# Deidara vs Tsunade



## Pocalypse (Sep 26, 2014)

*Location:* Deidara vs Sasuke
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Distance:* 20m
*Mindset:* To kill
*Restrictions:* C0

Does Deidara bomb her to death or Tsunade survives and eventually brings him down to CQC? Deidara starts on the ground btw...


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## Rocky (Sep 26, 2014)

C4........


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## Bonly (Sep 26, 2014)

Once Deidara gets to the skies it's a simple case of nuking vs healing/protecting(with Katsuyu) more or less. Does one think Tsunade will run out of chakra from constantly healing from the huge AoE of C2,C3 and the cellular damage of C4 or does one think Deidara would run out of chakra or clay first thus leaving Tsunade to eventually finish him off. I personally tend to side with the former but it could go either way depending on how Deidara plays it.


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## trance (Sep 26, 2014)

Deidara takes to the skies and trolls with C4.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 26, 2014)

Yeah I'm not quiet sure who'd win either. Tsunade seems to have a longer shot of lasting longer and just tanking hits from Deidara until he's out and Byakugo will likely deal with C4 since it's on a cellular level as well. Do you think the acid from Katsuyu can negate the clay bombs?


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## Ghost (Sep 26, 2014)

Once Deidara is in the air Tsunade won't be able to do anything.

C4 is not even needed.


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## DavyChan (Sep 26, 2014)

This is very situational because i mean Tsunade >>> Hebi Sasuke who beat deidara. he had a better way of fighting. with katsuya she might find a way. she might find a way of keeping alive. i see herr having a good chance. deidara could possibly win for the bad matchup.


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## Ghost (Sep 26, 2014)

dpwater25 said:


> Tsunade >>> Hebi Sasuke



not even close.


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## ARGUS (Sep 26, 2014)

Deidara wins this,, 
once he goes airborne, tsunade has no chance


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## JuicyG (Sep 26, 2014)

Deidara is a bad match up for Tsunade. She has to be within range to get to her opponent and do some damage. While in the sky deidara just nukes the shit out of her. Kishi should have gave Tsunade a means of closing distance.

If someones punches = devasting then she most be very strong. If someone is very strong they should be able to jump very high, or punch the ground and send themselves flying in a certain direction. Kishi did neither for her


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## Kazekage94 (Sep 26, 2014)

I agree, Deidara wins.

There are only 3 out of 5 Gokage that can beat Deidara and Tsunade isn't one of them. C3 should blow her up. Katsuyu is a nonfactor


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 26, 2014)

I could actually see Tsunade defeating Deidara in the manga, at least Kishimoto could have written it that way by making Deidara dick around too much and do a stupid mistake. 
But in BD, it ain't happening.  
Deidara toys and destroys.



dpwater25 said:


> This is very situational because i mean Tsunade >>> Hebi Sasuke



lolwut ?


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## Dr. White (Sep 26, 2014)

Diedara takes to the skies and just outlast her, eventually his nano-bombs come into play and Tsunade get's GG'd.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 26, 2014)

It's a bad matchup cellular wreckage would waste tsunade especially since deidara has shown he can pack at least 2 helpings of C4 in a single battle. Add in flight and yeah...


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## Hachibi (Sep 26, 2014)

Deidara destroy.
Also lol at Tsunade being >>> Hebi Sauce.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 26, 2014)

20m start distance on the ground against Tsunade, doubtful he gets off before he eats her fist or foot. 

People overestimating Deidara here a bit, this the same dude that was blitzed by Sai while on a clay bird from a similar distance. 

In other words, Tsunade kills him before he preps a bird and gets off the ground.

If he does get off the ground, we're looking at 5% Katsuya acid bath.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 26, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> 20m start distance on the ground against Tsunade, doubtful he gets off before he eats her fist or foot.
> 
> People overestimating Deidara here a bit, this the same dude that was blitzed by Sai while on a clay bird from a similar distance.
> 
> ...



Any indication that Tsunade is faster than Sai ?


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 26, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Any indication that Tsunade is faster than Sai ?


None, beyond the fact that Tsunade put her hand through an Edo Madara clone, reacted to Katons that outpaced his Edo body and kicked through his Susano before he could react, and blindside-blitzed Manda who suddenly popped out in front of Gamabunta while carrying a building-sized blade. 

Any indication that Deidara is faster than Tsunade?


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## OG Appachai (Sep 26, 2014)

inb4 tsuande fans say "FCD GG"



DaVizWiz said:


> Any indication that Deidara is faster than Tsunade?


reacted to hebi sauce, outran team Gai on foot for a bit. Thats all that comes to mind for now.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 26, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> None, beyond the fact that Tsunade put her hand through an Edo Madara clone, reacted to Katons that outpaced his Edo body and kicked through his Susano before he could react, and blindside-blitzed Manda who suddenly popped out in front of Gamabunta while carrying a building-sized blade.



Deidara was able to react to Hebi Sasuke, and get away from him. He did the same to Team Gai.

According to you, Sai is faster than Hebi Sasuke & team Gai, so how exactly those feats place her above those people ? None of them are decent speed feats anyway.



> Any indication that Deidara is faster than Tsunade?



Deidara doesn't need to be faster than Tsunade to be able to react and escape from her.

But She has to be much much faster than Deidara to be able to blitz him, like you are suggesting she will do to him here from 20 meters.


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## Mercurial (Sep 26, 2014)

Deidara could react to Hebi Sasuke, dodging Tsunade's hits and take the fly would be easy.

Also Tsunade didn't blitz anyone, come on, Madara could react to Ei and BM Naruto, to light speed-projected Tsunade too... he was clearly taking a nap watching the Gokage efforts.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 26, 2014)

Contrary to popular belief, Tsunade is perfectly capable of striking down airborne opponents. With her titanic strength, Tsunade can easily rip up huge chunks of earth and toss them at Deidara. Or alternatively, summon Katsuyu, have her fire a long-ranged Zesshi Nensan at Deidara and power it up further using Byakugou no Jutsu - considering the fact she was capable of making Onoki's Jinton about ten times bigger, she should be able to empower Katsuyu's technique to the point it should be far too big for the mad bomber of Iwagakure to evade. Considering the fact that its area-of-effect, on its own, was enough to melt a hill - with Tsunade supercharging it, it should become a literal ocean of acid flying towards Deidara.

Even in Part I, Tsunade was capable of leaping to insane heights (slightly above the height of Manda, who is hundred meters tall, and Deidara normally *never* flies that high in most of his fights), and that too when she was clearly rusty and out of her combat prime for two decades, and all the while she was being weighed down by Gamabunta's massive katana, which was about the size as a large building - preventing her from getting as high as she realistically could have. As far as I'm concerned, at full power and with absolutely nothing weighing her down, Tsunade shouldn't have any difficult whatsoever at catching an airborne Deidara or his clay transport.

And Tsunade can easily rip up huge chunks of earth or the surroundings and toss it all up at Deidara with massive force. Even Sasori (someone who has a 4.5 in speed, same as Deidara) couldn't physically dodge a projectile hurled by Sakura's super strength, and at that point, Sakura was massively weaker than the Tsunade we see now. All things considered, she should have NO DIFFICULTY hitting an airborne Deidara. I don't see C1 or C2 phasing someone with Tsunade's natural durability and level of regeneration techniques, and C3 can be easily meat-shielded by using Katsuyu, if not jumped above by virtue of Tsunade's insane jumping strength. The problem is C4, but I don't see Deidara surviving anywhere near long enough to get it off - more likely than not, Tsunade just kills him.

Tsunade was able to blitz Shizune in Part I, even in a rusty state and without killing intent, and Shizune had a 4 in speed. She was also able to surprise Orochimaru with the speed of her kick, in spite of Orochimaru having a 4.5 in speed, in spite of still being rusty at the damage, and also being severely wounded and lying in a disadvantaged position at the time. She was able to keep up with Base A and attack in concert with him, reacting in sync with Mabui's light-speed Tenso no Jutsu along the way - as opposed to simply dodging or skirting the blow, which is far more IC for him. Tsunade is by no means slow and has a realistic chance of blitzing and killing Deidara before he ever takes to the sky.


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## Rocky (Sep 26, 2014)

Tsunade is not speed blitzing...


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## FlamingRain (Sep 26, 2014)

Tsunade swings Katsuyu like a bat and knocks him into the moon.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 26, 2014)

> Deidara was able to react to Hebi Sasuke, and get away from him. He did the same to Team Gai.


He reacted 2/3rds of the way, then Sasuke went after Obito. If he had continued on after Deidara he'd of been bisected. His body was literally less than a meter away from his wide-stroke, by the time his sword was through Obito Deidara wasn't even out of close quarters [1]. 



> According to you, Sai is faster than Hebi Sasuke & team Gai, so how exactly those feats place her above those people ? None of them are decent speed feats anyway.


No, according to Kishimoto he is. I didn't write the manga, I simply interpreted it. 

Deidara is in no way shape or form on Hebi Sasuke's speed level. He canonically admitted Sasuke was "definitely too fast." 



> Deidara doesn't need to be faster than Tsunade to be able to react and escape from her.
> 
> But She has to be much much faster than Deidara to be able to blitz him, like you are suggesting she will do to him here from 20 meters.


20m is nothing, it's 65 feet. 

I don't see how he creates a clay bird and boards it before he's hit by her when he fails to react to a 3-sequence blitz by Sai that warranted drawing and forming an ink bird, flying behind him, drawing and forming two ink men, then hitting him- all whilst in plain sight on a clay bird. 

To suggest Tsunade is unable to simply put a finger on him when Sai did that to him while on a clay bird is pretty ridiculous.



> Tsunade is not speed blitzing...


As worthless of an argument as suggesting Deidara didn't get blitzed by Sai.


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## LostSelf (Sep 26, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade swings Katsuyu like a bat and knocks him into the moon.



Tsunade puts Katsuyu in her bra and uses the slug as a slingshot.


*Spoiler*: __ 



OT: Deidara should go into the air, and if he is not surprised and doesn't dick around, enough to avoid Food Kart Destroyer (that Tsunade should know or attempt if Jiraiya had it and she was her teammate, then he wins.


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## Rocky (Sep 26, 2014)

Tsunade rips off her own breasts and pegs them at Deidara like cannonballs. 

The they regenerate so she can do it again.


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## JuicyG (Sep 26, 2014)

Assuming Tsunade can attack the sky from the ground is ok to a certain extent. But she's not beating a low kage level shinobi whose bread and butter is in the sky...not happening


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## Turrin (Sep 26, 2014)

Deidara w/ Manga knowledge is guarantee'd to dick around on the ground with C1, and get killed by Tsunade before he gets the chance to go airborn. Tsunade low diffs him.


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## Kazekage94 (Sep 26, 2014)

Tsunade doesn't low dif at all.
You guys assume he will mess around.
If he doesn't? 

Takes to the sky and bombs her ass.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 26, 2014)

Diedara fodders...

Tsunade isn't blitzing when a Itachi pressuring Hebi-Sasuke couldn't (while Deidara was blabbing mind you). He goes airborne and nukes the living hell out of her until she's a pile of ash 

GG


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## FlamingRain (Sep 26, 2014)

"Itachi pressuring", huh? I guess someone missed Zetsu saying that Itachi'd normally have no issue avoiding the things Sasuke was pulling.

Sasuke may be faster but the area-of-effect produced by the impact of Tsunade's strikes is ridiculously larger, and she is not above changing the terrain to her advantage IC _(1)_ _(2)_, which is a very legitimate factor _(3)_ against even veteran ninja _(4)_ _(5)_.

