# Sound 5 VS Grandpa Hiruzen



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

Location : Forest of death
Distance : 15 meters
Mindset : IC
Knowledge : Reputation
Restrictions : None
Conditions : Hiruzen is his part 1 self. Kimi won't keel over and randomly die. But his performance is the same as it was against Lee and Gaara.

Who wins ?


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## Alex Payne (Jun 30, 2015)

Hiruzen blitzes Sound 4 and then breaks every Kimi's bone with Enma.


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## Pocalypse (Jun 30, 2015)

Hiruzen wins low diff. 

Enma can tank any attacks thrown at him, even defended against Hashirama's attacks which are all stronger than the Sound 5's attacks and is strong enough to push the Kyuubi back.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

Are these remarks based on hype or feats ?
Just curious.


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## Rocky (Jun 30, 2015)

Hokage portrayal and feats of keeping up with Orochimaru, who could flex his chakra and nearly bring tears to Kakashi's eyes.

Kimimaro's the only one who could be considered near Preskip Kakashi's tier, and both could solo the Sound 4 alone. Hiruzen stomps Kimimaro and the Chunin die in the crossfire.


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## Amol (Jun 30, 2015)

God of Shinobi stomps them with unholy amount of rape. 
He sort of stalemated with Orochimaru.
So unless anyone think Sound 5 are stronger than their boss, they gets their asses kicked .


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## Mercurial (Jun 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Hokage portrayal and feats of keeping up with Orochimaru, who could flex his chakra and nearly bring tears to Kakashi's eyes.
> 
> Kimimaro's the only one who could be considered near Preskip Kakashi's tier, and both could solo the Sound 4 alone. Hiruzen stomps Kimimaro and the Chunin die in the crossfire.



Part 1 Kakashi was said to be Konoha's best ninja in databook 1 (at the time of chunin exam/Konoha invasion) and Konoha's best jutsu master (chapter 113 or 114), above old Hiruzen; he also is said to be a tough match for Kisame. He didn't have any fear to fight both Itachi and Kisame, with Itachi alone being far, far above Orochimaru. 

Hiruzen stomps the Sound 4, tougher fight against Kimimaro.


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## Amol (Jun 30, 2015)

Old Hiruzen was definitely above part 1 Kakashi in every way .
Hokage > Jonin (only in Part 1 of course).
Just look at how they both 'fought' Orochimaru .


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 30, 2015)

hiruzen makes 1 clone & runs thru them w/ just enma. they fall like dominoes until kimimaro, whose jutsu are not compatible w/ the others for support & the like.

head trauma ends it before bone forest.


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## Ghost (Jun 30, 2015)

Amol said:


> Old Hiruzen was definitely above part 1 Kakashi* in every way .*
> Hokage > Jonin (only in Part 1 of course).



uh, no. 


> Just look at how they both 'fought' Orochimaru .



Kakashi fearing Oro was OOC. Few months later Kakashi takes on both Itachi and Kisame despite knowing that he far weaker than Itachi.


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## Hand Banana (Jun 30, 2015)

Grandpa goes to sleep and wakes up with everyone attempting suicide.


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## Mercurial (Jun 30, 2015)

Amol said:


> Old Hiruzen was definitely above part 1 Kakashi in every way .
> Hokage > Jonin (only in Part 1 of course).
> Just look at how they both 'fought' Orochimaru .



Shippuden Jonin Kakashi being >>> (>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you count DMS + Rikudo chakra) Hokage Kakashi makes rank point completely moot.

Itachi had to use the Mangekyo to finish the fight against part 1 Kakashi as quick as possible, knowing that it would have worsened his eye sight and lowered his chakra; kid Itachi could troll casually troll Orochimaru like it was child's play, literally. So Orochimaru was surely above part 1 Kakashi but the gap is not that much. Orochimaru completely toyed with old Hiruzen, he then played too much and was fucked up by Shiki Fujin. Databook hype and manga hype also disagree with you; by feats part 1 Kakashi is a lot faster and with Sharingan precognition and feints he could Raikiri old Hiruzen, that has even lower chakra to use for his jutsu than he has.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 30, 2015)

Hiruzen is probably going to lose, on account of his stamina being too low to handle so many opponents at once.

The Sound 4 fighting together were able to defeat two Tokubetsu Jounin, both of whom were faster and more agile than Hiruzen is. Granted, Hiruzen is significantly stronger than Genma and Raido, but he's also fighting Kimimaro, who was said to be stronger than all of the Sound 4 put together. He's essentially fighting a High-Jounin level opponent and a bunch of Tokubetsu Jounin levels by himself, whenever he himself is just a Low-Kage level.

His best bet is to use Kage Bunshin and try and defeat them individually. That might work well against the weaker Jirobo, Tayuya and Kidomaru, but given that clones are weaker than the original, that won't be successful when he's engaging Kimimaro in CQC. Kimimaro is about as skilled in taijutsu as Hiruzen is, and a full 1.5 ahead of him in speed, so he will defeat a Kage Bunshin very quickly at close range. In the end, Bunshins will divide up his chakra and make him keel over from exhaustion more quickly, especially when he's simultaneously swinging a giant Enma staff around for prolonged periods of time.

On the matter of Enma, he could split up into various staffs for Hiruzen's Kage Bunshin to wield. Furthermore, he can protect Hiruzen from pretty much anything in the Sound 5's arsenal with the _Kongō Rōheki_. So there's that, at least. 

Hiruzen's other option is using elemental blasts. Though, if Sakon and Ukon summon a Rashomon gate then that won't work either.. unless Hiruzen managed to split the Sound 5 up with Bunshin, and _then_ use the elemental blasts. In that case, he could kill a few, but would still be left with Kimimaro (who can protect himself with bone armour) and Sakon and Ukon. 

If it was a 1v1 then Hiruzen would defeat Sakon and Ukon, and eventually defeat Kimimaro, albeit with difficulty. However, in this match up Hiruzen has to divide his chakra up with Bunshins to defeat three additional opponents. If he has enough stamina left to handle Sakon, Ukon and Kidomaru after that, then he will win.. but I would bet that Hiruzen runs out of gas trying to getting past Kimimaro's bone armour.
​​


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## Mercurial (Jun 30, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> uh, no.
> 
> 
> Kakashi fearing Oro was OOC. Few months later Kakashi takes on both Itachi and Kisame despite knowing that he far weaker than Itachi.



Exactly this.


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## Mercurial (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Hiruzen is going to lose.
> 
> The Sound 4 fighting together were able to defeat two Tokubetsu Jounin, both of whom were faster and more agile than Hiruzen is. Granted, Hiruzen is significantly stronger than Genma and Raido, but he's also fighting Kimimaro, who was said to be stronger than all of the Sound 4 put together. He's essentially fighting a High-Jounin level opponent and a bunch of Tokubetsu Jounin levels by himself, whenever he himself is just a Low-Kage level.
> 
> ...



Those special jonin were out of chakra after a tiring mission and fought them 2 vs 4... you are conveniently forgetting that. And old Hiruzen > Genma + Raido, and if they could push the Sound Four to CS2 and being heavily tired when they fought with the lowest of their chakra and being already tired and fighting with half their number, I'd guess full health Genma + Raido > Sound Four.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 30, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Kakashi fearing Oro was OOC. Few months later Kakashi takes on both Itachi and Kisame despite knowing that he far weaker than Itachi.



A few months later Kakashi _backed up Asuma and Kurenai_ against Itachi and Kisame, and in Part 2 speculated that the reason Akatsuki stayed away from Naruto over the time skip was because Jiraiya was with him.

Kakashi fearing Orochimaru wasn't OOC. Kakashi would have freaked out at the prospect of facing Itachi too if he had realized the true extent of his abilities.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 30, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Those special jonin were out of chakra after a tiring mission



No they weren't.



> and fought them 2 vs 4... you are conveniently forgetting that.



I conveniently forgot nothing.



> And old Hiruzen > Genma + Raido,



Which I said in my OP, showing that you didn't actually read it.



> and if they could push the Sound Four to CS2 and being heavily tired when they fought with the lowest of their chakra and being already tired and fighting with half their number, I'd guess full health Genma + Raido > Sound Four.



Except that Genma and Raido showed absolutely no signs of chakra exhaustion at all whatsoever, and therefore were fighting at their peak.


This is why I never reply to your posts ​​


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## Alex Payne (Jun 30, 2015)

That whole Jonin Team were returning from a long and exhausting mission. They were resting right before detecting Sound 4.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 30, 2015)

Except when they were in the hospital they explicitly told Tsunade that being tired was the only reason they lost.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 30, 2015)

Hiruzen fought off basically 3 Kages. Weakened ET Senju Bros were still performing on that level considering ANBU observers were shitting themselves at the sight of them throwing jutsu around. You have here 4 scrubs who together are weaker than Kimimaro. So their "hax" abilities+teamwork were useless when fighting someone significantly stronger than them. Kimimaro himself ain't doing a thing to Hiruzen except lasting for a while due to his bloodline.


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## Reznor (Jun 30, 2015)

Hiruzen no diff.
He probably oneshots most of them nearly immediately.

If he summons Enma and let Enma fight alone, he'd still have a good chance.


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## LostSelf (Jun 30, 2015)

Nah, Hiruzen doesn't lose. Let's ignore feats (yeah, crazy, huh?) for a minute and let's go to portrayal. The sound 4 only defeated two Jounins because they were tired, and they needed to use cursed seal and surprise them to win.

Those Jounin that are almost fodder. Kimimaro's the only one that can give Hiruen a fight, because the Sound 4 is going to be stomped horribly before they can do much. And even then, i have a hard time seeing Kimimaro defeat Hiruzen in a one on one fight.

The gap between Jounin and Chuunin was painfully obvious in part 1. 4 Chuunin are shit to a Kage, even one of the level of part 1 Hiruzen, who stands above the rest of the Konoha Shinobi in part 1 (Save the mighty Gaikage and his 7th gate).


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## Mercurial (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> *No they weren't.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...







Of course you don't reply. Reasonings based on actual manga facts instead of fanfictions or completely twisted interpretations may hurt your butthurtness. Read the manga please "they weren't out of chakra and they could fight at their peak"... please.



FlamingRain said:


> A few months later Kakashi _backed up Asuma and Kurenai_ against Itachi and Kisame, and in Part 2 speculated that the reason Akatsuki stayed away from Naruto over the time skip was because Jiraiya was with him.
> 
> Kakashi fearing Orochimaru wasn't OOC. Kakashi would have freaked out at the prospect of facing Itachi too if he had realized the true extent of his abilities.



Asuma and Kurenai were fodder meat. Kakashi saved both Asuma from Kisame and Kurenai from Itachi. Part 1 Kakashi was recognised as a very tough match for Kisame, and don't say that Kishimoto didn't think Kisame as strong as he was in Shippuden, since Itachi especially talked about Kisame's "big and flashy jutsu" referring clearly to the powerful Suiton ninjutsu he showed later in Shippuden.

Except that he perfectly knew them, he even adviced the others against them. He just didn't know about Mangekyo. Granted that Itachi steamrolled Orochimaru without any need for the Mangekyo.


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## thechickensage (Jun 30, 2015)

Hiuzen stomps...sound four were killed by genin lol

They were part 1 villains just superior enough to our protagonists to raise the stakes in the 1v1 fights

Not even close to kage level.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Kakashi fearing Oro was OOC. Few months later Kakashi takes on both Itachi and Kisame despite knowing that he far weaker than Itachi.



Kakashi was in a dark room alone with Orochimaru, and by all means Orochimaru is a creepier guy than Itachi. 

Against Itachi, he had 2 other Jounin backing him up, and they were out in the city. He might have also known back up was on the way.

And going by Jiraiya/Asuma/Kurenai's behavior around Itachi, they had absolutely no idea how powerful Itachi was. Probably neither did Kakashi.


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## Reznor (Jun 30, 2015)

Sound 4 needed their maximum amount of power to beat half as many Special Jounin at their weakened state.
Realize how many qualifiers that is should clearly show how high Special Jounin level is. 

Hiruzen was stronger than the other Kage of the time. Pre-Hashirama retcon, he was also stronger than all the previous Kage as well.


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## Amol (Jun 30, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Shippuden Jonin Kakashi being >>> (>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you count DMS + Rikudo chakra) Hokage Kakashi makes rank point completely moot.
> 
> Itachi had to use the Mangekyo to finish the fight against part 1 Kakashi as quick as possible, knowing that it would have worsened his eye sight and lowered his chakra; kid Itachi could troll casually troll Orochimaru like it was child's play, literally. So Orochimaru was surely above part 1 Kakashi but the gap is not that much. Orochimaru completely toyed with old Hiruzen, he then played too much and was fucked up by Shiki Fujin. Databook hype and manga hype also disagree with you; by feats part 1 Kakashi is a lot faster and with Sharingan precognition and feints he could Raikiri old Hiruzen, that has even lower chakra to use for his jutsu than he has.



