# Isshiki Otsotsuki vs JJ Madara



## Zembie (Oct 12, 2020)

Battlefield: Who the fuck cares
Knowledge: None
Stips: Isshiki doesn't have a time-limit, this is JJ Madara with 2 Rinnegan.
Restrictions: IT​


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## Ludi (Oct 12, 2020)

Isshiki sends him to another dimension and calls it a day

Reactions: Like 2


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## Raiken (Oct 12, 2020)

I honestly don't know.

I'd probably give this to Isshiki more times than not... but it's a really hard one this.

Current Isshiki - Madara Outlasts through forcing him to burn through all his Chakra.

Fully Revived Isshiki - Isshiki Extreme Diffs


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## Perfect Susano (Oct 12, 2020)

Isshiki needs more feats. He can't perceive Limbo, therefore he's never going to touch Madara to BFR him or whatever the common argument is for him winning.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 12, 2020)

Perfect Susano said:


> Isshiki needs more feats. He can't perceive Limbo, therefore he's never going to touch Madara to BFR him or whatever the common argument is for him winning.



Madara also cannot see Isshiki's shrunken attacks nor shrunken Isshiki since only the sharingan was confirmed to do so. Not the Rinnegan.

So he will never touch him.

Anyway, Isshiki can fly like Juubi Jins, RSM Naruto and Kaguya which implies he got Six Path Senjutsu or the equivalent of such.

Either way I do not see how Madara can win here. All of his ninjutsu is either shrunken or absorbed. In taijutsu he loses badly. Unless Isshiki really cannot perceive Limbo (and there will never be any way to 100% prove whether he can or cannot since it won't be used again) and Madara uses it right away with Isshiki just standing still and letting it pummel him then I do not see how he loses tbh.


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## dergeist (Oct 12, 2020)

The same Isshiti who got fodderstomped by pre-fruit Kaguya, vs Hogaromo + headed towards post fruit Kaguya in power, before he got his other rinnegan back + Rinne Sharingan


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## BlueMeteor (Oct 12, 2020)

The one who didn’t get killed by zetsu

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Oct 12, 2020)

Hmm the one who get penetrated and bent over by Kaguya's shit vs the one who lost to Kaguya 
I wonder who comes out on top
Thoughts my fellow ninjas
@Kagutsutchi
@Altiora Night
@Sufex
@Ludi
@Mar55
@MarF
@Alita
@redboy776 


My sons I really can't decide who wins please help me out:
@dergeist
@Animegoin

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ludi (Oct 12, 2020)

King789 said:


> Hmm the one who get penetrated and bent over by Kaguya's shit vs the one who lost to Kaguya
> I wonder who comes out on top
> Thoughts my fellow ninjas
> @Kagutsutchi
> ...


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## dergeist (Oct 12, 2020)

King789 said:


> Hmm the one who get penetrated and bent over by Kaguya's shit vs the one who lost to Kaguya
> I wonder who comes out on top
> Thoughts my fellow ninjas
> @Kagutsutchi
> ...



Well my son, the answer is simple, one need not ponder over it so much.

One got negged by pre-fruit Kaguya (her weakest form), and stomped adult fate bros, therefore the Adults are foddeers compared to their younger selves.

One got defeated by deus ex machina, ot nerf and Asspullromo coming out of his anus to hand out magic power ups, even then they weren't enough to beat him. In the end deus ex machina came in to save the day.


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## Animegoin (Oct 12, 2020)

King789 said:


> My sons I really can't decide who wins please help me out:
> @dergeist
> @Animegoin



I sonned you, don’t play yourself.


OT: Madara neg diffs


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## Android (Oct 12, 2020)

Not sure why you restricted IT? Assuming Ishiki isn't immune to it in the first place, he can't just teleport into another space pocket while the light wards off.

And Ishiki fucks up Madara by the way, infinitely better physical stats+far far more haxxed Ninjutsu. Madara stands no chance.

No chance.

Reactions: Like 3


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## T-Bag (Oct 12, 2020)

wtf is ishitty gonna do? Madara got the most perfect doujutsu in the narutoverse, with the largest chakra tank available.


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## Soldierofficial (Oct 12, 2020)

Isshiki is by far the strongest character we ever seen, Madara cannot compete with him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## T-Bag (Oct 12, 2020)

Soldierofficial said:


> *Isshiki is by far the strongest character we ever seen*, Madara cannot compete with him.


what is this based on?


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## Soldierofficial (Oct 12, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> what is this based on?



He being Kaguya's superior and his feats against Naruto and Sasuke.

Reactions: Like 3


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## T-Bag (Oct 12, 2020)

Soldierofficial said:


> He being Kaguya's superior and his feats against Naruto and Sasuke.


Kaguya's superior? are we gonna literally just gonna make things up now?

Last I remember, pre fruit kaguya split him in half and left him for dead.


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## Turrin (Oct 12, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> Kaguya's superior? are we gonna literally just gonna make things up now?
> 
> Last I remember, pre fruit kaguya split him in half and left him for dead.


She ambushed him; that clearly doesn’t count. He has vastly superior feats so far

Reactions: Like 3


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## MarF (Oct 12, 2020)

King789 said:


> I wonder who comes out on top
> Thoughts my fellow ninjas


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## T-Bag (Oct 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> She ambushed him; that clearly doesn’t count. He has vastly superior feats so far


Narratively it doesn't make ANY sense. She'd a god-like character, literally. She couldnt be beat without the power of the sage of six paths that was temporarily handed to naruto and sasuke for that specific battle.

Kaguya had to fight like a turn based rpg villain because she was that powerful.


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## Turrin (Oct 12, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> Narratively it doesn't make ANY sense. She'd a god-like character, literally. She couldnt be beat without the power of the sage of six paths that was temporarily handed to naruto and sasuke for that specific battle.
> 
> Kaguya had to fight like a turn based rpg villain because she was that powerful.


What do you mean it doesn’t make sense. Kaguya can be God Like and Ishiki can still be stronger there are stronger Gods then others

Reactions: Like 2


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## Soldierofficial (Oct 12, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> Kaguya's superior? are we gonna literally just gonna make things up now?
> 
> Last I remember, pre fruit kaguya split him in half and left him for dead.



No, that's a fact, Isshiki was Kaguya's boss in the same way that Momoshiki was Kinshiki's boss, he was just taken off guard, and his feats are better.

Reactions: Like 4


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## T-Bag (Oct 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> What do you mean it doesn’t make sense. Kaguya can be God Like and Ishiki can still be stronger there are stronger Gods then others


except isshiki isn't a god like figure comparative to Hagoromo much less kaguya. He doesn't have that narrative going for him, at least not yet.


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## Raiken (Oct 12, 2020)

Soldierofficial said:


> No, that's a fact, Isshiki was Kaguya's boss in the same way that Momoshiki was Kinshiki's boss, he was just taken off guard, and his feats are better.


That's not really been confirmed though has it. You're just assuming their relationship is the same as Momo & Kinshiki's.

Isshiki is stronger than pre-fruit Kaguya.... sure. Post-Fruit Kaguya, I doubt it.


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## Turrin (Oct 12, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> except isshiki isn't a god like figure comparative to Hagoromo much less kaguya. He doesn't have that narrative going for him, at least not yet.


He is though 

Beat Naruto and Sasuke easier then Kaguya whose > Hagaromo and has an even more powerful Dojutsu. That’s all it takes


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## Soldierofficial (Oct 12, 2020)

Cryorex said:


> That's not really been confirmed though has it. You're just assuming their relationship is the same as Momo & Kinshiki's.



The murals in Isshiki's dimension already showed us that Isshiki was Kaguya's superior just like Momoshiki was > Kinshiki, he is the one who later would have eaten Kaguya to evolve.



> Post-Fruit Kaguya, I doubt it.



Isshiki is visibly better in most areas, he is physically much more powerful, his hax is much better, and he can easily counter anything in Kaguya's arsenal, him being weaker than Prime Kaguya doesn't make sense even from a feats perspective.

Reactions: Like 5


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## T-Bag (Oct 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> He is though
> 
> Beat Naruto and Sasuke easier then Kaguya whose > Hagaromo and has an even more powerful Dojutsu. That’s all it takes


different author writing the story so the mechanics of battle are different in boruto creating a false perception. Either way, Sasuke and naruto also had the help of obito, kakashi, sakura, and sage of the six paths. They all played a vital role in her defeat.

Not comparable in the slightest.


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## Raiken (Oct 12, 2020)

The fact that...

*Post IT-Chakra Kaguya > Post-Shinju/Juubi Absorption Kaguya > Post-Chakra Fruit Kaguya > Isshiki >> V2 Jigen*

You can deduct that... 

Kaguya w/ Shinju Absorbed & IT Chakra(Who fought Teen Naruto & Sasuke)
>
Kaguya w/ Shinju/Juubi Absorbed(Who fought Hagaromo & Hamura)
>
Post-Fruit Kaguya ~ Teen Naruto & Sasuke Together w/ the Seals Instant Win Mechanic ~ Prime Juudara
>
Isshiki ~ DRG Shinju-Juudara ~ Teen Naruto & Sasuke Together w/o the Seals Instant Win Mechanic
>
1RG Shinju-Juudara
>
V2 Karma Jigen(Who fought Adult Naruto & Sasuke) ~ 1RG Juudara
>
Adult Naruto & Sasuke Together
>
Juubito ~ Fused Momoshiki
>
Adult Naruto
>
Initial Juubito ~ Adult Sasuke ~ DRSM Madara


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## Sage King (Oct 12, 2020)

Asspulldara with ease. Limbo alone puts him above anyone in Boruto


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## LawdyLawd (Oct 12, 2020)

8th gate rivals RSM strength and Isshiki is vastly stronger than that and other stats as well. He’s gonna beat the shit out of Madara. Limbo isn’t too much of a problem, everything else gets shrunk. 

BFR+coffin seal(him and his limbos) if nothing else


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## Turrin (Oct 12, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> different author writing the story so the mechanics of battle are different in boruto creating a false perception. Either way, Sasuke and naruto also had the help of obito, kakashi, sakura, and sage of the six paths. They all played a vital role in her defeat.
> 
> Not comparable in the slightest.


How are the mechanics different exactly?

Yes and that’s why Momoshiki and Ishiki also require Naruto / Sasuke to have outside help to beat too, despite them being stronger then in the WA,


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## Trojan (Oct 12, 2020)

Isshiki curbfodderstomps

Isshiki > Jigen > Naruto & Sasuke > Naruto > Sasuke > madara

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mar55 (Oct 12, 2020)

Isshiki will just blitz and BFR him.

Reactions: Like 2


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## T-Bag (Oct 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How are the mechanics different exactly?
> 
> Yes and that’s why Momoshiki and Ishiki also require Naruto / Sasuke to have outside help to beat too, despite them being stronger then in the WA,


There’s nothing that indicates they’re stronger than in the war arc, in fact weaker. What new abilities have they shown? What progress have they made? In Naruto’s fight with Shin (if im not mistaken?) kurama told naruto he is dull compared to his war self which contradicts what you’re saying. Naruto was in constant battle keeping his claws sharp back in the days- unlike his adult counterpart due to peace/stagnation. Peace makes you weak, to quote shin.

Or to quote bane “peace has cost you your strength, victory has defeated you.”


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## Mar55 (Oct 12, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> There’s nothing that indicates they’re stronger than in the war arc,


The Last. 


T-Bag said:


> What new abilities have they shown?


Lmao??? Sasuke being able to travel between dimensions much?

I mean, come on, I know Madara is the "new" Itachi but you aren't even trying.

Reactions: Like 2


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## T-Bag (Oct 12, 2020)

Mar55 said:


> The Last.
> 
> Lmao??? Sasuke being able to travel between dimensions much?
> 
> I mean, come on, I know Madara is the "new" Itachi but you aren't even trying.


What else? And they fight like a bunch of bitches compared to their old selves


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## Mar55 (Oct 12, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> What else?


They don't need anything else, just that much proves you wrong. 


T-Bag said:


> And they fight like a bunch of bitches compared to their old selves


A personal opinion that holds no relevance, take it up with the author and Illustrator of Boruto.

Reactions: Like 3


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## T-Bag (Oct 12, 2020)

Mar55 said:


> They don't need anything else, just that much proves you wrong.
> 
> A personal opinion that holds no relevance, take it up with the author and Illustrator of Boruto.


And I already proved to you they’re weaker (duller as per kuramas admission) compared to their old selves, despite the bs argument u just brought lol. Trying to win this argument on a insignificant technicality is quite silly of you. But then again you are boruto fan.


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## Android (Oct 12, 2020)

Cryorex said:


> Juubito ~ Fused Momoshiki
> >
> Adult Naruto


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## Alita (Oct 12, 2020)

Isshiki destroys him. But I expect the usual madara wankers to do what they always do and drag this thread out for numerous unneccessary pages.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mar55 (Oct 12, 2020)

Hellraiser said:


>


Just horrible takes all over this fandom.


T-Bag said:


> But then again you are boruto fan.


Assumptions are bad. I hate Boruto and everything it's done with Naruto's (rather incomplete) lore.

But because I understand power scaling I must be a Boruto fan. Great logic there.


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## T-Bag (Oct 12, 2020)

Mar55 said:


> But because I understand power scaling I must be a Boruto fan.


But you dont lol. Anyone that doesnt understand the story narrative is automatically a boruto fan to me. It’s one of my algorithms I set up.




Alita said:


> Isshiki destroys him. But I expect the usual madara wankers to do what they always do and drag this thread out for numerous unneccessary pages.



