# What do you hate more, authors like Kishi or authors like Kubo and Hiro?



## Mikon (Jun 3, 2015)

What do you hate more? an author that had some good parts in the story and then just completly destroyed almost everything (like Kishi) or authors that had been on the mediocre tier from the beginning and the trolling was there right from the start (like Kubo and Hiro)?
I know that SS in Bleach is considered the best arc, but is it really that good? i watched it in 2008 (and Bleach was what got me into anime in general, but then i dropped it in the Aizen vs Ichigo fight)
What are your thoughts?


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## Punished Kiba (Jun 3, 2015)

Kishi. (since he impacted me more)

At least Kubo and Hiro try to flesh out/ give screentime to majority of their Characters instead of limiting it to just 2 or 3.


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## Mikon (Jun 3, 2015)

This is one of the reasons why Neji's death was so random and bad
Just couldn't careless for his character after we don't saw him for like 200 chapters


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## Stan Lee (Jun 3, 2015)

Kishi insults his readers intelligence.


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## Punished Kiba (Jun 3, 2015)

Kishi didn't care about majority of his characters, it's so obvious at this point.

Such a Sh*t Author


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## Orochibuto (Jun 3, 2015)

Kishi is like having a girlfriend that appears to be nice and then turns out to be an abusive bitch.

Kubo is like a girlfriend who you know from the start is an abusive bitch, you know what you are signing in from the start.

So I say Kishi is worse.

EDIT:

Hope you are ready OP, because you are about to enter Arokh's Club of The Badass


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## Tapion (Jun 3, 2015)

Kishi is much worse, I haven't seen an author so bias when it comes to characters. For every Uchiha he wanks, Sakura gets jizzed on.


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## Skywalker (Jun 3, 2015)

Kishi, atleast we get fan service with Bleach, Naruto is just bad story telling.


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## Alkaid (Jun 3, 2015)

Bleach is boring as fuck


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## Lucaniel (Jun 3, 2015)

i'd say kubo

kishi makes an effort, he just sucks. kubo doesn't make an effort at all, and he also sucks


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## Stan Lee (Jun 3, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> i'd say kubo
> 
> kishi makes an effort, he just sucks. kubo doesn't make an effort at all, and he also sucks



Kishi makes an effort? Ever since his first editor left Kishi has been straight up lazy. Repeating the same shit and ignoring one of his main characters(Sakura).


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 3, 2015)

Zero Requiem said:


> Kishi insults his readers intelligence.



and Mashima and Kubo don't? 

I say Mashima because for all their faults Kubo and Kishi at least wrote something that resembles a story, while FT is pure fan service at this point



Zero Requiem said:


> Kishi makes an effort? Ever since his first editor left Kishi has been straight up lazy repeating the same shit and ignoring one of his main characters(Sakura).



maybe because Sakura was forced into the story by the editor?

she's practically the editor's insert, and it's disgusting how the editor wanks her in the novel


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## Stan Lee (Jun 3, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> and Mashima and Kubo don't?
> 
> I say Mashima because for all their faults Kubo and Kishi at least something that resembled a story, FT is pure fan service at this point



I don't read FT. Bleach has never reached the level stupidity as Naruto. The final arc created so many glaring holes in the story and the characters acted so retarded(especially Hagoromo).



> myabe because Sakura was forced into the story by the editor?
> 
> she's practically the editor's insert, and it's disgusting how the editor wanks her in the novel



Sasuke was also the editor's insert, yet he became the protagonist.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 3, 2015)

Zero Requiem said:


> I don't read FT. Bleach has never reached the level stupidity as Naruto. The final arc created so many glaring holes in the story and the characters acted so retarded.



and bleach characters don't act retarded? 



> Sasuke was also the editor's insert, yet he became the protagonist.



yeah because the editors were forcing Sasuke to become the main focus ever since the the first arc

Kishi wanted to write more team 7 going on missions, the editors instead "suggest" an exam arc with Sasuke being the target of the villain

Kishi wants to expand on Kakuzu and Hidan fight, the editors tell him no, switch to Sauce

Kishi wants Sasuke to start his redemption after Itachi's death, the editors tell him no, make him more evil so that he would remain the antagonist


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## Sixpence None The Richer (Jun 3, 2015)

Hiro has 0 talent and Fairy Tail is lower than garbage. Kishi just seems to be his editors puppet, and a clueless cunt with great artistic abilities.


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## Stan Lee (Jun 3, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> and bleach characters don't act retarded?



Hagoromo and Naruto thought it was good idea to make another moon from the earth to defeat Madara. It doesn't get any dumber than that.



> yeah because the editors were forcing Sasuke to become the main focus ever since the the first arc
> 
> Kishi wanted to write more team 7 going on missions, the editors instead "suggest" an exam arc with Sasuke being the target of the villain
> 
> ...



I never heard of this one. Source?


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 3, 2015)

Zero Requiem said:


> Hagoromo and Naruto thought it was good idea to make another moon from the earth to defeat Madara. It doesn't get any dumber than that.



it was the only previously established way for them to defeat Madara



> I never heard of this one. Source?



it's quite an old interview that I wouldn't be able to find right now

but it basically says that Sasuke going full "Darkness" was a last minute decision by the board

maybe someone will help me and provide the link to it


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## Silver Fang (Jun 3, 2015)

Well, far as manga goes, I got back into *Naruto*, and watched the anime over. I prefer that to *Bleach*.

Kubo and Kishi are both bad when it comes to bias. 

 But still, at the end,  I prefer *Naruto*. if I had to rewatch, or read one of them, that's be my bet. Not to say the Sasuke/Uchiha focus wasn't annoying. But bleach just bores me now. it's only a select few characters I like, and they don't appear much. May be why I like them, because Kubo hasn't shown them enough to ruin them, too badly....yet.


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## Stan Lee (Jun 3, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> it was the only previously established way for them to defeat Madara



No it wasn't. Remember how they defeated Obito? Sasuke single handily cut Madara in half, so they could have tried pulling the tailed beast back out. Destroying a huge chunk of the world was unnecessarily.


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## Alkaid (Jun 3, 2015)

Is there a mangaka lazier than Kubo?


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## N120 (Jun 3, 2015)

Kubo. I tried watching bleach. It was slow to pick up and the best arc was the rescue arc. Everything else is a rerun of the same arc with different villains and more asspulls.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 3, 2015)

Zero Requiem said:


> No it wasn't. Remember how they defeated Obito? Sasuke single handily cut Madara in half, so they could have done it again.



Obito got TNJed that is why that method worked

and anyway Juudara >>>> Juubito

and cutting Madara does jack shit because he can still perfectly move and regenerate

it was explicitly stated that Juudara reached Kaguya level and the only way to defeat him is to use the yin/yang seal, just like with her

and really a set up itself where the protags are forced into a situation, where the only way to defeat the villain and save the worldz is to risk casualties, is actually quite good


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## Stan Lee (Jun 3, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> Obito got TNJed that is why that method worked
> 
> and anyway Juudara >>>> Juubito
> 
> and cutting Madara does jack shit because he can still perfectly move and regenerate



Oh they could have overpowered him together. They were kicking the shit out of him. Naruto wasn't even using his fox avatar. Hell, Naruto could have done it right after Gai wrecked him. Just go all out on him while he was weakened. 



> *it was explicitly stated that Juudara reached Kaguya level* and the only way to defeat him is to use the yin/yang seal, just like with her



Actually it was stated Madara was_ trying_ to reached Kaguya's level. Sasuke said she was on a whole level than Madara. This was event by her truth seeking ball.



> and really a set up itself where the protags are forced into a situation, where the only way to defeat the villain and save the worldz is to risk casualties, is actually quite good



Its not good because Naruto had zero problem doing it. Didn't even give it a second thought. This is the same guy that wasted chakra on a dying Obito when the world is in danger.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 3, 2015)

Zero Requiem said:


> Oh they could have overpowered him together. They were kicking the shit out of him. Naruto wasn't even using his fox avatar. Hell, Naruto could have done it right after Gai wrecked him. Just go all out on him while he was weakened.



they were

before he powered up

after he used IT and got pretty confident that he can handle them no problem



> Actually it was stated that Kaguya was on a whole level than Madara. As event by her truth seeking ball.



over all yes

but what I meant more was among the lines of Madara reaching immortality of her level

should have specified that



> Its not good because Naruto had zero problem doing it. Didn't even give it a second thought. This is the same guy that wasted chakra on a dying Obito when the world is in danger.



I said set up itself was good, not the execution

the fact that Kishi knew that in the end Kaguya will appear and her power will be teleporting to other planets, where CT can be used safely, so he didn't bother with moral dilemmas doesn't change that


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## Tapion (Jun 3, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> Is there a mangaka lazier than Kubo?