Reading Comprehension .
I literally said in Part 1. How strong Kakashi was in Part 2 is irrelevant to the point I was making.
I never thought I would find a worse fanboy than Extravlad and then I read your post. He atleast unlike you doesn't try to make Zoro stronger than everyone alive.
Do you even *try* to hide your bias? 
Then again you are same guy who think Kakashi is The Strongest after Kaguya. 
Kakashi shitted his pants when he encountered Orochimaru. If he was stronger than Hiruzen(who defeated Oro or stalemated if you want to be technical) then he wouldn't have been sweating just by Oro's Killing Intent. He would have defeated Oro if he was capable of that. He would have atleast engaged in fight untill help arrives if he was really close to Oro's level. But he didn't because he knew that he would die immediately as soon as fight starts.
Part 1 Kakashi was not on Sannin level though it is not much surprise that you actually believe that Kakashi was close to Sannin level. 
Itachi one shotted Kakashi because he was just strong enough to do that. Only a true fanboy would try to twist fact of getting one shotted into something glorious.
Hiruzen disarmed Orochimaru in their Taijitsu/Kenjutsu fight. He is no slouch in physical department.
Oro was just toying with Hiruzen? Bullshit.
If anything Hiruzen was holding back/not going bloodlusted enough against Oro because he was his beloved student.
That was literally the point of their fight:
Hiruzen not making same mistake he did in the past(letting his emotions get better of him). It took lecture from Enma to snap Hiruzen out of his dilemma.
Manga hyping Part 1 Kakashi being superior to God of Shinobi(manga's word not mine) ?
By all means prove that.
As things stands now Hiruzen breaks Kakashi's head with his Kurama pushing staff .


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 30, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Of course you don't reply. Reasonings based on actual manga facts instead of fanfictions or completely twisted interpretations may hurt your butthurtness. Read the manga please "they weren't out of chakra and they could fight at their peak"... please.



In your defense, I didn't know Genma ever said that he was explicitly low on chakra. I overlooked that, so I concede that they were not fighting at their absolute peak.

The problem is that you outright said he had _ran out_ of chakra, when in reality both Genma and Raido weren't so much as breaking a sweat before they engaged the Sound 4. They may not have been at their peak capabilities, but they were still in good physical condition and capable of fighting.​​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Sound 4 needed their maximum amount of power to beat half as many Special Jounin at their weakened state.
> Realize how many qualifiers that is should clearly show how high Special Jounin level is.
> 
> Hiruzen was stronger than the other Kage of the time. Pre-Hashirama retcon, he was also stronger than all the previous Kage as well.



The thing is, going by hype and portrayal, this is pretty one sided. 

Although going by feats, this doesn't look that one sided at all.

Hiruzen's power was relatively weak to the hype he got. And that hype got retconned anyways. He ended up being portrayed as the weakest Hokage.


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## The Undying (Jun 30, 2015)

Hiruzen isn't "blitzing" anyone (people need to give this speed shit a rest) but he'll defeat the Sound 4 quite handily given his portrayal and showings. Afterwards Kimimaro will probably give him a bit of trouble, but only enough to be a minor nuisance at best. He takes it with relatively low difficulty, maybe medium at most.


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## Bonly (Jun 30, 2015)

I'd say this depends on how well the sound five synergy come together with all those abilities along with how they would approach the battle knowing it's Hiruzen they are going up against.


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## Six (Jun 30, 2015)

Tayuya lol genjutsu


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 30, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Those Jounin that are almost fodder.



They are obviously not fodder or even nearly fodder if they pushed the Sound 4 to their limits without even being in peak condition. Genma and Raido were taught Hiraishin by Minato too, and served as both his and Tsunade's personal bodyguards. Genma was even declared proctor of the Final Chuunin Exam and fought Baki, who was a Jounin, and higher-ranked than he was.




> The gap between Jounin and Chuunin was painfully obvious in part 1.



It was, but the Sound 4 are not Chuunin level, they're closer to Tokubetsu Jounin.  



> part 1 Hiruzen, who stands above the rest of the Konoha Shinobi in part 1 (Save the mighty Gaikage and his 7th gate)



And Jiraiya and Tsunade.​​


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## LostSelf (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> They are obviously not fodder or even nearly fodder if they pushed the Sound 4 to their limits without even being in peak condition. Genma and Raido were taught Hiraishin by Minato too, and served as both his and Tsunade's personal bodyguards. Genma was even declared proctor of the Final Chuunin Exam and fought Baki, who was a Jounin, and higher-ranked than he was.​




They are almost fodder in relevance, wich is my point . Pushing the sound 4is a testament of how wide the gap is, wich doesn't help them in this matchup. Gennin/Chunnin were taking on them. Sasuke was taking on the 4 for quite some time in desfavorable conditions (4 vs 1).

Those same Jounin were tired and with low chakra. Having low chakra greatly diminishes the physical abilities, unless you are a chakra beast like Kisame and Naruto (in wich low chakra for them would be a lot, yet). But just looking at how Tsunade's condition was after CST and healing the village, thus, without much chakra, we can at least deduce how gimped they were.

Hiruzen would be able to stomp those two-fresh Jounin (and probably others), Jounins that, if didn't were tired and  with little chakra, would've manhandled the Sound 4 with minimal issues. Hiruzen happens to be 3 ranks above those guys, and look whatthey needed to do in order to defeat two guys with only one rank above (or less).




> It was, but the Sound 4 are not Chuunin level, they're closer to Tokubetsu Jounin.



Considering that CHouji defeated one, and even with some years after he was still Chunnin, i don't think these guyes are near Jounin level. But it's not their level that matters, is the huge difference between a Kage and them. 



> And Jiraiya and Tsunade.


​
Indeed. They weren't in Konoha by the time Hiruzen died. Therefore i didn't name them for that reason.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 30, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Asuma and Kurenai were fodder meat.



Against Itachi, so was Kakashi.



> Part 1 Kakashi was recognised as a very tough match for Kisame



Who in turn admitted that a Sannin was in a different league compared to himself.



> Except that he perfectly knew them, he even adviced the others against them. He just didn't know about Mangekyo. Granted that Itachi steamrolled Orochimaru without any need for the Mangekyo.


 
Prove it, then.

The fact that Orochimaru was already inside a Genjutsu proves that we didn't see the entire fight.

And again, even by Part 2 Kakashi figured that the reason Akatsuki took so long to make a move on Naruto was because Jiraiya was with him.

Had Kakashi known how strong Itachi really was he would have been petrified.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 30, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> They are almost fodder in relevance, wich is my point . Pushing the sound 4is a testament of how wide the gap is, wich doesn't help them in this matchup. Gennin/Chunnin were taking on them. Sasuke was taking on the 4 for quite some time in desfavorable conditions (4 vs 1).




Plot relevance = / = power. The Sound 4 that fought Sasuke were toying with him, the Sound 4 that fought Genma and Raido used their CS2 and went all out. 



> Those same Jounin were tired and with low chakra. Having low chakra greatly diminishes the physical abilities, unless you are a chakra beast like Kisame and Naruto (in wich low chakra for them would be a lot, yet). But just looking at how Tsunade's condition was after CST and healing the village, thus, without much chakra, we can at least deduce how gimped they were.



Except that they weren't even nearly as gimped as Tsunade, because we saw them fighting the Sound 4 and they weren't even breaking a sweat, whereas Tsunade was on the point of falling comatose. 



> Hiruzen would be able to stomp those two-fresh Jounin (and probably others), Jounins that, if didn't were tired and  with little chakra, would've manhandled the Sound 4 with minimal issues. Hiruzen happens to be 3 ranks above those guys, and look whatthey needed to do in order to defeat two guys with only one rank above (or less).



He would be able to beat Genma and Raido for sure, and he'd be able to beat the Sound 4 by himself too. The problem is that Kimimaro is _at most_ a tier below him, at the High-Jounin level, and even then, Hiruzen is at the bottom of the Low Kage tier imo, so he really isn't really _that_ much stronger than him. Kimimaro, with back-up from four Tokubetsu Jounin (as opposed to two, like Genma and Raido), is quite a lot for any Low-Kage level to deal with, never mind a weaker one like Old Hiruzen.



> Considering that CHouji defeated one, and even with some years after he was still Chunnin, i don't think these guyes are near Jounin level. But it's not their level that matters, is the huge difference between a Kage and them.



I disagree. Chuunin level is reserved for the likes of Iruka, Mizuki, Yashamaru, Kotetsu and Izumo. With his Chō Baika no Jutsu and Red Pill, Sasuke Retrieval Arc Chouji was a level above them. Yet Jirobo pushed Chouji to the limits, granted he was weaker than him, but he was admittedly the weakest of the Sound 4. The others are even stronger than him.

And their level does matter, because there are _five_ of them. Hiruzen can't afford to do crowd control with his average chakra reserves, and in CS2 they can at least divide his attention, if nothing else. Kimimaro could outright defeat him.​​


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## Reznor (Jun 30, 2015)

How is Kimimaro High Jounin


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## Rocky (Jun 30, 2015)

Hiruzen fought (and nearly drew) against Orochimaru and two Kage-level zombies, yet he'll have trouble with the Sound 5?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 30, 2015)

Hiruzen could beat them with killing intent.


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

Clone + Shiki Fūjin takes care of Kimi, who is the only legitimate threat here. The rest get stomped.

Grampa Hiruzen low to mid diff.


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## Bonly (Jun 30, 2015)

Reznor said:


> How is Kimimaro High Jounin



Part one Kakashi was a High Jounin level character or as fans call it Elite Jounin level. Kabuto was said to be equal to Kakashi and Kimi was said to be stronger then Kabuto so that( along with his feats and stats and other hype) should place him in the High Jounin tier


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## Reznor (Jun 30, 2015)

Who said Kimimaro > Kabuto?


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## Reznor (Jun 30, 2015)

Let's also remember this condition: 


> Kimi won't keel over and randomly die. But his performance is the same as it was against Lee and Gaara.


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## Bonly (Jun 30, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Who said Kimimaro > Kabuto?



Kabuto himself said such


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## Reznor (Jun 30, 2015)

Do you have the page?


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## The Undying (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Chuunin level is reserved for the likes of Iruka, Mizuki, Yashamaru, Kotetsu and Izumo. With his Chō Baika no Jutsu and Red Pill, Sasuke Retrieval Arc Chouji was a level above them. Yet Jirobo pushed Chouji to the limits, granted he was weaker than him, but he was admittedly the weakest of the Sound 4. The others are even stronger than him.



I don't see how pushing Chouji to use his red pill means that Iruka, Yashamaru, Kotetsu or Izumo wouldn't give Jirobo a difficult time. We haven't seen much from Iruka or Yashamaru, but Izumo or Kotetsu would absolutely be a match for the Sound 4 members individually. Hell, Izumo and Kotetsu alone could arguably defeat two of them if they were teaming up.


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## Reznor (Jun 30, 2015)

I ruffled alot of feathers declaring Kotetsu > Kidomaru in KC


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## Kai (Jun 30, 2015)

I'll be surprised if the Sound 4 can destroy one of Hiruzen's shadow clones, who were taking several hits in the dark by weakened ET Senju bros.

Enma can tear apart Shinju's branches. The blunt force is seriously going to hurt Kimimaro.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 30, 2015)

Yeah this is a horrible mismatch, The Fodder 5 the same people that Orochimaru could kill casually with no problem if he wanted to, the same Orochimaru that not only was Hiruzen keeping up with equally he also fought in a 3 v 1 against 2 other Hokage. Those 2 ET hokage by themselves would handle the Sound 5 in around 5 minutes at best. 

Like Literally Hiruzen is going to use Shuriken Kage bunshin and kill the Sound 4 with that one jutsu. Kimmimaro can tank it, But then Sarutobi won't fuck around with these whippersnappers, and Summon Monkey King Enma, The staff that could bust Hashirama's Wood, and clash with a Diamond busting weapon. The staff will go THROUGH Kimmimaro. After Hiruzen trashes these kids he goes home and smokes his pipe, worried about the future generation if this is the best they got.

Match Verdict: *Hiruzen No-Low Difficulty *


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Clone + Shiki Fūjin takes care of Kimi, who is the only legitimate threat here. The rest get stomped.
> 
> Grampa Hiruzen low to mid diff.



You are aware that Shiki Fuuin kills him right ?


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You are aware that Shiki Fuuin kills him right ?



Not if his clone does it, only the clone would die/disperse.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 30, 2015)

You are gonna get your soul eaten by Shinigami for summoning him. Clone or not.


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## Kai (Jun 30, 2015)

^ Ninja'd. The Shinigami will take the original user's soul regardless.


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## Hazuki (Jun 30, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Do you have the page?



He won't find the page 

kabuto never said that he was weaker than kimi lol 

kabuto always compare kimi to sasuke kid part 1

he never his own level in front of a poor ninja level like kimi 

kimi is strong for genin or chuunin , he is weak against juunin 


and for the threat , kakashi part 1 can festroy sound 5 on his own 
i can't believe how sound 5 are so overstimate  they fough against poor kid nothing more


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## Matty (Jun 30, 2015)

HIruzen doesn't even need to Try. He dismantles the 5, probably has a low dif battle with Kimimaro


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> You are gonna get your soul eaten by Shinigami for summoning him. Clone or not.


