# Jiraiya Frog Kata



## Duhul10 (Mar 8, 2015)

There are still people that do not believe Jiraiya has Frog katas, only because he hasn't shown them in his ONLY (damn you Kishi) fight. 

    Fukasaku clearly stated that he was only turning into a frog A LITTLE BIT and that he really thought that is PROGRESS.

    There is nothing that prooves us he didn't have the SPECIFIC ABILLITIES OF A SAGE.
The 4th databook implies that he is a user of frog katas. Minato specified that Jiraiya was more proeficient with sage mode than him ( not doing any comparison like who would win ) and from what i know he was having sensing.

    Asura path took him off guard, but he was still able to hold on and not to be killed and after his face expressions , Jiraiya actually felt him but it was too late.
    His speed, reflexes, strength, durability were some of the best in the NV and he was even able to fight in an animal position which gave him more manouverability and was able to use his great speed with efficiency. 
    I would love if these men would shut up and listen to Kishi because he has done the manga, not them


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## Duhul10 (Mar 8, 2015)

Sorry i did not pay attention I put the thread in the battledome


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2015)

yes he can use it .
its a c rank sage mode technique

doesnt make a difference. because even with that he admitted he couldnt beat 3 paths of pain in a direct fight.

it also doesnt mean it was at naruto level. because their strength arent remotely equal


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## Duhul10 (Mar 9, 2015)

I agree with you 

But some people seem that they do not understand

I will not say the Gap is that big between sm jiraiya and prin arc sm naruto in strength ( in speed in my opinion sm jiraiya is superior to pain arc sm naruto)
Because we have seen impressive things from Both of them but ( i do not know if it is manga or not ) kid jiraiya in base picked up a huge builder and threw to heaven a snake several Times His size


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## Trojan (Mar 9, 2015)

It's stated in the Databook that he has it.


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2015)

@duhul
That was a filler feat from jiraiya 
Also Sm naruto is much stronger 
No path could physicallu compete with him 
Human path blocked jiraiya punch without looking 

Deva tried to do the same to naruto kick and was sent flying 

The only time naruto got a straight shot on a path it died 

Jiraiya kicked 2 paths 
Human and animal neither died


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## Trojan (Mar 9, 2015)

Naruto kicked Deva as well, and he did not die. 
I think it's reasonable to think Preta is weak against Taijutsu.


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## Duhul10 (Mar 9, 2015)

Neither they Could with jiraiya, one vs one when he Caught them they Could not even move a Muscle in front of Him when he kickedt. Human path blocked it because jiraiya was not even expecting to catch the fist and actually we know that they are quite strong and very durable ( konohamaru was plot for showing His guts) preta did not die in front of naruto ghost punch


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2015)

@hussain deva blocked. wasnt a straight hit to the face .

@duhul10 he however got knocked down. so much so, he couldnt ST the FRS coming his way. 

preta got killed from naruto ghost punch do read the manga 

1 hit KO preta got 

I dont get the debate at all. here Sm naruto is much stronger than SM jiriaya. Feats and common sense dictates this

I mean jiriaya kicked animal path straight it in the chest and it didnt die. the only path naruto ever got a clean shot on died


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## Duhul10 (Mar 9, 2015)

yeah you are right with the preta path


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## Duhul10 (Mar 10, 2015)

So  Shall this debate be ended once and for all ?


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2015)

The simply truth is that Kishi retecon'd Sennin Modo multiples times since it's introduction, in-order to give Naruto the necessary abilities to deal with various enemies. 

Originally Sennin Modo didn't give Sensing at all. This can be seen by Shima using her tongue to find the invisible chameleon summon, pa using his eyes to track Pain baths coming from behind Naruto, and them being unaware of the 3 other paths. However when it came time for the Pain-Arc, Kishi needed to come up with some way for Naruto to deal with Shared vision as Naruto didn't have the plethora of techniques or fusion with the elder toads, so he retcon'd SM to give the users Frog Katas and SM sensing. That's also why smoke screens suddenly work against Pain even though they proved completely ineffectual during the Jiraiya battle.

Than later when Naruto needed the reaction time and shit to deal with fast enemies than Pain Paths, like Sandaime-Raikage, he retecon'd SM sensing again to make it not just a rudimentary locational detection, but full on danger sensing that constantly alerted the users to any incoming threat, in a Sharingan prediction type manner, that allows someone to fight basically blind.  Kishi also quickly retecon'd the amount of time it takes to enter SM as he couldn't find opportunities for Naruto to create clones ahead of time.

