# Fingolfin vs. Turin Turambar



## copydog123 (Nov 8, 2012)

Yes more Tolkien 

Both of them are reputed to be great warriors. 

Fingolfin was able to injure Morgoth. And Turin is prophecized to fight Morgoth towards the end of times. 

Only difference is that Fingolfin is an elf and Turin is a human I think. 




*Spoiler*: __ 




And yes I have not read The Silmarillion. Am planning to though pretty soon. I guess this became obvious in my last thread "Tulkas vs. Sauron, Saruman".

 Although I have followed debates on Tolkien forums and read about his characters here and there to have some idea


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

This is a hard question to answer. Since there is never a direct comparison. Fingolfin is the greatest fighter amongst the elves, but Turin is not as powerful a fighter as his father.

There is still enough evidence and statements from accepted cannon to imply Turin was physically stronger than any elf. 
1. In the LOTR when discussing the Shelob it mentions how no hand could have delivered more damage than Sam; not even Beren and Turin. Implying that Beren and Turin are the two physically strongest amongst elves and men.
2. In the Children of Hurin, there is a line where Turin is said to be stronger than any elf.
3. The dragon helm Turin wore was too heavy for even Hurin to wear comfortably. Neither could Fingon, Fingolfin's son. 

So I think it is fair to say Turin has the strength advantage.

When it comes to agility the advantage is clearly with Fingolfin, but it is not as bigger gap as people would think. Turin trained very hard in Doriath and had achieved the agility of an elf. 

Fingolfin being an elf is naturally more durable and it would take more severe wounds to put him down.

Turin wields the Black Sword Gurthang, which is probably superior to Ringil. Gurthang did eventually kill everything it drew blood from. He would also have the Dragon Helm to give him extra protection.

Fingolfin had the greater spiritual power, but not enough for it to hold an advantage here. 

Fingolfin did put up a good fight against Morgoth, but this was Morgoth and not Melkor. Morgoth had squandered  most of his power controlling the world. The Balrogs gathered together for instance appear to be stronger than him physically. A low end number for the Balrogs is 3 and the high end is 7. At the lowest scale it does put into perspective how weak Morgoth had become personally. Other letters from Tolkien imply that Second Age Sauron was not too far away from end of First Age Morgoth in power. 

Turin DID kill Glaurung and this was no mean feat. He may have stabbed him from under the gorge, but Glaurung was more powerful than Maiar such as Melian. 

Overall I am still undecided. Both had incredible will. Would probably call it a draw with both mutually killing each other.


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## blueblip (Nov 8, 2012)

I would like to give this to Turin, considering the stuff he's done and is prophesied to do, but Fingolfin has the better feats - namely going toe to toe with Morgoth and wounding him deeply. Yes, Morgoth was no where near the power he had has Melkor, but he was still powerful enough that the elves and men would not have been able to beat him without the help of the Valar.


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

blueblip said:


> I would like to give this to Turin, considering the stuff he's done and is prophesied to do, but Fingolfin has the better feats - namely going toe to toe with Morgoth and wounding him deeply. Yes, Morgoth was no where near the power he had has Melkor, but he was still powerful enough that the elves and men would not have been able to beat him without the help of the Valar.



Again I am not sure this is the case. If Morgoth especially at the end of the First Age was say to face Feanor, Fingolfin, Turin and Hurin; I don't think he would survive. The problem being that he had control in some part of the WHOLE of Middle Earth. Middle Eart was his ring and he creatures like Glaurung, Carcharoth, Anchalogon, Gothmog, other Balrogs, other maiar and legions upon legions of soldiers. 

It was a similar situation to Saruon. If Sauron had faced Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel and Glorfindel he would certainly die. When you have close to a million soldiers and the Nazgul at your side then that does not matter.

EDIT
As I said before Balrogs>Ungoliant>Morgoth in a pure fight.

Considering there were probably around 4/5 Balrogs it says a lot. 4/5 Balrogs>Morgoth in a physical fight.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 8, 2012)

Balrogs chasing away Ungoliath after it was high on God juice from trees that could birth the sun and moon then stomping even a nerfed Morgoth makes no sense to me. Gandalf beat a Balrog after days of fighting and a double fatality(most if not all encounters with them lead to double fatality though Gandalf came back from death), don't think Gandalf can last anywhere near as long as Fingolfin against Morgoth.

Fingolfin scared entire armies and did better against nerfed Morgoth than anyone could have expected, bloodlusted/rage mode Fingolfin should atleast be as strong as 2 Balrogs.


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## Akabara Strauss (Nov 8, 2012)

The numbers of Balrogs were never really established, especially in the published versions of Tolkiens work. IIRC they were supposedly number thousands then Tolkien retconned them to like 5? For me it makes no sense that Melkor only has 5 of them seeing as the Valar has an army of Maia.

As for the fight, Fingolfin should win. Turin is not even the strongest among men, that spot is held by Hurin and perhaps Beren. Granted that Fingolfin fought Morgoth and not Melkor, yet Morgoth is still Vala.


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Balrogs chasing away Ungoliath after it was high on God juice from trees that could birth the sun and moon then stomping even a nerfed Morgoth makes no sense to me. Gandalf beat a Balrog after days of fighting and a double fatality(most if not all encounters with them lead to double fatality though Gandalf came back from death), don't think Gandalf can last anywhere near as long as Fingolfin against Morgoth.
> 
> Fingolfin scared entire armies and did better against nerfed Morgoth than anyone could have expected, bloodlusted/rage mode Fingolfin should atleast be as strong as 2 Balrogs.



I agree Balrogs are very powerful, but ELVES did beat them. I also agree with your assessment that Fingolfin would be a match for around 2 Balrogs, but guess what so was Feanor. In many ways Feanor's feat was equal to that of Fingolfin, but not as glorious, though perhaps equally foolhardily. Fingolfins's heir Fingon was only killed when he had to face two Balrogs at the same time. 

Fingolfin is the best fighter amongst the elves, but if he was to fight say Maedros, Fingon, Feanor, Galadriel, Ecthelion or Glorfindel; he would struggle and come out wounded though most likely the victor.




> The numbers of Balrogs were never really established, especially in the published versions of Tolkiens work. IIRC they were supposedly number thousands then Tolkien retconned them to like 5? For me it makes no sense that Melkor only has 5 of them seeing as the Valar has an army of Maia.


Yes Tolkien drastically increased their power and thus reduced their number. He even said there was no reason there should be more than 3 and at the maximum 7.

*'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'"*

The Balrogs are very powerful maiar. It makes sense that Melkor did not have a host of them. He DID have other Maiar that took the shapes of great orcs, werewolves, vampires etc. 


