# Official Konoha Library Tier List - Voting on Hold, Discussing New Approach



## Turrin (Aug 10, 2012)

*Mission*​The Mission of this thread is for the Konoha Library community to come together and create universal tier list for the characters in the Naruto manga. What does this mean? It means that based on votes from fellow Library regulars we would be seeking to create a single tier list from the ground up in 3 phases.



*Prelim Tier List*

*S+ *
Rikudo Sennin

*S*
Kabuto
Tobi (Rinnegan)
Naruto(Current)
Madara (Edo)

*S-*
Sasuke (EMS)
Nagato
Tob's Rikudo
Madara (EMS)
Hashirama
Minato

*A+*
Hiruzen (Prime)
Tobi (Pre Rinnegan)
Killer Bee
Naruto (Pre-BM)
Pain Rikudo
Itachi

*A*
White Fang
Hanzo (Prime)
Nidaime Mizukage
Sandaime Raikage
Kakashi
Tobirama
Uchiha Shisui 
Mū
Yondaime Raikage
Orochimaru 
Jiraiya
Onoki 
Naruto (Pre-KCM)
Danzo 
Sasuke (MS)
Gai

*A-*
Kinkaku
Ginkaku
Kakuzu 
Hebi Sasuke
Deidara
Yondaime Kazekage
Sandaime Kazekage
Mei Terumei
Sasori
Tsunade
Kisame
Gaara
Hiruzen (old)


*B+*
Konan 
Kitsuchi
Hidan
Chiyo
Darui
Naruto (Pre SM)
Mifune
Hanzo (Rusty)  

*B*
Kankuro
Chouji
Dan
Yamato
Asuma
Zabuza

*B-*
Nara Shikaku 
Amakichi Chouza
Chojuro
AO
Akatsuchi
Kurenai 
Kurotsuchi
Juugo
Shikamaru
Fu
Torune
Suigetsu
Sai
Temari
Hyuuga Hiashi
Hyuuga Hizashi
Hyuuga Neji
Zetsu
Kimimaro 

*C+*
Kiba
Samui
Mitarashi Anko
Aburame Shino
C
Rock Lee
Shizune
Sakura
Baki
Inoichi

*C*
Atsui
Shin
Karui
Omoi
Gekko Hayate
Aoba
Shiranui Genma
Tayuya
Hyuuga Hinata
Kidomaru
Haku 
Sakon-Ukon
Jirobo

*C-*
Karin
Tenten 
Ino

*D+*
Uchiha Obito (Gaiden)
Umino Iruka


*D*
Mizuki
Zaku Abumi
Yoroi Akadō
Maki 
Dosu
Rin
Konohamaru 

*D-*
Demon Brothers
Kin Tsuchi
Misumi Tsurugi 
Oobro Brothers


*Phase III: Revisions*​After the creation of the Prelim list will come the revision portion. The revision process will be a much more detailed process in which we fine tune the list. 

1. We will discuss 3 characters at a time whose placement is under consideration for revision

2. These 3 characters placements will than be put to a 3 day vote

3. In the revisions phase people will be required to give coherent reasoning for there placement of these three characters for their vote to be counted.

*Rules*​There are a few rules I would like people to abide to for the purpose of the success of this thread:

1. People are not allowed to post their own tier lists (aside from the Prelim process), the purpose of this thread is to create a single tier list, not discuss every single person's own tier list. 

2. People are not allowed to vote/discuss characters tier placements aside from the ones that are currently indicated to be up for discussion.

3. And of course try and be as respectful as possible to fellow posters and avoid hard core flaming, baiting, etc...


I only add these rules since I feel it is necessary to avoid the thread losing it's direction. I also tried my best to model the format of this thread after the KC somewhat, because the KC is the one example where posters have come together in a civil fashion to create a tier list and discuss characters placements without things devolving into a flame war or discussing the same old topics over and over again.

*Wrap Up*​Any thoughts on this format (positive or negative) are welcome at least during Phase I as well as any input on rules or issues I may have overlooked. 

*Also If this goes well Super Mode Naruto will sticky this thread. What does this mean? It means we'll finally be able to discuss characters tier placements in the Library again and work to create an universal tier list so long as people do not abuse the privilege. However this does not change the fact that people are banned from making Tier List threads in the Konoha Library, it merely means that Mods are potentially going to lift the ban for this one thread only. So in other words do not post tier list threads, keep all discussion within this one.*


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 10, 2012)

Okay, lets do this 

Maybe something like this for tiers:
God
Demi-God
High Kage
Mid Kage
Low Kage
High Jonin
Mid Jonin
Low Jonin
Chunin
Genin
Sakura



Turrin said:


> We Also need to vote on: How many characters we discuss/vote on the placement of at any one time (Example: 1, 3, or 5) and how long we should leave voting for these characters open (Example: 1, 2, or 3 days)


I'd go for max 3 characters at once so we can actually focus on those characters properly.


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 10, 2012)

Tiers:

God
Demigod
High Kage
Mid Kage
Low Lage
High Jounin
Mid Jounin
Low Jounin
High Chunnin
Mid Chunnin
Low Chunnin
High Genin
Mid Genin
Low Genin
Fodder

Id say 3 at a time.

Also note: judging by how things are going in the BD tier list thread, this will only end well.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 10, 2012)

JuubiSage said:


> Okay, lets do this
> 
> Maybe something like this for tiers:
> God
> ...


I like the tier brackets (though I also like the idea of using S+ - D- since we avoid the crap like people complaining that a certain character isn't in the Kage Tier, but is Kage Class, which could become an issue) and my personal preference on number of characters would be 3-5 as well. 

But yeah keep the opinions rolling.



Hossaim said:


> Also note: judging by how things are going in the BD tier list thread, this will only end well.


I specifically tried to use this format to avoid the cluster fuck that's going down in the BD thread. My hope is these rules and the effort people put into creating a quality tier list will prevent this thread from devolving into that state.


----------



## KAKASHI10 (Aug 10, 2012)

Is this a hidden itachi wank thread?  

On topic:
Kage should be just kage. not low, mid oor high. if you are a kage you are suppose to be a kage


----------



## StuckInADaze (Aug 10, 2012)

Oh man, don't think this will end well.

On topic: I think it's silly to put a limit on how many people can occupy a tier, and would actually be counter productive to the accuracy of the tier list. For example, I can think of more than 3 high jonin, but putting a number limit would force people to place them in tiers either higher or lower than they deserve. Than there's the actual math of it. If you have a limit of 3 characters per tier and only so many tiers, are we supposed to just leave characters off the list?

Edit: nevermind, realized you guys were talking about how many characters to vote on at a time. My bad


----------



## MYJC (Aug 10, 2012)

I'm for the idea of using S+, S, S-, A+, A, A-, B+, etc. rather than High Kage/Medium Kage or whatever.


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 10, 2012)

Actually, yeah. People bitching about Kage characters not being in the tier called kage is really anoying.

S+
S
S-
A+
A
A-
B+
B
B-
C+
C
C-
D+
D
D-

I think it's a good idea to have a fair amount of tiers. Lets us be specific.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 10, 2012)

StuckInADaze said:


> Oh man, don't think this will end well.
> 
> On topic: I think it's silly to put a limit on how many people can occupy a tier, and would actually be counter productive to the accuracy of the tier list. For example, I can think of more than 3 high jonin, but putting a number limit would force people to place them in tiers either higher or lower than they deserve. Than there's the actual math of it. If you have a limit of 3 characters per tier and only so many tiers, are we supposed to just leave characters off the list?


No were not talking about limiting 3 shinobi to 1 tier were talking about only discussing 3 characters placement on a tier at any one time. So for example we discuss Lee, Kiba's, and Shino's placement for a few days than discuss Sakura, Ino's, and Hinata's placement the next few days


----------



## BroKage (Aug 10, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I also like the idea of using S+ - D- since we avoid the crap like people complaining that a certain character isn't in the Kage Tier, but is Kage Class, which could become an issue


But this manga also uses the term "S-Class", and thus if someone is considered say an S-Class missing nin in canon but isn't in an S tier then there'd still be problems.


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 10, 2012)

KAKASHI10 said:


> Kage should be just kage. not low, mid oor high. if you are a kage you are suppose to be a kage



And that creates another bunch of problems. Hashirama is a Kage and Mei is a Kage, but it's silly to even compare them, that's how big difference there is in their power.

S, A, B, C etc. might be better. Need to think about this for a while...


----------



## Turrin (Aug 10, 2012)

Shice said:


> But this manga also uses the term "S-Class", and thus if someone is considered say an S-Class missing nin in canon but isn't in an S tier then there'd still be problems.


Come on now 

But if you got another idea, be glad to hear it.


----------



## wibisana (Aug 11, 2012)

I like the Idea 
S+
S
S-
A+
A
A-

but it just little weird man.. I mean that just not too common in the world

when I played Megaman.exe battle network

they have rank list like this
SSS
SS
S
A
B
C
D
E

its way more make sense without (+) or (-)

*added* it may be better this way

Jounin supposed to be A level
and Missing nin is S level

SSS  -
SS    -
S     - S class Missing nin
A     - Jounin
B
C
D
E


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 11, 2012)

Shice said:


> But this manga also uses the term "S-Class", and thus if someone is considered say an S-Class missing nin in canon but isn't in an S tier then there'd still be problems.



Yeah, but all the S rank criminals bar hidan will make S rank anyway.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 11, 2012)

Shice said:


> But this manga also uses the term "S-Class", and thus if someone is considered say an S-Class missing nin in canon but isn't in an S tier then there'd still be problems.



Just replace the letters with numbers then, it's what they did in school's, getting rid of the letter system after all. 

1+
1
1-
2+
2
2-
3+
3
3-
4+
4
4-
5+
5
5-

Though it doesn't look near has good has the letters do. 

And I say 3-4 character's at a time should be good.


----------



## NO (Aug 11, 2012)

Do we have to go into this 50 page argument again? Kage (or any other ninja rank) is _*not*_ a measurement of power.


----------



## HK-47 (Aug 11, 2012)

I like this, but I have a mind to know that this won't end well...


----------



## WT (Aug 11, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 



1. People are not allowed to post their own tier lists, the purpose of this thread is to create a single tier list, not discuss every single person's own tier list




The most important aspect of this would be the fact that these should be measurable. 

Perhaps first decide upon the ideal Shinobi who would fit these categories and then allocate others on these earlier allocations.


----------



## Ghost (Aug 11, 2012)

God Tier
Transcendent
High Kage
Mid Kage
Low Kage
Elite Jounin
Jounin
Chuunin
Genin


----------



## Naruto (Aug 11, 2012)

jayjay32 said:


> Do we have to go into this 50 page argument again? Kage (or any other ninja rank) is _*not*_ a measurement of power.



Agreed. "Kage" means strongest in the village. If it was a village of _ducks_, that wouldn't mean much.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 11, 2012)

If we're really attempting to approach this with anything resembling serious objectivity, I recommend that we make our tiers broad and few.

What I mean by this is, we need a tier list in which we can put characters like Itachi, Minato, Nagato, and Jiraiya all in the same tier without anybody crying foul. To do this, I think the distinctions between tiers need to be huge.

For example:


*God Tier*

Rikudou Sennin

*Demigod Tier*

Naruto, Madara, Tobi

*Top Class Tier*

Nagato, Minato, Itachi, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Tsunade, Deidara, Sasori, Chiyo, Kakashi, Gai, Killer B, Hiruzen, Gaara, Konan

*Mid Tier*

Darui, Kimimaro, Kitsuchi, Asuma, Shikamaru, Hidan, Zabuza

*Low Tier*

Sakura, Konohamaru, Haku, Dosu, Iruka

*Bottom Tier*

Fodder ninja (e.g., White Zetsu & Anbu), non-combatants


----------



## Edward Nygma (Aug 11, 2012)

Naruto said:


> Agreed. "Kage" means strongest in the village. *If it was a village of ducks, that wouldn't mean much.*


Is that so?



On Topic: The lettering system will work the best. None of the tittles are good measurements of power. Even the basic ranks of Jonin, Chunin, and Genin only serve as proof that a person meets the minimum requirement to earn that rank.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 11, 2012)

@Everyone
Aside from the letters there are two other possibilities I thought of. 

We could simply do points, like they use in the KC or we could do roman numerals (Example: Tier I, Tier II, Tier III, etc...)

I'm going to try and set up a format for the vote on the Phase I objectives by tonight, so keep the opinions coming to them and the most popular things will all be considered in the vote.




Nikushimi said:


> If we're really attempting to approach this with anything resembling serious objectivity, I recommend that we make our tiers broad and few.
> 
> What I mean by this is, we need a tier list in which we can put characters like Itachi, Minato, Nagato, and Jiraiya all in the same tier without anybody crying foul. To do this, I think the distinctions between tiers need to be huge.
> 
> ...


There is some truth to this, but I feel if we make tiers this broad, making a tier list kind of becomes a bit pointless. Though I see your points on broader tiers in general and I have no problem with it, I'll certainly include a broader tier format like this (if not this one itself) in a vote on which tier brackets to use.


----------



## Edward Nygma (Aug 11, 2012)

Turrin said:


> @Everyone
> Aside from the letters there are two other possibilities I thought of.
> 
> We could simply do points, like they use in the KC or we could do roman numerals (Example: Tier I, Tier II, Tier III, etc...)
> ...



I think points is a poor choice for ranks outside of things like the KC. Roman numerals could work, sounds kind of boring though. I know practicality should come before aesthetics, but it should still look/sound cool.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 11, 2012)

Turrin said:


> There is some truth to this, but I feel if we make tiers this broad, making a tier list kind of becomes a bit pointless. Though I see your points on broader tiers in general and I have no problem with it, I'll certainly include a broader tier format like this (if not this one itself) in a vote on which tier brackets to use.



The proverbial skeleton in the closet that nobody likes to face is the fact that at some point, there IS a degree of ambiguity to character comparisons. Some people will say certain characters are evenly matched while others might say one is grossly outmatched, and someone else might also think one of the characters is outmatched, but it might be the other one; each side will be able to make valid arguments, but their views become impossible to reconcile because they accept and reject completely different premises.

For example, let's cut the bullshit and skip right to Itachi vs. Jiraiya, which by now everyone should have realized is the only thing that has ever mattered in Naruto:

If you believe that Itachi and Jiraiya were portrayed as equals, you're probably not going to see eye-to-eye with someone who believes Jiraiya and Orochimaru are meant to be seen as equal shinobi. You might say "Well, Itachi said they'd kill eachother", but then they'd respond with "Itachi trashed Orochimaru, who can give Jiraiya a close fight." Then it'll generally go:

"It's different with Jiraiya."

"How is it different?"

"<insert conjecture>"

"<insert expected disagreement>"

Ad nauseam.

Alternatively:

"Itachi said they'd kill eachother."

"Itachi had to be lying."

"How's that?"

"<insert conjecture>"

"<insert expected disagreement>"

Ad nauseam.


Then there are more complicated (yet less controversial) character match-ups where there aren't such divisive preconceptions because there's nothing resembling a direct comparison in the source material, so there's nothing written in stone (or at least nothing capable of being perceived as such); stuff like Muu vs. Itachi or Deidara vs. Orochimaru. I would say Itachi vs. Minato fits this bill, too, but it's also one of the more controversial ones because both characters are essentially alphas and a silver medal almost seems out of character to their respective fanbases.

So really, the only way to approach this tier list with any objectivity is to accept a reasonable range of variability and make the tiers as broad as necessary to accommodate this.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 11, 2012)

Datenshi Uchiha said:


> I think points is a poor choice for ranks outside of things like the KC. Roman numerals could work, sounds kind of boring though. I know practicality should come before aesthetics, but it should still look/sound cool.


We could put the numerals in color to improve the ascetic appeal of the tier list:  Tier I, Tier II, Tier III. 



Nikushimi said:


> So really, the only way to approach this with any objectivity is to accept a reasonable range of variability and make the tiers as broad as possible to accommodate this.


I think the best way to approach this with objectivity is to allow people to vote on every aspect of this tier list. I agree their is ambiguity and don't mind broader tiers, but not everyone believes the same ambiguity exists as others. For some people its crystal clear that X-character > Y-character. So we'll try letting everyone vote on everything and if that doesn't work that's what Phase III with revisions is for.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 11, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I think the best way to approach this with objectivity is to allow people to vote on every aspect of this tier list. I agree their is ambiguity and don't mind broader tiers, but not everyone believes the same ambiguity exists as others. For some people its crystal clear that X-character > Y-character. So we'll try letting everyone vote on everything and if that doesn't work that's what Phase III with revisions is for.



It's not objective just because you're getting more people to vote and reach a consensus.

Amiguity is the only true objective reality here; "I only know that I do not know."

Anyone who thinks something is "crystal clear" when it hasn't been explicitly given to them has their head up their ass, plain and simple.


----------



## Edward Nygma (Aug 11, 2012)

Turrin said:


> We could put the numerals in color to improve the ascetic appeal of the tier list:  Tier I, Tier II, Tier III.


That could work, sparkles would be better. 

Anywho, I'm still in favor of the letters. Anything that both school and video games use has to be win.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 11, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> It's not objective just because you're getting more people to vote and reach a consensus.
> 
> Amiguity is the only true objective reality here; "I only know that I do not know."
> 
> Anyone who thinks something is "crystal clear" when it hasn't been explicitly given to them has their head up their ass, plain and simple.


Like I said, I personally think you make a fair point. However if we were to only rank characters whose placement has explicitly been given to us, it would become impossible to create a tier list and if we try to account for the ambiguity by making incredibly broad tiers, I believe it drains some of the fun out of this process. 

So all I can do for you is put the option you suggested up for vote alongside other options discussed. If your option gets the most votes than cool we'll role with it. If another option wins with less broad tiers than we'll just have to strive as a community to count for the ambiguity as much as possible within the confines of those tier brackets. Than we can always go back and revise the tier list. 

That's all I really have to say about this issue.


----------



## Kanki (Aug 11, 2012)

It would be pointless if we made it vague. Everyone should give their lists and have tier 1, 2, 3, 4 ect. No discussions allowed as we already have a thread in the BD.

Then after everyone has voted (once the time limit has passed) someone has to go and count all the votes up.


----------



## Naruto (Aug 11, 2012)

Top
High
Mid
Low
Bottom

Those are the tiers we use in fighting videogame lingo.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 11, 2012)

Kakashi Is God said:


> It would be pointless if we made it vague. Everyone should give their lists and have tier 1, 2, 3, 4 ect. No discussions allowed as we already have a thread in the BD.
> 
> Then after everyone has voted (once the time limit has passed) someone has to go and count all the votes up.


That's essentially what were doing except instead of people posting their own tier list they are voting on things to build a single tier list. People can post their own tier list in the BD Thread and discuss them in the BD thread


----------



## Turrin (Aug 11, 2012)

Might as well open up the first Phase of Voting. I'll start things off:

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

: Turrin

: Turrin

:

:

*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character:

3 Characters: Turrin

5 Characters: Turrin

8 Characters:


*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin

3 Days: Turrin

5 Days:

*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin

No:

Two things to keep in Mind:

1. To make votes easier to tally please copy the vote above you when making your vote. For example If your the first person after me, copy my votes and than place your own votes on what you copied. Also follow the format I put forth where you post your username next to the options your voting for

2. You can vote for more than one option if you'd be fine with ether option


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 11, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Turrin, Hossaim

Roman Normals: Turrin

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers:

*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character:

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim

5 Characters: Turrin

8 Characters:


*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim

3 Days: Turrin

5 Days:

*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin

No:

Two things to keep in Mind:

1. To make votes easier to tally please copy the vote above you when making your vote. For example If your the first person after me, copy my votes and than place your own votes on what you copied. Also follow the format I put forth where you post your username next to the options your voting for

2. You can vote for more than one option if you'd be fine with ether option


----------



## hitokugutsu (Aug 11, 2012)

For discussions I've always used the A/A+/S/S+ ranking system

Anyway general outline

*A tier (general Jonin)*
People who have the rank of Jonin but not that good (yet) that they are considered among the finest (see next tier)

Neji etc.


*A+ tier (elite Jonin)*
Jonin's who are highlighted and have a repuation (backed up by skill)

Zabuza / Asuma / Yamato / Samui / Dodai / Kurotuschi / Hidan / Ao etc.


*S- tier (Kage Candiate)*
Those qualified for a Kage position, however they are not really your "first" choice. And usually fall short on more "experience" and stronger Kages

Kakashi (early part II) / Gai / Darui / Kurotsuchi / Deidara / Kisame / Konan / Kakuzu etc.


*S tier (Kage Class)*
Most Kages fall in this Class. And those who have skills equal on par with such Kages

A / Tsunade / Jiraya / Orochimaru / Sasori / Danzo / Onoki / Hebi Sasuke / SM Naruto / prime Hanzo etc.


*S+ tier (Exceptional Kages)*
Those who even among the Kages stand out

Prime Hiruzen / (healthy) Itachi / Minato / Nagato / SM Kabuto / KCM Naruto / MS Sasuke (however we never saw him in all his glory, when he achieved full Susanoo his eyes failed him, and he was exhausted)


*S++ tier (Legends)*

EMS Madara / Shodai / BM Naruto / EMS Sasuke (most likely)


*Z tier (haxx)*

Rinnegan Madara / Rinnegan Tobi


----------



## Edward Nygma (Aug 11, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha [3]

Roman Normals: Turrin [1]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers:

*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character:

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha [3]

5 Characters: Turrin [1]

8 Characters:


*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha [3]

3 Days: Turrin

5 Days:

*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha [2]

No:


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 11, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha [3]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers:

*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character:

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK [4]

5 Characters: Turrin [1]

8 Characters:


*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha [3]

3 Days: Turrin, WPK [2]

5 Days:

*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK [3]

No:[/QUOTE]


Three days for voting as thats how we do things in the KC.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 11, 2012)

I actually like the Class ranking system. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a _Low Kage_, or a _Mid Kage_, by Naruto standards a Kage is a Kage. Shinobi ranks do not always measure offensive strength, hence why old Hiruzen was so far behind his Hokage successor and his predecessors, or why Mei Terumi is so far behind the Nidaime Mizukage. 

However, an SS, S, A, B, C, D rank system could work well. 

I should add that, we should *not* be basing a characters ranking solely on their offensive strength. Hype should definitely be taken into account, as well as any other useful or powerful abilities/feats that are noteworthy. 

*For example;* take Dan Katō. Although relatively featless, he was a feared shinobi who could effortlessly combat Chouza and a bunch of unnamed shinobi, even without the use of his _Spirit Transformation technique_. Dan's skills were so high that even Kakuzu had heard of him, referring him as the silver piece of of the Edo Tensei army at the time. His Databook totals were also very high, having 3.5-4.5's in every single stat, and a total of 31.5 overall. 

I would also encourage people to not use A>B>C logic. Just because A>B, it doesn't mean A>C. Some characters have advantages over one another, and some characters, despite having more overwhelming offense, have less defensive abilities, intelligence and diversity in their arsenal, that make them weak to certain characters.



*Spoiler*: _Godaime Tsunade_ 





*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade [4]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers:

*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character:

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade [5]

5 Characters: Turrin [1]

8 Characters:


*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha [3]

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade [3]

5 Days:

*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade [4]

No: 


Reasoning is a must. We also _definitely_ should not use polls. Polls lead to inaccurate results, since not all people give their opinions, merely voting in the spur of the moment, and then leaving the thread.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 11, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH [5]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers:

*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character:

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade [5]

5 Characters: Turrin, KH [2]

8 Characters:


*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH [4]

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade [3]

5 Days:

*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH [5]

No: 


Reasoning is a must. We also _definitely_ should not use polls. Polls lead to inaccurate results, since not all people give their opinions, merely voting in the spur of the moment, and then leaving the thread.


----------



## Kanki (Aug 11, 2012)

Are we taking into account things like longevity/hype/versatility? Or is it a tier list simply based on each character fighting in their prime based on feats?


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 11, 2012)

As this is the KL, and not the BD, I would say we are basing it on the former, KIG.​


----------



## Mio (Aug 11, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH [5]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers: Mio [1]


*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character:

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, Mio [6]

5 Characters: Turrin, KH [2]

8 Characters:


*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH, Mio [5]

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade [3]

5 Days:


*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH [5]

No: Mio [1]


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 11, 2012)

No hype. Hype sucks.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 11, 2012)

Since this is the Library we will take a more holistic approach. Incorporating feats hype statement portrayal etc


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 11, 2012)

Letter grades. 

3 characters. 

2-3 days.

Need reasoning.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 11, 2012)

I have a good system if you're interested?


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 11, 2012)

S tier
Transcendent tier
A+ tier
A tier
B++ tier
B+ tier
B tier

(+) tier and regular are used to split hard to separate characters... 

Plus I think only CURRENT power levels should be allowed i.e Naruto is rated once as his current power level, not 3 times i.e KCM Naruto, BM Naruto, SM Naruto


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 11, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Plus I think only CURRENT power levels should be allowed i.e Naruto is rated once as his current power level, not 3 times i.e KCM Naruto, BM Naruto, SM Naruto



I definitely agree with this.


----------



## Sanjithehunter (Aug 11, 2012)

We should start off with characters who have a defined spot on tier lists and move from there, like tobi, naruto and nagato so you wont run into trouble with conflicting placements later.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 11, 2012)

Oh how joyess it will be rating Itachi :/


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 11, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Oh how joyess it will be rating Itachi :/



Dont forget Nagato and Minato :/


----------



## Turrin (Aug 11, 2012)

JuubiSage said:


> I definitely agree with this.



When we get to discussing such characters remind me of this and I'll make sure to put it to a vote. 



Sanjithehunter said:


> We should start off with characters who have a defined spot on tier lists and move from there, like tobi, naruto and nagato so you wont run into trouble with conflicting placements later.



The way i'm thinking of doing it is starting off with the obvious highest characters and obvious lowest characters. Than working towards the middle.


----------



## Octavian (Aug 11, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian [6]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers: Mio [1]


*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character:

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, Mio, Octavian [7]

5 Characters: Turrin, KH [2]

8 Characters:


*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH, Mio, Octavian [6]

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade [3]

5 Days:


*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian [6]

No: Mio [1]


----------



## Sanjithehunter (Aug 11, 2012)

Turrin said:


> When we get to discussing such characters remind me of this and I'll make sure to put it to a vote.
> 
> 
> 
> The way i'm thinking of doing it is starting off with the obvious highest characters and obvious lowest characters. Than working towards the middle.



Yeah thats what i was thinking.


----------



## SaVaGe609 (Aug 11, 2012)

I vote for letter grades. Kage level creates too much confusion. It's a title not a level. Even worse, Sannin level


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 11, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Like I said, I personally think you make a fair point. However if we were to only rank characters whose placement has explicitly been given to us, it would become impossible to create a tier list



Most character comparisons have *not* been given to us; even Itachi vs. Konohamaru has not been given to us, although it's clear to any sane person which one is stronger.



> and if we try to account for the ambiguity by making incredibly broad tiers, I believe it drains some of the fun out of this process.



There's no other way to do it fairly; just having everybody who cares to post about it vote on what they think the list should be like is only going to result in an inconsistent final product that *nobody* likes.



> So all I can do for you is put the option you suggested up for vote alongside other options discussed. If your option gets the most votes than cool we'll role with it. If another option wins with less broad tiers than we'll just have to strive as a community to count for the ambiguity as much as possible within the confines of those tier brackets. Than we can always go back and revise the tier list.
> 
> That's all I really have to say about this issue.



Fine.



Turrin said:


> Since this is the Library we will take a more holistic approach. Incorporating feats hype statement portrayal etc



This is only going to complicate things exponentially.

Hype isn't exactly possible to quantify, so there *will* be cases where apparent contradictions arise.

We need to be careful about weighting the hype.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 11, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Most character comparisons have *not* been given to us; *even Itachi vs. Konohamaru has not been given to us, although it's clear to any sane person which one is stronger*.


And this is what I was saying before: For some people its crystal clear that X-character > Y-character. 



> There's no other way to do it fairly; just having everybody who cares to post about it vote on what they think the list should be like is only going to result in an inconsistent final product that nobody likes.


The KC seems to get along just fine doing things from a vote; we won't know until we try. Plus for the third time this is what revisions were made for.



> We need to be careful about weighting the hype.


And my hope is that if we have enough people invested in making this a quality list we will be.



SaVaGe609 said:


> I vote for letter grades. Kage level creates too much confusion. It's a title not a level. Even worse, Sannin level


I appreciate the enthusiasm and that many people are voting, but try to follow the stated format for voting otherwise you will run the risk of your voting being overlooked in the tally


----------



## StuckInADaze (Aug 11, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze [7]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers: Mio [1]


*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character:

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, Mio, Octavian, StuckInADaze [8]

5 Characters: Turrin, KH [2]

8 Characters:


*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH, Mio, Octavian [6]

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, StuckInADaze [4]

5 Days:


*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid?* (with the exception of this vote of course)

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze [7]

No: Mio [1]


----------



## Kanki (Aug 11, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG [8]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers: Mio [1]


*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character:

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, Mio, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG [9]

5 Characters: Turrin, KH [2]

8 Characters:


*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH, Mio, Octavian [6]

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, StuckInADaze, KIG [5]

5 Days:


*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG [8]

No: Mio [1]


----------



## Vash (Aug 11, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak [9]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers: Mio [1]

*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character:

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, Mio, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak [10]

5 Characters: Turrin, KH [2]

8 Characters:

*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH, Mio, Octavian, Jak [7]

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, StuckInADaze, KIG [5]

5 Days:

*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG [8]

No: Mio, Jak [2]


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 11, 2012)

I cant see how this will work, all Itachi tard will want him above Nagato and Kabuto, even though logically in a 1v1 either would kill Itachi, so whats the system?

I think we should first place them based on feats only, the alter them based on a 1v1 scenario after initially placement.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 12, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> I cant see how this will work, all Itachi tard will want him above Nagato and Kabuto, even though logically in a 1v1 either would kill Itachi, so whats the system?
> 
> I think we should first place them based on feats only, the alter them based on a 1v1 scenario after initially placement.


Let's not get into this discussion at this point and time, since I don't want this to turn into Itachi vs X-character thread. All I can say is that we'll have to see how it goes and than address things in revisions.


----------



## Luftwaffles (Aug 12, 2012)

I'm all for this and for the S, A, B etc.. Ranking System. This could take the entire year...

​


----------



## Samehada (Aug 12, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> I cant see how this will work, all Itachi tard will want him above Nagato and Kabuto, even though logically in a 1v1 either would kill Itachi, so whats the system?
> 
> I think we should first place them based on feats only, the alter them based on a 1v1 scenario after initially placement.



I second this completely. Personal tier lists don't create a problem as so many accept it as a single persons opinion. If we have an official tier list, it will create a lot more intense and harmful arguments. People will also use this list as "fact" to support their "Itachi > Nagato" threads and such. If anything, it may certainly increase the threads we are trying to kill off in the Konoha Library. 

But, to be on topic. I agree with a letter system rather than "Kage" and "God" tiers. So +1 on that idea for me.


----------



## Naruto (Aug 12, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Since this is the Library we will take a more holistic approach. Incorporating feats hype statement portrayal etc



Agreed.

Also I will obviously vote for the grading method I suggested.


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 12, 2012)

What Tier List Brackets Should we use?

Letter Grades: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak [9], Jimbob631

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers: Mio [1]

How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?

1 Character:

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, Mio, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak [10]

5 Characters: Turrin, KH [2], Jimbob631

8 Characters:

How Long Should Voting Be Open For?

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH, Mio, Octavian, Jak [7], Jimbob631

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, StuckInADaze, KIG [5]

5 Days:

Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG [8], Jimbob631

No: Mio, Jak [2]


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 12, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

 Letter Grades: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak [9], Jimbob631, JuubiSage

 Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

 Classes:

 Broad (or Video Game) Tiers: Mio [1]

* How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

 1 Character:

 3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, Mio, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak [10], JuubiSage

 5 Characters: Turrin, KH [2], Jimbob631

 8 Characters:

* How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

 1 Day:

 2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH, Mio, Octavian, Jak [7], Jimbob631, JuubiSage

 3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, StuckInADaze, KIG [5]

 5 Days:

* Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

 Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG [8], Jimbob631, JuubiSage

 No: Mio, Jak [2]


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 12, 2012)

Turrin said:


> And this is what I was saying before: For some people its crystal clear that X-character > Y-character.



It's not always crystal clear to everybody, though. And different people are very often "crystal clear" about the completely opposite thing.


----------



## Melodie (Aug 12, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak , Jimbob631, JuubiSage, Melodie [12]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers: Mio [1]

*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character:

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, Mio, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak , JuubiSage, Melodie [11]

5 Characters: Turrin, KH [2], Jimbob631

8 Characters:

*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH, Mio, Octavian, Jak [7], Jimbob631, JuubiSage

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, StuckInADaze, KIG, Melodie [6]

5 Days:

*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG , Jimbob631, JuubiSage, Melodie [11]

No: Mio, Jak [2]


----------



## Ghost (Aug 12, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak , Jimbob631, JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki [13]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers: Mio [1]

*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character:

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, Mio, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak , JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki [12]

5 Characters: Turrin, KH [2], Jimbob631

8 Characters:
*
How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH, Mio, Octavian, Jak [7], Jimbob631, JuubiSage

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, StuckInADaze, KIG, Melodie, Shirosaki [7]

5 Days:

*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG , Jimbob631, JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki [12]

No: Mio, Jak [2]


----------



## Darth (Aug 12, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Darth Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak , Jimbob631, JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki [13]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers: Mio [1]

*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character: Darth [1]

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, Mio, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak , JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki [12]

5 Characters: Turrin, KH [2], Jimbob631

8 Characters:

*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH, Mio, Octavian, Jak [7], Jimbob631, JuubiSage

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, StuckInADaze, KIG, Melodie, Shirosaki, Darth [8]

5 Days:

*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG , Jimbob631, JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki, Darth [13]

No: Mio, Jak [2]


----------



## Edward Nygma (Aug 12, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Darth Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak , Jimbob631, JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki [13]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers: Mio [1]

*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character: Darth [1]

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, Mio, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak , JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki [12]

5 Characters: Turrin, KH, Jimbob631 [3]

8 Characters:

*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH, Mio, Octavian, Jak, Jimbob631, JuubiSage [9]

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, StuckInADaze, KIG, Melodie, Shirosaki, Darth [8]

5 Days:

*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG , Jimbob631, JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki, Darth [13]

No: Mio, Jak [2]



Count was off on a couple of the polls. Fixed.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 12, 2012)

What Tier List Brackets Should we use?

Letter Grades: Darth Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak , Jimbob631, JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki , shintebukuro, SaVaGe609, ☯The Heartbreak Kid☯, Samehada [17]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK [2]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers: Mio, Naruto [2]

How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?

1 Character: Darth [1]

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, Mio, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak , JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki, shintebukuro [13]

5 Characters: Turrin, KH, Jimbob631 [3]

8 Characters:

How Long Should Voting Be Open For?

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH, Mio, Octavian, Jak, Jimbob631, JuubiSage, shintebukuro [10]

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, StuckInADaze, KIG, Melodie, Shirosaki, Darth, shintebukuro [9]

5 Days:

Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG , Jimbob631, JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki, Darth, shintebukuro [14]

No: Mio, Jak [2]

Updated the list with a few votes that missed the format.  Also it looks like the answer to most questions are a bit obvious at this point, though I'm going to leave the voting a while longer, because 2-3 days are close.


----------



## Fatal Warrior (Aug 12, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Darth Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak , Jimbob631, JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki , shintebukuro, SaVaGe609, ☯The Heartbreak Kid☯, Samehada, Fatal Warrior [18]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK, Fatal Warrior [3]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers: Mio, Naruto [2]

*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character: Darth [1]

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, Mio, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak , JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki, shintebukuro, Fatal Warrior [14]

5 Characters: Turrin, KH, Jimbob631 [3]

8 Characters:

*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH, Mio, Octavian, Jak, Jimbob631, JuubiSage, shintebukuro [10]

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, StuckInADaze, KIG, Melodie, Shirosaki, Darth, shintebukuro, Fatal Warrior [10]

5 Days:

*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG , Jimbob631, JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki, Darth, shintebukuro, Fatal Warrior [15]

No: Mio, Jak [2]


----------



## Naruto (Aug 12, 2012)

I want to say something important:

The Library is not a battledome. I want to differentiate our section from the rest. Whatever conclusions we may come to as a community will serve as nothing more than a semi-organized display of the popular opinion of our section. An aggregate compromise rather than an agreement.

When we finally have something up and going, I will want some space in the OP to appease newcomers and established members alike that we welcome different points of view.

This is meant to be a guide that gives a general idea to the uneducated reader, not the bible of the Narutoverse food chain. Whoever is willing to interpret the manga in any other way, *should*. We need to foster an environment where people aren't afraid of speaking their mind just because the rest of the section thinks differently.

That is all.


----------



## Vice (Aug 12, 2012)

This might sound stupid, but why not use averages? It's fair and takes into account everyone's vote.

What I mean is let's say five people rank current Naruto and for the sake of argument they each rank him in the top five but let's say two people have him third overall, two people have him fourth and the last person ranks him fifth. That means he is ranked at 3, 3, 4, 4, 5. What I'm suggesting is that we find the total and get an average. In this case Naruto would average out at a 3.80. Now let's say current Tobi is ranked by the same five at 1, 2, 2, 3, 3. This would average him out at 2.20 so then we'd rank them at:

Current Tobi - 2.20
Current Naruto - 3.80

And then we'd continue on like such for every character. It's fair, takes everyone's opinion into account and gives us a way to rank them specifically.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 12, 2012)

Naruto said:
			
		

> I want to say something important:
> 
> The Library is not a battledome. I want to differentiate our section from the rest. Whatever conclusions we may come to as a community will serve as nothing more than a semi-organized display of the popular opinion of our section. An aggregate compromise rather than an agreement.
> 
> ...



Thank God for you. 

But something I would also like for this tier list is for it to be *completely devoid of battledome reasoning.* It should be a compromise of what every member in the library thinks, but the basis for anyone's opinion shouldn't be like: "Well Kakuzu is simply too versatile to be considered on so-and-so's level, and he could easily beat x and y, so I think he's on B+ tier."

I know that's hard to separate from a lot of people on this forum, but it should definitely be encouraged. I think this tier list should look to describe the _author's intent_ as interpreted by the forum members.



Ezekial said:


> I cant see how this will work, all Itachi tard will want him above Nagato and Kabuto, even though logically in a 1v1 either would kill Itachi, so whats the system?
> 
> I think we should first place them based on feats only, the alter them based on a 1v1 scenario after initially placement.



What you're describing is the Battledome Tier list. 



			
				Vice said:
			
		

> This might sound stupid, but why not use averages? It's fair and takes into account everyone's vote.
> 
> What I mean is let's say five people rank current Naruto and for the sake of argument they each rank him in the top five but let's say two people have him third overall, two people have him fourth and the last person ranks him fifth. That means he is ranked at 3, 3, 4, 4, 5. What I'm suggesting is that we find the total and get an average. In this case Naruto would average out at a 3.80. Now let's say current Tobi is ranked by the same five at 1, 2, 2, 3, 3. This would average him out at 2.20 so then we'd rank them at:
> 
> ...



I support this.


----------



## Naruto (Aug 12, 2012)

Vice said:


> This might sound stupid, but why not use averages? It's fair and takes into account everyone's vote.
> 
> What I mean is let's say five people rank current Naruto and for the sake of argument they each rank him in the top five but let's say two people have him third overall, two people have him fourth and the last person ranks him fifth. That means he is ranked at 3, 3, 4, 4, 5. What I'm suggesting is that we find the total and get an average. In this case Naruto would average out at a 3.80. Now let's say current Tobi is ranked by the same five at 1, 2, 2, 3, 3. This would average him out at 2.20 so then we'd rank them at:
> 
> ...



I'm okay with this, let's see what everybody else thinks.


----------



## Ptolemy (Aug 12, 2012)

I'd just like to chip in that I think it's necessary to make sure that people are clear about what placement on a particular tier means. Rather than just over needlessly separating characters (so for example S+, S, S-, A+, A, A-, ect) each tier should distinguish a general level of fighting.  Otherwise it's just going to add a huge degree of debate about little micro placements rather than a overview of how characters are generally perceived.  

Take a look at this  simplified tier list (purely from a structural point of view)


*Legendary* 
Madara/Hashirama/Tobi

*Exceptionally Strong*
Nagato /Minato/Itachi/Killer Bee

*Powerful*
Gokage/Former Kages/Weaker Akatsuki Members

*Influential*
Chiyo/Zabuza/Yamato//Darui/Dan

*Fodder*
Generic Chunnin


Everyone on a particular tier should be able to fight any else on the tier on a roughly even fight, and should not be beaten unless the other person has a particular advantage or is using their best techniques. Anyone on a tier lower should be able to threaten or challenge those on an above tier, but should inevitably loose unless they have a particular advantage or unless it's 2 or 3 vs 1. Anyone two tiers below should be outright beaten or stomped from those two tiers above.

So to give examples:

People should have little debate that the Mizukage is stronger than Zabuza or that Sasori is stronger than Chiyo. However, the difference between both sets of characters is not large enough that Zabuza or Chiyo should be beaten without significant effort on the part of the Mizukage or Sasori. However,  Nagato should be able to beat both Chiyo and Zabuza with relatively little effort, but should have a tougher time against the Mizukage or Sasori.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 12, 2012)

*What Tier List Brackets Should we use?*

Letter Grades: Darth Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak , Jimbob631, JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki , shintebukuro, SaVaGe609, ☯The Heartbreak Kid☯, Samehada, Fatal Warrior, Ichliebe [19]

Roman Normals: Turrin, WPK, Fatal Warrior [3]

Classes:

Broad (or Video Game) Tiers: Mio, Naruto [2]

*How Many Characters Should We Discuss/Vote On at One Time?*

1 Character: Darth [1]

3 Characters: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, Mio, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG, Jak , JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki, shintebukuro, Fatal Warrior, Ichliebe [15]

5 Characters: Turrin, KH, Jimbob631 [3]

8 Characters:

*How Long Should Voting Be Open For?*

1 Day:

2 Days: Turrin, Hossaim, Datenshi Uchiha, KH, Mio, Octavian, Jak, Jimbob631, JuubiSage, shintebukuro [10]

3 Days: Turrin, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, StuckInADaze, KIG, Melodie, Shirosaki, Darth, shintebukuro, Fatal Warrior, Ichliebe [11]

5 Days:

*Should People be Required to Provide Reasoning For Their Votes for them to be Valid? (with the exception of this vote of course)*

Yes: Turrin, Datenshi Uchiha, WPK, Godaime Tsunade, KH, Octavian, StuckInADaze, KIG , Jimbob631, JuubiSage, Melodie, Shirosaki, Darth, shintebukuro, Fatal Warrior, Ichliebe [16]

No: Mio, Jak [2]


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 12, 2012)

Vice said:


> This might sound stupid, but why not use averages? It's fair and takes into account everyone's vote.
> 
> What I mean is let's say five people rank current Naruto and for the sake of argument they each rank him in the top five but let's say two people have him third overall, two people have him fourth and the last person ranks him fifth. That means he is ranked at 3, 3, 4, 4, 5. What I'm suggesting is that we find the total and get an average. In this case Naruto would average out at a 3.80. Now let's say current Tobi is ranked by the same five at 1, 2, 2, 3, 3. This would average him out at 2.20 so then we'd rank them at:
> 
> ...



We could do this and make the tier list number based.

Tier 10(God, Top tier, etc.)
Tier 9(Demi-god, etc)
Tier 8(High kage)
Tier 7(Middle kage)
Tier 6(Low kage)
Tier 5(Special jounin)
Tier 4(Jounin)
Tier 3(Chunnin)
Teir 2(Gennin
Tier 1(Fodder, they deserve one)

Then make it where people rate the character on a 10 scale and support it instead of "Itachi solos 10/10", "Meteor GG 10/10" and make reasonings like that banned. Then average the points and put them in the tier, 5.0 through 5.9 goes in tier 5 and so forth. This is what I see working the best.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 12, 2012)

I think only certain people should be allowed to "vote".


----------



## Turrin (Aug 13, 2012)

Alright it's been enough time where I'm going to closet he first round of votes. But before we enter Phase II there are two more things I want people to vote on:

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking ?*

Yes: Turrin

No:

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E.  For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc... on the tier list)?*

Yes: Turrin

No:


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 13, 2012)

Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim [2]

No: [0]

Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc... on the tier list)?

Yes: Turrin [1]

No: Hossaim [1]
______________


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 13, 2012)

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK [3]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc... on the tier list)?*

Yes: Turrin, WPK [2]

No: Hossaim [1]


Only voting yes on that second one in the hope that people don't go overboard on the amount of incarnations. I don't want to be ranking the rookies in the CE or Naruto or Sasuke in FoD or anything silly like that. For everyone but Orochimaru and maybe a few other exceptions, we should limit it to just one part I incarnation.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 13, 2012)

My preferred tier system is the following:

- Beyond kage level (e.g. Edo Madara)
- Kage level
----top tier (e.g. Hashirama)
----mid tier (e.g. Itachi)
----low tier (e.g. Kakashi)
- jonin level
----top (e.g. Darui)
----mid (e.g. Yamato)
----low (e.g. Shikamaru)
- chunin level
----top
----mid
----low
- genin level


----------



## Ghost (Aug 13, 2012)

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Shirosaki [4]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc... on the tier list)?*

Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki [3]

No: Hossaim [1]


----------



## Naruto (Aug 13, 2012)

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto [4]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc... on the tier list)?*

Yes: Turrin, WPK [2]

No: Hossaim, Naruto [2]


----------



## Melodie (Aug 13, 2012)

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melodie [6]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc... on the tier list)?*

Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki [3]

No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie [3]​


----------



## Vice (Aug 13, 2012)

Naruto said:


> *Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*
> 
> Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto [4]
> 
> ...





Melodie said:


> *Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*
> 
> Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Melodie [5]
> 
> ...



Just to let you guys know you should probably do a quick edit and add in Shiro's votes here. His/hers isn't being accounted for.


----------



## Melodie (Aug 13, 2012)

Didn't see it. I did edit it anyways.​


----------



## Ginkurage (Aug 13, 2012)

wibisana said:


> when I played Megaman.exe battle network
> 
> they have rank list like this
> SSS
> ...


I vote for this, MMBN for life. 

Not to mention it just looks better than all those pluses and minuses.



Melodie said:


> *Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*
> 
> Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melodie, Blue Bombardment [7]
> 
> ...


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 13, 2012)

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melodie, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro [8]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc... on the tier list)?*

Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro [5]

No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie [3]​


----------



## αce (Aug 13, 2012)

Depends on the number of incarnations.
Don't bother making 5 different Naruto's. Base, SM and his Kyuubi modes seem like enough.


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 13, 2012)

Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?

    Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melodie, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, Jimbob631 [9] 

    No: [0]

    Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc... on the tier list)?

    Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, Jimbob631 [6]

    No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie [3]


----------



## Luftwaffles (Aug 13, 2012)

EoS Juugo should be on that list ..preferably God-Tier 



    Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?

    Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melodie, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro,* HBK* [8]

    No: [0]

    Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc... on the tier list)?

    Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro [5]

    No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie, *HBK* [3]


----------



## Mio (Aug 13, 2012)

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melodie, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, HBK, Mio [10]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc... on the tier list)?*

Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro [5]

No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie, HBK, Mio [5]


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 13, 2012)

Is there a particular way people want to start ranking characters?  What I mean is what characters do we start looking at first when making the list.  I feel like going chronologically is the best way to go about it, so like starting with the Zabuza arc and going from there.  

Also that brings up the question will we be ranking part 1 versions of characters as well?


----------



## Maerala (Aug 13, 2012)

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melodie, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage [11]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc... on the tier list)?*

Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro [5]

No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage [6]


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 13, 2012)

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melodie, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha [12]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc.) on the tier list?*

Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro [5]

No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha [7]


We could place each incarnation and then average the current ones (Base, SM, KCM) to assess the character's overall placement.


----------



## Octavian (Aug 13, 2012)

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melodie, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, Octavian [13]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc.) on the tier list?*

Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, Octavian [6]

No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha [7]


----------



## StuckInADaze (Aug 13, 2012)

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melode, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, Octavian, StuckInADaze [14]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc.) on the tier list?*

Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, Octavian [6]

No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, StuckInADaze [8]


----------



## Vice (Aug 13, 2012)

I'm just going to say that if we're going to bother to do an "official" tier list then we might as well make a complete one.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 13, 2012)

I'd just like to say that I think it's actually _important_ that we rank different forms of characters. 

This entire tier list is non-battledome, correct? Well, what that means is that we're judging characters based on comparisons made in the actual series, and sometimes those comparisons will be in relation to different forms.

It would be useful to have a rating for SM Naruto, for instance, because then if someone were to rate Raikage, they'd know to judge him in relation to SM Naruto.


----------



## Black☆Star (Aug 14, 2012)

Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?[/B]

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melode, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, Octavian, StuckInADaze, Black☆Star  [15]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc.) on the tier list?*

Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, Octavian [6]

No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, StuckInADaze, Black☆Star [9]


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Aug 14, 2012)

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*[/B]

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melode, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, Octavian, StuckInADaze, Black☆Star , Sachin [16]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc.) on the tier list?
*
Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, Octavian , Sachin [7]

No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, StuckInADaze, Black☆Star [9]


----------



## Vice (Aug 14, 2012)

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melode, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, Octavian, StuckInADaze, Black☆Star , Sachin, Vice [17]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc.) on the tier list?
*
Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, Octavian , Sachin, Vice [8]

No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, StuckInADaze, Black☆Star [9]


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 14, 2012)

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melode, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, Octavian, StuckInADaze, Black☆Star , Sachin, Vice, JuubiSage [18]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc.) on the tier list?*

Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, Octavian , Sachin, Vice [8]

No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, StuckInADaze, Black☆Star, JuubiSage [10]


There's no such thing as base. There's just characters and their skills, jutsus and powers.


----------



## Vice (Aug 14, 2012)

Look I've said it before and I'll say it again: if we're going to bother with calling this list "official" then it's gotta be complete, so how about this? For those that voted no we run through all the main, current incarnations first and get them ranked then if they don't want to continue they can call it a day and those that voted yes can continue ranking until the list is complete. Bam, list is complete, those that voted no don't have to bother with it and everyone's happy.


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 14, 2012)

Vice said:


> Look I've said it before and I'll say it again: if we're going to bother with calling this list "official" then it's gotta be complete, so how about this? For those that voted no we run through all the main, current incarnations first and get them ranked then if they don't want to continue they can call it a day and those that voted yes can continue ranking until the list is complete. Bam, list is complete, those that voted no don't have to bother with it and everyone's happy.



How is it incomplete if something like SM Naruto or Hebi Sasuke is missing? There's no such thing in the manga as SM Naruto or Hebi Sasuke. There's Naruto and Sasuke, that's it.

Just vote and agree with the end result, no need to bitch about it if you're losing.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 14, 2012)

Vice said:


> Look I've said it before and I'll say it again: if we're going to bother with calling this list "official" then it's gotta be complete, so how about this? For those that voted no we run through all the main, current incarnations first and get them ranked then if they don't want to continue they can call it a day and those that voted yes can continue ranking until the list is complete. Bam, list is complete, those that voted no don't have to bother with it and everyone's happy.


I think there is merit in what your saying as well as what Juubi sage is saying. Personally I tend to agree with you more as that is how I placed my vote, however the way this works is that we voted on things, so I'm not going to change things now and ignore peoples votes. So just place your vote and try to convince others to vote your way if your that determined, but the majority will decided which way we go.

PS @Everyone: It has been decided for character discussion and voting we are going to leave things open for 3 days, but I am wondering how long to leave this specific vote open for. I think i'm going to leave it open till at least tomorrow, but I don't think we need to go a full three days with it.

Also any suggestions for the first 3 characters we should discuss are welcomed. Personally the ones I'm think of starting out with are the highest and the lowest. So like Kin (Pretty Obvios Candidate for D- Tier), Zaku (Candidate for D- to D Tier), and Rikudo Sennin (Pretty Obvious Candidate for S+ Tier) are the first 3 I'm considering.


----------



## Zenith (Aug 14, 2012)

this thread is still open because people still have to see the light

[sp]Itachi solo'es

Forever and always[/sp]


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 14, 2012)

JuubiSage said:


> How is it incomplete if something like SM Naruto or Hebi Sasuke is missing? There's no such thing in the manga as SM Naruto or Hebi Sasuke. There's Naruto and Sasuke, that's it.
> 
> Just vote and agree with the end result, no need to bitch about it if you're losing.





			
				me said:
			
		

> I'd just like to say that I think it's actually important that we rank different forms of characters.
> 
> This entire tier list is non-battledome, correct? Well, what that means is that we're judging characters based on comparisons made in the actual series, and sometimes those comparisons will be in relation to different forms.
> 
> It would be useful to have a rating for SM Naruto, for instance, because then if someone were to rate Raikage, they'd know to judge him in relation to SM Naruto.



We need all the starting points we can get. Sometimes different forms of characters can help people judge better. 

Frankly, it's entirely fucking necessary to have all forms of characters so we can make an accurate list. The difference between base Naruto, SM Naruto, and KCM Naruto will pave the way for people to rank Kakashi/Raikage/Killer Bee. 

Without that kind of distinction, we will have people arbitrarily placing characters, and then the list will be pointless.


----------



## Vice (Aug 14, 2012)

JuubiSage said:


> How is it incomplete if something like SM Naruto or Hebi Sasuke is missing? There's no such thing in the manga as SM Naruto or Hebi Sasuke. There's Naruto and Sasuke, that's it.



You're just oversimplifying things to oversimplify things. SM Naruto and Hebi Sasuke exist as different incarnations of the characters with a different level of strength just as current Naruto is different from Naruto from chapter 1, and they deserve to be ranked accordingly. 



> Just vote and agree with the end result, no need to bitch about it if you're losing.



Not bitching just fail to see why every significant incarnation of a character can't be ranked.



Turrin said:


> I think there is merit in what your saying as well as what Juubi sage is saying. Personally I tend to agree with you more as that is how I placed my vote, however the way this works is that we voted on things, so I'm not going to change things now and ignore peoples votes. So just place your vote and try to convince others to vote your way if your that determined, but the majority will decided which way we go.



Fair enough.



Lt Iceman said:


> this thread is still open because people still have to see the light
> 
> [sp]Itachi solo'es
> 
> Forever and always[/sp]



Go away.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 14, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> We need all the starting points we can get. Sometimes different forms of characters can help people judge better.
> 
> Frankly, it's entirely fucking necessary to have all forms of characters so we can make an accurate list. The difference between base Naruto, SM Naruto, and KCM Naruto will pave the way for people to rank Kakashi/Raikage/Killer Bee.
> 
> Without that kind of distinction, we will have people arbitrarily placing characters, and then the list will be pointless.


I don't think we need to rank those forms, to make arguments surrounding those forums; if you get my meaning.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 14, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I don't think we need to rank those forms, to make arguments surrounding those forums; if you get my meaning.



I think I know what you're trying to say, but I don't know why you think that.

As far as I'm concerned, judging Kakashi and Raikage is as simple as saying "Well, Kakashi is closer to base Naruto, while Raikage would be closer to SM Naruto, thus Raikage must be a solid tier stronger than Kakashi." 

And not just that, but if we don't fill in all the holes, then we're risking having a really shitty list. We need to rank individual forms to allow for their insertion if desired, and if we don't work around them then they'll never fit in well if we want to place them retroactively.


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 14, 2012)

Someone must have copied the wrong one at some point cuz my votes aren't being counted.


----------



## Vice (Aug 14, 2012)

jimbob631 said:


> Someone must have copied the wrong one at some point cuz my votes aren't being counted.



*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*

Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melode, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, Octavian, StuckInADaze, Black☆Star , Sachin, Vice, JuubiSage, jimbob631 [19]

No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc.) on the tier list?*

Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, Octavian , Sachin, Vice, jimbob631 [9]

No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, StuckInADaze, Black☆Star, JuubiSage [10]

Fixed.


----------



## StuckInADaze (Aug 14, 2012)

Alright, fuck it, changing my vote.

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc.) on the tier list?*

Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, Octavian , Sachin, Vice, jimbob631, StuckInADaze [10]

No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, Black☆Star, JuubiSage [9]

I just hope we don't go overboard with it. I mean, I see this as only really being necessary for the main characters. I don't see the point in having things like base Jiraiya or base Itachi.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 14, 2012)

1. Yes

2. Yes


----------



## Zenith (Aug 14, 2012)

I am not leaving Vice


----------



## Octavian (Aug 14, 2012)

I think ranking Naruto and Sasuke's various incarnations will actually help us in building the tier list. Those two have the greatest panel time ( in terms of battles) and they've fought ninjas ranging from jounin to akatsuki/ kages to tobi. also owing to their greater relative panel time, we should be able to more accurately assess their levels and build the others around them. At the same time, we shouldn't go overboard with this and include stuff like base jiraiya or base itachi or armless oro etc.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 14, 2012)

Vice said:


> Look I've said it before and I'll say it again: if we're going to bother with calling this list "official" then it's gotta be complete,


Which is why I suggest ranking the different incarnations within the character's thread but overall positioning determined by the average of current ones.

The problem with listing any and every one on the main list will just unnecessarily clutter things. There are already plenty of characters; we don't really need more stretching the list.


----------



## Naruto (Aug 15, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> The problem with listing any and every one on the main list will just unnecessarily clutter things. There are already plenty of characters; we don't really need more stretching the list.



I agree.

Listing all the forms is going to make the list overly complicated.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 15, 2012)

We don't need to break down every character in the series if we're going to do different forms.

It's silly for us to avoid listing different forms because of clutter when listing these forms in the first place is going to help people make better judgment calls. Deidara, Kakuzu, and Kakashi are all characters that will end up being ranked wrong if there's no incentive for the people rating to keep them close to base Naruto and Sasuke.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 15, 2012)

No, only current power levels should be implemented, 5 different versions of Naruto and Sasuke is retarded


----------



## Immortal (Aug 15, 2012)

I think perhaps we should use different versions of Naruto and Sasuke as a tool, but in the final product, we only keep the most current up-to-date version.


----------



## Rama (Aug 15, 2012)

This should be fun if it all works out

*Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?*

 Yes: Turrin, Hossaim, WPK, Naruto, Shirosaki, Melode, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, Octavian, StuckInADaze, Black☆Star , Sachin, Vice, JuubiSage, jimbob631, Kakashi Hatake, Rama [21]

 No: [0]

*Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc.) on the tier list?*

 Yes: Turrin, WPK, Shirosaki, Blue Bombardment, shintebukuro, Octavian , Sachin, Vice, jimbob631, StuckInADaze, Kakashi Hatake [11]

 No: Hossaim, Naruto, Melodie, HBK, Mio, Godaime Hokage, Dragonus Nesha, Black☆Star, JuubiSage, Rama [10]


----------



## Golden Circle (Aug 15, 2012)

Instead of asking for votes, the correct way to do this is ask for straight out lists, and place all the data in a matrix indicating who is better than who how many times, and somehow extract data from said Matrix.

I dunno how to do it though; the closest I've come to doing something is accurately predicting the winner of a soccer tournament after only the first round. (which is possible by the way.) We should ask Pokemon if we want to do it correctly.

And as far as multiple versions of each character goes, that's too much.


To recap, No and No from me.


----------



## Vice (Aug 15, 2012)

Everyone can post their lists and I'll average them out if it's alright. I don't really mind, I like doing shit like that anyway.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Aug 15, 2012)

Is voting still open? If so these are my votes.

Should Character Placement be decided by taking the Average of Votes?

Agreed.

Should each incarnation of a certain character considered (I.E. For example should we place SM Naruto, Base Naruto, KCM Naruto, etc.) on the tier list?

Agreed.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 15, 2012)

Some time tomorrow I'm going to up date the intro post with all the things we voted on, so any last minute votes on the current topic should be cast now. Also tomorrow I will be posting the first 3 characters up for discussion.


----------



## Garfield (Aug 16, 2012)

I rather like the Top 25 approach of Sin from Sports section a lot more:  It basically eliminates the tension of creating tiers because once you decide character ordering, tiers are automatically created. What's more important is the character ordering.

And even more important than that, I think that we must do is to create matchup lookup table. What I mean for example is this: It's not necessary that a higher tier person is suitably matched up against lower tier and may lose, thus giving lesser legibility to the tier process. So instead, it's maybe more fruitful to create a vast list of matchups under each character's name and then debate either individually or in clusters, which matchup would go which way. That gives us a concrete table whenever we're discussing in threads, as to what NF canon says about char vs char.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 16, 2012)

Alright I just got a suggestion from Vice that may change things up a bit. The suggestion was why doesn't everyone post their own tier lists using the brackets we defined and than we average them out. This would be the same thing as going through all the characters and voting on them individually. The Pros to this are that it would be much faster and allow us to get a-lot of the obvious characters out of the way, than come back and discuss specific case in Phase III that may require revisions. The Con to this is we won't get to discuss each character on an individual basis before the initial vote (though we can discuss them later on if necessary in revisions).


----------



## Jad (Aug 16, 2012)

I reckon we should do this, following up on Vice and Turrins posts.

Every week 5 Members (with more than 1000 posts) should post their Tier List. The members than for the next week vote up the best Tier List out of the 5, and that best one gets put aside. Than Next week we take another 5 Members, they post their Tier List, and after a week of voting the best one gets put aside. And when we get *5 of the top tier lists* (shouldbe a couple of months before we get to this stage). We vote which of those 5 tier lists is the best one. Than that one gets put side to like the Semi-Finals. And we start again, and we keep doing this for like a year. 

Example;

*A* - Votes: 120
*B* - Votes: 30
*C* - Votes: 5
*D* - Votes: 7
*E* - Votes: 2

Quarter Finals Entries: *A*

*F* - Votes: 10
*G* - Votes: 40
*H* - Votes: 1
*I* - Votes: 5
*J* - Votes: 66

Quarter Finals Entries: *A*, *J*

After few months we votes between the Quarter Final Entries, and the winner gets put in the Semi-Finals, and we start the process again, until we fill up the Semi-Finals spots (5 spots). And we vote between those Semi-Final spots to get the final tier list (or we can keep going).

Than after we get an official Tier List in the forum, we can work out how a characters gets ranked up as the manga continues~

Sorry if it's slightly confusing.

I was pretty bored typing this and half asleep xD


----------



## Naruto (Aug 16, 2012)

Jad said:


> Every week 5 Members (with more than 1000 posts) should post their Tier List. The members than for the next week vote up the best Tier List out of the 5, and that best one gets put aside. Than Next week we take another 5 Members, they post their Tier List, and after a week of voting the best one gets put aside. And when we get *5 of the top tier lists* (shouldbe a couple of months before we get to this stage). We vote which of those 5 tier lists is the best one. Than that one gets put side to like the Semi-Finals. And we start again, and we keep doing this for like a year.



Ugh.

This is not an aggregate Tier list. People will just end voting for what they disagree the least, and in the end it will not represent an average at all.

Not to mention it will take forever.


----------



## Vice (Aug 16, 2012)

Like i told turrin, if people post individual lists i can take care of the averaging to save you guys the work. We would have to designate a numerical limit for each tier such as S+ is limited to those who average out 1-5, S tier will be 6-10 and so on and so forth. After we get that done i can take care of the averaging and then maybe do a per tier reveal until the full list is complete.

Like i said, i dont mind doing the work.


----------



## Naruto (Aug 16, 2012)

That might be the simplest solution, the only thing left to do after that is decide the minimum requirements for participation (enough to keep dupes as far away from it as possible but not so high that new members can't contribute), and the frequency with which any one person is allowed to update their own list (after all, things change).


----------



## Ghost (Aug 16, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> No, only current power levels should be implemented, 5 different versions of Naruto and Sasuke is retarded



BM Naruto and Sage Naruto. EMS Sasuke and Hebi Sasuke.

I don't see 10 different versions here.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 16, 2012)

Vice said:


> Like i told turrin, if people post individual lists i can take care of the averaging to save you guys the work. We would have to designate a numerical limit for each tier such as S+ is limited to those who average out 1-5, S tier will be 6-10 and so on and so forth. After we get that done i can take care of the averaging and then maybe do a per tier reveal until the full list is complete.
> 
> Like i said, i dont mind doing the work.


I not sure I understand what you mean by numerical limit. Also I have no problem doing the averaging ether, so I might just do it all myself or depending on response we can work together. But first I want to put this thing to a vote, since I want to maintain the community spirit of this type of thread. 

Also BTW the way I see it working if people agree to this is, that everyone with at least 500 posts (to prevent dupes), post their tier lists, we find the average placement of each character, creating the basis for the combined tier list.

Than if people have issues with any characters placements or they show new feats we bring them up for revision three at a time and discuss/revote on them again taking the average. 

So people need to vote on this new issue, once they do than I'll update the OP with all the decided and voted on rules and we can start the real process.


----------



## Vice (Aug 16, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I not sure I understand what you mean by numerical limit.



It's actually quite simple. Say hypothetically that S+ tier is designated a 1-5 limit and S tier is 6-10 and so on and so forth. Everyone posts their tier lists and turns out current Bijuu Mode Naruto is listed around fourth on everyone's list thus averaging out at 4.00. This average would designate that he be placed in the S+ tier because he met the 1-5 requirement. Then let's say Nagato averages out at around a 6.25. This would place him in the S tier because he met the 6-10 requirement. Then we take Tobi and say he averaged out at 3.50. Because he ranked at a 3.50 he meets the S+ requirement and since his average is higher than Naruto, he is placed ahead of him in that tier. It's not a hard process and again takes everyone's vote into consideration.



> Also I have no problem doing the averaging ether, so I might just do it all myself or depending on response we can work together. But first I want to put this thing to a vote, since I want to maintain the community spirit of this type of thread.



If we do work together we'll have to agree and adhere to a set rule and keep in contact with one another. We could then divide lists or something, find your numerical designation per character and take mine and get the final average.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 16, 2012)

Vice said:


> It's actually quite simple. Say hypothetically that S+ tier is designated a 1-5 limit and S tier is 6-10 and so on and so forth. Everyone posts their tier lists and turns out current Bijuu Mode Naruto is listed around fourth on everyone's list thus averaging out at 4.00. This average would designate that he be placed in the S+ tier because he met the 1-5 requirement. Then let's say Nagato averages out at around a 6.25. This would place him in the S tier because he met the 6-10 requirement. Then we take Tobi and say he averaged out at 3.50. Because he ranked at a 3.50 he meets the S+ requirement and since his average is higher than Naruto, he is placed ahead of him in that tier. It's not a hard process and again takes everyone's vote into consideration.


Where not listing them though, we are just ranking them. So I believe it would be easier to just average them based on the tiers like the stuff I Pm'd you.



> If we do work together we'll have to agree and adhere to a set rule and keep in contact with one another. We could then divide lists or something, find your numerical designation per character and take mine and get the final average.


I still don't get this numerical designation.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 16, 2012)

Just start with S tier with Rikudo Sennin in it, then progress down rating them on power.

Rikudo
Madara
Tobi

Then decide the parameters of each tier after their all placed in descending order based on current power level


----------



## Vice (Aug 16, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Where not listing them though, we are just ranking them. So I believe it would be easier to just average them based on the tiers like the stuff I Pm'd you.



Listing and ranking them are the same thing. If we just do it based on what you proposed then we're not really properly ranking them. We already know where most people belong as far as tiers go, what we don't know is where they rank against each other.



> I still don't get this numerical designation.



I don't understand what is so hard to get here. If someone places Bijuu Mode Naruto fourth on their tier list then he'll get a 4. If someone else places him fifth then he gets a 5. We'll then take these numbers, get an average and rank accordingly. We'll also designate a limit per tier and if their average meets the limit then they'll make that tier. Here, let's take the tiers you have in your sig:

S+
S
S-
A+
A
A-
B+
B
B-
C+
C
C-
D+
D
D-
F

Cool. Now let's say each tier is given a numerical designation as follows:

S+ (1-5)
S (6-10)
S- (11-15)
A+ (16-20)
A (21-25)
A- (26-30)
B+ (31-35)
B (36-40)
B- (41-45)
C+ (46-50)
C (51-55)
C- (56-60)
D+ (61-65)
D (66-70)
D- (71-75)
F (75+)

These of course are just hypothetical and can be changed through voting. Now just based on some of the examples I gave through your VMs this is how they'd rank:

S+ (1-5)
Rikudo Sennin - 1.00
Uchiha Madara - 2.00
Tobi - 4.33
Uzumaki Naruto (BM) - 4.50
Yakushi Kabuto (SM) - 5.67

S (6-10)
Senju Hashirama - 6.33
Uchiha Madara (EMS) - 7.33
Uzumaki Nagato - 7.33
Tobi (MS) - 9.00
Uchiha Itachi - 9.33
Six Paths of Pain - 10.00

S- (11-15)
Danzo - 11.00

A+ (16-20)
Uchiha Sasuke (MS) - 16.50

etc...

Of course this is just a small sample size with only a couple of tier lists considered, but hopefully it'll give you an idea of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Black☆Star (Aug 16, 2012)

Simple and efficient. I agree with Vice's system


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 16, 2012)

Vice said:
			
		

> We already know where most people belong as far as tiers go, what we don't know is where they rank against each other.



What?

Coming up with tiers is hard enough for most people. You can't ask them to rate each character on a numerical list.

I think coming up with a tier list that doesn't rank them numerically will be enough of a challenge. I, personally, like to think that some characters all occupy a tier together, and that there doesn't need to be an order of strength among that tier specifically. 

In fact, trying to rate characters that specifically cannot possibly come from the logic that this tier list is supposed to be using...people will be putting X higher than Y because of hypothetical battles if you're asking them to distinguish things that cannot possibly be drawn from the author's intent.


----------



## Vice (Aug 16, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> What?
> 
> Coming up with tiers is hard enough for most people. You can't ask them to rate each character on a numerical list.
> 
> ...



They're not dealing with the numbers, I will be. All they have to do is rank them. This isn't hard to grasp.

All you have to do is post your tier list, I'll take care of everything else.


----------



## Rama (Aug 16, 2012)

After reading it, Vice's idea sounds good, for phase 1 of course.  It would make for a good pre-list that we can use as a starting line.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 16, 2012)

@Vice 

Sorry but what your suggesting is creating "power levels" for charactes as well as tier and that is not the objective of this thread and it never will be as it over-complicates things to much and make the thread far more liable to turn into a shit storm. 

The point is to place characters on Tiers and that is it. Hence why if we go with the your idea to average out a Prelim list, the way it's going to work is.

1. Everyone posts their own Tier List of Characters S+ - D-
2. S+ - D- is assigned a point score fitting it's letter grade:

S+ (109)
S (105)
S- (100)
A+ (99)
A (95)
A- (90)
B+ (89)
B (85)
B- (80)
C+ (79)
C (75)
C- (70)
D+ (69)
D (65)
D- (60)

Than each characters placement will be determined by the average of the characters scores throughout all tier lists. 

It's ether this or we go back to ranking them 3 at a time, because we're not going to start ranking them even within the tiers itself and assigning numerical values to them.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 16, 2012)

*Please Vote:*

_Should we Establish a Prelim list?_

Yes:

No:

For additional information on a prelim list see these posts of mine:


----------



## Vice (Aug 16, 2012)

How is nobody but Black Star getting this? Seriously.



Turrin said:


> @Vice
> 
> Sorry but what your suggesting is creating "power levels" for charactes as well as tier and that is not the objective of this thread and it never will be as it over-complicates things to much and make the thread far more liable to turn into a shit storm.



Uh... what? I'm not creating anything, all I'm doing is averaging out the placement of character's on each list to determine where they would rank on the overall list. There's nothing complicated or made up about it.

If Naruto appears on five lists and he is ranked 4, 4, 3, 4, and 5 on each list respectively then his average is a 4.00 because all I've done was take his placement on each list, totaled it then found the average. 

Let's take your tier list for example. You currently have Tobi ranked sixth of all the other character's on your list. SuperSaiyaMan's list however has him currently ranked third. So what I'm suggesting is merely taking his placement of sixth on your list and adding it to SSM's placement of third, giving me a total of 9, then averaging it out based on total number of lists. IE:

6 + 3 = 9
9/2 = 4.50

That would put Tobi at a 4.50 average placement between the two lists. The basic premise is that I'm not making any numbers up, I'm just averaging out placements and ranking accordingly.

Where I think you're getting confused is my suggestion on separating letter grades per average placement but even that's not hard. This is all hypothetical, but I separated like this: if their average placement per list is 1-5, they're an S+ character. If their average placement is 10-15, they're an S and so on and so forth but I've already said that is hypothetical and open for vote.


----------



## Black☆Star (Aug 16, 2012)

I will use 5 shinobis as an example :

A tier list
1. Rikudou Sennin
2. Madara
3. Tobi
4. Hashirama
5. Naruto

B tier list
1. Rikudou Sennin
2. Tobi
3. Madara
4. Naruto
5. Hashirama

C tier list
1. Rikudou Sennin
2. Tobi
3. Madara
4. Naruto
5. Hashirama

D tier list
1. Rikudou Sennin
2. Madara
3. Hashirama
4. Naruto
5. Tobi

E tier list
1. Rikudou Sennin
2. Madara
3. Tobi
4. Naruto
5. Hashirama

Now their average would be :
Rikudou Sennin with an average of 1. He was ranked 1 in everyones list so:
1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 1        
5/5 = 1 
Average 1

Madara
2 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 12
12/5 = 2.4 
Average 2.4

Tobi
3 + 2 + 2 + 5 + 3 = 15
15/5 = 3
Average 3

Naruto
5 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 21
21/5 = 4.2
Average 4.2

Hashirama
4 + 5 + 5 + 3 + 5 = 22
22/5 = 4.4
Average 4.4

Now all that is left is to fit them in a tier
S+ (1-5)
Rikudou Sennin - 1
Madara - 2.4 
Tobi - 3 
Naruto - 4.2 
Hashirama - 4.4


----------



## Vice (Aug 16, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> I will use 5 shinobis as an example :
> 
> A tier list
> 1. Rikudou Sennin
> ...



Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisssssssssssss. Exactly this.


----------



## Black☆Star (Aug 16, 2012)

Rikudou Sennin mustshould have his own tier though


----------



## Vice (Aug 16, 2012)

Agreed. Him and Juubi.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 16, 2012)

The problem I see with the method is with the definition of the tiers. For example, I'd say Rikudo Sennin is in a tier of his own and yet now he's "_generalised_" to the same tier with four other people much lesser than himself. It might also occur that Orochimaru is eleventh/sixteenth/whatever and thus doesn't find himself in Jiraiya's tier simply because the tiers were pre-defined in such a way.

My point being that the 'tiers' lose their meaning. We simply get a list of sorted averages with certain ranges having certain labels. Rather, we should want the tiers to be as large as they need to be to support all the characters we feel are (almost) equivalent.





*My suggestion*
A more proper way would be to average the tier placement of each character by each poster. For example if character X is placed in the S-rank by one poster, A-rank by another and B-rank by a third poster, then in the end the character is averaged into the A-rank. 

It may be an idea to get dedicated polls for each character in which people have one vote for one rank for that specific character. The polls keep track of everything and averages are easily determined and updated. This also means there is no need for a time frame to vote on certain characters as everyone can vote at all times. Now or in a month, it doesn't matter. No-one gets left out because they weren't there at the voting time. They merely have to wait for their votes to get updated into the average.  Another advantage is that the results are open to everyone and can be checked by everyone on errors with the averaging process and so on. Finally, to have separate polls/threads for the ranking of each character means that discussion about each character can happen there and not clutter this ranking thread which should stay clean and transparent. Of course the OP of this thread should have a link to each poll.

There are some problems with this method too, however...


----------



## StuckInADaze (Aug 16, 2012)

Jad said:


> Every week 5 Members (*with more than 1000 posts*) should post their Tier List.





Turrin said:


> Also BTW the way I see it working if people agree to this is, that *everyone with at least 500 posts (to prevent dupes), post their tier lists*, we find the average placement of each character, creating the basis for the combined tier



Wait, what? 

So you want to penalize people for not being a post whore or just recently joining?

So I can vote on the format for the tier list, but not the actual tiers themselves?

Stupid idea is stupid.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 16, 2012)

Vice said:


> They're not dealing with the numbers, I will be. All they have to do is rank them. This isn't hard to grasp.
> 
> All you have to do is post your tier list, I'll take care of everything else.



Look, I'm well aware of what you're trying to do. I actually read _your_ post, but clearly you didn't read mine because you didn't grasp the argument I was trying to make at all.

I'll try again...

You're asking people to rate characters numerically. You're asking people to not just write down "tiers," but to also rate them 1-25/or whatever. That's the problem. To show it, here's my tier list:

-Rinnegan Madara
-EMS Madara, BM Naruto, Hashirama, Rinnegan Tobi
-Healthy Nagato, SM Kabuto
-etc....

Do you see the problem now?

What you're asking of people is for them to *break down their own tier lists further* than the above. You're asking me to look at EMS Madara Hashirama, BM Naruto, and Rinnegan Tobi and decide the order of strength among those 4 (even though it's impossible to discern).



			
				Sniffers said:
			
		

> My point being that the 'tiers' lose their meaning. We simply get a list of sorted averages with certain ranges having certain labels. Rather, we should want the tiers to be as large as they need to be to support all the characters we feel are (almost) equivalent.



This is also a great point by Sniffers. 

Instead of arbitrarily deciding that numbers 8-13 get to go on S- tier, we should allow for any number of character to inhabit that tier if that's what people vote on.


