# Minato vs Tobirama



## Grinningfox (Feb 16, 2019)

Rules - FTG is Restricted for both 

Tobirama has one Edo 

Minato is alive


Location- Naruto vs Pain


Who ya Got?


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

Minato wins low to mid difficulty at worst case scenario.


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## Grinningfox (Feb 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Minato wins low to mid difficulty at worst case scenario.



Why do you think so ?


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Why do you think so ?


Minato is simply on another level compared to Tobirama based on feats and hype. Some people are naive enough to think
"Well, they have the same jutsu. Therefore, they are equal or at least near equal"

But, seeing Minato's feats/hype it's plenty obvious that he is quite stronger than Tobirama. For example, 
1- Minato was taken on A&B at the same time. They are the strongest Tag-team in Kumo. 
A thinks Minato us unsurpassable and B was shaking even hearing his name.

1- Tobirama, on the other hand, was destroyed by Kin/Gin (a weaker tag-team) even when he had help (2nd Raikage)
or when he was with his 6 other students. They still stood no chance.

and you see Kin/Gin saying they "wiped the floor with the 2nd Hokage" & "it's a shame that we are under his jutsu".
Showing him no sign of respect, which indicate that there is a good gap in power between them (Again, they are a weaker tag-team)

So, if Minato > A&B > Kin/Gin > Tobirama.

had he been only as powerful or only ever slightly stronger, it would have been impossible for him to even compete with A&B.
Much less defeat them.


----

and you can see this as well on Obito & Kurama's attack.
Kin/Gin have only a little bit of Kurama's chakra, and yet they stomped Tobirama.

the fact that Minato was dealing with Obito & full Kurama also shows a gap in power.... 


this is in short... 


and either way, without FTG itself, Tobirama does not really have much going on for him either.
like is he going to make Minato wit with his Water-dragon? 


ET is useless as Minato has Contract Seal & can seal them if he wants.


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## Salztpyre (Feb 16, 2019)

Tobirama is a more complete shinobi, better sensor than as an outstanding databook, gives great advantage in reading the combat.

Suitons for all situations, better body and much smarter. Edo tensei is left here.​


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## Cad Bane (Feb 16, 2019)

Probably Minato due to Toad summonings and more proficient use of Shadow Clones. It's never clear how good the Shinobi that Tobirama brought back with Edo Tensei were, for all we knew they could've been fodder.


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## Cad Bane (Feb 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> B was shaking even hearing his name.


Scan please.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

DoctorDoom6789 said:


> Scan please.


 
"tremble tremble" 


*Spoiler*: _1_ 









 

U_U


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## Cad Bane (Feb 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> "tremble tremble"
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _1_
> ...


I'm confused, when did the trembling happen?


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## Salztpyre (Feb 16, 2019)

I leave my laughter to think that Minato with a Kunai would kill A Yondaime

I leave my laughter to those who think great to have tied with Bee youthful that almost did not use power of his Bijuu​


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

DoctorDoom6789 said:


> I'm confused, when did the trembling happen?


are you blind? The pic is right there in front of you... 

I don't know what do you want me to do, come to you and make you open your eyes ?!


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## Cad Bane (Feb 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> are you blind? The pic is right there in front of you...
> 
> I don't know what do you want me to do, come to you and make you open your eyes ?!


The scan you showed doesn't look like B is trembling to hearing Minato's name. It looks like he's trembling looking at Naruto forming his Bijuu dama or Rasengan or whatever he's doing.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

DoctorDoom6789 said:


> The scan you showed doesn't look like B is trembling to hearing Minato's name. It looks like he's trembling looking at Naruto forming his Bijuu dama or Rasengan or whatever he's doing.


B: who taught you that jutsu?
Naruto: Jman, but the 4th is the inventor
B: trembling

next page
B: the 4th Hokage....etc

Obviously, the "trembling" part was not about Jiraiya, now was it?


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## Cad Bane (Feb 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> B: who taught you that jutsu?
> Naruto: Jman, but the 4th is the inventor
> B: trembling
> 
> ...


Okay I get it now. Thank you for clearing that up.


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## Sumu (Feb 16, 2019)

Tobirama flexes his chakra low diff.


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## Ishmael (Feb 16, 2019)

DoctorDoom6789 said:


> Probably Minato due to Toad summonings



Dis you see what his water style was doing to that those that tree? Lol yeah summons lose a limb or two.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Dis you see what his water style was doing to that those that tree? Lol yeah summons lose a limb or two.


Gamabunta's Water-style is stronger than his though...


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## Ishmael (Feb 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Gamabunta's Water-style is stronger than his though...



Ok. Would Gambunta be using that on himself?


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Ok. Would Gambunta be using that on himself?


I don't know what do you mean. 

"using that on himself"?


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## Ishmael (Feb 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I don't know what do you mean.
> 
> "using that on himself"?



What was your reason for telling me that? Doesn't take from tobiramas showings or the fact that his water style would take a limb leaving the summons immobile.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> What was your reason for telling me that? Doesn't take from tobiramas showings or the fact that his water style would take a limb leaving the summons immobile.


if they can counter with an even stronger attack, how are they going to lose those limbs? 

that's like me saying "did you see Gambunta's sword? he chopped Shukaku's arm. Surely it could chop off Tobirama's head"

and then you reply
"Well, Tobirama could use Shunshin/FTG to avoid the attack"

and I reply
"is Tobirama going to use Shunshin/FTG against himself?"

like, obviously. In a fight, even a Kunai could kill you. It's not a matter of having the means to do so, it's HOW you are going to do so...


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## Ishmael (Feb 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> if they can counter with an even stronger attack, how are they going to lose those limbs?



Kage Bushin helps with that. 

Didn't read the rest because it would just be a waste.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Kage Bushin helps with that


he is not fighting only frogs here...


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## MaruUchiha (Feb 16, 2019)

Tobirama said himself Minato is better than him with his own jutsu.
 I wonder how else he's better than him


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Tobirama said himself Minato is better than him with his own jutsu.
> I wonder how else he's better than him



Reacting speed, deception, sensing, and more experience, enough in fact that it allowed him to team up with Naruto far better than he would have with his own father.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> sensing


Minato is a sensor himself. Just throwing this out there...

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2019)

Woah @Hussain why the disagree man? You were giving me the dank funny and optimistic ratings.

 Wait ... Don't tell me it's because I'm talking about Tobirama now. 

Why so salty @Hussain? You and Tobirama have a lot in common. Like your hatred against the Uchihas. You'd be perfect at cosplaying Tobirama.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Woah @Hussain why the disagree man? You were giving me the dank funny and optimistic ratings.


I dunno, that how it came to be :V



UchihaX28 said:


> Why so salty @Hussain? You and Tobirama have a lot in common. Like your hatred against the Uchihas. You'd be perfect at cosplaying Tobirama.


how is disagreeing with you makes me salty? 

Are you saying I must follow whatever you think, or otherwise I am being salty? 


anyway, I am too tired now... 
and I will have to try to get some sleep...


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Feb 16, 2019)

Tobirama loses. Minato is a bit faster, and we have seen what happens when one ST user is a hair faster than the other (see Minato vs Obito).

Minato eventually tags Tobirama by a narrow margin to control the fight the rest of the way, or just lands an outright blow to win it.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Minato is a bit faster


1-Minato got to the battlefield
2- marked the area around the Juubi
3- used the S/T barrier to teleport the TBB
4- had a little chat with Naruto after the blast of TBB reached them

and THEN Tobirama arraived with the others


> "is a bit faster" 

Kappa




Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Minato eventually tags Tobirama


FTG is restricted.


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## Turrin (Feb 16, 2019)

Unless you believe Minato can use extended SM; I don’t see how anyone can make a credible argument that Minato wins.

Tobirama physical speed is above KCM Minato who should be way above Base-Minato; so chances are Tobirama would straight blitz Base Minato. Even if he doesn’t he’s going to easily react to everything Minato does while Minato will eventually get overwhelmed by Tobirama superior speed.

Tobirama physical strength is much higher too; so even if Minato attempts to block him he will likely get overwhelmed.

Tobirama chakra is also much higher then Base-Minato meaning he can use clones much more freely then Minato; and more at one time. His greater stamina will also mean Minato gets exhausted first. Even further increasing how overwhelmed Minato will be. 

Tobirama is also smarter then Minato, has more experience, and has better sensing feats; so he will be outmaneuvering/finessing  Minato strategically throughout the fight adding even further to how overwhelmed Minato will be.

Tobirama Suitons also offer greater versatility and range over Rasengan; making it even easier for Tobirama to land his attacks. (This is without going into Tobirama clones using Tandem Explosive Tags)

Comparing Summons; 1 Edo Tensei with Tandem Explosive Tags is way more dangerous the Toas Summons. If you disagree consider that Kishi thought Deidara was a stronger Tensei then Nagato because he could blow himself up repeatedly without danger due to Edo bodies. While Tandem Explosive Tags aren’t CO that still illustrates how powerful that combo is.

Feats wise none of the Toads can do anything against an Edo with Tandem Explosive Tags and they all die; Minato himself without FTG, could easily get caught up in this too especially if he’s dealing with one of Tobirama clones at the same time. And can Minato even seal an Tensei that would explode like this without the Reaper? I kind of doubt it; Gaara and the seal squad couldn’t deal Mizukage due to the fact that he blew himself up with Joki Boi before the seal could finish stopping him.

——

So most likely Minato gets blitz’d and if not he gets overwhelmed, very quickly; and summons won’t help turn the tide as they are all inferior to Tobirama Edo (which honestly it’s probably handicapping Tobirama to only give him 1 Edo as his chakra supply should allow him to summon many more)

Reactions: Like 2


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## Bonly (Feb 16, 2019)

Minato is better in almost every single way so even without Hiraishin he'd likely still come out on top

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Feb 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> 1-Minato got to the battlefield
> 2- marked the area around the Juubi
> 3- used the S/T barrier to teleport the TBB
> 4- had a little chat with Naruto after the blast of TBB reached them
> ...


I didn’t read the OP.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama physical strength is much higher too; so even if Minato attempts to block him he will likely get overwhelmed.


pardon, but what physical strength feat does Tobirama have? 



Turrin said:


> Tobirama chakra is also much higher then Base-Minato


Can you post a link/page/whatever that talks about Tobirama's chakra? 



Turrin said:


> Tobirama is also smarter then Minato


where was this mentioned? 



Turrin said:


> and has better sensing feat


such as?



Turrin said:


> making it even easier for Tobirama to land his attacks.


how do they make it easier when they need hand-seals to be made where Rasengan is much faster because it does not require that?



Turrin said:


> (This is without going into Tobirama clones using Tandem Explosive Tags)


And what about Minato's clones using SF? 



Turrin said:


> Comparing Summons; 1 Edo Tensei with Tandem Explosive Tags is way more dangerous the Toas Summons. If you disagree consider that Kishi thought Deidara was a stronger Tensei then Nagato because he could blow himself up repeatedly without danger due to Edo bodies. While Tandem Explosive Tags aren’t CO that still illustrates how powerful that combo is.



Contract seal. 



Turrin said:


> Feats wise none of the Toads can do anything against an Edo with Tandem Explosive Tags and they all die;



>featwise
> Tobirama's ET has no feats
> 



Turrin said:


> So most likely Minato gets blitz’d


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 17, 2019)

Minato wins ,  he is the faster of  two and also controls battlefield well so in batttle of speed minato has the advantage he will strike first


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2019)

Tobirama wins. Minato's superiority over Tobirama was only stated to be due to Minato's Shunshin and FTG, the latter of which is not available and the former of which is not amounting to anything against a man who literally reacted to Juubito's assaults twice and is significantly faster than Minato in any way, shape, or form. Said being who Tobirama reacted to was something that EMS Sasuke, KCM Naruto, and KCM Minato could not react to. The time it took KCM Minato to process Juubito's explosive TSB glued to his arm and subsequently extend his arm a few inches was the time it took Tobirama to mentally respond to the abrupt TSB, reach Minato from dozens of meters, and * fully * extend his arm out to reach the TSB. That is a gargantuan gap in terms of reactions and that sort of disparity that enables Tobirama to mentally react and even physically react at speeds that exceed KCM Minato's comprehension let alone Base Minato easily seals the deal in CQC.

Tobirama has far superior sensing feats which enable him to respond to Minato's attacks even faster. The best Minato did was track 20 Jonin shinobi which even a Jonin sensor ninja can accomplish while Tobirama had surpassed Hashirama in sensing as a child and can differentiate between many chakra signatures, an ability in which only a few replicated such as Muu. Denying the advantages of Tobirama's sensing is ultimately denying the advantages of Sage Mode, KCM sensing, and the 3T Sharingan. Muu isn't even a fast shinobi and yet his sensing capabilities enabled him to easily react to KCM Naruto which Onoki attributed to sensing. Tobirama's sensing capabilities will elevate him on a significantly higher level in terms of reactions compared to Minato.

 And of course, Tobirama has more options at close-range including Suiton which will cleave him in half in one blow. Minato's Rasengan is very useful in the sense that it requires no seals, thus can be activated nigh instantaneously, but that isn't much of a problem for a man that can literally create a seal for Hiraishin and then subsequently tag Juubito before he was cleaved in half. The fact that a watered down version of Tobirama could use high-level Suiton with mere handseal would allow Tobirama to easily intercept Minato at close-range if he even attempted Rasengan.

 Very unfair match. Give both Hiraishin and Minato can win 50/50, but without it, Tobirama is the superior shinobi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grinningfox (Feb 17, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Tobirama wins. Minato's superiority over Tobirama was only stated to be due to Minato's Shunshin and FTG, the latter of which is not available and the former of which is not amounting to anything against a man who literally reacted to Juubito's assaults twice and is significantly faster than Minato in any way, shape, or form. Said being who Tobirama reacted to was something that EMS Sasuke, KCM Naruto, and KCM Minato could not react to. The time it took KCM Minato to process Juubito's explosive TSB glued to his arm and subsequently extend his arm a few inches was the time it took Tobirama to mentally respond to the abrupt TSB, reach Minato from dozens of meters, and * fully * extend his arm out to reach the TSB. That is a gargantuan gap in terms of reactions and that sort of disparity that enables Tobirama to mentally react and even physically react at speeds that exceed KCM Minato's comprehension let alone Base Minato easily seals the deal in CQC.
> 
> Tobirama has far superior sensing feats which enable him to respond to Minato's attacks even faster. The best Minato did was track 20 Jonin shinobi which even a Jonin sensor ninja can accomplish while Tobirama had surpassed Hashirama in sensing as a child and can differentiate between many chakra signatures, an ability in which only a few replicated such as Muu. Denying the advantages of Tobirama's sensing is ultimately denying the advantages of Sage Mode, KCM sensing, and the 3T Sharingan. Muu isn't even a fast shinobi and yet his sensing capabilities enabled him to easily react to KCM Naruto which Onoki attributed to sensing. Tobirama's sensing capabilities will elevate him on a significantly higher level in terms of reactions compared to Minato.
> 
> ...



Minato sensed Naruto from countries away...
because fullbring

What superior sensing feats does Tobirama have?

Minato was able to intercept Juubidara’s TSO’s to save 8th Gate Gai because fullbring
because fullbring

Tobirama isn’t blitzing or doing anything of the like and his reactions mean shit when Minato Summons Gamabunta or any other Boss Summon.

Without FTG Tobirama has no means of escaping Bunta’s Suiton and has no comparable attack to counter it.

Tobirama’s ET is countered by Minato’s usage of contract seal 

If FTG IS included then Minato has the edge there by Tobirama’s own admission


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Minato sensed Naruto from countries away...
> because fullbring
> 
> What superior sensing feats does Tobirama have?


 
 I mentioned them. He can differentiate between various chakra signatures and reduce them down to the contents of their DNA much like Muu could and he far surpassed Hashirama in that department ever since he was a kid.

 Minato only sensed Kurama due to being Kurama's Jin as well. This is explicitly why KCM Naruto could sense Kin/Gin while locked up in training where sensing chakra was impossible.



> Minato was able to intercept Juubidara’s TSO’s to save 8th Gate Gai because fullbring
> because fullbring



 And Tobirama cannot do that because? You have no concrete comparisons that can be made. You cannot prove that Tobirama cannot accomplish that whereas I can provide feats in which Tobirama did react to Juubito which KCM Minato could not react to multiple times. That's a concrete comparison where only one reasonable conclusion can be drawn from it. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Tobirama cannot do so even though 6th Gate Lee, Kakashi, and Gaara could all react to Madara's and 8th Gate Gai's attacks.



> Tobirama isn’t blitzing or doing anything of the like and his reactions mean shit when Minato Summons Gamabunta or any other Boss Summon.



 Doesn't mean shit. They're not touching him when Pain danced around them and Tobirama's Suiton can literally pierce through their limbs anyways.


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## Grinningfox (Feb 17, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> I mentioned them. He can differentiate between various chakra signatures and reduce them down to the contents of their DNA much like Muu could and he far surpassed Hashirama in that department ever since he was a kid.
> 
> Minato only sensed Kurama due to being Kurama's Jin as well. This is explicitly why KCM Naruto could sense Kin/Gin while locked up in training where sensing chakra was impossible.
> 
> ...



Mind posting a scan?

I’m not attempting to prove superiority in reactions, merely that Tobirama isn’t doing anything as ludicrous as blitzing.

Minato reacted to Juubito here

because fullbring
because fullbring
Link removed
Link removed

When post Co-op KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke were helpless

Tobirama’s feat is questionable and not nearly as concrete as you’re making it .

Also if we’re taking it at face value then Hiruzen’s showing should be just as valid 

Here we have Tobirama going to save Naruto
Link removed
And here we have Hiruzen bearing him to the punchLink removed

Hiruzen also reacts to Juubito hereLink removed analyzes how the TSO works and even dodges a little bitLink removed 

Hiruzen>Tobirama?

Post one scan of Pain dodging a Suiton from Gamabunta .

Also Tobirama can dodge Gamabunta because? You have no concrete comparisons to be made. You cannot prove Tobirama can doge Gamabunta’s strikes without FTG.

Also Minato beating able to summon Ma & Pa is a possibility and then Tobirama is dumpstered


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> pardon, but what physical strength feat does Tobirama have?
> 
> 
> Can you post a link/page/whatever that talks about Tobirama's chakra?
> ...


Hussein I don’t want to go over a ton of points with you; so if you want to discuss it let’s start with one Point and we can expand from there if it’s even necessary 

So I’ll start, my first point is:

Without FTG Tobirama would blitz Minao zero diff.. Prove me wrong.


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Mind posting a scan?
> 
> I’m not attempting to prove superiority in reactions, merely that Tobirama isn’t doing anything as ludicrous as blitzing.
> 
> ...



Why do you think it’s valid to use KCM Minato feats in a discussion about Base-Minato?  Let’s start there

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Without FTG Tobirama would blitz Minao zero diff.. Prove me wrong.



doesn't even need to be proved wrong, it is solid wrong

minato without FTG reacted to A4 who had a younger B on his side

what is Tobirama's best speed feat again? 

aside from not even slightly reacting and getting blitzed by juubito?(doesn't matter but I know you're going to actually claim he kept up with juubito)


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> doesn't even need to be proved wrong, it is solid wrong
> 
> minato without FTG reacted to A4 who had a younger B on his side
> 
> ...


Hardcore I won’t even engage you in debate until you admit what the definition of survive is per out last discussion


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Hardcore I won’t even engage you in debate until you admit what the definition of survive is per out last discussion



okay, survive in the context of your Kn6 thread meant taking CT and staying alive from it

my respond was no, he didn't survive it as he went to a higher form (Kn8) to survive it and break through.. IF there was no Kn8, Kn6 would have died from the pressure up there or in manga definition, pain would have canceled his technique in time to capture naruto alive.. it's the third time I repeat this and it's the third time you keep going circular.

now don't go out of topic in this thread and just respond to the previous post and what speed feat tobirama has to blitz someone like minato?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> okay, survive in the context of your Kn6 thread meant taking CT and staying alive from it
> 
> my respond was no, he didn't survive it as he went to a higher form (Kn8) to survive it and break through.. IF there was no Kn8, Kn6 would have died from the pressure up there or in manga definition, pain would have canceled his technique in time to capture naruto alive.. it's the third time I repeat this and it's the third time you keep going circular.
> 
> now don't go out of topic in this thread and just respond to the previous post and what speed feat tobirama has to blitz someone like minato?


Do you understand that he needed to be able to survive CT before he evolved to KN8 or he would have died before achieving KN8

And it’s not off topic because if someone is going to deny reality what point is there in discussing another part of the manga with them?


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## Grinningfox (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Why do you think it’s valid to use KCM Minato feats in a discussion about Base-Minato?  Let’s start there





Turrin said:


> Why do you think it’s valid to use KCM Minato feats in a discussion about Base-Minato?  Let’s start there



I’m merely combatting the narrative that KCM Minato was helpless against Juubito like you say.

