# Vegeta vs. Wonder Woman



## Kuya (Oct 27, 2006)

Vegeta at the end of DBZ.

Wonder Woman present day.

No Prep Time. Battlefield - Earth.


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## Thanatos (Oct 27, 2006)

You have GOT to be kidding. Vegeta (moving much faster then wonder woman could ever see) flies up, and fires a blast. Fight over. No contest.

Or additionally, he could just slap her into a building.


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## Blue (Oct 27, 2006)

^ Wonder Woman has Superman powers, brilliant one. =__=

She slaps HIM into a building. In a physical battle, this is no contest.

The beam might work tho, if he can get it on her.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 27, 2006)

A close fight but Vegeta wins imho 
There speeds will be roughly matched, as far as strength is concerned, i think wonder woman has the advantage. But Vegeta has more abilitys/utility which should win him the fight. I mean he can Manipulate his energy to 'lock down' an enemy. With bloodlust he wouldn't taunt his enemy for 15 minutes, he'd just kill them while they are held down unable to defend.


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## Thanatos (Oct 27, 2006)

Blue said:


> ^ Wonder Woman has Superman powers, brilliant one.



Fair enough. I don't stay up to date on poorly thought out superheroes created for the sake of patriotism (Superman and Captain America come to mind...), so I was going on the 1960's version.

Still, I suppose a highly powered Alien who used to conquer planets for a living would pale in comparison to a woman with a rope .


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

And biased tardism once again rears its ugly head.

Diana is at least lightspeed, possibly faster (proven when she followed Jesse Quick into the Speedforce, also when she escaped from a black hole), her durability is ridiculous (she was punched from near the sun all the way to earth by Superman at FTL speed and was only stunned for a second), she has a sword that is magically enchanted to shave the electrons off of an atom and cut can through pretty much anything (even a slight touch will draw blood from Superman himself), and to top it all off, she has the Godwave, which is a cosmic - level attack.


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## earthshine (Oct 27, 2006)

> And biased tardism once again rears its ugly head.
> 
> Diana is at least lightspeed, possibly faster (proven when she followed Jesse Quick into the Speedforce, also when she escaped from a black hole), her durability is ridiculous (she was punched from near the sun all the way to earth by Superman at FTL speed and was only stunned for a second), she has a sword that is magically enchanted to shave the electrons off of an atom and cut can through pretty much anything (even a slight touch will draw blood from Superman himself), and to top it all off, she has the Godwave, which is a cosmic - level attack.




point?


vegeta was able to blow up planets when he was first introduced, say nothing of when he attained SS2. he has a cosmic level attack too: final flash. he was nowhere near as strong as he was at the end of DBZ when he used it on cell, so you can imagine how powerful it is at the end of DBZ.




seriously, he has more raw power than she does(energy AND physical), he can move faster than the superhuman eye can see(even most people who where vastly superhuman could not even keep track of him), and he has tons of tricks and abilities.



wonderwoman attained lightspeed? forst off, I take it that was in space, not in an atmosphere, and secondly does she consistently move like that in her fights? somehow I doubt it.


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## Keollyn (Oct 27, 2006)

earthshine said:
			
		

> point?
> 
> 
> vegeta was able to blow up planets when he was first introduced, say nothing of when he attained SS2. *he has a cosmic level attack too: final flash.* he was nowhere near as strong as he was at the end of DBZ when he used it on cell, so you can imagine how powerful it is at the end of DBZ.



What the shit?!




> seriously, he has more raw power than she does(energy AND *physical*), he can move faster than the superhuman eye can see(even most people who where vastly superhuman could not even keep track of him), and he has tons of tricks and abilities.



What the shit!?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

earthshine said:


> point?
> 
> 
> vegeta was able to blow up planets when he was first introduced



Debatable. He was having a nervous breakdown at the time and was not quite in his right mind.

Unless you're talking about Arlia, you realize that was filler, right?



> say nothing of when he attained SS2.



Care to quantify exactly how much stronger he's gotten? Or else that means nothing.



> he has a cosmic level attack too: final flash.



Do you know what "cosmic" means? 



> he was nowhere near as strong as he was at the end of DBZ when he used it on cell, so you can imagine how powerful it is at the end of DBZ.



No, you have to quantify it. Or else it means nothing.



> seriously, he has more raw power than she does(energy AND physical)



Bullshit. DBZ characters are not physically strong at all, their highest physical feats are breaking small mountains, whereas Wonder Woman can lift anything on earth (stated), has moved 1/3rd the weight of the earth and the moon, is almost or possibly as strong as Superman who can move the moon by himself and move planets, etc.



> , he can move faster than the superhuman eye can see(even most people who where vastly superhuman could not even keep track of him), and he has tons of tricks and abilities.



Nothing compared to FTL speed, no one in DBZ is anywhere near c except with the use of IT, which is teleportation, not speed.



> wonderwoman attained lightspeed? forst off, I take it that was in space, not in an atmosphere, and secondly does she consistently move like that in her fights? somehow I doubt it.



First time was in space, black hole on earth (it was a small one).

The point is she is capable of it, and routinely keeps up with superfast people like the Flashes and Superman (who are way faster than DBZ characters).

Also by crossing her bracelets she can form a forcefield that is powerful enough to block the combined energy of the pantheon of Greek gods (which includes Skyfather - level beings).


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## ez (Oct 27, 2006)

wonder woman outclasses vegeta in every way

maybe if she had handicaps vegeta might last a few seconds against her =/


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## earthshine (Oct 27, 2006)

> Debatable. He was having a nervous breakdown at the time and was not quite in his right mind.
> 
> Unless you're talking about Arlia, you realize that was filler, right?




roshi could blow up the moon, and he was not even 1/100 of vegeta's power. a planet like earth would not be difficult.





> Care to quantify exactly how much stronger he's gotten? Or else that means nothing.




vegeta had a power level of 18,000 when first inmtoduced. full power frieza was at 120,000,000. by the end of DBZ, vegeta was strogner than perfect cell, who was WAY stronger than frieza. that is a LOT of growth.






> Do you know what "cosmic" means?



actually, no. can you explain(complelty serious)






> No, you have to quantify it. Or else it means nothing.




can you tell me EXACTLY how strong WW is? other than feats?





> Bullshit. DBZ characters are not physically strong at all, their highest physical feats are breaking small mountains, whereas Wonder Woman can lift anything on earth (stated), has moved 1/3rd the weight of the earth and the moon, is almost or possibly as strong as Superman who can move the moon by himself and move planets, etc.




do you know ho much strength it would take to actually punch any later DBZ  characters and actually hurt them?





> Nothing compared to FTL speed, no one in DBZ is anywhere near c except with the use of IT, which is teleportation, not speed.



debateable. people who are stronger than someone else can move faster than thgeir eyes can see, and see their moves pefectly. then when somebody stronger comes, they can do the same to them. remember, people in dbz are not moving faster than the human eye can see, they are moving faster than the SUPERhuman eye can see. the ginyus where able to acomplish some amazing speed feats, but when goku cam along he was so fast that they did not even know he was miving while dodging them.





First time was in space, black hole on earth (it was a small one).


> The point is she is capable of it, and routinely keeps up with superfast people like the Flashes and Superman (who are way faster than DBZ characters).
> 
> Also by crossing her bracelets she can form a forcefield that is powerful enough to block the combined energy of the pantheon of Greek gods (which includes Skyfather - level beings).



we still have no idea what a DBZ character can do. as I aid, they just keep getting faster and faster. no real comeback for the bracelets though.(they just keep adding powers, huh?)


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

earthshine said:


> roshi could blow up the moon, and he was not even 1/100 of vegeta's power. a planet like earth would not be difficult.



Really, do you have canon evidence supporting that figure? Power levels are not exactly logical or reliable.

Not to mention the earth's GBE is almost 2000 times greater than the moon's.



> vegeta had a power level of 18,000 when first inmtoduced. full power frieza was at 120,000,000. by the end of DBZ, vegeta was strogner than perfect cell, who was WAY stronger than frieza. that is a LOT of growth.



And as I said, power levels mean nothing. Or else that farmer with a PL of 5 would have had enough power to destroy 1/28th of the moon.



> actually, no. can you explain(complelty serious)



As in, godlike, reality - warping, time - spanning, primordial wipe - you - completely - out - of - existence kind of stuff.

The Godwave is an essential component of the DC universe, it's the energy that empowers the gods and sculpts the universe. Diana can channel it into an attack that really can't be stopped unless you're a much higher - level cosmic.



> can you tell me EXACTLY how strong WW is? other than feats?



How else am I supposed to quantify her strength? Feats are how we measure it.



> do you know ho much strength it would take to actually punch any later DBZ  characters and actually hurt them?



At least several hundred tons of force, judging by the physical destructing they can cause. Nothing compared to the strength feats of Diana.



> debateable. people who are stronger than someone else can move faster than thgeir eyes can see, and see their moves pefectly. then when somebody stronger comes, they can do the same to them. remember, people in dbz are not moving faster than the human eye can see, they are moving faster than the SUPERhuman eye can see. the giues where able to acomplish some amazing speed feats, but when goku cam along he was so fast that they did not even know he was miving while dodging them.



Yeah, yeah, yeah, blah blah blah. That means precisely squat unless you can actually quantify it. The same thing happens in Bleach and Kenshin. There's absolutely no proof that DBZ characters are anywhere near the speed of light.



> we still have no idea what a DBZ character can do. as I aid, they just keep getting faster and faster. no real comeback for the bracelets though.(they just keep adding powers, huh?)



Last time I checked, the manga ended in 1995, so we have a very good idea of what they can do.

And she's had that power pretty much since the Post - Crisis reboot (1985).


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## Nice Gai (Oct 27, 2006)

Man I love Vegeta
Sweetest Sin

If she lets Vegeta do this its pretty much over. I havent seen really no one power up in DC comic verse so she will be like why is he screaming. She will be ready to fight. If she is a stupid as Cell and let Vegeta hit her with Final Flash then I give it to him.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

More like she'll just KO him while he's wasting time powering up.

That's a weakness, not a strength.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 27, 2006)

We need a scan of Wonderwoman going at the speed of light. Or in combat at that speed. Personally i haven't seen it since silver age.

Wonder woman doesn't have a thing on superman, shes slower, weaker, not as battle seasoned etc. I wouldn't say godwave is standard equipment (Like HOTU isn't standard for Thanos)

While i belieev Superman and Goku to be evenly matched, Wonderwoman is below superman by a large ammount and Vegeta is below Goku by a small ammount.


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## King Bookah (Oct 27, 2006)

I wish comic book superheros would be more consistent with their power levels (not saying DBZ is perfect).  Very difficult to judge them when one minute they can go toe 2 toe with Superman then the next minute they have trouble lifting a car.  Anyways, I need to read up on WW some more in order to make a decision on this battle.


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## Kazuma the Shell Bullet (Oct 27, 2006)

Wonder Woman would pwn Vegeta (most mid-tier Marvel and DC characters can)


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## Gooba (Oct 27, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> We need a scan of Wonderwoman going at the speed of light. Or in combat at that speed. Personally i haven't seen it since silver age.





			
				Gooba said:
			
		

>





			
				Gooba said:
			
		

> 1.
> 2.
> 3.
> 4.
> ...


Just some impressive feats of her vs an all out Superman.

Wonder Woman = Superman + boobs.  She is strictly better.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> We need a scan of Wonderwoman going at the speed of light. Or in combat at that speed. Personally i haven't seen it since silver age.



Keeps up with Jesse Quick:




Tags an evil Flash:



Here's the lightspeed feat. She follows Jesse Quick up to the Speedforce barrier (for a Flash, reaching the Speedforce barrier means they're going lightspeed).





Keeps up with Wally, Jay, and Superman:



Black hole feat










> Wonder woman doesn't have a thing on superman, shes slower, weaker, not as battle seasoned etc.