Deidara hops back into a tree and she collapses that section of the forest, which may be debilitating for him as he can only fly after bringing out his bird and hopping on it. At the very least, escaping Tsunade is going to be a whole other ballgame compared to escaping Sasuke and even team Gai, because it's more than a question of whether or not he can react.

That's not even taking into account the chance that Katsuyu's emergence and possibly even the subsequent Zesshi Nensan might catch him off guard even if he makes it onto his bird.

He certainly isn't foddering anything.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 26, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> He reacted 2/3rds of the way, then Sasuke went after Obito.
> If he had continued on after Deidara he'd of been bisected. His body was literally less than a meter away from his wide-stroke, by the time his sword was through Obito Deidara wasn't even out of close quarters [1].


No, Deidara was infront of Tobi. That blur in the mid panel is Deidara jumping away. So by the time Sasuke was within striking range, Deidara was gone.




> No, according to Kishimoto he is. I didn't write the manga, I simply interpreted it.



Fair enough. Sai is faster than Hebi Sasuke & Team Gai. Alot faster I'd say, considering that he didn't just move, but he also performed lots of actions as you described below.



> Deidara is in no way shape or form on Hebi Sasuke's speed level. He canonically admitted Sasuke was "definitely too fast."


I didn't say he was, but he was fast enough to avoid him, and keep his distance. Thats all he needs to do here.



> 20m is nothing, it's 65 feet.



Its actually pretty significant when you are talking about a speed blitz. 



> I don't see how he creates a clay bird and boards it before he's hit by her when he fails to react to a 3-sequence blitz by Sai that warranted drawing and forming an ink bird, flying behind him, drawing and forming two ink men, then hitting him- all whilst in plain sight on a clay bird.


Getting "blitzed" by Sai only shows how fast Sai is. So again, describing what Sai did doesn't diminish Deidara's speed. Deidara can physically react to Sasuke and Team Gai. It just happens that Sai is faster than Deidara by a significant margin.



> To suggest Tsunade is unable to simply put a finger on him when Sai did that to him while on a clay bird is pretty ridiculous.


No its not, unless of course you can prove that Tsunade is much faster than Hebi Sasuke & team Gai and around Sai's speed tier.


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## Turrin (Sep 26, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Tsunade doesn't low dif at all.
> You guys assume he will mess around.
> If he doesn't?
> 
> Takes to the sky and bombs her ass.


I don't assume shit. He's done it *every* battle.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 26, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> "Itachi pressuring", huh? I guess someone missed Zetsu saying that Itachi'd normally have no issue avoiding the things Sasuke was pulling.



Relative to have fast Itachi is, yes even pressuring sick Itachi is massive statement, when the man beat Kakashi in CqC, and could _still_ best Sasuke while half blind and dying. Healthy Itachi is on the same speed tier as people like Minato, Raikagenaut, Killer B, Mifune etc..



FlamingRain said:


> Sasuke may be faster but the area-of-effect produced by the impact of Tsunade's strikes is ridiculously larger, and she is not above changing the terrain to her advantage IC _(1)_ _(2)_, which is a very legitimate factor _(3)_ against even veteran ninja _(4)_ _(5)_.



Which again is pointless as Deidara is reflexive enough, crafty enough and fast enough to fly out of range (so changing the terrain accomplishes nothing). The man was able to escape from all of Team Naruto & Guy (and still almost killed them had it not been for Kakashi)... he has PLENTY of options for escaping Tsunade's She-hulk rampaging 



FlamingRain said:


> Deidara hops back into a tree and she collapses that section of the forest, which may be debilitating for him as he can only fly after bringing out his bird and hopping on it. At the very least, escaping Tsunade is going to be a whole other ballgame compared to escaping Sasuke and even team Gai, because it's more than a question of whether or not he can react.



Or Deidara does what he did to Sasuke and blows Tsunade apart, as unlike Sasuke... she's not fast enough to dodge them. Assuming he can't.... Dediara trolls Tsunade the way he did Naruto via Clay Bunshin....

 and then he nukes Tsunade from the sky 



FlamingRain said:


> That's not even taking into account the chance that Katsuyu's emergence and possibly even the subsequent Zesshi Nensan might catch him off guard even if he makes it onto his bird.
> 
> He certainly isn't foddering anything.



All Katsuya summoning does is warrant C3 bombing and if that doesn't kill her and her slug, Deidara goes for C4 which WILL


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## Nikushimi (Sep 27, 2014)

C4 Karura erases Tsunade from the map.


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## JuicyG (Sep 27, 2014)

I dont see how in BD logic that Deidara will lose this match. Tsunade has everything going against her


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 27, 2014)

20 meters for diedara enough said


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 27, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I don't assume shit. He's done it *every* battle.



not gaara or alliance fodder, or oonaki


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## FlamingRain (Sep 27, 2014)

Joakim3 said:


> Relative to have fast Itachi is, yes even pressuring sick Itachi is massive statement.



And how fast do you think that is exactly?



> When the man can go par to par with Kakashi.



I don't exactly doubt that Tsunade could.

May as well be irrelevant, because Itachi's sickness was _progressive_; the one that fought Sasuke was even weaker than the one that fought Kakashi, and all he did was grab his sleeve over his elbow when Kakashi performed an uppercut and left himself in the air for a minute and then grab the back of his head after his punch missed.

That's more about skill than speed.



> could still best Sasuke



Remember you brought up the Itachi example in order to support _Sasuke's speed_ and then on to Deidara's.

So what you're essentially saying is:

"Itachi is impressive because he could marginally best Sasuke, therefore _Sasuke_ must be impressive for pressuring him, as Itachi could best Sasuke."

I hope I don't have to explain how inept that sounds.

It's even worse than saying TenTen is a beast because she could beat her own clone.



> would be able to _*comically*_ out dance someone like Tsunade in CqC.... all while sick



Yeah right.

You're overestimating the speed differences and their importance.

I'll admit Itachi's shown that he's very quick in each of his fights but the most prominent thing has always been hand-seal speed specifically; he couldn't blitz Kurenai when she was fresh out of a Genjutsu and had just ducked his slash, and this was the healthiest version we had seen of him in the manga.

Tsunade is way above Kurenai in martial arts proficiency, far more knowledgeable of human body dynamics and far more experienced analyzing and reading into them. He is not going to "comically out-dance" Tsunade in close-combat, as reasonably being able to react just fine she could just snag his hand or foot in that situation and proceed to snap it right off...

Or utilize Ranshinshō when she puts up her guard...either way, his only hope to tango with her up close is through repeated clone-feints, not sheer speed.



> Which again is pointless as Deidara is reflexive enough



What? Don't give me that when I just claimed _*"it's more than a question of whether or not he can react"*_. I don't doubt he can react, whether or not he's able to does not address my point.



> crafty enough



What does craftiness have to do with anything?

Being "crafty" isn't going to somehow speed up the physical process of molding and then mounting the bird and it ascending.

Being "crafty" doesn't stop his Doton dig from being detrimental to his own self.

Being "crafty" doesn't stop the trees from falling down.



> and fast enough to fly out of range (so changing the terrain accomplishes nothing).



The terrain change is almost immediate. You're telling me Deidara will take out his clay, mold it into a bird, throw it so the bird can grow to full size, hop on it, and then take off high enough to escape all before the ground shattering like glass and the forest falling in jams his act like what happened to Kakashi and Gai.

Yeah...I'm a bit apprehensive about that, because dodging Sasuke doesn't justify it, and merely jumping gets him caught up in the resulting turbulence and/or forest collapse anyway so that's not optimal either.

You really think it accomplishes _nothing_?



> The man was able to escape from all of Team Naruto & Guy with no one noticing...



That achievement is non-comparable to what is required of Deidara in this thread.

He did that largely by ducking beneath and behind tree-branches and bushes while running away, and all of that is going to disappear or get destroyed if Tsunade hits the ground and demolishes the general vicinity.

He hasn't the same options, so like I said, whole different ballgame.



> Or Deidara does what he did to Sasuke and blows Tsunade apart, as unlike Sasuke... she's not fast enough to dodge them.



Firstly, where are you getting that Tsunade can't simply dodge those bombs?

Secondly, what he did to Sasuke was first leap back onto a tree-branch. What I'm proposing is that said tree-branch would just as soon be falling down in this scenario and the subsequent fall, which he didn't have to face against Sasuke, would leave him in quite a predicament.



> Assuming he can't.... Dediara trolls Tsunade the way he did Naruto via Clay Bunshin....



You mean _after getting hit once_? 

Yeah I don't think that's going to work.



> All Katsuya summoning does is warrant C3 bombing.



That's assuming Deidara is far enough away that Katsuyu appearing doesn't squish him by virtue of her size.


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## Veracity (Sep 27, 2014)

SaI is not faster then Tsuande lol.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 27, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> And how fast do you think that is exactly?



Faster than Sasuke...... who has _consistently_ been stated as fast by multiple fast people... Deidara, V1 Ei, Madara, Mifune, Killer B etc.. 



FlamingRain said:


> I don't exactly doubt that Tsunade could.
> 
> May as well be irrelevant, because Itachi's sickness was _progressive_; the one that fought Sasuke was even weaker than the one that fought Kakashi, and all he did was grab his sleeve over his elbow when Kakashi performed an uppercut and left himself in the air for a minute and then grab the back of his head after his punch missed.
> 
> That's more about skill than speed.



You still need to be fast enough to execute and exploit said skill... Itachi did that against two seasoned Sharingan users, with a sick body... 

Prime example... Base Lee & Kimimaro have more skill in CqC than Itachi, but they lack the speed to hit the man 



FlamingRain said:


> Remember you brought up the Itachi example in order to support _Sasuke's speed_ and then on to Deidara's.
> 
> So what you're essentially saying is:
> 
> ...



Um yes.... Deidara reacted and dodged an opponent that could tango with Itachi, V1 Ei & Kakashi, something speed wise Tsunade does not compare to

Sure she has AoE but again, Deidara can out run her, and if she jumps in the air to do a power bomb, she's essentially an open target for bombing



FlamingRain said:


> Yeah right.
> 
> You're overestimating the speed differences and their importance.
> 
> I'll admit Itachi's shown that he's very quick in each of his fights but the most prominent thing has always been hand-seal speed specifically; he couldn't blitz Kurenai when she was fresh out of a Genjutsu and had just ducked his slash, and this was the healthiest version we had seen of him in the manga.



Um he most certainly did blitz her when he appeared in front of her face and kicked her into the river, again and thats assuming he wasn't holding back like Kisame as not to draw reinforcements.



FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade is way above Kurenai in martial arts proficiency, far more knowledgeable of human body dynamics and far more experienced analyzing and reading into them. He is not going to "comically out-dance" Tsunade in close-combat, as reasonably being able to react just fine she could just snag his hand or foot in that situation and proceed to snap it right off...
> 
> Or utilize Ranshinshō when she puts up her guard...either way, his only hope to tango with her up close is through repeated clone-feints, not sheer speed.



Thats fine and all but multiple people from Orchimaru, Kabuto & Ei have stated that her Taijutsu has gotten worse over the years... Itachi or Sasuke for the matter would be no different than the way Tendo laughed at Hinata's attempt to physically hit him

The speed disparity is _that_ big



FlamingRain said:


> What does craftiness have to do with anything?
> 
> Being "crafty" isn't going to somehow speed up the physical process of molding and then mounting the bird and it ascending.
> 
> ...



Which takes almost no time when he crafter and molded C2 within 3 panels. Deidara was able to take to giant Shuriken out of his arms, mold, create & hop on a bird before C2 hit the ground after Sasuke cut its wing, he's plenty capable of making a bird fast enough.... 

