# [PRIMER] Tsunade in close-quarters combat



## Suu (Jul 12, 2011)

Just a few notes before we begin. 

Firstly, I'd like to caution all potential readers that this will be a _long_ read. If you cannot be bothered reading what follows, I completely understand and respect that, but please refrain from posting with the intent of refuting arguments presented in this essay if you have not taken the time to read them in the first place. I am more than happy to discuss and debate, but only within reason.

This essay was written primarily with the purpose of creating an educational primer for the Battledome, where Tsunade in the context of battle is most frequently and vigorously debated. Over the years, I have seen many users underestimate Tsunade; the fact that Tsunade can only barely scrape a majority vote in a hypothetical battle against pre-timeskip, gate-less Lee is proof enough that her close-quarters skill is vastly underrated across the board - and this is just one of many rather extreme cases that I can think of from the top of my head.

Therefore, I would like to make it clear that this essay is not trying to defend or describe Tsunade as a character; her personality, decisions, actions, plot-relevance, worthiness of her position and whatnot are all of little importance to this essay. This essay is merely inspecting Tsunade from a battle perspective - and only a very specific facet of battle at that (close-quarters). 

Enjoy!

-Updated 16/3/13


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## Suu (Jul 12, 2011)

*Tsunade in close-quarters combat*​
~_Primer Part I_~​

*Introduction*

Tsunade is often disregarded in close-quarters combat  simply   because  she does not seem as speedy or precise as other  combatants, such   as  Lee or Gai. Whilst this may be true, it does not  necessarily make   her  any less dangerous in close-quarters. These sorts  of comparisons    often result in her underestimation due to the fact  that many people do    not realise that Tsunade utilises a different _style_  of    close-quarters fighting altogether, one that is not as reliant  upon her  speed and   precision of attacks. This style takes full  advantage of  the traits that   set her apart from most other ninja,  which in concert  can make her equally   as dangerous a close-quarters  combatant as any  other high tier ninja.

First of all, whilst Tsunade may not be very fast, she is certainly not _slow_.     I would place her speed at around average, if not slightly above, as     does the databook with a speed statistic of 3.5 out of a possible 5.   She   has shown the ability to blitz an opponent who according to the     databook possesses more speed than herself [], albeit from a very short distance, and the ability to react swiftly to attacks for which there was little-to-no forewarning [][].  Her reaction speed was also fast enough to manoeuvre Gamabunta's tantō  back towards the ground in the split second she had before Manda's jaws  could snap shut [].  In terms of direct movement speed, she was able to intercept Madara's  barrage of Katon jutsu before Mei Terumī - a ninjutsu specialist - could  cast a single Suiton jutsu [].
Furthermore, it should be noted that _Shunshin no Jutsu_ is classified as ninjutsu and therefore may be partially - if not wholly - excluded from the databook speed statistic []. Tsunade herself has potentially shown an impressive _Shunshin_ range, reaching Pain's location in the centre of Konoha's ruins in mere moments [], despite being exhausted to the point of near-death []. 

I must stress, however, that speed alone is not the only factor that may     be important during a close-quarters skirmish. Do not get me wrong,   it   is _undeniably_ important in most situations, but there are   other   factors that can come into play during close-combat. Many of   these  other  factors are more or less tantamount to Tsunade's fighting   style,  and  can even give her the edge she needs to fight on par with -   if not  best -  faster opponents. For further reading on some of the   factors not  covered in  this primer, please refer to Vagrant Tom's   thread [].

There are five main factors that contribute to Tsunade's fighting style and close-combat lethality. These are Tsunade's:

strength, both in striking power and upper body,
resilience, healing and regeneration,
stamina and endurance,
anticipatory and evasive skills, stemming from experience,

skill in taijutsu.
Whilst   this list is by no means exhaustive, I will be exploring  the  feats  and bodies of evidence that suggest why Tsunade may possess  these   traits,  and explain how they may be applied to a close-quarters  combat    scenario.


*Factor 1: Tsunade's strength*

Tsunade indisputably has some of the best strength feats in the entire manga, matched only by few. A single _Tsūtenkyaku_ to the ground can cause an earth-shattering quake, resulting in an enormous crater [], and even a strike from a single finger can rip the ground apart to create a sizeable fissure [].     Tsunade's most impressive strength feat, however, comes from her     lifting of Gamabunta's several tonne tantō hundreds of metres into the     air, and the speed and dexterity at which she manoeuvred it about [].     The enormous amount of upper body strength that would have been     required to execute such a feat suggests that Tsunade's striking force     may potentially be far more destructive than ever shown on-panel.

Orochimaru himself - a ninja who had fought alongside Tsunade for     decades, and probably witnessed the full extent of   her strength -   tells Kabuto that a single blow from Tsunade can _kill_ [].     Not only does Orochimaru have little incentive to lie, but he makes     this statement with full awareness of Kabuto's self-healing ability _In'yu Shōmetsu_ [14],    which in turn speaks volumes for Tsunade's strength. Indeed,  a  single punch from Tsunade was able to completely obliterate a large   portion of Madara's Mokubunshin's body [], and a mere handful of blows  allowed her to shatter Madara's _Susano'o_ [].  Even against    highly defensive opponents, her strength can  potentially cause a   great  deal of blunt force trauma, which can lead  to concussion and   internal  injury [].

Now before you jump in and ask "What is the use of high strength when     she won't have the speed to hit anybody?", hear me out first.

Less strength-focused fighters, such as Rock Lee in base mode, need to land _full hits_  when they wish to inflict considerable damage upon their opponents.    Partial hits would essentially have little-to-no effect upon  foes, and   serve only to waste precious energy and chakra. Thus, their  speed and    accuracy is crucial to their fighting styles. Close-quarters   combatants   like Lee need the speed to be able to get close enough to   opponents  and  position themselves appropriately to allow themselves  the   opportunity to  land full and proper hits. 

