# Post skip nami and usopp vs preskip zoro



## marco55656 (May 21, 2013)

Knowledge= zoro has none, nami and usopp know zoro is a strong swordsman
State of mind= want to kill but still in character
location=SA


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## tupadre97 (May 21, 2013)

Zoro rapes.


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## zorokuma (May 21, 2013)

gotta give this to zoro.


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## Doma (May 21, 2013)

I give it to Usopp and Nami. They're a lot stronger now than people give them credit for.


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## Lawliet (May 21, 2013)

Zoro rapes them both.


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## TrolonoaZoro (May 22, 2013)

Two heavily stigmatic fighters who other qualities. *Only Usopp's tankability i guess* becomes pointless when face wit him. 
Faster reflexes. 
Range fighter.
Much more bloodlusted than those two.
They're cowards. (Zoro is that guy who people can feel his aura once he's out for blood)
And what else? Oh yeah he rapes. 
At best they can stop the inevitable for a second but then again, his will vs their will as I said before.


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## DoflaMihawk (May 22, 2013)

Honestly, there's a fair chance either one of these two could beat Zoro on their own, but two on one is overkill.


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## Bansai (May 22, 2013)

I'm giving this to Zoro. In order to defeat Zoro you need physical power and speed. If you can't dodge or block his attacks, you're pretty much fucked. I can't imagine that Usopp and Nami are physically good enough to keep up with Zoro, especially because none of them is a real close combatant. Nami may use her Clima Tact to hit her opponents sometimes, yet I don't think that's enough.
The only way they could win this is if they had time to prepare themselves in order to trap Zoro. Mirage Tempo could be extremely useful here, but if Zoro stood right in front of them, there's no way they could perform something like that.


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## marco55656 (May 22, 2013)

Emporio Ivankov said:


> I'm giving this to Zoro. In order to defeat Zoro you need physical power and speed. If you can't dodge or block his attacks, you're pretty much fucked. I can't imagine that Usopp and Nami are physically good enough to keep up with Zoro, especially because none of them is a real close combatant. Nami may use her Clima Tact to hit her opponents sometimes, yet I don't think that's enough.
> The only way they could win this is if they had time to prepare themselves in order to trap Zoro. Mirage Tempo could be extremely useful here, but if Zoro stood right in front of them, there's no way they could perform something like that.



Why would you need physical power? enel fucked him up with lightning why couldnt nami


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## Marik Swift (May 22, 2013)

I mostly agree with what Empori says. The two lack the physical capability needed to defeat Zoro. Most of their attacks he could dodge, etc, and what he won't dodge he can tank - I wouldn't put it past him to tank their collaberation attack since it was used to defeat weak opponents like Baby 5 and Buffalo. No offense to my girl Baby 5 though.

There is no such thing as being strong enough to survive blows here since Zoro is using a sword. One slip up from the two and their heads will be sent flying. 



marco55656 said:


> Why would you need physical power? enel fucked him up with lightning why couldnt nami



Comparing Nami's lightning with Enel's. Well I never....


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## Urouge (May 22, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Zoro rapes.





oOLawlietOo said:


> Zoro rapes them both.



he's not raping anything. nami and ussop might be the weakest Sh but there's no way that they would get stomped by preskip zoro who's only a mid tier. they didnt train for 2 years for nothing



Doma said:


> I give it to Usopp and Nami. They're a lot stronger now than people give them credit for.



I agree with this.


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## Soca (May 22, 2013)

Usopp uses sleep star
GG zolo


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## Doma (May 22, 2013)

Marik Swift said:


> I mostly agree with what Empori says. The two lack the physical capability needed to defeat Zoro. Most of their attacks he could dodge, etc, and what he won't dodge he can tank - I wouldn't put it past him to tank their collaberation attack since it was used to defeat weak opponents like Baby 5 and Buffalo. No offense to my girl Baby 5 though.
> 
> There is no such thing as being strong enough to survive blows here since Zoro is using a sword. One slip up from the two and their heads will be sent flying.
> 
> ...



Baby 5 and the fan dude weren't weak, they were actually really strong. It's just hard to tell how strong people are sometimes without some amazing feat. But Baby 5 was able to pierce Franky's shogun armor with her sword leg all the way through. Franky's shogun armor is some tough shit, it's easily stronger than steel. Pre-skip Zoro could barely cut steel, he's not coming close to cutting through Franky's armor.

Also, their collaboration attack would rape Zoro. I'm not saying Nami has shit on Raigou or some 100 million volt attack, but Zoro wouldn't tank it.

Just for comparison, here's Enel's attack that took out Zoro. Keep in mind that this attack was already overkill, the first light zap Enel did left Zoro on the ground and heavily injured.



And here's Nami's attack. Also keep in mind that while their attacks might look to be the same size, the fan dude's like three times the size of Zoro. I mean his hand is the same size as Baby 5 in that panel.



Edit: Also, I realize this post is kind of long. But feel free to ignore it, it's really just directed at anyone who thinks Nami and Ussop lack the firepower to take out Zoro.


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## Lawliet (May 22, 2013)

Urouge said:


> he's not raping anything. nami and ussop might be the weakest Sh but there's no way that they would get stomped by preskip zoro who's only a mid tier. they didnt train for 2 years for nothing
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this.



Call me when Usopp and Nami can take hits from people like Oars, or when they can beat people Like Ryuma.


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## Sanji (May 22, 2013)

The duo take it.


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## Marik Swift (May 22, 2013)

Doma said:


> Baby 5 and the fan dude weren't weak, they were actually really strong. It's just hard to tell how strong people are sometimes without some amazing feat. But Baby 5 was able to pierce Franky's shogun armor with her sword leg all the way through. Franky's shogun armor is some tough shit, it's easily stronger than steel. Pre-skip Zoro could barely cut steel, he's not coming close to cutting through Franky's armor.


