# Jiraiya in Itachi's situation vs. Kirin



## Nikushimi (Mar 18, 2013)

Just like in the manga, basically. Jiraiya is heavily wounded and fatigued just like Itachi was. Kirin is already prepped and J-man has no prior knowledge of it. He clears this test if he can survive Kirin, somehow, without being forced off the battlefield (e.g., reverse summoning).

*Scenario 1:* Base Jiraiya
*Scenario 2:* Sage Jiraiya


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## Joakim3 (Mar 18, 2013)

He dies plain and simple, Even if we assume he OoC summons Gamaken to shield the blow with his shield, chances are it still kills him as _Kirin_ vaporized a roughly 1mile tall mountain/hill


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## Jad (Mar 18, 2013)

What's the point of this thread. You might as well say a bullet is a millimeter away from your head, can you dodge it? You setup an environment were Jiriya gets beaten 10/10.

I reckon you should have made it that Jiraiya has to stop Sasuke from prepping Kirin, rather pretty much being IN Kirin.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 18, 2013)

Why don't we just make this an, "Itachi without Susano" thread?


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## Nikushimi (Mar 18, 2013)

Jad said:


> What's the point of this thread. You might as well say a bullet is a millimeter away from your head, can you dodge it? You setup an environment were Jiriya gets beaten 10/10.
> 
> I reckon you should have made it that Jiraiya has to stop Sasuke from prepping Kirin, rather pretty much being IN Kirin.



Eh, Itachi didn't have that luxury. Assuming Sasuke is able to set Kirin up without the aide of Amaterasu, which doesn't seem unreasonable, and assuming Jiraiya is in the same condition as Itachi was by that point, I don't think he would be able to stop it even if that option was on the table here.

Unless you mean not allowing Sasuke to set it up at all, which would just be "Jiraiya vs. Hebi Sasuke" and is a completely different argument than the one I wanted to address with this thread.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Why don't we just make this an, "Itachi without Susano" thread?



Because Itachi wasn't restricted from using Susano'o in the manga, and this is essentially supposed to be the situation he was in (hence the title). Jiraiya's not restricted at all, so this is a test to see if he can handle the same challenge with his moveset/abilities.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 18, 2013)

> Because Itachi wasn't restricted from using Susano'o in the manga, and this is essentially supposed to be the situation he was in (hence the title). Jiraiya's not restricted at all, so this is a test to see if he can handle the same challenge with his moveset/abilities.



Then in fairness, does Sasuke still monologue about how Jiraiya is going to be blown from the earth with a jutsu that surpasses Ametersu with his arm in the air for five minutes?

There are barely a few jutsu one could use to defend themselves from an falling Kirin in the manga.  Kamui hiding, Izanagi, the obvious completed Susano...and maybe an ungodly perfectly timed Shinra Tensei.  Almost all of those require you to win some sort of genetic lottery to have that ability, rather than reflect the skills of user.  The sure thing he does have, a hasty reverse summon, you restricted.  What is the logic behind that, Itachi didn't leave the battlefield?  It's certainly not because Itachi had that artificially restricted during the fight.



Anyhow, the shadow meld skill is an iffy option.  I'm not sure what happens to the Jiraiya hiding in a shadow when the thing casting the shadow is blown up.  Probably get blown up, but I don't know.  It's a shadow.  If he's close enough, he could get into Sasuke's shadow, and then he'd be fine for sure, or if he got into the shadow of something near Sasuke.  Otherwise, Jiraiya could swamp Sasuke to interrupt the jutsu, which would force Sasuke to cancel his attack to free himself.  (Which he probably can't do with no chakra left, if it's as it was in the manga)  I don't doubt Jiraiya's ability to do that, because wounded tired poisoned Shoten Jiraiya could cast swamps that sunk snakes, so even if he managed a person sized one under Sasuke he'd be golden.  And it only takes one hand seal.  In sage mode the frogs could water laser Sasuke.  

He could also summon Gamabunta to get blown up for him, taking the Sasuke route to surviving big bangs, I guess.  In a more fanfiction-y option, he could sink himself down the mountain.  ...and then ideally not drown from his own jutsu.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 18, 2013)

Aside from Yomi Numa, Jiraiya has no chance at surviving.

Itachi wasn't heavily wounded, his arm was burned, and he overworked his aids-ridden joke of a body.


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## Empathy (Mar 18, 2013)

If you concede Jiraiya can survive through the use of _gyaku kuchiyose_ (which I'm personally iffy about), forbiding it is definitely not, "_a test to see if he can handle the same challenge with his moveset/abilities_." It's a reflection of what he was able to do in the manga, even if it's what you might call running away — would still be a perfectly viable option. You might as well ask Itachi to stop _Kirin_ without _Susanoo_ (take away the tools to accomplish the task). PoW is indubitably correct in saying this more akin to a lottery — hoping you just might coincidentally have the right tools to survive rather than an actual reflection of aptitude.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 18, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Then in fairness, does Sasuke still monologue about how Jiraiya is going to be blown from the earth with a jutsu that surpasses Ametersu with his arm in the air for five minutes?



Sasuke gives the same spiel he did in the manga before launching Kirin.



> There are barely a few jutsu one could use to defend themselves from an falling Kirin in the manga.  Kamui hiding, Izanagi, the obvious completed Susano...and maybe an ungodly perfectly timed Shinra Tensei.  Almost all of those require you to win some sort of genetic lottery to have that ability, rather than reflect the skills of user.  The sure thing he does have, a hasty reverse summon, you restricted.  What is the logic behind that, Itachi didn't leave the battlefield?  It's certainly not because Itachi had that artificially restricted during the fight.



Jiraiya has that "artificially restricted" here, too. Same situation; he has to deal with the Jutsu without simply exiting the battlefield (which would be a ring-out, anyway).



> Anyhow, the shadow meld skill is an iffy option.  I'm not sure what happens to the Jiraiya hiding in a shadow when the thing casting the shadow is blown up.  Probably get blown up, but I don't know.  It's a shadow.  If he's close enough, he could get into Sasuke's shadow, and then he'd be fine for sure, or if he got into the shadow of something near Sasuke.



The databook entry says Jiraiya compresses his body to a paper-thin width while exhaling his breath and then reforms himself to his natural volume by inhaling air again.

Which sounds like something out of a Tom & Jerry cartoon, but there you have it. It shouldn't provide any defense against Kirin.



> Otherwise, Jiraiya could swamp Sasuke to interrupt the jutsu, which would force Sasuke to cancel his attack to free himself.  (Which he probably can't do with no chakra left, if it's as it was in the manga)  I don't doubt Jiraiya's ability to do that, because wounded tired poisoned Shoten Jiraiya could cast swamps that sunk snakes, so even if he managed a person sized one under Sasuke he'd be golden.  And it only takes one hand seal.  In sage mode the frogs could water laser Sasuke.



The thing is, with no knowledge of Kirin, J-man won't be able to do any of this. He'll be gawking at the sky wondering what the fuck is about to happen, like Itachi was.

Yomi Numa wouldn't stop Sasuke from casting Kirin, anyway.



> He could also summon Gamabunta to get blown up for him, taking the Sasuke route to surviving big bangs, I guess.  In a more fanfiction-y option, he could sink himself down the mountain.  ...and then ideally not drown from his own jutsu.



Except Kirin obliterated that entire mountain, and there's still the issue of Jiraiya being able to react with appropriate promptness in the face of such an intimidating Jutsu without prior knowledge of what it can actually do.



DaVizWiz said:


> Itachi wasn't heavily wounded, his arm was burned, and he overworked his aids-ridden joke of a body.



Itachi had a gaping hole in his leg from the trap shuriken, was bleeding out of his right eye after two shots of Amaterasu, and those burns on his arm looked pretty serious. I would classify that as "heavily wounded."



Empathy said:


> If you concede Jiraiya can survive through the use of _gyaku kuchiyose_ (which I'm personally iffy about), forbiding it is definitely not, "_a test to see if he can handle the same challenge with his moveset/abilities_." It's a reflection of what he was able to do in the manga, even if it's what you might call running away ? would still be a perfectly viable option. You might as well ask Itachi to stop _Kirin_ without _Susanoo_ (take away the tools to accomplish the task). PoW is indubitably correct in saying this more akin to a lottery ? hoping you just might coincidentally have the right tools to survive rather than an actual reflection of aptitude.



Itachi should be capable of reverse summoning as well, given that he apparently possesses a summoning contract.

However, doing so would not allow him to continue fighting Sasuke. And I don't necessarily concede that it would work, either; it just wasn't an issue I felt like debating. Jiraiya is supposed to be in the same situation as Itachi, here; running away isn't an option.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 18, 2013)

In any case, I don't have to justify the setup of this match to anyone.

