# Itachi vs. Tobirama



## Ersa (Jul 7, 2014)

*Location*: Uchiha Hideout.
*Mindset*: In-character.
*Knowledge*: Full.
*Distance*: 10m.
*Restrictions/Conditions*: 
- Both characters are Edo Tensei zombies.
- Kotoamatsukumi/Izanami are restricted.
- Tobirama can summon 2 generic Jounin.


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## ARGUS (Jul 7, 2014)

Tobirama wins 

--he can expand his use of FTG through his KB as well as  2 edos that he has here ITT,, as he can also destroy itachis susanoo variants through GKF as  he can also use it through his 2 edos,  which would allow tobiramma to mark itachi similar to how marked juubito

--he can also use FTG to evade all of itachis attacks 

--genjutsu is not happening since tobirama has sensing skillls as well as his FTG being fast enough for him to evade sharingan precog and evade eye contact


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## LeBoyka (Jul 7, 2014)

Tobirama wins High-Difficulty.


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## Bonly (Jul 7, 2014)

Well Tobi has no sealing jutsu as far as I remember so the best I could think of is that he also uses talisman to control his Edo's meaning that putting one in Itachi might allow Tobi to control him. If so then it's a case of will Itachi land a hit with his Totsuka no Tsurugi first or will Tobi plant the talisman first which could go either way depending on how things play out


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 7, 2014)

could go either way but with full knowledge im slightly leaning toward tobirama.


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## Dr. White (Jul 7, 2014)

I don't know why people think sensing is gonna save people from genjutsu all of a sudden.

Anyway, Tobirama gives Itachi a look... A very stern, and ghastly stare. Itachi returns a cold, blank face to the man who discriminated against his clan and led them to revolt, causing him to save it (by ironically eradicating them). Tobirama taps his finger and the ground shakes everywhere but around Itachi. Tobirama's formerly grimace evolves into a sly faced smirk. But Itachi unphased by the overly alpha display of power simply looks it off, and brushes his hair to the side per cannon. It isn't windy that day, but a graceful (yet powerful) gale occurs to animate Itachi's hair. Likewise he now sports a half grin. 

What happened next is still up to debate by theologians, physical scientist, and historians alike, but all that is known for sure is that the two definitely banged Kurenai, and eventually sat down over a bottle of Sake. Tobirama never again treated an Uchiha badly again.


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## Turrin (Jul 7, 2014)

Full knowledge aids both of them in the sense that Tobirama is not getting taken off guard by a surprise Genjutsu, but Itachi is not getting taken of guard by a surprise FTG-blitz. Tobirama will have to force Itachi to get near a FTG-maker while Itachi will have to force eye-contact.  However there are a coulple of key difference that favor Tobirama.

1) It's more difficulty for Itachi to do the latter than Tobirama to do the former. Eye-Contact can simply be avoid via  sensing for Tobirama. FTG makers are more difficult for Itachi to avoid as he has no complete answer to them. He can repel thrown FTG-Marked-Weapons with his own Kunai and Katon Ninjutsu and personally I think he will be able to see hidden markers with his Sharingan picking up on the chakra contained in the seals. However where Itachi has an issue is if Tobirama utilizes Shunshin to get in close with a marked weapon and utilizes Hiraishingiri; with the same applying to Tobirama's KB, which by themselves can also act as warp points. Like wise with two Edos on the field, if Tobirama tags them (or gives them a FTG-Marked-Weapon) this would further add to the challenge of always staying a step ahead of the markers. Itachi could always fall back on Susano'o to defend himself, but it's questionable to say the least whether Susano'o can withstand multiple Tandem-Explosive-Tag assaults or can't simply be warped away (or attacks warped inside of it). Assuming it can defend all of that, that brings us to the second advantage Tobirama has

2) Tobirama has a massive edge over Itachi in stamina. This is especially true if Itachi is falling back on Susano'o as his primary defense, as that consumes his stamina even quicker. If the battle simply devolves into a contest where both are able to continuously counter each others Jutsu, than it will come down to stamina, at which point Tobirama odds of winning dramatically increase over Itachi's.

3) Tobirama has the upside potential of whatever his Tensei are brining to the table. While the OP says generic Jonin, so we can assume they aren't soloing Itachi or even pressuring him much on their own, even generic Jonin level crap can become a serious threat when combined with FTG or having to simultaneously deal with the Jonin's stuff, while also dealing with Tobirama. Even if it's something as simple as brining basic Sutions to the table, they can counter Itachi's Katons allowing Tobirama to conserve chakra and attention. Tobirama himself also has more upside potential to show new moves as he's had less panel time than Itachi.

Besides that, unfortunately outside of a clever tactic to get Tobirama to fall into Genjutsu, Itachi's other moves are countered by Tobirama's move-set. FTG canonically trolls Amaterasu. Tobirama's Suitons counter Itachi's Katons/Suitons. FTG will allow him to evade Totsuka and Susano'o attacks. And CQC is a death sentence for Itachi due to Hiraishingiri. 

For these reasons Tobirama has much better odds here.  At no knowledge and Edo-Tensei restricted I feel Itachi's odds would be better, but i'd still side with Tobirama overall; Tobirama is kind of like an Uchiha's worst nightmere with all of his moves well suited to countering their own. Really doubt any Uchiha besides the god level ones would have much success against Tobirama for this reason.


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## Dr. White (Jul 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> 1) It's more difficulty for Itachi to do the latter than Tobirama to do the former. Eye-Contact can simply be avoid via  sensing for Tobirama. FTG makers are more difficult for Itachi to avoid as he has no complete answer to them.



-Why?
-Finger Genjutsu (which even if Tobirama can break will still take time)
-Crow Genjutsu
-Ranged Genjutsu

Amaterasu also counters tagged objects and Tobirama getting to close.

Hell Itachi with katons and superior clone feint game (feinted a superior sensor in Kabuto) can deal with his Hirashin Game IMO ontop of genjutsu.


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## Turrin (Jul 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -Why?
> -Finger Genjutsu (which even if Tobirama can break will still take time)
> -Crow Genjutsu
> -Ranged Genjutsu
> .


Tobirama has full knowledge. 



> Amaterasu also counters tagged objects and Tobirama getting to close.


I never said he had an issue countering tagged objects. Though this strategy of using Amaterasu to counter them would result in him being raped by Tobirama considering how exhausting it would be to use Amaterasu every time Tobirama threw a tagged-weapon his way.



> Hell Itachi with katons and superior clone feint game (feinted a superior sensor in Kabuto) can deal with his Hirashin Game IMO ontop of genjutsu.


If Itachi sits back and constantly clone feints he runs out of chakra before Tobirama and looses. This is even with the extremely beneficial assumption that Tobirama at no point ever sees through these clone feints.

Katon is useless against the things I actually said are a problem for Itachi, and gets shut down by Suiton.


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

Full knowledge doesn't make you immune to genjutsu, it just gives you the opportunity to be prepared for it. You'll still be caught in it unless you stay completely out of range. (Talking finger genjutsu btw) Which just isn't realistic for Tobirama.


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## Veracity (Jul 7, 2014)

Tobirama dicks. Itcahi can't react to Juubito  level handspeed


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2014)

Tobirama generally is stronger. However, since he does not have any sealing jutsu
he will eventually lose.


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## Garcher (Jul 7, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tobirama dicks. Itcahi can't react to Juubito  level handspeed



You sure? Itachi was able to react to Kirin which got lightning speed


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## richard lewis (Jul 7, 2014)

This is a very close match but I'd lean towards itachi winning high diff. 

Itachi can spam susanoo all day long and tobirama has to way of getting past it, itachi on the other hand isn't quick enough to tag tobirama b4 he can teleport with FTG, and even if he could tag him with amaterasu "which is the only jutsu itachi has that is fast enough" tobirama can just warp away the flames. However tobirama can only make but so many FTG seals and this is where itachi has an advantage. If itachi can predict where tobirama will teleport to he can have totsuika waiting right by the FTG marking to stab tobirama as soon as he teleports there. It will just be a guessing game for itachi as to which seal tobirama will teleport to. But tobirama won't make it easy considering he can use KB's and such as distractions. It boils down to the fact that tobirama has no way of bypassing susanoo while itachi has a very difficult but plausible way of bypassing FTG, so eventually he will win.

Being an edo helps itachi much more than it helps tobirama, being a senju the hokage has god lvl stamina while alive, where as itachi's was above average but not top tier and the MS drains it quickly.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 7, 2014)

Endless stalemate, because with infinite chakra, Itachi can just keep Susano'o up all day while Tobirama can just keep teleporting away from attacks with Hiraishin. Kage Bunshin from either side might eventually cause a slip-up and a conclusion to the fight, but that would be impossible to predict. So they basically keep fighting forever unless and until one of them fucks up and pays for it, and that can go either way.

The fodder Edo Tensei get Totsuka GG'ed.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 7, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama generally is stronger. However, since he does not have any sealing jutsu
> he will eventually lose.



Tobirama should have those control talismans for Edo Tensei, like Kabuto and Orochimaru did.

So if he can shove one of those in Itachi's head, he can take control of him and end the fight there.

It's not a seal, but it works just as well.


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## Malicious Friday (Jul 7, 2014)

Tobirama. I doubt he'd go easy on an Uchiha.


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Tobirama should have those control talismans for Edo Tensei, like Kabuto and Orochimaru did.
> 
> So if he can shove one of those in Itachi's head, he can take control of him and end the fight there.
> 
> It's not a seal, but it works just as well.



We don't know for sure if he has those, and even if he does we don't know how powerful they are.
since his should be weaker than Oro's in part 1, and thus they are supposedly made for those
extremely weak ninja (because they probably will return with a fraction of their power) 

on the other hand, itachi's ET is far superior to that of Tobirama's. So, I doubt his tags would work
on a superior ET. Of course, that's assuming he has them. @>@


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## Veracity (Jul 7, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> You sure? Itachi was able to react to Kirin which got lightning speed



Doubt it. Tobirama could tag Juubito 5 with one arm mid shunshin. You'd need complete Juubitos or juubidara level reactions to react to that, and Itachi clearly doesn't. Either that lighting feat is an outlier or Itachi didn't react to actual lighting.


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## Dr. White (Jul 7, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> and Itachi clearly doesn't.


Based on?
-Reacted to lightning falling which Kishi conveinetly gave us a fucking statistic for... (how do you suppose it's an outlier lol)

-Reacted to no knowledge Mukai Tensei (the same jutsu Kaguya is using) something EMS Sauce couldn't react to (he later went on to react to Juubito btw)

-Kept up with KCM Naruto, and Sage Kabuto despite their great sensing and speed.


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2014)

someone posted this when I debated with him about Tobirama to explain what he did


and it's probably useless, there is no point of putting those on itachi if he is going to get his body destroyed completely or sealed. As even if he did, yeah, he will blow itachi up, but itachi will regenerate, while Tobirama will be sealed in this situation. @>@


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## Dr. White (Jul 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama has full knowledge.


Okay and since when does full knowledge mean immunity? You specifically stated Tobirama has to watch out for his eyes to avoid being genjutsu'd and that to genjutsu Tobirama Itachi would have to force eye contact, which is false because Itachi doesn't need eye contact to entrap one. 



> I never said he had an issue countering tagged objects. Though this strategy of using Amaterasu to counter them would result in him being raped by Tobirama considering how exhausting it would be to use Amaterasu every time Tobirama threw a tagged-weapon his way.


They are edo's in this fight, and tobirama doesn't ahve endless equipment. Itachi can also keep his distance once he figures FTG. Which he will as he is every jutsu's weakness, and has sharingan to see the chakra.



> If Itachi sits back and constantly clone feints he runs out of chakra before Tobirama and looses. This is even with the extremely beneficial assumption that Tobirama at no point ever sees through these clone feints.


Karasu clones cannonically don't cost alot of chakra to use.

Itachi can outweave the sharginan, and made a clone mid being armlocked with Sasuke.

He also feinted Uzumaki enhanced Sage sensing.



> Katon is useless against the things I actually said are a problem for Itachi, and gets shut down by Suiton.


It deflects Kunai, and pushes them away, also break LOS.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 7, 2014)

Itachi wins no matter how any thinks this fight will go just to many weapons Totsuka gg tsukuyomi gg and izanami gg  

Maybe if the both where alive tobirama would have a better chance but as undying zombies FTG  is useless itachi would just regen.

No matter how long the fight takes itachi would come out on top just a matter of time.


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## Veracity (Jul 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Based on?
> -Reacted to lightning falling which Kishi conveinetly gave us a fucking statistic for... (how do you suppose it's an outlier lol)
> 
> -Reacted to no knowledge Mukai Tensei (the same jutsu Kaguya is using) something EMS Sauce couldn't react to (he later went on to react to Juubito btw)
> ...



Give me the statistic for this?

Are you saying that Kabuto and Kaguya have he same proficiency in Justu ? And EMS Sasuke during the Juubito arc had better reactions then EMS Sasuke during the Kabuto arc.

Reacted to KCM Naruto's taijustu.

Still doesn't mean anything as all of the above are slower then Juubito. Tagging Juubito 5 times during a shunshin with one arm puts his hand speed at god level. Are you assuming itcahi can react to something faster then Juubito ?


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 7, 2014)

To make this simple I am just going to say I think kishi has simply placed Tobirama on another level compared to Itachi. Hell Tobirama probably knows more about the sharingan and it's abilities then Itachi does 

I honestly think Tobirama would have an easier time with Itachi then Minato would simply due to his vast knowledge and years of fighting the uchiha

The only possible way for Itachi to win is if he lands his genjutsu and thats even questionable since Tobirama did not seem suprised about Tsukuyomi. The rest of Itachi aresnal simply gets trolled by superior sensing, knowledge and FTG. Tobirama spent his entire life fighting the sharingan so I doubt he's going to fall for genjutsu in the first place

I think kishi made it pretty clear that the 4 hokages(Sarutobi  haha jk) > basically anyone not named Madara, Juubi hosts, Sasuke,Naruto with people such as Nagato & kabuto & 8 gated guy as exceptions to the rule


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## Turrin (Jul 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Okay and since when does full knowledge mean immunity? You specifically stated Tobirama has to watch out for his eyes to avoid being genjutsu'd and that to genjutsu Tobirama Itachi would have to force eye contact, which is false because Itachi doesn't need eye contact to entrap one.


I said Itachi has to force eye-contact. Whether that be with himself, a clone, or shisui-eye-crow. And no I don't accept Finger-Genjutsu as even a minor threat to Tobirama. 



> They are edo's in this fight,


Edos still run out of chakra (or rather low on).



> and tobirama doesn't ahve endless equipment. Itachi can also keep his distance once he figures FTG


He kind of does since he can FTG mark virtually anything.



> . Which he will as he is every jutsu's weakness, and has sharingan to see the chakra


Please spare me the BS wank or i'm done here.



> Karasu clones cannonically don't cost alot of chakra to use.
> 
> Itachi can outweave the sharginan, and made a clone mid being armlocked with Sasuke.
> 
> He also feinted Uzumaki enhanced Sage sensing.


Lovely he still would loose do to running out of (or rather low on) chakra first.



> It deflects Kunai, and pushes them away, also break LOS.


