# Itachi was a terrible character.



## EJ (Oct 5, 2014)

I still can't wrap my head around the fact that the creator of this godforsaken manga/anime tried to make genocide a grey area. 

This guy even killed babies and children and their sleep and committed mass murder and wanted his little brother to live a lie. Fuck Itachi man..

Reactions: Agree 10 | Winner 2 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1


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## Beyonce (Oct 5, 2014)

Calling all Itachi fans
Although to be honest I do agree


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## LesExit (Oct 5, 2014)

...ya I don't get it  ...D:


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## Trojan (Oct 5, 2014)

Of course he is.


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## Itachі (Oct 5, 2014)

Committing atrocious acts doesn't make a character terrible.

Orochimaru _was_ a great character, it's sudden the halt of his fucked up activity that was his downfall.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Might Gai (Oct 5, 2014)

i think he had the potential to be a great character if kishi played his cards a little better.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Oct 5, 2014)

He's trash. Glad the disease killed him.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Flow said:


> I still can't wrap my head around the fact that the creator of this godforsaken manga/anime tried to make genocide a grey area.
> 
> This guy even killed babies and children and their sleep and committed mass murder and wanted his little brother to live a lie. Fuck Itachi man..



There is not a single shred of evidence that Itachi killed any babies or children.

In fact, half of the reason he gave for sparing Sasuke was his age and ignorance of the Uchiha coup d'etat; the other half was that Itachi wanted an Uchiha to exact vengeance against him.

Itachi did some objectionable things, but he wasn't bad and certainly wasn't a bad character.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## EJ (Oct 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> There is not a single shred of evidence that Itachi killed any babies or children.



Be at this was a clan it's to be expected there would be children within it, if not babies. 

itachi also killed a "lover" or someone else that was a good friend to him, and I doubt they were an adult.

And tbh, I thought about you when I typed that part in it. You are the main person saying Itachi "didn't kill any babies or children".


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## Radice (Oct 5, 2014)

Second the Anime there were other children besides Sasuke in the clan...





Itachi killed childrens.


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## Radice (Oct 5, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Committing atrocious acts doesn't make a character terrible.
> 
> Orochimaru _was_ a great character, it's sudden the halt of his fucked up activity that was his downfall.




Orochimaru is as always a villain.
Kishimoto never tried to excuse  his actions.

Itachi should always be a villain.
But Kishimoto tried to made this guy a Hero and Saint.

Itachi kill his whole clan included his Mother and Father in front of Sasuke
Tortured Sasuke constantly with a brutal Tsukuyomi.
Tell Sasuke to kill his best friend
Tell Sasuke to dedicate his existence to vengeance
Itachi was a criminal who helped akatsuki to seal all the bijuus.

But in the end Kishimoto made a poor excuse and try to justify Itachi's action and the worst try to made Itachi a Saint who always loved Sasuke.

Kishimoto tried to add in a twist, but failed to adequately cover his back in terms of what he had already established in the story.

This poor twist plot made Itachi transforms in a horrible character.


Kishimoto still wanking Itachi at this point.

Hiruzen: Itachi acted and thought  like  as a hokage with 7 years old

Sasuke: My brother who deserves to be the true Hokage


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Flow said:


> Be at this was a clan it's to be expected there would be children within it, if not babies.



But that's speculation. You're saying what sounds reasonable to you, rather than what we actually have evidence for.



> itachi also killed a "lover" or someone else that was a good friend to him, and I doubt they were an adult.



But if she (or he) was Itachi's age, then she (or he) probably knew about the coup and would've had an active role in it...as he did.



> And tbh, I thought about you when I typed that part in it. You are the main person saying Itachi "didn't kill any babies or children".



It's not hard to bait me when Itachi's involved. ck

It's like Beetlejuice, except you only need to say the name one time and I'll appear out of nowhere.



Radice said:


> Second the Anime there were other children besides Sasuke in the clan...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The anime isn't the original canon, though; it's an adaptation, and there are some discrepancies between them.


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## Firestormer (Oct 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> There is not a single shred of evidence that Itachi killed any babies or children.



Sasuke was probs not the only child in an entire village. He killed babies and maybe even puppies sorry.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Trojan (Oct 5, 2014)

Even Danzo said something about the children, thinking an entire clan has no children is foolish.


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## LesExit (Oct 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Even Danzo said something about the children, thinking an entire clan has no children is foolish.


ya I'm not sure why people think Sasuke was the only child...that just seems really weird and doesn't make sense. Like...was the clan planning on dying off or something. How does no one have children for years...?


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## EJ (Oct 5, 2014)

Why would the Uchiha clan not have any children if they were not only about pride, but also advancing their own people ? What you're arguing is that "There wasn't any children since there wasn't even shown". 

That's really illogical, there were plenty of adults/young adults on the ground shown on the ground when Itachi murdered them all, and you're really trying to say Sasuke is the only kid out of a group of 30-50 people? I'm just talking about the death count of which we see on the streets in the flashbacks. 

He killed a lot of more people in their sleep. Kishimoto rarely shows children getting murdered, so it's reasonable to see he would skip this notion.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Firestormer said:


> Sasuke was probs not the only child in an entire village. He killed babies and maybe even puppies sorry.



Your whole argument hinges on "probably," though...

And it's entirely probable that out of one family, the youngest would be eight years old; my family has like 20 people on either parent's side and our youngest is graduating high school soon. Itachi said the Uchiha clan had dwindled in number, so it's not inconceivable that Sasuke would be the only one too young to be involved with their political bullshit.



Hussain said:


> Even Danzo said something about the children, thinking an entire clan has no children is foolish.



In Japanese, the wording was ambiguous. It could have been either "child" or "children," and the context seems to suggest Danzo meant Sasuke in particular.


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## EJ (Oct 5, 2014)

It's like saying "There isn't any toilet paper in the Narutoverse since you don't really see it"

Come on now.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Flow said:


> Why would the Uchiha clan not have any children if they were not only about pride, but also advancing their own people ? What you're arguing is that "There wasn't any children since there wasn't even shown".



I'm not arguing that there were no children--I'm arguing that there's no evidence there were any children. There's a difference.



> That's really illogical, there were plenty of adults/young adults on the ground shown on the ground when Itachi murdered them all,



Notice how they were _all_ adults/young adults, though.



> and you're really trying to say Sasuke is the only kid out of a group of 30-50 people?



Where did you get that number? I never counted more than like one or two dozen Uchiha from the most recent generation, including the faceless bodycounts.



> I'm just talking about the death count of which we see on the streets in the flashbacks.



We never saw more than four dead Uchiha in any given panel. I know--I counted. That's how much of a life I do not have, when it comes to Itachi. Don't underestimate how obsessed I am with the guy. ck



> He killed a lot of more people in their sleep.



From the looks of the crime scene, most of them were in the streets and there is evidence of a struggle.

Not that terrorists are entitled to a warning in the first place, since that's basically what the Uchiha were...



> Kishimoto rarely shows children getting murdered, so it's reasonable to see he would skip this notion.



Part 1 was full of child murder, and it's not like he couldn't have at least mentioned if there were other Uchiha children, even if he wasn't going to show or mention Itachi killing them.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Flow said:


> It's like saying "There isn't any toilet paper in the Narutoverse since you don't really see it"
> 
> Come on now.



We actually do see toilet paper when Naruto gets the runs from drinking spoiled milk. 

And you're still misrepresenting my argument. I'm not saying there were no other Uchiha kids--I'm saying there isn't evidence to suggest there were, which means your claim that Itachi must have killed them is unfounded. There is a difference between saying something is false and saying that there is no evidence it is true.


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## Trojan (Oct 5, 2014)

Niku, you're being delusional. U_U



> ya I'm not sure why people think Sasuke was the only child...that just seems really weird and doesn't make sense. Like...was the clan planning on dying off or something. How does no one have children for years...?



yup, especially they were a clan that get involved in Wars so much, they rationally try to multiply their numbers, and even in the peace time, that's still relevant as they were planning to go against the village anyway, and more men = more power. 

For example, Madara's father had 5 kids or so. The same thing with the Senju, as butsuma (or whatever his name was) had at least 4 kids as well....

they were not trying to die off obviously. O_O

but I guess love is blind.


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## EJ (Oct 5, 2014)

> Part 1 was full of child murder, and it's not like he couldn't have at least mentioned if there were other Uchiha children, even if he wasn't going to show or mention Itachi killing them.
> __________________



If you're talking about teenagers, I think Haku was the most gruesome as it gets. 

In this manga, it's hard to pinpoint the ages of a lot of these characters due to not only how they act but also how they look at times. In a lot of cases, we never really see anyone below a teenager get killed. 


> We actually do see toilet paper when Naruto gets the runs from drinking spoiled milk.



Was that not filler?

And Nikushimi, this entire argument is full of crap dude. There were a bunch of eyeballs that Danzo and Obito had of the Uchiha clan. Stop trying to spitefully defend the fact your mantoy was a killer that also went after children.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Niku, you're being delusional. U_U
> 
> 
> 
> yup, especially they were a clan that get involved in Wars so much, they rationally try to multiply their numbers, and even in the peace time, that's still relevant as they were planning to go against the village anyway, and more men = more power.



They didn't have time to wait for kids to grow up; in fact, getting all of their women pregnant at once would make a large chunk of their population untenable for combat--they'd effectively be splitting their manpower in half, assuming Uchiha chicks were really worth a damn on the battlefield (which I guess may be uncertain in this manga). If anything, celibacy would have been more suitable to their immediate interests.



> For example, Madara's father had 5 kids or so. The same thing with the Senju, as butsuma (or whatever his name was) had at least 4 kids as well....
> 
> they were not trying to die off obviously. O_O
> 
> but I guess love is blind.



That was literally like a hundred years ago in the manga. Those weren't the Uchiha that Itachi killed.



Flow said:


> If you're talking about teenagers, I think Haku was the most gruesome as it gets.
> 
> In this manga, it's hard to pinpoint the ages of a lot of these characters due to not only how they act but also how they look at times. In a lot of cases, we never really see anyone below a teenager get killed.



Zabuza was what, like 6 when he murdered those kids in the Mist's ninja school battle royale? That shit looked like somebody tipped over the Kool-Aid Man. There were bodies of dead kids shown and everything.



> Was that not filler?



That was back when Kishi still cared about the simple things.



> And Nikushimi, this entire argument is full of crap dude. There were a bunch of eyeballs that Danzo and Obito had of the Uchiha clan.



There were a lot of Uchiha that died in the massacre--enough to stock Danzo's arm and Obito's shelves. And who knows where else they may have acquired Sharingan from. Maybe Madara kept a supply that Obito inherited. The Uchiha that Itachi killed weren't the only Uchiha ever.

But it's worth pointing out that all those eyes seemed to be in fact Sharingan, and Uchiha aren't just naturally born with those; it's a trait that develops later, with combat experience and trauma. They aren't the eyes of an innocent kid.



> Stop trying to spitefully defend the fact your mantoy was a killer that also went after children.



Stop making baseless accusations for which you have no evidence.


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## EJ (Oct 5, 2014)

> *Maybe *




Oh my god, the hypocrisy.. 

You're trying to draw lines that lead to no where when Obito, Danzo, and Madara were collecting eyes for a long period of time. Please, just stop..

You can't even admit that there were children besides Sasuke in the village


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2014)

Flow said:


> Oh my god, the hypocrisy..
> 
> You're trying to draw lines that lead to no where when Obito, Danzo, and Madara were collecting eyes for a long period of time. Please, just stop..
> 
> You can't even admit that there were children besides Sasuke in the village



Oh there were definitely other children in the village. But there is no evidence of other children in the Uchiha clan specifically.


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## EJ (Oct 5, 2014)

Yes there was, since they were a clan. I have never seen or heard of a clan of 15 plus people with only like one kid in it. 

And you're here trying to draw lines away from the fact that there were tons of Uchiha eyes collected for an extended period of time.


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## Blu-ray (Oct 5, 2014)

While I agree with you, it's for other reasons. Doing bad things doesn't make a character terrible. Being poorly written makes a character terrible, and lets face it, that applies to everyone whose been in the manga in the past what, four-five years? Save a few exceptions of course.

Murdering the Uchiha didn't make him a shitty character. It established his character to begin with. If anything, it was how the reveal of his true intentions made everything he did illogical in hindsight.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5


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## Bloo (Oct 5, 2014)

I can't tolerate people that can't understand the black and white difference between children in the Naruto world and children in our world. In the Naruto world, children are soldiers that are capable of killing. On top of that, you have an annual spectacle known as the Chuunin Exams that lavishes itself on sending children to compete and fight (sometimes to the death) and send them through obstacles, via the Forest of Death, where many children die. On top of that, countries bet on which kid wins in fights that can result in death. Add to it that Kakashi was a Chuunin at the age of 6, there's no sensible way to contend that children should be viewed as helpless. Children are capable soldiers. On top of that, Itachi was a mere thirteen years old. Itachi stated that he spared Sasuke for his innocence for the most part. Yes, there probably were other children in the clan, but saying that they were all innocent bystanders... We can't tell that. Even if they were, the children would have died regardless as Danzo would have killed them regardless. Fact. Anyone blaming Itachi for the death of children needs to grow up and think of things more pragmatically and from the perspective of someone from that world.


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## RedChidori (Oct 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> There is not a single shred of evidence that Itachi killed any babies or children.
> 
> In fact, half of the reason he gave for sparing Sasuke was his age and ignorance of the Uchiha coup d'etat; the other half was that Itachi wanted an Uchiha to exact vengeance against him.
> 
> Itachi did some objectionable things, but he wasn't bad and certainly wasn't a bad character.



This really.


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## EJ (Oct 5, 2014)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## Deleted member 375 (Oct 5, 2014)

Nah, he was alright. 

Not to say I agree with genocide or anything like that, but I don't think he was a badly built character.


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## babaGAReeb (Oct 5, 2014)

genocide is a great thing in this manga

if even madmen like obito r considered heroes why leave itachi out?


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## Bloo (Oct 5, 2014)

Did you draw that? Is that why you're showing us that? Showing a fanmade picture is a terrible argument especially when there are many counter arguments for this point.

Besides, even if I did consider Itachi's deeds in the Massacre to be unforgivable, it doesn't inherently make him a bad character.

And, who's to say Itachi was undoubtedly the killer of the unseen children and that it wasn't Tobi? No one can say definitely, so why blame someone for a crime you can't prove? Besides, what other choices did Itachi have if he indeed was the individual to kill these unseen children? Danzo would have done the same thing after stealing their eyes.


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## Deleted member 23 (Oct 5, 2014)

Radice said:


> Second the Anime there were other children besides Sasuke in the clan...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anime is canon now?


Flow said:


> Yes there was, since they were a clan. I have never seen or heard of a clan of 15 plus people with only like one kid in it.
> 
> And you're here trying to draw lines away from the fact that there were tons of Uchiha eyes collected for an extended period of time.


Just becasue you didn't hear of it that doesn't mean they didn't exist or happen.
More fanon. 

Is this all Itachi haters can do?


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## EJ (Oct 6, 2014)

People with Itachi sets and love for Itachi excusing everything he did.


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## Bloo (Oct 6, 2014)

Flow said:


> People with Itachi sets and love for Itachi excusing everything he did.


Considering the fact that we're posting evidence whereas you're posting fanmade artwork, I think we're winning this discussion. Children simply aren't the same in the Narutoverse as they are in our world, and as such cannot be viewed the same. Children fighting to the death is a spectacle people bet on in this world. On top of that, Danzo would have killed children regardless.

Add to it that there were two people who participated in the massacre and we've yet to see Uchiha children other than Sasuke, Itachi, and Shisui, and we don't know how Tobi and Itachi split up the massacre, ignorantly claiming Itachi killed unseen children is just an arrogant asspull of an excuse to hate on a character.


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## Mashiba Ryō (Oct 6, 2014)

The sad thing is Itachi is Kishi's most proud creation.


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## EJ (Oct 6, 2014)

You guys aren't posting evidence, you're trying to do the same thing Nikushimi just did and attempt at trying to say that Itachi didn't kill any children since "They were never shown" despite the fact that we were never given an exact estimate of the body counts or the ages of which he killed. 

The fact that you people think a clan like the Uchiha clan that was for furthering their cause would only have "one child" at a time like this is absurd, and it furthers pin-points how deluded some of you are. 

Do I think that there were heaps and loads of children stretching out to be a good percentage of the clan? No, but there were definitely children within the clan besides Sasuke. Please show me a clan where that consist of one child, especially one as noteworthy as the Uchiha clan.


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## EJ (Oct 6, 2014)

Also going along with it and supporting it shows he very well helped kill these children. Please stop trying to shit the blame from him, he played a dire role in the killing of an entire group of people.


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## Bloo (Oct 6, 2014)

Flow said:


> You guys aren't posting evidence, you're trying to do the same thing Nikushimi just did and attempt at trying to say that Itachi didn't kill any children since "They were never shown" despite the fact that we were never given an exact estimate of the body counts or the ages of which he killed.


You're saying Itachi killed children despite them never being shown, thus you do hold the burden of proof to show that they at least existed. That's very basic rhetoric.



> The fact that you people think a clan like the Uchiha clan that was for furthering their cause would only have "one child" at a time like this is absurd, and it furthers pin-points how deluded some of you are.


"One child"? Actually, Itachi, Shisui, and Sasuke were all children around that time.

And, actually, I and many others have posted about the moralities regarding children being COMPLETELY different from that in our world. On top of that, Danzo would have killed them regardless. There are too many questions regarding this area because Tobi could have killed them. Even if Itachi had killed him, it was his mission and the children were probably aware of the coup. Until you can prove that claim false when Itachi directly implies that himself, come back to me. And if you do, leaving around a child with the Uchiha's vengeful blood would be dangerous. Look at what Sasuke became. Having more of those would be terrifyingly detrimental for Konoha.



> Do I think that there were heaps and loads of children stretching out to be a good percentage of the clan? No, but there were definitely children within the clan besides Sasuke.


Yes. Itachi and Shisui. Beyond that? Probably. Should you rag on about how immoral and terrible a character is despite of that without proof? No. Should you hate a character regarding children who were not at all defenseless? No. Don't compare Naruto's morals to ours.



> Please show me a clan where that consist of one child, especially one as noteworthy as the Uchiha clan.


This is a stupid argument. We don't know how the Uchiha works. Some clans in the real world actually would limit how many children were being born. On top of that, Itachi flat out said their numbers were shrinking drastically when he was piggy-backing Sasuke and talking about the Uchiha Police Force. We don't know. So, quit trying to base an argument on, "There had to have been other children because there just had to." And as I've said, if there were other children (which you can't prove), for the sake of the mission, Itachi did the right thing if he was the one to kill them and not Tobi.


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## Bloo (Oct 6, 2014)

Flow said:


> Also going along with it and supporting it shows he very well helped kill these children. Please stop trying to shit the blame from him, he played a dire role in the killing of an entire group of people.


To keep that group of people from causing a war to have millions die. The people that hate Itachi are ultimately the very short-sighted individuals who shouldn't be involved in politics.


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## JaggerJax (Oct 6, 2014)

Maybe the uchihas weren't making babies at the time because they were too busy sulking and being spiteful. Or maybe they decided to abort their own babies because they would love them to much 
( true Sasuke logic)


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## Bloo (Oct 6, 2014)

Flow said:


> Kishimoto rarely shows children getting murdered, so it's reasonable to see he would skip this notion.



*Spoiler*: _Some Dead Children_


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## Jagger (Oct 6, 2014)

Flow said:


> People with Itachi sets and love for Itachi excusing everything he did.


So you're saying the massacre was unnecessary, then?


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## Monster (Oct 6, 2014)

Itachi is one of the greatest characters in fiction.


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## Overhaul (Oct 6, 2014)

> *Itachi was a terrible character.*


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## Revolution (Oct 6, 2014)

JaggerJax said:


> Maybe the uchihas weren't making babies at the time because they were too busy sulking and being spiteful. Or maybe they decided to abort their own babies because they would love them to much
> ( true Sasuke logic)



This would almost be funny if it were not for the fact that they have existed for centuries with no problem other then the perpetual war which was for the sake of the fuedal lords until the retcon that it was all Black Zetsu's idea.


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## EJ (Oct 6, 2014)

Bloo said:


> You're saying Itachi killed children despite them never being shown, thus you do hold the burden of proof to show that they at least existed. That's very basic rhetoric.



It's possible that many people in the Narutoverse don't use the bathroom that often since we never really see them use it minus a few times. It's possible that many of them don't have to urinate or defecate. 



> "One child"? Actually, Itachi, Shisui, and Sasuke were all children around that time.
> 
> And, actually, I and many others have posted about the moralities regarding children being COMPLETELY different from that in our world. On top of that, Danzo would have killed them regardless. There are too many questions regarding this area because Tobi could have killed them. Even if Itachi had killed him, it was his mission and the children were probably aware of the coup. Until you can prove that claim false when Itachi directly implies that himself, come back to me. And if you do, leaving around a child with the Uchiha's vengeful blood would be dangerous. Look at what Sasuke became. Having more of those would be terrifyingly detrimental for Konoha.



So Itachi basically contributed to an oppressive system where children such as himself were used as pawns, and murdered his own people and not only defiled his family's name, but also wanted his younger brother to live a lie after forcing him through a traumatic experience..

No matter how you try to slice it, you can't make his actions seem less fucked up. He didn't attempt to try and get rid of Konoha's oppressive system, he just left them to do whatever and actually trusted them enough to keep his brother out of harm's way. If his brother were to EVER be killed by them, then he would *spitefully *leak information as to what Konoha did in order to start another ninja war. 



> Yes. Itachi and Shisui. Beyond that? Probably. Should you rag on about how immoral and terrible a character is despite of that without proof? No. Should you hate a character regarding children who were not at all defenseless? No. Don't compare Naruto's morals to ours.




This isn't even an argument at this point, there were children in the clan that I believe, and you believe other wise. I'm not going to run cycles trying to change your opinion when it's so biased.



> This is a stupid argument. /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I know, your argument is entirely flawed and stupid.


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## Bloo (Oct 6, 2014)

Flow said:


> It's possible that many people in the Narutoverse don't use the bathroom that often since we never really see them use it minus a few times. It's possible that many of them don't have to urinate or defecate.


That's not the same thing. Completely different example and that doesn't prove anything for this case. The way a particular fictional clan lives and organizes itself is entirely different from a bodily function.




> So Itachi basically contributed to an oppressive system where children such as himself were used as pawns, and murdered his own people and not only defiled his family's name, but also wanted his younger brother to live a lie after forcing him through a traumatic experience..


The freaking Hokage watched as children fought, possibly to the death. It's not a big deal in that world.



> No matter how you try to slice it, you can't make his actions seem less fucked up. He didn't attempt to try and get rid of Konoha's oppressive system, he just left them to do whatever and actually trusted them enough to keep his brother out of harm's way. If his brother were to EVER be killed by them, then he would *spitefully *leak information as to what Konoha did in order to start another ninja war.


What on earth was he to do and why was it his responsibility? MANY people didn't do anything against that and Itachi's life practically ended at the age of 13 and he ended it preventing a war with millions of casualties. Grow up.




> This isn't even an argument at this point, there were children in the clan that I believe, and you believe other wise. I'm not going to run cycles trying to change your opinion when it's so biased.


You can't prove that. That's the problem. Besides, as I have said, the right choice was made.



> This is a stupid argument.


Your whole contentions are stupid and only run on insensible feelings.

I know, your argument is entirely flawed and stupid.


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## EJ (Oct 6, 2014)

Bloo said:


> That's not the same thing. Completely different example and that doesn't prove anything for this case. The way a particular fictional clan lives and organizes itself is entirely different from a bodily function.



No, it is the same thing. Most clans through out history that are note-worthy in a historical sense always had multiple children within their families. 

If what you're trying to say is that at one point there were many "adults" (ages 14 plus in your definition), it would of been described more as a family. 

You don't want to accept the notion that there were children within the Uchiha clan, because it _incriminates _Itachi more. Were there a lot at Sasuke's age? Who knows, but it's dumb to say:

"No! Sasuke, Itachi, Shusi, and Itachi's lover were the only current children...! Because...they were the only ones shown! Out of an entire clan!"





> The freaking Hokage watched as children fought, possibly to the death. It's not a big deal in that world.



It still doesn't make it any less wrong. You're doing a finger pointing game saying "W-Well, look what he did!"



> What on earth was he to do and why was it his responsibility? MANY people didn't do anything against that and Itachi's life practically ended at the age of 13 and he ended it preventing a war with millions of casualties. Grow up.



Telling me to grow up while you're blowing a gasket over your favorite anime character that committed mass genocide and even self-admitted his actions were too rash and there was definitely another way he could of gone about the situation? 





> You can't prove that. That's the problem. Besides, as I have said, the right choice was made.




Just like you can't prove there is toilet paper in the Narutoverse. 




> Your whole contentions are stupid and only run on insensible feelings.



Your whole contentions are stupid and only runs on insensible feelings regarding a character you greatly admire in a sick way.

See how I can spin this?

"
I know, your argument is entirely flawed and stupid"

Thanks for typing this out for me, so I can apply it right back at you.


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## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

This picture is honestly what made me not like Itachi at all...
like...goodness. He killed his own parents, it's not hard to believe he would've killed small children too. Itachi's "heroism" is so messed up to me


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## DavyChan (Oct 6, 2014)

Flow said:


> I still can't wrap my head around the fact that the creator of this godforsaken manga/anime tried to make genocide a grey area.
> 
> This guy even killed babies and children and their sleep and committed mass murder and wanted his little brother to live a lie. Fuck Itachi man..



Uk, it's really interesting u said tht and icould comment all day on tht but i will condense it so im sure my thoughts will come out jumbled. but that is something ive noticed but something i have overlooked. when it comes to fiction u seem to have this ability to ignore terrible things. In naruto, even the characters do this. i mean naruto is willing to forgive sasuke for the attrocious things he did. its quite disgusting. although itachi did have his reasons, it was kind of cringe-worthy and it still is. i mean even in real life im sure people wouldnt kill an entire clan to make a pre-umptive strike. the thing im sure ur referencing though is tht there are characters like obito who wanna kill everything but the diff between him and itachi is tht itachi was glorified by his actions. ultimately they werent really justified and even if the uchiha did take action, they wouldn't have won. i guess maybe he was trying to prevent the uchiha AND the hidden leaf people from dying. Idk, it's Ehhh to me.


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## Lucky7 (Oct 6, 2014)

The fact that we all have to realize is we can't fully judge or take sides because Kishimoto failed to actually go deeper with the Uchiha Massacre. The whole situation is _severely _ underdeveloped, which is weird considering its massive focus and plot relevance. Its so underdeveloped that we don't even know what specific issues or grievances they had. 

I mean, Sure we can make speculations about it being stated  Tobirama was distrustful of  Uchiha or how they live on the outskirts of the city, but even that is really vague. What specific discrimination or injustice were they facing? It seems that no one really had a problem with the Uchiha. If anything, they seem to be well-renowned and regarded, as evidenced by Sasuke's celebrity treatment even to the point of damn political leaders coming to the Chuunin Exams to see "the last Uchiha's" match, hell, it was the practically the main event. Things that could have been touched upon to give the whole "both sides are wrong" feeling I _think_ Kishi was going for are never given.We don't know if there were other children in the clan or not (though I find it unlikely there weren't). We don't get to see if there were any other Uchiha besides Itachi and Shisui who were against the rebellion in some form or fashion, even if they didn't want to speak out. I mean, you're telling me that absolutely everyone was for the takeover of the Leaf Village? So that old couple Sasuke used to talk to was in on it too? 

What was their plan anyway? To kill the elders and anyone who got in their way (which would be, y'know, _everyone_) and take over the village? To take the Hokage hostage and make demands? They couldn't possibly be so naive as to beleive that the villagers and other clans aren't going to rebel against them. We don't see Hiruzen in meetings attempting to work out a peaceful solution,  trying his damndest to prevent Danzou's alternative. We don't even see what it felt like for him to order a fourteen year-old boy to slaughter his family and clan.

So, my point is, either perspective is made on shaky basis because we barely have the details to even scratch the surface of the issue. Its really another show of Kishi's reluctance to taclkle anything that's not black and white, and his manga suffers as a result.


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## NeonLit (Oct 6, 2014)

It's a bit easy to get into a case of black and whites when it come's to Itachi and the murder of the Uchiha clan. 

On one hand, if he'd tried to defend the Uchiha clan, they would have risen up anyway, and most likely all been killed, and the children removed from their clan's history and put under even more systematic oppression from the other people of Konoha. Not to mention the fact that if he hadn't taken the mission on, Danzo would have tried to figure out another way to wipe out the Uchiha uprising, one that wouldn't have spared anyone. 

He could have taken the mission on and tried to get the Uchiha to flee, but that would have caused problems in itself, simply because he would have had to try and persuade the most stubborn of the Uchiha who wouldn't want to be forced out of the Hidden Village, simply because of their long standing place within the community.  Given his age at the time of the slaughter, he would simply not have had the ability to force the whole community to get out and get away from the wrath of the village.

So I'm assuming that he weighed up all of these options and thought, hey, if I kill everyone and spare my kid brother, then at least he'll survive our family and keep our blood alive. But see, there's a difference between plans and excecution, and we all know about the whole curse of hatred and how the Uchiha love more deeply than the others, so what happens to an Uchiha who is forced to kill all of the people he loves, and cares about most in the world? Something is going to snap, and he's not going to be able to maintain his composure, which is why I'm sure he cast the tsyuokomi upon Sasuke, as a way of taking out his frustration of hopelessness.

This is the main issue because Itachi is not flawless, but nor is he a completely terrible character. He, along with characters like Zabuza are byproducts of the the shinobi way, of young individuals being forced into a violent lifestyle, expected to kill others from such a young age. I mean, given the young age that Itachi joined the ANBU at, he sure saw so many deaths and was responsible for a great many of them, all whilst in the developmental stages. This is obviously going to have a great deal of impact on his mental health in later years, as evidenced by his great remorse and desperation to have Sasuke be strong enough to kill him.

Edit: Hah, the irony of the above post mentioning black and white's as a closing paragraph is awesome.


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## DavyChan (Oct 6, 2014)

Lucky7 said:


> The fact that we all have to realize is we can't fully judge or take sides because Kishimoto failed to actually go deeper with the Uchiha Massacre. The whole situation is _severely _ underdeveloped, which is weird considering its massive focus and plot relevance. Its so underdeveloped that we don't even know what specific issues or grievances they had.
> 
> I mean, Sure we can make speculations about it being stated  Tobirama was distrustful of  Uchiha or how they live on the outskirts of the city, but even that is really vague. What specific discrimination or injustice were they facing? It seems that no one really had a problem with the Uchiha. If anything, they seem to be well-renowned and regarded, as evidenced by Sasuke's celebrity treatment even to the point of damn political leaders coming to the Chuunin Exams to see "the last Uchiha's" match, hell, it was the practically the main event. Things that could have been touched upon to give the whole "both sides are wrong" feeling I _think_ Kishi was going for are never given.We don't know if there were other children in the clan or not (though I find it unlikely there weren't). We don't get to see if there were any other Uchiha besides Itachi and Shisui who were against the rebellion in some form or fashion, even if they didn't want to speak out. I mean, you're telling me that absolutely everyone was for the takeover of the Leaf Village? So that old couple Sasuke used to talk to was in on it too?
> 
> ...



Wow. this response was so well put together and well thought through that i read the entirety of it. Thanks for pointing that out. really nice input!! and it's so true. it really is unknown a lot of tht stuff and there were a lot of thing unaccounted for.


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## Ghost (Oct 6, 2014)

Flow said:


> It's like saying "There isn't any toilet paper in the Narutoverse since you don't really see it"
> 
> Come on now.


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## EJ (Oct 6, 2014)

Yes, and there are obviously shotguns in the Narutoverse as well. Good find. 



LesExit said:


> This picture is honestly what made me not like Itachi at all...
> like...goodness. He killed his own parents, it's not hard to believe he would've killed small children too. Itachi's "heroism" is so messed up to me



People jump back and fourth between Itachi not murdering any children, to "Obito probably killed the children", then to "Well, children are not the same in this universe as our own!" in order to help Itachi not seem that fucked up.



dpwater25 said:


> Uk, it's really interesting u said tht and icould comment all day on tht but i will condense it so im sure my thoughts will come out jumbled. but that is something ive noticed but something i have overlooked. when it comes to fiction u seem to have this ability to ignore terrible things. In naruto, even the characters do this. i mean naruto is willing to forgive sasuke for the attrocious things he did. its quite disgusting. although itachi did have his reasons, it was kind of cringe-worthy and it still is. i mean even in real life im sure people wouldnt kill an entire clan to make a pre-umptive strike. the thing im sure ur referencing though is tht there are characters like obito who wanna kill everything but the diff between him and itachi is tht itachi was glorified by his actions. ultimately they werent really justified and even if the uchiha did take action, they wouldn't have won. i guess maybe he was trying to prevent the uchiha AND the hidden leaf people from dying. Idk, it's Ehhh to me.