I wanted to correct my post before anyone posted since I felt like calling them 'weak' was massive underestimation of the two on my part, but yea, weak isn't the right word. I mostly use them as reference because of the fact that while Usopp and Nami's attack defeated them, the two's endurance is no where close to pre-skip Zoro's. So, yea, they aren't weak, but rather I just meant to draw a point to the two's lack of resilience in comparison to Zoro, which is a major factor here.


> Also, their collaboration attack would rape Zoro. I'm not saying Nami has shit on Raigou or some 100 million volt attack, but Zoro wouldn't tank it.
> 
> Just for comparison, here's Enel's attack that took out Zoro. Keep in mind that this attack was already overkill, the first light zap Enel did left Zoro on the ground and heavily injured.
> 
> ...


While you raise a good point her,e I say Nami's attack is weaker than Enel's own not because of size, but rather the quality. Nami's lightning is basically artificial, I'm pretty sure a lightning attack of hers is several times weaker than Enel's ever will be. And this isn't baseless, since as I said, her lightning is artificial and Enel's own is full powered lightning. Heck, Enel's lightning might even be stronger than normal lightning since we have seen Devil Fruits surpass the feats of normal standards.



> Edit: Also, I realize this post is kind of long. But feel free to ignore it, it's really just directed at anyone who thinks Nami and Ussop lack the firepower to take out Zoro.



Not long in comparison to debates I've been in, so no worries.


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## tanman (May 22, 2013)

Zoro gets sniped and electrocuted.
He's very close to these two and Chopper individually, but not together.


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## TrolonoaZoro (May 22, 2013)

Doma said:


> Baby 5 and the fan dude weren't weak, they were actually really strong. It's just hard to tell how strong people are sometimes without some amazing feat. But Baby 5 was able to pierce Franky's shogun armor with her sword leg all the way through. Franky's shogun armor is some tough shit, it's easily stronger than steel. Pre-skip Zoro could barely cut steel, he's not coming close to cutting through Franky's armor.
> 
> Also, their collaboration attack would rape Zoro. I'm not saying Nami has shit on Raigou or some 100 million volt attack, but Zoro wouldn't tank it.
> 
> ...


They could only pierce Franky after a combination attack. Pre-skip Zoro being barely able to cut steel might be his Alabasta self I suppose? Because he was fully in control of the ability to cut it after that, which is not barely. He just could. 
Physical strength is not related to how much you can tank, so it's not really a good indicator. 

Thunder seems to be a technique of with high knock-ability and not lethal, so this "overkill" "heavily injured" is just you making stuff up.
Zoro fought in a mini war, fought one of the main villains, fought one of Sky guerrilla allies, went on to fight eneru and then finally got shock once again * which is a really important panel wait for it* and yet he was in better condition than any finale of a saga pre time skip. * only beaten by Fishman island and they stomped on the one* 

Now look at this . This is Zoro taking a 10 time stronger thunder attack  that is comparable to Giant Jack*Look at its size in comparison to Zoro's body*  and were the one destroying the ruins in one shot. Easily one of the strongest attack in Eneru's arsenal, and you guessed it, Zoro gets up back again within minutes. *That time it took for Luffy to defeat Eneru on a race against his advent thunder*  So the idea of these taking being some sort of big ultimate attack, is not accurate.

Anyways, it becomes a question on how much damage would thunder perform on Zoro. And if I had to guess, I would say it would be tricky to properly realize if it would knock him out and even more tricky to decide for how long he would be out. Keeping in mind that this is a stronger Zoro than skypea, with more will power but that thunder bypasses tankability and even though it doesn't damage people, it is good for knocking out people.


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## Doma (May 22, 2013)

Marik Swift said:


> I wanted to correct my post before anyone posted since I felt like calling them 'weak' was massive underestimation of the two on my part, but yea, weak isn't the right word. I mostly use them as reference because of the fact that while Usopp and Nami's attack defeated them, the two's endurance is no where close to pre-skip Zoro's. So, yea, they aren't weak, but rather I just meant to draw a point to the two's lack of resilience in comparison to Zoro, which is a major factor here.



They have good endurance too though. They tanked Franky's gaia cannon which leveled most of one of the smaller mountains. Not to mention Franky's a lot stronger than pre-skip Luffy and Zoro. Their strongest attacks should pale in comparison to his strongest attacks, especially since he specializes in firepower. That gaia cannon was most likely packing more power than Luffy's gigant rifle. Their resilience should be far ahead of Zoro's.



> While you raise a good point her,e I say Nami's attack is weaker than Enel's own not because of size, but rather the quality. Nami's lightning is basically artificial, I'm pretty sure a lightning attack of hers is several times weaker than Enel's ever will be. And this isn't baseless, since as I said, her lightning is artificial and Enel's own is full powered lightning. Heck, Enel's lightning might even be stronger than normal lightning since we have seen Devil Fruits surpass the feats of normal standards.



Nami's lightning isn't artificial though. It's artificially made, but it's real lightning. I'm just going off of size because for logias, stronger attacks=larger sized attack. It's not a coincidence that every logias strongest attack is also their largest. 

And in this type of situation, I think we should just take things at face value. Until Nami shouts out her exact voltage, we'll never know if her lightning is of the same quality as Enel's. If her attack is twice the size of Enel's attack, it probably does twice the damage too. Otherwise it'd be really lame if Oda's drawing these massive balls of lightning and they pale in comparison to something Enel can do with a wave of his hand.


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## Quuon (May 22, 2013)

I'm giving the duo the benefit of the doubt here.
They should take it with high difficulty.


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## Doma (May 22, 2013)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> They could only pierce Franky after a combination attack. Pre-skip Zoro being barely able to cut steel might be his Alabasta self I suppose? Because he was fully in control of the ability to cut it after that, which is not barely. He just could.
> Physical strength is not related to how much you can tank, so it's not really a good indicator.