*Cough* The guy that's playing Dragon Quest *Cough*


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## Platypus (Jun 3, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> Is there a mangaka lazier than Kubo?


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## RBL (Jun 3, 2015)

Togashi is forgiven because HXH is the best shonen ever created (along with DB AND YYH  )

ON TOPIC: Kishi ofc,  ever since his first editor left him, the story became uber shit, i'm sure enough kishi is a puppet of his editors, all the good things he did in part 1 , became no more than shit in the second part of the manga, kishi sucks, so does his story.


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## Mider T (Jun 3, 2015)

Authors like Oda, who've given us almost 2 straight decades of pure unadulterated shit time after time.


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## Mikon (Jun 3, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> Togashi is forgiven because HXH is the best shonen ever created (along with DB AND YYH  )
> 
> ON TOPIC: Kishi ofc,  ever since his first editor left him, the story became uber shit, i'm sure enough kishi is a puppet of his editors, all the good things he did in part 1 , became no more than shit in the second part of the manga, kishi sucks, so does his story.



I swear HXH is overrated as fuck it's not even funny anymore 
FMAB is easily on the same level of HxH, and both became bad during the latest arc in the anime
One Piece was the greatest shounen for me, but after the TS i don't even know what to except any more


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## RBL (Jun 3, 2015)

Mikon said:


> I swear HXH is overrated as fuck it's not even funny anymore
> FMAB is easily on the same level of HxH, and both became bad during the latest arc in the anime
> One Piece was the greatest shounen for me, but after the TS i don't even know what to except any more



nah, the chimera ant arc is top as well, i really enjoyed it tbh, and it had very good momments, 

i agree yorkcity is better, but chimera arc ant is easily the second best one.

hxh > FMA btw.

as for one piece, i haven't finished reading it yet.


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## Tragic (Jun 3, 2015)

Kishi and Kubo are farrrr farrr FAR above Hiro. I feel like that's insulting to them. There is a lot of bullshit in both Naruto and Bleach but at the very least you can justify a good amount of it. There is absolutely no justifying the bullshit that happens in FT. I never understood people that think Naruto even in it's final chapters ever reached the level of FT. FT is an entirely different level of shit. He doesn't even try to add any form of depth to anything from characters to the power system or to the story.

Also, ^ I agree. One Piece, imo, will slowly get there. 2 more arcs like all of the arcs post skip and the criticism will begin to slowly show.


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## RBL (Jun 3, 2015)

Tragic said:


> Kishi and Kubo are farrrr farrr FAR above Hiro. I feel like that's insulting to them. There is a lot of bullshit in both Naruto and Bleach but at the very least you can justify a good amount of it. There is absolutely no justifying the bullshit that happens in FT. I never understood people that think Naruto even in it's final chapters ever reached the level of FT. FT is an entirely different level of shit. He doesn't even try to add any form of depth to anything from characters to the power system or to the story.
> 
> Also, ^ I agree. One Piece, imo, will slowly get there. 2 more arcs like all of the arcs post skip and the criticism will begin to slowly show.



yeah, i'm a big naruto (specially part 2 and kishimoto) hater, but it was not FT level.

I respect people who like FT, but those who defend it are retards.


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## Mikon (Jun 3, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> nah, the chimera ant arc is top as well, i really enjoyed it tbh, and it had very good momments,
> 
> i agree yorkcity is better, but chimera arc ant is easily the second best one.
> 
> ...



Well, that's your opinion.
I don't like the Chimera ant at all, and i don't see how HxH is better than FMAB, too
so, you liked the main villian turning into a gigantic pussy? (Meruem)
The typical reasoning behind Meruem's character is his development, which i can agree, it was good, but i am really got tired from villians turning into good guys or just not being vilians at all. To not mention his way of death...Togashi just realized that he created an overpowered friend which he cannot defeat (much like Griffith ) and he just came with the bullshit of Netero's rose bomb or whatever shit it was called. Talk about a retarded death, even Pouf and Youpi got taken out by this shit. and Pitou got taken out by PU from Gon and by one fucking blow...dissapointing to the very least...the main fights were bullshit (and boring as hell), Pouf and Youpi's moans were retarded as hell, (and it came to a point which i was really doubting myself as to why i keep watching the episode, felt more like a Gintama parody episode) The pacing for the arc was very slow and Togashi tried to build so much suspense and then we got that anti climatic climax...the only thing that got me by surprise and i liked about that arc was Kite's death, it's really hyped Pitou's power and such, but oh well, i can go on forever and as you can tell, i don't like this arc at all, but i can agree that it's atleast not Naruto/Bleach war arcs level


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## RBL (Jun 3, 2015)

Mikon said:


> Well, that's your opinion.
> I don't like the Chimera ant at all, and i don't see how HxH is better than FMAB, too
> so, you liked the main villian turning into a gigantic pussy? (Meruem)
> The typical reasoning behind Meruem's character is his development, which i can agree, it was good, but i am really got tired from villians turning into good guys or just not being vilians at all. To not mention his way of death...Togashi just realized that he created an overpowered friend which he cannot defeat (much like Griffith ) and he just came with the bullshit of Netero's rose bomb or whatever shit it was called. Talk about a retarded death, even Pouf and Youpi got taken out by this shit. and Pitou got taken out by PU from Gon and by one fucking blow...dissapointing to the very least...the main fights were bullshit (and boring as hell), Pouf and Youpi's moans were retarded as hell, (and it came to a point which i was really doubting myself as to why i keep watching the episode, felt more like a Gintama parody episode) The pacing for the arc was very slow and Togashi tried to build so much suspense and then we got that anti climatic climax...the only thing that got me by surprise and i liked about that arc was Kite's death, it's really hyped Pitou's power and such, but oh well, i can go on forever and as you can tell, i don't like this arc at all, but i can agree that it's atleast not Naruto/Bleach war arcs level



Well the netero vs meruem fight was kind of cool tbh, the pacing was slow indeed, but meruem's development and defeat was not shit at all, u make it sound like if it was very mainstream (hxh is not the typical battle shonen, villains or oponnents can actually be defeated by weaker oponnents)
I agree  with you tho that the Gon vs Pitou fight was kind of overrated and i did not like it that much, nor the gon x kite friendship.

but the chimera ant arc Was not that bad, it is a polemic arc tho


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## Mikon (Jun 3, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> Well the netero vs meruem fight was kind of cool tbh, the pacing was slow indeed, but meruem's development and defeat was not shit at all, u make it sound like if it was very mainstream (hxh is not the typical battle shonen, villains or oponnents can actually be defeated by weaker oponnents)
> I agree  with you tho that the Gon vs Pitou fight was kind of overrated and i did not like it that much, nor the gon x kite friendship.
> 
> but the chimera ant arc Was not that bad, it is a polemic arc tho



I consider Pitou's defeat on the same level of Ulquoirra's defeat from Hollow Ichigo, it was generic and typical as hell
and almost any shounen got those kind of things...did you forget about Luffy defeating Crocodile? or Shikamaru defeating Hidan? I really don't see any reason to label HxH as the greatest among the greatest in regard for battle shounens, it's really overrated..welp, that's my opinion.


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## Deana (Jun 4, 2015)

Kubo gets my vote. He has too many damn characters and just keeps creating more.


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## Raidoton (Jun 4, 2015)

The only people hating Kishi more than Hiro never read Fairy Tail I guess, or are teenage boys


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## Nathan Copeland (Jun 4, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> Is there a mangaka lazier than Kubo?



only the chosen ones can understand bleach


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## Platypus (Jun 4, 2015)

Without Kubo we wouldn't have this:




Someone make an emote out of this pls


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## Mikon (Jun 4, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Yay another episode of "Hate the guys we normally jerk to"!



I don't hate anything, and in fact, Naruto is my favorite manga 
(mainly because of Itachi)



Platypus said:


>



I swear that when i read this Naruto chapter i got reminded of that Bleach chapter, lol


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## Shakar (Jun 4, 2015)

Kishimoto is an absolute hack who can't write a good character for shit- every good idea he has he manages to ruin, like a reverse King Midas. Kubo isn't stellar but at least I have fun reading Bleach. Mashima is flat out mediocre.


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## arjijon (Jun 4, 2015)

>Thinks masashi was ever not utter dog shit

>Implied was ever better than Kubo


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## Source (Jun 4, 2015)

Hiro.

Don't care which is the better of Blech and Nardo. Both are shit, but I simply prefer Naruto because...



Alkaid said:


> Bleach is boring as fuck



...of this.  As laughably bad as it's been for most of it's run Naruto hasn't bored me as much as Bleach currently does.