That's not what Superman thinks:





> I wouldn't say godwave is standard equipment (Like HOTU isn't standard for Thanos)



She can summon it at will, it just takes a while and is kind of dangerous.


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## Nice Gai (Oct 27, 2006)

Her beautiful face is ruined. Wow that was one hell of comic with Supes and WW. Def impressive.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 27, 2006)

I gotta disagree with that since she lost to superman, so i'd say shes under him at least.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

Not by that much. Maybe like 5% difference.


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## Orion (Oct 27, 2006)

^^agree shes preety badass and would take vegeta no prob.


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## Ryuji Yamazaki (Oct 27, 2006)

Vegeta, pretty easily.
He just has to keep firing off planet busters into her face.
WW has never had to take that level of punishment.

It ends with Vegeta using the lasso on WW as dog leash.


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## Dr.Douchebag (Oct 27, 2006)

she has insane durability and yea i think she is below supes but by a small amount but her sword and other abilities make up for it imo

(i should read more DC )


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

NinjaJJ said:


> Vegeta, pretty easily.
> He just has to keep firing off planet busters into her face.
> WW has never had to take that level of punishment.
> 
> It ends with Vegeta using the lasso on WW as dog leash.



Few problems:

1. Vegeta can't just fire planet - destroying blasts like a gatling gun. He has to charge up significantly to fire even one.

2. Diana's forcefield can deflect combined force from gods that included Skyfather level beings, and against Neron it was even stated that it can 'block any force directed against it'.

3. Diana is faster and stronger, she just has to hit him once and it's over.


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## ez (Oct 27, 2006)

well EM, SSJ 2 Gohan was able to release a planetbuster kamehameha against cell(correct me if im wrong) without charing -- not the final father son kamehameha -- and Vegeta at the end of DBZ is far stronger than ssj2 gohan was vs cell. Not that it would make a difference though, Diana would just reflect his blasts and Vegeta doesn't have infinite energy, he'd be tired after firing a couple of blasts. After reflecting the blasts he'd be even more fucked than he was before.
edit:
[L33T Raw]- Ghost in the Shell Stand alone complex: Solid State Society

cell releases that

gohan counters 

[L33T Raw]- Ghost in the Shell Stand alone complex: Solid State Society
[L33T Raw]- Ghost in the Shell Stand alone complex: Solid State Society
[L33T Raw]- Ghost in the Shell Stand alone complex: Solid State Society

I think vegeta is capable of doing planet busters fast


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## Ryuji Yamazaki (Oct 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Few problems:
> 
> 1. Vegeta can't just fire planet - destroying blasts like a gatling gun. He has to charge up significantly to fire even one. *...By the time he gets to the End of DBZ, he can chuck around significant force to level continents without charging at all, heck he probably could blow a big ass hole in a planet without charging.*
> 
> ...



I don't care enough about DBZ...


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## Blue (Oct 27, 2006)

I think a Planet buster will pretty much wipe out anything that takes it head on. 

The thing is, if I recall, you have to be pretty slow and stupid to take it head on, even if you're a DBZ character. Wonder Woman is literally a thousand times faster. >_<


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

> ..By the time he gets to the End of DBZ, he can chuck around significant force to level continents without charging at all, heck he probably could blow a big ass hole in a planet without charging.



Evidence?



> Narrative hyperbole for the Neron thing. How much effort were these Skyfather level beings putting into this attack and how many times did they hit her?



Once with a combined attack of all their power.



> She may be slightly stronger but Vegeta is by this point equal in speed and possibly strength.



Really because Vegeta never went anywhere near lightspeed or moved a planet or moon.


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## Darklyre (Oct 27, 2006)

Blue said:


> I think a Planet buster will pretty much wipe out anything that takes it head on.
> 
> The thing is, if I recall, you have to be pretty slow and stupid to take it head on, even if you're a DBZ character. Wonder Woman is literally a thousand times faster. >_<



There are characters that can sleep right through a planet buster attack and not even notice it.


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## Mangekyō (Oct 27, 2006)

I would thin Vegeta...but i dont know, is wonder woman really that strong....i know they say dont judge a book by its cover, but WW looks really lame in speed and str.


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## Gunners (Oct 27, 2006)

Didn't Buu blow away a city with relative ease. The attacks later on are controlled so they focus on the enemy and not blow the planet into oblvion.

Anyway, I don't really know much on Wonder woman just that she is below Superman. Since I think Goku is level with Superman or above him and Vegeta is equal to Goku in some regards I place him above Wonderwoman.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

Trust me, she is very fast and very strong. Check out some of the scans that have been posted.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

gunners said:


> Didn't Buu blow away a city with relative ease. The attacks later on are controlled so they focus on the enemy and not blow the planet into oblvion.
> 
> Anyway, I don't really know much on Wonder woman just that she is below Superman. Since I think Goku is level with Superman or above him and Vegeta is equal to Goku in some regards I place him above Wonderwoman.



*sigh*

Not this crap again.

If the attacks are 'controlled' then where does all that planet - cracking energy go, if it just disappears and doesn't damage the planet?


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## Gunners (Oct 27, 2006)

> If the attacks are 'controlled' then where does all that planet - cracking energy go, if it just disappears and doesn't damage the planet?



On to the enemy. If it misses they don't follow through with the attack I would say. Look it's this simple around Sajjin time, they could blow up the planet, but we will say Freiza time as it actually happened. From that point on their power increased, Freiza wouldn't be able to harm Goku by series end his only hope would be to blow up the planet so he suffocates. They control the attacks I think Akira said this also.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

That makes no sense. Unless the enemy somehow absorbs the attack (and only 19 and 20 can do that) then it has nowhere to go and wouldn't just dissappear.

Diana has much better feats than Vegeta, she has clearly been shown to be stronger, faster, better defense, and with her weapons she has a decisive attack advantage.


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## kyutofukumaki (Oct 27, 2006)

Vegeta can access super saiyan 4 and in his gorilla version he has a lot of strengh. Wonderwoman only has strengh and the ability to fly so vegeta will win for sure believe it.


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## Gunners (Oct 27, 2006)

> That makes no sense. Unless the enemy somehow absorbs the attack (and only 19 and 20 can do that) then it has nowhere to go and wouldn't just dissappear.



Well it is possible that they do through ki. But I am trying to think, if the attack is used to destroy them energy would be used up as it damages their body.



> Diana has much better feats than Vegeta, she has clearly been shown to be stronger, faster, better defense, and with her weapons she has a decisive attack advantage.



Well I don't really much of Diana's fighting feats, I know she is below Superman in majority of the areas and that's what I am making ym decission on.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

gunners said:


> Well it is possible that they do through ki. But I am trying to think, if the attack is used to destroy them energy would be used up as it damages their body.



Energy isn't 'used up'. It's just converted from one form to another. We've already gone over this about 20 times. Just stop it already.



> Well I don't really much of Diana's fighting feats, I know she is below Superman in majority of the areas and that's what I am making ym decission on.



Not by much. I've already showed scans of her moving and reacting at lightspeed, and she's been punched millions of kilometers at FTL speeds and crashed into the earth, her forcefield can block massively more powerful attacks than she would normally be able to, her lasso is unbreakable, she has a sword that can cut through pretty much anything, and she is an extremely skilled warrior (she was also with Superman when they got 1000 years of training in Valhalla).


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## Darklyre (Oct 27, 2006)

kyutofukumaki said:


> Vegeta can access super saiyan 4 and in his gorilla version he has a lot of strengh. Wonderwoman only has strengh and the ability to fly so vegeta will win for sure believe it.



Only strength and flight? What the hell are you basing this off of, the Wonder Woman shows from the 70s or something? Wonder Woman is nearly equal to Superman, only divinely empowered and equipped.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

kyutofukumaki said:


> Vegeta can access super saiyan 4 and in his gorilla version he has a lot of strengh. Wonderwoman only has strengh and the ability to fly so vegeta will win for sure believe it.



*sigh*

GT is non - canon.

Even if it was, it wouldn't really help since SSJ4 didn't really demonstrate anything impressive.

Furthermore, Diana has an arsenal of enchanted weapons and her speed, strength, and durability are far in excess of Vegeta's.


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## earthshine (Oct 27, 2006)

> Really, do you have canon evidence supporting that figure? Power levels are not exactly logical or reliable.
> 
> Not to mention the earth's GBE is almost 2000 times greater than the moon's.



not really. the farmer can't use ki.


also, just to prove a planet is nothnig, frieza, in his weakest form(below one million), blew up planet vageta with no effort. vegeta is FAR more powerful, so I doubt earth is a big deal.






> How else am I supposed to quantify her strength? Feats are how we measure it.




and exactly how do you wante me to quantify vegeta? 







> Yeah, yeah, yeah, blah blah blah. That means precisely squat unless you can actually quantify it. The same thing happens in Bleach and Kenshin. There's absolutely no proof that DBZ characters are anywhere near the speed of light.




really? quantify diana. right here. tell me EXACTLY how strong she is, how fast she is, and how much damage she can take. you can't can you? you have to go by feats, just like DBZ.


 also, if you want to apply real life physics, if she can think and move at lightspeed, then she would be able to almost instantaly appear anywhere on earth in secods, since not only does she move at lightspeed, but she can think at it.(she makes all the turns and figures out where she is in a matter of microseconds). also, the world would appear to be standing still. does it? flash has an explanation(he can shut off his speedforce), whats wonderwomans excuse for not going insane since, to her, a simple five miniute conversation would takes moths or years form her perspective.






> Last time I checked, the manga ended in 1995, so we have a very good idea of what they can do.
> 
> And she's had that power pretty much since the Post - Crisis reboot (1985).




not really. with each powerup, they gain the ability to movve faster than even other people like them can see. this just keeps happening, by the end of DBZ, goku(full power), logically speaking, would be able to rip 100% frieza's head off from a mile away, then return to his position before frieza's brain even registred that he moved.


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## Kazuma the Shell Bullet (Oct 27, 2006)

gunners said:


> Didn't Buu blow away a city with relative ease. The attacks later on are controlled so they focus on the enemy and not blow the planet into oblvion.
> 
> Anyway, I don't really know much on Wonder woman just that she is below Superman. Since I think Goku is level with Superman or above him and Vegeta is equal to Goku in some regards I place him above Wonderwoman.



Why do you people think Goku could beat Superman? Superman is WAY stronger than Goku and Wonder Woman is almost as strong as Superman. Therefore Wonder Woman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Vegeta

And  BTW Freiza blowing up planet Vegeta was only in the anime which isnt cannon


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## Phenomenol (Oct 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Diana has much better feats than Vegeta, she has clearly been shown to be stronger, faster, better defense, and with her weapons she has a decisive attack advantage.



Bwhahahahaahahaa

This thread is daft, Vegeta EASILY wins with a planet destroying blast the size of a Tennis ball.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

earthshine said:


> not really. the farmer can't use ki.



Of course he can. Ki in DBZ is life force. Without ki, he'd be dead. He uses it every time he moves, or breathes, or anything.



> also, just to prove a planet is nothnig, frieza, in his weakest form(below one million), blew up planet vageta with no effort. vegeta is FAR more powerful, so I doubt earth is a big deal.



In the canon manga, it was only stated that Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta, never explained or shown how. You're talking about a filler.

Besides, I never denied that Vegeta could destroy a planet by the end of DBZ.



> and exactly how do you wante me to quantify vegeta?



With logical, measurable, canon evidence.



> really? quantify diana. right here. tell me EXACTLY how strong she is, how fast she is, and how much damage she can take. you can't can you? you have to go by feats, just like DBZ.



Strength: She can move at least 1/3rd the weight of the earth.

Speed: At least lightspeed, possibly faster.

Durability: Without her forcefield, able to take planet - smashing physical forces, with it, able to take Skyfather - level cosmic forces.