Than DB4 comes around and Kishi is tasked with making sense of these retecon's and the conclusion is that it's all a C-Rank skill so it was easy for Naruto to master. But than Jiraiya should also have the skill, considering he had Senjutsu for years. So the mention of Jiriaya being a user is simply acknowledging that.

However the result is Jiraiya with those abilities is logically much more powerful than he was originally intended to be. Jiraiya post retecon would perform a-lot better against Pain for instance, than he actually did, maybe even pull a win given the circumstances. He most likely wouldn't need Frog-Song to deal with the three paths, as he'd just down HG w/ Frog Katas. He wouldn't get ambushed as Danger sensing would tip him off. But I don't think kishi really cared about that type of continuity with the story in the final arcs.


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## Icegaze (Mar 11, 2015)

@turrin even with the apparent rectonned buff which is simply just ghost punches and sensing jiraiya would have lost the same way
jiraiya gets virtually not boost from sage mode being retconned like u claim


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @turrin even with the apparent rectonned buff which is simply just ghost punches and sensing jiraiya would have lost the same way
> jiraiya gets virtually not boost from sage mode being retconned like u claim


That's an absolutely inane stand-point to hold, when we saw through Naruto that these abilities were pivotal in winning various battles throughout the final arcs. Fuck there would be no reason for Kishi to retcon them into existence in the first place if they weren't pivotal abilities. 

Frog Katas, Sensing, and Smokescreens becoming effective against Dojutsu, were all pivotal abilities in Naruto dealing with Pain/Nagato. HG, Animal, and Naraka, two of which are key pain paths went down due to these abilities. Additionally while not quite as pivotal they played a key role in the fight against Deva Path and sensing was also pivotal in Naruto finding Nagato and being able to TNJ him into submission. 

Against Sandaime-Raikage Danger-Sensing was the pivotal ability that allowed Naruto to win and it was pivotal in Kabuto vs Uchiha-Bros as it allowed him to deal with most of their Dojutsu techniques. 

That is not how you portray abilities that make no difference in strength or performance.


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## Icegaze (Mar 11, 2015)

You sadden me 
The only thing pivotal about naruto win was he had knowledge 
Sorry give jiraiya frog katas and sensing 
Same match how would that help him ???

Not like frog katas put preta down for good. He got revived . Not like naruto didn't flat out loose to pain of not for Kyuubi transfornatjon he was pawned even with knowledge 

It won't slightly have helped jiraiya . Like at all . Ask around


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 11, 2015)

Well, Ma and Pa are perfect sages which could explain where their Sage sensing came from, so it's certainly possible that SM Jiraiya did have Sage Sensing up until that point considering Ma did sense Pain's Chameleon's location and as stated before, she is a Perfect Sage.

 I highly doubt Frog Katas would've helped Jiraiya. Jiraiya realized he was totally outclassed in Taijutsu and to make matters worse, Human Path took a direct blow the face and acted like nothing happened. Even if Jiraiya did surprise one of the Path's with the Frog Kata, considering Deva Path managed to parry SM Naruto's kick, I'd say it's safe to say an inferior SM user would not have been able to land a clean blow on Jiraiya.

 But I do agree, Sage Sensing is a really nice tool to have, especially when it can sense chakra build up and enhance your reactions as shown against the 3rd Raikage, but considering Jiraiya had 2 Perfect Sages and still faltered, I doubt it would've helped much IMO.


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2015)

^ I think your looking at it from the perspective that Kishi was aware that he was going to have SM have these abilities back during the Pain vs Jiriaya battle, and I truly do not think that is the case. Ma didn't sense the Chameleon she found it through scent detection via her tongue, so that actually indicates that Kishi didn't have sensing in mind as a SM ability at the time. 

Frog Katas would have matter as he would have been able to take down HG realm despite duel vision w/ it, which would have allowed him to use Ninjutsu to deal with Animal and Human realms fairly comfortably. If SM had the danger sensing it exhibited in later arcs at that time Jiraiya, Shima, and Fusaku would have sensed the appearance of the other paths and dealt with the other paths more efficiently. Whether he would have won or not i'm not sure, but he would have done much better.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 12, 2015)

Naruto wasn't using Katas aganst Preta initially, so it's a matter of Jiraiya not choosing to use them. He only failed to hit one of them 1 out 3 times, he struck two of them directly with his Taijutsu, one path caught his punch when he thought he had a blindside angle. I don't see where Frog Katas could have aided, the only time he failed to strike his target is when he thought he had a guaranteed shot at his enemy from behind, a scenario where SM Naruto also wouldn't have used a Kata. 

