# Why Naruto is the Worst Piece of Fiction I've Ever Read - A Final Critique



## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

*INTRO*​When the Naruto story ended, I like many other readers felt disappointed and let down by the author, for various reason, but even still in many ways I acted as an apologist for the story. Like many others on this forum, I grew up with this story and discussed it almost religiously here on the forums; so when the story ultimately ended while I certainly voiced my discontent about it's flaws, there was still a part of me that made excuses for the story, such as, pushing all the blame onto the War-Arc and even more precisely the chapters surrounding the penultimate as well as final battles of the series. However after distancing myself from both the Naruto-Manga and largely the Naruto subsections of the forums for several months, i've come to the point where I can admit that this was not a fair assessment. It's not fair, because the disappoint I felt for how the manga ended, wasn't a product of simply a drop in quality for a certain amount of chapters, rather it was due to the story systematically contradicting and unraveling the fundamental theme that both established the story in Part I and captivated my interest in the series in the first place, and it is for that reason that I feel pretty confident in saying that the Naruto-Manga is both thee most disappointing piece of fiction as well as the worst written piece of fiction I've ever read in my entire life.

"A dropout will beat a genius through hard work."​
To me these words spoken by Lee, symbolize the heart and soul of this manga. From the readers first step into the Naruto-world the reader is exposed to this theme. The main protagonist is not an amazing fighter, not even for his age, in every sense he is average or even bellow average. In a genre such as shonen, where the Goku archetype, i.E. the genius from the jump, flooded the market, this less than speculatcular main protagonist is what made the story of Naruto stand out. It wasn't a tale about a genius basically achieving his birth right, it was an underdog story, where the protagonist struggles to utilize even the most basic skill, but through working himself nearly to death he is able to master a higher variation of that skill, which would latter come to define his entire fighting style. When Naruto competes against his rival Sasuke, it's this underline theme of the underdog having a chance to prove his efforts that adds emotional weight to their rivalry. When Naruto tells Neji that, _"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be!"_, it adds weight to his words. When we see Naruto defeat someone like Gaara, who had both metaphorically and realistically given in to his inner demon, instead of working hard to forge his own path, it adds weight to that accomplishment. And so on...

However as the story progressed, the message shifted to in essence the polar opposite. Hard-work and determination could not enable someone to beat a genius, instead they need freebie power ups from demons and otherworldly beings, as well as the most illustrious of lineages, and even more precisely destiny on their side to compete. The protagonist was no longer the underdog, but instead a descendent of the greatest heroes to walk to verse and even beyond that the reincarnation of one of these great heroes brought to bare in the mortal world. Hard work was displaced, by super modes, that were obtained with relative ease, if not outright served up to the protagonist on a silver platter, by an ancient alien that would make Giorgio A. Tsoukalos cream his pants. So deeply did Kishimoto subvert this theme that it is even evident in the pairing subplots; the protagonist's efforts did not shine through enough to captivate the heart of his love interest, and instead she remained fixated on the genius. The heroins were more aptly rewarded for their efforts, but the actualization of their efforts was never brought to bare in the actual story; Naruto remained fixated on Sakura and Sasuke remained largely a-sexual, sans a single half-hearted apology and forehead poke.

Ultimately this resulted in battles that long promised to hold emotional weight and depth, coming of flat, monotone, and more than anything else just going through the motions. Naruto defeating the main antagonist no longer held the weight it was long intended to, of Naruto actualizing his goal of becoming Hokage despite his dropout nature, because by than he was no longer a drop out, he was like all the other Goku clones that came before him, simply achieving his legacy; a legacy passed down to him via his father the previous Hokage and being the destined reincarnation of Ashura. In-fact the emotional weight of Naruto achieving the Hokage title was so undermined at that point, that when Kishimoto didn't even bother to show Naruto actually being crowned Hokage and wearing that mantel into battle, there was really no love loss for me, as the emotional weight was already long gone. I also found myself not caring, when Kishimoto only had Naruto achieve a symbolic and ultimately cop out style of victory over Sasuke, despite Naruto finally besting his rival being one of the most hyped and built up moments in the entire series, because that weight was again long gone. 

*Conclusion*​In closing, while there are many elements within the Naruto manga that came as disappointments to me, such as manga shifting it's combat style away from the more ninja type battles of Part I and early Part II to DBZ style fighting, numerous plot-holes, and a myriad of weak character narratives [Obito, Madara, etc...) as well as overarching plot narratives [Juubi, God-Tree, etc..], I could have forgiven these things and still found some degree of satisfaction with the story, however the subversion of what I feel is the heart and soul of the story, is something that I find unforgivable. Furthermore, I can not recall a single story that has metapohorically so systematically and throughly ripped it's own heart out to such a degree as the Naruto-manga, and it is for that reason, that I make this thread and feel completely comfortable saying that, the Naruto-manga is thee worst piece of fiction I've ever read. 

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Let me know your thoughts, do you agree with my reasoning, or for you was there another theme that Kishimoto ether honored or destroy'd that stuck out to you more as the heart of the story, and makes you ether feel the same way or better about the manga as a whole.

*Disclaimer*​In this thread, I was particularly harsh on the Naruto-manga, but I'm speaking about the overall story from a narrative standpoint. There are still things I very much enjoy about the manga, when looking at them in a vacuum away from the narrative, such as the creativity illustrated in forming the world, characters, and abilities.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 13, 2015)

Shortly after Lee spoke these words he fought Gaara, and once he entered the Fifth Gate Kakashi commented "This isn't just about hard work, that guy's a genius". Gai might not have known it when he decided to train him, but Lee had talent that eventually manifested into reality. 

You can't obtain a high level of power scale in this verse without having talent, Turrin.

Naruto was the transmigrant of a man who worked hard to obtain his power, as did Naruto. They were, however, still two of the most talented men to come into contact with chakra, they simply did not have the "quick learner" type of style that Indra & Sasuke did. Once they got the ground work down (learned the basics which took them long) they could control it like it was nobodies business. It doesn't matter how hard you work- you can't control that much chakra that well unless you have talent.

Naruto had talent even early on, he knew a B-rank (Kage Bunshin~ Chakra Splitting) and A-rank technique (Rasengan~ Chakra Spinning) at age 13. From that point it was clear he was going to be a Chakra-manipulating Ninjutsu Master (Perfect Sage, Perfect Jinchuriki).


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## Rokudaime (Mar 13, 2015)

> Why Naruto is the Worst Piece of Fiction I've Ever Read - A Final Critique



You need to read more mangas or fictions. Naruto is far from the worst piece of fiction.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Shortly after Lee spoke these words he fought Gaara, and once he entered the Fifth Gate Kakashi commented "This isn't just about hard work, that guy's a genius". Gai might not have known it when he decided to train him, but Lee had talent that eventually manifested into reality.
> .


Lee was a Genius, of _ hard-work_.



> You can't obtain a high level of power scale in this verse without having talent, Turrin.


My point was never about talent



> Naruto was the transmigrant of a man who worked hard to obtain his power, as did Naruto. They were, however, still two of the most talented men to come into contact with chakra, they simply did not have the "quick learner" type of style that Indra & Sasuke did. Once they got the ground work down (learned the basics which took them long) they could control it like it was nobodies business. It doesn't matter how hard you work- you can't control that much chakra that well unless you have talent.


Ashura had to work hard, or at least Rikudo claims that to be the case, to awaken powers he was born with, which is not the same thing.



> Naruto had talent even early on, he knew a B-rank (Kage Bunshin~ Chakra Splitting) and A-rank technique (Rasengan~ Chakra Spinning) at age 13. From that point it was clear he was going to be a Chakra-manipulating Ninjutsu Master (Perfect Sage, Perfect Jinchuriki).


Naruto originally had about average talent and than worked himself half to death as well as had solid masters or forbidden scrolls to draw knowledge from. 

That's different from being the destined child, being descended from heroes, getting instant or quick power ups, and so on.



Rokudaime said:


> You need to read more mangas or fictions. Naruto is far from the worst piece of fiction.


I've read well over 50 mangas and several hundred books, as an english major. Granted I don't go out of my way to read things of poor quality, so there are probably works that are worse than Naruto, I just haven't read them. But I wasn't saying Naruto is the worst ever, just the worst i've read.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 13, 2015)

> Lee was a Genius, of _ hard-work_.


No, Kakashi outright stated he was a genius separate from the concept of hard work, hence "this isn't just about hard work"



> Ashura had to work hard, or at least Rikudo claims that to be the case, to awaken powers he was born with, which is not the same thing.


It is the same thing. Naruto was born with talent, Minato believed it, and it turned out to be the truth. 



> Naruto originally had about average talent and than worked himself half to death as well as had solid masters or forbidden scrolls to draw knowledge from.


None of which had anything to do with him mastering Sage Mode or becoming a Perfect Jinchuriki, you need innate talent to do that. 

Rock Lee isn't capable of becoming a Perfect Jinchuriki because he lacks the talent to do so. Tsunade didn't believe anyone else could control it like Naruto [1]. 

Naruto was a slow learner, once he got the basics he then began to realize his potential, which is the ability to control vasts amount of bijuu chakra and natural energy better than basically everyone.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, Kakashi outright stated he was a genius separate from the concept of hard work, hence "this isn't just about hard work"


Yeah it's not just about ordinary hard-work. Lee is a genius of hard-work because he fucking works himself to near death and pushes beyond his limits.



> It is the same thing. Naruto was born with talent, Minato believed it, and it turned out to be the truth.


Yeah it became the same thing. Naruto was born from an illustrious lineage as the child of destiny and Ashura incarnation. Which tramples on Naruto being the underdog/dropout theme of the story.



> None of which had anything to do with him mastering Sage Mode or becoming a Perfect Jinchuriki, you need innate talent to do that.


I agree, hard-work didn't play a role in that, hence the OP where I very clearly explain why I take fault in that.

and no it was not talent, it was asspull power ups.



> Rock Lee isn't capable of becoming a Perfect Jinchuriki because he lacks the talent to do so.


LOLZ. Dude all you need to become a perfect Jinchuuriki is to get a Kuudere Bijuu to want your cock.



> Naruto was a slow learner, once he got the basics he then began to realize his potential, which is the ability to control vasts amount of bijuu chakra and natural energy better than basically everyone.


So basically this translates to, Naruto originally had to work harder than everyone else to achieve great things and overcome not being born with innate talents (as in bloodlines and shit). Versus how it became later where ancient esoteric arts can be mastered complete and than some in a weeks time, and even more so he gets power ups for free because Kurama and Hagoromo like him.


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## TRN (Mar 13, 2015)

Hey Turrin

Will you be reading the new naruto short series this april?


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 13, 2015)

> Yeah it's not just about ordinary hard-work. Lee is a genius of hard-work because he fucking works himself to near death and pushes beyond his limits.


The dude mastered the Fifth Gate in his teenage years.

Kakashi outright called him a genius because of this. And I also believe Lee is a genius that transcends the concept of hard work. 



> Yeah it became the same thing. Naruto was born from an illustrious lineage as the child of destiny and Ashura incarnation. Which tramples on Naruto being the underdog/dropout theme of the story.


But he was the underdog, as was Ashura. 

Indra realized his talent without effort, Ashura had to work to realize it. 

Naruto was an orphan ostracized by everyone in his village, void of acknowledgement in his early years. He worked, realized his talents and then became a great hero acknowledged by everyone. This is an underdog story, I'm not sure how you fail to see this. People outright told him he wouldn't become Hokage. 



> and no it was not talent, it was asspull power ups.


Power ups that require talent to control and sustain. 



> LOLZ. Dude all you need to become a perfect Jinchuuriki is to get a Kuudere Bijuu to want your cock.


What? Do you actually think anyone in the manga can become a Perfect Jinchuriki? No one in the manga could control the 9 tails chakra the way Naruto did other than Ashura. 



> So basically this translates to, Naruto originally had to work harder than everyone else to achieve great things and overcome not being born with innate talents (as in bloodlines and shit). Versus how it became later where ancient esoteric arts can be mastered complete and than some in a weeks time, and even more so he gets power ups for free because Kurama and Hagoromo like him.


He got the power ups because he was the only one capable of controlling said power ups as the transmigrant of Ashura.


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## Ghost (Mar 13, 2015)

No one cares. Trash this thread, mods.


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## Mikon (Mar 13, 2015)

Can you name the 50 mangas that you read?


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 13, 2015)

You should read my pycho thread lol. You are not in alone in your harsh judgement of this popular manga.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

Mikon said:


> Can you name the 50 mangas that you read?



Here's a list of the manga/manwha I am currently reading:

1. Tokyo Ghoul, Tokyo Ghoul: Jack, Tokyo Ghoul: Re
2. Kamisama no Iutoori, Kamisama no Iutoori Ni 
3. Berserk
4. Vagabond
5. Vinland Saga
6. Breaker, Breaker New Waves
7. Tower of God
8. Soul Cartel
9. Jitsu wa Watashi wa
10. Assasin Classroom
11. Toriko
12. Bleach
14. One Piece
16. Onepunch-Man 
17. Nisekoi 
18. Fairy Tale, Fairy Tale Zero
19. Girl the Wild's
20. The Gamer
21. Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari
22. Can't I Expect A Chance Encounter In The Dungeon?
23. Nanatsu no Taizai
24. HunterXHunter
25. Pandora Hearts
26. Cage of Eden
27. Hajime no Ippo
28. Freezing, Freezing Zero
29. Green Worldz
30. City of Dead Sorcerer 
31. Shingeki no Kyojin, Shingeki no Kyojin Before the Fall
32. Geppeto
33. Tegami Bachi
34. Chihayafuru
35. Akame ga Kiru!
36. Kingdom
37. Flow



Series I completed or dropped:
1. Naruto
2. Yu Yu Haksho
3. Dragon-Ball 
4. Flame or Recca
5. Full Metal Alchemist
6. Inyuyasha
7. Monster
8. God of Highschool
9. Beezlebub
10. Magi
11. Historys Strongest Disciple Kenichi
12. Air Gear
13. Karate Shoukoushi Kohinata Minoru
14. Claymore
15. 1/2 Prince
16. Soul Eater
17. Katekyo Hitman Reborn
18. Bakuman
20. Kimi Ni Todoke
21. Ao No Exorcist
22. Gantz
23. Deadman Wonderland
24. D.Gray-Man
25. Medaka Box
26. Gamaran
27. GE - Good Ending
28. Wolf Guy Ookami no Monshou
29. Code Breaker
30. Kekkaishi
31. Ubel Blatt
32. Zetman
33. Btooom!
34. Death Note
35. Psyren
36. Monster

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That's missing a least 20-30 on the completed list, that I just can't remember the title off or didn't bother to add; and probably 10 on the following list.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> You should read my pycho thread lol. You are not in alone in your harsh judgement of this popular manga.


I'll check it out.


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## Raniero (Mar 13, 2015)

You read Fairy Tail.


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## Brian (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Here's a list of the manga/manwha I am currently reading:
> 
> 1. Tokyo Ghoul, Tokyo Ghoul: Jack, Tokyo Ghoul: Re
> 2. Kamisama no Iutoori, Kamisama no Iutoori Ni
> ...



And you're saying Naruto is the worst fiction you've read? Come on


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Rokudaime said:


> You need to read more mangas or fictions. Naruto is far from the worst piece of fiction.



Agreed.

Not saying I totally consider 666 Satan as "worst" piece of fiction. But Seishi Kishmoto using stereotypical Shounen type characters, relationships makes it rip-off'ish and bad.


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## ScottofFury (Mar 13, 2015)

I agree, Naruto turned to shit after the timeskip.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Sigh... @ people continuously bitching about Naruto after timeskip

@Turirn

Yo, you listed Monster twice chief.


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## Ghost (Mar 13, 2015)

>freezing
>bleach
>fairy tail
>agk


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## Zef (Mar 13, 2015)

"Naruto remained fixated on Sakura"

Lol, no. Invalidated the entire post.


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## Deleted member 23 (Mar 13, 2015)

Raniero said:


> You read Fairy Tail.



This, FT is the worst piece of fiction know to man. There's no way naruto could be worse than FT. It's impossible.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Zef said:


> "Naruto remained fixated on Sakura"
> 
> Lol, no. Invalidated the entire post.



Yeah, sorry agreeing with Zef here. You ruined yourself when you said that Turrin.

I like most of your posts but this one just destroyed the credibility of your  thread.


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## Corvida (Mar 13, 2015)

Zef said:


> "Naruto remained fixated on Sakura"
> 
> Lol, no. Invalidated the entire post.



I love how this




> []the protagonist's efforts did not shine through enough to captivate the heart of his love interest, and instead she remained fixated on the genius



means-"Did not get the girl"

AS the protagonist efforst had stopped being fixated about getting the prize even long before the Iron Land disater.

And how about your first theme-how you categorize  a main that has the most powerful entity known  during part one sealed in him?

Naruto always was an  special  "underdog", even before the child of profecy disaster.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

TRN said:


> Hey Turrin
> 
> Will you be reading the new naruto short series this april?


I'll read the first chapter out of curiosity. Whether I read beyond that depends. If it's just a 5 chapter mini story like Gaiden than probably will end up powering through it in a couple of minutes, so sure, why not. But if it turns into a much longer read or a full on manga (Weekly, Monthly, Etc... serialized), Kishi is really going to have to blow me away with the first few chapters in terms of story direction, for me to keep up with it as I really have no faith in Kishimoto's ability to tell a cohesive narrative at this point.


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## Meat (Mar 13, 2015)

I hate Turrin but he is right on this one. 

But bad move on your thread title. Naruto fanboys will try to sway off the point of your thread by using that against you.


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## Larcher (Mar 13, 2015)

For something to be the worst, it has to be entirely bad. Naruto isn't entirely bad.

Also, saying Fairy Tail is better is stupid.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Meat said:


> I hate Turrin but he is right on this one.




Don't hate... .... appreciate. 

Unfortunately, this is one thread of yours that I don't appreciate Turrin.


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## Milliardo (Mar 13, 2015)

turrin, i completely agree bro. don't be afraid to voice your opinion because these sensitive fanboys can't handle someone talking about their precious manga. 

people should be allowed to explain how they feel regardless if it is a positive or negative speech. you naruto fanboys need to step back and grow the fuck up. if it hurts your feelings to see bad things about your favorite little manga then you shouldn't enter the thread.


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## Larcher (Mar 13, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> turrin, i completely agree bro. don't be afraid to voice your opinion because these sensitive fanboys can't handle someone talking about their precious manga.
> 
> people should be allowed to explain how they feel regardless if it is a positive or negative speech. you naruto fanboys need to step back and grow the fuck up. if it hurts your feelings to see bad things about your favorite little manga then you shouldn't enter the thread.



Um, regarding something someone likes is the worst thing thing they've read is an easy way to rile people up, there's much worst things out there. You've either not read much, or simply full of shit if you're convinced Naruto is the worst.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> turrin, i completely agree bro. don't be afraid to voice your opinion because these sensitive fanboys can't handle someone talking about their precious manga.






If you look at the chapters in the war arc finale with Juubito I was one of the many people that called out the series for being a pile of shit and vowing to stop reading at certain points. Like most writers Kishi has something called a writer's block. In some arcs (mostly the first or second one of part II IMO) Kishi had his moments or few fights, dialogue scenes in subsequent arcs. However, that does not mean becuase the entirety of Part II had heavy fail written moments does not mean the whole series sucks. 

I've dropped a whole lot more series with protagonist similar to Naruto. Peacemaker Kurogane is a good example of one. Not only was the key theme hardly ever in sight but it was just terrible majority of times.


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## Kusa (Mar 13, 2015)

Don't exaggerate man..

It should be the most potencial wasted manga you have read, but the worst ? come on...

It could be only the worst if you only read good mangas, but with Fairy Tail being in your list, this could be not the case.


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## Mikon (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Here's a list of the manga/manwha I am currently reading:
> 
> 1. Tokyo Ghoul, Tokyo Ghoul: Jack, Tokyo Ghoul: Re
> 2. Kamisama no Iutoori, Kamisama no Iutoori Ni
> ...



These mangas are worse by a long shot


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

If Kishi didn't goof up the first couple of arcs I'm certain I would've enjoyed it a lot more. I had to will myself to be more open to understanding certain plot points rather than bitch about them. The mysticism of Chakra is one of them. 

Readers like Turrin who lost his momentum with the story are the people who consider it "worst piece of fiction" read.

EDIT:

@Turrin

C'mon man that's a harsh statement calling Naruto "the worst".


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

Meat said:


> I hate Turrin but he is right on this one.
> 
> But bad move on your thread title. Naruto fanboys will try to sway off the point of your thread by using that against you.


The thing is that I actually feel Naruto is the worst piece of fiction i've ever read, from a narrative stand-point, so I can't really express my true thoughts on it any other way.



Zef said:


> "Naruto remained fixated on Sakura"
> 
> Lol, no. Invalidated the entire post.


I hate to be like this, but honestly the opinions of the staunch NaruHina fans, that try to defend the pairings narrative integrity, on what is good narrative writing are invalidated to me from the jump, due to head in sand levels of bias, so I guess were even. 



Larcher said:


> For something to be the worst, it has to be entirely bad. Naruto isn't entirely bad.


Here's the thing, what is thee worst is subjective. Each of us have different standards that we use to define what we feel is the worst, best, etc... So while Naruto might not be the worst for you because it has redeeming qualities, doesn't mean it isn't the worst for me, as I don't evaluate what is worst by those criteria. I admire the positive qualities of Kishimoto's writing, but for me destroying the fundamental theme and heart of the story out weighs these things making it the worst series i've read. Though again, key word their is "worst i've read", there might and probably are stories that have no redeeming qualities and destroy their fundamental theme, which would be worst; I just haven't read them.



> Also, saying Fairy Tail is better is stupid.


Fairy-Tale's problem is different than Naruto's. Fairy's Tales main theme is friendship and camaraderie overcome all obstacles. This is a childish and shallow theme for the story to be based around that generates a number of silly moments, but FT hasn't destroyed that theme. Simply put FT is a very shallow narrative, but you know that going in and it delivers on the aspects that would keep someone reading the series beyond the first few chapters; Naruto on the other hand commits narrative suicide by intentionally raping it's fundamental premise and theme that readers picked up the story to for in the first place.

Or to put it another way. FT is like marrying someone you know is abusive, you know he/she is going to abuse you, but are choosing to put up with that for the other qualities that attract you to her/him. While Naruto on the other hand is like marrying someone who seems to be a wonderful guy/gal, and than out of nowhere several years down the line he/she starts punching the shit out of you every week. To me the latter is worst.



Milliardo said:


> turrin, i completely agree bro. don't be afraid to voice your opinion because these sensitive fanboys can't handle someone talking about their precious manga.
> 
> people should be allowed to explain how they feel regardless if it is a positive or negative speech. you naruto fanboys need to step back and grow the fuck up. if it hurts your feelings to see bad things about your favorite little manga then you shouldn't enter the thread.


Agreed, It's not like i'm forcing anyone to agree with me, In-fact I opened things up specifically to allow people to voice their views. However people telling me nah, this manga is worst and your stupid for thinking it isn't, isn't going to change my opinion of what I feel is the worst, I.E. Naruto.



Bender said:


> @Turrin
> 
> C'mon man that's a harsh statement calling Naruto "the worst".


Sorry, but there are just too many things that make me feel this way with how the story was handled to make me take back my statement. Every time I try and think about whether i'm being to harsh on the story, I just come up with more reasons as to why I feel it's the worst. I mean just now the thought that went through my mind when writing some of these responses, is wow Sasuke vs Naruto rematch was hyped up since the end of Part I, which is like a decade of hype, and the end result was one of the most underwhelming battles I've read in any Manga, both artistically in the sense of how the combat was drawn out and lacking any sense of emotional depth or weight; one of the most hyped fights in all of Shonen Manga results in a rushed, obviously for the sake of a movie, bland and shallow battle that is surpassed even by shitty flash animations on Youtube or blown the fuck away by the OVA in terms of combat, and literally any fan could have written the motivations, dialog, etc.. better than it actually went down; and I mean any fan whatsoever.


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## Milliardo (Mar 13, 2015)

Larcher said:


> Um, regarding something someone likes is the worst thing thing they've read is an easy way to rile people up, there's much worst things out there. You've either not read much, or simply full of shit if you're convinced Naruto is the worst.


well first off you allow people to 'rile' you up because this is just words and someone's opinion. its not like someone walked up and punched you in the face. you need to be more mature and respect other people's opinion whether you like it or not. even if you think its too vulgar or way off.

secondly this is his opinion and he can claim whatever he wants. he didn't treat it as a fact that it was the worst out there only the worst he ever read.

yea, sure you can compare it to fanfiction or some little kid's story written by a ten year old to make it look better and feel better about it but its sad to compare it to lesser shit to boost its status. i compare naruto to its self namely part one and theres a huge drop off.

i don't care if people like what i'm posting as i post what i think and feel not what is the popular opinion around here. you don't like that well thats too fucking bad.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

> I hate to be like this, but honestly the opinions of the staunch NaruHina fans, that try to defend the pairings narrative integrity, on what is good narrative writing are invalidated to me from the jump, due to head in sand levels of bias, so I guess were even.





...So let me get this straight. Because we're happy we're going to water down whatever shit we believe on how Naruto is with NaruSaku?

Is that what you're saying?

You know how off-base that is a on a elaborative level and off-putting on a civil level?



Milliardo said:


> secondly this is his opinion and he can claim whatever he wants. he didn't treat it as a fact that it was the worst out there only the worst he read.



It's his opinion. Good for him.  However, trying to phrase it as a fact is what is strongly being implied here friend when dudes like you are endorsing it and making it out to be like that even though there's strong number of people that are picking apart flaws in his reasoning.

The rational of suggesting because NaruHina fans are happy they aren't reliable to refute his claim of saying "Naruto was still infatuated with Sakura" is on every level horribly written argument. 

Furthermore, it's hardly only NaruHina disagreeing that Naruto was infatuated with Sakura but even fucking Kishi coming out and saying that Naruto's attraction to Sakura was a crush. Crushes aren't serious.


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## Larcher (Mar 13, 2015)

@Turrin 

No, Fairy Tails problem is it's a complete fucking failure, that's never really done anything good. It can't make the same mistakes made in Naruto, because the premise complex enough to do anything, anyway. 

It's also not all to do with contradictions.


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## Corvida (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I hate to be like this, but honestly the opinions of the staunch NaruHina fans, that try to defend the pairings narrative integrity, on what is good narrative writing are invalidated to me from the jump, due to head in sand levels of bias, so I guess were even.



You  still have failed to explain when it was said  " snatching the girl from rival " was listed as a Naruto objective or contractual obligation.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

> Sorry, but there are just too many things that make me feel this way with how the story was handled to make me take back my statement. Every time I try and think about whether i'm being to harsh on the story, I just come up with more reasons as to why I feel it's the worst. I mean just now the thought that went through my mind when writing some of these responses, is wow Sasuke vs Naruto rematch was hyped up since the end of Part I, which is like a decade of hype, and the end result was one of the most underwhelming battles I've read in any Manga, both artistically in the sense of how the combat was drawn out and lacking any sense of emotional depth or weight; one of the most hyped fights in all of Shonen Manga results in a rushed, obviously for the sake of a movie, bland and shallow battle that is surpassed even by shitty flash animations on Youtube or blown the fuck away by the OVA in terms of combat, and literally any fan could have written the motivations, dialog, etc.. better than it actually went down; and I mean any fan whatsoever.



Firstly, wow run-on sentence.

Secondly, I should point out not most battles are going to be completely fair and have two characters fighting with their all. They're ninjas. 

Inspirational source of manga, Kouga Ninpochou scrolls ninja even fought when their opponents were at disadvantages. If anything Naruto's final battle with Sasuke in Kaguya arc was the battle that was going to happen. The first fight we saw between Naruto and Sasuke when he entered in part II was bound to show Sasuke's improvement over Naruto. If it was something that showed how they were both equal it would make their battle a redundant rehash of the original in which other circumstances allow Sasuke to escape.

Also Sasuke's showing his new improvements is the reason we were able to get first mention of Madara who was a monumental piece in the plots movement.

EDIT:

@Larcher

Even I used to be a NaruSaku person and I could see that Sakura's heart was stuck on Sasuke no matter what type of attempt Naruto made to woo her.


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## qazmko (Mar 13, 2015)

but you read Bleach and Fairy Tail


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

Bender said:


> ...So let me get this straight. Because we're happy we're going to water down whatever shit we believe on how Naruto is with NaruSaku?
> 
> Is that what you're saying?
> 
> You know how off-base that is a on a elaborative level and off-putting on a civil level?



I don't really understand what your trying to say here, sorry. But I wasn't speaking to you in that post, as I thought you were just joking around, but guess not.....



Larcher said:


> @Turrin
> 
> No, Fairy Tails problem is it's a complete fucking failure, that's never really done anything good. It can't make the same mistakes made in Naruto, because the premise complex enough to do anything, anyway.
> 
> It's also not all to do with contradictions.


And once again that is your subjective definition of what the worst is. My definition is different.



Corvida said:


> You  still have failed to explain when it was said  " snatching the girl from rival " was listed as a Naruto objective or contractual obligation.


Because it's not the point of the thread. You are looking at one sentence and than having your eyes go red and ignoring everything else. It's not just about Naruto not succeeding in "snatching the girl from rival ", as that alone would not be an issue to me. I include that as it illustrates my thoughts that on every level the story completely subverted it's underling theme. Sakura remaining fixated on Sasuke is one example, other examples is how undermined Hinata and Sakura's efforts are, with Kishi not allowing rewarding them with solid enough moments of actualizing their pairings. So it is in all instance of pairings I feel this theme is subverted, with romance being only one example I mentioned for like 2 sentences about how on every level this theme is subverted.

But because NaruHina fans are blinded by anything that can even remotely come off as a negative towards the epic romance for the ages fanfic narrative that is being told among that community, they can't get past that shit. Now i'm hoping that you can demonstrate that does not apply to you and realize the actual meaning of why I included that stuff in my write up.



Bender said:


> Firstly, wow run-on sentence.
> 
> Secondly, I should point out not most battles are going to be completely fair and have two characters fighting with their all. They're ninjas.
> 
> ...


Seriously dude, like nothing you said has anything to do with any of the issues I had with the fight and no where did I indicate those were the issues I had w/ the fight.


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## Milliardo (Mar 13, 2015)

Bender said:


> It's his opinion. Good for him.  However, trying to phrase it as a fact is what is strongly being implied here friend


it is? turrin told me he was open to discussion and i haven't seen him state it as a fact yet.



> when dudes like you are endorsing it and making it out to be like that


 what i do is back people who have a legitimate claim about the manga but it is a negative view because you guys flood in ready to jump the person over their opinion because they're not praising naruto.



> even though there's strong number of people that are picking apart flaws in his reasoning.


this is purely your opinion not fact. thats kind of ironic considering your claim.


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## Saturnine (Mar 13, 2015)

Yeah, Naruto was pretty fucking terrible in the long run. Glad it's over, no care ever.


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## Corvida (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I
> 
> 
> Because it's not the point of the thread. You are looking at one sentence and than having your eyes go red and ignoring everything else. It's not just about Naruto not succeeding in "snatching the girl from rival ", as that alone would not be an issue to me. I include that as it illustrates my thoughts that on every level the story completely subverted *it's underling theme.[/B
> *


*

There is where I wanted you and where I  must ask you again-since when Narusaku not happening is a theme or subtheme subversi?n? Does it affect so much your "Didnt got the girl? mentality?  was getting  Sakura even stated as a    a Naruto goal and dream, that his "losing the girl" affcect you that much  that you consider it as an exmple of  theMATIC subversi?n OMG RIVAL WON!!!!!?




			] Sakura remaining fixated on Sasuke is one example, other examples is how undermined Hinata and Sakura's efforts are, with Kishi not allowing rewarding them with solid enough moments of actualizing their pairings.
		
Click to expand...

 In Sakura?s case, that?s simply becasue  you dont consider  the meaning of Sasuke?s   poke  gesture in all what it means to him-or the verbatim repetition  of their partimg in 181-Sakura woudnt blush like that if she hadnt noticed something. On Hinata?s case. all that handholding rollercoaster, cover included- and it was big enough to created a shit storm here-was enough for Kishi to asume they got closer after the war, even if we didnt have the movie.-and the movie had to make Hinata actually regress a little for the plot to move,you figure




			So it is in all instance of pairings I feel this theme is subverted, with romance being only one example I mentioned for like 2 sentences about how on every level this theme is subverted.
		
Click to expand...


Pitiful-So now you say that those por girls wernt not rewarded enough with all that baby everaftering, so..... 




			But because NaruHina fans are blinded by anything that can even remotely come off as a negative towards the epic romance for the ages fanfic narrative that is being told among that community, that's all they can't get past that shit. Now i'm hoping that you can demonstrate that does not apply to you and realize the actual meaning of why I included that stuff in my write up.
		
Click to expand...


No-You went full NarSaku years ago for the worst posible motive-.becasue it "illustrated" perfectly your "hero gets what he wants"  fixation. 

Sakura was a false ,love interest and you went kaboom.


Well, he didnt want her. Look at him when Sakura confessed to Sasuke ...for the second time-or when he said farewell to dead dad.


All your flowering Fireworks about Naruto failing to"captivate Sakura ?s heart " after all his-how did you call them-"efforts"  is dismounted from the base when it?s made clear even before the Iron Land fiasco that hero "efforts" werent  made with the   conscious intention of conquering her

Naruto didnt fail, Sakura didnt fail (she almost did when she tried to follow the heroine rules textbook and failfessed)- Even if the clich? -hey, loser won the gurl from evil cool bastard -didnt click, the subversion doesnt make  a thematic failure.*


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

Bender said:


> It's his opinion. Good for him.  However, trying to phrase it as a fact is what is strongly being implied here friend when dudes like you are endorsing it and making it out to be like that even though there's strong number of people that are picking apart flaws in his reasoning.


How are people agreeing with my opinion or understanding my opinion, make it a fact? All that does is indicate some people share similar opinions. 

Or are you saying that i'm stating this is a fact. If so, that makes no sense. I wrote the entire opening in the style of an editorial critique, which means it's my opinion. I opened up discussion for others to voice their own opinions in that same openings, and have numerous times in responses talked about the subjectivity of defining what is the worst for each individual.



> like that even though there's strong number of people that are picking apart flaws in his reasoning.


Literally no one has pointed out a single legitimate flaw in my reasoning. Thee only arguments are literally, "no x is worse than Naruto", which is subjective and "I stopped reading due to x pairing reason that caused me to rage", which is completely invalid off topic nonsense.



> The rational of suggesting because NaruHina fans are happy they aren't reliable to refute his claim of saying "Naruto was still infatuated with Sakura" is on every level horribly written argument.


Actually I never said that, bruv, I said that I do not take staunch NaruHina, that try to defend the narrative integrity of that pairing to the point of ignoring the overarching issue i'm speaking of in the thread. That is inherently different than what your claiming here. I have no problem with NaruHina fans being happy, in-fact that's great.

Basically there is a difference between that and someone who comes in here and bitches that oh Naruto wasn't into Sakura anymore in the war-arc, which has .0001% to do with what i'm speaking about in this thread. And it's the latter posters that I don't take seriously.



> Furthermore, it's hardly only NaruHina disagreeing that Naruto was infatuated with Sakura but even fucking Kishi coming out and saying that Naruto's attraction to Sakura was a crush. Crushes aren't serious.


And whether it was a crush or "true-love" has what exactly to do with what i'm speaking towards in this thread. Answer; nothing whatsoever. So why is it being brought up. I'll tell you why, because any little thing triggers certain NaruHina fans to freak the fuck out over nothing.


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## Zef (Mar 13, 2015)

FairyTail must be super bad.

Several YouTube reviewers raged quit it.

KOL
Link removed

Sawyer
Link removed

Even ForneverWorld bashed it.
Link removed

I read a few chapters, and felt like barfing. Naruto is definitely superior to that garbage.


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## Deleted member 23 (Mar 13, 2015)

Zef said:


> FairyTail must be super bad.
> 
> Several YouTube reviewers raged quit it.
> 
> I read a few chapters, and felt like barfing. Naruto is definitely superior to that garbage.



It's worse than One Piece, if that's even possible. FT is horrible, espically that Hades arc.. oh boy..


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## Gunners (Mar 13, 2015)

Opening this thread is like stepping in dog shit a split second before you see where your foot is landing. 

I understand some people try to throw in a little bit of flare when presenting their opinion, but to say it is the worst piece of fiction you have read when you go on to mention Fairy Tail, Reborn and Freezing is many steps too far. 

That Naruto not ending up with Sakura is a supporting argument is just sad.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

Corvida said:


> There is where I wanted you and where I  must ask you again-since when Narusaku not happening is a _theme or subtheme subversi?n_? Does it affect so much your "Didnt got the girl? mentality?  was getting  Sakura even stated as a    a Naruto goal and dream, that his "losing the girl" affcect you that much  that you consider it as an exmple of  theMATIC subversi?n OMG RIVAL WON!!!!!?


Yes it's thematic subversion. The theme of the story going in was hard-work and determination can allow someone to overcome someone else who is more naturally well endowed. Sakura loved Sasuke, due to his natural assets; pretty boy, genius, popular, etc... The hard-work Naruto put into building a real relationship with Sakura and being there for her on a much more intimate and downright human level than Sasuke ever was, ultimately not succeeding in shifting Sakura to him from Sasuke, can be seen as hard-work and determination failing to prevail over the natural assets Sasuke had. 

With that said, it does not effect what i'm speaking towards that much by itself, because a single instance of subversion, can be explained in numerous ways. Such as love not being bound by something understandable or explainable, or whatever. However when viewed collectively with all the other instances of subversion, it helps to convey the overall feeling of the Naruto manga destroying it's heart and soul, which makes me view the series as the worst. Basically you are looking at this single point individually in a vacuum, when it's suppose to be viewed as part of a collective statement on the way the narrative ended up taking shape as a whole.



> In Sakura?s case, that?s simply becasue you dont consider the meaning of Sasuke?s poke gesture in all what it means to him-or the verbatim repetition of their partimg in 181-Sakura woudnt blush like that if she hadnt noticed something. On Hinata?s case. all that handholding rollercoaster, cover included- and it was big enough to created a shit storm here-was enough for Kishi to asume they gol closer after the war, even if we didnt have the movie.


Your right I don't consider these things to be great enough payoffs for the efforts that Hinata and Sakura put into fostering these relationships, in accordance to what I view as at least initially the overarching theme of the story. If they are big enough pay off for you, than great - that's wonderful - but that's why once again this is a subjective piece of writing to put my opinion to paper (or forum in this case), not a piece of writing intended to state that this is the way things are and everyone who disagrees is wrong.



> Pitiful-So now you say that those por girls wernt not rewarded enough with all that baby everaftering, so.....


Yes, I do no think Hinata after all her efforts, never even getting to have a moment where Naruto truly acknowledges and speaks to her about his feelings towards her confession and the strength of character as well as determination she exhibited in these instance, is not a great enough pay off for me to feel as if the narrative stayed true enough to it's routes. Like wise the same applies to Sakura, as an off hand apology and forehead poke is not enough in my mind for Sasuke to truly make up for and reward someone who has continued to work themselves to the bone to try and become a pillar of support for him and continued to have faith and love him despite him outright attempting to murder her. Again if your okay with that, cool, again this is an editorial piece and i'm simply saying I am not.



> No-You went full NarSaku years ago for the worst posible motive-.becasue it "illustrated" perfectly your "hero gets what he wants" fixation.
> 
> Sakura was a false ,ove interest and you went kaboom.


This is a straw-man. I've always enjoyed NaruHina more than NaruSakura, mostly because Hinata and Naruto are the only character in any of the pairings that I had any sympathy for on a human level. However despite thinking that NaruHina made the best pairing, I thought NarutoSakura was more likely as it would be an easy way for Kishi to drive home this overarching theme that I've been speaking of and in-order to be yet another parallel kishi can draw between Team 7 and other teams, even if it came at the expense of not getting thee most desirable pairing, as I didn't think Kishi cared that much about creating the most desirable pairing, as he did about parallel wanking and the overarching theme of the story. And I don't think anyone should really blame me for that considering how much Kishi wanked the fuck out of parallels in every other facet of the story.



> Well, he didnt want her. Look at him when Sakura confessed to Sasuke ...for the second time-or when he said farewell to dead dad.


Let's say Naruto by the war-arc didn't want Sakura anymore, cool, that means fuck all to the points i'm speaking towards. He still did not acknowledge Hinata's efforts suitably enough for me to feel as if Kishi honored the hard-work and determination Hinata exhibited in building her relationship with Naruto. He was still crushing on Sakura after the events of Pain arc and never even spoke to Hinata about her confession, didn't even bring her flowers to thank her for saving his life, nothing. Than in the war all he did was hold her hand, that's as good as it got, which is not enough imo. Again if it's enough for you, great, but this is my opinion.



> All your flowering Fireworks about Naruto failing to"captivate Sakura ?s heart " after all his-how did you call them-"efforts" is dismounted from the base when it?s made clear even before the Iron Land fiasco that hero "efforts" werent made with the conscious intention of conquering her


All of my flowering fireworks? Are you referring to the single sentence in a nearly 7,000 characters post? Beyond that whether Naruto stopped having romantic interest in Sakura as of the land of iron or not, has nothing to do with my point. It's not Naruto's feelings that I feel need to be immutable, it's Sakura's feelings remaining unchanged that I feel subverts the overarching theme of the series. But again it is only one subversion, not the sole point i'm making in this thread, which is again why this point amounted to 1 sentence in a nearly 7,000 characters post.



> Naruto didnt fail, Sakura didnt fail (she almost did when she tried to follow the heroine rules textbook and failfessed)- Even if the clich? -hey, loser won the gurl from evil cool bastard -didnt click, the subversion doesnt make a thematic failure.


Naruto did fail. Even if by the end he no longer held romantic feelings for Sakura, he did for most of the series and therefore he failed throughout most of the series to build that relationship into anything more than being one-sided. 

Sakura didn't fail, but imo the author did not "reward" (not the best word, for this but can't think of a better one at the moment), her enough for her efforts or provide the reader enough of a reason to relish in her success. Same thing with Hinata. But again if you feel differently, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I don't really understand what your trying to say here, sorry. But I wasn't speaking to you in that post, as I thought you were just joking around, but guess not.....








> And once again that is your subjective definition of what the worst is. My definition is different.



The worst is a series that fails its own message and can't be original with its audience.





> But because NaruHina fans are blinded by anything that can even remotely come off as a negative towards the epic romance for the ages fanfic narrative that is being told among that community, they can't get past that shit. Now i'm hoping that you can demonstrate that does not apply to you and realize the actual meaning of why I included that stuff in my write up.



Okay and this is why I am vehemently and amusingly unable to take your thread seriously. It's because approach to negative things by the canon pairing that you think we're unreliable is what your post is saying.

Seriously dude, like nothing you said has anything to do with any of the issues I had with the fight and no where did I indicate those were the issues I had w/ the fight.[/QUOTE]




> And whether it was a crush or "true-love" has what exactly to do with what i'm speaking towards in this thread. Answer; nothing whatsoever. So why is it being brought up. I'll tell you why, because any little thing triggers certain NaruHina fans to freak the fuck out over nothing.



You're generalizing like hell. This is precisely why I realized my own dipshit mode when I was apart of NaruSaku. I don't care which pairing you're affiliated with, nor am I going to guess but I believe that you're using that as a basis as a piece of what makes tards of this series. 

Question: have you ever been able to differentiate between love and a crush? They're verses apart in definition.



> Seriously dude, like nothing you said has anything to do with any of the issues I had with the fight and no where did I indicate those were the issues I had w/ the fight.



I know it isn't I'm stating that's the reality of the fights in Naruto part II and how it's similar to actual ninja fights and how they happen in most fiction.



> what i do is back people who have a legitimate claim about the manga but it is a negative view because you guys flood in ready to jump the person over their opinion because they're not praising naruto.



I could care less about his opinion. I jump in and snark because that's one of my favorite things to do in threads on claims like this and YouTube videos with the same content. 

Before I was going to reply I was going to carefully analyze the post but Zef's quote on his generalization regarding NaruHina immediately eliminated the "legitimacy" of this thread.

Okay, this thread has officially turned into shipping peeves influencing and ruining the stability of Naruto's story now. 



Turrin said:


> Yes it's thematic subversion. The theme of the story going in was hard-work and determination can allow someone to overcome someone else who is more naturally well endowed. Sakura loved Sasuke, due to his natural assets; pretty boy, genius, popular, etc... The hard-work Naruto put into building a real relationship with Sakura and being there for her on more intimate and downright human level than Sasuke ever was, ultimately not succeeding in shifting Sakura to him from Sasuke, can be seen as hard-work and determination failing to prevail over the natural assets Sasuke had.



What hard-work? Care to provide an instance which Naruto genuinely acts someone other than himself when talking with Sakura on a socializing basis? 

Allow me to start off: When Sakura said she "loved" Naruto over Sasuke he called bullshit. It's at that point Naruto doesn't even care to pursue romantically anymore. In part I it was a promise to her but then it became more than that because Naruto and Sasuke had such a strong connection to each other.




> With that said, it does not effect what i'm speaking towards that much by itself, because a single instance of subversion, can be explained in numerous ways. Such as love not being bound something understandable or explainable, or whatever. However when viewed collectively with all the other instances of subversion, it helps to convey the overall feeling of the Naruto manga destroying it's heart and sole, which makes me view the series as the worst. Basically you are looking at this single point individually in a vacuum, when it's suppose to be viewed as part of a collective statement on the way the narrative ended up taking shape as a whole.



How were their subversions?  If there was anything it was poor execution. 




> Yes, I do no think Hinata after all her efforts, never even getting to have a moment where Naruto truly acknowledges and speaks to her about his feelings towards her confession and the strength of character as well as determination she exhibited in these instance, is not a great enough pay off for me to feel as if the narrative stayed true enough to it's routes. Like wise the same applies to Sakura, as an off hand apology and forehead poke is not enough in my mind for Sasuke to truly make up for and reward someone who has continued to work themselves to the bone to try and become a pillar of support for him and continued to have faith and love him despite him outright attempting to murder her.



Before I quote anything else I gotta say man you gotta learn to use periods. I don't like being grammar nazi but you should use them more. 

On Hinata: Following the conclusion of Pain arc and her confession even though Naruto misinterpreted it as "love you and everyone" Naruto has stopped pursuing Sakura romantically. 

Also Naruto has never made Sakura of the same height as his goal of becoming hokage. NEVER. She was never at that level. 

@Corvida

I'm also irritated by Turrin's posts on NaruSaku making most messages a subversion but please don't make personal attacks like saying he liked NaruSaku more than NaruHina. I've seen him post in thread I made called "Who are you happier for: Sakura or Hinata" and he said Hinata. He is on NaruHina like he says.


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## Patrick (Mar 13, 2015)

Naruto was a great concept that was horribly developed. Especially towards the end the quality was nonexistent, however as a whole it is still better than a few on your list like FT, Bleach and Freezing.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Patrick said:


> Naruto was a great concept that was horribly developed. Especially towards the end the quality was nonexistent, however as a whole it is still better than a few on your list like FT, Bleach and Freezing.



Exactly. Naruto's problem is its execution of events or the messages in the series.

Nevertheless I am able to enjoy it more than Bleach. FT and Freezing I haven't read before.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 13, 2015)

The Eureka Seven manga was one of the worst I read. HSDK fell kind of off the rails in its last year or two as well.

Naruto is more a matter of wasted potential to me. It started out all right, was going in a good direction and building itself up well and then Kishi squandered it.

Also while Bleach has worse plot, its characters are not so...awful...if he got someone to write the plot true to his vision, and thus handle the pacing and consistency of it, it could be better.


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## Bishamon (Mar 13, 2015)

I agree with some of what you say but I would definitely not go that far at all. Naruto is a masterpiece compared to some of the truly horrendous shit I've read/seen.

I would qualify Naruto as just wasted potential above all else.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Bleach failed due to Kubo not knowing how to use the human characters well enough. Its to the point its like DBZ with the Saiyans overshadowing the human characters.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 13, 2015)

Bender said:


> Bleach failed due to Kubo not knowing how to use the human characters well enough. Its to the point its like DBZ with the Saiyans overshadowing the human characters.



It's more on the plot. His characters are better than Kishimoto's, but the situations he uses them in are not that great.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

If Kishimoto had fixed the pacing of the first two arcs in part II it would have been a fun-ass ride from further on. 

In the third arc it did better, but it was case of bad writing in parts. 

 @Seto Kaiba

Feh. There sizable number of Naruto characters I can enjoy more than Bleach.  That and much times spotlight is wasted on them and they disappoint.


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## Corvida (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Yes it's thematic subversion. The theme of the story going in was hard-work and determination can allow someone to *overcome someone else who is more naturally well endowed*. Sakura loved Sasuke, due to his natural assets; pretty boy, genius, popular, etc... *The hard-work Naruto put into building a real relationship with Sakura *and being there for her on more intimate and downright human level than Sasuke ever was, ultimately not succeeding in shifting Sakura to him from Sasuke, can be seen as hard-work and determination failing to prevail over the natural assets Sasuke had.




 1-LOL ONE -Assuming that Naruto was ANY  less naturally well endowed than Sasuke. This fixation of your with loser Naruto is absurd. specially after part 2 Messiah.

2- LOL 2.-Assuming that by the end of part one any of the things you mentions were the reasons Sakura was in love. with Sasuke, after the deconstruction of the cool genius she endured.

3-LOL 3- Assuming at  ANY POINT in the whole story Naruto was shown really trying to stablish a real romantic relationship with Sakura. He left as soon as Sasuke did and as soon as he came back, all their joint efforts  were ecntered on recovering  him and in the war.

4- FAIL OF ALL FAILS- pretending that Naruto used his "hard work and determination" in getting Sakura-that is the oldest Narsakian  trick in the bag.making Sakura a GOAL.

No

There is no thematic failure when hero doest get what he didnt even wanted or tried to get




> With that said, it does not effect what i'm speaking towards that much by itself, because a single instance of subversion, can be explained in numerous ways. Such as love not being bound something understandable or explainable, or whatever. However when viewed collectively with all the other instances of subversion, it helps to convey the overall feeling of the Naruto manga *destroying it's heart and sole, *which makes me view the series as the worst. Basically you are looking at this single point individually in a vacuum, when it's suppose to be viewed as part of a collective statement on the way the narrative ended up taking shape as a whole.


 Chripo chirp  chirp-Do I read somethig like._Didnt get my pairing therefore this stink[S/I]?




			Your right I don't consider these things to be great enough payoffs for the efforts that Hinata and Sakura put into fostering these relationships, in accordance to what I view as at least initially the overarching theme of the story. If they are big enough pay off for you, than great - that's wonderful - but that's why once again this is a subjective piece of writing to put my opinion to paper (or forum in this case), not a piece of writing intended to state that this is the way things are and everyone who disagrees is wrong.
		
Click to expand...


Is this a shoujo? Do you remember the bang that that handholding caused?






			Yes, I do no think Hinata after all her efforts, never even getting to have a moment where Naruto truly acknowledges and speaks to her about his feelings towards her confession and *the strength of character as well as determination *she exhibited in these instance, is not a great enough pay off for me to feel as if the narrative stayed true enough to it's routes.
		
Click to expand...


Oh but he did-amply
-first when he saved her, then after her stellar sppech-
-that was the prelude to the handhonling and one of the biggest stampedes caused ...after her confession




			Like wise the same applies to Sakura, as an off hand apology and forehead poke is not enough in my mind for Sasuke to truly make up for and reward someone who has continued to work themselves to the bone to try and become a pillar of support for him and continued to have faith and love him despite him outright attempting to murder her. Again if your okay with that, cool, again this is an editorial piece and i'm simply saying I am not.
		
Click to expand...

off hand?- Poor Kakashi had more reasons for complaining, the apology wzas perfectly to the point-the poking, a masterstroke-it called back Sasuke?s most treasured gesture of affection and at the same time made fun of one of Sakura?s child fantasies-her forehead.

Go figure.




			This is a straw-man. I've always enjoyed NaruHina more than NaruSakura, most because Hinata and Naruto are the only character in any of the pairings that I had any sympathy for on a human level. However despite thinking that NaruHina made the best pairing, I thought NarutoSakura was more likely as it would be an easy way for Kishi to drive home this overarching theme that I've been speaking of and in-order to be yet another parallel kishi can draw between Team 7 and other teams, even if it came at the expense of not getting thee most desirable pairing, as I didn't think Kishi cared that much about creating the most desirable pairing, as he did about parallel wanking and the overarching theme of the story. And I don't think anyone should really blame me for that considering how much Kishi wanked the fuck out of parallels in every other facet of the story.
[
		
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That?s Turrin-and I remember prefectly the time when you started to push for the narsak-was the moment when you fell for the worst reasons-you made the mistake of believing getting the prize girl was a Naruto goal and a theme of the story. You fell for the red herring without thinking in the real theme of the manga-Naruto was the paralel destroyer and narsak a red herring.




			Let's say Naruto by the war-arc didn't want Sakura anymore, cool, that means fuck all to the points i'm speaking towards. He still did not acknowledge Hinata's efforts suitably enough for me to feel as if Kishi honored the hard-work and determination Hinata exhibited in building her relationship with Naruto. *He was still crushing on Sakura after the events of Pain arc *and never even spoke to Hinata about her confession, didn't even bring her flowers to thank her for saving his life, nothing. Than in the war all he did was hold her hand, that's as good as it got, which is not enough imo. Again if it's enough for you, great, but this is my opinion.
		
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He wasnt crushing on Sakura after the events of Pain arc, Turrin-the very way he looked at her when she collapsed at the Sasuke news or his reaction at her failfession would have made send you signals

And the handholding was spectacular-Kishi made sure it was.




			All of my flowering fireworks? Are you referring to the single sentence in a nearly 7,000 characters post? Beyond that whether Naruto stopped having romantic interest in Sakura as of the land of iron or not, has nothing to do with my point. It's not Naruto's feelings that I feel need to be immutable, *it's Sakura's feelings remaining unchanged that I feel subverts the overarching theme of the series. *But again it is only one subversion, not the sole point i'm making in this thread, which is again why this point amounted to 1 sentence in a nearly 7,000 characters post.
		
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 That?s even better-as it gets us again to point one-why Sakura HAD to drop her panties for Naruto to show that hard work and determination  paid off when -she-was-never-a-Naruto goal even in the first place,only the girl he had a crush on, a crush that died in part one, when he cared for her in a deeper but not romantic level?




			Naruto did fail. Even if by the end he no longer held romantic feelings for Sakura, he did for most of the series and therefore he failed throughout most of the series to build that relationship into anything more than being one-sided.
		
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  You felt in the Narsal love martyr doubl?  trap again- Naruto didnt fail. as 1-Sakura  wasnt a goal of his  2-he wasnt  interested in building a  romantic  relationship  with Sakura since part one   3-he wasnt  romantically interested in Sakura just  until the end of the series. By the time Sakura confessed for the second time Naruto was all but surprised.




			Sakura didn't fail, but imo the author did not "reward" (not the best word, for this but can't think of a better one at the moment), her enough for her efforts or provide the reader enough of a reason to relish in her success. Same thing with Hinata. But again if you feel differently, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
		
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Of course that I consider the girls rewarded. As this is not a shoujo, Sakura?s blushing  face in 699 and Hinata?s face  with Hima in 700 are more than enough._


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

Bender said:


> The worst is a series that fails its own message and can't be original with its audience.


In my opinion Naruto failed in these regards.



> Okay and this is why I am vehemently and amusingly unable to take your thread seriously. It's because approach to negative things by the canon pairing that you think we're unreliable is what your post is saying.


I don't really follow.



> You're generalizing like hell. This is precisely why I realized my own dipshit mode when I was apart of NaruSaku. I don't care which pairing you're affiliated with, nor am I going to guess but I believe that you're using that as a basis as a piece of what makes tards of this series.


Actually i'm not generalizing at all. I'm speaking about a specific type of NaruHina-fan, not all of them. In-fact I quoted a very specific post when speaking about this. So saying it's a generalization is a misunderstanding of what I wrote.



> have you ever been able to differentiate between love and a crush? They're verses apart in definition.


Actually I would split it three ways; Love, Crush, and Attraction.



> I know it isn't I'm stating that's the reality of the fights in Naruto part II and how it's similar to actual ninja fights and how they happen in most fiction.


But how does that at all relate to the issues I had with Sasuke vs Naruto?



> Before I was going to reply I was going to carefully analyze the post but Zef's quote on his generalization regarding NaruHina immediately eliminated the "legitimacy" of this thread.


And this is the shit, that makes me not take people seriously. Zef quoted one sentence and twisted it to fit an agenda, whether intentionally or unintentionally, to make the entire thread seem as if it was about something it was not. That is biased or troll logic, depending on whether it's intentional or unintentional, as far as i'm concerned.



> What hard-work? Care to provide an instance which Naruto genuinely acts someone other than himself when talking with Sakura on a socializing basis?


What do you mean by "acts someone other than himself"? Are you asking me to provide examples of when Naruto acts on behalf of Sakura, because I could demonstrated a vast amount of instance where that is the case.



> Allow me to start off: When Sakura said she "loved" Naruto over Sasuke he called bullshit. It's at that point Naruto doesn't even care to pursue romantically anymore. In part I it was a promise to her but then it became more than that because Naruto and Sasuke had such a strong connection to each other.


Cool and this relates to what I said how? 



> How were their subversions? If there was anything it was poor execution.


I've explained multiple times why it was a subversion, see my previous posts and opening.



> Before I quote anything else I gotta say man you gotta learn to use periods. I don't like being grammar nazi but you should use them more.


Yeah I'm not going to really bother with Grammar on the forum.



> On Hinata: Following the conclusion of Pain arc and her confession even though Naruto misinterpreted it as "love you and everyone" Naruto has stopped pursuing Sakura romantically.


Wait what? Naruto misinterpreted the confession as "love you and everyone", I really hope that is from the movie, because otherwise that is the biggest fanfic excuse i've ever heard. Naruto is dense, but not that dense; and if that's from the movie than holy fucking retcon batman, if Kishi/studio perriot expects me to buy that shit he's even denser than he's trying to make Naruto out to be. And Naruto did not stop pursuing Sakura (if he ever did in the actual story) because of Hinata's confession, if that's what you implying.



> Also Naruto has never made Sakura of the same height as his goal of becoming hokage. NEVER. She was never at that level.


Cool and this relates to what I said how? 

------

Honestly man I feel like most of your response are talking past me on topics that have nothing to do with what I said or even remotely implied were my thoughts. Please do not use my thread or posts as spring boards to voice your discontent with NaruSakura fanboy/gals view points. 



> I'm also irritated by Turrin's posts on NaruSaku making most messages a subversion but please don't make personal attacks like saying he liked NaruSaku more than NaruHina. I've seen him post in thread I made called "Who are you happier for: Sakura or Hinata" and he said Hinata. He is on NaruHina like he says.


I will at least thank you for acknowledging this.


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## migoreng (Mar 13, 2015)

I feel like a lot of these points have already been made multiple times


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## David (Mar 13, 2015)

The OP's main point always been on my mind, but along with shitty characterization of the 90% of the Useless 11 and Kishimoto's corny tendencies


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## Zef (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Yes it's thematic subversion. The theme of the story going in was hard-work and determination can allow someone to overcome someone else who is more naturally well endowed. *Sakura loved Sasuke, due to his natural assets; pretty boy, genius, popular, etc...* The hard-work Naruto put into building a real relationship with Sakura and being there for her on a much more intimate and downright human level than Sasuke ever was, ultimately not succeeding in shifting Sakura to him from Sasuke, can be seen as hard-work and determination failing to prevail over the natural assets Sasuke had.



Sasuke has mismatched eyes, and one arm.



Not exactly prince charming anymore. I'm pretty sure "natural assets" isn't the reason she prefers Sasuke to Naruto

Unless we're talking about _natural assets_ 

Sasuke's popularity was replaced with infamy after going rouge. In contrast Naruto has become loved by everyone, and is a ladies man in The Last.

Appearance/Popularity isn't why she loves Sasuke.


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## Gunners (Mar 13, 2015)

In this thread, people putting pussy on a pedestal. He saved the village, became adored by the world, saved the world, became Hokage, saved his friend, ended an ongoing blood feud, and started a family of his own; he shows that hardwork doesn't cut it because he didn't end up with Sakura.


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## TRN (Mar 13, 2015)

Gunners said:


> In this thread, people putting pussy on a pedestal. He saved the village, became adored by the world, saved the world, became Hokage, saved his friend, ended an ongoing blood feud, and started a family of his own; he shows that hardwork doesn't cut it because he didn't end up with Sakura.



Just what I was thinking


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## Sora (Mar 13, 2015)

OP believes that if Naruto ended up with Sakura the manga would have been better


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## Corvida (Mar 13, 2015)

Gunners said:


> In this thread, people* putting pussy on a pedestal*. He saved the village, became adored by the world, saved the world, became Hokage, saved his friend, ended an ongoing blood feud, and started a family of his own; he shows that hardwork doesn't cut it because he didn't end up with Sakura.



Best aliteration ever. Nardo  failed the quest for the pink potorro and made her Mom cry, Jiraiya rage and her dad look like an eejit in Heaven


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## Arceus The Great (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> *INTRO*​When the Naruto story ended, I like many other readers felt disappointed and let down by the author, for various reason, but even still in many ways I acted as an apologist for the story. Like many others on this forum, I grew up with this story and discussed it almost religiously here on the forums; so when the story ultimately ended while I certainly voiced my discontent about it's flaws, there was still a part of me that made excuses for the story, such as, pushing all the blame onto the War-Arc and even more precisely the chapters surrounding the penultimate as well as final battles of the series. However after distancing myself from both the Naruto-Manga and largely the Naruto subsections of the forums for several months, i've come to the point where I can admit that this was not a fair assessment. It's not fair, because the disappoint I felt for how the manga ended, wasn't a product of simply a drop in quality for a certain amount of chapters, rather it was due to the story systematically contradicting and unraveling the fundamental theme that both established the story in Part I and captivated my interest in the series in the first place, and it is for that reason that I feel pretty confident in saying that the Naruto-Manga is both thee most disappointing piece of fiction as well as the worst written piece of fiction I've ever read in my entire life.
> 
> "A dropout will beat a genius through hard work."​
> To me these words spoken by Lee, symbolize the heart and soul of this manga. From the readers first step into the Naruto-world the reader is exposed to this theme. The main protagonist is not an amazing fighter, not even for his age, in every sense he is average or even bellow average. In a genre such as shonen, where the Goku archetype, i.E. the genius from the jump, flooded the market, this less than speculatcular main protagonist is what made the story of Naruto stand out. It wasn't a tale about a genius basically achieving his birth right, it was an underdog story, where the protagonist struggles to utilize even the most basic skill, but through working himself nearly to death he is able to master a higher variation of that skill, which would latter come to define his entire fighting style. When Naruto competes against his rival Sasuke, it's this underline theme of the underdog having a chance to prove his efforts that adds emotional weight to their rivalry. When Naruto tells Neji that, _"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be!"_, it adds weight to his words. When we see Naruto defeat someone like Gaara, who had both metaphorically and realistically given in to his inner demon, instead of working hard to forge his own path, it adds weight to that accomplishment. And so on...
> ...



Spot on Turrin!  You sir are truly the most valid and greatest critique of manga that I know. On both here and Youtube!  I agree with 95% of what you said in this post!


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## Lucky7 (Mar 13, 2015)

I could see if Naruto not getting with Sakura was the OP's main point on why the manga sucked, but it literally makes up one sentence of the post and somehow this still got derailed into a pairing thread  

Well, I don't agree with the thread title but in the post it says Naruto is one of the worst, and I can't disagree. . Between the awful pacing, awful development of the plot and characters, and multiple backtracking on the themes of the manga the only saving grace Kishi has is that its more of a problem of wasted potential than an originally bad story structure.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

Corvida said:


> 1-LOL ONE -Assuming that Naruto was ANY  less naturally well endowed than Sasuke. This fixation of your with loser Naruto is absurd. specially after part 2 Messiah.


I agree that Kishimoto subverts this theme in Part II and by the end of the manga Naruto is no longer less naturally well endowed than Sauske in anything besides perhaps looks; in-fact that is the entire point that I was making in the OP. So i'm not speaking towards how things were towards the end, but rather how things were presented initially. Initially Sasuke was more naturally endowed than Naruto; genius, uchiha, pretty-boy, popular, etc...



> Assuming that by the end of part one any of the things you mentions were the reasons Sakura was in love. with Sasuke, after the deconstruction of the cool genius she endured.


It's the only reasons that Kishimoto has ever given.



> Assuming at ANY POINT in the whole story Naruto was shown really trying to stablish a real romantic relationship with Sakura. He left as soon as Sasuke did and as soon as he came back, all their joint efforts were ecntered on recovering him and in the war.


I said building a relationship. Whether that be romantic or otherwise, Naruto was constantly there to support her both emotionally when at her lowest points and being able to protect her in the heat of battle. These are things that Naruto worked much harder to accomplish than Sasuke did.



> FAIL OF ALL FAILS- pretending that Naruto used his "hard work and determination" in getting Sakura-that is the oldest Narsakian trick in the bag.making Sakura a GOAL.


Never said that, so straw-man. What I did say is that thematically Sakura should have acknowledge the hard-work and determination Naruto put into supporting her as qualities that made Naruto a better man than Sasuke, and therefore shifted her feelings. So it's not about Naruto proactively utilizing these things to win Sakura, it's about how Sakura herself should have come to develop deeper romantic feelings for Naruto, due to his actions.



> There is no thematic failure when hero doest get what he didnt even wanted or tried to get


Saying Naruto didn't try to get Sakura, is absolutely silly, when he constantly asked her on dates. He did try. 

But that's not even the point, the point is that hard-work and determination did not outweigh the natural assets that Sasuke possessed in this instance.



> Chripo chirp chirp-Do I read somethig like._Didnt get my pairing therefore this stink[S/I]?_


_
Straw-man, I didn't really have a pairing, but I preferred NaruHina




			Is this a shoujo? Do you remember the bang that that handholding caused?
		
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How much of a bang something causes in Shipping-Wars, does not at all effect my opinion of the extent to which Hinata deserved to be honored for her efforts.




			Oh but he did-amply
-first when he saved her, then after her stellar sppech-
-that was the prelude to the handhonling and one of the biggest stampedes caused ...after her confession
		
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Naruto saves everyone, so that is not enough and nether is a single scene of hand holding. Hinata deserved to have Naruto reciprocate her feelings in a similar manner in which she first expressed them, I.E. a heartfelt confession from Naruto, explaining why his love for her is more genuine and heartfelt than his crush for Sakura.




			off hand?- Poor Kakashi had more reasons for complaining, the apology wzas perfect-the poking, a masterstroke-it called back Sasuke?s most treasured gesture of affection and at the same time made fun of one of Sakura?s child fantasies-her forehead.
		
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For me it was off hand, as it was simply sorry, and the poke was a nice touch i'll admit that, but is it enough of a gesture to make up for attempted murder, imo hell fucking no.




			That?s Turrin-and I remember prefectly the time when you started to push for the narsak-was the momento when you fell for the worst reasons-you made the mistake of believing getting the prize girl was a Naruto goal and a them of the story. You fell for the red herring without thinking in the real theme of the manga-Naruto was the paralel destroyer and narsak a red herring.
		
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I was wrong about NaruSakura being the end game pairing, I fully admit that, but it holds zero relevance here and does not mean I was a NaruSakura-fan.




			He wasnt crushing on Sakura after the events of Pain arc, Turrin-the very way he looked at her when she collapsed at the Sasuke news or his reaction at her failfession would have made send you signals
		
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The Fan-book specifically states that he was and the Sai scene also implies it imo, so i'm going with Fan-book over you, no offense. 




			That?s even better-as it gets us again to point one-why Sakura HAD to drop her panties for Naruto to show that hard work and determination paid off when -she-was-never-a-Naruto goal even in the first place,only the girl he had a crush on, a crush that died in part one, when he cared for her in a deeper but not romantic level?
		
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Again you make this about Naruto, when it's not, it's about Sakura.




			You felt in the Narsal love martyr doubl? trap again- Naruto didnt fail. as 1-Sakura wasnt a goal of his 2-he wasnt interested in building a romantic relationship with Sakura since part one 3-he wasnt romantically interested in Sakura just until the end of the series. By the time Sakura confessed for the second time Naruto was all but surprised.
		
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Sakura was a goal of his, it may not have been top of his list, but he wanted his feelings to be reciprocated throughout most of the manga, as anyone that has a crush on someone would.




			Of course that I consider the girls rewarded. As this is not a shoujo, Sakura?s blushing face in 699 and Hinata?s face with Hima in 700 are more than enough.
		
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And that is your opinion. In my opinion it is nowhere near enough. Yes this isn't a Shoujo, but kishi made romance a huge part of both of these characters story-arcs throughout the narrative. The moment he did that, as well as tied it into the overarching theme of success through hard-work/determination, I expect an equally emotionally impactful and epic pay off, that did not occur her, and instead it was imo relatively swept aside, which to me undermines their efforts, characters, and the overarching theme of the story.



Gunners said:



			In this thread, people putting pussy on a pedestal. He saved the village, became adored by the world, saved the world, became Hokage, saved his friend, ended an ongoing blood feud, and started a family of his own; he shows that hardwork doesn't cut it because he didn't end up with Sakura.
		
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Way to troll, or not even bother to read the opening or any of my posts. Ether way, you are negged and I hardly negged anyone, but you missed the point of all of my sentiments so much I feel it's deserved here. 

Just to clarify though, if Naruto achieved all of the things you listed w/ just hard-work i would be more than satisfied even if he ended up w/ Samui for no reason. My problem is that hard-work/determination never really prevailed in the end, but rather Naruto succeeded because of lineage, freebie or quickie power ups, and destiny. Hard-work/determination failing to pay off or be rewarded aptly in the case of all pairings, not just NaruSakura, is just another example of this, hence it being 1 LINE IN A 7,000 character post speaking towards these other things._


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## Raniero (Mar 13, 2015)

Gunners said:


> In this thread, people putting pussy on a pedestal. He saved the village, became adored by the world, saved the world, became Hokage, saved his friend, ended an ongoing blood feud, and started a family of his own; he shows that hardwork doesn't cut it because he didn't end up with Sakura.


For real.

What's up with the OP objectifying Sakura into some kind of trophy Naruto had to win?


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## Pocalypse (Mar 13, 2015)

From a plot perspective, Naruto went downhill when Naruto was revealed to be the Child of Prophecy, that?s where the hard work and underdog concept went outta the window. After that, literally everything changed. You could even say the Pain arc was good (apart from the shitty ending) if you just view it as an attack on Konoha to capture the Kyuubi but after that, the reveal of the Juubi, Naruto?s destiny, hatred bullshit etc was the bombshell. 

I don?t see Naruto as THE worst fiction I?ve ever read, nah that?s grasping at straws here and just being downright idiotic. The manga itself has had a lot of highs in Part I and early Part II which was decent, but not on the same level as Part I. As others have said, it was wasted potential in Part II, especially the Akatsuki and their original goal. The characters weren?t fleshed out and they died too early. There's other stuff as well like the treatment of Team 7, bonds etc

Kishi bit more than he could chew basically.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 13, 2015)

Raniero said:


> For real.
> 
> What's up with the OP objectifying Sakura into some kind of trophy Naruto had to win?


Since its another way to bash Sasuke I believe. And bash Sakura's character.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 13, 2015)

Lucky7 said:


> I could see if Naruto not getting with Sakura was the OP's main point on why the manga sucked, but it literally makes up one sentence of the post and somehow this still got derailed into a pairing thread
> 
> Well, I don't agree with the thread title but in the post it says Naruto is one of the worst, and I can't disagree. . Between the awful pacing, awful development of the plot and characters, and multiple backtracking on the themes of the manga the only saving grace Kishi has is that its more of a problem of wasted potential than an originally bad story structure.



Honestly it is a silly point, but the problem in even trying to mention it is that it does result in a derailment of the overall matter. People are just going to zero-in on that because it seems like investment in it is what swayed him. On the contrast, I do know at least one person here that flipped their opinion on the story in turn simply because their pairing happened so certain people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.

On that point though, the truth is that it did not matter who he ended up with, because ultimately it was inconsequential to the overall development of the story. There were so many issues that such a matter seems irrelevant.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Sora said:


> OP believes that if Naruto ended up with Sakura the manga would have been better



lol lol lol

I seriously hope you're not serious about that believing that Turrin.


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## Alkaid (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Here's a list of the manga/manwha I am currently reading:
> 
> 1. Tokyo Ghoul, Tokyo Ghoul: Jack, Tokyo Ghoul: Re
> 2. Kamisama no Iutoori, Kamisama no Iutoori Ni
> ...



How can Naruto be the worst piece of fiction you've read with a list like this? A lot of this stuff on your list like Tate no Yuusha and Dungeon Encounter are literally wish fulfillment. On the matter of the themes of the story, I can admit that the whole child of prophecy thing was a bit silly. In hindsight I think it was just a plot device Kishi used to redirect attention from Sasuke back on to Naruto. The only real bullshit power up he got was the Rikudo chakra. Everything else he's had to work for, as opposed to Sasuke who just got power ups because the sharingan became a plot device at that point. You could even use that comparison to show that Naruto surpassed Sasuke with the abilities he worked for, instead of the ones that came naturally to him because of his bloodline. 

Naruto did suffer a slow descent into mediocrity at the end of the Pein arc, but I think part 1 being as amazing as it was and the other good bits in shippuden puts it firmly in "worth a read" territory.


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## Njaa (Mar 13, 2015)

No the theme of hard work being important wasn't thrown away as OP seems to imply. Naruto always had that _specialness_ to him even from the beginning. In the very first chapter he summons hundreds of KB and we subsequently learn just how unique that was, not to mention throughout part one there were multiple references on how unique Naruto was. From his massive chakra reserves to his ability to endure Kuramas chakra. The whole aspect of Naruto _specialness_ was always there, it wasn't as pushed as hard work was but it was definitely there. 

His _specialness_ becoming more important in part 2 also doesn't take away from the hard work aspect of the manga. Naruto worked his ass off to perfect the rasengan, he found a way around the initial weakness in his SM (being unable to fuse with Ma and Pa frog to maintain SM) and he fought Kurama for his KCM before befriending him. I fail to see how Naruto himself somehow undermines the hard work theme.

Even among the side characters, the rookies all are close to/as strong as their parents or teaches at a much younger age. So no the whole hard work theme and the eventual OPness of some of the characters are not mutually exclusive. Did the hard work theme take a backseat? sure but it never went away, it just wasn't as important since hopefully people would be happy to see the payoff as well.


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## Gunners (Mar 13, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Honestly it is a silly point, but the problem in even trying to mention it is that it does result in a derailment of the overall matter. People are just going to zero-in on that because it seems like investment in it is what swayed him. On the contrast, I do know at least one person here that flipped their opinion on the story in turn simply because their pairing happened so certain people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.
> 
> On that point though, the truth is that it did not matter who he ended up with, because ultimately it was inconsequential to the overall development of the story. There were so many issues that such a matter seems irrelevant.



Are you talking about Bender? I remember him being very critical hateful towards the series but now he deep******s it to the point it is somewhat shameful.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 13, 2015)

No way, the hard work theme got shat upon with the concept of Child of Prophecy.



Gunners said:


> Are you talking about Bender? I remember him being very critical hateful towards the series but now he deep******s it to the point it is somewhat shameful.



Damn. I was trying to be subtle.


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## Pocalypse (Mar 13, 2015)

Sora said:


> OP believes that if Naruto ended up with Sakura the manga would have been better



He is a NaruSaku fan and had fits when they didn't end up together so yeah, hard to understand if he's really annoyed at the story or at the pairing not becoming canon because when I was reading his post here...the pairing comment just felt out of place, like I got sneak attacked 



Njaa said:


> No the theme of hard work being important wasn't thrown away as OP seems to imply. Naruto always had that _specialness_ to him even from the beginning. In the very first chapter he summons hundreds of KB and we subsequently learn just how unique that was, not to mention throughout part one there were multiple references on how unique Naruto was. From his massive chakra reserves to his ability to endure Kuramas chakra. The whole aspect of Naruto _specialness_ was always there, it wasn't as pushed as hard work was but it was definitely there.
> 
> His _specialness_ becoming more important in part 2 also doesn't take away from the hard work aspect of the manga. Naruto worked his ass off to perfect the rasengan, he found a way around the initial weakness in his SM (being unable to fuse with Ma and Pa frog to maintain SM) and he fought Kurama for his KCM before befriending him. I fail to see how Naruto himself somehow undermines the hard work theme.
> 
> Even among the side characters, the rookies all are close to/as strong as their parents or teaches at a much younger age. So no the whole hard work theme and the eventual OPness of some of the characters are not mutually exclusive. Did the hard work theme take a backseat? sure but it never went away, it just wasn't as important since hopefully people would be happy to see the payoff as well.



Obtaining Sage Mode and learning to pet the fox becomes irrelevant AFTER you are found out that Naruto is the Child of Prophecy, it doesn't hold the *same weight* as an underdog who would have achieved those merits. You just go...yeah sure, he's the Child of Prophecy and has destiny by his side now, he can do whatever he wants.


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## Raniero (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Never said that, so straw-man. What I did say is that thematically Sakura should have acknowledge the hard-work and determination Naruto put into supporting her as qualities that made Naruto a better man than Sasuke, and therefore shifted her feelings. So it's not about Naruto proactively utilizing these things to win Sakura, it's about how Sakura herself should have come to develop deeper romantic feelings for Naruto, due to his actions.


Sakura _shouldn't_ have done anything. 

But Sakura did acknowledge Naruto's strengths and grew to have a deeper relationship with him. It just stayed platonic.



> Saying Naruto didn't try to get Sakura, is absolutely silly, when he constantly asked her on dates. He did try.


I can count the amount of times Naruto half-heartedly asked Sakura on dates and barely lost sleep over her rejection at the beginning of part 2 on one hand. 



> heartfelt confession from Naruto, explaining why his love for her is more genuine and heartfelt than his crush for Sakura.


Naruto gave his heartfelt confession in the movie and he doesn't need to explain why his love for her is stronger than his love for Sakura because his love for Sakura never went beyond familial. 



> The Fan-book


Stop. 



> Sakura was a goal of his, it may not have been top of his list, but he wanted his feelings to be reciprocated throughout most of the manga, as anyone that has a crush on someone would.


Nah, she wasn't. If she was a goal, he would have stated it and wouldn't have given up in part 1.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 13, 2015)

Everyone knew he was gonna be Minato's kid. That was perfectly fine...but then they just stacked all this shit on him to reinject the fading relevance he had in his own story. Kishimoto completely lost his mind on wanking over the Uchiha he had to throw something just as bad in an attempt to balance things out.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> In my opinion Naruto failed in these regards.



And I sincerely hope you are not pegging that as why the series has many subversions.


I don't really follow.




> Actually i'm not generalizing at all. I'm speaking about a specific type of NaruHina-fan, not all of them. In-fact I quoted a very specific post when speaking about this. So saying it's a generalization is a misunderstanding of what I wrote.



Dude you are generalizing. I was a NaruSaku fan before I was a NaruHina fan and I even realized that Naruto no longer felt attraction to Sakura after kage summit arc.



> Actually I would split it three ways; Love, Crush, and Attraction.



Yeah, what Sakura felt towards Sasuke was originally fangirlishness and was love from then on.  Naruto always related Sakura to competing with Sasuke. 




> But how does that at all relate to the issues I had with Sasuke vs Naruto?



It relates in the manner that most ninjas fight opponents despite how they are in condition. This is the same for fights in Naruto. Even the most highly anticipated battles may not be as much evenly paced battle you think it will be.




> And this is the shit, that makes me not take people seriously. Zef quoted one sentence and twisted it to fit an agenda, whether intentionally or unintentionally, to make the entire thread seem as if it was about something it was not. That is biased or troll logic, depending on whether it's intentional or unintentional, as far as i'm concerned.



So you can't take most people here seriously because of what Zef quoted? No offense bro but we've mostly been discussing pairing than general plot points.




> What do you mean by "acts someone other than himself"? Are you asking me to provide examples of when Naruto acts on behalf of Sakura, because I could demonstrated a vast amount of instance where that is the case.



Then please do. Let me size up the challenge since you think this is too easy. List me an example of Naruto getting Sakura to love him in same category as being Hokage. 


^

Last pairing thing I want to discuss after that bring out something  else you see as why you believe Naruto is "worst piece of fiction ever".


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Starting now, if most arguments calling Naruto "the worst piece of fiction ever" don't go past shipping following this page then this thread is officially going to be considered nothing but another pairing thread to me.


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## Njaa (Mar 13, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Everyone knew he was gonna be Minato's kid. That was perfectly fine..*.but then they just stacked all this shit on him to reinject the fading relevance he had in his own story.* Kishimoto completely lost his mind on wanking over the Uchiha he had to throw something just as bad in an attempt to balance things out.



The bolded are exactly my thoughts on the whole child of prophecy shtick. I initially hated that whole CoP thing but now that the manga is over and looking back over it, I'm just indifferent to it. It never had plot relevance beyond Nardo wanking from other chars and it never actually affected Naruto as a character, it was just tacked on and was never needed.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


> He is a NaruSaku fan and had fits when they didn't end up together so yeah, hard to understand if he's really annoyed at the story or at the pairing not becoming canon because when I was reading his post here...the pairing comment just felt out of place, like I got sneak attacked
> .


Actually I remember you being a NaruSakura fan who flipped out when it didn't happen.