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 16, 2012)

Yes:

No: Hossaim [1]

Why don't we just start with 3 people, ask people to give each a number based on Turin's tiers and corresponding numbers, take the average, place them, then continue?

For example, lets stay we start off with Madara Itachi and Naruto

Id give Madara a 109
Id give Naruto a 107.65
Id give Sasuke a 106.98


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 16, 2012)

Vice and Sniffers are suggesting something similar, and I think their idea is smart. If anything, it's perfect, because we could literally average the opinion of everybody in the library.

Shintebukuro, Vice could just use the tiers themselves as an average instead of their exact position within the tiers. It would accomplish the same thing, more or less, no?​


----------



## Turrin (Aug 16, 2012)

Vice said:


> How is nobody but Black Star getting this? Seriously.


Vice I get what your saying, but we are simply not going to do it that way. The reason were not going to do it that way, is because this is a Tier List, where we ranked characters in Tiers. The purpose of this thread is not to than list these characters from 1-10 within those tiers. Why? Because the reason many people uses tiers is because they consider all the characters in that tier roughly around the same "level" and find it inaccurate to place one above thee other within those tiers. 

The other reason were not going to do it, is because it will over complicate the process since it will cause not only debates over which tier a character should be placed in, but also debates over that characters placement within those tiers, whether he/she should be 1, 2, 3, or 10. The ultimate result of this would be turning the thread into a shit storm. 

So 100% we are not doing that idea, so it's pointless to even continue to discuss it. Sorry, but I have to put my foot down in this instance because the thread is becoming cluttered with this discussion and I feel it's confusing some posters. Furthermore there are just some things that aren't going to work with the spirit of this thread and I feel this is one of them.



Sniffers said:


> *My suggestion*
> A more proper way would be to average the tier placement of each character by each poster. For example if character X is placed in the S-rank by one poster, A-rank by another and B-rank by a third poster, then in the end the character is averaged into the A-rank.


Your suggestion is what we would be doing, if we did a Prelim list.




StuckInADaze said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> So you want to penalize people for not being a post whore or just recently joining?
> 
> ...


Don't worry i'm sure you'll be included I just threw out a number nothing is finalized, though there will be a post requirement to prevent dupes.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 16, 2012)

Strategoob said:
			
		

> Shintebukuro, Vice could just use the tiers themselves as an average instead of their exact position within the tiers. It would accomplish the same thing, more or less, no?



Yeah, I'm all for that. 



			
				Sniffers said:
			
		

> The polls keep track of everything and averages are easily determined and updated.



I wanted to comment on this:

We shouldn't use polls. They're just too anonymous. There will be tons of people voting without even understanding what the poll is about, and people intentionally screwing with it as well.

I think in order to have a vote, one needs to make a post openly, with a bit of reasoning provided for their answer.


----------



## Vice (Aug 17, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Look, I'm well aware of what you're trying to do. I actually read _your_ post, but clearly you didn't read mine because you didn't grasp the argument I was trying to make at all.
> 
> I'll try again...
> 
> ...



No, you're clearly not getting it because I'm not asking you to make up numbers for anybody. Numbers aren't your problem, numbers are mine. All I'm asking you to do is make a tier list. Rank them how you want them, how you see them. That's all you have to do. Number crunching is my problem, all you have to do is rank them.



Turrin said:


> Vice I get what your saying, but we are simply not going to do it that way. The reason were not going to do it that way, is because this is a Tier List, where we ranked characters in Tiers. The purpose of this thread is not to than list these characters from 1-10 within those tiers. Why? Because the reason many people uses tiers is because they consider all the characters in that tier roughly around the same "level" and find it inaccurate to place one above thee other within those tiers.



Then this isn't accurate and not worth doing. We know what tiers they belong in, the challenge is finding an accurate ranking between characters. What you're wanting to achieve is too simple.



> The other reason were not going to do it, is because it will over complicate the process since it will cause not only debates over which tier a character should be placed in, but also debates over that characters placement within those tiers, whether he/she should be 1, 2, 3, or 10. The ultimate result of this would be turning the thread into a shit storm.



No, it's actually quite simple. Everyone knows where they want to rank a character already. If you think there's not going to be a shitstorm either way we're going to do this then you're either extremely naive or in complete denial.

The challenge lies in the rankings per character, not the tiers. At worst this serves as a template in which to even begin the process of fair and accurate debate because the blueprint will already be there. With this we get a road map as to where true meaning of this kind of debate begins. Plus everyone gets a say and everyone who participates matters. This isn't just arbitrary numbers, this is accurate listings with every shred of imput mattering.



> So 100% we are not doing that idea, so it's pointless to even continue to discuss it. Sorry, but I have to put my foot down in this instance because the thread is becoming cluttered with this discussion and I feel it's confusing some posters. Furthermore there are just some things that aren't going to work with the spirit of this thread and I feel this is one of them.



First of all what makes you the end-all, be-all of decision making for this project? You're not the only one involved here. Second of all, this isn't difficult. This is actually simple. In fact, the only person here who will find it difficult is me. I'm the one who's doing the averaging, all I'm asking for is for members to post their lists. That's all.

Finally my suggestion got an almost unanimous yes vote. I'm fairly certain I know what I'm doing here. All you have to do is give me the heads up and i'll do all the work. At worst it's a preliminary list, at best it's the perfect way to get a complete list with everyone's work involved mattering.



> Your suggestion is what we would be doing, if we did a Prelim list.



Give me a chance to show you what I mean, just let everyone post their lists. I am positive you'll be impressed.


----------



## Vice (Aug 17, 2012)

Okay, forget the letter grades for now. Before we even begin debate just have everyone post their lists. Just let everyone rank them how they see fit and give me a chance to place them in order. Once I do that then we can begin the debate of ranking them per tier. Just give me the chance to make a list in order that we can work with. I won't give them a letter grade, I'll just rank them in order of average.


----------



## Immortal (Aug 17, 2012)

Has anyone posted any lists yet? Are we all going to use the same number of tiers/tier names? Perhaps a template should be made.


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 17, 2012)

If the way we're going to do this is give someone a list to calculate the averages we first need to all have the same list of characters and character incarnations.  For example one of us might rank a character like Shisui while another person may not.


----------



## Golden Circle (Aug 17, 2012)

Strictly speaking, you don't need to assign numbers to anything and average. All you need is boolean greater or less than operators, a shuffle algorithm, and a spreadsheet.

But carry on, I want to see if the present method pans out or not.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 17, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Shintebukuro, Vice could just use the tiers themselves as an average instead of their exact position within the tiers. It would accomplish the same thing, more or less, no?


Indeed, that's what I was trying to say..

..and considering that some characters who got averaged in the A-rank tier will have more S-rank votes than another.. one could even order the characters in each tier based on that average if people have time to spare.



shintebukuro said:


> We shouldn't use polls. They're just too anonymous. There will be tons of people voting without even understanding what the poll is about, and people intentionally screwing with it as well.
> 
> I think in order to have a vote, one needs to make a post openly, with a bit of reasoning provided for their answer.


Yeah, that's one of the problems. Polls can track what people voted on, so anonymity is not a problem, however, there will be people trying to screw with the poll. I suppose that a poll can be dropped in favour of vote-posts as you suggest. Prescribing a standard layout for such vote-posts should make it easy to count everything, although I fear for large discussions in each thread to drown the votes and even in this case people can screw with the ranking, although I agree it should be to a lesser extent.

If there are people dedicated to keep track of the vote count then I think that's a better solution than a poll too.


----------



## Ghost (Aug 17, 2012)

I don't see what is so fucking hard to do in Vice's suggestion? Imo it's good and necessary.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 17, 2012)

Vice said:


> Then this isn't accurate and not worth doing.


That is just your opinion, some people would say it's not accurate to try and list them within those tiers. 



> This isn't just arbitrary numbers, this is accurate *listings *with every shred of imput mattering.


Here in lies the disconnect. The purpose of this thread is not "listing" characters in-order from 1 - X number, hell the mods haven't even given permission to do a "listing" thread like that, the purpose of this thread is listing characters on tiers. 



> If you think there's not going to be a shitstorm either way we're going to do this then you're either extremely naive or in complete denial.


There might or might not be, but I'm not going to support implementing a scheme that will add fuel to the fire and ensure the shit storm (most likely nether are the mods).



> First of all what makes you the end-all, be-all of decision making for this project? You're not the only one involved here.


I was kind of made the overseer by Super Mod Naruto, so I do have some authority and there has to be some authority to make sure the thread doesn't get derailed. Though in this instance the issue isn't even authority it is that mods have been kind enough to give us permission to do tier ranking thread, not a thread to list characters from 1 - X number.



> Finally my suggestion got an almost unanimous yes vote. I'm fairly certain I know what I'm doing here. All you have to do is give me the heads up and i'll do all the work. At worst it's a preliminary list, at best it's the perfect way to get a complete list with everyone's work involved mattering.


People are voting unanimously for a Prelim list and from what I have read most people are disagreeing with listing characters within tiers and agreeing with (or suggesting the same thing) that I originally purposed we use to create the Prelim list. 



> Give me a chance to show you what I mean, just let everyone post their lists. I am positive you'll be impressed.


Like I said I am going to do the averaging and depending on if the amount of lists than your can help out if you want, but we'll be using the method that I and others have suggested.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 17, 2012)

*IMPORTANT!*

I have updated the opening with all the agreed upon rules and how the prelim list is going to work, but i'll post it here as well so people don't miss it:

*Phase I: The Schematic*​The Votes are Tabulated so here's what people decided on:



> 1. The Brackets that we'll be using for our tier list is:
> 
> S+ (109)
> S (105)
> ...



The three days to post your tier list using those brackets and following the rules starts now, so getting posting. Also bare in mind the more characters you list essentially the more say you will have, so better to make your list as detailed as possible.


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 17, 2012)

By the way are we only rating humans or are we rating the Bijuu as well? Also did you reach the conclusion about the different stages of character like SM Naruto, BM Naruto, Hebi Sasuke, EMS Sasuke etc?


----------



## Turrin (Aug 17, 2012)

JuubiSage said:


> By the way are we only rating humans or are we rating the Bijuu as well? Also did you reach the conclusion about the different stages of character like SM Naruto, BM Naruto, Hebi Sasuke, EMS Sasuke etc?


Just humans for now, maybe later on we can consider rating Bijuu though. The conclusion was we will rate them as the vote was close, but that side won out.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 17, 2012)

Not sure if this has been debated/voted on before, but - while I support a letter-ranking - I feel that the one proposed currently makes little sense. It's merely a name, and frankly it's most important feature is its (arbitrarily?) appointed numerical value.

I figured with the letter-classification we would attempt to use it in a way Kishimoto uses it. For example, the Akatsuki are S-class criminals. It seems weird to me to have to rank them in the B-category. To me it'd make more sense to attempt to follow Kishimoto's ranking (used primarily on jutsu) than the current arbitrary one. So, for example, I'd set Asuma on rank A, for a Jonin, and Jiraiya on rank S for being a legendary/extremely powerful shinobi of the jonin rank.

This will also give people a bit more of a grasp of where the rankings stand. Like I said, I feel weird with placing an S-class criminal in the B-tier. The S-rank may have to be subdivided into four or more tiers though.


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 17, 2012)

So next we just start posting our own tier lists, right?


----------



## Turrin (Aug 17, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Not sure if this has been debated/voted on before, but - while I support a letter-ranking - I feel that the one proposed currently makes little sense. It's merely a name, and frankly it's most important feature is its (arbitrarily?) appointed numerical value.
> 
> I figured with the letter-classification we would attempt to use it in a way Kishimoto uses it. For example, the Akatsuki are S-class criminals. It seems weird to me to have to rank them in the B-category. To me it'd make more sense to attempt to follow Kishimoto's ranking (used primarily on jutsu) than the current arbitrary one. So, for example, I'd set Asuma on rank A, for a Jonin, and Jiraiya on rank S for being a legendary/extremely powerful shinobi of the jonin rank.
> 
> This will also give people a bit more of a grasp of where the rankings stand. Like I said, I feel weird with placing an S-class criminal in the B-tier. The S-rank may have to be subdivided into four or more tiers though.


We already voted on the brackets, you missed that portion I think. Also the letter grades are just the brackets titles they have nothing to do with the scale used in the manga to rank criminals, just consider them two entirely different scales.

The numbers are just there for the sake of averages and come from the actual numbers assigned to letter grades in school (except in the case of S where I scaled up wards). 

The problem with ranking characters the way you say is that we'd run out of tiers quickly, considering Hidan would be placed on S- Tier and I think many people think there are several tiers above Hidan. Also not sure why you feel weird about it considering the criminal ranking system does not even rank strength it ranks the notoriety of the person based on their crimes. 

But ether way this is a moot point because we already decided to use this ranking system and that it has nothing to do with the S-class criminal ranking system. So please rank characters accordingly



JuubiSage said:


> So next we just start posting our own tier lists, right?


Yes, but be sure to put them in the decided on brackets or it won't be counted.


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 17, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Yes, but be sure to put them in the decided on brackets or it won't be counted.



Of course 

It's gonna take forever to make mine...


----------



## Turrin (Aug 17, 2012)

JuubiSage said:


> Of course
> 
> It's gonna take forever to make mine...


Well everyone's got 3 days to post their list, so there isn't much of a rush, even though I have much of my Tier list already done I'm still going to take some time to comb through it adding some characters and taking away some other characters, making some changes, etc...


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 17, 2012)

@Turrin

Yeah, I missed a significant chunk I think. I didn't know the class was used for just notoriety. I thought it was related to how Jonin use A-rank, and the best usually have S-class jutsu, as well as S-class missions being reserved for the best Jonin. I thought it all related as that.

Like I said, the S-class could've been divided in more tiers, although if you have already voted to take this one then indeed the point is moot.

PS: Ah, so that is where the numerical values come from.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 17, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> @Turrin
> 
> Yeah, I missed a significant chunk I think. I didn't know the class was used for just notoriety. I thought it was related to how Jonin use A-rank, and the best usually have S-class jutsu, as well as S-class missions being reserved for the best Jonin. I thought it all related as that.
> 
> ...



Yeah Kishi uses the D-S scale for a-lot of different shit.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 17, 2012)

*IMPORTANT!*

I added another rule to make sure everyone is scaling their tier list properly.

Everyone must rank and Rikudo Sannin. 

This is to set the scale of each person's tier list to help make the averaging process work. Rank a super low character Kin and rank a super high character Rikudo.

Note: Also to clarify a person has to use all the tiers in their list. So you have to rank at least 1 person on all tiers from D- to S+


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 17, 2012)

*S+*
Rikudo Sennin

*S*
Hashirama, Madara, Tobi, Kabuto

*S-*
Minato, Itachi, Nagato

*A+*
Sarutobi, Danzo, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Killer B, Hanzo, Tobirama

*A*
Kakashi, Gai, Tsunade, A, Onoki, Gaara, Mei, Sakumo, Mifune, Shisui, Sasori, Kisame, Mu, Nidaime Mizukage, Sandaime Kazekage, Yondaime Kazekage, Sandaime Raikage

*A-*
Kakuzu, Deidara, Konan, Chiyo, Kinkaku, Ginkaku, Darui, Kitsuchi

*B+*
Zabuza, Hidan, Zetsu, Kimimaro, Asuma, Yamato

*B*
Sakura, Neji, Temari, Sai, Choji, Choza, Shikamaru, Shikaku, Lee, Ao, Kankuro, Suigetsu, Jugo, Kurenai, Anko, Ino

*B-*
TenTen, Kiba, Hinata

*C+*
Konohamaru

*C-*
Kin

Note: I have counted summons, although I normally don't. Also, I have made no order within the tiers.

I must admit I'm having a rough time using such a big scale. I'm inclined to put lots of people together.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 17, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> *S+*
> Rikudo Sennin
> 
> *S*
> ...


What about C-, D+, D, and D- Tiers you have to use them. I thought that was obvious, but perhaps I should clarify.


----------



## Black☆Star (Aug 17, 2012)

Maybe we should make a list of characters so that we can rank them . That way nobody will be missed


----------



## Turrin (Aug 17, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> Maybe we should make a list of characters so that we can rank them . That way nobody will be missed


Use my tier list in my sig as a list of characters. People don't have to rank them all, but it can be used as a guide.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 17, 2012)

Turrin said:


> What about C-, D+, D, and D- Tiers you have to use them. I thought that was obvious, but perhaps I should clarify.



Hmm.. I figured everyone can list their list and then it gets averaged, so it shouldn't matter.

Anyway, this rule would mean I have to rip apart groups of people I want together. This thing is much too broad for my taste to the point I can't accurately show my view. At least when I look at your example, it's just way too much for my taste so I don't see this working out for me. Perhaps others have better luck, but I rate everyone too close for this format, I suppose. I'll just pass and observe what others make of it.


----------



## Octavian (Aug 17, 2012)

Preliminary Tier List:

S+ Tier

Rikudo Sennin, Juubi

S Tier

Madara, Hashirama, BM Naruto, Tobi, Kabuto w/Edo Tensei

S- Tier

Minato, Nagato, Itachi, SM kabuto, RM naruto, EMS sasuke

A+ Tier

Killer Bee, Onoki, Muu, MS sasuke, SM naruto (w/ Kurama co-operation), Pre-Rinnegan Tobi

A Tier

Sandaime Raikage, Ei, Nidaime Mizukage, Danzou, SM jiraiya, Orochimaru, Deidara, Kisame, Gaara (w/ desert)

A- Tier

Kakashi, Gai, Kinkaku, Sasori, Hebi Sasuke (w/Kirin)

B+ Tier

Gaara (without desert),  Kakuzu, Mei, Tsunade, Hanzou, Old Hiruzen, Base Naruto

B Tier

Kimimaro, Darui, Konan, Mifune, Butterfly Mode Chouji, Suigetsu, Zabuza

B- Tier

Asuma, Hidan, Neji, Yamato, Hizashi, Temari, Juugo, Haku

C+ Tier

Shikamaru, Chouji, Kankuro, Shino, Rock Lee, Hinata, Kidomaru, Sakura

C Tier

Konohamaru, Tayuya, Jirobo, Sakon/ Ukon, Ino

C- Tier

Tenten

D+ Tier

Zaku

D Tier

Rin

D- Tier

Kin

Note: I'll add more at the lower end of the tier list. Those guys elude my memory atm.


----------



## Black☆Star (Aug 17, 2012)

S+
Rikudou Sennin, Juubi

S
Edo Madara, Rinnegan Tobi, BM Naruto

S-
Senju Hashirama, EMS Madara, Uzamaki Nagato, Yakushi Kabuto

A+
Pain, RM Naruto, Itachi, Minato, Killer Bee, Pre-Rinnegan Tobi

A
SM Naruto, MS Sasuke, Danzo, Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Tobirama, Oonoki, Gaara, A

A-
Hebi Sasuke, Terumi Mei, Maito Gai, Hoshigaki Kisame, Kakashi, Ginkaku, Kinkaku, Hanzo, Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu

B
Konan, Darui, Kitsuchi, Yamato, Mifune, Chiyo

B-
Sai, Temari, Hidan, Sarutobi Asuma, Momochi Zabuza, Amakichi Chouji, Dan, Suigetsu, Juugo, Hozuki Mangetsu,

C
Torune, Fu, Kankuro, Kurotsuchi, Kurenai, Akatsuchi, Ao, Chojuro, Kimimaro, Inoichi, Chouza, Nara Shikaku, Hyuuga Neiji, Nara Shikkamaru, Baki, Temari, Anko

C+
Haruno Sakura, Kimimaro, Rock Lee, Shino, Kiba, Ino, Mitarashi, Hyuuga Hinata, Shiranui Genma, Namiashi Raidou, Yamashiro Aoba, Gekko Hayate, Samui, Omoi, Karui, Karin, Shin, Suikazan Fuguki, Munashi Jinpachi, Kuriarare Kushimaru, Ringo Ameyuri, Mahiro, Kakkō

C
Kidomaru, Sakon/Ukon, Tayuya, Jirobu, Atsui, Izumo, Kotetsu, Iruka

C-
Haku, Obito, Rin, Konohamaru

D+
Dosu 

D
Zaku

D-
Demon Brothers, Kin, Yoroi, Misumi, Maki, Mizuki, Team Oboro


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 17, 2012)

Even though people have started posting, I want to get out a few gripes of mine first:

1. We should not be listing Rikudou Sennin. It's pointless. He can have his own tier called "Rikudou Sennin tier" that naturally stands above all the other tiers. There's no need to average him out or anything because it's not even debatable that he's a tier beyond everyone else. 

2. We shouldn't be listing anything below jounin level. The author doesn't focus on it anymore in the series. There's nothing to confirm or deny anything; everybody will just be making random guesses. A "Part 1 tier list" could be its own separate thread, but as for right now, nobody on the forum ever discusses strength levels from part 1 genin/chuunin. 

People were talking about "clutter" earlier, right...? This extends the time it takes me to make my tier list by triple, complicates it much more, and is utterly boring because it's not a topic of interest to anyone currently reading the series.



			
				Vice said:
			
		

> No, you're clearly not getting it because I'm not asking you to make up numbers for anybody. Numbers aren't your problem, numbers are mine. All I'm asking you to do is make a tier list. Rank them how you want them, how you see them. That's all you have to do. Number crunching is my problem, all you have to do is rank them.



Why do you even bother responding to me if you are not even reading my posts? 

I am good with math; I understand what you're getting at very clearly. I could see the example that Blackstar posted. He listed people from 1-5, right? That's the fuckin numbers I am talking about.

You're clearly just not even reading my posts, because the point I am making is extremely simple. Listing characters from 1-5 denotes an order of strength among them.


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 17, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Even though people have started posting, I want to get out a few gripes of mine first:
> 
> 1. We should not be listing Rikudou Sennin. It's pointless. He can have his own tier called "Rikudou Sennin tier" that naturally stands above all the other tiers. There's no need to average him out or anything because it's not even debatable that he's a tier beyond everyone else.
> 
> 2. We shouldn't be listing anything below jounin level. The author doesn't focus on it anymore in the series. There's nothing to confirm or deny anything; everybody will just be making random guesses. A "Part 1 tier list" could be its own separate thread, but as for right now, nobody on the forum ever discusses strength levels from part 1 genin/chuunin.



100% agreed with these points.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 17, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Even though people have started posting, I want to get out a few gripes of mine first:
> 
> 1. We should not be listing Rikudou Sennin. It's pointless. He can have his own tier called "Rikudou Sennin tier" that naturally stands above all the other tiers. There's no need to average him out or anything because it's not even debatable that he's a tier beyond everyone else.


I highly agree with this point. The second point I'm not so sure about.


----------



## Joakim3 (Aug 17, 2012)

None of the characters are in order just their respective tier​
*S+*
Rikudo Sennin
Juubi

*S*
SM Kabuto w/ _Edo Tensei_
Edo Madara
BM Naruto
Tobi w/ _Pein Rikudo_ & Gedo Mazo
Nagato w/ _Pein Rikudo_ & Gedo Mazo

*S-*
EMS Madara
Hashirama
_Pein Rikudo_ (Tobi's)
Nagato 
RM Naruto

*A+*
SM Kabuto
_Pein Rikudo_ (Nagato's)
EMS Sasuke

*A*
Danzo
Minato
Itachi
Orochimaru w/ _Edo Tensei_
Tobi (Pre Rin'negan)

*A-*
Killer B
SM Jiraiya
SM Naruto
Onoki
Orochimaru
Mu
MS Sasuke
Trollkage
Ei
Raikeganaut
Gaara w/ Desert

*B+*
Deidara
Kakuzu
Kisame
Sasori
Hebi Sasuke
Konan
Naruto (base)
Kakashi
Gai
Gaara
Mei
Kin/Gin
Tsunade
Ei
Han
Fu
Utakata
Roshi
Yugito Nii
Yagura

*B*
Zabuza 
Hidan
Zetsu
Darui
Dan
Sasuke (base)
Fu
Torune
Hizashi
Hiashi
Shikaku
Butterfly Choji
Mangetsu
Kimimaro
Kitsuchi
Asuma
Yamato
Mifune
Ao

*B-*
Temari
Juugo
Haku
Suigetsu
Inochi
Ao
Neju
C
Chojuro
Jinin
Choji
Kushimaru
Jinpachi
Ameyuri
Fuguki

*C+*
Kitsuchi 
Akatsuchi 
Kankaru
Shikamaru
Hinata
Obito
Shino
Rock Lee
Sakura
Ino
Kiba/Akamaru

*C*
Konohamaru
Tayuya
Jirobo
Sakon/Ukon
Zetsu (Clones)

*C-*
Tenten

*D+*
Zaku

*D*
Rin

*D-*
Kin
Tonton


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 17, 2012)

S+ 
Rikodou Sennin

S
Madara Uchiha
Tobi
Kabtuo 
Nagato
Naruto
Itachi


S -
Minato
Sasuke Uchia 
Deidara
Kakashi
Danzo
Onoki
Kisame

A+

Bee
Shiushi Uchia
Orochimaru
Mu
Sasori
Gaara
Jiraiya
E
Second Mizukage
Third Kazekage

A
Kakuzu
Third Raikage
Gai
Konan
Hanzo
Mei Terumi
Fourth Kazekage

A-
Hiruzen Sarutobi
Hashirama
Darui
Mifune
Tsunade

B+
Zabuzza Momochi
Tobirama Senju
 Chiyo
Kankuro

B
Chojuro
Yamato
Hidan
Kinkaku and Jinkaku

B-
Asuma Sarutobi
Suigetsu Hozuki
Kimmimaro
Jugo

C+
Rock Lee
Neji Hyuga
Shino Aburame
Choji Akimichi
Kurotsuchi
Temari
Shikamaru Nara
Shikaku Nara


C
Kiba Inuzuka 
Choza Akimichi
Shi
Tayuya
Sakon and Ukon
Sai
Inochi Yamanaka
Kidomaru

C-
Jirobo
Haku
Shizune
Karin
Hinata Hyuga
Anko
Kitsuchi
Baki
Fu (ANBU)
Sakura

D+
Taiseki
Ino
Zaku Abumi
Ittan
Dosu
Gari
Oboro
Kagari

D
Mubi
Omoi
Karui
Izumo Kamizuki
Muta Aburame
Demon Brothers
Maki
Mahiru

D-
Konohamaru Sarutobi
Akatsuchi
Tenten
Rin
Kin


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 17, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Even though people have started posting, I want to get out a few gripes of mine first:
> 
> 1. We should not be listing Rikudou Sennin. It's pointless. He can have his own tier called "Rikudou Sennin tier" that naturally stands above all the other tiers. There's no need to average him out or anything because it's not even debatable that he's a tier beyond everyone else.
> 
> ...


I strongly agree with these points.


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 17, 2012)

I posted this on the last page but I just wanna reiterate there will be problems with the list if we don't all rank the same characters and character incarnations.  It will seriously change the tiers.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 17, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Even though people have started posting, I want to get out a few gripes of mine first:
> 
> 1. We should not be listing Rikudou Sennin. It's pointless. He can have his own tier called "Rikudou Sennin tier" that naturally stands above all the other tiers. There's no need to average him out or anything because it's not even debatable that he's a tier beyond everyone else.
> 
> ...



1. We already voted on the brackets, if you think he deserves his own tier than set aside one from the given brackets. There is more than enough of them.

2. We can list things bellow Jonin level from Part I. You also know that you don't have to list every character. The characters that you do and don't list are up to you.



Joakim3 said:


> None of the characters are in order just their respective tier​
> *Omnipotence*
> Rikudo Sennin
> Juubi


There is no Omnipotence tier so your tier list won't be counted unless you rank Rikudo Sennin in the given brackets. Just to be clear.


----------



## Joakim3 (Aug 17, 2012)

Turrin said:


> There is no Omnipotence tier so your tier list won't be counted unless you rank Rikudo Sennin in the given brackets. Just to be clear.



Got ya -_-


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 17, 2012)

*Updated Tier List*

S+
Edo Madara
Rinnengan Tobi
Hashirama
BM Naruto
SM Kabuto w/edo tensei

S
Nagato(including 6 paths/partially mobile form)
Minato/Itachi
Sasuke
Kabuto w/out Edo tensei
Onooki
Nidaime Mizukage
Muu
Sandaime Raikage
SM Jiriaya

S-
Ei
Kakashi
Gai
Kisame
Bee
Orochimaru
Konan
Gaara
Hanzo

A+
Tsunade
Hiruzen
Sasori
Tobirama
Kakazu
Mei
Danzo
Gin/Kin Bro's
Edo Jinchuriki

A (What I consider "Kage Level")
Mifune
Diedara
Fourth Kazekage
Hidan
Zetsu
7 Swordsman of the Mist
Kimmimaro
Chiyo

A-( Aka "Elite Jounin"
Darui
Asuma
Dan
Fuu 
Torune
Kitsuchi
Chojuro
Pt.1 Kakashi
Zabuza
Hyuga Hizashi
Older Ino-Shika-Cho
Kankaro
Temari
Omoi
Samui
Haku
Chouji(in Supreme Butterfly Mode.)
Baki

B+
Neji
Lee
Raito
Genma 
Shikamaru
Atsui
Sound 4 with CS2

B
Shino
Kiba
Hinata
Sakura
Ino
Hayate
Ten-Ten


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 17, 2012)

Turrin said:
			
		

> 1. We already voted on the brackets, if you think he deserves his own tier than set aside one from the given brackets. There is more than enough of them.



I recall voting on the type of brackets, but I don't recall voting about what the brackets need to represent. 

Unless we make some guidelines, everyone is going to interpret the brackets differently. Some people will make B represent all Jounin, others will put jounin in A-B, and some people will put Chuunins and Jounins throughout the B bracket.

There's still work that needs to be done before people start posting their tier lists. Just look at Hossaim's list for Christ's sake; he has Kitsuchi, one of the generals of the war, a tier below Karin and Jiroubou, and Tobirama in the same tier as Zabuza. Unless we start implementing some guidelines, this thing is going to be a huge clusterfuck.

And by the way, Rikudou Sennin being rated is a complete waste since he is #1 on everyone's list and doesn't need to be averaged. It's redundant for everyone to list him.



> 2. We can list things bellow Jonin level from Part I. You also know that you don't have to list every character. The characters that you do and don't list are up to you.



Well, what are the parameters for kage and jounin? What if I decide to interpret the brackets such that jounins are C rank, leaving all chuunin and genin to D? Is that okay?


----------



## Octavian (Aug 17, 2012)

@ Joakim: I think Hashirama and EMS madara belong in a different tier than Nagato or RM naruto. EMS madara has perfect susano'o and hashi fought against that and won lol. so, nagato and RM naruto belong in the S- tier but ems madara and hashi should be in the S tier IMO.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 17, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> I recall voting on the type of brackets, but I don't recall voting about what the brackets need to represent.
> 
> Unless we make some guidelines, everyone is going to interpret the brackets differently. Some people will make B represent all Jounin, others will put jounin in A-B, and some people will put Chuunins and Jounins throughout the B bracket.
> 
> ...


Yeah, this again.

I see there has been voted on using letters, but not on how many tiers there should be and what they represent (unless I missed that somehow). I say we vote on that because those questions are even more important than deciding on what label we give each tier (1 or S or whatever).


*Proposition*
I think we should adhere to a form that Kishimoto himself uses.* S-class consists of the best of the best Jonin; A-class is for regular Jonin; B-class for low Jonin/high Chunin; C-class for Chunin; D-class for Genin; E-class for academy students. Now I think it's fair to subdivide the S-class into three, namely S-, S, and S+ as this is where the difference listings become most interesting. I'm not against other ranks also being subdivided, but that's something that should be voted on.

The advantage of such a division is that we don't need a rule that requires us to list Kin or requires us to stretch our personal tiers thin in order to fit it in Turrin's model, as the levels, and thus the scaling of the rankings, is clearly defined. I also agree that Rikudo Sennin the God Jinchuriki doesn't have to be listed. It is redundant and already people seem to be forgetting him.


* Based on the ranking of Jutsu acquisition. (, , , , , .)


PS: if I missed a part let me know and I'll delete this post.


----------



## Santoryu (Aug 17, 2012)

I'll post a proper list when I'm not feeling lazy.

For now, this will suffice


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Aug 17, 2012)

S+
Rikudo Sennin

S
Uchiha Madara
Rinnengan Tobi
BM Naruto
Hashirama Senju
Kabuto with edo tensei

S-
Nagato/Kabuto
Minato
KCM Naruto
EMS Sasuke
Itachi


A+
Killer Bee
Onooki
SM Naruto/MS Sasuke
Nidaime Mizukage/Muu/Sandaime Raikage
SM Jiriaya
Ei


A
Kakashi/Gai
Gaara
Danzo
Orochimaru
Hiruzen Sarutobi
Sasori
Tsunade
Mei

A-
Hebi Sasuke
Deidara 
Konan
Chiyo, 
Kinkaku 
Ginkaku
Darui 
Kitsuchi

B+
Hanzou
Base Naruto

B 
Kimimaro 
Darui
Konan
Mifune
Butterfly Mode Chouji
Suigetsu 
Zabuza

B-
Asuma
Hidan,
Neji
Yamato 
Hizashi
Temari
Juugo
Haku

C+
Shikamaru
Chouji
Shino
Rock Lee
Hinata

C
Tayuya 
Jirobo 
Sakon/Ukon 
Ino

C-
Tenten

D+
Zaku
Obito

D
Rin


----------



## Sanjithehunter (Aug 17, 2012)

S+
Rikoudo Sannin


Madara Uchiha(edo with rennigan)
Tobi
Kabuto 
Nagato
Naruto


S
Minato
Jiraiya
Itachi
Sasuke 
Bee

S-

Orochimaru
Muu
Kisame
Sasori
Gaara
E
Second Mizukage
Third Raikage

A+
Kakashi
Gai
Kakuzu
Konan
Hanzo
Mei Terumi
Tsunade
Hashirama
Tobirama

A
Hiruzen Sarutobi
Darui
Mifune

A-
Asuma
Yamato
Zabuza
Chiyo
Kankuro
Hidan


B+
Chojuro
Kinkaku and Jinkaku

B
Suigetsu Hozuki
Kimmimaro
Jugo

B-
Rock Lee
Neji Hyuga
Shino Aburame
Choji Akimichi
Kurotsuchi
Temari
Shikamaru Nara
Shikaku Nara


C+
Kiba Inuzuka 
Choza Akimichi
Shi
Sai
Inochi Yamanaka
Sakura

C
Haku
Shizune
Hinata Hyuga

C-
Tenten
Konohamaru


D+
Zaku Abumi
Ittan
Dosu
Gari
Oboro
Kagari

D
Maki
MahiruI

D-
Rin
Kin


----------



## Turrin (Aug 17, 2012)

*Notice: You have to rank Rikudo sennin and Kin for your tier list to count*

I see quite a few people not doing one of these.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 17, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Yeah, this again.
> 
> I see there has been voted on using letters, but not on how many tiers there should be and what they represent (unless I missed that somehow).


You missed it the tiers were voted to be S+ - D-, plus we are already past that phase so it's pointless to keep bringing this up.



shintebukuro said:


> I recall voting on the type of brackets, but I don't recall voting about what the brackets need to represent.
> 
> Unless we make some guidelines, everyone is going to interpret the brackets differently. Some people will make B represent all Jounin, others will put jounin in A-B, and some people will put Chuunins and Jounins throughout the B bracket.
> 
> ...



1. How you interpret is up to you that is the whole point. 
2. Everyone seems to be doing fine to me
3. You cite a tier list you find as poor as an example, but there are always going to be people with poor tier lists, that can't be prevented. 
4. This is just a prelim list it doesn't need to be perfect that's what revisions are for.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 17, 2012)

Turrin said:


> You missed it the tiers were voted to be S+ - D-, plus we are already past that phase so it's pointless to keep bringing this up.


Where? I see that people voted to use letters, but I've also seen multiple suggestions for those. Where was it voted to use this particular letters list in stead of the other suggestions? I honestly can't find it after two sweeps of the thread. Could you please link me?


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 17, 2012)

Here's mine, I used the same characters in TUrrins sig for the most part.  I still think it makes more sense for all of us to use the same characters but w.e.  

S+

Rikudo
Tobi [Rinnengan]
Uchiha Madara [Rinnengan]
Uzamaki Nagato 
Tobi [Before Rinnengan]
Uzamaki Naruto [BM]
Shimura Danzo

S

Sarutobi Hiruzen [Prime]
Namikaze Minato
Senju Hashirama
Uchiha Madara [EMS]
Yakushi Kabuto [Sage Mode]
Uchiha Itachi 

S-

Uchiha Sasuke [EMS]
Uzamaki Naruto [RM]
Pain Rikudo
Uchiha Sasuke [MS]
Uzamaki Naruto [SM]
Jiraiya 
Orochimaru

A+

Maito Gai
Hatake Kakashi
Killer B 
Mu
Nindaime Mizukage
Sandaime Raikage


A

Sarutobi Hiruzen [Old]
Onoki 
Senju Tsunade 
Yondaime Raikage
Amakichi Chouji [Butterfly]
Uchiha Sasuke [Hebi]

A-

Hoshigaki Kisame
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu
Gaara 
Terumi Mei
Yondaime Kazekage

B+

Konan
Hidan
Ginkaku
Kinkaku
Naruto [Wind Training]
Sasuke [Pre White Snake]

B

Uchiha Sasuke [VOTE]
Uzamaki Naruto [VOTE]
Kyuuga Kimimaro 
Mifune
Darui
Yamato
Hanzo [Rusty]
Chiyo

B-

Gaara [Part I]
Hatake Kakashi [Part I]
Yakushi Kabuto [Part I]
Suigetsu
Juugo
Torune
Fu




C+

Ao
C
Kankuro [War Arc]
Temari [War Arc]
Chojuro
Sai
Haku
Sarutobi Asuma
Kurunai
Momochi Zabuza
Shizune
Naruto [Part II]
Hyuuga Neiji [Part II]


C

Nara Shikkamaru [Part II]
Rock Lee [Part II]
Haruno Sakura [Part II]
Shino [Part II]
Kiba [Part II]
Kidomaru
Sakon/Ukon
Tayuya
Jirobu



C-

Uzamaki Naruto [Rasengan]
Uchiha Sasuke [Chidori]
Hyuuga Neiji [Part I]
Rock Lee [Part I]
Temari [Part I]
Kankuro [Part I]
Nara Shikkamaru [Part I]
Shino [Part I]


D+

Kiba [Part I]
TenTen [Part II]
Hyuuga Hinata [Part II]
Ino [Part II]


D

Uchiha Sasuke [Start of Manga]
Uzamaki Naruto [Start of Manga]
Dosu


D-

Zaku
Kin
Tenten [Part I]
Chouji [Chuunin Exams]
Hyuuga Hinata [Part I]
Haruno Sakura [Part I]
Ino [Part I]


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 17, 2012)

Turrin said:
			
		

> 1. How you interpret is up to you that is the whole point.



No, this list is supposed to be how people interpret different character's level of strength, not how they interpret the scale. That is something we need to set a standard for.

This isn't going to work if some people's B+ tier has kage level ninja on it, and other people's B+ tier has chuunins on it....*the averaging will not work correctly*.

Just voting for the letter grades should have been step 1, and defining what they represent should have been step 2. 

Scroll up and look at some of these lists. Jimbob631 has Mifune, Chiyo, and Darui (all 3 which are close to kage level) in his B tier, and UltimateDeadpool's B tier has Sakura, Ino, and Konohamaru on it, all _because they've interpreted the *scale* differently_.



> 3. You cite a tier list you find as poor as an example, but there are always going to be people with poor tier lists, that can't be prevented.



The problem with his tier list is that he bases everything on "feats." It needs to be clear to people that this tier list is based more on statements/hype/author's portrayal.


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 17, 2012)

^I think this issue stems from the fact that we are all using different characters which I've been continuously posting about.  I agree with your point also, but this would be a lot easier if we all had the same characters.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 17, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> *S+*
> Rikudo Sennin
> 
> *S*
> ...



Deadpool you have to use all of the tiers




shintebukuro said:


> No, this list is supposed to be how people interpret different character's level of strength, not how they interpret the scale. That is something we need to set a standard for.
> 
> This isn't going to work if some people's B+ tier has kage level ninja on it, and other people's B+ tier has chuunins on it....*the averaging will not work correctly*.
> 
> ...


The way people intepret the scale reflects how they interpret strength. Deadpool didn't follow the rules that's why his tier list is messed up. The whole reason that I included the rules that people must rank Rikudo + Kin, and have to use all the tiers is too keep scaling issues at a minimum. We would not be having so many problems if people followed the rules and others stop posting new ideas confusing people. 



> The problem with his tier list is that he bases everything on "feats." It needs to be clear to people that this tier list is based more on statements/hype/author's portrayal.


If you go back and read the thread it was made clear to people. And Hossaim has been around since the beginning so he knows. He simply just thinks characters stack up that way. There is not much I can do about a person having a view of the characters I or other greatly disagree with other than hope there is enough tier list I do think are accurate to balance it out. However you are more than welcome to throw him a PM/VM if you don't think he gets that were taking a holistic view.

Again I repeat that we are setting this up as a preliminary list, I fully expect heavy revision to be necessary, and that is where the main discussion comes into play, but the prelim list can at least eliminate some of the characters that are easy placements and set the pace. That's all i'm trying to accomplish here rather than super accuracy.


----------



## Naruto (Aug 18, 2012)

You guys need to make a complete list of characters before you make lists, or your averages don't mean anything.

Everyone *has* to use the same characters or there will be discrepancies in relativity between lists. What shintebukuro pointed out is correct.


----------



## Ghost (Aug 18, 2012)

*S+*

Rikudo Sennin
Juubi

*S*

Edo Madara
Tobi
Naruto
Kabuto w/ Edo Tensei 

*S-*

Sasuke
Nagato
Itachi
Minato
Onoki
Muu
Bee
A
Shisui
Sakumo
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
Hiruzen (prime)
Danzo
Sandaime Raikage
Nidaime Mizukage

*A+*

Hanzo (prime)
Gaara
Kisame
Kakashi
Guy
Sasuke (hebi)
Kakuzu
Deidara
Sasori
Naruto (base)
Tsunade
Mei

*A*

Sandaime Kazekage
Hanzo (rusty)
Hiruzen
Yondaime Kazekage
Dan
Mifune
Hidan

*A-*

Konan
Chiyo
Zabuza
Darui
Kitsuchi
Asuma
Yamato
Chouza
Hiashi
Hizashi
Juugo
Sai
Genma
Ao
Kimimaro
Lee
Neji
Zetsu

*B+*

Suigetsu
Temari
Kankuro
Shikamaru
Chouji
Anko
Shino
Haku
Aoba

*B*

Shizune
Mizuki
Iruka
Sakura
Kiba
Hinata
Hayate
Shin
Atsui
Karin
Ino
Tenten

*B-*

Sakon/Ukon
Kidomaru
Tayuya
Jirobo

*C+*

Konohamaru
Obito
Dosu
Maki

*C*

Oboro
Zaku

*C-*

Demon Brothers

*D*

Kin


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 18, 2012)

Naruto said:


> You guys need to make a complete list of characters before you make lists, or your averages don't mean anything.
> 
> Everyone *has* to use the same characters or there will be discrepancies in relativity between lists. What shintebukuro pointed out is correct.



Agreed, if we're all going to use different characters this is not going to work. Turrin should make a list of characters that we'r ranking and everyone has to rank all of them to participate.


----------



## Vice (Aug 18, 2012)

Fairly complete list of characters that can be ranked:

Rikudo Sennin
Juubi
Madara (edo)
Hashirama
Naruto
Tobi (Rinnegan)
Madara (EMS)
Six Paths of Tobi
Minato
Kabuto 
Nagato
Itachi
Six Paths of Pain
Naruto (RM)
Sasuke (EMS)
Killer Bee
Tobi (MS)
Sasuke (MS)
Danzo
Naruto (SM)
Onoki
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
A
Muu 
Might Guy
Tobirama
Kakashi
Hiruzen
Sandaime Raikage
Nidaime Mizukage
Gaara
Hanzo
Kisame
Tsunade
Sasori
Mei
Sakumo
Shisui
Sandaime Kazekage
Yondaime Kazekage
Deidara
Hebi Sasuke
Kakuzu
Mifune
Kinkaku/Ginkaku
Naruto (base)
Konan
Darui
Kitsuchi
Chiyo
Kimimaro
Zabuza
Hidan
Asuma
Yamato
Dan
Zetsu
Neji
Chouji
Hizashi
Hiashi
Temari
Sai
Suigetsu
Torune
Fu
Haku
Shikamaru
Sakura
Juugo
Kurotsuchi
Kurenai
Kankuro
Akatsuchi
Kitsuchi
Shizune
Ao
Rock Lee
Shino
Chojuro
Inoichi
C
Shino
Kidomaru
Chouza
Hinata
Shikaku
Tayuya
Konohamaru
Jirobo
Ino
Sakon/Ukon
Tenten
Baki
Zaku
Anko
Rin
Kin
Kiba
Genma
Aoba
Hayate
Samui
Omoi
Karui
Karin
Shin
Atsui
Iruka
Obito
Dosu
Demon Brothers
Maki
Mizuki

You're welcome.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 18, 2012)

This is so stupid.

Why don't you list all the characters we have to lot in the first post. 

And what's the point of listing characters like Oboro?


----------



## Turrin (Aug 18, 2012)

*IMPORTANT!*

Alright sorry guys, Naruto has spoken and therefore we got to start the tiering processes over again. The rules remain the same as last time, except this time everyone has to rank the following characters on their tier list:

Rikudo Sennin
Madara (edo)
Hashirama
Naruto(Current)
Tobi (Rinnegan)
Madara (EMS)
Six Paths of Tobi
Minato
Kabuto 
Nagato
Itachi
Six Paths of Pain
Naruto (Pre-BM)
Sasuke (EMS)
Killer Bee
Tobi (Pre Rinnegan)
Sasuke (MS)
Danzo
Naruto (Pre-KCM)
Onoki
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
A
Muu 
Might Guy
Tobirama
Kakashi
Hiruzen (old)
Hiruzen (Prime)
Sandaime Raikage
Nidaime Mizukage
Gaara
Hanzo (Rusty) 
Hanzo (Prime)
Kisame
Tsunade
Sasori
Mei
White Fang
Shisui
Sandaime Kazekage
Yondaime Kazekage
Deidara
Hebi Sasuke
Kakuzu
Mifune
Kinkaku/Ginkaku
Naruto (Pre SM)
Konan
Darui
Kitsuchi
Chiyo
Kimimaro
Zabuza
Hidan
Asuma
Yamato
Dan
Zetsu
Neji
Chouji
Hizashi
Hiashi
Temari
Sai
Suigetsu
Torune
Fu
Haku
Shikamaru
Sakura
Juugo
Kurotsuchi
Kurenai
Kankuro
Akatsuchi
Kitsuchi
Shizune
Ao
Rock Lee
Shino
Chojuro
Inoichi
C
Shino
Kidomaru
Chouza
Hinata
Shikaku
Tayuya
Konohamaru
Jirobo
Ino
Sakon/Ukon
Tenten
Baki
Zaku
Anko
Rin
Kin
Kiba
Genma
Aoba
Hayate
Samui
Omoi
Karui
Karin
Shin
Atsui
Iruka
Obito
Dosu
Demon Brothers
Maki
Mizuki

Please also remember this list isn't based soley on feat, take into account statements, portrayal, etc... into your assessment as well. Also remember you have to use all of the tiers or your list won't count.




Vice said:


> You're welcome.


Thanks for the list bud.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Aug 18, 2012)

*(Alphabetical)

S+*
Rikudou

*S*
Hashirama
Kabuto
Madara
Tobi

*S-*
Hanzo
Hiruzen
Itachi
Jiraiya
Minato
Nagato
Naruto
Sasuke

*A+*
2nd Mizukage
3rd Raikage
Bee
Danzo
Ginkaku
Kakuzu
Kinkaku
Mangetsu (w/ all 7 swords)
Muu
Orochimaru (Armless)
Tobirama
Yagura

*A*
3rd Kazekage
4th Kazekage
Deidara
 Ei
Gaara
Gai
Han
Kakashi
Kisame
Mei
Mifune
Onoki
Roushi
Sakumo
Sasori
Shisui
Tsunade
Yugito

*A-*
Chiyo
Dan
Darui
Fuu
Hidan
Kimimaro
Kitsuchi
Konan
Lee
Neji
Utakata
Zabuza
Zetsu

*B+*
Asuma
Chouji
Chouza
Haku
Hiashi
Inoichi
Juugo
Kankuro
Kurenai
Sai
Shibi
Shikaku
Shikamaru
Suigetsu
Temari
Tsume
Yahiko
Yamato

*B*
Akatsuchi
Ameyuri
Ao
Baki
Chojuro
Dodai
Fu Yamanaka
Fuguki
Gari
Jinin
Jinpachi
Kurotsuchi
Kushimaru
Pakura
Sakura
Torune

*B-*
Anko
Hinata
 Ino
Jirobo
 Kiba
 Kidomaru
 Tayuya
Sakon/Ukon
Shii
Shino

*C+*
Aoba
Atsui
Ebisu
Genma
Hayate
Karui
Konohamaru
Obito
Omoi
Raido
Samui
Shizune
 Tenten
Yugao

*C*
 Gouzu
Iruka
Maki
 Meizu
Mizuki
Motoi
Shin
 Yoroi

*C-*
Karin

*D+*
Dosu
 Rin
   Zaku

*D*
Kin
 Moegi
 Udon

*D-*
Academy students (can't think of specific names to put here)

Well, that just took two freakin' hours.


----------



## Vice (Aug 18, 2012)

Whoops. Forgot the 7 Swordsmen of the Mist. You can add those in as well.


----------



## Ghost (Aug 18, 2012)

Alright, I'll edit the people I forgot on my list.


----------



## Rama (Aug 18, 2012)

Well I'm done, they are in order.  

*S+*
Rikudo Sennin

*S*
Madara (Edo)

*S-*
Hashirama
Madara(EMS)
Tobi (Rinnegan)
Kabuto
Naruto(BM)



*A+*
Nagato
Minato
Hiruzen(Prime)
Sasuke(EMS)

*A*
Tobi(Sharingan)
Six Paths of Pain
Danzo
Naruto(pre-BM)
Hanzo (Prime)

*A-*
Itachi
Jiraiya
Oonoki
Orochimaru
Killer B
Ei
Sandaime Raikage
Muu
Gaara
Nidaime Mizukage
Kakashi
Yondaime Kazekage
Kisame
Mei Terumi
Naruto(SM)
Sasuke(MS)
Tobirama 
Hiruzen (old)
Shisui
Kinkaku/Ginkaku
Deidara
White Fang

*B+*
Sasori
Tsunade
Gai
Hebi Sasuke
Kushina
Mifune
Hanzo (Rusty)
Konan
Darui


*B*
Kakuzu
Naruto (Pre SM)
Hidan
Chiyo
Yamato
Zabuza
Kankuro



*B-*
Mangetsu
Zetsu
Temari
Dan
Suigetsu
Juugo
Chouji
Chojuro
Ao
Fu 
Torune
Inoichi 
Chouza
C
Kurotsuchi
Akatsuchi
Sai
Neji
Asuma
Shikaku
Shikamaru
Shizune
Kurenai
Hizashi
Hiashi



*C+*
Jinin Akebino
Suikazan Fuguki
Kuriarare Kushimaru 
Munashi Jinpachi
Ringo Ameyuri
Kimimaro
Shino
Sakura
Anko
Hinata
Omoi
Aoba
Tenten
Rock Lee
Kiba
Gemna
Raido
Other Hokage Guard Platoon Member
Karui
Atsui
Samui
Shin


*C*
Tayuya
Haku
Kidomaru
Sakon and Ukon
Jirobu
Karin
Izumo
Kotetsu
Ebisu

*C-*
Obito
Iruka
Konohamaru

*D+*
Rin

*D*
Dosu 
Maki


*D-*
Mizuki
Demon Brothers
Kin Tsuchi
Zaku Abumi
Yoroi Akadō
Misumi Tsurugi


----------



## Alex Payne (Aug 18, 2012)

Mine, in no order.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*S+*

Rikudo Sennin

*S*

 Madara (edo)
 Tobi (Rinnegan)
 Kabuto

*S-*

 Hashirama
 Naruto(Current)
 Madara (EMS)
 Six Paths of Tobi
 Minato
 Nagato
 Itachi
 Six Paths of Pain
 Sasuke (EMS)
 Killer Bee
 Tobi (Pre Rinnegan)
 Danzo
 Hiruzen (Prime)
 Hanzo (Prime)

*A+*

 Naruto (Pre-BM) 
 Sasuke (MS)
 Naruto (Pre-KCM)
 Onoki
 Jiraiya
 Orochimaru
 Muu 
 Might Guy
 Tobirama
 Kakashi
 Sandaime Raikage
 Nidaime Mizukage
 Gaara
 Sasori
 White Fang
 Shisui
 Sandaime Kazekage
 Deidara
 Hebi Sasuke

*A*

 Mei
 Tsunade
 Kakuzu
 Kisame
 Yondaime Kazekage
 A
 Hiruzen (old)
 Kinkaku/Ginkaku
 Naruto (Pre SM)
 Konan
 Chiyo
 Hidan
 Dan
 Zetsu
 Hanzo (Rusty) 

*A-*

 Kimimaro
 Zabuza
 Darui
 Kitsuchi
 Mifune
 Asuma
 Yamato
 Chouji
 Hizashi
 Hiashi
 Kankuro
 Rest of 7 Swordsmen
 Suigetsu
 Juugo
 Kurenai
 Chojiro

*B+*

 Ao
 Baki
 Inoichi
 Shikaku
 Chouza
 Samui
 Kurotsuchi
 Temari
 Sai
 Neji
 Torune
 Fu
 Shikamaru


*B*

 Sakura
Akatsuchi
Shizune
Anko
Genma
Aoba
Rock Lee
Shino 

*B-*

Kiba
Hayate 
Omoi
Shin

*C+*

Karui
Atsui
C
Hinata

*C*

Haku
Kidomaru
Tayuya
Jirobo
Sakon/Ukon 

*C-*

Iruka
Obito
Ebisu
Kotetsu
Izumo
Ino

*D+*

Konohamaru
Karin
Tenten

*D*

Dosu
Mizuki
Zaku
Rin

*D-*

Demon Brothers
Maki
Kin


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 18, 2012)

Wait is the sixth paths of tobi including Tobi also, and does it include them turning into bijuu.


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 18, 2012)

Okay, here's mine. It's mostly copied from Rama's list since I agreed with most character ranks. However I did change quite a few positions to fit my opinion, especially in the higher tiers.​
*S+*
Rikudo Sennin

*S*
 Madara [Edo Tensei]
 Tobi [Rinnegan]
 Naruto [BM]
 Hashirama

*S-*
 Madara [EMS]
 Six Paths of Tobi
 Kabuto [With Edo Tensei]

*A+*
 Nagato
 Minato
 Tobi [Pre-Rinnegan]

*A*
 Hiruzen [Prime]
 Six Paths of Pain
 Naruto [Pre-BM]
 Killer B
 Sasuke [EMS]

*A-*
 Danzo
 Hanzo [Prime]
 Itachi
 Jiraiya
 Oonoki
 Orochimaru
 Ei
 Sandaime Raikage
 Muu
 Gaara
 Nidaime Mizukage
 Kakashi
 Yondaime Kazekage
 Kisame
 Naruto [SM]
 Sasuke [MS]
 Tobirama 
 Hiruzen [Old]
 Shisui
 Kinkaku & Ginkaku
 Deidara

*B+*
 White Fang
 Sasori
 Mei Terumi
 Tsunade
 Gai
 Sasuke [Hebi]
 Mifune
 Hanzo [Rusty]
 Konan
 Darui

*B*
 Kushina
 Kakuzu
 Naruto [Pre-SM]
 Hidan
 Chiyo
 Yamato
 Zabuza
 Kankuro

*B-*
 Mangetsu
 Zetsu
 Temari
 Dan
 Suigetsu
 Juugo
 Chouji
 Chojuro
 Ao
 Fu 
 Torune
 Inoichi 
 Chouza
 C
 Kurotsuchi
 Akatsuchi
 Sai
 Neji
 Asuma
 Shikaku
 Shikamaru
 Shizune
 Kurenai
 Hizashi
 Hiashi

*C+*
 Jinin Akebino
 Suikazan Fuguki
 Kuriarare Kushimaru 
 Munashi Jinpachi
 Ringo Ameyuri
 Kimimaro
 Shino
 Sakura
 Anko
 Hinata
 Omoi
 Aoba
 Tenten
 Rock Lee
 Kiba
 Gemna
 Raido
 Karui
 Atsui
 Samui
 Shin

*C*
 Tayuya
 Haku
 Kidomaru
 Sakon and Ukon
 Jirobu
 Karin
 Izumo
 Kotetsu
 Ebisu

*C-*
 Obito
 Iruka
 Konohamaru

*D+*
 Rin

*D*
 Dosu 
 Maki

*D-*
 Mizuki
 Demon Brothers
 Kin Tsuchi
 Zaku Abumi
 Yoroi Akadō
 Misumi Tsurugi


----------



## Vice (Aug 18, 2012)

jimbob631 said:


> Wait is the sixth paths of tobi including Tobi also, and does it include them turning into bijuu.



I would say no to Tobi and yes to the Bijuu.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 18, 2012)

Vice said:


> I would say no to Tobi and yes to the Bijuu.



This is correct.

@UltimateDeadpool

You forgot a few characters like the incarnations of Naruto, Sasuke, and Tobi.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 18, 2012)

Here's my list for now, but I have to proof read it to make sure I got everyone

S+
Rikudo

S
Uchiha Madara [Rannigan]
Tobi [Rannigan]
Yakushi Kabuto


S-
Senju Hashirama
Pain Rikudo [Tobi's]
Uchiha Madara [EMS]
Minato
Tobi [Pre Rannigan]
Six paths of Tobi


A+
Uzamaki Nagato
Naruto [Current]


A
Shimura Danzo
Pain Rikudo
White Fang
Hanzo [Prime]
Hiruzen [Prime]
Naruto [Pre-BM]
Uchiha Shisui
Sasuke [EMS]

A-
Uzamaki Naruto [Pre-KCM]
Uchiha Sasuke [MS]
Uchiha Itachi 
Tobirama
Jiraiya 
Killer B 
Mu
Yondaime Raikage
Onoki 
Nindaime Mizukage
Orochimaru
Sarutobi Hiruzen [Old]
Gaara 
Sandaime Raikage
Senju Tsunade 

B+
Yagura
Hatake Kakashi
Sasori
Sandaime Kazekage
Yondaime Kazekage
Uchiha Sasuke [Hebi]
Terumi Mei
Maito Gai
Hoshigaki Kisame
Ginkaku
Kinkaku


B
Orochimaru [Sick]
Darui
Kitsuchi
Deidara
Kakuzu
Yamato
Naruto [Pre-SM]
Hanzo [Rusty]
Mifune
Chiyo
Yakushi Kabuto [Pre Oro DNA]
Zetsu

B-
Shiranui Genma
Sai
Temari
Hidan
Rock Lee
Konan
Sarutobi Asuma
Kurunai
Momochi Zabuza
Amakichi Chouji 
Dan
C
Torune
Fu
Kankuro 
Kurotsuchi
Akatsuchi
AO
Chojuro
Hizashi
Haishi
Kyuuga Kimimaro 
Inoichi 
Chouza
Nara Shikaku 
Hyuuga Neiji 
Nara Shikkamaru 
Shizune
Suigetsu
Juugo
Elite Anbu
Hozuki Mangetsu 
Baki
Temari
Shino 



C+
Haruno Sakura 
TenTen 
Ino 
Mitarashi Anko 
Hyuuga Hinata  
Namiashi Raidou
Yamashiro Aoba
Gekko Hayate
Samui
Omoi
Karui
Karin
Shin
Suikazan Fuguki
Munashi Jinpachi
Kuriarare Kushimaru 
Ringo Ameyuri
Mahiro
Kakkō


C
Kidomaru
Sakon/Ukon
Tayuya
Jirobu
Atsui
Izumo
Kotetsu
Iruka

C-
Haku
Obito
Rin 
Konohamaru 


D+
Dosu



D
Zaku


D-
Demon Brothers
Kin
Yoroi
Misumi
Maki
Mizuki
Oboro Brothers


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 18, 2012)

*Z*
Rikudo Sennin
Juubi

*S+*
Edo Madara
Tobi w/ Rinnengan
Hashirama
BM Naruto
EMS Madara
Kabuto w/ Edo Tensei

*S*
Nagato
Minato
Itachi
Kabuto w/o Edo tensei
KCM Naruto
Killer Bee
EMS Sasuke
Sharingan Tobi

*S-*
TrollKage
Muu
Sandaime Raikage
SM Jiriaya
SM Naruto/MS Sasuke
Six Paths of Pain
Prime Hiruzen
Orochimaru w/ Edo Tensei
Oonoki
Kakashi
Gai
V2 Ei
Kisame
Danzo

*A+*
White Fang
Hanzo
Tsunade
Tobirama
Kakazu
Gaara
Mei
Sasori
Konan
Gin/Kin Bro's
Edo Jinchuriki

*A-*(Kage Level)
Mifune
Diedara
Zetsu
Hidan
Chiyo
Kimmimaro
Post Futton Naruto
Hebi Sasuke
Seven Swordsman of the Mist.

*B+(elite Jonin)*
Darui
Kitsuchi
Asuma
Dan
Hiashi/Hizashi Hyuuga
Zabuza
Pt.1 Kakashi
Pt.1 Kabuto
Haku
Ino-Shika-Cho(elder)
Fu/Torune
Chojuro
Chouza 
Yamato
Ao
Kankorou
Sai
Omoi
Suigetsu
Juugo
Samui

*B*
Shizune
Chouji
Neji
Lee
Kurenai
Raito
Genma
Shikamaru
Temari
Shi
Karui
Atsui


*B-*
Shino
Kiba
Hinata
Sakura
Ino
Hayate
Aoba
Baki
Sound 4 w/ CS2
Gated Lee/SSR Neji/KN0/CS2 Sasuke
*C+*
Shin
Obito
Gaiden Kakashi
Anbu Agents(general)
Sound 4(no CS2)

*C*
Iruka
Konohamaru
Pre skip Konoha 11(minus CS2 Sasuke, Gated Lee, and KN0)
Mizuki

*C-*
Rin
Dosu
Zaku
Yoroi

*D+*
Demon Brothers
Kin


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 18, 2012)

@Turrin
Why the hell do you keep calling Rinnegan Rannigan?


----------



## Eliyua23 (Aug 18, 2012)

Eliyua 23 Tier List 

As of Chapter 598

S+ 

Rikudo



S

 Tobi(Rinnegan)
 Kabuto(Edo Tensei)
 Edo Madara
 Hashirama
 BM Naruto
 EMS Madara
 EMS Sasuke
 6 Paths of Tobi

 S-

 Minato
 Tobi(Pre-Rinnegan)
 Pre BM Naruto
 Itachi 
 Nagato (Pein)
 Hiurzen (Prime)
 Danzo
 Jiryia
 Killer B
 Pre KCM Naruto
 MS Sasuke
 Orochimaru

A+

 Kushina
 Mito
 Tobirama
 Shisui
 Hanzo (Prime)
 Onoki
 Sakumo
 Hiruzen (Old)


A

 Mu
 Trollkage
 Gaara
 Tsunade 
 3rd Raikage
 A
 4th Kazekage
 Mei
 Yagura
 Sasori 
 Kakashi
 Gai



 A-

 Kisame
 Konan
 Hebi Sasuke
 Base Naruto
 Kin/Gin bros
 Dan


 B+

 Deidara
 Kakuzu
 Darui
 Shikamaru 
 Kitsuchi
 Kankuro
 Sakura
 Chouji ( Butterly Mode)
 Asuma
 Hidan
 Chiyo
 Hanzo (rusty)
 Suigestu
 Mangestu 
 Yamato
 Mifune
 Zetsu
 Kabuto(Pre-Snake)

 B

 AO
 Temari
 Zabuza
 Neji
 Sai
 Rock Lee
 Inochi
 Chouza
 Shikaku
 Choujiro
 Juugo
 Kurotsuchi
 Kurenai
 Shino
 Samui
 Kimmamaro
 Fuu
 Torune
 Hiashi
 Hizashi
 Anko

B-

Ino
Aoba
Shizune
Omoi
Karui
C
Genma
Baki
Atakuschi 
Jinpachi 
 Fuguki
 Kushimaru 
Ringo 
Mahiro
Kakkō



C+

Hinata
Kiba
Tenten
Karin


C

Sakon/Ukon
Kidomaru
Tayuya
Hayate
Atsui
Jiboro
Kotetsu


C-
Ebisu
Obito
Konohamaru
Haku

D+

Shin
Iruka
Mizuki
Yoroi

D

Demon Bros
Rin
Zaku

D-
Misusi 
Kin
Dosu
Maki


----------



## KAKASHI10 (Aug 18, 2012)

KAKASHI10 Tier SHORT list .......


*S+*
RS and Itachi  

*S*
All of the HOKAGES. 
All of the Sanin.
Kakashi 
Nagato 
Kabuto 

*A+*
Sai
Neji

Im very very serious, except with one, that I will not say who


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 18, 2012)

S+

Rikudo Sennin
Kabuto 
Tobi (Rinnegan)
Madara (edo)
Naruto (Current)
Six Paths of Tobi

S

Nagato
Hiruzen (Prime)
Minato
Tobi (Pre Rinnegan)
Hashirama
Madara (EMS)
Itachi
Sasuke (EMS)

S-

Tobirama
Naruto (Pre-BM)
Six Paths of Pain
Killer Bee
Sasuke (MS)
Naruto (Pre-KCM)
Jiraiya
Orochimaru

A+

Danzo
Shisui
Might Guy
Kakashi
Muu 
Nidaime Mizukage
Sandaime Raikage








A

White Fang
Hiruzen (old)
Onoki
Tsunade
A
Chouji
Hebi Sasuke

A-

Kisame
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan
Gaara
Mei



B+

Sandaime Kazekage
Yondaime Kazekage
Kinkaku/Ginkaku
Hanzo (Prime)
Naruto (Pre SM)
Yamato
Kimimaro

B

Mifune
Darui
Kitsuchi
Hanzo (Rusty) 
Chiyo
Dan
Torune
Fu

B-

Shikaku
Inoichi
Ao
Kankuro
C
Temari
Chojuro
Akatsuchi
Kurotsuchi
Suigetsu
Juugo

C+

Asuma
Kurenai
Neji
Hizashi
Hiashi
Sai
Haku
Zabuza
Baki
Chouza
Shizune

C

Maki
Samui
Omoi
Karui
Atsui
Genma
Aoba
Hayate
Anko
Rock Lee
Shino
Shikamaru




C-

Shin
Sakura
Kiba
Sakon/Ukon
Tayuya
Kidomaru
Jirobo

D+

Zetsu
Iruka
Konohamaru
Tenten
Hinata
Ino
Rin
Obito

D

Karin
Demon Brothers
Mizuki

D-

Dosu
Zaku
Kin


----------



## Ptolemy (Aug 18, 2012)

I tried to say this earlier but I think this whole system is pretty arbitrary and overly complicated. One poster said his tier list took two hours - that's a huge amount of time.

The problem is the tiers don't represent anything. How can Madara and the Riduko Sennin be one tier apart, whilst on the same list, Iruka and Mizuki can appear one tier apart? We can presume Tobirama is strong because he was a kage, but can we actually say whether he is an S/S-/A+/A/A-? What makes Rin a D and Kin a D-? How many tiers above a character does someone need to be able to effortless stomp them? 

By the way, I flicked through the thread, and yes letters were voted for, but nowhere was the +/- system agreed on. Yes some people suggested it, several suggested many different things.

At the moment we have *fifteen * tiers. Why do we need fifteen in particular? Can someone answer me this? If you want to rank characters why not do broader tiers that actually meaningfully distinguish between people? You can still do an average of say 1-10 on each tier to get a rough idea of how each character matches up to one another.


----------



## Rama (Aug 18, 2012)

Ptolemy@ This is just to average out a prelim list, in no way is this final.  Character positions on the list can be discussed after the prelim list has been made.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2012)

*Proposition:* : We need to very clearly define the difference between S Rank and A Rank. Just as with techniques there is a signifigant difference I believe our Tier List should represent such. _Basically making S Top Tier(S+=High Top/S=Mid top/S-=Low Top Tiers)_and A = High Tier so on and so forth.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 19, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> *Proposition:* : We need to very clearly define the difference between S Rank and A Rank. Just as with techniques there is a signifigant difference I believe our Tier List should represent such. _Basically making S Top Tier(S+=High Top/S=Mid top/S-=Low Top Tiers)_and A = High Tier so on and so forth.



I don't think we need to do that, because people seem to be interpreting the tiers just fine on their own. Plus like others as well as myself have said this is just a prelim list, we are not striving for 100% accuracy right from the jump, it will be a work in progress.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 19, 2012)

*S+*

Rikudo Sennin

*S*

 Madara (Current)
 Tobi (Current)
 Kabuto (W/Edo)

*S-*

 Hashirama
 Naruto(Current)
 Madara (EMS)
 Six Paths of Tobi
 Minato
 Nagato
 Itachi
 Six Paths of Pain
 Sasuke (EMS)
 Killer Bee
 Tobi (Pre Rinnegan)
 Danzo
 Hiruzen (Prime)
 Hanzo (Prime)

*A+*

 Naruto (Pre-BM) 
 Sasuke (MS)
 Naruto (Pre-KCM)
 Onoki
 Jiraiya
 Orochimaru
 Muu 
 Might Guy
 Tobirama
 Kakashi
 Sandaime Raikage
 Nidaime Mizukage
 Gaara
 Sasori
 White Fang
 Shisui
 Sandaime Kazekage
 Deidara
 Hebi Sasuke

*A*

 Mei
 Tsunade
 Kakuzu
 Kisame
 Yondaime Kazekage
 A
 Hiruzen (old)
 Kinkaku/Ginkaku
 Naruto (Pre SM)
 Konan
 Chiyo
 Hidan
 Dan
 Zetsu
 Hanzo (Rusty) 

*A-*

 Kimimaro
 Zabuza
 Darui
 Kitsuchi
 Mifune
 Asuma
 Yamato
 Chouji
 Hizashi
 Hiashi
 Kankuro
 Rest of 7 Swordsmen
 Suigetsu
 Juugo
 Kurenai
 Chojiro

*B+*

 Ao
 Baki
 Inoichi
 Shikaku
 Chouza
 Samui
 Kurotsuchi
 Temari
 Sai
 Neji
 Torune
 Fu
 Shikamaru


*B*

 Sakura
Akatsuchi
Shizune
Anko
Genma
Aoba
Rock Lee
Shino 

*B-*

Kiba
Hayate 
Omoi
Shin

*C+*

Karui
Atsui
C
Hinata

*C*

Haku
Kidomaru
Tayuya
Jirobo
Sakon/Ukon 

*C-*

Iruka
Obito
Ebisu
Kotetsu
Izumo
Ino

*D+*

Konohamaru
Karin
Tenten

*D*

Dosu
Mizuki
Zaku
Rin

*D-*

Demon Brothers
Maki
Kin


----------



## Vice (Aug 19, 2012)

KAKASHI10 said:


> KAKASHI10 Tier SHORT list .......
> 
> 
> *S+*
> ...



We're ignoring this shit, right?


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 19, 2012)

Vice said:


> We're ignoring this shit, right?



Obviously. He didn't list all the characters and it's obviously just a troll post.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 19, 2012)

Vice said:


> We're ignoring this shit, right?


He didn't follow the rules so, that goes without saying.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2012)

Is it okay I put Juubi and Rikudo in a Z category?


----------



## Turrin (Aug 19, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Is it okay I put Juubi and Rikudo in a Z category?


No you got to use only the tier brackets that were voted on S+ - D-. Also were not ranking Juubi. I will still count your tier list if you do rank Juubi tho, just saying it won't count towards anything. Also remember you have to rank all the required characters, not sure if you did or didn't since I haven't seen your tier list specifically, but just a heads up.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 19, 2012)

S+
Rikudou Senin
Edo Madara
Tobi w/ Rinnengan
Hashirama
BM Naruto
EMS Madara
Kabuto w/ Edo Tensei

S
Nagato
Minato
Itachi
Kabuto w/o Edo tensei
KCM Naruto
Killer Bee
EMS Sasuke
Sharingan Tobi

S-
TrollKage
Muu
Sandaime Raikage
SM Jiriaya
SM Naruto/MS Sasuke
Six Paths of Pain
Prime Hiruzen
Orochimaru w/ Edo Tensei
Oonoki
Kakashi
Gai
V2 Ei
Kisame
Danzo

A+
White Fang
Hanzo
Tsunade
Tobirama
Kakazu
Gaara
Mei
Sasori
Konan
Gin/Kin Bro's
Edo Jinchuriki

A-(Kage Level)
Mifune
Diedara
Zetsu
Hidan
Chiyo
Kimmimaro
Post Futton Naruto
Hebi Sasuke
Seven Swordsman of the Mist.

B+(elite Jonin)
Darui
Kitsuchi
Asuma
Dan
Hiashi/Hizashi Hyuuga
Zabuza
Pt.1 Kakashi
Pt.1 Kabuto
Haku
Ino-Shika-Cho(elder)
Fu/Torune
Chojuro
Chouza 
Yamato
Ao
Kankorou
Sai
Omoi
Suigetsu
Juugo
Samui

B
Shizune
Chouji
Neji
Lee
Kurenai
Raito
Genma
Shikamaru
Temari
Shi
Karui
Atsui


B-
Shino
Kiba
Hinata
Sakura
Ino
Hayate
Aoba
Baki
Sound 4 w/ CS2
Gated Lee/SSR Neji/KN0/CS2 Sasuke
C+
Shin
Obito
Gaiden Kakashi
Anbu Agents(general)
Sound 4(no CS2)

C
Iruka
Konohamaru
Pre skip Konoha 11(minus CS2 Sasuke, Gated Lee, and KN0)
Mizuki

C-
Rin
Dosu
Zaku
Yoroi

D+
Demon Brothers
Kin

Any revisions or requirements would be much appreciated


----------



## Jak N Blak (Aug 19, 2012)

I think Kurama, Shukaku and Gyuuki need to be on this tier list separate from their Jins. They have enough feats and hype of their own to be here unlike the other beasts and many of the 'fodder' characters.




Turrin said:


> Alright sorry guys, Naruto has spoken and therefore we got to start the tiering processes over again. The rules remain the same as last time, except this time everyone has to rank the following characters on their tier list:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



MY LIST IS CURRENTLY A WORK IN PROGRESS. 
- RESERVED -

S+
- Rikudo Sennin: A lord in the universe.

S 
(These men could have the world at their feet)
- Kabuto
- EDO Tensei Uchiha Madara
- Rinnegan Tobi (Will take the top spot once Juubi is revived.)

S-
(These men can casually change Kilometers worth of landscape.)
- Uzumaki Naruto
- Hashirama Senju
- EMS Madara
- Nagato
- Six Paths of Tobi

A+
(These men seem untouchable to those below this tier they're in.)
- Sharingan Tobi
- Minato Namikaze
- Orochimaru
- Hiruzen Sarutobi (Prime)
- KCM Naruto
- Six Paths of Pain
- EMS Sasuke

A+
(These men know they are inferior to those above them but would be fearless if confronted by them.)
- Uchiha Itachi
- Onoki
- Danzo
- Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke
- Sage Naruto
- Old *Solid snake!!!* Hiruzen 
- Tobirama Senju
- Hanzo (Prime)
- White Fang
- Jiraiya
- 3rd Raikage
- Kakashi
- Might Gai
- Killer Bee
- Ginkaku & Kinkaku

A
(These men are solid Kage levels. But would reach the next tier if in a certain location, etc. Examaple: Gaara in the desert, Konan next to her prepped Paper Ocean, Kisame in a large body of water.)
- Konan
- Shisui
- Ei
- Muu
- Nidaime Mizukage
- Kisame
- Gaara
- Hebi Sasuke
- Sasori
- Deidara
- Fuuton Naruto
- Tsunade
- Mei
- Sandaime Kazekage
- Yondaime Kazekage

A-
- Kitsuchi
- Darui
- Chouji
- Kakuzu
- Mangetsu
- Mifune
- Fu

B+
- Kimimaro
- Chiyo
- Hidan
- Juugo

B
- Dan
- Yamato
- Neji Hyuuga
- Zabuza
- Haku
- Asuma
- Temari
- Kurotsuchi
- Suigetsu

B-
- Choza
- Zetsu
 - Hizashi
- Hiashi

C+
- Sai
- Sakura
- Konkuro
- Chojuro

C
- Shikamaru
- Torune
- Omoi

C-
- Rock Lee
- Kidomaru
- Hinata
- Kiba

D+
- Shikaku
- Shino
- Inochi
- Ao
- Kiba

D
- Kurenai
- Ino
- C
- Genma
- Shin

D-
- Sakon/Ukon
- Zaku
- Tenten
- Anko
- Shizune
- Tayuya
- Dosu
- Karui
- Jirobo
- Demon Brothers
- Konohamaru
- Aoba
- Obito
-Iruka
-Hayate
- Samui
- Karin
- Atsui
- Maki
- Mizuki
- Baki
- Rin


----------



## Turrin (Aug 19, 2012)

Jak N Blak said:


> I think Kurama, Shukaku and Gyuuki need to be on this tier list separate from their Jins. They have enough feats and hype of their own to be here unlike the other beasts and many of the 'fodder' characters.


