# Which verse has the strongest high tiers in the HST?



## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

Naruto Examples- Itachi, Minato(base), Tobirama, KCM Minato, EMS Sasuke (prior to legged version) 4 edo Kage (Mu, Trollkage, Sandaime Rai, and Yondame Kaze)

Bleach Examples: Upper tier Sternritter-Bambi, Bazz B, As Nodt, Mask, Shinji, Shunsui, Kurama (human form) Renji, Rukia, Pre Unohana training Kenpachi, pre RS Byakuya, Pre royal guard Ichigo.

One Piece Examples: Luffy, Zoro, Law, Sanji, Cavendish, Don Chinjao, Doflamingo, Vista, Jozu, Vergo, Pica, Diamante, Sabo, Jinbei


Whose verse has the strongest characters?


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## LineageCold (May 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Naruto Examples- Itachi, Minato(base), *Tobirama*, *KCM Minato*, *EMS Sasuke *(prior to legged version) 4 edo Kage (Mu, Trollkage, *Sandaime Rai* and Yondame Kaze)
> 
> Bleach Examples: Upper tier Sternritter-Bambi, Bazz B, As Nodt, Mask, Shinji, Shunsui, Kurama (human form) Renji, Rukia, Pre Unohana training Kenpachi, pre RS Byakuya, Pre royal guard Ichigo.
> 
> ...



The bolded are Top tiers.

But for the topic matter, I'll go with Naruto. (I will give reasons why after I'm done with something)


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## Byrd (May 26, 2014)

Counting all the number of high-tiers in OP... I will give it to OP base of sheer numbers


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## Chad (May 26, 2014)

Zolo is high tier in OP? :ignoramus


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## Iwandesu (May 26, 2014)

The ones LineageCold Bolded are faster and stronger than any god tier from bleach. 
Kenpachi and gremmy are top tiers now no matter how you cut it. 
SM Nardo is stronger than any high tier of bleach(the ones with CO-lanza scalling) due to being faster(Mach 70) and stronger(50 mt). 
Finally i wouldn't call monster trio high tier (they are likely borderline, though)
I second LineageCold answer, but hax might help one piece sometimes here.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

I don't consider the bolded ones Top tiers expect for the Raikage in the case that he tanked a charged BB and possibly Tobirama depending on a few factors (mainly him keeping up while they were fighting Juubi and having hax like Edo Tensei. Nagato always seemed like the gate keeper of high tiers in Naruto. Top tier in Naruto start at Bijuu level or higher at the least, meaning high tier caps off in the gigatons which is blatantly above the other verses' high tiers


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## LazyWaka (May 26, 2014)

The monster trio (or at the very least Luffy) should at least be pushing mid-high tier in OP.

I've always sorta considered Pacifista's to be at the top of mid tier status.


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## LineageCold (May 26, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> The ones LineageCold Bolded are faster and stronger than any god tier from bleach.
> Kenpachi and gremmy are top tiers now no matter how you cut it.
> SM Nardo is stronger than any high tier of bleach(the ones with CO-lanza scalling) due to being faster(Mach 70) and stronger(50 mt).
> Finally i wouldn't call monster trio high tier (they are likely borderline, though)
> I second LineageCold answer, but hax might help one piece sometimes here.




yup.

I also agree with Byrd, Op has more high tiers than Both Naruto & bleach.


But if we were to rank them in tiers based on there abilities.

Kakashi/w Kamui
Muu -500 gigaton DC + untraceable invisibility.
onoki- 500 gigaton DC + flight
Itachi - Numerous genjutsu + sussano
Obito/w per war arc- Intangibility + kamui  

They would be above most of the high tiers listed for OP & bleach.


But if it were naruto high tiers vs OP high tiers in a match, OP would most likely take it due to out numbering them.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 26, 2014)

Tobirama,minato/kcm minato nor beastkage should be top tiers with their stats/movesets. Nagato could probably take them all on at the same time(in teams of two).

As for the thread the bleach high tier selection looks good but the guys on their are lacking really good feats. Also shunsui should be a top tier unless you give him hell over feats.

One piece simply put has too much untapped potential and on the other hand narutoverse high tiers have become pretty much fleshed out(and irrelevant ). If everything goes right feat wise one piece should win this.


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## LineageCold (May 26, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> *Tobirama,minato/kcm minato nor beastkage should be top tiers with their stats/movesets. Nagato could probably take them all on at the same time*(in teams of two).
> 
> As for the thread the bleach high tier selection looks good but the guys on their are lacking really good feats. Also shunsui should be a top tier unless you give him hell over feats.
> 
> One piece simply put has too much untapped potential and on the other hand narutoverse high tiers have become pretty much fleshed out(and irrelevant ). If everything goes right feat wise one piece should win this.



Not really.

Nagato would lose baldy. One of them is enough to merk him.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

Is the Raikage's durabiliy correlated to his armor? or is it natural durability?


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## Iwandesu (May 26, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Tobirama,minato/*kcm minato nor beastkage *should be top tiers with their stats/movesets. Nagato could probably take them all on at the same time(in teams of two).
> 
> As for the thread the bleach high tier selection looks good but the guys on their are lacking really good feats. Also shunsui should be a top tier unless you give him hell over feats.
> 
> One piece simply put has too much untapped potential and on the other hand narutoverse high tiers have become pretty much fleshed out(and irrelevant ). If everything goes right feat wise one piece should win this.


Kcm minato is easily escallable to kcm nardo. (Which stomps bleach and OP god tiers)
Beastkage is at least 2 digit gigaton due to tanking a uncharged bijjudama from gyuki.(and can pierce himself).
at worst beastkage is not beating Nagato. Kcm beat the hell out him. (Sadly, Nagato is even below than current Kenpachi).
OP only hope is numbers. They are outclassed on dc and dura, but make it with speed, numbers and hax.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

There's so many high tiers in One Piece that we might as well make a stronger cut off point for them, but it seems like each high tier in HST starts at some level of town+ or so, so I guess by that logic they qualify


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## LineageCold (May 26, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Is the Raikage's durabiliy correlated to his armor? or is it natural durability?



Only his Raiton armor .



iwandesu said:


> Kcm minato is easily escallable to kcm nardo. (Which stomps bleach and OP god tiers)
> Beastkage is at least 2 digit gigaton due to tanking a uncharged bijjudama from gyuki.(and can pierce himself).
> at worst* beastkage is not beating Nagato* Kcm beat the hell out him. (Sadly, Nagato is even below than current Kenpachi).
> OP only hope is numbers. They are outclassed on dc and dura, but make it with speed, numbers and hax.




