# Ash's Charizard vs Paul's Electivire



## Cobalt (Jan 26, 2012)

This is Ash's Charizard vs Paul's Electivire Paul was Ash's rival in Sinnoh.

Charizards moves: Flamethrower, Steel Wing, Seismic Toss, Overheat

Electivire: Protect, Thunder Punch, Brick Break, Thunder


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jan 26, 2012)

Charizard moderate diff


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2012)

Charizard can take attacks from Legendaries like Articuno who has absolute zero ice powers (just by flapping its wings it can make vast blizzards, or so the dex goes). And although Charizard had a type advantage, not many "normal" Pokemon can go up against Legendary Pokemon without some type of help or a group effort. Charizard takes this mid-difficulty even with the type disadvantage. Seismic Toss ftw.


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## Omnirix (Jan 26, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Charizard can take attacks from Legendaries like Articuno who has *absolute zero ice powers* (just by flapping its wings it can make vast blizzards, or so the dex goes). And although Charizard had a type advantage, not many "normal" Pokemon can go up against Legendary Pokemon without some type of help or a group effort. Charizard takes this mid-difficulty even with the type disadvantage. Seismic Toss ftw.



When was that? 

Anyways, yeah Charizard should take this with some difficulty since he took down Articuno and Gary's strongest pokemon(Blastoise). But Electivire is pretty strong too since he one-shotted Pikachu.


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## Cobalt (Jan 26, 2012)

Heroic Trunks said:


> When was that?
> 
> Anyways, yeah Charizard should take this with some difficulty since he took down Articuno and Gary's strongest pokemon(Blastoise). But Electivire is pretty strong too since he one-shotted Pikachu.



Pikachu was already tired from battling Paul's Aggron and defeating his Froslass though so it makes sense that it got one shotted. But I pretty much agree with what everyone else is saying Charizard should take this


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## familyparka (Jan 26, 2012)

Heroic Trunks said:


> When was that?
> 
> Anyways, yeah Charizard should take this with some difficulty since he took down Articuno and Gary's strongest pokemon(Blastoise). But Electivire is pretty strong too since he one-shotted Pikachu.



Gym leader, don't remember which season but it was a 1 on 1 fight, Charizard against Articuno.


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## Omnirix (Jan 26, 2012)

Oshawott said:


> Pikachu was already tired from battling Paul's Aggron and defeating his Froslass though so it makes sense that it got one shotted. But I pretty much agree with what everyone else is saying Charizard should take this



IIRC Ash and Pikachu just returned to Pallet town and found out how impressive Electivire was when he sent Team Rocket flying. I don't remember them battling Paul before.


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## Waking Dreamer (Jan 26, 2012)

Heroic Trunks said:


> IIRC Ash and Pikachu just returned to Pallet town and found out how impressive Electivire was when he sent Team Rocket flying. I don't remember them battling Paul before.



This one?

[YOUTUBE]pwRXMv-vB34[/YOUTUBE]


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2012)

Heroic Trunks said:


> IIRC Ash and Pikachu just returned to Pallet town and found out how impressive Electivire was when he sent Team Rocket flying. I don't remember them battling Paul before.



Powerscaling. Weaker Pokemon can easily freeze other pokemon. Weaker attacks of the ice variety can also freeze Pokemon. Articuno = Legendary Ice/Snow Bird. You do that math. Its attacks definitely won't be weaker than say Mamoswine, a pokemon of high tier and strength?


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## Omnirix (Jan 26, 2012)

Waking Dreamer said:


> This one?
> 
> [YOUTUBE]pwRXMv-vB34[/YOUTUBE]



My bad 



Gomu said:


> Powerscaling. Weaker Pokemon can easily freeze other pokemon. Weaker attacks of the ice variety can also freeze Pokemon. Articuno = Legendary Ice/Snow Bird. You do that math. Its attacks definitely won't be weaker than say Mamoswine, a pokemon of high tier and strength?



I still don't see where did it say Articuno can freeze at absolute zero. Maybe I should re-watch him fighting charizard.


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## Gomu (Jan 26, 2012)

Heroic Trunks said:


> My bad
> 
> 
> 
> I still don't see where did it say Articuno can freeze at absolute zero. Maybe I should re-watch him fighting charizard.



No I'm saying Articuno has the ability to easily freeze pokemon at absolute zero if its Legendary status is to be believed. Again weaker pokemon can easily freeze other pokemon with techniques like Sheer Cold, Blizzard like Lapras,Glalie, etc. So it would be reason to say that Articuno can also do such a task since it is a legendary only it has much more ability to do so via powerscaling.

