# Hebi Sasuke vs Kisame



## JuicyG (May 23, 2018)

Generally speaking,  who is higher on the tier list


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## Ashi (May 23, 2018)

Omfg


Anyway Kisame wins


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## Isaiah13000 (May 23, 2018)

Hebi Sasuke, he is overall more versatile, has a more lethal arsenal, and can defeat Kisame in battle with Sharingan genjutsu that Kisame has no counter for.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 2


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## Stonaem (May 23, 2018)

I actually consider Hebi more well-rounded than MS, but that doesn't put him higher than Mid-Tier Akatsuki


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (May 23, 2018)

Hebi Sasuke.

His fight with Deidara suggests he is above the Mid Tier Akatsuki even while holding back. BoS Sasuke is atleast slightly stronger than  Wind Arc Naruto, who equaled or surpassed Kakashi. MS Kakashi is on the same general level as the Mid Tier Akatsuki and Gai. Hebi Sasuke is stronger than BoS Sasuke.

Hebi Sasuke is the stronger of the two.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 5


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## JuicyG (May 23, 2018)

I can agree with arguments made from both sides.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Isaiah13000 (May 23, 2018)

As @Orochimaruwantsyourbody has said, the fact that a Hebi Sasuke with no killing intent was portrayed as superior to Deidara (who I consider above Kisame) would imply that Hebi Sasuke is above mid tier Akatsuki members. Kisame also legit has no counter to Sharingan genjutsu, and no Samehada is not a proper counter. As there is no proof that Samehada is smart enough to notice Kisame is in a genjutsu and break him out. Especially before he ends up with a Chidori or katana through his heart. Kirin is also something Kisame has no counter for.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisame (May 23, 2018)

I rank Hebi Sasuke close to Orochimaru, who I rank higher than Kisame.

They might or might not land on the same tier but Hebi Sasuke has the edge.

From a narrative perspective: Sasuke was _introduced_ as kage level, absorbed Orochimaru's power and went on to face Orochimaru's superior (Sasuke knew this and had knowledge of Orochimaru's general power level). It turned out Itachi was even stronger than everybody thought rather than Sasuke being weaker than he thought himself to be (Itachi holding back, Itachi decimating Orochimaru quickly when he wasn't holding back, Itachi revealing yet another trump card when he was revived).

Itachi

Gap

Orochimaru
~
Sasuke
~
Kisame

Reactions: Like 1 | Neutral 1


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## BlackHeartedImp (May 23, 2018)

Weren't Deidara and Hebi Sasuke dead equal, despite Sasuke's elemental advantage? I seem to recall both of them being out of options at the end of their fight. Deidara went insane and suicided and Sasuke had one of the more monumental moments of plot armor in the manga save his hide. 

That's far from being "portrayed as his superior", killing intent or not.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 2 | Neutral 1


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## TruestArtXI (May 23, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Hebi Sasuke.
> 
> His fight with Deidara suggests he is above the Mid Tier Akatsuki even while holding back. BoS Sasuke is atleast slightly stronger than  Wind Arc Naruto, who equaled or surpassed Kakashi. MS Kakashi is on the same general level as the Mid Tier Akatsuki and Gai. Hebi Sasuke is stronger than BoS Sasuke.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke is the stronger of the two.


Holding back right?

Could be argued other wise after he cut down deidara making him fall onto the minefield

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Isaiah13000 (May 23, 2018)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Weren't Deidara and Hebi Sasuke dead equal, despite Sasuke's elemental advantage? I seem to recall both of them being out of options at the end of their fight. Deidara went insane and suicided and Sasuke had one of the more monumental moments of plot armor in the manga save his hide.
> 
> That's far from being "portrayed as his superior", killing intent or not.


The only reason the fight ended that way is because Sasuke chose to punch Deidara at the end of the fight instead of stab him. Sasuke also stated that even if he didn't have an elemental advantage against Deidara that he had something else (probably Kirin) that he could rely on to win him the fight. So really, Sasuke could have killed Deidara much earlier if he wanted too.


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## JuicyG (May 23, 2018)

This is all under the presumption that Deidara>=Kisame

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Buuhan (May 23, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The only reason the fight ended that way is because Sasuke chose to punch Deidara at the end of the fight instead of stab him. Sasuke also stated that even if he didn't have an elemental advantage against Deidara that he had something else (probably Kirin) that he could rely on to win him the fight. So really, Sasuke could have killed Deidara much earlier if he wanted too.


DIdnt he lose his sword earlier on?


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## Bonly (May 23, 2018)

I'd place Hebi Sasuke higher as he's better and more of a threat in general in more cases and in a fight I'd favor Sasuke


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## Ultrafragor (May 23, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> This is all under the presumption that Deidara>=Kisame



A presumption based off of Deidara blowing up the three tailed beast underwater.

Which is a matter of match ups and not power levels.


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## Buuhan (May 23, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> A presumption based off of Deidara blowing up the three tailed beast underwater.
> 
> Which is a matter of match ups and not power levels.


wasn't that filler ?


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## savior2005 (May 23, 2018)

They are both around the same tier imo. It would actually be a fun match to witness imo.


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## Troyse22 (May 23, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Generally speaking,  who is higher on the tier list



In a 1v1?

Kisame puts himself above the Sannin and Sasuke's team as of P2 (sorry you Sannin wanking mouthbreathing Autists, when P2 shows something that contradicts what happened in P1 then that feat/statement is gone and invalid)

Upon hearing about Deidara's death, Kisame sarcastically notes.... "Huh....and I thought he was one of the stronger ones". This is AFTER hearing about Sasuke killing Orochimaru, implying that losing to someone who beat Orochimaru makes you a weaker Akatsuki.

Even after hearing about how Sasuke has killed Orochimaru AND Deidara, Kisame STILL confronts Sasuke+his whole team

"Only Sasuke alone may go passed me, the rest of you are welcome to wait right here with me"
"Sasuke! Lets take him down and go in together"- Karin
"I have no interest in fighting any of you, but if you insist on going together i'll show no mercy"

Kisame very clearly holds himself above The Sannin, Sasuke or Deidara and that panel suggests he can take them on.

Portrayal wise Kisame was suggested on TWO occasions to be near, above or on equal footing with Itachi, who is>>Hebi Sasuke

"At any rate I'm proud to be your partner, the genius of the Uchiha, on the day you betray the Akatsuki, I will be entrusted with being a great step for that genius"- Kisame in Akatsuki Hiden

"I can't believe Kisame Hoshigaki the Monster of the Hidden Mist *and the man powerful enough to be paired with Itachi Uchiha* would die like this..."- Yamato on Kisames death

If Kishi didn't want them to be perfect equals, they're damn close in his eyes.

Now that portrayal is out of the way it's time for feats!



Troyse22 said:


> Now as for actual feats?
> 
> Well, Kisame was reacting to V1 and V2 blitz attempts (V1 Bee btw no diff blitzed Sasuke, not even his Sharingan could perceive Bee's speed)
> 
> ...



Kisame has tagged and bagged a not only faster opponent than Sasuke, but an overall superior opponent in EVERY way (Killer Bee)

Lets also not forget that Deidara>Hebi Sasuke and the ONLY reason Sasuke won is because of a HORRIBLE matchup on a tier list Deidara is higher than Sasuke and Kisame is higher than Deidara based on feats hype and portrayal

I love soloing threads and putting GARBAGE shitposts like this....



Bonly said:


> I'd place Hebi Sasuke higher as he's better and more of a threat in general in more cases and in a fight I'd favor Sasuke





Shark said:


> I rank Hebi Sasuke close to Orochimaru, who I rank higher than Kisame.





Isaiah13000 said:


> As @Orochimaruwantsyourbody has said, the fact that a Hebi Sasuke with no killing intent was portrayed as superior to Deidara (who I consider above Kisame) would imply that Hebi Sasuke is above mid tier Akatsuki members. Kisame also legit has no counter to Sharingan genjutsu, and no Samehada is not a proper counter. As there is no proof that Samehada is smart enough to notice Kisame is in a genjutsu and break him out. Especially before he ends up with a Chidori or katana through his heart. Kirin is also something Kisame has no counter for.





Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Hebi Sasuke.
> 
> His fight with Deidara suggests he is above the Mid Tier Akatsuki even while holding back. BoS Sasuke is atleast slightly stronger than  Wind Arc Naruto, who equaled or surpassed Kakashi. MS Kakashi is on the same general level as the Mid Tier Akatsuki and Gai. Hebi Sasuke is stronger than BoS Sasuke.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke is the stronger of the two.



TO SHAME

Can beat any of these posters in this debate, but then again half the posters I quoted just now are known to not provide any kind of substance or relevant information in their arguments, so who cares right?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Maverick04 (May 24, 2018)

Hebi Sasuke is higher unless Kisame decides to merge with Samehada and use the waterdome

Kisamehada > Hebi Sasuke > Base Kisame with Samehada


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## InfiniteHiraishin (May 24, 2018)

Hard to say whose distinctly better, but I think Hebi Sasuke is pretty damn versatile, while physically Kisame is a beast as well.

In my opinion, I’ve always had them relatively in the same ball-park, Kisame being the top of the mid-tier Akatsuki.

1v1, I could see it going either way depending on one factor: Can Sasuke land a definite genjutsu or not?


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 24, 2018)

Base Bee was taking on Taka simultaneously, and he would have wrecked Sasuke without assistance from the others. Kisame is on another level compared to Base Bee, so it should go without saying that Sasuke gets defeated with low-diff at most.

If Sasuke fights how he normally does, Kisame likely ends the fight in one hit.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Isaiah13000 (May 24, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> DIdnt he lose his sword earlier on?


I meant with a kunai.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Zero890 (May 24, 2018)

In my opinion Kisame is stronger.


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## DaVizWiz (May 24, 2018)

Kisame is stronger. He beat V2 Bee, a version of Bee that *MS Sasuke* never fought, and was* killed twice* by weaker versions of Bee.

Kisame and MS Sasuke are pretty close in power and are prime examples of Mid Kage.

Hebi Sasuke is a borderline mid kage, arguably low kage level that gets killed by Bee, Ei, and Danzo with low difficulty in those fights.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Bonly (May 24, 2018)

Maverick04 said:


> Hebi Sasuke is higher unless Kisame decides to merge with Samehada and use the waterdome
> 
> Kisamehada > Hebi Sasuke > Base Kisame with Samehada



How is fused Kisame stronger?


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## Ashi (May 24, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> Kisame is stronger. He beat V2 Bee, a version of Bee that *MS Sasuke* never fought, and was* killed twice* by weaker versions of Bee.
> 
> Kisame and MS Sasuke are pretty close in power and are prime examples of Mid Kage.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke is a borderline mid kage, arguably low kage level that gets killed by Bee, Ei, and Danzo with low difficulty in those fights.



This.

The people saying Hebi Sasuke wins are foolin themselves

At best, Sasuke gets his chakra sucked dry by Kisame in merman form

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Gohara (May 24, 2018)

Kisame wins in my opinion because he has superior portrayal, superior Chakra, and superior versatility.


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## Uchiha Madara (May 25, 2018)

Bad matchup for Kisame because of lightning vs water. Sasuke wins.

Actually, it depends. Kisame's not going to flood the area with water if he has knowledge on Sasuke, he'd instead opt for sucking him dry with Samehada. 

That being said, Kisame seemed to have superior portrayal to me. MS Sasuke needed Taka against Bee, who Kisame soloed.


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## Shazam (May 25, 2018)

Leaning towards Kisame.


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## Troyse22 (May 25, 2018)

Bonly said:


> How is fused Kisame stronger?



How is he not?

You lose a few screws in your head since the last time we talked?


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## Hi no Ishi (May 25, 2018)

These two are close in power but Sasuke would win most of the time. They would give a hard time to a similar amount of opponents and likely lose to most of the same people. 

He uses Sharingan Genjutsu a lot which is bad for Kisame at pretty much any range. 
If he starts spitting water he stands a good chance of getting shocked as it happens unless he us doing his famous Samehada hand stand and absorbing at the same time.
Also Hebi Sauce can just jump / fly away from the water if team Guy can as he showed himself to be faster than they wer against the same opponent and Deidara wasn't even tired when he encountered Sasuke unlike team Guy. 

1000 feeding sharks is Kisame's best bet but if he gets genjutsued with a creature type out he is getting eaten.


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## Troyse22 (May 25, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> These two are close in power but Sasuke would win most of the time. They would give a hard time to a similar amount of opponents and likely lose to mist if the same people.



Lose to mist?

Mist?

The thing Kisame can undoubtedly fight in?

Or wait is Kisame the only 7SOTM who can't fight in the mist 



Hi no Ishi said:


> He uses Sharingan Genjutsu a lot which is bad for Kisame at pretty much any range.



It's bad for Jiraiya as his method of Genjutsu breaking has shown to be garbage against Genjutsu as weak as finger genjutsu.

But that sure doesn't stop anyone from saying that Jiraiya curbstomps Sasuke.

Double standards equate to autism.



Hi no Ishi said:


> If he starts spitting water he stands a good chance of getting shocked as it happens unless he us doing his famous Samehada hand stand and absorbing at the same time.



Samehada would absorb anything, as it has shown the ability to absorb Raiton on panel.

And people who use the Raiton argument to counter Kisame's Suiton don't seem to understand the concept of friendly fire 



Hi no Ishi said:


> Also Hebi Sauce can just jump / fly away from the water if team Guy can as he showed himself to be faster than they wer against the same opponent and Deidara wasn't even tired when he encountered Sasuke unlike team Guy.



When Kisame is trolling...and giggling the whole time he was riding on his waves....I think we can assume he wasn't serious.

But yeah I agree Sasuke can dodge a trolling Kisame



Hi no Ishi said:


> 1000 feeding sharks is Kisame's best bet but if he gets genjutsued with a creature type out he is getting eaten.



This guy isn't Deidara k?

He knows the potency of Sharingan Genjutsu, as well as MS Genjutsu, he's going to be taking steps to avoid it, and based on Kisame's confidence that he could fight Itachi at high capacity (he doesn't suggest it's easy, but he seems confident he can fight Itachi and possibly win). If Genjutsu (which is Itachi's bread and butter) which Kisame knows about isn't enough to deter Kisame, then Sasuke's genjutsu surely isn't stopping Kisame.

Lets also not forget that in exchange for wielding Samehada's powers it continuously devours the wielders chakra, which is in fact disturbing it, possibly breaking genjutsu moments after it's applied (which is hinted in the Kurenai fight, where Kisame gets hit with Genjutsu, the next panel seconds later shows him free without any physical contact from Itachi being made evident)



Gohara said:


> Kisame wins in my opinion because he has superior portrayal, superior Chakra, and superior versatility.



This.


Kisame is portrayed as Itachi's peer at the time of his death, as well as in Akatsuki Hiden who would slaughter Hebi Sasuke.

Kisame is tiers ahead of Sasuke, this should be locked for being unbalanced tbh.


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## Buuhan (May 25, 2018)

The fight between Bee and Sasuke is a stark contrast between that which Kisame took part in. Not only was Sasuke stronger(MS vs Hebi), but he had backup in the form of a sensor/healer, brawler/healer, and swordsman. Hebi isn't winning here.


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## Trojan (May 25, 2018)

Kisame wins.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Architect (May 25, 2018)

Kisame, indeed. Kisame catches Sasuke's far more superior version together with his PS into Waterdome and drains him with Daikodan.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 25, 2018)

The logic in this thread... what is up with all the "Killer B defeated a superior version of Sasuke, while Kisame defeated Killer B, so therefore, Kisame is stronger." posts? First off, a weakened rookie MS Sasuke who just learned how to use Amaterasu *is not* superior to Hebi Sasuke. What Killer B punked was a weakened 3T Sasuke (stated to still be wounded from his fight with Itachi) who was just learning how to use the MS. It's not like Killer B defeated FKS MS Sasuke or something, which is what you people are making it sound like. Hebi Sasuke is superior to the version of Sasuke that Killer B wrecked in all aspects by a good margin, so using this logic doesn't make sense. 