I wouldn't go that far, Nagato might have a DC advantage but the third usually goes CQC when fighting & when the moment he does, he can easily slice nagato in many pieces.

As for Bm minito, we scaled him to Bm Naruto (who has double digit megaton causal slaps) which would K.O nagato before he can get off a CT.

And for tobirama, he has a Combat/travel/hand to hand speed advantage, almost everyone one of his attacks could fuck nagato over. 

(I might give a more detail reply on why nagato loses later)


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> The bolded are Top tiers.
> 
> But for the topic matter, I'll go with Naruto. (I will give reasons why after I'm done with something)



None of them are top tiers. Saindaime is a tank but when it comes to people like BM Naruto, PS EMS Sasuke, Hashi, etc he can't compare. KCM Minato is not, BM Minato is. EMS sasuke prior to gaining legs was outsmarted/outperformed by edo itachi, and Tobirama is not even stronger than Base Minato.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

Minato doesn't have KCM, just BM which puts him in the top tier.

Actually if Raikage's durability is due to his armor then Nagato can absorb it while sacrificing his Asura arm

As far as Tobirama goes it's hard to say where his DC lies but his speed should be on the same level or higher and he's got hax like Hiraishin and Edo Tensei (I'd say with his Kinjutsu he has an edge over base Minato)


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 26, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> Not really.
> 
> Nagato would lose baldy. One of them is enough to merk him.


Raikage has no way around flight, soul sucking or preta path absorbing his chakra shroud. It is a horrid match-up. Add in a summon he can't see or detect, one he can't kill and the fact he will get bombarded with CST or trapped in CT and it's clear who has the upper hand. 

Minato and tobirama lacks offense seeing as nagato casually shrugged off the impact of bee's V2 lariat. Sneak ST from the chameleon or CT ends them.



iwandesu said:


> Kcm minato is easily escallable to kcm nardo. (Which stomps bleach and OP god tiers)


What has kcm minato naruto shown to be scaled to kcm naruto. Naruto big guns come from FRS and minato showed no new rasengan variants. How is he getting this?



> Beastkage is at least 2 digit gigaton due to tanking a uncharged bijjudama from gyuki.(and can pierce himself).


How will third hit him with nukite. Animal renders him unable to reach or detect nagato who can sneak up and soulfuck him. Heck a ST might make third raikages own nukite pierce himself.


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Minato doesn't have KCM, just BM which puts him in the top tier.
> 
> Actually if Raikage's durability is due to his armor then Nagato can absorb it while sacrificing his Asura arm
> 
> As far as Tobirama goes it's hard to say where his DC lies but his speed should be on the same level or higher and he's got hax like Hiraishin and Edo Tensei (I'd say with his Kinjutsu he has an edge over base Minato)



I thought when he first gained the other Kyuubi's power he showed an RM cloak which later switched into a BM cloak?

He has a naturally strong body like Ei, but most of it comes from his lightning armor. Doesn't matter Nagato stomps.

Minato's Hirahsin is more efective, and versatile. Tobirama's Edo tensei's are nigh featless and we don't know how long it takes him to set up or if he keeps any prep, or did prior to his death.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 26, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> As far as Tobirama goes it's hard to say where his DC lies but his speed should be on the same level or higher and he's got hax like Hiraishin and Edo Tensei (I'd say with his Kinjutsu he has an edge over base Minato)



Who can he summon with edo tensei? Not to mention his edo tensei are not even as advanced pt 1 oro's. By feats that jutsu is just nothing.


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

*Naruto's Tier list:*
*God Tier*
Kaguya
Rikudo sennin
Prime Juubi

*Demi- God Tier*
Current Madara
Current Sauce/Naruto
8th Gate Gai
Rikudo Obito

*Top Tier*
SM Hashirama
EMS Madara
EMS Sauce/BSM Naruto
Rinne Obito w/ Bjuu/BM Minato
Nagato
SM Kabuto (no ET)

There is no place on the list for Sandaime Raikage, even KCM Naruto is outclassed by everyone but maybe SM Kabuto pending the circumstances. There is already 2 forms of Naruto on the top tier list or higher it is absurd to think he would have 3 forms which have different power levels on the Top Tier list.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> *Naruto's Tier list:*
> *God Tier*
> Kaguya
> Rikudo sennin
> ...



EMS Sauce isn't even close to BM Naruto and all he has going for him is PS


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> EMS Sauce isn't even close to BM Naruto



You thought.

EMS Sasuke with perfect Susano is definitely on his level. Him and Naruto were portrayed on the same level most of the time. There isn't much Naruto can throw out PS can't handle for the most part. BM Naruto isn't beating him with anything lower than high difficulty. It legitimately be like EMS Madara vs Base Hashirama.


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## B Rabbit (May 26, 2014)

One Piece high tiers

Prime Don Chinjao
Doffy
Luffy
Law
Zoro
Kidd
Trebol
Vergo
Diamente
Pica
Bartolomeo
Cavendish/Hakuba
Old Chinjao


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## Chad (May 26, 2014)

Why would prime Chinjao and old Chinjao be in the same tier


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## B Rabbit (May 26, 2014)

That's just showing the range in the tier.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> You thought.
> 
> EMS Sasuke with perfect Susano is definitely on his level. Him and Naruto were portrayed on the same level most of the time. There isn't much Naruto can throw out PS can't handle for the most part. BM Naruto isn't beating him with anything lower than high difficulty. It legitimately be like EMS Madara vs Base Hashirama.



Portrayal isn't the same as feats. Sasuke's PS is at most scaled to Madara's which is Island+. Naruto is pushing country level in BM


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Portrayal isn't the same as feats. Sasuke's PS is at most scaled to Madara's which is Island+. Naruto is pushing country level in BM



Sasuke's susano protected the Kyuubi Susano sword from the dNA sword and it broke through so I would think Sasuke in PS can get close enough that Naruto can't just spam Bjuddama balls or rays. Also Madara's PS protected Kurama from the 1, 000 hands which blew through a dozen TBB/Susano blade projectiles.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 26, 2014)

Yeah, there's no reason Sage Kabuto should even be on that list, Dr. White.

Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto would kick the shit out of him.


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## LineageCold (May 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> None of them are top tiers. Saindaime is a tank but when it comes to people like BM Naruto, PS EMS Sasuke, Hashi, etc he can't compare. KCM Minato is not, BM Minato is. EMS sasuke prior to gaining legs was outsmarted/outperformed by edo itachi, and Tobirama is not even stronger than Base Minato.