Again has nothing to do with what I said would be a problem.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 8, 2014)

Hussain said:


> We don't know for sure if he has those, and even if he does we don't know how powerful they are.
> since his should be weaker than Oro's in part 1, and thus they are supposedly made for those
> extremely weak ninja (because they probably will return with a fraction of their power)
> 
> ...



Since when does the strength of an Edo Tensei matter when controlling them with tags?

As far as anyone can tell, Kabuto and Orochimaru used the same type of tags; Kabuto just had a different control method.

Wait, why are you arguing for Itachi and why am I arguing against you?


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## Ersa (Jul 8, 2014)

Nikushimi is a closet Itachi hater.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Okay and since when does full knowledge mean immunity? You specifically stated Tobirama has to watch out for his eyes to avoid being genjutsu'd and that to genjutsu Tobirama Itachi would have to force eye contact, which is false because Itachi doesn't need eye contact to entrap one.


Full knowledge that he is a Uchiha. Tobirama fought against and alongside Uchiha his entire life. We all seen the flashbacks and know that he was fighting from a very young age against Uchiha on a daily basis and was highly skilled and outlived Hashirama, some fucking how. He knows their basic techniques and he killed Izuna in a battle. We see Madara's proficiency in genjutsu, but we also know the one with the best genjutsu(of Uchiha brothers) isn't able to stack against one that specializes in offense due to any sharingan being able to break genjutsu if you had the same caliber eye. So its not ridiculous to say that Izuna could hold his own in genjutsu. And if you think about it genjutsu would be a prized weapon of the Uchiha. It was rare to awaken the sharingan and possessing it meant possessing the ability to use genjutsu. Tobirama knows this, he knows every fucking thing.

Also nothing less than Tsukuyomi would actually effect Tobirama. He has great chakra control.





> They are edo's in this fight, and tobirama doesn't ahve endless equipment. Itachi can also keep his distance once he figures FTG. Which he will as he is every jutsu's weakness, and has sharingan to see the chakra.


 Tobirama would overwhelm him with Suitons and will eventually seal Itachi with a sealing tag. Also kinda need to know the Jounin and atleast their basic ninjutsu. Otherwise I figure Tobirama would get the DNA of one of them and tag him, pressure Itachi with suitons(other Jonin sits back, Tobirama keeps the necessary distance away) Tagged jonin blows up and destroys Itachi(YM is not saving him from that explosion, no god damn way). Itachi has to regen and Tobirama falls back and begins the ET ritual and sacrifices a jonin(he's done shown in character, he'll do anything to win if he is ET himself), of course he resurrects the best jounin in his eyes. Itachi pulls Susanoo back up and Tobirama tags himself and the jonin with the explosion tag and goes in to attack, both must dodge the Totsuka but if either get hit with it or about to they explode and thus destroy the sword so it can't complete the sealing ritual, I figure they will all die and immediately regen at once within 5-10meters, Tobirama then proceeds to throw kunais while the jonin attacks with ninjutsu. Tobirama will then tag him with a sealing tag unexpectedly because he's just that fucking boss.




> Karasu clones cannonically don't cost alot of chakra to use.


Itachi doesn't have that big of a chakra pool.





> Itachi can outweave the sharginan, and made a clone mid being armlocked with Sasuke.


And? Tobirama has experience fighting wars and ever since he was a child. He is arguably the most intelligent shinobi there has ever been, maybe other than Madara but that depends on how you look at it.





> He also feinted Uzumaki enhanced Sage sensing.


When?


> It deflects Kunai, and pushes them away, also break LOS.


Breaking LOS is an advantage for Tobirama's team.

Tobirama 6/10


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## IchLiebe (Jul 9, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Nikushimi is a closet Itachi hater.



No he isn't and you know how I know...I tried to argue for Itachi.

Back whenever I switched sides for a minute and tried to argue for Itachi, changed my avatar and sig to Itachi ones. But to no avail I couldn't make credible arguments and I came to the conclusion that anyone that isn't delusional in some form or fashion couldn't possibly think he wins against most high-top tiers depending on certain stipulations(most favoring ITachi).

And I know alot about Itachi's feats all of them...but I don't hype them up to more than what they actually are.

Like Naruto vs Itachi...Itachi wasn't keeping up with KCM Naruto, he was setting the pace. Itachi is powerful in his own right, but non-edo he is to handicapped by his chakra pool and in edo he is good but still limited by his overall chakra pool, Izanami might get Tobirama I will say that because when it comes down to it I believe that Tobirama does have some internal conflicts.


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## Ersa (Jul 9, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> No he isn't and you know how I know...I tried to argue for Itachi.
> 
> Back whenever I switched sides for a minute and tried to argue for Itachi, changed my avatar and sig to Itachi ones. But to no avail I couldn't make credible arguments and I came to the conclusion that anyone that isn't delusional in some form or fashion couldn't possibly think he wins against most high-top tiers depending on certain stipulations(most favoring ITachi).
> 
> ...


Wow, a reasonable post.

Define high top tiers, I'd personally place sickly Itachi around SM Jiraiya/MS Kakashi level. If someone were to suggest he'd beat say Minato or Tobirama I'd be inclined to disagree. I'd only put Edo Itachi up with those guys and below Nagato and anyone above.

The chakra pool limitation was heavily reduced as an Edo, he spammed MS as much as EMS Sasuke did. Even using it on a crow, you recall in Part I three uses of MS would tire him out yet here he is using it on crows just because he can. Sickly Itachi may not be able to hang with these "high-top" tiers but Edo Itachi certainly can.

Mangekyo Sharingan is still dangerous for anyone who isn't a top tier like Madara/Hashirama and add on the benefits of regenerating stamina/Juubidama  regeneration, high intelligence and all-round physical stats and you honestly have someone a lot stronger then your average Kage imo.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 9, 2014)

Yeah, like genjutsu is going to do shit against someone who hunted Uchiha down for a living. Not to mention he soloed an MS user


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## LeBoyka (Jul 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -Kept up with KCM Naruto, and Sage Kabuto despite their great sensing and speed.



You mean a  weakened clone of KCM Naruto who wasn't even trying hard and was busy talking? And you mean the same Kabuto who blitzed him and cut him in half??? 

BTW I just realized no one has sealing tags, and Itachi is the only one with sealing abilities.* I give it to Itachi* - after he gets man handled for awhile, he manages to seal Tobirama.


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## Bloo (Jul 9, 2014)

Why do people think full knowledge automatically means genjutsu isn't going to happen? Sasuke fought with Itachi with plenty of knowledge on Itachi's arsenal, barring Susano'o, and he still got caught in genjutsu twice. Having knowledge helps massively, but Tobirama is still not free of the risk of genjutsu.


IchLiebe said:


> in edo he is good but still limited by his overall chakra pool


Umm...
Taka Sasuke was weakened against B


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## crisler (Jul 9, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Yeah, like genjutsu is going to do shit against someone who hunted Uchiha down for a living. Not to mention he soloed an MS user



That kind of attitude is what killed Danzou. 

If Tobirama thinks he's fighting some average uchiha genjutsu then he's gonna have a bad time. 


But whatever, I don't think the two have that much difference although if one makes a slight mistake the battle could go very easily, as both have very dangerous set of skills.

Both of them are extremely smart, Itachi is physically very fast but Tobirama moves at the speed of light. Both excel at usage of clones, and Itachi is master of genjutsu but tobirama has faced many uchihas and killed many, including MS users.

It'd be a very interesting match to watch. I just hope Tobirama doesn't go all arrogant like Madara does, cuz unfortunately such arrogance is only allowed for someone above EMS Madara...


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## Dr. White (Jul 9, 2014)

Fighting Uchiha all one's life = immunity?

Do people forget Itachi isn't some novice user like early pt. 2 Sasuke, he is a fucking master at it, with multiple ways of employing it. You guys be on some major bullshit when it comes to your backward justifications of people stopping genjutsu


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## eyeknockout (Jul 9, 2014)

tobirama hasn't even shown anything close to a genjutsu defense, to even prove the fact of his loss he continuously was looking in juubito and madara's eyes.


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## trance (Jul 9, 2014)

Tobirama is a bit stronger but under these circumstances, I'd say they stalemate more times than not. Itachi is known for his tactical and strategic abilities but Tobirama has proven to be very crafty as well, so full knowledge also benefits him greatly here. Tobirama is just too smart and fast to be caught in Itachi's traps and vice versa.


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## Dominus (Jul 9, 2014)

eyeknockout said:


> tobirama hasn't even shown anything close to a genjutsu defense, to even prove the fact of his loss he continuously was looking in juubito and madara's eyes.





Guess who created Kage Bunshin? 

He could also use those jōnin he revives to break him out of genjutsu.


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2014)

Err Tobirama has full knowledge. Meaning he can solo here with Kage Bunshin immune to Genjustu while he sips tea.


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## Dr. White (Jul 9, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> > Guess who created Kage Bunshin?
> 
> 
> Too bad he doesn't have any feints feats. Subsequently Itachi's are the best. The feat is also against a non killing intent distraction clone.
> ...


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Authoritah said:
> 
> 
> > Too bad he doesn't have any feints feats. Subsequently Itachi's are the best. The feat is also against a non killing intent distraction clone.
> ...


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## Dr. White (Jul 9, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Edo Tensei weakens Tobirama and his Kage Bunshin was able to warp next to Juubito and place an arm on his shoulder before he could even register it. Tobirama can surely win with nothing more then 2 tagged Kage Bunshin and Jounin Edo.



1st of all I'd like to claim that none of what you said directly counters or even addresses my post which leads me to believe your troll replying for an ulterior motive.

-Tobirama himself specifically stated Oro's version brought them back at near full power. The difference is negligible. 

Itachi's has better bushin feats, and genjutsu that can best cast from long range. MS on top of this assures atleast a high diff fight either way. His edo's get crisped by Ama anyway.


> He also has prepped Edo for this thread.


And Itachi can easily pressure him off the bat.


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## Dominus (Jul 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Too bad he doesn't have any feints feats. Subsequently Itachi's are the best. The feat is also against a non killing intent distraction clone.



Taking into consideration his intelligence and the fact that he's the inventor of the jutsu I don't see why he couldn't pull it off, he could also use those Kage Bunshin to break him out of genjutsu.



> Assuming he can revive them or even decides to.



When he used Gojō Kibaku Fuda he said that it was the first time he used that jutsu with his own body which implies that he used it, but with the shinobi he revived. 

The OP also said:


Ersatz said:


> - Tobirama can summon 2 generic Jounin.


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## Dr. White (Jul 9, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Taking into consideration his intelligence and the fact that he's the inventor of the jutsu I don't see why he couldn't pull it off, he could also use those Kage Bunshin to break him out of genjutsu.


No doubt he could pull it off, but Itachi has better insight on people and has multiple ways to genjutsu a person. Also Tsukuyomi is GG.

Itachi likewise is a clone/inteligent master, and should be able to weed out the real Tobirama.




> When he used Gojō Kibaku Fuda he said that it was the first time he used that jutsu with his own body which implies that he used it, but with the shinobi he revived.
> 
> The OP also said:


I mean can, as in before Itachi is on his case. It also isn't a move that he seems to just pull out at the start of a fight.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 9, 2014)

Tobirama>Izuna>itachi


----------



## Veracity (Jul 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> 1st of all I'd like to claim that none of what you said directly counters or even addresses my post which leads me to believe your troll replying for an ulterior motive.
> 
> -Tobirama himself specifically stated Oro's version brought them back at near full power. The difference is negligible.
> 
> ...



You think Itachi can beat Tobirama. Then claimed his Kage Bunshin wouldn't be of worth because he can't clone feint on the level of Itachi? I'm merely showing that his Kage Bunshin can be of plenty worth. 

It's still not at full power so the difference is there.

What Bunshin feats ? What Genjustu feats that can be casted at long range ? All the real Tobirama has to do is sit Indian style with this eyes closed and use his sensory abilities while his clones do the work.

Tobirama can warp in front of Amaterasu and warp away thus taking the flame away.


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## Dominus (Jul 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> No doubt he could pull it off, but Itachi has better insight on people and has multiple ways to genjutsu a person. Also Tsukuyomi is GG.



Tsukuyomi requires eye contact and there's a possibility that it won't work on Tobirama here since he's an Edo Tensei, Infinite Tsukuyomi didn't affect reincarnated shinobi.



> Itachi likewise is a clone/inteligent master, and should be able to weed out the real Tobirama.



Only Madara has shown the ability to differentiate between shadow clones and the original.



> I mean can, as in before Itachi is on his case. It also isn't a move that he seems to just pull out at the start of a fight.



This is baseless. We have only seen him use Edo Tensei techniques once and he did it the moment they came to fight Obito.


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## Dr. White (Jul 9, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Tsukuyomi requires eye contact and there's a possibility that it won't work on Tobirama here since he's an Edo Tensei, Infinite Tsukuyomi didn't affect reincarnated shinobi.


Shisui's sharingan is in a crow, finger genjutsu Tobirama has no knowledge on, as well as long range no eye contact genjutsu. Address those please.

Tsukuyomi needs eye contact but with both contestants being nigh equal in speed and reactions, it isn't impossible to force it.

Tsukuyomi Itachi uses is different. If Koto could work on Itachi I see no reason for it not to work on Tobirama. Also even Tayuya's jutsu although sage enhanced) worked on Itachi.





> Only Madara has shown the ability to differentiate between shadow clones and the original.


With alot of clones. My point is if tobirama makes them infront of the sharingan he can track them from the original. He can also just genjutsu all  3 of them. 

Tobirama isn't gonna make like 20 clones. Hell from what we saw vs Izuna he was going in solo.





> This is baseless. We have only seen him use Edo Tensei techniques once and he did it the moment they came to fight Obito.


We didn't see him use it vs Izuna, and the only time he decided to use it before 2 chapters ago, was for that explosion tag jutsu, which only came out after Juubito started wrecking shit which signifies atleast high diff.


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## Dr. White (Jul 9, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> You think Itachi can beat Tobirama. Then claimed his Kage Bunshin wouldn't be of worth because he can't clone feint on the level of Itachi? I'm merely showing that his Kage Bunshin can be of plenty worth.


Can be of worth =/ perfect counter to genjutsu as you were inferring. I was implying the odds are against tobirama as to who will be clone feinted.



> It's still not at full power so the difference is there.


Negligible. By the man himself.



> What Bunshin feats ? What Genjustu feats that can be casted at long range ? All the real Tobirama has to do is sit Indian style with this eyes closed and use his sensory abilities while his clones do the work.


Being able to create a clone while having his arms trapped with Sasuke's.

Creating two clones before Jonin could even process his jutsu speed.

Clone feinting a Kabuto who had perfect SM, Infra'red vision, and Uzumaki powered sensing. 

Nothing suggest Tobirama can do what Kabuto was doing considering the DNA gap Kabuto had supplementing his skill. Also Kabuto despite being allowed to attack Itachi was still being countered by him. In this fight Itachi can fight back.



> Tobirama can warp in front of Amaterasu and warp away thus taking the flame away.


Lol No. Amaterasu sticks to what it touches lol. If he warps in fornt he gets tagged and burned.

Also Itachi can flank him with amaterasu.