Two let’s not start anywhere


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## Serene Grace (Feb 17, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Also Minato beating able to summon Ma & Pa is a possibility and then Tobirama is dumpstered


Something that's OOC and he didnt do throughout the entire war



Grinningfox said:


> Hiruzen also reacts to Juubito hereLink removed analyzes how the TSO works and even dodges a little bitLink removed


Hiruzen reacted to Juubito's TSB expansion and still got tagged, he never utilized shunsin there which Tobirama actually reacted to

Nice try


Grinningfox said:


> Tobirama’s feat is questionable and not nearly as concrete as you’re making it .


How is it questionable? Lol this pro Mintao march has people blind to Tobirama's strength it's actually kind of sad. Madara even with the Rinnegan and SM praised to Tobirama's speed, and attributed his win in close range due to him being brought back stronger and Tobirama being brought back weaker

I find it funny you say not to take feats at face value yet I see you posting Minato "reacting" to 8 gated guy as if faster versions of Minato such as SM Minato got blitzed by slowers characters like Juudara to the point where he couldn't even mentally port out




Grinningfox said:


> Also Tobirama can dodge Gamabunta because? You have no concrete comparisons to be made. You cannot prove Tobirama can doge Gamabunta’s strikes without FTG.



Bruh you mean the same strikes that the Pein paths were easily reacting to

..and Tobirama who described as one of the most nimble shinobi's cant react to that

If this where a Jiraiya thread I dont even believe you'd give bunta the benefit of the doubt here, but because its Minato..


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> I’m merely combatting the narrative that KCM Minato was helpless against Juubito like you say.
> 
> Two let’s not start anywhere


I didn’t say KCM-Minato was helpless; so that’s a straw-man. I said Tobirama reacted better against Juubito attacks.

If you want to combat my narrative (the manga’s narrative) then discuss it with me; don’t straw man me to other posters like @UchihaX28

Also if your going to say Base-Minato doesn’t get blitzed don’t use KCM-Minato feats to support it.


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Do you understand that he needed to be able to survive CT before he evolved to KN8 or he would have died before achieving KN8
> 
> And it’s not off topic because if someone is going to deny reality what point is there in discussing another part of the manga with them?



there you go again, going circular to neglect a question you have no respond to

you don't even understand how CT works and you have no proof of the timeframe in which he turned Kn8, all you can say that he survived long enough before turning Kn8, but *not *that he survived CT.. and really that was not a feat in his favor like you implied it is

now if you mind going on-topic, it would be nice


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> t all you can say that he survived long enough before turning Kn8, but *not *that he survived CT.


Thank you I accept your concession that he survived CT; if you want to argue he couldn’t survive CT for a prolonged period of time that’s on you; I just said he survived CT.


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Thank you I accept your concession that he survived CT; if you want to argue he couldn’t survive CT for a prolonged period of time that’s on you; *I just said he survived CT.*



and that was wrong because you made it sound that CT did not fulfill its purpose in capturing him.. no it's not on me, he was getting crushed by the pressure and he could not break from it, therefore he cannot survive CT. in a battledome situation, Kn6 vs pain would end with CT gg since there is no Kn8 to save the day.


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> and that was wrong because you made it sound that CT did not fulfill its purpose in capturing him.. no it's not on me, he was getting crushed by the pressure and he could not break from it, therefore he cannot survive CT. in a battledome situation, Kn6 vs pain would end with CT gg since there is no Kn8 to save the day.


Is survive the same as capture... again I’ll accept your concession at any time that you jumped the gun rather asking me to clarify

It’s ridiculous how hard it is for someone to admit they were wrong around here or jumped to the wrong conclusion  lol


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## Hi no Ishi (Feb 17, 2019)

Minato is faster than Tobirama in shunshin according to Tobirama and feats. He vastly outsped the other Kage and took several actions before they arrived. 

Rasengan is a faster jutsu than Tobirama has due to no hand seals.

Both have called the others striking speed fast. So let's call it about even.  

So in terms of speed it's 2-0-1 in Minato's favor. 

They both have sick clone game. 

Both have good summons. Edo Tensei explosions are massive and deadly but they can be contract sealed leaving Tobirama with dust at best and extra enemies at worst.
 Gamabunta is tough, highly mobile, and can match jutsu with Shukakku in terms of power, but on the downside is mortal and has a time limit.

Kinda even there too.

Minato also has a barrier he was certain could contain the 9 Tails, and can seal Tobirama into 

So while they are definitely close in power Minato's speed advantage and ability to counter Tobirama's jutsu would give him the victory 9/10 times.


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Is survive the same as capture... again I’ll accept your concession at any time that you jumped the gun rather asking me to clarify
> 
> It’s ridiculous how hard it is for someone to admit they were wrong around here or jumped to the wrong conclusion  lol



going circular again i see, not even going to bother copy pasting my previous post

I agree wit your second sentence but it's ironic how it directly applies to you as well, you prefer going circular than to concede something and refuse to go on-topic and not answer a question you have no response to

well played mate


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Hussein I don’t want to go over a ton of points with you; so if you want to discuss it let’s start with one Point and we can expand from there if it’s even necessary
> 
> So I’ll start, my first point is:
> 
> Without FTG Tobirama would blitz Minao zero diff.. Prove me wrong.



No, let's start from the strength point.
we went through your Tobirama's speed nonsense for too long, let's make this the last point...


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> No, let's start from the strength point.
> we went through your Tobirama's speed nonsense for too long, let's make this the last point...


So I assume you concede that point then?


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So I assume you concede that point then?


Turrin, your reading comprehension is horrendous, to say the least...  

what part of "let's make this the last point" do you not understand?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> going circular again i see, not even going to bother copy pasting my previous post
> 
> I agree wit your second sentence but it's ironic how it directly applies to you as well, you prefer going circular than to concede something and refuse to go on-topic and not answer a question you have no response to
> 
> well played mate


Hardcore I’m fine going on topic; I do with plenty of other people I’m not going to discuss any topic with you if your going to deny reality though. So I’ll ask again did KN6 allow Naruto to survive CT for a certain period of time?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Turrin, your reading comprehension is horrendous, to say the least...
> 
> what part of "let's make this the last point" do you not understand?


That was my bad actually didn’t see that, but I’m not going to make it the last point because if Tobirama blitz he wins and the other stuff is irrelevant so if you prove he doesn’t blitz then I’ll get into the rest with you as it will become relevant at that point

Basically I don’t want to bother arguing 5 different points when 1 will suffice.


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> That was my bad actually didn’t see that, but I’m not going to make it the last point because if Tobirama blitz he wins and the other stuff is irrelevant so if you prove he doesn’t blitz then I’ll get into the rest with you as it will become relevant at that point
> 
> Basically I don’t want to bother arguing 5 different points when 1 will suffice.



No, going back with speed will let us go in circles. We already debated this in multiple threads, and everyone and their mothers
have been telling you how wrong you are. 


Now, can you prove that Tobirama is physically stronger than Minato, or do you concede that you are wrong? 

if nothing else, you can take those "5 different points" as a mean to "decrease" the gap
between Minato and the almighty Tobirama-sama.


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> No, going back with speed will let us go in circles. We already debated this in multiple threads, and everyone and their mothers
> have been telling you how wrong you are.
> 
> 
> ...


See Husain this is why it’s pointless to take the discussion further to other points with you because I offer solid argument on Tobirama speed and you just say I’m wrong because like 3 other people agree with you; while not being able to address the actual arguments. So why would I bother discussing another issue with you; when you are just going to say I’m wrong at the end of the day not addressing the arguments themsleves.

So like I said that you can address the point that Tobirama blitz first and then we can continue from there; otherwise I’m done discussing the topic with you


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Minato is faster than Tobirama in shunshin according to Tobirama and feats. He vastly outsped the other Kage and took several actions before they arrived.
> 
> Rasengan is a faster jutsu than Tobirama has due to no hand seals.
> 
> ...


Not according to Tobirama
What feats?
Show me Minato hard FTG to get to Naruto and Sakura not Shunshin


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> See Husain this is why it’s pointless to take the discussion further to other points with you because I offer solid argument on Tobirama speed and you just say I’m wrong because like 3 other people agree with you; while not being able to address the actual arguments. So why would I bother discussing another issue with you; when you are just going to say I’m wrong at the end of the day not addressing the arguments themsleves.
> 
> So like I said that you can address the point that Tobirama blitz first and then we can continue from there; otherwise I’m done discussing the topic with you



No, you are wrong because the manga says you are wrong. It's not that "3 other people agree with me"
even your idol Tobirama himself does not agree with you. And if you have ANY level of reading comprehension, you would have understood the idea Kishi was trying to convey by having Minato reached the battlefield first.

Only clowns would say "The guy who came in second in the race is faster than the guy who came in first"

That's why it's useless to debate with you about the speed point. And why I wanted to see what arguments do you have on the other aspects of this debate...


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> No, you are wrong because the manga says you are wrong. It's not that "3 other people agree with me"
> even your idol Tobirama himself does not agree with you. And if you had ANY level of reading comprehension, you would have understood the idea Kishi was trying to convey by having Minato reached the battlefield first.
> 
> Only clowns would say "The guy who came in second in the race is faster than the guy who came in first"
> ...


And continue to use a mistranslation...

And Minato used FTG to get to Naruto and Sakura; while Tobirama didn’t. Prove me wrong.


See no point to continue with you when your just going to keep posting the same arguments I already disproved.


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> And continue to use a mistranslation...
> 
> And Minato used FTG to get to Naruto and Sakura; while Tobirama didn’t. Prove me wrong.
> 
> ...


he did not have FTG to use it.

and had he used it to get from Konoha to the battlefield, he would have. 
1- reached immediately when they decided to go to the BF. It wouldn't have taken 2-3 chapters
2- He would have teleported the rest with him.
3- they would have never been able to reach slightly after him seeing the distance between Konoha and the War field.

4- How did he get the Kunais around the Juubi if he teleported to Naruto directly as you claimed?

or did those Kunais put themselves in there?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> he did not have FTG to use it.
> 
> and had he used it to get from Konoha to the battlefield, he would have.
> 1- reached immediately when they decided to go to the BF. It wouldn't have taken 2-3 chapters
> ...


I just showed you a direct panel of him using FTG to reach Naruto and Sakura yet your denying it?

The other part is a straw man I don’t claim he teleported to them directly; I said that’s how he reached that location faster then the other Hokage, which is a fact


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I just showed you a direct panel of him using FTG to reach Naruto and Sakura yet your denying it?
> 
> The other part is a straw man I don’t claim he teleported to them directly


Turrin please stop being so naive. 

Minato reached the field first, and THEN he struck his Kunai. Hence, why Tobirama complement his striking speed as well.

if he teleported directly. explain to us the Kunai on the ocean, why did it get there? 
FTG teleports him from A to C directly, without going through B. 
How did the Kunai end up being on B location? 

and let us say that ok. Minato teleported directly.

Did Hiruzen use FTG? No. 
then Tobirama is only as fast as Hiruzen who has 3 out of 5 in term of speed.

Which means, Tobirama is only slightly above average.


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Turrin please stop being so naive.
> 
> Minato reached the field first, and THEN he struck his Kunai. Hence, why Tobirama complement his striking speed as well.
> 
> ...


I honestly have no clue what your saying for most of this post... so if you want to boil it down to one point I’ll address it


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I honestly have no clue what your saying for most of this post... so if you want to boil it down to one point I’ll address it


the fuck is this? you seem to talk like 2 years old child. You seriously can't understand 2 simple points together? 


ok, let's get this to pre-schooler level of explaining. 

FTG teleport the user from 1 point to the other *DIRECTLY*. Do you understand this one?

for example.



Kurama in the village




Kurama beyond the mountains.

he did NOT cross the distance between location A (Konoha) and location B (the mountains). 

Do you understand this point?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> the fuck is this? you seem to talk like 2 years old child. You seriously can't understand 2 simple points together?
> 
> 
> ok, let's get this to pre-schooler level of explaining.
> ...


No I literally don’t; only thing I can think of is your saying Minato used Shunshin to get to battlefield and then used FTG to get to Sakura / Naruto. To which I say prove that he used Shunshin; and didn’t toss a FtG Kunais ahead of him. Just like he did to reach Sakura an Naruto


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No I literally don’t


you don't understand 2 points together
or you don't understand FTG mechanics even after the explanation?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> you don't understand 2 points together
> or you don't understand FTG mechanics even after the explanation?


I don’t understand your point; I understand it’s mechanics just fine

Again I’d your point that he used Shunshin to get to the battlefield and then threw the Kunai; yes or no?


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I don’t understand your point; I understand it’s mechanics just fine


Good, now you got how FTG works.

You say Minato teleported from Konoha to the battlefield directly using FTG

Yes or no?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Good, now you got how FTG works.
> 
> You say Minato teleported from Konoha to the battlefield directly using FTG
> 
> Yes or no?


Nope


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Nope


So, he neither used FTG to get to the battlefield nor did he use Shunshin either? 

did he go there by rolling?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> So, he neither used FTG to get to the battlefield nor did he use Shunshin either?
> 
> did he go there by rolling?


He used FTG to get to the battlefield; he didn’t use it from all the way back in Konoha


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He used FTG to get to the battlefield; he didn’t use it from all the way back in Konoha



At what point did he use FTG?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> At what point did he use FTG?


Can’t be 100% sure, but he likely traveled with the Hokage normally up until they drew close to the battlefield and then pulled out Kunai and tosssed them towards the battlefield. Just like he did in Gaiden to arrive their first:


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Can’t be 100% sure, but he likely traveled with the Hokage normally up until they drew close to the battlefield and then pulled out Kunai and tosssed them towards the battlefield. Just like he did in Gaiden to arrive their first:



did the Hokage see him tossing his Kunai since he was with them?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> did the Hokage see him tossing his Kunai since he was with them?


Sure


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sure


then why did Hiruzen ask him if he did?


was he being stupid?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> then why did Hiruzen ask him if he did?


Hiruzen asked if he placed markers around Juubi for the barrier not markers on the battlefield at all.


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Hiruzen asked if he placed markers around Juubi for the barrier not markers on the battlefield at all.


Was the Juubi on the battlefield?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Was the Juubi on the battlefield?


Sure


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sure


then why did Hiruzen ask him that, when he knows that Minato marked the battlefield that the Juubi is in it?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> then why did Hiruzen ask him that, when he knows that Minato marked the battlefield that the Juubi is in it?


Because the Kunai needed to be in square formation around the Juubi; and couldn’t just be on the battlefield


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Because the Kunai needed to be in square formation around the Juubi; and couldn’t just be on the battlefield


But you said Hiruzen SAW Minato tossing his Kunai. 

Did he only see Minato using 1 Kunai, or did he see Minato tossing 4 Kunais?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> But you said Hiruzen SAW Minato tossing his Kunai.
> 
> Did he only see Minato using 1 Kunai, or did he see Minato tossing 4 Kunais?


If Minato threw 5 Kunai off into the distance how would he know where they went?

Also Minato could have thrown one Kunai towards the battlefield and then after reaching it thrown the other markers.


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Hardcore I’m fine going on topic; I do with plenty of other people I’m not going to discuss any topic with you if your going to deny reality though. So I’ll ask again did KN6 allow Naruto to survive CT for a certain period of time?


In the same way Itachi, KCM Naruto, and B survived before destroying the core, so it's not really a feat or something worth mentioning, and I don't know why you're insisting on it.


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If Minato threw 5 Kunai off into the distance how would he know where they went?
> 
> Also Minato could have thrown one Kunai towards the battlefield and then after reaching it thrown the other markers.



Do you think the Hokages were planning to use the barrier or was that an afterthought after they reached the battlefield?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Do you think the Hokages were planning to use the barrier or was that an afterthought after they reached the battlefield?


They were planning to use it


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> In the same way Itachi, KCM Naruto, and B survived before destroying the core, so it's not really a feat or something worth mentioning, and I don't know why you're insisting on it.


Panel of KcM Naruto, Itachi, or B actually being covered by CT


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> They were planning to use it


So, Hiruzen (I.E the professor). Saw Minato tossing *4* of his Kunais to make the barrier that they have already planned/agreed to do
but he still asked him whether or not he prepared the marking for the barrier?

Did I get this right?


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Can’t be 100% sure, but he likely traveled with the Hokage normally up until they drew close to the battlefield and then pulled out Kunai and tosssed them towards the battlefield. Just like he did in Gaiden to arrive their first:



alright GG, so you basically indirectly said it yourself that Tobirama *cannot *blitz minato without realizing, so what you said is that they were together moving, then minato throws a kunai and then use FTG to get ahead.. meaning thrown kunai speed > speed of the hokage including Tobirama, and Minato had to react to actually aim the kunai, therefore Minato reactions at the very least >> tobirama's speed

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> So, Hiruzen (I.E the professor). Saw Minato tossing *4* of his Kunais to make the barrier that they have already planned to do
> but he still asked him whether or not he prepared the marking for the barrier?
> 
> Did I get this right?


Prove Minato tossed exactly 4 Kunai.


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> alright GG, so you basically indirectly said it yourself that Tobirama *cannot *blitz minato without realizing, so what you said is that they were together moving, then minato throws a kunai and then use FTG to get ahead.. meaning thrown kunai speed > speed of the hokage including Tobirama, and Minato had to react to actually aim the kunai, therefore Minato reactions at the very least >> tobirama's speed


What lol makes no sense. What did Minato have to react to?


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Prove Minato tossed exactly 4 Kunai.


 

3 are here

and the one you keep posting in front of Naruto.

Do you agree that 3 + 1 = 4?

Yes, or no?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> 3 are here
> 
> and the one you keep posting in front of Naruto.
> 
> ...


Sure; but prove he tossed exactly those 4 in front of Hiruzen...

As i said he could have thrown 1 or even many towards the battlefield.

If he threw 1 to teleport to the battfield and after arriving there thrown the others


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> As i said he could have thrown 1 or even many towards the battlefield.


can you show those extra Kunais to us?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> can you show those extra Kunais to us?


I don’t have to. As I said he could have thrown 1 Kunai to get to the battlefield or he could have thrown more.

The burden of proof isn’t on me; it’s you who need to prove he threw exactly 4 in-front of Hiruzen


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Panel of KcM Naruto, Itachi, or B actually being covered by CT



lol so you actually think the dangerous part of CT is the rocks and not the pressure of the pull that eventually crushes the opponent?



Turrin said:


> What lol makes no sense. What did Minato have to react to?



the speed of his kunai, to aim it, which was, according to your claim, faster than the rest.


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> it’s you who need to prove he threw exactly 4 in-front of Hiruzen


So, you think the Hokage planned to make a 4 angles barrier, and the manga showed us 4 Kunais.
But there, really, was more Kunais throwing for the lols?

Did I get this right?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> lol so you actually think the dangerous part of CT is the rocks and not the pressure of the pull that eventually crushes the opponent?
> 
> 
> 
> the speed of his kunai, to aim it, which was, according to your claim, faster than the rest.


I think it’s both; and the pressure is dangerous when the target hits a wall and the pressure it still behind exhausted. kN6 survived this for awhile; B and the others didn’t 

What do you mean to aim it? The aiming is done before it’s tossed


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> So, you think the Hokage planned to make 4 angles barrier, and the manga showed us 4 Kunais.
> But there, really, was more Kunais throwing for the lols?
> 
> Did I get this right?


Nope

I think it’s possible that Minato could have tossed 1 Kunai to get to the battlefield and then tossed the other three Kunai (outside of Hiruzens view) after reaching the battlefield

Or

He could have tossed more then 4 Kunai; but the manga only focused on those 4 because they were the ones relevant to the barrier

Now I’m asking again prove IN FRONT of Hiruzen he threw exactly 4 or admit this exercise is pointless


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I think it’s possible that Minato could have tossed 1 Kunai to get to the battlefield and then tossed the other three Kunai (outside of Hiruzens view).


So, Minato only tossed only 1 Kunai at first (in front of Hiruzen) and teleported.
That Kunai being the one in front of Naruto

right?


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I think it’s both; and the pressure is dangerous when the target hits a wall and the pressure it still behind exhausted. kN6 survived this for awhile; B and the others didn’t
> 
> What do you mean to aim it? The aiming is done before it’s tossed



No, the black core is what's dangerous, the trio wanted to destroy it before getting close to it and getting completely caught like Kn6, the rocks have nothing to do with it, they just get pulled with the strong gravity as well.

