# Vista vs. Doflamingo



## duhjuanwhowins (Jan 7, 2014)

Battle Location: Sabody
State of Mind: Blood lusted

Let the battle begin


----------



## J★J♥ (Jan 7, 2014)

Vista gets stomped.


----------



## Rob (Jan 7, 2014)

I feel that Dofla should take this.


----------



## Rob (Jan 7, 2014)

duhjuanwhowins said:


> Battle Location: *Sabody*
> State of Mind: Blood lustedu






*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Halcyon (Jan 7, 2014)

I think Jozu >= DD so DD takes it high diff


----------



## duhjuanwhowins (Jan 7, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> *Spoiler*: __


 Problem with mai spelling?


----------



## cry77 (Jan 7, 2014)

Vista should take this with the lower end of high diff.


----------



## trance (Jan 7, 2014)

Can go either way. I'll lean towards Doffy.


----------



## tanman (Jan 7, 2014)

Doflamingo, low end of high diff seems reasonable.


----------



## Shanks (Jan 7, 2014)

The guy that's named after a Microsoft Window has feats that would Mid~High dif Dolfa until proven otherwise.


----------



## Goomoonryong (Jan 7, 2014)

Doflamingo takes this high diff.


----------



## Magentabeard (Jan 8, 2014)

Mihawk vs Vista ended up in a stalemate. Nothing more needs to be said.


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 8, 2014)

Assuming it's manga knowledge, ie no knowledge (presumably), then Dof is likely to win almost immediately, like against Jozu.
If Vista has knowledge, then Dof wins high diff.


----------



## Rob (Jan 8, 2014)

Sabo said:


> The guy that's named after a Microsoft Window has feats that would Mid~High dif Dolfa until proven otherwise.



Cute post  


*Spoiler*: __ 



Nothing Vista has done so far would put Doffy down.


----------



## Enel (Jan 8, 2014)

I'd go for Doflamingo high-diff here. He was able to restrain a physical powerhouse like Jozu, though he was distracted at this moment. If he gets an opening on Vista I don't see why he shouldn't be able to do the same here.
Though Vista can give him some trouble by blocking his strings and counterattacking.


----------



## Lawliet (Jan 8, 2014)

Doflamingo shaves that mustache in the process of killing him


----------



## Dunno (Jan 8, 2014)

Doflamingo mid-high diff.


----------



## RF (Jan 8, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Assuming it's manga knowledge, ie no knowledge (presumably), then Dof is likely to win almost immediately, like against Jozu.
> If Vista has knowledge, then Dof wins high diff.



How the hell did Dofla win against Jozu ? 

Could go either way.


----------



## Captain Altintop (Jan 8, 2014)

DD wins high diff. He should be comparable to Jozu.


----------



## Halcyon (Jan 8, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> How the hell did Dofla win against Jozu ?


Classic OL.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 8, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> How the hell did Dofla win against Jozu ?
> 
> Could go either way.


well Jozu was helpless and DD could have killed Jozu with Over Heat (or any other stronger attack) on that situation if he wanted. But, DD did not give a darn about Jozu on that time. He was just focused on talking with Crocodile.

and i wount bet against DD trapping Jozu like that in a 1 vs 1 fight if Jozu has 0 knowledge.


----------



## RF (Jan 8, 2014)

> well Jozu was helpless



Prove he couldn't have broken out after a decent bit of struggle. 



> DD could have killed Jozu with Over Heat (or any other stronger attack) on that situation if he wanted.



Slicing diamond? Lolnope.


----------



## GrizzlyClaws (Jan 8, 2014)

For some reason i don't see Dofla stalling an Admiral level fighter as efficiently as Vista did, but on the other hand i think Dofla is in between Vista and Jozu strength wise.

I say Dofla wins with very high diff.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 8, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Prove he couldn't have broken out after a decent bit of struggle.


It is u who have to prove that Jozu can break out of DD's trap (if he can that is and thats a big if) fast enough to dodge DD's attack .



> Slicing diamond? Lolnope.



Why would DD need to slice diamond to kill Jozu on that time? :ho


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 8, 2014)

Doffy wins high diff. I don't know what DD did to Jozu though. He held him down which is good but he never cut him or controlled him.


----------



## RF (Jan 8, 2014)

> It is u who have to prove that Jozu can break out of DD's trap (if he can that is and thats a big if) fast enough to dodge DD's attack .



No, you asserted that Jozu was incapable of breaking out of Doflamingo's strings so you have to prove it. We'll see characters weaker than Jozu struggle and break out of his trap. Just because the guy was held in place for half a minute at best doesn't mean he couldn't have broken out if he really tried. There's also the possibility that Doflamingo had to use all his strings to ensnare the man so he couldn't have done shit regardless.

All of those things make far more sense than Doflamingo going lolParasite and basically fodderizing someone arguably stronger than him.



> Why would DD need to slice diamond to kill Jozu on that time?



Because Jozu is made of diamond?


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 8, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> No, you asserted that Jozu was incapable of breaking out of Doflamingo's strings so you have to prove it. We'll see characters weaker than Jozu struggle and break out of his trap. Just because the guy was held in place for *half a minute* at best doesn't mean he couldn't have broken out if he really tried. There's also the possibility that Doflamingo had to use all his strings to ensnare the man so he couldn't have done shit regardless.
> All of those things make far more sense than Doflamingo going lolParasite and basically fodderizing someone arguably stronger than him.



Even if i assume Jozu can break out of DD's trap(which is baseless at this point of manga) , that half a min or so his more than enough time for DD to kill Jozu.



> Because Jozu is made of diamond?



re-read MF. Jozu was not in diamond form  .

inb4, Jozu would have turn to diamond when he was trapped assumption


----------



## RF (Jan 8, 2014)

Jozu is always diamond, the same way Luffy is always rubber and Daz Bones is always steel. All Paramecia's work the same way. He just doesn't entirely draw him that way because it's unnecessary and visually unappealing.


----------



## Enel (Jan 8, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Even if i assume Jozu can break out of DD's trap(which is baseless at this point of manga) , that half a min or so his more than enough time for DD to kill Jozu.


Care to explain how he kills Jozu in half a minute?


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 8, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Jozu is always diamond, the same way Luffy is always rubber and Daz Bones is always steel. All Paramecia's work the same way. He just doesn't entirely draw him that way because it's unnecessary and visually unappealing.


r u really suggesting DD cant harm an non diamond form Jozu even after getting a free shoot ?Cause if this is true then DD wount be able to harm Jozu even in his sleep and Dd will be a non factor to Jozu 

U r confusing logia with Paramecia. All logia works in same way but not Paramecia.U will find a lots of Paramecia in Op whose body is not made of their DF.One Paramecia differs from another one. Luffy does not need an another form just to turn into rubber same is true for Daz but Jozu does. Jozu is not same as Luffy & Daz. 



> Care to explain how he kills Jozu in half a minute?



by cutting non-diamond Jozu in half , or use over heat at Jozu's heart . so many possibility


----------



## RF (Jan 8, 2014)

Again, Jozu is always diamond. There is absolutely no reason to assume he's any different from Daz Bones. It would actually completely suck if he had to manually turn his body into diamond.


----------



## Enel (Jan 8, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> by cutting non-diamond Jozu in half , or use over heat at Jozu's heart . so many possibility


So you think Doflamingo can oneshot Jozu?


----------



## BashFace (Jan 8, 2014)

What the fuck heaps of people here saying Doflamingo. Vista went toe to toe with Mihawk for a bit there I don't think Doflamingo could do the same.Vista High diff could cry at any other response. Which I already have secretly.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 8, 2014)

BashFace said:


> What the fuck heaps of people here saying Doflamingo. Vista went toe to toe with *Mihawk for a bit there I don't think Doflamingo could do the same.*



This has been such a baseless myth perputated on here by the Vista supporters, some of whom still post on here. That not many others could have stalled Mihawk for a short period of time and hence he's got to be this great top tier fighter capable of doing remarkable things (defeating 3 Ace's springs to mind). 

I fail to see why Doflamingo wouldn't be able to hold of Mihawk for a short while either. Granted it wouldn't look as pretty and elegant as Vista did it because Doflamingo isn't a swordsman so there wouldn't be a neat little sword duel but Doflamingo has demonstrated enough attack power, through his feats, and also has had strong potrayal throughout the manga which paints him potentially above the likes of Jozu, let alone weaker subordinates like Vista, which indicates this is more than a capable task for him. Of course Mihawk should eventually prevail, like he would do against Vista but it won't be after a short quick battle.

I'm not taking anything away from Mihawk either in this. He's a certifiable top tier, comparable to any Admiral or Yonkou. 


OT: Doflamingo takes this, high difficulty most likely but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was less than that.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 8, 2014)

Vista high diff nothing else acceptable


----------



## Orca (Jan 8, 2014)

Doflamingo takes this high diff.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 8, 2014)

Enel said:


> So you think Doflamingo can oneshot Jozu?



in that trapped situation ? yes .


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 8, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Again, Jozu is always diamond. There is absolutely no reason to assume he's any different from Daz Bones. It would actually completely suck if he had to manually turn his body into diamond.



and it would really suck if his diamond form is just for show and there is no way DD can harm almighty Jozu. Even when Jozu in his sleep


----------



## Enel (Jan 8, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> and it would really suck if his diamond form is just for show and there is no way DD can harm almighty Jozu. Even when Jozu in his sleep


Well DD can use CoA to hit his real body I guess. Though I don't think one hit is enough to put down a powerhouse like Jozu.


----------



## Ghost (Jan 8, 2014)

Either way extreme diff.


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 8, 2014)

> it would really suck if his diamond form is just for show and there is no way DD can harm almighty Jozu



You mean to say that's worse than Jozu, who was able to fight Aokiji one on one for an extended period of time and use his defense to stop a huge slash from the world's strongest swordsman aimed at the world's strongest man, being lol-oneshotted by Doflamingo? The wild assumptions people make in in Doflamingo's favor are out of control.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 8, 2014)

Can go either way at high/extreme diff.