> also, if you want to apply real life physics, if she can think and move at lightspeed, then she would be able to almost instantaly appear anywhere on earth in secods, since not only does she move at lightspeed, but she can think at it.(she makes all the turns and figures out where she is in a matter of microseconds). also, the world would appear to be standing still. does it? flash has an explanation(he can shut off his speedforce), whats wonderwomans excuse for not going insane since, to her, a simple five miniute conversation would takes moths or years form her perspective.



Because she doesn't react at that speed all the time? 

Same thing with Superman and everyone else who can move super fast.



> not really. with each powerup, they gain the ability to movve faster than even other people like them can see. this just keeps happening, by the end of DBZ, goku(full power), logically speaking, would be able to rip 100% frieza's head off from a mile away, then return to his position before frieza's brain even registred that he moved.



And, of course, you're going to provide canon evidence of this......


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## Keollyn (Oct 27, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Bwhahahahaahahaa
> 
> This thread is daft, Vegeta EASILY wins with a planet destroying blast the size of a Tennis ball.



Vegeta =/= Burori.

You fail at DBZ knowledge.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Bwhahahahaahahaa
> 
> This thread is daft, Vegeta EASILY wins with a planet destroying blast the size of a Tennis ball.



He's back! 

Listen, Phenomen - LOL, Diana has taken stronger forces than every DBZ attack ever seen combined and deflected them. She is also lightspeed. She cracks Vegeta's skull open before he even realizes what's happening.


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## Phenomenol (Oct 27, 2006)

Keollyn said:


> Vegeta =/= Burori.
> 
> You fail at DBZ knowledge.



Guess, you didn't see Vegeta EASILY blast away Kid Buu's attack that was the size of a Tennis ball and was going to destroy earth.

You fail.


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## Phenomenol (Oct 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> He's back!
> 
> Listen, Phenomen - LOL, Diana has taken stronger forces than every DBZ attack ever seen combined and deflected them. She is also lightspeed. She cracks Vegeta's skull open before he even realizes what's happening.




WTF 

Do you know anything about Wonder Woman? She is lower than Superman in every ASPECT. She is not lightspeed, she NEVER took on  planet destroying attacks.

Wonder Woman dies faster than I can cut a sandwich.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Guess, you didn't see Vegeta EASILY blast away Kid Buu's attack that was the size of a Tennis ball and was going to destroy earth.
> 
> You fail.



Considering that, before detonation, DBZ ki blasts behave more like solid matter projectiles than like actual energy, you wouldn't really need more energy that one would contain to deflect it.

Not to mention that one was more the size of a beach ball.



Phenomenol said:


> WTF
> 
> Do you know anything about Wonder Woman? She is lower than Superman in every ASPECT. She is not lightspeed, she NEVER took on  planet destroying attacks.
> 
> Wonder Woman dies faster than I can cut a sandwich.



You're a moron. I've posted scans showing her lightspeed feats earlier in this thread, and if you want I'll post her durability feats.


----------



## Gunners (Oct 27, 2006)

> Energy isn't 'used up'. It's just converted from one form to another. We've already gone over this about 20 times. Just stop it already.



I know energy can not be destroyed and it is always transformed from one form to another, that being said even the lesser attacks what would happen to the energy there? The energy would be tranformed in the exact same fascion.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

gunners said:


> I know energy can not be destroyed and it is always transformed from one form to another, that being said even the lesser attacks what would happen to the energy there? The energy would be tranformed in the exact same fascion.



What?

I can't even tell what you're asking now.


----------



## Gunners (Oct 27, 2006)

> What?
> 
> I can't even tell what you're asking now.



If energy can only be transformed why do their attacks never end?  What is the energy from the attack transformed into, otherwise they woudl continue going right?


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Oct 27, 2006)

> I know energy can not be destroyed and it is always transformed from one form to another, that being said even the lesser attacks what would happen to the energy there? The energy would be tranformed in the exact same fascion.


I think that dbz characters that no longer control a ki attack allow the energy to dissapate. From what we know, all living things in the DBZ-verse give off ki. The warriors are able to hone their ki into something destructive. They have to focus to maintain it in a destructive form, otherwise it just gets absorbed into their surroundings. I think that's how they prevent their enormously powerful attacks from doing truly devastaing damage to their surroundings.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

gunners said:


> If energy can only be transformed why do their attacks never end?  What is the energy from the attack transformed into, otherwise they woudl continue going right?



The obvious explanation is that the energy is transformed into heat, kinetic energy, light, etc. and does most of its work deforming the landscape, which most of the time is nowhere near planet - busting.



blacklusterseph004 said:


> I think that dbz characters that no longer control a ki attack allow the energy to dissapate. From what we know, all living things in the DBZ-verse give off ki. The warriors are able to hone their ki into something destructive. They have to focus to maintain it in a destructive form, otherwise it just gets absorbed into their surroundings. I think that's how they prevent their enormously powerful attacks from doing truly devastaing damage to their surroundings.



Absorbed into their surroundings?

What is that supposed to mean?

If you have planet - destroying energy, it's not going be 'absorbed in the surroundings' without blowing them to hell.


----------



## Thanatos (Oct 27, 2006)

Why is it that so many people on this forum neg rep *solely* because someone doesn't agree with them? That's just pathetic.

And just so that this is on-topic, the Votes so far dictate that Vegeta wins.


----------



## Knivesx2004 (Oct 27, 2006)

2 words.

*FINAAAAAAAL FLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASH!!!!!*


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Oct 27, 2006)

> Absorbed into their surroundings?
> 
> What is that supposed to mean?
> 
> If you have planet - destroying energy, it's not going be 'absorbed in the surroundings' without blowing them to hell.


It means that ki isn't something that is naturally in a destructive state, and while a dbz warrior can mold into such a form, he can also release it from that form. In a non destructive state it would then simply be a life force that other living things could absorb.


----------



## Kazuma the Shell Bullet (Oct 27, 2006)

Mortalis said:


> And just so that this is on-topic, the Votes so far dictate that Veget wins.


So? doesnt make it fact. Ive seen polls where people think the Narutoverse could beat the OPverse but that isnt true now is it?


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:


> It means that ki isn't something that is naturally in a destructive state, and while a dbz warrior can mold into such a form, he can also release it from that form. In a non destructive state it would then simply be a life force that other living things could absorb.



So it hits and then just creates a small crater, and just disappears?



Knivesx2004 said:


> 2 words.
> 
> *FINAAAAAAAL FLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASH!!!!!*



2 more words:

*AEGIS SHIELD*.

Read the scans I posted.

He'll be dead before he reaches the "Fi" part.


----------



## Id (Oct 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> 2 more words:
> 
> *AEGIS SHIELD*.
> 
> ...



In other words?.?INFORM YOURSELF FOOL?S?!!! >_<


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Oct 27, 2006)

> So it hits and then just creates a small crater, and just disappears?


No, it changes form. After the fighter has directed the destructive energy at the target, he rleases the ki, and it reverts to a non-lethal form. It remains and gets absorbed by other living organisms.


----------



## Vicious (Oct 27, 2006)

Kazuma the Shell Bullet said:


> So? doesnt make it fact. Ive seen polls where people think the Narutoverse could beat the OPverse but that isnt true now is it?


i seen polls where ppl think that DBZverse could beat Tenchi muyo verse but that isnt true now is it?


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:


> No, it changes form. After the fighter has directed the destructive energy at the target, he rleases the ki, and it reverts to a non-lethal form. It remains and gets absorbed by other living organisms.



And this "non - lethal form" makes it completely invisible and undetectable, and powers up anything around it with planet - busting amounts of energy?


----------



## Gunners (Oct 27, 2006)

> The obvious explanation is that the energy is transformed into heat, kinetic energy, light, etc. and does most of its work deforming the landscape, which most of the time is nowhere near planet - busting.



So the guy who the attack is launched at won't absorb the heat energy? I am not understanding hwo this concludes them not using planet busting attacts and concentrating it, a lot of it is done deforming the actual energy and some goes as heat into the enemy.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

gunners said:


> So the guy who the attack is launched at won't absorb the heat energy? I am not understanding hwo this concludes them not using planet busting attacts and concentrating it, a lot of it is done deforming the actual energy and some goes as heat into the enemy.



The energy damages the enemy by either ripping their body apart, or heating it, or disintegrating it at a cellular level. Many times they can form shields or are just durable enough to prevent this.


----------



## Gunners (Oct 27, 2006)

> The energy damages the enemy by either ripping their body apart, or heating it, or disintegrating it at a cellular level. Many times they can form shields or are just durable enough to prevent this.



So, if they withstand higher level attacks how is this a problem? If there body takes the full attack?


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Oct 27, 2006)

> And this "non - lethal form" makes it completely invisible and undetectable, and powers up anything around it with planet - busting amounts of energy?


Am I not explaining something clearly? I'll try an example:
Let's say I had some 'power' to control all the ambient light around me. Ambient light normally would do nothing destructive. However, thanks to my 'power' I am able to focus all of it into a laser beam. However, the ambient light will only become a laser, and stay a laser, as long as my power is influencing it. As soon as I release my control over it, it reverts to harmless ambient light.

Similarly, ki would be invisible an undetectible to normal humans. DBZ warriors train themselves to be aware of it and thus hone it. Otherwise, the ki would simply be radiated by living things and absorbed by living things, just like ambient light may be reflected and absorbed, even if it's bright.


----------



## Gooba (Oct 27, 2006)

Energy attacks are useless, thanks to her being able to block anything ever.  Physical attacks are useless because Superman's punch that only stunned her for a few seconds was more powerful than anything we have seen.  Anyone who thinks she is just a crappy Superman please look at that fight between them, she manhandles him for a few seconds before flying off, showing she is at least pretty damn close.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

gunners said:


> So, if they withstand higher level attacks how is this a problem? If there body takes the full attack?



It doesn't. Or else the attack would just seem to disappear as soon as it hit them.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:


> Am I not explaining something clearly? I'll try an example:
> Let's say I had some 'power' to control all the ambient light around me. Ambient light normally would do nothing destructive. However, thanks to my 'power' I am able to focus all of it into a laser beam. However, the ambient light will only become a laser, and stay a laser, as long as my power is influencing it. As soon as I release my control over it, it reverts to harmless ambient light.
> 
> Similarly, ki would be invisible an undetectible to normal humans. DBZ warriors train themselves to be aware of it and thus hone it. Otherwise, the ki would simply be radiated by living things and absorbed by living things, just like ambient light may be reflected and absorbed, even if it's bright.



So they're routinely throwing around planet - destroying blasts, that only leave large craters, then the rest of the ki just disappears and is absorbed by random living things in the area, giving any random plants or groundhogs in the area planet - shattering energy?

Sorry, that makes hardly any sense at all.

Do you have any evidence for this whatsoever?


----------



## Renegade (Oct 27, 2006)

Vegeta definitely takes this.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

Renegade said:


> Vegeta definitely takes this.



Proof? Evidence? Reasoning? Anything?


----------



## Ryuji Yamazaki (Oct 27, 2006)

Renegade said:


> Vegeta definitely takes this.



It end with sex.


----------



## Renegade (Oct 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Proof? Evidence? Reasoning? Anything?


I've seen nothing of Wonder Woman that leads me to believe she could defeat Vegeta.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

Renegade said:


> I've seen nothing of Wonder Woman that sways me to believe she could defeat Vegeta.



Try reading the scans posted in this very thread.

She's stronger, faster, tougher, and has weapons that could easily kill him.


----------



## shadowz (Oct 27, 2006)

Well u really cant compare them because in DC universe they change character background and powers very frequently I think WonderWoman's past has changed on many occasions. There is only one mange with DBZ characters and it follows only one story line. DC has over 100 different universes each completely different from each other. So in order to compare them you would have to take the attributes that are most commonly agreed upon by the many writers of WonderWoman Comics. Which from my source,  seem to be

Strength and Stamina - Same as that of the earth her skin can be pentrated by bullets and arrows
Speed - as fast as hermes, since in greek times no one even knew about the speed of light she cant possiby be that fast. probably more around supersonic

Now lets look at vegeta
Strength and  Stamina - bullets couldn't hurt him at the beggining of DBZ can blow up planets
Speed - can keep up with Goku which travels faster than the speed of light (Instant transmission - meaning time does not elapse when he moves. light travels at around 300,000 m/s )

As you can clearly see she is nowhere near Vegeta level in a fight.

