# Gear 4 Luffy vs rest of the crew



## Sure (Apr 24, 2015)

As far as we've seen them... so no ashura zoro, etc

IC but in mood to kill.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 24, 2015)

I wonder what happens if this luffy gets cut or stabbed by zoro


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## Bernkastel (Apr 24, 2015)

Luffy 2-shots Zolo,
1,5-shots Sanji,
0,5-shots Franky,
0,2-shots Robin
0,3-shots Chopper
0,1-shots Brook
-1-shots Usopp
-3-shots Nami
So overall 0,6-shots his whole crew


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 24, 2015)

You mean how much time Luffy needs to destroy them?


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## Tenma (Apr 24, 2015)

Zoro and Sanji will suffice.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 24, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Zoro and Sanji will suffice.



^What he says, the time Luffy needs to beat Zoro and Sanji is enough  to show how much time he needs to destroy all the crew.


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## Tenma (Apr 24, 2015)

Man we got dem Luffy wankers saying he can solo the whole crew and dem Zoro wankers saying he is stronger than Luffy and can also beat the whole crew. Damn, why aren't there any Sanji wankers?

Oh right.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

Zoro alone could push G4 Luffy to mid/high-diff and wirh Sanji&rest of crew backing him up? I don't see Luffy winning this.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 24, 2015)

The topic about this thread should be about how much time will it take or to how difficult will it be.

I don't think he'll need to use G4 for too long, with G4 Luffy one shoots Zoro and Sanji easily, then he can defeat the rest with just G2.


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## King plasma (Apr 24, 2015)

Luffy will never ever be able to beat Zoro and Sanji at the same time let alone the entire crew.


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## kidgogeta (Apr 24, 2015)

G4 Luffy isn't beating Zoro and Sanji together, let alone the whole crew. That's a new level of absurd.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 24, 2015)

Zoro admited that the whole crew except Luffy, working together, wouldn't be able to defeat a half defeated Lucci.

Luffy could, since that moment Luffy has been more powerful than the rest of the crew together.


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## Dunno (Apr 24, 2015)

Zoro plus any other crewmate will suffice. Zoro alone would give Luffy at least extreme diff.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 24, 2015)

Zoro needed help to defeat Pica. Luffy can defeat all DD's crew with mid diff.


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## Freechoice (Apr 24, 2015)

Luffy beats Sanji and Zoro mid diff

stomps the rest


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## DavyChan (Apr 24, 2015)

Dunno said:


> Zoro plus any other crewmate will suffice. Zoro alone would give Luffy at least extreme diff.



lol, ur the only one sticking with this zoro thing. it was already stupid to say zoro would give luffy extreme diff before this (when dumb zoro hadn't had a real one on one fight since Kaku), but now u still want to say it. lol. #lol


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## Dunno (Apr 24, 2015)

DavyChan said:


> lol, ur the only one sticking with this zoro thing. it was already stupid to say zoro would give luffy extreme diff before this (when dumb zoro hadn't had a real one on one fight since Kaku), but now u still want to say it. lol. #lol



Now why don't you go watch youtube or something.


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## DavyChan (Apr 24, 2015)

Dunno said:


> Now why don't you go watch youtube or something.



change ur avie. no1 wants to see tht ugly sht all the time.


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## Beckman (Apr 24, 2015)

Not sure if he can handle Franky Centaurus.


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## Ruse (Apr 24, 2015)

Luffy loses, Zoro and Sanji will be enough.


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## Dunno (Apr 24, 2015)

DavyChan said:


> change ur avie. no1 wants to see tht ugly sht all the time.



Woah, are you calling my absolute favourite character Jozu ugly?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 24, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Man we got dem Luffy wankers saying he can solo the whole crew and dem Zoro wankers saying he is stronger than Luffy and can also beat the whole crew. Damn, why aren't there any Sanji wankers?
> 
> Oh right.



Yeah 
Sanji fans are sensible, upstanding, non wankers


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## DavyChan (Apr 24, 2015)

Dunno said:


> Woah, are you calling my absolute favourite character Jozu ugly?



Well he is. and that close-up isn't doing him any good.

Next time instead of bashing Nami, you could make your favorite a character thas Oda cares enough about to give even a hint of screen time.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Yeah
> Sanji fans are sensible, upstanding, non wankers


Not that they can even wank even if they're insensible, non-upstanding, top wankers


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## Tenma (Apr 24, 2015)

Fuck you, I will start.

Sanji is stronger than Zoro by portrayal since he got pit against Vergo in PH while Zoro got pit against fodder Monet. Both successfully achieved their objectives (saving Tashigi and saving Tashigi). 

Sanji outperformed Jinbe in Fishman Island (vastly superior performance against that blowfish) while Jinbe made a joke out of G2 Luffy. Sanji mid diffs G2 Luffy. 

Sanji got praised by DD as strong while he said Law bored him with his pathetic attacks. Sanji>Law.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 








Nope, try again


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## Tenma (Apr 24, 2015)

Pfft

All I see is Sanji tanking strings with minor damage while Law lost an arm and got skewered by them. And Sanji was at like...lemme come up with an arbitrary number...yeah 20% because he let Viola beat him up.

And Sanji was also at 20% because Nami was a useless slut in his body int he Vergo fight! Still would have won, like a cracked leg means anything in One Piece. 

Zoro only won Monet because Monet was exhausted from battling all the SHs and already wounded by Tashigi anyway.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

Even though Law saved Sanji? 



the basic 5 color string sent Sanji silly, and Law was 5% full power because he fought Fujitora prior to this



Vergo absolutely trashed Sanji with a normal kick with sheer leg strength while Sanji was specialized in it, Caesar's a fodder, one gastanet from fodders won't do much to Sanji's body, so he's 80% full power

Zoro beat her with intimadation only though.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 24, 2015)

Wave said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, cracking a non weight bearing thin frail bone with a weight bearing thick bone. Wow! Much feat!
Fact: Sanji Matched his moving strength and momentum while standing still.

Also, doflamingo sent so many people flying with that move 
Law, luffy, Smoker 



> Even though Law saved Sanji?



Hax saved by hax. Hax that hasn't even been used yet against Luffy. Hax that even jozu couldn't escape. HAXXXX. Infact, he pushed Doflamingo to use it against him. Have luffy or Law done that? NO? Sanji>Law+Luffy


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## Tenma (Apr 24, 2015)

Pfft, Sanji actually pushed DD to use Parasite. I bet Luffy will push him to use Parasite as well where Lawl failed, proving them to be low-top tier. And Robin and Cav recently saved Law, I guess they are stronger than Law too. 

String is string, why would 5 colored string be any weaker than Athlete's kick, Fullbright and Overheat.

Yeah that 20% weakness was the straw that broke Sanji's leg. If Sanji was at full strength Vergo would have to join Shiki in the amputees club. 

Yeah, Zoro is only good for scaring women. Given how sexist One Piece is even Tonjit could have done the same. 

Sanji>>Jinbe>Luffy=Law true facts.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 24, 2015)

Wave said:


> Zoro beat her with intimadation only though.



So inconsistent. 

This chick literally willingly suicide bombed herself and she's worried about getting cut? 
She was full and well willing to get injured when she fought zoro, even by her own acknowledgement he was stronger and later she pisses herself? 
She gives her heart up, knowing it could be stabbed, and she still pisses herself against zoro 

Inconsistent 

And, he didn't beat her. Tagashi did


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Yeah
> Sanji fans are sensible, upstanding, non wankers





IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Wow, cracking a non weight bearing thin frail bone with a weight bearing thick bone. Wow! Much feat!
> Fact: Sanji Matched his moving strength and momentum while standing still.
> 
> Also, doflamingo sent so many people flying with that move
> Law, luffy, Smoker


Vergo wasn't even serious and he is not specialized in kicking which was Sanji's forte and yet Vergo almost destroyed him in his fighting forte: kicking

Sanji flew the furthest.





> Hax saved by hax. Hax that hasn't even been used yet against Luffy. Hax that even jozu couldn't escape. HAXXXX




Hax is still a power though


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Pfft, Sanji actually pushed DD to use Parasite. I bet Luffy will push him to use Parasite as well where Lawl failed, proving them to be low-top tier. And Robin and Cav recently saved Law, I guess they are stronger than Law too.
> 
> String is string, why would 5 colored string be any weaker than Athlete's kick, Fullbright and Overheat.
> 
> ...



Basically, Sanji is such a scrub that Doffy decide that parasite will suffice in embarassing Sanji

"Luffy>Law>Jimbei>Sanji" stated in SBS #51


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## Tenma (Apr 24, 2015)

DD resorted to that hax because he knew he stood no chance against Sanji without it.

There's a reason why he cant be bothered to use it on fodders like Law, G2 Luffy and Smoker.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> So inconsistent.
> 
> This chick literally willingly suicide bombed herself and she's worried about getting cut?
> She was full and well willing to get injured when she fought zoro, even by her own acknowledgement he was stronger and later she pisses herself?
> ...



Nothing inconsistent, Monet being able to be of worth to King Doffy is much more motivating than dying without any purposes and in one hit. Tashigi is Zoro's right toe man.


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## Tenma (Apr 24, 2015)

Wave said:


> Basically, Sanji is such a scrub that Doffy decide that parasite will suffice in embarassing Sanji
> 
> "Luffy>Law>Jimbei>Sanji" stated in SBS #51



SBS 51...how long ago was that? 

Sanji has long exceeded them.

The only person DD succeeded in embarassing was himself when the Sunny blasted away with Caesar. Getting temporarily trapped in Parasite was all part of Sanji's keikaku.

Too bad Law had to give in to some petty grudge over DD's shotacon brother and fuck everything up.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

Tenma said:


> DD resorted to that hax because he knew he stood no chance against Sanji without it.
> 
> There's a reason why he cant be bothered to use it on fodders like Law, G2 Luffy and Smoker.


No, parasite only works on fools so far(Jozu, Sanji, etc.)


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 24, 2015)

Tenma said:


> DD resorted to that hax because he knew he stood no chance against Sanji without it.
> 
> There's a reason why he cant be bothered to use it on fodders like Law, G2 Luffy and Smoker.



THIS!

Sanji> Law+Luffy.
Doflamingo was toying with them, but he resorted to it right away with sanji!
Also, doflamingo was using it on Smoker too, as seen with the way he was holding his fingers over him so he could pin him down.

:sanji


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

Tenma said:


> SBS 51...how long ago was that?
> 
> Sanji has long exceeded them.
> 
> The only person DD succeeded in embarassing was himself. Getting temporarily trapped in Parasite was all part of Sanji's keikaku.



It was 3 years ago, 1 year before Sanji's sudden disappearance from the manga because he's such a scrub

"Doflamingo disagree"- SBS #64


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> THIS!
> 
> Sanji> Law+Luffy.
> Doflamingo was toying with them, but he resorted to it right away with sanji!
> ...



SBS #51 confirmed that Sanji is weaker than Luffy, Law, and Jimbei.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

SBS #78 states that all of those were part of Doflamingo's "keikaku", Kaidou is in fact Doflamingo's 3rd dark knight that was imbued with life force from CotC-SBS #83


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## Tenma (Apr 24, 2015)

DD about to get killed by his own puppet. Truly Shakespearean and poetic.

Of course it was Sanji who manipulated this development behind the scenes ala Alabasta and EL.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

This is why you can't play around with puppets that has life force from yourself. 

SBS #94 states that Sanji was in fact, part of Doflamingo's fighting squad executive, all of Sanji's mastermind level plans was in fact, made by Doflamingo via den den mushi(joker-jet black version).


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 24, 2015)

Sanji in the middle, with his scrubs Luffy and zoro on the side. Sanji>>

C O N F I R M E D
O 
N
F
I
R
M
E
D


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

SBS #5 says that Sanji will always be behind Luffy and Zoro. 

C O N F I R M        F A C T S       B Y       O D A
O
N
F
I
R
M

F
A
C
T
S


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## Bernkastel (Apr 24, 2015)

Wave said:


> SBS #5 says that Sanji will always be behind Luffy and Zoro.
> 
> C O N F I R M        F A C T S       B Y       O D A
> O
> ...



Never in quality


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## Etherborn (Apr 24, 2015)

Wave said:


> SBS #5 says that Sanji will always be behind Luffy and Zoro.
> 
> C O N F I R M        F A C T S       B Y       O D A
> O
> ...



Can I get a link to that? I just checked SBS volume 5 and I didn't see anything like that.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Never in quality


that one thing Sanji has over Luffy and Zoro.


Transcendent Samurai said:


> Can I get a link to that? I just checked SBS volume 5 and I didn't see anything like that.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Apr 24, 2015)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> Can I get a link to that? I just checked SBS volume 5 and I didn't see anything like that.



 **


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## Etherborn (Apr 24, 2015)

Wave said:


> that one thing Sanji has over Luffy and Zoro.



I keep clicking on skully but nothing is happening. I must therefore come to the conclusion that you have not provided me with a link.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> I keep clicking on skully but nothing is happening. I must therefore come to the conclusion that you have not provided me with a link.



True Facts straight from SBS #5



			
				Eiichiro Oda said:
			
		

> O: Sanji will always lag behind Luffy and Zoro in terms of strength throughout the whole storyline and will not change.


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## Etherborn (Apr 24, 2015)

Wave said:


> True Facts straight from SBS #5



I have given up trying to click on any part of this post, as it is clear that you still have not provided a link good sir. I will continue to wait patiently for said link.


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## Amol (Apr 24, 2015)

Nami is enough to beat Luffy.
Fodders like Zoro and Sanji are not needed here .
Infact She can beat those three together. It is already canon.


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## Kaiser (Apr 24, 2015)

Zoro cuts him in half when he bounces around like an idiot


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 24, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> Zoro cuts him in half when he bounces around like an idiot



Then he realise that he was all a dream, that he was in a coma for 30 years after Luffy crushed his skull with his bare hands.


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## batman22wins (Apr 24, 2015)

Luffy beats Zoro because Zoro can't go all out. He wrecks the rest of the crew.


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## Extravlad (Apr 24, 2015)

> Zoro needed help to defeat Pica. Luffy can defeat all DD's crew with mid diff.


Luffy couldn't even defeat Monet using his hardened CoA.
Zoro fodderized her without having to use haki.


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## Etherborn (Apr 24, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> Luffy couldn't even defeat Monet using his hardened CoA.
> Zoro fodderized her without having to use haki.