As far as the sensing is concerned, he didn't really get a chance to try it- Ma simply spit out her tongue before Jiraiya could attempt sensing Animal Path as he was still explaining the situation to them.

The only other time sensing would've helped him is when Asura Path blindsided him, but by that point he thought he'd already won the battle. It's not that difficult to understand that in order to sense someone you have to be focusing. SM Naruto also did not sense Preta Paths' existence when he leaped in front of FRS to save Deva Path, why? Because he was not focusing and thought he'd already defeated Preta Path- who was revived while he was battling Deva Path- something Naruto did not notice at all. 

Overall, it's a matter of Jiraiya not choosing to use his sensing or Frog Katas in the battle- because he did not need them. He defeated the only 3 opponents he thought were there without receiving any injuries, then he got his arm blown off when he, Ma & Pa all thought that the battle had concluded, the same way that Naruto got his FRS absorbed when he thought he'd already defeated Preta Path and did not pay attention to the other path reviving him.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

Turrin said:


> ^ I think your looking at it from the perspective that Kishi was aware that he was going to have SM have these abilities back during the Pain vs Jiriaya battle, and I truly do not think that is the case. Ma didn't sense the Chameleon she found it through scent detection via her tongue, so that actually indicates that Kishi didn't have sensing in mind as a SM ability at the time.
> 
> Frog Katas would have matter as he would have been able to take down HG realm despite duel vision w/ it, which would have allowed him to use Ninjutsu to deal with Animal and Human realms fairly comfortably. If SM had the danger sensing it exhibited in later arcs at that time Jiraiya, Shima, and Fusaku would have sensed the appearance of the other paths and dealt with the other paths more efficiently. Whether he would have won or not i'm not sure, but he would have done much better.



blind Sm madara had sage sensing
BM naruto still surprised him from behind 

jiraiya took out the 3 paths. so if he had frog katas he would have done the same. the 6 would have come and would have killed him. the same way the 6 defeated SM naruto. these little perks wont do much against pain who is much more superior to jiriaya 

Ma used tongue sensing not just to sense but to attack the chameleon in 1 swift move. Vs sensing it and having jriaiya attack it. easier to just do it herself in 1 move. thats hardly an indication that Ma wasnt a sensor. 

i got an example. tobirama using his finger sensing. despite being a sensor good enough to detect madara chakra from miles away. yet in the same forest he used his fingers to pick up the chakra of 20 fodders. choosing to do something doesnt mean u cant do the other


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## Ghost (Mar 12, 2015)

Sage sensing and ghost punches were retconned for Jiraiya in the new databook. Reading his fight against Pain makes it obvious he did not have those perks.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 12, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Sage sensing and ghost punches were retconned for Jiraiya in the new databook. Reading his fight against Pain makes it obvious he did not have those perks.


Not at all, as I explained in my previous post.

1. Didn't need to use Katas
2. Didn't have a chance to use sensing 

=/=

Could not use them.


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## Ghost (Mar 12, 2015)

Please. Makes absolutely no sense to introduce the abilities through Naruto over a year later.


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## Trojan (Mar 12, 2015)

Turrin, I doubt that summon can be sensed that way as even KCM Naruto with superior sensing ability couldn't.


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Naruto wasn't using Katas aganst Preta initially, so it's a matter of Jiraiya not choosing to use them. He only failed to hit one of them 1 out 3 times, he struck two of them directly with his Taijutsu, one path caught his punch when he thought he had a blindside angle. I don't see where Frog Katas could have aided, the only time he failed to strike his target is when he thought he had a guaranteed shot at his enemy from behind, a scenario where SM Naruto also wouldn't have used a Kata.



From Jiraiya vs Pain, Ch 378, _Father: If *taijutsu* and ninjutsu *won't work*.._

Kawazu Kumite DB IV Entry: "When someone learns Senjutsu they gain command of a terrifying *Taijutsu.*."



Retecon is obvious



> As far as the sensing is concerned, he didn't really get a chance to try it- Ma simply spit out her tongue before Jiraiya could attempt sensing Animal Path as he was still explaining the situation to them.


So Shima arbitrarily decided to use her Tongue, instead of SM sensing 



> The only other time sensing would've helped him is when Asura Path blindsided him, but by that point he thought he'd already won the battle. It's not that difficult to understand that in order to sense someone you have to be focusing. SM Naruto also did not sense Preta Paths' existence when he leaped in front of FRS to save Deva Path, why? Because he was not focusing and thought he'd already defeated Preta Path- who was revived while he was battling Deva Path- something Naruto did not notice at all.