It is what it is. Don't like it? Make your own thread.


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## Dark Red Z (Mar 18, 2013)

Once upon a time, I made a thread asking if Raikage, the fastest man currently alive, could blitz past Kirin.

The unanymous consensus was he got crisped utterly.

What hope does Jiraiya have?


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## Stermor (Mar 18, 2013)

seriously he should do what every proper shinobi should do when sasuke is prepping kirin.. run at sasuke and attack him.. all shinobi should be taking the advantage when there opponents focus is elsewhere.. 

itachi allowed sasuke to fire kirin.. if itachi wanted sasuke would never have gotten kirin off because he would have a kunai in his head.. or fireball fired at him or whatever.. 

you shouldn't defend against kirin you just kill sasuke before he can finish the monoloque thingie.. 

anyway jiriaya fry's sasuke before he can use kirin is my answer.. also if jiriaya attacks sasuke cannot really fire kirin since he will die himself aswell..



Dark Red Z said:


> Once upon a time, I made a thread asking if Raikage, the fastest man currently alive, could blitz past Kirin.
> 
> The unanymous consensus was he got crisped utterly.
> 
> What hope does Jiraiya have?



because it is lighting.. if activated noone can dogde it.. but shit load of people can move faster then sasuke and prepare for when it hits

btw jiriaya has feats of willing himself back from the dead, and fighting pain with a arm ripped off. he will not allow wounds to matter in this fight.. not seeing how he would have gotten them either against sasuke but oh well


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## Mithos (Mar 18, 2013)

I suppose Jiraiya could sink himself with Yomi Numa? Maybe? I don't know.


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## Bonly (Mar 18, 2013)

With Kirin already prep Jiraiya's dying as he isn't fast enough to dodge it nor has a jutsu that he can pull off to say him in time, assuming by "already prep" you mean that Kirin at this point. 

If by "already prep" you mean that its at this point and Sasuke has to get out of the blast area then Jiraiya could always use Doton: Yomi Numa to keep Sasuke still and seeing as how Sasuke was out of chakra, he won't be able to use Kirin without killing himself thus Jiraiya is safe. Assuming Jiraiya goes and use Doton: Yomi Numa that is.



Jad said:


> What's the point of this thread.* You might as well say a bullet is a millimeter away from your head, can you dodge it?* You setup an environment were Jiriya gets beaten 10/10.
> 
> I reckon you should have made it that Jiraiya has to stop Sasuke from prepping Kirin, rather pretty much being IN Kirin.



Yes I can, the yellow sun has allowed me move fast enough to dodge the bullet even though I can tank it like a boss . Well unless there's kryptonite around, then im fucked


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## crisler (Mar 18, 2013)

jiraiya dies.

this is the part where jiriaya is weak. no good defence, or the speed to dodge things.

i'm rather curious as to whether nagato would be able to absorb or repel kirin, assuming he gets the right timing


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## Turrin (Mar 18, 2013)

Two things should be noted

First off w/o Itachi's Amaterasu Sasuke's Kirin would be weaker. 
Second Zetsu and Sasuke both survived the blast despite being very close to where the lighting "hit" Itachi.
Third if this is really what Itachi faced than Sasuke will go into a speech about the technique before utilizing it

This shows that as long as your not the one struck directly by the technique you have a good chance of surviving, especially against the weaker non-Amaterasu charged Kirin and that Sasuke's speech gives people time to react.

Base Jiraiya should be able to use KB during Sasuke's speech and it would be silly for him not to considering the content of Sasuke's speech (I.E. talk of an unavoidable jutsu). This would put it up to luck whether Sasuke selects the right J-man to launch Kirin against. Usually in the manga when someone tries to select the real one instead of a clone, they end up messing it up. So while this isn't quite as good of a defense as Susano'o, it still should allow Base J-man to survive 50% of the time if he creates 1 Clone, 75% of the Time if he creates 2 Clones, etc... 

Now if J-man is in SM, than Ma/Pa can simply use Frog Call to throw off Sasuke's Aim. Not only would they have time to do that with Sasuke's speech, but speed of sound is > speed of lighting anyway. So SM J-man has an even better chance of survival.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 18, 2013)

Base dies. Sage Mode may be able to evade or tank it. This is assuming Jiraiya's speed and ability with natural energy is close to a perfect Sage.


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## Trojan (Mar 18, 2013)

Turrin said:


> . Not only would they have time to do that with Sasuke's speech, but *speed of sound is > speed of lighting anyway.* So SM J-man has an even better chance of survival.



Really? 

****
Jman most likely will die.


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## Jad (Mar 18, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Base dies. Sage Mode may be able to evade or tank it. This is assuming Jiraiya's speed and ability with natural energy is close to a perfect Sage.



Sage mode tank it? I doubt it.

1. The frogs on his shoulders would fry, thus Sage mode disappears and he feels the affects in base.

2. Whatever Asura path did to Sage Mode Jiraiya that blew off his arm would still pale in-comparison to Kirin.


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## Stermor (Mar 18, 2013)

tanking is not an option.. attack or creating clones is a very viable strategy..

remember itachi just waited for the attack to hit.. he could have easily just moved to sasuke and kirin would never have been an option..


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## Dr. White (Mar 18, 2013)

Turrin said:


> *but speed of sound is > speed of lighting anyway.*
> What? you realize that you see a lightning blot finish its discharge before you hear the thunder right? Which is just sound being made from the channeling of the lightning being so fast.
> 
> J-Man dies here pretty much


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 18, 2013)

> Itachi had a gaping hole in his leg from the trap shuriken, was bleeding out of his right eye after two shots of Amaterasu, and those burns on his arm looked pretty serious. I would classify that as "heavily wounded."


Itachi was shunshining- what trap shuriken are you talking about?

Every MS user bleeds out of their eye after use. 

His burns were minor- and hit his arm only. 

"Severely wounded" is generally in the range of crippled limbs, loss of limb entirely, full bodily-burned, or having vitals penetrated. Itachi was not in this condition, not even close.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 18, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Two things should be noted
> 
> First off w/o Itachi's Amaterasu Sasuke's Kirin would be weaker.



Where the HELL did you pull this from?



> Second Zetsu and Sasuke both survived the blast despite being very close to where the lighting "hit" Itachi.
> Third if this is really what Itachi faced than Sasuke will go into a speech about the technique before utilizing it
> 
> This shows that as long as your not the one struck directly by the technique you have a good chance of surviving, especially against the weaker non-Amaterasu charged Kirin and that Sasuke's speech gives people time to react.
> ...



This didn't work for Itachi. Why would it work for J-man?



> Now if J-man is in SM, than Ma/Pa can simply use Frog Call to throw off Sasuke's Aim. Not only would they have time to do that with Sasuke's speech, but *speed of sound is > speed of lighting* anyway. So SM J-man has an even better chance of survival.





Jesus, Turrin.

-snip-

EDIT: I have busted SuperSaiyaMan12's balls for less than this. And that's both amazing and horrifying to me, as I had thought you were one of the smarter posters around here prior to this excrutiating verbal slip.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Base dies. Sage Mode may be able to evade or tank it. This is assuming Jiraiya's speed and ability with natural energy is close to a perfect Sage.



No way in hell is Jiraiya "tanking" Kirin. He isn't surviving it at all if he gets hit- that much is certain.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 18, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Itachi was shunshining- what trap shuriken are you talking about?



The one that shot a six-inch slab of metal into his thigh.



> Every MS user bleeds out of their eye after use.



And that somehow makes it any less damaging because...?



> His burns were minor- and hit his arm only.



I'm no expert on burns, but those look to me like they were pretty fucking severe to distort the coloration of his arm that much.

I would imagine they were quite painful.



> "Severely wounded" is generally in the range of crippled limbs, loss of limb entirely, full bodily-burned, or having vitals penetrated. Itachi was not in this condition, not even close.



He took a stab wound, had a limb severely burned, and was bleeding out of his eye. I would classify that as "severely wounded."

Semantics aside, Jiraiya's in equally-shitty condition here, regardless of which words you decide you want to use to describe it.


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## Dr. White (Mar 18, 2013)

Lol I love Itachi fans are single out as fan boy wankers, and illogical trolls, yet we are the one's correct on matters on panel reality, and applied science to the manga. It's really something.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 18, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Lol I love Itachi fans are single out as fan boy wankers, and illogical trolls, yet we are the one's correct on matters on panel reality, and applied science to the manga. It's really something.



At one time, men who claimed the world was round were threatened and censured by their contemporaries. 

We are simply ahead of our time. But future generations will look back on our work and vindicate us!