No, to properly aim a given projectile getting thrown, you need to have reactions to its speed.. that's really basics.. that's why it's much harder to aim something when you throw it at full power.. if minato can't at least react to the kunai he's throwing, there's no way he can aim the kunai to the battlefield from the distance you're speaking off, and that thrown kunai according to you >> the hokage speed


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> No, the black core is what's dangerous, the trio wanted to destroy it before getting close to it and getting completely caught like Kn6, the rocks have nothing to do with it, they just get pulled with the strong gravity as well.
> 
> No, to properly aim a given projectile getting thrown, you need to have reactions to its speed.. that's really basics.. that's why it's much harder to aim something when you throw it at full power.. if minato can't at least react to the kunai he's throwing, there's no way he can aim the kunai to the battlefield from the distance you're speaking off, and that thrown kunai according to you >> the hokage speed


If that’s what you think cool; ultimately doesn’t change the fact that KN6 survived CT for a period of time; and I was referring to the pressure and rocks anyway not the core; so I’ll accept your concession at any time that you jumped the gun

What are you talking about baseball players can throw a ball at 105 mph; doesn’t mean they can react to an object moving towards them at 105 mph from any distance


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If that’s what you think cool; ultimately doesn’t change the fact that KN6 survived CT for a period of time; and I was referring to the pressure and rocks anyway not the core; so I’ll accept your concession at any time that you jumped the gun
> 
> What are you talking about baseball players can throw a ball at 105 mph; doesn’t mean they can react to an object moving towards them at 105 mph from any distance



yes they can, that's why there are catchers and batters for the thrown ball, so you basically gave the best example in an attempt to refute my point but instead proved mine, lol turrin



edit: your statement was "Kn6 survived CT" and that was wrong so I pointed it out, why should I concede it.. now you're telling me you meant " Kn6 endured CT long enough until Kn8 came" and that's what correct but you weren't clear on that before so why should I concede something unclear you said?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> So, Minato only tossed only 1 Kunai at first (in front of Hiruzen) and teleported.
> That Kunai being the one in front of Naruto
> 
> right?


No he tossed on towards the battlefield; maybe it’s the one in front of Juubidama; or maybe it’s abother one of the 4

Or maybe he tossed a bunch

That’s what I’m asking you to prove; how many did he toss in front of Hiruzen. I also don’t have much more time so please get to the point


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> yes they can, that's why there are catchers and batters for the thrown ball, so you basically gave the best example in an attempt to refute my point but instead proved mine, lol turrin
> 
> 
> 
> edit: your statement was "Kn6 survived CT" and that was wrong so I pointed it out, why should I concede it.. now you're telling me you meant " Kn6 endured CT long enough until Kn8 came" and that's what correct but you weren't clear on that before so why should I concede something unclear you said?


Catchers aren’t the same as  pitchers; the role is separated because both are pro as what they do; and a catcher predicts where the ball will go using the time it takes to cross the distance towards them to intercept . If a ball was thrown 105 Mph towards the pitcher at close range they’d be fucked

Now can you please provide evidence that Naruto characters can move physically as fast their thrown Kunai

And you should concede that you jumped the gun and should haven just asked for clarification

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I also don’t have much more time so please get to the point


The point is rather simple and clear, you don't want to admit that you are wrong. 

had Minato been with the Hokage the whole time before he used FTG Kunais to use them as you claimed he did, Hiruzen wouldn't have asked him if he had already prepared the Kunais. Which means, they were not together because Minato left them in the dust, which explains why the Hokage (Hiruzen & Tobirama) did not know that he prepared the battlefield.

Now that you have proven you have nothing (except for your headcanon and but this, but that, maybe this, maybe that. There HAS TO BE A HIDING MEAINING...etc) let's leave this FTG point, and move to the next point.


Was Tobirama also moving alongside the Hokage, or was he ahead of them seeing his Shunshin is faster than them according to you?


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Catchers aren’t the same as  pitchers; the role is separated because both are pro as what they do; and a catcher predicts where the ball will go using the time it takes to cross the distance towards them to intercept . If a ball was thrown 105 Mph towards the pitcher at close range they’d be fucked
> 
> And you should concede that you jumped the gun and should haven just asked for clarification



common turrin you should concede that clear point based on simple physics, baseball is the perfect example of what i'm saying, pitchers throw the ball at full power and the batters/catchers can react to it.. and no if it is close range, their reactions don't change, they can react but they won't be able to do anything since reactions > movement speed..

same logic applies if a car is coming fast at you, you can react you can see it, but you wouldn't be able to do anything about it..

so here basically, Minato throws his kunai which according to your logic faster than the hokage, and also from a long distance with proper aim on the battlefield then uses FTG, so really discussion over, unless you are going to argue that minato can't react to his kunai then your argument falls and tobirama is not close to blitzing minato.


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> The point is rather simple and clear, you don't want to admit that you are wrong.
> 
> had Minato been with the Hokage the whole time before he used FTG Kunais to use them as you claimed he did, Hiruzen wouldn't have asked him if he had already prepared the Kunais. Which means, they were not together because Minato left them in the dust, which explains why the Hokage (Hiruzen & Tobirama) did not know that he prepared the battlefield.
> 
> ...



and even if minato was with them and threw a kunai, that means the kunai > Tobirama's speed, and minato can obviously react to his kunai, so the point falls either way


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## Hi no Ishi (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Not according to Tobirama


As you and everyone else here knows, he says it directly in 2 different translations that I guess I'll post again lol.



Your feelings do not change this.

Head cannon about how they traveled that throws Occam's Razor in the trash an burns it like:
"Minato used FTG to get somewhere he had no tag, while not bringing along the Kage for some reason, and using 100s of kunai to travel, that Tobirama for no reason did not use as well, even though we see he can use Minato's marks easily, but then they let Minato get way ahead surround the Jubi in Kunai, Guiding thunder the TBB and ride out the blast wave just for funsies before deciding to show up and compliment Minato's speed twice for no reason."

Does not change this. 

It's never going to be a more reasonable answer than, "the guys who got there first and was directly stated to be faster is simply faster.


Turrin said:


> What feats?


When I asked you that you simply said "this three feats" with no explanation but sure lol.

The obvious ones of him taking several actions before the Kage got there and  being able to react to faster opponents than Tobirama did with better results 


Turrin said:


> Show me Minato hard FTG to get to Naruto and Sakura not Shunshin


What?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> and even if minato was with them and threw a kunai, that means the kunai > Tobirama's speed, and minato can obviously react to his kunai, so the point falls either way


I was going to get to this point eventually. But he said that he can't comprehend more than 1 point at a time.

So, I am taking it step by step...


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

and really why would tobirama praise the speed of someone he can blitz?

on what ground is this even getting argued?


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> and really why would tobirama praise the speed of someone he can blitz?
> 
> on what ground is this even getting argued?



His point is retarded in all fronts. As S/T jutsu has always been superior to Shunshin anyway.
So, even IF we were to give him that Tobirama's Shunshin is faster, it's useless because FTG is still superior.

And he thinks "Tobirama only admitted that Minato is a better  FTG user than he is"

Where Tobirama's FTG IS better than HIS Shunshin as well. Otherwise, why bother with FTG at all if your own Shunshin is faster than it?


you can't get more naive than that really...


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> and really why would tobirama praise the speed of someone he can blitz?
> 
> on what ground is this even getting argued?



 So KCM Naruto can't blitz Dodai?

 Glad we got that taken care of then.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> The point is rather simple and clear, you don't want to admit that you are wrong.
> 
> had Minato been with the Hokage the whole time before he used FTG Kunais to use them as you claimed he did, Hiruzen wouldn't have asked him if he had already prepared the Kunais. Which means, they were not together because Minato left them in the dust, which explains why the Hokage (Hiruzen & Tobirama) did not know that he prepared the battlefield.


No lets not leave the point; if Minato threw one Kunai towards the battlefield and then teleported to it; throwing the other three Kunai after that. How would Hiruzen know he set up the markers


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No lets not leave the point;


there is no point Turrin. You were *EXTREMELY WEAK* and have no argument whatsoever. I believe
everyone can see that by this point.


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> common turrin you should concede that clear point based on simple physics, baseball is the perfect example of what i'm saying, pitchers throw the ball at full power and the batters/catchers can react to it.. and no if it is close range, their reactions don't change, they can react but they won't be able to do anything since reactions > movement speed..
> 
> same logic applies if a car is coming fast at you, you can react you can see it, but you wouldn't be able to do anything about it..
> 
> so here basically, Minato throws his kunai which according to your logic faster than the hokage, and also from a long distance with proper aim on the battlefield then uses FTG, so really discussion over, unless you are going to argue that minato can't react to his kunai then your argument falls and tobirama is not close to blitzing minato.


No I don’t concede a point that your wrong about. The pitcher and catcher are two different people and catcher has time to react as the ball travel across the distance towards them; they aren’t reacting at a point blank rangr 

As I said please prove Naruto characters can physically move as fast as the Kunai they throw and then I’ll concede


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> there is no point Turrin. You were *EXTREMELY WEAK* and have no argument whatsoever. I believe
> everyone can see that by this point.


I accept your concession then and I’m done discussing this with you as your just going to revert to personal attack when you can’t addeess a point


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I accept your concession then and I’m discussing this with you as your just going to revert to personal attack when you can’t addeess a point


whatever floats your boat buddy ...


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> whatever floats your boat buddy ...


Back on my ignore list you go...


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Back on my ignore list you go...


whatever floats your boat buddy

@Bonly sorry for stealing your sentence lol


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> As you and everyone else here knows, he says it directly in 2 different translations that I guess I'll post again lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. Two fault translations doesn’t change facts

2. We directly saw him use FTG to arrive ar Sakura and Naruto location; so their is no speculating their its fact. I’ll post the scans

3. Tobirama doesn’t have FTG Kunai


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

@UchihaX28 you are a Tobirama fanboy as well. Do you have better arguments?

Tobirama's fanboys must go down at once... :gitgud


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No I don’t concede a point that your wrong about. The pitcher and catcher are two different people and catcher has time to react as the ball travel across the distance towards them; they aren’t reacting at a point blank rangr
> 
> As I said please prove Naruto characters can physically move as fast as the Kunai they throw and then I’ll concede



your first argument about them being different people is nothing as human reaction time is about the same, my point stands.. base ball throw range is point blank range.. and I gave you the car example if it was any closer.. I've done my job and you brought in nothing new

and actually that's not even my argument, but it is true and it's not my job to prove it... naruto characters have ALWAYS reacted to the kunais so yeah, the same kunai according to your scenario and fanfic that you arguing with @Hussain had to be much faster than Tobirama, and Minato can obviously EASILY react to that.. and your claim is that Tobirama can blitz Minato, so do you concede your claim?


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> So KCM Naruto can't blitz Dodai?
> 
> Glad we got that taken care of then.



not sure what you're exactly hinting at, and how this is related at all tbh


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> your first argument about them being different people is nothing as human reaction time is about the same, my point stands.. base ball throw range is point blank range.. and I gave you the car example if it was any closer.. I've done my job and you brought it nothing new
> 
> and actually that's not even my argument, but it is true and it's not my job to prove it... naruto characters have ALWAYS reacted to the kunais so yeah, the same kunai according to your scenario and fanfic that you arguing with @Hussain had to be much faster than Tobirama, and Minato can obviously EASILY react to that.. and your claim is that Tobirama can blitz Minato, so do you concede your claim?


Dude Naruto characters don’t move as fast as Kunai; they react because hey have time to predict the Kunai trajectory as they travel through space toward the target; the same way I told you a catcher would react.

And when it comes to the rest I don’t even understand what point your making.


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

> Tobirama was ahead of the Hokages because his Shunshin is much faster than them
> God knows how he arrived at the same time as old Hiruzen

> @Turrin

"Well, maybe Tobirama felt bad for leaving his student behind and thought that a cat will attack him and he won't be able to protect himself. Because of that Tobirama decided to lower his speed to babysit his student. Isn't he the kindest guy ever? "


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Dude Naruto characters don’t move as fast as Kunai; they react because hey have time to predict the Kunai trajectory as they travel through space toward the target; the same way I told you a catcher would react.
> 
> And when it comes to the rest I don’t even understand what point your making.



oh the hilarity, so naruto characters don't react to kunais, they read the future and see the kunai and predict like baseball catchers, that's not reaction..

yes you do understand what point i am making and you know you're stuck, so i will repeat and i will be satisfied if you just respond to this:

" naruto characters have ALWAYS reacted to the kunais so yeah, the same kunai according to your scenario and fanfic that you arguing with @Hussain had to be much faster than Tobirama, and Minato can obviously EASILY react to that.. and your claim is that Tobirama can blitz Minato, so do you concede your claim?"

really i've just confirmed your habit to keep going around in circles when you don't want to respond to something

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> your habit to keep going around in circles


nailed it. 

Even if you brought Kishi himself for him and he swore up and down that there is no "hiding meaning behind what I wanted to show"
or there was no "off-panel things going on" 

he will continue with his way "Well, maybe Kishi said that because he did not want to upset Minato's fans"
"Maybe he said that because he wanted fans to keep guessing about his TRUE intentions that he did not say"

..etc 

It's useless...


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> oh the hilarity, so naruto characters don't react to kunais, they read the future and see the kunai and predict like baseball catchers, that's not reaction..
> 
> yes you do understand what point i am making and you know you're stuck, so i will repeat and i will be satisfied if you just respond to this:
> 
> ...


When did I say Naruto character don’t react to Kunai; I said they don’t move as quickly as Kunai. So nice straw man....

Shinobi can react to a thrown Kunai because it has to cross X amount of distance to reach him; giving him more time to react.

Tobirama can blitz Minato despite being slower then Minato thrown Kunai because he will be closer too Minato in CQC.

For example if Minato threw the Kunai towards the battlefield at 500mph; and Tobirama top speed is 400 MPH. The Kunai will reach the battlefield before Tobirama. But Tobirama could still blitz Minato if he can’t react to something moving in close range at 400 MPH. Even if he could react to something being thrown at him at 500mph accross a few football fields; as he’d have that extra time to react as it crossed more distance


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

alright guys what's going on according to Turrin's logic:

minato can react and block kunai getting thrown at him but tobirama who is slower than kunai(according to him not me) can blitz minato

mate is there anyway I can help you?


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

How can @Turrin still rate my posts? Can the users rate posts of members they have on ignore? 


and speaking of Turrin, do we know for SURE that Minato actually tried to catch that orb? 


Maybe, just MAYBE he actually wanted the orb to explode in them to get rid of Naruto & Sasuke's nuisance. 


Or maybe he saw Tobirama coming from afar and said "Well, he is my senior. I can't do all the work and make him look bad. I will pretend that I couldn't catch the orb so he could do something at least"

do we KNOW for sure that Minato did not think this way? Kappa



Maybe when he tried to catch it he suddenly felt some pain in his stomach and took some moments to think of visiting a doctor
and forgot the orb for a moment. do we know for SURE that he did not get some pain in his stomach?


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> alright guys what's going on according to Turrin's logic:
> 
> minato can react and block kunai getting thrown at him but tobirama who is slower than kunai(according to him not me) can blitz minato
> 
> mate is there anyway I can help you?


How do you know Minato can react and block a Kunai?

Do you know for sure that the Kunai did not stop itself so Minato can react?

How do you know that wasn't someone off-panel with magnet release or something controlled that Kunai's speed so Minato can react to it?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> not sure what you're exactly hinting at, and how this is related at all tbh





 Did KCM Naruto not praise Dodai for his speed too?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> alright guys what's going on according to Turrin's logic:
> 
> minato can react and block kunai getting thrown at him but tobirama who is slower than kunai(according to him not me) can blitz minato
> 
> mate is there anyway I can help you?


Wow talk about false equivalency and assuming that all Kunai are traveling the same speed when thrown by different Shinobi


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Did KCM Naruto not praise Dodai for his speed too?


Do you know for sure that he REALLY meant it?

Maybe he meant someone else called Dodai? It so happened that this guy has a smiler name.

Can you give us a page that states for SURE that there is no other guy who called Dodai that Naruto might have meant?


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> How do you know Minato can react and block a Kunai?
> 
> Do you know for sure that the Kunai did not stop itself so Minato can react?
> 
> How do you know that wasn't someone off-panel with magnet release or something controlled that Kunai's speed so Minato can react to it?



they do not see or react the kunai, they predict their trajectory in the future and block them, same as a catcher/batter hitting a fast baseball



Turrin said:


> Wow talk about false equivalency and assuming that all Kunai are traveling the same speed when thrown by different Shinobi



it was minato who through that kunai, and he can react to it, and according to you its speed is > Tobirama, going circular again i see?


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> they do not see or react the kunai, they predict their trajectory in the future and block them, same as a catcher/batter hitting a fast baseball


it was not a serious response. I was just using Turrin's way. 
apparently he thinks his "maybes" are actual proofs/arguments.


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> it was not a serious response. I was just using Turrin's way.
> apparently he thinks his "maybes" are actual proofs/arguments.


so was I


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> it was minato who through that kunai, and he can react to it, and according to you its speed is > Tobirama, going circular again i see?


We’re going in a circular because your not proving your claim. Please prove that Minato in point blank range could react to his the speed of his fastest thrown Kunai


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> We’re going in a circular because your not proving your claim. Please prove that Minato in point blank range could react to his the speed of his fastest thrown Kunai



well seeing how itachi trained with his kunai and shuriken in his younger days, then minato should be as capable

really make a thread if minato can react to a kunai


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> well seeing how itachi trained with his kunai and shuriken in his younger days, then minato should be as capable
> 
> really make a thread if minato can react to a kunai


Okay so we’re back to all Kunai no matter who threw them travel at the same speed; this is why we keep going in circles not because of me


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Okay so we’re back to all Kunai no matter who threw them travel at the same speed; this is why we keep going in circles not because of me



so minato can't react to the kunai he throws?

and he magically throws the faster kunai in the series without having the reactions to aim them?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> so minato can't react to the kunai he throws?


If Minato threw his Kunai at max speed at say a Bushin that was right in-front of him less then 1m away; then no he probably could not.

If you want to say he can then I’ll listen to your evidence as I have been asking for this whole time


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Do you know for sure that he REALLY meant it?
> 
> Maybe he meant someone else called Dodai? It so happened that this guy has a smiler name.
> 
> Can you give us a page that states for SURE that there is no other guy who called Dodai that Naruto might have meant?



 Do you know for sure that Tobirama was talking about Minato? Perhaps it was someone who also had the name of Minato. 

 Can you give us pages that shows that every shinobi that has ever praised Minato was not referring to another guy called Minato?


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If Minato threw his Kunai at max speed at say a Bushin that was right in-front of him less then 1m away; then no he probably could not.
> 
> If you want to say he can then I’ll listen to your evidence as I have been asking for this whole time



>continuously asks for evidence
>doesn't bring in any evidence to his fanfiction

yes he can.. there's a reason why at close range ninjas use their kunais to strike manually not by throwing them.. their striking speed is always faster than the kunai.. less than 1m away then it is like manually attacking and minato would easily react, really i'm trying not to be aggressive as much as possible, but you're spouting infinite bullshit and keep using them in circles

you've went low enough to say that minato can't react to the kunai he throws and fuck even said that people are slower than the stuff the kunai they throw(not that I care about that one and it does not affect the argument), but as long as in your fanfic minato used the kunai which according to you was faster than tobirama to teleport, then he had the reactions to aim that kunai, and he could easily dodge it.. now let me see you going in circles again..


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Do you know for sure that Tobirama was talking about Minato? Perhaps it was someone who also had the name of Minato.
> 
> Can you give us pages that shows that every shinobi that has ever praised Minato was not referring to another guy called Minato?



Maybe even minato's nickname the "yellow flash" as being one of the fastest around is not meant for him, but the actual flash in the comic books or tobirama


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Do you know for sure that Tobirama was talking about Minato? Perhaps it was someone who also had the name of Minato.
> 
> Can you give us pages that shows that every shinobi that has ever praised Minato was not referring to another guy called Minato?


I concede


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> >continuously asks for evidence
> >doesn't bring in any evidence to his fanfiction
> 
> yes he can.. there's a reason why at close range ninjas use their kunais to strike manually not by throwing them.. their striking speed is always faster than the kunai.. less than 1m away then it is like manually attacking and minato would easily react, really i'm trying not to be aggressive as much as possible, but you're spouting infinite bullshit and keep using them in circles
> ...


They use their Kunai to strike because most of the time they dont have the time to thrown the Kunai itself. So it’s faster to strike to defend yourself, but once a Kunai is thrown it’s max speed is faster then the person can physical move

As far as evidence goes; why do you think Minato tosses his FTG Kunai at the target rather then simply using Shunshin? It’s because the Kunai can cross that distance faster then Minato can even with Shunshin. That’s why he throws the FTG Kunai at Juuidara fear and the teleports to it rather then using Shunshin.