Destroys him with what? Madara is immortal with 4 limbos surrounding him on top of that, hello? Wtf is he going to destroy madara with...? See you cant just say shit like that and then call people wankers when they call u out on the bs


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## KamuiKye (Oct 12, 2020)

Isshiki stomps him

Reactions: Like 4


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## Sage King (Oct 12, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> But you dont lol. Anyone that doesnt understand the story narrative is automatically a boruto fan to me. It’s one of my algorithms I set up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My man, why waste your time.
I mean Hokage Naruto and Sasuke are stronger than teens without feats.
I mean, whenever you bring up facts. They call you a wanker.
Last>>War arc Naruto with feats
Hokage Naruto>>Last without feats.
( Beside this Naruto(Hokage) being the weakest of them all)
I mean he can't sense
Can't use a thousand bunshin
Knocked out by a bijuu dama
Harassed by Delta a foe weaker than Boro lol.
But no people ignore that and try to fetch feats from the younger versions of Naruto just to make him stronger.
And the embarrassing thing is that they call Hokage Naruto his prime version besides all waste feats coming from him.
It's not like Hokage Naruto hasn't fought and people are scaling him to see the level he is at.
They can all stay in denial but whether they like it or not Hokage Naruto is weak, was portrayed such and will die as such lol.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 13, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> What else? And they fight like a bunch of bitches compared to their old selves



Just like part 1 Sasuke fought like a bitch against Itachi despite looking much more impressive against Gaara.

Hell...he looked like a weakling against Sakon too when compared to his Gaara fight.

Guess he got weaker since then?

Madara as a Juubi Jin also looked quite weak against 8th Gate Guy. Wasn't that just a mere human sans Six Path chakra even? Why hadn't Madara casually dodged his blows and broke his neck? Maybe he got weaker since his clash against Minato?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Oct 13, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> There’s nothing that indicates they’re stronger than in the war arc, in fact weaker. What new abilities have they shown? What progress have they made? In Naruto’s fight with Shin (if im not mistaken?) kurama told naruto he is dull compared to his war self which contradicts what you’re saying. Naruto was in constant battle keeping his claws sharp back in the days- unlike his adult counterpart due to peace/stagnation. Peace makes you weak, to quote shin.
> 
> Or to quote bane “peace has cost you your strength, victory has defeated you.”


Sasuke specifically has gotten better with Rinnegan and Naruto got 50% Kyuubi amp. Those are two big things.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Onyx Emperor (Oct 13, 2020)

The length of this fight actually varies from 1 second to 10 seconds depends on if Isshiki can affect something as strong as anti-ninjutsu truth seeker orb with his shrink.
If he cannot, Madara will just blitz him and decapitate with truth seeking staff.
If he can, Madara will get surprised, think about what happened for some time, then blitz Isshiki with bare hand.


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## MYGod000 (Oct 13, 2020)

Madara Casually Stomps Him.  

It take isshiki time to Shrink  normal size Objects...Don't see him shrinking a CT.

 Boruto anime and Manga has consistently Proven to people you don't even need to be god tier to make Otsutsuki Members Struggle or Pressure them.  Moreover, Shin Even showed you don't need to be God tier to Make Naruto or Sasuke Struggle.


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## Sufex (Oct 13, 2020)

@Soldierofficial  spitting facts ITT

Isshiki stomps
Narrativley and feat wise. Ninja is so haxed and his stats are retarded

Sorry team jubi jins 


@King789  this what you wanted huh

Reactions: Like 3


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## Tsukuyomi (Oct 13, 2020)

Sufex said:


> @Soldierofficial  spitting facts ITT
> 
> Isshiki stomps
> Narrativley and feat wise. Ninja is so haxed and his stats are retarded
> ...


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## blk (Oct 13, 2020)

Isshiki curbfodderstomps this loser 

Doesn't even need to touch him to BFR him into space or whatever dimension, as he did in canon as his first move btw.

Shrinking shits on everything Madara can throw at him and Isshiki's stats are so much higher that he can legitimately blitz him and tear him apart with sheer speed and strength.

Sorry guys Madara is old news


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 13, 2020)

Its very clear the guy who was oneshotting Rikudo avatars ragdolls Madara

Dude has worse strength and speed feats than even WA Naruto let alone post war, and Isshiki was embarrassing post war



Zembie said:


> Isshiki doesn't have a time-limit


His canon time limit is like 2-3 days anyway

It wouldnt come up no matter who he was fighting

Jigens the one with the 30 second fuse


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## My Honor (Oct 13, 2020)

Madara wins because he comes from a far superior manga.


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## LawdyLawd (Oct 13, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Madara Casually Stomps Him.
> 
> It take isshiki time to Shrink  normal size Objects...Don't see him shrinking a CT.
> 
> Boruto anime and Manga has consistently Proven to people you don't even need to be god tier to make Otsutsuki Members Struggle or Pressure them.  Moreover, Shin Even showed you don't need to be God tier to Make Naruto or Sasuke Struggle.



he doesn’t need to shrink CT, don’t forget he can use portals in battle. Madara is not touching Isshiki lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## T-Bag (Oct 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke specifically has gotten better with Rinnegan and Naruto got 50% Kyuubi amp. Those are two big things.


hardly with sasuke. what, he learned how to run away from an asswhooping? wow. So much stronger yeah...

 And the 50% kyuubi was never said to make him stronger. Unless you're implying naruto is twice as strong?
Even if that's the case, I explained earlier they're dumbed down (kurama's words) they're simply not in practice.



blk said:


> Isshiki curbfodderstomps this loser
> 
> Doesn't even need to touch him to BFR him into space or whatever dimension, as he did in canon as his first move btw.
> 
> ...


BFR is not going to work. The limbo's intercept (he can't see them), and he has the rinnei sharingan- S/T is inevitable let's be honest.

and roundhouse kicks aren't gonna tear madara apart. He's immortal and can regenerate. you're confusing him for those 2 bums who get their ass kicked easy.


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## MYGod000 (Oct 13, 2020)

321ice said:


> he doesn’t need to shrink CT, don’t forget he can use portals in battle. Madara is not touching Isshiki lol.




Okay, so in your scenario Isshiki is running right to dodge CT via Portal.  Madara's Rinne-Sharingan can use S/T, Also after Madara Revealed Rinne-sharingan his Limbo clones also had Rinne-Sharingan.


While Isshiki is Opening a Portal to Leave Limbo Hit him with Light Fang. The Member above Pointed out that  Isshiki has no way to Physical beat Madara who is immortal.


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## Danisor (Oct 13, 2020)

So far every "stronger than Madara" enemy has been established as something with a lot of chakra only, but there is nothing notable about their intellect or skills or jutsu arsenal.

Jigen did beat Naruto and Sasuke with a relative comfort, but I'm still not convinced that means anything meaningful to Madara.. after all, Kaguya pulled a fast one on Isshiki and she got destroyed by Naruto/Sasuke.


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## Rai (Oct 13, 2020)

Isshiki.

He can basically teleport black rods into Madara-s Rinnegan thus destroying them so no more Limbo or any Rinnegan tech (other than Preta path), BFR him into another dimension or just go inside of Madara's body through his ear then control him like he did with Jigen.

His other jutsu get absorbed, shrinked or teleported.

Reactions: Like 2


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## uchihakil (Oct 14, 2020)

Madara pimp slaps and blitz stomp isshiki and his fodder techniques, a weaker madara tanked 8 gates assault, survived a kick that warped space, lol at isshiki having superior taijutsu when madara be taking kicks that bent space and came out alive. 

Limbo shit diffs as usual.


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## uchihakil (Oct 14, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Madara also cannot see Isshiki's shrunken attacks nor shrunken Isshiki since only the sharingan was confirmed to do so. Not the Rinnegan.
> 
> So he will never touch him.
> 
> ...



The rinnegan has shown the ability to see at a microscopic level bruh, and yea isshiki can't see/sense limbo because his sensing aint great enough to even detect boruto's chakra after he henge'd into sasuke's sword, he also was not able to sense kawaki, his sensing does not have feats on RSM level, so unless he is shown to have rikudou senjutsu, he can NOT sense limbo, seeing it is out of the quuestion cuz he does not posses the rinnegan.


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## Mar55 (Oct 14, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> and he has the rinnei sharingan- S/T is inevitable let's be honest.


Lmao, that you seriously argue Madara can use he's never shown and isn't even stated capable of is pathetic.

Reactions: Like 3


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## uchihakil (Oct 14, 2020)

Mar55 said:


> Lmao, that you seriously argue Madara can use he's never shown and isn't even stated capable of is pathetic.



I will want to have a serious civilised debate on issiki vs madara if anybody is interested. In this particular matchup madara is nerfed so isshiki stans can make arguments like.... "Madara can't see shrunk down isshiki cuz only sharingan can", IT is automatically disqualified cuz isshiki has zero counters... Lol, and "madara can't use s/t ability".

I can debunk all said points basing my arguments with statements/feats/scaling from the naruto manga. Madara does NOT need the rinnesharingan to beat isshiki, madara is a hard counter to isshiki.

A character not using a jutsu is not proof he can't use it. Lemme ask a question, do you think;
> DMS obito can use PS??
> Can 6 gates lee use morning peacock??
 > Can BSM naruto use frog kata???
> can shisui use fire ball jutsu

Etc etc

If your answer is no they can't use said techniques then i don't need to argue with you and if yes, it means you aknowledge the fact that characters can use certain jutsu's (that are within their capabilities even if they didn't use it on panel which is the case here), then ypu'll have to prove why madara can't use s/t portal, and i have reasons backing up my claim with the manga itself.


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## Mar55 (Oct 14, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> I want


Oh, let me stop you there.


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## uchihakil (Oct 14, 2020)

Mar55 said:


> Oh, let me stop you there.



Welp soredeyi, madara still pimp slaps.


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## Mapel (Oct 14, 2020)

This is basically Madara vs a faster 8 gates Gai without timelimit + hax

Isshiki blitzes and oneshots



uchihakil said:


> IT is automatically disqualified cuz isshiki has zero counters



You mean besides just leaving the dimension?


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## uchihakil (Oct 14, 2020)

Mapel said:


> This is basically Madara vs a faster 8 gates Gai without timelimit + hax
> 
> Isshiki blitzes and oneshots
> 
> ...



IT can be used in one on one, the moon is only used so as to trap the whole planet, but its something yall already know, have no counters against and keep bringing that shit up in every single issiki/naruto/anybody without resistance vs madara thread


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## Mapel (Oct 14, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> IT can be used in one on one, the moon is only used so as to trap the whole planet, but its something yall already know, have no counters against and keep bringing that shit up in every single issiki/naruto/anybody without resistance vs madara thread


What headcanon is this?
Explain why Madara and Kaguya didn't just use it like that against the fate bros

Reactions: Like 2


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## uchihakil (Oct 14, 2020)

Mapel said:


> What headcanon is this?
> Explain why Madara and Kaguya didn't just use it like that against the fate bros



IT was already casted and sasuke blocked it with susano + rinnegan 

As soon as madara dropped infront of team 7he was taken out, he didn't use a single jutsu after casting IT on the planet, 

Kaguya already used that shit without the moon

*smh*


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## Arles Celes (Oct 14, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> The rinnegan has shown the ability to see at a microscopic level bruh, and yea isshiki can't see/sense limbo because his sensing aint great enough to even detect boruto's chakra after he henge'd into sasuke's sword, he also was not able to sense kawaki, his sensing does not have feats on RSM level, so unless he is shown to have rikudou senjutsu, he can NOT sense limbo, seeing it is out of the quuestion cuz he does not posses the rinnegan.



Only Sasuke's Sharingan could pull that off though which was thanks to its kinetic vision specifically. And even then once Jigen did go V2 Sasuke was unable to react to the speed of his attacks despite having both the sharingan and the rinnegan activated. The same Sasuke who pressured Juubi Madara.

And Isshiki most likely got RSM since he can fly just like Kaguya and RSM Naruto do. So he can sense no worse than RSM Naruto. He could sense Koji's frog which even Naruto failed to notice.

Plus we do not yet know the true extent of the power that his unknown dojutsu grants him.


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## Animegoin (Oct 14, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> The same Sasuke who pressured Juubi Madara.


Sasuke didn’t pressure shit, he Ameno’d Madara twice and achieved a plot point bisection on a stationary Madara. That same Sasuke mysteriously couldn’t continue to “pressure” Madara after he retrieved his second eye; and let’s not forget that obtaining that eye had been his goal since he became the Juubi’s Jin.



> And Isshiki most likely got RSM since he can fly just like Kaguya and RSM Naruto do. So he can sense no worse than RSM Naruto. He could sense Koji's frog which even Naruto failed to notice.


Wtf kind of logic is that? Dude couldn’t even sense that Sasuke was in his Juubi’s dimension, nor any of the multiple kicks he received as Jigen. Dude couldn’t even sense out Kawaki’s chakra nor did he know that Naruto was no longer sealed and was casually existing in Konoha. Dude has no advanced sensory, and he especially doesn’t have RSM. 




> Plus we do not yet know the true extent of the power that his unknown dojutsu grants him.


We’re going off of what we know currently, which is that Isshiki’s doujutsu does fuck all to Madara


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> hardly with sasuke. what, he learned how to run away from an asswhooping? wow. So much stronger yeah...
> 
> And the 50% kyuubi was never said to make him stronger. Unless you're implying naruto is twice as strong?
> Even if that's the case, I explained earlier they're dumbed down (kurama's words) they're simply not in practice.
> ...