Lionel Messi said:


> well Jozu was helpless and DD could have killed Jozu with Over Heat (or any other stronger attack) on that situation if he wanted. But, DD did not give a darn about Jozu on that time. He was just focused on talking with Crocodile.
> 
> and i wount bet against DD trapping Jozu like that in a 1 vs 1 fight if Jozu has 0 knowledge.


We don't even know if DD could have moved Jozu from the spot, let alone injure or kill him, after all, the dude tanked a slash from Mihawk (which seemed a bit more dangerous than Overheat IMO).


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 8, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> You mean to say that's worse than Jozu, who was able to fight Aokiji one on one for an extended period of time and use his defense to stop a huge slash from the world's strongest swordsman aimed at the world's strongest man, being lol-oneshotted by Doflamingo? The wild assumptions people make in in Doflamingo's favor are out of control.



Jozu get one shooted by Aokiji the moment he looked at Marco and he did not break out of it. So, getting one shooted is not new to Jozu at all.

DD's DF is hex and knowledge is very critical. With knowledge Jozu will do better. and wount fall in DD's trap (just like DD vs Law). But, without knowledge the fight would most likely be like CC vs Luffy round 1.

and off course its worse than Jozu. with knowledge Jozu can overcome the advantage DD has over Jozu but poor DD ,no matter what he tries he cant even harm that solid manly body of Jozu 




> We don't even know if DD could have moved Jozu from the spot, let alone injure or kill him, after all, the dude tanked a slash from Mihawk


Jozu used his diamond form to block Mihawks air slash . And the Jozu we r talking about is the trapped one ,who was not on his diamond form & was unable to move


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 8, 2014)

> But, without knowledge the fight would be like CC vs Luffy round 1.



You can't just make things up. Why would Jozu be unable to defend against Doflamingo's attacks with his diamond body that is able to stop Mihawk's giant slash? There isn't a single reason. How useless would his ability be if it can't help him defend against someone like Doflamingo? Makes him look like crap in comparison to Daz Bones who was defended just fine against Zoro of the same level. I guess these things never even crossed your mind?



> poor DD ,no matter what he tries he cant even harm that solid manly body of Jozu



You are making the assumption that Jozu can't break free of Doflamingo's hold because he didn't show the ability to do so. Doflamingo doesn't automatically get the benefit of the doubt that he can one-shot Jozu when he didn't show it at all.


----------



## Kanki (Jan 8, 2014)

There's a huge difference between Doflamingo 'capturing' Jozu in his strings, to actually harming him.

If Jozu can tank a slash from Mihawk, the slashes  that messed up Law and Sanji should have no chance.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 8, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> You can't just make things up. Why would Jozu be unable to defend against Doflamingo's attacks with his diamond body that is able to stop Mihawk's giant slash? There isn't a single reason. How useless would his ability be if it can't help him defend against someone like Doflamingo? Makes him look like crap in comparison to Daz Bones who was defended just fine against Zoro of the same level. I guess these things never even crossed your mind?



Mihawk's air slash was blocked with his diamond form not with his body alone. and when Jozu was trapped by DD , Jozu was not in his diamond form. He was in a helpless position. all DD needed was to use Over Heat (or one of his strongest move) to kill Jozu. But, Jozu was lucky that DD was not interested in killing Jozu & talking to Crocodile.

and i honestly did not get what u r trying to say with Daz bone. plz simplify it.




> You are making the assumption that Jozu can't break free of Doflamingo's hold because he didn't show the ability to do so. Doflamingo doesn't automatically get the benefit of the doubt that he can one-shot Jozu when he didn't show it at all.



DD showed that he can attack his pray freely when his pray is trapped(Sanji vs DD). But, no one ever break out of DD's trap or even showed resistance to it. So, it is clear who should get the benefit of doubt here for now.



Kanki Is God said:


> If Jozu can tank a slash from Mihawk



Mihawk's air slash was blocked with his diamond form not with his body alone. and when Jozu was trapped by DD , Jozu was not in his diamond form.


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 8, 2014)

> Mihawk's air slash was blocked with his diamond form not with his body alone. and when Jozu was trapped by DD , Jozu was not in his diamond form.





Not in his diamond form? Stop making crap up. Why would being restrained from moving around prevent him from using his Devil Fruit? If (I say if, because you don't know if it's a permanent "form" or if Oda only draws it partially no different from how he draws Logia) he had exited it next time we saw him it only reinforces that he wasn't concerned about being attacked all. Just look at how he reacts. He just turns his head and glares at Doflamingo seeming rather indifferent. Next time we see them he isn't sweating at all, sweat being the most typical sign of concern. It's quite ridiculous to suggest that he's in a position where he can be helplessly one-shotted if Doflamingo didn't dick around.



> DD showed that he can attack his pray freely when his pray is trapped(Sanji vs DD). But, no one ever break out of DD's trap or even showed resistance to it. So, it is clear who should get the benefit of doubt here for now.



That doesn't say dick about whether Doflamingo would be able to break Jozu's diamond defense. Let alone fucking one-shot him. No, he doesn't get that benefit of the doubt whatsoever because we've not a reason in hell to give it to him.


----------



## Beckman (Jan 8, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> You are making the assumption that Jozu can't break free of Doflamingo's hold because he didn't show the ability to do so. Doflamingo doesn't automatically get the benefit of the doubt that he can one-shot Jozu when he didn't show it at all.



Doffy should probably get this "benefit of the doubt" since he didn't try to harm Jozu while it wouldn't make sense for Jozu to not try to break uot of the hold in the middle of a war. Also, afaik Jozu have yet to show the ability to cover his whole body in diamond. Doffy could just aim for the spots that isn't covered.

I get the feeling you think Doffy beating an off-guard Jozu would be an insult to Jozu. I don't really get this as we've seen countless situation in which someone weaker have managed to beat/injure someone stronger thanks to an off-guard attack. It doesn't prove that Doffy would win a straight 1v1.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 8, 2014)

Enel said:


> Well DD can use CoA to hit his real body I guess. Though I don't think one hit is enough to put down a powerhouse like Jozu.



COA is the ability to touch a df's users realy body not negate their df. Touching a df user works mostly with Parmerica. Touching Jozu can't deactiviate his df as haki does not do that.


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 8, 2014)

> Doffy should probably get this "benefit of the doubt" since he didn't try to harm Jozu while it wouldn't make sense for Jozu to not try to break uot of the hold in the middle of a war.



Yet Jozu simply glared angrily at him and wasn't so much as sweating a drop when we saw them the second time (even turned off his diamond, if that's how you've decided his power works)? How does that indicate the behavior of someone who's about to be destroyed at any moment if his opponent feels like it? It just doesn't, not close to it. Jozu didn't try to break out and Doflamingo didn't try to harm him. To then conclude "Jozu couldn't have broken out and Doflamingo could have one-shotted him" is some seriously twisted reasoning.



> I get the feeling you think Doffy beating an off-guard Jozu would be an insult to Jozu.



No, we are discussing the specifics of the scene, the precise manner in which he would allegedly be defeated as well as if there's the slightest indication that he -would- be defeated. I'm just tired of these baseless assumptions and flat out lies like "Doflamingo beat Jozu". Jozu has an insanely powerful Devil Fruit as well which is all about an extreme defense, most of all against slicing/piercing attacks. Yet that is completely disregarded by some who conclude out of nowhere that not only did Doflamingo "beat" Jozu, he could have destroyed him without Jozu being able to lift a finger, despite none of these things being so much as remotely implied. All that happened was that Jozu was restrained. That's it. That's all. Period. We don't know what could or would have happened if they weren't separated.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 8, 2014)

If Jozu could break out of DD's hold I doubt he'd be like lol nope and just take it. He'd try to get out which didn't happen until DD let go. Jozu not trying to break out makes 0 sense unless he likes getting cockblcked for no reason. Pick one Corus.


----------



## GrizzlyClaws (Jan 8, 2014)

The thought of Jozus diamond form being an always-on thing like Luffy or Mr. 1 never ocurred to me to be honest. I was under the impression jozu has to activate it manually. his fruit would be insanely powerful then, because he would be pretty much mr. invincible. giving his most likely top tier or close to top tier haki makes it even worse.

to avoid this, i thought oda put 3 restrictions on it, 1) him having to activate it manually 2) he can't cover his entire body in diamond at the same time and 3) he can't move body parts covered in diamonds.

of course this is only my speculation and your guess is as good as mine, as oda has yet to explain the specifics of this fruit.

though, oda drawing the diamonds on him just for shits and giggles seems kind of unlikely to me.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 8, 2014)

^ Good analysis. Jozu being able to  go into diamond form and always have it would be over powered.


----------



## Moneyshot (Jan 8, 2014)

Me and Corus had a pretty long ( amicable) argument about the Doflamingo Jozu scene and it's a really sore subject for him lol.

Truth of the matter is Jozu got caught, no one so far has shown the ability to get out once caught, therefore until proven otherwise it's only logical to assume Jozu couldn't of gotten out. I mean, why wouldn't he of tried? 

That's all we know so far. Do I think that Dofla would of one shot him? No. But Corus you go so far to defend Jozu is this situation that you downplay Dofla way too much. 

Also for those saying Jozu is hella strong (he is) because he blocked and air slash. So did Daz. Cue the argument "oh different powers blah wah" that people use when there is evidence against their assertions.


----------



## Dunno (Jan 8, 2014)

Ehm guys, just a reminder: We haven't actually seen anyone struggle with cutting or punching diamond. The notion that it would be extremely hard for a strong OP character to cut through diamond is entirely fan-made. In the actual manga, Jozu's "extremely strong/unbreakable" defence hasn't been shown once.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 8, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> To then conclude "Jozu couldn't have broken out and Doflamingo could have one-shotted him" is some seriously twisted reasoning.



I don't agree with Doflamingo being able to one-shot Jozu bit either but I don't understand your vehement opposition to the first part either, about Jozu not being able to break out of the hold. 

