boruto chakra can't cut a tree


Can't cut a tree but it still injured Fused Momoshitty:






Fused Momoshitty is confirmed to be Sub-Tree and Sub-Rock level  @Raiken @dergeist @MYGod000


Isn't it funny how these zoomer Boruto stans always self-own themselves? 





BLueSky said:


> Answer me then when Minato get out of Juubito kekkai via ST jutsu.


I'm ignoring your headcanon.

It is quite clearly stated that Madara "undid" the Moon.

Your interpretation that it was ST is cute, but largely irrelevant.

Reactions: Like 1 | Kage 1


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## BLueSky (Dec 29, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> @BLueSky
> 
> What i'm saying here is that It's Intellectually Disingenuous to say Base Naruto is Moon level because he destroyed the Tenseigan Weapon.  Because you left out facts that Hinata helped him destroy it and it was implied Hinata had six path power up from Hamura.
> 
> ...


The story proved Hinata doesn't even scrated the Tenseigan. It's Naruto chakra that give the power.

Also the story proved that Naruto need Hinata chakra just to make he can touch the Tenseigan safely.

Also the story proved Boruto doesn't even cut a tree. It's Naruto chakra that give power.


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## BLueSky (Dec 29, 2022)

Fused said:


> Can't cut a tree but it still injured Fused Momoshitty:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You should learn how to read. I said it's Naruto's chakra that give the power.


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## BLueSky (Dec 29, 2022)

Fused said:


> It is quite clearly stated that Madara "undid" the Moon.
> 
> Your interpretation that it was ST is cute, but largely irrelevant.


Escaping a moon level wall via ST jutsu is nothing to do with raw stats.


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## Fused (Dec 29, 2022)

BLueSky said:


> You should learn how to read. I said it's Naruto's chakra that give the power.





I literally have no words for this post.


BLueSky said:


> scaping a wall via ST jutsu is nothing to do with raw stats.


Good thing it's not stated anywhere that it was ST jutsu, in fact it's outright stated he "undid" the Moon. "Undo" is not part of the semantic field of "teleportation".

If you teleport through a wall, you don't say "I undid the wall" 

When Obito teleports through the ground, you don't say "Obito undid the ground"


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## BLueSky (Dec 29, 2022)

Fused said:


> I literally have no words for this post.
> 
> Good thing it's not stated anywhere that it was ST jutsu, in fact it's outright stated he "undid" the Moon. "Undo" is not part of the semantic field of "teleportation".
> 
> If you teleport through a wall, you don't say "I undid the wall"


Kuchiyose is ST jutsu.


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## Fused (Dec 29, 2022)

BLueSky said:


> Kuchiyose is ST jutsu.


Good thing that the action of "undoing the seal stone known as the Moon" is directly separated and preceding the action of "summoning the Gedo Mazo" (what you're talking about).

Read the manga, this ain't it

Reactions: Winner 2


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## BLueSky (Dec 29, 2022)

Fused said:


> Good thing that the action of "undoing the seal stone known as the Moon" is directly separated and preceding the action of "summoning the Gedo Mazo" (what you're talking about).
> 
> Read the manga, this ain't it


Prove?

Kuchiyose Gedou Mazou is ST jutsu.


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## Fused (Dec 29, 2022)

BLueSky said:


> Prove?
> 
> Kuchiyose Gedou Mazou is ST jutsu.






Read the manga before engaging me

Reactions: Agree 1


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## dergeist (Dec 29, 2022)

Fused said:


> Can't cut a tree but it still injured Fused Momoshitty:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Brutal solo


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## BLueSky (Dec 29, 2022)

Fused said:


> Read the manga before engaging me





He negated the Sixpath Chibaku Tensei via ST or Rinnegan Hax since Hagoromo worried someone awaken Rinnegan in present


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## Onyx Emperor (Dec 29, 2022)

qwrty said:


> Yet that's the reality


First of all, i disagree with boruto top tiers being on level of EoS.
Second, you think Isshiki blitzes Madara (lol)
I don't wanna debate about which side's wrong or not, this is just a meme scenario where the villains get stronger yet still immortality is too much for Otsutsukis who didn't reach it...
Isshiki vs Madara conversation:

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MYGod000 (Dec 29, 2022)

BLueSky said:


> Boruto chakra can't cut a tree. It was Naruto chakra that give the power.



You think Base Naruto can Kill Transformed Momoshiki by just Adding Boruto chakra to it? 


Explain to everyone how Base Naruto would have anywhere near the amount of power Necessary  to kill Transformed Momoshiki when Naruto using half the 9 tails couldn't kill him?  since you're arguing Naruto was doing most of the lifting. 


BLueSky said:


> Nowhere base Naruto struggled again Toneri puppets. Even Toneri strongest puppet was one shotted when they clased their jutsu.
> Hinata was proven doesn't even scrated the Tenseigan. The novel explicity stated Naruto need Hinata chakra just to make he can touch the Tenseigan safely.


Naruto couldn't Destroy it either Even those he had Rasenshuriken Jutsu. 

again the point they had to combined their Jutsu to make a far more powerful jutsu to destroy the Tenseigan weapon.


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## MYGod000 (Dec 29, 2022)

BLueSky said:


> The story proved Hinata doesn't even scrated the Tenseigan. It's Naruto chakra that give the power.


again why couldn't Naruto destroy it if you're saying he already had the power to destroy why couldn't he throw a Rasenshuriken at it to destroy it from a distance since his first Attempt at Destroying it was a Rasengan as if he doesn't have Long range attacks?

Again they combined their jutsu and chakra to form a new jutsu which was more powerful than Base Naruto.


BLueSky said:


> Also the story proved that Naruto need Hinata chakra just to make he can touch the Tenseigan safely.



Again Naruto has long range Attacks buddy...






BLueSky said:


> Also the story proved Boruto doesn't even cut a tree. It's Naruto chakra that give power.


Again you've not explained anything.

You said Naruto needed Hinata chakra because he couldn't touch The Tenseigan safely.  I showed you a scan that showed Naruto can Lunch Long Range attacks without having to Touch the Tenseigan or even get near it.

You can't answer why he would need Hinata if you're insinuating he already had the power to destroy the Tenseigan.

Then You said Boruto Jutsu couldn't cut a Tree.  You're words not mine.  I asked you do you believe Base Naruto+Boruto chakra together can kill Transformed Momoshiki.

If were being honest here Adult Naruto and Sasuke are implied to be useless Against Divine Tree during the time Isshiki was revealed to Naruto and Sasuke to be controlling Jigen.


You can't even show me a scan which states Adult Naruto is Stronger than Juubi Jin. in Fact the novels state the opposite when they Said The power that Momoshiki used to knock out 8 tails was a power beyond  the power of the 5 Kages.  That includes adult Naruto.  if anything It sounds to me that they Lowered the  difference in power between 8 tails and Naruto.


I asked you how is the Naruto the Last useful in upscaling Adult Naruto? When All the Last states about Naruto is that he has massive chakra?   Boruto era Naruto is stated to be inferior to Juubi Obito. 


Logically if you're trying to convince me that Adult Naruto>Naruto the Last.

Logically Juubi Jin is above Naruto the Last.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 29, 2022)

Funny how the Moon is still around in spite of being "undone"  

Almost as if Madara did the equivalent of entering the password needed to unlock a bulletproof door

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MYGod000 (Dec 29, 2022)

funny the moon is still their after being sliced in half by Toneri.


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## Ejenku (Dec 29, 2022)

I can see 3 eyed Madara outlasting Jigen but getting wrecked. Juubito gets sealed asap. They do a little better than fate bros only because Madara is stronger.


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## Perrin (Dec 29, 2022)

Hope theres another ear around for Isshiki.


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## Fused (Dec 29, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> funny the moon is still their after being sliced in half by Toneri.


Hilariously, that's the silly copium @WorldsStrongest used when I confronted him about the Moon-level feat from Madara.

He desperately said something like "well the moon is still there so madara clearly didnt affect it even tho the manga page literally states he did".

Well, in that case, the Moon is still there even after being sliced in half by Toneri; so if Old Man Madara's feat is invalid because the Moon is still there, then so is Toneri's (as you said).


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## Unresponsive (Dec 29, 2022)

Ishikki blitz and oneshot.


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## Yagami Uchiha (Dec 29, 2022)

This is a classic Naruto vs Boruto top tier matchup. I’ll say this: If this battle happened during the Naruto manga, then the duo would win without any doubt. In fact, Madara alone could probably win.

However, if this fight happens in the Boruto manga, then we can all be sure that the writers would make Isshiki low diff both of them. They would literally lose faster than N/S. It’s sad, but it’s true.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 5


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## MYGod000 (Dec 29, 2022)

Yagami Uchiha said:


> This is a classic Naruto vs Boruto top tier matchup. I’ll say this: If this battle happened during the Naruto manga, then the duo would win without any doubt. In fact, Madara alone could probably win.
> 
> However, if this fight happens in the Boruto manga, then we can all be sure that the writers would make Isshiki low diff both of them. They would literally lose faster than N/S. It’s sad, but it’s true.


Isshiki wasn't low diffing Naruto and Sasuke he was clearly winning but not low diffing them especially when Naruto could grab Isshiki who was unable to physical break free and used his shrinking abilities to escape Naruto and Sasuke tag team.

What make you think Isshiki would low diff when Madara is more powerful than Adult Naruto and Sasuke?

You also ignored the the clear limitations of Isshiki who has only 3 days to beat them before he dies.  What make you think immortal Entity and JJ Obito who has superior regeneration and durability than Naruto would get low diff?  Don't forget JJ  obito survived half his body being erased from existence by a TSO explosion on him.  Madara alone would out last Isshiki

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## blk (Dec 29, 2022)

Isshiki breaks them.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Optimistic 1


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## MYGod000 (Dec 29, 2022)

blk said:


> Isshiki breaks them.



How is he getting past Madara's Immortality?  How is he getting past JJ Obito regeneration which is superior to Naruto's?


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## blk (Dec 30, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> How is he getting past Madara's Immortality?  How is he getting past JJ Obito regeneration which is superior to Naruto's?



Kick their ass till they destabilize, then take out the Bijuu  

Worst case there's BFR with S/T.


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## Ludi (Dec 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Funny how the Moon is still around in spite of being "undone"
> 
> Almost as if Madara did the equivalent of entering the password needed to unlock a bulletproof door


Yea, in general, summoning something out of something doesn't give the summoner the level of DC equal to where the thing is summoned from. That makes no sense at all


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## MYGod000 (Dec 30, 2022)

blk said:


> Kick their ass till they destabilize, then take out the Bijuu



Again, their is bit to bisect here.

Kicking their arse sure but that you're need to do more than that to beat Madara as 8th Gate Gai was Beating Madara's Arse and still lost. 

This Madara is immortal...so he has no fear of dying.  How would Isshiki do something he never done to Naruto?  Naruto is far less Durable and Weaker than JJ Obito who can blow up half his body and erase it with a TSO and still regenerate back. Has naruto ever done something like that?  if not than we can agree that Naruto Regeneration is inferior to Juubi Jins. 


blk said:


> Worst case there's BFR with S/T.


Then you are admitting That Isshiki can't win by Brute Force which was my point to get you to understand here since Isshiki has a time limit and then he dies.  Madara without the Juubi can already fight for 24 hours non-stop. 

Juubi+Divine Tree+Rinne-Sharingan should astronomically increase Madara's reserves+Immortality.  To BFR Madara he needs to get Close for that Limbo is going to be right their for him to beat him down. 

9 Tomoe Rinne-Sharingan should easily be able to let Madara See Shrinking Isshiki since Sasuke Inferior 6 Tomoe Rinnegan was able to see him Shrinking.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 30, 2022)

Ishiki low diff


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## WinNo1929 (Dec 30, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> . Madara without the Juubi can already fight for 24 hours non-stop.


Wrong, his superior Kaguya literally got fatigued in her fight

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 30, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Wrong, his superior Kaguya literally got fatigued in her fight



Kaguya has at least x2 as much chakra as Juudara, given what Sasuke and Naruto said.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 30, 2022)

Jigen would be more than enough to stomp them

Hell hed more than likely take it even restricted to V1 tbh

Juubito is a total liability here even in the latter case

isshiki fucking dogwalks them

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Fused (Dec 30, 2022)

@WorldsStrongest What's up bro, how you doing?

You ready to hand out some more concessions to me? 

You know I'm always open to that


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## Fused (Dec 30, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Jigen would be more than enough to stomp them
> 
> Hell hed more than likely take it even restricted to V1 tbh
> 
> ...


Jesus, 2 months of banning, and this guy still didn't do his research  

Sure bro, Jigen is going to "stomp" Madara even though he has no counter whatsoever to Limbo blitz attack

Reactions: Agree 1


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## JayK (Dec 30, 2022)

Cuckbito and Cuckdara vs a gigachad

surely wonder how this goes

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 30, 2022)

Fused said:


> Sure bro, Jigen is going to "stomp" Madara


He is actually


Fused said:


> he has no counter whatsoever to Limbo blitz attack


By this same logic Jigen wins because Madara has no counter to "BFR blitz attack"

Wanna know the only difference between this statement and yours tho?

Jigen actually has the feats to perform a blitz on Madara while Madara doesnt even sniff Jigens stat scaling

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Fused (Dec 30, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Madara has no counter to "BFR blitz attack"


Madara has 2 Rinnegan and 1 Rinnesharingan and dimensional powers via his Limbo technique and this dude thinks he can't counter a BFR attack 




> igen actually has the feats to perform a blitz on Madara while Madara doesnt even sniff Jigens stat scaling



"Stat scaling" this is not a fucking videogame, what a joke


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 30, 2022)

Fused said:


> Madara has 2 Rinnegan and 1 Rinnesharingan


And is still notably slower, or at best on par, with even WA Sasuke and Naruto

Who in turn are much slower than Jigen or Isshiki


Fused said:


> dimensional powers


No he doesnt


Fused said:


> this dude thinks he can't counter a BFR


Because he cant

Show me Madara sending his own body to other dimensions tho and Ill happily concede

Reactions: Like 4 | Dislike 1


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## Unresponsive (Dec 30, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No he doesnt


Limbo is a dimension type ability I guess.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Limbo is a dimension type ability I guess.



It is, but it doesn't transport Madara to another dimensions, it only transports a clone of him to the dimension he currently inhabits.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Limbo is a dimension type ability I guess.





WorldsStrongest said:


> Show me Madara sending his own body to other dimensions tho and Ill happily concede


Madara wouldnt have went out of his way to get a Kamui MS eye if his own Rinnegan technique could traverse other dimensions


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## Unresponsive (Dec 30, 2022)

Fused said:


> his dude thinks he can't counter a BFR attack


No everyone does. Fused you're silly, madara has absolutely nothing to counter a bfr attack.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Unresponsive (Dec 30, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Madara wouldnt have went out of his way to get a Kamui MS eye if his own Rinnegan technique could traverse other dimensions


A dimension ability in naruto doesn't always have to mean travels. Limbo is specifically stated to be clones in another dimension, that's the entire reason people cannot see them.