Lucky7 said:


> The fact that we all have to realize is we can't fully judge or take sides because Kishimoto failed to actually go deeper with the Uchiha Massacre. The whole situation is _severely _ underdeveloped, which is weird considering its massive focus and plot relevance. Its so underdeveloped that we don't even know what specific issues or grievances they had.
> 
> I mean, Sure we can make speculations about it being stated  Tobirama was distrustful of  Uchiha or how they live on the outskirts of the city, but even that is really vague. What specific discrimination or injustice were they facing? It seems that no one really had a problem with the Uchiha. If anything, they seem to be well-renowned and regarded, as evidenced by Sasuke's celebrity treatment even to the point of damn political leaders coming to the Chuunin Exams to see "the last Uchiha's" match, hell, it was the practically the main event. Things that could have been touched upon to give the whole "both sides are wrong" feeling I _think_ Kishi was going for are never given.We don't know if there were other children in the clan or not (though I find it unlikely there weren't). We don't get to see if there were any other Uchiha besides Itachi and Shisui who were against the rebellion in some form or fashion, even if they didn't want to speak out. I mean, you're telling me that absolutely everyone was for the takeover of the Leaf Village? So that old couple Sasuke used to talk to was in on it too?
> 
> ...



Thank you for these well thought out post, and I understand to a degree as to why people still empathize with what Itachi did. But I still stand by initial point that there was a different way Itachi could of gone about saving his clan and Konoha. He states this specifically in his own words, before he fades away and addresses the fact that he shouldn't had tried to handle everything by himself and used Sasuke as a means to get his clan to see things from a different angle.

Many people (die-hard crazed fans) ignore this, and don't want to accept that Itachi died _knowing _for a fact his plans were flawed.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Oct 6, 2014)

How is he terrible for seeing beyond the Selfish desires of his clan &  procuring the wellbeing of the Land Of Fire? Itachi is selfless & thinks only of the welfare of others. 3/4ths of the 4th Shinobi War was relinquished because of him if you think about it. If anything he's one of the best in the entire series. This must be a joke


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 6, 2014)

E-touch buttfucked OP


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## Rawri (Oct 6, 2014)

I don't see how being a mass murderer makes a character terrible. Not to say I agree with their actions, but other characters like Sasori and Orochimaru are batshit insane and they're still awesome.


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## Mikon (Oct 6, 2014)

I rarely post in this forum, but oh man, dat Itachi hate is so 2009/10...i mean, srsly?
ur reasoning is totally absurd and subjective 
What i mean is that i can see ur points, but your way of expressing your opinion is full of bullshit which is not even interesting to read anymore
Itachi is a terrible character just because he killed children?
sure, so every villian in fiction history is a terrible character too 
I know that you are talking mainly from the "Itachi is a hero" aspect, but one has to be dumb to not see his choices and understanding that his way of thinking was very natural
any logical person (or so i belive) would stop his friend from going batshit crazy and starting a revolution, don't you agree? and if there is nothing that you can do about it, you might even (yea, depents on the situation) even use force and such
If you are just going to qoute me and say the typical "Oh, you got an Itachi signature so you must be a blind fanboy" then you can move on with your life and enjoy the hate ride


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## Demetrius (Oct 6, 2014)

itachi was and always will be a dull character tho


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## Pocalypse (Oct 6, 2014)

Trinity said:


> itachi was and always will be a dull character tho



Dull is hardly the word. If anything he was one of the most interesting characters in the manga. A bit similar to Gin from Bleach with the mystery (Gin > Itachi though).

What I loved the most about Itachi was that he did everything from the shadows, it was literally his character. Even when he stopped Edo Tensei, no one knew wtf was going on in the background. The only problem is Kishi spent a bit too much on Itachi and put him on a really high pedestal.


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## EJ (Oct 6, 2014)

Mikon said:


> I rarely post in this forum, but oh man, dat Itachi hate is so 2009/10...i mean, srsly?





yaaah

liek, that itachiz hatin shit is so oldschool, i need to get hip and fresh in order to fit in. screw having my own opinion, ya knowsszz


Trinity said:


> itachi was and always will be a dull character tho



He had potential to be a very unique and controversial character, but the author pulled the plug on this.


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## Bloo (Oct 6, 2014)

Flow said:


> He had potential to be a very unique and *controversial* character, but the author pulled the plug on this.


Yeah, it's not like Itachi isn't the most controversial character of the manga or anything as he is now.


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## Selva (Oct 6, 2014)

He's a shitty character. He was alright when he was shown as an evil brother who just wanted to test his powers. It all turned to shit when Kishi kept wanking him and his terrible ideals and his terrible deeds by trying to paint him as the poor misunderstood guy who only wanted to help his village.


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Flow said:


> I still can't wrap my head around the fact that the creator of this godforsaken manga/anime tried to make genocide a grey area.
> 
> This guy even killed babies and children and their sleep and committed mass murder and wanted his little brother to live a lie. Fuck Itachi man..




Agree

After Itachi did all that, Kishi tried to make us feel bad for Itachi. Like wtf you mean you had to do it ?


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> There is not a single shred of evidence that Itachi killed any babies or children.



Negligence. 

Your telling me that out of a WHOLE clan of people, they held no new childern, babies, young kids etc ? That's just absurd, we can easily assume that he must have had also killed the young.


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## Zyrax (Oct 6, 2014)

Selva said:


> He's a shitty character. He was alright when he was shown as an evil brother who just wanted to test his powers. It all turned to shit when Kishi kept wanking him and his terrible ideals and his terrible deeds by trying to paint him as the poor misunderstood guy who only wanted to help his village.


I just want to know
Why doesn't Kishi just stick to Villains being Ninjas rather than well intentioned wannabes, Its pretty clear that He doesn't know how to write Grey areas so why does he try? Ironicly Zabuza and Haku who were hardly even relevant were more sympathetic than any Tragic villain in part 2 except for Sasori. The whole Moon Plan was a trainwreck  and Nagato was decent until he was ruined by that TNJ and dat book.

Truth be told I would rather have had the manga about Missions, Exploring the other Villages(The Mist had potential, There should have been an arc about it), Meeting the Jins rather than the whole Politics and Cycle of Hatred Stuff that we have now.


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## EJ (Oct 6, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Negligence.
> 
> Your telling me that out of a WHOLE clan of people, they held no new childern, babies, young kids etc ? That's just absurd, we can easily assume that he must have had also killed the young.



"NO UCHIHA CHILDREN WERE SHOWN SO THAT OBVIOUSLY MEANS THERE WEREN'T ANY...MINUS THE FACT THAT ITACHI, SHISUI, SASUKE, AND ITACHI'S LOVER WERE ALL KIDS BUT THATS'S BESIDES THE POINT"


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Flow said:


> "NO UCHIHA CHILDREN WERE SHOWN SO THAT OBVIOUSLY MEANS THERE WEREN'T ANY...MINUS THE FACT THAT ITACHI, SHISUI, SASUKE, AND ITACHI'S LOVER WERE ALL KIDS BUT THATS'S BESIDES THE POINT"




I love the sarcasm. But apparently people really believe that a clan produced no new children or kids at all. They must have decided not to further produce offspring's lmao


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## UchihaJaime (Oct 7, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Yeah, it's not like Itachi isn't the most controversial character of the manga or anything as he is now.



No. Itachi is controversial among the fans because some deconstruct ideas that Kishimoto neglected and didn't deconstruct himself. In-universe Itachi receives nothing but praise with this horrible actions seemingly being swept under the rug because Kishimoto wants us to believe Itachi is the best. He wants us to not think about what he just showed us and just accept his flawed idea. That portrayal of the characters is where Kishimoto failed.


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## Deana (Oct 7, 2014)

Itachi and Madara are the best Uchia's out there.


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## Blu-ray (Oct 7, 2014)

Are people really trying to argue the Uchiha had no other children? What, did the lot of them stop fucking for 7-8 years? In that case why did Itachi bother killing them? They were doing a bang up job ending themselves on their own apparently.

That aside, there a legitimate reasons to consider Itachi a terrible character.

He mentally and emotionally tortured Sasuke yet expected him to turn out well adjusted. He intended to have him kill his friend, leading him to be a murderer and traitor, but expected this to turn him into a hero for Konoha. None of that makes any sense.

Itachi was the liaison between Konoha and the Uchiha. He knew the sole reason they were being ill treated was because of suspicion in their role in the Kyuubi attack. *He knew* Tobi was behind it. He reported directly to the chief government officials. Instead of pointing out the real perpetrator, he collaborated with said perp to end his own innocent family. Apparently for the greater good. This is what the reveal did. Turn him into an illogical mess, just like everyone currently relevant.

Killing the Uchiha or children didn't make him a shitty character, but that's because he was supposed to be a villain back then. He was reviled for the act. Now he's a hero and lauded for it.

The negative effect he has on other characters and the fact that he's a mary sue are merely more nails in the coffin.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## EJ (Oct 7, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Are people really trying to argue the Uchiha had no other children? What, did the lot of them stop fucking for 7-8 years? In that case why did Itachi bother killing them? They were doing a bang up job ending themselves on their own apparently.
> 
> That aside, there a legitimate reasons to consider Itachi a terrible character.
> 
> ...



OH MY GOD

THIS SO MUCH


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## Rain (Oct 8, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> That aside, there a legitimate reasons to consider Itachi a terrible character.
> 
> He mentally and emotionally tortured Sasuke yet expected him to turn out well adjusted. He intended to have him kill his friend, leading him to be a murderer and traitor, but expected this to turn him into a hero for Konoha. None of that makes any sense.
> 
> ...



Itachi never intended for Sasuke to live a happy life like other children, he knew that was absolutely impossible after the massacre. Priority was to make Sasuke strong, so that he can take care of himself even after Itachi. He made Sasuke focus all his hatred on him, the man who ruined his life. 

Did Sasuke try to kill Naruto while they were in the village? Nope, he explicitly stated he won't do it his brother's way. Itachi knew Sasuke better than even the readers. Sasuke always wanted to be better than Itachi, to surpass him, so why would he follow his footsteps?

He couldn't prove Madara's existence to Hokage. Why would anyone believe Itachi (an Uchiha) that the guy who was supposed to be dead for almost a century is somehow magically still alive and behind the Kyuubi incident and not the Uchiha clan who by the way, were the only ones that didn't defend the village that night?

Itachi is a masterpiece, you just have to read some things between the lines.


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## Blu-ray (Oct 9, 2014)

Rain said:


> Itachi never intended for Sasuke to live a happy life like other children, he knew that was absolutely impossible after the massacre. Priority was to make Sasuke strong, so that he can take care of himself even after Itachi. He made Sasuke focus all his hatred on him, the man who ruined his life.



Really? It was impossible? Then why was Sasuke getting happy and forgetting about revenge? Why did he tell Naruto he thought about giving it up and staying in Konoha?



> Did Sasuke try to kill Naruto while they were in the village? Nope, he explicitly stated he won't do it his brother's way. Itachi knew Sasuke better than even the readers. Sasuke always wanted to be better than Itachi, to surpass him, so why would he follow his footsteps?







> He couldn't prove Madara's existence to Hokage. Why would anyone believe Itachi (an Uchiha) that the guy who was supposed to be dead for almost a century is somehow magically still alive and behind the Kyuubi incident and not the Uchiha clan who by the way, were the only ones that didn't defend the village that night?
> 
> Itachi is a masterpiece, you just have to read some things between the lines.



What? It's canon Danzo believed Madara was alive, well, and behind Akatsuki because of Itachi's intel, and its canon Danzo worked with Tobi in the massacre, to the point Tobi said "long time no see Danzo!"

It is also canon that Itachi was the sole Uchiha they trusted. He was their spy in the Akatsuki, the Uchiha, and the only one the trusted with the massacre.

It's because I read between the lines he comes off as awful. On the the surface, he's a loving older brother who made a sacrifice because he had no choice, and sacrificed everything for his brother, and I can't deny he's one of my favorites because of this.

But look deeper however, and you'll see that they way he went about doing so was utterly nonsensical and utterly abhorrent.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Deleted member 198194 (Oct 9, 2014)

yeah i never bought the machavellian "ends justify the means" excuse for the uchiha genocide 

quite a retarded plot device


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## Larcher (Oct 9, 2014)

Itachi is a great character. His development was all round superb. From the get go, he had a compelling badass mystery vibe to him. Then went on to be one of the more emotional if characters which is even better, always full of surprises and creating suspense whenever he's on screen. His character is also instrumental to the plot with Sasuke and whatnot. Plus, it's hilarious how Kishimoto wanks him to ridiculas proportions.


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## Larcher (Oct 9, 2014)

It maybe wasn't the right choice, but regardless it was very admirable. What he done was entirely selfless and the degree of mental fatigue is super-human. It's not like the Uchiha Clan didn't put it in themselves, anyway. They put the entire village in danger.


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## Zyrax (Oct 9, 2014)

Himalarcher said:


> It maybe wasn't the right choice, but regardless it was very admirable. What he done was entirely selfless and the degree of mental fatigue is super-human. It's not like the Uchiha Clan didn't put it in themselves, anyway. They put the entire village in danger.


And Danzou and The Elders were the ones who forced  the Clan to attack them. If they spended 50 years serving the Village and Yet The elders still couldn't trust them then something needed to be done. Look at all the bullied kids who end up shooting up there schools, Mistreat someone for a long time and they will end up going full retard on you


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## Yagami1211 (Oct 9, 2014)

The raw agree wit the fact that Sasuke was the only one young enough not to know about the coup d'?tat. Fact


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## Rain (Oct 9, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Really? It was impossible? Then why was Sasuke getting happy and forgetting about revenge? Why did he tell Naruto he thought about giving it up and staying in Konoha?



Do you honestly believe Sasuke would live a happy life in Konoha while the man who killed his entire clan in front of his eyes is roaming free?


Exactly what i'm talking about. Sasuke could've killed him right there. He didn't because that would mean he is becoming just like Itachi.



> What? It's canon Danzo believed Madara was alive, well, and behind Akatsuki because of Itachi's intel, and its canon Danzo worked with Tobi in the massacre, to the point Tobi said "long time no see Danzo!"



The fact that Danzo knew and worked with Tobi and didn't tell anyone only means Itachi's accusations against Masked Man would be completely useless.

Also do you not realize what kind of man Danzo was? He wanted to exterminate every single Uchiha, but couldn't do so without getting Konoha bloody so he settled for sparing Sasuke. Hell, he would've killed Sasuke after Sarutobi's death, if Itachi didn't show up and reminded him he's still alive.



> It is also canon that Itachi was the sole Uchiha they trusted. He was their spy in the Akatsuki, the Uchiha, and the only one the trusted with the massacre.



Would they trust him if he said a legendary figure who died a century ago (without providing any proof whatsoever) is responsible for Nine-Tails attack and not his clansmen who are the only ones capable of controlling the Kyuubi? And lets not forget they were already on bad terms with the government prior to the attack. Spy or not, Uchiha is an Uchiha.



> It's because I read between the lines he comes off as awful. On the the surface, he's a loving older brother who made a sacrifice because he had no choice, and sacrificed everything for his brother, and I can't deny he's one of my favorites because of this.
> 
> But look deeper however, and you'll see that they way he went about doing so was utterly nonsensical and utterly abhorrent.



Look even deeper.


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## P3IN (Oct 9, 2014)

He's an alright character. But lel his fans


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## Punished Pathos (Oct 10, 2014)

Himalarcher said:


> It maybe wasn't the right choice, but regardless it was very admirable. What he done was entirely selfless and the degree of mental fatigue is super-human. It's not like the Uchiha Clan didn't put it in themselves, anyway. They put the entire village in danger.



You're all over Itachi's knob


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## Bonly (Oct 10, 2014)

I don't think committing atrocious acts alone would make him a bad character though I personally like Itachi as you could prolly guess and I find him to be a decent character.


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## Punished Pathos (Oct 10, 2014)

Killing your own mother and father.
Practically in front of your own brother.
Telling your brother to hate you for it.
Taunting him and twisting his reality.
And after he "kills" you, you want him to return 
to normal due to a fucking hax genjutsu thats rigged
to affect him... 

I'm not surprised that so many of you like that and Itachi.
The Naruto fandom is filled with preposterous idiots.

Did I mention that Itachi chose to side with the team that would likely never
give him proper respect nor treatment.
Itachi was just a good tool to them.
One that doesn't care about filling his hands with the blood of his own kin.
Itachi should have sided with his family, and not their oppressors.


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## Yagami1211 (Oct 10, 2014)

Punished Pathos said:


> Killing your own mother and father.
> Practically in front of your own brother.
> Telling your brother to hate you for it.
> Taunting him and twisting his reality.
> ...



Being evil doesn't make a character terrible.


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## Punished Pathos (Oct 10, 2014)

Yagami1211 said:


> Being evil doesn't make a character terrible.



Duh...
Itachi is an idiot.
His "evil" acts were committed out of his stupidity.
Blind loyalty to his Clan's opposition.
Itachi was too selfless.
Selfless to the wrong group of people.
Even when he was Edo'd he resisted to tell Sasuke the "truth"

Itachi is stupid


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## Yagami1211 (Oct 10, 2014)

Punished Pathos said:


> Duh...
> Itachi is an idiot.
> His "evil" acts were committed out of his stupidity.
> Blind loyalty to his Clan's opposition.
> ...



Oh, okay then. 

Fine.


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## capriixuda (Oct 10, 2014)

Punished Pathos said:


> Killing your own mother and father.
> Practically in front of your own brother.
> *Telling your brother to hate you for it.
> Taunting him and twisting his reality.*
> ...



I agree to the bolded. Itachi, faced with the inevitability of his clan's downfall, chose the role of scapegoat in hopes of avoiding an even greater catastrophe, but one should question the excessiveness of his abuse used against Sasuke. Was it necessary? 

Itachi became the focal point by which Sasuke would base all of his life's future decisions. Had it not been for Itachi's constant gaslighting and malicious treatment, I'm sure that Sasuke would have turned out different or just less strung-out on revenge.


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## Blu-ray (Oct 10, 2014)

Rain said:


> Do you honestly believe Sasuke would live a happy life in Konoha while the man who killed his entire clan in front of his eyes is roaming free?



Not only did Sasuke say as much, but whether or not he would be happy isn't even an issue. He would be better off than the hell Itachi planned for him. Itachi roaming free wouldn't even be an issue if he just let Sasuke kill him when they met.



> *Exactly what i'm talking about.* Sasuke could've killed him right there. He didn't because that would mean he is becoming just like Itachi.



Too bad it's the exact opposite of what you're talking about.




Read every single page in both chapters. Sasuke 100% intended to kill Naruto, aimed at his heart, and missed by a few inches only because Naruto managed to divert Sasuke's hand at the last second thanks to some Kyuubi chakra. Naruto himself confirms his intent was real.



> *The fact that Danzo knew and worked with Tobi and didn't tell anyone* only means Itachi's accusations against Masked Man would be completely useless.



Let's not bring fanon into this. Itachi was the one who found Tobi and cut a deal with him to help with the massacre to begin with. Danzo only knew of him to begin with because of that. They didn't have some sort of secret collaboration.



> Also do you not realize what kind of man Danzo was? He wanted to exterminate every single Uchiha, but couldn't do so without getting Konoha bloody so he settled for sparing Sasuke. Hell, he would've killed Sasuke after Sarutobi's death, if Itachi didn't show up and reminded him he's still alive.



Danzo would have no legitimate reason to begin with if Itachi told him and the rest of the elders Tobi was behind the attack. The Uchiha had been suspect because of said attack, and they in turn plotted a coup because of that suspicion and all ill treatment that came with it.



> Would they trust him if he said a legendary figure who died a century ago (without providing any proof whatsoever) is responsible for Nine-Tails attack and not his clansmen who are the only ones capable of controlling the Kyuubi? And lets not forget they were already on bad terms with the government prior to the attack. Spy or not, Uchiha is an Uchiha.
> 
> 
> 
> Look even deeper.



Of course they would, and it's canon they did. I even said this in my last post Did you not read the Kage Summit? Danzo proclaimed that the one behind the Akatsuki was Madara Uchiha, based on the intel he got from Itachi.

Hilariously, the intel was wrong as it was Obito, not Madara, yet they trusted Itachi anyway.


----------



## Rain (Oct 11, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Not only did Sasuke say as much, but whether or not he would be happy isn't even an issue. He would be better off than the hell Itachi planned for him. Itachi roaming free wouldn't even be an issue if he just let Sasuke kill him when they met.



There's a chance Sasuke would be dead if Itachi didn't make him powerful. He was sick and knew he will die soon, so he had to make sure Sasuke is powerful enough to protect himself after he's gone.



> Too bad it's the exact opposite of what you're talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can see he was under the influence of cursed seal. That was beyond Itachi's control. At the end of that fight he could've finished off Naruto but didn't because he wanted to surpass Itachi his own way. He even said so. Why are we discussing manga facts?



> Let's not bring fanon into this. Itachi was the one who found Tobi and cut a deal with him to help with the massacre to begin with. Danzo only knew of him to begin with because of that. They didn't have some sort of secret collaboration.



We don't know exactly when Danzo and Tobi met.



> Danzo would have no legitimate reason to begin with if Itachi told him and the rest of the elders Tobi was behind the attack. The Uchiha had been suspect because of said attack, and they in turn plotted a coup because of that suspicion and all ill treatment that came with it.



You don't think Itachi blaming some guy who's supposed to be dead for 100 years would seem to Danzo and the Elders as an attempt to free Uchiha clan of guilt.



> Of course they would, and it's canon they did. I even said this in my last post Did you not read the Kage Summit? Danzo proclaimed that the one behind the Akatsuki was Madara Uchiha, based on the intel he got from Itachi.



They believed him after he proved his loyalty by massacring the Uchihas. If he said it before, it would've been seen as an attempt to free Uchiha clan of guilt.



> Hilariously, the intel was wrong as it was Obito, not Madara, yet they trusted Itachi anyway.



Irrelevant.


----------



## Midaru (Oct 11, 2014)

night gai said:


> i think he had the potential to be a great character if kishi played his cards a little better.



This.


----------



## Jon Moxley (Oct 11, 2014)

Midaru said:


> This.



double This


----------



## Midaru (Oct 11, 2014)

Dean Ambrose said:


> double This



Oh you...


----------



## Jon Moxley (Oct 11, 2014)

Midaru said:


> Oh you...



              .


----------



## Tangle (Oct 11, 2014)

Itachi was my fav character until it turned out that he was actually good ( I had suspected this shit to happen tho).  worst day of my life.


----------



## Jon Moxley (Oct 11, 2014)

yeah that was stupid, he should have at least been an anti-hero


----------



## Shinobu (Oct 12, 2014)

Punished Pathos said:


> Itachi should have sided with his family, and not their oppressors.




Agree with how he treated on Sasuke - that was absolutely not necessary, but what kind of choice is that? To stay with his family, carry out a coup d'etat, overthrow or even kill the elders and Hiruzen, provoking a civil war with the risk of becoming a war between the villages? More innocent people would have been killed.

He never had a good choice, he just took the one which seemed safer for his younger brother. He never wanted to be a hero, Fugaku's and Hiruzen's pride and the elders' stubbornness left him no other choice.

I'm not saying, what he did was good or right, and I never saw him as a "paragon ninja" how the manga tries to, but the circumstances drove him to an understandable act.


----------



## Blu-ray (Oct 12, 2014)

Rain said:


> There's a chance Sasuke would be dead if Itachi didn't make him powerful. He was sick and knew he will die soon, so he had to make sure Sasuke is powerful enough to protect himself after he's gone.



He's a ninja. Of course the chance would have been there. Itachi only increased those chances on top of making him miserable. If it wasn't for the sound 4 getting slowed down, Sasuke would have become Orochimaru's body and died before we even got a part II. All thanks to Itachi's machinations. Hell the sound 4 actually did kill him, if only temporarily.



> You can see he was under the influence of cursed seal. That was beyond Itachi's control. At the end of that fight he could've finished off Naruto but didn't because he wanted to surpass Itachi his own way. He even said so. Why are we discussing manga facts?



The cursed seal does not influence free will, and Sasuke activated the seal willingly making any influence on himself intentional. The fact is Sasuke tried to kill Naruto and almost succeeded due to Itachi's bullshit, and only failed because an unknown power saved Naruto at the last second.

If you're defending Sasuke's statement because you believe its some sort of reverse psychology... Makes no sense because Sasuke wouldn't have thought of killing any friend to begin with. Sasuke again tried to kill Naruto at the start of part 2, and this time with no CS influence, making what he said at VOTE irrelevant anyway.



> We don't know exactly when Danzo and Tobi met.



Itachi was the one who found Tobi and contracted him for help in the massacre. Danzo was the one that spearheaded that mission. Any meeting or collaboration outside of that wasn't so much as hinted. So we can indeed drop it and any foolishness of them working together in secret. 



> You don't think Itachi blaming some guy who's supposed to be dead for 100 years *would seem to Danzo and the Elders as an attempt to free Uchiha clan of guilt.*



What any of us think is irrelevant. The fact is Itachi did exactly this and they believed him without question even when the info was actually false. Bold is merely your presumption.



> They believed him after he proved his loyalty by massacring the Uchihas. *If he said it before, it would've been seen as an attempt to free Uchiha clan of guilt.*



It's canon fact that they trusted him before this. They trusted him to spy on his own clan, trusted the intel he gave them about the Uchiha, and trusted him to carry out the massacre. Bold is once again mere presumption.



> Irrelevant.



Entirely relevant. It proves your argument of them not trusting him wrong, because they trusted Itachi even when he was wrong.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 12, 2014)

Dean Ambrose said:


> yeah that was stupid, he should have at least been an anti-hero



you mean anti-villain.


----------



## Nic (Oct 12, 2014)

His character made no sense.  He was no hero, dude killed his own mother, his own girlfriend/boyfriend.


----------



## Jon Moxley (Oct 12, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> you mean anti-villain.



isn't it the same thing?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 12, 2014)

Dean Ambrose said:


> isn't it the same thing?



No. An anti-hero is generally someone that acts or has mannerisms that are not befitting a typical hero, but ultimately does heroic things. An anti-villain has mannerisms and behavior not typical of a villain, but ultimately does villainous things.


----------



## Tainted Sun (Oct 12, 2014)

Flow said:


> This guy even killed babies and children.



This was never stated, stop making stuff up.


----------



## Tainted Sun (Oct 12, 2014)

For all you know, it was Obito who killed the children and babies.


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## EJ (Oct 12, 2014)

Even if what you're saying is somehow true, he still asked for assistance in killing kids and babies. It doesn't make him "any better"

You're basically saying this:

"You don't know if he really killed them! For all you know, all he did was ask Obito to kill the children and babies for him so he wouldn't have to!"


----------



## Kusa (Oct 12, 2014)

The 'he killed children' argument is so overused and stupid.

If you want to prove itachi is evil for killing, then just say he is evil for killing people. Why is it even needed to claim, that he killed children ? I am sure, there were also adults who were innocent and did not agree with the plans of the Uchihas, and those adults might have been not that much older than itachi himself, who was only 13 and therefore also too fucking young to die. Really, discussing  whether he killed children or not is so pointless, since it only results to itachi fans claiming there is no proof for it and itachi haters claiming, there had to be more children in a clan. A pointless cirlce.

I can't prove anything, but it would not suprise if he really did kill children as well.

As for the topic, i will try to answer it when i find enough time.


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## Tainted Sun (Oct 12, 2014)

Flow said:


> Even if what you're saying is somehow true, he still asked for assistance in killing kids and babies. It doesn't make him "any better"
> 
> You're basically saying this:
> 
> "You don't know if he really killed them! For all you know, all he did was ask Obito to kill the children and babies for him so he wouldn't have to!"



No, what I am saying is you have no proof that Itachi killed children and babies even though that it was what you claimed, so either post proof or concede this debate, simple as that.

Negging me won't change the fact that you have no proof for your claims.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 12, 2014)

Flow said:


> Even if what you're saying is somehow true, he still asked for assistance in killing kids and babies. It doesn't make him "any better"
> 
> You're basically saying this:
> 
> "You don't know if he really killed them! For all you know, all he did was ask Obito to kill the children and babies for him so he wouldn't have to!"



You have nothing to provide to make your case. Perhaps Kishi just failed to elaborate on exactly what kids Itachi did kill, but as far as has been shown the only child in the clan was Sasuke. If you wanna dispute that you have to provide evidence for it, you don't have that.


----------



## Itachі (Oct 12, 2014)

There were most likely children in the clan, but it hasn't been shown. We can't assume that Sasuke's the only child but we can't assume that there were children either. Even then, the children might have been involved in the Coup. Itachi was in ANBU and wasn't he like 13 when he slaughtered the clan? Although, the Uchiha might not have involved the other children in their plan to the extent that they included Itachi in it.


----------



## ShadowFox88 (Oct 12, 2014)

Basically in Naruto, if there's no evidence of something, we have to assume there wasn't any children.


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## EJ (Oct 12, 2014)

Tainted Sun said:


> No, what I am saying is you have no proof that Itachi killed children and babies even though that it was what you claimed, so either post proof or concede this debate, simple as that.
> 
> Negging me won't change the fact that you have no proof for your claims.





Due to how you worded both your post, it pointed that is what you were trying to imply. I negged yuu since it was presumably a dumb point.

Read below/


Seto Kaiba said:


> You have nothing to provide to make your case. Perhaps Kishi just failed to elaborate on exactly what kids Itachi did kill, but as far as has been shown the only child in the clan was Sasuke. If you wanna dispute that you have to provide evidence for it, you don't have that.



You'd be basically saying "The Uchiha clan was a clan that only had adults within their numbers and Sasuke was the only "child"  Which still isn't true due to Shisui's and Itachi's age. We can assume Itachi's lover also wasn't a kid. 

You would also be accepting a notion that the Uchiha decided they could pull off a coup with extreme low numbers. It wouldn't make sense for there to be like 50 adults, then they assuming would stop producing kids for a significant amount of time which wouldn't make sense considering this is a clan that not only is prideful and wants to continue their legacy, but was as prideful as the Uchiha clan. 

You would also be discounting the fact that not just Danzo had eyes on his arms, but Obito gained many eyes out of the massacre in a lab.




That picture of the police force, they not only made up part of Konoha's shinobi force but also part of the police force as well. It's just dumb to think, "Sasuke was the only kid inside the clan" 

The massacre was handled extremely poorly (information as to why and who and what) and we were never even given an exact estimate on how many Uchiha died, and if they were even all in the village at that point.


----------



## EJ (Oct 12, 2014)

To just counter this in simpler terms and not have you guys read speculation that can be regarded as fact for good reasons.

Is it safe to say the two elder Uchihas that Sasuke sees and speaks to as a kid were the only two elders that weren't ninjas since "We didn't see any more?" Do you see how silly that is? Now do you see how silly it is to think Sasuke, Shisui, and Itachi were the only kids?


----------



## Itachі (Oct 12, 2014)

Flow, what are you trying to get at when you mentioned the eyes that Danzo and Obito had? I very much doubt that enough Uchiha children would have activated Sharingan to make a significant difference to the number of eyes they had.


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## EJ (Oct 12, 2014)

Hmm, with that point I may have to concede. I looked up to see the ages of which most Uchiha obtained Sharingan and couldn't find anything. I saw quotes of people saying "Most barely unlock 2" but I want to see that in an actual manga panel. Many of them have had it due to stress, but that still doesn't take away from the fact kids could unlock Sharingan.

Itachi unlocking his was a huge idea or is it just singled out as a coincidence/


----------



## Itachі (Oct 12, 2014)

Well, it wasn't shown why or when Itachi unlocked it but Sasuke unlocked Sharingan when Itachi slaughtered the clan so around 8 or so. Obito unlocked it when he was 12/13 and the same for Madara, I think. Some children may have unlocked their Sharingan in battle though, it's very possible.


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## Shinobu (Oct 13, 2014)

Maybe... just maybe.... he would have spared more children (people) if Obito wasn't there?

But this could have created even more problems and hatred?


----------



## Rain (Oct 13, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> He's a ninja. Of course the chance would have been there. Itachi only increased those chances on top of making him miserable. If it wasn't for the sound 4 getting slowed down, Sasuke would have become Orochimaru's body and died before we even got a part II. All thanks to Itachi's machinations. Hell the sound 4 actually did kill him, if only temporarily.



I mean that he would've been killed by Danzo especially since the latter knew Tobi was still around and could tell Sasuke the truth, pushing him to the road of revenge. 

It was a really complicated game between Danzo, Tobi and Itachi where only the latter wanted good for Sasuke, but he was ill and knew he was going to die soon so he had to make Sasuke strong quickly and that was possible only through harsh methods.



> The cursed seal does not influence free will, and Sasuke activated the seal willingly making any influence on himself intentional. The fact is Sasuke tried to kill Naruto and almost succeeded due to Itachi's bullshit, and only failed because an unknown power saved Naruto at the last second.
> 
> If you're defending Sasuke's statement because you believe its some sort of reverse psychology... Makes no sense because Sasuke wouldn't have thought of killing any friend to begin with. Sasuke again tried to kill Naruto at the start of part 2, and this time with no CS influence, making what he said at VOTE irrelevant anyway.



We know CS corrupts and corrodes mind of it's user.

I thought many times of killing people, but that doesn't mean i'm going to do it. 

3 years later Sasuke became a completely different person due to Orochimaru, a factor Itachi didn't take into account because he trusted Konoha shinobi to protect Sasuke. They failed.



> Itachi was the one who found Tobi and contracted him for help in the massacre. Danzo was the one that spearheaded that mission. Any meeting or collaboration outside of that wasn't so much as hinted. So we can indeed drop it and any foolishness of them working together in secret.



Ok.



> What any of us think is irrelevant. The fact is Itachi did exactly this and they believed him without question even when the info was actually false. Bold is merely your presumption.



Bold is common sense. You don't need everything served on a silver platter. Just because something isn't explicitely written in the manga doesn't mean we can't connect the dots and draw a conclusion.



