# Gilgamesh vs. Kratos



## Cypher0120 (Oct 3, 2013)

Same settings apply as the Dante vs. Kratos thread but with this restriction: No Gae Bolg. Reactions adjusted as needed. 


Zero/Stay Night Gilgamesh vs. Kratos
Extra CCC Gilgamesh vs. Kratos
Kaleid Prisma Illya Gilgamesh vs. Kratos


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## Kazu (Oct 3, 2013)

Really, It's just Gilgamesh vs Kratos in each scenario. Not much changes

Kratos has DC and hax to kill Gil and has reactions to dodges whatever he throws at him. So Kratos wins here.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 3, 2013)

Assuming this is 20 meters starting distance given the OP has given no other specifics that would say otherwise coupled with Kratos' lack of movement speed, Gilgamesh may have the possibility to fully charging Ea in which Kratos wouldn't be able to survive. Also, doesn't Gilgamesh have charms that increases his magic resistance above even Saber anyway?

 I see Gae Bolg was restricted here though, so that's already ruled out.


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## Psychlonius (Oct 3, 2013)

Enkidu will fuck over Kratos big time here. I'll go with Gil here unless cis is on.

And doesn't Extra Gil has FTL Spaceship?

EDIT: Just realized if Gae Bolg is restricted, so Gungnir is ok


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## Sygurgh (Oct 3, 2013)

Enuma Elish doesn't take much time to charge as was shown in Ataraxia.
Can Kratos fly? I know that he can glide.


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## Xiammes (Oct 3, 2013)

Didn't we find out that Gilgamesh's Gale Bolg doesn't have the same effect as the one Lancer uses? It shouldn't be a factor even if it was in.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 3, 2013)

Psychlonius said:


> *Enkidu* will fuck over Kratos big time here.



 Man, how could I have overlooked that? Kratos being a demi-god isn't a good thing to be against that kind of problem at all.


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## JustThisOne (Oct 3, 2013)

Psychlonius said:


> And doesn't Extra Gil has FTL Spaceship?



And how will that help him?


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## Psychlonius (Oct 3, 2013)

JustThisOne said:


> And how will that help him?



Nuke Kratos from the orbit


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## Katou (Oct 3, 2013)

Gate of Babylowned


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## Kazu (Oct 3, 2013)

Oh right, I keep on forgetting about Enkidu. 

Nevermind my post then.


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## Xiammes (Oct 3, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> Oh right, I keep on forgetting about Enkidu.
> 
> Nevermind my post then.



Still doesn't change the fact that Kratos is faster, his weapon range is more then the starting distance, Gilgamesh won't have time to pull out Enkidu let alone charge and fire it.

Its like people have no concept of what a blitz is anymore.


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## Sygurgh (Oct 3, 2013)

Kratos is 3 digits Mach?


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## Psychlonius (Oct 3, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> Still doesn't change the fact that Kratos is faster, his weapon range is more then the starting distance, Gilgamesh won't have time to pull out Enkidu let alone *charge and fire it. *
> 
> Its like people have no concept of what a blitz is anymore.



I think you are mixing Enkidu with Enuma Elish. Enkidu don't need no charge.


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## Kazu (Oct 3, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> Kratos is 3 digits Mach?



He's a lightning timer.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 3, 2013)

Considering Gilgamesh should have mach 45+ reactions and starting distance is 20 meters, that means Gil would still be able to react at attack speeds of mach 900 or less... if Kratos can extend his claws that fast (not sure if reaction speed would even correlate with attack speed, not that I have ever remembered), then he should be able to blitz Gil with the claws. Of course, I want confirmation that Kratos has the attack speed, not just reactions, to do that in the first place.


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## Sablés (Oct 3, 2013)

Enkidu doesn't have charge-time.

It's a chain that binds divine-beings.


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## Xiammes (Oct 3, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> Kratos is 3 digits Mach?



Massively hypersonic, Zues Lighting has shown that it is in the upper limit of lighting (mach 4000+), Kratos can parry and reflect it back at Zues.



> I think you are mixing Enkidu with Enuma Elish. Enkidu don't need no charge.



You are right, besides Kratos as the God of War he wouldn't have that much divinity and I doubt they would be able to constrain him considering Beserker can break out and he is Hercules.


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## Sygurgh (Oct 3, 2013)

Is there a blog or a summary of the feat? Even then, that's reaction and striking speed. Blitzing would involve running at those speeds.


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## willyvereb (Oct 3, 2013)

Can Kratos destroy space-time with his strength?
If not then he'll remain chained via Enkidu.


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## Psychlonius (Oct 3, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> You are right, besides Kratos as the God of War he wouldn't have that much divinity and I doubt they would be able to constrain him considering Beserker can break out and he is Hercules.