*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 



Lies are so easy to make up


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## babaGAReeb (Mar 13, 2015)

mind explaining how shitty hentai is better than nardo?


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

babaGAReeb said:


> mind explaining how shitty hentai is better than nardo?



I'm fucking around. 


@Turrin

waiting for response bro.


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## babaGAReeb (Mar 13, 2015)

not you brah, im asking OP


----------



## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

Bender said:


> And I sincerely hope you are not pegging that as why the series has many subversions.


The reasons I peg the series as subverting it's overarching theme are clearly out line in the OP, if you would just get passed a single sentence, which doesn't even hold the meaning people are trying to attach to it.



> Dude you are generalizing. I was a NaruSaku fan before I was a NaruHina fan and I even realized that Naruto no longer felt attraction to Sakura after kage summit arc.


Again I wasn't speaking about you, but Zef...however if you want to be included in that grouping so much your building a case for yourself with these strawmen.



> Yeah, what Sakura felt towards Sasuke was originally fangirlishness and was love from then on. Naruto always related Sakura to competing with Sasuke.


I agree, but I don't see where the evolution took place beyond that.



> It relates in the manner that most ninjas fight opponents despite how they are in condition. This is the same for fights in Naruto. Even the most highly anticipated battles m*ay not be as much evenly paced battle you think it will be*.


FOR THE FIFTH TIME THIS WAS NOT MY ISSUE WITH THE FIGHT!

I don't know how to say it any clearer than that.



> So you can't take most people here seriously because of what Zef quoted? No offense bro but we've mostly been discussing pairing than general plot points.


Anyone who is acting the same way as Zef, I do not take seriously. That applies to some others in the thread, but there are plenty it does not apply to. Still on the fence about you, mostly due to the fact that you insist on categorizing yourself with Zef and using so many straw-man arguments



> Then please do. Let me size up the challenge since you think this is too easy. List me an example of Naruto getting Sakura to love him in same category as being Hokage.


Cool another straw-man. When did I say his crush on Sakura ever ranked in the same category as being Hokage. I said he has acted on the behalf of Sakura many times, which is totally different from what your saying here.



> Last pairing thing I want to discuss after that bring out something else you see as why you believe Naruto is "worst piece of fiction ever".


Try actually reading the other 6,700 characters of my opening post.



babaGAReeb said:


> mind explaining how shitty hentai is better than nardo?


I fail to see the difference between Hentai and the new Naruto spin off, about Baruto and Salad. Considering that entire series is obviously a metaphor for Sasuke and Naruto's yaoi love enacted vicariously through their children.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

@Baba

Ah. lol lol

Srsly that shit he lookin is pretty hentai?


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## Corvida (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I agree that Kishimoto subverts this theme in Part II and by the end of the manga Naruto is no longer less naturally well endowed than Sauske in anything besides perhaps looks; in-fact that is the entire point that I was making in the OP. So i'm not speaking towards how things were towards the end, but rather how things were presented initially. Initially Sasuke was more naturally endowed than Naruto; genius, uchiha, pretty-boy, popular, etc...



But even at the end of part one-PART ONE- that was not the case at all.Respectng the two boys-Sakura has realized Naruto?s strenght and talent And her image of Sasuke has given another 180.



> It's the only reasons that Kishimoto has ever given.


 

Because it?s not Sakura?s story-we see her fall in love during part 1 from her school girl crush  stage and  it?s all we need to know.



> I said building a relationship. Whether that be romantic or otherwise, Naruto was constantly there to support her both emotionally when at her lowest points and being able to protect her in the heat of battle. These are things that Naruto worked much harder to accomplish than Sasuke did.



You mean-he left to train for two years ahd half. or he chased Sasuke relentelessly along with Sakura during part 2?  I dodnt see Naruto "working hard", only two friends  *supporting each other* in the never ending part 2 Sasuke chase.



> [
> 
> Never said that, so straw-man. What I did say is that thematically Sakura* should have *acknowledge the hard-work and determination Naruto put into supporting her as qualities that made Naruto a better man than Sasuke, and therefore shifted her feelings. So it's not about Naruto proactively utilizing these things to win Sakura, it's about how Sakura herself *should hav*e come to d*evelop deeper romantic f*eelings for Naruto, due to his actions.



Are you  reading what are you writing?  Are you accusing Sakura now of not following the   good boy gets the girlscript, as* she tried to do during the failfession*-the biggest fuck you Kishi gave to this idea? How many times  do I have to repeat you that Sakura was not a goal,  was a false love interest and never a thing to be won, proactively or not? That?s  why I repeated again and again that the failfession exposed narsak for what it was iT was Kishi mocking the clich? and affirming Naruto saw through it thank you very much




> [
> Saying Naruto didn't try to get Sakura, is absolutely silly, when he constantly asked her on dates. He did try.



Seriosly? Never



> But that's not even the point, the point is that hard-work and determination did not outweigh the natural assets that Sasuke possessed in this instance.
> [



Both Naruto and Sasuke shared similar natural assets since the beginning.-one was an Uchiha, other the Kyubbi container-.Sakura was not the prize to snatch from the rival.



> [
> 
> Straw-man, I didn't really have a pairing, but I preferred NaruHina


I dont care for your caring but for your sure betting-rememeber I remember when you made the decission-- you mistook Sakura for a goal and "getting the girl from the rival" as a thematic essential in this story, when  it  never was.

Naruto never tried or wanted, point blank.



> How much of a bang something causes in Shipping-Wars, does not at all effect my opinion of the extent to which Hinata deserved to be honored for her efforts.



LOL.the only  thing it shows it?s how you really like shojo.The bang is a proof of how big the thing was.




> Naruto saves everyone, so that is not enough and nether is a single scene of hand holding. Hinata deserved to have Naruto reciprocate her feelings in a similar manner in which she first expressed them, I.E. a heartfelt confession from Naruto, explaining why his love for her is more genuine and heartfelt than his crush for Sakura.



He didtn only save, remember it-and before the hand holding it wasnt his turn to speak, but to flip, make his grnad gesture squeeze  included and recognize Hinata for being by his side.

The thing was SO BIG that almost everyone saw the thing as fait accompli.



> For me it was off hand, as it was simply sorry, and the poke was a nice touch i'll admit that, but is it enough of a gesture to make up for attempted murder, imo hell fucking no.



Obviosly. that?s why it comes after s hort time skip and before another-and sorry, but Sasuke?s face  in that chapter is much more than an off hand.-poor Kakshi excepted.



> I was wrong about NaruSakura being the end game pairing, I fully admit that, but it holds zero relevance here and does not mean I was a NaruSakura-fan.



That?s what make it worse-the thematic relevance you give it


> The Fan-book specifically states that he was and the Sai scene also implies it imo, so i'm going with Fan-book over you, no offense.
> [



Fan books are filler  shit  and the Sai flashback was-like everything serious relating Naruto?s feelings-a vague implication.Naruto was always purposedly vague in part 2 when not joking-see his farewell to dad- for a reason.



> Again you make this about Naruto, when it's not, it's about Sakura.



Exactly. It is about Sakura. As the manga hero is Naruto and Sakura was never a goal of his, she has not contractual obligation to open her legs for him.


> Sakura was a goal of his, it may not have been top of his list, but he wanted his feelings to be reciprocated throughout most of the manga, as anyone that has a crush on someone would.



No, she wasnt a goal-his goal was hokagedom and recognition-true love and family came when he was ready.
Most of the manga? The moment he saw Sakura was serious he stepped out,and that was part one-the rest is red herring.


> And that is your opinion. In my opinion it is nowhere near enough. Yes this isn't a Shoujo, but kishi made romance a huge part of both of these characters story-arcs throughout the narrative. The moment he did that, as well as tied it into the overarching theme of success through hard-work/determination, I expect an equally emotionally impactful and epic pay off, that did not occur her, and instead it was imo relatively swept aside, which to me undermines their efforts, characters, and the overarching theme of the story.
> [


PFFF-you?re messing it-yes, Kishi made romance  a big part  of both Sakura and Hinata?s aspiration-but you are forgetting that both Sakura and Hinata are not  either Naruto, the Messiah, or Sasuke, the Antichrist. You cannot ecpect to see little disney bird singing for chapters after the karmic bros ended their Duel of the fates, sorry., Turrin.




> Just to clarify though, if Naruto achieved all of the things you listed w/ just hard-work i would be more than satisfied even if he ended up w/ Samui for no reason. My problem is that hard-work/determination never really prevailed in the end, but rather Naruto succeeded because of lineage, freebie or quickie power ups, and destiny. Hard-work/determination failing to pay off or be rewarded aptly in the case of all pairings, not just NaruSakura, is just another example of this, hence it being 1 LINE IN A 7,000 character post speaking towards these other things.



No Turrin appllying it to pairings is specially unfortunate. In all cases.


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## Alkaid (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Actually I remember you being a NaruSakura fan who flipped out when it didn't happen.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Why do you consider Tate no Yuusha and Danmachi superior to Naruto? Both of those series are shameless wish fulfillment. Do you put the both of them above Naruto because you can comfortably insert yourself as the main character, but you can't do that with Naruto because he didn't get the girl thus your fantasy is ruined?


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## jemmathepintobean (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Here's a list of the manga/manwha I am currently reading:
> 
> 1. Tokyo Ghoul, Tokyo Ghoul: Jack, Tokyo Ghoul: Re
> 2. Kamisama no Iutoori, Kamisama no Iutoori Ni
> ...



I have issues with those particular mangas, but it's really hard to take you seriously if you believe Freezing is better than Naruto...

And I'm fellow dedicated  FT reader and I have problems and complaints...

I'm saying Naruto was wasted potential,  and there were plot holes with a bit of ass pulls, but calling it the worst is a bit extreme...

For me, Naruto is a lot better than FT and Bleach, and I won't even compare it to Freezing because that's an insult. Naruto is on par with how I feel about Dragon Ball...I'm meh about it, but won't hesitate to re-read/watch the manga/anime (except anything after the Sasuke retrieval arc and shippuden).


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## Zef (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Actually I remember you being a NaruSakura fan who flipped out when it didn't happen.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Not sure if you're a NS fan or not, but I do recall you laughing at predictions of NH, and SS being canon.

Followed by confusion as to why/how they became canon.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 13, 2015)

Berserk is undoubtedly better than Naruto..


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## Lucky7 (Mar 13, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Honestly it is a silly point, but the problem in even trying to mention it is that it does result in a derailment of the overall matter. People are just going to zero-in on that because it seems like investment in it is what swayed him. On the contrast, I do know at least one person here that flipped their opinion on the story in turn simply because their pairing happened so certain people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.
> 
> On that point though, the truth is that it did not matter who he ended up with, because ultimately it was inconsequential to the overall development of the story. There were so many issues that such a matter seems irrelevant.


I understand to an extent, but it wasn't even a damn paragraph topic. Hell, it was only used as an example (albeit a pretty invalid one) of how the manga's themes backtracked. Not to mention that immediately after it, he acknowledges the ultimate pairings as another example of this, rather than denying them or even outrightly critisizing the pairings or characters. Even if it was what swayed him, it wasn't even a main point in the post and changing his mind still doesn't make the other points completely unrelated to pairings irrelevant. 

But yeah, the pairings are a small matter in the ocean of fuck ups in the Naruto manga.  



Njaa said:


> No the theme of hard work being important wasn't thrown away as OP seems to imply. Naruto always had that _specialness_ to him even from the beginning. In the very first chapter he summons hundreds of KB and we subsequently learn just how unique that was, not to mention throughout part one there were multiple references on how unique Naruto was. From his massive chakra reserves to his ability to endure Kuramas chakra. The whole aspect of Naruto _specialness_ was always there, it wasn't as pushed as hard work was but it was definitely there.
> 
> His _specialness_ becoming more important in part 2 also doesn't take away from the hard work aspect of the manga. Naruto worked his ass off to perfect the rasengan, he found a way around the initial weakness in his SM (being unable to fuse with Ma and Pa frog to maintain SM) and he fought Kurama for his KCM before befriending him. I fail to see how Naruto himself somehow undermines the hard work theme.
> 
> Even among the side characters, the rookies all are close to/as strong as their parents or teaches at a much younger age. So no the whole hard work theme and the eventual OPness of some of the characters are not mutually exclusive. Did the hard work theme take a backseat? sure but it never went away, it just wasn't as important since hopefully people would be happy to see the payoff as well.


What work? This is really what makes the prophecy so bad. The hard work theme wasn't even completely eradicated by Child of Prophecy. It was eradicated by Naruto never having to face any real obstacles that OP asspull powerups can't fix

Naruto hasn't worked for anything after the Pein Arc.  Everyone just "comes around" and sees what a "great, influential person he is", oftentimes with little reason. Naruto is supposed to bring peace and help the people of the world understand each other and work past their hatred? What has he done to help with that? Nothing. All of a sudden these people from countries that have been warring with each other since their creation and whose animosity, distrust, and hatred for each other dissolves with no problems except that slight altercation before Gaara's speech. Naruto never had an idea of how he was going to unify the shinobi nations. Conveniently, all the Kage are best buds now so there won't be any fighting in the future.

Or his relationship with Kurama. Kurama is a centuries old, all powerful, chakra demon who despised all of humanity. He has seen humanity at it's very worst. He has certainly seen people like Naruto, boastful and idealistic who want to change the world. In this respect, Kurama hadn't and rightfully shouldn't have seen anything special about him. He certainly shouldn't have so easily trusted him when Naruto had previously attacked him and stolen the use of his power before Naruto bothered to consider the him as something other than a demon. But once again, Naruto reuses some empty promise speech and Kurama is suddenly his pet. Naruto hasn't proven anything, nor has he said anything substantial, just vague, good guy talk. It comes off as being almost completely undeserved.

Naruto isn't challenged anymore. He doesn't have to overcome obstacles. He is never forced to re-evaluate his thinking. Naruto stays the same, yet things change for the better. The story is literally bending so that Naruto never has to face anything that doesn't have an obvious solution or a black-and-white moral ground. That's why people are so annoyed with Naruto being a child of prophecy. He doesn't change or actually do anything, yet everything is changing for him. Yeah he fought against Obito and Madara, but even then he didn't defeat them, and probably won't without somebody's help (probably Sasuke's). It really does come off as everything working out for Naruto, while he basically stays static and makes a lot of speeches.

When you give a character big goal like leading a world that runs on violence and hatred to peace and then dub him the Child of Prophecy, people's expectations get high. Like the OP aluded to, Peace being attained and Naruto's subsequent Hokageship feels so empty with the way Kishi failed to develop it. I like Naruto, but if feels less like result of hardwork and a journey of growth and development throughout the manga and more like he just got lucky . Lucky to be born and grew up in an era of no war in the time period that he did. Lucky that the current government leaders were miraculously able to get along. Lucky that everyone had a common enemy to focus on instead of each other. Lucky to get all these convenient powerups whenever he's in a pinch. Lucky that everyone can all of a sudden get along after a five minute speech from Gaara. Lucky, lucky, lucky.


 So yeah, a huge problem with Kishi fucking up wiht his themes is that it ultimately started to fuck with the depth and development of his story .


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## jemmathepintobean (Mar 13, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Berserk is undoubtedly better than Naruto..



Okay, your opinion. To me, Naruto is better. 

HxH, Breaker, and Vagabond is tied for first palce, though. IMO.


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## Raniero (Mar 13, 2015)

jemmathepintobean said:


> Okay, your opinion. To me, Naruto is better.


How in the world can anybody with sense think Naruto is better than _Berserk_?

That shit shouldn't even be an opinion



Turrin said:


> I fail to see the difference between Hentai and the new Naruto spin off, about Baruto and Salad. Considering that entire series is obviously a metaphor for Sasuke and Naruto's yaoi love enacted vicariously through their children.


Bruh...


----------



## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

Corvida said:


> But even at the end of part one-PART ONE- that was not the case at all.Respectng the two boys-Sakura has realized Naruto?s strenght and talent And her image of Sasuke has given another 180.


Sakura began respect Naruto due to his determination and hard-work, not because he was naturally gifted in various respects.



> Because it?s not Sakura?s story-we see her fall in love during part 1 from her school girl crush stage and it?s all we need to know.


Sakura is the main herion and her entire story is bent around romance, excuse me if i'd like some depth to that.



> You mean-he left to train for two years ahd half. or he chased Sasuke relentelessly along with Sakura during part 2? I dodnt see Naruto "working hard", only two friends supporting each other in the never ending part 2 Sasuke chase.


How is Naruto's training in Part I and over the time-skip not working hard?



> Are you reading what are you writing? Are you accusing Sakura now of not following the good boy gets the girlscript, as she tried to do during the failfession-the biggest fuck you Kishi gave to this idea? How many times do I have to repeat you that Sakura was not a goal, was a false love interest and never a thing to be won, proactively or not? That?s why I repeated again and again that the failfession exposed narsak for what it was iT was Kishi mocking the clich? and affirming Naruto saw through it thank you very much


I'm not accusing Sakura of anything. I'm saying she could have changed her feelings to be with the person with qualities of hard-work and determination. She did not choose to do so and instead remained fixed in her choice of the genius pretty boy. Hard-work and determination did not prove more valuable to Sakura than the whole Genius pretty boy stick. So in this instance hard-work/determination did not outweigh natural endowments. That is all i'm saying



> Seriosly? Never


I'm 90% positive that he did



> Both Naruto and Sasuke shared similar natural assets since the beginning.-one was an Uchiha, other the Kyubbi container-.Sakura was not the prize to snatch from the rival.


How is being a genius of the Uchiha clan versus having a sentient spirit of darkness inside oneself similar. Like really, come on now.



> I dont care for your caring but for your sure betting-rememeber I remember when you made the decission-- you mistook Sakura for a goal and "getting the girl from the rival" as a thematic essential in this story, when it never was


Well than your mis-remembering, because I never said any of those things.



> LOL.the only thing it shows it?s how you really like shojo.The bang is a proof of how big the thing was.


And it was a big thing to the main heroins characters



> He didtn only save, remember it-and before the hand holding it wasnt his turn to speak, but to flip, make his grnad gesture squeeze included and recognize Hinata for being by his side.


I'm just going to have to say we'll have to agree to disagree on this, because I just don't see it as at the level it should have been.



> Obviosly. that?s why it comes after s hort time skip and before another-and sorry, but Sasuke?s face in that chapter is much more than an off hand.-poor Kakshi excepted.


Again i'll have to say agree to disagree.



> That?s what make it worse-the thematic relevance you give it


It does have thematic relevance.



> Fan books are filler shit and the Sai flashback was-like everything serious relating Naruto?s feelings-a vague implication.Naruto was always purposedly vague in part 2 when not joking-see his farewell to dad- for a reason.


Again Fanbook > You imo. So we'll have to agree to disagree on this to.



> Exactly. It is about Sakura. As the manga hero is Naruto and Sakura was never a goal of his, she has not contractual obligation to open her legs for him.


Which again misses the point I was making. It's not about obligation, it's about what Sakura values, and in the end she valued the man exhibiting hard-work and determination less than the genius, which subverts the overarching theme. Again Sakura isn't obligated to do anything, but she is subverting the theme by not doing it.



> No, she wasnt a goal-his goal was hokagedom and recognition-true love and family came when he was ready.
> Most of the manga? The moment he saw Sakura was serious he stepped out,and that was part one-the rest is red herring.


Hokagedom and recognition being more important goals does not mean that Naruto didn't want his feelings reciprocated, which is just silly imo.



> PFFF-you?re messing it-yes, Kishi made romance a big part of both Sakura and Hinata?s aspiration-but you are forgetting that both Sakura and Hinata are not either Naruto, the Messiah, or Sasuke, the Antichrist. You cannot ecpect to see little disney bird singing for chapters after the karmic bros ended their Duel of the fates, sorry., Turrin.


I expect what I expect, you expect something different, we'll have to agree to disagree.



> No Turrin appllying it to pairings is specially unfortunate. In all cases.


The main overarching theme should be evaluated on all things, including pairings imo. If you disagree than cool, but it doesn't effect the way I view things.



Alkaid said:


> Why do you consider Tate no Yuusha and Danmachi superior to Naruto? Both of those series are shameless wish fulfillment. Do you put the both of them above Naruto because you can comfortably insert yourself as the main character, but you can't do that with Naruto because he didn't get the girl thus your fantasy is ruined?


Actually I consider them better because so far they haven't committed narrative suicide in the way Naruto did. Whether they will stay better by the end of the series, I don't know, because obviously they are far from ending. And if you knew anything about me or followed anything i've written, Harem BS is one of my least favorite troupes in Manga/Anime/Manwa. So I don't at all read those series for their Harem elements, in-fact they proactively annoy the shit out of me. I enjoy those stories for their more creative elements,plots and characters, the same reason I enjoyed Naruto when I began reading it. 

Also FYI, my self insert character would be the Shikkamaru type, who did get the girl and arguably the best girl in that generation.


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## Gunners (Mar 13, 2015)

I think my biggest issue with the series occurred just after the Pein arc. At that point in time, the series had its ups and down but for the most part it was on the right track. After that point the series should have been about developing Sasuke and Naruto's differing ideologies and having them clash. Naruto's maturity should have increased to the point that he had justifiable relevance on a political stage, and Sasuke's ideology should have been centred on uniting and protecting those scorned by the ninja world (A good throw back would be the introduction of clans like Haku's). 

It would have been the appropriate way of taking their rivalry to the next stage. Instead he used the Indra and Ashura's, Harashima and Madara reincarnation business. The moment those past characters were introduced, it became acceptable for Kishimoto to skate over and rush Naruto and Sasuke's achievements.


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## Iwanko (Mar 13, 2015)

I can't take OP seryously after he said that FT, Bleach and KHR are better than Naruto.


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## babaGAReeb (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I fail to see the difference between Hentai and the new Naruto spin off, about Baruto and Salad. Considering that entire series is obviously a metaphor for Sasuke and Naruto's yaoi love enacted vicariously through their children.


how the fuck is the nardo spin off comparable to hentai 

okay its quite clear you are just butthurt cause your ship never happened, so much that you start to consider even trash hentais better than nardo


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## Alkaid (Mar 13, 2015)

Lucky7 said:


> IWhat work? This is really what makes the prophecy so bad. The hard work theme wasn't even completely eradicated by Child of Prophecy. It was eradicated by Naruto never having to face any real obstacles that OP asspull powerups can't fix



In what manner was the Kurama power up an asspull? It has been hinted at for years that he eventually make use of and master the power of Kurama. It wasn't free either, there were a dozen or so chapters dedicated to it.



Lucky7 said:


> INaruto hasn't worked for anything after the Pein Arc.



Refer to previous point



Lucky7 said:


> IEveryone just "comes around" and sees what a "great, influential person he is", oftentimes with little reason. Naruto is supposed to bring peace and help the people of the world understand each other and work past their hatred? What has he done to help with that? Nothing. All of a sudden these people from countries that have been warring with each other since their creation and whose animosity, distrust, and hatred for each other dissolves with no problems except that slight altercation before Gaara's speech. Naruto never had an idea of how he was going to unify the shinobi nations. Conveniently, all the Kage are best buds now so there won't be any fighting in the future.



They don't just "come around." He helps people work past their hatred by helping them let go and see that there are things beyond it, I.E Gaara and Sasuke. On the manner of the countries and their alliance, that was a necessity, period. As leaders the kages understood it was team up or die. 



Lucky7 said:


> Or his relationship with Kurama. Kurama is a centuries old, all powerful, chakra demon who despised all of humanity. He has seen humanity at it's very worst. He has certainly seen people like Naruto, boastful and idealistic who want to change the world. In this respect, Kurama hadn't and rightfully shouldn't have seen anything special about him.



Absolutely false. He may have seen people like Naruto, but they certainly didn't have results like he did. He had seen Naruto grow up and not give into his hatred, he practices what he preaches. Look at his altercation with Nagato. He was willing to forgive Nagato for killing Jiraiya to end the cycle of hatred instead of taking vengeance. Rising above human nature.



Lucky7 said:


> He certainly shouldn't have so easily trusted him when Naruto had previously attacked him and stolen the use of his power before Naruto bothered to consider the him as something other than a demon



He never bothered to talk to Naruto and try and change his view either.



Lucky7 said:


> Naruto isn't challenged anymore. He doesn't have to overcome obstacles. He is never forced to re-evaluate his thinking. Naruto stays the same, yet things change for the better.



Why should he have had to re-evaluate his thinking? He's a determinator. He sticks to his guns and doesn't change his philosophy to suit the situation. No school of thought is perfect, but Naruto thinks his is pretty good considering it's dragged people back to the light from way off the deep end.



Lucky7 said:


> The story is literally bending so that Naruto never has to face anything that doesn't have an obvious solution or a black-and-white moral ground. That's why people are so annoyed with Naruto being a child of prophecy.



It's not that the story is bending for Naruto, it's that he refuses to bend. The people annoyed with the child of prophecy are silly because it was just a plot device used to redirect attention from Sasuke to Naruto. It's mentioned during the Pein arc, and not mentioned again.




Lucky7 said:


> He doesn't change or actually do anything, yet everything is changing for him. Yeah he fought against Obito and Madara, but even then he didn't defeat them, and probably won't without somebody's help (probably Sasuke's). It really does come off as everything working out for Naruto, while he basically stays static and makes a lot of speeches.



What's wrong with his friends fighting with him? Naruto is big on camaraderie. There is absolutely nothing wrong with static characters. While it may be interesting to see a main character change during a story, there is nothing wrong with seeing one stick to his guns.



Lucky7 said:


> When you give a character big goal like leading a world that runs on violence and hatred to peace and then dub him the Child of Prophecy, people's expectations get high. Like the OP aluded to, Peace being attained and Naruto's subsequent Hokageship feels so empty with the way Kishi failed to develop it. I like Naruto, but if feels less like result of hardwork and a journey of growth and development throughout the manga and more like he just got lucky . Lucky to be born and grew up in an era of no war in the time period that he did. Lucky that the current government leaders were miraculously able to get along. Lucky that everyone had a common enemy to focus on instead of each other. Lucky to get all these convenient powerups whenever he's in a pinch. Lucky that everyone can all of a sudden get along after a five minute speech from Gaara. Lucky, lucky, lucky.
> 
> 
> So yeah, a huge problem with Kishi fucking up wiht his themes is that it ultimately started to fuck with the depth and development of his story .



I think you're expecting to much from a shonen.


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## TRN (Mar 13, 2015)

wait.........





...


Hentai better than Naruto ....	

......


....


..


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Berserk is undoubtedly better than Naruto..



Don't even mention Berserk in the same breath as Naruto. Too much difference atmosphere between the two to compare. Fucking hell, the art styles are even wholly different.  The mangaka of Berserk is like a painter compared to Kishi. 

Moreover, the series is Seinen. Naruto is not.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

@Lucky7
Thank you, It's people like you that gives me hope for this subforum. Just wanted you to know that.



babaGAReeb said:


> how the fuck is the nardo spin off comparable to hentai
> 
> okay its quite clear you are just butthurt cause your ship never happened, so much that you start to consider even trash hentais better than nardo



Wow your like so whitty and original and stuff


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 13, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> In what manner was the Kurama power up an asspull? It has been hinted at for years that he eventually make use of and master the power of Kurama. It wasn't free either, there were a dozen or so chapters dedicated to it.
> 
> Refer to previous point
> 
> They don't just "come around." He helps people work past their hatred by helping them let go and see that there are things beyond it, I.E Gaara and Sasuke. On the manner of the countries and their alliance, that was a necessity, period. As leaders the kages understood it was team up or die.



Kishimoto, ad nauseum, repeated the same formula with Zabuza and Gaara that he did with just about every other antagonist Naruto encountered, including Obito worst of all. Many times they did just come around, because Naruto never had any real answer to their issues, or their hatred. It was they were wrong because they were wrong, Naruto was right because he was right, and they had to believe in him because.



> Absolutely false. He may have seen people like Naruto, but they certainly didn't have results like he did. He had seen Naruto grow up and not give into his hatred, he practices what he preaches. Look at his altercation with Nagato. He was willing to forgive Nagato for killing Jiraiya to end the cycle of hatred instead of taking vengeance. Rising above human nature.
> 
> He never bothered to talk to Naruto and try and change his view either.
> 
> Why should he have had to re-evaluate his thinking? He's a determinator. He sticks to his guns and doesn't change his philosophy to suit the situation. No school of thought is perfect, but Naruto thinks his is pretty good considering it's dragged people back to the light from way off the deep end.



Incorrect. Naruto went so low as to subtly threaten the Raikage on what would happen if he were to kill Sasuke. He turned what he had supposedly learned from Nagato on its head by using it to shield Sasuke from consequences of his own actions. As a matter of fact, a big issue related the matter is that the concept of responsibility for one's own actions as an individual went out the window. Naruto became inhuman, and a bit hypocritical. Particularly the former once Obito's time came around.

Naruto didn't do much on that. He just expected people to believe in him because he'll find the answers eventually. He had no real solutions or alternatives. It was literally a matter of 'might makes right' with him more often than not. Sure, many of the antagonists were irrational but that does not automatically mean Naruto himself had substance in his retorts. 



> It's not that the story is bending for Naruto, it's that he refuses to bend. The people annoyed with the child of prophecy are silly because it was just a plot device used to redirect attention from Sasuke to Naruto. It's mentioned during the Pein arc, and not mentioned again.



The two are not mutually exclusive. The story did as well bend for Naruto, that was what is the worst thing about the Child of Prophecy angle is that it basically cemented things will work out as they did for Naruto just because.

Also this is incorrect it was mentioned multiple times after that, most notably in his reasoning to Ei. 



> What's wrong with his friends fighting with him? Naruto is big on camaraderie. There is absolutely nothing wrong with static characters. While it may be interesting to see a main character change during a story, there is nothing wrong with seeing one stick to his guns.



There is everything wrong with a static character in a narrative where change is necessary, as in the case with Naruto and the concepts Kishimoto chose to touch upon in the story.


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## Corvida (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Sakura began respect Naruto due to his determination and hard-work, not because he was naturally gifted in various respects.




Therefore he saw him as gifted, contrary of the natural pest and loser good for nothing  she tought before she knew him-she even knew  Naruto had beaten SHUKAKU.-She also tought Sasuke was an infallible prince charming and Jeebus.!



> Sakura is the main herion and her entire story is bent around romance, excuse me if i'd like some depth to that.



Kishi would never center his manga around romance-and Sakura?s role got smaller and smaller a soon as the rookies appeared and the story took off from team seven.



> How is Naruto's training in Part I and over the time-skip not working hard?



In besting Sasuke first and in saving him secondly.Not in winning Sakura,never specially as he saw she was serious. in her love.



> [
> I'm not accusing Sakura of anything. I'm saying she could have changed her feelings to be with the person with qualities of hard-work and determination. She did not choose to do so and instead remained fixed in her choice of the genius pretty boy. Hard-work and determination did not prove more valuable to Sakura than the whole Genius pretty boy stick. So in this instance hard-work/determination did not outweigh natural endowments. That is all i'm saying


 The, firstly you ARE accusing Sakura-of not following her pize role-and secondly.accusing her  enduring all she did during part one...... when pretty boy genius prince charming got deconstructed in front of her eyes......to fall for the autumn skies  routine and fall  for tall blond  beloved messiah? Are you seriously believing that the Sakura of chapter 181 was the Sakura of chapter 4  that only had "natural endowments" in her head...? And part 2 Sakura, that cudnt force herself to love the golden Messiah?




> I'm 90% positive that he did



Never----except in a Yuka fiuller episode.



> How is being a genius of the Uchiha clan versus having a sentient spirit of darkness inside oneself similar. Like really, come on now.



In terms  of specialness? Very handy-see his battle with Haku,  or with Neji , or with Sasuke- that pierced lung-, even in part one. As opposed to be curse sealed by Orochimaru or come from a clan prone to awaken ocular powers through battle stress, if not worse.


> [
> 
> Well than your mis-remembering, because I never said any of those things.



I still see you falling in the trap of the most logical pairing and Sakura-prize.



> And it was a big thing to the main heroins characters



The whole battlefild looked in awe.




> It does have thematic relevance.



None at all-as Sakura was never Naruto?s goal and it was revealed that even Naruto?s love intersest, it was.....nothing.



> Again Fanbook > You imo. So we'll have to agree to disagree on this to.



Fan-book-come one, this is pitiful.
Then, Sakura filled Sasuke lonely existence. through the whole of part one.



> Which again misses the point I was making. It's not about obligation, it's about what Sakura values, and in the end she valued the man exhibiting hard-work and determination less than the genius, which subverts the overarching theme. Again Sakura is obligated to do anything, but she is subverting the theme by not doing it.



You are making a mess of yourself-Kishi himself  made a point of following your goals and your heart  with determination, presented Sakura renouncing her love  and *betraying herself *and her goal since chapter 4.....and you are telling me about subverting the themes being as she is?Hinata was the girl sharing Naruto nindo and valuing *romantically* hard work and determination.




> Hokagedom and recognition being more important goals does not mean that Naruto didn't want his feelings reciprocated, which is just silly imo.


Not more important, Turrin-HIS goals.

He stopped his crush  at the hospital scene, point blank-and no, Sakura was no dream and goal of him. A point blank declaration like Sakura at her intro, a confession even desperate, like Sakura ?s   and Hinata?s , a declaration like Hinata?s made before joining  the battlefield would have done wonders. 


> I expect what I expect, you expect something different, we'll have to agree to disagree.



Turrin,people even found the  kids everywhere.... cloying-



> The main overarching theme should be evaluated on all things, including pairings imo. If you disagree than cool, but it doesn't effect the way I view things.



You chose the  false love interest, the one whom the very Hero decided NOT to pursue....as a measure of his success.

Very nice,.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The reasons I peg the series as subverting it's overarching theme are clearly out line in the OP, if you would just get passed a single sentence, which doesn't even hold the meaning people are trying to attach to it.



Wanna do me a favor and provide me an example of Naruto "subverting its overarching theme"? 





> Again I wasn't speaking about you, but Zef...however if you want to be included in that grouping so much your building a case for yourself with these strawmen.



Don't use the term strawman if you yourself aren't providing examples to substantiate your argument dude.




> I agree, but I don't see where the evolution took place beyond that.



Sakura's love became genuine following entry into the Chunin exams when in the second part with the forest of death. Remember when both Naruto and Sasuke were incapacitated? Sakura had to fight Sound-nin by herself when Lee also fell to them and she was reflecting on how she too had to become a better Shinobi and not just think about loving about Sasuke. 

From then on when she confessed to him before leaving the village it was genuine. At first during Team 7's introduction in Land of waves arc she thought "wanting revenge" made Sasuke cool. She was more understanding of him then.




> FOR THE FIFTH TIME THIS WAS NOT MY ISSUE WITH THE FIGHT!





I'm providing an explanation of how fights were commenced.

What *WAS* your issue with the fights?




> Anyone who is acting the same way as Zef, I do not take seriously. That applies to some others in the thread, but there are plenty it does not apply to. Still on the fence about you, mostly due to the fact that you insist on categorizing yourself with Zef and using so many straw-man arguments.



How am I using strawman arguments when I'm using examples and you aren't? Nice double standard.



> Cool another straw-man. When did I say his crush on Sakura ever ranked in the same category as being Hokage. I said he has acted on the behalf of Sakura many times, which is totally different from what your saying here.



Sigh...



> *List me an example of Naruto getting Sakura to love him in same category as being Hokage.*



I'm talking about myself. I'm giving you an opportunity to substantiate your argument by providing me an example of Naruto thinking of Sakura in same regard as his goal of becoming hokage.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

@Corvida

I don't really see much point in continuing as on most of the points being discussed it just seems like our expectations on how much Kishimoto is expected to deliver on certain plot points are too different to reconcile, and than most of the other points just comes to you misunderstanding (hopefully not just trolling) what i'm saying, which may be my fault for poorly explaining myself, but I don't know how to clarify myself further, so i'm just going to give up. Plus this being such a small point in my reasoning for why I feel Naruto is the worst, that even if I am wrong about evaluate the pairing stuff the way I do (though for the record I don't think I am), It wouldn't change my opinion of Naruto being the worst i've read in the slightest.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 13, 2015)

i legit have turrin on my SI because he's such a shitposter but a tl;dr diatribe on why naruto is the worst sounds like my jam so i'm gonna bookmark this


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## Revolution (Mar 13, 2015)

In the beginning Naruto was about an outcast fighting for acceptance.

He was fighting fate against dying in obscurity to become the Hokage.

In part two he becomes the "child of prophecy" with a royal lineage. 

He was rivaled with Sasuke who left and formed his own team. 

Taka was made to represent a the outcasts to replace what Naruto was, or so I thought before they just became comic relief.

As Naruto is dying next to Sasuke after their final fight, he tells him not to die because "What I plan to do is have everyone work together, so of course that includes you".

Taka is abandoned.

Sasuke leaves again.

The Last brings us another historic rewriting and a new character, Toneri, to replace the previous foundation of the story.

Kishi admits in an interview he wanted to bring Toneri back for the Bolt movie.

Studio rejected the idea.

No one knows what Naruto is about anymore.

_But at least Naruto became Hokage_


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

Bender said:


> Wanna do me a favor and provide me an example of Naruto "subverting its overarching theme"?
> .





> I'm providing an explanation of how fights were commenced.
> 
> What WAS your issue with the fights?




*Spoiler*: __ 



*INTRO*​When the Naruto story ended, I like many other readers felt disappointed and let down by the author, for various reason, but even still in many ways I acted as an apologist for the story. Like many others on this forum, I grew up with this story and discussed it almost religiously here on the forums; so when the story ultimately ended while I certainly voiced my discontent about it's flaws, there was still a part of me that made excuses for the story, such as, pushing all the blame onto the War-Arc and even more precisely the chapters surrounding the penultimate as well as final battles of the series. However after distancing myself from both the Naruto-Manga and largely the Naruto subsections of the forums for several months, i've come to the point where I can admit that this was not a fair assessment. It's not fair, because the disappoint I felt for how the manga ended, wasn't a product of simply a drop in quality for a certain amount of chapters, rather it was due to the story systematically contradicting and unraveling the fundamental theme that both established the story in Part I and captivated my interest in the series in the first place, and it is for that reason that I feel pretty confident in saying that the Naruto-Manga is both thee most disappointing piece of fiction as well as the worst written piece of fiction I've ever read in my entire life.

"A dropout will beat a genius through hard work."​
To me these words spoken by Lee, symbolize the heart and soul of this manga. From the readers first step into the Naruto-world the reader is exposed to this theme. The main protagonist is not an amazing fighter, not even for his age, in every sense he is average or even bellow average. In a genre such as shonen, where the Goku archetype, i.E. the genius from the jump, flooded the market, this less than speculatcular main protagonist is what made the story of Naruto stand out. It wasn't a tale about a genius basically achieving his birth right, it was an underdog story, where the protagonist struggles to utilize even the most basic skill, but through working himself nearly to death he is able to master a higher variation of that skill, which would latter come to define his entire fighting style. When Naruto competes against his rival Sasuke, it's this underline theme of the underdog having a chance to prove his efforts that adds emotional weight to their rivalry. When Naruto tells Neji that, _"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be!"_, it adds weight to his words. When we see Naruto defeat someone like Gaara, who had both metaphorically and realistically given in to his inner demon, instead of working hard to forge his own path, it adds weight to that accomplishment. And so on...

However as the story progressed, the message shifted to in essence the polar opposite. Hard-work and determination could not enable someone to beat a genius, instead they need freebie power ups from demons and otherworldly beings, as well as the most illustrious of lineages, and even more precisely destiny on their side to compete. The protagonist was no longer the underdog, but instead a descendent of the greatest heroes to walk to verse and even beyond that the reincarnation of one of these great heroes brought to bare in the mortal world. Hard work was displaced, by super modes, that were obtained with relative ease, if not outright served up to the protagonist on a silver platter, by an ancient alien that would make Giorgio A. Tsoukalos cream his pants. So deeply did Kishimoto subvert this theme that it is even evident in the pairing subplots; the protagonist's efforts did not shine through enough to captivate the heart of his love interest, and instead she remained fixated on the genius. The heroins were more aptly rewarded for their efforts, but the actualization of their efforts was never brought to bare in the actual story; Naruto remained fixated on Sakura and Sasuke remained largely a-sexual, sans a single half-hearted apology and forehead poke.

Ultimately this resulted in battles that long promised to hold emotional weight and depth, coming of flat, monotone, and more than anything else just going through the motions. Naruto defeating the main antagonist no longer held the weight it was long intended to, of Naruto actualizing his goal of becoming Hokage despite his dropout nature, because by than he was no longer a drop out, he was like all the other Goku clones that came before him, simply achieving his legacy; a legacy passed down to him via his father the previous Hokage and being the destined reincarnation of Ashura. In-fact the emotional weight of Naruto achieving the Hokage title was so undermined at that point, that when Kishimoto didn't even bother to show Naruto actually being crowned Hokage and wearing that mantel into battle, there was really no love loss for me, as the emotional weight was already long gone. I also found myself not caring, when Kishimoto only had Naruto achieve a symbolic and ultimately cop out style of victory over Sasuke, despite Naruto finally besting his rival being one of the most hyped and built up moments in the entire series, because that weight was again long gone. 

*Conclusion*​In closing, while there are many elements within the Naruto manga that came as disappointments to me, such as manga shifting it's combat style away from the more ninja type battles of Part I and early Part II to DBZ style fighting, numerous plot-holes, and a myriad of weak character narratives [Obito, Madara, etc...) as well as overarching plot narratives [Juubi, God-Tree, etc..], I could have forgiven these things and still found some degree of satisfaction with the story, however the subversion of what I feel is the heart and soul of the story, is something that I find unforgivable. Furthermore, I can not recall a single story that has metapohorically so systematically and throughly ripped it's own heart out to such a degree as the Naruto-manga, and it is for that reason, that I make this thread and feel completely comfortable saying that, the Naruto-manga is thee worst piece of fiction I've ever read. 

----------

Let me know your thoughts, do you agree with my reasoning, or for you was there another theme that Kishimoto ether honored or destroy'd that stuck out to you more as the heart of the story, and makes you ether feel the same way or better about the manga as a whole.

*Disclaimer*​In this thread, I was particularly harsh on the Naruto-manga, but I'm speaking about the overall story from a narrative standpoint. There are still things I very much enjoy about the manga, when looking at them in a vacuum away from the narrative, such as the creativity illustrated in forming the world, characters, and abilities.




Edited for the overly sensitive 



> Don't use the term strawman if you yourself aren't providing examples to substantiate your argument dude.


I provided an example, Zef's post.



> From then on when she confessed to him before leaving the village it was genuine. At first during Team 7's introduction in Land of waves arc she thought "wanting revenge" made Sasuke cool. She was more understanding of him then.


I know when the shift happened bruv, I see no explainable reason for the shift. Why did Sakura love Sasuke beyond the shallow reasons. Please show me one page that indicates why, that's all i'm asking for.



> How am I using strawman arguments when I'm using examples and you aren't? Nice double standard.


I don't think you know what a straw-man is. A straw-man is when you attack a point that the other person never made. Not when someone doesn't provide an example, which I did, Zef's post.



> I'm talking about myself. I'm giving you an opportunity to substantiate your argument by providing me an example of Naruto thinking of Sakura in same regard as his goal of becoming hokage.


But again that was never my argument in the first place, so why would I substantiate it?


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

@OP 



> However as the story progressed, the message shifted to in essence the polar opposite. Hard-work and determination could not enable someone to beat a genius, instead they need freebie power ups from demons and otherworldly beings, as well as the most illustrious of lineages, and even more precisely destiny on their side to compete.



The theme of hard-work was still there. Naruto worked his butt off to earn the love of Konoha and he did. He didn't hypnotize them with bullshit. He saved the village and with Sakura Sasuke and Kakashi's help saved the world from Kaguya.

Naruto likewise had to act intelligently to establish equal ground with Kurama and the two be able to work together.

Btw it's hardly a "freebie" power-up if Naruto couldn't control Kurama's chakra in the beginning of Part II and started relying on his own to accomplish things.

@Turrin

I MEAN post scans from the manga. Some of what you said in OP baseless rhetoric that you need to show an instance otherwise you have nothing.


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## Corvida (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> @Corvida
> 
> I don't really see much point in continuing as on most of the points being discussed it just seems like our expectations on how much Kishimoto is expected to deliver on certain plot points are too different to reconcile, and than most of the other points just comes to you misunderstanding (hopefully not just trolling) what i'm saying, which may be my fault for poorly explaining myself, but I don't know how to clarify myself further, so i'm just going to give up. Plus this being such a small point in my reasoning for why I feel Naruto is the worst, that even if I am wrong about evaluate the pairing stuff the way I do (though for the record I don't think I am), It wouldn't change my opinion of Naruto being the worst i've read in the slightest.



Not trolling you, and sorry If my macarromic make it loook that way-we are simply ramming agaisnt each other and I?m simply puzzled by your obssesion with Naruto besting pretty boy in all. and blaming Sakura for not bending- so OK.





Revolution said:


> In the beginning Naruto was about an outcast fighting for acceptance.
> 
> He was fighting fate against dying in obscurity to become the Hokage.
> 
> ...



Fixed.

And Sasuke comes back and  breeds in Konoha


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## Revolution (Mar 13, 2015)

Zef said:


> FairyTail must be super bad.
> 
> Several YouTube reviewers raged quit it.
> 
> ...





"some youtubers"

mentions the BIG THREE terrible ones


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

On Fairy Tail:

Ain't interested in reading series rehashing atmosphere of Rave Master.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

Bender said:


> @OP
> The theme of hard-work was still there. Naruto worked his butt off to earn the love of Konoha and he did. He didn't hypnotize them with bullshit. He saved the village and with Sakura Sasuke


Naruto didn't work hard to earn the love of Konoha. The manga bent over backwards to serve that accolade to him on a silver platter. One of the most challenging abilities in the entire verse to master that a genius like Orochimaru and hard-worker, and at the time vastly more skilled Jiriaya, could not master, was relegated into a power Naruto could obtain in a weeks time, that would suddenly allow him to power jump several "levels" in strength. Pain than was handicapped immensely from the jump and he still failed to prevail, resulting in Minato having to bail him out after giving in to the Demon-Fox, and becoming a rampaging monster. After that he somehow magically appeared outside of CT and managed to defeat Deva-Realm, but than would have lost to Nagato if not for one of the most contrived TNJ sessions of all time. 

After which he returned to a cheering village, because the villagers were PNJ into there not being a single person who blamed Naruto for the fact that Pain only attacked Konoha to capture Naruto in the first place, and no one blamed Naruto for turning into a rampaging hulk monster (KN6-8) that could have killed them all, because it just so happened that the plot contrived it so KN6-8's attacks didn't cause any cross fire. 

Basically at every turn the plot contrived that resolution or Naruto just got plain lucky. So no I would not credit hard-work or determination for the village turning around on him. I would credit luck and PNJ.



> nd Kakashi's help saved the world from Kaguya


Which he was able to do because of the many plot contrived power ups that came after KCM.



> Naruto likewise had to act intelligently to establish equal ground with Kurama and the two be able to work together.


You mean the plot contrived Kurama pulling a 180, so that Naruto could get BM, BSM, etc...



> Btw it's hardly a "freebie" power-up if Naruto couldn't control Kurama's chakra in the beginning of Part II and started relying on his own to accomplish things.


Naruto couldn't control Kurama's power in early Part II because Kurama was an evil demon whose chakra overwhelmed Naruto's. Flash forward to the war and Kurama is still an evil demon whose chakra overwhelms Naruto's, until suddenly Kurama pulls a 180 and just turns out to be a Tsundere and gifts his chakra to Naruto.



> I MEAN post scans from the manga. Some of what you said in OP baseless rhetoric that you need to show an instance otherwise you have nothing.


Scans of what exactly? I don't think the things I spoke off need scans, as ether they are things that are obviously true or they are subjective opinions that scans won't prove. So if there are specific things that you don't think fall into those categories than point them out and I'll try and get some scans for you.



Corvida said:


> Not trolling you, and sorry If my macarromic make it loook that way-we are simply ramming agaisnt each other and I?m simply puzzled by your obssesion with Naruto besting pretty boy in all. and blaming Sakura for not bending- so OK.


To attempt to clarify once again. I don't blame Sakura for anything. I was simply point out that her choice subverts the main theme of the story. That by itself isn't necessarily something blame worthy, as one or two subversion of the main theme are forgivable, especially in less important plots, but my problem is that at every turn Kishi subverts the main theme, not just in the pairings, but in many other aspects I describe in the opening as well. Collectively the many subversions become narrative suicide, independently they aren't necessarily bad.


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## Revolution (Mar 13, 2015)

Corvida said:


> Fixed.
> 
> And Sasuke comes back and  breeds in Konoha



You're right. 

This whole time Naruto was about Naruto and Sasuke acknowledging their true loves.  

I completely missed that.


----------



## Mochi (Mar 13, 2015)

Look, maybe it is the worst piece fiction for you, that's ok, but did you seriously need to bring pairing shit into this? No one will take you seriously when you cry about a fictional character not putting his fictional dick into a victional pussy. That's just sad.


----------



## Gino (Mar 13, 2015)

I don't really need you to tell me why this series is shit.


----------



## Bishamon (Mar 13, 2015)

Revolution said:


> "some youtubers"
> 
> mentions the BIG THREE terrible ones



They are right though

Fairy Tail is garbage


----------



## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Naruto didn't work hard to earn the love of Konoha. The manga bent over backwards to serve that accolade to him on a silver platter. One of the most challenging abilities in the entire verse to master that a genius like Orochimaru and hard-worker, and at the time vastly more skilled Jiriaya, could not master, was relegated into a power Naruto could obtain in a weeks time, that would suddenly allow him to power jump several "levels" in strength.



Naruto improvised and was able to accomplish something his master couldn't.



> Pain than was handicapped immensely from the jump and he still failed to prevail, resulting in Minato having to bail him out after giving in to the Demon-Fox, and becoming a rampaging monster. After that he somehow magically appeared outside of CT and managed to defeat Deva-Realm, but than would have lost to Nagato if not for one of the most contrived TNJ sessions of all time.



OMG this sounds a shit ton like a argument had with a knuckle-head on another forum. 

Pain had wrecked his Chakra supply by Shinrei Tensei'ing the whole of Konoha into mush. Also "magically appeared"? Naruto is always thinking five steps ahead when it comes to battle. Paper-work shit? He's an epic failure. 

And contrived TNJ?  Naruto was pointing out on how he had failed to live up to the expectations of his friend Yahiko and destroying everything the original Akatsuki was about. Moreover, he gave up and like Obito was trying to loophole the shit to achieve peace. The world they live in as ninja they're expected to not allow their emotions to act out and have them strangle the life out of each other but help each other with their skills.




> After which he returned to a cheering village, because the villagers were PNJ into there not being a single person who blamed Naruto for the fact that Pain only attacked Konoha to capture Naruto in the first place, and no one blamed Naruto for turning into a rampaging hulk monster (KN6-8) that could have killed them all, because it just so happened that the plot contrived it so KN6-8's attacks didn't cause any cross fire.



Now you're just being ridiculous. 

Naruto had shown pretty much EVERYONE in part I how he had somehow gotten used to the power of the Kyuubi. There's that and then there's him saving Tsunade and Konoha. They acknowledged and would never betray him to Akatsuki. Ebisu is even a testament to people who loathed him before understanding he's just as much of a citizen of the village as anyone.

Naruto as Kyuubi was focused solely on wrecking Pain's shit. Had Kyuubi-Naruto turned his focus on Konoha he would've lost the battle. 





> Basically at every turn the plot contrived that resolution or Naruto just got plain lucky. So no I would not credit hard-work or determination for the village turning around on him. I would credit luck and PNJ.





So it's luck that Naruto was able to use Senjutsu better than his mentor. 

It's luck that Naruto was able to bulldoze through the people holding captive on turtle island and go to the battlefield?

What the fuck kind of troll logic is that?







> Which he was able to do because of the many plot contrived power ups that came after KCM.



Good lord you have no idea what you're talking about.




> You mean the plot contrived Kurama pulling a 180, so that Naruto could get BM, BSM, etc...



Kurama aligned with Naruto because Naruto saved Son Goku.



> Naruto couldn't control Kurama's power in early Part II because Kurama was an evil demon whose chakra overwhelmed Naruto's.



Early in part II Kurama wanted to take over Naruto's body and used any time which Naruto lost control to take over.



> Flash forward to the war and Kurama is still an evil demon whose chakra overwhelms Naruto's, until suddenly Kurama pulls a 180 and just turns out to be a Tsundere and gifts his chakra to Naruto.



Uh yeah, no it doesn't. It's when Naruto took too much Chakra from him and went to levels like Four tails that he was no longer in control. When Naruto and Kurama worked in harmony then was it no longer a case of Naruto or Kurama butting heads. 



> Scans of what exactly? I don't think the things I spoke off need scans, as ether they are things that are obviously true or they are subjective opinions that scans won't prove.



Post scans that shows Naruto isn't a hard-worker.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 13, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> also yeah fairy tail is pathetic trash


Fairy Tail can at least be entertaining if you don't think too hard about things . Its not a good piece of fiction but its not horrible, there's tons worse. As for _Freezing_, its kind of grown the beard and grown from its Ecchi routes by making deeper plots, better action, and showing the Nova menace better. Still it can't live down the Louis arc (boy who molests and practically rapes his sister so much she can't stand being touched getting off as a Karma Houdini because he has 'trouble expressing his feelings'. You read that right, he gets forgiven because of 'emotional troubles').


----------



## Haruka Katana (Mar 13, 2015)

Gonna chime in and say yes, Fairy Tail is a piece of shit. 



Zef said:


> FairyTail must be super bad.
> 
> Several YouTube reviewers raged quit it.
> 
> ...


At first fairy tail was alright. It was a few arcs later that the author just completely drop his brains and writes the same shit every arc. Now readers just stop taking it seriously to deal with the rage it will case, every, arc.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 13, 2015)

Haruka Katana said:


> Gonna chime and say yes, Fairy Tail is a piece of shit.
> 
> 
> At first fairy tail was alright. It was a few arcs later that the author just completely drop his brains and writes the same shit every arc.


The Tartoros Arc actually was pretty damn good. Major Death of a couple characters, status quo completely messed up, Dragon plot resolved with Igneel dying, Fairy Tail disbanded...on top of good action and suspense.


----------



## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

BTW the Kakashi power-up is sensible if you remember how insane the mechanics of Chakra are. Remember how even dead Chakra is able to migrate to other people? That's what happen with him.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 13, 2015)

Bender said:


> BTW the Kakashi power-up is sensible if you remember how insane the mechanics of Chakra are. Remember how even dead Chakra is able to migrate to other people? That's what happen with him.


Exactly. Though wish he regained his Sharingan permanently due to what Obito did, give us SOME reason why he'd be a good Hokage power-wise.


----------



## Corvida (Mar 13, 2015)

Revolution said:


> You're right.
> 
> This whole time Naruto was about Naruto and Sasuke acknowledging their true loves.
> 
> I completely missed that.




Biggest Tsundere and densest guy in the verse respectively
 what did you expect?.-Moaning with Maurices or Plateros doesnt change the fact.




Turrin said:


> To attempt to clarify once again. I don't blame Sakura for anything. I was simply point out that her choice subverts the main theme of the story. T



Hero  always gets the girl at the end ? you are forcing the  romance  in the" beating the  rival through hard work " department  where it wasnt called for. as Sakura wasnt a goal-and he didtn wor hard to gert her.
Do you see why we will never  agree? It?s even tasteless, no matter on who you want to put the blame, Messiah or prize wife.


----------



## Haruka Katana (Mar 13, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The Tartoros Arc actually was pretty damn good. Major Death of a couple characters, status quo completely messed up, Dragon plot resolved with Igneel dying, Fairy Tail disbanded...on top of good action and suspense.



Nah...not to me


----------



## Kaix (Mar 13, 2015)

I don't think the theme is expressed well, but I do think that it is realistic. We start out exploring the idea that hard work can over come any obstacle, but we learn that that simply isn't true. Lee shows up as the hardest working foil in the Narutoverse, and while he has his moments, he doesn't amount to as much as someone like Shikamaru, who probably works the least.

It is just like real life. The hardest working actors often aren't on screen. The hardest working athletes often aren't in professional sports. No matter how hard you work, there will be someone who works less than you but has actual talent. As a high school athlete, I used to work myself year round to heat exhaustion, and borderline serious health issues. I played injured, I worked out with the flu, I couldn't always get home under my own power, and I did it all because I wanted to be great. My body, however, didn't have the talent. It didn't get as strong as my other teammates, or as fast, and ultimately I just didn't grow tall enough to play in major college sports no matter how hard I worked. On the other hand, you have a player like Tyrann Mathieu, who has once in a generation levels of talent, and has repeatedly pissed it away with drugs, alcohol, and general slacking off, but has made it to the professional level anyway, ironically playing with one of my old teammates.

So the theme isn't some magical, childish "work hard and your dreams come true" bull crap. That stuff isn't real. The real theme is the same from the Silver Linings Playbook, that, "You have to do everything you can, you have to work your hardest, and if you do, if you stay positive, you have a shot at a silver lining," The key words being "you have a shot" you don't get one just because you try hard. Everything has to be in place; you have to have talent and luck and privilege, and on top of that, you have to work hard, and then maybe, just maybe, you can be successful. 

Naruto didn't express that well, but that was clearly the theme of the story. Not some childish crap about hard work makes the world go round, but that hard work is one component of success, and one of the few that you can actually control.


----------



## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Kaix said:


> Silver Linings Playbook, that, "You have to do everything you can, you have to work your hardest, and if you do, if you stay positive, you have a shot at a silver lining," The key words being "you have a shot" you don't get one just because you try hard. Everything has to be in place; you have to have talent and luck and privilege, and on top of that, you have to work hard, and then maybe, just maybe, you can be successful.



Ain't see Silver linings playbook. Really got same themes?


----------



## Lucaniel (Mar 13, 2015)

Kaix said:


> I don't think the theme is expressed well, but I do think that it is realistic. We start out exploring the idea that hard work can over come any obstacle, but we learn that that simply isn't true. Lee shows up as the hardest working foil in the Narutoverse, and while he has his moments, he doesn't amount to as much as someone like Shikamaru, who probably works the least.
> 
> It is just like real life. The hardest working actors often aren't on screen. The hardest working athletes often aren't in professional sports. No matter how hard you work, there will be someone who works less than you but has actual talent. As a high school athlete, I used to work myself year round to heat exhaustion, and borderline serious health issues. I played injured, I worked out with the flu, I couldn't always get home under my own power, and I did it all because I wanted to be great. My body, however, didn't have the talent. It didn't get as strong as my other teammates, or as fast, and ultimately I just didn't grow tall enough to play in major college sports no matter how hard I worked. On the other hand, you have a player like Tyrann Mathieu, who has once in a generation levels of talent, and has repeatedly pissed it away with drugs, alcohol, and general slacking off, but has made it to the professional level anyway, ironically playing with one of my old teammates.
> 
> ...



this is funny because i made a post saying basically this same thing once, pointing out that kishi had screwed the pooch so badly by disavowing and betraying all his former themes, that the manga's narrative was now "hard work doesn't matter as much whose grandson you are and only those privileged at birth will ever reach the top", and that was a bit like real life

except that i wasn't pretending kishi had intended to do this


----------



## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

Bender said:


> Naruto improvised and was able to accomplish something his master couldn't.


Do you mean the solution just happened to be KB, yet again? Yeah i'm not talking about how Naruto learned to use SM w/o fusion, i'm talking about how he learned to use SM at all in that time period.



> Pain had wrecked his Chakra supply by Shinrei Tensei'ing the whole of Konoha into mush


Which is circumstance aiding Naruto.



> Also "magically appeared"? Naruto is always thinking five steps ahead when it comes to battle. Paper-work shit? He's an epic failure.


What does this have to do with magically appearing outside CT, when he was clearly stuck inside CT in his Kyuubi form.



> And contrived TNJ? Naruto was pointing out on how he had failed to live up to the expectations of his friend Yahiko and destroying everything the original Akatsuki was about. Moreover, he gave up and like Obito was trying to loophole the shit to achieve peace. The world they live in as ninja they're expected to not allow their emotions to act out and have them strangle the life out of each other but help each other with their skills.


By contrived i mean the TNJ became possible due to the whole destined child stick that suddenly became a defining character trait of Naruto's. Certainly it was not because of hard-work.



> Naruto had shown pretty much EVERYONE in part I how he had somehow gotten used to the power of the Kyuubi


Okay and he could use KN0 safely. He could not use KN6-8 safely and everyone would have seen him rampage.



> . There's that and then there's him saving Tsunade and Konoha. They acknowledged and would never betray him to Akatsuki. Ebisu is even a testament to people who loathed him before understanding he's just as much of a citizen of the village as anyone.


Here's the problem. It just doesn't make narrative sense to me. These are the same people who were willing to blame a child and treat him as a monster simply because he had the Demon-Fox sealed inside of him. In the pain-arc, they literally see that same child grown up,  give into that demon and go berserk; as well as have their entire village blown to smithereens and probably have their loved ones killed off by someone trying to hunt that demon. The fact that there isn't a large number of these people voicing discontent towards Naruto and instead he is universally accepted as hero is completely unbelievable to me. Yes I understand that Naruto has touched the lives of quite a few villagers at this point and I can understand why we'd see quite a great deal of them cheering on Naruto in that moment, but realistically a large group should be discontent.



> Naruto as Kyuubi was focused solely on wrecking Pain's shit. Had Kyuubi-Naruto turned his focus on Konoha he would've lost the battle.


They literally said in the manga that it was pure luck that KN-Naruto didn't hurt anyone.

Naruto: (Don't tell me I... Hinata... the other villagers...!) // ......... // !

7
Katsuyu: I was worried myself. // But thankfully, your attacks when in Kyuubi form did not cause any significant damage to the villagers of Konoha... / Though we have only luck to thank for that...

Really no one in the village is PO'd that Naruto basically left whether they live or died up to luck, because he gave into his inner demon.



> So it's luck that Naruto was able to use Senjutsu better than his mentor.


No it's plot that he was able to do so quickly.



> It's luck that Naruto was able to bulldoze through the people holding captive on turtle island and go to the battlefield?


When did I ever talk about this? But I do think it's kinda of plot that bunch of fodder were stationed to guard the Jinchuuriki.



> Good lord you have no idea what you're talking about.


Nice argument



> Kurama aligned with Naruto because Naruto saved Son Goku.


And that has to do with Hard-work how? How is Kurama a character that was built up as sentient demon of darkness turning out to actually be a misunderstood tsundere who cares about his fellow Bijuu so much that Naruto saving one is enough to 180 him and Naruto just so happenining to get that oppertunity in that same arc, a product of hard-work, rather than being obviously plot contrived?



> Early in part II Kurama wanted to take over Naruto's body and used any time which Naruto lost control to take over.


Which is what I said.



> Uh yeah, no it doesn't. It's when Naruto took too much Chakra from him and went to levels like Four tails that he was no longer in control. When Naruto and Kurama worked in harmony then was it no longer a case of Naruto or Kurama butting heads.


How is that not what I said. Kurama's full chakra (or in that case even 4-tails worth) completely overwhelmed Naruto's. This is still the case in the war-arc, unless you wish to argue Base-Naruto had more chakra than Kurama. The only difference is that Kurama was playing nice now due to his 180.



> Post scans that shows Naruto isn't a hard-worker.


Why do I need to. Do I need to prove to you that Hagoromo just gave him a freebie power up. Do I need to prove to you that Naruto got BM/BSM by Kurama simply making the choice to cooperate with him. These aren't products of hard-work these are products of characters choosing to give Naruto powers.

SM is a bit more debatable, but imo 1 week to master it is not the same hard-work Naruto had to do throughout the entire manga to achieve powers previous to that.



Corvida said:


> Hero  always gets the girl at the end ? you are forcing the  romance  in the" beating the  rival through hard work " department  where it wasnt called for. as Sakura wasnt a goal-and he didtn wor hard to gert her.
> Do you see why we will never  agree? It?s even tasteless, no matter on who you want to put the blame, Messiah or prize wife.


The reason we won't agree is because your still misunderstanding and therefore misrepresenting my point; and I don't know how to clarify further.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Fairy Tail can at least be entertaining if you don't think too hard about things . Its not a good piece of fiction but its not horrible, there's tons worse. As for _Freezing_, its kind of grown the beard and grown from its Ecchi routes by making deeper plots, better action, and showing the Nova menace better. Still it can't live down the Louis arc (boy who molests and practically rapes his sister so much she can't stand being touched getting off as a Karma Houdini because he has 'trouble expressing his feelings'. You read that right, he gets forgiven because of 'emotional troubles').



You know I feel like I erased that arc from my memory, was he really forgiven, for some reason I recall it as the heroin just tolerating him. But yeah that was like one of the worst arcs of Freezing, the rest has been decently entertaining, though not genius by any-means and the ecchi stuff is extremely heavy handed. I think it's definitely getting the raw deal by being compared Fairy-Tale and Bleach here, with Bleach being so bad that it's the only one that would give me pause about calling Naruto the worst, but I'll have to wait until Bleach ends to say for sure.


----------



## Lucaniel (Mar 13, 2015)

Kaix said:


> I don't think the theme is expressed well, but I do think that it is realistic. We start out exploring the idea that hard work can over come any obstacle, but we learn that that simply isn't true. Lee shows up as the hardest working foil in the Narutoverse, and while he has his moments, he doesn't amount to as much as someone like Shikamaru, who probably works the least.
> 
> It is just like real life. The hardest working actors often aren't on screen. The hardest working athletes often aren't in professional sports. No matter how hard you work, there will be someone who works less than you but has actual talent. As a high school athlete, I used to work myself year round to heat exhaustion, and borderline serious health issues. I played injured, I worked out with the flu, I couldn't always get home under my own power, and I did it all because I wanted to be great. My body, however, didn't have the talent. It didn't get as strong as my other teammates, or as fast, and ultimately I just didn't grow tall enough to play in major college sports no matter how hard I worked. On the other hand, you have a player like Tyrann Mathieu, who has once in a generation levels of talent, and has repeatedly pissed it away with drugs, alcohol, and general slacking off, but has made it to the professional level anyway, ironically playing with one of my old teammates.
> 
> ...



yeah, here we go


----------



## jemmathepintobean (Mar 13, 2015)

Raniero said:


> How in the world can anybody with sense think Naruto is better than _Berserk_?
> 
> That shit shouldn't even be an opinion
> 
> ...



But it is, though...it's called "having different tastes"...

Berserk isn't horrible, if your shocked that I called it better than Naruto...it's just, meh. What made Naruto better was Part 1...but like I said, opinion. 



> Don't even mention Berserk in the same breath as Naruto. *Too much difference atmosphere between the two to compare.* Fucking hell, the art styles are even wholly different. The mangaka of Berserk is like a painter compared to Kishi.
> 
> Moreover, the* series is Seinen. Naruto is not*.



I agree with what's bolded. If you compare Naruto to OP, I'll choose the latter, no hesitation. Overall mangas I read, to me, Naruto is better than Berserk



> Look, maybe it is the worst piece fiction for you, that's ok, but did you seriously need to bring pairing shit into this? No one will take you seriously when you cry about a fictional character not putting his fictional dick into a victional pussy. That's just sad.



He didn't really focused on pairings that much from what I read, but I agree, nonetheless. I can't take any argument about why Naruto was bad seriously if you mention about parings. Every time an argument is slammed on me, it always ends with who fucked who.  The manga was flawed, but parings won't make the difference. Well, depends on how it's resolved.... I'll say the same for other shounen manga. Kishimoto already said he's embarrassed by romance, he just wanted an ending similar to ch 1 in nostalgia, introducing part 3. So from my view he could give two craps about parings.  

I also can't take you seriously if your comparing mangas like Freezing and FT as on par with Naruto... 

No really, what about Freezing made you so intrigue with it...


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> "A dropout will beat a genius through hard work."
> 
> To me these words spoken by Lee, symbolize the heart and soul of this manga.


Then you missed the real core of this series. The series truly begins, ends, and centers on the bonds between people.

There is a hard work versus genius theme recurring through the series, especially Part 1. It makes for an exciting fights and speaks to a great many people, drawing readers in. However, it plays second fiddle to and works into _Naruto_'s larger theme about bonds.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Still it can't live down the Louis arc (boy who molests and practically rapes his sister so much she can't stand being touched getting off as a Karma Houdini because he has 'trouble expressing his feelings'. You read that right, he gets forgiven because of 'emotional troubles').



Also forgot to mention this:

I'd place Orochimaru eons above Louis in Karama Houdini rankings. Dude performed genetic experimentations on children which resulted in numerous deaths, used 13 years olds in dark rituals to revive the dead, killed his own masters, father figure and Hokage, attempted to kill his best friend multiple times, attempted as well as partially succeded in mass genocide in the attack on Konoha, killed off another nations Kage, if not outright sexually assaulted Anko as a child at the very least bad touched her and experimented on her, had his prisoners fight to the death for sport to decide the best body to take over, manipulated numerous good natured characters into insanity, fed live human sacrifices to Manda, tore the faces off dead children he murdered, attempted to both murder and possess the main characters on numerous occasions,  aid Sasori who crafted peoples corpses into living puppets, attempted to casually murder the Amegakure children, mocked the death of Tsunade's kid brother at his funeral, attempted and nearly suceeded into manipulating Tsunade to utilize her former teammate and attendent in a blood ritual to bring back zombies of her dead former lover (necrophilia anyone) and kid brother, grave grave robbed numerous individuals including children (Nawaki), manipulated a dying young teen into sacrificing himself for him (Kimi), created a machine to grind corpses up into blood bags he could inject himself with, aided Anbu root who utilized even children to do their dirty work, and god knows what else. All of these sins and is seemingly off scot free at the end of the series. Dude puts any other Karama Houdini i've ever seen to shame.

Edit: Actually Sasuke himself is probably eons about Louis in this category as well considering he attempted to murder Sakura numerous times and still got to shack up with her in the end, as well as getting off relative scot free for attempting to murder numerous other individuals including his best friend. 



Vaatu said:


> Then you missed the real core of this series. The series truly begins, ends, and centers on the bonds between people.
> 
> There is a hard work versus genius theme recurring through the series, especially Part 1. It makes for an exciting fights and speaks to a great many people, drawing readers in. However, it plays second fiddle to and works into _Naruto_'s larger theme about bonds.


I don't see why both can't be major overarching themes in the story; and indeed that is the way I see it.


----------



## Corvida (Mar 13, 2015)

Vaatu said:


> Then you missed the real core of this series. The series truly begins, ends, and centers on the bonds between people.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I don't see why both can't be major overarching themes in the story; and indeed that is the way I see it.


They very well can be. In a different series.

Kishi didn't write _Naruto_ that way though. You might say hard work vs genius is the Sakura to the bonds' Naruto and Sasuke.


----------



## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Do you mean the solution just happened to be KB, yet again? Yeah i'm not talking about how Naruto learned to use SM w/o fusion, i'm talking about how he learned to use SM at all in that time period.



Naruto was able to master the Rasengan in a week (or semi-master in this case).  It was not that difficult as you're blatantly making it out to be.




> Which is circumstance aiding Naruto.



And again it's a case of how ninja work with the conditions that they're faced with. It's a consistent thing in fiction with ninja. Stop acting like Naruto is the only one who dealt with such a dilemma.  




> What does this have to do with magically appearing outside CT, when he was clearly stuck inside CT in his Kyuubi form.



How was he stuck in CT? Pain was clearly shitting bricks when it looked like he was going to fight the Kyuubi's regular form.




> By contrived i mean the TNJ became possible due to the whole destined child stick that suddenly became a defining character trait of Naruto's. Certainly it was not because of hard-work.



Naruto was defined by how he never gave up. He defined being a "determinator". TNJ was a sub-trait of his for hard-headed woobie destroyer of world fuckers. 

Hell, Naruto was a master of TNJing people he met in battle in part I like Zabuza or those he beat to the ground like Neji and Gaara.





> Okay and he could use KN0 safely. He could not use KN6-8 safely and everyone would have seen him rampage.



KN-6 form was Naruto attacking Pain. Even if Naruto was out of control atm, Akatsuki had come for the Kyuubi so it was in Kurama's best interest to attack Pain.





> Here's the problem. It just doesn't make narrative sense to me. These are the same people who were willing to blame a child and treat him as a monster simply because he had the Demon-Fox sealed inside of him.



Good fucking lord you really weren't paying attention to reading the story bro... 

Yes, they blamed him for having the Kyuubi in him and there's also him being a trouble-maker to get their attention. 



> In the pain-arc, they literally see that same child grown up,  give into that demon and go berserk; as well as have their entire village blown to smithereens and probably have their loved ones killed off by someone trying to hunt that demon.



The majority of the villagers were dead or injured. They didn't see him go berserk. Moreover, Naruto gave into the Kyuubi when he was angered that Hinata had been hurt (or killed for all he knew).

The battle Naruto waged against Pain was on the outskirts of the village rather than in it. Read again dammit. 




> The fact that there isn't a large number of these people voicing discontent towards Naruto and instead he is universally accepted as hero is completely unbelievable to me. Yes I understand that Naruto has touched the lives of quite a few villagers at this point and I can understand why we'd see quite a great deal of them cheering on Naruto in that moment, but realistically a large group should be discontent.



... 

The battle Naruto as Kyuubi waged with Pain was not within Konoha. It was out of it. He didn't harm the villagers while Kyuubi.

It's not even about Naruto being accepted as a hero. You really think they should be bitch-like and tell Pain where Naruto is? That's the exact type of shit that defines a coward. Moreover, Naruto is a comrade who has fought for the village. 




> Naruto: (Don't tell me I... Hinata... the other villagers...!) // ......... // !
> 
> 7
> Katsuyu: I was worried myself. // But thankfully, your attacks when in Kyuubi form did not cause any significant damage to the villagers of Konoha... / Though we have only luck to thank for that...



It's hardly luck. For what conceivable reason would Kurama taking over Naruto's body want to wantonly destroy bits of the village when his opponent was Pain (a strategic master)?  




> Really no one in the village is PO'd that Naruto basically left whether they live or died up to luck, because he gave into his inner demon.



Honestly, anyone would be pissed off if they saw their comrade struck down like Pain did to Hinata. 




> No it's plot that he was able to do so quickly.



Want to provide proof of that dear? 




> When did I ever talk about this? But I do think it's kinda of plot that bunch of fodder were stationed to guard the Jinchuuriki.



They're logical choices to guard Naruto. Nara clansmen and Aburame people. The last ditch effort of having Iruka was also smart. Though Naruto had become too smart and Tobi/Obito having Kinkaku and Ginkaku unleashed on battlefield drew Naruto there.




> And that has to do with Hard-work how? How is Kurama a character that was built up as sentient demon of darkness turning out to actually be a misunderstood tsundere who cares about his fellow Bijuu so much that Naruto saving one is enough to 180 him and Naruto just so happenining to get that oppertunity in that same arc, a product of hard-work, rather than being obviously plot contrived?





See this is why Part II important because it showed that Kurama isn't just some brainless monster like you're making him out to be. 

When Kurama was involved in any attack it was because he was attacked by others. The dude was enslaved by Madara when he attacked Konoha, then by Tobi/Obito.

You really think he doesn't have a personality and just a monster? That same shit was how Kishi's brother Seishi based 666 Satan Lucifer and cuz of that the whole finale of the story was lame as hell.



> Which is what I said.
> 
> How is that not what I said. Kurama's full chakra (or in that case even 4-tails worth) completely overwhelmed Naruto's. This is still the case in the war-arc, unless you wish to argue Base-Naruto had more chakra than Kurama. The only difference is that Kurama was playing nice now due to his 180.



Naruto had earned Kurama's respect because of the feats he had executed over the years and thus the two became a team.




> Why do I need to. Do I need to prove to you that Hagoromo just gave him a freebie power up.



Your points on the manga are all over the place. This is also a reason why the manga is "The worst"?



> Do I need to prove to you that Naruto got BM/BSM by Kurama simply making the choice to cooperate with him. These aren't products of hard-work these are products of characters choosing to give Naruto powers.



Kurama even considered his actions as hard-work. Kurama was reluctant to help until he saw Naruto help Son Goku. That also established Naruto's concern for the bijuu as genuine.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 13, 2015)

Vaatu said:


> Then you missed the real core of this series. The series truly begins, ends, and centers on the bonds between people.
> 
> There is a hard work versus genius theme recurring through the series, especially Part 1. It makes for an exciting fights and speaks to a great many people, drawing readers in. However, it plays second fiddle to and works into _Naruto_'s larger theme about bonds.



Yeah that was the primary theme but on that point as well, I don't think it's a stretch to say for many that he flopped just as badly on expressing that as well. The bonds displayed felt so unrelatable in regard to the nature that he was trying to portray through many of them. Especially as it pertained to the dynamics of Team 7.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

Hard work seemed more sub-theme than anything. 

Additionally whole basis of ninja being "endure" also seemed to apply to audience at times.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 13, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Yeah that was the primary theme but on that point as well, I don't think it's a stretch to say for many that he flopped just as badly on expressing that as well. The bonds displayed felt so unrelatable in regard to the nature that he was trying to portray through many of them. Especially as it pertained to the dynamics of Team 7.


It's a difficult theme to have reach everyone and Kishi didn't pull it off perfectly, I'll admit.

I disagree that it flopped as badly as Turrin claims hard work vs genius did and that it was worse than other series.


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## Bender (Mar 13, 2015)

In Flame of Recca the protagonist also uses a demonic outside force to fight his enemies and yet he's still considered a hard-worker.


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## Alucardemi (Mar 13, 2015)

Zef said:


> Sasuke has mismatched eyes, and one arm.



lmao

idk I just found this hilarious


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## Csdabest (Mar 14, 2015)

Yep when you think on how much time we spent bickering on this series trying to base things off of kishi being consistent in his tones and themes for the manga. If someone told me kishi died and another writer picked up the series after Sasuke vs Itachi I would believe it. 

Naruto single and greatest solo victory should have been Sasuke through hardwork. Not no destiny mumbo jumbo. And when you look at how history of the legacy went. Sasuke was always destined to lose and Naruto was always destined to be the winner. 

Ashura beat Indra
Hashirama Beat Madara
Naruto beat Sasuke


Kishi fucked up and we just need to get over it.


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## RBL (Mar 14, 2015)

take my rep bro, it was nice to read.

naruto turned to shit after the time-skip.

but i think fairy tail is even worse tho.


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## Plague (Mar 14, 2015)

EDIT:
K, I read it all and while I agree that this manga was terrible, notably in a lot of areas you mentioned, I'd say it's still far from the worst Manga ever.


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## Zef (Mar 14, 2015)

Revolution said:


> "some youtubers"
> 
> mentions the BIG THREE terrible ones



Go on YouTube, and type in Fairy Tail chapter 322. Several YouTube reviewers other then the ones I listed shat on the chapter, and dropped the manga.


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## Raniero (Mar 14, 2015)

jemmathepintobean said:


> But it is, though...it's called "having different tastes"...
> 
> Berserk isn't horrible, if your shocked that I called it better than Naruto...it's just, meh. What made Naruto better was Part 1...but like I said, opinion.


I reject your opinion.

Everything Naruto did good in part 1, Berserk had already done better.


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## Addy (Mar 14, 2015)

you can't honestly start with a thread title  this hostile thinking that people would read a wall of text, right?


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## Mikon (Mar 14, 2015)

Raniero said:


> I reject your opinion.
> 
> Everything Naruto did good in part 1, Berserk had already done better.



How so? Berserk and Naruto are so different that it's ridiculous to even compare them (Also, one is Shounen while the other is Seinen)
Sorry, but how Berserk is better than Naruto at tactical battels? or drama? or comedy? Berserk didn't have any comedy at all (and that's fine)
Comparing them is just too wrong


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## Raniero (Mar 14, 2015)

Mikon said:


> How so? Berserk and Naruto are so different that it's ridiculous to even compare them (Also, one is Shounen while the other is Seinen)
> Sorry, but how Berserk is better than Naruto at tactical battels? or drama? or comedy? Berserk didn't have any comedy at all (and that's fine)
> Comparing them is just too wrong


You can compare the consistency of the writing, the characterization, and the plot. 

And yes, while Naruto does have better tactical battles and comedy, I wouldn't go so far as to say the drama is remotely as well written as it is in Berserk. Kishimoto's attempt at drama is one of the worst things about Naruto.

And just because Naruto is shonen doesn't excuse it from being compared to seinen manga. Shonen and Seinen are just demographics. It has no bearing on how good the writing is expected to be.


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## Mikon (Mar 14, 2015)

Raniero said:


> You can compare the consistency of the writing, the characterization, and the plot.
> 
> And yes, while Naruto does have better tactical battles and comedy, I wouldn't go so far as to say the drama is remotely as well written as it is in Berserk. Kishimoto's attempt at drama is one of the worst things about Naruto.



I know that you can compare SOME things, but you just went and said that EVERYTHING that Naruto has done, Berserk already done better, and that's not very accurate
About the drama, well, that would be your own opinion, because i liked things like Rock Lee's attempt to fight with Gaara even after he got his arm and leg crushed, it was a very strong scene, or things like Jiraiya's death and Naruto's reaction to it


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## Raniero (Mar 14, 2015)

Mikon said:


> I know that you can compare SOME things, but you just went and said that EVERYTHING that Naruto has done, Berserk already done better, and that's not very accurate


It was a hyperbole.


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## Mikon (Mar 14, 2015)

The things that Kishi has failed in the drama section are Nagato/Obito converting to Naruto's side and Neji's death


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## Harbour (Mar 14, 2015)

You nailed the things, *Turrin*, though you should have make a bigger and more detailed analysis.
Probably that was the reason, why i dont feel the nostalgia or dont need to re-read the manga. It just felt underwhelming.
For my extended opinion, i prefer to post the link.