However there are variations of wonderwoman that could compete with Vegeta but for the most part she cant.


----------



## Thanatos (Oct 27, 2006)

Kazuma the Shell Bullet said:


> So? doesnt make it fact. Ive seen polls where people think the Narutoverse could beat the OPverse but that isnt true now is it?



Well, I just figured I should point out the only solid evidence we have so far. Vegeta doesn't live in the DC (I think) universe, does he now? Neither does wonderwoman live in the DBverse (unless she's really chichi in disguise ).

That is another piece of evidence. And I don't remember who mentioned something about Master Roshi being able to destroy the moon, but King Piccolo did destroy the moon, and he was nowhere near as powerful as Vegeta when he *first* arrived (let alone a SS4 at the end of the series).

EDIT: I agree with shadowz .


----------



## Ryuji Yamazaki (Oct 27, 2006)

shadowz said:


> seem to be


She is a deity.  

WW can takes him...


----------



## Renegade (Oct 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Try reading the scans posted in this very thread.
> 
> She's stronger, faster, tougher, and has weapons that could easily kill him.


What's her greatest feat ever?


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

shadowz said:


> Well u really cant compare them because in DC universe they change character background and powers very frequently I think WonderWoman's past has changed on many occasions. There is only one mange with DBZ characters and it follows only one story line. DC has over 100 different universes each completely different from each other. So in order to compare them you would have to take the attributes that are most commonly agreed upon by the many writers of WonderWoman Comics. Which from my source,  seem to be
> 
> Strength and Stamina - Same as that of the earth her skin can be pentrated by bullets and arrows



Except that's a specific weakness. Piercing damage affects her when other kinds do not.



> Speed - as fast as hermes, since in greek times no one even knew about the speed of light she cant possiby be that fast. probably more around supersonic



Bullshit. I already posted scans of her moving lightspeed.



> Now lets look at vegeta
> Strength and  Stamina - bullets couldn't hurt him at the beggining of DBZ can blow up planets



If you take his word at face value.




> Speed - can keep up with Goku which travels faster than the speed of light (Instant transmission - meaning time does not elapse when he moves. light travels at around 300,000 m/s )



Um, no, Vegeta doesn't know IT, and he certainly can't keep up with it.



> As you can clearly see she is nowhere near Vegeta level in a fight.



Wrong. Try actually paying attention for once.



> However there are variations of wonderwoman that could compete with Vegeta but for the most part she cant.



Post - Crisis Wonder Woman (current version excluding OYL where there is not enough info) wins. You're just making stupid assumptions.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

Renegade said:


> What's her greatest feat ever?



Hard to say, she's got a lot.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Oct 27, 2006)

> Speed - can keep up with Goku which travels faster than the speed of light (Instant transmission - meaning time does not elapse when he moves. light travels at around 300,000 m/s )



Where is your proof that Vegeta has kept up with Goku while he was TELEPORTING? I dont recall that.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

Mortalis said:


> Well, I just figured I should point out the only solid evidence we have so far. Vegeta doesn't live in the DC (I think) universe, does he now? Neither does wonderwoman live in the DBverse (unless she's really chichi in disguise ).
> 
> That is another piece of evidence. And I don't remember who mentioned something about Master Roshi being able to destroy the moon, but King Piccolo did destroy the moon, and he was nowhere near as powerful as Vegeta when he *first* arrived (let alone a SS4 at the end of the series).
> 
> EDIT: I agree with shadowz .



Um, no, it was Picollo Jr. (the Picollo we're most familiar with) that destroyed the moon, not Picollo Daimaoh.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

No, no idea.

And Picollo destroyed the moon in DBZ, not in DB.


----------



## Gooba (Oct 27, 2006)

shadowz said:


> Speed - as fast as hermes, since in greek times no one even knew about the speed of light she cant possiby be that fast.


Funny story, before Issac Newton discovered gravity everything floated all over the place.


----------



## Thanatos (Oct 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> No, no idea.
> 
> And Picollo destroyed the moon in DBZ, not in DB.



Are you sure about that? Because I remember when Piccolo was training Gohan (the first time), one of the Saiyan pods (possibly Raditz's) displayed a hologram of the moon. Piccolo then has a flashback to an earlier time (what I thought was DB) with him destroying the moon.

In the anime, DBZ starts from Raditz arrival. Is it different in the manga (or even in the Jap version)?



Gooba said:


> Funny story, before Issac Newton discovered gravity everything floated all over the place.



I'd have loved to live back then. All though I'm sure that the Olympics would have been a bit screwed up .



Suzumebachi said:


> Where is your proof that Vegeta has kept up with Goku while he was TELEPORTING? I dont recall that.



Neither, and Vegeta's my favourite character.


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Oct 27, 2006)

EM said:
			
		

> So they're routinely throwing around planet - destroying blasts, that only leave large craters, then the rest of the ki just disappears and is absorbed by random living things in the area, giving any random plants or groundhogs in the area planet - shattering energy?
> 
> Sorry, that makes hardly any sense at all.
> 
> Do you have any evidence for this whatsoever?


Did I say that a ground hog absorbs an entire quota of planet busting energy? Does your body absorb all the energy from ambient light in the room at once? Did I say that the living organisms in the immediate area absorb it? Did I say that they absorb it all at once? How much planet energy is actually left after hitting the target if it was meant to be focused on the target anyway? 

The concept I'm putting forward is not that hard to understand or rationalize.


----------



## Violent Man (Oct 27, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:


> Did I say that a ground hog absorbs an entire quota of planet busting energy? Does your body absorb all the energy from ambient light in the room at once? Did I say that the living organisms in the immediate area absorb it? Did I say that they absorb it all at once? How much planet energy is actually left after hitting the target if it was meant to be focused on the target anyway?
> 
> The concept I'm putting forward is not that hard to understand or rationalize.



Don't worry they know it but they dont want to admit it.


----------



## shadowz (Oct 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Except that's a specific weakness. Piercing damage affects her when other kinds do not.


Hey I just pointing out the she can be hurt by arrows and Vegeta pre super saiyan could take bullets head on and not even flinch.




Endless Mike said:


> Bullshit. I already posted scans of her moving lightspeed.


And as I said before I refuted her speed, Wonder Woman has been rewritten with many different background, in addition to existing in different dimensions and having more than one WonderWoman(Donna Troy when Dianna retires). Because of that according to the different authors she has different attributes. My analysis of her speed comes from what the majority of authors wrote as her attributes. Since the wikipedia articles examines wonderwoman throughout all versions that existed rather than just one iteration.  



Endless Mike said:


> If you take his word at face value.


Well If u recall the Saiyan Saga when he was fighting goku, Vegeta got  desparate and was going to blow up the earth with his galick gun. It was on path til goku overcame it with his KaiokenX4 Kamehameha(at least that how I remember it, I'll try and find some proof)




Endless Mike said:


> Um, no, Vegeta doesn't know IT, and he certainly can't keep up with it.



This was just an assumption since Majin Vegeta was on par with Goku which was a battle that occured after goku knew IT.



Endless Mike said:


> Wrong. Try actually paying attention for once.


This was just an analysis of the comparisons of strength from each character  I compiled in my earlier thread. Not a comment off another post where attention was needed.

QUOTE=Endless Mike;5785088]
Post - Crisis Wonder Woman (current version excluding OYL where there is not enough info) wins. You're just making stupid assumptions.[/QUOTE]
Earth-Two or Earth-One Wonder Woman.
 and was it Infinite Crisis or Crisis of Infinite Earths Wonder Women. 



Gooba said:


> Funny story, before Issac Newton discovered gravity everything floated all over the place.


 I was just referring to since the ancient greeks(the ones who wrote about hermes) didn't know how fast light was, she couldn't be that fast. To further demonstrate this point I looked up hermes and it looks as though his speed is compared to wind.
under "pictures"

On another point, to fairly compare the two characters, the version that was developed by the original creator of the character should be used which for wonder woman that version would be that one created by William Moulton Marston. and for Vegita it would be Akira Toriyama.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:


> Did I say that a ground hog absorbs an entire quota of planet busting energy? Does your body absorb all the energy from ambient light in the room at once? Did I say that the living organisms in the immediate area absorb it? Did I say that they absorb it all at once? How much planet energy is actually left after hitting the target if it was meant to be focused on the target anyway?
> 
> The concept I'm putting forward is not that hard to understand or rationalize.



Then where does it go?

I think you're having trouble understanding the sheer magnitude of energy you're talking about.


----------



## Gunners (Oct 27, 2006)

Can wonder woman get hurt by bullets and arrows?


----------



## Violent Man (Oct 27, 2006)

shadowz said:


> Hey I just pointing out the she can be hurt by arrows and Vegeta pre super saiyan could take bullets head on and not even flinch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Earth-Two or Earth-One Wonder Woman.
> and was it Infinite Crisis or Crisis of Infinite Earths Wonder Women.
> 
> 
> ...



Holy crap a smart and respectable poster!!  :amazed  We dont take kindly to your type around here.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

shadowz said:


> Hey I just pointing out the she can be hurt by arrows and Vegeta pre super saiyan could take bullets head on and not even flinch.



Which is misleading because it's Wonder Woman's weakness.

She could take a nuke point - blank without a scratch yet be hurt by a bullet. Yes, it's stupid, but that's the way it works.



> And as I said before I refuted her speed, Wonder Woman has been rewritten with many different background, in addition to existing in different dimensions and having more than one WonderWoman(Donna Troy when Dianna retires). Because of that according to the different authors she has different attributes. My analysis of her speed comes from what the majority of authors wrote as her attributes. Since the wikipedia articles examines wonderwoman throughout all versions that existed rather than just one iteration.



Bullshit. These scans are post - Crisis, in - continuity for the version we're using. All you said is that "The article said she has the speed of Hermes, who is a Greek god, and ancient Greeks didn't know the speed of light, so therefore she is only at the speed of sound". However the hell that is supposed to make sense I don't see at all.

I posted canon scans of her moving at lightspeed, deal with it.



> Well If u recall the Saiyan Saga when he was fighting goku, Vegeta got  desparate and was going to blow up the earth with his galick gun. It was on path til goku overcame it with his KaiokenX4 Kamehameha(at least that how I remember it, I'll try and find some proof)



Oh, no, I'm not denying that's what happened. It's just that Vegeta wasn't quite.... right in the head when he said that.



> This was just an assumption since Majin Vegeta was on par with Goku which was a battle that occured after goku knew IT.



That's idiotic. Goku didn't even use IT in that battle.



> This was just an analysis of the comparisons of strength from each character  I compiled in my earlier thread. Not a comment off another post where attention was needed.



You made a bunch of stupid claims and ignored evidence that was presented earlier.



> Earth-Two or Earth-One Wonder Woman.
> and was it Infinite Crisis or Crisis of Infinite Earths Wonder Women.



When we talk about DC characters in the OBD, unless otherwise specified it means the version of that character after COIE and before IC (since there's not enough info on their capabilities after IC and before COIE is out of continuity). In this period there was no Earth - 1 or Earth - 2, just one Earth.




> I was just referring to since the ancient greeks(the ones who wrote about hermes) didn't know how fast light was, she couldn't be that fast. To further demonstrate this point I looked up hermes and it looks as though his speed is compared to wind.
> under "pictures"
> 
> On another point, to fairly compare the two characters, the version that was developed by the original creator of the character should be used which for wonder woman that version would be that one created by William Moulton Marston. and for Vegita it would be Akira Toriyama.



That's idiotic.