Tsunade with her superhuman strength, on the other hand, need not follow     this rule. She does not need to get so close to an opponent, or   attack   so fast and accurately, to maximise her chances of landing a   full hit.   All she needs is enough speed to set herself up to land a _partial hit_.     Why? Because even a partial hit from her can deal incredible amounts    of  damage. Glancing blows and the like can all cause grievous harm    thanks  to her strength; if a single finger strike from Tsunade can   split the  ground  apart, I shudder to think of how much damage she   could inflict  by merely  _grazing_ an opponent. Furthermore, the   sheer force of a  partial  hit can easily throw an enemy off balance,   leaving them open  to a  followup attack - one that will most likely   result in a _full_ hit. 

Kishimoto himself has explored the concept of partial  hits in  close-quarters combat rather thoroughly. One of the best  examples of  this would be the way in which the mechanics behind _Jūken_ are described in the manga, with emphasis upon the fact that even a glancing blow can deal massive amounts of damage [].   Poisoned weapons and attacks have also been described in a similar   manner in the past, wherein a mere scratch is all that would be required  to seal  an opponent's fate [].   Of course, whilst Tsunade's attacks involve neither injections of   chakra nor poison, they are all similar in that none of these  forms of  attack require a full hit to be lethal.

It is strongly implied that much of Tsunade's strength stems from the     use of chakra; that is, by concentrating maximum amounts of the   spiritual energy instantly in   specific areas of her body, she is able   to greatly enhance her power [20]. We already know that the bottom of the feet is the most difficult area of the body for ninja to gather chakra [], and given that Tsunade has already shown exceptional strength and chakra release from her feet [][],     not to mention her unparalleled chakra control (see 'Factor 3:     Tsunade's stamina'), it follows that she should be able to exert this     strength from almost any part of her body that coincides with her     Keirakukei [].     From this perspective, every inch of Tsunade's body can become a  deadly  weapon, which only heightens her chances of landing a partial or  full  hit.

Tsunade's strength  can also be used to throw enemies off balance,    disrupting their  rhythm and potentially creating openings for herself.    It is certainly  not out-of-character for Tsunade to destroy the terrain    in attempts  to throw enemies off [][], and we know that - despite the role chakra may play in everyday ninja mobility - terrain effects _can_ still cause ninja to lose their balance [27][28].     It should be noted that even when Tsunade does not try to throw    enemies  off, she may inadvertently do so if her attack were to miss;   following through with her swing can destroy the terrain  around the   enemy,  creating fissures, earthquakes and whatnot. Particularly   powerful  hits from Tsunade can create shock waves, which  may also   serve to  disrupt enemy movement [].     One could even suggest that terrain effects are well-suited for     combating swifter opponents, who might focus more on speed rather than   careful   footing or maintaining a firm grounding [30]. Kishimoto   himself has certainly acknowledged the potential for terrain effects  to  hamper ninja movement; in  his databook description of _Satetsu Kesshu_,   he notes that even if  an enemy were able to evade the attack, the   shattering of the ground  would create unstable footholds, leaving the   enemy open to  attack [].
 
For instance, should Tsunade attempt to create a fissure beneath an opponent, staying put would result in a debilitating fall [],     leaving them vulnerable to a followup attack, but at the same time     jumping could also result in an exploitable opening,  la Sasuke vs.     Itachi [33][34].     The act of jumping mid-battle can prove frighteningly precarious for   ninja, due to   the inability to a dodge in midair (barring flight)  and  the predictability of ascending and descending movement [].     Particularly in situations where enemies have positioned themselves     upon some kind of physical structure, Tsunade can essentially force  her    foes into a sort of Catch 22, in which they must choose either to   stay and risk   losing their balance [], or jump and risk becoming open to attack.

Following on from this point, it is equally possible for Tsunade to use     her strength to inflict shrapnel-like damage. Stray blows may     inadvertently destroy the terrain, with the sheer force of the impact   sending debris flying in all directions and at high speeds [].     Debris that does hit enemies may disrupt their balance, disorient    them,  hinder their movement, and in rare cases may even injure them [][].     Although this has never been shown to cause problems for Tsunade or    any  opponent of hers specifically, debris damage has been known to  pose    threats to unwary ninja in the past [40][41]. A solid hit to the head can easily knock a lesser ninja out cold [][43], and even veteran ninja are not immune to harm [44]. 

Lastly, many people overlook the advantage Tsunade may have in     close-quarters combat against enemies who possess no initial knowledge     of her superhuman strength. In close-quarters, some may hold a     preference for _blocking_ or _parrying_ incoming hits.     Irrefutably, an attempt to block a full-powered punch from Tsunade would     result in broken bones and grievous injury for her opponent -  perhaps    even death [].    Even  ninja who have knowledge of Tsunade's strength may struggle  with this  fact; in close-quarters combat, many split-second decisions  and actions  are driven by instinct, and a practised ninja may raise an  arm up to  block out of sheer habit. It  should be noted that the  aforementioned Catch 22  with terrain  destruction only works because of  the fact that it is  almost impossible  to block a hit from Tsunade,  which is the only option  left when  evasion is out of the question.  Moreover,  some taijutsu manoeuvres may not  work  against  Tsunade  simply by merit of her upper body strength;  Tsunade can   easily  overwhelm opponents who attempt grapple-tactics with  her [46], and can send opponents flying should they attempt taijutsu manoeuvres such as leg-binds [47].


*Factor 2: Tsunade's resilience*

Although Tsunade has not shown any sort of defensive ninjutsu (at least     not without Katsuyu), her resilience to damage is very high. There  are    many examples of Tsunade's resilience.