So it's extremely impressive that Charizard can fend and tank attacks from it while it's using ice attacks no problem.

Edit: Added in a youtube of Articuno vs Charizard


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## Omnirix (Jan 27, 2012)

We're off-topic, but Ash's charizard still takes this. 

I am not sure if I buy that Articuno can freeze at that temperature if your basing your claim on an in-game statement of the "sheer cold" attack. Game mechanics doesn't really work here. 

Sides, this is the anime we're talking about. When did any of the ice pokemon use absolute zero? You cannot say Articuno can do it simply because of his "legendary" status. Does he or anyone else shown the feats to back it up?


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## Gomu (Jan 27, 2012)

Of course not. That'd be overkill to freeze an opponent so easily and this is a shonen anime. But yeah Charizard wins.


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## Uberchu (Jan 27, 2012)

If Ice Pokemon can freeze at absolute zero then Magcargo is hotter than the sun and Machamp can punch people into the moon. Just write it off as hyperbole.


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## familyparka (Jan 27, 2012)

Uberchu said:


> If Ice Pokemon can freeze at absolute zero then *Magcargo is hotter than the sun and Machamp can punch people into the moon.* Just write it off as hyperbole.



Those statements where never said.

Still, I think it's hyperble too.


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## Calamity (Jan 27, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Charizard can take attacks from Legendaries like Articuno who has absolute zero ice powers (just by flapping its wings it can make vast blizzards, or so the dex goes).



Being able to make blizzards does not make it absolute zero.
Absolute Zero is a totally different beast compared to normal freezing temperatures. It's literally the absence of heat, i.e. heat is non-existent at these temperatures. It's the theoretical limit on cold temperatures which can't be achieved in real life yet that hasn't stopped fiction from making these:


I had my doubts about this too earlier but they were explained (see Q1) 
stay afloat by an Odin power spell

The A0 page of our wiki also goes in great depth about this:
834 metres

Unless its stated somewhere that Articuno's ice attacks are A0, you can't claim they are. AFAIK, there isn't any entry that says so.




			
				Uberchu said:
			
		

> If Ice Pokemon can freeze at absolute  zero then Magcargo is hotter than the sun and Machamp can punch people  into the moon. Just write it off as hyperbole.


Machamp punching people to the moon? 
At best, he can throw mountains with one arm. And...1000 punches/second. 

As for this match, I don't think Electivire is taking a Seismic Toss or two.


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## Shooting burst stream (Jan 27, 2012)

If Infernape beat him, why wouldn't Charizard be able to? Considering Charizard's attacks are more powerful, he has a flight advantage and his speed isn't bad either considering he beat a Mach 2 Pideot. Couple all that with Charizard takes on legendaries and Electivire gets pwned.


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## Calamity (Jan 27, 2012)

Shooting burst stream said:


> If Infernape beat him, why wouldn't Charizard be able to? Considering Charizard's attacks are more powerful, he has a flight advantage and his speed isn't bad either considering he beat a Mach 2 Pideot. Couple all that with Charizard takes on legendaries and Electivire gets pwned.



Charizard even survived in lava IIRC.


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## hojou (Jan 27, 2012)

Paul  Electivire should take this for these numbeer of reason.
1. He is better trained then charizard.
2. Neither ash or paul is giving them direction. From what I remember charizard is pretty lousy fighting without directions. From what we seen in the past it under estimates oponents and just lays around. 
3.  Better type advantage
4.  He should be stronger via more experience. Ash only had charizard for a certain amount of time.


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## TeenRyu (Jan 27, 2012)

hojou said:


> Paul  Electivire should take this for these numbeer of reason.
> 1. He is better trained then charizard.
> 2. Neither ash or paul is giving them direction. From what I remember charizard is pretty lousy fighting without directions. From what we seen in the past it under estimates oponents and just lays around.
> 3.  Better type advantage
> 4.  He should be stronger via more experience. Ash only had charizard for a certain amount of time.



1- Charizard is better trained; he's been on that Charizard mountain IIRC constantly to train. 
2- that was before Ash got it to listen to him. Now he's a beast and actually fights seriously 
3- type advantage means shit to Charizard, who fought and won against a legendary Ice-type. 
4- ash has had Charizard for a bit of time, but that's because he left it at dragons peak (I believe that's the name) to train with stronger Charizards

Charizard takes this low-mid difficulty


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## Level7N00b (Jan 27, 2012)

Since you limited them to four moves, Charizard wins, mid to high difficulty. If Electivire had all it's moves, this would be much closer.