However Madara has absolutely nothing that allows him to travel or teleportation.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TraderJoe (Dec 30, 2022)

Kamui is stated to be a sealed dimension. Madara needing Obito's eye to access it does not imply he cannot traverse dimensions.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> A dimension ability in naruto doesn't always have to mean travels


It does if you wanna avoid BFR


Unresponsive said:


> However Madara has absolutely nothing that allows him to travel or teleportation


Thanks for the concession


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 30, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> It does if you wanna avoid BFR
> 
> Thanks for the concession



He wasn't arguing otherwise to begin with.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 30, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> It does if you wanna avoid BFR
> 
> Thanks for the concession


I wasn't arguing against that, if you read my previous messages you could see that I said "He cannot avoid it" I've said it numerous times.
My argument is that the limbo is a dimension move, which you claim it isn't because it doesn't allow him to travel.

In your message "it does if you wanna avoid BFR" it seems like you're implying that it is a dimensional type attack so it seems like you conceded. 

GG you played yourself.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Charisma (Dec 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> I wasn't arguing against that, if you read my previous messages you could see that I said "He cannot avoid it" I've said it numerous times.
> My argument is that the limbo is a dimension move, which you claim it isn't because it doesn't allow him to travel.
> 
> In your message "it does if you wanna avoid BFR" it seems like you're implying that it is a dimensional type attack so it seems like you conceded.
> ...


Not to mention that teleporting Madara to another dimension would leave Jigen alone with shadows that will still kill him. In which case you concede he still gets killed or the shadows can return to Madara after their time is up, meaning that they can infact traverse dimensions.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> I wasn't arguing against that, if you read my previous messages you could see that I said "He cannot avoid it" I've said it numerous times


Fair enuff


Unresponsive said:


> My argument is that the limbo is a dimension move, which you claim it isn't


I didnt say that, parroting what you said earlier, if YOu read my previius messages (as well as what i quoted back at you specifically)...


WorldsStrongest said:


> Show me Madara sending his own body to other dimensions tho and Ill happily concede


I said it cant be used to send his own body to other dimensions

Madara having the ability to have clones in a unique space of his own isnt a counter to BFR was my point


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## Unresponsive (Dec 30, 2022)

Charisma said:


> Not to mention that teleporting Madara to another dimension would leave Jigen alone with shadows that will still kill him. In which case you concede he still gets killed or the shadows can return to Madara after their time is up, meaning that they can infact traverse dimensions.


What exactly are you talking about. My entire argument is that MADARA cannot teleport. It seems like you're trying to strawman the argument, also when has the limbo clones ever teleported.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Charisma (Dec 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> What exactly are you talking about. My entire argument is that MADARA cannot teleport. It seems like you're trying to strawman the argument, also when has the limbo clones ever teleported.


What are you talking about? When did I ever say they could?


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## Unresponsive (Dec 30, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Fair enuff
> 
> I didnt say that, parroting what you said earlier, if YOu read my previius messages (as well as what i quoted back at you specifically)...
> 
> ...


Fused said "Madara has dimension powers" you specifically said "no he doesn't"


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## Unresponsive (Dec 30, 2022)

Charisma said:


> What are you talking about? When did I ever say they could?


"he still gets killed or the shadows can return to Madara after their time is up, meaning that they can infact traverse dimensions."
Are you implying that the limbo clones can allow madara to travel or that the limbo clones itself can teleport.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 30, 2022)

Charisma said:


> Not to mention that teleporting Madara to another dimension would leave Jigen alone with shadows that will still kill him


Limbo are literally too weak to hurt Jigen with any notable injury

But even steelmanning this, all hed need to do is leave the dimension that hes being tagged by invisible forces by and there would be nothing the clones could do to him  

Or he could just shrink and theyd never tag or find him either

Or he could just outlast them as Limbo clones have an insanely breif duration before forcibly returning to Madaras body

Even if we assume that Jigen is stupid enough and ill equipped enough to sit there and let Limbo attack him constantly after hes negged the real Madara, the Limbo clones still arent beating him in the brief time period they have to attempt to do so with their shitty Taijutsu vs the mans insane feats of physicality  


Charisma said:


> or the shadows can return to Madara after their time is up, meaning that they can infact traverse dimensions.


Thats not how that works at all

Can Naruto actively send his chakra and awareness across dimensions at will simply because if his clones were sent to another dimension via someone elses portals, and are then popped in another dimension he gets his chakra and experience back thats within said clones?

Reactions: Winner 4 | Disagree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Fused said "Madara has dimension powers" you specifically said "no he doesn't"


In the context of BFRing his own body yes. because he doesnt have such dimensional powers

As I made clear in literally my next sentence


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## Charisma (Dec 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> "he still gets killed or the shadows can return to Madara after their time is up, meaning that they can infact traverse dimensions."
> Are you implying that the limbo clones can allow madara to travel or that the limbo clones itself can teleport.


Duh. The shadows have a time limit before returning to Madara. Fact. So *if* you believe they will return, you must concede they can go to Madara in the dimension Jigen leaves him.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 30, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> In the context of BFRing his own body yes. because he doesnt have such dimensional powers
> 
> As I made clear in literally my next sentence


As I explained dimension type abilities doesn't automatically mean teleportation or allowing one to travel. So you've conceded but with an excuse as if that'll save you.

Bros getting cooked

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 30, 2022)

Charisma said:


> Duh. The shadows have a time limit before returning to Madara. Fact. So *if* you believe they will return, you must concede they can go to Madara in the dimension Jigen leaves him.


Or theyd just be cancelled out without returning to his body

ya know

As happened in canon when Kaguya violated his bussy?


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> As I explained dimension type abilities doesn't automatically mean teleportation or allowing one to travel


I never said it did

My entire point was that they dont so I have no idea why youd raise that point towards my argument


Unresponsive said:


> So you've conceded


If by "concede" you mean "pointed out from jump street" then sure I guess


Unresponsive said:


> as if that'll save you.


Save me from what?

the fact you agreed with me from the very onset and are just getting hung up on semantics?


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## Charisma (Dec 30, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Limbo are literally too weak to hurt Jigen with any notable injury


If Base Kaguya can one-shot Isshiki, I don't see why five Madara can't one-shot the weaker Jigen. Surprise attacks work different, but I know you won't agree to this.



> But even steelmanning this, all hed need to do is leave the dimension that hes being tagged by invisible forces by and there would be nothing the clones could do to him
> 
> Or he could just shrink and theyd never tag or find him either
> 
> Or he could just outlast them as Limbo clones have an insanely breif duration before forcibly returning to Madaras body


Assuming he isn't instantly killed, sure.



> Can Naruto actively send his chakra and awareness across dimensions at will simply because if his clones were sent to another dimension via someone elses portals, and are then popped in another dimension he gets his chakra and experience back thats within said clones?


Clones poof. Shadows physically return, as we are shown. There is a difference. And yes, Naruto can send his chakra across dimensions. Madara doing so here, but with a different form of chakra in his shape, would be no different in that context.

And yes, they did disperse when Madara lost control of his entire body and chakra network, but that isn't the case here.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 30, 2022)

Charisma said:


> Duh. The shadows have a time limit before returning to Madara. Fact. So *if* you believe they will return, you must concede they can go to Madara in the dimension Jigen leaves him.


He projects his limbo clone. So if madara were to be teleported away the clones would also be transported alongside madara. That's why every time he's using the limbo clone, he's always either close ranged or mid ranged.


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## Charisma (Dec 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> He projects his limbo clone. So if madara were to be teleported away the clones would also be transported alongside madara. That's why every time he's using the limbo clone, he's always either close ranged or mid ranged.


So if Madara himself is the only target of the black hole (Kamui or Karma teleportation), but the clones move with him, you are quite literally saying the clones themselves are doing the teleportation...

The guy was all the way up near the moon as his clones fought Naruto on the ground.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 30, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I never said it did
> 
> My entire point was that they dont so I have no idea why youd raise that point towards my argument
> 
> ...


You definitely implied it in your previous messages. You've already implied that it couldn't be a dimension attack because he couldn't "travel or teleport with it".

You've already conceded.

As if that was going to save you from losing.   What is blud waffling about.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 30, 2022)

Charisma said:


> So if Madara himself is the only target of the black hole (Kamui or Karma teleportation), but the clones move with him, you are quite literally saying the clones themselves are doing the teleportation...
> 
> The guy was all the way up near the moon as his clones fought Naruto on the ground.






 The guy was looking at the moon from a far away distance while being in the air. His clones are limited to that range until proven otherwise or directly stated to have inf range. If you can prove it has inf range I'll concede.

He is going to be teleported to a place that isn't even located on the eart and will exist somewhere else so yes they will reach a limited range and get teleported from the jutsu as well.

Madara is limbo, his shadow is literally the basis of limbo. If he is being teleported it is only logical for his shadow to be teleported alongside with him by the same jutsu and not on it's own. However it doesn't mean the clones will somehow pull a jutsu they do not have out of their ass and teleport to the place.

By transported I mean it would be also affected by the jutsu.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Charisma (Dec 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> The guy was looking at the moon from a far away distance while being in the air. His clones are limited to that range until proven otherwise or directly stated to have inf range. If you can prove it has inf range I'll concede.


Point is that is not close or medium range. He far exceeded the height of the Holy Tree and Sasuke was zipping through the air and back in his Perfect Susanoo to close the distance.



> He is going to be teleported to a place that isn't even located on the eart and will exist somewhere else so yes they will reach a limited range and get teleported from the jutsu as well.
> 
> Madara is limbo, his shadow is literally the basis of limbo. If he is being teleported it is only logical for his shadow to be teleported alongside with him by the same jutsu and not on it's own. However it doesn't mean the clones will somehow pull a jutsu they do not have out of their ass and teleport to the place.
> 
> By transported I mean it would be also affected by the jutsu.


Space-time techniques, like Kamui and Karma teleportation, spawn a portal that only teleports whatever is in the range of that portal. For example, the Databook specifically says Kamui's portal size is determined by the caster. If the shadows teleport to Madara, they are doing it of their own will. Just like Naruto's clones don't follow him when he gets teleported. You're literally admitting they can cross dimensions right now.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 30, 2022)

Charisma said:


> Point is that is not close or medium range. He far exceeded the height of the Holy Tree and Sasuke was zipping through the air and back in his Perfect Susanoo to close the distance.
> 
> 
> Space-time techniques, like Kamui and Karma teleportation, spawn a portal that only teleports whatever is in the range of that portal. For example, the Databook specifically says Kamui's portal size is determined by the caster. If the shadows teleport to Madara, they are doing it of their own will. Just like Naruto's clones don't follow him when he gets teleported. You're literally admitting they can cross dimensions right now.


1st part makes sense 2nd doesn't.

If madara is being teleported, his clones that are physically created from his shadow will be transported by the jutsu as well. It's as simple as that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Charisma (Dec 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> 1st part makes sense 2nd doesn't.
> 
> If madara is being teleported, his clones that are physically created from his shadow will be transported by the jutsu as well. It's as simple as that.


They aren't literally his shadow, if that's where you're going. And even if they were, a link doesn't matter. Deidara's arm was linked pretty good to his body, but his body didn't go with it.

But all right. So you're saying when Madara used Kamui, his shadow teleported with him? That Naruto wasn't sealing it, but was just goofing around? Or are you saying something like sealing would stop a space-time technique, even though we see they don't? The most recent example being with Naruto being unsealed by Boruto and Kawaki.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 30, 2022)

Charisma said:


> They aren't literally his shadow, if that's where you're going. And even if they were, a link doesn't matter. Deidara's arm was linked pretty good to his body, but his body didn't go with it.
> 
> But all right. So you're saying when Madara used Kamui, his shadow teleported with him? That Naruto wasn't sealing it, but was just goofing around? Or are you saying something like sealing would stop a space-time technique, even though we see they don't? The most recent example being with Naruto being unsealed by Boruto and Kawaki.


Yes they're his literal shadow. Deidara arm was linked before it became unliked because it was sliced off. Comparing it someones literal shadow to someones chopped physical body is silly. I have never seen or heard of someones shadow separating from them.

Madara got sliced up by sasuke, and had his entire lower half of his body there.


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## Charisma (Dec 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Yes they're his literal shadow. Deidara arm was linked before it became unliked because it was sliced off. Comparing it someones literal shadow to someones chopped physical body is silly. I have never seen or heard of someones shadow separating from them.
> 
> Madara got sliced up by sasuke, and had his entire lower half of his body there.


And how exactly did you come to that conclusion? The Limbo versions of himself are not created from nor are literally his shadow.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 30, 2022)

Charisma said:


> And how exactly did you come to that conclusion? The Limbo versions of himself are not created from nor are literally his shadow.


Well in the canon manga known as naruto and the limbo databook it says it is a shadow version of madara. He projects his shadow and makes a limbo clone, his limbo clone faced damage and when it went back to him he felt it.
Sasuke also says it's specifically his "shadow"

You can't win, I've been preparing for every argument you could possibly make before you've even thought about it.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Charisma (Dec 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Well in the canon manga known as naruto and the limbo databook it says it is a shadow version of madara. He projects his shadow and makes a limbo clone, his limbo clone faced damage and when it went back to him he felt it.
> Sasuke also says it's specifically his "shadow"
> 
> You can't win, I've been preparing for every argument you could possibly make before you've even thought about it.


You've already lost. I'm just seeing how far you'll take your logic. His shadow is not physically connected to him. We can literally see no physical touch multiple times. Saying you've never seen a shadow separate is false, because you literally see it on panel. The shadow already exists in another dimension, a fact told in "the canon manga known as naruto and the limbo databook," so you saying it can't be in a different dimension than Madara is also gravely false.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Unresponsive (Dec 31, 2022)

Charisma said:


> You've already lost. I'm just seeing how far you'll take your logic. His shadow is not physically connected to him. We can literally see no physical touch multiple times. Saying you've never seen a shadow separate is false, because you literally see it on panel. The shadow already exists in another dimension, a fact told in "the canon manga known as naruto and the limbo databook," so you saying it can't be in a different dimension than Madara is also gravely false.


I haven't lost at all, I didn't concede. The argument is logical but yours doesn't make sense. Just recently you tried comparing an arm detaching to ones shadow.

No one's shadow is *physically* connected to them but shadows are everywhere people go. So somehow projecting your shadow= separating a shadow from somehow.

My statement was "If Madara was teleported away somewhere beyond his range, his limbo clones will also be transported there". I didn't say "his clones cannot be in a different dimension than him" because that wouldn't contradict what the limbo clones are. Those are two different things.