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Can be of worth =/ perfect counter to genjutsu as you were inferring. I was implying the odds are against tobirama as to who will be clone feinted.
> 
> 
> Negligible. By the man himself.
> ...



It's a perfect counter considering Tobirama himself is never ever getting caught on a Genjustu with his eyes closed.

Read OP wrong. They are both Edo , it doesn't matter.

Hebi Sasuke fight ? When did this happen ?

PTS Kakashis reactions aren't even close to someone who can react to Juubito not to mention how Kakashi tricked Itachi using that bout.

When did he clone feint Kabuto

Tobirama doesn't have to have that ability. He can simply have 2 KB backed up by Jounin Edo, and simply sit down and close his eyes and avoid contact all together. FTG + sensing guarantees his real body never even gets seen.

Even though Minato canonically warped off an FRS Enchanced Amateasu ball off his body ?


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## Dominus (Jul 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Shisui's sharingan is in a crow, finger genjutsu Tobirama has no knowledge on, as well as long range no eye contact genjutsu. Address those please.



Both of them have full knowledge here.



> Tsukuyomi needs eye contact but with both contestants being nigh equal in speed and reactions, it isn't impossible to force it.



It isn't impossible, but it will be very hard considering Gai developed a system to fight against Sharingan genjutsu and Tobirama is smarter than Gai and fought the Uchiha for a long time. And if Itachi tries to force eye contact , Tobirama can just teleport away with Hiraishin. Since he's an excellent sensor, he should also be able to sense the building up of chakra and know when Itachi's going to use genjutsu.



> Tsukuyomi Itachi uses is different. If Koto could work on Itachi I see no reason for it not to work on Tobirama. Also even Tayuya's jutsu although sage enhanced) worked on Itachi.



I'm just saying it's a possibility.



> With alot of clones. My point is if tobirama makes them infront of the sharingan he can track them from the original. He can also just genjutsu all  3 of them.



The clones and the original can use the Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu, that way they will all switch places and Itachi won't know which one's which.



> Tobirama isn't gonna make like 20 clones. Hell from what we saw vs Izuna he was going in solo.



How do you know how many clones he's going to make? He maybe didn't feel the need to use clones against Izuna considering he had Hashirama and the other members of the Senju clan to watch his back and to break him out of genjutsu and there could have been clones in that fight, we don't know because we only saw a small part of that battle.



> We didn't see him use it vs Izuna, and the only time he decided to use it before 2 chapters ago, was for that explosion tag jutsu, which only came out after Juubito started wrecking shit which signifies atleast high diff.



I can say here the same I said about Kage Bunshin, he maybe didn't feel the need to use it against Izuna considering he had Hashirama and the other members of the Senju clan to watch his back and to break him out of genjutsu. There are a lot of possibilities, he might have used them, but they were sealed, he maybe didn't have Edo Tensei prepared for that fight. That was before Konoha was even created, he maybe didn't even invent Edo Tensei yet. 

He has Edo Tensei here and will use it because Hashirama and other members of the Senju clan aren't here and he also has full knowledge and knows that this will be a high difficulty fight, there is no reason not to use it.


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## Dr. White (Jul 9, 2014)

> Authoritah said:
> 
> 
> > Both of them have full knowledge here.
> ...


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## Dr. White (Jul 9, 2014)

> Likes boss said:
> 
> 
> > It's a perfect counter considering Tobirama himself is never ever getting caught on a Genjustu with his eyes closed.
> ...


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> > Nothing suggest he can sense like Kabuto stop applying his feat to all general sensors. Kabuto could also see in infrared will blocking off Itachi's vision.
> >
> >
> >
> ...


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## LostSelf (Jul 9, 2014)

I see a 50/50 with Tobirama dominating most of the fight. The man was fast enough to tag Juubito, is the creator of Kage Bunshin and is quite the inteligent fighter. He also has a lot of experience fighting Uchihas and Susano'o while Itachi doesn't have much fighting against Hiraishin.

Tobirama should counter Itachi's arsenal very well, while Itachi should rely on countering most of Tobirama's with Susano'o thanks to his Hiraishin that will allow him to be on a good position to strike down.

However, Itachi's chances of landing Totsuka are as good or a bit better than Tobirama landing a talisman in Itachi's head. Since Tobirama needs to put more effort and to get closer than Itachi, but has an instant jutsu, i say that both have equal chances of managing to tag the other after a very long fight.

If they weren't Edo Tensei i would side with Tobirama for sure. The man looked superior to Itachi (Only limitless Susano'o saves him here), and is more than capable of outlastimg him. Even then, was brought back weaker than his living form, while Itachi, despite probably being weaker as well, had advantage because he could spam something that he wouldn't be able to in real life.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 9, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Why do people think full knowledge automatically means genjutsu isn't going to happen? Sasuke fought with Itachi with plenty of knowledge on Itachi's arsenal, barring Susano'o, and he still got caught in genjutsu twice. Having knowledge helps massively, but Tobirama is still not free of the risk of genjutsu.


And Sasuke knew that he would be able to break Itachi's Tsukuyomi, and Itachi was surprised.




> Umm...
> Are you serious?


Yes infinite chakra and an undying body. Yet we have seen Edo's tire and be destroyed. The chakra pool must replenish the chakra(ET does at a fast rate) but that doesn't make the chakra pool infinitely large. Meaning that Itachi can't just infinitely spam Susanoo, he must drop it and allow his chakra to replenish(ableit a small time frame)


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I see a 50/50 with Tobirama dominating most of the fight. The man was fast enough to tag Juubito, is the creator of Kage Bunshin and is quite the inteligent fighter. He also has a lot of experience fighting Uchihas and Susano'o while Itachi doesn't have much fighting against Hiraishin.
> 
> Tobirama should counter Itachi's arsenal very well, while Itachi should rely on countering most of Tobirama's with Susano'o thanks to his Hiraishin that will allow him to be on a good position to strike down.
> 
> ...



I don't think Tobirama landing a tailsman in Itachis head would be hard at all.

Once he tags him once he can virtually tag him as many times as he wants to by virtue of his god hand speed. Being able to tag Juubito this many times:  Are you serious? 
With one arm before he could get to Hashirama who was this close to Tobirama: Are you serious? 
Puts his hand speed at the level that Itachi couldn't hope to even see. Itachi gets blitzed a million times over and over again. Except everytime Tobirama FTG tags him, he warps to Itachi and tags him 10 more times. He basically can just create 8 KB, have the all warp to Itachis body and josh obliterate him. There's nothing he can do either.


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## Dominus (Jul 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Which doesn't tell Tobirama which crow out of a flock has the sharingan or when it will be deployed.



He doesn't have to look at it and can use clones to destroy it.



> The problem here is that Gai developed a method. This doesn't mean it is flawless, it worked against kakashi. The difference is Itachi uses genjutsu much more often, more obscurely, and more skillfully. Which means that it will used more often than we have seen an uchiha use it before.



I don't remember when did it work on Kakashi after their first encounter?



> You are giving prerequisites from MS techniques to his other genjutsu which isn't fair. Itachi literally caught bee in a genjutsu in under a second's worth of eye contact. Teleporting won't do much especilly because being traped in the genjutsu will interrupt his chakra flow.



You were talking about Tsukuyomi weren't you? I don't think Bee cared that much about getting caught in a genjutsu considering Hachibi can break him out of it in seconds and Tobirama is smarter and more experienced in fighting Uchiha than him. I'm saying if he tries to force eye contact Tobirama can teleport away before the genjutsu.



> He can track them as they switch, because teleporting can still be seen.



There is no way to know which one is going where.



> All maybe's fact of the matter is we haven't seen him spam them IC. I don't see any given reason for more than see 5 - 8 clones,



I'm not sure why do you think he would need that many clones, in the beginning of our discussion I said that he can use them to break him out of genjutsu, he doesn't need 10 clones for that. Still, in the fight against Madara (while Obito was becoming the jinchūriki) he created two clones, but he wanted to create more, he couldn't because of the barrier and because he wasn't at full power.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 10, 2014)

Minato > Tobirama > Izuna > Itachi

The only way Itachi wins this is with a lucky hit from Susanoo.


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## Trojan (Jul 10, 2014)

How do people know that Izuna is stronger than itachi though? 
we only know that he has MS as well. I think it's fair to assume that he has Enton as well
since Tobirama talked about seeing Enton during his lifetime, so I suppose it's Izuna's. 

If that's true, then Izuna has a greater jutsu than the Amaterasu.
and that's all we know. 

He does not have feats or even hype.


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## Dr. White (Jul 10, 2014)

Hussain said:


> How do people know that Izuna is stronger than itachi though?
> we only know that he has MS as well. I think it's fair to assume that he has Enton as well
> since Tobirama talked about seeing Enton during his lifetime, so I suppose it's Izuna's.
> 
> ...



When Hussain is justifiably backing up Itachi, you know there is something wrong.

Izuna > Itachi? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I didn't know we could make positive arguments from no evidence....


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## Dr. White (Jul 10, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> He doesn't have to look at it and can use clones to destroy it.


He doesn't have to but trying to avoid a surprise flock of crows mid combat is kinda hard. They were even enough to distract EMS Sauce. 



> I don't remember when did it work on Kakashi after their first encounter?


Wha? I was talking about the method Gai used to counter sharingan. Kakashi's sharingan genjutsu is < Itahchi's and Itachi uses it way more and his genjutsu can be deployed in more ways.

Tobirama also can't fight blind.





> You were talking about Tsukuyomi weren't you? I don't think Bee cared that much about getting caught in a genjutsu considering Hachibi can break him out of it in seconds and Tobirama is smarter and more experienced in fighting Uchiha than him. I'm saying if he tries to force eye contact Tobirama can teleport away before the genjutsu.


Any evidence to suggest this? He didn't even know he was in a genjutsu which is my point. Itachi needed half a second to catch him off guard. 

Also Tsukuyomi also doesn't have a major charge time being nigh instant as claimed by Kakashi (someone who experienced it) multiple times.





> There is no way to know which one is going where.


Tobirama isn't Minato, he has to tag things before he can teleport there. Itachi is on his speed tier, and has techniques to pressure him off the bat. The likely hood Tobirama successfully creates clones and tags alot of places is very low.



Itachi is just gonna stand there while the clones break him out?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 10, 2014)

Tobirama is a slippery fuck. Itachi won't have it easy with full knowledge, but he ends up soloing tobirama and his edo tensei army.



Dr. White said:


> He doesn't have to but trying to avoid a surprise flock of crows mid combat is kinda hard. They were even enough to distract EMS Sauce.



Crows never dissapoint. They distracted hebi sauce, EMS sauce and perfect sage Kabuto.
Tobirama is gonna be like "omg a flock of bird-"  *eats totsuka to the face*


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## Dominus (Jul 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> He doesn't have to but trying to avoid a surprise flock of crows mid combat is kinda hard. They were even enough to distract EMS Sauce.



Sasuke doesn't use Hiraishin and clones, all Tobirama needs to do is use Hiraishin to get away from the crows  and then use clones and/or water element techniques to destroy them. I'm not sure why you think he would have much trouble with such a jutsu.



> Wha? I was talking about the method Gai used to counter sharingan. Kakashi's sharingan genjutsu is < Itahchi's and Itachi uses it way more and his genjutsu can be deployed in more ways.
> 
> Tobirama also can't fight blind.



You said that if he hits Tobirama with Tsukuyomi he would lose and I said all he has to do is avoid eye contact in a similar way Gai does it and that sensing will also be helpful. All of Itachi's genjutsu are eye techniques, he has only shown finger genjutsu which Tobirama should be able to break out of by himself or with the help of clones/Edo Tensei.



> Any evidence to suggest this? He didn't even know he was in a genjutsu which is my point. Itachi needed half a second to catch him off guard.
> 
> Also Tsukuyomi also doesn't have a major charge time being nigh instant as claimed by Kakashi (someone who experienced it) multiple times.



Bee is confident that  which implies that he didn't pay much attention. And like I said Bee doesn't have much experience in fighting Uchiha and even got caught in a genjutsu by Sasuke (whose genjutsu Obito considers weak), Tobirama is experienced and is also a sensor, I don't see why it would be so difficult for him to avoid eye contact.



> Tobirama isn't Minato, he has to tag things before he can teleport there. Itachi is on his speed tier, and has techniques to pressure him off the bat. The likely hood Tobirama successfully creates clones and tags alot of places is very low.



He doesn't need to mark places, the clones can mark themselves and everybody just switches places with each other. It wouldn't take more than a second to do that.



> Itachi is just gonna stand there while the clones break him out?



He can use clones to distract Itachi while the ninjas he revives break him out of genjutsu or vice versa, breaking out of genjutsu doesn't take more than a second and not to mention that it will be very hard for Itachi to even put him under genjutsu.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 10, 2014)

If you think MS Madara is superior to Itachi, then its fairly evident that MS Izuna is probably stronger than Itachi as well.


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## Dr. White (Jul 10, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Sasuke doesn't use Hiraishin and clones, all Tobirama needs to do is use Hiraishin to get away from the crows  and then use clones and/or water element techniques to destroy them. I'm not sure why you think he would have much trouble with such a jutsu.


Because you aren't looking at it from a tactical standpoint. If Tobirama is actively fighting in battle, and a flock of birds appear at him out of nowhere he may not have time to tend to the birds when dodging things like Susano, Amaterasu, etc.

You actlike Itachi is just gonna summon the birds from the jump, in front of Tobirama's face lol. don't forget Itachi is a tactical genius himself.

I am also just arguing this is a viable way to catch him without him looking in Itachi's eyes.



> You said that if he hits Tobirama with Tsukuyomi he would lose and I said all he has to do is avoid eye contact in a similar way Gai does it and that sensing will also be helpful. All of Itachi's genjutsu are eye techniques, he has only shown finger genjutsu which Tobirama should be able to break out of by himself or with the help of clones/Edo Tensei.


Which is easier said than done, hence why even Asuma had trouble with it. Once again that method has only been effective against Kakashi not sure how you logically apply it to other people using it other than Gai or how you justify if being effective against Itachi.

Once again nothing suggest Tobirama can close hsi eyes and be effective as Kabuto who had other major factors allowing him to do so. Sensing only gives on a general outline of things. Sensors need their eyes to, sensing is just like like an extra pair.




> Bee is confident that  which implies that he didn't pay much attention. And like I said Bee doesn't have much experience in fighting Uchiha and even got caught in a genjutsu by Sasuke (whose genjutsu Obito considers weak), Tobirama is experienced and is also a sensor, I don't see why it would be so difficult for him to avoid eye contact.


Regardless this doesn't mean jack, because Bee already been caught in one prior. He doesn't know much about Uchiha? Prior to fighting Itachi he just fought a MS user....and got caught in a genjutsu. Even if temporarilyy caught it is ludicrous to suggest that he would allow his opponent to do such, because had Itachi been in control Bee could have been eating an Ama to the face instead of shuriken. To say Bee allows himself to get caught is ludicrous.

Half a second of eye contact is all that is needed. You are really saying it will be easy for Tobirama to avoid eye contact throughout the whole fight  have you ever fought someone?





> He doesn't need to mark places, the clones can mark themselves and everybody just switches places with each other. It wouldn't take more than a second to do that.