I'll concede this point if you can show where this is stated or shown; otherwise it doesn't make any sense that one of Hiruzen's clones would be able to perform the sealing if it itself didn't possess the necessary "soul" to be offered to the Shinigami, in which case it seems odd to me that the real Hiruzen would still be required to offer his up as well.


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## Bonly (Jun 30, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Do you have the page?



Here ya go


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## Rocky (Jun 30, 2015)

If clones could perform the Shiki Fujin with no consequence to the original, Minato & Hiruzen would jump _tiers._

It'd be one of the most broken jutsu in the manga.


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If clones could perform the Shiki Fujin with no consequence to the original, Minato & Hiruzen would jump _tiers._
> 
> It'd be one of the most broken jutsu in the manga.


Other than plot, I honestly don't see why not if such is the case.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I'll concede this point if you can show where this is stated or shown; otherwise it doesn't make any sense that one of Hiruzen's clones would be able to perform the sealing if it itself didn't possess the necessary "soul" to be offered to the Shinigami, in which case it seems odd to me that the real Hiruzen would still be required to offer his up as well.





StickaStick said:


> Other than plot, I honestly don't see why not if such is the case.


As you can see, there is only 1 death god emerging from real Hiruzen
Here ya go
Its like a contract seal.
Shiki Fuuin seals the users soul in return for giving his services


Here ya go
DeathGod pulls out hiruzen's soul and through it it extends its arm.




GilgameshXFate said:


> Not if his clone does it, only the clone would die/disperse.



2015
being this new

man oh man


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Hiruzen fought (and nearly drew) against Orochimaru and two Kage-level zombies, yet he'll have trouble with the Sound 5?



I don't think either of those zombies were Kage-level, hence why Hiruzen could stand up to them in the first place. By Tobirama's own admission, _he and his brother weren't revived nearly as powerful_ as they were in Part II. I'd place Part I Edo Hashirama and Tobirama as Jounin levels.

As for Orochimaru, he stood by and watched for most of the match. If he'd gone seriously against Hiruzen, he would've died quickly.



			
				The Undying said:
			
		

> I don't see how pushing Chouji to use his red pill means that Iruka, Yashamaru, Kotetsu or Izumo wouldn't give Jirobo a difficult time. We haven't seen much from Iruka or Yashamaru, but Izumo or Kotetsu would absolutely be a match for the Sound 4 members individually. Hell, Izumo and Kotetsu alone could arguably defeat two of them if they were teaming up.



Because Iruka, Yashamaru, Kotetsu and Izumo are all obviously weaker than him. Mizuki got his ass kicked in close quarters by a Pre-Genin Naruto, whose taijutsu skills and speed were both abysmal. Yashamaru got stomped by a Pre-Genin Gaara, and Iruka is neither impressive via feats or through stats. Kotetsu and Izumo might be superior to those guys, but they are still Chuunin level, and certainly nothing in their arsenal warrants putting them above CS2 Jugo or SRA Chouji.​​


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## Alex Payne (Jun 30, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I'll concede this point if you can show where this is stated or shown; otherwise it doesn't make any sense that one of Hiruzen's clones would be able to perform the sealing if it itself didn't possess the necessary "soul" to be offered to the Shinigami, in which case it seems odd to me that the real Hiruzen would still be required to offer his up as well.


Corpse Demon Consuming Seal (屍鬼封尽, Shiki Fuujin)
 Fuuinjutsu, S-rank, Offensive, Close range (0-5m)
 User: Sandaime Hokage

*Giving up one's own life to the God of Death, one can seal the soul of one's sworn enemy forever!!*

*This ultimate Fuuinjutsu can, by sacrificing one's own life, seal the target's soul for all eternity.* Once, the Yondaime Hokage used this jutsu to seal the Kyuubi no Youko, loosing his own life. Because of this technique so secret, even a shinobi like Orochimaru didn't know about, the late Sandaime is now entombed in eternal darkness, seemingly never to see the sunlight again...

 For those who've seen this shape, no technique exists to allow them to escape the Realm of the Dead~~

* [picture of the Death God appearing above the Sandaime Hokage and his two Shadow Clones]*
 ↑Dressed in white clothing, the grotesque Death God appears...!! Only when a shinobi has invoked the technique, can this figure be seen.

 ↓*On the arm of the Death God which holds the rosary surfaces a Cursed Seal. This arm penetrates the user's body, and pulls the target's soul out.*
 [picture of the Death God's arm]

*[picture of the Death God's face]
 ↑The soul of the person possessed by the Death God, is eaten, and faces a Fate of eternal, continuous anguish*



Shiki Fujin uses user's body as a medium. Sarutobi simply used KBs so that Shinigami could grab Edo Tensei.


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## Ghost (Jun 30, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Part one Kakashi was a High Jounin level character or as fans call it Elite Jounin level. Kabuto was said to be equal to Kakashi and Kimi was said to be stronger then Kabuto so that( along with his feats and stats and other hype) should place him in the High Jounin tier



Kakashi would handily beat Kabuto based on feats 10/10, so no, they're not on the same level. Kimimaro struggled with injured Lee and Gaara. Kakashi would've destroyed them in a second.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Corpse Demon Consuming Seal (屍鬼封尽, Shiki Fuujin)
> Fuuinjutsu, S-rank, Offensive, Close range (0-5m)
> User: Sandaime Hokage
> 
> ...



I really can't believe he wasn't able to comprehend something as clear and simple as that 

This sheds lights to some of the debates I have in this board


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## Rocky (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I don't think either of those zombies were Kage-level, hence why Hiruzen could stand up to them in the first place.



They _were_, according to the Anbu that was watching them fight (and Orochimaru himself). Well, Tobirama was, and Hashirama's stronger than him, so...



Godaime Tsunade said:


> By Tobirama's own admission, _he and his brother weren't revived nearly as powerful_ as they were in Part II.



I'm aware. They can be weaker than normal and still be Kage level though. At full strength, they're _above_ most Kage, especially Hashirama.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> As for Orochimaru, he stood by and watched for most of the match. If he'd gone seriously against Hiruzen, he would've died quickly.



I know that Orochimaru was incredibly overconfident during that fight, but I never got the impression that he was holding back _that_ much.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'd place Part I Edo Hashirama and Tobirama as Jounin levels.​​



Hashirama and Tobirama can be weakened and still be Kage level.

They were explicitly stated to be such, too.


...Rocky beat me to it.


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Corpse Demon Consuming Seal (屍鬼封尽, Shiki Fuujin)
> Fuuinjutsu, S-rank, Offensive, Close range (0-5m)
> User: Sandaime Hokage
> 
> ...


I know that it requires the sacrifice of one's soul; what I asked was how does this apply to a clone that logically does not possess it's own soul. The text itself states that by trading one's life, one can seal the soul of one's sworn _enemy _(singular, not plural).

So if it is a one-for-one trade off then how are the clones able to function as the medium when a soul is required for a soul, and not one soul for multiple souls as you seem to be suggesting? 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I really can't believe he wasn't able to comprehend something as clear and simple as that
> 
> This sheds lights to some of the debates I have in this board


Coming from you of all people


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I know that it requires the sacrifice of one's soul; what I asked was how does this apply to a clone that logically does not possess it's own soul. The text itself states that by trading one's life, one can seal the soul of one's sworn _enemy _(singular, not plural).
> 
> So if it is a one-for-one trade off then how are the clones able to function as the medium when a soul is required for a soul, and not one soul for multiple souls as you seem to be suggesting?



You have to sacrifice your soul to summon Death God. It doesn't say you can only seal 1 soul.
As you can see in the scans I posted in the previous page, Hiruzen himself casts the jutsu and DeathGod summons behind him with his soul already bound.
It doesn't emerge from the clones.



> [
> Coming from you of all people



Nice rebuttal, but yeah. I'll go easy on you from now on.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 30, 2015)

Whats the point of Arguing over Shiki Fuujin to begin with? Its not like Hiruzen is gonna use it on these Fodder to begin with. Since its a last resort and thinking that the Sound 5 can do what took Orochimaru + 2 Hokage level fighters to accomplish is laughable at best. I mean as soon as the Sound 4 almost got soloed by 2 special Jounins when they had a 4 vs 2 advantage, compared to Hiruzen fighting Orochimaru equally should tell you how much of a mismatch this is.


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## thechickensage (Jun 30, 2015)

Suicide jutsus are the least respectable, but somehow they come up all the time here


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## The Undying (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Because Iruka, Yashamaru, Kotetsu and Izumo are all obviously weaker than him. Mizuki got his ass kicked in close quarters by a Pre-Genin Naruto, whose taijutsu skills and speed were both abysmal. Yashamaru got stomped by a Pre-Genin Gaara, and Iruka is neither impressive via feats or through stats. Kotetsu and Izumo might be superior to those guys, but they are still Chuunin level, and certainly nothing in their arsenal warrants putting them above CS2 Jugo or SRA Chouji.



Yashamaru was "stomped" by a pre-Genin Gaara who had a Bijuu's auto-defense that was specifically preventing Gaara from getting stomped himself, which is hardly indicative of how he would fare against any member of the Sound 4 considering that every one of them would have been in equally shitty circumstances. You might have noticed that I didn't mention Mizuki at all, and Iruka's stats are in a comparable ballpark to post-timeskip Shikamaru even if we don't total them. Izumo and Kotetsu both have feats and abilities that would easily place them well within the Sound 4's range. I wasn't comparing them to CS2 Juugo or SRA Chouji, so that's an irrelevant point.

Also, "they are still Chuunin level" isn't a very strong argument. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the Sound 4 are anywhere _above_ that level, particularly when looking at dialogue in the manga that would directly imply the exact opposite. They're certainly not individually on par with the Special Jounin they fought against.


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You have to sacrifice your soul to summon Death God. It doesn't say you can only seal 1 soul.


_Giving up one's own life to the God of Death, one can seal the soul of one's sworn *enemy *forever!!

This ultimate Fuuinjutsu can, by sacrificing one's own life, seal the *target's *soul for all eternity. Once, the Yondaime Hokage used this jutsu to seal the Kyuubi no Youko, loosing his own life. Because of this technique so secret, even a shinobi like Orochimaru didn't know about, the late Sandaime is now entombed in eternal darkness, seemingly never to see the sunlight again..._

Singular, not plural. There is clearly a one-for-one stipulation being presented here.

But I'm willing to concede the point as SF isn't need to win regardless.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They _were_, according to the Anbu that was watching them fight (and Orochimaru himself). Well, Tobirama was, and Hashirama's stronger than him, so...



When Tobirama uses a suiton without a source, Orochimaru says " As you'd expect of a former Hokage ", but that statement does not specify that his _current_ body is still of the Kage-level. At the end of the day, all Tobirama did was block a generic elemental ninjutsu, something other non Kage-levels like Kakashi and Zabuza had done earlier on in Part I. Perhaps Tobirama still had the skill of a Hokage, but he could not execute it properly.



> I'm aware. They can be weaker than normal and still be Kage level though. At full strength, they're _above_ most Kage, especially Hashirama.



True, but they were much, _much_ weaker than normal. Their speed and reactions were drastically lower, to the point that they both got caught by Hiruzen's explosive tags, whereas in Part II they react to Madara's attacks and keep up with Minato, amongst others. This is pretty embarrassing given that Hiruzen only has a 3 in speed, and Tobirama is a sensor. Then there's the fact that, even when blinded and standing still inside of Hashirama's Bringer of Darkness genjutsu, the injuries they inflict to Hiruzen are very _minor_. Then there's that they were grabbed by Hiruzen, despite him being blinded. 

To me, nothing about their performances seems "Kage-level", not when you look at other Low-Kage levels in comparison (Konan, Rasa, Danzou, a few of the Jinchuuriki etc.). And as far as I'm concerned, their feats don't make them individually stronger than Jounin levels like Asuma, Hidan, Chouza, Kimimaro etc. 



> I know that Orochimaru was incredibly overconfident during that fight, but I never got the impression that he was holding back _that_ much.



He could have used giant snakes like the one that ate Naruto (it still would have been small enough to fit inside the barrier). He could have lanched ambush attacks with his extendable Kusanagi like he did with KN4, or his own body to aid him in _taijutsu exchanges_ _against Hiruzen_. He could have used the Mandara no Jin to distract him, Kage Bunshin of his own to counter Hiruzen's Kage Bunshin, or even just help his Edo Tensei zombies fight Hiruzen instead of standing there and watching.

He was holding back a lot. At the end of the day, if that barrier wasn't there, Orochimaru would conjure up Manda and stomp Hiruzen into the ground in no time at all.​​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 30, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Yashamaru was "stomped" by a pre-Genin Gaara who had a Bijuu's auto-defense that was specifically preventing Gaara from getting stomped himself,



What does that matter? Having a bijuu's auto-defense did not make Gaara some kind of god, he was still just a little boy, and he instantly defeated Yashamaru with his Sand Coffin Technique, not Shukaku itself. 



> which is hardly indicative of how he would fare against any member of the Sound 4 considering that every one of them would have been in equally shitty circumstances.



The Sound 4 are faster and have the means to counter pre-Genin Gaara's sand. They would not be nearly as defenceless as Yashamaru apparently was. 



> You might have noticed that I didn't mention Mizuki at all,



I noticed that you didn't address him when I brought him up, even though he's Chuunin level.