Like I said to another poster, let's stick to shinobi for now. Once we get that squared away we might rank all of the Bijuu and by than they may have accumulate more feats as well.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 19, 2012)

*S+*
Nidaime Mizukage ()
Rikudo Sennin

*S*
Kabuto (With Edo Tensei)
Edo Madara
Tobi (Rinnegan)
Naruto(Current)

*S-*
Hashirama
Sasuke (EMS)
Madara (EMS)
Six Paths of Tobi

*A+*
Tobi (Pre Rinnegan)
Nagato
Minato
Tobirama

*A*
Hiruzen (Prime)
White Fang
Naruto (Pre-BM)
Hanzo (Prime)
Itachi

*A-*
Six Paths of Pain
Naruto (Pre-KCM)
Killer Bee
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
Tsunade
Sasuke (MS)
Danzo
Muu
Kisame
Gaara
Sandaime Raikage

*B+*
Kinkaku/Ginkaku
Onoki
Kakuzu
A
Konan
Sasori
Deidara
Hebi Sasuke
Might Guy
Kakashi
Mei
Yondaime Kazekage

*B*
Hiruzen (old)
Mifune
Hanzo (Rusty)
Naruto (Pre SM)
Sandaime Kazekage
Shisui

*B-*
Juugo
Hidan
Zabuza
Dan
Kimimaro
Asuma
Darui
Kitsuchi
Kurenai
Neji
Hizashi
Hiashi
Yamato
Chiyo
Temari
Anko

*C+*
Torune
Fu
Shizune
Zetsu
Chojuro
Inoichi
Chouza

*C*
Tenten
Sai
Suigetsu
Rock Lee
Shino
Sakura
Hinata
Kiba
Chouji
Kurotsuchi
Shikamaru
Ino
C
Ao
Akatsuchi
Genma
Aoba
Hayate
Kankuro

*C-*
Baki
Haku
Tayuya
Kidomaru
Sakon/Ukon
Jirobo

*D+*
Atsui
Karui
Karin
Shin
Shikaku
Samui
Omoi

*D*
Iruka
Mizuki
Konohamaru

*D-*
Dosu
Zaku
Rin
Kin
Obito
Demon Brothers
Maki​
Trollkage is unstoppable. 

**

Got lazy near the end and started randomly putting the ones I didn't know the names of in categories.

Probably gonna edit this list latter when I have more time.


----------



## eyeknockout (Aug 19, 2012)

S+
Rikudo Sennin
Madara (edo)
Tobi (Rinnegan)
Hashirama
Naruto(Current)


S
six paths of tobi
Madara (EMS)
Nagato/Itachi
Naruto (Pre-BM)
Minato
Kabuto 

S-
Six Paths of Pain
Sasuke (EMS)
Tobi (Pre Rinnegan)
Killer Bee
Naruto (Pre-KCM)
Sasuke (MS)
Danzo

A+
Hiruzen (Prime)
Onoki
A
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Nidaime Mizukage
Muu 
Sandaime Raikage


A
Hanzo (Prime)
Gaara
Sasori
Might Guy
Kisame
Deidara
Tobirama
Kakuzu
Kakashi
Hiruzen (old)



A- 
White Fang
Shisui
Sandaime Kazekage
Yondaime Kazekage
Hebi Sasuke
Mifune
Kinkaku/Ginkaku
Naruto (Pre SM)
Konan

B+
hanzo (rusty)
tsunade
mei
Darui
Kitsuchi
Chiyo
Kimimaro
Zabuza
Hidan
Asuma
Yamato

B
Dan
Zetsu
Neji
Chouji
Hizashi
Hiashi
Temari
Sai

B-
Suigetsu
Torune
Fu
Haku
Shikamaru
Sakura
Juugo
Kurotsuchi
Kurenai
Kankuro
Akatsuchi

C
Shizune
Ao
Rock Lee
Shino
Chojuro
Inoichi
C

C-
Shino
Kidomaru
Chouza
Hinata
Shikaku
Tayuya

D+
Konohamaru
Jirobo
Ino
Sakon/Ukon
Tenten
Baki


Zaku
Anko
Rin
Kin
Kiba
Genma
Aoba

D
Hayate
Samui
Omoi
Karui
Karin
Shin
Atsui

D-
Iruka
Obito
Dosu
Demon Brothers
Maki
Mizuki


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 19, 2012)

I like feats list, but ill bite. Hype included list:
*Characters within tiers not really in order
*S+*
Rikudo Sennin

*S*
Madara (edo)
Tobi (Rinnegan)
Six Paths of Tobi
Madara (EMS)
Hashirama
Naruto(Current)
Kabuto 
Nagato
Itachi
Six Paths of Pain

*S-*
Sasuke (EMS)
Minato
Tobi (Pre Rinnegan)
Danzo
Naruto (Pre-BM)
Sasuke (MS)
Shisui Uchiha
Hanzo (Prime)

*A+*
Killer Bee
Naruto (Pre-KCM)
Kakashi
Deidara
Hiruzen (Prime)
Onoki
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Nidaime Mizukage
Kisame

*A*
Kakuzu
Muu
Gaara
Sasori
Hebi Sasuke
Sandaime Raikage
Might Guy
Tobirama
A

*A-*
Hiruzen (old)
Mei
Hanzo (Rusty) 
Sandaime Kazekage
Yondaime Kazekage
Konan
Zetsu

*B+*
Mifune
Kinkaku/Ginkaku
Tsunade
White Fang
Dan
Yamato
Darui
Chiyo
Kimimaro
Zabuza

*B*
Kankuro
Naruto (Pre SM)
Kitsuchi
Hidan
Asuma
Suigetsu
Juugo

*B-*
Kitsuchi
Hizashi
Hiashi
Chouji
Temari
Neji
Rock Lee

*C+*
Sai
C
Shino
Chojuro
Shikamaru

*C*
Inoichi
Torune
Fu
Haku
Kiba
Kidomaru
Shikaku

*C-*
Tayuya
Jirobo
Kurenai
Kurotsuchi
Chouza
Hinata
Sakon/Ukon

*D+*
Karin
Sakura
Ao
Akatsuchi
Shizune

*D*
Konohamaru
Ino
Obito
Demon Brothers
Samui
Omoi
Karui
Tenten
Zaku
Anko
Aoba
Hayate
Dosu

*D-*
Rin
Kin
Baki
Genma
Shin
Atsui
Iruka
Maki
Mizuki


----------



## Turrin (Aug 20, 2012)

Just a heads up this will be the last day where people can add their tier list, so everyone try and get done by tonight.


----------



## Black☆Star (Aug 20, 2012)

S+
Rikudo Sennin

S
Madara [Edo Tensei]
Tobi [Rinnegan]
Naruto [BM]
Kabuto [With Edo Tensei]

S-
Nagato
Hashirama
Madara [EMS]

A+
Six Paths of Pain
RM Naruto
Minato
Itachi
Tobi [Pre-Rinnegan]
EMS Sasuke 
Killer B


A
Danzo
Hanzo [Prime]
Jiraiya
Oonoki
Orochimaru
Sandaime Raikage
Muu
Gaara
Nidaime Mizukage
Ei


A-
Kakashi
Yondaime Kazekage
Kisame
Naruto [SM]
Sasuke [MS]
Tobirama 
Hiruzen [Old]
Shisui
Kinkaku & Ginkaku
Deidara
Gai

B+
White Fang
Sasori
Mei Terumi
Tsunade
Sasuke [Hebi]
Mifune
Konan
Darui

B
Kushina
Kakuzu
Naruto [Pre-SM]
Hidan
Chiyo
Yamato
Zabuza
Kankuro

B-
Mangetsu
Zetsu
Temari
Dan
Suigetsu
Juugo
Chouji
Chojuro
Ao
Fu 
Torune
Inoichi 
Chouza
C
Kurotsuchi
Akatsuchi
Sai
Neji
Asuma
Shikaku
Shikamaru
Shizune
Kurenai
Hizashi
Hiashi

C+
Jinin Akebino
Suikazan Fuguki
Kuriarare Kushimaru 
Munashi Jinpachi
Ringo Ameyuri
Kimimaro
Shino
Sakura
Anko
Hinata
Omoi
Aoba
Tenten
Rock Lee
Kiba
Gemna
Raido
Karui
Atsui
Samui
Shin

C
Tayuya
Haku
Kidomaru
Sakon and Ukon
Jirobu
Karin
Izumo
Kotetsu
Ebisu

C-
Obito
Iruka
Konohamaru

D+
Rin

D
Dosu 
Maki

D-
Mizuki
Demon Brothers
Kin Tsuchi
Zaku Abumi
Yoroi Akadō
Misumi Tsurugi


----------



## Octavian (Aug 20, 2012)

S+
Rikudo Sennin
Juubi

S
Madara [Edo Tensei]
Tobi [Rinnegan]
Naruto [BM]
Kabuto [With Edo Tensei]
Hashirama
Madara [EMS]

S-
Nagato
Naruto [Pre-BM]
Minato
Itachi
Kabuto [SM]
Sasuke [EMS]
Tobi [Pre-Rinnegan/ Izanagi]
Six Paths of Pain

A+

Killer B
Onoki
Muu

A
Sasuke [MS]
Naruto [SM]
Ei
Sandaime Raikage
Danzo
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
Nidaime Mizukage

A-
Gaara
Kakashi
Yondaime Kazekage
Kisame
Tobirama 
Hiruzen [Old]
Shisui
Kinkaku & Ginkaku
Deidara
Gai
Sasuke [Hebi]

B+
White Fang
Sasori
Mei Terumi
Tsunade
Mifune
Konan
Darui
Kakuzu

B
Kushina
Naruto [Pre-SM]
Hidan
Chiyo
Yamato
Zabuza
Kankuro

B-
Mangetsu
Zetsu
Temari
Dan
Suigetsu
Juugo
Chouji
Chojuro
Ao
Fu 
Torune
Inoichi 
Chouza
C
Kurotsuchi
Akatsuchi
Sai
Neji
Asuma
Shikaku
Shikamaru
Shizune
Kurenai
Hizashi
Hiashi

C+
Jinin Akebino
Suikazan Fuguki
Aoba
Kuriarare 
Munashi Jinpachi
Ringo Ameyuri
Kimimaro
Shino
Sakura
Anko
Hinata
Omoi
Tenten
Rock Lee
Kiba
Gemna
Raido
Karui
Atsui
Samui
Shin

C
Tayuya
Haku
Kidomaru
Sakon and Ukon
Jirobu
Karin
Izumo
Kotetsu
Ebisu

C-
Obito
Iruka
Konohamaru

D+
Rin

D
Dosu 
Maki

D-
Mizuki
Demon Brothers
Kin Tsuchi
Zaku Abumi
Yoroi Akadō
Misumi Tsurugi

Based off BlackStar's list with a few modifications.


----------



## Santoryu (Aug 20, 2012)

S+
Rikudo Sennin
Juubi

S
Madara [Edo Tensei]
Tobi [Rinnegan]
Naruto [BM]
Kabuto [With Edo Tensei]


S-
Hashirama
Madara [EMS]
Sasuke [EMS] (?)


A+

Nagato (?)
Tobi [Pre-Rinnegan/ Izanagi] (?)
Naruto [Pre-BM]
Six Paths of Pain
Minato
Itachi
Killer B


A
Naruto [SM] (?)
Kakashi Hatake
Might Gai
Sasuke [MS] (?)
White Fang (?)
Ei
Sandaime Raikage
Danzo
Onoki
Muu
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
Nidaime Mizukage

A-
Kisame
Gaara
Mangetsu (?)
Yondaime Kazekage
Tobirama 
Shisui
Sasuke [Hebi]
Deidara
Sasori
Kakuzu
Tsunade
Mei Terumi
Konan
Kinkaku & Ginkaku (?)



B+

Naruto [Pre-SM]
Mifune
Darui
Hiruzen [Old]

B
Zabuza
Kushina (?)
Hidan
Chiyo
Yamato
Kankuro

B-
Zetsu
Temari
Dan
Suigetsu
Juugo
Chouji
Chojuro
Ao
Fu 
Torune
Inoichi 
Chouza
C
Kurotsuchi
Akatsuchi
Sai
Neji
Asuma
Shikaku
Shikamaru
Shizune
Kurenai
Hizashi
Hiashi

C+
Jinin Akebino
Suikazan Fuguki
Aoba
Kuriarare 
Munashi Jinpachi
Ringo Ameyuri
Kimimaro
Shino
Sakura
Anko
Hinata
Omoi
Tenten
Rock Lee
Kiba
Gemna
Raido
Karui
Atsui
Samui
Shin

C
Tayuya
Haku
Kidomaru
Sakon and Ukon
Jirobu
Karin
Izumo
Kotetsu
Ebisu

C-
Obito
Iruka
Konohamaru

D+
Rin

D
Dosu 
Maki

D-
Mizuki
Demon Brothers
Kin Tsuchi
Zaku Abumi
Yoroi Akadō
Misumi Tsurugi

Based off BlackStar's list with a few modifications. I didn't bother even looking at some of the lower parts  So if anything looks weird, blame BlackStar


----------



## Octavian (Aug 20, 2012)

@Santoryu: don't blame you. i literally didn't recognize half the people below the C tier. and tbh at that point, it really became hard to separate people into tiers as that point they're all...fodder.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 20, 2012)

For people who don't recognize characters  is your friend.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Aug 20, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Just a heads up this will be the last day where people can add their tier list, so everyone try and get done by tonight.



Wait wutt?

There are gonna be more openings to change the tier list right?

Cuz currently I cant really rank a lot of characters (EMS Sasuke) and I'm curious to see what his feats are

For my rankings I'm interest in things like: do EMS Sasuke and BM Naruto equal each other, does Sasuke have prefect Susanoo like Madara etc

Also I find it difficult to fully rank EMS Madara. I'm re-readin the battle and more curious to find out what exactly is Rinnegan Madara feats vs EMS Madara feat


I'll rank them more accordingly if BM Naruto shows his face agin (next chapter) and EMS Sasuke displays his stuff


Lower tiers are fine, but upper tiers are messy. And need more manga panel time for definitive answers


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 20, 2012)

@hitokugutsu
I assume the complete tier list is going to be updated when we get new feats from certain characters. So just rank the characters with their current feats. EMS Sasuke might not have much at this point, but he'll surely rise in ranks later on.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Aug 20, 2012)

We know EMS Sasuke > MS Sasuke so at lowest he shouldn't be ranked a tier below MS Sasuke.

I also don't think tier list should be over looked if they didn't list every single character if they put the time and effort into their list and listed most of the characters their list should be counted, tier list are mostly debates about the upper echelons anyway.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Aug 20, 2012)

JuubiSage said:


> @hitokugutsu
> I assume the complete tier list is going to be updated when we get new feats from certain characters. So just rank the characters with their current feats. EMS Sasuke might not have much at this point, but he'll surely rise in ranks later on.





Eliyua23 said:


> We know EMS Sasuke > MS Sasuke so at lowest he shouldn't be ranked a tier below MS Sasuke.



Yeah but I'm more curious to see _exactly_ how EMS Sasuke performs, specifically to rank *full potential* MS Sasuke


*Spoiler*: __ 








Above page shows MS Sasuke reaching full Susanoo with an Amaterasu orb in his hand and most likely a secondary weapon in his other hand. 
We never saw this Sasuke perform. But since we also rank things like *prime Hiruzen*, I'd like to rank MS Sasuke with his full potential

And seeing what EMS Sasuke has shown sofar (Amaterasu magatama and Sword), these are things that MS Sasuke most likely also could do (since he also had tha Ama orb). Legendary weapons for Full Susanoo should not be underestimated. It was one of the thing why Itachi was called "invincible"
Therefore I'm curious to find out what Sasuke had _back then_ 

Also note, MS Sasuke *was not fully blind* when taking Itachi's eyes. In fact his vision was almost similar to Itachi's vision when he was facing Sasuke in the Uchiha Hideout
Therefore, for ranking MS Sasuke (among other characters) I'm curious in EMS Sasuke


----------



## JPongo (Aug 20, 2012)

My rough list.


*Spoiler*: __ 




S+
RS

S
Madara (Edo)
Tobi (Rinnegan)
Naruto (Current)
Kabuto

S-
Minato
Hashirama
Nagato
Madara (EMS)
Six Paths of Tobi
Hiruzen (Prime)

A+
Sasuke (EMS)
Naruto (Pre-BM)
Tobi (Pre-Rinnegan)
Six Paths of Pain
Hanzo (Prime)

A
Killer Bee
Naruto (Pre-KCM)
Tobirama
Sandaime Raikage
Nidaime Mizukage
White Fang
Kinkaku/Ginkaku

A-
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
Tsunade
A
Oonoki
Danzo
Muu
Sasuke (MS)
Shisui
Itachi
Hiruzen (old)
Gaara
Sandaime Kazekage
Yondaime Kazekage
Mifune
Hanzo (Rusty)
Sasori
Mei
Kakuzu
Chiyo
Kimimaro
Dan

B+
Kakashi
Might Guy
Kisame
Deidara
Hebi Sasuke
Naruto (Pre SM)
Konan
Darui
Kitsuchi
Zabuza
Hidan
Asuma
Suigetsu
Torune
Fu
Haku
Juugo
Shikaku
Ao
Kitsuchi

B
Yamato
Neji
Chouji
Chouza
Hizashi
Hiashi
Temari
Shikamaru
Kurenai
Kankuro
Rock Lee
Shino
Chojuro
Inoichi
C
Anko
Kiba
Akatsuchi
Baki
Kurotsuchi
Omoi

B-
Sai
Sakura
Hinata
Ino
Tenten
Samui
Atsui
Genma
Karui
Maki

C+
Sakon/Ukon
Kidomaru
Tayuya
Aoba
Jirobo

C
Shizune
Obito
Zetsu
Dosu
Hayate
Mizuki
Shin

C-
Karin
Iruka

D+
Konohamaru
Zaku

D
Rin

D-
Kin


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Aug 20, 2012)

*(Alphabetical)

S+*
Rikudou

*S*
Hanzo
Hashirama
Hiruzen
Kabuto
Madara
Naruto (KCM)
Sasuke (EMS)
Tobi (Rikudou)

*S-*
Itachi
Jiraiya
Minato
Nagato
Orochimaru (w/ arms)
Tobi

*A+*
2nd Mizukage
3rd Raikage
Bee
Danzo
Ginkaku
Kakuzu
Kinkaku
Mangetsu (w/ all 7 swords)
Muu
Naruto (Sage)
Orochimaru (Armless)
Sasuke (MS)
Tobirama
Yagura

*A*
3rd Kazekage
4th Kazekage
Deidara
 Ei
Gaara
Gai
Han
Kakashi
Kisame
Mei
Mifune
Onoki
Roushi
Sakumo
Sasori
Sasuke (Hebi)
Shisui
Tsunade
Yugito

*A-*
Chiyo
Dan
Darui
Fuu
Hidan
Kimimaro
Kitsuchi
Konan
Lee
Neji
Utakata
Zabuza
Zetsu

*B+*
Asuma
Chouji
Chouza
Haku
Hiashi
Inoichi
Juugo
Kankuro
Kurenai
Sai
Shibi
Shikaku
Shikamaru
Suigetsu
Temari
Tsume
Yahiko
Yamato

*B*
Akatsuchi
Ameyuri
Ao
Baki
Chojuro
Dodai
Fu Yamanaka
Fuguki
Gari
Jinin
Jinpachi
Kurotsuchi
Kushimaru
Pakura
Sakura
Torune

*B-*
Anko
Hinata
 Ino
Jirobo
 Kiba
 Kidomaru
 Tayuya
Sakon/Ukon
Shii
Shino

*C+*
Aoba
Atsui
Ebisu
Genma
Hayate
Karui
Konohamaru
Obito
Omoi
Raido
Samui
Shizune
 Tenten
Yugao

*C*
 Gouzu
Iruka
Maki
 Meizu
Mizuki
Motoi
Shin
 Yoroi

*C-*
Karin

*D+*
Dosu
 Rin
   Zaku

*D*
Kin
 Moegi
 Udon

*D-*
Academy students (can't think of specific names to put here)

I'm not doing this one more damned time, so don't tell me I forgot anyone.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Aug 20, 2012)

S+
Rikudo Sennin
Juubi

S
Kabuto w/edo tensei
Edo Madara
Rinnegan Tobi
BM Naruto 
Hashirama
EMS Madara

S-
Nagato
RM Naruto
Minato
SM Kabuto
EMS Sasuke
Itachi
Tobi's six paths of pain.

A+
Killer B
Onoki
Muu
Third Raikage
Pre Rinnegan Tobi

A
Six Paths of Pain
MS Sasuke/SM Naruto
4th Raikage
Jiraiya
Orochimaru

A-
Danzo
Gaara
Kakashi/Gai
Yondaime Kazekage
Kisame
Tobirama
Old Hiruzen
Shisui
Deidara
Hebi Sasuke

B+
Kin and Ginkaku
White Fang
Sasori
Mei Terumi
Tsunade
Mifune
Konan
Darui
Kakuzu

B
Kushina
Naruto Pre-SM
Hidan
Chiyo
Yamato
Zabuza
Kankuro

B-
Mangetsu
Zetsu
Temari
Dan
Suigetsu
Juugo
Chouji
Chojuro
Ao
Fu
Torune
Inoichi
Chouza
C
Kurotsuchi
Akatsuchi
Sai
Neji
Asuma
Shikaku
Shikamaru
Shizune
Kurenai
Hizashi
Hiashi

C+
Jinin Akebino
Suikazan Fuguki
Aoba
Kuriarare
Munashi Jinpachi
Ringo Ameyuri
Kimimaro
Shino
Sakura
Anko
Hinata
Omoi
Tenten
Rock Lee
Kiba
Gemna
Raido
Karui
Atsui
Samui
Shin

C
Tayuya
Haku
Kidomaru
Sakon and Ukon
Jirobu
Karin
Izumo
Kotetsu
Ebisu

C-
Obito
Iruka
Konohamaru

D+
Rin

D
Dosu
Maki

D-
Mizuki
Demon Brothers
Kin Tsuchi
Zaku Abumi
Yoroi Akadō
Misumi Tsurugi


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Aug 20, 2012)

It's amazing to me that people are ranking Jiraiya so far apart from Itachi and Nagato, aside from other glaring problems which a lot of people are making.


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 20, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> It's amazing to me that people are ranking Jiraiya so far apart from Itachi and Nagato.



I guess Itachi is more debatable but Nagato destroyed Jiraiya in a weaker form and then beat Jiraiya's superior after soloing a village.  Nagato should be well above Jiraiya.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Aug 20, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> It's amazing to me that people are ranking Jiraiya so far apart from Itachi and Nagato, aside from other glaring problems which a lot of people are making.


I'd say Jirayia is on the same tier as the six paths of pain but not the Nagato we saw Naruto and co fight.

A problem I see is people putting Itachi above the likes of SM Kabuto/Nagato/Minato and some putting him an entire tier above EMS Sasuke.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Aug 20, 2012)

jimbob631 said:


> I guess Itachi is more debatable but Nagato destroyed Jiraiya in a weaker form and then beat Jiraiya's superior after soloing a village.  Nagato should be well above Jiraiya.



Jiraiya destroyed 3 Peins without being touched once, then was ambushed which severely crippled him, then still couldn't be killed by all five Peins working together and still managed to kill another one with just one arm, then was finally killed when he exited Sage Mode and tried to confirm his theory, and finally Pein himself said that he would had lost if Jiraiya knew his secret... Nagato. So why are people placing Jiraiya two, three, or more tiers below Nagato/Pein?



Thdyingbreed said:


> I'd say Jirayia is on the same tier as the  six paths of pain but not the Nagato we saw Naruto and co fight.
> 
> A problem I see is people putting Itachi above the likes of SM  Kabuto/Nagato/Minato and some putting him an entire tier above EMS  Sasuke.



Nagato said he would had lost to Jiraiya, and this was a Nagato that had access to Gedo Mazo and the chakra of 7 Bijuus, as well as having the chakra spikes that he can use to control those in close proximity to him; clearly more powerful than the one that fought Naruto and co.

That is a problem, other problems are like placing Old Hiruzen below characters like Ei or Onoki, which he was stated to still be stronger than. At the very least he should still be in their tier, not lower.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Aug 20, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Nagato said he would had lost to Jiraiya, and this was a Nagato that had access to Gedo Mazo and the chakra of 7 Bijuus, as well as having the chakra spikes that he can use to control those in close proximity to him; clearly more powerful than the one that fought Naruto and co.
> 
> That is a problem, other problems are like placing Old Hiruzen below characters like Ei or Onoki, which he was stated to still be stronger than. At the very least he should still be in their tier, not lower.


That was with knowledge though and I have my doubts Jirayia would be able to deal with Gedo Mazo or his strongest attacks such as CT or CST. 

Nagato who the trio fought was implied to be above RM Naruto, Killer Bee, and Itachi individually who are viewed to be stronger then Jirayia.

I and a lot of people don't buy into the Prime Hiruzen hype so I choose to rank him based off of the feats he has.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Aug 20, 2012)

I agree, I dont see anything in the manga that separates   Itachi~Nagato~Minato~Jiriyia from each other maybe Minato is slightly stronger than the rest,but not so much he's on another tier, the only true upper tiers are 

Hashirama~ Madara~ Kabuto~ Tobi and Naruto and Sasuke at the end






Thdyingbreed said:


> I'd say Jirayia is on the same tier as the six paths of pain but not the Nagato we saw Naruto and co fight.
> 
> A problem I see is people putting Itachi above the likes of SM Kabuto/Nagato/Minato and some putting him an entire tier above EMS Sasuke.



Nagato only fought with Pain in life , of he was stronger on his own why use the proxy, that's why that fight was PIS , you got thebest CQC fighters in the manga against an immobile target they have knowledge on, Naruto/Bee should've squashed Nagato like a bug


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Aug 20, 2012)

I should probably add something I was ranking Itachi based off his edo tensei version except without the infinite chakra and suffering drawbacks from the Mangekyo. 

Since in his fight against Sasuke he actually used more in his individual fights as an edo tensei though of course he would suffer drawbacks.

Should we add Edo or healthly version of Itachi to rank just like we have for Madara or clarify it that we are ranking sick Itachi?

Because if were ranking a sick Itachi he wouldn't be on that tier in my books.


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 20, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Jiraiya destroyed 3 Peins without being touched once,



Three pain bodies is half as strong as all 6 bodies and even weaker than Nagato not using the bodies.  



UltimateDeadpool said:


> then was ambushed which severely crippled him, then still couldn't be killed by all five Peins working together and still managed to kill another one with just one arm, then was finally killed when he exited Sage Mode and tried to confirm his theory, and finally Pein himself said that he would had lost if Jiraiya knew his secret... Nagato. So why are people placing Jiraiya two, three, or more tiers below Nagato/Pein?



Pain didn't use any of his abilities he just charged at him.  Naruto, who was confirmed as superior to Jiraiya lost to an exhausted Pain who just destroyed a village and that isn't even Nagato at his strongest.  You can argue Jiraiya should be in the same tier as the 6 paths, but not Nagato.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 20, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:
			
		

> Jiraiya destroyed 3 Peins without being touched once, then was ambushed which severely crippled him, then still couldn't be killed by all five Peins working together and still managed to kill another one with just one arm, then was finally killed when he exited Sage Mode and tried to confirm his theory, and finally Pein himself said that he would had lost if Jiraiya knew his secret... Nagato. So why are people placing Jiraiya two, three, or more tiers below Nagato/Pein?
> 
> Nagato said he would had lost to Jiraiya, and this was a Nagato that had access to Gedo Mazo and the chakra of 7 Bijuus, as well as having the chakra spikes that he can use to control those in close proximity to him; clearly more powerful than the one that fought Naruto and co.



Why do you bother posting this shit...isn't it clear to you that no one cares? No one agreed with you over 4 years ago when you first said it, right? How about 3 years ago? Still no one, right? How about 2 years ago? How about last year? Nope, still not a single person.

Just accept that it's your own personal biased dream. Stop trying to impose it on other people...every post you make about it is cancer on this forum.

_Nobody cares_. _Nobody. Not a single person._


----------



## Vice (Aug 21, 2012)

I know this wasn't "approved" or whatever, but I took the liberty of averaging out everyone's list like I earlier suggested and if you want to use this or not is fine, I just hope this gives us a better idea of what we're looking at so far. Each number denotes average placement on our lists:

Rikudo Sennin - 1.00
Juubi - 2.00
Madara (edo) - 2.91
Tobi - 3.04
Kabuto (SM) - 3.48
Naruto (BM) - 5.41
Hashirama - 6.24
Madara (EMS) - 8.17
Six Paths of Tobi - 9.65
Sasuke (EMS) - 9.89
Nagato - 10.03
Minato - 10.53
Tobi (MS) - 11.49
Itachi - 12.04
Six Paths of Pain - 13.56
Hiruzen (prime) - 14.34
Naruto (RM) - 16.25
Hanzo (prime) - 18.21
Killer Bee - 18.35
Tobirama - 18.79
Naruto (SM) - 20.55
Jiraiya - 21.66
Danzo - 22.23
Sasuke (MS) - 22.66
Sakumo - 22.96
Orochimaru - 23.06
Muu - 26.24
Onoki - 28.66
Nidaime Mizukage - 29.26
Sandaime Raikage - 29.41
Gaara - 31.61
Kisame - 33.53
Might Guy - 33.71
Kakashi - 34.50
Sasori - 35.48
A - 35.85
Deidara - 37.02
Kakuzu - 37.63
Kinkaku/Ginkaku - 37.68
Sasuke (Hebi) - 37.92
Shisui - 38.59
Konan - 39.84
Tsunade - 39.89
Mei - 40.01
Hiruzen (old) - 40.21
Yondaime Kazekage - 41.66
Sandaime Kazekage - 42.29
Mifune - 47.94
Hanzo (rusty) - 48.56
Hidan - 48.74
Dan - 51.98
Kimimaro - 52.97
Darui - 53.67
Kitsuchi - 54.46
Zabuza - 55.92
Chiyo - 56.33
Asuma - 57.12
Juugo - 57.98
Yamato - 58.31
Mangetsu - 58.88
Hizashi - 61.50
Jinin - 62.00
Hiashi - 62.36
Zetsu - 63.86
Fuguki - 64.07
Jinpachi - 64.38
Kushimaru - 64.41
Ameyuri - 64.72
Neji - 65.87
Chouji - 66.59
Shikaku - 66.65
Temari - 66.89
Torune - 66.95
Chojuro - 67.29
Fu - 67.78
Inoichi - 67.91
Suigetsu - 69.63
Chouza - 71.30
Kurenai - 72.86
Sai - 73.13
Shizune - 73.47
Ao - 75.10
Anko - 75.19
Kankuro - 75.55
Kurotsuchi - 76.24
Sakura - 79.25
Rock Lee - 79.88
Akatsuchi - 80.85
Shikamaru - 81.06
Shino - 81.80
Baki - 82.79
C - 82.89
Kiba - 83.44
Hinata - 85.59
Genma - 85.61
Tenten - 86.75
Aoba - 87.50
Hayate - 89.16
Samui - 89.68
Haku - 89.83
Ino - 90.16
Karui - 93.64
Atsui - 94.08
Kidomaru - 94.20
Tayuya - 94.54
Omoi - 94.58
Sakon/Ukon - 95.61
Jirobo - 96.32
Shin - 96.44
Karin - 101.68
Iruka - 101.72
Konohamaru - 104.65
Obito - 106.08
Mizuki - 106.18
Dosu - 107.30
Kotetsu - 107.38
Rin - 108.49
Izumo - 108.50
Zaku - 108.64
Maki - 110.36
Demon Brothers - 110.90
Kin - 111.04

So far this is looking fairly decent.


----------



## Octavian (Aug 21, 2012)

that's a solid list. the averages came out pretty close to what i expected. excluding RS and juubi, the current top tiers + hashi dominating the top 5 and nagato/minato/ itachi/ pre-rinnegan tobi in the 5-10 positions.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 21, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Why do you bother posting this shit...isn't it clear to you that no one cares? No one agreed with you over 4 years ago when you first said it, right? How about 3 years ago? Still no one, right? How about 2 years ago? How about last year? Nope, still not a single person.
> 
> Just accept that it's your own personal biased dream. Stop trying to impose it on other people...every post you make about it is cancer on this forum.
> 
> _Nobody cares_. _Nobody. Not a single person._


Shintebuko I specifically stated in the rules to try and  avoid making baiting comments about other peoples tier list and this certainly qualifies. So cool your jets man. 



UltimateDeadpool said:


> It's amazing to me that people are ranking Jiraiya so far apart from Itachi and Nagato, aside from other glaring problems which a lot of people are making.


I'm not going to delve too deeply into the issue at this point, because I believe it should be something brought up in revisions. However in my opinion it's not that people are placing Jiraiya incorrectly for the most part, but it's that they are overrating Itachi, which is to be expect considering the Itachi/Uchiha-Fandom is pretty much the largest and most outspoken fandom on the board. However with that said I think you equally overrate Jiraiya. Nether Itachi nor Jiriaya have proven themselves to be on par with any of the people that they are being placed with imo.

But again this is just the prelim list, so let's save this talk for later. You can VM/PM if you want to discuss my comment specifically.




Vice said:


> I know this wasn't "approved" or whatever, but I took the liberty of averaging out everyone's list like I earlier suggested and if you want to use this or not is fine, I just hope this gives us a better idea of what we're looking at so far. Each number denotes average placement on our lists:
> .


Yo do realize none of this is accurate, considering no one has placed characters in a specific order within the tiers, right?

@Everyone 
Starts the averaging process and finished most of D- tier, I hope to get through D-C tier tomorrow and hope to finish the entire list by at least Thursday so look out for that. Also BTW the time to place tier list is closed, but anyone that missed out is more than welcome to join in for the revision process, which will start when I finish the tier list.


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 21, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> I'm not doing this one more damned time, so don't tell me I forgot anyone.



You forgot BM Naruto


----------



## Jad (Aug 21, 2012)

The top half of the tier list Vice posted is somewhat, or close to accurate. Although, Gaara, Danzo and SM Kabuto, are out of place. Seriously, Gaara beating the people below him, same with Danzo, is not believable. Starting to see Gaara as being overestimated.

The below half of the Tier List is a disgrace, seriously, is Rock Lee that shit? Below Sakura even? Something is wrong..........

The bottom half of the tier list is just plain rubbish.

The bottom half of the tier list is NOT EVEN CLOSE to accurate.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Aug 21, 2012)

That tier list actually came out pretty nicely though EMS Sasuke and Kabuto need to be moved down a little bit and Killer Bee certainly needs to be moved up.


----------



## Burke (Aug 21, 2012)

As much as i love the legend of the white fang, i believe most of you all are wrong in placing him so high.

Hell, Vice placed him above orochimaru.

At the very least, kakashi has surpassed him.


----------



## Vice (Aug 21, 2012)

That wasn't my list, that was the average placement per all of the lists posted here.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 21, 2012)

It was completely unnecessary to make that list when nobody placed characters in order within specific tiers. 

@Turin: Many people think Itachi > Jiraiya not just Itachi fans. Only a small minority (Jiraiya fans) think otherwise who still cling on to that baseless and outdated hype back in part 1 as their argument. I think people underrate Itachi when they place him in the same tier as Jiraiya.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 21, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> @Turin: Many people think Itachi > Jiraiya not just Itachi fans. Only a small minority (Jiraiya fans) think otherwise who still cling on to that baseless and outdated hype back in part 1 as their argument. I think people underrate Itachi when they place him in the same tier as Jiraiya.


I'm not going to get into this discussion right now. All I'll say is having been on the forum for 7 years I have seen plenty of polls and threads on the subject and typically it goes back and forth, usually with whatever character has appeared most recently in the manga winning the poll. Itachi appeared recently that's why he'd be in the lead right now, but next time Jiriaya appears he'll be in the lead and so on and so forth.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 21, 2012)

Turrin said:
			
		

> Shintebuko I specifically stated in the rules to try and avoid making baiting comments about other peoples tier list and this certainly qualifies. So cool your jets man.



I never made a comment about his tier list. *He* made a comment about tier lists, and then *you* agreed with him.


----------



## Joakim3 (Aug 21, 2012)

Vice's tier list seems pretty accurate, though Kabuto & EMS Sasuke seem a tad bit high, but other than that, It's a pretty damn good list 

Secondly are the _Pein Rikudo's_ going to be countered as part of Tobi & Nagato's arsenal or are the going to be independent in the official tier list?


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 21, 2012)

Did I sense a post about Itachi's powerlevel? Yep, I did. Itachi has proven that he is on the top tier section through his feats, but also through portrayal. I'm not gonna get into X vs Y just list objective feats.
-Beat Kakashi Pt. 1 with some low diff, escaped from Iwabura. Soloed Didedara and Orochimaru with Genjutsu.
-Blocked/reacted to Kirin, a small mountain buster.
-Capable of using a large chakra pool if needed(as he did in the Sasuke fight, which he threw)
-Holds a perfect defense and offense, and two respective Legendary weapons.
-Strong Genjutsu and hands down has the best feats in Genjutsu so far.
-Speed/Reactions on Par with SM Kabuto, Nagato, KCM Naruto and B.

Explain to me what is keeping Itachi so low?


----------



## Joakim3 (Aug 21, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Did I sense a post about Itachi's powerlevel? Yep, I did. Itachi has proven that he is on the top tier section through his feats, but also through portrayal. I'm not gonna get into X vs Y just list objective feats.
> -Beat Kakashi Pt. 1 with some low diff, escaped from Iwabura. Soloed Didedara and Orochimaru with Genjutsu.
> -Blocked/reacted to Kirin, a small mountain buster.
> -Capable of using a large chakra pool if needed(as he did in the Sasuke fight, which he threw)
> ...



Itachi has never been ranked low (excluding trolls/haters)...... It's just Kishi has taken the current power levels (ever since the Rin'negan was introduced) and just went utterly mental (it doesn't help that by virtue of being a top tier they can counter *every* one of his abilites)

When you look at what the current top tiers have produced. When you have people who can solo cities , casually fodderize 5 kages, slaughter an army division with one summon or single handedly end wars...... you really can't put them him in the same braket as them. 

Kishi simply put them on a completely different level of hax 

Along with Minato, Itachi will always be the border between high tiers and top tiers. Other than Narutoverse "roof" (Kabuto, Tobi, Naruto, Nagato, Madara & Hashirama) they can beat just about anyone in the manga, how that is a "bad" thing idk?


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 21, 2012)

Joakim3 said:


> Itachi has never been ranked low (excluding trolls/haters)...... It's just Kishi has taken the current power levels (ever since the Rin'negan was introduced) and just went utterly mental (it doesn't help that by virtue of being a top tier they can counter *every* one of his abilites)
> 
> When you look at what the current top tiers have produced. When you have people who can solo cities , casually fodderize 5 kages, slaughter an army division with one summon or single handedly end wars...... you really can't put them him in the same braket as them.
> 
> ...



This is once again under the flawed notion that Destructive Capability is everything. Every jutsu has a weakness just like every person and intelligent ninja(Kakashi, Itachi, Minato, Tobirama) can take advantage of that and defeat High level opponents with great DC. Not to mention things like Genjutsu and strategy that can completely turn a fight.


----------



## Joakim3 (Aug 21, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> This is once again under the flawed notion that Destructive Capability is everything. Every jutsu has a weakness just like every person and intelligent ninja(Kakashi, Itachi, Minato, Tobirama) can take advantage of that and defeat High level opponents with great DC. Not to mention things like Genjutsu and strategy that can completely turn a fight.



It's actually not flawed in a sense........ you can be a smartest man in the world, but If have a nuke and use it, your smarts go right out the window as you can't stop it

Yes Itachi is increadbly anaylitcal and has superb intelligence feats backed with his own hax, but when characters start using 23km Bijudama's, City+ oneshotting gravity attacks or a 2km tall chakra mech....... all his brains and intellect it mean nothing in the face of raw power

It doesn't help either than Naruto, Kabuto, Nagato, Tobi & Naruto are FARR from mentally slow and can use there powers very effectively.  

Side note: 
Every single top tiers can fight effectivly blind as all can sense or use shared vision, so Itachi's only trump of Genjustu is countered and rendered moot


----------



## Turrin (Aug 21, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> I never made a comment about his tier list. *He* made a comment about tier lists, and then *you* agreed with him.


You don't need to use the type of baiting language you did. Also you should note that I didn't completely agree with him ether.

*@Everyone* let's not get into a discussion of Itachi's "power level" until and if he is brought up in the revision phase. Okay?


----------



## Joakim3 (Aug 21, 2012)

Turrin said:


> *@Everyone* let's not get into a discussion of Itachi's "power level" until and if he is brought up in the revision phase. Okay?



Fine by me


----------



## Turrin (Aug 21, 2012)

Here's something for people to discuss while I'm tabulating the tier list. The characters names I am underlining as I go along are the ones that I feel we need to look at for revision. This is usually due to combination of me feeling they are too low and the fact that few people listed that character on their tier list. So tell me what you think so far.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 21, 2012)

What's the format going to be for the revision process?


----------



## Wizard (Aug 21, 2012)

If you ask me, I think Edo Madara > or = Rikudo Sennin.

I don't think Rikudo  had susanoo or the kyuubi as a summon.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Aug 21, 2012)

Thdyingbreed said:


> That was with knowledge though and I have my doubts Jirayia would be able to deal with Gedo Mazo or his strongest attacks such as CT or CST.
> 
> Nagato who the trio fought was implied to be above RM Naruto, Killer Bee, and Itachi individually who are viewed to be stronger then Jirayia.
> 
> I and a lot of people don't buy into the Prime Hiruzen hype so I choose to rank him based off of the feats he has.



Nagato thought Jiraiya can. 

Naruto conveniently forgot about Nagato's abilities, it was also a bad match-up since in KCM Naruto is basically made out of Kurama's chakra- which can be taken away by Nagato. Sage Mode is a superior counter since it empowers Naruto's jutsus, it gives Naruto prediction, Nagato can't see/sense the natural energy, and absorbing Naruto's chakra will kill him. 
I also don't see how Bee is superior to Jiraiya, Bee lost to Kisame whom was trying to lose and said he was not in Jiraiya's league. Itachi is also very debatable. 

I don't know why they don't, they're basing him off of his performance as a geezer back in pt.1 before the power inflation. 



jimbob631 said:


> Three pain bodies is half as strong as all 6 bodies and even weaker than Nagato not using the bodies.
> 
> Pain didn't use any of his abilities he just charged at him.  Naruto, who was confirmed as superior to Jiraiya lost to an exhausted Pain who just destroyed a village and that isn't even Nagato at his strongest.  You can argue Jiraiya should be in the same tier as the 6 paths, but not Nagato.



The two did fight, when Jiraiya emerged from his barrier the terrain was totally destroyed, when before it just had a hole from where Jiraiya was knocked through. Naruto was confirmed about as superior to Jiraiya as he was confirmed superior to Minato. Jiraiya could had beaten Nagato, Naruto lost. Naruto only completed what they could not, Rasengan and Sage Mode. Considering Sage Naruto lost to Pein, that's quite a comparison. 



Turrin said:


> I'm not going to delve too deeply into the issue at this point, because I believe it should be something brought up in revisions. However in my opinion it's not that people are placing Jiraiya incorrectly for the most part, but it's that they are overrating Itachi, which is to be expect considering the Itachi/Uchiha-Fandom is pretty much the largest and most outspoken fandom on the board. However with that said I think you equally overrate Jiraiya. Nether Itachi nor Jiriaya have proven themselves to be on par with any of the people that they are being placed with imo.
> 
> But again this is just the prelim list, so let's save this talk for later. You can VM/PM if you want to discuss my comment specifically.



Indeed, people are overrating him, placing him in the same tier as monsters like Hashirama and others. I would think that Jiraiya has proven his worth though and has his hype. I will talk about it more with you personally though.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> @Turin: Many people think Itachi > Jiraiya not just Itachi fans. Only a small minority (Jiraiya fans) think otherwise who still cling on to that baseless and outdated hype back in part 1 as their argument. I think people underrate Itachi when they place him in the same tier as Jiraiya.



No, many people do not think that at all. The board is actually quite split, with mostly team Uchiha fans supporting Itachi and team Senju fans supporting Jiraiya.


----------



## αce (Aug 21, 2012)

Actually I'm fairly sure a majority of the boards think Itachi is his superior. Although what anyone thinks doesn't really matter so that's no really an argument.


----------



## Kanki (Aug 21, 2012)

Haven't been on much...have I missed all this then?


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 21, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Bee lost to Kisame whom was trying to lose and said he was not in Jiraiya's league. Itachi is also very debatable.



Bee was protecting two individuals and couldn't enter his most powerful form.



UltimateDeadpool said:


> The two did fight, when Jiraiya emerged from his barrier the terrain was totally destroyed, when before it just had a hole from where Jiraiya was knocked through. Naruto was confirmed about as superior to Jiraiya as he was confirmed superior to Minato. Jiraiya could had beaten Nagato, Naruto lost. Naruto only completed what they could not, Rasengan and Sage Mode. Considering Sage Naruto lost to Pein, that's quite a comparison.



I forgot it was off paneled.  But my other points still stand, Naruto was confirmed as superior in more ways than just the scene with Pa saying he surpassed those who came before him.  He was confirmed to surpass Jiraiya at other points, its not even arguable, Naruto's Sage Mode has far greater hype and feats along with his rasengan.  Jiraiya lost badly to Nagato, and a weaker Nagato at that and its very likely Nagato didn't use his big scale techniques in their off panel fight.

Your argument is Nagato and Jiraiya should be in the same tier, why when we know Jiraiya lost to a weaker rendition of Nagato?  A Nagato that wasn't using things like Gedo Mazo and didn't have his body.  A healthy Nagato with mobility and Gedo Mazo is far above Jiraiya.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 21, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> What's the format going to be for the revision process?


Basically were going to bring up 3 characters at a time for discussion and than open up a re-vote on those characters which will last a 3 days.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 21, 2012)

I know mine is too late, but I felt like posting it even if it doesn't count. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



S+

Rikudo Sennin
100% Juubi
Younger Brother
Older Brother


S

Edo Madara


S-

Kabuto with Edo Tensei
Tobi with Rinnegan
BM Naruto
Prime Hiruzen
Hashirama
EMS Madara
Nagato


A+

Minato (possibly higher)
Kabuto without Edo Tensei
EMS Sasuke/KCM Naruto
Pein
Danzo
Pre Rinnegan Tobi
Healthy Itachi (assuming his stamina is much better and he has comparable skill to sick and Edo Itachi)
Hanzo
Tobirama


A

Sick Itachi
Killer Bee
SM Naruto/MS Sasuke
SM Jiraiya/Orochimaru with Edo Tensei
Old Hiruzen 
Muu/Nidaime Mizukage
Onoki
Killer Bee pre Samehada
Yondaime Raikage
Saindaime Raikage
Tsunade (for support reasons)


A-

Gaara
Sasori
Hebi Sasuke
Deidara
Tsunade (combat)
Kisame
Kakashi/Gai
Yagura
Mei
Kinkaku/Ginkaku
Kakuzu
Yondaime Kazekage


B+

Post Fuuton Naruto
Mifune
Konan
Darui
Chiyo
Atsuchi
Hidan
Part one Kakashi/Part one Kabuto
Zabuza
Asuma


B

Temari/Kankuro
Chouji
Chouza
Kimmimaro
Suigetsu
Juugo
Yamato
Kurenai
Shikamaru
Shikaku
Inoichi


B-

VoTe Naruto/VoTe Sasuke


C+

End of part one Gaara
Ino
Tayuya/Jirobou/Kidomaru/SakonUkon
End of part one Neji/Part one Lee
End of part one Temari/Kankuro


C

Chuunin Exams Naruto
Chuunin Exams Sasuke
Chuunin Exams Neji
Part one Shino
End of part one Shikamaru
End of part one Kiba


C-

Zaku
Dosu
Part one Hinata
Kin
Tenten


D+

Part one Sakura/Part one Ino


D

Naruto right out of the academy


D-

Academy students


I'll potentially add a few more next time and review a few things. 

__________________


----------



## Turrin (Aug 22, 2012)

So far Shizune wins the award for the greatest spread in terms of placements on tier lists. She was placed in B Tier and D- Tier lol. Though in the end her placement seems acceptable to me, funny how that works out. Also I think I'm done doing averages for today, all I can see are B's, C's, and D's, so I got to stop, but will hopefully get a similar amount done tomorrow.




Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> I know mine is too late, but I felt like posting it even if it doesn't count.


Don't worry you can always get in on the revision phase.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 22, 2012)

Joakim3 said:


> It's actually not flawed in a sense........ you can be a smartest man in the world, but If have a nuke and use it, your smarts go right out the window as you can't stop it
> 
> Yes Itachi is increadbly anaylitcal and has superb intelligence feats backed with his own hax, but when characters start using 23km Bijudama's, City+ oneshotting gravity attacks or a 2km tall chakra mech....... all his brains and intellect it mean nothing in the face of raw power
> 
> ...



Regardless Nagato has not been shown to use his CT or destrcutive abilities early, nor is Itachi non skilled enough to have a half decent plan against him. Nagato is not able to spam such abilities and even has a handicap in between.

Nagato has shown nothing to compare to the large scale of Hashi's forest/stamina, Madara's perfect susano, or multiple bjuu dama/BM Naruto's. The fact that Itachi is faster than all of the Pain body's and has counters to all of them, makes him atleast on his level. Edo Nagato could react to KCM Naruto and a sneak attack from Bee, yet could not reac to Itachi despite two clones being taken out before Itachi eventaully blitzed Nagato hitting him away and saving Bee, and NAruto all before Nagato's laser hit bee. This added to the fact that Itachi outsmarted Kabuto(I wont get into the fight, as it will end in numerous repost, and debates.)and is on his speed/reaction levels obviously pits him with the tier below Hashi/Madara.

-None of them have been shown to be as intelligent as the smart trio(Kakashi/Itachi/Minato minus the Nara clan)which thrive off their intelligence. Not to mention that Itachi has been the only person portrayed to be > Naruto in all his appearances.

-Would have soloed in their first encounter.

-Genjutsued him severly in the second fight.

-Fought on par with KCM Naruto in the 3rd fight, put down Cerberus with Ama, Ama'd Nagato, saved Bee and Naruto and sealed Nagato after figruing out CT. Taught Naruto lessons and proved the worth of Ninja intelligence, he also displayed the most powerful long range ninjutsu that only Madara knows in that fight.


----------



## Kanki (Aug 22, 2012)

Judging by people's lists, it seems this is basically a BD tier list. Shame.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Aug 22, 2012)

jimbob631 said:


> Bee was protecting two individuals and couldn't enter his most powerful form.
> 
> I forgot it was off paneled.  But my other points still stand, Naruto was confirmed as superior in more ways than just the scene with Pa saying he surpassed those who came before him.  He was confirmed to surpass Jiraiya at other points, its not even arguable, Naruto's Sage Mode has far greater hype and feats along with his rasengan.  Jiraiya lost badly to Nagato, and a weaker Nagato at that and its very likely Nagato didn't use his big scale techniques in their off panel fight.
> 
> Your argument is Nagato and Jiraiya should be in the same tier, why when we know Jiraiya lost to a weaker rendition of Nagato?  A Nagato that wasn't using things like Gedo Mazo and didn't have his body.  A healthy Nagato with mobility and Gedo Mazo is far above Jiraiya.



I'm not sure what he could do in full Hachibi form, he'd still be stuck in the dome and Kisame would still be too fast for him to hit. He could just cling to Hachibi's back and suck his chakra dry. Hachibi also seems to be made of jello. 

He wasn't confirmed to be superior to Jiraiya in any specific way, just that he had surpassed those that came before him, which included Minato. It's then revealed that Naruto is still weaker than Minato, and it's revealed that Naruto's still weaker than Jiraiya since Jiraiya could had won with the intel Naruto had as confirmed by Nagato. So no, Naruto surpassed those two in specific areas, not overall. 
SM Naruto doesn't really have better feats, both he and Jiraiya have been shown tossing boss summons and blitzing battlefields. The difference between them is largely aesthetic.
A one-armed base Jiraiya that wasn't trying to fight lost badly to Pein, an SM Jiraiya with one arm fought off all six Peins, and if Jiraiya knew Pein's secret he would had won.

Nagato had Gedo Mazo, the power of 7 Bijuus, and could had used their chakra to restore himself. Yet, despite everything at Nagato's disposal, he still thought Jiraiya could beat him.


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 22, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> I'm not sure what he could do in full Hachibi form, he'd still be stuck in the dome and Kisame would still be too fast for him to hit. He could just cling to Hachibi's back and suck his chakra dry. Hachibi also seems to be made of jello.



Did you see what the Hachibi did to the forest?   



UltimateDeadpool said:


> He wasn't confirmed to be superior to Jiraiya in any specific way,



Yes it was confirmed, Naruto mastered Sage Mode to a degree Jiraiya didn't.  



UltimateDeadpool said:


> since Jiraiya could had won with the intel Naruto had as confirmed by Nagato.



Its unclear if Nagato was talking about intel on his abilities or intel on where to find his crippled body.  



UltimateDeadpool said:


> SM Naruto doesn't really have better feats, both he and Jiraiya have been shown tossing boss summons and blitzing battlefields. The difference between them is largely aesthetic.



Naruto has a superior rasengan and sensing feats Jiraiya hasn't shown.  



UltimateDeadpool said:


> A one-armed base Jiraiya that wasn't trying to fight lost badly to Pein, an SM Jiraiya with one arm fought off all six Peins, and if Jiraiya knew Pein's secret he would had won.



Jiraiya lost the fight when he lost an arm, he isn't like the Raikage, he relies on ninjutsu.  



UltimateDeadpool said:


> Nagato had Gedo Mazo, the power of 7 Bijuus, and could had used their chakra to restore himself. Yet, despite everything at Nagato's disposal, he still thought Jiraiya could beat him.



Again its unclear what he was talking about by secret, for all you know he could've meant the secret of where to find him.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 22, 2012)

Please, wait for the separate discussion threads to debate characters' feats and placements. Let's try to keep this one as unclogged as possible.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 23, 2012)

Tried to make a list but it was too much of a hassle with these parameters, since Kabuto and Madara needed their own tiers because I think they're both far above the next strongest. I plan on being very active during revision however and boy does this list need revision. The underration of the sound four in this thread is especially bad. Sakon/Ukon and Jirobo below fucking Karin


----------



## Turrin (Aug 23, 2012)

Yondaime Raikage was the biggest bitch ever to place, can't you guys decided on one name for him lol.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 23, 2012)

Just noticed that the brackets aren't linear. This is going to warp the results. Doesn't a linear scale make much more sense?

Also, do you round to the closest tier or is a character with two S votes and one S- vote doomed to the S- tier because the average can never reach the value of the S bracket even though the average is closer to the S bracket?


----------



## Turrin (Aug 23, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Just noticed that the brackets aren't linear. This is going to warp the results. Doesn't a linear scale make much more sense?
> 
> Also, do you round to the closest tier or is a character with two S votes and one S- vote doomed to the S- tier because the average can never reach the value of the S bracket even though the average is closer to the S bracket?


What do you mean by linear? Also the results seem fine to me so far. Considering I have ranked tons of characters at this point and have in comparison only a few characters that I have problems with the placements so far. Not sure if everyone feels the same way as I do, maybe more people have more problems with the placements than the ones I underlined, but I wouldn't think it's that many more problems.

The example you gave for the S + S + S- is one where it's very close to be able to go ether way, in that particular instance I'd round down if it's lower than .5 and round up if it's .5 or above. So that particular example would be S- tier, but just barely. I just figure if a character is that close it will be brought up in revision anyway if people have problems with the placement, but usually such an example does not occur.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 23, 2012)

Turrin said:


> What do you mean by linear? Also the results seem fine to me so far. Considering I have ranked tons of characters at this point and have in comparison only a few characters that I have problems with the placements so far. Not sure if everyone feels the same way as I do, maybe more people have more problems with the placements than the ones I underlined, but I wouldn't think it's that many more problems.


A linear scale has equal step sizes. For example:

*Linear scale*
S = 105
S- = 100
A+ = 95
A = 90​
Right now you have S- and A+ really close to one another. They barely make a difference.

*Current nonlinear scale*
S = 105
S- = 100
A+ = 99
A = 95​
*An example of how the current scale warps the average*
A character has 8 S-, 1 A+ and 1 A votes. 

*Current nonlinear scale*
Thus (8*100+1*99+1*95)/10 = 99.4; meaning the character gets put in the A+ tier with the current scaling.

*Linear scale*
Thus (8*100+1*95+1*90)/10 = 98.5; now 98.5 is much closer to the S bracket than to the A bracket (1.5 difference vs 3.5), so the character gets rated in the S- tier where the overwhelming majority indeed rates him/her.​
The current scale has effective created a larger weight downward for the current character which means we don't actually obtain a true average.



Turrin said:


> The example you gave for the S + S + S- is one where it's very close to be able to go ether way, in that particular instance I'd round down if it's lower than .5 and round up if it's .5 or above. So that particular example would be S- tier, but just barely. I just figure if a character is that close it will be brought up in revision anyway if people have problems with the placement, but usually such an example does not occur.


Since the average is (2*105+1*100)/3 = 103.33, you should round to the closest. To have two S's and one S- than the average should be S. If you don't, then no matter how many S's a character get, if there's just one S- than he's eternally doomed to the lower rank, which means we are not getting the average view of the Library. So you shouldn't round down, but round to the closest. That's the true average.




The problem can be fixed depending on how phase III works.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 23, 2012)

@Sniffers

The way you suggest works as well, but people knew how I was going to do it going into this and i've been working on this shit for 3 days now, so your very late in the process to start discussing this. All the characters are subject to same curve so it's more than fair. Furthermore the examples that your giving pretty much never happened, because after doing this (what like 80 times now), I have never encountered any character whoses had 9 votes for X tier 1 for Y tier and 1 for Z tier, I can't even recall any specific time that was the case (lol how I wish I got votes that were that easy to tabulate LOLOLOL). If there are people voting bellow the majority you better believe there are more people voting way above the majority. So it's more like just to use your example( 8*100+1*99+1*95 +110*3) /10 = 101.8 or some shit like that. 

Anyway I'm not starting over again from scratch, so this is pointless, I've done it a certain way thus far and I'm not going to change it at this point. This is just a prelim list anyway and we can deal with any funky placements in revisions, but again I haven't seen that many that seem funky to me, have you?


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 23, 2012)

I doubt people kept the weird nonlinear scaling in mind. I only just noticed too, which is why I only said it just now.

Everyone is subject to same curve, but that doesn't make it fair, it simply means all of them are warped to greater or lesser degree.

If something like in the example didn't happen than the damage shouldn't be too great. Perhaps that's the reason why the list still turned out pretty well.

I'd say just carry on considering the amount of work it takes to change. I agree it turned out pretty good anyway, and phase III can indeed fix things.


PS: I just wished to point out the dangers of the current scaling for possible future voting or if changing it was easy (if you had worked with a spreadsheet or something).


----------



## Turrin (Aug 23, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> I doubt people kept the weird nonlinear scaling in mind. I only just noticed too, which is why I only said it just now.
> 
> Everyone is subject to same curve, but that doesn't make it fair, it simply means all of them are warped to greater or lesser degree.
> 
> ...


God dam I wish you would have posted this a while ago, I forgot all about spread sheets, would have made this so much easier LOL. Nah I did all the math myself with just the most basic calculator to double check shit. And honestly I don't think your example ever happened, because my god is Naruto-fan indecisive with the placement of characters. I've seen spreads as wide as a character being given D+ and that same character being given A-A+ (think that was Zetsu). Though with that said it may have happened once and I just don't remember, I mean at this point i'm going out of my mind with all of these numbers + letters....all letters and numbers makes Turrin a dull boy.....


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 23, 2012)

Haha, I'm just glad I don't have to do all of the counting. Massive kudos for that btw. ;-)


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 23, 2012)

I find myself agreeing with most of the top half but disagreeing with a lot in the bottom half.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 23, 2012)

Alright I finally finished the Prelim list, check it out, see what you think, so and so forth.

I underlined the characters that I personally think we should discuss first for revision. However as people know the rules we decided on is that we'll only discuss three characters at a time and the 3 characters I think we should discuss first and foremost are Gin/Kin, Sakon/Ukon, and Konan.

The reason why I think these three are important to discuss, is because i'm not sure we we're clear about how people should rate these characters back when people were placing them on their tier list.

For Sakon/Ukon and Gin/Kin we never stated whether we we're counting  each pair as one entity or if we're counting Ukon independently of Sakon and Gin interdependently of Kin. If we're counting them  independently I'm personally fine with Gin & Kin's placement, but if were counting them as 1 entity I feel these guys should probably be in A tier. If were counting Sakon & Ukon independently I still feel they should be moved up, but they should be moved even more significantly if counted as a single entity. 

My personal belief is that we should count them independently, but I can see arguments for and against this, so I'd like to here your thoughts.

When it comes to Konan, I think it was never made clear whether or not people were rating her based on her having Paper Ocean or her not having Paper Ocean. I think she's too high if she doesn't have Paper Ocean and she is too low if she does in-fact have Paper Ocean, which makes sense since again I think some people were counting it and others weren't, landing her smack in the middle. So I think we ether need to decided if were going to count Paper Ocean, we're not going to count it, or if were going to split Konan up into 2 characters 1 with Paper Ocean and 1 w/o it.

Personally I say we just don't count Paper Ocean for the sake of simplicity and move her down a tier. But again I want to hear peoples thoughts.

Edit: And Yeah I'm sure we'll be discussing Jiriaya, Itachi, and whatever, but let's try and leave that for last.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 23, 2012)

Turrin said:


> For Sakon/Ukon and Gin/Kin we never stated whether we we're counting  each pair as one entity or if we're counting Ukon independently of Sakon and Gin interdependently of Kin. If we're counting them  independently I'm personally fine with Gin & Kin's placement, but if were counting them as 1 entity I feel these guys should probably be in A tier. If were counting Sakon & Ukon independently I still feel they should be moved up, but they should be moved even more significantly if counted as a single entity.
> 
> My personal belief is that we should count them independently, but I can see arguments for and against this, so I'd like to here your thoughts.


We should count Sakon/Ukon together as one lives inside the other and their abilities revolve around that. Kinkaku and Ginkaku may need to be placed together just because whose to decide who gets what weapons, plus said weapons wouldn't be of much use by themselves with the exception of Bashosen. The rope would be pretty useful by itself too with its stunning property.




> Personally I say we just don't count Paper Ocean for the sake of simplicity and move her down a tier. But again I want to hear peoples thoughts.


Paper Ocean is confined to a specific area, its not something she can use anywhere so I don't count it as part of her overall power. I don't think we should make a rule about it and leave it open to the individual to decide.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 23, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> We should count Sakon/Ukon together as one lives inside the other and their abilities revolve around that. Kinkaku and Ginkaku may need to be placed together just because whose to decide who gets what weapons, plus said weapons wouldn't be of much use by themselves with the exception of Bashosen. The rope would be pretty useful by itself too with its stunning property.


I can see your points, but there is always the counter point of is it fair to the other characters to count 2 shinobi as 1.



> Paper Ocean is confined to a specific area, its not something she can use anywhere so I don't count it as part of her overall power. I don't think we should make a rule about it and leave it open to the individual to decide.


The problem with leaving it up to interpretation is that we end up with Konan on A- Tier and can't really see her comparing with any of those shinobi, unless specific conditions are met which allow for Paper Ocean in which case she'd pretty easily defeat those shinobi.


----------



## Seph (Aug 23, 2012)

Minato an entire tier above Itachi? 

This tier list has no hope.


----------



## Namikaze Minato (Aug 23, 2012)

Seph said:


> Minato an entire tier above Itachi?
> 
> *This tier list has no hope*.



then dont participate in it, and let the people who want to contribute work.


----------



## Vice (Aug 23, 2012)

Namikaze Minato said:


> then dont participate in it, and let the people who want to contribute work.



This. Thank you.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 23, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I can see your points, but there is always the counter point of is it fair to the other characters to count 2 shinobi as 1.


I can see that point being valid with Kinkaku/Ginkaku but Sakon/Ukon are almost for all intents and purposes one being. 




> The problem with leaving it up to interpretation is that we end up with Konan on A- Tier and can't really see her comparing with any of those shinobi, unless specific conditions are met which allow for Paper Ocean in which case she'd pretty easily defeat those shinobi.


We just have to have faith that the majority have some sense and don't count it.


----------



## Seph (Aug 23, 2012)

Honestly it seems like Turrin's personal opinions are shaping the tier list.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 23, 2012)

Placing Rikudo in a tier by himself is near pointless, since there have been those to reach "rikudo like status" and then some characters who can beat said characters. 

S+ should be:
Rikudo
Riinengan Madara
Rinnengan Tobi
BM Naruto
Hashirama/ EMS Madara
Kabuto(w ET)

S would then be:
Nagato
Hiruzen (Prime)
Minato/Itachi
SM Kabuto
Tobi (Pre Rinnegan)
EMS Sasuke
Killer Bee
Naruto (Pre-BM)
Pain Rikudo


S-
White Fang
Hanzo (Prime)
Nidaime Mizukage
Sandaime Raikage
Kakashi
Tobirama 
Mū
Yondaime Raikage
Orochimaru 
Jiraiya
Onoki 
Might Gai
Kisame
Naruto (Pre-KCM)
Danzo 
Sasuke (MS)
Uchiha Shisui

A+
Konan 
Kinkaku/Ginkaku
Kakuzu 
Hebi Sasuke
Deidara
Yondaime Kazekage
Sandaime Kazekage
Mei Terumei
Sasori
Tsunade
Gaara
Hiruzen (old)

This is all I care to correct so far I will do more later, but my major changes were:
-Adding Itachi to Minato's level. It is near impossible to deny that these two young prodigies don't present a difficult debate. Both were viable threats to tobi, and even though they are on different sides of the Curse of Hatred spectrums they are similar. Both risked their lives for their villages, one in fame, the other in the shadows. They are also very intelligent and insightful ninja's rivaled only by the Nara Clan and Kakashi.

-Might Gai and Kakahsi are near equals they both belong in S-.

-Hashirama is on the tier with BM Naruto and Rinnegan Tobi, the amount of chakra he has combined with bjuu control, forest abilities granting offense and defense, and durable clones, all pit him up their. I don't know how many people in the manga can fight someone on their tier level in addition to a bjuu summon(the strongest).

-Last but not least it is important to know why I believe S+ tier should include other characters. Having him in a tier all to himself severely handicaps others range. We know pretty much everyone pales in front of him, so why not just have him lead the list instead of transcending it.
I believe S(both + & -)ninja's are ninja's that are highly capable of causing harm to almost any ninja or group of ninja's below their tier. S ninja's have to have a certain danger level about them to be put into such a category, kind of like the gap that seperates an A Rank jutsu and a S Rank jutsu. I'll elaborate after some discussion, and finish my list of the Pre List


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 23, 2012)

Seph said:


> Honestly it seems like Turrin's personal opinions are shaping the tier list.


The revision phase has barely even started yet so I don't see how that is.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 23, 2012)

*@Everyone*

Can we please avoid the Itachi/Minato/Jiraiya shit until the very end, because I don't want to have to go through 20 pages of BS to find posts that actually have to do with the revision process. And yeah talking about characters like EMS Itachi who didn't even exist seems pretty off topic to me. I really don't want to have to ask a Mod to delete off bunch of off topic posts, so take that elsewhere. 

I was actually considering not posting Itachi's, Minato's, or Jiraiya's placement to at the end of the revision process to avoid this BS, but I figure people could contain themselves. Now i'm starting to regret not doing that.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I can see that point being valid with Kinkaku/Ginkaku but Sakon/Ukon are almost for all intents and purposes one being.


They are given different stats in the DB though, so the author seems to consider them individual entities. Now i'm not saying it's wrong to count them as a single entity just for the sake of ease, i'm just playing devil's advocate here.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> We just have to have faith that the majority have some sense and don't count it.


Unless you think she should be place on A- tier that doesn't seem to be the case thus far. 

@Dr. White

The changes you suggest is essentially transforming the current tier list into the same as your own, which is not going to happen. So it's more constructive to work within the confines of the current tier list we all formed together rather than trying to complete change the tiers around, since I can assure you that if everyone just tried to change the tier list to be the same as their own nothing would get accomplished, since people have very different opinions on characters. 



Seph said:


> Honestly it seems like Turrin's personal opinions are shaping the tier list.


All I had was 1 vote just like everyone else and it's pretty clear if you compare my tier list to the Pre-lim list that it is hardly shaped by my personal opinions. So ether stop being buthurt about Minato being 1 tier above Itachi and actually participate constructively or you can get out.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 23, 2012)

I still don't see the point in having Rikudo there in a tier by himself despite people in the manga having come close to his hyped level. I can give you countless examples if you like. You act like I am trying to run the show and be the boss. I am simply showing you canon things that can IMO improve the list. Which is what the thread is about. Do you not want the Tier list to be accurate? I don't see why some characters have to suffer being in the A list, just because Rikudo(who is completely irrelevant to most hypothetical battle matchups, and manga matchups)has to have his own tier. 

The changes I made are just my opinions being thrown out there. Regardless they are backed in canon, you cannot argue that I am just trying to make my favorite characters look stronger, I don't find it fair how you simply brush me aside and claim in trying to make everything how I want it, without even rebutting or taking a look at the logic provided. You seem very defensive for some reason, and it is suspicious. All I want is for this Tier to be accurately discussed so that much illogical, and bias majority placements won't be made without consideration.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Aug 23, 2012)

No one deserves to be on the same tier as the Rikudo Sennin no one has accomplished feats on his level he *sealed the Juubi* and *created the moon* no one has feats anywhere near that level.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 23, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> I still don't see the point in having Rikudo there in a tier by himself despite people in the manga having come close to his hyped level.


The thing is roughly 85% of people participating in this disagree with this assertion and I am also one of them. I don't see anyone comparing to Rikudo hype of defeating Juubi and creating the moon itself, that's just to insane for any current character to compare. 



> You act like I am trying to run the show and be the boss. I am simply showing you canon things that can IMO improve the list. Which is what the thread is about. Do you not want the Tier list to be accurate? I don't see why some characters have to suffer being in the A list, just because Rikudo(who is completely irrelevant to most hypothetical battle matchups, and manga matchups)has to have his own tier.


Nah I don't believe your trying to run the show, I'm just trying to help you be more effective in participating with the construction of the tier list. 

The reason Rikudo has his own tier is because the overwhelming majority believed it appropriate for him to have his own tier. Also I feel like saying a character is suffering because he is A-tier is kind of missing the point. The tiers are defined by the characters placed on them not the other way around.



> The changes I made are just my opinions being thrown out there. Regardless they are backed in canon, you cannot argue that I am just trying to make my favorite characters look stronger, I don't find it fair how you simply brush me aside and claim in trying to make everything how I want it, without even rebutting or taking a look at the logic provided. You seem very defensive for some reason, and it is suspicious. All I want is for this Tier to be accurately discussed so that much illogical, and bias majority placements won't be made without consideration.


Hold you horses buddy, when did I say anything like your trying to make your favorite character look stronger? Putting words in my mouth seems like you doth protest too much, methinks. 

Also didn't brush you aside, I clearly wrote a paragraph response to you, but the fact of the matter is what you were doing isn't what the revision process is about. In the revision process we bring up 3 characters at a time to change the placement of, not swapping entire tiers and what not. So bring up 3 characters at first you want to see a re-vote cast for and if people agree than cool beans.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 23, 2012)

*IMPORTANT!*

Just so everyone knows were starting the revision process and the way that works is you bring up the first 3 characters that you think we should revote on, give your reasoning and if enough people agree than we'll assign a period of time where we revote on those characters. For example see this post of mine where I bring up the first 3 characters that I think we should revote on:


What you should not do is just debate back and forth about whether the tier list is right or wrong or post more than 3 changes at one time that you will make. 

Again try to keep in mind that this is a privilege the mods are giving us, if things get out of hand i'm sure they won't hesitate to shut this whole thing down, than we got no tier lists.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 23, 2012)

I say we start by voting on Kisame, Bee and Gai. They are characters that don't have extremely huge fanbases, and I feel can be argued objectively, and it would be a good starting point to start comparing with other top tiers.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 23, 2012)

Turrin said:


> They are given different stats in the DB though, so the author seems to consider them individual entities. Now i'm not saying it's wrong to count them as a single entity just for the sake of ease, i'm just playing devil's advocate here.


Putting them individually would keep us from properly ranking either of them, as their abilities are based around the two of them being in one conjoined body. Listing them separately to me would be like listing Kiba and Akamaru separately, it just doesn't work. To go with that, Kiba and Akamaru's tag team was directly compared in the manga to Sakon/Ukon's. 




> Unless you think she should be place on A- tier that doesn't seem to be the case thus far.


I think she should be on the tier below it(B+) but I can live with her being on the tier above. Its not a gross overestimation of her abilities.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 23, 2012)

I think we should start with Yondaime Kazekage, Asuma, and Killer Bee. 

I'm not trying to pick on Yondaime Kazekage, but many consider him to be the weakest Kage we have seen so far, and he could set the bar on what constitutes Kage Level. 

Asuma is a strong, fairly balanced Jounin who very few would consider Kage level and nobody would consider Chuunin level. He would give a good set point on what a strong Jounin is. Anyone around Asuma's level is not quite Kage level but certainly above Chuunin.

Killer Bee is probably one of the weakest character who I believe most consider to be stronger than any of the current Kages individually. I think he could set the bar for anyone who is stronger than most Kages.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 23, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Putting them individually would keep us from properly ranking either of them, as their abilities are based around the two of them being in one conjoined body. Listing them separately to me would be like listing Kiba and Akamaru separately, it just doesn't work. To go with that, Kiba and Akamaru's tag team was directly compared in the manga to Sakon/Ukon's.
> .


I can agree with this, but I take you still agree we should put them up for a revote.



> I think she should be on the tier below it(B+) but I can live with her being on the tier above. Its not a gross overestimation of her abilities


Here we differ I think it's a gross overestimation of her abilities if we don't count paper ocean. Granted I can see an argument made that she's weaker w/o it and stronger with it so putting her in the middle is the right placements. The question is do people agree with this mind-set.



Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> I think we should start with Yondaime Kazekage, Asuma, and Killer Bee.
> 
> I'm not trying to pick on Yondaime Kazekage, but many consider him to be the weakest Kage we have seen so far, and he could set the bar on what constitutes Kage Level.
> 
> ...



Sure but do you agree with their current placements, because personally I don't have a problem with them (Killer B could be moved down a Tier imo, but I don't consider it necessarily an overestimation to leave him as is ether) and don't really see a need to revise them. Also we kind of already agreed to forgo the whole mind-set of this character is Kage Class, this one Jonin, etc... hence why we used the S+-D- system instead of ranking them along the lines of Kage, Jonin, etc... so that would kind of defeat the purpose of the current tiers. Personally I like the idea much better that the tiers are defined by the characters placed on them, not the other way around.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 23, 2012)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> I think we should start with Yondaime Kazekage, Asuma, and Killer Bee.
> 
> I'm not trying to pick on Yondaime Kazekage, but many consider him to be the weakest Kage we have seen so far, and he could set the bar on what constitutes Kage Level.
> 
> ...



I would constitute Asuma as an elite jounin. He is in between Jounin and Kage. He could beat most jounin's and tussle with some Kage opponents(like Kisame)but I think the perfect precident for Jounin would be current Lee and Neji level. Chunin level would constitute the level that Sakura, Ino, and the lower Konoha 11 are on.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 23, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I can agree with this, but I take you still agree we should put them up for a revote.


I think all of the sound 5 have been grossly underestimated, so yes.



> Here we differ I think it's a gross overestimation of her abilities if we don't count paper ocean. Granted I can see an argument made that she's weaker w/o it and stronger with it so putting her in the middle is the right placements. The question is do people agree with this mind-set.


So you do not believe her to be on the level of people like Darui, Mifune and Chiyo? I think she could possibly beat all three of them, as her Shikigami no Mai makes her one of the hardest characters in the manga to damage and against opponents without high durability/regen, she can be pretty dangerous offensively when mixing in exploding tags with her paper jutsu. This list includes hype and Madara praised her, she also has the general hype of being an Akatsuki member which should at least put her even with Hidan in the area of hype.

I think her showing against Jiraiya has clouded your judgement of her. He had knowledge of her ability and a strong counter in oil, not many people can deal with her near intangibility when using Shikigami no Mai as easily as he did.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 23, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I think all of the sound 5 have been grossly underestimated, so yes.


How about Gin/Kin? And to me Jirobo and Sakon/Ukon were underestimated, but I'd have to take a second look at the placements of the others. Just checked them out I'm okay with the placements of the others. 



> So you do not believe her to be on the level of people like Darui, Mifune and Chiyo? I think she could possibly beat all three of them, as her Shikigami no Mai makes her one of the hardest characters in the manga to damage and against opponents without high durability/regen, she can be pretty dangerous offensively when mixing in exploding tags with her paper jutsu. This list includes hype and Madara praised her, she also has the general hype of being an Akatsuki member which should at least put her even with Hidan in the area of hype.


No I agree with you there, B+ would be totally fine with me. I think what's tricky is her current placement on A- Tier. Hence why I think we should revote and hopefully get her a placement on B+ tier if everyone agrees.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 23, 2012)

Wow is Konohamaru getting underrated. Below Rin? Really?


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 23, 2012)

Turrin said:


> How about Gin/Kin? And to me Jirobo and Sakon/Ukon were underestimated, but I'd have to take a second look at the placements of the others. Just checked them out I'm okay with the placements of the others.