First of all, the Greek gods in the comic books are actual beings with actual magical powers, that can do things like move faster than light. They understand about lightspeed where the ancient Greeks (in the comics) that used to worship them didn't. I've shown scans of Diana moving at lightspeed. It's canon. Get over it.

Also we're using the most recent canon version for which we have sufficient information. That's the Post - Crisis, Pre - IC version. Comic book characters are often written by tons of different authors, all in the same canon.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

berwyn said:


> Holy crap a smart and respectable poster!!  :amazed  We dont take kindly to your type around here.



How is that heaping mound of logical fallacies 'respectable' or 'smart'?


----------



## shadowz (Oct 27, 2006)

this is the best that I could come up with
Concrete Angel


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

shadowz said:


> this is the best that I could come up with
> Concrete Angel



And.....?

There's nothing there that anyone here hasn't seen before.

Although I will admit that that was my favorite fight in the whole series.


----------



## Gunners (Oct 27, 2006)

> How is that heaping mound of logical fallacies 'respectable' or 'smart'?



Because he isn't calling anyone an idiot or loosing his temper, and he is actually given reasons for his views.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

gunners said:


> Because he isn't calling anyone an idiot or loosing his temper, and he is actually given reasons for his views.



Fallacious and wrong reasons that are contradicted by canon.


----------



## Gooba (Oct 27, 2006)

She has also kept up with Flash in a race, and she has defeated Zoom, who is about as fast as Flash.  She is consistantly shown to be that fast, not just one outlier.


----------



## Violent Man (Oct 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> How is that heaping mound of logical fallacies 'respectable' or 'smart'?



Wow your acting like an idiot. Calm down. I know it's hard for you to believe but comic characters sometimes lose to characters from DBZ. I know it burns you up since comics are your life but you know these things happen.


----------



## Gunners (Oct 27, 2006)

> She has also kept up with Flash in a race, and she has defeated Zoom, who is about as fast as Flash. She is consistantly shown to be that fast, not just one outlier.



The zoom incident involving Zoom I can not understand it, when Zoom hit his peak they travelled the earth so many times it showed them passing Superman but he couldn't see them. Wonderwoman shouldn't be able to beat that zoom unless she has god like speed which I don't think she has.


----------



## Shiron (Oct 27, 2006)

berwyn said:


> Wow your acting like an idiot. Calm down. I know it's hard for you to believe but comic characters sometimes lose to characters from DBZ. I know it burns you up since comics are your life but you know these things happen.


Hmm, let's try this:

Wow, you're acting like an idiot. Calm down. I know it's hard for you to believe, but DBZ characters sometimes lose to characters for comics. I know it burns you up since DBZ is your life but you know these things happen.

Just as much of a basis (since Endless Mike's life isn't just comics and I'm sure your's isn't just DBZ), doesn't counter anything, and doesn't prove anything. Yup, great way to make a point.

(Sorry, but this post of your's just ticked me off. If all you're going to do is antagonize Endless Mike, and not bother to actually argue or address any of his points and just say he's wrong "because I say so", then please leave.)


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

berwyn said:


> Wow your acting like an idiot. Calm down. I know it's hard for you to believe but comic characters sometimes lose to characters from DBZ. I know it burns you up since comics are your life but you know these things happen.



Appeal to motive much?

He didn't present one good argument at all, and you're praising him for it.



gunners said:


> The zoom incident involving Zoom I can not understand it, when Zoom hit his peak they travelled the earth so many times it showed them passing Superman but he couldn't see them. Wonderwoman shouldn't be able to beat that zoom unless she has god like speed which I don't think she has.



She does have the speed of the gods....

Also keep in mind that Superman is not always moving at full speed all the time.


----------



## Gunners (Oct 27, 2006)

> She does have the speed of the gods....
> 
> Also keep in mind that Superman is not always moving at full speed all the time.



The plane which Flash and Zoom were on was above normal, it was like time stopped. If Wonder woman moves at this speed I think she would win, if she moved at this speed I think she would beat Superman it far surpasses light.

With the Justice league now they speak of requiring a new speedster, if she can move that fast why is it necissary?


----------



## Blue (Oct 27, 2006)

As much as I hate to say it (in general, not in this instance) Mike is right. 

Extremely right.

As in no-contest-there-is-no-discussion-here-young-master-Konohamaru.


----------



## Gooba (Oct 27, 2006)

gunners said:


> The zoom incident involving Zoom I can not understand it, when Zoom hit his peak they travelled the earth so many times it showed them passing Superman but he couldn't see them. Wonderwoman shouldn't be able to beat that zoom unless she has god like speed which I don't think she has.


I agree, she can't beat Zoom unless she has god like speed.  Lucky for her, she does, as all our scans show.  She even beat Flash while blindfolded.




*Spoiler*: _vs Zoom_ 



1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

gunners said:


> The plane which Flash and Zoom were on was above normal, it was like time stopped. If Wonder woman moves at this speed I think she would win, if she moved at this speed I think she would beat Superman it far surpasses light.
> 
> With the Justice league now they speak of requiring a new speedster, if she can move that fast why is it necissary?



Because they need a dedicated Speedster.

Almost all DC top - tiers are speedsters, Superman is, Wonder Woman is, Captain Marvel and Black Adam are, Green Lanterns are, Martian Manhunter is, probably the whole reason Flash has all those crazy Speedforce powers is because without them he would be redundant.


----------



## ez (Oct 27, 2006)

how the hell is vegeta winning in teh polls? o_O


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

ezxx said:


> how the hell is vegeta winning in teh polls? o_O



I'll give you three guesses, and they all rhyme with "Bantoys"


----------



## ~Shin~ (Oct 27, 2006)

Pls stop with these DBZ vs. comics battles 
I'm really hating to see DBZ lose every matchup these days


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## blacklusterseph004 (Oct 27, 2006)

> Then where does it go?
> 
> I think you're having trouble understanding the sheer magnitude of energy you're talking about.


It persists until it's absorbed. Apart from DBZ warriors molding ki into a destructive form, it doesn't influence the real world in any way. After a planet destroying attack misses but is disengaged, the ki wouldn't inluence the real world regardless of it's relative concentration. Even so it seems to dissapte extremely quickly. This seems to be confirmed by the fact that a DBZ character powering up can break up their surroundings as they focus their ki around themselves, but the moment that the stop powering up, all damage to the environment immediately stops, which would indicate that even a massive concentration of ki dissapates (or should I say diffuses) extremely quickly. (even faster than it can be gathered)


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:


> It persists until it's absorbed. Apart from DBZ warriors molding ki into a destructive form, it doesn't influence the real world in any way.



Um, what? 

Do you even read/watch DBZ?

In the DBU, ki is life energy. It obviously influences the world because it's what allows living beings to live. I would think enough of it to destroy a planet swarming all over the area would be somewhat disruptive to this proces....



> After a planet destroying attack misses but is disengaged



Disengaged? So you're saying if they miss they consciously stop their attack from exploding somehow? Despite the fact many villains are trying to destroy the planet anyway, and many times they don't even know that their attack missed until they see their enemy again?



> the ki wouldn't inluence the real world regardless of it's relative concentration. Even so it seems to dissapte extremely quickly. This seems to be confirmed by the fact that a DBZ character powering up can break up their surroundings as they focus their ki around themselves, but the moment that the stop powering up, all damage to the environment immediately stops, which would indicate that even a massive concentration of ki dissapates (or should I say diffuses) extremely quickly. (even faster than it can be gathered)



I always took that to mean that they were drawing ki out from inside themselves, creating a physically disruptive process, but when it was all done it became more stable inside of their bodies and didn't lift and crush rocks around them, but it was still there (released in the form of heat, light, and concussive force).


----------



## Gooba (Oct 27, 2006)

Firemind said:


> Pls stop with these DBZ vs. comics battles
> I'm really hating to see DBZ lose every matchup these days


Go back and read the threads from over a year ago, about half of them were DBZ vs Anime that completely can't handle DBZ.  Sasuke and Naruto vs Goku and Vegeta and stuff like that.

Mike is right about Ki, people can see it.  Look at spectators reacts to ki blasts during their fights.  They can see them.


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## Shiron (Oct 27, 2006)

Gooba said:


> Go back and read the threads from over a year ago, about half of them were DBZ vs Anime that completely can't handle DBZ.  Sasuke and Naruto vs Goku and Vegeta and stuff like that.


Ugh, don't remind me (and those threads still get made every now and then)... The inverse really can be just as bad. At least I'm gaining some knowledge about Wonder Woman from this thread, that I didn't have previous to it.


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## blacklusterseph004 (Oct 27, 2006)

> Um, what?
> 
> Do you even read/watch DBZ?
> 
> In the DBU, ki is life energy. It obviously influences the world because it's what allows living beings to live. I would think enough of it to destroy a planet swarming all over the area would be somewhat disruptive to this proces....


Except it's not. Living beings have their own ki and they would radiate as well as absorb trace amounts. You seem to think that just because it's there they have to absorb it, or that it's going to disrupt their bodily functions somehow. Gohan went level 2 in a crowded stadium and though people were shocked/amazed nobody was dropping dead or anything. This is dbz ki, not Bleach reiatsu, which does have the effect you're thinking of.



> Disengaged? So you're saying if they miss they consciously stop their attack from exploding somehow? Despite the fact many villains are trying to destroy the planet anyway, and many times they don't even know that their attack missed until they see their enemy again?


That's what I am saying. They know where the target is, so they know up to where to maintain the ki's destructive force. And in the cases where the villian was going for the planet instead of the hero, the hero had to do something pretty quick to stop the attack. 



> I always took that to mean that they were drawing ki out from inside themselves, creating a physically disruptive process, but when it was all done it became more stable inside of their bodies and didn't lift and crush rocks around them, but it was still there (released in the form of heat, light, and concussive force).


How else could they influence the world around them in that particular way? As they powerup, they draw the ki from their centres and a massive concentration of it builds up on and around them causing the destruction. Once they've drawn the power out, they focus it around themselves, and the effect of the high ki concetration becomes localized around their bodies in the form of an aura.


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## Gooba (Oct 27, 2006)

Shiron said:


> Ugh, don't remind me (and those threads still get made every now and then)... The inverse really can be just as bad. At least I'm gaining some knowledge about Wonder Woman from this thread, that I didn't have previous to it.


Future Konoha

That has a ton of feats from here, and it is where I got most of the scans I used.


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## Kuya (Oct 27, 2006)

quick question. where you guys get all these scans? are they real scans from ur own comics or is there a sight where i can see some???


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## Id (Oct 27, 2006)

Firemind said:


> Pls stop with these DBZ vs. comics battles
> I'm really hating to see DBZ lose every matchup these days



lol...I think Both DBZ and Comics should chose thier matches more carefully.


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## korican04 (Oct 28, 2006)

As much as i love reading these dbz vs comics battles, this has been done before, bring up an old thread or something. 

Anyways, i really disagree with the whole zoom vs diana fight interms of the speed thing. Flash needed to absorb the speed of a lot of the speedsters to keep up. And in that time they fought and traveled the world dozens of times in less than a second. Even if superman was giong his top speed he wouldn't be able to keep up with zoom and flash. They were fighting in between time. 

Anyways she was able to take hits from zoom that were equivalent to flashes IMP's. They made her travel across the world. I don't think i can recall an instance when someone in dbz got hit and went flying across to the other side of the world. 10's of miles yeah, but not as far as across the planet, and definitely not from the sun to the earth. WW is freakin tough, vegeta is going to have a hard ass time knocking her out.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 28, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:


> Except it's not. Living beings have their own ki and they would radiate as well as absorb trace amounts. You seem to think that just because it's there they have to absorb it, or that it's going to disrupt their bodily functions somehow. Gohan went level 2 in a crowded stadium and though people were shocked/amazed nobody was dropping dead or anything. This is dbz ki, not Bleach reiatsu, which does have the effect you're thinking of.