Why would you need a direct statement. explaining that gaining far more chakra (50% Kyuubi) and better skill with Rinnegan made these two stronger; that’s an absurd burden of proof your applying here.

Reactions: Like 3


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## MYGod000 (Oct 14, 2020)

Mapel said:


> What headcanon is this?
> Explain why Madara and Kaguya didn't just use it like that against the fate bros




Before all of that explain why Adult Sasuke Hasn't used Genjutsu in boruto against villains with no counter to it?


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## Arles Celes (Oct 14, 2020)

Animegoin said:


> Sasuke didn’t pressure shit, he Ameno’d Madara twice and achieved a plot point bisection on a stationary Madara. That same Sasuke mysteriously couldn’t continue to “pressure” Madara after he retrieved his second eye; and let’s not forget that obtaining that eye had been his goal since he became the Juubi’s Jin.



Sasuke had not used neither Ameno nor Shunshin on Madara when the latter got his 2nd eye. He was busy dealing with the meteors and later with protecting his team from MT.

Once the fight could resume Madara was trolled by BZ before Sasuke or Naruto could attack him.

Btw...no proof that Madara after getting his 2nd Rinnegan got faster.



Animegoin said:


> Wtf kind of logic is that? Dude couldn’t even sense that Sasuke was in his Juubi’s dimension, nor any of the multiple kicks he received as Jigen. Dude couldn’t even sense out Kawaki’s chakra nor did he know that Naruto was no longer sealed and was casually existing in Konoha. Dude has no advanced sensory, and he especially doesn’t have RSM.



Even in the original manga sensors like Minato failed to notice what was happening to his son. Kurama said he needs to enter sensor mode meaning sensors are not always gifted with passive sensing unless they activate their sensing. Karin herself needed to activate her sensing to find Danzou. She was unable to just notice him like that.

Guess Jigen (and maybe Isshiki) also needs to activate his sensing powers first.

His feats regarding sensing in Boruto are not worse than Naruto's though.



Animegoin said:


> We’re going off of what we know currently, which is that Isshiki’s doujutsu does fuck all to Madara



Well, we know that Madara had neither displayed speed nor strength on V2 Jigen's level...much less on Isshiki's level.

You might argue that Madara uses Limbo right away and Isshiki's new dojutsu cannot see him nor can Isshiki sense him (and it can somehow kill Isshiki in one shot) but I do not see how Madara can dodge super fast black stakes that are coming at his eyes (and the rest of his body) followed by a trip to Jigenland followed by being sealed in a pot for good measure.

For now Madara does not have feats that he can deal with Jigen's PS busting strength nor speed capable of dodging RSM Kurama's tails while distracted. Much less with the stronger Isshiki.


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## T-Bag (Oct 14, 2020)

Mar55 said:


> Lmao, that you seriously argue Madara can use he's never shown and isn't even stated capable of is pathetic.




_"A character not using a jutsu is not proof he can't use it. Lemme ask a question, do you think;
> DMS obito can use PS??
> Can 6 gates lee use morning peacock??
 > Can BSM naruto use frog kata???
> can shisui use fire ball jutsu

Etc etc

If your answer is no they can't use said techniques then i don't need to argue with you and if yes, it means you aknowledge the fact that characters can use certain jutsu's (that are within their capabilities even if they didn't use it on panel which is the case here), then ypu'll have to prove why madara can't use s/t portal, and i have reasons backing up my claim with the manga itself. -* UchihaKill
*_
I couldn't have said it better myself.
_


Arles Celes said:



			Only Sasuke's Sharingan could pull that off though which was thanks to its kinetic vision specifically.
		
Click to expand...

_
But Madara has the sharingan who's also able to use kinetic vision. lol



Turrin said:


> Why would you need a direct statement. explaining that gaining far more chakra (50% Kyuubi) and better skill with Rinnegan made these two stronger; that’s an absurd burden of proof your applying here.


because shonen manga such as naruto has a trend of making direct statements when the author wants to make a point, especially regarding power ups. For example, Madara with 1 rinnegan and 2x. Or obito with 1 eye and 2 eyes.

That same emphasis just hasn't been present between 50% kyuubi and100% kyuubi. Nor was naruto with 50% kyuubi said to be in any way weaker than the full kyuubi over the course of the manga.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 14, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> But Madara has the sharingan who's also able to use kinetic vision. lol



It did not help Sasuke against Jigen V2 and above (Isshiki).

Plus can Juubi Madara turn his eyes back into a Sharingan? And even if he could he would lose Rinnegan powers in the meantime. Sasuke can use both powers due to having two different dojutsus in each eyesocket. We never saw Madara doing that.


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## T-Bag (Oct 14, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> It did not help Sasuke against Jigen V2 and above (Isshiki).
> 
> Plus can Juubi Madara turn his eyes back into a Sharingan? And even if he could he would lose Rinnegan powers in the meantime. Sasuke can use both powers due to having two different dojutsus in each eyesocket. We never saw Madara doing that.


Madara doesn't need to switch between Rinnegan/Sharingan (if that's even possible considering he's the host of the juubi), his rinnegan is the sharingan, he doesn't lose his sharingan attributes hence how he's able to see clones with rinnegan, an ability that stemmed from his sharingan. Just as you don't lose the sharingan abilities with MS/EMS

Sasuke still has the sharingan on one eye for fanservice reasons lol, not because his rinnegan isn't capable of kinetic vision. Kishimoto doesn't want to lose the classic 'aesthetics' that comes with the sharingan or else it just wouldnt be naruto anymore.


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> _"A character not using a jutsu is not proof he can't use it. Lemme ask a question, do you think;
> > DMS obito can use PS??
> > Can 6 gates lee use morning peacock??
> > Can BSM naruto use frog kata???
> ...


Yeah still an absurd standard your holding when it’s obvious these things are improvements


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## uchihakil (Oct 14, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Only Sasuke's Sharingan could pull that off though which was thanks to its kinetic vision specifically. And even then once Jigen did go V2 Sasuke was unable to react to the speed of his attacks despite having both the sharingan and the rinnegan activated. The same Sasuke who pressured Juubi Madara.
> 
> And Isshiki most likely got RSM since he can fly just like Kaguya and RSM Naruto do. So he can sense no worse than RSM Naruto. He could sense Koji's frog which even Naruto failed to notice.
> 
> Plus we do not yet know the true extent of the power that his unknown dojutsu grants him.



Shaking my motherfucking head, why not give everyone that could fly Rikudou senjutsu then, go ahead and give momoshiki, kinshiki, muu and ohnoki RSM because they can fly. Naruto has been finished 6fucking years ago and yall still don't know the requirement for Rikudou senjutsu???


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## Animegoin (Oct 14, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Sasuke had not used neither Ameno nor Shunshin on Madara when the latter got his 2nd eye. He was busy dealing with the meteors and later with protecting his team from MT.
> 
> Once the fight could resume Madara was trolled by BZ before Sasuke or Naruto could attack him.
> 
> Btw...no proof that Madara after getting his 2nd Rinnegan got faster.


Shunshin or not, Sasuke’s only feat on JJ Madara that wasn’t Ameno was a plot point.

And I wasn’t claiming that Madara did faster after obtaining his 2nd Rinnegan (because he certaintly didn’t), I was showing you how Sasuke failed to pressure both versions of JJ Madara.


> Even in the original manga sensors like Minato failed to notice what was happening to his son. Kurama said he needs to enter sensor mode meaning sensors are not always gifted with passive sensing unless they activate their sensing. Karin herself needed to activate her sensing to find Danzou. She was unable to just notice him like that.
> 
> Guess Jigen (and maybe Isshiki) also needs to activate his sensing powers first.
> 
> His feats regarding sensing in Boruto are not worse than Naruto's though.



Idk which Minato anti-feat you’re referring to but in your other examples you’re attempting to equate non-Rikudou level sensors (Isshiki) to a RSM sensor (Teen RSM Naruto).

You are correct about Isshiki’s sensing being no worse than Adult RSM Naruto’s, I’ve always maintained that current Naruto isn’t in his true RSM form. Therefore nothing implies that current Naruto can sense Madara’s Limbos either





> Well, we know that Madara had neither displayed speed nor strength on V2 Jigen's level...much less on Isshiki's level.
> 
> You might argue that Madara uses Limbo right away and Isshiki's new dojutsu cannot see him nor can Isshiki sense him (and it can somehow kill Isshiki in one shot) but I do not see how Madara can dodge super fast black stakes that are coming at his eyes (and the rest of his body) followed by a trip to Jigenland followed by being sealed in a pot for good measure.
> 
> For now Madara does not have feats that he can deal with Jigen's PS busting strength nor speed capable of dodging RSM Kurama's tails while distracted. Much less with the stronger Isshiki.


Correct, he’s never CES’d as a JJin. Now if Naruto’s trivial bijuu chakra allowed him to give Kaguya trouble, imagine what a Juubi (small planet worth of chakra) boost would do in similar contexts. In fact, I believe the databook said that Naruto’s boiling point chakra was around Lee’s strength? Idk I remember reading a DB excerpt of something like that but if that’s true then yeah, any JJin would shit on that output.

If CES’d Isshiki stands no chance, but a Limbo could also just snap his neck from the very beginning, neg diff GG, micro-rods are negged by one of the other Limbos deflecting them or we unnerf Madara to use Shinra Tensei. Isshiki certaintly isn’t teleporting Madara before his entire arm his removed and kicked across the battlefield, refer to Edo SM Minato’s rasengan attempt.

Well distracted Madara already negged True RSM Naruto’s attempted sneak attack using Limbo. Now if I were to flip the script, I would say that Isshiki hasn’t even proven that his body is resilient enough to take a Lava FRS since he resorted to absorbing and shrinking Naruto’s basic rasengan. Naruto’s durability is far less impressive than JJ Madara’s so regardless of if we allow Madara to take damage (which he won’t) it just ends up being shaken off lmao.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 14, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> Shaking my motherfucking head, why not give everyone that could fly Rikudou senjutsu then, go ahead and give momoshiki, kinshiki, muu and ohnoki RSM because they can fly. Naruto has been finished 6fucking years ago and yall still don't know the requirement for Rikudou senjutsu???



Huh? We know that Mu and Oonoki can fly by decreasing their weight.

What proof is there that Momo or Isshiki use said power? We never saw either use a doton.

And we know that the only ones that could fly in the original manga were users of RSM.

Its not just being given power by Hago since Madara got it too thanks to Juubi.

Is it so surprising that all O clan members of real worth that can threaten the fate bros got such power?

We even know that Isshiki and Momo can create Shinjus. Or do you believe only Juubi Jins and Kaguya can do so?


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## T-Bag (Oct 14, 2020)

And seriously people have to do some reflection when they claim Madara with Rinnei sharingan (literally referred to as the *perfect doujutsu*) can't perform S/T ninjutsu. EVERYONE in the manga who had Rinnegan with sharingan tomoe is capable of S/T jutsu:

1) urashiki
2) sasuke
3) kaguya

yet they want to conveniently dismiss Madara who didn't even get a chance to display much of the rinnei sharingan because it was being saved for the next major villain. We already seen Madara perform 2 of kaguya's jutsu which are both "kekkei mora" on top of having kaguya's IMMORTALITY via the shinjuu. Madara literally hosts kaguya akin to a bijuu. He is Kaguya's jinchuriki. So please don't give me that bs that he can't perform S/T ninjutsu. It literally goes against all evidence.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 14, 2020)

Animegoin said:


> Shunshin or not, Sasuke’s only feat on JJ Madara that wasn’t Ameno was a plot point.
> 
> And I wasn’t claiming that Madara did faster after obtaining his 2nd Rinnegan (because he certaintly didn’t), I was showing you how Sasuke failed to pressure both versions of JJ Madara.



Every time Sasuke used Ameno on Madara the latter got hurt. Stabbed with Kusanagi, stabbed with Chidori...

Every time Sasuke used Ameno on Jigen or Isshiki he failed to do any damage.

Even Kaguya had to use Amenominaka to dodge Sasuke's Ameno assisted attack.



Animegoin said:


> Idk which Minato anti-feat you’re referring to but in your other examples you’re attempting to equate non-Rikudou level sensors (Isshiki) to a RSM sensor (Teen RSM Naruto).
> 
> You are correct about Isshiki’s sensing being no worse than Adult RSM Naruto’s, I’ve always maintained that current Naruto isn’t in his true RSM form. Therefore nothing implies that current Naruto can sense Madara’s Limbos either



Sensing is rarely ever adressed in the Boruto manga. Hilariously Sasuke might be the best sensor nowadays since he can sense both Naruto and Boruto across dimensions. Perhaps it also helped him to find Momo and Kinshiki during their first meeting.

No mention in the story though that Naruto lost his sensing or RSM though.

IMO At best you can argue that sensing overall got nerfed in Boruto and not just RSM sensing but ALL sensing. Characters might now only rely on sheer reflexes to dodge stuff and nothing else (aside from maybe sharingan precog).

Either that or sensing is worthless when the sensor is not fast enough. Kinda like Lee could hit Sasuke in part 1. Despite Sasuke's eyes keeping up his body was unable to follow. Maybe its the same now...

Sensing never was meant to be Ultra Instinct anyway.