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## Vice (Mar 18, 2013)

Yomi Numa on Sasuke as he gives his 20-minute spiel, both scenarios.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 18, 2013)

Vice said:


> Yomi Numa on Sasuke as he gives his 20-minute spiel, both scenarios.



Sasuke gets his feet wet, Jiraiya gets struck by a mountain-shattering bolt of lightning.

That's still a win for Sasuke.


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## Vice (Mar 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke gets his feet wet, Jiraiya gets struck by a mountain-shattering bolt of lightning.
> 
> That's still a win for Sasuke.



Jiraiya at below half capacity was able to conjure up a swamp strong enough to keep a giant snake summon down. Don't think he'll have any problems with a 90 pound boy.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 18, 2013)

Vice said:


> Jiraiya at below half capacity was able to conjure up a swamp strong enough to keep a giant snake summon down. Don't think he'll have any problems with a 90 pound boy.



Which is not going to stop Sasuke from swinging his arm down to guide Kirin, which he can do a lot faster than gravity can accelerate him into the swamp in free-fall.


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## Vice (Mar 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Which is not going to stop Sasuke from swinging his arm down to guide Kirin, which he can do a lot faster than gravity can accelerate him into the swamp in free-fall.



Fine. Frog Song first, then Yumi Noma.


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## Stermor (Mar 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> This didn't work for Itachi. Why would it work for J-man?



this was not used.. itachi just waited and did nothing during the time sasuke prepped kirin because he knew he could survive and it would allow orochimaru to come out.. he did not even try to use any attack during sasuke super jutsu prep time.. hell he didn't even raise his hand.. 

it is extremly unlikely that itachi couldn't stop kirin if he didn't want it.. even if only because sasuke would be dead already  

anyway strategy's not used by itachi(which he is capable off) should not be discounted because he let himself get hit..

also jiriaya also kinda proved during the pain fight he was capable of movement with all his vitals pierces.. the damage itachi sustained are not going to stop jiriaya doing anything.. 

also the attack is not just sasuke guiding the attack down.. sasuke first has to gain control.. and well its kinda hard to control it while he's standing on a swamp.. or getting roasted.. or getting a wind bullet through his head.. or hit by 100's of hairs.. or getting ripped apart by a tonque.. 

anyway best strategy against kirin is just attack.. and any shinobi should be doing it. considering attacking an enemy when you see an opening is really basic..


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## Nikushimi (Mar 18, 2013)

Vice said:


> Fine. Frog Song first, then Yumi Noma.



Gamarinshou requires more prep than even Sasuke's little soliloquy will allow.

Unless you mean Kawazu Naki, which has not shown the range to affect anything at this distance.

Remember, Jiraiya doesn't know about the Jutsu, either. Trying to preempt it won't be the first thing on his mind.



Stermor said:


> this was not used.. itachi just waited and did nothing during the time sasuke prepped kirin because he knew he could survive and it would allow orochimaru to come out.. he did not even try to use any attack during sasuke super jutsu prep time.. hell he didn't even raise his hand..
> 
> it is extremly unlikely that itachi couldn't stop kirin if he didn't want it.. even if only because sasuke would be dead already
> 
> anyway strategy's not used by itachi(which he is capable off) should not be discounted because he let himself get hit..



Itachi had no knowledge of the Jutsu and was both injured and exhausted at that point... I think anyone in his shoes would've been stupefied the same way.


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## PDQ (Mar 18, 2013)

Whatever happened to Gamaguchi Shibari?  Seems sturdy enough, doesn't seem to take any significant amount of chakra, it's a summon so it's practically instant.  Combined with Hari Jizō, it should be enough.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 18, 2013)

> The one that shot a six-inch slab of metal into his thigh.


 wut



> I'm no expert on burns, but those look to me like they were pretty fucking severe to distort the coloration of his arm that much.


Distort the coloration? Oh, you mean in the white and blank pencil drawn manga?

A charred arm isn't severely wounded in this verse. No arm is moderately wounded- as Jiraiya has shown. 



> He took a stab wound, had a limb severely burned, and was bleeding out of his eye. I would classify that as "severely wounded."


He was not stabbed, his arm was barely tagged with a katon, and his eye bleeding is a condition of MS.



> Semantics aside, Jiraiya's in equally-shitty condition here, regardless of which words you decide you want to use to describe it.


A bleeding eye and burned arm isn't shitty condition. 

That's near 100% for Jiraiya.


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## Stermor (Mar 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Gamarinshou requires more prep than even Sasuke's little soliloquy will allow.
> 
> Unless you mean Kawazu Naki, which has not shown the range to affect anything at this distance.
> 
> ...



actually pre empting is the first thing you'll do.. especially when fighting a weaker opponent.. you finish them off before they get to pull out something that can hurt.. it is basic logic.. 

itachi had no knowlegde but he had the susanoo with mirror he could be pretty sure he could survive.. and ye he was exhausted. but he wasn't fighting to kill he was fighting to exhaust sasuke.. which he did by allowing kirin.. 

and no his injury's at most made him less effective.. he was neither brain damaged nor hurt enough that he couldn't preform basic functions.. anyway since jiriaya been through worse the injury and exhaustion are not really relevant..


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## PopoTime (Mar 18, 2013)

If Sasuke has to finish his speech before firing Kirin (which is the only way J-man is surviving this tbh)



SM Jiraiya would just shinshin up to Sasuke and use


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## Mr.Blonde (Mar 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Where the HELL did you pull this from?


Link removed

You drone on so much about Itachi one would think you actually pay attention to the chapters involving him.



Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke gets his feet wet, Jiraiya gets struck by a mountain-shattering bolt of lightning.
> 
> That's still a win for Sasuke.


Typical Mikoo skullduggery. Sasuke gets more than "his feet wet". He gets dead. So no, it's not a win. It's mutual death, at best. Because if Jiraiya makes the swamp big enough, like the one used against Oro for instance, Sasuke will sink before he has time to finish his chest-thumping and bring down his arm.

Regardless, that's not even important, because Yomi Numa is not Jiraiya's best choice in this instance. Sage Jiraiya, or specifically Ni Dai Sennin can slice and dice Sasuke with their tongue jutsu. As for base Jiraiya, Ranjishigami can immobilize Sasuke before he brings down his arm.


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## Krippy (Mar 18, 2013)

Jiraiya gets absolutely destroyed with the wave or his arm in both scenarios

I'm sorry but what was the point of this?

theres only a handful of people who can survive Kirin

Minato, BM Nardo, Obito, Madara, and Itachi are about the only ones who can counter it IIRC


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 18, 2013)

Jiraiya's only chance seems to be summoning Gamabunta and hiding in his anus, hoping the toad will soak the most of the damage.
Although I have my doubts that Gamabunta is as durable as susano'o, so I am going to say that Jiraiya'd either die or end up in a terrible condition and get hospitalized along with him..



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Base dies. Sage Mode may be able to evade or tank it. This is assuming Jiraiya's speed and ability with natural energy is close to a perfect Sage.



Because there is evidence that sages can evade or tank lightning right ?


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## Kai (Mar 18, 2013)

Manda was killed by a portion of Deidara's C0 at the cost of saving Sasuke's life, so I don't see why Gamabunta can't be gravely injured or killed by Kirin at the cost of saving Jiraiya's life.

With restricting reverse summoning, that's not really fair in regards to recreating survival circumstances in the manga. That would have been the surefire way for Jiraiya to escape alive.

Other than Bunta's existence and reverse summoning, none of Jiraiya's ninjutsu can activate as fast as Susano'o or Kirin's speed.


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## Stermor (Mar 18, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Jiraiya gets absolutely destroyed with the wave or his arm in both scenarios
> 
> I'm sorry but what was the point of this?
> 
> ...



sure they can survive it even afetr sasuke has brought his arm down.. there are a huge ammount of people who can stop sasuke before he can get that far.. and most of them sasuke will never ever get into a situation where he can use kirin.. mostly because he would be dead.. or because they use clones.. or the go into cqc and never allow the space in the first place..


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## Shinryu (Mar 18, 2013)

Dies both scenarios since he cant react to lightning


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## Rios (Mar 19, 2013)

If Sasuke's speech is taken into account then how about Jiraiya's dancing? They can make a comedy duo or something, Sasuke telling us a serious sob story while Jiraiya is suggestively dancing in the background.


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## Rainbird (Mar 19, 2013)

Kirin is a little overrated. Its speed is undodgeable, but the part where Sasuke has to form a link of lightning to the clouds and drop his hand is a golden window of opportunity. And sure it destroyed a bigass hill, but that doesn't mean that everything on that hill would be killed by it. The actual "killing area" is limited by the thickness of the actual lightning bolt, a diameter of roughly 50 meters (using the slab of stone that Sasuke stands on, at the left of the lightning strike, for scale), and everything outside the immediate impact would get blown away by the expanding shockwave (like the hill), but that wouldn't be enough to kill a powerful shinobi. Sasuke and Zetsu both survived, easily I might add, despite being within 50 meters of the explosion it caused.