Example 1A:Due to Tsunade's rusty and tired out state,     Kabuto held the edge over her during their brief close-quarters tussle.     Although he landed the first hit upon her, Tsunade was still able to     counter-attack swiftly [48]. Other ninja, such as Shizune and Naruto, were incapacitated almost _immediately_ after being hit by chakra scalpels [49][50].     The fact that Tsunade could continue moving under these conditions,    let  alone counter-attack, is a feat of resilience in itself.​Example 1B:In     a similar example, an exhausted (hampered movement) and rusty    (potentially hampered  movement) Tsunade, who had just had her leg  muscles cut   (hampered  movement) and subcostal muscle injured (greatly  hampered   movement;  according to Kabuto it would normally have  "stopped a person   in their  tracks" [51]),     was able to get up off her knees, run towards and behind Kabuto, and     hit him with a debilitating jutsu during the brief moment his eyes  were closed [52].     The mere fact that she could continue moving in this state surprised     even her opponent, and is an enormous testament to her ability to  continue    moving and attacking despite sustaining multiple  movement-impairing    ailments.​Example 1C:Tsunade  was rusty, tired    out, had her leg muscles cut, a potentially  unhealed    subcostal muscle injury, various abrasions from Kabuto's  assault, and    slashes from Orochimaru's Kusanagi sword up along her  shoulder, across    her torso and straight through her chest, and yet we  discover that the    only thing that was _really_ hampering her  movement - and    subsequently preventing her from attacking - was her  haemophobia. Why?    Because the moment she overcame it, she was able to  get up off the    ground (from an inconvenient starting position [53]) and hit Orochimaru square in the face [54]. This was an Orochimaru who had been watching her intently enough to notice exactly when her trembling had stopped [55],     and thus it must have been a swift strike indeed. Once again, the  fact    that she was able to attack Orochimaru in the first place, much  less connect her hit, despite    several potentially mortal wounds  ailing her, speaks volumes for her    resilience.​Example 1D:During Pain's invasion of Konoha, Tsunade was hit by Deva Path Pain's amplified _Shinra Tensei_      without the protection of Katsuyu, and was still able to move      relatively well afterward, reaching Naruto mere moments after the blast []. This is the same jutsu that held enough force to destroy every single building in Konoha and send the entire village _hundreds of metres_      below ground level. We later discover that the main factor  hindering     Tsunade from fighting was not the extent of the injuries  she    had  sustained from being hit with this force, but rather her  depleted levels  of chakra [].      Whilst others in the vicinity may have replicated this feat, it  does     not detract from her feat of resilience, especially given the  fact   that   others have nearly died in the past after being hit by  normal,  unamplified _Shinra Tensei_ attacks.​To augment her ability to take on damage and continue moving and attacking, Tsunade has her _Sōzō Saisei_    jutsu, and its stronger variant, _ Byakug__ō no Jutsu_. The latter in particular grants her a constant    regenerative effect that appears to last for _hours_,  as evidenced by the Gokage battle extending well into the night.  This  S-ranked jutsu allows her to hastily    regrow entire organs and limbs [58], and requires little more than a clasping of hands together to activate [59],     with apparently little-to-no concentration needed to keep the     regeneration running afterward. Tsunade specifically distinguishes this     jutsu from mere 'healing', labelling it 'regeneration' instead;   indeed,   the databook goes to lengths to describe _Sōzō Saisei_ as the 'ultimate medical ninjutsu' because of its ability to transcend the normal limitations of medical ninjutsu [].

Example 1E:During the Gokage battle, Tsunade was pierced  through the abdomen - apparently where her spine would have been - by  two gigantic _Susano'o_ blades []. Although _Byakugō no Jutsu_  was active at the time, there would have been only so much Tsunade  could regenerate whilst the blades were still physically within her  body, and the pain alone would have been debilitating for any ordinary  ninja. Hence, the fact that she was still able to move and fight -  perhaps giving one of her best showings in the manga, landing a direct  hit on one of Madara's _Susano'o_ - can be linked directly to her extraordinary resilience.​How might Tsunade's  resilience and regeneration  make her more dangerous    an opponent in  close-quarters combat? To  illustrate this, we will once again use Lee  as an example.

Lee has no sort of natural resilience to damage, nor does he possess any      form of defence. Despite this, his fighting style frequently   requires    him to get dangerously close to his opponents, so close that   he    constantly runs the risk of copping a well-timed counter-attack.   Due to    his lack of defence, the only real way he can lower this  risk  is by    using his speed to dodge and by timing his manoeuvres  perfectly. Having very little in the way of defence and  resilience also     spells trouble for Lee should he ever be hit by an  attack, as his     comparatively longer recovery time may hamper his  ability to     counter-attack and/or avoid subsequent attacks. 

Tsunade, on the other hand, is not so reliant upon speed. Even if she      does not possess the necessary speed to avoid all attacks in      close-quarters, she can simply 'tank' a hit and counter-attack. In all      of the above examples of her resilience, she has shown the   remarkable    ability to continue moving and attacking regardless of the   severity  of   her wounds. This ability may allow her to surprise an   unsuspecting    opponent and land a hit, or even force her enemy into a   position where    they cannot avoid her counter-attack. The risk of  being counter-attacked is a very harsh reality in the field of  close-quarters fighting, as acknowledged by both Lee and Minato [][],  two very skilled close-quarters specialists themselves. It should be  noted that in these instances, counter-attacking is mentioned as a  direct weakness of frontal speed-type attacks. 
 
Take Example 1A for instance. Kabuto has the speed advantage over      Tsunade at this point in time, due to factors such as her rustiness and      tiredness. He is fast enough to avoid her attacks and get close to    her,   ultimately landing the first few hits. However, after landing    those   hits, even Kabuto had to cop a counter-attack from Tsunade [64]. If we replace Kabuto with a ninja who _did not_      have the capacity to negate Tsunade's strength in that scenario,  her counter-attack may very well have proven lethal. Even if critical    damage was dealt to Tsunade during those first few hits, as shown   from  her   ability to attack whilst sustaining devastating injuries from      Orochimaru's Kusanagi sword, Tsunade should be able to temporarily      ignore her wounds and counter-attack. Counter-attack for the kill. 