Naruto about SM Sensing Ch 555, _"Sennin mode’s frog sparring… in this way *my perception of danger will be broader and faster*!\\
That’s why I will dodge his trust by an air’s breath…\
and aim flawlessly to his arm!!"_

DB IV on SM Sensing, _*"by collecting natural energy they gain danger sensing powers. They can sense the enemies movement, match enemies rhythm/speed"*_




Danger sensing according to Naruto should have altered him to the danger in the first instance. And according to the DB danger sensing is automatic the moment one gathers the natural energy to enter SM, so it should have altered him in the second instance as well.

Retecon is again obvious.



Hussain said:


> Turrin, I doubt that summon can be sensed that way as even KCM Naruto with superior sensing ability couldn't.


Dude what, SM has superior sensing abilities to KCM.


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## sabre320 (Mar 12, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Turrin, I doubt that summon can be sensed that way as even KCM Naruto with superior sensing ability couldn't.



kcm naruto has emotion sensing and is quite inferior to sm threat perception hence him sensing the whole battlefield a mile away..its good for telling zetsus apart but as a source of sensing its lacking and do nagato was basically a robot at that point would he even have emotions?


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## sabre320 (Mar 12, 2015)

it was pretty much retconned neither ma and pa displayed the threat perception either kishi seemed to add this later


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 12, 2015)

Are you suggesting Jiraiya thought he could Frog Kata all three of them? Turrin, c'mon dude. 

Yes, she did, because the Tongue clearly has high-speed and grappling abilities. 
Animal Path "Too fast!"
Chameleon- Defeated. 

Shima takes the initiative because:
1. She's impatient
2. She was doing something before being summoned
3. She was tired of hearing Jiraiya spew bullshit about his half-ass barriers before she got summoned
4. Her tongue is unpredictable and fully capable of blitzing a summon, which it did 

Provide a panel of Naruto dodging a blindside attack while unfocused on sensing. He hasn't done it. Your scans mean nothing Turrin, no Sage in the verse would've known Asura was behind them unless they were focusing on sensing.

~Naruto did not sense Preta Path was revived the entire time he was battling Deva Path after Kata, and was completely dumbfounded when he leaped in front of FRS

Jubito was blindsided by Tobirama when Naruto & Sasuke were attacking because he wasn't focusing on him who he knew was behind him. Tobirama explicitly stated he got him because he wasn't focused. Tobirama, Hashirama & Mianto didn't even notice there was a war going on until they focused on sensing. Kurama explicitly told Naruto to "switch his chakra to sensing mode" and then he was able to sense the chakras of the Juubi, unable to prior to that. Juubi, being the largest gathering of chakra in the entire naruto verse. 

[Madara outside of the window of Hashirama & Tobirama, Tobirama didn't notice his presence because he wasn't molding chakra].

There is no such thing as "automatic" sensory abilities. It doesn't exist, at all. If you're unfocused and your guard is down, any sensor can be blindsided. This was clear the moment Jubito, who had a Rinnegan and was the Jinchuriki of the Juubi (Six Paths Senjutsu) with elite sensory abilities (blocked blindside Amaterasu) was taken aback by Tobirama behind him _several times_.


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## sabre320 (Mar 12, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Are you suggesting Jiraiya thought he could Frog Kata all three of them? Turrin, c'mon dude.
> 
> Yes, she did, because the Tongue clearly has high-speed and grappling abilities.
> Animal Path "Too fast!"
> ...



sage mode threat perception is always active its basically spider sense forgot about tobiramas ftg attack on sage madara?


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 12, 2015)

Sage Madara was on a battlefield with a Rinnegan, and no I do not agree it's always active as displayed in my various examples of Jubito who did not react to FTG (with Naruto's SM Rasengan) or Tobirama physically touching him from behind, who later outright admitted it was a result of Jubito faltering in focus. 

Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto (extreme sensory capabilities- to sense invisible Limbo Clones) was also blindsided by Kaguya alongside Sasuke without reacting. Only after experiencing it was he able to then react to the attack a second time, suggesting it wasn't a speed problem- it was a focusing issue.

Also Kaguya, who could not sense Sakura coming at her from above because she was over thinking her counter options. She also had THE fucking original Byakugan. Kaguya failing to realize an attack from above is a clear indication any sensor can be blindsided, period.