Keep clinging to this irrelevant fight as your last hope. You only get more entertaining as the story progresses.


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 24, 2015)

I honestly believe base Luffy can beat Sanji with the high end of mid difficulty. G2, he low difs. He's way faster, way stronger, way more durable, way better reaction time, way better Haki, etc. G4 Luffy, Sanji is not a factor. Zoro on the other hand is Luffy's counter, and his feats are insane, Zoro can probably tank 3 or 4 of Luffy's Kong guns since Doflamingo has taken several hits and is still trucking, but Zoro can probably one shot Luffy with his strongest slash. 

I don't think regular Zoro can tag him though, so Luffy, high difficulty.


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## Extravlad (Apr 24, 2015)

> Keep clinging to this irrelevant fight as your last hope. You only get more entertaining as the story progresses.


It's not like there hasn't been more battles where Zoro totally outperforms Luffy.

Hyouzou casually stop Luffy's jet pistol, then poison him and get to be called "strong" by Luffy.
Zoro 1 shot a much more stronger and powerful Hyouzou.

Luffy couldn't even damage the Punk Hazard Dragon, Zoro killed him in less than a second.


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## ScottofFury (Apr 24, 2015)

Luffy defeats them, Zoro is the only threat. Sanji has been very disappointing timeskip.


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## Gohara (Apr 24, 2015)

Zoro, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Brook, Franky, Usopp, and Nami win with mid to high difficulty.  Zoro has the firepower to land good blows on Luffy, and he should have plenty of openings due to the help he has.  Sanji should be able to land decent blows against Luffy as well considering Bellamy is capable of doing so.  The same can be said about Monster Point Chopper and to a lesser extent Robin and Franky, although they likely wouldn't deal Luffy much notable damage.


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## Dunno (Apr 24, 2015)

DavyChan said:


> Well he is. and that close-up isn't doing him any good.
> 
> Next time instead of bashing Nami, you could make your favorite a character thas Oda cares enough about to give even a hint of screen time.



When have I ever bashed Nami? 

She's my fifth favourite SH for Goyf's sake. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't know what I've ever done to incur your wrath, but it must be something really serious. If I've ever killed a parent of yours or something, please accept my deepest and most humble apologies. It will not happen again.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> It's not like there hasn't been more battles where Zoro totally outperforms Luffy.
> 
> Hyouzou casually stop Luffy's jet pistol, then poison him and get to be called "strong" by Luffy.
> Zoro 1 shot a much more stronger and powerful Hyouzou.
> ...



That's where G4 comes to play, which puts Luffy slightly ahead of Zoro. 

It's hard to get better portrayal than Oda's favorite.


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## Bohemian Knight (Apr 24, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Zoro needed help to defeat Pica. Luffy can defeat all DD's crew with mid diff.



Zoro needed help to beat Pica BEFORE he killed the royal fodders. Zoro didn't need that shit to win


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## Dunno (Apr 24, 2015)

Bohemian Knight said:


> Zoro needed help to beat Pica BEFORE he killed the royal fodders. Zoro didn't need that shit to win



That's Zuhaiz you're responding to. Might as well try to talk sense into a rock. Just ignore him and he'll go away like all trolls before him.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 25, 2015)

Based on feats he might be able to win with high-extreme diff.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 25, 2015)

Dunno said:


> That's Zuhaiz you're responding to. Might as well try to talk sense into a rock. Just ignore him and he'll go away like all trolls before him.



Speaking of rock, that's Pica level, rock level.



Bohemian Knight said:


> Zoro needed help to beat Pica BEFORE he killed the royal fodders. Zoro didn't need that shit to win



Pica was always able to escape from Zoro, thanks to others Zoro was able to caught Pica, otherwise Zoro wouldn't have been able to touch Pica.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 27, 2015)

Are you crazy or what?! Zoro is probably still equal to Luffy like he used to be and he even didn't show his best yet because people like Pica is fodder compared to his current skill!

Zoro alone could deal with Luffy's G4 on equal grounds if he uses all he has (and has yet to use) and starts to apply Armament Haki Hardening to all his super attacks including the advanced ones!

I've seen such foolish topics even at the time when Luffy started to use G2 and G3 and later Yellow Databook confirmed that Zoro is roughly equal to Luffy on his own, let alone Zoro + the others! They even gave problems to Oars that was a super gigantic uber-powered Luffy!


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## Magentabeard (Apr 27, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> Are you crazy or what?! Zoro is probably still equal to Luffy like he used to be and he even didn't show his best yet because people like Pica is fodder compared to his current skill!
> 
> Zoro alone could deal with Luffy's G4 on equal grounds if he uses all he has (and has yet to use) and starts to apply Armament Haki Hardening to all his super attacks including the advanced ones!
> 
> I've seen such foolish topics even at the time when Luffy started to use G2 and G3 and later Yellow Databook confirmed that Zoro is roughly equal to Luffy on his own, let alone Zoro + the others! They even gave problems to Oars that was a super gigantic uber-powered Luffy!



Wow... a diehard Luffy=Zoro advocate


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 27, 2015)

Magentabeard said:


> Wow... a diehard Luffy=Zoro advocate







YEAHHHH I'M BACK!!!!


Even though we are not back in the old days when Yellow Databook was the law... Now we have to say: Luffy and Zoro are probably roughly equal but we cannot say yet!


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## Kai (Apr 27, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> It's not like there hasn't been more battles where Zoro totally outperforms Luffy.
> 
> Hyouzou casually stop Luffy's jet pistol, then poison him and get to be called "strong" by Luffy.
> Zoro 1 shot a much more stronger and powerful Hyouzou.
> ...


No one's denying Zoro is better suited to fight certain opponents.

Luffy's _clearly_ above his league though.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 27, 2015)

If let's say that Zoro had 2200 dourikis, Luffy would have 4000.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 27, 2015)

Kai said:


> Luffy's _clearly_ above his league though.



Hahahahaha! Clearly by what?! 



Zuhaitz said:


> If let's say that Zoro had 2200 dourikis, Luffy would have 4000.



Again with Douriki stuff?!

You didn't even get over that?


Luffy = Zoro in Enies Lobby arc, stated canonically.



Luffy vs 4000 Douriki = deadly battle

Zoro vs 2200 Douriki = mid difficulty battle


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 27, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> Hahahahaha! Clearly by what?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Luffy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Zoro in EL stated canonically.

Zoro admitted that even with the help of Franky, Sanji, Robin, Ussop, Nami and Chopper he would have no chance of winning against injured and half defeated Lucci.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 27, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Luffy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Zoro in EL stated canonically.
> 
> Zoro admitted that even with the help of Franky, Sanji, Robin, Ussop, Nami and Chopper he would have no chance of winning against injured and half defeated Lucci.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! 

  



Please............. Hahahaha!! I've been missing here long since for such things to proliferate...


Let's return to reality! 



No, Zoro never said it sorry! He just said Lucci is a dangerous opponent and if they would fight him they might get injured and separated again missing the only chance to escape Buster Call!


JUST that!
And Zoro and the others were not full health too for that matter! 



Yellow Databook states Luffy = Zoro in EL arc and no way you can deny it for sure!


The question is if it's still valid now in the post-TS... And it's still unknown!


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## Imagine (Apr 27, 2015)

Why are you guys taking this bait? OL pls


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 27, 2015)

You know, Luffy > Zoro common-placers are always around... I'm here to prove that Luffy = Zoro! At least for the pre-timeskip because it has been officially stated and it's no point on arguing again about Lucci, Kaku and the rest... The difference in the difficulties of these battles is self-explanatory!

The debate is open for the post timeskip........... To me the idea of Luffy = Zoro is still valid and the most probable... But until Zoro will show all and/or there will be a statement, we will be stuck...

Gear 4 is probably stronger than anything Zoro has shown so far, but Zoro never pushed himself to the limit, so it's not safe to assume anything...


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## Intus Legere (Apr 27, 2015)

Honestly, I don't see Luffy beating Zoro and Sanji together. I don't see Luffy beating even a full health Doflamingo by himself, or else Law's contribution in the fight would be meaningless — and I'd say Zoro and Sanji can beat Doflamingo together convincingly.


[badjokes]



goldsaint13 said:


> Luffy = Zoro!



You're going too far. Luffy is equal to Zoro factorial?



Kai said:


> No one's denying Zoro is better suited to fight certain opponents.



Like the ones who more than Luffy can handle. 


[/badjokes]


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Apr 27, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> Hahahahaha! Clearly by what?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mid diff battle is what it took Zoro to take down Pica
Did he have it as easy against Kaku?


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## Luke (Apr 27, 2015)

Luffy gets taken out. 

The G4 wank is some of the most ridiculous shit I've read on here in a while. Yes, it's an impressive power up. No, it doesn't make Luffy 10x stronger.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 28, 2015)

Intus Legere said:


> Honestly, I don't see Luffy beating Zoro and Sanji together. I don't see Luffy beating even a full health Doflamingo by himself, or else Law's contribution in the fight would be meaningless ? and I'd say Zoro and Sanji can beat Doflamingo together convincingly.



Of course! Many forget this! Law did half of the work... That's the sole reason why Luffy is making it... Luffy or Zoro, just like Law himself, cannot defeat a full health DD...



> You're going too far. Luffy is equal to Zoro factorial?



 At least roughly...



Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> Mid diff battle is what it took Zoro to take down Pica
> Did he have it as easy against Kaku?



Uhm... No, against Pica it's low difficulty...

Difficulty is measured also by his condition after the fight...

Zoro vs Pica: no injuries, little fatigue

Zoro vs Kaku: some scratches, moderate fatigue

Luffy vs Lucci: almost dead, unable to move



Luke said:


> Luffy gets taken out.
> 
> The G4 wank is some of the most ridiculous shit I've read on here in a while. Yes, it's an impressive power up. No, it doesn't make Luffy 10x stronger.



Of course! G4 Luffy vs Zoro using the best he has would be already a deadly battle... G4 Luffy would be owned by Zoro + Sanji doing their best and collaborating!


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 28, 2015)

You use databook as a trustworthy source material 

Zoro did said that they'll die if they fought half defeated Lucci.

Luffy=Lucci>Half Defeated Lucci>Mugiwara bar Luffy>Zoro

In other words Luffy>>>Zoro


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 28, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> You use databook as a trustworthy source material



They are officially canon and give canon informations (even naming unnamed characters) unless the manga says otherwise!
Your opinions mean nothing in comparison!



> Zoro did said that they'll die if they fought half defeated Lucci.



*HE DID NOT!!!*

He said: "If we get involved we might get separated again and lose the chance to escape!"

You can't change his words at your usage!



> Luffy=Lucci>Half Defeated Lucci>Mugiwara bar Luffy>Zoro
> 
> In other words Luffy>>>Zoro



In your dreams!

Reality is Luffy = Zoro

Mugiwara bar Luffy can even resist to Oars and Oars >>>>>>>> Luffy


Dream on...


----------



## Zuhaitz (Apr 28, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


>


----------



## CaptainCommanderRenji (Apr 28, 2015)

We haven't seen  what Zoro is truly capable yet. Same goes for Luffy. We haven't seen his gear 4 finishers yet. Without any restrictions Zoro + crew could most likely take this, but when restricted to current feats I would give this to Luffy.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 28, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


>



I know... I'm used to it... When "Luffy > Zoro common-placers" faces a "Luffy = Zoro truth-bringer" the result is always a joke post... 



CaptainCommanderRenji said:


> We haven't seen  what Zoro is truly capable yet. Same goes for Luffy. We haven't seen his gear 4 finishers yet. Without any restrictions Zoro + crew could most likely take this, but when restricted to current feats I would give this to Luffy.



That's right! But even restricted to what Zoro has shown so far (his floor-mopping from fodder) he can probably still win with even only Sanji's help!


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 28, 2015)

Luffy is fighting on equal ground with DD. Zoro needed help to defeat Pica....


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 28, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Luffy is fighting on equal ground with DD.



 After Law had blasted his inner organs yes, even Nami will be able to kill him when he will be KO...... 



> Zoro needed help to defeat Pica....



To drive him out of his stone hideout and then he owned him without even an advanced technique........ 

I wonder how much help would Pica need to even injure Zoro...  



Anyway.... Current Luffy may be above Zoro by a little bit or they may be still equal, no one knows and no one will know until there will be some kind of comparison......... In the past they were stated equals instead!


----------



## Kai (Apr 28, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> Anyway.... Current Luffy may be above Zoro by a little bit or they may be still equal, no one knows and no one will know until there will be some kind of comparison......... In the past they were stated equals instead!


Shanks may be above Buggy a little bit or they may still be equal, no one knows and no one will know until there will be some kind of comparison...... In the past they were stated and shown to belong to the same crew on the same pirate ship!

To hell with contextual clues and foreshadowing if everything must be stated.

Luffy fights all the bosses. Zoro doesn't. Therefore Luffy is stronger than Zoro. It doesn't get much simpler than that.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 28, 2015)

Kai said:


> Shanks may be above Buggy a little bit or they may still be equal, no one knows and no one will know until there will be some kind of comparison...... In the past they were stated and shown to belong to the same crew on the same pirate ship!



Luffy and Zoro are stated equal 2 years ago, Shanks and Bagy are never stated equal even when they were on Roger's Ship, let alone years later...



> To hell with contextual clues and foreshadowing if everything must be stated.
> 
> Luffy fights all the bosses. Zoro doesn't. Therefore Luffy is stronger than Zoro. It doesn't get much simpler than that.



These are called common-places, check the dictionary...


Stupid people lacking intelligence may believe easy common-places... Intelligent ones analyze the various situations and discovers that Zoro never tried to defeat the same bosses as Luffy under the same conditions failing and he defeated his weaker opponents much easier than Luffy did with bosses! Logic tells that Luffy and Zoro are at least close, otherwise their battles would have the same intensity despite being against different level opponents...


But not everyone are gifted with logic and intelligence... Others have them but WANT Luffy to be stronger because they like common-places of the main character being unbeatble...


Reality is another thing though....


----------



## Kai (Apr 28, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> Luffy and Zoro are stated equal 2 years ago, Shanks and Bagy are never stated equal even when they were on Roger's Ship, let alone years later...


Where they stated to be equal and under what context?



			
				goldsaint13 said:
			
		

> Stupid people lacking intelligence may believe easy common-places... Intelligent ones analyze the various situations and discovers that Zoro never tried to defeat the same bosses as Luffy under the same conditions failing and he defeated his weaker opponents much easier than Luffy did with bosses! Logic tells that Luffy and Zoro are at least close, otherwise their battles would have the same intensity despite being against different level opponents...
> 
> 
> But not everyone are gifted with logic and intelligence... Others have them but WANT Luffy to be stronger because they like common-places of the main character being unbeatble...
> ...


Lol, what you call "analyzing various situations" in regards to Zoro and Luffy's strength is nothing but headcanon that makes yourself feel better when making comparisons.

The story doesn't demand nor cater to Zoro = Luffy at all. The story however has always catered to the fact that Zoro is *secondary* to Luffy, whether in command, bounty, power, or fights against other people with the same respective positions.

Zoro = Luffy is actually laughable when you consider Luffy's role in the story and what Zoro represents to Luffy.


----------



## goldsaint13 (Apr 28, 2015)

Kai said:


> Where they stated to be equal and under what context?



They fought equally in the past and are stated equals by 2 Databooks... Every comparison they had showed they are fighters of the same league... It never happened that Zoro has been shown weaker than Luffy in any way...



> Lol, what you call "analyzing various situations" in regards to Zoro and Luffy's strength is nothing but headcanon that makes yourself feel better when making comparisons.



It's enough to be that those situation can never prove Luffy stronger than Zoro... They can't prove them equal either and to prove them equal there are just some limited elements that are the Databooks and the direct fight... But even assuming none of this exist, you still couldn't say Luffy > Zoro because there is no way to prove it since it never happened that a direct comparison has demonstrated Luffy stronger in any way...



> The story doesn't demand nor cater to Zoro = Luffy at all. The story however has always catered to the fact that Zoro is *secondary* to Luffy, whether in command, bounty, power, or fights against other people with the same respective positions.



Almost all true... Despite for power....... Luffy is above Zoro in everything but he doesn't need to be above him in power and never proved to be such...

Yellow Databook while saying that Zoro is equal to Luffy touches this specific point:

Despite having the same battle power, Zoro accept his role that is subordinate in every aspect to Luffy's because he entrusted him as Captain...



> Zoro = Luffy is actually laughable when you consider Luffy's role in the story and what Zoro represents to Luffy.



Only if you measure everything on strength and don't understand that One Piece roles, bounties, positions, relevances of characters are not, or just marginally, connected to strength...


----------



## Zuhaitz (Apr 28, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> After Law had blasted his inner organs yes, even Nami will be able to kill him when he will be KO......
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Zoro didn't want to fight half defeated Lucci, Luffy is handling half defeated DD.

And Zoro needed help to deal with Pica, if It wasn't for the help he may not have touched Pica ever.
Luffy would have one shoot Pica if he went for the win.


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## Green Monkey (Apr 28, 2015)

Luke said:


> Luffy gets taken out.
> 
> The G4 wank is some of the most ridiculous shit I've read on here in a while. Yes, it's an impressive power up. No, it doesn't make Luffy 10x stronger.



Except if Luffy was 2x as strong as he was without G4 he could probably solo the crew assuming Zoro and Sanji are below his pre gear 4 powerup.

Luffy is not suddenly going to solo an admiral, but this is probably the biggest powerup we've ever seen a Strawhat get in the manga, it can not be emphasized too much. He might not be 10x stronger, but he has multiplied his strength some amount with this transformation. That's the only way you go from someone saying your hits don't even scratch to them sending him across an island and going "Such obscene power".

When Luffy went g2 against Lucci he was actually fighting relatively even with Base Lucci. Luffy was getting rekt pretty handily before he went G4 against DD.

IIRC DD even mentioned that Luffy's power multiplied when he hit G4.


----------



## Dellinger (Apr 28, 2015)

Luffy wasn't getting wrecked.Stop with this nonsense.Doflamingo was superior indeed,but he wasn't wrecking shit.


----------



## goldsaint13 (Apr 28, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Zoro didn't want to fight half defeated Lucci



Again... To avoid being separated from the crew, not for strength reason!



> Luffy is handling half defeated DD.



Something Zoro possibly could do too pushing himself to the limit (something he didn't do yet)...



> And Zoro needed help to deal with Pica, if It wasn't for the help he may not have touched Pica ever.
> Luffy would have one shoot Pica if he went for the win.



Only finding his real body and attacking him with a Grizzly Magum or such attacks... Luffy wouldn't have needed help only because he could have reached Pica's height with his lengthened arms..... 

Luffy is more versatile, he can do things Zoro can't (for example reaching Pica's height without help) and if you consider it being stronger I can agree... But he's not stronger in terms of strict combat!



Green Monkey said:


> Except if Luffy was 2x as strong as he was without G4 he could probably solo the crew assuming Zoro and Sanji are below his pre gear 4 powerup.



What Zoro has shown so far is not below his pre-G4... About being equal or not to Luffy's G4 we have to wait for his best... Probably a full Hardening advanced Ashura!


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## TheWiggian (Apr 29, 2015)

Luffy loses badly. Zoro and Sanji are enough, they don't need the others, as if they'd make a big difference anyway.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 29, 2015)

TheWiggian said:


> Luffy loses badly. Zoro and Sanji are enough, they don't need the others, as if they'd make a big difference anyway.



Of course! It's debatable if G4 Luffy could be above Zoro alone, maybe above what Zoro have shown so far but Zoro at his best can probably fight G4 Luffy equally on his own... Zoro+Sanji are just ownage for Luffy...


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 29, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> Of course! It's debatable if G4 Luffy could be above Zoro alone, maybe above what Zoro have shown so far but Zoro at his best can probably fight G4 Luffy equally on his own... Zoro+Sanji are just ownage for Luffy...



No, It is not debatable. Current Luffy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zoro

Zoro needs help to defeat Pica. Luffy is beating DD.

Maybe Wano saga Zoro reaches Fishman Island saga Luffy's level.


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## Lucy75 (Apr 29, 2015)

G4 luffy stomps his whole crew. 

I mean seriously he fucking destroyed don. Unless your gonna tell me don can't solo them now?


----------



## goldsaint13 (Apr 29, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> No, It is not debatable. Current Luffy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zoro



Stop dreaming............. Or drinking........


Zoro and Luffy have been equal in the past and are either equal or very close now! 

What matter are facts and official statements, not your Luffy's omnipotence deliriums... 



> Zoro needs help to defeat Pica. Luffy is beating DD.



Zoro needs help to REACH Pica.......... Luffy needs Law to have destroyed DD body to have a chance with him...



> Maybe Wano saga Zoro reaches Fishman Island saga Luffy's level.



HAHAHAHAHA

Current Zoro > Fishman Island Luffy

Current Zoro = current Luffy (roughly at least, there may  be a slight difference)...

Actually they have been as strong as they are showing now probably since Fishman Island but they didn't need to show it!


Yours will be always Luffy's fanboy dreams... When a new Databook will come out and it will eventually state Luffy and Zoro equal again it will be the burial to such foolish deliriums!

Be happy that Yellow Databook has buried your CP9 saga Luffy > Zoro delirium long since...



Lucy75 said:


> G4 luffy stomps his whole crew.
> 
> I mean seriously he fucking destroyed don. Unless your gonna tell me don can't solo them now?



DD can't solo even Zoro and Sanji like he can't solo Luffy and Law! The same for Luffy that his damaging him only thanks to Law!

G4 Luffy > Zoro alone is already debatable!


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## Finalbeta (Apr 29, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> G4 luffy stomps his whole crew.
> 
> I mean seriously he fucking destroyed don. Unless your gonna tell me don can't solo them now?



He is destroying a weak Doffy, but zoro and sanji couldn't even do that, Luffy wins.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 29, 2015)

Finalbeta said:


> He is destroying a weak Doffy, but zoro and sanji couldn't even do that, Luffy wins.



Did Zoro try and fail?!

HELL NO!


Then stop making assumptions! When Zoro will have shown his best we could make ourselves an idea!


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## Finalbeta (Apr 29, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> Did Zoro try and fail?!
> 
> HELL NO!
> 
> ...



I agree, I'm justing putting my ideas from the feats they have shown till now, and g3 luffy is no match for weak doffy

g3 luffy > zoro > sanji


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 29, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> Zoro needs help to REACH Pica



So Zoro is so weak that he doesn't even reach Pica, on the other hand Luffy is above DD 

None that matters is debating whereas Luffy is just more powerful than Zoro or much more powerful, everyone agrees that Luffy is a whole tier above the rest of the crew, a crew in which Zoro is not only below Luffy but also Go D. Ussop.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 29, 2015)

Finalbeta said:


> I agree, I'm justing putting my ideas from the feats they have shown till now, and g3 luffy is no match for weak doffy
> 
> g3 luffy > zoro > sanji



G4 Luffy may be > Zoro so far, not G3 Luffy... Zoro has matched G3 Luffy long since...



Zuhaitz said:


> So Zoro is so weak that he doesn't even reach Pica, on the other hand Luffy is above DD



He can't fly... Sanji can for example... Luffy partially can because he can't fly but can stretch his arms and reach flying heights if he has something to grab... Does this mean Sanji > Luffy > Zoro? Really no... These are abilities not combat power...
Zoro can't fly, it's just that...

Luffy is above badly injured DD...



> None that matters is debating whereas Luffy is just more powerful than Zoro or much more powerful, everyone agrees that Luffy is a whole tier above the rest of the crew, a crew in which Zoro is not only below Luffy but also Go D. Ussop.



Most fanbase think that Luffy is above Zoro just by a little bit and if you ask them to give proofs of that little bit they have none and it's clear that they go by assumptions and common-places because they feel or want Luffy to be at least slightly stronger than Zoro because they prefer things as such... But both their acceptable balance of view or delirious extremisms like yours are not proved...

Not only Zoro is the same league as Luffy, that doesn't mean being exactly equal but at least being a fighter of the same category, BUT ALSO Zoro is possibly still on par with Luffy like he used to be in the past, not because I say it but because it has been stated by canon sources!


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 29, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> G4 Luffy may be > Zoro so far, not G3 Luffy... Zoro has matched G3 Luffy long since...



LOL no. Luffy way faster than Zoro, Zoro can`t hope touch Luffy at all.


goldsaint13 said:


> He can't fly... Sanji can for example... Luffy partially can because he can't fly but can stretch his arms and reach flying heights if he has something to grab... Does this mean Sanji > Luffy > Zoro? Really no... These are abilities not combat power...
> Zoro can't fly, it's just that...
> 
> Luffy is above badly injured DD...



Mobility, speed  and range.

 The fact that Zoro needed help to reach Pica shows that he lacks all those 3 things, things that are fundamental in overall fighting power. And that Luffy has way above Zoro.





goldsaint13 said:


> Most fanbase think that Luffy is above Zoro just by a little bit and if you ask them to give proofs of that little bit they have none and it's clear that they go by assumptions and common-places because they feel or want Luffy to be at least slightly stronger than Zoro because they prefer things as such... But both their acceptable balance of view or delirious extremisms like yours are not proved...
> 
> Not only Zoro is the same league as Luffy, that doesn't mean being exactly equal but at least being a fighter of the same category, BUT ALSO Zoro is possibly still on par with Luffy like he used to be in the past, not because I say it but because it has been stated by canon sources!



No, most of people think that Luffy is a whole tier above Zoro and Sanji since Ennies Lobby, and that Zoro is closer to Sanji than he is to Luffy.

And they are right. Now Law and Kidd are Luffy's new companion in the SN monster trio. Zoro and Sanji aren't on par with them.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 29, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> LOL no. Luffy way faster than Zoro, Zoro can`t hope touch Luffy at all.



This is an old argument! People like you started with is since G2 but it has been clearly show soon after that while Zoro didn't have that kind of super speed, he could catch in his slashes opponents of the same speed or higher...



> Mobility, speed  and range.



Finally some serious stuff! 

Going on about what I was just saying, Zoro's fighting style is different... You can't judge Zoro like the only way to be strong would be by mobility, speed and range...

Stability, defense and counters... These are Zoro's answers!

Zoro simply doesn't need to move back and forth at super speed in a wide area... He just needs to maintain his position firmly and block/deflect attacks! Luffy needs that because he's unarmed and ha has to dodge but Zoro just needs to block and respond (that's why counter)...

Zoro has some ranged attacks (and can also launch flying slashes Mihawk style now) but Luffy's range is higher... The problem is that Luffy can't attack Zoro from a distance with projectiles, he still uses his limbs and he has to clash with Zoro's attacks and counters... He could try to keep Zoro at distance with pseudo-ranged attacks and try to avoid to come in contact with his strongest techniques that need proximity... If the battle happens in a wide area and Luffy can remain mostly at distance he may be advantaged and win... But a close area with limited movement space making it unable for Luffy to make use of his mobility and range would advantage Zoro instead!

Luffy is actually more versatile and has more adaptability to situations, but in terms of traditional combat power him and Zoro are the same league! They have equal attack power and defensive capacity (Luffy dodges with speed, Zoro can simply block with swords)...



> The fact that Zoro needed help to reach Pica shows that he lacks all those 3 things, things that are fundamental in overall fighting power. And that Luffy has way above Zoro.



This can be true and if you consider Luffy "stronger" than Zoro in these terms you can be right! He is not counting only raw combat power!



> No, most of people think that Luffy is a whole tier above Zoro and Sanji since Ennies Lobby, and that Zoro is closer to Sanji than he is to Luffy.
> 
> And they are right. Now Law and Kidd are Luffy's new companion in the SN monster trio. Zoro and Sanji aren't on par with them.



They are wrong, mostly! Zoro was equal to Luffy even at Enies Lobby and onwards... It has been even officially confirmed by Databook, there is not even a debate on it! Luffy, Law and Kidd are not stronger than him and nothing proves they are..... Meaning raw combat power... If you consider overall possibilities it's the same I said before, they have more... Law with Room and his DF in general has a far wider array of capacities than Zoro but neither him nor Luffy are "stronger" than Zoro if we mean just raw stats!

It has been like this since the beginning! Luffy and Zoro were equal physically but Luffy has capacities that Zoro lacks and that sometimes let him the only one capable of doing some things!

So...

Luffy's capacities >>> Zoro's capacities

Luffy's combat power = Zoro's combat power


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## Finalbeta (Apr 29, 2015)

g3 luffy would win quite easily against the likes of Vergo, and sanji would lose high difficult in his best day
Zoro vs Vergo is 50/50 imo or zoro wins high/very high difficult

g3 luffy was still get trashed by a doflamingo with his organs in pieces


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## STARSTRIKE (Apr 29, 2015)

even without Ashura, Zorro is Luffy's biggest counter of all the characters in the series(Law could possibly beat anyone too). Rubber vs swords - rubber gets cut.


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## Finalbeta (Apr 29, 2015)

STARSTRIKE said:


> even without Ashura, Zorro is Luffy's biggest counter of all the characters in the series(Law could possibly beat anyone too). Rubber vs swords - rubber gets cut.



Yeah but this was before luffy got g4.

g3 luffy was getting trashed by the same doflamingo that now is getting trashed the same way 

zoro and sanji for waht they have shown till now are not touching doflamingo even in his weak state, so they will not beat g4 luffy. 

the rest of straw hats isn't helping too much


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 29, 2015)

Finalbeta said:


> g3 luffy would win quite easily against the likes of Vergo, and sanji would lose high difficult in his best day
> Zoro vs Vergo is 50/50 imo or zoro wins high/very high difficult



You could say it before Zoro gave a glimpse of his outstanding Armor Haki capacity! Even considering Vergo's Hardening a bit stronger than Pica's, Zoro just owned Pica like a kid! Zoro is the crew Armor Haki specialist, forget that Vergo could resist one of Zoro's advanced techniques imbued with full Hardening!



Finalbeta said:


> Yeah but this was before luffy got g4.
> 
> g3 luffy was getting trashed by the same doflamingo that now is getting trashed the same way
> 
> zoro and sanji for waht they have *shown till now* are not touching doflamingo even in his weak state, so they will not beat g4 luffy.



Well said... You will see what full effort Zoro can do with Ashura and the likes!

Anyway, Ichidan Sanzen Daisen Sekai would damage weak state DD but it's probably not enough to defeat him!


----------



## Finalbeta (Apr 29, 2015)

IMO Vergo's haki is a lot better than Pica's, Trafalgar Law, without his fruit's hax, would probably lose to Vergo or it's a 50/50 imo


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 29, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> This is an old argument! People like you started with is since G2 but it has been clearly show soon after that while Zoro didn't have that kind of super speed, he could catch in his slashes opponents of the same speed or higher...



Zoro has never fought anyone on par with Luffy's speed. Never.



goldsaint13 said:


> Finally some serious stuff!
> 
> Going on about what I was just saying, Zoro's fighting style is different... You can't judge Zoro like the only way to be strong would be by mobility, speed and range...
> 
> Stability, defense and counters... These are Zoro's answers!



Luffy has better defence, stability and counters.



goldsaint13 said:


> Zoro simply doesn't need to move back and forth at super speed in a wide area... He just needs to maintain his position firmly and block/deflect attacks! Luffy needs that because he's unarmed and ha has to dodge but Zoro just needs to block and respond (that's why counter)...



How does Zoro block an attack faster than what he can react to?



goldsaint13 said:


> Zoro has some ranged attacks (and can also launch flying slashes Mihawk style now) but Luffy's range is higher... The problem is that Luffy can't attack Zoro from a distance with projectiles, he still uses his limbs and he has to clash with Zoro's attacks and counters... He could try to keep Zoro at distance with pseudo-ranged attacks and try to avoid to come in contact with his strongest techniques that need proximity... If the battle happens in a wide area and Luffy can remain mostly at distance he may be advantaged and win... But a close area with limited movement space making it unable for Luffy to make use of his mobility and range would advantage Zoro instead!
> 
> Luffy is actually more versatile and has more adaptability to situations, but in terms of traditional combat power him and Zoro are the same league! They have equal attack power and defensive capacity (Luffy dodges with speed, Zoro can simply block with swords)...
> 
> ...



Luffy is physically stronger than Zoro.
Luffy is faster than Zoro.
Luffy has more range than Zoro.
Luffy has better defence than Zoro.
Luffy is more durable than Zoro.
Luffy has more endurance than Zoro.
Luffy is more intelligent when It comes to combat than Zoro.

The only single thing Zoro has over Luffy is the ability to use swords.


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## Arkash (Apr 29, 2015)

Zoro and Sanji mid diff him.


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## Finalbeta (Apr 29, 2015)

Sanji is a non factor here, g4 luffy is not that weaker than sabo with no fruit, and sabo can one shot any sanji badly and quickly


----------



## goldsaint13 (Apr 29, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Zoro has never fought anyone on par with Luffy's speed. Never.



Thriller Bark arc, he has reacted to some Kuma's attacks. Kuma's speed >>> Luffy's speed. Zoro is not as fast as Luffy but has enough reaction speed (he doesn't use mobility).


Try again.



> Luffy has better defence, stability and counters.



Are you awake yet? I don't think so.


Luffy has better defense only against types of damage he is immune or resistant to! Against damage he's not immune Zoro's defense is far better, he can block, Luffy has to dodge!



> How does Zoro block an attack faster than what he can react to?



He's reaction speed is fast, he just can't move at super speed, go and see when he fought Kuma!



> Luffy is physically stronger than Zoro.



Proofs? You have none! Usual assumption... There is not a single time when Luffy's attacks have been stronger than Zoro's... Zoro's with swords of course... It's no matter if Luffy has more raw strength... Zoro is a swordsman, he doesn't need raw strength as long as he can cut!



> Luffy is faster than Zoro.



One of the few true things you said here!



> Luffy has more range than Zoro.



Generally yes! But Zoro has ranged attacks!



> Luffy has better defence than Zoro.



Against bunt damage only.



> Luffy is more durable than Zoro.



Again, against blunt attacks.



> Luffy has more endurance than Zoro.



Keep dreaming... Too bad that reality tells that Luffy's damage, Luffy KO, Zoro's damage + Luffy damage, Zoro standing.


Try again.



> Luffy is more intelligent when It comes to combat than Zoro.



He's more creative you mean. Yes. That's another point in his favor.



> The only single thing Zoro has over Luffy is the ability to use swords.



Yes and with that ability he can match Luffy in basic combat.



If we try to give 1 point for each "stat" they have above the other and 0 points for each equal "stat" Luffy still wins by a small margin...

Attack power (not raw strength): Luffy = Zoro
Defense (against something Luffy is not immune to): Zoro > Luffy 
Speed and dodging ability: Luffy > Zoro
Endurance/durability: Zoro > Luffy
Creativity in battle: Luffy > Zoro 
Overall range: Luffy > Zoro


Luffy 3 points
Zoro 2 points


Are you happy?
But even though Luffy is OVERALL better somehow, they are the same power league!



Finalbeta said:


> IMO Vergo's haki is a lot better than Pica's, Trafalgar Law, without his fruit's hax, would probably lose to Vergo or it's a 50/50 imo



We don't know how Vergo's Haki is compared to Pica's! Probably higher but we don't know by how much, we need some Databook revealing Haki levels...
Zoro is surely presented as a champion of Armor Haki and is the specialist in the crew! Law is not weaker than Zoro 'cause of the DF ability but about Haki alone Zoro is probably better!


----------



## Zuhaitz (Apr 29, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> Thriller Bark arc, he has reacted to some Kuma's attacks. Kuma's speed >>> Luffy's speed. Zoro is not as fast as Luffy but has enough reaction speed (he doesn't use mobility).
> 
> 
> Try again.
> ...


----------



## goldsaint13 (Apr 29, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> And we all know that Kuma was going for the kill



But his speed is much higher than G2... If Zoro can react to Kuma's speed with a damaged body, he can react to G2 at full health! But he proved long since to be able to do it! G2 is basically Soru speed, and he fought Soru users!



> Immune to poison



Yes.



> rubber body



Yes.



> better CoA



NO WAY! Zoro is the CoA expert not Luffy! Luffy can be equal to Zoro at best! And nothing proves Luffy any better on CoA!



> and faster reflexes.



No, just more speed, not faster reflexes! Luffy's movement speed is higher but about reaction speed that have shown to be even!



> And Luffy can block attacks too.



Also Zoro can dodge them, but Luffy can dodge them better with super speed and Zoro can block them better with weapons!



> LOL You really think that Kuma was trying to kill Zoro



Even a not serious Kuma is faster than pre-TS G2 Luffy, against a Zoro with heavy injuries!



> Luffy is able to injure Doflamingo, Luffy was crushing the Noah...



Did Zoro try to injure DD or crush, or cut, the Noah and fail? NO!



> Luffy has blocked DD's strings.



Again, did Zoro fail to do the same?

Isn't Zoro about to cut the cage? We'll see then........



> Luffy's pain and according to Chopper = *Luffy out of danger.*
> Zoro with Luffy pain and acording to Chopper = *Zoro dies* if not because of his medical skills.



Yes, but Zoro was already badly injured on his own, or did you forget?



> Thriller Bark proved that Luffy can handle much more injures and pain than Zoro, Luffy was just fine after the fight, but Zoro would have died if he had to handle what Luffy handled.





> And Thriller Bark proved that Zoro would have died if he had to handle Luffy's fatigue and pain.



Added to his own injuries! Different would be if Zoro would have to handle only what Luffy did...



> LOL In your dreams maybe.



The dreamer that even tries uselessly to go against canon statements is you, not me!



> Luffy has resisted attacks that would have one shoot Zoro.



Yes, attacks he was immune to.



> DD praised Vergo's haki.



Did he say that Pica's is weak? No... Just your assumptions! Maybe Vergo's better but not necessarily by much...



> None has ever said that Zoro's CoA is even decent, let alone above the one of Luffy, who is tiers above him in haki business.



Your deliriums are tiers beyond reality.

Oda himself stated Zoro as the CoA specialist in the crew! 



The best Luffy could be is being equal to Zoro on CoA...

Luffy has obviously the best King Haki and it's what he deserves as Captain, not being stronger than Zoro...


Needless to say, there is nothing proving Luffy's CoA any better than Zoro's outside of your assumption or preference to have Luffy stronger...



> Law is a shichibukai that is able to survive a battle with Fujitora and DD at the same time and even severely injure DD, he is leagues above Zoro.



Truth is leagues far from your words! Zoro is roughly equal to both Law and Luffy, he simply is too strong for the fodder he usually trashes and deserves the same opponents they have! Too bad that he didn't show his real power but everyone with a bit of intelligence has already understood that his CoA is amazing and it's wasted against the minions he has stomped until now! Zoro is also Shichibukai level as much as Luffy and Law and is also probably among the top 5 swordsmen in the world!

When a Databook will come out and will state Zoro as equal or roughly equal to the likes of Luffy and Law don't tell me that I didn't warned you... Yellow Databook has already stated Zoro and Luffy equal to Enies Lobby times, despite your deliriums of Luffy >>>>> Zoro, or leagues above, or such foolish statements! 

Luffy is overall better than Zoro because of a series of capacities and advantages he has and he both have listed... But in raw combat Luffy = Zoro and you won't change it!


----------



## TheWiggian (Apr 29, 2015)

@ goldsaint13

Why you do him a favour and discuss with him?


----------



## goldsaint13 (Apr 29, 2015)

TheWiggian said:


> @ goldsaint13
> 
> Why you do him a favour and discuss with him?



Because he's wrong, wronger than the majority of these kind of people not accepting Luffy = Zoro that I have cornered in these 10 years of activity or something! 

But among all the absurdities he says like Luffy being tiers or leagues above Zoro, something giving the creeps at even reading it, he's right and intelligent on some aspects! It's indeed true that Luffy has some skills and capacities that Zoro lacks, both of the side of defense and mobility... I agree with these things... But only if he would accept that Zoro and Luffy are roughly equal combat-wise BUT there are situations Luffy can handle better thanks to his characteristics! Just that!


----------



## TheWiggian (Apr 29, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> Because he's wrong, wronger than the majority of these kind of people not accepting Luffy = Zoro that I have cornered in these 10 years of activity or something!
> 
> But among all the absurdities he says like Luffy being tiers or leagues above Zoro, something giving the creeps at even reading it, he's right and intelligent on some aspects! It's indeed true that Luffy has some skills and capacities that Zoro lacks, both of the side of defense and mobility... I agree with these things... But only if he would accept that Zoro and Luffy are roughly equal combat-wise BUT there are situations Luffy can handle better thanks to his characteristics! Just that!



He's a Zoro/Mihawk hater/flamer, Usopp wanker and troll. I wouldn't waste a second for him except if i want to laugh, but ofc it's your decision.


----------



## goldsaint13 (Apr 29, 2015)

TheWiggian said:


> He's a Zoro/Mihawk hater/flamer, Usopp wanker and troll. I wouldn't waste a second for him except if i want to laugh, but ofc it's your decision.



Yes, I had suspected it!  I know his kind very well... Usually they are Sanji wankers but there are exceptions... 

Actually Zoro and Mihawk are very similar... They are cool and badass, many fans love them for their style both in battle and as attitude! 
Haters don't usually accept that they are strong, stronger than their role would tell... Zoro is equal to Luffy despite not being the Captain and Mihawk is equal to Shanks despite not being a Yonkou!

Haters don't accept their strength and uselessly try to diminish it and make them appear as weaklings compared to the Captain/Yonkou they are instead comparable to strength-wise!

Luckily Oda thinks differently!


----------



## Zuhaitz (Apr 29, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> But his speed is much higher than G2... If Zoro can react to Kuma's speed with a damaged body, he can react to G2 at full health! But he proved long since to be able to do it! G2 is basically Soru speed, and he fought Soru users!



If you admit that Kuma wasn't trying to kill Zoro then all the feats of that pseudo fight are null.




goldsaint13 said:


> NO WAY! Zoro is the CoA expert not Luffy! Luffy can be equal to Zoro at best! And nothing proves Luffy any better on CoA!



Wrong, Luffy is better than all the rest of the crew in every colour of haki. Oda only said that Zoro specializes in CoA, that doesn't mean that he has the most powerful CoA, just that he is better at CoA than he is in CoO.

Brook specializes in swordsmanship, just like Zoro, does that mean that he is equal to Zoro in swordsmanship?

Chopper specializes in h2h combat, does that mean that he is stronger than Zoro?



goldsaint13 said:


> No, just more speed, not faster reflexes! Luffy's movement speed is higher but about reaction speed that have shown to be even!



Luffy has reacted to bloodlusted DD. His reflexes are better than Zoro's.



goldsaint13 said:


> Also Zoro can dodge them, but Luffy can dodge them better with super speed and Zoro can block them better with weapons!



CoA > Swords



goldsaint13 said:


> Even a not serious Kuma is faster than pre-TS G2 Luffy, against a Zoro with heavy injuries!



Kuma not pretending to blitz Zoro will not blitz him. Kuma trying not to injure Zoro will not injure him. 

Kuma playing with Zoro doesn't proof that Zoro is fast.



goldsaint13 said:


> Did Zoro try to injure DD or crush, or cut, the Noah and fail? NO!



Has Zoro any feat comparable to Luffy crushing the Noah or injuring DD? NO!



goldsaint13 said:


> Again, did Zoro fail to do the same?
> 
> Isn't Zoro about to cut the cage? We'll see then........



He has fail to prove to be on par with Luffy.
Using your shit logic, has Luffy ever tried to destroy the planet? No, then he must be able to do it until proven otherwise.




goldsaint13 said:


> Yes, but Zoro was already badly injured on his own, or did you forget?
> 
> Added to his own injuries! Different would be if Zoro would have to handle only what Luffy did...



By his own injures you mean the ones created by Ryuma? 



goldsaint13 said:


> Yes, attacks he was immune to.



Like Magellan's poison, Lucci's rokushi techniques, or Crocodile's hax. Yeah, he was totally immune to them 



goldsaint13 said:


> Did he say that Pica's is weak? No... Just your assumptions! Maybe Vergo's better but not necessarily by much...



DD was getting wet thinking of how powerful Vergo was. Vergo has been training and fighting pirates in the marines for years till he became the head of the second most powerful marine base while Pica was drinking daiquiris in Dressrosa.

Vergo>> Pica 





goldsaint13 said:


> Your deliriums are tiers beyond reality.
> 
> Oda himself stated Zoro as the CoA specialist in the crew!
> 
> ...



Specialize =/= being the best on a group on it

Brook specializes in swordsmanship but he isn't as good swordsman as Zoro, is he? 




goldsaint13 said:


> Needless to say, there is nothing proving Luffy's CoA any better than Zoro's outside of your assumption or preference to have Luffy stronger...



Luffy's CoA overpowered DD's.

DD's CoA >>> Zoro's


goldsaint13 said:


> Truth is leagues far from your words! Zoro is roughly equal to both Law and Luffy, he simply is too strong for the fodder he usually trashes and deserves the same opponents they have! Too bad that he didn't show his real power but everyone with a bit of intelligence has already understood that his CoA is amazing and it's wasted against the minions he has stomped until now! Zoro is also Shichibukai level as much as Luffy and Law and is also probably among the top 5 swordsmen in the world!
> 
> When a Databook will come out and will state Zoro as equal or roughly equal to the likes of Luffy and Law don't tell me that I didn't warned you... Yellow Databook has already stated Zoro and Luffy equal to Enies Lobby times, despite your deliriums of Luffy >>>>> Zoro, or leagues above, or such foolish statements!
> 
> Luffy is overall better than Zoro because of a series of capacities and advantages he has and he both have listed... But in raw combat Luffy = Zoro and you won't change it!



Your shit logic goes like this:

Zoro doesn't have any feat to put him on par with Luffy, but he hasn't show that he isn't either, then he must be and he can't show it.

Then Luffy doesn't have any feat to prove that he has already surpassed Roger, but he hasn't proved that he can't either, so he must have surpassed him and he hasn't show it yet.


----------



## ShadowReaper (Apr 29, 2015)

Defeats all of them, although with difficulty.


----------



## goldsaint13 (Apr 29, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> If you admit that Kuma wasn't trying to kill Zoro then all the feats of that pseudo fight are null.



You would like it because that fight shows how strong Zoro is against real opponents... Something obvious considering that Yellow Databook officially states Luffy = Zoro at the time!

Kuma didn't use his full capacity but Zoro couldn't use it as well since he has badly injured and did with he did with *most of his bones broken*!



> Wrong, Luffy is better than all the rest of the crew in every colour of haki.



Did anyone ever said it?

NO

Has it been proved by something? 

NO


You have to be healed! I'm your doctor... Your illness is thinking that Luffy is better than everyone at everything...

Luffy is not God... Not even Enel was... Surely Luffy is not!


You have not a damn proof that Luffy is better than Zoro in any of the two Colors of Haki they have both shown to possess!



> Oda only said that Zoro specializes in CoA, that doesn't mean that he has the most powerful CoA, just that he is better at CoA than he is in CoO.



And what does prove that Luffy is the best instead?! *NOTHING*

Read with me: *N-O-T-H-I-N-G*



> Brook specializes in swordsmanship, just like Zoro, does that mean that he is equal to Zoro in swordsmanship?



No, Brook specializes in music... He also uses a sword, but it's not his main skill...



> Chopper specializes in h2h combat, does that mean that he is stronger than Zoro?



Chopper is a doctor... He can also fight but it's not his role...


Zoro's role is "Combatant", his specialization is fighting, that's why he's as strong as Luffy... 



> Luffy has reacted to bloodlusted DD. His reflexes are better than Zoro's.



Again, did Zoro try this and fail?

You still have to answer...



> CoA > Swords



Ask Pica if it's really true! Hahahaha! 

Swords + CoA can easily cut any equal or weaker CoA with even a basic technique... Let alone the advanced ones...



> Kuma not pretending to blitz Zoro will not blitz him. Kuma trying not to injure Zoro will not injure him.
> 
> Kuma playing with Zoro doesn't proof that Zoro is fast.



Kuma is holding back with a Zoro hindered by injuries and fractures... This compensates...



> Has Zoro any feat comparable to Luffy crushing the Noah or injuring DD? NO!



Cutting Pica's golem is not far from it but since Zoro has yet to use his full capacity and never had an opponent worthy enough for it, you are forced to wait! 


Nit having a feat matters when you had the chance to have it!



> He has fail to prove to be on par with Luffy.



In the post-TS, not in the pre-TS...


Not having a proof of being equal to Luffy doesn't mean he's weaker, it just means we don't know if he's weaker or not...



> Using your shit logic, has Luffy ever tried to destroy the planet? No, then he must be able to do it until proven otherwise.



When Luffy pushes himself to the limit we know it's the best he can do... Wait for Zoro to push himself to the limit as well...



> By his own injures you mean the ones created by Ryuma?



No, by Oars... An hyper gigantic much more powerful Luffy whose attacks Zoro has been able to deflect a couple of times......... Imagine with the regular Luffy... 


You see... You don't even remember that when Zoro was fighting Kuma, Chopper said that because of the attacks received by Oars most of Zoro's bones were broken and it was a miracle he could still stand...



> Like Magellan's poison, Lucci's rokushi techniques, or Crocodile's hax. Yeah, he was totally immune to them



He is resistant to them and his body can partially counter their effects. He can only survive or resist these things because he's rubber made... But not Rokushiki, these are perfectly countered by Zoro as well...
Just Rokuogan... Maybe Luffy resisted a bit better because he's rubber made... 



> DD was getting wet thinking of how powerful Vergo was. Vergo has been training and fighting pirates in the marines for years till he became the head of the second most powerful marine base while Pica was drinking daiquiris in Dressrosa.
> 
> Vergo>> Pica



Vergo is probably above Pica but you can't still tell by how much! Most of all, you can't determine the difference in their Haki... Vergo may even be a much better combatant than Pica but not having a much stronger Haki... They are both capable of Hardening, but outside of it we don't know anything else other that Vergo being probably a better CoA user but we don't know by how much!



> Luffy's CoA overpowered DD's.
> 
> DD's CoA >>> Zoro's



Did Zoro compare his CoA with DD? No... They are just your assumptions... Fact is that you can't compare Luffy's and Zoro's CoA in any way until they will be directly or pseudo-directly compared!



> Your shit logic goes like this:
> 
> Zoro doesn't have any feat to put him on par with Luffy, but he hasn't show that he isn't either, then he must be and he can't show it.
> 
> Then Luffy doesn't have any feat to prove that he has already surpassed Roger, but he hasn't proved that he can't either, so he must have surpassed him and he hasn't show it yet.



To compare two characters they have both to show their best, Luffy is showing it, Zoro is not showing it yet instead!


Logic tells that first we have to see their best, second we have to find an objective comparison (trying the same thing for example) and third we could actually compare them...


What we can say now:


WE DON'T KNOW YET WHO'S STRONGER BETWEEN LUFFY AND ZORO



This is logic. You assume Luffy > Zoro instead.




Not much time ago some said that Zoro had CoA but couldn't use Hardening! Asking those assumptions-makers why they answered: "Because Zoro has never shown Hardening!"

I said to them similar things I'm saying to you now... 

YOU WILL SEE.....................



And they have seen.........
Zoro has Hardening and a very powerful one of course... They didn't want to believe me... Facts have later talked in my place...



Now I say it to you: I don't know if Zoro is exactly equal to Luffy or just very close, but you will see that soon their equity or close proximity will be undeniably proved.


Mark my words...



ShadowReaper said:


> Defeats all of them, although with difficulty.



He may defeat Zoro alone with difficulty if Zoro doesn't use more than what he has already shown, but him defeating all the crew is out of question!


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (Apr 29, 2015)

luckily Oda made Mihawk > Shanks

that won't change regardless of the number of dumb trolls


----------



## kidgogeta (Apr 29, 2015)

When did it become a thing to think Luffy could beat Zoro and Sanji at the same time? Holy fuck.


----------



## goldsaint13 (Apr 30, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> luckily Oda made Mihawk > Shanks
> 
> that won't change regardless of the number of dumb trolls



Mihawk and Shanks are likely still equal because Databook says that Shanks didn't lost any of his power due to the arm loss... 
But thinking that Mihawk is weaker than Shanks is based on the usual idea of role = strength, that is wrong for both Luffy/Zoro and Shanks/Mihawk!



kidgogeta said:


> When did it become a thing to think Luffy could beat Zoro and Sanji at the same time? Holy fuck.



 Hahahaha sometimes people come up with these foolishnesses... Truth is that even Luffy vs only Zoro is an open match!


----------



## Zuhaitz (Apr 30, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> You would like it because that fight shows how strong Zoro is against real opponents... Something obvious considering that Yellow Databook officially states Luffy = Zoro at the time!
> 
> Kuma didn't use his full capacity but Zoro couldn't use it as well since he has badly injured and did with he did with *most of his bones broken*!



You admitted that Kuma wasn't trying to kill Zoro.

If Kuma wasn't trying to kill Zoro, he wouldn't attack at his max power.

The databook is a secondary canon and It only counts when the manga doesn't show the opposite, and in this case the manga proved that Luffy>Zoro.



goldsaint13 said:


> you have not a damn proof that Luffy is better than Zoro in any of the two Colors of Haki they have both shown to possess!



Luffy has better CoA feats, that's all the feat I need.


goldsaint13 said:


> *No, Brook specializes in music... He also uses a sword, but it's not his main skill...*





goldsaint13 said:


> Zoro's role is "Combatant", his specialization is fighting, that's why he's as strong as Luffy...



No, Luffy is the main character and the captain, and the guy defeats the most powerful enemies that Zoro wouldn't be able to defeat himself.

But is good that you admit that Zoro's role in the crew is combatant and not FM.



goldsaint13 said:


> Again, did Zoro try this and fail?
> 
> You still have to answer...



Did Sanji try to kill Zoro and fail?

Then is confirmed Sanji > Zoro



goldsaint13 said:


> Ask Pica if it's really true! Hahahaha!
> 
> Swords + CoA can easily cut any equal or weaker CoA with even a basic technique... Let alone the advanced ones...



You mean that thanks to his CoA and swords Zoro was able to cut..... rocks?

Impressive by Zoro's standards, pathetic for any high tier.



goldsaint13 said:


> Kuma is holding back with a Zoro hindered by injuries and fractures... This compensates...



It does not. Zoro was sightly injured, Kuma wasn't even trying, he was playing with his new toy Zolo.



goldsaint13 said:


> Cutting Pica's golem is not far from it but since Zoro has yet to use his full capacity and never had an opponent worthy enough for it, you are forced to wait!
> 
> Nit having a feat matters when you had the chance to have it!
> 
> ...



Zoro's best cutting feat is still sightly worse than Chinjao's attack.

And not having proofs of Zoro being equal to Luffy makes your point nothing more than a baseless opinion.

I can say that we don't have proves of Nami being the most powerful being in OP verse, but that she didn't had the chance to prove the opposite as well, so she must be the most powerful being in the OP verse.



goldsaint13 said:


> When Luffy pushes himself to the limit we know it's the best he can do... Wait for Zoro to push himself to the limit as well...



Currently, and based just on manga canon and not in your wet dreams and fan fictions Luffy>>>Zoro



goldsaint13 said:


> No, by Oars... An hyper gigantic much more powerful Luffy whose attacks Zoro has been able to deflect a couple of times......... Imagine with the regular Luffy...



Zoro was hit by Oars once. If he couldn't tank it when Franky and Brook could...



goldsaint13 said:


> You see... You don't even remember that when Zoro was fighting Kuma, Chopper said that because of the attacks received by Oars most of Zoro's bones were broken and it was a miracle he could still stand...



Brook was also hit by Oars, and his bones were just fine, what a shitty durability Zoro has 
.


goldsaint13 said:


> Just Rokuogan... Maybe Luffy resisted a bit better because he's rubber made...



Maybe you should just write your terrible fan fictions.



goldsaint13 said:


> Vergo is probably above Pica but you can't still tell by how much! Most of all, you can't determine the difference in their Haki... Vergo may even be a much better combatant than Pica but not having a much stronger Haki... They are both capable of Hardening, but outside of it we don't know anything else other that Vergo being probably a better CoA user but we don't know by how much!



Vergo was the most trusted, and most powerful nakama of DD, he was one of the most powerful marines and reached that range by fighting and because of his power. Pica was a little girl in a man body with a hax DF.



goldsaint13 said:


> Did Zoro compare his CoA with DD? No... They are just your assumptions... Fact is that you can't compare Luffy's and Zoro's CoA in any way until they will be directly or pseudo-directly compared!
> 
> Logic tells that first we have to see their best, second we have to find an objective comparison (trying the same thing for example) and third we could actually compare them...



Logic tells me to compare their best feats and their portrayal. Luffy has better feats and portrayal by far.

By your logic not only Zoro is equal to Luffy until proven otherwise, so are Nami, Chopper, Franky, Brook, Sanji, Ussop, etc.

There aren't any proofs of them not being able to defeat DD if they had to fight him to death.



goldsaint13 said:


> Mark my words...
> 
> He may defeat Zoro alone with difficulty if Zoro doesn't use more than what he has already shown, but him defeating all the crew is out of question!



Maybe in the future Zoro will have feats that are comparable to FI Luffy's. 

Btw Mihawk was equal to Shanks 12 years ago, before Shanks reached Yonkou level, when Shanks reached that level Mihawk avoided fighting him out of fear.
Shanks>>Shanks 12 years ago=Mihawk


----------



## goldsaint13 (Apr 30, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> You admitted that Kuma wasn't trying to kill Zoro.
> 
> If Kuma wasn't trying to kill Zoro, he wouldn't attack at his max power.



But Zoro is also in a very bad conditions... A fight with Zoro in perfect shape vs Kuma trying to kill him would be the same, Zoro would resist for a while and then lose...

But Kuma's speed is that you saw and Zoro has enough reaction speed to resist for a while... Actually Zoro's reaction speed is better but with most broken bones you know he couldn't do much...



> The databook is a secondary canon and It only counts when the manga doesn't show the opposite, and in this case the manga proved that Luffy>Zoro.



And that's never happened! This is what you don't accept! The manga shows Zoro and Luffy fighting once and shows them equal! Find me another comparison showing Luffy stronger... You can't because there is none...


Without the Databook we would be in the same situation we are for the post-timeskip: "We don't know who's stronger!"

Without the Databook both Luffy > Zoro and Luffy = Zoro would be possible interpretations in absence of a direct comparison, the Databook states that the right one is Luffy = Zoro



> Luffy has better CoA feats, that's all the feat I need.



Zoro has just started to use CoA (Hardening), he didn't even need it until now... How could you even talk about feats if Zoro just barely started to use it?!

Give him time...



> No, Luffy is the main character and the captain, and the guy defeats the most powerful enemies that Zoro wouldn't be able to defeat himself.



Assuming him stronger only because he's the main character and the Captain is the usual childish common-place I could only laugh at... There are many main characters that have one or more equally strong companions in their groups...


As for the enemies.... Give me a single example of one of Luffy's opponent that has defeated Zoro without advantages for Luffy or disadvantages for Zoro...


You won't find even one...



> But is good that you admit that Zoro's role in the crew is combatant and not FM.



There is Vice Captain or First Mate in the crew... Even Luffy's leadership is more charismatic than hierarchic and every member of the crew has the same importance, they are like a family, not a hierarchic organization...



> Did Sanji try to kill Zoro and fail?



Did I say Sanji is proved weaker than Zoro or Luffy? 



> Then is confirmed Sanji > Zoro



No, it's confirmed that Sanji is a fighter of the same league of Luffy and Zoro and only a direct comparison could prove him equal or weaker... If he would have fought DD to the death showing all he has got we could have know how strong he is compared to Luffy and Law... This is the only way you can make these comparisons, not by assumptions!



> You mean that thanks to his CoA and swords Zoro was able to cut..... rocks?



No, I mean Pica's body covered in CoA Hardening! 



> Impressive by Zoro's standards, pathetic for any high tier.



Zoro's standards are the same as the high tiers so I don't get what you are talking about... 

Zoro has been seen trashing fodder until now, his real standards are yet to be seen...



> It does not. Zoro was sightly injured, Kuma wasn't even trying, he was playing with his new toy Zolo.



Chopper, the maximum expert of human body, said Zoro has many broken bones and shouldn't even move... But he resisted Kuma and it's impressive even considering Kuma was holding back...



> Zoro's best cutting feat is still sightly worse than Chinjao's attack.



How could you measure it? Tell me... Is there an Haki reading device like Dragon Ball scouters?



> And not having proofs of Zoro being equal to Luffy makes your point nothing more than a baseless opinion.



The same as your idea of Luffy being stronger... We simply don't know yet!



> I can say that we don't have proves of Nami being the most powerful being in OP verse, but that she didn't had the chance to prove the opposite as well, so she must be the most powerful being in the OP verse.



If Nami tries her best we could know how strong she is! The same for Zoro...



> Currently, and based just on manga canon and not in your wet dreams and fan fictions Luffy>>>Zoro



The one dreaming very wet is just you, in your dreams Databooks never stated Luffy = Zoro while in the real world it happened TWICE!

Post-Timeskip: Current Luffy's feats > current Zoro's feats............. With the difference Luffy his trying is bets and Zoro never did so!



> Zoro was hit by Oars once. If he couldn't tank it when Franky and Brook could...



Twice, but this just proves that Luffy's crew is much stronger than you think! They can even resist a super stronger Luffy's attacks... Zoro even deflected a couple of them... 



> Brook was also hit by Oars, and his bones were just fine, what a shitty durability Zoro has.



This means as I said, the crew is strong! Zoro has been hit more heavily but nevertheless not only Zoro is equal to Luffy (he can even resist Oars who is >>>> Luffy) but all the crew is closer to Luffy than you think! 

In your dreams Luffy can defeat all his crew alone, in reality Zoro + Sanji would be enough to trash him!



> Maybe you should just write your terrible fan fictions.



The one contradicting canon is you, not me... 



> Vergo was the most trusted, and most powerful nakama of DD, he was one of the most powerful marines and reached that range by fighting and because of his power. Pica was a little girl in a man body with a hax DF.



Pica is just a rank below Vergo, he's among DD's top officers as well...



> Logic tells me to compare their best feats and their portrayal. Luffy has better feats and portrayal by far.



This would be logic if:

- Zoro would have shown all he has
- They would have tried the same feats or comparable feats with different results


None of this happened so be patient...



> By your logic not only Zoro is equal to Luffy until proven otherwise, so are Nami, Chopper, Franky, Brook, Sanji, Ussop, etc.



Until someone tries his best or is classified by some statement! But you need to accept canon statements and you are not so incline to do so when you don't like them it seems... 



> There aren't any proofs of them not being able to defeat DD if they had to fight him to death.



There are proofs only for Luffy and Law! Even Sanji tried but not to the death... What DD did to Sanji he did him with Luffy also before Luffy pushed himself to the limit...



> Maybe in the future Zoro will have feats that are comparable to FI Luffy's.



Who knows? He needs to try them to have them... Cutting Pica's golem is not much different from destroying Noah and it wasn't even Zoro's best... He even just started to use Hardening while Luffy used it since FI...



> Btw Mihawk was equal to Shanks 12 years ago, before Shanks reached Yonkou level, when Shanks reached that level Mihawk avoided fighting him out of fear.



   HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OUT OF WHAT?!



Out of pity for a men with a single arm...  He said so, not me...


Anyway, we don't know how strong they are compared to each other! Shanks > Mihawk, Shanks = Mihawk or Mihawk > Shanks are all possible... Forget that being a Yonkou means being stronger because it's the same silly common-place of thinking the same about being main character!



> Shanks>>Shanks 12 years ago=Mihawk



Proved by what comparison??? Did they ever say that Mihawk is remained the same as 12 years ago?


----------



## Zuhaitz (Apr 30, 2015)

Let's make it short:

Do you have any feat of Zoro reacting to someone on the level of bloodlusted DD?
Do you have any feat of Zoro tanking an attack on par with bloodlusted DD's attacks?
Do you have any feat of Zoro blitzing anyone with reflexes on par with bloodlested DD?
Do you have any feat of Zoro that puts his haki on par with Luffy's?

The burden to proof that Zoro is equal to Luffy is up to to you.

Feats and portrayal show Luffy being superior to Zoro. If you wanna prove that is otherwise then bring the feat and proof of the manga that supports your opinion.


----------



## mastergimmy (Apr 30, 2015)

Zoro+Sanji is enough. I see no intention that Oda will make Luffy so much further from the trio that he can easily solo both of them+whole crew


----------



## TheWiggian (Apr 30, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Let's make it short:
> 
> Do you have any feat of Zoro reacting to someone on the level of bloodlusted DD?
> Do you have any feat of Zoro tanking an attack on par with bloodlusted DD's attacks?
> ...



Databook statements are seriously enough for pre ts. Post ts Zoro featswise is behind Luffy except destruction power. 

Till new databook comes out to prove they're equal (if at all) again Zori is behind Luffy. With G4 Luffy is surely > Zoro by more than marginal amount.

By portrayal Zoro is still close by.

So waiting for Zoro's feats against the Birdcage/whatever is supposed to happen on Dressrosa, Kaido's army, Wano.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 30, 2015)

TheWiggian said:


> Databook statements are seriously enough for pre ts. Post ts Zoro featswise is behind Luffy except destruction power.
> 
> Till new databook comes out to prove they're equal (if at all) again Zori is behind Luffy. With G4 Luffy is surely > Zoro by more than marginal amount.
> 
> ...



Databook are secondary canon. Not to mention that are write not only by the mangaka, who some times they just sign the book without even reading it.

Any proofs of the OP databooks actually being written just by Oda?

The manga anyway shows otherwise. Pre ts Luffy has better feats and portrayal than Zoro in the manga, the actual canon.


----------



## goldsaint13 (Apr 30, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Do you have any feat of Zoro reacting to someone on the level of bloodlusted DD?
> Do you have any feat of Zoro tanking an attack on par with bloodlusted DD's attacks?
> Do you have any feat of Zoro blitzing anyone with reflexes on par with bloodlested DD?
> Do you have any feat of Zoro that puts his haki on par with Luffy's?



I don't even have Zoro trying any of these and fail... Only with such demonstration we could come to a conclusion on the matter and we have to wait for Zoro to have a battle to the death.

The strongest opponent Zoro has faced recently is Fujitora who is DD level if not above but there is a too brief comparison to have some kind of proof... None of them has fought to the death, it was just a brief confrontation! Fujitora said that Zoro's slashes are quite strong, meaning that Zoro is in the same league as Law and Luffy but the same way DD said that Sanji is strong, making him of the same league as well... It doesn't mean Zoro or Sanji are equal to Luffy and Law, they are at least not so far, but we can't establish how strong they are exactly until they fight to the death and Zoro has just trashed fodder until now... He's much stronger than the likes he fought, let's wait for him to fight stronger ones!



> The burden to proof that Zoro is equal to Luffy is up to to you.
> 
> Feats and portrayal show Luffy being superior to Zoro. If you wanna prove that is otherwise then bring the feat and proof of the manga that supports your opinion.



I didn't say that they are undeniably equal in the post-timeskip (only in the pre-timeskip)! They might be equal or just close, we have to wait for Zoro to push himself to the limit to state something!



mastergimmy said:


> Zoro+Sanji is enough. I see no intention that Oda will make Luffy so much further from the trio that he can easily solo both of them+whole crew



I see no intention by Oda to make Luffy even stronger than them singularly... Especially Zoro... I think Zoro alone will remain equal to Luffy but even if Luffy is or will be slightly stronger, he will never be able to survive Zoro+Sanji... Just barely surpass Zoro at best...


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 30, 2015)

@goldsaint13

Do you know anything about debating?

The burden of proof is up to the guy that states the affirmative sentence.

If you say that Zoro is equal to Luffy you have to prove it. 

You seem like the typical religious fanatic. 

Luffy has feats that put him above Zoro, ergo by the data we have Luffy>>Zoro.

And as for the pre time skip, the databook doesn't count till you prove that It was wrote solely by Oda himself. And the manga showed Luffy being more powerful than Zoro by a whole tier.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 30, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Do you know anything about debating?
> 
> The burden of proof is up to the guy that states the affirmative sentence.
> 
> ...



No, I'm a philosophy fanatic, therefore I adore logic... 


Yours about Luffy > Zoro is also an affirmative sentence and to make it the way you mean it you need to compare Luffy's best with Zoro's best... And you still can't...



> Luffy has feats that put him above Zoro, ergo by the data we have Luffy>>Zoro.



No, the data we have tells Luffy's full power >> Zoro's partial power

And it's obvious... You have to wait until Zoro's full power to make a comparison...



> And as for the pre time skip, the databook doesn't count till you prove that It was wrote solely by Oda himself.



No, they are not written all by Oda but they are approved by him... Everything written on them is as you said secondary canon! True unless the manga says otherwise, and............



> And the manga showed Luffy being more powerful than Zoro by a whole tier.



................. the manga shows it just in your dreams! Show me the proofs! You need a direct comparison, meaning either Luffy vs Zoro or Luffy and Zoro vs the same "thing" under the same conditions!

We have a Luffy vs Zoro and they looked equal! The manga NEVER EVER shows Luffy > Zoro, you can only make conjectures and assumptions!


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 30, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> No, I'm a philosophy fanatic, therefore I adore logic...
> 
> 
> Yours about Luffy > Zoro is also an affirmative sentence and to make it the way you mean it you need to compare Luffy's best with Zoro's best... And you still can't...



And yet you don't know what a logical fallacy is 

I support my point by providing the feats of Luffy and showing that they are better than Zoro's feats.

I can prove that Luffy's best feats are better than Zoro's best feats. You can't prove that Zoro hasn't used the best he has.



goldsaint13 said:


> No, the data we have tells Luffy's full power >> Zoro's partial power
> 
> And it's obvious... You have to wait until Zoro's full power to make a comparison...



Then prove that Zoro has more than what he has shown.



goldsaint13 said:


> No, they are not written all by Oda but they are approved by him... Everything written on them is as you said secondary canon! True unless the manga says otherwise, and............



Then they are as canon as Shiki's movie, which was agreed not to be canon.

And the manga does put Luffy >> Zoro pre ts.



goldsaint13 said:


> ................ the manga shows it just in your dreams! Show me the proofs! You need a direct comparison, meaning either Luffy vs Zoro or Luffy and Zoro vs the same "thing" under the same conditions!
> 
> We have a Luffy vs Zoro and they looked equal! The manga NEVER EVER shows Luffy > Zoro, you can only make conjectures and assumptions!



The manga has Zoro dying with Luffy's pain and fatigue. The manga has Luffy having better feats in all the stats pre ts.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 30, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> And yet you don't know what a logical fallacy is
> 
> I support my point by providing the feats of Luffy and showing that they are better than Zoro's feats.
> 
> ...



Zoro has just started to even use Hardening... I bet just a couple of months ago you would have said that Zoro couldn't use Hardening and that was the proof his CoA was inferior to Luffy's...  

Zoro has more than he has shown because he didn't fought at his best yet, he didn't even get injured yet and so you can't even calculate what his limit is... 

Only if Zoro would be pushed to a deadly battle and he would show a power inferior to Luffy's your logic could be acceptable... Not yet...



> Then they are as canon as Shiki's movie, which was agreed not to be canon.



Anything that is stated as canon (secondary canon) is canon unless the primary canon states otherwise! Some elements of a secondary canon can be canon and others can not, it depends! 



> And the manga does put Luffy >> Zoro pre ts.



When?

How?

What does prove it?


You are still chatting about this but you don't even have brought a single proof of it...


The manga in the pre-TS has a Luffy vs Zoro battle and it shows equity!

What else?



> The manga has Zoro dying with Luffy's pain and fatigue.



Luffy's pain and fatigue *+ ZORO'S PAIN AND FATIGUE*.


Do you need a further repetition of the concept?


Luffy was KO by his own pain/fatigue only, Zoro was still standing by BOTH pains/fatigues!



> The manga has Luffy having better feats in all the stats pre ts.



Luffy has better feats in some stats and Zoro is some others. Luffy has generally better feats against things he has DF advantages over and a wider versatility! What makes Luffy really "better" (not stronger in the raw sense) is versatility (like the example of being able to reach Pica without help but when it was about to obliterate him they could have done it equally well)!

But this is still partially an assumption unless they both try the same feats (without having advantages or disadvantages) so that we can compare the results.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Apr 30, 2015)

After seeing what Kong Gun did to Mingo, I wouldn't even consider Sanji a real problem.

One of  those would lay his ass out or send him back in the ship's kitchen making sandwiches for everyone like he's supposed to.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 30, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> Zoro has just started to even use Hardening... I bet just a couple of months ago you would have said that Zoro couldn't use Hardening and that was the proof his CoA was inferior to Luffy's...
> 
> Zoro has more than he has shown because he didn't fought at his best yet, he didn't even get injured yet and so you can't even calculate what his limit is...
> 
> Only if Zoro would be pushed to a deadly battle and he would show a power inferior to Luffy's your logic could be acceptable... Not yet...



And if in the next chapters Ussop one shoots Fujitora he'll be admiral level.

But to debate we have to go with what we got, and for what we got Luffy>>Zoro.



goldsaint13 said:


> Anything that is stated as canon (secondary canon) is canon unless the primary canon states otherwise! Some elements of a secondary canon can be canon and others can not, it depends!



Shiki's movie is as canon as your databook.



goldsaint13 said:


> You are still chatting about this but you don't even have brought a single proof of it...



Luffy defeated Lucci, Enel, Crocodile and Moria. People more powerful than anyone Zoro defeated pre ts.



goldsaint13 said:


> The manga in the pre-TS has a Luffy vs Zoro battle and it shows equity!



The same saga Luffy defeated Crocodile, a Logia and shichibuaki, Zoro barely defeated Daz Bones.

The same saga Luffy defeated Lucci, Zoro just defeated Kaku having to use his most powerful move.

The same saga Luffy defeated Moria, Zoro defeated Zombie Brook, and Zoro almost died because of Luffy's pain and fatigue.



goldsaint13 said:


> Luffy's pain and fatigue *+ ZORO'S PAIN AND FATIGUE*.
> 
> 
> Do you need a further repetition of the concept?
> ...



Luffy was just fine, Chopper himself said that Luffy inly needed to sleep to recover. Chopper said that Zoro would have died if not for his medical skills.

Zoro was more or less fine, then Kuma gave him a little of Luffy fatigue and with just that Zoro barely survived.



goldsaint13 said:


> Luffy has better feats in some stats and Zoro is some others. Luffy has generally better feats against things he has DF advantages over and a wider versatility! What makes Luffy really "better" (not stronger in the raw sense) is versatility (like the example of being able to reach Pica without help but when it was about to obliterate him they could have done it equally well)!
> 
> But this is still partially an assumption unless they both try the same feats (without having advantages or disadvantages) so that we can compare the results.



What stat does Zoro have over Luffy? 

Luffy is superior not only overall, he is also superior in every stat.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 30, 2015)

Sanji is probably much stronger than he looked so far... He didn't have the chance to show it... But still, while Zoro has an high probability to still match Luffy if he uses all he has got, Sanji might be a step below...


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 30, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> And if in the next chapters Ussop one shoots Fujitora he'll be admiral level.



Yes, of course, and he he does it without fighting to the death he might even be Yonkou level, got it?



> But to debate we have to go with what we got, and for what we got Luffy>>Zoro.



Knowing that Zoro's performance is incomplete... Different would be if Zoro would have already fought to the death playing all the cards he has...

So, Luffy's complete power >> Zoro's incomplete power


With your logic Zoro would be stronger than Luffy because he did better than him with Hyouzou, the Dragon and Monet... But Luffy wasn't using the best he has, but going just by feats Zoro did better even though even Zoro was not fighting at his best... But this doesn't mean Zoro's stronger... It's just that someone may appear weaker than he is against a not worthy opponent...



> Shiki's movie is as canon as your databook.



As long as a secondary canon does not contradict the primary canon, it's fine!



> Luffy defeated Lucci, Enel, Crocodile and Moria. People more powerful than anyone Zoro defeated pre ts.



But Zoro defeated his own opponents much easier than Luffy did with them! You would be right if they would have had the same difficulties... 

Zoro never tried to fight these ones losing the fight except for Enel but Zoro was not immune to lightning like Luffy was... It's always like this... Never happened even once that Zoro lost because of strength!



> The same saga Luffy defeated Crocodile, a Logia and shichibuaki, Zoro barely defeated Daz Bones.



He got defeated twice by Crocodile and he has been saved by other people having time to discover the secret... Zoro defeated Mr.1 at the first try... As usual, there is a big difference in the difficulties!



> The same saga Luffy defeated Lucci, Zoro just defeated Kaku having to use his most powerful move.



Yes and fighting a much easier battle than Luffy's... Also when Zoro used Ashura, Kaku was hone for good, while when Luffy used Gear 3rd, Lucci just got damaged but the fight went on!

As usual, the weaker the opponent, the easier the battle...



> The same saga Luffy defeated Moria, Zoro defeated Zombie Brook, and Zoro almost died because of Luffy's pain and fatigue.



 You skipped the chapters when Zoro fought Oars that is a super stronger Luffy and got severely damaged... Later he resisted his own damage + Luffy's!



> Luffy was just fine, Chopper himself said that Luffy inly needed to sleep to recover. Chopper said that Zoro would have died if not for his medical skills.



Yes, Luffy just got Luffy's damage, Zoro got Luffy's damage and Zoro's damage! Do I have to explain it easier?



> Zoro was more or less fine, then Kuma gave him a little of Luffy fatigue and with just that Zoro barely survived.



No, Zoro was badly injured and Kuma give him all Luffy's fatigue! Go say these things to people ignoring facts and they may believe them!



> What stat does Zoro have over Luffy?



I already said it:

Same power
Luffy's faster
Zoro has more defense (but only against things Luffy is not immune to)





> Luffy is superior not only overall, he is also superior in every stat.



Forget it! He has shown only to be faster, nothing else!

I mean raw stat, of course as I already said Luffy has a lot more immunities and he's much more versatile...


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## Coruscation (Apr 30, 2015)

You should save your efforts for someone worth debating with. There are people in this section who often make reasonable, unbiased arguments for Luffy > Zoro. But this guy isn't one of them.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 30, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> You should save your efforts for someone worth debating with. There are people in this section who often make reasonable, unbiased arguments for Luffy > Zoro. But this guy isn't one of them.



 Thanks, I got it long ago but I'm used to it! My Haki is undefeated when it's about proving Luffy = Zoro and not reasonable people is a further training... 


Honestly, I'm the first one saying that Luffy is overall better if we consider more than raw combat stats and when I say they are equal I mean strictly combat-wise... I know many people are reasonable about this debate and are aware of how things go... Not all of the people though...


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## Dunno (Apr 30, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> You should save your efforts for someone worth debating with. There are people in this section who often make reasonable, unbiased arguments for Luffy > Zoro. But this guy isn't one of them.



There is nobody anywhere who makes unbiased arguments for anything.  Everyone has their agenda, they might just be better or worse at hiding it.


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## Coruscation (Apr 30, 2015)

_often_

no one is unbiased 100% of the time. That doesn't mean unbiased arguments don't exist. The notion that people who actually strive to be fair and intellectually honest when they debate are just better at hiding their agenda is an unproductive and very sad idea.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 30, 2015)

I'm still waiting for the proofs of Zoro having more power than what he has shown.


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## MYJC (Apr 30, 2015)

Based on what we've seen, Luffy mid-diffs. Let's be honest - 

-Only Zoro and Sanji are relevant here, the rest are easily curbstomped and any G4 attack would easily demolish them. The "weak" trio would probably die if G4 Luffy even looked at them too hard. 
-Luffy in G2 is faster than Sanji (even Doffy admitted that Luffy was fast) and by extension Zoro. That means G4 is faster by an even bigger margin
-Zoro is probably the only person that could tank Kong Gun and keep fighting, and probably the only person whose attacks can even hurt G4 Luffy (if G4 can tank Doffy's attack that easily I doubt there's much Sanji can do that would hurt G4 Luffy much)


So basically, Zoro is the only threat. Sanji gets one- or two- shotted by Kong Gun and the rest are fodder. Unfortunately Zoro just doesn't have the speed to hang with Luffy so he goes down after a couple attacks. He might get a few good blows in but this is a decisive win for Luffy. 


Now of course all this is assuming Zoro doesn't have some technique he hasn't used yet that's comparable to G4, like maybe some new Ashura or something. It's quite possible (even probable) that he does but for now I have to go off what I've seen. Sanjij's attacks are nowhere near strong enough to put down G4 Luffy and Zoro's aren't fast enough.


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## Captain Altintop (Apr 30, 2015)

If Luffy could use G4 infinitely then he would be basically on DD's level or close to it. 

Without Zoro's and Sanji's  new power ups, Luffy mid ( mid to high ) diff Zoro and mid ( mid ) diff Sanji.

Sanji and Zoro  together can definitely push G4 Luffy to high ( very high ) diff or even extreme and adding Franky & Co they can somehow beat their captain.


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## goldsaint13 (May 1, 2015)

Dunno said:


> There is nobody anywhere who makes unbiased arguments for anything.  Everyone has their agenda, they might just be better or worse at hiding it.



My agenda is so clear that even my profile is set up at it! Hahaha! 



Coruscation said:


> _often_
> 
> no one is unbiased 100% of the time. That doesn't mean unbiased arguments don't exist. The notion that people who actually strive to be fair and intellectually honest when they debate are just better at hiding their agenda is an unproductive and very sad idea.



Even though my agenda is not hidden I'm intellectually honest and I admit that counting overall abilities Luffy can be defined a "better" fighter than Zoro, but my goal is to prove that they had (and possibly have) equal raw combat power!



Zuhaitz said:


> I'm still waiting for the proofs of Zoro having more power than what he has shown.



Check his battle difficulties and end of battle conditions and it's clear he has just scratched the surface!

Luffy himself is the proof that judging a character strength based on his fights against weaker foes is misleading... Comparing Luffy vs Hyouzou and Zoro vs Hyouzou or Luffy vs Monet and Zoro vs Monet, Zoro appears stronger than Luffy:

This proves that battles against weaker foes give display only of a small part of a character power.



MYJC said:


> Now of course all this is assuming Zoro doesn't have some technique he hasn't used yet that's comparable to G4, like maybe some new Ashura or something.



 Exactly!
Something like a full body Hardening new version Ashura!


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## Zuhaitz (May 1, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> Check his battle difficulties and end of battle conditions and it's clear he has just scratched the surface!
> 
> Luffy himself is the proof that judging a character strength based on his fights against weaker foes is misleading... Comparing Luffy vs Hyouzou and Zoro vs Hyouzou or Luffy vs Monet and Zoro vs Monet, Zoro appears stronger than Luffy:
> 
> ...



Not at all. Luffy almost died after is battle with Hody, and he had still some tricks he didn't use.

Zoro didn't have extreme troubles against Kaku, did he? But he used is best move and his maximum power to defeat him.

The difficulty of their fights doesn't prove that Zoro hasn't use his maximum power yet.

Still waiting for actual proofs, not your opinion on the matter.


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## goldsaint13 (May 1, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Not at all. Luffy almost died after is battle with Hody, and he had still some tricks he didn't use.



Luffy's max power is the one used with DD, I mean G4... Before he used a lot but not all! Zoro used a lot less because he had weaker opponents!



> Zoro didn't have extreme troubles against Kaku, did he? But he used is best move and his maximum power to defeat him.



Yes because Kaku was strong enough to make him fight seriously but not to resist to him while he was fighting seriously... 



> The difficulty of their fights doesn't prove that Zoro hasn't use his maximum power yet.
> 
> Still waiting for actual proofs, not your opinion on the matter.



Just compare Zoro before he used Hardening... You could have said that it was his max power and he didn't have Hardening with your logic, but he has Hardening (I already knew even before he used it because I look forward things) and he showed it just now...

The meaning is: he could always have something he didn't show yet (even Luffy I imagine no one could have known he had G4 before he used it) and the only way to have the proof that Zoro, or someone else, has shown all he has to show, is seeing him fighting to the death... At that point, if he would have something more he would have used it.


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## Zuhaitz (May 1, 2015)

Luffy hasn't used all he has, he still has the G5, G6, G7, G8, etc.

Whatever you believe Zoro may have hidden yet, Luffy has twice as much.


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## goldsaint13 (May 1, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Luffy hasn't used all he has, he still has the G5, G6, G7, G8, etc.
> 
> Whatever you believe Zoro may have hidden yet, Luffy has twice as much.



When Luffy will be brought at his limit and will fight a battle to the death (like the one he's fighting now), a battle he barely survives to, we will know that he will be at his very limit, because otherwise he would have used all he has to win before dieing.


The same goes for Zoro and anyone else.


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## Zuhaitz (May 1, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> When Luffy will be brought at his limit and will fight a battle to the death (like the one he's fighting now), a battle he barely survives to, we will know that he will be at his very limit, because otherwise he would have used all he has to win before dieing.
> 
> 
> The same goes for Zoro and anyone else.