> As for the fight, Fingolfin should win. Turin is not even the strongest among men, that spot is held by Hurin and perhaps Beren. Granted that Fingolfin fought Morgoth and not Melkor, yet Morgoth is still Vala.


When you say strongest? Turin probably IS the physically strongest man. However, you are right Hurin was a better and more mightier fighter. 

That said Turin might be the best match up against an elf. He is man, who achieved elvish agility, is stronger than any elf and seems to be faster than them as well. Add his superior weaponry and arsenal then the odds are in his favour.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 8, 2012)

Well Fingolfin is the most powerful warrior amongst elves and while I do agree certain characters can match him he should win especially against Turin. Morgoth is still more powerful than most in his army(depends on if you count Ungoliath part of it but seemed more of a temporary alliance) even in that weakened state that's arguably the best feat a warrior can have to wound him multiple times before going down.

Now if you're saying certain others could wound him once or twice then sure but I doubt as many times as Fingolfin did.


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Well Fingolfin is the most powerful warrior amongst elves and while I do agree certain characters can match him he should win especially against Turin. Morgoth is still more powerful than most in his army even in that weakened state that's arguably the best feat a warrior can have to wound him multiple times before going down.



I don't think weakened state Morgoth was more powerful physically  than Glaurung. Glarung was destroying elvish armies by himself as a baby. In the battle of unnumbered tears, Glaurung alone was going to destroy the elves.

Melian pretty much says nothing in Middle Earth at that time had the power of Glaurung.

Fair enough you believe Fingolfin would win. There is not enough information to conclude the matter with certainty. Either way it would be a close fight.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 8, 2012)

based on feats? This isn't a close fight- Turins sword is broken and he was very strong but he's facing a monster and Fingy should appropriately ruin him

Turins putting up a fight but that's it


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> based on feats? This isn't a close fight- Turins sword is broken and he was very strong but he's facing a monster and Fingy should appropriately ruin him
> 
> Turins putting up a fight but that's it



What do you mean Turin's sword is broken? The sword only broke when he killed himself. 

Gurthang kills whatever it bites. If the sword cuts you it WILL kill you.

Turin was a monster himself. It's been said on several places, that he could pass for one of for a Fingolfin or his close relatives. 

When it comes to pure physical strength, the edge goes to Turin. When it comes to pure speed, it seems Turin has the edge too. Turin has the superior weaponry and only slightly inferior in agility. There is no Elf or man who could wreck Turin.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 8, 2012)

Broken is an expression don't you frequent the Aangbad of this site? Your uchiha confederates use that term all the time to describe their favorite characters eyes

When it comes to physical strength and speed and durability I'm going with the guy who got stepped on by morgoth and wasn't immediately turned into soup, who danced around blows that were dropped hard and fast enough to carve up the ground


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Broken is an expression don't you frequent the Aangbad of this site? Your uchiha confederates use that term all the time to describe their favorite characters eyes
> 
> When it comes to physical strength and speed and durability I'm going with the guy who got stepped on by morgoth and wasn't immediately turned into soup, who danced around blows that were dropped hard and fast enough to carve up the ground



Do you realise that 3 Balrogs fighting together are probably tougher than the Morgoth Fingolfin faced? Do you realise that Elendil and Gil-galad fought a Sauron close to the same strength as Morgoth? Fingolfin's feat is on the same level as Feanor's. 

Morgoth was probably around 11ft or so and definitely not above 15ft. The paintings of him as a giant are not supported by the text. 

Average height for a Noldor male was about 6,4. Now Fingolfin's family was exceptionally tall. So let us say he was around 7ft or so give or take. Turin around the same height.


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## willyvereb (Nov 8, 2012)

Sauron?
Close to the strength of Morgoth?
Sure you jest.

If anything as time went on Sauron became gradually weaker. Partially due to his mistakes/overconfidence and because he was relying too much on the One Ring.


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Sauron?
> Close to the strength of Morgoth?
> Sure you jest.
> 
> If anything as time went on Sauron became gradually weaker. Partially due to his mistakes/overconfidence and because he was relying too much on the One Ring.



No offense, but Tolkien spent his life writing to these stories.  He thought about everything.

Melkor originally was by far the most powerful thing in the world, but he squandered his power. Melkor managed to contaminate every physical thing in the universe. Everything in the world bends slightly to his will. Everything from rocks, to snow etc. This is why his curse on Turin was such a powerful thing.

Now you can imagine the power that must be exerted to contaminate virtually every molecule in the world.

By doing this he became MUCH MUCH weaker. Originally not even Manwe could look him in the eyes. The next time they met Manwe was shocked at just how weak Morgoth had become.

Anyway Morgoth did not stop there he went about creating more evil creatures and expending even more power.

Now Sauron on the other hand simply used the power Morgoth had already exerted since he was following his will. For example the mountain Caradhras. It was Melkor, who poured his evil into the mountain. This actively took a lot of power out of Morgoth. Sauron on the other hand only had to utilise Morgoth's essence.

This meant Sauron himself could keep most of his PERSONAL power. So by the time of the Second Age when it came to PERSONAL power there was not a big gap between them.

*Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavor to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and live on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently ‘incarnate’: for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.*
*
Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way, Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things.*


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 8, 2012)

arednad said:


> Do you realise that 3 Balrogs fighting together are probably tougher than the *Morgoth Fingolfin faced?* Do you realise that Elendil and Gil-galad fought a Sauron close to the same strength as Morgoth? Fingolfin's feat is on the same level as Feanor's.
> 
> Morgoth was probably around 11ft or so and definitely not above 15ft. The paintings of him as a giant are not supported by the text.
> 
> Average height for a Noldor male was about 6,4. Now Fingolfin's family was exceptionally tall. So let us say he was around 7ft or so give or take. Turin around the same height.



That's why Balrogs totally ran out and gangbanged Fingolfin...

oh wait..they were hiding in terror and Morgoth had to man up and fight him or face mutiny



willyvereb said:


> Sauron?
> Close to the strength of Morgoth?
> Sure you jest.
> 
> If anything as time went on Sauron became gradually weaker. Partially due to his mistakes/overconfidence and because he was relying too much on the One Ring.