Your getting it mix up, Bm Miniato is not the same as RM Naruto. Minito just has a different art design.


*Spoiler*: __ 





[/IMG]

There using the same mode, just different art designs.







blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Raikage has no way around* flight, soul sucking or preta path absorbing *his chakra shroud. It is a horrid match-up. Add in a summon he can't see or detect, one he can't kill and the fact he will get bombarded with* CST or trapped in CT *and it's clear who has the upper hand.



This would be Implying that he would have a chance to pull all of these off, Nagato only has reactions, while The third has the big speed advantage , the time nagato tries to summon/form a seal is the second Raikage would cross the distance & merk him.




> Minato and tobirama lacks offense seeing as nagato casually shrugged off the impact of bee's V2 lariat. Sneak ST from the chameleon or CT ends them.



.
(I don't need to explain why this would merk nagato) 

(This one is easily scalable to the one he used on Sm madara)

(Sm Madara had to resort to blocking Tobiramas water bullets with his sussano)

Tobirama is faster than the Third Raikage , so imagine how fast he would execute this on somebody like nagato.

I don't even need to explain Bm minito.






> How will third hit him with nukite. Animal renders him unable to reach or detect nagato who can sneak up and soulfuck him. Heck a ST might make third raikages own nukite pierce himself.



Like I said earlier, nagato has the reactions to see the third, but he lacks the combat speed to even move in time before the third cleaves him in two.

Technically speaking, he can react to his own death.


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Yeah, there's no reason Sage Kabuto should even be on that list, Dr. White.
> 
> Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto would kick the shit out of him.



Yang Manipulation, Sage enhanced Sound 4 jutsu, SM physical buffs/reactions, Orochimaru's endurance, Karin's Vitality, Suigetsu's Liquidication, constant Nature gathering, Manda 2.0/other snakes and Hagukei? He can definitely hold a candle to pretty much anyone in the verse not in the Demi God/god Tiers and KCM Naruto/


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

Reactions are enough to take a hit with Asura and then Preta absorb his shroud


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> Your getting it mix up, Bm Miniato is not the same as RM Naruto. Minito just has a different art design.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




Nah Idk man. Minato never showed that much power output until him and Naruto exchanged chakra's via fist.
- resembles  more closely than does 

It is very possible Naruto gave him more chakra or access to more on Yin Kurama's power.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

It's a wonder how Minato can access that form regardless since he's been dead, same thing goes for SM. Minato seems to benefit a lot from lol Kishi


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## LineageCold (May 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Nah Idk man. Minato never showed that much power output until him and *Naruto exchanged chakra's via fist.*
> - resembles  more closely than does
> 
> It is very possible Naruto gave him more chakra or access to more on Yin Kurama's power.



That's a vague assumption ur making.



And ur wrong, they were bumping fist to connect (to FTG everybody outside the barrier before the bb explode) he didn't give him any chakra.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 26, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> This would be Implying that he would have a chance to pull all of these off, Nagato only has reactions, while The third has the big speed advantage , the time nagato tries to summon/form a seal is the second Raikage would cross the distance & merk him.


With just a thought he can use ST no movement needed. Third raikage gets sent flying like the gama trio did. From there on nagato got a bunch of time to set up. Also the preta path can be used with just thought so third raikage just get his raiton shroud absorbed when he gets close.






> .
> (I don't need to explain why this would merk nagato)
> 
> (This one is easily scalable to the one he used on Sm madara)
> ...



Tobirama has zero edo tensei usage feats so that jutsu cannot be used by his living self. Not to mention summoning them, and setting them up with the mind control seals gives nagato plenty of time to blast him with CST. 

But lets say he can some summon some anbu fodder they are getting avoided by flight, left unable to find nagato by the chameleon and soul fucked(perfect counter to edos). Keep in mind this jutsu only hit a unfocused juubito and even hiruzen could run and escape to safety before it went off. Nagato will not be hit with that unless he just decided to stand there.

Preta path sucks up all those water techniques those are pretty worthless. 



> I don't even need to explain Bm minito.


BM sure he rapes. I though you were talking about the cloak without the kurama shroud.


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

They were meshing chakra's so that Naruto/Minato's chakra could be connected for the FTG, so in a sense they exchanged chakra's so each could do their part. It is a fact that he didn't use any attacks with considerable DC up until the moment he and Naruto used their Kurama forms together. 

KCM Minato is essentially a faster Base Minato. The thing is Minato has to be an edo for any form of kyuubi to work., he can't handle it while alive. So that gives him an added benefit of being an edo.


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## Byrd (May 26, 2014)

Anything stronger than a PX and weaker than an Admiral is high-tier in OP verse

A lot of high-tiers are packing megaton DC


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

Byrd said:


> Anything stronger than a PX and weaker than an Admiral is high-tier in OP verse



Essentially, although in Low Top tier I have people like Marco, fujitora Gura/yami teach, Sabo, and current rayleigh whom I think are just about admiral level but could fight the original color trio them for a decent amount of time before losing.


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## Byrd (May 26, 2014)

Teach is a top-tier that has been confirmed by the manga... he became a yonko without even using Gura-Gura


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

I don't agree with Sabo being scaled to Marco's level, he's probably around Doflamingo level


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

I meant pre skip Gura Teach as I have no idea how powerful he is other than his top tier hype/Yonko acheivment. But I see him as like the law of the of yonko. Powerful but not at the top due to his recent placement there.



MusubiKazesaru said:


> I don't agree with Sabo being scaled to Marco's level, he's probably around Doflamingo level


I'll admit that is a leap on my part solely based off powerscaling/ hype. He pretty much bested Diamante and burgess through pure physical skill and Haki alone. No one in that competition was on his level including Burgess and Luffy from what we saw. Luffy is solid mid High Tier in his verse, and burgess should atleast be Mid high tier given his position in a yonko's crew. given the ease in which he handled said foes in the collasseum I would say that even before the Mera sabo could have given Doflamingo one hell of a fight. With the Mera - Mera he becomes a powerhouse with atleast multi city block firepower.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> *He can definitely hold a candle to pretty much anyone in the verse not in the Demi God/god Tiers *and KCM Naruto/



He's not holding a candle to anyone in the top-tier range, what are you smoking? 

You have the likes of Tailed Beast Naruto, Sage Hashirama, and Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Madara in that range. Kabuto would casually be obliterated by all three.

My point is, Sage Kabuto shouldn't be on  the top-tier list to begin with. He's shown nothing even remotely close to the vast majority of the characters in that section.