Animegoin said:


> Correct, he’s never CES’d as a JJin. Now if Naruto’s trivial bijuu chakra allowed him to give Kaguya trouble, imagine what a Juubi (small planet worth of chakra) boost would do in similar contexts. In fact, I believe the databook said that Naruto’s boiling point chakra was around Lee’s strength? Idk I remember reading a DB excerpt of something like that but if that’s true then yeah, any JJin would shit on that output.
> 
> If CES’d Isshiki stands no chance, but a Limbo could also just snap his neck from the very beginning, neg diff GG, micro-rods are negged by one of the other Limbos deflecting them or we unnerf Madara to use Shinra Tensei. Isshiki certaintly isn’t teleporting Madara before his entire arm his removed and kicked across the battlefield, refer to Edo SM Minato’s rasengan attempt.
> 
> Well distracted Madara already negged True RSM Naruto’s attempted sneak attack using Limbo. Now if I were to flip the script, I would say that Isshiki hasn’t even proven that his body is resilient enough to take a Lava FRS since he resorted to absorbing and shrinking Naruto’s basic rasengan. Naruto’s durability is far less impressive than JJ Madara’s so regardless of if we allow Madara to take damage (which he won’t) it just ends up being shaken off lmao.



Not so trivial given how BZ hyped it as a TON of chakra which Kaguya was really regretful to give up. It was 50% Kurama's chakra, plus his own chakra plus what he got from Hago. And he got 100% Kurama nowadays.

That said its unknown if more chakra would make CES stronger. CES as we know in Sakura's case relies on chakra control. And what Naruto used was Steam release. It could rely on chakra control or just chakra strength. And Naruto got Six Path chakra which is at the top unless other Otsutsuki got even stronger chakra.

Madara never snapped anyone's neck lol. And once Isshiki runs at him with full speed the Limbo is quite likely to miss its target then if we assume that Isshiki cannot see nor sense Limbo.

Micro rods are negged? Madara could be pierced by Sasuke's sword so the rods easily pierce his skin. Do you believe the 2nd Rinnegan made him more durable? Madara also got no speed nor reaction feats to show that he can react to black stakes coming out of the ground piercing his body followed by mini black stakes messing his eyes.

Jigen did not even need to touch RSM Naruto to teleport him to Jigenland. It can be done at a distance.

Madara got messed up rather bad by Naruto's Lava FRS so its hardly much to brag about. Isshiki using shrinking on Naruto's Rasengans is simply not underestimating his enemy. Plus why should he try tanking Naruto's attacks in the first place lol?

Madara also got cut by Sasuke's chidori sword and pierced by Obito's arm who was no longer a Juubi Jin. Hardly that much of a tank tbh...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mar55 (Oct 14, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> Madara who didn't even get a chance to display much of the rinnei sharingan


Exactly, so we don't know his prowess with it at all.

The problem with your argument is that the Rinnegan and Rinne Sharingan are different abilities, ignoring that and treating them as the same thing for a second: The Rinnegan always comes with personal abilities that some others can't use, same as the Sharingan's evolutions. 

Even in arguing he replicated some of Kaguya's Jutsu, he is still notably below simply because of the manner in which he did it. He couldn't cast planetary IT on his own, while Kaguya did so casually from her very own eyes.


There's also the nugget of how Kaguya's dimensions were specifically created by her and are only seen accessible with her Rinne-Sharigan, while the YH is an Otsutsuki technique. Hence why Sasuke still needed to train his Rinnegan for over a decade to finally acces Kaguya's dimensions, despite not even having dimensional travel to begin with. If you forgot, he also has a tomoe Rinnegan.

Your arguments really fall apart at the fact that he doesn't display these powers, so they cannot be granted to him in battle scenarios. As battle scenarios deal in facts and reasonable assumptions, it is not reasonable to that because they're the same evolution of eye that they share every single ability.

Otherwise all Rinnegan would be time skipping or whatever Urashiki does in the anime, or reflecting attacks with several times the strength, or having Sasuke's space manipulation, or using Limbo.


I'll never understand how you can claim to seriously believe Madara stomps in canon showings alone, but still have to argue he has abilities and feats he's never demonstrated and scales to power he's never replicated. It's like you're a Naruto villain, full of contradiction and unable to see it.


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## Mapel (Oct 14, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> IT was already casted and sasuke blocked it with susano + rinnegan
> 
> As soon as madara dropped infront of team 7he was taken out, he didn't use a single jutsu after casting IT on the planet,
> 
> ...


So Madara using I.T without the moon is nothing but headcanon.
Same as Madara having dimension jumping abilities

Isshiki blitz and oneshots


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## Animegoin (Oct 14, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Every time Sasuke used Ameno on Madara the latter got hurt. Stabbed with Kusanagi, stabbed with Chidori...
> 
> Every time Sasuke used Ameno on Jigen or Isshiki he failed to do any damage.
> 
> Even Kaguya had to use Amenominaka do dodge Sasuke's Ameno assisted attack.


Incorrect, Madara wasn’t hurt by either of those.

And don’t fool yourself into believing Sasuke used Ameno similarly against both opponents, that’s disingenuous. Jigen has complained about merely being swapped to a different location. If Sasuke utilized Ameno as he had against Madara, Jigen would’ve been offed long ago.



> Sensing is rarely ever adressed in the Boruto manga. Hilariously Sasuke might be the best sensor nowadays since he can sense both Naruto and Boruto across dimensions. Perhaps it also helped him to find Momo and Kinshiki during their first meeting.
> 
> No mention in the story though that Naruto lost his sensing or RSM though.
> 
> ...



Perhaps but either way, Isshiki’s got no answer for Limbo GG.



> Not so trivial given how BZ hyped it as a TON of chakra which Kaguya was really regretful to give up. It was 50% Kurama's chakra, plus his own chakra plus what he got from Hago. And he got 100% Kurama nowadays.
> 
> That said its unknown if more chakra would make CES stronger. CES as we know in Sakura's case relies on chakra control. And what Naruto used was Steam release. It could rely on chakra control or just chakra strength. And Naruto got Six Path chakra which is at the top unless other Otsutsuki got even stronger chakra.
> 
> ...



Incorrect, Naruto’s own chakra had long been used up in the war as Kurama conveyed at Vote 2; What Naruto had was tiny portions off 8 bijuu, 50% Kurama and RSM, which Sasuke conveyed at Vote 2. In the grand scheme of things, that’s fiercely inferior in terms of chakra volume. Remember Kaguya also wanted Sasuke’s chakra, who had WAYYY less than Naruto did, so that was an all around bad argument.

I don’t see why Juubi powered CES wouldn’t babyshake Isshiki.

Isshiki never shot rods in Sasuke’s eyes either, even when he had him pinned various times. So Madara having never snapped a neck is as valid as your attempted argument, no? Also no, nothing implies that Isshiki’s speed isn’t anything Madara or his 4 Limbos can’t react to.

Yeah let’s not act like the rods travel as fast as instant teleportion (Ameno) which is what Madara was tricked by. Jigen couldn’t even believe what had happened the first time he was innocently swapped lol. Anyway Naruto was able to destroy Jigen’s rods with his rasengan as they were microscopic and coming at him due to Sasuke informing him. So I’ll reiterate, Micro-rods are negged by Limbos, Shinra Tensei and his reaction speed certaintly is fast enough on its own to avoid being pinned. Take your pick

Yeah buddy, no where did I imply that Jigen/Isshiki had to touch anyone to teleport them. I merely pointed out that Jigen had to extend his arm toward the person he was going to teleport, as does Boruto and Kawaki. Neither Isshiki nor Jigen has warped anyone else without being within their personal space. Also no proof that Isshiki can teleport someone from a distance.

Well first off, Madara could’ve absorbed the lava FRS with Preta path, so let’s not act as if Madara wasn’t stuck by PIS his entire time as a JJin. Honestly I can argue that Isshiki is currently benefitting from the Fate bro’s PIS beyond what I had earlier but I won’t. Point is that Madara, while still healing, took a stronger rasengan than the one that killed Momoshiki is the point.

Madara got bisected by Sasuke and suffered no damage, while Jigen had to force rods out of neck to avoid beheading. Obito’s arm would’ve negged the Fate Bros too, as would Sasuke’s own chidori blade. Except non-JJins won’t escape with their life lmao


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## Sage King (Oct 14, 2020)

Naruto gets pierced by a sword.
Can't sense
Struggles against fodders like delta(weaker than Boro)
Gets knocked out by a bijuu dama in Six path Kurama avatar.
Can't use mass shadow clones.
Can't use tsbs.
But some people see this Naruto as the strongest version.
Do you guys think maybe I'm reading the wrong manga
Cuz as far as I know Ishikki defeated a Naruto who can't use the above mentioned abilities.
Juudara can as well as stomp this version of Naruto.


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## Animegoin (Oct 14, 2020)

Sage King said:


> Naruto gets pierced by a sword.
> Can't sense
> Struggles against fodders like delta(weaker than Boro)
> Gets knocked out by a bijuu dama in Six path Kurama avatar.
> ...



 
I love to see it


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## T-Bag (Oct 14, 2020)

Mar55 said:


> Exactly, so we don't know his prowess with it at all.
> 
> The problem with your argument is that the Rinnegan and Rinne Sharingan are different abilities, ignoring that and treating them as the same thing for a second: The Rinnegan always comes with personal abilities that some others can't use, same as the Sharingan's evolutions.
> 
> ...


What are you talking about when you say Kaguya did so casually with her own eyes? No she didn't. She used the moon, as the anime clearly displayed her reaching up in the sky ldentical to Madara. It obviously needed some sort of projection (the moon duh) for the genjutsu to hit such a large scale of people. Just because Kishimoto forgot there wasn't a moon before kaguya got sealed doesn't take away this fact lol. The whole kaguya/bz story is a mess with full of contradictions we know this. Madara was replicating what kaguya did with the Rinnei sharingan.
Now with that said, lest not forget that Madara and Kaguya are sharing the _same_ rinnei sharingan. The shinjuu (which posseses kaguya's rinnei sharingan) is the the same exact eye that Madara was using. And you can clearly see that as Kaguya is emerging from madara. Coupled with the fact Madara used IT, a unique and personal jutsu of kaguya's there is nothing to suggest he can't use Yomitsu Hirasaka. Again, they are not different eyes. It's literally the same one.

I don't see how you can compare Sasuke to Madara to make a point? Madara has a chakra tank of the entire planet, has the juubi/kaguya inside him, and a PERFECT doujutsu that far exceeds Sasuke's level. Madara is capable of kekkei mora which is far more advanced than kekkei genkai. So with these in mind, Madara doesn't need training. He didn't need training for Hashirama's ninjutsu, Senjutsu, controlling juubi, or using kaguya's abilities.

YH is not an ototsuki jutsu, but a jutsu of the rinnei sharingan. We see urashiki activate YH (or a similar jutsu) as soon as his eyes turn into a rinnei sharingan, which further supports what I been saying in fact.

The only argument you have is "He hasn't shown it, so" which is pretty dumb and lazy considering everything else we learned.


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## Sage King (Oct 14, 2020)

Animegoin said:


> I love to see it


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## Arles Celes (Oct 14, 2020)

Animegoin said:


> Incorrect, Madara wasn’t hurt by either of those.
> 
> And don’t fool yourself into believing Sasuke used Ameno similarly against both opponents, that’s disingenuous. Jigen has complained about merely being swapped to a different location. If Sasuke utilized Ameno as he had against Madara, Jigen would’ve been offed long ago.



His body was pierced by the sword so he clearly was hurt. He just regenerated. He is no super tank with an impenetrable body.

The key when using Ameno is having reflexes and body speed equal or superior to your opponent. Same with Hirashin.

Madara couldn't dodge Sasuke's Kusanagi when Sasuke swapped places with it nor could he dodge Sasuke's and Naruto's Ameno attack which forced him to swap places with a Limbo clone.

Isshiki as Jigen could dodge Kurama's tails coming at him at full speed while he had his back turned and was on his knees. That is an much of a disadvantage as Ameno can give to its opponent.

Isshiki is even faster.



Animegoin said:


> Incorrect, Naruto’s own chakra had long been used up in the war as Kurama conveyed at Vote 2; What Naruto had was tiny portions off 8 bijuu, 50% Kurama and RSM, which Sasuke conveyed at Vote 2. In the grand scheme of things, that’s fiercely inferior in terms of chakra volume. Remember Kaguya also wanted Sasuke’s chakra, who had WAYYY less than Naruto did, so that was an all around bad argument.
> 
> I don’t see why Juubi powered CES wouldn’t babyshake Isshiki.
> 
> ...



What?  Naruto was just tired after all the War effort. Plus it was confirmed that the other bijuus would stay with him. He got the other half of Kurama too. Momo even said how he got a crazy amount of chakra. The biggest in the whole world. Do you honestly believe he got less chakra post war?

Sasuke also got tons of chakra. He could use 9 CTs despite using PS so many times and despite fighting so many high level opponents. He got less chakra than Naruto but is mostly likely the 2nd most chakra heavy human around. Plus it was never confirmed that having more chakra makes one superior to the less chakra heavy guy. Otherwise part 1 Naruto would be above part 1 Kakashi.

Nothing Juubi powered by Madara did babyshake neither Naruto nor Sasuke. I see no reason why a guy stronger than Naruto or Sasuke would have trouble against anything Madara can use against him.

Jigen did not shot rods in Sasuke's eyes but he did in Koji's eyes. So its not OOC for him to do so. And Isshiki can use those rods too. If we assume that its OOC to use those rods on Sasuke's eyes then we might as well assume that its OOC for Madara to use Limbo against anyone who is not Naruto, Sasuke or a bijuu.