I believe Kimimaro to be capable of defeating people two levels above him by feats(Chiyo, Mifune, Darui) and that he'd defeat most everyone on his current tier with mid-difficulty at most(excluding those who are also too lowly placed like Hiashi). His hype also puts him above those in his tier. The whole C tier needs reworking as people like Hinata, Atsui and Karui are below the sound 4 and Inoichi, Genma, Hayate  Aoba, Baki deserve to be at least one tier above where they are, if not two.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Aug 23, 2012)

Do the people we discuss have to be in the same tier or can it be anyone?


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 23, 2012)

Naruto is two whole tiers above Tobi and a tier above Minato, it should be clear this is a problem.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 23, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> I would constitute Asuma as an elite jounin. He is in between Jounin and Kage. He could beat most jounin's and tussle with some Kage opponents(like Kisame)but I think the perfect precident for Jounin would be current Lee and Neji level. Chunin level would constitute the level that Sakura, Ino, and the lower Konoha 11 are on.



Well, strong Jounin and elite Jounin could be seen as interchangable, IMO.


----------



## Rama (Aug 23, 2012)

Are the 3 characters to be discussed chosen already?


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Aug 23, 2012)

Well for me I have 3 people i want to discuss currently. (Kakashi, Gai, Killer Bee) 

Also Prime Hiruzen is too high he's on on the same level as Orochimaru/Tsunade/Danzo.


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 23, 2012)

Where it he agragated tier list? It still has never been posted.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Aug 23, 2012)

It's on the first page he edited it in the OP.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 23, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I believe Kimimaro to be capable of defeating people two levels above him by feats(Chiyo, Mifune, Darui) and that he'd defeat most everyone on his current tier with mid-difficulty at most(excluding those who are also too lowly placed like Hiashi). His hype also puts him above those in his tier. The whole C tier needs reworking as people like Hinata, Atsui and Karui are below the sound 4 and Inoichi, Genma, Hayate  Aoba, Baki deserve to be at least one tier above where they are, if not two.


I kinda of disagree with this, it seems to me a-lot of people on the B- tier have a chance to beat and I don't think his odds of winning against anyone in B tier let alone people in B+ tier unless he's a very poor match up for them is all that good. We'll see if enough people agree he needs rework than I'm down tho. I do think C-tier needs some work though.



Rama said:


> Are the 3 characters to be discussed chosen already?


No so far the characters getting the most discussion are Gin/Kin, Konan, and some of the Sound 5 members tho. What do you think of any of those for the first 3?




Thdyingbreed said:


> Do the people we discuss have to be in the same tier or can it be anyone?


You can bring up any three characters you think need a revote, list your reasoning and see if people agree or disagree.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 24, 2012)

Let's just pick characters at random to give revision to. 

Let's not turn this into "Oh wow, the initial tier list was created, let me take a loo- what is this? No, I will not have this! I demand a re vote so I can try to influence other people to believe what I believe. I shall *not* have people saying Kakuzu isn't B+ tier" 

It needs to be completely benign. I don't want anyone's stink on this; no fandom bullshit.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 24, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Let's just pick characters at random to give revision to.
> 
> Let's not turn this into "Oh wow, the initial tier list was created, let me take a loo- what is this? No, I will not have this! I demand a re vote so I can try to influence other people to believe what I believe. I shall *not* have people saying Kakuzu isn't B+ tier"
> 
> It needs to be completely benign. I don't want anyone's stink on this; no fandom bullshit.


As well, they probably shouldn't be characters that are currently fighting. New chapters could disrupt work being done.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 24, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Let's just pick characters at random to give revision to.
> 
> Let's not turn this into "Oh wow, the initial tier list was created, let me take a loo- what is this? No, I will not have this! I demand a re vote so I can try to influence other people to believe what I believe. I shall *not* have people saying Kakuzu isn't B+ tier"
> 
> It needs to be completely benign. I don't want anyone's stink on this; no fandom bullshit.


The problem with randomizing is that I don't think that many characters on the list are in need of revision and I know at least a few posters seem to agree. So let's say we threw all the characters into a random gen, chance are we will get 3 a great deal (if not nearly all but 1 to 2 posters) don't mind the placement off. That makes a for a very boring 3 days of discussion and revoting to arrive at the same conclusion. Than after that's over we do it again and chances are we end up with the same thing yet again. Not to mention it renders the Pre-lim list pointless, since the whole point of it was to try and get some characters that don't need revision out of the way. 

To me it makes more sense to ask people what characters they think need revision than some time tomorrow I'll compile a list of them and put it to a vote as to which 3 of them we should discuss first or if at all. That way we can ensure we won't get stuck with boring characters that people (or the vast majority) already agrees on.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 24, 2012)

In the KC, we usually try to have it so that several people need to agree that a characters placement on the tier list needs to be reevaluated before a thread is made. The same can be done here, with limitations as to how often a characters placement can be discussed.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 24, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> In the KC, we usually try to have it so that several people need to agree that a characters placement on the tier list needs to be reevaluated before a thread is made. The same can be done here, with limitations as to how often a characters placement can be discussed.



Yeah this is pretty much what I'm thinking. Hence the vote on what 3 characters to discuss first out of the ones that posters suggest. As for a limit, I think we'll just have to play that by year and see if there characters really keep being brought up and voted on for more than once for a placement.


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 24, 2012)

I think Kin/Gin should be moved down 1. Their near powerless if the other has knowledge. 
Konoan is fine where she is.

On a first look I only really see 1 really bad placement.


----------



## Samehada (Aug 24, 2012)

Wait...I am actually content with this list...


----------



## Rama (Aug 24, 2012)

Turrin said:


> No so far the characters getting the most discussion are Gin/Kin, Konan, and some of the Sound 5 members tho. What do you think of any of those for the first 3?



I wanted to discuss BM Naruto but that can wait, im fine with those 3 or 4 up first.  I believe that a good idea is that we start with those 3 or 4 and in the time we take to discuss them, members can pm you other characters they want to discuss(with reason why they want them moved) in the future and ones the current discussion is over you put up the top 3 most requested characters up for discussion, then is rinse and repeat until is over.


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 24, 2012)

I think Tsunade is a tier higher than she should be. She looses to everyone on that tier.


----------



## Namikaze Minato (Aug 24, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> I think Tsunade is a tier higher than she should be. She looses to everyone on that tier.



I agree with this.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 24, 2012)

So since I have seen quite a few members express interest in these characters I think we're going to discuss Konan, Gin/Kin, and Sakon/Ukon first. Than we'll re-vote on them. 

Also while that is going on, please PM me the next three characters you guys want to discuss. That way by the time we get done discussing/revoting on these 3 characters I'll be ready to put up 3 other characters you guys want to discuss.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 24, 2012)

First, Might Guy definitely needs to be discussed. The manga always portrayed Kakashi and Gai as equal with Kakashi being slightly stronger. The whole tier list does not work for me when they are placed in different tier. Remember this tier list is made up of hype, character portrayal and feats. 

Same with Sannin, if you go by hype and character portroyal, all three should be equal, but if you include feats than Tsunade is atleast two tiers below Orochimaru and Jiraiya.


----------



## Santoryu (Aug 24, 2012)

Jup, Gai should be in the same tier as Kakashi for sure.

And to be honest, both Kakashi and Gai are superior to the Sannin/current Kages at this point; keep in mind Gai still has the final gate in reserve.


----------



## Immortal (Aug 24, 2012)

Kin/Gin are too high. The A, A- and B+ tiers all look a little jumbled to me, I think that's where the most debate will unfold. 

Konan can stay there I believe, as others will rise and fall around her I think she can stay in that tier. 

Idk why Sakon/Ukon is the third person to talk about hahaha but the entire Sound Four sans Jirobo should be on the C- tier.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2012)

I think the lower characters can be discussed later when more powerful characters have been. Gai, needs to be discussed, Itachi, Minato, and also Mifune needs to be a tier higher.


----------



## Ghost (Aug 24, 2012)

Minato isn't a tier above the likes of Itachi, Pre-BM Naruto and the Pain Rikudo. And he isn't on the level of the likes of Sasuke and Nagato.

Tsunade is fine. There are two weaker characters than her on the same tier.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2012)

Shirosaki said:


> Minato isn't a tier above the likes of Itachi, Pre-BM Naruto and the Pain Rikudo. And he isn't on the level of the likes of Sasuke and Nagato.
> 
> Tsunade is fine. There are two weaker characters than her on the same tier.



I didn't wanna be the first one to say it, but now that someones else has I feel our first three characters for discussion should be Gai, Itachi and Minato. I would be ready to write a ride or die objective criteria comparison.

Also quickly about Mifune
He should be on Prime Hanzo's tier, as Hanzo admitted that Mifune was a very powerful warrior and saw so much potential and will that he spared his life and left fate to be the ultimate judge. The fact that Mifune then came back and beat Hanzo showed their progression, and relevance. Mifune is also pretty much the Hokage of Iron, and not many ninja have the speed/reactions to be in a prolonged fight with him and not be able to use ninjutsu. Look what happened to MS Sasuke vs a good Swordsman, he got obliterated. I don't see B's swordsmanship being better than Mifune's either. His speed at close -mid range is amazingly deadly.

-I think alot of people rate Mifune low because of his flashback battle losing to Hanzo. What people need to keep in mind is that:
-Hanzo was able to best the 3 sannin and let them live, he was held in regards as a top tier ninja. Through his flashback it was heavily implied that sometime after he fought the Sanin/Mifune he became hopless and lost some skill. But what people dont realize is that *swordsmanship battles don't last long, the Hanzo Mifune fight was a High diff fight for both fighters, had Hanzo been a second slower he would have died. The respect between very close warriors was very evident in that flashback.*


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 24, 2012)

Kin and Gin should be considered separate imo because we've never seen them fight in there most powerful form together.  I think there placement is fine, a tier above Darui sounds about right.  

I also agree with Konan's placement, she could be dropped one spot but I feel as if Kishimoto made the majority of akatsuki members fairly equal so I think her placement makes sense.  Obviously something went wrong with Sakon/Ukon, they should be considered as one entity imo because they battle together, its part of the jutsu.  

They should be raised to the C tier with the rest of the Sound 4.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2012)

jimbob631 said:


> Kin and Gin should be considered separate imo because we've never seen them fight in there most powerful form together.  I think there placement is fine, a tier above Darui sounds about right.
> 
> I also agree with Konan's placement, she could be dropped one spot but I feel as if Kishimoto made the majority of akatsuki members fairly equal so I think her placement makes sense.  Obviously something went wrong with Sakon/Ukon, they should be considered as one entity imo because they battle together, its part of the jutsu.
> 
> They should be raised to the C tier with the rest of the Sound 4.



If it has been decided that these three are our first 3 then I agree with this. Konan needs prep to use her maxium 5 minute explosion technique, and should be placed on Kakazu level. Gin/Kin Bro's are fine a tier above Darui, Imo, but the fact that Kin couldbecome part Kyuubi and rampage on the battlefield may raise some brows.


----------



## Jiraiya4Life (Aug 24, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> I didn't wanna be the first one to say it, but now that someones else has I feel our first three characters for discussion should be Gai, Itachi and Minato. I would be ready to write a ride or die objective criteria comparison.



I agree with this, Itachi and Minato definitely need to be discussed!
-However, I would wait for the current Tobi Vs Naruto, Gai, Kakashi, and Bee battle to end before touching upon Bushy Brows Sensei, just in case he does something noteworthy...


*Spoiler*: __ 



And Jiraiya should be discussed sometime in the future too...


----------



## Seph (Aug 24, 2012)

Let's just keep Itachi and Minato on the same line. Itachi / Minato. That will avoid a lot of shitstorms.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2012)

Neither Itachi or Minato should be in tier with Hashirama, and Hashirama does not deserve S-. Which is why bumping top top tiers into the S+ category and making the S category would go over much better.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 24, 2012)

Like many others, I don't like Minato and Itachi's placement. They both should be below Hashirama and Madara.

This whole tier is a mess. 



> *
> White Fang
> Hanzo (Prime)
> Nidaime Mizukage
> ...



I think Jiraiya is the weakest in this tier, Orochimaru is only there because he is extremely hard to kill. Danzo, MS Sasuke, Onoki, Muu, Raikage, Mizukage are all a tier powerful than Jiraiya. 

Jiraiya should drop down a level and join the likes of Kisame and Deidara. He will fit in that tier better, atleast than he won't be outclassed.

Right now though, Minato, Itachi and Might Gai needs to be up for discussion.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Like many others, I don't like Minato and Itachi's placement. They both should be below Hashirama and Madara.
> 
> This whole tier is a mess.
> 
> ...



I disagree, Jiraiya should be a tier below Itachi and Minato. Pt.1 Kisame was dead on scared of him and had no counters to Frog Stomach. Itachi on the other hand had motives b saying him and Jman would be a stalemate(he didn't want to harm fellow konoha ninja, but couldn't blow his cover, also didn't want konoha to become a damage zone). Jman with usmmons and sage mode is an opponent very deadly.

I agree with everything else though I think we should start with
Minato, Itachi, and Gai
then
Jiriaya, Kisame, and Killer B


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2012)

I also have a proposition I would like to get votes on to see if others agree or not.

*Proposition*: As previously posted by myself I think that other should be moved in to Rikudo Sennin's Tier.

*Reasoning:* There are a couple points I will bullet ad try to make short.
-He takes up room on the tier list and sub sequentially makes other characters in a lower tier. It seems the tier list is a bit arbitrary with each level of tiers. S level doesn't seem to mean much, except for a place to list people. In the manga when something is S classed it is for a reason, our ranking should hold some weight with each level example(S=Top tiers/A=High tiers etc). 

-We pretty much all know that Rikudo is the bar, without any feats his pure hype of fighting the country destroying Juubi, creating the moon and ninjutsu speak for themselves. Our tier list is for reference of all compiled characters, therefore if we know Rikudo is the benchmark or perfect power, then why should let him keep a whole tier as space, when other strong characters of note(Sm Kabuto giving life to inanimate objects, BM NAruto deflecting mountain sized Bjuu's, Madara/Hashi changing landscapes, and maps)could exist in such a tier and it would makes sense. Being in the S+ would denote a character's immense strength, denoting the top of the top, along with the bar rikudo.

-Rikudo compiles a small amount of threads in the B.D and Library concerning his strength. Some may make threads regarding specific aspects, and what not, but how many times have you seen a thread enititled "Rikudo Sennin vs. Orochimaru"? The only times we see threads with him are against a multitude of top tier characters which end up pointless to discuss as we have no true bearing on his strength.

So like I said if alot of you guys agree I think this should happen. If you think I'm off the wagon then I'll accept that. If you do like this though please vote for it.


----------



## Seph (Aug 24, 2012)

Either Hiruzen is trash or Hiruzen is > Hashirama.

You can't avoid this.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2012)

Seph said:


> Either Hiruzen is trash or Hiruzen is > Hashirama.
> 
> You can't avoid this.



Hashirama > Hiruzen but Hiruzen is still very strong probz a tier under Itachi/Minato maybe even on their tier. But not on Hashirama's tier.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 24, 2012)

We already decided the 3 characters were discussing (Gin/Kin, Konan, Sakon/Ukon). You guys are suppose to PM me the other characters you want to discuss so I can form a list of characters we can go through 3 at a time. Discussion of all other characters is suppose to wait until those characters brought up for discussion. By ignoring this and discussing them now all that's going to happen is your going to give more work for the Mods and if you give them too much work the thread is going to shut down. 

Also BTW Minato, Itachi, and Jiraiya are going to be thee last ones that we discuss, no chance in hell they will be the first. Why? Because the discussion on them is going to be the longest and most out of control. Hell the Mods and I can't even keep this discussion under control right now, when people aren't even suppose to be discussing these characters. So we'll be waiting until we actually got the revision process down pat before discussing these characters. 

So again discuss Gin/Kin, Konan, and Sakon/Ukon. And PM the characters you want to discuss in the future.




Immortal said:


> Kin/Gin are too high. The A, A- and B+ tiers all look a little jumbled to me, I think that's where the most debate will unfold.
> 
> Konan can stay there I believe, as others will rise and fall around her I think she can stay in that tier.
> 
> Idk why Sakon/Ukon is the third person to talk about hahaha but the entire Sound Four sans Jirobo should be on the C- tier.


Wait you think Konan is fine on A-, but 2 Guys who can transform in KN5 and have Rikudo's treasures aren't? I think Gin/Kin are fine where they are if we're counting them individually, but if were counting them as one entity than they should probably be A Tier, since 2 KN5's attacking someone seems a-lot for people in A- Tier to handle.




jimbob631 said:


> Kin and Gin should be considered separate imo because we've never seen them fight in there most powerful form together.  I think there placement is fine, a tier above Darui sounds about right.
> 
> I also agree with Konan's placement, she could be dropped one spot but I feel as if Kishimoto made the majority of akatsuki members fairly equal so I think her placement makes sense.  Obviously something went wrong with Sakon/Ukon, they should be considered as one entity imo because they battle together, its part of the jutsu.
> 
> They should be raised to the C tier with the rest of the Sound 4.


If they are 1 entity I think they should be C+ Tier. I mean Ukon has a 5 in Ninjutsu in the DB, they have really hax'd abilities, and essentially were the strongest Sound 5 besides Kimi. If counted separately I agree with C Tier though.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2012)

_*Sakon/Ukon*_
-All Sound Four were portrayed to be Special Jounin level with their Curse seals activated(evident by beating Raito, Genma, etc), which means base Sound 4 should be around chunin level. All Base Sound 4 should be in tier C-, but I think just putting them into their powerlevels at CS2 would be a better idea. *So Sakon/Ukon should be in tier C.*

*Gin/Kin Bro's*: were able to beat two Kage with some backup. One of them happened to be Tobirama the other was a raikage. Also they have kyuubi powers which help alot, I think they are perfect in that tier.

*Konan*: Perfect in her tier, she should be with the likes of Mei, and Kakazu.

Besides moving up Sakon/Ukon to Tier C this batch is pretty much set in stone.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 24, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> I disagree, Jiraiya should be a tier below Itachi and Minato. Pt.1 Kisame was dead on scared of him and had no counters to Frog Stomach.



Kisame comment was based on reputation. I for one, strongly disagree with Frog Stomach being the end game for Kisame.

@Turin: Why should we discuss Itachi/Minato last? Whats the difference, what are you afraid off that will happen if we discuss about them earlier?


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Kisame comment was based on reputation. I for one, strongly disagree with Frog Stomach being the end game for Kisame.
> 
> @Turin: Why should we discuss Itachi/Minato last? Whats the difference, what are you afraid off that will happen if we discuss about them earlier?



True but that repuatation still had that affect on him. Kisame strikes me as a loves to fight Mist guy, he went from trying to cut up NAruto to freaking out inside the frog walls he even stated "the walls are closing so fast! At this rate.." With beads of sweat coming over him. J-Man vs Kisame would be a good match up, especially since J-man counters Kisame's suitons so well.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Aug 24, 2012)

Sakon/Ukon - Tier C or maybe top of C-

Ginkaku and Kinkaku - Pretty much perfectly placed in that tier, but I believe there are others in that tier who could be in the tier above, most notably Kisame and Gai who should be one the bottom end of the above tier.

Konan - She's in the correct tier but too high imo, Kin and Gin should be higher as should gaara, sasori, deidara and kakuzu. As I've said above, gai and kisame are in the wrong tier so it goes without saying that they would be above konan too.

Also, I know this is off topic but in reply to earlier comments, Jiraiya and orochimaru are stronger than everyone on their tier, past kages included, how they are underrated in bullshit in this place. They should be top of that tier. Versatility is such an overlooked thing around here.

EDIT: Also, how fucking overrated is Kabuto!!! Outside of edo tensei, he is barely superior to the likes of nagato, shodai or BM naruto. He should be placed with and without ET.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Aug 24, 2012)

How the fuck is Sasori even placed in the same tier as Deidara 

- This is the dude who murdered Suna's most poweful Kage, 
- the dude who raped a fucking country 
- the dude who Deidara admitted inferiority to (and he is placed not only the same tier as Deidara but even lower )
- the dude was planning on taking out Orochimaru (and they were ex-partners and should know each other strengths, although he expected Kabuto to be on his side)
- the dude who has massive DB stats (almost equal to Sannin en 2nd best Akatsuki stats next to Itachi), he is well rounded in every area
- This dude is basically Suna's version of Orochimaru, and should at least get that level of respect


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 24, 2012)

@ hitokugutsu

It's because there are simply too many tiers, which means each tier is stretched thin in order to make it fit. We really should have voted on how many tiers to use first... Right now I honestly can't say who needs to move, because there are too many tiers for my view. That said, I can still agree with you that Sasori is probably more at him one tier up in this format.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Aug 24, 2012)

Yeah, there's some wrongly placed characters for sure, and all the characters that have been recently introduced in the manga are being wanked harder than the older characters, which is to be expected I guess.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Aug 24, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> _*Sakon/Ukon*_
> -All Sound Four were portrayed to be Special Jounin level with their Curse seals activated(evident by beating Raito, Genma, etc), which means base Sound 4 should be around chunin level. All Base Sound 4 should be in tier C-, but I think just putting them into their powerlevels at CS2 would be a better idea. *So Sakon/Ukon should be in tier C.*
> 
> *Gin/Kin Bro's*: were able to beat two Kage with some backup. One of them happened to be Tobirama the other was a raikage. Also they have kyuubi powers which help alot, I think they are perfect in that tier.
> ...



I may be slightly off since it has been so long, but didn't the Sound 4 barely beat Raido and Genma? Raido and Genma are only Special Jonin. It's possible though that they are potentially special Jonin level. Sakon/Ukon have their potential, they can work together to cover their blindspots and work in unison for taijutsu; striking and defending from anywhere. Can also use Rashoumon for defense and destroy a person from the inside-out by leaping into them. Then there's the Curse Seal lv.2 which makes them stronger, more durable, and have more chakra. 

Anyway...

Kin/Gin are at least Jonin level without their Kyuubi power and just their weapons, they seemed to be elite and ninjas before ever getting Kyuubi powers though and I would had loved to see their own jutsus. They showed to be strong and fast in their base forms with good taijutsu skill and cunning. With the Kyuubi power they get healing and a shitload of chakra, then when they transform they get a strong defensive coating around their bodies, greatly increased strength and speed, as well as multiple tails for offense and defense with great range; one of which can destroy part of a mountain. It took Darui, Kitsuchi, Ino-Shika-Cho, an army, plus outside help from Ei and Mabui to beat him. 

Konan is hard to hurt, she can turn herself into thousands of sheets of paper and can disassemble and reassemble herself anywhere she wants. She can fly, make her paper hard, form it into weapons, shields, and a variety of other shapes, not to mention bind people, make paper clones and can control paper bombs. Let's also not forget that she can change the colors of her paper, using it for concealment.


----------



## Vice (Aug 24, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> I may be slightly off since it has been so long, but didn't the Sound 4 barely beat Raido and Genma?



No, they pretty much destroyed them.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> I may be slightly off since it has been so long, but didn't the Sound 4 barely beat Raido and Genma? Raido and Genma are only Special Jonin. It's possible though that they are potentially special Jonin level. Sakon/Ukon have their potential, they can work together to cover their blindspots and work in unison for taijutsu; striking and defending from anywhere. Can also use Rashoumon for defense and destroy a person from the inside-out by leaping into them. Then there's the Curse Seal lv.2 which makes them stronger, more durable, and have more chakra.
> 
> Anyway...
> 
> ...



They used their marks to barely get a win, regardless they got the win. I also highly doubt they used the moves they did individually against Konoha genin as Kidomaru could have potentially soloed along with Tayuya.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Aug 24, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> They used their marks to barely get a win,  regardless they got the win. I also highly doubt they used the moves  they did individually against Konoha genin as Kidomaru could have  potentially soloed along with Tayuya.



But it was 4 vs. 2, and they barely won. 



Sniffers said:


> @ hitokugutsu
> 
> It's because there are simply too many tiers, which means each tier is stretched thin in order to make it fit. We really should have voted on how many tiers to use first... Right now I honestly can't say who needs to move, because there are too many tiers for my view. That said, I can still agree with you that Sasori is probably more at him one tier up in this format.



I agree, there are too many tiers. There are so many characters that are just so close to each other, but we have to spread them so thin in each tier. 

I almost feel like we should just stick to the "tiers" established in the manga by Kishimoto, the only problem though is that there do seem to be some characters that fit in-between his tiers: 

Rikudou
Legendary
Kage
Jonin
Special Jonin
Chuunin
Genin


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2012)

All we need is
Legends
Kage
Elite Jounin
Jounin
Chunnin 
Genin


----------



## hitokugutsu (Aug 24, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> @ hitokugutsu
> 
> It's because there are simply too many tiers, which means each tier is stretched thin in order to make it fit. We really should have voted on how many tiers to use first... Right now I honestly can't say who needs to move, because there are too many tiers for my view. That said, I can still agree with you that Sasori is probably more at him one tier up in this format.



I agree. This tier list already waay to messed up. Lower tier are fine. 

But upper tiers are getting messy woth sooo much subdivisions

We should have just used this image Kishimoto gave us as a reference for upper tiers:

[sp=Tag yo' shit][/sp]

_BM Naruto ~ EMS Sasuke ~ Hashirama ~ EMS Madara

KCM Naruto ~ MS Sasuke (note: we *briefly* saw full MS Sasuke and he could be placed a tier lower due to not having a full battle with his perfect MS) ~ Minato ~ Itachi ~ Nagato ~ SM Kabuto ~ Prime Hiruzen

SM Naruto ~ Hebi/CS2 Sasuke ~ Jiraya ~ Orochimaru ~ most other Kages ~ motherfucking Sasori 

FRS Naruto ~ Kirin Sasuke (before Oro absorbing) ~ Kakashi (before the mastery of Kamui haxx he is showing current chapters , current Kakashi can be placed higher) ~ Gai ~ Darui ~ Kitsuchi ~ Kisame ~ Kakuzu ~ Deidara ~ Konan ~ weaker Kages such as Mei ~ Yondaime Kazekage etc_

Only 2 people are currently higher then BM naruto tier: Rinnegan Madara & Rinnegan Tobi

Also no need to rank Rikudou Sennin, since no one has reached his level


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 24, 2012)

Sakon/Ukon: I consider them to be one entity, largely because they were a part of the Sound 5 (not 6). We've also never seen them really fight independently as they share a body.

The fact that part one Kiba was able to give them a good fight, while Genma Raito were heavily implied to be superior to anyone Sound 4 member, makes me believe they are solid Chuunin level. D+ is too low, they should be in the C range, probably a solid C. I think every member of the Sound 4 should be placed in the same tier. I don't feel as though there was a significant gap between any of them. 


Kin/Gin: I would count them as seperate entities. I thought that they were each stronger than Darui, one of the strongest Jonin in the world. They essentially crippled a division and it took a huge group of the divisions elites teaming up with a strategy to defeat them I would say that they are both low Kage, and warrant A- grade.

Konan: I would not consider Paper Ocean a general part of her power, but I would keep it in mind. Like, she might only be able to use it in 1% of her fights, so I would only consider it a small portion of her power because of how impractical and unlikely it is that she has it ready and uses it. 

I think her fight with Jiraiya shows that without prep, she cannot realistically defeat a strong Kage level opponent. She was still able to run through Konoha unscathed, and gave Tobi a hard time though. I personally consider her to be elite Jonin level, B+ would be best for her IMO.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Aug 24, 2012)

Turrin is not going to change that system now, and the tier system is fine as long as you distinguish them in your own mind.

The problem is the placement of characters so lets get this show on the road. 

Being honest, I'm imagining not a great deal of members will care for the tiers below B so I'd start with Kisame, Gai and Mifune as I believe they are all wrongly positioned and there would be high levels of interest on these characters.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 24, 2012)

*IMPORTANT!*

For right now here's what we neeed to vote on:

*Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:*

Yes: Turrin

No:

*Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:*

Yes:

No: Turrin 

*Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:*

Yes:

No: Turrin 

Leave it up to voters: 

Also I'm going to repeat this for the third time any suggestions for the next three characters we should discuss, should be PM'd to me, rather than discussed in this thread, so I can compile a list of them. 





Sniffers said:


> @ hitokugutsu
> 
> It's because there are simply too many tiers, which means each tier is stretched thin in order to make it fit. We really should have voted on how many tiers to use first... Right now I honestly can't say who needs to move, because there are too many tiers for my view. That said, I can still agree with you that Sasori is probably more at him one tier up in this format.



We already did vote and when we voted there was an option for broader tiers. The vote ended up being 19 people in favor of letter grades (D- through S+) with 2 in favor of broad tiers. 

Also I fail to see how more broad tiers would be the answer to Hitokugutsu problems. If the tiers were more broad, it would just make it even more difficult for Sasori to get a placement higher than Deidara and more likely for them to be placed together. 



Kakashi Hatake said:


> @Turin: Why should we discuss Itachi/Minato last? Whats the difference, what are you afraid off that will happen if we discuss about them earlier?


I'm afraid of a shit storm that gets the thread close. The difference is if we do them last we'll have the revision process more defined by than with people knowing what they are suppose to be doing. At this point we can barely even discuss 3 characters who don't have large fandoms due to all the off topic BS.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Aug 24, 2012)

Phoenix Zoro said:


> Turrin is not going to change that system now, and the tier system is fine as long as you distinguish them in your own mind.



That's the problem though, people are going to fight about placements because other peoples' views don't match their views. At least with a simplified tier system, there won't be so much ambiguity over whether a character is A-, A,- A+, or S-. Hell, we don't even know what characters belong in what tiers, it's also open to each person to distinguish how powerful B+ is from someone else's B+, which leads to more arguing.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2012)

Gin/Kin should be one entity, they haven't appeared separate and hold similar abilities. 

Same thing with Sakon and Ukon, I mean sure they have the ability to fight apart but they are most effective together.

Paper Ocean should not be apart of her move set, because it takes prep that she won't be granted vs any opponent at any time. It would be like giving Kabuto the Edo Army he brought into the War.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 24, 2012)

Turrin said:


> For right now here's what we neeed to vote on:
> 
> *Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:*
> 
> ...



I'm not sure if Yes or No is really a good way to judge Paper Ocean.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Aug 24, 2012)

Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:

Yes: Turrin OWYB TBD

No:

Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:

Yes:

No: Turrin OWYB TBD

Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:

Yes: TBD

No: Turrin


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 24, 2012)

Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:

Yes: Turrin OWYB TBD

No: Dr. White

Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:

Yes:

No: Turrin OWYB TBD, Dr. White

Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:

Yes: TBD, Dr. White

No: Turrin, Dr. White

Edit: I agree, I switch my vote to Dragnus with Dragnus Reasoning. *Yes* for Paper Ocean w/ prep


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 24, 2012)

*Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:*

Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN [4]

No: Dr. White [1]

Really it could go either way because there has been no mention of one being stronger than the other. They should end up right next to each other anyway.

*Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:*

Yes: [0]

No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN [5]

Similar to above. Whether we considered them separate or together, they'll end up next to each other.

*Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:*

Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN [3]

No: Turrin [1]

While I personally wouldn't attribute it's full strength to her, it's still part of her arsenal and capabilities. It requiring preparation holds no relevance, not that we really know how long or much prep is needed.


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 24, 2012)

*Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:
*
Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN [4]

No: Dr. White, Hossaim  [2]
They would be on the same tier, but a lot lower than now. They complete eachother with their weapons and are weak seperatd

*Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:
*
Yes: [0]

No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim [6]

See above

*Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:
*
Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim [4]

No: Turrin [1]

Yes. We count Kirin for Hebi Sauce no? Same deal.

Konan imo is stronger than both Tsunade and Kin/Gin. While they are on that tier, she should be too. 

Kin/Gin tougether should be moved down 1, they are on the same tier as Darui and Mifune.

Seperate they should be moved down like 3. 

Sakon/Ukon should be moved up 2. They are deadly if they touch you.


----------



## JPongo (Aug 25, 2012)

*Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:
*
Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo [5]

No: Dr. White, Hossaim  [2]

*Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:
*
Yes: [0]

No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo [7]

See above

*Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:
*
Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim [4]

No: Turrin, Jpongo [2]


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 25, 2012)

*Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:
*
Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo, WPK [6]

No: Dr. White, Hossaim  [2]

*Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:
*
Yes: [0]

No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo, WPK [8]


*Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:
*
Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, WPK [5]

No: Turrin, Jpongo [2]

It is still a part of her arsenal, even if she normally wouldn't have it. If your goal here Turrin was if we voted yes we'd have to vote on her as if she always has it(which would be silly) then your worded this wrong but as is, it just means I have to count it, doesn't say how much I have to count it.


As for placement, I already expressed my opinion that Konan should be in the B+ tier. All of the sound 4 should be in the same tier, as none of them was shown to be significantly weaker/stronger than the others, though going by hype Orochimaru said that Sakon/Ukon was the strongest(and it makes sense given his ability to cast a high level jutsu like Rashomon), so Sakon/Ukon should be on the C tier. Moving onto Kinkaku and Ginkaku, they both showed rather high skill in taijutsu in their base forms and their weapons can be quite dangerous without knowledge, though as they're not being counted together that splits the weapons, making half of them useless. Their kyuubi forms is where their true power lies and it took a whole division(which included two characters in the B+ tier) plus outside help just to take out Kinkaku in his kyuubi form(which Ginkaku would also have), so I believe they're both deserving of A- tier. If we had kept them together they would have needed to be moved up.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 25, 2012)

Turrin said:


> We already did vote and when we voted there was an option for broader tiers. The vote ended up being 19 people in favor of letter grades (D- through S+) with 2 in favor of broad tiers.


Where? I only saw people vote on what labels to use not on how many tiers. 



Turrin said:


> Also I fail to see how more broad tiers would be the answer to Hitokugutsu problems. If the tiers were more broad, it would just make it even more difficult for Sasori to get a placement higher than Deidara and more likely for them to be placed together.


If the tier is broader than it also becomes more acceptable that some characters are put together in that tier.

It's too late now anyway...


----------



## Melodie (Aug 25, 2012)

*Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:*

Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie [7]

No: Dr. White, Hossaim [2]

*Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:*

Yes: [0]

No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie [9]


*Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:*

Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, WPK [5]

No: Turrin, Jpongo, Melodie [3]

Unlike Kirin, she can't do that in the middle of battle. Yes, it's a part of her arsenal, but what's the point of ranking her up if she can't utilise said technique in a fight? It doesn't make her a formidable fighter, it makes her an intelligent shinobi, considering how she countered Tobi effectively.​


----------



## Eliyua23 (Aug 25, 2012)

*Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:*

Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie [7]

No: Dr. White, Hossaim, Eliyua23 [3]

*Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:*

Yes: [0]

No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Eliyua23 [10]


*Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:*

Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, WPK, Eliyua23 [6]

No: Turrin, Jpongo, Melodie [3]


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 25, 2012)

*Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:*

Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Strat [8]

No: Dr. White, Hossaim, Eliyua23 [3]

*Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:*

Yes: [0]

No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Eliyua23, Strat [11]


*Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:*

Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, WPK, Eliyua23, Strat [7]

No: Turrin, Jpongo, Melodie [3]

I think Konan's jutsu should be somewhat weighted. It's in her arsenal, but she can't use it all the time. So I would not immediately place her in Pain's tier, but I wouldn't put her next to Hidan either. I think her current tier placement is a fair mixture of Konan with and without preparation.


----------



## Jad (Aug 25, 2012)

I think we should next discuss Gai's placement (I am not sure if you have them in order within their group brackets, but if it is, it is disgustingly underrating). I believe he should be moved up a tier.

*Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:*

Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Strat [8]

No: Dr. White, Hossaim, Eliyua23, Jad [4]

_(They are practically Twins and have the same ability, why not?)_

*Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:*

Yes: [0]

No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Eliyua23, Strat, Jad [12]


*Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:*

Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, WPK, Eliyua23, Strat [7]

No: Turrin, Jpongo, Melodie, Jad [4]


----------



## Alex Payne (Aug 25, 2012)

*Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:*

 Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Strat [8]

 No: Dr. White, Hossaim, Eliyua23, Jad, Payne [5]


*Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:*

 Yes: [0]

 No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Eliyua23, Strat, Jad, Payne [13]


*Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:*

 Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, WPK, Eliyua23, Strat, Payne [8]

 No: Turrin, Jpongo, Melodie, Jad [4]


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 25, 2012)

Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:

Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Strat [8]

No: Dr. White, Hossaim, Eliyua23, Jad, Payne, KH [6]


Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:

Yes: [0]

No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Eliyua23, Strat, Jad, Payne [13]


Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:

Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, WPK, Eliyua23, Strat, Payne, KH [9]

No: Turrin, Jpongo, Melodie, Jad [4]


----------



## Sferr (Aug 25, 2012)

Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:

 Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Strat, Sferr [8]

 No: Dr. White, Hossaim, Eliyua23, Jad, Payne, KH [6]


 Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:

 Yes: [0]

 No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Eliyua23, Strat, Jad, Payne, Sferr [13]


 Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:

 Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, WPK, Eliyua23, Strat, Payne, KH [9]

 No: Turrin, Jpongo, Melodie, Jad, Sferr [4]

Paper Ocean was just a trap that needed maybe weeks to be prepared. Many people can create a broken trap if they have so many prep time.


----------



## Wizard (Aug 25, 2012)

Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:

Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Strat, Sferr [8]

No: Dr. White, Hossaim, Eliyua23, Jad, Payne, KH, Wizard [7]


Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:

Yes: [0]

No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Eliyua23, Strat, Jad, Payne, Sferr, Wizard [14]


Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:

Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, WPK, Eliyua23, Strat, Payne, KH [9]

No: Turrin, Jpongo, Melodie, Jad, Sferr, Wizard [5]


----------



## Immortal (Aug 25, 2012)

Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:

 Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Strat, Sferr [8]

 No: Dr. White, Hossaim, Eliyua23, Jad, Payne, KH, Wizard, Immortal [8]


 Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:

 Yes: [0]

 No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Eliyua23, Strat, Jad, Payne, Sferr, Wizard, Immortal [15]


 Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:

 Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, WPK, Eliyua23, Strat, Payne, KH, Immortal [10]

 No: Turrin, Jpongo, Melodie, Jad, Sferr, Wizard [5]



I mean no one is stupid when it comes to Konan... we all know she needed prep, but the fact still stands that she _can_ do it. This isn't the battledome or a vs. situation where we need to talk about if she has prep or not, we're not tiering Prepped Konan, we're just prepping Konan. We know she's capable of performing such a feat, but we also know she can't just do it out of the blue. Seems easy to place imo.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 26, 2012)

I was going to close the voting down and open up voting on the new placements, but it seems the vote is pretty close, so I guess i'll wait till tomorrow.


----------



## Melodie (Aug 26, 2012)

*Correction:*

*Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:*

Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Strat, Sferr [9]

No: Dr. White, Hossaim, Eliyua23, Jad, Payne, KH, Wizard, Immortal [8]


*Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:*

Yes: [0]

No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Eliyua23, Strat, Jad, Payne, Sferr, Wizard, Immortal [16]


*Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:*

Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, WPK, Eliyua23, Strat, Payne, KH, Immortal [10]

No: Turrin, Jpongo, Melodie, Jad, Sferr, Wizard [6]


----------



## Johnny Kage (Aug 26, 2012)

Whats White Fang doing in the list, he haven't even fight? Also i sugest just using the current forms of characters, EG: No SM or KCM Naruto, Just Naruto. It would make the list more simple


----------



## Final Jutsu (Aug 26, 2012)

Johnny Kage said:


> Whats White Fang doing in the list, he haven't even fight? Also i sugest just using the current forms of characters, EG: No SM or KCM Naruto, Just Naruto. It would make the list more simple




thread includes hype.  By hype, TWF > sannin.  It's been stated 2 times in the DB, and a better translation has it in the manga too from Minato(wasn't reputation he spoke of only supposedly).

Anyways, it'd probably be stupid to include Konan's paper ocean.  That took years of calculation, prep, etc.  It was made to specifically counter Tobi's abilities as well.  I don't know if she'd have gone to those extreme methods against any other opponent.  She viewed him as darkness and blahblah.


----------



## Johnny Kage (Aug 26, 2012)

Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:

Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Strat, Sferr, Johnny [10]

No: Dr. White, Hossaim, Eliyua23, Jad, Payne, KH, Wizard, Immortal [8]


Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:

Yes: [0]

No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Eliyua23, Strat, Jad, Payne, Sferr, Wizard, Immortal, Johnny [17]


Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:

Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, WPK, Eliyua23, Strat, Payne, KH, Immortal, Johnny [11]

No: Turrin, Jpongo, Melodie, Jad, Sferr, Wizard, [6]


------------------------------------------------------------------
Turrin, in case nobody proposed it yet, i would like to suggest the next vote for including or not Koto/Izanami for Itachi.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 26, 2012)

Why people count Kin/Gin as separate entities? They both share the same abilities and role in the manga, they're like identical twins.


----------



## Ghost (Aug 26, 2012)

*Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:*

Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Strat, Sferr, Johnny [10]

No: Dr. White, Hossaim, Eliyua23, Jad, Payne, KH, Wizard, Immortal, Shirosaki [9]


*Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:*

Yes: [0]

No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Eliyua23, Strat, Jad, Payne, Sferr, Wizard, Immortal, Johnny, Shirosaki [18]


*Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:*

Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, WPK, Eliyua23, Strat, Payne, KH, Immortal, Johnny [11]

No: Turrin, Jpongo, Melodie, Jad, Sferr, Wizard, Shirosaki [7]


----------



## Turrin (Aug 26, 2012)

*IMPORTANT!*

Alright I think we should move on to actually re-voting on placements. For the purpose of that people should follow this format with their vote:

*Gin & Kin*
Considering we're counting them as separate entities, I'm fine with their current placement on A- Tier. Kinkaku alone took Darui, Shikkamaru, Ino, Choji, Kitsuchi, etc... to defeat so I believe they possess the portrayal and hype to be above B+ Tier, but I don't really see anything putting them on A Tier. Mu (A Tier Shinobi) was hyped more than them and had a better showing imo, just to show one example. 

So *Vote: A- *

*Sakon/Ukon*
Considering were counting them as the same entity, I think Sakon-Ukon are placed way too low on the tier list. In terms of feats they have some of the best out of all the sound 4, possessing one of the most Hax'd abilities  Kisei Kikai no Jutsu and being able to use Orochimaru Rashōmon. Also the DB gives them some good hype in terms of Stats and if we combined their statistical scores, we end up with an entity who has:
both a 5 in Ninjutsu and 4s in Hand-seals + Stamina. I don't think it's a stretch to say the two combined are the strongest Sound 5, besides Kimmimaru. Considering Kimmi is on B- and the other sound 5 (besides Jirobo whose placement is in question anyway) are on C tier, I'd say throwing them in the middle at C+ makes the most sense. 

So *Vote: C+ *

*Konan*
We have voted to count her Paper Ocean, but due to the steep requirements for it's usage I don't see it adding to her overall power in more than a very select few battles, so I don't consider it having a large impact on her placement. With Paper Ocean aside Konan has some good feats and hype, but I don't think her feats or hype match her current placement on A- Tier, I think they more closely fit B+ Tier alongside characters like Kitsuchi, Darui, and Chiyo.

So *Vote: B+*


----------



## Vice (Aug 26, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Why people count Kin/Gin as separate entities? They both share the same abilities and role in the manga, they're like identical twins.



This. They're just going to end up being placed one right after the other in the tier list anyway.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 26, 2012)

Vice said:


> This. They're just going to end up being placed one right after the other in the tier list anyway.


But there is a major difference if we count them as individuals they each have different treasures. If we count them as a single entity  they have all 5 treasures between the them, which makes them extremely hax'd considering once they curse a person they can't not talk, can't use their favorite word, and because of Amber sealing pot they can't reply to anything Gin/Kin say. Also if counted as a single entity we have to account for the possibility, that someone fighting them would be up against not 1 but 2 Version 2 Jinchuuriki who can still retain their consciousness and thus still use the sacred treasures. They really only lost to Alliance because they underestimated them and because the alliance used their own 5th treasure against them. If counted as one entity I'd say they are at least a A Tier if not A+.


----------



## Inferno (Aug 26, 2012)

*Should we count Gin/Kin as separate entities:*

Yes: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, DN, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Strat, Sferr, Johnny [10]

No: Dr. White, Hossaim, Eliyua23, Jad, Payne, KH, Wizard, Immortal, Shirosaki, Inferno [10]


*Should we count Sakon/Ukon as separate entities:*

Yes: [0]

No: Turrin, OWYB, TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, Jpongo, WPK, Melodie, Eliyua23, Strat, Jad, Payne, Sferr, Wizard, Immortal, Johnny, Shirosaki, Inferno [19]


*Should we count Paper Ocean for Konan:*

Yes: TBD, Dr. White, DN, Hossaim, WPK, Eliyua23, Strat, Payne, KH, Immortal, Johnny, Inferno [12] - _*We're counting Edo Tensei, aren't we?*_

No: Turrin, Jpongo, Melodie, Jad, Sferr, Wizard, Shirosaki [7]



I think we should discuss Hashirama and Tobi (Pre-Rinnegan's) placements sooner or later. Both should definitely be a little higher up, especially if Tobi's given Kyuubi. But I agree that there's more pressing matters.


----------



## Sferr (Aug 26, 2012)

Ok, so are Kin/Gin separate or not yet?

Also, I think first should be discussed the dead characters. They don't have anything else to show us, whereas Gai, for example, is now effectively fighting the main(?) villain and still can show something new.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 26, 2012)

Yes Gin and Kin are separate inferno voted after I already closed that portion of the voting down (sorry inferno   )


----------



## Inferno (Aug 26, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Yes Gin and Kin are separate inferno voted after I already closed that portion of the voting down (sorry inferno   )



Oh shucks, my bad for not noticing.


----------



## Sferr (Aug 26, 2012)

Ok then here is my initial post:

*Kinkaku and Ginkaku:*

First, as they are counted separately, I think you, Turrin, should separate them in the tier list.

So, both Kinkaku and Ginkaku were effectively portrayed as Kage level shinobi so I don't think they belong to B+ but they didn't have a showing nor hype in comparison with other kages to be placed in the A tier either. Plus they are separate too.

Vote: *A-*

*Sakon/Ukon*

Them being together with Obito and Iruka is just ridiculous. They have quite hax powers being able to heal each other quickly plus one of them has an ability to invade an opponent's body. And this could potentially screw even much stronger people than them. Plus there are two of them too. 

Tiers from D+ to even C+ seem quite random to me. I don't even know where to rank them. I guess tier C will be ok.

Vote: *C*

*Konan*

I am not going to take into account Paper Ocean because there is basically no situation when she can use it in a random encounter because of a ridiculous prep time that she must have and a very specific location. It wasn't even a technique, it was a well prepared trap. In general Konan has basically complete mastery of her technique thanks to what she can do incredible and unique things. But there are very many weaknesses to her technique. Jiraiya oneshotted her for a reason. That being said, there are a handful of high tiers that can't do anything to her.

Vote: *A-*


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 26, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Alright I think we should move on to actually re-voting on placements. For the purpose of that people should follow this format with their vote:
> 
> *Gin & Kin*
> Considering we're counting them as separate entities, I'm fine with their current placement on A- Tier. Kinkaku alone took Darui, Shikkamaru, Ino, Choji, Kitsuchi, etc... to defeat so I believe they possess the portrayal and hype to be above B+ Tier, but I don't really see anything putting them on A Tier. Mu (A Tier Shinobi) was hyped more than them and had a better showing imo, just to show one example.
> ...



Can I just pretty much agree completely with this for my vote? The difference between Paper Ocean and Edo Tensei is that Edo Tensei becomes a permanent, instant summon for the user after the intiial preparation, whereas Paper Ocean requires special preparation before each battle that it's used. It's more akin to Shikamaru's trap set-up for Hidan than Edo Tensei or Sasori's puppets.​


----------



## Turrin (Aug 26, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Can I just pretty much agree completely with this for my vote?​


It's okay to agree with someone's vote as long as you give some of your own reasoning, which you did. Maybe try and give a bit more next time though.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 26, 2012)

_*Sakon/Ukon*_
-All Sound Four were portrayed to be Special Jounin level with their Curse seals activated(evident by beating Raito, Genma, etc), which means base Sound 4 should be around chunin level. All Base Sound 4 should be in tier C-, but I think just putting them into their powerlevels at CS2 would be a better idea. *So Sakon/Ukon should be in tier C.*

*Gin/Kin Bro's*: were able to beat two Kage with some backup. One of them happened to be Tobirama the other was a raikage. Also they have kyuubi powers which help alot, I think they are perfect in that tier.

*Konan*: Perfect in her tier, she should be with the likes of Mei, and Kakazu.

Besides moving up Sakon/Ukon to Tier C this batch is pretty much set in stone.


----------



## Immortal (Aug 26, 2012)

Just a sidenote, you should try to be more cemented with your polls in the future Turrin, I mean by setting a time frame - poll will close in 24 hours sorta thing.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 27, 2012)

Sakon/Ukon: The fact that part one Kiba was able to give them a good fight, while Genma and Raido were heavily implied to be superior to anyone Sound 4 member, makes me believe they are solid Chuunin level. D+ is way too low, they should be in the C range, probably a C+. I think every member of the Sound 4 should be placed in the same tier. I don't feel as though there was a significant gap between any of them. I'll vote C+.

Kin/Gin: It took Darui and Kitsuchi (two generals and two of the strongest Jonin in the world), Ino-Shika-Cho, and countless fodder to defeat just Kinkaku. They essentially crippled a division. I would say that they are both low Kage, and warrant A- grade each.

Konan: I would not consider Paper Ocean a general part of her power, but I would keep it in mind. Like, she might only be able to use it in 1% of her fights, so I would only consider it a small portion of her power because of how impractical and unlikely it is that she has it ready and uses it. 

I think her fight with Jiraiya shows that without prep, she cannot realistically defeat a strong Kage level opponent. She was still able to run through Konoha unscathed, and gave Tobi a hard time though. I personally consider her to be elite Jonin level, B+ would be best for her IMO.


----------



## Alex Payne (Aug 27, 2012)

*Sakon/Ukon*: nifty bloodline, good taijutsu and barrier-skills. Rashomon gate. Still don't know why sound 4 members got separated like that. *Tier: C*

*Kinkaku/Ginkaku:* considering that Kinkaku has V2 Kyubi Mode and his brother lacks that(it looked that way to me at least) I think that they belong in different tiers. *Kinkaku: A Ginkaku: A-* Ranking them separately is stupid though  How do you divide Rikudo's treasure? Having Banana Fan is better than parts of soul-ripping equipment. I also didn't rate them in my Tier List with Amber Pot in mind - and now I simply can't. Who knows what brother used that Pot more often/to whom give it?

*Konan:* Potential ability to use paper ocean is neat. But that's simply a potential prep-dependent ability. She is still somewhat in Kage-territory imo
*Tier: A-*


----------



## Turrin (Aug 27, 2012)

Immortal said:


> Just a sidenote, you should try to be more cemented with your polls in the future Turrin, I mean by setting a time frame - poll will close in 24 hours sorta thing.



Yeah I'll include one from now on. BTW I'm going to close the current poll out in 18 hours.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Aug 27, 2012)

Sferr said:


> Ok then here is my initial post:
> 
> *Kinkaku and Ginkaku:*
> 
> ...



I pretty *almost* agree with this ranking. 

Short analysis:

*Kin/Gin*
They were indeed powerful and KN6 basically makes them being able to stand up to most powerfull kages. But in the end they lack versatility. Gin/Kin only have 1 fighting style when they go KN6. No ninjutsu, genjutsu. Not even special Biju Bombs. So I think A- is fine
Or perhaps at the bottom of A tier. The biggest (un-answered) question is how long he can keep up KN6. I assume he has a limit, since he obviously lacks a Biju. The Tools are fun an gimmicky weapons, but they would seriously lack against powerfull Kage opponents. 
*A- tier is fine*
If we counted Gin/Kin together I would have placed them at top of the A tier btw

*Sakon/Ukon*
C tier is fine. Although I would put all of the Sound 4 at the same tier. And then Sakon/Ukon being the "strongest" one of them

*Konan*
If we dont include Paper Ocean (rightfully so btw) then *B+ tier*
People like Darui en Kistuchi would give a run for her money and potentially beat her (assuming no prep Paper Ocean)


Also before the end of this prelimary tier List Sasori will get his righfull place 


Edit: Also, I was looking at the tiers again, and seriously, the A/A-/B+ tier can easily be fused into 2 tiers: Kage and Low Kage level
I can't be the only one who sees this.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 27, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Also before the end of this prelimary tier List Sasori will get his righfull place
> 
> 
> Edit: Also, I was looking at the tiers again, and seriously, the A/A-/B+ tier can easily be fused into 2 tiers: Kage and Low Kage level
> I can't be the only one who sees this.



-Yes he will Sasori should be in the same tier as current Kakashi and Gai, besides the Monster trio of akatsuki(Tobi, ITachi, and Pein)Kisame and Sasori were the deadliest ninja

I agree with that and Rikudo should not get his own tier


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Aug 27, 2012)

^ Agree

Kin/Gin - For me, they are perfect in their tier, and at the top of it considering the destructive power that the kyuubi grants them on top of their already dangerous abilities. Not versatile or intelligent enough to warrant any higher imo.

Verdict: A-

Sakon/Ukon - Rashomon and CS2 are good hype, but at the end of the day, they were caused trouble by pre-skip Kiba. 

Verdict: C

Konan - Probably in the right tier in A-, but she should be nowhere near the top of it by any stretch. Without Paper Ocean, probably only a B+, can't see her as more dangerous than Darui or Kitsuchi.

Verdict: A- with PO / B+ w/o PO


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 28, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> So you do not believe her to be on the level of people like Darui, Mifune and Chiyo? I think she could possibly beat all three of them, as her Shikigami no Mai makes her one of the hardest characters in the manga to damage and against opponents without high durability/regen, she can be pretty dangerous offensively when mixing in exploding tags with her paper jutsu. This list includes hype and Madara praised her, she also has the general hype of being an Akatsuki member which should at least put her even with Hidan in the area of hype.
> 
> I think her showing against Jiraiya has clouded your judgement of her. He had knowledge of her ability and a strong counter in oil, not many people can deal with her near intangibility when using Shikigami no Mai as easily as he did.





WolfPrinceKiba said:


> As for placement, I already expressed my opinion that Konan should be in the B+ tier. All of the sound 4 should be in the same tier, as none of them was shown to be significantly weaker/stronger than the others, though going by hype Orochimaru said that Sakon/Ukon was the strongest(and it makes sense given his ability to cast a high level jutsu like Rashomon), so Sakon/Ukon should be on the C tier. Moving onto Kinkaku and Ginkaku, they both showed rather high skill in taijutsu in their base forms and their weapons can be quite dangerous without knowledge, though as they're not being counted together that splits the weapons, making half of them useless. Their kyuubi forms is where their true power lies and it took a whole division(which included two characters in the B+ tier) plus outside help just to take out Kinkaku in his kyuubi form(which Ginkaku would also have), so I believe they're both deserving of A- tier. If we had kept them together they would have needed to be moved up.


So:

*Konan: B+*
*Sakon/Ukon: C* 
*Kinkaku: A-*
*Ginkaku: A-*


----------



## Melodie (Aug 28, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> So:
> 
> *Konan: B+*
> *Sakon/Ukon: C*
> ...



Can I agree with this for my vote? It's pretty accurate in my point of view.​


----------



## Turrin (Aug 28, 2012)

Melodie said:


> Can I agree with this for my vote? It's pretty accurate in my point of view.​


You got to provide some reasoning. See Strategoob's vote.


----------



## Melodie (Aug 28, 2012)

Turrin said:


> You got to provide some reasoning. See Strategoob's vote.



*The Kin/Gin brothers :*Considering that they're separate, their strength is reduced; as they don't have all of the tools. Their Kyuubi form makes their placement in the tier list solid, in other words no changes. If we have considered them together, they should be above that as the tools are pretty dangerous.

*Konan:* I don't see her fit in the current Tier. Despite her formidable angel form [being immune to a lot of attacks]. She cant really win against any shinobi in that list (she may, however, put a fight. Her performance and hype is below the listed shinobis as well). She may beat the majority in B+, but it depends on how it plays out, so I'd say that she should be there--above; as her Hype transcend theirs.

*Sakon/Ukon:* in terms of performance I'd say that all of the sound four are equal, and yes, they should be all in the same tier. I must also note that Sakon/Ukon were hyped to be the strongest between the sound four, pretty much what wolfprincekiba noted.​


----------



## Turrin (Aug 28, 2012)

*IMPORTANT!*

Alright I'm closing down the Voting for the current three characters. I'll tabulate any changes in placement when I get the chance. I have decided the next 3 characters based on the amount of requests via PM I got for them to come up next (*Remember to PM the characters you want to see brought up for revisions*): Gai, Mifune, Baki. 

The Discussion will open on them Today, than in *24 hours 5:15 PM tomorrow*, you guys can start Re-voting on their placements. Than the Revote will end *48 hours later, so 5:15 PM on Friday*.


----------



## Sferr (Aug 28, 2012)

Duh, all of these characters shouldn't be discussed now. *Especially* Gai. He is now participating in the main (?) villain battle where he used just 6th Gates for a brief moment. He still has yet to open even 7th Gates, not to mention the 8th. He now can show plenty of new feats that might seriously change his current position in many people's minds.

Baki and Mifune are alive too and technically can show something new too. IMO, the dead characters are those who should be discussed now.


----------



## Inferno (Aug 28, 2012)

Sferr said:


> Duh, all of these characters shouldn't be discussed now. *Especially* Gai. He is now participating in the main (?) villain battle where he used just 6th Gates for a brief moment. He still has yet to open even 7th Gates, not to mention the 8th. He now can show plenty of new feats that might seriously change his current position in many people's minds.
> 
> Baki and Mifune are alive too and technically can show something new too. IMO, the dead characters are those who should be discussed now.



Partially agreed with this. Take out Gai and replace him with someone else who we know is guaranteed no more feats. Judging by how Kishi skims over characters, we can't expect more from Mifune and Baki, so keep em.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 28, 2012)

Regardless the masters were portrayed to be on the same level, Gai is too low and I am pretty sure every would agree. Except blatant Gai haters/


----------



## Turrin (Aug 28, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Regardless the masters were portrayed to be on the same level, Gai is too low and I am pretty sure every would agree. Except blatant Gai haters/



Personally I don't see a problem with Kakashi being on a high tier than Gai. Gai even admits that Kakashi is typically 1 step ahead of him. So to me it just seems like this is one of those times where Kakashi is indeed a step ahead of Gai. Gai will catch up, but he probably hasn't yet.

Furthermore I'd be more comfortable with Kakashi moving down, rather than Gai moving up. Granted I'm fine with Kakashi's current placement as well, but if people really think the two are the same tier, I think it's more likely that people are overrating Kakashi (myself included, because I said i'd be fine with his current tier placement), coming off one of his better showings in the manga, than they are underrating Gai.




Sferr said:


> Duh, all of these characters shouldn't be discussed now. *Especially* Gai. He is now participating in the main (?) villain battle where he used just 6th Gates for a brief moment. He still has yet to open even 7th Gates, not to mention the 8th. He now can show plenty of new feats that might seriously change his current position in many people's minds.
> 
> Baki and Mifune are alive too and technically can show something new too. IMO, the dead characters are those who should be discussed now.



We're not going to limit discussion to only dead characters. If characters show new feats we can discuss them again. We got all the time in the world. Plus people will be able to see next chapter before the revoting even begins.


----------



## Immortal (Aug 28, 2012)

With hype included in this tier list, I don't understand what Gai could possibly show us. He's not going to use the 8th gate and outshine Naruto in his biggest battle yet - it's just not going to happen. Anything Gai can actually do in the 8th gate on panel won't exceed anyone's wild hopes and aspirations for the character, for many of us it won't even meet them. 

That said, I think he could go up a tier... this section of the list is a cluster fuck. I think it might be easier to discuss three characters from the same tier at the same time Turrin, and it would also be much easier to start from the bottom up - look how easy it was to move Sakon/Ukon.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Aug 28, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Personally I don't see a problem with Kakashi being on a high tier than Gai. Gai even admits that Kakashi is typically 1 step ahead of him. So to me it just seems like this is one of those times where Kakashi is indeed a step ahead of Gai. Gai will catch up, but he probably hasn't yet.


Gai was referring to in terms of intelligence/planning I doubt that was intended to be taken as Kakashi being stronger rather Gai acknowledging his intelligence.

Kakashi and Gai should be in the same tier as they are equals.


----------



## Melodie (Aug 29, 2012)

Gai's current tier seems to be good. Yes, I do know that he's stronger than one or two shinobis there. But since we're considering hype as well, his placement seems to be perfect. [IMO]​


----------



## Turrin (Aug 29, 2012)

Immortal said:


> With hype included in this tier list, I don't understand what Gai could possibly show us. He's not going to use the 8th gate and outshine Naruto in his biggest battle yet - it's just not going to happen. Anything Gai can actually do in the 8th gate on panel won't exceed anyone's wild hopes and aspirations for the character, for many of us it won't even meet them.
> 
> That said, I think he could go up a tier... this section of the list is a cluster fuck. I think it might be easier to discuss three characters from the same tier at the same time Turrin, and it would also be much easier to start from the bottom up - look how easy it was to move Sakon/Ukon.


I initially wanted to discuss the bottom characters first, but tons of people were complaining that it would be too boring and aside from me and wolf prince no one showed all that much interest in the bottom characters. If you want to go from bottom characters up to the top ones, the best thing to do is PM 3 characters from the bottom you wish to discuss. The more people interest the more likely it becomes we'll do those characters.



Thdyingbreed said:


> Gai was referring to in terms of intelligence/planning I doubt that was intended to be taken as Kakashi being stronger rather Gai acknowledging his intelligence.
> 
> Kakashi and Gai should be in the same tier as they are equals.


Gai never said he was just referring to intelligence/planning. But my overall point was simply that I can see an argument being made for Kakashi to be a step ahead of Gai and be in A tier, however that is not to say that I disagree with the argument that they should both be in the same tier (in-fact personally I lean towards that interpretation). What I don't really agree with is the idea of moving Gai into A Tier, only because he is the rival of a character who is currently getting featured heavily in the manga and as a result of which people are prone to overestimating such a character. If Kakashi and Gai were to end up in the same tier, I think it would be much more accurate to move Kakashi to match Gai's placement.


----------



## Jad (Aug 29, 2012)

Gai should be one 100% in Kakashi's tier, he can beat every single character in his tier in my opinion, and he can challenge and beat a few in the tier above him. Bump him up a tier. And please, stop using that rubbish when Gai said "You are leading the scores in matches" as a valid argument. First we know the type of matches they have, it's all around. Second not one person ever spat out Part 1 Gai's statement when he said he had more wins than Kakashi as a valid argument to say he was stronger. They are rivals, Gai and Kakashi are equals. It's the most painfully obvious thing. It's the next best thing to Kishi actually verbally saying it. Kakashi should stay where he is, and you should bump Gai up a tier. Just get the voting up and let's do this.

I swear, Itachi would be saying "_Don't underestimate him_" to you guys if he were real.


----------



## Santoryu (Aug 29, 2012)

Kakashi is overall a better shinobi than Gai, but does that warrant him being a tier above him? Hell no. If that was the case, Kakashi should be placed above almost everyone.

Gai is around Kakashi's level, his feats are very impressive, and easily comparable to most of the current Kages, if not better. Let's keep in mind he still has the final gate in reserve.

Both Kakashi and Gai have come a LONG way, and personally, I believe they are slightly stronger than the Sannin at the moment, or at Jiraiya's level at the very least. It's not just hype, both of them have the feats to back it up, more so in Kakashi's case.



> I think it would be much more accurate to move Kakashi to match Gai's placement.



Yeah, no, because then you would have to move most of that tier down, Kakashi deserves to be in that tier, he is better than most of them 

Move Gai up, nuff said.


----------



## Saturnine (Aug 29, 2012)

In my opinion Minato's too high - he's sure to land a hit, but from what we've seen he's not damaging enough. I mean what can he do when he catches you? Either slash or impale you with a Kunai or Rasengan you, and any character of his tier would be able to tank a Rasengan. "The snake strikes but once against the quick of hand". I suggest he be moved one tier down.

And Edo Madara, I think is way beyond any other character seen so far, he deserves a tier of his own, so he should be moved to S+. Either that, or degrade Current Naruto, since he's clearly got nothing on Madara even as he is now. But moving Madara up would be more fair.


----------



## Sferr (Aug 29, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Personally I don't see a problem with Kakashi being on a high tier than Gai. Gai even admits that Kakashi is typically 1 step ahead of him. So to me it just seems like this is one of those times where Kakashi is indeed a step ahead of Gai. Gai will catch up, but he probably hasn't yet.
> 
> Furthermore I'd be more comfortable with Kakashi moving down, rather than Gai moving up. Granted I'm fine with Kakashi's current placement as well, but if people really think the two are the same tier, I think it's more likely that people are overrating Kakashi (myself included, because I said i'd be fine with his current tier placement), coming off one of his better showings in the manga, than they are underrating Gai.



I don't really see how Kakashi was portrayed higher than Gai. Gai only admits that Kakashi's intelligence is higher than his. But overall Gai even once blatantly said 'I am stronger than Kakashi'. And there were instances when Gai was seen as someone stronger than Kakashi, like when Itachi and Kisame first came into Konoha.

IMO, Gai should be comfortably moved up, he has no place in the tier he belongs now (and not only Gai, there are other that I rate a tier higher than they are written now). 






Turrin said:


> We're not going to limit discussion to only dead characters. If characters show new feats we can discuss them again. We got all the time in the world. Plus people will be able to see next chapter before the revoting even begins.



Never did I say that we should limit discussion to only dead characters. I said that they should be discussed first because the living one can still show something and the should be discussed after. In any case Gai should be discussed much later. Before the last chapter I thought Kakashi belonged rather to A- tier than A tier. And probably even would have voted like that. But now after the last chapter I perfectly agree with his current tier. And I think I am not the only one who changed his opinion on Kakashi like that. The same can happen with Gai.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 29, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I initially wanted to discuss the bottom characters first, but tons of people were complaining that it would be too boring and aside from me and wolf prince no one showed all that much interest in the bottom characters. If you want to go from bottom characters up to the top ones, the best thing to do is PM 3 characters from the bottom you wish to discuss. The more people interest the more likely it becomes we'll do those characters.


I think it would be best if we kept a pattern of two top characters and one bottom character. That way we keep those only interested in the top(the majority) happy while not entirely neglecting the bottom for a long time.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 29, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I think it would be best if we kept a pattern of two top characters and one bottom character. That way we keep those only interested in the top(the majority) happy while not entirely neglecting the bottom for a long time.


I'm just going for the characters who get the most PM's about. But I always try to include at least one lower character.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 30, 2012)

Gai- He can arguably solo most in the A Tier, by portrayal and feats he can give most in the A Tier a hard fought match, even some in the A+. He has impeccable speed, reactions, and power. Along with very destructive Jutsu(Hirudora being deadly because it isn't chakra that can be absorbed.) With feats vs V2 jin and punching Gedo Mazo back with Bee,* Gai is A Tier*

Mifune- He is extremely deadly from Close Range, soloing alot of ninja. He is also basically the Kage of the Land of Iron. That being said he is one dimensional, and would struggle against opponents with good Mid-Long range game/good speed. I think for now he is *good in his tier.*

Baki- Was atleast portrayed to be atleast a tier above Hayate. He acknowledged Hayate for his great technique at a young age but easily ate hayate's Sword and stopped it with wind. Then proceeded to one shot him. Baki to me was portrayed to be pt. 1 Kabuto/Kakashi level. Especially being the jounin of the exceptional Team Gaara. I would place him in the *B- Tier. *


----------



## Rain (Aug 30, 2012)

Why is Naruto above Edo Madara, Bee above Itachi and EMS Madara > Hashirama?


----------



## Eliyua23 (Aug 30, 2012)

People ate grasping at straws with the Gai tier placement, just because me is placed in a different tier doesn't mean that said shinobi is far frm the others strength, just think of it as the A tier which Kakashi is a part of would be 85-94 and while Kakashi would be 85 which is just enough to be placed in that tier, Gai would be 84 and just fall short, Gai admitting Kakashi is one step ahead, Kakashi Kage nomination, overall stature and character portrayal warrants him to be placed in another tier although you coud make an argument for both being in the same tier

I vote

Kakashi in A+ tier and Gai to stay in the A- tier for reasons I stated above.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 30, 2012)

Falkirion said:


> Why is Naruto above Edo Madara, Bee above Itachi and EMS Madara > Hashirama?



This list has obvious bugs, hence why we are working on it. I have no idea why Bee is > Itachi, or why Minato and EMS Madara are > Hashi but we will cross that bridge when we get there.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 30, 2012)

My take on these 3 characters:

*Gai*
I just don't see the feats or hype to place him alongside the shinobi on A - Tier. He's suppose to be Kakashi's rival, but Gai admits that Kakashi is usually a step ahead of him and we have seen that in action. Whether or not Kakashi being a step ahead of Gai means a whole tier or not is something I believe we should discuss when it comes to revising Kakashi, not Gai. 

So *Vote: A- *

*Mifune*
I see no problem with his current placement and I think he meshes well with the characters placed on that Tier.

*Vote: B+* 

*Baki*
Baki was depicted in the manga as one of Suna's Top Jonin, so he seems way to low to me at C tier. Especially since he easily beat Hayate. Though Hayate did damage him, so i'm not sure I'd place him all the way up on B-tier as some people are saying. I think B- Tier makes the most sense for him.

*Vote: B-*




Dr. White said:


> This list has obvious bugs, hence why we are working on it. I have no idea why Bee is > Itachi, or why Minato and EMS Madara are > Hashi but we will cross that bridge when we get there.


No they aren't. They are in the same tier. The order of them being listed in the tiers are meaningless.




Eliyua23 said:


> People ate grasping at straws with the Gai tier placement, just because me is placed in a different tier doesn't mean that said shinobi is far frm the others strength, just think of it as the A tier which Kakashi is a part of would be 85-94 and while Kakashi would be 85 which is just enough to be placed in that tier, Gai would be 84 and just fall short, Gai admitting Kakashi is one step ahead, Kakashi Kage nomination, overall stature and character portrayal warrants him to be placed in another tier although you coud make an argument for both being in the same tier
> 
> I vote
> 
> Kakashi in A+ tier and Gai to stay in the A- tier for reasons I stated above.


One step ahead of him, but your putting him 2 steps ahead of him. Plus not voting on Kakashi right now anyway.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Aug 30, 2012)

Turrin said:


> My take on these 3 characters:
> 
> *Gai*
> I just don't see the feats or hype to place him alongside the shinobi on A - Tier. He's suppose to be Kakashi's rival, but Gai admits that Kakashi is usually a step ahead of him and we have seen that in action. Whether or not Kakashi being a step ahead of Gai means a whole tier or not is something I believe we should discuss when it comes to revising Kakashi, not Gai.
> ...



I meant A tier for Kakashi the tier just above

As for the vote

Mifune power level seems to fall in the line of elite jounin ninja like Konan, Chiyo and Darui but his lack of jutsu keeps him below the tier of low-Kage level ninja like Hebi Sasuke and Kisame.

Mifune B+


To me Baki belongs in the C+ tier as yes he was one of Suna's strongest but one also keep in mind that Suna is the weakest of all the 5 nations, Baki has shown nothing on panel that places him among guys like Dan,Yammato, Chouji who have one unique jutsu that makes them deadly, to me B- seems to be reserved for the talented young shinobi in Narutoverse like Shikamaru, Temari, Suigestu who have way more potential than Baki, To be honest placing him with Anko and Shizune in the C+ tier seems to fit as a guy who is capable but more suited tote role of an advisor but not one to rely on in a major 1 on 1 fight.

Baki C+

As for Gai I previously said for reasons above A- seems just fine for him as I place Kisame, Kakazu, Deidara as the brute force of Atakuski and are around the same level, which seems like what Gai role is for the leaf village.

Gai A-


----------



## Santoryu (Aug 30, 2012)

*Gai*

Vote: A

The Gates just give Gai trememndous power. He practically finished Kisame in a few seconds; keep in mind he still has the final gate in reserve. IMO, both Kakashi and Gai are above any of the current Kages. Not to mention Gai has showcased immense stamina throughout the war, contending with multiple  Sharingan-Rinnegan enhanced V2 Jins/going at it with Tobi etc

In the original Akatasuki, only Nagato, Itachi, and Tobi are stronger, but not by all that much (well tobi is)

Kakashi is overall the better shinobi, but that doesn't warrant him being placed a tier above Gai IMO

And tbh, you could make a decent case for the Masters to be ranked even higher!


----------



## hitokugutsu (Aug 30, 2012)

Turrin said:


> My take on these 3 characters:
> 
> *Gai*
> I just don't see the feats or hype to place him alongside the shinobi on A - Tier. He's suppose to be Kakashi's rival, but Gai admits that Kakashi is usually a step ahead of him and we have seen that in action. Whether or not Kakashi being a step ahead of Gai means a whole tier or not is something I believe we should discuss when it comes to revising Kakashi, not Gai.
> ...



I think this would be the first time in history I agree 100% with a Turrin post..

Either way, since reasoning is needed I;ll just add  the following short analysis

*Gai*
Gai is Kakashi's rival but this does mean they have to be equal (see Konohamaru & Naruto, or Danzo & Hiruzen in the past) I would place Kakashi among current Kages and Gai a bit lower, indeed in the A- tier
The thing with people in the A tier: they are *well versed in every area*, cq. ninjutsus, taijutsu, genjutsu, intelligence etc
Gai is powerfull, but only in one aspect. His ninjutsu, genjutsu an intelligence are lacking to place him that high.
The best example would be Lee vs Gaara. When Lee opened Gates he was pawning shit, but once again it was a simple Suna Bunshin that pretty much crippled Lee (one that Gai also failed to notice). Same thing with Gai vs people vs A tier. They would exploit other areas (nin,gen, intelligence) and defeat him
Gai is powerful at taijutsu, and good at what he does, he simply lacks versatility like Kakashi. The same reason Kakashi was considered for Hokage, while Gai not. 

*Mifune*
B+ is fine I guess. Hard to rank samurai among shinobi though. Though his placement makes sense in that tier

*Baki*
One of Suna's more powerfull Jonin. Suna is the weakes of the 5 villages, but still Baki was portrayed as powerfull, especially since he one-shotted Hayate. Also he was quite active in the invasion of Konoha part and seemed to be doing a decent jon. B-


Overall
Gai: A-
Mifune: B+
Baki: B-


----------



## Santoryu (Aug 30, 2012)

^

Yeah, no, most of Narutoverse pales in comparison in terms of versatility compared to Kakashi.

You say Gai shouldn't be that high because he lacks versatility; then what the hell about the Raikage's? Are they anywhere near as versatile as Kakashi? Hell no they aint. 

Not to mention Gai is pretty skilled in using weapons, I summed up why Gai should be placed there in my .

Do people like to ignore feats or something? Gai's feats in this war are immense, and I've stated this so many times; Gai still has the final gate in reserve!

Yeah, overall Kakashi might be better than him, but that doesn't warrant Kakashi being placed a tier above (Unless he gets another powerup, but Kakashi is strong enough as it is )


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 30, 2012)

As expected, people are making decisions based on hypotheticals. Apparently, Guy can "solo" tons of people based on his "portrayal and feats," which is basically a non-argument and should be removed from the thread. 

But I can't stop people from their task of completely misinterpreting the manga, so I'll just play along.



Guy's tier is fine. In theory, he should be a little lower (with Base Naruto), but I think most people are interpreting an improvement to have taken place of some sort. I support him being where he is (though half the tier is garbage). Kakashi is certainly waaay too fuckin high until some kind of statement indicates an increase.

Mifune needs to be up one (to A-). The hype Hanzou attributed to him -- that ninjutsu is supposedly "useless" against him-- is _immense_. Even when Hanzou was in his prime condition, he thought of Mifune as a worthy opponent. 

Baki needs to be in B-. He dealt with Hayate like a child, and he's clearly an extremely important member of Sunagakure (though as of lately he seems to have disappeared).


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 30, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> As expected, people are making decisions based on hypotheticals. Apparently, Guy can "solo" tons of people based on his "portrayal and feats," which is basically a non-argument and should be removed from the thread.
> 
> But I can't stop people from their task of completely misinterpreting the manga, so I'll just play along.
> 
> ...



lol under you quoting me and arguing "feats and portrayal" isn't a proper judgment factor, yet goes on to write nothing supporting his claims.


----------



## Santoryu (Aug 30, 2012)

> until some kind of statement indicates an increase.



You don't need a explicit statement saying "This guy has gotten a lot stronger since so and so" when it's blatantly obvious.



> "portrayal and feats," which is basically a non-argument


lol


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 30, 2012)

Dr. White said:
			
		

> lol under you quoting me and arguing "feats and portrayal" isn't a proper judgment factor, yet goes on to write nothing supporting his claims.



What I used to support my claims is what the author stated/implied in the manga.

Anything else is horseshit. You want to argue feats and hypothetical battles? Go to the Battledome; *there's a nice tier list thread there*.

Why do you think the Library and the Battledome have different tier list threads?

Turrin, you better be moderating this shit.



			
				Santoryu said:
			
		

> You don't need a explicit statement saying "This guy has gotten a lot stronger since so and so" when it's blatantly obvious.



It doesn't need to be a statement, it just needs to be _something_.

And it's not "blatantly obvious" that Kakashi or Guy have gotten stronger. It's a theory, one that I believe in, but it's certainly not set in stone, and there's certainly no grounds to put Kakashi/Guy anywhere near the current Gokage.



> lol



lol is right. "Feats" are garbage. They do nothing to compare one character to another or dictate a level of strength. "Feats" are what lead people to believe SM Naruto was the fastest character in the series. I've also seen people use "feats" to prove that FRS is one of the fastest attacks and Tendou Pain one of the fastest characters (for dodging it).

And "portrayal" is redundant, because everything we're talking about contributes to a character's portrayal.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 30, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Turrin, you better be moderating this shit.