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## LineageCold (May 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> They were meshing chakra's so that Naruto/Minato's chakra could be connected for the FTG, so in a sense they exchanged chakra's so each could do their part. It is a fact that he didn't use any attacks with considerable DC up until the moment he and Naruto used their Kurama forms together.



Exactly, but my point still stands, he didn't give minito a power boost like what you were suggesting.




> KCM Minato is essentially a faster Base Minato. The thing is Minato has to be an edo for any form of kyuubi to work.,* he can't handle it while alive *So that gives him an added benefit of being an edo.



When was this stated ? 



*Spoiler*: __ 



also, iirc, bm Naruto slapping these BB away gave him double digit megatons

. 

If so, bm minato(or what you guys call it) can be easily scaled to it.

Nvm, I think it was Gyuk slapping gonbi, but Bm minito is easily scalable.


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> He's not holding a candle to anyone in the top-tier range, what are you smoking?
> 
> You have the likes of Tailed Beast Naruto, Sage Hashirama, and Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Madara in that range. Kabuto would casually be obliterated by all three.
> 
> My point is, Sage Kabuto shouldn't be on  the top-tier list to begin with. He's shown nothing even remotely close to the vast majority of the characters in that section.



He summons Manda and a shitload of snakes in order to distract his enemy. From there he can freaking meld with the earth or doton, and attack you with the environment constantly. Hagueki is pretty hax and would work on pretty much anyone along with Tayuya's jutsu. He has so much utility it isn't even funny, and then there is killing him... suigetsu himself took a freaking Bjuudama to the face and still survived. Kabuto is a top class medic, who has Karin's vitality, and Nature enhancements on every aspect of his arsenal. 

Of course those characters would beat him but he would give them a slight match. A. I put him on the bottom of the tier indicating his position in relevance to the others. B. Tiers encompass each characters general threat in combat in regards to other characters in the manga. Kabuto w/ out ET can comfortably beat most people under top tier with some exceptions. So I think he deserves to atleast round it off.


LineageCold said:


> Exactly, but my point still stands, he didn't give minito a power boost like what you were suggesting.


My point still stands that until he meshed with Naruto he never used that type of DC even if the situation called for it. Referring to his crazy named jutsu to make an opening for Sasuke and Tobirama (which it is implied he could pull off prior to being a jin)




> When was this stated ?


Minato'safter sealing only about half of the kyuubi inside himself. Highlighting is incompatibility with the Fox's overwhelming chakra. Naruto had Uzumaki blood and was Indra's incarnation so he was set to receive the other half. But unless he is dead I don't see how he would be able to effectively use it. It would be less battle practical than his already impracticable Sennin Mode.




> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
Yeah BM Naruto/BM Naruto are both incredibly strong. But the half stage of BM is KCM, the mode which Naruto had up until the feat you just showed, which allowed him trmemndoues chakra reserves, speed, techniques but wasn't as deadly as BM's pure AOE/ ability.

KCM Minato isn't top tier, until he forms his Bjuu shroud and can utilize the huge Bjuubomb Rasengan.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

Kabuto has plenty of hax and lots of variety but he only hits gigatons with Manda 2 and which isn't really on the top tier cut off line (imo) of Bijuu 1-8


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Kabuto has plenty of hax and lots of variety but he only hits gigatons with Manda 2 and which isn't really on the top tier cut off line (imo) of Bijuu 1-8



Sandaime a really strong High Tier in his own right was able to battle the Hachibi (notably the second strongest Bjuu ) for an extended period and seal him. But even MS Sauce was about to OHKO Hachibi with Amaterasu. Like I said earlier Suigetsu tanked a bjuu bomb, Kisame soloed Son Goku with Roshi (it is cannon fact that a Bjuu alone is < a Bjuu with good Jinchuriki). Tobi mind raped a perfect Jin, Kakuzu manhandled the 2 tailed cat,etc. There are a decent portion of High Tiers that can take out Bjuu. Genjutsu + Poison, or mind sealing tag might be able to do the trick.  If gambunta temporarily held down Kyuubi than Manda 2 should be able to be a great distraction vs him or any other bjuu as well.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> He summons Manda and a shitload of snakes in order to distract his enemy. From there he can freaking meld with the earth or doton, and *attack you with the environment constantly*



Yes, such a perfect strategy considering Manda will be tearing up that exact same landscape just trying to get to the enemy, who would likely be jumping up and and about to evade.

And the bolded technique is weak as fuck. What exactly did it accomplish again? Piercing Itachi's frail body?

Anyone worth a shit in durability could probably shrug that off.



> Hagueki is pretty hax and *would work on pretty much anyone* along with Tayuya's jutsu.



No, it wouldn't. The vibrations caused by White Dragon Rage has only been effective on the Uchiha brothers, who themselves aren't at all impressive when it comes to physical strength and resilience.'

Throw that against a Sage Mode user or a Tailed Beast and you'd be lucky to even see them squirm from its effects.



> He has so much utility it isn't even funny



This is the exact same argument people employ when trying to argue that Jiraiya is superior to Itachi, or what not.

Versatility doesn't mean two fucks if your entire arsenal consists of low-grade techniques that don't matter in the slightest against mountain-busting, or city-busting characters with similar durability.



> and then there is killing him... *suigetsu himself took a freaking Bjuudama to the face and still survived*.



Except he didn't. The *mere travelling force* of the Tailed Beast Bomb blew right through Suigetsu's lake form - the actual explosion detonated behind Taka.



> Kabuto is a top class medic, who has Karin's vitality, and Nature enhancements on every aspect of his arsenal.



Cool.

He also got his horn sliced off by fucking Itachi.

Something tells me he isn't surviving something that vaporizes his head. Heck, has Kabuto even shown liquidation of his own head? 



> Of course those characters would beat him *but he would give them a slight match*



And this is supposed to _help_ your case? 

I don't put characters who would give other characters a 'slight match' in the same tier. That makes no sense; you essentially conceded that Kabuto is far below them.



> Kabuto w/ out ET can comfortably beat most people under top tier* with some exceptions*. So I think he deserves to atleast round it off.



Yeah, like Edo Tensei Itachi, Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto - heck, Sage Naruto would have a decent chance at beating him.

The fact that he already has opponents he'd likely lose to means he should be in their tier. Not in an entirely separate one where he doesn't belong at all.

Even if he could 'comfortably' beat most fighters under top tier, the gap between high and top tier is absolutely fucking enormous. And Sage Kabuto veers way more towards high-tier than whatever nonsense you're suggesting.