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> They use their Kunai to strike because most of the time they dont have the time to thrown the Kunai itself. So it’s faster to strike to defend yourself, but once a Kunai is thrown it’s max speed is faster then the person can physical move
> 
> As far as evidence goes; why do you think Minato tosses his FTG Kunai at the target rather then simply using Shunshin? It’s because the Kunai can cross that distance faster then Minato can even with Shunshin. That’s why he throws the FTG Kunai at Juuidara fear and the teleports to it rather then using Shunshin.



false, he throws the kunai because it is safer than to engage physically, and marking then teleporting serves better as a surprise attack.. 

so you still insist that minato can't react to his kunai?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> false, he throws the kunai because it is safer than to engage physically, and marking then teleporting serves better as a surprise attack..
> 
> so you still insist that minato can't react to his kunai?


A surprise attack for someone who already knows how FTG works lol

At point blank range he won’t be able to; further away sure


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> A surprise attack for someone who already knows how FTG works lol
> 
> At point blank range he won’t be able to; further away sure



just to test you, alright your definition of point blank above was <1m and let's say minato can't(he can, since someone striking with a kunai is much faster), do you concede your point of tobirama blitzing minato since according to you, the kunai is faster than tobirama?


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> just to test you, alright your definition of point blank above was <1m and let's say minato can't(he can, since someone striking with a kunai is much faster), do you concede your point of tobirama blitzing minato since according to you, the kunai is faster than tobirama?


Dude we see Minato can throw a Kunai faster the he can physical move right here:



And no why would I concede that both the Kunai and Tobirama are faster then Minato


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Dude we see Minato can throw a Kunai faster the he can physical move right here:
> 
> 
> 
> And no why would I concede that both the Kunai and Tobirama are faster then Minato



lol he used it purposely for FTG like I implied earlier for a surprise attack and yeah he just threw it infront of him before clashing into obito notice not before.. it's nothing i didn't knw off and i said it before and he tried the same with juubidara

and wait, obito actually saw the kunai coming from extreme point black because he remember it specifically and minato does not have any less reactions than onito, so again in an attempt to prove me wrong, you proved me right..

you're trying to prove kunai > tobirama > minato, but what you just proved is minato > kunai > tobirama according to your fanfic.. so now you can happily concede..


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> lol he used it purposely for FTG like I implied earlier for a surprise attack and yeah he just threw it infront of him before clashing into obito notice not before.. it's nothing i didn't knw off and i said it before and he tried the same with juubidara
> 
> and wait, obito actually saw the kunai coming from extreme point black because he remember it specifically and minato does not have any less reactions than onito, so again in an attempt to prove me wrong, you proved me right..
> 
> you're trying to prove kunai > tobirama > minato, but what you just proved is minato > kunai > tobirama according to your fanfic.. so now you can happily concede..


So a surprise attack when both individuals knew how the Jutsu works is not a good explanation

What do you mean he remembered it specifically....

No I didn’t; you also realize that there is a difference between being able to physical evade and activating space time Ninjutsu; right or do we have to go there too..

Also how is Minato > Kunai when I directly showed you the Kunai moving faster then Minato... what denial of facts is this lol


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## Hi no Ishi (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Two fault translations doesn’t change facts


So your saying you have a different tranlation? That says something different? 
He does not say that Minato's Shunshin is faster there? 

Please enlighten us as to what words he did use.


Turrin said:


> 2. We directly saw him use FTG to arrive ar Sakura and Naruto location; so their is no speculating their its fact. I’ll post the scans


Him arriving and throwing kunai everywhere on the field does not mean that's how he traveled all the way there. 

That's a pretty big leap in logic for something never stated or shown.

Nor would it make any sense like I said before and you chose not to address.


Turrin said:


> 3. Tobirama doesn’t have FTG Kunai


He both has a marked Kunai that he used against Madara, and can use Minato's as he has shown. 
What are you talking about?


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So a surprise attack when both individuals knew how the Jutsu works is not a good explanation
> 
> What do you mean he remembered it specifically....
> 
> ...



obito reacted to the kunai, he didn't need to evade it because of his space-time technique.. he literally talked about it, so you're denying facts

and minato threw the kunai infront of him right before he was infront of obito, and timed his FTG based on the kunai speed after it passed right through obito, so he can easily time his attacks and react based on his kunai speed which according to you(after a million times, still going in circles) is faster than tobirama, so all what's left is for you to concede here.


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> obito reacted to the kunai, he didn't need to evade it because of his space-time technique.. he literally talked about it, so you're denying facts
> 
> and minato threw the kunai infront of him right before he was infront of obito, and timed his FTG based on the kunai speed after it passed right through obito, so he can easily time his attacks and react based on his kunai speed which according to you(after a million times, still going in circles) is faster than tobirama, so all what's left is for you to concede here.


Okay prove Obito could have physical evaded it. 

He didn’t react to his Kunai physically; he activated FTG in response to it.

We directly see the Kunai is moving faster then Minato can physically so I’ll accept your concession any time


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Obito have reacted to BM Naruto, who in turn was fast enough to move to deflect several TBBs from point blank( which are much faster than any kunai hope to be), really he reacted to it and just ignored it and he even implied his ignorance after Minato used FTG

look, i have nothing against you at all and the fact i continued this for so long with you shows that i had hope for you, but you're just arguing for arguing at this point and not presenting anything productive, your claim that Tobirama can blitz Minato already fell apart long ago by many facts mentioned by me and others whether you concede or not, but your lack of acceptance to the truth gives a bad impression for me and many others here to continue.. so really at this point just believe what you want..


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> Obito have reacted to BM Naruto, who in turn was fast enough to move to deflect several TBBs from point blank( which are much faster than any kunai hope to be), really he reacted to it and just ignored it and he even implied his ignorance after Minato used FTG
> 
> look, i have nothing against you at all and the fact i continued this for so long with you shows that i had hope for you, but you're just arguing for arguing at this point and not presenting anything productive, your claim that Tobirama can blitz Minato already fell apart long ago by many facts mentioned by me and others whether you concede or not, but your lack of acceptance to the truth gives a bad impression for me and many others here to continue.. so really at this point just believe what you want..


Literally that first point had nothing to do with anything.

And you saying my point is wrong is not a real argument

I showed you directly that Minato can throw a Kunai faster then he can physically move; so how could he physical evade one at point blank range. The answer is he obviously cant; you’ve resorted to these personal attack now just like Hussein because your argument has been countered and you don’t know what else to say.

To which I say okay cool....next contender please


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## Hardcore (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Literally that first point had nothing to do with anything.
> 
> And you saying my point is wrong is not a real argument
> 
> ...



it had everything you needed to know but again you ignored what you can't respond to

you didn't show me anything, minato throwing the kunai right infront of him before engaging obito doesn't mean it is faster than him, also even IF it is, it is also faster than tobirama as per your argument and minato can react to his kunai's speed since he timed his FTG exactly like he wanted, and once again i gave you a response that you do not deserve, not like you will ever concede that tobirama is in no way blitzing minato which is your main claim that i feel that you are a little ashamed of now at least given your focus on just minato's speed

and i haven't attacked you personally at all, don't go clowning acting like you're a victim

have a nice day


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> it had everything you needed to know but again you ignored what you can't respond to
> 
> you didn't show me anything, minato throwing the kunai right infront of him before engaging obito doesn't mean it is faster than him, also even IF it is, it is also faster than tobirama as per your argument and minato can react to his kunai's speed since he timed his FTG exactly like he wanted, and once again i gave you a response that you do not deserve, not like you will ever concede that tobirama is in no way blitzing minato which is your main claim that i feel that you are a little ashamed of now at least given your focus on just minato's speed
> 
> ...


No I simply don’t get what any of that has to do with anything.

Do you not understand that the Kunai reached Obito befor Minato was physically able to?

Do you simply not understand the difference between physically reacting and using FTG?

Saying I’m arguing for just the sake of arguing is a personal attack....


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> So your saying you have a different tranlation? That says something different?
> He does not say that Minato's Shunshin is faster there?
> 
> Please enlighten us as to what words he did use.
> ...


1. Tobirama says in the raw Japanese that Minato Shunshin usage is better; and he calls FTG Shunshin for whatever reason. So it’s not that Minato faster it’s that his application of FTG is better

2. He threw a Kunai to Sakura and Naruto; and teleported there, so why is it a leap in logic that he did the same to get to the battlefield?

3. What did you say before sorry if I missed it, I’ll gladly address it

4. He doesn’t have that prepped before hand though; that’s a make he applied in the moment, while Minato has like 20+ prepreppes FTG kunai at any time


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## kokodeshide (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> We directly see the Kunai is moving faster then Minato can physically so I’ll accept your concession any time


He threw it when running. If I can throw a ball at 30 mph, and I can run at 30 mph, when I'm running and I throw the ball it will go 60 mph, this is basic shit.



Turrin said:


> To which I say okay cool....next contender please

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> He threw it when running. If I can throw a ball at 30 mph, and I can run at 30 mph, when I'm running and I throw the ball it will go 60 mph, this is basic shit.


He most likely also threw the Kunai towards the battlefield while running; as all the Hokage were running towards the battlefield.

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (Feb 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He most likely also threw the Kunai towards the battlefield while running; as all the Hokage were running towards the battlefield.


Most likely or did? If "most likely" you better bring proof. We have never seen him travel like that at all. Ever.


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Most likely or did? If "most likely" you better bring proof. We have never seen him travel like that at all. Ever.


We saw him throw the Kunai while running and teleport to it in the original gif I posted. Also I don’t see why he would be standing still while the other Hokage were running towards the battlefield.

Also the burden of proof on what Minato did is not on me; it’s on anyone whose trying to use Minato arrive on the battlefield fist to prove he’s physically faster then Tobirama; as that argument relies on Minato using Shunshin to get to the battlefield, which needs to be proved. Especially when we see him arrive next to Naruto and Sakura using FTG


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## kokodeshide (Feb 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> We saw him throw the Kunai while running and teleport to it in the original gif I posted. Also I don’t see why he would be standing still while the other Hokage were running towards the battlefield.


Firstly, he did that to attack, not to travel. Not like Gai uses 7th gate to run in between villages.
Second. Why does him not using FTG mean he is standing still?



Turrin said:


> Also the burden of proof on what Minato did is not on me; it’s on anyone whose trying to use Minato arrive on the battlefield fist to prove he’s physically faster then Tobirama; as that argument relies on Minato using Shunshin to get to the battlefield, which needs to be proved. Especially when we see him arrive next to Naruto and Sakura using FTG


The two methods of ninja travel are basic human movements and shunshin. It is up to you to prove Minato using FTG for long distance travel. And in every single scene of him long distance traveling he isn't using FTG, so no, you have to prove it.

He appeared next to them because he place 4 tag in a square shape then warped to the one he threw at naruto.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 18, 2019)

Minato being faster than Tobirama isn't what's going to grant him the win. 
What's stopping Tobirama from just using FTG to escape as well? 

Tobirama is more crafty than Minato. He will be able to outsmart Minato via much more experience with FTG and craftiness.


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## Trojan (Feb 18, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> What's stopping Tobirama from just using FTG to escape as well?


Minato is superior to him in both Shunshin and FTG. What are the chances that he can escape from him?

We have seen Minato Vs The Raikage. The Raikage has a superior Shunshin, and he still was the inferior one (Even with back up)
We have seen Minato Vs Obito. This time, Obito has the superior S/T jutsu, and he still lost.

Tobirama is outclassed in both of them, what are the chances that he would do better then? 



Sapherosth said:


> Tobirama is more crafty than Minato


Based on what? Can you show us some examples?



> via much more experience


what more experience? 
and how did experience help Kakuzu Vs Naruto
or Danzo Vs Sasuke?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Feb 18, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Minato is superior to him in both Shunshin and FTG. What are the chances that he can escape from him?



Same reason why Minato can't finish Bee? 

Or are you arguing that a young Bee is more crafty and has faster reflex than Tobirama who has inside knowledge of FTG?  



> We have seen Minato Vs The Raikage. The Raikage has a superior Shunshin, and he still was the inferior one (Even with back up)
> We have seen Minato Vs Obito. This time, Obito has the superior S/T jutsu, and he still lost.




So? Both of them aren't Tobirama. 



> Tobirama is outclassed in both of them, what are the chances that he would do better then?



Are you telling me only shunshin and S/T matter in a fight? Might as well say Minato beat EMS Madara as well since Minato has Madara "outclassed" in both. 



> Based on what? Can you show us some examples?



Based on Madara's statement on Tobirama and what Tobirama showed vs Juubito and Madara. 



> what more experience?



Are you telling me that Tobirama's experience and knowledge with FTG won't matter in this fight? 



> and how did experience help Kakuzu Vs Naruto
> or Danzo Vs Sasuke?



Kakuzu didn't have experience that was relevant to facing someone like Naruto. 
Likewise, you could easily argue that Tobirama's experience fighting against Uchiha's would grant him the ability to avoid sharingan genjutsu for example. Kakuzu wouldn't have this benefit of the doubt. 

Just look at Kakashi & Gai being prepared to face the Rinnegan's abilities just based on the intel they got from Pain invading Konoha. They already have strategies/tactics in place to counter them. 

Experience/Knowledge matters a lot more than you think, especially with Minato v Tobirama debates.


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## Trojan (Feb 18, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> Same reason why Minato can't finish Bee?
> 
> Or are you arguing that a young Bee is more crafty and has faster reflex than Tobirama who has inside knowledge of FTG?


there is a difference between "can't finish" and "did not want to finish"

Based on your first sentence, then yes. Young B would be better and has faster reflexes than Tobirama if he dealt with someone superior to Tobirama. 



Sapherosth said:


> So? Both of them aren't Tobirama.


Yes, both of them has better things than Tobirama compared to Minato. (Shunshin on A's case, and Kamui on Obito's case)
where Tobirama is inferior in both cases.



Sapherosth said:


> Are you telling me only shunshin and S/T matter in a fight? Might as well say Minato beat EMS Madara as well since Minato has Madara "outclassed" in both.


dumb comparison.

All Tobirama has is his speed. Obviously, it will matter immensely if he is the slower one.
Where Asspulldara's fighting style is not based around speed.



Sapherosth said:


> Based on Madara's statement on Tobirama and what Tobirama showed vs Juubito and Madara.


how does Asspulldara's statement about Tobirama being "crafty" mean "oh shit Tobirama! You are the craftiest person who has ever been created"? Please do explain...



Sapherosth said:


> Are you telling me that Tobirama's experience and knowledge with FTG won't matter in this fight?


Not really. Because he only has FTG as well and his opponent has experience and knowledge of FTG.

when Minato fought those Ninja during the 3rd War Arc, it's not that they did not know how the jutsu works, it's how it was being used.



Sapherosth said:


> Kakuzu didn't have experience that was relevant to facing someone like Naruto. Likewise, you could easily argue that Tobirama's experience fighting against Uchiha's would grant him the ability to avoid sharingan genjutsu for example. Kakuzu wouldn't have this benefit of the doubt.



Ok?
Minato has experience with a more advanced version of FTG. How does "Tobirama's experience" change anything in this battle then?
Are you saying Tobirama would know about FTG, but Minato won't? 



Sapherosth said:


> Experience/Knowledge matters a lot more than you think, especially with Minato v Tobirama debates.


except not in the point you are making. 

If anything, Minato's experience is the better one here. As I said, he has experience on his more advanced version and already know about Tobirama's outdated version. Where Tobirama knows well about the outdated version but not the updated one.

That's like saying if someone lived at what 1990 or something and died at that time. His experience with cell-phones will be better than someone who is using the newly updated cell(smart?)-phones that were released in 2018 for example.


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Firstly, he did that to attack, not to travel. Not like Gai uses 7th gate to run in between villages.
> Second. Why does him not using FTG mean he is standing still?
> 
> The two methods of ninja travel are basic human movements and shunshin. It is up to you to prove Minato using FTG for long distance travel. And in every single scene of him long distance traveling he isn't using FTG, so no, you have to prove it.
> ...


We saw him use FTG to travel to Sakura and Naruto. That’s also how he makes his entrance into the War battlefield 

Thats long distance travel across the battlefield


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## kokodeshide (Feb 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> We saw him use FTG to travel to Sakura and Naruto. That’s also how he makes his entrance into the War battlefield
> 
> Thats long distance travel across the battlefield


From where did he do that? He did that from a spot where he could place a "box" around the juubi. That isn't the same thing as traveling hundreds of miles. 
He literally shunshin'd there, placed his tags warped the juubidama, warped to the tag.
In reality, he probably didn't use the same jutsu to warp the juubidama that he used to warp the Juubidama, because the juubidama disappeared instantly. So, he touched the juubidama, warped to the ocean, then warped to the tag he threw before as it landed next to Naruto.

The 3rd Hokage would not reference speed if Minato used FTG to go to the battlefield as S/T jutsu is not speed. This is repeated in the databook, and by Shino and Kakashi. So no matter how you want to twist it, Minato IS faster.

Tobirama still beats him in a fight though as Tobirama MASSIVELY outdoes Minato in combat speed.
Shunshin speed, out of 100, if A4 is 100.
Minato 60
Hiruzen 54
Tobirama 53
Hashirama 52

Combat speed
If Hiruzen is 100
Tobirama is like 95
Minato is no higher than 75
A4 is like 50.

Just *basic* representations. 

A4 is pure straight line speed. Minato is mostly combat speed, but he also has top tier straight line speed. 
Tobirama isn't quite as fast, but still well above him in combat speed.


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> From where did he do that? He did that from a spot where he could place a "box" around the juubi. That isn't the same thing as traveling hundreds of miles.
> He literally shunshin'd there, placed his tags warped the juubidama, warped to the tag.
> In reality, he probably didn't use the same jutsu to warp the juubidama that he used to warp the Juubidama, because the juubidama disappeared instantly. So, he touched the juubidama, warped to the ocean, then warped to the tag he threw before as it landed next to Naruto.
> 
> ...



1. Huh who said he teleported accross miles to the battlefield?

As I said to others he likely traveled with the Hokage towards the battlefield and then when they got close threw Kunai towards the battlefield and teleported to them

2. Horizon reference speed in terms of how quick Minato was able to spread markers this is a physical feat but aided by his pre-preped Kunai and FTG

3. FTG is included in speed; Ei clearly includes it when he says Minato was faster then him; referencing a flashback where Minato outspends him with FTG

4. Hiruzen isn’t even in the same universe as Tobirama in combat speed. Dude has a 3 in Db


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## kokodeshide (Feb 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Huh who said he teleported accross miles to the battlefield?
> 
> As I said to others he likely traveled with the Hokage towards the battlefield and then when they got close threw Kunai towards the battlefield and teleported to them


Ok, and you are saying it took Tobirama and gang minutes to travel hundreds of miles, and then another minute to travel the last maybe mile? That makes no sense.



Turrin said:


> 2. Horizon reference speed in terms of how quick Minato was able to spread markers this is a physical feat but aided by his pre-preped Kunai and FTG


Nope, because he ASKS shortly after that he "Takes it that he prepared the markings". Why would he reference it 2 times? Why would he mention his speed then also ASK about his markings if he was talking about the same thing. Did he forget that he placed them?



Turrin said:


> 3. FTG is included in speed; Ei clearly includes it when he says Minato was faster then him; referencing a flashback where Minato outspends him with FTG


Nope. Databook backs up that FTG is confused for Substitution, a Shunshin variant, which is speed. 
Shino and Kakashi and the databook all prove this wrong.



Turrin said:


> 4. Hiruzen isn’t even in the same universe as Tobirama in combat speed. Dude has a 3 in Db


3 in the DB yet outspeeds sasuke a 4.5 in the DB. Databook stats don't relate to each other. 

Hiruzen not only actually partially dodged Juubitos attack, Tobirama could only manage to trade attack, but he also totally outclassed Tobirama when he saved Naruto before Tobirama could even reach halfway. He is also stated to be better than tobirama. He is also the CQC hokage, He is completely confident in his ability to assrape Orochimaru and the edo kage, which he did the moment he got serious. Tobirama is a joke in comparison. In portrayal, in feats, in hype, in reality, Tobirama has literally NEVER outperformed Hiruzen. Ever.


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Ok, and you are saying it took Tobirama and gang minutes to travel hundreds of miles, and then another minute to travel the last maybe mile? That makes no sense.
> 
> Nope, because he ASKS shortly after that he "Takes it that he prepared the markings". Why would he reference it 2 times? Why would he mention his speed then also ASK about his markings if he was talking about the same thing. Did he forget that he placed them?
> 
> ...


1. Where are you getting the minutes time frames? 

2. He was asking the second time if he placed the marking in the right place to form the barrier; while the first time he was saying Minato was quick to get his marking to the battlefield 

3. When did he outspeed Sasuke?

4. Tobirama trading attacks with Juubito shunshin is more impressive then what Hiruzen did; and Tobirama reacted first to Naruto being grabbed by the God Tree with Suidenha before Hiruzen


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## Hardcore (Feb 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 4. *Tobirama trading attacks with Juubito shunshin* is more impressive then what Hiruzen did; and Tobirama reacted first to Naruto being grabbed by the God Tree with Suidenha before Hiruzen



not that i'm going to continue this, but out of curiosity, when did the bold happen

i remember tobirama getting blitzed by juubiti and getting half destroyed


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## kokodeshide (Feb 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Where are you getting the minutes time frames?