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## Rosi (Mar 14, 2015)

Ohh, Turrin went it 


I don't think it's the worst, but it's definitely up there.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2015)

Addy said:


> you can't honestly start with a thread title  this hostile thinking that people would read a wall of text, right?



the thread title is the hook that would motivate them to read it


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## Raiden (Mar 14, 2015)

Tough love but a much needed analysis to show that everything did not come together smoothly. I have a hard time believing that the series played out the way it did. Personally there was nothing wrong with several parts of it, but the war sent on too long, and time should have been invested in bringing everything back down to earth.


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## Grimsley (Mar 14, 2015)

Naruto started becoming bad after the time skip but it was still redeemable. What tarnished it forever was the fact that it turned into a DBZ mini series.


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## Arles Celes (Mar 14, 2015)

Guess Kishi arrived at the conclusion that Naruto being an average Joe would be kinda...underwhelming? Like with Sakura?

Possibly he wished for a more realistic approach. After all Naruto never was training THAT hard. And Sasuke was hard working too. Even his hobby was training.

In a way Kishi did prove his theme true with Guy. The 8th Gate-the pinnacle of hardwork- was able to overwhelm one of the most legendary shinobi in history...and said shinobi was even powered by the Narutoverse god.

Before we realized the story was about revenge, guts and bonds. What Jiraiya said about enduring being the most important quality for shinobi remained true. It was true persevering both in through battles and not giving up his principles that Naruto got all that he wanted. Lee and Guy were too extreme with their hardworing philosophy and I guess Kishi saw it impossible for Naruto to be even a greater hardworker than them. After all he is the MC so he has to be the strongest by the end and if hard work is the true key to that then Naruto needs to work harder than those two.

So Kishi had to pull off something at which Naruto could be unmatched. And that was his tenacity and his ability to create bonds.

Also...even in part 1 Naruto often relied on Kurama to win. Without Kurama he wouldn't have defeated Neji, Gaara nor matched VoTE Sasuke for so long. His only victories without Kyuubi power that I recall were against Kiba and Kabuto.

The hardworker theme with Naruto was cool but it was still subverted rather early on.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 14, 2015)

I don't agree that its the worst piece of fiction out there, Fifty Shades of Shit does exist after all. I've read manga that were a lot worse than Naruto too, but Naruto's ending was admittedly horrible.

Still, respect for spending the time to make your opinion vocal. Most people insulting you in this thread would never have the balls to express an unpopular opinion.​​


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## Ghost (Mar 14, 2015)

> Still, respect for spending the time to make your opinion vocal. Most people insulting you in this thread would never have the balls to express an unpopular opinion.





Such hero.


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## Bender (Mar 14, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Still, respect for spending the time to make your opinion vocal. Most people insulting you in this thread would never have the balls to express an unpopular opinion.​​




So suddenly commenters=villains of this situation.  

:33 this part is rich in how it doesn't even fit with much of what Turrin was chewing out the series for:



> I'd place Orochimaru eons above Louis in Karama Houdini rankings. Dude performed genetic experimentations on children which resulted in numerous deaths, used 13 years olds in dark rituals to revive the dead, killed his own masters, father figure and Hokage, attempted to kill his best friend multiple times, attempted as well as partially succeded in mass genocide in the attack on Konoha, killed off another nations Kage, if not outright sexually assaulted Anko as a child at the very least bad touched her and experimented on her, had his prisoners fight to the death for sport to decide the best body to take over, manipulated numerous good natured characters into insanity, fed live human sacrifices to Manda, tore the faces off dead children he murdered, attempted to both murder and possess the main characters on numerous occasions, aid Sasori who crafted peoples corpses into living puppets, attempted to casually murder the Amegakure children, mocked the death of Tsunade's kid brother at his funeral, attempted and nearly suceeded into manipulating Tsunade to utilize her former teammate and attendent in a blood ritual to bring back zombies of her dead former lover (necrophilia anyone) and kid brother, grave grave robbed numerous individuals including children (Nawaki), manipulated a dying young teen into sacrificing himself for him (Kimi), created a machine to grind corpses up into blood bags he could inject himself with, aided Anbu root who utilized even children to do their dirty work, and god knows what else. All of these sins and is seemingly off scot free at the end of the series.




You do realize Orochimaru has worked with Danzo right? THE Danzo. The same Danzo that is the most memetic well-intentioned monster of the series?  Danzo had experimented with Mokuton element and it stands to reason that he commissioned Orochimaru into experimenting on children. Why? Because there's the fact he amorally (not to mention assholishly) strong-arms an orphanage into handing over Yakushi Kabuto back when he was an orphan to make up for him losing a subordinate.

There's also him branding Root members with curse seals to prevent them from exposing what he did to the public.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 14, 2015)

Bender, I think it's pretty evident you have no idea what he's talking about there. That is exactly what he's criticizing, you know...The fact that Orochimaru did all these atrocious things and faced on lasting consequence for it, hence the "Karma Houdini" description? Come on, you use TVTropes you should know the meaning of that term.


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## Bender (Mar 14, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Bender, I think it's pretty evident you have no idea what he's talking about there. That is exactly what he's criticizing, you know...



I'm plenty sure I know what he's talking about.



> The fact that Orochimaru did all these atrocious things and faced on lasting consequence for it, hence the "Karma Houdini" description? Come on, you use TVTropes you should know the meaning of that term.



The whole infant experiment fiasco has barely any timed date on it. And if you remember Kabuto's flashback he was in Danzo's employment. Danzo is in the same category of "atrocious" and "despicable" as Orochimaru. 

Danzo was going to take Kabuto away from his foster mother and threatened to have an orphanage burned down.

For all the nasty actions Orochimaru did he showed visible care for Kabuto during flashback and when he was still under Itachi's Izanami jutsu. There's also him subtly mourning Jiraiya after saving Tsunade.  In Tsunade's Infinite Tsukuyomi dream sequence Orochimaru's there along with Jiraiya. 

In part I she was able to tell that he was lying about sparing the hidden leaf when she "offered" to heal his hands. 

On Tvtropes: I've stopped using that forum because I was so bloody sick of the Moral Myopia in regards to how they pegged characters. That and someone said  "Sasuke is brought to justice is everything" is solved. It....doesn't work like that.. It doesn't.

Even if Sasuke died once Naruto died depending on how things ended with them the cycle is going to continue.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 14, 2015)

Jesus Christ, you really don't know what he was talking about. Orochimaru having some hidden feelings or showing some care to Kabuto does nothing to change his monstrous actions and lack of ethics.


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## Bender (Mar 14, 2015)

@Seto Kaiba

Why? Because you say so? 

That's the same thing people say about Obito and yet it's because the memory of him that cherished by Kakashi, and admired by Naruto that kept him from being a Complete Monster.

Also lack of ethics? 

*DUDE*

We must be reading a different story because IIRC he explicitly defied orders and went out of his way to help Kabuto when ROOT and Danzo plotted to have him and his foster mother killed.

Even for all the shit we saw him exhibit in part I and part II what Danzo did is difficult to measure up to.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 14, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Seto Kaiba
> 
> Why? Because you say so?
> 
> ...



He engaged in human experimentation. On babies no less, I don't think his monstrous nature need further establishment. Anyone that isn't mentally challenged knows completely well why human experimentation is looked upon as a monstrous act. The fact that you think some brief shows of humanity balances that out says a lot on your poor grasp of these concepts.

Obito WAS a complete monster. He murdered tens of thousands of people over something completely stupid. Being cherished and admired didn't stop him from committing his crimes. 

Manipulation is not the same as having ethics. A brief show of mercy does not discount the unethical nature that he carried throughout his life either. For the horrific things he did, Orochimaru faced no lasting consequences.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 14, 2015)

Naruto had to work hard to learn rasengan and control his vast chakra pool, it was no cake walk.  The theme of Naruto was never no matter how much you suck you can be the best if you try hard, that would be corny and stupid.  In real life some people are gifted, some of those gifted individuals don't realize their true potential ever, some realize it with hardly any effort, like Sasuke, and yet Sasuke still worked hard to master and control his already impressive powers.

Think about it Kishimoto's brother gave it a good shot, but he simply wasn't as talented as Kishimoto, he couldn't capture people's imaginations like his brother could.  Kishimoto is very much like Naruto, not only did he put in a great deal of hard work, but he had a natural talent and creativity.  Not only this, but without his original editor and inspirations Naruto would never have been as successful as it is, and without Kurama or his friends and mentors, Naruto wouldn't be able to stand up to the Uchiha menace.  There are other themes of Naruto that were way more prominent and important to the story that the OP fails to address, and I can't take it seriously as a result.

Naruto was a pretty solid story but started getting shaky when Obito was unmasked.  The whole Rin thing worked in a symbolic sense, but it started bordering on corny when Obito started having hallucinations of her and then her ghost popped out to pull them forward against Kaguya.  Still not as bad as One Piece characters crying over a boat (and basically everything remotely unfortunate that happens in each arc) though.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 14, 2015)

Orochimaru will at least be dealt with in the Boruto movie, so him being a Karma Houdini till then isn't likely.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 14, 2015)

Couldn't care less about the kids, really. The fact that Naruto hadn't dealt with him just is one of the things that undermine Kishimoto's attempts to touch upon the concepts and themes he did in the story.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 14, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Couldn't care less about the kids, really. The fact that Naruto hadn't dealt with him just is one of the things that undermine Kishimoto's attempts to touch upon the concepts and themes he did in the story.



Naruto is trying to teach Boruto a lesson, Boruto's childhood is not nearly as horrible as Naruto's, if Naruto made shadow clones to hang out with and spoil Boruto with attention, he wouldn't learn to value family and bonds like Naruto learned to.  I'm sure we'll see Naruto hanging out with his son at Ichiraku ramen in the spin off series, it would have been a good nostalgic chapter 1 parallel to see that in chapter 700 though, Kishimoto missed the target there.  Also one of the themes in Naruto was how important it was for a Hokage to put the village before anything else, that includes his family, like he said everyone in the village is his child so it's unfair for him to always give Bolt his attention, and why should he reward Bolt for vandalism?  That would be a bad idea.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 14, 2015)

That sounds like Naruto's problem as a father. Don't see where Orochimaru fits into that.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 14, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> That sounds like Naruto's problem as a father. Don't see where Orochimaru fits into that.



It's not a problem as a father, being a father doesn't mean you need to spoil your kids.  Naruto is a Hokage as well, that isn't the same thing as a CEO or manager, he is the leader of people, a shepherd.  He considers everyone as his children, including Bolt.  Bolt needs to learn to understand these things and stop acting out for attention, Naruto loves him and because of this he personally shows up to punish Bolt.  It isn't like Naruto never spends time with his kids, but he prioritizes the village before all else.


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## Legendary Itachi (Mar 14, 2015)

Seems like another case where ppl help Kishit elaborate shits he never gives a fuck to, just as all the themes in this manga. 

Worst piece of fiction seems too harsh, the cheesy happy ending though is up to there.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 14, 2015)

Yeah Orochimaru was definitely an unfinished plot point unless we're supposed to take his "people change" speech seriously.  Yes people change, but Orochimaru's reason for changing doesn't make much sense given who he was.  He didn't just experiment on and sadistically murder children and adults mechanically in order to reach his ultimate goal of "godlike perfection" , he did it out of curiosity and love of the wicked sadistic satisfaction that came with inspiring fear, pain, and sadness.  He manipulated innocent children to become his loyal pawns, and sacrificed them as it was nothing, and did all of this just to keep the "windmill turning", to keep himself entertained while he moved toward his final objective.  Just seeing Kabuto's warped ideology fail in the end wouldn't have changed his nature, maybe just his approach to his fulfilling his ideals.


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## UchihaJaime (Mar 14, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Orochimaru will at least be dealt with in the Boruto movie, so him being a Karma Houdini till then isn't likely.



These issues need to be dealt with in the series proper, not in a movie. This is like saying Anakin's fall to darkness makes sense if you read this book. That's not valid. Issues raised in a series must be answered in that series.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 14, 2015)

UchihaJaime said:


> These issues need to be dealt with in the series proper, not in a movie. This is like saying Anakin's fall to darkness makes sense if you read this book. That's not valid. Issues raised in a series must be answered in that series.



there simply was no time to address him, he shouldn't have been revived, but they needed him to revive the Kages.


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## UchihaJaime (Mar 14, 2015)

thebrightestshadow said:


> there simply was no time to address him, he shouldn't have been revived, but they needed him to revive the Kages.



It is still a problem. You shouldn't allow mitigating circumstances to determine the quality of a work of fiction, but rather the work of fiction as it stands on its own

I don't understand why they didn't just push back the movie a few months to allow for a better story. This happens all the time in American cinema.

Also no, Kishimoto didn't need Orochimaru to bring back the Kages. Just have Kabuto come back, say he spent a couple years in the genjutsu but it was a few minutes in thee real world, and then have him bring back the Kage. It's still rushed character development, but at least it's rushed character development that only ruins one character, as opposed to two.

edit; don't get me started on how unethical it was to just let him go, if that's what they actually did.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 14, 2015)

UchihaJaime said:


> It is still a problem. You shouldn't allow mitigating circumstances to determine the quality of a work of fiction, but rather the work of fiction as it stands on its own
> 
> I don't understand why they didn't just push back the movie a few months to allow for a better story. This happens all the time in American cinema.
> 
> ...



Kishimoto ended on chapter 700 because OCD, it was just a solid number to finish the story.  There were unfinished plot points, The Last dealt with Naruto's romance and Hamura's legacy, Boruto will deal with Orochimaru, Taka, and maybe Hidan.  I'm glad they didn't drag on the manga even more, it ended on a reasonable note unlike many other anime/manga series, and The Last wasn't half bad, the fantasy concepts were overflowing with creativity imo, Toneri's puppets were awesome and Toneri's tenseigan was extremely cool.

Take a look at the end of Fullmetal Alchemist, we still don't know what the fuck Father was, what he had to do with Truth, what he was planning on doing with God's power besides just showing off, what would become of Pride's reincarnation.  Then we had the cheesy shit with I will trade my super powers for my brother's body back because all I need is friends to be happy, not super powers.  That was just really lame imo.

I understand with shonen you need to shoehorn in friendship themes somehow, but I think Naruto did it better than most by expanding it's meaning to things other than just arbitrary love shit.


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## UchihaJaime (Mar 14, 2015)

thebrightestshadow said:


> Kishimoto ended on chapter 700 because OCD, it was just a solid number to finish the story.  There were unfinished plot points, The Last dealt with Naruto's romance and Hamura's legacy, Boruto will deal with Orochimaru, Taka, and maybe Hidan.  I'm glad they didn't drag on the manga even more, it ended on a reasonable note unlike many other anime/manga series, and The Last wasn't half bad, the fantasy concepts were overflowing with creativity imo, Toneri's puppets were awesome and Toneri's tenseigan was extremely cool.



You don't end a story because of movie or because of OCD. You end it because you finished the story, meaning you resolved all of the problems, finished all of the character development, and answered all of the questions that you raised. This is my primary argument. My argument does not revolve entirely around the movie. The movie was only an aspect of my argument.

Let me repeat. 


UchihaJaime said:


> These issues need to be dealt with in the series proper, not in a movie. This is like saying Anakin's fall to darkness makes sense if you read this book. That's not valid. Issues raised in a series must be answered in that series.



I don't care if there are resolved in the Boruto movie. Anymore than I care that Anakin was well written in a book or the cartoon series. What matters was is the main series. A competent author ends a story because he's finished the story. Kishimoto ended his without resolving issues, making a bad ending.


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## Vandal Savage (Mar 14, 2015)

Naruto was serialized in Weekly Shounen Jump alongside Bleach for over a decade. That alone means it isn't the worst piece of fiction ever, it wasn't even the worst piece of fiction in its own magazine. Never mind that Reborn also ran concurrently with both for almost a decade.

I consider Naruto to be a highly flawed and largely botched work overall. It had been consistently trash for the majority of its run (Part 2 is almost double the size of Part 1) but even with all that it still isn't the worst long-running series of the last 15 years.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 14, 2015)

UchihaJaime said:


> You don't end a story because of movie or because of OCD. You end it because you finished the story, meaning you resolved all of the problems, finished all of the character development, and answered all of the questions that you raised. This is my primary argument. My argument does not revolve entirely around the movie. The movie was only an aspect of my argument.
> 
> Let me repeat.
> 
> ...



The story is continued through a different medium.  Star Wars is split into different movies, so why can't Naruto be split into a manga, and then different movies?  People rate the Star Wars movies individually, even though each one leaves questions that will be answered in later installments.


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## UchihaJaime (Mar 14, 2015)

thebrightestshadow said:


> The story is continued through a different medium.  Star Wars is split into different movies, so why can't Naruto be split into a manga, and then different movies?  People rate the Star Wars movies individually, even though each one leaves questions that will be answered in later installments.



What? I can make neither heads nor tails of this.

Of course people rate each Star Wars movie differently. I was referring to the all movies, not one. 
 If one movie handled Anakin bad, but another movie fixed everything about that movie and gave Anakin development that would make Anakin's develop good, or the very least not horrible. However, in all prequels Anakin sucks. There is a difference between a work and minor works tied to the aforementioned work with the purpose of extending that work.

All the Star Wars movies are in the "the work" category. Lucas himself considers Star Wars one large movie. The books/comics of Stars Wars are not "the work." They don't fix "the work." They extend it. Naruto manga is "the work." It raised questions that it failed to answer due to the rushed ending. Boruto movie is not a part of "the work." It should extend the story. It should make Boruto an interesting character coming to terms with the fact his father can't spend time with him and showing him mature into a stronger person and a stronger ninja. It should not "fix" the manga because it's not a part of the manga. And the manga should not need fixing because it should have the ability to stand on its own.

By the logic people rate the Star War movies differently, I could say people rate the different chapters and volumes differently. So, this single volume should tell me everything I need to know about Naruto. It didn't, so Naruto sucks. One quickly sees where the logic falls part in this example. Volumes are a part of the original work, unlike movies like the Boruto one. One volume can help another out. A movie can't because it's not a part of the original work.





thebrightestshadow said:


> The story is continued through a different medium.  Star Wars is split into different movies,.



How can follow that first sentence up with that? All Star Wars movies are in the same medium because they're movies, unlike manga and movies. BTW, it wasn't my argument that Boruto movie doesn't count because it's a different medium, It's because it's not a part of the series proper. It's materiel that is tacked on to a thing, not something that completes  the thing. It extends. It does not fix.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 14, 2015)

UchihaJaime said:


> These issues need to be dealt with in the series proper, not in a movie. This is like saying Anakin's fall to darkness makes sense if you read this book. That's not valid. Issues raised in a series must be answered in that series.


...the Boruto Movie AND Mini-Series are part of the Naruto series. They aren't a separate continuity, they're PART of it.


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## UchihaJaime (Mar 14, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...the Boruto Movie AND Mini-Series are part of the Naruto series. They aren't a separate continuity, they're PART of it.



They are canon. They aren't a part of the series proper. They don't fix the series proper. I never said they were separate continuity. I said they didn't fix the series proper because they aren't in the series proper. I didn't say they weren't canon. Put your straw-man away. I'm saying the series proper should have handled this in the series proper, not rushed the ending.
edit
going back to the star wars example. The cartoon is canon, but it doesn't fix Anakin because the movies should be able to stand on their own since they are the original work.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 14, 2015)

Jetstorm said:


> Naruto was serialized in Weekly Shounen Jump alongside Bleach for over a decade. That alone means it isn't the worst piece of fiction ever, it wasn't even the worst piece of fiction in its own magazine. Never mind that Reborn also ran concurrently with both for almost a decade.
> 
> I consider Naruto to be a highly flawed and largely botched work overall. It had been consistently trash for the majority of its run (Part 2 is almost double the size of Part 1) but even with all that it still isn't the worst long-running series of the last 15 years.



yeah

bleach is worse 

co-signed


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 14, 2015)

UchihaJaime said:


> What? I can make neither heads nor tails of this.
> 
> Of course people rate each Star Wars movie differently. I was referring to the all movies, not one.
> If one movie handled Anakin bad, but another movie fixed everything about that movie and gave Anakin development that would make Anakin's develop good, or the very least not horrible. However, in all prequels Anakin sucks. There is a difference between a work and minor works tied to the aforementioned work with the purpose of extending that work.
> ...



The Star Wars extended universe is not canon.  Naruto movies are canon, and they serve to address things that weren't in the manga.  Orochimaru's fate wasn't that important in the end, nor was Hamura's legacy or the pairings.  People consider Neon Genesis Evangelion and End of Evangelion part of the same story, you can't really have one without the other, they're both canon.  If you end with "congratulations" then it's fucking stupid.  Then again the ending of Naruto manga was not that absurd.


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## Griever (Mar 14, 2015)

It was bad yes. it was mostly bad because the main cast (Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura) where particularly bad. worst yet they contradicted themselves because Kishimoto couldn't believably write them in the manner he wanted. 

However, i do still appreciate the world and concept of Ninjutsu which i find extremely creative and engaging. so i wouldn't call it the worst piece of fiction i've ever read.


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## UchihaJaime (Mar 14, 2015)

thebrightestshadow said:


> The Star Wars extended universe is not canon.  .




I'm aware it is no longer considered canon with the Disney acquisition, except the cartoon series (which I mentioned in my argument) is canon. Despite being canon it can't fix the original work because it's not the original work and the original work should not need to be fixed because the original work must stand on its own without having to rely on other works to fix it.

Since I mentioned the cartoon series in my argument and since it is canon, this is invalid. You have not refuted my argument because I referenced things that remain canon in the Star Wars universe.





thebrightestshadow said:


> Naruto movies are canon, and they serve to address things that weren't in the manga..



We've had one canon movie, the Last. Are you saying all the others are canon?

Moreover, I just said that "They are canon. They aren't a part of the series proper. They don't fix the series proper. I never said they were separate continuity. I said they didn't fix the series proper because they aren't in the series proper. I didn't say they weren't canon.  I'm saying the series proper should have handled this in the series proper, not rushed the ending."

when the main series relies on something to do what it should have done itself, the main series itsweaker.



thebrightestshadow said:


> People consider Neon Genesis Evangelion and End of Evangelion part of the same story, you can't really have one without the other, they're both canon.  I.



Never watched them. However, the imdb describes Neon Genesis Evangelion: The End of Evangelion as the "concurrent theatrical ending of the TV series 'Shin Seiki Evangelion.'" This seems logical. The difference is that your example is the end  of another work and, thus, a part of the work. If Game of Thrones releases the ending of the series as a movie in theaters (which they likely won't), it is a part of the series proper and canon. Thus, it can fix the fact that the show didn't end. If Game of Thrones releases a movie about Dany's daugther becoming queen, then it is likely in the show's canon but not a part of the series proper and, thus, can't fix any problems in the show proper because it is the job of the show proper to fix itself, not rely on other works to fix it.

The end of the series is chapter 700. The rest is a continuation after the end. They're canon, but not the series proper. The series proper should stand on its own without having to rely on movies to fix it. Because in some ways it doesn't stand on its own, it is weakened




thebrightestshadow said:


> If you end with "congratulations" then it's fucking stupid. Then again the ending of Naruto manga was not that absurd..



Why? Main character's goal was to become Hokage. He's Hokage, so the series proper ends.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 14, 2015)

UchihaJaime said:


> I'm aware it is no longer considered canon with the Disney acquisition, except the cartoon series (which I mentioned in my argument) is canon. Despite being canon it can't fix the original work because it's not the original work and the original work should not need to be fixed because the original work must stand on its own without having to rely on other works to fix it.
> 
> Since I mentioned the cartoon series in my argument and since it is canon, this is invalid. You have not refuted my argument because I referenced things that remain canon in the Star Wars universe.
> 
> ...



I just don't think Orochimaru's fate or other things being addressed in the movie were important to the overall themes the original work was trying to convey, they were just unresolved plot points left over to be explored in sequel installments.  I really feel like people nit pick Naruto more than anything else.  I already explained why I disagree with the OP, I got a lot out of the story and I'm still pondering everything to get the full picture.  I think the story is undeniably convoluted, but I think things indeed stack up it's just very confusing.  As long as the movies address my questions and are canon I see no reason to be upset.


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## UchihaJaime (Mar 14, 2015)

thebrightestshadow said:


> I just don't think Orochimaru's fate or other things being addressed in the movie were important to the overall themes the original work was trying to convey, they were just unresolved plot points left over to be explored in sequel installments. .



Putting it that way, I can respectfully disagree. You're correct that from purely thematic perspective Orochimaru doesn't need to be shown. From a logical standpoint, a panel of him behind bars would have been nice.



thebrightestshadow said:


> I I already explained why I disagree with the OP, I got a lot out of the story and I'm still pondering everything to get the full picture.  I think the story is undeniably convoluted, but I think things indeed stack up it's just very confusing.  As long as the movies address my questions and are canon I see no reason to be upset.



I agree to a certain extent. I consider Naruto to be deeply flawed and don't think the movies can fix the series, but you're free to believe that they can.  I think this series is far from the worst I've seen. that would probably be_ the happening_.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 14, 2015)

UchihaJaime said:


> Putting it that way, I can respectfully disagree. You're correct that from purely thematic perspective Orochimaru doesn't need to be shown. From a logical standpoint, a panel of him behind bars would have been nice.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree to a certain extent. I consider Naruto to be deeply flawed and don't think the movies can fix the series, but you're free to believe that they can.  I think this series is far from the worst I've seen. that would probably be_ the happening_.


Naruto is one of the best stories I've read, it's full of awesome stories and characters.  People need to hop off the hate wagon.  I don't think the movies will fix anything, just offer more closure.  I am satisfied with the manga but I still desire more closure for the characters that didn't get enough.  If we're rating Naruto based on the closure it gave most of the characters in the end, yes it's pretty bad, but I really could care less as long as they appear in subsequent canon media.


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## Bender (Mar 14, 2015)

So....how the hell is it that Orochimaru has become the central focus on why Naruto is terrible? 



Seto Kaiba said:


> He engaged in human experimentation. On babies no less, I don't think his monstrous nature need further establishment. Anyone that isn't mentally challenged knows completely well why human experimentation is looked upon as a monstrous act. The fact that you think some brief shows of humanity balances that out says a lot on your poor grasp of these concepts.



Danzo also engaged in human experimentation. He made it so most of them couldnt rat on him with  by placing a cursed seal on their tongue

I'll also add that Danzo has like a dozen sharingan's on his eyes belonging to Uchiha. What 's your point?






> Obito WAS a complete monster. He murdered tens of thousands of people over something completely stupid. Being cherished and admired didn't stop him from committing his crimes.



Uhh no he wasn't. At first I thought he qualified as one but no he isn't. Kishi and the series made it clear multiple times those people with sob stories like him arent. Moreover, if Obito isnt going to be vilified on Complete Monster page for nearly killing Naruto as a baby then nor is Orochimaru .



> Manipulation is not the same as having ethics. A brief show of mercy does not discount the unethical nature that he carried throughout his life either. For the horrific things he did, Orochimaru faced no lasting consequences.



Sigh... There's Kabuto, whom he saved from being killed by Danzo and then there's him siding with Sasuke to save the ninja world.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 14, 2015)

Bender said:


> Uhh no he wasn't. At first I thought he qualified as one but no he isn't. Kishi and the series made it clear multiple times those people with sob stories like him arent. Moreover, if Obito isnt going to be vilified on Complete Monster page for nearly killing Naruto as a baby then nor is Orochimaru .


Obito was a Complete Monster for a long while since his sob story didn't excuse his behavior, it wasn't until he was redeemed he was off the list. Orochimaru IS still on the Complete Monster List due to killing the babies.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 14, 2015)

Bender said:


> So....how the hell is it that Orochimaru has become the central focus on why Naruto is terrible?
> 
> Danzo also engaged in human experimentation. He made it so most of them couldnt rat on him with  by placing a cursed seal on their tongue
> 
> ...



I notice that you have a hard time following discussion, his matter is one of many critiques if you have forgotten. One that you tried to dispute for the silliest reasons. 

Why do you keep bringing up Danzo as if there's any dispute to his atrocities? We are talking about Orochimaru, stay on point. 

Do you not think for yourself Bender? If Kishi told you shit tasted good would you believe him? Obito killed tens of thousands of people, and orphaned others. He's a monster. Nearly all criminals of all kinds have some kind of trauma or tragedy in their past that molds their being, it does not take away their monstrous nature. 

So what? That does not change a life of unethical and atrocious deeds.


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## Gunners (Mar 14, 2015)

You know, this thread really illustrates the value of age ratings. Most people above the age of 15 could read the series without their moral compass thrown off, but people of a younger age could be more impressionable. Unfortunately there are those who slip through the net, a bender to the expectation that people become less impressionable with age.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 14, 2015)

Bender said:


> So....how the hell is it that Orochimaru has become the central focus on why Naruto is terrible?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obito believed he deserved to die after Naruto convinced him to return to his original ideals, he had sinned and vowed to pay for those sins by helping them fix his mess with his life.  Orochimaru did help out, but he did so for selfish reasons, he just wanted to see what Sasuke would do in the end.

Have you ever heard of the phenomenon where anonymity makes people do things they normally wouldn't?  That was how Obito was able to become the monster he was as Tobi, along with the curse of Uchiha.  He was a monster and the manga doesn't deny that, the anime community is so goddamn dense.


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## Bender (Mar 14, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I notice that you have a hard time following discussion, his matter is one of many critiques if you have forgotten. One that you tried to dispute for the silliest reasons.



I'm pretty much in the discussion of Turrin for the lulz.




> Why do you keep bringing up Danzo as if there's any dispute to his atrocities? We are talking about Orochimaru, stay on point.



Yeah, and it's been stated that Orochimaru worked with Danzo for a long-ass time. The dude bearing Mokuton experiments on his body proves that he committed same atrocities. 



> Do you not think for yourself Bender? If Kishi told you shit tasted good would you believe him?







> Obito killed tens of thousands of people, and orphaned others. He's a monster. Nearly all criminals of all kinds have some kind of trauma or tragedy in their past that molds their being, it does not take away their monstrous nature.



Pain/Nagato also killed the entirety of Konoha and yet redeemed himself at the end when he resurrected all the villagers. If a person has a tragic background which is defining their actions. No, you do not place that person on the pedestal of being a monster. You projecting the concept of being a "monster" despite the fact that they're severely traumatized by an occurrence in the past. They may not be forgivable that however does not change the fact they're going to be sympathized by their party or the opposing party. If that is felt at all by *ANY* person that erases all possibility of being a contender for being a monster.




> So what? That does not change a life of unethical and atrocious deeds.



Obito became the loathsome Tobi after being molded by the traumatizing sight of Rin being run through by Kakashi's Chidori. Moreover, there's Madara planting ideas of how shitty the shinobi world is.



> Orochimaru IS still on the Complete Monster List due to killing the babies.



You know we have know exact timeframe on when and where this was done right? And the point still stands he worked with Root when he did this. Moreover, it's indicated he did it during his tutelage under Danzo. 

Orochimaru crying is still considered him holding feelings for Konoha and his mentor considering how he frowned on not being picked Hokage over Minato when he stood before the Edo Tensei hokages.

@Brightest shadow

Orochimaru having control over the Hokage he still nevertheless helped the alliance when he could have betrayed them numerous times.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 14, 2015)

Bender said:


> You know we have know exact timeframe on when and where this was done right? And the point still stands he worked with Root when he did this. Moreover, it's indicated he did it during his tutelage under Danzo.


That just makes Danzo implicit with Orochimaru's OWN experiments. Orochimaru's murdering of the 59 babies and his actions in Part I and II have solidified him on the CM list until he shows actual redeeming traits.


> Orochimaru crying is still considered him holding feelings for Konoha and his mentor considering how he frowned on not being picked Hokage over Minato when he stood before the Edo Tensei hokages.


Orochimaru gave exactly two shits about becoming Hokage. It wasn't his goal and he never desired the position in the first place. And he wasn't crying, that was a yawn.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 14, 2015)

Bender said:


> I'm pretty much in the discussion of Turrin for the lulz.
> 
> Yeah, and it's been stated that Orochimaru worked with Danzo for a long-ass time. The dude bearing Mokuton experiments on his body proves that he committed same atrocities.



Again. No one was disputing Danzo's atrocities. We are talking about Orochimaru. Bringing up Danzo does not invalidate Orochimaru's actions, since I need to point this out. 



>



It's a legitimate question given the logic you tried to throw out there. 



> Pain/Nagato also killed the entirety of Konoha and yet redeemed himself at the end when he resurrected all the villagers. If a person has a tragic background which is defining their actions. No, you do not place that person on the pedestal of being a monster. You projecting the concept of being a "monster" despite the fact that they're severely traumatized by an occurrence in the past. They may not be forgivable that however does not change the fact they're going to be sympathized by their party or the opposing party. If that is felt at all by *ANY* person that erases all possibility of being a contender for being a monster.



What is with your difficulty in grasping that bringing up other character's actions does nothing to discount or invalidate those of others? 

You like to say you are in criminal justice, but one of those most basic things you should have learned is that many criminals of all types suffer all kinds of traumas through their lives that make them who they are. Yet nonetheless they are still monstrous individuals based on their atrocities. 

People feel sympathy for Charles Manson, that does not mean he isn't a monster. The logic you are using is absolutely absurd, it's like you have no grasp on the concepts we're discussing here. 



> Obito became the loathsome Tobi after being molded by the traumatizing sight of Rin being run through by Kakashi's Chidori. Moreover, there's Madara planting ideas of how shitty the shinobi world is.
> 
> You know we have know exact timeframe on when and where this was done right? And the point still stands he worked with Root when he did this. Moreover, it's indicated he did it during his tutelage under Danzo.
> 
> Orochimaru crying is still considered him holding feelings for Konoha and his mentor considering how he frowned on not being picked Hokage over Minato when he stood before the Edo Tensei hokages.



His traumas do not discount his monstrosity. We've been over this.

Also, bringing up the actions of other antagonists does nothing to discount Orochimaru's this should be a basic understanding here. Just because he displayed what you think were brief glints of humanity does nothing to invalidate his actions. One that does human experiments, on infants no less, is a monster. One that murders thousands, for the stupidest reasons Obito did especially, is a monster.


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## Bender (Mar 14, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That just makes Danzo implicit with Orochimaru's OWN experiments.



And Danzo by the logic I'm seeing should also be a Complete Monster..

Sadly....however he is not. He's an asshole. That and Kabuto before being brought into the terrible world of shinobi along with his mother can attest to this.




> Orochimaru's murdering of the 59 babies and his actions in Part I and II have solidified him on the CM list until he shows actual redeeming traits.



As said before you can perfectly list that as happening during his time in Root. It was Danzo's usual modus operandi to be equal to Hiruzen and coast upon something which he didn't put more focus into.





> Orochimaru gave exactly two shits about becoming Hokage. It wasn't his goal and he never desired the position in the first place. And he wasn't crying,



Ahem...




Oh and he clearly did care...




I know we all like to obsess over some points but c'mon man. Don't be blind to content that shows there's more depth to a character.


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## Bender (Mar 14, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Again. No one was disputing Danzo's atrocities. We are talking about Orochimaru. Bringing up Danzo does not invalidate Orochimaru's actions, since I need to point this out.



And I'm saying Orochimaru worked on this project while in ROOT. Saying him doing so despite being in an official organization by association you would have to say that about Danzo as well.



> What is with your difficulty in grasping that bringing up other character's actions does nothing to discount or invalidate those of others?






> You like to say you are in criminal justice, but one of those most basic things you should have learned is that many criminals of all types suffer all kinds of traumas through their lives that make them who they are. Yet nonetheless they are still monstrous individuals based on their atrocities.



Sigh...

I'm speaking on the story's theme basis. 

Moreover, those that are trauma afflicted are still considered guilty however they're offered rehabilitation. Rehabilitation through getting the shit knocked out of you is how it happens in Naruto.




> People feel sympathy for Charles Manson, that does not mean he isn't a monster. The logic you are using is absolutely absurd, it's like you have no grasp on the concepts we're discussing here.



There has to be a unanimous verdict. It's the same with dictating who is an isn't a Complete Monster. If it isn't unanimous by the story characters then it shouldn't be for readers. We call it a hung jury when it isn't fully agreed by people. 




> His traumas do not discount his monstrosity. We've been over this.



It shows that there's too much shit in his mind other than straight-up sadism and being evil if you're going to call him a monster.




> One that murders thousands, for the stupidest reasons Obito did especially, is a monster.



Question: 

Are Obito and Orochimaru unanimously considered a monster by characters in the story? 

If it isn't unanimous then therefore you can't say with absolute certainty they're "a monster".


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## Kanki (Mar 14, 2015)

There's no denying that it became absolute trash at the end.

But I still loved it from chapter 1 right up until the end of the Pain invasion. I quite liked it after that also - including well into the war with Trollkage and so on. It wasn't until the 2nd half of the war when it genuinely became total crap. But I don't let that affect the great years of enjoyment I had from the series.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 14, 2015)

Bender said:


> And Danzo by the logic I'm seeing should also be a Complete Monster..
> 
> Sadly....however he is not. He's an asshole. That and Kabuto before being brought into the terrible world of shinobi along with his mother can attest to this.


Wrong. Danzo's motivations were altruistic in nature. He has redeeming qualities which Orochimaru _lacks_. Danzo cares about Konoha and wants whats best for it (making him a Well Intentioned Extremist). Orochimaru? He only cares about _himself_ and obtaining immortality so he can learn all the Jutus in existence. 

That's Orochimaru's entire motivation. He wants to become more powerful for the sake of himself and his own curiosity. 

Danzo sanctioned said experiments since he believed it could help out Konoha as a whole, no matter how misguided or monstrous it was. Orochimaru? Just wanted to experiment on that sweet ol'Hashirama genetic material so he could further his own goals.



> As said before you can perfectly list that as happening during his time in Root. It was Danzo's usual modus operandi to be equal to Hiruzen and coast upon something which he didn't put more focus into.


Again, what sets Danzo apart from Orochimaru is motive. Orochimaru cares only about himself. Danzo cared in his own misguided way about the entire village. 






> Ahem...
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


Ambiguous panels with no evidence to show Orochimaru has redeeming traits. Hell, for all we know it was a whim.


> Oh and he clearly did care...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, that panel clearly shows how much he doesn't care about being Hokage and the Hokage seat dude. Again, it was never his goal (if he became Hokage it'd be easier to do his illegal experiments) and he routinely mocks the position. Remember how he treated it during the battle with Tsunade?


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## Bender (Mar 15, 2015)

@SS12

It's hardly ambiguous panel with Sasuke and Orochimaru if he's "..."



> No, that panel clearly shows how much he doesn't care about being Hokage and the Hokage seat dude.



If he didn't care I'm sure he wouldn't be sulking about Minato being picked over him.



> Remember how he treated it during the battle with Tsunade?



That was back then and this is currently into the story.



EDIT:



> That's Orochimaru's entire motivation. He wants to become more powerful for the sake of himself and his own curiosity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

Bender said:


> And I'm saying Orochimaru worked on this project while in ROOT. Saying him doing so despite being in an official organization by association you would have to say that about Danzo as well.



Jesus Christ. 

Orochimaru is responsible for Orochimaru.

Danzo is responsible for Danzo.

They are both evil monsters. This is not hard to get. Just because you bring up Danzo in no way disproves that Orochimaru is a monster himself. 



> Sigh...
> 
> I'm speaking on the story's theme basis.
> 
> Moreover, those that are trauma afflicted are still considered guilty however they're offered rehabilitation. Rehabilitation through getting the shit knocked out of you is how it happens in Naruto.



You cannot try to disassociate the concepts we are discussing from reality, because it is through reality in which we are able to define and identify them. 

No, not all of them. It is dependent on their actions upon capture that determine rehabilitation. I know how it happens in Naruto, doesn't make it any less stupid. Nor does it help your argument in disputing that Orochimaru is a monster. 



> There has to be a unanimous verdict. It's the same with dictating who is an isn't a Complete Monster. If it isn't unanimous by the story characters then it shouldn't be for readers. We call it a hung jury when it isn't fully agreed by people.



That's the most idiotic logic you've put out yet. 

Just because Kishi tries to sell you something through the characters and story, is not the same as being obliged to buy it. People have a brain, people have a good idea of what constitutes a monster and Kishimoto applied actions and characteristics to particular characters in the story that fit the bill of being a monster. Orochimaru is one of them. 



> It shows that there's too much shit in his mind other than straight-up sadism and being evil if you're going to call him a monster.



Once more, sufferings and trauma do not discount a monstrous nature. Why is this hard for you to get? 



> Question:
> 
> Are Obito and Orochimaru unanimously considered a monster by characters in the story?
> 
> If it isn't unanimous then therefore you can't say with absolute certainty they're "a monster".



You're trying and failing hilariously, at mental gymnastics to avoid that they are monsters under every relevant means. Human experimentation, mass murder, these are just the basics of what makes a monster and Obito and Orochimaru have done both.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 15, 2015)

Bender said:


> @SS12
> 
> It's hardly ambiguous panel with Sasuke and Orochimaru if he's "..."


And we never got an answer. For all we know Orochimaru said 'a whim' and that's it.




> If he didn't care I'm sure he wouldn't be sulking about Minato being picked over him.


He's smiling and cheerfully telling Minato how he circumvented Shiki Fujin. Its not 'sulking' its mocking him.




> That was back then and this is currently into the story.


He's mocking both Tsunade and Jiraiya in that panel.




> When? Give me a citation.


That's his entire characterization _from day one._ You're injecting redeeming qualities into him when he has none.




> Citation. Chapter.


Its going by his attitude of when he brought it up when Kabuto asked about Yamato. Orochimaru has always had a curiosity over bloodlines.


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## Bender (Mar 15, 2015)

Any further discussion of this BS with Oro take it to thread I made. I'm more curious to talk on other points Turrin made on the series being "The worst".


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## Hexa (Mar 15, 2015)

A weird, poorly written essay about Naruto by Turrin.


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## db84x (Mar 15, 2015)

Fact that there are some people agree with this poor essay is much more scary


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## Hachibi (Mar 15, 2015)

>Say Naruto is the worst manga he has ever read
>Read Fairy Tail

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## The All Unknowing (Mar 15, 2015)

Put simply, I disagree that it's the worst fiction. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Did it contradict itself at points? Sure it did. But any story that goes on for a decent amount of time does. Probably a good reason I consider Cowboy Bebop the best anime I've ever seen is the fact that they had a story thought up from the jump and didn't try to continue to squeeze more story out of what they've got. For instance the origination of the term "jumped the shark". They had to try to keep escalating their powers and whatnot throughout. Though Naruto was never just a scrub. He was the son of the genius prodigy 4th Hokage, and the 9-tails jinchuriki from episode 1. Those easy powerups and "contradictions" were there from the very beginning. Had Minato and Kushina survived, he would have likely been considered a prodigy. Kakashi stated a while back that Naruto had an obscene amount of chakra that was constantly being used to restrain the 9-tails. So it's reasonable to assume that once he gets along with Kurama, not only does he obtain the ability to tap into his chakra, but he also can finally use all of his chakra as well. Even still. Aside from his powerups/genius lineage/being the reincarnation of Ashura etc. There's still plenty wrong with the writing of the story as a whole. But really, it went on for FIFTEEN YEARS. Of course it's gonna take some turns to the ridiculous. I can't think of any long-running show that didn't. I guess it's maybe just my personal experiences with long stories. Whether written, on TV, or movies, they've always gotten out of hand. I've just grown to expect it and overlook it in order to really enjoy the stories now. I've just accepted the ridiculousness. Yes, Naruto is ridiculous at points. Worst fiction though? Absolutely not. I thoroughly enjoyed it all the way until the end. But at the end of the day, it's different strokes for different folks. Just because I enjoyed it doesn't mean that you will. But for someone that followed the story for so long, I'm surprised that you would say it's the worst story you've read. Because it doesn't make sense to stick it out for so long with a story you dislike. But I can't understand how you view stories, similarly you can't understand how I do. I'm sorry to see that you feel like you wasted so much of your life on a story you genuinely dislike


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## ?_Camorra_? (Mar 15, 2015)

I agree its somewhere between Twilight and Bleach in terms of how worse its writen


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## wibisana (Mar 15, 2015)

Naruto is bad (2nd part) but overall it i not worst
I would say most disappointing Manga ever.

it is like Waking dead, it has solid 1st season, good Director, but then he sacked by AMC and just wanna make the show a cash-cow (lower budget etc).

yet people and me keep watching it because of good 1st season,


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## Hachibi (Mar 15, 2015)

?_Camorra_? said:


> I agree its somewhere between Twilight and Bleach in terms of how worse its writen



Comparing anything with Twilight is a insult to said anything.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2015)

In my opinion, a lot of you who are saying this is a bad series are saying it due to:

- Your predictions, particularly if you had big ones, being wrong every time. 

- Linking to the above point, the story didn't go your way. 

- Certain characters you were/weren't fond of were, or weren't portrayed in a way you felt they should have been.

- Certain characters you were fond of weren't given the attention you'd have preferred. 

- You were pretty invested in fandom pissing contests and the manga didn't help you as you wanted.

- Your interpretation of things were pretty wacky, and may still be i.e. Jiraiya being able to achieve Naruto SM feats of people who actually think Itachi is above Hebi Sasuke without Susanoo.


To be honest, as someone whose been on the forum since '07. I find it hard to believe a lot of posters' opinions would be based on anything substantive i.e. any thoughts about the series is heavily influenced by the shit they've been into in this forum. 
For example, I expect people who were *passionate* about Sasuke only having Uchiha powers and the Sharingan being the ultimate ocular power probably dislike how the manga went. I won't name any usernames but you guys know who you are. It extends to other fandoms too.

IMO bits of the manga were rushed and not enough attention was given to certain parts, though Kishi himself acknowledged it with the bizarre excuse of the characters wouldn't let him.

Basically I think a lot of NF critiques links to posters' own pet-peeves with fandoms/posters on the forum rather than anything to do with the series itself.


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## Bender (Mar 15, 2015)

Hexa said:


> A weird, poorly written essay about Naruto by Turrin.





Thread is now invalid


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In my opinion, a lot of you who are saying this is a bad series are saying it due to:
> 
> - Your predictions, particularly if you had big ones, being wrong every time.
> 
> - Linking to the above point, the story didn't go your way.



I know it's hard for some of you to process, but that is a distinct matter from a story being good. A story that can go in a direction one did not predict, or go one's way can still be good. Many are. On that same note, you can predict how a certain storyline will go, doesn't mean you think it will be any good. 



> - Certain characters you were/weren't fond of were, or weren't portrayed in a way you felt they should have been.
> 
> - Certain characters you were fond of weren't given the attention you'd have preferred.
> 
> ...



Or maybe they just had a set of standards on writing Kishimoto did not meet? Sometimes the simplest explanation is the most accurate one here.



> To be honest, as someone whose been on the forum since '07. I find it hard to believe a lot of posters' opinions would be based on anything substantive i.e. any thoughts about the series is heavily influenced by the shit they've been into in this forum.



Then your time here has been worthless, on that end. I've been here longer than that and I find that a lot of the critics understand the story every bit as an apologist, and that understanding led them to a more critical opinion of its writing.



> For example, I expect people who were *passionate* about Sasuke only having Uchiha powers and the Sharingan being the ultimate ocular power probably dislike how the manga went. I won't name any usernames but you guys know who you are. It extends to other fandoms too.



That's such a simple-minded way to characterize things. It comes off more as you try to reason to yourself why critics are the way they are than actually trying to make any true sense of the criticism.



> IMO bits of the manga were rushed and not enough attention was given to certain parts, though Kishi himself acknowledged it with the bizarre excuse of the characters wouldn't let him.
> 
> Basically I think a lot of NF critiques links to posters' own pet-peeves with fandoms/posters on the forum rather than anything to do with the series itself.



No...it's definitely the series.

Personally I have found those 'bitching about bitching' which are essentially apologists of the story, to be far worse than any critic. Mainly in that they have a hard time processing the fact that one could criticize this story.


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## Trojan (Mar 15, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In my opinion, a lot of you who are saying this is a bad series are saying it due to:
> 
> - Your predictions, particularly if you had big ones, being wrong every time.
> 
> ...



although this may or may not be true, but you have to consider that even if it's true, then it's not only 1 Fan-base that is bitching about their favourite character. If anything, that only shows that Kishi does not care much about most of the characters...


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2015)

Bender said:


> Naruto was able to master the Rasengan in a week (or semi-master in this case).  It was not that difficult as you're blatantly making it out to be.
> .


Rasengan is an A-Rank Technique. It took him a month, not a week, to just be able to use Rasengan in combat; he did not master it as he still needed the help of a Shadow clone to perform the technique. 

Sennin Modo is an esoteric art that Jiraiya despite starting his training at Toad Mountain in what seemed like his 20s-30s, could not master by his 50s. Orochimaru couldn't even get as far as Jiraiya, despite finding Ryuuchidou. Both are Sannin with vastly greater skil and knowledgel of Ninjutsu than Naruto at that time.

Now you could say Naruto was able to perfect SM quicker than Jiraiya and Orochimaru due to having a larger chakra supply, but Kishimoto subverts that by showing Minato was able to achieve a perfect balance of the three energies despite never being indicated to have an astronomical chakra supply like Naruto. Additionally even if I accept that for some reason Naruto's personal traits made it easier for him to learn Sennin Modo, the fact that he did so in a week still makes this ridiculous. I could see Naruto accomplishing it quicker than the 2 decades it took Jiriaya (and still not perfect), but 1 week is obviously the plot bending over backwards to give Naruto quick power up in time to face Pain; and I don't think that effectively expresses the theme of hard-work, like at all.

Granted it' doesn't subvert the theme as much as successive power ups did, but I see it as the beginning of the end.



> And again it's a case of how ninja work with the conditions that they're faced with. It's a consistent thing in fiction with ninja. Stop acting like Naruto is the only one who dealt with such a dilemma.


Your shifting the goal post here. The point isn't what is fair in the ninja world or consistent with that world; the point is that Pain being handicapped going into the battle is not a product of Naruto's hard-work, it's a product of Naruto being lucky.



> How was he stuck in CT? Pain was clearly shitting bricks when it looked like he was going to fight the Kyuubi's regular form.


How was he not stuck in CT. We clearly see that his body is still stuck in the CT ball:




> Naruto was defined by how he never gave up. He defined being a "determinator". TNJ was a sub-trait of his for hard-headed woobie destroyer of world fuckers.
> 
> Hell, Naruto was a master of TNJing people he met in battle in part I like Zabuza or those he beat to the ground like Neji and Gaara.


Yeah and previously Naruto used to TNJ people through his determination and hard-work, this was not the case here. 

To compare and contrast the difference clearly for you. Neji was a being an asshat, because he believed ones heritage and destiny decided ones fate. Naruto was able to TNJ him, by proving him wrong. Naruto through hard-work, despite being a dropout, defeated Neji someone born with heritage (Hyuuga Bloodline) and destiny on his side. 

However when it came to Nagato it was the exact opposite of that. Naruto beat Pain not through the efforts of his own hard-work, but due to getting a quick power-up in a weeks time, pain being handicapped, and Naruto having his ass saved by Minato's Ghost. Than when he encountered Nagato, he did not succeed in TNJing due to working hard to demonstrate another means to obtaining peace, that proved Nagato's ideology wrong. Instead he invoked destiny as the reason why despite having no real answer to give Nagato, that Nagato was still wrong, and he would inevitably be right at some point down the road.

This is literally how the TNJ goes down:

Naruto makes his speech and Nagato rejects it, saying he can't just believe in Naruto to eventually magically find peace:

_Nagato: You will try believing in that which Jiraiya-sensei believed in... // I see... so that is your answer. // What of us, then...? // Are you saying we should just sit and do nothing, trusting you to bring peace to the world?!
Naruto: .........
Nagato: Don't talk such nonsense! // How could I possibly believe Jiraiya's words at this point?! // True peace does not exist! // As long as we are living in this accursed world, it never will!_

Than Naruto evokes his birth right as the destined child:

_Naruto: And... the name of the book's protagonist... // ...is...
Naruto: Naruto!!_

And Nagato is than willing to open himself up to believing in Naruto, because Naruto's birth right and destiny was evoked.

That's not hard-work, in-fact it's the exact opposite thematically of how Naruto TNJ people in Part I.



> KN-6 form was Naruto attacking Pain. Even if Naruto was out of control atm, Akatsuki had come for the Kyuubi so it was in Kurama's best interest to attack Pain.


The manga-cannon literally states that the only reason no one died was sheer dumb luck. You can't than turn around and argue it wasn't, that is a denial of cannon. Again:

_*"Though we have only luck to thank for that..."*_

That's what the manga cannon tells us.



> Good fucking lord you really weren't paying attention to reading the story bro...
> 
> Yes, they blamed him for having the Kyuubi in him and there's also him being a trouble-maker to get their attention.


So I don't pay attention to the story, yet you admit what I said was correct. How does that make sense  



> The majority of the villagers were dead or injured. They didn't see him go berserk. Moreover, Naruto gave into the Kyuubi when he was angered that Hinata had been hurt (or killed for all he knew).


And that wouldn't be the talk of the town, that Naruto turned into what they always feared he would, and their lives were only saved by sheer luck. Come on, that's completely unrealistic and you know it.



> The battle Naruto waged against Pain was on the outskirts of the village rather than in it. Read again dammit.


No you read it again. I repeat:

_*"Though we have only luck to thank for that..."*_



> The battle Naruto as Kyuubi waged with Pain was not within Konoha. It was out of it. He didn't harm the villagers while Kyuubi.



_*"Though we have only luck to thank for that..."*_


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2015)

> It's not even about Naruto being accepted as a hero. You really think they should be bitch-like and tell Pain where Naruto is? That's the exact type of shit that defines a coward. Moreover, Naruto is a comrade who has fought for the village.


Again considering the villagers blamed Naruto when he was 8-Years old for the Kyuubi-attack, which he had zero involvement with beyond becoming it's container, yes I expect a great deal of them to blame Naruto for Pain's attack, even if it's not Naruto's fault. I expect even more of them to blame Naruto for going berserk, which actually is Naruto's fault.



> t's hardly luck. For what conceivable reason would Kurama taking over Naruto's body want to wantonly destroy bits of the village when his opponent was Pain (a strategic master)?


The manga tells you it's luck, you can't argue against that.

But if I must explain it to you. KN isn't Kurama in total control, it's Naruto in a berserk state:

_"But when it increases to 4 tails he loses the ability to distinguish friends from foes and his destructive urge takes over him. "_

KN4-8 Naruto is just him going on a rampage and attack anything in his path. He could have easily blast a Bijuudama  that killed countless innocent konoha villagers in that state. That's why the manga itself credits no one being killed to pure luck.



> Honestly, anyone would be pissed off if they saw their comrade struck down like Pain did to Hinata.


And every Konoha villager is suddenly the extreme rationalist you are. These being the same people who blamed and treated like a monster an 8 year old kid. Additionally there is a difference between getting angry and giving into an ancient demon, that you were already told and ouright demonstrated, could endanger those around you



> They're logical choices to guard Naruto. Nara clansmen and Aburame people. The last ditch effort of having Iruka was also smart. Though Naruto had become too smart and Tobi/Obito having Kinkaku and Ginkaku unleashed on battlefield drew Naruto there.


Yes a Fodder Aburame, Nara member, and a chuunin are the logical choices to protect someone from an organization that has people who could easily tango with Kages. Just stop dude, like seriously.



> See this is why Part II important because it showed that Kurama isn't just some brainless monster like you're making him out to be.
> 
> When Kurama was involved in any attack it was because he was attacked by others. The dude was enslaved by Madara when he attacked Konoha, then by Tobi/Obito.


Part II didn't show shit dude until thee actual arc where Kurama pulled his 180 and even than it came out left field. Nowhere prior to that was there any build up whatsoever that Kurama was anything more than, well a demon, let alone a wise cracking cute little disney animal that he turned out to be. 

At every point before that Kurama's is described as evil, malicious, and sinister force of nature. His chakra is compared to Madara's, he constantly tries to tempt Naruto into going berserk and endangering those around him, he only ever aided naruto out of self preservation, and he is shown continuing to try to massacre everyone in the village even after Tobi's control is removed. And gee let's not forget him trying to fucking kill a baby (I.E. Baby Naruto), and no avoiding being imprisoned for crimes he did indeed commit is not a valid reason to justify attempting to murder a fucking BABY!



> You really think he doesn't have a personality and just a monster? That same shit was how Kishi's brother Seishi based 666 Satan Lucifer and cuz of that the whole finale of the story was lame as hell.


Do I think that, no, i'm not an idiot sir. However did I think that, yes I did think he was a monster, until chapter 538, because prior to that chapter Kurama was consistently depicted as a demon. Not until that chapter when Kurama basically suddenly randomly became a kuudere was there any indication from him, ever that he was anything more than that.



> Naruto had earned Kurama's respect because of the feats he had executed over the years and thus the two became a team.


No he didn't. Kurama was still trying to fucking murder him and/or take over his mind during his training on turtle island, so those feats meant fuck all to Kurama, until chapter 538, where suddenly Kurama's character took a 180.



> Your points on the manga are all over the place. This is also a reason why the manga is "The worst"?


No the opening is why I feel the manga is thee worst thing i've read. This is one singular point that we were discussing, and FYI, "Your points on the manga are all over the place" is not a real counter argument, towards me holding the opinion that Hagoromo's power up was not in line with the theme of hard-work or Naruto being an underdog.



> Kurama even considered his actions as hard-work. Kurama was reluctant to help until he saw Naruto help Son Goku. That also established Naruto's concern for the bijuu as genuine.


Cool, and that in no way address the point that Naruto did not have to train or at all work-hard for BM/BSM, he simply got these powers because Kurama choose to cooperate with him. And no I do not accept that Kurama choose to cooperate with Naruto because of Naruto's previous hard-work, because he had already seen Naruto work hard countless times before, yet still consistently tried to mind-rape Naruto, until his personality 180'd. So it's not cause of hard-work that Kurama cooperated with him.

You can say it was because Naruto saved a Bijuu, but that is the plot manufacturing a set of circumstances that enabled Naruto to convince Kurama to cooperate, not a product of Naruto working hard to training and increase his skills for a power up, but just the plot bending to give him one. Not to mention there being absolutely zero build up before that arc of Kurama actually caring about his fellow Bijuu.


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## Milliardo (Mar 15, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> No...it's definitely the series.
> 
> Personally I have found those 'bitching about bitching' which are essentially apologists of the story, to be far worse than any critic. Mainly in that they have a hard time processing the fact that one could criticize this story.


this makes the most sense to me. its like people here refuse to acknowledge any and pretty much all negativity towards this manga whether its legitimate or not. even the biggest of issues with this manga is treated as a minor problem and easily overlooked. 

i can understand someone liking the naruto manga but acting like its damn near perfect with no flaws or just minor issues and claiming peoples only reason for not liking it is because their favorite character didn't get to shine enough is bit extreme. while i'm sure there are some like that i don't see how you could say thats the majority. basically you're saying for the most part only butthurt fanboys/fangirls didn't like the manga. does that not seem conceited and heavy biased to you?


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## Trojan (Mar 15, 2015)

> Now you could say Naruto was able to perfect SM quicker than Jiraiya and Orochimaru due to having a larger chakra supply, but Kishimoto subverts that by showing Minato was able to achieve a perfect balance of the three energies despite never being indicated to have an astronomical chakra supply like Naruto. Additionally even if I accept that for some reason Naruto's personal traits made it easier for him to learn Sennin Modo, the fact that he did so in a week still makes this ridiculous. I could see Naruto accomplishing it quicker than the 2 decades it took Jiriaya (and still not perfect), but 1 week is obviously the plot bending over backwards to give Naruto quick power up in time to face Pain; and I don't think that effectively expresses the theme of hard-work, like at all.



Minato has a massive amount of chakra. 

****

Kurama changed because Naruto did defeat him. His defeat made him able to see, or at least try to see Naruto in a different light/perspective. 

As for learning SM, Naruto is simply talented. From the first chapter he learned the clones, which is a jonin-level jutsu in 1 night by himself. He did improve the Rassengan to the FRS in a short time as well, and he learned the transferring chakra jutsu in a short time as well perfectly. I don't see why wouldn't he learn SM that fast like did with all those things.


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## Addy (Mar 15, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >Say Naruto is the worst manga he has ever read
> >Read Fairy Tail
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



man, i really have to read fairy tail one day to see how bad it is. funny enough, people talk allot about OP which is why i never read it........ it's like start wars fandom so they make me sick 



Bender said:


> Thread is now invalid



no, the thread is still valid.... but it's also stupider now


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## Trojan (Mar 15, 2015)

FT causes a brain cancer, if you value your brain.


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## Addy (Mar 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> FT causes a brain cancer, if you value your brain.



well, i have been following the new chapter for a few month now (not reading pages but just skimming the pages) and i can see why it's annoying but i can't see why it's so bad


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## Shadow050 (Mar 15, 2015)

i don't agree that Naruto is "the worst" generally, but under the criteria Turrin appears to be basing this assessment off of,he has an argument.

if i took his in properly, the assessment is given not because the story and storytelling were so terrible, but because it BETRAYED ITS THEME'S HEART AND SOUL in the course of the story.

i feel like most of you are taking ther story of other manga and saying 'it sucks' and the dialogue or whatever suck.... and then saying Turrin doesn't know wtf he's talking about.


i think y'all need to focus more on the WHY he said this here, and think of it under the circumstances he appears to be, and then decide what you think of his assessment.


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## Bender (Mar 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Rasengan is an A-Rank Technique. It took him a month, not a week, to just be able to use Rasengan in combat; he did not master it as he still needed the help of a Shadow clone to perform the technique.



Usage is still usage. Regardless of the way he utilized it, he was commended by both Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru for how he took out Kabuto with it. You're downplaying the holy hell out of it dude.

Even though Goku mastered the Kamehameha after seeing Roshi use it once. Goku's version was still ridiculously weaker than  Roshi's. Hell, even after training with Roshi, in the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai his version is weak as fuck. Roshi when powered up blew up the moon with it. We don't see Goku show potential of doing such until DBZ.



> Sennin Modo is an esoteric art that Jiraiya despite starting his training at Toad Mountain in what seemed like his 20s-30s, could not master by his 50s. Orochimaru couldn't even get as far as Jiraiya, despite finding Ryuuchidou. Both are Sannin with vastly greater skil and knowledgel of Ninjutsu than Naruto at that time.



*knowledge 

And holy shit you're downplaying it again.

Naruto however has the fortune of being a jinchuriki and he is able to empower the Sage mode with even more juice by combining it with his Kyuubi chakra mode. Even before receiving a power-up from Rikkudo Sennin the power Naruto gained through combining his chakra and the Kyuubi's allowed him to rival a incomplete Rikkudo form.





> Now you could say Naruto was able to perfect SM quicker than Jiraiya and Orochimaru due to having a larger chakra supply, but Kishimoto subverts that by showing Minato was able to achieve a perfect balance of the three energies despite never being indicated to have an astronomical chakra supply like Naruto. Additionally even if I accept that for some reason Naruto's personal traits made it easier for him to learn Sennin Modo, the fact that he did so in a week still makes this ridiculous. I could see Naruto accomplishing it quicker than the 2 decades it took Jiriaya (and still not perfect), but 1 week is obviously the plot bending over backwards to give Naruto quick power up in time to face Pain; and I don't think that effectively expresses the theme of hard-work, like at all.



Goku using the Kamehameha after seeing it once is more ridiculous than Naruto mastering SM in a week.  



> Granted it' doesn't subvert the theme as much as successive power ups did, but I see it as the beginning of the end.



...Sigh...




> Your shifting the goal post here. The point isn't what is fair in the ninja world or consistent with that world; the point is that Pain being handicapped going into the battle is not a product of Naruto's hard-work, it's a product of Naruto being lucky.



I'm not shifting jack, you're downplaying the holy hell out of Naruto's skill. Even with Shinra Tensei Naruto was able to find a way to win.




> How was he not stuck in CT. We clearly see that his body is still stuck in the CT ball:



Yeah, and then Naruto reverted to normal after his dad redid the seal. Naruto took the initiative and made Kage bushin who took form of rocky rubble.





> Yeah and previously Naruto used to TNJ people through his determination and hard-work, this was not the case here.



Naruto TNJing being a regular product of the climax of a battle was inevitable when we saw after end of Land of Waves arc.



> To compare and contrast the difference clearly for you. Neji was a being an asshat, because he believed ones heritage and destiny decided ones fate. Naruto was able to TNJ him, by proving him wrong. Naruto through hard-work, despite being a dropout, defeated Neji someone born with heritage (Hyuuga Bloodline) and destiny on his side.



Destiny doesn't have diddley to do with Naruto being able to jack-up Neiji. Naruto failed the graduation test and was able to do better than his classmates by doing the Kage Bushin which requires massive reservoir of Chakra.




> However when it came to Nagato it was the exact opposite of that. Naruto beat Pain not through the efforts of his own hard-work, but due to getting a quick power-up in a weeks time, pain being handicapped, and Naruto having his ass saved by Minato's Ghost. Than when he encountered Nagato, he did not succeed in TNJing due to working hard to demonstrate another means to obtaining peace, that proved Nagato's ideology wrong. Instead he invoked destiny as the reason why despite having no real answer to give Nagato, that Nagato was still wrong, and he would inevitably be right at some point down the road.



...What? How the hell did Naruto invoke destiny? Naruto pointed out how there's such a thing as peace it's just that Nagato had lost sight of it through years of corruption by Tobi/Obito and the original Akatsuki being ruined by Hanzo and Danzo.



> This is literally how the TNJ goes down:
> 
> Naruto makes his speech and Nagato rejects it, saying he can't just believe in Naruto to eventually magically find peace:
> 
> ...



Destiny is bullshit if it didn't mention and iota of Kaguya's existence. 

On Naruto Nagato TNJing: 

Naruto mentioned how it's important to believe. That's one of the key means to "endure" like the story repeatedly mentions. Nagato finds irony and finds it more than coincidental that Naruto says "If there is such a peace... I will seize it" like the character in Jiraiya's book says.

I'm going to ignore the rest of your post and expand on this because it's unbelievably retarded how people are not getting this. 




(Naruto holding "Tale of a gutsy ninja)
"He wrote this book to try and change the world".

When that book was a bomb on the market and didn't seem to be much of a hit with people and didn't seem too much of an influence Jiraiya opted to write Icha Icha Paradise (dirty novels) which showed that he had given up. 

However, Minato who was hopeful (much different from his sensei) believed that the name of the character from Jiraiya's novel "Naruto" was someone who was a greater inspirer of hope, and one to admire named his son after the protagonist.

Years later when we the reader are around part I Naruto has done plenty of amazing feats which are witnessed by Naruto's friends,enemies, sensei, villagers and both Sandaime and Godaime.

In part II in Search for Itachi arc when Jiraiya is near death he realizes that despite failing to save his friend Orochimaru, save his sensei and being rejected by Tsunade he accomplished something in being the originator of Naruto's name. The same protagonist of a novel who he believed would be a mover of the hearts of people. It failed in the book but his Godson, Naruto however proved more successful and his name is one that is carried everywhere in Konoha and the ninja world. This Naruto, Naruto Uzumaki like the protagonist of his novel was one that didn't give up and nor did Naruto.

What made Nagato realize his error was how one of the characters in the story that was inspired and named after Nagato was a supporting character and one who would act to guide Naruto.

Nagato's words that Naruto said also echo what Nagato said back then:





And during Naruto's fight with Pain



his words echo what the character of Jiraiya's novel based on Nagato said:


It's the person who never gave up on believing find a way to break the curse of the Shinobi world  that Nagato once was that made him realize how far he had fallen. 

That's the TNJ. 

Seriously. The fuck so hard to understand about that?


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## Kage (Mar 15, 2015)

Jetstorm said:


> I consider Naruto to be a highly flawed and largely botched work overall. It had been consistently trash for the majority of its run (Part 2 is almost double the size of Part 1) but even with all that it still isn't the worst long-running series of the last 15 years.



Pretty much.

I despaired over it's wasted potential a millennia ago.

Now I just laugh at any who are under the impression the ending somehow salvaged any of the series long gone integrity.


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## Bender (Mar 15, 2015)

@Hussain

Done and done.


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2015)

Shadow050 said:


> i don't agree that Naruto is "the worst" generally, but under the criteria Turrin appears to be basing this assessment off of,he has an argument.
> 
> if i took his in properly, the assessment is given not because the story and storytelling were so terrible, but because it BETRAYED ITS THEME'S HEART AND SOUL in the course of the story.
> 
> ...


Ding ding, we have a winner


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## Bender (Mar 15, 2015)

The reasons Turrin has for Naruto being the worst are...all over the place. He says Naruto isn't a hard-worker...says there are message subversions,you're listing shipping peeves, then Complete monsters not being punished and shit. 

Not only did I peg you on how you're wrong but your refutations of them are off and a case of you not properly analyzing the panels content clear enough.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

Bender said:


> The reasons Turrin has for Naruto being the worst are...all over the place. He says Naruto isn't a hard-worker...says there are message subversions,you're listing shipping peeves, then Complete monsters not being punished and shit.
> 
> Not only did I peg you on how you're wrong but your refutations of them are off and a case of you not properly analyzing the panels content clear enough.



That's not what "all over the place" means. All over the place implies a lack of consistency and organization, and while some of Turrin's points are suspect, such as NaruSaku being one of his points and that Fairy Tail is in any way good...most of his other points are similar to what the story is widely criticized for.


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## Bender (Mar 15, 2015)

Here's a challenge to you Turrin:

List at least one notable piece of the story that people are upset about and ask if it makes the story a nightmare for them and by extension "the worst piece of fiction".


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2015)

Bender said:


> Usage is still usage. Regardless of the way he utilized it, he was commended by both Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru for how he took out Kabuto with it. You're downplaying the holy hell out of it dude.


I said he didn't master it, which he didn't. That's what qualifies for downplaying these days 



> Naruto however has the fortune of being a jinchuriki and he is able to empower the Sage mode with even more juice by combining it with his Kyuubi chakra mode. Even before receiving a power-up from Rikkudo Sennin the power Naruto gained through combining his chakra and the Kyuubi's allowed him to rival a incomplete Rikkudo form.


And this has what to do with Naruto's training in the Pain-Arc  



> Goku using the Kamehameha after seeing it once is more ridiculous than Naruto mastering SM in a week.


And pointing out another instance that you feel is more ridiculous from a totally different fictional source proves, that Naruto mastering Sennin Modo in a week isn't ridiculous how exactly 



> ...Sigh...


What a compelling point your bring to the table 



> I'm not shifting jack, you're downplaying the holy hell out of Naruto's skill. .


I said Pain was handicapped, he was handicapped.  That's what qualifies for downplaying these days...



> Even with Shinra Tensei Naruto was able to find a way to win


And Naruto "beating" a handicapped Pain, proves Pain wasn't handicapped how exactly 



> Yeah, and then Naruto reverted to normal after his dad redid the seal. Naruto took the initiative and made Kage bushin who took form of rocky rubble.


And that explains how he magically teleported outside of the rock that was binding his body how exactly 



> Naruto TNJing being a regular product of the climax of a battle was inevitable when we saw after end of Land of Waves arc.


And that has to do with the difference in how Naruto TNJ'd people, how exactly 



> Destiny doesn't have diddley to do with Naruto being able to jack-up Neiji. Naruto failed the graduation test and was able to do better than his classmates by doing the Kage Bushin which requires massive reservoir of Chakra.


That was preciously my point. Naruto proved through hard-work and determination that destiny meant shit, which is how he was able to TNJ Neji. The exact opposite however is how he TNJ'd Nagato.



> ..What? How the hell did Naruto invoke destiny? Naruto pointed out how there's such a thing as peace it's just that Nagato had lost sight of it through years of corruption by Tobi/Obito and the original Akatsuki being ruined by Hanzo and Danzo.


By saying the reason he will bring peace is because he is Uzamaki Naruto, the destined child foretold in J-man's book.



> I'm going to ignore the rest of your post and expand on this because it's unbelievably retarded how people are not getting this


So basically your going to ignore my point and talk completely off topic about something inherently different like in every other part of your response, cool. 



> It's the person who never gave up on believing find a way to break the curse of the Shinobi world that Nagato once was that made him realize how far he had fallen.


So again, Naruto invoked his name, I.E. his birth right as the destined child in-order to TNJ Nagato into believing him when he said he would not give up. That's what happened. 

Again Naruto had already talked about not giving up and all that shit, previously, and Nagato said what am I just suppose to believe this shit. It wasn't until Naruto invoked his name within the context of being the destined child, that Nagato heeded his words. Literally it was Naruto being the destined child, that Jiriaya spoke of, in his book that made Nagato believe in him.



Bender said:


> Here's a challenge to you Turrin:
> 
> List at least one notable piece of the story that people are upset about and ask if it makes the story a nightmare for them and by extension "the worst piece of fiction".


It's not one point, it's many points that subvert what I feel is the heart of the story. So again off topic stuff from you that does not address my actual stance.



> he reasons Turrin has for Naruto being the worst are..*.all over the place*


Dear lord this is probably the biggest instance of Pot calling the kettle black i'ver ever seen, after that last post.

I mean jesus your responses in that last post were basically like this:

Turrin, "Naruto didn't master Rasenga"

Bender, "Well he didn't master it, but your downplaying him by saying he didn't master it" "Also Naruto ate five bowls of ramen one day in sixth grade, so obviously your wrong about an event in the Pain-arc"

@Kiba
I never said FT was good, I actually have pretty openly called it a shallow story.


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## Bloo (Mar 15, 2015)

Who cares anymore? The series is over. Praise the moments you enjoyed and move on. Furthermore, to claim Naruto is the worst piece of fiction of all time is such a large claim that it makes me think you're either just exaggerating for effect or you just haven't read that much fiction. Take your pick.


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## SoulFire (Mar 15, 2015)

A few of my cents to throw into the pot :




Turrin said:


> Again considering the villagers blamed Naruto when he was 8-Years old for the Kyuubi-attack, which he had zero involvement with beyond becoming it's container, yes I expect a great deal of them to blame Naruto for Pain's attack, even if it's not Naruto's fault. I expect even more of them to blame Naruto for going berserk, which actually is Naruto's fault.


During the Pain attack the villagers were up in the caves of Hokage Mountain, so the details of Naruto exploding into Sixtails was not known to them. Even on the battlefield only the Hyuuga and those whom they informed had any idea what was going on because Naruto had ordered them away from his confrontation with Pain. What they did learn was that Naruto in Kyuubi form had chased Pain away from the shattered village and in the end had defeated him. And for that they were grateful.



> KN4-8 Naruto is just him going on a rampage and attack anything in his path. He could have easily blast a Bijuudama  that killed countless innocent konoha villagers in that state. That's why the manga itself credits no one being killed to pure luck.


The villagers were out of the way, but Naruto could have taken out the shinobi who were scattered through the rubble of the village.



> And every Konoha villager is suddenly the extreme rationalist you are. These being the same people who blamed and treated like a monster an 8 year old kid. Additionally there is a difference between getting angry and giving into an ancient demon, that you were already told and ouright demonstrated, could endanger those around you



The catch is that the role of the Jinchuuriki was to do exactly what Naruto ended up doing: Defending the village against the enemy (and it seems that very few Jinchuuriki were in sync with their Bijuu like KB). Because the reason for Naruto going Sixtails was unseen and unknown by most of the Konoha Shinobi due to distance, I doubt that this was a reason for Naruto to be judged for his 'blow up'. 

Also, by the time of the Pain attack, the village had come to accept and acknowledge Naruto as one of their own (even though he was unaware of the fact). The old hatred was no longer there and Naruto was already viewed as a defending Shinobi of Konoha and the Will of Fire.



> Yes a Fodder Aburame, Nara member, and a chuunin are the logical choices to protect someone from an organization that has people who could easily tango with Kages. Just stop dude, like seriously.


Shino's father was hardly a fodder Aburame--not sure, but I believe he is among the leaders of the clan. Members of Chouji's clan were present as well, and the presence of Iruka, (who has a special connection with Naruto) as a fail safe made plenty of sense. Honestly, they were there to keep Naruto from leaving for the war front more than for his protection.



> Part II didn't show shit dude until thee actual arc where Kurama pulled his 180 and even than it came out left field. Nowhere prior to that was there any build up whatsoever that Kurama was anything more than, well a demon, let alone a wise cracking cute little disney animal that he turned out to be.


When considering just how long this manga was in production, I do not find it surprising that changes (retcons or what have you) were made as the story unwinds. Especially with the editorial interference Kishi often had to deal with.

I do believe that Kurama started out as a demon full of malevolent energy, but as the story progressed Kishimoto found that it was more interesting to have the creature embedded within his MC with more personality than raging hatred. Hence we see KB and Eight tails appear with their give and take, which provides an internal comradeship and chances for humor. 

I actually liked the change because it did make the relationship between Naruto and Kurama more interesting to me--I think Kishi should have gradually introduced the change earlier in the story, myself. It would have better transitioned hate filled Kyuubi to cooperative Kurama (same could be said with pairing developments, but the dye is long since cast in all of this).

If you take into account the reasons behind the hatred of Kurama (and all the Bijuu) for humankind and their Jinchuuriki prisons, it is understandable that over time they just didn't give a damn about humans and just wanted to be free and away from them.



> Naruto did not have to train or at all work-hard for BM/BSM, he simply got these powers because Kurama choose to cooperate with him.


While Naruto had access to Kurama's chakra, he had to learn how to use it and definitely worked steady at it on Turtle Island. Naruto has never been a slacker. He actually enjoys working toward a goal and honing his abilities and always puts his all into it. The big gimme that he got was the SoS hand off late in the story, wherein he actually did things such as healing Kakashi and Gai without understanding exactly how he did it.


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2015)

Bloo said:


> Who cares anymore? The series is over. Praise the moments you enjoyed and move on. Furthermore, to claim Naruto is the worst piece of fiction of all time is such a large claim that it makes me think you're either just exaggerating for effect or you just haven't read that much fiction. Take your pick.


How about I just hold a different opinion than you on what quantifies "the worst". As for moving on, I made 1 thread in this subsection in probably 4 months, I think i've moved on more than most people. I just wanted to express myself on this one issue I have with the series. And finally when it comes to praising it's good points, I do (Creativity and World Building), but I don't feel the need to completely ignore the negatives. I understand that maybe you and others wish to only talk about it's high points, which is cool with me, however I believe I made it abundantly clear by title choice that this would not be the focus of this thread, so no one trapped you into reading the OP or using any time on it; so I don't really see the issue there.


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## Bender (Mar 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I said he didn't master it, which he didn't. That's what qualifies for downplaying these days
> 
> 
> And this has what to do with Naruto's training in the Pain-Arc
> ...



I'm pointing out the difference in absurdity. Goku's is more crazed than Naruto's.




> I said Pain was handicapped, he was handicapped.  That's what qualifies for downplaying these days...



Pain couldn't use the Shinra Tensei for a while. Mid-way into the fight he regains it. Try again.





> And Naruto "beating" a handicapped Pain, proves Pain wasn't handicapped how exactly



Here's a hypothetical: if Pain was going to try Shinra Tensei of same magnitude do you really Naruto would just sit there and let him? 




> And that explains how he magically teleported outside of the rock that was binding his body how exactly





Pain stopped to see what was happening with the Kyuubi






> That was preciously my point. Naruto proved through hard-work and determination that destiny meant shit, which is how he was able to TNJ Neji. The exact opposite however is how he TNJ'd Nagato.



He proved how he and Jiraiya never give up on anything.

It was the same with the old Nagato.




> By saying the reason he will bring peace is because he is Uzamaki Naruto, the destined child foretold in J-man's book.



He says that both he and Nagato's old self shared the goal of achieving peace and not giving up.




> So basically your going to ignore my point and talk completely off topic about something inherently different like in every other part of your response, cool.



It's more interesting than the rest of the shit I'm looking at in your post.



> So again, Naruto invoked his name, I.E. his birth right as the destined child in-order to TNJ Nagato into believing him when he said he would not give up. That's what happened.



No he's saying both he and Nagato both thought that way.



> Again Naruto had already talked about not giving up and all that shit, previously, and Nagato said what am I just suppose to believe this shit. It wasn't until Naruto invoked his name within the context of being the destined child, that Nagato heeded his words. Literally it was Naruto being the destined child, that Jiriaya spoke of, in his book that made Nagato believe in him.



The destined child prophecy didn't come to Naruto until after the Pain arc. And even then prophecies aren't an entirely permanent foretelling of future events. Hell, Jiraiya even had a hiatus in-between.






> Dear lord this is probably the biggest instance of Pot calling the kettle black i'ver ever seen, after that last post.



(cough) (cough) recall shipping shit talked about near beginning of thread (cough) (cough)


Naruto's mastery of the Rasengan is in the sense he was able to utilize in battle. Whether he channeled in the same manner of Jiraiya is irrelevant.


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## Hachibi (Mar 15, 2015)

Addy said:


> well, i have been following the new chapter for a few month now (not reading pages but just skimming the pages) and i can see why it's annoying but i can't see why it's so bad



So you didn't read the GMG Arc.


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## Bloo (Mar 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> How about I just hold a different opinion than you on what quantifies "the worst". As for moving on, I made 1 thread in this subsection in probably 4 months, I think i've moved on more than most people. I just wanted to express myself on this one issue I have with the series. And finally when it comes to praising it's good points, I do (Creativity and World Building), but I don't feel the need to completely ignore the negatives. I understand that maybe you and others wish to only talk about it's high points, which is cool with me, however I believe I made it abundantly clear by title choice that this would not be the focus of this thread, so no one trapped you into reading the OP or using any time on it; so I don't really see the issue there.