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## Charisma (Dec 31, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> My statement was "If Madara was teleported away somewhere beyond his range, his limbo clones will also be transported there". I didn't say "his clones cannot be in a different dimension than him" because that wouldn't contradict what the limbo clones are. Those are two different things.


And your argument still has no basis. If Madara is projecting his shadow into a different dimension, then they are in a different dimension. If Madara teleports to a different dimension (D2), his shadows are still in the Limbo dimension ready to beat Jigen. They do not teleport to D2. Madara doesn't project his shadow into the same dimension, D2, as himself. He projects it into the Limbo dimension.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 31, 2022)

Charisma said:


> And your argument still has no basis. If the shadows can both be physically separate and exist in another dimension then there's no reason for them to suddenly be unable to exist in that dimension when Madara teleports. The Databook states he is projecting his shadow into a different dimension. He's already doing what you're saying he can't. You're saying they'd teleport just because, with absolutely zero basis. When Madara gets damaged or moves, his shadows don't get damaged or move (when separate). But suddenly if he teleports, which is just moving, the shadows must now also teleport with him. You're saying he suddenly, for no reason, can't project his shadow into the dimension anymore.


1. Stop saying that I am claiming he cannot use limbo clones, you're misinterpreting what I said. I said that he could use limbo clones but if he reaches his limit which he certainly would if he were to get teleported by Ishikki, his clones would also go back with him.

2. When madara his clones don't get damaged but when his clones get damaged after a certain period of time he will also get damaged too. 

3. My " claim with no basis " is based on logic, the same way your claim on how they're supposed to teleport is based on reasonable logic.

4. These clones that are in another dimension are literally still in the range of an original madara so my argument wouldn't apply to the clones when in range.


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## Charisma (Dec 31, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> 1. Stop saying that I am claiming he cannot use limbo clones, you're misinterpreting what I said. I said that he could use limbo clones but if he reaches his limit which he certainly would if he were to get teleported by Ishikki, his clones would also go back with him.


"Going with Madara" means teleporting. Once again, you're saying the shadows leave the Limbo dimension to join the dimension Madara is in. If he's not projecting into the Limbo dimension, then it really isn't Limbo he's using, is it? Exactly the opposite of what you're arguing. We're going to keep going in circles, so it's best to just stop here.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Unresponsive (Dec 31, 2022)

Charisma said:


> "Going with Madara" means teleporting. Once again, you're saying the shadows leave the Limbo dimension to join the dimension Madara is in. If he's not projecting into the Limbo dimension, then it really isn't Limbo he's using, is it? Exactly the opposite of what you're arguing. We're going to keep going in circles, so it's best to just stop here.


I'll just have the last say.

 You're over complicating it for yourself to try to find an argument lol.

They're going to be teleported as well but that doesn't automatically mean they're somehow going to get forced out of the place to get teleported to the dimension...that wouldn't be able to happen since it wouldn't even make sense in the naruto world.

See you some other time ig.


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## Fused (Dec 31, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And is still notably slower, or at best on par, with even WA Sasuke and Naruto


Except that Madara as per his own admission was jobbing the entire time with the clown "sideshow" (the precise word he used) Team 7, while Sasuke and Naruto were going all out.

So this proves that a jobbing Madara can match an all out Sasuke and Naruto, you concede that Madara is stronger and faster than Fate Bros, concession accepted 


WorldsStrongest said:


> No he doesnt


He literally created his own dimension, a ghostly recreation of Earth, and his own phantom clones, which exist in that dimension and he controls through that dimension and he can literally switch places with like Sasuke does with Ameno and this guy says Madara didn't have dimensional powers.

What a joke.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Because he cant
> 
> Show me Madara sending his own body to other dimensions tho and Ill happily concede


Why would he go to another dimension when he wanted to use Infinite Tsukuyomi ON THE EARTH ??????? 


That doesn't prove he doesn't have dimensional powers, because he literally had no story reason at all to ever go to another dimension  His whole plan consists in placing THE EARTH inside a massive genjutsu so he's not going to go to another dimension randomly 


You still tried to claim that he doesn't have dimensional powers when his Limbo is blatantly a dimensional power, so you concede. Concession accepted.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 31, 2022)

Fused said:


> Except that Madara as per his own admission was jobbing the entire time


No he wasnt

the dude legit ran for his fucking life multiple times in search of numerous amps because he knew he was inferior kiddo

He straight up states, VERBATIM, "I NEED more power" " I NEED to get my other eye back soon"

And before you try and cope with him merely lying about this to throw the Bros off guard or something?

he said this internally...Mentally monologued it...So thats bullshit cope on your part

Madara literally states outright he needs to amp himself to deal with even just 1 of the bros attacks as that entire chapter was the Sasuke show where he was single handedly kicking madaras teeth in


Fused said:


> Sasuke and Naruto were going all out.


1. They actually were incapable of going all out as they dont know how to properly use their new powers yet. We see this as Naruto doesnt even learn to fly until post Madara and Sasuke doesnt master PS until post Kaguya when he starts fusing it with Ninjutsu and such. They improve by leaps and bounds post Madara fight, so this assertion they fought him with their full power is false. The best they could manage aty the time? Sure I guess if you ignore how little of their total arsenal they used that we know they possess at that point  

No BM for Naruto, no Biju chakra amps, no TBBs and very minimal KB usage...No Amaterasu for Sasuke, no Enton, no Susanoo (until Madara amps himself much further with his 2nd Rinnegan and 3rd eye anyway)

2. Madara was also going all out. He literally states he needed to increase his max power just to fight a single fate bro after he finishes sucking off Sasuke for an entire page...Then after getting his 2nd Rinnegan and 3rd eye, he uses all 3 of his most powerful techniques all in tandem and they all fail to do anything at all to the bros who beat his every Jutsu without using their own best shit or anything close to it.

This does nothing for you


Fused said:


> concession accepted


I dont concede to invented occurrences not actually present in the manga


Fused said:


> He literally created his own dimension


He didnt create shit  

Did Obito and Kakashi create the sealed dimension of Kamui simply because its a space they have access to?

Did Sasuke create the mural dimension solely because he can travel to it? Or the Ice realm?

This is garbage kiddo


Fused said:


> he can literally switch places with like Sasuke does with Ameno


Yeah he can switch locations within the same time/space

Thats not the same thing as travelling to other dimensions and the assertion that it is is real dumb

We straight up see Sasuke is unable to use his normal Ameno technique to travel dimensions in the Kaguya fight. Not to mention, Obito, even with Rikudo amped DMS, openly states he also cant do this unless Kaguya opens a portal for him to connect to first.

Travelling to another location in the same dimension =/= travelling to other dimensions

Try harder


Fused said:


> Why would he go to another dimension


Thats not my fucking problem  

You claimed he can travel to other dimensions so now youve gotta show that he can

Thats how burden of proof works child


Fused said:


> That doesn't prove he doesn't have dimensional powers


I dont need to prove he DOESNT have something

You need to prove that he DOES have something 

Learn how burden of proof works

I dont need to prove a negative claim, you do need to prove a positive one

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## blk (Dec 31, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> Again, their is bit to bisect here.
> 
> Kicking their arse sure but that you're need to do more than that to beat Madara as 8th Gate Gai was Beating Madara's Arse and still lost.
> 
> This Madara is immortal...so he has no fear of dying.  How would Isshiki do something he never done to Naruto?  Naruto is far less Durable and Weaker than JJ Obito who can blow up half his body and erase it with a TSO and still regenerate back. Has naruto ever done something like that?  if not than we can agree that Naruto Regeneration is inferior to Juubi Jins.



Madara does have very good regeneration but i'm confident Isshiki can destabilize him.

Like by literally breaking him in half or something like that.

Also putting tons of black rods in his body.



MYGod000 said:


> Then you are admitting That Isshiki can't win by Brute Force which was my point to get you to understand here since Isshiki has a time limit and then he dies.  Madara without the Juubi can already fight for 24 hours non-stop.
> 
> Juubi+Divine Tree+Rinne-Sharingan should astronomically increase Madara's reserves+Immortality.  To BFR Madara he needs to get Close for that Limbo is going to be right their for him to beat him down.
> 
> 9 Tomoe Rinne-Sharingan should easily be able to let Madara See Shrinking Isshiki since Sasuke Inferior 6 Tomoe Rinnegan was able to see him Shrinking.



But i'm cool with Isshiki not winning just with brute force, it's not something i disagree with  

I mean shrinking itself is hax and not brute force, so that alone means he isn't winning just by beating them up.

That would almost impossible obviously against characters with so much resilience / vitality.


I disagree that they can deal with shrinking and BFR.

It's just too far fetched to believe they will be able to constantly dodge it, when they were hit plenty of times by all kinds of abilities in canon.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 31, 2022)

Even tossing BFR entirely out the window...

If Jigen can casually restrain and enslave a Juubi and turn it into his own personal juicebox, the idea that he has no way to beat or incap JJ Madara because of his "muh immortality doe" is beyond fucking hilarious.

He is also shown straight up bodying Naruto with that sealing pot.

Even if we assume Jigen doesnt have the feats to fucking oneshot Madara through the protection of his strongest Jutsu (which he does, and then some) that doesnt matter. Worst case for him there is he just drains Madara with his rods and/or seals him. The dude had Naruto drained entirely dry during the span of a brief skirmish...And that was while also splitting attention between him and Sasuke AND draining Sasuke just as badly.

Thats 2 Kurama+ level dudes drained dry in terms of stamina very fucking easily. The dudes sponge capabilities are massively overlooked.

Hes also got the Juubis chakra...So he can destablize Madara and Juubito and get past their "immortality" that way.

Madara has no wincon here, people need to stop with the fucking copium already.

Even setting aside his ability to blitz and oneshot these fools (that he has in spades) he could still 100% take this

Reactions: Agree 4


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 31, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Imagine comparing Jigen's Juubi to Madara's Juubi as the JJ thinking they're the same...


The point isnt they are equal the point is he has a thing he cant just kill literally chained up and defeated in the basement and that thing just so happens to be exactly what Madara is relaint on for God tier scaling

Im not asserting Jigens Juubi = Madaras or Madara himself nor do i have to, the point is immortality isnt a concern.

In terms of standing, the dudes fondling of Naruto and Sasuke is all you need to equate him as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madara or Madaras Juubi

As they individually outscale even madara himself

Nice strawman tho

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Raiken (Dec 31, 2022)

> Imagine comparing Jigen's Juubi to Madara's Juubi as the JJ thinking they're the same...





WorldsStrongest said:


> The point isnt they are equal the point is he has a thing he cant just kill literally chained up and defeated in the basement and that thing just so happens to be exactly what Madara is relaint on for God tier scaling
> 
> Im not asserting Jigens Juubi = Madaras or Madara himself nor do i have to, the point is immortality isnt a concern.
> 
> ...


Juudara's Juubi is Kaguya...

Jigen's Juubi Is a Seedling Juubi that's much smaller and likely much weaker than the 1st form Juubi from the war.

They are worlds apart.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 31, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Juudara's Juubi is Kaguya


...

No

no it fucking isnt

jesus you and your terrible misunderstandings of this franchise


Raiken said:


> Jigen's Juubi Is a Seedling Juubi that's much smaller and likely much weaker than the 1st form Juubi from the war.
> 
> They are worlds apart.





WorldsStrongest said:


> The point isnt they are equal the point is he has a thing he cant just kill literally chained up and defeated in the basement and that thing just so happens to be exactly what Madara is relaint on for God tier scaling


Cool so you strawmanned me twice

Fucking genius

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 31, 2022)

Its hilarious to me how every single Madara fan under the sun has literally no idea what the Juubi is despite it being so integral to the dudes scaling 

Juubi > Daemon > Isshiki > Jigen > Juubi > Adult Bros > Fused Momo ~ Kaguya ~ Juubi >>> Madara >>> Juubito ~ Juubi > Hagoromo and Hamura with seals > Juubi

The Madara cope train 

Then they be like "I see no contradictions"

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fused (Dec 31, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> If Jigen can casually restrain and enslave a Juubi and turn it into his own personal juicebox, the idea that he has no way to beat or incap JJ Madara because of his "muh immortality doe" is beyond fucking hilarious.


Imagine comparing a fucking wild unfinished juubi, a literal piece of shit (yet even that was stated to be a "worst case scenario" to fight by Adult Naruto himself), to Juudara, a Juubi Jinchuuriki who absorbed a much stronger Juubi. What clown travesty is this 


You also said you would concede if I showed you Madara teleporting himself to another dimension.





Concession accepted, have a happy new year.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 31, 2022)

Fused said:


> Imagine comparing a fucking wild unfinished juubi, a literal piece of shit (yet even that was stated to be a "worst case scenario" to fight by Adult Naruto himself), to Juudara, a Juubi Jinchuuriki who absorbed a much stronger Juubi. What clown travesty is this
> 
> 
> You also said you would concede if I showed you Madara teleporting himself to another dimension.
> ...



I think he meant Madara with his own power, not a stolen Mangekyo.

I accept your concession on his behalf, Maru


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## Fused (Dec 31, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I think he meant Madara with his own power, not a stolen Mangekyo.
> 
> I accept your concession on his behalf, Maru


Don't jump into this.

@WorldsStrongest has already conceded to me, making this the last concession I collect from him in 2022.

I already collected so many concessions from you throughout 2022, do you really want to concede one last time this year? 2022 is almost over, this is unnecessary. But I guess that I still have some space left in my pockets, if you insist 


Kakashi's eyes are also fucking stolen btw yet no one has a problem with that, why draw the line at Madara

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 31, 2022)

Fused said:


> I already collected so many concessions from you throughout 2022, do you really want to concede one last time this year? 2022 is almost over, this is unnecessary. But I guess that I still have some space left in my pockets, if you insist



Fam, gaining -100 concessions isn't a good thing.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Ludi (Dec 31, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> The point isnt they are equal the point is he has a thing he cant just kill literally chained up and defeated in the basement and that thing just so happens to be exactly what Madara is relaint on for God tier scaling
> 
> Im not asserting Jigens Juubi = Madaras or Madara himself nor do i have to, the point is immortality isnt a concern.
> 
> ...



I've seen way worse equalisations between different "juubis" than that regardless

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MYGod000 (Dec 31, 2022)

WinNo1929 said:


> Wrong, his superior Kaguya literally got fatigued in her fight


Because Kaguya was using Jutsu that Drains Massive amounts of her chakra.

all Madara attacks are not stated to drain massive amounts of his chakra.