In a scenario where Tsunade has been hit by a piercing or penetrative  close-ranged     attack from an opponent, she can take advantage of her  opponent's  forced    proximity to her body to land a blow. For example,  if Tsunade  were to    be penetrated by a _Chidori_-like attack,  whilst her  opponent's   arm  is lodged within her body, she can  temporarily ignore the  damage due   to  her resilience and reach out to  attack them in a  scenario not  unlike   what we saw during Naruto and  Sasuke's battle at  the Valley of  the End  [65], or even Sasuke's battle with Ei [66].

If we take her perpetual regeneration from _Sōzō Saisei_ or _Byakug__ō__ no Jutsu_  into     account, Tsunade's ability to take damage and counter-attack  increases     tenfold. Once her jutsu is active, she can instantaneously  regenerate     any part of her body from almost any sort of damage.  This would allow     her to 'ignore' even more severe wounds than she  otherwise could  not.    Going back to Example 1A where Kabuto managed  to cut her muscles  before    being hit by a counter-attack, it is safe  to say that had  Tsunade had    her regeneration jutsu active at the  time, she likely  would have    regenerated her muscular damage in time  for her  counter-attack to have    actually injured him.

Given Tsunade's propensity to preemptively activate _Byakug__ō__ no Jutsu _before entering combat [], she  can easily take on devastating amounts of     damage, regenerate  instantly from it, and counter-attack for lethal damage. If   her    opponent has no knowledge of her jutsu's regenerative  properties,  this    counter-attack tactic only becomes all the more  lethal. It is  definitely not   beyond Tsunade to 'play dead' against opponents  to  make them  drop their   guard and create an opening [68][]. Tsunade's other medical ninjutsu may also help her emulate these tactics to some extent [70].

Lastly, it should be noted that a lot of the time during hand-to-hand  combat, combatants actually hold back on their striking speed and  frequency just in case they need to quickly defend themselves from an  attack. However, with a technique like _Byakug__ō__ no Jutsu_, Tsunade  essentially has the freedom to ignore defence and evasion and focus  entirely upon offence without holding back. Doing so may potentially  bridge some of the speed gap that exists between a faster opponent and  herself. Likewise, if Tsunade does opt to fight this way, it can become  harder for her opponent to safely land a hit upon her whilst maintaining  the capacity to dodge or defend against her imminent counter-attack.  Such relentless aggression can actually provide a noticeable boost in  combat performance, and the only reason it is not used more often is  because it is considered exceedingly reckless [], although given Tsunade's regeneration, I doubt that it be something she would have to worry about.


*Factor 3: Tsunade's stamina*

Although it may not be applicable to close-quarters combat exclusively,     nor may the role it can play in close-quarters combat be of extreme  importance, it is certainly worth mentioning Tsunade's stamina as a     factor. It is one thing to be resilient to damage, but a ninja also     needs the stamina to continue fighting for long periods of time if they     are going to attempt to outlast enemies. The databook places  Tsunade's    stamina at a high 4 out of 5, which comes as no surprise  given what  she   has shown us.

Example 1F:A rusty Tsunade chased Orochimaru and Kabuto all     the way from Tanzaku Castle to the plains where the Sannin battle  ultimately took place,   destroying  everything in her path with  chakra-enhanced strength.   She then  fought Kabuto, utilising not only  her strength but also _Ranshinshō_, and even healed herself. After a brief period out of action, she released _Sōzō Saisei_, summoned Katsuyu (note that a summoning jutsu of that scale apparently requires a fair amount of chakra [72]), and proceeded to lift Gamabunta's tantō - presumably with chakra-enhanced strength again - and 'super jump' with it [] (a manoeuvre that may have utilised the same mechanics as a _Shunshin no Jutsu_,     which is chakra-fueled), before slamming it down upon Manda's mouth.     She then knocked Orochimaru out with a single, chakra-enhanced  punch.    Even then, doing all of that did not seem to exhaust Tsunade  of all  her   chakra. When she began trembling and staggering after the  battle,  she   attributed it to the aftereffects of her _Sōzō Saisei_ jutsu rather than chakra or stamina exhaustion [74].​Example 1G:Another     example of Tsunade's high stamina can be observed through her  actions    during Pain's invasion of Konoha. There, not only did she  summon Katsuyu,    but she proceeded to use her summon as a medium to  heal _thousands_ of villagers and Shinobi [75] - and according to her, healing just one wound requires a great deal of chakra [76].     Although she did inevitably fall into a comatose state due to chakra     exhaustion, the fact that she was able to heal so many people     simultaneously and consecutively reflects highly upon her stamina.​As high chakra control is a prerequisite for both medical ninjutsu [77] and strength-enhancement [78],     we can deduce that Tsunade's control over her chakra must be     exceptional indeed. With this supreme chakra control, even when she is     low on stamina, she can continue to use ninjutsu, strength, and   anything   chakra-based to maximum efficiency with no chakra wastage [79].     Whilst not strictly classified under stamina, her ability to utilise     her chakra at maximum efficiency would no doubt place less of a  strain    upon her stamina during battle.

So how might Tsunade's high stamina and chakra efficiency help her in     close-quarters combat? For ninja who have comparatively low amounts of     stamina, they must rely on their speed and lethality of attacks to     finish the battle as quickly as possible, lest they suffer from     exhaustion. Needless to say, a ninja who continues to fight with     insufficient stamina is going to be considerably hampered in a variety     of ways; movement, reaction time, judgement and other cognitive     functions can all encumber during a state of exhaustion. Tsunade can  take advantage of her superior stamina and chakra    efficiency - along  with her high resilience to damage - to 'outlast'    opponents and  slowly wear them down. Once her opponent is in a state of    exhaustion,  they should become easy pickings for her, regardless of how much faster  or more skilled they were than her initially.