It's not even that. It's simply that you calling the manga the worst piece of fiction is ever is such a huge claim that it's hard to take serious. You should know well enough that I not beyond calling out the manga on its faults. Part II was a complete mess thematically. However, it's still miles away from being the worst in fiction history.


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2015)

SoulFire! said:


> During the Pain attack the villagers were up in the caves of Hokage Mountain, so the details of Naruto exploding into Sixtails was not known to them. Even on the battlefield only the Hyuuga and those whom they informed had any idea what was going on because Naruto had ordered them away from his confrontation with Pain. What they did learn was that Naruto in Kyuubi form had chased Pain away from the shattered village and in the end had defeated him. And for that they were grateful.


I can't imagine that even if none of the villagers saw what happened, that rumor would not spread through their ranks.



> The villagers were out of the way, but Naruto could have taken out the shinobi who were scattered through the rubble of the village.


Dude TBB could have wrecked the villagers no matter where they were in Hokage mountain, though I don't remember that ever being explicitly stated in the manga; I actually think that is an Anime only thing.



> The catch is that the role of the Jinchuuriki was to do exactly what Naruto ended up doing: Defending the village against the enemy (and it seems that very few Jinchuuriki were in sync with their Bijuu like KB).


Dude nowhere was it stated that this is the role of the Jinchuuriki. Heck Deidara even mentions how Gaara was an odd Jinchuuriki to go so far to protect Sungakure. So it seems implied that rather than protectors Jinchuuriki were more like weapons of mass destruction to be unleashed in the enemies territory. And indeed that is how Kirigakure planned to use Rin after making her into a Jinchuuriki.

I especially do not think having a Jinchuuriki rampage around ones own village, leaving who lived and died up to luck, is the intended purpose for the Jinchuuriki.



> Also, by the time of the Pain attack, the village had come to accept and acknowledge Naruto as one of their own (even though he was unaware of the fact). The old hatred was no longer there and Naruto was already viewed as a defending Shinobi of Konoha and the Will of Fire.


When did that ever happen? Yes Naruto had touched a great many of the villagers, and change their opinion of them, but never was he shown changing the opinions of all the villagers in Konoha.



> Shino's father was hardly a fodder Aburame--not sure, but I believe he is among the leaders of the clan. Members of Chouji's clan were present as well, and the presence of Iruka, (who has a special connection with Naruto) as a fail safe made plenty of sense. Honestly, they were there to keep Naruto from leaving for the war front more than for his protection.


When I say fodder i'm talking relative to the class of enemy they were up against. Kabuto just invaded turtle island and demonstrated the ability to tango with a team of Shinobi that would fodderize the ones assigned to protect Naruto. Pain just wrecked the entire Konoha village. Even Kisame required Gai's 7th-Gate to be defeated. Shino's Dad, Random Amakichi, Iruka, and random Nara pale in comparison to that.



> I do believe that Kurama started out as a demon full of malevolent energy, but as the story progressed Kishimoto found that it was more interesting to have the creature embedded within his MC with more personality than raging hatred. Hence we see KB and Eight tails appear with their give and take, which provides an internal comradeship and chances for humor


I agree, Kishi retecon'd it, but I don't think the retecon occured until the final-arc, because prior to that there wasn't a single instance that even hinted at Kurama being the type of person he 180'd into during that arc. 



> I actually liked the change because it did make the relationship between Naruto and Kurama more interesting to me--I think Kishi should have gradually introduced the change earlier in the story, myself. It would have better transitioned hate filled Kyuubi to cooperative Kurama (same could be said with pairing developments, but the dye is long since cast in all of this).


I dislike the decision to make Kurama anything other than a Demon, but I wouldn't hate it, if it was built up more throughout the series, instead of Kishi doing the exact opposite and building up Kurama as an evil entity throughout the series. I mean we literally spent an entire arc about how Naruto shouldn't use Kurama's power previously in the series.

But ultimately while I hate that 180 Kurama pulled, that's not really the main issue I have, the main issue is how just TNJ'ing Kurama resulted in the quick easy power ups of BM/BSM. That to me does not reflect the theme of hard-work/dropout that was at the heart of the manga previously, at least not in my reading off the manga.

But again, what I have issues with other people may enjoy, that is their right to hold an opinion on something which is subjective. I'm just saying I did not.



> If you take into account the reasons behind the hatred of Kurama (and all the Bijuu) for humankind and their Jinchuuriki prisons, it is understandable that over time they just didn't give a damn about humans and just wanted to be free and away from them.


It is understandable. But it's not really cohesive with the rest of the story, as like I said prior to the final arc and maybe Hachibi's appearance in the Pain/Kages Arcs, the entire rest of the manga that Bijuu were portrayed as well demons. Beyond that even in the Pain/Kages are there was never narrative built that substantiated the Bijuu caring for each other or being beaten down by society, all of that came in the War-Arc. And to me that just gives the vibe that Kishi totally retecon'd the Bijuu to fit more aptly with his whole Juubi/Hagoromo retecon.

But again, while I dislike this aspect, it's not my main point.



> While Naruto had access to Kurama's chakra, he had to learn how to use it and definitely worked steady at it on Turtle Island


Oh come on man, he worked for a few days on turtle island to learn the basics of KCM. He than gains BM/BSM, which required no further training and just were a huge massive power boost, simply because Kurama decided to cooperate with him. 

You can't say that these type of quick and easy power ups at all jive with how Naruto had previously progressed in strength. Training for months or years to learn only a few skills or passive upgrades. It's fairly obvious that as we drew closer to the end Naruto's power ups became easier and quicker to obtain. For example it's basically debatable whether he increased his strength more in 1 week to obtain SM than he did in than every other much more grueling training session leading up to that; while with BM/BSM/Hagoromo Power Up that's not even debatably.



> Naruto has never been a slacker. He actually enjoys working toward a goal and honing his abilities and always puts his all into it. The big gimme that he got was the SoS hand off late in the story, wherein he actually did things such as healing Kakashi and Gai without understanding exactly how he did it.


SM was pretty big gimme considering it took a mere week to master. KCM even more so because it took like a few days to master.

BM/BSM, is enormous gimme, and Hagoromo's Power up is just plain out Deus Ex Machina.



Bloo said:


> It's not even that. It's simply that you calling the manga the worst piece of fiction is ever is such a huge claim that it's hard to take serious. You should know well enough that I not beyond calling out the manga on its faults. Part II was a complete mess thematically. However, it's still miles away from being the worst in fiction history.


I didn't call it the worst fiction in history. I'm pretty confident that Twilight and 50-Shades-Grey are much worse than it. What I called it was, the worst piece of fiction, that I have personally read. And yeah I've read other terrible stories, like Bleach and Fairy-Tale, to strictly keep this within the confines of manga, but i knew going into those that they had a fairly shallow story, but with Naruto it had a good story going in and than assassinated the qualities that made it good by the end of the story, which I find much more offensive


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

Bloo said:


> Who cares anymore? The series is over. Praise the moments you enjoyed and move on. Furthermore, to claim Naruto is the worst piece of fiction of all time is such a large claim that it makes me think you're either just exaggerating for effect or you just haven't read that much fiction. Take your pick.



Where do you guys get this idea that this section is exclusive to praise and circlerjerking now?


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## Alita (Mar 15, 2015)

?_Camorra_? said:


> I agree its somewhere between Twilight and Bleach in terms of how worse its writen


Naruto is objectively much better than bleach and Twilight.


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## Kai (Mar 15, 2015)

You said Naruto betrayed its themes and core concepts as a leading reason for its label as the "worst piece of fiction". But the only believable way you would find Naruto to be the worst piece of fiction you've ever read based on that idea is if you felt the series betrayed the time you invested in the series, which people know has been many years.

Really, the only way that jump in logic to Naruto being the "worst" is likely is if you invested time in Naruto more than any other series you've read, and you felt that massive amount of time was wasted. Extremity meets extremity. Furthermore, it's pretty unlikely any interpretation of the term "worst" can solely apply to Naruto while no other manga you have read fits such description - you have quite the collection of reads.


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## SoulFire (Mar 15, 2015)

Just to let you know, I'm a 'dudette'! 


Turrin said:


> Dude TBB could have wrecked the villagers no matter where they were in Hokage mountain, though I don't remember that ever being explicitly stated in the manga; I actually think that is an Anime only thing.


As I recall the villagers were evacuated to the mountain during the attack on the Chuunin exams within the manga--though the anime repeated such evacuations in several fillers.


> Dude nowhere was it stated that this is the role of the Jinchuuriki. Heck Deidara even mentions how Gaara was an odd Jinchuuriki to go so far to protect Sungakure. So it seems implied that rather than protectors Jinchuuriki were more like weapons of mass destruction to be unleashed in the enemies territory. And indeed that is how Kirigakure planned to use Rin after making her into a Jinchuuriki. I especially do not think having a Jinchuuriki rampage around ones own village, leaving who lived and died up to luck, is the intended purpose for the Jinchuuriki.



Weapons can and are used for protection. Yes, the Bijuu are symbolic 'atomic bombs' (which is why is is funny that Naruto was left to his own devises for much of his young life and treated with such anger--that's like kicking a container of unstable chemicals). The idea that Konoha's by that time beloved Jinchuuriki went tails up and drove an enemy out of the already destroyed village probably didn't disturb the populace that much. 



> When did that ever happen? Yes Naruto had touched a great many of the villagers, and change their opinion of them, but never was he shown changing the opinions of all the villagers in Konoha.


It was revealed early in the Pain attack on Konoha. Kishi illustrated how the villagers grew to appreciate Naruto over time, looking back on the Chuunin exams, Azbuza, the arrival of Tsunade, etc. Remember the FU Fodder? Even Ebisu refused to betray Naruto and admitted his acknowledgement.


> When I say fodder i'm talking relative to the class of enemy they were up against. Kabuto just invaded turtle island and demonstrated the ability to tango with a team of Shinobi that would fodderize the ones assigned to protect Naruto. Pain just wrecked the entire Konoha village. Even Kisame required Gai's 7th-Gate to be defeated. Shino's Dad, Random Amakichi, Iruka, and random Nara pale in comparison to that.


As I said, I think the group assigned to Naruto Watch were there to keep Naruto in more than to keep Atatsuki out. Hence Iruka's presence. The war was already underway and Naruto and KB were to be kept away from the battlefield. The guard team didn't expect him to be able to get past them and had no idea what he had achieved inside the waterfall training center.



> I agree, Kishi retecon'd it, but I don't think the retecon occured until the final-arc, because prior to that there wasn't a single instance that even hinted at Kurama being the type of person he 180'd into during that arc.


I think the retcon of all Bijuu, including the Kyuubi, was planned from the moment KB and his friendly partner Eight Tails made their first dual appearance. Kishi saw the positives of such a relationship and wanted it for Naruto.



> We literally spent an entire arc about how Naruto shouldn't use Kurama's power previously in the series.


At that point Naruto was not in sync with Kurama. Unless the Bijuu cooperates, it is a deadly dance to use its chakra. Until the power can be controlled so that it doesn't consume the Jinchuuriki, it is best not to take chances.



> But again, what I have issues with other people may enjoy, that is their right to hold an opinion on something which is subjective. I'm just saying I did not.


That's okay. In actuality everything about the worth of Naruto is subjective to personal preferences. I like character driven stories, so I can enjoy Naruto for the engaging characters even if the story itself has some definite glitches along the way.



> It is understandable. But it's not really cohesive with the rest of the story, as like I said prior to the final arc and maybe Hachibi's appearance in the Pain/Kages Arcs, the entire rest of the manga that Bijuu were portrayed as well demons. Beyond that even in the Pain/Kages are there was never narrative built that substantiated the Bijuu caring for each other or being beaten down by society, all of that came in the War-Arc. And to me that just gives the vibe that Kishi totally retecon'd the Bijuu to fit more aptly with his whole Juubi/Hagoromo retecon.


As I said, it would have better served the story to have been revealed earlier, but I don't think Kishi had Bijuu buddies in mind when he began the series. I think that he retconned the tailed beasts in order to resolve the problems Naruto had with the Kyuubi and because the relationship between the two provided an interesting new angle. The entire Ten Tails plot line seems to have been reworked more than once, so its difficult to say if it was an influence.



> The main issue is how just TNJ'ing Kurama resulted in the quick easy power ups of BM/BSM. That to me does not reflect the theme of hard-work/dropout that was at the heart of the manga previously, at least not in my reading off the manga. He worked for a few days on turtle island to learn the basics of KCM. He than gains BM/BSM, which required no further training and just were a huge massive power boost, simply because Kurama decided to cooperate with him.


On the island Naruto had to learn how to control the massive Kyuubi chakra and balance the use of it with his own. Once Naruto synced with Kurama he had the cooperation and immediate guidance of the Kyuubi itself and no longer needed to work at the moves or restrict chakra use. Given the point the story had reached, this was necessary. There just was no more time for training arcs.

I much prefer taijutsu so I could do without all the dbz type stuff, myself. 



> You can't say that these type of quick and easy power ups at all jive with how Naruto had previously progressed in strength. Training for months or years to learn only a few skills or passive upgrades.
> 
> It's fairly obvious that as we drew closer to the end Naruto's power ups became easier and quicker to obtain. For example it's basically debatable whether he increased his strength more in 1 week to obtain SM than he did in than every other much more grueling training session leading up to that; while with BM/BSM/Hagoromo Power Up that's not even debatably.


When you consider that in the beginning Naruto had chakra control problems due to his seal it is understandable that he had a more difficult time training. Eventually the seal problems were resolved, but Naruto still had to deal with an uncooperative Bijuu in his belly. By the time of his final power ups all of these difficulties were in the past and he was able to steamroll through training thanks to his own great stamina and his connection with Kurama.



> I didn't call it the worst fiction in history. I'm pretty confident that Twilight and 50-Shades-Grey are much worse than it. What I called it was, the worst piece of fiction, that I have personally read. And yeah I've read other terrible stories, like Bleach and Fairy-Tale, to strictly keep this within the confines of manga, but i knew going into those that they had a fairly shallow story, but with Naruto it had a good story going in and than assassinated the qualities that made it good by the end of the story, which I find much more offensive


William Faulkner's 'The Bear' is the very worst thing I have ever read--and it is classic literature. Nothing worse than a paragraph made up of one run on sentence! 

I find, as do most followers of Naruto (fans or no) that the manga ended far too abruptly and suffered from its length (such a long story, delivered in weekly chapters, is simply difficult to maintain in a cohesive, flowing manner). Still, because of my love of the characters, Kishi's artistic style and an ending that did not depress or disturb me, I consider it worth my time and my read.


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## Indra (Mar 15, 2015)

Not bad mate.


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2015)

Kai said:


> You said Naruto betrayed its themes and core concepts as a leading reason for its label as the "worst piece of fiction". But the only believable way you would find Naruto to be the worst piece of fiction you've ever read based on that idea is if you felt the series betrayed the time you invested in the series, which people know has been many years.


I think i've explained why I feel it is the worst and it's not the amount of time I put into it, it just how I evaluate what the worst is. 



> Furthermore, it's pretty unlikely any interpretation of the term "worst" can solely apply to Naruto while no other manga you have read fits such description - you have quite the collection of reads.


For me it doesn't. Now granted many series I'm reading aren't complete or I may have dropped, so perhaps they got or will get worst, but I didn't read those bits, so I wouldn't know. If you want to bring to attention other series from that list, which i'm overlooking feel free, but only if your going to discuss them within the same context of the OP, as if you just say, "I can't believe you think FT is better, when the characters, battles, and plot sucks so much", that is missing the point.



SoulFire! said:


> Just to let you know, I'm a 'dudette'!


My bad 



> Weapons can and are used for protection. Yes, the Bijuu are symbolic 'atomic bombs' (which is why is is funny that Naruto was left to his own devises for much of his young life and treated with such anger--that's like kicking a container of unstable chemicals). The idea that Konoha's by that time beloved Jinchuuriki went tails up and drove an enemy out of the already destroyed village probably didn't disturb the populace that much.


In the sense your using "protect" you are technically correct, I agree. However for the practical purpose of this discussion, we are talking about a Jinchuuriki going berserk in the middle of his own village, to the point where the lives of the villagers were only spared by luck. I don't think that is the way Jinchuuriki are intended to be utilize to protect. Rather like I said before I believe they are more utilized in the sense of being unleashed on enemy territory to weaken the enemy and thus eliminate threats to the village, that way.



> It was revealed early in the Pain attack on Konoha. Kishi illustrated how the villagers grew to appreciate Naruto over time, looking back on the Chuunin exams, Azbuza, the arrival of Tsunade, etc. Remember the FU Fodder? Even Ebisu refused to betray Naruto and admitted his acknowledgement.


I'm fully aware that Kishi (well Iruka) says that this is the case. However what I am speaking towards is how realistic that claim is. To me that claim is not at all realistic, and rather the plot is bending it's sense of realism heavily when it makes that claim. Basically I don't think it's realistic that as of the Pain-Arc every villager is so deeply in love with Naruto that none would turn on him due to the events of the Pain-Arc, which basically confirmed many of their suspicions, that Naruto could be a monster and would bring trouble to the village.



> I think the retcon of all Bijuu, including the Kyuubi, was planned from the moment KB and his friendly partner Eight Tails made their first dual appearance. Kishi saw the positives of such a relationship and wanted it for Naruto.


It's possible, but if that is the case Kishi really did a poor job of building to that with Kyuubi and Naruto.



> At that point Naruto was not in sync with Kurama. Unless the Bijuu cooperates, it is a deadly dance to use its chakra. Until the power can be controlled so that it doesn't consume the Jinchuuriki, it is best not to take chances.


I'm not referring to in the war-arc, but Yamato's comments in the Penis-Arc.



> That's okay. In actuality everything about the worth of Naruto is subjective to personal preferences. I like character driven stories, so I can enjoy Naruto for the engaging characters even if the story itself has some definite glitches along the way.


I also enjoy the characters, my issue is looking at the whole narrative, I feel it's horrendous.



> As I said, it would have better served the story to have been revealed earlier, but I don't think Kishi had Bijuu buddies in mind when he began the series. I think that he retconned the tailed beasts in order to resolve the problems Naruto had with the Kyuubi and because the relationship between the two provided an interesting new angle. The entire Ten Tails plot line seems to have been reworked more than once, so its difficult to say if it was an influence.


Seems like we agree about the reworking, but just not when, which it's like who knows for sure 



> On the island Naruto had to learn how to control the massive Kyuubi chakra and balance the use of it with his own. Once Naruto synced with Kurama he had the cooperation and immediate guidance of the Kyuubi itself and no longer needed to work at the moves or restrict chakra use. Given the point the story had reached, this was necessary. There just was no more time for training arcs.


Here's the thing, how is this any different than what I'm saying? BM/BSM were quick power ups that were a means to an end; how to get Naruto to the strength he needed to be at to overcome the opponents he was facing. It was not however an expression of the typical hard-work, training, etc.. that Naruto puts into receiving his power ups.



> When you consider that in the beginning Naruto had chakra control problems due to his seal it is understandable that he had a more difficult time training. Eventually the seal problems were resolved, but Naruto still had to deal with an uncooperative Bijuu in his belly. By the time of his final power ups all of these difficulties were in the past and he was able to steamroll through training thanks to his own great stamina and his connection with Kurama.


Naruto improving just means that he should be capable of learning higher order abilities. It doesn't mean he should be able to master SM, which Jiriaya/Orochimaru couldn't master in multiple decades in 1 week. Or being able to master KCM in a few days. And really doesn't hold any relevance to his gaining BM/BSM/Hagoromo powers.

Naruto improving, but still working his ass off was exemplified well in the Wind-Arc, and Kishi even managed to speed up the training there with a decent plot device that did not undermine the amount of work Naruto was putting in or the difficulty of learning such a technique. 



> William Faulkner's 'The Bear' is the very worst thing I have ever read--and it is classic literature. Nothing worse than a paragraph made up of one run on sentence!


Never read it, can't say. But it's shocking to believe Faulkner is the worst you've ever read, but again that comes down to subjectivity.



> I find, as do most followers of Naruto (fans or no) that the manga ended far too abruptly and suffered from its length (such a long story, delivered in weekly chapters, is simply difficult to maintain in a cohesive, flowing manner). Still, because of my love of the characters, Kishi's artistic style and an ending that did not depress or disturb me, I consider it worth my time and my read.


I actually think Naruto wasn't long enough and in Kishi's haste to end the story, he end up sacrificing the theme of underdog/hard-work, in-order to quickly get Naruto to the point where he could challenge the main villains. I honestly think the series needed another 700-800 chapters to be fleshed out properly, basically needed to be the length of one-piece.


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## rogersmattr (Mar 15, 2015)

Haven't read many stories where core themes and moral messages are completely during the reading. Turrin has more than valid criticism (to an extent).


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## Lucy75 (Mar 15, 2015)

LOL! My fucking sides!!   Honestly turnin or whatever the fuck your name is I didn't even bother reading the post after seeing the title. I can't even take you seriously after reading that.

You think naruto is the worst fiction in yet you read crap like dragonball, KHR, fairy tail, bleach, freezing, etc. which are all objectively worse than naruto? LOL!

Why do you butthurt naruto haters frequent this section of the site so much? 
Seriously, if you think shit like FT and detergent is so much better go hang over in those sections and glorify that shit. 

You and tonpa have gotta be the biggest dipshits to frequent this section. Tonpa isn't suprising at all since he's DBZ fanboy tho.

Just cause the manga didn't turn out the way *you* wanted doesn't make it bad nor does it stop it from being a masterpiece. Nobody worth a damn that frequents this section gives a shit about your opinion. Go jump off a cliff.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

Dragon Ball is better than Naruto, a more enjoyable series. 

Why do you people think this place is exclusive to circlejerking? 

A manga's quality or lack thereof does not have to coincide with how one wishes or does not wish to turn out (at least in the event-by-event meaning).

You know the least constructive thing is what you are doing. To bitch about the bitchers, at least the critics are talking about the story here. I mean, you can take some of your often repeated advice and pass by these threads since it's evident they bother you way more than the story bothers any critic. That goes for any like-minded too. Evidently, criticism is a very personal slight against you all and you can't deal with it rationally.


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## Lucy75 (Mar 15, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Dragon Ball is better than Naruto, a more enjoyable series.
> 
> Why do you people think this place is exclusive to circlejerking?
> 
> ...


Nope, naruto is better than dragonball in every way possible. 

And having a thread to voice criticisms every now and then is one thing. But the haters want to complain about the same shit all the time and never want to point out all the positives. The shit gets old and tiresome.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> Nope, naruto is better than dragonball in every way possible.
> 
> And having a thread to voice criticisms every now and then is one thing. But the haters want to complain about the same shit all the time and never want to point out all the positives. The shit gets old and tiresome.



Common consesus, and here no less, seems to lean toward my favor. Since you guys love such fallacious appeals. However, in terms of its influence, legacy, and overall appeal Dragon Ball is the better series. Naruto falls short on characterization and fell flat on expressing the themes Kishi intended for it to through the story. Mainly due to a poor understanding of the concepts behind those themes, and/or failing to take into account that there exists a balance of multiple concepts and themes when trying to express one. 

Well, the worse the story got the more vocal the critique. It's only natural. Considering the way it led to its conclusion, and the conclusion itself that is only going to be magnified. It's just something you have to get used to, and again as I stated, it is not something you have to deal with if you take it so personally. Were all Turrin's points agreeable? I don't think so, some of them were outright absurd. The 'worst story ever' is hyperbole, but there is some validity to his criticism.


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## Bruce Wayne (Mar 15, 2015)

This thread is weird.


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## Lucky7 (Mar 15, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> LOL! My fucking sides!!   Honestly turnin or whatever the fuck your name is I didn't even bother reading the post after seeing the title. I can't even take you seriously after reading that.
> 
> You think naruto is the worst fiction in yet you read crap like dragonball, KHR, fairy tail, bleach, freezing, etc. which are all objectively worse than naruto? LOL!
> 
> ...



Some of y'all really be getting heated about this  

Listen, most people (outside of rabid pairing tards) are not saying "Naruto is a piece of trash because the stuff I wanted to happen didn't happen.". People are saying Naruto is bad because the things Kishimoto decided to write weren't written well, some things flat out missed the mark completely. Most people in this and other threads are focusing on the bad writing within the story, not things they thought should have happened but didn't.

That being said, the original Dragon Ball is, overall, better than Naruto. Z _was_ a piece shit though.


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## Bender (Mar 15, 2015)

@Seto Kaiba

lol @ Dragon Ball being more enjoyable than Naruto. 

DB is pretty much always watched for an action boner.


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## Lucy75 (Mar 15, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Common consesus, and here no less, seems to lean toward my favor. Since you guys love such fallacious appeals. However, in terms of its influence, legacy, and overall appeal Dragon Ball is the better series. Naruto falls short on characterization and fell flat on expressing the themes Kishi intended for it to through the story. Mainly due to a poor understanding of the concepts behind those themes, and/or failing to take into account that there exists a balance of multiple concepts and themes when trying to express one.
> 
> Well, the worse the story got the more vocal the critique. It's only natural. Considering the way it led to its conclusion, and the conclusion itself that is only going to be magnified. It's just something you have to get used to, and again as I stated, it is not something you have to deal with if you take it so personally. Were all Turrin's points agreeable? I don't think so, some of them were outright absurd. The 'worst story ever' is hyperbole, but there is some validity to his criticism.


That poll doesn't mean shit since many people that voted were know DBZ fanboys/Naruto haters and I woulden't even put it past them to make dupe accounts just to add votes.

From what I remeber more people voted for naruto being better than DBZ entirely and better than DBZ mostly than those who voted DBZ being better entirely.

And no dragonball isn't better. It's too simplistic with awful characters, story/plot, and so on.

The bad points of naruto are also entirely subjective. The only thing I wish out of the manga was that kishi gave some more characters screen time. But the ending and pretty much everything else was awesome.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Seto Kaiba
> 
> lol @ Dragon Ball being more enjoyable than Naruto.
> 
> DB is pretty much always watched for an action boner.



Dragon Ball is more enjoyable than Naruto. Toriyama succeeded in what he set out to the story to be, and that fulfilled potential is what makes it the legacy-making series it is today. 

If you seriously think that tacked on pseudo-philosophical shit in Naruto was anything approaching depth, then you haven't read many stories. It tried to reach for a higher goal and it fell on its face attempting to do so.


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## Bender (Mar 15, 2015)

@Seto Kaiba

The motif Naruto was getting across was ninja enduring. 

It succeeded in doing that.


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## Lucy75 (Mar 15, 2015)

Lucky7 said:


> Some of y'all really be getting heated about this
> 
> Listen, most people (outside of rabid pairing tards) are not saying "Naruto is a piece of trash because the stuff I wanted to happen didn't happen.". People are saying Naruto is bad because the things Kishimoto decided to write weren't written well, some things flat out missed the mark completely. Most people in this and other threads are focusing on the bad writing within the story, not things they thought should have happened but didn't.
> 
> That being said, the original Dragon Ball is, overall, better than Naruto. Z _was_ a piece shit though.


No it isn't and the writting to naruto is excellent for the most part.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> That poll doesn't mean shit since many people that voted were know DBZ fanboys/Naruto haters and I woulden't even put it past them to make dupe accounts just to add votes.
> 
> From what I remeber more people voted for naruto being better than DBZ entirely and better than DBZ mostly than those who voted DBZ being better entirely.
> 
> ...



You move the goalpost when it's convenient to you. All you are trying to do is rationalize to yourself why the outcome is what it is than acknowledge what it plainly states. 

No, check again. More voted that it is definitely inferior than definitely superior. Then again, it seems like you guys are utterly incapable of defending Naruto without trying to shit on other series. 

Refer to what I stated to Bender. If you think that pseudo-philosophical diatribe was anything close to approaching depth then you have not read many stories. Naruto's plot fell apart, and contradicted itself in its themes and violated many themes entirely. The characterization in Naruto is the worst of the "HST", while plot is stronger than Bleach's.


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## Bender (Mar 15, 2015)

@Seto Kaiba

Turrin has moved the goal post more than anyone in his thread. 

First it was shipping, then it was on Orochimaru. What the shit?


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

That's not what moving the goalpost means...

Goddammit, Bender.


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## Lucy75 (Mar 15, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> You move the goalpost when it's convenient to you. All you are trying to do is rationalize to yourself why the outcome is what it is than acknowledge what it plainly states.
> 
> No, check again. More voted that it is definitely inferior than definitely superior. Then again, it seems like you guys are utterly incapable of defending Naruto without trying to shit on other series.
> 
> Refer to what I stated to Bender. If you think that pseudo-philosophical diatribe was anything close to approaching depth then you have not read many stories. Naruto's plot fell apart, and contradicted itself in its themes and violated many themes entirely. The characterization in Naruto is the worst of the "HST", while plot is stronger than Bleach's.


Just because you see the stuff that goes on in naruto as nothing more than philosophical bullshit doesn't mean everyone has to. I think there is much depth to the manga and there are very likely smarter people than you who read the manga and understand the deeper meanings better.

And I disagree. Naruto has much better characters over bleach. I'd argue one piece too. Only bleach characters I liked were yama and stark.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> Just because you see the stuff that goes on in naruto as nothing more than philosophical bullshit doesn't mean everyone has to. I think there is much depth to the manga and there are very likely smarter people than you who read the manga and understand the deeper meanings better.
> 
> And I disagree. Naruto has much better characters over bleach. I'd argue one piece too. Only bleach characters I liked were yama and stark.



PSEUDO-philosophical bullshit. When philosophical concepts are faithfully portrayed and handled in a story, it can often enrich it. Make it more compelling. When it does not it, undermines the story. It is all dependent on how well the author can understand them. You can see what Naruto is trying to get at, but in acknowledging that where you can see where it comes up short on those matters as well. Unfortunately, particularly as it pertains to the latter half of Part II its grasp on these matters became worse and worse. 

Bleach's females are better than Naruto's females by miles. Ichigo is not nearly as demented as Naruto, while the other characters are not particularly deep they are more likeable or relatable. One Piece has better characters and plot than both, not the best I've seen but it outshines its peers significantly.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 15, 2015)

_Naruto_ is better than _Dragon Ball Z_ due to the characters and characterization of the protagonists and supporting cast. Seriously, you could replace the rest of the Z Fighters with cardboard and there'd be no change in the plot when things went all Saiyan in the latter stages.

I have a feeling, ten years from now _Naruto_ will be as highly regarded as _Dragon Ball Z_ now and all of its hatred will be directed to a new series which will be percieved as shit but will be very popular.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> _Naruto_ is better than _Dragon Ball Z_ due to the characters and characterization of the protagonists and supporting cast. Seriously, you could replace the rest of the Z Fighters with cardboard and there'd be no change in the plot when things went all Saiyan in the latter stages.
> 
> I have a feeling, ten years from now _Naruto_ will be as highly regarded as _Dragon Ball Z_ now and all of its hatred will be directed to a new series which will be percieved as shit but will be very popular.



I'll take cardboard over the institutionalized, which half the Naruto cast may as well have been by the conclusion. At least you can do something with the former.

Unlikely. That is more One Piece's place, as it is right now.


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## Lucy75 (Mar 15, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> PSEUDO-philosophical bullshit. When philosophical concepts are faithfully portrayed and handled in a story, it can often enrich it. Make it more compelling. When it does not it, undermines the story. It is all dependent on how well the author can understand them. You can see what Naruto is trying to get at, but in acknowledging that where you can see where it comes up short on those matters as well. Unfortunately, particularly as it pertains to the latter half of Part II its grasp on these matters became worse and worse.
> 
> Bleach's females are better than Naruto's females by miles. Ichigo is not nearly as demented as Naruto, while the other characters are not particularly deep they are more likeable or relatable. One Piece has better characters and plot than both, not the best I've seen but it outshines its peers significantly.


Nah, I felt there was much depth in part 2.

And I personally enjoy female naruto characters personalities much more such as hinata, ino, tayuya, anko, temari, kaguya, and mei. 

And I find naruto much better as a character than ichigo. Espically in the beginning of the series and at the end.

The cast of one piece has appealed to me less after the time skip personally. Don and law are still legit tho.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 15, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I'll take cardboard over the institutionalized, which half the Naruto cast may as well have been by the conclusion. At least you can do something with the former.


Institutionalized? How are Team's 8 and 10 institutionalized? Or Team Guy? They are better characters than Kuririn, Ten, and Yamcha, and never were truly useless over the entire series. You're letting your own bitterness over Naruto blind you to Dragon Ball Z's faults when it came to characterization and interpersonal relationships.


> Unlikely. That is more One Piece's place, as it is right now.


How is it 'unlikely'? Both One Piece and Naruto are extremely popular and again, in 10 years people will probably look at Naruto more favorably. After all, if we were watching DBZ and reading it at the height of its power, we'd probably all be bitching on the internet and complaining about each and every little thing like we did every week in Naruto.


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Seto Kaiba
> 
> Turrin has moved the goal post more than anyone in his thread.
> 
> First it was shipping, then it was on Orochimaru. What the shit?


Well after this i'm sure your a troll, so i'm not going to even bother responding to your points anymore.


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## Platypus (Mar 15, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> You think naruto is the worst fiction in yet you read crap like dragonball, KHR, fairy tail, bleach, freezing, etc. which are all *objectively* worse than naruto? LOL!





Lucy75 said:


> The bad points of naruto are also entirely *subjective*.


​
Someone needs to explain me how they objectively rate a manga/story/whatever thing that involves not having a right answer.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Institutionalized? How are Team's 8 and 10 institutionalized? Or Team Guy? They are better characters than Kuririn, Ten, and Yamcha, and never were truly useless over the entire series. You're letting your own bitterness over Naruto blind you to Dragon Ball Z's faults when it came to characterization and interpersonal relationships.
> 
> How is it 'unlikely'? Both One Piece and Naruto are extremely popular and again, in 10 years people will probably look at Naruto more favorably. After all, if we were watching DBZ and reading it at the height of its power, we'd probably all be bitching on the internet and complaining about each and every little thing like we did every week in Naruto.



Yes, nutcases. The rookies were useless as much as the humans in DB were. Hell, at least the latter had a longer run before the power creep. Team Gai were all good characters, Shikamaru was too; the other rookies were either not noteworthy, or with Team 7, terrible. 

Many of us were watching it at that point in time. Also, Naruto's sales and popularity do not come close to One Piece.


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## Alita (Mar 15, 2015)

Platypus said:


> ​
> Someone needs to explain me how they objectively rate a manga/story/whatever thing that involves not having a right answer.


Lucy is definately right in that the bad points to naruto are subjective though. Seriously, naruto isn't that bad at all.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 15, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Yes, nutcases. The rookies were useless as much as the humans in DB were. Hell, at least the latter had a longer run before the power creep. Team Gai were all good characters, Shikamaru was too; the other rookies were either not noteworthy, or with Team 7, terrible.


What makes Choji and Ino bad characters? Kiba, Shino, and Hinata? They have actual characterization and unique abilities while the human Z Fighters were literal carbon copies of each other. 



> Many of us were watching it at that point in time. Also, Naruto's sales and popularity do not come close to One Piece.


Naruto's been outselling One Piece for a while now. Its also more popular in the US than One Piece is.

I know you hate the series Seto, but it kind of seems like you are being overly hard on it and ignoring that again, WE'D BE DOING THE EXACT SAME THING TEN YEARS AGO with DBZ or more.


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## Lucy75 (Mar 15, 2015)

Platypus said:


> ​
> Someone needs to explain me how they objectively rate a manga/story/whatever thing that involves not having a right answer.


I'm obviously not the only one with those beliefs since others have posted the same thing or agreed with me.


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## UchihaJaime (Mar 15, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> Lucy is definately right in that the bad points to naruto are subjective though. Seriously, naruto isn't that bad at all.



Yes. However, what is good about Naruto is as subjective as what is bad about it.


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> _Naruto_ is better than _Dragon Ball Z_ due to the characters and characterization of the protagonists and supporting cast. Seriously, you could replace the rest of the Z Fighters with cardboard and there'd be no change in the plot when things went all Saiyan in the latter stages.


Dragon-Ball was actually a very solid series, much in the same way Naruto Part I was. It was Z, much like Naruto Part II, that fucked the series over. Both series squandered their potential by introducing plot-lines and power inflation that undermined the tone of each series creating plot holes. The fundamental difference for me though is that Goku was a badass extremely talented individual from the beginning. The weight and impact of battles and the story didn't come from anything other than seeing how badass Goku could be. That an the sense of adventure, was what was driving the plot. And while Dragon-Ball Z had many missteps, that would certainly make me rank the series low on my list, it didn't betray those two concepts. Yes they were simplistic concepts, but that's why it was never going to be a master work imo, but again it didn't betray them.

Kishimoto on the the other hand rested the weight of battles and the story on Naruto being the underdog and not being extraordinarily talented in anything other hard-work and determination. It's seeing thee underdog succeed when the odds are stacked against him and achieving acknowledgement from those around him. But the series decided to do away with all of that, thus taking all of the heart out of the series.

So while both had flaws, I think ultimate Dragon-Ball/Z is better, and I also think the lack of heart towards the end of the Naruto-Series is what will ultimately prevent it from ever having the staying power and popularity of Dragon-Ball/Z.



> I have a feeling, ten years from now _Naruto_ will be as highly regarded as _Dragon Ball Z_ now and all of its hatred will be directed to a new series which will be percieved as shit but will be very popular.


I don't think this is at all fair. It wasn't like people were always bitching about the Naruto series. Back when I first joined the series was heavily praised, with few complaints. Yes there were a few complainers, but that's nothing. The amount of people complaining increased exponentially as the series went on, especially around the time of the Pain-Arc to War-Arc. That's when many of the best posters ether dropped the series, started complaining, or just became trolls, as the series began to alienate more people as it went on.

So it's not just that people "bitch", it's that the series alienated it's audience for a multitude of reasons as the writing imo got much sloppier.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> What makes Choji and Ino bad characters? Kiba, Shino, and Hinata? They have actual characterization and unique abilities while the human Z Fighters were literal carbon copies of each other.
> 
> 
> Naruto's been outselling One Piece for a while now. Its also more popular in the US than One Piece is.
> ...



They are not noteworthy. 

This is not a matter of dispute. One Piece is the highest-selling property Shueisha has next to Dragon Ball. It would be wise to remember that for one, most sales occur in Japan. Second, the USA isn't the only country in the world.


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## Platypus (Mar 15, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> I'm obviously not the only one with those beliefs since others have posted the same thing or agreed with me.



Wow! Others might have the same opinion? It must be fact then. 

What if my opinion differs? Does that mean I'm objectively wrong then?


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## Lucky7 (Mar 15, 2015)

> I have a feeling, ten years from now Naruto will be as highly regarded as Dragon Ball Z now and all of its hatred will be directed to a new series which will be percieved as shit but will be very popular.


Dragon Ball Z is regarded as shit by the majority of people who have seen it and the manga/anime community in general. Dragonball is the one with all the reverence. Unfortunately, most have only seen/remember DBZ. Dragon Ball Z is just notorious, not regarded as an actual quality manga/anime. Just like Naruto. Hey, maybe Naruto _will_ be the new DBZ


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2015)

Lucky7 said:


> Dragon Ball Z is regarded as shit by the majority of people who have seen it and the manga/anime community in general. Dragonball is the one with all the reverence. Unfortunately, most have only seen/remember DBZ. Dragon Ball Z is just notorious, not regarded as an actual quality manga/anime. Just like Naruto. Hey, maybe Naruto _will_ be the new DBZ



I think Z is still popular because it has time tested hype moments, like Goku going SSJ or SSJ3. I don't think that will be the case for Naruto, because unless the Anime does significant rewrites, I don't see people getting all that hyped up for any of the major battles in the War-Arc, due to the lack of heart I spoke off. I think Naruto vs Pain will go down as the last hype moment, that stands the test of time, even in the Anime.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 15, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> They are not noteworthy.


How aren't they noteworthy? Just because you don't like them, they aren't?


> This is not a matter of dispute. One Piece is the highest-selling property Shueisha has next to Dragon Ball. It would be wise to remember that for one, most sales occur in Japan. Second, the USA isn't the only country in the world.


I'm going by Japan's sales. Naruto volume sales have been surpassing One Piece's for over a year now, consistently outselling One Piece. One Piece...has hit its slump period hard with its current lackluster Derossa arc which has hurt it. Nto to mention its anime still hasn't improved in quality.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How aren't they noteworthy? Just because you don't like them, they aren't?
> 
> I'm going by Japan's sales. Naruto volume sales have been surpassing One Piece's for over a year now, consistently outselling One Piece. One Piece...has hit its slump period hard with its current lackluster Derossa arc which has hurt it. Nto to mention its anime still hasn't improved in quality.



They spent the majority of the story in the background. Chouji had a moment or two, but that's really it. 

You are making shit up now. You should have stopped while you were ahead: 



this



Yes, Dressrosa has dragged on, but not nearly as much as the war in Naruto did. Which did during that period see a slight drop in sales.


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## Rindaman (Mar 15, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Everyone knew he was gonna be Minato's kid. That was perfectly fine...but then they just stacked all this shit on him to reinject the fading relevance he had in his own story. Kishimoto completely lost his mind on wanking over the Uchiha he had to throw something just as bad in an attempt to balance things out.



Realest shit Ive ever seen you say. Rep.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

Also, Saiyaman, it is not about being bitter. Recognizing poor writing in Naruto is no different than recognizing poor writing in any other story like Fairy Tail or Sword Art Online. Shit is shit, and when shit is recognized it is called out as such. Naruto had a lot of shit.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 15, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> They spent the majority of the story in the background. Chouji had a moment or two, but that's really it.


All of the Rookies had moments. Hell Ino and Hinata saved Naruto's ass during the War and Ino was crucial for rallying the alliance. Kiba had his moment in Part I and Shino did too, they're the only ones who were truly neglected. 


> You are making shit up now. You should have stopped while you were ahead:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Weren't those before volumes 70-72 were released, since they got a huge spike in sales for Naruto for each.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Also, Saiyaman, it is not about being bitter. Recognizing poor writing in Naruto is no different than recognizing poor writing in any other story like Fairy Tail or Sword Art Online. Shit is shit, and when shit is recognized it is called out as such. Naruto had a lot of shit.


You are being bitter though. Any critique about Naruto you've raised hasn't really been a valid one. You're saying its shit when people who enjoy the characters point out that they're better than Dragon Ball Z, even when Dragon Ball Z fans point that out you dont' go 'okay, different taste'. You insist its shit and when people do NOT agree with you, you insist over and over again.


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## Lucky7 (Mar 15, 2015)

> I think Z is still popular because it has time tested hype moments, like Goku going SSJ or SSJ3. I don't think that will be the case for Naruto, because unless the Anime does significant rewrites, I don't see people getting all that hyped up for any of the major battles in the War-Arc, due to the lack of heart I spoke off. I think Naruto vs Pain will go down as the last hype moment, that stands the test of time, even in the Anime.


I think a large amount of Z's popularity can be attributed to the success of it's predecessor (like Naruto) and it's marketing in other countries (like Naruto). Similar to Part 1 of Naruto, the original Dragonball was wildly popular and successful in Japan, which set the stage for people's excitement for a sequel (which, if I remember correctly, I heard Toriyama didn't want to do in the first place). They read/watched purely for the continuation of the manga/anime they adored before it. I admit, Dragon Ball Z had the potential to be better than DragonBall as far as the lore and adventure, and in the beginning DBZ wasn't even that bad, but it fucked up. Just like Naruto. 

Also, Dragon Ball Z reached all over the world playing on primetime Cartoon Network (one of the most popular networks for children) for how many years? It had beefy dudes fighting each other and blowing stuff up, of course it was popular with kids. For some, it was their first introduction to this type of animation (where there's some semblance of a serious plot/action story that wasn't just for comedy). They marketed all types of bookbags, figurines, shirts, sleeping bags, it was basically like Pokemon. Naruto played for a shorter amount of time, but it was on primetime Cartoon Network in multitudes of countries and it had ninjas in it. Of course kids liked it, not to mention that Naruto Part 1 (which is the only Naruto that most people saw) isn't nearly as bad as DBZ when it comes to pacing and plot, so it was less frustrating to follow it. 

Dragon Ball Z has it's moments, but I think its largely still on the radar because of nostalgia and familiarity. I would watch a DBZ movie if it was good (because not _everything_ about DBZ is godawful), but most would still regard it as being a badly written series. 

Damn, Bleach really fell off bruh. Naruto is 6, OP is 1, and Bleach is 18?


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> All of the Rookies had moments. Hell Ino and Hinata saved Naruto's ass during the War and Ino was crucial for rallying the alliance. Kiba had his moment in Part I and Shino did too, they're the only ones who were truly neglected.
> 
> Weren't those before volumes 70-72 were released, since they got a huge spike in sales for Naruto for each.



They were all neglected. More devices than characters. 

No. 

this



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You are being bitter though. Any critique about Naruto you've raised hasn't really been a valid one. You're saying its shit when people who enjoy the characters point out that they're better than Dragon Ball Z, even when Dragon Ball Z fans point that out you dont' go 'okay, different taste'. You insist its shit and when people do NOT agree with you, you insist over and over again.



No, I'm being critical. I've raised numerous points about its storytelling and the contrast it has with Dragon Ball. If you want to be ignorant to those points, be my guest, but do not idiotically act as if I haven't raised them. 

Hell, the only reason we are discussing Dragon Ball is because you Naruto fans are so insecure you can't defend the series without shitting on another.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 15, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> They were all neglected. More devices than characters.


No, they really weren't. All the characters had their moments and character development in Naruto while Toriyama just went to do a few. 


> No.
> 
> this


And Volumes 70 and 71 weren't even on the lists you provided.




> No, I'm being critical. I've raised numerous points about its storytelling and the contrast it has with Dragon Ball. If you want to be ignorant to those points, be my guest, but do not idiotically act as if I haven't raised them.
> 
> Hell, the only reason we are discussing Dragon Ball is because you Naruto fans are so insecure you can't defend the series without shitting on another.


Dude, I'm a HUGE DBZ fan. I've always been one. But I've seen Naruto do things better than DBZ had done. All you've done is raise the shit points of Naruto and ignore its positive ones. You think DBZ has done everything better than Naruto and Naruto is shit without even acknowledging the good parts. In the end, you think your opinion is better than anyone else instead of just going 'okay, different tastes'.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, they really weren't. All the characters had their moments and character development in Naruto while Toriyama just went to do a few.
> 
> And Volumes 70 and 71 weren't even on the lists you provided.



Time for some elementary math, Saiyaman.

1,061,007

1,441,768

Which is higher? Take your time now! 

Your desperation is sad. Naruto never came close to One Piece's sales. 



> Dude, I'm a HUGE DBZ fan. I've always been one. But I've seen Naruto do things better than DBZ had done. All you've done is raise the shit points of Naruto and ignore its positive ones. You think DBZ has done everything better than Naruto and Naruto is shit without even acknowledging the good parts. In the end, you think your opinion is better than anyone else instead of just going 'okay, different tastes'.



I haven't ignored its positives, criticism of its negative traits is simply that. You cannot deal with confronting them that's more your problem. 

DBZ did what it set out to do better than Naruto. If you were paying any attention at all, you'd notice that I stated this multiple times. This does not mean it was a deep story, but neither was Naruto...Dragon Ball was a far more enjoyable one though in spite of it simplicity.


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## SoulFire (Mar 15, 2015)

On the subject of other manga: DB in all forms bores me to tears--especially the fight scenes and fight scenes are a favorite of mine (I find the villains particularly cringe worthy). Tried Bleach, could not get into it; OP doesn't interest me in the least. I don't care for the style and didn't fall in love with the characters. So _for me_ all three are less than Naruto (where in I have enjoyed the characters, much of the action and various plot lines as the story has progressed). It's all subjective to the reader: One man's treasure is another man's trash. 



Turrin said:


> My bad


Not the first time and won't be the last! 



> In the sense your using "protect" you are technically correct, I agree. However for the practical purpose of this discussion, we are talking about a Jinchuuriki going berserk in the middle of his own village, to the point where the lives of the villagers were only spared by luck. I don't think that is the way Jinchuuriki are intended to be utilize to protect. Rather like I said before I believe they are more utilized in the sense of being unleashed on enemy territory to weaken the enemy and thus eliminate threats to the village, that way.


What I'm saying is that under the circumstances, with Konoha already blown to smithereens, the fact that Naruto blew up and chased the cause of the village's destruction away and then put an end to him would not be looked upon as the act of a frightening monster but as a savior--which is what was depicted. He was already accepted by Konoha and his actions were looked upon as protective in nature.



> I'm fully aware that Kishi (well Iruka) says that this is the case. However what I am speaking towards is how realistic that claim is. To me that claim is not at all realistic, and rather the plot is bending it's sense of realism heavily when it makes that claim. Basically I don't think it's realistic that as of the Pain-Arc every villager is so deeply in love with Naruto that none would turn on him due to the events of the Pain-Arc, which basically confirmed many of their suspicions, that Naruto could be a monster and would bring trouble to the village.


I don't really worry about what is 'realistic' in a story like Naruto, but I will say that Naruto did have his doubters (the elders, Danzo and his Root). However, I'm willing to accept that the majority of the Hidden Leaf had begun to look on Naruto as a full fledged Konoha shinobi and defender of the village and by that view as a protector rather than a walking weapon.



> It's possible, but if that is the case Kishi really did a poor job of building to that with Kyuubi and Naruto.


As I said, development should have started earlier in the story.


> I'm not referring to in the war-arc, but Yamato's comments in the Penis-Arc.


I'm referring to everything prior to Naruto making amends with Kurama. Naruto had to avoid using the Kyuubi chakra for the sake of his own life and the lives of those around him.


> I also enjoy the characters, my issue is looking at the whole narrative, I feel it's horrendous.


Meh. Horrendous is a strong word. The final arc had some serious problems, but overall Naruto has been a fun ride.



> Seems like we agree about the reworking, but just not when, which it's like who knows for sure


Only Kishi and his editors. 



> Here's the thing, how is this any different than what I'm saying? BM/BSM were quick power ups that were a means to an end; how to get Naruto to the strength he needed to be at to overcome the opponents he was facing. It was not however an expression of the typical hard-work, training, etc.. that Naruto puts into receiving his power ups.


Just because Naruto took advantage of assets natural or acquired does not mean that he did not work to master abilities and techniques. He may not have had to work for as long, but he continued to put every ounce of himself into it. Just how Naruto is.



> Naruto improving just means that he should be capable of learning higher order abilities. It doesn't mean he should be able to master SM, which Jiriaya/Orochimaru couldn't master in multiple decades in 1 week. Or being able to master KCM in a few days. And really doesn't hold any relevance to his gaining BM/BSM/Hagoromo powers.


Here's where we look at Naruto's inherited Uzumaki stamina, which put him ahead of the curve when it came to SM. While he still couldn't properly utilize the Kyuubi chakra (or mesh with Fukasaku and Shima as did Jiraiya because of the Fox), his natural chakra stores and stamina made it possible for him to dive into toad oil without turning to stone and allowed him to train at an accelerated pace. His cleverness also allowed him to store SM energy in shadow clones as well. 

And just thinking back to that arc, Naruto worked his butt off to achieve that SM. He may have achieved perfect SM in a short time, but he put everything into it--and even slipped off after dark to train on his own!


> Naruto improving, but still working his ass off was exemplified well in the Wind-Arc, and Kishi even managed to speed up the training there with a decent plot device that did not undermine the amount of work Naruto was putting in or the difficulty of learning such a technique.


At that time Naruto was also incumbered by his problems with the Kyuubi chakra. Had he been in sync with Kurama at that time training would have gone much faster and been less of a hassle (poor Yamato ).



> Never read it, can't say. But it's shocking to believe Faulkner is the worst you've ever read, but again that comes down to subjectivity.


Trust me. As I said, an entire opening paragraph made up of a single run on sentence. The thing was unreadable.



> I actually think Naruto wasn't long enough and in Kishi's haste to end the story, he end up sacrificing the theme of underdog/hard-work, in-order to quickly get Naruto to the point where he could challenge the main villains. I honestly think the series needed another 700-800 chapters to be fleshed out properly, basically needed to be the length of one-piece.



Oh, I agree that the ending was rushed as hell and could have used a healthy amount of additional chapters to flesh things out properly (though seven to eight hundred more is stretching it, imo ).  What I'm alluding to is just how difficult I think it must be (especially considering this is Kishi's very first work) to stick to an original outline when dealing with a weekly series that stretches out over years. I can well imagine getting different, possibly better ideas as to plot points and in what direction the characters/story is going. 

I don't think Kishi originally planned for this manga to stretch into fifteen years and eventually bit off more than he could chew.  He likely also came up with new and better (to his way of thinking) angles and ideas, gradually (and sometimes a bit abruptly) moving them into the story.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 15, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Time for some elementary math, Saiyaman.
> 
> 1,061,007
> 
> ...


How is that 'not even close to One Piece's sales'? One Piece is higher but the amount doesn't look to be that big in the grand scheme.




> I haven't ignored its positives, criticism of its negative traits is simply that. You cannot deal with confronting them that's more your problem.
> 
> DBZ did what it set out to do better than Naruto. If you were paying any attention at all, you'd notice that I stated this multiple times. This does not mean it was a deep story, but neither was Naruto...Dragon Ball was a far more enjoyable one though in spite of it simplicity.


Except you're doing more than just criticism. Its outright bashing or downplaying the positives to assert your own myopia of it being a shit series. What did Dragon Ball Z do better than Naruto? Action which got repetitive but still fun? Naruto even at its worse still made new attacks and abilities while being interesting while DBZ kept its same old style. Characters? Narutos are better by massive amounts. Naruto's a better main protagonist than Goku since he actually cares about other people than fighting and doesn't get mad when he achieves power with help, instead being thankful for it. The rest of the cast is also superior since they all get their moments and development while DBZ's remained static even for the Saiyans. 

Again, different tastes. Just wait ten years and we'll have another series like Naruto that you'll be comparing it to and you'll be loading praise on Naruto while bashing this new series.


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## Milliardo (Mar 15, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> _Naruto_ is better than _Dragon Ball Z_ due to the characters and characterization of the protagonists and supporting cast. Seriously, you could replace the rest of the Z Fighters with cardboard and there'd be no change in the plot when things went all Saiyan in the latter stages.
> 
> I have a feeling, ten years from now _Naruto_ will be as highly regarded as _Dragon Ball Z_ now and all of its hatred will be directed to a new series which will be percieved as shit but will be very popular.


says an extreme naruto fan.. kishi hardly developed anybody outside of naruto and sasuke in part two. he also failed at pretty much all of his themes. its a joke to even claim this enduring theme i mean who doesn't endure shit? wow naruto toughed it out even though he really didn't fix shit like the manga claimed he would such a beautiful, sweet message. 

i would rather watch dragon ball ten times over before even considering watching naruto once and i'm far from a dragon ball fan. 

as for the bottom paragraph you have no right to type such a thing since most of you talk shit and hate on every other popular manga series that isn't naruto. yet you act like people in turn should treat naruto like some holy script written by god himself. that is very hypocritical of you naruto fans.


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## Rindaman (Mar 15, 2015)

It's funny how many of you call Naruto shit , yet  seem to love all of these trash series which are worse by comparison. 

Turrin has destroyed my faith in NF's consensus.


How many series would some of you consider better than Naruto , I need a list here?


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How is that 'not even close to One Piece's sales'? One Piece is higher but the amount doesn't look to be that big in the grand scheme.



That is for Naruto's final volume. The previous two did not sell as well. 

Look, you made a false statement. This was not something subjective here. 

If you took Naruto's overall sales last year and add the final three volume sales to it, it STILL wouldn't eclipse One Piece's sales of that year. 



> Except you're doing more than just criticism. Its outright bashing or downplaying the positives to assert your own myopia of it being a shit series. What did Dragon Ball Z do better than Naruto? Action which got repetitive but still fun? Naruto even at its worse still made new attacks and abilities while being interesting while DBZ kept its same old style.



The lack of self-awareness here is incredible. Stacked upon ocular powers, Rasengan, and chakra zords...yet I acknowledge the potential Naruto had here. Naruto had greater potential than Dragon Ball, but it did not realize it. 

Dragon Ball did have better action to me than Naruto, I did like the villains better than the ones in Naruto. Especially that Toriyama refrained from sob stories for them. Was it as versatile? No, but its content is more re-watchable. 



> Characters? Narutos are better by massive amounts. Naruto's a better main protagonist than Goku since he actually cares about other people than fighting and doesn't get mad when he achieves power with help, instead being thankful for it. The rest of the cast is also superior since they all get their moments and development while DBZ's remained static even for the Saiyans.



Goku cares plenty about people, but he does enjoy the fight which is one of the things I like about his character. He has a competitive spirit and a strong principle on what counts as a fair fight, so naturally he wants to get by on his own abilities and know his own limits. Yet that has not stopped him from getting help when he needs it. Naruto on the other hand is a demented lunatic talking about peace when his approach boils down to essentially "might makes right".



> Again, different tastes. Just wait ten years and we'll have another series like Naruto that you'll be comparing it to and you'll be loading praise on Naruto while bashing this new series.



You're talking straight of your ass on this one, pal. Like I said, the Dragon Ball of this generation is One Piece. Man, you guys really are incapable of defending Naruto without shitting on others. You apologists brought Dragon Ball into this discussion since you have forgotten already.


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## Milliardo (Mar 15, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> It's funny how many of you call Naruto shit ,yet  seem to love all of these *trash series* which are worse by comparison.


see people like this prove my point. 

it just goes to show you heavy biased people are involved in this naruto praising. one thread like turrin's and all of sudden you are enemy number one and basically just a blind hater with no real points.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 15, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> That is for Naruto's final volume. The previous two did not sell as well.
> 
> Look, you made a false statement. This was not something subjective here.
> 
> If you took Naruto's overall sales last year and add the final three volume sales to it, it STILL wouldn't eclipse One Piece's sales of that year.


Its still a lot better than what you'd think it is.




> The lack of self-awareness here is incredible. Stacked upon ocular powers, Rasengan, and chakra zords...yet I acknowledge the potential Naruto had here. Naruto had greater potential than Dragon Ball, but it did not realize it.
> 
> Dragon Ball did have better action to me than Naruto, I did like the villains better than the ones in Naruto. Especially that Toriyama refrained from sob stories for them. Was it as versatile? No, but its content is more re-watchable.


Thank you for going 'to me' finally, Seto. I've seen more creativity with the ocular powers, Rasengan, and the Chakra Zords than from the multitude of techniques from DBZ. The battles in Naruto are more enjoyable to me since they are more than just 'punch punch punch beam struggle punch punch'. 

Freeza is one of my all time favorite villains but Orochimaru and Nagato are up there. A sob story done right makes or breaks a villain, and Nagato's or Gaara's blows any out of DBZ's water. 


> Goku cares plenty about people, but he does enjoy the fight which is one of the things I like about his character. He has a competitive spirit and a strong principle on what counts as a fair fight, so naturally he wants to get by on his own abilities and know his own limits. Yet that has not stopped him from getting help when he needs it. Naruto on the other hand is a demented lunatic talking about peace when his approach boils down to essentially "might makes right".


...you dont' have a fundamental grasp of Naruto's character if you think he's a 'demented lunatic'. He identifies with other peoples pain and brings out their best qualities. He empathizes with others which is why people follow him and which is why people change around him. Your whole thing that he's about 'might makes right' falls flat since he had a chance to DO that against Nagato but chose to stay his hand. 

Goku cares about people, but his number one concern is fighting. Look at how he treated the Cell and Buu Arcs. Like they were big games. 


> You're talking straight of your ass on this one, pal. Like I said, the Dragon Ball of this generation is One Piece. Man, you guys really are incapable of defending Naruto without shitting on others. You apologists brought Dragon Ball into this discussion since you have forgotten already.


I'm not talking straight out of my ass. Both Naruto and One Piece will be viewed as the DBZ's of their era. And how many fucking times do I have to tell you that I'm a big DBZ fan?


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## Mikon (Mar 15, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> see people like this prove my point.
> 
> it just goes to show you heavy biased people are involved in this naruto praising. one thread like turrin's and all of sudden you are enemy number one and basically just a blind hater with no real points.



will Densetsu no yuusha no Densetsu get another season? 

As for the discussion in these last pages, i still cannot belive that some guys are calling DB a better manga than Naruto


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its still a lot better than what you'd think it is.



Yeah yeah...



> Thank you for going 'to me' finally, Seto. I've seen more creativity with the ocular powers, Rasengan, and the Chakra Zords than from the multitude of techniques from DBZ. The battles in Naruto are more enjoyable to me since they are more than just 'punch punch punch beam struggle punch punch'.
> 
> Freeza is one of my all time favorite villains but Orochimaru and Nagato are up there. A sob story done right makes or breaks a villain, and Nagato's or Gaara's blows any out of DBZ's water.



They devolved into which jutsu made the biggest bang. The fortunate side to Dragon Ball is that the fights were not plagued with excessive inner monologue and flashbacks to try and rile sympathy. 

DBZ did not have any particular sob-story villains. I appreciate that more than ever now. 



> ...you dont' have a fundamental grasp of Naruto's character if you think he's a 'demented lunatic'. He identifies with other peoples pain and brings out their best qualities. He empathizes with others which is why people follow him and which is why people change around him. Your whole thing that he's about 'might makes right' falls flat since he had a chance to DO that against Nagato but chose to stay his hand.



He's a demented lunatic. He devolved into that at least with Part II, his obsession with Sasuke is a huge mark on his character that only revealed its inconsistencies and faults. He became inhuman, to the point of getting defensive over statements made toward his parents' murderers when they were true. When he did not even know the guy, he went beyond that with Sasuke he used it as a means to make excuses for him. Yet it is kind of hilarious how you mention that when they undid that in that final movie to make him an oblivious idiot. 

Nagato was beaten down and made to listen, Naruto intended to do that with Sasuke and he has always had this approach. He never had any real answers to their inquiries. 



> Goku cares about people, but his number one concern is fighting. Look at how he treated the Cell and Buu Arcs. Like they were big games.



He is a fighter by blood and by heart, so naturally he relishes the challenge of new opponents. Even moreso, on the protecting Earth part he wants those capable of defending it when he's gone, as he desired with his sons. 



> I'm not talking straight out of my ass. Both Naruto and One Piece will be viewed as the DBZ's of their era. And how many fucking times do I have to tell you that I'm a big DBZ fan?



I'm telling you the reality of the matter, One Piece is the Dragon Ball of this generation.


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## Punished Kiba (Mar 15, 2015)

It's sad. I think it's obvious that Kishi Had no Idea what to do with most of his characters (especially when it came to the war arc).

Destroyed Themes, Destroyed characters, Under utilised Characters and Over Praised Characters

Truly a Sign of a Bad Author.

In the end, He ended it with Fanservice Hype so that SP can continue to milk money out of this Dead beat story. 

The Only thing I still enjoy from this series is Fanart from the fandom


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## Harbour (Mar 15, 2015)

But yeah, while Naruto is bad manga, it can't beat the Shit Tail. 
Shit Fail is like the all mass of shit coming out of the toilet and compressed into the magazine's paper which editors added to the Weekly Shounen Magazine. Sad but true.


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## Lucky7 (Mar 15, 2015)

Never really wanted to get into Fairy Tail because it didn't look like my kind of thing, but damn is it really that bad :


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## Kage (Mar 15, 2015)

It's more gratuitous fanservice than anything else really.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 15, 2015)

Kage said:


> It's more gratuitous fanservice than anything else really.



History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi had it too, but I liked its martial arts theme at first...then it became more and more fanservice, and then it expanded into *depraved* fanservice and I just couldn't bother anymore.


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## Zef (Mar 15, 2015)

Bookmark this thread folks.

Half the people shitting on the series in this thread will read the mini one come Spring. It's amusing how people can't stay away from something they supposedly hate.:ho

I'm not going to pretend that this manga is great; the War Arc was terrible, and the manga was on the decline a little before that.  However I see some people who are hating on the manga, and aren't giving the true reason why.


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## Kage (Mar 15, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi had it too, but I liked its martial arts theme at first...then it became more and more fanservice, and then it expanded into *depraved* fanservice and I just couldn't bother anymore.



Yeah it's the kind of thing that needs to be done in moderation if it's necessary at all.

Overall I think Naruto's biggest folly when comparing it to other series like FT and DB is neither of those attempted to take themselves as seriously?

Naruto had it's comedic lighthearted moments sure but was trying to push themes about bonds and shit. Themes Kishi forgot how to execute halfway decently.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 15, 2015)

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.....

The concepts set it place in part 1, couldn't hold, as the manga made a drastic shift in part 2, when having the Mangekyou or higher meant achieving super saiyan status or higher.

What you are forgetting opening is that Naruto's character was meant to align with that of Sasuke, in which the later had a SET PATH, power and development wise. Remember the dark days of Uchiha > Your favorite character? Remember all the hater garnered towards the Uchiha/Sharingan for being so OP? Remember when the Rinnegan/Pain entered the picture and provided the anti-sharingan/Uchiha crowd some character to root for or back? Naruto becoming who he became was not only a necessity for his fan base, but prior to becoming the COP, he was largely irrelevant within his own story. End of part 2, 1/3 of part 2, what was he doing? Chasing Sasuke? I fact in which most Naruto fans begrudge.

The reality is that Naruto needed more than hardwork to match Sasuke, who was simply taking the power ups of his benchmarks, who so happen to be big baddies of the manga. Throughout the manga we were told and shown that Sasuke/the Uchiha, and Kishi opted to match that with the Senju. 

What I don't understand Turrin is as smart as you are, how could you have missed the boat: By the in this manga, the only powers ups that were relevant were Dojutsu power, Biju Power, and HIGH LEVEL Kekai Genkai's....
Hell, even Kishi stop giving a fuck when the eight gates was allowed to match Juubi Madara, JUUBI FUCKING MADARA.


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## Tapion (Mar 15, 2015)

Naruto went from a great manga to a sub-par manga. I'd say the war arc did the most damage for me. It does have its great moments and some oh so terrible ones, comparing it to other subjectively or objectively sup-par manga won't make it any better. 

Remember, shit being better than shit doesn't make shit any less shit.


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## ch1p (Mar 16, 2015)

I was going to mock OP for being a bitter NaruSaku tard, but I actually agree with most of his assessment of Naruto as a character. I agree on the underdog and the destiny mentions. It was all kinds of ridiculous. Shit, yo.

However, the disagreement: 

1. SasuSaku happened, so neither Sakura and Sasuke change their feelings and relationship to accomodate Naruto's.

Sakura did acknowledge Naruto, quite extensively in fact, so OP is utterly wrong about that assessment. Just not romantically and there's nothing wrong with it because Sakura's her own character, with her own dreams, feelings and goals, not a prop for the main character.

On the other hand, Sasuke is the fallen hero archetype who is the main character's rival, but he wasn't punished for being the rival of the main character. He ends up with the girl that wanted him (over the hero) and that he himself wanted, and whom he acknowledged as important to him many times before.

*OP complains Naruto's speshulness impacted too much, TnJ too much people over ridiculous reasons. Yet, that speshulness that didn't impact the ending game pairings. Sakura still loved Sasuke despite Naruto being speshul. Sasuke still got to have his happy ending, despite Naruto being speshul.*

2. The story was never about punishing people for being dicks but about bonds being so strong. This is something people often pen the series as, because at that point is unrealistic.

SS completely abides to this. Sakura always loved Sasuke, Sasuke gave plenty of hints he loved her back (or cared about her, for the most in denial skeptic) and this never changed.

Sasuke and Naruto have always been advertised as equals, over and over again, even their last powerup is this. Their final fight was actually a draw and they end up as relatively the same (even their injuries mirror each other).

*OP compains about story contradicting itself, but in SasuSaku happening and Sasuke being an equal to main character doesn't do that at all. It abides by the manga's thematic rules.*

3. OP complains about Naruto being too much of a copy of former shonens.

Sakura didn't chose Naruto, the main character, but the anti-hero. The heroine not chosing main character is uncommon in shonen.

Sasuke managed to draw his last fight with Naruto, the main character. The anti-hero / villain ending at a relatively same place is also unheard of in shonen. He also ended up not being punished by having the girl he liked taken away from him.

*OP rambles about how the story lost its flair when it 'morphed into former shonen', but then is upset at the plot points, SasuSaku, Sasuke being Naruto's equal, which differentiate it from former shonen.*

So, I can't take that part of his criticism seriously.



Saikyou said:


> >freezing
> >bleach
> >fairy tail
> >agk


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 16, 2015)

99% of all things are unentertaining and shitty, Naruto happens to be entertaining and interesting, saying otherwise is a goddamn joke considering what brought you here.  Saying its the worst piece of fiction makes you look like a complete dumb fuck, you love it and obsessed over it enough to over think it and post about it, debate about it, read into it.  I don't do that shit with One Piece because it's a stupid comic and the characters are stereotypical and boring.


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## Bloo (Mar 16, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Where do you guys get this idea that this section is exclusive to praise and circlerjerking now?


Never said that. In fact, I've done anything but praise the manga for the past few years. However, I do find it a bit of an exaggeration to call it one of the worst pieces of fiction ever. Was it an overall good series? I'd say yes because I enjoyed it for a very long time. Was it consistently good? Hell no. Is there a lot wrong with it? Hell yes. But, just derailing it just seems tiresome when the point is just so obviously there and with its conclusion final.

Are people actually arguing that DBZ served a better plot than Naruto? DBZ is fun for comedy and action. Its plot was complete shit. It featured an array of entirely static characters and plot pieces and took no risks to change that.


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## Trojan (Mar 16, 2015)

> =Turrin;53097217]*INTRO*​
> Ultimately this resulted in battles that long promised to hold emotional weight and depth, coming of flat, monotone, and more than anything else just going through the motions. Naruto defeating the main antagonist no longer held the weight it was long intended to, of Naruto actualizing his goal of becoming Hokage despite his dropout nature, because by than he was no longer a drop out, he was like all the other Goku clones that came before him, simply achieving his legacy; a legacy passed down to him via his father the previous Hokage and being the destined reincarnation of Ashura. In-fact the emotional weight of Naruto achieving the Hokage title was so undermined at that point, that when Kishimoto didn't even bother to show Naruto actually being crowned Hokage and wearing that mantel into battle, there was really no love loss for me, as the emotional weight was already long gone.


How do you want Naruto to be a drop out, and become an acknowledged Hokage at the same time?
Or actually, how would you do it if you were Kishi, Turrin? 



> I also found myself not caring, when Kishimoto only had Naruto achieve a symbolic and ultimately cop out style of victory over Sasuke, despite Naruto finally besting his rival being one of the most hyped and built up moments in the entire series, because that weight was again long gone.


Naruto won the fight though as Sasuke admitted his defeat. Also, you must take in considerations the MASSIVE disadvantages that Kishi putted Naruto at in that fight as well. Like

1- Naruto not wanting to Kill Sasuke the entire fight. On the other hand Sasuke was trying to kill him.
2- Naruto not using any of the Bijuus except for Kurama, while making Sasuke use all 9 of them.
3- Naruto being already exhausted from the War as Kurama pointed out.
4- Naruto was messing 6 out of 9 of his TBBs.
5- Naruto using a FRS TBB, and a regular FRS, rather than more powerful jutsu just to balance Sasuke's jutsu out. Even though without the Plot shield Wind > Lightning, but oh well... 

not to mention the other PnJ about wanting to fight Sasuke, but not in that state of his. lol

and even with all of that, he still won as Sasuke was knocked out the entire night, unlike Naruto.


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## Alkaid (Mar 16, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> It's funny how many of you call Naruto shit , yet  seem to love all of these trash series which are worse by comparison.
> 
> Turrin has destroyed my faith in NF's consensus.
> 
> ...



Can't be stated enough. You have to have a seriously meager reading list to consider Naruto *the worst* piece of fiction you've read. A lot of manga and light novels nowadays are filled to the brim with fan service, harem shenanigans, and wish fulfillment MC's. When looked at as a whole, I can't say Naruto is *good*, but it's no where near bad. 

I firmly believe part one alone can be judged as 8/10 easily, and for people who read a lot of manga or light novels, this should keep it out as your worst pick. Would I recommend


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## Uraharа (Mar 16, 2015)

Naruto until Pain arc is the best and just very good imo.
Naruto from FKS to Obito's unmasking was decent
Naruto from Obito's unmasking until Indra and Ashura's backstory was bad/okay(more downs than ups)
Everything after that gave me eye cancer.


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## Bender (Mar 16, 2015)

Naruto was actually boss following Sasuke vs Itachi battle and Pain arc. It kind of slowed down at some points but was pretty entertaining.


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> How do you want Naruto to be a drop out, and become an acknowledged Hokage at the same time?
> Or actually, how would you do it if you were Kishi, Turrin?


Dude I would have to change so many things especially relating to those final-arcs. But I think one obvious way it could have been done is by having the villagers seeing Naruto going KN and essentially leaving whether they lived or died up to luck, as a sign that they were always right about him being a monster and leaving Naruto to have to earn back everyone's trust. Heck I would have had it so KN-Naruto actually did kill someone worth note, or someone had to give their lives to stop KN-Naruto's rampage like Yamato. From there Naruto would have to work-hard to become stronger so he didn't ever again feel powerless enough to rely on the Fox. 

Than when fighting the FV, Naruto would be put in a similar situation where he looses someone close to him, but this time demonstrate the strength of character to not give into the fox and use his own power to overcome the hopeless situation protecting the village.



> Naruto won the fight though as Sasuke admitted his defeat. Also, you must take in considerations the MASSIVE disadvantages that Kishi putted Naruto at in that fight as well. Like


My issue with the fight doesn't have to do with advantages and disadvantages. It has to do with the weight and emotional depth of the fight being completely gone by the time it went down in the manga.

In Part I, Sasuke vs Naruto held a-lot of weight and emotional depth, because it was the culmination of all of Naruto's efforts. Naruto the worst in the academy finally through his hard work and determination was able to build himself up to the point where he could take on his rival who was the best at the academy, and someone who had all the natural talents and attributes Naruto himself lacked. When Naruto failed to defeat Sasuke, the reader felt the impact of that as Naruto had worked so hard to get to that point and it still wasn't enough to overcome Sasuke's Genius, heritage, and gifted power (CS).

However in Naruto vs Sasuke V2, none of that weight can be felt, because at that point it's not really about hard-work or the underdog besting someone who is greatly more gifted, as both are just handed freebie power ups left and right by then and both are incarnations of demi-gods and shit. Basically I don't feel Naruto's struggle or see any real philosophical victory in Naruto defeating Sasuke than. All Naruto proves is that they only way he could win is by getting  freebie power ups, estimated heritage, etc...himself to match Sasuke.


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## Bender (Mar 16, 2015)

@Turrin



How the hell does Naruto have freebie power-ups to match Sasuke? It was established in Juubito arc that Naruto was above Sasuke in Kyuubi Chakra mode v.2. His power only rocketed farther when he combined KCMv.2 with Sage mode. 

Hell, even without KCM v.2 he could likely match Sasuke with Sage mode before his EM Sharingan.


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## Lucy75 (Mar 16, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> says an extreme naruto fan.. kishi hardly developed anybody outside of naruto and sasuke in part two. he also failed at pretty much all of his themes. its a joke to even claim this enduring theme i mean who doesn't endure shit? wow naruto toughed it out even though he really didn't fix shit like the manga claimed he would such a beautiful, sweet message.
> 
> i would rather watch dragon ball ten times over before even considering watching naruto once and i'm far from a dragon ball fan.
> 
> as for the bottom paragraph you have no right to type such a thing since most of you talk shit and hate on every other popular manga series that isn't naruto. yet you act like people in turn should treat naruto like some holy script written by god himself. that is very hypocritical of you naruto fans.


So then why the fuck are you even here in this section of the site then? It's amazing how you haters loathe the manga so much in yet you can't keep yourselves away from the naruto section of this site. Are you this butthurt/bitter over the manga's success/popularity over whatever your fav crap is or something?


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## Zef (Mar 16, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> So then why the fuck are you even here in this section of the site then? It's amazing how you haters loathe the manga so much in yet you can't keep yourselves away from the naruto section of this site. Are you this butthurt/bitter over the manga's success/popularity over whatever your fav crap is or something?



Exactly the question I brought up last page.

I'm able to see this manga's flaws yet still find enjoyment in it, even if it's small. Some of these people literally can't stand the story yet here they are in this section 5 months later.And chances are they'll continue being in this section for much longer. Either people are curious or they still have sentimental attachments, and simply aren't being honest with themselves. 

Either way it's funny seeing people act like masochist, and purposely cause themselves unhappiness when all they have to do is leave this fandom behind.The manga is over so there's not really an excuse to stay around.


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## Uraharа (Mar 16, 2015)

Most of those people watched part 1 completely  in anime format(marathoning) and started reading weekly since Pain arc. Those who have actually read the part one battle actually say it wasn't that good at all. They got annoyed that every intense part was interrupted by flashbacks, and I can see where they are coming from. I'm pretty sure people would have complained as well if this battle was the same.

Overall, I don't take those people serious. To each their own I guess. But it greatly annoys me when I read shitty comments like ''Even Naruto SD is currently better than the actual manga''. Worst thing is that some of them actually meant it.


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## ch1p (Mar 16, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> So then why the fuck are you even here in this section of the site then? It's amazing how you haters loathe the manga so much in yet you can't keep yourselves away from the naruto section of this site. Are you this butthurt/bitter over the manga's success/popularity over whatever your fav crap is or something?



How true. 

One thing is to criticise the series. One thing is to have problems with certain ways the series was handled. One thing is to write about it or debate it.

Now complain that there's nothing redeemable about it, that there's no enjoyment to be had, that they'd rather be watching something else 10x over, while spending inane amounts of time dedicated to being here complaining about it and doing nothing else is just insane.


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## CyberianGinseng (Mar 16, 2015)

Have you read Bleach?


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## ch1p (Mar 16, 2015)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Have you read Bleach?



Yes.

He also read Fairy Tail and a few hentai manga.


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## Milliardo (Mar 16, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> So then why the fuck are you even here in this section of the site then? It's amazing how you haters loathe the manga so much in yet you can't keep yourselves away from the naruto section of this site. Are you this butthurt/bitter over the manga's success/popularity over whatever your fav crap is or something?



why fuck does it matter to you why i'm in this section? are you extremely bothered by it? like most here i use to be a fan of naruto until kishimoto flossed his ass clean with the manga. then i came for the debates. occasionally i try to defend people voicing their opinion when its not about praising naruto. 

i could give a damn about the success of naruto and i certainly don't deny it. i just find it funny you lot rub that in people's faces but shit all over other successful and popular manga like then it doesn't matter.

 sasuke was my favorite character and while i wasn't pleased with his character development within the war i couldn't have been more pleased with his ending considering he tied the main character. so no i'm not really "butthurt" over my favorite character bro.

i'll tell what is really amazing though. its how sensitive you guys are towards this manga. i mean seriously it could be the smallest thing if its not praising naruto then your feelings are hurt. immediately we must defend against it or pretend it never happened or act like its a very very small issue. i mean my god can someone tell their thoughts about something they thought was off or wrong about the manga without people ready to gang bang their ass countering each and everything they posted? i guess those people are always in the wrong i mean fuck they aren't praising naruto. maybe we should have sub section for these bad people so they don't bother us with their misguided views and blind hatred. praise naruto or get the fuck out right?

well i'll tell you what don't go outside in to world because there will be people who are going to talk shit about the things you like. i'm not your problem because i don't care enough to even make a thread anymore but there will be people that will want to express their dislike for naruto or the mini series when it comes out and you will have to "endure" that. i was actually done with this thread until you responded to me so i figured i owed you an answer since you seem bothered by my post.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 16, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> why fuck does it matter to you why i'm in this section? are you extremely bothered by it? like most here i use to be a fan of naruto until kishimoto flossed his ass clean with the manga. then i came for the debates. occasionally i try to defend people voicing their opinion when its not about praising naruto.
> 
> i could give a damn about the success of naruto and i certainly don't deny it. i just find it funny you lot rub that in people's faces but shit all over other successful and popular manga like then it doesn't matter.
> 
> ...



So emotional. I wonder if it was worth the tl;dr smh.


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## Catalyst75 (Mar 16, 2015)

The Handsome Klad said:


> This, FT is the worst piece of fiction know to man. There's no way naruto could be worse than FT. It's impossible.



I puked freakin' rainbows after Mavis' words at the end of - 

*vomits rainbows*

*cough* Fairy Tail Zero 9, and I am still doing so whenever I *cough* think about that poison. 

The only reason I read that accursed thing is to see how it will eventually end.


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## babaGAReeb (Mar 17, 2015)

ch1p said:


> Yes.
> 
> He also read Fairy Tail and a few hentai manga.



this dude is just embarrassing

he somehow thinks the new naruto kid series is going to be the same as hentai


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 17, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> why fuck does it matter to you why i'm in this section? are you extremely bothered by it? like most here i use to be a fan of naruto until kishimoto flossed his ass clean with the manga. then i came for the debates. occasionally i try to defend people voicing their opinion when its not about praising naruto.
> 
> i could give a damn about the success of naruto and i certainly don't deny it. i just find it funny you lot rub that in people's faces but shit all over other successful and popular manga like then it doesn't matter.
> 
> ...



I read this on the ign forums

""One time there were these two ghetto black dudes in the cafeteria who's fierce argument gradually turned into a violent fist fight where the loser had to be taken to the nurse's office and eventually get stitches. When it was over I asked the victor why it all started and he begrudgingly told me "that punk ass bitch tryna' front and say Naruto ain't the realist shit he ever seen". Dude was so serious. Anime ain't no fucking joke.""


