# Law and Zoro VS Fujitora



## Ekkologix (Jan 26, 2015)

Fujitora takes on Law and Zoro just like how Law was taking on Doflamingo and Fujitora. Fujitora is not trying to run / buy time though.

*Location:* Green Bit

*Distance:* Close-Ranged (10-30m) 

*Mindsets:*
*- Fujitora:* He has an absolute order from Akainu to destroy Law and Zoro.
*- Law:* He can never forgive Fujitora who killed Corazon.
*- Zoro:* He doesn't want to lose at all. He wants to be a better swordsman.

*Intel:* Reputation. The team can talk to each others of course.

*Conditions:* None.

*The Scenarios:*

*S1:* Law and Zoro VS Fujitora (No restriction)

*S2:* Law and Zoro VS Fujitora (The following restrictions apply)
*Restrictions of S2:*
- Fujitora cannot use his DF
- Law cannot use his DF.
- Zoro can only use only one sword (Shusui).

*Who takes the scenarios?*


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## zoro (Jan 26, 2015)

S1: Fuji solid mid diff

S2: Fuji decimates them


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## TheWiggian (Jan 26, 2015)

Fuji crushes them in any scenario.


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## Amol (Jan 26, 2015)

1) Issho wins with Mid diff 
2) Law is useless without his DF and majority of Zoro's arsenal is restricted.
Issho stomps.


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## barreltheif (Jan 26, 2015)

Fujitora wins the first scenario with mid diff and the second with low diff.


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## Coruscation (Jan 26, 2015)

Try Fujitora with only his sword vs. Law & Zoro at full power. The Admiral _might_ have a half-decent fight on his hands then. Two SN level people will be no problem to crush with his full power at his disposal, and if they try to take him on in a contest of swordsmanship alone when Zoro is restricted to only one blade, that's probably going to be even uglier.


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## Bernkastel (Jan 26, 2015)

Issho wins mid(high) diff since Law will be tricky at first.When he realises how his fruit works though he will take him out with much superior haki and then proceeds to kill Zoro.

Scenario 2: the team is much more restricted than Issho since Law is very DF dependent and Zoro wont pose much of a threat with all three of his swords much less with only one.Issho on the other hand is just practicing with his DF meaning he recently got it and was only relying on his swordsmanship before he got it.Issho mid diff at most.


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## rext1 (Jan 26, 2015)

In S1:
Law gets low-diffed by Fuji whilst Fuji is only able to put Zoro down after a high diff fight!

^Reason: Law was a fodder to Fuji's gravity attacks. As soon as Fuji activated his gravity field Law was pinned to the ground helpless as a newborn baby.
Zoro on the other hand not only tanked a superior gravity attack(which decimated the ground he stood on) but was able to launch a furious stalemating counterattack.

S2: Fuji's superior stats will still assure him victory here..
Law will go down low-diff coz he has no hax DF crutch to lean on.
Zoro will only go down extreme-diff, IMO Zoro possibly - after two years of dueling the WGS - is a better all around swordsman than Fuji. This will allow him to continuously outflank and outmaneuver Fuji - until eventually Fuji's superior stats wear him down.


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## Luke (Jan 26, 2015)

Fujitora destroys them.


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## trance (Jan 26, 2015)

Issho wins both scenarios comfortably. Even with his DF restricted, his stats are still firmly superior to either of them and I dare say his swordsmanship is in the same league as Mihawk's - whom Zoro obviously is still far away from.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 26, 2015)

Issho takes both scenarios comfortably.


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## Canute87 (Jan 26, 2015)

Don Usopp said:


> *S1:* Law and Zoro VS Fujitora (No restriction)



Fujitora wins with some effort.  



> *S2:* Law and Zoro VS Fujitora (The following restrictions apply)
> - Fujitora cannot use his DF
> *- Law cannot use his DF.*
> - Zoro can only use only one sword (Shusui).



Fight is over before it even begins.


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## Kaiser (Jan 26, 2015)

Fujitora low-mid diffs first scenario and low diffs the second


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## Sherlōck (Jan 26, 2015)

Fujitora destroys them.


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## Dr. White (Jan 26, 2015)

Law uses Zoro as a meatshield to Shambles his way out of the fight. GG WSS.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Jan 26, 2015)

Zoro too honourable to double team Fuji
he would let Law 1v1 Fuji first
Law would lose mid diff
then Zoro would give Fuji a senzu bean to be honourable
Fuji would be fully healed and beat Zoro high diff


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## Gohara (Jan 26, 2015)

It can go either way, but if I have to choose I lean towards Law and Zoro winning with extremely high difficulty.  Zoro and Law aren't around Admiral level IMO, but they're not far below that level either.  Both Zoro and Law are capable of fighting both at short range and at long range.  However, Zoro can mainly focus on fighting Fujitora at close range while Law can mainly focus on fighting Fujitora at long range.  Law should be able to redirect and/or destroy Fujitora's Meteors while Zoro can match Fujitora's swordsmanship.  If Zoro is having difficulty dealing with Fujitora's Gravity based abilities, Law can support him with his abilities.  Zoro has a lot of firepower while also having great defense, so he'll be able to deal Fujitora a significant amount of damage before being defeated.  A battle worn Fujitora will then have to fight a relatively fresh Law.  Fujitora's techniques will temporarily lose potency as a result of his condition at the time.  Meanwhile Law's techniques should mostly still be as effective as they usually are.  So Law should be able to defeat Fujitora at that point.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 26, 2015)

Scenario 1: Because of how tricky Law's DF can be, I can see the duo pushing Fujitora to the lower end of mid-diff in this bout. As we had seen canonically, Fujitora is able to defeat Zoro with around low difficulty, but Law's abilities would enable them to survive quite a bit longer and force Fuji to exert more effort.

Scenario 2: If Law doesn't have his fruit, he should be inferior to Zoro w/ one sword. Fujitora, on the other hand, still has better physical stats and can overwhelm them as swordsman. Didn't Fujitora effortlessly block Zoro's three-sword attack? Yeah. He low-diffs them in this scenario.

His level of Haki is logically much higher, too.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jan 26, 2015)

He low diffs both scenarios.

He summons Pica sized Meteorites. Law isn't using Tact or shambling away meteorites 5-20x the size as the first few he used. 

Fuji physical stats are enough to be half serious against a CQC specialist who embarrassed people close to Zoro&Law levels.  He is obviously stronger than Doffy who can half-way embarrass Law&Luffy/Zoro too.

No DF vs. them at full strength is the only interesting fight these guys can have.


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## Ekkologix (Jan 26, 2015)

I don't see how most people see it a mid diff.

Fujitora is stronger than each one of them individually but Law and Zoro can possibly have really nice combos together.

Like Law shambling Zoro and then injecting Fujitora and what not. Both of them are very agile and can fight decently with each others.


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## The Bloody Nine (Jan 27, 2015)

Yeah, while Fuji is an admiral he's not a logia and doesn't have their godlike defence For that reason alone its high difficulty. 

Scenario 1) High/Extreme difficulty to the duo. Fuji just hasn't shown enough. 

Scenario 2) Fuji takes this high difficulty.


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## Sanji (Jan 27, 2015)

Fuji mid diffs S1 at worst. 

DFless Law is garbo


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## Dr. White (Jan 27, 2015)

Sanji said:


> Fuji mid diffs S1 at worst.
> 
> DFless Law is garbo



Yeah I'd estimate Df'less Law being a bit over Sanji as well.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 27, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Yeah I'd estimate Df'less Law being a bit over Sanji as well.




Indeed Df'less Law is below Brook, totally agree with you.


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## Sanji (Jan 27, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Yeah I'd estimate Df'less Law being a bit over Sanji as well.



Now you didn't have to go and say that


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## Nekochako (Jan 27, 2015)

Scenario 1: Fujitora wins mid-diff 
Scenario 2: Fujitora wins low-diff.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jan 27, 2015)

Fujitora floats on a rock and nukes whatever land mass Law and Zoro standing on. Fujitora has literal nukes in his arsenal. 

They cannot Shambles or Cut meteorites comparable to Pica in size.  How does this go over so many posters heads!? This place is so fucking strange nowadays :/.


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## Dr. White (Jan 27, 2015)

Ryuksgelus said:


> Fujitora floats on a rock and nukes whatever land mass Law and Zoro standing on. Fujitora has literal nukes in his arsenal.
> 
> They cannot Shambles or Cut meteorites comparable to Pica in size.  How does this go over so many posters heads!? This place is so fucking strange nowadays :/.



As much as I love a good Fujitora thrashing thread, Fuji don't got the feats for Pica sized meteors, so we can't assume he can gravitate things of that magnitude. Fujitora's biggest meteors were against the SH and vs Sabo and Law was able to Takt the former. Law's multi Mountain cut also shits on Pica all day bro. 

If Fuji spams meteors on land I agree there is little they can do the longer the fight goes on, but Law's Room gives him and Zoro greater range in this fight and can bring Fuji close them, displacing him from the air. 

But anyway Fuji wins mid diff,nothing towards high but a solid mid diff fight.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jan 27, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> As much as I love a good Fujitora thrashing thread, *Fuji don't got the feats for Pica sized meteors, so we can't assume he can gravitate things of that magnitude*. Fujitora's biggest meteors were against the SH and vs Sabo and Law was able to Takt the former. *Law's multi Mountain cut also shits on Pica all day bro.*



How forgetful are we. 



That is two almost as big as the entire Mountain Pica just fused with making them bigger than town-fused Pica. The next biggest may still be bigger than town fused Pica.  The Chunks dwarf 3 story buildings. The smallest dwarf the first three he used on Law&Doffy way before. 



> If Fuji spams meteors on land I agree there is little they can do the longer the fight goes on, but Law's Room gives him and Zoro greater range in this fight and can bring Fuji close them, displacing him from the air.



What :/? Fuji reactions shit all over both of them. Getting close to the Admiral who can pancake them, send them flying, or just out power them in CQC is not a good idea. Just because his physical strength isn't emphasized does not mean it's not there. He has clashed with Sabo multiple times without being overwhelmed. The same Sabo who can match Burgesse's Surge Elbow without a foothold. Nuking them is something he can just do for the lulz.. Treating them like Sabo did Bastille is completely within his ability too. 



> But anyway Fuji wins mid diff,nothing towards high but a solid mid diff fight.



Nope It's low. Add Luffy it's still low. Once again even Mere Sabo couldn't pressure him despite Sabo's specialty being CQC. Being equal with Sabo would be bad enough but he was actually implied to be better since Sabo is the one breathing hard. Only reason Sabo wasn't harmed by Fierce Tiger is because he is a logia. Being able to fight the second strongest guy on the island *just to kill time and put on show f*or his subordinates so they don't suspect his intentions speaks volumes.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 27, 2015)

The Bloody Nine said:


> Yeah, while Fuji is an admiral *he's not a logia and doesn't have their godlike defence For that reason alone its high difficulty.*





The Bloody Nine said:


> Scenario 1) High/Extreme difficulty to the duo. Fuji just hasn't shown enough.



*Spoiler*: __ 







When Issho first encountered Zoro, he sent Zoro down a hole and had him coughing up blood, and Issho wasn't even trying to kill him.

*Spoiler*: __ 







Later on when Issho fought Sabo (someone who could also beat Law and Zoro), he was stalling for time, yet he still managed to gain a notable edge over Sabo. Issho has shown more than enough that proves he can crush Zoro and Law.


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## Dr. White (Jan 27, 2015)

Ryuksgelus said:


> How forgetful are we.
> 
> 
> 
> That is two almost as big as the entire Mountain Pica just fused with making them bigger than town-fused Pica. The next biggest may still be bigger than town fused Pica.  The Chunks dwarf 3 story buildings. The smallest dwarf the first three he used on Law&Doffy way before.


That meteor is no where near Pica sized. Maybe like the size of one of his hands with a bit of the arm? Go look at Pica's introduction and size in the 1080 P panel.  

Pica's Area shits on the meteors.



> What :/? Fuji reactions shit all over both of them. Getting close to the Admiral who can pancake them, send them flying, or just out power them in CQC is not a good idea.


Luckily zoro and Law don't have to fight from in close, and can just use guerilla warfare when they do have to get close.



> Just because his physical strength isn't emphasized does not mean it's not there. He has clashed with Sabo multiple times without being overwhelmed. The same Sabo who can match Burgesse's Surge Elbow without a foothold. Nuking them is something he can just do for the lulz.. Treating them like Sabo did Bastille is completely within his ability too.


Law and Zoro will being going all out from the beginning. 

I dont see him treating these two as such, considering they both know his power first hand. Law was abl to takt his meteors, and Zoro's slash sent him back a little impressing him. Together I can see them putting up a good fight. 





> Nope It's low. Add Luffy it's still low. Once again even Mere Sabo couldn't pressure him despite Sabo's specialty being CQC. Being equal with Sabo would be bad enough but he was actually implied to be better since Sabo is the one breathing hard. Only reason Sabo wasn't harmed by Fierce Tiger is because he is a logia. Being able to fight the second strongest guy on the island *just to kill time and put on show f*or his subordinates so they don't suspect his intentions speaks volumes.