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## MYGod000 (Dec 31, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> As I explained dimension type abilities doesn't automatically mean teleportation or allowing one to travel. So you've conceded but with an excuse as if that'll save you.
> 
> Bros getting cooked



You believe Madara's Limbo clones will return to him even after he is teleported to another Dimension. is that correct because i don't want to misrepresent what you're saying here.  if that what you're saying then you are conceding that  when the time limit is up they will return to Madara while in another Dimension.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 31, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> You believe Madara's Limbo clones will return to him even after he is teleported to another Dimension. is that correct because i don't want to misrepresent what you're saying here.  if that what you're saying then you are conceding that  when the time limit is up they will return to Madara while in another Dimension.


no that's not what I am saying.


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## MYGod000 (Dec 31, 2022)

blk said:


> Madara does have very good regeneration but i'm confident Isshiki can destabilize him.
> 
> Like by literally breaking him in half or something like that.
> 
> Also putting tons of black rods in his body.



Where you get the idea he doesn't have good regeneration when we see inferior JJ Obito regenerate half his erased body from TSO explosion?  Shinra Tensei exist which would get around Tons of Black Rods. 






blk said:


> But i'm cool with Isshiki not winning just with brute force, it's not something i disagree with
> 
> I mean shrinking itself is hax and not brute force, so that alone means he isn't winning just by beating them up.
> 
> That would almost impossible obviously against characters with so much resilience / vitality.



when he is shrink Isshiki is at risk of being killed in one attack Jigen was almost one shotted by Sasuke while he was shrink and absorbing a jutsu.  


blk said:


> I disagree that they can deal with shrinking and BFR.
> 
> It's just too far fetched to believe they will be able to constantly dodge it, when they were hit plenty of times by all kinds of abilities in canon.


I didn't say he would be able to constantly dodge him that unrealistic just like you saying Isshiki would steam roll his way over two individuals who are far more powerful, More durable, More stamina, and more chakra than Adult Naruto. 

Isshiki when shrinking can't do anything but dodge attacks.  He doesn't have the same mass to do any damage while he is like that Madara can easily use Shinra Tensei or Pull him towards him with universal pull.  Madara can use Limbo to counter BFR Isshiki needs to be up close to do it.


The only person we've seen use BFR in combat was Jigen...Isshiki hasn't not saying he can't but it not in character for him since he would have used it against Naruto or Sasuke to separate them. 

Madara outlasting Isshiki is very likely since he has the stamina to do so and he is immortal while Isshiki only has 3 days to win or he dies.  He has 4-5 Limbo clones that he can't see and physical attack don't work on them.


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## MYGod000 (Dec 31, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> no that's not what I am saying.



If you believe they will get teleported to Madara then it is.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 31, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> If you believe they will get teleported to Madara then it is.


Yeah by ishikki and not teleport themselves.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 31, 2022)

Fused said:


> Imagine comparing a fucking wild unfinished juubi





WorldsStrongest said:


> The point isnt they are equal the point is he has a thing he cant just kill literally chained up and defeated in the basement and that thing just so happens to be exactly what Madara is relaint on for God tier scaling
> 
> Im not asserting Jigens Juubi = Madaras or Madara himself nor do i have to, the point is immortality isnt a concern.
> 
> ...


You and @Raiken both need to learn to not immediately fail at reading and then follow that up with strawmanning people 

Is that a prerequisite to join the madara cult or something?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 31, 2022)

Fused said:


> @WorldsStrongest has already conceded to me,


Not once in your life and its never gonna happen

Reactions: Winner 2


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## MYGod000 (Dec 31, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Yeah by ishikki and not teleport themselves.



Isn't Realm of limbo a different dimension?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 31, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> Isn't Realm of limbo a different dimension?


Like Ive asked every single one of you trolls in this thread and every other when this topic comes up

Show a panel of Madara ever sending his own body to other dimensions with Limbo or drop this terrible argument

Reactions: Like 1


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## Unresponsive (Dec 31, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> Isn't Realm of limbo a different dimension?


I've heard enough, you can't stop before you start the argument of "projecting your shadow=teleporting".

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MYGod000 (Dec 31, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Like Ive asked every single one of you trolls in this thread and every other when this topic comes up
> 
> Show a panel of Madara ever sending his own body to other dimensions with Limbo or drop this terrible argument


My presupposition is that Limbo Exist in another dimension/World Because that what were told in canon. 


Do you disagree that Limbo exist in another space/Time distant from earth?  if so explain why that is wrong.


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## Sparks (Dec 31, 2022)

The binding capability of Isshiki's rods would be significantly stronger than that of Jigen's. Not really any different from comparing Edo Madara's Gedou binding to DRSM Madara. There's literally 3 levels of separation between Jigen and Isshiki. 

Prime Isshiki > Revived Isshiki > Unlimited Code > Jigen

That and Isshiki's rods are the only ones whose binding remained fully intact even after his death.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 31, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> My presupposition is that Limbo Exist in another dimension/World Because that what were told in cano


Thats fantastic but that has nothing to do with what I just asked you


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## MYGod000 (Dec 31, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> I've heard enough, you can't stop before you start the argument of "projecting your shadow=teleporting".


Like I said were told in canon that Realm of Limbo is in a different Space/time.

These are irrefutable facts.  if you have some type of evidence suggest different i'd love for you to present them and explain why Limbo isn't in a different Dimension when were told they are by manga and Author.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 31, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> Like I said were told in canon that Realm of Limbo is in a different Space/time.
> 
> These are irrefutable facts.  if you have some type of evidence suggest different i'd love for you to present them and explain why Limbo isn't in a different Dimension when were told they are by manga and Author.


I have never said it wasn't a different dimension, you're trying to say I said something when I didn't.

I specifically said "you can stop before you start the argument of "projecting your shadow=teleporting". Implying that if you're going to make an argument that using the limbo clones means teleportation, you can stop because it makes no sense.


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## MYGod000 (Dec 31, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats fantastic but that has nothing to do with what I just asked you


We need to establish some form of understanding before we get to your question your asking me. 

Do you agree or disagree that Limbo exist in another Space/Time?   Then i'll get to your question.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 31, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> Do you disagree that Limbo exist in another space/Time distant from earth? if so explain why that is wrong.


Yes I disagree with a dimension "distant" from earth. Because how are limbo clones distant from earth being trapped from the people on earth. It makes no sense and contradicts the manga.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MYGod000 (Dec 31, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> I have never said it wasn't a different dimension, you're trying to say I said something when I didn't.
> 
> I specifically said "you can stop before you start the argument of "projecting your shadow=teleporting". Implying that if you're going to make an argument that using the limbo clones means teleportation, you can stop because it makes no sense.




Okay so we agree Limbo exist in another dimension.  correct?


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## Unresponsive (Dec 31, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> Okay so we agree Limbo exist in another dimension.  correct?


Yes because that's mentioned in the manga.


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## MYGod000 (Dec 31, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Yes I disagree with a dimension "distant" from earth. Because how are limbo clones distant from earth being trapped from the people on earth. It makes no sense and contradicts the manga.



Buddy Naruto Earth Before Hagoromo didn't have a moon...  If we have to question everything that doesn't make sense in Naruto their wouldn't even be a series.

The author States Limbo exist in another plane of existence.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 31, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> Buddy Naruto Earth Before Hagoromo didn't have a moon...  If we have to question everything that doesn't make sense in Naruto their wouldn't even be a series.
> 
> The author States Limbo exist in another plane of existence.


While that doesn't make sense, it's better than the clones somehow being close and harming everyone but is out of this world.
You asked @WorldsStrongest "Do you disagree that Limbo exist in another space/Time distant from earth? "

If the limbo clones are in a dimension distant from earth, why is naruto able to trap them? Why are limbo clones able to get so close to naruto and sasuke to physically come in contact with them?

It literally destroys the thought and statement of it being in a place extremely far away...

Reactions: Informative 1


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## MYGod000 (Dec 31, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Yes because that's mentioned in the manga.



Okay so they exist in a different Dimension...can you explain to me and everyone else how Limbo can attack and touch people from other Dimensions?  because i'm a little confused if you believe they can't traverse a dimension shouldn't they be unable to touch people from other dimensions?


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## MYGod000 (Dec 31, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> You asked @WorldsStrongest "Do you disagree that Limbo exist in another space/Time distant from earth? "
> 
> If the limbo clones are in a dimension distant from earth, why is naruto able to trap them? Why are limbo clones able to get so close to naruto and sasuke to physically come in contact with them?
> 
> It literally destroys the thought and statement of it being in a place extremely far away...



He was ask a silly question Just so i don't misrepresent what he said

"Like Ive asked every single one of you trolls in this thread and every other when this topic comes up

Show a panel of Madara ever sending his own body to other dimensions with Limbo or drop this terrible argument"


The Burden of proof falls on him to prove Madara can't do That since he is the one Arguing it...

Secondly, Kamui Dimension is a sealed Dimension you can only reach it with Kamui.  All of Worldstrongest Arguments is based around show me a Non-existence panel of [insert character here] doing that or concede.  that Leads to less productive debate.


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## Unresponsive (Dec 31, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> Okay so they exist in a different Dimension...can you explain to me and everyone else how Limbo can attack and touch people from other Dimensions?  because i'm a little confused if you believe they can't traverse a dimension shouldn't they be unable to touch people from other dimensions?


It seems like it's a dimension that overlaps with the battlefield.
Kind of like an extremely translucent paper on actual paper, you can't see that paper but it's there.
Like one of these


Maybe it works like a projector. I cannot specifically tell you because it's not explained but of all the information we have we definitely know that it's not so "distant" as it claims it is. All I can do is provide theories to try to make it make sense.

How are these clones able to use an ability that madara doesn't have. It seems like you're implying that they have the ability to teleport in a instant, if this is the case then madara should also have this ability. Why did he have to use his normal speed to take kakashis eye instead of just using this instantaneous teleportation he has. If he used the ability he would've lost the lower half of his body and could've stolen sasuke eyes....

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Unresponsive (Dec 31, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> He was ask a silly question Just so i don't misrepresent what he said
> 
> "Like Ive asked every single one of you trolls in this thread and every other when this topic comes up
> 
> ...


What does this have to do with the argument you replied to.


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## Charisma (Dec 31, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> It seems like it's a dimension that overlaps with the battlefield.
> Kind of like an extremely translucent paper on actual paper, you can't see that paper but it's there.
> Like one of these
> 
> Maybe it works like a projector. I cannot specifically tell you because it's not explained but of all the information we have we definitely know that it's not so "distant" as it claims it is. All I can do is provide theories to try to make it make sense.


It's laid out entirely in the Databook. There's no need to speculate. It's explained as a parallel and distant dimension. A parallel dimension, of course, being connected to our current one. It can best be described with the example of time. Two versions of Earth from different times both occupy the same space, technically, but they cannot ever normally interact with each other. The two are completely separate from their own relative perspective, even though they aren't at a basic level.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Unresponsive (Dec 31, 2022)

Charisma said:


> It's laid out entirely in the Databook. There's no need to speculate. It's explained as a parallel and distant dimension. A parallel dimension, of course, being connected to our current one. It can best be described with the example of time. Two versions of Earth from different times both occupy the same space, technically, but they cannot ever normally interact with each other. The two are completely separate from their own relative perspective, even though they aren't at a basic level.


Then it's basically my first theory but my explained even further.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Charisma (Dec 31, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Then it's basically my first theory but my explained even further.


As for the point of just "projecting", that's entirely dependent on something we can't determine.

Your theory is that Madara projects the Limbo dimension. That he can spawn dimensions whenever he wants. You're saying he just decides to spawn a dimension that overlays the current one when he wishes, and that after some time that dimension is destroyed. So when he gets teleported to another dimension, the shadows and current dimension are destroyed and a new one is projected over the new dimension Madara is in.

Most other people, however, assume that Limbo is an always existing dimension. That Madara doesn't create it, but just projects his clones into it. Or that even if it was dynamic, that teleporting Madara does not automatically destroy the Limbo dimension already made. At that point, teleporting Madara does nothing to the clones, because the clones are still in the Limbo dimension and that dimension is still parallel to the current  one (one Madara was previously in).

That's the difference between our interpretations. Just pointing it out now that you've actually fleshed your thought process out. I don't mean to intervene further.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## MYGod000 (Dec 31, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> What does this have to do with the argument you replied to.



The Kamui dimension was most likely going to be His response by Asking Why Didn't Madara use his S/T to move to Kamui Dimension. Regardless we both Agree Limbo dimension is a Different Dimension that is overlapping Earth.  We don't need to make theories The author already explains it and according to him Limbo is an extremely distant Dimension.


Why Because the Author States it. Their nothing that conflicts with  that information.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 1, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> The Kamui dimension was most likely going to be His response by Asking Why Didn't Madara use his S/T to move to Kamui Dimension. Regardless we both Agree Limbo dimension is a Different Dimension that is overlapping Earth.  We don't need to make theories The author already explains it and according to him Limbo is an extremely distant Dimension.
> 
> 
> Why Because the Author States it. Their nothing that conflicts with  that information.


You tried using the distant statement to claim they could teleport. I still disagree with the distant thing.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 1, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> You tried using the distant statement to claim they could teleport. I still disagree with the distant thing.



You implied The Limbo would be teleported to Madara.

I said if you believe They will traverse 1 dimension to another then you are agreeing it can teleport. 

You also Agree Madara is projecting them from 1 dimension and interacting with another Dimension.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 1, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> You implied The Limbo would be teleported to Madara.
> 
> I said if you believe They will traverse 1 dimension to another then you are agreeing it can teleport.
> 
> You also Agree Madara is projecting them from 1 dimension and interacting with another Dimension.


1.No I did not...

2.You did say that in this 


MYGod000 said:


> The Kamui dimension was most likely going to be His response by Asking Why Didn't Madara use his S/T to move to Kamui Dimension. Regardless we both Agree Limbo dimension is a Different Dimension that is overlapping Earth.  We don't need to make theories The author already explains it and according to him Limbo is an extremely distant Dimension.
> 
> 
> Why Because the Author States it. Their nothing that conflicts with  that information.


3. Yes I agree with that but what does that have to do with them physically teleporting or even moving there in instant speeds?


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## MYGod000 (Jan 1, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> 1.No I did not...


You kinda did you said it would jump to different Space time with Madara if he get BFR. 




Unresponsive said:


> 2.You did say that in this


no I didn't i was responding to you saying Madara's Limbo would return to Madara even if he was sent to another Dimension.




Unresponsive said:


> 3. Yes I agree with that but what does that have to do with them physically teleporting or even moving there in instant speeds?


Idk if it would Be instant but since we are on the topic do you have any evidences that supports That Limbo can't leave one dimension to another if it already doing that and interacting with Earth which is extremely Distant world from Limbo?


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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> The point isnt they are equal


Worthless, meaningless, desperate copium.

This is a VS battle. The point is EXACTLY that they are not equal.

4th War Juubi was stronger than Fat Juubi. Just because Jigen can incapacitate Fat Juubi doesn't mean he can do the same to 4th War Juubi, and most certainly NOT to a Juubi Jinchuuriki like Juudara. False equivaelnce. Your point is debunked.