Second, *the only reason *Kisame defeated Killer B is due to match-up purposes, and because Killer B held back. He did not defeat a Killer B who was going all-out or anything of that sort. So the entire "A > B > C" logic falls flat on it's face right there. The match-up advantage that he had against Killer B (who was literally wearing a cloak of chakra) is nonexistent against Hebi Sasuke too. So that wouldn't help him against Hebi Sasuke at all. No one has stated how he manages to counter Sharingan genjutsu either, so as far as I'm concerned he can't. Kisame is seriously being overestimated here, none of the reasons as to why he is superior portrayal wise makes any sense at all. It all revolves poor "A > B > C" logic that blatantly ignores all of the circumstances in all of the fights involved.

The only decent point I've seen is that Sasuke had backup from Jugo and Suigetsu, and Killer B still overcame that. But one can easily argue that CS2 Hebi Sasuke > weakened 3T Sasuke, Jugo, & Suigetsu. So even that is debatable, and can't be used as proof of Kisame's superiority either. So overall, I think the best way to determine who is superior is to compare them to each other directly, not use poor comparisons and ABC logic that ignores circumstances.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Hi no Ishi (May 25, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Lose to mist?
> 
> Mist?
> 
> ...


Lol. 
Typo clearly.

It was meant to say "most of" 

Btw is there any evidence that all swordsmen use hidden mist? 
Or just the generation who fought along side the dude who specializes in it? 

None of the others have cast it or even tried to when it would be convenient. 

It's reasonable head cannon but is there any evidence?


Troyse22 said:


> It's bad for Jiraiya as his method of Genjutsu breaking has shown to be garbage against Genjutsu as weak as finger genjutsu.
> 
> But that sure doesn't stop anyone from saying that Jiraiya curbstomps Sasuke.
> 
> Double standards equate to autism.


Ah classic Troy. 

Don't really have an argument? 
1. Whine about Jiraiya, like he is in this thread or mentioned by someone else.

2. Then call every one autistic so they know it's just another shitpost! 
This will cover ignoring the manga.

3.????

4. Profit?

In the real manga the method called Kai that Jiraiya taught Naruto is the standard genjutsu breaking method and even Itachi was impressed with his improvements in the area when it fails to put Naruto to sleep immediately like it should.

But sure let's ignore Kisame's feats against 



Troyse22 said:


> Samehada would absorb anything, as it has shown the ability to absorb Raiton on panel.
> 
> And people who use the Raiton argument to counter Kisame's Suiton don't seem to understand the concept of friendly fire


A) Absorbtion and expelling chakra are literally opposites. There is no evidence he (or anyone) can do both at once.

B) absorbing lightning is just going to stop and suck up his Suiton anyway. 

C) his Absorbtion isn't always on or an auto defense, either.

D) what the heck does friendly fire have to do with this lol?


Troyse22 said:


> When Kisame is trolling...and giggling the whole time he was riding on his waves....I think we can assume he wasn't serious.
> 
> But yeah I agree Sasuke can dodge a trolling Kisame


I love the assumption that his water comes out faster when he is not "trolling" somehow or that it would change the outcome vs a flier.

Water is mostly only dangerous to people stuck on the ground, as we see in the manga.


Troyse22 said:


> This guy isn't Deidara k?


We know. Deidara would wreck Kisame much harder due to match up.


Troyse22 said:


> He knows the potency of Sharingan Genjutsu, as well as MS Genjutsu, he's going to be taking steps to avoid it, and based on Kisame's confidence that he could fight Itachi at high capacity (he doesn't suggest it's easy, but he seems confident he can fight Itachi and possibly win). If Genjutsu (which is Itachi's bread and butter) which Kisame knows about isn't enough to deter Kisame, then Sasuke's genjutsu surely isn't stopping Kisame.


Also classic. Having knowledge on the Sharingan only helps in your head. Deidara is actually, in cannon not head cannon, trained to resist and break out we saw how well that went for him. 

Also Danzo has decades more experience with the Uchiha and  sharingan than Kisame ever will, several of his own, two of the most powerful genjutsu in existence, knowledge that his opponent has the Sharingan, and still was put under Genjutsu multiple times. 

Your head cannon has no manga basis.


Troyse22 said:


> Lets also not forget that in exchange for wielding Samehada's powers it continuously devours the wielders chakra, which is in fact disturbing it, possibly breaking genjutsu moments after it's applied (which is hinted in the Kurenai fight, where Kisame gets hit with Genjutsu, the next panel seconds later shows him free without any physical contact from Itachi being made evident)



Read 141 again. She disappears from his sight and isn't seen by him again until after Itachi beaks the genjutsu.


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## Troyse22 (May 26, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Btw is there any evidence that all swordsmen use hidden mist?
> Or just the generation who fought along side the dude who specializes in it?


Idk I don't think so

Wasn't arguing Kisame can use it anyways, but that he can fight in it.



Hi no Ishi said:


> It's reasonable head cannon but is there any evidence?



I agree, it's a reasonable assumption, just not one I go with.

If someone said the 7SOTM can all use mist I wouldn't protest too much or suggest they're wanking them because it truly is a reasonable assumption.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Ah classic Troy.
> 
> Don't really have an argument?
> 1. Whine about Jiraiya, like he is in this thread or mentioned by someone else.
> ...




Because it's true. Make a Hebi Sasuke vs Jiraiya thread and the people saying Genjutsu is a threat to Kisame and how easily it can be applied to him will suddenly be saying Jiraiya curbs Sasuke, genjutsu is no threat etc.

It's double standards and it makes this forum and its posters look retarded.



Hi no Ishi said:


> absorbing lightning is just going to stop and suck up his Suiton anyway.


Kisame controls what he and Samehada absorb, as Kisame absorbed Bees chakra inside dome multiple times and his dome was unaffected.

He also had Roshi resting on his blade for a good amount of time after being exhausted.
.
Kisame can control Samehada absorption the same way that Susanoo users can allow objects/people to pass through.



Hi no Ishi said:


> D) what the heck does friendly fire have to do with this lol?



It means whoever uses the Raiton is gonna be seriously hurt, as well as any teammates.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Also classic. Having knowledge on the Sharingan only helps in your head. Deidara is actually, in cannon not head cannon, trained to resist and break out we saw how well that went for him



Yeah, it never put him in a position where he loses, by the time Sasuke landed that punch Deidara was already exhausted.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Also Danzo has decades more experience with the Uchiha and sharingan than Kisame ever will, several of his own, two of the most powerful genjutsu in existence, knowledge that his opponent has the Sharingan, and still was put under Genjutsu multiple times.



What combat experience does Danzo have against the Uchiha...?

Kisame also has YEARS directly alongside Itachi, during that time Kisame was watching him like a hawk every step of the way due to his suspicion that Itachi was gonna betray him.

He obviously knew the potency of his genjutsu based on his reaction when he put Sasuke under Tsukuyomi.


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## Trojan (May 26, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> . Hebi Sasuke is superior to the version of Sasuke that Killer B wrecked in all aspects by a good margin,


No, he is not.
Even if he "just got his MS" it's a new power on top of his previous power. You could argue that "Well, Sasuke lost his CS"
But CS is not as powerful as the MS, even if he did not fully master it.


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## Trojan (May 26, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Ah classic Troy.
> 
> Don't really have an argument?
> 1. Whine about Jiraiya, like he is in this thread or mentioned by someone else.
> ...


So true.


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## The Great One (May 26, 2018)

Kisame. 

Even if Sasuke lost CS Kisame still went  1 on 1 with V2 Bee, so CS amp does not help Sasuke here. 

Also Kisame has big ass water techs.