Rods travel fast enough that while Jigen is in V2 neither Naruto nor Sasuke could dodge them. Fast enough I'd say. Anyway while s/t is instant the attack that is used via it ISN'T. Otherwise Kaguya would never dodge Sasuke's Ameno assisted chidori nor would Madara react to Minato's Hirashin rasengan.

Either Lava release was too much for Preta, he cannot absorb Six Path Senjutsu chakra or for some reason its OOC for him to do so. If we go that route we might always argue "But if my fav did THIS or THAT then he might have won". I might argue that Jigen could have filled Base Naruto's head with rods after immoblizing him (and so killing him) but he did not. PIS? Perhaps but its how he fought.

Being bisected is clearly suffering tons of damage. It took him a while to regen from that. If he took no damage it woudn't even scratch him. Jigen took a kick from RSM Naruto while in Base and was not shown bleeding or having any scratches on his faces. Him preferring to avoid being hit by Sasuke's sword proves nothing given how Sasuke's sword can pierce both RSM Naruto's and Juubi Madara's skin.


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## dergeist (Oct 14, 2020)

Animegoin said:


> Incorrect, Madara wasn’t hurt by either of those.
> 
> And don’t fool yourself into believing Sasuke used Ameno similarly against both opponents, that’s disingenuous. Jigen has complained about merely being swapped to a different location. If Sasuke utilized Ameno as he had against Madara, Jigen would’ve been offed long ago.
> 
> ...



Another neg diff solo


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## Animegoin (Oct 14, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> His body was pierced by the sword so he clearly was hurt. He just regenerated. He is no super tank with an impenetrable body.
> 
> The key when using Ameno is having reflexes and body speed equal or superior to your opponent. Same with Hirashin.
> 
> ...


Stop lying to yourself lmfao, he was stabbed yet suffered literally no damage and showed no pain from any of Sasuke’s and/or Naruto’s attacks.

Considering I exposed your flawed view on the matter of the respective Ameno uses in Boruto and Naruto, I don’t feel as though I need to proceed.

Jigen/Isshiki wouldn’t have dodged a rod either if Sasuke had swapped himself with one, rather than trading places with Jigen. Neither would Jigen be able to dodge Naruto and Sasuke’s Six Paths binding attack. Kaguya avoided it with Ameno and as I proved before, Jigen and Isshiki can’t comprehend being repositioned by Ameno. Literally every time it happens, he says “Annoying Rinnegan”, and those swaps were used without intent to harm Isshiki. He’s benefitting from Fate Bro PIS and regardless of how much you lie to yourself, you aren’t changing the established facts.

Kurama’s tail =/= FTG, which a non-JJin Madara evaded with neg diff. Also your statement is pretty much a lie since Jigen was turned facing Sasuke, whom was  literally in front of Naruto’s humongous avatar lol.



> What?  Naruto was just tired after all the War effort. Plus it was confirmed that the other bijuus would stay with him. He got the other half of Kurama too. Momo even said how he got a crazy amount of chakra. The biggest in the whole world. Do you honestly believe he got less chakra post war?
> 
> Sasuke also got tons of chakra. He could use 9 CTs despite using PS so many times and despite fighting so many high level opponents. He got less chakra than Naruto but is mostly likely the 2nd most chakra heavy human around. Plus it was never confirmed that having more chakra makes one superior to the less chakra heavy guy. Otherwise part 1 Naruto would be above part 1 Kakashi.


Last time I’m addressing this since it’s off topic.
Stop saying “what” as if you don’t understand lmfao. Everything from JJ Madara onward was Naruto operating on borrowed bijuu chakra as I’ve proven with Kurama’s statements. Iirc Kurama had actually been gathering chakra for Naruto since, or maybe even before, the Juubi’s first transformation.

Gtfo you known damn well that Sasuke didn’t have tons of chakra lmfao, he erected PS literally three times (once against Madara, once against Kaguya, and once against Naruto). He had a resting period to build chakra when Kaguya isolated him and another within the idle time after they sealed Kaguya. But honestly nothing shows erecting PS more than once takes beyond EMS Madara reserves and you won’t find proof that it does. I’ll give him credit for the 9 CTs (even though if the bijuu had been attempting to resist, he would’ve had to use way more chakra).

Point is, their chakra combined doesn’t come close to a Juubi’s small planet worth of chakra, which JJins have and are said to be stronger than the creature itself. JJ’s CES probes Isshiki



> Nothing Juubi powered by Madara did babyshake neither Naruto nor Sasuke. I see no reason why a guy stronger than Naruto or Sasuke would have trouble against anything Madara can use against him.


On the contrary, Madara fought stronger and more intelligent Fate Bros than Isshiki is currently fighting, so likewise Isshiki wouldn’t be able to give WA Fate Bros trouble while Madara would neg the current variants. If JJ Madara had CES’d he flatten Isshiki. Isshiki’s hits couldn’t even greatly damage Kashin , dude had to drop a pillar on his arm just to get him down lmao

 



> Jigen did not shot rods in Sasuke's eyes but he did in Koji's eyes. So its not OOC for him to do so. And Isshiki can use those rods too. If we assume that its OOC to use those rods on Sasuke's eyes then we might as well assume that its OOC for Madara to use Limbo against anyone who is not Naruto, Sasuke or a bijuu.


Except it’s blatantly OOC for him to use rods on both Naruto and Sasuke’s eyes,  even the former’s kage bushin don’t suffer that fate so its OOC. Unfortunately for you though, your argument is fundamentally flawed since JJ Madara relied on Limbo for the latter part of the manga, it’s his moveset. Remember this all started because you were crying about how Madara’s Limbo could snap Isshiki’s neck neg diff, now you’re trying to restrict Limbo in its entirety

And like I said, Madara has counters for them anyway lmao.



> Rods travel fast enough that while Jigen is in V2 neither Naruto nor Sasuke could dodge them. Fast enough I'd say. Anyway while s/t is instant the attack that is used via it ISN'T. Otherwise Kaguya would never dodge Sasuke's Ameno assisted chidori nor would Madara react to Minato's Hirashin rasengan.


Headcanon, Sasuke was no longer calling them out to Naruto and was too busy getting ragdolled himself to care to look for them. Definitely not fast enough. The latter part of your statement made no sense in terms of relevance.



> Either Lava release was too much for Preta, he cannot absorb Six Path Senjutsu chakra or for some reason its OOC for him to do so. If we go that route we might always argue "But if my fav did THIS or THAT then he might have won". I might argue that Jigen could have filled Base Naruto's head with rods after immoblizing him (and so killing him) but he did not. PIS? Perhaps but its how he fought.



Headcanon, either you admit to acknowledging that Madara’s arsenal was restricted by plot or you don’t, but you’re not going to sit there and spew that “in universe reason” as to why JJ Madara didn’t use a technique he spammed as an Edo. Additionally your interpretation of my statement is false, since Madara using Preta in that scenario wouldn’t win him the fight, unlike in your OOC auto-win Jigen scenario. You’re failing on all fronts, mate.



> Being bisected is clearly suffering tons of damage. It took him a while to regen from that. If he took no damage it woudn't even scratch him. Jigen took a kick from RSM Naruto while in Base and was not shown bleeding or having any scratches on his faces. Him preferring to avoid being hit by Sasuke's sword proves nothing given how Sasuke's sword can pierce both RSM Naruto's and Juubi Madara's skin.


Clearly it isn’t for JJins but definitely is for Isshiki lmfao. But your argument is flawed since Juubito was shown healing from non-Senjutsu rasenshuriken+Amaterasu combo; he suffered no damage at all but his skin was singed and chose to heal from it. Back to the point I made, everything that sliced through Madara would definitely slice through Isshiki and the Fate Bros, same as Obito’s arm. Or I could say that JJins are only ripped apart so easily because they can heal, typical of Majin Buu type characters. Either way, Juubidara shit diffs your boy.


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## Omote (Oct 14, 2020)

Madara fans in the same trash can for forgotten characters as the Sannin, Hashirama, Masters, and Hokage

 You love to see the Shounen Power creep, have fun crying about the canon with the other fanbases Madara stans

Reactions: Like 1


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## Arles Celes (Oct 14, 2020)

Animegoin said:


> Stop lying to yourself lmfao, he was stabbed yet suffered literally no damage and showed no pain from any of Sasuke’s and/or Naruto’s attacks.
> 
> Considering I exposed your flawed view on the matter of the respective Ameno uses in Boruto and Naruto, I don’t feel as though I need to proceed.
> 
> Jigen/Isshiki wouldn’t have dodged a rod either if Sasuke had swapped himself with one, rather than trading places with Jigen. Neither would Jigen be able to dodge Naruto and Sasuke’s Six Paths binding attack. Kaguya avoided it with Ameno and as I proved before, Jigen and Isshiki can’t comprehend being repositioned by Ameno. Literally every time it happens, he says “Annoying Rinnegan”, and those swaps were used without intent to harm Isshiki. He’s benefitting from Fate Bro PIS and regardless of how much you lie to yourself, you aren’t changing the established facts.



Neither did he manage to damage Naruto or Sasuke. His Limbo hitting RSM Naruto in the face did not even make him bleed.

Madara's speed? Also no big deal for fate bros.


"Jigen/Isshiki wouln't have dodge a rod either *IF* Sasuke...". Sasuke needs to react to said attack first. If his execution of Ameno is slower than Isshiki's/Jigen's rods then it won't take him nowhere. We might as well argue that part 1 Sakura could pierce Minato's head with a kunai IF she could land it in the first place.

Saying he is benefitting from PIS is already admitting defeat man since it means that IC Madara cannot win. And Jigen/Isshiki (...and pretty much any character really) could always fight with more intelligence too.




Animegoin said:


> Kurama’s tail =/= FTG, which a non-JJin Madara evaded with neg diff. Also your statement is pretty much a lie since Jigen was turned facing Sasuke, whom was  literally in front of Naruto’s humongous avatar lol.



The tails were already coming at him the moment he turned and he was still sitting on the ground then. Plus it was RSM Kurama.




Animegoin said:


> On the contrary, Madara fought stronger and more intelligent Fate Bros than Isshiki is currently fighting, so likewise Isshiki wouldn’t be able to give WA Fate Bros trouble while Madara would neg the current variants. If JJ Madara had CES’d he flatten Isshiki. Isshiki’s hits couldn’t even greatly damage Kashin , dude had to drop a pillar on his arm just to get him down lmao



And you say I use headcanons...

I wait for those Boruto pages or databook were it is stated that Naruto and Sasuke got weaker or dumber.

Its a shame though that I could never see that omnipotent Madara of whom you are speaking about. The one that was capable of no diff stomping the entire Otsutsuki clan and whose feats made him untouchable and unstoppable.

Yeah, him getting pommeled and almost killed by Guy never happened. Plus his 2nd Rinnegan gave him a 100x boost in speed and intelligence. Naruto and Sasuke clearly were using Infinite Izanagi against him as he killed them dozens of times when they were empowered waaaaay beyond what they currently are. 

100% (f)canon

Reactions: Like 2


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## MYGod000 (Oct 14, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> His body was pierced by the sword so he clearly was hurt. He just regenerated. He is no super tank with an impenetrable body.
> 
> The key when using Ameno is having reflexes and body speed equal or superior to your opponent. Same with Hirashin.
> 
> ...




I read your whole reply to that guy...and the only thing I got out of your Message to him was

1) having  More chakra doesn't mean they are superior
2) You tried to use Momoshiki saying the 9 tails has Massive who powers is only a piece of the 10 Tails
3) You tried to use Madara getting sliced in half to Naruto kicking Jigen and not getting any damage

  According to your Argument Kaguya has Way More chakra then Madara doesn't prove she is superior to him in every-way.


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## Animegoin (Oct 14, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Neither did he manage to damage Naruto or Sasuke. His Limbo hitting RSM Naruto in the face did not even make him bleed.


Ah now you’re selectively choosing what to respond to, typical go-to move of the maimed victim; I’ve seen it hundreds of times.  Well since you did so first, I’ll reciprocate by responding to what I choose to since I am the victor after all.


Your first point is irrelevant since as I’ve said, neither JJ Madara nor his Limbos have ever CES’d. Additionally WA Naruto >>> Adult Naruto.
Please do better. 



> And you say I use headcanons...
> I wait for those Boruto pages or databook were it is stated that Naruto and Sasuke got weaker or dumber.


I’ll wait for the scans of Naruto and Sasuke boasting that they’re much stronger and smarter than their Six Paths teen selves.

Drop dem bitches.




> Yeah, him getting pommeled and almost killed by Guy never happened. Plus his 2nd Rinnegan gave him a 100x boost in speed and intelligence. Naruto and Sasuke clearly were using Infinite Izanagi against him as he killed them dozens of times when they were empowered waaaaay beyond what they currently are.


Now you’re deflecting as if any of that was ever part of my argument, lmfao look how pathetic you look. I’ll even let you point out where any of that is relevant to anything I said.


So let’s look at the facts, Madara has Kaguya inside of him...whom literally shitdiffed Isshiki. Madara’s better by default. While heavily nerfed he also fought stronger and smarter Fate Bros, who still couldn’t defeat him


Isshiki couldn’t neg Kashin with his freshly rejuvenated strength, has no answer for Limbo, JJ healing, Rinnegan Six Paths, JJ level chakra reserves nor his reflexes. Stay down, clown.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 14, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> I read your whole reply to that guy...and the only thing I got out of your Message to him was
> 
> 1) having  More chakra doesn't mean they are superior
> 2) You tried to use Momoshiki saying the 9 tails has Massive who powers is only a piece of the 10 Tails
> ...