Again this tier list takes a holistic view so feats do indeed count, but so does what your talking about it. It should all be considered together.


----------



## timmysblood (Aug 30, 2012)

*Gai 

vote A*

IMO Gai has shown a lot of great feats and more versatility then some of the higher characters like Raikge.

He beat one of the strongest Akatsuki single handily , (Kisame) without even going all out and fought with v2 jins and is now fighting Tobi. I consider him to be on Par with the higher tier kages , above Tsunade and Mei but on par with Raikage and Gaara.

Putting him on a lower tier then Kakashi is sin


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 30, 2012)

*Vote: A*

@Turin: One step ahead does not mean they are in different tier. They can still be in the same tier yet Kakashi can still be one step ahead in that tier. Not to mention, since your a fan of character statements, you might want to consider Gai's statement back in part 1 where he claimed to be stronger than Kakashi. 



> *A-*
> Kinkaku
> Ginkaku
> Kakuzu
> ...



Gai can beat everyone in that tier by feats. Like I said before, it does not make sense to have a tier list with Gai and Kakashi in completely different tier when they have been portrayed as equal through the manga. Kakashi is stronger than Gai slightly, just like Hashirama is stronger than Madara. They are rivals for life.


----------



## Empathy (Aug 30, 2012)

Gai belongs in the A- tier. His major nemesis throughout the manga has been Kisame. Kisame without Samehada pushed Gai to his limits, opening up the highest gate that doesn't kill him. He had to resort to his second strongest attack in order to kill his 30% _Shouten_ clone. He definitely hasn't been portrayed as a tier above him, despite ultimately defeating him. Gai was (for all intents and purposes) beaten by Deidara's _Jibaku Bunshin_, which he couldn't have escaped without Kakashi's _Kamui_. He and Deidara are essentially the same character in the regard that they each have two big moves (_Asa Kujaku_ and _Hirudora_ and _C3_ and _C4_, respectively) and one final move that results in their death. I agree that Kakashi and Gai should be in the same tier, but truthfully Kakashi belongs in the A- tier as well. From feats, Gai certainly isn't an entire _tier_ above the likes of Deidara, Kakuzu, Sasori, Tsunade, Gaara, and Kisame.

*Vote:* _A-_


----------



## Ptolemy (Aug 30, 2012)

Beyond my argument of why I don't think this style of tier list is a good idea, there are still several problems with this style of voting. I hate to sound so negative posting criticism all the time, but I just want the whole library tier list to work, and to be accurate. 

My major problems is I'm going to be making my decisions of where a character should be placed relative to where other characters are. If those placements are wrong, or are going to change later, than my vote will be inherently skewed.

To counter this, I think there needs to be at least one of the following:

1) Voting for an entire tier to take place at once
2) A list of characters whose place have been firmly decided
3) A list of characters whose place is going to be discussed

Anyway, if you can't beat them, I guess you should join them. 

Vote - Gai *A Tier*

Gai beat one of the Akatsuki members, who had a large amount of hype 'bjuu without a tale', 'scourge of the hidden mist', ect

This was whilst he was not only fighting him where he had a locational advantage, but also whilst he was not using his strongest known move, the eighth gate, which is hyped to have been able to deal with multiple bjuu bombs. 

His gated style of fighting not only equates to fast movement speed, and deadly close quarters combat, but also long range and large area effect techniques allowing him to deal with a multitude of threats. It's also important to note that he can heal himself to a limited degree, and his gated release has a knockback effect, giving him a pseudo defensive ability. 

I'll edit in Baki & Mifune later.


----------



## Sferr (Aug 30, 2012)

Gai really shouldn't be discussed now as he is participating in a battle now, nobody should really, but whatever.

Gai telling Kakashi about him being one step ahead of him was encouraging him to proceed the battle and was more about his superior intelligence than the overall power. If it is taken seriously than what about Gai's statement that he is stronger than Kakashi? Or about the fact that Itachi ran away when Gai came back then? Why it should be ignored then? Gai has defeated one of the strongest Akatsuki members while trying to prevent the scroll to get away and fighting in the opponent's turf. He is now facing Tobi and has fought against multiple V2 Jinchuuriki and a bijuu. He was made absent from the Pain fight for a reason. And while both Raikages are in A tier, statements about versality shouldn't be made because he is more versatile than both of them, maybe even combined. Gai and Kakashi being in different tiers is a joke, they were portrayed in the manga as rivals and equals and before the second last chapter I even considered Gai to be stronger.

Gai should be in *A *tier, he has no place being in A-. Thought he shouldn't be a tier higher than Deidara, Kisame, Sasori and Gaara but that is because they are not in their tier as well.

Mifune:
He defeated Hanzo and is basically the strongest samurai. That being said, fighting with just a sword doesn't make him really competitive even in A-. Being where he is is fine.

Vote: *B+*

Baki:
Having almost no feats, he was portrayed as one of the strongest jounins of Suna. Suna sucks thought so it doesn't really matter. But he should be stronger than Hayate as he defeated him rather easily as I recall.

Vote: *C+* probably is ok for him.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 30, 2012)

_Gai_

Hes good where hes at. By feats the majority of the tier can beat him and several of them have been portrayed as stronger(the kages that are in the tier, Sasori, Shisui). He beat Kisame though Kisame was without Samehada and it took his strongest technique to do so(one that leaves him barely able to move afterwards, double edged swords have always made me view a characters strength lower). The eight gate is not something that I include as part of his general power level, as it kills him(I don't include suicidal jutsus into someones power in general). Its Kakashi that needs to be moved down, not Gai up.

That tier is in dire need of revision really.

*Vote: A-*

_Mifune_

His speed feats are incredible though he is lacking in ranged options, though most battles in the manga usually begin at a range where he could keep most anybody from performing ninjutsu against him. From a portrayal standpoint, it seems a bit wrong to have Mifune be two tiers below prime Hanzo(and I personally would put prime Hanzo a tier above where he is now) as prime Hanzo regarded a young Mifune's strength with respect and Mifune would have only improved since then.

*Vote: A-*

_Baki_

The guy easily defeated a leaf Jonin in Hayate and has a high rank in Suna. Hes what is normally called an elite Jonin, which is what I'd consider guys like Zabuza and Asuma, so thats where he should be.

*Vote: B*


----------



## Santoryu (Aug 30, 2012)

Kakashi is on par, if not stronger than most of the characters in his current tier; moving him down would be absurd, not only would it create a huge shitstorm, it would mean moving most of those characters (currently in tier A) down. If anything, you could make a case for moving Kakashi higher up 



Moving Gai up is the only logical choice, guys, it's now* 2012*, the manga has moved on. 

Gai really is that strong, as evidenced by the manga.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 30, 2012)

Gai shouldn't be a tier above Deidara, Sasori, Hebi Sasuke, or Kisame, as he is very powerful, but not versatile. He certainly should be a tier above some of the people in the A- tier with his feats though... it's just a messy tier. However, because I don't believe Gai is the most worthy for promotion in the A- tier, I'm not going to vote for the boost prematurely to further wreak havoc on the tier list.  

*Vote: A-*

Mifune is tricky. Hanzō respected him, but Hanzō's hype and Hanzō's feats are worlds apart. Jiriaya didn't think any one man could possibly defeat Hanzō, but Mifune did, albeit because his poison resistance matched up well. On the other hand, in the Battledome, where we analyze known data, Hanzō shouldn't even be in the A- tier. Similarly though, I just don't think Mifune is the best ninja in his tier, so I'm not going to promote him first.

*Vote: B+*

Baki was a Jōnin of Sunagakure, but nothing really indicates that he'd last two chapters against Kakashi, Zabuza, or Asuma who were noted to be exceedingly famous Jōnin. He beat Hayate, but ultimately, so what? Several ninja in that tier would beat Hayate, if not rape him, based on known information from his feats and the databook. And like all my previous decisions, I'm not going to boost an individual's standings if he isn't the best in his current tier. I think that's a fair and orderly precedent for this process...

*Vote: C*​


----------



## Kanki (Aug 30, 2012)

I think Baki has been represented as being stronger than you're average jounin. He totally raped Hayate, who was also a Jounin. Added to the fact that he seems to be the lead Jounin of Suna, or at least that's the way I've always seen it. I think he should be C + at the very least, assuming Asuma and Zabuza are C.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 30, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> In support of this, we can see that Baki lacked the fame to be resurrected by Kabuto, because he just wasn't that special.


Baki died? This is news to me


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 30, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Baki died? This is news to me



You're right! How embarrassing. ​


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 30, 2012)

I'd think his fear of CE Gaara would be due to the possibility of him going full Shukaku like he had once in the past.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 30, 2012)

Kakashi Is God said:


> I think Baki has been represented as being stronger than you're average jounin. He totally raped Hayate, who was also a Jounin.



Hayate was a Tokubetsu Jōnin, and he also seemed to have health issues. Hayate's statistics certainly don't put him anywhere near Asuma though. He looks to be closer to the rookies in ability.​


Kakashi Is God said:


> Added to the fact that he seems to be the lead Jounin of Suna, or at least that's the way I've always seen it. I think he should be C + at the very least, assuming Asuma and Zabuza are C.



I think he takes a big backseat to Kankurō and Temari at this point.​


WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I'd think his fear of CE Gaara would be due to the possibility of him going full Shukaku like he had once in the past.



Also a good point.​


----------



## Vice (Aug 30, 2012)

There is absolutely no way that Baki is above Asuma or Zabuza. None.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 30, 2012)

Vice said:


> There is absolutely no way that Baki is above Asuma or Zabuza. None.


No one is saying that he is above them and the only one saying he should be on the same tier is me, as I feel he has been portrayed as an elite Jonin, due to his position in Suna and him easily handling Hayate, a Jonin.

Strategos, I saw that post before you edited it


----------



## Vice (Aug 30, 2012)

Kakashi Is God said:


> I think Baki has been represented as being stronger than you're average jounin. He totally raped Hayate, who was also a Jounin. Added to the fact that he seems to be the lead Jounin of Suna, or at least that's the way I've always seen it. I think he should be C + at the very least, assuming Asuma and Zabuza are C.



This guy said he should be.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 30, 2012)

I missed that, as I skimmed that post.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 30, 2012)

Gai is fine at A-. Gai's biggest foe, as already mentioned, is Kisame (who he had a hard time beating when Kisame was not at full power), while his rival is Kakashi. It stands to reason that he is around their level. Defeating Kisame twice and being useful support against Tobi puts him in the A- tier. He would have been killed by Deidara's clone without Kakashi, and we were told he would be a liability against Pein, so I certainly don't see him as A tier. 

Mifune is difficult to judge given his lack of panel time and overall relevance to the story. I ranked him in B+ tier myself, though I might be biased because of how little I have seen on him. A- is far from impossible, though his fighting style might just be too one dimensional. He took down Hanzo who had lost his faith, Hanzo really respected him (and Hanzo is seriously underrated), and it is said that Ninjutsu is useless against him. I can easily see how someone would say A-, but right now I'll go with B+. 

Baki is a prominent Jonin who fodderized another Jonin. I would rank him around B or B-. His Databook score of 29.5 is also fairly high. I'll give him a B.


I would have kept Gai off the list for now. He has a lot of fans and could easily get more feats and statements about him, which may change the way people look at him. I would save Itachi, Minato, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Tsunade, Madara, Tobi, BM Naruto, Onoki, and EMS Sasuke for a while. The first three because of their huge fan bases, the other seven because there is a high probability of them getting more feats (and because a few of them have huge fan bases).


----------



## tsunadefan (Aug 30, 2012)

Ok, what should I say. First off, I do not really agree with some of the characters placement on the list. Also, second, are the characters in order under each list? Ok, on to the placements. I feel that Mifune and Gai should be A- and that Baki should be moved from C to B. I see B as a jounin level, and as a poster said, he defeated hayate, a ninja who is seen as a jounin himself. My reasons of where these 3 characters should be placed are influenced by others positions on the list.


----------



## Melodie (Aug 30, 2012)

_Gai_

His placement in the tier is pretty good. By portrayal he's below most of the shinobis that are in the list, and by feats he is just above _few_. Yes, I do think that he would be above them when he uses the eighth gate, but that ability should be excluded as it's suicidal. Moving on, The fact that he had to resort to one of his strongest techniques against Kisame who had just 30% of his strength says that he's certainly not a 'tier' above Kisame [Gai had to use everything he could, just to beat Kisame who didn't have samehada], or any shinobi in that list. 

*A-*​
_Baki_

He's one of the higher-ups when it comes to the sand village, and did defeat Hayate pretty easily. But what should be considered is that the sand village is considered to be the weakest village between the five great nations. That being said, he should be a tier above, as he did beat Hayate quite easily [they shouldn't be in the same tier].

*C+*​


----------



## Jad (Aug 31, 2012)

*Gai* - *Absolutely move him up a Tier, to A spot*. He can arguable beat every single person on the current tier he is on.

*Kinkaku*: Not enough feats to suggest he can beat Gai. Gai has already gone up against the real jins and in numbers too. And was portrayed to be fighting a fully transformed Rokubi. Plus he was never hit by any of the Jins because if he was, he'd be severely injured. But at the end of the day, if he was hit by a Jin successfully, that just proves he has massive durability. Yes I think Gai can beat him, because the lack of Jinchurikii will probably mean no self-healing, but that is up for debate. But as of feats, it looks like it's a no.
*Ginkaku*: Same as above.
*Kakuzu*: Again, I do believe Gai can beat him in all his stages (Masks out, in, some out). The toughest is the _Dotonomu_, but he doesn't actually always resort to it, like have it out on the field at play, considering we never once saw him use it in the war, or longer than a few seconds in the manga. Plus I believe one Morning  Peacock is enough considering he seemed to lunge over when he got hit by Chouji's _Meat Ball Tank_. Plus the Ino-Shika-Cho clan were dodging his ability quite well, and Kakashi was keeping up pretty good too. Base Gai is faster then Kakashi, and much faster than the trio, so he shouldn't have too much problems. Gates are needed, don't get me wrong.
*Hebi Sasuke*: Genjutsu isn't really part of his arsenal, but at the same time it probably isn't up to par with what Gai is used to. Again, I don't believe he is fast enough to catch Gai at base. OR Durable enough to not to have to resort to Oral Birth if he gets hit once. Considering Gai's base strength can shatter boulders. Hard match only because that Genjutsu could catch him most likely. But I mean, when has he ever put someone of Gai's caliber in Genjutsu, than beat them up. It's probably just used as a distraction when he uses it at his level.
*Deidara*: A bit tricker, but Gai can reach him in the sky, and I mean he never goes flying so high that no one can catch him. At the same time, _Morning Peaock's_ embers would blow up his Clay Bird. Plus he was blindsided by Sai at the end of his Edo-Tensei bout, so that kind of 'de-hypes' his speed/reaction. I really do believe he can beat Deidara, considering Gai's strength, AOE techniques, and speed. It'd be very hard to catch him considering Hebi Sasuke dodged being hit for so long. Plus knowing Gai, if he knows he has no options, he will resort to whatever is necessary to end the match.
*Yondaime Kazekage*: Same as below.
*Sandaime Kazekage*: Not enough feats, all Gai has to do is get around the iron sand which shouldn't be too difficult once he opens a few gates.
*Uchiha Shisui*: Not enough feats. If we take into account his eye power though, he should be above everyone...
*Mei Terumei*: I have discussed this, even her fans think she loses to Gai. Plus if she is threatened of her safety or well being, at the moment, she'd just give up.
*Sasori*: Has been discussed, look at the past Sasori/Gai vs thread, overwhelming response in favor of Gai and I agree, the massive AOE techniques he has is just the bane of Sasori. Plus an exceedingly faster Gai, should be able to parry and dodge a multitude of Sasori's techniques, through the use of speed and nunchaku. I mean he did block Tobi's Kunai's/Shurikens.
*Tsunade*: I have pretty much shat out my thoughts on this. At the end of the day tl;tr. Either knocked out, instantly dead, or too much to regenerate from.
*Kisame*: Has been done in the manga, Samehada won't change a thing. Plus, even before knowledge, Gai tried to get rid of Samehada, with knowledge, he'll know to get rid/toss it out, and smite Kisame. But again, Kisamehada form won't change a thing, he needs a multitude of extra Bijuu Chakara. Just bad match up for Gai is all.
*Gaara*: Same as Sandime Kazekage, just harder. In the Desert, for sure, out in the open, I don't believe he will have the time to grind sand without Gai's base strength knocking down his sand defense. Opening the Gates will allow him to by pass it.
*Hiruzen (old)*: Not enough in his arsenal to take out Gai, if his feats in Part 1 were inflated, and Kishimoto re-done it in Part 2. This guy would be near top tier, but just the way the manga in Part 1 was set out, not enough. I mean even Itachi got tired and had to rest for a day (or less) when he used Ameratsu in part 1. Than in Part 2 he could use a multitude of his MS arsenal.
*Might Gai*: He beat his clone  Done in the manga.

Gai is always, always portrayed to be on Kakashi's tier, I mean come on, do you want Kishimoto to scream it. He can arguable beat Oonoki, considering the responses in the thread I made, Tobirama what feats does he have. What feats put him above Kisame in the suiton department. Yondaime Raikage, he'd beat, I do believe at V1 speed, Gai is his equal at Base. Opening the Gates, Gai has that constant speed above Ei, only until he temporarily opens V2, but he can only move in short bursts and distances. Plus his Lightining armour will be turned off if met with brute force, Bee done it soo many times at base. On top of that, Ameratsu was able to by pass the armour in one move, while it couldn't even melt through the Samruai's armour for a considerably long time. So his armour won't stop him from being set on fire, which pretty much ends the match if there is no water source. Same with Sandaime Raikage, infact I don't believe he has a V2, but he trades that off for increased durability. But enough hits should lower his performance, but again, it's the fire around him that will be the king of all the hits. Very close, the Raikages are tough, they do have shots at beating Gai as well. Not one sided at all. Far from it. If you are fast enough, Hanzou shouldn't be too much of a problem, besides the poison in his belly. With knowledge, he can beat Nidaime Mizukage. Without it, he'd have a tough time dodging surprise attacks, but I mean Gai has eyes at the back of his head, he blocked a shot from behind by Tobi. Toss up. Danzou shouldn't be that fast to always get the jump on Gai, and 10 minutes in Gates for Gai should be more than enough considering his performance in the war. Everyone else should be a tough fight, but he will lose more times than not.

Just consider his performance in the war for goodness sakes. Going up against multiple Jins, knocking Gedomazo off his footing, fighting on par with Tobi in a CQC clash. Not even getting a successful hit on him other than ONCE, by Kisame, who forced him into an inescapable position. Gai has been hit ONCE people, and he is a semi-main cast of Naruto. Give it up for Gai. His fast, strong (I forgot to mention he overpowered the coral on RM Naruto's back that even he couldn't break), has gates, is knowledgeable when fighting (not socially intelligent) even given Naruto tips, has weapon usage feats and can predict enemy movements from their feet alone.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 31, 2012)

I'm not going to bother trying to argue against all your hypothetical reasons for why Gai beats all those people that are stronger than him, as its rather easier to just point out that the majority of those characters are portrayed as above Gai's level, being either kages(the third kazekage being regarded as the strongest kazekage), someone who beat the strongest kazekage then added him to his arsenal while making his strongest ability even more powerful by adding poison(Sasori) and someone who at only 30% of his power took out team Gai and base Gai, forcing Gai to activate the sixth gate(Kisame). It took the seventh gate for Gai to beat a Kisame that was without his strongest weapon. There is no way that Gai can be a tier above Kisame when they were portrayed as rivals, with Gai being somewhat of a bad match-up for Kisame due to Gai specializing in taijutsu whereas Kisame's specialty is absorbing ninjutsu. Yes Kakashi is also Gai's rival and a tier above him currently though Kakashi can be moved down instead of Gai up.


----------



## Jad (Aug 31, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I'm not going to bother trying to argue against all your hypothetical reasons for why Gai beats all those people that are stronger than him, as its rather easier to just point out that the majority of those characters are portrayed as above Gai's level, being either kages(the third kazekage being regarded as the strongest kazekage), someone who beat the strongest kazekage then added him to his arsenal while making his strongest ability even more powerful by adding poison(Sasori) and someone who at only 30% of his power took out team Gai and base Gai, forcing Gai to activate the sixth gate(Kisame). It took the seventh gate for Gai to beat a Kisame that was without his strongest weapon. There is no way that Gai can be a tier above Kisame when they were portrayed as rivals, with Gai being somewhat of a bad match-up for Kisame due to Gai specializing in ninjutsu whereas Kisame's specialty is absorbing ninjutsu. Yes Kakashi is also Gai's rival and a tier above him currently though Kakashi can be moved down instead of Gai up.



Yeah, and he still got beat by an Old Lady, Sakura, than after blind sided by Sai. I mean, Gedomazou decimated his surroundings, his mere presence blew Choza and Chouji, easily overpowered Mountain Sandwhich. Yet here, Gai attacks his pink toe, and makes the big man start falling. I believe Gai is being portrayed as fighting the creme of the crop.

So Gai being forced to use the 6th Gate momentarily (which does jack shit to him), for a few seconds, to get out of a situation where he was under water, with sharks chasing him, and as a user of Taijutsu, is suppose to be used as an arguement to make him look bad. Gai beat Kisame, 30% or not, in one move. Using gates shouldn't be an excuse to make Gai look bad, it's just part of his arsenal, it's like making Orochimaru look bad for using ninjutsu, or Kakashi looking bad because he had to resort to Raikiri. It's just part of the trade off, using Gates doesn't even affect him outside of the 7th. Last time I remember, Gai was the ONLY ONE EVER to catch an Akatsuki. Seriously, he didn't kill one, he CAUGHT one. Plus he resorted to the 7th Gate, not because of Kisame, he used it because the message hidden in the Sharks were leaving the island. He even explained it. "Try to Box in the Sharks". He was left with no other choice BUT to use Hirudora.

Gai using the 6th Gate, does less than Kakashi using a Kage Bunshin and wasting a good chunk of his Chakara. How's that. Want to start saying Kakashi is shit for RESORTING to Kage Bunshin. Give me a break.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 31, 2012)

I agree with Jad as everyone in that tier can be beat by Gai minus Sasori.(who me and several other posters have pointed out is in need of a tier change), Gai is experienced enough to be on par with the A tier.

Also vs Sasori, Gai is fast enough to simply bypass his puppets and hit the puppet user. Sakura was able to dodge being fatally struck by iron bars and blitzed the Kage puppet. Gai severly outclasses her in speed even with Chiyo's help, puppets are not good with fire either, and Asu is very deadly technique as well as Hiruduro which Sasori cannot afford to take. On the flip side on ounce of poison and Gai is done, he would most likely realize this though and open 8th gate making the match a tie.


----------



## Empathy (Aug 31, 2012)

Santoryu said:


> Kakashi is on par, if not stronger than most of the characters in his current tier; moving him down would be absurd, not only would it create a huge shitstorm, it would mean moving most of those characters (currently in tier A) down. If anything, you could make a case for moving Kakashi higher up
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's 2012 and the manga has moved on? What? Has Gai received a power boost since his fight with Kisame that warrants he would no longer need to bring out his strongest move to beat Kisame without Samehada? What has Gai shown that puts him in another _league_ above Kisame, who was obviously portrayed to be Gai's major opponent. If anything, Gai _obviously_ being on Kisame's level and Kakashi being Gai's equal, power-scales Kakashi down to the A- tier. But you're saying it makes more sense for Kakashi to be on par with Itachi and Pain than it does for Kakashi to be on the level of Kisame? Kakashi is not one, but almost two leagues ahead of Gai's main opponent throughout the manga? 

Kakashi and Itachi are roughly even in base, but Itachi has three deadly Mangekyou techniques to Kakashi's one, and Itachi is always going to push the Mangekyou button faster than Kakashi. Pain canonically killed Kakashi. He can wipe out a village, erase a mountain range, or summon the _Gedo_ statue. Kakashi is not operating on or even close to their level. Sakumo and prime Hanzo are stronger than all of the Sannin by hype. Kakashi isn't above them. Tobirama is also above Kakashi by hype. Muu had the upper-hand against both Onoki and Gaara. The Nidaime Mizukage tied with Muu. Naruto implied that his strongest attack was required to beat the Sandaime Raikage. 

The Yondaime is Raikage is too fast in version two for literally anything Kakashi has to offer, including _Kamui_; given that he dodged _Amaterasu_, which like _Kamui_, merely requires that the user look at the target to initiate the attack. Onoki beat _Susanoo_ over twenty-five times. _Kamui_ is the only thing that can threaten Onoki, but Onoki opens with jinton as part of his rudimentary arsenal. Kakashi is far more liable to fall to jinton than he is to resort to _Kamui_. Jiraiya is above Kakashi by portrayal. He would've beaten Pain with Kakashi's knowledge, by his own admission. _Sennin_ Naruto is above Kakashi by hype, power-scaling, and portrayal. His performance against Pain relative to Kakashi's showcases the disparity in strength. Kakashi was forced to warp Sasuke's _Susanoo_ arrow. 

Sasuke can fire far more arrows than Kakashi can use _Kamui_ (but Kakashi's almost a league above him, yeah). He also can't counter _Amaterasu_ and Sasuke will resort to the Mangekyou far faster than Kakashi will. Danzo surely would've beaten Sasuke one-on-one. He's the only person who can use _Kotoamatsukami_ consecutively, which should actually push him closer to the A+ tier. _Kamui_ is the only thing keeping Kakashi in the game with the people in his tier, but he's far more likely to fall to their more rudimentary arsenals before he resorts to it, like with the Sandaime Raikage, Onoki, _Sennin_ Naruto, Jiraiya, Orochimaru etc. You're falling for the trap that Kakashi is stronger than anyone he can _Kamui_, which can threaten people up to the S- and S tier. But Kakashi only resorts to _Kamui_ out of necessity when he's forced to.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 31, 2012)

Empathy said:


> It's 2012 and the manga has moved on? What? Has Gai received a power boost since his fight with Kisame that warrants he would no longer need to bring out his strongest move to beat Kisame without Samehada? What has Gai shown that puts him in another _league_ above Kisame, who was obviously portrayed to be Gai's major opponent. If anything, Gai _obviously_ being on Kisame's level and Kakashi being Gai's equal, power-scales Kakashi down to the A- tier. But you're saying it makes more sense for Kakashi to be on par with Itachi and Pain than it does for Kakashi to be on the level of Kisame? Kakashi is not one, but almost two leagues ahead of Gai's main opponent throughout the manga?
> 
> Kakashi and Itachi are roughly even in base, but Itachi has three deadly Mangekyou techniques to Kakashi's one, and Itachi is always going to push the Mangekyou button faster than Kakashi. Pain canonically killed Kakashi. He can wipe out a village, erase a mountain range, or summon the _Gedo_ statue. Kakashi is not operating on or even close to their level. Sakumo and prime Hanzo are stronger than all of the Sannin by hype. Kakashi isn't above them. Tobirama is also above Kakashi by hype. Muu had the upper-hand against both Onoki and Gaara. The Nidaime Mizukage tied with Muu. Naruto implied that his strongest attack was required to beat the Sandaime Raikage.
> 
> ...



Gai can beat most people in the A- Tier, and can give everyone up to Orchimaru a fight in the A Tier. Kakashi Belongs in the A Tier because of how much he increased his chakra pool and the use of 4 Kamui so far in a battle. With the ability to make Paralyzing Clones whilst hiding underground, and then strike with Kamui 3 times before his last shot, Kakashi is doing big things my friend. Especially since he warped BM Naruto Clone who was attacking Tobi before Tobi with Rinnengan and Sharingan + the same technique saw.


----------



## Empathy (Aug 31, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Gai can beat most people in the A- Tier, and can give everyone up to Orchimaru a fight in the A Tier.



I'll get to Jad's reasoning later.



> Kakashi Belongs in the A Tier because of how much he increased his chakra pool and the use of 4 Kamui so far in a battle. With the ability to make Paralyzing Clones whilst hiding underground, and then strike with Kamui 3 times before his last shot, Kakashi is doing big things my friend. Especially since he warped BM Naruto Clone who was attacking Tobi before Tobi with Rinnengan and Sharingan + the same technique saw.



Being able to use _Kamui_ four times before collapsing is redundant when one is almost always enough to settle things. His increase in chakra pool is arguable, but shouldn't transcend Gai's tier (who's on the level of Kisame). Kakashi has been able to use _Raiton Kage Bunshins_, go underground, and use _Kamui_ thrice for the longest time now, so that's nothing new. The speed which he can warp things is also a negligible attribute almost, and arguably nothing new (considering the speed he warped Sasuke's supersonic arrow and _Kamui's_ speed here). Tobi did notice _Kamui_. His remarks concerning _Kamui_ prove it. He just fell for an inadvertent feint, as it looked like the stake had popped the bunshin first. Kakashi has obviously been portrayed below the level of SM Naruto or MS Sasuke.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 31, 2012)

Empathy said:


> I'll get to Jad's reasoning later.
> 
> 
> 
> Being able to use _Kamui_ four times before collapsing is redundant when one is almost always enough to settle things. His increase in chakra pool is arguable, but shouldn't transcend Gai's tier (who's on the level of Kisame). Kakashi has been able to use _Raiton Kage Bunshins_, go underground, and use _Kamui_ thrice for the longest time now, so that's nothing new. The speed which he can warp things is also a negligible attribute almost, and arguably nothing new (considering the speed he warped Sasuke's supersonic arrow and _Kamui's_ speed here). It's not that Tobi didn't notice _Kamui_. He did. His remarks concerning _Kamui_ prove it. He fell for an inadvertent feint, as it looked like the stake popped the bunshin first.



-His limit before was 2 now it is 4. Not to mention he used alot of chakra fighting the 7 swordsman, then went on to fight V2 Jins and now Tobi. His chakra has substantially increased
-His limit at 4 now means he can use it to defend against many attack as well as offense. He essentially has 2 for defense and 2 for offense, if he can't get it done with 1 he will think of a new plan to get it done. His war feats showed him warping fast things is consistent and can be done nigh instantly, as well as the range of which he can kamui things(gedo's neck, but it was stoped by Tobi)


----------



## Empathy (Aug 31, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> -His limit before was 2 now it is 4. Not to mention he used alot of chakra fighting the 7 swordsman, then went on to fight V2 Jins and now Tobi. His chakra has substantially increased
> -His limit at 4 now means he can use it to defend against many attack as well as offense. He essentially has 2 for defense and 2 for offense, if he can't get it done with 1 he will think of a new plan to get it done. His war feats showed him warping fast things is consistent and can be done nigh instantly, as well as the range of which he can kamui things(gedo's neck, but it was stoped by Tobi)



The most he used before the war arc was three. One. Two. Three. He never expressed a limit. He used it three times and collapsed a while later. He used four and collapsed immediately; so it's actually fitting, given his aptitude with the jutsu now relative to then. His previous battle with the seven swordsman shouldn't be counted. His wounds from his previous battle are gone and he was shown to have medics in his team, so it would be rather selective to exclude his chakra expenditure. Again, one is enough to settle things almost always. He's only needed to use four against Tobi because he has such a convenient counter. Kakashi has only used _Kamui_ when it's necessary. _Kamui's_ range was never really fully explored either. If anything, the fact that he needed the Hachibi's lift to get in range detracts to that. Kakashi's fighting a battle where losing means the end of the world, so he's going all-out without concern for the ramifications of tomorrow (for there may be no tomorrow). That should have no bearing on his previous reluctance to only use it only when forced to.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 31, 2012)

Empathy said:


> The most he used before the war arc was three. One. Two. Three. He never expressed a limit. He used it three times and collapsed a while later. He used four and collapsed immediately; so it's actually fitting, given his aptitude with the jutsu now relative to then. His previous battle with the seven swordsman shouldn't be counted. His wounds from his previous battle are gone and he was shown to have medics in his team, so it would be rather selective to exclude his chakra expenditure. Again, one is enough to settle things almost always. He's only needed to use four against Tobi because he has such a convenient counter. Kakashi has only used _Kamui_ when it's necessary. _Kamui's_ range was never really fully explored either. If anything, the fact that he needed the Hachibi's lift to get in range detracts to that. Kakashi's fighting a battle where losing means the end of the world, so he's going all-out without concern for the ramifications of tomorrow (for there may be no tomorrow). That should have no bearing on his previous reluctance to only use it when forced to.



-I'm pretty sure that first Kamui and the second you provided were the same one just over an extended period(Kakashi was obviously not as efficient with it here.)then his second was warping the blast. The fact that he collapsed after two/three(whatever it was)that was clearly his limit. Also in the Fight vs Pain Kakashi was only able to use Kamui twice, and the second one killed him.

How do we not count his chakra usage during fights? After the first day Neji was so tired he could not use his Byakugan. Kakashi used Sharingan, Raikiri, and Rikiri Variants against the Swordsman all which are taxing. Then proceeded to go on and fight V2 Jin. During tha fight he used Shadow clone, Raikiri, Raiden, Raikiri Flow, all while using the Sharingan still. Then he went on to contuinly use the sharingan against tobi along with rikiri Kunai, and 4 Kamui, and all this was in the same day. Even if he was healed(which is debatable since he rushed toNaruto)he didn't gain any chakra boost to fight both those battles in the same day. To top that he standing this chapter with sharingan active, Kakashi has obviously grown in chakra.


----------



## Empathy (Aug 31, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> -I'm pretty sure that first Kamui and the second you provided were the same one just over an extended period(Kakashi was obviously not as efficient with it here.)then his second was warping the blast. The fact that he collapsed after two/three(whatever it was)that was clearly his limit. Also in the Fight vs Pain Kakashi was only able to use Kamui twice, and the second one killed him.



They're different. The first one is on his left shoulder, the second one is on his right arm. It's pretty clear if you look at it. He used three and collapsed much later in the day relative to using four and collapsing immediately. He's pushing himself. Nothing suggests he couldn't have done another one and been left in a similar state as he is now.   



> How do we not count his chakra usage during fights? After the first day Neji was so tired he could not use his Byakugan. Kakashi used Sharingan, Raikiri, and Rikiri Variants against the Swordsman all which are taxing. Then proceeded to go on and fight V2 Jin. During tha fight he used Shadow clone, Raikiri, Raiden, Raikiri Flow, all while using the Sharingan still. Then he went on to contuinly use the sharingan against tobi along with rikiri Kunai, and 4 Kamui, and all this was in the same day. Even if he was healed(which is debatable since he rushed toNaruto)he didn't gain any chakra boost to fight both those battles in the same day. To top that he standing this chapter with sharingan active, Kakashi has obviously grown in chakra.



Because his wounds are gone so he's obviously been healed. Healing consists of chakra replenishment as well as healing injuries. Neji is Neji. He serves no relevance to the discussion at hand. I don't even know why you're mentioning him. Using the Sharingan hasn't been taxing to Kakashi in a long time, same goes for using _Raikiri_. It almost seems like splitting hairs mentioning them. Kakashi has only had stamina problems in Part II when _Kamui_ is concerned. He used _Raiden_ twice and _Raikiri_ twice in addition to his usage of _Kamui_, if I recall correctly. His previous dying can just be attributed to his injuries accumulated as well as his previous chakra expenditure; or just an inconsistency. 

Kakashi has not received an official stamina increase. Ever. He received a 3.5 in stamina in every databook, despite the feat disparity. The reason I have trouble acknowledging a stamina increase is because there has been no reason given for that improvement. The author has always given a reason for a character growing stronger. There has been none given for Kakashi and his stamina has never officially increased before (ever). Kakashi hasn't undergone some special training that would double, triple, or quadruple his stamina. Whatever subjective disparity there is can just be attributed to further tolerance of the Mangekyou Sharingan; or inconsistency again, because Kakashi is pushing himself.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 31, 2012)

Ok I am not gonna argue fact of the matter in one day Kakashi has used
-Close to ten Raikiri/Raikiri Variants
-Kage Bushin
-Sharingan vs Various High/Top Tiers(which no matter what you say taxes him this is *manga fact* he isn't an uchiha so his body requires moe chakra 1 2
-4 Kamui's a new precedent
-Kakashi is still up and going(albeit extremely tired) and will need to use *atleast* 1 more to help defeat Tobi.

Also I don't buy healing someone gives them any *significant* amount of chakra boost.


----------



## Empathy (Aug 31, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Ok I am not gonna argue fact of the matter in one day Kakashi has used
> -Close to ten Raikiri/Raikiri Variants



Six by my count. 



> -Kage Bushin



Two actually. 



> -Sharingan vs Various High/Top Tiers(which no matter what you say taxes him this is *manga fact* he isn't an uchiha so his body requires moe chakra 1 2



In the first scan he says, "_that Sharingan_." He's denoting the Mangekyou Sharingan. Just using the Sharingan in general hasn't bothered Kakashi in the longest of times. Since he's never received an official stamina boost, that can just be attributed to further tolerance of the Sharingan.



> -4 Kamui's a new precedent



A fitting one, given his previous precedent. 



> -Kakashi is still up and going(albeit extremely tired) and will need to use *atleast* 1 more to help defeat Tobi.



Are you perhaps a prophet?



> Also I don't buy healing someone gives them any *significant* amount of chakra boost.



[_Link_]

[_Link_]

[_Link_]


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 31, 2012)

Empathy said:


> Six by my count.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



-Those are all instances of Tsunade using her special Senju seal to heal/replenish Onooki and Co. This case is different as we know Senju DNA(which she inherited)gives chakra boost. No other healer as such powers due to lack of Yin forehead seal, and Yang Gentics/Byokugan. No other healer can give such significant chakra boost. Neji was near death and came back in serious but stable condition after being healed,same with chouji. The fact that Kakashi gets healed and has to spend days in bed also speaks to this fact. We have never seen Sakura or Shizune for that matter give such chakra bost, both of which are exemplary healers.


----------



## Santoryu (Aug 31, 2012)

Empathy said:


> It's 2012 and the manga has moved on? What? Has Gai received a power boost since his fight with Kisame that warrants he would no longer need to bring out his strongest move to beat Kisame without Samehada?



This is incorrect, Kishimoto has implied the final gate is Gai's most powerful move, not the one he used to take out Kisame. Strongest attack shown? Yes. But it doesn't matter if Gai recieved a huge power boost or not since then, he has the feats and hype.



> What has Gai shown that puts him in another _league_ above Kisame, who was obviously portrayed to be Gai's major opponent.


Who cares if Kisame was potrayed to be Gai's major opponent? Gai spanked him what, three times?

In this war Gai was contending with multiple Sharingan-Rinnegan enhanced V2 Jins. Kakashi has gotten stronge throughout the series, it wouldn't make sense if Gai also didn't; sadly he hasn't had as much screen time, but why does it matter? His feats are very impressive.

He was going at it with Tobi etc



> If anything, Gai _obviously_ being on Kisame's level and Kakashi being Gai's equal, power-scales Kakashi down to the A- tier.



Gai isn't Kisame's equal though, he is stronger, as evidenced by the manga. 



> But you're saying it makes more sense for Kakashi to be on par with Itachi and Pain than it does for Kakashi to be on the level of Kisame? Kakashi is not one, but almost two leagues ahead of Gai's main opponent throughout the manga?



A better case for moving Kakashi up, than moving him down. Kisame being Gai's main opponent throughout the manga is irrelevant. 



> Kakashi and Itachi are roughly even in base, but Itachi has three deadly Mangekyou techniques to Kakashi's one, and Itachi is always going to push the Mangekyou button faster than Kakashi.


Itachi is overrall stronger than Kakashi, but not a lot stronger. I'm cool with Kakashi being a tier below, but there is a certainly a good case for him being in the same tier.



> Pain canonically killed Kakashi.


So what? Kakashi arguably had the Pain bodies beat before back up even arrived; keep in mind pre-war arc Kakashi is weaker, going by feats.



> He can wipe out a village, erase a mountain range, or summon the _Gedo_ statue.


And yet, Kakashi is capable of wiping out Nagato's head before he can even raise his arm. See what I did there?



> Kakashi is not operating on or even close to their level.


He is weaker than them, but he can arguably give them a good fight.



> Sakumo and prime Hanzo are stronger than all of the Sannin by hype


.
By hype, Gai with his final gate is stronger than all the Hokages, albeit for a short while. One more thing to add, Hanzo spanked the Sannin when they were a lot younger.



> Tobirama is also above Kakashi by hype.


Maybe, but what about all his feats? Oh yeah...Edo Tobirama's feats aint very impressive. And I want you to state all of Tobirama's hype, besides being Hokage and Edo tensei.



> Muu had the upper-hand against both Onoki and Gaara. The Nidaime Mizukage tied with Muu.


Are you implying Muu is superior to both Gaara and Onoki? If so, Onoki also has no right being in that tier  But no, his abilities allowed that, doesn't make him superior to Kakashi.

Every ninja in the Narutoverse is different. Even if he's superior to one ninja, doesn't mean he's superior to another. Vice-versa, if he is inferior to one ninja, doesn't make him inferior to another.



> Naruto implied that his strongest attack was required to beat the Sandaime Raikage.


Again, what's your point man? Kamui can take out Raikage, Kakashi is smarter, has a better range of jutsu, better sense of smell....I can go on.



> The Yondaime is Raikage is too fast in version two for literally anything Kakashi has to offer, including _Kamui_; given that he dodged _Amaterasu_, which like _Kamui_, merely requires that the user look at the target to initiate the attack.



A bloodlusted Raikage didn't resort to his maximum speed when fighting Sasuke at first; this exposes him to Sasuke's Chidori. What if it had been Raikiri? We can only speculate. What if Kakashi decided to use Kamui in that instance? Lol.

timing was of the essence when Ay dodged Amaterasu. He needed to wait for the exact moment that the flames began to converge on him to evade it successfully. Just the same, even with Hiraishin, Minato needed to time it at the exact moment Tobi touched him and tried to absorb him. If he gets the timing right, with his maximum speed can do it, but will he? 



> _Kamui_ is the only thing that can threaten Onoki,


You don't realise how intelligent and resourceful Kakashi is, do you? Are you implying a Raikiri or Raiden wouldn't threaten Onoki? Is he immortal now?

Kakashi would get the upper hand in CQC, not only is he faster, he has a Sharingan to boot, and he can incoporate Raition into his taijutsu. Onoki takes flight? He is just asking to get Kamui'd? And let's not forget Kakashi is a master tactician/ Bunshin feint etc



> but Onoki opens with jinton as part of his rudimentary arsenal. Kakashi is far more liable to fall to jinton than he is to resort to _Kamui_.


Kakashi can warp Jinton away; Kamui on the other hand, will screw Onoki over.

I'll respond to the rest of your post later, I gtg now.


----------



## Empathy (Aug 31, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> He used 1 vs Haku, 1 vs Zabuza, Then he used Raiton Flow with Zabuza's sword, against all the Swordsmen. Then he used Thunder Slash 3X to hit back the first V2 Jinchuriki wave, when they went Bjuu/chakra hands he used Raiden to to cut of all of the hands, his last Raikiri was used to hit the hand of the Gedo Mazo. All together that is 8 Raikiri variants, with 2 of them being extended use(Raikiri flow on Zabuza's sword for his rampage, Raiden)



I've already explained why the ramifications from his previous battle shouldn't count. His _Raikiri_ usage in his current battle include: 

_Raikiri_
_Raiden_
_Raiden_, again
_Raikiri_-imbued kunai

That totals six by my count.



> -Yes Mangeyou Takes a toll on him, just like regular sharingan I gave you instances of both forms. Kakashi has continually been in a hospital bed throughtout the manga and died from abusing Sharingan twice, ontop of much less jutsu then he has used so far.



Just using the normal Sharingan hasn't really bothered Kakashi since Part I. If it does continue to cause strain, it's negligible at this point. Kakashi has only had stamina problems in Part II when _Kamui_ was concerned. 



> -No but I can use common sense to infer that Kakashi will have a big part to play in these upcoming chapters since his old friend is Tobi, or is being used as a vessel. Also he is there only means to hit him, so it is a pretty safe guess.



Kakashi looks like his head may explode if he tries to use _Kamui_ again. I doubt Tobi will continue to warp to his dimension, just to have Kakashi keep warping Naruto's full body to whoop his ass. Seems anticlimactic to me. Naruto still has his Yondaime Hokage level speed that Tobi fell to in the past. But whatever, we can't give Kakashi credit for something he hasn't done yet.



> -Those are all instances of Tsunade using her special Senju seal to heal/replenish Onooki and Co. This case is different as we know Senju DNA(which she inherited)gives chakra boost. No other healer as such powers due to lack of Yin forehead seal, and Yang Gentics/Byokugan. No other healer can give such significant chakra boost. Neji was near death and came back in serious but stable condition after being healed,same with chouji. The fact that Kakashi gets healed and has to spend days in bed also speaks to this fact. We have never seen Sakura or Shizune for that matter give such chakra bost, both of which are exemplary healers.



You're reaching here. Hashirama DNA is specifically what increases vitality/longevity, not Senju DNA in general. We see Onoki say he no longer has enough chakra to use jinton, he gets healed, and then is able to use jinton again. That's regular-old _Shousen Jutsu_ Tsunade is using. No unique properties have ever been stated, minus the aptitude of course.

*Edit:* Santoryu, I'll get to you later. I have to get ready for work.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 31, 2012)

Empathy said:


> I've already explained why the ramifications from his previous battle shouldn't count. His _Raikiri_ usage in his current battle include:
> 
> _Raikiri_
> _Raiden_
> ...



He used Raikiri three times along with the other you listed so that is 6. Also you forgot when he hit Gedo Mazo, when Bee and Gai combo ed it. I already explained no minus Tsunade can give chakra whilst Healing. No other medic has shown this.

-We will agree to disagree, nothing has implied he got over his natural dispositon of Sharingan always being active and wasting his chakra. It even taxes regular Uchiha, you also seem to forget simply having MS active affects the user greatly, which Itachi is just showing signs of now(bleeding from the eye). Using Sharingan and MS no doubt use chakra.

-I am not reaching here it is common knowledge. The uchiha line gained Yin specialization(genjutsu, mind techniques like Susano, Ama, etc) while Senju gained immense *yang chakra or Life force chakra*. Tsunade is the closest in line to Hashi's DNA, and this is clearly evident in her use of Yang, to heal her wounds. She also showed skill in Yin as well, and had* enough chakra to heal the whole village*. Nothing is a stretch here bud.


----------



## Jamiez (Aug 31, 2012)

*Gai* - He can arguably beat anyone in his current tier placement, bouncing off what Jad said, I agree. I vote him up because his techniques, Morning Peacock and Afternoon Tiger, are used to finish off high level opponents quickly. And people forget he also has Ura Renge and Omote Renge if he needs to use them, but I classify THOSE techniques as forbidden, this is why Rock Lee was all disabled like. His moves both cover a wide range, so the thought of escaping it dwindles, and the force of both attacks are enought o put many characters, if not all who are directly hit besides Ei and Sandaime, into a comotose state, and more than likely death. Plus Morning Peacock has the ability to light someone on fire, thus destroying their sense of judgement, sight and accuracy. As well as staying on the field and continually burning. He also has a range of good based Taijutsu in base, his attacks to those who aren't tanks will still injure and if not knock out a ninja with average to low durability. He has the speed, skill and know how, plus his weapon  usage isn't a bad addition considering the reach he can get.

*Vote:* *Moved up a tier, to A rank*. 

*Mifune* - I would like to see more feats from him,  but I guess where he is currently is fine. Again, he did defeat Hanzou, but it was all about the distance he started the match. He can arguably lose quite a few matches if people start spamming ninjutsu. Current tier is fine. 

*Vote:* *B+ tier*

*Baki:* His lack of feats really hurts him, he beat a good ranking Jounin, but even that character he beat was featless, or had no previous fights to kind of equalize where he would be placed. 

*Vote:* *C Tier*


----------



## Sferr (Aug 31, 2012)

Empathy said:


> Has Gai received a power boost since his fight with Kisame that warrants he would no longer need to bring out his strongest move to beat Kisame without Samehada?



Just to point this out, but Gai actually used Hirudora not for defeating Kisame but for getting the scroll.

_'Where's is the scroll? There are too many... I have no choice... I'll just have do widen my scope!!'_

That is the exact quote. Gai wasn't thinking about defeating Kisame when he was opening the 7th Gate. Getting the shark with the scroll was his main target. So saying that he needed his supposed most powerful move to defeat Kisame is wrong. Gai never tried without using it, really.

And anyway, Kisame himself should be moved up. He toyed with Bee, has two one of the most broken techniques in the manga that few can deal with, has the sword that can suck a bijuu dry. He himself shouldn't be in A- tier, he is a solid A. He would defeat probably half of the A tier.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Aug 31, 2012)

^ Seriously though, Kisame wanking needs to stop 

He admitted flat out a Sannin is on a different level then him. His Suiton mastery is impressive, but thats all he got. The same reason he recieved 4.5/5 for ninjutsu, instead of the 5/5 most Akatsuki got
His intelligence is average at best, and genjutsu is another weak spot.

Yess his Transformation is impressive. But when Choujiri was describing Kisame's prowess and skills to the 5 Kages, they were all like, "yeah we know this bitch, lets get on to something important". Experenced Kages are on a different level then Kisame. This was much obvious when Kisame himself admitted Sannin > him

And Kisame vs Bee. Seriously. Did you all read the amount of nerving in that battle. No ful powered Hachibi, constantly protecting Sabu & Kinta. People thinking that Kisame could handle Bee need to get a realilty check


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 31, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> ^ Seriously though, Kisame wanking needs to stop
> 
> *He admitted flat out a Sannin is on a different level then him.* His Suiton mastery is impressive, but thats all he got. The same reason he recieved 4.5/5 for ninjutsu, instead of the 5/5 most Akatsuki got
> His intelligence is average at best, and genjutsu is another weak spot.
> ...



Why does everyone take statements out of context when it comes to Kisame?

Kisame statement was solely based on *reputation*!


----------



## Rain (Aug 31, 2012)

Lets see...

*Gai*: He isn't stronger everyone in his tier. 
There are quite a few tough opponents for him: Gaara, Sasori, Deidara, Kisame, Tsunade () can all win against him.
IMO, he should stay in the same tier but in top 5

Vote: Top of A- tier.

*Mifune*: Now, this guy is pretty damn solid and, A- material. 
His base speed is almost shunshin-level and "Ninjutsu is useless against him" hype is incredible. His kenjutsu skills are almost unmatched.

Vote: bottom of A- tier.

*Baki*: Not much to add. I think he is good where he is.

Vote: C tier.


----------



## Sferr (Aug 31, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> He admitted flat out a Sannin is on a different level then him. His Suiton mastery is impressive, but thats all he got. This was much obvious when Kisame himself admitted Sannin > him


Yeah, sure, Jiraiya is > Itachi, Kisame and reinforcements 
Clinging to this statement needs to stop, like *Kakashi Hatake* said, Kisame was talking about reputation that was making Jiraiya stronger than he was.


hitokugutsu said:


> The same reason he recieved 4.5/5 for ninjutsu, instead of the 5/5 most Akatsuki got


Before we have databook, we have manga where he has shown a superior ninjutsus than most of Akatsuki.


hitokugutsu said:


> His intelligence is average at best, and genjutsu is another weak spot.


You just described half of the A tier.


hitokugutsu said:


> Yess his Transformation is impressive. But when Choujiri was describing Kisame's prowess and skills to the 5 Kages, they were all like, "yeah we know this bitch, lets get on to something important".


Uchiha Madara just declared war to them, they had different problems in mind.


hitokugutsu said:


> Experenced Kages are on a different level then Kisame.


No, they aren't.


hitokugutsu said:


> And Kisame vs Bee. Seriously. Did you all read the amount of nerving in that battle. No ful powered Hachibi, constantly protecting Sabu & Kinta. People thinking that Kisame could handle Bee need to get a realilty check



Like Kisame didn't use Daikodan against him and wasn't allowed to kill him. Kishimoto clearly showed that Kisame>Killerbee.


----------



## Rain (Aug 31, 2012)

Sferr said:


> Like Kisame didn't use Daikodan against him and wasn't allowed to kill him. Kishimoto clearly showed that Kisame>Killerbee.



No, he isn't. He is just a perfect counter to him. Just like Gai to Kisame.


----------



## Sferr (Aug 31, 2012)

Falkirion said:


> No, he isn't.
> He is just a perfect counter to him.



You are contradicting yourself.


----------



## FearIsGood (Aug 31, 2012)

I am not very sure if I can vote, but what the hay~

*Gai:* I believe that he should be moved a tier up from where he currently is residing. That would be A tier. I agree with Jad somewhat. Although some stuff I don't agree on. I believe Gai can actively stay in 6th Gate longer than people give him credit for. He also has above average strength, and it is further augmented by the gates. Yeah, I would move him up a rank definitely. Some people underestimate him way too much. Plus like some people have said, Gai only open the 7th Gate to destroy all the sharks for the scroll. And defeated Kisame with one move in both occasions. Morning Peacock and Hirudora. Both were impossible for Kisame to avoid when targeted at him. The latter just being unavoidable all together. Being uninjured by the Jins, escaping the explosion of his own attack, or just 'tanking' it. All commendable feats. Fighting on par with Tobi, a main villian, having all 5's in the databook when it comes to physical attributes. Being able to cleverly orchestrate through Tobi's S/T technique by utilizing the nunchucks. He has yet to show any form of struggle at the end of a battle, besides being outnumbered by 5 Bijuu-dama's. Or losing hope, *or being out of options*. I mean he is hardly, infact ever, been shown beat. Or out of stamina. Also the databook at one point said he was the best in Taijutsu. If you think about people moving Mifune up to his tier because he is a master swordsman _alone_, what about Gai for being a master Taijutsu user.

*Vote:* A Tier.

*Mifune:* He did a real good job against Hanzou, but he lacks ninjutsu or anything that his sword can do in terms of _range_. His current tier is fine though. The only reason he won against Hanzou was most likely because all of his techniques perhaps include above average number of hand seals. I mean if you look at the time Mifune was in the salamander and when he got out, he could have easily sealed a quick few hand seals. He'd definitely have trouble with other opponents, especially Gai if he is moved up to his tier like some have suggested.

*Vote:* Current tier placement.

*Baki:* Current placement. He hasn't shown much, but is a Jounin. But very low ranking.

*Vote:* Current tier placement.​


----------



## Rain (Aug 31, 2012)

Sferr said:


> You are contradicting yourself.



Whatever, we are going into offtopic.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 31, 2012)

The double standard with Gai and Kakashi needing to be on the same tier but Gai and Kisame don't is hilarious. Such a blatantly warped view. The fact is that a 30% Kisame, without any of his best jutsu like Daikodan and water dome, was able to defeat Tenten, Lee, Neji and base Gai. From part 1 we know that the gates are gates are extremely damaging, just because Gai is strong enough to withstand said damage and keep going doesn't negate that its a double-edged sword and not comparable to Kakashi using Kage Bunshin like Jad argues. Its much more equivalent to Kakashi using Kamui, for both Gai and Kakashi hesitate to use the gates and Kamui unless they need them. Gai had to go all the way up to six to beat a Kisame that wasn't even at half power. While defeating Kisame wasn't his main goal when using Hirudora, there isn't much to suggest he could have defeated even that weakened Kisame without it, as he needed Asa Kujaku to deal with just Senjikizame(even if the scroll wasn't a factor he'd have to deal with the technique the same way, else he'd have to deal with 1,000 sharks coming after him) and would have no counter to Daikodan. The scroll argument works both ways as well, as Kisame was more focused on getting it away then defeating Gai.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 31, 2012)

Guys try and stay on topic. Remember the topic is Guy, not Kakashi, and certainly not Mu or Onoki. Yes I realize that Kakashi is part of the discussion of Gai's placement, but people are a little bit over focusing on Kakashi, which is going off topic.


----------



## Rocky (Aug 31, 2012)

*Gai*

This guy thrashed Kisame, and can thrash most people on his current tier such as Old Hiruzen, Gaara, Mei, 4th Kazekage, Tsunade, etc. Gai can feasibly defeat may people a tier up as well, such as Jiraiya, Onoki, Kakashi, Yondaime Rakage, TrollKage, and maybe even Danzo. Gai should be able to easily move up into The Raikage's and Kakashi's tier.

Vote: Move Gai up to A Tier.


*Mifune* is fine. No Ninjutsu or Genjutsu, just above average Base Speed. 


I would say *Baki* could move up to at least Saukura Tier, being the Sensei of the and Siblings and all that.


----------



## Sferr (Aug 31, 2012)

Falkirion said:


> Whatever, we are going into offtopic.


Well, that's true.


WolfPrinceKiba said:


> The double standard with Gai and Kakashi needing to be on the same tier but Gai and Kisame don't is hilarious. Such a blatantly warped view. The fact is that a 30% Kisame, without any of his best jutsu like Daikodan and water dome, was able to defeat Tenten, Lee, Neji and base Gai. From part 1 we know that the gates are gates are extremely damaging, just because Gai is strong enough to withstand said damage and keep going doesn't negate that its a double-edged sword and not comparable to Kakashi using Kage Bunshin like Jad argues. Its much more equivalent to Kakashi using Kamui, for both Gai and Kakashi hesitate to use the gates and Kamui unless they need them. Gai had to go all the way up to six to beat a Kisame that wasn't even at half power. While defeating Kisame wasn't his main goal when using Hirudora, there isn't much to suggest he could have defeated even that weakened Kisame without it, as he needed Asa Kujaku to deal with just Senjikizame(even if the scroll wasn't a factor he'd have to deal with the technique the same way, else he'd have to deal with 1,000 sharks coming after him) and would have no counter to Daikodan. The scroll argument works both ways as well, as Kisame was more focused on getting it away then defeating Gai.



As much as I disagree with your analyses, I agree that Gai and Kisame shouldn't be in different tiers. The thing is, they are both solid A tier, IMO.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 31, 2012)

Kisame has been portrayed as being below at least Jiraiya if not the Sannin as a whole, so he shouldn't be on the A tier with Orochimaru and Jiraiya.


----------



## Sferr (Aug 31, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Kisame has been portrayed as being below at least Jiraiya if not the Sannin as a whole, so he shouldn't be on the A tier with Orochimaru and Jiraiya.



He was if you take into consideration that infamous line in part I but based on that dialogue with Itachi we get that base Jiraiya>=Itachi, Kisame and reinforcements. 

But in part II Kisame was pitted against Killerbee where he controlled the whole fight, was called the bijuu without a tail and was being said to have the biggest amount of chakra amongst the entire Akatsuki. In the fight against Killerbee, his sword sucked Hachibi dry. IMO, Kishi seriously upgraded Kisame during part II, maybe he wasn't intended to be on par with Sannin back then during that dialogue but now he certainly is. If anything, it can be said that Kisame was speaking about Jiraiya's reputation as I doubt Kisame knew about his abilities. Also, Kishi needed some plot purpose to keep Akatsuki from Naruto and that was Jiraiya in part I. In the beginning of part II thought he gave another plot purpose, that is Kyubi needed to be sealed last.


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 31, 2012)

_Maito Gai_
The single biggest limitation Gai suffers from in the BD is the matter of stamina when his Hachimon Tonkou is active. The idea that the Hachimon Gates are in and of themselves damaging is false.

The reason is because anytime we have seen Gai/Lee suffer physical damage is _*when they ascend to a higher Gate after rigorous activity in a lower Gate *_where if they don't, it simply becomes a matter of their physical fitness as to how long they can keep up the high level of Gated activity.

Notice how Lee tore his muscles _*as he opened the 5th Gate*_ [1] and how Gai is writhing in pain from using both Asa Kujaku in the 6th Gate and Hirudora in the 7th Gate in rapid succession.

Whereas currently, Gai has been visibly going in and out of Gates multiple times for the better part of the full day the fight against Rin'negan Tobi has been going on and has shown no such internal damage.

Why? Because as I said, how long you can sustain Gated activity when you don't shift up Gates in one session but instead enter the desired Gate directly is down to one's physical fitness. And I'm pretty sure when it comes to Gai and the insane and absurd physical training he puts himself through are synonymous such that everyone here can put two and two together.

In short, Hachimon Tonkou damaging the user is a myth and is only true when Gai shifts up a Gate in a single session. There is no ticking clock on how long he can sustain the Gates in any given matchup just as how Byakugou has no ticking clock as to how long Tsunade can sustain it. It is down to their stamina, of which both characters have a tonne of, except Gai's is physical and Tsunade's is chakra.

*Vote:* Promote Gai to A-tier.

Just my 2 cents,
Kenpachi TZ.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 31, 2012)

Yeah something is a myth when its explicitly stated to be true


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 31, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Yeah something is a myth when its explicitly stated to be true



Shouldn't you be off winning a tournament or getting a MotM award somewhere? 

You want to debunk me, come at me, bro.


----------



## Bart (Aug 31, 2012)

Definitely Gai should move up :3

*Vote Gai to A Tier*

Especially given from what we've seen ever since Part I with regard to his strength and speed, i.e. punching a Shinobi throught a concrete wall without making direct contact with the wall or dispersing a _weakened_ Gaara's absolute defence; particularly the Konoha Invasion.

And of course the vast amount of Part II feats against _30% Shouten Kisame_ among other things :WOW


----------



## Luftwaffles (Aug 31, 2012)

Move Gai up. Now. Or else


----------



## Cord (Aug 31, 2012)

*Gai*

With the current showings, I think Gai deserved to move up a higher tier. He may be a one dimensional fighter like one can claim, but that shouldn't be the case since he's easily one of the strongest character in their village despite that. That's also leaving the fact that he's skilled in terms of weaponry. And I have to agree that he'd definitely defeat most of the characters in his tier (IMO) with Hachimon, as suicidal as it is, shouldn't be dismissed as it's still a part of his arsenal. 

And yes, Gai may not be an entire tier above Kisame (considered as his rival and whom which he defeated on several occasions); but why would he remain in his current tier just because? Why not move Kisame up to a higher tier instead? Just like the Kages, despite his _'Jounin'_ level rank, he's fighting along side three of the strongest characters in the manga against a ridiculously powerful enemy, (again) despite his 'seemingly' limitations as a Shinobi. The author clearly intends to depict Gai to be that powerful than most give him credit for.

*Vote: A*



*Mifune and Baki:*

Nothing to add since I agree with their current placements.


----------



## Luftwaffles (Aug 31, 2012)

"The Gates don't really take affect on him at all, and he has been using them on and off for an extended period of time, much to everyones amazement. Or Displeasure. At any rate, his speed at base is comparable to Tobi, RM Naruto, V1 Raikage, Itachi and Minato. With the Gates open he can dodge just about everything thrown at him, and land large ranged attacks that are near unavoidable for many. And deadly as well. Considering his base strength can shatter boulders, and one shot Jounins with just the push of his arm. I would rank him in to the A tier specifically because of his performance of going up against high tiers without being beaten or being injured to an extent near death, or lowering his performance. I mean he did go up against Tobi, Kisame, 7 seven swordsman of the mist, Gedomazou and the Jins in the passed.

*Vote: A*


----------



## Turrin (Aug 31, 2012)

*IMPORTANT!*

I'm doing things a little early, because I won't be around later tonight. So the vote on the current characters is *officially closed*.

The next 3 character's we'll be discussing are: Inoichi, Jirōbō, Shisui. The Discussion will open on them Today, than in 24 hours 2:06 PM tomorrow, you guys can start Re-voting on their placements. Than the Revote will end on Monday.

Also just so people know, this is the last round I'm going to comb through your posts to find your votes. From now on unless you say *I Vote: X* it's not going to count. 

*Update:*

I just tabulated Gai, but it's really too close to call since he is right there on the margin of A- to A Tier (in-fact it's the closest average/vote on any character I have seen thus far). So I'm going to leave voting on Gai open for another 24 hours as well to see if this can be decided any more definitively than, me having to make a call on something so close.


----------



## Jad (Aug 31, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I'm doing things a little early, because I won't be around later tonight. So the vote on the current characters is *officially closed*.
> 
> The next 3 character's we'll be discussing are: Inoichi, Jirobu, Uchiha Shisui. The Discussion will open on them Today, than in 24 hours 2:06 PM tomorrow, you guys can start Re-voting on their placements. Than the Revote will end on Monday.
> 
> ...



I just counted, he has 3 more votes than A- Tier. Don't pull this crap, because I knew this was going to happen. Why do you think I wasted staying around in this thread, because I was waiting for this exact edit. Whatever dude. You don't even play by your own rules. Even if he had 1 more vote above an area, you leave it as it is. Too late for others to join in.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 31, 2012)

Jad said:


> I just counted, he has 3 more votes than A- Tier. Don't pull this crap, because I knew this was going to happen.


Dude were averaging shit, not whatever gets the most votes wins. I'm being very fair here considering that if we went with the average he'd remain A-, but it's so close and A does have slightly more votes so I don't want to do that.


----------



## Jad (Aug 31, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Dude were averaging shit, not whatever gets the most votes wins. I'm being very fair here considering that if we went with the average he'd remain A-, but it's so close and A does have slightly more votes so I don't want to do that.



Don't give me this averaging crap, more people voted A tier than A- Tier. No one voted less then A- tier. So there is no averaging. The hell you are averaging? Pulling numbers out of thin air. Whatever dude, I knew the second Gai was in the lead, you'd pull this stint. Knew it. You should play by your own rules. The rules you made up.


----------



## Santoryu (Aug 31, 2012)

Agreed with Jad             .


----------



## Joakim3 (Aug 31, 2012)

All I pray for is you don't discuss Nagato/Itachi/Minato at the same time.............. cuz that will go absolutly no where


----------



## Jad (Aug 31, 2012)

It's funny. He even balded the words "Officially Closed", make sure everyone stops voting. See's Gai is in the lead, retcons it, goes back on his word, goes back on his rules, sets up the votes waiting for Gai to lose the lead, even by one after 24 hours (because we all know, if Gai is being voted into A- by just one vote, he won't open the votes again for 24 hours. Since he can use the excuse _"Ohhh, I just opened it for 24 hours already, it's too late now"_). Then slam the brakes, stick the "Officially Closed"


----------



## Turrin (Aug 31, 2012)

Jad said:


> Don't give me this averaging crap, more people voted A tier than A- Tier. No one voted less then A- tier. So there is no averaging. The hell you are averaging? Pulling numbers out of thin air. Whatever dude, I knew the second Gai was in the lead, you'd pull this stint. Knew it. You should play by your own rules. The rules you made up.


(A-(90) * 10 + A(95)*13)/ 23 = (92.8etc....). 92 is an A-. I don't know about you but 92 is considered an A-, where I have gone to school. Furthermore it's not like there was a huge amount more votes for A, it was 3 more votes. Again I believe the fairest thing is to give an extension here. An extension in no way penalizes Gai ether, he has an equal opportunity to get more votes for A- or A. 

Though I admit I do have an ulterior motive, but it is not the one you think. The ulterior motive is that I would like something more definitive, so that Gai doesn't continue to be a big matter of contention, I.E. if I average Gai up to A Tier I would have people in here complaining because I did so, considering 42% of people consider him to be A- Tier at this point.

Also I really don't care if Gai makes it to A Tier, as can be seen by the fact, that I haven't even been here debating constantly against it.

What would be more constructive, than blaming me for adding an extension would be to try and convince others to change their votes.


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 31, 2012)

I Vote to promote Gai to A tier list. I saw white fang there so hype is included.

First of all, Gai's stamina has been huge recently, not only fighting for more than a day (almost two days straight) using gates on and off. His six gate is enough to make him a deadly oponent, and considering that in this state the gates takes no after effects and his current stamina, he can beat some of those Kage level and some of the A tier list.

Now with his nun-chucks that easily shattered a big boulder with one hit and remembering that it was noted by Tobi that Gai has a pretty good destructive power in base. The same Tobi that took a Rasengan in his arm and face and was not impressed at all aside from getting his secret revealed.

So, going back to 4 gated Lee, who easily destroyed the floor by just running, a 6th Gates Gai who in base is able to shatter a boulder and to push a man through a wall with ease, should deal a terrorific amount of damage in 6 gates using his nun-chucks. Enough to even tire out tanks such as Tsunade with byakugo (Following feats and logic).

So *Gai* should be in the *A tier list.*

*Deidara:*

There's not much to say. But he got reaction, speed and a bomb that one shots you if you don't have Sharingan/Byakugan or Rinnegan. And his sharp senses when fighting and his ability planning and tricking his oponent with C4, should give him a deserved place in the *A tier list* as well.


----------



## Namikaze Minato (Aug 31, 2012)

guys im confused, can i place my vote concerning Guy's placement or not?


----------



## Turrin (Aug 31, 2012)

Namikaze Minato said:


> guys im confused, can i place my vote concerning Guy's placement or not?


Yes I gave a 24 hour extension.


----------



## Namikaze Minato (Aug 31, 2012)

Gai is a fearsome combatant, just the fact that his student Lee went toe to toe for a while against Kimmimaro albeit sick and coming close to beating Gaara proves that Guy's style of Taijutsu is deadly.

He has punches that are instant kill if they landed, he can shatter boulders.

his Taijutsu exchange with Tobi was beyond impressive for a guy that used to fight against Kisame.

and lately his stamina have improved a lot, enabling him to fight for extended periods of time using gates.

the gate mode improves his stats drastically enabling him of beating a lot of S-Class Shinobi.

by Kakashi's own admission that using Gate require a lot of intelligence.

*I vote to place Guy in A Tier.*


----------



## tsunadefan (Aug 31, 2012)

well, just to be clear about my vote, i give Gai an A-.

*VOTE*: *A-*

although i am sure that turrin already calculated my vote. so since the voting for Gai is still open, does that mean we still have to wait until that is over to vote for the other 3?


----------



## Eliyua23 (Aug 31, 2012)

I'm sorry but waiting seems e more logical thing to do as you want to tally as many votes as possible, because most will only wait to vote on their favorite characters and some can overrate him , imagine if 10 Jiriyia fans voted him to S+ tier then the vote closed before we could get a more accurate avg, this is the safest most objective way of doing things.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 31, 2012)

I agree with Jad. 

Turin stick to the rules, if not then all the characters should get extra 24 hours.

If your going to be biased then there is no point of this thread. I'm going to be reporting this to the mod. It's stupid to change the rules just because you don't like how the vote turned out.

Gai must move up to A tier. People have voted and it got 3 vote lead, why must you extend the time 24 hours?


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 31, 2012)

Turrin said:


> (A-(90) * *10* + A(95) * *13*) / 23


I have a different spread of votes:[sp=A voters]













 
[/sp]
[sp=A- voters]










[/sp]Did I miss any votes? Are there ones you didn't allow?


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 31, 2012)

Guys I know it may seem unfair but I agree with what Turrin is doing. He isn't doing it because he has some grudge against Gai(even though his Avi is Tobi  ) he is doing it so that each placement is done correctly. If everyone came in here and voted that Konohamaru was Kage level, would you expect someone to simply take majority vote? I hope not, the fact that he gave an extension shows he wants clear discussion and a bar-a-meter. Gai just so happens to be the first popular character we have come across there will be disagreements and what now, the best thing to do is simply argue your case with as many facts as possible. Calling people cheaters without evidence and reporting the thread on its first revision round is just going to anger mods and get our only chance at a Tier thread closed. So let's make this a tight butt hole and simply argue are facts. BTW I voted for *Gai in A Tier* as well.

Inoichi- All of the elder Shiki-ino-cho are prtrayed to be elite jonin level. They do no have the power and prestige of the sanin or Kages, but their clans are revered and fighters thought more of as then regular Jonin. Inoichi is very dangerous, with his mind techniques, even Fuu gave an impressive fight against AO(idk if it was filler or not) with the mind techniques. I *vote: Inoichi B- Tier*

Jirubo- He was dubbed the weakest of the Sound Four by his partners, and was taken down by pre-skip Chouji(albeit with Rumble Balls). That being said he is not that weak compared to the other sound 4, I would place him in the C Tier as well. *Vote: C Tier*

Uchiha Shisui: Him and Itachi were portrayed to be equals, he was also working directly under Danzo which shows his strength. With monicker of have being able to Shunshin at high speeds, and possessing the best Genjutsu Hype Shisui is formidable. We saw even a young Itachi beat Orochimaru with regular sharingan Jutsu, and cut off his arm. I am really stuck between perfect placement or moving him up a tier. With Sharingan/Shunshin he can pretty much avoid alot of attack/see chakra/god reactions this along with his genjutsu hype and having Koto is dangerous, I would place him on Danzo's tier, as I believe Shisui only gave Danzo his eye out of duty(I mean sai was willing to risk his life for the man) then bestowed the other to Itachi. So that being said my *Vote: A Tier
*


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Aug 31, 2012)

Still talking about Gai? I don't know where to place him. He has very high taijutsu, strength, speed, and chakra; then he uses the Gates and becomes Chuck Norris.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 31, 2012)

*I vote Gai A tier.*

Gai is one of the fastest characters, one of the physically strongest, the best taijutsu fighter, a stamina freak, and has the ability to use all 8 gates. He can maintain the gates for a long time and not have drawbacks for a long time. The man can kill people by punching the air.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Aug 31, 2012)

I say based upon this list I would place him in the A tier, he has similar hype to White Fang, Hanzo, Tobirama who are beast based solely on hype but lack the feats and plot relevance to place them in the tier with the beast , Pain, and Itachi who have the hype ,feats, and plot relevance there's also nothing to suggest that he's stronger than Jiriyia and Orochimaru if anything he should be placed below them but that's neither here nor there, he can't beat Itachi, he can't beat pain, I doubt he could beat Prime Hiruzen who was Kage during his reign , he was never spoken off as a legitimate Hokage Candidate, so to me overall A seems just fine for him.

Shisui Uchiha= A




Inoichi I vote Inoichi in the B- tier as he and the other Ino-Shika-cho members seem about the same level and are on the level of the strong rookies but weaker than people like Asuma, and Zabuza who are placed on the B tier. C -C+tier seems to be insulting to a man of his capability and stature he's actually leading an important division in this war and seems to be respected across the world for his telepathic abilities.

Iniochi= B-




Jirobo I vote D+ exactly where he is rated now, Tenten, Ino, Karin are bonifed low-jounin based off their abilities, I also think their abilites are more useful in supportive roles, this guy was defeated by Chouji in pt1 who definetly isn't on the level of Ino and Tenten currently, Karin healing abilities and being of Uzamaki heritage puts her above pt 1 Chouji as well, with all that factored in I vote Jirobo to stay in the D+ tier where he's currently placed.

Jirobo= D+ Tier


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 31, 2012)

Gai in relation to the A tier...

Naruto was said to have surpassed Gai's rival Kakashi during the Immortals Arc. After that, he mastered SM, learned how to throw FRS, use Frog Katas,  learned how to summon the Ni Dai Sennin, Gamaken, Gamahiro, and how to control Gamabunta. SM Naruto with outside assistance was able to defeat Pein. Pein was stated to be so far above Gai that Gai would only be a liability against him. He was also roughly equal to MS Sasuke. SM Naruto was certainly a level above Gai.  

MS Sasuke is rivals with Naruto and the two of them were roughly equals, hence why it was said they would both die if they fought. Sasuke was able to defeat Danzo with outside help and able to tangle with the Raikage with only ribcage Susano. A blind MS Sasuke who did not have all of his chakra was able to force Gai's rival onto the defensive and forced him to use his trump card just to stay alive. MS Sasuke was certainly a level above Gai. 


Danzo has a technique that one shots virtually anyone, and he is willing to use it. Even without Koto, he had the upper hand against MS Sasuke who needed Karin to heal him at the end in order to win. The Danzo we saw fighting Sasuke was also not going all out, as he stated he would conserve chakra to fight Tobi afterwards. Danzo is a tier above MS Sasuke and two above Gai. 


We were told that if Jiraiya had as much knowledge on Pein as Gai had, he would have been able to defeat Pein. Gai on the otherhand was told he would only be a liability against Pein. Kisame said that someone like Jiraiya is on another level from him, and unlike Gai, Jiraiya was actually faced with a 100% Kisame. In order to surpass Kakashi, Gai's rival, Naruto only had to learn to use the FRS. In order to surpass Jiraiya, Naruto had to learn SM among other things. Jiraiya has the feat of casually defeating Konan, casually forcing Gai's nemesis (Kisame) to retreat (where he would have arguably been one shotted if not for Itach), defeating Kn4 in base without killer intent, and defeating 3 Paths of Pein without getting a scratch. He is also Orochimaru's rival. Jiraiya is clearly a tier above Gai. 


Orochimaru killed two Kage in one day, including the strongest of the five Kage. Orochimaru is nearly unkillable, as even decapitation and sealing him do not kill him. He has the ability to summon other Kage level shinobi to do his bidding via Edo Tensei, meaning that a fight against a full powered Orochimaru will entail fighting him and two-three other immortal Kage level foes. Karin did not seem to think that Hebi Sasuke had surpassed Orochimaru, even after Sasuke defeated Deidara who in turn would have kill Gai with one armless Bunshin. Orochimaru is also Jiraiya's rival so they are around the same level. Orochimaru is clearly a tier above Gai.


Muu is a relatively minor character, so not much is known about him. However, he was too much for Onoki, even with Gaara showing up to support him at the end. Him and the Nidaime Mizukage killed each other, implying that they are roughly equal. Muu being able to handle multiple Kages at once puts him above Gai.


The Nidaime Mizukage was able to handle Gaara in the desert, Jintonless Onoki, and hundreds of fodder. He was also able to kill Muu. I would say fighting two Kages for a while as well as an army should put him above Gai. 


The Sandaime Raikage was able to fight an army of 10,000 for three days. As far as we know, that army was not just fodder. There is no reason to assume that there were not lots of Jonin and a handfull of elite Jonin in it. I don't see Gai taking on an army. I would rank him a tier below the third Raikage.