If Buffalo threw Zoro like that, he still would have failed against Franky's armor. And I say he's barely able to cut steel because he still required his strongest attacks to do it. Besides, Franky's not even made out of steel. His shogun armor is stronger than steel. I guarantee he's either made out of pacifista metal or something stronger. He called his metal Vegapunk's dream metal after all.



> Thunder seems to be a technique of with high knock-ability and not lethal, so this "overkill" "heavily injured" is just you making stuff up.
> Zoro fought in a mini war, fought one of the main villains, fought one of Sky guerrilla allies, went on to fight eneru and then finally got shock once again * which is a really important panel wait for it* and yet he was in better condition than any finale of a saga pre time skip. * only beaten by Fishman island and they stomped on the one*



It's like you forgot what manga you're reading. Nothing is lethal in One Piece unless it's for plot purposes. You might as well say nukes aren't lethal because Pell survived the explosion.

And I'm not making stuff up, look at what this tiny little shock did.



Yes he got back up a few pages later, but you can't deny that that shock did some damage.



> Now look at this . This is Zoro taking a 10 time stronger thunder attack  that is comparable to Giant Jack*Look at its size in comparison to Zoro's body*  and were the one destroying the ruins in one shot. Easily one of the strongest attack in Eneru's arsenal, and you guessed it, Zoro gets up back again within minutes. *That time it took for Luffy to defeat Eneru on a race against his advent thunder*  So the idea of these taking being some sort of big ultimate attack, is not accurate.
> Anyways, it becomes a question on how much damage would thunder perform on Zoro. And if I had to guess, I would say it would be tricky to properly realize if it would knock him out and even more tricky to decide for how long he would. Keeping in mind that this is a stronger Zoro than skypea, with more will power but that thunder bypasses tankability and even though it doesn't damage people, it is good for knocking out people.



That's not Zoro tanking anything, that's him getting knocked out and not getting back up again for like ten chapters. That's like saying Ceasar Clown is really tough because he got hit by a grizzly magnum and an hour later he's running around like he's not injured.

Besides, that lightning attack isn't any larger than Nami's.


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## TrolonoaZoro (May 22, 2013)

Doma said:


> If Buffalo threw Zoro like that, he still would have failed against Franky's armor. And I say he's barely able to cut steel because he still required his strongest attacks to do it. Besides, Franky's not even made out of steel. His shogun armor is stronger than steel. I guarantee he's either made out of pacifista metal or something stronger. He called his metal Vegapunk's dream metal after all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You do realize that is based on no evidence whatsoever? That attack was based on strength rather than ability, Baby was simply the weapon. Zoro's swords are top-notch, if Bufallo's strength is the same, plus Zoro high level swords, then I could easily see the same thing happening. *I just realized how silly the thought of Zoro being spun to Cut someone is, focus on the fact that Baby5 was simply a weapon and the only thing relevant that comes from her would be how hard her metal is* He's made of wapol metal. And that's not barely, I understand what you were trying to say now, but your previous wording implies he had a difficulty time and with lackluster effort. Which he doesn't, and thus he's fully capable of cutting steel. Again, pointless to the discussion because it doesn't indicate what their ability to tank is. 

By lethal I mean doing damage that would take you near death. Even if death is scarce, you can obviously see when things are more damaging in that spectrum.  No one was worried about people dying when getting shocked,*just the first time when Sanji got shock in the merry, then every got hit by an El thor at least once* there was no damage that took anyone near death, it wasn't presented as an ability that would play with your life. *Compare and contrast to Zoro being split up by Mihawk or Getting Magma fisted* We didn't know what exactly happened to Pell, but we did see him badly hurt, for an extended period of time. It's not the same treatment as getting shock, they're not the same. (Oh and they got hit by the lightning after getting Gao Cannon, and Bufallo didn't even get K.Oed)

That tiny little shocked, almost knockout Zoro. It disabled him for that time, it didn't prove to harm him beyond that and he goes on to take much higher shocks without his life being on peril. Yes, a technique that's good for knocking people and nothing more. You can't ignore the fact that he took much stronger shocks. Damage in this case being getting roughed up, and slight burns. It just doesn't live up to other stuff.

10 chapters? We see him back up in 3. And you need to properly look at the time frame between those 3. It is giant Jack falling, and Luffy's fight with Eneru. This must have happened within minute, add to the fact that Zoro didn't have any reason to get back up as his job was already done shortly after and decided to simply stay down those . You can't go past the ten minutes limits, and all of this culminates to the saga with the less damage taken. 
Are you serious about size? Look at how big Giant Jack is.  One of stem/stalk * or w.e the proper name for that is* is as thick as the snake that Luffy thought was caved. No way Nami's lightning is bigger.


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## zorokuma (May 22, 2013)

first thing, enel's lightning is a lot stronger than nami's.  and enel took out skypea zoro, zoro got much stronger after that.


second, what is stopping nami and usopp from getting blitzed? zoro's attack speed is way to fast for them.

Im not saying he rapes,  I just dont see how he could lose.


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## Doma (May 22, 2013)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> You do realize that is based on no evidence whatsoever? That attack was based on strength rather than ability, Baby was simply the weapon. Zoro's swords are top-notch, if Bufallo's strength is the same, plus Zoro high level swords, then I could easily see the same thing happening. *I just realized how silly the thought of Zoro being spun to Cut someone is, focus on the fact that Baby5 was simply a weapon and the only thing relevant that comes from her would be how hard her metal is* He's made of wapol metal. And that's not barely, I understand what you were trying to say now, but your previous wording implies he had a difficulty time and with lackluster effort. Which he doesn't, and thus he's fully capable of cutting steel. Again, pointless to the discussion because it doesn't indicate what their ability to tank is.