No it wouldn't summoning clones would take a hand seal,, and their creation time. Than there is them physically moving. What do you think Itachi is doing in this time? Bee who has the speed and reactions to match is cloaked brother in CqC while in base, was completely outspeeded by Itachi twice. His jutsu speed is the best in the manga hands down, and amaterasu takes a second to cast.

but no. Itachi stands there and watches Tobirama cast clones and lesireuly set up FTG with full knowledge... Do you forget it goes both ways?





> He can use clones to distract Itachi while the ninjas he revives break him out of genjutsu or vice versa, breaking out of genjutsu doesn't take more than a second and not to mention that it will be very hard for Itachi to even put him under genjutsu.


-Itachi has clones.
-Clones are fodder to Itachi with MS.

You can't partner break out of Tsukuyomi per Kakashi's analysis, the databook, and KCM Naruto (perfect Jin)'s word.

If Tobirama is caught in a genjutsu even momentarily he is vulnerable to getting Amaterasu'd, or hit with Susano. Same with his clones, and like I said with full knowledge his Edo clones get burnt as soon as their summoned.


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## Trojan (Jul 10, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> If you think MS Madara is superior to Itachi, then its fairly evident that MS Izuna is probably stronger than Itachi as well.



Except MS Madara is superior to MS Izuna.


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## Dominus (Jul 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Because you aren't looking at it from a tactical standpoint. If Tobirama is actively fighting in battle, and a flock of birds appear at him out of nowhere he may not have time to tend to the birds when dodging things like Susano, Amaterasu, etc.



With Hiraishin and clones that can also use Hiraishin, he can avoid all of this.



> You actlike Itachi is just gonna summon the birds from the jump, in front of Tobirama's face lol. don't forget Itachi is a tactical genius himself.
> 
> I am also just arguing this is a viable way to catch him without him looking in Itachi's eyes.



The original doesn't have to look in his eyes, the clones can use Suiton・Suijinheki to protect the original.



> Which is easier said than done, hence why even Asuma had trouble with it. Once again that method has only been effective against Kakashi not sure how you logically apply it to other people using it other than Gai or how you justify if being effective against Itachi.



And Asuma has much experience in fighting Uchiha? Why would it be only effective against Kakashi, not looking at Itachi's eyes leaves him vulnerable only to finger genjutsu which Tobirama can break out by himself or with clones/Edo Tensei.



> Once again nothing suggest Tobirama can close hsi eyes and be effective as Kabuto who had other major factors allowing him to do so. Sensing only gives on a general outline of things. Sensors need their eyes to, sensing is just like like an extra pair.



I didn't state that he can fight with his eyes closed, just by not looking at his eyes.



> Regardless this doesn't mean jack, because Bee already been caught in one prior. He doesn't know much about Uchiha? Prior to fighting Itachi he just fought a MS user....and got caught in a genjutsu. Even if temporarilyy caught it is ludicrous to suggest that he would allow his opponent to do such, because had Itachi been in control Bee could have been eating an Ama to the face instead of shuriken. To say Bee allows himself to get caught is ludicrous.



I didn't say allow, just wouldn't pay nearly as much as attention as someone who isn't a perfect jinchūriki, who knows not to look in his eyes.



> Half a second of eye contact is all that is needed. You are really saying it will be easy for Tobirama to avoid eye contact throughout the whole fight  have you ever fought someone?



Itachi doesn't try to use genjutsu all the time and again Tobirama has fought both Obito and Madara who are genjutsu users and wasn't caught in a genjutsu. Even if he got caught, he would break out of it in seconds.



> No it wouldn't summoning clones would take a hand seal,, and their creation time. Than there is them physically moving. What do you think Itachi is doing in this time? Bee who has the speed and reactions to match is cloaked brother in CqC while in base, was completely outspeeded by Itachi twice. His jutsu speed is the best in the manga hands down, and amaterasu takes a second to cast.



but no. Itachi stands there and watches Tobirama cast clones and lesireuly set up FTG with full knowledge... Do you forget it goes both ways?

When has anyone had a problem making a hand sign?



> -Itachi has clones.
> -Clones are fodder to Itachi with MS.
> 
> You can't partner break out of Tsukuyomi per Kakashi's analysis, the databook, and KCM Naruto (perfect Jin)'s word.
> ...



We are just going around in circles, he will not get hit by Amaterasu because he will avoid eye contact and because he will be able to sense it coming. It takes a second to break him out of other genjutsu and the clones and Edo Tensei ninjas can protect him while he's vulnerable during that one second.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 10, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Except MS Madara is superior to MS Izuna.



They were portrayed as roughly equals. Albeit, Madara was obviously a tad stronger.


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## Trojan (Jul 10, 2014)

When have they ever been portrayed to be roughly equal? 
not as that saying much though since just like izuna, MS Madara is also feat-less. @>@


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 10, 2014)

Hussain said:


> When have they ever been portrayed to be roughly equal?
> not as that saying much though since just like izuna, MS Madara is also feat-less. @>@



Re-read the Itachi flashback to Madara and Izuna. Kishi seemed to portray them as equals. However, if you are going to say MS Itachi > MS Izuna, you might as well be saying MS Itachi = or > MS Madara. Thats just IMO.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 10, 2014)

Izuna would have been stronger than Madara due to Itachi being stronger than Sasuke.


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## Bloo (Jul 10, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And Sasuke knew that he would be able to break Itachi's Tsukuyomi, and Itachi was surprised.


That Tsukuyomi was much less aggressive than past Tsukuyomi we've seen from Itachi. And, it was highly probable that Itachi let Sasuke break it since he was planning for Sasuke to win. Sasuke still got caught in it with full knowledge. What my post stated was that full knowledge does not mean you will completely avoid genjutsu.


> Yes infinite chakra and an undying body. Yet we have seen Edo's tire and be destroyed. The chakra pool must replenish the chakra(ET does at a fast rate) but that doesn't make the chakra pool infinitely large. Meaning that Itachi can't just infinitely spam Susanoo, he must drop it and allow his chakra to replenish(ableit a small time frame)


He spammed MS more than EMS Sasuke. He casually used Amaterasu and Susano'o in his fight with Nagato and then ran off to do some more in his fight with Kabuto. Compare that to his living stamina and it's enough to support Madara's contention that it provides infinite chakra.


Elite Uchiha said:


> Minato > Tobirama > Izuna > Itachi
> 
> The only way Itachi wins this is with a lucky hit from Susanoo.


What makes you believe Minato is stronger than Tobirama? By feats and facts, I would definitely rank Tobirama above Minato. He has a much more diverse arsenal and is the inventor of basically Minato's only concerning jutsu—Hiraishin.

However, I still don't understand why people are assuming Izuna is stronger than Itachi. I'm not saying Itachi is stronger. I'm simply stating that it is stupid to say a man we have no feats on is stronger than another with very strong feats simply based on name (unless said person is Hagoromo).


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 10, 2014)

I'm just gonna leave this here  
concerted


----------



## Trojan (Jul 10, 2014)

Bloo said:


> What makes you believe Minato is stronger than Tobirama? By feats and facts, I would definitely rank Tobirama above Minato. He has a much more diverse arsenal and is the inventor of basically Minato's only concerning jutsu—Hiraishin.



Minato is superior to Tobirama by hype, feats, and portrayal. 
Even if he invented FTG, Minato is still better than him as he admitted that himself...

and FTG is the best thing Tobirama has.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 10, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Minato is superior to Tobirama by hype, feats, and portrayal.
> Even if he invented FTG, Minato is still better than him as he admitted that himself...
> 
> and FTG is the best thing Tobirama has.


Tobirama invented Kage Bunshin, FTG, very impressive Suiton, and Edō Tensei. Secondly, why was Minato even being brought into this conversation? This thread has _nothing_ to do with him.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 10, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Tobirama invented Kage Bunshin, FTG, very impressive Suiton, and Edō Tensei. Secondly, why was Minato even being brought into this conversation? This thread has _nothing_ to do with him.



and how does that matter?
Minato invented the Rassengan, and Naruto use that, does that mean Minato is stronger than his child? 

+
Minato's jutsus are actually more diverse than Tobirama's. 

- I dunno. You asked about him. 
but I think he ( Elite Uchiha) put him there because he's Minato's fan.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I'm just gonna leave this here
> concerted


Why Dr.Whte. Why do you take Anime-Filler seriously.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Why Dr.Whte. Why do you take Anime-Filler seriously.



To be fair Kishi takes a lot of things from the fillers as well.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 10, 2014)

Hussain said:


> To be fair Kishi takes a lot of things from the fillers as well.


Like what?


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Why Dr.Whte. Why do you take Anime-Filler seriously.



I don't I'm just showing how easily one can make eye contact in a split second when on equal terms in speed and reactions. Apparently the anime guys (who apparently have alot more time with Kishi talking Naruto than any of us do) agree


----------



## Bloo (Jul 10, 2014)

Hussain said:


> and how does that matter?
> Minato invented the Rassengan, and Naruto use that, does that mean Minato is stronger than his child?
> 
> +
> ...


I probably shouldn't have used the word invented, simply because I meant more for those being other strong jutsus in his arsenal in general.

If this were a different thread, I would love to discuss this, but it's entirely off-topic here.

Most likely.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Like what?



1- Riga (or what ever the heck his name was) One of the swordsmen of Kiri.
Even his sword and its abilities are exactly the same like in the anime.

2- Tobirama's water jutsu that he used to cut the Tree's branches, he in fact used it in the Anime
against Hiruzen.

3- I believe in one of the fillers in part 1, there was a guy who can summon sharks, and those sharks
were moving inside a ball-like water jutsu. Which became latter one of Kisame's jutsu.

Edit:

1

That's what in top of my head currently...


----------



## Turrin (Jul 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I don't I'm just showing how easily one can make eye contact in a split second when on equal terms in speed and reactions. Apparently the anime guys (who apparently have alot more time with Kishi talking Naruto than any of us do) agree


Wow, just wow. That fight scene shows someone trolling sharingan-genjutsu by simply closing their eyes at the last second. Going off that fight Konohamaru can counter that shit no diff. 

So If you want to go off that shit be my guest


----------



## Turrin (Jul 10, 2014)

Hussain said:


> 1- Riga (or what ever the heck his name was) One of the swordsmen of Kiri.
> Even his sword and its abilities are exactly the same like in the anime.
> 
> 2- Tobirama's water jutsu that he used to cut the Tree's branches, he in fact used it in the Anime
> ...


Tobirama never used that Suiton against Hiruzen

Don't know about the shark thing and Kishi does throw in filler characters as a nod to the Anime/Movies from time to time, but that's nothing, but fan service. The way the Anime has depicted fights never makes any sense, when it's filler content and is never accurate to how the fights play out.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Wow, just wow. That fight scene shows someone trolling sharingan-genjutsu by simply closing their eyes at the last second. Going off that fight Konohamaru can counter that shit no diff.
> 
> So If you want to go off that shit be my guest



 Turrin.... The diedara shit I could excuse because some people misinterpret things on paper.

But..The video clearly shows Izuna breaking the sword clash and quickly gaining eye contact, which allows him to land the successive blows, hence the "shing "sound effect which signififes genjutsu.

Are you good bro?


----------



## Bloo (Jul 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Like what?


There are actually a lot of examples. Unconvincingly, I can't remember too many of them off the top of my head. But, Deidara's centipede clay piece was actually originally used in the anime before it was seen in the manga (its first manga appearance was when he fought Itachi in his flashback).


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama never used that Suiton against Hiruzen
> 
> Don't know about the shark thing and Kishi does throw in filler characters as a nod to the Anime/Movies from time to time, but that's nothing, but fan service. The way the Anime has depicted fights never makes any sense, when it's filler content and is never accurate to how the fights play out.



3:42


----------



## Trojan (Jul 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama never used that Suiton against Hiruzen
> 
> Don't know about the shark thing and Kishi does throw in filler characters as a nod to the Anime/Movies from time to time, but that's nothing, but fan service. The way the Anime has depicted fights never makes any sense, when it's filler content and is never accurate to how the fights play out.



[YOUTUBE]iFOen2IiAA0[/YOUTUBE]

3:41

Edit: it seems it does not work, but never mind, Dr. White already putted it to you...

- 1
That shark. 

- Naruto in the filler also used his huge FRS against the sound 5, just for Kishi to give it to him
against the Juubi after that. @>@


----------



## Turrin (Jul 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Turrin.... The diedara shit I could excuse because some people misinterpret things on paper.
> 
> But..The video clearly shows Izuna breaking the sword clash and quickly gaining eye contact, which allows him to land the successive blows, hence the "shing "sound effect which signififes genjutsu.
> 
> Are you good bro?


Are we talking about catching someone in Genjutsu or creating an opening for an insignificant blow?

Because the video shows Genjutsu being trolled. It does show it creating an opening for an insignificant blow though.

@Hussain

- Can't see the video
- Refuse to waste my time reading about filler shark
- Larger FRS was a given. Anime went there because it was a given, not Kishi copying the Anime

Again it's reaching greatly to try and use filler-anime-fights to justify any stand-point.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Are we talking about catching someone in Genjutsu or creating an opening for an insignificant blow?
> 
> Because the video shows Genjutsu being trolled. It does show it creating an opening for an insignificant blow though.



Izuna didn't even have it activated and still got it up in time to bind him hence why he can't even block the subsequent blows. Izuna used it to gain an opening, which he followed up with a katon though unsuccessful.

Tobirama is dead if we replace Itachi with Izuna who only needed a fraction of that time in the video to get Bee for multiple panels. Not that the video is a cannon representation, but considering Tobirama and Izuna were near equals like Mads and Hashi it's hardly improbable.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 11, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Izuna didn't even have it activated and still got it up in time to bind him hence why he can't even block the subsequent blows. Izuna used it to gain an opening, which he followed up with a katon though unsuccessful.
> 
> Tobirama is dead if we replace Itachi with Izuna who only needed a fraction of that time in the video to get Bee for multiple panels. Not that the video is a cannon representation, but considering Tobirama and Izuna were near equals like Mads and Hashi it's hardly improbable.


Bind him? The Genjutsu didn't hit Tobirama at all. He simply closed his eyes before Izuna could cast it. Izuna than landed an insignificant blow while Tobirama's guard was partially disrupted. Than Tobirama proceeded to low-diff Izuna the moment he pulled out FTG. 

The video shows Izuna's attempt at winning through Genjutsu failing, while despite Izuna having tons of experience facing Tobirama and FTG, the moment Tobirama even used the most basic FTG usage he was WTFPWN'd. This does not bode well for Itachi in the slighest, as it shows Tobirama can handle Genjutsu just fine, but an Uchiha whose even more experienced going up against Tobirama and FTG, can't handle FTG at all.

Going off that video i'd conclude Tobirama low diffs Itachi, if not outright stomps him the moment FTG comes into play. 

Lucky for you I think that video is a piece of shit, and makes no sense as I don't think FTG would so casually own Izuna or even Itachi for that matter.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 11, 2014)

Dude Idk what you are watching but if you see low diff from that fight, we should prbabl agree to disagree.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 11, 2014)

We cannot be taking anime seriously now. That's ridiculous.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 11, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> We cannot be taking anime seriously now. That's ridiculous.