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## ch1p (Mar 17, 2015)




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## Milliardo (Mar 17, 2015)

ch1p said:


> How true.
> 
> One thing is to criticise the series. One thing is to have problems with certain ways the series was handled. One thing is to write about it or debate it.
> 
> Now complain that there's nothing redeemable about it, that there's no enjoyment to be had, that they'd rather be watching something else 10x over, while spending inane amounts of time dedicated to being here complaining about it and doing nothing else is just insane.


uh what ch1p? i've made a few post in like the past few weeks before that i wasn't even on here for like 3 months. at least know who you are talking about. 



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> So emotional. I wonder if it was worth the tl;dr smh.


you kidding? i had fun typing that and it took very little effort. i wonder if all these long essays in this ongoing thread were worth the emotional outbreak from the fandom. i would hope some like me are at least having fun with it. 



thebrightestshadow said:


> I read this on the ign forums
> 
> ""One time there were these two ghetto black dudes in the cafeteria who's fierce argument gradually turned into a violent fist fight where the loser had to be taken to the nurse's office and eventually get stitches. When it was over I asked the victor why it all started and he begrudgingly told me "that punk ass bitch tryna' front and say Naruto ain't the realist shit he ever seen". Dude was so serious. Anime ain't no fucking joke.""



dude, you are new here so i'm going to give you some advice. always make positive threads its the easy way out. if you want a long ongoing thread like this create such topics as itachi and the uchiha massacre. always hype the popular characters like minato or the uchiha. never go against the popular opinion around here. if you do this then it will be smooth sailing for the most part. you'll more likely get less negs this way. anyways good luck to ya bro. 



ok i'm done here this is turrin's thread afterall. if anyone else has anything to talk to me about then hit up my profile.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 17, 2015)

Actually I think the popular opinion or rather the consensus is of a more critical nature toward the story. I recall the final stretches especially, it was getting shat upon almost unanimously. It's that the apologists in response to growing criticism became louder and more defensive than they ever were.


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## CyberianGinseng (Mar 17, 2015)

ch1p said:


> Yes.
> 
> He also read Fairy Tail and a few hentai manga.


Never read Fairy Tail, but, if that's true, it's pretty hard to take seriously someone claiming Naruto is worse than Bleach.

It's not even close to that bad at its worst.


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## Trojan (Mar 17, 2015)

> =Turrin;53121762]Dude I would have to change so many things especially relating to those final-arcs. But I think one obvious way it could have been done is by having the villagers seeing Naruto going KN and essentially leaving whether they lived or died up to luck, as a sign that they were always right about him being a monster and leaving Naruto to have to earn back everyone's trust. Heck I would have had it so KN-Naruto actually did kill someone worth note, or someone had to give their lives to stop KN-Naruto's rampage like Yamato. From there Naruto would have to work-hard to become stronger so he didn't ever again feel powerless enough to rely on the Fox.
> 
> Than when fighting the FV, Naruto would be put in a similar situation where he looses someone close to him, but this time demonstrate the strength of character to not give into the fox and use his own power to overcome the hopeless situation protecting the village.


Honeslty, to me, I don't think Naruto deserve to go through that all over again after of what he did during that battle. :/ 


> All Naruto proves is that they only way he could win is by getting  freebie power ups, estimated heritage, etc...himself to match Sasuke.



I don't agree with this. Naruto was already stronger than Sasuke since SM, it's then SASUKE who needed to take ITACHI'S eyes to be stronger, and the Naruto got Kurama's power and became far stronger than Sasuke.

Yes, he got a free power from Hagoromo, but so did Sasuke. HOWEVER, Sasuke got ANOTHER free power up from the Bijuu so he can stand a chance against Naruto who's holding back and already exhausted. 

If anything, that battle showed how far ahead was Naruto compared to Sasuke that even with all 9 Bijuus the best he can do is making the gap in power smaller, and still lost to Naruto. That was pathetic if you ask me.


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## Uraharа (Mar 17, 2015)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Never read Fairy Tail, but, if that's true, it's pretty hard to take seriously someone claiming Naruto is worse than Bleach.
> 
> It's not even close to that bad at its worst.



Volume 68 was so bad that I teared it a part. I'm not even kidding. I can show you pictures if you want. I've never had that with any other manga. Not even with the worst Donald Duck comics.

But still,  that was only the last part of the war arc. I don't really have a problem with anything else before the war arc. Everything until Pain was awesome and from FKS til War arc it was decent but still very enjoyable. I don't see why this would be the worst fictional thing ever.

And lol at the people who claim that DBZ is better. I own like 90% of the volumes and only like two of them have actual good dialogues(Goku's speech before parting with Gohan was the best)


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## Arles Celes (Mar 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I don't agree with this. Naruto was already stronger than Sasuke since SM, it's then SASUKE who needed to take ITACHI'S eyes to be stronger, and the Naruto got Kurama's power and became far stronger than Sasuke.
> 
> Yes, he got a free power from Hagoromo, but so did Sasuke. HOWEVER, Sasuke got ANOTHER free power up from the Bijuu so he can stand a chance against Naruto who's holding back and already exhausted.
> 
> If anything, that battle showed how far ahead was Naruto compared to Sasuke that even with all 9 Bijuus the best he can do is making the gap in power smaller, and still lost to Naruto. That was pathetic if you ask me.



I think Turrin is saying that it does not matter anyway as it all still came to a contest of free power ups and not hardwork. At most Naruto would become stronger by getting more powerful free power ups than Sasuke rather than besting Sasuke's genius/free power ups through hard work and determination.

As for how they stood from a mere battle dome perspective since Naruto got SM it would be like IMO Naruto was stronger until Sasuke got Susanoo fully mastered but then he started to go blind and needed EMS. At the same time Naruto stated that he needed Kurama to fight Sasuke. Once Naruto got KCM and Sasuke opened his new eyes they were roughly equal(and Sakura did seemingly catch up to that particular level too). Then Naruto got BM and was stronger. Afterwards Sasuke got PS and they were equal again, at least via portrayal as his EMS PS got no individual feats. Later both got free power ups from RS though Naruto also got some of the bijuu power too. I think that due to Naruto having full mastery from the go of his power he was superior to Rinnegan Sasuke who was a complete noob with his haxxx and did not even fully master it by the very end. Still, once Sasuke got free bijuu power up Naruto needed another power up in the form of Kurama gathering all of earth nature energy to match him. Each got basically a free power up in VoTE. Without RSM and Rinnegan the two in base seemed to be actually equal in power.

Guys like Minato, Sakura, Guy and Hiruzen despite achieving great power did not have bloodlines, secret legacies nor anything and got to where they were through a mix of hardwork and talent. I think it was rather realistic as those who reach the peak often need both talent and effort.

That said unlike Turrin I think Naruto deserves credit for showing strength of spirit, staying true to his ideals and never giving up. His motto of "I never go back on my word" was one of the few things that Kishi kept unchanging. Guess the crazy hardworker theme was to difficult to pull off as Guy and Lee were as extreme as anyone in this philosophy. Guy kinda proved its worth though by kicking Madara's ass LOL.


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## Pocalypse (Mar 17, 2015)

I hope Turrin doesn't have some health issues after this. Looking at his thread history and whatnot where he's got gazillion threads about this series alone, with multitude of words in there which even puts some TLR's in shame... must be a huge blow to turn this into *THE* worst fiction he's ever witnessed. That switch couldn't have been easy.


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## Trojan (Mar 17, 2015)

> I think Turrin is saying that it does not matter anyway as it all still came to a contest of free power ups and not hardwork. At most Naruto would become stronger by getting more powerful free power ups than Sasuke rather than besting Sasuke's genius/free power ups through hard work and determination.



Yes, and I agree with that. Though, from my POV, Naruto's hard work was already superior to Sasuke's KKG, and "talent" which SM proves it. When Sasuke needed power ups from outside sources, it's when Naruto also did the same, even though less than Sasuke. Naruto's power with Kurama was always expected, but yeah, Hagoromo was shit that was not needed and that concept was terrible indeed. 



> As for how they stood from a mere battle dome perspective since Naruto got SM it would be like IMO Naruto was stronger until Sasuke got Susanoo fully mastered but then he started to go blind and needed EMS. At the same time Naruto stated that he needed Kurama to fight Sasuke.


Not really. Even with his full Susanoo he was inferior to SM Naruto. Look at what SM Naruto did to Kurama. 


> Once Naruto got KCM and Sasuke opened his new eyes they were roughly equal(and Sakura did seemingly catch up to that particular level too).


No, they were not. EMS Sasuke barely got anything he was shown pitiful compare to even MS itachi. 


> Then Naruto got BM and was stronger. Afterwards Sasuke got PS and they were equal again, at least via portrayal as his EMS PS got no individual feats.



No they were not. It was even shown how mad Sasuke was because in the gap in power between them. 
16
16


> Later both got free power ups from RS though Naruto also got some of the bijuu power too. I think that due to Naruto having full mastery from the go of his power he was superior to Rinnegan Sasuke who was a complete noob with his haxxx and did not even fully master it by the very end. Still, once Sasuke got free bijuu power up Naruto needed another power up in the form of Kurama gathering all of earth nature energy to match him. Each got basically a free power up in VoTE. Without RSM and Rinnegan the two in base seemed to be actually equal in power.



No, SM is a jutsu that Naruto always had. Sasuke did not always have the Bijuus. 

And when he was defeated, he admitted that Naruto has always been a head of him from the start and that day was no different.


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## Arles Celes (Mar 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Yes, and I agree with that. Though, from my POV, Naruto's hard work was already superior to Sasuke's KKG, and "talent" which SM proves it. When Sasuke needed power ups from outside sources, it's when Naruto also did the same, even though less than Sasuke. Naruto's power with Kurama was always expected, but yeah, Hagoromo was shit that was not needed and that concept was terrible indeed.
> 
> 
> Not really. Even with his full Susanoo he was inferior to SM Naruto. Look at what SM Naruto did to Kurama.
> ...



Well, yeah though it is unknown if Naruto would have the requirement to obtain SM without his Uzumaki heritage as it gave him crazy amounts of chakra that are essential. Jiraiya and Minato would be better examples IMO as they did not have such an advantage which might imply that they had to increase their chakra reserves through training.

What Naruto did to Kurama was rather weird. The strongest bijuu being hurt by an attack that did not damage the 3rd Raikage did not make any sense. That said Sasuke's Amaterasu which is Naruto's FRS equivalent can also severely damage bijuus. It forced Hachibi to detach his body part in order to survive. Even Juubi was screaming in pain after being hit. Its just that it does not look flashy as justus with big explosions and Kishi did put Sasuke against opponents that can shed their body(like Hachibi) or move to fast(Ei) for it to look as effective as it truly is. Naruto on the other hand was either put against absorbers(rinnegan users or tanks(like 3rd Raikage). Kishi really did not want them killing people.

Well, Itachi did not look so inferior to Bee and KCM Naruto either. Kishi loved him to much to make him look really uncool which is why he was removed from the battle and did not face stronger guys like Obito or Madara.

As for Sasuke's "Jealousy" moment he happened to have those when Naruto was "merely" his equal too.
16
When their rasengan and chidori clashed Sasuke was still angry despite not coming off as weaker. Sasuke disliked not just Naruto being his better but his equal too. 
16
That said it is also unknown when Sasuke finally unlocked his PS. His powers since he got MS were unlocked through battle rather than from the go...

Regarding SM it is true that Naruto can use it but without Kurama's KB he cannot gather power on that scale on his own. 

As for Sasuke saying that Naruto was always better I do not think he meant pure power -as he defeated Naruto a few times in the past- but rather how he was able to overcome hatred and become stronger through bonds while Sasuke could only do so by seeking revenge. I think it was also to show how they both respected each other in the end as Sasuke's internal monologue was very much like Naruto's in part 1.
16
16
16
16


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## Haruka Katana (Mar 17, 2015)

Catalyst75 said:


> I puked freakin' rainbows after Mavis' words at the end of -
> 
> *vomits rainbows*
> 
> ...


I skip the entire panel whenever there's Mavis talking bullshit. Didn't even bother reading her spin-off 

Didn't really read FT zero minus a few chapters.


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## gabzilla (Mar 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> 12. Bleach
> 17. Nisekoi
> 18. Fairy Tale, Fairy Tale Zero



 **


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## Epyon (Mar 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Yes, and I agree with that. Though, from my POV, Naruto's hard work was already superior to Sasuke's KKG, and "talent" which SM proves it. When Sasuke needed power ups from outside sources, it's when Naruto also did the same, even though less than Sasuke. Naruto's power with Kurama was always expected, but yeah, Hagoromo was shit that was not needed and that concept was terrible indeed.



That's not really fair if you ask me. Sasuke had gone completely 100% blind after a handful of uses of MS and thus needed take Itachi's eyes. By then Naruto had already won the Pain fight by going 8-tails and then having the part of his father sealed inside him at birth save him from the brink of losing himself completely to the Juubi. I would not say one was more hard work then the other. Sasuke just has the bad luck of being the least naturally gifted Uchiha.


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## Turrin (Mar 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Honeslty, to me, I don't think Naruto deserve to go through that all over again after of what he did during that battle. :/


He left the villagers fates up to sheer luck by loosing control of himself and giving into the Kyuubi. He would have transformed into the full Kyuubi, if not for Minato saving his ass which would have probably resulted in the complete genocide of every living being in the immediate area. Basically Naruto due to personally weakness realized the worst fears the villagers ever had for him; he became a monster. Naruto is responsible for that and should have had to deal with fall out for that.



> I don't agree with this. Naruto was already stronger than Sasuke since SM, it's then SASUKE who needed to take ITACHI'S eyes to be stronger, and the Naruto got Kurama's power and became far stronger than Sasuke.
> 
> Yes, he got a free power from Hagoromo, but so did Sasuke. HOWEVER, Sasuke got ANOTHER free power up from the Bijuu so he can stand a chance against Naruto who's holding back and already exhausted.
> 
> If anything, that battle showed how far ahead was Naruto compared to Sasuke that even with all 9 Bijuus the best he can do is making the gap in power smaller, and still lost to Naruto. That was pathetic if you ask me


Your missing the point. Sasuke has always gotten freebie power ups the entire series. The point is Naruto should have shown the ability to overcome that with hard-work and determination, not Naruto also getting free power ups.

Basically I feel your speaking towards how fair their final battle was, which is not the point. Of course Naruto getting freebie power ups is fair, because Sasuke had been getting them this entire time. But fairness isn't the issue I have with the fight.



> . Though, from my POV, Naruto's hard work was already superior to Sasuke's KKG, and "talent" which SM proves it. When Sasuke needed power ups from outside sources, it's when Naruto also did the same, even though less than Sasuke. Naruto's power with Kurama was always expected, but yeah, Hagoromo was shit that was not needed and that concept was terrible indeed.


SM itself was the plot bending over backwards to give Naruto a gimme power up rather than a product of Naruto's hard-work/determination. Like i've said before in this thread, SM is an ability that Jiraiya and Orochimaru despite being vastly more skilled in Ninjutsu than Naruto at that time, could not master with multiple decades. Naruto mastering it in a week is just plot, to get Naruto to the point where he could face Pain.

Likewise Kishi retecon'd SM to keep giving it more abilities, which to me are also free power ups for Naruto.
---------

With that said SM is not quite as offensive to the themes of hard-work/determination as successive power ups, but it was the beginning of the end, and the manga did not end at SM-Naruto vs MS-Sasuke, so ultimately it's not relevant to my point.



> Not really.


Not to go off topic, but I agree with Arles Celes estimate. Naruto was equal to Sasuke in at the end of the Kages arc he even said so himself. From there KCM/BM were equivalent to EMS, Naruto just got his power first so that left Sasuke play catch up and before he ever really did Naruto got BSM which pushed him ahead of Sasuke who needed to rely on Juugo.

We never got to see MS-Sasuke's full Susano'o, which is what I imagine would match Naruto in SM, than they'd beat the hell out of each other until they ran out of steam for SM and Susano'o respectively and it would become a base fight. 

The thing with Itachi looking better in the Kabuto fight comes down to the plot bending overbackwards to give Itachi just the right tool for that specific situation to deal with Kabuto. Kishi needed Itachi to be proven right in that battle to make Sasuke question his current path, and therefore he manufactured an ability that served no purpose in the manga other than allowing Itachi to be extremely effective in that scenario. I don't think overall Itachi is suppose to be seen as more powerful than EMS-Sasuke, even pre-perfect Susano'o.

---------

Edit; With that aside, let me ask you a question Hussain. Which would do you believe would hold more weight, hype, etc... the Naruto vs Sasuke battle we got in the manga cannon, or if Naruto never got quickie power ups or used Kyuubi's/Hagoromo's powers, and instead trained his ass off and more decisively beat Sasuke with his own ability. This might not be as big of an issue in terms of how bad the manga was for you as it is for me, but do you honestly think what we got would be better than what I just outlined.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 17, 2015)

all those bitching, read the viz manga tankobons at your local book story, they don't make the characters sound like idiots like the shitty fan translations.


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## Turrin (Mar 17, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> As for Sasuke saying that Naruto was always better I do not think he meant pure power -as he defeated Naruto a few times in the past- but rather how he was able to overcome hatred and become stronger through bonds while Sasuke could only do so by seeking revenge. I think it was also to show how they both respected each other in the end as Sasuke's internal monologue was very much like Naruto's in part 1.
> 16
> 16
> 16
> 16


Idk, to me it just seemed like a cop out on Kishi's part to avoid showing Naruto outright defeating Sasuke. As if the battle continued, it would have been a draw and both would have lost. Sasuke would have failed in his plot, but Naruto would have failed to break the cycle or bring Sasuke back to Konoha. So was Naruto really better than Sasuke, not really, they were equals in that moment; and even on a philosphical level Naruto's path or nindo was only proved better, because Sasuke himself made the choice to relent. Again, much like in the case of other villains, Naruto did not present any kind of valid alternative to the issues Sasuke had with the current system or means to bring about peace or demonstrate any kind of gap in strength he achieved through walking a different path than Sasuke, and simply repeated the same things he had always said to Sasuke ever since the Valley of the End. It's just this time Sasuke relented, basically imo because it was the end of the manga and Kishi had to have him relent.


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## Arles Celes (Mar 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Idk, to me it just seemed like a cop out on Kishi's part to avoid showing Naruto outright defeating Sasuke. As if the battle continued, it would have been a draw and both would have lost. Sasuke would have failed in his plot, but Naruto would have failed to break the cycle or bring Sasuke back to Konoha. So was Naruto really better than Sasuke, not really, they were equals in that moment; and even on a philosphical level Naruto's path or nindo was only proved better, because Sasuke himself made the choice to relent. Again, much like in the case of other villains, Naruto did not present any kind of valid alternative to the issues Sasuke had with the current system or means to bring about peace or demonstrate any kind of gap in strength he achieved through walking a different path than Sasuke, and simply repeated the same things he had always said to Sasuke ever since the Valley of the End. It's just this time Sasuke relented, basically imo because it was the end of the manga and Kishi had to have him relent.



I think Naruto's answer to peace is along the lines of " Believe in yourself, do not give up on your ideals and when things get bad do not hesitate to ask others to help you while paying them back by helping them if they get into trouble". Basically enduring, not going back on your word and making excuses and creating bonds with people which can help fill emptiness due to despair or loneliness.

As for the winners in their fight there weren't any, though Naruto achieved his goal of saving Sasuke while Sasuke was "given" the chance to start a new better life. Naruto himself said that there are no winners or losers in this fight.

And Sasuke's redemption was rushed, yeah. It wouldn't be so bad if Kishi did show Sasuke caring for Naruto and Sakura in part 2 instead of not giving a damn and being as mean as possible so that readers would be curious as to how he could change. Him thinking of Team 7 as his family was nice but given how he had shown no signs of such for over like 400 chapters it looked like wasted potential for character development for the sake of keeping the drama around for as long as possible.

I can see your point with how it was cool when it looked like how it all looked nicer when Naruto had to really work to get closer to his goals step by step. A satisfying conclusion is when it is bought with tears, sweat and failures but by the end both Naruto and Sasuke were demi gods. It was hard to feel as if Naruto could actually lose to Madara and Obito IMO despite how powerful they were. The feeling of despair was much higher when Naruto and Sasuke faced Zabuza or Oro. This tension was lost once big power ups like SM and MS came out and it only got more extreme.


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## Rindaman (Mar 17, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> see people like this prove my point.
> 
> it just goes to show you heavy biased people are involved in this naruto praising. one thread like turrin's and all of sudden you are enemy number one and basically just a blind hater with no real points.



The funny part is , you're doing the exact same thing you're accusing me of doing, I'm enemy number one because I don't hate the series with firey passion? 

Everyone knows this series has flaws and low points, you guys aren't special because you choose to highlight them at every juncture and people like you and Seto tend to be the usual suspects when it comes to stuff like this , but you just don't criticize , you tend to make bold statements like Turrin has in this very thread. "Worst manga ever" "unreadable" "1,000 better series out there" shit like that , yet here you are just dying to tell everyone how much you loathe something that finished 5 months ago. 



Why don't you just answer my question? What series do you consider inherently better than Naruto? Is your ava or signature one of them?


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 17, 2015)

> Believe in yourself, do not give up on your ideals and when things get bad do not hesitate to ask others to help you while paying them back by helping them if they get into trouble".



That is a "politician" answer, not really an actual answer though. Which is why I think was one big reason it was such a flop in the story. Such a matter was simply too big and too complex for Kishi to balance in the story.


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## Rindaman (Mar 17, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> That is a "politician" answer, not really an actual answer though. Which is why I think was one big reason it was such a flop in the story. Such a matter was simply too big and too complex for Kishi to balance in the story.



Don't kid yourself , the Politician answer is more realistic than whatever the hell people were expecting. What's your brilliant idea on how Kishi should've handled Naruto attaining peace?


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## Arles Celes (Mar 17, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> That is a "politician" answer, not really an actual answer though. Which is why I think was one big reason it was such a flop in the story. Such a matter was simply too big and too complex for Kishi to balance in the story.



Well, yeah if Kishi figured out a realistic way for world peace -which would need to be revolutionary with no one coming up with such idea before- then he would be up for a Peace Nobel Winner...or better.

Maybe Kishi should have ended it on a "pessimistic" note with Naruto failing to save Sasuke and in the epilogue we see another war between the nations starting and Naruto acknowledging that there is no answer to peace and that the best humans can do is to enjoy the time they got alive and to protect those who are close to you instead of trying to save the whole world?


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## Turrin (Mar 17, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> I think Naruto's answer to peace is along the lines of " Believe in yourself, do not give up on your ideals and when things get bad do not hesitate to ask others to help you while paying them back by helping them if they get into trouble". Basically enduring, not going back on your word and making excuses and creating bonds with people which can help fill emptiness due to despair or loneliness.


I think that's what Kishi was going for, but it made no sense within the confines of the story. Peace between the five nations wasn't achieved due to these things, it was achieved because they we're forced together by a bigger threat than fighting each other and the manga skewing realism to allow everyone in each nation to fight side by side w/o ever having conflict over past grievances, aside from a single instance that the manga allowed Gaara to easily shut down with a single speech. Which to be perfectly honest fits more with the answer Nagato originally had, which was to use overwhelming might to end the strife between the 5 nations; albeit not through the same method Nagato wished to employ, but the sentiment is most similar.

And that only covers so far as the 5 great nations, leaving us to simply assume that somehow someway the other lesser nations were brought into the fold, which I can only assume was possible through the other lesser nations being like fuck i'm not going to mess with the Kage Alliance and Godruto, as i'd only get my ass handed to me. Which again would only go back to peace being obtained with the threat of overwhelming might rather than anything Naruto evenly remotely presented as an "answer" to peace.

Linking this back to Sasuke vs Naruto. Sasuke's answer to peace is much more realistic and more closely parallels what actually achieved peace in that time period, than what Naruto's "answer" is, so again it's not like Naruto presented a valid counter point that changed Sasuke's mind. Sasuke had already herd Naruto's "answer" before and rightfully so deemed his path more realistic.

---------

I agree with all of the rest of what you said though.



Rindaman said:


> Don't kid yourself , the Politician answer is more realistic than whatever the hell people were expecting. What's your brilliant idea on how Kishi should've handled Naruto attaining peace?


Pretty sure Kiba is saying that it shouldn't have been a plot line in the first place, which is something I whole heartedly agree with. Once an author introduces the idea of creating utopia based around world peace, it's very difficult for the author to not destroy any sense of realism and bend the plot heavily to accommodate for such a lofty end-game goal.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 17, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Well, yeah if Kishi figured out a realistic way for world peace -which would be need to be revolutionary with no one coming up with such idea before- then he would be up for a Peace Nobel Winner...or better.
> 
> Maybe Kishi should have ended it on a "pessimistic" note with Naruto failing to save Sasuke and in the epilogue we see another war between the nations starting and Naruto acknowledging that there is no answer to peace and that the best humans can do is to enjoy the time they got alive and to protect those who are close to you instead of trying to save the whole world?



It's not even about having the answer to world peace. It's such a strawman to bring it up, it's the fact that he didn't even begin to faithfully express how complex an issue it is. It was whittled down to idiotically simplistic levels. It was obviously too big a concept to handle, so trying to get into some philosophical ramblings on the matter should not have been a task he tried to undertake, because it was clearly enough, beyond his ability. 

I say it's a politician's answer because it has absolutely zero substance behind it. It's just a bunch of vague ideas and feel-good words strung together to make it seem like it's an answer when it is not. 

That would actually be an entertaining ending in spite of your sarcasm. At least to me.


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## Arles Celes (Mar 17, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> It's not even about having the answer to world peace. It's such a strawman to bring it up, it's the fact that he didn't even begin to faithfully express how complex an issue it is. It was whittled down to idiotically simplistic levels. It was obviously too big a concept to handle, so trying to get into some philosophical ramblings on the matter should not have been a task he tried to undertake, because it was clearly enough, beyond his ability.
> 
> I say it's a politician's answer because it has absolutely zero substance behind it. It's just a bunch of vague ideas and feel-good words strung together to make it seem like it's an answer when it is not.
> 
> That would actually be an entertaining ending in spite of your sarcasm. At least to me.



Perhaps Kishi should have limited this issue to Uchihas alone.

Naruto finding a way to cure Uchihas from the Cure of Hatred(which was the source of much conflict in the Narutoverse) and save his friend.

Ironically we never heard how the genetic curse of the Uchihas can be cured. Did it vanish the moment Sasuke/Indra acknowledged Naruto/Asura? Otherwise it all comes back to the starting point.

Ending all hatred was too extreme and way too unrealistic even in a fantasy setting.

Guess Kishi wanted to set up a good example to kids. And so kept it really...simple. Too simple.


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## Zef (Mar 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I don't agree with this. *Naruto was already stronger than Sasuke since SM, it's then SASUKE who needed to take ITACHI'S eyes to be stronger*,


>Ignoring Naruto's statement of needing Kurama to beat Sasuke





> and the Naruto got Kurama's power and became far stronger than Sasuke.



Naruto had kurama's power since he was born.



> Yes, he got a free power from Hagoromo, *but so did Sasuke. HOWEVER, Sasuke got ANOTHER free power up from the Bijuu so he can stand a chance against Naruto who's holding back and already exhausted*.



Naruto fans never cease to amaze me with this logic. Did Naruto not also receive a free power-up via the Bijuu?  
Naruto has 9 entities inside him willfully giving him power, and advising him.

Sasuke took the Bijuu chakra by force. If any power-up was "free" it wasn't Sasuke's, but Naruto's. Naruto only worked to gain control over Kurama's power; take note how he asks the other Bijuu's when using their specific abilities. It's amusing how readily fanboys accept the Bijuu's as apart of Naruto's power,and then look down on Sasuke at the same time.

Lol at the exhaustion excuse.


And Lol at the holding back excuse


Apparently firing nukes that can destroy continents constitutes as "holding back".




> If anything, that battle showed how far ahead was Naruto compared to Sasuke that even with all 9 Bijuus the best he can do is making the gap in power smaller,


You're purposely trolling now. Sasuke, and Naruto were stalemating up until Sasuke used the Bijuu chakra.


At this point the one who needed to close the gap was Naruto. Not sure what you're talking about.



> and still lost to Naruto. That was pathetic if you ask me.


Sasuke lost which is why Naruto is the one requesting a rematch right?



Selective reading all around.


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## Turrin (Mar 17, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Perhaps Kishi should have limited this issue to Uchihas alone.
> 
> Naruto finding a way to cure Uchihas from the Cure of Hatred(which was the source of much conflict in the Narutoverse) and save his friend.
> 
> ...


Possibly that would be better, but due to the Uchiha going off the handle due to biological reasons the only way the curse could end is with the clan ending with Sasuke. Which is probably how the manga should have ended with Sasuke sacrificing himself for his wrong doings and putting an end to the Clan's hatred that way, but Kishi would never go there, so that was a pipe dream.


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## Milliardo (Mar 17, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> The funny part is , you're doing the exact same thing you're accusing me of doing, I'm enemy number one because I don't hate the series with firey passion?


couldn't you have told me this in my profile? again i believe  people have the right to express their opinion whether its positive or negative. if you don't like these types of threads then why are you in them? you are not my enemy bro. i have fun debating with people here otherwise i wouldn't be here. people for some reason fail to understand that. the forums were always more interesting to me than the actual manga.  



> Everyone knows this series has flaws and low points, you guys aren't special because you choose to highlight them at every juncture and people like you and Seto tend to be the usual suspects when it comes to stuff like this , but you just don't criticize , you tend to make bold statements like Turrin has in this very thread. "Worst manga ever" "unreadable" "1,000 better series out there" shit like that , yet here you are just dying to tell everyone how much you loathe something that finished 5 months ago.


please dude i've made threads explaining some of the problems i've had with the manga and even still some would come in calling me a butt hurt hater lol not discussing the topic at all. i don't come in here that much and i don't make threads anymore. people come here explaining their dislike of the manga of their own free will. if you guys don't like that then stay away from those topics. i mean is it really that hard to do that? hell, a lot of them would more than likely die off.  




> Why don't you just answer my question? What series do you consider inherently better than Naruto? Is your ava or signature one of them?


for me personally? i consider a lot of stories better than naruto strictly manga though i would say hunterxhunter, fma, one piece and attack on titan. 

as for my avi you mean legendary heroes? fuck yea its better than naruto and if you don't believe me go ask inu he'll tell you.


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## Arles Celes (Mar 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Possibly that would be better, but due to the Uchiha going off the handle due to biological reasons the only way the curse could end is with the clan ending with Sasuke. Which is probably how the manga should have ended with Sasuke sacrificing himself for his wrong doings and putting an end to the Clan's hatred that way, but Kishi would never go there, so that was a pipe dream.



So maybe Kishi shouldn't have introduced the genetics of craziness in the first place. 

Also...if an Uchiha can awaken MS by facing grief over the loss of a loved one why did not EVERY single Uchiha got MS?

But an ending where Sasuke sacrifices himself to save Naruto or Sakura would be more touching and invoke greater emotion in readers than a typical happy ending.

Then again after so much drama one wants a change of tone there...

 Furthermore, so many redeemed villains did cheapen redemption in general which is why NF is so obsessed with pure evil villains. Because there are hardly any...


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## Turrin (Mar 17, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> So maybe Kishi shouldn't have introduced the genetics of craziness in the first place.


The problem is that Kishi needed that plot device to accomplish several things:

1) It explained why members of the Uchiha-Clan acted were so frequently the main antagonists throughout many different eras of the Naruto-world.
2) It finally provided the explanation for the evolutions of Sharingan
3) It explained the mistrust the Senju and even Tobirama had for the Uchiha-Clan, long after they reconciled.
4) It lessened Sasuke's responsibility for his actions

Now one could argue, Kishi could have simply done away with these points in the story, but in-order to do that we are talking about significant rewrites, that would change the entire story drastically. 



> Also...if an Uchiha can awaken MS by facing grief over the loss of a loved one why did not EVERY single Uchiha got MS?


In-fairness we don't really know how many Uchiha had MS throughout history; it could have been a great many of them for all we know. I think the failure with the plot as far as that's concerned is the contradictory way in which the Sharingan in general was portrayed. Sharingan and all of it's success powers should have logically been well known due to the fame of the Uchiha-Clan throughout history, but every time a new Sharingan Mode (or Power) appeared, the manga tried to play off it's abilities as something rare that few in the world had knowledge of, going out of it's way to make characters that obviously should have had knowledge of it's capabilities suddenly be blissfully unaware of it's capabilities.

For example Zabuza as a member of the 7MS not knowing hardly anything about the Three-Tome-Sharingan capabilities and even a legendary sannin such as Orochimaru being unaware of the Three-Tome's Genjutsu abilities. Same thing with Asuma and Kurunai knowing next to nothing about the Three-Tome's Genjutsu capabilities. And so on.  In Part 1 this made some sense as it was never clear how big or small the Clan was, and how many of the clan members became active shinobi, let alone achieved the higher stages of the Sharingan, but in Part II when the clan became this legendary fighting force, all that stuff no longer made any sense.

To me in hindsight the lack of knowledge of Sharingan, is really thinly veiled plot device to give Sharingan wielders the upper hand in battles that would otherwise be more difficult or impossible to win.



> But an ending where Sasuke sacrifices himself to save Naruto or Sakura would be more touching and invoke greater emotion in readers than a typical happy ending.
> 
> Then again after so much drama one wants a change of tone there...
> 
> Furthermore, so many redeemed villains did cheapen redemption in general which is why NF is so obsessed with pure evil villains. Because there are hardly any...


Which I honestly think just relates back to Kishi fucking up the hard-work and determination theme of the manga. Back in Part I the TNJ's and redemptions were palpable, because Naruto was demonstrating an actually viable path to these characters. He showed Neji he didn't have to give into destiny and could work hard to overcome that. He showed Gaara that he could work hard to become something more than Sunagakuru's weapon. However in Part II Naruto wasn't really presenting villains with viable alternatives or saving people that could be realistically saved, he was simply the destined child and therefore Kishi couldn't have him actually kill anyone, so everyone after that had to be saved in some way or another, bar Kaguya who Kishi had to make sub-human.


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## Arles Celes (Mar 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The problem is that Kishi needed that plot device to accomplish several things:
> 
> 1) It explained why members of the Uchiha-Clan acted were so frequently the main antagonists throughout many different eras of the Naruto-world.
> 2) It finally provided the explanation for the evolutions of Sharingan
> ...



How about Indra's spirit powering up and LITERALLY manipulating the strongest Uchiha of every generation? Such possession would explain why Uchihas always keep causing trouble, absolve Sasuke(and others) for most of their sins and make it easier to end this problem. Maybe Sasuke sacrificing himself to destroy Indra along with himself or something similar. Or maybe make Sasuke save Sakura at the cost of his life while dealing Indra's spirit a "mortal" wound. Then Sakura heals him somehow from a wound that even Tsunade couldn't heal and prove that she surpassed her teacher. Also make Sasuke's action as a nice foundation to show that he cared for Sakura and a better build up for SasuSaku instead of Red Herring "jerkassness" for ship war material.

And yeah, regarding the sharingan it was said that only a few can awaken a normal sharingan...much less MS. Maybe it could come down to potential than a specific Uchiha got and the quality of his/her chakra. The stronger the chakra the more power can be unlocked. A genius like Madara could kill skilled senju warriors without even awakening his sharingan. Most Uchihas were probably Elite Chuunin-Low Jounin level. Kage level is a level that very few shinobi Uchiha or not can hope to reach.

Sharingan kept evolving as the scope of the manga kept growing broader. Kinda similar with Kurama and bijuu powers. First it was just K0 then one tailed forms, then even more tails, V2, KCM, BM...

The thing with redemption as you noticed with Neji and Gaara was that indeed they were given actual alternative options. They were also kids and not main villains with countless atrocities  like Obito or Madara. Furthermore we got to see their development while Obito and Madara were killed off since Kishi couldn't apparently imagine a way for them to redeem themselves to the shinobi world and would have to be executed for their crimes. Sasuke who had far less crimes needed to co-save the world to be sorta forgiven. 

Also it was weird how villains that were so mean for so long could so completely change in such a short time. Vegeta in DBZ needed like 3 arcs to be truly reformed. Furthermore, Naruto did not offer someone like Nagato nothing more than Jiraiya did who was Nagato's and Konan's teacher and friend while Naruto was just a target. It was to make Naruto look more special but it came off as asspull indeed.


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## Turrin (Mar 17, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> How about Indra's spirit powering up and manipulating the strongest Uchiha of every generation? Such possession would explain why Uchihas always keep causing trouble, absolve Sasuke(and others) for most of their sins and make it easier to end this problem. Maybe Sasuke sacrificing himself to destroy Indra along with himself or something similar.
> .


But the resolution is the same. Sasuke puts and end to the curse, by ending the clan with his sacrifice. 



> And yeah, regarding the sharingan it was said that only a few can awaken a normal sharingan...much less MS. Maybe it could come down to potential than a specific Uchiha got and the quality of his/her chakra. The stronger the chakra the more power can be unlocked. A genius like Madara could kill skilled senju warriors without even awakening his sharingan. Most Uchihas were probably Elite Chuunin-Low Jounin level. Kage level is a level that very few shinobi Uchiha or not can hope to reach.


That's what it should have been, but in the latter half of Part II, the Uchiha-Clan is presented as a group of legendary fighters.



> Also it was weird how villains that were so mean for so long could so completely change in such a short time. Vegeta in DBZ needed like 3 arcs to be truly reformed. Furthermore, Naruto did not offer someone like Nagato nothing more than Jiraiya did who was Nagato's and Konan's teacher and friend while Naruto was just a target. It was to make Naruto look more special but it came off as asspull indeed.


What Naruto offered them is evoking his birth right as the destined child, which is how he was able to convince them to believe in him. Verus Jiriaya who could not offer them this, because he was not the destined child.

Which again goes back to how subverted the main themes of Naruto were in Part II, where Naruto succeeds for the exact same fate/destiny he fought to prove to Neji was only an illusion.

It's this type of shit that Naruto consistently does in it's final arcs, that makes me feel like the manga is the worst thing i've ever read, because it so blatantly revels in the fact that it is destroying everything that originally made the story work. 

Part I "Naruto is a hard-working underdog, who through his strength of character will gain the acknowledgement of those close to him"

Part II, "Fuck that shit, he's an Uzamaki whose descendent of the Sage, and fuck why not he's also the reincarnation of one of the strongest people to walk the verse, the destined child and so on".

The things confirmed true about Naruto are like as bad as the wosrt fanfic theory's I used to read when I first started the manga. Like people used to laugh at theories that suggested Naruto would be from some noble bloodline.


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> But the resolution is the same. Sasuke puts and end to the curse, by ending the clan with his sacrifice.
> 
> 
> That's what it should have been, but in the latter half of Part II, the Uchiha-Clan is presented as a group of legendary fighters.
> ...



Yeah, but I meant that IF Kishi wanted a happy ending after all then it would be easier to convince the readers that Uchihas won't cause any trouble now that Indra's spirit is gone rather than leaving it to crazy genetics and leaving said problem without any real resolution.

Naruto and Sasuke dying together and finally coming to understand each other in death would be moving too IMO.

On your final point I think that way to many things were brought up to super cheap level.

For example, how Kishi managed to resurrect folks via Rinne Tensei. Once we knew that there is a device that can undo the death of any character it is harder to care for them as the possibility of bringing them up is always in the air. The super fast conversions which looked mostly the same. The excess of free power ups later. It was hard to care then as we all waited for Naruto to gain more haxxx out of nowhere even if the villain/s were kicking his ass. As with RT it was less on making readers wonder on how the characters will deal with the death of their loved ones but more of anticipating a deus ex machina to fix it all. The tension was gone. The forced parallels and making Naruto a hard to relate messiah that could do no wrong and was more forgiving than Sailor Moon in contrast to the completely crazy and single minded Sasuke. It would make each look better and more human if they were not pushed to such extremes IMO. And too much effort into pairing herrings. Better to develop NH and SS more so that it is more believable for those that disliked them and more satisfying for those that loved them.


----------



## Bender (Mar 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> It's this type of shit that Naruto consistently does in it's final arcs, that makes me feel like the manga is the worst thing i've ever read, because it so blatantly revels in the fact that it is destroying everything that originally made the story work.
> 
> Part I "Naruto is a hard-working underdog, who through his strength of character will gain the acknowledgement of those close to him"



Yeah and that theme is still prevalent in part II. 

Naruto being child of prophecy blabber does not subvert the fact that Naruto had to work hard to ensure that it comes true. Prophecies aren't always right ya know. The fact that it isn't mentioned until part 2 when Naruto has accomplished a holy fucking lot that we see it.



> Part II, "Fuck that shit, he's an Uzamaki whose descendent of the Sage, and fuck why not he's also the *reincarnation of one of the strongest people to walk the verse*






> *reincarnation of one of the strongest people to walk the verse*



??????

[YOUTUBE]LTMtRNkyGxQ[/YOUTUBE]

OKay...what how?...And again what?

So Naruto is a gender-reversed reincarnation of Kaguya?


----------



## Turrin (Mar 17, 2015)

@Bender

So apparently you don't know the difference between "one of the strongest" and "thee strongest", cool


----------



## Bender (Mar 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> @Bender
> 
> So apparently you don't know the difference between "one of the strongest" and "thee strongest", cool



I do, I just don't think you know the difference.

Also you did a very terrible power-scaling. It's

1.Kaguya
2. Hagoromo
3. Hamura

Saying Naruto is a reincarnation of "one of the strongest  in the verse" insinuates you're saying that Hagoromo's children are considered apart of the top three strongest. Sorry sir, but unless you're in the top three you're a nobody. 

Or are you insinuating that Asura is one of the strongest in the Narutoverse?  If so please elaborate.


----------



## AceBizzle (Mar 17, 2015)

I'm confident in stating that Prince of Tennis is worse than Naruto

But I agree with the OP in most of his points


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 17, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> couldn't you have told me this in my profile? again i believe  people have the right to express their opinion whether its positive or negative. if you don't like these types of threads then why are you in them? you are not my enemy bro. i have fun debating with people here otherwise i wouldn't be here. people for some reason fail to understand that. the forums were always more interesting to me than the actual manga.
> 
> please dude i've made threads explaining some of the problems i've had with the manga and even still some would come in calling me a butt hurt hater lol not discussing the topic at all. i don't come in here that much and i don't make threads anymore. people come here explaining their dislike of the manga of their own free will. if you guys don't like that then stay away from those topics. i mean is it really that hard to do that? hell, a lot of them would more than likely die off.
> 
> ...



No, don't fall into this. He's just going to try and shit on whatever series because it's the only way he knows how to argue on behalf of Naruto aside from "bitching about bitching" and that goes for so many others like him. 

I mean this is one of the same guys who accused ATLA of ripping off Naruto and threw a tantrum when he couldn't prove it.


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## CyberianGinseng (Mar 17, 2015)

"*one* of the strongest in the verse" doesn't mean one of the top three.

Naruto is one of the strongest. We know this because he went toe to toe with the strongest all by his lonesome, while Sasuke was stuck in the neutral zone. He could not have do so without being "*one* of the strongest in the verse."

Asura has Naruto's abilities and therefore is also "*one* of the strongest in the verse."


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## Bender (Mar 17, 2015)

@CG

How the hell does that automatically equate to Asura being strongest in verse? Asura has like zero feats aside from reincarnating like his brother over and over again.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 17, 2015)

Bender said:


> @CG
> 
> How the hell does that automatically equate to Asura being strongest in verse? Asura has like zero feats aside from reincarnating like his brother over and over again.



*ONE OF* the strongest. This is not hard.


----------



## Bender (Mar 17, 2015)

@Seto Kaiba

And I'm *ASKING* for proof that he's one of the strongest in the verse. 

*PROOF!*

Where the hell is it?


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 17, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Seto Kaiba
> 
> And I'm *ASKING* for proof that he's one of the strongest in the verse.
> 
> ...



Ashura could create the same kind of chakra construct Naruto has, the latter being his reincarnation, and all the same could contend with a perfect Susano'o. That alone makes him one of the strongest.


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## Bender (Mar 17, 2015)

@Seto Kaiba

Yeah, no that doesn't cut it. Moreover, his power rivaled his brother Indra's. 

Should also throw out that when Madara gets both Rinnegan he's officially Rikkudo Sennin level. Even though Hagoromo gave Naruto and Sasuke a fraction of his power and they're Rikkudo powers when Mads gets both eyes he shows no sign of being slowed down.  

Even Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo still outmatched by him.

Do you know what the power scaling indicates with Naruto and Sasuke having Indra and Asura's power's individually? It's that they're both in fourth place.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 17, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I know it's hard for some of you to process, but that is a distinct matter from a story being good. A story that can go in a direction one did not predict, or go one's way can still be good. Many are. On that same note, you can predict how a certain storyline will go, doesn't mean you think it will be any good.



I'd like to invite you to see weekly threads after every chapter. You'll see certain hate/love of certain turn of events are heavily associated with certain fandoms. 



> Or maybe they just had a set of standards on writing Kishimoto did not meet? Sometimes the simplest explanation is the most accurate one here.



And Kishi admits that with his bizarre reasoning of the characters wouldn't let him. 
If you see posts from then and now, it is hard to _not_ conclude some fandom clashes people have had didn't influence anything. 



> Then your time here has been worthless, on that end. I've been here longer than that and I find that a lot of the critics understand the story every bit as an apologist, and that understanding led them to a more critical opinion of its writing.



Have you been a regular in the library, or even the battledome? Or even any Naruto section of the forum? 
Or were you one of those members who started being active onto the part of the forum which was centred around the series then drifted off to being a regular to other parts?

If it is the second part, then you are plausibly out of touch with how the opinion rapidly shifted when the manga didn't go the way it should have in someone's opinion. 



> That's such a simple-minded way to characterize things. It comes off more as you try to reason to yourself why critics are the way they are than actually trying to make any true sense of the criticism.



Or I'm comparing these sort of threads now with how they were in the past. Being on the forum longer means you should know how people's biases seriously influence their taking of things. I'm saying even after the manga's end, people still haven't let go. 

Also the critics being the way they are will give you an insight into their criticism. If posters were biased towards certain characters from the beginning, and are lamenting that their favourites didn't get treated they way they feel they should have, that itself tells you the credibility of the criticism. 

Especially when supplement that with activity in subs like here and the battledome.



> No...it's definitely the series.
> 
> Personally I have found those 'bitching about bitching' which are essentially apologists of the story, to be far worse than any critic. Mainly in that they have a hard time processing the fact that one could criticize this story.



By no means is the series perfected, I even said there were a few things which were rushed, not touched on etc. 

At the same time, lets not get carried away with this "bitching about bitching" notion 'cause it can actually blind you from actual "bitching" masquerading as criticism. Of course you can have criticism which is essentially "bitching". 

My main point is that if you've been here for a while you'll see that "bitching" and criticism around here tend to be synonymous with one-another. 



Hussain said:


> although this may or may not be true, but you have to consider that even if it's true, then it's not only 1 Fan-base that is bitching about their favourite character. If anything, that only shows that Kishi does not care much about most of the characters...



Yeah, I do agree. He didn't make the series as great as it could have been. 

My main point though is that fan biases, which influenced how people looked at the story before, still influence how they look at the story in the end.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 17, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Seto Kaiba
> 
> Yeah, no that doesn't cut it. Moreover, his power rivaled his brother Indra's.



It does make the cut, despite your clearly changing criteria.

Also, that would make Indra among the strongest too.



> Should also throw out that when Madara gets both Rinnegan he's officially Rikkudo Sennin level. Even though Hagoromo gave Naruto and Sasuke a fraction of his power and they're Rikkudo powers when Mads gets both eyes he shows no sign of being slowed down.
> 
> Even Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo still outmatched by him.
> 
> Do you know what the power scaling indicates with Naruto and Sasuke having Indra and Asura's power's individually? It's that they're both in fourth place.



OK? That's still one of the strongest. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'd like to invite you to see weekly threads after every chapter. You'll see certain hate/love of certain turn of events are heavily associated with certain fandoms.



I know the fandom loyalty thing got out of hand, but as far as the story went those lines became far less less distinct. 



> And Kishi admits that with his bizarre reasoning of the characters wouldn't let him.  If you see posts from then and now, it is hard to _not_ conclude some fandom clashes people have had didn't influence anything.



For some, it seems very much so more of a generalized matter now. Kishimoto simply dropped the ball entirely. 



> Have you been a regular in the library, or even the battledome? Or even any Naruto section of the forum?
> Or were you one of those members who started being active onto the part of the forum which was centred around the series then drifted off to being a regular to other parts?



I spend most of my time in the Cafe if that's what you're asking, but I had plenty of activity here as well.



> If it is the second part, then you are plausibly out of touch with how the opinion rapidly shifted when the manga didn't go the way it should have in someone's opinion.
> 
> Or I'm comparing these sort of threads now with how they were in the past. Being on the forum longer means you should know how people's biases seriously influence their taking of things. I'm saying even after the manga's end, people still haven't let go.



For specific events at the time, I did see that. Sasuke fans upset if Naruto seemed stronger, Naruto fans upset if Sasuke seemed stronger. The Jiraiya vs. Itachi debacles, and fair-weather fans that just threw their hat behind who they thought was the strongest at the time, and the most popular. 

Yet again, as the story reached its conclusion I'm saying the lines between fandom become more and more blurred as it pertained to criticism. The writing became more and more a matter of being genuinely bad than simply a certain fandom's character or team not getting what they believed was their due. 

People will always have something to say, you're gonna have to accept that.



> Also the critics being the way they are will give you an insight into their criticism. If posters were biased towards certain characters from the beginning, and are lamenting that their favourites didn't get treated they way they feel they should have, that itself tells you the credibility of the criticism.



In past years this was more frequent, but more leveled out by general criticism. There are some absurd reasoning here and there, but like I said the lines between fandom became less distinct as the story went on. When the writing started to slip, you saw normally opposing fandoms at times even concurring with another on the handling of the story.



> Especially when supplement that with activity in subs like here and the battledome.



I know the Battledome is heavily saturated in character bias. It is simply an extension of a lot of vicious debates that went on in the past centered around the power level of a character, as people invested heavily into the idea that a stronger character = a better character. People wanted their preferred characters to appear the strongest possible, and especially stronger than those of 'rival' fandoms such as Jiraiya vs. Itachi that I mentioned before.



> By no means is the series perfected, I even said there were a few things which were rushed, not touched on etc.
> 
> At the same time, lets not get carried away with this "bitching about bitching" notion 'cause it can actually blind you from actual "bitching" masquerading as criticism. Of course you can have criticism which is essentially "bitching".



As long as it is about the story, I don't see what it matters. If absurd points exist in the critique, such as here the idea that Fairy Tail is a better series in spite of its reputation, or letting one's pairing preferences influence it, then it will as it should be dissected. 

I don't see the point in a lot of Naruto fans that do this thing where they do not at all touch upon the critique but complain about the fact that it even exists.



> My main point is that if you've been here for a while you'll see that "bitching" and criticism around here tend to be synonymous with one-another.



Not really.



> Yeah, I do agree. He didn't make the series as great as it could have been.
> 
> My main point though is that fan biases, which influenced how people looked at the story before, still influence how they look at the story in the end.



For some it can and on some points. However I do not think it invalidates the sum of their critique as a whole.


----------



## Alita (Mar 17, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> So then why the fuck are you even here in this section of the site then? It's amazing how you haters loathe the manga so much in yet you can't keep yourselves away from the naruto section of this site. Are you this butthurt/bitter over the manga's success/popularity over whatever your fav crap is or something?


I can't rep you enough man.


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## ch1p (Mar 17, 2015)

I agree that the writing went downhill from the zombie arc forward. It had a few moment where it went up (Obito reveal, Madara, team 7, 698-699), but it was never "part 1" level again and there were a lot of bulshit (Kaguya in general, who was ridic, the beginning of the SN fight, which was ridic).

It's also true some will defend the strenghts / flaws like their unborn child because a few things went just like they wanted. It's also true some will attack its strenghts / flaws like their unborn child because a few things went against what they wanted. The fault isn't just on one side.

So while its true some are hung up on too many justifications, others are nitpicking as well.


----------



## thebrightestshadow (Mar 17, 2015)

ch1p said:


> I agree that the writing went downhill from the zombie arc forward. It had a few moment where it went up (Obito reveal, Madara, team 7, 698-699), but it was never "part 1" level again and there were a lot of bulshit (Kaguya in general, who was ridic, the beginning of the SN fight, which was ridic).
> 
> It's also true some will defend the strenghts / flaws like their unborn child because a few things went just like they wanted. It's also true some will attack its strenghts / flaws like their unborn child because a few things went against what they wanted. The fault isn't just on one side.
> 
> So while its true some are hung up on too many justifications, others are nitpicking as well.



Worst part of entire manga was Sasuke and Sai arc, best part was Part 1 and Akatsuki arc (Hidan to Pain), War arc was still good, just way more inconsistent in quality than before.  Reason being the new editors being worse and not keeping Kishimoto in check as well.  If it weren't for his original editor, then Hiruzen would be a monkey and MInato would be a dog.  His original editor sort of encouraged Kishimoto to write a less wacky, more seinen story, which made it stand out, and while he learned a lot from that editor having him out of the picture gave Kishimoto a little too much freedom.  In fact, his new editor was obsessed with WWE and invented Killer Bee, so he wasn't doing much to encourage a more serious and mature approach to the material.  Nevertheless, the end could have been way worse, I think it ended good.  Way better than the shitty conclusion of Dragon Ball, SS3 Goku vs Kid Buu was so awful, but Battle of the Gods and Rebirth of Frieza are just making it worse.


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Mar 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Possibly that would be better,* but due to the Uchiha going off the handle due to biological reasons the only way the curse could end is with the clan ending with Sasuke. Which is probably how the manga should have ended with Sasuke sacrificing himself for his wrong doings and putting an end to the Clan's hatred that way, *but Kishi would never go there, so that was a pipe dream.


Your logic makes no sense. The Uchiha didn't go off the handle for biological reasons. The only thing their special chakra did was evolve their eyes at certain moments of despair. This created a psychological temptation to strive for more power either to protect or destroy. Their flying off the handle was entirely psychological. The fact that Uchiha's like Itachi and Kagami existed means there was no biological switch causing people to flip out. People were simply making choices good or bad. Sasuke sacrificing himself means that in that instance he would've conquered any psychological problems he had so your point is moot. Sasuke sacrificing himself is exactly the same as Sasuke changing his mind as he did. Better to have him die at Naruto's hands and go to his grave with the consequences of his decision.


----------



## thebrightestshadow (Mar 17, 2015)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Your logic makes no sense. The Uchiha didn't go off the handle for biological reasons. The only thing their special chakra did was evolve their eyes at certain moments of despair. This created a psychological temptation to strive for more power either to protect or destroy. Their flying off the handle was entirely psychological. The fact that Uchiha's like Itachi and Kagami existed means there was no biological switch causing people to flip out. People were simply making choices good or bad. Sasuke sacrificing himself means that in that instance he would've conquered any psychological problems he had so your point is moot. Sasuke sacrificing himself is exactly the same as Sasuke changing his mind as he did. Better to have him die at Naruto's hands and go to his grave with the consequences of his decision.



Tobirama explains that when Uchiha experience psychological trauma a chemical reaction happens that not only awakens new eye powers but slowly drives them insane, leading them into a path of darkness.  That's why Tobirama was insistent and killing them.


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Mar 17, 2015)

thebrightestshadow said:


> Tobirama explains that* when Uchiha experience psychological trauma a chemical reaction happens that not only awakens new eye powers but slowly drives them insane*, leading them into a path of darkness.  That's why Tobirama was insistent and killing them.


No that's not what he said. Read it again.

1) They experience loss.
2) Their feelings are stronger than other clans who experience the same.
3) Those strong feelings produce a special chakra that upgrades their eyes.
4) "Their eyes reflect their feelings... and gives the user a considerable boost in power."
5) All Uchiha who experience these strong emotions invariably walk down a depraved path, due to being "impressionable." (or emo)
6) The further they walk this path the greater the upgrade and the difficulty of reasoning with them. (Uchiha strength = Uchiha hate; the more they hate the more they crave power and the harder it is to reach them)

Unless you read some other translation than I did, he never once says that it's the special chakra, upgraded eyeballs, or chemical reaction driving them insane. *The strong emotions, their emo nature, and the "depraved path" that they walk during times of despair drive them insane.*

Also, the fact that he claims they invariably go insane, while admitting Uchiha like  Kagami and Itachi exist, makes Tobirama an unreliable narrator IMO.


----------



## ch1p (Mar 17, 2015)

thebrightestshadow said:


> Worst part of entire manga was Sasuke and Sai arc, best part was Part 1 and Akatsuki arc (Hidan to Pain), War arc was still good, just way more inconsistent in quality than before.  Reason being the new editors being worse and not keeping Kishimoto in check as well.  If it weren't for his original editor, then Hiruzen would be a monkey and MInato would be a dog.  His original editor sort of encouraged Kishimoto to write a less wacky, more seinen story, which made it stand out, and while he learned a lot from that editor having him out of the picture gave Kishimoto a little too much freedom.  In fact, his new editor was obsessed with WWE and invented Killer Bee, so he wasn't doing much to encourage a more serious and mature approach to the material.  Nevertheless, the end could have been way worse, I think it ended good.  Way better than the shitty conclusion of Dragon Ball, SS3 Goku vs Kid Buu was so awful, but Battle of the Gods and Rebirth of Frieza are just making it worse.



That very same editor also had PLENTY of questionable decisions, like rushing the zombie arc or cut the pain arc directly to Naruto's fight.

Hidan arc was good in the beginning. Midway in, it went to shit because it was rushed.

Hidan is a one trick pony, and Shikamaru defeats him without one single thing going wrong. This guy is an Akatsuki member, not Temari. Kishi also said Hidan wasn't supposed to be a one trick pony, he had more attacks and secrets, but he never explored them. Furthermore, what was the point of the reinforcements? It was clear there was more to the fight that was planned, by those alone, but Kishi's editor cut it short.

On the other hand, Kakazu was a bitch to defeat (as he should), with Kakashi almost dying to destroy only two of his hearts. That's good. However, Choji and Ino should have destroyed one heart. They were in there for no good reason otherwise. Even if they're not Kishi's darling, Shikamaru, they should have destroyed one heart combined. Then Naruto shows up and one shots two of those hearts with an incomplete attack, which is just ridiculous.

Hidan should have given more trouble to Shikamaru, which would given him some awareness about his planning can be flawed and utilising the backup that arrived at the end. Kakuzu should have had one heart destroyed by Choji and Ino combined, and Naruto should have only detroyed another one, and with a bit more work than just showing up, failing a first shot, and then landing the second. He could have even destroyed two if that really was necessary, just not the way it was.

The resolution was bad and it was the result of rushing so we could get to Sasuke.

About Pain arc, again it started well. Jiraiya infiltrating Amegakure was very good (even though this is still the least popular volume, it was a great story). Pain himself, Amegakure, derivates. The attack on the Leaf, with several characters rising up to the challenge and fighting the sixth paths of Pain and Konan. All very excellent buildup.

Yet Kishi had to cut all fights because the editor wanted Naruto to show up already. The only path that was fought was by Kakashi, the rest was ridiculous. Some of them are dealt with off panel. Konan went from roaming the streets to magically appearing at Nagato's side at the endgame of the arc.

Still Naruto's fight against Deva was good. No comments on the endgame, that thing is still the worse TnJ Naruto ever delivered along with the Obito one.

So yeah, to me, it really went to shit with the zombie arc, not later. Like I said, there were ups, but it was no part 1.  Agreed that Sai himself was stupid too even if he had potential. I liked the introduction of Danzo though, who was also stupid even if he had potential.

I might need to say it went to shit after the Gaara arc after all. That was the last good arc.


----------



## thebrightestshadow (Mar 17, 2015)

ch1p said:


> That very same editor also had PLENTY of questionable decisions, like rushing the zombie arc or cut the pain arc directly to Naruto's fight.
> 
> Hidan arc was good in the beginning. Midway in, it went to shit because it was rushed.
> 
> ...


That bums me out that those things were rushed, but I wouldn't call it shit, it was still the most entertaining portion of the story for me.


----------



## Bender (Mar 17, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> It does make the cut, despite your clearly changing criteria.
> 
> Also, that would make Indra among the strongest too.







> OK? That's still one of the strongest.



How is it one of the strongest if their father plus uncle and grandmother trump them in strength?

There's three other tier which outmatch them. Those past top three aren't acknowledged as "the strongest".


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## Turrin (Mar 17, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Yeah, but I meant that IF Kishi wanted a happy ending after all then it would be easier to convince the readers that Uchihas won't cause any trouble now that Indra's spirit is gone rather than leaving it to crazy genetics and leaving said problem without any real resolution.
> 
> Naruto and Sasuke dying together and finally coming to understand each other in death would be moving too IMO.
> 
> ...


I agree on all fronts, not much left to say other than your right 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> My main point though is that fan biases, which influenced how people looked at the story before, still influence how they look at the story in the end.


It seems like your insinuating that I have some sort of fan bias. But what exactly would that fan bias be? Thee only major characters that I was a fan of throughout the entire story, were Shikkamaru and Jiraiya. In Jiraiya cases I think it's easily debatable that Jiraiya had thee best character arc in the entire series and is one of the very few characters that Kishi didn't fuck up in later arc. Shikkamaru is thee only rookie besides debatably Neji that had a passable character arc and a passable amount of screen time; he's also part of the most desirable endgame paring in the form of ShikkaTemari. Thee other characters I was fans of, were mostly side characters that I enjoyed their character designs and abilities, which did not change throughout the manga.

As for "fandom" debates I've been largely proven correct. Let's go through a list of the major fan debates I've been part of:

Jiraiya vs Itachi - Jiriaya being able to draw with Itachi is more viable then ever now with how SM performed against Itachi and the release of extra info in DBIV. 

Minato > Pain-Arc Naruto - Minato was clearly shown to be > SM-Naruto with his feats in the war arc and him also having Sennin Modo explains Fukasaku's statement perfectly.

Naruto will be >= Sasuke - Manga showed that was indeed the case in their final bout 

Nagato/Pain vs Itachi - Nagato/Pain are so clearly illustrated above itachi by EOS, it's ridiculous

And so on....

So I'd like to ask what fan shit is influencing me to have a negative opinion of the series. Based on your logic, I should be on my knees sucking Kishimoto's cock. But the thing is Munboy, I have the ability to separate whether the series prove me right or did right by my favorite characters, and how good the actually narrative was. I know that's a hard concept to come to grips with, considering some individuals on this forum, but it's the reality none the less.


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## ch1p (Mar 18, 2015)

thebrightestshadow said:


> That bums me out that those things were rushed, but I wouldn't call it shit, it was still the most entertaining portion of the story for me.



The entertainment part of it is of the Asuma fight (emotional impact) and Kakashi fight (very good engage). I'm confident you gave no fucks about Shikamaru getting Hidan so easily (nailing him is a completely different history, I thoroughly enjoyed it too, just the 'no difficulties' was the stink for me). Which is why it tanked the arc. It had a terrible ending.



Turrin said:


> Shikkamaru is thee only rookie besides debatably Neji that had a passable character arc and a passable amount of screen time; he's also part of the most desirable endgame paring in the form of ShikkaTemari.



You said in the OP that the whole destiny thing, that Neji introduced, got to be trolled by the end, and considering how he died, can you really say that Neji had a passable character arc?

ShikaTema was the most desirable endgame pairing?  It had its fans and it was largely accepted and innofensive, but the way you talk its as if the fandom push behind it is comparable to Naruto becoming Hokage.



> As for "fandom" debates I've been largely proven correct. Let's go through a list of the major fan debates I've been part of:
> 
> Jiraiya vs Itachi - Jiriaya being able to draw with Itachi is more viable then ever now with how SM performed against Itachi and the release of extra info in DBIV.
> 
> Nagato/Pain vs Itachi - Nagato/Pain are so clearly illustrated above itachi by EOS, it's ridiculous



And did you just... Wow.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 18, 2015)

Bender said:


> How is it one of the strongest if their father plus uncle and grandmother trump them in strength?
> 
> There's three other tier which outmatch them. Those past top three aren't acknowledged as "the strongest".



Because that's only three other people before them! That squarely puts them in the top four or five.

They are all apart of "among the strongest". How is it that it's so hard for you to get here?


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## CyberianGinseng (Mar 18, 2015)

Bender said:


> @CG
> 
> How the hell does that automatically equate to Asura being strongest in verse? Asura has like zero feats aside from reincarnating like his brother over and over again.


Never said he was strongest in the verse. In  fact, nobody has said that, but for some reason you keep conflating the two.

He's half Hagoromo. Has the same avatar as Naruto's strongest form. It's obvious he's "*one* of the strongest in the verse."


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## Turrin (Mar 18, 2015)

ch1p said:


> You said in the OP that the whole destiny thing, that Neji introduced, got to be trolled by the end, and considering how he died, can you really say that Neji had a passable character arc?


Yes, because it was Neji's choice in the end. He was not cosmically fated to save Hinata. If he turned out to be the reincarnation of Hyuuga Tokakawa who is destined to gives his life for Hyuuga Tatsuki, who Hinata is the reincarnation of, than that would be spitting in the face of Neji's previous development. Naruto's character directly contradicts his previous sentiments, Neji's doesn't. 

With that said, are there better ways Neji's character could have been developed, sure, but that's why I used the word "passable" not "great".



> ShikaTema was the most desirable endgame pairing?  It had its fans and it was largely accepted and innofensive, but the way you talk its as if the fandom push behind it is comparable to Naruto becoming Hokage.


By most desirable pairing I mean that Temari is probably the coolest and most well written of the female characters in Shikkamaru's generation. Not how kawaii the fandom finds them actually being together.


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## Bender (Mar 18, 2015)

@Seto Kaiba and CG

Fourth place people are not acknowledged as being impressive. In competitions or anything it's always those from first to third that at are fawned over.  If they're in top 3 "holy fucking!" 

Asura and Indra aren't. That's what I'm saying. End of story.


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## CyberianGinseng (Mar 18, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Seto Kaiba and CG
> 
> Fourth place people are not acknowledged as being impressive. In competitions or anything it's always those from first to third that at are fawned over.  If they're in top 3 "holy fucking!"
> 
> Asura and Indra aren't. That's what I'm saying. End of story.


Is this a tournament? Track and field? Ninja Olympics?

Nope.

Such considerations are usually only applied in sporting events or other competitions. This is not a spelling bee or steeple chase so I've no reason to take your pov seriously. 

Not only that, it's not even universally applied in those arenas. NBA and NFL regularly make lists of the top players of all time. Those lists are ALWAYS longer than the top three players of all time so your argument falls on its face on every level. Kobe Bryant just passed Jordan on the all time scoring list putting him at *third* behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Karl Malone. *No one with a brain* is suddenly claiming that Jordan is no longer one of the greatest scorers of all time.

Indra and Asura are two of the strongest people ever to walk the earth in the Narutoverse.

*"That's what I'm saying. End of story."*


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## Klue (Mar 18, 2015)

Damn CG, I have to spread.


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## shade0180 (Mar 18, 2015)

> Fourth place people are not acknowledged as being impressive. In competitions or anything it's always those from first to third that at are fawned over. If they're in top 3 "holy fucking!"
> 
> Asura and Indra aren't. That's what I'm saying. End of story


 And yet people acknowledge the top 10 in every competition every time. sure they don't get medals but they are considered part of the best.


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## Succubus (Mar 18, 2015)

I understand that Naruto, Fairy Tail and Bleach are terrible.. but worse than Nisekoi? what are you smokin


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## jemmathepintobean (Mar 18, 2015)

Bikko said:


> I understand that Naruto, Fairy Tail and Bleach are terrible.. but worse than Nisekoi? what are you smokin



I laugh for a good minute at this comment...


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## arokh (Mar 18, 2015)

I negged you OP but forgot to press "disapprove"


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## shade0180 (Mar 18, 2015)

Which mean you repped him.


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## Bender (Mar 18, 2015)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Is this a tournament? Track and field? Ninja Olympics?
> 
> Nope.



It's a power ranking system. And certain listed people are the only recognized figures to the masses. Remember the show Medabots?  For the Medabots tournament only the top 3 ranked people were allowed to compete for the regionals. Fourth is not acknowledged.






> Such considerations are usually only applied in sporting events or other competitions. This is not a spelling bee or steeple chase so* I've no reason to take your pov seriously*.



It's because you're not getting my point. 

LOOK: Kaguya, Hagoromo and Hamura are renowned throughout Shinobi history for the tremendous power that they wielded. They were the ones feared for how much destruction they were capable of causing with the same powers which were used to institute control over the land.

Asura and Indra were clan founders of both Senju and Uchiha respectively. Other than that nothing of the fearsome potential of their power was noted. NOT even in Obito's story of Rikkudo Sennin. 


Power house legends  >>>> Founders


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## Platypus (Mar 18, 2015)

^ Asura's chakra mode and Indra's Perfect Susanoo make both pretty much top tier. And considering the whole Ootsutsuki lineage is about powers being divided with each new generation, I don't see why they can't be counted as one of the strongest.
Don't know why you keep insisting only the top 3 count as the strongest characters or any _-est_ for that matter.


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## Bender (Mar 18, 2015)

@Platypus

I mean only the top 3 as the strongest and if reincarnated as Rikkudo Sennin and his brother Hamura maybe we could say "that has to be the most bullshit power up ever!"

Kaguya in Bijuu form is known for being a Continent wasting machine and Rikkudo Sennin and his brother have the Rinnegan and Tenseigan individually. Whenever those two are mentioned or episodes with them occur people shit bricks. 

Perfect Susanoo at its best is able to waste mountains as shown in Madara's fight with Gokages. Yes, that's impressive.  

When Juubi enters the picture however, the feats Madara performed with Perfect Susanoo look like poultry. 

It's the same if you insist that Asura and brother Indra are same level of impressive as Hagoromo and his brother Hamura.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 18, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Seto Kaiba and CG
> 
> Fourth place people are not acknowledged as being impressive. In competitions or anything it's always those from first to third that at are fawned over.  If they're in top 3 "holy fucking!"
> 
> Asura and Indra aren't. That's what I'm saying. End of story.



Your arbitrary criteria is idiotic. Fourth place is often considered as being impressive. There exists a concept of Top 5 or Top 10 or even Top 20 in a number of things. You trying specify it to the top three when it was never stated as being a matter of the top 3, but simply one of the strongest is just another attempt of yours to deny a blatant truth here. The truth that Ashura and Indra are counted as among the strongest shinobi in history.



> It's the same if you insist that Asura and brother Indra are same level of impressive as Hagoromo and his brother Hamura.



Holy fucking shit man, no one is saying that. They are however, all among the strongest. How is this so difficult for you?


----------



## Bender (Mar 18, 2015)

@Seto Kaiba

Then how come I don't see anyone in the story talking about how Asura and Indra are as powerful and destructive a force as their father Rikkudo Sennin and Hamura or Kaguya?

What the hell is with this baseless bullshit if you're piling on me?


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 18, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Platypus
> 
> I mean only the top 3 as the strongest and if reincarnated as Rikkudo Sennin and his brother Hamura maybe we could say "that has to be the most bullshit power up ever!"
> 
> ...



The thing is no one knew about Kaguya and Hamura as only Hagormo who stayed on Earth and taught ninshu was remembered. Madara had to learn about them form the Uchiha tablet which could only be read via the Rinnegan and Sasuke along with Naruto learned about them from Hagormo himself.

And while Hamura and Hagormo did defeat Juubi it might be possible for Asura and Indra to defeat Juubi too. At least Asura who got power from his dad like Naruto and Sasuke did...

It is hard to care about such distant legends though as people tend to focus on current top tiers rather than on the idea of someone who lived like 1000s of years ago and was praised to be superior to all but no one knew such person and no one saw those feats. It is easier to be in awe of what you saw yourself.

The past kages are still being held in high regard even with Naruto and Sasuke present. Are Hashi and Minato "mid- tiers" only in the eyes of the shinobi world since they are not in the same league as Kaguya and her sons?

In RL with such an attitude it would be impossible to enjoy sports anymore for example. Like...who cares about that sportsman being the best right now if there is a legend of like 2000 years ago there was a similar sport and the guy representing it was like 10 times better than the dude who is at the top right now? Would everyone suddenly stop caring for current stars and just fap to that legend whom no one can meet nor actually see in action?


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 18, 2015)

Bender said:


> Then how come I don't see anyone in the story talking about how Asura and Indra are as powerful and destructive a force as their father Rikkudo Sennin and Hamura or Kaguya?



They were specifically cited as inheriting and embodying one aspect of their father's powers, and Naruto and Sasuke's own abilities specifically cited as an inheritors of their own abilities. This is getting desperate now.


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## Bender (Mar 18, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:
			
		

> *Holy fucking shit man, no one is saying that*. They are however, all among the strongest. How is this so difficult for you?



Well you sure are goddamn fucking implying it!

If the powers Asura and Indra have are nowhere near the unimaginably destructive height of terror that Rikkudo Sennin's Rinnegan, Hamura's Tenseigan or Kaguya there should no be bitching about Naruto and Sasuke's "freebie" power up.

That's my whole fucking point. Good lord. 


EDIT:



> They were specifically cited as inheriting and embodying one aspect of their father's powers, and Naruto and Sasuke's own abilities specifically cited as an inheritors of their own abilities.



Provide a source or you're bullshitting.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 18, 2015)

Bender said:


> Well you sure are goddamn fucking implying it!
> 
> If the powers Asura and Indra have are nowhere near the unimaginably destructive height of terror that Rikkudo Sennin's Rinnegan, Hamura's Tenseigan or Kaguya there should no be bitching about Naruto and Sasuke's "freebie" power up.
> 
> That's my whole fucking point. Good lord.



No. No one implied that at all. Hamura, Hagoromo, and Kaguya being the strongest period does not discount the fact that Ashura and Indra are among the strongest. Because before Madara, Hashirama, Sasuke, and Naruto there were none stronger or as strong as they other than their three predecessors. 



> EDIT:
> 
> Provide a source or you're bullshitting.



Really? Hagoromo specifically stating not only Naruto was Ashura's reincarnation but had inherited his chakra as well?


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## Bender (Mar 18, 2015)

@Seto Kaiba

 

Annnnnnnnnnd you failed my challenge. 

I wanted something that noted their destructive capability that rivaled that of the top 3 tiers. 



> No. No one implied that at all. Hamura, Hagoromo, and Kaguya being the strongest period does not discount the fact that Ashura and Indra are among the strongest.





> Because before Madara, Hashirama, Sasuke, and Naruto there were none stronger or as strong as they other than their three predecessors.




You're saying they shouldn't have had to grind their powers because they're reincarnations of Asura and Indra just like Turrin. 



> It's this type of shit that Naruto consistently does in it's final arcs, that makes me feel like the manga is the worst thing i've ever read, because it so blatantly revels in the fact that it is destroying everything that originally made the story work.
> 
> Part I "Naruto is a hard-working underdog, who through his strength of character will gain the acknowledgement of those close to him"



Naruto and Sasuke along with Madara and Hashirama had to build the hell up out of their powers. Hell, even as young adults Naruto and Sasuke didn't unlock the ultimate techniques of their reincarnation Asura and Indra. Rikkudo Sennin giving his power to Naruto and Sasuke allowed them to reach the prime levels of their power.

That's some full on retard shit insinuating them being reincarnation guarantees they'll be strong. Both were handed their asses by Madara wielding only a single Rinnegan when he's bought back to life.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 18, 2015)

Your challenge? You just are one that keeps moving the goalpost the more evident it is that he's wrong on matters. As someone told you before, the best, the strongest, this is not exclusive to the Top 3. 

Ashura and Indra are among the strongest, it isn't rocket science.



> You're saying they shouldn't have had to grind their powers because they're reincarnations of Asura and Indra just like Turrin.



You cannot be this dim. The only thing I argued to you is that Ashura and Indra are among the strongest, and your attempt to arbitrarily define as what is the strongest in an attempt to deny them their place is stupid.


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## Dark Forces (Mar 18, 2015)

a shonen manga is a commercial product for jap little boys, you'll have to live with that

they have analysts that calculate what will make more money and that's the main story driver, being coherent is far less important than making money through fan service

if you've grown up, I suggest you move on


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## Godly Giraffe - King of the Uverworld (Mar 18, 2015)

Naruto sucks but it's not the worst manga ever made. I could pick out 10 or so that are worse from just your list, most of which have already been mentioned.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 18, 2015)

Dark Forces said:


> a shonen manga is a commercial product for jap little boys, you'll have to live with that
> 
> they have analysts that calculate what will make more money and that's the main story driver, being coherent is far less important than making money through fan service
> 
> if you've grown up, I suggest you move on



what fan service do you speak of


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## CyberianGinseng (Mar 18, 2015)

Bender said:


> It's a power ranking system. And certain listed people are the only recognized figures to the masses. Remember the show Medabots?  For the Medabots tournament only the top 3 ranked people were allowed to compete for the regionals. Fourth is not acknowledged.


It's your ranking system. As I stated it's not universally applied. Not even close. 

No I don't remember the show Medabots. Never even heard of it.





> It's because you're not getting my point.
> 
> LOOK: Kaguya, Hagoromo and Hamura are renowned throughout Shinobi history for the tremendous power that they wielded. They were the ones feared for how much destruction they were capable of causing with the same powers which were used to institute control over the land.
> 
> ...


Only Hagoromo is renowned throughout history. Hamura was almost completely forgotten until Kaguya and then Toneri showed up.  

I got your point just fine. You didn't get mine, which is why you cut out half my post so you wouldn't have to deal with it.

Here let me repost it for your convenience:





			
				CyberianGinseng said:
			
		

> . NBA and NFL regularly make lists of the top players of all time. Those lists are ALWAYS longer than the top three players of all time so your argument falls on its face on every level. Kobe Bryant just passed Jordan on the all time scoring list putting him at *third* behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Karl Malone. *No one with a brain* is suddenly claiming that Jordan is no longer one of the greatest scorers of all time.
> 
> Indra and Asura are two of the strongest people ever to walk the earth in the Narutoverse.


As you can see, Jordan dropping to fourth on the all time scorers list doesn't magically mean he's no longer *one* of the greatest scorers of all time.

Similarly with Asura and Indra or Sasuke and Naruto.


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## Alkaid (Mar 18, 2015)

Wasted potential the manga. The one thing I will never get over is Kishimoto adapting his art into the anime style in favor of the style used in part 1. On the matter of rating, I would put it at about 6/10 which is about average. Mostly because of part 1 being absolutely amazing and some solid battles in part 2. Part 2 is kind of a train wreck post Pein. People blowing the child of prophecy thing out of the water, and Kaguya appearing because Madara went against Kishimoto's will and become overpowered as fuck.

I think when people judge this series, they do it from an unfair standpoint. They judge it from an angle as a work aimed towards adults, when the main demographic is aimed towards children and teenagers. I find this is especially true because it's a long running series. Most people started this series when they were very young, and continued reading it into adulthood and came to expect more from it. They then became jaded about the series as they continued to read it unable to stop. It's ridiculously hard to stop doing something that you've been emotionally invested in for years, just look at the shipping fandom in this series.

As far as I'm concerned it's an average shonen at best, and a well of un utilized potential at worst. The worst piece of fiction you've ever read? I literally don't understand how that's possible when looking at your reading list.


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## ch1p (Mar 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Yes, because it was Neji's choice in the end.





Yes, he "chose" it. Because he's a real person with free will. No. This is a written story. Neji died for the same reasons as his father did, saving the "sibling" from the main branch. Plus, that is what the  secondary branch does, protect the main branch. You may be okay with it because he "decided for himself" (whatever that means in a written story", but the reason why he did it was destiny one way or the other. Kishi fucked up there. Royally. Personal preference has no place in a 'final critique of Naruto' if you want it to remain objective.

My point is, you may even like Neji over other characters and you may be ready to excuse the flaws around his character, but if you think his arc is considered passable, then you have no right in nitpicking at the rest. *At all.*



> By most desirable pairing I mean that Temari is probably the coolest and most well written of the female characters in Shikkamaru's generation. Not how kawaii the fandom finds them actually being together.



She's the coolest? She did zero in part 2, she's background who had like two lines towards her brother, two lines towards Shikamaru, and ends up marrying him. Do you honestly think she's better written than Tsunade? Sakura, Tsunade, Chyo, they're significant, Konan is debatable but I'll mention her. Temari is not, write her out and nothing will be lost. Temari is a cool character, but like many of Kishi's characters (female or no female), she's "useless" to the plot. You sayng that she and the pairing she ended up in is the most desirable is complete bulshit. It may speak of your personal preferences, but it has no place in an objective 'final critique to Naruto'.

My point is this. Again, if you consider Temari the coolest and well written when she's what she is, then you have no right in nitpicking at the rest of the females. *At all.*


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 18, 2015)

> My point is this. Again, if you consider Temari the coolest and well written when she's what she is, then you have no right in nitpicking at the rest of the females. At all.



How does this logic work? This seems to imply she was the worst written female character.


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## Zef (Mar 18, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> They were specifically cited as inheriting and embodying one aspect of their father's powers, and Naruto and *Sasuke's own abilities* specifically cited as an inheritors of their own abilities. This is getting desperate now.



Indra doesn't have Rinnegan.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 18, 2015)

Zef said:


> Indra doesn't have Rinnegan.



Yeah i'm not even sure ashura was a full on jinchuriki either. Naruto and Sasuke seem like ashura and indra with a buff or two.