Onoki was stated to be the real threat by Madara, implying that he is the strongest of the current five Kages. He was also able to destroy 25 Susano. I think being the strongest of the current five Kage and destroying 25 Susano puts him above Gai. 


Yondaime Raikage is not that far off from Gai, IMO. I consider Ei to be stronger, but don't care to argue whether or not he is a tier above. I place the Yondaime above Gai in my tier list, but Yondaime was at the bottom of my tier A list while Gai was at the top of my A- list, so not a big gap IMO. 


Kakashi and Gai are rivals. They should be in the same tier. Given Kakashi's record in battle, he should be moved down. 


Now onto the characters with limited panel time...


Hanzo was able to defeat the young Sannin, and it was considered a feat for the Sannin, not Hanzo. He fought Nagato and the Akatsuki for years, with no named Shinobi helping him out. He was able to defeat Mifune without much difficulty. Jiraiya also did not seem to believe anyone could have defeated him, and Nagato thought it was possible that if Hanzo had not lost his faith that he could have defeated Pein.  Defeating three potential Kage level opponents reknowned for their teamwork at once, and fighting Nagato should put him at least two tiers above Gai. Hanzo is A+ material.  


Tobirama was the Hokage, one of the greatest Suiton users ever, invented Edo Tensei, had a space time Jutsu, and was a master tracker. He was also a member of the Senju clan, meaning he inherited the body of the younger Sage. There is not much definitive about him, but his arsenal seems to suggest that he was a powerhouse. He was probably in the A+ tier, just looking at it on paper. 


Sakumo is kind of vague. He was strongest than the Sannin, and it was never stated whether that means the Sannin collectively or individually. We also don't know how strong the Sannin were then compared to now. I don't know where to rank him.


----------



## tsunadefan (Aug 31, 2012)

*Shisui*

Not much is known of Shisui placing him somewhere on the list will be diffuicult and based mostly on hype. But I think he should move from A- to A+. Why? Shisui is known for his speed as Shisui the body flicker. Speed might not determine everything, but it is still a strong factor when determining a winner... sometimes... Plus, Shisui is known as one of the most powerful genjutsu users of his clan. The strong eye genjutsu kotoamatsukami originates from his mangekyo sharingan.  His mangekyo can also influence peoples mind and their decisions and was coveted by Tobi and Danxo. He is not higher because I do not know the full extent of his fighting ability and Danzo took away one of his eyes, although I do not know the full circumstances. Also, kotoamatsukami has is own flaw. Sttill though, a quick kill can nullify that weakness. 

*VOTE: A+*

*Inoichi*

I haven't seen Inoichi much in battles but I think withe the mind body disturbance jutsu, he should at least be a B- because of the ability to control its victims, like the shadow manipulation technique but probably better. Inoichi's stronger opponents could also overpower the jutsu, eg. Tsunade and A. Other than that, I dont see much in his combat skills and so, cant be higher than a B-.

*VOTE:B-*

I will do Jiroubu soon.


----------



## timmysblood (Aug 31, 2012)

In regards to Gai/if I understand this correctly~

If your going to a a average/value system you should have let people choose exactly what value they not not tiers, for example I could say *Gai: 97* if I wanted him in the middle of the A tier.

As it stands since when the votes are average out there based on the lowest possible number to get into a tier you will always have people going into lower tiers then people are voting for.


In the fact the way it's set up now many how many people vote for A tier Gai can never get in unless someone votes for a tier higher than a.

if you had 1000 votes for a tier and 1 for a- Gai would still be put in A minus.

Unless I'm missing something it's a ridiculous system that encourages people to vote above the tier that people want that character to be in.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 31, 2012)

Turrin has been doing averages from the start to my knowledge so I don't know what people are talking about when they say hes changing the rules.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 31, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Turrin has been doing averages from the start to my knowledge so I don't know what people are talking about when they say hes changing the rules.



Gai is the first popular character to be ranked, so he is creating a much greater debate. His fans just want him to be ranked higher.


----------



## Lee-Sensei (Aug 31, 2012)

*I'm not sure if I can still vote on this, but I vote for Gai to be moved up to A Tier.*

What he lacks in Genjutsu and Ninjutsu he makes up for in physical power. Tobi has noted that he has a lot of destructive power. He's one of the fastest characters in the series. His stamina's incredible as he's been fighting for 1 or two days while flipping the Gates on and off and he can resist the negative effects of the Gates and his Taijutsu is probably the best in the series. While overall his intelligence is pretty average, he's shown a great deal of combat intelligence.



> Gai is the first popular character to be ranked, so he is creating a much greater debate. His fans just want him to be ranked higher.



It's not just his fans.


----------



## Santoryu (Aug 31, 2012)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Gai in relation to the A tier...
> 
> Naruto was said to have surpassed Gai's rival Kakashi *during the Immortals Arc*.



What's a reference from hundred of chapters have to do with anything? 

Oh wait...



> After that, he mastered SM, learned how to throw FRS, use Frog Katas,  learned how to summon the Ni Dai Sennin, Gamaken, Gamahiro, and how to control Gamabunta. *SM Naruto with outside assistance was able to defeat Pein.*



Yeah, with outside assistance    This same Naruto was stated to be above Jiraiya thanks to Sage mastery alone, given Fukasaku had no idea about Fūton: Rasenshuriken. 

Kakashi has gotten stronger since that arc ( feat wise) and it would make no sense if Gai wasn't also pushing himself to be better.




> Pein was stated to be so far above Gai


Pein is stronger than Gai, but when was it stated that he is "far above Gai" I implore you to prove this.



> Sasuke was able to defeat Danzo with outside help


well yeah, a load of pn

He had Karin feeding him with several infromation regarding Danzō's battle funcionality and battle style. 

He had Karin healing him before and during the fight. 1 2

He had Tobi, there to interfere when things went tough on Sasuke etc

And to top it all of, Danzo was preserving Kotoamatsukami for Tobi.




> A blind MS Sasuke who did not have all of his chakra was able to force Gai's rival onto the defensive and forced him to use his trump card just to stay alive. MS Sasuke was certainly a level above Gai.



Sasuke wasn't blind when Kakashi arrived, actually, that was due to him overusing the Mangekyo Sharingan.

In fact, it's plus points for Kakashi for being able to instantly warp his arrow despite being an Uchiha, not only this, but Sasuke was tossed around in taijutsu and resorted to MS first. In fact, he left himself so open that even Sakura could've taken him out 

Since then, Kakashi has shown even better speed feats.




> Danzo has a technique that one shots virtually anyone, and he is willing to use it. Even without Koto, he had the upper hand against MS Sasuke who needed Karin to heal him at the end in order to win.



Exactly. So I don't see your point here.




> We were told that if Jiraiya had as much knowledge on Pein as Gai had, he would have been able to defeat Pein.


The circumstances were different, not how this is a considered a detriment to Gai. Every character in Narutoverse is different, Gai has a good shot at being Jman, like it or not.



> Gai on the otherhand was told he would only be a liability against Pein.
> Kisame said that someone like Jiraiya is on another level from him, and unlike Gai, Jiraiya was actually faced with a 100% Kisame. In order to surpass Kakashi, Gai's rival, Naruto only had to learn to use the FRS. In order to surpass Jiraiya, Naruto had to learn SM among other things. Jiraiya has the feat of casually defeating Konan, casually forcing Gai's nemesis (Kisame) to retreat (where he would have arguably been one shotted if not for Itach), defeating Kn4 in base without killer intent, and defeating 3 Paths of Pein without getting a scratch. He is also Orochimaru's rival. Jiraiya is clearly a tier above Gai.



No he isn't 

The big gap between Jiraiya and Kisame was implied in PART 1. Hundreds of chapters ago. In part 2, yes, Jiraiya was stronger, but not as much as it was implied in P1.



> Orochimaru killed two Kage in one day,


One of them was pretty much off panel, but cool.



> including the strongest of the five Kage.


Who by feats, wasn;t very impressive, even Emna stated that he was "miserable compared to his prime" not only this, but a Kage bunshin would shorten his lifespan  not very impressive.



> Orochimaru is nearly unkillable, as even decapitation and sealing him do not kill him. He has the ability to summon other Kage level shinobi to do his bidding via Edo Tensei, meaning that a fight against a full powered Orochimaru will entail fighting him and two-three other immortal Kage level foes.


We seen how far that got him against a out of prime Saru.


> Karin did not seem to think that Hebi Sasuke had surpassed Orochimaru, even after Sasuke defeated Deidara who in turn would have kill Gai with one armless Bunshin. Orochimaru is also Jiraiya's rival so they are around the same level. Orochimaru is clearly a tier above Gai.


Baseless, being Jiraiya's rival doesn't equate to Orochimaru being placed a tier above 


Kakashi and Gai have shown the ability to physically keep up with multiple V2 Cloaked Biju (had Sharingan and Rinnegan too) (who were constantly smacking around KCM Naruto)


They easily overwhelmed Killer Bee and KCM Naruto. Kyubi is obviously the strongest of the Jinchurriki,, however, the form Oro fought was only using 4 of it's tails. Meaning that it was, at most, using less than half of it's power and chakra. While by comparison, the other Jinchurriki were using all of their tails (just like Bee's V2 Cloak). Since they're using all of their tails, that means the chakra that envelopes them should be more potent than Kyubi's chakra at only 4 Tails. Not only that, but they had total control over their abilities and were not mindless raging beasts. They also still had access to all their standard ninjutsu.

And you also have to consider that half of the Kyubi's full chakra was sealed inside the Death God by Minato. So that would make current Kyubi's chakra even less potent than the other Biju (at least at only 4 tails)

and one more thing, going by your shitty portyal (ignoring feats as usual)

SM Naruto surpassed Jiraiya at that point

but guess what?

if it wasn't due to bs/plot/PIS etc Pain would've done, it's as simple as that.


Deva Realm is shown effortlessly dodging multiple point blank Rasenshuriken without Shinra Tensei. Keep in mind that Naruto was not only in Sage Mode, but he threw them at a very close distance. However moments later Naruto (who was in Base mode, and standing a far greater distance than he was when he threw FRS) is able to use a Kage Bushin to throw himself and directly hit Deva with a normal Rasengan. So essentially we see Deva easily evading a preposterously fast attack at close range, yet is conveniently helpless to defend himself against a comparatively slower attack. Now what was stopping Deva from simply sidestepping Naruto's slow attack? Nothing. What stopped him from easily dodging it was plot. Naruto needed to defeat Pain to further the story. This is a true example of PIS.

As always, you're posting half-truths, ignoring feats, and using references from hundreds of chapters ago when the manga has clearly moved on.


----------



## timmysblood (Aug 31, 2012)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Gai is the first popular character to be ranked, so he is creating a much greater debate. His fans just want him to be ranked higher.



Honestly I don't have a problem with Gai being placed in high A- tier, what I have a problem with is how the system is broken If I understand it correctly.

Logically if your not going to allow people to say point values, what points are assigned shouldn't be from the bottom of the tier they say, it should be from the middle.


Given this it would be (( 92.5*10)+(97*13))/23 = 95.04

Which would place Gai at the bottom of the A tier.

Otherwise no matter how many people vote for A tier Gai wouldn't be placed in it.  

Hell going by Turrins system technically no one can even get placed in s Tier+ if just one person votes below that.

If i'm understanding his system correctly it's broken.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 31, 2012)

Santoryu said:


> What's a reference from hundred of chapters have to do with anything?
> 
> Oh wait...



What does a reference from the manga have to do with anything? A lot. 

There is no expiration date on statements just because you don't like them. 



> Yeah, with outside assistance    This same Naruto was stated to be above Jiraiya thanks to Sage mastery alone, given Fukasaku had no idea about Fūton: Rasenshuriken.



Completely disingenuous. If you actually read my post, you would see it was mentioned that Naruto also learned how to summon the Ni Dai Sennin, Gamaken, Gamahiro, control Gamabunta, use Frog Katas, and use the Food Cart Destroyer. I'm sure that you did read that part of the post, you just want to ignore it.



> Kakashi has gotten stronger since that arc ( feat wise) and it would make no sense if Gai wasn't also pushing himself to be better.



Nobody has said anything about Kakashi improving since then. That was only about a month ago. It would not make any sense for Gai to have improved by any signicant amount in the last month. 



> Pein is stronger than Gai, but when was it stated that he is "far above Gai" I implore you to prove this.



Again, that is a completely dishonest post. You edited out the rest of my post where I said "Pein was stated to be so far above Gai that Gai would only be a liability against him" which was stated here: 

because that guy thought he was still invisible to Obito, so he was sneaking up on Obito *veeeery* slowly as to not make any sounds



> Sasuke wasn't blind when Kakashi arrived, actually, that was due to him overusing the Mangekyo Sharingan.



Sasuke went blind after using one Jutsu. 



> In fact, it's plus points for Kakashi for being able to instantly warp his arrow despite being an Uchiha,



Sasuke can use more arrows than Kakashi can Kamui. 



> but Sasuke was tossed around in taijutsu and resorted to MS first.



Kakashi only had the edge in Taijutsu when he ambushed Sasuke who did not know Kakashi was not even there, and even then he failed to land a hit. Nevermind that Sasuke was exhausted. Otherwise there was no Taijutsu.



> In fact, he left himself so open that even Sakura could've taken him out



When Sasuke went blind Sakura almost hit him from behind. Kakashi was in front of Sasuke from a distance away, unable to exploit the opening. 



> resorted to MS first



Sasuke did not resort to his MS. He used it as his first move. He was not pressured into doing anything. Kakashi was the only one who resorted to his MS, as he would have died after one attack if he had not by his own admission. 



> Since then, Kakashi has shown even better speed feats.



That was a few weeks ago in the Naruto universe. War had just been declared and the armies were about to start mobilizing. Kakashi's speed has not changed in the last few weeks. 



> Exactly. So I don't see your point here.



The point is that Danzo is on a completely different level than Gai, and even most of the A tier would be outmatched badly by him. Danzo would one shot Gai with Koto and be done with it.



> The circumstances were different, not how this is a considered a detriment to Gai. Every character in Narutoverse is different, Gai has a good shot at being Jman, like it or not.



Their situations relative to Pein explains the gap between them, where Jiraiya has a chance to beat Pein solo while Gai is only a liability against him. Gai has an outside chance of pulling off an upset against Jiraiya under the right circumstances, just like how Jiraiya has an outside chance of upseting Pein under the right circumstances. Having a chance of beating someone does not make you as strong as them. 



> No he isn't
> 
> The big gap between Jiraiya and Kisame was implied in PART 1. Hundreds of chapters ago. In part 2, yes, Jiraiya was stronger, but not as much as it was implied in P1.



Part one is a part of the Narutoverse just as part two is. Nothing has changed relative to Jiraiya and Kisame since then. There have been no statements suggesting that Kisame was wrong. That scenario ended with Kisame fleeing for his life, and never taking back the claim that Jiraiya was too strong for him. 



> One of them was pretty much off panel, but cool.



Whether Orochimaru killed the 4th Kazekage on or off panel us irrelevant.



> Who by feats, wasn;t very impressive, even Emna stated that he was "miserable compared to his prime" not only this, but a Kage bunshin would shorten his lifespan  not very impressive.



Pathetic compared to his prime, meaning pathetic compared to Prime Hiruzen who is said to be above Hashirama. Not pathetic compared to Gai, who would have been killed with Orochimaru/Hashirama/Tobirama with ease. 



> We seen how far that got him against a out of prime Saru.



Are you insuating that Gai would defeat, or even hold his own against Orochimaru with Edo Hashirama and Tobirama while trapped in the Sound Four's barrier? 



> Baseless, being Jiraiya's rival doesn't equate to Orochimaru being placed a tier above



Baseless that Gai would have died against C0? Show any evidence that Gai would have tanked or avoided C0. 



> They easily overwhelmed Killer Bee and KCM Naruto. Kyubi is obviously the strongest of the Jinchurriki,, however, the form Oro fought was only using 4 of it's tails. Meaning that it was, at most, using less than half of it's power and chakra. While by comparison, the other Jinchurriki were using all of their tails (just like Bee's V2 Cloak). Since they're using all of their tails, that means the chakra that envelopes them should be more potent than Kyubi's chakra at only 4 Tails. Not only that, but they had total control over their abilities and were not mindless raging beasts. They also still had access to all their standard ninjutsu.
> 
> And you also have to consider that half of the Kyubi's full chakra was sealed inside the Death God by Minato. So that would make current Kyubi's chakra even less potent than the other Biju (at least at only 4 tails)



The 50% Kyuubi defeated five Bijuu at the same time. That makes it more than twice as powerful as any of them. Kn4 is the only V2 Jinchuriki that can use Bijuudama, he caused earthquakes by hitting the ground, he tore Orochimaru in half with ease, and he tanked the sword of Kusanagi when it launched him hundreds of meters. Kn4 is on a different level than the other V2 Jinchuriki. 



> Deva Realm is shown effortlessly dodging multiple point blank Rasenshuriken without Shinra Tensei. Keep in mind that Naruto was not only in Sage Mode, but he threw them at a very close distance. However moments later Naruto (who was in Base mode, and standing a far greater distance than he was when he threw FRS) is able to use a Kage Bushin to throw himself and directly hit Deva with a normal Rasengan. So essentially we see Deva easily evading a preposterously fast attack at close range, yet is conveniently helpless to defend himself against a comparatively slower attack. Now what was stopping Deva from simply sidestepping Naruto's slow attack? Nothing. What stopped him from easily dodging it was plot. Naruto needed to defeat Pain to further the story. This is a true example of PIS.



Deva was hit by the Rasengan because he was exhausted and fell to his knees. PIS is a horrible argument. It just goes to show that the authors plot involved Naruto doing well.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 1, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> I have a different spread of votes:[sp=A voters]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think I actually missed 3 votes. But  it's really hard to follow all of these posts when people aren't following the format I requested them to use. Both I and another poster arrived at 13, so I am not the only one who found this difficult. This is why I requested for people to follow the vote format more closely.

@Everyone
I'm getting awfully sick of people trying to say I'm being biased or changing the rules. Gai's average was 92.8, that would be an A-. All the people complaining about me giving Gai a 24 extension are the Gai fans. You guys should be thanking me because if I didn't give the extension Gai would be on A- Tier right now. As for changing the rules way back when this thread was discussed, taking averages were agreed on and I showed everyone the number assigned to each letter grade and how the averages would work. Nobody had a problem with it, only now when a character doesn't place on the tier they want him to be on do they complain. Whose really biased here.




timmysblood said:


> Honestly I don't have a problem with Gai being placed in high A- tier, what I have a problem with is how the system is broken If I understand it correctly.
> 
> Logically if your not going to allow people to say point values, what points are assigned shouldn't be from the bottom of the tier they say, it should be from the middle.
> 
> ...


Personally I like how it's difficult for a character to advance to the next tier or be placed on thee highest tier. Though your argument about no matter how many people voted is wrong. [A(95) *15 + A-(90) * 10]/25 = 93. Gai gets placed on A Tier. And I think Gai has at least 15 votes for A tier now. 

Anyway I'm fine going with the above system as well. If people show interest in it. Both have pluses and minuses.


----------



## Jad (Sep 1, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Personally I like how it's difficult for a character to advance to the next tier or be placed on thee highest tier. Though your argument about no matter how many people voted is wrong. [A(95) *15 + A-(90) * 10]/25 = 93. Gai gets placed on A Tier. And I think Gai has at least 15 votes for A tier now.
> 
> Anyway I'm fine going with the above system as well. If people show interest in it. Both have pluses and minuses.



So you are telling me hypothetically.

170 People vote for Tier A, 120 vote for Tier A-, but because of this averaging, you are going to screw over 170 people who are voting for the character to be in a higher tier, in favor of the 120 who want him to stay in the same tier. So you are pretty much not counting 50 peoples votes. Because it's the same as 120 A and 120 A-, in your eyes. Those 50 people make up more then 42% of the 120 voters they are challenging. That's nearly HALF of uncounted votes of the 120 in support of A- tier.

That's 59% in support A tier over 41% support support of A- tier. They don't even pull this shit in the government. You like numbers soo much, how about you sallow that down.

(((A)95*170) + ((-A)90*120))/290 = 92.9 Which you won't even AVERAGE UP.

So not only do you screw 170 people WHO want him in a higher tier, you don't even bother counting the 50 votes over the 120, because of the averaging. It's even worse when a person votes for tier B+, because their vote pretty much counts as DOUBLE.

I mean ((95*3)+(85*1))/4. So you screw 3 votes, 3 people, the  majority, over just one vote because they are voting a tier or two below. So you meet them half way? Even though 3 people > 1 persons judgement, you meet them half way? This could be a legitimate scenario.

Your system is flawed. Go with majority rules, because the lower the person votes, the more their vote gets counted over a persons vote for a higher tier, visa versa. Then your gonna see people voting people up to S rank, so their vote gets counted MORE, because of the averaging. You're gonna get people screwing up the averages. All of a sudden it becomes a game to vote higher than you would to see your character go up in tier, one person can screw it up at the end of the day. It goes both ways. You're gonna see people playing the number game.


----------



## Immortal (Sep 1, 2012)

It should be harder to change a persons tier in these reviews than it is for them to stay the same. The tier list on the front page is a result of all of our tier lists, so it is semi-accurate and because of that it should be harder for us to make revisions than it is to keep it the same. 

There should be a large majority in order to change the tier; there wasn't before, and now there is. I believe Turrin was in the right here, even if I think Gai belongs in the A tier and he does not. Turrin's opinion has nothing to do with this, I think it's pretty obvious that Turrin wants this project to be successful and I know for a fact it won't be if he's going to get attacked like this every time a popular character comes up. Turrin is probably shitting himself at the thought of eventually discussing Itachi. Lay off the guy lol. 

And btw, I never voted on Gai's placement, so Turrin didn't ignore a vote of mine, it wasn't a vote lol. Just throwing that out there.


----------



## Jad (Sep 1, 2012)

Immortal said:


> It should be harder to change a persons tier in these reviews than it is for them to stay the same. The tier list on the front page is a result of all of our tier lists, so it is semi-accurate and because of that it should be harder for us to make revisions than it is to keep it the same.
> 
> There should be a large majority in order to change the tier; there wasn't before, and now there is. I believe Turrin was in the right here, even if I think Gai belongs in the A tier and he does not. Turrin's opinion has nothing to do with this, I think it's pretty obvious that Turrin wants this project to be successful and I know for a fact it won't be if he's going to get attacked like this every time a popular character comes up. Turrin is probably shitting himself at the thought of eventually discussing Itachi. Lay off the guy lol.
> 
> And btw, I never voted on Gai's placement, so Turrin didn't ignore a vote of mine, it wasn't a vote lol. Just throwing that out there.



I just did a count on this 'tier list'.

Kakashi S-: 1
Gai S-: 1

Kakashi A+:7
Gai A+:6

Kakashi A: 4
Gai A: 5

Kakashi A-: 6
Gai A-: 4

Kakashi B+: 3
Gai B+: 5

21 votes were counted, I looked at the thread, I can name them all. I even screen shotted them. That's right, so you don't go off changing your shit.

Both Kakashi and Gai score 94 or 94/93. Now Turrin is ranking them up if they get 93. A tier. Yet Kakashi is in A tier, and Gai is in A- tier.

Kakashi: ((1*100)+(7*99)+(95*4)+(90*6)+(89*3))/21 = 94.28
or
 ((1*105)+(7*100)+(95*4)+(90*6)+(85*3))/21  = 94.28

Gai: ((1*100)+(6*99)+(95*5)+(90*4)+(89*5))/21 = 94
or 
((1*105)+(6*100)+(95*5)+(90*4)+(85*5))/21 = 93.57



So either you guys are just screwing around, or this whole thing is faulty. If I was able to find an error, imagine the entire tier list. And don't tell me 21 people represent Narutoforums, and now the majority of people who didn't vote are stuck with a crappy tier list that takes a ton of votes just to shift a person up one spot. When the whole thing just collapses because peoples votes that go down or up are counted twice or three times as much.


----------



## Immortal (Sep 1, 2012)

Inoichi is on the C tier and I think he is one of the most misplaced characters on the tier list. He is one of the best sensors in the manga along with the likes of Karin, has telepathy that no one else in the manga even comes close to and his mind-swapping technique is pretty dope if you ask me. An integral part of the original Ino-Shika-Cho that seems every bit as intelligent has Shukaku, Inoichi has shown his value throughout the current war. 

*Vote Inoichi B-*

Shisui is based completely on hype, and I believe that he should stay on the same tier. When it comes to characters that are hyped, three or four main people come to mind: The White Fang, Hashirama, Hanzo, perhaps Hiruzen and then Shisui. Shisui is the least hyped of that five, or at least is towards the bottom if you ask me. His genjutsu is haxxed as shit, but he's not as hyped as the White Fang to just put him up in one of the premier tiers, and we have no feats and very little knowledge on the character as a whole. I'm personally uncomfortable adding characters like Shisui and the White Fang that we know little to nothing about, but I vote to 

*Keep Shisui on the same tier*

Jirobo is garbage imo. He has a decent skill set, but overall it's both stated and shown that he's the weakest of the Sound Four and I don't regard them to be very powerful to start with. However, seeing him two tiers below his team mates seems like a bit much. Personally, I would think about lowering Sakon and Tayuya to the C- tier, but since they're on the C tier I suppose it only makes sense to 

*Move Jirobo to the C- Tier*


----------



## Rain (Sep 1, 2012)

*Shisui* He is hyped as one of the most talented Uchihas. He has the strongest genjutsu in the manga and can win fight against just about everyone. However, Kotoamatsukami does have a huge cooldown and imo, that is the only thing keeping him from S- tier. He is also great Shunshin user, evidenced by his nickname.

Vote: A+

*Inoichi* An extremly valuable guy to have on your side. Probably the best sensor in the manga. He isn't the guy who will win 1v1 battle many times, but his true strength is in fights with multiple fighters thanks to his sensor abilities and great Kekkei Genkai.

Vote: B-


----------



## Jad (Sep 1, 2012)

Falkirion said:


> *Shisui* He is hyped as one of the most talented Uchihas. He has the strongest genjutsu in the manga and can win fight against just about everyone. However, Kotoamatsukami does have a huge cooldown and imo, that is the only thing keeping him from S/S+ tier. He is also great Shunshin user, evidenced by his nickname.
> 
> Vote: A+



Well, his hype dies down a lot if you take into consideration he fought Ao, whom lived to tell the tale. Plus if I remember correctly, wasn't really pushing the point that he was that legendary.


----------



## Rain (Sep 1, 2012)

Jad said:


> Well, his hype dies down a lot if you take into consideration he fought Ao, whom lived to tell the tale. Plus if I remember correctly, wasn't really pushing the point that he was that legendary.



From what we saw, Shisui wasn't the type willing to kill, unless he absolutely had to.

Itachi probably took that from him.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 1, 2012)

Jad said:


> Well, his hype dies down a lot if you take into consideration he fought Ao, whom lived to tell the tale. Plus if I remember correctly, wasn't really pushing the point that he was that legendary.



Regardless we can place him roughly around Anbu Leader Itachi level. That same Itachi used simple genjutsu and speed to beat Orochimaru. Shisui has Great genjutsu feats, and Speed hype(Shisui of the Shunshin). So essentially anyone without a reliable means to end genjutsu(partner method, great chakra control,or counter genjutsu)that combo soloes. Let us not forget Orochimaru holds a 5 in genjutsu, and he was in his prime in Akatsuki. Let it be of note Oro fell for the same genjutsu under Pt. 2 Sasuke


----------



## Sferr (Sep 1, 2012)

Immortal said:


> It should be harder to change a persons tier in these reviews than it is for them to stay the same. The tier list on the front page is a result of all of our tier lists, so it is semi-accurate and because of that it should be harder for us to make revisions than it is to keep it the same.
> 
> There should be a large majority in order to change the tier; there wasn't before, and now there is. I believe Turrin was in the right here, even if I think Gai belongs in the A tier and he does not. Turrin's opinion has nothing to do with this, I think it's pretty obvious that Turrin wants this project to be successful and I know for a fact it won't be if he's going to get attacked like this every time a popular character comes up. Turrin is probably shitting himself at the thought of eventually discussing Itachi. Lay off the guy lol.
> 
> And btw, I never voted on Gai's placement, so Turrin didn't ignore a vote of mine, it wasn't a vote lol. Just throwing that out there.



But wasn't the point of everything to create a tier list by the entire Konoha Library? I don't really get why it should be that hard for a character to leave his tier where he was placed in the op. That tier list wasn't created by regular voting, why it should be treated like it is was a one true tier list. I agree with averaging system but it should be more liberal. Or else the idea behind this thread is losing its point.


----------



## Yoko (Sep 1, 2012)

Gai should definitely be moved up if Kakashi is on the next tier.  I understand that Kakashi is supposedly "ahead" of Gai in their matches, but definitely not to the point that Gai is dead last on the A- tier while Kakashi is on the upper quadrant of the A tier (TBH, not sure if placement within tier matters).  They are roughly equals, thus they should be on the same tier; Kakashi being just slightly superior [solely based on Gai's off-hand statement] doesn't justify them being a tier apart.  

Furthermore, Gai can beat pretty much everyone in the A- tier, IMO.  He may not be well rounded (not versatile), but he is so excellent at what he does that he doesn't need versatility.  His attacks have speed, power, and range (Hirudora and Asa Kujaku) and he also has the roof-tier speed and skill to make them matter.

*Vote*: Move Gai up to A tier (Kakashi's tier).


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 1, 2012)

3 new characters eh. I see Shisui wank has already begun :

Anyway lets start with 

*Inoichi*
One of Konoha's important Jonin. Although he is powerful he is more suited for the Ino-Shik-Chou combo. 1vs1 he's not skilled as more powerful/famed  Jonin such as Yamato, Asuma, Zabuza etc thus:
*B- tier*

*Jiroubo*
In a way the "weakest" of the sound 4 according to Tayuya. Of course not in physical strength but *overall skills*. Still falls in line with the Other sound 4. 
*C tier*



*Shisui*
Now the most omportant one. I've already seen a couple o posts that rank him A+ tier . That's currently prime Hiruzen, Itachi, Killer Bee and KCM Naruto tier. And now Shisui falls there because he has Koto 

Again this is important imo, since *a powerfull shinobi should be well verses in every area*, not being wanked just because they are good at one thing. If that would be the case we would be ranking Gai also A+ tier since his 8 Gated can no doubt kill an A tier and possible A+ tier shinobi
Currently I believe Shisui is being ranked for Koto. Which is fine, but one powerfull OHKO justsu should not make one automatically A+ tier

As for hype; Shisui genjutsu feats equal Itachi. Koto no doubt >> genjutsu Itachi has, but *overall* Itachi was more fearsome. When White Zetsus were killing people, Shinobi HQ assumed Itachi's genjutsu could be doing this. Not Shisui, but Itachi
Also Koto is not a "one-shot jutsu anyway". If that was the case Danzo would also be top tier. And remember even when Danzo regenained his sharingan & Koto, he was planning on using Koto on Madara. But he never pulled it off. Just like other sharingan genjutsu (such as Tsuki) it requires close proximity. This alone should destroy the notion that Koto is an instant win. It also takes skill to pull it off
Might I also add. Danzo was able to take an eye from Shisui. If Shisui was truly prime Hiruzen level or Itachi level I hardly doubt he would be taken down that easily by Danzo & ANBU fodder, even it was an sneak attack 

Overall, Shisui is powerfull. His normal genjutsu is also no doubt powerfull, since he was renowed in the Uchiha Clan and even Killer Bee. Koto is also haxx, but its not an instant win as some people would like to think:
- remember Shisui failed to pull of Koto to stop the coup
- Pre-sharingan Danzo (+ ANBU fodder?) took an eye from the "almighty" Shisui

Shisui's genjutsu > Itachi. However Itachi easily > Shisui, since he also excells in other areas. So unless Databooks come out and give Shisui a 4.5/5 taijutsu, 5/5 intelligence, 5/5/ ninjutsu etc I'm ranking Shisui
*A- tier*


----------



## Alex Payne (Sep 1, 2012)

Gai is Kakashi's roughly equal with excellent showings. With 7 Gates he could beat up most of his current Tier and with 8 Gates he could likely tie with a good amount of people from a Tier above. He fought off freaking Bijus and later went to fight one of the strongest characters ever and he was shown to awesome doing so. He lacks hype/status/legends but fuck them - Gai is simply strong. And he will likely receive a world-wide renown later on. Him and Kakashi(there are also two Uchihas from Konoha though... but they are not officially affiliated) are Konoha's strongest from that generation(post Minato gen) and he is living up for that position so far. 

*Vote: A *

Inoichi is one of the Konoha's finest Jonin. Specialized in non-combat areas but likely can beat up noobs just as well if necessary. Best sensor/telepath due to War position and world-wide reputation(dude who set up Daimyo skype said so). What is he doing with chunins in that Tier?

*Vote: B-*

Jirobo is Sound 4. And they were shown roughly equal. Even with implications that Jirobo is weakest of the group difference shouldn't be large.

*Vote: C*

Shisui is fine where he is. He was renown as the best genjutsu user from Uchihas for a while but his abilities are a bit ambiguous. And his pure hype places him right there in that Tier. He's got very powerful trump card but he is gimped by recharge time.

*Vote: A-*


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 1, 2012)

Gai moving up to a tier where by portrayal Kisame cannot possibly be is going to mess up this whole thing


----------



## Alex Payne (Sep 1, 2012)

My main reasoning is 8 Gates actually. Suicide tech but implied to be insanely powerful. Either way, Gai is likely weakest in that Tier.

He is still awesome though


----------



## timmysblood (Sep 1, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Personally I like how it's difficult for a character to advance to the next tier or be placed on thee highest tier. Though your argument about no matter how many people voted is wrong. [A(95) *15 + A-(90) * 10]/25 = 93. Gai gets placed on A Tier. .



I didn't read everything in the op  but I thought that it had to be 95 plus to be A tier ?


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Sep 1, 2012)

Move gai up to *A*tier. He deserves it, has the feats and the 8 gate could possibly put him even higher. Why are people saying he should be with kisame?? gai it's way stronger than him and the A- people.


----------



## Melodie (Sep 1, 2012)

It's a sad day when feats overwhelm portrayal in the library [even though he is weaker than few in the A- tier - by feats).​


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 1, 2012)

Melodie said:


> It's a sad day when feats overwhelm portrayal in the library [even though he is weaker than few in the A- tier - by feats).​


It truly is, this may as well be the BD for all the care portrayal gets(hell a good deal of the BD posters take portrayal into account more then people are here). Gai being portrayed as a level below SM Naruto? Doesn't matter. Gai also being below Jiraiya due to him being a SM user like Naruto who was portrayed as above Gai? Doesn't matter. Kisame being Gai's main opponent throughout the series and him needing his strongest abilities to defeat handicapped Kisame's, with him never defeating a Kisame that was at full power? Doesn't matter. Kisame being portrayed as below the Sannin and therefore Gai who is on Kisame's level also being below the Sannin? Doesn't matter.

The only portrayal that does seem to matter to the Gai supporters is that Kakashi and Gai are rivals. Seems it only matters when it benefits their argument.

If portrayal doesn't matter on this tier list then it is pointless for the Library to have one separate from the BD.


----------



## timmysblood (Sep 1, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> It truly is, this may as well be the BD for all the care portrayal gets(hell a good deal of the BD posters take portrayal into account more then people are here). Gai being portrayed as a level below SM Naruto? Doesn't matter. Gai also being below Jiraiya due to him being a SM user like Naruto who was portrayed as above Gai? Doesn't matter. Kisame being Gai's main opponent throughout the series and him needing his strongest abilities to defeat handicapped Kisame's, with him never defeating a Kisame that was at full power? Doesn't matter. Kisame being portrayed as below the Sannin and therefore Gai who is on Kisame's level also being below the Sannin? Doesn't matter.
> 
> The only portrayal that does seem to matter to the Gai supporters is that Kakashi and Gai are rivals. Seems it only matters when it benefits their argument.
> 
> If portrayal doesn't matter on this tier list then it is pointless for the Library to have one separate from the BD.



Gai being <then sm Naruto was never really established, all Katsuyu said was that Naruto should deal with pain by himself not anything else.And even if she did straight out say say sm Naruto>Gai then shes a slug who hasn't really shown she knows what she's talking about.

Denying reinforcements for no reason is dumb, sorry slug.



 Gai didn't use his strongest move,samehada wouldn't have made a difference in that fight.And you neglected to mention that Gai was handicapped by two factors.

1.he had to simultaneously fight Kiasame and get the scroll.
2 he was fighting on Kisame's turf.

Honestly your not going to get a stronger instance of Kishi clearly saying and showing one character is stronger then another.

Also portrayal Gai is currently being shown to keep up and even do better then RM Naruto was in a fight against Tobi. If fighting against the main villain isn't a significant boost to Gai's portrayal  I don't know what is.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 1, 2012)

timmysblood said:


> Gai being <then sm Naruto was never really established, all Katsuyu said was that Naruto should deal with pain by himself not anything else.And even if she did straight out say say sm Naruto>Gai then shes a slug who hasn't really shown she knows what she's talking about.


She said he'd be in Naruto's way and to suggest that Gai is on SM Naruto's level is to suggest Kakashi is as well. Kakashi with back-up lost to 1/6 Deva whereas Naruto fought the majority of the Pain bodies and eventually defeated a 100% Deva(albeit with some assistance due to the Kyuubi rampage saving him when he was beat). Going by portrayal wind-arc Naruto is>Kakashi though that statement can be implied to be mainly talking about him being able to do what Kakashi, Minato and Jiraiya could not and upgrade the Rasengan to the next level, even still if WA Naruto wasn't portrayed as above Kakashi, SM Naruto was. 





> Gai didn't use his strongest move


Hirudora is his strongest move. Whatever ability the eight gate grants him is irrelevant, as it kills him.



> samehada wouldn't have made a difference in that fight.


Samehada possesses healing abilities so yes it very well could have.



> And you neglected to mention that Gai was handicapped by two factors.
> 
> 1.he had to simultaneously fight Kiasame and get the scroll.


They went hand in hand and Kisame was focused more on getting the scroll away then fighting Gai. Its not as if the scroll was going off in one direction and Kisame was in the other attacking him, if it was you'd have a point. That was not the case though as Kisame's Senjikizame was both to attack Gai and hide the scroll, so Gai only had to do one move to both "fight" Kisame and get the scroll. Hirudora has a large AOE, so he was both "fighting" Kisame and getting the scroll at the same time.



> 2 he was fighting on Kisame's turf.


Kisame can make almost any environment his turf using Bakusui Shouha.


----------



## Hossaim (Sep 1, 2012)

Gai:

TBH, Gai is not at all the strongest on that tier. I think Kisame and Deidara are both stronger than Gai. Gai just happens to be a Kisame counter, but generally Kisame is stronger. Deidara would destroy Gai in so many ways, Kakuzu would blow him away with those insane elemental attacks. Even with gates, I don't think Gai can be moved up. 

*Vote: A-*

Inochi:
What is Inochi doing there with fodder chunin? This guy is a konoha elite. He's sensing and telepathy alone make him hugely valuable to any team. 

*Vote: B-*
Shisui:

Shiushi has a hax as fuck one shot jutsu. if it's not on recharge he solos the entire tier list. The problem is it's recharge is so fucking long its ridiculous. He can use it maybe 3-5 times in his life. But he is hyped to have other really hax stuff. Id say nudge him up a bit. 

*Vote: A*
Jirobo: He could easilly fodderize Obito, Ino, exct. Move him up to C, where he belongs.

*Vote: C*


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 1, 2012)

_Inoichi_

Hes a fairly high ranking Jonin with excellent sensing skills. The one time we did see him fight he was rather easily dealing with the invading Sound ninja. I wouldn't put him up there with the elite Jonins in power but he deserves to be just below.

*Vote: B-*

_Shisui_

He had an ability that could defeat almost anyone but it was a once a decade kind of move, so its an ability that he'd very rarely be able to use/want to use. He does have a quite a good deal of hype outside of KA though not enough to where I'd put him up there with guys like Oro, Jiraiya, Sakumo, Mu, etc.

*Vote: A-*

_Jirobo_

While portrayed as the weakest of the sound 4 its not significant enough to put him on a lower tier. Remember that the guy was handling all of the SRA squad pretty well just by himself, he rather had the upper hand while they were all still there though that would have quickly changed had they all stayed. 

*Vote: C*


----------



## Sferr (Sep 1, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> It truly is, this may as well be the BD for all the care portrayal gets(hell a good deal of the BD posters take portrayal into account more then people are here). Gai being portrayed as a level below SM Naruto? Doesn't matter. Gai also being below Jiraiya due to him being a SM user like Naruto who was portrayed as above Gai? Doesn't matter. Kisame being Gai's main opponent throughout the series and him needing his strongest abilities to defeat handicapped Kisame's, with him never defeating a Kisame that was at full power? Doesn't matter. Kisame being portrayed as below the Sannin and therefore Gai who is on Kisame's level also being below the Sannin? Doesn't matter.
> 
> The only portrayal that does seem to matter to the Gai supporters is that Kakashi and Gai are rivals. Seems it only matters when it benefits their argument.
> 
> If portrayal doesn't matter on this tier list then it is pointless for the Library to have one separate from the BD.


That's all is based on interpretation. Everyone reads manga a bit differently or else we wouldn't have a situation where basically every poster has his own tier list that is different from others. What you have just written about portrayals is your opinion. Opinions tend to differ.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 1, 2012)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Gai in relation to the A tier...
> 
> Naruto was said to have surpassed Gai's rival Kakashi during the Immortals Arc. After that, he mastered SM, learned how to throw FRS, use Frog Katas,  learned how to summon the Ni Dai Sennin, Gamaken, Gamahiro, and how to control Gamabunta. SM Naruto with outside assistance was able to defeat Pein. Pein was stated to be so far above Gai that Gai would only be a liability against him. He was also roughly equal to MS Sasuke. SM Naruto was certainly a level above Gai.



Well, this is not very accurate. Why? 

Because, Naruto never defeated Pain in a one on one battle. It's a fact that Deva path stomped him and KN6 once it came into play. It's another fact that Naruto had intel and Pain was sending his paths one on one even and not going for the kill.

SM Naruto is not in the level of Pain.

And as for Katsuyu's comment. People forgive the word but is complete bullshit. Why? Do you really believe that a tired and almost dead Deva path would beat Gated Gai + Gated Lee, Neji, Tenten AND SM Naruto there? Never in hell.

Clearly Katsuyu was just giving Naruto this fight. Or, is the most dumb summon.


----------



## timmysblood (Sep 1, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> She said he'd be in Naruto's way and to suggest that Gai is on SM Naruto's level is to suggest Kakashi is as well. Kakashi with back-up lost to 1/6 Deva whereas Naruto fought the majority of the Pain bodies and eventually defeated a 100% Deva(albeit with some assistance due to the Kyuubi rampage saving him when he was beat). Going by portrayal wind-arc Naruto is>Kakashi though that statement can be implied to be mainly talking about him being able to do what Kakashi, Minato and Jiraiya could not and upgrade the Rasengan to the next level, even still if WA Naruto wasn't portrayed as above Kakashi, SM Naruto was.



Kakashi has obviously improved since then, so the comparison doesn't work there.

She said Gai would get in the way , then says she think Naruto has a plan which clearly means she think Gai would get in the way of Naruto's plan which really doesn't say much about Gai's power.






WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Hirudora is his strongest move. Whatever ability the eight gate grants him is irrelevant, as it kills him.



This is weird logic, so Minato's strongest move is rasengan since death god doesn't count?

Deidera's strongest move is c4 since his suicide explosion doesn't count?

This is the first time I've ever heard this logic, and it doesn't really make sense, a strong move is a strong move, if it kills you then that's a definite draw back, but it's still your strongest move.







WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Samehada possesses healing abilities so yes it very well could have.




Only if Samehada had of obtained chakra beforehand and Gai let Kisame heal while he stood there and did nothing. Both of which wouldn't happen.






WolfPrinceKiba said:


> They went hand in hand and Kisame was focused more on getting the scroll away then fighting Gai. Its not as if the scroll was going off in one direction and Kisame was in the other attacking him, if it was you'd have a point. That was not the case though as Kisame's Senjikizame was both to attack Gai and hide the scroll, so Gai only had to do one move to both "fight" Kisame and get the scroll. Hirudora has a large AOE, so he was both "fighting" Kisame and getting the scroll at the same time.
> 
> 
> Kisame can make almost any environment his turf using Bakusui Shouha.




Which kind of goes with my Samehada wouldn't matter point, yes technically not having Samehada is a handicap.But it really doesn't make a big difference unless your opponent is Jin or has a lot of chakra.

Also, saying Kisame can make any environment his terf negates the handicap is like saying that fighting Gaara in the desert isn't a handicap because he can grind more, or fighting yamato in the forest isn't a handicap because he can grow trees.Yes they can all make any enviroment more suitable to them but it's still advantageous  for them to start there.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 1, 2012)

Sferr said:


> That's all is based on interpretation. Everyone reads manga a bit differently or else we wouldn't have a situation where basically every poster has his own tier list that is different from others. What you have just written about portrayals is your opinion. Opinions tend to differ.


There are ambiguous statements throughout the manga where I am very accepting of alternate opinions, Gai's portrayal however is rather quite clear as we have quite a good deal of match results and statements to work off of, not many of which are all that open to interpretation.


----------



## Immortal (Sep 1, 2012)

I don't understand how Gai fans can be so offended by being on the same tier as Sasori, Gaara and Kakuzu.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 1, 2012)

Sferr said:


> But wasn't the point of everything to create a tier list by the entire Konoha Library? I don't really get why it should be that hard for a character to leave his tier where he was placed in the op. That tier list wasn't created by regular voting, why it should be treated like it is was a one true tier list. I agree with averaging system but it should be more liberal. Or else the idea behind this thread is losing its point.


I am open to making the averaging system more "liberal", but the original averaging system is something that everyone was fine with when things started and voted for. So it is something agree on by the library. 

However with that said, the reason I find it more sensible to leave it the way it is now and than give extensions, in the case of characters like Gai who end up right on the margin, is because I believe it's a better reflection of the libraries majority opinion.

For example before we had 25 people who voted on Gai. 11 had placed him in A- Tier, while 14 people placed him in A Tier. That means the majority is only established by 3 votes or to put it another way it is only established by 6%. That's a very slim margin to say it is "something agreed on by the library". 

However now with the 24 hour extension we have 35 people who voted for Gai and 22 people voted for A Tier, while only 13 people voted (Don't sue me if these numbers are wrong I haven't double checked them, I will when I do the actual final tally) for  A- Tier. So now the majority is actually established by 9 votes and or 26%. Now we have a much better majority established. 

Yes the current formula makes it harder for a character to move up a tier, but the pro to the current formula is that it forces a much bigger majority to form and thus its a better reflection of the prevailing opinion of the library, rather than another format where a 3 person difference (or less) can decide the vote. 

I think this pro out weighs the con, but like I said if people show interest I will put an alternate system up for vote, after this next round of characters. However I would caution people to first consider, the idea of ending up in a minority in future votes where there vote is completely ignored because 2 people vote another way.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 1, 2012)

timmysblood said:


> Kakashi has obviously improved since then, so the comparison doesn't work there.


Obviously improved? Its been only a couple of months since the Pain arc, so I don't know why people insist on acting as if its been a long time since then. He could have improved a small amount but hes no Naruto, he is not going to significantly improve within that short of a time span.




> This is weird logic, so Minato's strongest move is rasengan since death god doesn't count?
> 
> Deidera's strongest move is c4 since his suicide explosion doesn't count?
> 
> This is the first time I've ever heard this logic, and it doesn't really make sense, a strong move is a strong move, if it kills you then that's a definite draw back, but it's still your strongest move.


I'm amazed its the first time you've ever heard the argument. The logic behind it is that if you have to use a suicidal move to defeat someone, that means you couldn't win otherwise. That means you could only draw or lose to the opponent that forces you to do it, whereas the one forcing you to do it either wins or draws. Using a suicidal technique is proof of inferiority to whoever you use it against. Theres also the fact that its not a regular part of ones repertoire due to its absolute drawback of death, unlike other double-edged swords like MS. Its not a general part of ones power.




> Only if Samehada had of obtained chakra beforehand and Gai let Kisame heal while he stood there and did nothing. Both of which wouldn't happen.


Samahada heals quite fast and you don't think Samehada has any chakra stored within itself?





> Which kind of goes with my Samehada wouldn't matter point, yes technically not having Samehada is a handicap.But it really doesn't make a big difference unless your opponent is Jin or has a lot of chakra.


It can absorb most ninjutsu and can heal Kisame, it matters against the majority of opponents. Gai just happens to specialize in taijutsu, making him bad match-up for Kisame. 



> Also, saying Kisame can make any environment his terf negates the handicap is like saying that fighting Gaara in the desert isn't a handicap because he can grind more, or fighting yamato in the forest isn't a handicap because he can grow trees.Yes they can all make any enviroment more suitable to them but it's still advantageous  for them to start there.


Kisame spits out a lake much faster than Gaara can create a desert or Yamato a forest.


----------



## Sferr (Sep 1, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> There are ambiguous statements throughout the manga where I am very accepting of alternate opinions, Gai's portrayal however is rather quite clear as we have quite a good deal of match results and statements to work off of, not many of which are all that open to interpretation.



Gai is undefeated and was never really pushed to his limits until the multiple bijuudama situation. And the only not outdated statement where he was downgraded was Katsuyu's statement and it itself is pretty vague and open to interpretation too. So I don't really get from where it is clear about where you think he is.


----------



## Deadway (Sep 1, 2012)

Gai needs to be pushed up to category A. Latest feats allow him to pop the 6th gate without fatigue problems or delay, that alone puts him above basically everyone in category A-.

Madara should also tier with The great Sage, not even shitting you. The author said he's nearly invincible with no weaknesses.

Other than that everything seems fine....well...

A+
Hiruzen (Prime)
Tobi (Pre Rinnegan)
*Killer Bee* ?
Naruto (Pre-BM)
Pain Rikudo
*Itachi* ?

You get the point.


----------



## timmysblood (Sep 1, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Obviously improved? Its been only a couple of months since the Pain arc, so I don't know why people insist on acting as if its been a long time since then. He could have improved a small amount but hes no Naruto, he is not going to significantly improve within that short of a time span.




Time span doesn't really matter, characters an take years too improve very little or weeks to improve a lot.

For example the difference between Naruto at the end of part one and at the beginning of part 2 isn't that large for two years, but the difference between sm Naruto and base Naruto is a lot for a little time frame.


My obviously improved is also based off of feats.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I'm amazed its the first time you've ever heard the argument. The logic behind it is that if you have to use a suicidal move to defeat someone, that means you couldn't win otherwise. That means you could only draw or lose to the opponent that forces you to do it, whereas the one forcing you to do it either wins or draws. Using a suicidal technique is proof of inferiority to whoever you use it against. Theres also the fact that its not a regular part of ones repertoire due to its absolute drawback of death, unlike other double-edged swords like MS. Its not a general part of ones power.



I agree if you use a suicidal move against someone you couldn't have win otherwise.I disagree it means inferiority to the person you used it against, since I considered it still part of that's persons power even if you can only use it once in a life time.

You can say it's really not but it's kind of semantic argument anyhow. 




WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Samahada heals quite fast and you don't think Samehada has any chakra stored within itself?



It heals quite fast, but not as fast as I think 7 gate Gai would reach Kisame. 

Also yeah Samehada has chakra in it, or else it couldn't live but I don't think it usually has enough to heal Kisame, this is based on the fact that both times Kisame has healed with samehada it's absorbed a lot of chakra before hand. 

Also if Kisame wasn't fused samehada and Kisame could hundreds of meters apart from the explosion from Hindora which mess up the healing plan.And since Samehada is alive wouldn't it hurt it as well?





WolfPrinceKiba said:


> It can absorb most ninjutsu and can heal Kisame, it matters against the majority of opponents. Gai just happens to specialize in taijutsu, making him bad match-up for Kisame.



He doesn't really match up badly, he just doesn't match up well.All of Kisame's techniques can still hurt Gai and it's not like Gai's magically counter Kisame's techs like raiton counters donton.

It's just Gai doesn't have a tremendous amount of chakra or use ninjutsu , which Kisame is well suited for. Kisame is still good against people who don't use it , just not as good.





WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Kisame spits out a lake much faster than Gaara can create a desert or Yamato a forest.


Faster then Gaara yes, faster then Yamato not really.


----------



## Lee-Sensei (Sep 1, 2012)

> There are ambiguous statements throughout the manga where I am very accepting of alternate opinions, Gai's portrayal however is rather quite clear as we have quite a good deal of match results and statements to work off of, not many of which are all that open to interpretation.



Gai's been fighting Tobi with Naruto, Kakashi and Kirabi without being a burden. So the statement of a Slug really doesn't mean much here. It was a way for Kishi to keep Gai out of the fight because... it was Naruto's fight.


----------



## Immortal (Sep 1, 2012)

Isn't the discussion on Gai over?


----------



## Lee-Sensei (Sep 1, 2012)

^I don't know, but they were still discussing him.


----------



## Wizard (Sep 1, 2012)

Shishui: A-, his hype is very good. known for the body flicker, and also had awakened the mangekyo sharingan. however the reason he isn't A or A+ is because koto is pretty much a two time jutsu. and Danzo was able to succeed in stealing the sharingan and the Kiri guy lived to tell the tale.

Jirobo: C-, he has shown incredible strength and also has nice abilities in chakra absorption and was able to give 2 pill choji a beating. he is definitely stronger than Karin who is the C- tier as well. He also was able to beat up 2 jonins (with the help of the others of course).

Inoichi: B-, really good at mind techniques but really isn't hyped that much. Sure he is part of a really good team (Ino-Shika-Cho) but really hasn't been hyped to have anything special in the physical prowess department. And he hasn't shown any.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 1, 2012)

The 24 Extension on Gai's vote is over. He will advance to A Tier. So everyone let's end the discussion on Gai.

On Topic: Inoichi, Jirōbō, Shisui

*Jirōbō*
I think that Jirōbō should be placed on the same tier with the rest of his fellow Sound 4. I could see an argument being made for him being the weakest Sound 4 and thus belonging on C- Tier, but certainly not 2 tiers bellow the other Sound 4. However personally I think Jirōbō has some great strength feats and was skilled with Doton, so I lean towards him being on the same tier as the other Sound 4.

*Vote: C *

*Inoichi*
Inoichi should be on the same tier as his fellow members of Ino-Shika-Cho imo. I could see an argument made for him being the weakest since he parallel's ino, but he certainly shouldn't be 2 tiers bellow the other 2 members. So I'd say at least C+ Tier, but I lean towards the same tier.

So *Vote: B- *

*Shisui*
Shisui's speed is hyped even among the Uchiha, he had Mangekyo Sharingan, and was hyped as the greatest genjutsu user in the Uchiha. I can't see any reason he should not be placed on at least A Tier. However given the sheer Hax of Kotoamatsukami, I believe he should probably be placed a bit higher than that on A+ tier.

So *Vote: A+*


----------



## Wizard (Sep 1, 2012)

changed my voting for Inoichi from B+ to B-


----------



## Turrin (Sep 1, 2012)

Wizard said:


> changed my voting for Inoichi from B+ to B-


Can you edit this into your original post, so I don't miss it?


----------



## Immortal (Sep 1, 2012)

The tiers C - D- are such a mess imo and I'm not sure how the best way to fix it is.

I'm really not sure if this three person at a time thing is really the best way to go, especially with the lowest tiers. 

I mean, the C- tier is being a completely wasted tier, and the C tier is really cluttered. 

Zaku, Yoroi and Rin should all be on the lowest tier. Iruka and Mizuki should be on the same tier, meaning that Iruka should probably be bumped down a tier. Bump Obito down to D, and then have all three of the characters on C- move to D+, except for maybe Ino. Now we'd get to split the cluttered C tier into two, and the bottom tiers look more correct imo. 

Resulting in this 


*Spoiler*: __ 




*C Tier*
Kidomaru
Sakon/Ukon
Haku

*C - Tier*

Atsui
Jirobo
Tayuya
Hyuuga Hinata
Aoba
Omoi

*D+ Tier*
Ino
Karin
TenTen
Karui
Gekko Hayate
Shiranui Genma

*D Tier*

Uchiha Obito
Umino Iruka
Maki
Dosu
Konohamaru
Mizuki
Maki

*D- Tier*

Zaku Abumi
Yoroi Akadō
Rin
Demon Brothers
Kin Tsuchi
Misumi Tsurugi 
Oobro Brothers​


 

Which I think we can all agree is a bit better. Then we could look at the next tier, C+, and potentially move characters like Kiba and Baki down to C. It just seems easier to move the pieces on the bottom while you're looking at the entire thing and not just piece by piece.

My point is that I couldn't really think about where to just place Hinata if I believe that Zaku, Iruka and Ino are all misplaced as well. I believe that working from the bottom to the top of the list really is the easiest and most beneficial way to go, but I understand that if we went tier by tier when we eventually get to the top it's going to be a shit storm. 

Perhaps it would just be best to go tier by tier for the bottom half or so of the list, and then revert back to this three character at a time thing. Or perhaps I'm making something out of nothing, food for thought I suppose.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 1, 2012)

A- is the biggest problem, especially now that Gai has moved up. For there to be any kind of balance I'm going to have to ignore Gai's presence on the tier above else I'll be voting for basically all of A- to be moved up.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 1, 2012)

This all could be avoided if we allow other people to become S+ Tier. We should have just worked our way down


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 1, 2012)

I agree with Turin on A+ shisui.


----------



## Immortal (Sep 1, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> A- is the biggest problem, especially now that Gai has moved up. For there to be any kind of balance I'm going to have to ignore Gai's presence on the tier above else I'll be voting for basically all of A- to be moved up.



Yes, I agree. And I believe that this is a testament as to why we should change the way we're voting/changing things.


----------



## timmysblood (Sep 1, 2012)

So Gai only had to get 93+ to be put in A tier?

Dose the same principal work for others tiers as well, e.g. Inoichi would only have to be 88+ to be put in A- tier?


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Sep 1, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Hirudora is his strongest move. Whatever ability the eight gate grants him is irrelevant, as it kills him.



Suicidal moves don't count in tier lists? So, I'm guessing Minato's Shiki Fujin, and thus his defeat of Kurama, has zero relevance in his tier ranking?



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Samehada possesses healing abilities so yes it very well could have.



Abilities it has only shown with stolen chakras. And with potent and copious quantities of Bijuu chakra at that.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> They went hand in hand and Kisame was focused more on getting the scroll away then fighting Gai.



Wait, what? Kisame only needed _*one*_ shark to get away. He made _*one thousand*_ or so with _*zero*_ grasp in mind of the AoE that Gai was capable of when a mere *hundred*  or two with the oceanic advantage that lets them swim away in literally any  direction would have been more than enough against all but the  one-percenter's of the Narutoverse.

Bottom right, middle panel. He actually used the remaining sharks, after seeing a thousand of them vaporized in a few instants and seeing how Gai could create Suiton-disintegrating vortexes as Shouten Kisame to attempt to chomp on Gai.

Not only was he being a remarkable idiot, he didn't make more sharks to try cover them or anything. When Gai opened the 7th Gate and had a "chakra" that forced back the water, what does Kisame do? He fires a chakra-eating water shark.

Everything there suggests more a desire to disable Gai than to actually let the scroll get away. And even if he did place protection on the scroll, between having two Jinchuuriki on the island, it only got away by sheer PIS as to why Killer B didn't just go v1/v2 or BM to break the water prison and go after it. He did it despite being shaved multiple times with Samehada against Killer B for this to be of any use.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Its not as if the scroll was going off in one direction and Kisame was in the other attacking him, if it was you'd have a point.



Then Kisame's intelligence becomes greatly suspect.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> That was not the case though as Kisame's Senjikizame was both to attack Gai and hide the scroll, so Gai only had to do one move to both "fight" Kisame and get the scroll. Hirudora has a large AOE, so he was both "fighting" Kisame and getting the scroll at the same time.



"so Gai only had to do one move"...? 

I'm very curious how you imply that moves with the AoE to literally blast Kisame out of the _*ocean*_ while hiding behind a chakra-eating monolithic wall of water in the shape of a shark that dwarfs Kisame reminiscent of how much a Boss Summon dwarfs a human being alongside the handful of sharks swimming around it are as commonplace.

How many people in the A-, A and even A+ tier can "both "fight" Kisame and get the scroll" by "only having to do one move"?



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Kisame can make almost any environment his turf using Bakusui Shouha.



Since this is WPK, I will give the benefit of the doubt and ask: Are you disregarding the boon of a Suiton user having an endless and inexhaustible supply of water as irrelevant simply because Kisame can produce a tiny lake?

Just my 2 cents,
Kenpachi TZ.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Sep 1, 2012)

Inoichi is a well known Jonin, an excellent sensor, a skilled telepath (or something), and we have seen him easily deal with fodder during Orochimaru's invasion. He is the head of the Inoichi clan and a member of the legendary formation Ino-Shika-Cho. I'll give him B-.

Jirobou was a chuunin, but was weaker than special Jonin like Genma. He was also the weakest of the Sound 4. He was still stronger than part one Chouji, and he had a nice Doton. I think I'll give him a C. 

Shishui I would rather not grade. We don't know anything about him other than that he was fast, had a one shot technique, and was still somehow defeated or overwhelmed by Danzo. I have no idea where to rank him.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 1, 2012)

*A-* for Shisui.

What we know of Shisui is that he is very fast and has the strongest genjutsu but he lost against Danzo and fought Ao (Failed to kill him).

If Ao didn't survive and Shisui didn't get defeated by Danzo I would have ranked him in A+ tier. But because of his battle record, I wouldn't place him anywhere near Itachi. 

Itachi clearly surpassed him based on story/character portrayal.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 1, 2012)

timmysblood said:


> So Gai only had to get 93+ to be put in A tier?
> 
> Dose the same principal work for others tiers as well, e.g. Inoichi would only have to be 88+ to be put in A- tier?



No he needs a 90 to be put in A- Tier. 88 is B+. Just remember the grades you got in school and you'll get the system.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> *A-* for Shisui.
> 
> What we know of Shisui is that he is very fast and has the strongest genjutsu but he lost against Danzo and fought Ao (Failed to kill him).
> 
> ...



Dude Deidara survived his fight with Itachi, does that mean Itachi should be ranked A-? Or more extremely, Kakuzu survived against Hashirama, does that mean he should be ranked A-? 

He lost his eye to Danzo, but we don't know the circumstances of that battle. Did Danzo have other root members helping him. Did Shisui have both MS recharged? Etc...


----------



## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Sep 1, 2012)

I agree with the above, Itachi did seem to look UP to Shisui as a superior, but that was a long time ago, have to say though Danzo is pretty tough, would likely have had backup and was fighting a one eyed dude. Ao was off pannel, in fact they both were but judging from danzos proclivities to stack the decks I find that likely.
He was reknowned for his speed, and genjutsu above even Itachi who is a beast in both fields, but again this was long ago, however only one other person from Konoha had a name pertaining to their speed and they became a hokage and and were the fastest person seemingly of all time until now, or certainly up there. Not saying he is Minato tier, but to earn such a name implies great speed. 
A-

Inochi should be C+ he has no noteworthy feats, his hype is merely being the head of a family of people reknowned for being supporting cast members.
The fact he is within intellegence in the war says a lot, most people of note are on the field, you would certainly hope all capable fighters would be out there. 
Futhermore correct me if it was filler but he was running from animal path pein and her summons, he also had backup. Now granted animal path is no joke but to have back up and still be running from a fighter that shouldn't merrit more then a B says a lot.


----------



## Wizard (Sep 1, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Can you edit this into your original post, so I don't miss it?



I had the same reasoning but by accident I put down B+. But I changed it in the original post yeah.


----------



## Jad (Sep 2, 2012)

*Shisui:* He has one haxed jutsu, that takes 10 years to recharge. I'd rate him a shit deal higher if it was only for a week or few days. I am sorry, but hype on his level is not enough for me to rate him higher, I see him below Mifune. On par with him if I really wanted to force it, but I value feats over hype. It's only when their hype is stressed in the manga, and compared with other ninja's do I reconsider. If the likes of Asuma who I bet, if we never saw fight but just heard hype around him, by putting his "12 Guardians" title on a high peddle stool, we'd probably vote him in a pretty high tier as well. I say Shisui was probably an elite Jounin, probably in the same leagues as Itachi's father. It's too difficult to rank a person on hype, and it isn't fair, unless again, they are stressed of their hype in the manga. I am going to be honest, I am being a bit of a hypocrite, even though I put in my tier list, Kakashi's father, the white fang, on pure hype, I really dislike it. It's unfair for the other characters who have feats that are probably better, but ranked lower because of loosely based hype on other characters such as Shisui.

*Vote:* B Tier

I vote that we do one of two things;
- Either we don't include people who have had NO fights in the manga (unless they are hyped soo high, for example, but not on the same level, Hashirama).
-We vote them in a tier, and we still place them, but we don't give them a number. For example;

(By the way, this is just an example, not somewhere I would rank Shisui. Although if I imagine him as a character, he'd be somewhere nearing or close to these guys levels).
*15.* Mifune
*16.* Asuma
Shisui (That way we aren't knocking down a character with feats, but we still think we know where this character is placed, so it shows sort of a guess on their abilities).​*17.* Zabuza


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 2, 2012)

Jad said:


> *Shisui:* He has one haxed jutsu, that takes 10 years to recharge. I'd rate him a shit deal higher if it was only for a week or few days. I am sorry, but hype on his level is not enough for me to rate him higher, I see him below Mifune. On par with him if I really wanted to force it, but I value feats over hype. It's only when their hype is stressed in the manga, and compared with other ninja's do I reconsider. If the likes of Asuma who I bet, if we never saw fight but just heard hype around him, by putting his "12 Guardians" title on a high peddle stool, we'd probably vote him in a pretty high tier as well. I say Shisui was probably an elite Jounin, probably in the same leagues as Itachi's father. It's too difficult to rank a person on hype, and it isn't fair, unless again, they are stressed of their hype in the manga. I am going to be honest, I am being a bit of a hypocrite, even though I put in my tier list, Kakashi's father, the white fang, on pure hype, I really dislike it. It's unfair for the other characters who have feats that are probably better, but ranked lower because of loosely based hype on other characters such as Shisui.
> 
> *Vote:* B Tier
> 
> ...



oh lord, Shisui was portrayed to be Ms Itachi level(as a 13 year old), with more genjutsu hype, and speed hype. Itachi is a top tier in speed/reactions himself and soloed Oro at 13. There is no way anyone under A- Tier is touching him and the lowest he deserves is in the A- Tier. Niether Asuma Zabuza  or mifune have the genjutsu feats to beat him and Mifune himself was caught in Koto


----------



## Immortal (Sep 2, 2012)

Yeah bro, B tier is pretty low. Kinda just seems like you're voting that because you know it'll make the average go down more. I bet even you think he deserves at least B+


----------



## Turrin (Sep 2, 2012)

Jad said:


> *Shisui:* He has one haxed jutsu, that takes 10 years to recharge. I'd rate him a shit deal higher if it was only for a week or few days. I am sorry, but hype on his level is not enough for me to rate him higher, I see him below Mifune. On par with him if I really wanted to force it, but I value feats over hype. It's only when their hype is stressed in the manga, and compared with other ninja's do I reconsider. If the likes of Asuma who I bet, if we never saw fight but just heard hype around him, by putting his "12 Guardians" title on a high peddle stool, we'd probably vote him in a pretty high tier as well. I say Shisui was probably an elite Jounin, probably in the same leagues as Itachi's father. It's too difficult to rank a person on hype, and it isn't fair, unless again, they are stressed of their hype in the manga. I am going to be honest, I am being a bit of a hypocrite, even though I put in my tier list, Kakashi's father, the white fang, on pure hype, I really dislike it. It's unfair for the other characters who have feats that are probably better, but ranked lower because of loosely based hype on other characters such as Shisui.
> 
> *Vote:* B Tier


you realize that were including hype right



Immortal said:


> Yeah bro, B tier is pretty low. Kinda just seems like you're voting that because you know it'll make the average go down more. I bet even you think he deserves at least B+


Even B+ is ridiculous the dude has been hyped for the best Genjutsu in the uchiha clan and has MS.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Sep 2, 2012)

Jad said:


> *Shisui:* He has one haxed jutsu, that takes 10 years to recharge. I'd rate him a shit deal higher if it was only for a week or few days. I am sorry, but hype on his level is not enough for me to rate him higher, I see him below Mifune. On par with him if I really wanted to force it, but I value feats over hype.



We've already seen Shishui's eye one shot Mifune.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 2, 2012)

*Inoichi:* C
I don't see Inoichi as a fighter so I think he is right in tier C. He doesn't have many feats and his hype are nothing to do with combat. 

*Jirobo:* C+
Jirobo has good doton jutsu's and strength. All the sound 4 should be in the same tier. 



Turrin said:


> No he needs a 90 to be put in A- Tier. 88 is B+. Just remember the grades you got in school and you'll get the system.



The grading system in your school will differ against other people's school. 



> Dude Deidara survived his fight with Itachi, does that mean Itachi should be ranked A-? Or more extremely, Kakuzu survived against Hashirama, does that mean he should be ranked A-?
> 
> He lost his eye to Danzo, but we don't know the circumstances of that battle. Did Danzo have other root members helping him. Did Shisui have both MS recharged? Etc...



Both Itachi and Hashirama had reasons to let their opponent live. I can't think of any reason why Shisui would want to let Ao live when they fought. So the most logical assumption is that he either lost, retreated or the match was draw and this works against Ao as well. 

The circumstances against his fight with Danzo is unknown, but given his hype (Speed and Genjutsu) you would have thought he could have escaped without a scratch but he lost an eye. The strongest member in root is Sai and his no where near tier A-. So even if Danzo had back up it wouldn't have made a difference.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 2, 2012)

If Shisui was truly A+ tier level then (pre Sharingan) Danzo with fodder Root should not have even been able to touch Shisui 

I've said it before, one haxx jutsu should not make one A+ tier. Otherwise we can start ranking Hidan as A tier as well 
Overall skills and well versed in different areas should be the crucial factor

Same reason I consider Shisui A-
Also the reason I consider Gai A- and Kakashi A tier


----------



## Rain (Sep 2, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Both Itachi and Hashirama had reasons to let their opponent live. I can't think of any reason why Shisui would want to let Ao live when they fought. So the most logical assumption is that he either lost, retreated or the match was draw and this works against Ao as well.
> 
> The circumstances against his fight with Danzo is unknown, but given his hype (Speed and Genjutsu) you would have thought he could have escaped without a scratch but he lost an eye. The strongest member in root is Sai and his no where near tier A-. So even if Danzo had back up it wouldn't have made a difference.





From what we saw Shisui was a pacifist, just like Itachi. Why would he kill if he can win fight/extract info without killing someone.

Naruto also pretty much never kills his archenemies either.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 2, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> The grading system in your school will differ against other people's school.


It's essentially this:



Except I needed to change the top part to incorporated A+ - S+ tiers. 



> Both Itachi and Hashirama had reasons to let their opponent live. I can't think of any reason why Shisui would want to let Ao live when they fought. So the most logical assumption is that he either lost, retreated or the match was draw and this works against Ao as well.


What reason did Hashirama have to let Kakuzu live? What reason did Itachi have to let Orochimaru live?



hitokugutsu said:


> If Shisui was truly A+ tier level then (pre Sharingan) Danzo with fodder Root should not have even been able to touch Shisui
> 
> I've said it before, one haxx jutsu should not make one A+ tier. Otherwise we can start ranking Hidan as A tier as well
> Overall skills and well versed in different areas should be the crucial factor
> ...


Danzo probably did have Sharingan when he fought Shisui. In the Kabuto flashback Danzo already had bandages on his eye. Also Danzo could have ambushed Shisui and whose to say the root he had with him were fodder.


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 2, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Again this tier list takes a holistic view so feats do indeed count, but so does what your talking about it. It should all be considered together.



Yeah, and how is that shit working out?

People have voted Guy to be on A tier.

Do you see why I don't bother EVER thinking about feats, or encouraging their usage? People have voted Guy to be on Jiraiya's tier; *that's an abomination*.

We might as well merge the 2 tier threads. It should not "all be considered together," because feats are what have created this retarded judgment.

I saw Santoryu create a post where he said Kakashi should be moved up a tier rather than down......so, why am I in the Konoha Library yet feel like I'm in the Battledome? Because you like feats, so you include them, and now this tier list is garbage. Thanks for your impartial input on this project.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 2, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Yeah, and how is that shit working out?
> 
> People have voted Guy to be on A tier.
> 
> ...


They voted Gai on A Tier not due to feats, but due more to what you we're talking about, I.E. their interpretation of portrayal. 

Also going off just feats I can't see any rational argument made for Gai being on A Tier, but if I put feats aside, than I can say well maybe he could be due to the hype of 8th Gate.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 2, 2012)

Minato, and Itachi will surely be fun projects, for this tier list.

Btw Turrin there could def be a case made for Gai to be in the A Tier


----------



## InfusionZ (Sep 2, 2012)

Kakashi should be 1 tier higher...


----------



## Kanki (Sep 2, 2012)

Don't see what the 'looking up' stuff has to do with anything. In life, Itachi looked up to Shisui before he had MS so it's probable that he was weaker than him. After Shisui died Itachi probably surpassed him but that doesn't mean the respect lessened over time. Naruto still looks up to Jiraiya and to a lesser extent, Kakashi, despite being stronger than both.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Sep 2, 2012)

Turrin said:


> They voted Gai on A Tier not due to feats, but due more to what you we're talking about, I.E. their interpretation of portrayal.
> 
> Also going off just feats I can't see any rational argument made for Gai being on A Tier, but if I put feats aside, than I can say well maybe he could be due to the hype of 8th Gate.



I'm not sure if I saw anyone arguing in favor of Gai based on his portrayal. Almost every post mentioned that he had the Gates on for a long time against Tobi, and tried to claim that Gai would beat everyone in his tier.

I know the voting for Gai is over, but the entire tier list is messed up now because of Kakashi and Gai's position relative to the Akatsuki members in the A- tier.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 2, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Danzo probably did have Sharingan when he fought Shisui. In the Kabuto flashback Danzo already had bandages on his eye. Also Danzo could have ambushed Shisui and whose to say the root he had with him were fodder.



Danzo right eye belonged to Shisui, also no Uchiha massacre back then happened so Danzo did not have some pile of Sharingans to choose from

And him having an bandaged eye does not even the slightest indicate that he had a Sharingan. Damaged eye most likely, not a sharingan

Also Root is mostly fodder. Sai was one of Root finest, same for Torune & Fu en Sai's brother
These guys are regular Jonins at best, nothing indicates they can handle Kage level opponents
If Shisui was A+ tier or even A tier I cant hostely seeing these ANBU making a difference. And Danzo was not that powerfull back then


----------



## Ptolemy (Sep 2, 2012)

*Shisui B+*

Shisui basically has three things to hype him; the fact that he awakened mangekyo sharingan, the fact that that he was called the best genjutsu user in konoha, and his label of shisui of the body flicker. Whilst impressive, none of this justifies him a place with people on the A tier. Shisui of the body flicker is too vague to let us know anything about his strength; just that he was famous, but so are many weaker people. The best genjutsu user in konoha likely refers to him with his mangekyo sharingan abilities, which as far as we know, can only be used once (for each eye) every ten years without senju DNA, thus I don't really consider them part of his overall power. Mangekyo Sharingan is impressive, but it was also done by Kakashi at the beginning of part two - who most people probably wouldn't place as high as the current Kakashi. 

Overall, what I'm imagining when I see Shisui is an Itachi-esque fighter, but one without the one shot power of Tsukuyomi, Amareterasu & Susano, which I think cripples him. If someone could convince me that he could use Susano, I'd probably place him on the A tier, but as it stands, no.


*Jirobi C-*
This placement is hard simply because I think the C tier is really screwed up. However, we know that Genma + Radou can challenge the entire sound four, so I think the weakest member can't be on the same tier as genma. He is certaintly more impressive than either Iruka/Mizuki who are, as far as we can tell, 'standard' chunnin level. Hence, he should reside in the level between; C-. 


*Inoichi B-*
As a head of a Konoha clan he has the same level of hype as people like Hizashi, Chouza, Shikakku, ect which indicates he should be part of their tier. We know that he has telepathy, sensing and remote mind control, which in the hands of a competent fighter makes me think that he could be a serious threat - what's to stop him from completely dominating anyone that get's into his range? (especially the taijutsu users...?)


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 2, 2012)

Turrin said:


> They voted Gai on A Tier not due to feats, but due more to what you we're talking about, I.E. their interpretation of portrayal.
> 
> Also going off just feats I can't see any rational argument made for Gai being on A Tier, but if I put feats aside, than I can say well maybe he could be due to the hype of 8th Gate.



I just scanned back over some pages, and all I saw --as Orochimaruwantsyourbody has confirmed- was people saying "Gai would thrash everyone on his current tier," "Gai's stamina is amazing and he has great destructive power," "The masters are definitely above the current Gokage and maybe around Jiraiya's level," "Based on feats and logic, he could defeat X and Y," etc......

From the looks of it, every single person is using their own interpretation of _feats_ and hypothetical battles to come to their conclusion. 

Look, I don't have a problem with people being wrong -- I'm used to it on this forum. "Feats" are definitely just part of the Battledome-type reasoning, and this is the library. Some people don't even know that "hype" is being counted, and Dr. White said that a post I made about placement didn't have any reasoning while he (and others) go on to put Guy on Sakumo/Hanzou/Danzou/MS Sasuke/Jiraiya's tier. 

When I originally saw Kakashi's placement on A tier, I thought "Oh, well, we'll just have to fix that in the revisions." Now, I know that can *never* be fixed with this crowd. In fact, I've seen a number of people suggest that he should be higher.