Morgoth at his absolute weakest was dragged out and punked by a Maiar..that being said same Maiar would one shot Sauron casually

Tolkien said that.. Sauron more or less at his *absolute strongest* rivaled Morgoth *at his absolute weakest*

This would be after he invested much of his remaining power in Ancalagog the black and was so weakened by that point he was thrown into the void after being aprehended by IIRC the strongest Maiar ever

as to his level when he fought Fingolfin..he was very clearly superior to Sauron at his last alliance levels

that being said Sauron has more balls then Morgoth- he'd be more willing to take risks and stuff where as Morgoth tended to wait until he had no other choice

Sauron defying the wrath of Eru in his own church when he knew numenor was going to be completely destroyed around him is a good example

in the beginning Melkor would have done that..Morgoth not so much


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> That's why Balrogs totally ran out and gangbanged Fingolfin...
> 
> oh wait..they were hiding in terror and Morgoth had to man up and fight him or face mutiny


Except this is not what happened. The Balrogs were no cowards. They rushed out and fought Feanor, alongside his personal guard. Feanor is not far off Fingolfin even in just fighting terms. 

It was the other servants of Morgoth that did not fight him, because they thought he was Orome. The same way Huan was scared of Sauron when he first appeared, but when they fought discovered he was stronger.

Morgoth would have loved to send out the Balrogs, but it was a personal challenge. It's made clear the captains ie Balrogs/Sauron are inside Angband at this time. However, Morgoth had just received a personal challenge from the leader of the opposition. It was a matter of pride. There was no way he could it turn it down.


> Morgoth at his absolute weakest was dragged out and punked by a Maiar..that being said same Maiar would one shot Sauron casually
> 
> Tolkien said that.. Sauron more or less at his *absolute strongest* rivaled Morgoth *at his absolute weakest*
> 
> ...



Even before Morgoth had blown virtually all of his power, the Balrogs together were stronger than him,

Ungoliant was straight up stronger than Morgoth. However, the Balrogs gathered together were stronger than her. It's hard to argue against this when it is straight there before us. Possibly as few as 3 Balrogs>Morgoth before he had even corrupted Glaurung and other creatures.

We have been over this before, but Sauron never expected Eru to act. Sauron quite clearly believed that Eru had abandoned the world. Nor did he ever imagine in his wildest dreams that Numenor would be sunk. It was a personal battle between him and Ar-pharzon. He wanted him gone, but Sauron planned to rule Numenor.

*Sauron could not, of course, be a ‘sincere’ atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Ea, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more.*

He never thought Eru would act.

*But though Sauron’s whole true motive was the destruction of the N?men?reans, this was a particular matter of revenge upon Ar-Pharazon, for humiliation. Sauron (unlike Morgoth) would have been content for the N?men?reans to exist, as his own subjects, and indeed he used a great many of them that he corrupted to his allegiance.*

Sauron did not think Numenor would be destroyed, but did assume that the army would be killed.

Though you are right on one point. Sauron had GUTS. He always came out to fight whether it was Huan or Gil-galad and Elendil. Morgoth was a coward.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 8, 2012)

arednad said:


> Except this is not what happened. The Balrogs were no cowards. They rushed out and fought Feanor, alongside his personal guard. Feanor is not far off Fingolfin even in just fighting terms.



and Feanor laughed at them..so?



arednad said:


> It was the other servants of Morgoth that did not fight him, because they fought he was Orome. The same way Huan was scared of Sauron when he first appeared, but when they fought discovered he was stronger.



I like how you're pretending the Balrogs weren't there when such a thing would be important enough to state in the silmarillion



arednad said:


> ]Morgoth would have loved to send out the Balrogs, but it was a personal challenge. It's made clear the captains ie Balrogs/Sauron are inside Angband at this time. However, *Morgoth had just received a personal challenge from the leader of the opposition. It was a matter of pride. There was no way he could it turn it down*.



you do realize that the Balrogs were right there and refused to go out? That they were looking at their master as if he was a pussy? that nowhere in the text does it say they weren't afraid?



Of The Ruin of Beleriand and the fall of Fingolfin said:


> Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the
> defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse
> and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all
> that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Orom? himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him,
> ...



Matter of pride my fucking balls text pretty much says they would have thought him a coward and mutinied on his ass if he didn't




arednad said:


> Even before Morgoth had blown virtually all of his power, the Balrogs together were stronger than him,



So a team of Gandalf, Glorfindale and Ecthelion can wreck Morgoth  then is that what you're saying?  



arednad said:


> Ungoliant was straight up stronger than Morgoth. However, the Balrogs gathered together were stronger than her. It's hard to argue against this when it is straight there before us. Possibly as few as 3 Balrogs>Morgoth before he had even corrupted Glaurung and other creatures.



You know what's really awesome? That it was the entire host of Balrogs backing Morgoth up that drove her away

it does not make them stronger it just means reinforcing his power she was overwhelmed

this is like you claiming Konoahamru can take out Fingolfin it's just as stupid and it should give you an automatic ban from this section..about the only reason it isn't is because you Library fuckwits still seem to have some kind of sympathy from the staff



arednad said:


> We have been over this before, but Sauron never expected Eru to act. Sauron quite clearly believed that Eru had abandoned the world. Nor did he ever imagine in his wildest dreams that Numenor would be sunk. It was a personal battle between him and Ar-pharzon. He wanted him gone, but Sauron planned to rule Numenor.






> Then men grew afraid. 'Behold the Eagles of the Lords of the West!' they cried. 'The Eagles of Manw? are come
> upon N?menor!' And they fell upon their faces.
> Then some few would repent for a season, but others hardened their hearts, and they shook their fists at heaven,
> saying: 'The Lords of the West have plotted against us. They strike first. The next blow shall be ours!' These words the
> ...



...yup totally not standing up to beings who could smoke you



arednad said:


> Sauron did not think Numenor would be destroyed, but did assume that the army would be killed.



...yeah consider what happened during the war of wrath and Sauron having witnessed that first hand. any one encouraging Numenor to invade Valinor was asking for destruction on an unprecedented scale

whether it be by the lords of the west or Eru himself


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> and Feanor laughed at them..so?


Yes and they killed him despite his personal guard being around. The point is the only time a Balrog has ever held back was when Gothmog held back from facing Hurin.


> I like how you're pretending the Balrogs weren't there when such a thing would be important enough to state in the silmarillion


The Balrogs were in Angband with Morgoth. They were not outside running away. Those were orcs. Morgoth was challenged to single combat. Seriously imagine you are in charge of a gang and somebody challenges you to a fight, but you are so scared you send a group of your mates to beat them up. It's not a good look.


> you do realize that the Balrogs were right there and refused to go out? That they were looking at their master as if he was a pussy? that nowhere in the text does it say they weren't afraid?


They did not refuse to go out. They would have if they had been asked. This was a question of pride. If Morgoth wanted he could have sent an army and killed Fingolfin, but that would make him look weak.


> Matter of pride my fucking balls text pretty much says they would have thought him a coward and mutinied on his ass if he didn't


No it does not. Stop making things up. He would be humiliated if he did not go, but there would be no mutiny. He had just won a great victory. No where does it even suggest the Balrogs were scared to go out or in the slightest bit afraid.