> and Iruka's stats are in a comparable ballpark to post-timeskip Shikamaru even if we don't total them.



But not comparable to CS2 Sound 4, who get notable boosts to their already more impressive stats (and feats).



> Izumo and Kotetsu both have shown feats and abilities that would easily place them well within the Sound 4's range.



No they haven't. Their feats consist of ambushing unsuspecting opponents and getting blitzed by Kakuzu's threads.



> I wasn't comparing them to CS2 Juugo or SRA Chouji, so that's an irrelevant point.



I meant CS2 Jirobo, not Juugo, apologies. As for SRA Chouji, he defeated and is on a similar level to CS2 Jirobo, so if Izumo or Kotetsu could not defeat CS2 Jirobo, they most definitely could not defeat SRA Chouji.



> Also, "they are still Chuunin level" isn't a very strong argument. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the Sound 4 are anywhere _above_ that level, particularly when looking at dialogue in the manga that would directly imply the exact opposite. They're certainly not individually on par with the Special Jounin they fought against.



The Sound 4 fought in a team setting where they couldn't use Flute Genjutsu or wide AOE moves at risk of hitting their team-mates. They had some restrictions too. I wouldn't argue that they're individually on par with either Genma or Raido no, but I would argue that they are at least bottom end Tokubetsu Jounin level, because they are noticeably above the Chuunin level.

*EDIT:* For anyone who cares, Sakon and Ukon were stated to possess the skill of a Jounin in the anime. Obviously the anime isn't canon, but clearly I'm not the only one who thinks he isn't Chuunin level.​​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> _Giving up one's own life to the God of Death, one can seal the soul of one's sworn *enemy *forever!!
> 
> This ultimate Fuuinjutsu can, by sacrificing one's own life, seal the *target's *soul for all eternity. Once, the Yondaime Hokage used this jutsu to seal the Kyuubi no Youko, loosing his own life. Because of this technique so secret, even a shinobi like Orochimaru didn't know about, the late Sandaime is now entombed in eternal darkness, seemingly never to see the sunlight again..._
> 
> ...


Why would the databook assume there is more than 1 enemy ? Most jutsu definitions mention "enemy" not "enemies." That doesn't mean their use is limited on 1 person only.

We've seen Hiruzen use it on more than 1 person and the databook doesn't mention any limitations 

And yes, I accept your concession...


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> What does that matter? Having a bijuu's auto-defense did not make Gaara some kind of god, he was still just a little boy, and he instantly defeated Yashamaru with his Sand Coffin Technique, not Shukaku itself.​




It was pretty clear that Gaara's auto sand defense and Sand coffin way of fighting didn't change for the time period of kid to genin Gaara, Gaara never trained he didn't need to because he pretty much just let Shukaku solo everyone he fought. Gaara beat all of the top assassins in Suna he was pretty much going on Jonin level coming into the CE. This is more evident when Sasuke immediately compared Gaara to Kakashi as soon as he met him.





> The Sound 4 are faster and have the means to counter pre-Genin Gaara's sand. They would not be nearly as defenceless as Yashamaru apparently was.





The sound 4 have the speed to bypass Gaara's sand defense? Thats news to me.










> No they haven't. Their feats consist of ambushing unsuspecting opponents and getting blitzed by Kakuzu's threads.



Getting blitzed by Kage level Kakuzu is a big stretch to Chunnin levels like Sound 4.





> I meant CS2 Jirobo, not Juugo, apologies. As for SRA Chouji, he defeated and is on a similar level to CS2 Jirobo, so if Izumo or Kotetsu could not defeat CS2 Jirobo, they most definitely could not defeat SRA Chouji.



What on Earth? Izumo and Kotetsu would HUMILIATE SRA Chouji.





> The Sound 4 fought in a team setting where they couldn't use Flute Genjutsu or wide AOE moves at risk of hitting their team-mates. They had some restrictions too. I wouldn't argue that they're individually on par with either Genma or Raido no, but I would argue that they are at least bottom end Tokubetsu Jounin level, because they are noticeably above the Chuunin level.



The only one in the Sound 4 with large AOE moves are Tayuya's Genjutsu, but realistically if she used her genjutsu and put everyone under it, she could just break her teamates out of it. The Sound 4 went CS2 that we know, so presumably they used their special jutsu that require them to be in CS2 or else it would be pointless.



> *EDIT:* For anyone who cares, Sakon and Ukon were stated to possess the skill of a Jounin in the anime. Obviously the anime isn't canon, but clearly I'm not the only one who thinks he isn't Chuunin level.


​
Makes sense as the strongest and leader of the Sound 4 he should be about very low Jonin level, But beating the personal guards of the Hokage individually? Thats a stretch.


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## The Undying (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> What does that matter? Having a bijuu's auto-defense did not make Gaara some kind of god, he was still just a little boy, and he instantly defeated Yashamaru with his Sand Coffin Technique, not Shukaku itself.
> 
> The Sound 4 are faster and have the means to counter pre-Genin Gaara's sand. They would not be nearly as defenceless as Yashamaru apparently was.



If I'm not mistaken, Yashamaru was off-paneled, no? If that's the case, we have no idea how defenseless he was or how long the fight actually lasted. Shukaku's defense matters because it's specifically what prevented Gaara from getting killed, and it's specifically what made Gaara a match for Suna's Jounin. There's nothing that would indicate that he wouldn't have at the very least given the Sound 4 members a pretty tough time individually were they in Yashamaru's place.



> I noticed that you didn't address him when I brought him up, even though he's Chuunin level.



I didn't address him because his entire skirmish was completely inconsistent with the level of ability we've seen Chuunin typically portrayed at. I chalk it up to a typical prologue inaccuracy from a time when the author was still getting acquainted with his world-building.



> But not comparable to CS2 Sound 4, who get notable boosts to their already more impressive stats (and feats).



Granted, but I wouldn't say that their base stats are more impressive per se. I'll concede that I wasn't taking CS2 into consideration there, however.



> No they haven't. Their feats consist of ambushing unsuspecting opponents and getting blitzed by Kakuzu's threads.



Did you not pay attention to their skirmish with Kakuzu? What makes you think that Suiton: Mizuame Nabara isn't catching one of them when it worked on a significantly stronger, faster and more intelligent opponent?



> The Sound 4 fought in a team setting where they couldn't use Flute Genjutsu or wide AOE moves at risk of hitting their team-mates. They had some restrictions too.



They directly stated they were going all-out. They don't generally rely on wide AOE moves anyway.



> I wouldn't argue that they're individually on par with either Genma or Raido no



Exactly. If it took the combined strength of all four members just to take two Special Jounin who weren't even at full strength, they're not reasonably approaching the Special Jounin class individually even with their CS2 states activated. Ergo, they're Chuunin-level.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 30, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> It was pretty clear that Gaara's auto sand defense and Sand coffin way of fighting didn't change for the time period of kid to genin Gaara, Gaara never trained he didn't need to because he pretty much just let Shukaku solo everyone he fought. Gaara beat all of the top assassins in Suna he was pretty much going on Jonin level coming into the CE. This is more evident when Sasuke immediately compared Gaara to Kakashi as soon as he met him.



I disagree. His method of fighting might never have changed, but he still needed to train to graduate and become a Genin. He was born with an auto-sand shield but not with talent as a shinobi, he had to train to earn that. It wouldn't make sense for all of Gaara's other skills to improve - taijutsu, genjutsu, intelligence, speed etc. and not his main method of attack ie. sand binding. If he was Low Jounin level by the time he entered the CE, then he was certainly below that as a little boy, and therefore so was Yashamaru.



> The sound 4 have the speed to bypass Gaara's sand defense? Thats news to me.



Maybe not outright bypass, but their greater speed means that they can handle it better than Yashamaru could. Weightless Rock Lee had a 4/5 in speed, and was able to handle the speed of Gaara's sand for a while, albeit with difficulty. The Sound 4 possess mostly 3's in speed, and with CS2 that stat soars higher. 



> Getting blitzed by Kage level Kakuzu is a big stretch to Chunnin levels like Sound 4.



I'm not saying that they wouldn't get blitzed too, or at least get hit, but that doesn't help Izumo or Kotetsu's case.



> What on Earth? Izumo and Kotetsu would HUMILIATE SRA Chouji.



How would they do that? When SRA Chouji uses Chou Baika no Jutsu, neither Kotetsu's conch mace nor Izumo's suiton will be able to do jack shit. Perhaps in tandem with one another they could pull off some sort of strategy before that happens, but individually I don't see how they would win.



> The only one in the Sound 4 with large AOE moves are Tayuya's Genjutsu,



And Kidomaru's webs and spiders [1] [2], and Jirobo's doton [3] [4]. 



> but realistically if she used her genjutsu and put everyone under it, she could just break her teamates out of it. The Sound 4 went CS2 that we know, so presumably they used their special jutsu that require them to be in CS2 or else it would be pointless.



I think the bigger risk is that if Genma and Raido broke out of it, the other three would be theirs for taking.



> Makes sense as the strongest and leader of the Sound 4 he should be about very low Jonin level, But beating the personal guards of the Hokage individually? Thats a stretch.



Actually, having checked the episode, he apparently calls all of the Sound 4 Jounin level. 

The personal guards of the Hokage are Tokubetsu Jounin level, a step down from Jounin-level. Furthermore, as far as tier lists are concerned, it would go something like High/Elite Jounin > Mid/Average Jounin > Low Jounin > Tokubetsu Jounin > Chuunin. So really, what I'm suggesting - that the Sound 4 aren't Chuunin level and are a tier above that, isn't unreasonable.​​


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## Turrin (Jun 30, 2015)

Hiruzen no diffs this. The S5 all have unique and powerful specialities, but their other skills simply don't measure up. The S4 are like watered down Hidans, with less potent special abilities and even less skilled than Hidan outside of them. Kimi being the only exception, but even he tops out around Jonin "level" and is not stepping to Hiruzen.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I disagree. His method of fighting might never have changed, but he still needed to train to graduate and become a Genin. He was born with an auto-sand shield but not with talent as a shinobi, he had to train to earn that. It wouldn't make sense for all of Gaara's other skills to improve - taijutsu, genjutsu, intelligence, speed etc. and not his main method of attack ie. sand binding. If he was Low Jounin level by the time he entered the CE, then he was certainly below that as a little boy, and therefore so was Yashamaru.​




Honestly Gaara probably didn't learn anything in the Ninja academy, being that everyone in Suna was scared shitless of him, and the fact he could snap anytime and kill people for no reason, he probably had the Naruto experience but worse, Like I can't see any Academy teachers trying to teach him the basics, Gaara probably try and kill them. I think it was also stated that the only thing Gaara ever used before the CE was basic Sand defense and Sand coffin, nothing else was required so he never bothered learning anything else. At best Rasa might have trained him the basics of Sand manipulation being that they are apparently the only ones in that era that could use it.





> Maybe not outright bypass, but their greater speed means that they can handle it better than Yashamaru could. Weightless Rock Lee had a 4/5 in speed, and was able to handle the speed of Gaara's sand for a while, albeit with difficulty. The Sound 4 possess mostly 3's in speed, and with CS2 that stat soars higher.



CS2 seems like more of a specialized transformation that only enhances the core stat that each member uses, Like Jirobu's only gives him strength, Kidomaru gives him extra accuracy, Tayuya's makes her genjutsu better. While Sasuke's and Kimmimaro's being stated to have the best Curse Seal enhances all stats. 








> How would they do that? When SRA Chouji uses Chou Baika no Jutsu, neither Kotetsu's conch mace nor Izumo's suiton will be able to do jack shit. Perhaps in tandem with one another they could pull off some sort of strategy before that happens, but individually I don't see how they would win.



This is what most people don't get, its the perspective of the series, Chouji is a genin with genin level speed atleast at this point, Kotetsu and Izumo are chunnin with Chunnin level physical stats. There won't be no yellow, green,red, blue, purple, pink or any other color of pill, They are straight up going to blitz and give him a spanking like the kid he is. You see this is back in Part 1 where rank actually mattered, I honestly would be surprised if Chouji made it past the first blitz.










> Actually, having checked the episode, he apparently calls all of the Sound 4 Jounin level.
> 
> The personal guards of the Hokage are Tokubetsu Jounin level, a step down from Jounin-level. Furthermore, as far as tier lists are concerned, it would go something like High/Elite Jounin > Mid/Average Jounin > Low Jounin > Tokubetsu Jounin > Chuunin. So really, what I'm suggesting - that the Sound 4 aren't Chuunin level and are a tier above that, isn't unreasonable.


​
Another thing you got wrong is right here, a Tokubetsu Jounin is a Jounin with a job thats jounin level with everything else being chunnin level. Being that these guys were the Hokage's guards their Jounin level is probably combat and or protection, If thats the case it would make sense for the Sound 4 to be able to beat them if they only specialize in defense actually offensive fighting they aren't going to be good enough.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 30, 2015)

The Undying said:


> If I'm not mistaken, Yashamaru was off-paneled, no? If that's the case, we have no idea how defenseless he was or how long the fight actually lasted. Shukaku's defense matters because it's specifically what prevented Gaara from getting killed, and it's specifically what made Gaara a match for Suna's Jounin. There's nothing that would indicate that he wouldn't have at the very least given the Sound 4 members a pretty tough time individually were they in Yashamaru's place.



