# How strong was Sakumo Hatake???



## Captain Dupe (Sep 20, 2012)

Based on all knowledge we have from the manga and anime... How strong was he?


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## GoDMasteR (Sep 20, 2012)

equal or almost above the Sannin.


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## Punished Pathos (Sep 20, 2012)

So strong, that the only way he could die is by his own hands...

I'd say Sakumo was above Kakashi's prime.


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## Captain Dupe (Sep 20, 2012)

GoDMasteR said:


> equal or almost above the Sannin.



equal or above them as a whole meaning he could take on the team at once and win like this:
Sakumo >>Jiraiya, Orochimaru & Tsunade

or individually?

Sakumo> Jiraiya
Sakumo> Orochimaru
Sakumo> Tsunade


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## Chibason (Sep 20, 2012)

He was stronger than the Sannin...probably individually rather than as a whole


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## GoDMasteR (Sep 20, 2012)

Eagle125 said:


> equal or above them as a whole meaning he could take on the team at once and win like this:
> Sakumo >>Jiraiya, Orochimaru & Tsunade
> 
> or individually?
> ...



I mean individually of course...


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## Black☆Star (Sep 20, 2012)

Stronger than Itachi


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 20, 2012)

GoDMasteR said:


> equal or almost above the Sannin.





Chibason said:


> He was stronger than the Sannin...probably individually rather than as a whole



Actually Sakumo's *reputation* was even greater then the Sannin. 

But reputation means nothing about an individual skill. See example below



By reputation in the "Bingo Book" Orochimaru > Sasuke > Kabuto. Yet We know that Kabuto surpassed Orochimaru by far

The same example applies to Itachi/Kisame/Jiraya. Jiraya's reputation as a Sannin > 7 SotM or Uchiha Massacre, according to Kisame. Yet we know Itachi could handle Jiraya (or if you're pro-Jiraya at least draw with him)




Sakumo's *reputation* just means he completed a lot of mission for the Village and is known.
At best I'd put him at Elite Jonin or Low Kage. Reputation is overrated as evident by above examples.
Not to mention is Sakumo was truly that powerfull, Kabuto would have at least tried to revive him or made a comment (like Jiraya & Shisui)


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## Bart (Sep 20, 2012)

Hitokugutsu,

*I believe in Kabuchimaru!*

But Kabuto needed Orochimaru to surpass Orochimaru, if that makes any sense.


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## crisler (Sep 20, 2012)

weaker than the sannin in their prime.

sakumo had his reputation when the saninn were around together, which means they were so much weaker than current sannin, as the three couldn't even defeat one hanzou.

had sakumo lived, we don't know how strong he'd have become, but he died. when he died he was probably somewhere close part1 kakashi.


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## Reddan (Sep 20, 2012)

crisler said:


> weaker than the sannin in their prime.
> 
> sakumo had his reputation when the saninn were around together, which means they were so much weaker than current sannin, as the three couldn't even defeat one hanzou.
> 
> had sakumo lived, we don't know how strong he'd have become, but he died. when he died he was probably somewhere close part1 kakashi.



I agree 100%. Give Kakashi is about 24 years younger than the Sannin and that seems to be the age a lot of men in Naruto have kids, would guess Sakumo was the same age as the Sannin.

He was better than them at that age, but weaker than they were in their 50s. Though I think it's reasonable to assume had he lived, he would have been stronger than Orochimaru or Jiraiya.


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## Coldhands (Sep 20, 2012)

He only has part 1 hype which means nothing. Until proven otherwise he isn't as anywhere near as strong as prime Sannin.


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## shintebukuro (Sep 20, 2012)

His strength level was directly stated; he was far stronger than any of the Sannin _at the time of his death_. They were about 32 when he died. 

So, Hatake Sakumo >> 32 year-old Sannin. 



			
				hitokugutsu said:
			
		

> Actually Sakumo's reputation was even greater then the Sannin.
> 
> Sakumo's reputation just means he completed a lot of mission for the Village and is known.
> At best I'd put him at Elite Jonin or Low Kage. Reputation is overrated as evident by above examples.
> Not to mention is Sakumo was truly that powerfull, Kabuto would have at least tried to revive him or made a comment (like Jiraya & Shisui)



*That was a mistranslation*. "Reputation" was never talked about. Minato said that Sakumo was so strong that the Sannin paled in comparison.



			
				JuubiSage said:
			
		

> He only has part 1 hype which means nothing. Until proven otherwise he isn't as anywhere near as strong as prime Sannin.



That's silly. We should never dismiss anything in the manga unless we have _damn_ good reason to do so. Hiruzen's title of "strongest Hokage" is something we doubt because the author has casted doubt on it himself.