> So a team of Gandalf, Glorfindale and Ecthelion can wreck Morgoth  then is that what you're saying?


Yes a team of Gandalf the White, 3rd Age Glorfindel and Ecthelion would kill Morgoth. If 3 or 4 Balrogs are stronger than him, then that team definitely is.


> You know what's really awesome? That it was the entire host of Balrogs backing Morgoth up that drove her away


No. You have such a poor knowledge of Tolkien. How can there be an entire host of Balrogs, when Tolkien said there should be assumed to be 3 and definitely not more than 7?
*'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'"*


> it does not make them stronger it just means reinforcing his power she was overwhelmed


Except that is not what happens in the text. They drive her off themselves and Morgoth plays no part in it.

*With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight, belching black vapours to cover her*

The text is clear. The Balrogs alone were enough to drive her off and there should not be supposed to be more than 3 of them.


> this is like you claiming Konoahamru can take out Fingolfin it's just as stupid and it should give you an automatic ban from this section..about the only reason it isn't is because you Library fuckwits still seem to have some kind of sympathy from the staff


Honestly, I won't resort to insults, because I don't think you are a troll. You are just not the sharpest knife in the draw and have a lack of reading  comprehension. 


> ...yup totally not standing up to beings who could smoke you


Why do you insist on ignoring the words from the author himself. Maybe you are just a troll.

*For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru had laid upon sea and land. It was greater far than aught he had looked for, hoping only for the death of the Numenoreans and the defeat of their proud king.*

Tolkien is very clear about this. Sauron considered the Valar to have abandoned ME. Of course he expected them to wipe of the Numenoreans when they arrived on Aman, but to take no further action. He was shocked and fearful when Eru actually interfered.


> ...yeah consider what happened during the war of wrath and Sauron having witnessed that first hand. any one encouraging Numenor to invade Valinor was asking for destruction on an unprecedented scale
> 
> whether it be by the lords of the west or Eru himself


The Valar regretted the damage from the War of Wrath and did not want to interfere again. This is why the next time they only sent the Istari and Glorfindel. 

Tolkien is very, very clear on the matter.

I have provided quotes from Tolkien himself and from the latest version of the text. At least someone else can read them and come to an accurate understanding.

EDIT
The bits in bold are quotes from Tolkien.


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

> > Even before Morgoth had blown virtually all of his power, the Balrogs together were stronger than him,
> 
> 
> So a team of Gandalf, Glorfindale and Ecthelion can wreck Morgoth then is that what you're saying?


That somehow contradicts


> Matter of pride my fucking balls text pretty much says they would have thought him a coward and mutinied on his ass if he didn't


Why should he be afraid of mutiny if they together are weaker. I think it was a matter of .
You think that the Captains would refuse a Direct order of Morgoth if he is so much stronger than they are? Morgoth was afraid himself and the Balroggs too but fear does not mean they (Morgoth and or his Balrogs)were no threat.

Berserk Rage is nothing you take lightly besides that because in his Rage Fingolfin lost his will for self preservation.

The Balrogs strenght was retconned to be much higher logically if the Numbers are reduced they had to be stronger at that Point.

I don't know if that is abusing this as Tolkien clearly implied much more Balrogs at this Point of the Story.
You don't really need captains for 5-7 
But he (Morgoth) had probably other Troops too?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 8, 2012)

arednad said:


> Yes and they killed him despite his personal guard being around. The point is the only time a Balrog has ever held back was when Gothmog held back from facing Hurin.



Feanor died because his body was so maimed it couldn't handle his soul any more




arednad said:


> The Balrogs were in Angband with Morgoth. They were not outside running away. Those were orcs. Morgoth was challenged to single combat. Seriously imagine you are in charge of a gang and somebody challenges you to a fight, but you are so scared you send a group of your mates to beat them up. It's not a good look.



and this changes anything? everything was afraid of him Morgoth was afraid of him


arednad said:


> They did not refuse to go out. They would have if they had been asked. This was a question of pride. If Morgoth wanted he could have sent an army and killed Fingolfin, but that would make him look weak.



arguing with the silmarillion now? 



arednad said:


> No it does not. Stop making things up. He would be humiliated if he did not go, but there would be no mutiny. He had just won a great victory. No where does it even suggest the Balrogs were scared to go out or in the slightest bit afraid.



you think Konohamaru can kill first age Elves and you dishonestly push your fan theories as evidence in debates as if they're canon..you are no in no position to question anyone


arednad said:


> Yes a team of Gandalf the White, 3rd Age Glorfindel and Ecthelion would kill Morgoth. If 3 or 4 Balrogs are stronger than him, then that team definitely is.







arednad said:


> ]No. You have such a poor knowledge of Tolkien. How can there be an entire host of Balrogs, when Tolkien said there should be assumed to be 3 and definitely not more than 7?
> *'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'"*



Yes, seven would count as the entire host due to that being all their is as a species   

keep trying to misrepresent my posts..but do keep in mind that is actually against the rules now..



arednad said:


> Except that is not what happens in the text. They drive her off themselves and Morgoth plays no part in it.
> 
> *With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight, belching black vapours to cover her*



well thanks for posting that so I don't have to dig into the PDF's myself- this certainly proves she was afraid or overpowered as opposed too cutting her losses and bailing- this was a predatory creature she had lost the advantage there was no need for her to continue



arednad said:


> The text is clear. The Balrogs alone were enough to drive her off and there should not be supposed to be more than 3 of them.



le gasp... this means..so much

oh...wait no it doesn't



arednad said:


> Honestly, I won't resort to insults, because I don't think you are a troll. You are just not the sharpest knife in the draw and have a lack of reading  comprehension.



See the problem with this passive aggressive insult..is that you have been caught lying, you necroed a thread which is trollish behavior and against the rules in the OBD..you were mocked by a mod for being biased..and every time we debate LOTR material people call for your banning



arednad said:


> Why do you insist on ignoring the words from the author himself. Maybe you are just a troll.
> 
> *For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru had laid upon sea and land. It was greater far than aught he had looked for, hoping only for the death of the Numenoreans and the defeat of their proud king.*



i like how you call me a troll yet fail to read properly my original point

which was Sauron had more balls than Morgoth 



arednad said:


> Tolkien is very clear about this. Sauron considered the Valar to have abandoned ME. Of course he expected them to wipe of the Numenoreans when they arrived on Aman, but to take no further action. He was shocked and fearful when Eru actually interfered.
> 
> The Valar regretted the damage from the War of Wrath and did not want to interfere again. This is why the next time they only sent the Istari and Glorfindel.