It's not baseless at all. Zoro made it clear in Alabasta that cutting steel was about skill and not brute strength. You can break steel with brute strength, but you can't cut it or pierce it that way. But even if it was just brute strength, being able to throw someone hard enough to pierce thick metal harder than steel is still a magnificent feat. And I highly doubt Zoro would have been able to do it. It would be like throwing him at a Pacifista really hard, he'd just break his arms and maybe his swords too.

And none of this is even about tanking. This is about their skill as fighters. They showed they were better tanks when they walked away from Franky's gaia cannon. 



> By lethal I mean doing damage that would take you near death. Even if death is scarce, you can obviously see when things are more damaging in that spectrum.  No one was worried about people dying when getting shocked,*just the first time when Sanji got shock in the merry, then every got hit by an El thor at least once* there was no damage that took anyone near death, it wasn't presented as an ability that would play with your life. *Compare and contrast to Zoro being split up by Mihawk or Getting Magma fisted* We didn't know what exactly happened to Pell, but we did see him badly hurt, for an extended period of time. It's not the same treatment as getting shock, they're not the same. (Oh and they got hit by the lightning after getting Gao Cannon, and Bufallo didn't even get K.Oed)



Okay, I can admit that the lightning didn't have nearly the drastic effect that magma punches and nukes did. But all they need to do is win the fight, they don't have to kill him or permanently cripple him. And I would say leaving your opponent unconscious on the ground even if only for five minutes is still winning the fight.



> That tiny little shocked, almost knockout Zoro. It disabled him for that time, it didn't prove to harm him beyond that and he goes on to take much higher shocks without his life being on peril. Yes, a technique that's good for knocking people and nothing more. You can't ignore the fact that he took much stronger shocks. Damage in this case being getting roughed up, and slight burns. It just doesn't live up to other stuff.





> 10 chapters? We see him back up in 3. And you need to properly look at the time frame between those 3. It is giant Jack falling, and Luffy's fight with Eneru. This must have happened within minute, add to the fact that Zoro didn't have any reason to get back up as his job was already done shortly after and decided to simply stay down those . You can't go past the ten minutes limits, and all of this culminates to the saga with the less damage taken.
> Are you serious about size? Look at how big Giant Jack is.  One of stem/stalk * or w.e the proper name for that is* is as thick as the snake that Luffy thought was caved. No way Nami's lightning is bigger.



So what is your point here? This happens all the time in One Piece. Every character gets the shit beaten out of them but gets back up in like ten minutes. Zoro's not anything special for doing it. Ceasar Clown got knocked the fuck out by Grizzly Magnum. Now he's on Dressrosa running around like it never happened and I'm pretty sure it's still the same day too.

But even if it is some magnificent feat. How does it help him in this fight? If Nami and Usopp knock him out for ten minutes, then he loses the fight. It's not gonna continue again in ten minutes because they decide to spare his life and stick around to see if he ever gets back up.

And Nami's lightning was pretty big itself. It was the same size as Buffalo and in the panel they're getting shocked, Baby 5 is the size of his hand and she's a normal size for a person.


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## TrolonoaZoro (May 23, 2013)

Doma said:


> It's not baseless at all. Zoro made it clear in Alabasta that cutting steel was about skill and not brute strength. You can break steel with brute strength, but you can't cut it or pierce it that way. But even if it was just brute strength, being able to throw someone hard enough to pierce thick metal harder than steel is still a magnificent feat. And I highly doubt Zoro would have been able to do it. It would be like throwing him at a Pacifista really hard, he'd just break his arms and maybe his swords too.
> 
> And none of this is even about tanking. This is about their skill as fighters. They showed they were better tanks when they walked away from Franky's gaia cannon.
> 
> ...


Nami/Usopp beating two people who aren't putting a fight and have already taken heavy damage serves to prove what then? how is this relevant ? and I'm just going to agree on the Zoro thing.  

However, you can obviously pierce/cut steel if you get require amount of force. Zoro had to do it that way because he did't have the require amount of strength back then to do so.Hence Buffalo spinning fast enough to regenerate the amount of power require to pierce it. That was obviously a question of power and npt everyone can just get that level of technique.

The problem is getting a proper notion of how it would affect Zoro pre time skip if he was taking heavier shock pre EL. and this is a bloodlusted Zoro, which we certainly have a toll on their behavior. Which means the only thing that could potentially k.o him is not assured to even been used in the first place.

Point being your previously hyped of thunder of "overkill" and "heavily injured" being completely wrong, mostly. It happens with a lot of people, and then we can't call those attacks Overkill or being heavily injured. A night when by, showers and sleeping with the little bastard dragon kid. 

Not magnificent, the opposite. Thunder is not a big of a deal as you're selling it. Already told you what Zoro's ability to take bigger attacks before he reached his full power pre time skip is quite relevant.

Yes it was big.
This is Luffy inside the Snake's eyes.


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## Zorofangirl24 (May 23, 2013)

before people bring up the Water 7 Usopp giving Water 7 luffy difficulty argument, I would just like to point out that Luffy was nowhere near bloodlusted and held back like crazy. Since Zoro usually fights bloodlusted and has Swords he one shots nami and usopp


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## Shizune (May 27, 2013)

This depends a lot on how the opening of the match goes, which is a lot harder to predict without any distance given. If Nami and Usopp escape from Zoro— preferably under the guise of — then Zoro is in big trouble. With attacks that can hurt even Doflamingo's favored subordinates, they'll turn the island into a death trap for him.

It all comes down to whether or not Zoro can confront them and nip them in the bud before their antics get out of hand. Nami and Usopp may be fragile, but if left to their own devices they can do some serious damage; damage that is out of pre-skip Zoro's league.

Between Nami's invisibility, Usopp's sleeping bombs and a location that Zoro's liable to get lost in, I'm going to give this to the weakling duo more times than not.