Did you read my first response?


----------



## Veracity (Jul 11, 2014)

No. But if it has anything to do with incorporating the anime with the manga then it should be disregarded.

There's also the fact that the Tobirama that dicked on Izuna is Completley different then Hokage Tobirama and Edo Tobirama.


----------



## Dominus (Jul 11, 2014)

Tobirama can simply teleport away from Itachi if a thing like that happens.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 11, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Tobirama can simply teleport away from Itachi if a thing like that happens.


If a thing like what happens? Genjutsu? Itachi's victims do not realize they are in genjutsu for a majority of the time. And if the jutsu being used is Tsukuyomi, then there is no way for Tobirama to counter it. Itachi's tsukuyomi allows him to manipulate time and he executes it within a single second real-time.


----------



## Dominus (Jul 11, 2014)

Bloo said:


> If a thing like what happens? Genjutsu? Itachi's victims do not realize they are in genjutsu for a majority of the time. And if the jutsu being used is Tsukuyomi, then there is no way for Tobirama to counter it. Itachi's tsukuyomi allows him to manipulate time and he executes it within a single second real-time.



No, I'm saying if Itachi tries to force eye contact Tobirama can avoid it with Hiraishin before Itachi uses his genjutsu and Tobirama is also a sensor so he shouldn't have a problem knowing when Itachi is going to use it.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 11, 2014)

Tobirama doesn't even have to be on the battlefield to begin with to fall succumb to Genjustu. You have to realize that against Izuna Tobirama wasn't even a fraction of the power he was as opposed to Hokage Tobirama.

If we go by that anime shit just presented to us, then Tobirama clearly didn't have Kage Bunshin considering he would have been intelligent enough to never engage a MS user up close. Tobirama also didn't have FTG lvl 2 at that time. As basic as it seems , Kishi never envisioned him having that. If he had such, Hokage Tobirama would have those shits prepped  everytime he stepped on the battlefield, yet minato is the only person shown and known to do such. Which makes sense considering Tobirama neglected to use such until he fought Sage Madara.


----------



## Rain (Jul 11, 2014)

Itachi wins via MS with mid diff.

Itachi can destroy kunai with Hōsenka Tsumabeni or deflect them with his own kunai (G.O.A.T skills with weapons) thus vastly diminish FTG's full potential.

Tobirama hasn't shown reactions on par or better than V2 Raikage, thus he is suspectible to Amaterasu GG.

It will be very hard for Tobirama to fight without looking Itachi in the eyes, because he won't know when Amaterasu is coming. He is a sensor, but that doesn't make up for the loss of eyesight, especially not against someone so good with clones as Itachi. 

This is without taking into account Susano'o. Itachi low-diffs with Susano'o.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 11, 2014)

Tobirama has dimension level sensing...he can fight with his eye closed.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 11, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Tobirama has dimension level sensing...he can fight with his eye closed.



The fuck? karin has nigh omnipotent sensing but she can't do so either. SM powered Uzumaki sensing > Really Refined Regular sensing.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 11, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tobirama doesn't even have to be on the battlefield to begin with to fall succumb to Genjustu. You have to realize that against Izuna* Tobirama wasn't even a fraction of the power he was as opposed to Hokage Tobirama.*



how do you know?


----------



## Veracity (Jul 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> how do you know?



Why would he ? It's obvious that he was weaker way back before Madara even obtained his EMS. Tobirama got stronger just like Hashirama and Madara got stronger.


----------



## Dominus (Jul 12, 2014)

Rain said:


> Itachi can destroy kunai with Hōsenka Tsumabeni or deflect them with his own kunai (G.O.A.T skills with weapons) thus vastly diminish FTG's full potential.



Nothing suggests it would destroy the kunai and Tobirama can also mark the ground, clones and Edo Tensei shinobi. 



> Tobirama hasn't shown reactions on par or better than V2 Raikage, thus he is suspectible to Amaterasu GG.



It wasn't stated anywhere that you need to have reactions on par with the Raikage to be able to avoid it. Tobirama reacted to Jūbito's attack and managed to put 4 explosive tags and a Hiraishin mark when he attacked him. He also avoided Madara's attack who had the Rinnegan and SM. Tobirama is also a sensor and can sense the building up of chakra and Itachi's eye will bleed so he can also know by those things when he's going to use Amaterasu.

Even if Itachi somehow managed to hit him with Amaterasu, Tobirama can teleport once it hits him but simply without the black flames just like how Minato did it .



> It will be very hard for Tobirama to fight without looking Itachi in the eyes, because he won't know when Amaterasu is coming. He is a sensor, but that doesn't make up for the loss of eyesight, especially not against someone so good with clones as Itachi.



He can focus on his feet and sense Amaterasu coming and also see his eye bleeding before he uses it. 



> This is without taking into account Susano'o. Itachi low-diffs with Susano'o.



They are on the same level and Itachi certainly has a chance to win this, but he isn't defeating him with low difficulty.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 12, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Nothing suggests it would destroy the kunai and Tobirama can also mark the ground, clones and Edo Tensei shinobi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Black flames were never on minato.


----------



## Dominus (Jul 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Black flames were never on minato.



I'm pretty sure they hit him with their attack.


----------



## Rain (Jul 12, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Nothing suggests it would destroy the kunai and Tobirama can also mark the ground, clones and Edo Tensei shinobi.



Why wouldn't a chakra-enhanced fire destroy/melt a piece of steel? That's how weapons are made in the first place.



> It wasn't stated anywhere that you need to have reactions on par with the Raikage to be able to avoid it. Tobirama reacted to Jūbito's attack and managed to put 4 explosive tags and a Hiraishin mark when he attacked him. He also avoided Madara's attack who had the Rinnegan and SM. Tobirama is also a sensor and can sense the building up of chakra and Itachi's eye will bleed so he can also know by those things when he's going to use Amaterasu.



Raikage knew when to move because he saw Sasuke's eyes bleeding. Raikage was at that time immune to Sasuke's genjutsu. Tobirama can't look anywhere near Itachi's eyes because Itachi will force eye contact. He can sense Amaterasu, but he won't know when exactly to move, if he moves too early, Itachi won't fire it off at all and Tobirama is at a loss again.



> Even if Itachi somehow managed to hit him with Amaterasu, Tobirama can teleport once it hits him but simply without the black flames just like how Minato did it .



i don't think Minato was hit by that attack. Btw, that wasn't Amaterasu, just an ordinary enton.



> He can focus on his feet and sense Amaterasu coming and also see his eye bleeding before he uses it.



Tobirama is a genius, but there's nothing to suggest he can immediately fully adapt to such a fightning style. Gai trained his whole life to become proficient at it. Itachi can take advantage of Tobirama's lack of eyesight and trick him into timing Hiraishin to dodge Amaterasu, while his clone cuts him down/traps him into a genjutsu.



> They are on the same level and Itachi certainly has a chance to win this, but he isn't defeating him with low difficulty.



In my opinion, Tobirama is on the same level as SM Jiraiya, Minato, Kabuto, Killer Bee...and all those guys are inferior to Itachi.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 12, 2014)

itachi is barely hebi Sasuke level/ 
and he lose against base Tayuya's level. 


> Why would he ? It's obvious that he was weaker way back before Madara even obtained his EMS. Tobirama got stronger just like Hashirama and Madara got stronger.



Tobirama is not Hashirama or Madara, he is far inferior. At that time against Izuna, he had his FTG
which is arguably his greatest jutsu. At most, he just obtained his weak ET after that...


----------



## Dominus (Jul 12, 2014)

Rain said:


> Why wouldn't a chakra-enhanced fire destroy/melt a piece of steel? That's how weapons are made in the first place.



Once it hits the kunai, the shuriken (from which the jutsu is made) and the kunai won't go in the same direction, it won't stick to the kunai forever. Even if the kunai were on fire, Tobirama can use water element techniques to extinguish the flames.



> Raikage knew when to move because he saw Sasuke's eyes bleeding. Raikage was at that time immune to Sasuke's genjutsu. Tobirama can't look anywhere near Itachi's eyes because Itachi will force eye contact. He can sense Amaterasu, but he won't know when exactly to move, if he moves too early, Itachi won't fire it off at all and Tobirama is at a loss again.



What are you talking about, he isn't immune to genjutsu, we saw Madara trapping him under genjutsu. How is Tobirama at loss if Itachi doesn't fire it at all? Amaterasu isn't hitting a sensor with the Hiraishin. 



> i don't think Minato was hit by that attack. Btw, that wasn't Amaterasu, just an ordinary enton.



Are you blind? You can see him getting hit by it. Enton = Amaterasu with controlled shape. 



> Tobirama is a genius, but there's nothing to suggest he can immediately fully adapt to such a fightning style. Gai trained his whole life to become proficient at it. Itachi can take advantage of Tobirama's lack of eyesight and trick him into timing Hiraishin to dodge Amaterasu, while his clone cuts him down/traps him into a genjutsu.



Tobirama has been fighting Uchiha much longer than Gai, his whole life. His clones can't trap him into genjutsu if Tobirama is not looking at their eyes. Tobirama can also make clones. 



Also I'm not sure why you think he would have that much problem with Amaterasu when he has apparently already dealt with Enton/Amaterasu before.



> In my opinion, Tobirama is on the same level as SM Jiraiya, Minato, Kabuto, Killer Bee...and all those guys are inferior to Itachi.



Itachi is on their level as well.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jul 12, 2014)

Tobirama spent his entire life fighting the uchiha. Most of his jutsus and jutsu creations are based at working around genjutsu and amatarusa/ enton control. Besides edo tensie wiping the battle field clear he probably used the zombies to tag susanoo or blow up in front of them. Eventually draining the users chakra while avoiding with FTG


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 12, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Tobirama spent his entire life fighting the uchiha. Most of his jutsus and jutsu creations are based at working around genjutsu and amatarusa/ enton control. Besides edo tensie wiping the battle field clear he probably used the zombies to tag susanoo or blow up in front of them. Eventually draining the users chakra while avoiding with FTG



-Doesn't mean anything in front of a Genjutsu Master

-Tobirama shouldn't even have knowledge on Ama seeing as Madara hasn't even shown it and Izuna is featless.

-The third is just pure speculation.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 12, 2014)

Tobirama talked about Enton, so he must have seen it before.
Enton >>> Amatarsu as stated in the manga.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama talked about Enton, so he must have seen it before.
> Enton >>> Amatarsu as stated in the manga.



Panel?

Also they are the same temperature, Enton can just be formed.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 12, 2014)

_knocked him 100 meters away_


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jul 12, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -Doesn't mean anything in front of a Genjutsu Master
> 
> -Tobirama shouldn't even have knowledge on Ama seeing as Madara hasn't even shown it and Izuna is featless.
> 
> -The third is just pure speculation.



Tobirama talked about enton control thus izuna or some other uchiha had it.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 12, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I'm pretty sure they hit him with their attack.



 He got teleported the instant FRS/enton made contact with him. Which isn't amaterasu anyways.


----------



## Dominus (Jul 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He got teleported the instant FRS/enton made contact with him. Which isn't amaterasu anyways.



That's what I was suggesting, that even if he somehow couldn't avoid it, he can teleport away from it the moment it makes contact with him. Enton allows the user to change the shape of the black flames into a shield, sword, arrow, etc. while Amaterasu is just the black flames.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 12, 2014)

The problem is amaterasu isn't a projectile like enton frs was. Tobirama cant warp something that is summoned onto him.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 12, 2014)

The Amatersu is not a summon to begin with. That's how A dodge it, and Obito stopped it.
It must go the distance to its target...


----------



## Rain (Jul 12, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Once it hits the kunai, the shuriken (from which the jutsu is made) and the kunai won't go in the same direction, it won't stick to the kunai forever. Even if the kunai were on fire, Tobirama can use water element techniques to extinguish the flames.



That's pure speculation. They can fall at the same place upon the hit and fire spreads around. Also Itachi can use his katon after Tobirama throws the kunai on the ground and destroy them easily. Itachi can outspeed Tobirama's suitons with his own thanks to Sharingan or just burn him with Amaterasu while the latter is making hand seals.



> What are you talking about, he isn't immune to genjutsu, we saw Madara trapping him under genjutsu. How is Tobirama at loss if Itachi doesn't fire it at all? Amaterasu isn't hitting a sensor with the Hiraishin.



Sasuke's genjutsu mastery at that time clearly wasn't enough to threaten Raikage. 

A sensor with Hiraishin who doesn't know exactly the moment Amaterasu will spawn on him will die.



> Are you blind? You can see him getting hit by it. Enton = Amaterasu with controlled shape.



You are right, he got hit. But that doesn't matter here because Amaterasu is not Enton and Tobirama is not a regenerating zombie.. Amaterasu is instant and spawns at user's eyesight. Amaterasu is what Itachi used against Cerberus. Enton is what Sasuke used against Gaara. Now compare those two attacks. The only advantage of Enton is that the user can manipulate it's shape and use it for defense.



> Tobirama has been fighting Uchiha much longer than Gai, his whole life. His clones can't trap him into genjutsu if Tobirama is not looking at their eyes. Tobirama can also make clones.



There's not a single indication in the manga that Tobirama can fight against a Sharingan user just by looking at their feet. He may have had other means to defend against genjutsu, but that's not shown.



> Also I'm not sure why you think he would have that much problem with Amaterasu when he has apparently already dealt with Enton/Amaterasu before.



Amaterasu=/=Enton. Do you think Tobirama is more resistant against fire than fire-resistant Toad mouth? He will die the moment Amaterasu spawns on him.


----------



## Dominus (Jul 12, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> The problem is amaterasu isn't a projectile like enton frs was. Tobirama cant warp something that is summoned onto him.



[sp][/sp]

This suggests that Hussain is right and I'm not sure why you think he wouldn't be able to teleport away from Amaterasu even if it didn't travel towards him.


----------



## Dominus (Jul 12, 2014)

Rain said:


> That's pure speculation. They can fall at the same place upon the hit and fire spreads around. Also Itachi can use his katon after Tobirama throws the kunai on the ground and destroy them easily. Itachi can outspeed Tobirama's suitons with his own thanks to Sharingan or just burn him with Amaterasu while the latter is making hand seals.



[sp=No, it isn't speculation and Sasuke and Itachi were right beside each other in this instance][/sp]
Again, he can also mark the ground, clones and Edo Tensei shinobi.



> Sasuke's genjutsu mastery at that time clearly wasn't enough to threaten Raikage.



It threatened Danzō (a sharingan user) and Killer Bee (a perfect jinchūriki), nothing suggests Raikage has a better defense against genjutsu than them.



> A sensor with Hiraishin who doesn't know exactly the moment Amaterasu will spawn on him will die.



How does he not know when it's going move when Obito who is also a sensor could?



> You are right, he got hit. But that doesn't matter here because Amaterasu is not Enton and Tobirama is not a regenerating zombie.. Amaterasu is instant and spawns at user's eyesight. Amaterasu is what Itachi used against Cerberus. Enton is what Sasuke used against Gaara. Now compare those two attacks. The only advantage of Enton is that the user can manipulate it's shape and use it for defense.