WorldsStrongest said:


> the point is he has a thing he cant just kill literally chained up and defeated in the basement and that thing just so happens to be exactly what Madara is relaint on for God tier scaling


According to this genius, Edo Hashirama > Juudara:






And this is just the first day of 2023  This is going to be a loooooong year with you, isn't it? We start off with these gems like "Edo Hashirama >>> Juudara because he incapacitated Juubi  "


Zamas-sama, Lord of Lords, give me strength

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

@WorldsStrongest "Hurr durr Madara's Juubi isn't Kaguya   "



Meanwhile, the Manga:






Why do you think Juudara literally turned into Kaguya, genius 



I'm not even gong to accuse you of bad reading comprehension, because you haven't read anything in the first place

Reactions: Winner 2 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 2


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## Raiken (Jan 1, 2023)

Fused said:


> @WorldsStrongest "Hurr durr Madara's Juubi isn't Kaguya   "
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, literally stated on panel that that Juubi IS Kaguya. Though I'm reasonably sure @WorldsStrongest will find someway to cherry-pick around this.

We are specifically informed about the mecahnics of Juubi / Shinju Evolution in Boruto...

It starts out as the smaller normal Bijuu sized Seedling Juubi. That when it absorbs some Ootsutsuki Chakra or something, it turns into a Shinju.

That Shinju then absorbs Chakra from the planet.

Said Shinju increases in size & power until it produces that Planets Chakra Fruit.

Kaguya then ate Earth's Shinju Chakra Fruit originally meant for Isshiki. Became incredibly powerful, and *then proceeded to years later, merge with that Shinju, which yielded the Ootsutsuki Juubi form, what we know from the WA as the 2nd Form Juubi. That form represents the merger of Kaguya with the Juubi / Shinju.*

Here's a Chart I made a a year or so ago that roughly shows Kaguya's Lineage.

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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Yep, literally stated on panel that that Juubi IS Kaguya. Though I'm reasonably sure @WorldsStrongest will find someway to cherry-pick around this.
> 
> We are specifically informed about the mecahnics of Juubi / Shinju Evolution in Boruto...
> 
> ...




You solo'd this thread, bravo. 

Thread can be closed now honestly, you've explained everything in a concise and clear way.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## TheNirou (Jan 1, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Yep, literally stated on panel that that Juubi IS Kaguya. Though I'm reasonably sure @WorldsStrongest will find someway to cherry-pick around this.
> 
> We are specifically informed about the mecahnics of Juubi / Shinju Evolution in Boruto...
> 
> ...


Very good chart, that's well explained!

Technically, Obito and Madara's juubi are the same that brothers fought in terms of strength. 
The lacks of Hachibi and Kyubi's chakra was just troublesome for making Infinite tsukuyomi by using Shinju in Obito's case. In terms of power it should be the same since Juubi evolved two times by absorbing natural energy, it should probably fill the lack of Hachibi/Kyubi's chakra.

Do you have any explanation about Obito's shinju that came out of his body ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Raiken (Jan 1, 2023)

TheNirou said:


> Very good chart, that's well explained!


Thanks. 


TheNirou said:


> Technically, Obito and Madara's juubi are the same that brothers fought in terms of strength.


The same Form of Juubi yeah. 

As far as raw power/chakra goes though, It's hard to say as this is the subject of another debate depending on how the mechanics of the Juubi work.

Personally I still believe the Juubi that Hagaromo & Hamura fought had more raw Chakra than the Juubi that Madara had, and definitely more than what Obito's Juubi had.


TheNirou said:


> The lacks of Hachibi and Kyubi's chakra was just troublesome for making Infinite tsukuyomi by using Shinju in Obito's case. In terms of power it should be the same since Juubi evolved two times by absorbing natural energy, it should probably fill the lack of Hachibi/Kyubi's chakra.


I think what Obito was saying is that even though it lacked 8 & 9, it would still be enough, and he would still be able to achieve Infinite Tsukuyomi. Though the raw Chakra/Power that Juubi possessed was likely a bit lower than what Madara's Juubi had, imo.

Basically: Prime Juubi > Madara's Juubi > Obito's 2nd Form Juubi

However the point is that the Juubi's Madara & Obito had,* was Kaguya*, give or take some amounts of Chakra.

WS was comparing it to the Basic Seedling Juubi from Boruto, which is at the start of the Juubi Evoluition, as though they were comparable. Which they are not.


TheNirou said:


> Do you have any explanation about Obito's shinju that came out of his body ?


It's hard to say for certain. Well the Ootsutsuki Juubi is special, it's evolved beyond it's initial Seedling Juubi/Shinju state.

It's possible that the Ootsutsuki Juubi(Kaguya), can use the Shinju once again essentially as a Jutsu. Partitioning it's power/self. It's also my opinion that this act weakened JJ Obito a reasonable chunk.

However that Shinju went on to absorb a load of Chakra from the Shinobi Alliance and was probably absorbing Natural Energy from the Planet as well. In an attempt to perform Infinite Tsukuyomi.

Then after that failed, Madara re-absorbed that 'Partition' back into himself with a decent chunk more Chakra than it had when Obito first created it.

Which lead to the Juubi increasing in power even further to a level even Hagaromo didn't have, possibly giving Kaguya(The Juubi) a little more influence over the Jinchuuriki.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Perfect Susano (Jan 1, 2023)

There is no difference between the Juubi that Hagoromo fought, the one that Obito became the Jin of and the one that Madara became the Jin of. Whatever chakra it was missing in Biju chakra was compensated by natural energy. The only time this became a real issue was with the Shinju. However the fact that the Juubi could evolve into a superior form means that it was at max strength.

1st Form Juubi(War): 500 Biju chakra+1,500 natural energy 

Final form Juubi chakra level: 5,000
Final form Juubi(Past): 1,000 Biju chakra+4,000 natural energy
Final form Juubi(War): 500 Biju chakra+4,500 natural energy   


Shinju(Past): 1,000 Biju chakra+7,000 natural energy
Shinju(War): 500 Biju chakra+7,000 natural energy       
Bloom energy: 8,000

Obviously the specific numbers don't matter here, but this is obviously the general idea of what the deal is with the Juubi's strength. There aren't 15 different versions of the Juubi.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 1, 2023)

Btw Isshiki one shots both of them, try to stay on topic zoomers

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

Fused said:


> @WorldsStrongest "Hurr durr Madara's Juubi isn't Kaguya   "
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Raiken said:


> Yep, literally stated on panel that that Juubi IS Kaguya. Though I'm reasonably sure @WorldsStrongest will find someway to cherry-pick around this.
> 
> We are specifically informed about the mecahnics of Juubi / Shinju Evolution in Boruto...
> 
> ...


You are both out to lunch and as always misunderstanding of very basic shit

Madaras Juubi isnt always Kaguya because the Juubi was at one point Kaguya.

The Juubi once again becomes Kaguya in the war, sure, concur, agreed.

And when that happens Madara literally fucking explodes

Read the manga foe a change kiddos


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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> You are both out to lunch and as always misunderstanding of very basic shit
> 
> Madaras Juubi isnt always Kaguya because the Juubi was at one point Kaguya.
> 
> ...



The Juubi didn't become Kaguya. Madara did. Reading comprehension mistake #1.

Madara became the Juubi because he recombined in his body all the "pieces of Kaguya"; namely Ten Tails (including the Divine Tree, the Gedo Mazo, and all 9 Tailed Beasts) and the Rinnegan (Hagoromo's chakra). Three-Eyed Juudara is equal to Kaguya as he possess all of her "pieces". Reading comprehension mistake #2.

Madara didn't explode, the exact opposite happened  He shrunk and turned into Kaguya  And this happened because Black Zetsu took over Madara's body and forced him to absorb all the chakra from all over the world.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

Fused said:


> The Juubi didn't become Kaguya. Madara did. Reading comprehension mistake #1.


Thats really quite semantic considering the Juubi is literally sealed in Madara 


Fused said:


> body all the "pieces of Kaguya"


concession accepted the Juubi isnt Kaguya the whole time 

You played yourself

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats really quite semantic considering the Juubi is literally sealed in Madara


It's not semantic.

It proves that Madara had become just like Kaguya. Had become a vessel worthy enough for Kaguya to manifest in. And it proves that Madara collected all the pieces of her chakra.


WorldsStrongest said:


> concession accepted the Juubi isnt Kaguya the whole time


A joke?  

Kaguya and the Juubi are one and the same. The Juubi is also a piece of Kaguya.

Just like you and your hand are one and the same, and the hand is also a piece of you.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

Fused said:


> It's not semantic.


Its incredibly semantic 

And you conceded this debate the second you stated Madara had to recollect several different pieces of Kaguya outside of the Juubi to bring Kaguya back

Not humoring you any further when you already admitted you lost bud

You wanna debate something else on the topic tho, like for example your terrible Limbo BFR headcanon, we can do that.

Just waiting on you to drop a single panel anywhere in the series of Madaras real body travelling dimensions with it, and Ill concede.

Asked you for this like 7 times now, beginning to think you dont have the citation and your argument is entirely shit tier headcanon if Im bein honest


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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And you conceded this debate the second you stated Madara had to recollect several different pieces of Kaguya outside of the Juubi to bring Kaguya back


The Juubi is literally a part of Kaguya, just like your hand is a part of you, it doesn't change the fact that the Juubi and Kaguya have the same identity, as part of the same body, just like you and your hand have the same identity, as part of the same body. Literally how do you misunderstand even this simple point

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

Fused said:


> The Juubi is literally a part of Kaguya


Concession accepted yet again

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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

This shit is way too easy @Fused youre just rolling over and letting me take it from you at this point


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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Concession accepted yet again


Such bad reading comprehension. The mods gave you plenty of time to read the manga like the rest of us, and you still shirked your responsibilities.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

Fused said:


> Such bad reading comprehension.


From you? 100%.

Cant even read well enough to see you’re burying yourself


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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> From you? 100%.
> 
> Cant even read well enough to see you’re burying yourself


Bro, you're literally saying that Juubi being a piece of Kaguya means that Juubi and Kaguya aren't the same thing.

You're literally arguing that your hand and you are not the same thing.

This is how desperate you've gotten, you're denying basic English and the simplest logic imaginable. You're denying that Juubi being a piece of Kaguya also means that Juubi and Kaguya are the same thing.

It's sad how you decided to start the new year with this shameless trolling, it's very sad.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## TheNirou (Jan 1, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Thanks.
> 
> The same Form of Juubi yeah.
> 
> ...


That's understable. I always considered Obito's 3rd form Juubi as on par with Hagoromo's Juubi in terms of strength since this is the same form and according to the QG, Juubi gains more power after evolving. 

Madara's Juubi came out in his 3rd form which indicates it was ready to became his Jinchuuriki, If this wasn't the case, Madara would have waited until Juubi was at his full power. 

At worst Hagoromo's juubi is slightly above Madara's which is slightly above Obito's but these Juubi are pretty much relative imo.

WA Juubi is Kaguya yeah, it's literally stated by Zetsu, dunno why a lot of people are denying this fact...


Raiken said:


> WS was comparing it to the Basic Seedling Juubi from Boruto, which is at the start of the Juubi Evoluition, as though they were comparable. Which they are not.


I agree with you, comparing the basic seedling Juubi from Boruto to the one that fought the entire shinobi alliance is dishonest. Even Amado states that Jigen's juubi is a different specimen than the one in war arc.


Raiken said:


> It's hard to say for certain. Well the Ootsutsuki Juubi is special, it's evolved beyond it's initial Seedling Juubi/Shinju state.
> 
> It's possible that the Ootsutsuki Juubi(Kaguya), can use the Shinju once again essentially as a Jutsu. Partitioning it's power/self. It's also my opinion that this act weakened JJ Obito a reasonable chunk.
> 
> ...


That's a good and consistent explanation. 
Imo Obito partioned a part of Juubi with banbutsu sozo or a similar application of Inyoton instead of searching Madara's other eye and awakened the rinne sharingan.

I think the rinne sharingan and IT were needed to revive Kaguya since Zetsu wrote these elements in the uchiha's stones, I feel Obito's alternative way to activate Infinite Tsukuyomi isn't a method to revive Kaguya.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

@Fused original premise: The Juubi was 100% Kaguya the entire time

My premise: The Juubi does eventually become Kaguya in the war, but is not always Kaguya

@Fused after 1 post of scrutiny: Madara eventually BECOMES Kaguya, Kaguya wasnt the Juubi the whole time


Fused said:


> The Juubi didn't become Kaguya. Madara did


@Fused after merely 2 posts of scrutiny: Madara, in order to become Kaguya, is first forced to regain several independent pieces of her and recombine them into one, again admitting it wasnt Kaguya the whole time


Fused said:


> because he recombined in his body all the "pieces of Kaguya"





Fused said:


> Madara collected all the pieces of her chakra.


Fused after 3 posts of scrutiny: The Juubi is merely a single fragment of Kaguya


Fused said:


> The Juubi is literally a part of Kaguya


GG Kiddo

You lost

As always

Your goalpost shifts dont hide that


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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> @Fused original premise: The Juubi was 100% Kaguya the entire time


This is what the Manga states, Yes.


WorldsStrongest said:


> My premise: The Juubi does eventually become Kaguya in the war, but is not always Kaguya


This is wrong. Kaguya was speaking to Madara through the Divine Tree, which was a fraction of Juubi that Juubito expelled from his body and forced into its Divine Tree form.

Pay attention to the Story.


WorldsStrongest said:


> @Fused after 1 post of scrutiny: Madara eventually BECOMES Kaguya, Kaguya wasnt the Juubi the whole time


Kaguya was the Juubi, this is an undeniable fact.

For Kaguya to come back, the power of Rinnegan was also needed, because the Rinnegan was the power of the Eye that her child Hagoromo inherited from her and then Indra inherited from Hagoromo.

Basic story understanding and also BZ literally tells you he also needed the Rinnegan to bring out Kaguya.


WorldsStrongest said:


> @Fused after merely 2 posts of scrutiny: Madara, in order to become Kaguya, is first forced to regain several independent pieces of her and recombine them into one, again admitting it wasnt Kaguya the whole time


Except that those pieces are Ten Tails, Divine Tree (another form of Ten Tails), Gedo mazo (the corpse of Ten Tails), the 9 Tailed Beasts (fractions of Ten Tails), and the Rinnegan (fractions of Kaguya who is also Ten Tails )   

Read the manga kid, this ain't it 


WorldsStrongest said:


> Fused after 3 posts of scrutiny: The Juubi is merely a single fragment of Kaguya


Which doesn't mean that Kaguya and the Juubi are different, concession accepted.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

Fused said:


> This is what the Manga states, Yes.
> 
> This is wrong. Kaguya was speaking to Madara through the Divine Tree, which was a fraction of Juubi that Juubito expelled from his body and forced into its Divine Tree form.
> 
> ...