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## punisher223 (May 27, 2013)

I don't think they have the fire power to beat him physically (kill him), but they sure as hell can beat him mentally (outsmart him) with low-moderate difficulty. 

Though if we were talking East blue Zoro two on one is overkill they each solo easily.


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## Kirin Thunderclap (May 27, 2013)

Nami and Ussop take this low diff.


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## Halcyon (May 27, 2013)

I give it to Zoro




No, but in all seriousness, I honestly believe he's too fast for the duo. That, and his physical power is on another level. But I do think it would be a high-diff fight; they're not fodder anymore.

Just my 2 cents doe.


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## Shinthia (May 27, 2013)

People really loves to say Zolo solo , Zolo rapes or Zoro wins lol.

OT: Usopp and Nami should take this. If after 2 years of training they cant win this. I will be disappointed really.


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## TrainerRed (May 27, 2013)

If a duo of any two current Strawhats can't take out a single preskip strawhat then those two years were for absolute shit.


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## Ben B (May 28, 2013)

The only way Nami/Usopp have a chance here is if they are given time for preparation (to set up traps, plan etc) otherwise, they are fucked. Keep in mind that Namis strongest attacks (thunder) take some time to actually set up ( the cloud to form) and Zoros speed even prior to the time-skip completely fodderizes Namis/Usopps, if they are randomly dropped into the battle field with little distance then Zoro will cut them before they have a chance to do anything serious. If they are given time to prepare then Ill give it to the duo more times than not.


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## Coruscation (May 28, 2013)

> If a duo of any two current Strawhats can't take out a single preskip strawhat then those two years were for absolute shit.



This right here.

Some people in this thread are out of their minds. The Straw Hats have been in the NW for 2 days and already effectively picked a fight with Doflamingo and two Emperors. If Nami and Usopp were so useless they could not even beat pre-skip Zoro two against one they might as well quit the crew this instant. Why are they so incredibly underrated by some? M. Trio went from being easily overwhelmed by a lone Pacifista to utterly destroying one in a single mid-low level attack. We have no reason to think Nami and Usopp's improvement was one bit relatively lesser. They have shown a fraction of what they can do and are already finishing off Doflamingo crewmembers and stomping FI Princes level people. Yet someone concludes "Zoro rapes"? That's absolutely insane.


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## Ben B (May 28, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> This right here.
> 
> Some people in this thread are out of their minds. The Straw Hats have been in the NW for 2 days and already effectively picked a fight with Doflamingo and two Emperors. If Nami and Usopp were so useless they could not even beat pre-skip Zoro two against one they might as well quit the crew this instant. Why are they so incredibly underrated by some? M. Trio went from being easily overwhelmed by a lone Pacifista to utterly destroying one in a single mid-low level attack. We have no reason to think Nami and Usopp's improvement was one bit relatively lesser. They have shown a fraction of what they can do and are already finishing off Doflamingo crewmembers and stomping FI Princes level people. Yet someone concludes "Zoro rapes"? That's absolutely insane.



Not really, that is an expectation and not an argument, you guys are underestimating the huge combat/power difference between the M3 and the rest but especially the two weakest (Usopp and Nami) which has pretty much always been there. All Nami did over the past two years is get a more powerful and versatile weapon, the same is true for Usopp (who did get some trivial survival training as well), Id hardly call that "training", at least as compared to the training of the M3 in the TS.

Note that  the M3 were tanking beatings from Oars and crap before the TS whereas Nami and Usopp have above average for a normal human physical ability at best, they have a significant offensive because of their weapons but their defence is virtually nonexistent which is why they were effortlessly one shoted by that Zombie Samurai guy before even realizing it, in close quarters, the situation will be exactly the same with Zoro, their new weapons will make no difference in CQC. Now both Usopp and Nami are significantly more intelligent than Zoro and do have the fire-power to take out Zoro so with preparation, they should be able to take him but there is no way they are going to stand a chance in a random fight that starts out with little distance against any of the M3 even prior to the TS.


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## Coruscation (May 28, 2013)

> All Nami did over the past two years is get a more powerful and versatile weapon, the same is true for Usopp (who did get some trivial survival training as well), Id hardly call that "training"



This is insanity. Pure insanity. What manga are you reading where almost every single Straw Hat wasn't put in an amazing situations to grow and set themselves with a steel resolve to grow stronger over two whole years for Luffy's sake, compared to the mere few months their part 1 travels took them and that already saw massive growth? Where Nami and Usopp are not core members of the crew of the man soon to be Pirate King and already picking fights with some of the greatest in the world?



> Note that the M3 were tanking beatings from Oars and crap before the TS



Who cares? It's been *two whole years*. Remember how much Usopp and Nami grew just in a few months in part 1? Over the TS Sanji went from where he would have been nearly stomped by a Pacifista to raping one with a single low-mid attack. There is no basis on which to think the improvement of members who start out lower (hence grow faster) is the slightest bit less. Whatever Nami and Usopp could do before the timeskip they can do tenfold now.



> hey were effortlessly one shoted by that Zombie Samurai guy before even realizing it, in close quarters, the situation will be exactly the same with Zoro



More insanity. That is what would happen with someone like current Zoro. Don't really like to bring this up but remember how Usopp actually reacted to Luffy in Water Seven? That was a _pre_-timeskip Usopp. You seriously think that an Usopp or Nami many orders of magnitude more powerful and experienced is going to be lol-oneshotted by a pre-timeskip Zoro?


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## Ben B (May 28, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> This is insanity. Pure insanity. What manga are you reading where almost every single Straw Hat wasn't put in an amazing situations to grow and set themselves with a steel resolve to grow stronger over two whole years for Luffy's sake, compared to the mere few months their part 1 travels took them and that already saw massive growth? Where Nami and Usopp are not core members of the crew of the man soon to be Pirate King and already picking fights with some of the greatest in the world?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is rhetoric, I have yet to see any new feats on Usopp/Namis side that compares to the feats of the M3 near the end of part 1. Captain Buggy and Shanks both started out in Rogers crew as well, just because Nami/Usopp are straw hats doesn't mean they will ever be even remotely close to the M3. You can't apply the same standards and expectations of the M3 to the rest of the crew much less the two weakest fighters who are basically mere support. 