Furthermore, the longer Tsunade can last in battle, the more     opportunities she will have to land a hit or even a partial hit. In     every close-quarters skirmish, combatants are constantly at risk of     leaving openings in their guard, openings that their opponents will aim  to exploit.    Although discrepancies in speed, taijutsu skill and  whatnot can help    lower this risk, it is almost impossible to  completely negate it, and    fighters like Tsunade can create their own  opportunities (see 'Factor 1:    Tsunade's strength'). As a battle  against Tsunade draws out for longer  and   longer, the number of these  opportunities and openings in her   opponent's  guard will only increase  exponentially as they tire at a   faster rate  than her.


*Factor 4: Tsunade's anticipation*

Tsunade once referred   to evasion as a skill of primary importance for medical ninja [80], and thus it would certainly make sense if her _own_  fighting style placed a strong emphasis upon evasion. However, when I  say 'evasion' in Tsunade's case, I am not referring to the ability to  simply react quickly to an attack. I am referring to the ability to _anticipate_     an attack and react accordingly. Many do not know the difference.  The    former requires high speed and reaction time. The latter    requires  a great deal of experience and knowledge, in line with    comments made by  Chiyo [81],    who is an experienced veteran in her own right. 

Tsunade indeed has a wealth of experience under her belt - decades worth  of    it, in fact. According to the databook her experience outshines  most    other ninja in the manga, with 40 D-rank, 236 C-rank, 467  B-rank, 418    A-rank, and 95 S-rank missions completed, totalling 1256  missions    completed altogether [].     On top of this, she may have accumulated a great deal of    uncredited  combat experience from her participation in the Second and    possibly the  Third Great Ninja War. 

Do not be fooled into thinking that Tsunade's mission and war experience     merely consists of non-combat, medical support roles; she did not     become _feared_ around the world as one of the Legendary Sannin     simply for being a healer. Furthermore, Tsunade is not only famous for     her medical skills but also her strength and unbending will [83][84],     suggesting that combat - specifically close-quarters combat - played  a prominent part of the years she spent out in the field earning a     reputation for herself. Jiraiya himself, her teammate of many years,     claims that _both_ her medical and combat skills were of great importance during the wars [85], and Shikaku, Konoha's Jōnin Commander, praises her for her strength rather than her medical skills [86].

None of this is even taking into account Tsunade's high intelligence. Tsunade was hailed as a prodigy when she was young [], made many developments in the field of medicine (which in itself implies a high amount of intellect [88]),     and even the databook places her intelligence statistic at a maximal    5.  As Hokage, she routinely formulates teams of ninja whose  abilities are  best tailored to specific missions and can synergise well  with one another [89], and also helps formulate strategies based upon intelligence gathered [90]. We also know that ninja of high intellect are expected to be capable of calculating incredibly complex tactical figures [91], which may help Tsunade evaluate the best course of evasive action to take, even during the heat of combat.

Without question, Tsunade's high intellect, paired with her incredible memory [92],     should allow her to apply her vast battle experience to any combat     situation. It follows that her experience can thus serve to greatly  augment her anticipatory skills.

Exactly how experience can be applied to help a ninja anticipate and  evade an enemy's attacks is best illustrated through the example of  Sakura. When Sakura battled Sasori and his Sandaime    Kazekage puppet,  Chiyo was initially required to help her evade Sasori's    attacks,  puppeteering her around the battlefield. Eventually, however,    Sakura  began seeing patterns and regularities in Sasori's manoeuvres,    and  towards the end was even starting to show signs of being able to     dodge _without_ the assistance of Chiyo [93]. This is not because Sasori's attacks became any _slower_ or that Sakura became any _faster_,     but rather due to the fact that she was able to analyse his attacks,  anticipate them, and    dodge accordingly. Sakura applied her wits and  experience to the situation to help herself avoid being hit. For further  reading on the mechanics of Sakura's    method of evasion, see Mizura's  thread [].

As    Tsunade was responsible for Sakura's training in  evasion over the time-skip [95],  and given their rather similar fighting styles and intellectual traits,  it is relatively safe to assume that     Sakura's method of evasion is  not unlike Tsunade's. Now imagine if Sakura  possessed as much battle experience as Tsunade. That is,    she went out  into the world, fought in many battles, and faced all   kinds  of  enemies. As she does so, the number of attack patterns she   becomes   exposed to _increases_, and thus she becomes able to   anticipate -   and subsequently know how to evade - an even larger array   of  different  attack styles. That is Tsunade.

Tsunade's vast combat experience may  find  application not    only in her avoidance of enemy attacks, but perhaps  also in her  offensive measures. If years of  experience can grant her    the  ability to analyse and anticipate enemy  attacks, what is to say  she   cannot  perceive enemy movement patterns  to enhance the timing  and   effect of  her own manoeuvres? Keen observation and analysis can  open up a range of subtle   advantages  for Tsunade, and go a long  way  in helping her find, create   and take  advantage of the opening  she  needs to land that decisive  blow, particularly when it comes to  counter-attacking (see 'Factor 2: Tsunade's resilience').


*Factor 5: Tsunade's taijutsu*

According to the databook, Tsunade possesses a maximum of 5 out of 5 for     taijutsu skill. Once again, this should come as no surprise, given    what  we have seen of her. 