----------



## DarkTorrent (May 26, 2014)

> But even MS Sauce was about to OHKO Hachibi with Amaterasu.



That was a kawarimi



> Like I said earlier Suigetsu tanked a bjuu bomb



a Biju bullet

and he needed a lot of water to do that



> Kisame soloed Son Goku with Roshi
> Kakuzu manhandled the 2 tailed cat, etc



only a perfect jin can utilize the full power of his Biju

those weren't perfect jins



> mind sealing tag



the tag is for edos



> Sandaime a really strong High Tier in his own right was able to battle the Hachibi (notably the second strongest Bjuu ) for an extended period and seal him



which is why some consider him a top tier

and he is also > SM Kabuto without edos


----------



## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Yes, such a perfect strategy considering Manda will be tearing up that exact same landscape just trying to get to the enemy, who would likely be jumping up and and about to evade.



He can use it in other ways to aid in defense/capture, etc. He can literally take any physical thing and give it life, he just so happened to use the stalagmites which were stopped by Susano, and only let up due to ama. Kabuto can use it in other ways he sees fit. Hell Kitsuchi was able to completely change the trajectory of the Juubi with a well timed doton.




> Anyone worth a shit in durability could probably shrug that off.


Cool story but see above it isn't all about huge blast. I don't know any character besides BM Naruto (who was introduced solely as a mega power up to counter the Bjuubombs) who at the start of the fight brought out there biggest guns this includes Nagato, Edo Madara, bLoodlusted Ei, etc. there is usually an engagement period used to feel the other person out unless one characters is bloodlusted or in the middle of an objective. 




> No, it wouldn't. The vibrations caused by White Dragon Rage has only been effective on the Uchiha brothers, who themselves aren't at all impressive when it comes to physical strength and resilience.'
> 
> Throw that against a Sage Mode user or a Tailed Beast and you'd be lucky to even see them squirm from its effects.


-CS Juugo (who's KKG is basically sage mode) is 
-Similarly KCM Naruto relied on Sensing to block this attack, meaning it affected his sight. None of those jutsu were sage enhanced, and only had 1 out 2 effects that Hagueki has. Sasuke couldn't even hold up his susano, it is very possible Itachi only could because he was an edo. 




> Except he didn't. The *mere travelling force* of the Tailed Beast Bomb blew right through Suigetsu's lake form - the actual explosion detonated behind Taka.


Proof? He is right in front of Bee before the Bjuudama comes out and is seen near vaporized, inferring he was hit with a significant portion of the blast.





> Cool.
> 
> He also got his horn sliced off by fucking Itachi.



Cool. I gaurantee Sasuke's sword would hurt SM Naruto as well. Hell SM Jiraiya got his arm gut off by the not legendary Asura path.

Also Kabuto has Suigetsu's durability sage enhanced so he can take a shit ton of damage ontop of his healing factor he should be just under Tsunade level healing. If tobi's war mask tanked a TBB Rasengan I don't think KCM Naruto has much to phase Kabuto unless repeated over and over again.


And this is supposed to _help_ your case? 

I don't put characters who would give other characters a 'slight match' in the same tier. That makes no sense; you essentially conceded that Kabuto is far below them.

Kabuto would be able to give a fight/possibly beat Nagato who likewise is low on the top tier scale, so that is my reasoning.



DarkTorrent said:


> That was a kawarimi


No it wasn't, it was the real Hachibi. The Kawamari came into play when Hachibi was thrashing about and endangered Karin. Sasuke cut his tentacle allowing him to use that to escape. But amaterasu posed a signifigant threat to him.



> a Biju bullet
> 
> and he needed a lot of water to do that


My point was Suigetsu isn't even Kage level.




> only a perfect jin can utilize the full power of his Biju
> 
> those weren't perfect jins


Mizukage was a perfect Jin, Roshi I believe was hyped as a formidable Jinchuriki combat wise, Yuugito was also half decent. And besides the feats still exist against Bjuu.






> which is why some consider him a top tier
> 
> and he is also > SM Kabuto without edos


I suppose he would be better fitted in the high high tier.


----------



## LineageCold (May 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> .
> 
> My point still stands that until he meshed with Naruto he never used that type of DC even if the situation called for it. Referring to his crazy named jutsu to make an opening for Sasuke and Tobirama (which it is implied he could pull off prior to being a jin)



What? Naruto did not give minito a power boost (he did not have a chakra shord)& also minito can go full bijuu release with the help of dark kyuubi.




Also, he can form a Bb with the help of his dark kyuubi.(Naruto conversation panel)



At this point, ur nitpicking & assuming stuff.






> Minato'safter sealing only about half of the kyuubi inside himself. Highlighting is incompatibility with the Fox's overwhelming chakra. Naruto had Uzumaki blood and was Indra's incarnation so he was set to receive the other half. But unless he is dead I don't see how he would be able to effectively use it. It would be less battle practical than his already impracticable Sennin Mode.



That actually doesn't prove or state he couldn't handle it.(it was just a lot of stress on his body after absorbing Half of the kyuubi chakra + using the death god technique) 

Ur assuming he couldn't of handle it.





> Yeah BM Naruto/BM Naruto are both incredibly strong. But the half stage of BM is KCM, the mode which Naruto had up until the feat you just showed, which allowed him trmemndoues chakra reserves, speed, techniques but wasn't as deadly as BM's pure AOE/ ability.
> 
> KCM Minato isn't top tier, until he forms his Bjuu shroud and can utilize the huge Bjuubomb Rasengan.



I'll say it again, minito is using the same form as Naruto, they just have "Different designs".



"They just have different art/transformation designs." Other than that, there the same.

Just to make it clearer, Minito can access up to his Bm mode (or whatever you call it) on his own. But he can't fully release his Bijuu mecha by himself. He needed the help of dark kyuubi to aid him. For example, look at minito eyes.


*Spoiler*: __ 




[By himself]

[Now with the aid of dark kyuubi, he can access full Bijuu mecha]

The same thing applies with Naruto






Naruto aided with kurama, can access full bijuu mecha state.




Same with minito.



(Minato & dark kyuubi conversation)


----------



## Dr. White (May 26, 2014)

I see I concede that point. My main point was that Minato restricted to KCM skills is high tier.


----------



## LineageCold (May 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I see I concede that point. My main point was that Minato restricted to *KCM skills is high tier*.



Fair enough, but "IMO" I see him as low top tier/max high tier.


----------



## Lurko (May 26, 2014)

One piece probably has the best high tiers.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> One piece probably has the best high tiers.