Ya lost and conceded multiple times fused

Not my fault youre too obtuse to see how you contradict yourself on a point by point basis


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

Fused said:


> Three-Eyed Juudara is equal to Kaguya


Also just caught this

What fucking garbage  





HURR DURR LOOK GUYZ

LOOK HOW EQUAL THEY ARE

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Also just caught this
> 
> What fucking garbage
> 
> ...


Really? Again with this nonsense that was debunked ages ago?  


Having greater chakra =/= being stronger, unless you think that Baby Nagato solo's the Hidden Leaf due to his greater chakra.


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## Ludi (Jan 1, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Here's a Chart I made a a year or so ago that roughly shows Kaguya's Lineage.


Ah great. I didn't know you also recognise the fact that what Hagoromo and Hamura was fighting was Juubimode Kaguya and this entity being > the Juubi madara received. Good to know, thought you were on the side that denies that fact

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Also just caught this
> 
> What fucking garbage
> 
> ...



The Juubi/Divine Tree has always been Kaguya.


You said Juubi/Divine Tree is not always kaguya explain how that works.  When was it Stated Juubi isn't always Kaguya what chapter?

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> The Juubi/Divine Tree has always been Kaguya.
> 
> 
> You said Juubi/Divine Tree is not always kaguya explain how that works.  When was it Stated Juubi isn't always Kaguya what chapter?


Don't bother, I already gave him that scan, he doesn't want to listen. He's a stonewaller, intellectually-dishonest person and nothing more. He was given a chapter literally stating that Juubi and Kaguya are the same thing and he's still desperately trying to argue "ERHM BUT NO GUYZ THEY ARE NOT THE SAME!!!"

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Raiken (Jan 1, 2023)

Ludi said:


> Ah great. I didn't know you also recognise the fact that what Hagoromo and Hamura was fighting was Juubimode Kaguya and this entity being > the Juubi madara received. Good to know, thought you were on the side that denies that fact


The WA Juubi is also Juubi Kaguya. Just during the WA she can't be Reborn without a Jinchuuriki Host & Black Zetsu's Will being injected into said Host.

It's still Kaguya though.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

Raiken said:


> The WA Juubi is also Juubi Kaguya.


 

WA Juubi = Pre War Kaguya > War Kaguya >>> 3 Eyed Madara > 2 Eyed > Post Shinju > 1 Eyed > Juubito > Berserk Juubito >>> WA Juubi

Yep

makes perfect sense  

Madara stans man...In EVERY thread...Cannot make this shit up


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## Ludi (Jan 1, 2023)

Raiken said:


> The WA Juubi is also Juubi Kaguya. Just during the WA she can't be Reborn without a Jinchuuriki Host & Black Zetsu's Will being injected into said Host.
> 
> It's still Kaguya though.



P1 Naruto and RSM Naruto are both Naruto, but obviously not equal.

So you agree that restored Kaguya as well as the Kaguya that was fighting Hagoromo and Hamura both are stronger than the entity that Madara gained as Juubi. At least that's what your graph says. That's all that matters to me.

If you want call multiple different things the same name that's fine, as long as you don't completely equalise them at the same time, as they are still different.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

Fused said:


> Really? Again with this nonsense that was debunked ages ago?


Oh really?

You debunked that Kaguya is so astronomically above Madara that he fucking exploded when her farts touched him?

Where?

Link the thread plz


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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> War Kaguya >>> 3 Eyed Madara


Maybe you should stop acting like this is stated anywhere at all in the Manga.

The only time the two are compared, it's only stated that Kaguya has greater chakra than Madara, which doesn't mean anything. There are many examples of a fighter losing against an opponent with lower chakra.



> You debunked that Kaguya is so astronomically above Madara that he fucking exploded when her farts touched him?



Last I checked, he didn't explode, and his body was still intact at the end


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> The Juubi/Divine Tree has always been Kaguya.


Nope

She literally predates it

All O clan members do

Yall Madara stans really do be having a complete dogshit comprehension of this series lore man

Suggest yall take like a year off the forums and do a deep dive of the series again and without the rose tinted glasses this time


MYGod000 said:


> You said Juubi/Divine Tree is not always kaguya explain how that works.


Very simple

1. Kaguya and Isshiki come to earth
2. They make a Shinju and Kaguya eats its fruit

Where is Kishimoto losing you


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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> 2. They make a Shinju and Kaguya eats its fruit


AND THEN, AT THIS POINT, SHE AND THE JUUBI MERGED INTO ONE ENTITY, AS BLACK ZETSU IS TELLING YOU, AND THEY ARE THE SAME MERGED BEING WHEN THEY FIGHT HAGOROMO, WHEN THEY FIGHT THE SHINOBI ALLIANCE, AND WHEN THEY GET ABSORBED BY OBITO/MADARA, AND THIS IS ALSO WHY KAGUYA TURNS INTO A CRAZY BEAST WHEN SHE'S UNSTABLE.

How is it possible that a grown man can't understand this simple elementary logic

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

Fused said:


> AND THEN, AT THIS POINT, SHE AND THE JUUBI MERGED INTO ONE ENTITY


As a Jin, and then she and the Juubi become separate entirely again very soon afterwords 

They are not literally the same thing

Just like how Obito and Madara and Hagoromo are all Jins yet not literally the fucking Juubi itself

Yall are wild if you keep whiffing this very basic concept


Fused said:


> AS BLACK ZETSU IS TELLING YOU


Funny cuz Zetsu is also directly telling you can lose pieces of her power entirely in that scan and you seem to be entirely ignoring this

Odd


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## MYGod000 (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Nope
> 
> She literally predates it
> 
> All O clan members do



From the Time after she fought Hagoromo all the way into the War Kaguya is The Juubi. 


WorldsStrongest said:


> Yall Madara stans really do be having a complete dogshit comprehension of this series lore man
> 
> Suggest yall take like a year off the forums and do a deep dive of the series again and without the rose tinted glasses this time



Or you just misrepresenting what we are actually talking about.  Were not talking about Kaguya Before she came to Earth...we are talking about Kaguya that Post Hagoromo fight. 


WorldsStrongest said:


> Very simple
> 
> 1. Kaguya and Isshiki come to earth
> 2. They make a Shinju and Kaguya eats its fruit
> ...



That nice.


After all that she still Became The Juubi Post Hagoromo fighting her.  Kishimoto didn't lose me buddy. It like saying At one time Isshiki wasn't Always Jigen until After Kaguya basically killed him and from then on out Jigen was Isshiki.


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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> As a Jin


This is not what Black Zetsu says.

The Jinchuuriki and the Tailed Beast are not the same entity and no one ever equates the two. No one says that Naruto is Kurama. No one says that Madara is the Juubi. 

But BZ does say that Kaguya is the Juubi.

Terrible reading comprehension.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Funny cuz Zetsu is also directly telling you can lose pieces of her power entirely in that scan and you seem to be entirely ignoring this


We didn't ignore this, but it is an irrelevant observation to make.

Yes, Kaguya dispersed her chakra between her two children, but Madara regained that chakra into himself when he awakened the Rinnegan, the derivative of Hagoromo's chakra.

This is an irrelevant observation to make that doesn't really led anywhere.


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## Raiken (Jan 1, 2023)

Ludi said:


> P1 Naruto and RSM Naruto are both Naruto, but obviously not equal.
> 
> So you agree that restored Kaguya as well as the Kaguya that was fighting Hagoromo and Hamura both are stronger than the entity that Madara gained as Juubi. At least that's what your graph says. That's all that matters to me.
> 
> If you want call multiple different things the same name that's fine, as long as you don't completely equalise them at the same time, as they are still different.


Yeah I agree, imo the Juubi that Hagaromo & Hamura fought is the most powerful version. But in comparison to the Juubi Madara was the Jinchuuriki of, the difference isn't massive.

The gap between Obito's & Madara's is probably comparable to the gap between Madara's & Hagaromo's.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

Fused said:


> This is not what Black Zetsu says.


Thats exactly what happened

Doesnt matter if Zetsu said it

Kaguya and the Juubi are not literally the same thing

She predates it

Yall are fucking wild 


Fused said:


> We didn't ignore this


You are ignoring it on a post by post basis and continuing to ignore it right now


MYGod000 said:


> From the Time after she fought Hagoromo all the way into the War Kaguya is The Juubi


Nope

From the time she eats the fruit to the time Hagoromo defeats her, she is fused with it sure.

Then after that she is separated from it


MYGod000 said:


> Or you just misrepresenting what we are actually talking about. Were not talking about Kaguya Before she came to Earth


I dont give a darn what youre talking about troll

Your stance is literally "Kaguya IS The Juubi always and forever"

And youre wrong 

Shes a fucking completely seperate entity that happens to eventually fuse with the Juubi, then become seperated from it, then fuse with it again

They are not interwoven like your inane headcanon to justify your absurd scaling needs to buy 

Suggesting Kaguya and the Juubi are always the same thing is like you suggesting Madara and the Juubi are always the same thing even tho the Juubi predates him  

Yall are wild


MYGod000 said:


> Kishimoto didn't lose me buddy.


He very much so did if youre gonna continue to assert this kind of shit


WorldsStrongest said:


> WA Juubi = Pre War Kaguya > War Kaguya >>> 3 Eyed Madara > 2 Eyed > Post Shinju > 1 Eyed > Juubito > Berserk Juubito >>> WA Juubi


Do you troll

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Perfect Susano (Jan 1, 2023)

Fatebro fans derailing a thread once again with arguments completely unstated in the story that make no logical sense.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Ludi (Jan 1, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Yeah I agree, imo the Juubi that Hagaromo & Hamura fought is the most powerful version.


That's all I needed to know.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Yeah I agree, imo the Juubi that Hagaromo & Hamura fought is the most powerful version.


Huh

An actually logical and fair and accurate assessment 

Kudos

Reactions: Agree 4 | Informative 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats exactly what happened
> 
> Doesnt matter if Zetsu said it
> 
> ...


The Manga insinuates that Hagoromo might have fought Kaguya and the Juubi.  Their are manga panels With Kaguya remembering Hagoromo with TSO sealing her...then there are manga panels with Hagoromo fighting The Juubi. 

My stance here is Kaguya at some undefined  Time From when she Killed Isshiki to the 4th War was The juubi.

When Hagoromo fought the Juubi and Kaguya is up to you but it implied He fought them  separately at some point in the past. 

She wasn't Fused with the Ten tails it was more like her Vessel. 


Hagoromo Statement saying the Juubi was on a Rampage. It was a Wild Juubi not controlled.


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## Fused (Jan 1, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Doesnt matter if Zetsu said it


You're denying the Authorial statement.

Concession accepted.

This guy is literally denying what's literally written on the page.

Concession accepted.


WorldsStrongest said:


> She predates it


And then she merged with it, and they became the same entity.

It's not rocket science.

This guy with a DBZ avatar can't grasp the simple fact that two beings merged at one point and became the same entity, the irony here that a DBZ watcher can't grasp this.

Reactions: Lewd 2 | Dislike 2


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## MYGod000 (Jan 1, 2023)

People are really Insulting their Own intelligence Saying The Ten tails Hagoromo and Hamura Fought=BM Kaguya that Fought Naruto and Sasuke. 

They don't look the same which is irrefutable fact.

They don't have the Same Abilities otherwise Ten tails in the past would have used I.T(Which is spammable  jutsu) revert back to humanoid form...which it didn't. 

That is irrefutable. 

We have canon that showed Kaguya was only able to  be restored after Ten tails+ planet level of chakra around the world was absorbed Showing the Massive Difference in power between Kaguya and the Ten tails. 

 Hagoromo and Hamura Still Struggled in a life and death battle  with the Ten tails. Taking away 50% of the 9 tails chakra from that Ten tails wouldn't make much of a difference Base Hagoromo would still struggle and would still need his brothers help to beat it. 

Now back to Main topic.  people have given arguments for How Isshiki would punch and Kick Madara, but they haven't said any note worthy arguments of how he would overpower Madara's Immortality and High speed Regeneration. BFR requires Him to Be up close like he was against Naruto when he was Jigen and that would put him line of Fire of Limbo striking him.

Rods can be countered with Limbo and Seen using Rinne-Sharingan Same with his Shrinking abilities. It not like Madara hasn't dealt with overwhelming Strength and speed before as he fought 8th Gate Gai and outlasted him speed blitzing him and Punch him and nearly killing him when he wasn't Immortal.  Madara outlast Isshiki until he dies and uses Limbo on him to counter strike him and off guard him.


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 1, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> People are really Insulting their Own intelligence Saying The Ten tails Hagoromo and Hamura Fought=BM Kaguya that Fought Naruto and Sasuke.
> 
> They don't look the same which is irrefutable fact.
> 
> ...


Theres a reason no is is responding to you


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 1, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Theres a reason no is is responding to you



Until you

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 1, 2023)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Until you

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 2, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Theres a reason no is is responding to you


Because they can't Refute my argument. you just responded to me to prove my point you can't refute what i'm saying so why reply to me contradicting yourself.

I already explained Isshiki isn't Beating Madara with Brute Strength 8th Gai Guy already tried that and couldn't kill him. 
So what makes you and everything else thing Isshiki is going to beat Immortal Madara with brute Strength?  


 Madara outlast Isshiki Strength and Isshiki dies like Naruto and Sasuke did to him in canon.


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## Kras Lee (Jan 2, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> I already explained Isshiki isn't Beating Madara with Brute Strength 8th Gai Guy already tried that and couldn't kill him.


b but.. attack potency and destructive capacity

attack potency focuses hits to dmg the target rather than doing aoe which is destructive capacity BUT might guy also did attack potency with night guy and to this date is still the strongest physical hit and no one even comes close to rival it.


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## blk (Jan 2, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> Where you get the idea he doesn't have good regeneration when we see inferior JJ Obito regenerate half his erased body from TSO explosion?  Shinra Tensei exist which would get around Tons of Black Rods.



I said the opposite tho?

Anyway Madara doesn't have / doesn't use ST for whatever reason.

Second, enough black rods would block him from using chakra in the first place like the Juubi Isshiki's dimension.



MYGod000 said:


> when he is shrink Isshiki is at risk of being killed in one attack Jigen was almost one shotted by Sasuke while he was shrink and absorbing a jutsu.
> 
> I didn't say he would be able to constantly dodge him that unrealistic just like you saying Isshiki would steam roll his way over two individuals who are far more powerful, More durable, More stamina, and more chakra than Adult Naruto.
> 
> ...



When Isshiki shrinks he's incredibly fast, good luck hitting such a fast, small and flying target.
Fate Bros could almost hit him that time because they forced him to stay put to absorb massive Rasengan, and even then he was able to avoid Sasuke's sword at close range with S/T.
So not sure how that helps your argument, those feats just show his S/T can be used as a strong defensive ability as well.