.... Again thats assuming that bird *wasn't kept a reserve* so he could pull it out pre-made, without having to mold it  



FlamingRain said:


> The terrain change is almost immediate. You're telling me Deidara will take out his clay, mold it into a bird, throw it so the bird can grow to full size, hop on it, and then take off high enough to escape all before the ground shattering like glass and the forest falling in jams his act like what happened to Kakashi and Gai.



Again assuming thats Tsunade's opening move and Deidara doesn't keep one prepped an loaded for emergency situations yes I am... Deidara was escaping explosions/collateral damage when he was nuking acre's of forest when he had to detonate bombs at point blank to prevent Sasuke from cutting his head off



FlamingRain said:


> Yeah...I'm a bit apprehensive about that, because dodging Sasuke doesn't justify it, and merely jumping gets him caught up in the resulting turbulence and/or forest collapse anyway so that's not optimal either.
> 
> You really think it accomplishes _nothing_?



Deidara is a mid-kage level opponent, some forest collapsing is not going to break his composure or stop him from creating clay birds/bombs to counter attack and or escape when he canonically was blowing up bombs next to his person to escape Sasuke



FlamingRain said:


> That achievement is non-comparable to what is required of Deidara in this thread.
> 
> He did that largely by ducking beneath and behind tree-branches and bushes while running away, and all of that is going to disappear or get destroyed if Tsunade hits the ground and demolishes the general vicinity.
> 
> He hasn't the same options, so like I said, whole different ballgame.



Again when has demolishing the general vicinity help against any kage+ opponent. And if she demolishes the vicinity she's also going to loose track of Deidara in the mayhem.... which is the LAST thing she wants to do with that bastard

It's a two way street.

Nuke the forest with your punches (in which Diedara escapes in the mayhem like he did with Sasuke) or try to genuinely punch him with is never happening in 10,000 years



FlamingRain said:


> Firstly, where are you getting that Tsunade can't simply dodge those bombs?
> 
> Secondly, what he did to Sasuke was first leap back onto a tree-branch. What I'm proposing is that said tree-branch would just as soon be falling down in this scenario and the subsequent fall, which he didn't have to face against Sasuke, would leave him in quite a predicament.



Because she's not as fast as Sasuke?, who couldn't dodge them in CS2 either do to speed or AoE..... and if she's in jumping up in the air... GG

Which is where Deidara would adjust and Bunshin would come into play. When ever Tsuande is obliterating forest, she's creating chaos that Deidara can escape in (as their surrounding forest around them)



FlamingRain said:


> You mean _after getting hit once_?
> 
> Yeah I don't think that's going to work.



Because Naruto didn't use a Kage Bunshin feint to land that blow, something Tsunade doesn't have




FlamingRain said:


> That's assuming Deidara is far enough away that Katsuyu appearing doesn't squish him by virtue of her size.



Tsunade needs to bite her hand and slam it on the ground, any decently intelligent person with half a brain would know whats coming next especially when you consider the hype of the Sannin. Deidara gets out of dodge long before Tsunades hands hit the ground 

... assuming she even summons Katsuya as she NEVER has done it in 1 vs 1 match ups


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## Turrin (Sep 27, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> not gaara or alliance fodder, or oonaki


Against Gaara:


landed right in-front of him
dicked around with C1
came to the battle low on clay despite Sasori's warnings

Against Ambush Squad

dicked around with C1
stayed within short range

Against Onoki the battle started in the air, that's literally the only reason he didn't come down to the ground, and he dicked around with C1 until he was saved by Fat-Iwa-Nin from being instantly fodderized by Jinton, because fatty didn't want to see the turtle die.

So once again, it literally was _*every*_ battle.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 27, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Against Gaara:
> 
> 
> landed right in-front of him
> ...



Deidara needed to capture Gaara, that's why he was using C1 for a while.Against Ambush Squad, he didn't have any knowledge. I will give you the Onoki's point.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade rips off her own breasts and pegs them at Deidara like cannonballs.
> 
> The they regenerate so she can do it again.



I laughed out loud. 



Nikushimi said:


> C4 Karura erases Tsunade from the map.



> C4 de-constructs cells
> Byakugou regenerates cells

Tsunade should be able to survive it, considering how fast her regeneration is.​​


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## Turrin (Sep 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Deidara needed to capture Gaara, that's why he was using C1 for a while.


He didn't prepare enough clay to use anything other than C1 against Gaara, because in his stupidity  arrogance, he believed C1 would be enough. 



> Against Ambush Squad, he didn't have any knowledge.


If you don't have knowledge you should be even more cautious, instead he dicks around with C1. Literally every time. Whether he has knowledge, doesn't, or is even warned to take things more seriously, he dicks around with C1.


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## Hachibi (Sep 27, 2014)

Turrin said:


> He didn't prepare enough clay to use anything other than C1 against Gaara, because in his stupidity  arrogance, he believed C1 would be enough.



He had already prepped C3 in case thing turn bad, he was sure of himself.



> If you don't have knowledge you should be even more cautious, instead he dicks around with C1. Literally every time. Whether he has knowledge, doesn't, or is even warned to take things more seriously, he dicks around with C1.



He didn't dick around with Hebi Sasuke


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## Veo (Sep 27, 2014)

Horrible match up for Tsunade. Enemies with so much mobility are a nightmare for a pure CQC fighter. If Deidara could not fly, he'd lose, but once he goes airborne it's a lost cause for the hokage. Tsunade can last long thanks to her insane regeneration and Katsuyu but she has no easy means to reach a flying Deidara.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 27, 2014)

Just because her answers aren't easy don't mean she doesn't have them.



Joakim3 said:


> Faster than Sasuke...... who has _consistently_ been stated as fast by multiple fast people... Deidara, V1 Ei, Madara, Mifune, Killer B etc..



I'm pretty sure Deidara's the only one out of those people who actually called Sasuke fast.



> You still need to be fast enough to execute and exploit said skill... Itachi did that against two seasoned Sharingan users, with a sick body...



Speed became unimportant the moment Kakashi's uppercut left him airborne. Itachi went and capitalized on an opening that the Sharingan could do nothing about, _and then he missed the punch thrown when Kakashi was actually in a position to dodge_, only catching him from the back of his head where the Sharingan itself can't see in the first place.

So if you look closely the "seasoned Sharingan user" aspect is all but irrelevant in that example. Speed was not the reason behind any of that like you're trying to pretend it is. And again, that Itachi was not as sick as the one that was pressured by Sasuke.



> Prime example... Base Lee & Kimimaro have more skill in CqC than Itachi, but they lack the speed to hit the man



Maybe if you make Taijutsu some turn-based Pokmon-esque game, but that's not what it is.

So no.



> Um yes.... Deidara reacted and dodged



From a rather sizable distance...and just barely...



> an opponent that could tango with Itachi, V1 Ei & Kakashi, something speed wise Tsunade does not compare to



All Sasuke did with Ay was react to V1, which is also something Tsunade could do _(1)_. She noticed Ay taking action and started moving in response; there's also the feat of kicking beneath Madara's attempted guard and intercepting his Katon flurry to add to that.

Do we really need to clarify that Tsunade is not a slug and that she just summons them or something?

Kakashi and Itachi are not massively faster than she is. Faster maybe, but not nearly so much as to warrant the claim that Tsunade simply can't keep up with them, and then... Sasuke is significantly faster than Deidara himself anyway _which is why he opted for the C2 dragon_...now, where did you think you were going with this again?



> Sure she has AoE but again, Deidara can out run her.



Outrunning Tsunade (which is questionable considering Tsunade's ability to catch back up to flying Ohnoki in order to deliver a two/three-pronged attack against Susano'o) does not equate to outrunning Tsunade _and_ the subsequent devastation of her strikes.



> Um he most certainly did blitz her when he appeared in front of her face and kicked her into the river, again and thats assuming he wasn't holding back like Kisame as not to draw reinforcements.



He didn't "appear in front of her face". They never moved, that's just the position they were left in after the Genjutsu was dispelled and she still reacted to his thrown strikes. The only thing she (and anybody else) had a problem with was his Jutsu execution speed.

And just to clear this up, Itachi wanted Kisame to hold back on the _scale_ of his techniques. Obviously everybody and their grandmother is going to notice if the village suddenly floods over, but Itachi's _speed_ carries with it _no increased risk whatsoever_ of drawing more attention to their party. If anything it decreases said risk, and he didn't mind knocking the Jōnin out as evidenced by him making Kakashi eat a Tsukuyomi; therefore, he had no incentive to withhold his speed as the kick was not going to be fatal if it had landed.

So...again...Itachi comically out-dancing Tsunade is straight up silly.

You're overestimating the difference in and importance of speed here.



> Thats fine and all but multiple people from Orchimaru, Kabuto & Ei have stated that her Taijutsu has gotten worse over the years...



None of them have stated any such thing. _*Ever.*_

Even if they had, context is everything.

If Orochimaru and Kabuto had said anything it would only have applied to her extremely rusty state, and not her current form which has gotten back into practice.

If you're referring to Ay's comment against Susano'o, it only pertains to a Tsunade who was beginning to tire deciding to start abusing Byakugō in order to get through to her clones. That's why he explicitly brings up that she'd soon have no Chakra left if she kept doing that.

Neither changes the fact that she was still assigned a maximal 5 out of 5 in Taijutsu skill.



> The speed disparity is _that_ big



If it is, it hasn't been backed up thus far.



> Which takes almost no time when he crafter and molded C2 within 3 panels. Deidara was able to take to giant Shuriken out of his arms, mold, create & hop on a bird before C2 hit the ground after Sasuke cut its wing, he's plenty capable of making a bird fast enough....



*Points out that panels are not fixated periods of time.*
*Points out that if Joakim wants to play the panels game terrain devastation has always occurs within a single panel so Deidara's still screwed up.*
*Points out that Deidara's conjuring up that bird probably didn't even require him to outpace terminal velocity, and is not necessarily faster than the explosion Tsunade can cause.*
*Points out this still has nothing whatsoever to do with "craftiness" in particular.*
*Sits back and enjoys glass of lols.*



> Deidara was escaping explosions/collateral damage when he was nuking acre's of forest when he had to detonate bombs at point blank to prevent Sasuke from cutting his head off



_He used his own explosion_, and he used it _specifically for the purpose of propelling himself away from Sasuke._

What Tsunade does is out of his control, so it isn't analogous.



> Deidara is a mid-kage level opponent, some forest collapsing is not going to break his composure or stop him from creating clay birds/bombs to counter attack and or escape when he canonically was blowing up bombs next to his person to escape Sasuke



So are Kakashi, Gai, and Naruto not Kage level opponents now?

Both were canonically impeded by their environment collapsing around them. If Deidara's in the trees he's in an even worse position and underground even worse still.



> Again when has demolishing the general vicinity help against any kage+ opponent.



Click on the fourth and fifth links in my initial post again please. 

I am not pulling this out of fanfiction land, where you get your "it won't work cuz Kage-level" excuse from.



> Because she's not as fast as Sasuke?, who couldn't dodge them in CS2 either do to speed or AoE..... and if she's in jumping up in the air... GG
> 
> Which is where Deidara would adjust and Bunshin would come into play. When ever Tsuande is obliterating forest, she's creating chaos that Deidara can escape in (as their surrounding forest around them)



I'm talking about the very opening stages of the fight. C2 only appeared after the C2 dragon did and Deidara took to the skies, which was well after the whole deal with retreating to the tree branch and all that jazz.