Note I am not even arguing that prior TS Zoro "will rape" as if its impossible for post TS Nami/Usopp to beat him, just that it depends on the circumstances of the battle (most importantly initial distance of battle and preparation). In close quarters combat, Zoros speed is simply too much for Nami/Usopp to do anything against.


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## Coruscation (May 28, 2013)

How in the world do you have the impression I'm talking about Nami and Usopp being "close to the M3"? This is _post_-timeskip them versus _pre_-timeskip Zoro as you are well aware. Saying that they will never be close to the M3 at the same time is completely irrelevant here.

You have no evidence whatsoever that they would be stomped before they could even move in close combat. Not one bit of it.


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## Ben B (May 28, 2013)

You missed my point entirely: that you can't have the same expectations of growth for all the straw-hats simply because they are straw-hats. The fact is that Nami, for example, did nothing but learn more about weather and get a new weapon in the TS so just because Zoro (who trained under Mihawk) improved significantly, doesn't mean Nami has too. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Namis physical speed, endurance etc improved significantly post-TS nor is it a reasonable assumption. In close quarters, Namis new weapon makes little to no difference against someone like Zoro whose speed feats even prior to the TS was insane. Its very simple logical speculation, no rhetoric or unwarranted expectations.


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## Coruscation (May 28, 2013)

That's exactly what I can. There are no weak links in the Pirate King's core crew combatants. Not one of the Straw Hats trained for these two years without making absolutely gigantic improvements. Not one of them will not be forced to pull every bit of their weight in the battles lying ahead against the world's toughest foes. You're severely misguided if you believe otherwise but if you think with full sincerity that Nami didn't improve significantly, I doubt there's anything I can say to make you actually realize that.


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## TrolonoaZoro (May 28, 2013)

The way I see it now, this is a match that's depended on Combat ability rather than innate difference in strength because they should be around the same level. 
Based on what Corus said about their necessity to face Pre Skip Monster trio level fighters in the new world, mostly, that convinced me. Makes sense I think.

I think it should be something akin to the lower cp9 members  vs the mugiwaras. *Nami vs Kalifa, especially* A question of match up.


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## Marik Swift (May 28, 2013)

Coru, while I usually support your posts, your argument, as well as most of the others who oppose, seem to base their opinion of the simple belief that a two year time skip is *guaranteed* to make Nami and Usopp stronger than any of the pre-timeskip SHs. These are nothing but speculations without any real feats, and can be easily countered with the fact that they haven't shown feats that imply they can do anything the M3 did pre skip. Do you think Nami or Usopp can last a few seconds with Mihawk, or perhaps do you think that Nami or Usopp can tank attacks from the likes or Oars?

Nami and Usopp's training wasn't even so much to get stronger as to more so improve their knowledge and versatility. As mentioned they are basically support type fighters.​


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## Kikuchiyo (May 28, 2013)

_The team should take this; Ussop's plant spam will be too much, combine Ussop's plants with Nami's illusion? That will really mess Zoro up. I don't think they can really kill Zoro but he can be knocked out, I see Ussop using his wolf the same way hm used his iron wall and busted Zoro's head lol. Plus the timeskip team knows all about Zoro at that time, Zoro knows nothing about them, I mean an injured Ussop himself was able to put up a fight against an in character Luffy, and even took a few punches form him (Well, one, the second took him out lol)_


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## Coruscation (May 28, 2013)

Actually, Chopper tanked an attack from Oars, pre-timeskip. Are you about to tell me pre-timeskip Chopper is stronger than current Usopp and Nami? Why do people keep using these unbelievably terrible arguments? Usopp and Nami are _not physical fighters_ at all so how is it even remotely fair to say that if they can't do things that physical fighters can do, they are weaker than them? That makes as much sense as saying that Sanji is weaker than Usopp because he can not shoot someone from the Tower of Justice. Or how about this: pre-timeskip Nami is stronger than Zoro because she brought Oars to his knees single-handedly with a single attack in Thriller Bark. Makes plenty of sense, right? See what inane and dishonest comparisons can accomplish?



> base their opinion of the simple belief that a two year time skip is guaranteed to make Nami and Usopp stronger than any of the pre-timeskip SHs



Together? Yes. It would be absurd if it didn't.



> Nami and Usopp's training wasn't even so much to get stronger as to more so improve their knowledge and versatility.



This is utter bollocks. Do you even remember what Usopp's training was? Where he was? I can remind you -- an entire island chock full of extremely hostile and dangerous flora and fauna. For two whole years he stayed on that island, fought it and overcame it, and for what purpose? To become stronger for Luffy.

Where in the world is this insane mentality that Nami and Usopp did not properly train even coming from? Let me repeat it again: every single Straw Hat will have to bear their weight in the New World. On their own or together. There are no weak links. This is the soon to be Pirate King's crew. Every single one of them were determined to become stronger and every one of them did, massively so.