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## RBL (Jun 4, 2015)

Mikon said:


> I don't hate anything, and in fact, Naruto is my favorite manga
> (mainly because of Itachi)
> 
> 
> ...



i can't believe you have naruto as your fav manga, when you've got other shonens like OP,HXH  or mangas like Berserk, vagabond, and i'm sure you have read them


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## Rokudaime (Jun 4, 2015)

People actually put Mashima higher than Kishimoto? Really?


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## Mikon (Jun 4, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> i can't believe you have naruto as your fav manga, when you've got other shonens like OP,HXH  or mangas like Berserk, vagabond, and i'm sure you have read them



Well, my favorite arc of all time is the Hunt for Itachi arc, (the Golden Age arc in Berserk comes second, though) and my favorite character is Itachi, so that's mainly the reason why i like the manga so much, but belive me, i know how bad the War arc is and i don't like almost anything after the Pain Invasion arc.

EDIT:

oh and One Piece + Berserk are my 2nd/3rd favorite manga (well, it's not that both of them are in the same level anymore, Berserk and One piece got quite bad)


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## Yoona (Jun 4, 2015)

Kishi . Part 1 wasnt even all that great despite it being the better area of the series. I dont like his characterization nor how he just pulls things out of nowhere.

I enjoyed Bleach a lot more than Naruto. I have no interest in Fairytail, HxH or most other shonen in general.


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## RBL (Jun 4, 2015)

Mikon said:


> Well, my favorite arc of all time is the Hunt for Itachi arc, (the Golden Age arc in Berserk comes second, though) and my favorite character is Itachi, so that's mainly the reason why i like the manga so much, but belive me, i know how bad the War arc is and i don't like almost anything after the Pain Invasion arc.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> oh and One Piece + Berserk are my 2nd/3rd favorite manga (well, it's not that both of them are in the same level anymore, Berserk and One piece got quite bad)



berserk is still enioyable even if it doesn't have the quality of the first 2 arcs.

Rock Lee is my favorite character (EVER) and i don't even like naruto's manga  but i guess it's a matter of opinion.

I'm togashi's biggest fanboy tho


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## Mikon (Jun 4, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> berserk is still enioyable even if it doesn't have the quality of the first 2 arcs.
> 
> Rock Lee is my favorite character (EVER) and i don't even like naruto's manga  but i guess it's a matter of opinion.
> 
> I'm togashi's biggest fanboy tho



Meh. I really don't know what to exepct from shounen authors anymore.
Bleach was what got me into this media and Kubo dissapointed me big time.
Naruto is still my favorite manga but Kishi destroyed 99% of his manga 
FMAB was really interesting, but then we came to the second coming of Aizen (dat Father villian) and that anti climatic climax with an OP villian and a too much of a happy ending
and then when i started HxH (2011), it was great, i saw from where Kishi got some ideas and i thought that Togashi is an amazing writer, different from the others, but then the Chimera Ant arc came and destroyed my hype from that series, too.

Rock Lee is probably my favorite rookie from part 1, his backstory and fighting style were great.
I almost cried when he tried to stand up against Gaara even after his loss


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## Bruce Wayne (Jun 4, 2015)

Shakar said:


> Kishimoto is an absolute hack who can't write a good character for shit- every good idea he has he manages to ruin, like a reverse King Midas. Kubo isn't stellar but at least I have fun reading Bleach. Mashima is flat out mediocre.



People read Bleach for fun?


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jun 4, 2015)

Kishimoto _by far_.

I could write a 10,000 word essay on the subject and still have lots that I couldn't cover. It got _that bad_. 

At least Kubo can be intriguing and generally does reference back to things he himself brought up or created. Mashima seems to revel in the fact that he's a Troll who doesn't give a shit.


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## Akiretsu (Jun 4, 2015)

Haters gonna Hate on my boy Kishi. The Manga really isn't even as bad as you guys try to make it seem. 

Hiro is the worst. Kubo is the middle man here, *Kishi is the best Mangaka in this thread. Even the japanese know this. *


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## Alkaid (Jun 4, 2015)

Oh my god lol people putting Hiro and Kubo above Kishi. Bleach is the most boring manga I've ever read. It's so boring, the anime got cancelled. I've never heard of this happening to a popular mainstream manga before. It didn't even run out of material to cover, it's ratings were just that bad. 

And Fairy Tail is no better. Erza Power of Friendship Scarlet is absurd.

The only conclusion I can come to is that there are some fans of characters that got marginalized in Naruto, and they've been mad ever since.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 4, 2015)

Had to drop fairy tail it got so stupid and boring. Stop during the GMG, tried to do it again during that demon arc and had to leave and never look back so terrible.

I like naruto more than bleach tho i like bleach too. Naruto got more high moments and better high moments. Bleach got less terrible low moments than naruto but the high moments don't affect me nearly as much.


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## RBL (Jun 4, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> Oh my god lol people putting Hiro and Kubo above Kishi. Bleach is the most boring manga I've ever read. It's so boring, the anime got cancelled. I've never heard of this happening to a popular mainstream manga before. It didn't even run out of material to cover, it's ratings were just that bad.
> 
> And Fairy Tail is no better. Erza Power of Friendship Scarlet is absurd.
> 
> The only conclusion I can come to is that there are some fans of characters that got marginalized in Naruto, and they've been mad ever since.



you are 90% right

but, naruto is garbage as well, a better garbage compared to the other garbages, but still garbage


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## Alkaid (Jun 4, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> you are 90% right
> 
> but, naruto is garbage as well, a better garbage compared to the other garbages, but still garbage



I never said it wasn't garbage. I only said that people who were saying Kishi is worst among the trio to be disingenuous, spited fans.


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## Arceus The Great (Jun 5, 2015)

Kishi by far! Nuff said!


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## Arcana (Jun 5, 2015)

comparing nardo to FT 

is like comparing the worst nba player of all time to a child trying out basketball

at least he's somewhat knows what he's doing


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## Nathan Copeland (Jun 5, 2015)

lets be real. out of all three. kishi insulted our intelligence the most


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 5, 2015)

Hate ? Why would I hate those guys anyway ?


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## Catalyst75 (Jun 5, 2015)

Nathan Copeland said:


> lets be real. out of all three. kishi insulted our intelligence the most



Clearly you have never read Fairy Tail.  At times, it is like Mashima assumes that his readers do not have intelligence, based on how he handles all of his fights *IN THE EXACT SAME MANNER.*  What about recently, where he introduced the physical manifestation of one of the eighteen Battle Gods of Yakuma *JUST TO HAVE NATSU ONE-SHOT IT?*

In the case of Naruto, at least there is an underlying purpose and moral to what he does.  Hiro Mashima has none of that, as it is only the same NAKAMA POWWWAAAAAHH spiel over and over *andoverandoverandoverandoverandoverandover AGAIN!*


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## Shakar (Jun 5, 2015)

Bruce Wayne said:


> People read Bleach for fun?


And you read Naruto for fun? 



Arcana said:


> comparing nardo to FT
> 
> is like comparing the worst nba player of all time to a child trying out basketball
> 
> at least he's somewhat knows what he's doing


Starts out appearing as a praise but....

Well played.


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## Mikon (Jun 5, 2015)

I really don't know how someone can come up with so many good ideas and then just ruin them all...


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## Nathan Copeland (Jun 5, 2015)

Catalyst75 said:


> Clearly you have never read Fairy Tail.  At times, it is like Mashima assumes that his readers do not have intelligence, based on how he handles all of his fights *IN THE EXACT SAME MANNER.*  What about recently, where he introduced the physical manifestation of one of the eighteen Battle Gods of Yakuma *JUST TO HAVE NATSU ONE-SHOT IT?*
> 
> In the case of Naruto, at least there is an underlying purpose and moral to what he does.  Hiro Mashima has none of that, as it is only the same NAKAMA POWWWAAAAAHH spiel over and over *andoverandoverandoverandoverandoverandover AGAIN!*



Obito died, came back to life, possessed kakashi and gave him Perfect Susanoo.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 5, 2015)

Nathan Copeland said:


> Obito died, came back to life, possessed kakashi and gave him Perfect Susanoo.



which isn't really different from Edo tensei mechanics if you think about it


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## Uraharа (Jun 5, 2015)

Kishi is overall the best of the 3


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## migoreng (Jun 5, 2015)

None of the three are particularly better than the others imo. They all fall short in different places. Im gonna go with kishi since the mistakes he made were the gravest.

With bleach the main problem people have by far, at least for the past years is the pacing. for some reason people hardly ever talk about any of the actual, glaring million and one problems the series has and just focus on that so when your main problem with a series can be solved by simply being patient then I don't really see how its such a big deal tbh.