I'm not claiming Tsunade goes jumping after that thing...not yet at least; we should only be discussing C1 at this point.

My argument is that Deidara's attempt to escape will be disrupted by the obliteration...toppling those trees isn't necessarily going to break LoS. The point of devastating the terrain is for it to change to _her own advantage_ not similarly hinder her own progression in the same light it does Deidara's. She has a measure of control over her own impacts and the resultant collateral damage they cause, and with her strength and sturdiness she can afford to make a beeline at him through the any of the ensuing chaos herself while Deidara is disoriented.



> Because Naruto didn't use a Kage Bunshin feint to land that blow, something Tsunade doesn't have



No, _he didn't_. Bro, there were 3 clones next to Gaara before he got hit _(2)_. The next time their position is shown there are only 2 of them _(3)_.

The one that hit Deidara being the real one is evidenced by it being the one to transform into Kn1 and then Kn2.

I'll let you figure out the rest.



> Deidara gets out of dodge long before Tsunades hands hit the ground



Summoning is a hasty process, and how does he know the size of the incoming summoning in order to know what "get out of dodge" requires of him to begin with?



> ... assuming she even summons Katsuya as she NEVER has done it in 1 vs 1 match ups



I find it so strange when people want to insist that it's out-of-character for the woman most famous as _the Slug Princess_ to summon her slugs.

When she first summoned Katsuyu against Orochimaru Kabuto was already lying in the dirt because of the Rasengan. I think that counts as an example of a 1 on 1 matchup summon, as far as intentions are concerned.


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## Turrin (Sep 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> He had already prepped C3 in case thing turn bad, he was sure of himself.


And he did not prepare himself anymore than that. He did not have C2 or C4, and even had a low amount of C1. And yes he was arrogantly sure of himself, but was mistaken, considering if Gaara was going for the kill he would have been fodderized, likewise if Gaara did not protect Sunagakuru he also would have been fodderized.



> He didn't dick around with Hebi Sasuke


Yes he did, he landed right next to him and dick around with C1


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## Zyrax (Sep 27, 2014)

C4 Jutsu GG


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## Hachibi (Sep 27, 2014)

Turrin said:


> And he did not prepare himself anymore than that. He did not have C2 or C4, and even had a low amount of C1.



C4 is a killing technique and C2 is less pratical than C1 Bird since it's larger and it's nuke can kill Gaara.



> And yes he was arrogantly sure of himself, but was mistaken, considering if Gaara was going for the kill he would have been fodderized, likewise if Gaara did not protect Sunagakuru he also would have been fodderized.



Both were near-equal before Deidara lost his arm, so how would he fodderize someone who stallmated him in the same mindset? And tehy both had a field advantage: Gaara had massive sand whilde Deidara can aim for the village, forcing Gaara to protect it.



> Yes he did, he landed right next to him and dick around with C1



That's because he thought Sasuke was dead and he used both of his clay bird.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 27, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> > C4 de-constructs cells
> > Byakugou regenerates cells
> 
> Tsunade should be able to survive it, considering how fast her regeneration is.



C4 Karura appears to disintegrate the body faster than Byakugou regenerates it, and the damage is far more thorough all at once than anything else Tsunade had to recover from.



DaVizWiz said:


> He reacted 2/3rds of the way, then Sasuke went after Obito. If he had continued on after Deidara he'd of been bisected.



Then there's literally no logical reason why Sasuke couldn't have simply blitzed Deidara immediately following that.

Yet he couldn't.



> No, according to Kishimoto he is. I didn't write the manga, I simply interpreted it.



You're interpretation is laughably wrong.



> Deidara is in no way shape or form on Hebi Sasuke's speed level. He canonically admitted Sasuke was "definitely too fast."



This is true, but it's also like calling Bruce Lee a pussy because he wouldn't be able to cut it in the ring with Mike Tyson. Hebi Sasuke is not a low-hanging fruit.



> 20m is nothing, it's 65 feet.



That's like a fifth of a fucking football field, and Tsunade isn't someone with any ranged Jutsu.



> I don't see how he creates a clay bird and boards it before he's hit by her



The same way he dodged Sasori's tail stab, Gaara's sand, Sasuke's slash, the multiple attempted blitzes by Team Gai, etc.



> when he fails to react to a 3-sequence blitz by Sai that warranted drawing and forming an ink bird, flying behind him, drawing and forming two ink men, then hitting him- all whilst in plain sight on a clay bird.



Unless Sai is monstrously faster than Sasuke, then this is what we call "jobbing"/"an outlier."



> To suggest Tsunade is unable to simply put a finger on him when Sai did that to him while on a clay bird is pretty ridiculous.



Sai performed all of that evidently faster than Sasuke was able to swing a sword.

Tsunade isn't faster than Sasuke, so I'd say you have your scaling backwards (if I didn't honestly believe the feat was complete disregardable bullshit and a product of Kishimoto's not caring).



> As worthless of an argument as suggesting Deidara didn't get blitzed by Sai.



Prove Tsunade is faster than Sai. ck


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## Turrin (Sep 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> C4 is a killing technique and C2 is less pratical than C1 Bird since it's larger and it's nuke can kill Gaara.


Regardless of whether that's true or not, there is no reason to go into that, because that wasn't Deidara's reasoning. His reasoning simply was that even low on clay Gaara was not threat to him, which was a stupid move born out of arrogance.



> oth were near-equal before Deidara lost his arm, so how would he fodderize someone who stallmated him in the same mindset?


Let's say Gaara could have only killed him at the moment he crushed his arm. At that point Deidara hasn't even scratched Gaara and Gaara still had a ton of stamina left. In my book if one character can kill another with no injury or great stamina drain, that is a low-diff to stomp win.



> And tehy both had a field advantage: Gaara had massive sand whilde Deidara can aim for the village, forcing Gaara to protect i


Deidara' field advantage was greater tho. And really field advantage shouldn't matter, because Deidara knew he was going into enemy territory. He also admits that he was shocked Gaara decided to save the village, which means he wasn't counting on the field to favor him ether. Yet he still decided to dick around with C1 and come low on clay. 



> That's because he thought Sasuke was dead and he used both of his clay bird.


Even if that was Deidara's mind-set, which I doubt because it's just the way he's acted every time, that is once again underestimating his enemy out of arrogance. Deidara knew this was the guy who defeated a legendary Sannin, and still dicked around. Why exactly would he not than dick around against a Legendary Sannin?


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## FlamingRain (Sep 27, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Prove Tsunade is faster than Sai.



Tsunade Jr. already blitzed him. ck


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## LostSelf (Sep 28, 2014)

It is still a BS feat (To sad i say this because i made a thread about his speed a long time ago).

And even if it isn't, this means that angered Sai is faster than Sasuke and Gai. Not that Deidara is slow as fuck because he already dodged faster opponents before.

I still don't understand how people get to the conclusion that he is slow using that feat.


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Regardless of whether that's true or not, there is no reason to go into that, because that wasn't Deidara's reasoning. His reasoning simply was that even low on clay Gaara was not threat to him, which was a stupid move born out of arrogance.
> 
> 
> Let's say Gaara could have only killed him at the moment he crushed his arm. At that point Deidara hasn't even scratched Gaara and Gaara still had a ton of stamina left. In my book if one character can kill another with no injury or great stamina drain, that is a low-diff to stomp win.
> ...



-Agree

-They both had problem hitting each others, how is that a low-diff? 

-The quantity of sand Gaara can create is greater than Deidara's nuke's AoE and Deidara took advantage of Gaara's lack of attention.

-Deidara also stated that he would kill Orochimaru, and him and Sasuke talked before the latter's blitz attemp.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 28, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> C4 Karura appears to disintegrate the body faster than Byakugou regenerates it, and the damage is far more thorough all at once than anything else Tsunade had to recover from.



No it doesn't. C4 is definitely fast but Byakugou is equally so. The giant hole that appeared in her body from swords impaling her was _gone_ within seconds of Tsunade _pulling it out of her abdomen_. 

The burn marks on her arms are healed as soon as they appear. _[1]_

C4 doesn't fully disintegrate even small animals _instantly_ _[2]_ It takes several pages before Sasuke gets fully vaporised too.

Byakugou will struggle but it's surely capable of keeping up. The question is whether or not Tsunade would have enough chakra in her seal to regenerate such constant damage, but that all depends on how much she's stored up.​​


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## LostSelf (Sep 28, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> No it doesn't. C4 is definitely fast but Byakugou is equally so. The giant hole that appeared in her body from swords impaling her was _gone_ within seconds of Tsunade _pulling it out of her abdomen_.
> 
> The burn marks on her arms are healed as soon as they appear. _[1]_
> 
> ...



There's a notable difference with this. Counting panels, _Byakugo_ took more time healing that hole than _C4_ disintegrating Sasuke. It took 11 panels counting since Tsunade pulled the sword outside of her body to the time her hole was shown healing._ C4 Garuda_ took 5 panels to disintegrate Sasuke.

That is panel wise. Panels doesn't indicate an exact amount of time, and the animals were drawn like that to show the effect of the jutsu. Going by what happened. Tsunade had time to pull her sword out, swing it to attack Madara, Madara block, and send her flying and still when the kages looked surprised and she stood up, _Byakugo_ was still healing.

Sasuke only had time to say three words.

And the difference becomes a lot bigger when you see that _C4_ dissintegrated an entire body faster than what _Byakugo_ could heal a wound both panel-wise and time-wise..


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## Turrin (Sep 28, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> -They both had problem hitting each others, how is that a low-diff?


Gaara tore off Deidara's arm a few pages into that battle (could have killed him there if he wanted to). Deidara couldn't hit Gaara at all.



> The quantity of sand Gaara can create is greater than Deidara's nuke's AoE and Deidara took advantage of Gaara's lack of attention.


Look at it this way. Typically Gaara has more Sand than just his Gourd Sand because even back in P1 he could quickly grind a massive amount as we saw against Kimi. However saving the village required all of Gaara's extra sand leaving him with just his gourd sand; not to mention the chakra toll it took to block C3. 

Basically the battlefield gave Gaara a-lot of sand, but it also took it away from him as well as a large chunk of his stamina. So in the end the battlefield disadvantage him more than advantaged him, because in a nuetral battlefield he'd have at least as much spare sand as he did against Kimi and he wouldn't have to give up that portion of stamina. 



> Deidara also stated that he would kill Orochimaru, and him and Sasuke talked before the latter's blitz attemp.


I'm not sure what Deidara's statement has to do with anything. Sasuke talking and Deidara not making use of that time to fly away and still deciding to dick around with C1 only further illustrates my point.

---------

Beyond this i'm kind of unsure how your expecting Deidara to act. My expectation is that he acts the same way he did in every fight, which is start low to the ground with C1



LostSelf said:


> There's a notable difference with this. Counting panels, _Byakugo_ took more time healing that hole than _C4_ disintegrating Sasuke.


Time is not the complete issue though as the bombs are no infinite. If Tsunade is hit by C4, she will be ingesting a set amount of the nano-bombs. So really the question should be set up as something similar to this:

Let's say Tsunade requires 1-Health to survive. She starts at 100-Health. Nano Bombs deplete 10-Health per second. Byakugo regens 5-Health per second. So it would take 21 seconds for C4 to do enough damage despite Byakugo-Regen to kill Tsunade. Now the question is did Tsunade ingest enough Nano-bombs for them to keep detonating for 21s straight. If the amount of bombs ingested runs out at 20s, Tsunade will still be able to heal herself back from the damage, as the damage dealt wasn't enough to drop her health to 0, before the bombs ran out.