Tsunade has proven herself capable of reacting to attacks for which she has had little-to-no forewarning [], and showcased    her ability to avoid hits whilst at the same time positioning herself suitably for a swift counter-attack [] (as opposed to the kind  of   dodge that would _not_ have allowed for an efficient followup attack [98]). She has shown the ability to manoeuvre herself about and fight in awkward positions with apparent ease [][], counter-attack [101], and even _Shunshin_ behind to attack [102]. She can move and attack from inconvenient starting positions with surprising speed and mobility [103][104], and knows how and when to best take advantage of terrain-alteration []. She has shown remarkable dexterity in the heat of combat [106], even managing to steal Naruto's wallet, while drunk, without alerting him [107]. Bear in mind that half of the aforementioned taijutsu feats were performed whilst Tsunade was tired out, and _all_  them were whilst she was still very rusty. 

After the time-skip, her  timing and manoeuvrability allowed her to keep up with her fellow  members of the Gokage during their battle against Madara, allowing them  to successfully execute a two-pronged assault upon _Susano'o _in midair []. At the beginning of the battle, Tsunade was able to deal a swift blow upon Madara, despite travelling at a speed far greater than what she is normally used to []. Given the aforementioned weakness associated with the use of movement speed-reliant jutsu such as Chidori [], this feat speaks volumes for Tsunade's reaction speed as well as her timing of attacks.

Many people appear to be under the impression that taijutsu skill is  some form of combination between speed and how lethal one's attacks are,  although I see this interpretation as overly simplistic. In practice,  taijutsu can mean so much more. Let us examine   some  examples of where  speed and lethality of attacks are more or  less   equalised, so as to  highlight the difference in taijutsu skill as  the reason why one ninja  can have the upper hand over another in    close-quarters combat. 

Example 1H:During Sasuke's battle with Danzō, there was no     apparent disparity in speed between the two, and Sasuke even possessed     the range advantage with his sword. Despite this, Danzō was able to   land   the first hit against Sasuke [111],     most likely due to his superior skill in hand-to-hand fighting. It     should also be noted that Danzō's Sharingan was inactive at that point     in time. Had a ninja who possessed superhuman strength been in Danzō's place, Sasuke may very well have had his neck snapped in that instance. ​Example 1I:During  Kakashi's most  recent   battle with Sasuke, their speeds seemed equal,  and yet during  their   hand-to-hand tussle it was Kakashi who managed  to land a hit [].     It is not as if Sasuke had been too slow to react to the kick  either,    since he did not appear surprised by it and was even able to  block.  It   seems as though Kakashi's timing and combat intuition was  superior  to   Sasuke's here. His ability to know exactly _what_ taijutsu manoeuvre to use and _when_  allowed him to land the first hit. Once again, a strength-based fighter  would have dealt far more damage with that kick than Kakashi was able  to.​Example 1J:During    the early stages of  Sasuke's battle against Itachi, their speeds were   more  or less equal,  and Sasuke once again had the range    advantage with his sword.  However, during their close-combat skirmish,    it was Itachi who  managed to land the first hit upon Sasuke [113].  This appears to be due to Itachi's superior timing of attacks and his  choice of the right taijutsu manoeuvre to fit the situation.​These are three prime examples of how taijutsu skill - paired with _experience_     - can give one ninja the edge over another in close-quarters combat.  I personally see Sasuke as the perfect example of a ninja whose speed  and lethality of attacks is extremely high, but skill in taijutsu  comparatively low; hence, he is the subject of all three of my examples.  Whilst Sasuke's taijutsu skill is certainly nothing to sneeze at, his  lack of mastery becomes evident when pitted against enemies of a higher  skill level. So now that we have ruled out the most simplistic  interpretation of what taijutsu skill is, what exactly _does_ taijutsu skill represent?

Whilst Kishimoto has never been too specific  with his interpretation of taijutsu, I believe it encompasses a range  of different aspects. These include: the skill level and range of a  ninja's 'official' taijutsu techniques (also referred to as 'named  techniques'); the timing, precision and dexterity of a ninja's attacks  and actions; a ninja's flexibility, mobility, fluidity of motion, and  manoeuvrability in combat; the sharpness of a ninja's battle instincts,  the ability to know which manoeuvres to use no matter the situation; the  ability to perceive enemy weaknesses and openings, and to take  advantage of them, and so on. Speed and strength alone cannot possibly  encompass all of these aspects.

For instance, Kurenai is a ninja who according to the databook possesses  a decent level of speed and taijutsu. During her brief encounter with  Itachi, he landed a kick upon her, but not before she was able to block [].  I would expect, however, a ninja of superior taijutsu skill to be able  to perform the same feat, except instead of simply blocking, perhaps  twist their wrist or arm around slightly to catch Itachi's leg by the  ankle as it landed. That way, not only would they succeed in dragging  their opponent down with them, but a superhuman strength fighter like  Tsunade could simply give that leg a little squeeze to _break_ it.

Without a doubt, especially against less  experienced or less skilled    ninja, Tsunade's taijutsu skill is  representative of her ability to    perceive openings, take advantage of  them, time her attacks and movements properly, and use the right  taijutsu    manoeuvres to match the situation, which is evidenced by her  aforementioned feats.


*Miscellaneous factors*

It is good to note that many of the above factors will, at the very least, allow Tsunade to eventually _touch_ her opponents. Doing so will grant her the opportunity to apply her _Ranshinshō_ jutsu upon them, scrambling their nerves and completely debilitating them [115]. Speed goes out the window and the battle is more or less Tsunade's for the taking.

This is not the only ninjutsu that Tsunade can utilise in     close-quarters. If for any reason her strength is proving ineffective     against an enemy, she can use _Chakura no Mesu_ to inflict  internal    injury. Although she has not shown the use of this technique  in combat,   she  does use it to cut open Naruto's shirt [116], and both her comments regarding Kabuto's use of them and the databook imply that she can indeed use the jutsu [117][]. Likewise, Tsunade can use _Shousen Justu_ to overload chakra into her opponent's circulatory system, sending them into a comatose state [], as Kabuto showcased against Kiba [120]. Like _Ranshinshō_, both of these jutsu require only the slightest touch to apply, making a partial hit from Tsunade all the more dangerous.