If you're insuinating that Jozu that could have broken out of it then the implication is that he chose not to, no? Do you then honestly think that Jozu prefered remaining paralysed for the sake of it? That he felt comfortable with Doflamingo humiliating him in front of everyone by using him as a stool to rest on whilst he had a conversation with Crocodile, who by the way was meant to be the target of his ire. It doesn't make sense. The most sensible option that most people have concluded is that he _wasn't_ able to break out i.e. they give the benefit of the doubt to Doflamingo. Let us not forget either that this went on for quite a reasonable amount of time as well. 

I agree with DBZ (Benn Beckman) and Moneyshot. It seems to me that you (and others) are so insulted about the possiblity of Doflamingo potentially being superior to Jozu that you go out of your way to downplay that feat and portrayal from Doflamingo, microanalysing panels instead of focusing on the glaringly obvious.


----------



## tanman (Jan 8, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Prove he couldn't have broken out after a decent bit of struggle.



You can do better than that, Sakazuki.
Nobody would stay under Doflamingo's Parasite if they could break out with a "decent bit of struggle." It would be downright negligent of Jozu to remain under Doflamingo's thumb when his forces were spread so thin, and he's one of the only three people on his side that can put up a good fight against the admirals. However, you are correct to think that Doflamingo one-shotting Jozu is ludicrous. But in that particular situation, had Doflamingo been so inclined, he could have called Akainu over to once and for all kill off the legendary Diamond Jozu. It is fair to say he had Jozu by the balls, which is a testament to Doflamingo's power not to Jozu's weakness.


Now, there is an argument to be had for Jozu not getting trapped by Parasite were he to approach Doflamingo directly with knowledge (but even that is conjecture at this point when we still have no knowledge of any weaknesses to Parasite).


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 8, 2014)

Great post Boss AK and tanman Corus quite regularly defends jozu like when he said that Jozu held back when he hit Croc.


----------



## Doma (Jan 8, 2014)

Dunno said:


> Ehm guys, just a reminder: We haven't actually seen anyone struggle with cutting or punching diamond. The notion that it would be extremely hard for a strong OP character to cut through diamond is entirely fan-made. In the actual manga, Jozu's "extremely strong/unbreakable" defence hasn't been shown once.



How is blocking a powerful attack from Mihawk by turning into diamond not Oda showing off Jozu's powerful defense?


----------



## Dunno (Jan 8, 2014)

Doma said:


> How is blocking a powerful attack from Mihawk by turning into diamond not Oda showing off Jozu's powerful defense?



It is a showing of Jozu's defence yes, but it's not more impressive than what other people on his level has done. Vista also managed to block several of Mihawk's attacks, and at close range at that. The thing is that blocking an attack from that far away doesn't take incredible defence, attacks that the defender is prepared for and has time to react to doesn't usually harm him. Even Ace was able to block an attack from Aokiji, and that doesn't make him indestructible. The thing is that we haven't seen Jozu take even one unblocked hit and shrug it off, so we can't say that his defence is much stronger than for example Vista's, Doflamingo's or Hancock's.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 8, 2014)

^ He took the World's strongest slash. Deal with it. Vista didn't take the World's strongest slash.


----------



## Dunno (Jan 8, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> ^ He took the World's strongest slash. Deal with it. Vista didn't take the World's strongest slash.



The world's strongest slash according to a generic fodder marine. Fodder are usually not very reliable sources. Unless you think that an air slash, which Mihawk performed without any exertion at all, way before his final fight with Zoro is the strongest slash he'll ever use, that statement can be disregarded. Also, he didn't take the slash, he blocked it. Just like when Shanks blocked Akainu's fist, this does not indicate that the attack can't harm him if the situation was different.


----------



## Orca (Jan 8, 2014)

Dunno said:


> It is a showing of Jozu's defence yes, but it's not more impressive than what other people on his level has done. Vista also managed to block several of Mihawk's attacks, and at close range at that. The thing is that blocking an attack from that far away doesn't take incredible defence, attacks that the defender is prepared for and has time to react to doesn't usually harm him. Even Ace was able to block an attack from Aokiji, and that doesn't make him indestructible. The thing is that we haven't seen Jozu take even one unblocked hit and shrug it off, so we can't say that his defence is much stronger than for example Vista's, Doflamingo's or Hancock's.



Jozu stopped Mihawk's strongest slash with his bare body. How is that not a testament to his defence


----------



## cry77 (Jan 8, 2014)

Pretty sure the "strongest slash" was a common mistranslation.
It actually said "A slash from the strongest swordsman"


----------



## cry77 (Jan 8, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Jozu stopped Mihawk's strongest slash with his bare body. How is that not a testament to his defence


Dont get me wrong, I'm all for jozu and stuff, but really, using that feat as a testament for jozus power is like saying luffys tanking blunt force is a testament to his. I mean, that's what their DFs do.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 8, 2014)

Dunno said:


> The world's strongest slash according to a generic fodder marine. Fodder are usually not very reliable sources. Unless you think that an air slash, which Mihawk performed without any exertion at all, way before his final fight with Zoro is the strongest slash he'll ever use, that statement can be disregarded. Also, he didn't take the slash, he blocked it. Just like when Shanks blocked Akainu's fist, this does not indicate that the attack can't harm him if the situation was different.



Jozu tanked it. That's it. In this thread and the other no amount of Jozu downplay will take away his feats.


----------



## Orca (Jan 8, 2014)

cry77 said:


> Dont get me wrong, I'm all for jozu and stuff, but really, using that feat as a testament for jozus power is like saying luffys tanking blunt force is a testament to his. I mean, that's what their DFs do.



Ofcourse. Hence why I said jozu has a good defence, not power. Just like how Luffy has a good defence too against blunt force damage.

Plus every translation on Cnet says world strongest slash/attach/strike. And not a attack from WSS.


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 8, 2014)

Some of you people think the issue is _Doflamingo downplaying_ in here? Look at what Dunno is spouting for heaven's sake. "Jozu's defense has never been made out to be all that special" is basically the asinine line of thought he's attempting to push through.  All the assumptions are made in Doflamingo's favor. He could destroy Jozu with Jozu unable to do a thing about it. Jozu couldn't break free. The latter is well supported, the former is nowhere near it and flies right in the face of what the scene actually portrays.



> I don't understand your vehement opposition to the first part either, about Jozu not being able to break out of the hold.



Where is this vehement opposition you speak of? Please direct me to it and I shall make amends if necessary as I never once intended to express any incredulity at such an opinion, as it's one I hold myself.



> The most sensible option that most people have concluded is that he wasn't able to break out i.e. they give the benefit of the doubt to Doflamingo.



Yes. That's where the benefit of the doubt goes (that said, it doesn't make it a fact). If you're misremembering some parts of my earlier conversations you might have gotten things confused as what I said was that Doflamingo does NOT get the benefit of the doubt that he could destroy or one-shot Jozu just because he held him down in that moment. On the contrary, we should sure as all hell give the benefit of the doubt to Jozu that he would not get easily one-shotted and destroyed, given his feats, his credence, and as I keep pointing out, his lack of visual concern despite being seemingly immobilized. But this is something that some people are not willing to do and that's what I got into this discussion to object against. The baseless and unfair assumptions in one part's favor.



> It seems to me that you (and others) are so insulted about the possiblity of Doflamingo potentially being superior to Jozu that you go out of your way to downplay that feat and portrayal from Doflamingo, microanalysing panels instead of focusing on the glaringly obvious.



Once again, feel free to point these instances out and I will answer your objections. I don't feel that I've done any such thing and sweeping accusations is a bit difficult to respond to.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 9, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Not in his diamond form? Stop making crap up. Why would being restrained from moving around prevent him from using his Devil Fruit? If (I say if, because you don't know if it's a permanent "form" or if Oda only draws it partially no different from how he draws Logia) he had exited it next time we saw him it only reinforces that he wasn't concerned about being attacked all. Just look at how he reacts. He just turns his head and glares at Doflamingo seeming rather indifferent. Next time we see them he isn't sweating at all, sweat being the most typical sign of concern. It's quite ridiculous to suggest that he's in a position where he can be helplessly one-shotted if Doflamingo didn't dick around.



He was half diamond form. So, even if we assume DD cant cut diamond part of Jozu , the normal part (where Jozu's heart is) was not diamond coated & open for over heat type of attack . 


Also, i wanna mention that Jozu was not able to remain in his diamond form (half) when he was trapped. So, there is a strong possibility the trapped person cant use his power even if he wants to. Cause, in that trapped position Jozu himself choosing to let go of his diamond form is stupid & does not make sense.




> That doesn't say dick about whether Doflamingo would be able to break Jozu's diamond defense. Let alone fucking one-shot him. No, he doesn't get that benefit of the doubt whatsoever because we've not a reason in hell to give it to him.


over heat at _non-diamond_ Jozu's heart (Jozu's defense is not at his 100%) will do the trick. Unless u think DD's offense is not strong enough to pierce through even _non-diamond_ Jozu who is not moving at all.


----------



## Enel (Jan 9, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> COA is the ability to touch a df's users realy body not negate their df. Touching a df user works mostly with Parmerica. Touching Jozu can't deactiviate his df as haki does not do that.


Then explain to me why Luffy gets hurt when someone with CoA punches him, because his rubber body should protect him from that just like Jozu's diamond body should protect him too.


----------



## RF (Jan 9, 2014)

tanman said:


> You can do better than that, Sakazuki.
> Nobody would stay under Doflamingo's Parasite if they could break out with a "decent bit of struggle." It would be downright negligent of Jozu to remain under Doflamingo's thumb when his forces were spread so thin, and he's one of the only three people on his side that can put up a good fight against the admirals.



I'm not saying Jozu would have simply broken out of it with ease and then beaten Doflamingo to a pulp. Say whatever you want, but to infer that Jozu can never ever ever ever ever ever ever break out of Doflamingo's grip because he was held in place for a few seconds is downright nonsense, especially now that we'll see even weaker characters escaping the trap.