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## Naruto (Jan 27, 2012)

TeenRyu said:


> 3- type advantage means shit to Charizard, who fought and won against a legendary Ice-type.



Fire>Ice.

Yes, Ice>Flying. But if anything the type advantages cancel each other out here.


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## Shooting burst stream (Jan 27, 2012)

Naruto said:


> Fire>Ice.
> 
> Yes, Ice>Flying. But if anything the type advantages cancel each other out here.



He defeated Gary's Blastoise in the Johto league so the point still stands, type advantages mean very little to Charizard.


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## Xiammes (Jan 27, 2012)

To clear up some confusion, Articuno has absolute zero attacks, most ice pokemon do. Sheer Cold is the strongest ice move in pokemon since its an absolute zero ice move, problem is it has a low accuracy rate and probably won't hit pokemon that are fast like Charizard.



> Magcargo is hotter than the sun



Pokedex says the surface of the sun, which there are hotter points on spots of the earth, such as when lighting strikes sand, its several times the suns surface in heat.


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## Waking Dreamer (Jan 27, 2012)

Level7N00b said:


> Since you limited them to four moves, Charizard wins, mid to high difficulty. If Electivire had all it's moves, this would be much closer.



I forget what other moves did Electivire show?

The thing with the pokemon anime compared to the game, is that an anime battle fights like fighting games while game mechanics is rooted in turn-based rpg style and stats.

Type advantages doesnt count so much in the anime because you can pretty attack at the same time as your opponent - to cancel attacks, or jump/dodge or even quick-attack to avoid your opponents offensive and then counter attack.

Its not that Charizard wont be weakened by electric attacks but if he can avoid or cancel out Electivires Thunder with his Flamethrower etc.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jan 27, 2012)

Charizard easily ignored thunder and thunderpunch from Drake's Electabuzz in the Orange arc. Now you have a much stronger Charizard who fights legendaries...

This absolute zero stuff in pokemon is horse shit.

Never proven/stated in the ANIME. Use anime scenes when talking about anime pokemon. This isn't composite (I'm too lazy to argue about the games...).


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## Xiammes (Jan 27, 2012)

> This absolute zero stuff in pokemon is horse shit.
> 
> Never proven/stated in the ANIME. Use anime scenes when talking about anime pokemon. This isn't composite (I'm too lazy to argue about the games...).



A lot of pokemon moves don't get shown in the anime, but according to primary canon Sheer Cold is absolute Zero. Articuno never used it in the anime, so Charizard has no feats of tanking absolute zero. Still though Articuno is a bastard at freezing he doesn't need absolute zero to fuck over much of the pokeverse.

Sources 


> Sheer Cold (ぜったいれいど Absolute Zero) is a Ice-type move introduced in Generation III.
> 
> In Battle
> 
> The foe is attacked with a blast of absolute-zero cold. The foe instantly faints if it hits.



This has the anime episodes it was used in.


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## Gomu (Jan 27, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> A lot of pokemon moves don't get shown in the anime, but according to primary canon Sheer Cold is absolute Zero. Articuno never used it in the anime, so Charizard has no feats of tanking absolute zero. Still though Articuno is a bastard at freezing he doesn't need absolute zero to fuck over much of the pokeverse.
> 
> Sources
> 
> ...



And many of the Pokemon that can use Sheer Cold are much weaker than Articuno. Pokemon like Lapris and Walerin. Articuno is a legendary that can easily change the weather just as Zapdos and Moltres can, by only flapping its wings. Causing Blizzards just by being in close vicinity with a spot.

For example. Zapdos can rain lightning bolts by creating spikes of electricity in the atmosphere. Moltres can easily make a place known for snow spring, etc.


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## Uberchu (Jan 27, 2012)

These claims of absolute zero are just hyperbole. That's it. Most of the fluff from the Pokedex and move descriptions are way too powerful. Do you really think a Pokemon like Spheal can freeze at absolute zero temperatures?



Xiammes said:


> Pokedex says the surface of the sun, which there are hotter points on spots of the earth, such as when lighting strikes sand, its several times the suns surface in heat.



If Magcargo is hotter than the sun than so is Amaterasu. And if that's true, than Cloyster has a harder than diamond shell. 

As we all know, feats > baseless claims. And most of the claims of the Pokedex are pretty much BS. Do you seriously think Larvitar can eat an entire mountain? If it could, then the Pokemon World should have been ravaged beyond repair a long time ago assuming a small population of, say, 50-100.