Feats simply cannot be involved. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


----------



## Ptolemy (Sep 2, 2012)

Feats are part of potrayal though and hype alone will get you to run around in circles. 

With this system of tiers, you can't distinguish enough between characters using hype alone anyway - there's too many tiers.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 2, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> I just scanned back over some pages, and all I saw --as Orochimaruwantsyourbody has confirmed- was people saying "Gai would thrash everyone on his current tier," "Gai's stamina is amazing and he has great destructive power," "The masters are definitely above the current Gokage and maybe around Jiraiya's level," "Based on feats and logic, he could defeat X and Y," etc......
> 
> From the looks of it, every single person is using their own interpretation of _feats_ and hypothetical battles to come to their conclusion.
> 
> ...


And the main argument I saw was Gai should be in the same tier as Kakashi, due to their portrayal as rivals, therefore he is A Tier. As I and mods agreed this is a holistic approach, so feats are included (hypothetical battles shouldn't be included, there you are right, but there is nothing I can do to stop people from making up these things in their mind). There is little I can do to make it more clear to people that hype and portrayal are suppose to be considered equally alongside feats, considering I have stated it several times over in this thread.

As for Kakashi and Gai's specific placement, fact of the matter is that is the prevailing opinion of the library. We're not all going to agree on everyone's placement. I also don't think it's a major issue that those two are on A Tier. Kakashi has gained a-lot more experience with MS recently and Gai's 8th Gate has been hyped to high heavens.



hitokugutsu said:


> Danzo right eye belonged to Shisui, also no Uchiha massacre back then happened so Danzo did not have some pile of Sharingans to choose from
> 
> And him having an bandaged eye does not even the slightest indicate that he had a Sharingan. Damaged eye most likely, not a sharingan
> 
> ...


The face of the matter is you don't know the circumstance. We don't know if Danzo fought Shisui alone or if he had help. When Danzo set up the ambush of Nagato with Hanzo there were 22+ Anbu root there. So Shisui could have been ambushed by 22 Anbu Root + Danzo for all we know, which would be more than enough to defeat anyone on A Tier and potentially even A+.

I don't think Shisui's hype should be ignored just because under unknown circumstances Danzo (Anbu Root) managed to snag and eye from him.


----------



## Sferr (Sep 2, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> I just scanned back over some pages, and all I saw --as Orochimaruwantsyourbody has confirmed- was people saying "Gai would thrash everyone on his current tier," "Gai's stamina is amazing and he has great destructive power," "The masters are definitely above the current Gokage and maybe around Jiraiya's level," "Based on feats and logic, he could defeat X and Y," etc......
> 
> From the looks of it, every single person is using their own interpretation of _feats_ and hypothetical battles to come to their conclusion.
> 
> ...



Well, I am pretty sure nobody in the battledome is using feats-only policy in a way that they 'specially ignore' the portrayal of a certain character. Nobody in the battledome ignores the hype. But everyone interprets the hype and the portrayal of the characters differently. In the Battledome 'no hype only feats' arguments can be just translated as 'I don't agree with you'. I don't really think you can find a single poster whos opinion varies on the fact where he posts, in the Battledome or in the Library.

Battledome-dome type of thinking just doesn't exist, IMO that is called a difference in opinions and the only thing that we could do in this situation is to deal with it.


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 2, 2012)

Turrin said:
			
		

> And the main argument I saw was Gai should be in the same tier as Kakashi, due to their portrayal as rivals, therefore he is A Tier.



...yes, and what's the argument for Kakashi?

Hypotheticals and feats. It's 100% hypotheticals.



> As I and mods agreed this is a holistic approach, so feats are included (hypothetical battles shouldn't be included, there you are right, but there is nothing I can do to stop people from making up these things in their mind). There is little I can do to make it more clear to people that hype and portrayal are suppose to be considered equally alongside feats, considering I have stated it several times over in this thread.



I've told you the way to fix it. "Feats" are causing the problem. 

The second you open that door, even if it's only a little bit, you can't stop it all from flowing in. Like I've told you, several people are just hopping in here and don't know the difference between the Library and the Battledome. 

They scroll through the topic, and everyone is talking about feats, so they jump right in and do the same.

And people are not following a "holistic" approach if all they're talking about are feats. I haven't seen _anyone_ talk about Kakashi's statement about his strength compared to Base Naruto.



> As for Kakashi and Gai's specific placement, fact of the matter is that is the prevailing opinion of the library. We're not all going to agree on everyone's placement. I also don't think it's a major issue that those two are on A Tier. Kakashi has gained a-lot more experience with MS recently and Gai's 8th Gate has been hyped to high heavens.



I like to think they're stronger too, but I was thinking they were in the weaker half of A-, and even with that I was going out of my comfort zone a bit with giving them the benefit of the doubt and making my judgment without any statements/manga implications to back it up.

To put them in the A tier is an argument devoid of reasoning from the manga, and 100% based on hypotheticals.

Whatever. We'll see how the rest of the tier list goes. 



Sferr said:


> Well, I am pretty sure nobody in the battledome is using feats-only policy in a way that they 'specially ignore' the portrayal of a certain character. Nobody in the battledome ignores the hype. But everyone interprets the hype and the portrayal of the characters differently. In the Battledome 'no hype only feats' arguments can be just translated as 'I don't agree with you'. I don't really think you can find a single poster whos opinion varies on the fact where he posts, in the Battledome or in the Library.



Then why are there separate tier lists?

People in the battledome ignore hype all the time. To them, it's meaningless. To them, what matters is calculations and feats and hypotheticals based on those calculations and feats.

The way someone in the Library argues Kakashi's strength is to look at the statement he made about how he compares to base Naruto. The way someone in the Battledome argues his strength is about how fast they think Kakashi can Kamui someone's head off.

Ask in the library how strong Kakuzu is, and do so in the Battledome and see the responses you get. The Battledome is a meta-game where people argue imaginary battles. The library is where people discuss the story, and look at the author's intent.

One forum is a game to test intelligence, creativity, problem-solving, and so-on, and the other forum looks at what's actually implied in the story. You'll notice many people in the Battledome actually reject things that happen in the manga, such as Naruto beating Kakuzu.



> Battledome-dome type of thinking just doesn't exist, IMO that is called a difference in opinions and the only thing that we could do in this situation is to deal with it.



The fact there are 2 different tier threads is proof of the fact that there's a drastic difference of interpretation. We had to ask for a tier thread like the Battledome's, because otherwise we would have had to participate in that abortion or hit the bricks.

Hypothetical battles are a child's way of interpreting the series. It's more of a measure of the person doing the arguing than it is the actual content from the series.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 2, 2012)

Lol let us just forget about hype and portrayal? So Sakura is > Hashi? please stop Shinte


----------



## Legeh (Sep 2, 2012)

Since we're considering Danzo at the level when he fought Sasuke (so I assume) it should be clear that Danzo>Shisui since Danzou has one of Shisui's eyes plus due to Hashirama cell's the recovery period of Kotoamatsukami is drastically shortened.
Considering that Danzo cannot have been as strong when he got the eye from Shisui, they have to be at least a tier apart.
Shisui, in his time, was the most promising Uchiha but other than Itachi we don't know of any other talented Uchiha during that time. His genjutsu was superb and he was fast but Kotoamatsukami takes a decade to recover...
I don't think Shisui was already on Kage level so he shouldn't be in the same tier with Gaara and Mei either.
*I'm gonna vote him B+*

Inoichi is definitely at least a tier above Genma, Hayate and Aoba - tiers B- and C+ are a huge mess though, so it's difficult to place him. On his own he is probably not very strong but all the more valuable in a squad or army.
*To me that gives him the necessary edge: B-* unless others from B- get voted down which might very well be the case, then Inoichi's placement would have to be reconsidered.

Jirobo: who cares...


----------



## Sferr (Sep 2, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Then why are there separate tier lists?



If you mean about two tier list threads then they are different and serve a different purpose, really.



shintebukuro said:


> People in the battledome ignore hype all the time. To them, it's meaningless. To them, what matters is calculations and feats and hypotheticals based on those calculations and feats.


That's not true. There are quite many arguments in the battledome that are based on hype. But if that hype doesn't support someone's opinion then it becomes into 'no hype, just feats' argument. Different people interpret hype differently. There are many threads where people argued for many pages about hype alone.



shintebukuro said:


> The way someone in the Library argues Kakashi's strength is to look at the statement he made about how he compares to base Naruto. The way someone in the Battledome argues his strength is about how fast they think Kakashi can Kamui someone's head off.


The are a lot of Kamui gg statements or entire threads in the library. Much more than about him comparing himself to base Naruto.



shintebukuro said:


> Ask in the library how strong Kakuzu is, and do so in the Battledome and see the responses you get. The Battledome is a meta-game where people argue imaginary battles. The library is where people discuss the story, and look at the author's intent.
> 
> One forum is a game to test intelligence, creativity, problem-solving, and so-on, and the other forum looks at what's actually implied in the story. You'll notice many people in the Battledome actually reject things that happen in the manga, such as Naruto beating Kakuzu.


If I had asked that and the same people would have answered me, I wouldn't have seen any difference. Those who think that Kakuzu is very strong would think like that in both Battledome and the Library and vice versa. Nobody would change his opinion based on where he posts. Those people who reject Naruto beating Kakuzu would reject it in both Battledome and the Library.



shintebukuro said:


> The fact there are 2 different tier threads is proof of the fact that there's a drastic difference of interpretation. We had to ask for a tier thread like the Battledome's, because otherwise we would have had to participate in that abortion or hit the bricks.
> 
> Hypothetical battles are a child's way of interpreting the series. It's more of a measure of the person doing the arguing than it is the actual content from the series.


That is just your opinion and your own interpretation of the manga and as you can see not everyone shares your interpretation. Seriously, if there would have been a rule where hypothetical battles shouldn't be taken into consideration, those people who did would still vote absolutely the same.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 2, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> I haven't seen _anyone_ talk about Kakashi's statement about his strength compared to Base Naruto.





WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Going by portrayal wind-arc Naruto is>Kakashi though that statement can be implied to be mainly talking about him being able to do what Kakashi, Minato and Jiraiya could not and upgrade the Rasengan to the next level, even still if WA Naruto wasn't portrayed as above Kakashi, SM Naruto was.




Anyways, it'd be best if we just don't get too worked up over this one matter, despite how majorly it fucks with some of our views. No one is going to end up fully satisfied with the complete list, so its best that we try to make the rest of the list as good as possible instead of focusing on one thing about it we dislike that we aren't even discussing anymore.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 2, 2012)

*Shisui: A+*

Shisui was said to be the best genjutsu user among the Uchiha, was renowned throughout the world for using the shunshin jutsu so skillfully, possessed the two single most powerful Mangekyō jutsu. With both eyes charged, Shisui could defeat multiple S tiers at once. With neither eye charged, he could still contend with A- ninja by virtue of having top tier genjutsu and speed. I'm not sure how Danzō did what he did, but it's highly possible that he not only had help, but that Shisui held back as well because he loved the village, for Shisui could not stand the pain of being torn between his family and his home, so he entrusted Itachi with his will and took his own life.​


----------



## Legeh (Sep 3, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> *Shisui: A+*
> 
> Shisui was said to be the best genjutsu user among the Uchiha, was renowned throughout the world for using the shunshin jutsu so skillfully, possessed the two single most powerful Mangekyō jutsu. With both eyes charged, Shisui could defeat multiple S tiers at once. With neither eye charged, he could still contend with A- ninja by virtue of having top tier genjutsu and speed. I'm not sure how Danzō did what he did, but it's highly possible that he not only had help, but that Shisui held back as well because he loved the village, for Shisui could not stand the pain of being torn between his family and his home, so he entrusted Itachi with his will and took his own life.​



Even if Shisui was stronger than Danzo at the time, he stole his eye. Danzo having Shisui's eye plus being able to use Kotoamatsukami a lot more frequently plus being able to use Izanagi several times cannot be weaker than Shisui...
Also Shisui shortly before his death was surely not above Itachi a couple years later. 13 yo Itachi looked up to Shisui but Itachi greatly improved from then on.

The only reason I can see why you would vote Shisui into A+ is to counter lower votes that you disagree with - that undermines the voting process for this list.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 3, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Anyways, it'd be best if we just don't get too worked up over this one matter, despite how majorly it fucks with some of our views. No one is going to end up fully satisfied with the complete list, so its best that we try to make the rest of the list as good as possible instead of focusing on one thing about it we dislike that we aren't even discussing anymore.


Shinte I agree with WolfPrinceKiba on this one, couldn't have said it better myself.



Legeh said:


> Even if Shisui was stronger than Danzo at the time, he stole his eye. Danzo having Shisui's eye plus being able to use Kotoamatsukami a lot more frequently plus being able to use Izanagi several times cannot be weaker than Shisui...
> Also Shisui shortly before his death was surely not above Itachi a couple years later. 13 yo Itachi looked up to Shisui but Itachi greatly improved from then on.
> 
> The only reason I can see why you would vote Shisui into A+ is to counter lower votes that you disagree with - that undermines the voting process for this list.


Or maybe he, like I who also voted Shisui into A+ tier, thinks Danzo should also be in A+ Tier. Also Shisui has both of his MS, while Danzo only has 1.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 3, 2012)

*IMPORTANT!*

The Next 3 characters we'll be discussing are: Konohamaru, Sasori, and Naruto (Pre-SM). The Voting will start in 24 hours from now and the voting will end 48 hours from then (Thursday). The voting on the current 3 characters are closed (Pending the need for a possible extension; if the vote ends up very close; see the Gai snafu). 

I'll try and tabulate the votes as quickly as possible.


----------



## Bart (Sep 3, 2012)

Turrin can I ask you something directly? ;O


----------



## Turrin (Sep 3, 2012)

Bart said:


> Turrin can I ask you something directly? ;O


 I'm not sure what you mean by that, but yes you can VM or PM me.


----------



## Bart (Sep 3, 2012)

Well I could ask you here haha ;3

Just wanted to know whether I could talk about the whole voting thing about characters in general.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 3, 2012)

*Sasori*

He was portrayed as being above Deidara and around as strong as Orochimaru(both senior members of Akatsuki, Oro was hyped to be able to defeat a small nation by himself while Sasori actually did). He defeated the strongest kazekage in history then added him to his arsenal, while making the 3KK's strongest technique even more powerful by adding poison to it. He without a doubt belongs on the A tier.

*Wind-Arc Naruto*

I don't really have a problem with his placement, ignoring Kakashi's position on the tier list which I'll have to do as he won't be getting moved down and I won't fuck up the tier list further by using him or Gai as the basis for my arguments for moving someone up. Hes on the same tier as division generals and the lower end Akatsuki, which looks about right. I guess hes been brought up for revision because Kakuzu is on a higher tier but Naruto defeated a Kakuzu that had already lost two hearts, so I see no problem with Kakuzu being on a higher tier. I'll be voting for him to stay where he is.

*Konohamaru*

Hes only ever been in one fight against someone whose highly superior and while he did manage to land a blow on Naraka Realm he seemed barely damaged by it. He is stronger than most in his tier, not sure if hes stronger than Dosu though. Though I think Dosu should be higher as well. Karin is on a higher tier which is wrong though she needs to be moved down for shes mostly featless in terms of combat(her one feat is killing a CS fodder with a kunai). I'd say D+ or C-.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 3, 2012)

Bart said:


> Well I could ask you here haha ;3
> 
> Just wanted to know whether I could talk about the whole voting thing about characters in general.


You can, but the reason I asked for VM/PM is just to not clog up the thread with this discussion, so it easier to focus on the current 3 characters were voting on.



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> *Wind-Arc Naruto*
> 
> I don't really have a problem with his placement, ignoring Kakashi's position on the tier list which I'll have to do as he won't be getting moved down and I won't fuck up the tier list further by using him or Gai as the basis for my arguments for moving someone up. Hes on the same tier as division generals and the lower end Akatsuki, which looks about right. I guess hes been brought up for revision because Kakuzu is on a higher tier but Naruto defeated a Kakuzu that had already lost two hearts, so I see no problem with Kakuzu being on a higher tier. I'll be voting for him to stay where he is.


WolfPrince it's not Wind Arc Naruto, it's Pre-SM, so all the exp he gained before mastering SM counts as well which means he knows about MA/PA and can summon them as well, just so you know. 

Anyway I brought him up for revision because of Kakashi & Gai being on A-Tier, I don't see Pre-SM Naruto being a whole 2 tiers lower than them. Also yeah Kakuzu was down 2 hearts, but Naruto has also improved since then.

Furthermore I think he is portrayal and hype could put him above B+ tier and meet the minimum for A- Tier. People may feel differently and I don't mind him being B+, but I think it's worth taking a look at.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 3, 2012)

Turrin said:


> You can, but the reason I asked for VM/PM is just to not clog up the thread with this discussion, so it easier to focus on the current 3 characters were voting on.
> 
> 
> WolfPrince it's not Wind Arc Naruto, it's Pre-SM, so all the exp he gained before mastering SM counts as well which means he knows about MA/PA and can summon them as well, just so you know.
> ...



Seriously don't do this Turrin. Stop calling it "pre-SM Naruto"

Its simply *Wind arc Naruto*. Naruto had 3 major "training" moments
- elemental training (Wind Naruto --> to catch up with early part II Sasuke)
- SM training (to surpass Jiraya) --. SM Naruto
- Biju taming --> KCM Naruto
- completed mastery Biju --> BM Naruto

You're argument that he should also have knowledge over Pa & Ma is also ridiculous. Naruto met Pa & Ma in chapter ~ 405 and mastered SM in ~ 418
So basically the Naruto you want to judge consisted for 10+ chapters
This is not in line with his training. The moment Naruto met Pa & Ma, SM training was basically already in progress
Overall I judge characters more based on story, and Wind arc Naruto ~ Kakashi level. Kishi made it obviously clear. Also note Wind Arc Naruto was using KN0 eyes, so we should count that also among his skills
I would still rank Wind Arc Naruto, simply because the training was for him to get to Kakashi's level (KB experience and FRS). So still
*A- tier*



*Konohamaru*
No real feats. Him taking out Nakara realm was fine and all, but more plot then anything. Still ranking him C-, he did master Kage Bunshin & rasengan. He no doubt has talent
*C- tier*



*Sasori*
The man himself 
WolfPrinceKiba already made a compelling argument:



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> *Sasori*
> 
> He was portrayed as being above Deidara and around as strong as Orochimaru(both senior members of Akatsuki, Oro was hyped to be able to defeat a small nation by himself while Sasori actually did). He defeated the strongest kazekage in history then added him to his arsenal, while making the 3KK's strongest technique even more powerful by adding poison to it. He without a doubt belongs on the A tier.



As I already mentioned I also judge characters based on story, and Sasori at the end of the was simply Suna's version of Orochimaru
- both hailed as unparralelled genius's in their respective villages
- both killed their Sandaime Kage (by hype the village's stronges Kage)
- both were in search of immortality, and acquired it
- both used the dead shinobi as their weapon --> ET vs hitokugutsu

Might I also add this dude has massive stats. One of the things I consider a requirement for shinobi in the A tier is being well versed in different areas, like the Sannin and Kages
Check his stats
5/5 intelligence
4.5/5 speed
5/5 stamina
4/5 taijutsu 
4/5 ninjutsu

I consider above skills more important then haxx (I'm looking at A+ tier Shisui because of one jutsu....). 
And even then, Sasori also has haxx in his arsenal. One scratch poison KO, Sandaime Kazekage Satesu, 100 Puppets etc
This dude was easily the most powerful Akatsuki next to Nagato & Itachi and easily a tier above Deidara. He is Orochimaru's level

*A tier*


----------



## Turrin (Sep 3, 2012)

*Sasori*
I don't really mind him being moved up, but I lean towards his current placement. Sure he beat Sandaime Kazekage and Deidara admitted Sasori was stronger than him, but in both instances I think it's a relatively small margin given each characters showing, hype, and statements in DB III that make it sound like Sasori had the fight of his life against Sandaime Kazekage. I also disagree with the idea that just because he has Sandaime Kazekage he now has all of the Kazekage's strength, we have seen countless times that shinobi trying to control undead ones end up using their abilities more poorly than the actual shinobi did in life. 

I also think in general the shinobi on A Tier have better portrayals or hype than Sasori, while he more closely fits with most of the shinobi in A- Tier. He may be a bit better than some, but that type of leeway is why it's a Tier.

*Vote: A-*

*Pre-SM Naruto*
Pretty much already explained in my response to Wolf Prince why I feel he can be moved up, so refer to that

*Vote: A- *

*Konohamaru*
He did managed to land a blow on Hell Realm, so I feel like he should be much higher than he is. The guy is a tricky sob and I think he's skilled enough where he's around the same level that Naruto was after mastering Rasengan in Part I. He doesn't quite have the stamina though or KN shrouds. So I'd placed him around C- to C tier, but I lean towards C-, since I don't think he is at C tier quite yet

*Vote: C-*



hitokugutsu said:


> The moment Naruto met Pa & Ma, SM training was basically already in progress


No it wasn't he met MA/PA before SM started. He also had gained experience and knowledge in the wind arc. Pre SM Naruto is the one we're ranking, considering that was the one listed and has been ranked the entire time on the Tier list, that's not changing now. 



> (I'm looking at A+ tier Shisui because of one jutsu....).


Just FYI Shisui was voted into A Tier not A+ Tier


----------



## EricWest (Sep 3, 2012)

Can i vote to or is just limited to certain people?


----------



## Eliyua23 (Sep 3, 2012)

Sasori

I have a hard time seeing Gai being stronger than Sasori based off what has been shown, but him aside, characters like Jiriyia, Onoki, Tobirama, Danzo are significantly stronger than Sasori  I also think A is too high and should be in the A- tier, he's one of the elite of Atakuski  about the same strength as Kisame , to me he's about as strong as the weaker  Kages like Mei and Tsunade, ignoring the Gai placement I say Sasori is A-.

Sasori=A-



Pre-SM Naruto


Pre-SM Naruto was said to have surpassed Kakashi back in the wind arc and is definitely Kage level, he should be about equal to Hebi Sasuke especially factoring in 4kn, he's weaker than current Kakashi who is A tier so that leaves him in the A- tier.

Pre SM Naruto=A-





Konohamaru

This kid is a beast and is probably the strongest 12 yr old in the history of the manga, and based off portrayal and story structure I would say he's on par with some of the weaker rookies like Kiba and Hinata, I would put him as the sound 4 members like Sakon-Ukon , he has Razengan and Shadow clones and is a very tactical character similar to Naruto, to me he's a more intelligent version of PT 1 Naruto who I would vote in the C tier.

Konohamaru= C


----------



## Sferr (Sep 3, 2012)

*Sasori:*

Defeated the strongest Kazekage and added his power to his own arsenal, was Orochimaru's partner and was actually portrayed as someone equal to him. Has a deadly poison and has a wooden body. In his final battle let himself be killed by his own grandmother. I don't think he should be in the same tier as Mei, Tsunade, old Hiruzen.

*Vote: A*

*Pre-SM Naruto:*

I really have a hard time placing him in the A- tier but Kishimoto really seemed to place him in this area of power with Yamato telling about 'new Naruto' and Kakashi telling the Naruto have surpassed him. For me, he is between B+ and A- but basing how he was portrayed I think it would be more appropriate to place him in A- tier.

*Vote: A-*

*Konohamaru:*

Has a Kage Bunshin and Rasengan. Took out Naraka realm that pissed me off back then lol. But he should be higher than Gaiden Obito, so C- would be fine for him I gues.

*Vote: C-*


----------



## Legeh (Sep 3, 2012)

Basically ALL characters in A tier had major fights and achievements, call it hype or whatever except for Shisui whose strength is nothing but hypothetical. He didn't beat anyone or achieve anything in the manga only his eyes were used by two other characters in a plot-wise important but otherwise not so impressive (thinking efficiency in battles) way.

Putting him on one tier with the sannin and the raikages is ridiculous...

I would grant him A- but you're kidding yourselves putting him up there...


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 3, 2012)

Dr. White said:
			
		

> Lol let us just forget about hype and portrayal? So Sakura is > Hashi? please stop Shinte



I don't think you understand what I'm even arguing. 

If someone has zero feats, they aren't usually featured in Battledome fights.



			
				Sferr said:
			
		

> If you mean about two tier list threads then they are different and serve a different purpose, really.



And what purpose is that?

The Tier list in the Battledome caters to that logic, and the Tier list in the Library caters to Library logic. That's the answer.



> That's not true. There are quite many arguments in the battledome that are based on hype. But if that hype doesn't support someone's opinion then it becomes into 'no hype, just feats' argument. Different people interpret hype differently. There are many threads where people argued for many pages about hype alone.



Look, I know what the deal is. Hype is used as a secondary resource for arguments there. If there's no feats, hype is used. Other than that, it's all feats.

For instance, Sasori beat the strongest Kazekage, whereas Kakuzu lost to Base Naruto. In the battledome, a Sasori vs. Kakuzu thread wouldn't consist of any of this logic.



> *The are a lot of Kamui gg statements or entire threads in the library*. Much more than about him comparing himself to base Naruto.



Yeah, and enough of them in a thread and the thread is closed. The mods do not want to limit people's imaginations, but the second that kind of discussion becomes too prevalent, the whole thread is closed.

I've also never seen anyone post that who I felt was an intelligent poster, either.



> If I had asked that and the same people would have answered me, I wouldn't have seen any difference. Those who think that Kakuzu is very strong would think like that in both Battledome and the Library and vice versa. Nobody would change his opinion based on where he posts. Those people who reject Naruto beating Kakuzu would reject it in both Battledome and the Library.



Yeah, but people who reject it in the Library are disregarded. Their entire argument is based on hypotheticals, thus they cannot even push it in the Library if they want to. 

Your whole argument is basically "Some people in the library use feats and hypothetical battles as their logic, but they just can't talk about it."

Clearly, that's a problem. You should be able to speak your mind in the Library; if you cannot, you need to examine why and adapt.



> That is just your opinion and your own interpretation of the manga and as you can see not everyone shares your interpretation.



If anyone doesn't share my interpretation, I'll simply talk to them and help them figure it out.



> Seriously, if there would have been a rule where hypothetical battles shouldn't be taken into consideration, those people who did would still vote absolutely the same.



Yeah, and that's a huge problem. 

And by the way, *THAT RULE IS IN PLACE. IT'S BEEN STATED BY TURRIN.*

Simply put, anybody using hypothetical battles for their answers is fucking up the whole tier list. But I can't ask anyone on this forum to be logical. 



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Shinte I agree with WolfPrinceKiba on this one, couldn't have said it better myself.



Fine, but what I'm telling you is that this trend will continue.

Wait until we vote on Hanzou prime, Hiruzen prime, Kakashi, Deidara, etc...


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Sep 3, 2012)

Sasori: He defeated the strongest Kazekage and then made him his puppet. He also solo'd a country. He was also Deidara's superior, who in turn defeated Gaara. I originally had him on the top of my A- list, but he is a close enough call that I will move him up now, especially if Gai is A tier. 

Vote: A 


Post Fuuton Naruto: Naruto was stated to have surpassed Kakashi several times, so he cannot be placed two tiers below him. He was able to defeat a weakened Kakuzu with outside help. I'm putting him in A-, even though he would have probably been better off in B+. 

Vote: A-


Konohamaru: He defeated a Path of Pein. He knows how to make Bunshins, Rasengans, and transform into naked woman. He seems to be a part one Naruto parralell. He does not have the chakra, Kyuubi, or summoning contract. But given that he is Hiruzen's grandson and trained by Ebisu since part one, he is probably smarter, probably knows more jutsu, and probably has much better chakra control. 

Vote: C

Turrin, thanks for putting Konohamaru into this.


----------



## Santoryu (Sep 3, 2012)

Sasori:

While it's true he defeated the Kazekage (off panel mind you) and added his power to his own arsenal; he was trolled throughout the story, his on panel feats are decent (although. a lot of akatasuki members have superior feats), but clearly, every character in tier A is rightly above him, he has no place being in the same tier as Onoki/Jiraiya/Kakashi/Gai etc

*Vote: A-*

Pre-SM Naruto:

Kakuzu got the better of him in a few panels? If it wasn't for Kakashi, the fight was over there and then, not only that, but Naruto had some knowledge before engaging him.

That being said, the only thing he has going for him is hype; I'll say A- for now. Kakashi has gotten much stronger since that arc (feat wise) so using a reference from hundreds of chapters ago is faulty.

*Vote: A-*


----------



## Hossaim (Sep 3, 2012)

If Pre SM gets moved up, he becomes the second weakest on that tier. Sasori, Hebi Sauce, and Kisame would destroy him.

Mind, Kisame needs to be moved up.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Sep 3, 2012)

Santoryu said:


> Sasori:
> 
> While it's true he defeated the Kazekage (off panel mind you) and added his power to his own arsenal; he was trolled throughout the story, his on panel feats are decent (although. a lot of akatasuki members have superior feats), but clearly, every character in tier A is rightly above him, he has no place being in the same tier as Sauce/Jiraiya/Kakashi/Gai etc



What feats do Kakashi and Gai have that are superior to defeating the strongest Kazekage and soloing a country?


----------



## Santoryu (Sep 3, 2012)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> What feats do Kakashi and Gai have that are superior to defeating the strongest Kazekage and soloing a country?



read the war arc/pain arc/and the one before that and you will find your answers

I've covered that in my previous posts (in this thread)

also, every character in narutoverse is different; he defeated that kage off-panel, we don't know the exact circumstances

for example, kakashi can one shot jiraiya before he can even form a handseal

can sasori do that? nah, but sasori is better suited for taking on multiple fodders

you understand?

and feat wise, the "strongest kazekage" is weaker than gaara, it only makes sense. so gaara is probably the strongest kk now

sasori stated that his puppets were perfect for taking down a country, deidara could've taken out gaara's ht if he wanted to

basically, all you've stated is is sasori's hype, clearly, his on panel feats aint good enough to move him up


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Sep 3, 2012)

Santoryu said:


> read the war arc/pain arc/and the one before that and you will find your answers



Please tell me what these feats are. I'm dying to hear them. 



> also, every character in narutoverse is different; he defeated that kage off-panel, we don't know the exact circumstances



Whether it happened on panel or off panel doesn't change anything. He defeated the strongest Kazekage, a better victory than anything Kakashi or Gai have mustered. 



> for example, kakashi can one shot jiraiya before he can even form a handseal
> 
> can sasori do that? nah, but sasori is better suited for taking on multiple fodders
> 
> you understand?



Sasori took down a Kage. Kakashi has no feats of doing anything of the sort. Kakashi's best win was against Zabuza.   



> and feat wise, the "strongest kazekage" is weaker than gaara, it only makes sense.



The Sandaime Kazekage has no screen time. Your argument is akin to saying Sakura has better on panel feats than Rikudo Sennin.


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 3, 2012)

Santoryu said:
			
		

> for example, kakashi can one shot jiraiya before he can even form a handseal



This is flat-out embarrassing.

Why do you even bother with this tier list? Why don't you just go to the one in the Battledome? Do you really need to rub your stink on everyone here?


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 3, 2012)

Based on character portrayal, Kankuro surpassed Sasori.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 3, 2012)

Sasori: A Master puppet wielder that killed the strongest KazeKage(although we don't know how), and soloed a country. He was portrayed to be very wise, and his techniques are deadly to say the least. Sakura wouldn't have lasted if Chiyo wasn't an amazing puppeteer, she was the perfect aid against Sasori,  and had the right techniques to put him out. He has a vast set of puppets that are ridculously strong, and can overwlhelm alot of opponents. I see him as the only A Tier fighter from Suna, bar Gaara in the future possibly, so i'll give him *Vote: A Tier*

Naruto pre SM is no where near Gaara and all those people in A- Tier, he has toads, and FRS but his inexperience was a big problem, Kakazu had 2 hearts defeated, and Naruto showed it wasn't as reliable as he thought, and damaged his hand alot. I would say he was on the B+ , but just off of the A- Tier. so *Vote: B+ *

Konohamaru: I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and go with C- Tier, he was impressive enough to sneak attack a pain body, and has Rasengan which was deadly for Naruto in pt.1. Also he knows shadow clown jutsu at such a younge age it is impressive.
*Vote: C- Tier*


----------



## Inferno (Sep 3, 2012)

*Sasori*

Sasori's extremely deadly, and a genius. One hit with his poison would basically kill anyone without an antidote, and his Kazekage puppet boosts his power exceptionally. Soloing the strongest Kazekage and an entire country, and being hyped by Deidara as stronger, makes him very strong in my book. His DB stats are second only to Itachi and Jiraiya, and he's proven that he's an exceptional fighter, as he probably would have defeated Sakura and Chiyo (who had antidotes) had PnJ not interfered. 
*VOTE: A tier*



*Pre-SM Naruto*

I'll try keeping this short. He basically solo'd Kakuzu (with the aid of some PnJ), was stated to have surpassed Kakashi, and was hyped along with Minato a little. He mastered something not even Minato and Kakashi could, aided with his vast chakra pool. I'm stuck between B+ and A-, but my vote is...
*VOTE: A- tier*



*Konohamaru*

Nothing impressive, other than surprising something with a Rasengan. Can't say much here, really. He's just not up there yet.
*VOTE: C- tier*


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 3, 2012)

I'm content with all their rankings, although I can see Sasori being moved up if you get away from Battledome logic and recognize that he was portrayed as being the third strongest member in the original Akatsuki teams. (With Obito acting like a goob.)

It's really hard for me to get out of the Battledome state of mind though. Their unrestricted tier list is just beautiful to me, maybe because I'm a Deidara and Kisame fan and their feats just elevate them so much higher than their own de-hyping.​


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 3, 2012)

People severely underestimate Diedara and Kisame.


----------



## tsunadefan (Sep 3, 2012)

Darn, waited too long for Jiroubou.. But, oh well. Time to vote for two again. 

*Konohamaru*

The current Konohamaru defeated a path in his current genin level. The path might not have been the best fighter, but still a strong level opponent imo. He knows the A-rank jutsu shadow clone and A-rank rasengan. I think that Konohamaru should be in the C- rank. 

*VOTE: C-*

*Sasori*

One of my favourite characters. :33 Sasori was in the akatsuki for a reason. He was also said to be stronger than Deidara by Deidara himself. Sasori, a S-ranked missing nin, deserves to at least be on the A tier. He has a diverse array of powerful puppets. He is analytic and got his title "Sasori of the Red Sand" from turning the sands red with blood in a world war. He defeated an entire nation and also the third kazekage, known as the most powerful kage of all of them in the Sand village. His puppet body can also give him an advantage since it cannot be fatigued, can come back together after being split up, etc. Sasori is also intelligent and has poisons to greatly hinder his opponents. He is so intelligent that he concocted poisons that were intricately designed with various chemicals. His poison was so uniquely created, that no one in sunagakure could figure out an antidote and that it took one of konoha's best medics to find one. With all of this combined I would be surprised if he was even lower. 

*VOTE:A*


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 4, 2012)

Santoryu said:


> Sasori:
> 
> While it's true he defeated the Kazekage (off panel mind you) and added his power to his own arsenal; he was trolled throughout the story, his on panel feats are decent (although. a lot of akatasuki members have superior feats), but clearly, every character in tier A is rightly above him, he has no place being in the same tier as Onoki/Jiraiya/Kakashi/Gai etc
> 
> ...





Santoryu said:


> read the war arc/pain arc/and the one before that and you will find your answers
> 
> I've covered that in my previous posts (in this thread)
> 
> ...



When you voted Sasori A- I already suspected some battledome logic that makes no fucking sense

But Kakashi one-shotting a Sannin. GTFO 

Also, Sasori can handle the A tier just fine. Gai wont solo, it took Chiyo's puppeteer knowledge to dodge the traps, and although Gai is fast, he's not gonna destroy 100 Puppets or Iron Sand World Order without at least a scratch
Same for Kakashi. And dont gimme that Kamui GG Sasori's heart. If that was the case, then every shinobi would get his head torn of by Kamui, and Kakashi would be A++ tier. Its not how the manga works. 100 Puppets can also kill Kakashi most likely. He simply does not have the stamina to outlast them. Also Sasori can switch bodies might add, and body switch also appears to be a S/T ninjutsu as he "summons" his heart in antoher body as we saw vs Sakura & Chiyo
Onoki & Jinton are a good combo for Puppet onslaught, but Onoki has medicore stamina. Potentially Sasori can outlast him. But since even Deidara thought he can take out Onoki (and Deidara admitted to be weaker) I can Sasori taking Onoki
Either way Sasori can stand fine in the A tier. He's definitely above the A- tier though

As for "strongest Kazekage hype". This stament was made in front of the statues of all 4 Kazekages, not to mention after the battle with Deidara vs Gaara. The village saw that battle. And even then the Elders called him the strongest Kazekage *by far*. This was the dude who's kidnapping started WWIII might I add
Sandaime Kazekage was at least a tier above early part II Gaara. Current Gaara is no doubt more skillful, but his improvements are not on the level from Bsse Naruto to KCM Naruto for example. Current Gaara is at best also Sandaime Kazekage level.


----------



## Jad (Sep 4, 2012)

*Sasori:* I vote for him to say in his current position, I don't believe he can defeat any of the A tier list fighters, given their portrayal and feats thus far in the manga. Deidara saying Sasori was stronger than himself may have been a bit of a stretch. Considering Deidara didn't seem all that strong when he was recruited in the first place, and I doubt they had serious battles to determine who was stronger later on. I'd put him above Chiyo in tier, but definitely not two tiers above her, considering she defeated him with Sakura's help of all people. Plus the edo war, he got upstaged by Kankuro and blind sided by a pissed off Sai, and that starts to de-hype him. Conquering a country is all good and stuff, but we all know what fodders are worth nowadays. I mean coming from conquering a country to being stopped by a retired ninja and a chuunin nin who hasn't really shown experience in high tier battles just goes to show you. Plus defeating the Sandaime Kazekage, who knows how he defeated him, whether through murder or straight out battle, I haven't read into the details too much. I consider him a safe A- tier.

*Vote:* A-

*Pre-SM Naruto:*
I am not particularly sure if we are counting if he goes unconscious or loses his own base chakara supply, and transforms into the Kyuubi, which would bump him a lot higher. But I am going with none of that happening. I think he is B+ material (probably near the top) because he had a mastered jutsu that once used, destroys his arm completely. Plus I don't believe he could throw it than, I remember him slamming it into Kakuzu. I don't believe he was as level headed as he is now, back in the day, and mastering one jutsu didn't really change his entire fighting style, or put him above Pre-Rasenshuriken level. Considering at that point, Kakashi was still schooling them (Sakura and Naruto) at the start of Part 2 with the bell test. It was when he trained Sage Mode that he went above and beyond. Mass shadow clone jutsu is his bread and butter, and he is strong with that, as the B+ tier I have given him, but that didn't really ever overwhelm his opponents like it did to Mizu back in Part 1, when using that jutsu.

*Vote:* B+ Material, safe bet.

Edit: Are we even voting Pre-SM Naruto?


----------



## Jad (Sep 4, 2012)

I feel like this tier list has lost all meaning if only 5 to 10 people keep voting every 3 days. I mean the people who voted for a tier list aren't even voting in the characters.

It defiantly doesn't represent the Konoha Library masses, or enough to call it official. Plus lots of people are complaining, at the end of the day, we are going to look at a tier list no one likes lol.

What this tier list was set out to accomplish, is falling flat side on it's back.


*On another note*:  Turrin you made a mistake, Uchiha Shisui should be on *A- Tier*.

A+: 3 (99)
A: 1 (95)
A-:  7 (90)
B+: 2 (89)
B: 1 (85)
((3*99)+(1*95)+(7*90)+(2*89)+(1*85))/14
=
91.7857

Now you gave me a whole spiel on how Gai couldn't be on A tier because he had 92.8. So what's the deal? You playing favorites now? Now I find it funny, you stuck Gai at the bottom of the  A Tier list while you methodically stuck Uchiha Shisui in the middle of the A Tier list. Now tell me how you aren't biased  That's another mistake, considering in the first tier vote, when everyone made their lists, Gai should have been in A tier to begin with, considering he scored 94, just like Kakashi. Than you made mistakes for Gai, by miscounting votes.


----------



## Golden Circle (Sep 4, 2012)

Konohamaru is S+ tier.


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 4, 2012)

Jad said:


> I feel like this tier list has lost all meaning if only 5 to 10 people keep voting every 3 days. I mean the people who voted for a tier list aren't even voting in the characters.
> 
> It defiantly doesn't represent the Konoha Library masses, or enough to call it official. Plus lots of people are complaining, at the end of the day, we are going to look at a tier list no one likes lol.
> 
> What this tier list was set out to accomplish, is falling flat side on it's back.


Well, at first I was going to vote, but the current tier system isn't working for me. Letters are great and were voted on, but there are too many tiers (not voted on) and they don't really seem to have any meaning other than being a value.

The values themselves are problems, because the list isn't even linear; the difference between B+ and A- is merely one point but the difference between A and A- is five points. I highly doubt people took that into consideration.

Finally, from what I gathered the averaging process makes no sense either. I've seen two As and one A- be averaged to A-. The most common view isn't listed, but the lowest; it's sensitive to haters.

Normally tier threads are flooded when people can make their own tiers which works for them, but I guess not so many people can accommodate to this particular list. I know I can't.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 4, 2012)

The whole Tier A and Tier A- is messed up to me, and the averaging system does not make sense to me. *Did we even vote for this? * Especially on the numbers Turin is using.

People are way overrating Sasori. 



> A
> White Fang
> Hanzo (Prime)
> Nidaime Mizukage
> ...



Look at the people in tier A, how can someone place Sasori on the same tier as someone like Onoki, Shisui and Danzo. Placing Sasori on Tier A means people actually think his more powerful than Kisame, Kakuzu and Deidara?

By character portrayal Kankuro surpassed Sasori.
By character portrayal Gaara became the strongest Kazekage. 
By feats Sasori is not stronger than Kisame or Deidara.

Only thing going for Sasori is the hype, beating the strongest Kazekage is the most powerful hype he got. But lets be real, we don't know anything about that fight. We seen what Sasori can do and based on that we know he is no where near Onoki level to be in Tier A.

Sasori does not even fit in Tier A-. His not stronger than a Sannin [Tsunade], I don't know how his hype is bigger than the sannins. 

*A+*
Onoki

*A-*
Gaara

*B+*
Sasori
Sandaime Kazekage
Chiyo

*B-*
Kankuro​
After taking feats, character portrayal and hype, this is how I would rate the shinobi's from the Sand village. That list is in order.

Based on databook, the gap between the power level of Sasori and Sandaime Kazekage is very small. I would place both of them in the same tier, but Sasori has the slight edge as he beat him.

Based on character portrayal Kankuro surpassed Sasori, but by feats Sasori is atleast a tier above him.

*Vote: B+*


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 4, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> The whole Tier A and Tier A- is messed up to me, and the averaging system does not make sense to me. *Did we even vote for this? * Especially on the numbers Turin is using.
> 
> People are way overrating Sasori.
> 
> ...




This page alone places Sasori in A tier


*Spoiler*: __ 








But seriously do you see how flawed your logic is. 
Placing Sasori on the same tier as Chiyo? Despite Chiyo + Sakura + 3 prep time antidote were outclassed vastly by Sasori?

Placing Sandime Kazekage not even on the A tier? Suna's most powerfull Kage. When that statement was made it included 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th en early part II Gaara. Shisui gets to be ranked A tier, as well as Gai, yet Suna's most powerfull Kage cant be A tier 

_"Sandaime was the strongest Kazekage *by far*"_

This alone implies a tier of difference between other Kazekages and Sandaime. And placing Chiyo on the same tier as Sandaime? She shit her pants when she saw Sasori had him

And Sasori having the _edge_ to beat Sandaime? What now? Satetsu > Puppets. Manga fact. Sasori was at a  disadvantage vs Sandaime, and still managed to beat him


And then the fact that both Oro & Sasori implied they could take each other out suggest he is at least around Oro level
Deidara admitted inferiority twice, yet it doesn't count because Deidara has C4/3 feats?


----------



## Turrin (Sep 4, 2012)

*IMPORTANT!*

It comes to my attention that I made a mess up on Shisui and his final average is more on the cusp of A- to A Tier, so i'm going to* open up a 24 hour extension for voting on Shisui*, just like we did with Gai. 

On a side note you guys need to stay on topic, to the people we're discussing and not devolve into this craziness every time you don't like how a character is being voted on. Though if you see a mistake I made with my math please PM me so I can double check it. I'm thinking about having someone be a double checker that I can compare notes with before changing people on the tier list, so if anyone is interested in helping out with that, PM me.




Jad said:


> *On another note*:  Turrin you made a mistake, Uchiha Shisui should be on *A- Tier*.
> 
> A+: 3 (99)
> A: 1 (95)
> ...



These are not the numbers I got:

A+  5
A  3

A- 7

B+ 2

B 1

Checking it again I seem to have missed a B+ vote the first time, but as you can see you missed essentially 4 votes , so it isn't easy finding all of these votes in in the crazy haystack of posts. Anyway that puts Shisui right on the cusp between A- to A (92.9) instead of the (93-something) I got before.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 4, 2012)

_"Sandaime was the strongest Kazekage *by far*"_

This statement is way to overused. We cannot use this hype to determine which tier Sasori belongs to as it doesn't mean much. We don't know anything about 1st and 2nd Kazekage so anyone being stronger than them tells us nothing. The 4th Kazekage is not stronger than Gaara and by character portrayal current Gaara surpassed all the previous Kazekage's. 

Gaara > 3rd Kazekage > 4th Kazekage >=< 1st and 2nd Kazekage

*Sasori vs 3rd Kazekage*
Sasori was a puppet-master, he had lots of tricks that could be deadly for anyone even for a Kage. Sasori was like 15 years or younger when he killed the Third Kazekage so I highly doubt that Sasori beat him in a fair battle, if the Third Kazekage was going all out, the rest of the village would have known about it.

This is why Sasori is a 'special case' because the slightest scratch of his poisonous puppet is enough to screw you over. In the databook entry of Sasori, it says "painstakingly defeated" the Kazekage. So the databook tells us that Sandaime Kazekage was very hard to obtain and that it was extremely difficult for Sasori to defeat him. *That tells us that the gap between Sasori and 3rd Kazekage is not very big.* 

*Now lets look at the most recent development.*

Sasori was brought back to life to hype Kankuro. So by character portrayal Kankuro surpassed Sasori. 
Gaara beat his father, this is very impressive since gold is heavier than sand just like Iron is heavier than Sand. So Gaara beating his father pushed him up a level and so by character portrayal Gaara is the strongest Kazekage. 

*Chiyo and Sakura vs Sasori*
Chiyo and Sakura pushed Sasori to his limits just like 3rd Kazekage did. Now Chiyo + Sakura does not belong in A tier or A- tier, I would say Chiyo + Sakura + Knowledge + Prep = 3rd Kazekage. 

So my vote on Sasori is not changing.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Sep 4, 2012)

Deidara is weaker than Sasori anyway you slice it he admitted himself, Sasori also outclassed Chiyo+ Sakura by a fair margin considering the prep they had and the fact she knew all of his abilites, and nowhere does it state or has it been shown that Kankuro surpassed Sasori, he fought Sasori with a squad of Jounin-High Chunnin abilites, while Sasori had no access to any of his puppets, all it indicated was that Kankuro will become the new puppet master down the line in the future, but his feats , hype, still doesn't compare to what Sasori had accomplished.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 4, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> Deidara is weaker than Sasori anyway you slice it he admitted himself, Sasori also outclassed Chiyo+ Sakura by a fair margin considering the prep they had and the fact she knew all of his abilites, and nowhere does it state or has it been shown that Kankuro surpassed Sasori, he fought Sasori with a squad of Jounin-High Chunnin abilites, while Sasori had no access to any of his puppets, all it indicated was that Kankuro will become the new puppet master down the line in the future, but his feats , hype, still doesn't compare to what Sasori had accomplished.




I don't take every statements on face value, when placed in context you can tell Deidara wanted Kakashi to leave Naruto alone to him. 

Sasori never outclassed Chiyo and Sakura by a fair margin, they both were pushed to their limits. I would say the margin between their power level is very small. 

Only prep they had is preparing the antidotes, as a medical ninja, one would expect Sakura to carry them around. 

Only knowledge they had is that Sasori uses puppets and poisons, something nearly all shinobi can guess when they see him using Puppets as his weapon. They did not have knowledge on 100 puppets or Kazekage puppet. On the other hand, Sasori had a lot of knowledge on Chiyo's puppets as they were once his puppets.

Whatever the circumstances of that battle, by character portrayal Kankuro surpassed Sasori. But based on feats it is very clear that Sasori is still overwhelming more powerful than Kankuro.


----------



## tsunadefan (Sep 4, 2012)

I agree with what some people say about the tier placements. I think the votes should have just been collected and the votes with the higher tiers should have been the final results. It will make things simpler without much resistance from members imo. 

The positions of some of the characters positions are just wrong imo. Oonoki should be in A+ tier, Chiyo should be in A tier, etc. No wonder why an S ranked criminal like Sasori is placed in the jounin rank B! 

This also brings another point. People shouldn't really take into account the current list. All characters will be voted on and their placements can be changed from B to A which only confuse things when an actual A ranked character is at B. Characters should first be gauged as to where on the list they should be placed and then let the majority characters be placed accordingly. 

And characters imo, cannot just be ranked based on hype. Cause you could hype one character and then another character could come up with not much hype, but still have better showings to place him above the hyped character. Hype can also be overexaggerated. I think both feats and hype should be considered.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 4, 2012)

I agree with the 3rd paragraph.

I don't understand how the averaging thing works and I don't think many people do, who determined the value to place a character in tier A? 

I don't remember voting on these...


----------



## Immortal (Sep 4, 2012)

Since you and Jad have such contesting views, I believe that he is best suited to be your double checker.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 4, 2012)

I have been saying this since the begining. First off why is Rikudo in a tier by himself? We get it he is boss, the most interesting man in the world, the chuck Norris of Naruto, but he has zero feats and untouchable hype/portrayal. No one makes threads about him so he is just taking space. Hence the subsequent "well my character is in A- and that tier is garbage" commotion. Moving the S Tier minus Minato into the S+ Tier would solve alot, and moving other tiers up  would solve alot of this BS.

Are Tiers are extremely arbitrary. What does it mean to be a S Ranked Ninja? To me there are certain qualifications, and such ninja should be placed in the tier if they meet them. This all shudders back of course though to Rikudo getting his own tier.


----------



## Cord (Sep 4, 2012)

Sasori deserved to move up one tier. He defeated the supposedly strongest Kazekage; and claimed to have taken down an entire country. That's also leaving the fact that Deidara himself blatantly admitted that Sasori is stronger than him. Everything in his arsenal is easily one of the most formidable any other Shinobi could come up against. I'm going to be honest here, but he is definitely more powerful than most of the characters in his current tier and I've always believed that he's just on the same level as Kakashi. If Might Gai was placed in the A tier, I see no reason why Sasori shouldn't. 

_*Vote: A*_


----------



## Eliyua23 (Sep 4, 2012)

There is no perfect system for ranking characters and that's why everyone always flames out and they end p getting closed, to me so far it seems to be going very well and has been fair, now is it perfect no, but no system will be perfect and be 100% agreed upon amongst the forum.


----------



## Inferno (Sep 4, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> I'm content with all their rankings, although I can see Sasori being moved up if you get away from Battledome logic and recognize that he was portrayed as being the third strongest member in the original Akatsuki teams. (With Obito acting like a goob.)
> 
> It's really hard for me to get out of the Battledome state of mind though. Their unrestricted tier list is just beautiful to me, maybe because I'm a Deidara and Kisame fan and their feats just elevate them so much higher than their own de-hyping.​



There's a BD tier list too? Link? I'd like to compare them.


----------



## Ginkurage (Sep 5, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> *Now lets look at the most recent development.*
> 
> Sasori was brought back to life to hype Kankuro. So by character portrayal Kankuro surpassed Sasori.



Nononononononono. I don't even give a shit about tiers or anything but since when has "character portrayal" determined someone's strength? Naruto was portrayed as borderline pathetic in the Kage Summit arc, better put in in C tier! 

Sasori didn't even have any puppets. It's like an Uchiha fighting without his eye or Naruto without the Kyuubi. It's kind of their thing, you cant take it away from them and call it a fair fight.

Sasori was trolled that fight because Kishi made more Edo Tensei than he knew what to do with, it was_ not_ to hype Kankuro.


----------



## GaaraFromTheHood (Sep 5, 2012)

I'm sorry I missed the previous voting because even though this is a democratic process, I don't agree with other placements.  I don't think it makes sense to have a tier taking up space for the Rikudou/Sage, because no other character can get to his level if he created Ninjutsu and gave birth to the lineage of the other characters. He was a God, and not a Ninja, so he should be removed from the equation (and no, I don't think Naruto can become a God, even if he becomes jinchuuriki of the ten tails....Rikudou will still remain at a different level). If you remove him and move everyone up a level, the list would make more sense  

I'm not understanding some of the logic around here,  but let's just call that different point of views. To me, Sasori showed impressive techniques that would render most shinobi helpless, including wielding a puppet of a character (sandaime kazekage) that has already been placed in one of the tiers here based on hype alone (A-), so stop saying that hype alone shouldn't count. Also, obviously, he can't be on the same tier as a character he easily defeated (per the manga) and that he made his bitch...errr, his puppet, which basically amounts to a nasty way and more difficult way to have an Edo Tensei available to you and not just grave-scavaging. That should count for something. That's not even counting the fact that the unique combination of Sakura with her super-strength and antidote making skills, and Chiyo with her puppeteer skills (moving Sakura around) and knowledge were CUSTOM-MADE TO DEFEAT SASORI. WTF, why everyone chooses to ignore that? Chiyo on her own gets pwn, Sakura alone gets pwn, and it's arguable whether a combination with other ninjas might be better suited to defeat Sasori. This was as sure a way Kishimoto had to kill Sasori as there was. And remember, my interpretation of his end was that he let himself be killed because of the memories of his parents that Chiyo evoked by using those puppets to try and kill him. 

And I completely agree with this: 


Blue Bombardment said:


> Nononononononono. I don't even give a shit about tiers or anything but since when has "character portrayal" determined someone's strength? Naruto was portrayed as borderline pathetic in the Kage Summit arc, better put in in C tier!
> 
> Sasori didn't even have any puppets. It's like an Uchiha fighting without his eye or Naruto without the Kyuubi. It's kind of their thing, you cant take it away from them and call it a fair fight.
> 
> Sasori was trolled that fight because Kishi made more Edo Tensei than he knew what to do with, it was_ not_ to hype Kankuro.



Sooooo I think that he's safely at the same level as Orochimaru, so I vote A 

*Vote: A*


----------



## Immortal (Sep 6, 2012)

I'm not a Sasori fan, nor a hater, but I adamantly believe that he is inferior to Orochimaru and just about everyone else in the tiers above him. On my personal tier list, if I ever made one, I'd have Sasori on the B+ tier. However, he really really doesn't belong there on this list with the likes of Chiyo, Darui and Hidan. He certainly however imo, does not belong with the likes of Danzo, Shisui, Hanzo or the White Fang, amongst many others - just about everyone on that tier. *Vote A- Tier*


----------



## Seiji (Sep 6, 2012)

No shit. Let's be frank here, anyone that stands up against Sasori without antidotes would get murked back to kingdom come. Satetsu/ Satetsu Kaiho and his 100 plus puppets is a nightmare to whoever has no AoE form of attacks or good defense (like Tsunade ) or Susano'o. And he ain't that tier weaker than Gai or Orochimaru. Sasori is clearly strong. He's underestimated enought in BD, he ain't deserve to be underestimated in this one and LOL at those who'd put him in B tier.

*Vote: A*


----------



## Immortal (Sep 6, 2012)

Using Orochimaru and Gai (especially Gai...) as a reason to bump Sasori to A doesn't make a lot of sense when the A tier also has legends like Shisui, the White Fang and Hanzo. Then there's Danzo, Jiraiya, Onoiki... I don't know, I just don't think Sasori belongs in that crowd, he belongs alongside Deidara imo.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 6, 2012)

So you're saying he belongs alongside someone who admitted inferiority to him? You act as if Sasori himself isn't pretty legendary, guy took out a nation and him killing the third Kazekage started a ninja war. Thats legendary, especially compared to lolShisui. Shisui may have some hype but he has no accomplishments near that of Sasori's.


----------



## Bart (Sep 6, 2012)

Exactly that ^^


----------



## Turrin (Sep 6, 2012)

*IMPORTANT!*

Considering the response that come about every time a character with a large fanbase has been discussed, I have been in deep thought about how to Minimize the possibility of a flame war arising. I mean if Gai and Sasori get this heat, than what is going to happen with Itachi, Minato, Nagato, etc...

Furthermore moderating this thread is just a-lot of work for one person, a-lot more than I expected, which leads to me making some mistakes in tabulating scores a few times and having time delays on updating things. Also some people are worried about bais and while their worries are unfounded, I can at least understand why a single person in charge could cause this fear. 

At first I asked a Mod to take over because it would move things more smoothly, but Mod seems interested in this remaining a fan project and is also too busy to do it.

So I have thought of possible resolution to this:

I would like to put together a group of people (ideally 6 including myself) that were willing to moderate the thread together. That way we have multiple people double checking tabulations of votes and when one is absent the others will be their to update the tier list. Furthermore with 6 people moderating thread, there should be no fear of bias and hopefully this will also help to prevent flame wars. Finally with 6 people it should be very easy to moderate the thread. 

So i'm requesting anyone interested or kind enough to help out to PM or VM me, so I can begin to form this group. I'm going to hold off on moving forward with the voting process for a little while, in hopes that I can put this group together right away.


----------



## Santoryu (Sep 6, 2012)

lol 

I'm going to warn you guys in advance, since by the looks of it, this tier list is going to turn into a huge mess (if Sasori gets moved up to that tier) 

I'll elaborate

Tier A is occupied by the likes of the White Fang/Kakashi Hatake/Jiraiya/Pre KCM Naruto etc

Does Sasori to deserve to be in the same tier as these guys? Well, if you think he does, and he does get moved up eventually, what do you think will happen?

A lot of the other Akatasuki members will also have to be moved up.

Deidara
Kisame
Kakuzu

^ They arguably have better on panel feats than Sasori; Sasori has some nice hype and all, but feat wise, how could anyone make a case for him going into that tier? Regardless, if all of the fighters are moved up, then you would have to move up the likes of Tsunade/Hebi Sasuke, because let's face it, they are around that level.

While it's true Deidara admit that Sasori was superior, does that warrant him being placed a tier above? The answer is no. Gai admit Kakashi being superior, but he has rightfully been placed in the same tier as him.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Sep 6, 2012)

Sasori should be in the A- tier, but he is one of the strongest people there. Personally, I don't rate him as high as Orochi and Jiraiya nor Hanzo or the White Fang, therefore A-.

Vote: A-


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 6, 2012)

Santoryu said:


> lol
> 
> I'm going to warn you guys in advance, since by the looks of it, this tier list is going to turn into a huge mess (if Sasori gets moved up to that tier)


I hope you're being sarcastic because of what I and several others said about how the list would become a mess if Gai moved up to that tier, otherwise wow just wow.


----------



## Santoryu (Sep 6, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I hope you're being sarcastic because of what I and several others said about how the list would become a mess if Gai moved up to that tier, otherwise wow just wow.



Nah, Gai is just that good


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 6, 2012)

I feel like people are trying to place Sasori in tier A just because Gai is there which makes no sense.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2012)

No people want him there because he belongs there.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Sep 6, 2012)

It makes sense because Gai has been misplaced simply because of the hype him and kakashi have received recently. People suddenly think they are sannin level or higher and frankly its ridiculous. Its like you all forget other people's feats.

Btw, why is hanzo in 2 tiers? A and A+


----------



## Naruto (Sep 6, 2012)

Here's an idea to make this process super simple:

First post is a list of accepted tiers, big bold letters above telling people to read before they vote.

Create an actual poll, multiple choice. Formulate the question "who do you think is S+ tier?". Leave it for like, two weeks. Do the same thing for every tier. Remake the tier list every year.

For every poll, there should be a few characters that stand out. Once you figure out how many people are voting every couple weeks you can determine a threshold of necessary votes for somebody to be considered safely placed in that tier. Once all tiers are done revisit the characters that did not clearly make it into each tier and make a new poll, sort of a "losers bracket", with just that pool of shinobi that need to be placed still.

Badabing. Very little moderation needed, just update the OP every couple weeks really. Make the poll public so we can see who voted and avoid dupes.


----------



## Santoryu (Sep 6, 2012)

Phoenix Zoro said:


> It makes sense because Gai has been misplaced



Nah, they haven't been misplaced. 



> simply because of the hype him and kakashi have received recently.




Hype AND feats 



> People suddenly think they are sannin level


When will people stop using this "Sannin level" nonsense?

Tsunade is a Sannin, therefore she is "Sannin level" Honestly, Kakashi and Gai were around that level before the war even took place.



> frankly its ridiculous.


Not really.



> Its like you all forget other people's feats.


Nah, but it seems you have forgot Kaka/Gai's feats.


----------



## Bart (Sep 6, 2012)

Naruto; not a good approach 

Firstly, it's a vote on convenience and popularity instead of feats then, for example, if a Shinobi has truly brilliant feats then they are not taken into account; merely how many people voted which is a bit unfair, especially if people ask others to vote for certain Shinobi.

Also if the Shinobi isn't that popular compared to the rest, etc.

The only way to do this thread properly if to base it on the members who actually post something decent, with proof and evidence; if not then the thread itself is flawed.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2012)

*Proposed Start off Tier List*


*Spoiler*: __ 



*S+(God Tier)*
Rikudo Sennin
Kabuto (ET)
Tobi(Rinnengan)
Edo Madara
Naruto(current)

*S (Transcendent Tier)*
Hashirama
EMS Madara
Sasuke(EMS)
Nagato
Minato
Itachi(Healthy)
Tobi's Rikudo

*S- (Elite Kage)*
Hiruzen (Prime)
Tobi (Pre Rinnegan)
Killer Bee
Naruto (Pre-BM)
Pain Rikudo
White Fang
Hanzo (Prime)
Nidaime Mizukage
Sandaime Raikage
Tobirama
Mū

*A+(High Kage)*
Yondaime Raikage
Orochimaru 
Jiraiya
Onoki 
Naruto (Pre-KCM)
Danzo 
Sasuke (MS)
Kakashi
Gai
Kisame
Uchiha Shisui


*A (Mid Kage)*
Sasori
Tsunade
Gaara
Kakazu
Deidara
Sandaime Kazekage
Mei Terumei


*A-(Kage Level)*
Kinkaku
Ginkaku 
Hebi Sasuke
Hiruzen (old)
Mifune
Hanzo(rusty)

*B+ (Elite Jounin)*
Konan
Kitsuchi
Asuma
Hidan
Chiyo
Darui
Dan
Naruto (Pre SM)
Kankorou
Hyuuga Hiashi
Hyuuga Hizashi
Kimmiamaro


*B (Jonin Tier)*
Chouji
Yamato
Zabuza
Nara Shikaku 
Amakichi Chouza
Chojuro
Juugo
Ao
Suigetsu
Inoichi

*B- (Tobetsku Jonin)*
Akatsuchi
Kurenai 
Kurotsuchi
Shikamaru
Fu
Torune
Sai
Temari
Hyuuga Neji
Zetsu
Rock Lee
C
Baki



*C+ (High Chunin)*
Kiba
Samui
Mitarashi Anko
Aburame Shino
Sakura
Omoi
Gekko Hayate
Hyuuga Hinata

*C (Mid Chunin)*
Shizune
Atsui
Shin
Karui
Aoba
Shiranui Genma
Tayuya
Kidomaru
Haku 
Sakon-Ukon
Jirobo

*C- (Low Chunin)*
Karin
Tenten 
Ino
Uchiha Obito(Gaiden)
Ebisu

*D+ (High Genin)*
Umino Iruka
Mizuki
Zaku Abumi
Yoroi Akadō
Konohamaru

*D (Mid Genin)*
Maki 
Dosu
Rin
Demon Brothers

*D-( Low Genin)*
Kin Tsuchi
Misumi Tsurugi 
Oobro Brothers


----------



## Urek Mazino (Sep 6, 2012)

My question is why have so many iterations of the same character on different tiers? If we are really doing tiers shouldn't it be characters at their most powerful? instead of (base) or (BM) (KCM) or whatever?


----------



## Ptolemy (Sep 6, 2012)

Seeing as the approach is being reconsidered I'd thought I'd consolodate all my criticisms into an up to date post, incase someone thinks they are worth considering. Again, I know it's annoying to constantly point out faults, but if they are valid it saves time to point them out at this stage, rather than later down the road and thus having to start again, modify what already exists or end up with a sub-par result. 


*Spoiler*: __ 




The tier list is getting messy, and debate getting fierce, because the ambiguity of hype (and even feats) was ignored when designing the tier list. 

Even for experienced and reasonable debaters an objective comparison between characters like Itachi & Jiraiya/Minato/Orochimaru is immensly difficult. Yet this tier list not only tries to define which is stronger, but adds an arbitary distance of several micro tiers to further fuel debate. Furthermore when trying to place a character you are not just making one comparison, but dozens, and when you massively disagree on what's already been decided than it's downright impossible to accurately place a character, even if you think you have a good idea of how strong he is.

Add this to the fact that people are using different criteria (feats, hype, hollistic) an overly complicated (and perhaps faulty) averaging system, and that people are making comparisons between characters whose placement hasn't been officially decided and you have a system that is going to collapse under it's own faults, or end up just dissapointing everyone involved. You can make a point of that's acceptable as long as we can an opinion that is representative of the whole library but that's a farce because we are only getting about a dozen people voting. 

Take Sasori as an example - I don't believe Prime Hanzo, through sheer hype, should be on the same tier as the Sannin. Yet if I were to believe that Sasori was an equal to Orochimaru, then I'm already stuck for my placement without contradicting myself. I could ignore that, then make my choice as Sasori for A tier, but then later have Hanzou move up a tier and Orochimaru move down a tier. Now my placement would make utterly no sense whatsoever. I can point out several more contradictions in that single placement, and I'm faced with the possibility for all those characters to change. Even if I were utterly determined that Sasori was A tier stuff, there's no way I could do an objective placement. If I were to ignore all those problems, and the majority of people and I placed Sasori in the A tier, he could still probably end up in the A- tier due to the way averaging works.


----------



## Akitō (Sep 6, 2012)

Am I too late to vote for Sasori's placement? 

He shouldn't be in a category with Jiraiya and Orochimaru and Danzō. He isn't at that level. He fought an elite jōnin and low jōnin and defeated them, but that isn't very noteworthy when you consider their levels: an elite jōnin and an ordinary jōnin aren't that deadly even if they've got the match-up advantage. He should be near Kakuzu and Kisame in strength, and that doesn't warrant him being in the A category.

*Sasori: A-*


----------



## Naruto (Sep 6, 2012)

Bart said:


> Naruto; not a good approach
> 
> Firstly, it's a vote on convenience and popularity instead of feats then, for example, if a Shinobi has truly brilliant feats then they are not taken into account; merely how many people voted which is a bit unfair, especially if people ask others to vote for certain Shinobi.
> 
> ...



THIS IS A POPULARITY CONTEST

You people need to understand that. It is a collective understanding of what, in the eyes of the narutoforums community, are the strongest shinobi.

You CANNOT quantify subjectivity. You CANNOT pick and choose who has the best arguments, because everyone and their mom will disagree. If we could all agree on something like that, then this section wouldn't exist.

This is just a fucking list.


----------



## Blazed AF (Sep 6, 2012)

raf007 said:


> My question is why have so many iterations of the same character on different tiers? If we are really doing tiers shouldn't it be characters at their most powerful? instead of (base) or (BM) (KCM) or whatever?



Just for fun I guess. Also, isn't Yamato's real name Tenzou? I guess we're just going by what they're best known as.

I vote Sasori A-, in relevance to the rest of the characters in the tiers I don't see him deserving to go much higher, and certainly not lower as he is a member of Akatsuki.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 6, 2012)

Akitō said:


> Am I too late to vote for Sasori's placement?
> 
> He shouldn't be in a category with Jiraiya and Orochimaru and Danzō. He isn't at that level. He fought an elite jōnin and low jōnin and defeated them, but that isn't very noteworthy when you consider their levels: an elite jōnin and an ordinary jōnin aren't that deadly even if they've got the match-up advantage. He should be near Kakuzu and Kisame in strength, and that doesn't warrant him being in the A category.
> 
> *Sasori: A-*



Sasori easily outsmarts these 2 here. This dude has 5/5 intelligence, and his traps are nearly unreadable (unless you're Chiyo and know him) and his posion is OHKO (unless you're Sakura with massive prep antidote)

Sandaime Satetsu Iron Sand World Order + posion Satetsu is enough to deal with them. Let alone 100 Puppets rape
Both Kakuzu & Kisame have nothing on poision.

A case could be made for Hanzo having some kinda posion immunity as for Orochimaru, but people like Kisame, Kakuzu, Deidara are all inferior.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 6, 2012)

Ptolemy said:


> The tier list is getting messy, and debate getting fierce, because the ambiguity of hype (and even feats) was ignored when designing the tier list.
> 
> Even for experienced and reasonable debaters an objective comparison between characters like Itachi & Jiraiya/Minato/Orochimaru is immensly difficult. Yet this tier list not only tries to define which is stronger, but adds an arbitary distance of several micro tiers to further fuel debate. Furthermore when trying to place a character you are not just making one comparison, but dozens, and when you massively disagree on what's already been decided than it's downright impossible to accurately place a character, even if you think you have a good idea of how strong he is.
> 
> ...



I have to agree. That's why I think we should make the tiers more linear, there is so much microscaling going on and it's so hard to rate the ambiguity of "power." It means different things to different people, each have their own idea of what is A rank and what is C rank, which all conflicts with the views of others.



hitokugutsu said:


> Sasori easily outsmarts these 2 here. This  dude has 5/5 intelligence, and his traps are nearly unreadable (unless  you're Chiyo and know him) and his posion is OHKO (unless you're Sakura  with massive prep antidote)
> 
> Sandaime Satetsu Iron Sand World Order + posion Satetsu is enough to deal with them. Let alone 100 Puppets rape
> Both Kakuzu & Kisame have nothing on poision.
> ...



Kakuzu is arguably immune to poison since he has no functional body  systems, he's a tentacle monster inside of a skin suit. Poison works by  going into your bloodstream where it travels to specific muscles or  organs, depending on the poison, and attacking them. Kakuzu has no blood  flow and no organs.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 6, 2012)

How about this approach: we reach a consensus on one ninja in each tier. One poster-boy per tier should be doable, and then we have a solid spectrum of power to calibrate our votes. We could even use Dr. White's list to just pick _one_ universally acceptable ninja for each tier, and then slowly _add_ other ninja based on those benchmarks.

With our current method, while the initial results were essentially a perfect mean of voter opinion, notwithstanding the imperfect intervals between tiers, I think having universal benchmarks and then meticulously adding characters would be more fun and promote more in depth discussion for each character.

It might even prove to be a more accurate tier list overall, as I doubt all posters remember all details, and in arguing for a character to be closer to one poster-boy than the next, those details are more likely to be considered by everybody. Of course, I just like this thread in general, so I'll participate no matter what.​


----------



## Akitō (Sep 6, 2012)

Naruto said:


> THIS IS A POPULARITY CONTEST



I think what Bart's trying to get across is that if you allow people to vote without posting their reasoning, the members who aren't really taking this project seriously will be encouraged to vote. And that's something that we don't want. Requiring some form of substantiation gets rid of the members who are out there just to support their favorite character and not looking to improve the list.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 6, 2012)

List looking good so far 

Dont see why people are complaining because their favorite character is where they want it to be


----------



## Bart (Sep 6, 2012)

Naruto said:


> THIS IS A POPULARITY CONTEST
> 
> You people need to understand that. It is a collective understanding of what, in the eyes of the narutoforums community, are the strongest shinobi.
> 
> ...



It's not really a popularity contest though, is it?

An unstanding of the strongest Shinobi has nothing to do with popularity; it should be to do with opinions and views, not creating a poll where virtually anyone could have their say (creating dups, asking others to vote just for the sake of it, so on and so forth).

Haha hmmmm well I guess you might have a point on the whole subjectivity thing


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> How about this approach: we reach a consensus on one ninja in each tier. One poster-boy per tier should be doable, and then we have a solid spectrum of power to calibrate our votes. We could even use Dr. White's list to just pick _one_ universally acceptable ninja for each tier, and then slowly _add_ other ninja based on those benchmarks.
> 
> With our current method, while the initial results were essentially a perfect mean of voter opinion, notwithstanding the imperfect intervals between tiers, I think having universal benchmarks and then meticulously adding characters would be more fun and have promote more in depth discussion for each character.
> 
> It might even prove to be a more accurate tier list overall, as I doubt all posters remember all details, and in arguing for a character to be closer to one poster-boy than the next, those details are more likely to be considered by everybody. Of course, I just like this thread in general, so I'll participate no matter what.​



Seconded.
 Like I said the major problems with the list before were:
-Rikudo Senin taking a *whole damn tier.*
-*Arbitrary Tier listings*, there was reference to each tier so placing them was arbitrary as hell.
-Focusing on 3 characters at a time in the editing phase wasn't to effective seeing as we were going to do another revising round anyway. We might as well Do our best to *focus on each character individually* upping the accuracy of each character and allowing for discussion to be more on point, and focused.
-Allowing everyone to send in Tier list, making the *tiers unbalanced to start with and as a result making comparisons to other people not yet discusses completely irrelevant.*

I also believe this Tier List to be a better starting point.

*Spoiler*: __ 



*S+(God Tier)*
Rikudo Sennin
Kabuto (ET)
Tobi(Rinnengan)
Edo Madara
Naruto(current)

*S (Transcendent Tier)*
Hashirama
EMS Madara
Sasuke(EMS)
Nagato
Minato
Itachi(Healthy)
Tobi's Rikudo

*S- (Elite Kage)*
Hiruzen (Prime)
Tobi (Pre Rinnegan)
Killer Bee
Naruto (Pre-BM)
Pain Rikudo
White Fang
Hanzo (Prime)
Nidaime Mizukage
Sandaime Raikage
Tobirama
Mū

*A+(High Kage)*
Yondaime Raikage
Orochimaru 
Jiraiya
Onoki 
Naruto (Pre-KCM)
Danzo 
Sasuke (MS)
Kakashi
Gai
Kisame
Uchiha Shisui


*A (Mid Kage)*
Sasori
Tsunade
Gaara
Kakazu
Deidara
Sandaime Kazekage
Mei Terumei


*A-(Kage Level)*
Kinkaku
Ginkaku 
Hebi Sasuke
Hiruzen (old)
Mifune
Hanzo(rusty)

*B+ (Elite Jounin)*
Konan
Kitsuchi
Asuma
Hidan
Chiyo
Darui
Dan
Naruto (Pre SM)
Kankorou
Hyuuga Hiashi
Hyuuga Hizashi
Kimmiamaro


*B (Jonin Tier)*
Chouji
Yamato
Zabuza
Nara Shikaku 
Amakichi Chouza
Chojuro
Juugo
Ao
Suigetsu
Inoichi

*B- (Tobetsku Jonin)*
Akatsuchi
Kurenai 
Kurotsuchi
Shikamaru
Fu
Torune
Sai
Temari
Hyuuga Neji
Zetsu
Rock Lee
C
Baki



*C+ (High Chunin)*
Kiba
Samui
Mitarashi Anko
Aburame Shino
Sakura
Omoi
Gekko Hayate
Hyuuga Hinata

*C (Mid Chunin)*
Shizune
Atsui
Shin
Karui
Aoba
Shiranui Genma
Tayuya
Kidomaru
Haku 
Sakon-Ukon
Jirobo

*C- (Low Chunin)*
Karin
Tenten 
Ino
Uchiha Obito(Gaiden)
Ebisu

*D+ (High Genin)*
Umino Iruka
Mizuki
Zaku Abumi
Yoroi Akadō
Konohamaru

*D (Mid Genin)*
Maki 
Dosu
Rin
Demon Brothers

*D-( Low Genin)*
Kin Tsuchi
Misumi Tsurugi 
Oobro Brothers


----------



## Daylight (Sep 6, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> How about this approach: we reach a consensus on one ninja in each tier. One poster-boy per tier should be doable, and then we have a solid spectrum of power to calibrate our votes. We could even use Dr. White's list to just pick _one_ universally acceptable ninja for each tier, and then slowly _add_ other ninja based on those benchmarks.
> 
> With our current method, while the initial results were essentially a perfect mean of voter opinion, notwithstanding the imperfect intervals between tiers, I think having universal benchmarks and then meticulously adding characters would be more fun and have promote more in depth discussion for each character.
> 
> It might even prove to be a more accurate tier list overall, as I doubt all posters remember all details, and in arguing for a character to be closer to one poster-boy than the next, those details are more likely to be considered by everybody. Of course, I just like this thread in general, so I'll participate no matter what.​



I think this is a brilliant idea.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 6, 2012)

I support Strategos's idea.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> How about this approach: we reach a consensus on one ninja in each tier. One poster-boy per tier should be doable, and then we have a solid spectrum of power to calibrate our votes. We could even use Dr. White's list to just pick _one_ universally acceptable ninja for each tier, and then slowly _add_ other ninja based on those benchmarks.
> 
> With our current method, while the initial results were essentially a perfect mean of voter opinion, notwithstanding the imperfect intervals between tiers, I think having universal benchmarks and then meticulously adding characters would be more fun and promote more in depth discussion for each character.
> 
> It might even prove to be a more accurate tier list overall, as I doubt all posters remember all details, and in arguing for a character to be closer to one poster-boy than the next, those details are more likely to be considered by everybody. Of course, I just like this thread in general, so I'll participate no matter what.​



*Vote to use Strategos' Tier System:*: Strategos, Dr.White, Daylight, WPK

*Vote not to use Strategos' Tier System:*


----------



## KnightGhost (Sep 6, 2012)

This how i thought it should go from the begining.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2012)

So I take it we can count on your vote this election?