Of course characters don't have health points and all that, but the principal remains the same. Byakugo doesn't need to heal all the damage that the bombs are doing it just needs to keep Tsunade alive long enough for the finite number of bombs she ingested to run out.

Also if we want to talk panels, it takes 2 Panels for Tsunade to heal all of the deep sword wounds Orochimaru dealt her, including the one that pierced right through her chest, after activating, not Byakugo, but just Gensis of Rebirth. So Tsunade's recover rate is far greater than she's given credit for here:
_[2]_


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Gaara tore off Deidara's arm a few pages into that battle (could have killed him there if he wanted to). Deidara couldn't hit Gaara at all.



Part of it was off-paneled.



> Look at it this way. Typically Gaara has more Sand than just his Gourd Sand because even back in P1 he could quickly grind a massive amount as we saw against Kimi. However saving the village required all of Gaara's extra sand leaving him with just his gourd sand; not to mention the chakra toll it took to block C3.
> 
> Basically the battlefield gave Gaara a-lot of sand, but it also took it away from him as well as a large chunk of his stamina. So in the end the battlefield disadvantage him more than advantaged him, because in a nuetral battlefield he'd have at least as much spare sand as he did against Kimi and he wouldn't have to give up that portion of stamina.



He can only grind sand if he's on the ground, while his fight against Deidara was in the air but I can see your point.



> I'm not sure what Deidara's statement has to do with anything. Sasuke talking and Deidara not making use of that time to fly away and still deciding to dick around with C1 only further illustrates my point.



He didn't use C1 to dick around but to keep up with Sasuke's movement.

--------------
I liked your Kirito ava better, since I think it reflect my emotion at all time


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## Turrin (Sep 28, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Part of it was off-paneled.


Sure, but the off paneled part could have favored anyone. Gaara could have had like 8 other chances to kill Deidara off panel, that he didn't take as he was trying to go for the capture. Or it could be an equal struggle. We don't know.

What we do know is Gaara had Deidara dead to rights, before Deidara even managed to scratch him.



> He can only grind sand if he's on the ground, while his fight against Deidara was in the air but I can see your point.


Gaara could have just sat back and turtled on the ground grinding until he was ready to chase Deidara. That's assuming Deidara even stayed high in the skies, which runs contrary to how he typically fights at the start of a match. 



> He didn't use C1 to dick around but to keep up with Sasuke's movement.


He only used C1 to evade Sasuke's movements once, and that was the time where he would have been killed if not for Tobi warning him. The other times like during the ambush and such he just used C1, because that's how he always starts a match.



> I liked your Kirito ava better, since I think it reflect my emotion at all time


I love sword art, but I like TOG better now. I suggest reading TOG, you won't be disappointed.


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Sure, but the off paneled part could have favored anyone. Gaara could have had like 8 other chances to kill Deidara off panel, that he didn't take as he was trying to go for the capture. Or it could be an equal struggle. We don't know.
> 
> What we do know is Gaara had Deidara dead to rights, before Deidara even managed to scratch him.



True, but Deidara managed to dodge all of Gaara's sand before that.



> Gaara could have just sat back and turtled on the ground grinding until he was ready to chase Deidara. That's assuming Deidara even stayed high in the skies, which runs contrary to how he typically fights at the start of a match.



Deidara stayed in the sky for most of his fight against Sasuke and when Naruto and Kakashi chased him.



> He only used C1 to evade Sasuke's movements once, and that was the time where he would have been killed if not for Tobi warning him. The other times like during the ambush and such he just used C1, because that's how he always starts a match.



Who would start non-bloodlusted with his strongest attack?



> I love sword art, but I like TOG better now. I suggest reading TOG, you won't be disappointed.



Gonna read it when I have times. Thanks


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## Turrin (Sep 28, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> True, but Deidara managed to dodge all of Gaara's sand before that.


Okay, but since when has dodging a few attacks automatically put the difficulty of a match above low-diff?



> Deidara stayed in the sky for most of his fight against Sasuke


Deidara took to the skies after he nearly died to Sasuke's blitz and was only saved by Tobi. If Tobi wasn't there the match would have ended before Deidara realized the necessity to take to the skies. And that's really the problem with Deidara, by the time he starts taking things seriously he's already given his enemy the chance to end him.



> and when Naruto and Kakashi chased him.


This is another example that only further illustrates my point. Deidara down 1-arm and even lower on clay decided to try and take on the Kyuubi's Jinchuuriki. And it's not like he stayed high in the sky against Naruto and Kakashi ether. He started the match in a cave a short distance away from Naruto & company. He than flew away, but he stayed within jumping range of Naruto and Kakashi



> Who would start non-bloodlusted with his strongest attack?


I don't think this matters much to my point. Because my point is very simply that I believe Deidara will start on the ground (or close to it) w/ C1, giving his enemies a chance to end him before he ups his game to higher Kibaku-Nendo levels and flies high into the skies; regardless of Deidara's reasoning.




> Gonna read it when I have times. Thanks


Cool the TOG sub-form needs more posters.


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## LostSelf (Sep 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Time is not the complete issue though as the bombs are no infinite. If Tsunade is hit by C4, she will be ingesting a set amount of the nano-bombs. So really the question should be set up as something similar to this:



They are not infinite. But the speed in wich the bombs operates are notably faster than the speed of byakugo, therefore heavy damage is still done.



> Let's say Tsunade requires 1-Health to survive. She starts at 100-Health. Nano Bombs deplete 10-Health per second. Byakugo regens 5-Health per second. So it would take 21 seconds for C4 to do enough damage despite Byakugo-Regen to kill Tsunade. Now the question is did Tsunade ingest enough Nano-bombs for them to keep detonating for 21s straight. If the amount of bombs ingested runs out at 20s, Tsunade will still be able to heal herself back from the damage, as the damage dealt wasn't enough to drop her health to 0, before the bombs ran out.
> 
> Of course characters don't have health points and all that, but the principal remains the same. Byakugo doesn't need to heal all the damage that the bombs are doing it just needs to keep Tsunade alive long enough for the finite number of bombs she ingested to run out.



Yeah, i use this example a lot when it comes to Byakugo. But considering that C4 has destroyed a complete body in way less time than Byakugo has healed a stab wound, then the speed of the Nano bombs in your example would be much greater and Byakugo would be outrunned.



> Also if we want to talk panels, it takes 2 Panels for Tsunade to heal all of the deep sword wounds Orochimaru dealt her, including the one that pierced right through her chest, after activating, not Byakugo, but just Gensis of Rebirth. So Tsunade's recover rate is far greater than she's given credit for here:
> [2]



This is not greater than what C4 has shown either way, 3 panels more to destroy a whole body, call it organs, bones, etc is still superior by a large margin than healing damages done with a thin sword. Also, panels doesn't mean X amount of time. I said that because GT used panels to say that C4 took too long to kill an animal. Byakugo is her best healing jutsu, and it has shown her limits with it. The first stab showed a way slower healing rate than the destructive rate of C4, even in a way smaller area.

And the next time we see her regenerating, she collapsed out-cold in the floor due to he heavy damage she suffered from two Susano'o blades in her body.

C4 would do more damage than that as well.


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Okay, but since when has dodging a few attacks automatically put the difficulty of a match above low-diff?



Low-diff is like a stomp, mid-diff is more accurate imo.



> Deidara took to the skies after he nearly died to Sasuke's blitz and was only saved by Tobi. If Tobi wasn't there the match would have ended before Deidara realized the necessity to take to the skies. And that's really the problem with Deidara, by the time he starts taking things seriously he's already given his enemy the chance to end him.



Sasuke wasn't going for the kill, so Deidara wouldn't be killed.



> This is another example that only further illustrates my point. Deidara down 1-arm and even lower on clay decided to try and take on the Kyuubi's Jinchuuriki. And it's not like he stayed high in the sky against Naruto and Kakashi ether. He started the match in a cave a short distance away from Naruto & company. He than flew away, but he stayed within jumping range of Naruto and Kakashi.



It's not like Naruto and Kakashi could get to him. The field stopped them form doing that.



> I don't think this matters much to my point. Because my point is very simply that I believe Deidara will start on the ground (or close to it) w/ C1, giving his enemies a chance to end him before he ups his game to higher Kibaku-Nendo levels and flies high into the skies; regardless of Deidara's reasoning.



Except he didn't start on the ground when he attacked Ambush Squad, Hebi Sasuke and fodder ninja sand.



> Cool the TOG sub-form needs more posters.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 28, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> There's a notable difference with this. Counting panels, _Byakugo_ took more time healing that hole than _C4_ disintegrating Sasuke. It took 11 panels counting since Tsunade pulled the sword outside of her body to the time her hole was shown healing._ C4 Garuda_ took 5 panels to disintegrate Sasuke.
> 
> That is panel wise. Panels doesn't indicate an exact amount of time, and the animals were drawn like that to show the effect of the jutsu. Going by what happened. Tsunade had time to pull her sword out, swing it to attack Madara, Madara block, and send her flying and still when the kages looked surprised and she stood up, _Byakugo_ was still healing.



Byakugou only started taking effect when the sword was removed. Once it was removed, she had time to swing it at Madara, he dodged and fired a Magatama at her. Considering how fast Madara is though, that is still only a few seconds worth of healing time. 



> Sasuke only had time to say three words.



It's important to note that that was a genjutsu, so Sasuke controlled what Deidara saw. He wasn't even trying to speak in any depth, because he made himself appear to be in complete shock, awe and agony. As far as the speed of the technique itself goes, I honestly don't think it's any faster.



> And the difference becomes a lot bigger when you see that _C4_ dissintegrated an entire body faster than what _Byakugo_ could heal a wound both panel-wise and time-wise..



Byakugou was only healing one wound, though. We've seen it heal multiple critical injuries all across Tsunade's body before and it did so equally as quickly.​​


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 28, 2014)

Tsunade gets masacred by C3 or C4. C4 should be banned for this to be a match.


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## Turrin (Sep 28, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Low-diff is like a stomp, mid-diff is more accurate imo.


I suppose it comes down to how you evaluate difficulty. Imo it comes down to this:

Stomp - Using very little chakra and weaker moves to annihilate the enemy
Low Diff - Using some chakra, but not a large amount, and not receiving much damage (or any)
Mid Diff - Using a good portion of ones chakra, and/or a decent amount of injuries, but nothing too drastic
High Diff - Using a large amount of a person chakra &/or receiving serious injuries
Extreme Diff - Using up most, if not all of ones chakra (or supply of weapons) &/or receiving near fatal injuries

If Gaara kills Deidara instead of grabbing his arm, to me that would place him at probably Low-Diff, as he used some of his chakra and received no damage from Deidara. 



> Sasuke wasn't going for the kill, so Deidara wouldn't be killed.


Which just means there was more advantages keeping Deidara alive there.



> It's not like Naruto and Kakashi could get to him. The field stopped them form doing that.


Naruto did get to him.



> Except he didn't start on the ground when he attacked Ambush Squad, Hebi Sasuke


Yes he did. 



> and fodder ninja sand.


He was actually trying to be stealth there, since he didn't want to end up with an entire village after him.