Nikushimi said:


> Itachi had no knowledge of the Jutsu and was both injured and exhausted at that point... I think anyone in his shoes would've been stupefied the same way.




He wasn't so exhausted that he couldn't summon Susano'o to tank a hill-destroying bolt of lightning. Had Itachi used that chakra for something other than a life-draining Mangekyou trump card, he probably could have kept fighting normally for a while. 

Assuming Jiraiya has that much chakra left and isn't dead on his feet, he could probably do better than a 50% chance of survival just by stringing one or two shunshin together so that he's standing at the base of the tower where Sasuke is crouching. Unless Sasuke plans to kill himself to get Jiraiya, that alone would shut Kirin down. They're not exactly far away from each other--in the middle panel, Sasuke is at the top of the slab on the left side of the screen and Itachi is the figure on the right side of the hole in the roof. The distance is about 50 meters:


*Spoiler*: __ 




Assuming Itachi is 2 meters tall, the distance between him and the base of the tower is 24 Itachis, i.e. 48 meters in a straight line.




And the thing is, Jiraiya doesn't even have to cross all 48 meters to throw a wrench in Sasuke's game, because Kirin's "killing diameter" so to speak is roughly 50 meters as well. In other words, if Jiraiya cuts the distance between himself and Sasuke by half, the risk posed to Sasuke himself from Kirin would be unacceptable. At that distance, if he aimed Kirin at Jiraiya, he would find himself caught by the outer edge of the attack.

So, if Jiraiya had as much chakra as Itachi had to summon Susano'o, can he perform a 25-meter shunshin in the time it takes Sasuke to make a grand declaration, raise his arm, and drop it? Yes. Without a doubt, he can. This goes doubly so for Sage Mode Jiraiya. (Technically the distance would be a bit more than a straight 25 meter dash and might require two shunshin, due to the hole, but we all know how fast shunshin is.)

At that point the ball would be in Sasuke's court. Either he kills Jiraiya and probably himself, or he aborts the attack/redirects Kirin elsewhere. Somehow I don't see Sasuke throwing his life away like that for Jiraiya. Were this battle against Itachi I'd say it was 50/50, but with Jiraiya here it's more like 90/10 that he wouldn't.

Turrin's kage bunshin idea on page 1 is viable as well, though depending on Sasuke's state of mind it could be an unnecessary waste of chakra. If Sasuke isn't crazy enough to kill himself to get Jiraiya, Jiraiya should use the shunshin plan. If Sasuke is so crazy that he might consider killing himself to get Jiraiya, Jiraiya should make as many kage bunshin as he can such that they're all capable of basic jounin-level shunshin, and then scatter and pray for the best.

(It  may seem like I'm giving Jiraiya foreknowledge of what Kirin does, especially as regards the kage bunshin plan, but I don't really see it that way. Jiraiya already knows that Sasuke uses lightning, the guy just declared that he would use an undodgeable attack, and a giant thundercloud has appeared out of nowhere above the battlefield while Sasuke has taken the higher ground. IMO it's pretty obvious what's about to go down, and Jiraiya having the decades of combat experience that he does would see it instantly. If he's in Sage Mode, he might even be able to sense the energy buildup in the clouds to further verify his suspicions.)


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## joshhookway (Mar 19, 2013)

Kirin couldn't penetrate susanoo while Tsunade cracked Susanoo. Tsunade's punches are more powerful than Kirin.

This makes sense as Kirin has an AOE and wouldn't focus on a single point like Tsunade's punch. Jiraiya survived Tsunade's punch before and Sage Jiraiya would definitely tank Kirin.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Mar 20, 2013)

Jiraiya uses Food Cart Destroyer to stop Sasuke before he brings Kirin down.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because there is evidence that sages can evade or tank lightning right ?



Kakashi was fast enough to cut a lightning bolt in half with  Raikiri, which is how it got it's name. A Sage is faster than Kakashi.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 20, 2013)

Rainbird said:


> Kirin is a little overrated. Its speed is undodgeable, but the part where Sasuke has to form a link of lightning to the clouds and drop his hand is a golden window of opportunity. And sure it destroyed a bigass hill, but that doesn't mean that everything on that hill would be killed by it. The actual "killing area" is limited by the thickness of the actual lightning bolt, a diameter of roughly 50 meters (using the slab of stone that Sasuke stands on, at the left of the lightning strike, for scale), and everything outside the immediate impact would get blown away by the expanding shockwave (like the hill), but that wouldn't be enough to kill a powerful shinobi. Sasuke and Zetsu both survived, easily I might add, despite being within 50 meters of the explosion it caused.



Sasuke was above the point of contact, and Zetsu...well, it's harder to make a case for him unless you assume that he was grounded due to being...well...the ground.



> He wasn't so exhausted that he couldn't summon Susano'o to tank a hill-destroying bolt of lightning. Had Itachi used that chakra for something other than a life-draining Mangekyou trump card, he probably could have kept fighting normally for a while.



Activating Susano'o doesn't seem to be stressful at all. Maintaining it for a protracted battle is when we see it having negative effects on the user (Sasuke commented on this during the Kage Summit).



> Assuming Jiraiya has that much chakra left and isn't dead on his feet, he could probably do better than a 50% chance of survival just by stringing one or two shunshin together so that he's standing at the base of the tower where Sasuke is crouching. Unless Sasuke plans to kill himself to get Jiraiya, that alone would shut Kirin down.
> 
> They're not exactly far away from each other--in the middle panel, Sasuke is at the top of the slab on the left side of the screen and Itachi is the figure on the right side of the hole in the roof. The distance is about 50 meters:
> 
> ...



Sasuke is just as fast as Jiraiya, if not faster, so I don't see how J-man is crossing such an insane distance before Sasuke puts his hand down.

And basically everything you just said would be applicable to Itachi, who is faster than Jiraiya both in terms of movement speed and in terms of Jutsu execution, yet he could not do any of that.



DaVizWiz said:


> wut



You must've forgotten a good chunk of the Uchiha brothers' fight if you don't remember that part.

Sasuke threw a rigged trap shuriken, Itachi dodged it, and Sasuke pulled a string, releasing a piece of shrapnel into Itachi's leg. Zetsu made a big deal out of the fact that Itachi took a hit, too.



> Distort the coloration? Oh, you mean in the white and blank pencil drawn manga?



Given that we see what are very clearly burns on his arm...yes.



> A charred arm isn't severely wounded in this verse. No arm is moderately wounded- as Jiraiya has shown.



Err, a charred arm is a VERY serious wound.



> He was not stabbed,



Yes he was.



> his arm was barely tagged with a katon,



His arm was completely engulfed in that Katon. That thing was hot enough to change the temperature of the atmosphere and alter the paths of air currents, too.



> and his eye bleeding is a condition of MS.



Which somehow makes it less damaging because...?



> A bleeding eye and burned arm isn't shitty condition.
> 
> That's near 100% for Jiraiya.



A bleeding eye, heavy fatigue, a burned arm, and a stab wound in the leg are nowhere near 100% for anybody not named "Hidan."



Stermor said:


> actually pre empting is the first thing you'll do.. especially when fighting a weaker opponent.. you finish them off before they get to pull out something that can hurt.. it is basic logic..
> 
> itachi had no knowlegde but he had the susanoo with mirror he could be pretty sure he could survive.. and ye he was exhausted. but he wasn't fighting to kill he was fighting to exhaust sasuke.. which he did by allowing kirin..
> 
> and no his injury's at most made him less effective.. he was neither brain damaged nor hurt enough that he couldn't preform basic functions.. anyway since jiriaya been through worse the injury and exhaustion are not really relevant..



Itachi wasn't able to stop Sasuke from firing Kirin off, and Jiraiya is in the exact same situation. That thought shouldn't even cross anybody's mind; Sasuke isn't so slow that Jiraiya can casually pre-empt him from such a distance. Definitely not with him being a Sharingan user who can see that shit coming.



Mr.Blonde said:


> roughly 50 meters as well
> 
> You drone on so much about Itachi one would think you actually pay attention to the chapters involving him.



403 forbidden page error.

The thing is, I did pay attention; I know that fight better than you do, and that's why I'm saying with confidence that Amaterasu's presence (or absence) has no logical influence on the strength of Kirin itself.

All it did was create the conditions for a thunderstorm. If Sasuke could somehow manage that on his own, or if it was assumed that those conditions were already present (as they are here), then why the hell would the power discharged through the lightning be affected in any way?