You claimed earlier that it would be released and absorbed into other living beings.....



> That's what I am saying. They know where the target is, so they know up to where to maintain the ki's destructive force. And in the cases where the villian was going for the planet instead of the hero, the hero had to do something pretty quick to stop the attack.



And your evidence for this is....?

Freiza was trying to destroy the planet the whole time, yet his random blasts that missed created small craters as ever.

Not to mention there are tons of times when they fire a blast and they think it hit or even killed their enemy but they realize it didn't and their enemy then attacks them from behind and they're like "I thought I killed you!"

Basically they don't even know if they hit the target or not unless they get a clear visual of it. Which doesn't always happen.



> How else could they influence the world around them in that particular way? As they powerup, they draw the ki from their centres and a massive concentration of it builds up on and around them causing the destruction. Once they've drawn the power out, they focus it around themselves, and the effect of the high ki concetration becomes localized around their bodies in the form of an aura.



Isn't that what I said?


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 28, 2006)

korican04 said:


> As much as i love reading these dbz vs comics battles, this has been done before, bring up an old thread or something.
> 
> Anyways, i really disagree with the whole zoom vs diana fight interms of the speed thing. Flash needed to absorb the speed of a lot of the speedsters to keep up. And in that time they fought and traveled the world dozens of times in less than a second. Even if superman was giong his top speed he wouldn't be able to keep up with zoom and flash. They were fighting in between time.



Flash hadn't absorbed any speed, he was just using the speed formula (which he can use himself).

And Superman wouldn't have been able to keep up with them, but he wouldn't have been frozen in comparison to them either. 



> Anyways she was able to take hits from zoom that were equivalent to flashes IMP's. They made her travel across the world. I don't think i can recall an instance when someone in dbz got hit and went flying across to the other side of the world. 10's of miles yeah, but not as far as across the planet, and definitely not from the sun to the earth. WW is freakin tough, vegeta is going to have a hard ass time knocking her out.



Not to mention when Superman punched her almost all the way from the sun to the earth at FTL speed.


----------



## Id (Oct 28, 2006)

WW is weaker then Supes by a mere fraction. And we all know Superman>>>>>>>Goku>>>>Vegita.
So just give up and give the match to WW, she has feats to back up her claims anyway.


----------



## Thanatos (Oct 28, 2006)

Id said:


> WW is weaker then Supes by a mere fraction. And we all know Superman>>>>>>>Goku>>>>Vegita.
> So just give up and give the match to WW, she has feats to back up her claims anyway.



I'd much rather just leave it to the voters .

BTW, who's the character in your avatar?


----------



## Id (Oct 28, 2006)

Mortalis said:


> I'd much rather just leave it to the voters .
> 
> BTW, who's the character in your avatar?



Id from the game Xenogears.


----------



## shadowz (Oct 28, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Which is misleading because it's Wonder Woman's weakness.
> 
> She could take a nuke point - blank without a scratch yet be hurt by a bullet. Yes, it's stupid, but that's the way it works.



I dont know about u but I'd say thats a pretty big weakness. I could say something about how Vegeta could blast zillions of tiny ki beams resembling bullets at Wonder Woman but you'd probably respond with that she so fast that she could reflect them all. 
I think we also gone off topic since the question was whether present day WonderWoman or End of DBZ Vegita would win in a fight. since we do not know the author of which present day WonderWoman Kuya was talking about then this can not be decided. 

And if were debating a version of Wonderwoman different from that of the original creators version then I resign my position in this debate. A debate over such a matter would be like judging Naruto on its fillers episodes. Since u know its not the original creator u know not to expect the characters to act and have the same traits as what the creator intended.

And with that I go to sleep because its way too late.


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## Gooba (Oct 28, 2006)

shadowz said:


> I dont know about u but I'd say thats a pretty big weakness. I could say something about how Vegeta could blast zillions of tiny ki beams resembling bullets at Wonder Woman but you'd probably respond with that she so fast that she could reflect them all.
> I think we also gone off topic since the question was whether present day WonderWoman or End of DBZ Vegita would win in a fight. since we do not know the author of which present day WonderWoman Kuya was talking about then this can not be decided.
> 
> And if were debating a version of Wonderwoman different from that of the original creators version then I resign my position in this debate. A debate over such a matter would be like judging Naruto on its fillers episodes. Since u know its not the original creator u know not to expect the characters to act and have the same traits as what the creator intended.
> ...


No, filler is not cannon, all comics, by all the authors are.  There is a big difference between comics and manga that way.  Think of the publisher like the original author.  All WW by DC is cannon, just like all Naruto by Kishi is.

Also, she consistantly blocks tons of bullets, so she could do the same with Vegeta.  Not that he would know it is her weakness.


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Oct 28, 2006)

EM said:
			
		

> You claimed earlier that it would be released and absorbed into other living beings.....


Yes.



> And your evidence for this is....?
> 
> Freiza was trying to destroy the planet the whole time, yet his random blasts that missed created small craters as ever.
> 
> ...


Whether or not they hit the target doesn't matter. They have an idea where the target is and they only sustain the attack up to that general point. When you want to punch someone, you have an idea where their head is, and you adjust your arm movement to let the punch's power peak at the target area. You don't sustain the force of the punch past the point where you are expecting to hit the target, because that is a waste of energy. Whether you hit the target or not, you wouldn't maintain the full force to drive the punch beyond where you think you're gong to hit.



> Isn't that what I said?


It didn't seem like it, though not that that explaination helped my case. Consider then cases where powerups are suddenly interupted. When super vegito fought super buu, and super buu lost control and started releasing enough ki to tear dimensions apart. Super buu was gathering a huge amount of ki around himself in an uncontrolled manner. The moment that vegito struck him, and his control of the ki was interupted, the dimension destroying effect ceased immediately.

In the hyperbolic time chamber, when vegeta trained with trunks, vegeta was releasing such massive amounts of ki that the entire dimension seemed to be on fire. He stopped powering up when he slapped trunks, and the burning effect ceased immediately.

In the cases with Gohan and future Trunk's failed saiyan transformations, they both had gathered massive amounts of ki to attempt the transformation, but when they failed, all that ki dissapated almost instantly.

When a super saiyan is defeated in one blow, causing them to immediately revert to a normal state we see the same thing. All the ki gathered around the ssj, immediately dissapates.


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## Perfect Moron (Oct 28, 2006)

shadowz said:


> I think we also gone off topic since the question was whether present day WonderWoman or End of DBZ Vegita would win in a fight. since we do not know the author of which present day WonderWoman Kuya was talking about then this can not be decided.
> 
> And if were debating a version of Wonderwoman different from that of the original creators version then I resign my position in this debate. A debate over such a matter would be like judging Naruto on its fillers episodes. Since u know its not the original creator u know not to expect the characters to act and have the same traits as what the creator intended.
> 
> And with that I go to sleep because its way too late.



That's an awful analogy. Naruto is originally manga, filler deviates from the original storyline. For comics, authors always change, and that doesn't mean they stop being canon. The character power's are still consistent (try looking at the scans, will you?). And of course it's not the original creator's version, present day WW is post Crisis. The feats posted for her are canon, deal with it.


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## Narutobeatsluffyeasy (Oct 28, 2006)

VEGETA would PWN wonder woman because he can shoot blasts that can destroy the world there's no chance she could live that!!


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## earthshine (Oct 28, 2006)

> Of course he can. Ki in DBZ is life force. Without ki, he'd be dead. He uses it every time he moves, or breathes, or anything.




not in DBZ. by use ki, I mean fly and focus it into a weapon. 








> In the canon manga, it was only stated that Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta, never explained or shown how. You're talking about a filler.
> 
> Besides, I never denied that Vegeta could destroy a planet by the end of DBZ.





how else would he do it? magic?






> With logical, measurable, canon evidence.




to be ohnest, comic "cannon" is the same as anime filler. they have tons of diffrient writers, and their power seems to fluctuate more than should be possible.







> Because she doesn't react at that speed all the time?
> 
> Same thing with Superman and everyone else who can move super fast.




yes. and that is utterly fucking retarded, and a complete error on the writers part.


how can you slow down the speed you think at? that makes absolutly no fucking sense.



> And, of course, you're going to provide canon evidence of this....




you ever read or watch any? EVERY time a person gets a good bit stronger than somebody else, they can dissapear from their sight. they get THAT much faster.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 28, 2006)

shadowz said:


> I dont know about u but I'd say thats a pretty big weakness. I could say something about how Vegeta could blast zillions of tiny ki beams resembling bullets at Wonder Woman but you'd probably respond with that she so fast that she could reflect them all.



No, I would say:

1. Vegeta doesn't know about her weakness.

2. Concentrated/sharp energy attacks don't seem to have the same effect as concentrated/sharp physical attacks. Example: Superman's heat vision, which is very "sharp" (concentrated into tiny beams less than a centimeter wide) only scorched her cheek, and he was fighting seriously because he was under an illusion to think she was Doomsday at the time.





> I think we also gone off topic since the question was whether present day WonderWoman or End of DBZ Vegita would win in a fight. since we do not know the author of which present day WonderWoman Kuya was talking about then this can not be decided.
> 
> And if were debating a version of Wonderwoman different from that of the original creators version then I resign my position in this debate. A debate over such a matter would be like judging Naruto on its fillers episodes. Since u know its not the original creator u know not to expect the characters to act and have the same traits as what the creator intended.
> 
> And with that I go to sleep because its way too late.



No, we use the newest canon version that we have sufficient information about.


----------



## Orion (Oct 28, 2006)

how is this even being debated it has been proven with scans that ww can move at lightspeed,and no scans have proven that vegeta can so therefore she speedblitzes and beats the shit out of him the end.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 28, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:


> Yes.



So you're saying that planet - cracking energy is absorbed by random living beings in the area?



> Whether or not they hit the target doesn't matter. They have an idea where the target is and they only sustain the attack up to that general point. When you want to punch someone, you have an idea where their head is, and you adjust your arm movement to let the punch's power peak at the target area. You don't sustain the force of the punch past the point where you are expecting to hit the target, because that is a waste of energy. Whether you hit the target or not, you wouldn't maintain the full force to drive the punch beyond where you think you're gong to hit.



So, according to you, if they think they hit, and they really didn't, then that means that they send some kind of invisible magical beam that travels faster than their own ki, and it targets their own ki precisely, and tells it to transform into a non - reactive state? That seems rather far - fetched. Not to mention that if they do this even when they think they hit their enemy, then they're basically cancelling the attack on the enemy so it doesn't even hurt them.



> It didn't seem like it, though not that that explaination helped my case. Consider then cases where powerups are suddenly interupted. When super vegito fought super buu, and super buu lost control and started releasing enough ki to tear dimensions apart. Super buu was gathering a huge amount of ki around himself in an uncontrolled manner. The moment that vegito struck him, and his control of the ki was interupted, the dimension destroying effect ceased immediately.



That was a filler. Non - canon.



> In the hyperbolic time chamber, when vegeta trained with trunks, vegeta was releasing such massive amounts of ki that the entire dimension seemed to be on fire. He stopped powering up when he slapped trunks, and the burning effect ceased immediately.
> 
> In the cases with Gohan and future Trunk's failed saiyan transformations, they both had gathered massive amounts of ki to attempt the transformation, but when they failed, all that ki dissapated almost instantly.
> 
> When a super saiyan is defeated in one blow, causing them to immediately revert to a normal state we see the same thing. All the ki gathered around the ssj, immediately dissapates.



I would think that's because they're just using it to enhance their capabilities, they haven't actually released it in a form outside of their bodies, so without that concentration it just flows back into them and becomes dormant.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 28, 2006)

Narutobeatsluffyeasy said:


> VEGETA would PWN wonder woman because he can shoot blasts that can destroy the world there's no chance she could live that!!



Aegis shield.