Second, you are wrong about Isshiki being only able to dodge when microscopic. He can still use the offensive mechanism of his Jutsu like putting microscopic rods (and then enlarge them) in the enemy's body.
Also in the enemy's eyes (goodbye Rinnegan), see the fight with Kashin Koji for example.

And shrinking makes him a nightmare to fight in cqc as well.


Jigen and Isshiki are literally the same person but in a different body, what are you smoking lol. If it's in character for Jigen to do something then BY DEFINITION it's in character for Isshiki as well.
The reason why Isshiki didn't use Space-Time abilities in his last battle against Fate Bros & Boruto was stated, and it's because they would have been able to follow him / change the battlefield again anyway (since both Boruto and Sasuke had S/T), so it was better to just end it here and there.


Limbo cannot do anything to prevent S/T BFR, don't know what you are talking about.


Reality is they have no counter to an advanced Space-Time user like Isshiki and that's all there is to it. He can send them to space and that's GG.

Or can just send Madara away while kicking the fck out of Juubito to destabilize him out of his Jinchuriki status.

Then go back to Madara and either do the same to him, or stuck his ass with tons of black rods and seal him.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## MYGod000 (Jan 2, 2023)

blk said:


> I said the opposite tho?
> 
> Anyway Madara doesn't have / doesn't use ST for whatever reason.
> 
> Second, enough black rods would block him from using chakra in the first place like the Juubi Isshiki's dimension.



You act as if Madara can't stop those rods.


This makes Those rods useless as well as Isshiki Attempt at Hand to hand Combat against Madara useless. 

If were being honest here and not Disingenuous Madara also has Rods he can put inside Isshiki. 



blk said:


> When Isshiki shrinks he's incredibly fast, good luck hitting such a fast, small and flying target.
> Fate Bros could almost hit him that time because they forced him to stay put to absorb massive Rasengan, and even then he was able to avoid Sasuke's sword at close range with S/T.
> So not sure how that helps your argument, those feats just show his S/T can be used as a strong defensive ability as well.



He doesn't need luck To hit him all he needs is one jutsu.


He can Manipulate the Gravity to pull Isshiki Towards him and Crush him inside his hands.  No, Isshiki would not be able to over power that their is a Good chance that would just simple One shot Isshiki Since Jigen who is above Naruto and Sasuke was almost killed after shrinking and trying to absorb jutsu while he was shrunk himself.

Isshiki Doesn't have the same Strength when he is shrinking otherwise he could have Destroyed Naruto and Sasuke Avatar as Jigen when he was shrinking. 


blk said:


> Second, you are wrong about Isshiki being only able to dodge when microscopic. He can still use the offensive mechanism of his Jutsu like putting microscopic rods (and then enlarge them) in the enemy's body.
> Also in the enemy's eyes (goodbye Rinnegan), see the fight with Kashin Koji for example.



Madara would see those Rods with Rinne-Sharingan Just like Sasuke did with His Tomoe Rinnegan.  As i showed you above He can make those Rods useless  with Shinra Tensei. 


blk said:


> And shrinking makes him a nightmare to fight in cqc as well.
> 
> 
> Jigen and Isshiki are literally the same person but in a different body, what are you smoking lol. If it's in character for Jigen to do something then BY DEFINITION it's in character for Isshiki as well.
> The reason why Isshiki didn't use Space-Time abilities in his last battle against Fate Bros & Boruto was stated, and it's because they would have been able to follow him / change the battlefield again anyway (since both Boruto and Sasuke had S/T), so it was better to just end it here and there.



I never said He couldn't use Jigen Abilities.  However, Isshiki can't use Karma seal to absorb jutsu otherwise he wouldn't have needed to shrink Kojin chakra Fire he created. He could have just Absorbed Kojin Giant Rasengan.


I agree Isshiki can use Jigen shrinking and S/T abiliies...but he can't use Every Abilities of Jigen  otherwise Their would have been noo need for him to dodge Naruto and sasuke Jutsu if he could just Absorb them. 

Madara has Gravity manipulation Thank to Rinnegan he could literally pull Isshiki towards him and just crush him in his hands or Hit him with Shinra Tensei.  Shrinking would actually be a Horrible move to use against Someone with Rinnegan as they could just take advantage of him being Small and pull him towards them with Gravity and Crush him in his hands. Almost like Sasuke Took Advantage of Jigen being Small and almost killed him with his sword which is why Jigen Ran away from that. 



I seen his abilities Similar to Ant man where he uses His shrinking to avoid attacks but he doesn't have the same Strength while he is shrinking otherwise he would just fight Naruto and Sasuke while Shrinking and make it harder for them to hit him while he just continues to punch and kick them. 


blk said:


> Limbo cannot do anything to prevent S/T BFR, don't know what you are talking about.



 He can Switch places with Limbo like He did before when he was caught in a Jutsu he switched places with Limbo. 

are you going to tell me Madara isn't going to be able to React even though We see Naruto and Everyone else Reacting to These S/T abilities even Isshiki Reacted to S/T.

Since it made by Chakra Madara could just Absorb it with preta path. unless you're going to tell me Madara preta Path Can't interact with S/T but it can interact with Madara.  Which makes no sense.


blk said:


> Reality is they have no counter to an advanced Space-Time user like Isshiki and that's all there is to it. He can send them to space and that's GG.



It's not really advance Space-Time because for one He needs to be up close to do it. Advance Space-Time or what i would consider advance Space-Time is Kaguya Ameno which Drags you into space time Against your Will even if you're Hundreds of feet away. 

Isshiki has not shown that type of Space time abilities. 


blk said:


> Or can just send Madara away while kicking the fck out of Juubito to destabilize him out of his Jinchuriki status.



You haven't explained how he would Destabilize him and why it didn't work against Naruto who is implied to Be like Juubi Jin.


blk said:


> Then go back to Madara and either do the same to him, or stuck his ass with tons of black rods and seal him.


Again...how you have to give me some type of Explanation on how this destabilizing kicks of Isshiki works and why it didn't work against Naruto. It would have saved him alot of Trouble if he could just Kick the 9 tails out of Naruto killing him in the process. Isshiki hasn't even shown he can Remove Juubi From someone otherwise he would have just Removed the 9 tails from Naruto.

Isshiki literally said it would take too much work to Kill the Him and the 9 tails.  Again this is Isshiki using Jigen body and speaking through Jigen...saying.  If he could just remove The ten tails from Obito and Madara then why wouldn't he do it against Naruto? instead he opted to seal him away. which goes against your argument of him just kicking everyone and destabilizing them.  No he not going to be able to do that he has never shown any ability to allow him to remove a bijuu from someone body. 

Madara outlast Isshiki.

Reactions: Optimistic 3


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## MYGod000 (Jan 2, 2023)

Kras Lee said:


> b but.. attack potency and destructive capacity
> 
> attack potency focuses hits to dmg the target rather than doing aoe which is destructive capacity BUT might guy also did attack potency with night guy and to this date is still the strongest physical hit and no one even comes close to rival it.


I agree with that.

It still didn't Kill Madara but it came close and that was before Madara had DR or Rinne-Sharingan and Was immortal so i don't know how they expect Isshiki to kill him with brute force when Madara is literally immortal. Brute Force isn't going to work that well for him he would just be wasting time at that point. He better off trying to seal Madara away instead of go blow for blow.


It would be like Kratos vs Baldur. Kratos can do whatever he wants to Baldur but until he gets out his hax of not feeling any pain he is fighting a losing battle and will eventually get tired out and Lose.


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## blk (Jan 3, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> You act as if Madara can't stop those rods.
> 
> 
> This makes Those rods useless as well as Isshiki Attempt at Hand to hand Combat against Madara useless.
> ...



Exactly, he can't.

Since neither Naruto nor Sasuke could really perceive them, we have no reason to believe Madara can.

ST is good and all but that's only only useful if he can use it before getting tagged.

Madara's black rods are shrinked into nothingness instantly and turned against him, they are non factors (like all other Jutsus susceptible to shrinking, including TSBs etc).



MYGod000 said:


> He doesn't need luck To hit him all he needs is one jutsu.
> 
> 
> He can Manipulate the Gravity to pull Isshiki Towards him and Crush him inside his hands.  No, Isshiki would not be able to over power that their is a Good chance that would just simple One shot Isshiki Since Jigen who is above Naruto and Sasuke was almost killed after shrinking and trying to absorb jutsu while he was shrunk himself.
> ...



Or ya know he could simply just turn back into normal size or teleport away lol



MYGod000 said:


> I never said He couldn't use Jigen Abilities.  However, Isshiki can't use Karma seal to absorb jutsu otherwise he wouldn't have needed to shrink Kojin chakra Fire he created. He could have just Absorbed Kojin Giant Rasengan.



The hell? Of course he has absorption, this is 100% headcanon.

And btw if Isshiki doesn't have absorption because he didn't use it when it could have been useful, then by the same logic Madara doesn't have a fckton of Jutsu (including the ones we are discussing, like ST, BT, etc).



MYGod000 said:


> I agree Isshiki can use Jigen shrinking and S/T abiliies...but he can't use Every Abilities of Jigen  otherwise Their would have been noo need for him to dodge Naruto and sasuke Jutsu if he could just Absorb them.
> 
> Madara has Gravity manipulation Thank to Rinnegan he could literally pull Isshiki towards him and just crush him in his hands or Hit him with Shinra Tensei.  Shrinking would actually be a Horrible move to use against Someone with Rinnegan as they could just take advantage of him being Small and pull him towards them with Gravity and Crush him in his hands. Almost like Sasuke Took Advantage of Jigen being Small and almost killed him with his sword which is why Jigen Ran away from that.



Already addressed all of this.



MYGod000 said:


> He can Switch places with Limbo like He did before when he was caught in a Jutsu he switched places with Limbo.



"Switching places" in that context literally just meant moving out of the position and leaving a Limbo a clone to take the hit.

It's not Sasuke's Ameno lol, it still requires him to physically move out of the way.

And since neither Naruto nor Isshiki could avoid Otsutsuki's S/T from the close range, we have no reason to believe Madara can.

The strength of that S/T is that it generates a wormhole around the target, making it very difficult to move out of the way before it goes behind you.



MYGod000 said:


> are you going to tell me Madara isn't going to be able to React even though We see Naruto and Everyone else Reacting to These S/T abilities even Isshiki Reacted to S/T.



Exactly, he can't avoid it.



MYGod000 said:


> Since it made by Chakra Madara could just Absorb it with preta path. unless you're going to tell me Madara preta Path Can't interact with S/T but it can interact with Madara.  Which makes no sense.



S/T can't be absorbed.



MYGod000 said:


> You haven't explained how he would Destabilize him and why it didn't work against Naruto who is implied to Be like Juubi Jin.
> 
> Again...how you have to give me some type of Explanation on how this destabilizing kicks of Isshiki works and why it didn't work against Naruto. It would have saved him alot of Trouble if he could just Kick the 9 tails out of Naruto killing him in the process. Isshiki hasn't even shown he can Remove Juubi From someone otherwise he would have just Removed the 9 tails from Naruto.
> 
> ...



Being the Juubi Jin is different than being a normal Jin, the Juubi has so much chakra that it's simply hard for hosts to maintain control.

We see this repeatedly with Obito and even with freaking Kaguya.

And if Kaguya was susceptible to being destabilized, then Madara is as well.

In fact if you think about it Madara DID get destabilized once BZ made him absorb Kaguya's chakra.


But regardless, i can even grant you that Isshiki won't be able to destabilize Madara, i don't really care.

Because he still has two win conditions against which you have not provided a convincing counter: S/T BFR and pot sealing.

While Madara has no realistic win conditions as all his arsenal is ineffective.

So doesn't matter how we look at it, the fodder doesn't have much of a chance against Isshiki either way.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## MYGod000 (Jan 3, 2023)

blk said:


> Exactly, he can't.
> 
> Since neither Naruto nor Sasuke could really perceive them, we have no reason to believe Madara can.
> 
> ...



what are you talking about? Sasuke Saw the Rods the only problem he could barely Track them.



Like I said Rinne-Sharingan Madara>>>>Adult Sasuke anyway.


Isshiki Rods are non fact as well as Madara can Use Limbo.


I'm asking you why should we Assume Isshiki Rods Affect Limbo clone when Sasuke Sword couldn't affect Limbo?

Naruto was Able to Affect Limbo using his Rods that had Six path Senjutsu...their is no proof that Isshiki Rods utilizes Six path Senjutsu.


blk said:


> Or ya know he could simply just turn back into normal size or teleport away lol



He better or risk getting killed.


blk said:


> The hell? Of course he has absorption, this is 100% headcanon.
> 
> And btw if Isshiki doesn't have absorption because he didn't use it when it could have been useful, then by the same logic Madara doesn't have a fckton of Jutsu (including the ones we are discussing, like ST, BT, etc).



Explain where is his Absorption abilities comes from. Jigen was using Karma Seal Isshiki doesn't have a Karma Seal.


SM Kojin Never made any statements that Isshiki can absorb chakra.   That is irrefutable facts.

ST,BT, and all those Jutsu you claim Madara can't use are done with Rinnegan Something JJ Madara still has.  Isshiki doesn't have Karma Seal which Jigen was using to absorb Chakra and Jutsu.


The only person using Headcanon here is you assuming Isshiki can Absorb Jutsu when he doesn't have Karma Seal which has been Established By the Story how Jigen was Absorbing Jutsu and How Boruto is Absorbing Jutsu Isshiki doesn't have it for you to make that argument and then Talk about Madara not using Jutsu that is connected to Rinnegan like I showed you is completely disingenuous on your part.  Let stick to the Things Isshiki can do you have no proof of him being able to Absorb Jutsu.


blk said:


> Already addressed all of this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like just accepted that Limbo takes the place of the user to takes the hit of the Jutsu


Let not ignore Madara has 4 Limbo clones which he can switch positions with anyone of them.

Isshiki sat their attempted to talk to Boruto while he was charging not making any movement Isshiki got him self BFR.


Madara's React speed is faster than Adult Naruto who no longer has the Same SPSM From when he was a Teen and unable to fly as an adult.

I could make an Argument that Madara could potential See the Chakra Build up in his Rinne-Sharingan or Rinnegan when Isshiki making the S/T jutsu. Seriously doubt Madara is going to sit around doing nothing while he is charging at him chances are he is going to use Limbo long before Isshiki get close enough to him to Attempt BFR because that what Madara did before.




blk said:


> Exactly, he can't avoid it.
> 
> 
> 
> S/T can't be absorbed.