I agree I just think Law and zoro have enough synergy and sense between them to take this to Mid Diff. Room to deal with meteors, Zoro to pressure with slashes, and shambles to save them from anything that might kill them. Although after reading your rebuttal Id change the diff from low to mid.


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## The Bloody Nine (Jan 27, 2015)

Look eventually there comes a point when enough high-tiers can defeat a top tier. Law is an extremely strong high-tier and Zoro is not too far behind; they both have oneshot potential especially with Law constantly shifting the battlefield.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jan 27, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> That meteor is no where near Pica sized. Maybe like the size of one of his hands with a bit of the arm? Go look at Pica's introduction and size in the 1080 P panel.  .



@_@? The hill with the castle is right behind him when he gets cut by Zoro. Two of those meteorites are comparable in size to the *castle and entire hill.*

There is literally no way you can look at the links I just posted and say those meteors are the size of Pica's fists :/. I mean the castle is right there in the same frame likely illustrated purposely to give your a very clear depiction fo their size. Are you on a phone or something? You can use your fingers or a ruler to see a very direct size comparison. 



> Luckily zoro and Law don't have to fight from in close, and can just use guerilla warfare when they do have to get close.



Well this is pretty stupid. Guerilla warfare against a guy who has actual Priest/Sandersonia level CoO and can likely pancake the entire area and with reactions to casually react to Sabo?



> Law and Zoro will being going all out from the beginning.



And the Admiral will respond accordingly.



> I dont see him treating these two as such, considering they both know his power first hand. Law was abl to takt his meteors, and Zoro's slash sent him back a little impressing him. *Together I can see them putting up a good fight.*



They have a small glimpse of his power and have no idea of his physical stats. 

All of the Blackbeard Pirates were not confident they could take Akainu but *two high tiers* are pushing a moderately weaker Admiral? This is where you pretend Law&Zoro are ridiculous stronger than the Level 6 Pirates when logically the level 6 are Seat level at worst. Shilliew possibly Doffy level. Or is this where you pretend the situations are completely different.




> I agree I just think Law and zoro have enough synergy and sense between them to take this to Mid Diff. *Room to deal with meteors,* Zoro to pressure with slashes, and shambles to save them from anything that might kill them. Although after reading your rebuttal Id change the diff from low to mid



Because you have a very underwhelming idea of what Fujitora should actually be capable of doing. Though honestly again what he has shown already is enough. His real strength will just make it clear why at MF entire packs of high tiers were not enough to deter Akainu or defeat Sengoku&Garp.


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## Dr. White (Jan 27, 2015)

Ryuksgelus said:


> @_@? The hill with the castle is right behind him when he gets cut by Zoro. Two of those meteorites are comparable in size to the *castle and entire hill.*
> 
> There is literally no way you can look at the links I just posted and say those meteors are the size of Pica's fists :/. I mean the castle is right there in the same frame likely illustrated purposely to give your a very clear depiction fo their size. Are you on a phone or something? You can use your fingers or a ruler to see a very direct size comparison.


I did a measurement and it is comparable to the palace, and levels 3, and bit of 2. I still think Pica's area is bigger overall (being shaped like a humanoid) but it is bigger than I gave it credit for. But Law still has the feats to cut through it. Although multiple would kill the duo.




> Well this is pretty stupid. Guerilla warfare against a guy who has actual Priest/Sandersonia level CoO and can likely pancake the entire area and with reactions to casually react to Sabo?


Yeah. Law was able to shambles out of Fuji's restraint, and outpaced dofla with it. Fuji is obviously better, but he wouldn't be completely no selling them in tandem.




> And the Admiral will respond accordingly.


And by the time he beats them the fight is somewhere between low and Mid. Fuji isn't always hailing down big ass meteors. Vs Law he used two big meteors and several smaller ones.





> They have a small glimpse of his power and have no idea of his physical stats.


Law is pretty smart. I'm pretty sure he can powerscale Fujitora. He's also seen both facets of his arsenal (gravity control, and meteors).



> All of the Blackbeard Pirates were not confident they could take Akainu but *two high tiers* are pushing a moderately weaker Admiral? This is where you pretend Law&Zoro are ridiculous stronger than the Level 6 Pirates when logically the level 6 are Seat level at worst. Shilliew possibly Doffy level. Or is this where you pretend the situations are completely different.


Fighting Akainu in that position would have been a complete waste of effort and time. BB himself can give Akainu a High diff fight at least, but taking time out of their schedule to fight him at the cost of casualties would have been stupid.

Law and Zoro are two very well portrayed high tiers, and as you said fighting a moderately weaker admiral. Law was ducking and dodging from the combined assault of Dofla and Fuji (who wasn't going near all out, but at that point was seriously trying to arrest Law., Doflamingo even commenting on his "Cruelty"). Zoro showed he can at least not look like complete fodder, and given a different approach could have done slightly better (Fuji intercepted him, and started pouring on the gravity.)






> Because you have a very underwhelming idea of what Fujitora should actually be capable of doing. Though honestly again what he has shown already is enough. His real strength will just make it clear why at MF entire packs of high tiers were not enough to deter Akainu or defeat Sengoku&Garp.


BB not wanting to tustle with Akainu = mean, him and his crew wouldn't have been able to, especially since they all ate a Sengoku Shockwave and then acted like it didn't happen.

I don't remember any of the high tiers swarming Akainu being comparable to zoro or Law barring Jinbei. Croc was able to intercept Akainu, and Ivankov approached him alone and was able to no sell one of his attacks.


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## Orca (Jan 27, 2015)

Fuji stomps both Scenarios.


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## Ryuksgelus (Jan 28, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> I did a measurement and it is comparable to the palace, and levels 3, and bit of 2. I still think Pica's area is bigger overall (being shaped like a humanoid) but it is bigger than I gave it credit for. *But Law still has the feats to cut through it.* Although *multiple would kill the duo*.



@_@? Pica is smaller than level one. It is directly behind him and clearly much bigger. The Meteorite would cover multliple level if you changed it's position in the panel. 

Law cuts whatever is in range of his dome but his dome only go up so high. He has never shown a dome remotely as tall as the castle.



> Yeah. Law was able to shambles out of Fuji's restraint, and outpaced dofla with it. Fuji is obviously better, *but he wouldn't be completely no selling them in tandem.*



When he was distracted by a pained marine. 

Yes he would. Where are you getting this idea that comparing serious Law in a do or die situation is a fair comparison to completely nonchalant Fujitora?


> And by the time he beats them the fight is somewhere between low and Mid. Fuji isn't always hailing down big ass meteors. Vs Law he used two big meteors and several smaller ones.



Because he wasn't serious. Even Sabo was not enough to get him serious. He never wanted to kill or capture anyone because he was always intending for the SH and Law to escalate the situation. This is a vs. thread so Fuji is bloodlusted so there will be meteors, no build up to fierce tiger, no remaining stationary remaining on the defensive, no going lightly because civilians are around. They go down as fast as Iva, Inazuma, Ace, and Jinbe went down when they had a rampaging Admiral on their asses. 



> Law is pretty smart. I'm pretty sure he can powerscale Fujitora. He's also seen both facets of his arsenal (gravity control, and meteors).



You're really going out of your way to depict this fight as fair huh -_-? Smarts don't help if the guy can simply pancake the entire area like he logically should be able. Or simple dashes towards them and cuts them to Ribbons. Or are you going to argue Fuji has no speed feats so we can't assume he can just lol blitz like any top tier logically should?



> Fighting Akainu in that position would have been a complete waste of effort and time. BB himself can give Akainu a High diff fight at least, but taking time out of their schedule to fight him at the cost of casualties would have been stupid.



No it wouldn't according to your logic. If two high tiers are enough to push an Admiral Mid-diff than over 6 along with a top tier babyshake an Admiral. They'd have killed him easily. The reason they ran is because even if it is likely they'd win they would have suffered casualties and possible deaths so it was not worth it. Totally worth it in your version of OP.


> Law and Zoro are two very well portrayed high tiers, and as you said fighting a moderately weaker admiral. Law was ducking and dodging from the combined assault of Dofla and Fuji (who wasn't going near all out, *but at that point was seriously trying to arrest Law.*, Doflamingo even commenting on his "Cruelty"). *Zoro showed he can at least not look like complete fodder, *and given a different approach could have done slightly better (Fuji intercepted him, and started pouring on the gravity.)



Nah he wasn't. The plot later should tell you all you need to know. We don't even see him seriously try to arrest Law. All we know is that he fired the occasional tiny meteorites then later decides to chow down on some Ramen. Not even crazy he let law go on purpose and only pretended to get distracted the same way he pretended he didn't know those meteorites would be useless against a Logia like Sabo. Pretty much every action Fujitora has taken this entire arc has been to put on a show for his subordinates. He has not seriously done *anything*. 

Yes getting serious Zoro can survive a very casual maneuver. 



> BB not wanting to tustle with Akainu = mean, him and his crew wouldn't have been able to, especially since they all ate a Sengoku Shockwave and then acted like it didn't happen.



Not be able and not being able to without paying for it dearly even if it doesn't result in their loss are two very different things. 


> I don't remember any of the high tiers swarming Akainu being comparable to zoro or Law barring Jinbei. *Croc was able to intercept Akainu,* and Ivankov approached him alone and was able to no sell one of his attacks.



The WB Pirates are not comparable to Law^&Zoro? This is about portrayal and the clear potrayal is that Admirals casually go toe to toe with multiple high tiers at the same time and  don't even consider it a serious engagement. 

He hit a stationary target. That is not intercepting :/? The point is he ran through them like nothing despite being critically injured and handicapping himself since none of the Admirals could really go all out at MF without killing thousands of their own men at a time.


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## HaxHax (Jan 28, 2015)

Luffy and Law, an objectively stronger duo, can barely take on Doflamingo together.


This scenario?


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## Dellinger (Jan 28, 2015)

Fujitora wasn't taking someone like Sabo seriously,he would have an easy time if he was serious against Law and Zoro.

You're clearly downplaying Fujitora here.


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## trance (Jan 28, 2015)

Sanji said:


> Now you didn't have to go and say that



It's potentially true, though.


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## Captain Altintop (Jan 28, 2015)

S1) Fuji wins with mid diff.

S2) Fuji wins low diff.


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## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2015)

Major Rebuttals:
-I'm not seeing the meteor being bigger than Pica in area. Maybe I'm blind but I just don't see it.

-Whether Fuji let Law die or not, my point was Law can shambles under duress, and in the nick of time, the feat still stands.

- IC is taking into account one's personality and character tendencies, so it plays a huge role in battle. You can take all your PIS bullshit, and tell it to the author. People are rarely bloodlusted in the grand scope of most shounen fights, so that's why I assume IC.

That being said I do agree with a majority of your points and will concede the argument. 

Also what Don Usopp said doesn't necessarily being bloodlusted.It was much more along the lines of IC with killing intent.


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## Freechoice (Jan 28, 2015)

One sided thread

1st - borderline mid diff

2nd - low diff


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## Virus (Jan 31, 2015)

Fujitora rapes them!


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## Ekkologix (Feb 2, 2015)

This Logic =

> One piece 60% done.
> Zoro with Law = 2 high tiers still getting fodderized by an admiral.
> Zoro needs to give up on being WSS I guess if that's how it goes unless a BS old hermit comes and give him Asura and Indra crap.

Also Luffy + Law would defeat Doffy. it's just that the fight was NEVER Luffy + Law VS Doffy. It was always interrupted from being a 2v1.

I'm not saying Zoro + Law should defeat Fujitora, but I'm disappointed of how people think that Zoro and Law are very weak in compared to an Admiral.


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## Hosemisnuba (Feb 2, 2015)

Scenario 1: Duo wins. Law uses the Immortality Operation on Zoro, Law dies and Zoro, due to his newfound immortality extreme difficulties Fujitora. If Law can't use the Immortality Operation, then Law and Zoro are at best low-mid difficultied by Fujitora.

Scenario 2: Fujitora ROFLLMAO stomps.


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## Luke (Feb 2, 2015)

S1: Fujitora wins with medium difficulty.

S2: Fujitora wins with no difficulty.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 2, 2015)

Don Usopp said:


> This Logic =
> 
> > One piece 60% done.
> > Zoro with Law = 2 high tiers still getting fodderized by an admiral.
> > Zoro needs to give up on being WSS


That is the worst excuse ever.


Don Usopp said:


> I'm not saying Zoro + Law should defeat Fujitora, but I'm disappointed of how people think that Zoro and Law are very weak in compared to an Admiral.


It's the truth.


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## Turrin (Feb 2, 2015)

Like the DF-less Kizaru vs Zoro in a Kenjutsu match thread, this is another thread that makes me question how much longer people think the series will run for. I mean if Zoro w/ the help of another very powerful fighter (Law) is still fodderized by Fujitora, than he is so far of from the point he needs to be at by EOS, that we'd need another 1,000 chapters just for Zoro to have a chance to get to that point, or the Straw-Hats would have to start getting enormous power ups every arc from here on out until the end of the manga. 