Kaguya isn't more powerful than Madara just because she got more chakra.

She got stronger jutsus, greater chakra control and stronger chakra. Having more chakra helps her take advantage of her more powerful jutsus and not run out of chakra right away.

If more chakra alone did make one superior then Sasuke wouldn't have lasted even 2 pages against Madara.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 14, 2020)

Animegoin said:


> Ah now you’re selectively choosing what to respond to, typical go-to move of the maimed victim; I’ve seen it hundreds of times.  Well since you did so first, I’ll reciprocate by responding to what I choose to since I am the victor after all.
> 
> 
> Your first point is irrelevant since as I’ve said, neither JJ Madara nor his Limbos have ever CES’d. Additionally WA Naruto >>> Adult Naruto.
> Please do better.



So...since neither Madara nor his Limbos had ever shown CES then if they had shown said featless otherwordly CES then it would one shot Isshiki, right?

If Madara had this...if Madara had shown that...if Madara used that...

If Madara were not what he was but what you want him to be...then sure.




Animegoin said:


> I’ll wait for the scans of Naruto and Sasuke boasting that they’re much stronger and smarter than their Six Paths teen selves.
> 
> Drop dem bitches.



Because you clearly have panels where it is stated that they are both weaker now, right?

I might as well state that Lee is stronger than Kaguya too. Provide me with pages where Kaguya is boasting to be stronger and smarter than Lee. 



Animegoin said:


> So let’s look at the facts, Madara has Kaguya inside of him...whom literally shitdiffed Isshiki. Madara’s better by default. While heavily nerfed he also fought stronger and smarter Fate Bros, who still couldn’t defeat him
> 
> 
> Isshiki couldn’t neg Kashin with his freshly rejuvenated strength, has no answer for Limbo, JJ healing, Rinnegan Six Paths, JJ level chakra reserves nor his reflexes. Stay down, clown.



Sure, I recall facts.

Madara running away from the fate bros as they were kicking his ass, failing to kill Sakura (twice), failing to hurt or affect Naruto and Sasuke after being empowered by his 2nd Rinnegan and being offed in a super embarrassing way while mocked by Black Zetsu. Then turned into a woman.

And lets not forget when Guy was breaking all of his teeth. Or when Minato stole almost all of his nuts. 

Not to mention his previous countless failures that gave him the so cute "Faildara" nickname here coupled with countless asspulls to save his ass when he was on the losing side.

Of course it never happened in your canon so you are free to discard such fanfiction.


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## Animegoin (Oct 14, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> So...since neither Madara nor his Limbos had ever shown CES then if they had shown said featless otherwordly CES then it would one shot Isshiki, right?
> 
> If Madara had this...if Madara had shown that...if Madara used that...
> 
> If Madara were not what he was but what you want him to be...then sure.


Not all since as I said, RSM Naruto is stronger and more durable than his Adult self. Therefore Teen Naruto tanking Limbo hits doesn’t mean that Isshiki or Adult Naruto could tank them.

Again please do better, thoroughly reading works wonders. 



> Because you clearly have panels where it is stated that they are both weaker now, right?
> 
> I might as well state that Lee is stronger than Kaguya too. Provide me with pages where Kaguya is boasting to be stronger than Lee.


So no panels? Gotcha, that’s all you had to say.

I accept your concession on this subject too.




> Sure, I recall facts.
> 
> Madara running away from the fate bros as they were kicking his ass, failing to kill Sakura, failing to hurt or affect Naruto and Sasuke after being empowered by his 2nd Rinnegan and being offed in a super embarrassing way while mocked by Black Zetsu.
> 
> Of course it never happened in your canon so you are free to discard such fanfiction.



So you’re ignoring that Madara hosts Kaguya, whom shitdiffed Isshiki? You’re also ignoring that WA Fate Bros >>> Adult variants? And also ignoring that Isshiki doesn’t scale to either of the aforementioned, canonically stronger parties? Isshiki whom couldn’t even kill Kashin 

Imagine thinking that a bottomless torso of an Otsutsuki retreating into the head of monk while his intestines are hanging out of himself as he bleeds to death is less embarrassing than what happened to Madara. Dude’s torso was left lying there on the ground like Madara left Sasuke
  

Keep denying the canon, simp. We’ll stick to the facts


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## MYGod000 (Oct 14, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Kaguya isn't more powerful than Madara just because she got more chakra.
> 
> She got stronger jutsus, greater chakra control and stronger chakra. Having more chakra helps her take advantage of her more powerful jutsus and not run out of chakra right away.
> 
> If more chakra alone did make one superior then Sasuke wouldn't have lasted even 2 pages against Madara.





That all fine, but Kaguya fighting skills are not on Madara's level.  

The Madara you're Arguing wasn't even using His full arsenal of Moves against Sasuke or Naruto; Nor did he have all his abilities at that time.  I'm sure if we take Away Juubi Obito's TSB, Strip him from using his most used ability, as well as half of the Rinnegan Tech(since hd didn't use them) and he is going to struggle heavily against Hashirama and EMS Madara. 

You tried to use Momoshiki Admitting that Naruto's 9 tails  has Massive amounts of chakra...but default Momoshiki would say the same About the Ten tails Madara, because 9 tails is a piece of the 10 Tails.  You can't Argue against that, Momoshiki would be even more impressed with the juubi than the 9 tails because of it's planet worth of chakra which is Leagues beyond the 9 tails. 


Not only that Madara is able to use _*Kekkei Mora Jutsu*_ which is leagues Beyond What Naruto and Sasuke can use. It is also far more Chakra Taxing than Anything in Naruto and sasuke Arsenal. 


By that Logic, Kojin shouldn't have lasted More than 2 pages against Isshiki, Yet we see him stop a punch, made isshiki Struggle. 

Naruto and Sasuke did well against a Heavily Nerf Madara and was about to lose to him...now how would they do against him with his full Arsenal, not restricted by the plot. seriously doubt they do anywhere close to as great.  Shinra Tensei makes Ninjutsu and taijutsu useless against him. 

Juubi Obito already blew half his body off with a TSB,  as Kaguya Shown it doesn't matter if their whole body is gone they can also come back. 




They operate on whole different level From non-Juubi jin.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 14, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> That all fine, but Kaguya fighting skills are not on Madara's level.
> 
> The Madara you're Arguing wasn't even using His full arsenal of Moves against Sasuke or Naruto; Nor did he have all his abilities at that time.  I'm sure if we take Away Juubi Obito's TSB, Strip him from using his most used ability, as well as half of the Rinnegan Tech(since hd didn't use them) and he is going to struggle heavily against Hashirama and EMS Madara.
> 
> ...



Madara did not use his full arsenal but neither were Naruto and Sasuke using all they got against him. In fact they were also tired due to previous fights.

Momo might be more impressed by Madara's Juubi chakra than Naruto's Kurama chakra but his interest in that regard was only so he could create a Shinju big enough to drain as much of the planet's chakra to create the biggest chakra fruit that he could. It does not make Madara superior to Naruto in power.

Can Madara use Kekkei Mora? I recall only Hago and Kaguya got that while everyone else got Kekkei Genkai versions of the same thing. I could remember it wrong though...

Naruto and Sasuke were about to lose to Madara...when? They dealt with all he threw at them. Later we saw Naruto holding his own sans Sasuke against Kaguya who is even stronger than Madara.


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## MYGod000 (Oct 14, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Madara did not use his full arsenal but neither were Naruto and Sasuke using all they got against him. In fact they were also tired due to previous fights.
> 
> Momo might be more impressed by Madara's Juubi chakra than Naruto's Kurama chakra but his interest in that regard was only so he could create a Shinju big enough to drain as much of the planet's chakra to create the biggest chakra fruit that he could. It does not make Madara superior to Naruto in power.
> 
> ...






The only arsenal Naruto didn't use was was His flying ability, 1000s of clones( which takes Kurama time to amass the chakra needed), boil Release.  Sasuke Didn't use indra's Arrow which He only used after He was in BPS. 

^everything Mentioned above is absorbed by _*Preta Path*_, otherwise he just uses _*Shinra Tensei *_Making those Jutsu Naruto and sasuke have useless. 



I know Momoshiki was Looking to revive the God tree...My point was Momoshiki Regardless of what he wanted to do would be far More impressed with the juubi over the 9 tails, because it leagues more powerful.  Yes, It does, Because Madara is able to do Kekkei Mora Jutsu which requires Far More chakra to do than anything Naruto and Sasuke have.  Madara is Far superior to Naruto and sasuke in Power, Naruto doesn't have a whole planet worth of chakra that he can use. 

*Mugen Tsukuyomi  *and *God: Nativity of a World of Trees * are Both Kekkei Mora Jutsu. 

Like you Just Mentioned Kaguya may have More chakra but she wasn't a better fighter than Madara.  They didn't Take Everything Madara threw at them...he only used Limbo+CT(Which Naruto and Sasuke had to work together to handle)+ MT(which sasuke stated only his Rinnegan+Susanoo can block)+ Nativity of a world of trees. 

^that isn't even close to All of Madara's arsenal. 


Mugen Tsukuyomi would have one shotted Naruto, they literally needed each other in the fight with Madara had and specific counters for some of Madara's Moves not all of them. 

Kaguya who Could be easily Tricked into by Transformation Jutsu, couldn't tell the difference between Shadow clones and the Real thing...Yeah...she may have had more chakra, but she was lacking in the intelligent department. 

Just so you know None of that Crap that worked on Kaguya would have ever worked on Madara.


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## Mar55 (Oct 14, 2020)

MYGod000 said:


> Kaguya Shown it doesn't matter if their whole body is gone they can also come back.


You cannot scale to Kaguya, she’s superior to everyone that came before her. Scaling doesn’t apply to inferior characters.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Alita (Oct 14, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> But you dont lol. Anyone that doesnt understand the story narrative is automatically a boruto fan to me. It’s one of my algorithms I set up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He either blitzes him as blasts his whole body away at once with a karma blast or dumps him in another dimension and calls it a day.


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## T-Bag (Oct 14, 2020)

Alita said:


> He either blitzes him as blasts his whole body away at once with a karma blast or dumps him in another dimension and calls it a day.


Or limbo cuts him down in half kaguya- style before he even has a chance to do any of that.


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## Alita (Oct 14, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> Or limbo cuts him down in half kaguya- style before he even has a chance to do any of that.



Considering isshiki is faster than juudara that won't be happening.


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## T-Bag (Oct 14, 2020)

Alita said:


> Considering isshiki is faster than juudara that won't be happening.


He cant see or sense it. It doesnt matter he gets split in half soon as the fight starts.


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## Animegoin (Oct 14, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Another neg diff solo



You already know


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## sabre320 (Oct 14, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> He cant see or sense it. It doesnt matter he gets split in half soon as the fight starts.


With what attacks is Madara cutting him in half exactly....dude tanked ces punches from rsm naruto casually and kicked through rsm avatar and ps while in a weaker form without trying...limbo cant even use ninjutsu lol. Iishiki in a weaker form casually blitzed the duo and lold ameno attempts how is madara reacting to him exactly especially with his shrinking tech in play .


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## Alita (Oct 14, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> He cant see or sense it. It doesnt matter he gets split in half soon as the fight starts.



Madara himself can be blitzed before he can get his limbo to do anything. Limbo isn't a threat regardless considering it couldn't even harm teen 6 paths sage mode naruto and all otsutsuki have flight which is a trait of 6 paths sage mode so they can likely sense it as well.


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## Perfect Susano (Oct 15, 2020)

Urashiki's words after stealing Mitsuki's Sage chakra

*Spoiler*: __ 









So no, none of the Otsutsuki outside of Kaguya possess Sage power. They don't use it to fly. Momoshiki, Kinshiki & Urashiki don't have it. Neither does Isshiki. So he cannot sense Limbo and there's no evidence that he can see it.


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## kayz (Oct 15, 2020)

Is this going on?

Isshiki kills him. Literally rips him apart.

Reactions: Like 1


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## T-Bag (Oct 15, 2020)

sabre320 said:


> With what attacks is Madara cutting him in half exactly....dude tanked ces punches from rsm naruto casually and kicked through rsm avatar and ps while in a weaker form without trying...limbo cant even use ninjutsu lol. Iishiki in a weaker form casually blitzed the duo and lold ameno attempts how is madara reacting to him exactly especially with his shrinking tech in play .


What do you mean limbo’s cant use ninjutsu? The databook outright dispels that argument. Not to mention if regular shadow clones can use ninjutsu, it’s pretty silly to assume “perfect clones” cant. You understand...let’s not blow this outta proportion..lol

ishitti beat the most retarded variants of the fatebro’s. *clap clap* and who says Madara cant do the same? Recall obito’s words what would happen if madara got both his eyes. And we saw what happened. They couldnt touch him, and he easily executed the moons eye operation without a hitch. Naruto and sasuke were to busy shooting stones down which madara referred to as “raindrops”. It’s nothing too serious beating naruto and sasuke..

madara has limbo, isshitty cant shrink that im sorry boss. He needs to “see” something to shrink it and he doesnt have the rinnegan so he’s outclassed. The limbo clones knocked out bijuu’s of their ass to the point they were weakened. A blow like that would implode every organ isshityy has.