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## Godly Giraffe - King of the Uverworld (Mar 18, 2015)

Wasn't the fox created when the geezer died? Could just mean he was sealed right around that time.


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## ch1p (Mar 19, 2015)

> How does this logic work? This seems to imply she was the worst written female character.



Uh-uh.

Temari isn't a bad character, but she's irrelevant wallpaper. She has no goals or motivations to speak of, and she revolves around either Gaara or Shikamaru, and even those two things amount to 2 or 3 lines in total in part 2. Take her out of the story in part 1, and not much is lost. Take her out of the story in part 2, and nothing is lost. In this, she and Kankuro are about the same. The only edge she has over Kankuro is that Temari's needed to produce Shikadai.

I'm not saying she's a bad character, nor is it about whether one likes or not, I don't hate or anything. I'm saying she's irrelevant to the overall storyline and her only real use was to give Shikamaru a wife, especially in part 2 where she does zero. So Turrin saying that the fandom considers her 'most desirable' about anything that includes her is a joke, especially when he likes to bash the other characters for being irrelevant or pairing fodder.

Turrin may prefer Temari to the rest all he wants. However, that opinion has no place in pointing out the flaws of the series. In fact, she embodies many flaws of the series. We're talking about a NARUTO critique, not his personal opinion.


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## Epyon (Mar 19, 2015)

ch1p said:


> Uh-uh.
> 
> Temari isn't a bad character, but she's irrelevant wallpaper. She has no goals or motivations to speak of, and she revolves around either Gaara or Shikamaru, and even those two things amount to 2 or 3 lines in total in part 2. Take her out of the story in part 1, and not much is lost. Take her out of the story in part 2, and nothing is lost. In this, she and Kankuro are about the same. The only edge she has over Kankuro is that Temari's needed to produce Shikadai.
> 
> ...



Take her out and you lose the only Suna character with enough character to object to the out of nowhere invasion plan. You lose one of the better fights in Part 1. 

Take her out of Part 2 and Naruto basically rescues Gaara in a vacuum. Kankuro is out cold which means Chiyo, whose a hermit who barely met Gaara  is the only Suna character that contributeds to the kidnapped Kazelkage and interacts with Naruto, allowing him to play off them and show how the treatment of Jinchuurikis effected them both. 

Also Temari is the only character beside Naruto with half-decent Fuuton techniques in the entire shinobi army and indeed, the only non-Naruto, none Kage character had anything too contribute to the Madara and Edo Kages fight. 

She revolves too much about Gaara and Shikamaru and she didn't get too say enough, I agree. But she's a female character that works in the role she's given. She also didn't instantly fall in outright love with Shikamaru at 6 years old and has been about that and nothing but that ever since like so many female characters. 

If we saw more of her she might prove me wrong but as it stands she's not as bad as Konan, who we know utterly devotes her entire being too Nagato and Yahiko, gives up that life even after they're dead, sheerly for the sake of their memory, turns to a life terrorism and blowing up continents, killing her sensei and all that sheerly because _Nagato _is being manipulated into doing something even he doesn't believe in. And unlike the Konoha love interests, she never had any intention of even having a family with Nagato. Sure, it would have been a terribly stereotypical female motivation but at least it would have been a goal/motivation. Konan is nothing. Just an aspect of Nagato's will that shows little more autonomy then any of the paths. Tsunade's a Kage that bends too Naruto's will at every opportunity. She never did anything to deal with Danzo, Sasuke had to do it for her. Jiraiya had send himself on the dangerous missions because Tsunade was too wishywashy about it. Konoha is destroyed and Tsunade has to resign to letting Naruto fight for her, as a Hokage, that's her big moment. 

Hinata gets more time to flesh out her ladyboner for Naruto yes. It only serves to make her problematic. Since, unlike Shikamaru, Naruto's a main character, we KNOW Naruto spends no time with her. And because she confessed long before end of manga, and because Kishimoto can't imagine having people come together before the end of manga, Naruto had continue to ignore her for hundreds of chapters. Neji had to die to give Hinata the angle she needed basically. Temari has Gaara and maybe vague enthusiasm in fighting and responsibilities to the Sand. But that's loads more then Hinata's got, it's crystalclear that confessing to Naruto is something she had been working towards for years. And it happened and Naruto kinda decided to forget about it until further notice.


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## ch1p (Mar 19, 2015)

Epyon said:


> Take her out and you lose the only Suna character with enough character to object to the out of nowhere invasion plan. You lose one of the better fights in Part 1.
> 
> Take her out of Part 2 and Naruto basically rescues Gaara in a vacuum. Kankuro is out cold which means Chiyo, whose a hermit who barely met Gaara  is the only Suna character that contributeds to the kidnapped Kazelkage and interacts with Naruto, allowing him to play off them and show how the treatment of Jinchuurikis effected them both.
> 
> ...



What does it matter if Temari 'opposed' the Sand invasion? That happened for like one panel and it had no consequence. Which is my point. She has no relevance to the plot.

Temari was irrelevant in the Rescue Gaara arc. She showed up but did nothing. I'm not sure if you're talking about the anime and that is different there. I wouldn't know since I don't watch it.

Temari has wind jutsu yes. That is almost never showcased. Which is my point, again. She has no relevance to the plot.

*I didn't say Temari didn't work for the role she was given. I said Turrin is a joke when he says Temari was either well written or that the pairing she's part of was 'most desirable', especially when he trashes other characters for the same flaws Temari has in spades.*

Temari has no relevance in part 2, there isn't a point in the story where she's needed. Konan had relevance for a moment or two in part 2, same for Hinata. You can't take away the Konan VS Obito fight away, because he still needs to go find Nagato's eyes. You can't take away Hinata's confession either, even if you are disdainful of it, because it triggered Naruto's KN8 transformation and made him meet his father. You can't take away Hinata's slapping of Naruto either, because he needed support. On the other hand, you can erase every single of Temari's appearances and nothing changes. Regardless of this difference, I don't see where I said Konan or Hinata were any "better" than Temari regarding their irrelevancy either. So I've got no idea why you bring these two up in the first place.

Regarding Tsunade, you may trash her all you want, but she's still the Hokage who actually does something and she's relevant to the plot. You cannot erase her, like you can Temari, or even debatably Konan... Tsunade doesn't bend to Naruto at any point. She does believe in him, which are two different things. If you think that she "bended" for him at any point, then Temari be bended (without any "." there) for Gaara and Baki in part 1 as well, so IDK what are you even so proud of. Tsunade didn't do anything to Danzo because there was nothing that she could do. Sasuke had no such problems because he was a loose canon, who could do something about it because he was criminal operating outside the rules. Again, if you think Tsunade "bended" to Danzo (whatever that is for you when she did no such thing), then Temari bended (without any "." there) for Gaara and Baki in part 1 as well, so IDK what are you even so proud of, again. Jiraiya didn't go on missions in Tsunade's place. She's the Hokage. She doesn't go on missions, wtf. Tsunade healed the whole village, later she healed the alliance, its of no consequence if Naruto fought too. Furthermore, Tsunade didn't get to fight because of editor's fault, not because she's 'irrelevant'. She fought Madara. Temari never healed a single person, nor has she saved anyone outside of her future husband, nor has she fought anyone of notice let alone on panel in part 2. I get comparing Temari to Konan (sort of). Now Tsunade?


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## Epyon (Mar 19, 2015)

ch1p said:


> What does it matter if Temari 'opposed' the Sand invasion? That happened for like one panel and it had no consequence. Which is my point. She has no relevance to the plot.
> 
> Temari was irrelevant in the Rescue Gaara arc. She showed up but did nothing. I'm not sure if you're talking about the anime and that is different there. I wouldn't know since I don't watch it.
> 
> ...



Relevance isn't everything. Getting to do something important isn't everything. Kaguya was important, she created the whole ninjaworld. Based on your qualifications she's objectively better then all the other Naruto characters combined. When actually, we all know she's the worst idea Kishimoto has come up with. Obito's important, he sucks too. Sasuke did hugely important things in the Kage Summit Arc and onwards but it utterly destroyed any coherency the character had. And yes, Tsunade did bend to Naruto. She didn't want to be Hokage, Naruto bullied her into it. She didn't want to sent people after Itachi and Sasuke, Naruto bullied her into it. An editor may have been behind the decision but in the story it's Naruto whose like "you shouldn't be dealing with stuff like this. Go have some tea or whatever it is you do." Which goes against everything that's eatablished about Hokage. and indeed the central plot point of Tsunade recruition arc. Temari bend to Baki and Gaara too. But they're her Jounin sensei and upcoming Kage. She's not Suna's leader in her own right. There's no problem there. That Gaara can command is a neccesary thing to establish and characters like Temari need to be around to eatablish this. 

And I didn't say Tsunade should have gone in Jiraiya's place. I'm saying Tsunade should be the one to sent Jiraiya. Instead Jiraiya had to come up with everything on his own, got Tsunade drunk enough to agree and thus the path to the Akatsuki Leader's demise was opened. She was an obstacte. And I didn't say she bend to Danzo, I'm saying she was the one that Danzo had an established antagonistic relationship with. But she didn't do anything about him and instead of being allowed to answer his crazy powergrab when she was wakes up, he gets fed to Sasuke instead.


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## Dark Forces (Mar 19, 2015)

naruto may not be the worst shit ever written because it's always possible to write shittier than shit... but naruto is still shit

among the "popular shonen" I don't remember of anything as bad, but I haven't read hundreds of shonens, perhaps 20 or so, I've come this far only because part 1 was kinda decent, but part 2 I've never read seriously, perhaps 2 minutes per chapter, and I was often skipping a dozen of chapter to catch up, without part 1, I would never have read this shit for so long, no way, I'd have trashed the book out the windows long ago

tl;dr : naruto = shit


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 19, 2015)

At least its better then Fairy tail


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## Eylandos (Mar 19, 2015)

Naruto is pretty shit but it isn't that bad. I think you are overdoing it by calling it the worst piece of fiction you ever read.

Fairy Tail and Freezing are clearly both worse.


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## Turrin (Mar 19, 2015)

ch1p said:


> Yes, he "chose" it. Because he's a real person with free will. No. This is a written story. Neji died for the same reasons as his father did, saving the "sibling" from the main branch. Plus, that is what the  secondary branch does, protect the main branch. You may be okay with it because he "decided for himself" (whatever that means in a written story", but the reason why he did it was destiny one way or the other. Kishi fucked up there. Royally. Personal preference has no place in a 'final critique of Naruto' if you want it to remain objective.
> [/B]


Yes it's a story and I'm looking at Neji's arc as a character in the story.  Was Neji leaping in to save Hinata presented as his destiny or fate in the story? Or was it presented as Neji making a choice to do so. That's the differencen t or to put it simply within the story the reason for Neji saving Hinata was not destiny. Sure on a meta level Kishi decided Neji's fate, but that's irrelevant as Kishi decides all the characters fates and were talking about a specific characters arc.



> Personal preference has no place in a 'final critique of Naruto' if you want it to remain objective.


There is no such thing as an objective critique of a literary work, because what is and isn't "good" is subjective on many different levels.



> My point is, you may even like Neji over other characters and you may be ready to excuse the flaws around his character, but if you think his arc is considered passable, then you have no right in nitpicking at the rest. At all.


Oh please your looking for a reason to complain at this point, nothing more. Saying Neji had a "passable" character arc, in no way means i'm excusing the flaws around his character, hence why I say it's only passable. Do I need to define how passable used in this context for you? I use passable to indicate it's just barely avoiding being terrible.



> She's the coolest? She did zero in part 2, she's background who had like two lines towards her brother, two lines towards Shikamaru, and ends up marrying him. Do you honestly think she's better written than Tsunade? Sakura, Tsunade, Chyo, they're significant, Konan is debatable but I'll mention her. Temari is not, write her out and nothing will be lost. Temari is a cool character, but like many of Kishi's characters (female or no female), she's "useless" to the plot.


Repeat after me: in shikkamaru's generation. Now say it again; in shikkamaru's generation. Do you see whats wrong with literally every part of your complain; in case you missed it, one more time GENERATION.



> You sayng that she and the pairing she ended up in is the most desirable is complete bulshit. It may speak of your personal preferences, but it has no place in an objective 'final critique to Naruto


Did I put it in the OP no. I stated such when responding to Munboy about how I felt my favorite characters were treated in the series. Clearly that is all subjective opinion on my part. So what the hell are you talking about, like seriously.



> My point is this. Again, if you consider Temari the coolest and well written when she's what she is, then you have no right in nitpicking at the rest of the females. At all.


I consider Temari the coolest and most well written of her GENERATION, i.e. going up against the steep competition that is Suckura, Ten-Fodder, Ino, and so on. Compared to the other females in her generation, Temari is a VASTLY more respectable character. And while her role in Part II was minor, that was probably why she avoided being character raped by Kishi.


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## SoulFire (Mar 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Yes it's a story and I'm looking at Neji's arc as a character in the story.  Was Neji leaping in to save Hinata presented as his destiny or fate in the story? Or was it presented as Neji making a choice to do so. That's the differencen t or to put it simply within the story the reason for Neji saving Hinata was not destiny. Sure on a meta level Kishi decided Neji's fate, but that's irrelevant as Kishi decides all the characters fates and were talking about a specific characters arc.


First off, Neji jumped in to save _Naruto_--that was what he, Hinata and Hiashi had set themselves up to do. Only moments earlier they were forming a protective barrier between Naruto and the Juubi. The fact that he also wanted to save his cousin is neither here nor there. As I believe you are saying, it was his choice to save them _both_.

Within development of the story Neji's death was necessary in order to drop Naruto's resolve to the depths and allow Hinata to raise him back up with her words and touch. He was a character with which they both had connections and thus his death connected them to one another in their horror and sorrow.  That is what Kishi meant with that careless 'cupid' remark. Yes, Neji's death was a plot point, but are not all of the actions taken by all of the characters in order to advance the story in the direction the author desires?



> There is no such thing as an objective critique of a literary work, because what is and isn't "good" is subjective on many different levels.



Exactly. While you and others may consider Naruto worse than pond scum, I and others may find it just passable or absolutely love it for some reason or another.


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## Turrin (Mar 19, 2015)

SoulFire! said:


> First off, Neji jumped in to save _Naruto_--that was what he, Hinata and Hiashi had set themselves up to do. Only moments earlier they were forming a protective barrier between Naruto and the Juubi. The fact that he also wanted to save his cousin is neither here nor there. As I believe you are saying, it was his choice to save them _both_.
> 
> Within development of the story Neji's death was necessary in order to drop Naruto's resolve to the depths and allow Hinata to raise him back up with her words and touch. He was a character with which they both had connections and thus his death connected them to one another in their horror and sorrow.  That is what Kishi meant with that careless 'cupid' remark. Yes, Neji's death was a plot point, but are not all of the actions taken by all of the characters in order to advance the story in the direction the author desires?


This is all true.



> Exactly. While you and others may consider Naruto worse than pond scum, I and others may find it just passable or absolutely love it for some reason or another.


Agreed and there is nothing wrong with others that enjoyed the story more than I, in-fact I think it's great that you and others did enjoy it more. Nor would I come into a thread praising Naruto and argue it's not a critique because it lacks objectivity, even if I may wish to discuss points in said critique that I disagree with.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 19, 2015)

Naruto is the best shonen at least


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## Danzio (Mar 20, 2015)

**

What a horrible, horrible thread:


- Calls Naruto "the worst piece of fiction ", yet is proudly reading garbage like Fairy Tail.

- OP admits he's dedicated an insane amount of time reading, discussing Naruto for years, never once stopping in his tracks, despite it being the worst piece of fiction he's ever read. He's either a real masochist or he is being completely disingenuous.  Either way, it makes no sense.

- To make matters worse OP is getting facts wrong left and right. For example, Naruto was extremely talented  from the very get-go; unfortunately due to the fox he couldn't properly mold his chakra which made basic stuff like chakra manipulation hard for him (still possessed a massive amount of chakra). Early on, based on his looks, it was also very obvious he was Minato's son.   

- *Stories progress and the main character can't remain stagnant* something OP apparently can't come to terms with. It was only a matter of time before Naruto realized his potential, and Part 2 Naruto worked just as hard as his old-self if not even harder. 

- Naruto remaining fixated on Sakura ? What manga are we talking about ? It can't be Naruto because he let Sakura go after the fake confession and moved on and build a happy family with another woman without ever looking back or lusting after his former crush.

- OP is also implying Sakura should have gave in to Naruto just because he's a good dude, which is ludicrous.  She's not obligated to have reciprocated feelings of love back out of guilt if the feelings simply  aren't there. It doesn't have anything to do with being a perceived underdog or someone who appears to have it all. It's all about taste.  



I could go on and on. What an abomination.


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## Epyon (Mar 20, 2015)

Danzio said:


> - OP is also implying Sakura should have gave in to Naruto just because he's a good dude, which is ludicrous.  She's not obligated to have reciprocated feelings of love back  out of guilt if the feelings simply  aren't there. It doesn't have anything to do with being a perceived underdog. It's all about taste.



Nor are Sasuke and Naruto, and it's pretty clear they had way less interest in Sakura and Hinata (romantically) then Sakura did in Naruto. But they did have to cave for the sake of a happy ending that included babies. Kakashi even basically tells Sasuke "Sakura is in love you no matter and you WILL deal with that!"


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## Danzio (Mar 20, 2015)

Epyon said:


> Nor are Sasuke and Naruto, and it's pretty clear they had way less interest in Sakura and Hinata (romantically) then Sakura did in Naruto. But they did have to cave for the sake of a happy ending that included babies. Kakashi even basically tells Sasuke "Sakura is in love you no matter and you WILL deal with that!"



No one is ... and no, it's not very clear. We didn't _know_ how Naruto felt about  Hinato before the end where the answer became very clear.There is a big difference between not knowing what is going on as viewer and then forcing a pair together who clearly aren't in love.

Sasuke lost his damn mind. His whole situation used to be extremely complicated so I wont go in to that.


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## Epyon (Mar 20, 2015)

Danzio said:


> No one is ... and no, it's not very clear. We didn't _know_ how Naruto felt about  Hinato before the end where the answer became very clear.There is a big difference between not knowing what is going on as viewer and then forcing a pair together who clearly aren't in love.
> 
> Sasuke lost his damn mind. His whole situation used to be extremely complicated so I wont go in to that.



We know that Hinata confesses to Naruto, no ifs no buts. We know that after that, he just hangs around, with Kakashi and Sakura before the Kage summit arc fully begins, then comes back and hangs around some more with Iruka and random konoha ninja dudes to reestablish his underdog status in preparation for the Dark Naruto thing. Then finally run into Hinata again during the war, doesn't deal with it. Runs into her a second time in the Obito fight, still doesn't deal with it. And then TWO YEARS PASS before he finally deals with it, if I get the movie's plot correctly. 

And yeah, Sasuke lost his mind, that doesn't mean he forfeits the right to not be with someone he ever wanted to be with in that way before. He made damn clear he doesn't reciprocate Sakura's feelings a million times over the course of the series. There's nothing complicated about it. But he had too do her anyway for the sake of the ending, I accept that. But don't tell me there's a  real reason it couldn't have been Naruto and Sakura instead.


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## ch1p (Mar 20, 2015)

Epyon said:


> Relevance isn't everything. Getting to do something important isn't everything. Kaguya was important, she created the whole ninjaworld. Based on your qualifications she's objectively better then all the other Naruto characters combined. When actually, we all know she's the worst idea Kishimoto has come up with.



Actually, no, I'm talking about them actually being needed to the plot. Tsunade is needed for the plot. Kaguya is some bulshit Kishi pulled out of his ass at the eleventh hour, so no, she wasn't needed at all. Temari wasn't needed at all, but at least she was irrelevant, so there was no ass to pull.



> And yes, Tsunade did bend to Naruto. She didn't want to be Hokage, Naruto bullied her into it.



That's a lie. Tsunade told Naruto to fuck off several times during her introductory arc. She only decided to be Hokage after she saw Dan / Nawaki in Naruto.



> She didn't want to sent people after Itachi and Sasuke, Naruto bullied her into it.



That's a lie. Unless it was made in the anime. In the manga, Tsunade sent the rookies after Sasuke, not Naruto.



> An editor may have been behind the decision but in the story it's Naruto whose like "you shouldn't be dealing with stuff like this. Go have some tea or whatever it is you do." Which goes against everything that's eatablished about Hokage  and indeed the central plot point of Tsunade recruition arc.



Yes, and I criticised it as one of Kishi's bad writing moments (the penchant to roll over for his editors). How's that relevant for *Tsunade*'s role in the story?



> Temari bend to Baki and Gaara too. But they're her Jounin sensei and upcoming Kage. She's not Suna's leader in her own right. There's no problem there. That Gaara can command is a neccesary thing to establish and characters like Temari need to be around to eatablish this.



Sorry, but Gaara wasn't an upcoming Kage when he was 12. I don't blame her for cowering, but you're excusing her flaws when you excuse none of the others.



> And I didn't say Tsunade should have gone in Jiraiya's place. I'm saying Tsunade should be the one to sent Jiraiya. Instead Jiraiya had to come up with everything on his own, got Tsunade drunk enough to agree and thus the path to the Akatsuki Leader's demise was opened. She was an obstacte. And I didn't say she bend to Danzo, I'm saying she was the one that Danzo had an established antagonistic relationship with. But she didn't do anything about him and instead of being allowed to answer his crazy powergrab when she was wakes up, he gets fed to Sasuke instead.



You're shifting the goal posts.

Tsunade sending or not sending Jiraiya after Pain is irrelevant.

Danzo had an antagonist relationship with Tsunade and so what of it? She didn't let him bulshit his way around like Hiruzen did. I'm not sure why do you even speak of Danzo as something bad. Tsunade stood up to him, which is more than it can be said for the rest of the people with power.



Turrin said:


> Yes it's a story and I'm looking at Neji's arc as a character in the story.  Was Neji leaping in to save Hinata presented as his destiny or fate in the story? Or was it presented as Neji making a choice to do so. That's the differencen t or to put it simply within the story the reason for Neji saving Hinata was not destiny. Sure on a meta level Kishi decided Neji's fate, but that's irrelevant as Kishi decides all the characters fates and were talking about a specific characters arc.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Oh please your looking for a reason to complain at this point, nothing more. Saying Neji had a "passable" character arc, in no way means i'm excusing the flaws around his character, hence why I say it's only passable. Do I need to define how passable used in this context for you? I use passable to indicate it's just barely avoiding being terrible.



The story presented Naruto's power as the result of team work, even at the very end, so you can't complain about it then as you did in OP. Ashura was also persented as someone who got his power because of hard work and cooperation. 

Naruto only said to change his destiny if people didn't like it. He certainly liked being the chosen one and having powerups pulled out of his ass. Naruto never stated that it was one of his goals to get Sakura to like him. Kishi was very careful not to include that in his chapter 4 goals. And etc etc.

If 'how the story presents it' is your definition of what gets done and what doesn't, then you have no case in the OP as the examples above demonstrate so well.



> There is no such thing as an objective critique of a literary work, because what is and isn't "good" is subjective on many different levels.



A critique is a careful judgement, not your opinion. Use better words next time.



> Repeat after me: in shikkamaru's generation. Now say it again; in shikkamaru's generation. Do you see whats wrong with literally every part of your complain; in case you missed it, one more time GENERATION.
> 
> Did I put it in the OP no. I stated such when responding to Munboy about how I felt my favorite characters were treated in the series. Clearly that is all subjective opinion on my part. So what the hell are you talking about, like seriously.
> 
> I consider Temari the coolest and most well written of her GENERATION, i.e. going up against the steep competition that is Suckura, Ten-Fodder, Ino, and so on. Compared to the other females in her generation, Temari is a VASTLY more respectable character. And while her role in Part II was minor, that was probably why she avoided being character raped by Kishi.



Considering you said that OP is actually your opinion and not a critique, this reaks of contradictions. You're excusing liking Temari with your opinion, not a proper judgement of her case.

Temari is irrelevant to the plot, and that's the truth, not an opinion. She's not 'most desirable' anything by the fandom. She has no place in a final critique evaluating the thematic of Naruto.



Epyon said:


> We know that Hinata confesses to Naruto, no ifs no buts. We know that after that, he just hangs around, with Kakashi and Sakura before the Kage summit arc fully begins, then comes back and hangs around some more with Iruka and random konoha ninja dudes to reestablish his underdog status in preparation for the Dark Naruto thing. Then finally run into Hinata again during the war, doesn't deal with it. Runs into her a second time in the Obito fight, still doesn't deal with it. And then TWO YEARS PASS before he finally deals with it, if I get the movie's plot correctly.



So what? You're complaining he took a long time, I agree with that, but it doesn't take that fact that he got there. While Sakura never got there with Naruto, because she was never interested.



> And yeah, Sasuke lost his mind, that doesn't mean he forfeits the right to not be with someone he ever wanted to be with in that way before. He made damn clear he doesn't reciprocate Sakura's feelings a million times over the course of the series. There's nothing complicated about it. But he had too do her anyway for the sake of the ending, I accept that. But don't tell me there's a  real reason it couldn't have been Naruto and Sakura instead.



Sasuke considered Sakura a dear person to him and was ready to die for her sake, was jealous when she looked at another guy and smiled at him instead, and was grateful to her feelings (the least that scene can be taken as). This before part 2 even started. So your evaluation of Sasuke's feelings for Sakura is quite flawed.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 20, 2015)

Still best shonen, that will forever be in our hearts whether you like it or not.  That is why you try to convince yourself it "sucks" because you just can't deal with the pain that comes with having your favorite characters neglected and now the story coming to an end.  It hurts...but denying your love will not purge this pain.


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## Seto Kaiba (Mar 20, 2015)

ch1p said:


> Uh-uh.
> 
> Temari isn't a bad character, but she's irrelevant wallpaper. She has no goals or motivations to speak of, and she revolves around either Gaara or Shikamaru, and even those two things amount to 2 or 3 lines in total in part 2. Take her out of the story in part 1, and not much is lost. Take her out of the story in part 2, and nothing is lost. In this, she and Kankuro are about the same. The only edge she has over Kankuro is that Temari's needed to produce Shikadai.
> 
> ...



Your logic is flawed. As being a side character is not equivalent to being a bad character, you say you aren't hating on her but you are arguing under that logic. Her dynamic with Shikamaru was a constant thing, but it wasn't the only dominating aspect of her character; even moreso, it was not mired in the romantic melodrama those like Sakura, Hinata, Ino, or Karin are criticized for being wrapped in. The former four were virtually all about their infatuations, and they received attention more often than not in relation to their infatuations, and this matter when assessed alongside other developments surrounding it is what makes people look at their characters as compromised. 

Critique is entirely dependent on personal opinion.


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## Epyon (Mar 21, 2015)

ch1p said:


> Actually, no, I'm talking about them actually being needed to the plot. Tsunade is needed for the plot.



Then I apologise. I personally don't grade character quality on "being needed for the plot."



> That's a lie. Tsunade told Naruto to fuck off several times during her introductory arc. She only decided to be Hokage after she saw Dan / Nawaki in Naruto.



Well he didn't fuck off, and Dan and Nawaki were never in Naruto. Naruto was in Naruto. And Naruto was only there to convince Tsunade to be Hokage, despite the fact that she had already explained she was not interested. Naruto's will prevailed over Tsunade's, the end.



> That's a lie. Unless it was made in the anime. In the manga, Tsunade sent the rookies after Sasuke, not Naruto.



Can you tell me where she does this?
what was happening during the war

She asks Naruto incrediously what his plan is and everything else is decided without any further input from her.



> Yes, and I criticised it as one of Kishi's bad writing moments (the penchant to roll over for his editors). How's that relevant for *Tsunade*'s role in the story?



It SHOULD have been height of Tsunade's character arc. As I said, the whole theme of Tsunade's recruition arc is "being willing to put your life on the line for the sake of the village."

Tsunade had great moments in the war arc. But they can't make up for not being allowed to be what a Hokage should be for her village when push came to shove.



> Sorry, but Gaara wasn't an upcoming Kage when he was 12. I don't blame her for cowering, but you're excusing her flaws when you excuse none of the others.



Yeah, she has flaws. She was scared of Gaara, something she overcame.



> You're shifting the goal posts.



I made perfectly clear I don't care for you grading system "relevant or not relevant." from the start.



> Tsunade sending or not sending Jiraiya after Pain is irrelevant.



It is too her character, and how she is presented. She's the Hokage. This should be her call. Jiraiya was the one Kishimoto decided should be shown as strong and decisive and the one who moves the plans forward, not Tsunade.



> Danzo had an antagonist relationship with Tsunade and so what of it? She didn't let him bulshit his way around like Hiruzen did. I'm not sure why do you even speak of Danzo as something bad. Tsunade stood up to him, which is more than it can be said for the rest of the people with power.



Danzo was only conceived as a thing for Tsunade to deal with long after Hiruzen was dead. He didn't have "a" antagonistic relationship with Tsunade. He only had a relationship with Tsunade. He never met Naruto, he never met Kakashi. And Tsunade stood up to him how exactly? He still put Sai on that mission and even after all the crap that Sai pulled on Danzo's behalf, nothing was done against him. Danzo was perfectly in position to take control after hiding in the bunker during the Pain Invasion. This should not be allowed to happen. But after it did happen, Tsunade should be allowed to redeem herself. Not wake up only after the threat is gone and dealt with. Danzo was presented as a problem for Tsunade to deal with. Instead Kishimoto had someone else overcame Danzo and conveniently tuck away Tsunade until Sasuke had done just that.



> So what? You're complaining he took a long time, I agree with that, but it doesn't take that fact that he got there. While Sakura never got there with Naruto, because she was never interested.



And if Naruto didn't get there with Hinata in the end we could just as easily it was because he wasn't interested. Till the very end there was never a reason it needed to be otherwise. 



> Sasuke considered Sakura a dear person to him and was ready to die for her sake, was jealous when she looked at another guy and smiled at him instead, and was grateful to her feelings (the least that scene can be taken as). This before part 2 even started. So your evaluation of Sasuke's feelings for Sakura is quite flawed.



I don't take the scene as such and even if it did, so what? That in NO WAY aquates to Sasuke being in romantic love with Sakura all along and wanting to spend the rest of his life with her.


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## db84x (Mar 21, 2015)

Danzio said:


> What a horrible, horrible thread:
> 
> 
> - Calls Naruto "the worst piece of fiction ", yet is proudly reading garbage like Fairy Tail.
> ...



Thumbs up, Naruto maybe not perfect but it not piece of garbage.


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## Pirao (Mar 21, 2015)

Your thread lost all credibility when you said Fairy Tail is better than Naruto


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## Turrin (Mar 21, 2015)

ch1p said:


> The story presented Naruto's power as the result of team work, even at the very end, so you can't complain about it then as you did in OP.
> .


Where did I ever complain about Team-Work?



> Ashura was also persented as someone who got his power because of hard work and cooperation.


No, it was stated that Ashura worked hard to release the powers he was born with. Yes there is an element of hard-work there, but the primary reason Ashura [and by extension Naruto] can stand at the top is due to powers they were born into or given by other people/entities. This is inherently different than them accomplishing everything due to hard-work.



> Naruto only said to change his destiny if people didn't like it. He certainly liked being the chosen one and having powerups pulled out of his ass.


Literally, nowhere do I question that whether Naruto likes or dislikes being the destined child



> Naruto never stated that it was one of his goals to get Sakura to like him. Kishi was very careful not to include that in his chapter 4 goals. And etc etc.[


If you have a crush on a girl/guy, it is obviously a goal to get that girl/guy to reciprocate those feelings. Was it one of Naruto's main goals, that ranks up there with being Hokage, of course not, but to say he didn't want the girl he was crushing on to reciprocate his feelings, is absolute nonsense.



> If 'how the story presents it' is your definition of what gets done and what doesn't, then you have no case in the OP as the examples above demonstrate so well.


Everything I spoke about in the opening has to do with how the story presets the main character. He was initially presented as someone who wasn't naturally gifted, but still was able to step up through hard-work and determination. However as the story progressed, that changed into him being able to step up specifically because he was naturally gifted. Gifted by heritage, destiny, the powers of other individuals, or the plot bending to grant him additional powers. That all has to do with how the story presented Naruto's arc. 

On the other hand the story did not at all present Neji as having to save Hinata/Naruto due to destiny.  No hyuuga main family sage appeared in that moment and gave Neji a power up because he was destined to protect Hinata with his life. No prophetic Sage animal told Neji that he'd seen into his future and it was his destiny to sacrifice himself for Hinata. At no point was it revealed that Neji is the reincarnation of some valiant hyuuga that always gives his life for the main family. 



> A critique is a careful judgement, not your opinion. Use better words next time.


Critique, "a detailed analysis and assessment of something"

That's exactly what I did. However I, nor you, nor anything in this reality has the ability to be completely objective. So there is no such thing as critique that does not have some level of subjectivity. 



> Considering you said that OP is actually your opinion and not a critique, this reaks of contradictions. You're excusing liking Temari with your opinion, not a proper judgement of her case.


There both opinions. However they are opinions about different things. One is an opinion about how well written the narrative was and the other is an opinion about how much i like a specific character. Both are my opinions, but I hold different standards for each.

There is no contradiction in that. The only reason you see a contradiction is because your going off the fallacious idea that a critique is somehow not the writers opinion and that the only true critiques are somehow completely objective, which isn't even possible.



> Temari is irrelevant to the plot, and that's the truth, not an opinion.


Actually that's false. Temari saved Shikkamaru's life in the rescue Sasuke arc, w/o Shikkamaru around the plot changes drastically. So no she is not irrelevant to the plot, she is just less centric to the plot than other characters.



> She's not 'most desirable' anything by the fandom. .


I could carless about the fandom. I was talking strictly about my opinion when responding to Munboy. Imo Temari is the most desirable girl of her generation. This isn't something debatable within the confines of which female is more popular in pairing fandoms, as I was voicing just my opinion, not saying that pairing fans desire Temari more.


----------



## MS81 (Mar 21, 2015)

I really love Kakashi and Gai, although I wish Kakashi and Gai could have more combination tatics with one another. like the jutsu in Storm Revolution.


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Mar 21, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Your thread lost all credibility when you said Fairy Tail is better than Naruto


I hear so many bad things about Fairy Tail. What exactly is Fairy Tail about?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 21, 2015)

CyberianGinseng said:


> I hear so many bad things about Fairy Tail. What exactly is Fairy Tail about?



Titties and fanservice.


----------



## babaGAReeb (Mar 21, 2015)

whats even worse is that he thinks even regular ol hentai is better than nardo


----------



## Turrin (Mar 21, 2015)

CyberianGinseng said:


> I hear so many bad things about Fairy Tail. What exactly is Fairy Tail about?


Fairy Tail is like those old 90s cartoons that were on channels like jetx. It has a really superficial and childish plot, where everything is basically resolved by the power of friendship. So basically think about a story set up like that, but about wizards and with more mature fan-service, and you'll have a good sense of what Fairy-Tale is like. 

I read it because it's really light reading, usually takes less than a minute to get through a chapter, when I'm bored.


----------



## Milliardo (Mar 21, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Your thread lost all credibility when you said Fairy Tail is better than Naruto



for some that might actually be true though.


----------



## Alkaid (Mar 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Fairy Tale is mature fan-service



Lol. Mature fan-service is an art, go read Prison High School or Nana to Kaoru. Every every girl having double G's and being dressed in skimpy clothing is not mature fan service, it's unimaginative. You really do have shit taste.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 21, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> Lol. Mature fan-service is an art, go read Prison High School or Nana to Kaoru. Every every girl having double G's and being dressed in skimpy clothing is not mature fan service, it's unimaginative. You really do have shit taste.


Lol, what a horrible attempt at trolling; not even quoting what I actually said.


----------



## Alkaid (Mar 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Lol, what a horrible attempt at trolling; not even quoting what I actually said.



I was just summing it up.



Turrin said:


> about wizards and with more mature fan-service, and you'll have a good sense of what Fairy-Tale is like.



You said it's about wizards and with more mature fan-service, so you must think Fairy Tale has _mature_ fan service. Sameface stacked girls sure is a cut above the rest of the fan service we see nowadays. I'm not surprised you consider Naruto the worst piece of fiction you've ever read when you're reading such top notch material


----------



## Trebla Sless enitsraw (Mar 21, 2015)

Hmm. Ive too read TONS  of manga and i pride myself on having read in the thousands of books since childhood ( im 25), but even though ive read stuff such as fullmetal, stuff with thick plots all around, naruto to me, has something that SHINES THROUGH, a feel, a message that even shit like the commonly read one piece and bleach could NEVER come close to conveying!!

Naruto is a manga about hope, and has taught me many lessons that touch real world problems. The chain of hatred is real, and persist in our world today. This is why the middle east hates America  currently. WE invaded their space without true precedent,  with lies and decite, ( much like the sand invaded konoha, ect.), based on false flag events. 9-11 ( i dont believe for one fuckin SECOND a rouge group of arabs in two different cities hijacked fucking JETLINERS, and just flew them on COURSE like seasoned pilots, following computer coordinates and maps, crashed into those buildings. It was an inside job ) has caused a chain of hatred in which middle easterners hate us for invading their country.

Naruto shows us through cooperation, we can ALL come together.

It also touches heavily on forgiveness.  Obito KNEW he was wrong the whole time, yet proceded to ravage the land, and ravage the ninja alliance. Yet through all that, kakashi and naruto forgave him. Seen that he TRULY wanted the right thing, a PEACEFUL world.

Naruto touches heavily on the soul, and the fact that NO ONE IS BORN EVIL, they are a product of their enviroment. I appreciated that alot. It shows intelligence in knowing human nature. Unlike most villains who are just EVIL ( even doffla from one piece is just inherantly evil, even though he as well is a product of his enviroment. He was born evil. So far. 

I believe that we on this forum through hundreds of hours of disscussion and dissection of the manga may have learned alot. I know i have and applied it to real life many a time.

Naruto is truly a gem and special among shonen in my humble opinion. It carries a heart many a story cant even begin to touch.  Sorry so long.


----------



## Narutossss (Mar 22, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Your thread lost all credibility when you said Fairy Tail is better than Naruto



pirao bro it's turrin, he lost all credibility when he made the thread. I think he's still rustled over end game pairing.


----------



## Overhaul (Mar 22, 2015)

Platinax.More like Plantinaxxx.











@Ontopic
Nardo to me was like a ride at an amusement park. Sometimes it went fast,sometimes it went slow. And often it went up and down and 'round and 'round. Unfortunately after Madara became a Jin and the whole Kaguya reveal it went str8 to hell fast. 

No regrets on riding tho unlike some ppl.


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 22, 2015)

Trebla Sless enitsraw said:


> Hmm. Ive too read TONS  of manga and i pride myself on having read in the thousands of books since childhood ( im 25), but even though ive read stuff such as fullmetal, stuff with thick plots all around, naruto to me, has something that SHINES THROUGH, a feel, a message that even shit like the commonly read one piece and bleach could NEVER come close to conveying!!
> 
> Naruto is a manga about hope, and has taught me many lessons that touch real world problems. The chain of hatred is real, and persist in our world today. This is why the middle east hates America  currently. WE invaded their space without true precedent,  with lies and decite, ( much like the sand invaded konoha, ect.), based on false flag events. 9-11 ( i dont believe for one fuckin SECOND a rouge group of arabs in two different cities hijacked fucking JETLINERS, and just flew them on COURSE like seasoned pilots, following computer coordinates and maps, crashed into those buildings. It was an inside job ) has caused a chain of hatred in which middle easterners hate us for invading their country.
> 
> ...


A
Smart post but I hope you don't consider the picture in your signature a good drawing


----------



## thechickensage (Mar 22, 2015)

To me this thread should be read as:
"Naruto is the piece of fiction that made me feel the saddest when i think about what it tried to be, what it had the potential to be, and what it ended up being"

so, to you Fairy Tail haters...fairy tail is in a different tier of fiction because of how simple and fanservicy and dumb it is

it didnt HURT TURRN the most out of all fiction he's read because it didnt even come close to rising high enough


----------



## Epyon (Mar 23, 2015)

Trebla Sless enitsraw said:


> Hmm. Ive too read TONS  of manga and i pride myself on having read in the thousands of books since childhood ( im 25), but even though ive read stuff such as fullmetal, stuff with thick plots all around, naruto to me, has something that SHINES THROUGH, a feel, a message that even shit like the commonly read one piece and bleach could NEVER come close to conveying!!
> 
> Naruto is a manga about hope, and has taught me many lessons that touch real world problems. The chain of hatred is real, and persist in our world today. This is why the middle east hates America  currently. WE invaded their space without true precedent,  with lies and decite, ( much like the sand invaded konoha, ect.), based on false flag events. 9-11 ( i dont believe for one fuckin SECOND a rouge group of arabs in two different cities hijacked fucking JETLINERS, and just flew them on COURSE like seasoned pilots, following computer coordinates and maps, crashed into those buildings. It was an inside job ) has caused a chain of hatred in which middle easterners hate us for invading their country.
> 
> ...



The Juubi was born evil.


----------



## The All Unknowing (Mar 23, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> To me this thread should be read as:
> "Naruto is the piece of fiction that made me feel the saddest when i think about what it tried to be, what it had the potential to be, and what it ended up being"
> 
> so, to you Fairy Tail haters...fairy tail is in a different tier of fiction because of how simple and fanservicy and dumb it is
> ...



While I know there are plenty that dont, I personally enjoy it. Fairy Tail Zero is an interesting prequel for it too. Noting that Fairy Tail began with magic taught by Zeref coincidentally enough


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## thebrightestshadow (Mar 23, 2015)

Epyon said:


> The Juubi was born evil.



It was the physical manifestation of man's hatred and malice and selfishness


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 23, 2015)

Juubi was kaguya fused up with the shinju in an attempt to get her chakra back.


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## Epyon (Mar 23, 2015)

thebrightestshadow said:


> It was the physical manifestation of man's hatred and malice and selfishness



It was wrong to think of the Kyuubi as just a manifestation of hatred and force of nature that needs to be destroyed. Why is it okay for the Juubi to be exactly those things solely so the monster we know gets to stick around?


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Mar 23, 2015)

Seeing as the Shinju rose up from the ground soaked with the blood of countless wars, I'd say a manifestation of  man's hatred ain't too far off.


----------



## ShadowFox88 (Mar 24, 2015)

Jesus, how many variations of "This manga sucked!" have we had.


----------



## Escargon (Mar 24, 2015)

This manga gave me a really bitter taste after the Sasuke VS Naruto fight only lasting for so few chapters and the ending being way too quickly.

It completely sucks. This manga is bad. What a disaster. Atleast Kishi could have stretched the ending but he knows that this manga is a fucking piece of sht:

Wasting so many chapters on useless Kaguya and then ending it like this, please just quit, Kishi, after your Buroto BS. 

Unless you can bring me a Rock Lee/Gai manga. Then, i will read again


----------



## Plague (Mar 24, 2015)

I think the man doesn't know how to write women at all. 

But then, Obito was pretty terrible too, and he's not a woman lol. 

Is it really that hard to write someone, getting over somebody else?


----------



## thebrightestshadow (Mar 24, 2015)

Plague said:


> I think the man doesn't know how to write women at all.
> 
> But then, Obito was pretty terrible too, and he's not a woman lol.
> 
> Is it really that hard to write someone, getting over somebody else?



Tobirama explained Uchiha have a tendency to go nuts after traumatic events and thus must be wiped out.  Obito was a victim of his cursed blood so I wouldn't say he's badly written.  He did get over it though, it took Naruto making him realize what he truly valued back when he was innocent.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

whats the best manga u ever read?
i am curious 
i think for the most part why naruto is a let down is 
1) too many characters
2) part 1 concepts were dropped like hot cake

hardwork didnt outdo genius, it was genetic pool which trumped all. which frankly speaking sucked.


----------



## thebrightestshadow (Mar 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> whats the best manga u ever read?
> i am curious
> i think for the most part why naruto is a let down is
> 1) too many characters
> ...



hard work was mostly associated with Rock Lee, genetic pools gifting people with infinite potential has always been part of Naruto, just takes hard work to discover that potential.  Part 2 focused on a plethora of other themes besides that one, and many of those themes were infinitely more interesting and less hokey.


----------



## Bender (Mar 24, 2015)

Turrin said:
			
		

> Fairy Tale is mature fan-service



[YOUTUBE]FopyRHHlt3M[/YOUTUBE]

How about explaining how it is "mature" sir.


----------



## Escargon (Mar 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> whats the best manga u ever read?
> i am curious
> i think for the most part why naruto is a let down is
> 1) too many characters
> ...



Thats one hard question. Most mangas ive read (read it again: what I HAVE read) are bad and good, imo. For example Dragonball.

I liked Dragonball until Vegeta left the earth then it went downhills. My biggest complains is the fucking powerlevels. Goku had to really fight his ass to even reach like a few thousand of powerlevel. Then, after Vegeta, suddenly he gets like 50k, 100k. 500k, 1 mill, 10 mill. The power levels is one part that just makes me hate the rest of the series. 

Thats just one example of a manga ive read. Some parts are good for me. Same with Naruto. It started out good and went downhills.


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## scerpers (Mar 24, 2015)

you could have just posted the /a/ gateway anime copypasta


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2015)

Bender said:


> How about explaining how it is "mature" sir.


Do I have to explain how Fairy-Tale has more mature fan service than Saturday morning cartoons like Static Shock? Or is it more that I have to explain to you how to read a whole sentence, rather than half of it, and understand that I was comparing it to sat morning cartoons I saw as a kid? Or do I just have to explain to you how to troll better?

I'm really not sure which, so please let me know.



Icegaze said:


> whats the best manga u ever read?


Haven't really sat down to think about it that much, but off the top of my head Monster is pretty high up there, as one that was solid from start to finish. For an on going one i'd go with Berserk, despite Muira's maddening breaks.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2015)

lol lots of people quote me on this thread yet show no love to my other thread on the library please take a look 

i dont think there is any best manga per say but death note, and darker than black seemed more intriuging 

true naruto always had the whole good gene pool equal relevant. bad one equal irrelevant

mostly an excess amount of characters is what made naruto tough to like. way too many characters. Ao was introduced, did nothing then died. why even give such a person a name and some half ass story line


----------



## Black Apple (Mar 25, 2015)

The worst fiction ever? Not even close.

Its pacing was absolute shit at the beginning of part 2 and the message of underdog >  genius through hardwork got thrown out. After the Pain arc, it largely went downhill (Sasuke's mood-flips, Naruto hyperventilating, not responding to Hinata's confession, Sakura failing to kill Sasuke, the child of destiny stuff, etc...). That doesn't ruin the entire series though. There are some *cough*FT*cough* that are shit from the start. Naruto's asspulls didn't really begin until after Naruto beat Nagato.

That doesn't qualify it for worst, just one with wasted potential. Kishi should have stayed away from all that hatred tripe.

:


----------



## PikaCheeka (Mar 25, 2015)

This is hilarious.

You were one of the last fools defending Kishimoto's writing. Looks like the scales finally fell from your eyes.

Guess all bets are off when you OTP doesn't happen, eh?


----------



## Alkaid (Mar 25, 2015)

PikaCheeka said:


> This is hilarious.
> 
> You were one of the last fools defending Kishimoto's writing. Looks like the scales finally fell from your eyes.
> 
> Guess all bets are off when you OTP doesn't happen, eh?



Exposed


----------



## Bender (Mar 26, 2015)

PikaCheeka said:


> This is hilarious.
> 
> You were one of the last fools defending Kishimoto's writing. Looks like the scales finally fell from your eyes.
> 
> Guess all bets are off when you OTP doesn't happen, eh?



Turrin actually ror NaruHina but is giving most BS defense of NaruSaku and suggested she equivalent to his goal of becoming Hokage.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Mar 27, 2015)

Bender said:


> Turrin actually ror NaruHina but is giving most BS defense of NaruSaku and suggested she equivalent to his goal of becoming Hokage.



Yea he's basically like everyone else who defended every bit of shit writing that came our way and only cried foul when dear NaruSaku didn't happen. It was hilarious to see how many people who ate up the Child of Destiny, the aliens, and all that other garbage, suddenly turn around and say Naruto was all bad writing when chapter 700 happened and their pairing didn't. 

Hilarious, and very satisfying.


----------



## Mintaka (Mar 27, 2015)

Worst peice of fiction I have seen?  No.

A manga that feels worse than it might otherwise be, because it fell so far in quality?  Yes.

Especially since it did so at least twice.  Once from part 1 to 2, and again during the pain arc when it built itself back up only to drop the ball at the end and get even shittier than it was within the space of 1.5 chapters.  It's rare that I see a fanbase that was as big as this suddenly lose almost half it's members in a day or so.


----------



## Overhaul (Mar 27, 2015)

Just imagine how much bigger the shitstorm would have been if sasusaku and naruhina didn't becum canonz.

Instead of losing a quarter of the fandom we'd lose half of the fandom.


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 27, 2015)

Revy said:


> Just imagine how much bigger the shitstorm would have been if sasusaku and naruhina didn't becum canonz.
> 
> Instead of losing a quarter of the fandom we'd lose half of the fandom.



Welllll, IF SasuHina and NaruKarin happened then the forums would drown in internet blood for sure.


----------



## SoulFire (Mar 27, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Do I have to explain how Fairy-Tale has more mature fan service than Saturday morning cartoons like Static Shock? Or is it more that I have to explain to you how to read a whole sentence, rather than half of it, and understand that I was comparing it to sat morning cartoons I saw as a kid? Or do I just have to explain to you how to troll better?



Wait--Static Shock and Sat morning toons had fan service?! Western cartoons don't generally swing that way.

Just because a story has spreadeagled womens' crotches on every other page and ladies soaping one another in a bath in between does not make it more mature. That was the reason that I dropped FT--got really sick of it.  I'm glad that Kishi's modesty spared us from much of that sort of thing in Naruto.


----------



## Bender (Mar 27, 2015)

Aahahhahaha Static Shock has fan service.  Watched the series and yeah no. Aint have an iota of girls flaunting they fun bags.


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 27, 2015)

Hawk girl appeared in it.


----------



## Bender (Mar 27, 2015)

^

That bitch got nothing going on. I like Wondy girls panties more than Hawkgirl midriff.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 27, 2015)

SoulFire! said:


> Wait--Static Shock and Sat morning toons had fan service?! Western cartoons don't generally swing that way.
> .


I'm not sure if it did or didn't. What I was saying was that FT has more mature fanservice than these cartoons, whether that be because they had none or less, doesn't effect my description.



> Just because a story has spreadeagled womens' crotches on every other page and ladies soaping one another in a bath in between does not make it more mature. That was the reason that I dropped FT--got really sick of it.  I'm glad that Kishi's modesty spared us from much of that sort of thing in Naruto


I'm not saying it's a mature story, but that it has more mature fanservice than American Sat-Morning cartoons that I grew up watching.

Like we had Pokemon, Digimon, Mushrambo, and shit, which have similar tone as fairy-tale, but don't have the level of fan-service FT does.



PikaCheeka said:


> Yea he's basically like everyone else who defended every bit of shit writing that came our way and only cried foul when dear NaruSaku didn't happen. It was hilarious to see how many people who ate up the Child of Destiny, the aliens, and all that other garbage, suddenly turn around and say Naruto was all bad writing when chapter 700 happened and their pairing didn't.
> 
> Hilarious, and very satisfying.


What lol, I was critical of the series well before then:



etc...

Besides that I have an entire  Channel's worth of Youtube videos which basically consist of me making fun of all the terrible writing in each chapter:


So I literally have proof that your making that shit up.

Did I defend some parts of it, sure, but I was critical throughout. The issue you really have with me is that I thought Kaguya wasn't absolutely god aweful compared to other issues with the plot, and you still have your jimmies rustled about her taking Madara's spot as FV.


----------



## Bender (Mar 27, 2015)

@Turrin

Hardly. Pikacheeka is as steamed about the terrible foreshadowing of Kaguya not occurring sooner as I am. Madara was excellently hinted while Kaguya was mentioned 14- chapters ago and is final villain. She had good abilities but she herself was random as fuck.


----------



## SoulFire (Mar 27, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I'm not sure if it did or didn't. What I was saying was that FT has more mature fanservice than these cartoons, whether that be because they had none or less, doesn't effect my description.
> 
> 
> I'm not saying it's a mature story, but that it has more mature fanservice than American Sat-Morning cartoons that I grew up watching.
> ...


Fan service in the manner of what we see in FT simply does not exist in western cartoons and even in comics is more subdued, I think (though I haven't picked up a main stream comic in many years). Cultural differences. Japan has less of a problem with what I perceive as kiddie porn (since many of these manga/anime are aimed at younger kids).

By mature I take it you mean exploitative, as in peeks at panties, all out crotch shots, big bouncing boobs and the like (as in mature viewer only). I see that as the opposite of mature, myself and just a set up for young boys to get their rocks off. I actually find Kishi's way of handling fan service as far more mature because he never really promoted it. He could have had Naruko popping up every few chapters or exploited the bountiful bosoms of Tsunade and Hinata, but he chose not to.


----------



## Bender (Mar 27, 2015)

Kishi's reverse sexy no jutsu of Konohamaru's was censored in Viz manga and was cut from anime broadcast. Yeah....the fan service is far more mature.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 27, 2015)

SoulFire! said:


> Fan service in the manner of what we see in FT simply does not exist in western cartoons and even in comics is more subdued, I think (though I haven't picked up a main stream comic in many years). Cultural differences. Japan has less of a problem with what I perceive as kiddie porn (since many of these manga/anime are aimed at younger kids).
> 
> By mature I take it you mean exploitative, as in peeks at panties, all out crotch shots, big bouncing boobs and the like (as in mature viewer only). I see that as the opposite of mature, myself and just a set up for _*young boys*_ to get their rocks off. I actually find Kishi's way of handling fan service as far more mature because he never really promoted it. He could have had Naruko popping up every few chapters or exploited the bountiful bosoms of Tsunade and Hinata, but he chose not to.


That's the key difference here. I see sat morning cartoons as things marketed towards 5-9 year olds first and foremost. So when I say mature, I mean more mature than what those viewers would be used to (at least back in my day). I agree with you that it's there for Teenage Boys and Girls , and is clearly not mature in an adult sense. 



Bender said:


> @Turrin
> 
> Hardly. Pikacheeka is as steamed about the terrible foreshadowing of Kaguya not occurring sooner as I am. Madara was excellently hinted while Kaguya was mentioned 14- chapters ago and is final villain. She had good abilities but she herself was random as fuck.


Zetsu was foreshadowed for the first time, around the same time as Madara; but actually in a more direct way as Zetsu was actually there at the VOTE scheming while Madara was just a set piece, for the back drop of Sasuke and Naruto. Zetsu's mystery is again foreshadowed during the Suna-Arc, while Madara is not referenced until the end of Uchiha-Brothers Arc again, and only so far as again a parallel to Sasuke. It's not until the Uchiha brothers arc that Madara is really foreshadowed as a potential threat in the present world. Granted that's before Kaguya, but I don't consider Kaguya as the major villain, but she imo is just Zetsu's "Dragon"; I.E. the physical threat and nothing more. Could all the weird Hagoromo mythology and powers have been built up better, course they could off, it was a disaster, but Rinnegan, Rikudo, etc... were foreshadowed before EMS and Madara's own cray powers.

So the foreshadowing argument doesn't fly with me. Both characters had poor foreshadowing, but Zetsu was more of a present threat throughout the manga than Madara was.

In terms of randomness, Madara's entire inclusion in the plot is random as fuck. Madara's entire character archetype in the story was basically to be a watered down and quite franky piss poor version of Orochimaru, that only served to highlight how redundant Kishi's villain designs had become. His entire existence only convoluted the villain hierarchy more and all of his actions in the war and verse in general could & quite frankly should have been dedicated to other villains like Obito, Sasuke, Zetsu, or Orochimaru.

Madara is one of the worst written characters in the manga, that only further fucked the plot over, so don't get me started on him.


----------



## Bender (Mar 27, 2015)

> Zetsu was foreshadowed for the first time, around the same time as Madara; but actually in a more direct way as Zetsu was actually there at the VOTE scheming while Madara was just a set piece, for the back drop of Sasuke and Naruto. Zetsu's mystery is again foreshadowed during the Suna-Arc, while Madara is not referenced until the end of Uchiha-Brothers Arc again, and only so far as again a parallel to Sasuke. It's not until the Uchiha brothers arc that Madara is really foreshadowed as a potential threat in the present world. Granted that's before Kaguya, but I don't consider Kaguya as the major villain, but she imo is just Zetsu's "Dragon"; I.E. the physical threat and nothing more. Could all the weird Hagoromo mythology and powers have been built up better, course they could off, it was a disaster, but Rinnegan, Rikudo, etc... were foreshadowed before EMS and Madara's own cray powers.




First...if you want to prove a point your provide evidence to substantiate your argument. Secondly, Zetsu we had no way of knowing wasn't aligned with Kaguya and not Obito,Madara until he showed his true colors. You're BSing so hard it aint event funny. BZ was in charge of strategizing for Kaguya but she was still in charge. None of his dialogue suggested he had more control than his "mother".

The Rikudo mythology was bound to happen, it just that the majority of it was mashed in poorly jn part 2. You remind me of most the people that dickride part 1 and think we would be better off not knowing jack shit about the biijuu Kurama and Shukaku. There would be so many hanging plot threads without Rikudo origin story.



> So the foreshadowing argument doesn't fly with me. Both characters had poor foreshadowing, but Zetsu was more of a present threat throughout the manga than Madara was.





> In terms of randomness, Madara's entire inclusion in the plot is random as fuck. Madara's entire character archetype in the story was basically to be a watered down and quite franky piss poor version of Orochimaru, that only served to highlight how redundant Kishi's villain designs had become. His entire existence only convoluted the villain hierarchy more and all of his actions in the war and verse in general could & quite frankly should have been dedicated to other villains like Obito, Sasuke, Zetsu, or Orochimaru.



Sigh... Again... Showing more proof of too much dickriding part 1 plot and starter villains. Orochimaru has zero ties to the prologue spotlight figure Kyuubi and Naruto along with the foundation of the ninja world. 

Orochimaru is just another sad excuse apprentice that lost his shit. There is nothing about him that needs to be made main villain.




> *Madara is one of the worst written characters in the manga, that only further fucked the plot over, so don't get me started on him*



And this sir is one of the worst written bits of your thread. 

Madara was one of the characters that moved this story and his name being dropped by Marara does the plot really go in motion.

Shit, there's a reason why SP had Naruto Shippuden had first episode show the Sasuke meeting Kyuubi and him dropping Madara name before the intro.


----------



## Divinstrosity (Mar 27, 2015)

I returned to NF after an extended break, only to find myself agreeing with Turrin. Interesting.

I will say that, Naruto was a manga I followed because I saw the potential in what it could become if the author ever decided to write the story to its full potential.

By the war-arc, I knew it was too late, and there was no potential left, as the manga was almost over. 

I enjoyed part 1. I'd give part 1 a 9. I'd give part 2 a 4. I never enjoyed part 2, but for a few small arcs( e.g. Obito attacking the village). 

As for the potential, I now projected my own desires and standards onto the story, and was thoroughly disappointed when he failed to measure up. 

This manga could have been BEYOND epic. It ended up falling flat.


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 27, 2015)

> Madara is one of the worst written characters in the manga, that only further fucked the plot over, so don't get me started on him



I wouldn't say he is the worst written character because there are more character worst than him, But he did fuck over the original plot.... 

He basically was made to connect Nardo and Sauce non-existent friendship and the child of destiny shit.



> This manga could have been BEYOND epic. It ended up falling flat.



Also this, if kishi fleshed things out Naruto could have probably reach its potential


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## Bender (Mar 27, 2015)

@Divinistrosity

Part 1 had to be epic and be the strong attention grabber for audiences. However, the story still incomplete friend and needed to know origin behind instrumental moments like the slaughter of the Uchiha. For one we didnt hear Hiruzen input on it so there was more to it.

We have no idea why the Kyuubi attacked Konoha. Part 2  this was because of Tobi/Obito. What was the name of shinobi like Naruto and Gaaa who had bijuu attached to them? Did other nations do this to their shinobi?

Why is Byakugan considered to be derived from Sharingan and ultimate dojutsu? 

Simply thinking shit would be good if Orochimaru continued to be antagonist like he was in part is a neanderthal-view and would make this Harry Potter with ninjas.



shade0180 said:


> I wouldn't say he is the worst written character because there are more character worst than him, But he did fuck over the original plot....



Elaborate how Madara fucked over original plot.



> He basically was made to connect Nardo and Sauce non-existent friendship and the child of destiny shit.



Wrong...

Madara was meant to explain the importance of what lead to downfall of Uchiha clan. That and gave more insight into the clan that beefed with them them; the Senju clan. All of this is missing from part 1.


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## shade0180 (Mar 27, 2015)

> Madara was meant to explain the importance of what lead to downfall of Uchiha clan.



This is Itachi's job...



> That and gave more insight into the clan that beefed with them them; the Senju clan. All of this is missing from part 1.



as for this Senju Tsunade could have done this...

so truth be told there's no point for madara except to be a fated Rival of Hashirama and to connect sauce and Nardo to the child of destiny role.

Which basically shitted on the lesson during the Neji match in the chuunin exam.


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## Bender (Mar 27, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> This is Itachi's job...



Limiting, Itachi to being responsible for uchiha massacre and nothing else is a pretty shoddy and overly-hasty way to conclude his contribution to the plot.





> as for this Senju Tsunade could have done this...



Tsunade barely knew anything about anyone other than grandfather and only up to Naruto 's parentage. 

Speaking of, just leaving Naruto as an orphan as that would be better and make him more inspiring does not do. Thats Rock Lee. Bobbed hair fucker who only knows Taijutsu yet is impressive enough to whup both Naruto and Sasuke.



> so truth be told there's no point for madara except to be a fated Rival of Hashirama and to connect sauce and Nardo to the child of destiny role.



Uhhh no. Madara was the reason that the Uchiha eventually were looked at with suspicion by Konoha and execute a coup de tat.



> Which basically shitted on the lesson during the Neji match in the chuunin exam.



Sigh....the lesson which Naruto beatdown on Neji was to stop bitching about destiny. The child of prophecy shit was not written in stone and was given up on two different occasions. There was Nagato falling to dark side then there was Minato dying. 

And even then the whole prophecy shit did not account Kaguya. It was team 7 as a whole that saved the world. Not just Naruto.


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## MS81 (Mar 27, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Welllll, IF SasuHina and NaruKarin happened then the forums would drown in internet blood for sure.



I would have loved SasuKarin,SasuHina, pr NaruKarin or NaruHina!!!


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## Alita (Mar 27, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> for some that might actually be true though.


And those people have horrible taste in fiction. Fairy tail is *objectively* worse than naruto. Every bad point you can point out about naruto or think it does bad fairy tail does significantly worse.


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## Turrin (Mar 27, 2015)

Bender said:


> First...if you want to prove a point your provide evidence to substantiate your argument. Secondly, Zetsu we had no way of knowing wasn't aligned with Kaguya and not Obito,Madara until he showed his true colors. You're BSing so hard it aint event funny. BZ was in charge of strategizing for Kaguya but she was still in charge. None of his dialogue suggested he had more control than his "mother".


No you just fail to comprehend my point. Zetsu whether he was being set up as FV or not was a direct threat in the current time-line, while Madara was only a prop or parallel for most of the series.



> The Rikudo mythology was bound to happen, it just that the majority of it was mashed in poorly jn part 2. You remind me of most the people that dickride part 1 and think we would be better off not knowing jack shit about the biijuu Kurama and Shukaku. There would be so many hanging plot threads without Rikudo origin story.


The Rikudo mythology was a retecon, that's why back in Part I Shukaku is the spirit of a corrupted sand priest. Kishi changed the origin of the Bijuu and came up with the Rikudo stuff at some point in part II.



> Sigh... Again... Showing more proof of too much dickriding part 1 plot and starter villains. .


Lol, it's more like your dickriding Madara. 



> Orochimaru has zero ties to the prologue spotlight figure Kyuubi and Naruto along with the foundation of the ninja world


The comparison between Orochimaru and Madara I was making, literally has nothing to do with this. I was saying Madara is a clone of Orochimaru, in terms of the overarching role he serve in the plot, to parallel Naruto and Sasuke relationship, via his relationship with Hashirama; but we already had that from Orochimaru.



> Orochimaru is just another sad excuse apprentice that lost his shit. There is nothing about him that needs to be made main villain.


And Madara is a sad excuse for Orochimaru 



> Madara was one of the characters that moved this story and his name being dropped by Marara does the plot really go in motion.


Madara moved the story in the same way BZ moved the story, I.E. in the last moment of the manga Kishi revealing how he manipulated people to do his dirty work. This is absolutely no different from BZ. 

When it comes to the villains actually moving the plot, that would be Orochimaru, Obito, and Sasuke.



> hit, there's a reason why SP had Naruto Shippuden had first episode show the Sasuke meeting Kyuubi and him dropping Madara name before the intro.


Oh you, brining up the anime like it matters.


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## Narutossss (Mar 28, 2015)

lol fairy tail bringing it up is a sure fire way to not be taken seriously what so ever.


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## Kaito (Mar 28, 2015)

You make some valid points.  I lost interest a bit after Shippuden started though.


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## Alkaid (Mar 28, 2015)

By the way Bleach is absolute trash. Kubo reminds me of Oh! Great when he's getting close to the end of a series. It's like he's high when he's writing Bleach 24/7 and he himself nor his readers can actually say with any certainty they have an idea as to what the fuck is going on anymore. Anyone who read Air Gear or Tenjho Tenge
while they were both being published weekly and monthly respectively know exactly what I'm talking about.


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## migoreng (Mar 29, 2015)

Obviously its all opinion on what the worst piece of fiction is. for me the series was pretty good at points through most of it. then in the war arc, well, i haven't read or watched too many shonen series but i don't think i can think of an arc worse than that. pretty much spoiled the series for me. He must've been high or something when he wrote it cause he had no idea what was going on and neither did the readers.

rest of the series was solid apart from a few things i didn't like here and there though.


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## Bender (Mar 29, 2015)

Am using tablet so only making one post in this thread.




Turrin said:


> No you just fail to comprehend my point. Zetsu whether he was being set up as FV or not was a direct threat in the current time-line, while Madara was only a prop or parallel for most of the series.



Nothing about Zetsu is final villain material. All we know is that he manipulated a whole entourage of people to resurrect Kaguya. By the logic you're using Obito is the FV because he manipulated Nagato.




> The Rikudo mythology was a retecon, that's why back in Part I Shukaku is the spirit of a corrupted sand priest. Kishi changed the origin of the Bijuu and came up with the Rikudo stuff at some point in part II.




oh look another example of you not reading.. The whole shit with the priest was never wholly confirmed and it was paid reference to in part II that the jinchuriki was a priest. Simply leaving on note that oh Shukaku is a corrupt priest is monumentally flat and unproductively stimulating way of explaining things. Above all how the hell does the priest transform himself into a beast? 
Unless its Edo Tensei theres no such shit. Moreover, there was no confirmation.





> The comparison between Orochimaru and Madara I was making, literally has nothing to do with this. I was saying Madara is a clone of Orochimaru, in terms of the overarching role he serve in the plot, to parallel Naruto and Sasuke relationship, via his relationship with Hashirama; but we already had that from Orochimaru.




lol Madara clone of Orochimaru. 


Madara is one of the most feared ninja in the story and also a founder of Konoha, Orochimaru has no contributions to the village being built and is just another missing nin.

Its clear how toothless oro is in that he fled Akatsuki and called them dangerous. The only majlr thing Orochimaru offers to the plot on a large note is training Sasuke and bringing the Sannin comparison full circle. Other than that he's disposable to the plot.  Akatsuki offer more to the plot than him

Madara started the practice of nin leaving the village and the securing biiju for power.


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## shade0180 (Mar 29, 2015)

> oh look another example of you not reading.. The whole shit with the priest was never wholly confirmed and it was paid reference to in part II that the jinchuriki was a priest. Simply leaving on note that oh Shukaku is a corrupt priest is monumentally flat and unproductively stimulating way of explaining thing


That's why it is a retcon......

It was already established,, then later on kishi change it to fit another story to the original story..




> Above all how the hell does the priest transform himself into a beast?


Take a look at the pilot chapter and that will explain it...



> Madara is one of the most feared ninja in the story and also a founder of Konoha, Orochimaru has no contributions to the village being built and is just another missing nin.



Er Orochimaru is the most feared ninja in Part 1....

He did win a war for Konoha...

Madara just put an idea of a village with Hashi.. Hashi is the one who work for it to come true.. For the most part..... 

They both didn't contribute anything for Konoha if you look at it in perspective...


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## Bender (Apr 2, 2015)

Finally got me bitchin new computer.


And lol c'mon shade let Turrin answer this shit. He's the one doing the irrational bitching.


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## Crisheight (Apr 2, 2015)

I don't know man, I think when you go on for so long that these things are bound to happen. I didn't enjoy the war arc because it took soooooo long for the chapters to come out and end it. I was satisfied with the ending though. 

There are things I'm mad about, like Neji dying to tree branches when he has a defense move for that, and Might Guy living/not giving Rock Lee screen time to do the eight gates etc. 

Overall it was a good ride, and both the original Naruto, and Shippuden will for sure be anime staples.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 2, 2015)

Crisheight said:


> like Neji dying to tree branches when he has a defense move for that,



Neji is fodder don't feel too bad anything wood related is top shelf  in naruto


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## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Neji is fodder don't feel too bad anything wood related is top shelf  in naruto



Karin survived that same move in addition to destroying the Buddha with weak chains. But, yeah, Neji is pretty much a fodder.


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## Jeαnne (Apr 3, 2015)

well now that i have been far from the manga and the forum, i can say that i sense some disappointment for Naruto, but not for what it was, but what it could have been.

No attempt to change the system, Kaguya being completly unexplained, etc etc...

i am glad for the moments i had, but i keep wondering the moments i could have had if Kishi followed some basic storytelling logic rules that were left out because he simply didnt care anymore


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## Sixpence None The Richer (Apr 3, 2015)

Yeah it's shitty, but not the worst. Well, for me anyway.


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## Zensuki (Apr 3, 2015)

Sakura....strongest Kunoichi in the world.....all through hard work. Naruto and Sasuke would have never got to the places they are without hard work. Yes their lineage was the reason why they eventually went to become god like shinobi but without that initial hard work none of that would have even had an opportunity to take place.


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## Tragic (Apr 3, 2015)

I can go on for days about the problems I have with the manga but I think the biggest problem with this manga was Kishi refused to elaborate on anything. He's a "Tell but never show" kind of author which screwed him over. I'm not only just talking about skipped fights or jutsu or how strong a ninja was.

1. I'm talking about the "horrors of war" that Kishi kept going on about. But we had what, about 7ish chapters total out of 700 depicting these so called horrors?(Nagato flashback and Kakashi gaiden) This was one of the biggest points in his manga and he didn't bother showing "why" war was so bad and who was affected. 

2. Naruto and Sasuke's so called friendship. They apparently developed something real but Kishi did a horrible job of showing it. The only time where they fought side by side was in the Forest of Death in the Chuunin exams and vs Haku. We needed an arc or two before the Chuunin Exams and the Sasuke Retrieval arc to get a full grasp on their relationship. It felt hollow because Kishi never really showed it develop. He just told us. If this was Gon trying to bring Killua back, I would have understood because their close friendship is actually shown.

3. World Building: It essentially ties into the first two points. His anime did a better job at world building then he did. Naruto has gone to grand total of what, 2-3 villages including his own? He didn't world build at all. Don't really need to say any more. 

4. Characters: There's too many characters to list. Characters that were hyped and he didn't bother to show why they were so strong or smart or etc.

5. Jinchuuriki: Ties into point 3 and 4. He just didn't show them getting captured or their backstories. I don't think Naruto needed to meet every single one of them but a couple would have been nice. And at least mention them in your story ffs.

Elaboration wouldn't have fixed all of the problems in this manga but it would have justified a lot of the choices Kishi made.


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## Trojan (Apr 3, 2015)

I couldn't have agreed more. 
the repetitiveness of his with every single team/character/jutsu became boring so fast as well.

Not to mention the whole Kaguya and her family crap.


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2015)

Bender said:


> Nothing about Zetsu is final villain material. All we know is that he manipulated a whole entourage of people to resurrect Kaguya. By the logic you're using Obito is the FV because he manipulated Nagato.


Madara's only claim to final villain status is also showing up in the eleventh hour and Kishi revealing him to have manipulated Obito, who in turn was the one actually making the plays that moved the plot. BZ is no different in that regard, except that he was a better manipulator than Madara, so much so that he manipulated Madara himself; and BZ was a present threat throughout the series instead of just finally being resurrect in the War-Arc right before the final battle. 



> oh look another example of you not reading.. The whole shit with the priest was never wholly confirmed and it was paid reference to in part II that the jinchuriki was a priest. Simply leaving on note that oh Shukaku is a corrupt priest is monumentally flat and unproductively stimulating way of explaining things. Above all how the hell does the priest transform himself into a beast?
> Unless its Edo Tensei theres no such shit. Moreover, there was no confirmation.


What are you talking about never confirmed. It was directly stated that Shukaku was the spirit of a Sand Priest. That equals confirmation. Kishi just changed this to fit with the Juubi/Rikudo/Kaguya stuff once he decided to introduce those aspects into the plot, I.E. a retecon, which is no different than Kaguya herself. 



> Madara is one of the most feared ninja in the story and also a founder of Konoha, Orochimaru has no contributions to the village being built and is just another missing nin.


Your definition of feared is extremely narrow and only looking at thee final arc of the story. In Part I Orochimaru was absolutely feared for his strength with few other contenders. That's why Ebisu talks about how the general public opinion is that in the entire world on another Sannin could have a chance of beating Orochimaru. That's why Anko wishes the Fourth-Hokage was around to protect them from Orochimaru after Hiruzen, the Hokage and the so called greatest of the 5 Kages, doubted his ability to defeat Orochimaru. Even after Akautsuki came on the scene and we are introduced to a character like Itachi whose deemed stronger than Orochimaru, Akatsuki still fears Orochimaru for his potential if he were to get ahold of Sasuke's body. And in the Penis Arc we still have top Shinobi comparing Orochimaru to a monster and Hebi-Sasuke one of the most impressive shinobi at the time, in the Uchiha brothers arc, speaking towards the fact that he was lucky to face Orochimaru when he was weakened, and Itachi feared Orochimaru strength enough to go out of his way to remove him from Sasuke. Orochimaru was feared all the way up until his "death" at the hands of Itachi, by all factions that existed in the Naruto-world.

And beyond fear of strength or potential might, Orochimaru had another type of more potent fear going for him, the sick twisted fear of what Orochimaru might due to someone or their precious people, as Orochimaru more than any other villain and fuck load more than Madara, directly twisted people mentally, physically with experimentation, or outright taking them over. He was a man that mercilessly killed children for the sake of his science and laughed at their misfortune. And this was a direct fear throughout the story as Orochimaru was present throughout most of the manga proactively targeting the heroes.

On the other hand Madara only appears towards the end of thee last arc in the manga and his goals amount to having a bromance with Hashirama and creating a utopia. The way he went about it was and end justifies the means type mind-set and he certainly was a threat in that final battle, but he was nowhere as present of a threat or as depraved as Orochimaru.



> Its clear how toothless oro is in that he fled Akatsuki and called them dangerous. The only majlr thing Orochimaru offers to the plot on a large note is training Sasuke and bringing the Sannin comparison full circle. Other than that he's disposable to the plot. Akatsuki offer more to the plot than him


Orochimaru offers the same thing to the plot that Madara did, that he represents a NaruSasu parallel with Jiriaya from the older generation. However again unlike Madara not only was he a much more compelling villain, but he was a much present threat and force throughout the story. 

Orochimaru and Obito are the main villains that moved the plot in this manga and set the stage for the major conflicts in the series. Madara, like BZ, didn't appear or have any direct relevance until the  eleventh hour and only served to convolute the lines of villainy.

People many not like Obito, but the manga would have been infinitely better if Obito and Orochimaru remained the FV's of the series. The moment Kishi started tacking on more than those two the plot suffered and Madara is no different in that regard, in-fact he is the biggest offender because him coming back as zombie was absolute pointless and only served to take away time that could be spent on these other villains.


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## Trojan (Apr 4, 2015)

Yes, madara was pointless, and even worst he has absolutly no connection to the main characters whatsoever. He did not bring anything new to the story, and only repeated what the others have already done before him.


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## Mikon (Apr 4, 2015)

I think that Naruto and Sasuke's story pretty much ended when they faced Itachi and Pain, maybe Obito would've make a good final villian too if Kishi never introduced Madara (and made a better story for Obito, without the Rin stuff, and without him converting to Naruto's side at the end)


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2015)

Mikon said:


> I think that Naruto and Sasuke's story pretty much ended when they faced Itachi and Pain, maybe Obito would've make a good final villian too if Kishi never introduced Madara (and made a better story for Obito, without the Rin stuff, and without him converting to Naruto's side at the end)


There are quite a few characters that would have made great FV's, if the story was different. However given what Kishi wished to accomplish with the story, Orochimaru should have been the main-villain, and the moment Kishi steered away from that the story went downhill. Why? Because with all the convoluted shit aside, Kishi wanted the story to be about 1 thing and that was the rivalry and ultimate clash between Naruto and Sasuke. Orofchimaru throughout most of the story was the one instigating the clash, by tempting Sasuke into going further into the darkness for the sake of power. And Orochimaru's reasoning for doing so made sense, as he wanted Sasuke to become a more suitable vessel for him. 

Once Orochimaru was gone, Kishi needed to come up with convoluted reasons for why the villains were manipulating Sasuke and for why Sasuke vs Naruto needed to happen. Which gave birth to all of this Senju vs Uchiha, Juubi, Indara vs Ashura, nonsense. And each successive villain ended up just being less impactful as they had less and less direct personal impact on the story. 

Kishi had the perfect set up with Orochimaru. Orochimaru could summon the Edo-Hokages and Naruto could face off against them proving he's the best. Than ether Orochimaru attempts to take over Sasuke, but Sasuke takes him over. Sasuke vs Naruto. Naruto beats Sasuke, but like in the Itachi battle Orochimaru erupts forth taking over Sasuke and than Naruto seals away Orochimaru to free Sasuke.

Why Kishi decided to instead have Orochimaru replaced by the convoluted nightmare that is the long string of villains that had ridiculous goals and nonsense reasons for manipulating Sasuke, I have no fucking clue.


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## Alita (Apr 6, 2015)

Orochimaru was a great villain, but he is seriously overrated.

There are multiple other villians in this manga with better personalities/powers over him.

Just sayin.


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## Weapon (Apr 6, 2015)

Don't disagree with what you said with some points but I don't know if it's possible to pick even 5 series of merit out of the 73 you listed as reading or completed.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> Orochimaru was a great villain, but he is seriously overrated.
> 
> There are multiple other villians in this manga with better personalities/powers over him.
> 
> Just sayin.


I really don't think there are many villains that are better than Orochimaru, excluding the fact that Kishi never spent the time to address Orochimaru properly in the War-Arc, Orochimaru is one of the few solid character in the series, and considering he is a villain that is even more surprising as Kishi arguably fucked the villains up more than the heroes on average. Fuck the only major moments in the war arc that were really any good, were Orochimaru's revival and him bring back the Edo-Kages. I actually think Orochimaru coming back and bring back the Edo-Hokages is what kept me reading the manga, besides the forums, when it really turned to garbage.


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## Bender (Apr 6, 2015)

@Alita



> Orochimaru was a great villain, but he is seriously overrated.



Agreed. The dude had one measly invasion and people are all over his nut sack. 



Turrin said:


> I really don't think there are many villains that are better than Orochimaru, excluding the fact that Kishi never spent the time to address Orochimaru properly in the War-Arc, Orochimaru is one of the few solid character in the series, and considering he is a villain that is even more surprising as Kishi arguably fucked the villains up more than the heroes on average.



There's nothing else to Oro except him wanting to know all the jutsu in the world. Shit like World domination was never something he was going to touch upon.

When Sasuke disposes of him:



Respond to other post later. Got class in lil bit. Afterwards I respond..


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## SonicShane97 (Apr 6, 2015)

hmmmmm.............
Naruto is and always will be my favourite manga.
I think Turrin is looking at the manga from a creative standpoint, and he did say he was an English major so I can see why he would analyse things like motifs in great detail. To condense what the OP is trying to say, in part 1 Naruto was shit at everything and was a nobody in contrast to others that had pedigree e.g. Sasuke and Neji, but in part 2 he has pedigree.
But Naruto always had pedigree. Right from the start. He was the jinchuuriki of the most powerful tailed beast, and son of Minato and Kushina. 
Personally, I can see why this would annoy an English major because creatively it is quite bad. Kishimoto is a bad writer, I'll give you that much. He even said that he learnt how to write stories by reading books on how to write story's so it's not like it's natural to him or anything.
Instead of over-analysing the motifs of the story, why not just read it for the entertainment value like it's meant to be read? 
It's hardly like One Piece where everything that happens bears no significance at all.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2015)

Bender said:


> There's nothing else to Oro except him wanting to know all the jutsu in the world. Shit like World domination was never something he was going to touch upon.
> 
> When Sasuke disposes of him:
> 
> ...



I don't see why I good villain needs to be bent on World Domination or Destruction. Orochimaru was both a personal threat to Naruto and Sasuke, as well as their home village. He was a personal threat to Sasuke because he wanted to possess him and a personal threat to Naruto due to him manipulating Sasuke. He wanted the destruction of the leaf, so he was threat to Naruto's home.

A villain doesn't need more than that, to be good.


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## DanElectro (Apr 6, 2015)

I've seen worse.