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## Gomu (Jan 27, 2012)

Uberchu said:


> These claims of absolute zero are just hyperbole. That's it. Most of the fluff from the Pokedex and move descriptions are way too powerful. Do you really think a Pokemon like Spheal can freeze at absolute zero temperatures?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Pokemon are hax. We knew that already. Creatures as weak as Elgyem being able to generate and use dark matter. So I'm believing the Pokedex until stated otherwise. No Larvitar needs to eat ridiculous amounts of food and then go into hibernation in order to form a cocoon which is its second evolution.


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## Xiammes (Jan 27, 2012)

> These claims of absolute zero are just hyperbole. That's it. Most of the fluff from the Pokedex and move descriptions are way too powerful. Do you really think a Pokemon like Spheal can freeze at absolute zero temperatures?



About as likely I am to believe that animals have special powers and humans to fight with them for sport. It's a high level technique, a level 1 spheal isn't gonna kill anyone with Sheer Cold since it doesn't work on pokemon with a higher level, but a seasoned level 100 spheal, it can pull it off. A Hyperbole is something like Machamp punching to the moon, not something that can be measured by science.



> If Magcargo is hotter than the sun than so is Amaterasu. And if that's true, than Cloyster has a harder than diamond shell.



How do you confuse the surface of the sun, with the sun? Also who is to say Cloysters shell isn't? Since when can we doubt fiction with real world logic? Real world logic just fills in the blanks if none are shown.




> As we all know, feats > baseless claims. And most of the claims of the Pokedex are pretty much BS. Do you seriously think Larvitar can eat an entire mountain? If it could, then the Pokemon World should have been ravaged beyond repair a long time ago assuming a small population of, say, 50-100.



Pokedex entries like that are a hyperbole until proven otherwise, but are you gonna doubt something that could be easily proven such as absolute zero attacks.


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## Cocoa (Jan 27, 2012)

He has flight advantage which gives him the edge. Another thing to note is that Infernape is stronger than Electivire. There is no way Infernape got stronger than Charizard in one season. So Charizard should have the advantage in every department. Charizard has been training for many seasons so there is no way that Infernape would be near Charizard's level atm.


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## Uberchu (Jan 27, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Pokemon are hax. We knew that already. Creatures as weak as Elgyem being able to generate and use dark matter. So I'm believing the Pokedex until stated otherwise. No Larvitar needs to eat ridiculous amounts of food and then go into hibernation in order to form a cocoon which is its second evolution.



2. If Larvitar really did need to eat a mountain just to evolve, then the world would be completely ravaged. In ten or twenty more years all the mountains would be gone. Now tell me, why are there still mountains in the Pokemon world?

And just saying Pokemon are hax doesn't cut it if their feats don't back it up.



Xiammes said:


> About as likely I am to believe that animals have special powers and humans to fight with them for sport. It's a high level technique, *a level 1 spheal isn't gonna kill anyone with Sheer Cold since it doesn't work on pokemon with a higher level, but a seasoned level 100 spheal, it can pull it off.* A Hyperbole is something like Machamp punching to the moon, not something that can be measured by science.



Those are game mechanics. Absolute zero is still absolute zero. Not to mention how when absolute zero was used in the anime, it wasn't nearly as cold as true absolute zero. 

And what do you mean by "not use it as well?" Do you mean that a Lv 1 Spheal has a weaker Sheer Cold than a Lv 100 Spheal's? That would contradict absolute zero, which is the coldest anything can be. 



> How do you confuse the surface of the sun, with the sun? Also who is to say Cloysters shell isn't? Since when can we doubt fiction with real world logic? Real world logic just fills in the blanks if none are shown.



I didn't. Feats from Magcargo in the anime SHOW that isn't hotter than the sun. If it really was, everything around it would be molten pudding. And Cloyster was shown in the anime, and its feats there SHOW it isn't stonger than diamond. , Kingler defeated Cloyster wit Crabhammer. Now unless you're telling me Kingler has more force than a bomb, Cloyster is not harder than diamond. 



> Pokedex entries like that are a hyperbole until proven otherwise, but are you gonna doubt something that could be easily proven such as absolute zero attacks.



I don't think you realize just how cold absolute zero is.


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## Waking Dreamer (Jan 27, 2012)

> a level 1 spheal isn't gonna kill anyone with Sheer Cold since it doesn't work on pokemon with a higher level, but a seasoned level 100 spheal, it can pull it off. A Hyperbole is something like Machamp punching to the moon, not something that can be measured by science.