Common sense, many many things and conversations happened in between the kages leaving Konoha and arriving at the battlefield.
When Minato arrived, Minato did 2 and had a conversation with naruto before the thr kage showed up. Regardless, It could be 10 seconds, ouldnt make any sense that they could travel so far so fast then suddenly dramatically slow down.



Turrin said:


> 2. He was asking the second time if he placed the marking in the right place to form the barrier; while the first time he was saying Minato was quick to get his marking to the battlefield


WHAT? No he wasn't. Lets use the viz quotes.
"Minato, you're as fast as ever," STATEMENT
Then later.
"You already placed your markers?" QUESTION
Then Tobirama says
"You're quick at striking too!"

Please, Turrin, PLEASE, Tell me you are not this deep into Tobirama? Bro, he wins the fight, this one aspect is so fucking pointless to your overall goal, concede.
He never asks did you place them in the right spot, he would have NO REASON to ask if he placed him IF he knew he already placed them. There is no logic in that. None, at all. He see's him set it up, then asked if he set it up?


Turrin said:


> 3. When did he outspeed Sasuke?


 He made it to the battlefield before sasuke. he also reacted to Juubito when Sasuke got blitzed no diff.



Turrin said:


> 4. Tobirama trading attacks with Juubito shunshin is more impressive then what Hiruzen did; and Tobirama reacted first to Naruto being grabbed by the God Tree with Suidenha before Hiruzen


More impressive, yes, a better speed feat, no. 

He should have reacted 1st, he was closer, and even though he was closer AND already reacting, Hiruzen STILL beat him to Naruto AND saves him by performing several actions then leaves to meet up with the approaching Tobirama. How is that not a better speed AND combat feat?


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Common sense, many many things and conversations happened in between the kages leaving Konoha and arriving at the battlefield.
> When Minato arrived, Minato did 2 and had a conversation with naruto before the thr kage showed up. Regardless, It could be 10 seconds, ouldnt make any sense that they could travel so far so fast then suddenly dramatically slow down.
> 
> 
> ...


1. Deva and Naruto exchanges dialog in a few seconds according to kishi; really hard to judge time in manga 

2. Hiruzen did not know where he placed markers it’s that simple; and it’s not a matter of being into Tobirama we see him out perform Minato 3 times 

3. And again making it to the battlefield first shouldn’t be a good judge of speed as we don’t know what all of them were doing off panel; did Sasuke hang back longer and talk to Oro before they went off to Tsunade. So many things could have happened; Sasuke has better feats otherwise and the author telling is he’s faster several arcs ago

4. He did react first with Suidenha...


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## kokodeshide (Feb 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Deva and Naruto exchanges dialog in a few seconds according to kishi; really hard to judge time in manga


That is only true in action scenes. They have a straight up conversation as nothing was happening.



Turrin said:


> 2. Hiruzen did not know where he placed markers it’s that simple; and it’s not a matter of being into Tobirama we see him out perform Minato 3 times


If he didnt know WHERE he would have asked WHERE did you place them, not DID you place them. He would ONLY asked DID you place them IF he DIDN'T know. This is basic language. You cannot seriously argue this.

Yes, we see him outperform Minato, in everything but shunshin speed. That's it. Yet you want to hammer it in that Tobirama is better in every way therefore he wins when he doesn't need to be. He wins either way. 



Turrin said:


> 3. And again making it to the battlefield first shouldn’t be a good judge of speed as we don’t know what all of them were doing off panel; did Sasuke hang back longer and talk to Oro before they went off to Tsunade. So many things could have happened; Sasuke has better feats otherwise and the author telling is he’s faster several arcs ago


 You would have to prove all that. All we know is that they rushed to the battlefield. 
Sasuke does not have better feats than Hiruzen in speed. Sasuke got wtfblitzed by Juubitos top half. Hiruzen reacted to Juubito 2 times. 



Turrin said:


> 4. He did react first with Suidenha...


Cool, what does that mean, he reacted first cause he saw it first, yet STILL lost the speed battle to Hiruzen.


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> That is only true in action scenes. They have a straight up conversation as nothing was happening.
> 
> If he didnt know WHERE he would have asked WHERE did you place them, not DID you place them. He would ONLY asked DID you place them IF he DIDN'T know. This is basic language. You cannot seriously argue this.
> 
> ...



I’ll explain it again;

Minato and the other Hokage were likely traveling together towards the battlefield as a single unit. On their way they discussed he strategy of using the barrier to contain the Juubi. They got close to the battlefield around the time Juubi was bringing out its TBB, which they sensed. Knowing the alliance was in danger Minato probably said he’d take care of it and threw a FTG Kunai towards the battlefield and teleported away.

After reaching the battlefield and deflecting Juubi TBB; Minato then tosses FTG Kunai around the Juubi and one towards Sakura/Naruto; teleporting to the last one

The Hokage then arrive together near Sakura and Naruto (using Shunshin or foot-speed).

Hiruzen compliments Minato for being quick; as Minato was able to get a marker to the battlefield in time to deflect the Juubi TBB. But Hiruzen doesn’t know if Minato also had time yet to set up markers around Juubi, as he only saw him throw one FTG Kunai towards the battlefield, so he asks Minato if he’s also done this.

Tobirama compliments Minato that his FTG usage is better then his; as he just saw an innovation to his Jutsu; Minato using Pre-prepped FTG Kunai which he carries a shit ton of allowing him to spread makers around the battlefield quicker then Tobirama who manually creates them can.

.....

Now please tell me what part of that doesn’t make sense and couldn’t have happened. If you can’t lets move on from this point; that Minato arriving to the battlefield first using FTG makes him physically faster then Tobirama


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> not that i'm going to continue this, but out of curiosity, when did the bold happen
> 
> i remember tobirama getting blitzed by juubiti and getting half destroyed


In the same time frame he places explosive notes and FTG marker on Juubito. The blows being traded so fasts that KCM Naruto couldn’t even see what happend


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> After reaching the battlefield and deflecting Juubi TBB; Minato then tosses FTG Kunai around the Juubi and one towards Sakura/Naruto; teleporting to the last one


After teleporting the TBB and teleported towards Naruto, Minato never threw any Kunai.
It's amazing how much you want to sink for your headcanon. 

here are ALL the pages after Minato teleported in front of Naruto

*Spoiler*: _1_ 













where did he throw any additional Kunais?


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## Mindovin (Feb 19, 2019)

Hussain said:


> After teleporting the TBB and teleported towards Naruto, Minato never threw any Kunai.
> It's amazing how much you want to sink for your headcanon.
> 
> here are ALL the pages after Minato teleported in front of Naruto
> ...


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

what do you mean "this one" ?


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## Mindovin (Feb 19, 2019)

Hussain said:


> what do you mean "this one" ?


in the first scan he throws the kunai and in the 2. scan he teleports


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

Mindovin said:


> in the first scan he throws the kunai and in the 2. scan he teleports


According to turrin's headcanon, Minato threw that Kunai either
1- by itself: in which case, it's supposed to be the first Kunai he threw to teleport to the battlefield first. 
Hence, the other Hokages not knowing about the rest of the Kunais. 

2- he threw it alongside the other Kunais all at once (in which case Hiruzen would have asked about them). which does not go well with his other headcanon.


As you can see, Turrin has a rock-hard turn-on on Tobirama now, and he is trying to reach the "headcanon" that could
explain all the holes in, but either headcanon of his that he presented so far does not explain anything.


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## Hi no Ishi (Feb 19, 2019)

Hmm, never got a notification... weird.
My bad I guess. Didn't see the reply.



Turrin said:


> 1. Tobirama says in the raw Japanese that Minato Shunshin usage is better; and he calls FTG Shunshin for whatever reason. So it’s not that Minato faster it’s that his application of FTG is better


So yes he did say exactly what I and the other two translations I brought said.

Instead of repeating falsehoods over an over you could have at least said something like "Yes he did say that Minato was better at shunshin but I believe that he meant FTG because...reasons." and been some what accurate about it.

It's only your assumption that he is calling Shunshin FTG there then and not at all what he said.

Yes I am aware he has called FTG shunshin before, no that does not translate to EVERY instance of the word shunshin meaning FTG now.


Turrin said:


> 2. He threw a Kunai to Sakura and Naruto; and teleported there, so why is it a leap in logic that he did the same to get to the battlefield?


Like I said before for my side to be true all I have to do is assume a) that the guy who got there first is faster b) that the manga and databook are correct in calling Minato the fastest c)that Tobirama's direct statement means what it says, Hiruzen's confirmation backs it up.
Aka believing the information actually given.

Your position requires that one believe A) throwing a Kunai one at a time and jump once at a time means that he always travels long distances by FTG leap frogging rather than Shunshin 

B) Minato could have FTG'd with them but left them behind for no reason.

C) He either used hundreds of kunai to travel across countries or stopped and picked the same one up over and over. Based entirely on him throwing a kunai once.

D) Tobirama saw this but chose not to also teleport himself or the others to Minato's Kunai, a thing he does repeatedly in the war and had no reason not to do there.

There is simply to many unstated things you are relying upon while trying to invalidate stated information.

Occam's Razor says no.





Turrin said:


> 3. What did you say before sorry if I missed it, I’ll gladly address it


No worries, I reiterated it above.  



Turrin said:


> 4. He doesn’t have that prepped before hand though; that’s a make he applied in the moment, while Minato has like 20+ prepreppes FTG kunai at any time


A) You literally have no idea when he marked that Kunai.  He simply is never shown with a pile of them like Minato.

B) He is shown teleporting scrubs away from danger using Minato's Kunai and that's also how he got Sasuke to Naruto which even Naruto knew he would be able to to do.

The amount Tobirama carries has nothing to do with my argument becaise he doesn't need them to follow Minato in this situation.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> D) Tobirama saw this but chose not to also teleport himself or the others to Minato's Kunai, a thing he does repeatedly in the war and had no reason not to do there.


For the record, Tobirama cannot use Minato's FTG without Minato allowing that and a chakra link between them...


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2019)

@Hi no Ishi

1. Yes any translation using the word “faster” or “quicker” are wrong. The correct translation is “usage” is better. So yeah on the Viz is correct.

2. Minato uses FTG to get to Naruto and Sakura; and then Tobirama says his Shunshin usage is better then his; later on he then refers to FTG as Shunshin; natural assumption is that he was talking about FTG the first time too. If you want to prove otherwise be my guest...but the burden of proof if on you as this is your point. I do not use this as a point one way or another; I use the actual clear combats feats

3. I’ll explain it again;

Minato and the other Hokage were likely traveling together towards the battlefield as a single unit. On their way they discussed he strategy of using the barrier to contain the Juubi. They got close to the battlefield around the time Juubi was bringing out its TBB, which they sensed. Knowing the alliance was in danger Minato probably said he’d take care of it and threw a FTG Kunai towards the battlefield and teleported away.

After reaching the battlefield and deflecting Juubi TBB; Minato then tosses FTG Kunai around the Juubi and one towards Sakura/Naruto; teleporting to the last one

The Hokage then arrive together near Sakura and Naruto (using Shunshin or foot-speed).

Hiruzen compliments Minato for being quick; as Minato was able to get a marker to the battlefield in time to deflect the Juubi TBB. But Hiruzen doesn’t know if Minato also had time yet to set up markers around Juubi, as he only saw him throw one FTG Kunai towards the battlefield, so he asks Minato if he’s also done this.

Tobirama compliments Minato that his FTG usage is better then his; as he just saw an innovation to his Jutsu; Minato using Pre-prepped FTG Kunai which he carries a shit ton of allowing him to spread makers around the battlefield quicker then Tobirama who manually creates them
——
Now prove the above couldn’t have happened; if you can’t drop the point. Just repeating that you find my view of events unlikely isn’t an argument and is pointless as I obviously find your view of events equally as unlikely

And as far as Orcamz Razor goes we saw Minato arrive next to Naruto and Sakura using FTG so the simplest explanation is that he used FTG to get their first;  assuming he used Shunshin and then FTG requires more speculation...

4. Sure it does; for Tobirama to recreate Minatos feat he’d need to have many marked Kunai already; as Minato not only got to the battlefield but spread Kunai out and deflected the TBB; Tobirama has never been shown to have Pre-marked Kunai; so he would need to manually mark several Kunai before going to the battlefield; this would always take longer then Minato simply throwing an already marked Kunai.

That’s why Minato is a better FTG user because he can do shit like Rasen Flash Dance which requires pulling out 6 Pre-Marked Kunai in an instant; or showing up throwing 5 Kunai around the battlefield immediately. Tobirama cant do that


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## Mindovin (Feb 19, 2019)

Hussain said:


> According to turrin's headcanon, Minato threw that Kunai either
> 1- by itself: in which case, it's supposed to be the first Kunai he threw to teleport to the battlefield first.
> Hence, the other Hokages not knowing about the rest of the Kunais.
> 
> ...



Imo Minato is faster and he can teleport longer range with his FTG (Tobirama couldn't teleport his Team to Konoha when they trapped by Gin-Kin) and characters don't use their max speed unless their if they don't mention it otherwise we see lots of blitzing.

Considering Minato placed 3 kunai in specific locations and 4 Hokage seems to have a plan and act accordingly to it (, ) and  but this doesn't mean he teleport from Konoha to the battlefield (iirc in the Forest Country and iirc is neighbor to the Land of Lightning) and I don't think that happened.

Also, Minato faster than A4 at normal speed  and considering he doesn't have FTG he can't compare it.


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

Mindovin said:


> Imo Minato is faster and he can teleport longer range with his FTG (Tobirama couldn't teleport his Team to Konoha when they trapped by Gin-Kin) and characters don't use their max speed unless their if they don't mention it otherwise we see lots of blitzing.
> 
> Considering Minato placed 3 kunai in specific locations and 4 Hokage seems to have a plan and act accordingly to it (, ) and  but this doesn't mean he teleport from Konoha to the battlefield (iirc in the Forest Country and iirc is neighbor to the Land of Lightning) and I don't think that happened.
> 
> Also, Minato faster than A4 at normal speed  and considering he doesn't have FTG he can't compare it.



Yeah, it's pretty obvious that it's what Kishi was trying to convey.
Turrin is currently wearing that Tobirama's wank goggles, and that's why he can't see the obvious...

Funny enough, there are exact same situations that happened against Tobirama (Hiruzen saving Naruto before him for example)
and yet he is blinding himself from that as well and does not want to admit that based on his logic, Hiruzen should also be faster than Tobirama.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I’ll explain it again;
> 
> *Minato and the other Hokage were likely traveling together towards the battlefield as a single unit.* On their way they discussed he strategy of using the barrier to contain the Juubi. *They got close to the battlefield around the time Juubi was bringing out its TBB, which they sensed. Knowing the alliance was in danger Minato probably said he’d take care of it and threw a FTG Kunai towards the battlefield and teleported away.*
> 
> ...


I bolded everything that is ABSOLUTE SPECULATION. You are making the statement, you have to prove it.



Turrin said:


> Hiruzen compliments Minato for being quick; as Minato was able to get a marker to the battlefield in time to deflect the Juubi TBB. But Hiruzen doesn’t know if Minato also had time yet to set up markers around Juubi, as he only saw him throw one FTG Kunai towards the battlefield, so he asks Minato if he’s also done this.
> 
> Tobirama compliments Minato that his FTG usage is better then his; as he just saw an innovation to his Jutsu; Minato using Pre-prepped FTG Kunai which he carries a shit ton of allowing him to spread makers around the battlefield quicker then Tobirama who manually creates them can.
> 
> ...



The key to dismantling this ENTIRE post, is Tobirama. Tobirama says that he strikes fast TOO. That implies his use of FTG use is NOT what he used against the Juubidama. 
The other thing is, Tobirama could have done the same thing in your eyes. He could have tagged a kunai and thrown it just as well as Minato yet he didn't, despite being faster in combat. The only reasons could be he is dumb, or he didnt get there fast enough. It would have made more sense for Tobirama to deal with the part of the shit. He knows how to throw a kunai. 

Regardless, You are changing your story, You are not addressing points. Is it really such a bad thing to admit that tobirama has ONE thing he is worse at than minato? By a factor of like 5 percent? 

You fail to address that FTG is NOT speed. Shino, DB, Kakashi all confirm this. Hiruzen being the fucking professor would know it wasn't speed.
You are not addressing the fact that their are 3 separate arrivals indicating they all were moving at different speeds.
You are not addressing that at most minato doubles his speed by throwing a FTG kunai. Moving at the speed they were, they still should have landed within a second of each other. It took a significant amount of time for the other hokage to arrive. And entire explosion had to play out and then a conversation and THEN they arrived. Why did tobirama arrive that way then? He could have if he really wanted to. 

Your example makes no logical sense. It sound nice and fairy tale like for tobirama, but it is CLEARLY shit that you made up. Its like when another poster told me Itachi could have killed Nagato at any moment, but that would have been too easy so he made it a challenge. That is what you are doing.

Just tell me this. Tell me this makes less sense. Tell me what is assumed or BS about this interpretation.
Obviously they planned the barrier at some point. They have no reason to stick together as we see sasukes was slower to arrive so we know they didnt. Tobirama and Hiruzen have already shown speed above Sasuke so that makes sense. Plus, talking about a barrier takes 30 seconds tops.
Minato is slightly ahead of them and arrives first, 
throws his Kunai set up, warps the ball away, warps to the kunai as it lands where naruto is. 
boom. 
talks to nardo and co, 
other kage land. Hiruzen compliments minatos actual speed. Tobirama either concurs, OR, he is talking about minatos warping of the TBB, which Tobirama could sense. Then is surprised he also set up the kunai, something he could not sense and also not see as he was nowhere near the area. Hiruzen then asks if he set up the Kunai as he was no where near the area when minato arrived. It is so simple.

Let me ask you this as well. Does it make more sense for minato to warp there BY HIMSELF when he is RIGHT NEXT TO the other hokage, including 2 gods of shinobi, and Tobirama, fuckin devil of shinobi, instead of warping ALL of them there at the same time? That is ridiculous, If he was near them, he would have just used FTG to bring them along.
You gotta concede this point eventually, man. You are arguing with assumptions only at this point.


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Regardless, You are changing your story, You are not addressing points. Is it really such a bad thing to admit that tobirama has ONE thing he is worse at than minato? By a factor of like 5 percent?


Turrin realizes (at least given him the benefit of the doubts) that Tobirama's character is all about speed. 
So, admitting Minato is faster than Tobirama will mean his headcanon world will all fall apart...


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2019)

@kokodeshide

I obviously think my explanation makes more sense so I’m not going to even bother with that. And yes it’s speculation, but so is your version of events. This is why I specifically do not use this event to evaluate ether character as it requires heavily speculation on what each character did or discussed off panel. The bottom line is that nether of us can prove our versions; all we know is Tobirama concluded that Minato was better at FTG after these events, but better is not faster.

So I look at other events we see happen more directly in-front of us to evaluate; and Tobirama in all cases out performs KCM-Minato let alone base Minato. That tells me that that Tobirama is faster. 

I also don’t accept arguments that rely on characters doing the most logical thing as we can play that game till the cows come home as characters rarely do the smartest thing, so again I ask can you prove anything, no, okay.. well then let’s move on an discuss something else


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## kokodeshide (Feb 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @kokodeshide
> 
> I obviously think my explanation makes more sense so I’m not going to even bother with that. And yes it’s speculation, but so is your version of events. This is why I specifically do not use this event to evaluate ether character as it requires heavily speculation on what each character did or discussed off panel. The bottom line is that nether of us can prove our versions; all we know is Tobirama concluded that Minato was better at FTG after these events, but better is not faster.
> 
> ...


Turrin, the problem is, my assumption doesn't use methods that have never been seen in the manga whereas yours does. My assumptions are extremely minor, so minor I would say I am not even assuming them. I am going off what characters say. You are not. You are picking and choosing statements, I am not. I am using the manga, you are using your imagination.

When you say you wont't bother because you think your shit is right you are being close minded and not actually.

The reason your concession on this is important is because then it shows you are NOT close minded and you DO think rationally. Then EVERYONE would take you more seriously when it comes to Tobirama.

When you say I can't prove it, and therefore neither of us win, thats just a cheap copout. 
You like the Tobirama taking the TSB before Minato can even touch it, right? Here, how about this, prove Minato was trying his best. can you prove that yes or no. The answer is no. Therefore your Tobirama feat is invalidated because Minato was not trying his best so we don't know who is actually faster. We dont know when tobirama started moving. he could have been moving the entire time and only after minato moved his arm did Tobirama close in. 