Really? How many of them have gigaton feats like Nagato, Kabuto, and Sandaime Raikage do?


----------



## Lurko (May 26, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Really? How many of them have gigaton feats like Nagato, Kabuto, and Sandaime Raikage do?



I don't consider Kabuto and Raikage hightiers and Nagato is only one character.


----------



## DarkTorrent (May 26, 2014)

@Musubi

you forgot Deidara



Dr. White said:


> No it wasn't, it was the real Hachibi. The Kawamari came into play when Hachibi was thrashing about and endangered Karin. Sasuke cut his tentacle allowing him to use that to escape. But amaterasu posed a signifigant threat to him.



um... we saw the hachibi that was burnt by Amaterasu later turn into a tentacle

and the most likely reason why they did that was not because they found Amaterasu threataning, but to fake their own death and escape  from Kumo



> My point was Suigetsu isn't even Kage level.



and he barely handled the weakest attack from the hachibi, it's even weaker than his hachimaki if my memory isn't failing me

so I'm not seeing how that says anything about the Hachibi's power



> Mizukage was a perfect Jin, Roshi I believe was hyped as a formidable Jinchuriki combat wise, Yuugito was also half decent. And besides the feats still exist against Bjuu.



yes, Mizukage was one

the others weren't, they were never able to manifest the full power of their Biju

the versions the most of Alatsuki faced were even weaker than KN6


----------



## Byrd (May 26, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Really? How many of them have gigaton feats like Nagato, Kabuto, and Sandaime Raikage do?



> OP guys are faster and have hax to boot


----------



## LineageCold (May 27, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Really? How many of them have gigaton feats like Nagato, Kabuto, and Sandaime Raikage do?



I'll tweek it a bit for you 

Onoki
Muu 
Diedara
Nagato
The Third E
Kabuto/w Manda V2

I'm probably missing somebody.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 27, 2014)

Byrd said:


> > OP guys are faster and have hax to boot



That doesn't mean they're getting through the Sandaime's durability for instance. Also that doesn't stop someone like Nagato from lifting his arm on time, blasting them back with ST, and then throwing a CT for the kill

I left Deidara out because he takes a short bit of prep time. There's also Mu and Onoki to take account for if we're going to mention gigaton Iwa ninja


----------



## Byrd (May 27, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> That doesn't mean they're getting through the Sandaime's durability for instance. Also that doesn't stop someone like Nagato from lifting his arm on time, blasting them back with ST, and then throwing a CT for the kill
> 
> I left Deidara out because he takes a short bit of prep time. There's also Mu and Onoki to take account for if we're going to mention gigaton Iwa ninja



> speaks of durability 

> Hax



One Piece High tiers hax includes Logia properties, being turn to stone, spacial manipulation, BFR, being controlled by a string, pre-cog, and a lot of other shit


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 27, 2014)

Byrd said:


> > speaks of durability
> 
> > Hax



What hax stops them from getting stabbed with a Bijuu piercing finger before they use it?


----------



## Byrd (May 27, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> What hax stops them from getting stabbed with a Bijuu piercing finger before they use it?



they are faster


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 27, 2014)

They still die, all he has to do is make his arm move up a bit as they come at him


----------



## Byrd (May 27, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> They still die, all he has to do is make his arm move up a bit as they come at him



 

you really are talking out your ass huh


----------



## LineageCold (May 27, 2014)

Byrd said:


> they are faster



Most of the hax user you listed are not scaled to doffy strings.

And going by the FRS calc, The third is scalable to the Mach 300+ (which would make him equal speed with doffy tier speedster.)


----------



## Kyu (May 27, 2014)

_Naruto high tiers:
_
Nagato
SM Kabuto
Base Minato
Healthy Itachi
Killer Bee
Tobirama
Sandaime Raikage 
Mu
Onoki
Deidara
Other less powerful ^ (use bro) I'm forgetting.

Looking at the improvements Narutoverse has made to their high tier roster, seeing a toss up between them & OP.


----------



## Byrd (May 27, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> Most of the hax user you listed are not scaled to doffy strings.
> 
> And going by the FRS calc, The third is scalable to the Mach 300+ (which would make him equal speed with doffy tier speedster.)



Kuma, Law are for sure but the rest are all MHS according to Luffy dodging feat back in EL


----------



## LineageCold (May 27, 2014)

Kyu said:


> _Naruto high tiers:
> _
> Nagato
> SM Kabuto
> ...



I hope that list is not in order of power 



Byrd said:


> *Kuma, Law are* for sure but the rest are all MHS according to Luffy dodging feat back in EL



True enough.


----------



## Dr. White (May 27, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> um... we saw the hachibi that was burnt by Amaterasu later turn into a tentacle
> 
> and the most likely reason why they did that was not because they found Amaterasu threataning, but to fake their own death and escape  from Kumo


-No Bee got hit by amaterasu as he was about to solo young Taka. Sasuke pulled amaterasu out of his hat on the fly, and burned the shit out of Bee. Wile be was thrashing he endangered Karin, and sasuke cut off apart of him. He used that as a free ride to substitute, and escape once he reached the bottom of the lake or whatever and the masquerade was over. But it was clear he got hit and was in extreme pain. He was down to kill them before ultimately being forced to retreat.



> and he barely handled the weakest attack from the hachibi, it's even weaker than his hachimaki if my memory isn't failing me


Ok, so sometimes even a jonin level ninja can deal with bjuu level attacks. 



> so I'm not seeing how that says anything about the Hachibi's power


The Hachibi is the second strongest Bjuu. His blast was very powerful lol for you to sit here and deny the power of it is ridiculous. 





> the others weren't, they were never able to manifest the full power of their Biju
> 
> the versions the most of Akatsuki faced were even weaker than KN6


-

yugito herself was a, she could also transform into her  something Naruto couldn't accomplish forever. Granted Kyuubi > Niko Bjuu but still she was very skilled in her Bjuu handling.

So idk where you got that from.


----------



## Kyu (May 27, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> I hope that list is not in order of power



First 2-3 are. Actually Minato & Itachi would be interchangeable so just the first two.

After those I stopped giving a shit and listed down what came to mind.