There's no reason, whatsoever, to doubt what was stated about Sakumo. We know for a fact that he was on a tier beyond the 32 year old Sannin.


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## Anju Ratti (Sep 20, 2012)

I think he's equal as a Prime sanin.


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## BoomerAang (Sep 20, 2012)

Sakumo was explicitly stated to have a reputation that rivaled the Sannin in the manga. That would imply that his strength was on par to them.


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## Black☆Star (Sep 20, 2012)

BoomerAang said:


> Sakumo was explicitly stated to be stronger than the Sannin in the manga.



No it wasn't .


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## Quab (Sep 20, 2012)

Sakumo is probably equal to the Sannin's individually, as stated by Minato [1].


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 20, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> His strength level was directly stated; he was far stronger than any of the Sannin _at the time of his death_. They were about 32 when he died.
> 
> So, Hatake Sakumo >> 32 year-old Sannin.
> 
> ...



Eh which translations are out there then? I've read multiple and they all talk about *reputation* or *respect* on equal level of the Sannin



Can a translator (TakL?) give his opinion on this? 

Cuz it matters a big deal if they are just talking about repuatation/respect on level of the Sannin or strength/skills?


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 20, 2012)

Plot Relevance=Power, which means Kishi has no reason to make him stronger than the Sannin or people like Itachi or Minato, I place him in that ambiguous tier with Prime Hanzo, Hiruzen, Tobirama, very powerful respected legends but below the like of Sannin Itachi, Nagato ect.

Kakashi is probably as strong or stronger than him seeing as how he has all of Sakumo's ability + the MS fully mastered.


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## Turrin (Sep 20, 2012)

I'd place Prime: Sakamo, Hanzo, and Hiruzen in the same category. All three of them have been indicated in some way to be superior to the Sannin and have extraordinary hype. However they so far lack the necessary hax/raw power, feats, and accomplishments to place them among the absolute strongest in the manga.

So if I were to place them on a "level" in comparison to other characters i'd place them around the level of KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke at their absolute best, which is alongside characters like (Killer B, Danzo, & Edo Itachi), and above the "level" of SM Naruto & MS Sasuke, which is alongside characters like (The Sannin, Onoki, and Pre-Death Itachi). But inferior to the "level" of BM Naruto & Perfect Susano'o? Sasuke, which is alongside characters like (Edo Nagato, & some yet unspecified benchmarks for this particular level)


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## Malmortius (Sep 20, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> Plot Relevance=Power, which means Kishi has no reason to make him stronger than the Sannin or people like Itachi or Minato, I place him in that ambiguous tier with Prime Hanzo, Hiruzen, Tobirama, very powerful respected legends but below the like of Sannin Itachi, Nagato ect.
> 
> Kakashi is probably as strong or stronger than him seeing as how he has all of Sakumo's ability + the MS fully mastered.



Stop with this plot shit. It adds nothing to the theory or discussion to go outside of it and pull crap like plot relevance.


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## sakurateff (Sep 20, 2012)

Was the father Sakumo Hatake Kakashi.
He was responsible for the death of Sasori's parents, and the object of the hatred of Chiyo.

His son looks like him since seeing him, the old Chiyo mistook him knowing that Sakumo Sakumo was dead.

According to the Fourth Hokage, was once so respected as the legendary Sannin, before falling from grace: on a mission, he chose to save his comrades rather than complete his goal, which generated significant losses to Konoha.
Back in the village, was even criticized by their colleagues who preferred to save.
Disgraced, performed seppuku after a deep depression and the decline of his skills, which caused his son initially strictly follow the ninja code to avoid repeating the mistake of his father, who eventually would agree, thanks to Obito Uchiha.

Sakumo left his sword at Kakashi, who glowed white when applied chakra. The sword was broken in the fight against the Iwagakure ninja.
Sakumo was a very kind and loyal.

Despite his tremendous fame and his great power as a ninja, was a very humble man.

He had a deep devotion to his country and a greater commitment to its allies and their loved ones to the point that would put their welfare first. 

His commitment was so great that he would sacrifice the performance of a mission to save his teammates, which led to him being a public figure of hate and ridicule.


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## Turrin (Sep 20, 2012)

Malmortius said:


> Stop with this plot shit. It adds nothing to the theory or discussion to go outside of it and pull crap like plot relevance.



Well Plot does dictate the quality of a characters depiction and the more quality depiction a characters receives ultimately will add to a characters general strength level dictated by the story. Furthermore it will increase that characters fan-base, which gives the author more incentive to make that character possess more powerful abilities as well as perform well in various situations.

So Plot relevance is a major factor, however I agree it's not deciding factor. Sakura portrayal and overall strength proves as much.