It's so easy to tear apart arguments like that, that doesn't make you right or me wrong, it just takes the point out of even discussing it. Because the second I provide proof you will run behind the prove he was X prove he was Y until I have to prove how many calories were in a bite of toast that allowed him to output X amount of energy. All of the information IS NOT THERE, but I'm listing the info we have and you are NOT doing that. You are bringing in EXTRA speculation.




Hussain said:


> Turrin realizes (at least given him the benefit of the doubts) that Tobirama's character is all about speed.
> So, admitting Minato is faster than Tobirama will mean his headcanon world will all fall apart...


I will get through to him, I swear. He has some great points, but this one and the Hiruzen one, those are some...troubled ones.


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> I will get through to him, I swear. He has some great points, but this one and the Hiruzen one, those are some...troubled ones.


I don't know about having great points tbh. Yes, he used to have them back then (before his "retirement') but currently, I would say each one is worse than the last. 

ignoring a flat-out direct statement about Minato being faster than Tobirama by Tobirama himself
(even though the statement is not needed. The mere fact that Minato reached there first is proof out of itself)
is not even his worst.

the guy legitimately think BPS Rinnegan Sasuke is barely EMS Asspulldara's level, and if he were to be generous then sasuke might be
a little bit ahead.

same with RM Naruto & Hashirama 


that retirement was devastating for him, sadly... 



I honestly don't remember all the shit he said about itachi either. As he was wanking him as well before moving on to wanking Tobirama...


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## Grinningfox (Feb 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Turrin, the problem is, my assumption doesn't use methods that have never been seen in the manga whereas yours does. My assumptions are extremely minor, so minor I would say I am not even assuming them. I am going off what characters say. You are not. You are picking and choosing statements, I am not. I am using the manga, you are using your imagination.
> 
> When you say you wont't bother because you think your shit is right you are being close minded and not actually.
> 
> ...



I think Turrin has  some interesting points  as well but his agenda kneecaps them

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (Feb 19, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I don't know about having great points tbh. Yes, he used to have them back then (before his "retirement') but currently, I would say each one is worse than the last.
> 
> ignoring a flat-out direct statement about Minato being faster than Tobirama by Tobirama himself
> (even though the statement is not needed. The mere fact that Minato reached there first is proof out of itself)
> ...





Grinningfox said:


> I think Turrin has some interesting points as well but his agenda kneecaps them



IMO, the reason is because of this kind of stuff right here, if we can get him to budge on ONE THING and not shit on him for being honorable by conceding, the walls will come down. Turrin will be...free...


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Turrin, the problem is, my assumption doesn't use methods that have never been seen in the manga whereas yours does. My assumptions are extremely minor, so minor I would say I am not even assuming them. I am going off what characters say. You are not. You are picking and choosing statements, I am not. I am using the manga, you are using your imagination.
> 
> When you say you wont't bother because you think your shit is right you are being close minded and not actually.
> 
> ...


Wait what Minato showed that method when he used FTG to teleport to Naruto and Sakura... so I’m not following this post

And I think your concession is important for the very same reason otherwise wouldn’t even bother


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## kokodeshide (Feb 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Wait what Minato showed that method when he used FTG to teleport to Naruto and Sakura... so I’m not following this post
> 
> And I think your concession is important for the very same reason otherwise wouldn’t even bother


That is not long distance travel. That is travel from the juubidama, that was right next to them, to them. maybe a few hundred feet at most.


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## Hi no Ishi (Feb 19, 2019)

Hussain said:


> For the record, Tobirama cannot use Minato's FTG without Minato allowing that and a chakra link between them...


That's part of the issue though, friend, why would he watch Minato get to the battlefield and not say "lemme tag you, bro!" Even though they were all in a rush, Tobirama most of all?


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> That's part of the issue though, friend, why would he watch Minato get to the battlefield and not say "lemme tag you, bro!" Even though they were all in a rush, Tobirama most of all?



Well, tbh. Kishi hit the characters with a huge PIS throughout the war arc.
I was also surprised that since they knew about this all along (both Minato and Tobirama) why did Minato not link his chakra to Tobirama and used his tag on Obito as well. 

But I guess, it's mostly for the story-telling aspect. For example, when Obito started insulting Minato, it made sense that Kishi will make Tobirama the one teleporting Naruto and smash Obito to show Naruto standing up to his father.

It would have been strange/not as effective if it was Minato who did it... 

 Kishi kinda drove himself into the corner for having both of those characters having Copy & paste abilities, and fighting the same opponent at the same time. So, he had to hold one or the other back for a bit, so (mostly Tobirama since he is the weaker version) won't be overshadowed too much.

his copy paste with the other characters did not really matter that much since they did not fight alongside each other or fight each other for the most part either... 

But some people don't get how the story is being told... 


As for the question, the answer is fairly obvious which is the fact that Kishi was clearly saying "Minato is faster than Tobirama"
whether  Turrin likes it or not, it is what it is...


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## Hardcore (Feb 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> IMO, the reason is because of this kind of stuff right here, *if we can get him to budge on ONE THING *and not shit on him for being honorable by conceding, the walls will come down. Turrin will be...free...



i challenge you to do so 

 

i'll be the one doing it some day


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## kokodeshide (Feb 19, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> i challenge you to do so


He knows he is wrong, he dropped nearly all his points, I just need to have him verbalize it so that way real change can begin.


Hardcore said:


> i'll be the one doing it some day


 Live your dreams, son. Live. Your. Dreams.


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> He knows he is wrong, he dropped nearly all his points, I just need to have him verbalize it so that way real change can begin.




he drops one headcanon and then brings the next. There is no end to it. 
every time you prove one of his headcanon wrong, he brings another one that he thinks will fit his narrative more
now that the previous one was taken down...


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## Hardcore (Feb 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> He knows he is wrong, he dropped nearly all his points,



well let's see

is that true, @Turrin ?


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> That is not long distance travel. That is travel from the juubidama, that was right next to them, to them. maybe a few hundred feet at most.


And once again I told you that the Hokage were likely close to the battlefield when a Minato tosses Kunai towards it. We also see in Gaiden Minato tell fodder to toss Kunai to the other side of the battlefield for him to attack the opposition. 

This isn’t some crazy concept; Minato can simply throw Kunai faster then he can physically move, which is why we see him throwing Kunai at the target to his FTG attack all the time.


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> well let's see
> 
> is that true, @Turrin ?


Nah I just didn’t understand several his points and the other half was him saying he thinks I’m wrong and it’s like cool we’ll obviously I think your wrong too; does that even warrant a response... no it doesn’t

If someone wanted me to actually believe I was wrong they would address my points about what happened on panel with Tobirama our performing a KCM Minato: instead it’s all the same point about how Minato must be faster because he got to the battlefield first even though he used FTG and the other Hokage used Shunshin.

Edit; Also I’ve changed my stance a lot, I used to think Minato was stronger; and then I wasn’t sure; debating them is partially why I have realized Tobirama is a tier stronger because of how weak the opposing points are and how much they conflate KCM Minato abilities with Base Minato; no offense meant ether I used it do it but if your trying to convince me Base Minato is faster and can’t offer good explanation for why the guy is out performing KCM Minato that’s really not very convincing and only serves to convince me of the opposite


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## kokodeshide (Feb 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> And once again I told you that the Hokage were likely close to the battlefield when a Minato tosses Kunai towards it. We also see in Gaiden Minato tell fodder to toss Kunai to the other side of the battlefield for him to attack the opposition.
> 
> This isn’t some crazy concept; Minato can simply throw Kunai faster then he can physically move, which is why we see him throwing Kunai at the target to his FTG attack all the time.


Let me try another path, WHY is it likely?



Turrin said:


> Nah I just didn’t understand several his points and the other half was him saying he thinks I’m wrong and it’s like cool we’ll obviously I think your wrong too; does that even warrant a response... no it doesn’t


You dont understand them yet you think I'm still wrong. If you couldnt understand, how do you even know I'm wrong?



Turrin said:


> If someone wanted me to actually believe I was wrong they would address my points about what happened on panel with Tobirama our performing a KCM Minato: instead it’s all the same point about how Minato must be faster because he got to the battlefield first even though he used FTG and the other Hokage used Shunshin.


None of those moments were Shunshin vs Shunshin, turrin, there is a fuckin difference. I will address ANY point you want, and I nearly always address every point. You dodged several of my points to get to this stage. That is indicative of you knowing you lost this.


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Let me try another path, WHY is it likely?
> 
> 
> You dont understand them yet you think I'm still wrong. If you couldnt understand, how do you even know I'm wrong?
> ...


1. Because Kishi directly showed Minato arrive next to Sakura and Naruto using FTG; while showing the other Hokage arrive with Shunshin / Footspeed. Even the fist sign of Minato presence on the battlefield is a FTG Kunai being tossed in-Front of the Juubi TBB

2. You can clarify your points if you want; but if it’s more if this Minato arrives to the battlefield first stuff; I know it’s not going to convince me

3. All of those instances were physical speed be physical speed. And that’s my point Tobirama has higher physical speed; unless I’m missing something you disagree with this....

4. Here’s the first two points I would like you to answer. How much faster due you think KCM Minato is then Base Minato? Also how do you think KCM Naruto reactions compare to Base Minato’s?

Answer those and then we can go from there.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Because Kishi directly showed Minato arrive next to Sakura and Naruto using FTG; while showing the other Hokage arrive with Shunshin / Footspeed. Even the fist sign of Minato presence on the battlefield is a FTG Kunai being tossed in-Front of the Juubi TBB


 That signifies that he set up the square around Juubi, not that he warped to the battlefield.



Turrin said:


> 2. You can clarify your points if you want; but if it’s more if this Minato arrives to the battlefield first stuff; I know it’s not going to convince me


 What you are saying here is that there is NO way you can be convinced of this. You are saying that regardless of what i bring, you will reject it outright. Am i correct? If i had Kishimoto himself say that Minato arrived with Shunshin before Tobirama, would you still reject it?



Turrin said:


> 3. All of those instances were physical speed be physical speed. And that’s my point Tobirama has higher physical speed; unless I’m missing something you disagree with this....


Yes, you are missing something. Minatos physical speed isn't as fast as his Shunshin speed. Tobirama Shunshin'd to the orb and then FTG away. Faster than Minato could move his hand. BUT, that also means that Tobiramas hand is faster than Minatos, because tobirama would have had to lift his hand up as well. You got me all wrong here, bro. I'm with you on every part of Tobirama vs Minato except the shunshin speed.



Turrin said:


> 4. Here’s the first two points I would like you to answer. How much faster due you think KCM Minato is then Base Minato? Also how do you think KCM Naruto reactions compare to Base Minato’s?


KCM Minato in my eyes is not wayyyy faster than Base Minato, he shows zero evidence of this. Maybe if he had time to master the form he might have been way faster. But it seems to me that it's primarily a power boost just like the cloak naruto gave the army, didn't increase their speed as far as we know, only their power.
Or like how Killer Bees cloak massively increases his speed but the other Jinchuriki dont get the same. It varies from host to host it seems. Regardless, no feats suggest Minato got the same speed boost Naruto got.
KCM Naruto can react WAY better than Base Minato.


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> That signifies that he set up the square around Juubi, not that he warped to the battlefield.
> 
> What you are saying here is that there is NO way you can be convinced of this. You are saying that regardless of what i bring, you will reject it outright. Am i correct? If i had Kishimoto himself say that Minato arrived with Shunshin before Tobirama, would you still reject it?
> 
> ...


1. Cool prove he didn’t warp to the battlefield

2. You aren’t Kishimoto, so that’s irrelevant; and no at this point you won’t convince with this argument as I’ve seen all the points from you and other posters, and I don’t find them valid. 

3. If you agree that Tobirama physical speed is superior then you should agree that his Shunshin is also superior and there is no way Minato could reach the battlefield first; because of how Shunshin works.

“
*Body Flicker Technique (Shunshin no Jutsu)*
Ninjutsu, D-rank, Supplementary

Users: Gaara, Hatake Kakashi, et al

*A movement technique with extreme speed like a gust of wind!!*

Appearing along with the wind, disappearing like the wind: the ninja’s instantaneous movement technique. This super fast movement is almost impossible to grasp with the naked eye. If seen by an ordinary person, it would seem as if the user has teleported… In reality, the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds. The amount of chakra used up differs depending on the distance and elevation of their stopping point in comparison to the starting point.”

Shunshin works by the user vitalzing their body’s with chakra and the distance one can Shunshin  (and speed) is determined by the amount of chakra used. So Shunshin speed equals ones physical abilities + amount of chakra put into the Shunshin; Tobirama exceeds Minato in both of these. So how could his Shunshin be inferior. For that matter how in the f could Hashirama Shunshin be inferior when his chakra is eons above Minato?

And that’s the whole reason why you won’t convince me with this point; because this entire point relies on the idea that the Hokage all we’re racing each other with Shunshin to get to the battlefield first, but if that were true Hashirama, Tobirama, and Hiruzen shouldn’t all be arriving at basically the same time; they should all arrive at different times.

4. What it’s the same form as Naruto got; and Naruto with zero training immediately had his speed increased dramatically; we see this right after he awakens the form and blitz Kisame. This is why all of you guys arguing against me are coming to the wrong conclusion because every single person who disagrees with me also seems to believe their is no difference between KCM Minato and Base-Minato; which goes completely against how KCM was portrayed


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## kokodeshide (Feb 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Cool prove he didn’t warp to the battlefield


 This is where the loop starts, then you will change your argument several times.
If he warped, Hiruzen would not have called him fast. 
No, he wasn't calling Minatos usage of FTG fast, that doesnt make sense FTG is not speed.
He would not be calling him setting up FTG fast because he asks if he did set up his tags. 
Therefore, it was shunshin.



Turrin said:


> 2. You aren’t Kishimoto, so that’s irrelevant; and no at this point you won’t convince with this argument as I’ve seen all the points from you and other posters, and I don’t find them valid.


You don't find them valid, why? Here is the thing, if you think Tobirama did all that shit, but cant prove it, you then cannot use that as a debate point. So never bring up anything about tobirama ever again. I can use your logic against you. You cant prove that Tobirama wasn't already on the move then he outreacted Minato so you lose. It's stupid. It's not a proper argument.



Turrin said:


> 3. If you agree that Tobirama physical speed is superior then you should agree that his Shunshin is also superior and there is no way Minato could reach the battlefield first; because of how Shunshin works.


No, because some people are better at certain jutsu than others, it isnt uniform across the board.


Turrin said:


> Shunshin works by the user vitalzing their body’s with chakra and the distance one can Shunshin (and speed) is determined by the amount of chakra used. So Shunshin speed equals ones physical abilities + amount of chakra put into the Shunshin; Tobirama exceeds Minato in both of these. So how could his Shunshin be inferior. For that matter how in the f could Hashirama Shunshin be inferior when his chakra is eons above Minato?
> 
> And that’s the whole reason why you won’t convince me with this point; because this entire point relies on the idea that the Hokage all we’re racing each other with Shunshin to get to the battlefield first, but if that were true Hashirama, Tobirama, and Hiruzen shouldn’t all be arriving at basically the same time; they should all arrive at different times.


Except people did arrive at different times. Minato, then Hiruzen, Tobirama, Hashirama land close together. Then sasuke lands, then jugo right after.

You are not explaining jutsu properly either, quantity isnt everything. Naruto has more chakra than minato yet minato's skill allows him to make a bigger standard rasengan. Naruto has more chakra than anyone, yet his shunshin hasnt been faster than anyones. till boosted modes.
He has like 200 times as much chakra as kakashi yet is slower for the majority of the show.



Turrin said:


> 4. What it’s the same form as Naruto got; and Naruto with zero training immediately had his speed increased dramatically; we see this right after he awakens the form and blitz Kisame. This is why all of you guys arguing against me are coming to the wrong conclusion because every single person who disagrees with me also seems to believe their is no difference between KCM Minato and Base-Minato; which goes completely against how KCM was portrayed


We have 2 instances of KCM, Minato and Naruto. One shows sporadic bursts of speed. the other doesn't. So how is it that I'm going against KCM portrayal? Naruto hurt himself with that super speed blitz btw so he doesnt use that kind of speed anymore. that was an accident.


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## Hi no Ishi (Feb 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Yes any translation using the word “faster” or “quicker” are wrong. The correct translation is “usage” is better. So yeah on the Viz is correct.


Pretty much no one would take "you have better shunshin" to mean anything other than saying the other person is faster considering that's what shunshin is used for.
Especially when that person beat them to the battlefield.

Your being vague and misleading about the translations doesn't change that.


Turrin said:


> 2. Minato uses FTG to get to Naruto and Sakura; and then Tobirama says his Shunshin usage is better then his; later on he then refers to FTG as Shunshin; natural assumption is that he was talking about FTG the first time too. If you want to prove otherwise be my guest...but the burden of proof if on you as this is your point. I do not use this as a point one way or another; I use the actual clear combats feats


The burden to prove a negative is on the one making the claim, don't get it twisted.

You're the one saying he uses FTG to get there from Konoha and that Tobirama meant FTG.

Two things not shown or stated.



Turrin said:


> 3. I’ll explain it again;
> 
> Minato and the other Hokage were likely traveling together towards the battlefield as a single unit. On their way they discussed he strategy of using the barrier to contain the Juubi. They got close to the battlefield around the time Juubi was bringing out its TBB, which they sensed. Knowing the alliance was in danger Minato probably said he’d take care of it and threw a FTG Kunai towards the battlefield and teleported away.
> 
> ...


Wonderful head cannon. Truly.

Is it full of assumptions? Obviously.

And don't forget you quoted me, not the other way around. If you can't seem to convince anyone, should that make you think about your argument at some point?

It's not on everyone else to prove or disprove your assumptions its on you.


Turrin said:


> And as far as Orcamz Razor goes we saw Minato arrive next to Naruto and Sakura using FTG so the simplest explanation is that he used FTG to get their first; assuming he used Shunshin and then FTG requires more speculation...


Nope. Like I said, saying the guy who got there first and is known as the fastest and said to have better shunshin simply has better shunshin requires 0 assumptions.

Yours requires assumptions about them traveling as a unit most if the time, sensing the TBB etc and is full of holes like I pointed out earlier.

And you even 

0 assumptions is always going to be the least amount. And since you are assuming multiple things your argument is less sound.

Simple.




Turrin said:


> 4. Sure it does; for Tobirama to recreate Minatos feat he’d need to have many marked Kunai already; as Minato not only got to the battlefield but spread Kunai out and deflected the TBB; Tobirama has never been shown to have Pre-marked Kunai; so he would need to manually mark several Kunai before going to the battlefield; this would always take longer then Minato simply throwing an already marked Kunai.


No it would only require that he touch Minato once at the start.
Why is it unclear to you that he doesn't need to use his own kunai when we have seen him use Minato's before?

Why do you keep repeating this as if your not reading what I'm saying? Try multiquotes so you don't miss so much maybe?

Also why would Minato only bring himself along anyway?


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> This is where the loop starts, then you will change your argument several times.
> If he warped, Hiruzen would not have called him fast.
> No, he wasn't calling Minatos usage of FTG fast, that doesnt make sense FTG is not speed.
> He would not be calling him setting up FTG fast because he asks if he did set up his tags.
> ...


1. I’ve already addressed this FTG is considered speed; hence why Ei says Minato is faster then him despite Minato outspeding Ei with FTG

2. The difference is we actually see what Minato is doing on panel in the scenes I reference. You argument rest on what both Minato and the other Hokage did off panel;  and actually flat out denies what we saw Minato do on panel (use FTG to get to Sakura). Also another big difference is that my argument doesn’t rest on 1 event like your, I’ve actually given 3 examples of Tobirama showing superior speed.

3. We are directly told how you can be better at Shunshin in the Data-Book; it’s a matter of ones based physical speed + amount of chakra pumped in. There isn’t some magical component to this D-Rank Jutsu that we aren’t aware of that magically makes Minato better.

4. So if they are all racing according to you; your essentially saying that Old- Hiruzen is better at Shunshin then Tobirama and Hashirama (which makes zero sense according to the mechanics of Shunshin ); and is actually way better then Sasuke. And Sasuke despite being highlighted as having a high level Shunshin all the way back in the Uchiha Bros Arc, as of the War Arc is still roughly equal to Juugo. Which makes your claim of some magical skill component even more nonsensical as somehow Juugo has equal skill in Shunshin to Sasuke who was trained by a Sannin, is a Genius, and has Sharingan, while Juugo seemingly had little to no training as a  Shinobi and was chained up in prison for most of his life by Oro.


Oh and i guess Suigetsu and Karin shunshin are all equal to Oros since they arrived Next to Tsunade at the same time as him too?

Do you see how your interpretation makes no sense to me? 