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2015)

@DaVizWiz

So your just going to ignore how things are stated to work, cool. I care to little to bother with this nonsense anymore.



sabre320 said:


> sage mode threat perception is always active its basically spider sense forgot about tobiramas ftg attack on sage madara?



Yup your interpretations is the correct one, SM senses were retecon'd multiple times. First it had no sensing, than it had locational sensing, and than it basically became spidey senses in the war.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

sm madara blitz by BM naruto anyone?? madara wasnt focused on naruto he got blitz 

davizwiz is right. its hardly a retcon turrin maybe you dont get the difference between perfecting a technique and having an imperfect version of a technique 

*sensing has never once been stated to be automatic. please show me where it says it is. *

if it were automatic it wont be a technique. i mean sensing technique is an actual technique. even ino is a sensor. but she must focus her chakra to do this. 

i dont get the confusion at all. please again show 1 panel saying a sensor can sense at anytime for the lolz.


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## Rocky (Mar 12, 2015)

Sage Sensing isn't standard sensing. Pleb sensing cannot be used in battle effectively, while Spider Sensing enhances one's close quarters potential drastically.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

then please explain why Sm madara still got caught from behind by Bm naruto giant avatar 

Sm gives u sensing, kishi didnt really decide to make it different from the others 

even a sage jiriaya, said sensors cant just defend shit they cant see. ma and pa didnt disagree 

so i dont get the retcon there. what was a pure retcon however was minato being able to use sage mode perfectly for just a second 

despite himself saying he never used it while alive.


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## Rocky (Mar 12, 2015)

I can't explain the first once, so I'll wait and see what Turrin comes up with.

Though I do know that the viz translation made it seem as if Minato _rarely_ used senjutsu, not _never_ used it.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

we will wait for turrin 
but in all the panels ive read it says ive never used it while alive 

kishi deciding to showcase perfect sage mode doesnt mean it was retconned

simply means jiraiya didnt perfect it. which kishi made the effort to state more than once that naruto surpassed jiraiya in that field


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I can't explain the first once, so I'll wait and see what Turrin comes up with.
> 
> Though I do know that the viz translation made it seem as if Minato _rarely_ used senjutsu, not _never_ used it.


Pretty much everything post Tobi battle is a god aweful mess, that's my default position, but I don't even know what i'm suppose to explain as Icegaze's post made no sense. Why do you even bother listening to that obvious troll Rocky.


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## Veracity (Mar 13, 2015)

Didn't sage Naruto canonically react to a blindside attack against the Juubi? Like the attack came from completely behind: at the level of Bee's base strength


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## Rocky (Mar 13, 2015)

This is just a hunch, but do you think it's possible that he may have heard that football field-sized tail approaching...?


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## Veracity (Mar 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> This is just a hunch, but do you think it's possible that he may have heard that football field-sized tail approaching...?



Kakashi wasn't even aware until he was punted out the way...... Plus other shit was happening on the battlefield, it was bound to be noisy regardless .


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## Icegaze (Mar 13, 2015)

@turrin it cant prove anything so decides to call me a troll 
are ur irrevelant feelings hurt
take them and jump off a high bridge

you arent worth it 

sage mode users have been blindsided from sun up to sun down 

jiraiya apparent forgotten perks would have ended the same way. him riddled with rods, if u dont like it go whine to your mum if u have one


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 13, 2015)

Lol spider sense. Icegaze provided the best feat of a SM user outright blindsided. That alone proves the technique is not automatic, there is nothing left to debate here.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so decides to call me a troll
> are ur irrevelant feelings hurt
> take them and jump off a high bridge
> 
> ...



Hey look guys, he's obviously not a troll 



> @turrin it cant prove anything


DB IV on SM Sensing, "by collecting natural energy they gain danger sensing powers."

"*by collecting natural energy* they *gain danger sensing powers*."

"*by collecting natural energy* they *gain danger sensing powers*."

"*by collecting natural energy* they *gain danger sensing powers*."

"*by collecting natural energy* they *gain danger sensing powers*."

Yup can't prove anything at all


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## Trojan (Mar 13, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> kcm naruto has emotion sensing and is quite inferior to sm threat perception hence him sensing the whole battlefield a mile away..its good for telling zetsus apart but as a source of sensing its lacking and do nagato was basically a robot at that point would he even have emotions?