With fairy tail Mashima kinda ruins everything he creates on the small scale and kinda sacrifices certain aspects for fanservice and (failed) badassery.

But with kishi he had something good then he sorta shat on his own work. You can't unretcon your series the next chapter whereas you can increase the amount of content in each chapter or make sure the next villain doesn't get done dirty. 

I can't choose between which writer i think is the worst because like i said i think they've all had their own stumbles but kishi's mistakes have been the biggest and had the greatest consequences on his series and his fans. the things he says in his interviews haven't helped too much either.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jun 5, 2015)

The point people miss about people putting Kubo or Mashima over Kishimoto is this.

Kishimoto was, at one point, very good. But the crap he put out there he probably truly believes is good and acceptable.

Kubo seems to enjoy Trolling his readers and Bleach hit its peak and burned out with the Soul Society Arc a lot of people would agree.

Mashima seemed to reach a certain point before realising people would throw money at him regardless and did whatever the hell he wanted. At times he knowingly and consciously Trolls his audience.

The difference here is that Kishimoto never gave the impression of knowingly Trolling hid audience - it was just _crap_.


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## Milliardo (Jun 5, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> which isn't really different from Edo tensei mechanics if you think about it



except the soul calls itself back. 


maybe kishi should have made a ghost manga.


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## Kira124 (Jun 5, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> It didn't even run out of material to cover .



wtf r u talking about , last episode of bleach was released 27 march 2012 and covered until chapter 479 and chapter 486 was released 28 march 2012 so how it didn't run out of material ?  and bleach anime cover 4 chapters per episode


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## Rokudaime (Jun 6, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> you are 90% right
> 
> but, naruto is garbage as well, a better garbage compared to the other garbages, but still garbage



Well duh, this is the purpose of the thread.


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## Bishamon (Jun 6, 2015)

Kishimoto made stuff I enjoyed at least at one point in his life, a fairly substancial amount even if it faded away behind all his crap

Kubo made about 2 or 3 things that I can tolerate and about 10 minutes of story that I could follow

and everything about Fairy Tail is shit


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## Platypus (Jun 6, 2015)

Kira124 said:


> wtf r u talking about , last episode of bleach was released 27 march 2012 and covered until chapter 479 and chapter 486 was released 28 march 2012 so how it didn't run out of material ?  and bleach anime cover 4 chapters per episode



No, the ratings were just *that* bad. Otherwise they would've inserted *yet* another filler arc and continued canon material after that. But I wouldn't put the blame entirely on Kubo, but also on the atrocious Studio Pierrot as well. Although the times of Bleach manga being top 3 or even top 5 Shounen Jump are long over. I think it's barely top 15 or 20 at the moment.


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## Romanticide (Jun 6, 2015)

I hate Kishitmoney more. Kubo and Mashima actually treat their female characters better and don't call them terrible for wanting to move on from a crush they had at 12 years old.


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## Silver Fang (Jun 6, 2015)

Romanticide said:


> I hate Kishitmoney more. Kubo and Mashima actually treat their female characters better and don't call them terrible for wanting to move on from a crush they had at 12 years old.



That's not Kishi. That's Japanese culture. Confessions of love are serious there, and you don't openly confess love to someone, then start going off with someone else before getting a solid answer from the person you confessed to. I think, to be blunt, that's one of the Japanese version of a slut. 

It's understandable why he said that. Going on culture. Then also, didn't he say that when it came to pairing her up with *Naruto*? Like he was considering it, but then decided against it because it'd make Sakura horrible that she fell for Naruto. So, the confession. Plus, it would make Sakura come off as shallow. She liked Sasuke, the coolest and hottest guy in class. She considers Naruto a joke. The TS happens. Sasuke has left, now all of a sudden Naruto is stronger and becomes a village hero, NOW Sakura wants him. Makes it seem like she just goes for whatever guy is popular at the time. Again, that's if this was the part when he was talking about how he had considered pairing her with Naruto

I don't care for SasuSaku, and think Kishi could have written it *MUCH *better. But I can understand his comment. Sadly, due to his lack of some kind of positive development for SasuSaku, Sakura was written into a corner either way. She sticks with her feelings for Sasuke, and to some fans, it makes her seem pathetic and like the Joker's battered girlfriend. But, if he has her get over Sasuke, then go for Naruto, it makes her look like a groupie that loves whatever man everyone else loves.


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## Romanticide (Jun 6, 2015)

IDGAF about culture. What he said and wrote was still horrible.


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## Silver Fang (Jun 6, 2015)

Romanticide said:


> IDGAF about culture. What he said and wrote was still horrible.



Kubo is the same way though. Orihime doesn't seem to have gotten over Ichigo yet. Only 15, and vowing to love him for 5 lifetimes, and is the ultimate DID. She's worse than Sakura ever was. Then she goes to his house. Later in her room, she's imagining him is a suit and being romatic toward her while she gushes and rolls around on her flour fantasizing about him.

Even Hinata wasn't as bad as Orihime. I hate Lenalee in DGM, but she was better than Orihime. Orihime is horrible.

Then ther'es what he did to Unhoana. Supposed to be an ultimate badass and killer. She was basically there to hype Zaraki, which he didn't need more of.

There's Aizen's abuse and mental manipulation of Momo, who had a mental breakdown afterward. 

Rukia, who spent 90% of the HM arc unconscious.

Harribel's Fraccion, who stay getting their asses kicked. Their strongest thing seems to be Allon, when they fight themselves, they don't last long.

Harribel who is cut down by her boss. Becomes Queen of HM, and spends the entire new arc chained in a basement. 

Mashiro who got tons of hits on Wonderweiss, who shrugged them off then took her down with 1 punch

Hiyori shows up to battle. She gets to kill some Gillian, and tussle with harribel before getting cleaved in half by Gin.

Rangiku.....yeah. Needs no explanation

Jackie, the Fullbringer, just got a power-up, and Renji takes her down with 1 hit of the hilt of his weapon.

Kubo abuses the hell out of his females. he just rarely kills any.


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## Romanticide (Jun 6, 2015)

Silver Fang said:


> Kubo is the same way though. Orihime doesn't seem to have gotten over Ichigo yet. Only 15, and vowing to love him for 5 lifetimes, and is the ultimate DID. She's worse than Sakura ever was. Then she goes to his house. Later in her room, she's imagining him is a suit and being romatic toward her while she gushes and rolls around on her flour fantasizing about him.
> 
> Even Hinata wasn't as bad as Orihime. I hate Lenalee in DGM, but she was better than Orihime. Orihime is horrible.



Ichigo hasn't tried to murder her though. Or knocked her out/etc. All Sakura can do is medical jutsu and smash things.


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## Silver Fang (Jun 6, 2015)

Romanticide said:


> Ichigo hasn't tried to murder her though. Or knocked her out/etc. All Sakura can do is medical jutsu and smash things.



All Orihime can do is heal people. Anytime she's *tried *to fight, she's just gotten in the way, lacked resolve, and cried. Even crying for a _dead _Ichigo to rescue her-that man she claimed to love for 5 lives is lying dead, and all she can think about is her own safety, so she calls out for Ichigo to save her, and at that moment her own life became more important than his. Ahh, such wonderful selfless love *sarcasm*. 

She put up a bigger fight and was more pissed when Tatsuki was hurt.

Sakura smashing things is better than Orihime's pulling her punches, and crying. Then spending a chunk of the series kidnapped, and healing enemies, even if she wasn't asked or threatened to.


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## Platypus (Jun 6, 2015)

Orihime became pretty bad after the SS arc, agreed. But for all your other examples I can easily think of an example of a male character receiving the same kind of treatment. I don't think it's a 'sexist' thing, just Kubo treating some of his characters badly in general. Still, I believe Kubo handles his side characters way better than Kishi does by – you know – actually giving them some panel time every once in a while.


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## Silver Fang (Jun 6, 2015)

Platypus said:


> Orihime became pretty bad after the SS arc, agreed. But for all your other examples I can easily think of an example of a male character receiving the same kind of treatment. I don't think it's a 'sexist' thing, just Kubo treating some of his characters badly in general.



True, but Kishi is the same. He doesn't seem sexist, so much as only a select few characters get to do things, and others are just there. Both of them were bad with not giving attention to different characters, or having characters that always seem to look bad. 

People complain the women in Naruto suck. But some of the male characters got shafted as well. They complain the female's lives revolved around men. The biggest obsession of love in the manga was a man-Obito. 

Kishi definitely treated his black characters better than Kubo lol 

Otherwise, Kubo treated lots of characters badly

Black Characters
The Visordes
The Espada
The Fullbringers with those lame half-assed fights
The SR

Damn near everyone that isn't 

Ichigo
Byakuya
Zaraki

The honorable mentions for

Hitsugaya
Renji
Rukia

In the future, neliel and grimmjow may join the list. because they seem like fan-service.