> It's canon fact that they trusted him before this. They trusted him to spy on his own clan, trusted the intel he gave them about the Uchiha, and trusted him to carry out the massacre. Bold is once again mere presumption.



The fact that Danzo wasn't sure which side Itachi will take means they didn't trust him completely.



> Entirely relevant. It proves your argument of them not trusting him wrong, because they trusted Itachi even when he was wrong.



He had no reason to lie after the massacre and he proved he was Konoha's Uchiha Itachi.


----------



## Tainted Sun (Oct 13, 2014)

Flow said:


> Due to how you worded both your post, it pointed that is what you were trying to imply. I negged yuu since it was presumably a dumb point.
> 
> Read below/



You don't seem to understand how debating works, so allow me to educate you.

When you make a claim, you have to prove said claim, if you cannot prove it, you lose said debate.

So either prove that Itachi killed children or concession accepted.


----------



## EJ (Oct 13, 2014)

Flow said:


> Due to how you worded both your post, it pointed that is what you were trying to imply. I negged yuu since it was presumably a dumb point.
> 
> Read below/
> 
> ...





Flow said:


> Hmm, with that point I may have to concede. I looked up to see the ages of which most Uchiha obtained Sharingan and couldn't find anything. I saw quotes of people saying "Most barely unlock 2" but I want to see that in an actual manga panel. Many of them have had it due to stress, but that still doesn't take away from the fact kids could unlock Sharingan.
> 
> Itachi unlocking his was a huge idea or is it just singled out as a coincidence/



Dispute this, and don't try the "W-Well, it's not shown so.."

So is it safe to assume that the elders were the "Only elders who weren't ninjas that were killed"? You know, since we weren't shown any other elders that weren't ninjas, they were obviously the only two. These arguments to defend him Itachi are getting ridiculous. 

Turn around and say "So you can't prove it?" when it's a given fact that there were children in the clan, and he advocated killing them off as well and gave the opportunity for someone to kill them and didn't save them while he knew what was going on. He took a part in it as well.


----------



## Capt. Autismo (Oct 13, 2014)

But that is what made him a badass.


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## Tainted Sun (Oct 16, 2014)

Flow said:


> Dispute this, and don't try the "W-Well, it's not shown so.."
> 
> So is it safe to assume that the elders were the "Only elders who weren't ninjas that were killed"? You know, since we weren't shown any other elders that weren't ninjas, they were obviously the only two. These arguments to defend him Itachi are getting ridiculous.
> 
> Turn around and say "So you can't prove it?" when it's a given fact that there were children in the clan, and he advocated killing them off as well and gave the opportunity for someone to kill them and didn't save them while he knew what was going on. He took a part in it as well.




I don't have to dispute anything because I never once made a claim.

All I'm asking is for you to simply prove your claim.

I never once said that there were not other children in the clan besides Sasuke, all I asked was some proof that Itachi killed one of them, and yet for some reason you seem to not be providing the proof even though you claimed that Itachi did kill children.


----------



## Almesiva Moonshadow (Oct 16, 2014)

*Mate, they were all terrible characters.

No exceptions.*


----------



## Jυstin (Oct 17, 2014)

Itachi was actually one of the more interesting and non two dimensional characters out of tons of shitty ones Kishimoto wrote. As a guy who's not known for writing good character development, Itachi stood out. His words and actions always left people thinking and it was hard to pinpoint just to what ends he was doing everything he did. 

The fact that so many people suspected Itachi had some deep underlying motives or that he wasn't truly an evil tried-and-true Akatsuki member means there were signs even way back. When he appeared, shit went down. Pretty much everything he said had a profound weight to it. He was one of those characters who knew everything and revealed nothing. It left many readers wanting to know more. His aura alone gave a serious and tense atmosphere. He commended respect from even the strongest of characters, and showed us just why on several occasions. He wasn't nearly as easy to figure out as most other characters were. Kishimoto put some care into Itachi's development. Characters like Sakura and Tenten are so badly written or developed that it should be considered a crime.

And don't tell me that prophecy bullshit or repetitive speeches didn't make Naruto a more insufferable and dull character.

Not that I care whether or not he killed children, but from my understanding the manga said something along the lines of Sasuke being the only one who was too young to know about the coup.

Zabuza (and pretty much every villain in Naruto) tried to kill kids, don'tchyaknow? Or have you forgotten the main characters were, and still are, all kids?


----------



## Taijukage (Oct 17, 2014)

if anyones interested, im making a video on why itachi was at worst, an evil scumbag and at best, a very twisted anti villain.


----------



## Whitebeard (Oct 17, 2014)

Itachi is shit.


----------



## EJ (Oct 17, 2014)

Tainted Sun said:


> I don't have to dispute anything because I never once made a claim.



I answered your question and what you were trying to imply. Now you're trying to back-pedal. 

So I'm going to ask you again,

Is it safe to assume that there were no elders in the Uchiha that weren't ninjas besides the ones that Sasuke talked to? You know, since those were the only ones that were seen?



> I never once said that there were not other children in the clan besides Sasuke, all I asked was some proof that Itachi killed one of them, and yet for some reason you seem to not be providing the proof even though you claimed that Itachi did kill children.



Whether he 'killed them' or not is beyond your question. If he knew there were children in the clan and agreed to kill the clan with Obito then he gave the ok to do it. That's what you're not understanding but keep (for some odd reason) asking the exact same questions over again playing up a silly argument. 

He played a part into causing the deaths of other Uchihas and killed other members. This "Well, we didn't SEE him kill any children so that means.." is a silly argument.


----------



## Jυstin (Oct 17, 2014)

The difference between Itachi and other characters in Naruto is that we don't see him killing any children or trying to, and people call him a terrible person for the mere thought of him doing it.

While on the same coin, those people are fans of other characters who we have _seen_ kill children, heard that they did, or at least tried to. The main cast of Naruto mostly consists of kids, after all.

And as I believe was said, the manga says something along the lines of Sasuke being the only one who was too young to be in on the mutiny.


----------



## Shinobu (Oct 17, 2014)

Flow said:


> I answered your question and what you were trying to imply. Now you're trying to back-pedal.
> 
> So I'm going to ask you again,
> 
> Is it safe to assume that there were no elders in the Uchiha that weren't ninjas besides the ones that Sasuke talked to? You know, since those were the only ones that were seen?




I think it's kinda pointless to discuss this, 'cause we actually have no hint or proof or clue whether there were any other elders or not. Same goes for whether Itachi killed children or didn't. Maybe Kishi didn't want to go into the details there.

I can try to give you another point of view: Sparing innocent elders or children could've ended up worse. There would've been more hatred, more distrust and thoughts over vengeance. In this world elders are neither innocent (Danzo) nor helpless (Konoha's elders). And spared children would've avenged their clan sooner or later.


----------



## EJ (Oct 17, 2014)

Jala said:


> I think it's kinda pointless to discuss this, 'cause we actually have no hint or proof or clue whether there were any other elders or not. Same goes for whether Itachi killed children or didn't. Maybe Kishi didn't want to go into the details there.
> 
> I can try to give you another point of view: Sparing innocent elders or children could've ended up worse. There would've been more hatred, more distrust and thoughts over vengeance. In this world elders are neither innocent (Danzo) nor helpless (Konoha's elders). And spared children would've avenged their clan sooner or later.



You do realize in our world, there have been villages/places in which everyone was killed off in order to 'keep' the threat of the survivors coming back to seek out revenge for what happened to their own people?


----------



## Jυstin (Oct 17, 2014)

Different eras have different customs. Some could say that some of the customs back then were correct. Regardless, the era in Naruto is vastly different than the morality we have in our society today. It's impossible to judge the characters entirely by our standards.


----------



## Shinobu (Oct 17, 2014)

^ This.

It is a fictional world after all. Don't try to compare it with our world. We don't have any jutsus, in school we don't learn how to kill people, at the age of 13 we are not forced in deathmatches. .


----------



## Punished Pathos (Oct 17, 2014)

Itachi still chose to side with the people who oppressed his clan.
He murdered his own Father and Mother and drove Sasuke to near insanity all the while attempting
to hide the truth from him.
If EMS Sasuke would have happened to encounter Naruto with Shisui's crow then Sasuke would have been genjutsu'd into becoming
"Pro Leaf"
Itachi basically forced Sasuke into living a life of lies.
A life where the choices aren't really his own and they are forged from genjutsu/proxy.
Itachi is a terrible brother imo.


----------



## Jυstin (Oct 17, 2014)

Given the circumstances and the repercussions that would have followed, though, as established in the manga, he did make the right choice. That made it all the harder choice to make.


----------



## EJ (Oct 17, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Different eras have different customs.



And we have every right to judge these people on their barbaric fashions. 

Are you saying it's necessary to kill off an entire group of people and to 'crush' their attempts at seeking revenge by doing so? Please answer this question.

And people keep on forgetting that Sarutobi wanted to keep negotiating or seek out negotiations with the clan. Danzo acted too hastily and talked Itachi into doing so using his hate of war as a means to do so.


----------



## Shinobu (Oct 17, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Given the circumstances and the repercussions that would have followed, though, as established in the manga, he did make the right choice. That made it all the harder choice to make.




Indeed. Just think about the alternative: An inevitable war with even more innocent victims. A shinobi's choice in a shinobi's world.

Besides, I already said this before, Itachi himself admitted his treatment on Sasuke was wrong.


----------



## Risyth (Oct 17, 2014)

Jala said:


> ^ This.
> 
> It is a fictional world after all. Don't try to compare it with our world. We don't have any jutsus, in school we don't learn how to kill people, at the age of 13 we are not forced in deathmatches. .



*What about "malum in se"?*


----------



## EJ (Oct 17, 2014)

Jala said:


> An inevitable war with even more innocent victims.




It wasn't 'inevitable', it was speculated it could happen/


----------



## Shinobu (Oct 17, 2014)

Flow said:


> Are you saying it's necessary to kill off an entire group of people and to 'crush' their attempts at seeking revenge by doing so? Please answer this question.
> 
> And people keep on forgetting that Sarutobi wanted to keep negotiating or seek out negotiations with the clan. Danzo acted too hastily and talked Itachi into doing so using his hate of war as a means to do so.




No, it's not necessary in principle. But it seemed to be necessary in Itachi's situation.
Unfortunately we don't know, what Hiruzen tried to do, but depending on his words to Sasuke ("We ordered him to kill his clan.") I guess whatever he tried to, it failed.
However... in my opinion Danzo without a doubt is to blame for stopping Shisui and threatening Itachi.




Risyth said:


> *What about "malum in se"?*




I've never said what Itachi did wasn't a crime. It was one and he wanted to be jugded for it. What I'm saying is *in this (Itachi's) situation* it was an understandable act.




Flow said:


> It wasn't 'inevitable', it was speculated it could happen/




From what we know, we can assume it was inevitable. At least a civil war would have taken place.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Oct 17, 2014)

Flow said:


> It wasn't 'inevitable', it was speculated it could happen/



Flow, get your team together. 
I think we need to join forces just for this one time.


----------



## Jυstin (Oct 17, 2014)

Flow said:


> And we have every right to judge these people on their barbaric fashions.
> 
> Are you saying it's necessary to kill off an entire group of people and to 'crush' their attempts at seeking revenge by doing so? Please answer this question.
> 
> And people keep on forgetting that Sarutobi wanted to keep negotiating or seek out negotiations with the clan. Danzo acted too hastily and talked Itachi into doing so using his hate of war as a means to do so.



We're talking about a society that has customs where kids fight, possibly to the death, to begin a line of career where they put their lives on the line, and even carry out assassination missions, where you're contracted to kill someone JUST because you were paid to do it, no questions asked.

The fact that regardless where Itachi sided, it would have been a bloodbath (killing his clan or attacking the village), he did make the better of the two choices.

Basically, it was set up so that Itachi would lose. It was lose/lose regardless what choice he made, but he made the choice that had the best possible outcome. Had he sided with Uchiha and committed a coup, people would have been bitching even harder about him. I can assure you of that.

Danzou was the real villain in this whole scenario. Itachi was just his pawn, who he forced into making said tough decision.



Jala said:


> Indeed. Just think about the alternative: An inevitable war with even more innocent victims. A shinobi's choice in a shinobi's world.
> 
> Besides, I already said this before, Itachi himself admitted his treatment on Sasuke was wrong.



Yeah. While it says that it's only possible there would have been a war, it was said as a "most likely" scenario. In any case, people can't say siding with the Uchiha in a mutiny would have been better.


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## EJ (Oct 17, 2014)

Jala said:


> No, it's not necessary in principle. But it seemed to be necessary in Itachi's situation.



From what we gathered, it wasn't and more time could of been spent reaching a decision. 




> Unfortunately we don't know, what Hiruzen tried to do, but depending on his words to Sasuke ("We ordered him to kill his clan.") I guess whatever he tried to, it failed.




Sarutobi took credit since it was the basis of what happened.

In reality Sarutobi tried to reach a decision, but kept failing to negotiate in which Danzo ordered Itachi to act without Sarutobi's given word. He secretly told Itachi to act. 

The mere fact that he did this was to show how ruthless he was. The whole point of the Uchiha massacre being done and Itachi, Danzo, and the elders fabricating the story and trying their best to hide behind Itachi for "the sake of the village" was to show how inconsistent it was and didn't at all help out the village in the long run.









> I've never said what Itachi did wasn't a crime. It was one and he wanted to be jugded for it. What I'm saying is *in this (Itachi's) situation* it was an understandable act.




It's not understandable killing off the entire clan. 





> From what we know, we can assume it was inevitable. At least a civil war would have taken place.



Don't throw words around like "inevitable" and pass it around as if it is fact then. Assume all you want, one can also assume that Sarutobi should of been given the decision to do what he wanted with the Uchiha clan and to try and reach negotiations.



Jυstin said:


> We're talking about a society that has customs where kids fight, possibly to the death,



Which is screwed up.

How do you not understand that we are still able to judge the Narutoverse with the way their world is designed?

If your argument is "The kids are part of the Uchiha clan and were ninjas, so therefor they must die as well" would only be consistent if the Uchiha clan had actually started to attack Konoha. 

There are plenty of different ways Konoha could of handled the decision. Opperessing people, lying about genocide, and fabricating stories and lying to the public is messed up within itself. I'm trying to put together how you can think this inheritantly a better option besides telling the Uchiha

"Hey, you guys are right. We will address the fact that you guys have been discriminated against by prior leadership and we will open up the doors for you all to enter all positions within Konoha. No more segregation on our part, and understand this was inherited by poor decisions of others"

Again, Kishimoto handled the massacre and the story dealing with it piss poor, and people fail to realize this. There are too many plot holes and inconsistencies to over look regarding this. The Itachi advocate-rs will sit here and criticize the Naruto manga itself as a whole, but will turn a blind eye to exactly how the massacre was carried out and the story dealing with it.


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## Jυstin (Oct 17, 2014)

Flow said:


> Which is screwed up.
> 
> How do you not understand that we are still able to judge the Narutoverse with the way their world is designed?
> 
> ...



It's because if someone commits a crime in our society, that's messed up. They KNOW that's a no-no.

In the ninja world of Naruto, that's just life. It's not morally wrong. The life of a ninja is already a moral grey area for people like us. We can't really call them scum for living they way they're supposed to. In Itachi's case, he wasn't paid to do it. He was pretty much blackmailed, or given an ultimatum. Either choice would have sucked, but actually siding with a coup would have been far worse.

Kishi could have told the story a bit better or clearer, but the general idea he wanted to paint was all other options for negotiations or peace talks were exhausted, that the only option was to side with Uchiha or Konoha, and that the result would have been a high risk of a new war breaking out. There was no certainty if it would have resulted in a war, but the risk was there. Itachi shouldn't have been dragged into it in the first place. Though I can imagine if Itachi hadn't done it, Danzou would have at least found a team to do it, and they really would have spared no one.

I mean even after Itachi spared Sasuke, he had to threaten Danzou to protect him, so I don't think (if there were other innocent Uchiha) Itachi could have protected ALL of them from Danzou.

What I mean is, ninja in Naruto take on some pretty dirty jobs, but unlike them, this one wasn't for money. Itachi had nothing to gain from it, but he lost his family.


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## Shinobu (Oct 17, 2014)

Flow, you're misunderstanding me. I already wrote earlier in this and the other thread that I'm not considering this assassination as the best that could ever happen. I've accused Danzou, I have criticized the elders, Sarutobi and Fugaku to suspect each other and not even trying to do something about it or to talk with each other. I also said that Itachi isn't a great holy paragon, to me he is not even a "hero" like Naruto is one.

I say it again: He is as shinobi. In a shinobi's world. It is his job to complete missions. And it was his wish to protect his brother and his village.
Thus let me ask you a question: If you were Itachi in the exact same situation, after you talked to the elders, Shisui, Danzou and Tobi, how would you have decided?


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## LesExit (Oct 17, 2014)

Flow said:


> Again, Kishimoto handled the massacre and the story dealing with it piss poor, and people fail to realize this. There are too many plot holes and inconsistencies to over look regarding this.


ya it's ridiculous how badly it was handled.



Why did Itachi only have to leave Sasuke alone though? Couldn't he have picked one other person to stay with him? I don't know...i don't understand their clan or family Kishimoto doesn't seem to either XD


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## Kage (Oct 17, 2014)

Yes he was. It might have been better if he remained a villain.


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## Kusa (Oct 18, 2014)

No, i don't think Itachi is a terrible character at all. Kishi could have handled him much better though.

Itachi looked up to the Hokages since he was a child. The Hokages did value the village more than  anything else. The safety of the village  always  hold a more important role than their own life, or the lifes of people who were dear to them. Hashirama is a perfect example for that. He killed(or better tried to kill) the person who was probably the most important person to him, for the sake of the village. Moreover, Hashirama clearly said, he would have ended the life his own child, if he/she did became a danger to the village as well. Hashirama doesn't get critizided as often like Itachi, for killing Madara. In fact, he gets respected for doing that, what Naruto could not do(kill Sasuke). However, if Hashirama killed his own daughter in cold blood, like he said he would if his own child did become a threat to the village, would have the readers still viewed him as the hero, as they do now ? I doubt so. Sure, some would have understand his position, but he would have been still the man, who killed his own child. This is why, Hashirama was not disgusted by Itachis actions, but rather amazed of it. It's because he would have done or tried to do the same thing. It's how, he and the rest Hokages define 'real Shinobi'. A real Shinobi atleast in the mind of the Hokages, is someone who would be selfless enough to sacrifise his own life or the life of others for the village to save more lifes, even if it's the life of strangers. This way of thinking was anchored in the mind of the Hokages and in the mind of their followers. Itachi was strongly under the infleuence of the village and people like Danzo had much influence over him. Itachi was only 13 years old, when he killed his Clan. He was very mature for his age, but no matter how mature you are with 13, you still lack the experience to make  a very wise choice(not saying every 13 year old would have done the same, Naruto would have not) . Only enough experiences in life can help an individual to make the most wise choice. Itachi did that, what his antecedents to whom he looks up would have done, because he did take over their mindset. He didn't come up with something new, he did not try to find a different solution, one that his orginal even if it might be too idealistic to have a chance to come true.

Itachi was not a hero, not at all. He was both, selfish and very selfless. He was selfless for choosing a life of hell for the greater good, yet he was selfish for harming others for that what he believed was for  the greater good. The big difference between someone like Itachi and the hero of the manga, Naruto is, that Naruto would have never harmed anyone, even not for greater good. He would have tried anything to find a solution, the thought to kill people, because it will save more lifes, would have never crossed his mind. This is why, someone like Naruto is the hero of the manga, the person who is supposed to change everything and someone like Itachi despite getting much honor is not . Naruto breaks norms, even if something seems impossible and the only choice that is left is to harm others for the greater good, he doesn't do it. His love and compassion for other humans is so great, that he could never hurt/kill them like Itachi or how the previous Hokage would have done(thats why unlike Hashirma,he can't kill his best friend). He believes and has more hopes for the humanity, thats why even in the worst situation, he decides not to give up and exceed every limit. Itachi was not supposed to be someone like that. Itachi is just a good Shinobi, who did that what he believed a good Shinobi would need to do. He did not go further and try to change the way of thinking, that dominated in the shinobi world. He just accepted 'reality' and acted according do that. This was supposed to be his role. Not a hero, but a Shinobi who just continued to have the same flawed mindset as his antecedents.


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## EJ (Oct 18, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> It's because if someone commits a crime in our society, that's messed up. They KNOW that's a no-no.



You're making it seem as if the people in the Narutoverse are total barbaric beings who have no concept of justice or not.

The mere fact that Sarutobi didn't want to kill all of the Uchiha and the massacre itself has not been pronounced as "just" says that there are people in the Narutoverse that aren't for killing an entire group of people. The most kind of vibe we get from the characters is 

"That's just so unfortunate" since no one can really cope or make sense with what had happened. Danzo and the elders are looked at as evil for causing the genocide and fabricating the stories. This is implied to be wrong Justin in the manga itself, you can't try and manipulate it into "Well, we can't really judge them cause" 

No, we have every right to judge these people on our moral standards and what we initially believe. You can sit here and play a lazy route and not outright say "What Itachi did was screwed up" but I'm not going to submit like that. You're welcome to stop responding now, I'm looking towards doing the same since we obviously aren't going to reach an agreement. 




Reiji said:


> Flow, you're misunderstanding me. I already wrote earlier in this and the other thread that I'm not considering this assassination as the best that could ever happen. I've accused Danzou, I have criticized the elders, Sarutobi and Fugaku to suspect each other and not even trying to do something about it or to talk with each other. I also said that Itachi isn't a great holy paragon, to me he is not even a "hero" like Naruto is one.
> 
> I say it again: He is as shinobi. In a shinobi's world. It is his job to complete missions. And it was his wish to protect his brother and his village.
> Thus let me ask you a question: If you were Itachi in the exact same situation, after you talked to the elders, Shisui, Danzou and Tobi, how would you have decided?




I don't know how I would of handled the situation completely since

1. I can't relate 

2. The details on both sides are lacking

I can say for certain I wouldn't kill my family though, commit genocide, fabricate the story, and trust my little sibling with the same government that asked me to kill my own clan. 





LesExit said:


> ya it's ridiculous how badly it was handled.
> 
> 
> 
> Why did Itachi only have to leave Sasuke alone though? Couldn't he have picked one other person to stay with him? I don't know...i don't understand their clan or family Kishimoto doesn't seem to either XD



Kishimoto is a terrible writer.


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## Jυstin (Oct 18, 2014)

They were wrong for creating that situation to begin with. This they admitted, but by the time it got that bad, there was no turning back. Itachi's choices were to:

A.) Accept the mission and stop the coup, and the following war (which as I just read, was not stated by Edo Hiruzen as a "possible" scenario, but an inevitable one).
B.) Reject the mission and join the coup, aiding in causing who knows how many actual innocent deaths.
C.) Reject the mission, but also take no part in the coup. Basically be a fence-sitter, which is even worse than taking a stance.

Itachi did not create the situation he was in. He was placed into it, with a heavy burden put on him. Even nowadays, treason in many places is met with death, so we still can't judge the coup assassination even if we tried to apply our own morals to it. It means NOTHING to anyone in the Narutoverse.

Killing children also means nothing. Not in the sense that it's not bad, but that you can't use it to say X character is terrible, because guess what? Zabuza tried to kill kids. Nagato/Pein tried/succeeded killing kids. Sasori killed kids. Deidara killed kids (Gaara counts, even if he was a Kage). Gaara killed kids (as a kid himself, which makes no difference). Orochimaru killed/tried to kill kids. And a lot more did. A lot of the ninjas in this series are kids.

On top of that, a lot of these characters killed innocent people, just because they wanted to. It was not some order given to them, or some act committed for an ultimately good purpose (or at least a purpose to prevent disaster). Yet no one holds this against those characters. It's immensely hypocritical, and not a reason people will take seriously as a reason to hate a character. As far as twisted evil characters go, Orochimaru and Nagato (though he was misguided) have Itachi beaten by a LONG shot.

Though Itachi does admit that he should have told Sasuke about everything, and maybe he could have done something. As it stands, there was nothing anyone else could do. Itachi's mother and father were going to commit a mutiny, and regardless of the circumstances, a mutiny is punishable by whatever means the punisher deems fit, including death.

It's not like they were killed in cold blood. They were straight up going to attack/take over the village. As much as the Konoha elders were at fault for creating the situation, the Uchiha were just as much at fault. Hiruzen TRIED peace talks. The Uchiha wouldn't have it. That's not Itachi's fault. He was caught up in the bullshit created by the Konoha leaders and the stubbornness of the Uchiha. They were at fault for the situation Itachi was in. All he did was pick a side.


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## EJ (Oct 18, 2014)

> You can sit here and play a lazy route and not outright say "What Itachi did was screwed up"




**


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## Jυstin (Oct 18, 2014)

Was there a better option?

I mean obviously, he could have talked with Sasuke and _maybe_ that would have changed things, but back then I think he just didn't want to get Sasuke involved like that. When he spoke to Sasuke about that, saying he should have spoken with him, it was from hindsight _after_ seeing the results of the original choice.

It's a simple question though. Given his situation, what was the better option?


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## EJ (Oct 18, 2014)

1. Tell his clan they stood no chance against Konoha and that a civil war would break out even if they were to miracously succeed. Many people would go after the Uchiha after they took over for causing the outbreak

2. Tell the elders, Danzo, and Sarutobi that he found the man that caused Kyuubi to attack the vilalge

3. Get information out of the Uchiha and find out if any member of the clan was responsible for the Uchiha attack. If even his father denied the allegations, then Itachi would have a good reason to suspect that someone else (not directly involved with the Uchiha clan) was responsible for it. With this, he could cause tension between the higher ups and his clan to be lessened and for them to realize that the earlier segregation was not called for at all, and even apologize to the Uchiha. 

Itachi also didn't even keep into consideration that Konoha causing genocide and trying to fabricate it could possibly lead to a civil war and distrust with the government. Many people were in on what happened and it was very possible someone could find out. So even by committing genocide, he was only prolonging the problem and not facing it head on and trying to resolve the issue within itself.


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## Jυstin (Oct 18, 2014)

I can't imagine that swaying them. Either they wouldn't believe him or they already knew that to begin with. There's no way their coup didn't have careful planning and consideration beforehand, if it was that threatening to the village. That's just the equivalent to saying "This probably isn't a good idea you guys.". Given that there were attempted peace talks in the past, I'm pretty sure that something along those lines might have come up.

The second option could create some complications. Itachi himself didn't even truly know the identity of the man in the mask. The counter point the elders could have presented to him would be that the masked man could have been any of the Uchiha. His face was never shown, after all. Also, all that would have done was lead to peace talks to the Uchiha, but by then Hiruzen said it was too late. He'd tried already to settle it peacefully.

I would question how Itachi alone would do this, or what good it would actually do. The most _he_ would find out is that no one was behind the attack, but that doesn't mean the elders would believe it. I mean if Fugaku or whoever were able to HONESTLY deny it, and still people were suspicious, what are the words of another Uchiha? Itachi could have been branded with trying to protect his own clan and siding with them. I mean, couldn't others have tried investigating too? Is it right to assume that there was no investigation, given that suspicions of Uchiha were high? Itachi was keeping an eye on the Uchiha too, so who is to say that didn't take place, if it was said that all other options were exhausted by the author?

Again, the last point is not Itachi's fault. It's not exactly a clear case of genocide either. Yes, it was almost the whole clan wiped out, but they weren't wiped out because they were part of the clan. They were going to commit a coup. It's a justifiable preemptive strike when you stop to consider the Uchiha's actions would have made them terrorists, regardless of the reason.

There was nothing Itachi alone could have done to resolve the issue. That's way too much to put on a fucking 13 year old, about the same age as Part 1 Naruto and Sasuke. Konoha was irresponsible making him handle it alone instead of doing something about it, although the author says quite a few times, or tries to get across that there was no other political option. They were all exhausted. Even after all was said and done, the only thing Itachi could think of that he could have done differently that would have maybe changed anything was to let Sasuke know and have his innocence sway his parents hearts. No one else was able to sway the Uchiha's hearts. When you can't sway someone's heart to stop them from doing something, you have to take action. Kishimoto was saying that it had gotten to that point. By that point, it was too late. There was too much animosity between the two. Not enough trust. Any of the things you're blaming Itachi of not doing, the Uchiha or Konoha leaders easily could have at least attempted to do themselves. As the ones instigating the conflict, it was their responsibility, especially as the adults, to try to handle it diplomatically. Hiruzen tried many times, at least, but it didn't work.

Perhaps if it were caught early on, before it had gotten so bad between them, but even then that's a lot to pin on a single kid, to the point of blaming him completely for the outcome that the Uchiha's plotting brought upon themselves. In the end, he did what he did. He stopped a rebellion and prevented a war with a weakened Konoha.


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## EJ (Oct 18, 2014)

I'm not going to argue these specific points since it's unclear "what would of happened". I find it disturbing how you discount just about everything Itachi could of done and agree with Itachi committing genocide, fabricating it, and saying "It was definitely for the greater good" even discounting this:


> Itachi also didn't even keep into consideration that Konoha causing genocide and trying to fabricate it could possibly lead to a civil war and distrust with the government. Many people were in on what happened and it was very possible someone could find out. So even by committing genocide, he was only prolonging the problem and not facing it head on and trying to resolve the issue within itself.
> __________________




This is insane Justin, evidence points towards Kishimoto writing the massacre and the follow up story to it terribly. kishimoto isn't an outstanding writer and this is another one of his inconsistencencies. You would have credit if you were to say 

"Given what Kishimoto meant to do, he tried to make it seem like Itachi had no other option...but this is far from the case, and the logic at the end of the day doesn't add up. I see what Kishimoto was trying to do but it was horribly done"


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## Jυstin (Oct 19, 2014)

Not many people were actually in on the operation, at least not within Konoha. In fact, I think it was only the elders and Tobi, as far as I know. No one else in Akatsuki knew, or other nations from what I understand. Fact is, none of the things you said actually happened though. They didn't try to cover up genocide. THAT is what they tried to fabricate. Genocide didn't happen. Anti-terrorism did. They didn't want to sully the Uchiha name. Itachi's name was the only one dragged through the mud. Had the rest of the village been told about the coup, and the Uchiha not eradicated, it could have sparked a civil war from the rest of the clans against Uchiha, or against the elders, depending on which side they took. The best possible thing they could have done to quell anything was to not involve the others at all. Itachi literally took on all the sins committed by both sides and shouldered them on himself. The problem didn't persist after that, as grim as that may sound. It did end the animosity.

Anyway, maybe Itachi didn't investigate the Uchiha and gather information on them to clear their name, but if the Konoha elders were suspicious of the Uchiha after the Kyuubi attack, without doing any actual investigating of the members _themselves_ for any concrete evidence for their suspicions, that is not Itachi's fault.

Maybe Itachi didn't tell the Uchiha they stood no chance against Konoha, but if the Uchiha were not aware of the treason of their actions and the repercussions that they would have on themselves and the village as a whole, as _grown up *experienced*_ shinobi, that is not Itachi's fault.

If the Uchiha were feeling oppressed by the village due to Tobirama's policies put into place, that is also not Itachi's fault. The Uchiha had been feeling oppressed since before Itachi was born. The suspicion regarding the Kyuubi attack was only the final nail in the coffin. Itachi did not need to prove their innocence, since the village wasn't and couldn't outright blame them for it anyway. The Kyuubi attack happened when Itachi was about 5 too, so there wasn't much he could have done himself, and it shouldn't have been his responsibility alone. The Uchiha had been mistrusted and oppressed since before that, due to Tobirama. Even if Itachi would have played Jesus and cleared the Uchiha's name somehow all by himself, it wouldn't have alleviated the animosity that had been already building up for a while before he was even born.

This was a matter over Itachi's head. He was brought into the matter kinda late into the game, as a spy for the Uchiha. But he turned into a double agent for Konoha. They knew a coup was being planned. They had tried to negotiate in peace, but it was rejected. In a way, Itachi *did* send a warning to the Uchiha regarding their coup plan. That was the "mental breakdown" Itachi had with those 3 Uchiha members and his father when he told them off, in front of Sasuke. Sasuke didn't know what was going on, but Fugaku understood the message Itachi was sending him loud and clear. Fugaku outright told Sasuke not to become like his brother, because Fugaku KNEW Itachi wasn't taking their side anymore. The rift between Itachi and Fugaku was well focused on in Sasuke's flashback, following his breakdown.

So, yes it's not like Itachi didn't do ANYTHING. The different ideals created animosity and a rift between Itachi and the Uchiha too. Even Itachi couldn't get through to them. They just separated from him too. Nothing was swaying the Uchiha from their decision. Kishimoto kinda seemed to rush it and didn't do the best job with the story, and he didn't cover all angles people could possibly imagine, but he did try to convey that there was no other option by that point, that everything else was tried before coming to that harsh decision, and later the only other option he brought up was telling Sasuke the truth because he was the only one who had a chance at changing his parents' minds. Itachi had to act.


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## Shinobu (Oct 19, 2014)

^ I agree with this.

I want to mention two additional facts:

1. People say it was terrible writing, so how could it be done better? In the end Sasuke's purpose was the turn into Naruto's counterpart or antagonist and Itachi's story was the big trigger for this. If we assume this genocide had to happen as a part of the whole story development, then how should it be done better?