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 9, 2014)

> He was half diamond form. So, even if we assume DD cant cut diamond part of Jozu , the normal part (where Jozu's heart is) was not diamond coated & open for over heat type of attack .



Not half. He was diamond on the part where he was attacking with. Why the hell can't he turn to diamond on the parts he needs to defend with? Are you even using your brain about this? We see Luffy and Don Chinjao use Haki on specific parts of their bodies to defend against attacks. Why would a guy named Diamond Jozu be helplessly unable to transform whichever part of his body he needs into diamond to defend against attacks. Why would he be burdened with an absurd incompetence or nerf like that. It's like I said: *you make every single assumption in Doflamingo's favor no matter how illogical*. Jozu can't turn into diamond. Jozu can't turn specific parts into diamond so Doflamingo can simply lol at his defense by attacking non diamond parts. Not one of these things are logical or implied in the scene.



> Also, i wanna mention that Jozu was not able to remain in his diamond form (half) when he was trapped.



You. Are. Making. Things. Up.

How do you know he didn't simply go out of it? Are you completely, utterly oblivous to the fact that _the guy doesn't look the slightest bit worried_? Does this completely fly over your head? Do people who are completely helpless and going to be one-shotted with unbelievably dire consequences for all their friends and crewmates typically not sweat a single drop? You don't care at all about what actually happened in the scene, all you give a crap about is pushing your own bias interpretation.


----------



## trance (Jan 9, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Great post Boss AK and tanman Corus quite regularly defends jozu like when he said that *Jozu held back when he hit Croc. *



Either that or outlier/PIS. Take your pick.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 9, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Not half. He was diamond on the part where he was attacking with. Why the hell can't he turn to diamond on the parts he needs to defend with? Are you even using your brain about this? We see Luffy and Don Chinjao use Haki on specific parts of their bodies to defend against attacks. Why would a guy named Diamond Jozu be helplessly unable to transform whichever part of his body he needs into diamond to defend against attacks. Why would he be burdened with an absurd incompetence or nerf like that. It's like I said: *you make every single assumption in Doflamingo's favor no matter how illogical*. Jozu can't turn into diamond. Jozu can't turn specific parts into diamond so Doflamingo can simply lol at his defense by attacking non diamond parts. Not one of these things are logical or implied in the scene


.

He was attacking with half Diamond form and DD trapped him in that position. In the next panel we see Jozu is in his normal form. What do u make of this ? Jozu was in so much comfortable position that he chose to let go of his diamond coating or Jozu simply could not keep that coating because of DD's trap ability (which is the first step to control).




> You. Are. Making. Things. Up.
> 
> How do you know he didn't simply go out of it? Are you completely, utterly oblivous to the fact that _the guy doesn't look the slightest bit worried_? Does this completely fly over your head? Do people who are completely helpless and going to be one-shotted with unbelievably dire consequences for all their friends and crewmates typically not sweat a single drop? You don't care at all about what actually happened in the scene, all you give a crap about is pushing your own bias interpretation.



So, the basis of ur argument is lack of sweat drop ?


----------



## Unclear Justice (Jan 9, 2014)

Doffy wins by staying in the sky and whipping Vista. It will probably take while a though.


----------



## trance (Jan 9, 2014)

Lionel, are you getting what Corus is saying about Jozu's "lack of sweat drops"? Jozu was not visibly worried about the situation despite being restrained. There was no doubt or fear. In fact, Jozu seemed to be more annoyed than anything else.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 9, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Lionel, are you getting what Corus is saying about Jozu's "lack of sweat drops"? Jozu was not visibly worried about the situation despite being restrained. There was no doubt or fear. In fact, Jozu seemed to be more annoyed than anything else.


First of all its common sense that Jozu was in a very bad situation (sweat drop shows or not) and 2nd, look at jozu's face and tell me honestly what u really see.


----------



## Unclear Justice (Jan 9, 2014)

Jozu?s facial expression is irrelevant. 

From the moment DD stopped him Jozu always had the same facial expression.

In the scans of both of you, Lionel and Stαrkiller, Jozu says the following: "........"

This means Jozu wasn?t able to move his mouth because of Doflamingo, hence he had the same expression like when he attacked Crocodile. So it doesn?t say anything about whether or not Jozu was concerned.


Edit: 

Actually now that I think about it, Jozu was trying to talk two times but couldn?t. Seems like he really couldn?t break out of DD?s hold.


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 9, 2014)

> What do u make of this ? Jozu was in so much comfortable position that he chose to let go of his diamond coating or Jozu simply could not keep that coating because of DD's trap ability



I don't see any intuitive reason why being restrained from moving would stop him from using his Devil Fruit. We aren't talking about seastone. How does Jozu turn his body into diamond? What reason is there to think it isn't mental like most similar DFs? Jozu's face and total lack of signs of worrying beyond the exact moment of capture certainly indicate that he wasn't terrible concerned, merely annoyed. So based on that is it more likely that he was utterly helpless and about to be fodderized if the enemy wasn't dicking around, or that he knew he wasn't going to be taken down that easily? Use your hopefully decent sense of judgment and determine that for yourself.



> So, the basis of ur argument is lack of sweat drop ?



Are you interested in discussion or not? Because I don't care to respond to idiotic incredulity and strawmen in place of an argument. Respond properly or not at all.


----------



## RF (Jan 9, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> Jozu?s facial expression is irrelevant.
> 
> From the moment DD stopped him Jozu always had the same facial expression.
> 
> ...



u wot m8?


----------



## Lmao (Jan 9, 2014)

Sanji > Jozu because he could talk


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 9, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Either that or outlier/PIS. Take your pick.



Why would he hold back on someone that was killing his crew. Croc didn't  get dismantled by his punch.


----------



## RF (Jan 9, 2014)

So it's an outlier. OK.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 9, 2014)

Enel said:


> Then explain to me why Luffy gets hurt when someone with CoA punches him, because his rubber body should protect him from that just like Jozu's diamond body should protect him too.



Jozu's df has never been negated with haki touch becuase that's negating df's which haki doesn't do.


----------



## trance (Jan 9, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Why would he hold back on someone that was killing his crew. Croc didn't  get dismantled by his punch.



Outlier/PIS then. Good choice.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 9, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> I don't see any intuitive reason why being restrained from moving would stop him from using his Devil Fruit. We aren't talking about seastone. How does Jozu turn his body into diamond? What reason is there to think it isn't mental like most similar DFs? Jozu's face and total lack of signs of worrying beyond the exact moment of capture certainly indicate that he wasn't terrible concerned, merely annoyed. So based on that is it more likely that he was utterly helpless and about to be fodderized if the enemy wasn't dicking around, or that he knew he wasn't going to be taken down that easily? Use your hopefully decent sense of judgment and determine that for yourself.



May be because DD's df paralyzed/restricted Jozu's body and Jozu body is not listening to Jozu anymore. So, even if his mind tells his body to turn into diamond his body wount be able to carry it out because DD is the one who is in charge of Jozu's body. 

Really ? See it again 
 To me, Jozu's facial expression seems like he was in a very uncomfortable situation (like someone is doing him from behind and he cant do anything about it )



> Are you interested in discussion or not? Because I don't care to respond to idiotic incredulity and strawmen in place of an argument. Respond properly or not at all.



If ur basis of argument is just the facial expression & sweat drop instead of the real situation which we can see with our own eyes then forget it. i am not interested.

@starkiller
look closely to the pic i provided and u will see the helpless/uncomfortable look in his face


----------



## Enel (Jan 9, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Jozu's df has never been negated with haki touch becuase that's negating df's which haki doesn't do.


You still didn't explain why Luffy get hurt when he get punched with CoA.


----------



## Vengeance (Jan 9, 2014)

Imo they are very close, Doflamingo with very high difficulty.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 9, 2014)

Lmao said:


> Sanji > Jozu because he could talk



DD stopped Jozu from talking because he was having a conversation with Crocodile and DD dont like to be disturbed


----------



## trance (Jan 9, 2014)

> look closely to the pic i provided and u will see the helpless/uncomfortable look in his face



No. Look closely at *my* scan (which shows an actual close up of Jozu's face). Does that scream "Help me!!" or "Oh no!! What's gonna happen to me?"


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 9, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> No. Look closely at *my* scan (which shows an actual close up of Jozu's face). Does that scream "Help me!!" or "Oh no!! What's gonna happen to me?"



that was the very beginning and Jozu probably did not realize how much deep shit he is in. But, later when he was forced (assuming based on the situation) to leave his diamond mode and could not break out of the trap he looked worried. Thats why u should follow my link cause thats when Jozu realize he cant break out of it & his diamond coat is not on either.


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 9, 2014)

> To me, Jozu's facial expression seems like he was in a very uncomfortable situation



He looks angry. There isn't a single sweat drop on his face. Sweat drops is pretty much THE indication of someone being in an uncomfortable situation. If you read manga you must be completely aware of this. It's not irrelevant. Like Starkiller keeps saying, and as I think I also mentioned before, look at his face after Doffy captures him too. He turns his head around and gives him a pissed off stare. Your position is that this is someone who is utterly helpless and completely open to be killed the moment his captor wills it, with catastrophic consequences for all his friends and brothers around him. That does not make sense. The way Jozu looks is not how you visually convey a person in that kind of situation. 



> If ur basis of argument is just the facial expression & sweat drop instead of the real situation which we can see with our own eyes then forget it. i am not interested.



Are you oblivious to the thing known as _interpretation_? The only thing you're offering is an interpretation. It isn't the "real" scene. The real scene is that Doflamingo restrained Jozu's movement and that Jozu couldn't easily break free. That's the one and only thing that isn't up for interpretation. The rest is. And the problem is that your interpretation is ignorant and biased.


----------



## trance (Jan 9, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> that was the very beginning and Jozu probably did not realize how much deep shit he is in. But, later when he was forced (assuming based on the situation) to leave his diamond mode and could not break out of the trap he looked worried. Thats why u should follow my link cause thats when Jozu realize he cant break out of it & his diamond coat is not on either.