It restrained Berserker for some time though. Even though Kratos is stronger, there should be more than enough time to fry him with Ea.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 3, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> Is there a blog or a summary of the feat? Even then, that's reaction and striking speed. Blitzing would involve running at those speeds.



 Kinda what I was trying to ask others since some people here are equating reaction time = attack speed for whatever reason when that's no the case... let alone Kratos' lack of movement.

 ... but I think Willy pinned down a better point anyway since it's not like Kratos can actually _move out of the way_ from a multi-angled attack. All reaction time would really do is give Kratos the reflexes to counter and sidestep, it's not the same as combat speed.


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## Xiammes (Oct 3, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> Is there a blog or a summary of the feat? Even then, that's reaction and striking speed. Blitzing would involve running at those speeds.



Its kinda all over the place, it would be a good idea to organize it.

Kratos has Hermes boots, but I am not going to delve into that shit storm. Kratos doesn't need to move, all his weapons besides his gauntlets have more then enough range to hit Gilgamesh from standard distance.



> Can Kratos destroy space-time with his strength?
> If not then he'll remain chained via Enkidu.



I don't remember anything about them being used by Space-time, just that the more divinity they have the stronger the chains become, which Kratos has lost all of his "divinity" between GoW1 and the beginning of GoW2.



> The strength and durability of the chain grows stronger with the target having higher divinity, but is no more than a tough chain to a target without divinity


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## willyvereb (Oct 3, 2013)

Enkidu seals the target in a different space.
That's how it seals one from its Divinity.
And Berserker did break this barrier of space then.
He's just that good.


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## Sygurgh (Oct 3, 2013)

To blitz from 20 meters, Kratos' attack speed would have to be far faster than Mach 900 (20 x Mach 45, as Gilgamesh would have 20 meters to react). Not to mention that reaction speed isn't attack speed.


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## Xiammes (Oct 3, 2013)

> Enkidu seals the target in a different space.
> That's how it seals one from its Divinity.
> And Berserker did break this barrier of space then.
> He's just that good.



Except its supposed to be useless to those without divinity, I fail to see how it would seal everyone in a different space.


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## Xiammes (Oct 3, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> To blitz from 20 meters, Kratos' attack speed would have to be far faster than Mach 900 (20 x Mach 45, as Gilgamesh would have 20 meters to react). Not to mention that reaction speed isn't attack speed.



Its hardly just reaction speed, Kratos can parry at those speeds, meaning he can move at those speeds, you can imply that it only means that Kratos can only move his arms at those speeds but thats all he needs to use his weapons.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 3, 2013)

Willy probably means the spatial sealing is merely a side effect from attempting to separate one from their divine source... at least that's how I am reading it.


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## Sygurgh (Oct 3, 2013)

You have to be fast, but you don't need to move at lightning speed to parry a lightning bolt.

And Enkido does bind space.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 3, 2013)

I'll state again that reaction time =/= combat speed. Having the reflexes doesn't mean one actually fights at those speeds since it's a feat of stimuli receiving input. I am sure that hans't change around here concerning the difference between those two.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 3, 2013)

> Kratos is 3 digits Mach?


maybe or maybe 4 digit

it needs to actually be calced


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## willyvereb (Oct 3, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> Except its supposed to be useless to those without divinity, I fail to see how it would seal everyone in a different space.


And that's bullshit based on feats.
Yes, Enkidu can act similar to a normal chain (a fairly powerful one at that) but it also has the ability to seal the target in a different space.


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## Xiammes (Oct 3, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> You have to be fast, but you don't need to move at lightning speed to parry a lightning bolt.
> 
> And Enkido does bind space.



When at few meters away? It would still be above the blitzing line for Gilgamesh.


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## Sygurgh (Oct 3, 2013)

Can you prove that Kratos can attack far faster than Mach 900+?
Do so and I'll agree that Kratos can blitz if he has a weapon with a range of 20 meters that is not a bow or a spell.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 3, 2013)

hmm, could someone post the pic of Enkidus spatial sealing (or description of such a a property) ?


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## Kazu (Oct 3, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> hmm, could someone post the pic of Enkidus spatial sealing (or description of such a a property) ?





Skip a little bit...

Ilyasviel commands Berserker to retreat using her Command Spell.
But the giant is still bound by chains, unable to move an inch.

"It is useless, you puppet. Not even the gods can escape these chains. No, it will become stronger the more divine one is. This is a chain made to bind the gods. I will not allow transportation through a Command Spell."


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 3, 2013)

hmm,                ok


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## Xiammes (Oct 3, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> Can you prove that Kratos can attack far faster than Mach 900+?
> Do so and I'll agree that Kratos can blitz.