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## Mr Dicklesworth (May 26, 2018)

Granted, Kisame was an absolutely awful matchup for B, since Samehada’s ability is specifically designed to defeat Tailed Beasts.

I think against anyone else on B’s Tier  (Minato, Tobirama, Itachi etc.) he would have gotten his shit pushed in.

Besides that, I’d still give it to Kisame. If Samehada is coming in with Chakra reserves, then nothing Sasuke does is putting Kisame down. Even Kirin he could regenerate from. Water dome would also be a bitch for him to deal with (although completely draining his chakra would let out Orochimaru, so that may give him the win).

Barring an Orochimaru entrance, I’d say Kisame high diff


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## Android (May 26, 2018)

Kisame is a mid kage.
Hebi Sasuke is a low kage.

That's all.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (May 26, 2018)

I'm sorry but Kisame stands zero chance is winning this. Sasuke is far stronger and powerful.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Troyse22 (May 26, 2018)

Sage light said:


> I'm sorry but Kisame stands zero chance is winning this. Sasuke is far stronger and powerful.



I've never actually genuinely laughed at a post, and I almost did here.

Legit stifled a laugh


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## WorldsStrongest (May 26, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Generally speaking, who is higher on the tier list


In terms of overall tier placement?

Neither

Neither is notably higher than the other

Both are peer to one another

They each do certain things better than the other and excel in areas the other cant hope to even compete in...But the opposite is also true

They walk shoulder to shoulder in tier placement

In terms of who wins a 1v1?

Thats a 50/50 for me

Hence their tier placement

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (May 26, 2018)

Hussain said:


> No, he is not.
> Even if he "just got his MS" it's a new power on top of his previous power.


 Yes he is. All of his physical stats are much higher as is his CQC skill and his ninjutsu are all powered up. The only thing rookie MS Sasuke has over Hebi Sasuke is Amaterasu which he cannot use very well and only uses as a last resort. 





> You could argue that "Well, Sasuke lost his CS"
> But CS is not as powerful as the MS, even if he did not fully master it.


Having the CS plus having absorbed Orochimaru is better than being a rookie with the MS. The MS may be overall more powerful, but if you can't use it properly that doesn't matter.


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## saradax (May 26, 2018)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Weren't Deidara and Hebi Sasuke dead equal, despite Sasuke's elemental advantage? I seem to recall both of them being out of options at the end of their fight. Deidara went insane and suicided and Sasuke had one of the more monumental moments of plot armor in the manga save his hide.
> 
> That's far from being "portrayed as his superior", killing intent or not.


Sasuke wasn't trying to kill Deidara since he needed him to tell him where Itachi was.
And he wasn't even out of chakra when Deidara was defeated, he still had enough to summon a boss sommon and use reserse summoning which proves that Sasuke was superior, not equals.
Not to mention Deidara knew everything there is to know on how to fight the sharingan since he prepared the past couple of years to beat Itachi, meanwhile Sasuke gathered info about him while fighting. He even had a genjutsu-proof eye and still got his ass beat and had to blow himself up of salt because he lost to Itachi's little brother.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (May 26, 2018)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Weren't Deidara and Hebi Sasuke dead equal, despite Sasuke's elemental advantage?




And little known fact...

Sasuke was also at a disadvantage there that most people overlook, Deidaras long ranged kit beats Sasukes close-mid ranged one





Sasuke was also at a second disadvantage, in that Tobi was there and assisted Deidara by setting up an entire damn minefield for him to trap Sasuke with

And again, the kid was holding back the entire time...And he still wins



BlackHeartedImp said:


> I seem to recall both of them being out of options at the end of their fight


Well Sasuke had many opportunities to kill Deidara had he wanted to

He was only in such a tight spot because he elected to keep Deidara alive and subdue him for information, rather than fatally injure him

Tobis presence also helped Deidara out significantly


BlackHeartedImp said:


> Deidara went insane and suicided


Which is a HUGE point to Sasukes superiority over Deidara

Deidara put literally 110% of himself into that fight and still flopped against a no KI sasuke


BlackHeartedImp said:


> Sasuke had one of the more monumental moments of plot armor in the manga save his hide


Meh

Dont really see how people argue that as plot armor

He had summoned snakes on panel prior to that fight, and summoning Manda wasnt something he did easily anyway so it aint like it was just forgotten about that he was supposed to be fatigued 

And again, teh fight only got to that stage at all because Sasuke let it

If he was going at Deidara with 100% of his power and KI, he would have went down long before C0


BlackHeartedImp said:


> That's far from being "portrayed as his superior", killing intent or not.


I disagree

It puts Sasuke as the clear breadwinner of the two

Tho it aint by much in the grand scheme of things


JuicyG said:


> This is all under the presumption that Deidara>=Kisame


Deidara is definitively Kisame superior 

There is a grand total of nothing Kisame can do against him

Its a matchup thing mostly, but Deidara also blows Kisame out of the water (puns SUPER intended) in terms of raw firepower, hax, and mobility

Which merits his higher placement overall as well

Not just from a 1v1 perspective

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 2


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## Plexa (May 26, 2018)

I'm undecided on the subject, but while Sasuke's fight with Bee was terribly embarrassing, Sasuke wasn't going for the kill there. He and Taka were specifically trying to capture Bee alive. That's why Suigetsu says "maybe we should go at him as if we're trying to kill him, then we could beat him without quite killing him". That's also the reason Sasuke unleashing the Amaterasu was so significant. He was absolutely disobeying an order from Akatsuki for the sake of his comrades, and simply killing Bee. He wasn't aware that he could extinguish the black flames at that point.

And again, Bee going full force against Kisame was directly contrary to his interests. He outright states this, because he doesn't want to be noticed by Kumogakure. So the Kisame>Bee>Sasuke train of thought is unreliable on two separate accounts.

I'm sort of edging more towards Kisame though.


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## TruestArtXI (May 26, 2018)

saradax said:


> Sasuke wasn't trying to kill Deidara since he needed him to tell him where Itachi was.
> And he wasn't even out of chakra when Deidara was defeated, he still had enough to summon a boss sommon and use reserse summoning which proves that Sasuke was superior, not equals.
> Not to mention Deidara knew everything there is to know on how to fight the sharingan since he prepared the past couple of years to beat Itachi, meanwhile Sasuke gathered info about him while fighting. He even had a genjutsu-proof eye and still got his ass beat and had to blow himself up of salt because he lost to Itachi's little brother.


Still acting like this is holding back?

However you put it having a hand in your chest is not holding back.
Deidara didn’t know “everything” on how to beat the sharigan the only thing he knew was don’t look in their eye and he had trained a eye for genjustu.
Him having enough Chakra was pure asspull man it’s obvious.
Even if you say “he turned off his sharigan himself”
He didn’t have enough strength to stand up so how could he summon a huge snake jump in it’s nose and reverse summon.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Ashi (May 26, 2018)

Mr Dicklesworth said:


> Granted, Kisame was an absolutely awful matchup for B, since Samehada’s ability is specifically designed to defeat Tailed Beasts.
> 
> I think against anyone else on B’s Tier  (Minato, Tobirama, Itachi etc.) he would have gotten his shit pushed in.
> 
> ...




Samehada isn't designed specifically for tailed beast, it's just the best at capturing Jinchurikki alive due to its very nature.

Kisame was still on par with Bee in his normal state and even survived a V2 Lariat, which., short of kirin, Sasuke has nothing on the level of.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (May 26, 2018)

When Sasuke decided to use the MS against Bee, an unrestricted Bee (who Kisame never fought) was forced to retreat immediately. The Sasuke Bee beat wasn’t using the MS and had never used it before.

The Sasuke Bee would have killed had no CS, had lost his Orochimaru powers, and had a weakened body from his fight with Itachi. Hebi Sasuke was much more formidable.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## BlackHeartedImp (May 26, 2018)

saradax said:


> Sasuke wasn't trying to kill Deidara since he needed him to tell him where Itachi was.