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## TrolonoaZoro (May 28, 2013)

Marik Swift said:


> Coru, while I usually support your posts, your argument, as well as most of the others who oppose, seem to base their opinion of the simple belief that a two year time skip is *guaranteed* to make Nami and Usopp stronger than any of the pre-timeskip SHs. These are nothing but speculations without any real feats, and can be easily countered with the fact that they haven't shown feats that imply they can do anything the M3 did pre skip. Do you think Nami or Usopp can last a few seconds with Mihawk, or perhaps do you think that Nami or Usopp can tank attacks from the likes or Oars?
> 
> Nami and Usopp's training wasn't even so much to get stronger as to more so improve their knowledge and versatility. As mentioned they are basically support type fighters.​


Now I'm under the opinion that they will most likely fight M3 level opponents, that while they may not have the physical stats to fight people around their level. *essentially like every of their fights pre time skip* Their quick thinking and not so easily to dismiss ability should give them a fighting chance. I'm not so quick to call a winner because it is rather probable that Pre M3 should be more formidable than the majority. 
All they need is their wits, reaction and determination. *A la chu vs Usopp, Nami vs Kalifa/Ms Double finger*


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## Marik Swift (May 28, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Actually, Chopper tanked an attack from Oars, pre-timeskip. Are you about to tell me pre-timeskip Chopper is stronger than current Usopp and Nami? Why do people keep using these unbelievably terrible arguments? Usopp and Nami are _not physical fighters_ at all so how is it even remotely fair to say that if they can't do things that physical fighters can do, they are weaker than them? That makes as much sense as saying that Sanji is weaker than Usopp because he can not shoot someone from the Tower of Justice. Or how about this: pre-timeskip Nami is stronger than Zoro because she brought Oars to his knees single-handedly with a single attack in Thriller Bark. Makes plenty of sense, right? See what inane and dishonest comparisons can accomplish?


When has this been a issue. I don't think anyone who has posted in this thread is actually stupid enough to think that Usopp or Nami can't defeat Zoro or any of the M3 without some pre-planning - it is a well known fact that wit can triumph over any power. But, most of you seem to be off the impression that Usopp and Nami can win this without doing some form of preparation beforehand. Neither could barely keep up with him - Nami especially - and even if they do, they surely won't be surviving any of his strikes - all it take sis one slip up.​




> This is utter bollocks. Do you even remember what Usopp's training was? Where he was? I can remind you -- an entire island chock full of extremely hostile and dangerous flora and fauna. For two whole years he stayed on that island, fought it and overcame it, and for what purpose? To become stronger for Luffy.
> 
> Where in the world is this insane mentality that Nami and Usopp did not properly train even coming from? Let me repeat it again: every single Straw Hat will have to bear their weight in the New World. On their own or together. There are no weak links. This is the soon to be Pirate King's crew. Every single one of them were determined to become stronger and every one of them did, massively so.


Overcoming dangerous flora and fauna is a test of survival. He was trying to improve his versatility so that he can be more useful in more fields. That said, it was simply him trying to become more useful in different fields, not just combat. Whereas, the M3 trained with the intention of improving their skills for the sole purpose of combat.

And no weak links? Lol, say that the Punk Hazard Arc where we have Zoro even have to save a middle trio like Robin from a low tier opponent like Monet. Yes, it is because Robin didn't have Haki which is why she likely couldn't beat her, but that argument doesn't hold up since her not having Haki is still a matter of how not reaching the required willpower and strength to attain it.​


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## Kirin Thunderclap (May 28, 2013)

Marik Swift said:


> Coru, while I usually support your posts, your argument, as well as most of the others who oppose, seem to base their opinion of the simple belief that a two year time skip is *guaranteed* to make Nami and Usopp stronger than any of the pre-timeskip SHs. These are nothing but speculations without any real feats, and can be easily countered with the fact that they haven't shown feats that imply they can do anything the M3 did pre skip. Do you think Nami or Usopp can last a few seconds with Mihawk, or perhaps do you think that Nami or Usopp can tank attacks from the likes or Oars?
> 
> Nami and Usopp's training wasn't even so much to get stronger as to more so improve their knowledge and versatility. As mentioned they are basically support type fighters.​



So Doflamingo's crew members could be beaten by pre-skip Zoro?

Right......

Ussop and Nami don't need prep to take out a pre-skip Zoro. 

Pre-Skip Ussop by himself with prep took on Luffy and got beat low-mid diff.

Zoro would get absolutely mauled without prep and would get mauled+incinerated with prep.

I don't know why we're arguing that any of the pre-skip SHs can beat Post Skip SHs.


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## Bitty (May 28, 2013)

to be fair Usopp & Nami took down a Buffalo & Baby 5 running away with their backs turned after getting their ass beat by Franky & taking a general cannon.


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## Kirin Thunderclap (May 28, 2013)

Still let's say Baby 5+Buffalo were on the level of a Pacifista. Do you honestly think that if they had been damaged by Franky and were running away that pre-skip Zoro could finish the job? The same Zoro that couldn't finish off a Pacifista while bombarding it with his strongest attacks, along with other members of the M3? 

Pre-Skip SH means nothing to Post-Skip SH.


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## Shiny (May 28, 2013)

zoro wins


pre-skip nami and usopp were too fucking weak,2years wouldn't put them on pre-skip monster 3 level


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## Soca (May 28, 2013)

This is where this section gets weird for me, how do people think the shs can take on a yonkou crew and yet the weakest of them can't defeat a pre-skip zoro? Like what level guys are they gonna be fighting from this point, pre-skip mid trio players or what?


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## Rikudou No Sennin (May 28, 2013)

The duo take this comfortably.


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## Halcyon (May 29, 2013)

Kirin Thunderclap said:


> So Doflamingo's crew members could be beaten by pre-skip Zoro?
> 
> Right......
> 
> ...






Haruhifan6969 said:


> *before people bring up the Water 7 Usopp giving Water 7 luffy difficulty argument, I would just like to point out that Luffy was nowhere near bloodlusted and held back like crazy*. Since Zoro usually fights bloodlusted and has Swords he one shots nami and usopp



I wouldn't normally side with him, but he has a point. It definitely was no where near mid-diff. Not to mention that was Water 7 Luffy, before he even showed Gears, which broadened the gap considerably more. Without prep he would have been demolished.