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 6, 2012)

I vote for Strategos' idea as well. I believe I suggested something like that much earlier.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 6, 2012)

No, you're all crazy. I was the first person in history to think of the idea. Love me. But  if anybody would like to put up a prototype suggestion, that'd be nice. I'll suggest one in a bit.​


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2012)

*Vote to use Strategos' Tier System:*: Strategos, Dr.White, Daylight, WPK, KnightGhost, Shintebukuro

*Vote not to use Strategos' Tier System:*


----------



## Turrin (Sep 6, 2012)

I really don't support starting the entire tier list over again. I honestly don't think there are such great errors with the current tier list that this is necessary, nor do I think that redoing the process is going to change anything unless we have a drastic difference in the users that are voting, which doesn't seem likely. 

I also don't think anyone save Rikudo sannin for S+ (Maybe Edo Madara for S- if your lucky) will get a unanimous vote to be in a certain tier, so I don't think deciding one character is agree to be in a certain tier is even possible for the other tiers. I don't think people realize until they tabulate the votes how different peoples perceptions of characters are. 

I still believe the right way to go is to continue with the current tier list and set 5-6 people in charge of the revision process and double checking. Furthermore I believe that that if we just allow the tier list to be overhauled it's going to open the door to every time some people aren't happy with a specific placement of 1 character poster revision that they will complain for an overhaul. 

However if you guys really feel a complete overhaul is the only sensible option (which I don't understand), than going with Super Mod Naruto's idea seems a-lot more sensible and feasible to me.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2012)

Yeah I vote we start with an easy one Nidaime Mizukage. We know he is portrayed to be roughly equal to Mu and he has a great arsenal. Water bullet pierces bodies, Few can see past his genjutsu without knowledge and Joki Boy is something else. He I would put him in the Elite Kage or S- Tier. Since you added Z I suppose that will be God Tier, and S+ will be Demi-God Tier(seeing as they are not as powerful as Rikudo and didn't create ninjutsu, but they are the closest thing to him.)


*Vote to use Strategos' Tier System:*: Strategos, Dr.White, Daylight, WPK, KnightGhost, Shintebukuro

*Vote not to use Strategos' Tier System:* Turrin


----------



## Turrin (Sep 6, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> How do people feel about these poster-boys?
> 
> *Z*
> Rikudō Sennin
> ...



All this does is move everyone up 1 tier and the results are going to be nigh identical except everyone will be 1 tier higher than there current placement with some minor variants. Though in reality it still will represent the same exact placement in the grand scheme of things, since all that was added is another tier Z.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 6, 2012)

Yes. I dislike Rikudō Sennin being *S+* since the "+" means that *S+* are only slightly above *S* ninja. Rikudō Sennin was literally a god with the ability to create with his imagination, create moons, etc.

However, that's not the point of the suggestion. It's to assign non-controversial ninja to each tier, which gives people something tangible to shape their lists around rather than abstract letters.​


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2012)

Turrin said:


> All this does is move everyone up 1 tier and the results are going to be nigh identical except everyone will be 1 tier higher than there current placement with some minor variants. Though in reality it still will represent the same exact placement in the grand scheme of things, since all that was added is another tier Z.



The problems with your system are as followed:
-Rikudo Senin getting his own tier, why? Easily fixable though

-The tiers we have so far are completely arbitrary and hold no rank, most of the list is jammbled in places as well which makes comparing the group focused irrelevant. We saw this happen with Gai, people we making arguments that he should be in the A- Tier because Kisame was placed there(Kisame was not formally addressed therefore pretty irrelevant in the "grand scheme of things"),* with this system we have pre defined Tiers which characters must be placed in. By placing one character sample representative for each tier we can compare more effectively. *

Z(God Tier)
S+(Demi God)
S(Transcendent)
S-(Elite Kage)
A+(High Kage)
A(Mid Kage)
A-(Low Kage)
B+(Elite Jounin)
B(Jonin Tier)
B-(Tobetsku Jounin)
C+(High Chunin)
C(Mid Chunin)
C-(Low Chunin)
D+(High Genin)
D(Mid Genin)
D-(Low Genin)

Each Tier with a sample representative.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 6, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Yes. I dislike Rikudō Sennin being *S+* since the "+" means that *S+* should still be comparable to *S* ninja. Rikudō Sennin was literally a god with the ability to create with his imagination.​


Most of the character in S-tier have in-fact been compared to Rikudo Sennin in some fashion, so I don't really see a problem with that. However even if one does have a problem with that to start from scratch again just because of this is silly. Rikudo being in a league (tier) of his own  more than symbolizes his superiority.




Strategoob said:


> However, that's not the point of the suggestion. It's to assign non-controversial ninja to each tier, which gives people something tangible to shape their lists around rather than abstract letters.​


You assume that any ninja besides Rikudo is non controversial and I tabulated the votes and that is not the case. The second closest is Madara, but even than there were posters who thought he should be placed with Rikudo.



Dr. White said:


> The problems with your system are as followed:
> -Rikudo Senin getting his own tier, why? Easily fixable though


Yet you support Strategoob's idea where Rikudo gets not only his own tier, but a tier far above other individuals?



> -The tiers we have so far are completely arbitrary and hold no rank, most of the list is jammbled in places as well which makes comparing the group focused irrelevant. We saw this happen with Gai, people we making arguments that he should be in the A- Tier because Kisame was placed there(Kisame was not formally addressed therefore pretty irrelevant in the "grand scheme of things"),* with this system we have pre defined Tiers which characters must be placed in. By placing one character sample representative for each tier we can compare more effectively. *


This flaw can be resolved by the revision process.

Now here's the flaws with Strategoob's idea. People are never going unanimously  agree on 1 character as a Representative of each tier. Second to try and place every other character in a specific tier based 1 one character example is going to cause extreme flaws in the list. At least with the current method there are many character examples, if people are ignoring those examples that is not going to change in Strategoob's idea ether.


----------



## GaaraFromTheHood (Sep 6, 2012)

I also vote for Stratego's idea, but with an important change: I don't think we should include the Rikudou Sennin. It makes no sense to take up a "shinobi" class, when in Narutoverse he CREATED the damn shinobis. If we want to see him there, we should keep him on his own on the top of the list, but why would you put a character like Madara, Kabuto or Naruto in a tier with someone they can never attain? And I understand that many expect Naruto to become the next Rikudou (or if you think like me, for multiple characters to become Rikudous in their own way) but one thing is to be the creator and another is to be descended from him. There can only be one creator, the first jinchuuruki of the Jiuubi, separated that into the bijuus, gave birth to the Senju & Uchiha bloodlines, to ninjutsu itself. So please, let's reserve the S+ for the actual shinobis that are there or can attain it, not for someone that can not be compared with anyone else.

I also think (as few have said in this thread) that removing him would solve some of the problems with this list, and avoid the crowding of people like mid-level Akatsukis like Kakuzu and Sasori, Kakashi and Gai, upper class Sannin like Jiraiya and Oro, and then with people like Danzo, Hanzo and the White Fang. It becomes kind of ridiculous if all of those are in the same category. 

Sooooo, I used Mr. White's tiers and moved people around to do a revised starting scale with representative key people. Key people because the less people we can vote on as representing each tier, the easier it'll be to pick one. Also I kept some of the contentious people to show my view. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Rikudo Sennin*

*S+(God Tier)*
Edo Madara
Naruto (current)

*S (Transcendent Tier)*
Hashirama
Nagato
Minato
Itachi

*S-(Elite Kage)*
Hiruzen (Prime)
Killer Bee
White Fang
Hanzo (Prime)

*A+(High Kage)*
Yondaime Raikage
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Oonoki
Danzo

*A (Mid Kage)*
Kakashi
Gai
Kisame
Sasori
Tsunade
Gaara

*A-(Kage Level)*
Kakuzu
Deidara
Sandaime Kazekage
Mei Terumei

*B+ (Elite Jounin)*
Konan
Hidan
Chiyo
Darui
Dan

*B (Jonin Tier)*
Yamato
Zabuza


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2012)

Rikudo should not be a factor in comparing any character lower than S+ Tier because he is unbeatable, and is never going to fight anybody in this manga. Z Tier makes him exclusive from the list. S+ is where the Tiers should stop for Top Tiers in Naruto, and ecend downwards for each tier. Once again your tier system has *arbitrary tier rankings* , is irrelevant because many people compiled the first list making any *comparison in the beginning stages irrelevant and will cause problems further down the road* , finally voting on 3 characters causes people to split up their descision process making it harder to recall certain details, and fully scope 1 character. We would still vote on chaacters but said votes would need a *backed response* and of course majority would rule.

Simply switching and starting over with this better system will be beneficial for the accuracy of the tier list, which should be the number one priority of this thread, after democracy. Right now Strats idea is in favor.

No what your pointing out as a flaw is actually part of the reason this system is better. Having a representative example will make it easier for comparison, once again instead of comparing characters to other characters that have the distinct possibility ofbeing moved around, once again I reference the Gai/Kisame situation


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2012)

Alright, Dr. White, the real issue with using titles such as Mid Kage is that it makes some placements paradoxical. Sasori, for instance, defeated the strongest Kazekage, which means he would be an elite Kage at a minimum, even if he doesn't fit in with those in the Elite Kage tier. This is why the letter system, with one represenative shinobi, seems best to me. And Turrin, if there really are _no_ ninja that can universally be placed as a represenative, then perhaps we should start with simplicty before making it more complex. Eliminate the + and - for the initial placements of S, A, B, C, D, and E. Then discussion and whatnot can make the fine tuning.​


----------



## Cord (Sep 7, 2012)

> How about this approach: we reach a consensus on one ninja in each tier. One poster-boy per tier should be doable, and then we have a solid spectrum of power to calibrate our votes. We could even use Dr. White's list to just pick one universally acceptable ninja for each tier, and then slowly add other ninja based on those benchmarks.
> 
> With our current method, while the initial results were essentially a perfect mean of voter opinion, notwithstanding the imperfect intervals between tiers, I think having universal benchmarks and then meticulously adding characters would be more fun and promote more in depth discussion for each character.
> 
> It might even prove to be a more accurate tier list overall, as I doubt all posters remember all details, and in arguing for a character to be closer to one poster-boy than the next, those details are more likely to be considered by everybody. Of course, I just like this thread in general, so I'll participate no matter what.



I agree with this.

Vote to use Strategos' Tier System:: Strategos, Dr.White, Daylight, WPK, KnightGhost, Shintebukuro, Cordelia

Vote not to use Strategos' Tier System: Turrin


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Alright, Dr. White, the real issue with using titles such as Mid Kage is that it makes some placements paradoxical. Sasori, for instance, defeated the strongest Kazekage, which means he would be a elite Kage at a minimum, even if he doesn't quite fit in with those already dubbed Elite Kages. This is why the letter system, with one represenative shinobi, seems best to me.​



You are looking at the rankings wrong. Elite Kage doesn't mean the strongest from each village. The strongest Kage from the sand can be < the weakest Hokage so on and so forth. The point of the terms is to relate to people title already established in the Manga along with the corresponding letters(which just so happens to work out.) The Elite means the best under transcendant tier. Once again why would we have arbitrary tiers that have no meaning? An S class ninja should mean something as should A rank so on and so forth. 

I don't understand how we would have a sample representaive of something with no definition. Furthermore the example you used confuses me very much, why would account each country's kage's in terms of each tier instead of looking at each kage individually and then ranking on defined terms? Sasori may be the strongest ninja from the Sand but that doesn't mean he can hang with elites like Mu, or Minato.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 7, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Rikudo should not be a factor in comparing any character lower than S+ Tier because he is unbeatable, and is never going to fight anybody in this manga. Z Tier makes him exclusive from the list. S+ is where the Tiers should stop for Top Tiers in Naruto, and ecend downwards for each tier.


Your talking about arbitrary, but I can't think of anything more arbitrary than replace S+ with Z, they serve the same purpose. There is no difference between a character who is S- Tier and 2 Tiers bellow Rikudo Sennin and a character who is S Tier who is 2 tiers bellow Rikudo sennin, their placement in the grand scheme of things remains the same. 



> nce again your tier system has arbitrary tier rankings , is irrelevant because many people compiled the first list making any comparison in the beginning stages irrelevant and will cause problems further down the road


The first list was a jumping off point. The intended purpose of this suggested format, which wasn't even suggested by me, but voted by popular demand, was to create jumping off point and it has done so pretty well this far. Just because people believe there are problems with characters placements post-revision doesn't change that, because people will have problems with characters placements post-vote if we did strategoob's method as well and say the same-thing.



> finally voting on 3 characters causes people to split up their descision process making it harder to recall certain details, and fully scope 1 character.


I really don't think people have a problem considering 3 characters at 1 time. Though again the amount of characters was also decided by popular vote. If you change it now, your just going to have people complaining for other reasons, asking for it to be changed.



> We would still vote on chaacters but said votes would need a backed response


Most people are indeed providing a backed up response. If you enforce the back up response rule too much than voting turn outs will go down and the list won't reflect the popular opinion of the library so much as the people willing to make long ass posts.  



> and of course majority would rule.


I was going to go with a majority rule, but by popular vote people wanted averages. Again if you go with a majority rule you'll just have other people complaining for something else. Though for the record I think the averaging rule was a smart idea, since it balances things out and helps to prevent foul play. I.E. I'm going to PM/VM all my fellow fans to vote for one specific character to be X Tier to form a majority.



> Simply switching and starting over with this better system will be beneficial for the accuracy of the tier list, which should be the number one priority of this thread


I'll bet you that the "accuracy" stays the same with their being some who think it's fairly "accurate" and some who don't. Because the definitions of what people consider an accurate tier list vary widely, I know from all the time I spent on this.



> , after democracy. Right now Strats idea is in favor.


And than 1 of 2 things will happen after a few controversial characters are voted on. Ether people actually participating in the thread will dwindle to very small number, because people will get disgruntled and not even both to complain about the new list because they won't want to start over all over again. Or another tier list format will become popular as the "solution" to the problem a certain group is having with the placements of characters. So should we change the tier list every time that happens, ignoring the many hours of work the prior moderators put into the previous incarnation of the list and the fact that we never saw said list to it's completion?



> No what your pointing out as a flaw is actually part of the reason this system is better.


I disagree that placing an entire tier around 1 character example will result in greater accuracy. And the reasons it will cause more problems are as follows:

1. I could be wrong, but i'm 99% sure it's impossible to get a unanimous vote on character Representative. This means that it will be decided by a majority vote, however that means a large number of participants won't agree with that character being that tier, which will cause a significant amount of problems. 

2. Basing an entire tier off one Representative is a crazy idea considering the varying opinions of participants. Why? Because you'll have tons of people basing their vote off of the fact that a character can beat that 1 representative. Say we use Killer B for S- Tier (which already I don't agree with), your going to have a bunch of posters saying well Kisame is S- or even S tier because he can beat Killer B. 

I could go on, but i'll stop there.



> Having a representative example will make it easier for comparison, once again instead of comparing characters to other characters that have the distinct possibility ofbeing moved around, once again I reference the Gai/Kisame situation


People should be able to place characters base around the characters they don't believe should be moved. Whether that's the case or not should not change their vote. Yes some people won't do this, but some people won't both to consider the representative ether. Plus after the first character is placed beyond the representative, your going to have the same problem anyway placing other characters, unless their will be no revision process in this tier list configuration, which if so, seems like it will cause even greater inaccuracy and less a-lot meant for evolution of the list based on new feats, statements, etc..


----------



## Inferno (Sep 7, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> How do people feel about these poster-boys?
> 
> *Z*
> Rikudō Sennin
> ...



Tobi (Bijuus, Gedo Mazo, Izanagi) should be the S+ benchmark. He packs the most firepower and hax.

OT: I don't think we need to start over. I'm with Turrin.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2012)

that is too much to reply to Turrin, We'll have to agree to disagree and see how things turn out.

*Vote to use Strategos' Tier System:*: Strategos, Dr.White, Daylight, WPK, KnightGhost, Shintebukuro, Gaaraofthehood, Cordelia

*Vote not to use Strategos' Tier System:* Turrin, Inferno


----------



## Turrin (Sep 7, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> And Turrin, if there really are _no_ ninja that can universally be placed as a represenative, then perhaps we should start with simplicty before making it more complex. Eliminate the + and - for the initial placements of S, A, B, C, D, and E. Then discussion and whatnot can make the fine tuning.[/indent]


There won't be any placements universally agreed on then ether. Furthermore what you don't realize that your doing by allowing a start from scratched method whenever people don't like a placement is opening the door for this to happen every time. Finally you don't even say how long this vote for a new tier list format will be open for and how many votes it needs to pass.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2012)

I think if the majority wants to start from scartch, then we should start from scartch every time. However, I don't believe that will occur if we are more meticulous with each ninja's placement.

But yeah, the new format was merely suggestion, and I don't care how long it stays open, how many votes is required, etc. Like I said initially, I don't mind either way, but a lot of people seem bothered.

And it's understandable. If you take liberals' opinions and conservatives' opinions and shake them up in a box then nobody will be happy. A forum is for discussion and debate, not averaging.

Granted, debate often entrenches conviction, so there may be little ending difference, but we're still sort of sapping the fun by making a prototype tier list based on averages and not discussion...​


----------



## Inferno (Sep 7, 2012)

We should set up an actual poll, asking if we should start from scratch or not.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2012)

I do feel like if we start over though the mods might get mad and close this, maybe we should just create a council like Turrin said. I don't even know right now I have school in 6 and half hours, and am so tired. Lets just agree on *something reasonable*


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2012)

Inferno, that kind of mindset is why a lot of people are bothered in this tier list discussion thread. If a member can't take the thirty seconds to explain and write out their opinion, or read and weigh the opinions of others, then they shouldn't be weighing in anyway.

Granted, a lot of people aren't sure what this thread is exactly. If it's just going to be a mean of the library's opinion, then we just need one member to use an excel sheet, record individual lists, and post the averaged results. If we're discussing and debating though...​


----------



## Inferno (Sep 7, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Inferno, that kind of mindset is why a lot of people are bothered in this tier lsit discussion thread. If a member can't take the thirty seconds to explain and write out their opinion, or read and weigh the opinions of others, then they shouldn't be weighing in anyway.
> 
> Granted, a lot of people aren't sure what this thread is exactly. If it's just going to be a mean of the libraries opinion, then we just need one member to use an excel sheet, record individual lists, and post the averaged results. *If we're discussing and debating though...*​



Ah, I see what you mean. Then a poll wouldn't do any good, 

@bold: I'm down for that. But I might actually be leaning towards your idea now...get a benchmark, then discuss one character at a time.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Inferno, that kind of mindset is why a lot of people are bothered in this tier lsit discussion thread. If a member can't take the thirty seconds to explain and write out their opinion, or read and weigh the opinions of others, then they shouldn't be weighing in anyway.
> 
> *Granted, a lot of people aren't sure what this thread is exactly. If it's just going to be a mean of the libraries opinion, then we just need one member to use an excel sheet, record individual lists, and post the averaged results. If we're discussing and debating though...*​



Final Input of the night I agree with the highlighted, if it is the former I'll just make my list and go raid the battledome, but if this list will actually mean something, and we are gonna constructively build and debate this im on board.

Signing out.


----------



## GaaraFromTheHood (Sep 7, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Inferno, that kind of mindset is why a lot of people are bothered in this tier list discussion thread. If a member can't take the thirty seconds to explain and write out their opinion, or read and weigh the opinions of others, then they shouldn't be weighing in anyway.
> 
> Granted, a lot of people aren't sure what this thread is exactly. If it's just going to be a mean of the libraries opinion, then we just need one member to use an excel sheet, record individual lists, and post the averaged results. If we're discussing and debating though...​



I totally agree with this. This is not another poll, or another popularity contest. Presenting your arguments, reading others' opinions for support or to disagree, everyone gains a bit more knowledge, and in the end whatever we get is an informed tier ranking system, with a foundation of thought and documented opinions. 

Totally unlike seeing a name and saying "yes, he/she belongs in the highest tier available !!".


----------



## Turrin (Sep 7, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> I think if the majority wants to start from scartch, then we should start from scartch every time. ​


The majority is very fickle. 1 minute it's voting for what we currently have, the next it's voting for something else. 



> However, I don't believe that will occur if we are more meticulous with each ninja's placement.


I don't see how we can be more meticulous than having the list in a consistent state of revisions, but that's just me.



> But yeah, the new format was merely suggestion, and I don't care how long it stays open, how many votes is required, etc. Like I said initially, I don't mind either way, but a lot of people seem bothered.


I just think that if you & whoever else started this vote by yourselves without even consulting a mod or myself. And quite frankly is completely off topic to what I was trying to get the thread to discuss, help out with, etc... You should be:

A) Preparing this as an official vote, that has the above things Incorporated and planned. 

B) Be prepared to moderate the creation of this new tier list (and all the work that goes with it) as well as have other people waiting in the wings willing to do so as well. Because you guys can't seriously expect me to continue to moderate dealing with stuff like this.



> And it's understandable. If you take liberals' opinions and conservatives' opinions and shake them up in a box then nobody will be happy. A forum is for discussion and debate, not averaging.
> 
> Granted, debate often entrenches conviction, so there may be little ending difference, but we're still sort of sapping the fun by making a prototype tier list based on averages and not discussion...


We can discuss any and all the characters, since none are exempt from the revision process. Plus again prototype list was decided by popular demand.



> Granted, a lot of people aren't sure what this thread is exactly. If it's just going to be a mean of the library's opinion, then we just need one member to use an excel sheet, record individual lists, and post the averaged results. If we're discussing and debating though...


It's the libraries opinion. Debate and discussion isn't going to change that fact.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2012)

I didn't mean start anything off topic. I saw the title of the thread and so I discussed a new approach. Some people agreed with my suggestion, and took the initiative to vote for it.

The problem with having this current list in a state of revision is that opinions have been mixed, so many of the placements in the middle are warped, and adjusting ninja relative to others becomes chaotic.

If we are meticulous when originally placing ninja next to accepted represenatives, then we'll have a foundation of relativity _and_ reason. Discussion would therefore improve. 

Moreover, I don't think an overlord moderator will be necessary with this new system. Posters just suggest tier represenatives, vote on tier represenatives, and then introduce controversial characters. 

For instance, Sasori or Gai supporters will be able to more accurately explain why they are closer to the unanimously agreed on represenative A than represenative B and support with evidence.

Currently, we have so much confusion because so many variables (characters) are in mean positions that any revisionary measures and discussion become jumbled _for everybody_.

If finding a progression of characters dividing tiers is feasible, then we'll have official anchors, which the vast majority agrees upon, to compare introduced characters to.​


----------



## Turrin (Sep 7, 2012)

*EVERYONE SHOULD READ THIS*



Strategoob said:


> I didn't mean start anything off topic. I saw the title of the thread and so I discussed a new approach. Some people agreed with my suggestion, and took the initiative to vote for it..​


All I'm saying is whoever these people are (as well as you) should have done something a little more official and been prepared to take over as moderators (as well as have a moderator people & more specifically mods agree to) if they want a start from scratch vote. I'm also letting everyone else know that I will still participate in this new list to a certain extent, but i'm not going to being doing the work as moderator, because I won't spend a month creating something just to start all over again, when people aren't happy with a few character placements or want a Z Tier. I don't have the patience for that stuff, nor do I feel it fair for people to expect me to redo all this work at their whims .

Now don't get me wrong this tier list was an idea I discussed with a mod with the basis of being a Library Tier list and I want to keep it that way. So if some people actually come forward with a plan and have a moderator in mind that Mods especially can agree on, than I'm more than willing to step down and what not. In-fact I'm getting a little tired of moderating this thread anyway and I am busy with other personal shit like (Work/College) as well as trying to do some audio reviews of stuff in the manga as a side project.

But what I am against is this idea where, people start a vote out of nowhere, with no actions taken to back it up (referring to the above shit) and just expect me to roll with it and do all the work over again, because they guess that a certain method might work better.



Strategoob said:


> The problem with having this current list in a state of revision is that opinions have been mixed, so many of the placements in the middle are warped, and adjusting ninja relative to others becomes chaotic.​



Opinions will always be mixed.



> If we are meticulous when originally placing ninja next to accepted represenatives, then we'll have a foundation of relativity and reason. Discussion would therefore improve.


So your going to place ninja around 1 single representative that a good majority of participants don't agree on. If anything this will be less accurate, but at the very least it will have the same problems.



> Moreover, I don't think an overlord moderator will be necessary with this new system. Posters just suggest tier represenatives, vote on tier represenatives, and then introduce controversial characters.


This isn't the KC where things can move that smoothly. KC only moves that smoothly because people have been at it a long time and all know their roles. 



> The Sasori fans will be able to more accurately explain why Sasori is closer to the unanimously agreed on represenative A than represenative B and support their evidence.


They can do that currently with characters on A Tier vs A- Tier. Nothing changes, except now opinions are all based on how Sasori performs/is portrayed, etc... as oppose to one single representative, which people have greatly varying opinions about.



> Currently, we have so much confusion because Gai is there, Shisui is here, Minato's up there, Kimimaro's over there, etc. that any revisionary measures are so jumbled for everybody.


What is confusing about it? That's their voted on placement. The "confusion" is that people don't like their placement, which will be the same thing with your suggestion.​


----------



## Jad (Sep 7, 2012)

How about we just scratch the idea 

Seriously, don't call it *official* if a few people vote for each characters placement. Does not represent Konoha Library, it represents a couple of peoples ideas, seeing as those couple of people won't all agree on the same thing.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2012)

I think the title could easily be revised to _Official Konoha Library Tier *Discussion*_, because the point of the thread was to not have tier lists threads popping up every other day.​


----------



## Turrin (Sep 7, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> I think the title could easily be revised to _Official Konoha Library Tier *Discussion*_, because the point of the thread was to not have tier lists threads popping up every other day.​



I'm going to quote the super mod I talked to when actually creating this thread:




Naruto said:


> *THIS IS A POPULARITY CONTEST*
> 
> You people need to understand that.* It is a collective understanding of what, in the eyes of the narutoforums community, are the strongest shinobi.*
> 
> ...



A discussion would just be people throwing out their list and discussing it like BD. Which will result in chaos and flame wars, with nothing accomplished. The point of this thread is for the Library participants to vote on the characters and via these votes place them into a list. Discussion comes secondary to that to process.

*Edit:* Again I will support anyone who is willing to put their money where their mouth is. What someone should have done is PM/VM a bunch of people participating in the thread proposing an idea. If enough people agreed with them, they should have then VM/PM'd me with a list of these people. I would have then opened the thread up to a official vote with end start to end date. If the Majority agreed with this new tier list or thread type, than I would step down, but that person's job would not be over. They would than have to PM/VM a mod their idea and get their permission to replace this thread with their idea including whatever changes to their idea the Mod wanted them to make.

Since we already started this discussion , the first part of this, of VM/PM me and what not, is now pointless (though again it would have been the right way to go about it), however the rest of this shit still applies. 

That's all I got to say, now I'm off to bed.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2012)

I think you have too little faith in the Library. Konoha Colosseum members aren't superior to Library members because of training. We simply have a refined system in the Colosseum, but the ultimate rule is that majority rules, and it's a rule people respect.​


> So your going to place ninja around 1 single representative that a good majority of participants don't agree on. If anything this will be less accurate, but at the very least it will have the same problems.



I don't think you're understanding the point of the represenative system. The represenative is someone that a good majority do agree on. For instance, Edo Madara being a tier above Nagato, and Nagato being a tier above Killer Bee, etc.​


----------



## Jad (Sep 7, 2012)

The community? What *community*, you had a couple of people every now and than voting on a characters placement. That is a far cry from a community that boasts about a 100 people or more (I could be way off). Tier lists for example, get deleted, yes because they keep getting made, but for the reason that it causes people to start going nuts at each other. Reason mods delete a thread with the note; "This thread will just cause flame wars". This very thread is just that. It's just a nice pretty section to go nuts at each other. If no one is going to be happy, than why bloody make it in the first place?

"You CANNOT quantify subjectivity. You CANNOT pick and choose who has the best arguments, because everyone and their mom will disagree. If we could all agree on something like that, then this section wouldn't exist."

This thread shouldn't exist BECAUSE of this explanation. That reason shouldn't be used to back up WHY this section should exist.


----------



## Ptolemy (Sep 7, 2012)

As others have said, this thread needs to decide what it is. If it's as simple as averaging the opinion of library members, then all you need is a weekly poll and someone with a spreadsheet to average the results. The fact that you have to post reasoning for your vote to be counted limits the amount of people who will participate due to effort and it also implies some degree of quality control in the voting process, and hence encourages debate and controversey. 

If this is a discussions/debate, than I think at first, wide broad tiers would work best. As Stategoob suggested exemplify one character (or perhaps two/three) for a particular tier, to establish what level of strength that tier represents, and then add characters gradually. Once we have the several established tiers, you can than refine the tiers in X+/X/X-. If that proves too difficult, than you can just leave the tier list at the second stage and still have a good result.

I also agree with strategoob in the fact that I do think you can get an general consensus with more generalised tiers. For example, I don't think you will have *much* controversey with the following tiers (I won't include the riduko sennin for the obvious problems he creates)

*S+*_The Strongest Level_
Edo Madara
Obito
BM Naruto

*S* _Exceptionally Strong But Not The Strongest_
Nagato
Killer Bee
Itachi
Minato

*A* _Average Strong Person_
Lesser Akatsuki
Gokage
Former Kages

*B* _Powerful but not the elite_
Chiyo
Zabuza
Yamato
Dan
Asuma

*C* _Above Average_
Sound Four
Special Jonnins

*D* _Average_
White Zetsu
Iruka
Mizuki

*E* _Below Average/Novice_
Rin
Kin
Zaku


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2012)

Excellent suggestion, Ptolemy, and I approve of the prototype, although I think Kakashi with his new mastery of Kamui would be rather fun to discuss, and I'd personally like to discuss Kimimaro's hype and feats more in depth too. 

If we can shave down your list to have fewer ninja in each tier, maybe two or three, then we could maximize discussion and address potential anomalies like Ōnoki or Hidan for being particularly strong or weak relative to their nominal peers.

The safest way, I would think, is to use commonly accepted and clearly and unambiguously portrayed instances of a ninja being a tier above another whenever feasible. With that in mind, I would suggest this as a skeletal skeleton of the generalized tier list:

*S+*
Edo Madara

*S*
Itachi _(de-hyped by Madara)_

*A*
Orochimaru _(de-hyped by Itachi)_

*B*
Part I Kakashi _(de-hyped by Orochimaru)_

*C*
Chūnin Exam Naruto _(de-hyped by Kakashi)_

*D*
Mizuka _(de-hyped by Naruto)_

*E*
Part I Sakura 

And then we can immediately begin discussion of adding characters, preferably one at a time, and should the generalized tier list become full, then we can begin the process of differentiating the large tiers with addition + or - category subdivisions.
​


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 7, 2012)

Kinda agree with Strategoob. But there too many tier and subdivisions 

I think the problem with the tier list starts with the upper tiers
Genin and Chuunin are fine and hardly need any subdivisions like + or -

Then come the Jonin rank, which can easily be divided in 3 categories
- Tankubetso Jonin  ---> i.e. Anko (A-)
- (regular) Jonin     ---> i.e. Neji   (A)
- Elite Jonin           ---> i.e. Asuma/Zabuza etc (A+)

Pretty sure everybody agrees with the above sofar






The comes the hard part, ranking Kages. I think we should use Naruto's (the fucking main character!!) growth as as reference points for different tiers



Look at the above image. Kishi could not have spelled out upper tiers out any better for us
You can easily create the upper tiers from this image. 

S++ tier = BM Naruto
S+ tier   = KCM Naruto
S tier     = SM Naruto
S- tier    = FRS Naruto

These 4 subdivisions are all "Kage level" and for simplicity's sake lets refer it to S-rank. From - to ++

Now if we look further we know Kishi portrays Naruto and Sasuke as equals as the story progresses. You can easily fill in the blanks based on this

S++ tier = BM Naruto    ~ EMS Sasuke
S+ tier   = KCM Naruto  ~ MS Sasuke
S tier     = SM Naruto    ~ Hebi/CS2 Sasuke
S- tier    = FRS Naruto   ~ Kirin Sasuke

Again continue to fill in the blanks for their "benchmarks"

S++ tier = BM Naruto    ~ Hashirama 
S+ tier   = KCM Naruto  ~ Minato 
S tier     = SM Naruto    ~ Jiraya 
S- tier    = FRS Naruto   ~ (early pt II) Kakashi


Again above (S tier) would be Z tier I guess. Only ones I can see being in this is Rinnegan Madara & Rinnegan Tobi

And above that Rikudou. But no need for him to have a tier. That mofo was basically God


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 7, 2012)

So I guess the first question is do we make this a discussion or a simple vote using a poll?

Honestly, I don't think people who do not wish for or are tired of tier discussions should be excluded from the list. _Everyone_'s opinion should count to make this an _official_ list in my mind. I can see people fear that the quality will drop, but no list is perfect and at least everyone can voice their opinion in stead of a handful of people for a period of three days.

Besides, if a poll does the counting there is little to no moderation required. The polls should be public to avoid dupes as well as have some quality control.


----------



## Faustus (Sep 7, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Kinda agree with Strategoob. But there too many tier and subdivisions
> 
> I think the problem with the tier list starts with the upper tiers
> Genin and Chuunin are fine and hardly need any subdivisions like + or -
> ...



This + what Strategoob said should be the basis


----------



## Ptolemy (Sep 7, 2012)

Perhaps it would be best if this were to split into a debating/discussion project and an averaging project? It would be interesting to see how the two diverge. 

@ Stategoob

*S+*
Edo Madara, Obito, BM Naruto

*S*
Itachi, Nagato, Killer Bee

*A*
Orochimaru, Tsunade, Ei

*B*
Part 1 Kakashi, Part 1 Kabuto, Juugo

*C*
Tayuya, Jirobo, Kidomaru

*D*
Mizuki, Iruka, Ebisu

*E*
Part 1 Sakura, Rin, Kin

You have the following chains added;

Obito>Nagato>Tsunade>Part 1 Kabuto> Sound Four

BM Naruto>Killer Bee>Ei>Juugo>Sound Four

Then you have a couple of names added in to fill the remaining gaps - now we have three people per tier - enough to account for a degree of variability in strength, but also to know what sort of level is referred too.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 7, 2012)

Lets start this again!!!


----------



## Turrin (Sep 7, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> I think you have too little faith in the Library. Konoha Colosseum members aren't superior to Library members because of training. We simply have a refined system in the Colosseum, but the ultimate rule is that majority rules, and it's a rule people respect.​


Yet, go back and look at how many times people have gone off topic here. Hell people couldn't even keep to 1 system. 



> I don't think you're understanding the point of the represenative system. The represenative is someone that a good majority do agree on. For instance, Edo Madara being a tier above Nagato, and Nagato being a tier above Killer Bee, etc.


I already disagree with the representatives. Edo Madara only 1 Tier above Nagato. Nagato only 1 Tier above Killer B. Unless the Tiers are extremely broad, but 1 representative gives no ability to judge that. Furthermore the main problem I am having is basing an entire tier's placement around 1 single representative leads to many flaws. 




hitokugutsu said:


> Look at the above image. Kishi could not have spelled out upper tiers out any better for us
> You can easily create the upper tiers from this image.
> 
> S++ tier = BM Naruto
> ...


The problem is your assuming a progression for Naruto, I.E. that BM Naruto is S++, which I seriously doubt, because I doubt that current BM Naruto is thee last incarnation of Naruto. Mostly likely he will still gain greater power before the end of the story. 

*@Everyone*
Again like I said I'll put up an official vote when someone comes forward willing to be the organizer of this new Tier list, that people can agree with.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 7, 2012)

Turrin why don't you become the organizer of the new tier list.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 7, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Turrin why don't you become the organizer of the new tier list.


First I'm busy with other things, but more importantly I'm not going to start the project over from scratch, every time a group of people want something different, not even finishing the current list. I put the way we originally did the Tier list to vote the first time, people voted for it. Than they saw that they didn't like where their favorite characters were placed and wanted something else. I'm not going to deal with spending time on a whole new tier list, just for another group of people to get disgruntled with the placement of their favorite character and up and vote for something else. 

Also weren't you the one who believe I was bias with the votes and tried to get me replaced by a Mod anyway. So why would you want me as organizer lol.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 7, 2012)

Only thing I don't like is the averaging system. If this new tier list does not have anything to do with averaging then there isn't going to be any room of bias. 

Plus this new approach will mean less work for you. The character with the most votes moves into the tier people voted on. Mush easier to handle IMO.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 7, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Only thing I don't like is the averaging system. If this new tier list does not have anything to do with averaging then there isn't going to be any room of bias.
> 
> Plus this new approach will mean less work for you. The character with the most votes moves into the tier people voted on. Mush easier to handle IMO.



There is no bais with the averaging system ether, it's just that some-times I would miss a vote by mistakes, because very few people were following the format for voting I asked them to (in-order to make it easier to find their votes), and people jumped to the conclusion it was bias. The same thing is going to happen with a new tier list.

Yes it's easier to handle, but my main problem is the idea that i'm not going to put up with people wanting to start from scratch because they are unhappy the current placements of their fav characters. Because it will happened again in this new tier list. So just count me out as the organizer and try to find someone else. My suggestion is ask WolfPrinceKoga. He is a well respected poster and has VM'd me before about wishing to help out with the Tier list.

When you guys get someone who can take over as the organizer I'll put this to an official vote.


----------



## Immortal (Sep 7, 2012)

WPK probably isn't going to want to run this on his own, he's hosting a tourny in the KC already. Turrin it's pretty silly for you to just drop out, you can get other people to assist you as you stated, but I think it's better to start from scratch as well, not just because of the placement of Gai or whatever, but because there are several tiers that are extremely messy and jumbled because the first step we took wasn't a good one.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2012)

I will volunteer to help mod this thread if need be.

Personally I think we should use strategos idea of the whole 
S+
S
A
etc

But having a group of people together with power might be troublesome, I say we create a council of 3 to mod this thread, therefore majority would rule should any problems arise.

I think we should start this back up already, if we are'nt gonna use Strats idea lets stop wasting time, and get on with the list.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2012)

*we need to elect an official organizer*: Turrin

*we don't need to elect an officical organizer*: Strategoob

*we want to try the broad represenative tier system:* Strategos, Dr.White, Daylight, WPK, KnightGhost, Shintebukuro, Gaaraofthehood, Cordelia, Ptolemy, hitokugutsu, Faustus

*we don't want to try the broad represenative tier system:* Turrin


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 7, 2012)

We only need one person to update the tier list in the first post. That's it. We don't need group of people to do one simple job.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2012)

Ok so we will give voters a day to vote or post their system(which I doubt because the more focused members have spoken already) , winner by the end of the day takes majority and we can finally restart this?


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 7, 2012)

Let me lay down a few rules, myself. Everyone just do yourself a favor and listen to me:

1. The tiers should be split even further, a "high" end and a "low" end. The more tiers, the more in depth we can get in our placements; as well as determinations better _being able to satisfy a greater number of people_. 

For instance, I heavily disagree with the idea of MS Sasuke and 4th Raikage being on the same tier. They were near-equal when Sasuke only had stage 1 of his Susano'o, which is but a _tiny fraction_ of Susano'os actual strength. At stage 4, Sasuke would be drastically stronger. So, what do we do? Move Sasuke up one? Raikage down one? I don't think either of those work...

With more in-depth tiers, what we could do is put Sasuke and Raikage on the A tier, but put Sasuke in the higher section and Raikage in the lower. This distinction will allow them to be in the same tier overall _and_ have the clear difference between them shown.

Think about what that allows; now the tiers become more flexible and can accommodate more opinions. _People can reach a compromise instead of one side "winning" and another "losing."_

2. Feats need to go. Suggesting they're part of a "holistic" approach is BS because feats are inherently tied to the Battledome. In the library we discuss the _story_, not specific fights.

*Think about it; the Battledome was created to accommodate VS. topics, correct?* 

Arguing about tiers is not about thinking "Well, who can Kakashi beat on the A tier?" *That's a VS topic, which I think the mods will agree belongs in the Battledome.* Arguing a tier list should consist of looking at what the _story_ implies, the comparisons made in the _story_, etc. 

"Feats" have nothing to do with the story. They are calculations made to be used in the Battledome. *Arguing using feats is invariably tied to VS. Battles*.

And like I said earlier, the second you open up the door for feats, you can't control what comes flowing in. It's like how Jiraiya opened up the seal for Naruto's Kyuubi training, hoping that a little bit of Kyuubi chakra would come out...and of course it gushed out and chaos ensued. "Feats" are a gateway to hypothetical battles, and I think that's clear when people are talking about Kakashi Kamui'ing Jiraiya's head off before he can make a handseal. That's 100% Battledome logic folks. 

Here's what we do: We require every vote to have some reasoning, and the reasoning must explain why they believe, *based on actual events in the story that the author has written,* X character belongs on Y tier. For instance, if you want to argue about Gaara's placement, you might talk about; (1)How his Dad mistook his attack for Shukaku's, (2)how Gaara has seemingly improved since he fought Deidara, (3) how well he did against the 2nd Mizukage, (4) how Deidara used the village against him when they fought, etc etc.

A tier list shouldn't be: "Let me conduct a series of VS. fights to determinate where Gaara belongs. Okay, I have him losing to 3 on the A- tier and beating 7 on the A- tier." That's pure, 100% Battledome territory, and is perfect for _that_ tier list thread. Not this one.


----------



## αce (Sep 7, 2012)

So what's going on?


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> So what's going on?



We started this thread out using Turrin's system. After some mistakes on Turrin's part(and one some posters part) the system got messed up questioning several posters to question said system. As we were reviewing on what we should do, Strategos suggested an idea, that many people took a liking to. Now we are deciding how we should proceed so far people in favor of Strats idea are winning. But I koto'd Strat a while ago so it is secretly all my plan


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Let me lay down a few rules, myself. Everyone just do yourself a favor and listen to me:
> 
> 1. The tiers should be split even further, a "high" end and a "low" end. The more tiers, the more in depth we can get in our placements; as well as determinations better _being able to satisfy a greater number of people_.
> 
> ...



This is reasonable. However, for the initial stages, I think it would be smarter to use my and Ptolemy's broadest break down before making the categorical separations more complex.

And ultimately, feats can probably be more or less bypassed for the broad categorization, but when it comes to subdividing tiers, like the difference between B+ and B, feats will need to be accounted for.​


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 7, 2012)

I agree that feat-arguments shouldn't be used. We should only use portrayal from the manga not how we imagine hypothetical fights turn favourable for our favourite characters in our heads.

Also we should NOT increase the number of tiers. It's fairly hard to rank the characters as it is and increasing the number is just stretching it further. I don't even see how we can get such detail from portrayal anyway. Someone can be stronger, but that doesn't always mean a new tier is required  to accommodate that difference.

We should try to use tiers with meaning, however. Preferably based on Kishimoto's ranking system: 
E (academy student), 
D (genin), 
C (chuunin), 
B (low jonin), 
A (high jonin/Kage),
S (elite jonin/best Kage).​Now since most of the recent manga has been on the A and S levels I suggest we subdivide them into two or three tiers each. This being in line with *Ptolemy* and *Strategoob's* suggestions that we first need to start with few tiers.


*@ Strategoob*
If we don't elect an official organiser who would update the lists? Who would count? I still prefer using polls to maximise participation.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, to get the ball rolling again..








*we need to elect an official organizer*: Turrin

*we don't need to elect an officical organizer*: Strategoob

*we want to try the broad represenative tier system:* Strategos, Dr.White, Daylight, WPK, KnightGhost, Shintebukuro, Gaaraofthehood, Cordelia, Ptolemy, hitokugutsu, Faustus, Sniffers

*we don't want to try the broad represenative tier system:* Turrin

*use purely character portrayal as shown and described in the manga; no hypothetical VS considerations:* shintebukuro, Sniffers

*allow hypothetical VS arguments:* -


----------



## αce (Sep 7, 2012)

Feat only arguments annoy me to no end. Sometimes we are just called upon to use our common sense.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2012)

In terms of updating the list, a moderator can pop in and revise the original post with copypasta from discussion at intervals most convenient for them. We don't need anyone to "officially" count votes, as the voter names are listed.

*try the broad represenative tier system:* Strategos, Dr.White, Daylight, WPK, KnightGhost, Shintebukuro, Gaaraofthehood, Cordelia, Ptolemy, hitokugutsu, Faustus, Sniffers [12]

*don't try the broad represenative tier system:* Turrin [1]​


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 7, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> In terms of updating the list, a moderator can pop in and revise the original post with copypasta from discussion at intervals most convenient for them. We don't need anyone to "officially" count votes, as the voter names are listed.​



I've always stayed clear of the battledome so I'm not sure how this works. Does every poster update the entire list of votes as we are currently doing for voting on the broad tier brackets (like in your post)?​


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2012)

Pretty much a rape vote at this point. We could actually start drafting some stuff, up I am free for the rest of the night so we could get some serious character discussion in. I mean unless somehow this poll does a flop which I doubt

Also If I am getting this right we are just using Hype, and Portrayal while completely ignoring feats?


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2012)

Exactly, Sniffers. So if Goobnoob wanted to vote, then he would copypasta the list, but add his name on the end of wherever he'd like to place his votes for all the public to see. 

I'd _really_ like to stress that feats are required at some point though. Some characters are humble, some arrogant, some lie, and none of the characters are omniscient about others.

To exemplify character inference imperfection: Part I Kakashi thought he could beat Itachi, but knew Orochimaru would rape him, yet Orochimaru knew he stood no chance against Itachi. 

And most portrayal is largely inference based, but certain characters _can be dark horses._ Gai, for instance, was only ever praised by Itachi, yet Gai possesses _phenomenal_ power at his fingertips.



This is why feats are somewhat of a necessity. Some people may argue that Kakashi hasn't really improved because of Kamui, yet look at Kamui's portrayal and databook entry. It's also phenomenal.​


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 7, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Also If I am getting this right we are just using Hype, and Portrayal while completely ignoring feats?


We should vote on that first I think.



Strategoob said:


> Exactly, Sniffers. So if Goobnoob wanted to vote, then he would copypasta the list, but add his name on the end of wherever he'd like to place his votes for all the public to see.
> 
> I'd _really_ like to stress that feats are required at some point though. Some characters are humble, some arrogant, some lie, and none of the characters are omniscient.​


Okay, that seems to work fine.

You can account for a person being humble, but not with a hypothetical VS battle. We should stick to what happens in the manga. I'm fine with saying Kakashi is doing well during this war and has seemingly grown. However, I think arguments such as Kamui GGs Edo Madara should be banned as that never happened and is purely imagination.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2012)

Feats cannot just be thrown out, I can understand not stressing them so much but feats are just as much portrayal as Hype, and is one of the factors when figuring in character tier placement. For example Sasori lost to Sakura, and Chiyo. This will cause people to be misled and believe Sasori is less dangerous or something, all the while not realizing if almost anyone else besides chiyo was there(bar people that are >>> Sasori) it would have been GG for them. Sakura literally lucked out that a puppet master, with 10 legendary puppets, and knowledge was there. I honestly think if anything Hype should be given the cold shoulder, as while personal statements hold some weight it is still subjective within the confines of the manga. Where as feats, and the author's portrayal are objective(despite the difference in perception amongst readers).


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 7, 2012)

Feats are equally as subjective if not more so than hype/portrayal. For examples, SM Naruto's feat of "blitzing" Asura Realm had people believing for a long time that he was around as fast or faster than the Raikage. Later on, we see Naruto's even stronger mode which was specifically noted for its speed(which SM never was) be only slightly faster than the Raikage(and at first Raikage was beating out RM Naruto). Feats misled people into believing that SM Naruto was on the Raikage's level of speed, portrayal later proved otherwise.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Feats are equally as subjective if not more so than hype/portrayal. For examples, SM Naruto's feat of "blitzing" Asura Realm had people believing for a long time that he was around as fast or faster than the Raikage. Later on, we see Naruto's even stronger mode which was specifically noted for its speed(which SM never was) be only slightly faster than the Raikage(and at first Raikage was beating out RM Naruto). Feats misled people into believing that SM Naruto was on the Raikage's level of speed, portrayal later proved otherwise.



That is completely ridiculous though. SM Naruto gained a good speed advantage but his feats were not that as good as Raikage's at all. People obviously were just overrating SM Naruto at the time. Also wasn't the reason for Naruto's hit because of Frog Kata's? I really don't see how SM Naruto could be compared to V2 Ei, V1 yeah it is possible because of his speed and perception boost, but once Ei goes V2 it should be over. SM Naruto's counterpart was able to keep up with V1 Ei, with MS, and even Juugo landed  a hit, didn't do shit, but he still was able to tag him. 

Either way I am fine with the decision I just feel that Feats, should not be completely thrown out.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 7, 2012)

I don't feel they should be completely thrown out either as while many placements can be determined well by portrayal alone, there are some who haven't been focused on enough to properly place them through portrayal alone. Hype/portrayal should always come first for this tier list, though.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I don't feel they should be completely thrown out either as while many placements can be determined well by portrayal alone, there are some who haven't been focused on enough to properly place them through portrayal alone. Hype/portrayal should always come first for this tier list, though.



Agreed. So where do we go from here?


----------



## Turrin (Sep 8, 2012)

Immortal said:


> WPK probably isn't going to want to run this on his own, he's hosting a tourny in the KC already. Turrin it's pretty silly for you to just drop out, you can get other people to assist you as you stated, but I think it's better to start from scratch as well, not just because of the placement of Gai or whatever, but because there are several tiers that are extremely messy and jumbled because the first step we took wasn't a good one.



Have fun with that. You say it's pretty silly to drop out. To which I say why don't you take over.


----------



## GaaraFromTheHood (Sep 8, 2012)

Agree with not using hypothetical VS arguments. Feats need to be considered, but not without understanding all the circumstances involved, as the examples Dr. White (Sasori) and WolfPrinceKiba (Naruto & Raikage) have shown. I just hate when people use feats to make an all encompassing judgement on a character. My example would be Gai vs. Kisame vs. Killer Bee, where it's easy to conclude that Kisame is stronger than Killer Bee because he beat him, or that Gai is much stronger than Kisame because he beat him with Afternoon Tiger. Let's be serious fellaz, Kishimoto is an expert at setting up fights between an antagonist and a hand-tailored style that can defeat it. Sasori is the classic example. In Kisame vs. Gain pt.3, the one jutsu that would consume and actually get strengthen with any chakra-based attack, a jutsu of that caliber against something as specific as Afternoon Tiger? Without any previous knowledge from Gai? Seriously? Kudos to Kishi for setting up their battle since part one, and showing Gai beat Kisame 3 different times, but still it's kind of Christmas to have that type of Jutsu against someone like Kisame. On the other hand, no one can argue that Killer Bee is probably the strongest character alive after Tobi, Sasuke and Naruto, and yet Kisame beat him, but again with a few circumstances helping him. 

That is all to say that the reason I like this method of doing things is that we get to discuss characters and the story, not just throw out a feat or a statement by a character, and call it a day.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 8, 2012)

For judging characters, feats and jutsus are actully the lowest priority on my list. I usually judge them according to this:

- story placement
- hype
- feats
- DB entry/stats


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 8, 2012)

Konoha Library is also about feats as people discuss about them here as well. Such as SM Naruto speed, Minato's speed, Itachi hand seal, Madara's metoer etc. 

Battledome is specially made for vs thread. 

Also we need to set this up as soon as possible. 

I think in KL this thread should not be stickied. Sticky thread does not get as much attention/view as threads which are unstickied.


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 8, 2012)

So I suppose the consensus is that feats should be counted, but only those that are in the manga. We allow arguments such as "_Kakashi has shown to have greatly improved upon his stamina as evidenced in the war therefore ..._" or something. However, no arguments based on hypothetical VS battles such as: "_Kakashi is two tiers above Guy because Kamui would be too much for him in this or that way._"

So under portrayal we judge (stealing *hitokugutsu*'s list):

story placement,
hype,
feats [did character X match character Y who has greater hype in an (actual in-manga) battle? If yes, is it due to match-up or did X just progress to Y's tier?],
DB stats.

Did I get this right? Agree or disagree?



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, *Strategoob* would you mind overseeing the project? I mean if we go by your suggestion which you understand best, and you say doesn't need much overseeing anyway, then are you perhaps willing to do it so that we can move on? I'd vote for you.


----------



## Vice (Sep 8, 2012)

Not to beat a dead horse or to throw this in anyone's faces but my proposed idea for this was quick, easy, accurate and fair. All I asked was for people to list in the order that they believed to be strongest to weakest, I would have taken care of the rest.


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 8, 2012)

Concerning feats, since there's no definition for it, it's hard to know if we're all talking about the same thing. What _I_ was talking about was taking a character's actions, putting them in a vacuum, and then deciding from an arbitrary standpoint how strong they must be. 

Finding out how strong Kinkaku is should consist of looking for _*comparisons *made in the manga_ (Raikage felt he needed to enter the battle/the 5th treasure needed to be used against him/how he thrashed most of a division and Darui looked helpless against him/etc) *NOT* going "Well, he's got a lot of raw power. He's experienced. He's good at both close and mid range. Tons of stamina. Uh oh, he doesn't have X though, might have to move him down a tier."

For instance, Terumii Mei doesn't have too many feats, however I don't think that should count against her. 

What you guys have posted seems fair. It depends on your definition and interpretation. I don't mean to say that actions taken < statements, but actions taken without a context have no meaning. You can't look at Kakashi's Kamui in a vacuum and decide how strong he _should be_ with it; you must look at the total context.

Another way of looking at it is we are looking to define how strong characters _are_, not how strong they "should be."



			
				Strategoob said:
			
		

> This is reasonable. However, for the initial stages, I think it would be smarter to use my and Ptolemy's broadest break down before making the categorical separations more complex.



Absolutely.



			
				Sniffers said:
			
		

> Also we should NOT increase the number of tiers. It's fairly hard to rank the characters as it is and increasing the number is just stretching it further. I don't even see how we can get such detail from portrayal anyway. Someone can be stronger, but that doesn't always mean a new tier is required to accommodate that difference.



I don't see it as increasing the number of tiers (although that's basically what it is), but defining the tiers further. It allows for a compromise.

Like the example I posted; putting MS Sasuke and Raikage on the same tier leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I don't like that. I can compromise, however, with them being on the same tier but a division being there to show the clear difference.

So, this change would basically allow for a number of arguments to be settled. Besides, if the tiers are too broad then they lose their meaning and we start putting characters with noticeably varying levels of strength all on the same tier, which like I said, *would be creating more problems than settling them.*


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 8, 2012)

Ok well Shinte I vote that you and Strategoob be the two mods for this thread since Turrin quit. Then we can get this started.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 8, 2012)

Sure, I don't mind. Anyway, I think virtually everybody participating wants to try the represenative system, so let's get to it. If *anybody* has *any* problems with the Ptolemy's prototype, then speak up and we can remove them and save them for discussion. We really only *need* one poster-boy for each tier. However, keep in mind that each tier will initially be very broad as *A+*, *A*, and *A-* will initially all be lumped as *A*, and the same goes for other tiers, so even if one individual seems like he should be in a higher tier than another, or even two tiers up, it can still be reasonable because one may be a *A+* and the other is an *A-*. Lastly, keep in mind that we're using portrayal and hype before feats, the databook, or hypotheticals.

*S+*
Edo Madara
Naruto
Obito

*S*
Nagato
Kirābī
Itachi

*A*
Orochimaru
Tsunade
A

*B*
Part I Kakashi
Part I Kabuto
Jūgo

*C*
Kidōmaru
Tayuya
Jirōbō

*D*
Mizuki
Iruka
Ebisu

*E*
Part I Sakura
Rin
Kin​


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Sep 8, 2012)

It really doesn't take a lot of work to run KC tournaments, so I can help as a mod in this thread as well if needed.


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 8, 2012)

Those are a little broad for me. I think rating a character should be really easy, and I tried that out with a few characters and it felt kind of weird (Shizune, Kakuzu).

Here's an alternative. We can see what people like/what works best:

*S Tier*
*S+*
Rinnegan Obito
*S*
Nagato
*S-*
Killer Bee

*A tier*
*A+*
Raikage
Gaara
*A*
Kisame
*A-*
Darui
Base Sasuke

*B tier*
*B+*
Chouji
Yamato
Zabuza
*B*
Kurenai
Shizune
Genma
*B-*
Hayate
Ebisu

*C tier*
*C+*
Sound 4
*C*
Chuunin exam Gaara
Chuunin exam Sasuke
*C-*
Chuunin exam Temari
Dosu

*D tier*
*D+*
Chuunin exam Hinata
Zaku
*D*
Part 1 Sakura
Part 1 Ino
*D-*
Just graduated into genin Sakura/Naruto


No need for an E tier.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 8, 2012)

So who's up first I vote Nidamie Mizukage, Kisame, or Jiraiya would be a good starting point.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 8, 2012)

Shintebukuro, the idea was to purposefully make it broad, and then discuss individuals individually when placing them in + or - categories. But yeah, we can wait and see which people prefer.​


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 8, 2012)

Lets make it broad first then specify


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 8, 2012)

Why are we using Hype before feats when they both are equally important. Feats more so since thats what determines a characters power level in the first place.


----------



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Sep 8, 2012)

I'm starting to think this will not work no matter what is done. Too many fanboys, too many battledomers, too many changes. 



shintebukuro said:


> Those are a little broad for me. I think rating a character should be really easy, and I tried that out with a few characters and it felt kind of weird (Shizune, Kakuzu).
> 
> Here's an alternative. We can see what people like/what works best:
> 
> ...



I would go for this.


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 8, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Why are we using Hype before feats when they both are equally important. Feats more so since thats what determines a characters power level in the first place.



The only thing that determines a character's power level is the author making a direct comparison in the series.

Whether it happens to be "feats" or "hype" don't make a difference; in fact, those are pointless distinctions. It all falls under the umbrella of "The Author's intent."

Define "feats" and "hype" how you interpret them, because there might just be a disconnect in communication here. No one here is saying that actions performed in a fight don't count.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Sep 8, 2012)

I'll try to keep up with this thread and update the title/OP. Poke me if you need me for something.

I still suggest against different incarnations having spots on the list, but I do see their worth as "tier representatives." Just wouldn't keep them.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 8, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> I'll try to keep up with this thread and update the title/OP. Poke me if you need me for something.
> 
> I still suggest against different incarnations having spots on the list, but I do see their worth as "tier representatives." Just wouldn't keep them.



Hey Dragonus, can you give whoever wants to take over as the new moderator the OP post?


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Sep 9, 2012)

Yeah, I can do some finagling.


----------



## Shattering (Sep 9, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...







shintebukuro said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Both are good for me, the more categories the better is done.
Apart from this (I don't know if you have already one it) we should make a list without tiers of the characters that we should rank in the tier list, and we should decide if we place a character in his current "condition" or every single one of them, for example:

We could place Itachi as a single character or we could speak of:

Akatsuki 13 years old Itachi (the one who fought Orochimaru)
Akatsuki Itachi (sick)
Edo Itachi

We have seen all of them in action, and I wouldn't place in the same position "Akatsuki Itachi" and "Edo Itachi" for example.

Or Naruto:

Part 1 Naruto
Part 1 Naruto post Rasengan
Part 1 VOTE Naruto
Part 2 Naruto
Part 2 Naruto post FRS
Part 2 SM Naruto
Part 2 KCM Naruto
Part 2 BM Naruto

I think my point is clear,* delimit* what we have to rank it's pretty important.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 9, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> Yeah, I can do some finagling.


Thanks Dragonus, just want the project to keep moving as smoothly as possible.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 9, 2012)

and then just like that the Konoha Library Tier List was forgotten, and all who had once posted in the thread had lost interest/hope. I can literally hear crickets in this thread


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 9, 2012)

Frankly, we need to start a new topic, and I think it might also help it if it were not stickied. 

But first, we need to vote on a tier list scheme. Once we have everything down how we want to do it, we'll make the new thread, and it will flourish.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 9, 2012)

Most people already voted for Strats original system it was like 13 or 14 to Turrin. Now he is gone so it is basically unanimous. Either you or strat should start the new topic. Just make it Offical


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Sep 10, 2012)

Can we get the ball rolling on this? I want something to do.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 10, 2012)

Yeah, someone should start a new thread. It will help if this thread wasn't stickied as well.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Sep 10, 2012)

Why would it not being stickied help? It being stickied means I find it easy and quick.


----------



## Golden Circle (Sep 10, 2012)

^ No, they mean unsticky this thread and then create a new thread to be stickied.

I also suggest locking this thread and directing them to the new thread.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Sep 10, 2012)

Is there a new thread?


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Sep 10, 2012)

Let's, you know, figure what you're going to be doing before diving headlong into a new thread. Rushing this will only make it sloppy.


----------



## Ptolemy (Sep 10, 2012)

Okay, it's time to get the ball rolling again. I've read through the discussion and I think everyone is happy with using the 'poster boy system' and basing character placement primarily on portrayal and hype, but using feats to differentiate when necessary. People also clearly want some degree of reasoning to take place if this is going to be a debate style thread.

A few questions still remain though, so I'm going to start a voting process, and all people have to do is copy and past adding in their vote. After a couple of days we will have a clear view of what's going to happen, and Turrin/Strategoob/WPK/Dragonus Nesha can start a new thread purely for character discussion rather than discussing the tier list itself.

*1.Should this be a discussion/debate thread or a averaging thread involving a poll?*

Discussion: Ptolemy [1]
Averaging: [0]

*2. Tier List Structure*
Entirely Broad Tiers: [0]
Broad Tiers -> Add +/- Later: Ptolemy [1]
Detailed tiers (+/- to Begin with): [0]

*3. Are you happy with either the Ptolemy + Strategoob tier list or the shintebukuro tier list for one of the above options?*
Yes: Ptolemy [1]
No: [0]

*4. How many character Iterations should there be? e.g Part One Naruto, Wind Arc Naruto, Sage Naruto, KCM Naruto, ect.*
One Only: [0]
Up to three: [0]
Decided on a character to character basis: Ptolemy [1]

*5. How many characters should be added at a time?*
1: [0]
2: [0]
3: Ptolemy [1]
Other - Please Specify: [0]

*6. Should discussion/debate take place before voting, or should people be free to vote whenever characters are being discussed?*
After: Ptolemy [1]
Whenever: [0]


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 10, 2012)

*1.Should this be a discussion/debate thread or a averaging thread involving a poll?*

Discussion: Ptolemy, Strat [2]
Averaging: [0]

*2. Tier List Structure*
Entirely Broad Tiers: [0]
Broad Tiers -> Add +/- Later: Ptolemy, Strat [2]
Detailed tiers (+/- to Begin with): [0]

*3. Are you happy with either the Ptolemy + Strategoob tier list or the shintebukuro tier list for one of the above options?*
Yes: Ptolemy, Strat [2]
No: [0]

*4. How many character Iterations should there be? e.g Part One Naruto, Wind Arc Naruto, Sage Naruto, KCM Naruto, ect.*
One Only: [0]
Up to three: [0]
Decided on a character to character basis: Ptolemy, Strat [2]

*5. How many characters should be added at a time?*
1: [0]
2: [0]
3: Ptolemy, Strat [2]
Other - Please Specify: [0]

*6. Should discussion/debate take place before voting, or should people be free to vote whenever characters are being discussed?*
After: Ptolemy, Strat [2]
Whenever: [0]


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 10, 2012)

*1.Should this be a discussion/debate thread or a averaging thread involving a poll?*

Discussion: Ptolemy, Strat [2]
Averaging: Sniffers [1]

*2. Tier List Structure*
Entirely Broad Tiers: [0]
Broad Tiers -> Add +/- Later: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers [3]
Detailed tiers (+/- to Begin with): [0]

*3. Are you happy with either the Ptolemy + Strategoob tier list or the shintebukuro tier list for one of the above options?*
Yes: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers [3]
No: [0]

*4. How many character Iterations should there be? e.g Part One Naruto, Wind Arc Naruto, Sage Naruto, KCM Naruto, ect.*
One Only: [0]
Up to three: [0]
Decided on a character to character basis: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers [3]

*5. How many characters should be added at a time?*
1: [0]
2: [0]
3: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers [3]
Other - Please Specify: [0]

*6. Should discussion/debate take place before voting, or should people be free to vote whenever characters are being discussed?*
After: Ptolemy, Strat [2]
Whenever: Sniffers [1]


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 10, 2012)

*1.Should this be a discussion/debate thread or a averaging thread involving a poll?*

Discussion: Ptolemy, Strat, shintebukuro [3]
Averaging: Sniffers [1]

*2. Tier List Structure*
Entirely Broad Tiers: [0]
Broad Tiers -> Add +/- Later: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers [3]
Detailed tiers (+/- to Begin with): shintebukuro [1]

*3. Are you happy with either the Ptolemy + Strategoob tier list or the shintebukuro tier list for one of the above options?*
Yes: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro [4]
No: [0]

*4. How many character Iterations should there be? e.g Part One Naruto, Wind Arc Naruto, Sage Naruto, KCM Naruto, ect.*
One Only: [0]
Up to three: [0]
Decided on a character to character basis: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro [4]

*5. How many characters should be added at a time?*
1: [0]
2: shintebukuro [1]
3: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers [3]
Other - Please Specify: [0]

*6. Should discussion/debate take place before voting, or should people be free to vote whenever characters are being discussed?*
After: Ptolemy, Strat [2]
Whenever: Sniffers, shintebukuro [2]


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2012)

*1.Should this be a discussion/debate thread or a averaging thread involving a poll?*

Discussion: Ptolemy, Strat, shintebukuro,Dr. White [4]
Averaging: Sniffers [1]

*2. Tier List Structure*
Entirely Broad Tiers: [0]
Broad Tiers -> Add +/- Later: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers,Dr. White [4]
Detailed tiers (+/- to Begin with): shintebukuro [1]

*3. Are you happy with either the Ptolemy + Strategoob tier list or the shintebukuro tier list for one of the above options?*
Yes: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr. white [5]
No: [0]

*4. How many character Iterations should there be? e.g Part One Naruto, Wind Arc Naruto, Sage Naruto, KCM Naruto, ect.*
One Only: [0]
Up to three: [0]
Decided on a character to character basis: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr.white[5]

*5. How many characters should be added at a time?*
1: [0]
2: shintebukuro, dr. white [2]
3: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers [3]
Other - Please Specify: [0]

*6. Should discussion/debate take place before voting, or should people be free to vote whenever characters are being discussed?*
After: Ptolemy, Strat [2]
Whenever: Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr.white [3]


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Sep 10, 2012)

*1.Should this be a discussion/debate thread or a averaging thread involving a poll?*

Discussion: Ptolemy, Strat, shintebukuro,Dr. White, PZ [5]
Averaging: Sniffers [1]

*2. Tier List Structure*
Entirely Broad Tiers: [0]
Broad Tiers -> Add +/- Later: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers,Dr. White, PZ [5]
Detailed tiers (+/- to Begin with): shintebukuro [1]

*3. Are you happy with either the Ptolemy + Strategoob tier list or the shintebukuro tier list for one of the above options?*
Yes: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr. white, PZ [6]
No: [0]

*4. How many character Iterations should there be? e.g Part One Naruto, Wind Arc Naruto, Sage Naruto, KCM Naruto, ect.*
One Only: [0]
Up to three: [0]
Decided on a character to character basis: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr.white, PZ[6]

*5. How many characters should be added at a time?*
1: [0]
2: shintebukuro, dr. white [2]
3: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, PZ [4]
Other - Please Specify: [0]

*6. Should discussion/debate take place before voting, or should people be free to vote whenever characters are being discussed?*
After: Ptolemy, Strat [2]
Whenever: Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr.white, PZ [4]


----------



## Shattering (Sep 10, 2012)

*1.Should this be a discussion/debate thread or a averaging thread involving a poll?*

Discussion: Ptolemy, Strat, shintebukuro,Dr. White, PZ, Shattering [6]
Averaging: Sniffers [1]

*2. Tier List Structure*
Entirely Broad Tiers: [0]
Broad Tiers -> Add +/- Later: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers,Dr. White, PZ, Shattering [6]
Detailed tiers (+/- to Begin with): shintebukuro [1]

*3. Are you happy with either the Ptolemy + Strategoob tier list or the shintebukuro tier list for one of the above options?*
Yes: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr. white, PZ, Shattering [7]
No: [0]

*4. How many character Iterations should there be? e.g Part One Naruto, Wind Arc Naruto, Sage Naruto, KCM Naruto, ect.*
One Only: [0]
Up to three: [0]
Decided on a character to character basis: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr.white, PZ, Shattering[7]

*5. How many characters should be added at a time?*
1: [0]
2: shintebukuro, dr. white, Shattering [3]
3: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, PZ [4]
Other - Please Specify: [0]

*6. Should discussion/debate take place before voting, or should people be free to vote whenever characters are being discussed?*
After: Ptolemy, Strat [2]
Whenever: Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr.white, PZ, Shattering [5]


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 10, 2012)

I'm changing one of my votes. I think I would rather only discuss two characters at a time.

*1.Should this be a discussion/debate thread or a averaging thread involving a poll?*

Discussion: Ptolemy, Strat, shintebukuro,Dr. White, PZ, Shattering [6]
Averaging: Sniffers [1]

*2. Tier List Structure*
Entirely Broad Tiers: [0]
Broad Tiers -> Add +/- Later: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers,Dr. White, PZ, Shattering [6]
Detailed tiers (+/- to Begin with): shintebukuro [1]

*3. Are you happy with either the Ptolemy + Strategoob tier list or the shintebukuro tier list for one of the above options?*
Yes: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr. white, PZ, Shattering [7]
No: [0]

*4. How many character Iterations should there be? e.g Part One Naruto, Wind Arc Naruto, Sage Naruto, KCM Naruto, ect.*
One Only: [0]
Up to three: [0]
Decided on a character to character basis: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr.white, PZ, Shattering[7]

*5. How many characters should be added at a time?*
1: [0]
2: shintebukuro, dr. white, Shattering, Strat [4]
3: Ptolemy, Sniffers, PZ [3]
Other - Please Specify: [0]

*6. Should discussion/debate take place before voting, or should people be free to vote whenever characters are being discussed?*
After: Ptolemy, Strat [2]
Whenever: Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr.white, PZ, Shattering [5]


----------



## αce (Sep 10, 2012)

This thread is too confusing for its own good.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2012)

I say we get on with it.  Strats original idea was in the lead almost unanimously.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Sep 10, 2012)

For the love of god can we just start this thing, its gonna take us years to complete at this rate.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 10, 2012)

The poll has been up for 12 hours, guys lol. Let's just wait a little longer, so that once the rubric is in place, future participants will know that they had a respectable window to affect the new process.​


----------



## Immortal (Sep 11, 2012)

Lmao. Twelve hours.


----------



## GaaraFromTheHood (Sep 11, 2012)

*1.Should this be a discussion/debate thread or a averaging thread involving a poll?*

Discussion: Ptolemy, Strat, shintebukuro,Dr. White, PZ, Shattering, GaarafromtheHood [7]
Averaging: Sniffers [1]

*2. Tier List Structure*
Entirely Broad Tiers: [0]
Broad Tiers -> Add +/- Later: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers,Dr. White, PZ, Shattering, GaarafromtheHood [7]
Detailed tiers (+/- to Begin with): shintebukuro [1]

*3. Are you happy with either the Ptolemy + Strategoob tier list or the shintebukuro tier list for one of the above options?*
Yes: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr. white, PZ, Shattering, GaarafromtheHood [8]
No: [0]

*4. How many character Iterations should there be? e.g Part One Naruto, Wind Arc Naruto, Sage Naruto, KCM Naruto, ect.*
One Only: GaaraFromtheHood [1]
Up to three: [0]
Decided on a character to character basis: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr.white, PZ, Shattering[7]

*5. How many characters should be added at a time?*
1: [0]
2: shintebukuro, dr. white, Shattering, Strat, GaaraFromTheHood [5]
3: Ptolemy, Sniffers, PZ [3]
Other - Please Specify: [0]

*6. Should discussion/debate take place before voting, or should people be free to vote whenever characters are being discussed?*
After: Ptolemy, Strat, GaaraFromTheHood [3]
Whenever: Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr.white, PZ, Shattering [5]


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 11, 2012)

*1.Should this be a discussion/debate thread or a averaging thread involving a poll?*

Discussion: Ptolemy, Strat, shintebukuro,Dr. White, PZ, Shattering, GaarafromtheHood [7]
Averaging: Sniffers [1]

*2. Tier List Structure*
Entirely Broad Tiers: [0]
Broad Tiers -> Add +/- Later: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers,Dr. White, PZ, Shattering, GaarafromtheHood [7]
Detailed tiers (+/- to Begin with): shintebukuro [1]

*3. Are you happy with either the Ptolemy + Strategoob tier list or the shintebukuro tier list for one of the above options?*
Yes: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr. white, PZ, Shattering, GaarafromtheHood [8]
No: [0]

*4. How many character Iterations should there be? e.g Part One Naruto, Wind Arc Naruto, Sage Naruto, KCM Naruto, ect.*
One Only: GaaraFromtheHood [1]
Up to three: [0]
Decided on a character to character basis: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr.white, PZ, Shattering[7]

*5. How many characters should be added at a time?*
1: [0]
2: shintebukuro, dr. white, Shattering, Strat, GaaraFromTheHood [5]
3: Ptolemy, Sniffers, PZ, KH [4]
Other - Please Specify: [0]

*6. Should discussion/debate take place before voting, or should people be free to vote whenever characters are being discussed?*
After: Ptolemy, Strat, GaaraFromTheHood [3]
Whenever: Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr.white, PZ, Shattering, KH [6][/QUOTE]


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 12, 2012)

*1.Should this be a discussion/debate thread or a averaging thread involving a poll?*

Discussion: Ptolemy, Strat, shintebukuro,Dr. White, PZ, Shattering, GaarafromtheHood, hitokugutsu [8]
Averaging: Sniffers [1]

*2. Tier List Structure*
Entirely Broad Tiers: [0]
Broad Tiers -> Add +/- Later: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers,Dr. White, PZ, Shattering, GaarafromtheHood, hitokugutsu [8]
Detailed tiers (+/- to Begin with): shintebukuro [1]

*3. Are you happy with either the Ptolemy + Strategoob tier list or the shintebukuro tier list for one of the above options?*
Yes: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr. white, PZ, Shattering, GaarafromtheHood, hitokugutsu [9]
No: [0]

*4. How many character Iterations should there be? e.g Part One Naruto, Wind Arc Naruto, Sage Naruto, KCM Naruto, ect.*
One Only: GaaraFromtheHood [1]
Up to three: [0]
Decided on a character to character basis: Ptolemy, Strat, Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr.white, PZ, Shattering, hitokugutsu [8]

*5. How many characters should be added at a time?*
1: [0]
2: shintebukuro, dr. white, Shattering, Strat, GaaraFromTheHood, hitokugutsu [6]
3: Ptolemy, Sniffers, PZ, KH [4]
Other - Please Specify: [0]

*6. Should discussion/debate take place before voting, or should people be free to vote whenever characters are being discussed?*
After: Ptolemy, Strat, GaaraFromTheHood [3]
Whenever: Sniffers, shintebukuro, dr.white, PZ, Shattering, KH, hitokugutsu [7]




The only fear I have is that discussing characters wont change the opinion of the voters. Pretty sure a lot of people have a "set tier list" which they wanna share trough this thread. 

So imo there should be the option to change your vote for a character after you've voted. Of course this should not be used spammingly, but PM trough a mod or something
Otherwise whats the point in debating a character if someone else isn't gonna change their vote


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 12, 2012)

If you can convince someone to change their votes then they can edit their original post/vote and change it.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 12, 2012)

Alright, so we'll close voting in 16 hours and fifty-five minutes, three days after Ptolemy initiated it, and respect the outcome of the polls. I can create the new thread later that day, or some other participant may make it earlier. Does anyone object to any of this?​


----------



## Sniffers (Sep 12, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Alright, so we'll close voting in 16 hours and fifty-five minutes, three days after Ptolemy initiated it, and respect the outcome of the polls. I can create the new thread later that day, or some other participant may make it earlier. Does anyone object to any of this?​


That is fine.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 12, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> If you can convince someone to change their votes then they can edit their original post/vote and change it.



Oh, let me address this. If it's alright with everybody, I would like to revise the voting system used earlier in this thread to the one currently being used. As you can see , I edited my vote quite easily by simply copying and pasting the list, and then changing the original position of my own username. 

With such a simple method, editing votes will be easy and easy to keep track of. The only danger is that sometimes members forget to use the newest voting list, but with enough participants, that can easily be spotted, particularly in close polls where some members may go back and check just to be sure. So for example:​


> *Rank Character*
> 
> *S*
> 
> ...



And then if User 4 would like to edit his or her vote, then the current version of the votes can be copied, last completed by User 10, and then he or she may change the position of his or her name.​


> *Rank Character*
> 
> *S*
> 
> ...


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 12, 2012)

Sounds good to me. 

Something that was brought up that I like is the new thread being unstickied. I think it'll get more attention that way.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 12, 2012)

We'll try it without the sticky at first, and we can always request it to be stickied if that doesn't work out. ​


----------