Still needed to beat him into submission. This whole line of thinking is one big contradiction, since Naruto and Sasuke are viewed as equals by most despite Naruto not actively trying to kill Sasuke in their last fight. The only exception where this logic would be acceptable in all scenarios would likely be Itachi v Sasuke, since Itachi was already on his deathbed in that fight and was actually trying to make Sasuke all the better for it.


saradax said:


> Sasuke wasn't trying to kill Deidara since he needed him to tell him where Itachi was.
> And he wasn't even out of chakra when Deidara was defeated, he still had enough to summon a boss sommon and use reserse summoning which proves that Sasuke was superior, not equals.


This is exactly what I mean by plot armor @WorldsStrongest . He couldn't even stand after funneling lightning nature chakra through his body to get rid of Deidara's snakes and was clearly exhausted, but he's got enough to summon Manda? Naruto could only summon Gamakichi and Gamatatsu in part I when he wasn't using Kurama's chakra, and only together could Tsunade and Sakura sumon 10% Katsuyu. It's an established thing that chakra-levels directly correlate to what someone can summon, ya know? 

Not only all of that, but he hypnotized AND hid in Manda's mouth in the seconds it would've taken the explosion to fully engulf him? He was right at the epicenter a few feet away from Deidara.  


saradax said:


> Not to mention Deidara knew everything there is to know on how to fight the sharingan since he prepared the past couple of years to beat Itachi, meanwhile Sasuke gathered info about him while fighting. He even had a genjutsu-proof eye and still got his ass beat and had to blow himself up of salt because he lost to Itachi's little brother.


This is just false. The only thing Deidara knew about the sharingan was that it cast powerful illusions, and the only type of training he did was genjutsu resistance, hence the genjutsu-proof eye.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Alita (May 26, 2018)

Kisame can beat killerbee all the way up to his v2 form. Killerbee while in base would have owned MS sasuke if his team had not been there to help him. MS sauce is stronger than hebi sauce and bee is easily high kage tier while Hebi sauce is mid kage tier at best if not lower. By portrayal kisame should easily be above hebi sauce. The only real problem he has is with genjutsu.


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## saradax (May 26, 2018)

TruestArtXI said:


> He didn’t have enough strength to stand up so how could he summon a huge snake jump in it’s nose and reverse summon.


He was never out of chakra, he was out of breath. Don't confuse chakra with stamina. At that point Sasuke had absorbed Orochimaru which means his chakra reserves were much better than before.
If Sasuke was really out of chakra like Deidara said then Orochimaru would've emerged from Sasuke like he did in the fight against Itachi where he really was out of chakra. The fact that Sasuke was out of chakra was just Deidara's assumption, he had no means to check if it was true. 
Now go ahead and continue calling "asspull" on things you don't like.
Sasuke defeated Deidara then he ragequited by blowing himself up by making his biggest explosion ever even if he had absolutely no chakra left (and this was legit because Sasuke's checked with his Sharingan) but I guess that's not an asspull to you, right?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## TruestArtXI (May 26, 2018)

saradax said:


> He was never out of chakra, he was out of breath. Don't confuse chakra with stamina. At that point Sasuke had absorbed Orochimaru which means his chakra reserves were much better than before.
> If Sasuke was really out of chakra like Deidara said then Orochimaru would've emerged from Sasuke like he did in the fight against Itachi where he really was out of chakra. The fact that Sasuke was out of chakra was just Deidara's assumption, he had no means to check if it was true.
> Now go ahead and continue calling "asspull" on things you don't like.
> Sasuke defeated Deidara then he ragequited by blowing himself up by making his biggest explosion ever even if he had absolutely no chakra left (and this was legit because Sasuke's checked with his Sharingan) but I guess that's not an asspull to you, right?


Even if he wasn’t completely out Chakra he still definitely didn’t have enough to *Summon Manda.* Your acting like Sasuke is >>Deidara. It’s asspull he didn’t die.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hi no Ishi (May 26, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Because it's true.


It it true that you bring up Jiraiya more than almost any other poster, and it is true you are clearly using insults to cover a lack of good arguments sometimes.
Yes.


Troyse22 said:


> Make a Hebi Sasuke vs Jiraiya thread and the people saying Genjutsu is a threat to Kisame and how easily it can be applied to him will suddenly be saying Jiraiya curbs Sasuke, genjutsu is no threat etc.


Again not the topic here. And I would be glad to make that thread , but would it just turn into you providing half and argument and spending the rest of the time on ad hominem attacks?

I think Hebi Sasuke would give any base Sannin a great deal of trouble and would definitely be on that side.


Troyse22 said:


> It's double standards and it makes this forum and its posters look retarded.


It makes them look like they have different argument for different characters, it happens. Let's see what reasons are provided.


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame controls what he and Samehada absorb, as Kisame absorbed Bees chakra inside dome multiple times and his dome was unaffected.


He clearly only absorbs from contact at that point, all he would have absorbed of the dome while holding B would be a few inches of water.  

In sword form there is at least some range of effect shown.


Troyse22 said:


> He also had Roshi resting on his blade for a good amount of time after being exhausted.





Hi no Ishi said:


> C) his Absorbtion isn't always on or an auto defense, either.


Yes. We know.



Troyse22 said:


> It means whoever uses the Raiton is gonna be seriously hurt, as well as any teammates.


Nope. Check out Mei, A or Darui. 

On the other hand Kisame will get shocked and has no lightning affinity.


Troyse22 said:


> Yeah, it never put him in a position where he loses, by the time Sasuke landed that punch Deidara was already exhausted.


It allowed him to beat the range advantage, gain position to kill, and allowed him to win a 2v1 vs  opponent who are hard to hit. 
And that guy actually trained in cannon unlike Kisame.


Troyse22 said:


> What combat experience does Danzo have against the Uchiha...?


Are you joking? 

That quote says with not against. Danzo was on a team with Kagami remember? He also lived in their village, had them in his ROOT and ordered their death. 


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame also has YEARS directly alongside Itachi, during that time Kisame was watching him like a hawk every step of the way due to his suspicion that Itachi was gonna betray him.
> 
> He obviously knew the potency of his genjutsu based on his reaction when he put Sasuke under Tsukuyomi.



Decades>> years. Clearly. 
Danzo spent his whole life with them. 
And if you think Danzo of all people wasn't thinking if how to beat them, you don't know Danzo.

Now provide proof just knowing that a person has genjutsu prevents being caught or drop your head cannon from arguments please.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (May 26, 2018)

Kisame would win 7.5/10 times. Difference in speed isn't big, so he wouldn't be blitzed. I also don't see any attack(bar Kirin and Hydra) lethal. I  think that after a few panel brawl, Kisame will use Daikodan and later finish Sasuke off with Waterdome.


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 27, 2018)

I don't know about Kisame's physical strength being Bijuu level... But the wank for him definately is. He defeated a Bee who was holding back while Sasuke lost to bee that went Bijuu mode and shit. 
But nonetheless.... I'd say 55 to Kisame. He probably beats Hebi.... Anything above Hebi he loses.


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## hbcaptain (May 27, 2018)

Portrayalwise, I think Hebi Sasuke is one cut above Kisame.
Featwise, he manged to hold his back against Bee's Acrobat for tens of balde exchanges despite fighting him without KI and being in a weackened state.
Therefore, with his full health and CS amp he should easily handle Bee's Acrobat.
Kisame in other hands got his shoulder pierced against a Bee restricted to two blades and whilst it's true he managed to dodge and spar easily against V1 linear moves, a Sasuke who could barely stand on his feets dodged it mid air with ease.

Overall, Sasuke has the eddge in CQC, with his faster moves and Sharingan precog/perception, he should easily overcome Kisame's skill with Samehada, and CS raise his physical stats to the point he can at least match the sharkman in terms of physical strengh and durability (remember that CS wing tanked a C2 explosion and easily stopped Itachi's Katon).