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## Tapion (Jun 6, 2015)

Silver Fang said:


> Kubo is the same way though. Orihime doesn't seem to have gotten over Ichigo yet. Only 15, and vowing to love him for 5 lifetimes, and is the ultimate DID. She's worse than Sakura ever was. Then she goes to his house. Later in her room, she's imagining him is a suit and being romatic toward her while she gushes and rolls around on her flour fantasizing about him.



What's wrong with that, lmfao? Orihime's love is a healthy love. She would put herself in danger for him and Ichigo would 100% do the same, an entire arc was dedicated to Ichigo mangling his body to protect Orhime. Ichigo helped Orihime when it came to her brother and who she is now, She said this in the fullbring arc. Not getting over your crush is not the problem, It's ok to love some one even though they might or might not return those feelings. Orihime loving Ichigo is valid. 

Sakura, Loves sasuke for no reason, that's how it started out. I think you forgot how shallow her feelings towards him were (like all the other girls in part one). Then as time went on, her love became borderline obsession, Sasuke attempted to murder her, solicit her to murder Karin. That's the point where you get over someone, but she *STILL LOVES THIS GUY. SHE WOULD JUMP THROUGH HOOPS FOR THIS GUY*. The foundation of her love was as shallow as you could get. It's unhealthy. 

Ichigo has never once abused Orihime and has been abused for Orihime. Her love comes off as 'sane', in comparison to Sakura. She has no reason to get over Ichigo, it ok to be in love with someone, that was never the problem.

Hell the Gaiden has shown how shitty Sakura X Sasuke has turned out. This guy would abandon his family at the drop of a hat to be alone, That's the kind of impression I get anyway.


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## Silver Fang (Jun 6, 2015)

Tapion said:


> What's wrong with that, lmfao? Orihime's love is a healthy love. She would put herself in danger for him and Ichigo would 100% do the same, an entire arc was dedicated to Ichigo mangling his body to protect Orhime. Ichigo helped Orihime when it came to her brother and who she is now, She said this in the fullbring arc. Not getting over your crush is not the problem, It's ok to love some one even though they might or might not return those feelings. Orihime loving Ichigo is valid.
> 
> Sakura, Loves sasuke for no reason, that's how it started out. I think you forgot how shallow her feelings towards him were (like all the other girls in part one). Then as time went on, her love became borderline obsession, Sasuke attempted to murder her, solicit her to murder Karin. That's the point where you get over someone, but she *STILL LOVES THIS GUY. SHE WOULD JUMP THROUGH HOOPS FOR THIS GUY*. The foundation of her love was as shallow as you could get. It's unhealthy.
> 
> ...



Orihime's feelings for Ichigo started off shallow. Where she says she wants other girls to like him like her so they could all sit around and gush about him. Or when she fantasizes that ichigo is actually a superhero that was sent to earth. Her feelings sure as hell didn't start out deep. And I don't take her feelings seriously, since it still seems like a schoolgirl crush. it seems deep down, she wants ichigo to be her Knight in Shining armor, and rescue her. Again, her crying for a dead ichigo to save her from Ulquiorra. 

Sakura is no prize, far as character goes. But, Orihime seems pathetic in general. Sakura only seemed to regress when Sasuke was around. So yes, her feelings for Sasuke aren't written well. The pairing needs more build-op and work. 

But, for Shippuden, not counting bad anime filler, she seemed pretty solid. Her downfall came at the Kage Summit arc. All of Team 7 looked bad there, with the exception of Kakashi.


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## Tapion (Jun 6, 2015)

Silver Fang said:


> Orihime's feelings for Ichigo started off shallow. Where she says she wants other girls to like him like her so they could all sit around and gush about him. Or when she fantasizes that ichigo is actually a superhero that was sent to earth. Her feelings sure as hell didn't start out deep. And I don't take her feelings seriously, since it still seems like a schoolgirl crush. it seems deep down, she wants ichigo to be her Knight in Shining armor, and rescue her. Again, her crying for a dead ichigo to save her from Ulquiorra.



A school girl crush, that was strengthen by Ichigo who lifts the burden of her brother and went through hell to rescue her. What reason does she have to stop loving him? You fault Orihime for loving for still Loving Ichigo and I want to know why, when the reason are perfectly valid for her to. Explain why Sakura loves Sasuke.



Silver Fang said:


> Sakura is no prize, far as character goes. But, Orihime seems pathetic in general. Sakura only seemed to regress when Sasuke was around. So yes, her feelings for Sasuke aren't written well. The pairing needs more build-op and work.



The fact that She regressed horribly any time Sasuke was around shows he's unhealthy for her. In the department of romance, You cant really fault Orihime. Justify why Sakura should love Sasuke. I could care less about the characters overall, but I view Sakura lesser than Orihime just because of her interactions with Sasuke. Anything Sakura did always put her in the negative.


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## Silver Fang (Jun 6, 2015)

Tapion said:


> The fact that She regressed horribly any time Sasuke was around shows he's unhealthy for her. In the department of romance, You cant really fault Orihime. Justify why Sakura should love Sasuke. I could care less about the characters overall, but I view Sakura lesser than Orihime just because of her interactions with Sasuke.



Well it's the opposite with me. I view Orihime as the lesser character, over all. So I prefer Sakura to her. Orihime's feelings for Ichigo may seem better. But for me, that does not make her character better. She's still not a good character. And I think Sakura has developed more, and been better overall, as opposed to constantly DID, and crybaby Orihime.

And while you may not like Sasuke, least Sakura has somewhat backed up her feelings. She's tried to help Sasuke whenever she could, and tried to fight for him sometimes. Whereas Orihime is always in trouble, and does nothing but get in the way, and wait for Ichigo to save her. And in HM when he's fighting Grimmjow for her, she's terrified of him, and Nel of all people has to talk sense into her and get her to cheer him on. For a man she claimed to love for 5 lives, she shouldn't have been that scared of him when he was fighting for her. And she should have been the 1st to cheer him on, not Neliel.

So, Orihime's feelings for Ichigo don't seem like anything to brag about either. Both girls are bad in that department. Just in different ways.


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## StickaStick (Jun 6, 2015)

Why would I hate Kishi? If he wants to take his creation certain directions that's his prerogative. And no I'm not one of those ppl who feel writers owe their readers anything; especially not to someone like me (and I'd imagine the vast majority of ppl) who read the entire mange for free online.

However I do feel 'disappointment' would be an appropriate sentiment. But hate, no.


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## Tapion (Jun 6, 2015)

Silver Fang said:


> And while you may not like Sasuke, least Sakura has somewhat backed up her feelings. She's tried to help Sasuke whenever she could, and tried to fight for him sometimes. Whereas Orihime is always in trouble, and does nothing but get in the way, and wait for Ichigo to save her.



But why does she love him???? Just because? Why does She love him after He abused her? Of course she'd back up her feelings, I told you her love was borderline obsession. 

We already know Sakura would jump though hell or back for Sasuke (I pointed that out), even if he was going to kill her moments ago. This is the problem. This is why you cant say Orihime is much worse in the romance department, when sakura was itching to be in an abusive relationship before he got his Uchiha salt levels down. 



Silver Fang said:


> And in HM when he's fighting Grimmjow for her, she's terrified of him, and Nel of all people has to talk sense into her and get her to cheer him on. For a man she claimed to love for 5 lives, she shouldn't have been that scared of him when he was fighting for her. And she should have been the 1st to cheer him on, not Neliel.



Why are you questioning the validity of her love? That's not what makes her better than sakura. Its the point you keep dodging. Sasuke attempted to murder her, Genjutsu raped her, Solicit her into murdering Karin, Went missing after they got together. This is the reason I fault her, this love Obsession is very unhealthy and is pitiable. 

Overall both characters are Equally Shit, but Orihime wins because Kubo decide to fuck with her less. Where as Kishi's love Ideas backfired.


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## Silver Fang (Jun 6, 2015)

Tapion said:


> But why does she love him???? Just because? Why does She love him after He abused her? Of course she'd back up her feelings, I told you her love was borderline obsession.
> 
> We already know Sakura would jump though hell or back for Sasuke (I pointed that out), even if he was going to kill her moments ago. This is the problem. This is why you cant say Orihime is much worse in the romance department, when sakura was itching to be in an abusive relationship before he got his Uchiha salt levels down.
> 
> Why are you questioning the validity of her love? That's not what makes her better than sakura. Its the point you keep dodging. Sasuke attempted to murder her, Genjutsu raped her, Solicit her into murdering Karin, Went missing after they got together. This is the reason I fault her, this love Obsession is very unhealthy and is pitiable.