2. Itachi is supposed to be very intelligent. You know hokage's intelligence at the age of seven... *cough*... however: Don't you think Itachi considered all the other possibilities too? If he was as intelligent as Hiruzen told us, you can assume that he was thinking of ALL your mentioned options, Flow, and finally came to the result that they won't help.

I'm not Itachi either, I think he knew his clan best. And as Justin said, the only option was probably to involve Sasuke.




Flow said:


> I can say for certain I wouldn't kill my family though, commit genocide, fabricate the story, and trust my little sibling with the same government that asked me to kill my own clan.




For Itachi this would have meant to join a coup, to fight against Konoha - speaking of this: Why do people assume this coup would have been a peaceful act with no bloodshed and a following civil war? You know what a coup d'etat is, do you? - and to take the risk, that Sasuke could've been killed. Why is this the better option?


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## EJ (Oct 19, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Not many people were actually in on the operation, at least not within Konoha.



Sarutobi, Danzo, the elders, people who worked for Danzo definitely knew to an extent in those ranks since Danzo himself was prepping his group to attack the clan if Itachi wasn't to go through with it as well as Tobi.

Not only is his a large amount of people to hold onto information that could jeapordise the clan, the information was trusted to someone who had no allegations with Konoha seemingly. What purpose would he have to stay quiet about the massacre? And why would Itachi trust this information to a terrorist that was in charge of a group going against said village?

Stop trying to find a justified reason with the planning and as to what Itachi did. Nothing adds up towards it due to the massacre being held terribly. Itachi even trusted his brother to the same village that made him slaughter his own people and threatened to expose information about the massacre if he was to be harmed. Again, how can you totally accept the small possibility that news of the massacre never getting out..and that's literally exactly what happened. 

The more you try and justify it, the more you are trying to say "Itachi definitely could of gotten away with genocide and fabricating it!", it's straight up sick. 





> 1. People say it was terrible writing, so how could it be done better?




I gave my reasons up above. Justin 'countered' my claims with "Maybes" and "What ifs"





> 2. Itachi is supposed to be very intelligent.



He is supposed to be very intelligent, but the information given to the readers is lack luster and it shows him off to be a selfish idiot. 






> For Itachi this would have meant to join a coup, to fight against Konoha - speaking of this:



Itachi didn't have a third light and only saw it as a black/white issue, and didn't know exactly how to handle it or to save everyone in an innovative fashion. 



> Why do people assume this coup would have been a peaceful act with no bloodshed and a following civil war?



Way to show your level of reading comphrehension towards my post, 

Where did I ever say the coup was the better option? Please show me this.

I specifically implied that neither the coup or the genocide was the "better option" and wasn't handling the situation as a whole and only prolonging it, causing more issues. 


As for all the "What can Itachi have done"

I find it amazingly hilarious that you people love to show "What the manga implies", and what "the manga shows". 

I can just as easily say that Kishimoto implied that Itachi knew what he did was messed up and that he should of used Sasuke as a means to cause his clan/higher-ups as a means to stop both of their actions, or at least attempt to.


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## Shinobu (Oct 19, 2014)

Flow, I think we're talking past each other.

You suppose that there were _more options_ left for Itachi. I suppose that he had _only this two_.

I already wrote alot about this Itachi story and I mentioned earlier, that there *should* have been other options or solutions (like talking or mediating). Of course. But...

... since Itachi choose to kill his family I conclude from this, that there simply was no other option. I mean even in this shinobi world it takes alot to turn against your own family and kill your own mother and father, don't you think so? For Itachi this wasn't an easy choice at all and I guess, that he would never have done it, if there were another option.




> Where did I ever say the coup was the better option? Please show me this.




You did not say this explicit. I supposed so, 'cause you said you would've taken the clan's side.

And yes, I know what the manga implies. I know Itachi admitted alot of mistakes he made.


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## Jυstin (Oct 19, 2014)

Flow said:


> Sarutobi, Danzo, the elders, people who worked for Danzo definitely knew to an extent in those ranks since* Danzo himself was prepping his group to attack the clan if Itachi wasn't to go through with it* as well as Tobi.



I tried to point this out before. Thank you for finally realizing it. He was pressed for time with both sides ready to strike. If Itachi hadn't done it, then others would have, and they wouldn't have spared Sasuke.



> Not only is his a large amount of people to hold onto information that could jeapordise the clan, the information was trusted to someone who had no allegations with Konoha seemingly. What purpose would he have to stay quiet about the massacre? And why would Itachi trust this information to a terrorist that was in charge of a group going against said village?



It was partly to make sure Tobi left Konoha alone. Itachi posed enough of a threat to Tobi to make him keep quiet and to not touch the village, to the point where he honored it until Itachi was dead. Tobi even said something along the lines of "Now that Itachi's dead...". On top of using that opportunity to make sure Tobi left the village alone (which he did for quite some time), Itachi also needed Tobi's help. Afterward, Itachi kept a close eye on Akatsuki and Tobi. He knew that he wasn't really Akastsuki's bumbling goof. He kept Tobi in check, and did plan countermeasures in the event Tobi let it slip, like to Sasuke. Itachi made sure it turned out alright.



> Stop trying to find a justified reason with the planning and as to what Itachi did. Nothing adds up towards it due to the massacre being held terribly. Itachi even trusted his brother to the same village that made him slaughter his own people and threatened to expose information about the massacre if he was to be harmed. Again, how can you totally accept the small possibility that news of the massacre never getting out..and that's literally exactly what happened.



Itachi's trust was not unfounded. He didn't just blindly leave Sasuke to the village. He made sure Danzou wouldn't do anything against Sasuke. You said it yourself, he had leverage. The only one he couldn't really trust was Danzou, not "the whole village". Most of the village didn't know shit, and Itachi knew he could trust Hiruzen.

And again, it wasn't an innocent slaughter. The Uchiha were just as much at fault as the village elders. Hiruzen _tried_ peaceful compromise, but the Uchiha were dead set on treason. Regardless of whether the Uchiha were initially in the right, the act of a coup was wrong.

I don't know if the news of the massacre's truth got out to the whole village or not, but you know what happened? Nothing. No civil war. No mistrust. The real shadows who plotted behind it were all dead. Anyway, it was the risk they had to take. The information getting out could have been potentially bad, regardless if it was sooner than later. Letting the village know right from the start had as much chance to form a civil war as you're saying it did later, which by the way is a "what if" from you, which you're accusing me of making. The difference is that the hostile elements behind the coup, from both sides, would have still been present. This would have caused the other clans to act, and you can't say which side they would have taken. THAT would have resulted in a civil war.

It all boils down to the fact that the whole situation, the animosity between the Uchiha and the village leaders was not good, and none of that was Itachi's fault. Itachi was only the end result, that silenced that animosity.



> The more you try and justify it, the more you are trying to say "Itachi definitely could of gotten away with genocide and fabricating it!", it's straight up sick.



Like I said, it's not genocide. He didn't try to get away with genocide. THAT is what they made it look like he committed. What he really did was kill a bunch of terrorists, regardless how oppressed they were.



> I gave my reasons up above. Justin 'countered' my claims with "Maybes" and "What ifs"



My above post had no maybes or what ifs. Those were all absolutes. This civil war you're saying would have happened, is a what if. Especially considering that it never happened as a result. Even Sasuke steered from the path of revenge, partly thanks to his brother and said brother's loyalty to the village.


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## EJ (Oct 19, 2014)

Reiji said:


> Flow, I think we're talking past each other.
> 
> You suppose that there were _more options_ left for Itachi. I suppose that he had _only this two_.
> 
> I already wrote alot about this Itachi story and I mentioned earlier, that there *should* have been other options or solutions (like talking or mediating). Of course. But...



If you say this, then that means you believe there to be other options that could of been taken, and that Kishimoto handled the massacre terribly. 



> ... since Itachi choose to kill his family I conclude from this, that there simply was no other option. I mean even in this shinobi world it takes alot to turn against your own family and kill your own mother and father, don't you think so? For Itachi this wasn't an easy choice at all and I guess, that he would never have done it, if there were another option.



It being a 'hard' choice doesn't take away from the fact that it was a terrible and selfish one.





> You did not say this explicit. I supposed so, 'cause you said you would've taken the clan's side.



So 'siding' with the clan means not deciding to kill them all? You have a warped mind-set.



> And yes, I know what the manga implies. I know Itachi admitted alot of mistakes he made.



Then you would know Kishimoto implied that Sasuke was the key answer to use to get his clan to calm down. He wouldn't have just had Itachi say all that with no significance. The whole point of Naruto being the "Savior" and displaying Itachi's actions is to show that Itachi although a "fine shinobi" didn't stop hatred, warfare, or bloodshed.




Jυstin said:


> I tried to point this out before. Thank you for finally realizing it. If Itachi hadn't done it, then others would have, and they wouldn't have spared Sasuke.



We don't know if this would of happened if the Uchiha had called off the coup, or if Danzo was just speaking out of his ass. If he wanted to save his clan, he would notify them about Danzo trying to take out the Uchiha and he could of notified Sarutobi about the actions as well. 





> Itachi posed enough of a threat to Tobi to make him keep quiet, to the point where he honored it until Itachi was dead.





Itachi had an illness, and acknowledged inferiority to Tobi/Obito (in power) to him. He was a terrorist in a gang that was literally against the entire ninja world, his days were going dhownhill the day he killed his clan and took all the heat for himself. 

He could of died at any time, causing the information to get out (Which it did). To be honest, we don't know how Konoha would of reacted if they weren't preoccupied with other matters that were a crisis. 



> Tobi even said something along the lines of "Now that Itachi's dead...". Furthermore, Itachi needed Tobi's help. Afterward, Itachi kept a close eye on Akatsuki and Tobi. He knew that he wasn't really Akastsuki's bumbling goof. He kept Tobi in check, and did plan countermeasures in the event Tobi let it slip, like to Sasuke. Itachi made sure it turned out alright.



Yes, he aided Akatsuki in the capture of bijuu, and told his brother that he loved to embrace a life of hatred and to kill his best friend. Keep trying to dodge Itachi's actions, decisions, and plans were poorly handled. 


Your entire post consist of trying to justify an entire genocide and not negotiating and jumping the gun is what makes it sick. Not once did I try to justify a coup, even though the Uchiha were blatantly discriminated against for life cycles causing the halt of the advancement of their own clan. Not once did I say they "Had every right to attack Konoha", I disagreed with it due to them not only putting Konoha at risk, but also their own clan. 

But you continue on accepting the notion that Itachi "should had committed genocide" and not wait it out a bit more, not listen to Danzo, and report to Sarutobi about the matter. For you to agree with Danzo, you would be agreeing with a blatant villain of the series who was the cause for a lot of the problems that the Naruto series has had. The author never tries to have the reader "sympathize" with what Danzo told Itachi to do as much as he never tried to have the reader "sympathize" with the Uchiha pulling a coup. The author deliberately shows that neither side should of taken the action they did, and an understanding definitely could of been reached. Keep side stepping this. 


And again, I'm going to copy/paste what I said since you never really answer this:



> Itachi also didn't even keep into consideration that Konoha causing genocide and trying to fabricate it could possibly lead to a civil war and distrust with the government. Many people were in on what happened and it was very possible someone could find out. So even by committing genocide, he was only prolonging the problem and not facing it head on and trying to resolve the issue within itself.
> __________________



Why do you keep side-stepping this?


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## Shinobu (Oct 19, 2014)

*sigh* Are you misunderstanding me intentionally? Okay, I'll try it again, this time hopefully more clearer:



> If you say this, then that means you believe there to be other options that could of been taken, and that Kishimoto handled the massacre terribly.




No. Otherwise I would not try to explain you, that it wasn't handled as terrible as you think it was. Maybe I should've taken the word "could" instead of "should". But that does not mean that I think there (_there = in Itachis' situation, at that time, in that world, after every other attempt from Shisui, Hiruzen, Itachi obviously failed, otherwise he wouldn't have chosen to kill his own mother and father_) was another.




> It being a 'hard' choice doesn't take away from the fact that it was a terrible and selfish one.




Even though Itachi admits a bit of selfishness for me it wasn't selfish, it was in that (_that = in Itachis' situation, at that time, in that world, after every other attempt from Shisui, Hiruzen, Itachi obviously failed, otherwise he wouldn't have chosen to kill his own mother and father_) situation understandable. Of course it's sad and terrible and I'm glad I wasn't Itachi.




> So 'siding' with the clan means not deciding to kill them all? You have a warped mind-set.




Of course it does, that's what I was trying to say in my last posts. Siding with his clan would have meant to kill even more people, to get (eventually) killed and to take the risk of Sasuke's death. That's why I asked you for your reasons to join rather the clan's side, 'cause this choice would've been much more terrible.


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## EJ (Oct 19, 2014)

You're welcome to keep misreading my post and to keep trying to justify genocide.


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## Jυstin (Oct 19, 2014)

Flow said:


> We don't know if this would of happened if the Uchiha had called off the coup, or if Danzo was just speaking out of his ass. If he wanted to save his clan, he would notify them about Danzo trying to take out the Uchiha and he could of notified Sarutobi about the actions as well.



This is another "what if" question, one that shouldn't be asked. The entire problem was that the Uchiha _wouldn't_ call off the coup, regardless what Hiruzen or others tried. Sarutobi knew as well. They all knew about the coup plan, and they knew if Itachi didn't take action, ANBU would. And of course I'm sure telling the Uchiha about the assassination plans, be it from Itachi or ANBU, wouldn't have made the Uchiha feel even more pissed than they already were. That would have cleared things _right up_.



> Itachi had an illness, and acknowledged inferiority to Tobi/Obito (in power) to him. He was a terrorist in a gang that was literally against the entire ninja world, his days were going dhownhill the day he killed his clan and took all the heat for himself.
> 
> He could of died at any time, causing the information to get out (Which it did). To be honest, we don't know how Konoha would of reacted if they weren't preoccupied with other matters that were a crisis.



Another "what if" that never happened. Itachi knew when he was going to die, though. Like many things he knew in this series, He planned for the exact moment of his death, using medicine to make sure he died at the exact right time to make Sasuke feel like he killed him.

Also, Itachi admitted inferiority to Madara, not Tobi, because he believed him to be Madara. Regardless of his actual standing, he was at least enough of a threat to make Tobi do jack shit until Itachi was gone.



> Yes, he aided Akatsuki in the capture of bijuu, and told his brother that he loved to embrace a life of hatred and to kill his best friend. Keep trying to dodge Itachi's actions, decisions, and plans were poorly handled.



Being undercover within Akatsuki, he had no choice but to play along. He never actually aided in capturing any Bijuu, not even his own. He just helped do the sealing, which they could have done without him, so him not involving himself wouldn't have changed anything but rather jeopardized his own position within Akatsuki. It's necessary for someone to dirty their hands a little if they are infiltrating an evil organization as one of its members.

Itachi also told Sasuke to kill his best friend with the knowledge that Sasuke would reject that because Itachi told him to do it. Sasuke rejected everything Itachi stood for, and Itachi knew this. Itachi was the one who made sure Sasuke was like that in the first place.That's why he planned to have Sasuke gain the Mangekyou through fighting him, because he knew Sasuke wouldn't have it.

Itachi's a genius at reading people and knowing their mannerisms and actions based on their personality. He knew Tobi would try to gain Sasuke's trust when he died, and he knew he'd do that by showing Sasuke his Sharingan. He read Tobi like a book and predicted his actions perfectly.

Before the Uchiha fight even began, Itachi had the whole thing planned out. He even had Sasuke's own moves and countermeasures planned out perfectly, because he was able to read Sasuke's mind that well.

Itachi knew Sasuke would most likely choose to destroy Konoha upon hearing the truth about him, and he was right. He knew Sasuke would implant his eyes to gain the EMS in order to further that goal, and he was again right. He knew Sasuke would encounter Naruto on the way to that goal, and again he was right. Though the Kotoamatsukami trap was used on Itachi instead, Itachi made the right decision implanting it in Naruto and designing it to react to his own Mangekyou Sharingan, because Sasuke did everything Itachi predicted he'd do, and Sasuke didn't kill his best friend for the Mangekyou, just as predicted.



> Your entire post consist of trying to justify an entire genocide and not negotiating and jumping the gun is what makes it sick. Not once did I try to justify a coup, even though the Uchiha were blatantly discriminated against for life cycles causing the halt of the advancement of their own clan. Not once did I say they "Had every right to attack Konoha", I disagreed with it due to them not only putting Konoha at risk, but also their own clan.



I don't know what manga you're reading, but it was stressed over and over that negotiations were tried several times, and the Uchiha rejected all forms of peaceful resolve. There's no argument there.

And like I said, it wasn't genocide, but that's what Itachi WANTED it to look like. Regardless of the intentions, the Uchiha were going to commit an act of treason, which is punishable by... well what they got. This entire argument hinges on saying that they didn't try for a peaceful resolution, which is embarrassingly wrong.



> But you continue on accepting the notion that Itachi "should had committed genocide" and not wait it out a bit more, not listen to Danzo, and report to Sarutobi about the matter. For you to agree with Danzo, you would be agreeing with a blatant villain of the series who was the cause for a lot of the problems that the Naruto series has had. The author never tries to have the reader "sympathize" with what Danzo told Itachi to do as much as he never tried to have the reader "sympathize" with the Uchiha pulling a coup. The author deliberately shows that neither side should of taken the action they did, and an understanding definitely could of been reached. Keep side stepping this.



Your mistake is in assuming there was time left to wait it out. The manga stresses that they were out of options, and that they were out of time (I'm quite sure this is literally stated too, that there was no more time left). On top of that, Fugaku's own words made it sound like the assassination took place the night before the coup, saying "Tomorrow is the 'big day'.".

On top of it being said they tried for peace and they had no time left, use common sense. For such an extreme action as wiping out the insurrection completely, do you _really_ think that they didn't try every other means and that they didn't wait until the last possible minute? Come on. Kishi at least explained that much to us. He didn't go too much into the details, but as was explained by a few POVs in the manga, all manner of attempts at peaceful resolution ended in failure, and they were simply out of options and out of time. This had been apparently going on for quite a bit before they had no choice but to wipe the Uchiha out at the last minute.

The manga does say that neither side was completely in the right, but it also says that there was no chance at coming to an understanding. The Uchiha were rejecting all attempts at that. They knew they were gonna try to coup. They tried to settle it peacefully. The ENTIRE problem was that they couldn't stop them from wanting to go through with it. That's why Itachi said that, maybe Sasuke could have changed his parents' mind. That was the only thing Itachi said that could have changed the outcome, because all the stuff you're saying they should have tried, the manga explains was tried already. The only problem was they couldn't get them to call off the coup, but Sasuke might have been able to do that.



> And again, I'm going to copy/paste what I said since you never really answer this:
> 
> Why do you keep side-stepping this?



I've actually answered this quite a few times. You're side-stepping my answer. A civil war is one of _your_ "what if" responses. A civil war never happened. And they did not try to cover up genocide. On the contrary, they tried to make it _look_ like it was a genocide committed by Itachi.

The problem was that the Uchiha were planning a coup, and were not listening to reason or any attempts at peaceful resolution. The problem, while created by Tobirama, was the Uchiha. That problem was erased when they were killed. They were a threat to the village's safety. They were not listening to peace. They were selfishly listening to their own desires of revenge against the village leaders, including Hiruzen, who didn't persecute the Uchiha at all.


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## EJ (Oct 19, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> This is another "what if" question, one that shouldn't be asked. The entire problem was that the Uchiha _wouldn't_ call off the coup,



They wouldn't call off the coup due to being discriminated against and Sarutobi and higher-ups not reaching an exact decision. Are you honestly trying to say that Sarutobi publicly telling the village that the Uchiha had been discriminated against for quiet a while and allegations would be taken to put an end to that crap and note that he inherited it?

Part of your answered you made a "What if" answer as well, I'm doing exactly what you've been doing this entire time Justin. 





> Another "what if" that never happened. Itachi knew when he was going to die, though. Like many things he knew in this series, He planned for the exact moment of his death, using medicine to make sure he died at the exact right time to make Sasuke feel like he killed him.



Bullshit,

Don't try and make it seem like Itachi was Jesus and had perfect control of when he would die. Anything could of happened to him within that time span and it wasn't a given fact that he would be around to make Danzo and Obito keep their end of the bargains. Sasuke was put in more than three life and death scenarios and his attempts at "Saving his little brother" all would of been for nothing. 




> Also, Itachi admitted inferiority to Madara, not Tobi, because he believed him to be Madara. Regardless of his actual standing, he was at least enough of a threat to make Tobi do jack shit until Itachi was gone.




He admitted inferiority to Obito/Tobi no matter how you slice it. He had his assumptions of his actual ability and knew he stood no chance against him outright, other wise he would of killed him given the chance to in order to save Konoha. 



> Being undercover within Akatsuki, he had no choice but to play along.



Yes, 

He attacked Konoha (given he was completely cautious and wanted to avoid casaulties) yet aided in the capture of Gaara (he distracted Konoha long enough for them to do this, almost causing the deaths of entire teams) and he helped captured another bijuu with Kisame.

Oh wait, Kisame was carrying the bijuu back on his sword, so that obviously means Itachi "Didn't play a part in it since we didn't see it"




> He never actually aided in capturing any Bijuu, not even his own. He just helped do the sealing, which they could have done without him so him not involving himself wouldn't have changed anything but rather jeopardized his own position within Akatsuki. It's necessary for someone to dirty their hands a little if they are infiltrating an evil organization as one of its members.



Your idea of "getting their hands dirty" is capturing bijuu, and genocide. Please, this paragraph is laughable. 



> Itachi also told Sasuke to kill his best friend with the knowledge that Sasuke would reject that because Itachi told him to do it. That's why he planned to have Sasuke gain the Mangekyou through fighting him, because he knew Sasuke wouldn't have it.



No, now you're making up your own fanfiction. When was it ever stated by Itachi that "he knew that Sasuke would reject his advice"? When was this stated? What was the purpose of even telling him about the " dark secrets of the Uchiha clan" if no one truly knew?

He guided him off into a wrong path and wanted him to embrace a life of hatred. 

The way you're talking about Itachi at this point screams fanboyism

You might as well say "Itachi is basically God" due to how you described him.

And since you yet again side stepped my answer, here we go again Justin:



> Itachi also didn't even keep into consideration that Konoha causing genocide and trying to fabricate it could possibly lead to a civil war and distrust with the government. Many people were in on what happened and it was very possible someone could find out. So even by committing genocide, he was only prolonging the problem and not facing it head on and trying to resolve the issue within itself.
> __________________


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## Jυstin (Oct 19, 2014)

Flow said:


> They wouldn't call off the coup due to being discriminated against and Sarutobi and higher-ups not reaching an exact decision. Are you honestly trying to say that Sarutobi publicly telling the village that the Uchiha had been discriminated against for quiet a while and allegations would be taken to put an end to that crap and note that he inherited it?
> 
> Part of your answered you made a "What if" answer as well, I'm doing exactly what you've been doing this entire time Justin.



Publicly admitting the discrimination would have created that civil war-causing rift and distrust between the village and leaders that you keep talking about. It was a problem created by Tobirama. Hiruzen was not a persecutor. It's not exactly said _what_ these negotiations were, but Hiruzen said that they tried to negotiate the issue peacefully with the Uchiha many times. The Uchiha rejected it. End of story.

No, if the Uchiha were pissed at being discriminated against, they'd be even more pissed if they heard that a plan to wipe them out was brewing. That's common sense.



> Bullshit,
> 
> Don't try and make it seem like Itachi was Jesus and had perfect control of when he would die. Anything could of happened to him within that time span and it wasn't a given fact that he would be around to make Danzo and Obito keep their end of the bargains. Sasuke was put in more than three life and death scenarios and his attempts at "Saving his little brother" all would of been for nothing.



Well apparently Itachi knew when he would die, because he died exactly when he wanted to, so... I don't know what the fuck you're trying to argue here. "You can't say he could do it, even though that's exactly what he did!", is that your argument? Cause it's a very... weak one.

Are you blaming Itachi for the times Sasuke almost died, that he had no control over? I seem to remember Sasuke being saved a few times by his will to go on to fulfill his goal of revenge, and thanks to the power he gained in his drive for revenge.

Come on, is your hatred so blind that you'll blame Itachi for things he had nothing to do with? Sasuke almost died due to the Cursed Seal being placed on him in the Forest of Death, but how the fuck is that Itachi's fault? If anything, it's Hiruzen's because he let Orochimaru go. Come off of the bullshit.



> He admitted inferiority to Obito/Tobi no matter how you slice it. He had his assumptions of his actual ability and knew he stood no chance against him outright, other wise he would of killed him given the chance to in order to save Konoha.



No, it was because he considered him Madara. As I said, regardless of his actual standing, it was still enough to keep Tobi to hold his end of the deal. Itachi was enough of a threat for that. That is the point I'm trying to make. Tobi didn't do shit because Itachi stood in his way, whether Itachi was a threat to Tobi's life or to some other vital part of his plan.



> Yes,
> 
> He attacked Konoha (given he was completely cautious and wanted to avoid casaulties) yet aided in the capture of Gaara (he distracted Konoha long enough for them to do this, almost causing the deaths of entire teams) and he helped captured another bijuu with Kisame.



Itachi never attacked Konoha, unlike when Deidara entered Suna. They were strolling through, having done nothing hostile, when they were confronted and counterattacked. Itachi ended the fight with Kakashi without killing him, and then they encountered Naruto where Itachi didn't immediately grab Naruto, but asked him to come with them politely, and then proceeded to do nothing but leave without Naruto, when Itachi had every chance to grab Naruto before and when Jiriaya arrived.

Itachi also never jeopardized Team Kakashi on the way to Gaara. In fact, he didn't really do much of anything in that fight. He smiled as he was killed. They could have made Shoten clones out of anyone, but at least Itachi could go easy on Team Kakashi and just stall them. What reason would he have had to flat out refuse to go to stop them when Pein suggested it? Would that have not looked suspicious?



> Oh wait, Kisame was carrying the bijuu back on his sword, so that obviously means Itachi "Didn't play a part in it since we didn't see it"



I have more right to assume he didn't than you do that he did. There's no evidence you can use to prove that Itachi had any part in it. Deidara captured Gaara on his own. Hidan took care of the 2 Tails on his own. Considering how Kisame brutalized Bee, I don't think the 4 Tails was such a problem that Itachi was even needed. Either way, don't make claims to shit that you can't prove. The burden of proof is on you to prove he did anything of the sort. Show me scans. The lack of action from Itachi for your claim is all the evidence I need to claim his inaction.



> Your idea of "getting their hands dirty" is capturing bijuu, and genocide. Please, this paragraph is laughable.



Itachi was undercover in Akatsuki. From the sounds of it, you wouldn't last 5 minutes undercover in an evil organization. You would be a worthless double agent.

And like I said, genocide didn't occur. That's what Itachi wanted it to look like.



> No, now you're making up your own fanfiction. When was it ever stated by Itachi that "he knew that Sasuke would reject his advice"? When was this stated? What was the purpose of even telling him about the " dark secrets of the Uchiha clan" if no one truly knew?



By the fact that Itachi had planned how Sasuke would gain the Mangekyou Sharingan. On top of that, there's the undeniable evidence where it shows Itachi's gifted enough to know the actions of people well into the future, and plan accordingly. What evidence do you have to support that he didn't know? Itachi made Sasuke reject him. If he was able to predict Sasuke's and Tobi's actions so perfectly, even knowing that Sasuke would implant Itachi's eyes, why is it so ridiculous to believe he was able to predict Sasuke's actions? He's done it numerous times already. Come on.

Itachi told Sasuke about it because he was still, after all, playing the role of the villain. Were you convinced? Then he did a good job. He was aiming for that, after all. It all accomplished making Sasuke strive for power. Itachi mentioned the Mangekyou, telling Sasuke to come face him in the future. It sort of helped create the drive for Sasuke to seek revenge, because Itachi issued a challenge to Sasuke.



> He guided him off into a wrong path and wanted him to embrace a life of hatred.
> 
> The way you're talking about Itachi at this point screams fanboyism
> 
> You might as well say "Itachi is basically God" due to how you described him.



Itachi is no god. He's made predictions so accurate that one could assume he has divine clairvoyance, but that's only because he's done it numerous times in the manga. He's proven that he can do it. But he's made plenty of mistakes, involving Sasuke.

The main mistake was not telling Sasuke about everything from the get go. He also shouldn't have led Sasuke down a path of hatred, but given the choice he made to not tell Sasuke about the coup plan, I can see why he did it and played the villain to Sasuke. He made the wrong choice at the beginning, but he did succeed in making Sasuke stronger, and Sasuke is still alive.

The biggest mistake was Itachi not being in his brother's life as his loving brother. He succeeded in making Sasuke stronger then he ever could have been, but a huge part of Sasuke's heart was taken away. Itachi should have involved Sasuke from the start. Itachi even says he should have done that. Itachi tried to do too much on his own, though others were at fault for forcing it on him. Itachi saw that from hindsight, after seeing how things turned out with Sasuke. He had no way of knowing back then, but it still was a mistake.



> And since you yet again side stepped my answer, here we go again Justin:



And since you side-stepped my answer, I'll just paste my answer again.

I've actually answered this quite a few times. You're side-stepping my answer. A civil war is one of your "what if" responses. A civil war never happened. And they did not try to cover up genocide. On the contrary, they tried to make it look like it was a genocide committed by Itachi.

The problem was that the Uchiha were planning a coup, and were not listening to reason or any attempts at peaceful resolution. The problem, while created by Tobirama, was the Uchiha. That problem was erased when they were killed. They were a threat to the village's safety. They were not listening to peace. They were selfishly listening to their own desires of revenge against the village leaders, including Hiruzen, who didn't persecute the Uchiha at all. 

This answers your question, unless that's not what you're asking and you're wording it really shitty.


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## EJ (Oct 19, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Publicly admitting the discrimination would have created that civil war-causing rift and distrust between the village and leaders that you keep talking about. It was a problem created by Tobirama. Hiruzen was not a persecutor. It's not exactly said _what_ these negotiations were, but Hiruzen said that they tried to negotiate the issue peacefully with the Uchiha many times. The Uchiha rejected it. End of story.



No, it was said they "kept failing to reach negotiations" not that it "failed and they were going to definitely attack the village"

Again, you're twisting the story in order to fit your dilemma over a flawed character who admitted his actions were wrong, but since you're such a fanboy over him you want to try and defend genocide. 



> No, if the Uchiha were pissed at being discriminated against, they'd be even more pissed if they heard that a plan to wipe them out was brewing. That's common sense.



You don't know this. Sarutobi could of easily had placed the blame on the elders and the Danzo. It was only three people pushing for that to happen, not Sarutobi himself. 

It's adorable that you're irritated by my what ifs after doing it for an entire thread.




> Well apparently Itachi knew when he would die, because he died exactly when he wanted to, so... I don't know what the fuck you're trying to argue here. "You can't say he could do it, even though that's exactly what he did!", is that your argument? Cause it's a very... weak one.




He never "knew", he fought for it to happen and it still worked and he still failed. Sasuke still found out about the coup. Itachi succeeded due to plot reasons and you can't deny this. You can try and type it up as if Itachi was an "all knowing perfect being who knew when he would die" but the risk of him failing was so high. 



> Are you blaming Itachi for the times Sasuke almost died, that he had no control over? I seem to remember Sasuke being saved a few times by his will to go on to fulfill his goal of revenge, and thanks to the power he gained in his drive for revenge.




The time that Haku could of easily killed Sauke, 

The time Zabuza could of killed Sasuke,

The Time Orochimaru could of almost killed Sasuke by giving him a curse seal,

The time Gaara could of killed Sasuke on two different ocassions,

The time Naruto could of killed Sasuke on top of the hospital,

The time Naruto could of possibly lost control and killed Sasuke at VotE

The time Orochimaru could of taken control over Sasuke's body,

The time Deidara could of killed Sasuke (And Itachi knowingly let Deidara go to his younger brother)




> Come on, is your hatred so blind that you'll blame Itachi for things he had nothing to do with? Sasuke almost died due to the Cursed Seal being placed on him in the Forest of Death, but how the fuck is that Itachi's fault? If anything, it's Hiruzen's because he let Orochimaru go. Come off of the bullshit.



I'm showing that Itachi's "plans" to keep Sasuke safe were horse shit. Itachi also made Sasuke a marked ninja by making him the "last" of the Uchiha. People would gun for him in order to gain the knowledge of killing "one of the last members of the Uchiha clan"






> Itachi also never jeopardized Team Kakashi on the way to Gaara. In fact, he didn't really do much of anything in that fight. He smiled as he was killed. They could have made Shoten clones out of anyone, but at least Itachi could go easy on Team Kakashi and just stall them. What reason would he have had to flat out refuse to go to stop them when Pein suggested it? Would that have not looked suspicious?





Itachi separated them so they couldn't work for the other teams. Kisame could of killed Team Gai on multiple occassions causing more deaths. And again, don't try to manipulate what happened,

Itachi helped in the capture of other bijuu.

He assisted in capturing the other bijuu Kisame had on his shoulder. If he helped in the capture of Gaara, how is it hard to believe he wouldn't assist Kisame in capturing the other bijuu? 

Simply because you're a fanboy and you don't want to look at it from that stand point. 

Justin, you've show far have

1. Defended what Itachi did with his clan even though Itachi outright admits it wasn't the best option

2. Defended what he did to Sasuke even though Itachi outright admits what he did with Sasuke wasn't best for his brother at all

3. Aided in the capture of other bijuu

He's obviously has done more in Akatsuki in order to keep suspicion off the fact he was a double agent but you excused this by saying "You have to get your hands dirty"

Your defense and fanboyism is apparent and the more we argue, the more you continue on losing this debate. 