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## Ben B (May 29, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> That's exactly what I can. There are no weak links in the Pirate King's core crew combatants. Not one of the Straw Hats trained for these two years without making absolutely gigantic improvements. Not one of them will not be forced to pull every bit of their weight in the battles lying ahead against the world's toughest foes. You're severely misguided if you believe otherwise but if you think with full sincerity that Nami didn't improve significantly, I doubt there's anything I can say to make you actually realize that.



But this is just your expectation based on the idea that a crews overall strength necessarily reflects that of every single one of its members which is obviously not true. Any post TS strawhat could solo Buggy and yet he started out in Rogers crew with Shanks. Again, there is no evidence in the manga whatsoever that Namis physical stats have significantly improved, Usopps probably has but he has yet to show any speed or endurance feats that even remotely compares to that of the M3 near the end of part 1.

Nami and Usopp will get blitzed in CQC against near end of part 1 Zoro and until they demonstrate serious CQC feats involving fighting near end of part 1 M3 calibre opponents, you don't have an evidence based argument, just an expectation.


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## PortgasDStarrk (May 29, 2013)

Tbh , they should destroy him together without any problems. It would be really disappoiting if they couldn't defeat a pre-Ts monster trio member.  Actually ,each of them should give pre Ts -Zoro a good fight ,anything else would make the time skip look like a joke.

And after Luffy's pathetic performance(sadly)  on PH and the other Supernovaes being able to survive in the NW with their fodder crews (excluding Kidd/Law ) , i started to doubt the time -skip anyway.


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## Marik Swift (May 29, 2013)

Marcelle.B said:


> This is where this section gets weird for me, how do people think the shs can take on a yonkou crew and yet the weakest of them can't defeat a pre-skip zoro? Like what level guys are they gonna be fighting from this point, pre-skip mid trio players or what?



Hmm, didn't know that all Yonkou crew members were apparently all top tier opponents now. Good to know. Look at Whitebeard crew for reference; besides the Commanders, all the members are fodder that any of the M3 could have solo'd if they all came at once. 

Of course though, Nami and Usopp will be fighting actually 'noteworthy' members. But really, "equal opponents" to Nami and Usopp have always been weak opponents to any of the M3- Nami especially since I frankly believe that, despite feats disagreeing, Usopp is at least M3 level by now. Look back at W7, since this arc is being referenced a lot here, the two's opponents were almost *four times* weaker than the opponents the M3 faced - and don't use that doriki is only a measure of physical power stuff, cause it was proven that Sanji could have easily defeat Kalifa.

Nothing is going to change now, as the two will certainly face opponents much more weaker than the M3 faces. In fact, it is expectant for this gap to further increase since there is a tendency for Yonkous and others top tiers to be much stronger than their underlings.

Again, I don't like using Usopp here (although I don't intend to insult Nami just the same) but until he, and Nami just the same, shows the feats, stop with your speculations.​


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## Soca (May 29, 2013)

Nah I'm pretty sure they're capable of more than whatever you just said

again

usopp solos


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## Shizune (May 29, 2013)

Marik Swift said:


> But really, "equal opponents" to Nami and Usopp have always been weak opponents to any of the M3- Nami especially since I frankly believe that, despite feats disagreeing, Usopp is at least M3 level by now.​


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## Marik Swift (May 29, 2013)

Just laughed at most of the posters here.


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## Thebest1 (May 30, 2013)

Marik Swift said:


> Just laughed at most of the posters here.


He probably thought you meant post skip M3.


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## Kaneda30 (May 30, 2013)

If it was just current Nami against pre skip Zoro then I could understand giving it to Zoro. But post skip Nami and Usopp? The duo clearly takes this, mid diff at most.


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## blueframe01 (May 30, 2013)

I don't think its absurd to think that either one of them could solo Zoro. Together they slaughter him.


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## Luis209 (May 30, 2013)

Nami beats him alone. With Ussop's help it's overkill.


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## Jungle (May 30, 2013)

RedDogAkainu said:


> If a duo of any two current Strawhats can't take out a single preskip strawhat then those two years were for absolute shit.



I agree.

Either way, if you say that preskip Zoro wins with "easy" difficult, than you are out of your mind.


Halcyon 5 said:


> I wouldn't normally side with him, but he has a point. It definitely was no where near mid-diff. Not to mention that was Water 7 Luffy, before he even showed Gears, which broadened the gap considerably more. Without prep he would have been demolished.



Haruhifan6969 is a non factor in this argument, just look up his post.

Agree with him or not, he's just a troll or a really bad poster.


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## Ben B (May 30, 2013)

Once again I think it depends entirely on the circumstances of the battle; if its a random fight with no preparation on Nami/Usopps side that starts out in CQC distance, there is no reason to think that Nami/Usopp wouldn't be blitzed (neither have shown speed feats even remotely comparable to M3 at end of part 1). If it starts out at a distance in a random fight, I think theyd take it high difficulty, with preparation it would be easy-med difficulty for Nami/Usopp.


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## Genma1998 (May 30, 2013)

Nami and Usopp definitely DID improve a lot. Although they're a lot stronger than before, I still think Zoro's too much for them. Speed-, and powerwise that is. Zoro was an extremely capable capable close and long range fighter by the time of skypeia. Zoro take this mid- high-diff imo.


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## DavyChan (Jul 27, 2013)

Nami's lightning isn't artificial though. It's artificially made, but it's real lightning. I'm just going off of size because for logias, stronger attacks=larger sized attack. It's not a coincidence that every logias strongest attack is also their largest. 

And in this type of situation, I think we should just take things at face value. Until Nami shouts out her exact voltage, we'll never know if her lightning is of the same quality as Enel's. If her attack is twice the size of Enel's attack, it probably does twice the damage too. Otherwise it'd be really lame if Oda's drawing these massive balls of lightning and they pale in comparison to something Enel can do with a wave of his hand.[/QUOTE]

Thank You!! i was thinking the same thing when i read that comment. lol.


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