@LostSelf

Your using a Genjutsu to evaluate how quickly C4 disintegrates the enemy, which does not seem wise to me. Why not use the fact that it took 3 Panels to explode a small lizard or bird, which are smaller than the sum total of wounds that Tsunade's Gensis of Rebirth (not even Byakugo) healed within 2 Panels. Additionally even if we were to use the Genjutsu. Deidara starts detonating the bombs on pg7, and it's not until pg 10 that Sasuke crumbles away. And the damage that happens to Sasuke in each panel is not more than Gensis can heal, for example if you look at the first panel, Sasuke has holes in his arms formed, but they were not nearly as deep as the hole Ksunagi sword form on Tsunade, which was healed by Gensis in a single panel. So even based on the Genjutsu I don't see the rate of distegration being high enough to outpace Gensis, let alone Byakugo. Not that i'm necessarily advocating the use of panels to tell time, but if were going that route, it seems to me like Gensis is faster at creating cells than C4 destroys them, let alone Byakugo.


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I suppose it comes down to how you evaluate difficulty. Imo it comes down to this:
> 
> Stomp - Using very little chakra and weaker moves to annihilate the enemy
> Low Diff - Using some chakra, but not a large amount, and not receiving much damage (or any)
> ...



Well, it's based on opinion.



> Which just means there was more advantages keeping Deidara alive there.



True.



> Naruto did get to him.



After a long time and Deidara losing his arm.



> Yes he did.



Deidara began in his bird against Sasuke, just because he joined the ground right after doesn't mean the battle hadn't started. As for the Ambush Squad thing, he never quitted the bird along with Sasori until the very end.



> He was actually trying to be stealth there, since he didn't want to end up with an entire village after him.



True.

Funny thing is I didn't speak about the Onoki fight.


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 28, 2014)

Tsunade didn't even leave her post for Deidara what does that tell you


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Tsunade didn't even leave her post for Deidara what does that tell you



By this logic Edo Madara can solo Juubito since he just did nothing against him.


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 28, 2014)

Difference is Edo Madara didn't step to Juubito because he was prepping his jutsu , Tsunade didn't step to Deidara because he wasn't even worth her time like most of the pt II villains until Nagato came around , thats when Sannin levels started to go all out , before that they were letting pre Sage Mode Naruto take care of the enemies


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Difference is Edo Madara didn't step to Juubito because he was prepping his jutsu , Tsunade didn't step to Deidara because he wasn't even worth her time like most of the pt II villains until Nagato came around , thats when Sannin levels started to go all out , before that they were letting pre Sage Mode Naruto take care of the enemies



Madara didn't prepare shit.


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 28, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Madara didn't prepare shit.



Yes he did , soon as Obito took the ten tails he started to prepare the jutsu he used to take the ten tails from him , thats how he became the Jin


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yes he did , soon as Obito took the ten tails he started to prepare the jutsu he used to take the ten tails from him , thats how he became the Jin



Not at all, he was preparing Rinne Tensei until Obito became the Juubi Jin, then decided to fight Hashirama because he wanted to. It's only after Obito lost the Juubi and that Black Zetsu took control of him that he used a hand-seal.


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## Turrin (Sep 28, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Well, it's based on opinion.
> .


True 



> After a long time and Deidara losing his arm.


Yes, but Deidara is typically matched up against Ninja who are much stronger and more skillful than SPII-Naruto. This thread being an example in and off itself. 



> Deidara began in his bird against Sasuke, just because he joined the ground right after doesn't mean the battle hadn't started


Deidara ambushed him from the sky, but it was in the process of landing on the ground. So the moment the battle began Deidara was going to the ground.



> As for the Ambush Squad thing, he never quitted the bird along with Sasori until the very end.


But he was flying like 10inches off the ground. So to me there is really little difference there.


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## Hachibi (Sep 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yes, but Deidara is typically matched up against Ninja who are much stronger and more skillful than SPII-Naruto. This thread being an example in and off itself.



Naruto had help for Kakashi while he lacked ranged jutsu at the time.



> Deidara ambushed him from the sky, but it was in the process of landing on the ground. So the moment the battle began Deidara was going to the ground.



True.



> But he was flying like 10inches off the ground. So to me there is really little difference there.



Not really since they weren't many ranged ninja there bar Sai.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 28, 2014)

Tsunade= close range fighter
Deidara= long range fighter

Deidara's nukes can bypass Tsunade's regeneration, and the AOE of them is faster than she can dodge.

Deidara wins.


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## Turrin (Sep 28, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Naruto had help for Kakashi while he lacked ranged jutsu at the time.
> .


Yeah, which is why I don't think SPII-Naruto "level" Ninja can certainly defeat Deidara. However the fact that SPII-Naruto could jump up to the height Deidara is flying at shows that a-lot of techniques from various Ninja would still reach Deidara.



> Not really since they weren't many ranged ninja there bar Sai.


Not sure I follow. Deidara was close enough to the ground where Omoi who is the most CQC oriented Ninja there could attack him.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 28, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Tsunade didn't even leave her post for Deidara what does that tell you





How can you use this in a battle dome thread?


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## Bonly (Sep 28, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Tsunade didn't even leave her post for Deidara what does that tell you



It tells us nothing. Tsunade was never told Deidara attacked Suna nor did anyone in the ambush squad tell her about Deidara and Sasori. How would she even know about Deidara in any case to chose whether or not to leave her post to fight him? But you wanna use the fact that she didn't leave to assume he's not worth her time. Come on bruh


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## Turrin (Sep 28, 2014)

Bonly said:


> It tells us nothing. Tsunade was never told Deidara attacked Suna nor did anyone in the ambush squad tell her about Deidara and Sasori. How would she even know about Deidara in any case to chose whether or not to leave her post to fight him? But you wanna use the fact that she didn't leave to assume he's not worth her time. Come on bruh


Come on bruh is right. The idea that Team 7 and Team Gai did not give Tsunade a full report on what happened in Sungakuru, is too absurd to imagine. So Tsunade herself would know about Deidara and that he is an Akatsuki member. Beyond that the entire alliance was telepathically linked so it's extremely unlikely that HQ would not know about Deidara and how much of a threat he was. Even further Beyond that Onoki engaged Deidara as Tensei prior to that, so he knew that Deidara was among Kabuto's forces, and would have also briefed HQ on that. Even Further Further beyond that Ittan who knew of Deidara was telepathically linked to HQ, so he could have called for reinforcements if he felt a stronger force was necessary to win (which guess what, it wasn't as they beat Deidara, even w/ Deidara having back up).

The idea of Tsunade not coming out and therefore Deidara is inferior is a flawed premise. But what is not a flawed premises is that Deidara was clearly portrayed inferior to the top-dogs in the war. When some serious threat came out we saw the HQ reacting to it. Like with Gin/Kin, Edo-Kages, etc... And we saw a greater fighting force sent to deal with these characters; multi-division, special weapons, kages, Naruto, what have you. 

It is extremely clear from the reaction Deidara got versus other Tensei that Kishi blatantly considered him inferior Tensei like the Edo-Kages, Gin, Kin, etc... And since Kishi had the Kages mobilize against these upper-tier enemies instead of Deidara, it's also very clear that Kages are above Deidara. Not that it shouldn't be abundantly clear from other parts of the manga; like Tsunade, Gaara, and Onoki performing better in the war than Ei, who in turn fought a much stronger Sasuke than the one Deidara faced, and Deidara would have gone down to said weaker Sasuke's opening gambit, if not for Tobi saving his ass. Or the simple fact that Deidara was defeated by the ambush-squad even w/ Edo-Buffs and back up, while any of the Gokage would annihilate the ambush squad, and were in turn fighting enemies or had fought enemies that would annihilate the ambush-squad. Or the fact that Onoki would have annihilated Deidara when he encountered him in route to turtle island if not for Akatsuchi wishing to protect turtle island from being killed off by Jinton.


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## Bonly (Sep 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> A bunch of misunderstanding



You didn't it so I'll explain it a bit better for you. When I said "How would she even know about Deidara in any case to chose whether or not to leave her post to fight him?" I was referring to Tsunade knowing that Deidara would be in said places for a fight. As in how would Tsunade know Deidara was gonna be in Suna before she sent the others before hand? Or how would she know the ambush squad would face Deidara. I did not mean it as in 



> Shit nobody cares about



Not to sound like too much of a dick but I already told this before, I don't care about your opinion when it comes to Deidara. You've lied, used half truths and you're pretty much the IchLiebe of Deidara. Again not trying to be to much of a dick but you can take your understanding of Deidara and sling that to Rocky or someone who will put up with it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2014)

Lol as if Tsunade could leave her post and go after Deidara. 

She didn't leave her post for Itachi as well and sent a shitty chuunin squad after him. She has terrible judgement and certainly has a habit of underestimating her opponents.
Tsunade's behavior in no way is an indicaiton how strong someone is. Characters in this manga are susceptible of miscalculation/judgement. I hate to sound sexist but we know about Kishimoto's view of women. There is a reason why her life is full of regrets.


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## Turrin (Sep 29, 2014)

Bonly said:


> You didn't it so I'll explain it a bit better for you. When I said "How would she even know about Deidara in any case to chose whether or not to leave her post to fight him?" I was referring to Tsunade knowing that Deidara would be in said places for a fight. As in how would Tsunade know Deidara was gonna be in Suna before she sent the others before hand? Or how would she know the ambush squad would face Deidara. I did not mean it as in


She wouldn't but just like in the case of every other fight, once battle was joined she would know that Deidara was engaging the ambush-squad. Yet HQ sent no reinforcements, no alarm bells were raised, etc...



> You've lied, used half truths and you're pretty much the IchLiebe of Deidara. Again not trying to be to much of a dick but you can take your understanding of Deidara and sling that to Rocky or someone who will put up with it.


So basically you have no counter argument and are unwilling to accept reality, k, moving on.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 29, 2014)

Tsunade only willingly left her paper football match with Ei for Madara.  As well as Naruto and Bee, but that was because Ei ordered her to go as captain commander.  

Everyone below Madara is chunin level trash to her.  



It's not her fault if she forgets everyone is a pathetic non-Senju who couldn't bust mountains as a toddler.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 29, 2014)

Tsunade is a pretty good jumper though.

Link removed

I don't know it that's enough to catch Deidara.  His mount and bomb have some really good feats of flight.  She'd need a distraction to stand a decent chance of catching Deidara once he's airborn, though it is possible that she could reach him while he's taking off, or intercept him early into the air.  

She also has the option of using Katsuya as a footstool, or dropping it onto his head via food cart destroyer.  I favor her using strategies like that with the knowledge she has on Deidara from Kakashi and probably Onoki and the Alliance reports on Deidara and his airborn fighting style.  Though Deidara's explosions, even if not able to kill her, could repel her until he gainst height and distance.

After that it gets dicey, and any chance she has of winning drops dramatically.  Thrown items aren't going to hit a flier of Deidara's caliber, unless she swings Katsuya like a baseball bat as Flamingrain said, in which case that will work.


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## Bonly (Sep 29, 2014)

Turrin said:


> She wouldn't



Glad you agree.



> So basically you have no counter argument and are unwilling to accept reality, k, moving on.



If that helps you sleep better at night then sure


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## Turrin (Sep 29, 2014)

Bonly said:


> If that helps you sleep better at night then sure


Nah, i'm actually not that happy with the way Kishi depicted Deidara or most Akatsuki members strength-wise.


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lol as if Tsunade could leave her post and go after Deidara.
> 
> She didn't leave her post for Itachi as well and sent a shitty chuunin squad after him. She has terrible judgement and certainly has a habit of underestimating her opponents.
> Tsunade's behavior in no way is an indicaiton how strong someone is. Characters in this manga are susceptible of miscalculation/judgement. I hate to sound sexist but we know about Kishimoto's view of women. There is a reason why her life is full of regrets.