And where does this contradict my original point on testicular fortitude? 




arednad said:


> Tolkien is very, very clear on the matter.
> 
> I have provided quotes from Tolkien himself and from the latest version of the text. At least someone else can read them and come to an accurate understanding.



I've provided posts from the Silmarillion as well that you chose to twist and ignore and lie as you usually do does not surprise me




mcdave said:


> That somehow contradicts



...


mcdave said:


> Why should he be afraid of mutiny if they together are weaker. I think it was a matter of .
> You think that the Captains would refuse a Direct order of Morgoth if he is so much stronger than they are? Morgoth was afraid himself and the Balroggs too but fear does not mean they (Morgoth and or his Balrogs)were no threat.



I think that they would refuse a direct order from Morgoth when the guy alone could no longer wage war and at that point he needed all his forces yes


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Feanor died because his body was so maimed it couldn't handle his soul any more


No Feanor died, because Gothmog killed him. To be fair to Feanor he was fighting ALL the Balrogs. However, Gothmog the Bane of Elves handed him the death blow.

*Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, whom Ecthelion slew in Gondolin. There he would have perished, had not his sons in that moment come with force to his aid*....*.Feanor bade them holt, because his wounds were mortal,*


> and this changes anything? everything was afraid of him Morgoth was afraid of him


Morgoth was coward and never left his castle again. The Balrogs would have fought had they been ordered.


> arguing with the silmarillion now?


I have just provided you with quotes.


> Yes, seven would count as the entire host due to that being all their is as a species
> keep trying to misrepresent my posts..but do keep in mind that is actually against the rules now..


You really don't know what you are talking about. Tolkien point blank says that they should be supposed to be 3 Balrogs and definitely not more than 7 and you argue against him? You just don't know what you are talking about. Bringing up the earliest drafts when there was an army of Balrogs, displays your lack of knowledge. At that point in the story Sauron was a giant cat and Gothmog was the son of Morgoth etc. The story changed. Or do you think Aragorn was a Hobbit tortured by Sauron too?


> well thanks for posting that so I don't have to dig into the PDF's myself- this certainly proves she was afraid or overpowered as opposed too cutting her losses and bailing- this was a predatory creature she had lost the advantage there was no need for her to continue


LOL
She was overpowered and scared. Do you know what quailed means? Go and look it up. She was outclassed by the Balrogs and was running for her lfie.


> le gasp... this means..so much
> 
> oh...wait no it doesn't


It's quite clear. 3 or Balrogs are more powerful than Morgoth in a physical fight.


> See the problem with this passive aggressive insult..is that you have been caught lying, you necroed a thread which is trollish behavior and against the rules in the OBD..you were mocked by a mod for being biased..and every time we debate LOTR material people call for your banning


It seems you cannot put up an argument. Either learn to debate or give up. Better yet read the source material so you know what you are talking about.


> i like how you call me a troll yet fail to read properly my original point
> 
> which was Sauron had more balls than Morgoth


Now who is lying. I agreed Sauron had more guts than Morgoth, but you said he was not afraid of Eru's wrath.

Sauron defying the wrath of Eru in his own church when he knew numenor was going to be completely destroyed around him is a good example

Your own words, which are evidently false. He just never thought Eru would interfere or the Valar actually do anything against Numenor itself. He may have been stupid, but that was his assumption. Tolkien says evil people are stupid.


> And where does this contradict my original point on testicular fortitude?


I have already pointed out that it contradicts your argument he was defying Eru's wrath. Sauron was scared of the Valar let alone Eru. No way would he have done that if he thought Eru would react.


> I've provided posts from the Silmarillion as well that you chose to twist and ignore and lie as you usually do does not surprise me


No you just fail to realise that there are many, many books clarifying things in the Silmarillion. Try reading Morgoth's Ring or People's of Middle Earth. Or read the actual Lay of Leithian. 

They go into great detail about the workings of the world, which you like to ignore. Ultimately Christopher Tolkien has SOLE right to decide what is canon. You cannot pick and choose unfinished stories Tolkien wrote as a teenager to be part of his final vision. We may not like it, but it's very clear the LOTR world was never flat now. This is a change I personally think weakens the story. Other changes are Galadriel did not travel with the main host of Noldor. All we can do is accept the final vision. He did not publish those stories and so we have to accept the changes.

Tolkien himself was very generous and did not want to change anything in print unless absolutely vital to the story like Bilbo/Gollum and the gift of the ring. We should be happy we can read his unfinished stories, but realise that he had no place for them as they stood in the canon.


> I think that they would refuse a direct order from Morgoth when the guy alone could no longer wage war and at that point he needed all his forces yes


It's not that simple. Where are they going to go and Morgoth's spiritual power was still great. In his presence I don't think any of his servants could outright defy him. Anymore than the 9 Nazgul could easily turn against Sauron even if ordered by a new ring master. Hence why Hurin looking him in the eyes and defying him is the greatest feat by any man in the story.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 8, 2012)

arednad said:


> No Feanor died, because Gothmog killed him. To be fair to Feanor he was fighting ALL the Balrogs. However, Gothmog the Bane of Elves handed him the death blow.



Feanor died DOI..he died because his body was too badly damaged to contain his "fire"



arednad said:


> *Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, whom Ecthelion slew in Gondolin. There he would have perished, had not his sons in that moment come with force to his aid*....*.Feanor bade them holt, because his wounds were mortal,*



uh oh..we're guilty of misrepresentation now



arednad said:


> Morgoth was coward and never left his castle again. The Balrogs would have fought had they been ordered.



read the fucking passage again idiot


arednad said:


> I have just provided you with quotes.



that you misrepresent to your own end




arednad said:


> You really don't know what you are talking about. Tolkien point blank says that they should be supposed to* be 3 Balrogs and definitely not more than 7 and you argue against him?*



No moronj I don't what I do consider is all seven of those Balrogs to be a host..as individually they were one man armies..the fact that Tolkien agrees with me supports this

You wanna lie again about my posts



arednad said:


> LOL
> She was overpowered and scared. Do you know what quailed means? Go and look it up. She was outclassed by the Balrogs and was running for her lfie.



she was out classed by three Balrogs plus Morgoth



arednad said:


> It's quite clear. 3 or Balrogs are more powerful than Morgoth in a physical fight.



No they aren't


arednad said:


> It seems you cannot put up an argument. Either learn to debate or give up. Better yet read the source material so you know what you are talking about.