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## Jay. (Sep 20, 2012)

Hashirama level


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## SpeedBlitz (Sep 20, 2012)

He is at least around Edo Nagato level. 

Just one of the dude's sperms turned into fuckin' Kakashi.


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## shintebukuro (Sep 20, 2012)

Hitokugutsu said:
			
		

> Eh which translations are out there then? I've read multiple and they all talk about reputation or respect on equal level of the Sannin



Viz trans:

"Minato: Kakashi's father is Sakumo, the genius ninja feared as The White Fang of Konoha. In his time, the "Three Great Shinobi" of Konoha legend paled beside him."


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 20, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Well Plot does dictate the quality of a characters depiction and the more quality depiction a characters receives ultimately will add to a characters general strength level dictated by the story. Furthermore it will increase that characters fan-base, which gives the author more incentive to make that character possess more powerful abilities as well as perform well in various situations.
> 
> So Plot relevance is a major factor, however I agree it's not deciding factor. *Sakura portrayal and overall strength proves as much.*




Much like with everything in life there are always exceptions to the rules , but difference between Sakura and Sakumo is that Sakura isn't a finished product and from a story telling perspective hasn't had a need to become strong 

Against Sasori we saw her get much stronger than she had in the past

When she needed to find Sasuke she was able to take out Kiba, Sai, Lee all at once a feat even Kakashi marveled at

If Naruto and Sasuke are fucked up after their fight she'll show some medical jutsu that surpasses Tsunade to be able to be effective in said situation.




Malmortius said:


> Stop with this plot shit. It adds nothing to the theory or discussion to go outside of it and pull crap like plot relevance.



Plot is the main factor for why someone is as strong as they are , Benchmarks, Arc Villains, Main Characters will always have a better showing than side characters who add nothing to the story, it's just how it is.


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Sep 20, 2012)

Hanzo level


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## bsteves33 (Sep 20, 2012)

He's probably about on par with kakashi/gai, so I'd say mid kage level.


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## HoriMaori (Sep 20, 2012)

Kakashi Prime > Sakumo


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## G Felon (Sep 20, 2012)

Stronger than the sannin individually this needs to be explained though


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## NO (Sep 21, 2012)

Since the previous generations are extremely strong, I would wager my house on Sakumo being as strong as Hiruzen.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Sep 21, 2012)

Stronger than the Sannin.


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## Seiji (Sep 21, 2012)

Prime Hiruzen level or Hanzo level.


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## Hokage (Sep 21, 2012)

He was considered as a fantastic shinobi to a generation of people who remembered the likes of hashirama, madara and sarutobi in their prime. The old generation kicked ass. A 70 yr old geezer could go toe to toe was able to go toe to toe against the best sannin and feck him for good in the process.


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## iJutsu (Sep 21, 2012)

Hokage level

Sarutobi Sasuke level

How about Izuna level?


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 21, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Viz trans:
> 
> "Minato: Kakashi's father is Sakumo, the genius ninja feared as The White Fang of Konoha. In his time, the "Three Great Shinobi" of Konoha legend paled beside him."



Ah thanx

But this statement still doesnt mean Sakumo > a Sannin in strength/skill

It implies 2 things:
- _"In his time...."_ suggest, oviously, that when Sakumo was alive 
- _the "Three Great Shinobi" of Konoha *legend*...._ They are talking about the "legend" of the Sannin, which is another way of saying reputation 

The Sannin were around their 30's when Sakumo was alive, and not near their prime, since Tsunade handn't even developed her haxx medical ninjutsu and Oro didnt have ET etc.



So Sakumo wasnt being compared to Sannin Prime (just like Hanzo, who wasnt being compared to Sannin Prime either)

Also Viz translation also talks about the *legend* of the Sannin. Which is another way of referring to reputation

If Sakumo was truly that powerful, Kabuto would have at least tried to revive, or commented on him (like Shisui & Jiraya)
I'd give Sakumo Low Kage or Elite Jonin at best


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## tomatoxcherrylover (Sep 21, 2012)

Perhaps Sannin level or above Kakashi's?


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## BoomerAang (Sep 21, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Ah thanx
> 
> But this statement still doesnt mean Sakumo > a Sannin in strength/skill
> 
> ...




That's absolute crap. Kabuto could have revived many kage level ninja such as Hiruzen or any of the other former kages, but Kishimoto probably didn't have the time to draw them. The fact that he revived Asuma and not his father, the third hokage, is evidence that not all of the strongest ninjas were revived for the war.

I'd put him on Hanzo's level.