Naruto sensed his father's chakra from countries away when he was in KCM.
Link removed


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## Icegaze (Mar 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Hey look guys, he's obviously not a troll
> 
> 
> DB IV on SM Sensing, "by collecting natural energy they gain danger sensing powers."
> ...



 
wow you are a troll 

i havent denied they cant sense anything what a fuckign idiot 

i said that doesnt make them immune to blind side attacks as shown with madara, Jiriaya and Ma and pa

 seriously life is hard on u. u were born u , curse the gods


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Mar 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> then please explain why Sm madara still got caught from behind by Bm naruto giant avatar
> 
> Sm gives u sensing, kishi didnt really decide to make it different from the others
> 
> ...


In am you become one with nature, you fell the presence of everything around you. So I don't think there were any retcons. Perhaps just laziness and inconsistencies from kishi (nothing new here).

@bold
Viz: he says he didn't use it "much". He didn't say never. 
Also you never saw when he deactived his sm, don't assume it just went away after a second. Considering in order to train in sm, there's no way it would only last a second, otherwise training in it would be impossible.


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## Icegaze (Mar 13, 2015)

he got kicked next panel he didnt have it
then he said he cant use it for long. while alive he either never used it or didnt use it much. depends on your fan bias and translation 

either way point of the thread was with frog katas and sensing jiraiya would have done better which i disagree with 

as naruto had that and still firmly lost to pain. all the while having knowledge 

minato Sm was clearly a retcon because just before hand he asked naruto to add SM chakra to his rasengan. why not do it himself??

kyuubi wont have stopped him from gathering chakra. which would be the only reason he cant do it. in that form


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 13, 2015)

Danger sensing powers that did not help SM Madara sense BM Naruto slamming his Susano into the dirt with a tail from behind, didn't help Jubito avoid Naruto's FTG Rasengan (Tobirama) or Tobirama touch him with his bare hand or his several explosive tags, nor did it help Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto avoid Kaguya's blindside warp and Black Zetsu's grapple or Kaguya avoid Sakura's punch from above with Byakugan active. All of these ninja, of course, having been in a Natural Energy enhanced Mode.


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## Icegaze (Mar 13, 2015)

@Davizwiz
maybe they read somewhere and kishi said sage mode sensing means u cant be surprised or u would dodge all attacks or detect all opponents. 
i didnt read that but they must have.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

I'd really like to know what indicates SM-Madara did not sense BM-Naruto's attack. And why people have decided this was a blindside, rather than SM-Madara simply being in a position where he couldn't defend or evade in time. Also even if that was the case, I'd like to know why one inconsistency from an extremely inconsistent author like Kishimoto is enough to ignore how the DB specifically states SM danger sensing works.


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## sabre320 (Mar 13, 2015)

please tell me how sage madara reacted to tobiramas blindide ftg attack if sage mode threat perception is not automatic?
Link removed
 he sure as hell wasnt focused on tobirama...and the argument of his performance against bm naruto is more laughable to say a great sensor who can fight sm naruto while blind and sensed hashirama while miles away has sage mode threat perception added on cant sense or hear a 500 hundred foot glowing beast avatar rushing him:/ ya he was blindsided...

even basic sensing from skilled sensors can sense bliindside attacks
Link removed

to take away active threat perception is denying one of the main advantages of sage mode and is massively downplaying their abilities..


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 13, 2015)

> I'd really like to know what indicates SM-Madara did not sense BM-Naruto's attack. And why people have decided this was a blindside, rather than SM-Madara simply being in a position where he couldn't defend or evade in time. Also even if that was the case, I'd like to know why one inconsistency from an extremely inconsistent author like Kishimoto is enough to ignore how the DB specifically states SM danger sensing works.


Well, there probably would've been a partial panel where he looked above or had the ! as when he did when Tobirama appeared behind him. Nothing of the sort happened.

As far as not being to defend, he had Limbo, that would've defended him rather nicely. 

It's not just that feat, though. Black Zetsu put his arm in Perfect Judara with murderous intent from behind, Madara was completely dumbfounded, aside from the numerous examples I've provided for Jubito and the example I provided for SPSM Naruto & Perfect Kaguya- all being blindsided. 

Perfect Tri-Rinnegan God-Tree Absorption Judara being unable to react to Black Zetsu's hand would be one hell of a stance for you to take Turrin. Go for it, I dare you. 



> please tell me how sage madara reacted to tobiramas blindide ftg attack if sage mode threat perception is not automatic?
> Link removed
> he sure as hell wasnt focused on tobirama...and the argument of his performance against bm naruto is more laughable to say a great sensor who can fight sm naruto while blind and sensed hashirama while miles away has sage mode threat perception added on cant sense or hear a 500 hundred foot glowing beast avatar rushing him:/ ya he was blindsided...