Whilst it's true, Kisame has a far bigger scale, Sasuke's focused ninjutsu is far stronger, Chidori and variantes can easily pentrate through the fodder sharks army and Daikoudan can be either dodged or tanked by summoning Manda.

Furtheremore, there is still Kirin as a last ressort assets.

Sasuke high/extreme diffs him.


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## Kisame (May 27, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Featwise, he manged to hold his back against Bee's Acrobat for tens of balde exchanges despite fighting him without KI and being in a weackened state.
> Therefore, with his full health and CS amp he should easily handle Bee's Acrobat.
> Kisame in other hands got his shoulder pierced against a Bee restricted to two blades


But Kisame used Sabu who was already locked-in with Kisame as a distraction for his pincer tactic. Sasuke also got _more swords_ jammed in him, so I'm not sure this is a good look for him.

Also, what was highlighted in both those exchanges were:
1. Kisame's absorption rendering raiton-blades useless.
2. Sasuke being overwhelmed by Bee's Kenjutsu.

Not "Kisame got stabbed" or "Sasuke managed to evade the first few hits". It was portrayed as a good moment for Kisame and a bad one for Sasuke.


> and whilst it's true he managed to dodge and spar easily against V1 linear moves, a Sasuke who could barely stand on his feets dodged it mid air with ease.


Because Lariat is linear, Kisame's moves however are not (at least not to the aame extent).


> Overall, Sasuke has the eddge in CQC, with his faster moves and Sharingan precog/perception, he should easily overcome Kisame's skill with Samehada


Kisame is more skilled in hand-to-hand combat, has comparable Kenjutsu, has much more strength, durability and resilience and can absorb any of his CQC Chidori variants.


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## Troyse22 (May 27, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> I don't know about Kisame's physical strength being Bijuu level... But the wank for him definately is. He defeated a Bee who was holding back while Sasuke lost to bee that went Bijuu mode and shit.
> But nonetheless.... I'd say 55 to Kisame. He probably beats Hebi.... Anything above Hebi he loses.



"That man wields every bit as much power as a Jinchuuriki"

One shotting creatures almost half the size of Bunta.

Real talk, Sasuke dies in one hit.


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## Troyse22 (May 27, 2018)

Let's also not forget that Kisame had to hold back too @PradyumnaR ....or wait does that not matter because it's Kisame and we gotta keep downplaying him?


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 27, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> "That man wields every bit as much power as a Jinchuuriki"



Dude..out of all the forums about Naruto ..you are the only solitary person who believes Kisame has bijuu level physical strength who got blocked by Asuma and a Midget toad... And got tossed 10 feet away by a lariat . He isn't one hitting Hebi sasuke, but then again it is criminal to expect anything unbiased and rational from you when it comes to Kisame threads.
Every poster here unanimously agrees how credible and unbiased you are when it comes to debating about Kisame so don't even try.. We already know you are the most legit poster ever.


Troyse22 said:


> One shotting creatures almost half the size of Bunta.



Sasuke once one shotted a bear twice the size of a T-Rex ( almost as big as bunta leaving out inconsistencies )and still hadn't graduated from shorts yet.... So yeah.. Genin sasuke is Kisame level in physical strength because bigger obviously means stronger in Narutoverse.

Kisame can oneshot creatures half the size of Bunta but not people like Asuma and Guy, who are far smaller than Bunta or weaker than a bijuu.

-snip-

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 27, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Let's also not forget that Kisame had to hold back too @PradyumnaR ....or wait does that not matter because it's Kisame and we gotta keep downplaying him?


Kisame held back by using two of his most powerful jutsus..Yeah..sure. He was totally holding back. It's clear as day.
( Sarcasm btw )

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (May 27, 2018)

Shark said:


> But Kisame used Sabu who was already locked-in with Kisame as a distraction for his pincer tactic. Sasuke also got _more swords_ jammed in him, so I'm not sure this is a good look for him.


Sasuke only got stabbed because of surprise effect, he wasn't excepecting Bee to channel Raiton in his blades and he was surprised whilst being in mid air.
In other hands, not even one balde actually penetrated Sasuke's body in frontal assaults from both.
Kisame only faced a far weaker Bee who only used two blades, thus inable to use Acrobat. Even with Sabu as a discrtaction, he still got pierced by a far weaker assault.
Also, let's not forget that Sasuke was weackened and that he has CS to amp his stats.



Shark said:


> Kisame is more skilled in hand-to-hand combat, has comparable Kenjutsu, has much more strength, durability and resilience and can absorb any of his CQC Chidori variants.


Kisame isn't physically stronger nor more durable than CS2 Sasuke, furtheremore he has never displayed enough skill to overcome Sharingan which allows Sasuke to see his next moves in slow motions on top of that.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 27, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Kisame isn't physically stronger nor more durable than CS2 Sasuke.


Kisame not physically stronger than CS2 Sasuke?? 
Brace yourselves comrade... Kisame has bijuu level physical strength arguments incoming.


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## hbcaptain (May 27, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Kisame not physically stronger than CS2 Sasuke??
> Brace yourselves comrade... Kisame has bijuu level physical strength arguments incoming.


Completly forgot that he has Bijuu level strengh, my bad...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kisame (May 27, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Sasuke only got stabbed because of surprise effect, he wasn't excepecting Bee to channel Raiton in his blades and he was surprised whilst being in mid air.


I'm talking about the seven swords acrobat attack, IIRC Bee didn't charge his weapons with Raiton there.

Also I'm not sure how "being surprised" is an excuse for Sasuke...


> In other hands, not even one balde actually penetrated Sasuke's body in frontal assaults from both.


What do you mean by this? Wasn't Sasuke stabbed by like 3 swords and then Karin had to heal him?


> Even with Sabu as a discrtaction, he still got pierced by a far weaker assault.


Sabu was still used as a distraction though that's the point.



> Kisame isn't physically stronger nor more durable than CS2 Sasuke, furtheremore he has never displayed enough skill to overcome Sharingan which allows Sasuke to see his next moves in slow motions on top of that.


He is more skilled in hand to hand and has comparable swordsmanship, durability, strength and is more resilient than CS2 Sasuke.

Sharingan precog has been highlighted in linear movements like Lariats etc I already mentioned that Kisame's moves however are not so straightforward (at least not to the same extent).


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## hbcaptain (May 27, 2018)

Shark said:


> I'm talking about the seven swords acrobat attack, IIRC Bee didn't charge his weapons with Raiton there.


I'm really talking about Acrobat. Despite being injured, Sasuke was able to exchange dozens of blows with Bee's 7 baldes style [][] before getting disarmed.
Thus, seeing how he can clash with him so many times before losing, he attempted to use . If there is no more swords, then obviously Bee can't use Acrobat style anymore and Sasuke would've the upper hand.
Suprisingly, whilst in mid air, Bee also showed that he can channel Raiton through his swords, something which .
The surprise effect combined to Acrobat unorthodox moves, this is the sole reason why Sasuke got pierced so easily with . Not to mention Sasuke actually saw them and managed to make them avoid critical areas by channeling Raiton through his body in .

And let's not forget that :
-Sasuke was still injured from his fight with Itachi.
-He didn't have KI
-He didn't have CS

In other words, he can at least fight Acrobat style with ease under neutral conditions.



> Sabu was still used as a distraction though that's the point.


Even with Sabu as a distraction, a mid air throwing style with barely two baldes is nowhere near Acrobat style in terms of unpredicability and skill.
Kisame never showed he can handle such advanced sword style.



> He is more skilled in hand to hand and has comparable swordsmanship, durability, strength and is more resilient than CS2 Sasuke.


What do you mean by resiliency ?



> Sharingan precog has been highlighted *in linear movements* like Lariats etc I already mentioned that Kisame's moves however are *not so straightforward* (at least not to the same extent).