Medical _ninjutsu_ may not be the only factor that can aid Tsunade in close-quarters combat; medical _knowledge_     alone may grant her an in-depth understanding of the body's pressure     points and other vulnerabilities. Whilst it is to be expected of any     ninja to know where the body's vitals are located, Tsunade's  knowledge    of the human body likely surpasses the average ninja's [121].     With this, she can not only determine and optimise which points of  the body to   attack, but also which points of her own body to defend.  This   knowledge  may have been put to use when Tsunade knocked Shizune  out   cold without  inflicting significant injury []. 

Another factor we should consider is the potential for Katsuyu to play a     role in Tsunade's fights. Although Katsuyu and all its associated    jutsu  may not constitute close-quarters combat - let alone form a part    of Tsunade's_ personal_ repertoire - it can have a  profound   effect upon her  performance in a close-quarters skirmish  nonetheless.   Katsuyu can serve  as an added distraction to enemies,  providing   openings for Tsunade to  take advantage of. In fact, the  advantage of   working in numbers is often  underestimated; avoiding  Tsunade's blows   becomes much more difficult  when her opponent also has  to worry about a   giant, acid-spitting slug on  the loose. The fact that  Katsuyu's  attacks  can be just as lethal as  Tsunade's means their opponent will  not have the luxury of simply focusing on one of the two to avoid. 

Moreover, Katsuyu's abilities seem almost perfectly tailored to provide     distractions, create openings, and generally complement Tsunade's     close-quarters fighting. Katsuyu's sheer size allows her to create     earthquakes and cause debris to fly with each body slam [123],     both of which can potentially throw enemies off balance (similar to     what Tsunade can do with her strength; see 'Factor 1: Tsunade's     strength'). Katsuyu can also use _Zesshi Nensan_ to spit acid, forcing enemies to dodge with nothing less than a _Shunshin no Jutsu_ due to the sizeable area-of-effect of the jutsu [124].     This attack may also serve to further restrict enemy movement by     forming pools of corrosive acid upon the ground. Katsuyu itself can     split into thousands of bunshin using _Katsuyu Daibunretsu_ [125],     each capable of serving as a distraction simply by getting in the     enemy's way, if nothing else. Katsuyu's extraordinary durability and     melding ability would certainly prove invaluable in helping it achieve     this [126].

The location of the battle may also play a critical role in     determining Tsunade's close-quarters lethality. As Kabuto noted,     fighting in a cramped location against a ninja like Tsunade can be  dangerously disadvantageous [].     In a tight location like Tanzaku Castle, there are plenty of walls   and   physical barriers that may hinder a combatant during  close-quarters combat.  Whilst   Tsunade, with her superhuman strength,  can bash through these  physical   barriers with ease, other combatants  may struggle to deal  with the   restrictiveness, finding themselves  cornered and thus an  easier target   for Tsunade [128].     Additionally, physical barriers may serve as 'weapons' for Tsunade  to    use, increasing the potential for debris damage. Enemies must  suffer not only the force of Tsunade's  hits,   but also the force of  being propelled into hard and potentially  harmful   structures.  Fighting indoors is even more advantageous for  Tsunade, as   she can  use her strength to literally bring the entire  building or   structure  down upon opponents if need be [129].


*Conclusion*

Tsunade is, first and foremost, a ninja. As a ninja she is expected to     do combat; even as a medical ninja, combat is often unavoidable during  missions, particularly for higher-ranked undertakings. During times of  war, there are squads that are    completely devoted to medical relief,  as well as medics _within_ combat squads [130].     We know that Tsunade herself was not always confined to these   'medical   relief squads' and hospitals, and was often engaged on  assignments that sent her to  and even   beyond enemy lines [131][132],     undoubtedly exposing her to a great deal of combat. As touched    upon  in 'Factor 4: Tsunade's anticipation', the fact that Tsunade's    reputation  extends past her medical abilities strongly implies that her     participation during missions and wars also involved a great deal of     fighting, not to mention the fearsome reputation her title as one of   the   Sannin holds []. It is my belief that Tsunade is a very capable fighter _and_ a great support unit/medical ninja - after all, why should one preclude the other [134]? Tsunade's even refers to herself as "not just a medical ninja" [], forcing Uchiha Madara to acknowledge her fighting prowess [].

I hope with the above that I have proven that Tsunade can indeed be a     formidable close-quarters combatant. Her strength allows her to cause     substantial damage with even just a partial hit, and throw enemies off     balance with terrain effects and debris damage. Her resilience  allows    her to continue fighting despite any injuries she may sustain,  and    counter-attack with maximal efficiency. Paired with her high  stamina,    this helps her wear opponents down and outlast them. Her  anticipatory skills    involve the application of her vast experience  and knowledge to  battle,   so as to evade enemy attacks and potentially  improve the execution of her own attacks. Her skill in taijutsu gives   her the   intuition she needs to perceive openings and take advantage   of them,  as  well as manoeuvre herself about in the heat of combat with   great   dexterity and precision. Finally, factors such as ninjutsu,  the potential for   teamwork and the location of the battle can all  affect how  dangerous   Tsunade can be in close-quarters. All of these  factors  combined not only   decreases her reliance upon speed, but may  also  prove incredibly  useful  when combating faster and more precise   opponents.

I believe that most people who are inclined     to  underestimate Tsunade do so not only because they do not perceive     her as particularly  agile, but also because many of the factors     discussed above impact Tsunade in ways that are often  difficult to     quantify or difficult to observe. It is difficult to see or say exactly _how_ much experience can factor into a battle. It is difficult to arbitrarily assign _which_  stage of a battle one ninja might begin to tire over another. Whilst  this is understandable, it is certainly no excuse to discredit her.