No, we saw him die _on-panel_. The match lasted a matter of seconds.

Statistically, Yashamaru wouldn't give any of the Sound 4 a huge amount of difficulty either. Therefore, a member of the Sound 4 lasting longer against him than Yashamaru did seems plausible.



> I didn't address him because his entire skirmish was completely inconsistent with the level of ability we've seen Chuunin typically portrayed at. I chalk it up to a typical prologue inaccuracy from a time when the author was still getting acquainted with his world-building.



Typical "Chuunin" levels are probably about Mizuki's level, though. The Konoha Rookies may have been Chuunin throughout Part II for instance, but their power was far beyond many Jounins'. In the Chuunin exam Genma tells Sasuke, a Genin, that he possesses the power of a Chuunin and yet he is never promoted. Similarly, the proctors note that Neji and Naruto possess more power than Shikamaru, but yet he is more suited to being a Chuunin because he's a better leader. Rank is not always indicative of power, but yet we can tell what the generic Chuunin level is by shinobi like Mizuki because he would never have been promoted if he didn't possess the necessary power and skill. 



> Granted, but I wouldn't say that their base stats are more impressive per se. I'll concede that I wasn't taking CS2 into consideration there, however.



Well, Iruka is slower than all of the base Sound 4 besides Jirobo, but with the CS2 even he might be faster. He's inferior to Jirobo in taijutsu too, and he's inferior to the others in at least one stat each. 



> Did you not pay attention to their skirmish with Kakuzu? What makes you think that Suiton: Mizuame Nabara isn't catching one of them when it worked on a significantly stronger, faster and more intelligent opponent?



Because Kakuzu couldn't turn massive and escape its AOE with Chou Baika no Jutsu.



> They directly stated they were going all-out. They don't generally rely on wide AOE moves anyway.



See the above post I made in response to Gilgamesh. In 1v1s the Sound 4 love using AOE attacks. If they were going all out, they went all out without using AOE moves, because they couldn't.



> Exactly. If it took the combined strength of all four members just to take two Special Jounin who weren't even at full strength, they're not reasonably approaching the Special Jounin class individually even with their CS2 states activated. Ergo, they're Chuunin-level.



Except that I would argue the Sound 4 weren't at their full strength either, if their arsenals were limited. I do see your logic, but at the end of the day I would put a CS2 Sound 4 member closer in power to Genma or Raido than I would Iruka, Mizuki, Part I Shikamaru, Izumo etc. Even if there's a notable gap in power between the Sound 4 and Konoha's Tokubetsu Jounin, I feel that there is an even bigger one between the Sound 4 and Konoha's actual Chuunin.​​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

Well, I am surprised actually.

Because I've seen lots of people come up with tryhard arguments when sound 5(even 4) were matched against MS'less Itachi, how they'd work in perfect unision and set up their formation before Itachi could even approach them. Now the portrayal alone allows someone of Hiruzen's caliber to neg or no dif them.

Very interesting


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## FlamingRain (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> When Tobirama uses a suiton without a source, Orochimaru says " As you'd expect of a former Hokage ", but that statement does not specify that his _current_ body is still of the Kage-level.​​



The Anbu's statement a few pages afterward does _(1)_.

And it wasn't just casting a Suiton without a source that prompted the statement, it was casting _such a high level one_ without a source.



> Their speed and reactions were drastically lower, to the point that they both got caught by Hiruzen's explosive tags, whereas in Part II they react to Madara's attacks and keep up with Minato, amongst others.​​



If Shikamaru can place Kakuzu's blood on Hidan's scythe when he attacks then Hiruzen can land tags on Kage levels. Orochimaru himself didn't seem to take notice until the explosive tags actually went off.

That says more about how sneaky Sarutobi can be than it does how slow the Senju bros were.



> And as far as I'm concerned, their feats don't make them individually stronger than Jounin levels like Asuma, Hidan, Chouza, Kimimaro etc.​​



You're neglecting to take into consideration that their feats are dated.

Seen again, early Edo Tensei Hashi and Tobirama would be scaled to fight at an equivalent Part 2 level like old man Hiruzen was when he neutralized Yamato-amped-Zetsu's elemental blasts which had Mifune worried despite the alliance still wearing the same cloaks that had shielded them from Madara and Obito's Katons, and subsequently would stomp any of those Jōnin levels you just named off.

Turn back the clock on those Jōnin instead, and the same thing happens.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well, I am surprised actually.
> 
> Because I've seen lots of people come up with tryhard arguments when sound 5(even 4) were matched against MS'less Itachi, how they'd work in perfect unision and set up their formation before Itachi could even approach them. Now the portrayal alone allows someone of Hiruzen's caliber to neg or no dif them.
> 
> Very interesting



They are just wankers, Itachi without Ms beat the Sound 5's BOSS. Itachi would have the same amount of difficulty as Hiruzen here has, None. Now make it No MS and No Genjutsu Itachi then he might lose, if he's sick. But Healthy Itachi would still win without Genjutsu or MS. But these misconceptions of power are based on people not understanding the perspective of power. The sound 4 were pretty good compared to the garbage level Konoha Rookies but compared to Kage or Even High Jounin level fighters, The Sound 5 are just garbage.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 30, 2015)

I don't know why people keep saying Itachi beat Orochimaru without the MS as if they saw the whole fight.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> They are just wankers, Itachi without Ms beat the Sound 5's BOSS. Itachi would have the same amount of difficulty as Hiruzen here has, None. Now make it No MS and No Genjutsu Itachi then he might lose, if he's sick. But Healthy Itachi would still win without Genjutsu or MS. But these misconceptions of power are based on people not understanding the perspective of power. The sound 4 were pretty good compared to the garbage level Konoha Rookies but compared to Kage or Even High Jounin level fighters, The Sound 5 are just garbage.



How does genjutsu effect the outcome if you believe Hiruzen is physically fit to keep up with sound 5. Itachi is fuckloads faster than Hiruzen and has sharingan on top of that. If Hiruzen can close in and kill those people, then why can't Itachi ?



FlamingRain said:


> I don't know why people keep saying Itachi beat Orochimaru without the MS as if they saw the whole fight.



Because we saw the whole fight


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 30, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Honestly Gaara probably didn't learn anything in the Ninja academy, being that everyone in Suna was scared shitless of him, and the fact he could snap anytime and kill people for no reason, he probably had the Naruto experience but worse, Like I can't see any Academy teachers trying to teach him the basics, Gaara probably try and kill them. I think it was also stated that the only thing Gaara ever used before the CE was basic Sand defense and Sand coffin, nothing else was required so he never bothered learning anything else. At best Rasa might have trained him the basics of Sand manipulation being that they are apparently the only ones in that era that could use it.



Gaara obviously learned some things in the academy, or if not in the academy, he learned them from someone, because otherwise he couldn't have become a Genin. He didn't have a 2.5 in Genjutsu, a 1 in Taijutsu, a 3.5 in Hand-Seals etc. the moment he came out of the womb. He learned them at some point.



> CS2 seems like more of a specialized transformation that only enhances the core stat that each member uses, Like Jirobu's only gives him strength, Kidomaru gives him extra accuracy, Tayuya's makes her genjutsu better. While Sasuke's and Kimmimaro's being stated to have the best Curse Seal enhances all stats.



That isn't entirely true. Granted, Sasuke, Juugo and Kimimaro have the best Curse seals, but the seal made Tayuya _physically stronger too_, despite Taijutsu not being her strong point. And at any rate, it gives the user more chakra, and with more chakra, you can potentially _move faster_. The seal gives an overall boost to physical capabilities, that much is clear.



> This is what most people don't get, its the perspective of the series, Chouji is a genin with genin level speed atleast at this point,



Rank is not indicative of strength. Shikamaru was a Chuunin, but admitted that Chouji was stronger than he was.



> Kotetsu and Izumo are chunnin with Chunnin level physical stats.



That they do (feats anyway, I don't think the databook ever gave them stats), but Chouji is a Gennin and he has better feats. 



> There won't be no yellow, green,red, blue, purple, pink or any other color of pill, They are straight up going to blitz and give him a spanking like the kid he is. You see this is back in Part 1 where rank actually mattered, I honestly would be surprised if Chouji made it past the first blitz.



They've shown no overly impressive speed, having never blitzed anyone, and have no stats to back them up. Chouji matched CS2 Jirobo in CQC, and he has a 2/5 in speed in base. I don't think they would blitz Chouji before he ate a pill.



> Another thing you got wrong is right here, a Tokubetsu Jounin is a Jounin with a job thats jounin level with everything else being chunnin level. Being that these guys were the Hokage's guards their Jounin level is probably combat and or protection, If thats the case it would make sense for the Sound 4 to be able to beat them if they only specialize in defense actually offensive fighting they aren't going to be good enough.



A Chuunin level with one particular area that is Jounin level > a Chuunin level with no particular areas that are Jounin level, hence why Tokubetsu Jounin > Chuunin, most of the time.

As to why they were promoted..I don't know, we were never told. They were probably given Tokubetsu Jounin on account of the fact that they could use Hiraishin (which they could use to protect the Hokage), a technique no one but Tobirama and Minato ever learned that was easily Jounin level in difficulty. So perhaps they are Jounin level in Ninjutsu.​​


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How does genjutsu effect the outcome if you believe Hiruzen is physically fit to keep up with sound 5. Itachi is fuckloads faster than Hiruzen and has sharingan on top of that. If Hiruzen can close in and kill those people, then why can't Itachi ?





Because Itachi's base jutsu includes all of Goukyaku no jutsu, and exploding clone, atleast Hiruzen has moves that don't suck ass. Plus Sarutobi with Emma Staff >>> Itachi in Taijutsu ability, Genjutsu gives him the free victory on the Sound 5, but Without MS and without Genjutsu relying on just his base C rank moveset, and Taijutsu it'll be a considerable harder battle then Hiruzen would face. But I agree with you that the Sound 5 would still lose.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because we saw the whole fight.



_No_, we _didn't_. We don't see when Itachi catches Orochimaru in that Genjutsu- we're brought straight in after Orochimaru is already in it, so we didn't see the whole thing.

We didn't see how it started, and there's no good reason to think that what we saw was the end of it.

Sasuke used the same Genjutsu and Orochimaru kept persisting. He persisted once Itachi landed it too because he tried to break it, and all we saw Itachi do was sever his hand, which is nothing for a man who smiles after being hit in the face with fireballs or bifurcated, or split into several pieces, or impaled with a sword the size of his torso.

_Especially_ that last one, because if Itachi really managed to scare Orochimaru off by severing his hand the snake's _"you don't really think a little cut like this will be enough to stop me"_ remark would be _really_ out of place.

Logically, we only saw a snippet of their fight because Orochimaru was simply recalling how Itachi used the same Genjutsu.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> That isn't entirely true. Granted, Sasuke, Juugo and Kimimaro have the best Curse seals, but the seal made Tayuya _physically stronger too_, despite Taijutsu not being her strong point. And at any rate, it gives the user more chakra, and with more chakra, you can potentially _move faster_. The seal gives an overall boost to physical capabilities, that much is clear.​




I suppose the amount of boost is determined by the Curse seal, but anyway they all had inferior base stats anyway so the Curse Seal just lets them catch up. And realistically if they were part of a Real Hidden Village they would be ranked based on their base abilities not their buffed Curse Seal State.





> Rank is not indicative of strength. Shikamaru was a Chuunin, but admitted that Chouji was stronger than he was.



Generally at least in Part 1 Rank is a pretty good indication of level of strength, outliers not withstanding like Mizuki. In physical Strength sure Chouji is > Shikamaru but in general power level Shikamaru > Chouji.





> That they do (feats anyway, I don't think the databook ever gave them stats), but Chouji is a Gennin and he has better feats.



Kotetsu and Izumo even being able to do anything to Kakuzu at all is a much better feat then anything SRA Chouji did, Like if you replaced SRA Chouji in that first contact with Kakuzu, Chouji would of been killed instantly.





> They've shown no overly impressive speed, having never blitzed anyone, and have no stats to back them up. Chouji matched CS2 Jirobo in CQC, and he has a 2/5 in speed in base. I don't think they would blitz Chouji before he ate a pill.



Thats because the only fight they've ever been in was against the Kage level Kakuzu, and the fact they didn't instantly die is more impressive then Chouji blitzing slow ass Jirobo.





> A Chuunin level with one particular area that is Jounin level > a Chuunin level with no particular areas that are Jounin level, hence why Tokubetsu Jounin > Chuunin, most of the time.
> 
> As to why they were promoted..I don't know, we were never told. They were probably given Tokubetsu Jounin on account of the fact that they could use Hiraishin (which they could use to protect the Hokage), a technique no one but Tobirama and Minato ever learned that was easily Jounin level in difficulty. So perhaps they are Jounin level in Ninjutsu.


​
To be fair I'm pretty sure Kishimoto just didn't know he was gonna give these guys Hiraishin, because if he thought of it in part 1 Then Genma and Raidou should of destroyed these kids. But that being said it was said to be an ambush so they probably weren't ready to use Hiraishin.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> , atleast Hiruzen has moves that don't suck ass.