Tobirama is an Edo Tensei here, it's not instant. You can see it traveling here.
[sp][/sp]



> There's not a single indication in the manga that Tobirama can fight against a Sharingan user just by looking at their feet. He may have had other means to defend against genjutsu, but that's not shown.



The fact that he fought against a MS user and that he defeated him shows you that he does have a genjutsu defense, it doesn't matter what it is, what matters is that he does have it.



> Amaterasu=/=Enton. Do you think Tobirama is more resistant against fire than fire-resistant Toad mouth? He will die the moment Amaterasu spawns on him.



Amaterasu won't hit him in the first place, Karin survived it and Tobirama is a teleporting Edo Tensei who is also a sensor, there is no way he's going down to Amaterasu.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> how do you know?





Grimmjowsensei said:


> He got teleported the instant FRS/enton made contact with him. Which isn't amaterasu anyways.



What? Why couldn't Tobirama virtually do the same thing ? Minato got dead on hit with an Enton infused FRS, and came out not even scratched. That's because he warped the moment it but his body. Tobirama can do that casually , or he can just warp away before it hits his body.


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## Trojan (Jul 12, 2014)

How do you know Tobirama can do Minato's feats, when he does not have those feats?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 12, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -Why?
> -Finger Genjutsu (which even if Tobirama can break will still take time)
> -Crow Genjutsu
> -Ranged Genjutsu



- Tobirama isn't a Chuunin. 

- That idiotic Genjutsu trick is the thing which allows shinobi to know they're in Genjutsu. That's how someone as inexperienced as Naruto and as experienced as Bee knew they're Genjutsu. I don't understand how sending a signal that Tobirama is within Genjutsu helps Itachi.

- Tobirama knows how Genjutsu, specifically Sharingan Genjutsu, works.



> Amaterasu also counters tagged objects and Tobirama getting to close.



Not true. This is a guy who fought people who were severely above Itachi's MS skill; he knew of Kagutsuchi. If he can handle such superior MS users, then Itachi's minor Amaterasu isn't a problem.



> Hell Itachi with katons and superior clone feint game (feinted a superior sensor in Kabuto) can deal with his Hirashin Game IMO ontop of genjutsu.



Poor reasoning. Tobirama has clones, which can use Hiraishin, and has Suiton to counter the Katon.

Itachi never feinted Kabuto; the latter forgot he had horns.


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## Veracity (Jul 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> How do you know Tobirama can do Minato's feats, when he does not have those feats?



Cause it's just FTG. Can you please stop being a Minato wanker for a bit and realize that basic FTG between the two is completely identical.


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## Rain (Jul 12, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> [sp=No, it isn't speculation and Sasuke and Itachi were right beside each other in this instance][/sp]
> Again, he can also mark the ground, clones and Edo Tensei shinobi.



They fell next to each other bro, if only one of those was flaming kunai. it would spread to others.



> It threatened Danzō (a sharingan user) and Killer Bee (a perfect jinchūriki), nothing suggests Raikage has a better defense against genjutsu than them.



Danzo's Sharingan was covered at the time. Raikage was surprised when he got genjutsu'd by Madara, he thought he was resistant which means he does have some kind of a defense.

If Sasuke's genjutsu was good enough, he would've used it on Raikage. Raikage looked him in the eyes.



> How does he not know when it's going move when Obito who is also a sensor could?



If you are talking about that instance when Itachi transcripted Amaterasu in Sasuke's sharingan, that's because he directly stared into Sasuke's eyes and saw them bleeding. If it's something more recent, link me.



> Tobirama is an Edo Tensei here, it's not instant. You can see it traveling here.



I just now see they're both Edo Tensei. Itachi literally stomps with Amaterasu spam, but he will need Susano'o to end it.



> [sp][/sp]



I don't see it.



> The fact that he fought against a MS user and that he defeated him shows you that he does have a genjutsu defense, it doesn't matter what it is, what matters is that he does have it.



It doesn't. Obito almost never uses genjutsu, yet he is a MS user. Madara too. 



> Amaterasu won't hit him in the first place, Karin survived it and Tobirama is a teleporting Edo Tensei who is also a sensor, there is no way he's going down to Amaterasu.



Karin survived Sasuke's Amaterasu. Itachi's Amaterasu incapacitated Cerberus and destroyed fire-resistant toad.


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## Trojan (Jul 12, 2014)

so, let me put it like this. According to your logic

Itachi's Susanoo = EMS Madara's PS = Rinnegan Sasuke's PS. Because they are all susanoos.
Yamato's Buddha = Hashirama's Buddha, because they are both wooden Buddha.
Jiraiya's SM = Minato's SM = Naruto's SM = Kabuto's SM = Hashirama's SM = Hagoromo's SM. They are all SM.
Tobirama's ET = Oro's ET in part 1 = Oro's ET in part 2 = Kabuto's ET. They are all ET. 
The Bijuus' TBBs = each other = Juubi's TBB = Naruto's Mini TBB because they are all TBBs. 

Do you need me to go on and on?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 12, 2014)

Itachi's Susano'o > Perfect Susano'o

Kaguya's immortal son said so.


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## Trojan (Jul 12, 2014)

It does not matter, it still does not mean they are equal because they are susanoos, does it? 
the funny part that he was telling me that Hashirama's wood is stronger than Madara's. Even though
the feet Madara accomplished is better, and there was no statement stated otherwise. 

However, the logic shifted when it came to Tobirama.


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## Dominus (Jul 12, 2014)

Rain said:


> They fell next to each other bro, if only one of those was flaming kunai. it would spread to others.



The flames aren't big enough nor close enough. And again you're ignoring that he doesn't have to mark only kunai.



> Danzo's Sharingan was covered at the time. Raikage was surprised when he got genjutsu'd by Madara, he thought he was resistant which means he does have some kind of a defense.
> If Sasuke's genjutsu was good enough, he would've used it on Raikage. Raikage looked him in the eyes.



There is no reason to discuss whether this is true (and it's not), none of these shinobi have anything to do with this thread. Tobirama has experience with such techniques, is a sensor and Tobirama's Hiraishin>A's Shunshin so there is no reason to think he would get caught by Amaterasu.



> If you are talking about that instance when Itachi transcripted Amaterasu in Sasuke's sharingan, that's because he directly stared into Sasuke's eyes and saw them bleeding. If it's something more recent, link me.







> I just now see they're both Edo Tensei. Itachi literally stomps with Amaterasu spam, but he will need Susano'o to end it.



That is the same as saying Tobirama blitzes Itachi with Hiraishin.



> I don't see it.



[sp=You can see Amaterasu getting closer which implies that it isn't instant, but that it's traveling]

[/sp]



> It doesn't. Obito almost never uses genjutsu, yet he is a MS user. Madara too.



It doesn't matter how often they use it, he still knows that he simply doesn't have to look at the Uchiha's eyes and he's safe.



> Karin survived Sasuke's Amaterasu. Itachi's Amaterasu incapacitated Cerberus and destroyed fire-resistant toad.



Because it burned for a long time, I'm implying that Tobirama will teleport away from it once it hits him and it won't even hit him because he has experience with the black flames, is an excellent sensor and has the fastest jutsu in the manga. Why do you ignore the things I say and only focus on the little things?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 12, 2014)

Itachi will probably fall for one of Tobirama's Edo Tensei based jutsu.



Strategoob said:


> Itachi's Susano'o > Perfect Susano'o
> 
> Kaguya's immortal son said so.



That never happened, dear goob.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 12, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi will probably fall for one of Tobirama's Edo Tensei based jutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> That never happened, dear goob.



No he is right

BZ said itachi is invincible. Because of legendary weapons logically his susnaoo would have to>PS since not even PS is invincible

and the data book said itachi  susnaoo had perfect defense and perfect offense as we'll

We can't just ignore manga fact cause you don't have a good opinion of a character that's ridiculous.


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## StickaStick (Jul 12, 2014)

KnightGhost said:


> No he is right
> 
> BZ said itachi is invincible. Because of legendary weapons logically his susnaoo would have to>PS since not even PS is invincible
> 
> ...



Two things
1) No limits fallacy
2) BZ didn't even know what Susanoo was

That's not even considering the fact that we know he's not invincilbe because there are numerous examples where even turtled up in his Susanoo w/ Yata Mirror he still loses, in some cases relatively easily.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 12, 2014)

The Format said:


> Two things
> 1) No limits fallacy
> 2) BZ didn't even know what Susanoo was
> 
> That's not even considering the fact that we know he's not invincilbe because there are numerous examples where even turtled up in his Susanoo w/ Yata Mirror he still loses, in some cases relatively easily.



Two things
1)Whining about no limt fallacy does not change manga fact

2) doesn't doesn't change is knowledge on the weapons and there impact

Please bring these examples that anybody has ever gotten pass yata mirror please bring a example where he used yata mirrior in a fight and lost.

Oh that's right you won't find them cause they don't exist


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 12, 2014)

KnightGhost said:


> No he is right



No he is wrong.



> BZ said itachi is invincible. Because of legendary weapons logically his susnaoo would have to>PS since not even PS is invincible



Legendary items all final form half Susanoo possess doesn't make Itachi invincible. It makes him invincible in that instance.



> and the data book said itachi  susnaoo had perfect defense and perfect offense as we'll



It said Susanoo had perfect defence.



> We can't just ignore manga fact cause you don't have a good opinion of a character that's ridiculous.



Except you're the one ignoring manga facts. Your opinion of the character in question (Itachi) seems to force you to skew manga facts out of context.


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## StickaStick (Jul 12, 2014)

KnightGhost said:


> Two things
> 1)Whining about no limt fallacy does not change manga fact


Manga fact =/= statement laded with hyperbole. 

Also, ppl need to quit acting like BZ's knowledge is infallible. 



> 2) doesn't doesn't change is knowledge on the weapons and there impact


It absolutely brings it into question. BZ claims Itachi to be "invincible" and yet is analyzing Susanoo on the fly? 



> Please bring these examples that anybody has ever gotten pass yata mirror please bring a example where he used yata mirrior in a fight and lost.


No, because it's virtually featless sans boucning Kirin.


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## Veracity (Jul 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> so, let me put it like this. According to your logic
> 
> Itachi's Susanoo = EMS Madara's PS = Rinnegan Sasuke's PS. Because they are all susanoos.
> Yamato's Buddha = Hashirama's Buddha, because they are both wooden Buddha.
> ...



Are you serious? That's completely different from FTG. FTG is instantaneous. The only reason Minato could be better at such would be by being more proficient( ; FTG lvl 2, marked Kunai, space time barrier), but other then that his FTG is no faster or no better then Tobiramas. Minato used BASE FTG to warp away from the Enton FRS. Tobirama could do the same.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 12, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No he is wrong.



More like you can't accept reality but that's fine



> Legendary items all final form half Susanoo possess doesn't make Itachi invincible. It makes him invincible in that instance.



I don't really understand what your saying here in any case it states in the manga the legendary weapons make him invincible whether you in other fans accept this reality is different but facts are facts your clearly trying to create your own rules.



> It said Susanoo had perfect defence.



Go read the data book before you reply here again you will only embarrass  yourself with your lack of knowledge . Clearly said the combination of TS and YM made gave  susnaoo perfect offense and perfect defense. 




> Except you're the one ignoring manga facts. Your opinion of the character in question (Itachi) seems to force you to skew manga facts out of context.



Why don't you tell from which context in taking things outta of then? Or are you replying out of but hurt because I'm right and your wrong?


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## Trojan (Jul 12, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Are you serious? That's completely different from FTG. FTG is instantaneous. The only reason Minato could be better at such would be by being more proficient( ; FTG lvl 2, marked Kunai, space time barrier), but other then that his FTG is no faster or no better then Tobiramas. Minato used BASE FTG to warp away from the Enton FRS. Tobirama could do the same.




+

I don't understand you man. 
when the debates is about FTG, you claim that the FTG is the same and therefore Tobirama can do it.
However, when someone debates you about shunshin, you claim that the statement is about FTG and not shunshin, so Tobirama can gets that because you need him to be the better shunshin user in that situation. 

seriously you must decide something.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 12, 2014)

KnightGhost said:


> More like you can't accept reality but that's fine



If you can prove it, that'd be swell.



> I don't really understand what your saying here in any case it states in the manga the legendary weapons make him invincible whether you in other fans accept this reality is different but facts are facts your clearly trying to create your own rules.



You're right, you didn't understand what I said. 
Let me make it ultra simple: those items (the shield and sword) are universal all all Susanoo which reach their final form (without EMS). I.E. by your logic, Sasuke, Madara and any Uchiha to master Susanoo is also invincible.

This is "reality" by your logic. Of course, your argument shatters as you refuse to accept that canon.



> Go read the data book before you reply here again you will only embarrass  yourself with your lack of knowledge . Clearly said the combination of TS and YM made gave  susnaoo perfect offense and perfect defense.



I think you should be the one checking their facts. In that situation, Itachi was invincible. Since then we've seen several jutsu/characters which would thwart Itachi's "invincibility". Never mind the fact that Itachi's "invincibility" was achieved by others that mastered Susanoo, others that obviously lost battles.



> Why don't you tell from which context in taking things outta of then? Or are you replying out of but hurt because I'm right and your wrong?



I did, you simply didn't comprehend what I said: in the situation where Sasuke could do jack shit, Itachi was invincible.

Other Uchiha who mastered Susanoo, thus had access to the form Itachi has with its items, also lost despite this "invincible" combination. A prime example is Madara Uchiha.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 12, 2014)

Tobirama wins. With Hiraishin, Itachi literally cannot touch him. Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susano'o are all useless and Tobirama's Suiton mastery as well as greater chakra pool means he can overpower any Suiton or Katon Itachi tries. With Hiraishin, he can tap, teleport Susano'o away before finishing Itachi off with Hiraishingiri.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 12, 2014)

This is Edo Itachi; he can keep Susano'o up forever, which means he has basically an eternity to land a hit on Tobirama through whatever means he can employ.

If Killer B could hit Minato, Itachi can hit Tobirama.


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## Trojan (Jul 12, 2014)

Minato was not planning to kill B though, and the latter did not really hit him either.
However, in this case why would Tobirama stop his attack? 

though, I still believe his problem is lacking of the sealing jutsu.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 12, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Minato was not planning to kill B though, and the latter did not really hit him either.
> However, in this case why would Tobirama stop his attack?



Tobirama doesn't have to stop; they have full knowledge of each other for this match, so Itachi can predict when Tobirama is going to try to appear behind him (like he predicted Kabuto would try to eat Sasuke). 



> though, I still believe his problem is lacking of the sealing jutsu.



Control talismans. 

Wait, stop doing that.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 12, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> This is Edo Itachi; he can keep Susano'o up forever, which means he has basically an eternity to land a hit on Tobirama through whatever means he can employ.



This is Edo Tobirama; he can keep teleporting forever which means he has basically an eternity to land a hit on Itachi through whatever means he can employ.

It isn't like the opposite side literally has nothing to do. 



> If Killer B could hit Minato, Itachi can hit Tobirama.