And as I said, sure ichigo is a better guy. But I still see Orihime's feelings as a crush. I didn't take SasuSaku seriously either. But Kishi has made it canon. So I just have to accept it. But just like I didn't take Sakura's feelings seriously, I don't take Orihime's feelings seriously either. Chances are, Kubo will make IchiHime canon probably. 

I never said Orihime's love for Ichigo was worse. I mean Orihime is worse, to me, as an overall character. her personality, her lack of resolve, her constant crying, her lack of fighting ability.  The only thing she has over Sakura is liking a more decent guy. But everything else, i would say Sakura wins.

So I am not talking pairing wars of IchiHime vs. SasuSaku.  I think they both suck. Bot far as character themselves, I do find Sakura > Orihime.


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## Tapion (Jun 6, 2015)

Silver Fang said:


> The only thing she has over Sakura is liking a more decent guy. But everything else, i would say Sakura wins.



I would agree with you here, If Sakura's character didn't revolve around liking the 'lesser Guy'.  

Why does sasuke even like her?


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## Silver Fang (Jun 6, 2015)

Tapion said:


> I would agree with you here, If Sakura's character didn't revolve around liking the 'lesser Guy'.
> 
> Why does sasuke even like her?



We will never know. Maybe he liked her intellect. She was supposed to be very smart-one of the few Genin that knew the answers to the Chunin test and didn't need to cheat. Along with Hinata 

So I am not crazy about SasuSaku. If you want more in depth views, you'd have to ask the fans. Since Kishi has made it canon, and given comments about Sasuke loving Sakura, I guess the fans were actually right. Kishi just didn't execute it well enough for it to be obvious, thus only some true die-hard fans would actually notice and be able to point things out. 

So I say Kishi and Kubo are evenly bad with pairings. But they're men, writing a manga targeted at boys. So, no shock love and sex won't be focused on much. But far as the stories they have written, I enjoyed *Naruto *more than *Bleach*. The Gaiden isn't popular it seems. But I am enjoying it. I like seeing a bit more of the story, and look forward to the movie. Can't say that for *Bleach*.


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## Tapion (Jun 6, 2015)

Sasuke tells her to fuck off and that she's annoying multiple times 

forget it


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## Silver Fang (Jun 6, 2015)

Tapion said:


> Sasuke tells her to fuck off and that she's annoying multiple times
> 
> forget it



I think an interview, he also said Sakura is the one person Sasuke would never physically hurt. Make of that what you will. lol


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## Tapion (Jun 6, 2015)

Silver Fang said:


> I think an interview, he also said Sakura is the one person Sasuke would never physically hurt. Make of that what you will. lol



Is that why Sasuke opts for mental abuse/trauma? 




*Spoiler*: __ 








Boyfriend material.


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## Alita (Jun 6, 2015)

Kishi is massively better than both kubo and mashima combined.


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## Tapion (Jun 6, 2015)

That's not saying a lot, if that were the case actually.


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## Alita (Jun 6, 2015)

It's not saying a lot that's true. But the point I'm getting at is that he shouldn't be compared to them. They ain't on his level .


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## Lucy75 (Jun 6, 2015)

Kishi wrote a masterpiece, Mashima wrote something terrible and something mediocre, and kubo wrote stuff worse than horse shit . Even the Japanese know naruto is godly compared to the other two considering all the sales the naruto manga got.

Overalll...

Slam Dunk>/=Cowboy Bebop>/=Naruto>/=Gash Bell>>HxH>Akame ga kill>>>>BAA>BNHA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hellsing>666 satan>Berserk>>elfen lied>Claymore>Inuyasha>YYH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SNK>>NNT>>>>>Sailor moon>Trigun>Black Clover>RAVE>Toriko>D Gray Man>One Piece>Fairy Tail>/=shit>>>>>>>>>Dragonball>KHR>>Hellstar remina>>>>Zombie powder>Bleach


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## Overhaul (Jun 6, 2015)

hate is a very stwong werd.


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## MarcAlmond (Jun 7, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> Kishi wrote a masterpiece, Mashima wrote something terrible and something mediocre, and kubo wrote stuff worse than horse shit . Even the Japanese know naruto is godly compared to the other two considering all the sales the naruto manga got.
> 
> Overalll...
> 
> Slam Dunk>/=Cowboy Bebop>/=Naruto>/=Gash Bell>>HxH>Akame ga kill>>>>BAA>BNHA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hellsing>666 satan>Berserk>>elfen lied>Claymore>Inuyasha>YYH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SNK>>NNT>>>>>Sailor moon>Trigun>Black Clover>RAVE>Toriko>D Gray Man>One Piece>Fairy Tail>/=shit>>>>>>>>>Dragonball>KHR>>Hellstar remina>>>>Zombie powder>Bleach


How can somebody have such an awfull taste? Seriously, Naruto better than YYH? better than fucking Berserk? You actually put 666 Satan higher than Berserk, how is it possible? I'm really baffled, Elfen Lied higher than YYH???? Tell me you were baiting...

Bleach and Fairy Tail may be horrible shit, but Naruto is no Rurouni Kenshin (Thats a really quality shonen, along with YYH, probably THE best shonen there is)


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## RBL (Jun 7, 2015)

MarcAlmond said:


> How can somebody have such an awfull taste? Seriously, Naruto better than YYH? better than fucking Berserk? You actually put 666 Satan higher than Berserk, how is it possible? I'm really baffled, Elfen Lied higher than YYH???? Tell me you were baiting...
> 
> Bleach and Fairy Tail may be horrible shit, but Naruto is no Rurouni Kenshin (Thats a really quality shonen, along with YYH, probably THE best shonen there is)



the guy is probably just trolling.

YYH and HXH are better than naruto anyday.

i'm sure he hasn't read hxh yyh, berserk or any other of the mangas that he thinks are below Naruto overall.


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## Overhaul (Jun 7, 2015)

No way is nardo better than Hellsing.


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## Doc Mindstorm (Jun 7, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> HXH are better than naruto anyday.


Lol HxH not even a shonen it's a seinen that somehow released in jump, so by shonen criteria Naruto is better because it is actually shonen unlike HxH.


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## Alkaid (Jun 7, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> Kishi wrote a masterpiece, Mashima wrote something terrible and something mediocre, and kubo wrote stuff worse than horse shit . Even the Japanese know naruto is godly compared to the other two considering all the sales the naruto manga got.
> 
> Overalll...
> 
> Slam Dunk>/=Cowboy Bebop>/=Naruto>/=Gash Bell>>HxH>Akame ga kill>>>>BAA>BNHA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hellsing>666 satan>Berserk>>elfen lied>Claymore>Inuyasha>YYH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SNK>>NNT>>>>>Sailor moon>Trigun>Black Clover>RAVE>Toriko>D Gray Man>One Piece>Fairy Tail>/=shit>>>>>>>>>Dragonball>KHR>>Hellstar remina>>>>Zombie powder>Bleach



This list blows. Gash Bell was amazing though.


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## RBL (Jun 7, 2015)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> Lol HxH not even a shonen it's a seinen that somehow released in jump, so by shonen criteria Naruto is better because it is actually shonen unlike HxH.



Well, the guy that said naruto >berserk hxh, yyh, OP and many other mangas probably know about this, he never specified 'shonen or seinen' he just stated that naruto was better overall...





Alkaid said:


> This list blows. Gash Bell was amazing though.



zatch bell is the shit!!, wonrei and li-en


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## Xadidax (Jun 7, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> yeah because the editors were forcing Sasuke to become the main focus ever since the the first arc
> 
> Kishi wanted to write more team 7 going on missions, the editors instead "suggest" an exam arc with Sasuke being the target of the villain
> 
> ...


"When developing the original Naruto manga, Masashi Kishimoto had not initially intended to create Sasuke. After speaking with his editor about the future of the series, he was advised to create a rival character for the series' protagonist, Naruto Uzumaki, which resulted in Sasuke's creation."


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## Doc Mindstorm (Jun 8, 2015)

*Brandon Lee*, noted only because you did Yyh and HxH > Naruto (all 3 implied as shonens while HxH is not shonen de facto)


Brandon Lee said:


> Well, the guy that said naruto >berserk hxh, yyh, OP and many other mangas probably know about this, he never specified 'shonen or seinen' he just stated that naruto was better overall...


So.....? He has right to have personal taste the fact it is differs from yours doesn't make it any less credible, because your statements about berserk hxh, yyh, OP and many other mangas that are better than Naruto are just "IMO" as well.