> Typical Mikoo skullduggery. Sasuke gets more than "his feet wet". He gets dead. So no, it's not a win. It's mutual death, at best. Because if Jiraiya makes the swamp big enough, like the one used against Oro for instance, Sasuke will sink before he has time to finish his chest-thumping and bring down his arm.



That's bullshit; first of all, Yomi Numa doesn't kill unless the target is submerged and actually drowns in it, and second, Sasuke has Raiton to neutralize that shit Jutsu anyway.

Also, Sasuke can damn sure bring his hand down before he free-falls into a swamp.

And if we're gonna play the "chest-thumping" card, I'll remind you that Jiraiya has a more damaging reputation with that sort of thing than he does.



> Regardless, that's not even important, because Yomi Numa is not Jiraiya's best choice in this instance. Sage Jiraiya, or specifically Ni Dai Sennin can slice and dice Sasuke with their tongue jutsu.



Before Sasuke drops his hand? No.



> As for base Jiraiya, Ranjishigami can immobilize Sasuke before he brings down his arm.



Bull. Fucking. Shit.

Sasuke's hand is faster than Jiraiya's hair; he can damn sure cross one meter with the swing of his arm before Jiraiya crosses 50 with anything in his bag of tricks.

I can't believe the insanity coming from some of you folks. It's like you think Sasuke is just going to stand there and let Jiraiya attack him instead of dropping the huge, mountain-shattering lightning bolt he already has prepped. That's *indefensible*. Sasuke isn't any slower than Jiraiya and has Sharingan to read his moves; there is no way J-man can cut him short.


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## Stermor (Mar 20, 2013)

Nikushimi;46658074
Sasuke is just as fast as Jiraiya said:
			
		

> sasuke in base is as fast as jiriaya.. in sage mode jiriaya is significantly faster..
> 
> also itachi didn't even try to stop kirin.. he let it happen not because of injury's or tiredness. but because of his goal for this fight.. in this case that won't happen.. the injury's will not bother jiriaya enough that he won't fight.
> 
> and sasuke is ofcourse perfectly capable of seeing jiriaya running at him.. and perfectly capable of seeing the swamp under his feet.. that is not the point.. the point is sasuke loses focus.. giving a him split second more to dogde kirin.. and well a split second is all jiriaya needs to shunsin away..


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## EnergySage (Mar 20, 2013)

@Nikushimi

Specifically, at what point does this scenario start? Is it starting prep?( a.k.a. pre-speech)

or is it fully prepped (post-speech)?


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## αce (Mar 20, 2013)

This is the battledome. There is not going to be a speech to begin with. Jiraiya has absolutely no protection and has nothing that even suggests he would even be breathing after Kirin initiates contact with him. After that he becomes pudding on the floor.

This is just ridiculous. You aren't running away from lightning, which  is massively hypersonic. And given the range of the and width of the attack in the first place I'm not sure running would be viable even if it was a slow technique.

Jiraiya dies. Anyone saying otherwise is deluding themselves.


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## Fear (Mar 21, 2013)

This thread in essence is practically _non-debatable.

_Honestly now, honestly, who actually thinks Jiraiya stands a chance? Sage Mode doesn't provide enough durability (from what we've seen anyway) for it to possibly withstand an attack at Kirin's calibre. Base Jiraiya, Yomi Numa? _Really?_ _Really? Really battledome?_ 

To be quite frank, only a handful of people in the Manga could of survived that situation, and even then, some are doubtful. They're people that luckily have an absolute defense or even a defense (at the least) to defend themselves such as; Madara (Susano of course) Obito & Minato (S/T), _maybe _Gaara and a few others with quite formidable defense mechanisms.

I'm not saying Jiraiya can't beat an Hebi Sasuke, he probably could, but in that situation given those circumstances, he doesn't have a chance.


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## Turrin (Mar 21, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Where the HELL did you pull this from?


From the fact that Zetsu said Sasuke was making use of the heat from Itachi's Amaterasu.



> This didn't work for Itachi. Why would it work for J-man?


When did Itachi attempt to use KB to evade Kirin. 



> Jesus, Turrin.
> 
> I'm really sorry I have to put it so bluntly, but that is the dumbest thing I have seen anybody post on NF in years.


I admit I was wrong about sound traveling faster than lighting, that was a total brain fart on my part. But it makes no difference here due to Sasuke's lengthy speech before he even directs the bolt of lighting with his hand. So the Toads have enough time to pull out Frog Call.

As for this being the dumbest thing you've read on these forums, I'll believe that the moment you say you have never read many of your own posts about Itachi. Mr. Itachi can solo all 9 Bijuu at once.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 21, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Kakashi was fast enough to cut a lightning bolt in half with  Raikiri, which is how it got it's name. A Sage is faster than Kakashi.



We didn't see it happen. So we have no clue how it happened.

Probably Kakashi  raised his raikiri arm up and lightning came down on him, and raikiri pierced lightning or some other bs.


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## iJutsu (Mar 21, 2013)

We know Jiraiya can summon swords. He used a couple to impale Pain. Couldn't he summon a bunch of them redirect the lightning away from him? His needle like hair could also offer some protection. Also, he would be able to sense Sasuke's movements since he would be in the range of his barrier.

Heck, he could just shoot some quick needles at Sasuke while he's yapping about it.

At the very least, he could spit a stream of oil to Sasuke, stopping him from actually continuing with the attack. I doubt Sasuke wants to get roasted.


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## Bkprince33 (Mar 21, 2013)

Turrin said:


> From the fact that Zetsu said Sasuke was making use of the heat from Itachi's Amaterasu.
> 
> 
> When did Itachi attempt to use KB to evade Kirin.
> ...



Characters who know each other tend to have speeches, and the other tends to listen, for example jiraiya listen to pains whole speech and oro before attacking them,


 of course sasuke would make a speech this is the man he wanted to kill ever since he was a child this doesn't mean he will make that same speech against jiraiya.


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## Turrin (Mar 21, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Characters who know each other tend to have speeches, and the other tends to listen, for example jiraiya listen to pains whole speech and oro before attacking them,
> 
> 
> of course sasuke would make a speech this is the man he wanted to kill ever since he was a child this doesn't mean he will make that same speech against jiraiya.



This is Jiriaya in Itachi's situation so everything should be the same with the only alerted variable being what Jiraiya does vs Itachi.


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## Bkprince33 (Mar 21, 2013)

Turrin said:


> This is Jiriaya in Itachi's situation so everything should be the same with the only alerted variable being what Jiraiya does vs Itachi.



So if thats the case jiraiya will have to listen to sasukes speech as well and have the same exact time itachi had to react, if where to put them in the same exact position, and if that's the case jiraiya dies horribly


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## Veja24 (Mar 21, 2013)

Becomes reduced to glowing cinders.


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## Mr.Blonde (Mar 21, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> 403 forbidden page error.
> 
> The thing is, I did pay attention; I know that fight better than you do, and that's why I'm saying with confidence that Amaterasu's presence (or absence) has no logical influence on the strength of Kirin itself.
> 
> All it did was create the conditions for a thunderstorm. If Sasuke could somehow manage that on his own, or if it was assumed that those conditions were already present (as they are here), then why the hell would the power discharged through the lightning be affected in any way?


More heat = more clouds = a bigger thunderstorm = stronger Kirin?



Nikushimi said:


> That's bullshit; first of all, Yomi Numa doesn't kill unless the target is submerged and actually drowns in it, and second, Sasuke has Raiton to neutralize that shit Jutsu anyway.
> 
> Also, Sasuke can damn sure bring his hand down before he free-falls into a swamp.
> 
> ...


Uhh... no. You said Jiraiya is in Itachi's exact situation. Well kindly remember that Sasuke was also exhausted and completely without any chakra. He can't use the Sharingan, and he can't use Raiton to neutralize anything. In fact, he can't do anything to defend himself for Jiraiya, especially since he's so intent on gloating. You also seem to be under the impression that Kirin is instantaneous. It isn't, at least not until Sasuke brings down his arm. It takes a while for the dragon thingie to form in the sky. That, coupled with Sasuke stupidly explaining the whole jutsu and gloating gives Jiraiya plenty of time, and motive, to act.



> And if we're gonna play the "chest-thumping" card, I'll remind you that Jiraiya has a more damaging reputation with that sort of thing than he does.


Wrong again. Jiraiya did that _in battle_ a grand total of two times, against Pain, and it didn't cost him anything. On the other hand if Sasuke excercised some damn common sense and subterfuge instead of explaining his whole jutsu in an "I win" rant, he might have killed Itachi.

Regardless, there's isn't any actual relevance to this debate, because while Jiraiya does brag, he doesn't do it at the climax of a fight, when he's severely
injured and exhausted, right before his opponent is about to use his trump card.