Try again, troll.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 28, 2006)

earthshine said:


> not in DBZ. by use ki, I mean fly and focus it into a weapon.



Then obviously, you haven't been paying attention. Living beings in DBZ use ki every time they do anything, becauase it's their life force. 



> how else would he do it? magic?



Who knows?

He could have had his henchmen help out. He could have bombarded it with multiple blasts instead of just one. The fact is, it was never stated. Considering how, in his stronger form, it was much more difficult for him to destroy Namek than the filler showed him destroying Vegeta in his weakest form, then I highly doubt its accuracy.



> to be ohnest, comic "cannon" is the same as anime filler. they have tons of diffrient writers, and their power seems to fluctuate more than should be possible.



Wrong. Canon is what is declared to be so by the company or franchise holder. Fillers in anime are not canon, comics that are in - continuity are. It doesn't matter that they have different authors, that's the way it works, it's too big of a universe to leave to one author.



> yes. and that is utterly fucking retarded, and a complete error on the writers part.
> 
> 
> how can you slow down the speed you think at? that makes absolutly no fucking sense.



Since no one in real life has super speed, how are you to say it's 'retarded'? It's just one of the corollaries that comes with the power.



> you ever read or watch any? EVERY time a person gets a good bit stronger than somebody else, they can dissapear from their sight. they get THAT much faster.



And how exactly does this prove Goku could "rip Freiza's head off from a hundred miles away before he knew what was happening?"


----------



## shadowz (Oct 28, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> No, I would say:
> 
> 1. Vegeta doesn't know about her weakness.
> 
> 2. Concentrated/sharp energy attacks don't seem to have the same effect as concentrated/sharp physical attacks. Example: Superman's heat vision, which is very "sharp" (concentrated into tiny beams less than a centimeter wide) only scorched her cheek, and he was fighting seriously because he was under an illusion to think she was Doomsday at the time.


I was thinking more on the lines of this kind of shot
Link removed
not this kind of shot





Endless Mike said:


> No, we use the newest canon version that we have sufficient information about.



Well if were talking about the greg rucka rendition of Wonder Woman(that can breathe in space and not implode from the lack of pressure, and can move nearly at the speed of light and can block all types of projectiles) than I would have to concede to the notion that WW can beat Vegita.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 28, 2006)

shadowz said:


> I was thinking more on the lines of this kind of shot
> Link removed
> not this kind of shot



Not loading.

Anyway if it's energy it doesn't really have the same effect as a physically sharp projectile.



> Well if were talking about the greg rucka rendition of Wonder Woman(that can breathe in space and not implode from the lack of pressure, and can move nearly at the speed of light and can block all types of projectiles) than I would have to concede to the notion that WW can beat Vegita.



Considering that's the newest canon version that we know enough about to debate accurately, then that's it.


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## Thanatos (Oct 28, 2006)

There are a bunch of pathetically angry people on this forum. I have now been neg repped merely for pointing out what the votes say. If you're angry at the votes, take it out on them, I'm just a messenger! 

(I also see that shadowz has become a victim merely for disagreeing with people.)

I remember someone mentioning something about WW being able to take a point blank Nuclear explostion, but *not* arrows. Does this have something to do with the "divine" nature of her power? Or is it completely unexplained?

(I'll probably get neg repped for *this* too... then I'll get banned too I suppose... rubarb rubarb rubarb )


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## Violent Man (Oct 28, 2006)

Shiron said:


> Hmm, let's try this:
> 
> Wow, you're acting like an idiot. Calm down. I know it's hard for you to believe, but DBZ characters sometimes lose to characters for comics. I know it burns you up since DBZ is your life but you know these things happen.
> 
> ...



I guess your right. Alright I apologize for being a dick. I just get really defensive when people bash   my favorite show ever. Or when they put them in a match when it's obvious that they'll get owned. It's been in my blood since I was 4 and I'll defend it at all costs .


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## Coconut (Oct 28, 2006)

Vegeta since he has the capabilities to hit a woman ;B


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## Endless Mike (Oct 28, 2006)

Coconut said:


> Vegeta since he has the capabilities to hit a woman ;B



Except he's not going to get the chance.


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## Renegade (Oct 28, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Hard to say, she's got a lot.


Pick one...


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## Endless Mike (Oct 28, 2006)

We could try deflecting the combined power of the Greek pantheon that I posted earlier.


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## Renegade (Oct 29, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> We could try deflecting the combined power of the Greek pantheon that I posted earlier.


How strong is that power? Planet-busting?


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## Kazuma the Shell Bullet (Oct 29, 2006)

Renegade said:


> How strong is that power? Planet-busting?



Galaxy busting at least


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## Renegade (Oct 29, 2006)

And she deflected it with her bracelets?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 29, 2006)

With the mystic forcefield formed by their enchantment.


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## Tazmo? (Oct 29, 2006)

Vegeta would rape her with final flash [/dbztard][/not serious][/avoid neg reps]


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## blacklusterseph004 (Nov 7, 2006)

EM said:
			
		

> So you're saying that planet - cracking energy is absorbed by random living beings in the area?


I already addressed this so I won't repeat myself.



			
				EM said:
			
		

> So, according to you, if they think they hit, and they really didn't, then that means that they send some kind of invisible magical beam that travels faster than their own ki, and it targets their own ki precisely, and tells it to transform into a non - reactive state? That seems rather far - fetched. Not to mention that if they do this even when they think they hit their enemy, then they're basically cancelling the attack on the enemy so it doesn't even hurt them.


Invisible magical beam? I'm amazed at how you managed to interpret that from what I posted. We've seen DBZ characters, stop ki blasts, actively control them, form ki into rings, form ki into spinning discs, form ki into swords, why would disengaging a ki blast take anything more than a thought?



			
				EM said:
			
		

> I would think that's because they're just using it to enhance their capabilities, they haven't actually released it in a form outside of their bodies, so without that concentration it just flows back into them and becomes dormant.


Actually, they had drawn out the ki, because you see the transformation beginning, and the usual enviromental disruption that accompanies a transformation. However, once they drew the ki out, they were unbale to focus and control it, thus the transformation fails. After a failed transformation, they were left completely exhausted, showing that that energy was lost and needs to be recovered.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 7, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:


> I already addressed this so I won't repeat myself.



Okay.....



> Invisible magical beam? I'm amazed at how you managed to interpret that from what I posted. We've seen DBZ characters, stop ki blasts, actively control them, form ki into rings, form ki into spinning discs, form ki into swords, why would disengaging a ki blast take anything more than a thought?



Because you have no evidence they can make ki just turn into a nonreactive state.




> Actually, they had drawn out the ki, because you see the transformation beginning, and the usual enviromental disruption that accompanies a transformation. However, once they drew the ki out, they were unbale to focus and control it, thus the transformation fails. After a failed transformation, they were left completely exhausted, showing that that energy was lost and needs to be recovered.



The only "failed transformations" I know of are from the non - canon history of Trunks special when Trunks first tried to be a SSJ.

Anyway, you're ignoring the many instances when a character attacks their opponent with a ki blast and they think they've killed them, but it turns out that they're still alive. If it requires planet - destroying energy to kill these characters, and all of it has to hit them directly, then why would they do this mysterious 'deactivating' process when they thought they had actually hit their enemy?

Not to mention, if every blast has this kind of power, then how come the characters always make a big deal whenever a supposedly planet - destroying blast is being created? (Examples: Vegeta's Final Flash against Perfect Cell, Goku's Kamehameha against Perfect Cell when he used the IT trick, etc.)


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## blacklusterseph004 (Nov 7, 2006)

> Because you have no evidence they can make ki just turn into a nonreactive state.


I tried to show that ki can either be in a non-lethal dispersed form, or in a focused lethal form. I tried also to show that for ki to remain in a lethal form required focus and concentration on the part of the fighter. I tried to show that, the default form of ki is a non-lethal state. So if a fighter was no longer actively maintaining the lethal state, the ki would revert to it's non-lethal form (similar to to the behaivour of atoms in chemical reactions. The low energy state is prefered to the high energy state). Thus, the fighter doesn't have to do anything to change ki from a dangerous form into a safe one other than release his control over it.



> The only "failed transformations" I know of are from the non - canon history of Trunks special when Trunks first tried to be a SSJ.


Gohan's first attempts in the hyperbolic timechamber to go level 2 were failed transformations.



> Anyway, you're ignoring the many instances when a character attacks their opponent with a ki blast and they think they've killed them, but it turns out that they're still alive. If it requires planet - destroying energy to kill these characters, and all of it has to hit them directly, then why would they do this mysterious 'deactivating' process when they thought they had actually hit their enemy?


I thought my example of a directed punch explained this...



> Not to mention, if every blast has this kind of power, then how come the characters always make a big deal whenever a supposedly planet - destroying blast is being created? (Examples: Vegeta's Final Flash against Perfect Cell, Goku's Kamehameha against Perfect Cell when he used the IT trick, etc.)


I'm not sure what your point is.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 7, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:


> I tried to show that ki can either be in a non-lethal dispersed form, or in a focused lethal form. I tried also to show that for ki to remain in a lethal form required focus and concentration on the part of the fighter. I tried to show that, the default form of ki is a non-lethal state. So if a fighter was no longer actively maintaining the lethal state, the ki would revert to it's non-lethal form (similar to to the behaivour of atoms in chemical reactions. The low energy state is prefered to the high energy state). Thus, the fighter doesn't have to do anything to change ki from a dangerous form into a safe one other than release his control over it.



Except that we often see ki in a dangerous state when a fighter would have no need to keep it that way, such as when it has been deflected and is flying off into space.



> Gohan's first attempts in the hyperbolic timechamber to go level 2 were failed transformations.



I don't remember that in the manga. IIRC he only got to SSJ1 in the chamber in the scenes we saw.



> I thought my example of a directed punch explained this...



Except it doesn't. If a character intends to kill their opponent, and they think they did, they would not suddenly make their ki just turn nonreactive after it hit who they thought was their opponent, since it didn't really hit them, but since they thought it did, they would still be using its power to attempt to kill them.



> I'm not sure what your point is.



Read it again. If they were firing planet - destroying blasts all the time and making them just turn nonreactive, then why would it be specifically pointed out that certain blasts were planet - destroying?

Not to mention when a ki blast hits the ground or something, it often creates an explosion or crater, which would not have happened if it just turned nonreactive.


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## blacklusterseph004 (Nov 7, 2006)

> Except that we often see ki in a dangerous state when a fighter would have no need to keep it that way, such as when it has been deflected and is flying off into space.


I can't recall such an incident. Sounds like it may have happened. I'll venture to say that they are in the minority.



> Except it doesn't. If a character intends to kill their opponent, and they think they did, they would not suddenly make their ki just turn nonreactive after it hit who they thought was their opponent, since it didn't really hit them, but since they thought it did, they would still be using its power to attempt to kill them.


I can't think of an example where your perception of whether or not your attack was successful would be impaired. The way I see it though, if I thought I hit you, why would I still use up energy sustaining the attack? 



> Read it again. If they were firing planet - destroying blasts all the time and making them just turn nonreactive, then why would it be specifically pointed out that certain blasts were planet - destroying?


Saying that a blast is planet destroying simply helps you the reader rank it. Then as readers, we don't need to see the fighters blowing up planets to know they can do it (especially seeing as the good guys would lose if the planet they were fighting on was destroyed)



> Not to mention when a ki blast hits the ground or something, it often creates an explosion or crater, which would not have happened if it just turned nonreactive.


The punch example also explains this somewhat. If you've trained in martial arts, you'll know that the instructor teaches you to aim your punch slightly beyond the target, such that the force is carried into it. If you aimed to direct your punch power simply at the surface of the target, you wouldn't get a very effective impact.


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## ~Shin~ (Nov 7, 2006)

When the ki blast went into space didn't it destroy moons or planets or something?