Good god. I'm half-tempted to call this fanfiction. You're making alot of claims and trying to assert them as the real deal without solid proof. Not only that but you're going off a scan where we don't have a solid idea of what Jozu's facial expression was like at the time.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 9, 2014)

@Starkiller and Coruscation


Coruscation said:


> He looks angry. There isn't a single sweat drop on his face. Sweat drops is pretty much THE indication of someone being in an uncomfortable situation. If you read manga you must be completely aware of this. It's not irrelevant. Like Starkiller keeps saying, and as I think I also mentioned before, look at his face after Doffy captures him too. He turns his head around and gives him a pissed off stare. Your position is that this is someone who is utterly helpless and completely open to be killed the moment his captor wills it, with catastrophic consequences for all his friends and brothers around him. That does not make sense. The way Jozu looks is not how you visually convey a person in that kind of situation.



Like i said to starkiller that was the very beginning and Jozu was just instantly trying to look who stopped him. That expression does not fully reflect how much trouble jozu was actually in. Cause thats the moment he was trying to realize whats going on. The last part (the no-diamond panel) was the time when Jozu realized he cant get away from the trap and actually realize fully how much trouble he was in. As for the sweat drop part we did not have a close view so its logical that Oda did not draw a sweat drop. But, oda did showed ".........." and what UJ said about it could be true.




> Are you oblivious to the thing known as _interpretation_? The only thing you're offering is an interpretation. It isn't the "real" scene. The real scene is that Doflamingo restrained Jozu's movement and *that Jozu couldn't easily break free*. That's the one and only thing that isn't up for interpretation. The rest is. And the problem is that your interpretation is ignorant and biased.



Jozu could not break free at all and on top of that his diamond form was gone (for whatever reason). Jozu looked worried or not does not change the fact DD had him by his balls.Unless u think DD does not have enough offensive power to pierce Jozu's heart specially when Jozu is not in his diamond mode , Jozu looking worried or not should be irrelevant


----------



## Gervin (Jan 9, 2014)

Wait, since when does Parasite suddenly sap the victim's ability to use their DF?  There is absolutely nothing at all anywhere in the manga that indicates this, and if it were true then Parasite would be the single most overpowered ability in One Piece.  Even if Dofla had Jozu completely restrained, there really isn't anything he could do to harm him from that point on.  Overheat is pretty easy to see coming and would give Jozu ample time to activate his diamond defense.  And to those saying that his defense isn't anything special because nobody has ever attempted to cut diamond in the OP world... huh?  Zoro had a hell of a time trying to cut Daz's steel defense, indicating that Oda has a general idea that hard materials are, in fact, pretty damn hard.  I'm pretty sure he meant for Jozu's DF to be pretty tough, especially considering the parallels between Jozu and Marco, someone who does have a fantastic defense which is supported by plenty of feats.


----------



## cry77 (Jan 9, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> @Starkiller and Coruscation
> 
> 
> Like i said to starkiller that was the very beginning and Jozu was just instantly trying to look who stopped him. That expression does not fully reflect how much trouble jozu was actually in. Cause thats the moment he was trying to realize whats going on. The last part (the no-diamond panel) was the time when Jozu realized he cant get away from the trap and actually realize fully how much trouble he was in. As for the sweat drop part we did not have a close view so its logical that Oda did not draw a sweat drop. But, oda did showed ".........." and what UJ said about it could be true.
> ...


the "....." could also be a sigh of Jozu waiting and not giving a fuck.


DD can only control physical movements, I have always been of the opinion that fruits like Jozus get activated mentally and so him being physically restrained would make no sense if you think about it (unless you think jozu needs to do fucking hand seals to activate diamond mode  )


----------



## Dunno (Jan 9, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Some of you people think the issue is _Doflamingo downplaying_ in here? Look at what Dunno is spouting for heaven's sake. "Jozu's defense has never been made out to be all that special" is basically the asinine line of thought he's attempting to push through.



Whether you or anyone else think the idea is asinine or nor, the fact still remains that we haven't seen anyone try and fail to damage or restrain Jozu. All Jozu ever did was block one slash from a semi-serious Mihawk from several kilometres away. While Mihawk is pretty strong, and blocking one attack from him is a decent feat, it was replicated by Vista and Ace several times over, and no-one seems to think that those two are immortal.

I also find it funny that certain people are trying to argue that Jozu didn't try and break out of Doflamingo's hold, just like he purposefully held back when hitting Crocodile. Anything that make Jozu look bad was done by him on purpose. He probably even let Aokiji freeze him on purpose.


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 9, 2014)

> The last part (the no-diamond panel) was the time when Jozu realized he cant get away from the trap and actually realize fully how much trouble he was in.



You're. Making. Shit. Up. Again.

He doesn't even look worried in that panel. He still looks angry, maybe annoyed, that's about as much as you can say with the poor view of his face.



> Jozu could not break free at all



That's not a fact. It's likely, and my personal opinion, but not a fact. We were separating fact from interpretation or did you forget?



> Jozu looked worried or not does not change the fact DD had him by his balls



You seriously don't understand what interpretation means do you? You don't get to parade around a bunch of assertions as fact while completely ignoring important evidence from the scene itself. How do we determine if Jozu was completely hopelessly vulnerable in that situation? By looking at all the factors that would indicate it. Such as whether there are signs of Jozu being deeply concerned, because he sure as hell would be if he, as far as he knew, was about to die any moment which would likely doom their entire war effort there and then. 



> we did not have a close view so its logical that Oda did not draw a sweat drop. But, oda did showed ".........."



What a bullshit excuse. We were more than close enough. Jozu takes up a pretty good part of the panel by himself. "..." is manga standard for when someone is basically just waiting and observing, generally not saying anything.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 9, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> You're. Making. Shit. Up. Again.
> 
> He doesn't even look worried in that panel. He still looks angry, maybe annoyed, that's about as much as you can say with the poor view of his face.



So r u saying he was not in trouble at all & was very comfortable with letting DD stop him and listen to their conversation , while Ace is fighting against time ?





> That's not a fact. It's likely, and my personal opinion, but not a fact. We were separating fact from interpretation or did you forget?



Jozu could not break out of the trap or even seen to have slightest movement or even implication that Jozu is resisting DD. Thats a fact.It does not depend on peoples opinion (WB had half of his face blown away thats what everyone saw. Its fact. Personal opinion mean nothing here) So, saying he could not break out at all from the trap (until Croc help him) is truth. Not opinion.



> You seriously don't understand what interpretation means do you? You don't get to parade around a bunch of assertions as fact while completely ignoring important evidence from the scene itself. How do we determine if Jozu was completely hopelessly vulnerable in that situation? By looking at all the factors that would indicate it. Such as whether there are signs of Jozu being deeply concerned, because he sure as hell would be if he, as far as he knew, was about to die any moment which would likely doom their entire war effort there and then.



Ok u plz explain to me why Jozu is not worried and gone from diamond from to no diamond form ? Is he that confident in himself that he let go of his diamond mode when an enemy is chilling on his back ?





> What a bullshit excuse. We were more than close enough. Jozu takes up a pretty good part of the panel by himself. "..." is manga standard for when someone is basically just waiting and observing, generally not saying anything


.

No we were not. That "..." means Jozu could not talk (againd DD's df come to my mind). and u chose to see it as Jozu was just waiting for their conversation to be over ,he was not trying to be rude.


----------



## cry77 (Jan 9, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> So r u saying he was not in trouble at all & was very comfortable with letting DD stop him and listen to their conversation , while Ace is fighting against time ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay i will try again

"the "....." could also be a sigh of Jozu waiting and not giving a fuck.


DD can only control physical movements, I have always been of the  opinion that fruits like Jozus get activated mentally and so him being  physically restrained would make no sense if you think about it (unless  you think jozu needs to do fucking hand seals to activate diamond mode  )"


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 9, 2014)

> So r u saying he was not in trouble at all & was very comfortable with letting DD stop him and listen to their conversation , while Ace is fighting against time ?



Do you even read what you respond to? Start debating properly instead of blurting out one strawman after another. No I said he clearly looks angry and maybe irritated. A natural way to look in the situation he was in. Where is "very comfortable" coming from? Respond to the actual argument and not your fabricated foe.



> So, saying he could not break out at all from the trap (until Croc help him) is truth. Not opinion.



No, no it isn't. It really isn't and if you think otherwise you simply don't understand what a fact is in contrast to a plausibility or the most well supported opinion.



> Ok u plz explain to me why Jozu is not worried and gone from diamond from to no diamond form ?



No, that is for you to do. We can see that there are no visual indications of deep concern. Thus when you posit that Jozu was in an extremely dire and horrifying situation wherein the outcome of the entire war and lives of his friends could be decide by the snap of Doffy's fingers without a thing he could do about, YOU need to explain why in the hell Jozu only looks angry, not concerned.

I don't understand why it's even necessary to "explain" why he isn't in full diamond form. He can activate it at need. What other reason need there be?



> No we were not.



Yes. We were. More than plenty close enough. I picked a chapter at complete random and came upon a sweat drop on a person further away/smaller than Jozu:




Now stop spouting bullshit.



> That "..." means Jozu could not talk



_You're. Making. Shit. Up._

Stop fabricating things. Have you seriously never seen "..." used in dialogue before to indicate that a character is waiting, observing, listening? It doesn't freaking mean they can't talk. Ever played Final Fantasy VIII? Whatever.


----------



## GrizzlyClaws (Jan 9, 2014)

People, you are going full retard if you think the dots mean Jozu couldn't freaking talk.

stop this shit.


----------



## trance (Jan 9, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> So r u saying he was not in trouble at all & was very comfortable with letting DD stop him and listen to their conversation , while Ace is fighting against time



Wow. Resorting to straw man fallacies are we?


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 9, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Do you even read what you respond to? Start debating properly instead of blurting out one strawman after another. No I said he clearly looks angry and maybe irritated. A natural way to look in the situation he was in. Where is "very comfortable" coming from? Respond to the actual argument and not your fabricated foe.



so,even if i agree with u that instead of looking worried , he looked angry that he cant move and got humiliated . What of it ? Does it change anything ?