Like what ?



> Plus Sarutobi with Emma Staff >>> Itachi in Taijutsu ability,


No he isn't ? 
Itachi has sharingan precog, he is fuckloads faster and more agile.
This is literally no contest.



> Genjutsu gives him the free victory on the Sound 5, but Without MS and without Genjutsu relying on just his base C rank moveset, and Taijutsu it'll be a considerable harder battle then Hiruzen would face. But I agree with you that the Sound 5 would still lose.



Again, what high level moves does Hiruzen have that puts him so much ahead of Itachi's base moveset ?



FlamingRain said:


> _No_, we _didn't_. We don't see when Itachi catches Orochimaru in that Genjutsu- we're brought straight in after Orochimaru is already in it, so we didn't see the whole thing.
> 
> We didn't see how it started, and there's no good reason to think that what we saw was the end of it.
> 
> ...



That was the whole fight mate.
He tried to ambush Itachi, or approached Itachi with ill intent(and Itachi sensed it) and got genjutsu GG'd. 

Going by the fact that there was no panting or scuff marks, or robe removal, there wasn't a battle before the genjutsu, and Orochimaru didn't seem like he wanted to fight anymore after he lost the hand.


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why would the databook assume there is more than 1 enemy ? Most jutsu definitions mention "enemy" not "enemies." That doesn't mean their use is limited on 1 person only.
> 
> We've seen Hiruzen use it on more than 1 person and the databook doesn't mention any limitations
> 
> And yes, I accept your concession...


It doesn't need to assume. It can just say enemy(ies) or target(s) for easy clarification. And didn't this entry came out with the DB after the Oro-Hiuzen fight? So imo absolutely the distinction should be made because the way it's stated doesn't apply to what we saw happen in the manga.

Well, actually it's Alexpayne I'm conceding since he posted the entry.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> It doesn't need to assume. It can just say enemy(ies) or target(s) for easy clarification. And didn't this entry came out with the DB after the Oro-Hiuzen fight? So imo absolutely the distinction should be made because the way it's stated doesn't apply to what we saw happen in the manga.
> 
> Well, actually it's Alexpayne I'm conceding to but you can take some of the credit if you wish



Will you concede to me if I pull out other Jutsu definitions from the databook that refer to enemy in singular form ?


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

No need, just tell me the ones that are comparable to how SF functions.

Edit: Honestly I don't even believe this shit, so yeah you and Alexpayne are right.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 30, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The Anbu's statement a few pages afterward does _(1)_.
> 
> And it wasn't just casting a Suiton without a source that prompted the statement, it was casting _such a high level one_ without a source.



It was the Suijinheki, a B Rank technique. Kakashi and Zabuza were using techniques of a similar rank at the start of Part I, but that no more made them Kage-level shinobi than this does. Granted, he could _additionally_ perform suitons without a source, but even that doesn't necessarily make him Kage-level in power.



> If Shikamaru can place Kakuzu's blood on Hidan's scythe when he attacks then Hiruzen can land tags on Kage levels. Orochimaru himself didn't seem to take notice until the explosive tags actually went off.



For a start, taking out some explosive tags and wrapping them around someone's legs is not quite the same as drizzling a little bit of blood on a scythe. The former takes longer and can be felt, the second takes a shorter amount of time and cannot.

Secondly, Part II Shikamaru's talents are rather unassuming, I wouldn't be so quick to rub him off as an unimpressive character. He dodged one of Kakuzu's attacks (who has a 4 in speed) before he ever dodged Hidan's and put that blood on his scythe. Hidan has a 3.5 in speed too, so it makes sense that he could manage that whenever he managed to evade what should have been an even faster attack. Shikamaru has a 2.5 in speed though, so its surprising that he could manage to bridge the speed gap between himself and his opponents.

But that was different. Neither Kakuzu nor Hidan are high-top tier speedsters, or indeed high-top tier characters at all..but the Senju bros are. There's no way someone with average speed like Hiruzen could ever "sneakily" put explosive tags on someone of their calibre. They would have to be _significantly_ weaker for that to ever happen.



> That says more about how sneaky Sarutobi can be than it does how slow the Senju bros were.



A mixture of the two perhaps. The Part II Senju bros would laugh at an attack as feeble as that. As for why Orochimaru didn't notice, it probably boils down to how arrogant he was throughout the match's duration.



> You're neglecting to take into consideration that their feats are dated.
> 
> Seen again, early Edo Tensei Hashi and Tobirama would be scaled to fight at an equivalent Part 2 level



I used to think that too, but now I'm not so sure. 

The Sannin were in no way "scaled down" in Part I, the only thing that made them weaker was their physical limitations throughout their battle, and yet even then, they were still hyped as the strongest individuals in the manga at that time. By Part II nothing changed, only that stronger shinobi were introduced into the manga. Previous power levels were never outright contradicted imo. Adding to that, Tobirama outwardly admitted that these zombies were weaker than the ones Orochimaru revived in Part II .. so I see no reason to assume that the Edo Tobirama and Edo Hashirama were "scaled down", when instead Kishimoto has given us a perfectly reasonable explanation: they were just weak incarnations of their real selves. 



> like old man Hiruzen was when he neutralized Yamato-amped-Zetsu's elemental blasts which had Mifune worried despite the alliance still wearing the same cloaks that had shielded them from Madara and Obito's Katons, and subsequently would stomp any of those Jōnin levels you just named off.



Shikamaru outwardly admitted that there was no one else left in the alliance who could fight, besides Hiruzen. Mainly because he was an edo tensei, and his chakra reserves couldn't run out. My issue with that is that it still doesn't contradict Part I. In his fight against Orochimaru, Hiruzen used two Kage Bunshin, a couple of elemental ninjutsu, summoned Enma, fought Orochimaru in CQC and then used Shiki Fujin, and he still wasn't showing any signs of rigorous exhaustion. 

It stands to reason that he could conjure up a few Kage Bunshin and spew out a few massive elemental blasts, the difference is that when he's alive the chakra doesn't regenerate back again quite so quickly. Hiruzen was well-suited to countering Zetsu/Yamato, but he wouldn't have defeated it if he wasn't an edo tensei.

____________​
If you guys want to interpret Part I Hashirama and Tobirama as Kage-level because of what that ANBU said, then I can't stop you. All I'm saying is, Hiruzen is already pretty much bottom of the Kage tier. It doesn't get a whole lot lower than him, so even if you did think of these zombies as Kage levels, they're bottom of the tier, and might as well be high-end Jounin (which is where I would place them anyway).​​


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## The Undying (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> No, we saw him die _on-panel_. The match lasted a matter of seconds.



Fair enough. My point stands though in that it's not a foolproof way of arguing that the Sound 4 would have a significantly easier time with that version of Gaara.



> Statistically, Yashamaru wouldn't give any of the Sound 4 a huge amount of difficulty either. Therefore, a member of the Sound 4 lasting longer against him than Yashamaru did seems plausible.



Statistically, both Yashamaru and Iruka are similar in prowess to post-timeskip Shikamaru barring his perfect score in intelligence. I certainly don't see Shikamaru _losing_ to any of the Sound 4 at that point in the series, so it doesn't exactly seem implausible that either character could put up a decent fight at the very least either.

Bear in mind that I'm not arguing Yashamaru would actually beat any of them.



> Typical "Chuunin" levels are probably about Mizuki's level, though.



Honestly, I think it's seriously baffling that you would put most Chuunin at Mizuki's level when Mizuki himself is the one Chuunin that didn't actually DO anything in the manga aside from throwing a shuriken (something any run-of-the-mill Genin can do). Most Chuunin would be more around the same level as the ones we've actually seen in action, including Izumo, Kotetsu, the rookies, etc. You admitting that CE Sasuke possesses the power of a Chuunin already contradicts the idea of Mizuki being representative of the rank, especially when _we didn't even see him fight_. 

If nothing else, I hope you can at least think about this and concede that Mizuki is an ill comparison here.



> The Konoha Rookies may have been Chuunin throughout Part II for instance, but their power was far beyond many Jounins'.



Based on what, and which Jounin are you referring to? Aside from the war, non-Team 7 rookies haven't shown anything that would make me believe they're beyond most Jounin. They haven't demonstrated any feats that were particularly deserving of that rank before the final arc.



> Rank is not always indicative of power, but yet we can tell what the generic Chuunin level is by shinobi like Mizuki because he would never have been promoted if he didn't possess the necessary power and skill.



Mizuki being promoted doesn't detract from the fact that Mizuki's appearance was extremely brief, unlike several other Chuunin. It's irrational to have one near-featless character represent a rank as opposed to several other characters with extensive showings that are of that exact same rank. It makes no sense, unless you're willing to argue that Mizuki is on par with the guy who possessed a jutsu capable of sealing war arc Naruto's movements before he went KCM to escape his grasp.




> Well, Iruka is slower than all of the base Sound 4 besides Jirobo, but with the CS2 even he might be faster. He's inferior to Jirobo in taijutsu too, and he's inferior to the others in at least one stat each.



Post-timeskip Shikamaru is also inferior to these characters in those stats. What are you attempting to prove? Stats are roughly indicative of where a character stands overall, not of how a fight would go.




> Because Kakuzu couldn't turn massive and escape its AOE with Chou Baika no Jutsu.



Exactly, and neither can the Sound 4. I don't know why you keep trying to turn the discussion to Chouji when that's not who we're discussing. Abilities are important, context is equally important.




> See the above post I made in response to Gilgamesh. In 1v1s the Sound 4 love using AOE attacks. If they were going all out, they went all out without using AOE moves, because they couldn't.



You posted a few panels, half of which I wouldn't even consider AOE attacks so wide that they would actually impede the other Sound 4 members. I highly doubt Jirobo is going to be conscious of lifting some random big boulder when his own teammates are much faster than him.




> Except that I would argue the Sound 4 weren't at their full strength either, if their arsenals were limited. I do see your logic, but at the end of the day I would put a CS2 Sound 4 member closer in power to Genma or Raido than I would Iruka, Mizuki, Part I Shikamaru, Izumo etc. Even if there's a notable gap in power between the Sound 4 and Konoha's Tokubetsu Jounin, I feel that there is an even bigger one between the Sound 4 and Konoha's actual Chuunin.



This might be something we can agree on. If we're referring _only_ to their CS2 forms, I'm willing to agree that they're closer to Special Jounin than Chuunin in that state. As in, perhaps on the higher end of Chuunin or the lower end of Toukubetsu Jounin.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 30, 2015)

I think Hiruzen takes out the four of them easily.

Kimimaro is another case, when he's not sick and dying.

Kimimaro comes down to:
- Whether you think Enma can break/cut through Kimimaro's bones.
- Whether you think Kimimaro is skilled enough with his Kekkei Genkai to fight well against Hiruzen using Enma.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 30, 2015)

It feels like Godaime Tsunade vs The Battledome right now 




GilgameshXFate said:


> I suppose the amount of boost is determined by the Curse seal, but anyway they all had inferior base stats anyway so the Curse Seal just lets them catch up. And realistically if they were part of a Real Hidden Village they would be ranked based on their base abilities not their buffed Curse Seal State.



But their base stats are better than Yashamaru's, not inferior. So therefore in CS2 they could handle Gaara's sand attacks better. And that warrants them being stronger than Yashamaru was.



> Generally at least in Part 1 Rank is a pretty good indication of level of strength, *outliers not withstanding like Mizuki*. In physical Strength sure Chouji is > Shikamaru but in general power level Shikamaru > Chouji.



And therein lies the problem. Chouji, like all of the rookies, _is_ an outlier. Why is why rank cannot always determine battle prowess. And no, Shikamaru outright admits that Chouji _is the most powerful member of the SRA team_, he isn't talking about physical strength.



> Kotetsu and Izumo even being able to do anything to Kakuzu at all is a much better feat then anything SRA Chouji did, Like if you replaced SRA Chouji in that first contact with Kakuzu, Chouji would of been killed instantly.



But Izumo and Kotetsu didn't do anything. Kakuzu walked over Izumo's suiton and got caught, but still failed to come close to inflicting any damage. Kotetsu didn't do anything at all. Chouji could at least turn massive and throw a giant belly drop on him. It might not hurt him, but it would be further than Izumo or Kotetsu got.



> Thats because the only fight they've ever been in was against the Kage level Kakuzu, and the fact they didn't instantly die is more impressive then Chouji blitzing slow ass Jirobo.



No it isn't. They would have died instantly had Kakuzu wanted to kill them, but he was merciful and just _threw them away_ instead of ripping their hearts out.



> To be fair I'm pretty sure Kishimoto just didn't know he was gonna give these guys Hiraishin, because if he thought of it in part 1 Then Genma and Raidou should of destroyed these kids. But that being said it was said to be an ambush so they probably weren't ready to use Hiraishin.



Maybe so, who knows.​​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 30, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Fair enough. My point stands though in that it's not a foolproof way of arguing that the Sound 4 would have a significantly easier time with that version of Gaara.



I don't really see how your point stands. Yashamaru is obviously weaker, and a weaker shinobi will do worse against an opponent than someone whose better equipped to fight them (with higher speed and CS2 to boot ie. the Sound 4).  