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## Sasuke` (Nov 7, 2006)

Lol.. wtf.. vegeta pwns her.. no problem.. she only gets her powers from a costume.. imo.. thats shit.. she  loses to a true saiyan.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 7, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:


> I can't recall such an incident. Sounds like it may have happened. I'll venture to say that they are in the minority.



Goku vs. Vegeta. He fires the kamehameha and knocks Vegeta into the atmosphere, Vegeta eventually gets out of the way, but is hurt, and the beam keeps flying into space.

Vegeta vs. Freiza. He fires a blast at Frieza, Frieza deflects it, and it flies into space and explodes.

Goku vs. Freiza. Freiza fires a blast at Goku, he deflects it, and it flies into space.

Vegeta vs. Cell. He fires his final flash, it hits part of Cell (which he later regenerates from), and the rest flies off into space.

Gohan vs. Cell. Gohan overwhelms Cell's attack and it continues to fly into space.

Gohan vs. Cell again. Gohan kills Cell, and the blast keeps flying into space.

I'm sure there are more examples, those are just the ones I recall.



> I can't think of an example where your perception of whether or not your attack was successful would be impaired. The way I see it though, if I thought I hit you, why would I still use up energy sustaining the attack?



You wouldn't. However, if you hit your opponent, and wanted to hurt them, you wouldn't cancel your attack, you would keep it up so it would actually do damage. However, if you don't know if it hit or not, then you wouldn't know whether to cancel it or not.

More evidence that they don't have this kind of ability that you are suggesting.



> Saying that a blast is planet destroying simply helps you the reader rank it. Then as readers, we don't need to see the fighters blowing up planets to know they can do it (especially seeing as the good guys would lose if the planet they were fighting on was destroyed)



You're dodging the question.

Answer this: If every blast is planet - destroying, why is it specially called to attention whenever a blast is supposed to be planet - destroying? According to you, it would just be the same as any other blast, so why do they always specifically point it out?



> The punch example also explains this somewhat. If you've trained in martial arts, you'll know that the instructor teaches you to aim your punch slightly beyond the target, such that the force is carried into it. If you aimed to direct your punch power simply at the surface of the target, you wouldn't get a very effective impact.



And how does this explain it, again? You're suggesting that after the blast explodes, they just make the rest of it disappear, or something?



> Lol.. wtf.. vegeta pwns her.. no problem.. she only gets her powers from a costume.. imo.. thats shit.. she loses to a true saiyan.



You're an idiot. She gets her powers from the Greek gods, and she is stronger, faster, and more powerful than Vegeta. She would kill him before he even knew what hit him.


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## Hamaru (Nov 7, 2006)

Vegita wold big bang her ass to another gallexy


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## Hamaru (Nov 7, 2006)

Wow.... I got neg rep for what I said but no reply???? Let me say this; I do know my facts! Wonderwoman was able to hold her own ageanst Superman and she has kicked alot of ass! I watch the show and I read the Comics. But come on Vegita was able to destroy planets since the sayian saga! At this point his power is off the charts.


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## Chatulio (Nov 7, 2006)

All Vegeta has is energy blasts. Wonder Woman in DC is in the top three most powerful superheros. I believe she is right under superman and above Captain Marvel.


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## Hamaru (Nov 7, 2006)

Chatulio said:


> All Vegeta has is energy blasts. Wonder Woman in DC is in the top three most powerful superheros. I believe she is right under superman and above Captain Marvel.



All he has???? You talk as if thats nothing They guy trains at 10,000 times the earth gravity in his normal form!!! So he is also hella fast and strong! Not to mention his super sajian forms He has enof power to blow up planets as a daily worm up, and the sad thing is that its true. Show me one time Wonder woman had that kind of power!


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## Chatulio (Nov 7, 2006)

WW godwave is more than a match for anything Vegeta can throw at her. Also its pretty hard to match up the different physics of both universes. Wonder Woman in terms of Physical strength has done more than vegeta. Though Vegeta is perhaps as durable as she is. Neither of them are capable of light speed their just faster than the human can keep up with.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 7, 2006)

Hamaru said:


> All he has???? You talk as if thats nothing They guy trains at 10,000 times the earth gravity in his normal form!!!



Since when? 450 was the maximum he ever trained in.

Not to mention Wonder Woman escaped from a black hole, which has infinite gravity.


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## Hamaru (Nov 7, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Since when? 450 was the maximum he ever trained in.
> 
> Not to mention Wonder Woman escaped from a black hole, which has infinite gravity.



I stand Corrected on that  and the black hole is also very impressive. However that does not make her destructive ability at Vegita's level


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## Gunners (Nov 7, 2006)

The thing is with gravity training is it can't really compare to weight lifting in the sense that your blood gets heavier, so actually staying alive would become difficult.

Me personally I think Vegeta has this match up, I don't know whether it is stuborness but I have a certain impression of him and a certain impression on Wonderwoman. To many others Vegeta probably looses this match up because they have diffrent impressions on Vegeta, the opinion on wonderwoman probably differs aswell to my limited knowledge. Me personally I don't really like DBZ character match ups a lot of things don't match up and brutality comes from them.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 7, 2006)

gunners said:


> The thing is with gravity training is it can't really compare to weight lifting in the sense that your blood gets heavier, so actually staying alive would become difficult.
> 
> Me personally I think Vegeta has this match up, I don't know whether it is stuborness but I have a certain impression of him and a certain impression on Wonderwoman. To many others Vegeta probably looses this match up because they have diffrent impressions on Vegeta, the opinion on wonderwoman probably differs aswell to my limited knowledge. Me personally I don't really like DBZ character match ups a lot of things don't match up and brutality comes from them.



So in other words, he wins because you want him to, and you have no real evidence.


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## Keollyn (Nov 7, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Since when? 450 was the maximum he ever trained in.
> 
> Not to mention Wonder Woman escaped from a black hole, which has* infinite gravity.*



Did you mean she escaped from the center of a black hole? Because I recall that being the only point where the gravitational field is infinite.


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## Gunners (Nov 7, 2006)

> So in other words, he wins because you want him to, and you have no real evidence.


Not really, I have my reasons, and there is evidence to back it up. I was saying with the evidence it isn't clear cut and if someone read the same scene they could have a diffrent impression on it. Which is why DBZ isn't ideal to debate.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 7, 2006)

Keollyn said:


> Did you mean she escaped from the center of a black hole? Because I recall that being the only point where the gravitational field is infinite.



Yes, she was past the event horizon.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 7, 2006)

gunners said:


> Not really, I have my reasons, and there is evidence to back it up. I was saying with the evidence it isn't clear cut and if someone read the same scene they could have a diffrent impression on it. Which is why DBZ isn't ideal to debate.



*sigh*

You know what, I'm going to let this go for now, although if I wanted to I would have a few choice words against this line of reasoning.


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## Keollyn (Nov 7, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Yes, she was past the event horizon.



Wow...

That seems a bit out of her power range though.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 7, 2006)

It was implied to have something to do with her magical properties.


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## Gunners (Nov 7, 2006)

> You know what, I'm going to let this go for now, although if I wanted to I would have a few choice words against this line of reasoning.



Reply to it later if you wish. The point is, any evidence shown in dbz can be taken multiple ways, depending on how you take it, you will get a diffrent impression on the characters overall strength. I find it pointless argueing what the characters actual strength is rather that character vs character. It will always be like that because people's view differs, there isn't a standard DBZ level that everyone works too.


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## Hamaru (Nov 7, 2006)

gunners said:


> Reply to it later if you wish. The point is, any evidence shown in dbz can be taken multiple ways, depending on how you take it, you will get a diffrent impression on the characters overall strength. I find it pointless argueing what the characters actual strength is rather that character vs character. It will always be like that because people's view differs, there isn't a standard DBZ level that everyone works too.



I know what you mean I think....Kinda like how some charectors seem real strong at time and in other times they are supposed to be stronger but it does not seem like it? So like if a battle forum with Freiza you can say that the guy blows up planets with his finger, yet later on he uses a HUGE energy ball while on earth and Trunk just lifts it up, or when he is supposed to be more powerful he gets killed with a puch from adult gohan, even thogh he survived being cut in half when he was "weaker"


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## Gohan (Nov 7, 2006)

Keollyn said:


> Did you mean she escaped from the center of a black hole? Because I recall that being the only point where the gravitational field is infinite.



If the gravity was infinite then that doesn't demonstrate her strength/force at all. Because theoretically NOONE can escape infinite gravity unless they are omnipotent or have a special magical power to counter it.

Infinite gravity = infinite force = unlimited pulling power.

If they used some form of magic power then why is it even debated if we are using this to compare strength.


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## Gohan (Nov 7, 2006)

Hamaru said:


> I know what you mean I think....Kinda like how some charectors seem real strong at time and in other times they are supposed to be stronger but it does not seem like it? So like if a battle forum with Freiza you can say that the guy blows up planets with his finger, yet later on he uses a HUGE energy ball while on earth and Trunk just lifts it up, or when he is supposed to be more powerful he gets killed with a puch from adult gohan, even thogh he survived being cut in half when he was "weaker"




Because trunks is way stronger than Freeza at that time. Adult Gohan is way more powerful than when Goku first achieved Super Saiyan.


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## Suzumebachi (Nov 7, 2006)

> Because theoretically NOONE can escape infinite gravity



Wonder Woman can.


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## Gooba (Nov 8, 2006)

It isn't infinite, it is just a ridiculous amount, and she escaped from that.


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## Sasuke` (Nov 8, 2006)

This is a silly Thread.. Vegeta wrecks her.. she couldnt beat krillin.. no offence to her fans.. but come on... 1 finger is all vegeta would need.


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## Gooba (Nov 8, 2006)

Sasuke_Kenshin said:


> This is a silly Thread.. Vegeta wrecks her.. she couldnt beat krillin.. no offence to her fans.. but come on... 1 finger is all vegeta would need.


You really need to read this thread if you don't think she could beat Krillen.

And people wonder why we always say DBZ brings the most bias.


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## Violent Man (Nov 8, 2006)

Vegeta wins easily.


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## Suzumebachi (Nov 8, 2006)

berwyn said:


> Vegeta wins easily.



Why is this?


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## Violent Man (Nov 8, 2006)

I'll reply tomorrow. I've got work soon so I need to get some sleep.


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## Suzumebachi (Nov 8, 2006)

Of course you do.


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## Gohan (Nov 8, 2006)

Gooba said:


> It isn't infinite, it is just a ridiculous amount, and she escaped from that.



Well Endless Mike confirmed that it was "infinite" in the comic.

Also didn't she escape from that because of her power that allowed her to not because of her physical strength which is what we were using that example to demonstrate wasn't it?


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## Gohan (Nov 8, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:


> Wonder Woman can.



Well if thats the case you can either choose one option:

A) She has unlimited strength inorder to match the unlimited amount of gravity from a black hole.

B) Magical properties that allowed her to counteract that particular situation.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 8, 2006)

Actually, it's more likely that the magic in question was her ability to throw the lasso and move faster than light (which has been demonstrated in the past).


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## Sasuke` (Nov 9, 2006)

Gooba said:


> You really need to read this thread if you don't think she could beat Krillen.
> 
> And people wonder why we always say DBZ brings the most bias.



Im not a biased fan at all.. but if you seriously think she can beat vegeta.. I am sorry to say this.. but.. you are lost..


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## Endless Mike (Nov 9, 2006)

Sasuke_Kenshin said:


> Im not a biased fan at all.. but if you seriously think she can beat vegeta.. I am sorry to say this.. but.. you are lost..



Then why don't you actually provide evidence that Vegeta can win?

Because he can't.


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## Orion (Nov 9, 2006)

i still waiting on how the hell vegetas gunna beat lightspeed aegis shield and godwave....


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## Suzumebachi (Nov 9, 2006)

Sasuke_Kenshin said:


> Im not a biased fan at all.. but if you seriously think she can beat vegeta.. I am sorry to say this.. but.. you are lost..



Is it opposite day or something?


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