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## Arles Celes (Apr 6, 2015)

Oro's goal was kinda unique when compared to most other major villains.

Even the immortality part and becoming the ultimate being.

Madara, Obito and Nagato did not care about being immortal at all. Hidan was a victim, Kakuzu openly acknowledged that he does not believe in immortality and even Sasori was more about the immortality of his art than his body despite turning himself into a puppet...


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## Complete_Ownage (Apr 6, 2015)

I agree with the OP

Kishi had such a killer plot going with "A dropout will beat a genius through hard work." however that slowly became a joke. Free power ups, rushed plot, DBZ type battles and etc. The manga basically went to shit after the Pain arc..

Orochimaru and or Kabuto could or should have been the final villian(so many unique ways this could have went down). Obito/Tobi was an epic fail. Madara was kinda cool I guess


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## Bender (Apr 6, 2015)

Hussain said:
			
		

> Yes, madara was pointless, and even worst he has absolutly no connection to the main characters whatsoever.



Madara is

 responsible for corrupting Obito who in turn lead Kyuubi to attack Konoha and death of Naruto's parents.

His corrupting Obito lead to internal conflict for Kakashi who idolized the words he spoke to him in Gaiden.

Obito using his name drove the world to *WAR*

Has the biggest connection with Naruto and Sasuke seeing as how Madara is reincarnation of Indra one of the sage of six paths son


In comparison Orochimaru has the smallest and most miniscule effect on a worldwide scale in Narutoverse. You're fooling yourself if you honestly believe Orochimaru has impacted plot in big way that has terrified other countries.



Deluded much?  -_-


@Turrin

Uh yeah Orochimaru does.

Shit like "I wanna be immortal and learn all the jutsu in the world just because" doesn't cut it. 

It makes Orochimaru flat and it makes him boring. The only thing you can even peg him for being "good villain" is his Hellsing-equse affable evil manner towards committing despicable acts like gloating about his immortality jutsu to Hiruzen

[YOUTUBE]DyLuQ0t-DXc[/YOUTUBE]



Turrin said:


> *Madara's only claim to final villain status is also showing up in the eleventh hour and Kishi revealing him to have manipulated Obito, who in turn was the one actually making the plays that moved the plot.*



Ummm no... Madara's claim to final villain status is the fact that he possesses an aura that even the Kyuubi... the same being who's attack on Konoha left everyone with a painful memory of incident and loathe the hell out of Naruto. Not to mention the same reason that the Uchiha were persecuted following the attack.

Madara's name was dropped 64 chapters following the timeskip and into the second arc no less (same as Orochimaru with the Chunin exam). It says plenty especially if into the second arc when Naruto goes 4-tails he's told afterward to stop using Kyuubi chakra so much and Naruto agrees to and thus begins antagonistic relationship with him.  

Considering large-scale destruction Naruto caused in his battle with Orochimaru as Kyuubi 4-tailed mode it says a lot that in chapter 309 someone has a Chakra more menacing than him.

To highlight my point on a testment to the danger Madara posed I highlighted the chapter in which Kyuubi notes Madara's danger:




And this is the same Kyuubi that laid out Oro like this to the point he's dependent on Sasuke to achieve power




And I should add that even when he does take over Sasuke's body for a small amount of time:

he gets lol pwned by Itachi



> What are you talking about never confirmed. It was directly stated that Shukaku was the spirit of a Sand Priest.



And taking Gaara's word for it is enough? We don't eve know what the hell drove the priest to become Shukaku. 



> Your definition of feared is extremely narrow and only looking at thee final arc of the story. In Part I Orochimaru was absolutely feared for his strength with few other contenders. That's why Ebisu talks about how the general public opinion is that in the entire world on another Sannin could have a chance of beating Orochimaru.




Few other contenders being Oro's subordinate's, Ibuki (who as little feats of strength). Also wowie Oro is is talked highly of for being a Sannin. The same title we don't even know how he got it. 

Ohhhh, thats right the title was given to him along with Jiraiya, and Tsunade for surviving a battle against Hanzo.  The same person who was easily wrecked by Pain. I should likewise add that Pain is an ant in comparison to Madara who gave his eyes to Nagato.

Orochimaru was only feared by Konoha.Madara's chakra is noted to be more terrible than Kyuubi. Same Kyuubi who caused this:



Additionally, Madara was fearsome enough to put fright into Ohnoki that lasted even to the present day. Ohnoki is a *KAGE*. 

A "kage", sir. The people you're talking about being frighened by Oro are fodder on a general strength ranking scale.


This is Oro's first appearance in series:



....

His first bits complaining about "hair being damaged"  gives foreshadowing of obsession with youth and immortality and does not even hint at something bigger to the plot. 

Madara's mention on possessing power stronger than the Kyuubi hints at someone truly horrifying. 

Now unless you possess evidence that suggest Oro could curbstomp bijuu here and there at any time you have nothing to go on sir.


----------



## BrokenBonds (Apr 6, 2015)

Eh, as a whole, I've read worse. _Sword Art Online manga_, _Fairy Tale_, imo _Bleach_, etc etc... And from what I've heard shit like _Boku no Pico_ & _School Days_ are like cancer. But that said the War Arc may go down as one of the SHITTIEST arcs in manga history. I think it all stems from how god awful the villains were for that arc. Tobi was ruined, Madara was just copy-paste Uchiha #482347, and I don't even know why Kaguya was introduced.

Though I barely even scratched the surface why the War Arc was ass.


----------



## Monna (Apr 6, 2015)

BrokenBonds said:


> Eh, as a whole, I've read worse. _Sword Art Online manga_, _Fairy Tale_, imo _Bleach_, etc etc... And from what I've heard shit like _Boku no Pico_ & *School Days* are like cancer.


Who told you School Days was cancer? The one guy on this forum who keeps repeating that it's the worst anime he's ever seen?

That anime was absolutely hilarious


----------



## Trojan (Apr 6, 2015)

> Madara is
> 
> responsible for corrupting Obito who in turn lead Kyuubi to attack Konoha and death of Naruto's parents.
> 
> ...



It would have made more since if he was not involved to begin with.



> Has the biggest connection with Naruto and Sasuke seeing as how Madara is reincarnation of Indra one of the sage of six paths son


Which is a pure horse shit as a plot device. Needless to say, it did not bring anything to the table. It's as pointless as saying that Sasuke's parents are so important because they are his parents. Heck, even the entire crap about how their eyes being the same was never explained or why they are different or special from the rest for God's sake. lol 

even the entire "OMG, you're like Izuna, take this jutsu to stop Madara" blah blah blah, none of that was relevant at the end of the day either. 



> In comparison Orochimaru has the smallest and most miniscule effect on a worldwide scale in Narutoverse. You're fooling yourself if you honestly believe Orochimaru has impacted plot in big way that has terrified other countries.



Oro is the main villain for the entire part 1. He was a such at the start of part 2 as well, and Kishi needed him to bring him back for the Hokages. Heck, Kabuto is his student was the main reason to why Madara was brought back to begin with, and the whole ET army mess. 
and his whole mess with Danzo as well. Had it not been for him the entire Tom and Juri wouldn't have happened (which is basically the entire manga ) 

Madara was not needed as all of what he's done, was already done before him by different characters. Why was it so important to see a different Juubi host, or a guy who uses jutsu that we have seen from Nagato, itachi, Hashirama...etc?  

worst than that, he was boring as hell. -_-


would you argue for Kaguya because she is basically the grandmother of them? And how relevant she is because the reincarnations?


----------



## Succubus (Apr 6, 2015)

BrokenBonds said:


> Eh, as a whole, I've read worse. _Sword Art Online manga_, _Fairy Tale_, imo _Bleach_, etc etc... And from what I've heard shit like _*Boku no Pico*_ & _School Days_ are like cancer. But that said the War Arc may go down as one of the SHITTIEST arcs in manga history. I think it all stems from how god awful the villains were for that arc. Tobi was ruined, Madara was just copy-paste Uchiha #482347, and I don't even know why Kaguya was introduced.
> 
> Though I barely even scratched the surface why the War Arc was ass.



firstly, Boku no Pico isn't an anime 

because people kept recommending it to others and pranking them asking them to watch it without those unsuspecting people knowing what shotacon is. People are hating it cause they never ask for it and they still got to watch it

It's an hentai made for the people who like shotacon

people's reaction:


----------



## Bender (Apr 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> It would have made more since if he was not involved to begin with.



What drivel. You have any idea how abnormally moronic this sounds? Madara drove the plot forward in more of a way than Orochimaru had ever carried it.




> Which is a pure horse shit as a plot device. Needless to say, it did not bring anything to the table. It's as pointless as saying that Sasuke's parents are so important because they are his parents. Heck, even the entire crap about how their eyes being the same was never explained or why they are different or special from the rest for God's sake. lol



[YOUTUBE]Sg-wtsocxHY[/YOUTUBE]

Ummm, on the contrary sir that whole thing was explained. You most likesly were not paying attention.

The plot involving Sasuke's parents is important because we never even got any insight on what they wanted Itachi to do. Both perspectives needed to be seen rather than just insist that "Itachi is the sole reason behind Uchiha massacre!"




> even the entire "OMG, you're like Izuna, take this jutsu to stop Madara" blah blah blah, none of that was relevant at the end of the day either.



Uh, actually Madara taking Izuna's eyes was plenty relevant as it showed how EMS was obtained.



> Oro is the main villain for the entire part 1. He was a such at the start of part 2 as well, and Kishi needed him to bring him back for the Hokages.



Oro was brought back because he's the biggest ace when it comes to using Edo Tensei jutsu. Even Tobirama noted this. As soon as Oro returned we didn't know who he meant by "the ones who know all".



> Heck, Kabuto is his student was the main reason to why Madara was brought back to begin with, and the whole ET army mess. )



Black Zetsu is the reason behind Madara being revived.






> Madara was not needed as all of what he's done, was already done before him by different characters. Why was it so important to see a different Juubi host, or a guy who uses jutsu that we have seen from Nagato, itachi, Hashirama...etc?





No one can be this delusional.

Madara was able to use the true potential of the Rinnegan. pain,Nagato was not.


Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

It's the same potential in which he was able to tame the bijuu with.

Whenever Nagato, Itachi went to get them they needed Akatsuki members in pairs.








> worst than that, he was boring as hell. -_-



For shit fucking sake stop speaking for everyone.

[YOUTUBE]JV67ocmCSw0[/YOUTUBE]

Taking on the bijuu=epicness

It's the same shit which we spanned several arcs for Akatsuki members which Mads accomplished in minutes.



> would you argue for Kaguya because she is basically the grandmother of them? And how relevant she is because the reincarnations?



The fault with Kaguya was the execution of her debut in the plot. First time we hear of her is through Kimmaro's Kaguya clan. Madara we see him via statue at Valley of the end. Needless to say she was still going to appear when we saw Juubi see Hagoromo in Naruto.


----------



## Platypus (Apr 7, 2015)

Bender said:


> What drivel. You have any idea how abnormally moronic this sounds? Madara drove the plot forward in more of a way than Orochimaru had ever carried it.


They're saying Orochimaru would've been a better villain overall if it wasn't for Kishi throwing him in the bin and replacing him with Uchiha. I assume. Didn't read every post.



> The plot involving Sasuke's parents is important because we never even got any insight on what they wanted Itachi to do. Both perspectives needed to be seen rather than just insist that "Itachi is the sole reason behind Uchiha massacre!"


We didn't get to see much of their [the parents and the clan as a whole] perspective though. 



> Uh, actually Madara taking Izuna's eyes was plenty relevant as it showed how EMS was obtained.


He's talking about Hashirama's talk with Sasuke after the Rinne Tensei, and I agree: the jutsu he gave Sasuke and the "You look like his brother Izuna" kinda went nowhere, except for proving Madara would even kill his own brother and kin to accomplish his dream. The jutsu was never mentioned again. Was Sasuke's power-up partly due to Hashirama's help? We don't know.


*Spoiler*: __ 










> Oro was brought back because he's the biggest ace when it comes to using Edo Tensei jutsu. Even Tobirama noted this. As soon as Oro returned we didn't know who he meant by "the ones who know all".



Wasn't Kabuto supposed to be better at Edo Tensei by then?

Suigetsu and Jugo could've found the scroll, taken it to Sasuke and via Izanami'd (have it end sooner) Kabuto's help revived the Hokage. No Orochimaru needed. He didn't serve any purpose to the plot after that anyway, so why bother bringing him back, having him cheerlead in the background for Sasuke and forgetting about him?


Hussain's saying Madara's role could've been filled by another character, which is true, but it applies to every character in fiction ever. Not sure what point he's trying to make here. 

The anime, not the manga, introduced me to Madara. A seiyuu like Uchida works wonders. He had some epic battles and moments, coupled with your typical shounen villain arrogance, and a backstory better than most Naruto characters. Far more entertaining than say Obito. But you can't deny how Madara's personality gets kinda boring fast. How his goals and actions seemed kinda contradictory. And how he single handedly broke the power scaling in the series by dropping two giant meteors without breaking a sweat. That was some stupid shit. Epic, but stupid nonetheless,



> The fault with Kaguya was the execution of her debut in the plot. *First time we hear of her is through Kimmaro's Kaguya clan*. Madara we see him via statue at Valley of the end. Needless to say she was still going to appear when we saw Juubi see Hagoromo in Naruto.


Lol, that foreshadowing.  As if Kishi knew she was going to be a character back then.


----------



## Sharingan6 (Apr 7, 2015)

One thing that''s always puzzled me is how strong Sakura's punches are, considering her thin frame.
She's skinnier than a ton of characters, but she punches harder than most of them.


----------



## Addy (Apr 7, 2015)

this thread shouldn't exist


----------



## Platypus (Apr 7, 2015)

Sharingan6 said:


> One thing that''s always puzzled me is how strong Sakura's punches are, considering her thin frame.
> She's skinnier than a ton of characters, but she punches harder than most of them.



​


----------



## Bender (Apr 7, 2015)

Busy with Criminal class online test and speech class work.

You only get one response out of me until I finish.



> They're saying Orochimaru would've been a better villain overall if it wasn't for Kishi throwing him in the bin and replacing him with Uchiha. I assume. Didn't read every post.



:rofl

NOTHING about Orochimaru was "prime dominant villain" chief. 

Let me reiterate:

He called Akatsuki dangerous. Even more dangerous than him. An organization so dangerous he fled it.

Further on,  Itachi was considered more powerful than him because of his Sharingan usage.

It gonna be a pretty shitty and short battle if Orochimaru took the helm at FV. Not only would it show Kishi has shit grasp of power-scalings (power-scalings was already shifty in series get shiftier if Sasuke can take down Oro singlehandedly due to beating Itachi who is stronger than him or vice versa).

Let me refresh your memory on Oro noting how dangerous Akatsuki is:



I'll even quote Oro dialogue:



> Orochimaru:"First of all. If we only had gotten Uchiha Itachi to join us. There would not have been problems at all...However, that is...Just a dream to wish for...*Because he is even stronger than myself*...That is why...I left that organization..."



Even when Oro took full control of Sasuke's body this is his lulzy end:


*Spoiler*: __ 










That's it power-wise.

Story-wise Oro is flat as Tenten's ass. "Immortality". That's all he wanted. 

Excellent villain-making material. /smoke 

Madara on the other hand is the first one to unearth the history of shinobi and his tale is one that has to do with the foundation of Konoha. When Tobirama went into spiel about Uchiha being nutcases there was even a enormous debate in Konoha Library section on why it was wrong of Tobirama to shit-talk Mads like that. 

Not being a dick, but you joined around 2014 so you're unfamiliar with the thread based on it. Though trust me, the backing of the man was incredible.

Oro is too Hellsing laden to be a FV. Yeah, he a good villain but this is Naruto not Hellsing. He didn't nor did he have credentials to be recurring villain in this story.


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## Trojan (Apr 7, 2015)

> Hussain's saying Madara's role could've been filled by another character, which is true, but it applies to every character in fiction ever. Not sure what point he's trying to make here



It's not that it could've been filled by another character, but the fact that it was ALREADY filled by other characters. 
We have seen a Juubi's host before him, we have seen a Rinnegan user before...etc

Madara was only another repeat the same events more or less.


----------



## Platypus (Apr 7, 2015)

Bender said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tell that to the others, not me. I didn't say Oro should've been FV.  

Madara was fine for all the reasons you listed.


----------



## Milliardo (Apr 7, 2015)

bender, all i'm getting from you is madara was a powerful character therefore a great character. him being more powerful than orochimaru doesn't make him a better character. the biju ping ponging him around was retarded and it made them seem weak not madara strong. honestly, it didn't even make sense. 

world domination has been done a million times far from being unique. while orochimaru's goal wasn't anyhing new either it was different compared to the other major villains of the story. i prefer it over this world peace crap. 

i don't see how there should have been two juubi jins as obito could filled the role. madara could have remained in the past and it wouldn't have hurt the plot. it seemed like a way to extend the story. 


thats my take on it.


----------



## Bender (Apr 7, 2015)

Platypus said:


> Tell that to the others, not me. I didn't say Oro should've been FV.



Well, I'm just laying the reasons out for people who don't seem to get the fucking picture. 



> Madara was fine for all the reasons you listed.



Repeating what you said:

Tell that to the others. 

lol @ saying Madara didn't bring enough to the story. :rofl




			
				Milliardo said:
			
		

> *bender, all i'm getting from you*



Tis the reason hither why this is all I'm quoting from you. 

*READ* the entirety of my post before exercising any keystrokes to respond.



> It's not that it could've been filled by another character, but the fact that it was ALREADY filled by other characters.



Explain. Be elaborate. You're strawmanning so hard it's making me tear the fuck up at the lack of comprehending anything




> We have seen a Juubi's host before him, we have seen a Rinnegan user before...etc





An  *INCOMPLETE* Juubi host goddammit. 

We have the manga online and you should be able to easily tell what the bloody difference is.



Madara was the complete version of the Juubi host. He had both Rinnegan while Obito only had one.

Pain's Rinnegan weren't even his moreover.

And it's stated in the same arc that he's being used. This is all basic knowledge man.



> Madara was only another repeat the same events more or less.



Right, right I totally forgot that Nagato also wanted Infinite Tsukuyomi and was capable of the same feats a full Juubi jinchuriki is capable of doing. /sarcasm  

Madara was also repeat of Obito juubi host fight. Even though during his fight he was struggling while Madara didn't give any  room to breathe in his fight once he obtained a single Rinnegan(which was his to begin with).

EDIT:

I still haven't finished my work.  Once fully finished I'll be back and quote your entire post Hussain.


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## Milliardo (Apr 7, 2015)

madara is so powerful such greatness. hes the "complete" juubi jin and the "true" wielder of the rinnegan.


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## Bender (Apr 8, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> madara is so powerful such greatness. hes the "complete" juubi jin and the "true" wielder of the rinnegan.



Nice sarcasm. 

Not an iota of substance against Madara's holding the helm of being main driving force of story.

I'll say it again: this is not Hellsing and Oro's character had too much of that element in him and it would imbalance the story.


----------



## Stan Lee (Apr 8, 2015)

Madara was incomplete as well. He was missing the Yin half of Kurama.


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## Bender (Apr 8, 2015)

@Zero Requiem

Yin Kurama is pretty irrelevant to casting Mugen Tsukuyomi over the world. Fuck we didn't even know diddly about Yin Kurama until Minato entered the battlefield.


----------



## Stan Lee (Apr 8, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Zero Requiem
> 
> Yin Kurama is pretty irrelevant to casting Mugen Tsukuyomi over the world. Fuck we didn't even know diddly about Yin Kurama until Minato entered the battlefield.



Still doesn't change the fact that he was incomplete. Obito could have cast MT with the tree and Minato splitting Kurama was mentioned ages ago.


----------



## BrokenBonds (Apr 8, 2015)

Jane Crocker said:


> Who told you School Days was cancer? The one guy on this forum who keeps repeating that it's the worst anime he's ever seen?
> 
> That anime was absolutely hilarious


Yeah just because of the final chapter(s) I know. Before that, from what I've heard, it was crap.


Succubus said:


> firstly, Boku no Pico isn't an anime
> 
> because people kept recommending it to others and pranking them asking them to watch it without those unsuspecting people knowing what shotacon is. People are hating it cause they never ask for it and they still got to watch it


It's still a piece of fiction that is worse than _Naruto_, no? Though I guess it might not count because it's more so a porno. I never said it was an anime btw, I was referring to the _Boku no Pico_ manga because it seems the OP is talking about reading material.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 8, 2015)

> [=Bender;53309117]
> Explain. Be elaborate. You're strawmanning so hard it's making me tear the fuck up at the lack of comprehending anything


I don't want to write a lot, much less going in a debate that is without outcome since people differ in what they like. I am not interested in forcing you to accept my point of view in him. 



> An  *INCOMPLETE* Juubi host goddammit.


and?
Madara himself is incomplete Juubi host as he did not get the other half of Kurama. We haven't even
seen of him as much as obito did. 



Bender said:


> @Zero Requiem
> 
> Yin Kurama is pretty irrelevant to casting Mugen Tsukuyomi over the world. Fuck we didn't even know diddly about Yin Kurama until Minato entered the battlefield.



So? The bigger part of Kurama and Hachibi he got was also irrelevant as Obito was going to caste it anyway. 



> We have the manga online and you should be able to easily tell what the bloody difference is.
> 
> Madara was the complete version of the Juubi host. He had both Rinnegan while Obito only had one.
> Pain's Rinnegan weren't even his moreover.
> And it's stated in the same arc that he's being used. This is all basic knowledge man.


The moment he got the other Rinnegan he got fodderstompped by Zetsu.  
Also, if you mean Obito/Pain that were being used, the same thing with Madara. He was Kaguya's pawn. Nothing more nothing less. How is that new?


> Right, right I totally forgot that Nagato also wanted Infinite Tsukuyomi and was capable of the same feats a full Juubi jinchuriki is capable of doing. /sarcasm


and? It's not like if madara lived more than 1 second after he casted it. lol 



> Madara was also repeat of Obito juubi host fight. Even though during his fight he was struggling while Madara didn't give any  room to breathe in his fight once he obtained a single Rinnegan(which was his to begin with).


Not sure what you mean honestly. Madara got fodderstompped by Gai, Naruto, Sasuke, and Zetsu. He was pathetic.  



> EDIT:
> 
> I still haven't finished my work.  Once fully finished I'll be back and quote your entire post Hussain.



Take your time. Though don't expect of me to go forever with this. I do hate Madara and I think he is the worst character to have ever existed, but I don't really care whether he has fans or not.


----------



## Alita (Apr 8, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I really don't think there are many villains that are better than Orochimaru, excluding the fact that Kishi never spent the time to address Orochimaru properly in the War-Arc, Orochimaru is one of the few solid character in the series, and considering he is a villain that is even more surprising as Kishi arguably fucked the villains up more than the heroes on average. Fuck the only major moments in the war arc that were really any good, were Orochimaru's revival and him bring back the Edo-Kages. I actually think Orochimaru coming back and bring back the Edo-Hokages is what kept me reading the manga, besides the forums, when it really turned to garbage.


Orochimaru was great in part 1 but he became less relavent in part 2. I'll easily take the personalities of kakuzu, hidan, deidara, sasori, kakuzu, kimimaro, madara, and tayuya over orochi's anyday tbh. More than half of those characters also had more interesting designs and abilities than orochi's too imo.

And I found the highlight of the war arc being madara himself. His personality stood out over anybody elses imo. And he was fucking badass and never gave a shit about almost anything.


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## Trojan (Apr 8, 2015)

Nagato/pain should have been the FV imo.


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## Bender (Apr 8, 2015)

Zero Requiem said:


> Still doesn't change the fact that he was incomplete.



All that was necessary was to have kyuubi. Yin Kurama is just another persona of Kyuub.



> Obito could have cast MT with the tree and Minato splitting Kurama was mentioned ages ago.



Obito casting MT with the tree was doomed to fail no matter how you slice it. It was estimated to take 15 minutes. And in that alotted time Obito was foiled. As soon as Mads did what he did everyone was under the genjutsu.


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## Turrin (Apr 9, 2015)

Bender said:


> Ummm no... Madara's claim to final villain status is the fact that he possesses an aura that even the Kyuubi... blah blah


Your argument basically boils down to this. Madara is a better villain because he was eventually revealed to be stronger than Orochimaru. By that same logic Kaguya is a better villain than Madara, because she was much stronger than him. So unless your going to argue Kaguya is thee best villain in the series, all of the arguments you've expressed in this post about why Madara is better because he is stronger are absolutely moot points.

The truth is the measure of villains worth is not solely dependent on strength. Orochimaru wasn't the strongest villain in the series, but he was the most well crafted. His relationship with Jiraiya, was the original Sasuke vs Naruto parallel; Madara's whole back story with Hashirama was simply a poor imitation of that, as it had less build up in the manga; while Orochimaru/Jiriaya was built up from all the way back in the CE and continued throughout the entire manga. Madara's most major purpose in the plot of manipulating a young Uchiha boy, is also simply a copy off of Orochimaru's stick and how he manipulated Sasuke, but again simply a-lot less built up and established through the story, as again Orochimaru started his manipulation all the way back in the CE exams, while Madara's manipulation wasn't revealed until the 11th hour in one of the most convoluted and nonsense story-lines in the entire series. 

Madara's actual revival also served no point in the story whatsoever. He fought the Gokage, which had no impact as all the Gokage survived said confrontation. He than joined up with Obito, but by and large fucked around while Obito took point, until Obito was defeated. Than for a brief instance it looked like he might do something since Naruto and Sasuke were on the verge of death, but both were saved and than he was brushed aside for Kaguya. Literally if Madara didn't revive there would be almost no changes to the war-arc. 

Madara vs Gokage doesn't happen, but Gokage survived and joined the frey against Juubi/Juubito anyway, so that match not happening doesn't change anything. Madara doesn't show up at Obito's side, but since Obito and Juubi took point, that changes nothing, except maybe with Hashirama's help Obito goes down a little quicker [that would be a good thing as most agree that fight went on way too long]. And Madara not being around to take over once Obito is defeated changes nothing, besides Kaguya being revived quicker and Kaguya being the one to bring Sasuke and Naruto to near death before Hagoromo ex machina. 

So at the end of the day what Madara brought to the table as a villain, is his back-story being a rehash of Orochimaru/Jiriaya's, his role as manipulator of Obito was a rehash of Orochimaru manipulating Sasuke, and his direct role after being revived was pointless to the story at large.

Yet somehow he is a better villain than Orochimaru, yeah sure he is and da-nile is just a river in Egypt.


----------



## Pirao (Apr 9, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Your argument basically boils down to this. Madara is a better villain because he was eventually revealed to be stronger than Orochimaru. By that same logic Kaguya is a better villain than Madara, because she was much stronger than him. So unless your going to argue Kaguya is thee best villain in the series, all of the arguments you've expressed in this post about why Madara is better because he is stronger are absolutely moot points.
> 
> The truth is the measure of villains worth is not solely dependent on strength. Orochimaru wasn't the strongest villain in the series, but he was the most well crafted. His relationship with Jiraiya, was the original Sasuke vs Naruto parallel; Madara's whole back story with Hashirama was simply a poor imitation of that, as it had less build up in the manga; while Orochimaru/Jiriaya was built up from all the way back in the CE and continued throughout the entire manga. Madara's most major purpose in the plot of manipulating a young Uchiha boy, is also simply a copy off of Orochimaru's stick and how he manipulated Sasuke, but again simply a-lot less built up and established through the story, as again Orochimaru started his manipulation all the way back in the CE exams, while Madara's manipulation wasn't revealed until the 11th hour in one of the most convoluted and nonsense story-lines in the entire series.
> 
> ...



Damn, one Turrin post I agree with. What's the world coming to?


----------



## Bender (Apr 9, 2015)

(Am confounded by difficulty in seeing flaws of Orochimaru)




Turrin said:


> Your argument basically boils down to this. Madara is a better villain because he was eventually revealed to be stronger than Orochimaru.






In a single post you showed me that you misunderstood every-fucking-thing I was saying Unbelievable.. 

Madara is the best villain because everything he did expanded the plot historically and brought more importance to the bijuu. Hell, it's the threat he presented that brought together the Shinobi nations. 

Oro only exacerbated Sunagakure's loathing the political terms which bound them. There wasn't even any epiphany by which they realized how they were fooled. It's only the Kazekage being killed that they decided to bend over to the leaf.




> By that same logic Kaguya is a better villain than Madara, because she was much stronger than him. So unless your going to argue Kaguya is thee best villain in the series, all of the arguments you've expressed in this post about why Madara is better because he is stronger are absolutely moot points.






> The truth is the measure of villains worth is not solely dependent on strength. Orochimaru wasn't the strongest villain in the series, *but he was the most well crafted*.



Sigh...For the second and last time I was not implying strength is how a villain is great. If anything that's what *YOU* said:



> Your definition of feared is extremely narrow and only looking at thee final arc of the story. In Part I Orochimaru was absolutely feared for his strength with few other contenders. That's why Ebisu talks about how the general public opinion is that in the entire world on another Sannin could have a chance of beating Orochimaru.









> *His relationship with Jiraiya, was the original Sasuke vs Naruto parallel;*



We don't even get a flashback nor full-enough coverage of Orochimaru and Jiraiya's rivalry to even call it similar to Naruto and  Sasuke's relationship. 

Kakashi simply mentions it in part one and Jiraiya makes comical face


.
Kakashi neglects to mention what we see in Gaiden is that Naruto and Sasuke's relationship is similar to the one he and Obito had.


Madara and Hashirama is the one that started it all. Orochimaru simply flees the village so he can do what he want. 

Madara is the originator of most missing-nin abandoning the village to pursue their interest. Madara's path is one that more than just being a criminal like Orochimaru's but to enact Infinite Tsukuyomi.



> Madara's whole back story with Hashirama was simply a poor imitation of that



A poor imitation? We saw Madara and Hashirama bond with each other like Naruto and Sasuke did until the feud between their clans came between them.  

It happened with Hashi and Madara, then with Obito and Kakashi (thanks to Madara and  Curse of hatred) and lastly Naruto and Sasuke.


*Spoiler*: __ 













Madara's decision to return to his clan it's exactly like Sasuke deciding to exit the leaf so he can get stronger.




Like Hashirama and Madara

Naruto and Sasuke went from this


*Spoiler*: __ 










to this


*Spoiler*: __ 











early in their youth.

Jiraiya and Orochimaru showed none of this.

Now unless you have proof that they did (which I doubt you do because Jiraiya and Orochimaru's relationship is barely elaborated on) you have no proof that Jiraiya and Oro strongly resembled Naruto and Sasuke.

Jiraiya and Oro is Jiraiya feels failure complex because he couldn't save Oro and had given up on helping him and feels everything he did went to shit.


----------



## Sayuri (Apr 9, 2015)

Boku no Pico.


----------



## Magnelson (Apr 9, 2015)

I agree wholeheartedly, Turrin. Nice thread.

Sasuke and the Uchiha are the worst protagonist and group in fiction that I know of too. So much bullshit related to them... it's not even funny.


----------



## Bender (Apr 9, 2015)

^

Should just throw out there that Turrin also agreed that Naruto getting Sakura to love him was equivalent to his dream of becoming Hokage.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 9, 2015)

Yeah, that was a shitty point but he also made some valid ones which is what Magnelson is zeroing in on.


----------



## Bender (Apr 9, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Yeah, that was a shitty point but he also made some valid ones which is what Magnelson is zeroing in on.



Yeah, like the one point he made that Naruto being a main recurring theme.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 9, 2015)

I can't understand this whole debate about madara. 
he's a garbage character honestly. The story was better off before he appeared with all his BS, and plot shield. lol


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 10, 2015)

Bender said:


> Yeah, like the one point he made that Naruto being a main recurring theme.



What? Do you mean that point about NaruSaku and its relation to hard work? I just said that was a shitty point.


----------



## Bender (Apr 10, 2015)

@Hussain

Do you even know the definition of plot shield?

Madara had been thriving off pure motherfucking skill. He's one of the wisest and smartest character in the series. Your lil gimp boy Oro doesnt have half the knowledge Madara possesses. Shit he was around in the era when Edi Tensei was made.

@Seto 

I meant the posts of Turrin saying that hard work was a main theme.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 10, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Hussain
> 
> Do you even know the definition of plot shield?
> 
> Madara had been thriving off pure motherfucking skill. He's one of the wisest and smartest character in the series. Your lil gimp boy Oro doesnt have half the knowledge Madara possesses. Shit he was around in the era when Edi Tensei was made.



- I think so. 
- Madara wise and smart? 
He is the biggest fool this story has ever seen. 
the guy was a pawn his entire damn life by a lie from Zetsu. :rofl
What's so smart about that? He did nothing, it was all Kaguya plan! 
Yes, the same woman that people call her retarded fooled madara for decades. lol

- Please, I find Oro terrible and overrated in that regard. So yeah, that argument is not for me.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Apr 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> There are quite a few characters that would have made great FV's, if the story was different. However given what Kishi wished to accomplish with the story, Orochimaru should have been the main-villain, and the moment Kishi steered away from that the story went downhill. Why? Because with all the convoluted shit aside, Kishi wanted the story to be about 1 thing and that was the rivalry and ultimate clash between Naruto and Sasuke. *Orochimaru throughout most of the story was the one instigating the clash*, by tempting Sasuke into going further into the darkness for the sake of power. And Orochimaru's reasoning for doing so made sense, as he wanted Sasuke to become a more suitable vessel for him.


If you look closer, I think you'll find Itachi at the heart of these moments. Quite a bit of Orochimaru and his actions are tied up with Itachi, for better or for worse.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 10, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Seto
> 
> I meant the posts of Turrin saying that hard work was a main theme.



In Part I it was a prominent theme, and some time in to Part II even. It only ceased to be when it was clear Naruto was more of a genius in the sense the manga defined it than not.


----------



## Stan Lee (Apr 10, 2015)

The whole Senju vs Uchiha thing was a poorly integrated retcon, tbh.


----------



## Alkaid (Apr 10, 2015)

You know, In a roundabout way Naruto could technically be considered a prodigy. He mastered the tree-walking exercise the same time as Sasuke despite having an abhorrent amount of chakra compared to him, as well as Sasuke already having the skill for elemental release ninjutsu. He also mastered the rasengan significantly faster than Jiraiya and Kakashi. Kakashi himself was a genius on the tier of Itachi. He also took the rasengan to heights Minato himself couldn't.

He was outdoing geniuses from previous generations in big ways with so little training time under his belt. As far as I'm concerned Naruto walked into team 7 as a scrub, he didn't have anything but shadowclones under his belt.


----------



## Vermin (Apr 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Here's a list of the manga/manwha I am currently reading:
> 
> 1. Tokyo Ghoul, Tokyo Ghoul: Jack, Tokyo Ghoul: Re
> 2. Kamisama no Iutoori, Kamisama no Iutoori Ni
> ...



Ha. Ha ha ha.

You read Freezing, Air Gear, Bleach and Fairy Tail, but yet you have the audicaty to state Naruto is the worst.

Shut the fuck up.


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 10, 2015)

You do know that the 1st part of Air gear is pretty good right.. ..

the problem is right after where the anime ended that it turn into shit....

I dropped it around this part.  not sure about Turrin..


----------



## Alkaid (Apr 10, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> You do know that the 1st part of Air gear is pretty good right.. ..
> 
> the problem is right after where the anime ended that it turn into shit....
> 
> I dropped it around this part.  not sure about Turrin..



What happened to Air gear is what happens to all of Oh! Great's works. He started shooting all kinds of shit up 2/3 through the series and you never really know what's happening after that.


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 10, 2015)

True..


----------



## The All Unknowing (Apr 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - I think so.
> - Madara wise and smart?
> He is the biggest fool this story has ever seen.
> the guy was a pawn his entire damn life by a lie from Zetsu. :rofl
> ...


Nah. It wasn't Kaguya's plan or manipulation. It was all BZ. I'd say he was probably the smartest character in the series to be able to manipulate everything that he did. He was definitely the smartest in the Akatsuki at least


----------



## Bender (Apr 10, 2015)

@Seto

Lol because hard work was a theme in part 1 doesnt mean it was for entirety of story.  

Ah, but I forget some people dickride the hell out of part 1.

@Hussain

Thats the worst explanation of plot armor I've ever seen.

EDIT:

@Zero Requiem

It was partially mentioned in end of Naruto and Sasuke's battle at Valley if the end in part 1.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 10, 2015)

Didn't I just say that? Christ, man. It was a theme that was forcefully abandoned due to incompetent writing. 

Part I was the better half of the series, so rightfully so.


----------



## Bender (Apr 10, 2015)

Hard work was secondary theme. Friendship was the biggest one. It played role in first arc with Zabuza, Haku, much of the characters in Chunin Exam, Sasuke retrieval arc, and much of part II.

Part 1 is overrated.

EDIT:

How the hell was hard work theme abandoned?  It was irrelevant  for much of the story which Naruto was telling.  It's secondary and only most vocal in Chunin exam arc.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 10, 2015)

The All Unknowing said:


> Nah. It wasn't Kaguya's plan or manipulation. It was all BZ. I'd say he was probably the smartest character in the series to be able to manipulate everything that he did. He was definitely the smartest in the Akatsuki at least



It's her plan. 




Bender said:


> @Hussain
> 
> Thats the worst explanation of plot armor I've ever seen.



But I did not explain anything about it. lol

But anyway, what do you think of Madara returning in his prime when he died as an old fart? 
What about using Susanoo without eyes, just so he don't get sealed? 

just to throw a few things.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 10, 2015)

Bender said:


> Hard work was secondary theme. Friendship was the biggest one. It played role in first arc with Zabuza, Haku, much of the characters in Chunin Exam, Sasuke retrieval arc, and much of part II.
> 
> Part 1 is overrated.
> 
> ...



I know. Yet the point remains it was a theme of the story. It was forcefully abandoned because again, Naruto was more the conventional genius Neji was talking about ultimately. 

Part I was a far more consistent and coherent narrative than Part II.


----------



## Bender (Apr 10, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I know. Yet the point remains it was a theme of the story.



[YOUTUBE]FopyRHHlt3M[/YOUTUBE]




			
				Hussain said:
			
		

> But anyway, what do you think of Madara returning in his prime when he died as an old fart?



Oh, I don't know, let's see Rinne Tensei allows a person to return based on current state .  His body was held by Black Zetsu and directed Kabuto to it. Therefore, Madara has the same modifications which Kabuto gave him. 




> What about using Susanoo without eyes, just so he don't get sealed?



Here's a better question: how are you surprised by that when he's the same guy who could prevent being Edo Tensei'd? 

..... 


Oh, that's right it's because he knows Tobirama and around the era in which it was made. Hell, he even knows the point of Edo Tensei is take others out with you seeing as how the Edo is a reanimation.

Fail.

EDIT:

Read the text. It was a devised plan by Black Zetsu. It doesn't say Kaguya's devised it.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 10, 2015)

> Oh, I don't know, let's see Rinne Tensei allows a person to return based on current state .  His body was held by Black Zetsu and directed Kabuto to it. Therefore, Madara has the same modifications which Kabuto gave him.



Except my question is about ET. 
All other characters returned as they died. For example, Nagato with his white hair, and useless legs. 
Chiyo returned old, and so did Hiruzen. The only exception was Madara which was without any explanation whatsoever.  



> Here's a better question: how are you surprised by that when he's the same guy who could prevent being Edo Tensei'd?
> 
> .....
> 
> ...



- How is explaining one of his shit by another one makes it any better exactly? 

- Yeah, because knowing Tobirama means he knows how everything works, when Tobirama himself couldn't free himself from his own jutsu twice.  



> Read the text. It was a devised plan by Black Zetsu. It doesn't say Kaguya's devised it.



It does not matter, as it was Kaguya's plan to produce him so to speak to take advantage of Indra's stupidity and butthurtness, and his clan after him. The guy whom you think is the smartest and wisest character was retarded enough to fall for it over 60 years without him having a clue.


----------



## Bender (Apr 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Except my question is about ET.
> Old other characters returned as they died. For example, Nagato with his white hair, and useless legs.


.


> Chiyo returned old, and so did Hiruzen. The only exception was Madara which was without any explanation whatsoever.




 Kabuto. Made. Modifications. To.Him

You must have difficulty understanding things






> - How is explaining one of his shit by another one makes it any better exactly?



So adorable you are not understanding and making me play teacher. 

You remember Itachi vs Sasuke yea?

Remember how Itachi said he was going blind?



He activated it despite not having his Mangekyo Sharingan activated. 

[YOUTUBE]B0neB1b29l8[/YOUTUBE]

Must be fun not knowing these things and being educated. 





> Yeah, because knowing Tobirama means he knows how everything works, when Tobirama himself couldn't free himself from his own jutsu twice.



First time Orochimaru killed his emotions and second time Orochimaru had him bound.


And hilariously it's funny how you're bitching about Madara returning to life young and yet .... (gasp) oh that's right Orochimaru  Edo Tensei'd Hashirama to his youthful looking self.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 10, 2015)

> Kabuto. Made. Modifications. To.Him
> 
> You must have difficulty understanding things



Yes, because Modifications makes youth return. 
If he is able to do so, then why not for nagato and Chiyo? 

When Kabuto stated that, Madara looked to his chest. The Modifications Kabuto did was only about Hashirama's cells. 



> Remember how Itachi said he was going blind?



Because going blind is the same as being blind without eyes to begin with. 
Do you remember how Sasuke's Susanoo vanish when his eyes got exhausted, or did you just choose to ignore it?
touches on this
If having the eyes is so irrelevant, how do you explain this? 



> First time Orochimaru killed his emotions and second time Orochimaru had him bound.
> 
> 
> And hilariously it's funny how you're bitching about Madara returning to life young and yet .... (gasp) oh that's right Orochimaru Edo Tensei'd Hashirama to his youthful looking self.



Good, so only knowing is not enough.

- Except Hashirama was killed in a War, he never lived to age like madara. 
Unless you can show us where was it ever shown that Hashirama was an old man when he got killed.


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 10, 2015)

Hashi died young.. 

Tobirama barely aged when he got killed by the Kinkaku group from when we saw him talking with Hashirama about the Uchiha...

and Hashirama died earlier than that.


----------



## Bender (Apr 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Yes, because Modifications makes youth return.
> If he is able to do so, then why not for nagato and Chiyo?



Because Chiyo is fodder. 



> When Kabuto stated that, Madara looked to his chest. The Modifications Kabuto did was only about Hashirama's cells.



Senju cells are able to revitalize and mutate a person. Eretofore, Madara could be revitalized to his youthful self.




> Because going blind is the same as being blind without eyes to begin with.



It nevertheless address the common misunderstanding Mangekyo Sharingan always need to be activated to use Susanoo.




> Do you remember how Sasuke's Susanoo vanish when his eyes got exhausted, or did you just choose to ignore it?



Itachi's eyes also got exhausted and he was barely able to see Sasuke. What's your point?

 If Itachi didn't have Mangekyo Sharingan (or shit a Sharingan for that matter) who's to say in blindness you can't also activate Susanoo as well?

Using Sasuke is pretty poor example btw. He's a neophyte compared to other Susanoo practitioners.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 10, 2015)

> Because Chiyo is fodder.



lol, no. Chiyo was fighting Hanzo, and the Sannin (Tsunade), and she did really well against Sasori, and had experience with the uchiha before as well. And even if we take "Chiyo is a fodder", then is Nagato a fodder too? lol

and for God's sake lets say both of them are fodders if that makes you feel good, then why not making them less of fodders by returning them to their prime so they at least be a bit more powerful? It couldn't have harmed him. 



> Senju cells are able to revitalize and mutate a person. Eretofore, Madara could be revitalized to his youthful self.



Lol, no. Otherwise Danzo would have returned to his youth as well. Hashi's cells do give more chakra, but it does not make you younger. 



> Itachi's eyes also got exhausted and he was barely able to see Sasuke. What's your point?
> 
> If Itachi didn't have Mangekyo Sharingan (or shit a Sharingan for that matter) who's to say in blindness you can't also activate Susanoo as well?
> 
> Using Sasuke is pretty poor example btw. He's a neophyte compared to other Susanoo practitioners.



Itachi's Susanoo vanished after that as well. 
touches on this
here when it started going down.

And we know for a fact that the eyes are must. Otherwise, why couldn't Obito use the long range Kamui as if he never gave his eye to Kakashi? Why couldn't Shisui continue with his plan because Danzo stole his eye?

Surely having 1 eye is at least better than not having anything at all, no? 



> Actually, that is on you sir. Show me how old Hashi was.



It does not show much of him, but
touches on this
his black hair, is still black, not grey. 
Even part of his face does appear, and it's without wrinkles

and that's how Tsunade remember them
touches on this

Even Hashirama here 
touches on this
is talking about Hiruzen grown old, just like Mu did with Onoki, as they did not.

And here Hiruzen saying they look like they did
touches on this

...etc
Hashirama was never shown to be an old man. Not even once. Unlike your beloved madara.


----------



## Bender (Apr 10, 2015)

Lol stop clinging to the legend of the Sannin as if its special.  They became that because they aurvived a battle against Hanzo.The same Hanzo who Pain lol pwned.

Chiyo is fodder end of discussion. 

Also you're forgetting Senju Cells can cause mutation. Just look at wiki page. Hell, Jugo even de-aged in appearance when he lent some. Talk about someone forgetting do their research.

Itachi Susanoo disappeared cuz he died.

Lol da fuck does Shisui have to do with this?

I forgot Hashi died young. Lol.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 10, 2015)

Bender said:


> Lol stop clinging to the legend of the Sannin as if its special.  They became that because they aurvived a battle against Hanzo.The same Hanzo who Pain lol pwned.
> 
> Chiyo is fodder end of discussion.
> 
> ...



Not sure what to tell you after this, Bender. 

I guess if that makes you sleep at night, so be it.


----------



## Arles Celes (Apr 10, 2015)

Why hate Chiyo folks?

She was among the few that did not end up owned and sealed in the 4th Ninja War.


----------



## Pirao (Apr 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I can't understand this whole debate about madara.
> he's a garbage character honestly. The story was better off before he appeared with all his BS, and plot shield. lol



The story was better before Kishi started wanking the Uchiha in general and making everything else revolve around them. Then he had to make Naruto "the chiuld of prophecy" to keep him relevant, due to said wanking, which f*cked things up further.


----------



## Bender (Apr 10, 2015)

@Shade

There's a citation for it chum. Wanna see?

@Hussain

Right, right keep believing Orochimaru is the ultimate villain even though it was made clear multiple times he's a scrub who has been pwned time and again.


@Pirao

Sigh...How hard  is it to understand that the child of prophecy thing could have been wrong. Jiraiya had made mistake of believing Nagato was person until it was confirmed Naruto was it. Nevertheless that doesn't override the themes.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

Bender said:


> Madara is the best villain because everything he did expanded the plot historically


Madara's historical relevance amounts to a rehash of Orochimaru vs Jiraiya's rivalry and founding the village. That latter of which gives him importance to the village, but so what, Orochimaru was also important to the village, as he alongside his fellow Sannin were war heroes that in large part were responsible for Konoha surviving the great warring era [2nd and 3rd Shinobi Wars]. 



> nd brought more importance to the bijuu


How lol. The Bijuu were already extremely important before Madara's connection to them was even remotely hinted at in the series. They were weapons of mass destruction that were coveted by the villages to retain their power and by the villains to gain power; as well as the fact that well gee the strongest of the nine was sealed in Naruto, the main-character. In the manga NARUTO a series about Ninja warfare, you can't get anymore plot relevant than that. 

Later via Hagoromo's history, not Madara's, we learned more about the Bijuus' back-stories. However all that told us is their history and more ways their power could be utilized [in a way that most agree was extremely convoluted and marked clear decline in the quality of Kishi's writing]. What that did not do is effect the Bijuu's plot relevance, as they were already of the utmost relevance.



> . Hell, it's the threat he presented that brought together the Shinobi nations.


No it was the moves Obito and to a lesser extent Sasuke made that incited the 4th-Ninja War; while Madara was rotting in coffin somewhere. 



> Oro only exacerbated Sunagakure's loathing the political terms which bound them. There wasn't even any epiphany by which they realized how they were fooled. It's only the Kazekage being killed that they decided to bend over to the leaf.


It has nothing to do with exacerbating loathing. Sungakuru always wished to take down Konoha and expand their territory. But as one of the weakest economically and military wise of the 5 nations they never had the necessary resources to make a move against Konoha which was one of the strongest, if not thee strongest of the 5 Great nations. Orochimaru gave Sungakuru the necessary military might by offering an alliance with his Sound Village as well as the huge boon of a Sannin backing their cause. It was therefore Orochimaru who enabled that an attack on the leaf to occur and very nearly be successful, an event that had drastic impact on the plot.

It was due to Konoha weakning from that attack, that Itachi and Kisame could so easily infiltrate Konoha and encounter Sasuke; resulting Sasuke falling deeper into the darkness. It was Konoha weakening that allowed the Sound 4 to infiltrate so easily and take Sasuke with them, as well as prevent Tsunade from sparing any Chunin or Jonin to go after them, which enabled Sasuke vs Naruto, and ultimately Sasuke choosing to goto to Orochimaru to actually occur, which shaped the events of the entire story. 



> Sigh...For the second and last time I was not implying strength is how a villain is great. If anything that's what YOU said:


I said that as part of a whole write up about how feared Orochimaru was. Orochimaru was feared for his strength _as well as_ his twisted ideals.



> We don't even get a flashback nor full-enough coverage of Orochimaru and Jiraiya's rivalry to even call it similar to Naruto and Sasuke's relationship.


We actually do get several flashbacks, but that's nether here nor there. We didn't need a several chapter long, boring and repetitive flashback like we got with Hashirama and Madara, for Jiraiya and Orochimaru, because we actually goto to see their dynamic play throughout a majority of the series as Orochimaru was a direct a present threat, while Jiriaya was a direct a present shield, and both were instructors to the MCs. Because the relationship of the two and the parallel between them and Sasuke/Naruto was built up gradually and organically throughout the series and their personal interactions as well as their interactions with other characters [including the MCs], it was a much more successful and well established parallel.

While on the other hand Madara vs Hashirama, need that horrendous flashback, because both of them had no real direct interactions with each other or other characters prior to thee very last arc of the series, and besides off hand references of them and Obito pretending to be Madara, they were dead and buried throughout 90% of the series. Simply put we got that long ass flashback, because Kishi never built them up and fleshed them out as real characters beyond symbols before that point, so he had to quickly sum up what should have been a gradual build up like was the case for Orochimaru and Jiraiya into a several chapter long sleeping pill.



> Madara is the originator of most missing-nin abandoning the village to pursue their interest.


He's the first missing ninja cool. Am I suppose to give Madara the title of better villain, because he's the first. Might as well give it to Kaguya than, for being the first major world wide antagonist of the Naruto world, or fuck the other roughly dozen titles for being first to due x she can lay claim to.



> Madara's path is one that more than just being a criminal like Orochimaru's but to enact Infinite Tsukuyomi.


Orochimaru's path was more than just being a criminal. He an inventor and perfectionist who sought to find the perfect host body that would enable him to invent an entirely new ninja art subset by learning all existing Jutsu. This is a much more realistic and less convoluted goal, than Mugen Tsukuyomi. Matrix-Tsukuyomi as a plot device only served to introduce concepts in the plot that even fans that don't think Naruto is the worst piece of fiction they read, still largely agree marked the overall downward spiral of the series; such as the Juubi, Kaguya, Hagoromo, etc...

Fuck you talk about how Madara was such a better villain than Kaguya, but all the fuck Madara goal was is a copy off of what Kaguya did in the past, but with a less cut-throat and downright villainous motive propelling it further.  So if I have to have something as downright stupid and ridiculous as  Matrix-Tsukuyomi as a villains goal, at least Kaguya brought a sinster twist to it, rather than Madara who just wanted to play doll house with everyone inside the matrix.



> A poor imitation? We saw Madara and Hashirama bond with each other like Naruto and Sasuke did until the feud between their clans came between them.


I'm not sure you understand what the word imitation means. Imitation, _"a thing intended to simulate or copy something else'_.

The cool thing about Jiraiya and Orochimaru's relationship is that we got to see two shinobi from the older generation whose lives and personal dynamic played out similar to Naruto and Sasuke's, but unlike Naruto and Sasuke, whose story at the time had yet to be fully written, theirs was, and it had disastrous consequences. Jiraiya failed to bring Orochimaru back to the village or talk sense into him, and Orochimaru became a missing a ninja always seeking to destroy the village. Ultimately culminating in Orochimaru killing their master and Hokage [Hiruzen], tempting Tsunade [the sakura parallel] into nearly killing her student/Jiriaya, and  going on to be a major threat for the up and coming heroes of the next generation; while in essence Jiriaya had given up on his former friend. This was compelling because it showed what Naruto, but more importantly Sasuke could become as well as a served as a warning of what could happen if Naruto were to fail to deal with Sasuke adequately enough. 

The Hashirama and Madara story is quite literally a copy of these themes and ideas. Hashirama's story is once again about a Naruto parallel failing to deal with a Sasuke parallel adequately enough, which had devastating effects on the future, with the Sasuke parallel once again coming back to haunt the heroes of the new generation. 

That's why it's an imitation. It's a poor imitation, because instead of Madara/Hashi's dynamic and characters being build up throughout most of the story everything is instead thrown together into a single flash-back sequence. It's a poor imitation, as instead of them actually directly interacting with Naruto/Sasuke in the present throughout the story, their interactions are briefly contained within the very tail end of the final arc. It's a poor imitation, because Madara after going off the rails doesn't accomplish something quite as personally devastating as Orochimaru does in killing their former mentor and nearly getting Tsunade to kill Jiriaya. And so on...



> Now unless you have proof that they did (which I doubt you do because Jiraiya and Orochimaru's relationship is barely elaborated on) you have no proof that Jiraiya and Oro strongly resembled Naruto and Sasuke.


Really I have to explain to yo that Kishi wants us to see Team 7 as strongly resembling the Sannin, because shit like this was just too subtle for you to pick up on:


----------



## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

> Orochimaru hardly had any manipulation involved. Sasuke decided on his own to leave the village. He used Orochimaru and then formed his own group.


Orochimaru didn't manipulate Sasuke 

Orochimaru placed a dark curse-seal on Sasuke that is designed to bring out the person's killer impulses and in Sasuke case specifically push him further into the darkness, and assert influence on him via Orochimaru's direct will. Orochimaru used the fact that Sasuke felt he was falling too far behind Naruto and too far from reaching Itachi, to tempt him with power. Fuck there is a chapter in the manga literally named "The Temptation of the Sound", and it was all about how the Sound 4, under orders from Orochimaru, tempted Sasuke into leaving the leaf to pursue power:
touches on this
touches on this
touches on this
touches on this
touches on this

Sasuke did make the choice himself, but Orochimaru guided him on the path to making that choice like a horse to water. Fuck that's what manipulation is, it's guiding someone down a path that leads them to making a choice that is beneficial to your goals. If there is no choice it stops being manipulation and becomes mind control.




> Madara's major action is leading to formation of Akatsuki and summoning the Gedo Statue from the moon. With Nagato/Pain holding his eyes Akatsuki was able to seal the bijuu and little by little collect bijuu everywhere.[


Excuse me, but Madara's action did not lead to the formation of Akatsuki. Nagato's, Obito's, and BZ's action lead to the formation of Akatsuki. With BZ, not Madara, being the main puppet master pulling the strings. Madara doesn't get the credit for that, BZ and those whose actions directly formed the organization and accomplished it's agenda do [Obito & Nagato]. Fuck Yahiko as the one who formed the original Akatsuki deserves more credit than Madara does. Literally Madara's only point was to dance to BZ's tune, until BZ found someone more physically up to the task of actually enacting his plans.

It's absolute ludicrous to credit Madara as a better villain than Orochimaru for any of this, if that's the case than BZ is the best villain, shortly followed by Obito and Nagato, as they did much more of the leg work resulting in Akatsuki formation as well as threat in the plot. And I do mean leg work figuratively and literally as Madara was some emaciated crippled in a hole in the ground, if not a corpse in a box, for most of the steps leading to Akatsuki's formation and events concerning Akatsuki that took place in the series.



> Both Obito and Nagato were pawns of his. Nagato one which he worked on before Nagato knew and Obito from our own eyes. Both Hashirama and Madara helped build Konoha and one of them was hokage. Like with Hashirama, Naruto becomes Hokage.


Cool and Madara was BZ's pawn. BZ gets the credit for puppet master not Madara. So BZ is the best villain. 

Cool and Kaguya has more of the originator of things titles than Madara, so she's the best villain 

Cool and like Hiruzen, Naruto becomes Hokage. So Danzo is the best villain 

Fuck how well these villains were designed and built up. Fuck effectively they were written and  utilized in the plot. Fuck all of it, because clearly those amazing points are the deciding factor of who the best written villain is.


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Apr 10, 2015)

Madara and Hashirama is the best on panel demonstrated friendship in the manga. Orochimaru and Jiraiya being friends was really only talked about in passing. We hardly ever see anything we can call friendship.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 10, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Hussain
> 
> Right, right keep believing Orochimaru is the ultimate villain even though it was made clear multiple times he's a scrub who has been pwned time and again.
> 
> .



Nice Straw man. 

@Pirao

agreed.


----------



## Bender (Apr 10, 2015)

@Hussain

Orochimaru

Got owned by Itachi

Got owned by Hiruzen

Got owned by Tsunade

Got beat-down by Kyuubi Naruto

Got beatdown by Sasuke

Got owned again by Itachi when he takes over Sasuke's body (the same thing he was aiming for the entire series)


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## Milliardo (Apr 10, 2015)

didn't madara get owned by lee? 

there were plenty of other times too.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 10, 2015)

And what does that have to do with Oro exactly? 
I have never brought him, and I already told you that I think he sucks and overrated, and you
bring him again as If I ever mentioned him. 

It's like me telling you that Karin or someone else sucks as a villain when you never brought them up which
is stupid. 

I don't give a darn if Oro sucks or not because I never said that he is awesome or something. That's why your response is irrelevant. 



Milliardo said:


> didn't madara get owned by lee?
> 
> there were plenty of other times too.



and Gai, Naruto, Sasuke, Zetsu, Hashirama...etc


----------



## Bender (Apr 10, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> didn't madara get owned by lee?



Uh, yeah no Lee didn't own Madara. Mads and Obi were infusing their chakra to the Juubi and couldn't move during that time. So it's either keep pouring Chakra into Juubi and use it to pwn alliance or fight the alliance on their own.

Moreover, Obi wasn't going to bend for Madara.

@Hussain

Eh, guess I'm just laying into you about Oro because Turrin isn't around.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

@Bender

If I were to respond to your post I'd need to quote literally every other word, because there is just so much wrong there. My favorite was when you said I forgot that Sasuke was choosing to goto to Orochimaru, while quoting a sentence of mine where I literally said Sasuke choose to goto Orochimaru  

Ether your being proactively dishonest in your post, or you have a total lack of reading comprehension, ether way I see no point to continuing as I've expressed all of the points that need to be said, about the topics you brought forward, and to continue would ether be me just correcting straw-man like the above or just spoon feeding you things from the a manga you profess to know so much about; like Kishi intending Orochimaru and Jiraiya to parallel Sasuke and Naruto. I don't have the time or the patience to do such, so believe Madara is the better villain if you want, but your not convincing me that's the case, not by a long shot.


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## Milliardo (Apr 10, 2015)

dude, he totally got owned by a chunin. 

i'm sorry he could at least used like susanoo or something. madara is no better than oro in that regard lol. 

hell, gai before eight gates was punking his ass. 

even obito punked his ass.

i don't hate madara but i don't see him being any better.


----------



## Bender (Apr 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> @Bender
> 
> If I were to respond to your post I'd need to quote literally every other word, because there is just so much wrong there. My favorite was when you said I forgot that Sasuke was choosing to goto to Orochimaru, while quoting a sentence of mine where I literally said Sasuke choose to goto Orochimaru



And you're saying he manipulated using that "killing urges" BS from the curse seal which he suppressed in Chunin Exam and brought it out of his own free will.





> Orochimaru and Jiraiya to parallel Sasuke and Naruto. I don't have the time or the patience to do such, so believe Madara is the better villain if you want, but your not convincing me that's the case, not by a long shot.



How about you supply us with parallels of Jiraiya and Orochimaru with Naruto and Sasuke?

Evidence is everything in an argument and just your word isn't enough. When you don't it comes across making shit up. 

So c'mon cookie show us how Naruto and Sasuke are so much more similar to Orochimaru and Jiraiya than Madara and Hashirama.


----------



## Bender (Apr 10, 2015)

@Miliardo 

What don't you get about infusing Chakra into the juubi? 

His and Obito's were being focused into the Juubi.


----------



## Milliardo (Apr 10, 2015)

Bender said:


> How about you supply us with parallels of Jiraiya and Orochimaru with Naruto and Sasuke?
> 
> Evidence is everything in an argument and just your word isn't enough. When you don't it comes across making shit up.
> 
> So c'mon cookie show us how Naruto and Sasuke are so much more similar to Orochimaru and Jiraiya than Madara and Hashirama.


well surely you didn't forget the bell test? even jiraiya thinks back to it and how similar he and naruto were both being tied to the post. 




Bender said:


> @Miliardo
> 
> What don't you get about infusing Chakra into the juubi?
> 
> His and Obito's were being focused into the Juubi.


obito could still use his jutsu so i don't see your point.

come up with a better excuse.


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## Bender (Apr 10, 2015)

@Milliardo

Show me scan of Obito using jutsu while infusing chakra to Juubi.


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## Milliardo (Apr 10, 2015)

did obito not go unscathed when naruto attacked him with rasenshuriken? i could be mistaken because i tried to forget the god awful war arc but i thought he used kamui to save himself. 


even so it would have been better to abandon ship considering it was obvious he was going to be ripped clean through lol. lee literary kicked madara's ass well kicked through it. 

i'm sorry but that was not only stupid but a bitch moment for him.


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Apr 10, 2015)

Yeah. Obito had to phase through the attack to keep from getting his ass kicked through like Madara.


----------



## Klue (Apr 10, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Milliardo
> 
> Show me scan of Obito using jutsu while infusing chakra to Juubi.





And let's ignore the fact that Madara hadn't bothered with Susano'o or Shinra Tensei.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 10, 2015)

because he couldn't. We could say that Lee did not bother with using the gates either.
Madara got fodderstompped by Lee as a fodder, and no Rinnegan saved his ass.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 10, 2015)

Bender said:


> [YOUTUBE]FopyRHHlt3M[/YOUTUBE].



A typical response when you have no argument. You had already conceded to the point that it was a theme present in the manga at one time. Did you forget so quickly?


----------



## Deana (Apr 11, 2015)

I have read better manga but saying naruto is the worst is silly.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Apr 11, 2015)

Naruto is the worst huh...LOL
Didn't you have a Youtube channel DEDICATED to covering Naruto son?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 11, 2015)

Jak N Blak said:


> Naruto is the worst huh...LOL
> Didn't you have a Youtube channel DEDICATED to covering Naruto son?



It was mostly making fun of it towards the end.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 11, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I know the fandom loyalty thing got out of hand, but as far as the story went those lines became far less less distinct.



They were still there. Browse long enough and you'd see the bitching tended to be linked to fandom loyalty in some where. It became, and still is arguably, hard to find an authentic critique within the section due to that.



> For some, it seems very much so more of a generalized matter now. Kishimoto simply dropped the ball entirely.



It wasn't a totally bad story, but he I'd agree he did drop the ball into not fleshing out what made the series so amazing to begin with.



> I spend most of my time in the Cafe if that's what you're asking, but I had plenty of activity here as well.



Whereas I spent a lot of time in the Naruto sections; the fandom loyalty was still there every year.



> For specific events at the time, I did see that. Sasuke fans upset if Naruto seemed stronger, Naruto fans upset if Sasuke seemed stronger. The Jiraiya vs. Itachi debacles, and fair-weather fans that just threw their hat behind who they thought was the strongest at the time, and the most popular.
> 
> Yet again, as the story reached its conclusion I'm saying the lines between fandom become more and more blurred as it pertained to criticism. The writing became more and more a matter of being genuinely bad than simply a certain fandom's character or team not getting what they believed was their due.
> 
> People will always have something to say, you're gonna have to accept that.



I never said I had a problem with people saying anything. I just said considering the fan biases that tend to run this section, it just becomes quite hard to take them seriously given the awareness of the aforementioned history.

I believe I already agreed the story wasn't quite what it could've been, one of it being due to the rushing the manga for the film.

Though I wouldn't say that the lines between fandoms blurred. Rather the majority of certain fandoms could no longer post as they used to without looking silly. That generates "butthurt" which then cause a reactive critique as you'd normally see weekly. 
I don't mean to demean any honest criticisms, all my point is when you know the history of the section, particularly of particular members making the critiques, then it becomes ever so difficult to not see those "critiques" as bitching.



> In past years this was more frequent, but more leveled out by general criticism. There are some absurd reasoning here and there, but like I said the lines between fandom became less distinct as the story went on. When the writing started to slip, you saw normally opposing fandoms at times even concurring with another on the handling of the story.



Oftentimes those normally opposing fandoms would've been those that had been burned. 
I'm saying different fandoms would've had different ideas on when the story began to slip compared to those who didn't particularly care about a fandom.



> I know the Battledome is heavily saturated in character bias. It is simply an extension of a lot of vicious debates that went on in the past centered around the power level of a character, as people invested heavily into the idea that a stronger character = a better character. People wanted their preferred characters to appear the strongest possible, and especially stronger than those of 'rival' fandoms such as Jiraiya vs. Itachi that I mentioned before.



The battledome was the platform for the "stronger character" half whereas this section was the platform for the "better character" half. Both were intractably linked to fandoms.



> As long as it is about the story, I don't see what it matters. If absurd points exist in the critique, such as here the idea that Fairy Tail is a better series in spite of its reputation, or letting one's pairing preferences influence it, then it will as it should be dissected.
> 
> I don't see the point in a lot of Naruto fans that do this thing where they do not at all touch upon the critique but complain about the fact that it even exists.



It doesn't really matter, but it does influence the credibility of the critique. If someone who honestly doesn't give that much of a shit (hasn't spent ages making theories/predictions that've been proved wrong or doesn't heavily align with a fandom), then you could take the critique as a critique. 

However if critiques came along after so and so's favourite wasn't handled the way a fan or two believes... then sure its a critique, but not in the same regard as the one above. This one counts more as bitching. 

Hence why "fanboy/fangirl" opinions on things don't tend to be taken as seriously; the exaggeration factor that comes with it.

To be totally honest, you'll find that with fans of particular series all over. For instance, try going into the OBD or OP section and saying OP isn't such a great manga. You'd get some very, very strong reactions, arguably more than you would from Naruto fans. 



> Not really.



Really, most of the time. Particularly when you spot when the "critiques" of particular members started arriving.



> For some it can and on some points. However I do not think it invalidates the sum of their critique as a whole.



As a whole, no. But it doesn't come across as completely authentic either.


----------



## Bender (Apr 11, 2015)

This thread is rendered invalid in that Kishimoto says in *THIS*  interview that friendship is the most important theme of the series.

Shit here's even the quote from that interview:



> Since the beginning of Naruto, the plan was to always finish the manga with Naruto vs Sasuke. The interview starts with focuses on friendship, which has been an important theme in the Naruto series, and to Kishimoto-sensei it is something very close to the love of a brother or another family member. He says losing a friend is like losing one’s identity, which is one of the most feared things for a teenager. Those feelings culminated throughout the Naruto series and in order to convey those feelings, Kishimoto-sensei decided it would be communicated best through the final battle.


----------



## Milliardo (Apr 12, 2015)

Bender said:


> Attacks that were conventional styled weren't used. Only attack that was used was to save his own skin.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Correction: Both Mads and Obito were using their Hashirama cells to control the juubi.


why do you mention attacks as if thats what i said or was their only option?

its proven already in the thread that obito used his jutsu to save himself. madara could have done the same but he didn't.


----------



## Bender (Apr 12, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> its proven already in the thread that obito used his jutsu to save himself. madara could have done the same but he didn't.



The answer's obvious. Madara is an immortal regenerating zombie. Why would he need to defend himself when he can recover when-fucking ever?


----------



## Milliardo (Apr 12, 2015)

Bender said:


> The answer's obvious. Madara is an immortal regenerating zombie. Why would he need to defend himself when he can recover when-fucking ever?


oh ok now we are changing our stance. 

before it was madara couldn't move now it is hes immortal zombie so why bother.  


none of this changes the fact that lee kicked madara's ass and according to your initial statements there was nothing madara could do about it.


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 12, 2015)

The point is Lee broke through Madara Durability....


----------



## Bender (Apr 12, 2015)

@Milliardo

I'm not changijg my stance I'm being realistic. Madara has only ever exercised caution when he felt trult endangered. Remember his fight against the kage? He was toying with them and allowed them to get in shots whenever giving an exposition. Its the same when the kage believes they were gaining advtanage.

Madara being separated from juubi didnt mean diddly. The following chapter when he and Obito were separated the Juubi does Tenpeuchi and as result Naruto pretty fucking drained of chakra.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Apr 13, 2015)

Near the end of Naruto, the series really started to drop the ball. To be honest, the series started to seem like an increasingly bad fanfiction as soon as Pein was introduced. There's some nuggets of treasure hidden in the mess, but it's hard for me to convince other people of how awesome the series is now knowing what will happen.


----------



## Klue (Apr 19, 2015)

Bender said:


> The answer's obvious. Madara is an immortal regenerating zombie. Why would he need to defend himself when he can recover when-fucking ever?



To prevent the Alliance from breaking his connection to Ten Tails, obviously.



Milliardo said:


> none of this changes the fact that lee kicked madara's ass and according to your initial statements there was nothing madara could do about it.



That incident was forced.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 19, 2015)

> That incident was forced.



like with everything madara has ever done.


----------



## Prince Vegeta (Apr 19, 2015)

why did it take you 700 chapters to realize that?


----------



## RockyIII (Apr 19, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Milliardo
> 
> I'm not changijg my stance I'm being realistic. Madara has only ever exercised caution when he felt trult endangered. Remember his fight against the kage? He was toying with them and allowed them to get in shots whenever giving an exposition. Its the same when the kage believes they were gaining advtanage.
> 
> Madara being separated from juubi didnt mean diddly. The following chapter when he and Obito were separated the Juubi does Tenpeuchi and as result Naruto pretty fucking drained of chakra.



Bender just quit while you're ahead man. You're getting stomped almost as bad as mads got stomped by Lee. Multiple times now you have basically said "I will conceit if you show me a panel of this." And in the next post someone shows you that then you make some childish excuse. Stop it you're embarrassing yourself


----------



## Bender (Apr 20, 2015)

@Rocky

No one's stomping me at shit. I'm lulzing my ass off at much of this thread and how people are laboring on under the belief that Kishi is going recycle "hard work beats genius" theme which was minimally relevant in part 1.



Klue said:


> To prevent the Alliance from breaking his connect to Ten Tails, obviously.



Madara is an immortal zombie man. At that point both Mads and Obi were relying more on Juubi than their own skills. Plus, the Juubi was inevitably going to become harder to control as it changed forms so it's wise that they ditched it.


----------



## Klue (Apr 20, 2015)

Bender said:


> Madara is an immortal zombie man. At that point both Mads and Obi were relying more on Juubi than their own skills. Plus, the Juubi was inevitably going to become harder to control as it changed forms so it's wise that they ditched it.



They didn't ditch it, they were forced to.


----------



## Ninja Mangaka (Apr 20, 2015)

1. uchiha: now if sasuke was the sole main character then the whole story would have made some more sense seeing as they are the true protagonists and antagonists of the story. narutos whole life was determined by their actions. as it stands, it looks like kishi is just showing favouritism to them.

2. females: now I'm not saying they should be super hard but if we are to take kishis writing serious then we should at least be able to take the cast seriously as well. sakura will always be ridiculed, even daphne in scooby doo is more useful.

3. repetiion: after a while the arcs seemed to have the same objective which was catch the kyuubi. kishi just kept repeating stuff over and over again as if he thinks we are not reading. even going as far as to copy and paste panels.

4. retcons: kishi just got lazy, naruto regressed into " draw first and explain in flashback later " this takes absolutely no skill to write. what happened to the editors?


in closing......best way i can sum up naruto is a manga that is just as good as it is crap.


----------



## RockyIII (Apr 20, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Rocky
> 
> No one's stomping me at shit. I'm lulzing my ass off at much of this thread and how people are laboring on under the belief that Kishi is going recycle "hard work beats genius" theme which was minimally relevant in part 1.
> 
> ...



You can laugh as much as you want doesn't change the fact that you're gettin stomped.

And it would be wise of an author to keep his themes consistent throughout a series. it creates this thing called "consistency" it's pretty important. It reduces the amount of "wait, huh??" From the readers as they read.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Rocky
> 
> No one's stomping me at shit. I'm lulzing my ass off at much of this thread and how people are laboring on under the belief that Kishi is going recycle "hard work beats genius" theme which was minimally relevant in part 1.



Didn't Naruto's hard work lead him to the powers/abilities he obtained?


----------



## Platypus (Apr 20, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Didn't Naruto's hard work lead him to the powers/abilities he obtained?



It did up till the Prophecy and Transmigrant nonsense. The powers he got at the end were served to him on a silver platter by Hagoromo, because he happened to be one of his son's reincarnations.
Generalizing things you could say Part I Naruto worked his ass off to gain his powers, while Part II, War arc specifically, Naruto got them for nothing.


----------



## crystalblade13 (Apr 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Here's a list of the manga/manwha I am currently reading:
> 
> 1. Tokyo Ghoul, Tokyo Ghoul: Jack, Tokyo Ghoul: Re
> 2. Kamisama no Iutoori, Kamisama no Iutoori Ni
> ...



Dropping magi was the worst manga decision youve  made in your entire life. Its been godlike for like the last year and a half.


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## Eylandos (Apr 22, 2015)

Turrin lost credibility with his dropped list. 

What an absolute joke.


----------



## Jenny89 (Apr 22, 2015)

so much bashing here


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 22, 2015)

Ajimu solos..


----------



## Resistance (Apr 22, 2015)

It's actually interesting how bad Naruto became (Started going downhill fast after the Timeskip) when you know the author is the brother of the author of another Manga that had the same thing happen to it (666 Satan)

It actually shares the exact same arc of disappointment/loss of quality. 

If I'm not mistake, 666 Parts got so bad it was rumored to be canceled so the author rushed it to the end.

Same thing would have happened to Naruto if it didn't build such a following previously.


----------



## ButterflyGod (Apr 23, 2015)

Just popping in to point out, Turrin's list is of manga he both finished and or dropped. That means some of the titles he listed he actually did finish reading and didn't just drop. Perhaps he could have avoided some confusion if he had simply only listed what he had dropped or finished rather than throwing them all togther under one heading?


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## Muah (Apr 23, 2015)

KishI just isn't trying anymore.


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## Bender (Apr 29, 2015)

Turrin...It's one thing to be upset that I disagree with you..it's another thing to believe that my arguments are strawmans. I'm not going to quote where I heard this because you damn well should know where I saw you say this. You're presenting these personal interpretations as the official themes when it's stated by Kishi that they're not. Why is that so difficult to believe?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2015)

Platypus said:


> It did up till the Prophecy and Transmigrant nonsense. The powers he got at the end were served to him on a silver platter by Hagoromo, because he happened to be one of his son's reincarnations.
> Generalizing things you could say Part I Naruto worked his ass off to gain his powers, while Part II, War arc specifically, Naruto got them for nothing.



The prophecy just said Naruto could do something to help the world and a blue eyed boy would lead the Bijuu to unity. It never specified Naruto; at some point Nagato was the destined child. Their (Naruto and Nagato's) choices and actions led one to be the true one and the other not to be. I.E. the prophecy wasn't a pre-set thing which steered Naruto to his powers; Naruto had to obtain the powers through working hard anyway. 

As far as the transmigration goes, your point isn't that strong. Black Zetsu suggested only a few transmigrants did what Naruto and Sasuke did. I.E. being Indra and Asura's transmigrants don't grant you super powers. Naruto/Hashirama and Madara/Sasuke were the only transmigrants *we knew of*.

Part 2 Naruto still had to work to gain Rasenshuriken and SM. He still had to work to obtain and master Kurama's powers. Including Minato's "that jutsu", the chakra transfer. 

Kurama's Bijuu mode and the Senjutsu of the Six Paths were just Naruto using his powers as a Jinchuriki, which as you know he took time to master earlier. 

If you're referring to Kurama, Obito and Hagoromo providing him powers. Then really that's just something which fell into the theme present in the war arc that Itachi mentioned: doing things alone isn't always possible, you have to need help from others to do some things. 
Those characters just helped Naruto by giving him some boosts, just like in part 1 Jiraiya helped Naruto out by providing him with Rasengan, summoning and helping him recognise Kurama's chakra. 

If anything the prophecy and transmigrant parts were spoilers for the readers, in a sense, that Naruto would ultimately stop the world bring being destroyed and that he would have to fight Sasuke. 
We could assume he'd be strong enough, but we had no guarantees that he'd get extremely strong.


----------



## Summers (Apr 30, 2015)

well thought out OP, but I am still so tired of people dumping on the manga every day,every week every year, through hundreds of chapters.  It is what it is.  I think after 600 chapters people should have made up their minds weather this is worth reading or not and they clearly said "yes it is" cause they keep reading it.

The whole hardwork beats the genius thing is something lots of manga and anime bring up, the hero has more grits and guts and drive than everyone else. They keep getting back up even when the cool super strong people block their pass or make things seem hopeless. it is then quickly revealed that there is this one thing that makes them special, a parent, a teacher, some power, some gundam thing only they can use. 

I was never surprised or disappointed with how things turns out. First chapter made it obvious hokage was his dad and a mega powerful demon was inside him, the hardwork was getting to the level where he could harness and understand those inherent abilities.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 30, 2015)

Summers said:


> well thought out OP, but I am still so tired of people dumping on the manga every day,every week every year, through hundreds of chapters.  It is what it is.  I think after 600 chapters people should have made up their minds weather this is worth reading or not and they clearly said "yes it is" cause they keep reading it.


Summer the problem is that there are forum reasons to read the manga despite the narrative being shit. There is also the action and character design elements that are intriguing, especially due to once again the forum. 



> I was never surprised or disappointed with how things turns out. First chapter made it obvious hokage was his dad and a mega powerful demon was inside him, the hardwork was getting to the level where he could harness and understand those inherent abilities.


The problem is this was not the case. It was obvious that Naruto was the son of the 4th, but there was never any indication that Naruto inherited any of the 4th's genius, and in-fact he never did, rather it turned out his mother was an Uzamaki and he inherit some special traits from her. 

As far as the Kyuubi is concerned, Kishimoto went out of his way to make the Kyuubi more of a burden than advantage for 90% of the manga, and than simply changed that in the eleventh hour. Kishi made such a point of this that there used to be debates here whether or not Naruto would have been better off w/o Kyuubi or at least equally as strong. And those arguing such were certainly not w/o merit, because of the how much Kyuubi making Naruto's chakra hard to control stunted his growth early on and the fact that later he couldn't use Tailed-Forms for fear of hurting those around him and being taken over by the fox. So really the only things he gained from the Fox before the War-Arc was KN0 and a larger chakra supply, and he had to work his ass off Pre-Manga and throughout most of Part I to be able to use those things.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 30, 2015)

Honestly though I enjoyed every naruto arc.

The final arc had a lot of bull shit but it's a war. And in said war it had some pretty cool fights. It still had some charcter development ect. So all in all even though naruto dropped in quality in its final stretch overall I would still say naruto was a good read.

So for me it's not the worst thing I ever read. Fairy tail is though.


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## Summers (May 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Summer the problem is that there are forum reasons to read the manga despite the narrative being shit. There is also the action and character design elements that are intriguing, especially due to once again the forum.


By forum reasons; do you mean you want to keep up with the forum conversations? and you like the action, characters, and everything else about the manga except the hardwork theme? if so this is hardly the worst thing you ever read, and author is clearly doing something very right if you have invested this much into it. One part of the manga has clearly failed you but others kept pulling you back in. 

Also not saying you have to quit manga to criticize or even dump on one of its element's but thread title says "worst piece of fiction i've ever read" that's what I am struggling to believe.


Turrin said:


> The problem is this was not the case. It was obvious that Naruto was the son of the 4th, but there was never any indication that Naruto inherited any of the 4th's genius, and in-fact he never did, rather it turned out his mother was an Uzamaki and he inherit some special traits from her.
> 
> As far as the Kyuubi is concerned, Kishimoto went out of his way to make the Kyuubi more of a burden than advantage for 90% of the manga, and than simply changed that in the eleventh hour. Kishi made such a point of this that there used to be debates here whether or not Naruto would have been better off w/o Kyuubi or at least equally as strong. And those arguing such were certainly not w/o merit, because of the how much Kyuubi making Naruto's chakra hard to control stunted his growth early on and the fact that later he couldn't use Tailed-Forms for fear of hurting those around him and being taken over by the fox. So really the only things he gained from the Fox before the War-Arc was KN0 and a larger chakra supply, and he had to work his ass off Pre-Manga and throughout most of Part I to be able to use those things.


I was one of the people arguing if he would be stronger or not without, I could see how it would surprise some people, in those arguments few argued that the kyuubi would actually be expelled from his body. The kyuubi was there to stay until it was confronted by Naruto, and through that confrontation a boost in power was likely. In my case I thought kyuubi as an entity would killed and power taken, like in other manga. I also knew turning the demon/forbidden power to your side is also something that happens a lot.