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## arokh (Jun 8, 2015)

Here's an idea you could make like a little fa***t cafe where you could sit down and have some tea while u jerk eachother off while reading manga you hate


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## RBL (Jun 8, 2015)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> *Brandon Lee*, noted only because you did Yyh and HxH > Naruto (all 3 implied as shonens while HxH is not shonen de facto)
> 
> So.....? He has right to have personal taste the fact it is differs from yours doesn't make it any less credible, because your statements about berserk hxh, yyh, OP and many other mangas that are better than Naruto are just "IMO" as well.



the thing is the guy didn't say 'IMO' he just said 'overall' he is not giving his opinion, he is stating something.

i still don't get why you say HXH is not shonen.


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## Doc Mindstorm (Jun 9, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> the thing is the guy didn't say 'IMO' he just said 'overall' he is not giving his opinion, he is stating something.
> 
> i still don't get why you say HXH is not shonen.


Ohh and when person post his message he must allways say 'IMO' to not appear on radar of yours holy inquisition of Berserk and HxH? Any message by default is 'IMO' chill out dude.

And about HxH, well considering you like Berserk for you even "Corpse Party" must be romantic comedy.


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## FrozenFeathers (Jun 9, 2015)

Kishi: he wrote something awesome, build up great characters, and in the war arc you see all degenerate to garbage. The good part about the war was that it ended.

Now we get this. Kishi manages to surpass his own writing in the war arc.

Kubo: At this point everyone should know that Bleach's plot basically goes in circles. It was great in the SS arc and Kubo ran out of ideas. But he thing about Bleach is that it never tries to be an epic sophisticated story. 
It nver tries to come up with set pieces that it's own plot cannot handle(like Kaguya and Juubi) it never tries to create complicated political interactions and turns lame(Dresrossa plotcage)  It knows it's place as being a battle manga and in that regard it out-performs Naruto(at least the war arc) and sometimes EVEN ONE PIECE.

Mashima: Never took FT seriously, I laughed when 'because she is Erza" happened.


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## FrozenFeathers (Jun 9, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> Slam Dunk>/=Cowboy Bebop>/=Naruto>/=Gash Bell>>HxH>Akame ga kill>>>>BAA>BNHA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hellsing>666 satan>Berserk>>elfen lied>Claymore>Inuyasha>YYH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SNK>>NNT>>>>>Sailor moon>Trigun>Black Clover>RAVE>Toriko>D Gray Man>One Piece>Fairy Tail>/=shit>>>>>>>>>Dragonball>KHR>>Hellstar remina>>>>Zombie powder>Bleach



So someone thinks Elven laid is better than Toriko. Funny stuff.
Then again I have seen people that think Freezing is better than Naruto.


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## Mikon (Jun 9, 2015)

My favorite things about the manga are Jiraiya's death and the truth about Itachi 
Never found something that i liked more than these things (closest thing being Griffith being a douche )


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## Mikon (Jul 22, 2015)

Bleach was what got me into anime in general
It does have a nostalgic value (for me atleast) but it's pretty shit :/
fights are corny, characters are 1 dimensional, bland people (with some 2 dimensional, also boring characters)


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## Kellogem (Jul 22, 2015)

once Naruto was good, before turned to utter shit, so I "hate" (more like pissed at, or hold a grudge against) Kishimoto more.

I was never a big Bleach fan, so when its bad it bothers me less.. even though its fucking boring nowadays, and bad, there is still stuff in it that holds my interest every now and then, while I dont remember when was the last time I was giving a crap about Nardo while reading it - maybe like 5 years ago? I was just skimming through the chapters of the War arc to see how bad it can get and so I can say I read the manga after it ended.

so in quality overall: Naruto > Bleach, but Im pissed at Kishimoto more.

have to say, Kubo is treating his side characters and woman a bit better than Kubo, at least throwing a bone at them every now and then, even if he also have a tendency to abuse them for the hell of it, at least they have something resembling a role. while Kishi threw his side characters under the bus just to create more new side characters he can threw under the bus (Sai, Yamamoto, Taka, the irrelevant black people from Kumo). it feels like he had no idea what he was doing in the end and come up with more bullshit as he went. 

sometimes I regret not reading FT, it sounds like hilariously bad... but maybe only the reactions of people talking shit about it, and reading it wouldnt be hilarious, just bad.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Jul 22, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> Kishi wrote a masterpiece, Mashima wrote something terrible and something mediocre, and kubo wrote stuff worse than horse shit . Even the Japanese know naruto is godly compared to the other two considering all the sales the naruto manga got.
> 
> Overalll...
> 
> Slam Dunk>/=Cowboy Bebop>/=Naruto>/=Gash Bell>>HxH>Akame ga kill>>>>BAA>BNHA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hellsing>666 satan>Berserk>>elfen lied>Claymore>Inuyasha>YYH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SNK>>NNT>>>>>Sailor moon>Trigun>Black Clover>RAVE>Toriko>D Gray Man>One Piece>Fairy Tail>/=shit>>>>>>>>>Dragonball>KHR>>Hellstar remina>>>>Zombie powder>Bleach



jesus fucking christ


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## Vandal Savage (Jul 22, 2015)

Kishimoto has about 6-7 years of good material and the rest is garbage.
Kubo has about 3 years of good material and then the rest is garbage.
Mashima has about 2 years of good material (this is being generous) and then the rest is garbage.

So that is just about how I'd rank them. Kishimoto clearly had the biggest fall from grace but he never fell so low that he hit Mashima's level of awfulness. He also had the longest run of quality chapters so he comes out on top for me. Kubo has reached Mashima's level of awfulness with certain events but he doesn't consistently stay there so he is next. Fairy Tail mode Mashima is about as garbage as it gets when it comes to the medium.


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## Gunners (Jul 22, 2015)

Authors like Hiro. 

Bleach and Naruto started off on the right path and were good for a number of years. I attribute the decline in quality to them losing motivation along the way which is understandable: their schedule remained the same but their lives changed (family and age). Whether people want to admit it or not, they displayed the ability to tell an engaging story before things fucked up. 

Fairy Tail has been a complete mess from the very beginning and it has been that way due to Hiro's preference of mindless fan service over plot progression.


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## Tenma (Jul 22, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> Kishi wrote a masterpiece, Mashima wrote something terrible and something mediocre, and kubo wrote stuff worse than horse shit . Even the Japanese know naruto is godly compared to the other two considering all the sales the naruto manga got.
> 
> Overalll...
> 
> Slam Dunk>/=Cowboy Bebop>/=Naruto>/=Gash Bell>>HxH>Akame ga kill>>>>BAA>BNHA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hellsing>666 satan>Berserk>>elfen lied>Claymore>Inuyasha>YYH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SNK>>NNT>>>>>Sailor moon>Trigun>Black Clover>RAVE>Toriko>D Gray Man>One Piece>Fairy Tail>/=shit>>>>>>>>>Dragonball>KHR>>Hellstar remina>>>>Zombie powder>Bleach



Naruto and AGK better than Berserk wtf is wrong with you


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## Mikon (Jul 22, 2015)

Nothing is better than Berserk on his list, tbh
One Piece is on the same level for me, though


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## Black Mirror (Jul 23, 2015)

All 3 are same.

They make a good start, catch some fans and then destroy all the hopes of their fans.

Well, you could say Hiro is the better one since he made his manga shit before ppl have grown to it too much.


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## Morglay (Jul 23, 2015)

If something is bad it is probably not emotionally stimulating enough for me to hate.


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## Patrick (Jul 23, 2015)

I dislike Kishi more. Naruto at its best was superior to Fairy Tail and Bleach at their bests but Naruto at its worst was just so much worse than even FT and Bleach's bad arcs.


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## Aldric (Jul 23, 2015)

objectively l think the worst author is kubo because even if kishimoto has reached the lowest lows and mashima is the most consistently awful bleach's popularity has always baffled me, l just don't get the appeal at all, it has always felt like a creatively bankrupt nothing story to me

naruto had tons of potential and we all know what happend to that and even fairy tail had a certain charm but bleach has always felt sterile and generic to the extreme

that being said l hate kishimoto the most fuck that shovel faced loser


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## Atlantic Storm (Jul 23, 2015)

I think Kubo and Hiro are worse than Kishimoto in that one of them seemed to completely stop caring about writing their manga well after a certain point (_Bleach_) while the other one never wrote seriously to begin with (_Fairy Tail_). Kishimoto seemed to take _Naruto_ relatively serious until the War arc, at least ? he just wasn't very good at it.

That said, even Hiro at least has good work ethic going for him. He interacts with his fans a lot through Twitter, sometimes does three chapters a week and regularly does coloured pages. You can tell he likes drawing _Fairy Tail_ and respects his fans. Kubo had none of that going for him.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 23, 2015)

Patrick said:


> I dislike Kishi more. Naruto at its best was superior to Fairy Tail and Bleach at their bests but Naruto at its worst was just so much worse than even FT and Bleach's bad arcs.