You do realize how speed works, Kratos can theoretically parry the lighting at any range, even right in Zeus face, but to satisfy you here is a extremely simple barebones calc.

The lighting was going somewhere around mach 4000+(can't be arsed to look up the actual number).

From 1 meter away, Kratos would be mach 4000, more then enough to blitz
From 2 meters away, Kratos would be mach 2000, still enough to blitz
From 3 meters away, Kratos would be mach 1,333.3, still enough to blitz
From 4 meters away, Kratos would be mach 1000, still enough to blitz
From 5 meters away, Kratos would be mach 800, just barely below blitzing


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## Sygurgh (Oct 3, 2013)

Are you talking about game mechanics? The boss fight? The Link versus Ganondorf kind of fight?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 3, 2013)

that's not really how you calc this

we need the frame by frame comparison of lightning movement vs Kratos movement


tedious, I know, but eh


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 3, 2013)

someone said *game mechanics*


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## willyvereb (Oct 3, 2013)

1.) The Mach 4000 claim got trashed since the novel's canonicity is in doubt.
2.) Currently Kratos' speed is scaled based on his lightning-timing feat from the God of War 2 PV
(Which the creators confirmed on Twitter or something.)
3.) Kratos' speed feat is for reaction speed. It doesn't correlate with his longer range movement. As such that doesn't allow him to speedblitz.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 3, 2013)

why all Kratos threads turn out so bad ?


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## Ramius (Oct 3, 2013)

Because I entered it?


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## Nep Heart (Oct 3, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> why all Kratos threads turn out so bad ?



 People simply refusing to organize established calcs to show clear evidence of Kratos' capabilities more often than not from what I have seen. With that said, lazy fuckers need to get to that already so we can end these kind of shitstorms Kratos is prone to cause. Anyway, Willy's post pretty much agrees with my statement that Kratos does not benefit from reactions to get his actual combat speed.


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## Sygurgh (Oct 3, 2013)

If the preview that was posted is the extent of the lightning feat, then even Night/Gilgamesh has this in the bag.


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## Psychlonius (Oct 3, 2013)

I was wondering how strong is Kaleid Prisma Illya Gilgamesh? Is he stronger or weaker than the FSN one?


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## willyvereb (Oct 3, 2013)

Well, according to his profile, Kratos also have a hypersonic combat speed feat powerscaled to him.
So he isn't THAT slow.
Still, saying that he speedblitzes here is rather dubious.


Sygurgh said:


> If the preview that was posted is the extent of the lightning feat, then even Night/Gilgamesh has this in the bag.


Actually, that lightning-timing isn't that bad for a feat.
Kratos reacts pretty late and then comparably jumps big.
It is even plausible that he temporally jumped faster than the lightning bolt.

But again, that's something that only applies for a few meters of distance.
It can give him the chance to attack first but to speedblitz...well, not really.


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## Kazu (Oct 3, 2013)

Psychlonius said:


> I was wondering how strong is Kaleid Prisma Illya Gilgamesh? Is he stronger or weaker than the FSN one?



He's weaker apparently (something something half incarnated) but he's stronger in the fact that he's less arrogant.


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## Xiammes (Oct 3, 2013)

Looking at it Frame by Frame, the lighting has already hit Kratos(you can see the yellow lighting effect as if Kratos blocked it) before Zeus actually threw the lighting, some lazy ass programming that they didn't expect people to analyze it frame by frame. So its kinda beyond me.


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## Sygurgh (Oct 3, 2013)

I'm uncertain about the profiles since I saw that someone had changed Bleach to Mach 90+ while the feat was still being debated and subsequently burned to the ground. Is there a way to easily find the feats mentioned in the profile, in this case hypersonic combat speed Kratos?

Xiammes: If he was hit, then we can say that he tanked the lightning?


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## Psychlonius (Oct 3, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> He's weaker apparently (something something half incarnated) but he's stronger in the fact that he's less arrogant.



So enough for Kratos to win?


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## Xiammes (Oct 3, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> why all Kratos threads turn out so bad ?



Its destiny, just like the actual games people have a love hate relationship with it.


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## Sygurgh (Oct 3, 2013)

This is the reason it isn't impressive:



The bolt missed in the first place. Aside from a movement of a few centimeters, the jump started after the bolt hit the ground.


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## willyvereb (Oct 3, 2013)

I see.
Well, the bolt didn't move much by that point, either.
So I think it's still MHS in speed.
On the other hand it's even more strictly just applies for Kratos' reaction speed.


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## Navy Scribe (Oct 3, 2013)

I disagree,firstly he did jump before the lightning reached him and when the bolt made contact it made a release,either way he still managed to avoid it. There was also another confirmation about the feat with Todscrewup Pappy that was more accurate in terms of portayal,what next after this?Jesus.