> Statistically, both Yashamaru and Iruka are similar in prowess to post-timeskip Shikamaru barring his perfect score in intelligence. I certainly don't see Shikamaru _losing_ to any of the Sound 4 at that point in the series, so it doesn't exactly seem implausible that either character could put up a decent fight at the very least either.



And yet, Part II Shikamaru would obviously defeat both Iruka and Yashamaru if his performance against Hidan, Kakuzu and Asuma was anything to go by. What I also think it is quite key is that Shikamaru's intelligence is his defining feature, and its what makes him stronger than Iruka and Yashamaru, even if his other stats are comparable. Part II Shikamaru > The Sound 4 > Iruka and Yashamaru



> Bear in mind that I'm not arguing Yashamaru would actually beat any of them.



Good.



> Honestly, I think it's seriously baffling that you would put most Chuunin at Mizuki's level



I'm not putting any Chuunin at Mizuki's level per se. He's probably one of the weakest Chuunin-levels in the manga, he's just in the Chuunin tier. Other Chuunin are in the same tier, but higher up. Most Chuunin that aren't outliers like the Rookies can still be put in the same tier as someone like Mizuki without there realistically being a huge gap in power between, even if a gap does exist.



> when Mizuki himself is the one Chuunin that didn't actually DO anything in the manga aside from throwing a shuriken (something any run-of-the-mill Genin can do).



And yet, we know Mizuki is a Chuunin-level in strength because Kishimoto wouldn't have made him one for him to possess Wave Arc Sakura strength. He's stronger than any run-of-of-the-mill Genin. 



> Most Chuunin would be more around the same level as the ones we've actually seen in action, including Izumo, Kotetsu, the rookies, etc. You admitting that CE Sasuke possesses the power of a Chuunin already contradicts the idea of Mizuki being representative of the rank, especially when _we didn't even see him fight_.



The Rookies are outliers though. The rookies are Chuunin, but their rank does not dictate their strength because in actual fact they would destroy a lot of Jounin. Gated Rock Lee would annihilate Shizune for instance, Chouji would smash Shikaku Nara into the ground, Sakura would obliterate Asuma etc. Izumo and Kotetsu don't count, because their rank actually does dictate their strength. On a tier list they are perhaps high end Chuunin levels, but Chuunin levels all the same.



> If nothing else, I hope you can at least think about this and concede that Mizuki is an ill comparison here.



Mizuki is the basic, lowest level of Chuunin and he can used as a benchmark for others in the same tier. So no, I standby what I have already said.



> Based on what, and which Jounin are you referring to? Aside from the war, non-Team 7 rookies haven't shown anything that would make me believe they're beyond most Jounin. They haven't demonstrated any feats that were particularly deserving of that rank *before the final arc*.



Why would I be talking about the Rookies from any time before the final arc? That is their most recent performance before Part II ended.



> Mizuki being promoted doesn't detract from the fact that Mizuki's appearance was extremely brief, unlike several other Chuunin. It's irrational to have one near-featless character represent a rank as opposed to several other characters with extensive showings that are of that exact same rank. It makes no sense, unless you're willing to argue that Mizuki is on par with the guy who possessed a jutsu capable of sealing war arc Naruto's movements before he went KCM to escape his grasp.



Iruka's jutsu was not capable of that, it failed epicly and Naruto instantly escaped. As I've said, most Chuunin not suited to the Chuunin tier are outliers and I would rank them higher up on a tier list.



> Post-timeskip Shikamaru is also inferior to these characters in those stats. What are you attempting to prove? Stats are roughly indicative of where a character stands overall, not of how a fight would go.



They help us determine where a fight would go, but obviously it helps more to use feats alongside them. Part II Shikamaru possesses the feats to suggest that he could defeat the Sound 4, Iruka does not. And nothing of his feats suggest that he could.



> Exactly, and neither can the Sound 4. I don't know why you keep trying to turn the discussion to Chouji when that's not who we're discussing. Abilities are important, context is equally important.



The Sound 4 don't need to turn big, they can just end Izumo's life before he ever gets a chance to capitalise on his opponent being stuck. I brought Chouji up originally in a response to another poster, and you quoted me on it. That is why its repeatedly brought up into discussion. LostSelf's reasoning for the Sound 4 being weak was that Chouji was able to beat one of them. I merely pointed out that Chouji was a level above all other Chuunin we'd seen in Part I (and for much of Part II as well), and yet Jirobo more or less tied with him.



> You posted a few panels, half of which I wouldn't even consider AOE attacks so wide that they would actually impede the other Sound 4 members. I highly doubt Jirobo is going to be conscious of lifting some random big boulder when his own teammates are much faster than him.



They would impede the Sound 4 members in the area that they fought in, which was just an _average sized forest clearing_. They're all going for the same opponent, so they're all throwing attacks in the same places, and a large AOE attack could hit an ally if they're fighting in close range, which all of the Sound 4 often do.



> This might be something we can agree on. If we're referring _only_ to their CS2 forms, I'm willing to agree that they're closer to Special Jounin than Chuunin in that state. As in, perhaps on the higher end of Chuunin or the lower end of Toukubetsu Jounin.



This is exactly what I'm arguing. But why would I be arguing about their base forms? The curse seals are a part of their power and there is no reason to exclude them.​​


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## Nikushimi (Jun 30, 2015)

Hiruzen decimates these newbs.


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## The Undying (Jun 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I don't really see how your point stands. Yashamaru is obviously weaker, and a weaker shinobi will do worse against an opponent than someone whose better equipped to fight them (with higher speed and CS2 to boot ie. the Sound 4).



I agree that their performance would probably be better, especially when taking CS2 into account, but I used the term "significantly" to illustrate the argument that I don't see them faring _that_ much better against a somewhat bloodlusted Gaara. My point stands about the difference in performance not necessarily being a huge one.



> And yet, Part II Shikamaru would obviously defeat both Iruka and Yashamaru if his performance against Hidan, Kakuzu and Asuma was anything to go by. What I also think it is quite key is that Shikamaru's intelligence is his defining feature, and its what makes him stronger than Iruka and Yashamaru, even if his other stats are comparable. Part II Shikamaru > The Sound 4 > Iruka and Yashamaru



Based on Shikamaru's performance compared to Yashamaru's, I can certainly agree that Yashamaru would lose. Based on his performance compared to Iruka's performance, there's little to go on; all we really know is that Iruka has a similar binding ability, although its range appears to be limited compared to Shikamaru's. His intelligence is also inferior, but his Taijutsu and body strength are superior and his speed as well as several other things are in the same tier. Statistically they're more than comparable, they're nearly identical.

Even if Shikamaru could defeat Iruka, it doesn't follow that the Sound 4 could as well given that Shikamaru is also stronger than the Sound 4 members. Again, I'm saying there's nothing that would indicate that they're not in a similar ballpark, regardless of whether the Sound 4 members can edge out Iruka and Yashamaru or not individually. That's all.



> And yet, we know Mizuki is a Chuunin-level in strength because Kishimoto wouldn't have made him one for him to possess Wave Arc Sakura strength. He's stronger than any run-of-of-the-mill Genin.



Except there's nothing that would suggest this if we're talking feats. Mizuki didn't show _anything_ that would imply he's decisively above most Genin. He used techniques that were fully established to be Genin-level jutsu, and he didn't tactically use them in a way that would be considered divorced from the way an average Genin would use them. I definitely wouldn't place Naruto at the beginning of the series as a Chuunin-level shinobi, and he defeated Mizuki handily.

Your argument seems to be that he's the minimum level a Chuunin can be considering that he's a Chuunin, which is sound reasoning in itself, but you're using his very limited showings from the first chapter of the series as a benchmark, which is an outlier to the _entire Chuunin range_ if we're restricting his strength exclusively to what he's shown on-panel. Either we didn't see Mizuki use his full strength because they were Genin-level feats or the author wasn't being consistent, which is understandable since it was the beginning of the series anyway.



> Mizuki is the basic, lowest level of Chuunin and he can used as a benchmark for others in the same tier. So no, I standby what I have already said.



And again, if we're using Mizuki's feats as a benchmark, most Genin would _easily_ qualify for the Chuunin rank. You can stand by it, but it isn't going to make your standard any less... well, silly.




> Why would I be talking about the Rookies from any time before the final arc? That is their most recent performance before Part II ended.



I should have been more specific. When I referred to the rookies as being representative of typical Chuunin strength, I was mainly referring to their earlier versions from the beginning/middle of Part II (barring obvious outliers like Team 7). It's a more apt comparison because it's obviously much closer in time to when they were promoted, and my point is just that we've seen a bunch of Chuunin-level ninja in action.




> Iruka's jutsu was not capable of that, it failed epicly and Naruto instantly escaped.



Naruto triggered KCM, then escaped. Besides, the point wasn't that Iruka would give even base Naruto any difficulty in a fight, but that Iruka was capable of binding something as powerful as Naruto's _base_ form. I'd say that feat alone puts him at a fair shot against one of the Sound 4 members, provided they're not immediately going CS2. Again, though, there's very little to go on because we haven't seen Iruka in extensive combat. I'd prefer if we just dropped this point because I don't see it going anywhere to be perfectly honest.



> They help us determine where a fight would go



Aside from more quantifiable aspects like speed, they really don't. They don't include individual Ninjutsu techniques or anything of that nature. They're just meant to provide a general outline of where a specific shinobi would stand overall as far as fundamental ninja skills are concerned.



> The Sound 4 don't need to turn big, they can just end Izumo's life before he ever gets a chance to capitalise on his opponent being stuck.



Based on what? How do you know that Izumo isn't physically fast enough to capitalize, especially when both himself and Kotetsu are known to specialize in surprise attacks?



> They would impede the Sound 4 members in the area that they fought in, which was just an _average sized forest clearing_. They're all going for the same opponent, so they're all throwing attacks in the same places, and a large AOE attack could hit an ally if they're fighting in close range, which all of the Sound 4 often do.



Please, it's an open forest clearing. There are plenty of ways for them to communicate and cooperate with the synergy they've shown, so large AOE attacks aren't going to impede much. You still haven't explained how Jirobo is going to accidentally hit his own teammates with some big rock when they're all much faster than him. Honestly, that just _sounds_ ridiculous. 

Also, you continue to conveniently ignore the fact that they've already said they were going all-out against two worn down Special Jounin that weren't even given an indication of being any stronger than your standard run-of-the-mill Special Jounin ninja. The gap is there, and they were outclassed individually. I don't know how much more obvious this can get.



> This is exactly what I'm arguing. But why would I be arguing about their base forms? The curse seals are a part of their power and there is no reason to exclude them.[/indent][/justify]



I'm aware of that, and I'm saying that it's a point I'm willing to concede to if you're willing to agree that at the absolute most it just places them somewhere between your average Chuunin and Toukubetsu Jounin. That's being generous, frankly. There isn't going to be a significant gap between them and the median Chuunin-level, in case that's what you're wanting clarified.


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## Reznor (Jul 1, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Here ya go


I can't really take that line seriously. If accepted, it would mean Kimimaro > Orochimaru. Kabuto was just building him up. It's like Zabuza's "noone's faster than Haku!"


Godaime Tsunade said:


> I don't think either of those zombies were Kage-level, hence why Hiruzen could stand up to them in the first place. By Tobirama's own admission, _he and his brother weren't revived nearly as powerful_ as they were in Part II. I'd place Part I Edo Hashirama and Tobirama as Jounin levels.
> 
> As for Orochimaru, he stood by and watched for most of the match. If he'd gone seriously against Hiruzen, he would've died quickly.​


He fought all three at once as soon as Enma came out.

And, Part 1 Hashi and Tobi are still Kage level.​


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## Trojan (Jul 1, 2015)

According to Turrin's translation Kabuto meant out of those whom Kimmimaro was headed to. O_O


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## LostSelf (Jul 1, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't know why people keep saying Itachi beat Orochimaru without the MS as if they saw the whole fight.



Actually, i guess Itachi put Orochimaru in genjutsu before he knew it and before a fight started. Wich is why Orochimaru still was thinking he was walking behind Itachi with an attempt of backstabbing him.

Unless Itachi can make somebody forget some recent events (like being fighting him), wich would make him heavily overpowered.

I think a fight never started, as Itachi found out his intentions beforehand and put him in genjutsu.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 1, 2015)

What do you mean Orochimaru was still thinking he was walking behind Itachi?



Godaime Tsunade said:


> It was the Suijinheki, a B Rank technique. Kakashi and Zabuza were using techniques of a similar rank at the start of Part I, but that no more made them Kage-level shinobi than this does. Granted, he could _additionally_ perform suitons without a source, but even that doesn't necessarily make him Kage-level in power.​​



What the water source affects is the amount of water that can be used , so when the Anbu talks about Tobirama casting such a high level technique where there is no water, "high level" refers to the volume of water being produced, not the rank of the technique. It's as one would expect from a former Hokage because of the actual power displayed.

I don't see how you're taking "This is what it means to be at the Hokage-level" as them being Jōnin level.



> For a start, taking out some explosive tags and wrapping them around someone's legs is not quite the same as drizzling a little bit of blood on a scythe. The former takes longer and can be felt, the second takes a shorter amount of time and cannot.