The fact that you brought this up shows you lack both an understanding of his character and common sense.


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## Remsengan (Mar 21, 2013)

Kirin doesn't increase or decrease in strength depending on the cloud coverage.  It's my understanding that , in regards to the heat and clouds, the conditions have to be met or Kirin doesn't fire at all.  That's why I think Hebi Sasuke is incapable of using Kirin by himself...he had run himself dry being able to use it alongside having additional heat from Ama.  No Ama, no Kirin.

But this scenario has Kirin setup already, so...

Here we have a situation where Jiraiya has to either have a split second defense against Kirin or have had to deduce it from the implied quarrel beforehand.  It's difficult to say whether or not Itachi had predicted Kirin.  I find it funny how Itachifans will use the "brothery love" excuse to render feats from this fight useless unless it somehow puts Itachi in a positive light, but in this case I think it's safe to say that Itachi uses Susano'o because he felt like it, rather than out of necessity.  After all, he's one of the most intelligent characters in the series and he could see Sasuke's Chakra...given the ques and knowledge available to Itachi, it's very likely he predicted such a large scale attack.

And if you know, the probability of survival greatly increases.  After all, you only have to get it with the bolt to take any serious damage.  Zetsu survived the shockwave merely by covering himself.  Anyone could shunshin out of the bolts range with knowledge.  And there's plenty of ques that it's an overhead attack given all the visual cues that show up before Sasuke can even launch the attack.

Really the nonsense about Kirin being as fast as lightning is just hype considering the ridiculous setup and visual ques that a required to utilize it.


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## Rainbird (Mar 21, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke is just as fast as Jiraiya, if not faster, so I don't see how J-man is crossing such an insane distance before Sasuke puts his hand down.



It's not an "insane distance," it's 25 meters, and it's not just Sasuke bringing down his arm, it's the fuckhuge lightning vortex forming in the sky long before Sasuke even raises his arm and takes control of the lightning, which gives Jiraiya plenty of forewarning. Shunshin can do the job. Might as well ask how Mifune can step so close before a guy can even forma few handseals, or how Sasuke can body flicker almost faster than Itachi can twitch his eye to aim Amaterasu, or how Gaara can zoom from getting punched by Rock Lee in midair to some shadowy corner in the prelim stadium in the 1 second it takes Rock Lee to wince, etc. 



> And basically everything you just said would be applicable to Itachi, who is faster than Jiraiya both in terms of movement speed and in terms of Jutsu execution, yet he could not do any of that.



The whole point of the "shunshin towards Sasuke" strategy is that the one doing it is banking on the fact that Sasuke won't kill himself with Kirin just for the sake of killing the opponent. As an expert on Itachi's character, I'm sure you can appreciate why he would be leery of making such a bet.

And obviously Itachi didn't use the kage bunshin strategy because it is comparatively much more inefficient than just using Susano'o, which Jiraiya doesn't have access to.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 21, 2013)

Rainbird said:


> It's not an "insane distance," it's 25 meters, and it's not just Sasuke bringing down his arm, it's the fuckhuge lightning vortex forming in the sky long before Sasuke even raises his arm and takes control of the lightning, which gives Jiraiya plenty of forewarning. Shunshin can do the job. Might as well ask how Mifune can step so close before a guy can even forma few handseals, or how Sasuke can body flicker almost faster than Itachi can twitch his eye to aim Amaterasu, or how Gaara can zoom from getting punched by Rock Lee in midair to some shadowy corner in the prelim stadium in the 1 second it takes Rock Lee to wince, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sasuke sees Jiraiya moving, he doesn't rant and immediately uses the jutsu instead.


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## Turrin (Mar 21, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> So if thats the case jiraiya will have to listen to sasukes speech as well and have the same exact time itachi had to react, if where to put them in the same exact position, and if that's the case jiraiya dies horribly


No because Jiraiya is not Itachi, that's the difference here, it's Jiraiya in Itachi's situation starting at the point where Sasuke has Kirin charged, not at the point the lighting bolt decends. I also want to say that Itachi probably wouldn't have sat there and done nothing ether if he didn't have Susano'o to fall back on.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 22, 2013)

Is sasuke standing there monologuing for a few minutes about Kirin like he did to Itachi?


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## Nikushimi (Mar 22, 2013)

Mr.Blonde said:


> More heat = more clouds = a bigger thunderstorm = stronger Kirin?



-snip-

The heat is used to create an ascending air current which results in the natural formation of a thunderstorm. Adding more heat isn't going to affect the quantity of the clouds, let alone the power discharged via lightning.

Provided Sasuke can create an ascending air current- the only explicit prerequisite for this phenomenon -there's absolutely no reason the resulting thunderstorm would be any different save for whatever other variables exist naturally. But, as we really only have one feat to go by, and as this situation is identical that one, this really doesn't even merit an argument.



> Uhh... no. You said Jiraiya is in Itachi's exact situation. Well kindly remember that Sasuke was also exhausted and completely without any chakra. He can't use the Sharingan, and he can't use Raiton to neutralize anything. In fact, he can't do anything to defend himself for Jiraiya, especially since he's so intent on gloating. You also seem to be under the impression that Kirin is instantaneous. It isn't, at least not until Sasuke brings down his arm. It takes a while for the dragon thingie to form in the sky. That, coupled with Sasuke stupidly explaining the whole jutsu and gloating gives Jiraiya plenty of time, and motive, to act.



Except Itachi couldn't or wouldn't act, and Jiraiya is in his _exact situation_.



> Wrong again. Jiraiya did that _in battle_ a grand total of two times, against Pain,



He did it when facing Itachi and Kisame and when he fended off Ebisu as well. It's not a habit he just picked up at the last minute while fighting Pain.



> and it didn't cost him anything.



Entirely incidental; the argument is not what it cost him but what it foreseeably could. Sasuke's monologue didn't cost him anything, either, yet you don't seem to have any qualms about jumping on him for it. I'm just showing you the obverse reality of that proposition.



> On the other hand if Sasuke excercised some damn common sense and subterfuge instead of explaining his whole jutsu in an "I win" rant, he might have killed Itachi.



Well, no. Sasuke didn't really have the opportunity to get the drop on Itachi with that Jutsu, and even if he had, there's nothing that says Itachi would've been unable to react to it.



> Regardless, there's isn't any actual relevance to this debate, because while Jiraiya does brag, he doesn't do it at the climax of a fight, when he's severely
> injured and exhausted, right before his opponent is about to use his trump card.
> 
> The fact that you brought this up shows you lack both an understanding of his character and common sense.



If we're gonna throw around the term "common sense" here, let's actually use it; Jiraiya's been in what, two major fights on-panel? That's hardly anything to go by when determining what he's likely to do at what point. The fact is, he's a lot mouthier and clumsier than Sasuke, so don't go acting like Sauce is the one at a disadvantage for something like that. He's got a far lengthier on-panel battle record than Jiraiya and doesn't exactly have a history of this sorta thing himself; this kind of thing is very situational and Jiraiya is as vulnerable to it as anybody, to say nothing of the fact that he's predisposed to it on a more frequent basis.

Regardless, I maintain that Sasuke's confidence won't be costing him anything here. The second Jiraiya makes a move, he can too, and Kirin is a lot faster than anything Jiraiya's got.



Rainbird said:


> It's not an "insane distance," it's 25 meters,



That is an insane distance; do you realize what would happen if I tried to run up and hit you or throw something at you from 25m? Assuming you're not a paraplegic, you'd have no trouble reacting.



> and it's not just Sasuke bringing down his arm, it's the fuckhuge lightning vortex forming in the sky long before Sasuke even raises his arm and takes control of the lightning, which gives Jiraiya plenty of forewarning. Shunshin can do the job.



Jiraiya's heavily fatigued and suffering from a deep wound in his leg (Itachi's exact situation); he won't be in any hurry to strike Sasuke down here.

Besides which, if you read the OP, you'll see that Kirin is already prepped; Sasuke does not need to wait for the "fuckhuge lightning vortex" to form.



> Might as well ask how Mifune can step so close before a guy can even forma few handseals,



Mifune is specially trained for that shit...and he did not do it from 25m.



> or how Sasuke can body flicker almost faster than Itachi can twitch his eye to aim Amaterasu,



Sasuke couldn't do that. He started running before Itachi even cast his Amaterasu and still got hit.



> or how Gaara can zoom from getting punched by Rock Lee in midair to some shadowy corner in the prelim stadium in the 1 second it takes Rock Lee to wince, etc.



TBH, I don't properly recall this example.



> The whole point of the "shunshin towards Sasuke" strategy is that the one doing it is banking on the fact that Sasuke won't kill himself with Kirin just for the sake of killing the opponent. As an expert on Itachi's character, I'm sure you can appreciate why he would be leery of making such a bet.
> 
> And obviously Itachi didn't use the kage bunshin strategy because it is comparatively much more inefficient than just using Susano'o, which Jiraiya doesn't have access to.