> No, no it isn't. It really isn't and if you think otherwise you simply don't understand what a fact is in contrast to a plausibility or the most well supported opinion.



SO, u r saying there is a possibility of Jozu breaking out of the trap in between the time of 2 panel and then got caught again ? Cause thats the only way "Jozu could not break out of DD's trap" not a fact.



> No, that is for you to do. We can see that there are no visual indications of deep concern. Thus when you posit that Jozu was in an extremely dire and horrifying situation wherein the outcome of the entire war and lives of his friends could be decide by the snap of Doffy's fingers without a thing he could do about, YOU need to explain why in the hell Jozu only looks angry, not concerned.



Why ? I am not the one claiming Jozu was not worried , u r



> I don't understand why it's even necessary to "explain" why he isn't in full diamond form. He can activate it at need. What other reason need there be?



so, when he is trapped ,lost the freedom to move and a sitting duck to any kind of out side attack in the middle of an war against 3 fucking admiral ,it was unnecessary to keep that diamond coat .  OK



> Yes. We were. More than plenty close enough. I picked a chapter at complete random and came upon a sweat drop on a person further away/smaller than Jozu:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thats not worried sweat drop , they r sweating because they r surprised. So, u see the sweat drop means nothing important in proving Jozu was worried or not.




> _You're. Making. Shit. Up._
> 
> Stop fabricating things. Have you seriously never seen "..." used in dialogue before to indicate that a character is waiting, observing, listening? It doesn't freaking mean they can't talk. Ever played Final Fantasy VIII? Whatever.



So, all "...." was just Jozu waiting for their conversation to over ? 

 "...." can also be used when a character does not find anything to say and clearly Jozu had a lot of thing to say but probably could not say it. Notice how his teeth & mouth was in same place from beginning to end.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 9, 2014)

cry77 said:


> Okay i will try again
> 
> "the "....." could also be a sigh of Jozu waiting and not giving a fuck.
> 
> ...



may be , may be not.


Well i will give a little example. When see a naked whore u dont need any hand help to rise ur dragon , its just happened. But, if DD has control over ur body and no part of ur body can move ,ur dick wount rise even after u r horny. Cause, ur body belongs to young master 



GrizzlyClaws said:


> People, you are going full retard if you think the dots mean Jozu couldn't freaking talk.
> 
> stop this shit.



Well its not impossible seeing DD has the ability to control ur body including ur mouth and to tell u the truth , because DD was talking to Croc he may not wanted to be disturbed.


----------



## BlueDemon (Jan 9, 2014)

1) Deactivating his diamond form would actually indicate he doesn't feel threatened by either of his opponents. And as the other have said, I really doubt Dolfa can control DF powers.
2) I don't know anymore, but was he able to shut up King Riku during his rampage? I don't remember if he couldn't talk anymore while rampaging or if he only couldn't be heard. Anyway, it wouldn't really make sense to shut Jozu up.

And lastly, this is getting ridiculous. Jozu certainly wasn't at Doflamingo's mercy, no way in hell.


----------



## Akitō (Jan 9, 2014)

Doflamingo has the edge here, I think. Him restraining Jozu shows that he has a near top-tier level mastery over his Devil Fruit, and him turning his back to Aokiji is a pretty good indication that he's near the pheasant's level IMO. Vista's also there, but I find it hard to imagine that someone of his strength would be able to do what Doflamingo did to Jozu even if they had the same Devil Fruit.


----------



## Typhon (Jan 9, 2014)

Doflamingo. Nothing more then high diff imo.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 9, 2014)

Enel said:


> You still didn't explain why Luffy get hurt when he get punched with CoA.



Luffy's whole body is rubber. Is insides too his outside. Jozu puts on diamond layers on to his body rather than Luffy his heart and stuff aren't diamond or him being alive would be weird. What i'm saying isn't fact but it sounds pretty likely. @Starkiller I don't know where to stand with the Jozu thing. Croc shouldn't have taken it but he did yet PIS does seem like a good choice.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 9, 2014)

*Still waiting for Corus and Jozu supporters to tell me why Jozu didn't break out if he could.


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 9, 2014)

> thats not worried sweat drop , they r sweating because they r surprised.



You're a damn joke. You were arguing that we were TOO FAR AWAY TO SEE A SWEAT DROP. I showed with complete clarity that we aren't. Why the fuck would it matter if the sweat drop implies surprise or concern with regard to whether the character is too far away in the panel for it to be drawn? That's some seriously stupid goalpost moving. Time to stop taking you seriously since you clearly can't conduct a proper debate.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 9, 2014)

I can see you Starkiller (or RG).


----------



## trance (Jan 9, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> I can see you Starkiller (or RG).



I don't know about Coruscation but I'm not arguing for Jozu having the capability to break out of Doffy's "Parasite". I'm simply arguing that Jozu was in no way concerned or worried about the whole situation. Plus, I find Lionel's constant use of fallacies and baseless assumptions to be rather annoying.


----------



## Moneyshot (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm gunna chime in again....

Those arguing that Dofla could of one shot Jozu from where he was are stupid. Jozu is close enough (either way of you like) that he isn't getting one shot.

Those arguing that Jozu could of broken out are just as dumb. Nothing in the manga YET supports that once caught you can break out. And him just choosing to not try his hardest is idiotic.

All other arguments I'm seeing are biased interpretations from both sides. No sweet drop, not concerned.....and angry face with ...... means he can't talk. Could both be true, yeah maybe, but we dnt have any evidence to support either.

Although, no one addressed the point. Could King Riku talk? If he couldn't then I guess that would be at least some evidence to back up the no talking claim.

And now back to lurking for me xoxo moneyshot


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 10, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> You're a damn joke. You were arguing that we were TOO FAR AWAY TO SEE A SWEAT DROP. I showed with complete clarity that we aren't. Why the fuck would it matter if the sweat drop implies surprise or concern with regard to whether the character is too far away in the panel for it to be drawn? That's some seriously stupid goalpost moving. Time to stop taking you seriously since you clearly can't conduct a proper debate.



our main topic is never R WE TOO FAR AWAY TO SEE A SWEAT DROP OR NOT. And _i agree i was wrong_ _that sweat drop could be drawn from far away_. But, r u forgetting sweat drop implying surprise or concern is the main reason u bought it up in the first place. U said there is no sweat drop so Jozu must be not worried , I just proved u wrong that sweat drop does not always indicate concern .So, adding swat drop to the pic or not actually does not matter (to our actual debate).

and also u r a tricky debater. U have been avoiding all the question i have asked u so far and always grasping at straws. So, just a reminder of what is our real debate in case u forgot."DD could have killed Jozu at war if he wanted to" . I am debating in support of "Yes" and u r in support of "No".

And please next time if u reply , reply all the point/question properly. Otherwise dont reply at all. Thank u.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 10, 2014)

Doflamingo takes the victory with high difficulty.


----------



## Enel (Jan 10, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Luffy's whole body is rubber. Is insides too his outside. Jozu puts on diamond layers on to his body rather than Luffy his heart and stuff aren't diamond or him being alive would be weird. What i'm saying isn't fact but it sounds pretty likely.


So your reason is that you can live with guts made of rubber but not with guts made of diamond? 
That seems both equally unlikely imo, but this is One Piece and we actually know that it's possible in Luffy's case. And we know that at least some special parts of him are made of diamond


----------



## Coruscation (Jan 10, 2014)

> Those arguing that Jozu could of broken out are just as dumb.



No one is arguing that. Biased individuals have just misinterpreted my posts and accused me of it, when I've multiple times stated otherwise.



> U said there is no sweat drop so Jozu must be not worried , I just proved u wrong that sweat drop does not always indicate concern .So, adding swat drop to the pic or not actually does not matter



Ugh. These two sentences are so unbelievably stupid. You seem to have serious problems understanding the meaning of words or to comprehend your own writings. Practically every other thing you write (and I use the term rather loosely -- is it that difficult to type "you" and "are"?) is a fallacy or just a complete non sequitur. Thanks for cementing yourself as one of the most awful debaters (another loosely use term) on the forum. Lets me know to stay away.


----------



## Mike S (Jan 10, 2014)

Sanji told Nami & co. to use Coup De Burst while being controlled by the same move Jozu got caught in. King Riku and his army was also commenting on their situations. Jozu was certainly able to talk.

As for my take on the other situation, Oda did not show any signs of struggle or concern from Jozu. If he wanted to convey Jozu's feelings of concern to the reader, he would've gotten his point across and this wouldn't be a discussion. He only shows him observing, which likely means he knows he can't get out of that ability with brute strength and is waiting for an opportunity. He seems more annoyed by the fact that he got caught off guard by Doflamingo's ability than concerned. Of course this is just speculation and how I interpreted the scene.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 10, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> No one is arguing that. Biased individuals have just misinterpreted my posts and accused me of it, when I've multiple times stated otherwise.



Then, why were u arguing against the fact "Jozu could not break out of DD's trap" ?
and just to make sure (cause who knows u may deny this too) u r against the notion "DD could have killed Jozu at MF if he wanted", right ?



> Ugh. These two sentences are so unbelievably stupid. You seem to have serious problems understanding the meaning of words or to comprehend your own writings. Practically every other thing you write (and I use the term rather loosely -- is it that difficult to type "you" and "are"?) is a fallacy or just a complete non sequitur. Thanks for cementing yourself as one of the most awful debaters (another loosely use term) on the forum. Lets me know to stay away.



now u r just gonna say "lol u suck" and avoid the question u cant/dont wanna ans ? ok.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 10, 2014)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> Sanji told Nami & co. to use Coup De Burst while being controlled by the same move Jozu got caught in. King Riku and his army was also commenting on their situations. Jozu was certainly able to talk.



well against Jozu it may be a different. DD and Croc were having a conversation and its possible DD did not wanted to be disturbed. I am just saying its a possibility and not impossible (seeing how DD's df can control people and seeing "..." twice in a row , i was just trying to make 1+1 = 2).