I think it would be much easier to notice somebody take out a vial of blood and apply it to the tip of your scythe from the other end of that scythe, than it would be to notice a piece of paper be taken and slipped onto your already clothed leg as you physically strike them and buckle them over.



> Secondly, Part II Shikamaru's talents are rather unassuming, I wouldn't be so quick to rub him off as an unimpressive character.



Yet you would rub off displays explicitly labeled Kage level as less impressive than that.



> But that was different. Neither Kakuzu nor Hidan are high-top tier speedsters, or indeed high-top tier characters at all..but the Senju bros are. There's no way someone with average speed like Hiruzen could ever "sneakily" put explosive tags on someone of their calibre. They would have to be _significantly_ weaker for that to ever happen.



A large difference in speed doesn't necessarily prevent that from happening, as Tobirama demonstrated against Jūbito. Also, Hiruzen wouldn't be sent flying from the strike faster just because Hashirama and Tobirama are fast characters, so yes Hiruzen could sneakily put notes on them.

Nobody has contested that they were significantly weaker. The question is about whether or not that reduced them all the way to beneath the Kage level.



> As for why Orochimaru didn't notice, it probably boils down to how arrogant he was throughout the match's duration.



He was being arrogant, not inattentive. If he wants to watch Hiruzen squirm (and he does) he will be paying attention to Hiruzen.



> The Sannin were in no way "scaled down" in Part I.



We had no idea what the Sannin operating at their true level would have even looked like back then, so I'm not exactly sure how you could possibly know that.



> Previous power levels were never outright contradicted imo. Adding to that, Tobirama outwardly admitted that these zombies were weaker than the ones Orochimaru revived in Part II .. so I see no reason to assume that the Edo Tobirama and Edo Hashirama were "scaled down".



Previous power levels were contradicted when fodders replicated Tobirama's Suiton feat, Hashirama became the strongest Hokage, and the powerscale grew so wide that it was possible to solo 5 Kage at once with apparent ease.

Most relevantly they were when old Hiruzen manifested 5 clones and had them all launch powerful elemental blasts simultaneously, because Edo Tensei still experience the inherent costs of techniques and _can_ run out of Chakra before it replenishes as Mū, Gengetsu, Minato, Tobirama, and even Hashirama made clear.

Edo or not that was not a feat elderly Hiruzen would have been capable of had power inflation not occurred, unless you just missed Hiruzen breathing hard in pretty much every panel after his attack on Orochimaru was repelled and Orochimaru taking note of it while Enma asked what was wrong with him back in Part 1, despite having used no clones yet and none of the Jutsu he had used up to that point being nearly as large as what he performed five times over against Zetsu.



> Kishimoto has given us a perfectly reasonable explanation.



Not for what you're trying to argue.

We're not discussing whether or not Hashirama and Tobirama were weaker than the originals or even the second casting of Edo Tensei, we're discussing whether or not they went from the highest of the high tier to so weak that they dropped out of the Kage class altogether.

There is _*no*_ perfectly reasonable explanation for people that aren't any stronger than Jōnin levels countering and overwhelming a Kage while playing around and having their battle with said Kage labeled Kage level.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> That was the whole fight mate.
> He tried to ambush Itachi, or approached Itachi with ill intent(and Itachi sensed it) and got genjutsu GG'd.



And the evidence for that as opposed to anything else is?



> Going by the fact that there was no panting or scuff marks, or robe removal there wasn't a battle before the genjutsu, and Orochimaru didn't seem like he wanted to fight anymore after he lost the hand.



Going by that logic Naruto and Sasuke didn't fight on top of the roof, Kakashi didn't fight Shōten Itachi before his clone was caught in a Genjutsu, and Kisame didn't fight Roshi.

I don't think Orochimaru grabbing his hand as the Genjutsu was dispelled is suggestive of him not persisting afterwards. Worse has happened to Orochimaru only for him to continue, and he kept advancing towards Sasuke _after_ remarking that it was just like that time, so I'm not convinced that the encounter was necessarily ended by the severing of his hand there.

Itachi was familiar enough with Yamata no Jutsu that he could name it off based off of the feel of its presence while Orochimaru was only surprised that Itachi turned out to have possessed the Totsuka, though, and again, implicit in Orochimaru's comment about being impaled is that Itachi ought to know better than to expect such a wound to stop him, which would be strange if severing his hand was sufficient for that.

This only compounds the issue of how Kakashi behaved so differently when Orochimaru confronted him than he did against an Itachi whose base abilities and Tsukuyomi he was aware of, and how even after that fight Kakashi figured that Jiraiya's presence deterred them from making a move on Naruto.

It makes more sense that Orochimaru and Itachi proceeded to have a "full" battle and upon being countered even then Orochimaru gave up on trying to take Itachi, than Itachi being able to beat Orochimaru with his base abilities does.


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## Trojan (Jul 1, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Actually, i guess Itachi put Orochimaru in genjutsu before he knew it and before a fight started. Wich is why Orochimaru still was thinking he was walking behind Itachi with an attempt of backstabbing him.
> 
> Unless Itachi can make somebody forget some recent events (like being fighting him), wich would make him heavily overpowered.
> 
> I think a fight never started, as Itachi found out his intentions beforehand and put him in genjutsu.



that would actually make sense. I never understood how itachi could have possible putting Oro under his genjutsu when Oro was behind him, and not even looking to his eyes!


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> And the evidence for that as opposed to anything else is?


I presented the evidence below. There was absolutely 0 evidence to suggest that the fight was dragged, before or after that. You are making that claim because you are probably one of the Itachi = Jiraiya bandwagoner relics from 10 years ago.



> Going by that logic Naruto and Sasuke didn't fight on top of the roof, Kakashi didn't fight Shōten Itachi before his clone was caught in a Genjutsu, and Kisame didn't fight Roshi.


We saw Kakashi disengaging from Shouten Itachi, so we know they fought during the time Naruto was struggling with genjutsu. We know exactly when the fight started.

We didn't jump to Kisame's fight at any point, we were only shown the aftermath. And Kisame has Samehada, he likely healed.

I have to check back @ Naruto & Sasuke.



> I don't think Orochimaru grabbing his hand as the Genjutsu was dispelled is suggestive of him not persisting afterwards. Worse has happened to Orochimaru only for him to continue, and he kept advancing towards Sasuke _after_ remarking that it was just like that time, so I'm not convinced that the encounter was necessarily ended by the severing of his hand there.



But thats what happened. Probably like us the readers, Orochimaru also understood that Itachi could have gone for his head, but for some reason he chose to go for the hand. That was enough to demonstrate who the top dog was, there was no reason to continue fighting any further.
Orochimaru's facial expression, and the smug look on Itachi's face along with the punch line "all of your jutsus are useless against these eyes" are pretty much the comfirmation that  we need to understand that the fight ended then and there.



> Itachi was familiar enough with Yamata no Jutsu that he could name it off based off of the feel of its presence while Orochimaru was only surprised that Itachi turned out to have possessed the Totsuka, though, and again, implicit in Orochimaru's comment about being impaled is that Itachi ought to know better than to expect such a wound to stop him, which would be strange if severing his hand was sufficient for that.



Itachi could have witnessed Yamata no jutsu in another occasion.
Also the hand thing was significant, he even kept it in a fucking Jar like a souvenir.
So no, removing the hand was a significant blow no matter how you look @ it.
Orochimaru still relies on his hands to perform seals, and considering how obsessed he is with learning and performing various jutsu, he probably panicked and ran away because he was afraid that there was a chance he could lose more. He likely would.



> This only compounds the issue of how Kakashi behaved so differently when Orochimaru confronted him than he did against an Itachi whose base abilities and Tsukuyomi he was aware of, and how even after that fight Kakashi figured that Jiraiya's presence deterred them from making a move on Naruto.


Kakashi wasn't aware of Tsukiyomi. He considered Itachi could have had the MS, but he had absolutely no knowledge on its abilities. And he considered that as a remote possibility, as he was genuinely *surprised and terrified* when Itachi pulled it out.
Even after learning about Tsukiyomi, he probably heard from Jiraiya that he was able to "chase" Itachi  away. So Kakashi probably thought that was the extent of Itachi's ability and didn't question it further.

I mean, after the skip, he was confident enough for a rematch, with 0 knowledge on Amaterasu and Susano'o. I think we shouldn't dwell on how confident or terrified people are of each other.
Most of the time, it doesn't worth a damn.



> It makes more sense that Orochimaru and Itachi proceeded to have a "full" battle and upon being countered even then Orochimaru gave up on trying to take Itachi, than Itachi being able to beat Orochimaru with his base abilities does.


It actually doesn't. 
I don't think the author's intention was ever to make us think that they had an all out battle or anything. It was simply to show that Itachi was stronger, and Itachi was able to emphasize that in a short exchange.
Orochimaru doesn't need to get his ass destroyed to come to that conclusion and retreat.


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## Trojan (Jul 1, 2015)

the amount of years does not make X wrong, or Y right. People still wank Tsukuyomi when it only has the feat of defeating part 1 Kakashi. And all the statement about its power is also from that time which is before itachi admitted that he is weaker than Jiraiya. However, you don't see people ignoring that hype most of the time...


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## Icegaze (Jul 1, 2015)

they kill him 
his part 1 self that gets tired after 2 or so jutsu +KB

yh low diff the old man

he got katon which can be trolled, doton wall which is irrelevant, enma which there is no reason to believe it can break kimi bones, and shiruken which can be counter by the most basic of doton walls or even kidomaru webs 

if we give him his war arc feats surely he wipes sound 4 then beats kimi 

but with just what he showed in part 1. i find it scary people believe he would win


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

Hussain said:


> the amount of years does not make X wrong, or Y right. People still wank Tsukuyomi when it only has the feat of defeating part 1 Kakashi. And all the statement about its power is also from that time which is before itachi admitted that he is weaker than Jiraiya. However, you don't see people ignoring that hype most of the time...



The difference is, there are fuckloads of evidence on why Itach =/= Jiraiya while there hasn't been any contrary evidence about Tsukiyomi oneshotting people who don't have  the requirements to break it.


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## Hachibi (Jul 1, 2015)

Hussain said:


> the amount of years does not make X wrong, or Y right. People still wank Tsukuyomi when it only has the feat of defeating part 1 Kakashi. And all the statement about its power is also from that time which is before itachi admitted that he is weaker than Jiraiya. However, you don't see people ignoring that hype most of the time...



>2015
>Still believing that hype


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## FlamingRain (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I presented the evidence below.



You didn't.

We saw no panting or scuff marks, or clothing removal in any of those examples I just named off, and we _know_ that they fought before that. So the lack thereof does not evidence nothing happening before Itachi landed that Genjutsu.

There is absolutely no evidence that what we saw was all that happened, and Itachi needs the Mangekyō to pose a threat to Orochimaru by feats.



> You are making that claim because you are probably one of the Itachi = Jiraiya bandwagoner relics from 10 years ago.



I joined in 2013 and have said Itachi was stronger since then.

There is a world of difference between thinking Itachi requires his Mangekyō to beat certain people, and thinking said people are equal to Itachi fullstop.

So, thank you for showing once again that you don't know what you're talking about and really shouldn't be talking about others at all.



> But thats what happened.



Repeating yourself doesn't do anything.

Orochimaru has shown similar facial expressions expressions against Team 7 in  the Forest of Death, Hiruzen and Enma, Kn4, and even _Sasuke_. It hardly marks the end of the fight. We know the Genjutsu didn't make him give up because he tried to break it himself, and losing his hand shouldn't have because that's not even as bad as losing his entire arm which he quickly replaced when messing around with Naruto before proceeding to continue.

Itachi could go for Orochimaru's head if he wanted to, and then another Orochimaru would just _come out of his stomach or something_. The real Orochimaru is a conglomerate of snakes that can _be decapitated_ and then sit right back up, so he would be fine.

That injury isn't something that should frighten Orochimaru, so there's no reason to think it ended the encounter. It makes more sense that they continued, which would explain them being familiar with each others most powerful abilities, especially given that featwise, Itachi is only a threat to Orochimaru using his Mangekyō techniques.



> Kakashi wasn't aware of Tsukiyomi.



He was aware of Tsukuyomi, he just underestimated how potent it was. He clearly understood enough about it to know that it was a level of power _beyond_ anything Itachi might throw at them _in base_, though, because it was what drew out the most concern, so it still undercuts the _base Itachi_ > Orochimaru bs.



> I don't think the author's intention was ever to make us think that they had an all out battle or anything.



The author's intention was never to make us think that Itachi was above Orochimaru and all his techniques with only his base abilities whenJiraiya forced him to resort to Amaterasu to escape one of his base techniques.

The flashback serves no purpose other than to show how similar Sasuke had become to Itachi.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 1, 2015)

> But that was different. Neither Kakuzu nor Hidan are high-top tier speedsters, or indeed high-top tier characters at all..but the Senju bros are. There's no way someone with average speed like Hiruzen could ever "sneakily" put explosive tags on someone of their calibre. They would have to be significantly weaker for that to ever happen.



That's the kind of stuff you can do with Tier 5 taijutsu.


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