5. Using the example of Naruto is not good as Naruto lacks skill in very basic areas as he was not able to learn basic Academy skills due to his chakra control issues; this is why even after getting KCM; he sprains his ankle trying to use Shunshin. So yes skill matters in the sense you need to be able to use the Jutsu but not more then that.

The other component is ones physical speed; as you need reactions able to be able to activate Shunshin in time; but we already agreed that’s Tobirama reactions are higher sooo; you can’t rwally argue that..

5. Dude he used that speed fine against Ei. We also saw that KCM drastically improved his physical abilities all around allowing him to mix it up with characters that are normally well above the speed of Base Naruto.

But ultimately here’s why you premise is so wrong; even KN0 which is a fraction of KCM power has been shown to increase Naruto speed greatly; so even if we low balled the shit out of KCM Minato and said he only got a KN0 increase (which is an absolute nonsense low ball); KCM Minato physicals capabilities would still be well above Base Minato. Yet let’s pretend KCM Minato is the same....


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Pretty much no one would take "you have better shunshin" to mean anything other than saying the other person is faster considering that's what shunshin is used for.
> Especially when that person beat them to the battlefield.
> 
> Your being vague and misleading about the translations doesn't change that.
> ...


1. Don’t care how other people take it; that’s not what was said.

2. I proved he used FTG to get to Sakura and Naruto; would you like me to post the scan? Your the one say he used Shunshin in between that off panel; and if you want to make that claim you prove it. And PS I never said he used FTG to get there from Konoha. I said he traveled normally with the Hokage from Konoha and then when he got close he threw FTG Kunai and teleported to them to make it to the battlefield and Naruto side quicker which is exactly what we see on panel as his means to beat the Hokage to Naruto and Sakura

3. Nah several people not agreeing with me doesn’t matter to me at all the forum is often wrong about stuff. And opinions change all the time. I only rethink my premise of a good point is made to me which I don’t think one has been

4. We saw Minato arrive their with FTG; I say he arrives their with FTG. = zero assumptions; you saying he used Shunshin first off panel is an assumption. Do you get how your wrong?

5. Yeah and spending time linking with Minato and then taking Kunai from Minato and using them is still going to take longer then Minato just tossing a single Kunai lol


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## kokodeshide (Feb 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. I’ve already addressed this FTG is considered speed; hence why Ei says Minato is faster then him despite Minato outspeding Ei with FTG


And I already address why this is wrong. Databook, Shino, Kakashi, all prove this wrong. A was not aware that it was a S/T jutsu.



Turrin said:


> 2. The difference is we actually see what Minato is doing on panel in the scenes I reference. You argument rest on what both Minato and the other Hokage did off panel; and actually flat out denies what we saw Minato do on panel (use FTG to get to Sakura). Also another big difference is that my argument doesn’t rest on 1 event like your, I’ve actually given 3 examples of Tobirama showing superior speed.


What are you talking about? You are saying they traveled together. That wasn't shown. You are saying he threw a kunai to the battlefield from not in the battlefield, that was not shown.
I am saying he arrived and set up his tags then warped to the one where sakura and naruto were. Only 1 thing is implied, that he used a faster shunshin, which Hiruzen and Tobirama confirm.


Turrin said:


> 3. We are directly told how you can be better at Shunshin in the Data-Book; it’s a matter of ones based physical speed + amount of chakra pumped in. There isn’t some magical component to this D-Rank Jutsu that we aren’t aware of that magically makes Minato better.


Yes, there is, SKILL. Why else can low chakra hiruzen use jutsu at a higher level?



Turrin said:


> 4. So if they are all racing according to you; your essentially saying that Old- Hiruzen is better at Shunshin then Tobirama and Hashirama (which makes zero sense according to the mechanics of Shunshin ); and is actually way better then Sasuke. And Sasuke despite being highlighted as having a high level Shunshin all the way back in the Uchiha Bros Arc, as of the War Arc is still roughly equal to Juugo. Which makes your claim of some magical skill component even more nonsensical as somehow Juugo has equal skill in Shunshin to Sasuke who was trained by a Sannin, is a Genius, and has Sharingan, while Juugo seemingly had little to no training as a Shinobi and was chained up in prison for most of his life by Oro.


 Why does it make no sense? Hiruzen demonstrated better speed than both of them. The other thing you are forgetting is that the Edo tensei have unlimited chakra. They can spam Shunshin with no problem. Sasuke infact doesn't even seem to use shunshin to arrive now that i think about it.



Turrin said:


> Oh and i guess Suigetsu and Karin shunshin are all equal to Oros since they arrived Next to Tsunade at the same time as him too?


They didnt use shunshin.



Turrin said:


> Do you see how your interpretation makes no sense to me?


no, i don't.



Turrin said:


> 5. Dude he used that speed fine against Ei. We also saw that KCM drastically improved his physical abilities all around allowing him to mix it up with characters that are normally well above the speed of Base Naruto.
> 
> But ultimately here’s why you premise is so wrong; even KN0 which is a fraction of KCM power has been shown to increase Naruto speed greatly; so even if we low balled the shit out of KCM Minato and said he only got a KN0 increase (which is an absolute nonsense low ball); KCM Minato physicals capabilities would still be well above Base Minato. Yet let’s pretend KCM Minato is the same....


He didn't use that speed against A. He may have used it one time to outspeed him, that's it. 
And comparing the KCM to the KN forms is just bad. They have a WHOLE different method of boosting power. KN6 is a casual mountain buster. KCM is nowhere near that power. KCM is also comparable to Sage mode. The KN forms, specifically 6+ make sage mode and KCM look like trash.


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## Bookworm (Feb 20, 2019)

Hussain said:


>


 Bwahahaha! What the hell is this thing?


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## Trojan (Feb 21, 2019)

Bookworm said:


> Bwahahaha! What the hell is this thing?


it's inspired by Konan's battle with Obito where that rainbow showed up. It's as the ultimate "optimistic" 

I don't know why they bother with Turrin until now after trying to appeal to him with statements, logic, reasons., proofs...etc

it's fairly obvious that he is a mere troll by this point


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## X III (Feb 21, 2019)

Minato.. He's literally a new and improved Tobirama. Flat out STATED better in speed (their shticks...), has Boss Summons, top tier sealing Jutsu, and apparently Sage Mode. Obviously BM as well in ET.

Literally what does Tobirama have above him? His fodder level ET which Minato nopes with a contract seal? His useless Suiton? Please... Minato with around mid diff.


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## Kagutsutchi (Feb 21, 2019)

So why are you guys trying to drive yourselves mad by reasoning with turrin? Minato stomps. End of battle.


Hussain said:


> the guy legitimately think BPS Rinnegan Sasuke is barely EMS Asspulldara's level, and if he were to be generous then sasuke might be
> a little bit ahead.
> 
> same with RM Naruto & Hashirama


Well according to some experts, to escape hashirama's deity gates, The Juubi needs *all* its power. So I see no problem with this reasoning


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## strongestrinneganuser (Feb 21, 2019)

tobirama summons edo hashirama or edo madara and beats minato


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## Turrin (Feb 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> And I already address why this is wrong. Databook, Shino, Kakashi, all prove this wrong. A was not aware that it was a S/T jutsu.
> 
> 
> What are you talking about? You are saying they traveled together. That wasn't shown. You are saying he threw a kunai to the battlefield from not in the battlefield, that was not shown.
> ...


1. Years later Ei, after clashing with Minato multiple times was still unaware it was an ST Jutsu, come on bruv. And none of those examples you gave actually say FTG is not counted as speed

2. No your asking me specific questions about what happened off panel and I’m answering you with possibilities. All my premise relies on is that he used FTG to get to Sakura & Naruto before the Hokage, which we see on panel. Yours relies on the idea that all the Hokage were racing each other with Shunshin off panel and Minato beat them both assumptions

3. What are you talking about low-chakra Hiruzen use Jutsu at a high level? Hiruzen isn’t low chakra he’s low comparatively to other Hokage which doesn’t say much.

4. Because of the stated mechanics of Shunshin; the amount of chakra pumped into Shunshin determines how far you can go in a single Shunshin; so Hashirama having the most chakra should have beaten everyone else there if they were racing with Shunshin as you suggest.

5. Maybe the fact that Edos don’t tire have the Hokages an edge, but please explain how Juugo is equivalent to Sasuke; and Karin/Suigetsu are equivalen to Oro. 

6. So they all races to the battlefield except Sasuke and Juugo for no reason didn’t. Yes your premise surely requires no assumptions 

7. He was constantly using the higher speed against Ei; even before using Shunshin which is how he was keeping up with Ei at all; and forced Ei to use his own max speed. So unless you believe Base Naruto can keep up with R1 Ei and Ei would need his max speed just to overcome him; yes his speed was dramatically increased KCM

8. I’m comparing it to KN0 lol; literally Naruto just getting a tiny bit of Kyuubi chakra; and your saying KCM doesn’t even boost him that much in physical abilities. Please dude just stop... and to think you were complaining to me about concedeing points lol


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## Grinningfox (Feb 21, 2019)

strongestrinneganuser said:


> tobirama summons edo hashirama or edo madara and beats minato



Neither would be anywhere near their  level in the War Arc


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## strongestrinneganuser (Feb 21, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Neither would be anywhere near their  level in the War Arc



what do you mean? havent you seen how overpowered edo madara was? hashirama was also near that level. i dont think minato stands a chance against those two.


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## Grinningfox (Feb 21, 2019)

strongestrinneganuser said:


> what do you mean? havent you seen how overpowered edo madara was? hashirama was also near that level. i dont think minato stands a chance against those two.



Tobirama’s Edo <Oro’s Edo < Kabuto’s Edo


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## kokodeshide (Feb 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Years later Ei, after clashing with Minato multiple times was still unaware it was an ST Jutsu, come on bruv. And none of those examples you gave actually say FTG is not counted as speed


 Yeah, he sure as shit was. Who the fuck goes around explaining jutsu. Jiraiya is from Konoha and still didn't know what Amaterasu was despite investigating akatsuki.

And yes, my example DO say it.

Shino says Obito isn't using Shunshin to escape his bug prison thing. Because Shunshin is just high speed movement. To which Kakashi says, he must be using a SPACE TIME JUTSU, then compares it to FTG. 
The databook says FTG is mistaken for Substitution jutsu, which uses shunshin as a base. Shunshin being speed.
More proof is the Raikage actually blitzing Madara, yet tobirama who you like to say is faster than Minato couldn't blitz Madara.

So pick one. If the speed tier goes Madara<Raikage<Minato<Tobirama why can't Tobirama just Blitz the absolute fuck out of Madara?



Turrin said:


> 2. No your asking me specific questions about what happened off panel and I’m answering you with possibilities. All my premise relies on is that he used FTG to get to Sakura & Naruto before the Hokage, which we see on panel. Yours relies on the idea that all the Hokage were racing each other with Shunshin off panel and Minato beat them both assumptions


And him using to FTG to warp to the tag he just threw is normal Minato shit. Using throwing kunai then using FTG to travel long distances is never shown. So you are relying on stuff that has never been shown.



Turrin said:


> 3. What are you talking about low-chakra Hiruzen use Jutsu at a high level? Hiruzen isn’t low chakra he’s low comparatively to other Hokage which doesn’t say much.


Hiruzen has such little chakra he couldnt even make 2 clones without the Anbu tripping about how he is basically throwing his life away. there are talented KIDS who can make more clones.
And all jutsu Hiruzen uses are low chakra, since he has low chakra.



Turrin said:


> 4. Because of the stated mechanics of Shunshin; the amount of chakra pumped into Shunshin determines how far you can go in a single Shunshin; so Hashirama having the most chakra should have beaten everyone else there if they were racing with Shunshin as you suggest.


That is not how chakra works. at all. And it has never worked that way.



Turrin said:


> 5. Maybe the fact that Edos don’t tire have the Hokages an edge, but please explain how Juugo is equivalent to Sasuke; and Karin/Suigetsu are equivalen to Oro.


 They were not using shunshin. thats how, the kage were.



Turrin said:


> 6. So they all races to the battlefield except Sasuke and Juugo for no reason didn’t. Yes your premise surely requires no assumptions


Conserving chakra? its the reason Gaara carries the other kage to the battlefield instead of them using shunshin.



Turrin said:


> 7. He was constantly using the higher speed against Ei; even before using Shunshin which is how he was keeping up with Ei at all; and forced Ei to use his own max speed. So unless you believe Base Naruto can keep up with R1 Ei and Ei would need his max speed just to overcome him; yes his speed was dramatically increased KCM


What? There isn't any evidence of what you just said.



Turrin said:


> 8. I’m comparing it to KN0 lol; literally Naruto just getting a tiny bit of Kyuubi chakra; and your saying KCM doesn’t even boost him that much in physical abilities. Please dude just stop... and to think you were complaining to me about concedeing points lol


I never said that. and bro, telling me to stop when you are talking about the the absolute craziest fanfic of the century. get real.

My point is, the Boost of KCM is not as good as KN6. how good is it? You tell me. Tell me what the multiplier is please.



Grinningfox said:


> Tobirama’s Edo <Oro’s Edo < Kabuto’s Edo <*Zetsu body Oro's Edo.*


Fixed it for you. He saw everything Kabuto did, he would have knowledge on how to better use and better control due to Hashirama cells.


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## Trojan (Feb 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Fixed it for you. He saw everything Kabuto did, he would have knowledge on how to better use and better control due to Hashirama cells.


nah, Kabuto was still better than Oro


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## Grinningfox (Feb 21, 2019)

@kokodeshide Oh I forgot Zetsu Oro!!

Thnx

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Feb 21, 2019)

Welp, for those who deluded themselves into believing they can convince Turrin. here is the thread


Don't waste your time. 

Turrin is officially in a full-retard mode.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 21, 2019)

Hussain said:


> nah, Kabuto was still better than Oro


I doubt it.
1. The power jump Madara got from edo to alive was crazy, And Hashirama was supposed to be near full power.
2. Orochimaru literally saw everything he did. And made near perfect Edo. kabuto had kakuzu, the guy who raped kakashi get trolled by Chunin.


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## Trojan (Feb 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> I doubt it.
> 1. The power jump Madara got from edo to alive was crazy, And Hashirama was supposed to be near full power.
> 2. Orochimaru literally saw everything he did. And made near perfect Edo. kabuto had kakuzu, the guy who raped kakashi get trolled by Chunin.



you can't apply logic to Asspulldara. Kishi was literally pulling things out of his ass just to hype him up and keep him around.

other than that, all Kabuto's ET were brought back with full power. Where Oro's ET Hokage were brought back less than their full power. However small it may be... 



> And made near perfect Edo


you said it, near perfect. Not perfect.



> he guy who raped kakashi get trolled by Chunin


this shows the progress they made since then. Not that Kakuzu got weaker.


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## Turrin (Feb 21, 2019)

@kokodeshide 

1. None of those say FTG isn’t considered speed just not consider phyiscal movement which yeah obviously...

2. Ei never blitz’d Madara

3. We’ve seen him travel across Konoha with FTG..... 

4.  Hiruzen made 4 clones and used massive elemental jutsu against Buddha and wasn’t out of chakra. So no his chakra amount isn’t small

5. Then the Hokage should have beaten them there by a huge amount lol; if they were using footsore the entire time and Hokage were using Shunshin

6. So does KCM offer a greater boost then KN0. Yes or no? Don’t even know where you got KN6 from as I was never talking about that


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## kokodeshide (Feb 21, 2019)

Hussain said:


> you can't apply logic to Asspulldara. Kishi was literally pulling things out of his ass just to hype him up and keep him around.


Lol, this is weak but ok.



Hussain said:


> other than that, all Kabuto's ET were brought back with full power. Where Oro's ET Hokage were brought back less than their full power. However small it may be...


No they weren't.
Where does it say that? All evidence points to the contrary.




Hussain said:


> you said it, near perfect. Not perfect.


yup, but more perfect than Kabuto



Hussain said:


> this shows the progress they made since then. Not that Kakuzu got weaker.


Thats some INSANE progress. From fodder to trolling the bijuu hunting, kakashi stomping, bounty hunting, hashirama fighting, send to konoha with only hidan as back up to fight the 9 tails kakuzu.


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## Trojan (Feb 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Lol, this is weak but ok.


Kabuto: I brought you back stronger than you were in your golden age
Hashirama: Asspulldara is regaining his past power? 

----
Naruto: Obito's out path (Rinnegan is stronger than Nagato) when he was hyping Obito up
Obito: 1 eye cannot bring the full power of the Dojutsu, when 2 of them are together they are stronger (when they wanted to hype Asspulldara)

even tho Nagato had 2 eyes.


and the list goes on, don't really feel like writing everything about Asspulldara's contradictions. :V



kokodeshide said:


> No they weren't.
> Where does it say that? All evidence points to the contrary


For example, Onoki saying Mu's jinton is as strong as ever. 

and no ET (Kabuto's) was noted to be weaker at all. ... 
(unless because of outside factors like not having their tools like puppets)



kokodeshide said:


> yup, but more perfect than Kabuto


Nope. What we have is Kabuto's ET > Oro's ET. 
nowhere was this implied or stated directly that it has been changed...



kokodeshide said:


> Thats some INSANE progress. From fodder to trolling the bijuu hunting, kakashi stomping, bounty hunting, hashirama fighting, send to konoha with only hidan as back up to fight the 9 tails kakuzu.


it's typical shonen things to do if you ask me.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. None of those say FTG isn’t considered speed just not consider phyiscal movement which yeah obviously...


Movement is speed, turrin, please. This is common sense. With the databook backing up that FTG is confused for Substitution that seals it.


Turrin said:


> 2. Ei never blitz’d Madara


ok ok, NEARLY blitz'd. Better. Point remains the same, A moved so fast Madara could barely react.


Turrin said:


> 3. We’ve seen him travel across Konoha with FTG.....


 With pre placed tags, is that this situation?



Turrin said:


> 4. Hiruzen made 4 clones and used massive elemental jutsu against Buddha and wasn’t out of chakra. So no his chakra amount isn’t small


Yes it is small. It is literally STATED to be small.



Turrin said:


> 5. Then the Hokage should have beaten them there by a huge amount lol; if they were using footsore the entire time and Hokage were using Shunshin


 That's assuming they didn't use a mixture of both. and they did arrive quite a while after. 



Turrin said:


> 6. So does KCM offer a greater boost then KN0. Yes or no? Don’t even know where you got KN6 from as I was never talking about that


Yes, but how much faster? Not faster than KN6. KN3 literally blitzed an admittedly unprepared yet aware Orochimaru. I don't think Orochimaru is getting blitzed by KCM when Kimimaro wasn't


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## Turrin (Feb 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Movement is speed, turrin, please. This is common sense. With the databook backing up that FTG is confused for Substitution that seals it.
> 
> ok ok, NEARLY blitz'd. Better. Point remains the same, A moved so fast Madara could barely react.
> With pre placed tags, is that this situation?
> ...



1. No speed is not limited to physical movement 

2. So how does Ei nearly blitzing Madara matter?

3. Okay then let’s go off Gaiden where Minato tells fodder to throw FTG Kunai clear cross to the other side of the battlefield for him to teleport to.

4. Small relative to what it used to be in his Prime but not relative to the average Ninja. But the more you argue it’s small the more reason why Hashirama should have smoked him in Shunshin; based on Shunshin mechanics....

5. They still should have beaten them  by a huge margin

6. Faster then KN0 which already offered a large boost. So again Tobirama can keep pace with or outperform KCM Minato but isn’t faster then Base....


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## kokodeshide (Feb 21, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Kabuto: I brought you back stronger than you were in your golden age
> Hashirama: Asspulldara is regaining his past power?


This doesn't help you. Because Golden age Madara did not have Rinnegan or Hashiboob

And the second line is referring to how Madara is getting more power...because he is returning to life. That literally disproves your point. They don't contradict each other. Rinnegan isn't power, it is an ability. But the power of Madara is less than before. Hence why madara with rinnegan is stronger than the Edo version of himself.


Hussain said:


> Naruto: Obito's out path (Rinnegan is stronger than Nagato) when he was hyping Obito up
> Obito: 1 eye cannot bring the full power of the Dojutsu, when 2 of them are together they are stronger (when they wanted to hype Asspulldara)
> 
> even tho Nagato had 2 eyes.
> ...


 Outer path was stronger probably because that's the only thing Madara taught obito and he wasnt using the other paths. Either way, Madara wasn't as good at Preta even though they were his eyes. He also couldn't simultaneously use the paths like Nagato did.
Different strengths don't mean more strength.


Hussain said:


> For example, Onoki saying Mu's jinton is as strong as ever.
> 
> and no ET (Kabuto's) was noted to be weaker at all. ...
> (unless because of outside factors like not having their tools like puppets)


Thats a good point, but to counter it slightly it's just a jutsu he used. If he is 85% as strong its not like Oonoki will really know much of a difference. Muu has been dead for 40+ years. 