Alita said:


> Madara himself can be blitzed before he can get his limbo to do anything. Limbo isn't a threat regardless considering it couldn't even harm teen 6 paths sage mode naruto and all otsutsuki have flight which is a trait of 6 paths sage mode so they can likely sense it as well.



ishitty cant sense shit. Where has He displayed this ability?he hasn’t.  Even if your theory is correct, it’s completely disregarded in the context of boruto.
And no lol he’s not blitzing literally the 2nd most powerful character in the manga before he can activate limbo. No one is that good.

remember madara cant be KO’d with a simple roundhouse/side kick. Maybe that typa blitz works against naruto and sasuke, but those shitty kicks arent doing much to Madara.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 15, 2020)

Perfect Susano said:


> Urashiki's words after stealing Mitsuki's Sage chakra
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



So Urashiki represents all Otsutsuki now?

If he includes ALL then I guess not only Isshiki, Momo and Kinshiki but also Kaguya and the O strongest guy/leader also do not have Sage powers.

Or he just speaks about himself. Little about Urashiki makes sense anyway.


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## dergeist (Oct 15, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> So Urashiki represents all Otsutsuki now?
> 
> If he includes ALL then I guess not only Isshiki, Momo and Kinshiki but also Kaguya and the O strongest guy/leader also do not have Sage powers.
> 
> Or he just speaks about himself. Little about Urashiki makes sense anyway.



He's referring to the Otsutsuki clan, trying to restrict it to Uru is a joke.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 15, 2020)

dergeist said:


> He's referring to the Otsutsuki clan, trying to restrict it to Uru is a joke.



Kaguya is part of the Otsutsuki clan though.

Either Uru knows about her too or he is not given THAT much info about other members of his clan.

Was he even alive when Isshiki and Kaguya arrived on Earth? Does he know them personally?

That plus the fact that Urashiki is a filler Otsutsuki that only appears in the anime and little about him makes sense.


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## xingi (Oct 15, 2020)

Perfect Susano said:


> Urashiki's words after stealing Mitsuki's Sage chakra
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Ehh you could say that for urashiki, Momoshiki and kinshiki but isshiki has been on earth for a 1000 years and instantly recognized kk's sage mode, him being able to use or not in some say is just speculation for now but he's  not in the same bracket as the other otsutsukis here


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## dergeist (Oct 15, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Kaguya is part of the Otsutsuki clan though.
> 
> Either Uru knows about her too or he is not given THAT much info about other members of his clan.
> 
> ...



Nope, he knows she exists, but he doesn't know which powers she gained after becoming the 10 tails. That is why her kids have the senjutsu of 6 paths. 

He knows of Momoshiki, and Kinshiki so he knows of the older Otsutsuki and they are from Kaguya's age. Heck he even knows of Momoshiki and all, so his statement refers to all Otsutsuki in general. The exception being Kaguya since she's the 10 tails herself so has it's senjutsu like the joins gain. 

If you want to treat him as filler, then you should treat everything that happened in the anime against the manga filler.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Arles Celes (Oct 15, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Nope, he knows she exists, but he doesn't know which powers she gained after becoming the 10 tails. That is why her kids have the senjutsu of 6 paths.
> 
> He knows of Momoshiki, and Kinshiki so he knows of the older Otsutsuki and they are from Kaguya's age. Heck he even knows of Momoshiki and all, so his statement refers to all Otsutsuki in general. The exception being Kaguya since she's the 10 tails herself so has it's senjutsu like the joins gain.
> 
> If you want to treat him as filler, then you should treat everything that happened in the anime against the manga filler.



Kaguya is hardly the only O clan member to eat a chakra fruit. Amado make it clear that is how O clan guys evolve. Kaguyas fruit did not even drain the whole planet of chakra so it wasnt perfect.

And still no proof  Urashiki knew personally Kaguya or Isshiki and so their powers. If he was informed well enough then he would know that Hago and Hamura gained superior SM to even Mitsukis and so his power isnt unique for the whole O clan.

Isshiki himself even recignized SM on sight unlike Urashiki.

Toneri himself of all people had a RSM of sorts with gudoudamas included.

At best Urashiki got info about Momo and Kinshiki.


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## Alita (Oct 15, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> What do you mean limbo’s cant use ninjutsu? The databook outright dispels that argument. Not to mention if regular shadow clones can use ninjutsu, it’s pretty silly to assume “perfect clones” cant. You understand...let’s not blow this outta proportion..lol
> 
> ishitti beat the most retarded variants of the fatebro’s. *clap clap* and who says Madara cant do the same? Recall obito’s words what would happen if madara got both his eyes. And we saw what happened. They couldnt touch him, and he easily executed the moons eye operation without a hitch. Naruto and sasuke were to busy shooting stones down which madara referred to as “raindrops”. It’s nothing too serious beating naruto and sasuke..
> 
> ...



Teen rinnegan sauce out sped him so isshiki should have no problem blitzing him. And regardless it isn't a threat to isshiki for reasons I already mentioned. And lol at madara being the 2nd strongest character in the series.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Alita (Oct 15, 2020)

Perfect Susano said:


> Urashiki's words after stealing Mitsuki's Sage chakra
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Isshiki recognized KK's sage mode immediately so he is definitely knowledgeable of it and has been on earth long enough to know about it. Toneri definitely has it considering he has tsb's. Hagomoro and Hamura should have it as well for the same reasons as well as that toneri's powers are hamura's as well.


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## Perfect Susano (Oct 15, 2020)

Alita said:


> Isshiki recognized KK's sage mode immediately so he is definitely knowledgeable of it and has been on earth long enough to know about it. Toneri definitely has it considering he has tsb's. Hagomoro and Hamura should have it as well for the same reasons as well as that toneri's powers are hamura's as well.


The statement has nothing to do with Hagoromo, Hamura or their descendants. Isshiki knowing about Sage Mode doesn't mean anything either.


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## Tsukuyomi (Oct 15, 2020)

Alita said:


> Teen rinnegan sauce out sped him so isshiki should have no problem blitzing him. And regardless it isn't a threat to isshiki for reasons I already mentioned. And lol at madara being the 2nd strongest character in the series.



But Madara is the second strongest character In the series
With access to Six Paths Ct,Kaguya's space time Ninjutsu and the ability to even regenerate his soul who can beat him


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## dergeist (Oct 15, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Kaguya is hardly the only O clan member to eat a chakra fruit. Amado make it clear that is how O clan guys evolve. Kaguyas fruit did not even drain the whole planet of chakra so it wasnt perfect.
> 
> And still no proof  Urashiki knew personally Kaguya or Isshiki and so their powers. If he was informed well enough then he would know that Hago and Hamura gained superior SM to even Mitsukis and so his power isnt unique for the whole O clan.
> 
> ...



There's so much BS here, it looks like you're trolling.

Amado didn't make anything clear, the Otsutsuki turn fruits into pills as we've seen. What Kaguya did was eat the fruit and became one with the divine tree, nobody else has done that yet (how she gained senjutsu and so did her kids). Also, draining the whole planet was never a condition of a chakra fruit being a chakra fruit. According to the filler anime they are harvested at 10, Kaguya's fruit was at level 16. 

The second paragraph is a joke, he even knew what was happening on Earth and was informing Momoshiki and Kinshiki of it. He knew all that, yet didn't know about Kaguya or Isshiti 

As for the claim, Isshiti knows the Otstsuki clan and he claims nobody has it, which is correct. Kaguya betrayed the clan and gained the power, so wasn't a member of the clan. Oh and the fact Foddershiki thought he could beat her is proof she was far inferior to Momoshiki bwfore gaining her powers. 

There's no at best about it, just because you want to wank based off of head canon.


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## Altiora Night (Oct 15, 2020)

This thread again ?

Isshiki murderstomps this fool.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Oct 15, 2020)

Altiora Night said:


> This thread again ?
> 
> Isshiki stomps this fool.


My son where have you been


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## Altiora Night (Oct 15, 2020)

King789 said:


> My son where have you been


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## Tsukuyomi (Oct 15, 2020)

@New Folder 
Calm down bro.
I was being sarcastic


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## Tsukuyomi (Oct 15, 2020)

Altiora Night said:


>


I honestly thought I was not your ninja anymore.
Cause whenever i tagged you in threads you never replied


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## Altiora Night (Oct 15, 2020)

King789 said:


> I honestly thought I was not your ninja anymore.
> Cause whenever i tagged you in threads you never replied


No worries bro. Just took some time off from this site.



A bit busy these days.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 15, 2020)

dergeist said:


> There's so much BS here, it looks like you're trolling.
> 
> Amado didn't make anything clear, the Otsutsuki turn fruits into pills as we've seen. What Kaguya did was eat the fruit and became one with the divine tree, nobody else has done that yet (how she gained senjutsu and so did her kids). Also, draining the whole planet was never a condition of a chakra fruit being a chakra fruit. According to the filler anime they are harvested at 10, Kaguya's fruit was at level 16.
> 
> ...



And you believe said pills from the chakra fruit are weaker than the chakra fruit itself? Even if someone ate all of them?

Also where was it stated that no one aside from Kaguya ever became one with the Shinju?

Had no one aside from Kaguya ever harvested a fruit and drained the planet of chakra then Amado woukd never knew about it since Kaguya herself did not go so far.

Plus Kaguya gained all of that power after eating the chakra fruit. The gaining Juubi/Shinju part was seemingly automatic after eating the fruit.

If that was not enough we can see that Isshiki got a Juubi in his basement. So either he ate a chakra fruit from a different planet and got Juubi that way (but he separated from it after possesing Jigen) or defeated another O clan member who acquired Juubi via chakra fruit eating.

I'd rather not use anime examples when the manga got its own take on the whole O clan thing. Maybe the anime will have its own take on Isshiki too...

Momoshiki believing he could beat her was either him being arrogant, him believing to be able to pull that off after eating the fruit from Earth chakra, an inconsistency or a retcon of Kaguyas power.

Unless you believe it makes sense for a weaker than Momo, Kaguya being superior to Isshiki whose weaker forms exceed Naruto and Sasuke in power.

And where is proof that Madara is anything more than an O clan wannabe? Even a half blood like Toneri got better feats than Juubi Madara.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dergeist (Oct 15, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> And you believe said pills from the chakra fruit are weaker than the chakra fruit itself? Even if someone ate all of them?



Of course, they only grant longevity and we saw a fused Momoshiki and his former form whose been eating pills for who knows how long, was fodder.



> Also where was it stated that no one aside from Kaguya ever became one with the Shinju?



Why would it need to be stated when we only have Kaguya from the Ostsuki being shown to be immortal, have senjutsu and is the shinju. Who else from the 5+ shown so far has that to their name.



> Had no one aside from Kaguya ever harvested a fruit and drained the planet of chakra then Amado woukd never knew about it since Kaguya herself did not go so far.



This argument is based on headcanon, and they don't drain entire planets. They harvest a fruit at level 10 and Kaguya's was at level 16.



> lus Kaguya gained all of that power after eating the chakra fruit. The gaining Juubi/Shinju part was seemingly automatic after eating the fruit.



Again, we have Momoshiki eating away pills yet not gaining those powers, and who knows how long he's been eating fruit pills for.



> If that was not enough we can see that Isshiki got a Juubi in his basement. So either he ate a chakra fruit from a different planet and got Juubi that way (but he separated from it after possesing Jigen) or defeated another O clan member who acquired Juubi via chakra fruit eating.



Pure fanfiction, he has the Juubi in another dimension and nothing shows he didn't steal it from another place, defeating another 0 clan member doesn't give one Jyubi. Prime Ishhiki with fruit getting his shit pushed in by pre-fruit Kaguya makes him look 10 times worse.



> I'd rather not use anime examples when the manga got its own take on the whole O clan thing. Maybe the anime will have its own take on Isshiki too...



Pick one or the other as whole, don't jump between what you like as acceptable and dislike as unacceptable.



> Momoshiki believing he could beat her was either him being arrogant, him believing to be able to pull that off after eating the fruit from Earth chakra, an inconsistency or a retcon of Kaguyas power.



Nope, Momoshiki was talking about pre-fruit Kaguay he ahd no idea Kaguya ate the fruit at that time.



> Unless you believe it makes sense for a weaker than Momo, Kaguya being superior to Isshiki whose weaker forms exceed Naruto and Sasuke in power.



Of course that is true, but we also accept adult Naruto and Sasuke have been scaled down to early WA KCM Naruto level, so the scaling fits.



> And where is proof that Madara is anything more than an O clan wannabe? Even a half blood like Toneri got better feats than Juubi Madara.



Who said Toneri is half blood, on top of that one 8 tails BB was going to destroy the moon so Toneri's feats are equal to what exactly? And Toneri got neg diffed by one KCM Naruto punch as per canon. Madara is the second sage of six paths and as Hogaromo said closing in on my power and going towards my mother's. That is where Madara fits on the scale, which required Asspulls and Deus ex machina to beat. And we saw pureblood O clan member Kinshiki get his shit pushed in by Chojuro  and Kurotsuchi, while Momoshiki was getting his shit pushed in by Darui.

You're wank is based off of head canon + fanfiction, and ingornig the facts that slap it down like above. You should start bringing facts now.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 15, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Of course, they only grant longevity and we saw a fused Momoshiki and his former form whose been eating pills for who knows how long, was fodder.



Where is it stated that all they grant is longevity? And if that was the case then why would Momo prefer those pills over the full chakra fruit that also grants immortality?




dergeist said:


> This argument is based on headcanon, and they don't drain entire planets. They harvest a fruit at level 10 and Kaguya's was at level 16.



They drain the entire planet of all life. You may argue that the planet won't turn into a wasteland but the chakra of all living beings will be absorbed.

Its clearly stated by Amado.