I find the late, turning around of the kyuubi a good thing, that you and others did not see it coming is a good thing, a power that he struggled with for most of the manga has finally been partially mastered, no longer such a burden on him and others. Even after that he still needed to create a bond with kyuubi to fully master it.
Imagine if he did start mastering the kyuubi earlier, lets say when he hurt sakura during the Oro fight and he told himself he had to handle this thing. Step by step tail by tail, it would be even more in line with other manga, and we would get a stream of power-ups, every single time he got into a conflict, large and small. Would sage mode even been needed if it were like that. I lived that kyuubi was still around trolling, not letting him us SM to its full capability.

To borrow Vaatu's short point, the bonds theme is what came shining through, Naruto's hardwork was all so he can gain strength so he can then gain respect, and with that respect came even more power, powers that, yes I will admit, many can rarely stand a chance against, that's why so many people are trying to strait up steal them. Instead of earning the trust of the people who have those powers.  These are powers that he could not receive if he did show people his mental and physical strength.

I, while understanding the bonds theme and finding all the many connections interesting did not like it for a long time, because it included parts like naruto dick riding sasuke all the manga.

You were not being an apologist or making excuses for the manga, like you disclaimer seems to point out, you dont believe flaws people see after 700 chapters should drag down the manga.


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## MR T (May 1, 2015)

I really liked your OP, and I very much agree. The only real joy I got out of part 2 was when Gai went beastmode on Madara. It didin't really bring part 1 back, but at least for a brief window we got to see hard work and determantion getting some respect. But I stopped caring a while back. I actually thought the final battle would spin so much out in its bs that they would end up fighting on the moon or some kind of different planet just to destroy it in some flashy stalemate scene.


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## Night Spider (May 1, 2015)

I don't know. I loved the second part as much if not more than the first part. Also I didn't think the war arc was absolutely horrible. In fact I quite liked it except some parts like Kaguya, Kakashi's perfect Susanoo, Obito coming back from the dead..... Yes, there were flaws there and big ones, but I never thought them to be so serious as in to make me hate the arc or the entire manga. But, that's just me. We all have our own opinions and tastes when it comes to fiction........


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## Orochibuto (May 1, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> You can't obtain a high level of power scale in this verse without having talent, Turrin.



Tell that to Kaguya.


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## Trojan (May 1, 2015)

I doubt talent matters honestly. 
It's all about gifts and borrowed power as Kabuto kinda stated. 
rather, it's whether if you're from the uchiha/senju or not. Even more narrowed, if you're
a reincarnation of Asura/Indra or not.


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## Turrin (May 2, 2015)

Summers said:


> By forum reasons; do you mean you want to keep up with the forum conversations?


Yes.



> nd you like the action,


I like the action when the power-scale is no atrocious. Since we are going back to Genin/Chunin "level" with the Gaiden there is a chance it will be entertaining again.



> characters, and everything else about the manga except the hardwork theme?


I think your confusing liking character designs with like the character themselves. I don't like many of the characters, because their character arcs end up turning to shit. I do initially like the character's designs and abilities. For example I like the concept art for the new Star-Wars Movie that's coming out, but the narrative could be total shit when it's released.



> , and everything else about the manga except the hardwork theme?


Not at all. There is plenty of things i dislike about the narrative besides the betrayal of the hard-work theme.



> if so this is hardly the worst thing you ever read, and author is clearly doing something very right if you have invested this much into it. One part of the manga has clearly failed you but others kept pulling you back in.


I think you just don't understand my stand-point. The narrative is the worst I ever read. The character designs are interesting to discuss. Two different things. 



> Also not saying you have to quit manga to criticize or even dump on one of its element's but thread title says "worst piece of fiction i've ever read" that's what I am struggling to believe.


You can believe what you want, i'm just voicing my opinion.



> I was one of the people arguing if he would be stronger or not without, I could see how it would surprise some people, in those arguments few argued that the kyuubi would actually be expelled from his body. The kyuubi was there to stay until it was confronted by Naruto, and through that confrontation a boost in power was likely. In my case I thought kyuubi as an entity would killed and power taken, like in other manga. I also knew turning the demon/forbidden power to your side is also something that happens a lot.


I'm sorry, but like one of the biggest theories back then was that Akatsuki would succeed in taking the Kyuubi from Naruto and Kakashi would give his life to save Naruto w/ Chiyo's Technique. So no I think a large portion of people thought Naruto would eventually loose the Kyuubi and accomplish shit through his own power. Especially after Yamato made a point of this in the Rescue Sasuke II arc.



> I find the late, turning around of the kyuubi a good thing, that you and others did not see it coming is a good thing, a power that he struggled with for most of the manga has finally been partially mastered, no longer such a burden on him and others. Even after that he still needed to create a bond with kyuubi to fully master it.
> Imagine if he did start mastering the kyuubi earlier, lets say when he hurt sakura during the Oro fight and he told himself he had to handle this thing. Step by step tail by tail, it would be even more in line with other manga, and we would get a stream of power-ups, every single time he got into a conflict, large and small. Would sage mode even been needed if it were like that. I lived that kyuubi was still around trolling, not letting him us SM to its full capability.


It's not a good thing when it goes against everything previously established w/o any build up whatsoever. It trashes the Hard-Working under-dog theme and it literally resulted in the Bijuu being retecon'd from vengeful spirits of destruction to plush beanie babies. That isn't good writing, it's Kishi suddenly doing a 180 with the plot.



> To borrow Vaatu's short point, the bonds theme is what came shining through, Naruto's hardwork was all so he can gain strength so he can then gain respect, and with that respect came even more power, powers that, yes I will admit, many can rarely stand a chance against, that's why so many people are trying to strait up steal them. Instead of earning the trust of the people who have those powers. These are powers that he could not receive if he did show people his mental and physical strength.


I don't think the Bonds part of the manga even played well ether. Kishi tried his best to make Naruto's obsession to save Sasuke understandable, but as Sasuke's evil deeds began to pile up Naruto's bond with Sasuke being that strong became less and less relatable and realistic. Until by the end Naruto and Sakura just come off as victims of abuse.



> You were not being an apologist or making excuses for the manga, like you disclaimer seems to point out, you dont believe flaws people see after 700 chapters should drag down the manga.


I'm really not sure what you mean here summers. But what I said in the opening, basically reflects my thoughts that when the manga ended, while acknowledging the ending was less than spectacular I was being an apologist to myself, for still considering the Narrative to not be the worst piece of fiction I read, but after taking a break from the Naruto-section of the forums and the manga itself for a long time, I came to realize that it indeed was the worse, because it subverted one of it's core themes so intensely that the story lost all emotional weight, on-top of all it's other faults.


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## CA182 (May 4, 2015)

Good lord KL

I will read this entire thread and comment. 

I didnt think naruto worked up this level of discussion still 

And wouldn't label naruto the worst for sure but i have to read everything first before i comment


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## Mr. Black Leg (May 4, 2015)

Naruto isn't the worst of all . There are many canditates for worst, such as Fairy Tail or Fairy Tail and that shitty manga Fairy Tail .


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## Mariko (May 4, 2015)

OP: I think that the heart of the manga is more the power of the will than the "power" of hard work. "_Because, it's my nindo_" is the "philosophical" maxim of the story -still IMO. 

This way, Kishi never betrayed the heart of his work with Naruto. The main character do achieved his main goals/dreams by never giving up dem against all odds. 

(This said, it is only my feelings about it... )


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## Turrin (May 4, 2015)

Mariko said:


> OP: I think that the heart of the manga is more the power of the will than the "power" of hard work. "_Because, it's my nindo_" is the "philosophical" maxim of the story -still IMO.
> 
> This way, Kishi never betrayed the heart of his work with Naruto. The main character do achieved his main goals/dreams by never giving up dem against all odds.
> 
> (This said, it is only my feelings about it... )



I disagree. Naruto didn't achieve his goals because he never gave up, he achieved his goals because  Hagoromo gave him the power to do so. It had nothing to do with not giving up.


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## Trunksfangirl12345 (May 4, 2015)

I agree with the OP to some extent. Naruto was great when it was about an underdog with no special powers except an evil fox within him achieving his dreams through hard work, aka Part 1 was actually pretty decent and enjoyable, but Part 2, to just go and make Naruto's parents 'special' special people, to make him the Tamer of the Beasts, and give him all these unnecessary power-ups, turned him into a complete Marty Stu and ruined the story for me. Also, the saddest thing is Naruto goes through the manga-determined not to let anyone else-be alone like he was as a kid, then becomes an utter ass to his only son for vandalizing things (like he did!) for attention, and hits his son. 

All this Hokage does is goof around on his computer and ignore his children. It's a complete disgrace to what the younger Naruto stood for. The ending was a total farce. What was worse, to me, at least, was that Naruto always had to one-up everyone else, so none of the other characters ever got to develop at all. 

It's sad that it went from being a message to underdogs and outcasts that you don't need powers to be special, to just that. Naruto succeeds at things not because of his efforts, but because of his special powers and his parents' gifts. Look at Harry Potter. Harry grows up with no parents, yet still succeeds on his own out of sheer dumb luck and his own courage. He's a terrible wizard yet still manages to persevere without anything too special besides his scar. And he's still a loving father to his children in the end. 

I'm disappointed this manga had to end so disastrously. I liked it a lot. Critiques are allowed, guys, it helps things make sense. This guy put into words for me why I stopped liking Naruto. Good job. I write this as an amateur reviewer. 

I think the girls suffered the most, though-being married off is okay, as long as it didn't ruin their characters-which it completely did. Sakura, the brave, strong girl? Reduced to being a mere housewife who doesn't stand up for herself and kicks her own daughter around. 

What hurt most-for me, at least-was seeing Naruto be so cruel to people he cared for-like Tsunade. What happened to calling her Granny Tsunade? He tells her bluntly she's too old for this position. And all of the other ninja just give up because they're too old? Bullshit. This ending was terrible. It could have been solved much better than the lazy way Kishimoto decided to handle things.


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## Jυstin (May 4, 2015)

While I don't agree with the conclusion, because I've seen worse than Naruto, I agree with every point Turrin has made.

One of my last posts in another thread here was about Kishi's lack of depth and development with the characters, making them 2D and really undermining the impact of the pairings because they lacked character and development. It ultimately created a rift between the readers and the characters, making them care less and less for them, and ultimately causing a lack of care in the story altogether.

Reading did feel like just going through the motions. No emotions. When you take the "e' away, all your left with are motions. That's exactly what Kishi did. He took that "e" away, and gutted it like a fish.


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## arokh (May 4, 2015)

38000 posts and thinks Naruto is shit. Sounds like the description of the biggest f****** on earth.


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## Bender (May 4, 2015)

What the shit on thinking Hagoromo power-up helped Naruto achieve his dream of becoming Hokage.  Sounds like drunk ranting of mad man. 

By that same logic Kakashi shouldn't be Hokage even though he's one of the wisest fucks in the Konoha. 

Naruto had shown he won't give up no matter what over and over again and that helped him achieve his dreams.


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## Lucky7 (May 4, 2015)

Jυstin said:


> While I don't agree with the conclusion, because I've seen worse than Naruto, I agree with every point Turrin has made.
> 
> *One of my last posts in another thread here was about Kishi's lack of depth and development with the characters, making them 2D *and really undermining the impact of the pairings because they lacked character and development. It ultimately created a rift between the readers and the characters, making them care less and less for them, and ultimately causing a lack of care in the story altogether.
> 
> Reading did feel like just going through the motions. No emotions. When you take the "e' away, all your left with are motions. That's exactly what Kishi did. He took that "e" away, and gutted it like a fish.


Bingo. That was, especially near the end, the largest if not the largest reason why Naruto fell apart. Especially because Kishi, at one point, actually did make most of his characters complex and likeable, with a degree of depth. The devolvement of these characters hit especially hard particularly because as the themes and plots that were introduced grew more complex, so did the writing and the characters grow more simplistic. Kishi's obsession with keeping everything black and white and intentionally making it so Naruto never has to think deeply about anything complicated or important while conveniently fixing it so he doesn't have any real obstacles that don't have an obvious solution or a black and white moral area was onethe worst decisionhe's ever made for the writing. 

Didn't have any really strong feelings for the manga, but I did like many of the characters and found some parts actually genuinely interesting and well written (these parts usually only came in short bursts though ). It really is too bad, because Naruto, despite being mediocre at best, had some of the greatest potential I've ever seen for a series. I guess its just always a shame to see so much potential be wasted, right up there with Legend of Korra as series with the most wasted potential.


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## Alkaid (May 4, 2015)

I've always thought the hard work vs. genius trope was silly anyway. I've never met a "genius" in real life who didn't practice consistently and in large amounts, I.E work hard.


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## Jυstin (May 4, 2015)

Yeah what made Naruto seem especially bad wasn't just how mediocre it was at the end, but because of what it was at the end compared to what it used to be. We all know Kishimoto has that talent. Part 1 was amazing. On its own, easily in my top 10. Top 6 even. But as a whole? Not even in my defined top 16.

I even liked SAO better 

Though lemme be honest about that one. I like swords, I like video games, and I love duster/trenchcoats. You put those three things together and I'll stick my dick in it, even if it's an electrical outlet. That's how balls to the wall I am. Part of why I love Fire Emblem PoR and RD is because of those swordmasters/trublades and their badass coats.

And yeah I heard about Korra. From what I read about her character, she sounds like a pretty fail avatar. Was never a huge fan of the series anyway, but Aang was cool.


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## Alkaid (May 4, 2015)

Radiant Dawn's mediocre support conversations bother me to this day.

PoR is 10/10 in everything though.


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## Lucky7 (May 4, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> I've always thought the hard work vs. genius trope was silly anyway. I've never met a "genius" in real life who didn't practice consistently and in large amounts, I.E work hard.


The hilarious thing about that is that the genius characters in Naruto in fact do work hard. Just as hard as the underdog characters. Sasuke, Neji, Kakashi, Orochimaru, Hashirama, Madara and practically every genius character that you can note busted their asses despite their natural talent. I always thought Kishi was going for a more "hard work can match up equally to natural talent" rather than "hard work beats genius because geniuses don't have to work at it" because, besides Gaara who doesn't really count, he never made a genius character who _didn't_ work hard.


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## Jυstin (May 4, 2015)

Yeah RD kinda gimped on that. They really went all out on designs and attack animations, and I like the Battle Save feature to max stats with enough resetting, but the story kinda had a flipped meaning from the first one, and the support conversations, while it's nice you can have anyone talk with anyone, were kinda generic.

PoR says lots of shit that has a lot of meaning to it. Was watching Kitchen Nightmares, because that's a thing I'm now addicted to, and someone was criticizing Gordon Ramsay on his blunt and tactless manner of speaking sometimes, and a line of Ike's that he said to Soren came to me.

"Your ability to speak plainly the things others won't is part of what makes you brilliant. Others are too bound by courtesy...With you, I trust that what you say is exactly what you think."

Just perfect.


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## Alkaid (May 4, 2015)

Yep. The interpersonal relationships and the battle conversations you could trigger in PoR were amazing. Kind of like Dark Souls in that you had to look for stuff instead of having it thrown in your face.


*Spoiler*: __ 



The little conversation between Soren and Petrine was so cash.






Lucky7 said:


> The hilarious thing about that is that the genius characters in Naruto in fact do work hard. Just as hard as the underdog characters. Sasuke, Neji, Kakashi, Orochimaru, Hashirama, Madara and practically every genius character that you can note busted their asses despite their natural talent. I always thought Kishi was going for a more "hard work can match up equally to natural talent" rather than "hard work beats genius because geniuses don't have to work at it" because, besides Gaara who doesn't really count, he never made a genius character who _didn't_ work hard.



Yeah, I can't really think of a series I've read where the genius isn't engaged in his field very often. Maybe Berserker from HSDK or Bunshichi from Tenjou Tenge count.


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## Jυstin (May 4, 2015)

_"Now let me show you *true* fear!"_

*Crit Elthunder OHKO*

Every. Single. Time.


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## Alkaid (May 4, 2015)

You have good taste in games and anime, sir.


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## Turrin (May 4, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> I've always thought the hard work vs. genius trope was silly anyway. I've never met a "genius" in real life who didn't practice consistently and in large amounts, I.E work hard.


It's not about the genius not doing hard-work, it's about the under-dog having to work that much harder to make up the gap. 

Though i'm surprised you never met a genius that didn't do hard-work, because I sure have.


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## Revolution (May 4, 2015)

Bender said:


> Kakashi shouldn't be Hokage even though *he's one of the wisest fucks in the Konoha*.



Kakashi failed leading Team Minato.  Kakashi failed to protect Sasuke or help him with revenge, but supported Shikamaru in his revenge 110%  Kakashi tried to hide Naruto from the truth about Sasuke's execution orders from Konoha.  Kakashi tried to hide Naruto from the truth about the war.  Kakashi told Naruto to keep those responsible for the Uchiha genocide covered up and took orders from those same elders no questions asked.   

How is he wise again?  Winning strategy against Kaguya with the support of phantom shota ObitoRin?


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## Alkaid (May 4, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Though i'm surprised you never met a genius that didn't do hard-work, because I sure have.



In what activity? All the geniuses I know do what they do for hours at a day almost every day.



Turrin said:


> It's not about the genius not doing hard-work, it's about the under-dog having to work that much harder to make up the gap.



That's the thing. What genius in this series wasn't going balls to the wall 24/7? All Sasuke did was  train. The older generation geniuses like Madara and Hashirama were on the battlefield as early as 6. The same holds true for Itachi and Kakashi. They lived and breathed combat.

What can the underdog do when the genius is also working as hard as he is, and in some cases more?



Revolution said:


> Kakashi failed leading Team Minato.  Kakashi failed to protect Sasuke or help him with revenge, but supported Shikamaru in his revenge 110%  Kakashi tried to hide Naruto from the truth about Sasuke's execution orders from Konoha.  Kakashi tried to hide Naruto from the truth about the war.  Kakashi told Naruto to keep those responsible for the Uchiha genocide covered up and took orders from those same elders no questions asked.
> 
> How is he wise again?  Winning strategy against Kaguya with the support of phantom shota ObitoRin?



Kakashi is a hypocrite and I've never liked him. His motto is those who abandon their teammates are worse than scum. Well, what about those who abandon their Sensei's son? Naruto never confronting Kakashi about that ranks higher on my wtf list than Naruto and Karin never having a conversation.

Naruto was like, "So you knew who my pops was, Kakashi?"

"Yep, lol."


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## Bender (May 4, 2015)

@Revolution

What execution orders? Danzo's ROOT operations had been deactivated ever since Hiruzen's reign. Even Kakashi couldnt predict that Danzo would attempt to kill Sasuke under Tsunade's watch. Also Uchiha hatred is something that isnt easily going to go away just by him Kakashi talking to him about it.

Also Kakashi still did accomplish something by properly raising Minato's son.


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## Turrin (May 4, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> In what activity? All the geniuses I know do what they do for hours at a day almost every day.


Specific college courses.



> That's the thing. What genius in this series wasn't going balls to the wall 24/7? All Sasuke did was  train. The older generation geniuses like Madara and Hashirama were on the battlefield as early as 6. The same holds true for Itachi and Kakashi. They lived and breathed combat.
> 
> What can the underdog do when the genius is also working as hard as he is, and in some cases more?


Work harder, which is exactly what Naruto did for most of the manga.


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## shade0180 (May 4, 2015)

> Also Kakashi still did accomplish something by properly raising Minato's son.



The one who did this is Jiraiya, Iruka and the 3rd.

 Kakashi had no hands in this...


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## Alkaid (May 4, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Work harder, which is exactly what Naruto did for most of the manga.



But when you look at Sasuke and Naruto's situations before and up until graduation as well as training-related feats, isn't Sasuke the hard-worker *and* Naruto the genius? Kishi may not have meant to present it that way, but if you look at it with a critical eye that's exactly what it comes out to. 

Sasuke was training often before the massacre and was all about training after it. Meanwhile, Naruto was training, but he was also wasting time on pranks and other attention seeking activities while fooling around in class. Sasuke leaves the academy a hyper-competent genin and Naruto comes out a mess sans the A-rank jutsu he learned in hours from a scroll with no help while being shit at reading. Keep in mind it took Sasuke a week to become competent at a C-rank jutsu.

Then Naruto masters the tree climbing exercise the same time as Sasuke despite having an abhorrent amount of chakra compared to him. Then he beats people he has no business beating like Kiba and Neji through natural battle genius and ingenuity. 

I'd continue to list more, but through the entire series before the end of the Pain arc, Naruto is mastering jutsu that took other noted geniuses who defined their generations months much faster than them. It seems anytime Naruto wasn't on a mission, he was joking around. 

I'd like to know how he kept up with and overcame people who had years of training on him as well as proper instruction.


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## shade0180 (May 4, 2015)

Naruto is a genius.. Not book smart.. He is a genius when it comes to practicals..

Not even sure why he isn't regarded as one..

He started as an underdog because no one has been able to figure out how to work with him, Kakashi gave him to Ebisu a trainer who is by the book, the academy an institute who also work by the book . No one probably grasp it because of their code and how thye lived.
Which basically is to follow the command of the higher up to the letter... Naruto can't do that just like Jiraiya...


. and It did came out during the period Jiraiya started training him..


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## Turrin (May 4, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> But when you look at Sasuke and Naruto's situations before and up until graduation as well as training-related feats, isn't Sasuke the hard-worker *and* Naruto the genius?
> 
> Sasuke was training often before the massacre and was all about training after it. Meanwhile, Naruto was training, but he was also wasting time on pranks and other attention seeking activities while fooling around in class.


Your speculating on events that we don't have the necessary data to comment on. All we can say is we do not know how much effort Naruto vs Sasuke put into training pre-manga.



> Sasuke leaves the academy a hyper-competent genin and Naruto comes out a mess sans the A-rank jutsu he learned in hours from a scroll with no help while being shit at reading. Keep in mind it took Sasuke a week to become competent at a C-rank jutsu.


And it took Naruto a month of grueling training to learn another A-Rank Technique. So I must assume Kishi in ch1 simply did not have a grasp of how he wanted ranks to work, or TKB/KB's rank is due to chakra consumption rather than the Ninjutsu proficiency it requires to cast. 



> Then Naruto masters the tree climbing exercise the same time as Sasuke despite having an abhorrent amount of chakra compared to him.


You mean he masters Tree-Climbing at the same time as Sasuke by working to the point of collapsing, I.E. much harder than Sasuke.



> Then he beats people he has no business beating like Kiba and Neji through natural battle genius and ingenuity.


Huh.... He beat Neji by training his ass off with Jiraiya. He beat Kiba by getting lucky a farting.



> I'd continue to list more, but through the entire series before the end of the Pain arc, Naruto is mastering jutsu that took other noted geniuses who defined their generations months much faster than them. It seems anytime Naruto wasn't on a mission, he was joking around


No he doesn't. 



> I'd like to know how he kept up with and overcame people who had years of training on him as well as proper instruction.


Working much harder than them.


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## CyberianGinseng (May 4, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> Then Naruto masters the tree climbing exercise the same time as Sasuke despite having an abhorrent amount of chakra compared to him.


Tell me who trained harder again?


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## Alkaid (May 5, 2015)

CyberianGinseng said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me who trained harder again?



*Spoiler*: __ 





I can concede that he worked harder in this case when it came to the tree climbing.




Turrin said:


> Your speculating on events that we don't have the necessary data to comment on. All we can say is we do not know how much effort Naruto vs Sasuke put into training pre-manga.



We have enough. We have pages of Naruto fooling around at the academy and wasting time pranking while we have a diligent Sasuke. Sasuke was utterly consumed post massacre with training.




Turrin said:


> And it took Naruto a month of grueling training to learn another A-Rank Technique. So I must assume Kishi in ch1 simply did not have a grasp of how he wanted ranks to work, or TKB/KB's rank is due to chakra consumption rather than the Ninjutsu proficiency it requires to cast.



I can agree with this. 




Turrin said:


> Huh.... He beat Neji by training his ass off with Jiraiya.



And Neji was idle during this time? He was working on recreating a technique he knew of with only sight to go on. That's not exactly easy.




Turrin said:


> No he doesn't.



Jiraiya had years to perfect his sage mode but was unable to do so while Naruto did so in less than 2 months. Among Jiraiya, Minato, Kakashi and Naruto, only Naruto was able to add a chakra nature to the Rasengan and then take it a step farther. 

All I'm saying is the hard work trope is silly because these other people are not sitting idle twiddling their thumbs while the MC grows stronger.  




Turrin said:


> Working much harder than them.



And that's silly. We have pages of Neji training as young as 4 years old. The hard work vs genius trope is lame because it assumes the genius is sitting idle twiddling his thumbs while hard worker goes balls to the wall for a month and  makes up for all the training time and experience the genius has on him.


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## Pirao (May 5, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Revolution
> 
> What execution orders? Danzo's ROOT operations had been deactivated ever since Hiruzen's reign. Even Kakashi couldnt predict that Danzo would attempt to kill Sasuke under Tsunade's watch. Also Uchiha hatred is something that isnt easily going to go away just by him Kakashi talking to him about it.
> 
> *Also Kakashi still did accomplish something by properly raising Minato's son*.



Wut?  Kakashi din't raise sh*t.


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## Turrin (May 5, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> We have enough. We have pages of Naruto fooling around at the academy and wasting time pranking while we have a diligent Sasuke. Sasuke was utterly consumed post massacre with training.


I'm sorry but a few pages of Naruto pranking, isn't enough to evaluate how much or how little two individuals trained during a 12 Year time period. It just isn't. And while you could certainly make the argument that Kishi could have done a better job highlighting Naruto's back-story and how hard he trained during those years, you can't say Sasuke trained harder, as their is absolutely nothing that proves that conclusively. And Naruto started the series way better than Naruto in a many skills anyway.



> And Neji was idle during this time? He was working on recreating a technique he knew of with only sight to go on. That's not exactly easy.


Did I say Neji was idle? No I said Naruto worked harder than Neji.



> Jiraiya had years to perfect his sage mode but was unable to do so while Naruto did so in less than 2 months. Among Jiraiya, Minato, Kakashi and Naruto, only Naruto was able to add a chakra nature to the Rasengan and then take it a step farther.


I've already said the manga already began to violate this theme by the time of the Pain-Arc, so that point is moot.



> All I'm saying is the hard work trope is silly because these other people are not sitting idle twiddling their thumbs while the MC grows stronger.
> And that's silly. We have pages of Neji training as young as 4 years old. The hard work vs genius trope is lame because it assumes the genius is sitting idle twiddling his thumbs while hard worker goes balls to the wall for a month and makes up for all the training time and experience the genius has on him.


And all i'm saying is you fail to understand the theme than, because for the 3rd time it's not Hard-Work vs Lazy Ass. It's Naruto being the under-dog had to work even harder than these individuals, that is until the theme was butchered around the Pain-Arc and even more so in the War-Arc.


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## Bender (May 5, 2015)

Kakashi has been a helluva positive influence on Naruto. Even if he aint raise him as a baby he still did a damn good job mentoring him.



> Huh.... He beat Neji by training his ass off with Jiraiya.



Good lord so much shoe-horning of this bullshit "hard-work= greater than everyone". Neji trained his ass off to have equal strength to a main family member of the Hyuga. By Part 2 there is not enough proof to gauge his strength to a head member of the Hyuga.

Also Naruto beat Neji by partially tapping into the Kyuubi's power. What Jiraiya helped Naruto do was to be more aware of Kyuubi's Chakra by pushing him off a cliff. It worked and he used minimal amount of Kyuubi's strength to summon Gamabunta. 

Try again.


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## RockyIII (May 8, 2015)

Bender said:


> Kakashi has been a helluva positive influence on Naruto. Even if he aint raise him as a baby he still did a damn good job mentoring him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're trying to justify and make a point that really does not make sense. I think we can all agree there was a drastic change in tone between part 1 and part 2. If you like part 2 better then, great. But you're really reaching to connect the two. They are basically different mangas only connected by the same characters.


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## Mizura (May 8, 2015)

Guys, even if Kishimoto didn't state explicitly hard work vs genius as one of the core themes, if he Didn't intend to play it up in the first place, he wouldn't have made Naruto a loser in the first place, hid his identity as Yondaime's son, nor played up his rivalry against 'genius' Sasuke. Clearly with such a setup, he wanted readers to root for Naruto as the underdog. It may have been a red herring from the start (since it's clear he meant for Naruto to have a lineage), but he did intend for the readers to consider Naruto as the loser who overcame the odds (namely opponents seemingly more gifted from birth), a characterization he evidently dropped once he decided he's milked it enough, then replaced with a messiah characterization...


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## Trunksfangirl12345 (Aug 7, 2015)

One thing's for sure. Naruto was a lazy kid and stuff came to him by chance. I've seen pranking characters that are still awesome. One of them has to be Kaito Kuroba. While he's a prankster and a thief, he is still a badass. And he's not afraid to do hard work, instead of being a lazy guy. He has honor. 

I wish we would have gotten to see some of Naruto's ingenuity. Instead we got a terrible ending.


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## God (Aug 8, 2015)

"Hard work is everything."

Sure, that's why Lee is the main character 

Manga was trash after Pein. Too bad I cant get my time back.


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## Addy (Aug 8, 2015)

i wonder if turrin changed his opinion by now


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## Josephmsz (Aug 8, 2015)

Addy said:


> i wonder if turrin changed his opinion by now



Nope, he's too far into himself to change his opinion. I can already tell after 30 something pages of people trying to argue that this series doesn't suck, he still hasn't changed his mind.


Naruto started out wanting to become Hokage, and he achieved it.
His nindo - "I'm not gonna run away and I never go back on my word, that is my nindō! My ninja way!"
He has been saying his nindo since season 1 of the original series and he stayed true to his words. (Except for when he said he won't let obito kill his friends and he killed neji, let's be honest, that was to further plot) his one main goal was to be acknowledged by all of the villagers and become Hokage, which he did.

And if you want to talk about hand-me-down powerups, it isn't really his fault. If the villains had stayed at the same skill level, he wouldn't have needed so many powerups. Kaguya was an astonishing a**pull, and he needed a way to beat her. So Kishi did the only thing he could, and just handed him a power up. Up until pain, he worked for all his powerups. When he got KCM and BM, he didn't necessarily work for them, but he still got them in a way that made sense.

In the end, Naruto achieved his goal, and that makes a great manga for me. Been following naruto for 10 years, and I would do it all over again. And sorry, but there's no way I'm going to believe that you find Naruto the worst manga of them all after you read fairy tale. I'm forced to believe that you are extremely exaggerating. I don't care what your definition of worse is, I'm not going to believe you.


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## Platypus (Aug 8, 2015)

Josephmsz said:


> And if you want to talk about hand-me-down powerups, it isn't really his fault. If the villains had stayed at the same skill level, he wouldn't have needed so many powerups. Kaguya was an astonishing a**pull, and he needed a way to beat her. So Kishi did the only thing he could, and just handed him a power up. Up until pain, he worked for all his powerups. When he got KCM and BM, he didn't necessarily work for them, but he still got them in a way that made sense.




So the villains are at fault for Naruto receiving power-ups on a silver platter, not the writer himself?


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## Miyazaki Haiko (Aug 8, 2015)

In a belated response to the OP, I agree with everything you said but concur on one point: 

Naruto is definitely NOT the worst story I've read. That title goes to Twilight, because that's the worst _I've read_, but still definitely not the worst OUT THERE.

Anyway, here's a little bit of evidence and explanation:

Up until the Invasion of Pain, I think we all agree that Naruto was reaching the apex of its popularity and success. Reason? It was theme-oriented, ninja-style fighting, powerups were explained with not just exposition but actual panels. Kishimoto dedicated time and effort into shaping Naruto into where he is now, and I really think what made the story crash and burn, was the War Arc.

Simply put, Kishimoto overextended his efforts, didn't plan his story, but had editors and fans hounding him for continuation, and was unable to deliver with quality. He needed the kind of BANG all shounen series had, and it came in the form of unexplained final-villain Kaguya and asspull powerups explained away by genetics and destiny and reincarnation and whatnot.

I think it was a serious case of story-planning failure. Just imagine, though, if Kishimoto had more time, what an awesome arc the War could have become.

It started off good, and I'm sure it could've ended good as well.

Maybe more central characters should've been killed, for starters? I personally was plenty pissed-off with Neji's ill-explained death. Heck, even Tenzo survived the war, why couldn't the Hyūga genius survive it too?


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## Josephmsz (Aug 8, 2015)

Platypus said:


> So the villains are at fault for Naruto receiving power-ups on a silver platter, not the writer himself?




When he was fighting against Pain, he didn't receive any power ups, and he beat him. Madara was above his skill level, and he didn't have any time to just leave the battlefield and go train. Yes, I am blaming the villains AND the writer on his powerups. The villains are the indirect cause of them, and Kishi was the cause. He wouldn't have needed to get any powerups if they had sealed Madara earlier, but apparently out of nowhere, Madara can use Susanno with no eyes whatsoever. (Asspull)


I fully blame Kishi on Kakashis powerup though.


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## Shadowknux (Aug 15, 2015)

Like many manga before it, Naruto will primarily be remembered fondly for the 'Tournament Arc' portion of the story that established and developed multiple interesting characters and plotlines. Everything after that, eh.


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## Raiden (Aug 15, 2015)

Just watched new Boruto trailer and I got to see some gems from part two at the end. Can't believe that the series fell off as badly as it did.


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## Nathan Copeland (Aug 15, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Wut?  Kakashi din't raise sh*t.





kakashi was too busy being a sasuke fanboy

Jiraiya and Iruka raised Naruto


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## ben10pku (Aug 19, 2015)

You know what? One of the most hard thing to do for writer (such as mangaka) is to write ending that will satisfy all the readers. And one of the most refused the writer to do is to ask the reader what the ending will be.


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## PikaCheeka (Aug 19, 2015)

ben10pku said:


> You know what? One of the most hard thing to do for writer (such as mangaka) is to write ending that will satisfy all the readers. And one of the most refused the writer to do is to ask the reader what the ending will be.



It's impossible to write an ending that can please all readers in terms of pairings, but in terms of over-arching plot?

No. Don't make excuses for Kishi there. He fucked up the end of the war horrifically and threw the entire series under the bus with the alien soap opera stuff. 

Anyone who is only crying about the way the series ended because of ships ( not hard to identify these people, seeing as they're the ones who supported the series right up until chapter 700) didn't give a damn about the actual story. There's no point in trying to please people like that. Kishimoto did screw over those who truly cared about the storyline though, which makes most of us not want to waste time reading any new series by him.


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## ScottofFury (Aug 19, 2015)

Nathan Copeland said:


> kakashi was too busy being a sasuke fanboy
> 
> Jiraiya and Iruka raised Naruto



And Mr SteelSpine didn't get shit for it. Like he completely fell off the face of the earth for almost all the manga after the beginning 

God level writing, take notes


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## Addy (Aug 19, 2015)

why is this thread still up?


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## Tir (Aug 19, 2015)

I like Turrin and all but when he put the random power-ups and mentioned FT and Bleh as something better, I went Bleh...

When it comes to bullshit power up, look no further than FT. Three chapters of them getting thrashed and one panel of nakama power ended the villain. No explanation is needed as its nakama power! The way Mashima handles it is worse than Naruto. Still better than Rave tho.

As for Bleh, no character development at all. Ichigo is still the first chapter Ichigo, only difference is the power. From human, human+shinigami, human+shinigami+fullbringer, human+shinigami+fullbringer+quincy, human+shinigami+fullbringer+Quincy+alien. Well. that's all.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Aug 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> *INTRO*​When the Naruto story ended, I like many other readers felt disappointed and let down by the author, for various reason, but even still in many ways I acted as an apologist for the story. Like many others on this forum, I grew up with this story and discussed it almost religiously here on the forums; so when the story ultimately ended while I certainly voiced my discontent about it's flaws, there was still a part of me that made excuses for the story, such as, pushing all the blame onto the War-Arc and even more precisely the chapters surrounding the penultimate as well as final battles of the series. However after distancing myself from both the Naruto-Manga and largely the Naruto subsections of the forums for several months, i've come to the point where I can admit that this was not a fair assessment. It's not fair, because the disappoint I felt for how the manga ended, wasn't a product of simply a drop in quality for a certain amount of chapters, rather it was due to the story systematically contradicting and unraveling the fundamental theme that both established the story in Part I and captivated my interest in the series in the first place, and it is for that reason that I feel pretty confident in saying that the Naruto-Manga is both thee most disappointing piece of fiction as well as the worst written piece of fiction I've ever read in my entire life.



Read your assessment word for word, and I'm afraid your assessment of what manga should have been is outdated. Worst piece of fiction ever read........Yet strangely Naruto has a far, far better plot and character development than DBZ ever did, and DBZ is the BAR FRANCHISE WISE. But let's get to chopping your fable Mr. Turrin.

For starters I agree with your critique of the ENDING. It was RUSHED......RUSHED, RUSHED, RUSHED. Kaguya didn't bring to the table what Madara did. Forcing Kishi to expand on her leniage/existence via movie....But I'm afraid that's where your complaints ends as THIS....





> *
> "A dropout will beat a genius through hard work."​*



Has long been thrown out the window....Did you read the end of the manga?  Eight gate Guy  was allowed to match Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara for a hot minute, and that statement primarily applied to Guy's prodige, not Naruto.

Naruto was gifted with Kurama from the start, once renowned as the strongest entity in the Naruto verse. It was Sasuke who had to work, as his eyes aren't sentient, they cannot just give him chakara on the fly.

I suggest you reread VOE 1, again. Note: Sasuke needed CS2 and then some to keep up with a one tailed Naruto......WHO WOULD EVENTUALLY GAIN ACCESS TO A FULL BODY Kurama.

Turrin, Turrin, Turrin, despite your extended break you failed to acknowledge/take notice of the shift of the manga between part 1 and 2. Part 2 focus wasn't Naruto, it was largely Sasuke. And when Sasuke took a break, it became some other Uchiha. I would go on to rip your argument to shreds, but I'm trying to remain within the 12K limit.



> To me these words spoken by Lee, symbolize the heart and soul of this manga.


Too bad  Lee wasn't the heart and soul of this manga, it was the Uchiha, and Naruto was later development to match Sasuke's leniage in relevancy.



> From the readers first step into the Naruto-world the reader is exposed to this theme. The main protagonist is not an amazing fighter, not even for his age, in every sense he is average or even bellow average.


The main protagonist was gifted with one of the most powerful entities in this manga sealed in his belly from birth. I agree, Naruto may not be the most talented fighter in the manga, but when you can nuke a village on a whim, you don't have to be.

Perhaps you misunderstood Naruto's character as a whole.....Naruto talent isn't necessarally his fighting prowess, it's his ability to change people. And that theme has remained consistent from jump. Also you missed the part of the manga where Naruto breifly surpassed Sasuke, the genius, in part 1. After learning how to summon Gamabunta and execute the Rasengan. Case in point, Naruto was always destined for greatness. Kishi just placed more of an emphases on Sasuke's strengths opposed to Naruto's early on in the manga. But if you were to disect the manga as a whole it was Sasuke, the genius, playing catch up to Naruto for large portion of the manga. Shall we break Sasuke's power ups down? I promise you, he had to work much harder ti gain what was arguably gifted to Naruto from jump. FYI......Both CS and Susano'o were eventually utilized as Sasuke answer to Naruto having access to Kurama....




> In a genre such as shonen, where the Goku archetype, i.E. the genius from the jump, flooded the market, this less than speculatcular main protagonist is what made the story of Naruto stand out.


But Goku wasn't a genius from jump, or much of a genius at all.
If I recall, his power level at birth was deplorable.......And Kaioken, Super Saiyan, etc. etc. was all achieved through hard work. 

GOKU HAD SEVERAL TRAINING ARCS MR. TURRIN.


And by the conclusion of DBZ, Goku wasn't the most powerful Saiyan. It was Gohan, as he mystic form.




> It wasn't a tale about a genius basically achieving his birth right, it was an underdog story, where the protagonist struggles to utilize even the most basic skill, but through working himself nearly to death he is able to master a higher variation of that skill, which would latter come to define his entire fighting style. When Naruto competes against his rival Sasuke, it's this underline theme of the underdog having a chance to prove his efforts that adds emotional weight to their rivalry. When Naruto tells Neji that, _"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be!"_, it adds weight to his words. When we see Naruto defeat someone like Gaara, who had both metaphorically and realistically given in to his inner demon, instead of working hard to forge his own path, it adds weight to that accomplishment. And so on...


But once again Turrin, you failure to analyze the story has cost you.....

NARUTO WAS SET FROM THE START. Let me reiterate. NARUTO WAS SET FROM THE START.
You arbitrate Sasuke to be the genius, yet you overlook the fact that most his weapons ARE HAND ME DOWNS. 

Your argument. This idea you have isn't the main focus of the story at all. Naruto may have been an underdog at some points, but his feats/accomplishements contradict that status. Naruto's greatest gift is his abnormal chakara supply, one of his birth rights might I add. Combine with the fact that he possesses the second most powerful bijuu chakara wise, and him besting Garra isn't an example of an underdog beating a genius.(Garra possessed the weakest biju chakara wise)





> However as the story progressed, the message shifted to in essence the polar opposite. Hard-work and determination could not enable someone to beat a genius, instead they need freebie power ups from demons and otherworldly beings, as well as the most illustrious of lineages, and even more precisely destiny on their side to compete.


But Kurama was there from the start. It's what enabled Naruto to best Neji last I checked.

And Naruto's lineage doesn't quite add up to Sasuke's....So that argument is moot.
It's Kurama and friends that allowed Naruto to remain on the top tiers list. And despite how it was done; Naruto worked hard to befriend the bijuu's. Not sure on what destiny has to do with anything.

Your argument has no weight here because Naruto was BORN WITH KURAMA. It was Sasuke, the genius, that needed TO WORK HARD TO MATCH WHAT NARUTO WAS GIVEN AT BIRTH. Sasuke wasn't born with the sharingan, and it took him almost three hundred chapters to develop Susano'o from it rib cage variation to it's perfect stage.



> The protagonist was no longer the underdog, but instead a descendent of the greatest heroes to walk to verse and even beyond that the reincarnation of one of these great heroes brought to bare in the mortal world.


Once again, he was born with Kurama.



> Hard work was displaced, by super modes, that were obtained with relative ease, if not outright served up to the protagonist on a silver platter, by an ancient alien that would make Giorgio A.


Of course they were obtained with reletive ease, once Kurama became an ally. And would you say that was obtained with relevative ease? 500+ chapter would argue otherwise.

Look at the final fight of the story.......Itachi, Nagato, Madara, Kagura were all just templates for Sasuke arguably, as he had no way of matching Naruto priror to THE ABOVE SHOWING HIM HOW. Which essentially shits on your underdog thesis. 

Naruto obtained his power up with ease, as his templets Bee, Ashura weren't major characters within the story. Their full power was fleshed within there first major fight or single panel....
Suffice to say, you cannot argue his powers were obtained with ease. As Naruto has one of the most unique arsenal in the manga. Yes, it's based on simple concepts, but boy oh boy, due those concepts have depth.



> Tsoukalos cream his pants. So deeply did Kishimoto subvert this theme that it is even evident in the pairing subplots; the protagonist's efforts did not shine through enough to captivate the heart of his love interest, and instead she remained fixated on the genius. The heroins were more aptly rewarded for their efforts, but the actualization of their efforts was never brought to bare in the actual story; Naruto remained fixated on Sakura and Sasuke remained largely a-sexual, sans a single half-hearted apology and forehead poke.




Have you stop to think that maybe, just maybe, getting Sasuke was apart of Sakura story and not the other way around. I mean, Naruto eventually tamed Kurama. What was one of Sakura's part 1 goals?

The problem with this paragragh is that Sakura chose Sasuke, not the otherway around. Sasuke given his looks/etc. etc. could have hooked up with essentially any heroin in the manga, yet Sakura through persistancy was given the prize. But you do have a point here regarding Naruto's fixation on Sakura, but only slightly, as Naruto essentially gave up on Sakura prior meeting Sasuke for the second time in part 2. Also you seem to ignore Naruto the last, which spent almost the entire movie developing the relationship between Hinato and Naruto.



> Ultimately this resulted in battles that long promised to hold emotional weight and depth, coming of flat, monotone, and more than anything else just going through the motions.


I agree, but I'm confuse as to with battle you're referring too....As the only "lacking" battle was Kaguya and VOE part 2, and the later was forced.



> Naruto defeating the main antagonist no longer held the weight it was long intended to, of Naruto actualizing his goal of becoming Hokage despite his dropout nature, because by than he was no longer a drop out, he was like all the other Goku clones that came before him, simply achieving his legacy;


Once again, as my fav Vegita would say. Kakarot is a low class saiyan warrior. He was never destined to be anything.....(GOKU SIMPLY TRAINED HARD, ESPECIALLY IN THE AFTERLIFE; WHICH IS WHERE HE GAINED MOST OF HIS STRENGTH FROM)

And Naruto was a dropout, but so is Sasuke. Both of them were genin prior to the former becoming Hokage. 



> a legacy passed down to him via his father the previous Hokage and being the destined reincarnation of Ashura. In-fact the emotional weight of Naruto achieving the Hokage title was so undermined at that point, that when Kishimoto didn't even bother to show Naruto actually being crowned Hokage and wearing that mantel into battle, there was really no love loss for me, as the emotional weight was already long gone. I also found myself not caring, when Kishimoto only had Naruto achieve a symbolic and ultimately cop out style of victory over Sasuke, despite Naruto finally besting his rival being one of the most hyped and built up moments in the entire series, because that weight was again long gone.


But Naruto becoming Hokage was given.....Like Sasuke becoming the "ONLY HOPE" for the Uchiha clan was given.

Remember in part 1, where all of team 7 shared their desires/goals......Note: Kishi actually had them achieve it.

And Naruto was never going to best Sasuke in anything but a symbolic victory, as POWER/FIGHTING is primarally what Sasuke brings to the table.

Rather than DBZ.....Think Inuyasha.....Sesshomaru, who now has more in common with Sasuke than just the cold, distant attitude(referring to the one arm)

As featured as Sesshomaru is in the story of Inuyasha, he's hardly seen outside of a fight scene. Same with Sasuke, or at least the current one. His most interesting aspect is his power, and outside of battle he hardly fits in with the traditional cast. Suffice to say, he's Itachi's younger brother. How many times was Itachi made too look bad in battle? You do know that the Sasuke at the end of the manga was sipping the Itachi koolaid quite heavily, right? It's only gotten worse with his adult variation.(Atleast Madara had a sense of humor)



> *Conclusion*​In closing, while there are many elements within the Naruto manga that came as disappointments to me, such as manga shifting it's combat style away from the more ninja type battles of Part I and early Part II to DBZ style fighting, numerous plot-holes, and a myriad of weak character narratives [Obito, Madara, etc...) as well as overarching plot narratives [Juubi, God-Tree, etc..], I could have forgiven these things and still found some degree of satisfaction with the story, however the subversion of what I feel is the heart and soul of the story, is something that I find unforgivable. Furthermore, I can not recall a single story that has metapohorically so systematically and throughly ripped it's own heart out to such a degree as the Naruto-manga, and it is for that reason, that I make this thread and feel completely comfortable saying that, the Naruto-manga is thee worst piece of fiction I've ever read.


The shifting of battles from small scale skirmishes to large scale fire works occurs in every DRAWN OUT MANGA. 

They're are very few manga's that remain small in scale throughout it's life span. Kenshin, Samurai champloo, Cowboy bebop are the only main stream manga's I can think that remain true to it's original formula. I would throw in claymore, but super regeneration became the Achiles Heel of that manga.

And I'm afraid you misunderstood the story. The story of Naruto was primarally about the Uchiha clan in part 1 and especially in part 2. They're characters and background dominated much of the story to the point where Naruto's character was forced to follow suite to keep up. Kaguya and the God tree were forced idea's which in the grand skeem of things, has because an excellent source of material to expand the Naruto story beyond the manga.



> ----------
> 
> Let me know your thoughts, do you agree with my reasoning, or for you was there another theme that Kishimoto ether honored or destroy'd that stuck out to you more as the heart of the story, and makes you ether feel the same way or better about the manga as a whole.


Ultimately the story comes down to the characters themselves. Essentially speaking. If you're not a fan of one of the Uchiha big wigs or Naruto, then Kishi essentially let you down at some point. 

As a Naruto fan, I understand your fustration. But I believe your fustration lies in what Sasuke manage to achieve oppossed to Naruto's accomplishements. In the end Naruto was proven to be stronger than Sasuke, nor did he get his first love interest.

I also wholeheartidly believe that being an active member of this board has also skewered your opinion, as Naruto topics, without Sasuke, hardly got any attention. Ultamtely the problem with Naruto is that despite the titlte, it's the Uchiha that move the plot. Ultimately forcing Naruto to adjust.

*Disclaimer*​In this thread, I was particularly harsh on the Naruto-manga, but I'm speaking about the overall story from a narrative standpoint. There are still things I very much enjoy about the manga, when looking at them in a vacuum away from the narrative, such as the creativity illustrated in forming the world, characters, and abilities.[/QUOTE]
But you hardly discussed the narative. Instead you opted to focus on minor details that grew outdated YEARS AGO.

Anywho, the manga wasn't about a drop out best a genius. Naruto story in this UCHIHA DOMINATED MANGA, is and will always be his influence. Which is seen throughout the manga. How many people has he changed? You arbitrate that his position as Hokage was destined on the account of Minato being his father, but I'd argue against that. Naruto has more than enough merits to warrant him having his face on the mountain, he is dubbed the HERO OF THE WAR. Despite Sasuke playing a major role in set war.(Assisted in ending edo tensei, defeating Obito, fighting Madara, defeating Kaguya, etc. etc.)

I can't help but think you did this all for attention as Naruto is a millions times better than DBZ ever was, and DBZ was defined by it's anime not it's manga counterpart. The depth of Naruto's characters rival those in Yu Yu Hakusho, and that saying allot.(Although I still like Yu Yu Hakusho villains overall)

I think you expecting too much from a 700+ chapter story, as the things you point out are hardly relevant the second half of the manga. Naruto was able to match Sasuke for most of the manga, even surpassing him on quite a few occasions.


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## Divinstrosity (Aug 19, 2015)

I'll be honest...

...there is very little I liked about part 2. Part 1 was great. Part 2 was tolerable, only because I was hooked because of part 1. I kicked my Naruto habit during the War arc - but by then, it was too late. I had wasted years of my life hoping for the story to return to the quality of part 1, and in my opinion, it never did. 

I was one of the biggest Itachi fans on this forum. I hate how Itachi turned out in part 2. Just poor-writing, in my opinion. 

Most of part 2 was average, at best. A few moments of brilliance here, but overall not comparable to part 1.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 20, 2015)

Divinstrosity said:


> I'll be honest...
> 
> ...there is very little I liked about part 2. Part 1 was great. Part 2 was tolerable, only because I was hooked because of part 1. I kicked my Naruto habit during the War arc - but by then, it was too late. I had wasted years of my life hoping for the story to return to the quality of part 1, and in my opinion, it never did.
> 
> ...



Are  you disappointed in part 2  Itachi due to him changing from badass villain into a martyr or due to his over reliance on Susanoo and MS in general in contrast to his show of skill in his first appearance?


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## Yugito5342 (Aug 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> *INTRO*​When the Naruto story ended, I like many other readers felt disappointed and let down by the author, for various reason, but even still in many ways I acted as an apologist for the story. Like many others on this forum, I grew up with this story and discussed it almost religiously here on the forums; so when the story ultimately ended while I certainly voiced my discontent about it's flaws, there was still a part of me that made excuses for the story, such as, pushing all the blame onto the War-Arc and even more precisely the chapters surrounding the penultimate as well as final battles of the series. However after distancing myself from both the Naruto-Manga and largely the Naruto subsections of the forums for several months, i've come to the point where I can admit that this was not a fair assessment. It's not fair, because the disappoint I felt for how the manga ended, wasn't a product of simply a drop in quality for a certain amount of chapters, rather it was due to the story systematically contradicting and unraveling the fundamental theme that both established the story in Part I and captivated my interest in the series in the first place, and it is for that reason that I feel pretty confident in saying that the Naruto-Manga is both thee most disappointing piece of fiction as well as the worst written piece of fiction I've ever read in my entire life.
> 
> "A dropout will beat a genius through hard work."​
> To me these words spoken by Lee, symbolize the heart and soul of this manga. From the readers first step into the Naruto-world the reader is exposed to this theme. The main protagonist is not an amazing fighter, not even for his age, in every sense he is average or even bellow average. In a genre such as shonen, where the Goku archetype, i.E. the genius from the jump, flooded the market, this less than speculatcular main protagonist is what made the story of Naruto stand out. It wasn't a tale about a genius basically achieving his birth right, it was an underdog story, where the protagonist struggles to utilize even the most basic skill, but through working himself nearly to death he is able to master a higher variation of that skill, which would latter come to define his entire fighting style. When Naruto competes against his rival Sasuke, it's this underline theme of the underdog having a chance to prove his efforts that adds emotional weight to their rivalry. When Naruto tells Neji that, _"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be!"_, it adds weight to his words. When we see Naruto defeat someone like Gaara, who had both metaphorically and realistically given in to his inner demon, instead of working hard to forge his own path, it adds weight to that accomplishment. And so on...
> ...



Wow something to think about.

Always appreciate someone doing this but sometimes I do feel like a lot of miss opportunities are not there... and otherwise replace with useless fillers and left us hanging. 
A lot of things are place unexplained, and skipped.


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## Reznor (Aug 20, 2015)

Man, this thread is staying alive.


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## Divinstrosity (Aug 20, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Are  you disappointed in part 2  Itachi due to him changing from badass villain into a martyr or due to his over reliance on Susanoo and MS in general in contrast to his show of skill in his first appearance?



The revealing of him being a 'good guy' wouldn't have been so bad if it was done more 'cleanly'. It was not written well, at all. Some people say it was obvious. Some people say it was written well. I disagree.

But, yeah ... I didn't like the MS/Susanoo spam. But, knowing Kishimoto's obsession with doujutsu, in hindsight, I was a fool for expecting anything more than I got. Hell, I wanted to know what Itachi was going to be used for in the War Arc. It was implied he had the ability to use large scale genjutsu by Shikaku. If he was being kept back, with Nagato, to be used as trump cards - we know Madara was his ultimate trump - but they were being kept back for something-  ... then it would have been very interesting to see what else he could do. Nothing doing. 

Ugh. This is not a good trip down memory lane.


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## HunterxH (Aug 20, 2015)

I registered an account just to say that I agree with the OP 100% and I would take what he said one step further.

Naruto is perhaps one of the worst shounen protagonists ever made.

I think that's what kills the show for me. Naruto himself. 

Everyone knows that one of the main themes of the story was "hard work" and "never giving up." That can't be disputed and I have seen people on previous pages attempt to do so but they've only made themselves look retarded.

So he was supposed to have been a lonely, hyper-active knucklehead or didn't know the true meaning of being a shinobi, yet he was supposed to have had everyone acknowledge him through hard-work and determination? That all went out the window from the very beginning.

Born with an immense power? Check

Offspring of one of the greatest shinobi ever? Check

Trained by one of the strongest shinobi that ever lived? Check

those three are some of the biggest cliches in all of fiction and usually a character gets one of those, not all three. He has Kyuubi from birth, is the son of the legendary Yondaime, and he gets trained by the person who trained the Yondaime himself, Jiraiya. 

And he's just so *yawn* boring. Such a boring character. Kage Bushin. Kyuubi. Summon. Rasengan variations. Over and over and over. No Suiton Wind Bullets or anything like that, no stealthy clothing or camo or real assassination/sabotage/real ninja missions for him either. He was a prankster, and he did have flashes of brilliance (when he transformed himself into the windmill shuriken to deceive zabuza was his crowning achievement in all of the story) but other than that, lol.

He never learned real ninjutsu, he never became proficient at taijutsu (everyone being able to man-handle his clones became something of a reoccurring joke) he had the most asspull fights (he farted to beat kiba, and not on purpose either. asspull hole-digging shyrouken insta-win against neji, full-kyuubi god-mode/rasengan @ pein) 

Now the real main character should have been Kakashi. We should have followed his life from start to finish. Imagine following his story and being attached to characters such as the jokesy, gusty, hyper-active yet determined Uchiha Obito, the caring, maternal, nurturing nature of Rin Nohara, and the talented, kind, and wise beyond his years teacher of Minato Namikaze. FIrst you would witness a young shinobi of prodigious talent vow to protect his friends, until one night his father comitted suicide and it would forever change him. 

Then after the deaths of Obito and Rin, as well as the death of Minato, you could witness how he felt truly alone. But then Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura came into his life, and they would become his new family again. 

Kakashi had the most interesting and fleshed out backstory out of any character (that's the only thing i can truly give kishi credit for) but it's wasted because he's just a back-up dancer to one of the all-time worst anime protagonists to have ever existed.

That's what naruto the character, and naruto the show is.

A waste.

A waste of time, waste of investment, just everything was such a waste. No traveling to different villages and learning their cultures, no real shinobi missions, just a waste. 

The show should have been about a character that was actually interesting and worth it. Imagine a show centered around Kakashi's time as a kid, then during the Third Shinobi War, then as ANBU, then finally finding closure in his life with Team 7, in a short action-packed anime epic that was around 100 episodes or so. That would have been something to write home about.

What a waste.


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## Kishido (Aug 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> *INTRO*​When the Naruto story ended, I like many other readers felt disappointed and let down by the author, for various reason, but even still in many ways I acted as an apologist for the story. Like many others on this forum, I grew up with this story and discussed it almost religiously here on the forums; so when the story ultimately ended while I certainly voiced my discontent about it's flaws, there was still a part of me that made excuses for the story, such as, pushing all the blame onto the War-Arc and even more precisely the chapters surrounding the penultimate as well as final battles of the series. However after distancing myself from both the Naruto-Manga and largely the Naruto subsections of the forums for several months, i've come to the point where I can admit that this was not a fair assessment. It's not fair, because the disappoint I felt for how the manga ended, wasn't a product of simply a drop in quality for a certain amount of chapters, rather it was due to the story systematically contradicting and unraveling the fundamental theme that both established the story in Part I and captivated my interest in the series in the first place, and it is for that reason that I feel pretty confident in saying that the Naruto-Manga is both thee most disappointing piece of fiction as well as the worst written piece of fiction I've ever read in my entire life.
> 
> "A dropout will beat a genius through hard work."​
> To me these words spoken by Lee, symbolize the heart and soul of this manga. From the readers first step into the Naruto-world the reader is exposed to this theme. The main protagonist is not an amazing fighter, not even for his age, in every sense he is average or even bellow average. In a genre such as shonen, where the Goku archetype, i.E. the genius from the jump, flooded the market, this less than speculatcular main protagonist is what made the story of Naruto stand out. It wasn't a tale about a genius basically achieving his birth right, it was an underdog story, where the protagonist struggles to utilize even the most basic skill, but through working himself nearly to death he is able to master a higher variation of that skill, which would latter come to define his entire fighting style. When Naruto competes against his rival Sasuke, it's this underline theme of the underdog having a chance to prove his efforts that adds emotional weight to their rivalry. When Naruto tells Neji that, _"If you don't like your destiny, don't accept it. Instead, have the courage to change it the way you want it to be!"_, it adds weight to his words. When we see Naruto defeat someone like Gaara, who had both metaphorically and realistically given in to his inner demon, instead of working hard to forge his own path, it adds weight to that accomplishment. And so on...
> ...





+rep cuz I agree completely


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## Epyon (Aug 21, 2015)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> But Goku wasn't a genius from jump, or much of a genius at all.
> If I recall, his power level at birth was deplorable.......And Kaioken, Super Saiyan, etc. etc. was all achieved through hard work.
> 
> GOKU HAD SEVERAL TRAINING ARCS MR. TURRIN.
> ...



Goku's journey did not start with DBZ. the low-class Saiyan thing was introduced in the middle of the story and Goku stayed the main character long after the low-class stopped mattering in literally anyone's mind save Vegeta. 

In this DBZ and Naruto are not comparable, Naruto trying to overcome his status as deadbeat loser (whether by becoming Hokage or being acknowledged/defeating Sasuke) is the goal of manga for the start, with DBZ the class thing it's just Vegeta's character arc.


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Aug 21, 2015)

And the whole thing falls apart when you realize that Naruto's Will of Never Giving Up was his Nindo. Salt as much as you want Naruto breaks down walls and never falters, he could have quit at anytime but didn't. 

You people act like the moment Naruto gets strong he didn't deserve that power, because he's no longer the underdog anymore. Well news flash, people stay strong as long as they have a powerful will to finish through. 

You guys overreact when Naruto gets a powerup by Hagoromo saying, "It ruins his whole life's work hard ethic!". Tell me how are you going to take a threat like the Immortal Juubi/Kaguya seriously if Naruto can't use the only seal that can stop her.

You do realize that Hagoromo can not just give anybody that powerup, unless they met the requirements the Yang-Seal has for the user. To be a hard worker and the Guts to Never Give Up. 

Everyones a certified critic it seems...


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## Epyon (Aug 22, 2015)

TehDarkDarkOfPerdition said:


> And the whole thing falls apart when you realize that Naruto's Will of Never Giving Up was his Nindo. Salt as much as you want Naruto breaks down walls and never falters, he could have quit at anytime but didn't.
> 
> You people act like the moment Naruto gets strong he didn't deserve that power, because he's no longer the underdog anymore. Well news flash, people stay strong as long as they have a powerful will to finish through.
> 
> ...


 
The problem isn't that he got strong. The problem is that he actually always was objectively the strongest, from the day he was born this was decided for him and it's up to Neji and Sasuke and Orochimaru to work hard and be inventive just to keep up with the kid who lucked into having a being of infinite chakra at his disposal.


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## Perception (Aug 22, 2015)

Naruto pretty much 90% of the time had to train hard to achieve his power. I don't know why some are ignoring the course of events of his training/hardwork throughout the entire manga.


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## Epyon (Aug 22, 2015)

Perception said:


> Naruto pretty much 90% of the time had to train hard to achieve his power. I don't know why some are ignoring the course of events of his training/hardwork throughout the entire manga.



He beat Kiba through a fart, he beat Haku and Neji because he got angry and accessed the awesome power he has training or not, ditto Sasuke as well as his scrap with Deidara and Orochimaru. He had to work hard to beat Gaara and Kakuzu, I'll give him that but most of the time the training and hard work doesn't matter cause he has a foolproof safety cussion in case he gets in danger.


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## Perception (Aug 22, 2015)

Epyon said:


> He beat Kiba through a fart, he beat Haku and Neji because he got angry and accessed the awesome power he has training or not, ditto Sasuke as well as his scrap with Deidara and Orochimaru. He had to work hard to beat Gaara and Kakuzu, I'll give him that but most of the time the training and hard work doesn't matter cause he has a foolproof safety cussion in case he gets in danger.



Yeah but in the fights you mentioned it's not like he wasn't against kekkei genkai who had a inherit advantage ever since birth as well. Having the kyuubi doesn't mean much if you can't tame it and learn to control it, which  he had to work hard to harness it's power. Most of his jutsu in his arsenal came form training  and they were all relevant in defeating his major opponents. SM, kyuubi, shadownclone, rasengan and it's variations, rasen shuiken- nautre transformation, summoning, chakra control.


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## FrozenFeathers (Aug 22, 2015)

Let me recommend something.

Read God of High School.

THE FEMALE CHARACTER IS ACTUALLY GOOD.


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## Epyon (Aug 22, 2015)

Perception said:


> Yeah but in the fights you mentioned it's not like he wasn't against kekkei genkai who had a inherit advantage ever since birth as well. Having the kyuubi doesn't mean much if you can't tame it and learn to control it,



He didn't tame it or control it against Haku and it mattered a great deal. It destroyed his opponent. Same with Deidara and Orochimaru. Any fight he has _could _just be had. Naruto is SO good that he has luxury to choose how he'll win based on what he thinks it fairer but that hardly changes the fact that the underdog status he supposedly has compared to Sasuke and co is demolished in Chapter 1, yet we have to hear about ever afterward.


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## Perception (Aug 22, 2015)

Epyon said:


> He didn't tame it or control it against Haku and it mattered a great deal. It destroyed his opponent. Same with Deidara and Orochimaru. Any fight he has _could _just be had. Naruto is SO good that he has luxury to choose how he'll win based on what he thinks it fairer but that hardly changes the fact that the underdog status he supposedly has compared to Sasuke and co is demolished in Chapter 1, yet we have to hear about ever afterward.



I'm pretty sure using the kyuubi doesn't guarantee him a win in every scenario. Against Deidara the kyuubi literally had no influence in that fight since Kakashi suppressed the chakra in, not to mention Deidara was injured from the fight against Gaara. And he was fighting a non full powered orochimaru whom was toying with Naruto. The kyuubi actually didn't have much influence in the outcome of his fights until he managed to control it. It was emphasized in the manga in fact that he worked hard to not rely on it.The underdog status was bounced in the manga between the two characters. Even tho they both had 'special' powers, neither of them would be near as powerful without working hard and would have been killed at early points in the manga.


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## Epyon (Aug 22, 2015)

Perception said:


> I'm pretty sure using the kyuubi doesn't guarantee him a win in every scenario. Against Deidara the kyuubi literally had no influence in that fight since Kakashi



Kakashi stepping in doesn't change that he was dominating Deidara without training or control. 



> suppressed the chakra in, not to mention Deidara was injured from the fight against Gaara. And he was fighting a non full powered orochimaru whom was toying with Naruto. The kyuubi actually didn't have much influence in the outcome of his fights until he managed to control it.



That's heavily misrepresenting it and you know it, It had much influence in his fight with Haku, Orochimaru put a seal on it in the Forest of Death, then Jiraiya trained him after removing said seal. Doesn't mean Neji wouldn't have been effed if he had unleashed the Kyuubi on him.


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## Perception (Aug 22, 2015)

Epyon said:


> Kakashi stepping in doesn't change that he was dominating Deidara without training or control.
> 
> 
> 
> That's heavily misrepresenting it and you know it, It had much influence in his fight with Haku, Orochimaru put a seal on it in the Forest of Death, then Jiraiya trained him after removing said seal. Doesn't mean Neji wouldn't have been effed if he had unleashed the Kyuubi on him.



If you reread the fight you'll see that he was dominating without the kyuubi chakra. His eyes only took the shape of kurama however it was his own skill that played the role in the fight. Deidara was forced into hiding before the cloak came out, since he used both his clones and Rasengan to defeat Deidaras clone. After the cloak was suppressed Deidara decided to escape since he knew Sasori was defeated and he was in no condition to fight as he was presumably low on chakra and had only one arm. If you think that fight was decided by the kyuubi factor you're incorrect since in no world does Deidara take both Naruto and Kakashi with or without the kyuubi. 

I agree that it influenced his fight against Haku but there's nothing wrong with that. Ever since the beginning of the manga we knew that Naruto would eventually use the power but in no way was it a free escape goat from situations.And also it was Nejis byakugan which allowed him to block Narutos chakra which is a gift from birth. Both had hidden powers yet the one who worked harder won the fight since Naruto outsmarted him in the end.


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## HunterxH (Aug 22, 2015)

Perception you're way off base.

First I want to say that we're gonna drop the "Naruto vs Deidara" "battle", because it wasn't even a real fight and discussing it is insignificant.

Secondly, Naruto did not beat Neji because of "hard work". He literally won because of Kyuubi. The Kyuubi is so powerful that it's strength defies all imagination. After Neji used the 64 palms and Naruto began to channel the Kyuubi's power, Neji was frightened when Naruto's chakra took the form of the fox. 

Naruto vs Gaara is perhaps the only time I will condone the use of the Kyuubi because that battle was Bjuu vs Bjuu. None of the other rookies really stood a chance against Gaara in that mode save Naruto with the help of Kyuubi's chakra. 

Another thing to note however, is that Jiraiya was able to teach Naruto the summoning technique because of the fact that Naruto's chakra reserves were extremely large in due part to Kyuubi's chakra. That's why he made Naruto expend all of his chakra and then flung him off a cliff. In high pressure situations in which Naruto has also run out of his own chakra, the Kyuubi will deus ex machina him. 

The only technique that Naruto learned through his own merit was the Rasengan. And despite me not being very fond of the character, I did like how he used a Kage Bushin to aid him in forming the Rasengan since he knew that he couldn't do it on his own, that was very imaginative. Unfortunately I have to say in the same breath that it being his "only" real technique as well as variations of it makes him an awfully boring and predictable character.


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## Bender (Aug 22, 2015)

Good lord can we trash this thread. Numerous bloody holes have been punched in the OP's flawed as fuck argument.


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## Perception (Aug 22, 2015)

HunterxH said:


> Perception you're way off base.
> 
> First I want to say that we're gonna drop the "Naruto vs Deidara" "battle", because it wasn't even a real fight and discussing it is insignificant.
> 
> ...



Sure.

Umm I suggest you to reread the Neji fight and you'll see how he outsmarted Neji in the end of the fight with his clone. The Kyuubi chakra just allowed him to regain the chakra he lost against Nejis byakugan. Naruto literally mentioned how he failed the graduation exam 3 times because he couldn't use the clone jutsu, yet through training and hardwork he managed to master it and it was one of the deciding factors in defeating Neji. Are you ignoring the fact that the kyuubi chakra didn't win him the fight but help even it out so that the fight was fair? If Neji didn't have byakugan, base Naruto would have defeated him.

Of course, but once again without him working hard to master the summoning and shit he wouldn't have won. Where as Gaara whom presumably barely trains, yet has an OP power lost.

Jiraiya also mentioned he should to train to release that chakra effectively. And you're still ignoring all the training Naruto did to learn the summoning. 

The ONLY fight that comes to mind where he won completely based on the kyuubis help was the fight against Haku. In every other fight mentioned the kyuubi chakra doesn't give him an auto win. On another point, the kyuubi inhibited Narutos growth early on due to the fact that he grew up without parents and was shut down by everyone. He most likely would have been more formidable had  Minato been alive and  helping him out.


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## Epyon (Aug 22, 2015)

Perception said:


> yet through training and hardwork he managed to master it



He stole a scroll and read it, and then immeadiately defeated a chuunin using the technique. You can call that hard work if you like, but it is NOT training.


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## Platypus (Aug 22, 2015)

Epyon said:


> He stole a scroll and read it, and then immeadiately defeated a chuunin using the technique. You can call that hard work if you like, but it is NOT training.



You say that as if he instantly learned to perform it just by reading the scroll 


*Spoiler*: __


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## Jeαnne (Aug 23, 2015)

you know... after reading the OP again, i think i figured out the big problem here... the arguments would have been valid if the rival was made to never come to the side of the main hero. Then it would make sense to think that Naruto would win the girl and get a clean win over Sasuke during the final fight... it would be the classic "asshole rival jumps in and makes fun of the protagonist for the whole story so that we can let all our frustration out when the protagonist finally humilliates him for everything and gets the girl as a reward".

from the moment that Naruto's objective has become save Sasuke, bring him to his side, it was not about their rivalry anymore, but their friendship, and this is why all the things in the rival plane where forgotten in other to give true value to the protagonist's new goal. Its kind of a sacrifice that Naruto's character went through to have Sasuke back in a way that was rewarding to his character after everything that went on.

i guess its all about which perspective you choose to follow, because while it didnt make sense when we think about the protagonist and his rival, it did make a lot of sense when we think about the protagonist trying to bring his friend back. In this case, it was always going to be the opposite, like i discussed many times here.

Taking into account the parameters that Kishi set to make Sasuke who he was(rule by power, indra, etc), it would never make sense to have Naruto overpowering him alone in order to bring him back(it would confirm Indra's way), and it would never make sense to have the girl who loved Sasuke giving up on him to stay with the protagonist if he was supposed to be saved.


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## Tarot (Aug 23, 2015)

My earlier trolling aside, I never understood the whole "Kishi undermined the underdog theme by making Naruto special." complaint. Naruto was always special from the first chapter. He had a powerful demon fox sealed in him, and it was bloody obvious that he was the son of the 4th Hokage. Regardless of whatever potential he has, all the potential in the world doesn't guarantee a thing. Naruto still struggled to be as good as everyone and had to work hard to achieve how strong he got.


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## Divinstrosity (Aug 23, 2015)

Death Arcana said:


> My earlier trolling aside, I never understood the whole "Kishi undermined the underdog theme by making Naruto special." complaint. Naruto was always special from the first chapter. He had a powerful demon fox sealed in him, and it was bloody obvious that he was the son of the 4th Hokage. Regardless of whatever potential he has, all the potential in the world doesn't guarantee a thing. Naruto still struggled to be as good as everyone and had to work hard to achieve how strong he got.



So the underdog theme was a red herring used until Kishimoto was ready to reveal Naruto's pedigree?

The genius vs hardworker theme involved more than Naruto. 

Part 1 led us to believe that, at the very least, hardworkers would eventually be able to equal geniuses. I actually recall Kishimoto said in an earlier interview that he related to Naruto, because he wasn't talented, and had to try hard. 

Thats to say NOTHING of all the fans who found Naruto endearing and relatable because of his underdog status. 

I cannot say their weren't clues, but similar to my issues with the Itachi reveal...

...Kishimoto seems to go to the extreme trying to convince us a character is one way, then later reveal that is not the case. Well, Kishimoto ... there is a line that you can cross that basically pigeon holes your characters forever.  

You cay say, 'Well, what was he supposed to do??" Well, poor writers write poor plot twists. If he was an excellent writer, the plot twists would have been gotten more "AAAAAAH!" rather than "  " .


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## Epyon (Aug 23, 2015)

Jeαnne said:


> you know... after reading the OP again, i think i figured out the big problem here... the arguments would have been valid if the rival was made to never come to the side of the main hero. Then it would make sense to think that Naruto would win the girl and get a clean win over Sasuke during the final fight... it would be the classic "asshole rival jumps in and makes fun of the protagonist for the whole story so that we can let all our frustration out when the protagonist finally humilliates him for everything and gets the girl as a reward".
> 
> from the moment that Naruto's objective has become save Sasuke, bring him to his side, it was not about their rivalry anymore, but their friendship, and this is why all the things in the rival plane where forgotten in other to give true value to the protagonist's new goal. Its kind of a sacrifice that Naruto's character went through to have Sasuke back in a way that was rewarding to his character after everything that went on.
> 
> ...



So Sakura is a slave to the themes of the story and Naruto's character arc and must get laid by Sasuke no matter how evil he becomes, or how many times he attacks her, disregards her feelings or outright states he does not feel the same way about her because otherwise the redemption is not complete?

As for Naruto and Sasuke's friendship, it only existed after they became Team 7. Trying to make it so that them exchanging significant looks when they were 6/7 means they were always each others closest friends is one of the reasons Part 2 sucked.



Death Arcana said:


> My earlier trolling aside, I never understood the whole "Kishi undermined the underdog theme by making Naruto special." complaint. Naruto was always special from the first chapter. He had a powerful demon fox sealed in him, and it was bloody obvious that he was the son of the 4th Hokage. Regardless of whatever potential he has, all the potential in the world doesn't guarantee a thing. Naruto still struggled to be as good as everyone and had to work hard to achieve how strong he got.



Saying he doesn't have guarantees, and that he still has to work hard like the rest is one thing. Thinking it still makes him the underdog, as in, less likely to succeed then rest, in need of more hard work then the rest, is a different story.


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## Arthas (Aug 23, 2015)

Just popping in to say this:

*The Genius Versus Hardworker Theme was NEVER NARUTO'S THEME!*

It was Rock Lee's ( a side character's) theme.

It was never Naruto the character's theme and never Naruto the manga's main theme.

I can understand people liking the theme, I can understand people  wishing the theme was a main part of the manga but I can't understand *why people think the theme was a main part of the manga.*

Practically as soon as the whole hard work theme was introduced it we had examples counter to it: Gaara beating Rock Lee and Naruto beating Neji. If it was Naruto's theme then Naruto would have beaten Neji purely through Hard Work rather then relying on the Kyuubi to save him. 

If it had been Naruto's theme, then Naruto would have fought against Sasuke purely on hard work without needing to go berzerker mode with the Kyuubi. 

You can argue that Naruto needed it against CS or Sharingan but the fact is those thing fit Sasuke as the Genius/Heritage/Talented character. Naruto going KN0 *DID NOT fit the Hardworking Character.*

If it had been Naruto the manga's theme then Rock Lee would have  beaten Gaara and/or would not need to be called a Genius of Drunken fist  to fight against Kimmimaro.There are a lot of flaws in the Naruto (the Manga) but saying you don't like it because a theme was not demonstrated when it was never the main character's theme is a bit nonsensical.


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## LesExit (Aug 23, 2015)

Nah I think Naruto totally fit the hardwork/underdog character theme. Just look at Hinata's speech to him:

Hinata's opinion of Naruto is one I completely agreed with and liked. Naruto was a character who was always failing and struggling but regardless of that he would always get back up. It's a testament to hardwork and willpower I think. He did have a special background and the kyuubi, but I always thought he was still portrayed as not giving up on improving. What didn't sit right with me was the prophecy...it went too far with the whole "special" thing  "lol of course you're great, you're _destined_ to be". It's a shounen manga though, so it's not like it's surprising. 

His _potential_ was always much higher than that of people like Neji. Which kind of upsets me, I wish the power levels weren't so ridiculous....
Maybe then we'd actually see more teamwork between the rookies, but probably not :33


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## Raiden (Aug 23, 2015)

TehDarkDarkOfPerdition said:


> You guys overreact when Naruto gets a powerup by Hagoromo saying, "It ruins his whole life's work hard ethic!". Tell me how are you going to take a threat like the Immortal Juubi/Kaguya seriously if Naruto can't use the only seal that can stop her.



Right- I think the intent of the mangaka was to say that the guy who works hard is the only one who could muster the strength do take advantage of the things that he did. It just doesn't come across that way though. One problem we have on this forum is positionality. What is true for Rock Lee may not have been intended for others.


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## Divinstrosity (Aug 23, 2015)

It was never stated outright to be Naruto's theme. However, when Naruto is portrayed as a loser, who has a rival that's considered to be a genius, and a  doubter who tells him that he can't change fate, no matter how hard he tries ... who is ALSO a genius ...

...what impression are we supposed to get?

There was major inconsistency in Naruto's portrayal. One minute he can learn advanced techniques in almost no time, and another he struggles with bunshin no jutsu? Really? However, what undermined it all, was the issue he had with Neji saying fate can't be changed no matter how hard you try...

...then you have Naruto turning out to be some messianic character, whose coming was prophesied. He proved Neji right. Neji just didn't know he was right at the time. 






Arthas said:


> Just popping in to say this:
> 
> *The Genius Versus Hardworker Theme was NEVER NARUTO'S THEME!*
> 
> ...


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## ATastyMuffin (Aug 23, 2015)

Whenever I read Turrin's posts I'm reminded of ForneverWorld.


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2015)

This thread's ability to stay alive is very impressive


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## tkpirate (Aug 23, 2015)

> Nah I think Naruto totally fit the hardwork/underdog character theme. Just look at Hinata's speech to him:
> Hinata's opinion of Naruto is one I completely agreed with and liked. Naruto was a character who was always failing and struggling but regardless of that he would always get back up. It's a testament to hardwork and willpower I think. He did have a special background and the kyuubi, but I always thought he was still portrayed as not giving up on improving.



I think it's more related to the other main theme of the series,of never giving up.


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## Arthas (Aug 23, 2015)

Divinstrosity said:


> It was never stated outright to be Naruto's theme. However, when Naruto is portrayed as a loser, who has a rival that's considered to be a genius, and a  doubter who tells him that he can't change fate, no matter how hard he tries ... who is ALSO a genius ...
> 
> ...what impression are we supposed to get?
> 
> There was major inconsistency in Naruto's portrayal. One minute he can learn advanced techniques in almost no time, and another he struggles with bunshin no jutsu?



Originally (and for the majority of the manga) the reason why Naruto was having problems learning was for two reasons:

1) Kyuubi messing up his chakra (Jutsu which required low amount of chakra like Bunshin no jutsu were especially difficult for Naruto to learn.)

2) Naruto being more of a hands on learner then an academic learner (i.e he learns better by trying the act himself then by studying it)/

Which explained why once Naruto mastered the Kyuubi and got his chakra control up to a decent standard he was able to learn much much faster like the genius he was.

However I fully admit Kishi shot himself in the foot when Naruto met the So6P and he claimed Naruto was not a genius like his parents....  

That being said, it does not shake my fundemental point:

Naruto was an underdog for most of Part 1 but that did not mean the Hard work versus Genius theme applied to him.

Take a look at his P1 battles:

Haku: Naruto won because of Kyuubi.
Oro's snake in Forest of Death: Kyuubi.
Kiba: His own power (although he did get lucky a bit with the fart).
Neji: Would have lost without Kyuubi.
Gaara: Kyuubi usage major.
Kabuto: Learnt Rasengan and managed to use it against Kabuto on his own.
Sasuke: VotE fought using Kyuubi.

Except against Kiba and Kabuto, the Kyuubi played a MAJOR role in all his fights. I am not bashing the character here but that does seem to disqualify him from the pure hard worker standard that most people seem to want to apply to him. 



> Really? However, what undermined it all, was the issue he had with Neji saying fate can't be changed no matter how hard you try...
> 
> ...then you have Naruto turning out to be some messianic character, whose coming was prophesied. He proved Neji right. Neji just didn't know he was right at the time.



Agree on the whole fate part which is a seperate issue then the whole hardworker part.


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## Cord (Aug 23, 2015)

Addy said:


> why is this thread still up?





Reznor said:


> Man, this thread is staying alive.





Hachibi said:


> This thread's ability to stay alive is very impressive





This thread has ran its course and sometimes, we just have to let it go.


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