Killer B never hit Minato using Hiraishin. Madara (whose reflexes are far superior to Itachi's) had a hard time landing a hit on Tobirama, so Itachi won't do much better.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 12, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This is Edo Tobirama; he can keep teleporting forever which means he has basically an eternity to land a hit on Itachi through whatever means he can employ.
> 
> It isn't like the opposite side literally has nothing to do.



Tobirama has an eternity of being unable to break through Susano'o.



> Killer B never hit Minato using Hiraishin. Madara (whose reflexes are far superior to Itachi's) had a hard time landing a hit on Tobirama, so Itachi won't do much better.



Killer B could have stabbed Minato before he warped away with Hiraishin, as Minato acknowledged. And IIRC, Tobirama acknowledged that Minato was faster than himself.


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## Trojan (Jul 12, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Tobirama doesn't have to stop; they have full knowledge of each other for this match, so Itachi can predict when Tobirama is going to try to appear behind him (like he predicted Kabuto would try to eat Sasuke).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- What I'm saying is B couldn't have hit Minato if Minato continued his attack, he just stopped because he did not want to kill B in the first place. So, just because that was the case in that battle, that does not mean itachi can do the same or Tobirama will feel the same as Minato did about B. 

Kabuto's situation is much different than that.

- You have been proved to be itachi's hater.  
anyway, if Tobirama can use those (and that's a big IF) then he wins since he's superior to itachi...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 12, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Tobirama has an eternity of being unable to break through Susano'o.



Itachi has an eternity of being unable to touch Tobirama.

In actuality, unless Itachi chooses to stay still (bad against someone who can use Suiton), he'll eventually step over a mark. Assuming the Hiraishin radius factor doesn't allow Tobirama to teleport within Susanoo.
IIRC he said he could do something like the Hiraishin barrier Minato did albeit to a lesser extend as the Flash (more than enough to handle Itachi, however).



> Killer B could have stabbed Minato before he warped away with Hiraishin, as Minato acknowledged. And IIRC, Tobirama acknowledged that Minato was faster than himself.



Killer Bee could stab a Minato who was focusing on Ei -- looking at the scenario *entirely* gives a more accurate picture.
Minato>Tobirama in speed. However nothing says Itachi could compete with either in that department.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 12, 2014)

Slower ninja than itachi have hit tobirama  the idea itachi can't is nonsense

Also why can't munboy deal in manga fact instead of his what if  opinion ? Who he thinks Minato was focusing on is based on his  interpretation this has no place in the battledom which we can only logically apply feats to to determine who is the winner.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 12, 2014)

KnightGhost said:


> Slower ninja than itachi have hit tobirama  the idea itachi can't is nonsense



Show me that is the case and that you actually considered the situation.



> Also why can't munboy deal in manga fact instead of his what if  opinion?



I merely pointed out holes in your "facts".



> Who he thinks Minato was focusing on is based on his  interpretation this has no place in the battledom which we can only logically apply feats to to determine who is the winner.



Wut... ?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> That's what I was suggesting, that even if he somehow couldn't avoid it, he can teleport away from it the moment it makes contact with him. Enton allows the user to change the shape of the black flames into a shield, sword, arrow, etc. while Amaterasu is just the black flames.


I am talking about Amaterasu as a technique. Amaterasu manifests the flames on where the eye focus on.Enton is just a regular projectile, easier to anticipate and escape. IF the flames "appear" on the target, teleporting away won't save them.


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## Wonder_Y (Jul 13, 2014)

A sealing match? Itachi has the better method for sealing: No exposure, no need to do anything but stab repetitively. He's just too slow in Susanoo mode. I think the two jonin would be pretty essential here. 

Itachi could genjutsu one of the jonin and use them to throw off Tobirama for some short and indeterminate aamount of time. That in tandem with possibly a clone attack or an attack aimed straight for the eyes to open them. Would probably be a game changer. Itachi has numbers on his side and he also has the very valuable oppurtunity to ambush Tobirama. 

Izuna lost without knowledge. With knowledge even chuunin Sasuke would realize flying kunai means deflect or run, So i dont think the Izuna comparisons hold much weight. 

Given that they are in the uchia hideout which i believe is underground and kind of cramped. Itachi just really needs to go Susanoo and stab until he hits something. He has an unfair advantage there. 

Without the 2 jonin and without the cramped enviorment. I'd call a stalemate.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 13, 2014)

^How did Izuna lose to Tobirama without knowledge? They've been fighting each other ever since they were children. Genjutsu against a fighter who _fought Uchiha since he was old enough to walk_ isn't an option. Itachi's sealing method can. Never. Hit.


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## Wonder_Y (Jul 13, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ^How did Izuna lose to Tobirama without knowledge? They've been fighting each other ever since they were children. Genjutsu against a fighter who _fought Uchiha since he was old enough to walk_ isn't an option. Itachi's sealing method can. Never. Hit.



Well despite the years they spent in combat, he neglected the fact that Tobirama is able to leave his seal on items. He was taken off gaurd, because it was unexpected, and killed. = Lack of knowledge.

Your last two points aren't as obvious in their validity as you think. I'd appreciate some elaboration on your part. But i ask that you take into consieration: The narrow space, the fact that Itachi has full knowledge and logically would do away with seal marks where he finds them, and also the fact that Itachi would be using MS to track and predict movement.


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## Rain (Jul 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> The flames aren't big enough nor close enough. And again you're ignoring that he doesn't have to mark only kunai.



They are like 20 centimeters away from each other in that panel. Fire envelops shuriken thus increasing its size. And Itachi can fire at least a dozen of them at once. They will inevitably spread to Tobirama's kunai and melt them. 

But since this is Edo Itachi, all this is unnecessary since he can just Amaterasu sweep them all away without worrying about chakra.

What is marking Edo Tensei going to accomplish here? It will just make it easier for Itachi to predict his movement and rape him with Amaterasu. He needs to mark the ground first, which won't be easy against someone who can control his ground movements with Amaterasu.



> There is no reason to discuss whether this is true (and it's not), none of these shinobi have anything to do with this thread. Tobirama has experience with such techniques, is a sensor and Tobirama's Hiraishin>A's Shunshin so there is no reason to think he would get caught by Amaterasu.



You brought them up first and It's all true. 

A is important because you think Tobirama will dodge Itachi's Amaterasu just because Ei dodged Sasuke's Amaterasu. That's not a valid comparison because Ei knew exactly the moment Sasuke will fire Amaterasu because he saw his eyes bleeding. Tobirama can't do the same to Itachi because he will eat Tsukuyomi to the brain. Sensing isn't enough to tell him exactly the moment Amaterasu will spawn on him.



Nagato sensed the build-up and warned Naruto, but he didn't know exactly the moment Itachi will use Amaterasu. Same thing will happen with Tobirama.

Obito sensed the build-up and absorbed the attack. Don't see your point.



> [sp=You can see Amaterasu getting closer which implies that it isn't instant, but that it's traveling]
> 
> [/sp]



Wat. Those lines are something Kishi puts in his panels for drama. You can even see it in the panel you provided where Nagato warns Naruto.



> It doesn't matter how often they use it, he still knows that he simply doesn't have to look at the Uchiha's eyes and he's safe.



You have nothing here.



> Because it burned for a long time, I'm implying that Tobirama will teleport away from it once it hits him and it won't even hit him because he has experience with the black flames, is an excellent sensor and has the fastest jutsu in the manga. Why do you ignore the things I say and only focus on the little things?



I already countered all your arguments.

Tobirama can't look Itachi in the eyes because he will get Tsukuyomi'd, sensing can't tell him when exactly will Amaterasu spawn on him, can't teleport away once he's been hit because flames will destroy him on spot and even if he somehow teleports flames will remain on him because they're not a projectile like enton. That would be like saying Tobirama can teleport without his clothes on.

That's all i will say, feel free to disagree, i'm not here to change anyone's opinion.


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## Dominus (Jul 13, 2014)

Rain said:


> They are like 20 centimeters away from each other in that panel. Fire envelops shuriken thus increasing its size. And Itachi can fire at least a dozen of them at once. They will inevitably spread to Tobirama's kunai and melt them.
> 
> But since this is Edo Itachi, all this is unnecessary since he can just Amaterasu sweep them all away without worrying about chakra.
> 
> What is marking Edo Tensei going to accomplish here? It will just make it easier for Itachi to predict his movement and rape him with Amaterasu. He needs to mark the ground first, which won't be easy against someone who can control his ground movements with Amaterasu.



Itachi is IC here, he doesn't use Amaterasu all the time.



> You brought them up first and It's all true.
> 
> A is important because you think Tobirama will dodge Itachi's Amaterasu just because Ei dodged Sasuke's Amaterasu. That's not a valid comparison because Ei knew exactly the moment Sasuke will fire Amaterasu because he saw his eyes bleeding. Tobirama can't do the same to Itachi because he will eat Tsukuyomi to the brain. Sensing isn't enough to tell him exactly the moment Amaterasu will spawn on him.



You are the one who brought A up, he doesn't have an immunity to genjutsu, you made that up. Tobirama will know a second before Itachi uses Amaterasu, he can simply teleport away and Itachi won't hit him. You are the only person I have seen in the battledome that thinks Tobirama can't avoid Amaterasu.



> Nagato sensed the build-up and warned Naruto, but he didn't know exactly the moment Itachi will use Amaterasu. Same thing will happen with Tobirama.
> 
> Obito sensed the build-up and absorbed the attack. Don't see your point.



Tobirama will see the build-up of chakra and teleport, thus Itachi won't hit him with it, do you get it now?



> Wat. Those lines are something Kishi puts in his panels for drama. You can even see it in the panel you provided where Nagato warns Naruto.



Except that there isn't only one panel here and no jutsu is used on Nagato there. I wasn't talking about those lines, but panels in which you can see that it's getting closer to the Hachibi. It is clearly traveling.



> You have nothing here.



Concession accepted.



> I already countered all your arguments.



Except you have countered none of them.



> Tobirama can't look Itachi in the eyes because he will get Tsukuyomi'd, sensing can't tell him when exactly will Amaterasu spawn on him, can't teleport away once he's been hit because flames will destroy him on spot and even if he somehow teleports flames will remain on him because they're not a projectile like enton. That would be like saying Tobirama can teleport without his clothes on.



He doesn't have to look at his eyes and doesn't have to know the exact moment it's going to spawn, all he has to do when he senses the build up is teleport away and it won't hit him. He doesn't sense the build-up of chakra a year before it happens.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 13, 2014)

After watching the latest anime episode im starting to believe susano is beyond tobiramas power, they had him literally hiding from the thing lol


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## Dominus (Jul 13, 2014)

And in the anime, when Hiruzen fights Orochimaru in Part I, he says that Hashirama is as strong as he was in life.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> And in the anime, when Hiruzen fights Orochimaru in Part I, he says that Hashirama is as strong as he was in life.



Which was later retconned in the same anime


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## Dominus (Jul 13, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Which was later retconned in the same anime



That is irrelevant when my point is that the anime adds things that aren't in the manga so it can't be used as proof.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> That is irrelevant when my point is that the anime adds things that aren't in the manga so it can't be used as proof.



I know I was showing you a potential mistranslation doesnt equate to a character being drawn to do something.


I dont always view the anime as cannon but I do believe sometimes it goes into greater detail then the manga to maybe answer questions we may have on something.


In the manga tobirama fears madara to a degree and I always wondered why if madara and izuna where supposley on the same level but the answer would be susano according to the anime and thatwould also make sense as before susano izuna and madara would likley be just alike.


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## Dominus (Jul 13, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I know I was showing you a potential mistranslation doesnt equate to a character being drawn to do something.
> 
> 
> I dont always view the anime as cannon but I do believe sometimes it goes into greater detail then the manga to maybe answer questions we may have on something.
> ...



This is the Manga Battledome, it doesn't matter whether you think what happened in the anime is true or not, you can't use things from the anime as proof if the OP didn't say you can.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> This is the Manga Battledome, it doesn't matter what you think what happened in the anime is true or not, you can't use things from the anime as proof if the OP didn't say you can.



I was making a general statement about the characters portayal not about the outcome of the match if you scroll back i believe i already stated tobirama is the winner with extreme difficulty due to full knowledge


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## Dominus (Jul 13, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I was making a general statement about the characters portayal not about the outcome of the match if you scroll back i believe i already stated tobirama is the winner with extreme difficulty due to full knowledge



I don't see how that changes the fact that you used anime for that.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I don't see how that changes the fact that you used anime for that.



Im not gonna clog the thread going back and forth over this pm and me and ill further elaborate if u really wanna debate about the topic


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## Lord Stark (Jul 13, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> You sure? Itachi was able to react to Kirin which got lightning speed



Did you just compare Juubito with _Hebi_ Sauce's attack


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## Dominus (Jul 13, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Im not gonna clog the thread going back and forth over this pm and me and ill further elaborate if u really wanna debate about the topic



Not sure what more there is to discuss about.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Not sure what more there is to discuss about.



Ok well if you choose not to its fine.

 I would never use feats from the anime as they would probably draw things over the top to  spice up the show, but when it comes to story I do believe the anime elaborates on things the manga normally wouldn't, example itachi told kisame not to underestimate gai, but the manga never elaborated why itachi would say that its not like the manga gives us evidence on itachi seeing gai fight.


The anime however shows a arc where itachi and kakashi are both anbu, and they both witness gai fight first hand, this scenerio coincides with Itachi's knowledge on gai,  and also coincides with kakashi's knowledge on itachi's anbu backround.


as ive stated im not uses this as a basis for why itachi beats tobirama I already expressed I feel tobirama wins.


but as ive stated I dont see how using certain anime events to answer a related ambigious manga event is wrong.


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## Dominus (Jul 13, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Ok well if you choose not to its fine.
> 
> I would never use feats from the anime as they would probably draw things over the top to  spice up the show, but when it comes to story I do believe the anime elaborates on things the manga normally wouldn't, example itachi told kisame not to underestimate gai, but the manga never elaborated why itachi would say that its not like the manga gives us evidence on itachi seeing gai fight.
> 
> ...



I don't see why you wouldn't use feats, but use other things when they can be just as wrong.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I don't see why you wouldn't use feats, but use other things when they can be just as wrong.



As I already explained they would simply spice up the action for the shows sake, not only that but its harder to compare feats from still pictures and a actual cartoon show.

So far tho the stories for both are pretty much identical

Anything could be simply wrong no arguement on this forum is 100% fact we simply speculate and put 2 and 2 together, if thats all you can say in response I guess I proved my point.


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## Dominus (Jul 13, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> As I already explained they would simply spice up the action for the shows sake, not only that but its harder to compare feats from still pictures and a actual cartoon show.
> 
> So far tho the stories for both are pretty much identical
> 
> Anything could be simply wrong no arguement on this forum is 100 fact we simply speculate and put 2 and 2 together, if thats all you can say in response I guess I proved my point.



Look, as I've already said this is a Manga Battledome, therefore you should post here as if the anime doesn't exist. If you never saw the anime you wouldn't think he's afraid of Susanoo, but because you did, you think that way. It didn't elaborate on anything in that department because it wasn't implied anywhere in the manga that he's afraid of Susanoo or couldn't defeat it. I don't get your logic.


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## Dr. White (Jul 13, 2014)

Amaterasu does not travel, those lines on Bee was sasuke focusing on Bee.