I'll do you a better one: How did Minato know MS Obito was behind him? Kishimoto decided to write it that way. 

Are you suggesting BM Naurto blitzed Rinnegan Sage Mode Madara outright? 

That's quite a claim, especially considering he reacted to FTG Tobirama several times and beat him in CQC. 



> even basic sensing from skilled sensors can sense bliindside attacks
> Link removed


Of course, if they're focusing. What are you trying to prove? 

t





> o take away active threat perception is denying one of the main advantages of sage mode and is massively downplaying their abilities..


No it's not. The manga outright contradicts automatic sensing abilities, I provided MULTIPLE examples from perhaps the greatest sensors in the manga, all of which had advanced Natural Energy inflation (two of which were in Sage Mode and Six Path Sage Mode). 

You've failed to counter any of those examples logically. I have more examples of a Sage or Juubi Jinchuriki (which has Natural Energy [Juubi] & Rinnegan) being blindsided than a Sage actually reacting to a blindside. 

The bottom line here is Jiraiya thought the battle was over and he was not focused on his surroundings, therefore he was blindsided by Asura Path.


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## sabre320 (Mar 13, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Well, there probably would've been a partial panel where he looked above or had the ! as when he did when Tobirama appeared behind him. Nothing of the sort happened.
> 
> As far as not being to defend, he had Limbo, that would've defended him rather nicely.
> 
> ...



madara sensed tobirama behind him who used an ftg blindside attack thats a instant spacetime attack from behind without automatic threat perception he would not have been able to react ..

minatos a sensor...and has some of the best reactions..so ya..

bm narutos speed has become so understated its laughable..through just his shunshin he deflected five bijudama aimed from different angles at point blank range while hunderds of meters away...gai a goddamn speed demon was dumbfounded by the speed not to mention madara was in sussano so is not as mobile..

so you basically ignored muus panel?? a normal skilled sensor in muu reacted to a blindside attack in kcm naruto..sage mode threat perception is far superior..

black zetsu was basically a part of madara originating from the same dna as his body ..was standing right behind him in rikudo obitos body..who had already impaled juubidara from the front..

kaguya was  never blindsided she was basically barely coherent and blackzetsu was acting as her brain for most of the fight when he was removed she had great difficulty in deciding what decisions to take,..naruto and sasuke pincered her while kakashi neautralized her space time technique which allowed saskura to land the attack because kaguya could not decide what course of action to take because of her sudden lack of black zetsus guidance..

not being able to react is not the same as being blindsided the first time naruto sensed kaguyas portal but was unable to react as he was not used to this level of speed later he sensed and reacted perfectly well..


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Well, there probably would've been a partial panel where he looked above or had the ! as when he did when Tobirama appeared behind him. Nothing of the sort happened.
> 
> As far as not being to defend, he had Limbo, that would've defended him rather nicely.


Not if he didn't have time to do so; BM-Naruto is pretty fast yah know, especially when Kishimoto wanted him to be.

He didn't have Rinnegan at that time. 



> It's not just that feat, though. Black Zetsu put his arm in Perfect Judara with murderous intent from behind,


BZ has demonstrated the ability to basically go undetected by anyone, so it's really not that surprising that he could escape detection one way or another.



> the numerous examples I've provided for Jubito


Juubito didn't have Sennin Modo



> and the example I provided for SPSM Naruto & Perfect Kaguya- all being blindsided.


I think the issue is there is difference between being blindsided and being in a compromised position where someone can't react. Though I would need links to take a look at all examples.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Mar 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> he got kicked next panel he didnt have it
> then he said he cant use it for long. while alive he either never used it or didnt use it much. depends on your fan bias and translation
> 
> either way point of the thread was with frog katas and sensing jiraiya would have done better which i disagree with
> ...


The next panel you can't even see minatos face properly. His entire eye region is pitch blank ink. Even darker than Gaara's face, and Gaara has huge black outlines around his face. That suggests to me that he was still in sm. 

Of course  would have done better. If his sensing was working fine, he wouldn't have been ambushed by Asura, nor would he have lost his arm. Naruto defeated 5 out of 6 pains before being stopped. Jiraya defeated 3. You can clearly see there was a big difference between Naruto and Jiraya's performance.