I am not saying that Tsunade as a combatant     stands among the highest of the high tier, nor do I believe that she   is   necessarily the most powerful or skilled ninja in close-combat. I    simply  believe that she can maintain a competitive presence upon any     battlefield, and that she can hold her own in close-quarters combat     against even stronger or more swift opponents. Despite everything I  have    written above, I do believe that there is a certain threshold  where   all the above factors can no longer make up for a gap in speed    between  Tsunade and her opponent. Of course, if an opponent is fast    enough and  has methods of circumventing or nullifying these   factors,  Tsunade  will ultimately have very little chance of prevailing   in a   close-quarters duel against them. The fact remains, however, that   for _most_ ninja, a close-quarters encounter with Tsunade would spell certain death.


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## Puppetry (Jul 12, 2011)

Great Essay, Suu. +reps.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 12, 2011)

Woah :WOW

5 stars and i'll rep ya as soon as i can, this is just brilliant :WOW


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## Intus Legere (Jul 12, 2011)

Suu is the author. 

I don't even need to read it to tell that these words are entirely irrefutable.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 12, 2011)

Excellent. Reps without a question.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 12, 2011)

^Agree with the above. Suu's threads = win. 

+Reps!


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 12, 2011)

I got half way through, so like you asked i will not be debating against you or anything, although i do have a question.

How long did it take you to make this?


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## dream (Jul 12, 2011)

Can't disagree with the essay.


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## Suu (Jul 12, 2011)

Thanks for the wonderful comments lads and ladettes! =)



RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> I got half way through, so like you asked i will not be debating against you or anything, although i do have a question.
> 
> How long did it take you to make this?


I appreciate your discretion, RumbleKing Yoshitsune. This whole thing (yes, this is only part of it) has been an on-and-off project for a couple of months already. Ironically, I got the bulk of it done during my exam period, when I was looking for any excuse not to study whilst in front of my computer.

I hope that you'll eventually find the time and/or willpower to read it all; it's always a pleasure debating with you.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 12, 2011)

Suu said:


> Thanks for the wonderful comments lads and ladettes! =)
> 
> 
> I appreciate your discretion, RumbleKing Yoshitsune. This whole thing (yes, this is only part of it) has been an on-and-off project for a couple of months already. Ironically, I got the bulk of it done during my exam period, when I was looking for any excuse not to study whilst in front of my computer.
> ...



Oh i will Read all of it, just not at the moment.

I do agree with what your doing i have no love for tsunade, but even i can clearly see in most cases people are just out-right writing tsunade off because they do not like her. Or come up with some excuse like, she was getting beat by kabuto no way she can beat X character.

Anyway i will be sure to read the entire thing today, and will commit on it when i do.


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## Synn (Jul 12, 2011)

Thanks for posting this, Suu. 

Will read more tomorrow and I'll rep you now.


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## shinethedown (Jul 12, 2011)

There are not enough gif's to describe how awesome that essay is. The moment I can I  +reps


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## maltyy (Jul 12, 2011)

Jesus 

Didn't even read it and I'm repping you anyways. I don't think anyone can argue with that.


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## Necessary Evil (Jul 12, 2011)

Nice thread Suu will give you rep as soon as im able to


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## Barioth (Jul 12, 2011)

I think what makes Tsunade a hindrance is her Medical Nin stats. But anyway props. + Reps


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## Marco (Jul 12, 2011)

An amazing essay. One that I doubt will have too much resistance because:

1. It IS pretty much irrefutable.
2. You're not directly comparing two characters, which is pretty much all that people in KL like to argue about these days.


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## Summers (Jul 12, 2011)

maltyy said:


> Jesus
> 
> Didn't even read it and I'm repping you anyways. I don't think anyone can argue with that.



Same here. This is epic. How long did this take? This is getting nominated for thread of the month once I  finished reading it.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jul 12, 2011)

Great thread Suu, though I've must have read at least 50% of this before in one of your posts in a Tsunade thread


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## MSAL (Jul 12, 2011)

One of the best essays ive seen anyone write for a while. This is also one of your best essays if not your best piece.

Very intelligently written, backed up completely, compelling, and very imformative.

+ reps to you Brandon.


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## SaVaGe609 (Jul 12, 2011)

Currently reading A Streetcar Named Desire but I'll pick this up as soon as I'm done 



But seriously, nice work


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## Yuna (Jul 12, 2011)

Common sense is common sense. Too bad common sense isn't so common anymore, especially not on Narutoforums.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm here to support Suu, and express my hatred of Tsunade.


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## Turrin (Jul 12, 2011)

@Suu

I agree with the general premise of this thread, Tsunade is perhaps thee most underestimated character in the Naruto-fan community. It is obvious from comments made in the manga that at least in Part I Tsunade was suppose to be an incredibly stronger Shinobi. Ebisu and the Data-book both comment on the fact that all of the Sannin (not just Jiriaya and Orochimaru) are seen by a-lot of Shinobi as so stronger that the only way they can be defeated is if another Sannin is involved. Kisame indicates that the Sannin title that Tsunade also shares is respected enough that even being hailed as a 7 Swordsmen of the mist or of the Uchiha clan pales in comparison. The Elders and Jiriaya clearly believed that Tsunade was strong enough to act as a war deterrent to other countries who were perhaps planning on invading Konoha after the events of the Chuunin Exams Arc. Furthermore Jiriaya in Part I even went so far as saying that no one could stand shoulder to shoulder with Tsunade in regards to medical ninjutsu, *as well as battle* and Orochimaru who was perfectly comfortable arrogantly boasting about his ability to defeat Jiriaya during the Sannin Duel, had no clue how he'd perform against Tsunade.

In-fact back in Part I Tsunade was perhaps thee most hyped character aside from Prime Hiruzen and Minato, considering Ebisu and the DB imply that Tsunade at least has a chance of defeating ether of the two Sannin and Jiraiya's statement could perhaps imply that she is thee most skilled Sannin. Even in Part II Tsunade has her fair share of hype. