# Z (Tenchi Muyo) vs. Giygas(Earthbound)



## OniLordMiki (May 18, 2009)

This is one to really test out the endurance of these guys. Z's considered one of the toughest mo-fo's in anime history. Can he beat the Evil that is Giygas.


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## Lucifeller (May 18, 2009)

In one word, no.

In fact, I'm not even sure the Choushin can do it. For all their powers, they are not omnipotent, and it took pretty much the hand of The One Above All smiting Giygas to put him on the shelf...

That's just me though. But frankly, when you put Giygas in a vs. match, what you should ask yourself is:

"Can the other guy in this versus beat Azathoth?"

Because that's more or less what Giygas is.


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## Raigen (May 18, 2009)

The Chousin are actually omnipotent. They created the multiverse. They created an infinite number of Eternity level beings to watch over each and every universe/dimension that they created (D-3, for example). They can create/destroy/reset the multiverse at will and they have however many Light Hawk Wings that they want.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 18, 2009)

Raigen said:


> The Chousin are actually omnipotent. They created the multiverse. They created an infinite number of Eternity level beings to watch over each and every universe/dimension that they created (D-3, for example). They can create/destroy/reset the multiverse at will and they have however many Light Hawk Wings that they want.



The fact that there are three of them kinda says they aren't omnipotent.  That and the fact that there is a being stronger than they are (Kami-Tenchi).


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## Lucifeller (May 18, 2009)

The Choushin aren't omnipotent because they can stop each other.

Omnipotent, by definition, is someone whose power is such that if they get a mind they want to do something, NOTHING can stop them. Kami Tenchi, supposedly, should be this once he matures, superceding even the Choushin, which further drives home the point they are not omnipotent, just incredibly powerful.

Plus, THREE omnipotents coexisting? Given the nature of omnipotence, that's not only unlikely, it's flat out wrong.


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## Raigen (May 18, 2009)

Look at fiction in general. There are hundreds of beings that're Omnipotent. Eternity is Omnipotent, but he's outclassed by an IG wielder and the Living Tribunal. It's because of comics/manga that there are varying levels of Omnipotents. An IG wielder has True Omnipotence on a Universal Scale. Living Tribunal has Omnipotence on a Multiversal Scale. The Chousin, each, have True Omnipotence on a Multiversal Scale (they're not bound by laws/rules set down by TOAA, or Kami-Tenchi).

Also, just because there is a being higher than they are doesn't make them any less-Omnipotent.


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## Endless Mike (May 18, 2009)

Ignore Raigen, he's an idiot. All of those beings he is talking about are nigh/pseudo-omnipotent.

Omnipotent = Supreme Being, nothing greater, can do absolutely anything, has no limits whatsoever.

Anyway Z can't win, he has no way to hurt a being like Giygas. He could probably survive against him though with his LHWs, or bailing to another universe if necessary.


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## Lucifeller (May 18, 2009)

Eternity isn't omnipotent. The only Marvel character that's omnipotent in the true sense of the word is The One Above All. Even the Living Tribunal counts as an extremely powerful cosmic entity.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 18, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Look at fiction in general. There are hundreds of beings that're Omnipotent. Eternity is Omnipotent, but he's outclassed by an IG wielder and the Living Tribunal. It's because of comics/manga that there are varying levels of Omnipotents. An IG wielder has True Omnipotence on a Universal Scale. Living Tribunal has Omnipotence on a Multiversal Scale. The Chousin, each, have True Omnipotence on a Multiversal Scale (they're not bound by laws/rules set down by TOAA, or Kami-Tenchi).
> *
> Also, just because there is a being higher than they are doesn't make them any less-Omnipotent.*



Everything you say about this issue now no longer matters.  You just proved you don't know what omnipotent means.  Learn the word before you try applying it to characters.  Omnipotent means exactly that there can be no one stronger than you.  The only characters you just listed that are omnipotent are TOAA and Kami-Tenchi.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 18, 2009)

Oh shit, incoming omnipotence debate...


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## Raigen (May 18, 2009)

Maybe it can be explained in terms you understand. Is 'God' omnipotent? Sure. But it doesn't matter, because no one cares. The Infinity Gauntlet makes you *Omnipotent*. It's openly stated. It's also stated that Other figures like Death, Eternity and Epoch are all Omnipotent. It doesn't matter, the IG outclasses all of them, and the Tribunal flat out outranks the IG. Similarly, the Heart of the Universe outclasses the Living Tribunal..


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 18, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Maybe it can be explained in terms you understand. Is 'God' omnipotent? Sure. But it doesn't matter, because no one cares. The Infinity Gauntlet makes you *Omnipotent*. It's openly stated. It's also stated that Other figures like Death, Eternity and Epoch are all Omnipotent. It doesn't matter, the IG outclasses all of them, and the Tribunal flat out outranks the IG. Similarly, the Heart of the Universe outclasses the Living Tribunal..



I'll try explaining it in terms you can understand.

None of them are omnipotent.  You cannot be stronger than omnipotent.  It is the ultimate level of power.  You can do literally anything and everything, you defy all logic and limits.  The only omnipotent in Marvel is TOAA.

Just give up.  If you keep trying to argue about something that you clearly do not understand you will just make yourself look like more of an idiot.


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## Raigen (May 18, 2009)

You can go crawl into a corner now.


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## Stroev (May 18, 2009)

Makes me wonder how exactly Gigyas can be hurt, maybe aside from reality warping.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 18, 2009)

Raigen said:


> You can go crawl into a corner now.


I guess LT wasn't in the Universe at that particular moment.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 18, 2009)

Raigen said:


> You can go crawl into a corner now.



Oh hey look, something that doesn't prove your point.  I would hide in a corner why?

Like I just said, you don't know what Omnipotent means, and now you look like a bigger idiot for it.

I will try and make this very simple for you.  Thanos with IG or HOTU is still below TOAA.  That means that Thanos with IG and HOTU is not Omnipotent.

You wrong, nothing you can say can change this.  You can't be stronger than Omnipotent, this is not something you can debate about.  It is very hilarious that you can't understand simple concepts like this.


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## Raigen (May 18, 2009)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I guess LT wasn't in the Universe at that particular moment.



LT Exists outside of the Universe, always. And the LT decided not to get involved in Thanos' gambit and had no problems with him becoming *God*. It still doesn't take away from the fact that LT can shut down the Infinity Gauntlet if he really wants to, and did after Warlock gave it up. The IG makes the wielder Omnipotent, and still LT was on a higher tier. Some people don't get that Omnipotence has different meanings because it's used in a fictional universe. The 'actual' meaning is completely irrelevant.


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## Herekic (May 18, 2009)

Z likely can't kill giygas, but can giygas kill Z?


unless he can produce power significantly higher then universe busting, it might just be a draw. neither able to kill the other


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 18, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Some people don't get that Omnipotence has different meanings because it's used in a fictional universe. The 'actual' meaning is completely irrelevant.



Ok, lemme explain this to you. In the OBD we only use the actual meaning. That being "all powerful". Not _all powerful in a single universe_, *all powerful period*. Marvel's tiers have no place in OBD debates. Those that aren't the very top are called near/nigh/pseudo omnipotent. It's not hard to follow.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 18, 2009)

Raigen said:


> LT Exists outside of the Universe, always. And the LT decided not to get involved in Thanos' gambit and had no problems with him becoming *God*. It still doesn't take away from the fact that LT can shut down the Infinity Gauntlet if he really wants to, and did after Warlock gave it up. The IG makes the wielder Omnipotent, and still LT was on a higher tier. Some people don't get that Omnipotence has different meanings because it's used in a fictional universe. The 'actual' meaning is completely irrelevant.



You don't get that it doesn't matter if it is fictional, you can't get stronger than Omnipotent.  It doesn't matter how the fiction defines Omnipotent.  If they have a character they define as Omnipotent, and then also have a character stronger than that, guess what?  That character isn't really Omnipotent, no matter how much you flaunt your ignorance and try to claim it to be true.  Fictional definitions mean shit here, know why?  *Because this is the OBD, not the fictional world.*

If you are considered Omnipotent and there is something you can't do, you aren't Omnipotent.  Honestly, I don't think I can make this any simpler.

If there is someone more powerful than you you aren't Omnipotent.

If you can't do something you aren't Omnipotent.

If you have any limits at all you are not Omnipotent.

So again, you are wrong.


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## Raigen (May 18, 2009)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Ok, lemme explain this to you. In the OBD we only use the actual meaning. That being "all powerful". Not _all powerful in a single universe_, *all powerful period*. Marvel's tiers have no place in OBD debates. Those that aren't the very top are called near/nigh/pseudo omnipotent. It's not hard to follow.



Regardless of anyone elses classifications, it's the Companies that own these figures that decide who is Omnipotent and to what degree. Marvel stated that the Infinity Gauntlet makes the user *Omnipotent*, period. But it didn't matter because they also state that the Living Tribunal is still an entity that exists beyond that. TOAA has no actual meaning, since TOAA is either the Writer or the Company, and really any debate or battle between 'omnipotent' figures is immediately classified as "stupid" from the get-go.

Try and do a fight with L-Sama from Slayers and the Presence from DC. You can't. They are both TOAA of their respective series and if you tried it on OBG, going by your classifications, neither could actually be 'omnipotent' because they would effectively both be equal in status, which means that the title of TOAA would not apply. It's a stalemate.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 18, 2009)

None of which means anything here. They can be omnipotent in Marvel's silly little system all they want, they wont be called that here. It's set up the way it is to avoid confusion in fights and it wont change for you. See here for how it works in the OBD.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 18, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Regardless of anyone elses classifications, it's the Companies that own these figures that decide who is Omnipotent and to what degree. Marvel stated that the Infinity Gauntlet makes the user *Omnipotent*, period. But it didn't matter because they also state that the Living Tribunal is still an entity that exists beyond that. TOAA has no actual meaning, since TOAA is either the Writer or the Company, and really any debate or battle between 'omnipotent' figures is immediately classified as "stupid" from the get-go.



Doesn't matter what Marvel calls them.  This isn't Marvel, this is the OBD.  Marvel can call them Omnipotent all they want, the fact is that they aren't Omnipotent because they have a limit.  There is someone more powerful than they are, so no they aren't.  You are wrong, get over it.



> Try and do a fight with L-Sama from Slayers and the Presence from DC. You can't. They are both TOAA of their respective series and if you tried it on OBG, going by your classifications, neither could actually be 'omnipotent' because they would effectively both be equal in status, which means that the title of TOAA would not apply. It's a stalemate.



No fucking duh it's a stalemate, why do you think in matches between different verses that each have an Omnipotent anyone with a brain always says no Omnipotents?  It would be a stalemate, you can't be more Omnipotent than another.  Btw, Omnipotence would still apply because they aren't from the same work of fiction.


I will try again to make things simple for you:

This is the OBD, we only consider someone Omnipotent if they actually fit the criteria, not just because their universe incorrectly assigns them the title.

For someone to be Omnipotent, they have to have no limits at all.  They literally can do anything and everything, there is absolutely no limit to their power.

If there is someone more powerful than a certain character, then that certain character has a limit.

If that certain character has a limit, and since an Omnipotent has no limits, that certain character is not Omnipotent.


I honestly hope that wasn't too complicated for you, though I have a feeling it was.


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## Endless Mike (May 18, 2009)

Darkseid and Odin have both been referred to as omnipotent, but they obviously are not. So therefore those statements are considered hyperboles/exaggerations, or simply wrong. The second definition of omnipotence is sometimes used but that's not how we use the word in the OBD.


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## ∅ (May 18, 2009)

Raigen said:


> They created *an infinite number* of Eternity level beings to watch over each and every universe/dimension that they created (D-3, for example).


And with "an infinite number" you mean twelve, right? D-1 - D-12.



Lucifeller said:


> Plus, THREE omnipotents coexisting? Given the nature of omnipotence, that's not only unlikely, it's flat out wrong.


The problem here is that you say that there can't exists three, because contradictions might occur. For instance that one of them wants something that one of the others don't.

But this is exactly where the omnipotence paradox comes into play. What if the omnipotent "wanted" to test if his will could contradict itself--i.e. God making a stone so heavy he wouldn't be able to lift it.

So if you reject logic to accept omnipotence, you would have to be open for the idea of more than one omnipotent for the very same reason that you're open to one.



Endless Mike said:


> The second definition of omnipotence is sometimes used but that's not how we use the word in the OBD.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the first definition simply induce infinite power? Which entities such as cube beings possess.


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## Hellspawn28 (May 19, 2009)

> *Also, just because there is a being higher than they are doesn't make them any less-Omnipotent*.