I mean at best Fujitora is around the Color-Trio in strength. EOS-Zoro should be above the Color Trio in strength given that he should be stronger than Prime Raleigh, who was blatantly indicated to be stronger than them. How is he going to reach that goal if not only does Fujitora Fodderize him, but Fodderizes him with the help of Law; and were already three arcs into Part II. This also makes me question what the hell was the point of the time-skip if an Admiral can still fodderize Law and Zoro, which probably means an Admiral can at least Low-Diff the entire straw-hat crew, if not fodderize them all as well, which is specifically what the Straw-Hats trained over the time-skip to prevent.

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Beyond that Zoro and Law both faced Fujitora and while they didn't make him get serious they certainly avoided being Fodderized, so the manga blatantly illustrates that Zoro and Law individually would at worst be low-diff'd by Fujitora, not Fodderized. Given this Fujitora taking them on 1v2 they should at least be able to put up a Mid-diff fight. That also at least makes the growth that Zoro has to undergo to reach Fujitora's "level" reasonable, as he could grow passive stronger over the course of the next arc or so to the point where he'd be Mid diff'd in a 1v1 by Fujitora, than get an EL style power up to cover the rest of the distance between himself and Fujitora, and than gain further exp and maybe a new sword, to push himself somewhat beyond that to match Prime-Raleigh, and than surpass Prime-Raleigh in his EOS final battle.

Verus Zoro needing like 6 more arc to grow passively stronger just to push Fujitora to mid diff, and than needs EL style power up, and still multiple arcs afterwards to reach Prime Raleigh.

And if Zoro/Law can at least push Fujitora to Mid diff, this would at least make it so the Straw-Hat Crew combined could push an Admiral to High-Diff and stand a chance of escaping said Admiral, instead of being utterly destroyed, thus invalidating the time-skip.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 2, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Like the DF-less Kizaru vs Zoro in a Kenjutsu match thread, this is another thread that makes me question how much longer people think the series will run for.


Part 1 was roughly about 600 chapters, so...


Turrin said:


> I mean at best Fujitora is around the Color-Trio in strength.


And the C3 proved that they were capable of fighting opponents like Whitebeard without faltering.


Turrin said:


> EOS-Zoro should be above the Color Trio in strength given that he should be stronger than Prime Raleigh, who was blatantly indicated to be stronger than them.


We don't know how strong Zoro will be at the EoS.


Turrin said:


> How is he going to reach that goal if not only does Fujitora Fodderize him, but Fodderizes him with the help of Law;


Get stronger with each new arc. Remember how big their growth was in Part 1? We'll probably see something similar in Part 2.


Turrin said:


> and were already three arcs into Part II.


Has it even been a week since they entered the New World?


Turrin said:


> This also makes me question what the hell was the point of the time-skip


It was so that they could survive in the New World.


Turrin said:


> Beyond that Zoro and Law both faced Fujitora and while they didn't make him get serious they certainly avoided being Fodderized, so the manga blatantly illustrates that Zoro and Law individually would at worst be low-diff'd by Fujitora, not Fodderized.





Issho said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Other examples showing how far the M3 and Supernovas are from the top include Doflamingo no diffing Sanji and taking a free Red Hawk from Luffy with only superficial damage, Akainu fodderizing high tiers even after getting hit by an Island Splitter, a half faced Whitebeard stomping Yami Blackbeard, etc.


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## Luke (Feb 2, 2015)

Part 2 of One Piece is at least going to be equal in length to Part 1 of One Piece. Part 1 was 600 chapters. 

Currently, we're around 175 chapters into Part 2. That means we're not even *A THIRD* of the way done with Part 2  yet *AT BEST. *

Luffy and the other SNs have plenty of time to grow. Plenty.


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## Coruscation (Feb 2, 2015)

Turrin said:
			
		

> Verus Zoro needing like 6 more arc to grow passively stronger just to push Fujitora to mid diff, and than needs EL style power up, and still multiple arcs afterwards to reach Prime Raleigh.



What exactly is wrong with that?

You know part I of One Piece had like 25 arcs, right? Part II has only had 3 so far. If Zoro can push an Admiral (an endgame/near endgame level opponent) to mid diff 9 arcs into part II that's not even close to being too late.

Chapter wise coming arcs are not likely to be as long as Dress Rosa. The next big fight is vs. a Yonkou, maybe two, which might take up like 3-5 arcs. The SHs are obviously going to need a ton of help to win which means if Zoro can push an Admiral, an at most only slightly below Yonko class opponent, to mid-diff alone after that, that's extremely high growth and promising for the future. Some miscellaneous arcs later he would be able to push an Admiral to high and eventually, as we're approaching the endgame, he'll fight one, or someone around that level, and win with extreme-diff. From there on he takes the last steps to become >= prime Ray through the last and greatest challenges he faces.

But IIRC you think that there'll be an "EL of part 2" in like 2-3 arcs from now and the M3 will solo Admirals then, so maybe I'm wasting my time :s


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## KaiserWombat (Feb 2, 2015)

Well, if nothing else succeeds, the sheer volume of stoic smug generated from the collective presence of Law and Zoro on the same battlefield is probably sufficient to constrict all of the physical orifices and airways of poor Issho-taisho, causing him to perish due to the extremely lethal result of Laconic asphyixation.

Fujitora is getting up in his years nowadays, the codger doesn't possess the immune system to 'cool and aloof young dudes who look like they don't care about life, overly lengthy clothes billowing in the harsh autumn breeze' diseases as he did in his youth.

---

Srs response, tho: I still see a Marine Admiral being noticeably above and beyond the payday of a current Monster Trio-class fighter, so much so that even a tandem isn't guaranteed to garner a victory, much less hold any comfortable advantage. Not to mention that Fujitora's gravity Devil Fruit is a highly ideal skillset to minimising numerical handicaps, with his extensive AoE and the severe immobilisation properties of these 'pressure fields' capable of being deployed at the proverbial drop of a hat. We've already seen exactly how effective this gravitational power can be in restraining the likes of Law on at least one occasion; Zoro, even if he is physically superior to Trafalgar, is certainly not so far above the Shichibukai in physical prowess that he can be given the benefit of the doubt and assumed to even break through the gravitational pressure without expiring significant fractions of his stamina in the process.

Issho, with probably mid-difficulty at best.


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## Turrin (Feb 2, 2015)

Issho said:


> Part 1 was roughly about 600 chapters, so....


So there was a little less than 600 chapters in Part I. So far we seem on track to reach around 200 chapters by the end of DR. That means 400 chapters left, after DR, going off the Part I estimate. 



> And the C3 proved that they were capable of fighting opponents like Whitebeard without faltering.


They were capable of fighting a Sick, Injured, and Old WB. Luffy needs to be stronger than Prime-WB, by EOS, and Luffy is not much stronger than Zoro is now, so whatever gap there is for Zoro, there isn't much difference for Luffy.



> We don't know how strong Zoro will be at the EoS.


What point would there be to the Future PK's Crew's Equivalent of Raleigh, not surpassing or even worse being weaker than Prime-Raleigh. That would be like Luffy not surpassing Roger.



> Get stronger with each new arc. Remember how big their growth was in Part 1? We'll probably see something similar in Part 2.


Their growth was large, but it wasn't to quite that enormous extent. 200 Chapters into Part I, was basically the end of Alabast Arc. Zoro got a-lot strong from Alabast, but not nearly as strong as would be necessary here if the gap was so large that Fujitora could foddizer him and law



> Has it even been a week since they entered the New World?


That doesn't really matter as much as the time in terms of chapters. 



> It was so that they could survive in the New World.


It was about both being able to take on the New-World and not being decimated like they were at Shabondy. In-fact it was that decimation that which made them feel as if they were not ready for the New-World.



> Other examples showing how far the M3 and Supernovas are from the top include Doflamingo no diffing Sanji and taking a free Red Hawk from Luffy with only superficial damage, Akainu fodderizing high tiers even after getting hit by an Island Splitter, a half faced Whitebeard stomping Yami Blackbeard, etc.


That really has nothing to do with the fact that both Zoro and Law weren't fodderized by Fujitora.



Luke said:


> Part 2 of One Piece is at least going to be equal in length to Part 1 of One Piece. Part 1 was 600 chapters.
> 
> Currently, we're around 175 chapters into Part 2. That means we're not even *A THIRD* of the way done with Part 2  yet *AT BEST. *
> 
> Luffy and the other SNs have plenty of time to grow. Plenty.



We will almost certainly be 1/3 through by the end of DR. That means 2/3rds left to go. Unless we start getting Naruto style nonsense power ups towards the end, or Part II is WAY bigger than Part I, that's not enough time for Luffy/Zoro to go from being raped by Fujitora w/ Law's help, to being stronger than Roger and Prime-Raleigh respectively, who are above the Color Trio by a decent margin, who Fujitora hasn't even proven himself to be as strong as.



Coruscation said:


> What exactly is wrong with that?


The fact that the arcs are much longer in Part II, with the shortest still being around 50 chapters. Therefore 6 Arcs in Part II would be a huge number of chapters.



> You know part I of One Piece had like 25 arcs, right? Part II has only had 3 so far. If Zoro can push an Admiral (an endgame/near endgame level opponent) to mid diff 9 arcs into part II that's not even close to being too late.


Let's say the amount of chapters remains roughly the same as the first 3-Arcs in Part II, I.E. 200 chapters. That means it would be 600 chapters, into Part II (the entire length of Part I) just until Zoro can push Fujitora to mid diff. And than how many more arcs will it be before Zoro surpasses Prime-Raliegh, whose at least a decent amount stronger than Fujitora? We'll be looking at like 1,200+ chapters before we even get to the Final-Arc.



> Chapter wise coming arcs are not likely to be as long as Dress Rosa. The next big fight is vs. a Yonkou, maybe two, which might take up like 3-5 arcs


And this is based on what? The first two PII arcs were roughly 50 chapters and than the next arc (DR) was even longer than that. If your saying just dealing with Kaidou is 3-5 arcs, thats going to get us to the size of Part I by the end of that shit, and at the rate Oda is going with arcs and 200 chapters already in the bank.



> The SHs are obviously going to need a ton of help to win which means if Zoro can push an Admiral, an at most only slightly below Yonko class opponent, to mid-diff alone after that, that's extremely high growth and promising for the future.


After a series of arcs that would span like the entire length of Part I, Zoro is finally able to put up a fight against an Admiral. Oda will be dead before he finishes the series at that rate. It's not like Oda can just go back to the 20 chapter long arcs of East-Blue and still have the straw-hats grow that much stronger each arc, now that there are some many characters in play each arc.



> Some miscellaneous arcs later he would be able to push an Admiral to high and eventually, as we're approaching the endgame, he'll fight one, or someone around that level, and win with extreme-diff. From there on he takes the last steps to become >= prime Ray through the last and greatest challenges he faces.


So about 2,000 chapters from now he'll reach Prime-Raleigh's level.



> But IIRC you think that there'll be an "EL of part 2" in like 2-3 arcs from now and the M3 will solo Admirals then, so maybe I'm wasting my time :s


Actually I think they will reach that "level" by the end of the 2-4 arcs depending on whether Oda does Jaya/W7 style arcs or combines them with their successive Skypia and EL arcs to make Mega-Arcs. Ether way I think it will be roughly in 200-300 chapters


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## Coruscation (Feb 3, 2015)

Turrin said:
			
		

> The fact that the arcs are much longer in Part II, with the shortest still being around 50 chapters. Therefore 6 Arcs in Part II would be a huge number of chapters.



You can't ground a statement on *every arc to come* in part II based off of its first 3 arcs, Turrin. It's unlikely that Oda hasn't realized these early arcs were a bit too long for their content, especially Dress Rosa, and will make sure to move things along quicker in the future.



> And this is based on what? The first two PII arcs were roughly 50 chapters and than the next arc (DR) was even longer than that.



Based on the fact that in One Piece, after long arcs, shorter arcs usually follow. You do read One Piece, right? Then I shouldn't be having to inform you of this. Yes, part II has had 3 long arcs in a row. But so what? Part I also had 3 long arcs in a row at one point (W7-EL-TB), that didn't change the overall fact that most arcs aren't 50+ chapters did it?



> If your saying just dealing with Kaidou is 3-5 arcs, thats going to get us to the size of Part I by the end of that shit.
> 
> [...]
> 
> After a series of arcs that would span like the entire length of Part I, Zoro is finally able to put up a fight against an Admiral.



The idea that dealing with Kaido will take as long as all of part 1, even based on your high-end estimation, is completely wrong. I'd estimate more like 150-200 chapters from now on comprising 3-5 arcs depending on length, meaning the average arc length would be anywhere between 30-66 chapters, which sounds fair. We're currently 175 chapters into part II, so by that estimation we would be at 325-375 by the time Kaido is defeated. That is approximately 60% the length of part 1 which seems pretty fair for being the defeat of a Yonkou, one of the 4 strongest pirates in the world. If Zoro can give an Admiral mid diff by himself at that point there are certainly no concerns for his future growth. Another 100 and he'll be close to beating one, after another 50 he can, then the finishing touches, assuming part I/part II are identical in length though chances are part II will be a bit longer.