Like I said Isshiki did Reacted to it we see the Expression he made before he got Teleported and Isshiki couldn't do anything he doesn't have a Jutsu that can switch places.  Let assume He doesn't Isshiki will be Teleported as well with Madara who will then just use Limbo to stop him from leaving and until he opens another portal which Madara can easily use to Get back.


Since you're using Jigen and Boruto as Examples look at those panels again buddy Both parties where BFR   the Caster and the person who was getting BFR...so how would that help your case Now you have to prove that he will just Leave and not Tell a speech like he did the First time with Naruto. all Madara has to do is use Limbo to keep him from leaving since he will realize that Isshiki is the only way he would be able to get back so Now Madara. It not like Obito can't summoning Madara back with Summoning Jutsu. Like everyone else has done in Naruto series by just needing a drop of DNA or blood .

Sasuke was basically completely gone from one of his battles with deidara.


Naruto with Hagoromo SPSM was able to interact with Kaguya's S/T which is far better than Jigen/Isshiki space time.

Obito stated Kaguya's S/T jutsu was similar to Kamui so use Madara can interact with Space time jutsu


blk said:


> Being the Juubi Jin is different than being a normal Jin, the Juubi has so much chakra that it's simply hard for hosts to maintain control.
> 
> We see this repeatedly with Obito and even with freaking Kaguya.
> 
> And if Kaguya was susceptible to being destabilized, then Madara is as well.



For you to use Obito and Kaguya losing control over the Juubi in two completely different Situations to then use that as a spring Board  to say that Isshiki will just destabilize Madara when you haven't presented No evidence is intellectually  Disingenuous.

Kaguya lose Control Because Naruto used individual pieces of the Bijuu chakra from That juubi to disrupt her chakra.

Obito lost control because he didn't have the Will power to control the Juubi until he gained it by thinking about Rin.


How do any of those situations implies Isshiki would be able to accomplish that against Madara?  Isshiki doesn't have Pieces of the Bijuu chakra...Madara isn't losing control over the Juubi chakra.  You need to find another argument because what you're trying to argue here for this is baseless and build on no evidences.


blk said:


> In fact if you think about it Madara DID get destabilized once BZ made him absorb Kaguya's chakra.
> 
> 
> But regardless, i can even grant you that Isshiki won't be able to destabilize Madara, i don't really care.



By Making Madara absorb Planet level of chakra when he was already controlling the Juubi chakra (which the Databook already stated is almost nearly impossible to do.) that Was from a back Stab from BZ. How would Isshiki do that to Madara?




blk said:


> Because he still has two win conditions against which you have not provided a convincing counter: S/T BFR and pot sealing.
> 
> While Madara has no realistic win conditions as all his arsenal is ineffective.
> 
> So doesn't matter how we look at it, the fodder doesn't have much of a chance against Isshiki either way.


I did counter it above Isshiki/Jigen/Boruto's BFR S/T jutsu requires them to Be up close and BFR with the target.

That not going to end the Fight...because Isshiki will just be BFR with Madara.  Go back and Read the Manga with Jigen when he BFR Naruto  and Boruto when he BFR Isshiki they were Teleported to the same place The Target was BFR to the fight isn't over just Because Isshiki BFR someone he has to then attempt to leave. Madara just needs to use Limbo to stop him from leaving just like Sasuke Kicked Jigen when he was about to Leave Sasuke.


Actually Madara does have multiple Win Conditions which you can't counter at all.


Limbo which Isshiki can see or sense

Since you claimed Isshiki will be coming in close to Fight  Madara Madara can literally attempt to Remove his soul which would give Madara knowledge about The other Otsutsuki and their abilities.

I.T which can one shot Isshiki with Genjutsu.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## blk (Jan 3, 2023)

Sorry @MYGod000 but your post has too much headcanon for me to reply, you may want to re-read the story w/out Madara shaped glasses

Reactions: Funny 1 | Useful 1


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## Raiken (Jan 3, 2023)

blk said:


> Sorry @MYGod000 *but your post has too much headcanon for me to reply*, you may want to re-read the story w/out Madara shaped glasses


Does he though? What is MYGods argument?

Is it something I'd agree with or controvertial even to our camp?

I honestly just cba reading everything haha.


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## blk (Jan 3, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Does he though? What is MYGods argument?
> 
> Is it something I'd agree with or controvertial even to our camp?
> 
> I honestly just cba reading everything haha.



The most far fetched claims as far as i'm concerned are:

- Limbo is like Ameno

- Isshiki doesn't have absorption (not relevant either way for my arguments, but still annoying)

- Madara can always stop the black rods and the S/T from getting him


Too many excuses just to not accept that Isshiki has much easier win conditions.

Although tbh i only partially read (the rest skimmed) his last post because he's too verbose


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## Raiken (Jan 3, 2023)

blk said:


> The most far fetched claims as far as i'm concerned are:
> 
> - Limbo is like Ameno


What do you mean *like *Ameno? Sorry I know I didn't read the thread, my bad lol.


blk said:


> - Isshiki doesn't have absorption (not relevant either way for my arguments, but still annoying)


Isshiki's absorption is a really good power. But Madara also has Gudoudama, JJ Regen, Limbo Defense & Preta Path.


blk said:


> - Madara can always stop the black rods and the S/T from getting him


He can shield himself with TSB's.  That will destroy all of Isshiki's Rods. TSB's >>>> Yin+Yang Release Black Rods made by Rinnegan users & Ootsutsuki.


blk said:


> Too many excuses just to not accept that Isshiki has much easier win conditions.


What are Isshiki's Win Cons for you?


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## xingi (Jan 3, 2023)

Lol at people bringing absorption like it's even relevant. 
Isshiki has absorption as his karma also has said ability. Regardless absorption is completely useless for isshiki. Shikuna so much better than absorption it's hilarious. 

Only reason he relied on absorption so much as jigen is because jigen did not have the dojutsu so shikuna was much less effective.


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## blk (Jan 3, 2023)

Raiken said:


> What do you mean *like *Ameno? Sorry I know I didn't read the thread, my bad lol.



He basically meant that Madara can switch with Limbo clones like Sasuke switches with things using Ameno.

Unless i misunderstood his words, but his argument wouldn't really make sense otherwise (or he would be agreeing with me).



Raiken said:


> Isshiki's absorption is a really good power. But Madara also has Gudoudama, JJ Regen, Limbo Defense & Preta Path.



Well none of these things are gonna play much of a factor anyway.

Isshiki's absorption because there aren't many powerful Jutsu he can absorb from Madara and because shrinking stuff by looking at it is waay better and faster.

Madara's TSBs and Preta because the former are immediately shrinked and teleported away, Preta Path because Isshiki doesn't have abilities to be absorbed.

Regen and Limbo are useful tho.



Raiken said:


> He can shield himself with TSB's.  That will destroy all of Isshiki's Rods. TSB's >>>> Yin+Yang Release Black Rods made by Rinnegan users & Ootsutsuki.



TSBs are non factors as already mentioned. They are just gonna get shrinked and frozen in Isshiki's dimension.

It's also not clear TSBs manipulation would be quick enough to stop extremely fast microscopic rods teleported in front of Madara's body.



Raiken said:


> What are Isshiki's Win Cons for you?



Three main possibilities:

- kick Madara's ass until he's destabilized

- S/T BFR

- pot sealing


Whether he can be destabilized or not, isn't as clear as with Juubito, as Madara did regenerate with little issues even from catastrophic damage (half of his body blown away by 8th Gate Gai).

Although technically a non-PIS Isshiki could put microscopic Bijuu-tier rods in his body (and eyes) and enlarge them (the ones he used against Kurama Avatar and that paralyze the Juubi), thus completely obliterating his body as well as the Rinnegans.
And i can't really see Madara regenerating from _that_, but it's also true that it isn't IC for Isshiki to do so.


Other than that i really see no way he can prevent an eventual S/T BFR, or pot sealing once paralyzed by enough rods.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## xingi (Jan 3, 2023)

blk said:


> Regen and Limbo are useful tho.


Neither are really useful tbh (at madaras level at least).

The thought of limbo doing anything to isshiki is hilarious when by isshiki's own words bayron Naruto punches weren't doing much physical damage to him.



blk said:


> Three main possibilities:
> 
> - kick Madara's ass until he's destabilized
> 
> ...


It's gonna be a combination of all. Kick his ass then bfr him into sealing pot

Reactions: Like 2


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## blk (Jan 3, 2023)

xingi said:


> Neither are really useful tbh (at madaras level at least).
> 
> The thought of limbo doing anything to isshiki is hilarious when by isshiki's own words bayron Naruto punches weren't doing much physical damage to him.
> 
> ...



Well they are useful in the sense that they are at least _usable_ against Isshiki lol

With regen and Limbo he can at least buy some time.

While the rest of his arsenal gets instantly vanished into Isshiki's dimension.

Reactions: Like 2


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## MYGod000 (Jan 3, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Does he though? What is MYGods argument?
> 
> Is it something I'd agree with or controvertial even to our camp?
> 
> I honestly just cba reading everything haha.


His premise is That Isshiki Has Karma Absorption abilities something  has never been Stated or shown after Being Revived and that he will Just BFR Madara and the fight will just be over like that and used Jigen and Boruto As example Even those we have Tons of evidence That shows how How Isshiki/Boruto/Jigen S/T jutsu abilities works.


Both Example he referred to  shows the user BFRing the Target and Being sent with the Target.   I argued, if Isshiki BFR Madara he will be Sent to the same place with the Target and then he would need to leave What are the Chances of Madara Letting him leave?  he is going to intercept him with Limbo that assuming if Limbo is Teleported with him or not.


Then he tried to Argued that Isshiki would just Destabilize Madara with punches and Kicks and proceeded to use  Kaguya and Obito being Destabilized as examples to spring board the Iead Isshiki magically can do this as well when he doesn't have any Bijuu chakra to speak of...but i'm the one using Headcanon according to him.

I mainly just said Madara wins Via out lasting him Isshiki has nothing to remove Tailed Beast from individual it not one of his abilities nor is it implied he has Chakra absorption abilities that was a result of Karama seal which Isshiki didn't have.

I Told him Madara could switch places which any of his 4 limbo Clones to avoid BFR.


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## MYGod000 (Jan 3, 2023)

xingi said:


> Lol at people bringing absorption like it's even relevant.
> Isshiki has absorption as his karma also has said ability. Regardless absorption is completely useless for isshiki. Shikuna so much better than absorption it's hilarious.
> 
> Only reason he relied on absorption so much as jigen is because jigen did not have the dojutsu so shikuna was much less effective.


No one said having Absorption was Relevant or not all i said is Isshiki Doesn't have it. Just because you deem it not relevant to the discussion doesn't mean we should lie to ourselves and claim Isshiki has the abilities when their really no proof he does have it.


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## Sparks (Jan 4, 2023)

xingi said:


> Lol at people bringing absorption like it's even relevant.
> Isshiki has absorption as his karma also has said ability. Regardless absorption is completely useless for isshiki. Shikuna so much better than absorption it's hilarious.
> 
> Only reason he relied on absorption so much as jigen is because jigen did not have the dojutsu so shikuna was much less effective.


It should be evident from Code that Isshiki has absorption. Code has a White Karma seal, which looks and activates in the same manner as a Black Karma, yet cannot use Karma absorption. If the ability was inherent to the seal itself, then Code would be able to.

What's missing from Code's Karma is Isshiki's genetic information and abilities since he cannot serve as Isshiki's vessel. So the missing absorption ability has to be rooted elsewhere from the seal itself.

There's the fact that Sukunahikona and Daikokuten have far greater utility than Karma absorption. And one could also make the argument that since Isshiki's lifespan timer existed because Jigen's body couldn't handle Isshiki's massive chakra, that taking on even more chakra via absorption would accelerate his demise.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jan 4, 2023)

In terms of scaling JJ Madara is probably still above anyone of the Adult Fate Brothers in raw power, but in terms of Taijutsu he isn’t as even Teen Naruto’s Clones matched him, so Ishiki would decimate him in Taijutsu. So then it would come down to if JJ-Madara could use P-Susanoo; if he could then perhaps that Susanoo would be fast enough and durable enough to do something against Ishik.

JJ Obito is weaker though than the Adult Fate Brothers (or at best only close to them). However simply acting as a Chakra Battery for Madara would be a huge plus as it would give Madara another 10-Tails worth of Chakra. This may be enough for Madara to make some moves on Ishiki.

Overall I think Ishiki’s odds here are better but I think that Madara and Obito might have a chance


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## Sparks (Jan 4, 2023)

Turrin said:


> In terms of scaling JJ Madara is probably still above anyone of the Adult Fate Brothers in raw power, but in terms of Taijutsu he isn’t as even Teen Naruto’s Clones matched him, so Ishiki would decimate him in Taijutsu. So then it would come down to if JJ-Madara could use P-Susanoo; if he could then perhaps that Susanoo would be fast enough and durable enough to do something against Ishik.
> 
> JJ Obito is weaker though than the Adult Fate Brothers (or at best only close to them). However simply acting as a Chakra Battery for Madara would be a huge plus as it would give Madara another 10-Tails worth of Chakra. This may be enough for Madara to make some moves on Ishiki.
> 
> Overall I think Ishiki’s odds here are better but I think that Madara and Obito might have a chance


Madara's body can't handle a second 10 Tails worth of chakra.


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## Turrin (Jan 4, 2023)

Sparks said:


> Madara's body can't handle a second 10 Tails worth of chakra.


Maybe he will only take in .5 of it then, still going to be amp


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## Fused (Jan 4, 2023)

Sparks said:


> Madara's body can't handle a second 10 Tails worth of chakra.


Black Zetsu was tampering with his body.

We don't know if Madara can't handle it if he doesn't have an outside parasite messing him up from the inside.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Sparks (Jan 4, 2023)

Fused said:


> Black Zetsu was tampering with his body.
> 
> We don't know if Madara can't handle it if he doesn't have an outside parasite messing him up from the inside.


It's stated that he can't handle that quantity of chakra. Period.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1 | Lewd 1 | Dislike 1


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## Raiken (Jan 4, 2023)

Sparks said:


> It's stated that he can't handle that quantity of chakra. Period.


No it's not.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## Fused (Jan 4, 2023)

Sparks said:


> It's stated that he can't handle that quantity of chakra. Period.


Blatant lie, it's not stated anywhere.

Madara already handled one Ten Tails without breaking a sweat, literally slapped that shit into himself and moved on with his life. A second Ten Tails is where you draw the line? What a joke

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 4, 2023)

Sparks said:


> It's stated that he can't handle that quantity of chakra. Period.



Facts

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Ludi (Jan 4, 2023)

Sparks said:


> It's stated that he can't handle that quantity of chakra. Period.



Canon feats and portrayal agree with this.  

Much more chakra results into madara losing control and turning into Kaguya.  

Though I guess you could argue that Madara absorbing Obito and transforming into Kaguya isn't restricted here


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