> And since you side-stepped my answer, I'll just paste my answer again.




I didn't side step your answer, you gave a half-ass answer and said

"W-Well guess what? A CIVIL WAR DIDNT BREAK OUT"

When I pointed out earlier that this is due to the united stand against Obito/Madara. I'm not even sure that many people in the ninja world actually know what Itachi did. 

Itachi certainly did know it would cause conflict for Konoha, which is why he threatened to expose information about what happened to other villages in order to make them distrust Konoha and to cause conflict. 

And here's my post again since you side stepped it:



> Itachi also didn't even keep into consideration that Konoha causing genocide and trying to fabricate it could possibly lead to a civil war and distrust with the government. Many people were in on what happened and it was very possible someone could find out. So even by committing genocide, he was only prolonging the problem and not facing it head on and trying to resolve the issue within itself.
> _______________


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## Jυstin (Oct 19, 2014)

Wait lemme get this straight. Now you're denying they were gonna stage a coup?

I think I'm done talking to you.


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## EJ (Oct 19, 2014)

Your reading comprehension is terrible Justin.


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## Jυstin (Oct 19, 2014)

Then what is this implying?



> not that it "failed and they were going to definitely attack the village"



What, that they weren't definitely going to attack the village? My reading comprehension is fine.


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## EJ (Oct 19, 2014)

I'm stating that there were other options available and different ways to handle the situation without using a cope or genocide as a means to "get things done". 

You know, the same thing your favorite character admits to before he dies a second time.


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## Jυstin (Oct 19, 2014)

How does that translate to there being more options? They were going to attack the village. That much is crystal clear. To avoid that, they tried going the peaceful route through negotiation. It stated that all peaceful negotiations ended in failure. Their non violent methods failed. I don't see what else you could have taken from that.

Itachi only said that he should have told Sasuke and maybe he could have changed the Uchiha's mind. Nothing else was mentioned.


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## EJ (Oct 19, 2014)

> Itachi also didn't even keep into consideration that Konoha causing genocide and trying to fabricate it could possibly lead to a civil war and distrust with the government. Many people were in on what happened and it was very possible someone could find out. So even by committing genocide, he was only prolonging the problem and not facing it head on and trying to resolve the issue within itself.






There were other options Justin, Kishimoto just made it hard for you to love your favorite character, I understand this.


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## Jυstin (Oct 19, 2014)

You keep fabricating a civil war that never happened, and it never would have. They village found out about it, and no civil war resulted from it. It never had a chance from the start.

That doesn't even provide another option. All you did was fabricate a risk that never existed in the first place, and then pin "what if" arguments on EVERYONE else.

You already provided your "head on" solutions, which I already addressed. Assuming those methods weren't already tried. If peaceful negotiations weren't working, what then? If persuasion doesn't work, the only other option is force.


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## EJ (Oct 19, 2014)

So a civil war that hasn't happened due to

The ninjas uniting against Obito/Madara currently,

no one really knowing about Konoha making up and trying excuse genocide,

This is pathetic Justin, just stop.


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## Jυstin (Oct 19, 2014)

Or maybe it's the fact that people have a level head and understand reason, like how the Uchiha were planning to attack them.

Of course, the issue of the war could be in play too, but the truth was revealed before that, at least to some. Kakashi nor Naruto or others felt any mistrust with Konoha.

Probably because Tsunade was in charge, not Danzou. These elements were only tied to certain people, and not exactly to the position of power in Konoha.

The situation itself, both the discrimination of the Uchiha and the Uchiha's plot to stage a coup, one could argue, would have been cause for this civil war you speak of. There was no avoiding that "what if" you presented, the moment it started. The situation itself was not Itachi's fault. They took the best course of action, which was to end the insurrection and make it look like an act of genocide from a rogue ninja, instead of revealing that the Uchiha were the ones plotting and that they were taken out for being traitors.

Of course, that wasn't plan A. Due to the growing hostilities between the Uchiha and Konoha, they tried negotiating with the Uchiha peacefully. But no. Kishimoto explained that any attempts at non violent resolution (described as MULTIPLE negotiations) failed because the Uchiha were dead set on revenge. They didn't want to feel like dogs under the leaders. They wanted to take over and rule. The manga says that by the point of the massacre, they were out of time looking for a means to end it peacefully, which they'd tried.

The option to actually stop them from going through with it simply didn't exist. That's obvious the moment you hear that negotiating with them wasn't working. They weren't being swayed. And as I mentioned, involving the rest of the village in any way had a risk. It still wasn't going to stop the Uchiha from wanting to take over. If anything, it could have made them feel even more threatened, or it could have resulted with the other clans siding with the Uchiha on the matter, which would have really turned into a civil war.

Of course, then the leaders could try negotiating with the Uchi- oh wait


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## Shinobu (Oct 20, 2014)

Flow said:


> You're welcome to keep misreading my post and to keep trying to justify genocide.





Flow said:


> Your reading comprehension is terrible Justin.




I see what you did there. 

If you think, I justify genocide, then you're the one misreading.

Agree with everything Justin wrote.


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## Jυstin (Oct 20, 2014)

Yeah. Genocide is terrible, but I explained the situation to a few other people (people who don't know anime, but excel in real world) and asked if it was genocide or anti-terrorism, and they said it was clearly anti-terrorism. It just so happens that the terrorists were... the entire Uchiha clan. They don't get immunity simply because they're a whole clan. Konoha tried to settle things through negotiation. The Uchiha made their own bed. It was over for them the moment they decided to go through with the mutiny. Hiruzen extended his hand to them more than once, and they slapped it away every single time.


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## Breadman (Oct 20, 2014)

Itachi committed a genocide on an entire clan, wiping out pretty much all but one. No matter what his reasoning was for it, it was still a horrible thing that he did that shouldn't be excused. 

As for if Itachi killed children..... well, unless you believe that he, Itachi, Shisui, and Itachi's lovers were the only children in the clan....... then yes, since he was the one that basically committed the genocide, he would've killed off any other Uchiha children.

Is it really that hard to understand for some people?


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## Shinobu (Oct 20, 2014)

Yoshua said:


> Itachi committed a genocide on an entire clan, wiping out pretty much all but one. No matter what his reasoning was for it, it was still a horrible thing that he did that shouldn't be excused.
> 
> Is it really that hard to understand for some people?




Can't remember anyone in this thread saying, that the massacre itself was something good. After all Itachi was turned into a villain for this.

I don't want to excuse it. But is it really that hard to understand that the other option would've been even more horrible?


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## Jυstin (Oct 20, 2014)

Yoshua said:


> Itachi committed a genocide on an entire clan, wiping out pretty much all but one. No matter what his reasoning was for it, it was still a horrible thing that he did that shouldn't be excused.



Genocide is terrible, but it's not like Itachi massacred a bunch of innocent people. They had tried to negotiate peacefully with the Uchiha to avoid any bloodshed, but the Uchiha rejected it and held on to their hatred and continued with their plan to mutiny. It was either stop them, join them, or sit back and do nothing.


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## EJ (Oct 20, 2014)

Reiji said:


> I see what you did there.
> 
> If you think, I justify genocide, then you're the one misreading.
> 
> Agree with everything Justin wrote.



You're defending Itachi's actions and agreeing with "everything" Justin wrote. You'd be defending genocide. I'm sure you don't even necessarily agree with everything he's said, you're saying that to lend support to his argument. 

The only reason why Justin is even defending Itachi is because he's a fan of Itachi, like you are. 





Jυstin said:


> Or maybe it's the fact that people have a level head and understand reason, like how the Uchiha were planning to attack them.



And you keep failing to realize what I'm saying or talking about due to your fanboyism.

No one in this thread for the most part has tried to say Konoha should of sat idly by and let the coup happen. My main argument is that Itachi could of went about it a different route and played up the "kill my own family to protect the village route" out of fear of a civil war and he didn't want or didn't want his little brother to experience it. 

Justin, this was widely implied in the manga and yet you still try to defend all of Itachi's actions even when he himself didn't agree with what he did in the end. 



> Of course, the issue of the war could be in play too, but the truth was revealed before that, at least to some. Kakashi nor Naruto or others felt any mistrust with Konoha.



Good God,

This is about the third or fourth time you've attempted to manipulate what happened in the manga in order to fit your agenda.



> Tobi later revealed the truth of the Uchiha Massacre to Naruto Uzumaki, Kakashi Hatake, and Yamato. *However, with no evidence behind Tobi's words, Kakashi suggested to Naruto and Yamato to keep the information to themselves so as not to hinder Konoha while being rebuilt after Pain's invasion*



You're either a liar, or your fanboyism causes you not to recall what happened involving your favorite character if it happened to be negative.




> But no. Kishimoto explained that any attempts at non violent resolution (described as MULTIPLE negotiations) failed because the Uchiha were dead set on revenge.



Here you are yet again manipulating the manga and what was said. 




> Though the Third Hokage Hiruzen Sarutobi, who did not agree with the treatment being dealt to the Uchiha,[2][5] *attempted to achieve a peaceful resolution with the clan, Danzō Shimura — who was not one to wait around for peaceful negotiations — convinced Itachi that slaughtering his entire clan was the only way to avert war, *promising that his younger brother Sasuke Uchiha would be spared.




Sarutobi is implied to be shown to try and negotiate with the Uchiha but "time running out" meant that Danzo acted in secret without getting permission from Sarutobi and yet here is the result. 







Yoshua said:


> Itachi committed a genocide on an entire clan, wiping out pretty much all but one. No matter what his reasoning was for it, it was still a horrible thing that he did that shouldn't be excused.
> 
> As for if Itachi killed children..... well, unless you believe that he, Itachi, Shisui, and Itachi's lovers were the only children in the clan....... then yes, since he was the one that basically committed the genocide, he would've killed off any other Uchiha children.
> 
> Is it really that hard to understand for some people?





Because, fanboys will do anything to protect the image of their favorite characters.


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## EJ (Oct 20, 2014)

You're basing your opinion off what happened with the Uchiha clan and how a few people felt after so many things happening, such as the Pain invasion, and the War arc

Itachi almost knew for certain that information would hinder the village, which is why he took all of the heat on himself. Kakashi felt the exact same way.


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## Jυstin (Oct 20, 2014)

No. It was also said that all attempts at negotiating with the Uchiha failed. There were a few recounts of the Uchiha and Konoha incident. One of them mentions that.


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## Shinobu (Oct 20, 2014)

Flow said:


> You're defending Itachi's actions and agreeing with "everything" Justin wrote. You'd be defending genocide. I'm sure you don't even necessarily agree with everything he's said, you're saying that to lend support to his argument.
> 
> The only reason why Justin is even defending Itachi is because he's a fan of Itachi, like you are.




To tell you the truth I'm a Naruto fanboy.  But yes, I like Itachi. And Shikamaru, Sasuke, Jiraiya, Sasori, Kakashi etc.

With your statement you're also implying that the lawyers in our world defend murder, crime and rape... ? (In fact they do the same for their clients as I do for Itachi here.)


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## Jυstin (Oct 20, 2014)

Also what happened was not genocide. The Uchiha were not innocent. They were terrorists by that point (or rather, they were behaving like terrorists, or were as much of a threat as terrorists due to their extreme plans of action). Hiruzen tried to reach peaceful negotiations. One of the recounts of the incident states that they all met with failure. Letting them go would have been dangerous. They couldn't just sit back and do nothing.

Also I could say that you're only illogically going against facts cause you're a hater.


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## EJ (Oct 20, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> No.



Yes, it was specifically stated that time ran out and Danzo acted without Sarutobi's orders. 

-Uchiha are discriminated against

-Uchiha get upset and stage coup

-Sarutobi, Danzo, and the elders find out about this. Sarutobi tries to reach negotiations that aren't taken into consideration. He still continues to negotiate

-Danzo feels the threat for a ninja war is there and calls to attack the Uchiha







Reiji said:


> To tell you the truth I'm a Naruto fanboy.  But yes, I like Itachi. And Shikamaru, Sasuke, Jiraiya, Sasori, Kakashi etc.



I didn't ask for a list of your fav Naruto characters, but it's obvious that your fanboyism causes you to have terrible reading comprehension. You agreed with Justin and still stated "I'm not supporting genocide" when Justin on more than one account stated he found the massacre justified...despite the fact that even his favorite character in the end didn't agree with it. 




> With your statement you're also implying that the lawyers in our world defend murder, crime and rape... ? (In fact they do the same for their clients as I do for Itachi here.)




Are you now defending someone who slaughtered his own clan and murdered his own brother  and trying to draw parallel lines from being a lawyer in the real world to what you're doing right now?

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say you have no understanding of how the legal system (within the US) works. A war criminal wouldn't be tried as a regular criminal in the first place, so this comparison is dull. 

This is idiotic within itself anyways. Are you going to call Itachi to the stand to ask "further questioning"? You know, since Kishimoto handled the massacre was handled so poorly. 



Jυstin said:


> Also what happened was not genocide.



Yes it was. 




> Also I could say that you're only illogically going against facts cause you're a hater.




I found Itachi's character interesting and his actions disgusting back then (if he truly did murder his own clan). Once I saw that Kishimoto tried to paint his character as a "gray" character and fanboys try to excuse genocide then I became even more disgusted.


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## EJ (Oct 20, 2014)

Yoshua said:


> Itachi committed a genocide on an entire clan, wiping out pretty much all but one. No matter what his reasoning was for it, it was still a horrible thing that he did that shouldn't be excused.
> 
> As for if Itachi killed children..... well, unless you believe that he, Itachi, Shisui, and Itachi's lovers were the only children in the clan....... then yes, since he was the one that basically committed the genocide, he would've killed off any other Uchiha children.
> 
> Is it really that hard to understand for some people?



More stuff to add to this post,

You can basically get the vibe from users like Justin. He's basically defended just about every single little thing Itachi and proclaim it was "all for the greater good"

From the capturing of bijuu, to torturing his little brother, to committing genocide, Justin has a "There's a good reason he did this" excuse for all of that due to his fanboyism.

I reached an agreement in this thread and others noting I can see "Why and how Itachi thought and did what he did", but ultimately it was the wrong move, implied by Itachi himself.

Not all Itachi fans are like Justin though and will admit the flaws of their own character. 

Something else Justin keeps on hopping over:



> Itachi also didn't even keep into consideration that Konoha causing genocide and trying to fabricate it could possibly lead to a civil war and distrust with the government. Many people were in on what happened and it was very possible someone could find out. So even by committing genocide, he was only prolonging the problem and not facing it head on and trying to resolve the issue within itself.
> _______________




He's yet to type out a legit counter for this and only states "Well, nothing has happened so far" when only like 6/10 plus people know about the incident, and a good amount of them agreeing/admitting if that information were to get out it could hinder Konoha.


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## LesExit (Oct 20, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Also what happened was not genocide.


"the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group"

How....could it not be genocide? It being genocide is literally just a fact.

"In 1946 the UN General Assembly declared genocide a punishable crime. By this declaration, genocide by definition may be committed by an *individual*, group, or government, *against one's own people* or another, in peacetime or in wartime." - but clearly Konoha's government didn't give a noodle about the crime they were letting Itachi commit :33


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## EJ (Oct 20, 2014)

We shouldn't say Konoha as a whole, I'm sure not everyone would of been for the cope like everyone would not had been for genocide. 

The Uchiha were perfectly capable of being negotiated with, but a lot of them were influenced by Fugaku. If Fugaku was about to sway his opinion, the other Uchiha would of followed suit. This is implied when Shisui tried to mind control Fugaku and failed due to Danzo.

The people who are calling for genocide not realizing Danzo himself ruined the perfect opportunity to call it off just because he wanted to "make sure" the Uchiha would no longer be a threat is just...

If Itachi used Sasuke as a means to sway Fugaku, none of this shit would of happened.


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## Shinobu (Oct 20, 2014)

There's a difference between justifying, defending, excusing and supporting.

It doesn't look like you're even trying to understand me, whilst I _can_ understand why people do have their problems with Itachi's story.

You're bound on our morals and on our justice. That's nothing bad though, keep it. But you can not use them to understand and explain Itachi's act.



> I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say you have no understanding of how the legal system (within the US) works. A war criminal wouldn't be tried as a regular criminal in the first place, so this comparison is dull.




Indeed. That was a shot in the deep dark. You can believe me: Even war criminals have the right to get a proper judgment and a lawyer. That's called human rights. And you basically never lose them, no matter what you do.


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## Jυstin (Oct 20, 2014)

The Uchiha were treasonous threats to the village. The fact that the entire group of traitors happened to be from the same clan is moot. That doesn't exempt them from the consequences of their plotted actions.

Also the US, and even our world's, legal system doesn't mean shit to the laws in Naruto.

I bet if they'd been just a random unrelated members of the village planning to betray the village and attack it, no one would have given a shit if they were taken out. Disgusting.


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## EJ (Oct 20, 2014)

Reiji said:


> There's a difference between justifying, defending, excusing and supporting.



Yes there are differences, but doing any one of those for the Uchiha massacre is sickening.



> It doesn't look like you're even trying to understand me,



What is there to understand? You're lazily siding with Justin on everything he's saying, so I have no qualms to try and get into your psychic as to why you're justifying genocide. 





> Indeed. That was a shot in the deep dark. You can believe me: Even war criminals have the right to get a proper judgment and a lawyer. That's called human rights. And you basically never lose them, no matter what you do.



Ironic how both you and Justin who both support genocide have a hard time with reading comprehension.

I said that war criminals wouldn't be tried as a normal criminal, so comparing it to a simple "murder" case is idiotic given Itachi's track record.




			
				Justin said:
			
		

> I bet if they'd been just a random unrelated members of the village planning to betray the village and attack it, no one would have given a shit if they were taken out. Disgusting.




Projecting the fact that you're a fanboy of a guy that tortured his little brother, killed his own people/committed genocide, captured other bijuu all for "the greater good?"

Cute.


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## Jυstin (Oct 20, 2014)

Flow said:


> Yes, it was specifically stated that time ran out and Danzo acted without Sarutobi's orders.
> 
> -Uchiha are discriminated against
> 
> ...



You do have comprehension. Now backpedal to the part where it said that that Sarutobi's negotiations were falling on deaf ears, and the day of the Uchiha's planned coup approaching. I still can't exactly say, given the circumstances by the time the order was given, that it was the wrong call to make. It was, in fact, a threat.

The Uchiha were going to strike. Konoha simply struck first.



> Yes it was.



No, it wasn't.

It _would have_ been genocide if the Uchiha had been wiped out just for the sake of wiping out the Uchiha. They weren't wiped out because they were part of the same _clan_. They were wiped out because they were part of the same _coup plan_. They just happened to be from the same clan.

THAT is the difference. Like I said, the Uchiha were going to strike Konoha. Konoha just struck first.



> I found Itachi's character interesting and his actions disgusting back then (if he truly did murder his own clan). Once I saw that Kishimoto tried to paint his character as a "gray" character and fanboys try to excuse genocide then I became even more disgusted.



You keep wrongly calling it genocide. That's your problem.



LesExit said:


> "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group"
> 
> How....could it not be genocide? It being genocide is literally just a fact.
> 
> "In 1946 the UN General Assembly declared genocide a punishable crime. By this declaration, genocide by definition may be committed by an *individual*, group, or government, *against one's own people* or another, in peacetime or in wartime." - but clearly Konoha's government didn't give a noodle about the crime they were letting Itachi commit :33



Except the Uchiha weren't wiped out because they were all part of the same clan. They were wiped out because they were all planning a mutiny. Konoha merely struck them before the Uchiha struck. Learn fucking context.

Also, that definition might work here, but it means nothing to the world of Naruto. None of _our _laws do. They have their own.



Flow said:


> Projecting the fact that you're a fanboy of a guy that tortured his little brother, killed his own people/committed genocide, captured other bijuu all for "the greater good?"
> 
> Cute.



Not as much of a fanboy as you are. I'm not still making threads about the guy.

The torture was excessive, but it still did have a reason, and it accomplished that. Itachi went too far, and I don't exactly agree with his methods, but I do still understand _why_ he did it.

The massacre was brutal, but he wasn't deliberately wiping out the Uchiha because they were Uchiha. He did it because they were about to commit high treason. That's what makes it differ from textbook genocide. Hypothetically, if EVERYONE in the entire country of Japan attacked America, and were wiped out because of it, it would not be genocide. They would be war casualties. This was a preemptive strike on a mutinous group. The fact that they were all from the same clan was completely moot. Stop playing the race card.

As an undercover agent within Akatsuki, and as all spies who work undercover within evil organizations, you can't expect to not have to act like them or go along with them for a while blend in. Had you been in Itachi's place, you'd have been found out and kicked out or killed. You obviously don't know how to be a ninja or a spy.


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## Shinobu (Oct 20, 2014)

I'm getting the feeling, that this discussion is pointless. And I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

I'm not lazy, I just don't see any sense in repeating what Justin already wrote.
And whenever you can't answer proper, you're coming up with: "You can't read, you're misreading." etc.

It's not about justifying, defending, excusing or supporting Itachi. It's all about understanding. Or trying to understand the question "*Why* in hell did he kill his whole clan and family?."

Finding reasons and explantions have nothing to do with justifying. Besides you never came up with a serious solution, what else Itachi could have done with only these two options left. (No, talking to someone wasn't an option.)


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## scerpers (Oct 20, 2014)

he was pretty awful. if kishi just kept it as "i wanted to test my power" i could kinda respect that a little, even if it's still stupid

Reactions: Agree 1


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## LesExit (Oct 20, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Except the Uchiha weren't wiped out because they were all part of the same clan. They were wiped out because they were all planning a mutiny. Konoha merely struck them before the Uchiha struck. Learn fucking context.
> 
> Also, that definition might work here, but it means nothing to the world of Naruto. None of _our _laws do. They have their own.


lol the laws clearly don't.  Konoha government was corrupted as hell. Though since the government didn't want the people of Konoha to know that they ordered the massacre it's pretty clear they feared that people would see their actions as messed up. So even if it wasn't a law, it was probably seen as an awful thing . What they were planning on doing doesn't change that it was a genocide. An entire clan was wiped out, in other words, genocide. Just because the word gives people awful feelings doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. Genocide is genocide, people can try to justify it if they want though.


Scerpers said:


> he was pretty awful. if kishi just kept it as "i wanted to test my power" i could kinda respect that a little, even if it's still stupid


I wouldn't have minded if he just remained crazy as hell. Though I like that Kishi tried to add more depth too....kinda


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## EJ (Oct 20, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> You do have comprehension. Now backpedal to the part where it said that that Sarutobi's negotiations were falling on deaf ears, and the day of the Uchiha's planned coup approaching. I still can't exactly say, given the circumstances by the time the order was given, that it was the wrong call to make. It was, in fact, a threat.



No,

We see that Sarutobi kept trying to negotiate with the Uchiha, but there weren't any decisions that were being made. They obviously could of been negotiated with, and Shisui understood if Fugaku was to alter his plans, the clan would follow suit. 

Danzo acted against both negotiations and an attempt to change Fugaku's mind and we get the very genocide that you are trying to justify. 




> The Uchiha were going to strike. Konoha simply struck first.



We don't know if the Uchiha would of went after Konoha if negotiations were made that both sides agreed to, or if Fugaku mind had been changed with Sasuke, something you constantly love to look over because it was something so simple that the "genius" Itachi had looked over. 

He didn't speak out towards his father about the chances of the Uchiha clan succeeding, them having a high chance of either dying or starting a civil war, or even talking about the future Sasuke would have. 



> No, it wasn't.




"I don't want my favorite character to have genocide as one of his accomplishments, so I'll disgustingly disagree as to what genocide is"







> Not as much of a fanboy as you are. I'm not still making threads about the guy.




I think I made about four threads in total about Itachi within the past two years. Are you keeping tabs on me now and going through my thread history?

How many threads have you made about Itachi? How many post have you made defending all of his actions such as 

Committing genocide,

torturing his little brother on more than one occasion,

capturing bijuu,

lying about said genocide and hiding it from the people that reside in the village (information they should know)

and the list goes on




> As an undercover agent within Akatsuki, and as all spies who work undercover within evil organizations, you can't expect to not have to act like them or go along with them for a while blend in. Had you been in Itachi's place, you'd have been found out and kicked out or killed. You obviously don't know how to be a ninja or a spy.




He only aided Akatsuki and helped them accomplish their goals (which they succeeded in at the end of the day).

What the hell? 

Are you saying that I'd make a "terribly spy or ninja?"

Ugh, yeah, I guess so. Unlike you, I wouldn't fathom killing my own family, committing genocide, torturing my younger sibling, and a whole bunch of other crap in order to protect "the village". 

So answer me this, would you be supportive of Americans having their massacres they laid out on other villages in Vietnam covered up? You know, since if news about those incidents got out, they could of hindered the United States. What about other war crimes? 

Would you be supportive of bombing an entire country and killing all of the inhabitants if the majority was against the US? Because that's what you're literally trying to defend. 



Reiji said:


> I'm getting the feeling, that this discussion is pointless. And I'm getting tired of repeating myself.




Either step up and argue an exact point, or quit cheer-leading for Justin. You obviously aren't even reading the majority of what he's saying. If you are, then your reading comprehension is terrible. 


LesExit said:


> lol the laws clearly don't.  Konoha government was corrupted as hell. Though since the government didn't want the people of Konoha to know that they ordered the massacre it's pretty clear they feared that people would see their actions as messed up. So even if it wasn't a law, it was probably seen as an awful thing . What they were planning on doing doesn't change that it was a genocide. An entire clan was wiped out, in other words, genocide. Just because the word gives people awful feelings doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. Genocide is genocide, people can try to justify it if they want though.
> I wouldn't have minded if he just remained crazy as hell. Though I like that Kishi tried to add more depth too....kinda



Exactly.


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## Jυstin (Oct 20, 2014)

LesExit said:


> lol the laws clearly don't.  Konoha government was corrupted as hell. Though since the government didn't want the people of Konoha to know that they ordered the massacre it's pretty clear they feared that people would see their actions as messed up. So even if it wasn't a law, it was probably seen as an awful thing . What they were planning on doing doesn't change that it was a genocide. An entire clan was wiped out, in other words, genocide. Just because the word gives people awful feelings doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. Genocide is genocide, people can try to justify it if they want though.
> I wouldn't have minded if he just remained crazy as hell. Though I like that Kishi tried to add more depth too....kinda



I can give you that much. It still is... technically genocide. It was eliminating an entire race, even if it wasn't just for the sake of eliminating them. I know there were other reasons it was covered up and all put on Itachi to make him out to be a maniac genocide monster. I think a part of the reason why was because news of the coup would have sullied the name of the Uchiha. I think I read that in the manga, or something to that effect. It was partly for the leaders to kinda save face, but also to preserve the Uchiha's honor, by putting it all on Itachi.

I'm not sure how many were in the Uchiha clan. It probably wasn't a huge amount. What I mean is, if it were any other group of people wanting to mutiny the village, who weren't related to each other, it probably wouldn't have been looked on with such disdain. It feels like the only reason people look at it so sourly was because all the people killed were Uchiha. It seems like they're focusing too much on blood and heritage and not the fact that they were wiped out because of what they were planning to do. It had nothing to do with the fact that they were Uchiha (well, Danzou did have ulterior motives, but still).

It did also happen to be genocide... only in the sense that a clan was wiped out, but it was through-and-through a preemptive strike against a dangerous insurrection.



Flow said:


> No,
> 
> We see that Sarutobi kept trying to negotiate with the Uchiha, but there weren't any decisions that were being made. They obviously could of been negotiated with, and Shisui understood if Fugaku was to alter his plans, the clan would follow suit.
> 
> Danzo acted against both negotiations and an attempt to change Fugaku's mind and we get the very genocide that you are trying to justify.



The fact that he had to keep trying is indicative that a resolution was not met, and ultimately all the negotiations up until that point had failed.

In fact, the fact that the Uchiha were planning a mutiny is a pretty obvious sign that the negotiations weren't working.



> We don't know if the Uchiha would of went after Konoha if negotiations were made that both sides agreed to, or if Fugaku mind had been changed with Sasuke, something you constantly love to look over because it was something so simple that the "genius" Itachi had looked over.
> 
> He didn't speak out towards his father about the chances of the Uchiha clan succeeding, them having a high chance of either dying or starting a civil war, or even talking about the future Sasuke would have.



Yes we do. Despite the fact that Hiruzen was trying to negotiate with the Uchiha, they were still "secretly" planning a coup. Come the fuck on.



> "I don't want my favorite character to have genocide as one of his accomplishments, so I'll disgustingly disagree as to what genocide is"



When I thought Itachi was evil at first when he was first shown, I was all for it. Not that I condone genocide, but hating a character for being bad is retarded, at least if you don't hate all the bad characters.

The Uchiha weren't wiped out because they were Uchiha. Just stop.



> I think I made about four threads in total about Itachi within the past two years. Are you keeping tabs on me now and going through my thread history?
> 
> How many threads have you made about Itachi? How many post have you made defending all of his actions such as
> 
> ...



The past doesn't matter. I didn't care to look up your life's story. It's the present I care about. Itachi's not relevant anymore. You just can't get over him.

One doesn't kill their own family with tears in their eyes without some serious reason and thought behind it beforehand. It wasn't a rash decision by a pathological killer; It was a final decision by a group with no options left. As an ANBU, refusing the order would have had serious repercussions, and it ultimately wouldn't have stopped the job from being carried out. Though even if Itachi had committed genocide, you admitted you liked him at first when YOU thought he had committed cold-blooded genocide. You're calling Itachi a terrible character for allegedly committing an act that everyone thought he was guilty of back when you kinda liked him. You're a hypocrite.

You're like a broken record. Itachi went too far, but he wasn't completely unfounded in his reasons to push Sasuke.

It's never shown Itachi capturing a Jinchuuriki, though. You need to prove it. And if he did, so what? You can't function as a spy within an evil organization if you don't believably play along. Otherwise, what the hell are you even doing there? What was he gonna do? Fight them against capturing Bijuu? Fuck all with that idiocy. And you know what else? We know the other members were true loyal members of Akatsuki, who sealed Bijuu, and did terrible things because they were bad people, yet people love them. It's not a reason to call a character terrible. Such hypocrisy comes off as blind hatred.



> lying about said genocide and hiding it from the people that reside in the village (information they should know)
> 
> and the list goes on


 
How the hell did he lie about the genocide? The lie was that he made it seem like he committed genocide. That's what Itachi was known for. He was known for butchering the clan in cold blood. The LIE was covering up the fact that the Uchiha were actually killed because they were planning to attack the village. They had every right to act to stop them.

Stop trying to paint the Uchiha as martyrs.



> He only aided Akatsuki and helped them accomplish their goals (which they succeeded in at the end of the day).
> 
> What the hell?



For one thing, what did you fucking expect from someone who was a spy in the organization? He had to play along. But on the contrary, he was more of a hindrance to their plans than an aid. The most you can say is that he helped the sealing of the Bijuu in the Gedo Mazo, but they could have done it without him, albeit a bit slower. However, against Akatsuki, he:

1. Deliberately steered them away from going after Naruto, to the point where Tobi had to assign the job to Pein.
2. Gave Kakashi information about the Akatsuki's plan in part one (stating what they were after).
3. Kept Tobi away from laying a hand on the village for quite a few years, which is no small issue considering what he did to Minato.
4. Helped provide Sasuke with the power needed to survive, and the power that he used against Tobi in the war.
5. Was an immense and neccessary force in stopping Edo Nagato, who was about to kill Naruto and Bee, which would have ended the alliance.
6. Constantly dished out wise advice that was taken to heart and remembered for chapters to come ("People do not become acknowledged for being Hokage. They become Hokage because they are acknowledged.").
7. Ended the Edo Tensei, which not only aided the alliance greatly, but made it possible for them to even continue.
8. Against Kabuto and after, he provide Sasuke with the conviction to turn away from nihilism and join Konoha in the fight against Akatsuki.



> Are you saying that I'd make a "terribly spy or ninja?"
> 
> Ugh, yeah, I guess so. Unlike you, I wouldn't fathom killing my own family, committing genocide, torturing my younger sibling, and a whole bunch of other crap in order to protect "the village".



Wow, this is worthy of putting you on Ignore for after this reply. I'm not having that shit in my argument. You're going on about the twisted things _Itachi_ did, and you go and cross the line by saying some fucked up shit like this? My mom is the only person really I care about in my life, and I take care of her because she has Multiple Sclerosis. You're a straight up asshole. Fuck you.

Anyway, what reason would I have to kill my own family? I'm not in the position Itachi was in. My family is full of good people, and I don't live in the social structure that people in Naruto live in. I would not be able to take matters into my own hands, even if my family turned out to be treasonous people who were planning to off our leaders and plunge the country into chaos. You're drawing a _terrible_ comparison.



> So answer me this, would you be supportive of Americans having their massacres they laid out on other villages in Vietnam covered up? You know, since if news about those incidents got out, they could of hindered the United States. What about other war crimes?
> 
> Would you be supportive of bombing an entire country and killing all of the inhabitants if the majority was against the US? Because that's what you're literally trying to defend.



No, because those were massacres. It was unnecessary to go that far.

However, if (hypothetically) the ENTIRE country waged war on the US and was combating them, and they got wiped out, then yes it would be a war casualty. I'm talking, no innocent lives. I'm talking they all fought, and were wiped out as a result of that fight. I would not demonize the US because an entire country got wiped out trying to attack the US.