My fan bias transaltion . I didn't purchase the official viz translation, just so I can be called bias. They are the official translators, meanwhile the crap you read and use for reference are all Internet fan translations. He said "much", sorry that isn't the translation you wanted.
Not everything you cannot understand becomes a retcon. He asked NARUTO to add sage chakra because Naruto was already in sm. The time Naruto was gathering sage chakra, minato was preparing his giant rasengan. They spilt the work load and saved time, makes more sense this way and is much more efficient. Not to mention Naruto gathers nature energy faster, so it was better the way Kishi told it. This isn't a brain teaser, simple reading comprehension.

It's quite clear by your post how badly you want to degrade minato. Calling official translation fan bias lol. Pretending you can actually see that minato is no longer in sm:
hinted by Kishi via Suigetsu
You must have super eyes to be able to tell whether minato is in sm or not here. The whole region above his nose is pitch black, all the way to his head band. Pls don't make things up, and don't pretend sm users don't know how to deactivate their own sm, when we've seen it before.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 13, 2015)

I highly doubt BM naruto can blitz EMS Madara. A far inferior Edo Madara literally trash-talked BM Naruto. It was obvious that Madara was portrayed to be far above BM Naruto.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 14, 2015)

(2)

 Rereading parts of the manga and KCM Naruto can indeed sense chakra, hence why the Hachibi stated that Naruto actually sensed Kurama's Chakra.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2015)

@rasenwhatever the fuck ur name is 
Read chapter 666
First scan he no longer has SM

Why deactivate a mode that makes U stronger and keep trying to fight or be useful ?? I have nothing against ur lover minato . U should get out ur room more . U sound trapped 

SM always U to sense Kishi however never explained that it makes a person ambush proof I don't get the confusion


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Mar 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @rasenwhatever the fuck ur name is
> Read chapter 666
> First scan he no longer has SM
> 
> ...



I don't need to read chapter 666, because that wasn't the next time we saw minato from the time Madara kicked him. He was shown again in chapter 665 4 (25 manga panels later, a lot of dialogue and flashback happened in that time) pages later, where he appears to still be in sm. You said he lost sm after a second, which is blatantly false.

Why deactivate? This is why I don't discuss with morons. Read 667 and then you'll get your answer. Sadly enough it doesn't come obvious to you in 665, that I have to redirect you to 667. Learn to freaking read and understand the manga. Pls explain how one can be useful with no arms? He evens says it in 667. He says he has no arms so he can't weave signs and perform jutsu and therefore can't fight properly. Did you think he was gonna sage bite madara? He literally said there was no point in sm anymore because he can't perform juts up.
 Douche


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## FlamingRain (Mar 15, 2015)

I've been saying it before the 4th databook came out so I'm just going to reiterate that this _isn't_ necessarily a retcon.

Frog Kata's and sensing are inherent within the very Sage Mode transformation itself just as Jutsu empowerment, enhanced strength, durability, etc. are activated by it; once the mode is turned on it should all be turned on.

Appearance is the only thing that was ever highlighted to be different, and I don't think that's just a coincidence. Why would Jiraiya lose characteristics for drawing in slightly too much of what is essentially just _activation energy_? Fukasaku only said you can't use the arts _if you don't have enough_; having too much only begins to turn you into a frog, it doesn't suddenly take away any of the abilities.

I think it might be worth noting that Jiraiya was confused by the paths because even though none of them looked like Nagato he could still definitely _feel_ his former student there. Ma was able to sense Pain's presence in the village before the dust settled from CST (i.e.- before she could see him). We can bring up the chameleon, but the chameleon wasn't even sensed by KCM Naruto when Nagato summoned it during the war. We can bring up Pain ambushing him with Asura path, but Jiraiya thought Pain was dead- when Naruto thought Preta was dead he failed to notice that it had been brought back until it jumped in front of and absorbed a Rasenshuriken. Additionally, the natural energy extension of Frog Kata's won't extend past the point where the actual physical attack lands as seen when Deva blocked Sage Naruto's kick.

Considering that, the notion that Jiraiya simply lacks those arts altogether doesn't seem to make nearly as much sense as the idea that we simply didn't see Frog Kata's from Jiraiya because every single one of his Taijutsu strikes actually made _direct contact_ with his targets instead of missing, while sensing is implied to be a conscious effort which would mean Jiraiya wouldn't have been doing it once he let his guard down and since he didn't figure out the real one wasn't among the paths until he had reverted to base (so he couldn't just grab a rod and start looking once he had incentive to try).


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2015)

@flamming rain perfect post 
I agree


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