What are you talking about? Every time you and I go at it you end up running away or the thread ends up closed..either way cries of "why isn't Arednad banned" start rising pretty quick whenever you post

that puts you firmly in a "not qualified to make such comments position"

Seriously you're lucky your master has undue authority and sway over the S mod who watches the OBD..if it weren't for NarutoxNaruko you'd be done





arednad said:


> Now who is lying. I agreed Sauron had more guts than Morgoth, but you said he was not afraid of Eru's wrath.
> 
> Sauron defying the wrath of Eru in his own church when he knew numenor was going to be completely destroyed around him is a good example
> 
> Your own words, which are evidently false. He just never thought Eru would interfere or the Valar actually do anything against Numenor itself. He may have been stupid, but that was his assumption. Tolkien says evil people are stupid.



You know what's really awesome? How nowhere in that post do i say "Sauron was totally not afraid of god"

so you were saying?


arednad said:


> I have already pointed out that it contradicts your argument he was defying Eru's wrath. Sauron was scared of the Valar let alone Eru. No way would he have done that if he thought Eru would react.



you realize that it only contradicts my statement if my statement was the one you misread in your deluded and desperate mind and not what I actually said?



arednad said:


> No you just fail to realise that there are many, many books clarifying things in the Silmarillion. Try reading Morgoth's Ring or People's of Middle Earth. Or read the actual Lay of Leithian.



you know god damn well how insane things can get either on the severe downplay or high end what could have been for both sides of those books

and you know I'm not using either so shove it



arednad said:


> They go into great detail about the workings of the world, which you like to ignore. Ultimately Christopher Tolkien has SOLE right to decide what is canon. You cannot pick and choose unfinished stories Tolkien wrote as a teenager to be part of his final vision. We may not like it, but it's very clear the LOTR world was never flat now. This is a change I personally think weakens the story. Other changes are Galadriel did not travel with the main host of Noldor. All we can do is accept the final vision. He did not publish those stories and so we have to accept the changes.



You mean like the versions where tanks burn through mountains and Numenorians have napalm like bombs? 

because hey if we're going to use divergent essay like sources I could really wratchet this shit up- but I wont because I'm not a fanboy..or a chronic downplayer with an agenda like you


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

He is a Downplayer in Verse vs Verse battles but i think honest regarding the Powertiers and the pecking order in lotr.
I mean it makes no sense to assume People like Fingolfin would lose vs Rock lee if Balrogs have Mountain Level durability from calcs.

As long as this is Lotr intern i wouldn't bring that stuff up it's plain unfair.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 8, 2012)

he's not honest at all if he's inconsistent and dishonest in verses then it's across the board

a liar is a liar and makes no distinction


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

I think the Question is where the Burden of Proof lies. The quotes are ambigous and arednads intrepretation is contested.

Overall he assumes Fodder Balroggs have a higher Tier and hence Morgoth Tier is lower? 

Additional he Trys to hype Sauron via those fodder Balroggs if they are stronger Galdalf/Grey is and hence Sauron.  (Makes no sense that was pointed out alrdy by Tranquil)
Hence the Burden of Proof is with him. We have no Proof that the Powerlevel of Fodder Balrogs is something like 1:3. Going by everything else that assumption gets more and more ridiculous and i haven't read anything besides the Main Story.

His asumptions have no foundation other than shaky interpretation.
I mean from what i know and learned in this Thread his Position and chance to push his point through are slim.

As Fingolfins Power is mostly influenced by Morgoth and i see no reason to assume it's as low as arednad says from the proofs provided.

Fingolf wins this handily.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Nov 8, 2012)

I think people are just making lotr threads for the lulz now.


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

mcdave said:


> I think the Question is where the Burden of Proof lies. The quotes are ambigous and arednads intrepretation is contested.
> 
> Overall he assumes Fodder Balroggs have a higher Tier and hence Morgoth Tier is lower?
> 
> ...


Simply listen to Christopher Tolkien discuss his father's work.
easily repels that version of Primus and blasts him with Force Lightning
The problem with Immortal is he actually does not really know very much about Tolkien's work at all. He jumps and chooses what he likes when it suits him.

Tolkien was constantly changing and altering the story. There are many versions of the Silmarillion. 

I try and be as faithful to his latest vision as possible. I don't distort things by quoting Turin coming back to kill Morgoth, because that was dismissed. I don't distort things by bring up the quotes where Turin's family are described as stronger than the Noldor, because that was dropped.

I have too much respect for Tokien's work to distort it make one character seem stronger than another. For instance could quite easily provide you the quotes where Ecthelion has taken down 5 Balrogs in one battle and then use it to claim he is much greater than Gandalf, but that would be false representation. Since I know the Balrog Gandalf fought was not the same kind of creature Tuor, Ecthelion were taking down 5 at a time.

EDIT
This is an example of mixing and matching Tolkiens different thoughts on the Silmarillion. Here is an example of a false argument.
Tuor, Turin's cousin must be stronger than Gandalf. Gandalf faced just one Balrog and he died. Yet look at Tuor he was killing 5 Balrogs in one battle. Just look at the text.

*"...and by reason of the great doughtiness of those two lords they came even unto the Balrogs. Of those demons of power Ecthelion slew three, for the brightness of his sword cleft the iron of them and did hurt to their fire, and they writhed; yet of the leap of that axe Dramborleg that was swung by the hand of Tuor were they still more afraid, for it sang like the rush of eagle's wings in the air and took death as it fell, and five of them went down before it."*

Yet it is a foolish argument any Tolkien fan knows a Balrog when Tolkien wrote LOTR was is massively superior to a Balrog when the wrote the Book of Lost Tales.


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

Honestly in the Ungoliath feat i assume that the Lotr Spiders hate fire and Light and burning a gynormic Web would create both.

You can't Proof Balrogs> Ungoliath with that. (It wasn't a straightforward combat anyway) I share your oppinion that Morgoth was probably not involved but that is no proof for  Balrogs> Ungoliath.



> Yet it is a foolish argument any Tolkien fan knows a Balrog when Tolkien wrote LOTR was is massively superior to a Balrog when the wrote the Book of Lost Tales.


Call it outlier then


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 8, 2012)

arednad said:


> Simply listen to Christopher Tolkien discuss his father's work.
> easily repels that version of Primus and blasts him with Force Lightning
> The problem with Immortal is he actually does not really know very much about Tolkien's work at all. He jumps and chooses what he likes when it suits him.
> .



The problem with calling me ignorant is this: you have shown inferior knowledge, you have shown that you are willing to lie to defend you're retarded assertion of Naruto Genin being superior to first age Noldor..threads you post on get closed..you've been discredited people want you banned..and on top of all that you have used fan fiction to supplement your arguments

you don't have credibility meanwhile I've earned mine and every time we clash the thread ends with you running..it getting locked or you being made fun of by more than just me

go back to the library hide with your dark master and wank Uchihas and make up bullshit to your hearts content but stay out of here

edit- powerscaling like that in the tolkienverse is hard but if you guys really want one I'll make one on the wiki and link it in my sig


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

Watchdog your Bitereflex is unecessary just try to talk more with each other.  If your oppinion isn't contested debates are no fun just consider that too.
He called you ignorant you him moron idiot liar troll and more.