There is no such a rule. Sharingan by definition can see through all ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu without exception. We saw that it's not totally true, but this fact is still here 99% of times.
An injured without CS without KI Sasuke being unable to overcome Acrobat (not as easily as people usually claim, I've already provided explenations above), doesn't mean it would be the same for someone who is nowhere near Acrobat style in terms of CQC skills.
Sharingan and higher speed/reactions easily give the upper hand to Sasuke for instance.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ashi (May 28, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Dude..out of all the forums about Naruto ..you are the only solitary person who believes Kisame has bijuu level physical strength who got blocked by Asuma and a Midget toad... And got tossed 10 feet away by a lariat . He isn't one hitting Hebi sasuke, but then again it is criminal to expect anything unbiased and rational from you when it comes to Kisame threads.
> Every poster here unanimously agrees how credible and unbiased you are when it comes to debating about Kisame so don't even try.. We already know you are the most legit poster ever.
> 
> 
> ...




Twice the size of a T Rex? Are you kidding me?


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## Ashi (May 28, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Sasuke only got stabbed because of surprise effect, he wasn't excepecting Bee to channel Raiton in his blades and he was surprised whilst being in mid air.
> In other hands, not even one balde actually penetrated Sasuke's body in frontal assaults from both.
> Kisame only faced a far weaker Bee who only used two blades, thus inable to use Acrobat. Even with Sabu as a discrtaction, he still got pierced by a far weaker assault.
> Also, let's not forget that Sasuke was weackened and that he has CS to amp his stats.
> ...




You are very bad at interpreting context my dude

"Bee used less swords!!!111" bullshit dude


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 28, 2018)

Ashi said:


> Twice the size of a T Rex? Are you kidding me?


Actually not.... Look at the size of it's head. A trex is about 15 to 16 ft tall usually. 20 is extreme. That head of the bear itself is like a building. Even if you consider Sasuke as just 5 feet tall, the head alone is 3x or 4x sasuke's height. That's one big ass bear.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (May 28, 2018)

Sasuke has the tools. Kisame's resilency will be of trouble and his bijuu power will cancel out Curse mark.


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## Troyse22 (May 28, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Dude..out of all the forums about Naruto ..you are the only solitary person who believes Kisame has bijuu level physical strength who got blocked by Asuma and a Midget toad... And got tossed 10 feet away by a lariat . He isn't one hitting Hebi sasuke, but then again it is criminal to expect anything unbiased and rational from you when it comes to Kisame threads.
> Every poster here unanimously agrees how credible and unbiased you are when it comes to debating about Kisame so don't even try.. We already know you are the most legit poster ever.
> 
> 
> ...




Outlier as is clearly the case with the Sasuke situation.

Besides Sasukes later strength feats contradict his inability to do that, so possibly a retcon.

Kisames strength feats as of P2 have been consistent.

Breaking KN4 restraining Mokuton and one shotting something comparable in size to Bunta are feats one cannot ignore.

-snip-

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 28, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Outlier as is clearly the case with the Sasuke situation.
> 
> Besides Sasukes later strength feats contradict his inability to do that, so possibly a retcon.
> 
> ...


Well well... The internet warrior flexing his cheetos dust covered finger tips while simultaneously striking a framed Kisame portrait...
Struck a nerve didn't we....My my.. How quickly you get ruled up when anyone argues against your favorite character... The guy who spends half his life on internet making threads like Kisame biju level physical strength etc is calling me, a properly employed dude a no life..... 
I thought so much salt could only be found at the seas.... 

Just because Sasuke does something impressive according 5o your logic makes it a retcon.... Tsk tsk....

Troy : one hitting something the size of Bunta isn't something to ignore...
Also Troy : Sasuke did it.. No fair... Mommy.... Retcon.... Sob sob.. Sniffle sniffle... Mommy... They are using logic...

Cry me a city level waterdome sized river kid.

Just because you got owned hilariously in an argument by someone using your own logic against you.. What could I expect??
Of course you'd ask me to f off....
Someone who himself is a fantasizing of 20 something year old legend who cries when he gets owned on the internet is calling someone else a loser..... You have no comebacks and no logical replies for this.. So flex those little fingertips... Go on.


Classic Troy.... You just one upped yourself in internet douchebaggery...


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## Troyse22 (May 28, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> The guy who spends half his life on internet making threads like Kisame biju level physical strength etc is calling me, a properly employed dude a no life.....



I think you truly overestimate the time i've been spending on the forums for the past couple of months

Real life calls.



PradyumnaR said:


> Just because Sasuke does something impressive according 5o your logic makes it a retcon.... Tsk tsk....



Mmmm sometimes things are blatant outlier.

Like Minato actually intercepting 8g Gai
Or 6g Lee throwing a Kunai faster than 8g Gai can Shunshin

Sasuke beating something of that size in one hit is outlier.



PradyumnaR said:


> Troy : one hitting something the size of Bunta isn't something to ignore...
> Also Troy : Sasuke did it.. No fair... Mommy.... Retcon.... Sob sob.. Sniffle sniffle... Mommy... They are using logic...



Because Kisame's feat is consistent with everything we know about him since p2.

The same cannot be said for Sasuke in that situation.



PradyumnaR said:


> Just because you got owned hilariously in an argument by someone using your own logic against you.. What could I expect??
> Of course you'd ask me to f off....



I don't recall getting owned here....

That feat is inconsistent with everything we know about Sasuke, and thus is outlier, just like the Lee and Minato situations.

It took Kyuubi influence for Naruto to achieve something similar (halting Oros huge summon)

A base kid Sasuke without CS if inferior in strength to Kyuubi Influenced Naruto without question, making Sasuke's feat there outlier.

See what I mean? It's inconsistent with everything we know about Sasuke and thus can be thrown off the table.

You consistently mention the midget toad and asuma feats as if it's some golden point that can't be refuted...yet is has been....multiple times.

1. Blatant retcon. Aside from the Sannin wankers of the NBD and you i've yet to see anyone say that Kisame will be stopped by a midget toad as of P2. He was outright physically weaker in P1 and wasn't notable outside of skill in assassination, Kenjutsu and his sword, Samehada. Kishi didn't make any implication or note of his strength, stamina, chakra or durability. He was above the average human in P1, but he wasn't the monster he is in P2.

As I saw @WorldsStrongest say (someone who actively opposes my opinion at every turn) the midget toad would literally explode if P2 Kisame hit it.

Plain and simple.

And now you're gonna spew some nonsense and act like you've won this debate, yet i've shut just about everything you've shit out (which coincidentally would come out of your mouth) down.



PradyumnaR said:


> Well well... The internet warrior flexing his cheetos dust covered finger tips while simultaneously striking a framed Kisame portrait...
> Struck a nerve didn't we....My my.. How quickly you get ruled up when anyone argues against your favorite character... The guy who spends half his life on internet making threads like Kisame biju level physical strength etc is calling me, a properly employed dude a no life.....





that's me in the photo, just a drawn version.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Ashi (May 28, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Actually not.... Look at the size of it's head. A trex is about 15 to 16 ft tall usually. 20 is extreme. That head of the bear itself is like a building. Even if you consider Sasuke as just 5 feet tall, the head alone is 3x or 4x sasuke's height. That's one big ass bear.


This is all speculation dude


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 28, 2018)

Ashi said:


> This is all speculation dude


Obviously.. I don't know how big Sasuke actually is or the bear so I'd Have to assume... And estimate.


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## Kisame (May 28, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> I'm really talking about Acrobat. Despite being injured, Sasuke was able to exchange dozens of blows with Bee's 7 baldes style [][] before getting disarmed.
> Thus, seeing how he can clash with him so many times before losing, he attempted to use .f there is no more swords, then obviously Bee can't use Acrobat style anymore and Sasuke would've the upper hand.


1. Sasuke clashed with him
2. Sasuke lost the clash
3. Sasuke attempted to use raiton because his normal swordsmanship had just gotten defeated. 
4. Sasuke would not have had the upper hand because all that clash shows is that Beeis superior and that his raiton was countered. 