Unless you start questioning what Amado said...but will you then question that Kaguya was the one to wound Isshiki too or that fact you will remember well and devote all your soul to it?



dergeist said:


> Again, we have Momoshiki eating away pills yet not gaining those powers, and who knows how long he's been eating fruit pills for.



He ate pills from some of Hachibis chakra and possibly from some of Naruto's Kurama's chakra. Not from a chakra fruit.




dergeist said:


> Pure fanfiction, he has the Juubi in another dimension and nothing shows he didn't steal it from another place, defeating another 0 clan member doesn't give one Jyubi. Prime Ishhiki with fruit getting his shit pushed in by pre-fruit Kaguya makes him look 10 times worse.



So Juubi was born on its own and Isshiki just luckily happened to run into it and capture it?

Or did he purchase it during some sales on a black market then? 



dergeist said:


> You're wank is based off of head canon + fanfiction, and ingornig the facts that slap it down like above. You should start bringing facts now.



All your arguments are based mostly on the assumption that Naruto and Sasuke are weaker than before despite it not being stated anywhere.

One might as well argue that Chuunin exams Sasuke is stronger than his Hebi or MS versions and he got weaker since then. Why not?

I could as well argue that Isshiki/Jigen written by Kishi in the original manga would be a galaxy buster.

Unless you believe that all of Boruto is fan fiction and your assumption is canon.


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## dergeist (Oct 15, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> Where is it stated that all they grant is longevity? And if that was the case then why would Momo prefer those pills over the full chakra fruit that also grants immortality?



Oh I don't know the fact that Momoshiki tells us what the pills do. Also, Foddershiki doesn't know how to gain immortality, like Kaguya, otherwise he would've.




> They drain the entire planet of all life. You may argue that the planet won't turn into a wasteland but the chakra of all living beings will be absorbed.
> 
> Its clearly stated by Amado.



Nope, if that was the case then after nagging Isshiti Kaguya would've waited.



> Unless you start questioning what Amado said...but will you then question that Kaguya was the one to wound Isshiki too or that fact you will remember well and devote all your soul to it?



Yep, base pre-fruit Kaguya negged Isshiti. However, some part of his claim is speculation.




> He ate pills from some of Hachibis chakra and possibly from some of Naruto's Kurama's chakra. Not from a chakra fruit.



Nope, he ate around half of Kurama's chakra, iirc and ate who knows how much of Hachibi, however he's been harvesting and eating chakra fruit pills for who knows how long (1000+ years give or take a few).






> So Juubi was born on its own and Isshiki just luckily happened to run into it and capture it?
> 
> Or did he purchase it during some sales on a black market then?



It's like you don't read the manga, Otstuki plant fruit trees and harvest. Isshiti goes between planets finds one takes it to his hiding place.




> All your arguments are based mostly on the assumption that Naruto and Sasuke are weaker than before despite it not being stated anywhere.



Why would it need be stated when we saw relative performance. Kinshiki was pressing Sasuke, while Chojuro and Kuro slapped him around and even reatrained his fodder ass. Momoshiki was running from Darui, fused Momoshiki was getting pressed by geninruto etc. Then we have teen Naruto and Sasuke were trading blows with Kaguya, whose pre-fruit form neg diffed Prime-Isshiti, whose weaker form slapped around Adult Naruto and Sasuke. Why does an observable fact need to be stated



> One might as well argue that Chuunin exams Sasuke is stronger than his Hebi or MS versions and he got weaker since then. Why not?
> 
> I could as well argue that Isshiki/Jigen written by Kishi in the original manga would be a galaxy buster.
> 
> Unless you believe that all of Boruto is fan fiction and your assumption is canon.



Still waiting on a credible rebuttal or argument


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## Arles Celes (Oct 15, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Oh I don't know the fact that Momoshiki tells us what the pills do. Also, Fodderahiki doesn't know how to gain immortality like Kaguya.



And how do you know he does not know how to gain immortality unlike Kaguya?





dergeist said:


> Yep, base pre-fruit Kaguya negged Isshiti. However, some part of his claim is speculation.



Or maybe all of it is speculation or a lie.

Of course even if Amado said outright that Isshiki is far stronger than Kaguya ever was you would just disregard it.

You will just go with what suits you.



dergeist said:


> Nope, he ate around half of Kurama's chakra, iirc and ate who knows how much of Hachibi, however he's been harvesting and eating chakra fruit pills for who knows how long (1000+ years give or take a few).
> 
> .




The only chakra fruit like thing he was ever show eating was Kinshiki though. We never saw him eat a chakra fruit harvested from any planet



dergeist said:


> It's like you don't read the manga, Otstuki plant fruit trees and harvest. Isshiti goes between planets finds one takes it to his hiding place.



So you believe then that Isshiki ate a chakra fruit in the past and got the same stuff that Kaguya got then?



dergeist said:


> Why would it need be stated when we saw relative performance. Kinshiki was pressing Sasuke, while Chojuro and Kuro slapped him around and even reatrained his fodder ass. Momoshiki was running from Darui, fused Momoshiki was getting pressed by geninruto etc. Then we have teen Naruto and Sasuke were trading blows with Kaguya, whose pre-fruit form neg diffed Prime-Isshiti, whose weaker form slapped around Adult Naruto and Sasuke. Why does an observable fact need to be stated



I love this argument.

In that case I might as well bring Black Zetsu who curb stomped 3 Eyed Shinju Madara no diff. 

The same Black Zetsu who was stomped by a pre-kage Choujuro. 

Being stomped by two kages plus Sasuke like it happened to Kinshiki or being stomped by one Jounin like it happened to Black Zetsu who later stomped Shinju Madara in turn... 

Doesn't sound like a tough choice. 

Since Naruto and Sasuke got weaker over time then maybe Madara got weaker too after Lee kicked him in half? 

To get stomped by a Zetsu is so embarrassing.


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## dergeist (Oct 15, 2020)

Arles Celes said:


> And how do you know he does not know how to gain immortality unlike Kaguya?



IF he knew he would've.






> Or maybe all of it is speculation or a lie.
> 
> Of course even if Amado said outright that Isshiki is far stronger than Kaguya ever was you would just disregard it.
> 
> You will just go with what suits you.



I don't care for strawmen, it's canon. Pre-fruit Kaguya fodderstomped Prime Isshhiti.





> The only chakra fruit like thing he was ever show eating was Kinshiki though. We never saw him eat a chakra fruit harvested from any planet



We don't need to see him doing it, since he harvests fruits. That's a fact, that is unless you're telling us he never are any fruits/fruit pills for a 1000 or so years until earth




> So you believe then that Isshiki ate a chakra fruit in the past and got the same stuff that Kaguya got then?



Nope, otherwise he would've had the same powers as Kaguya. He may have eaten lesser fruits like other Otsustuki, those that don't grant immortality.






> I love this argument.
> 
> In that case I might as well bring Black Zetsu who curb stomped 3 Eyed Shinju Madara no diff.
> 
> ...



Imagine thinking deus ex machina (BZ) is equivalent to an actual battle. We actually saw Gokage go and neg diff the Otsutsuki's like the fodder they were and we saw Sasuke jobbing to them in battle. There's a difference between that and deus ex machina that is Bz. Although, we know pre-fruit fodder Kaguya, who was fodder before Jobvermomo, curb fodderstomp Isshiti prime, which would put him below gateless Lee


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## dergeist (Oct 15, 2020)

Animegoin said:


> Aww, the little simp is still trying to convince himself that Isshiki truly lasts longer than second against a being stronger than the Kaguya that negged Isshiki and , out of pity, let him flee for his life like a bitch with his organs hangin out.
> 
> Madara whom also hosts that very same Kaguya inside of himself
> 
> ...



Damn, you ended his career neg diff


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## MYGod000 (Oct 15, 2020)

Mar55 said:


> You cannot scale to Kaguya, she’s superior to everyone that came before her. Scaling doesn’t apply to inferior characters.




Why not since they have a deep understanding of the Concept "COAT" made by Hagoromo.  They Still live on a Far higher plane than Non Juubi Jin Otsutsuki who you don't need  Sage mode to fight them like you do for Juubi Jin just to get pass TSB to touch them.


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## Android (Oct 15, 2020)

Alita said:


> But I expect the usual madara wankers to do what they always do and drag this thread out for numerous unneccessary pages.


Prophecy confirmed.


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## T-Bag (Oct 15, 2020)

Alita said:


> Teen rinnegan sauce out sped him so isshiki should have no problem blitzing him. And regardless it isn't a threat to isshiki for reasons I already mentioned. And lol at madara being the 2nd strongest character in the series.


Talk to me when someone else opens the Rinnei Sharingan. So far I only know kaguya, and the other guy said to be reaching for her power.

lmk


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## Mar55 (Oct 15, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> and the other guy said to be reaching for her power.


No one is ever said to be reaching her power. Hagaromo, who was still stronger than Madara at the time, noted Madara was "getting close to" him. He immediately followed that with attempting to reach Kaguya's power, which is far superior to Hagaromo - as the man himself claimed - and consistently dwarfs Madara's most powerful form to date. 

He explicitly doesn't compare to her, no one until other full bred Ōtsutsuki showed up did.


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## T-Bag (Oct 15, 2020)

Mar55 said:


> No one is ever said to be reaching her power. Hagaromo, who was still stronger than Madara at the time, noted Madara was "getting close to" him. He immediately followed that with attempting to reach Kaguya's power, which is far superior to Hagaromo - as the man himself claimed - and consistently dwarfs Madara's most powerful form to date.
> 
> He explicitly doesn't compare to her, no one until other full bred Ōtsutsuki showed up did.


I know what was said.. lol

Madara became _immortal _after realizing he had infact absorbed Kaguya, opened the rinnei sharingan to use Tsukuyomi to bring back all the chakra in the world into the divine tree for his own use.

Tell me who else came this close to kaguya? Isshiti?


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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 15, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> Madara became _immortal _after realizing he had infact absorbed Kaguya, opened the rinnei sharingan to use Tsukuyomi to bring back all the chakra in the world into the divine tree for his own use.



" The time to become one is now!"

He literally discovered in that moment the divine tree IS KAGUYA!


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## Alita (Oct 16, 2020)

Perfect Susano said:


> The statement has nothing to do with Hagoromo, Hamura or their descendants. Isshiki knowing about Sage Mode doesn't mean anything either.



You said none of the otsutsuki had sage powers save for kaguya. Those people were otsutsuki so yes your statement did have to do with them.


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## Yumi Zoro (Oct 16, 2020)

This discussion is still going on?

I AM SURPRISED, after all we all know the winner is Isshiki who probably low low diff.

Not just Boruto fans, even Madara fans know it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perfect Susano (Oct 16, 2020)

Alita said:


> You said none of the otsutsuki had sage powers save for kaguya. Those people were otsutsuki so yes your statement did have to do with them.


Urashiki's statement pertains to individuals actively affiliated with the clan. Kaguya and her descendants are not. Isshiki, Momoshiki, Kinshiki & Urashiki do not have it.


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## Alita (Oct 16, 2020)

Perfect Susano said:


> Urashiki's statement pertains to individuals actively affiliated with the clan. Kaguya and her descendants are not. Isshiki, Momoshiki, Kinshiki & Urashiki do not have it.



YOU didn't specify that in your original comment I responded to tho. You just said otsutsuki.


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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 16, 2020)

Alita said:


> YOU didn't specify that in your original comment I responded to tho. You just said otsutsuki.



So, limbo one shots, yay or nay?


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## Alita (Oct 16, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> So, limbo one shots, yay or nay?



Of course not. He couldn't even take out a weaker version of rikudou naruto with it.


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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 16, 2020)

Alita said:


> Of course not. He couldn't even take out a weaker version of rikudou naruto with it.



You mean from Juudara who was nerfed from using most of his arsenal, and was only using Limbos for taijutsu even though they have equal power to the original as per DBIV


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 16, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> You mean from Juudara who was nerfed from using most of his arsenal, and was only using Limbos for taijutsu even though they have equal power to the original as per DBIV



Naruto and Sasuke were nerfed too, dawg. Neither went remotely all out.

In fact, neither even used his mechas until the fight with Kaguya (and Naruto still didn't).

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 16, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Naruto and Sasuke were nerfed too, dawg. Neither went remotely all out.
> 
> In fact, neither even used his mechas until the fight with Kaguya (and Naruto still didn't).



Exactly. At this point in time, all of them had a diverse movepool but a limited panel time to show them all. You don't get to show all your abilities in every battle. We see this even with Kakashi. I don't remember him using the Raikiri dog tech he used against Pain in all his panel time in the War Arc for instance. Ridoku Naruto and Sasuke still had yet to master all their powers. Though, Sasuke did use PS to cut down  a meteor or two.

But Madara barely used much of his arsenal as well.

But people judge Madara only on what he showed in that limited fight that ended with him getting backstabbed instead of looking at everything he should be able to do had the battle gone to completion.

for instance, even when he Madara was fighting 8th gate Gai, 7th Gate Gai, Gaara , kakashi, Obito, etc. He was only using taijutsu/bukijnjutsu and TSO offenses and defenses. But as a TTJ he should also have access to bijuu bombs like Juubito for instance.
And we know he can use rinnegan techs, since he showed limbo and Chibaku Tensei.

And For instance, DBIV says limbo clones have equal ability. Which is something I also believe based on how Madara seemingly knocked down 9 bijuus one after the other almost simultaneously. I doubt he had the physical strength to do that and the speed. It happened so fast Gaara was like "what just happened?!" I think its possible the limbo clone used some kind of invinsible ninjutsu there.


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