If you think ama is a projectile please re read the manga/databook


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Look, as I've already said this is a Manga Battledome, therefore you should post here as if the anime doesn't exist. If you never saw the anime you wouldn't think he's afraid of Susanoo, but because you did, you think that way. It didn't elaborate on anything in that department because it wasn't implied anywhere in the manga that he's afraid of Susanoo or couldn't defeat it. I don't get your logic.




I made a statement about how I view there portrayal and why I view it like that, in reguards to the thread I posted i believe tobirama wins.

if you want to ignore my statement or reasoning for my porttrayal view thats fine, but you tried to argue that it was wrong and i simply defended my view.

portrayal is something that goes beyond the nf battledome where we use feats to decide majortiy of the outcomes, as far as the thread goes we agree, as far as portrayal goes we disagree.


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## Dominus (Jul 13, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I made a statement about how I view there portrayal and why I view it like that, in reguards to the thread I posted i believe tobirama wins.
> 
> if you want to ignore my statement or reasoning for my porttrayal view thats fine, but you tried to argue that it was wrong and i simply defended my view.
> 
> portrayal is something that goes beyond the nf battledome where we use feats to decide majortiy of the outcomes, as far as the thread goes we agree, as far as portrayal goes we disagree.



To each their own.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 13, 2014)

Wonder_Y said:


> Well despite the years they spent in combat, he neglected the fact that Tobirama is able to leave his seal on items. He was taken off gaurd, because it was unexpected, and killed. = Lack of knowledge.


More like Tobirama had gotten stronger than Izuna and surprised him with his skill. Are you using the Anime, which is non-canon, for that basis?


> Your last two points aren't as obvious in their validity as you think. I'd appreciate some elaboration on your part. But i ask that you take into consieration: The narrow space, the fact that Itachi has full knowledge and logically would do away with seal marks where he finds them, and also the fact that Itachi would be using MS to track and predict movement.


There's no way to 'do away' with the seals Wonder Y. They're permanently attached to the objects or the ground, thats the nature of the Hiraishin seal. And Tobirama also has full knowledge on Itachi.

And the Sharingan, Mangekyo or not, cannot track Hiraishin. The only character who was able to react and predict Tobirama's Hiraishin was Madara whose sensing abilities aided him. Itachi is a far weaker character who lacks sensing.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 13, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - What I'm saying is B couldn't have hit Minato if Minato continued his attack, he just stopped because he did not want to kill B in the first place. So, just because that was the case in that battle, that does not mean itachi can do the same or Tobirama will feel the same as Minato did about B.



The point isn't that Minato held back.

The point is that B could have stabbed him once he knew where he was.



> Kabuto's situation is much different than that.



The principle is the same; Itachi's intuition allows him to read his enemy's moves accurately--Kabuto said this.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi has an eternity of being unable to touch Tobirama.



That's not true, though, because Itachi is very much capable of touching Tobirama--it just wouldn't be easy.



> In actuality, unless Itachi chooses to stay still (bad against someone who can use Suiton), he'll eventually step over a mark. Assuming the Hiraishin radius factor doesn't allow Tobirama to teleport within Susanoo.
> IIRC he said he could do something like the Hiraishin barrier Minato did albeit to a lesser extend as the Flash (more than enough to handle Itachi, however).



Itachi's not the type to miss any visible tags in the area, so if we're going by pilot error as the rule of thumb, Tobirama is just as likely to get duped by a Kage Bunshin or warp to the wrong tag and get preemptively Totsuka'd. Either one of them is fallible, so if that's the only margin separating victory from defeat, then this is a pretty close match.



> Killer Bee could stab a Minato who was focusing on Ei -- looking at the scenario *entirely* gives a more accurate picture.



Minato wasn't focusing on A after he noticed B's sword pointed at him.

B also actively intercepted Minato's attempted Hiraishin blitz when he was focused on A instead. So regardless of who Minato was attacking or focusing on, B was able to react in time.



> Minato>Tobirama in speed. However nothing says Itachi could compete with either in that department.



If Killer B could, then Itachi can, because he is as fast as base Killer B.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Genjutsu against a fighter who _fought Uchiha since he was old enough to walk_ isn't an option.



That's just a lazy assumption that neglects to actually address _how_ Tobirama is supposed to avoid Itachi's Genjutsu. Fighting one Uchiha doesn't mean being able to fight them all.



> Itachi's sealing method can. Never. Hit.



It's no less likely than Tobirama's hitting Itachi, with Susano'o in the way.

They keep doing this dance until one of them makes a mistake, which can go either way.


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## Veracity (Jul 13, 2014)

Itachi is never ever landing a Totsuka stab through Tobirama when he has FTG and top tiered reactions.


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## Wonder_Y (Jul 13, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> More like Tobirama had gotten stronger than Izuna and surprised him with his skill. Are you using the Anime, which is non-canon, for that basis?
> 
> There's no way to 'do away' with the seals Wonder Y. They're permanently attached to the objects or the ground, thats the nature of the Hiraishin seal. And Tobirama also has full knowledge on Itachi.
> 
> And the Sharingan, Mangekyo or not, cannot track Hiraishin. The only character who was able to react and predict Tobirama's Hiraishin was Madara whose sensing abilities aided him. Itachi is a far weaker character who lacks sensing.



Well you are correct. My thoughts on that post were directed by recently viewing the anime. I've just reread the manga scene though and I stand by my argument. The manga did not show how he was able to succesfully pull off his technique against a fully informed, legendary uchiha, opponent. I Imagine it played out exactly as portrayed in the anime or the seal remained from a battle prior(because they don't fade as you've conjectured) and he simply leveled up his technique in a way the enemy had no idea about. These amount to a lack of knowledge. Izuna is just as able as Hashirama this is implied in their countless years of standing toe to toe with one another in battle. They were always equal. Meaning implicitly Izuna has countered Hairashin for years on top of years. Izuna would know Tobirama's patterns and tricks. Why would he allow a seal anywhere near himself? Why would the time depicted be any different unless there was a gap in knowledge or awareness? 

By destroying the surface the seal is placed upon you destroy the seal. It has never been displaed that these seals in particular reconnect when the object they are on is destroyed.

My point in mentioning earlier that Itachi would destroy the seals is that Tobirama would not be able to utilize Hairashin in the first place. If we are not disputing that the Uchiha 'hideout' is underground then we are aknowledging that space of movement is limited. An untagged Itachi, in susanoo form, in a tight space, with no movement seals, results in a sealed Tobirama. Don't assume that Itachi's 'sword' movement in Susanoo form is slow. Don't forget that Itachi has proven speed with his Susanoo sword, he took Nagato off gaurd with it. Who at the time was fully powered and taking on Bee, Kyuubi cloaked Naruto, and Itachi with no problems until Itachi used Susanoo.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 13, 2014)

Wonder_Y said:


> Well you are correct. My thoughts on that post were directed by recently viewing the anime. I've just reread the manga scene though and I stand by my argument. The manga did not show how he was able to succesfully pull off his technique against a fully informed, legendary uchiha, opponent. I Imagine it played out exactly as portrayed in the anime or the seal remained from a battle prior(because they don't fade as you've conjectured) and he simply leveled up his technique in a way the enemy had no idea about. These amount to a lack of knowledge. Izuna is just as able as Hashirama this is implied in their countless years of standing toe to toe with one another in battle. They were always equal. Meaning implicitly Izuna has countered Hairashin for years on top of years. Izuna would know Tobirama's patterns and tricks. Why would he allow a seal anywhere near himself? Why would the time depicted be any different unless there was a gap in knowledge or awareness?


The manga flat out just has Tobirama being stronger than Izuna. Killing him with a single move after an undetermined amount of time. Despite fighting for years, Izuna was decisively shown to be weaker with the final bout. Tobirama was just faster and stronger than him. Even Madara said that their power wasn't far apart, remember?


> By destroying the surface the seal is placed upon you destroy the seal. It has never been displaed that these seals in particular reconnect when the object they are on is destroyed.


Hiraishin's seal never disappears. The moment something is tagged, its permanent. The only thing that has shown to get rid of it is being a Juubi Jinchuriki.


> My point in mentioning earlier that Itachi would destroy the seals is that Tobirama would not be able to utilize Hairashin in the first place. If we are not disputing that the Uchiha 'hideout' is underground then we are aknowledging that space of movement is limited. An untagged Itachi, in susanoo form, in a tight space, with no movement seals, results in a sealed Tobirama. Don't assume that Itachi's 'sword' movement in Susanoo form is slow. Don't forget that Itachi has proven speed with his Susanoo sword, he took Nagato off gaurd with it. Who at the time was fully powered and taking on Bee, Kyuubi cloaked Naruto, and Itachi with no problems until Itachi used Susanoo.


The seals can't be destroyed, they're permanent, they never disappear. A small amount of space works more for Tobirama than it does Itachi. Susano'o hampers his movements and it IS slow. It never caught 'Nagato off guard', it had to snipe him while he was blinded, and even then it was a Kabuto Controlled Nagato instead of one controlling his own abilities. 

Itachi never faced KCM Naruto's full speed and strength too due to Naruto being weakened during their fight.


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## Wonder_Y (Jul 13, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The manga flat out just has Tobirama being stronger than Izuna. Killing him with a single move after an undetermined amount of time. Despite fighting for years, Izuna was decisively shown to be weaker with the final bout. Tobirama was just faster and stronger than him. Even Madara said that their power wasn't far apart, remember?
> 
> Hiraishin's seal never disappears. The moment something is tagged, its permanent. The only thing that has shown to get rid of it is being a Juubi Jinchuriki.
> 
> ...



That's not good enough. I'm asking you how and that is why we are at the battledome discussing Jutsu mechanics. Tobirama was just stronger this time is inaccurate, it's not strength perse but intelligence that they used in their battle. We are dodging the real issue in this discussion. How was Tobirama able to fool Izuna?

It was also stated that Minato's Hiraishin was different in ways to Tobirama's. You can't assume the statement being made here applies to Tobirama as well.

As far as the 'sniping' keep in mind that this is a man equipped with the Rinnegan. The moment that sword pushed passed the cloud, Nagato had a fair chance in terms of equipment and skill to react appropriately. Technically Itachi was being controlled as well before he switched sides, being controlled did not deminish his prowess with the sharingan so I doubt it would affect Nagato. Susanoo caught Nagato off gaurd twice. How was Naruto weakened when he went on from that fight to fight the war? A clone or weakned version, of this Naruto was able to defeat and seal the Third Raikage lol.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 13, 2014)

Wonder_Y said:


> That's not good enough. I'm asking you how and that is why we are at the battledome discussing Jutsu mechanics. Tobirama was just stronger this time is inaccurate, it's not strength perse but intelligence that they used in their battle. We are dodging the real issue in this discussion. How was Tobirama able to fool Izuna?


Tobirama was probably able to distract him, using his superior speed to get an opening. All the manga shows is that Tobirama got the better of him.


> It was also stated that Minato's Hiraishin was different in ways to Tobirama's. You can't assume the statement being made here applies to Tobirama as well.


Minato stated that Hirashin regardless, the seal never disappears. The only difference between Minato and Tobirama's is the seal formula. Application and such is the same, as we see by Tobirama marking both Obito and Minato.


> As far as the 'sniping' keep in mind that this is a man equipped with the Rinnegan. The moment that sword pushed passed the cloud, Nagato had a fair chance in terms of equipment and skill to react appropriately. Technically Itachi was being controlled as well before he switched sides, being controlled did not deminish his prowess with the sharingan so I doubt it would affect Nagato. Susanoo caught Nagato off gaurd twice. How was Naruto weakened when he went on from that fight to fight the war? A clone or weakned version, of this Naruto was able to defeat and seal the Third Raikage lol.


The Rinnegan was _blinded_. Nagato's use showed the Rinnegan can be blocked by dust clouds, which is where Itachi was hiding. And again, Nagato was controlled by _Kabuto_ who didn't know of Nagato's sensing. Nagato's mind was crushed and Kabuto was using him as a puppet, that was different than Itachi and Nagato when they had their minds before. 

Naruto was weakened since he had expended his chakra to create 13 clones to enter each battlefield while in KCM. Remember, at that time Naruto was warned not to create Clones while in that form since Kurama would consume his chakra. Hell after Nagato was sealed? Naruto couldn't maintain KCM anymore and it flickered off.

Both times when Itachi hit Nagato with Susano'o were times when he was directly controlled by Kabuto who, for the first one? Forgot _Itachi was even there._ For the second? Forgot to keep Nagato's defenses up. It was Kabuto's loss, not Nagato.


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## Senjuclan (Jul 13, 2014)

Wonder_Y said:


> That's not good enough. I'm asking you how and that is why we are at the battledome discussing Jutsu mechanics. Tobirama was just stronger this time is inaccurate, it's not strength perse but intelligence that they used in their battle. We are dodging the real issue in this discussion. How was Tobirama able to fool Izuna?



Simple. Madura answered that question. Tobirama waited until his opponents thought they had own to surprise attack them with hiraishingiri. That's what he did to Izuna


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## Wonder_Y (Jul 13, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tobirama was probably able to distract him, using his superior speed to get an opening. All the manga shows is that Tobirama got the better of him.
> 
> Minato stated that Hirashin regardless, the seal never disappears. The only difference between Minato and Tobirama's is the seal formula. Application and such is the same, as we see by Tobirama marking both Obito and Minato.
> 
> ...



I'm not convinced of your arguments in the least. Since this all started with you questioning my own, we can leave it at that since i don't have a particular need to question you about yours. No hard feelings though.



Senjuclan said:


> Simple. Madura answered that question. Tobirama waited until his opponents thought they had own to surprise attack them with hiraishingiri. That's what he did to Izuna



Tobirama more than likely had been using that tactic since the very first battle he had with Izuna. Surprise attacks on a distracted opponent is the essence of Hiraishin.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 13, 2014)

Wonder_Y said:


> I'm not convinced of your arguments in the least. Since this all started with you questioning my own, we can leave it at that since i don't have a particular need to question you about yours. No hard feelings though.


I'm posting what the manga has said. You're not convinced due to your predispostion towards Itachi.


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## Wonder_Y (Jul 13, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I'm posting what the manga has said. You're not convinced due to your predispostion towards Itachi.



Talk about a shot in the dark. I actually stated earlier that the fight was unbalanced in enviroment towards Itachi's favor. Originally, without this enviroment, I stated this would be a stalemate. But that inaccurate belief of yours about me stifled the effectivity of our discourse. I'll worry about what you think of me or the subject we are discussing when you can back it up. Till then peace and goodwill lil homie.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 13, 2014)

Wonder_Y said:


> Talk about a shot in the dark. I actually stated earlier that the fight was unbalanced in enviroment towards Itachi's favor. Originally, without this enviroment, I stated this would be a stalemate. But that inaccurate belief of yours about me stifled the effectivity of our discourse. I'll worry about what you think of me or the subject we are discussing when you can back it up. Till then peace and goodwill lil homie.


Most of your arguments relied on 'He's Itachi', ignoring what Hiraishin or its seal actually does, and finally claiming that Itachi's Susano'o can even hit Tobirama, basing it on its ability to hit an explicitly IMMOBILE opponent who had no control over its own abilities.


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