To be honest the squad she sent after Itachi would've given him trouble , especially with his illness , then we cant look at it like that because the writer has control , and the writer chose not to get the Sannin to involved until it was time to face the AL.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> To be honest the squad she sent after Itachi would've given him trouble , especially with his illness ,



No they wouldn't. Especially when you consider how easily pre Oro absorbtion Sasuke dealt with Yamato, Naruto and Sai.

They'd get fodderized under a second if Itachi decided to use his MS. I am not even counting in Kisame's assistance, which Konoha knew that Akatsuki moved in groups of two. Which also speaks volumes about how bad jugement that was. 



> then we cant look at it like that because the writer has control , and the writer chose not to get the Sannin to involved until it was time to face the AL.



Writer made Asuma think he could take on Itachi and Kisame.


I didn't understand what you meant by the sannin part.


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## Turrin (Sep 29, 2014)

Naruto + Sai + Yamato + Sakura + Kakashi + Kiba + Shino + Hinata would have beaten Itachi it's absurd to think otherwise. This was a force believed capable of capturing him alive not just defeat him.  Kakashi and Naruto alone would push Sick-Itachi to high diff, if he could even win at all.


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 29, 2014)

> No they wouldn't. Especially when you consider how easily pre Oro absorbtion Sasuke dealt with Yamato, Naruto and Sai.



Naruto was much weaker than he was after learning FRS, he went from Jounin level to low kage level .



> They'd get fodderized under a second if Itachi decided to use his MS. I am not even counting in Kisame's assistance, which Konoha knew that Akatsuki moved in groups of two. Which also speaks volumes about how bad jugement that was.



Did you not see Itachi's performance against Hebi Sasuke , MS was taking its toll on him and he was coughing up blood after every usage , this is not a prime , healthy Itachi , this was Itachi close to his death bed .






> Writer made Asuma think he could take on Itachi and Kisame.



Then Kakashi had to reinforce the notion that Itachi was not to be reckoned with , which let the reader know Itachi was out of Asuma's tier, he never did that with Tsunade and Deidara or any of the other mid tier atakuski.



> I didn't understand what you meant by the sannin part.



Meaning we didn't see Tsunade or Jiraiya didn't step into any battles with atakuski until it was time to face Nagato , before that they were content with letting Naruto and Kakashi and the rookies take them on , shit Tsunade was even ready to leave the village with Jiraiya to face Nagato.

These are things the reader is trying to tell you about how you compare different characters , along with feats , data stats , story structure , besides hypothetical battle scenarios theres not a single thing to lay your hat on , as it pertains to Deidara being stronger than Tsunade.


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## Hachibi (Sep 29, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Naruto + Sai + Yamato + Sakura + Kakashi + Kiba + Shino + Hinata would have beaten Itachi it's absurd to think otherwise. This was a force believed capable of capturing him alive not just defeat him.  Kakashi and Naruto alone would push Sick-Itachi to high diff, if he could even win at all.



Tell me how they can defeat Itachi. I'll wait.


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## Turrin (Sep 29, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Tell me how they can defeat Itachi. I'll wait.


Kakashi alone bests Itachi in everything short MS. Kakashi also can at least match Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu so long as his Kamui holds out, and since he has Sakura on his team to heal him he'll be able to use Kamui much more freely and she can even boost it (not as much as she did for Obito obviously, but for these purposes it's more than enough). So Sakura + Kakashi alone should be able to handle anything short of Susano'o. 

As far as Susano'o is concerned, Kakashi can still warp a hole in it for others to attack. Yamato can have use Brith of Trees to have Mokuton ensnare Itachi from bellow like how Gaara's sand counter Madara's Susano'o. Shino can harass with Bugs to each up the chakra construct. Naruto can wait for an opening to land FRS. And so on. There are tons of strategies to employ and they have the best strategist in the manga on their team via Kakashi. Plus Sick Itachi can use Susano'o long anyway. 

But on an even more base level Kakashi and Naruto are both at least low-Kage level at the time, Yamato is a top Jonin, and than the others are all Jonin with specialized abilities. Itachi can't handle that. No one short of Nagato level could


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## Hachibi (Sep 29, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi alone bests Itachi in everything short MS.



Even in Genjutsu?



> Kakashi also can at least match Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu so long as his Kamui holds
> out



Amat and Tsukuyomi are *far* more dangerous than a unmastered Kamui, Kakashi almost missed a dicking around Deidara.



> and since he has Sakura on his team to heal him he'll be able to use Kamui much more freely and she can even boost it (not as much as she did for Obito obviously, but for these purposes it's more than enough).



The boost are related to Byakugo, she was charging it at the time, so she can't boost him.



> So Sakura + Kakashi alone should be able to handle anything short of Susano'o.



Sakura is knocked out by genjutsu, she can't do anything against it.



> As far as Susano'o is concerned, Kakashi can still warp a hole in it for others to attack.



Only if Itachi dick around, which he never did.



> Yamato can have use Brith of Trees to have Mokuton ensnare Itachi from bellow like how Gaara's sand counter Madara's Susano'o.



It isn't gonna touch him if he's careful. The only reason the thing worked with Madara is because he has dicking around.



> Shino can harass with Bugs to each up the chakra construct.



Again, implying Itachi is just gonna do nothing.



> Naruto can wait for an opening to land FRS.



A incomplete FRS that he can't perfectly control, and which failed to hit Kakuzu the first time.




> There are tons of strategies to employ and they have the best strategist in the manga on their team via Kakashi.



Strategie can only get you so far when you lack the power to do any lasting damage. It's basically a way smaller scale version of Juubi vs Alliance, except "Juubi" has a brain.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Naruto was much weaker than he was after learning FRS, he went from Jounin level to low kage level .



And Sasuke wasn't even using 50% of his power.



> Did you not see Itachi's performance against Hebi Sasuke , MS was taking its toll on him and he was coughing up blood after every usage , this is not a prime , healthy Itachi , this was Itachi close to his death bed .


That doesn't change the fact that he can wipe out half the squad with a simple Amaterasu sweep, No one has the reactions or prior knowledge of the Jutsu. So they have no way to prevent getting oneshot, including Kakashi and Naruto.



> Then Kakashi had to reinforce the notion that Itachi was not to be reckoned with , which let the reader know Itachi was out of Asuma's tier, he never did that with Tsunade and Deidara or any of the other mid tier atakuski.


Because they actually had to fight him.

Capture squad never faced Itachi, so there was no reason to comment on how hard Itachi'd rape them obviously. Although I don't think anyone would have any doubt that he would, after seeing his MS arsenal, and learning that he was holding back against Sasuke the whole time.



> Meaning we didn't see Tsunade or Jiraiya didn't step into any battles with atakuski until it was time to face Nagato , before that they were content with letting Naruto and Kakashi and the rookies take them on , shit Tsunade was even ready to leave the village with Jiraiya to face Nagato.
> 
> These are things the reader is trying to tell you about how you compare different characters , along with feats , data stats , story structure , besides hypothetical battle scenarios theres not a single thing to lay your hat on , as it pertains to Deidara being stronger than Tsunade.


Tsunade had already went all out in part 1 against Kabuto & Orochimaru.

Jiraiya tried to duke it out with Itachi.

Also, back to Asuma example. Characters can misjudge situations. I wouldn't blame Tsunade or Kakashi because they actually had no idea Itachi was capable of doing. Tsuande had a really bad judgement call thats all.



Turrin said:


> Naruto + Sai + Yamato + Sakura + Kakashi + Kiba + Shino + Hinata would have beaten Itachi it's absurd to think otherwise.


You don't know what absurd means. 
Stating A and Hachibee having comparable speed is absurd for example. 



> This was a force believed capable of capturing him alive not just defeat him.


Characters have made misjudgements before. No one in that squad  had any idea what Itachi was capable of doing. They knew about Tsukiyomi and they knew he had Amaterasu, but never seen it in action. They didn't even know Susano'o existed and Susano'o is ridicilously powerful for a midway part 2 tier battle. 



> Kakashi and Naruto alone would push Sick-Itachi to high diff, if he could even win at all.



A serious Itachi'd low dif that shit too damn hard. Both of them would get oneshot by Amaterasu or Susano'O.


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## Turrin (Sep 29, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Even in Genjutsu?


I meant overall. Itachi is better in Genjutsu of course, but Kakashi has a MS, so really doubt he's going to be done in by an Three-Tome Illusions.



> mat and Tsukuyomi are far more dangerous than a unmastered Kamui, Kakashi almost missed a dicking around Deidara.


That was SPIII-Kakashi. Were talking about Uchiha-Bros Kakashi, whch is basically Pain-Arc Kakashi, who was able to hit a nail blasted at him with ST.



> The boost are related to Byakugo, she was charging it at the time, so she can't boost him.


The Boost aren't related to Byakugo. It's transfering chakra via the Shosen Technique. W/o Byakugo she can't boost him as much but she can still boost him. Just like She and other medical Ninja's Boosted the Ranton users against Juubi despite none of them having Byakugo.



> Sakura is knocked out by genjutsu, she can't do anything against it.


She can avoid eye-contact, while Kakashi engages Itach, and just stand by to heal or boost him when necessary.



> Only if Itachi dick around, which he never did.


I'm not sure what dicking around has to do with this. Kakashi's Kamui should be able to create a whole in Susano'o, if not outright warp Itachi.



> It isn't gonna touch him if he's careful. The only reason the thing worked with Madara is because he has dicking around.


Madara dicking around is still way above Itachi. If Itachi has to deal with Kakashi, Naruto, Sai, Sakura, Hinata, Kiba, and Shino, I find it hard to imagine he's able to also perfectly dodge birth of trees.



> Again, implying Itachi is just gonna do nothing.


That's not what I was implying at all. Itachi can do a-lot of things, but he is spread too thin considering the amount of enemies he'll be facing here. If he focuses on dealing with Shino's Bugs, Yamato's Mokuton will get him. If he focuses on dealing with Shino's Bugs and still can deal with Mokuton, than Kamui will get him. And so on.



> A incomplete FRS that he can't perfectly control, and which failed to hit Kakuzu the first time.


He learned how to time it properly in the Kakuzu fight



> Strategie can only get you so far when you lack the power to do any lasting damage. It's basically a way smaller scale version of Juubi vs Alliance, except "Juubi" has a brain.


The power difference is no where near as vast as in the scenario your citing and the alliance was winning against Juubi anyway until it transformed to it's second stage.


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## Hachibi (Sep 30, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I meant overall. Itachi is better in Genjutsu of course, but Kakashi has a MS, so really doubt he's going to be done in by an Three-Tome Illusions.



Never said he's going down by a normal genjutsu, he's basically the only true threat in the fight. He's going down by MS technique he doesn't know about.



> That was SPIII-Kakashi. Were talking about Uchiha-Bros Kakashi, whch is basically Pain-Arc Kakashi, who was able to hit a nail blasted at him with ST.



There is no such thing as Part III Kakashi, and there is no proof that Kakashi had the same mastery as his Pain-arc self, and even if it was the case, he never started with Kamui.



> The Boost aren't related to Byakugo. It's transfering chakra via the Shosen Technique. W/o Byakugo she can't boost him as much but she can still boost him. Just like She and other medical Ninja's Boosted the Ranton users against Juubi despite none of them having Byakugo.



Oh, in this case, Itachi has just to interrupt the transfert of chakra, and the fact that there is alot of member in the team would mean friendly fire.



> She can avoid eye-contact, while Kakashi engages Itach, and just stand by to heal or boost him when necessary.



As far as we know this version of Sakura is basically on the same level as her Gaara-arc self right? Then she get Finger Genjutsu'd.