Thats the thing though, Absolute Zero has been measured by science, but as far as I know the term doesnt have varying degrees...so what is the difference between a lvl 1 Absolute Zero attack and a lvl 100 Absolute zero attack...in scientific terms?

In other words how "cold" is a lvl 1 attack and how much colder is a lvl 100 attack?


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## Xiammes (Jan 27, 2012)

Sorry about any confusion, but what I am trying to say is that Sheer Cold takes training to be successful like any other skill, while levels may not matter outside the verse but the inherent skill to use it. There is a world of difference between a level 1 spheal and a level 100(aka untrained to trained to use it).




> In other words how "cold" is a lvl 1 attack and how much colder is a lvl 100 attack?



Failure rate, the attack simply would not affect them by game mechanics.



> I didn't. Feats from Magcargo in the anime SHOW that isn't hotter than the sun. If it really was, everything around it would be molten pudding. And Cloyster was shown in the anime, and its feats there SHOW it isn't stonger than diamond. Here, Kingler defeated Cloyster wit Crabhammer. Now unless you're telling me Kingler has more force than a bomb, Cloyster is not harder than diamond.



First of all, your reading comprehension is pissing me off, rather you realize it or not, just to let you know. I don't think I needed to correct you a 3rd time that it never said as hot as the sun, only the surface, unless you are dense enough to believe the surface of the sun is as hot as eternal temperatures, which I hope you aren't. Just letting you know, no ill intentions really.

Good, Marcargo has contradictory feets, its not the first time its happened in fiction. 

The word bomb is ambiguous, I am more then willing to say his crab Hammer has more force then a stick of tnt. Also isn't blunt force is armors bane, Crabhammer most likely was causing internal damage. Not saying he does or doesn't have stronger then diamond armor, but you can't dispel it with such little evidence. I mean its not like Lavitars eating mountains, the pokeworld would be much different if that were true.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jan 27, 2012)

Why the fuck are game mechanics being discussed in a thread involving anime characters?


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## Xiammes (Jan 27, 2012)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> Why the fuck are game mechanics being discussed in a thread involving anime characters?



I dunno, just explaining that Sheer Cold is an absolute zero attack, also didn't the anime have levels too, just not to the extent of the manga.


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## mystictrunks (Jan 28, 2012)

Uberchu said:


> 2. If Larvitar really did need to eat a mountain just to evolve, then the world would be completely ravaged. In ten or twenty more years all the mountains would be gone. Now tell me, why are there still mountains in the Pokemon world?


The family is extremely rare and mountains range in size from a few hundred feet to the Himilayas.



> I didn't. Feats from Magcargo in the anime SHOW that isn't hotter than the sun. If it really was, everything around it would be molten pudding.


The surface of the sun isn't much hotter than a candle flame. Many objects on Earth burn at that temperature, such as undersea welding torches, and they don't turn everything around them into goo. The heat doesn't travel that far.



> And Cloyster was shown in the anime, and its feats there SHOW it isn't stonger than diamond. , Kingler defeated Cloyster wit Crabhammer. Now unless you're telling me Kingler has more force than a bomb, Cloyster is not harder than diamond.


Breaking diamond isn't about the amount of force exerted but how it is applied. Breaking diamond into smaller pieces with sheer force concentrated on a point is how it's broken in the real world after all.


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## Calamity (Jan 28, 2012)

Since this isn't composite, I am of the opinion that we shouldn't be applying stuff that wasn't shown or stated in the source is being used.

But if this was composite version, I don't see why Articuno shouldn't get A0 using Sheer Cold. 

ALSO:

*Spoiler*: __ 




BTW, composite Articuno has feats dating back to the Sengoku period


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## Gomu (Jan 28, 2012)

MohsinMan99 said:


> Since this isn't composite, I am of the opinion that we shouldn't be applying stuff that wasn't shown or stated in the source is being used.
> 
> But if this was composite version, I don't see why Articuno shouldn't get A0 using Sheer Cold.
> 
> ...



Freezing hoes and icing regions since the 15th century, eh?


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jan 28, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> I dunno, just explaining that Sheer Cold is an absolute zero attack, also didn't the anime have levels too, just not to the extent of the manga.



Games dont equal anime period. Serveral moves behave differently.

No levels, it was stated once in the first few eps than abandoned. Pikachu should be level 100, but still loses to beginner pokemon.


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## Cocoa (Jan 28, 2012)

My post still stands it seems.


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