 Sorry but that made me laugh. Also what does any of the Marvel fighters have to do with this thread since this topic is about Z against Giyas not him against TLT or One Above All. Not a master of Earthbound or anything since I only very little about it but can't he manipulate the evil in the minds of living beings, both human and animal, and he can apparently manipulate even the forms of inanimate objects? I'm not sure if the Light Hawk Wings will kill him or not?


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## Lucifeller (May 19, 2009)

To put it bluntly, I don't think any form of energy can injure Giygas, period. Ness had become a nexus of all the psi-power in the entire UNIVERSE - and he still was unable to even scratch Giygas, much less defend against his attacks.

In that battle, you literally can only pray. That's it.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 19, 2009)

A said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the first definition simply induce infinite power?


Technically yes, but if there is something that can undo anything you do and there is nothing you can do about it you don't really have unlimited power.



> Which entities such as cube beings possess.


In Marvel's measurement system yes, not literally. Like I said yesterday, Marvel can use that system all they want it just doesn't apply here. Cosmic Cubes have limits that are clearly defined thus not truely unlimited as far as OBD is concerned. Not saying Marvel can't use that system, they can if they want to, it just doesn't have a place in vs debates here.


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## strongarm85 (May 19, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Ignore Raigen, he's an idiot. All of those beings he is talking about are nigh/pseudo-omnipotent.
> 
> Omnipotent = Supreme Being, nothing greater, can do absolutely anything, has no limits whatsoever.
> 
> Anyway Z can't win, he has no way to hurt a being like Giygas. He could probably survive against him though with his LHWs, or bailing to another universe if necessary.



Giygas is capable of existing in every dimension which possess evil. As long as the argument can be made that Z is evil, Giygas will exists the same dimension as him.


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## Raigen (May 19, 2009)

Z is really not evil. He was just jealous of Tenchi. You can take all of your power crap and it'd still mean nothing. The LHW are infinite in power and ability. They're a plot-device, the most overpowered one imaginable. It wouldn't matter what Gigyas throws at him because it'd be turned to nothing by the LHW.


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## strongarm85 (May 19, 2009)

Yeah, but the Light Hawk wings have never proven themselves to be effective against abstract beings. Giygas is the concept of evil. It took an immortal to defeat him, but he wasn't destroyed by the immortal.


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## Lucifeller (May 20, 2009)

Essentially, this would be at best a stalemate. There's basically nothing Z can do to Giygas, but a case could be made for Z being able to escape in another dimension, simply because Giygas is basically Azathoth - blind and mindless. He might just not care where Z escapes to, and turn his attention back to the rest of the universe he's in.

By the way, there's a difference between all-powerful and omnipotent. Being all-powerful doesn't necessarily imply you cannot be defeated, it just implies your power lets you do things that would normally be impossible. It says nothing about your achievements being impossible to undo.

Note how only The One Above All is specifically defined 'Omnipotent' in the Marvelverse, everyone else is called 'all-powerful' or 'a cosmic power', except for the Living Tribunal in its earlier appearances, but the LT is technically the material executor of the One Above All's will, so it makes sense.

Omnipotence, on the other hand, means quite simply that what you say, do, think, dream or anything else inbetween is law, and if someone doesn't like it, TOUGH LUCK, because you are top dog and everyone else gets pimped out for free.


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## strongarm85 (May 20, 2009)

Even if Z escaped to another dimension, in OBD terms that's fleeing the battle, which counts as a loss. The fact that Z can run away doesn't help him win.


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## Endless Mike (May 21, 2009)

A said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the first definition simply induce infinite power? Which entities such as cube beings possess.



No, it means infinite ability. I've explained the difference between infinite power and ability several times before.



Lucifeller said:


> To put it bluntly, I don't think any form of energy can injure Giygas, period. Ness had become a nexus of all the psi-power in the entire UNIVERSE - and he still was unable to even scratch Giygas, much less defend against his attacks.
> 
> In that battle, you literally can only pray. That's it.



Well I do remember that the heroes' attacks were doing damage to him, but that might just be game mechanics.



strongarm85 said:


> Even if Z escaped to another dimension, in OBD terms that's fleeing the battle, which counts as a loss. The fact that Z can run away doesn't help him win.



I said he could survive at most.


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