> I'm not sure what dicking around has to do with this. Kakashi's Kamui should be able to create a whole in Susano'o, if not outright warp Itachi.



Kakashi will need to warp Susano before wraping Itachi, and he didn't begin with that against Pain.



> Madara dicking around is still way above Itachi. If Itachi has to deal with Kakashi, Naruto, Sai, Sakura, Hinata, Kiba, and Shino, I find it hard to imagine he's able to also perfectly dodge birth of trees.



Yamato's Jikukai Koutan is *far* below Madara's and Hashirama's. And I don't think you understand the difference between dicking around and being careful.



> That's not what I was implying at all. Itachi can do a-lot of things, but he is spread too thin considering the amount of enemies he'll be facing here. If he focuses on dealing with Shino's Bugs, Yamato's Mokuton will get him. If he focuses on dealing with Shino's Bugs and still can deal with Mokuton, than Kamui will get him. And so on.



The only dangerous bug Shino has that I can remember is the one against the Juubling, and it needed physical contact. And Yamato's Mokuton get burned by Itachi's Katon.



> He learned how to time it properly in the Kakuzu fight



Doesn't change anything. If Itachi see Naruto with a Rasenshuriken he's gonna attack him.



> The power difference is no where near as vast as in the scenario your citing and the alliance was winning against Juubi anyway until it transformed to it's second stage.



The only reason the alliance was winning was because Juubi was focused on its evolution and, later, Naruto's Kyuubi Cloak.


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## JuicyG (Sep 30, 2014)

Not sure how a Deidara v Tsunade thread turns into Turrin v Hachibi in a Itachi against Kakashi contest


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## Turrin (Sep 30, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Never said he's going down by a normal genjutsu, he's basically the only true threat in the fight. He's going down by MS technique he doesn't know about.
> .


So Susano'o, like I said?



> There is no such thing as Part III Kakashi, and there is no proof that Kakashi had the same mastery as his Pain-arc self, and even if it was the case, he never started with Kamui.


- I meant SPII-Kakashi. 
- When was it indicated Kakashi trained Kamui between those 2 Arcs?
- When did I say he'd start with Kamui?



> Oh, in this case, Itachi has just to interrupt the transfert of chakra,


He'd have his hands full with other members of the team, summons, and bushin.



> and the fact that there is alot of member in the team would mean friendly fire.


Pretty sure Kakashi can coordinate the team to avoid friendly fire. In-fact I don't think Tsunade, Jiriaya, and Kakashi would have even formed this team if friendly fire was going to be some devastating issue.



> As far as we know this version of Sakura is basically on the same level as her Gaara-arc self right? Then she get Finger Genjutsu'd.


Even though she has knowledge of Finger-Genjutsu. I doubt it.



> Kakashi will need to warp Susano before wraping Itachi, and he didn't begin with that against Pain.


Why will he need to warp Susano'o first?



> Yamato's Jikukai Koutan is far below Madara's and Hashirama's.


When was I comparing them?



> And I don't think you understand the difference between dicking around and being careful.


I understand it just fine. it's just that Madara is that far above Itachi in strength.



> The only dangerous bug Shino has that I can remember is the one against the Juubling, and it needed physical contact.


Shino's Bugs eat chakra, Susano'o is a chakra construct.



> And Yamato's Mokuton get burned by Itachi's Katon.


I very much doubt Itachi's Katon can burn down Yamato's Mokuton.



> Doesn't change anything. If Itachi see Naruto with a Rasenshuriken he's gonna attack him.


And while he's focusing on Naruto he gets done in by other members of the Team or by Naruto himself using a KB-Feint.



> The only reason the alliance was winning was because Juubi was focused on its evolution and, later, Naruto's Kyuubi Cloak.


And once again the difference in strength was vast there. Here Itachi is actually at the disadvantage strength wise considering how many shinobi he's up against.


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## Hachibi (Oct 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So Susano'o, like I said?



Or Amaterasu.



> - When was it indicated Kakashi trained Kamui between those 2 Arcs?
> - When did I say he'd start with Kamui?



-It's you who need to prove it, not me.
-You sounded like he's just gonna use it in the beginning of the fight.



> He'd have his hands full with other members of the team, summons, and bushin.



Half of the team are just here to serve as distraction, which isn't very useful with Sharingan.



> Pretty sure Kakashi can coordinate the team to avoid friendly fire. In-fact I don't think Tsunade, Jiriaya, and Kakashi would have even formed this team if friendly fire was going to be some devastating issue.



It's not because the risk aren't enormous that it isn't here.



> Even though she has knowledge of Finger-Genjutsu. I doubt it.



Form a clone that has 30% of Itachi's power. There is opponent that get caught in genjutsu even tho they know genjutsu is dangerous like Deidara, Kakashi or Orochimaru.



> Why will he need to warp Susano'o first?



Because it protect Itachi. That's why he couldn't warp both the nail and Pain.



> When was I comparing them?



You basically give Yamato's Mokuton feat of resisting fire, which only Hashi's and Mad's has.



> I understand it just fine. it's just that Madara is that far above Itachi in strength.



Strenght doesn't change that. Tobirama managed to almost stab a SM Rinnegan Madara who enjoyed (re)capturing the Bijuus



> Shino's Bugs eat chakra, Susano'o is a chakra construct.



It still need physical contact with Susano, which a careful Itachi isn't gonna let without attacking him.



> I very much doubt Itachi's Katon can burn down Yamato's Mokuton.



Considering it's heat hurted (or at the very least, irritated) Samehada, it most likely will.



> And while he's focusing on Naruto he gets done in by other members of the Team or by Naruto himself using a KB-Feint.



Except that Itachi can use Bunshin too and that some of the member on the team doesn't have experience against the sharingan.



> And once again the difference in strength was vast there. Here Itachi is actually at the disadvantage strength wise considering how many shinobi he's up against.



Quality > Quantity. Only Kakashi is really a threat to him. Of course, you could say that Naruto is one too once he get past KN1, but then he's gonna attack everyone.

The funny thing is that I'm not including Kisame, who is most of time with Itachi, and Team Hebi who can join the fight and turn it into a Triple Thread.


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## Turrin (Oct 1, 2014)

@Hachibi

I'm going to try and put this to you another way. I agree that Itachi can handle all of this team's abilities individually the problem is that I struggle to see how he can handle them collectively. This isn't going to be like an RPG, where Yamato attacks, Itachi get the oppertunity to counter, than Kiba attacks, Itachi get s chance to counter, and so on. It's going to be Kiba + Hinata, + Shino + Naruto + Yamato + Kakashi + Sakura + Sai all attacking him at once. 

Itachi doesn't have to just be able to counter Mokuton, but he also needs to be able to counter every other technique coming his way at the same time. How would Itachi counter Mokuton + Rarikiri + Rasengan + Twin-Lion Fist + 2-Headed Dog + Exploding Ink Creations + Chakra Eating Bugs + Okasho, all at once. Susano'o will literally be his only options within the first minute or so of the match, because the number of attacks are too numerous and diverse for him to be able to counter every single one at the same time. But even with Susano'o, Itachi can't hold it long, because of his low chakra supply compounded with his stamina issues, And while that may protect him from some of the lower end attacks this team is capable off, he still needs to worry about things like Kamui, FRS, Shino's Bugs, and Yamato's Mokuton (any one of them being charged up by Sakura, half of which he doesn't even have knowledge of. And even if somehow all of this fails to overcome Susano'o, while Itachi could kill a few members of the team before Susano'o runs out, the chance of him being able to wipe out the whole team before he's completely exhausted, are slim to none, with the number of defensive combinations the team is capable off and the short time-span in which he can actually use Susano'o; Doton Defenses, LOS Blocking, Boss Summons, Bushin-Spam, etc...

And it's all well and good to say someone may be hit by Amaterasu since the team lacks some knowledge on it, but even assuming Kakashi couldn't Kamui it away and than Sakura heal them up, once Itachi uses 1 MS technique his vision is so fucked that he couldn't evade Sasuke's Shuriken trap, so there is no way he's evading the attacks of 7 other individuals right after that, and he pretty much is going to go down right there.


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## Hachibi (Oct 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Hachibi
> 
> I'm going to try and put this to you another way. I agree that Itachi can handle all of this team's abilities individually the problem is that I struggle to see how he can handle them collectively. This isn't going to be like an RPG, where Yamato attacks, Itachi get the oppertunity to counter, than Kiba attacks, Itachi get s chance to counter, and so on. It's going to be Kiba + Hinata, + Shino + Naruto + Yamato + Kakashi + Sakura + Sai all attacking him at once.
> 
> ...



Itachi could easily dodge Sasuke's Shuriken Trap like Zetsu stated, he just didn't want to.
4 of the member on the Team never faced anyone with a great mastery of genjutsu like Itachi, so if they (Hinata, Shino, Sai and Kiba) make eye contact with Itachi it's GG.
Kakashi can only hold off Itachi, he can't win against him without Kamui, and against Itachi he might either be forced to see Itachi's eyes or he get Amat'd, which he doesn't have knowledge on.

Seeing Kakashi and co knocked out, Naruto will just go KN3 and attack his teammate along with Itachi, which will force Yamato to stop him and Itachi will take this opportunity to finish off Sakura along with the genjutsu'd teammate. Sakura can't do much to him, so she get burned along with everyone else. Then it's just Yamato and a exaustled Naruto vs a midly- exausted Itachi and Itachi win.

But since it's the wrong thread to do that, I'm just gonna make a thread about it.


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## Turrin (Oct 1, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Itachi could easily dodge Sasuke's Shuriken Trap like Zetsu stated, he just didn't want to.


Zetsu stated that if Itachi wasn't ill or going blind he'd have been able to dodge the shuriken-trap. Here he is in the same condition as he was in the Hebi-Sasuke fight.



> 4 of the member on the Team never faced anyone with a great mastery of genjutsu like Itachi, so if they (Hinata, Shino, Sai and Kiba) make eye contact with Itachi it's GG.


But they won't because Kakashi will tell them not to. 



> Kakashi can only hold off Itachi, he can't win against him without Kamui, and against Itachi he might either be forced to see Itachi's eyes or he get Amat'd, which he doesn't have knowledge on.


Once again I feel as if your evaluating this as if it's a 1v1. Yes Itachi would beat Kakashi 1v1, but he isn't just dealing with Kakashi. Let's say Kakashi holds him off, while that's going on 7 other attacks are coming Itachi's way.



> Seeing Kakashi and co knocked out, Naruto will just go KN3 and attack his teammate along with Itachi, which will force Yamato to stop him and Itachi will take this opportunity to finish off Sakura along with the genjutsu'd teammate. Sakura can't do much to him, so she get burned along with everyone else. Then it's just Yamato and a exaustled Naruto vs a midly- exausted Itachi and Itachi win.


Wow this is a super beneficial scenario skewed perfectly for Itach to win, that really bends my suspension of disbelief. 

If Itachi killed Kakashi, and Naruto went berserk, he's going to go after Itachi first. Sick Itachi after would than be pushed to breaking point to survive KN4. At which point ether Itachi finishes off KN4 w/ high difficult or Naruto evolves into KN5-8 and beats Itachi, after which Yamato suppresses KN4 after that, as he's done before in cannon, and the Team wins. Assuming Itachi defeats KN4, than Itachi will be left exhausted after having fought Kakashi (while also having to deal with the other team members attacks) and than fighting KN4 right aftwards, and he looses to Yamato, Sai, Sakura, Hinata, Kiba, and Shino. 

Though most likely Itachi does not kill Kakashi that easily given Kakashi's own skill and the level of back up he has here.


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