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> well against Jozu it may be a different. DD and Croc were having a conversation and its possible DD did not wanted to be disturbed. I am just saying its a possibility and not impossible (seeing how DD's df can control people and seeing "..." twice in a row , i was just trying to make 1+1 = 2).



_Jozu talking would have changed nothing there. In every other instance where talking might have made a difference if unrestricted, like Sanji giving instructions to those on the Sunny, Doflamingo did not/was not able to stop his target from talking. Considering that, we have little reason to believe he is capable of such a feat and even less that he did so with Jozu._


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 10, 2014)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Jozu talking would have changed nothing there. In every other instance where talking might have made a difference if unrestricted, like Sanji giving instructions to those on the Sunny, Doflamingo did not/was not able to stop his target from talking. Considering that, we have little reason to believe he is capable of such a feat and even less that he did so with Jozu._



Like i said. Its just a possibility and i just gave u the reason why i think so. No matter how little it is, its still a possibility cause.. 1. Jozu did not/could not talk 2. Jozu's mouth structure was the same from the beginning to end. 3. that "..." bubble 4. Unlike other situation Jozu talking will disturb DD-Croc conversation , while normally a sadist like DD enjoy his victim's screaming. So, u see its not impossible or illogical to think DD can do that. Even tho it seems too hex of an ability


----------



## Unclear Justice (Jan 10, 2014)

The difference to what happened to King Riku and his army, what happened to Sanji and what happened to Jozu can be explained by DD?s ability being of different magnitude at each of these instances.


In King Riku?s case:

Doflamingo was controlling many people at once what by all means should be a harder thing to do than controlling one person. Also chances are that his DF mastery was not as great back then in comparison to his MF self.


In Sanji?s case: 

I think majority agrees when I say that Sanji is physically weaker than Jozu, so Sanji?s parasite being weaker than Jozu?s is quite possible. He just wanted to kill him and would have done it if Law wouldn?t have interfered.


In Jozu?s case:

Doflamingo is a smart guy. He should know what caliber of a fighter Jozu is. If he tries to control him using one of his high end parasites would be the way to go.


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 10, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Like i said. Its just a possibility and i just gave u the reason why i think so. No matter how little it is, its still a possibility cause.. 1. Jozu did not/could not talk 2. Jozu's mouth structure was the same from the beginning to end. 3. that "..." bubble 4. Unlike other situation Jozu talking will disturb DD-Croc conversation , while normally a sadist like DD enjoy his victim's screaming. So, u see its not impossible or illogical to think DD can do that. Even tho it seems too hex of an ability


_
All this explanations are not needed though and the easy answer is "Jozu had nothing to say". The "...." usually indicates that, and considering the position he was in and the little we got to see from Jozu, he doesn't really look like the type to start yelling. I'm sure you agree that Oda could have emphasized his inability to talk, if that actually was the case, much more in order to give substance to your theory. Since he did not and you are only supporting this assumption through more assumptions, or the fact that it is not absurd or impossible, i can't find it more than extremely unlikely._


----------



## Akitō (Jan 11, 2014)

Reading this same thread on milleniumforums makes me realize how reasonable this section is. I don't agree with some of the opinions here, but at least they're mostly not out of the realm of reason. You've got members over there arguing that Vista would low-diff Doflamingo.


----------



## RF (Jan 11, 2014)

That was a pretty mind-boggling thread indeed. Didnt't think top tier wank was _that_ bad over there.


----------



## tanman (Jan 11, 2014)

Yup. They're hardcore tierists over there.
I lol'd at Vista having better feats than Doflamingo being something repeated over and over again. So much one could learn to believe it.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

That's because Vista does have better feats then Doflamingo.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jan 12, 2014)

Doflamingo spanks Vista, lmao.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Vista should win with low difficulty.


----------



## RF (Jan 12, 2014)

Damn man


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

pepper your jimmies E


----------



## Basat (Jan 24, 2014)

I think Doffy takes this.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 25, 2014)

Ok seriously, wtf is with the _massive_ downplaying of Whitebeard Commanders on these forums.

Diamond Jozu getting _one-shotted_ by Overheat...? An attack that _Law_ was even able to stop for christ's sake.....is this a damn joke?


----------



## Nox (Jan 25, 2014)

Doflamingo. Mid High Difficulty.


----------



## Freechoice (Jan 25, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Nothing Vista has done so far would put Doffy down.



Nothing Dofla has done so far would put Vista down.

.


Either way.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 25, 2014)

Vista mid-max high diff


----------



## duhjuanwhowins (Jan 25, 2014)

Doflamingo is admiral level now


----------



## Smooth Bear (Jan 25, 2014)

Parasite is too hax. Until we see how Luffy handles it Im giving this to Doflamingo.


----------



## Nox (Jan 25, 2014)

What said:


> Nothing Dofla has done so far would put Vista down.
> 
> .
> 
> ...



Really. The fact that the OP has not mentioned intel for booth sides, the combination of Parasite and Overheat is looking much favorable than what Vista has done.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 25, 2014)

Deus Machina said:


> Really. The fact that the OP has not mentioned intel for booth sides, the combination of Parasite and Overheat is looking much favorable than what Vista has done.



The same Overheat that Law stopped?


----------



## Bonly (Jan 26, 2014)

I'd say Dofla should win, Vista doesn't have the feats+portrayal to beat Dofla yet.


----------



## tanman (Jan 26, 2014)

Law didn't stop Overheat.
He teleported Sanji away from it.

*More Generally*
The root of this Doflamingo underestimation is, of course, the downplaying of characters like Luffy, Law, Vergo, Smoker, and so on in relation to Mihawk, the admirals, or the Yonkou. Characters that the main cast is fighting will never compare to characters whose feats exist almost solely in the imagination of the overzealous reader. So Vista, a downright trivial character, is put above someone with all around better feats because of an equally trivial clash with a very strong character almost entirely to reaffirm a preconceived notion that the central antagonists are and will continue to be infinitely beyond the main cast.

Now I'm not saying that the upper bounds of strength have been fully explored, but i am saying that Vista is clearly not the future of this manga.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 26, 2014)

tanman said:


> Law didn't stop Overheat.
> He teleported Sanji away from it.



*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 26, 2014)

tanman said:


> Law didn't stop Overheat.
> He teleported Sanji away from it. Unless you're under the impression that Vista can teleport, I don't really see your point.



Well that was the first one , he was talking about the 2nd.

@Avalon
But, Law could only stop it because he was not trapped by strings. A trapped Law would have been dead.


----------



## tanman (Jan 26, 2014)

Ah, I see. Thought he was speaking of that other moment.._I was wrong on that point._ But it was clear in that case that Law was benefiting from such a precise attack being used to target the ship from a distance rather than him up close and that attack being used while Law's movement was unrestricted.

The point I was alluding to in the following paragraph is that Law doing something does not make that thing an easy matter for someone like Vista, whose feats dwarf that of characters of even Law's level, and stands entirely on the hype of his role in the Whitebeard Pirates to be put above or adjacent to characters of such a level.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 26, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> @Avalon
> But, Law could only stop it because he was not trapped by strings. A trapped Law would have been dead.


If Law was ever caught by Parasite, it doesn't mean that he automatically get's killed by Donflamingo's next attack. There's always a chance of an object being nearby for him to swap out with using Shambles.

You can't just keep saying that Donflamingo automatically one-shots everyone he catches while ignoring their abilities.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 26, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> If Law was ever caught by Parasite, it doesn't mean that he automatically get's killed by Donflamingo's next attack. There's always a chance of an object being nearby for him to swap out with using Shambles.
> 
> You can't just keep saying that Donflamingo automatically one-shots everyone he catches while ignoring their abilities.



well yea,there is a possibility Law could be able to swap out from the string but its very unlikely imo. So, i did not consider that. U may bring up Law was able to shambles out of Smokers grab as a solid implication of Law being able to go free but DD's string is different. It stops ur movement completely  and u cant move an inch unlike a normal grabbing.


----------



## tanman (Jan 26, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> If Law was ever caught by Parasite, it doesn't mean that he automatically get's killed by Donflamingo's next attack. There's always a chance of an object being nearby for him to swap out with using Shambles.
> 
> You can't just keep saying that Donflamingo automatically one-shots everyone he catches while ignoring their abilities.



And of Vista's abilities?


----------



## Canute87 (Jan 26, 2014)

once we find out the method to break out of flamingo's grip i'll get back to you.


----------



## MrWano (Jan 26, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> once we find out the method to break out of flamingo's grip i'll get back to you.



Inb4 it has something to do with CoC or the gomu gomu no mi, none of which Vista has.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 26, 2014)

You guys honestly overrate Parasite and Overheat, Overheat was stopped by a tired and injured Law.

Parasite was literally used on Dressrosa army fodder. 

There's no way Overheat or Parasite are even close to Dofla's best moves anyways.


----------



## Canute87 (Jan 26, 2014)

MrWano said:


> Inb4 it has something to do with CoC or the gomu gomu no mi, none of which Vista has.



Nah nothing like that.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 26, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> but DD's string is different. It stops ur movement completely  and u cant move an inch unlike a normal grabbing.


And this stop's Law from activating Room to escape because....?


----------



## tanman (Jan 26, 2014)

Avalon said:


> Parasite was literally used on Dressrosa army fodder.



And Jozu. 



Canute87 said:


> once we find out the method to break out of flamingo's grip i'll get back to you.



Not when we get actual feats, maybe even actual moves, from Vista?
Considering Jozu couldn't break out of Parasite, I think it's pretty unlikely that CoA or physical strength is the answer. The only other thing that Vista has a part from that is swordsmanship and Doflamingo, being Luffy's main arc villain, is unlikely to be defeated by swordsmanship. *So, to me, it seems that the only hope we have of giving this fight to Vista more times than not is getting more feats from Vista, not from Doflamingo.*


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 27, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> And this stop's Law from activating Room to escape because....?