----------



## DarkTorrent (May 27, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -No Bee got hit by amaterasu as he was about to solo young Taka. Sasuke pulled amaterasu out of his hat on the fly, and burned the shit out of Bee. Wile be was thrashing he endangered Karin, and sasuke cut off apart of him. He used that as a free ride to substitute, and escape once he reached the bottom of the lake or whatever and the masquerade was over. But it was clear he got hit and was in extreme pain. He was down to kill them before ultimately being forced to retreat.



the tentacle Sasuke cut off was already the actual Bee and hachibi

they can't just substitute themselves while burning with a tentacle, transform that tentacle into a burning Hachibi replica and themseleves into a non-burning tentacle and do that without being noticed by anyone, especially a sharingan user

if he really wanted to kill them he would have transformed back and fired an actual bijudama at them, or did that at the very beginning in the first place

he merely used them to escape from kumo to go and learn enka



> Ok, so sometimes even a jonin level ninja can deal with bjuu level attacks.



when that Biju isn't serious, yes

some can even handle an attack from a serious Biju, like Kakashi



> The Hachibi is the second strongest Bjuu. His blast was very powerful lol for you to sit here and deny the power of it is ridiculous.



the Hachibi is as strong as the others, that was made obvious during his battle against the other Biju

and I'm not saying his Biju bullet is weak(it's still in megatons), I'm saying it's weaker than the hachimaki and nowhere as impressive as Hachibi's actual Bijudamas



> -
> 
> yugito herself was a, she could also transform into her  something Naruto couldn't accomplish forever. Granted Kyuubi > Niko Bjuu but still she was very skilled in her Bjuu handling.
> 
> So idk where you got that from.



what part of only the perfect jinchuriikis can *manifest the full power* of the Biju aren't you getting?

Yugito wasn't one, she could manifest some of it (as could Gaara) but that was nowhere near as strong as the Niibi's full power

we saw Nibi's full power, if Yugito used it back then, then Kumo would had one less mountain... or two


----------



## LazyWaka (May 27, 2014)

> GOD TIER:
> 
> Upper:
> Kaguya
> ...



I still hold to my list here. 



Dr. White said:


> -No Bee got hit by amaterasu as he was about to solo young Taka. Sasuke pulled amaterasu out of his hat on the fly, *and burned the shit out of Bee*. Wile be was thrashing he endangered Karin, and sasuke cut off apart of him. He used that as a free ride to substitute, and escape once he reached the bottom of the lake or whatever and the masquerade was over. But it was clear he got hit and was in extreme pain. He was down to kill them before ultimately being forced to retreat.



Just going to point out it didn't burn shit. Hachibi retains the damage done in Bijuu form and he didn't have a single singe mark on him when we saw him chatting with bee not long later.



Dr. White said:


> The Hachibi is the second strongest Bjuu. His blast was very powerful lol for you to sit here and deny the power of it is ridiculous.



Bijuu 1-8 are all equal. Naruto's battle against them showed that much.



Dr. White said:


> yugito herself was a, she could also transform into her  something Naruto couldn't accomplish forever. Granted Kyuubi > Niko Bjuu but still she was very skilled in her Bjuu handling.



Just going to point out. Based on her showings against RM Naruto and Bee she should have technically been able to beat Hidan and Kakuzu without needing to transform at all. Her loss against them just wreaks of PIS at this point.


----------



## DarkTorrent (May 27, 2014)

what did she show so impressive while untransformed no less during that battle for you to say this, Waka? 

as far as I remember, the only reason they were any effective against Bee and RM Naruto while untransformed was because of number advantage, rinnegan and sharingan


----------



## LazyWaka (May 27, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> what did she show so impressive while untransformed no less during that battle for you to say this, Waka?
> 
> as far as I remember, the only reason they were any effective against Bee and RM Naruto while untransformed was because of number advantage, rinnegan and sharingan



Being as fast and as strong as Killer Bee, who could physically overpower the Raikage in base and dance around team taka like no bodies business.


----------



## DarkTorrent (May 27, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Being as fast and as strong as Killer Bee, who could physically overpower the Raikage in base and dance around team taka like no bodies business.



what feat makes her as strong as Killer Bee in base? 

and it's more likely that she can react and catch off guard base Killer Bee, while having a shraingan pre-cog and shared vision with 5 other people than that she is as fast as him

and even if she was as strong as Bee physically, that is still not enough to harm Kakuzu with Iron skin


----------



## LazyWaka (May 27, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> what feat makes her as strong as Killer Bee in base?



Physically matching him in a clash.



DarkTorrent said:


> and it's more likely that she can react and catch off guard base Killer Bee, while having a shraingan pre-cog and shared vision with 5 other people than that she is as fast as him



She was keeping pace with him. Sharingan/shared vision cant do that.



DarkTorrent said:


> and even if she was as strong as Bee physically, that is still not enough to harm Kakuzu with Iron skin



Perhaps base was a bit of an exaggeration (forgot she doesn't have Raiton.)


----------



## Darth Niggatron (May 27, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> *Naruto's Tier list:*
> *God Tier*
> Kaguya
> Rikudo sennin
> ...



BM Naruto>>>EMS Sauce.


----------



## DarkTorrent (May 27, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> She was keeping pace with him. Sharingan/shared vision cant do that.



well, if she did that only means that Kakuzu and Hidan are that fast too 

at least in reaction

and honestly, I don't really remember that bit

was it a little CQC skirmish or her just dropping an attack on him then high tailing out (they did that a lot during that battle)?

oh and I also remember something about Bee being surprised how well she is doing, and hachibi saying that it's because of the eyes



> Perhaps base was a bit of an exaggeration (forgot she doesn't have Raiton.)



come now Waka

 I know that the zombie duo were shatted on by Kishi (by the board and their love for Sauce in this case actually) but they weren't that weak


----------



## LazyWaka (May 27, 2014)

She was able to quickly chase him down. No matter how you slice it, she's as fast/faster than him.

the only thing the eyes do is improve their timing.


----------



## DarkTorrent (May 27, 2014)

she was in 1 tailed state there


----------



## LazyWaka (May 27, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> she was in 1 tailed state there



So was Bee, so it kinda neutralizes it.


----------



## Vicotex (May 27, 2014)

v2 bee will be in that tier


----------



## LazyWaka (May 27, 2014)

Regular Bee is high tier.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (May 27, 2014)

I'm going with OP, I think ... Not if Gremmy is High Tier on Bleach .


----------



## LazyWaka (May 27, 2014)

Gremmy and Kenpachi are likely top tiers (at the very least pushing bottom of the barrel top tiers anyway.)


----------



## ShadowReaper (May 27, 2014)

One Piece
Naruto
Bleach

But Naruto's top tiers are considerably stronger than OP's or Bleach. Some like current Naruto can even solo the verse as it stands now.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 27, 2014)

One Piece has the overall speed advantage, while Naruto is stronger DC-wise by a good amount. If it was all high tiers vs all high tiers, OP wins (though they'd only take certain enemies due to gangbang and hax), but if it's the strongest high tiers vs the strongest high tiers, Naruto wins.