So:


Zoro 175 chapters into part 2, gets low/no diffed.
Zoro 350~ chapters into part 2 puts up mid-diff.
Zoro 500-550 chapters into part 2 puts up high/extreme.
Zoro 600-650 chapters into part can beat an Admiral with less than extreme diff, much like it's been implied that prime Rayleigh could.
What is the problem with that estimation in your opinion?



> So about 2,000 chapters from now he'll reach Prime-Raleigh's level.



You were an English major right? You know what hyperbole is then, surely? Then you should know that this kind of overblown statement does nothing to help your argument. There is no estimation presented that suggests anything even close to the idea that Zoro will be at prime Rayleigh's level by chapter 2775 of One Piece. Why even use such an over the top strawman?


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## barreltheif (Feb 3, 2015)

> Zoro 175 chapters into part 2, gets low/no diffed.
> Zoro 350~ chapters into part 2 puts up mid-diff.
> Zoro 500-550 chapters into part 2 puts up high/extreme.
> Zoro 600-650 chapters into part can beat an Admiral with less than extreme diff, much like it's been implied that prime Rayleigh could.




500-550 chapters into part 2, we'll be at Raftel or the final war (assuming part 2 is the same length as part 1). No way in hell is Fujitora going to be high diffing by Zoro or Luffy at that point.


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## Coruscation (Feb 3, 2015)

Assuming part II is _roughly_ the same length as part I, I don't see any problems with that estimation at all. I don't know what your conception of the Final War is but, to me, it should be (as per Oda's and Whitebeard's words) a grand world war that puts MF to shame, spanning all the seas and especially the Grand Line, throwing all the world's powers into battle. During this time it's likely that the Straw Hats will confront several very powerful enemies. In Luffy's case he will definitely fight Akainu and Blackbeard. It would make sense for Zoro to also fight an Admiral around the same time as Luffy does it, and I wouldn't expect Zoro's fight with an Admiral to be any less than high/extreme difficulty. Would you? So I really don't see what's so "no way in hell" about what I wrote there.


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## barreltheif (Feb 3, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Assuming part II is _roughly_ the same length as part I, I don't see any problems with that estimation at all. I don't know what your conception of the Final War is but, to me, it should be (as per Oda's and Whitebeard's words) a grand world war that puts MF to shame, spanning all the seas and especially the Grand Line, throwing all the world's powers into battle. During this time it's likely that the Straw Hats will confront several very powerful enemies. In Luffy's case he will definitely fight Akainu and Blackbeard. It would make sense for Zoro to also fight an Admiral around the same time as Luffy does it, and I wouldn't expect Zoro's fight with an Admiral to be any less than high/extreme difficulty. Would you? So I really don't see what's so "no way in hell" about what I wrote there.




If the final war is that huge, and we assume that part 2 is around the same length as part 1, then that means that 500-550 will be part of the final war. Zoro during the final war isn't getting high diffed by the weakest admiral. That's basically saying that Zoro in the final war will be comparable to or slightly stronger than current Sabo.


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## Coruscation (Feb 3, 2015)

What, barrelthief, exactly is wrong with Zoro being approximately as strong as an Admiral going into the final war, and throughout the war fighting, surpassing and ultimately reaching a higher level than them? I could understand such an opinion coming from those who don't have much respect for the Admirals but I haven't got that impression from you before.

If you're hung up on my wording... "high-extreme" indicates near equality, but, since it tends to be how most OP fights of the highest caliber involving the MCs roll, I'm inclined to expect that Zoro will have a slight uphill struggle against such a prominent opponent as an Admiral. Luffy definitely will against Blackbeard and Akainu, and though admittedly Zoro nearly always struggles less, there has been at least one enemy (Mr. 1) that pushed him to his limit and held a slight overall advantage up until the moment Zoro managed to surpass him at the end of the fight. I'm inclined to think Mr. 1 won't remain the only opponent who pushed Zoro  to and beyond his limits forever.?

Also, attempting to belittle the stance by referring to Fujitora as "the weakest Admiral" is pretty pointless. It's pretty obvious we're meant to see him as an absolute monster in the same mold as the others (and Green Bull hasn't even been shown in the manga yet, so already concluding Fujitora is weaker than him is... mighty strange). He's got the same color and animal theme as his colleagues and the same abnormal height. Doffy explicitly highlighted him as a "true beast". He has been gooing off for all of Dress Rosa and still showed enough power to level the island with ease if he so chose. I have seen nothing indicating Fujitora is significantly weaker than any other Admiral bar perhaps Akainu... but being weaker than the main character's #2 primary antagonist of the entire series is hardly a cause for not being a worthy opponent of a sometime-during-the-final-war Zoro, imo.


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## VanzZz (Feb 3, 2015)

Hosemisnuba said:


> Scenario 1: Duo wins. Law uses the Immortality Operation on Zoro, Law dies and Zoro, due to his newfound immortality extreme difficulties Fujitora. If Law can't use the Immortality Operation, then Law and Zoro are at best low-mid difficultied by Fujitora.
> 
> Scenario 2: Fujitora ROFLLMAO stomps.



I think you are confusing living long with regeneration .


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## Turrin (Feb 3, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> You can't ground a statement on *every arc to come* in part II based off of its first 3 arcs, Turrin. It's unlikely that Oda hasn't realized these early arcs were a bit too long for their content, especially Dress Rosa, and will make sure to move things along quicker in the future.


Oda does not seem to have any issue with the length of the arcs, as after FI and PH, he made an even longer arc. Beyond that even on the slim chance Oda does suddenly start doing multiple arcs that are shorter than DR or Fi/PH after this, it's basically irrelevant to my point, because when I was talking about a time-frame of 6 arcs I was speaking under the hypothetical that those 6 arcs would relatively maintain the same pacing as the current Part II arcs. So attacking my point on the basis of, "well maybe the next 6 arcs will be shorter than FI/PH" isn't really germane to my point at all. 



> Based on the fact that in One Piece, after long arcs, shorter arcs usually follow. You do read One Piece, right? Then I shouldn't be having to inform you of this. Yes, part II has had 3 long arcs in a row. But so what? Part I also had 3 long arcs in a row at one point (W7-EL-TB), that didn't change the overall fact that most arcs aren't 50+ chapters did it?


What your showing is that the arcs on average got longer, as more members of the Straw-Hats joined and the cast got bigger. Oda was able to subverted this for a time, due to the events of Shabondy and creating special circumstances where the Straw-Hats got separated and the story just focused on Luffy. But rather than narrowing down the amount cast members, Oda is building them. We'll have 3 Wano characters at the end of this arc and than when the characters rejoin with Law's crew we'll have more characters there as well. That's w/o even getting into the possibility of other Super-Nova becoming allies with Luffy/Law. 



> The idea that dealing with Kaido will take as long as all of part 1, even based on your high-end estimation, is completely wrong. I'd estimate more like 150-200 chapters from now on comprising 3-5 arcs depending on length, meaning the average arc length would be anywhere between 30-66 chapters,


66-Chapters x 5 is 330 chapters, add that to the 200 chapters prior to this, and we have 530 chapters, which means were about 70 chapters off from Part I, in length by the time the Straw-Hats just deal with Kaidou.

That's the higher end of your estimate, but the idea that Oda would do 5 arcs in a row that are 30 chapters, is beyond the pale of wishful thinking. 



> Zoro 175 chapters into part 2, gets low/no diffed.
> Zoro 350~ chapters into part 2 puts up mid-diff.
> Zoro 500-550 chapters into part 2 puts up high/extreme.
> Zoro 600-650 chapters into part can beat an Admiral with less than extreme diff,much like it's been implied that prime Rayleigh could.


So again we'll be past the entire length of Part I by the time Zoro can beat Fujitora, by your estimate. And EOS Zoro will only be able to slightly less than extreme diff an Admiral (not even the strongest one). That seems fairly ridiculous to me.



> What is the problem with that estimation in your opinion?


That Zoro is way weaker than he should be at the end, considering he'd still have only slightly less than extreme diff with any Admiral by the end, which to me means he and unless there is massive gap between Luffy and Zoro at that point, are still really far off from Roger and Prime-WB's strength at the end of the story and the FV would also have to be far off from those two strength wise or defeated by a collective team rather than 1v1 vs Luffy.



> There is no estimation presented that suggests anything even close to the idea that Zoro will be at prime Rayleigh's level by chapter 2775 of One Piece. Why even use such an over the top strawman?


Because I couldn't even fathom that you were actually counting on us to have 30 chapter or less EB sized arcs, at this stage of the story.

Going off the more rational estimate that the amount of chapters per arcs stays the same as it's been so far, I.E 200 chapters per 3 arcs. It would be 350 chapters just to defeat Kaidou, based on your estimate that it could take 5 arcs. Than you said it would take several miscellaneous arcs for him to be able to give Fujitora high diff after that. So I assume that at least means 3 arcs, so we're now up to 550 chapters. Than you said eventually when we approach end game he'll fight one, so I assume this is also an event taking place several arcs later as well, so that brings us up to 750 chapters. Than you say he'll take his last steps to surpassng Prime Raleigh, which steps implies multiple improvements which also suggests multiple arcs. So that brings us to 950 chapters,  Add in an extra 50 for the ending, and were at 1,000.

So maybe 2,000 was an exaggeration, but your post certainly gave the impression that it would be a fuck ton of chapters, and I just didn't bother to do the math until now. However now I know your outline, so this pointless, but that was the impression I got initially.

Edit: Though I'd like to ask how much stronger than Fujitora do you see Prime-WB and Roger being? Because considering WB still showed the ability to go toe to toe with the Color Trio despite having been stabbed through the chest by Squard, being ill and separated from his IV-Drips which Marco even noted slowed him down considerably, and being weakened by age, which has been shown to greatly effect other characters, like Raleigh and Chinjao, to me it seems like the story would be nonsensical if Prime-WB wasn't a-lot stronger than Fujitora. And I'd imagine that Roger at least held a slight edge over Prime-WB, and I'd also imagine that the FV would hold at least a slight edge over Roger, who Luffy would in turn defeat proving he surpassed Roger. So to me the gap between Luffy and Fujitora at the end should pretty sizable, and even if Luffy was to pull considerably far ahead of Zoro at the end of the story, right now Luffy is not far off from Zoro in strength, so he'd still have to cross primarily the same distance strength wise that Zoro would have to, from his current strength to being above Roger by an amount that both fans and characters in story can noticeably acknowledge him as having surpassed Roger. 

Working that into your time table for Zoro, that would mean Luffy still would have a long way to go at EOS before reaching his end Goal, if Zoro only reaches slightly above Fujitora at EOS, or alternatively Luffy would need multiple asspull power ups leading up to EOS to cover a much greater distance than Zoro by the time of EOS.


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## Amol (Feb 3, 2015)

I don't think Issho will stay in Marines after Eradication of Warlord System.
That is only thing is in his mind. He already betrayed Akainu by letting go Dragon's son unharmed. Considering Akainu was ready to let go entire Yonkou crew as long as he can kill Dragon's son one can't betray Akainu more .
And then there is his good guy image. He would be shit tier character if he fought against revolution after all that speech he gave about people being more important.
So Zoro vs Issho will never happen 
That fight lacks hatred anyway.
And Issho is under no circumstance pushing EoS Zoro/Prime Ray to extreme diff.
That is utter bullshit.
After Kiado's fall I fully expect Luffy to give high diff to Akainu himself. Though we don't know when Kiado will fall .


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## Coruscation (Feb 3, 2015)

Are you talking to yourself Amol? Or misreading me again? Because no one has said anything about Fujitora giving prime Zoro an extreme diff fight as far as I'm aware. I explicitly said exactly the opposite of that.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> What your showing is that the arcs on average got longer, as more members of the Straw-Hats joined and the cast got bigger. Oda was able to subverted this for a time, due to the events of Shabondy and creating special circumstances where the Straw-Hats got separated and the story just focused on Luffy. But rather than narrowing down the amount cast members, Oda is building them. We'll have 3 Wano characters at the end of this arc and than when the characters rejoin with Law's crew we'll have more characters there as well. That's w/o even getting into the possibility of other Super-Nova becoming allies with Luffy/Law.



Sure, arcs are going to be longer on average because there's more stuff going around. But how long was the average part 1 arc? 25-30 chapters? Even if rises by 50% it still won't be as much as 50 chapters per arc on average.

FI, PH and DR are all actually quite meaty arcs in terms of story. They've been overlong, yes, but not by a colossal amount -- they're no Little Gardens, Jayas or Sabaodys. There's no reason Oda won't make arcs that don't have as much important content on them in the future. This was all a very big build-up toward important events about to go down in the New World. You can not take the fact that 3 arcs in a row have been relatively lengthy as evidence that every arc will be that long or longer, Turrin. It's happened before that 3 50+ chapter arcs came in a row - it meant that at the time, there were simply several longish arcs in a row to be had.



> 66-Chapters x 5 is 330 chapters, add that to the 200 chapters prior to this, and we have 530 chapters



No, you're reading me completely wrong. 200 chapters can be divided into 3 arcs of 66 chapters each. I said nothing about 5 arcs of that length. That is lunacy to believe will happen as that would be some ungodly atrocious slow pacing and we have absolutely no cause to believe it. And we don't have 200 chapters yet, Turrin. Even with this estimate of insanity you don't reach part 1's length.