Also, It's just a common trope to say "Sasuga" to say like, as expected from you.



Hussain said:


> Nope. What we have is Kabuto's ET > Oro's ET.
> nowhere was this implied or stated directly that it has been changed...


It is implied to have changed when orochimaru uses a near perfect Edo. Showing he has improved, plus his control has improved due to hashicells that kabuto doesn't have.


Hussain said:


> it's typical shonen things to do if you ask me.


This is a bit above typical shounen. That also downgrades the whole series. Cause if that was prime Kakuzu and he was taken down instantly by chuunin, it puts them above Yuugito and Kakashi. I really don't think that is true. The only time Edo are mentioned to be near full power is when Oro summons them.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. No speed is not limited to physical movement


 Yes...yes it is. In reality, and the manga. 
You have no way to disprove this because it is fact. Shino and kakashi confirm S/T jutsu is not speed.
Databook saying FTG is confused for speed, clarifies A's misunderstanding.
Rin falsely stating FTG is speed, thinking it was Shunshin.



Turrin said:


> 2. So how does Ei nearly blitzing Madara matter?


 Because, that means Tobirama is SIGNIFICANTLY faster than Madara.



Turrin said:


> 3. Okay then let’s go off Gaiden where Minato tells fodder to throw FTG Kunai clear cross to the other side of the battlefield for him to teleport to.


Ok, that is in a single battle space. only 50 ninja around. This is a MASSIVE area. Also, minato arrived there with Shunshin, why keep his dying comrades waiting if he could just long travel with FTG. 



Turrin said:


> 4. Small relative to what it used to be in his Prime but not relative to the average Ninja. But the more you argue it’s small the more reason why Hashirama should have smoked him in Shunshin; based on Shunshin mechanics....


That isn't how Shunshin or any jutsu works. Your skill in the jutsu ALSO contributes to it's effectiveness and power. Otherwise, 2 ninja of equal speed and power would have exactly equal shunshin speed. Yet Hashirama, chakra beast. Tobirama, likely a chakra tank, but nothing like Hashirama. and hiruzen, a chakra thimble, all have nearly the same Shunshin speed. You would have to explain why Hiruzen with FAR less chakra than Tobirama is able to outspeed him. Does that mean his physical speed is DRASTICALLY higher? Going by your explanation, yes.



Turrin said:


> 5. They still should have beaten them by a huge margin


 and they did. At high speed, differences by many seconds indicate vastly different levels of speed. 



Turrin said:


> 6. Faster then KN0 which already offered a large boost. So again Tobirama can keep pace with or outperform KCM Minato but isn’t faster then Base....


You are comparing Shunshin to physical speed. Yes, Tobiramas physical speed is faster than minatos, but his shunshin speed is slower than minatos shunshin. Why are you comparing Tobirama Shunshin to Minatos non shunshin speed?


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## Turrin (Feb 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Yes...yes it is. In reality, and the manga.
> You have no way to disprove this because it is fact. Shino and kakashi confirm S/T jutsu is not speed.
> Databook saying FTG is confused for speed, clarifies A's misunderstanding.
> Rin falsely stating FTG is speed, thinking it was Shunshin.
> ...


1.  Ei knew how FTG works, see the first pages of chapter 543

So saying Ei doesn’t know how it works to justify FTG not being considered speed if false.

2. Okay and what’s the problem with that?

3. This was a big battlefield:

g

4. The Databook literally says that the distance traveled in on Shunshin is determined by the amount of chakra put into it and it’s a D-Rank Jutsu required next to no skill to use (Genin stuff). These are the facts.

5. It should be way more the that

6. Because Shunshin speed is physical speed enhanced with chakra; so if Tobirama has higher physical speed and chakra it’s nonsense that his Shunshin is slower then Minatos


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## kokodeshide (Feb 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Ei knew how FTG works, see the first pages of chapter 543
> 
> So saying Ei doesn’t know how it works to justify FTG not being considered speed if false.


 No he didn't, the databook supports this and Shino and Kakashi confirm this. Him saying he knew minato went to the tags doesn't mean shit. Because his understanding is that it is speed, and according to the manga, S/T is not speed.


Turrin said:


> 2. Okay and what’s the problem with that?


 That means in a general fight Tobirama smashes Madara and just about everyone else in naruto barring a select few characters.



Turrin said:


> 3. This was a big battlefield:
> 
> g


50 ninja were on that battlefield. 40k ninja were on the final battlefied, pluss the entire MASSIVE juubi and hachibi. This is drastically different.


Turrin said:


> 4. The Databook literally says that the distance traveled in on Shunshin is determined by the amount of chakra put into it and it’s a D-Rank Jutsu required next to no skill to use (Genin stuff). These are the facts.


Yes and that applies to one person. Nowhere in the entire manga does it ever support the fact that more chakra means faster shunshin. The only thing it does say is that a greater chakra flow could do that. but not base chakra. and Manga FEATS trump at the end of the day anyway. 


Turrin said:


> 5. It should be way more the that


Based on what, show me some data to support that claim.


Turrin said:


> 6. Because Shunshin speed is physical speed enhanced with chakra; so if Tobirama has higher physical speed and chakra it’s nonsense that his Shunshin is slower then Minatos


That would be true if Tobirama had a higher chakra output than minato. It would also be true if he was more skilled. You think shisui had crazy physical stats and super high chakra stores. he is literally the only ninja famous for shunshin. Even Bee knows of him for it. Or is it that he is just better at the jutsu.


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## Turrin (Feb 21, 2019)

@kokodeshide

Ei directly says that Minato teleports to his markers (so he knows it’s not physical motion) and the Data-book directly says amount of chakra determines how far someone can Shunshin. If your going to deny these facts I don’t see any reason to continue; as your just going to keep denying any facts that I bring forward so yeah...

Ether admit your wrong on these points or I won’t continue...


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 21, 2019)

@kokodeshide 
The Databook explicitly states that Minato's moniker was due to FTG, so regardless of whether or not people knew it was Space-Time Ninjutsu, the entire world still viewed it as speed or else Minato wouldn't have been the fastest man at the time. Even Raikage boasts about Minato's speed being insurmountable despite the number of times they've battled in which flashbacks of their encounters explicitly illustrate why that is i.e constantly outspeeding Raikage due to Hiraishin. 

 And of course, Raikage knows it's teleportation and that there is a special jutsu at play due to the seals on the kunai.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Ei directly says that Minato teleports to his markers (so he knows it’s not physical motion)


No he doesn't know its not physical motion. the word teleport also applies to shunshin. and his implication of it being speed breaks the rules of the canon.



Turrin said:


> and the Data-book directly says amount of chakra determines how far someone can Shunshin


Not how fast. You are ignoring the fact that skill plays a part in all jutsu.



Turrin said:


> If your going to deny these facts I don’t see any reason to continue; as your just going to keep denying any facts that I bring forward so yeah...
> 
> Ether admit your wrong on these points or I won’t continue...


Fuck off with this nonsense, Turrin, you reject every single point anyone brings to you, I have the fuckin respect to actually address your points and not insult you like everyone else and you pull this shit out? After not addressing half the shit I said and spiraling through the same points I already addressed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Feb 22, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> No he doesn't know its not physical motion. the word teleport also applies to shunshin. and his implication of it being speed breaks the rules of the canon.
> 
> Not how fast. You are ignoring the fact that skill plays a part in all jutsu.
> 
> Fuck off with this nonsense, Turrin, you reject every single point anyone brings to you, I have the fuckin respect to actually address your points and not insult you like everyone else and you pull this shit out? After not addressing half the shit I said and spiraling through the same points I already addressed.


The difference is that other people’s poitns are I think x,y,z happened and I don’t agree with their reasoning. In this case I bring you point blank statements from the Data-Book and Ei; and you deny them. No point to continuing as we are never going to see eye to eye and I’m not going to convince you and neither are you going to convince me. I believe the Data-Book isnt lying about how Shunshin works so I’m never going to agree with your scenario of the Hokages racing each other to get to the battlefield. I believe Ei saying Minato teleports between the Jutsu formula on tags means he knows more then just physical speed is involved in FTG; yet still considers Minato faster. So why continue?

PS: I never said anything offensive to you or was rude in anyway...


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## Santoryu (Feb 22, 2019)

kunai slash gg


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## kokodeshide (Feb 22, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> The Databook explicitly states that Minato's moniker was due to FTG, so regardless of whether or not people knew it was Space-Time Ninjutsu, the entire world still viewed it as speed or else Minato wouldn't have been the fastest man at the time.


And through the entire manga, the majority of the ninja world doesn't even know what he is doing. Even Konoha ninja weren't aware of his jutsu's mechanics. Not like every ninja spills his jutsus secrets everywhere.
Basically, let me boil it down to this:
In order for you to say FTG is speed you have to say that
1. Rin's confusion of FTG being fast Shunshin means nothing and is inconsistent with the DB, Shino, Kakashi
2. Obito and A4s statements are inconsistent with the entire manga saying S/T jutsu is not speed. 
3. Konoha ninja, including members of his own team are unaware of the mechanics of his jutsu, Yet A4 after seeing it one time knows its a S/T jutsu 
4. The Databook statement of people thing FTG is Substitution jutsu is invalid.

Here is my interpretation.
1. FTG isn't speed.

THATS IT. 
Why does everyone have such a big deal with this.


UchihaX28 said:


> Even Raikage boasts about Minato's speed being insurmountable despite the number of times they've battled in which flashbacks of their encounters explicitly illustrate why that is i.e constantly outspeeding Raikage due to Hiraishin.


Here is the deal here. Regardless, FTG being speed or not doesn't matter. Because in terms of Shunshin, A>>>Minato
The reason this DOES matter is because FTG>times infinity>any speed that means Minato can avoid A. BUT, people then turn around and put that as meaning Minato can blitz anyone A4 can, which is just untrue. He has never shown movement speed like that ever.



UchihaX28 said:


> And of course, and that there is a special jutsu at play due to the seals on the kunai.


Yes, and the DATABOOK explains that it is confused for Substitution jutsu, which is a shunshin variant, hence why A4 calls it shunshin.



Turrin said:


> The difference is that other people’s poitns are I think x,y,z happened and I don’t agree with their reasoning. In this case I bring you point blank statements from the Data-Book and Ei; and you deny them.


I didn't deny anything, you are taking certain DB statements and then disregarding others. Why are you saying I am denying DB statements but not saying you yourself are? You are not being logical here, or fair.


Turrin said:


> No point to continuing as we are never going to see eye to eye and I’m not going to convince you and neither are you going to convince me. I believe the Data-Book isnt lying about how Shunshin works so I’m never going to agree with your scenario of the Hokages racing each other to get to the battlefield. I believe Ei saying Minato teleports between the Jutsu formula on tags means he knows more then just physical speed is involved in FTG; yet still considers Minato faster. So why continue?
> 
> PS: I never said anything offensive to you or was rude in anyway...



Bro, the issue with your Shunshin issue is you are disregarding the ENTIRE MANGA. You are saying the DB statement trumps every single instance of Shunshin that there has ever been. EVER. You aren't addressing my counterpoints AT ALL. Explain why Shisui was so good at shunshin despite being nothing godly in the physical department? Explain that please.
You are also assuming every ninja puts the exact same amount of chakra into a jutsu. You are completely disregarding skill which we see plays a part in jutsu. You are completely rejecting the fact that Tobirama and Hashirama are likely physically more capable than Minato and old Hiruzen yet are slower. You are literally only rejecting this because it proves you ABSOLUTELY wrong.

FTG is a good example, Minato and Tobirama. One can do more with it than the other can because of skill. Why are you rejecting that? Hiruzen can do high level jutsu without having high levels of chakra. Why are you rejecting that? Hiruzen has way lower levels of Chakra than Tobirama and is at least similar in power yet totally outclassed him in speed. And also arrived an instant before him, or even equal. Hiruzen is an old ass man and is still able to fight against A4 in wars despite being slower and having dramatically less chakra? You are completely ignoring skill in jutsu. Why?

As for A, You want to reject every single statement in the DB and Manga disproving you and you want to say I'm denying shit??? Rin, Konoha Ninja, Obito alllllll misrepresent FTG. yet A4 knows all about it? How? because he saw it one time he can understand that it is a S/T jutsu? Why couldn't everyone else? The DB outright says people confuse it for Substitution and you ignore that too? Regardless of whether or not anyone else agrees with what I'm saying or not, anyone can see you are avoiding my points and trying to exit the argument calling me the manga denier to save face. ridiculous.


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## Turrin (Feb 22, 2019)

@kokodeshide 
Shunshin distance/speed being dependent on amount of chakra is well documented in the manga; it’s why thee best Shunshin users are characters like Ei who has a Bijuu chakra supply; and Naruto gets a godly Shunshin after gaining the nintails chakra; or Obito Shunshin becoming God level after absorbing the Juubi.

I’m trying not to be rude, so I let you off the hook. But the reason I’m not addressing your points against this is because they aren’t well real points....

1. You bring up Shisui not having large chakra, but where are you even getting that from. We have no clue what Shishui chakra capacity was. So now apparently I have to address you fanfiction that’s Shisui had low chakra capacity....why?

2. Yes skill matters, but Shunshin isn’t a technique that requires a high degree of skill to learn; it’s a D-Rank Genin class skill so aside from Naruto (who for story reasons lacks skill in some key Ninja areas) there isn’t a single Ninja at the level of we’re talking about (all Hokage) are going to be able to use the technique  perfectly. And we are explained how the techniques works it’s vitalzing the body with chakra where the amount put in determination the power of the tech. The idea that Hokage level Ninja cant vitalize their body with chakra with peak skill when this was something Wave Arc Naruto and Sasuke we’re learning is not a point worth addressing. 

3. We know Ei understood it because he point blank explains how it works. Does Shunshin work by teleporting between marks; does normal physical speed; no it doesnt. So why would Ei ever believe that shit was normal speed; Ei may not be Kakashi tier but he isn’t a complete moron ether. 

FTG doesn’t need count as physical speed, but it counts towards how fast a character is; it’s that simple

——

So realistically I just see all of this as non points


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## kokodeshide (Feb 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Shunshin distance/speed being dependent on amount of chakra is well documented in the manga; it’s why thee best Shunshin users are characters like Ei who has a Bijuu chakra supply; and Naruto gets a godly Shunshin after gaining the nintails chakra; or Obito Shunshin becoming God level after absorbing the Juubi.


Bullshit. Again, that fails to explain Hiruzen. It also fails to explain why Naruto would be slower than Sasuke for the whole series. Bee in base contended with raikage despite having less chakra in his base form.  
Chakra output is was gives you immense speed, Not quantity. Hence why opening gates or using a bijuu cloak increases speed. Not like Kisame after absorbing alot of chakra is suddenly 2x as fast. You literally have no evidence to support this and there is evidence directly contradicting it. 




Turrin said:


> I’m trying not to be rude, so I let you off the hook. But the reason I’m not addressing your points against this is because they aren’t well real points....


Says the guy saying "could have" "might have" "its possible that"



Turrin said:


> 1. You bring up Shisui not having large chakra, but where are you even getting that from. We have no clue what Shishui chakra capacity was. So now apparently I have to address you fanfiction that’s Shisui had low chakra capacity....why?


My fanfic? you want to go over any of your points here and tell me they are not fanfics? 



Turrin said:


> 2. Yes skill matters, but Shunshin isn’t a technique that requires a high degree of skill to learn; it’s a D-Rank Genin class skill so aside from Naruto (who for story reasons lacks skill in some key Ninja areas) there isn’t a single Ninja at the level of we’re talking about (all Hokage) are going to be able to use the technique perfectly. And we are explained how the techniques works it’s vitalzing the body with chakra where the amount put in determination the power of the tech. The idea that Hokage level Ninja cant vitalize their body with chakra with peak skill when this was something Wave Arc Naruto and Sasuke we’re learning is not a point worth addressing.


What the fuck is Peak Skill? Is there some sort of max speed in Naruto I am not aware of? Is there a cap on shunshin speed? You can never get better at shunshin once you hit a certain point in skill? Your Shunshin speed is cut in half when you are at half chakra? No? Than your point is utter bullshit. This is the most annoying kind of argument one can encounter. Someone saying your shit isn't worth addressing because *insert bullshit comment that doesnt disprove anything and is easily proven wrong*
You are absolutely wrong, so what is your point? Less that not worth addressing. What does that mean? Punishable. 3 lashings for you Turrin, you have been a bad boy.



Turrin said:


> 3. We know Ei understood it because he point blank explains how it works. Does Shunshin work by teleporting between marks; does normal physical speed; no it doesnt. So why would Ei ever believe that shit was normal speed; Ei may not be Kakashi tier but he isn’t a complete moron ether.


Substitution works like that. And A uses fuckin lightning to make his Shunshin faster, why would he not assume Minato is doing something similar.



Turrin said:


> FTG doesn’t need count as physical speed, but it counts towards how fast a character is; it’s that simple


Yet the manga says otherwise. 


Turrin said:


> So realistically I just see all of this as non points


You didn't even address them, you picked a few that you though you were right on, failed. You keep repeating the same shit without addressing my points, Turrin.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 22, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> And through the entire manga, the majority of the ninja world doesn't even know what he is doing. *Even Konoha ninja weren't aware of his jutsu's mechanics. Not like every ninja spills his jutsus secrets everywhere.*
> Basically, let me boil it down to this:
> In order for you to say FTG is speed you have to say that
> 1. Rin's confusion of FTG being fast Shunshin means nothing and is inconsistent with the DB, Shino, Kakashi
> ...



 Except one Konoha shinobi did in which after Minato launches the kunai, he refers to Minato's alias to emphasize how quickly the battle will end. The fact that Minato's movements through Hiraishin appear as a flash reinforces the idea behind him being the fastest man alive, it doesn't discredit it. Kakashi, Bee, and Raikage both understood the mechanics behinds Minato's Hiraishin and yet they literally compared Naruto to Minato when Naruto moved in a blink of an eye. Madara explicitly commends Tobirama for being the fastest man alive after trying to battle Tobirama who was using Hiraishin and only admits this is no longer the case because he is an Edo Tensei while Madara is nurturing newer abilities.

There are literally comparisons being made here which clearly factor in Hiraishin that it's hard to discredit that it is referred to as a speed. The "Yellow Flash" is not just for show. Just like the Sannin title and Kakashi's alias "Kakashi of the Sharingan", he also had to live up to his legacy which he did in front of the Konoha ninja who clearly watched him flick kunai across the battlefield and referred to Minato's moniker when he was about to defeat the mob in a blink of an eye.

 In the Viz translation, . Raikage knows Minato's jutsu and still claims that Minato outran his punch. In other translations, they mention that he dodged his punch.

 But yes, Raikage >> Minato in Shunshin and reaction speed.

Edit: Link for Viz Translation won't work, so I will post it as an image:

*Spoiler*: __ 



  [/spoiler


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## Turrin (Feb 22, 2019)

@kokodeshide

Your not even replying with points anymore your just basically grumbling at this point, “psh my fanfic” for example

Meh... you know your wrong and just can’t admit, to which I say peace out man I’m done


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## kokodeshide (Feb 22, 2019)

@Hussain 
@Grinningfox 
Should have listened to you guys...



Turrin said:


> Your not even replying with points anymore your just basically grumbling at this point, “psh my fanfic” for example
> 
> Meh... you know your wrong and just can’t admit, to which I say peace out man I’m done



What a coward. You have been thrashed. Completely and absolutely. You failed to address 95 percent of my points. You and everyone else knows it. Feel free to talk in circles elsewhere though. I'm sure you will go far.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Feb 23, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> @Hussain
> @Grinningfox
> Should have listened to you guys...
> 
> ...


Dude Calm down...

Funny though and I’ll see you later when you can admit your wrong. 

Edit: for the record though I don’t think your a bad poster, I’ve seen other things from you that I like. Just think you have this idea that you were going to prove me wrong when others failed and then in turn we’re proved wrong and can’t take the L. It’s okay tho I get it, I’ll look forward to discussing topics with future you.

Won’t put you on my ignore list for this like @Hussain who I’ve got a restraining order out for him stalking me...


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## kokodeshide (Feb 23, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Dude Calm down...





Turrin said:


> Funny though and I’ll see you later when you can admit your wrong.





Turrin said:


> Edit: for the record though I don’t think your a bad poster, I’ve seen other things from you that I like.





Turrin said:


> Just think you have this idea that you were going to prove me wrong when others failed and then in turn we’re proved wrong and can’t take the L.






Turrin said:


> It’s okay tho I get it, I’ll look forward to discussing topics with future you.





Turrin said:


> Won’t put you on my ignore list for this like @Hussain who I’ve got a restraining order out for him stalking me...


I'd be surprised if I was award that great honor after 1 mauling.


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