He barely survived his battle with Hody and he didn't use the G4.

Zoro survived easily against Kaku and he did use his best move.

The difficulty of the battle can't prove if a character has used or not his maximum power.


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## goldsaint13 (May 1, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> He barely survived his battle with Hody and he didn't use the G4.
> 
> Zoro survived easily against Kaku and he did use his best move.
> 
> The difficulty of the battle can't prove if a character has used or not his maximum power.



Often they need an opponent they can't defeat normally, someone stronger than them, to make them use all they have! Zoro used Sanzen Sekai (that was and remained his best technique until Ashura) because he faced Mihawk that was too strong for him at the time... If he wouldn't have met Mihawk how could we have known that he had Sanzen Sekai?
Usually Luffy's opponents are stronger and bring him more to the limit, forcing him to show his best, while Zoro often doesn't need to... It was this way in the pre-TS and now in the post-TS it has been extremed...
It happened too many times that characters had more cards in their hands than what it looked initially and this should make you aware that you should be very prudent saying that X > Y if neither X nor Y have shown all they have or you are not completely sure they have... It happened too often...
That's why I say that the only way is a direct comparison of some sort...
There is only a way to know how strong Zoro really is and it would be him fighting Fujitora... Since Fujitora is the same tier as DD, we could finally know how much power Zoro is still hiding, but if he just fought fodder, it would be like judging Luffy from his fight with Monet...

The only thing you could say now is that what Luffy has shown >> what Zoro has shown, but it doesn't mean that their true power would have the same comparison... It could be Luffy = Zoro or even Zoro > Luffy...

It needs much more than we have seen to make a safer assumption (at least) on what they could really do...

As I always say, statements are better... Statements solve everything... If either of them would say: "Now I will show my max power" or if a Databook will state that a character is equal or stronger than another, we could have a guidance line to understand if they have shown all or they still hide something...


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## Zuhaitz (May 1, 2015)

And often they use the best they got against someone they mid diff, like in Zoro's case


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## goldsaint13 (May 1, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> And often they use the best they got against someone they mid diff, like in Zoro's case



This is low diff but it happens that they didn't use it even in mid high diff like Luffy vs Hody... 

Usually we know when a character has used all because he actually states it verbally, even though it's likely that what someone used in a deadly battle is all he has but he might use all even in an easy battle or keep something hidden even in an high diff battle...

We need statements to have the definitive confirmation but many cases in the past have thought us that unless someone fights a battle to the death, there are high probabilities he has more... Unless we have the statement: "I'll show you all I've got!"

When Zoro used Ashura against Kaku, even though the battle was mid diff I knew it was his best because he said that he would have fought at his best, in fact even during desperate fights like that with Kuma or the Pacifista, the best Zoro used was still Ashura, because it was his best and the statement he made about using his best has been useful!


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## Canute87 (May 1, 2015)

Freecss said:


> Luffy loses, Zoro and Sanji will be enough.



Sanji can't block any of Luffy's G4 attacks.


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## MYJC (May 1, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Sanji can't block any of Luffy's G4 attacks.




Also, G4 Luffy laughs off most if not all of Sanji's attacks. Luffy took a hamstring from Doffy without even bothering to block and literally ignored it and taunted him. 

Few if any of Sanji's attacks are strong enough to hurt G4 Luffy.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 1, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Sanji can't block any of Luffy's G4 attacks.



Sadly, true. Oda dun goofed with Vergo cracking his fibula.  
He'd have to hide behind Zoro's Swords 
Before Zoro gets knocked across the city 



MYJC said:


> Also, G4 Luffy laughs off most if not all of Sanji's attacks. Luffy took a hamstring from Doffy without even bothering to block and literally ignored it and taunted him.
> 
> Few if any of Sanji's attacks are strong enough to hurt G4 Luffy.



Athlete kick/Hamstring attack of Doffy has 2 phases: a) Kick them away b) have the strings dangling from his foot 'whip' and slice the opponent that was sent flying. Thus it has a blunt attack phase and a sharp attack phase. Since the blunt force part failed against G4 luffy, the sharp part didn't matter. Without it it's more of a regular kick from doffy.

Sanji on the other hand has flaming kicks, that should do some damage right away to luffy. Luffy's main guard in G4 seems to be his 'air bag' effect causing attacks to not do damage on a deeper level. Fire can still sear through to the deeper tissues.


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## goldsaint13 (May 2, 2015)

Considering what Sanji has shown until now, you are right... But DD initially did the same to Luffy that what he did to Sanji... Sanji may just lacked the chance to show more...

Actually in the early arcs of the pre-TS Sanji is considered a little below Luffy's/Zoro's level but recently he seemed much closer... What Sanji lacked compared to them has been always the motivation to be the best (Zeff explained him in the beginning), but it's also amazing that a man with no DF and no super strong weapons can be so strong anyway... One like him shall rely all on Haki, but Haki can be strong with motivation, is his motivation strong enough?


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## Zuhaitz (May 2, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> This is low diff but it happens that they didn't use it even in mid high diff like Luffy vs Hody...
> 
> Usually we know when a character has used all because he actually states it verbally, even though it's likely that what someone used in a deadly battle is all he has but he might use all even in an easy battle or keep something hidden even in an high diff battle...
> 
> ...




So in other words, you have no proofs of Zoro not having used his maximum power, and neither of Luffy having used his maximum power, all you got to defend your point of Zoro being anywhere near Luffy's level is your fanfiction, in which Zoro hasn't use any of his real power, while Luffy has.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 2, 2015)

goldsaint13 said:


> Considering what Sanji has shown until now, you are right... But DD initially did the same to Luffy that what he did to Sanji... Sanji may just lacked the chance to show more...
> 
> Actually in the early arcs of the pre-TS Sanji is considered a little below Luffy's/Zoro's level but recently he seemed much closer... What Sanji lacked compared to them has been always the motivation to be the best (Zeff explained him in the beginning), but it's also amazing that a man with no DF and no super strong weapons can be so strong anyway... One like him shall rely all on Haki, but Haki can be strong with motivation, is his motivation strong enough?



Were you responding to me?

Anyway, it is true that Sanji hasn't shown his full capabilities in all probability... but the question is would his new moves be compatible when it comes to fighting with luffy? What would his new moves be? Speed, defense, offense?  He has shown a degree of weakness in his bones against vergo (which, tbf, he always has even against gin, Bon clay etc)

With people like Luffy, you know where their moves are going (or have a general idea). With Zoro, you know he hasn't shown his Asura, haki etc. We also know he has good defense and reaction speed, so we can project a level.

With Sanji, it's hard to project a level, because a) When it comes to haki he has been said to excel in CoO. This would be very useful, but his level is still not very high yet. For instance against Luffy, in skypiea, one of the fat priests (satori?) predicted that he was going to stretch. But Sanji couldn't predict Doffy's strings, or detect vergo's power behind the kick. We have mainly seen small times uses. Against Vergo, we haven't seen much of his CoA used defensively, and he doesn't specialize in that either (still he could have a good enough CoA). But even with CoA, can his defense stand up to something like a Kong Gun? With Luffy we have now seen him using Koka type hardening in conjunction with his fruit for G4 in a novel way (to the surprise of Doflamingo), which is arguably the best feat of Haki from the  Monster trio. 

The main route I see for Sanji to get exponentially stronger, faster and durable, is food. Certain attack cuisine dishes that boost his levels instantly, and heal him quick as well. Sort of like rumble balls for chopper, or those energy steroids for Hody. Another way could be to increase the heat of his flames.

Overall, Sanji's attack seems fine, but his defense needs work. And I'm not sure how to scale a level based on that.



> But DD initially did the same to Luffy that what he did to Sanji



While you are right about this, Luffy only started matching and getting the upper hand against Doffy when he was hit with the Gamma knife (to the point of even pushing back Doffy in his base form in CQC). I am one of those who feel that Doffy's performance suffered from the Gamma knife, so Luffy managing to blitz doflamingo here, may not indicate that he can blitz Zoro or Sanji.


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## Yagami1211 (May 2, 2015)

Can't Usopp give Impact Dials to the whole team as they try to absorb Luffy's attacks ?


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## Quikdraw7777 (May 2, 2015)

The result of one clean Kong Gun on Sanji:


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## Dellinger (May 2, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> While you are right about this, Luffy only started matching and getting the upper hand against Doffy when he was hit with the Gamma knife (to the point of even pushing back Doffy in his base form in CQC). I am one of those who feel that Doffy's performance suffered from the Gamma knife, so Luffy managing to blitz doflamingo here, may not indicate that he can blitz Zoro or Sanji.



This constant effort of making Luffy seem piss weak and saying that his feats now are happening only because of the gamma knife should stop.Oda made it clear that they were on a similar condition before G4.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 2, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> This constant effort of making Luffy seem piss weak and saying that his feats now are happening only because of the gamma knife should stop.Oda made it clear that they were on a similar condition before G4.



Oda indicated both of them have weakened, yes. How much for either? That is subjective.


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## Canute87 (May 2, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Oda indicated both of them have weakened, yes. How much for either? That is subjective.



Well not subjective to the point where people can use it as an argument with 100% validity.

Basically people saying Flamingo is far far more weakened than Luffy doesn't really fly too well.  That is the unknown variable.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 2, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Well not subjective to the point where people can use it as an argument *with 100% validity*.



I tried to avoid doing that by saying:



> I am one of those who feel ...



I just based my very subjective and arguable opinion on how I observed and interpreted  Doflamingo's performance with Luffy. 



> Basically people saying Flamingo is *far far more weakened* than Luffy doesn't really fly too well.  That is the unknown variable.



I don't know about 'far far more weakened'. But to me, he had it worse, enough to tip the scales in favor of Luffy, when before it was in favor of Mingo. Though not overwhelmingly so, in the sense they could still keep up (somewhat) with each other (before and after), just enough to tell us who has the advantage at which point.


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## goldsaint13 (May 2, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> So in other words, you have no proofs of Zoro not having used his maximum power, and neither of Luffy having used his maximum power, all you got to defend your point of Zoro being anywhere near Luffy's level is your fanfiction, in which Zoro hasn't use any of his real power, while Luffy has.



Luffy might have more, I admit it... I just say that the past has proved that judging a character by what he has shown in a given moment is not reliable to determine what he actually has! The only way to have proofs is by statements!



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Were you responding to me?
> 
> Anyway, it is true that Sanji hasn't shown his full capabilities in all probability... but the question is would his new moves be compatible when it comes to fighting with luffy? What would his new moves be? Speed, defense, offense?  He has shown a degree of weakness in his bones against vergo (which, tbf, he always has even against gin, Bon clay etc)
> 
> With people like Luffy, you know where their moves are going (or have a general idea). With Zoro, you know he hasn't shown his Asura, haki etc. We also know he has good defense and reaction speed, so we can project a level.



Yes, agree! As for now he has shown just regular Diable Jambe + not visible Haki! The very basic standard! It's clear that he seemed to be weaker than the big ones but he still has to fight to the death against someone showing all he eventually has! 



> With Sanji, it's hard to project a level, because a) When it comes to haki he has been said to excel in CoO. This would be very useful, but his level is still not very high yet. For instance against Luffy, in skypiea, one of the fat priests (satori?) predicted that he was going to stretch. But Sanji couldn't predict Doffy's strings, or detect vergo's power behind the kick. We have mainly seen small times uses. Against Vergo, we haven't seen much of his CoA used defensively, and he doesn't specialize in that either (still he could have a good enough CoA). But even with CoA, can his defense stand up to something like a Kong Gun? With Luffy we have now seen him using Koka type hardening in conjunction with his fruit for G4 in a novel way (to the surprise of Doflamingo), which is arguably the best feat of Haki from the  Monster trio.



Yes, I have been making the same considerations! Actually Sanji should have Koka as well but it might be not his field of expertize... He may have an excellent CoO to a level he didn't use it yet (beside feeling the real heart of girls XD)... Zoro has probably just started to use his CoA and its real power... He just used Koka and it was just the surface! Sanji should excel in CoO... But...............



> The main route I see for Sanji to get exponentially stronger, faster and durable, is food. Certain attack cuisine dishes that boost his levels instantly, and heal him quick as well. Sort of like rumble balls for chopper, or those energy steroids for Hody. Another way could be to increase the heat of his flames.



 Hell yes!!! I didn't thought it before but.......... Zoro is so strong because he gets power from his main expertize that is swordsmanship... Sanji is somewhat inferior because he has been a cook who also fights, until now.............. His key to reach the same peaks as Luffy, Zoro and Law may be to use cooking as a weapon! He said he mastered the recipes from the Okamas!!! They might have a purpose in battle, they may increase his stats a lot! He has no weapons and no DF like Luffy and Zoro do, he needs to increase his physical power dramatically like the CP9 did with the Zoan DFs....... Yours is indeed a great idea!



> While you are right about this, Luffy only started matching and getting the upper hand against Doffy when he was hit with the Gamma knife (to the point of even pushing back Doffy in his base form in CQC). I am one of those who feel that Doffy's performance suffered from the Gamma knife, so Luffy managing to blitz doflamingo here, may not indicate that he can blitz Zoro or Sanji.



Of course! If Zoro can connect a powerful super attack with Koka swords he can surely slash Luffy and Sanji can at least save time!


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## Canute87 (May 2, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I tried to avoid doing that by saying:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The G2 attacks had very little effect of doflamingo.

Are you going to argue that if Luffy was at full strength  he wouldn't need gear 4 to do damage?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 2, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> The G2 attacks had very little effect of doflamingo.



It seemed to be the same with arlong too right? Luffy's attacks didn't seem to do much damage and stuff...



> Are you going to argue that if Luffy was at full strength  he wouldn't need gear 4 to do damage?



Are you asking Luffy at full power vs Doffy post Gamma knife?


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## Canute87 (May 2, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> It seemed to be the same with arlong too right? Luffy's attacks didn't seem to do much damage and stuff...



Don't remember that fight much other than luffy was dicking around a lot.




> Are you asking Luffy at full power vs Doffy post Gamma knife?



Yes.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 2, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Don't remember that fight much other than luffy was dicking around a lot.



Even when luffy connected with serious named hits, arlong seemed to take them quite well.



> Yes.



Then yeah.... I feel if Luffy could connect with G2 and even base hits he could've eventually worn down doflamingo with his resolve. Only problem being it would take too much time. Time he didn't have.

Too much?


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