If people who were not involved with the war were intentionally harmed, that is a different story. But according to the manga, Sasuke was the only one too young to know about the coup. He was the only innocent one. It's part of why Itachi wanted to spare him. The Uchiha were not innocent victims. They were not martyrs or bystanders.

This argument's going in circles anyway, but I'm also not having that asshole personal character assault shit in my argument. You're taking it a bit too personally and seriously over an anime character who's been dead for how long now. So, bye bye.


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## Shinobu (Oct 21, 2014)

> Either step up and argue an exact point, or quit cheer-leading for Justin. You obviously aren't even reading the majority of what he's saying. If you are, then your reading comprehension is terrible.




Mine? 

Have to think about it, will answer later.


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## PinkPunkPossum (Oct 21, 2014)

A few things you all are forgetting:

-Uchihas were being opressed by konoha since 2? hokage, that,s why they planned the coup. They werent being evil just because.
-Shisui was going to resolve everything but Danzo stole his eyes being the cause of the massacre (also the 3rd fault, he admited it to Sasuke)
-Itachi admited that Sasuke could have stopped the coup
-They hid the truth about the massacre because Itachi wanted to keep the Uchiha name clean


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## Jυstin (Oct 21, 2014)

^ Exactly. This thread wrongly assumes that they tried to cover up genocide, when that's what they went out of their way to make it look like. They hid the truth not to hide genocide (cause that was the story), but for the Uchiha not to fall to disgrace.

Reactions: Like 1


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## EJ (Oct 21, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> The fact that he had to keep trying is indicative that a resolution was not met, and ultimately all the negotiations up until that point had failed.



Negotiations were failing, that doesn't mean "They would had never worked". Danzo saw that they hadn't reached a decisision and decided to act without Sarutobi giving him the go.

Danzo is implied to be a villain, rash, ruthless, and cold. The Uchiha genocide is implied as to "never had been an option" since the beginning of the series. The only people that are defending the Uchiha being killed are

1. People that hate Uchiha and generalize them all constantly.

2. People that love Itachi, and want him to be looked at in a positive light, and want his decisions and planning to be "sound, perfect, and clean". In fact, many of the decisions he made were completely sloppy, but I'm not going to get into that within this argument. Here is a canon quote:



> Though the Third Hokage Hiruzen Sarutobi, who did not agree with the treatment being dealt to the Uchiha,[2][5] attempted to achieve a peaceful resolution with the clan, *Danzō Shimura  who was not one to wait around for peaceful negotiations  convinced Itachi that slaughtering his entire clan was the only way to avert war,*




I don't understand why I have to keep pointing this out to you. Do you really think that Danzo and the elders were willing to reach an absolute negotiation with the Uchiha? No, he wanted to eliminate them from Konoha due to himself being power-hungry and wanted to run up the ranks. Itachi didn't see this, and Danzo exploited Itachi's hate for warfare. Again, how can you not see this?

I will say this again since I'm sure you read over this constantly,

How can you keep ignoring the fact that Danzo didn't want to wait for "peaceful negotiations"? Danzo wanted the entire clan dead as soon as he heard of the coup. He didn't care for "negotiations", he saw them as a problem for him and he didn't want to deal with the stress of them reaching higher positions and didn't like the idea of the village being under attack of a civil war. The threat was there, no one is denying this. 

Again, read what I just typed since you have a habit of rolling over this information and you'll type a "what if" or "Maybe Itachi already"..

Itachi couldn't see past what Danzo was trying to do, and in the end it screwed not only him, but his clan and his brother. 





> The Uchiha weren't wiped out because they were Uchiha. Just stop.



They were all killed, and even non ninjas were killed as well. The idea was to wipe them all out and for not a single Uchiha to live so they could get 'revenge' or something equivalent. It was genocide, stop trying to pass it like it wasn't. 




> The past doesn't matter. I didn't care to look up your life's story. It's the present I care about. Itachi's not relevant anymore. You just can't get over him.



So I make two threads discussing one of your favorite characters talking bad about him in a negative light and you don't like it? Tough shit, if you don't want to read it or it bothers you so much you're welcome to stop posting within the thread.




> One doesn't kill their own family with tears in their eyes




waaaaah


waaaaah

Go cry some more, and quit playing up an emotional appeal for what Itachi did in order to make it seem like "well, he was crying so that excuses his behavior"

A lot of serial killers hate what they become, and I recall reading about one that wrote in his victim's blood on the wall

"HELP ME"

Does that mean they should be excused for their actions completely and looked at in a sympathetic manner and their actions being "understandable"?




> You're like a broken record. Itachi went too far, but he wasn't completely unfounded in his reasons to push Sasuke.



Yeah, torturing his little brother, telling him to kill his best friend, breaking his arm, and telling him to live a life full of hatred sure wasn't completely "unfounded"

You have a warped mindset. 



> It's never shown Itachi capturing a Jinchuuriki, though.



Back to this argument again?

Yeah, you know what? It never really showed Kisame grabbing the Jin either. Maybe they picked the guy up when he was sleeping. I mean, we don't see either Kisame or Itachi attempting to capture the Jin.

You'd be ignoring Itachi distracting Team 7 so they couldn't help rescue Gaara, but that doesn't matter either right? It's not like he actually TARGETED Gaara, he just provided the distraction for another team to come rescue him.

Do you not see how it's not a coincidence that you've been defending Itachi in every single thing he had a plan in doing? You're even alright with him rolling with a terrorist group and helping them out.



> How the hell did he lie about the genocide? The lie was that he made it seem like he committed genocide. That's what Itachi was known for. He was known for butchering the clan in cold blood. The LIE was covering up the fact that the Uchiha were actually killed because they were planning to attack the village. They had every right to act to stop them.




Yeah, again your habit of manipulating the story and leaving stuff out is disgusting

But I'll number it out since you have the inability to consider everything that happened.

1. Uchiha and Senju form village

2. Senju don't trust Uchiha, and discriminate against them

3. Uchiha eventually catch on from what Madara told them awhile ago 

4. Kyuubi attack, Uchiha are blamed more when it had nothing to do with the clan in it's entirety and only one individual 

5. Uchiha decide to stage coup due to being blamed and being discriminated against even more

6. Sarutobi finds out, and wants to attempt peaceful negotiations. Elders and Danzo aren't supportive with Sarutobi on the matter at all, and what the Uchiha dead.

7. Shisui attempts to mind trick Fugaku into accepting the negotiations, but *Danzo stops this attempt due to his power lust and not wanting anything to do with the Uchiha negotiations*

8. Itachi (knowing what Danzo did) still targets and slaughters his clan before negotiations could of possibly been made

9. Konoha lies and covers up how the genocide occured

10. You not wanting to accept any of this


> > Wow, this is worthy of putting you on Ignore for after this reply. I'm not having that shit in my argument. You're going on about the twisted things _Itachi_ did, and you go and cross the line by saying some fucked up shit like this? My mom is the only person really I care about in my life, and I take care of her because she has Multiple Sclerosis. You're a straight up asshole. Fuck you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rain (Oct 22, 2014)

Just end this horrible abomination of a thread.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Jυstin (Oct 22, 2014)

All it accomplishes is keeping Itachi relevant. People will still be making threads about him after the series ends. I swear he must be the Naruto character with the most threads made about him. "Not interesting or controversial" my ass.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 18, 2014)

I couldn't care less about the Uchiha Massacre.

I think Itachi is shit because he ruined Sasuke's life for no goddam reason. Sasuke was learning to be happy in the village, to forget his obsession with vengeance, and to love his team.

Then itachi came, mindraped him, and that sent Sasuke on a spiral of pain and suffering for a long, long time.

It was all Itachi's fault and it served no purpose except Itachi "felt bad" about what he did and wanted to die. And instead of having the balls to do it himself, he forced Sasuke into the role.

This is the brother the narrative tries to say loved Sasuke oh so much and yet he is responsible for causing Sasuke horrific pain and ensuring he went through even worse pain in the future.


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## Chaquo (Nov 22, 2014)

Radice said:


> Orochimaru is as always a villain.
> Kishimoto never tried to excuse  his actions.
> 
> Itachi should always be a villain.
> ...


So basically you're saying that a character can't make a decision in a no-win situation without being bad?


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## Rifulofthewest (Jun 4, 2018)

Taijukage said:


> if anyones interested, im making a video on why itachi was at worst, an evil scumbag and at best, a very twisted anti villain.


You do it? I want to see that video!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Jun 4, 2018)

He has cool and practical Jutsu(Ama,Susanoo,Ephemeral), however I don't like the fact that he is too cold. I mean that he has zero reaction(besides his childhood flashbacks). When he is angry,sad, etc. he always has poker face. I also don't his analysis(he thinks that with knowledge,intelligence and MS, he can't beat almost everyone).


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## Rifulofthewest (Jun 4, 2018)

Itachi is the worst naruto character:
Itachi is a gary stu, whose actions have no logic or intelligence behind, but he, the rest of the cast and Kishimoto was still pretended that he does:
Itachi decides to assassinate his entire clan without thinking of any alternative: he could have told Hiruzen everything about Danzo; he could have warned the uchiha that they had been discovered so that they would flee; he could have revealed to the public the problem and force the clan and the government to agree, but nooo, he decided that his family was full of ignorant people too foolish to live and decided to kill them.
Itachi has no authority to decide whether the truth comes to light or not, but still asks Naruto (and he accepts because he is a idiot brat) supposedly to protect the honor of his family, when all these are dead because he I betray them and kill them. It seems to me very daring and insufferable for his part to believe that he can decide on those things, who he thinks he is?
Itachi, theoretically a loving brother who loves his brother above all things, does not stop shattering Sasuke's life just because he is an eoist who wants to "redeem himself" by being killed by the last uchiha left alive, which he does not deserve. He did not even want to see sasuke for the last time, much less be forgiven. Poor Sasuke, he seemed to have dependency syndrome with him, always desperate looking for something that would excuse his beloved brother
He only deserve to die by commit suicide alone in a corner.
Sasuke should not have tried to understand, he should have spat on his face every time they met.
Then his change to a strangely cheerful guy during the tensei edo does not make much sense, except that the boy must be rested, since after the truth is revealed, whenever someone talks about him it is to make him a blowjob

At the end, Itachi was a estremist mercenary who thought he was so smart as to decide who deserved to live and who to die, and who remained proud of murder his family,  trying to brainwash Sasuke (and Kabuto, who , for some reasong remember Itachi to himself) and blaming the victims for the glory of a military goverment who discrimine his family during generations.

The rant about the killing of the Schrödinger uchiha children, whether they exist or not at the same time, is absurd, there is no logical reason why the uchihas did not have more children than Sasuke, but it seems even worse that there are people who believe that they existed but that even though they deserved to die, for me, that the children were aware of what they were going to do does not entitle anyone to kill them, they are still children and if you are capable of killing them you are rotten inside, especially because the warriors of konoha are constantly show that they  know how to stop someone without killing him (if we consider Suigetsu and his conversation with Sasuke to be true), so the excuse of self-defense would not be valid here.
It reminds me of the supposed moral dimela on if you could travel to the past and kill Hitler being a baby, it is absurd to think that someone who is not a mental bastard could hurt a newborn child, because in that moment he is not Hitler, he is a child and killing him does not make you a hero, it only makes you a monster that has killed a child for something he has not even done, and that dont have anythig similar with the real heros, who put their lives in danger to kill the real Hitler.
Following the theories of natural law, there are several reasons why this is wrong (these are part of the human rights recognized by the UN - or as it is said in English):
One: the theory that uchiha children deserve to die to prevent that they can hold a grudge against the village, is really breaking a basic rule in law, you can not punish someone if he has not yet committed the crime, in this case goes further, since the presumed was not even based on a reality, it was the possibility that this intention was given, neither Danzo nor Itachi are God, none of them knows what the uchiha children would want to do in the future or if that really can represent a dangeronly decide kill them to save theirself to a problem that does not exist (and that they created in the first place). This is the logic by which many countries enclose homosexuals just for being gay in jail in order to prevent they do not abuse children.
By the way, about if konoha force had to wait for the uchiha to attack to attack them: Yes, self-defense or the defense of legitimate interests is only used when they are not only intentions, but the action that causes the damage is produced. In addition, the negotiations had not been closed, the uchiha were not going to attack.
Two: the guilt for association is a crime of state: the guilt for a crime is not shared or inherited in the criminal, and, in Naruto, the relatives of the uchiha who supported the coup are murdered just for being a family of coup-makers . That is called terrorismo de estado in my language.
Three: the proportionality of the measure is exaggerated, a coup d'etat is not punishable by death, except in dystopian countries such as Saudi Arabia, etc. And in any case, it does not matter, since it condemns people at random or by asociation.
Four and last: this to be the most controversial point of all: *avoid a war is not enough to commit a genocide*. All of you have no idea of right or moral, you are absurd, you only think that because the manga and the anime has told you that genocide a people is preferable to confronts him directly because you could lost something. This is not true, genocide is much worse than a war: the war does not go except those who fight, and they have a change to survive, in the genocide a people is exterminated when they cant defence theirselfs like animals in the slaughterhouse.
Following your logic, the allies, especially the Americans, who had nothing at stake, should not have intervened in the Nazi offensives, and let they do what they want, could evit the Second World War.

Leaving the laws aside, in a morally way, you can not defended that to protect the town it can be justified to kill others. The children of the ninjas of the village had no more right to live than the children of the uchiha, it seems mentally ill to think that since they were the children of the other side their death was more justifiable, you defend the genocide based on demonizing a group of the human population, there is no difference in that group, which is "not so bad" to kill, is differentiated by belonging to a family that the reason is their race, sexual orientation or religion.

Some points:
The excuse of "masacred to avoid a war" is absurd.
First of all because no one attacked Konoha after being reduced to ashes twice, which, I believe, leaves Konoha more vulnerable than a coup d'état.
Second, because the possibility that a coup d'etat, which would not even have worked since they had lost the element of surprise, could lead to a world war is ridiculously absurd, world wars are not given for those reasons and I find it hard to believe that a clan massacred by two people in one night is capable of altering Konoha so much that it can be attacked easily, konoha is the ruling nation of the Naruto world, a little bit of seriousness, please!
and third, the only three people who say that the uchiha genocide was necessary because they would create a world war, or at least a civil war, are the only three people that no one should believe because of their participation in that massacre.

Actually there is a reason why kishimoto and his fascist idea of heroism, did not show more children among uchiha, he, like any writer, knows that there are simply things that the reader does not tolerate, and the main one is the murder of certain victims : pregnant women, elderly people and babies-children. It is not a coincidence that the dead that are seen are all mature men and that they are face down, so that their face can not be seen
Kishimoto may seem like a sympathizer of Japanese fascism, defending historical revisionism, biological determinism and the extermination of a human group for being a possible danger to the state (one especially horrible, the world of Madara was dystopian, but is that konoha looks like created in an Orwel novel, where a state is dedicated to training child soldiers to use them as hit men and genocides any dissident in their ranks, since it is not only the uchiha, it is that the penalty for trying to leave the village is death , imagine that the one who flees is an ambu that just wanted to plant potatoes and stop killing! But again, kishimoto makes a manipulation of a more probably way in that reality and only takes out dissidents who for some mysterious reason want to go to konoha to kill puppies, and so justifies a law that in this world would be considered state terrorism, instead of the poor man who only wanted to plant potatoes), but Kishimoto is not so stupid as not to know what to draw a "hero" stabbing I walk a baby in its cradle, it would transform it into a monster for non-fanatic readers. We only have to see that there are people who doubt the existence of that baby, or maintain that Obito did, pretending as if that excused that Itachi was to beg him to stab the baby for him, since he did not dare.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Izumi Uchiha (Jun 4, 2018)

I don't think he was a bad character, but some things were badly written like the Uchiha massacre and how he was supposed to be good all along.


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## Shinobi1jutsu (Jun 5, 2018)

I understand your point, but I have to disagree with you.

Just because a character commits a heinous act, does not make them a terrible character. Even characters that are totally evil like Orochimaru aren't necessarily terrible characters. Without evil villains, the Naruto series would be pretty boring! In a series like Naruto, you need the dark to appreciate the light, characters like Itachi are depicted to embody both qualities. This makes the character more complex, as he is conflicted both within himself and with others. I think the character Itachi was conceptualized to be a utilitarian with regard to his ethics.

Utilitarianism is a ethical ideology that states that one must do whatever is necessary to do the least harm, even if you have to do harm to prevent a greater harm. An example of this would be... if there was a train, and it was going to run over fifty people, and you have the lever that you can pull to switch the train to another tract, saving 50 lives, but... on the other tract there are three small children. You have a decision to make.... you can kill three to save fifty, or... you can just let fifty people die. Utilitarianism states that the only ethical thing to do is pull the lever... and, kill three to save fifty. There is a certain amount of logic behind this interpretation of ethics, despite the fact that it is on the darker side of morality, and even though many people might find it abhorrent... it makes sense.

If you saw the latest Avenger's movie, "Infinity Wars," you can see this ideology with the plot's villain Thanos. Thanos is under the impression that the universe has very finite amount of resources, and he reasons that there is too much life in the universe to sustain itself with the resources that are available, and concludes that the only viable solution to this problem, is to eradicate HALF of the all of the life in the universe, hence saving the universe from a collapse and mass extinction of ALL LIFE! Now... lets ignore the fact that this makes NO SENSE for a variety of reasons! There are without a doubt...MANY reasons why Thanos' premise makes no sense, and undoubtedly there are/were MANY much better solutions available!!! However.... for the sake of illustrating a point, let's pretend Thanos' is right, and that his solution is the only way to preserve life in the universe, then... if that were really the case... Thanos is actually a hero! Despite all the obvious flaws in his thinking, Thanos believes in what he is doing, and see's his actions as a necessary evil, that serves the greater good. I don't think Thanos is a terrible character, he is an interesting villain, with a misguided sense of what is good.

Obito and Madara Uchiha were the same... in a way, they weren't just recklessly evil. They truly believed that the "Infinite Tsykoyomi" was the only possible path to world peace! They thought of themselves as heroes! Doing a necessary evil to accomplish a greater good! Sure, there are plenty of reasons why their objective is actually a bad thing, but in their own minds... they are doing good! They are exhibiting utilitarian logic, although it is flawed. However, this doesn't make them "terrible characters" it makes them very interesting ones. They are complex, they come across as more "real," because they are like us... not totally good or evil, but somewhere in-between. I think that a good series needs characters like these.

Compared to all the other three Utilitarian characters I mentioned (Thanos, Obito, Madara)... Itachi's reasoning actually makes the most sense. Thanos', Obito's, and Madara's plans had obvious and very possible... superior solutions! Itachi did not. Itachi's situation was more like the train example. He essentially had only two choices...   


1. Do nothing... Let the Uchiha clan murder the Hokage, create a civil war in the village that results in thousands and thousands of dead villagers, shinobi, men, women, and children. Allow the devastation to completely destabilize the Leaf Village, so that the other major Ninja Villages come in, and fight with each other and with what is left of the Leaf Village in a Ninja World War... that will result in tens of thousands of lives lost, and will result in the absolute extinction of all Leaf people.

OR

2. Murder his own clan, of a few hundred... and, completely prevent ALL of that!




Unlike the situation with Thanos, Obito, and Madara... there wasn't really any obvious and possible alternative solutions to Itachi's problem. The Uchiha were absolutely committed to their wicked plan, and the result of their actions would have resulted in the scenario I provided above. Hiruzen's only solution was to talk to them, which could have NEVER worked with the Uchiha. The series was clear in that Hiruzen was always completely unable to do the necessary "dark" things that had to be done! This is why Hiruzen let Orochimaru live, even after he knew all the horrific things Orochimaru was doing. Think of all the lives Orochimaru destroyed in all of his hideouts all over the world!!! Hiruzen's inability to kill Orochimaru when he discovered him doing what he was doing... resulted in Orochimaru killing thousands of innocent people, experimenting on thousands more, destroying countless lives! All because Hiruzen wasn't willing and/or able to do necessary "dark" things that had to be done. Hiruzen himself KNEW that he had this weakness, and that is EXACTLY WHY Hiruzen chose to allow Danzo to do all his "dark deeds." Hiruzen even sparred Danzo's life, after he knew Danzo tried to assassinate him! Hiruzen put him in charge of the foundation, because he knew Danzo would do the "dark deeds" that needed to be done, that even Hiruzen realized were necessary, but just couldn't do. Hiruzen didn't even want to know what Danzo was up to, because he knew that he couldn't handle it. 

Hiruzen had no viable plan to stop the devastation and utter chaos that the Uchiha were going to unleash. What other viable options did Itachi have?! Itachi loved the Leaf, and wanted to save it from utter destruction, and he did what he thought was the only logical thing to do. Itachi was a utilitarian, but unlike Thanos, Obito, and Madara... he was tortured by what he did. He experienced deep shame, regret, and guilt over doing what he thought was necessary, and was willing to suffer eternal loneliness and death for doing what he felt was absolutely necessary! He was willing to accept being universally seen as a villain, and for no one to even know WHY he did it, to preserve the Uchiha memory. Itachi received NOTHING positive for doing what he did, to gain whatsoever... he did what he did because he thought it was the ONLY way to prevent an even greater tragedy, and for no other reason. That doesn't make him a terrible character, I think it makes him a very interesting one. Whether you agree with him or not, you can understand why he did what he did, and there is a certain "twisted/insane nobility" about him, because he did what he thought was the only way to prevent the utter annihilation of the entire village, by annihilating his entire clan. 

Its like if a Zombie bites your arm, and there is no cure... so, you are going to die, and become a zombie yourself, OR... you could chop off your arm before it spreads! Its an awful choice, but if it is the ONLY way to save your life... what choice do you have?! That is what Itachi did, and he suffered every second, of every day for making that choice, even though it was the only way.

I think that makes him pretty interesting! Even if you think he is a purely evil, maleficent, wicked, vile, unforgivable, demonic, bastard... he is still interesting, and the fact that he evokes a powerful emotion in you is proof of that! Even if you can NEVER like him, on some level... you can understand him. Just think... the entire series of Naruto could not have even happened if Itachi hadn't done what he did. Naruto was a powerless... Non-Uchiha child, he would have been murdered in the Uchiha mutiny war! Think of all the thousands of other innocent non-ninja villagers that would have been murdered! Women and children included! It would have been many times more than the innocents among the Uchiha that Itachi killed. Its like the Zombie-Arm thing. You sacrifice a part to save the whole. I hope you can see Itachi in a new light after my explanation. We all have characters that we love and hate, but I think you can at least understand Itachi. I absolutely HATE Sasuke many... Many... MANY times more than you hate Itachi, and my problem with Sasuke is that he is evil for no reason, and with no logic behind it! He is evil just because he's mad! Then, he talks to some dead Hokage, decides out of nowhere to stop being evil, and thinks he deserves to be the Hokage?! He's just such a narcissistic, entitled sociopath that I can't stand him!!! I imagine that's how you feel about Itachi, but at least he has solid reasoning behind his evil deeds. He's complex and even contradictory, but is definitely an interesting character.


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## Rifulofthewest (Jun 5, 2018)

Have marvel films accommodated the motivation to thanos? Well, I was surprised that everyone on the internet was in internet saying that Thanos was the best villain since Darth Vader, but they have made it more absurd! The infinite gauntlet can change / create matter, if his motivation to kill the half of existence is not to impress death but try to divide up limited recources, what sense does it have that if he can resolve the problem simply make resources for everyone?
Bah, it does not matter.

It does not bother me that the characters are cruel, it bothers me that the autor try to justify their cruelty (understanding justifying how to give valid arguments for her, not that they do not need to have a backstorie that explains their behavior, they need to not be bad for being bad), that's why I prefer the magnificent full-fledged batards and monsters like Griffith, Shira, Irako Seigen (I'm not sure of him, since he was still a better person than Fujiki and the big villain is supposed to be society, but the narrative makes it clear what is a bastard, so i think he counts) or Johan Liebert, or Frolo, who is the best disney villain to date and just for being a pig.
And in Naruto, Danzo was a consistent villain, his motivations and actions were clear and he does not have any kind of hole in his cararterization (which can not be said of Orochimaru, that character we all remember for wanting to be a good father): a loser who tried by all ways to become Hokage and protect the village because he wanted to feel someone. No crying past, no one to say how good it was or how much he loved the villa.
In fact, the utilitarism is not used correctly in ficction, the only character who used that enough well is the doctor octopus when he was spiderman, and he screew that
The problem with the utilitarian philosophy, as I have said about the theory of Danzo and Itachi, is that the result must be enough great to justify the damage produced, and in this case, avoid possible war, it is not enough to commit a genocide.
On the other hand, following the utilitarian philosophy does not correctly maintain the idea that Itachi was a "real pacifist".
Also, he has done very silly things apart from the massacre: he knows that Danzo wants to kill Sasuke and leaves him in Konoha without anyone being able to protect him, except for a guy who apparently does not give a shit (seriously, the Uchiha massacre leaves Hiruzen very bad), on the other hand, to those time he should know that Danzo plans to do something against Hiruzen, however he does not say anything; and the worst, it does not make sense to tell a child, who is already quite stupid by himself, that to achieve his only goal in life is to kill his best friend. If Sasuke does it, his plan to kill him and be a hero would go to hell, and they would chase Sasuke for a traitor (Which they should have done, that sasuke goes with the guy who destroyed the village). And, it does not even make sense that Itachi, a supposed loving brother, sees that Sasuke is reacing his life, but still decides to shake him so that he will want revenge again. Itachi should know that being a hero is not worth it.


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## Lady Hinata (Jun 5, 2018)

_Yes_.
I hate Itachi tbh.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Uchiha Madara (Jun 5, 2018)

He committed ethnic cleansing for a military dictatorship that uses child soldiers and got portrayed as a good guy for it. Then tried to enslave his brother to said military dictatorship.

Also, he's the biggest Gary Stu in the manga aside from maybe war arc Naruto. The amount of forced dialogue just to wank him was insane.

He wasn't that bad until he got brought back though. He was at least less of a Gary Stu.

The thing is, the plot twist itself made some sense: I always had the feeling there was more to the massacre than "just because" (remember how reluctant he was to kill Asuma and Kurenai, certainly didn't seem like the guy to kill "just because"), what didn't make sense was portraying Itachi as a good guy for it. He was not, both him and Konoha were in the wrong. Which is why I don't understand why Sasuke forgave him back when he was all "Imma destroy Konoha." If anything he should have been like "fuck that traitor Itachi but fuck Konoha more."

Also he probably has the worst fanbase of any fictional character. "Itachi solos Thanos Totsuka gg" - some Itachi fanboy probably. Worse yet is Kishi himself seems to be among that fanbase. He could probably make Itachi pull some bullshit out of his ass to beat Kaguya or Madara.

I like the idea of his character, my problem is him being portrayed as a good guy and the utter Gary Stu he turns into after being revived. Him doing it for Konoha is fine, him being portrayed as a good guy because of it is not.

A better way to portray him would have been as everything wrong with the ninja system. The end result of ideas like "you don't matter, your family doesn't matter, the village is above all", "you are a tool of the village" and "child soldiers are fine." A bit like Gaara and Zabuza.

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Rifulofthewest (Jun 5, 2018)

Emperor Palpatine said:


> A better way to portray him would have been as everything wrong with the ninja system. The end result of ideas like "you don't matter, your family doesn't matter, the village is above all", "you are a tool of the village" and "child soldiers are fine." A bit like Gaara and Zabuza.



Totally agree.
After the revelation about Itachi, I was thought that was the idea that Kishimoto was going to follow, something like Itachi crying because he tried to prevent the massacre but in the end they forced him to kill his fathers and all his entire family (with something else that the assumption of a possibility that he had created a war), saying something like being a ninja is bullshit and that he hates the world sistem, only with more poetic words. But instead, kishi decided that he was proud of that and that there was nothing wrong with what he had done, or with what he was forced to do.
Or he could simply have been portrayed as the dangerous fanatic that he really is, convinced that what he was doing was fine but that he actually has the brain sucked, something like what Sai is, but harder
In the end, the only one who is not proud of what he is forced to do is kakashi and has little or no will to try to change something or say something, so no one in naruto wordl thinks that the ninja sistem is a crapsac world.


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## Uchiha Madara (Jun 5, 2018)

Rifulofthewest said:


> Totally agree.
> After the revelation about Itachi, I was thought that was the idea that Kishimoto was going to follow, something like Itachi crying because he tried to prevent the massacre but in the end they forced him to kill his fathers and all his entire family (with something else that the assumption of a possibility that he had created a war), saying something like being a ninja is bullshit and that he hates the world sistem, only with more poetic words. But instead, kishi decided that he was proud of that and that there was nothing wrong with what he had done, or with what he was forced to do.
> Or he could simply have been portrayed as the dangerous fanatic that he really is, convinced that what he was doing was fine but that he actually has the brain sucked, something like what Sai is, but harder
> In the end, the only one who is not proud of what he is forced to do is kakashi and has little or no will to try to change something or say something, so no one in naruto wordl thinks that the ninja sistem is a crapsac world.



Funnily enough, I remember Naruto not liking the whole "you are supposed to be a tool" thing and promising Zabuza he'll do something about it once he became Hokage. Would really have liked to see the series take that route. Actually acknowledge how fucked up the ninja system is (I guess Kishi sort of did that... sometimes) and do something to change it instead of just empty promises from Naruto. But nope Konoha's still using child soldiers, and still covering up the Uchiha massacre (basically Holocaust denial).

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## Rifulofthewest (Jun 5, 2018)

Emperor Palpatine said:


> Funnily enough, I remember Naruto not liking the whole "you are supposed to be a tool" thing and promising Zabuza he'll do something about it once he became Hokage. Would really have liked to see the series take that route. Actually acknowledge how fucked up the ninja system is (I guess Kishi sort of did that... sometimes) and do something to change it instead of just empty promises from Naruto. But nope Konoha's still using child soldiers, and still covering up the Uchiha massacre (basically Holocaust denial).


Yeah, but all of that happens before he was the reincarnation of the son of god...so now is good, because he is in the top and not in the ground, i supose, because Naruto never say nothing of change the sistem again.


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## The Great One (Jun 6, 2018)

Shinobi1jutsu said:


> I understand your point, but I have to disagree with you.
> 
> Just because a character commits a heinous act, does not make them a terrible character. Even characters that are totally evil like Orochimaru aren't necessarily terrible characters. Without evil villains, the Naruto series would be pretty boring! In a series like Naruto, you need the dark to appreciate the light, characters like Itachi are depicted to embody both qualities. This makes the character more complex, as he is conflicted both within himself and with others. I think the character Itachi was conceptualized to be a utilitarian with regard to his ethics.
> 
> ...


Orochimaru is not a terrible cause he is treated like a scumbag that he is. 

Itachi is a terrible character cause he is treated like a perfect hero that he is not.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 3 | Informative 1


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## Courier Six (Jun 6, 2018)

Shouldn't you people have made your own thread instead of necroing an old one


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## Rifulofthewest (Jun 6, 2018)

Singulrality said:


> Shouldn't you people have made your own thread instead of necroing an old one


I dont know how do that.


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## Milliardo (Jun 6, 2018)

Rifulofthewest said:


> I dont know how do that.


It should say "Post New Thread" around the top area. It's highlighted and all.


Itachi is a terrible character because he is poorly written. His plans for Sasuke are contradicting, his backstory doesn't make sense like how he seen war at 4, and his love for Konoha was never explained.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## butcher50 (Jun 6, 2018)

Itachi is Kishi's self-insert.


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## Toph (Jun 6, 2018)

butcher50 said:


> Itachi is Kishi's self-insert.



Well, Kishi's from a country who still denies the Nanking massacre ever happened, so it's no surprise that Itachi is his author avatar.

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## Uchiha Madara (Jun 6, 2018)

Milliardo said:


> It should say "Post New Thread" around the top area. It's highlighted and all.
> 
> 
> Itachi is a terrible character because he is poorly written. His plans for Sasuke are contradicting, his backstory doesn't make sense like how he seen war at 4, and his love for Konoha was never explained.



Will of Fire indoctrination too stronk


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## Mongolia (Jun 6, 2018)

Read my post to answer your question. 

The argument that Itachi did the wrong thing is very Kantian. Now you speak about genocide @EJ. What do you think of Kant's lying-maxim when a nazi officer asks someone who hides his jewish friend whether he was hiding someone?


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## Rai (Jun 6, 2018)

All hail the King


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## MShadows (Jun 6, 2018)

There's a mistake here. 

Itachi is a great character, definitely one of the best in Naruto. 

The problem with Itachi is his fandom tho.

Reactions: Friendly 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Alita (Jun 7, 2018)

Itachi was great as a villain and bad guy. He went to shit when kishi decided to make him a good guy and dick ride him.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Sequester (Jun 7, 2018)

Honestly I always thought the Itachi plot was an odd one... I never understood the whole Uchiha tension and why it couldn't be resolved.. The entire ordeal was completely the 3rd hokage's fault, allowing Danzo to fuck the shit out of him in influence enough to be unable to see any sort of resolution.

And Itachi... Someone so gentle and pacifist saw the best course of action was to completely murder his clan and to leave his brother hating him enough that he was willing to abandon Konoha to be trained by a pedo with a snake fetish. Swell plan Itachi... I mean, you were only following the orders of a character who has little official authority within the city... I dunno, perhaps genocide of your people might be something you'd want to run by the 3rd... Just to be on the safe side.