> That's the higher end of your estimate, but the idea that Oda would do 5 arcs in a row that are 30 chapters, is beyond the pale of wishful thinking.



Jesus Turrin, it's called accounting for all possible outcomes.



> So again we'll be past the entire length of Part I by the time Zoro can beat Fujitora, by your estimate.



No, Turrin. Read. By the time we're past the length of part I he can win with *less than extreme difficulty*, according to my little schedule. He would be beating Fujitora somewhere between the 500-600 mark, with extreme-diff. Or maybe you expect Zoro's fight with an Admiral to be less than extreme diff?



> And EOS Zoro will only be able to slightly less than extreme diff an Admiral (not even the strongest one). That seems fairly ridiculous to me.



Where are you getting "slightly" from, Turrin? I gave that statement no qualifiers. I'm sure you know it's poor debating form to use strawmen to make your own argument seem stronger.



> That Zoro is way weaker than he should be at the end, considering he'd still have only slightly less than extreme diff with any Admiral by the end



Oh, so it's just your dumbass Admiral downplaying? OK then.



> to me means he and unless there is massive gap between Luffy and Zoro at that point, are still really far off from Roger and Prime-WB's strength at the end of the story and the FV would also have to be far off from those two strength wise or defeated by a collective team rather than 1v1 vs Luffy.



Luffy would be stronger than Zoro, for one.

Luffy will likely have an uphill battle with Teach (the FV), for two.

Saying that someone is "really far off" from prime WB if they can high-diff an Admiral is just plain nutty. I mean this guy named Mihawk, you know? Zoro's ultimate goal? How much stronger do you think he is than an Admiral if Zoro can high-diff an Admiral and apparently still be "way below" the strength he "should" be at?

So I guess Luffy could probably mid-diff someone like Fujitora. Sounds kind of crazy to say but a guy at/near prime WB or Roger level doing that isn't off the charts nutty. But maybe mid-diff isn't enough for you? The greatest powers of the Marines don't even deserve that?



> So maybe 2,000 was an exaggeration, but your post certainly gave the impression that it would be a fuck ton of chapters, and I just didn't bother to do the math until now. However now I know your outline, so this pointless, but that was the impression I got initially.



Yeah, you completely misread me and made some off-the-wall hyperbolic strawman.



> to me it seems like the story would be nonsensical if Prime-WB wasn't a-lot stronger than Fujitora. And I'd imagine that Roger at least held a slight edge over Prime-WB, and I'd also imagine that the FV would hold at least a slight edge over Roger, who Luffy would in turn defeat proving he surpassed Roger. So to me the gap between Luffy and Fujitora at the end should pretty sizable, and even if Luffy was to pull considerably far ahead of Zoro at the end of the story, right now Luffy is not far off from Zoro in strength, so he'd still have to cross primarily the same distance strength wise that Zoro would have to, from his current strength to being above Roger by an amount that both fans and characters in story can noticeably acknowledge him as having surpassed Roger.
> 
> Working that into your time table for Zoro, that would mean Luffy still would have a long way to go at EOS before reaching his end Goal, if Zoro only reaches slightly above Fujitora at EOS, or alternatively Luffy would need multiple asspull power ups leading up to EOS to cover a much greater distance than Zoro by the time of EOS.



No, I don't agree with your assumption that there's this giant massive chasm between someone like Whitebeard and the strongest of the Admirals. There's a sizeable gap certainly. But since I don't share your persistent assumptions about a whole slew of god tier guys popping out of the earth to fulfill the requirements of Shonen laws at the end of the series, I view the Admirals as endgame/near endgame opponents in light of their position as the WG's ultimate combat power. I also don't think there's any need for Luffy to surpass Roger outright. Roger was a 45 year old dude who sailed the seas forever. Luffy can have many years after his main OP journey to become even stronger. Luffy always fights uphill battles so if BB at the end is slightly stronger than Luffy forcing an extreme-diff fight and Luffy to surpass himself in the process, that's fine too. If Luffy at the age of something like 21 can even *reach* Roger's level, do you realize how much of an accomplishment that... oh, right, sorry. Forgot about Shonen Laws™.


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## Amol (Feb 3, 2015)

It is called commenting on general topic, Corus .
If I have anything to say you, I will quote you.
I was just putting my thoughts on this matter .


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## tanman (Feb 3, 2015)

Amol said:


> So Zoro vs Issho will never happen



Pretty sure after Issho beats Mihawk, Zoro will feel pretty inclined to beat him.
#myfanficIsGoingToComeTrue


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## Amol (Feb 3, 2015)

tanman said:


> Pretty sure after Issho beats Mihawk, Zoro will feel pretty inclined to beat him.
> #myfanficIsGoingToComeTrue



Nah,I think Zoro x Issho x Mihawk x Shiliew will happen. 
#MyLogicIsIrrefutable


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## Turrin (Feb 3, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Sure, arcs are going to be longer on average because there's more stuff going around. But how long was the average part 1 arc? 25-30 chapters? Even if rises by 50% it still won't be as much as 50 chapters per arc on average.
> 
> FI, PH and DR are all actually quite meaty arcs in terms of story. They've been overlong, yes, but not by a colossal amount -- they're no Little Gardens, Jayas or Sabaodys. There's no reason Oda won't make arcs that don't have as much important content on them in the future. This was all a very big build-up toward important events about to go down in the New World. You can not take the fact that 3 arcs in a row have been relatively lengthy as evidence that every arc will be that long or longer, Turrin. It's happened before that 3 50+ chapter arcs came in a row - it meant that at the time, there were simply several longish arcs in a row to be had.
> .


Turrin says arcs will range from around 50 to 100 chapters, based on prior precedence. Coruscation says no. Than Coruscation does the math and says the average would be around 50 chapters. Coruscation still says Turrin is wrong. WHAT? 



> No, Turrin. Read. By the time we're past the length of part I he can win with less than extreme difficulty, according to my little schedule. He would be beating Fujitora somewhere between the 500-600 mark, with extreme-diff. Or maybe you expect Zoro's fight with an Admiral to be less than extreme diff?


600 Chapters into Part II, which equals the entire length of Part I, I would expect Zoro to defeat Fujitora w/ less than extreme diff, as we' should be at Raftel and Final-War by then, unless again Part II is going to be significantly longer than Part I.



> Where are you getting "slightly" from, Turrin? I gave that statement no qualifiers. I'm sure you know it's poor debating form to use strawmen to make your own argument seem stronger.


Because if it was more than slightly, you would have just said high diff.



> Saying that someone is "really far off" from prime WB if they can high-diff an Admiral is just plain nutty.


Let's be real here, you originally said less than extreme diff, which implies it's only slightly less, I'm not the only one who took this to mean Zoro having greater than High diff, as Amol did to. So maybe you should check your terminology for the reason why people are responding to you this way. 

Second I still think relative to that point in the story that they'd have a decent gap to transverse, as your saying (or at least now saying) that Zoro high diffs Fujitora 650 chapters into Part II, which is already past the length of Part I. 



> I mean this guy named Mihawk, you know? Zoro's ultimate goal? How much stronger do you think he is than an Admiral if Zoro can high-diff an Admiral and apparently still be "way below" the strength he "should" be at?


Don't know how strong Mihawk is and I don't know if Mihawk will be Zoro's EOS goul or another swordsmen will defeat Mihawk for the title before Zoro.



> So I guess Luffy could probably mid-diff someone like Fujitora. Sounds kind of crazy to say but a guy at/near prime WB or Roger level doing that isn't off the charts nutty. But maybe mid-diff isn't enough for you? The greatest powers of the Marines don't even deserve that?


Probably Luffy should Low-Diff Fujitora by EOS, if WB while Old/Sick/Injured can still fight competitively against the Color Trio.



> No, I don't agree with your assumption that there's this giant massive chasm between someone like Whitebeard and the strongest of the Admirals. There's a sizeable gap certainly. But since I don't share your persistent assumptions about a whole slew of god tier guys popping out of the earth


Yup the Gorosei and BB sure are popping out of nowhere. Haven't been established at all 



> I view the Admirals as endgame/near endgame opponents in light of their position as the WG's ultimate combat power. I also don't think there's any need for Luffy to surpass Roger outright. Roger was a 45 year old dude who sailed the seas forever. Luffy can have many years after his main OP journey to become even stronger. Luffy always fights uphill battles so if BB at the end is slightly stronger than Luffy forcing an extreme-diff fight and Luffy to surpass himself in the process, that's fine too. If Luffy at the age of something like 21 can even reach Roger's level, do you realize how much of an accomplishment that... oh, right, sorry. Forgot about Shonen Laws?


Luffy not surpassing Roger, would be deviate extremely from most Shonens. If you want to poke fun at someone who says it's more likely that the story converges with most Shonens rather than diverges, than that is nothing more than you being bias, rather than looking at what is actually more likely to occur based on past precedences. 

Beyond Shonen Laws, you should at least acknowledge that your standpoint relies on thee most minimalistic estimate of Luffy's EOS strength possible to occur.


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## barreltheif (Feb 3, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> What, barrelthief, exactly is wrong with Zoro being approximately as strong as an Admiral going into the final war, and throughout the war fighting, surpassing and ultimately reaching a higher level than them? I could understand such an opinion coming from those who don't have much respect for the Admirals but I haven't got that impression from you before.
> 
> If you're hung up on my wording... "high-extreme" indicates near equality, but, since it tends to be how most OP fights of the highest caliber involving the MCs roll, I'm inclined to expect that Zoro will have a slight uphill struggle against such a prominent opponent as an Admiral. Luffy definitely will against Blackbeard and Akainu, and though admittedly Zoro nearly always struggles less, there has been at least one enemy (Mr. 1) that pushed him to his limit and held a slight overall advantage up until the moment Zoro managed to surpass him at the end of the fight. I'm inclined to think Mr. 1 won't remain the only opponent who pushed Zoro  to and beyond his limits forever.?
> 
> Also, attempting to belittle the stance by referring to Fujitora as "the weakest Admiral" is pretty pointless. It's pretty obvious we're meant to see him as an absolute monster in the same mold as the others (and Green Bull hasn't even been shown in the manga yet, so already concluding Fujitora is weaker than him is... mighty strange). He's got the same color and animal theme as his colleagues and the same abnormal height. Doffy explicitly highlighted him as a "true beast". He has been gooing off for all of Dress Rosa and still showed enough power to level the island with ease if he so chose. I have seen nothing indicating Fujitora is significantly weaker than any other Admiral bar perhaps Akainu... but being weaker than the main character's #2 primary antagonist of the entire series is hardly a cause for not being a worthy opponent of a sometime-during-the-final-war Zoro, imo.




What you're saying is this. The straw hats make it all the way through the grand line. They almost certainly take down a yonkou at some point. They make it to Raftel. They find one piece. Luffy most likely becomes the pirate king, or it's ambiguous between him and Blackbeard or something. Then the final war starts. During the final war, Zoro is _still_ weaker than Fujitora??

No. That's ridiculous. And saying that it's ridiculous in no way downplays Fujitora. Fujitora is a monster. But he's not stronger-than-the-partner-of-the-pirate-king level.


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## Coruscation (Feb 3, 2015)

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the final war won't be the post-BB/Luffy/PK stuff. I'm saying the final war will be when Luffy _becomes_ PK. Raftel isn't the end of the series. It's a fakeout. It won't be that simple.

My conception of endgame OP is closer to:
-> SHs make it to Raftel, they learn the lost history
-> Blackbeard shows up, takes the treasure and starts a world war
-> SHs decide to go to war as well
-> Marines, Revs and independents join the war too
-> battles throughout the world. SHs + allies fight in many places. Every SH, but especially Luffy, Zoro and Sanji, face powerful opponents, including Admirals. Akainu ultimately becomes Luffy's penultimate battle. They all grow during the course of the war, because think about it, why wouldn't they undergo major growth during a sequence of the toughest battles of their life in a world war?
-> at the end of the war, SHs vs. BBs happen. Despite having beaten Akainu already Luffy still has an uphill fight with Teach.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Turrin says arcs will range from around 50 to 100 chapters, based on prior precedence. Coruscation says no. Than Coruscation does the math and says the average would be around 50 chapters. Coruscation still says Turrin is wrong. WHAT?



I have no idea what you're reading, Turrin. Your claims have been that the arc average will be 66-67 chapters (since you keep talking about 3 arcs = 200 chapters). I'm pretty sure my reply is a pretty good reply to that. Admittedly, I winged the numbers but the 40-45 I arrived it is a far cry from the 66-67 you treat as the baseline.



> 600 Chapters into Part II, which equals the entire length of Part I, I would expect Zoro to defeat Fujitora w/ less than extreme diff



Yeah. *That's exactly what I said*.



> Because if it was more than slightly, you would have just said high diff.



Wat, Turrin? No. I said lower than extreme diff because that's exactly what I meant. I don't claim to know for a fact what difficulty it will be then, because I am humble toward the fact that I don't know exactly how strong the Admirals actually are or how strong Zoro will be at that time. Could be mid, mid-high, high or high-extreme. I wrote less than extreme diff without specifying in order to leave the door open for multiple possibilities. I can't imagine that's so hard to grasp.