The thing about using Susano'o is, Itachi had no way of knowing if it would be sufficient to stop Kirin (and it almost wasn't); efficiency be damned, I'd think he'd want to avoid it at all costs rather than chance a direct hit and just hope Susano'o takes enough of the brunt for him to come out with only his outer layer of clothing vaporized.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Is sasuke standing there monologuing for a few minutes about Kirin like he did to Itachi?



Yes, and Jiraiya is standing there bewildered, fatigued, and with a hole in his leg until Sasuke brings down the Jutsu, just like Itachi was.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 22, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Yes, and Jiraiya is standing there bewildered, fatigued, and with a hole in his leg until Sasuke brings down the Jutsu, just like Itachi was.


That should provide enough time for Jiraiya to enter/reenter Sage Mode before Sasuke brings down Kirin. Sage Mode'd revitalize him and he'd be able to attack Sasuke before he brings the attack down.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 22, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That should provide enough time for Jiraiya to enter/reenter Sage Mode before Sasuke brings down Kirin. Sage Mode'd revitalize him and he'd be able to attack Sasuke before he brings the attack down.



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...How is that anywhere near enough time to enter Sage Mode? Sasuke says literally like two sentences between the time he seizes control of the lightning and the time he actually brings it down. Jiraiya spent an entire chapter riding Gamaken and fighting off Pain's summons before he was able to enter Sage Mode.

And even with Sage Mode, how's he simply going to attack Sasuke at this distance? The second he makes a move, Sasuke will just drop his hand and initiate the Jutsu.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 22, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Link removed
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> 
> ...


Summoning Fukasaku and Shima is the main thing that takes Jiraiya so long to enter Sage Mode hence why he took so long on getting into it during Pain. If he just enters Sage Mode normally, standing still for a few moments, he'd have enough to form the Sage Chakra and attack Sasuke before he finish his monologue. 

And given he can cover a large distance before his sandal could hit the ground. He should in Sage Mode be able to blitz Sasuke before he could get the tech off.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 22, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Summoning Fukasaku and Shima is the main thing that takes Jiraiya so long to enter Sage Mode hence why he took so long on getting into it during Pain. If he just enters Sage Mode normally, standing still for a few moments, he'd have enough to form the Sage Chakra and attack Sasuke before he finish his monologue.



How is Jiraiya going to concentrate on something like that when he has no knowledge of Kirin and no idea when it could come down? Itachi could have easily put up Susano'o while Sasuke was talking, too. The reality of the situation is very different; this is a supremely intimidating display of power, probably unlike anything even Jiraiya has seen in his long career as a shinobi. It's not something anyone would be able to adjust to so casually.



> And given he can cover a large distance before his sandal could hit the ground. He should in Sage Mode be able to blitz Sasuke before he could get the tech off.



Jiraiya couldn't blitz Pain with that speed. He isn't blitzing Sasuke- especially not from this distance.

Last I checked, SM doesn't heal wounds, either. Given that this is the same situation as Itachi, Jiraiya's got a pretty deep one right in his thigh.

Also, that sandle feat can't even be properly calculated, as we have no idea how long it took Jiraiya to leap from the exterior of the building relative to the time his sandals fell off. Free-fall isn't exactly fast compared to guys who can play dodgeball with the Rasen Shuriken.

The second Jiraiya even makes a move towards him, Sasuke can just bring his hand down. Going on the offensive is not an option, and it wasn't why I created this thread in the first place. This scenario exists to see if Jiraiya is capable of defending against Kirin.


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## Rainbird (Mar 22, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> That is an insane distance; do you realize what would happen if I tried to run up and hit you or throw something at you from 25m? Assuming you're not a paraplegic, you'd have no trouble reacting.



That counter's weaker than genin Sakura  Come on man, that's like saying "punching through a boulder without breaking your hand is an insane feat, do you realize what would happen if I tried to punch a boulder?" 

Shunshin to a shinobi really isn't like sprinting is to you or I. Shinobi sprint too, but shunshin is faster.



> Jiraiya's heavily fatigued and suffering from a deep wound in his leg (Itachi's exact situation); he won't be in any hurry to strike Sasuke down here.



There was this guy named Nagato, who stood on top of a cliff with Konan in his arms while his legs were wrapped in explosive tags, got his legs blown up, but somehow managed to shunshin 50 meters down the cliff so fast that Konan's cloak didn't even get singed, and still managed to stick his landing. 

Takeaway: to a shinobi, getting your legs exploded is no obstruction to jumping off a cliff with 100+ lbs in your arms and successfully landing without a stumble. 

A leg wound isn't going to stop Jiraiya (the man who restarted his own heart through sheer willpower after being gangbanged by 5 paths of Pain) from performing a shunshin when it's crunch time and his life is on the line.



> Besides which, if you read the OP, you'll see that Kirin is already prepped; Sasuke does not need to wait for the "fuckhuge lightning vortex" to form.



Irrelevant, really. I'm not going to declare that shunshin is 100% certain to halve that distance before Sasuke can drop his arm, but it has a respectable chance and honestly if Kishimoto wrote this in the manga it wouldn't shock me in the least. It's nowhere near as offensive as Sasuke's great snake escape, which is manga canon and yet breaks suspension of disbelief an order of magnitude more than the notion of Jiriaya closing 25 meters in a single body flicker. 

Want to see a canon shunshin literally five times more absurd than what I'm proposing here? You're a BD veteran, I'm sure you're familiar with the KillerBee feat of crossing god knows how many meters of empty air in the time it took Juugo to try and punch him. 

Jiraiya escaping Kirin's effective killing radius via approaching Sasuke's position by shunshin is small fries compared to that. 



> Mifune is specially trained for that shit...and he did not do it from 25m.
> 
> Sasuke couldn't do that. He started running before Itachi even cast his Amaterasu and still got hit.
> 
> TBH, I don't properly recall this example.



I really don't understand why you think 25 meters is so significant. Nitpicking the specifics of the three above examples aside, the manga is filled with instances of shinobi closing huge distances in miniscule amounts of time. Here's another random example: Pain escapes the clutch of Jiraiya's hair needle impalement while already in its grasp, and incidentally breaks another distance record in doing so. Note the distance that Jiraiya is from Pain, who is standing right at the point where the vertically rising pipes take a 90 degree curve into the wall. Observe that Pain is standing in the same spot when Jiraiya entangles him in his hair. Somehow Pain manages to kawarimi out in the split second it takes Jiraiya to spear him, and ends up on the head of his summon, which is a ludicrous distance from where he started, i.e. the bent pipes down below which are clearly visible.

And again, just for emphasis' sake, here is KillerBee again, aka the Usain Bolt of the Narutoverse. 

I'm sure if I dug deeper I could find more of this stuff. Seriously, Jiraiya closing the 25 meter gap that would render Kirin unsafe for Sasuke to use isn't as farfetched as you think. 



> The thing about using Susano'o is, Itachi had no way of knowing if it would be sufficient to stop Kirin (and it almost wasn't); efficiency be damned, I'd think he'd want to avoid it at all costs rather than chance a direct hit and just hope Susano'o takes enough of the brunt for him to come out with only his outer layer of clothing vaporized.



I'm not sure whether you're referring to the shunshin strategy or the kage bunshin strategy here, but ultimately it doesn't matter. If you're asking me, "if these ideas of yours are viable, Rainbird, why didn't Itachi use them?" the answer is, "because they are not guaranteed to be viable, either for Itachi or Jiraiya." I am saying that they might be viable, and given what we already know of Kirin in retrospect would be viable at least 50% of the time according to my gut feeling (and I said as much earlier), but again there is no guarantee.

To be more detailed as to why Itachi didn't use the strategies I proposed: Itachi doesn't know what Kirin does. Maybe Kirin sends down a single, titanic hammer of lightning to strike a limited area, in which case it might be more efficient to split off several kage/karasu bunshin and hope that Sasuke aims for the wrong one, rather than pit Susano'o against Kirin in a contest of brute strength. Or maybe Kirin produces a massive AOE storm of lighting bolts, in which chidoris basically fall like rain across an entire acre of land, in which case the shunshin/bunshin strategy would fail spectacularly and result in Itachi's death, whereas Susano'o would be able to survive just fine. Maybe Kirin does a combination of these things, maybe neither. Itachi doesn't know. So Itachi chooses the option that allows him the greatest probability of surviving overall. After all, Susano'o _might_ withstand a single bolt of power, and Susano'o would definitely withstand a rain of smaller bolts, whereas bunshin/shunshin would _absolutely_ fail against the rain of smaller bolts. Hence, Itachi hedges his bets and selects Susano'o. 