EDIT: A Tierlist in the Meta is good Digimon and whatever else are there too. Lotr Tierlist can go there too its maybe unecessary but it's Fun eitherway.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 8, 2012)

mcdave said:


> Watchdog your Bitereflex is unecessary just try to talk more with each other.  If your oppinion isn't contested debates are no fun just consider that too.
> He called you ignorant you him moron idiot liar troll and more.



I have no issue with my opinion being contested I have a problem with someone who's nothing but a lackey for the worse section on this site....and a chronie for the worse staffers to ever come in here...deliberately inflating the power levels of a terrible series while weakening a quality one

he's a symptom of the fucking cancer that's infesting the OBD and needs to be nuked

he's not trying to honestly disagree with me like you were he's trying to fuck this place up and is acting with a dishonest agenda


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

Just bring more normal OBD into Lotr and things will work out i think. The Balrog speed calc for example changes a lot without it Nardo would have a major Speed advantage. 
It's not important how powerfull you feel a character should be but what you can proof i mean the Aliens in Gantz at the End implied to be vastly powerfull but unquantifiable. Galadriels chaos repellant nearly unquantifiable. (her Telephatics vastly powerfull on the otherhand her Body slightly superhuman at least, Dol Guldurs Physical Destruction not impressive compared to her Mindfuckery)



> Gurthang kills whatever it bites. If the sword cuts you it WILL kill you


For Example classic No Limit fallacy. 


> as it fell, and five of them went down before it


Outlier

If things are not quantifiable or the result of a combat is ambigous leave it that way.



> *for though his might was greatest of all things in this world*, alone of the Valar he knew fear


Hyperbole i don't think so. That was the most impressive thing. I mean it excluded everything otherworldy but thats it and very close to the Feat in question.
That was what convinced me.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 8, 2012)

I wasn't even going to touch the Gurthang thing

as for Morgoth that's not hyperbole or at the very least when he was Melkor that certainly wasn't - he was pretty much the most powerful Valar minus Tulkas..

as for Galadriel if she's a fortress buster she's a class 20/30 that's not as impressive as other characters of course that'd put her physical strength on par with Spiderman and Hiko - her esoteric powers make her worse

the other top tier Elves should be fairly higher


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## Bender (Nov 8, 2012)

@JetwaterLuffy12

LOTR is just all that epic sir.



On another note:

Fingolfin held his own against Morgoth who is like Satan. Also impact on the ground from Morgoth's hammer created ridiculously big craters. Turin combatted Glaurung who is sort of like a leader of the fodder part of Morgoth's army. In addition Fingolfin is an elf and elves had a greater degree of strength than men did J.R. Tolkien's LOTR world.


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

> physical strength on par with Spiderman and Hiko - her esoteric powers make her worse


I don't think she did anything physical. I mean not like the Ents did.
More like she got there and did her shiny sparkeldy stuff and everything was good for even after. If you can Mindfuck a country that means nothing anyway shes just trice as strong if her Enemy is some Dark Creature or Evil for the entropy repellant :Y


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

mcdave said:


> For Example classic No Limit fallacy.


It's not some magical ability of the sword. It is a prophecy. If the sword cuts you then at some point it will kill you. Maybe not then, but at some point. Turin and Glaurung are examples of this.


> Outlier


It is not an outlier it was retconned. Originally there were hundreds of Balrogs, but they were much weaker. These were the creatures Tuor, Ecthelion were killing lots of. This is why there is a host of Balrogs in some writings. When he wrote LOTR he turned the demon Gandalf faced into a Balrog. It was then in his rewrites he chops down the number of Balrogs. 





> If things are not quantifiable or the result of a combat is ambigous leave it that way.


The feats are very quantifiable, there is pretty much a complete story of the battle and everything that happened. It's a great read, but Tolkien changed it. We have an epic account of these fights.


> Hyperbole i don't think so. That was the most impressive thing. I mean it excluded everything otherworldy but thats it and very close to the Feat in question.
> That was what convinced me.


Morgoth poured his soul into the ENTIRE world/universe. There is no hyperbole here. The good thing about this is he can do things
like make Mountains attack you from a thousand miles away. The bad thing is his is now weaker and can be beaten.


Still the main problem with using the Silmarillion is that it has been rewritten so many times.

Give you a brief example.
1. Galadriel comes over with the Noldor, but fights against Feanor at the kinslaying. She is instrumental in getting the rest of the Noldor across the ice.
2. Galadriel does not rebel with the rest of the Noldor. She had permission from Manwe. She still defends her clan at the kin slaying.
3. Galadriel gets permission from Manwe, but leave directly to Middle Earth when she should clarify the situation after the rebellion of Feanor.

Now, which one do you put forward. 

Or lets look at Turin. 
1. Turin becomes god and helps kill Morgoth
2. Turin remains man and is in the halls of Mandos to kill Morgoth with Beren
3. Turin returns from the destination of men to kill Morgoth
4. Turin returns to kill Ancalagon the Black.

Now here's the problem Christopher Tolkien has. The last word on the subject is no 4. Turin is supposed to return at the War of Wrath to kill Ancalagon. The problem is everything tells us Earendil killed the dragon. Yet Tolkien clearly wanted Turin to have one last heroic act before leaving. There is a constellation in the sky to remind Morgoth of Turin's return. 

All we can do is ignore Turin's supposed return and not give him the feat of killing Morgoth or Ancalagon the Black.


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

> It's not some magical ability of the sword. It is a prophecy. If the sword cuts you then at some point it will kill you. Maybe not then, but at some point. Turin and Glaurung are examples of this.


Then it can kill something as strong as Glaurung/Turin with a Timelaps. Everything stronger NLF.



> Morgoth poured his soul into the ENTIRE world/universe. There is no hyperbole here. The good thing about this is he can do things
> like make Mountains attack you from a thousand miles away. The bad thing is his is now weaker and can be beaten.


Ok that would explain the mightiest Part. His Combat prowness if we take the Reputation out of it? Could he make your Harnish Explode the ground below you or anything then too? I mean everything is everything. I mean to assume he didn't use that hax in close Combat is just meh. Probability Manipulation low reality warping?



> Also impact on the ground from Morgoth's hammer created ridiculously big craters



Taurin has only the Dragon thing. And in Lotr normally .