> Let's be real here, you originally said less than extreme diff, which implies it's only slightly less, I'm not the only one who took this to mean Zoro having greater than High diff, as Amol did to. So maybe you should check your terminology for the reason why people are responding to you this way.



That is not me needing to check my terminology. Less than extreme diff has one single crystal clear meaning. It means it won't take extreme diff. It says nothing about what it would take, other than not-extreme. It isn't my fault if people make ungrounded inferences.



> Don't know how strong Mihawk is and I don't know if Mihawk will be Zoro's EOS goul or another swordsmen will defeat Mihawk for the title before Zoro.



OK, but you do know Mihawk is held up as the benchmark for Zoro right? You may think that Zoro will end up being even stronger than that but do you really think Mihawk's strength isn't meant to be seen as an extremely respectable benchmark. Do you really think if Zoro barely surpassed Mihawk, which is probably comparable to surpassing Fujitora by a slightly bigger margin, that would be _way too weak_? Or do you think Mihawk is much stronger than Fujitora or something? You can say that you don't know but I'm asking what you think of this for the time being. Because your worldview seems to demand that either >= Mihawk strength is pathetically low and completely unworthy of endgame Zoro, or Mihawk is much stronger than Fuji.



> Probably Luffy should Low-Diff Fujitora by EOS



No, he really shouldn't. I imagine you're the only one on this forum who thinks that. But I guess it's what that lawbook of Shonen laws that only you seem to have says or something.



> Yup the Gorosei and BB sure are popping out of nowhere. Haven't been established at all



Gorousei suddenly being godly top tiers who can take a couple Admirals to town before breakfast and have plenty left in the tank? Yeah, sure. Not out of nowhere at all. As for BB, there's nothing supporting the idea he will be shitting on Admirals either. He'll definitely be the strongest man in the world by a noticeable margin though.



> Luffy not surpassing Roger, would be deviate extremely from most Shonens. If you want to poke fun at someone who says it's more likely that the story converges with most Shonens rather than diverges, than that is nothing more than you being bias, rather than looking at what is actually more likely to occur based on past precedences.
> 
> Beyond Shonen Laws, you should at least acknowledge that your standpoint relies on thee most minimalistic estimate of Luffy's EOS strength possible to occur.



I wouldn't poke fun at someone for saying that Luffy will surpass Roger by the end of the story. I might poke fun at someone who thinks that it absolutely must happen and he can't possibly surpass him in any other way than raw fighting power.

Huh, what? No, the most minimalistic estimate is that Luffy won't become as powerful as Roger by EOS. And that he'll become as powerful as Roger, or stronger, during the many years ahead of him as a pirate or something. My suggestion is that it'll just be ambiguous... or that Luffy will have to fight an uphill battle against Teach, being weaker than him from the outset and surpassing himself in the fight of his life. So it's not as if Luffy will be = or > Roger during the Final War. It'll be post-war Luffy if anything.


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## Turrin (Feb 4, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> I have no idea what you're reading, Turrin. Your claims have been that the arc average will be 66-67 chapters (since you keep talking about 3 arcs = 200 chapters). I'm pretty sure my reply is a pretty good reply to that. Admittedly, I winged the numbers but the 40-45 I arrived it is a far cry from the 66-67 you treat as the baseline.
> .


I think complaining about roughly around 45 vs roughly around 65, is fairly fucking pointless nit picking, but be my guest 



> Yeah. That's exactly what I said.


You asked a question, _"Or maybe you expect Zoro's fight with an Admiral to be less than extreme diff?"_

I answered the question, _"600 Chapters into Part II, which equals the entire length of Part I, I would expect Zoro to defeat Fujitora w/ less than extreme diff"_

That's how a conversation works Coruscation 



> Wat, Turrin? No. I said lower than extreme diff because that's exactly what I meant. I don't claim to know for a fact what difficulty it will be then, because I am humble toward the fact that I don't know exactly how strong the Admirals actually are or how strong Zoro will be at that time. Could be mid, mid-high, high or high-extreme. I wrote less than extreme diff without specifying in order to leave the door open for multiple possibilities. I can't imagine that's so hard to grasp


Okay so according to your estimate Zoro goes from losing to Fujitora high/extreme diff, to potentially being able to beat Fujitora w/ Mid diff in at most 100 chapters. Gee I wonder why I didn't assume you were referring to such mind baffling nonsense.



> That is not me needing to check my terminology. Less than extreme diff has one single crystal clear meaning. It means it won't take extreme diff. It says nothing about what it would take, other than not-extreme. It isn't my fault if people make ungrounded inferences..


But it doesn't make any sense with the time table you laid out. At Chapter 550 Fujitora potentially high diffs Zoro, yet at least by chapter 650 Zoro could go from that to mid diffing Fujitora. That makes no sense, unless you think Zoro will have several asspull Sage-of-Six-Paths Naruto style power ups within the last 50 to 100 chapters. So there was no reason for me to assume your progression suddenly took such an insane leap. 

Your terminology combined with the time table you set up is confusing and misleading. And I'm not the only one misled by it, there are at least 2 others posters that you confused the shit out of with the way you explained things.



> OK, but you do know Mihawk is held up as the benchmark for Zoro right? You may think that Zoro will end up being even stronger than that but do you really think Mihawk's strength isn't meant to be seen as an extremely respectable benchmark. Do you really think if Zoro barely surpassed Mihawk, which is probably comparable to surpassing Fujitora by a slightly bigger margin, that would be way too weak? Or do you think Mihawk is much stronger than Fujitora or something? You can say that you don't know but I'm asking what you think of this for the time being. Because your worldview seems to demand that either >= Mihawk strength is pathetically low and completely unworthy of endgame Zoro, or Mihawk is much stronger than Fuji.


Again before we get into semantics you better define slightly bigger margin. Because I'd define that as like the difference between High (High) diffing someone and High (Mid) diffing someone, but I know if I work under that assumption, you'll start complaining that this is not what you meant by slight bigger margin.

But what I'll say is that under my conventional understanding of slightly bigger margin, than yeah Zoro would have a decent ways to go still, but I don't see why it than has to go to the other extreme that Mihawk must then be way stronger than Fujitora. Mihawk could be stronger than Fujitora by a noticeable margin, that is greater than slightly-bigger-margin, w/o being way stronger than Fujitora.



> No, he really shouldn't.


Based on what exactly. You already said you could see Zoro Mid diffing Admirals at EOS, and I could easily see Luffy being stronger than Zoro by a decent enough margin where he'd than Low Diff an Admiral, especially if said Admiral is potentially one of the weaker ones, or at the very least not one of the stronger ones like Akainu.



> Gorousei suddenly being godly top tiers who can take a couple Admirals to town before breakfast and have plenty left in the tank?


You just talked about how you thought Part II would be 650 chapters long. Meaning there is another 425 chapters (over two thirds of Part I) for the Gorosei to ether power up or for their "power-levels" already being extremely high to be explained. So sitting here and claiming it would be out of nowhere, if by EOS some of them were to reach the necessary strength to propell the group to FV standings, is absolutely atrocious reasoning.



> s for BB, there's nothing supporting the idea he will be shitting on Admirals either. He'll definitely be the strongest man in the world by a noticeable margin though.


What's shitting on? I don't consider Mid (Low) to Low (High) Diff shitting on someone. 



> I wouldn't poke fun at someone for saying that Luffy will surpass Roger by the end of the story. I might poke fun at someone who thinks that it absolutely must happen and he can't possibly surpass him in any other way than raw fighting power.


Except I didn't say it's absolute, I said it's vastly more likely.



> Huh, what? No, the most minimalistic estimate is that Luffy won't become as powerful as Roger by EOS.


No that's a joke.



> My suggestion is that it'll just be ambiguous... or that Luffy will have to fight an uphill battle against Teach, being weaker than him from the outset and surpassing himself in the fight of his life. So it's not as if Luffy will be = or > Roger during the Final War. It'll be post-war Luffy if anything.


Okay so just because you can come up with another more minimal scenario that has like a ,0000000000000001% chance of happening, doesn't really diminish my point. The interpretation where Luffy does not surpass Roger is still relies on an extremely minimal estimate of Luffy's strength that is more unlikely to happen, than more average estimates, just like i'd say the same thing about someone who estimated Luffy would FAR surpass Roger.


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## Coruscation (Feb 4, 2015)

> I think complaining about roughly around 45 vs roughly around 65, is fairly fucking pointless nit picking, but be my guest



How is something that amounts to a difference of *100-125 chapters* in our respective estimations of 5 arcs worth of time "nitpicking", Turrin?

Go ahead and explain yourself.



> You asked a question, "Or maybe you expect Zoro's fight with an Admiral to be less than extreme diff?"
> 
> I answered the question, "600 Chapters into Part II, which equals the entire length of Part I, I would expect Zoro to defeat Fujitora w/ less than extreme diff"



That's not an answer to the question. I asked if you expected Zoro's fight with an Admiral - as in the fight that he will have - to be less than extreme-diff when it happens. As I made clear I also don't believe it will happen at the 600 ch. mark and still be extreme-diff. But when it does, what diff will it be IYO?



> Okay so according to your estimate Zoro goes from losing to Fujitora high/extreme diff, to potentially being able to beat Fujitora w/ Mid diff in at most 100 chapters. Gee I wonder why I didn't assume you were referring to such mind baffling nonsense.



500 to 650 is 150 chapters. That's the *at most* you're looking for. Read more carefully. And sure. I don't think it's necessarily too crazy for 150 chapters to make a fight go from extreme-diff to mid diff. You have to keep in mind we're talking about chapters focused entirely on warfare and fighting here. It's, you know, a world war, where the SHs will be fighting the strongest people in the world. A time like that is bound to cause people to get stronger at a faster pace than an equivalent number of chapters where a lot of it is spent not really doing much else than running around and occasionally fighting a little.



> But it doesn't make any sense with the time table you laid out. At Chapter 550 Fujitora potentially high diffs Zoro, yet at least by chapter 650 Zoro could go from that to mid diffing Fujitora. That makes no sense



Jesus fucking christ Turrin. You just took the MOST EXTREME possibility and tried to use that to denounce my entire position, just to cover up your own lousy reading. Do you know why I put little "-" or "/" type signs between these numbers? It's to represent that there's a range of possible options which could go together in any number of ways. It doesn't mean I'm taking a stance for the most extreme possibilities. That is simply the widest I'm willing to stretch the range of possible outcomes.

You need to stop strawmanning and start being intellectually honest.



> Based on what exactly. You already said you could see Zoro Mid diffing Admirals at EOS, and I could easily see Luffy being stronger than Zoro by a decent enough margin where he'd than Low Diff an Admiral, especially if said Admiral is potentially one of the weaker ones, or at the very least not one of the stronger ones like Akainu.



Is cherrypicking the combination of all the most extreme possibilities a person is willing to accept a personal hobby of yours or something? I *never* said I can see Zoro mid-diffing an Admiral and Luffy being stronger to the point where he'd low-diff one. Don't invent my positions for me, please. At any rate, you said that you think Luffy probably SHOULD be able to low-diff Fujitora at the end of the series. There is a big difference between "should" and something that may happen but with a very small chance (which I assure you is what most people here will tell you Luffy low-diffing Fujitora is).



> Meaning there is another 425 chapters (over two thirds of Part I) for the Gorosei to ether power up or for their "power-levels" already being extremely high to be explained.



It's still out of nowhere in the grand scheme of the series. But we've talked about this before. You apparently seem to think that Dragonball-style storytelling where god level folks pop up on short notice with some half-assed explanation is superior to the holistic, coherent storytelling that Oda and authors of other well written manga like FMA, which do a good job of establishing powers early on and sticking to them, clearly favors.



> What's shitting on? I don't consider Mid (Low) to Low (High) Diff shitting on someone.



Low-diffing is shitting on, in this context. Don't pretend otherwise for a second. If the ultimate combat power of the Marines/WG can be low-diffed, which by conventional standards is something like Luffy vs. Hody, an embarassing outclassing, then that's taking a figurative dump all over these people that have been highlighted consistently as absolute beasts.



> No that's a joke.



Most people here would call your assessment that Luffy "should" low-diff Admirals by EOS a joke. I don't think you alone calling my assessment of Luffy's endgame strength a joke is a very strong argument in light of that.



> Okay so just because you can come up with another more minimal scenario that has like a ,0000000000000001% chance of happening, doesn't really diminish my point.



Luffy having an uphill fight with Teach has a 0.00000000000000001% chance of happening? You've gone off the deep end Turrin. That is pretty much the standard formula for major Luffy fights. He fights opponents stronger than himself in a general sense, at the outset of the battle, but manages to beat them by pushing himself to new heights.


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## Turrin (Feb 4, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> How is something that amounts to a difference of *100-125 chapters* in our respective estimations of 5 arcs worth of time "nitpicking", Turrin?
> 
> Go ahead and explain yourself.