In this scenario, Jiraiya doesn't know what Kirin does either, but he doesn't have an absolute defense Susano'o option. So he just prays that Sasuke isn't suicidal, and he blitzes with shunshin.



Nikushimi said:


> Going on the offensive is not an option, and it wasn't why I created this thread in the first place. This scenario exists to see if Jiraiya is capable of defending against Kirin.



I'm sure you've heard what they say about the best defense. 

And if your definition of "defend" implies Jiraiya not blitzing, not moving, not leaving the battlefield, and just kind of standing there while Kirin descends on him like the fist of an angry God, then you needn't have created this thread in the first place. Anyone could have told you after a glance at his jutsu list on the Naruto Wiki that he doesn't possess a ninjutsu capable of "defending" against Kirin in the manner that you describe.


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## Turrin (Mar 22, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Yes, and Jiraiya is standing there bewildered, fatigued, and with a hole in his leg until Sasuke brings down the Jutsu, just like Itachi was. Going on the offensive is not an option, and it wasn't why I created this thread in the first place. This scenario exists to see if Jiraiya is capable of defending against Kirin.


Niku if Jiraiya has to stand there through Sasuke's monologue doing nothing and even when the bolt is discharged he can't move from his current position (through Shunshin, KB, or Reverse summoning) and just has to sit there and use a defensive jutsu to attempt to tank this, than of course he has no chance of survival. However that's not due to him having no chance of countering Kirin with his abilities that just due to you restricting any counter he could possibly have.

This thread is kind of pointless. It doesn't really measure how Jiraiya would perform in Itachi's situation or how Jiraiya would perform against Hebi Sasuke/Kirin. Now I know this is just a awkward attempt on your part to show Itachi > Jiraiya, but it really proves nothing considering it would be the same thing if I made a thread with the conditions as such:

Itachi in the Same situation as Jiraiya vs Animal Path

Itachi can't use any jutsu or evade. He has to stand his ground while the summon bull charges him and just use physical punchs against the Bull summon. 

Itachi would be massacred in this scenario, but what does it prove. It doesn't prove how Itachi would really perform in Jiraiya's situation or against Animal Path/Bull summon.


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## Addy (Mar 22, 2013)

i think he should avoid it if he can run fast enough but i don't know how much kirin can cover.


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## αce (Mar 22, 2013)

Addy, no one in this manga is out running lightning.


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## ueharakk (Mar 22, 2013)

In scenario 2:
Can't Ma just use dust cloud and force Sasuke to play the guessing game?

What about SM COR, would that be able to cancel enough Kirin for Sage Jiraiya to tank?


In base, all he can do is spam as many clones as he can and hope the real is far enough away.  Or be a douche and summon gamaken to take the majority of the hit for him (he'd still more than likely die though if he's in the path of the bolt).


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## Vice (Mar 22, 2013)

Spite thread is spiteful.


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## IchLiebe (Mar 22, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> What? you realize that you see a lightning blot finish its discharge before you hear the thunder right? Which is just sound being made from the channeling of the lightning being so fast.
> 
> J-Man dies here pretty much



People think speed of lightning=speed of light. Read . Kakashi cut lightning by Gai's words and I doubt Gai would make that up. So Jiraiya should be able to dodge it .


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## Stermor (Mar 22, 2013)

noone is making any physical movement during the lighting strike itself.. and only a few people could tank it.. 

there are a shitload of people who can counter the use/dogde the strike if sasuke still has to bring his arm down/focus the lighting.. jiriaya belongs in this group.. along with most if not all kage lvl shinobi..


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## Turrin (Mar 22, 2013)

αce said:


> Addy, no one in this manga is out running lightning.



The thing is the lighting has to be released via Sasuke lowering his hand. It's plausible that SM J-man could shunshin to a safe enough distance where he wouldn't die by the time Sasuke lowers his hand. We are talking about Senjutsu enhanced Shunshin after all.


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## BroKage (Mar 22, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I can't believe the insanity coming from some of you folks. It's like you think Sasuke is just going to stand there and let Jiraiya attack him instead of dropping the huge, mountain-shattering lightning bolt he already has prepped. That's *indefensible*. Sasuke isn't any slower than Jiraiya and has Sharingan to read his moves; there is no way J-man can cut him short.


Blame the conditions of your thread.

The match-up inspires people to loophole and grasp for straws to find any method for Jiraiya to either survive Kirin's usage or prevent it. Otherwise the thread would either be ignored or have streams of people saying Sasuke wins.

Jiraiya has no special evasive/defensive jutsus besides hair and SM buffs so there's no reason to compare him to Itachi in this field or think he might be able to avoid/block a lightning bolt. And if you knew it was impossible from the start there's no reason to even make the thread besides spite.


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## Cyphon (Mar 22, 2013)

This isn't the _exact_ same scenario as vs Itachi because you have restricted Jiraiya one of his methods of escaping the jutsu. A restriction Itachi didn't have. Yes, people have already covered that but I wanted to reiterate the point since it is absolutely true. You are talking about a ring out but this isn't the Cell Games. This is a ninja battle. Tobi and Minato leave the battlefield all of the time and they don't "lose". So yeah, it is an option and one Jiraiya could likely achieve. Keep in mind despite everything that happened vs Pain he still could have escaped as well and I would say this is an easier scenario to do it in. Summoning speed is incredible and given Sasuke is doing his speech I have no doubts Jiraiya could escape by this method.

Anyway, since you have restricted Jiraiya to make this more fair to Sasuke lets talk about some other possible options.

- *Food Cart Destroyer*. As most of you should know this is a jutsu that summons a frog away from the summoner and above the head of the enemy. I will briefly touch on the obvious things but then point out something I haven't seen mentioned. The main reason this should be effective is because it would at the very least shock Sasuke and force him into another action. So even if it doesn't take Sasuke out it causes him problems and gives Jiraiya more time to do something else. 

Now the not so obvious thing I wanted to talk about was this move possibly cutting off Sasuke's control of the lightning. He needs his hand with Chidori to connect and guide the lightning. So if a frog appears directly between Sasuke and the natural lightning what happens? I can't answer that but it is something interesting to think about.

- *Yomi Numa*. And/or, the swamp that can fix any problem. As many have point out already this jutsu is fast and effective and can cover a major area. I am not going to elaborate much here because the results should be obvious. Even if Sasuke can counter the jutsu he has to do just that. If he is countering it he isn't bringing Kirin down. And if he does try to bring it down suddenly having his bodies position changed would throw that off. 

I am kind of rushing this but I think those are his 2 best options in base. They have a fairly high chance of success IMO and may be his only 2 options outside of reverse summoning or sacrificing a frog which I am not sure if he would do or not. His other jutsu aren't quite so fast IIRC and may give Sasuke time to see it and hurry up his process. 


The same 2 jutsu apply to SM but you also have Ma and Pa tongue moves or Frog Call to add onto it. Again, I kind of rushed this and may be forgetting an option or 2 but any of the above should work.

For me it isn't really a question of if he can survive by doing these things but whether or not he would choose to do them in that situation.


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## BroKage (Mar 22, 2013)

Kai said:


> Manda was killed by a portion of Deidara's C0 at the cost of saving Sasuke's life, so I don't see why Gamabunta can't be gravely injured or killed by Kirin at the cost of saving Jiraiya's life.


That doesn't seem in-character for Jiraiya OR Gamabunta, though.

Sasuke got Manda to protect him by summoning and then genjutsu'ing him into submission. Jiraiya doesn't have any genjutsus that can be used quickly enough to force Gamabunta to sacrifice his life for him, and normally Gamabunta probably wouldn't agree to it while Jiraiya probably wouldn't ask in the first place.


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## Stermor (Mar 22, 2013)

we should also talk about a normal way ot counter it.. throw 2 kunai connected by iron wire one up and another away  

basically the normal way to divert lighting.. 

to make it fun you can even throw one of the kunai at sasuke and divert the lighting close to him..


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Mar 23, 2013)

While he's certainly a formidable shinobi, Jiraiya's nowhere near fast enough to react to Kirin, IMO.

The more interesting question has to do with him being able to strike back _after_ Kirin hits him.  In his fight with Pain, he literally willed himself back to life long enough to send a message to Naruto about Pain's secret.  He could potentially do something similar here, except that instead of sending a message, he'd be launching one final attack at Sasuke--perhaps a Yomi Numa or Cho Oodama Rasengan.  Given that Sasuke's basically running on empty at this point, that would result in a mutual kill.


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## Krippy (Mar 23, 2013)

Jiraiya isn't going to be making any useful movements after being hit by Kirin, if he even lives through it, which aint happening any time soon


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