> Suprisingly, whilst in mid air, Bee also showed that he can channel Raiton through his swords, something which .
> The surprise effect combined to Acrobat unorthodox moves, this is the sole reason why Sasuke got pierced so easily with . Not to mention Sasuke actually saw them and managed to make them avoid critical areas by channeling Raiton through his body in .
> 
> And let's not forget that :
> ...


There is no implication that his injuries against Itachi had anything to do with his performance in the swords clash; it was highlighted towards the later parts of the fight when the Mangekyo came out. We have no implication that Sasuke would not have gotten overwhelmed if he was fresh from those injuries.

Same with killing intent, I mean the same can be said for Kisame gets right?

Sasuke clashed, got disarmed, clashed again, got stabbed. If you remove the raiton entirely the same thing would have happened. Sasuke being overwhelmed before is not evidence that he won't be overwhelmed again. 


> Even with Sabu as a distraction, a mid air throwing style with barely two baldes is nowhere near Acrobat style in terms of unpredicability and skill.
> Kisame never showed he can handle such advanced sword style.


Only two people have gone up against Acrobat: Sasuke who got stabbed and Itachi who dodged. How big do you think the difference is between Itachi and sasuke and where does Kisame stands?

Bee got the upper hand on Kisame by blondsiding him with a pincer attack that Kisame clearly countered from aportrayal aspect.


> What do you mean by resiliency ?


Kisame was fine after being stabbed by Bee's sword.


> There is no such a rule. Sharingan by definition can see through all ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu without exception. We saw that it's not totally true, but this fact is still here 99% of times.


Feats seem to highlight certain linear movements though. 



> An injured without CS without KI Sasuke being unable to overcome Acrobat (not as easily as people usually claim, I've already provided explenations above), doesn't mean it would be the same for someone who is nowhere near Acrobat style in terms of CQC skills.
> Sharingan and higher speed/reactions easily give the upper hand to Sasuke for instance.


Kisame has other advantages over Sasuke and I'm not sure why you think they won't be relevant.


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## Troyse22 (May 28, 2018)

Love shutting kids down so hard they run to the mods


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## Thenewguysnm1 (Jun 3, 2020)

Kisame sucks him dry, Kisame also had no problem going after bee who soloed hebi.

BM bee>=Kisame hada>V2 bee>Base Kisame>V1 bee>base Bee> Taka>Hebi sasuke

Kisame wins lower end of mid diff


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## Crow (Jun 3, 2020)

Taka Sasuke lost to Bee and Kisame was handling Bee, Hebi Sasuke is comfortably below Kisame on the tier list.


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## jesusus (Jun 3, 2020)

JuicyG


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## Troyse22 (Jun 4, 2020)

JuicyG said:


> Generally speaking,  who is higher on the tier list



Anyone arguing for Sasuke is experiencing a condition called "clinical insanity"


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## Tengu (Jun 5, 2020)

Kisame wins.

Kisame is the superior sword fither here, he can absorb all lighting variants from Sasuke as he did against Bee and can heal from pretty much everything Sasuke throws at him.


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## Stonaem (Jun 5, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Anyone arguing for Sasuke is experiencing a condition called "clinical insanity"


We both are of the understanding that Kisame is a tier ahead. 

However, with Sasuke having access to Manda (threat to Kusanagi wielding Orochimaru), Aoda (fast enough to impress EMS Sasuke), tens of giant snakes that  and possibly even Hakuja Sennin, considering their rankings need not be a measure of insanity. 

Surely?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 5, 2020)

Naemlis Orez said:


> We both are of the understanding that Kisame is a tier ahead.
> 
> However, with Sasuke having access to Manda (threat to Kusanagi wielding Orochimaru), Aoda (fast enough to impress EMS Sasuke), tens of giant snakes that  and possibly even Hakuja Sennin, considering their rankings need not be a measure of insanity.
> 
> Surely?


We don't know if  Sasuke has Aoda at that point so can't simply give him that benefit.
He doesn't have the hawk either at that point.
Those random snakes are fodder compared to Kisame. Only a boss summon should be able to threaten him and require a significant portion of his attention.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 5, 2020)

Kisame should take this in the tier and an actual battle as well. He is physically stronger, fast enough and has the hax to suck chakra based attacks.
Sasuke's only sure shot is Kirin here as everything else is not going to put someone as durable as Kisame down.
And water dome is a bitch as well.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 5, 2020)

Naemlis Orez said:


> However, with Sasuke having access to Manda (threat to Kusanagi wielding Orochimaru), Aoda (fast enough to impress EMS Sasuke), tens of giant snakes that  and possibly even Hakuja Sennin, considering their rankings need not be a measure of insanity.



Sasuke never employs these strategies.

Orochimaru and Sasuke have totally different fighting styles, and even though the NBD isn't afflicted with plot, there's still a concept of "in-character", this would be Sasuke acting totally out of character

Even then, we saw Kisame casually KO a monster roughly have the size of the Gama toads, summons aren't a threat to him whatsoever.

To be honest I don't believe these summons are threats to any Kage level tbh.


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## Stonaem (Jun 6, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Sasuke never employs these strategies.
> 
> Orochimaru and Sasuke have totally different fighting styles, and even though the NBD isn't afflicted with plot, there's still a concept of "in-character", this would be Sasuke acting totally out of character
> 
> ...


'In character' is inherently flawed as it relies on plot based evidence,  but i get you. 

Size hardly matters,  otherwise Fat Anko is twice as strong as Kakashi.  . . 

Looking at their techniques:
- Giants that can wreck the ground
- speedsters who can evade Juubi arms
- speedsters who can feint Bunta who reacted to Shukaku
- the sage techniques White Rage and Ground Manipulation

Why wouldn't they threaten a basic kage,  at least together?


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## Stonaem (Jun 6, 2020)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> We don't know if  Sasuke has Aoda at that point so can't simply give him that benefit.
> He doesn't have the hawk either at that point.
> Those random snakes are fodder compared to Kisame. Only a boss summon should be able to threaten him and require a significant portion of his attention.


Well,  the frog summoners can summon all frogs.  . . 

At least,  we saw Sasuke summon fodders,  so the contracts aren't  exclusive to one snake. 

We saw similar sized snakes to the fodder Sasuke summoned tank explosions and bind Juubi branches,  they aren't useless. 

They don't  need a significant portion,  just half a second to poison him.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 6, 2020)

Naemlis Orez said:


> 'In character' is inherently flawed as it relies on plot based evidence, but i get you.
> 
> Size hardly matters, otherwise Fat Anko is twice as strong as Kakashi. . .
> 
> ...



If size isn't the problem Kisame has in dealing with them, what is, that's the point of the size point.

1, Cool
2. ??
3. Feinting Bunta isn't impressive. Manda may be a kage level, but this isn't transferable to the other Sannin or their summons since Manda has some nice feats and portrayal going for him relative to the others, stalemating Oro is an impressive feat for a summon.
4. Wait wait wait wait these are Kabuto feats, don't tell me ur transfering these jutsu to other sages just because they can wield NE?

Those are HIS Jutsu.


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## Stonaem (Jun 6, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> If size isn't the problem Kisame has in dealing with them, what is, that's the point of the size point.
> 
> 1, Cool
> 2. ??
> ...


Its flawed because ninjas are more than their bodies.  Its what they do with those bodies that counts. 

So Kisame certainly did well in showing he can move big guys around,  but Bunta and co can jump, launch forest level techs etc.  Its like,  your initial point,  saying that someone who can beat Hayate Gekko can also beat Nagato because they're the same size. 

1. Cool
2. When Sasuke summoned Aoda during WA to get closer to the enemy, somewhere around ch. 633
3. Bunta reacted to bijuu ninjutsu with hand-sign based ninjutsu. That's  speed. 
4. Feats?  Yes. Abilities?  No. 

Continuing with 4:
Kabuto learned those techniques from Hakuja Sennin. Makes sense she herself knows those techniques and as a natyral sage with 1000 yrs of sage mode mastery she should be the best at using those techniques. 
(Im referring to that dragon ball orb technique as well as the one where he makes spikes come out of the ground)


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