I thought we were talking about 3 arcs, now it's 5 arcs. If it's 5 arcs than the 40-45 chapter estimate your shipping is atrocious. We'd need like 12 chapter arcs, after these last 3 to get to the point of 40-45 chapter average for the first 5 of Part II. As for the next 5 after that, if there is even 10 arcs in Part II, there would have to be not a single arc the size of DR's potential 100 chapter arc, otherwise every other arc would need to be 22 chapters in that 5 arc cycle to have an average between 40-45, which is absolutely laughable. Beyond the chance of a DR style arc, at least some of the second batch of 5 Arcs will take place towards the end of the manga, the expectations that they'd average out to less than the first 5 arcs of Part II is equally atrocious.

At least if were talking a batch of three it's possible that the next three could average out 40-45, simply because Oda backs off after DR a bit.



> That's not an answer to the question. I asked if you expected Zoro's fight with an Admiral - as in the fight that he will have - to be less than extreme-diff when it happens. As I made clear I also don't believe it will happen at the 600 ch. mark and still be extreme-diff. But when it does, what diff will it be IYO?


Zoro usually has Mid to High diff with his enemies. Some times he he does have extreme diff, and I could see an Admiral being a good opponent to push him that far. So I could see anywhere from Mid to Extreme diff depending on when Zoro faces an Admiral in the story. However as I tend to believe the Straw-Hats will square off against Admirals sooner (relatively speaking) than later, I think it will probably be extreme-diff.



> 500 to 650 is 150 chapters. That's the at most you're looking for. Read more carefully. And sure. I don't think it's necessarily too crazy for 150 chapters to make a fight go from extreme-diff to mid diff. You have to keep in mind we're talking about chapters focused entirely on warfare and fighting here. It's, you know, a world war, where the SHs will be fighting the strongest people in the world. A time like that is bound to cause people to get stronger at a faster pace than an equivalent number of chapters where a lot of it is spent not really doing much else than running around and occasionally fighting a little.


I think it's fairly ridiculous that Fujitora could high to extreme diff a guy at the start of the war, and than by the end of the war would get Mid diff'd by him. Is it possible, sure, but it would rely on the One-Piece war turning into the Naruto war, where Zoro and Luffy are granted multiple huge power ups. 



> Jesus fucking christ Turrin. You just took the MOST EXTREME possibility and tried to use that to denounce my entire position, just to cover up your own lousy reading. Do you know why I put little "-" or "/" type signs between these numbers? It's to represent that there's a range of possible options which could go together in any number of ways. It doesn't mean I'm taking a stance for the most extreme possibilities. That is simply the widest I'm willing to stretch the range of possible outcomes.


I understand ranges fine. If you create a range you support your saying any number within that range could possible happen. That means you de-facto think it's possible that "at Chapter 550 Fujitora potentially high diffs Zoro, yet at least by chapter 650 Zoro could go from that to mid diffing Fujitora." Me saying I find the range nonsensical because it includes the possibility for this options, is perfectly legit. Also FYI, it was not the most extreme possibility your range allows for; Chapter 550 to Chapter 600 Zoro going from getting high diffed by Fujitora to Mid diffing him is also on the table according to your range.



> Is cherrypicking the combination of all the most extreme possibilities a person is willing to accept a personal hobby of yours or something? I never said I can see Zoro mid-diffing an Admiral and Luffy being stronger to the point where he'd low-diff one. Don't invent my positions for me, please.


Huh, it's more like please don't invent my position for me. 

_"*You *already said you could see Zoro Mid diffing Admirals at EOS, and* I *could easily see Luffy being stronger than Zoro "_

Do you notice the topic shift? I'll repeat, "YOU" indicate "YOU" could see Zoro mid diffing an Admiral, "I" could than see in that hypothetical Luffy being able to low diff an Admiral, especially one that may be weaker than Akainu, as being rational. I was asking "YOU" why that is not the case. 



> At any rate, you said that you think Luffy probably SHOULD be able to low-diff Fujitora at the end of the series. There is a big difference between "should" and something that may happen but with a very small chance (which I assure you is what most people here will tell you Luffy low-diffing Fujitora is).


Yes I believe Luffy "PROBABLY" should be able to Low diff Fujitora, to get more semantical I would say Low (High) diff, and I'm talking about current Fujitora. EOS-Fujitora, I'd probably turn the "should" into "could" as Fujitora "could" get stronger. The belief that Luffy "PROBABLY" should Low (High) diff DR-Fujitora comes from the fact that, I would expect Akainu to be stronger than DR-Fujitora due to his role in the story, and based on the myriad of handicaps WB had in the war and was still able to put up a competitive fight against Akainu, I think that Prime-WB "PROBABLY" should be able to Mid (Mid) diff Akainu at his best, and Luffy "PROBABLY" Should be at least slightly stronger than Prime-WB at EOS, therefore I could see EOS Luffy Mid (Low) diffing Akainu, which would than should push DR-Fujitora down just enough to be a Low (High) diff battle.


Now I include "PROBABLY", because this is what I feel is more likely, but at the same time I acknowledge it's not absolute. I use "Should" because it's what I feel would make the most sense in the narrative, not that it's the only possibility that could ever happen.



> It's still out of nowhere in the grand scheme of the series. But we've talked about this before. You apparently seem to think that Dragonball-style storytelling where god level folks pop up on short notice with some half-assed explanation is superior to the holistic, coherent storytelling that Oda and authors of other well written manga like FMA, which do a good job of establishing powers early on and sticking to them, clearly favors.


This isn't debatable, your definition of out of nowhere is absolute nonsense. The Gorosei aren't popping out of nowhere, they've been established as the men at the top, who have greatly influenced events in One-Piece, for hundreds of chapters now.

The only thing that is unknown at this point is their strength, but given their massive amount of resources and knowledge, it would not be out of nowhere for them to reach that strength "level" over the course of 450+ fucking chapters, which amounts to over half of the story so far. 

Like if the Gorosei diminished in strength due to age and they need some power to reverse the aging process and manage to achieve that by EOS, are you really going to fucking say, "herp da derp that was out of nowhere", "I mean it's not like Oda indicated multiples times the WG wanting to get their hands on DF that reverse aging, da derp" "or that Oda blatantly had a Gorsei holding a sword indicating they could be fighters hundreds of chapters ago derp da derp doo" And " he built it up even more over 450 chapters, but that's way to fucking fast for me to comprehend da derp derp"

That's only one example.



> Low-diffing is shitting on, in this context. Don't pretend otherwise for a second..


No it's not. Shitting on somone is Fodderizing them. Basically what Luffy was doing to random coliseum dudes, trolling them while riding around on Ucy. Low diff is what Luffy did to Sai or Harujin, which is being able to KO them while using one of his stronger attacks, the upper end of Low diff, would be something similar to Luffy vs Monet, where Luffy could still get a bit in trouble if caught off gourd by the person's fighting style, but once he figures that out he can beat the hell out of them relatively easily.



> If the ultimate combat power of the Marines/WG can be low-diffed, which by conventional standards is something like Luffy vs. Hody, an embarassing outclassing, then that's taking a figurative dump all over these people that have been highlighted consistently as absolute beasts


The ultimate fighting force of the Marines is all 3 (4 if we count the FA) Admirals. Luffy even if he can Low (High) diff Fujitora at the end of the series wouldn't be able to beat 4 Admirals, including Akainu, so it's not like he could watlz in and embarrass the Marines greatest fighting force, and they would still certainly be dangerous for any pirate on the seas. It would just mean that they would have to rely more on numbers or new talents when fighting an enemy like the EOS Pirate-King that surpassed the previous Pirate-King, which I think is pretty reasonable.

As for them being highlighted as beasts. That's Shonen 101, characters are built up as insane monsters, but than later are not that big of a deal. It's already happened multiple times in One Piece with characters like Crocodile and Lucci, and is currently happening with DD. In the Admirals cases they've been built up as even bigger monsters than these arc villains, but that's why I'm saying they will still pose a huge threat to Luffy for most of Part II, and continue to pose at least a minor threat at EOS to catch Luffy off guard with DF powers or through numerical advantage. 



> Most people here would call your assessment that Luffy "should" low-diff Admirals by EOS a joke. I don't think you alone calling my assessment of Luffy's endgame strength a joke is a very strong argument in light of that.


I don't care what most people think, so yeah...

Your point is a joke, because it goes against the spirit of the manga.



> Luffy having an uphill fight with Teach has a 0.00000000000000001% chance of happening? You've gone off the deep end Turrin. That is pretty much the standard formula for major Luffy fights. He fights opponents stronger than himself in a general sense, at the outset of the battle, but manages to beat them by


I was referring to Luffy not reach Gol Roger's level by the end of the series, not having an uphill battle against Teach. You know that, because I specifically quoted that portion of the post, and are now just trying to change the goal post in-order to not have to defend your previous joke of a point.


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## Raiden34 (Feb 4, 2015)

Fujitora high diff.


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## barreltheif (Feb 4, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the final war won't be the post-BB/Luffy/PK stuff. I'm saying the final war will be when Luffy _becomes_ PK. Raftel isn't the end of the series. It's a fakeout. It won't be that simple.
> 
> My conception of endgame OP is closer to:
> -> SHs make it to Raftel, they learn the lost history
> ...




Raftel is Raftel. It won't be the last arc, but it's still the island that no one has been able to reach for 24 years.
What you're saying is that Zoro (and Luffy too, I assume?) will be a little weaker than Fujitora during the final war. They'll be Sabo or Marco level. That means that when they reach Raftel, they'll be weaker than Sabo or Marco. Maybe pre-Mera Sabo level or something.
That doesn't seem right at all. Luffy should be yonkou level or stronger by the time he reaches Raftel.


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## Coruscation (Feb 4, 2015)

No, not really? For one obviously Luffy is not equatable to Zoro on a 1:1 basis. For two I certainly don't think current Sabo can give Fujitora an extreme diff fight. It's even questionable if he can give him a high diff fight. Marco could give him high, but probably not extreme, so Zoro would be stronger than him, and that's kind of, Zoro being stronger than the former WSM's first mate and still having a fair bit to go to reach his peak -- is that really _demeaning_ to him? I agree Luffy would be approximately Yonko level though - Luffy could likely beat Fujitora, and that pretty much makes him Yonko level, it's not as if any other pirate but Yonko level ones could beat an Admiral.

And if you have such problems with it being "Raftel" specifically just switch things around a bit. Make it Admiral fights --> Raftel --> a shorter final war without Admiral fights, or something. The point is, *Zoro vs. Fujitora being an extreme-diff fight 100-150 chapters before EOS is by no means a detriment to Zoro's strength*. I think saying so is underrating Issho.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> I thought we were talking about 3 arcs, now it's 5 arcs. If it's 5 arcs than the 40-45 chapter estimate your shipping is atrocious. We'd need like 12 chapter arcs, after these last 3 to get to the point of 40-45 chapter average for the first 5 of Part II.



We've been talking about 3-5 arcs since I first said 3-5 =/ Come on now, please.

And uhm, what? We're talking about the avg. length of the coming arcs after DR. Not the average length with these three first arcs counted into it. I offer the prediction that these 3 arcs together are going to have a higher than average length because they've all been pretty meaty story wise. I also agree the average will be higher than part 1, but seeing as part 1's average was probably like 25-30, there's no basis in that to conclude it will stay at the whopping high 60-65 average we're getting now.

You need to start reading my posts more carefully. It's getting very tiresome spending paragraphs just explaining myself because it's somehow going clean over your head.



> I think it's fairly ridiculous that Fujitora could high to extreme diff a guy at the start of the war, and than by the end of the war would get Mid diff'd by him. Is it possible, sure, but it would rely on the One-Piece war turning into the Naruto war, where Zoro and Luffy are granted multiple huge power ups.



Really, Turrin? Let's take a look at some OP history then. What do you think the difficulty would be if Luffy at around chapter 400 (EL) fought Luffy at around chapter 250 (Jaya/beginning of Skypiea)? Matchup aside, I'd say that's a pretty nice mid-diff. Maybe that's even being too generous in most people's views. Now yes, EL had a power-up within it. But again, we're talking 100-150 chapters of fighting in a world war here. The Straw Hats do plenty of growing even when they're not fighting very intensely at all. So why wouldn't they go through some considerably faster-than-average growth when they're in a war which consists of you know, fighting pretty much constantly?



> If you create a range you support your saying any number within that range could possible happen. That means you de-facto think it's possible that "at Chapter 550 Fujitora potentially high diffs Zoro, yet at least by chapter 650 Zoro could go from that to mid diffing Fujitora." Me saying I find the range nonsensical because it includes the possibility for this options, is perfectly legit.



No it's fucking not. You disliking one option within the range -- an extreme end option that, by assigning the range that way in the 1st place, obviously consider very unlikely -- doesn't do jack shit as an argument that every option within the range is nonsensical. Were you never taught intellectual honesty? You don't extrapolate the most absurd positions you can, assign them to your debate opponent and then call his entire argument ridiculous based on that.



> Do you notice the topic shift? I'll repeat, "YOU" indicate "YOU" could see Zoro mid diffing an Admiral, "I" could than see in that hypothetical Luffy being able to low diff an Admiral, especially one that may be weaker than Akainu, as being rational.