> combatted Glaurung who is sort of like a leader of the fodder part of Morgoth's army.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 8, 2012)

actually the final say are the in house rules..consistent high end showings and the consistent feats and the like


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 8, 2012)

mcdave said:


> T
> 
> 
> Ok that would explain the mightiest Part. His Combat prowness if we take the Reputation out of it? Could he make your Harnish Explode the ground below you or anything then too? I mean everything is everything. I mean to assume he didn't use that hax in close Combat is just meh.



he might have used hax in battle once long ago but by that point i think too much of him was exhausted into his resources/the world

guy did that on raw strength


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

> he might have used hax in battle once long ago but by that point i think too much of him was exhausted into his resources/the world
> 
> guy did that on raw strength


Sounds legit.

I mean he was serious and feared Fingolfin why not let him drop into a Bottomless Pit instead of fighting mano a mano. 

Was Ungoliath alive at that point i probably think not from my guestimation. Otherwise there would be no point in discussing this.

I mean we know that Morgoth probably couldn't use reality warping/probability manipulation hence he was physical the mightiest?

He lost to Ungoliant. It's a Hyperbole hence he was not the mightiest he lost to Fingolfin too. (Combat wise)

Iam drunk :Y


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 9, 2012)

mcdave said:


> Sounds legit.
> 
> I mean he was serious and feared Fingolfin why not let him drop into a Bottomless Pit instead of fighting mano a mano.



because while he could have done that as Melkor..at that point he was far too degenerated 


mcdave said:


> Was Ungoliath alive at that point i probably think not from my guestimation. Otherwise there would be no point in discussing this.



she ate herself long before Fingolfins last stand


mcdave said:


> I mean we know that Morgoth probably couldn't use reality warping/probability manipulation hence he was physical the mightiest?



As Melkor he was boiling oceans and raising and leveling mountains taking massive forms and such like..he really declined big time

Tulkas was physically the strongest Valar...but Melkor had a little bit of everyone basically making him the most powerful and intelligent


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## mcdave (Nov 9, 2012)

With that established the mightiest (of worldy things) statement had to put Morgot/Fingolfin above Glaurun/Turin combatwise.

As it couldn't refer to some mubo jumbo.



> for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 9, 2012)

> I mean he was serious and feared Fingolfin why not let him drop into a Bottomless Pit instead of fighting mano a mano



How exactly do you think that would look to his men if he did'nt meet Fingolfin's challenge?He was serious and no one would argue he could take him in his prime but he was still strong even post pouring his evil into the world.



> He lost to Ungoliant. It's a Hyperbole hence he was not the mightiest he lost to Fingolfin too. (Combat wise)



Ungoliant amped up on god juice from the Golden and Silver trees which birthed the Sun and Moon, the same Ungoliath whose origins are not known?He lost to Fingolfin?Hear I thought he beat him in direct one on one physical combat after Fingolfin put up a valiant effort(walked away with a limp though).

Now in his prime he was the strongest god not Eru. Stronger than Manwe, Aule and the others.


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## Bender (Nov 9, 2012)

@McDave

Morgoth did not lose to Fingolfin. He didn't have the momentum as much as Fingolfin did in their fight (as he was exhausted from pouring much of his power into corrupting the world). Because of this many of his wounds did not heal from that bout.


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## tashtin (Nov 9, 2012)

Fingolfin absolutely murderstomps turin. Turin has shown nothing that can put him in the same league as the eleven lords let alone fingolfin one of the 3 strongest elves.

Also turin was never prophesied to fight morgoth - he only delivers the final blow; that's after morgoth destroys the sun and the moon, fights with earendil and fionwe, wrestles with tulkas, takes on the hosts of valinor (arguably alone).

If there is any fighting between morgoth and turin it wouldn't be single combat.



Tranquil Fury said:


> Now in his prime he was the strongest god not Eru.



??? Eru is "the one above all" of middle earth, at no point did that change.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 9, 2012)

I meant he was stronger than any God besides Eru i.e he was the second strongest due to being stronger than any Valar or Maiar in his prime, not that he was comparable or above Eru.

Eru>>Him.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 10, 2012)

I'll also add that, Ungoliant is an outlier due to the reasons tranquil said she was roided on god juice and the Balrogs backing him up were enough to flame her off but I don't think that was a case of overpowering it's one thing to claim Balrogs surpassed Morgoth it's another thing entirely to claim they overpowered the light of the trees

like everything said it's suspect

as to the power of Melkor in terms of overall power he was basically second only to Eru though Manwe was said to be the big chief feat wise Melkor has better

never stopped Tulkas from lulstomping him


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## Reddan (Nov 10, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I'll also add that, Ungoliant is an outlier due to the reasons tranquil said she was roided on god juice and the Balrogs backing him up were enough to flame her off but I don't think that was a case of overpowering it's one thing to claim Balrogs surpassed Morgoth it's another thing entirely to claim they overpowered the light of the trees
> 
> like everything said it's suspect
> 
> ...



You still don't seem to understand just because you are more powerful means you will win in a fight. 

Nor was Manwe ever more powerful than Melkor. He was just the leader, because he understood Eru better and was a better man.

Second Tulkas is going to beat everyone in a fight except Eru, but he is one of the weaker Valar. 

Feanor is notably more powerful than Fingolfin, but in a fight he is not going to win. In fact I think a reasonable argument can be made that even Maedhros would beat his father in a fight.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 10, 2012)

arednad said:


> You still don't seem to understand just because you are more powerful means you will win in a fight. ]



oi vey ardy




arednad said:


> Nor was Manwe ever more powerful than Melkor. He was just the leader, because he understood Eru better and was a better man.



which is why I said "feat wise Melkor shits on him" herp derp



arednad said:


> Second Tulkas is going to beat everyone in a fight except Eru, but he is one of the weaker Valar.



of course he's the fighting god



arednad said:


> is notably more powerful than Fingolfin, but in a fight he is not going to win. In fact I think a reasonable argument can be made that even Maedhros would beat his father in a fight.



I can see Fingy doing it after a very brutal struggle

meadhros?  what the heck? no


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## Reddan (Nov 10, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> oi vey ardy


What?


> which is why I said "feat wise Melkor shits on him" herp derp


We are told several times that Melkor was the mightiest thing created. 


> of course he's the fighting god


Exactly, but when it comes to power he is one of the weakest Valar. Melkor, Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aule are all more powerful.


> I can see Fingy doing it after a very brutal struggle
> meadhros?  what the heck? no


What do you mean Maedhros what the heck? Maedhros was one of the best fighters the elves ever had. Even after losing his dominant hand he learned to user the other better.


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## Luna (Nov 10, 2012)

Yeah, Fingolfin most likely takes this. Turin could maybe put up a good fight, but he's not going to be beating Fingolfin anytime soon.


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