----------



## Lurko (May 27, 2014)

Yeah Op has the number advantage.


----------



## Vicotex (May 27, 2014)

Numbers dont lie


----------



## B Rabbit (May 27, 2014)

They could!


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 27, 2014)

They've lied to me before


----------



## LineageCold (May 27, 2014)

Mostly everything we've been taught/in doctrine in this world is a lie, from nationality, religion, down to educational system . Although, it is much easier to live ,obey & go along on what we've been taught. At least then you wouldn't be labeled a social outcast/lunatic.


You'd be surprise to know the tons of lies the nations of this earth has concealed from the public masses.






*Spoiler*: __ 














Maybe I'm joking, maybe I'm not


----------



## Dr. White (May 28, 2014)

I see Law being a HUGE problem himself to the Naruto tiers. Say we only took the top 15 high tiers in each verse, I think Law could beat alot of Naruto high tiers.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (May 28, 2014)

Funny thing is that if you stop for a second and think about it, OP has Law, Zoro, Sanji, Luffy, Doflamingo, Hancock, Magellan, Don Chinjao, Pica, Kuma and Moria as High Tiers . Damn !


----------



## Darth Niggatron (May 28, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Funny thing is that if you stop for a second and think about it, OP has Law, Zoro, Sanji, Luffy, Doflamingo, Hancock, Magellan, Don Chinjao, Pica, Kuma and Moria as High Tiers . Damn !


Yes, and Naruto has Onoki, Muu, Kisame, Deidara, SM Naruto, Gaara, RM Naruto, 7th Gate Gai, Itachi, Minato, Tobirama, and most importantly, Hiruzen as high tiers.

Virtually all of them are city level+.


----------



## Dellinger (May 28, 2014)

All of them are city level but they are also glass cannons.


----------



## TheMostReasonableDebater6 (May 28, 2014)

Wouldn't base Hashirama technically be high tier?


----------



## LazyWaka (May 28, 2014)

TheMostReasonableDebater6 said:


> Wouldn't base Hashirama technically be high tier?



Base Hashirama is a top tier. He was able to stop a slash from EMS Madara's Susano'o.


----------



## Iwandesu (May 28, 2014)

]





White Hawk said:


> All of them are city level but they are also glass cannons.


Sm nardo, RM nardo, itachi with susanno,  transformed kisame,  7th gate gai. Are all city-city level + at both. 
Muu, Deidara and oonoki having island + dc and garra having island-High city+ durability sand, Also helps.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 28, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> He can use it in other ways to aid in defense/capture, etc. He can literally take any physical thing and give it life, he just so happened to use the stalagmites which were stopped by Susano,



That's great.

It's just that stalagmites wouldn't bother anyone with any remote capability of defense or durability. Itachi, as well we all know, is a glass cannon.

So yeah, I'm not impressed by that technique.



> Hell Kitsuchi was able to completely change the trajectory of the Juubi with a well timed doton.



I hope you can prove Kabuto can even use it on the same scale! As far as we've seen, he can't.

Nor will powerscaling apply in this scenario as they're two completely different techniques.



> Cool story but see above it isn't all about huge blast blah blah blah some crap about big guns or whatnot



And this is relevant to what you quoted... how? 



> -CS Juugo (who's KKG is basically sage mode) is
> -Similarly KCM Naruto relied on Sensing to block this attack, meaning it affected his sight. None of those jutsu were sage enhanced, and only had 1 out 2 effects that Hagueki has. Sasuke couldn't even hold up his susano, it is very possible Itachi only could because he was an edo.


 
I'm not arguing that Sage Mode users or Jinchuriki wouldn't be affected by the blinding light that White Dragon Rage comes with - rather, the _vibrations_ that it causes, which is the *primary* reason Sasuke and Itachi became so vulnerable following their exposure to the technique, hasn't demonstrated to be nearly powerful enough to affect _vastly_ physically superior characters on the level of Sage Mode users and/or Jinchuriki.

From what we've seen, Sage Naruto/Jiraiya would be blinded, but the vibrations wouldn't even tickle them and their sensing capabilities would allow them to _easily_ detect Kabuto should he approach for a final blow.



> Proof? *He is right in front of Bee before the Bjuudama comes out* and is seen near vaporized, inferring he was hit with a significant portion of the blast.



Exactly.  Suigetsu was struck with the blast, but the enormous detonated sphere exploded behind him and the collective of Taka.

How else would you explain Sasuke, Karin, and Jugo surviving? The bomb blew right past Suigetsu, past the rest of his team, and wrecked havoc a distance ahead of them.

In any case, that version of Tailed Beast Bomb was *fundamentally different *from a regular one (as it was shaped like a wave, not a projectile), not to mention a lot smaller (its diameter was calculated to be only around 3 kilometers whereas later iterations fired by Tailed Beasts 2-7 covered near *8* comparatively). 



> Cool. I gaurantee Sasuke's sword would hurt SM Naruto as well.Hell SM Jiraiya got his arm gut off by the not legendary Asura path.



This doesn't disprove anything I said. Every single person in the 'top-tier' range you placed alongside Kabuto have techniques that completely and utterly disregard the latter's shitty durability.

Hashirama, Madara, Sasuke, Naruto, Nagato. Every single one of them have firepower that would obliterate Kabuto to smithereens, so trying to propose that his 'vitality, medic skills, and Karin's enhancements' have any sort of relevance in these type of match-ups would be far better suited towards debates in which Kabuto is hypothetically fighting high or mid-tiers, who have considerably lower-grade destructive capacity.



> Also Kabuto has Suigetsu's durability sage enhanced so he can take a shit ton of damage ontop of his healing factor



Do you think this matters to anyone in the top-tier range? 



> he should be just under Tsunade level healing. If tobi's war mask tanked a TBB Rasengan I don't think KCM Naruto has much to phase Kabuto unless repeated over and over again.



If a fucking sword could cut through Kabuto's horn clean without losing momentum, I don't have to tell you what kind of damage a Wind Style: Rasenshuriken would inflict, no?



> Kabuto would be able to give a fight/possibly beat Nagato who likewise is low on the top tier scale, so that is my reasoning.



Nagato uses his maximum-power Shinra Tensei.

Good game.



> I suppose he would be better fitted in the high high tier.



Glad you conceded.


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