Um no.

Fairy tail worst is like two tiers worse then naruto and bleach worst.

And I will take the final war over shit bring arc anyday.


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## Amol (Jul 23, 2015)

It is depressing when you think about Naruto's potential. The setting and premise of story had tremendous potential.
I can only imagine the World Building he could have done if he had focused on other 4 Great Villages and civilians more.
He could have developed other Jinchurikies.
He could have developed side.characters more .
He could have included a Civil War.
So many wasted opportunities.
This is real problem. I actually gave shit about his story because it really could have been a Masterpiece.
Other two never had that opportunity. Their world was limited. They never promised that level of greatness.
That is why Naruto turning to shit hurts more .
I hate Kishi for that.


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## Mikon (Jul 23, 2015)

Amol said:


> It is depressing when you think about Naruto's potential. The setting and premise of story had tremendous potential.
> I can only imagine the World Building he could have done if he had focused on other 4 Great Villages and civilians more.
> He could have developed other Jinchurikies.
> He could have developed side.characters more .
> ...



I agree.
I still like the world of Naruto more than the world of One Piece
I would rather play a MMO of Naruto than any other shounen, tbh
Konoha seems like an amazing place for a starting map XD
Ame is quite epic, too
I just think that he gave up when the war started


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## Aldric (Jul 23, 2015)

naruto started smelling way before the war arc

it's been shit for about a decade


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## Vandal Savage (Jul 23, 2015)

Aldric said:


> naruto started smelling way before the war arc
> 
> it's been shit for about a decade



Completely agree but the biggest of supporters are only willing to say the war arc was at fault because it's impossible to argue that it wasn't at that point. In reality, the canary in the coal mine goes as far back as the Gaara resurrection and is followed up by the worst arc in Part two that wasn't the War or Kage Summit.


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## Mikon (Jul 24, 2015)

Meh, it's quite subjective
Sai/Sasuke arc wasn't THAT bad and full of trolling or character humiliation, it's just was boring
When they decided go after Orochimaru/Kabuto it got better, for me atleast (you guys just like to exxagerate, don't you? )


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## Amol (Jul 25, 2015)

Jetstorm said:


> Completely agree but the biggest of supporters are only willing to say the war arc was at fault because it's impossible to argue that it wasn't at that point. In reality, the canary in the coal mine goes as far back as the Gaara resurrection and is followed up by the worst arc in Part two that wasn't the War or Kage Summit.



Yeah , in general whole part 2 was written badly . War Arc was just so bad that it overshadowed other bad arcs(and that is some accomplishment).
I would say upto Pain Invasion Arc it was still readable manga(average or something)but after that it turned to abomination.
Kishi's Uchiha boner and neglect of remaining K11(or any side character for that matter) ruined the story . 


Mikon said:


> I agree.
> I still like the world of Naruto more than the world of One Piece
> I would rather play a MMO of Naruto than any other shounen, tbh
> Konoha seems like an amazing place for a starting map XD
> ...



Ah..no.
As far as World Building goes Oda is thousand times better than Kishi.
Besides Konoha, Kishi didn't develop any other village.
And even in Konoha only Team 7 was relevant to story .
World Building doesn't mean just drawing sketches of places . 
Kishi utterly failed in it.


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## Mikon (Jul 25, 2015)

Amol said:


> Yeah , in general whole part 2 was written badly . War Arc was just so bad that it overshadowed other bad arcs(and that is some accomplishment).
> I would say upto Pain Invasion Arc it was still readable manga(average or something)but after that it turned to abomination.
> Kishi's Uchiha boner and neglect of remaining K11(or any side character for that matter) ruined the story .
> 
> ...



Well, duh? 
I didn't say anything about Kishi's world building being better or even close to Oda 
I just rather be in Konoha or Ame than any of the islands in One Piece, i really like Kishi's places (from what we have seen)


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## B Rabbit (Jul 30, 2015)

I have to say 

Bleach and FT have always been awful, but I have no idea what happened to Naruto.

I love Naruto and Bleach, as they were my first but Bleach has never been well, amazing or great, just good.


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## santanico (Aug 1, 2015)

these mangaka listed are mediocre when it comes to story wise.


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## Pirao (Sep 13, 2015)

Mashima is the shittiest of the 3. Between Kubo and Kishi, both stories went to sh*t, but Naruto's good parts lasted longer plus I liked the world Kishi created more (minus Rikudou Sennin and Kaguya crap).


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## Seto Kaiba (Sep 13, 2015)

With Fairy Tail to me it seemed like, you already knew what you were getting early on. The author isn't that great but it's not like there was a massive potential in the first place. Kubo is inbetween the three because the story could be way more than it is, and he does have talent in some respects, but his major weakness in building a plot and pacing makes it suffer. I think Kishimoto is the worst because it was a classic case of biting more than one could chew so to speak. He tried to tackle matters that were just way beyond his ability to convey later on in Part II. On top of that, Naruto did have the most promising in terms of potential, and to see that squandered, especially in what were some pretty easily avoidable ways IMO, just makes him the worst in my eyes.


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## Chainwave (Sep 14, 2015)

Naruto essentially became a different manga after the Pain fight. You can actually see the artstyle become flatter, and characters becoming more cartoony. Guess Kishi couldn't make Naruto realistically solve his world's problems, so he just deflated his world and ditched all the mature themes. I wouldn't be surprised if the editors had a hand in this decision, cause I could actually see Naruto going in a completely different direction, with an unrepentant Itachi, an actual bloody war, and no aliens. 

Bleach could have been a lot better if Kubo didn't have such formulaic chapter formula. In fact that's why Kubo's flashback chapters are great, because they tell a story without having unnecessary character foci that rule entire chapter compositions, nor are the battles lengthened by each chapter being dedicated to a single often trollish turnabout. Oh well.

Fairy Tail is lol.


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## Mintaka (Sep 17, 2015)

Kishi, even if this was his editors fault.  He wrote something that I could and did care about at the time, something that could have been really good for a shounen.

We all know where that went.

Naruto is the only long term story that I regret wasting so much time on, because of just how much it depresses/angers me to think about.


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## Catamount (Oct 19, 2015)

Mikon said:


> authors that had been on the *mediocre tier* from the beginning and the trolling was there right from the start (*like Kubo* and Hiro)?
> I know that SS in Bleach is considered the best arc, but is it really that good? i *watched i*t in 2008 (and Bleach was what got me into anime in general, but then i dropped it in the Aizen vs Ichigo fight)
> What are your thoughts?



Dude...
Why would I hate something cool and amazing. Even if you personally don't get it and judge manga authors by anime.


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## Inuhanyou (Oct 20, 2015)

Mashima made a consistently great manga(Rave), and then a shitty one that coasted off of fanservice and copying elements of his previous manga(Fairy Tail)

Kishi had an initially good manga that turned shitty near the beginning of part 2 and never turned back.

Kubo's manga had a great first half, but ran out of steam after the Arrancar arc, while still sometimes displaying in small bits the flashes of brilliance i was originally attracted to. 


Out of these 3, Kishi for me is the shittiest by far.

Atleast Mashima had a proven work, he just gave up after that.

Atleast Kubo, while being the ultimate dunce of pacing and plot, actually had his characters act in a believable way.

For Kishi, he simply threw out basically everything his manga was originally based on. The character themes, the actual established plot threads and even basic common sense of the world he created. That's a big no no.


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## Veris (Oct 24, 2015)

Kubo-types. At least Kishi kept a semblance of a narrative and plotline up until the end.  

I have no idea what Bleach is supposed to be. I don't think any Kubo-like author will ever teach me.

No experience with Hiro.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 26, 2015)

> At least Kishi kept a semblance of a narrative and plotline up until the end


Are we reading the same thing?


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## Inuhanyou (Oct 26, 2015)

Veris said:


> Kubo-types.* At least Kishi kept a semblance of a narrative and plotline up until the end.  *
> 
> I have no idea what Bleach is supposed to be. I don't think any Kubo-like author will ever teach me.
> 
> No experience with Hiro.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> Kishi is like having a girlfriend that appears to be nice and then turns out to be an abusive bitch.
> 
> Kubo is like a girlfriend who you know from the start is an abusive bitch, you know what you are signing in from the start.
> 
> ...



I mean I never read or watched bleach (though I intend to) but this  opinion seems alright 

Is Bleach that bad? I've always heard ru.ours.that it was epic then very very recently ibe heard people saying it is trash


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## Cromer (Feb 9, 2016)

None of them are significant enough to warrant my hatred...indifference, maybe. But I'm not indifferent. Distaste?


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