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## Rifulofthewest (Jun 7, 2018)

Mongolia said:


> Read my post to answer your question.
> 
> The argument that Itachi did the wrong thing is very Kantian. Now you speak about genocide @EJ. What do you think of Kant's lying-maxim when a nazi officer asks someone who hides his jewish friend whether he was hiding someone?


First, Kant did not lie, he was right.
Second, why would you tell a Nazi that you have a Jew hidden? He would kill you with mere suspicion, in any case, people who do not have a psychopath brain would be silent without knowing that answering or begging, would not say "yes sir, kill him" with all the tranquility of the world.
The idea that human dignity is prior to Kant, in any case, Kant, like most philosophers of his age, always stayed away from the material world and did not value that society was the one that produced an effect or another because it aspired to the great science.
Even with that, Kant is still the second best German philosopher, the theories of objectivism or utilitarianism that you use to criticize him are nothing but delusions of grandeur a group of egolatras that to maintain their position of privilege created a pseudo-philosophical theory to justify that reality , in which the suprahuman subject of Nietzschean inspiration has the right to be at the top of civilization and to give more value to their own desires than the one that gives to the real needs of the rest of the people, because it is considered that their position himself as the center of the world and perfectly capable of deciding that his opinion is better than the rest and therefore, perfectly impose by force the "rabble" that is under his greatness.
Itachi is no one to decide if killing the uchiha was a better option, because from the beginning, there was no reason to support one side or the other, since it is a confrontation between the leaders of the uchiha clan and their desire for power over the leaders of Konoha and their desperation to maintain power.
Until the massacre did not occur, it was a question of fighting between noble clans, but when Konoha decided that to keep the Senju clan as the ruling class of the Konoha society, it was necessary to make a genocide, the problem stopped being a struggle for the power and happened to be an extermination planned by the ruling class, and, to continue with Kant, that if it is categorically evil.
Itachi, Naruto, Shisui, all of them are just people with their brains washed to believe in the prevailing ideology, even if his ouwn eyes can see all bad in it. The difference is that itachi wants to be a method to protect the hegemonic thinking of the Konohana society by exterminating the dissidents and their families and still be proud.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Mongolia (Jun 7, 2018)

Rifulofthewest said:


> First, Kant did not lie, he was right.
> Second, why would you tell a Nazi that you have a Jew hidden? He would kill you with mere suspicion, in any case, people who do not have a psychopath brain would be silent without knowing that answering or begging, would not say "yes sir, kill him" with all the tranquility of the world.
> The idea that human dignity is prior to Kant, in any case, Kant, like most philosophers of his age, always stayed away from the material world and did not value that society was the one that produced an effect or another because it aspired to the great science.
> Even with that, Kant is still the second best German philosopher, the theories of objectivism or utilitarianism that you use to criticize him are nothing but delusions of grandeur a group of egolatras that to maintain their position of privilege created a pseudo-philosophical theory to justify that reality , in which the suprahuman subject of Nietzschean inspiration has the right to be at the top of civilization and to give more value to their own desires than the one that gives to the real needs of the rest of the people, because it is considered that their position himself as the center of the world and perfectly capable of deciding that his opinion is better than the rest and therefore, perfectly impose by force the "rabble" that is under his greatness.
> ...



Those are a lot of words. Do you know what Kant's categorical imperative is?


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## Corvida (Jun 7, 2018)

> Until the massacre did not occur, it was a question of fighting between noble clans, but when Konoha decided that to keep the Senju clan as the ruling class of the Konoha society, it was necessary to make a genocide, the problem stopped being a struggle for the power and happened to be an extermination planned by the ruling class, and, to continue with Kant, that if it is categorically evil.



And the funniest thing is--the village was created to avoid precisely what happened-one founding clan cornered  and  eliminated the other.
Total success.

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## Rifulofthewest (Jun 7, 2018)

Mongolia said:


> Those are a lot of words. Do you know what Kant's categorical imperative is?


I suppose you ask me about the supposed collision between which I have defended lying as a better option and still consider that the Kantian imperative is right (although I have already said that man does not care much about the real application of his theory and that is his main fault, and the reasong for my preference to the existencialist theories).
It is true that Kant defence that lying is always bad, since one of his main axioms is to consider that telling the truth as a perfect duty.
However, that is to foolishly understand a part of his philosophy, his categorical imperative of action is based on three basic formulations from which the rest is extracted, including the duty to be truthful:
"Work only according to a maxim such that you can love at the same time that it becomes a universal law"
"Work in such a way that you treat humanity, both in your person and in that of any other person, always as an end and never only as a means"
"Work as if by means of your maxims you were always a legislator member in a universal kingdom of ends".
If your actions go against these maxims, although the action itself obeys a moral norm, you still act badly, since good will fails, which is the main support of Kantian ethics.

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## Shinobi1jutsu (Jun 7, 2018)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Orochimaru is not a terrible cause he is treated like a scumbag that he is.
> 
> Itachi is a terrible character cause he is treated like a perfect hero that he is not.





There is an obvious problem with your logic on this...

While I understand your point well, and I can see why/how this makes sense at first glance, you are ignoring a very important thing, and that is motive. 

Lets look at our laws in real life, if I kill someone because I don't like them, or because I gain something from it... that is murder. However, if I accidentally kill someone, that is treated very differently, and that is called "man slaughter." This carries a much... MUCH lighter penalty, and it should, since there was no motive. Now, in Itachi's case, he certainly meant to do what he did, but you have to consider that whether you agree with it, or not, at least in his own mind... his motive was noble and necessary to prevent greater loss (Utilitarian logic).

Whereas, Orochimaru was evil for the sake of being evil! Orochimaru did evil things for personal gain! Sometimes that personal gain was power, sometimes it satisfied his intellectual curiosity, and sometimes it was just to satisfy his sadism. Regardless of what evil deed he was committing, it was always for unimaginably selfish reasons. This guy seemed to get turned-on while he killed people, or tortured them, and he did this throughout the whole of the ninja world! He had at least 20-30 different hideouts, and at each hideout he had thousands of innocent people that he had kidnapped, imprisoned, enslaved, experimented on, tortured, forced them to fight/kill each other in mass melee battles, etc... Its all about motive. Orochimaru is seen the way that he is seen because his evil deeds are done for personal gain and/or to satisfy his sick desires. Orochimaru was written as a purely evil and unapologetic character.

Itachi gained absolutely NOTHING for committing his evil deeds, and he only did them because he believed it achieved a greater good for others... and, NOT for him! Itachi and other utilitarians tend to look at moral conundrums as a math problem. In that, it is morally necessary to commit a negative action, if the end product of that action results in a higher positive number than what could have been achieved without the negative action. Like, Itachi views the situation with the Uchiha mutiny/betrayal against the Leaf is... akin to multiplying a positive number with a negative number, so... he then multiplies that with another negative number, to achieve a positive result. That OBVIOUSLY is NOT a perfect analogy by any means, but if you ignore its logistical flaws... you get the point. The massacre of his own people was done to achieve a greater good for the Leaf village, he gained NOTHING from it, and... actually LOST EVERYTHING he held dear because of it... he KNEW that would be the consequence of his action, but... did it ANYWAY because he truly believed that it was the only way to save the leaf village from utter annihilation. So... weather or not you agree or disagree with supposition that... that was the ONLY way or not, you can conclude that Itachi's character certainly believed it was the ONLY way, and Itachi was one of the most intelligent characters in the series, so... MAYBE HE WAS RIGHT?!?!?! And... even IF he wasn't... he definitely thought he was, and his motive was noble. 

Its like going back in time, and killing baby Hitler. That is a moral conundrum, because on one side... it is beyond abhorrent to kill a completely innocent baby, that actually has NOT done ANYTHING... yet. However, on the flip side... if you kill that ONE baby, you know with absolute certainty, you save literally MILLIONS of other innocent human lives... including many other innocent babies. That can be a tough choice to make, but a Utilitarian would kill baby Hitler, and I wouldn't call him evil because of it. Not that I am a utilitarian, or that I agree with that philosophy, because I don't, but I can understand it, and I can't ignore that it makes a fair amount of sense.

Now... you said...

Orochimaru is not a terrible cause he is treated like a scumbag that he is.

Itachi is a terrible character cause he is treated like a perfect hero that he is not.

My question is... WHO (in the series) TREATS ITACHI LIKE A PERFECT HERO?!?!?!

Maybe Danzo to a certain extent, not that it matters though, I think Naruto, Sasuke, Hiruzen, Kakashi, and Obito show at least an understanding of WHY Itachi did what he did, but I don't believe ANY OF THEM see Itachi as a perfect hero!!! I think they see him as a complicated guy, who willingly went down a dark path, to do what he thought was a necessary thing. However, EVERYBODY ELSE in the series thinks Itachi is just as bad... if not WORSE than Orochimaru!!! The ONLY people that have ever treated Itachi as a "perfect hero" are his die-hard fans, but the character can not be held responsible, nor does he profit from crazy fans, and what they think. Itachi was treated as a reprehensible, vile, wicked, and abhorrent criminal by EVERYONE until the day he died, and even after he died... and came back, while a few people now understood why he did what he did... the overwhelming majority of the world still absolutely hated him! And, while a few die-hard fans LOVE him, most fans (as is self evident based on everyone's comments on this question) absolutely HATE him!!!

So... really NOBODY (besides a few fans) treats Itachi as a perfect hero, but... he did single-handedly save the entire world by stopping Kabuto with Izanami, he arguably saved the Leaf Village from annihilation by massacring his own clan, torturing Sasuke to give him the impetus to become strong enough to fight against the Akatsuki, and spy on the Akatsuki from within to provide the Leaf Village with critical intel about their plans and movements. It is easy to argue the point that Sasuke would have never become strong enough quickly enough to fight against the likes of Madara, Obito, and Kaguya... had Itachi not instilled the HATE in Sasuke that he did, and had Sasuke NOT had the intense desire for strength/power that he had... then, Naruto would also have NEVER had the impetus to become as strong as he did either, and without the combined strength of Naruto and Sasuke... NOBODY could have EVER stood against Obito, Madara, and Kaguya, and the world would effectively have ended! I mean... you cannot reasonably argue that had Itachi not been born that the Akatsuki would or could have been stopped! So... to an extent, he has to be a hero, even if he is a deeply flawed one. 

The simple fact that he makes people argue like this, that he provokes ANGER and HATE in many, and love in a few makes him a interesting character, which in a fiction story... makes him a good character! While Orochimaru is a purely evil character... for his own reasons, he is an awesome character too! That is my main point on this subject.

Like I said, I understand your answer completely, because... THAT IS EXACTLY THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT SASUKE!!!

It seems like EVERYBODY (but me) just LOVES SASUKE!!! But, I HATE HIM!!! I think he is a deeply selfish and entitled narcissist, with psychopathic tendencies. He spent 90% of the series as a traitorous villain, with zero loyalty for ANYONE, who abandons or tries to murder his own friends/teammates or BOTH, for NO REASON whatsoever (like Karin, Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi, Jugo, and Suigetsu) and showed NO REMORSE for anything, and... then... on a whim, he just swoops in at the end, and decides to fight against the... other bad guys with Naruto, and boom... just like that... ALL IS TOTALLY FORGOTTEN, and EVERYBODY thinks he is a "perfect hero." Everybody in the show just loves this prick, and ALL the fans love him too! The s**t is bonkers!!! 

Then, when you point out the endless list of betrayals, deeply immoral behaviors, and that he has an inability to love anyone, but himself and Itachi... everyone just explains it away as just saying that its okay because he was traumatized when he was a child... which, he undoubtedly WAS, however, I don't think that explains his extreme narcissism, or justifies his numerous abhorrent behaviors... but, for ALL the fans, and ALL the characters in the series... they're cool with it! That is what I don't get! 

A more accurate version of your answer should be...                 


Orochimaru is not a terrible cause he is treated like a scumbag that he is.

Itachi is NOT terrible character cause even though... he did bad things, he only did it for a noble reason, he never benefited from anything he did, he died alone, young, in pain, and wrecked with guilt, his legacy is viewed by all, but a scarce few as one of pure wickedness, but was willing to pay that price because he believed it was THAT IMPORTANT! Itachi only did evil things to achieve good, he was willing to atone for his sins, actually atoned for his sins, saved the world even after he died (Kabuto), and demonstrated extreme selflessness in every way possible, while Sasuke demonstrated extreme selfishness in everything and in every way possible, and is universally LOVED by all characters in the show, and by all the fans. Itachi is an interesting character because he is extremely complex, even if he is self-contradictory in many ways... like real people, he is neither all good or all evil, but is passionate in what he believes in, and is willing to pay any price to benefit the many, even at the expense of the few and himself.

Sasuke is a terrible character because he is a piece of S**T, but he is treated as a "perfect hero."

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shinobi1jutsu (Jun 7, 2018)

Alita54 said:


> Itachi was great as a villain and bad guy. He went to shit when kishi decided to make him a good guy and dick ride him.






I respectfully disagree. I think it makes for a better story when villains are villains for what they think is a noble cause. Villains who are recklessly evil for no reason are not very complex, nor can fans understand them or their motivations. Purely evil villains just exist as someone fans can hate, and want to see defeated. Complex... noble villains like Itachi, Obito, and Madara make for a more interesting story, and it makes more sense, which makes the story more impactful and real! In real life, there aren't all that many purely evil people, who are just sadistic, and evil solely for the sake of self pleasure. Most people doing evil things, at least start out in the beginning... as thinking that they are doing something they think is noble and important, and become evil as they become willing to do ANYTHING that will advance their purpose. That is a story that is more real, and more human, and it makes the character more interesting. Orochimaru for example is a sadistic... mad scientist, who is purely sociopathic... sure he is an interesting and entertaining character, but there is an unreality about him, that makes him seem like an especially cartoon character. Madara, Obito, and Itachi are more like misguided people in real life, that become villains in pursuit of their twisted visions.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Rifulofthewest (Jun 7, 2018)

Shinobi1jutsu said:


> Its like going back in time, and killing baby Hitler. That is a moral conundrum, because on one side... it is beyond abhorrent to kill a completely innocent baby, that actually has NOT done ANYTHING... yet. However, on the flip side... if you kill that ONE baby, you know with absolute certainty, you save literally MILLIONS of other innocent human lives... including many other innocent babies. That can be a tough choice to make, but a Utilitarian would kill baby Hitler, and I wouldn't call him evil because of it. Not that I am a utilitarian, or that I agree with that philosophy, because I don't, but I can understand it, and I can't ignore that it makes a fair amount of sense.



I will not say that your logic here is wrong because when I raised the problem of the baby hitler I have done it from that perspective that if Hitler did not exist, Nazism would not have existed. I just want to point out that I find it curious that even though Nazism was a consequence of the time when social unrest in Germany was at an all time high, we all seem to think that without Hitler nothing similar would have happened, just like if only Hitler was do things.

Utilitarianism is a wrong philosophy because it maintains that in order to achieve a "better" goal, bad things can be done, but reality is not mathematical or social issues are perfect like numbers, and yet, it does not value that it is "good" and that is "bad", is a knowledge that is not described or insinuated in that philosophy and that is left to common thought, however this common thought is variable, by society, by position, for a thousand reasons.
In fact this discourse shows that what is considered best varies from person to person, you think that Itachi did well saving the village, and I, if it were utilitarian, I would think that he should have killed the leaders of both sides and have tried to mount an ideal society with the eye of shisui.

But i still think that Itachi is a terrible character because his actions dont have logic (apart of the uchiha masacre). 
Sasuke is a bad character because he is monothematic, he has nothing other than revenge and we do not know what his opinion is about other issues that are not revenge and be stronger despite the fact that he could have formed opinions about it. 
In addition, from the proposals of the bad guys to change the ninja system, his was the most foolish, and that he had had time to think about it and that he was right in thinking that the villas had united only because madara was a common threat to them. but it was so dumb that it was not even an outline of real philosophies like that of Pain or Madara or Kakuzu.
Besides, he seems to obsess people with him, and he does not even know how he does it, apart from being handsome, and he was not even such a good friend that Naruto chases him until the end of the world. This is especially idiotic if we consider that he never understand that he has done anything wrong and that everything is the fault of the rest of humanity.
and it seems to me very strong that he has not managed to kill anyone just because kishimoto wanted to redeem him, it's a manipulative move: in the first part he loses his fighting and does not kill anyone, in the second itachi, Danzo and Deidara die alone, those who Random attacks are people who had no name so the audience does not care about them, kaguya is sealed not killed, Madara is killed by zetsu, and Karin survives inexplicably because a lightning bolt through your chest can only kill you if your death helps create a supervillain, and Sakura is like Orochimaru, has seven lives.
But, no one treats Sasuke as a perfect hero, they treats Sasuke as a 5 years child who not have volunte about his acts.


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## Deleted member 198194 (Jun 7, 2018)

I'm glad a lot of people are coming to their senses post-Itachi-hype-peak.  The slaughter of the Uchiha clan wasn't necessary no matter how hard Kishimoto tried to write a plot that justified it.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 3


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## Toph (Jun 8, 2018)

123fire said:


> Fanart



And it still happened in the canon, your point being?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Shinobi1jutsu (Jun 8, 2018)

Rifulofthewest said:


> I will not say that your logic here is wrong because when I raised the problem of the baby hitler I have done it from that perspective that if Hitler did not exist, Nazism would not have existed. I just want to point out that I find it curious that even though Nazism was a consequence of the time when social unrest in Germany was at an all time high, we all seem to think that without Hitler nothing similar would have happened, just like if only Hitler was do things.
> 
> Utilitarianism is a wrong philosophy because it maintains that in order to achieve a "better" goal, bad things can be done, but reality is not mathematical or social issues are perfect like numbers, and yet, it does not value that it is "good" and that is "bad", is a knowledge that is not described or insinuated in that philosophy and that is left to common thought, however this common thought is variable, by society, by position, for a thousand reasons.
> In fact this discourse shows that what is considered best varies from person to person, you think that Itachi did well saving the village, and I, if it were utilitarian, I would think that he should have killed the leaders of both sides and have tried to mount an ideal society with the eye of shisui.
> ...






Your answer was awesome! I honestly cannot disagree with anything you said. Your analysis makes perfect sense to me. People's strange obsession with Sasuke is one of the most irritating aspects of the show/series, and to me undermines the entire story. Naruto and Sakura's demented obsession is a subject that is talked about a LOT, and without a doubt is nothing short of psychotic. I think that perhaps... IF Sasuke had not abandoned and betrayed the Leaf Village as early in the series as he did, and was a member of Team 7 a LOT longer than he was... AND... we got to see him develop real bonds with Naruto and Sakura, and we got see some evidence that Sasuke was more than just a narcissistic douchebag, then... maybe... Naruto and Sakura's obsession might make a little more sense, but it definitely didn't! However, while Naruto and Sakura's insane obsession gets a lot of talk, people forget about Karin, Jugo, and Suigetsu's obsession with Sasuke, which is arguably even more insane!!! Since, they spent considerably less time with Sasuke, and for no reason... they just willingly decide to serve him, putting their lives on the line for him on a daily basis, dedicate their lives to helping Sasuke achieve Sasuke's goals... while receiving ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in return!?!?!? WTF!?!?!? Then, Sasuke betrays them... abandons Jugo and Suigetsu, and tries to murder Karin, and... IT DOESN'T MATTER... they LOVE him anyways?!?!?! However, the worst betrayal of ALL, in what can only be described as a character assassination... after Sasuke brings Orochimaru back (after killing him)... Orochimaru joins the Sasuke "fan club," and becomes a card carrying... full fledged member of the Sasuke Cult along with Naruto, Sakura, Karin, Jugo, and Suigetsu?!?!?! WTF?!?!?! Orochimaru even decides to help Sasuke by fighting for him in the war... that he doesn't believe in... ALL because he wants to serve Sasuke... again... for absolutely NO REASON whatsoever!!! For me, Orochimaru dropped down quite a few pegs after that! 

Your proposed solution to solving the problem with the Uchiha clan betrayal sounds pretty damn clever, but I guarantee nobody thought about that... not even the writers, AND... I'm not sure it would have been possible because I know that it takes 10 years before Shisui's special genjutsu can be used, and I do not know how many years it had been since Shisui had first used it. I have to imagine, that Shisui must have used it at least once, and that's how he knew what its effect was, since he was only about 13-15 years old when he died, it might not have been ready to use, AND... additionally, perhaps Itachi didn't know how to use it. I must say though... your solution is genius! 

As for Hitler... NEVER... EVER underestimate the power of a charismatic leader! Like a lot of crazy beliefs and ideologies, Nazism was powerless without a sufficient governmental resources behind it, and while it may have been brewing in Germany independent of Hitler... it was Hitler and Mein Kampf that laid out the ideological program that Hitler established for the German revolution, by identifying the Jews and "Bolsheviks" as racially and ideologically inferior and threatening, and "Aryans" and National Socialists as racially superior and politically progressive. Hitler's revolutionary goals included expulsion of the Jews from Greater Germany and the unification of German peoples into one Greater Germany. It was this that was the cause of WW2, and while a war of some kind may have occurred in Europe independent of Hitler being born, there is nothing to suggest that it would have been the Nazi's that would have come to power, or that the Holocaust would have happened without Hitler. So... yeah... killing baby Hitler would still be super-great for the world!


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 8, 2018)

Yeah, Itachi rocks.  That's what I get from this thread.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Corvida (Jun 8, 2018)

HoroHoro said:


> And it still happened in the canon, your point being?



Exactly
this



should be mandatory post in every would be Itachi wank post

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Milliardo (Jun 8, 2018)

Yagami1211 said:


> Yeah, Itachi rocks.  That's what I get from this thread.


Of course you are an Itachi fan.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 9, 2018)

Milliardo said:


> Of course you are an Itachi fan.



I am ?


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## Toph (Jun 9, 2018)

Corvida said:


> Exactly
> this
> 
> 
> ...



Let's not forget that every single time some Itachi fan claims that he is a pacifist and a gentle person, always remember to bring up these panels

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Raiden (Jun 9, 2018)

lol who necro'd this thread? Let the past rest .


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## Rifulofthewest (Jun 9, 2018)

Corvida said:


> Exactly
> this
> 
> 
> ...


I do not know who drew it, but it is the most commented fanat of all naruto.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kisame (Jun 9, 2018)

I understand the criticism of Itachi's character, but I never understood why he rustled so many jimmies and why he has so many haters.

The whole Uchiha massacre thing was grey on all sides: the Uchiha were bad, Konoha were bad, Itachi was bad...

So why does only Itachi get blamed and hated? What about good old Hiruzen who gave the order? Seems like a lot of people are okay with him.

The Uchiha were going to do the same thing Itachi did and it would have resulted in bigger casualties and would have lead to war.

As for Itachi being revered as a hero, it was stated in the manga that he "had no choice" and that the ultimatum would have been worse.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Milliardo (Jun 10, 2018)

Shark said:


> I understand the criticism of Itachi's character, but I never understood why he rustled so many jimmies and why he has so many haters.


Itachi certainly had plenty of fanboys back in the day as well so its not as if he was only hated. His poorly written background and glorification of murdering his own people as whole (along with babied and children) kinda leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. Maybe if Kishimoto didn't jerk off so hard to Itachi people wouldn't have as much hate? What do you think?





> The whole Uchiha massacre thing was grey on all sides: the Uchiha were bad, Konoha were bad, Itachi was bad...
> 
> So why does only Itachi get blamed and hated? What about good old Hiruzen who gave the order? Seems like a lot of people are okay with him.


Pretty sure everyone involved looks bad especially the 3rd Hokage. People tend to try and defend Itachi's actions specifically so he gets called out more. Itachi also had other information like knowing of "Madara" yet never said a damn thing about him. Itachi had better options than blindly killing his own people too.





> The Uchiha were going to do the same thing Itachi did and it would have resulted in bigger casualties and would have lead to war.


That was all speculation within the manga. Danzo planning a sneak attack kills their revolt. Sneak attack was the only chance the Uchiha had themselves because they were far too weak for a massive war with Konoha. Since the higher ups already knew about it, it was over before it began.





> As for Itachi being revered as a hero, it was stated in the manga that he "had no choice" and that the ultimatum would have been worse.


Yet towards the end of the manga Itachi mentioned another option that obviously wouldn't have been worse.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 10, 2018)

Milliardo said:


> Itachi certainly had plenty of fanboys back in the day as well so its not as if he was only hated. His poorly written background and glorification of murdering his own people as whole (along with babied and children) kinda leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. Maybe if Kishimoto didn't jerk off so hard to Itachi people wouldn't have as much hate? What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes. Trying to accomplish anything alone lead to disastrous results. He really should have reached out to Sasuke. But he realises this too late.
No point in debating about this. Although there's no telling how that would have ended.


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## Platypus (Jun 10, 2018)

8 year old Sasuke was going to look at them with puppy eyes and sway their minds, somehow.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Milliardo (Jun 10, 2018)

Yagami1211 said:


> Yes. Trying to accomplish anything alone lead to disastrous results. He really should have reached out to Sasuke. But he realises this too late.
> No point in debating about this. Although there's no telling how that would have ended.


Of course it wasn't guaranteed never claimed it was. I would have respected Itachi far more for at least trying tho. I mean do something for his people...




Platypus said:


> 8 year old Sasuke was going to look at them with puppy eyes and sway their minds, somehow.


 While Itachi is explaining what Sasuke's life is going to be like if they go through with it. I would imagine that would work like a charm.


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## Platypus (Jun 10, 2018)

Milliardo said:


> While Itachi is explaining what Sasuke's life is going to be like if they go through with it. I would imagine that would work like a charm.


They would've gladly put the entire clan on the line by attempting to overthrow Hiruzen and establish themselves as Konoha's new leaders. If they didn't consider that the coup was going to impact the clan including Sasuke's life one way or another, they must've been pretty retarded. But then again their plan was retarded anyway: one of your major assets, Kotoamatsukami, is gone and your prodigious son harbors ill feelings towards your clan, works for the opposing side's spy and assassination unit and has likely snitched on you already, meaning your only advantage, the element of surprise, is now gone too.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Platypus (Jun 10, 2018)

You could argue they were desperate and wanted to make the first move—before Konoha made theirs.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 10, 2018)

Milliardo said:


> Of course it wasn't guaranteed never claimed it was. I would have respected Itachi far more for at least trying tho. I mean do something for his people...
> 
> 
> While Itachi is explaining what Sasuke's life is going to be like if they go through with it. I would imagine that would work like a charm.



I wonder what would be the reaction is Itachi plan would have worked.
Itachi gives the curse of hatred to Sasuke by Tsukuyomi.
Sasuke grows strong, finds Itachi, kills Itachi
Sasuke takes Itachi's eyes and gets EMS.
Sasuke takes Akatsuki on, kills them all, stop Obito, doesn't listen to him and the war doesn't happen.

How would Konoha react ? How would reader react ?



Platypus said:


> They would've gladly put the entire clan on the line by attempting to overthrow Hiruzen and establish themselves as Konoha's new leaders. If they didn't consider that the coup was going to impact the clan including Sasuke's life one way or another, they must've been pretty retarded. But then again their plan was retarded anyway: one of your major assets, Kotoamatsukami, is gone and your prodigious son harbors ill feelings towards your clan and works for the opposing side's spy and assassination forces and has probably snitched on you already, which means your only advantage, the element of surprise, is now gone too.



Said like this, the Uchiha were screwed whatever happens.


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## Milliardo (Jun 10, 2018)

Platypus said:


> They would've gladly put the entire clan on the line by attempting to overthrow Hiruzen and establish themselves as Konoha's new leaders. If they didn't consider that the coup was going to impact the clan including Sasuke's life one way or another, they must've been pretty retarded. *But then again their plan was retarded anyway*: one of your major assets, Kotoamatsukami, is gone and your prodigious son harbors ill feelings towards your clan, works for the opposing side's spy and assassination unit and has likely snitched on you already, meaning your only advantage, the element of surprise, is now gone too.


I was gonna say they were pretty foolish from the beginning. In my opinion they were delusional and desperate like you mention so they needed something to wake them to reality. Itachi telling them Konoha knows of their plan and is threatening to wipe out all the Uchiha with a scared little Sasuke next to him should have opened their eyes. It is all speculation though on what should and could have happened and we have discussed this to death so its not like we are reaching new territory here. 






Yagami1211 said:


> I wonder what would be the reaction is Itachi plan would have worked.
> Itachi gives the curse of hatred to Sasuke by Tsukuyomi.
> Sasuke grows strong, finds Itachi, kills Itachi
> Sasuke takes Itachi's eyes and gets EMS.
> ...


If Sasuke never learned the truth and Naruto gets to him before Obito then it would've at the very least saved us the pain of going through dark Sasuke.. Sasuke would be seen as a hero regardless and Itachi fans would brag how his plan worked I guess.


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 10, 2018)

Platypus said:


> You could argue they were desperate and wanted to make the first move—before Konoha made theirs.



That was even Danzou's argument for Itachi to make a move, IIRC.


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## Kisame (Jun 10, 2018)

Milliardo said:


> Itachi certainly had plenty of fanboys back in the day as well so its not as if he was only hated.


Him having fanboys doesn't explain why the hate for him was so much nor does it upset it.


> His poorly written background and glorification of murdering his own people as whole (along with babied and children) kinda leaves a bad taste in people's mouths.


But what about the manga telling us he prevented a war by doing that? Everything he did would have happened anyway but to more people and with bigger casualties.


> Maybe if Kishimoto didn't jerk off so hard to Itachi people wouldn't have as much hate? What do you think?


But Kishimoto explained that Itachi prevented much more than what he commited...


> Pretty sure everyone involved looks bad especially the 3rd Hokage.


Then where is the "Hiruzen was a terrible character because he gave the order and Kishimoto never portrayed him as a corrupt leader" threads? Where is your hate for Kishimoto portraying Hiruzen as a noble Hokage and not "responsible for the murder of children and babies"?


> People tend to try and defend Itachi's actions specifically so he gets called out more.


I don't blame them because there are people like Hiruzen who by that same line of thought should get more hate yet Itachi is the one that is targeted.


> Itachi also had other information like knowing of "Madara" yet never said a damn thing about him.


Say to whom? The Uchiha terrorists of the Konoha leaders who order massacres?


> Itachi had better options than blindly killing his own people too.


And those who _gave him the order _didn't have better options?


> That was all speculation within the manga. Danzo planning a sneak attack kills their revolt. Sneak attack was the only chance the Uchiha had themselves because they were far too weak for a massive war with Konoha. Since the higher ups already knew about it, it was over before it began.


The Uchiha winning or losing is irrelevant, because the coup would have resulted in casualties and Konoha would have been weakened and there would have been war whoch leads to more casualties.


> yet towards the end of the manga Itachi mentioned another option that obviously wouldn't have been worse.


Why is Itachi hated for attempting to redeem himself by saying he might have had other options - but those who gave the order and _didn't even redeem themselves_ don't get hated?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Milliardo (Jun 10, 2018)

Shark said:


> Him having fanboys doesn't explain why the hate for him was so much nor does it upset it.


 I mentioned it because Itachi got plenty of love as well. He was one of the most popular characters back in the day hardly mainly hated on. I explained after why he was hated... 




> But what about the manga telling us he prevented a war by doing that? Everything he did would have happened anyway but to more people and with bigger casualties.


This is where poor writing affects it. People don't buy what Kishimoto is selling. I don't buy it either. I went over this in the other Itachi topic. "Itachi did the right thing"





> But Kishimoto explained that Itachi prevented much more than what he commited...


It would have helped more if Kishi didn't basically contradict what he claimed would happen with the Uchiha Massacre when Konoha was weakened multiple times and no world war. It also would have helped if he gave insight on what was going on with the leaders of other villages at that time. All the ninjas claiming this world war was going to happen were from Konoha....




> Then where is the "Hiruzen was a terrible character because he gave the order and Kishimoto never portrayed him as a corrupt leader" threads? Where is your hate for Kishimoto portraying Hiruzen as a noble Hokage and not "responsible for the murder of children and babies"?


 There were a few topics like that but nothing coming close to saint Itachi. Little late but maybe you can make your own Hiruzen sucks thread. 

For me personally Hiruzen definitely should have stepped up and thought of a better solution or a solution at all... Horrible leadership but he was also forced back into the position. It should have been someone else making those decisions unfortunately Minato died too early.




> I don't blame them because there are people like Hiruzen who by that same line of thought should get more hate yet Itachi is the one that is targeted.


Hiruzen was an old man past his prime in a position he probably didn't want back so again he gets some slack from me but yes horrible leadership there.

Itachi was a young teenager at the time so he gets some slack too. See the problem is the hype from Kishimoto. He presents Itachi as a super genius with mind of Hokage at 7. He didnt exactly make great decisions for a super genius. The other thing is well Itachi is an Uchiha these are HIS people. He doesn't go above and beyond to try and save them.  He immediately goes along with what Danzo wants without question... Who could actually relate to abandoning their own family at the drop of a hat? Frankly its quite despicable and I would never respect a character/person that could do that. Thats probably a taste of what people feel with him. Kishimoto poorly writing excuses with guaranteed wars to try and justify Itachi's actions don't change that.




> Say to whom? The Uchiha terrorists of the Konoha leaders who order massacres?


 I would imagine leadership on both sides ya know to clear things up? At very least give intel on the mask man to help the Naruto world but thats right its all about Konoha isn't it fuck the rest of the world. So much for the greater good argument.




> And those who _gave him the order _didn't have better options?


Are they Uchiha? Is there a Danzo Uchiha or Hiruzen Uchiha? There certainly is an Itachi Uchiha but oh wait hes Itachi of the Leaf fuck anybody else... Let the rest of the world burn for all he cares...