That's irrelevant, Turrin, because your opinion on Luffy/Zoro is not mine. I didn't say it out loud (nor did I have to, as it did not involve Luffy at the time) but if Zoro mid-diffs an Admiral then for me that would come with the qualifier that the gap between Luffy and Zoro is still very, very small at the end of the series.



> The belief that Luffy "PROBABLY" should Low (High) diff DR-Fujitora comes from the fact that, I would expect Akainu to be stronger than DR-Fujitora due to his role in the story, and based on the myriad of handicaps WB had in the war and was still able to put up a competitive fight against Akainu, I think that Prime-WB "PROBABLY" should be able to Mid (Mid) diff Akainu at his best, and Luffy "PROBABLY" Should be at least slightly stronger than Prime-WB at EOS, therefore I could see EOS Luffy Mid (Low) diffing Akainu, which would than should push DR-Fujitora down just enough to be a Low (High) diff battle.



And all that extrapolating falls to pieces in front of a single fact.

It's a fucking Admiral we're talking about.

There's a reason most of the forum will call the idea of Luffy low-diffing Admirals nonsensical. You're probably completely alone here in thinking this is the most likely option that "should" happen.



> This isn't debatable, your definition of out of nowhere is absolute nonsense. The Gorosei aren't popping out of nowhere, they've been established as the men at the top, who have greatly influenced events in One-Piece, for hundreds of chapters now.



*Them being Admiral low-diffing beasts is out of nowhere*. Nothing you say is going to change that. There hasn't been the slightest little clue that they reside on such a level of cataclysmic power that hasn't even been hinted at to exist in the OPverse.



> The ultimate fighting force of the Marines is all 3 (4 if we count the FA) Admirals.



No it isn't. Each individual Admiral is the ultimate combat power as they've been referred to as such by their lonesome. This has been cleared up long ago and I'm fairly sure you've been informed of it in past debates too.



> As for them being highlighted as beasts. That's Shonen 101, characters are built up as insane monsters, but than later are not that big of a deal.



Except, Turrin, the Admirals ARE the later. I know you can't see this because you've pulled the blinds with all that final villain god tier low-diffing the previous strongest crap down over your eyes but as everyone else on this forum can tell, Admirals are the endgame/near endgame antagonists of the series. They have been built up for literally longer than half the series has been running and consistently portrayed as at the top of the world and only incrementally having their true strengths revealed. Oda has done this consistent build-up for a reason.

It's like how Bradley and Mustang are made out to be absolute beasts really early on in FMA. And at the end they are still absolute beasts, two of the strongest characters. Now don't go crying about how there were god level people in FMA. There were, but that's a completely different matter, its mythology was completely different than anything that's been hinted at to exist in OP and that mythology enabling/implying immensely powerful forces was introduced early-mid series. 

_Good_ writing, even in Shonen, don't do this crap you're talking about. At least not with the most important and prestige-filled characters.



> Your point is a joke, because it goes against the spirit of the manga.



Oh, this is rich.

The "spirit of the manga" is Luffy becoming overwhelmingly powerful? Being unchallengeable, far above anyone else? Even being the definitive strongest?

No, it's bloody well not. It's a persistent principle of Oda's to make sure Luffy never feels like he's too powerful, like he's the definitive top guy. To allow rivals to actually keep up and significantly challenge him, and enemies often be stronger. Yes, "surpassing Roger" is indeed a theme but it seriously does. not. have. to. refer. to. strength. It not doing so would in fact go more hand in hand with the manga's overall spirit since the start. Luffy is going to surpass Roger in accomplishments for a certainty and he will have many years on the seas after that to keep becoming even stronger.



> I was referring to Luffy not reach Gol Roger's level by the end of the series, not having an uphill battle against Teach. You know that, because I specifically quoted that portion of the post, and are now just trying to change the goal post in-order to not have to defend your previous joke of a point.



So you were referring to something I never said, and didn't bother replying to what I did say? OK. If you were trying to refer to the statement I made about Luffy not becoming as strong as/stronger than Roger in the war but rather after more time spent sailing? That's not correct as you can, naturally, be on someone's level without being identical to them in power. Blackbeard will definitely reach Roger/WB's legendary level and Luffy will beat him. But you don't have to be stronger than someone overall to beat them in a fight. Luffy hasn't been stronger overall than any of the enemies he's beaten really. He's surpassed them later of course but it's a bit hard to surpass the FV "later".


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## Turrin (Feb 4, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> Raftel is Raftel. It won't be the last arc, but it's still the island that no one has been able to reach for 24 years.
> What you're saying is that Zoro (and Luffy too, I assume?) will be a little weaker than Fujitora during the final war. They'll be Sabo or Marco level. That means that when they reach Raftel, they'll be weaker than Sabo or Marco. Maybe pre-Mera Sabo level or something.
> That doesn't seem right at all. Luffy should be yonkou level or stronger by the time he reaches Raftel.



Yeah the idea that Luffy/Zoro would still be weaker than Current-Fujitora, even after the Straw-Hats make it to Raftel is definitely a  moment.

This is the same fricken island that none of the Yonkou have reached, so Luffy/Zoro lossing to current Fujitora implies that ether A) Yonkou still stronger than Luffy, and Yonkou-Crew > Straw-Hats, yet Straw-Hats achieved a goal that none of the Yonkou could  or B) DR-Fujitora > Yonkou


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## Turrin (Feb 4, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> We've been talking about 3-5 arcs since I first said 3-5 =/ Come on now, please.





Coruscation said:


> Your claims have been that the arc average will be 66-67 chapters (since you keep talking about 3 arcs = 200 chapters). I'm pretty sure my reply is a pretty good reply to that.
> .







> And uhm, what? We're talking about the avg. length of the coming arcs after DR. Not the average length with these three first arcs counted into it. I offer the prediction that these 3 arcs together are going to have a higher than average length because they've all been pretty meaty story wise. I also agree the average will be higher than part 1, but seeing as part 1's average was probably like 25-30, there's no basis in that to conclude it will stay at the whopping high 60-65 average we're getting now.


Using Part I's average, even a somewhat inflated one, is ridiculous when most of Part I's arcs had about half the cast of main characters that we currently have in Part II. But overall i'm done with this part of the discussion, because it doesn't even matter, as again I was referring to 6 arcs at the same pacing as the current 3 arcs, if you want to believe beyond hope there will be a bunch of 22 chapter arcs, that's up to you, but again has nothing to do with what i'm saying.



> Really, Turrin? Let's take a look at some OP history then. What do you think the difficulty would be if Luffy at around chapter 400 (EL) fought Luffy at around chapter 250 (Jaya/beginning of Skypiea)? Matchup aside, I'd say that's a pretty nice mid-diff. Maybe that's even being too generous in most people's views. Now yes, EL had a power-up within it. But again, we're talking 100-150 chapters of fighting in a world war here. The Straw Hats do plenty of growing even when they're not fighting very intensely at all. So why wouldn't they go through some considerably faster-than-average growth when they're in a war which consists of you know, fighting pretty much constantly?



First your moving the goal post. Fujitora is extreme to high diffing Zoro in your example. Chapter-250-Luffy is not beating Chapter-250-Luffy :rofl The are equivalent in strength. So already it's an easier goal post.

Secondly Luffy not only grew stronger during that time-period passively, but he gained multiple power ups (G2 and G3) that many feel were "asspullish" to put it lightly. 

Basically what you've shown is that Luffy with multiple "asspullish" power ups and passive growth could transverse a portion of the difficulty gap that you set up for Zoro. Which means he'd need yet another "asspullish" power up to transverse the rest of the distance set up here. 

So Luffy (the-main-character) w/ passive growth + 3 "asspullish" power ups could transverse the distance which your requiring Zoro to transverse during that time-frame.

That's literally no different than what I said:

_"Is it possible, sure, but it would rely on the One-Piece war turning into the Naruto war, where Zoro and Luffy are granted multiple huge power ups."_

So if Luffy gets G4, G5, G6, and Zoro gets Ashura Mark 2, Mark III, and Mark IV, your range becomes plausible.



> No it's fucking not. You disliking one option within the range -- an extreme end option that, by assigning the range that way in the 1st place, obviously consider very unlikely -- doesn't do jack shit as an argument that every option within the range is nonsensical. Were you never taught intellectual honesty? You don't extrapolate the most absurd positions you can, assign them to your debate opponent and then call his entire argument ridiculous based on that.




Range, "The area of variation between upper and lower limits on a particular scale"

If I find the upper limits that a Range charts to be nonsensical, than I find the entire Range nonsensical, because that is what a Range is suppose to be, a scale of upper to lower limits. If the upper limits don't make sense, than the range needs to be adjusted, not you complaining to me that i'm only looking at part of the range.



> That's irrelevant, Turrin, because your opinion on Luffy/Zoro is not mine.


I didn't say it was, again I said "I", repeat it with me "I", "I". "I"



> I didn't say it out loud (nor did I have to, as it did not involve Luffy at the time) but if Zoro mid-diffs an Admiral then for me that would come with the qualifier that the gap between Luffy and Zoro is still very, very small at the end of the series.


So once again back to my original question, does that mean you can't see any scenario where the gap between Luffy and Zoro is larger than that, in hypothetical of Zoro being able to mid diff an Admiral. Literally that was all I was asking you....



> It's a fucking Admiral we're talking about.


I'm wait for an actually coherent argument that follows this statement......still waiting.....  



> Them being Admiral low-diffing beasts is out of nowhere. Nothing you say is going to change that. There hasn't been the slightest little clue that they reside on such a level of cataclysmic power that hasn't even been hinted at to exist in the OPverse.


A) I didn't say they could low-diff an Admiral, so that's a Straw-Man
B) Even if they could Low diff an Admiral, after 450 chapters, that's not out of nowhere by any definition or comprehension of that statement



> No it isn't. Each individual Admiral is the ultimate combat power as they've been referred to as such by their lonesome. This has been cleared up long ago and I'm fairly sure you've been informed of it in past debates too.


So Fujitora > Kizaru + Greenbull + Akainu + Fujitora, because he's the Marines Greatest Fighting force 

Yeah Admirals are the strongest in the Marines, that's what the text means. It doesn't mean that assembling 1 Admiral is the Greatest Fight Force of the Marines, that would fall to all 4 Admirals combined.



> Admirals ARE the later. I know you can't see this because you've pulled the blinds with all that final villain god tier low-diffing the previous strongest crap down over your eyes but as everyone else on this forum can tell, Admirals are the endgame/near endgame antagonists of the series.


Major antagonists yes, penultimate antagonists extremely doubtful. 



> It's like how Bradley and Mustang are made out to be absolute beasts really early on in FMA. And at the end they are still absolute beasts, two of the strongest characters. Now don't go crying about how there were god level people in FMA. There were, but that's a completely different matter, its mythology was completely different than anything that's been hinted at to exist in OP and that mythology enabling/implying immensely powerful forces was introduced early-mid series.


Beating an Admiral depending on the one with Low (High) to Mid (Low) diff doesn't make someone a god. A god is what we see in Naruto where Kaguya could fodderize 5 Kages w/ one hand. So this is also a nonsense argument on your part.



> Good writing, even in Shonen, don't do this crap you're talking about. At least not with the most important and prestige-filled characters.


It wouldn't be bad writing if the MC after defeating the FV could Low (High) diff an Admiral or Mid (Low) diff an Admiral, as there is the ground work in place for that. WB extremely handicapped still matched one, and Roger being stronger than Prime-WB wouldn't be shocking at all. BB has WB's Gura Fruit, so he has the potential to reach Prime-WB "level", but than has the Yami Fruit to take him even further than that. Luffy will be stronger than the final villain at EOS and most likely Roger, so him being even stronger than that doesn't come out of nowhere.

Coming out of nowhere would be some who could own all 4 Admirals at once or something to that effect, which hasn't at all been established.



> The "spirit of the manga" is Luffy becoming overwhelmingly powerful? Being unchallengeable, far above anyone else? Even being the definitive strongest?


Luffy surpassing Roger to become an even more successful PK, yeah that's pretty much the spirit of the manga.



> Yes, "surpassing Roger" is indeed a theme but it seriously does. not. have. to. refer. to. strength. It not doing so would in fact go more hand in hand with the manga's overall spirit since the start. Luffy is going to surpass Roger in accomplishments for a certainty and he will have many years on the seas after that to keep becoming even stronger.


Last time I check one piece was a Shonen-Action Manga, so it's highly likely he will surpass Roger in strength, but that's not even the topic here, the topic here is Luffy not even becoming as strong as Roger, which once again would be extremely unlikely.



> So you were referring to something I never said,


_"No, the most minimalistic estimate is that Luffy won't become as powerful as Roger by EOS."_

Yup you didn't say that at all.................................


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## tanman (Feb 4, 2015)

I question whether Fujitora can beat Marco.
Y'all question whether Marco can give him a high diff fight.

Can't wait till people start dehyping the admirals like they've been dehyping Doflamingo as of this arc.

Regardless, it's amazing that this incredibly unbalanced topic has managed to spawn this kind of argument.


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