Will edit this post with the pics in a minute.





Edit:This isnt the only time he reacted to Lightning bolts either,he did it twice in GOW3 IIRC.


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## Sygurgh (Oct 3, 2013)

Can it really be considered massively hypersonic? In the first instances of the video, the bolt moved a large distance every 1/25th of a second. The reason it didn't move further in 1/25th of a second here is that it didn't have a large distance to travel.

If we calculate Kratos' jump using the frame-rate of the video, we don't have a hypersonic result.

But he should have hypersonic reaction from reacting to the lightning in the first place.


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## willyvereb (Oct 3, 2013)

Time is fairly relative in fiction.
If the lightning did move slower in the last tiny segment it means time got further slowed down.
Simple as that.


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## Sygurgh (Oct 3, 2013)

I see. I'll try to calculate the result.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2013)

Oh look, its a Nasu AND GoW thread.

This was almost physically painful to read.

And as a reminder, that feat from the commercial also further works as confirmation that... yes, Zeus' lightning is the real shit and all feats comparing the speed of that to Kratos is fair game.


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## Sygurgh (Oct 3, 2013)

I have a question though.

If I have a video where a bullet hit a wall 10 cm away in 1/30th of a second (speed of the video), and in the 1/30th of a second a character moved one meter, does it mean that I can consider that the character moved 1 meter in the time it took the bullet to move 10 cm?


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## willyvereb (Oct 3, 2013)

Most likely yes.
But at certain times that might be overanalyzing fiction.

EDIT: Oh, you meant two separate events?
In that case my answer is no.
Like I said the flow of time is in a constant flux in fiction.
Or at least the way the audience perceives it.


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## Navy Scribe (Oct 3, 2013)

Myabe we should look at the colors of the pixels to further confirm this feat no?


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## Red Angel (Oct 3, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Oh look, its a Nasu AND GoW thread.
> 
> This was almost physically painful to read.
> 
> And as a reminder, that feat from the commercial also further works as confirmation that... yes, Zeus' lightning is the real shit and all feats comparing the speed of that to Kratos is fair game.



And the fact he dodges it from close ranges and given how the Golden Fleece works, yeah


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## Nep Heart (Oct 3, 2013)

Skarbrand said:


> how the Golden Fleece works, yeah



 So, are you claiming that Golden Fleece can block and defend against spatial extinction based hax? Which would have been likewise ignored here as well.


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## Red Angel (Oct 3, 2013)

No, I saw lightning timing was being discussed (again) and given Kratos deflected Zeus' lughtning with the GF, and after you get the GF, it's description is something along the lines of "catch x attack and send it back at your opponent before impact" or something along those lines (will try to dig a vid up later, at work atm)

Not really arguing the thread, although Kratos is likely physically superior in most notable aspects save speed, that's all I can really say, lol


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## Navy Scribe (Oct 3, 2013)

It also is capable of deflecting AoE too IIRC in-game. Guess that also falls under "enemy attacks".


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## Red Angel (Oct 3, 2013)

Or that works just as nicely. To the point where naysayers can't do much more than just plug their fingers in the ears and scream "aimdodging", lol


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## Sygurgh (Oct 4, 2013)

I started the scaling, but the video is crap and it's impossible to locate the feet in the first frame, and I couldn't find a HD version. If you have it or have a link, it would be welcome.

Anyway:

Do we *[1]* estimate the distance the lightning has to travel from Kratos' height, or *[2]* do we try to find the distance despite the perspective using something like this:



 (this is not final, just to illustrate)


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## Navy Scribe (Oct 4, 2013)

The  first pic is just for perspective,you know just like when a big event happens but you cant exactly tell what is going on? Then when we get that view behind him that actually shows what was being done. I also don't think there is a higher def out there on youtube,perhaps it might be on the game data but the company  holds the true Hd version,this was caught on a capture card from a while ago and just circulated,Santa Monica probably has it archived somewhere.

Kratos is about 8'6' by the way.


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## Sygurgh (Oct 5, 2013)

Isn't that a bit tall? If I use the picture of him with his daughter I found that she was around 1.60~1.70 meters at 8 years old. It's not just her either, everybody would be giant.

I'll post something today using this value, but it's a bit strange.


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## Xiammes (Oct 5, 2013)

Developer commentary says that Kratos is over 8 foot in GoW 3, it was probably a decision made later in the games after it showed him with his daughter. Kratos is supposed to be pretty big.


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## Azzuri (Oct 5, 2013)

So if Kratos is eight feet something, how tall would his wife, daughter, and Zeus be? Lol.


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## Sygurgh (Oct 5, 2013)

Calculation done.


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## Psychlonius (Oct 5, 2013)

I honestly thought that would be somewhat higher..


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