The first problem would be:
Law needs to use his hand to create room and his body belongs to DD


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 27, 2014)

^Riiight....because Law's a ninja that needs to perform specific hand signs to activate Room and Shambles.  

/endsarcasm

On a more serious note, Room would most likely be activated at the start of the fight anyways.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 27, 2014)

tanman said:


> And Jozu.



Parasite wasn't used until the Dressrosa arc man.

At least I think Parasite and the unammed move he used on Sanji, Jozu and the Vice Admirals are different moves, though I could be wrong. 

He also caught Jozu off-guard which can't be ignored.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 28, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> ^Riiight....because Law's a ninja that needs to perform specific hand signs to activate Room and Shambles.
> 
> /endsarcasm



I guess Law never used any hand sign to activate his room or some named moves. Oh wait


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 28, 2014)

I specifically mentioned only Room and Shambles, not Tact.

Law always starts off with Room and it'll remain active whether he's immobilized or not, which mean he can still use Shambles (which doesn't require any hand gestures) to escape if he ever gets caught.


----------



## Snowless (Jan 28, 2014)

Why. Is. Vista. Not. Banned.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 28, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> I specifically mentioned only Room and Shambles, not Tact.
> 
> Law always starts off with Room and it'll remain active whether he's immobilized or not, which mean he can still use Shambles (*which doesn't require any hand gestures*) to escape if he ever gets caught.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 28, 2014)

Look at this .

Both of Law's hands are grabbed on to Sanji + CC (which means he couldn't perform hand gestures) and he still was able to use Shambles.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 28, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Look at this .
> 
> Both of Law's hands are grabbed on to Sanji + CC (which means he couldn't perform hand gestures) and he still was able to use Shambles.



he needs only 2 finger (written E & A in my sig *left hand*) to perform Shambles sign which he can easily do while touching/grabbing Sanji with other 3 finger. (If u zoom in u can even see the implication of it.)
watch this video and look at Law's hand at 2:00. He needs only 2 finger to perform the Shamble moves.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tZ66pDYjm8[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 28, 2014)

It honestly looks like he just used his whole hand to grab onto both of them (don't really know how you can get a good grip on someone using only 3 fingers).

And how many fingers he needs for Shambles is irrelevant. The point was that he still used it without moving his fingers around in a gesture (since his fingers weren't moving while grabbing both Sanji and CC), which means he can still escape if he's ever immobilized by DD.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 28, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> It honestly looks like he just used his whole hand to grab onto both of them (don't really know how you can get a good grip on someone using only 3 fingers).
> 
> And how many fingers he needs for Shambles is irrelevant. The point was that he still used it without moving his fingers around in a gesture (since his fingers weren't moving while grabbing both Sanji and CC), which means he can still escape if he's ever immobilized by DD.



The grip never needs to be _good_ (for Sanji) cause Law did not need to carry Sanji's weight . Sanji was stuck there remember ? (like a bug sticking in a spider web) .All Law needed was to touch Sanji and perform Shambles with 2 finger (for that specific situation left hands 2 finger). Which exactly what he did.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 28, 2014)

You guys are fighting over Law's hands. He used his hands. Period.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 28, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> The grip never needs to be _good_ (for Sanji) cause Law did not need to carry Sanji's weight . Sanji was stuck there remember ? (like a bug sticking in a spider web) .All Law needed was to touch Sanji and perform Shambles with 2 finger (for that specific situation left hands 2 finger). Which exactly what he did.


Again....the point of that scan was to show that Shambles doesn't require him to move his fingers around in a gesture, not if it required two fingers to use or not.


----------



## Rob (Jan 28, 2014)

>Sees Vista vs. Doflamingo thread
>Enters
>Sees a bunch of stupid ass posts dealing with Law's fucking .... Hands? 
>Leaves

I'm gonna' make a Jozu vs. SN thread... Hopefully people will start talking about Crocodile's coat...


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 28, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> I'm gonna' make a Jozu vs. SN thread... Hopefully people will start talking about Crocodile's coat...


The hell is this? Crocodile's coat isn't relevant to anything.....like at all.

The discussion we were having was to point out that Law can still activate some of his abilities (which just so happens to involve his hands) if he ever gets caught by Donflamingo strings.


----------



## Rob (Jan 28, 2014)

And this is a Vista vs. Dofla thread


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 28, 2014)

And Law was brought up.

Just like Jozu was brought up earlier in the thread. Where were your pointless comments then?


----------



## Lawliet (Jan 28, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Look at this .
> 
> Both of Law's hands are grabbed on to Sanji + CC (which means he couldn't perform hand gestures) and he still was able to use Shambles.



You dumb or something?


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 28, 2014)

Get lost troll.


----------



## Quuon (Jan 29, 2014)

Doflamingo wins.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 29, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Again....the point of that scan was to show that Shambles doesn't require him to move his fingers around in a gesture, not if it required two fingers to use or not.



I just explained to u how Law used his hand sign, more than once so far.So, either u r extremely dumb for not seeing this very simple thing or u r in denial . I am guessing the later cause no one is that dumb.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 29, 2014)

For the last time....I'm not denying that he uses hand gestures for some of his abilities.

I'm saying that Shambles doesn't absolutely require him to move his fingers around in a gesture because it's literally impossible to move your hands like  (its 3 fingers not 2, otherwise his thumb would've been clenched just like his pinky and ring finger) while grabbing onto someone's arm...but he still used Shambles anyways to tele to the ship as shown in this .

And since he doesn't need to move his fingers around for that specific gesture to activate Shambles, he can still escape if he's ever immobilized by Parasite. Understand now???


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 29, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> For the last time....I'm not denying that he uses hand gestures for some of his abilities.
> 
> I'm saying that Shambles doesn't absolutely require him to move his fingers around in a gesture because it's literally impossible to move your hands like  (its 3 fingers not 2, otherwise his thumb would've been clenched just like his pinky and ring finger) while grabbing onto someone's arm...but he still used Shambles anyways to tele to the ship as shown in this .
> 
> And since he doesn't need to move his fingers around for that specific gesture to activate Shambles, he can still escape if he's ever immobilized by Parasite. Understand now???



it does not need 3 finger , just 2. If u r still not clear , re watch the video i provided.
Even if Shambles needs 3 finger (which is wrong) Law could still perform Shambles while touching Sanji cause (i am telling u this for the last time) Law did not need to carry Sanji's weight ,all he needed was to touch him. And he can move his finger whenever he wants.
If u still dont get it. Try grabbing our right arm with ur left arm and see if u can move ur fingers.

*this is my last post on this point.Cause, If u dont get it by now u never will*


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 29, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> it does not need 3 finger , just 2. If u r still not clear , re watch the video i provided.
> Even if Shambles needs 3 finger (which is wrong) Law could still perform Shambles while touching Sanji cause (i am telling u this for the last time) Law did not need to carry Sanji's weight ,all he needed was to touch him. And he can move his finger whenever he wants.
> If u still dont get it. Try grabbing our right arm with ur left arm and see if u can move ur fingers.
> 
> *this is my last post on this point.Cause, If u dont get it by now u never will*


1) It has nothing to do with carrying weight.

2) You should really start using the manga instead of the anime to back up your claims. The anime has Law crossing his fingers at 2:00 for whatever reason and he doesn't even do that at all in the manga as shown in this  of the exact same scene. 

3) It's 3 fingers that are always shown, not 2. Look at , , and . Practically every time he makes a hand a gesture for Shambles, he moves three of his fingers. If it was two, then one of his fingers would've been clenched and not moved just like his ring finger + pinky (similar to Tact where all but 1 finger is clenched). That being said, moving 3 of his fingers isn't always mandatory for activating Shambles like I've already explained.

4) I can somewhat grab (if you could even call it that) my arm with 2-3 fingers and while I can move my fingers to a certain degree, I sure as hell can't do . Law couldn't do that specific hand gesture either  since he was grabbed onto Sanji *but he was still able to use Shambles anyways*.  

The fact that he used Shambles there to get on the ship without performing that specific hand gesture suggests that moving his hands isn't absolutely mandatory to activate Shambles, which also means that he can use it to escape if he's ever caught by Parasite. That's the key point I've been trying to illustrate here this whole time and if you still can't see that now than we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 29, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> 1) It has nothing to do with carrying weight.


Yes, it does. If he was not carrying Sanji's weight then he does not need to grab Sanji at all. Simply touching Sanji with his palm would be more than enough.



> 2) You should really start using the manga instead of the anime to back up your claims. The anime has Law crossing his fingers at 2:00 for whatever reason and he doesn't even do that at all in the manga as shown in this  of the exact same scene.



In Manga thing never moves and we always see a still picture. and from a still picture its not clear if Law is moving his fingers or just hand or rotating it or whatever. Thats why anime helps us understand it clearly.



> 3) It's 3 fingers that are always shown, not 2. Look at , , and . Practically every time he makes a hand a gesture for Shambles, he moves three of his fingers. If it was two, then one of his fingers would've been clenched and not moved just like his ring finger + pinky (similar to Tact where all but 1 finger is clenched). That being said, moving 3 of his fingers isn't always mandatory for activating Shambles like I've already explained


.
well u could be right about using 3 fingers but i dont see it . It makes more sense to me that only 2 finger is used.1 finger indicates his initial position and another finger indicates final position (where he will teleport to). I cant see what is his thumbs function in here other than that being his natural position.



> 4) I can somewhat grab (if you could even call it that) my arm with 2-3 fingers and while I can move my fingers to a certain degree, I sure as hell can't do . Law couldn't do that specific hand gesture either  since he was grabbed onto Sanji *but he was still able to use Shambles anyways*.



If u can move ur fingers ( 2/3 fingers ) then performing Shambles is very much possible.



> *The fact* that he used Shambles there to get on the ship without performing that specific hand gesture suggests that moving his hands isn't absolutely mandatory to activate Shambles, which also means that he can use it to escape if he's ever caught by Parasite. That's the key point I've been trying to illustrate here this whole time and if you still can't see that now than we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on.



u think it is fact but it is_ not actually a fact_


----------