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## Mr.Blonde (Sep 21, 2012)

BoomerAang said:


> That's absolute crap. Kabuto could have revived many kage level ninja such as Hiruzen or any of the other former kages, but Kishimoto probably didn't have the time to draw them. The fact that he revived Asuma and not his father, the third hokage, is evidence that not all of the strongest ninjas were revived for the war.
> 
> I'd put him on Hanzo's level.


Weren't you paying attention? Hiruzen, Hashirama, Tobirama and Minato couldn't be revived because their souls are with the Death God, and not in the 'pure world' were all Narutoverse souls go after death.


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## Chuck (Sep 21, 2012)

Probably as strong as a non-MS Kakashi.

While Sakumo's reputation can't be directly used to indicate overall strength it can still hint that he was exceptional.


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## BoomerAang (Sep 21, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> Weren't you paying attention? Hiruzen, Hashirama, Tobirama and Minato couldn't be revived because their souls are with the Death God, and not in the 'pure world' were all Narutoverse souls go after death.



Bad example on my part. What about the rest of the kages? First, second and third Kazekage, etc. Surely, they'd be stonger than Asuma and Dan.


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## Dolohov27 (Sep 21, 2012)

Probably around Minato level.


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## General Mael Radec (Sep 21, 2012)

He was this strong *extends arm* can you see it?


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## GoDMasteR (Sep 21, 2012)

mmh, I'm not takl but I can tell my version...

That trans from Viz might be not so accurate, literaly speaking... 

It says

*"Kakashi is the son of the "White fang of Leaf", who was feared as a talented ninja. Well, even the reputation of "Three Legendary ninja" was overshadowed in front of his father."*

to me Minato seems he's not speaking about their force, he might referring about their ninja attitude. it's just my opnion btw..


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## Mr Hayk (Sep 21, 2012)

Nagato level, according to legends.


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## ueharakk (Sep 21, 2012)

IIRC, his name was as well known than the sannin, not necessarily his battlestrength.  I have a hard time believing that someone who was stronger than SM Jiraiya or hyped orochimaru wouldn't have been chosen to be hokage before Minato's time (he did commit suicide before Minato became hokage).  This doesn't mean I'm not open to the suggestion that he is stronger than any of the individual sannin, but until more info is given on him, I would say he is at most their equal, maybe he is inferior if compared to their prime selves.


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## Federer (Sep 21, 2012)

Most likely weaker than the prime Sannin.


He's a Hatake, no connection to Rikudou whatsoever, no Bijuu..........shit doesn't look good for him, reputation doesn't mean much, pretty much everyone knows Kakashi and he got his ass kicked almost the entire part II by Akatsuki. 

Atleast now he looks pretty good, but that's also because he has three other ridiculously powerful ninja to aid him.


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## Ezekial (Sep 21, 2012)

It says he was > the Sannin, but I doubt it, hype is fail sometimes, like with Hanzo


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## shintebukuro (Sep 21, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Ah thanx
> 
> But this statement still doesnt mean Sakumo > a Sannin in strength/skill
> 
> - _the "Three Great Shinobi" of Konoha *legend*...._ They are talking about the "legend" of the Sannin, which is another way of saying reputation



No, it's not. 

What you're referring to is basically a rewording of "Legendary Sannin." Minato was basically saying "In his time, even the Legendary Sannin paled before him."

He's not emphasizing their "legend" or reputation anything like that. He's very simply telling a 13 year-old that Kakashi's Dad was far stronger than even the Big Bad Legendary Sannin when he was around. It's very clear what the author is trying to say there.

Try giving it a read without any preconceived notions you may have in place.



> The Sannin were around their 30's when Sakumo was alive, and not near their prime, since Tsunade handn't even developed her haxx medical ninjutsu and Oro didnt have ET etc.



I've specifically mentioned that it would be referring to the Sannin when they were 32 years old.



> If Sakumo was truly that powerful, Kabuto would have at least tried to revive, or commented on him (like Shisui & Jiraya)
> I'd give Sakumo Low Kage or Elite Jonin at best



That's silly.


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## egressmadara (Sep 21, 2012)

By hype/statement, he's equal to one of the Sannin back when they were young. At least, he's at a high-mid/low-high tier Akatsuki level.


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## Kiss (Sep 22, 2012)

Around Sannin level I guess.


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## Punished Pathos (Sep 22, 2012)

Sakumo must have grad the academy at the age of three.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 22, 2012)

I doubt the Sannin were much of anything around the time Sakumo was earning his hype, so the fact that he was considered on their level or better doesn't amount to much in my eyes. I'd say he may have been around the level of Hanzou or MS-less Kakashi.


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## hokage5522 (Sep 22, 2012)

Its hard to pin down how strong he was overall, due to the fact we dont know how strong the sannin were at the time they were all alive together. If i have to take a shot in the dark i would say he was about as strong as kakashi is now.


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