> The Uchiha winning or losing is irrelevant, because the coup would have resulted in casualties and Konoha would have been weakened and there would have been war whoch leads to more casualties.


Speculation. Konoha was weakened when the Uchiha were wiped out yet nobody attacked. There was no civil war the Uchiha were killed by two other Uchiha. These are manga facts btw. Did I mention bad writing? 




> Why is Itachi hated for attempting to redeem himself by saying he might have had other options - but those who gave the order and _didn't even redeem themselves_ don't get hated?


Thats Itachi redeeming himself??   Dude the Uchiha Massacre is only half the problem with Itachi. We start talking his actions with Akatsuki and Sasuke we could be here a while.


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 10, 2018)

Milliardo said:


> I mentioned it because Itachi got plenty of love as well. He was one of the most popular characters back in the day hardly mainly hated on. I explained after why he was hated...
> 
> 
> This is where poor writing affects it. People don't buy what Kishimoto is selling. I don't buy it either. I went over this in the other Itachi topic. "Itachi did the right thing"
> ...



That's the part I don't understand. You try to make a point by saying the civil war didn't happen. And to prove that your bring Itachi's actions, which was to prevent said Civil War in the first place. The War was over before it started, so of course no third party could participate. It would defeat the purpose of the massacre.


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## Milliardo (Jun 10, 2018)

Yagami1211 said:


> That's the part I don't understand. You try to make a point by saying the civil war didn't happen. And to prove that your bring Itachi's actions, which was to prevent said Civil War in the first place. The War was over before it started, so of course no third party could participate. It would defeat the purpose of the massacre.


 I don't follow exactly what you mean here but I understand parts of it I guess.. Correct me if I'm missing your meaning. 


 Kishimoto describes it(the civil war among Uchiha and Konoha) as basically unavoidable then writes it to where two ninjas wipe out the whole clan... At that point how was it unavoidable or a huge concern for Konoha?  Are we suppose to believe the Uchiha are this massive threat after that? I mean at that point I believe Danzo and a few other skilled ninja could do the same. It didn't even have to be Itachi. Thats just the civil war part. 

The world war part is also confusing. The Uchiha suppoedly these uber powerful ninjas get kiiled off yet nobody fucks with Konoha anyways??? At this time you have to question the credibility of the Uchiha if two guys can kill them off and nobody attacks Konoha. Is that suppose to hype Konoha? They are just that badass without the Uchiha?  It doesn't make sense to me.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kisame (Jun 10, 2018)

Milliardo said:


> I mentioned it because Itachi got plenty of love as well. He was one of the most popular characters back in the day hardly mainly hated on. I explained after why he was hated...


And as I've mentioned how much love he got is not relevant.


> It would have helped more if Kishi didn't basically contradict what he claimed would happen with the Uchiha Massacre when Konoha was weakened multiple times and no world war. It also would have helped if he gave insight on what was going on with the leaders of other villages at that time. All the ninjas claiming this world war was going to happen were from Konoha....


So basically you just don't like that the Uchiha massacre happened and feel the author should have justified it more for you? Why is there no hate for Hiruzen and those who gave the order "because they were wrong about war erupting"? Why only Itachi?


> There were a few topics like that but nothing coming close to saint Itachi.


That's the thing: there should be just as many topics of not _more_ about Hiruzen. Yet the fandom only hates on Itachi.


> For me personally Hiruzen definitely should have stepped up and thought of a better solution or a solution at all... Horrible leadership but he was also forced back into the position. It should have been someone else making those decisions unfortunately Minato died too early.


Him being forced back into the position had _nothing_ to do with his judgement and position as the leader of the village. But dare someone make an excuse for Itachi - the 13 year old kid who was used and at least questioned his actions.


> Hiruzen was an old man past his prime in a position he probably didn't want back so again he gets some slack from me but yes horrible leadership there.


But Itachi being a 13 year old and being used by Danzō  (and by association Hiruzen) doesn't get some slack?

Hiruzen _gave the order_.


> Itachi was a young teenager at the time so he gets some slack too. See the problem is the hype from Kishimoto. He presents Itachi as a super genius with mind of Hokage at 7. He didnt exactly make great decisions for a super genius.


Again if the complaint is Itachi being portrayed as good then why is there no complaint that Hiruzen wasn't portrayed as an evil Hokage who orders the slaughter of children at the hands of a kid and forces that kid to live in exile for the rest of his life?


> The other thing is well Itachi is an Uchiha these are HIS people.


The village > the clan.


> He immediately goes along with what Danzo wants without question...


You mean like how Hiruzen who was the leader of the village did? And ended up giving the order himself?

Because the responsibilty falls _only_ on 13 year old Itachi who could stop everything by himself?


> Who could actually relate to abandoning their own family at the drop of a hat? Frankly its quite despicable and I would never respect a character/person that could do that.


Then you should have more hate for the adults in power who gave him the order.


> I would imagine leadership on both sides ya know to clear things up?


What would that have achieved? It's a three way war.


> Are they Uchiha? Is there a Danzo Uchiha or Hiruzen Uchiha? There certainly is an Itachi Uchiha but oh wait hes Itachi of the Leaf fuck anybody else... Let the rest of the world burn for all he cares...


So basically as long as you're not an Uchiha it's ok to order the massacre of children.


> Speculation.


That's not speculation, that's what we've been told by the manga.


> Konoha was weakened when the Uchiha were wiped out yet nobody attacked. There was no civil war the Uchiha were killed by two other Uchiha.


That's because the purpose of the massacre was to stop that from happening...and it did.

How is the massacre not leading to war evidence that..it leads to war?


> Thats Itachi redeeming himself??   Dude the Uchiha Massacre is only half the problem with Itachi. We start talking his actions with Akatsuki and Sasuke we could be here a while.


Itachi prevented Tobi from invading Konoha. Yet you only see what you want to see.


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## The Great One (Jun 10, 2018)

Hey, Orochimaru attacked which killed  Hiruzen & damaged the village enough were they had to put a drunkard on Hokage seat and send genins to a jonin tier mission. 

But we did not see Kumo or Iwa coming after Konoha's throat after Sound/Sand  Invasion right? 

Yeah, Itachi killed Uchiha for nothing.


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 11, 2018)

Milliardo said:


> I don't follow exactly what you mean here but I understand parts of it I guess.. Correct me if I'm missing your meaning.
> 
> 
> Kishimoto describes it(the civil war among Uchiha and Konoha) as basically unavoidable then writes it to where two ninjas wipe out the whole clan... At that point how was it unavoidable or a huge concern for Konoha?  Are we suppose to believe the Uchiha are this massive threat after that? I mean at that point I believe Danzo and a few other skilled ninja could do the same. It didn't even have to be Itachi. Thats just the civil war part.
> ...



You're confused. There would be no Civil War whatsoever and that thing never existed in the manga nor was presented to us.
Konoha prevented the coup d'état from happening, you know this. And the whole massacre was done in like two hours.
Danzou feared during the coup d'état other villages would come and take their chances to destroy Konoha during the Coup D'état with others potentially side with the Uchihas or not. So he took measures for it to not happen. It's not Rocket Science.

And Danzou and a few others ninjas were going to do the same anyway, if Itachi didn't act. Danzou would kill them all anyway. They were not going to give time to the Uchihas to regroup and and let them prepare to fight. Especially since Obito gave infos to other Uchihas about how to free Kyuubi. Basically the Uchihas were going to be a threat, with enough prep time.


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## Rifulofthewest (Jun 11, 2018)

But Hiruzen does get hatred, whenever there is talk of the uchiha massacre everyone agrees that Hiruzen happens to be a good and wise man to be an idiot unable to control Danzo and who did not know how to handle the situation.
And I suppose if we do not call him genocidal it's because he was really negotiating and the order to massacre was given by Danzo behind his back.
Basically, the uchiha massacre has changed the perception of many, not to hate it, but to lament as it ruins his character and made him looks ridiculous.


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## Milliardo (Jun 11, 2018)

Shark said:


> And as I've mentioned how much love he got is not relevant.


I explained in the same paragraph why he was hated and you ignored it only focusing on the first sentence. I'm not sure why since you want to understand why people hate Itachi.




> So basically you just don't like that the Uchiha massacre happened and feel the author should have justified it more for you? Why is there no hate for Hiruzen and those who gave the order "because they were wrong about war erupting"? Why only Itachi?


 I've already explained... Itachi gets hyped 100x more than Hiruzen and he kills off his family without even trying to save them oh and most importantly it was poor writing.





> Him being forced back into the position had _nothing_ to do with his judgement and position as the leader of the village. But dare someone make an excuse for Itachi - the 13 year old kid who was used and at least questioned his actions.


 If he is no longer suited for the job it most certainly has to do with his position as the Hokage. Everyone agrees Hiruzen had extremely poor judgement. Also people focus on Itachi because he is popular, shown more, and has way more hype. Therefore more fans and haters as well which get more people hyping him and hating him. Why is this so hard?


Oh and lol Itachi questioning his actions? Dude Itachi is hyped to be a super genius that can do no wrong yet did nothing. Are people suppose to ignore that hype and say he is just a foolish kid oh well? I mean I do somewhat like i said previously but the fact that he doesn't even try anything else to save his family kills it for me but thats me personally I can't speak for thousands of people.





> But Itachi being a 13 year old and being used by Danzō  (and by association Hiruzen) doesn't get some slack?
> 
> Hiruzen _gave the order_.


 A 13 year old kid with the mind of Hokage at age 7! Blame Kishi for that.

Ok? It was still Itachi's CHOICE to do it. It was HIS family. Hiruzen was a pushover who relied on Danzo to do the dirty work. Itachi could have easily disregarded that order but he followed it through not seeking any other option.





> Again if the complaint is Itachi being portrayed as good then why is there no complaint that Hiruzen wasn't portrayed as an evil Hokage who orders the slaughter of children at the hands of a kid and forces that kid to live in exile for the rest of his life?


This again? People wonder why I repeat myself here...

_*"Itachi gets hyped 100x more than Hiruzen and he kills off his family without even trying to save them oh and most importantly it was poor writing."

"Also People focus on Itachi mainly because he is popular, shown more, and has way more hype. Therefore more fans and haters as well which get more people hyping him and hating him. Why is this so hard?"
*_





> The village > the clan.


Yep Itachi of the Leaf certainly proved that. I would imagine most wouldn't follow his path with their own family but thats why hes Itachi of Leaf!





> You mean like how Hiruzen who was the leader of the village did? And ended up giving the order himself?


 You mean like Itachi who CHOSE to follow the order? And ended up following the order without ever trying anything else? Can you explain how that makes sense?



> Because the responsibilty falls _only_ on 13 year old Itachi who could stop everything by himself?


* "*_*Mind of a Hokage at 7 years old." *_Man that never gets old.




> Then you should have more hate for the adults in power who gave him the order.


Why? It was Itachi's choice and his family.




> What would that have achieved? It's a three way war.


Um...the Uchiha were suspected to be involved in the Kyuubi attack... Also Obito was a threat to not only Konoha but all nations... 




> So basically as long as you're not an Uchiha it's ok to order the massacre of children.


 Strange interpretation.. Already said Hiruzen was a horrible leader in this event so not sure why you think that. Itachi actually does the killing willingly which is worse and its his own flesh and blood to top it off.


Tell me personally would you kill your own family because someone told you to or "ordered" you to? Please answer that question as I would like to better understand you.





> That's not speculation, that's what we've been told by the manga.


 The manga contradicts itself all the time. Its speculation until proven. Itachi himself thinks of another way so how can that be if the massacre is the only way it works? Yeah think about it if there supposedly was no other way then why is Itachi thinking about other options?  Could it be he didn't think things through and there was a better option?




> That's because the purpose of the massacre was to stop that from happening...and it did. How is the massacre not leading to war evidence that..it leads to war?


 So Konoha losing the famous and powerful Uchiha clan and nobody bats an eyelash... Sorry Kishimoto can't have it both ways and thats one of the major problems in his writing.




> Itachi prevented Tobi from invading Konoha. Yet you only see what you want to see.


My god are people still claiming this??  I see the truth thats what I see.

Anyways I'm just explaining why people hate Itachi more whether you accept that explanation or not means nothing to me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 11, 2018)

Milliardo said:


> I explained in the same paragraph why he was hated and you ignored it only focusing on the first sentence. I'm not sure why since you want to understand why people hate Itachi.
> 
> 
> I've already explained... Itachi gets hyped 100x more than Hiruzen and he kills off his family without even trying to save them oh and most importantly it was poor writing.
> ...



The Mindset of an Hokage does not equal being smart or knowledgeable. It equals putting the need of the many before your own personal wishes, like an Hokage would do. Which is what Hiruzen did when he fought Orochimaru. I thought it was obvious. Mindset is they way you think, not how much you know.

I'm starting to think you're a troll.


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## Milliardo (Jun 11, 2018)

Yagami1211 said:


> You're confused. There would be no Civil War whatsoever and that thing never existed in the manga nor was presented to us.
> Konoha prevented the coup d'état from happening, you know this. And the whole massacre was done in like two hours.
> Danzou feared during the coup d'état other villages would come and take their chances to destroy Konoha during the Coup D'état with others potentially side with the Uchihas or not. So he took measures for it to not happen. It's not Rocket Science.


Look what I'm saying is Kishimoto builds it up like if the Uchiha and Konoha were to fight it would be a huge devastating war where both sides take huge damage. Then he writes it to where Konoha sends in one kid to kill the entire clan. That is why it doesn't make sense..

A sneak attack is an obvious choice for ninjas I mean its not like they are going to sound off a horn declaring war before they attack.. In my mind it was always going to be a sneak attack. So.. If it was always going to be a sneak attack and Konoha was just going to send in 13 year old Itachi then how was there ever going to be a huge civil war that draws in other villages? Hopefully you get my point here.

From beginning to end the Uchiha Massacre incident doesn't really make sense. The Uchiha are basically weak morons. Thats how they come off anyways..




> And Danzou and a few others ninjas were going to do the same anyway, if Itachi didn't act. Danzou would kill them all anyway.


Yeah I agree with this completely and its in the manga Danzo is playing a sneak attack so it works out nicely.




> They were not going to give time to the Uchihas to regroup and and let them prepare to fight.


Yeah I agree with this too. Its the fear part of massive wars that I don't get.




> Especially since Obito gave infos to other Uchihas about how to free Kyuubi. Basically the Uchihas were going to be a threat, with enough prep time.


That would have been cool in the manga.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sequester (Jun 11, 2018)

Milliardo said:


> I explained in the same paragraph why he was hated and you ignored it only focusing on the first sentence. I'm not sure why since you want to understand why people hate Itachi.
> 
> 
> I've already explained... Itachi gets hyped 100x more than Hiruzen and he kills off his family without even trying to save them oh and most importantly it was poor writing.
> ...



Definitely a result of bad writing, for a character who was supposed to have a mind of a hokage at the age of 7, he sure made some bone headed decisions in his life. Was his precious Sasuke really better off with his '_selfless_' actions? Was his beloved Konoha safer without addressing the problem of having someone as corrupt as Danzo manipulating things behind the scenes?

Had he just been around to train and instill good values into Sasuke as a child, that would have saved Sasuke from so much he had to go through... and had he just fucking stood to defend the country he supposedly loved so much I am sure the problems would have ironed themselves out, especially considering how talented a person he has been portrayed as being, and the fact that most of the shady shit going on in Konoha can be attributed to just a small group of people; with Danzo being the primary problem.

Itachi has been written as a genius with no common sense, coming up with convoluted roundabout solutions to pretty straightforward problems. Had he just been honest with himself and had a semblance of a backbone he could have easily found other solutions, he could have become a fucking hokage.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 11, 2018)

Sequester said:


> Definitely a result of bad writing, for a character who was supposed to have a mind of a hokage at the age of 7, he sure made some bone headed decisions in his life. Was his precious Sasuke really better off with his '_selfless_' actions? Was his beloved Konoha safer without addressing the problem of having someone as corrupt as Danzo manipulating things behind the scenes?
> 
> Had he just been around to train and instill good values into Sasuke as a child, that would have saved Sasuke from so much he had to go through... and had he just fucking stood to defend the country he supposedly loved so much I am sure the problems would have ironed themselves out, especially considering how talented a person he has been portrayed as being, and the fact that most of the shady shit going on in Konoha can be attributed to just a small group of people; with Danzo being the primary problem.
> 
> Itachi has been written as a genius with no common sense, coming up with convoluted roundabout solutions to pretty straightforward problems. Had he just been honest with himself and a semblance of a backbone he could have easily found other solutions, he could have become a a fucking hokage.



Like I said in another thread. The mindset of an Hokage means he puts others before his personal needs.


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## Sequester (Jun 11, 2018)

Yagami1211 said:


> Like I said in another thread. The mindset of an Hokage means he puts others before his personal needs.



Even still, he was supposedly a genius of geniuses.


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## Milliardo (Jun 11, 2018)

Yagami1211 said:


> The Mindset of an Hokage does not equal being smart or knowledgeable. It equals putting the need of the many before your own personal wishes, like an Hokage would do. Which is what Hiruzen did when he fought Orochimaru. I thought it was obvious. Mindset is they way you think, not how much you know.
> 
> I'm starting to think you're a troll.


Here you go



Sequester said:


> Even still, he was supposedly a genius of geniuses.


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 11, 2018)

Sequester said:


> Even still, he was supposedly a genius of geniuses.



He is, as far as ninja skill goes. Why is this relevant ? He's a genius ninja. With no social skills and no common sense.


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## Arthas (Jun 11, 2018)

Yagami1211 said:


> He is, as far as ninja skill goes. Why is this relevant ? He's a genius ninja. With no social skills and no common sense.



?

Itachi was not just supposed to be a genius at being a ninja but fairly smart period.

Kabuto even qualifies him as being an excellent liar who could read people.

Somehow that does not strike me as a person with no social skills.

Also even at the end Zetsu was claiming that Sasuke was not as smart as Itachi (implying Itachi would have realised what Zetsu meant.)

Edit: 

Also @Miliardo has an excellent point. 

Kishi simply did not plan things very well.

If there was a danger of a Civil War if the Uchiha rebelled, then the Uchiha should have been written as being far more powerful.

The way the Massacre was written, no - one really believes that the Uchiha Clan could have caused more damage then the Sand-Sound Invasion or even Pein's attack and neither of those events resulted in other countries invading Konoha.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 11, 2018)

Arthas said:


> ?
> 
> Itachi was not just supposed to be a genius at being a ninja but fairly smart period.
> 
> ...



Those are all about ninja, strategy and spying skills. He even said it himself; when Kabuto praise that Itachi is good at lying, Itachi answers that Kabuto is a better spy than he his and is a very good liar too. The ability to read people is also a ninja skill, useful for spy.
Fukaku mentioned Itachi was never good with people, and we see it multiple times during his youth. Between his awkward interactions with Kid Sasuke, the fact that he speaks with almost nobody in his job ( Although that is most commonly seen in the anime. )
I don't say he's dumb. He's an excellent ninja. He graduated from the academy at an early young age, so he was super good for his age.

But he's no Kabuto or Orochimaru, that's for sure. He's above Orochimaru in pure skills, but as far as intellect goes.

Itachi has been hyped to be a very skillful ninja, with an innate talent for it. He was knowledgable in history, ninjutsu and everything needed to be a ninja... But beyond that ... I mean he's no Shikamaru.
Nobody ever praised Itachi outside of his profession. Because almost nobody knew him outside his job.

I'm going out on a limb here, if Itachi had common sense and people skill ... there would have been no story. Itachi has to be a flawed character for the story to be.


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## Corvida (Jun 11, 2018)

Yagami1211 said:


> Those are all about ninja, strategy and spying skills. He even said it himself; when Kabuto praise that Itachi is good at lying, Itachi answers that Kabuto is a better spy than he his and is a very good liar too.
> Fukaku mentioned Itachi was never good with people, and we see it multiple times during his youth. Between his awkward interactions with Sasuke, the fact that he speaks with almost nobody in his job ( Although that is most commonly saw in the anime. )
> I don't say he's dumb. He's an excellent ninja. He graduated from the academy at an early young age, so he was super good for his age.
> 
> ...




ASPD


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 11, 2018)

Corvida said:


> ASPD



That's the tl;dr version, yes.
And he's married to his job.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kisame (Jun 11, 2018)

Milliardo said:


> I explained in the same paragraph why he was hated and you ignored it only focusing on the first sentence. I'm not sure why since you want to understand why people hate Itachi.


The only thing I ignored was him having fans, because it's irrelevant.


> Itachi gets hyped 100x more than Hiruzen


Itachi had to endure more than Hiruzen.


> and he kills off his family without even trying to save them oh and most importantly it was poor writing.


And _ordering_ someone to kill their family is cool? 




> If he is no longer suited for the job it most certainly has to do with his position as the Hokage.


So now people are making excuses for the massacre when it's not Itachi who's in the conversation. 

"Hiruzen was not fit for the job so that's an excuse why he ordered the massacre of children" 


> Everyone agrees Hiruzen had extremely poor judgement. Also people focus on Itachi because he is popular, shown more, and has way more hype. Therefore more fans and haters as well which get more people hyping him and hating him. Why is this so hard?


You're still not understanding me:

People say Itachi being a hero is bad writing because he killed innocent people. ergo Itachi should be cast in bad light by the author
However we have an example of someone more responsible than Itachi for the massacre who was not portrayed in a bad light, so why are people not mad at him? Because he's not Itachi.

The author painted Hiruzen as your good old man and Itachi as a hero, however from the author's perspective the Uchiha massacre was an inevitable choice. Itachi's heroic status is _because he took the blame for it._

Unless of course you want Hiruzen to take the blame for giving the order and then we can all agree how he is a child killer?


> Oh and lol Itachi questioning his actions? Dude Itachi is hyped to be a super genius that can do no wrong yet did nothing.


So because Hiruzen wasn't hyped to be a genius, he is okay for ordering the slaughter of children?



> A 13 year old kid with the mind of Hokage at age 7! Blame Kishi for that.
> 
> Ok? It was still Itachi's CHOICE to do it. It was HIS family. Hiruzen was a pushover who relied on Danzo to do the dirty work. Itachi could have easily disregarded that order but he followed it through not seeking any other option.


"Hiruzen was a push over who relied on Danzo"

So if you're a push over ordering the massacre of children is not that bad, I mean as long as you're just a push over right?

The fact that you're making excuses to explain Hiruzen as less worse than Itachi for giving the order is enough really.

The rest of your post re-states your points without giving me the indication that mine were addressed.

It looks like we're gonna have to agree to disagree.

I'll say this though: Personally I have always looked at the Uchiha massacre situation as a case of an inevitable tragedy that had to happen, yes it was undoubtedly plagued by bad writing and this stuck out to me when Sasuke who wanted revenge on the elders (and Hiruzen if he would have been alive) was portrayed as a vengeful idiot by the author rather than someone seeking justice etc.

For me it's either we go by the author's view of it in which case it was unavoidable tradegy or we can dissect it and critic it in which case literally all sides would be to blame (The Uchiha who were portrayed as "we're mad you're treating as second-class citizens so we'll kill you!" Hiruzen and the gang "Slaughter them before they slaughter us!".

Everything was messy and everyone was portrayed as something they are not, not just Itachi. For Itachi to be singled out is the result of fans already being bombarded by Itachitards and then not being able to take what the manga says about Itachi.


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## Sequester (Jun 12, 2018)

Shark said:


> The only thing I ignored was him having fans, because it's irrelevant.
> 
> Itachi had to endure more than Hiruzen.
> 
> ...



The whole Uchiha massacre conflict was written poorly, along with everyone who took part in it. Itachi is highlighted because the character is synonymous with the conflict, it is also why there is a strong dislike for Sasuke within the Naruto community, because the way both Sasuke and Itachi handled the hand they had been dealt was absolutely idiotic. Hiruzen was a joke within the Uchiha massacre plot, no one is giving him a pass for allowing himself to be cucked by Danzo as much as he was. Hiruzen just had other subplots going for him that allow fans to not focus on that huge stain in his resume. The same can't be said for Itachi and Sasuke.


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## Milliardo (Jun 12, 2018)

Shark said:


> The only thing I ignored was him having fans, because it's irrelevant.


You stripped it from the paragraph like thats all I posted... I posted it because Itachi isn't only hated and you made it seem like all he gets is hate. Every character gets hated on in case you didn't know and most of these characters did not have anywhere near the fans Itachi had Sharky. 

Also strange how you talk of relevancy when you don't really seem to care about why people hate Itachi anyways..



> Itachi had to endure more than Hiruzen.


 Lol What? I have to ask are you an Itachi fanboy? You coming off pro Itachi pretty hard here...




> And _ordering_ someone to kill their family is cool?


 Well it was Danzo that originally forced the idea. Do we ever actually see Hiruzen give the order to Itachi directly? Cuz i hate to go look through the stupid manga over this. I don't doubt it just don't remember. Not that it matters greatly.

Anyways on to your point so killing your own family is cool and not worse than some guy (government official behind a desk) or whatever for "ordering" this? Where are you from? Is it ok to kill your mother, father, brother, uncle, aunt, cousins, and second cousins and so on there? Maybe they are thinking of doing something horrible would you kill them over it?

I noticed you didn't answer my question about this and I wonder why? Well I don't really because this narrative of putting hate on Hiruzen over Itachi seems to highlight something else for me. Still I would like you to answer that question because its going to shed some light on your intentions and mindset I believe anyways.

Yeah though Hiruzen was bad in part of it and certainly isn't excused but Hiruzen isn't also glorified and called a hero for it. Who is? Well that would be your beloved Itachi... Itachi gets more hate for it but he also gets alot of damn LOVE for it.

You know I could play your game too? Why isn't Hiruzen praised as much as Itachi for stopping a civil war and world war??? I mean he gave the fucking order right? Itachi is tool who only follows what his master says. Master said kill your family and Itachi gladly followed master's orders. So yeah Hiruzen is a hero for stopping a massive war. Hell why doesn't he get more praise?  




> So now people are making excuses for the massacre when it's not Itachi who's in the conversation.
> 
> "Hiruzen was not fit for the job so that's an excuse why he ordered the massacre of children"


 I guess Itachi being merely a mindless tool shouldn't be considered in the conversation.

Still you opened my eyes Hiruzen is a hero! Thanking you for ordering the Uchiha Massacre 3rd Hokage! 



> You're still not understanding me:
> 
> People say Itachi being a hero is bad writing because he killed innocent people. ergo Itachi should be cast in bad light by the author
> 
> However we have an example of someone more responsible than Itachi for the massacre who was not portrayed in a bad light, so why are people not mad at him? Because he's not Itachi.


I thought I already explained this... Again I don't agree with Hiruzen being more responsible he has a part in it. Also once again Hiruzen doesn't get praised out the ass for it in manga and out. Itachi DOES. Do you understand this?




> The author painted Hiruzen as your good old man and Itachi as a hero, however from the author's perspective the Uchiha massacre was an inevitable choice. Itachi's heroic status is _because he took the blame for it._


Yet Itachi is glorified for it.... Hashirama: "Your bother is a better ninja than me" Naruto: "Itachi, you have done enough" Hiruzen: "Mind of hokage at seven years old"  Danzo: "You were Itachi's only mistake"

If itachi is a hero over it then what does that make Hiruzen for ordering it? How come he ONLY takes the negative end of it? According to you he was more important yet he felt like shit when talking about it with Sasuke and had no praise. Doesn't make sense to me.




> Unless of course you want Hiruzen to take the blame for giving the order and then we can all agree how he is a child killer?


Sure as along as he is considered a hero like Itachi.




> So because Hiruzen wasn't hyped to be a genius, he is okay for ordering the slaughter of children?


How come he isn't considered hero but Itachi is? Why is Itachi praised for it but Hiruzen isn't? Seriously why does Hiruzen only deserve the negative end? I want an answer to this question as well.




> "Hiruzen was a push over who relied on Danzo"
> 
> So if you're a push over ordering the massacre of children is not that bad, I mean as long as you're just a push over right?
> 
> The fact that you're making excuses to explain Hiruzen as less worse than Itachi for giving the order is enough really.


Ok I've explained that it was horrible leadership don't get me wrong but to pretend like Itachi was a mindless drone that couldn't wipe his own ass without being told is too much for me. 

I mean words are some how worse than actions??? What of you and Itachi? You seem to look at the criticism and claim its all bullshit and people only see what they want to see. You have only ever challenged it and claimed Hiruzen is worse. So Itachi has no fault whatsoever? That is a heavily biased view and in my mind you are an Itachi fanboy.

I don't even understand what you were trying to get out of this other than try to challenge the hate Itachi gets and put the blame all on Hiruzen... I thought it was to understand the hate.


You also ran from my question so that kinda already tells me you are an Itachi fanboy right there. I was hoping that wouldn't be the case.




> The rest of your post re-states your points without giving me the indication that mine were addressed.


I've explained multiple times and gave multiple examples but you not accepting them isn't my problem that starts with you. Whether you agree with it or not doesn't invalidate them. As an Itachi fan you would never agree with them anyways.




> It looks like we're gonna have to agree to disagree.


There wasn't anything really to agree or disagree with truthfully. I gave an explanation why people hated him and you challenged it as an Itachi fan obviously.





> I'll say this though: Personally I have always looked at the Uchiha massacre situation as a case of an inevitable tragedy that had to happen, yes it was undoubtedly plagued by bad writing and this stuck out to me when Sasuke who wanted revenge on the elders (and Hiruzen if he would have been alive) was portrayed as a vengeful idiot by the author rather than someone seeking justice etc.


So only Sasuke's story is bad writing to you? Thats what stuck out to you.. 




> For me it's either we go by the author's view of it in which case it was unavoidable tradegy or we can dissect it and critic it in which case literally all sides would be to blame (The Uchiha who were portrayed as "we're mad you're treating as second-class citizens so we'll kill you!" Hiruzen and the gang "Slaughter them before they slaughter us!".


Thats fine as your opinion.




> Everything was messy and everyone was portrayed as something they are not, not just Itachi. For Itachi to be singled out is the result of fans already being bombarded by Itachitards and then not being able to take what the manga says about Itachi.


Again your opinion nothing more. You not agreeing with their claims does not invalidate them at all.


As I've mentioned multiple times(in this post) while reading your words I've come to the conclusion you are an Itachi fanboy and no explanation will ever be good enough for you. So from here after it would be a waste of time to try and help you understand the hatred of the character.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 12, 2018)

And they're going at it again.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Milliardo (Jun 13, 2018)

I wanna clarify a few things too. When I say Hiruzen was a pushover I mean Itachi had leeway on his options because of that. Like nothing was set in stone. Danzo is the one pushing for the Uchiha Massacre Hiruzen originally wanted to talk it out with them.

Itachi is the bridge between the Uchiha and Konoha only he could set things straight. The Uchiha wouldn't listen to people outside the clan. Itachi has information both sides don't know about like Obito.(This should have been told to Hiruzen)  He could also explained to the Uchiha the horrible position they are in with Konoha knowing of their sneak attack.

Saying the Uchiha Massacre was inevitable isn't exactly true either. Itachi never tried to explain the situation with his parents with Sasuke. Itachi mentions this himself. The Uchiha were banking on the sneak attack as it was their only means of success along with Itachi working with them. So if Itachi explains that Konoha knows and he won't be helping them then obviously they wouldn't be gung ho as they would know failure is guaranteed. Looking at their 7/8 year son I don't believe they would be ready to throw their lives away and leave his life in ruin because reality would hit them hard in that moment.

Itachi has the biggest and most important role in the Uchiha Massacre. He had the knowledge and power to either save his people or execute them. No one else could have helped them to that extent Itachi could in that scenario specifically.


Moving past the massacre Itachi's actions are very questionable as usual. The abusive treatment of Sasuke and filling his head with hatred only makes things far worse for Sasuke as he becomes more mentally unstable and confused. This leads Sasuke to abandon Konoha and join Orochimaru who could have taken over Sasuke if not for Naruto. This path later leads to Sasuke becoming an enemy of Konoha his beloved village.


Itachi's actions in Akatsuki yeah definitely questionable and confusing. Only helping Akatsuki never hindering them. He helped them recruit Deidara and absorb biju in gedo. Never leaving a trail to them or giving any information out to Konoha that could help stop them. This doesn't make sense at all.


Poor writing is definitely a huge problem with Itachi's character and a lot of hate follows because of it. It's no different than people hating Sasuke after Itachi's death because he was written horribly. Hopefully some can get a better understanding with this. With these arguments things get jumbled and the meaning is lost so I wanted to clearly explain the dislike of Itachi's actions.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 2


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## Sequester (Jun 13, 2018)

Milliardo said:


> I wanna clarify a few things too. When I say Hiruzen was a pushover I mean Itachi had leeway on his options because of that. Like nothing was set in stone. Danzo is the one pushing for the Uchiha Massacre Hiruzen originally wanted to talk it out with them.
> 
> Itachi is the bridge between the Uchiha and Konoha only he could set things straight. The Uchiha wouldn't listen to people outside the clan. Itachi has information both sides don't know about like Obito.(This should have been told to Hiruzen)  He could also explained to the Uchiha the horrible position they are in with Konoha knowing of their sneak attack.
> 
> ...



Exactly, Sasuke often gets called out for the horrible writing behind his story, and Itachi does to a lesser extent... I think both are equally terrible, due to the fact they reside within the same counterintuitive plotline.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Entae (Jul 5, 2018)

lol


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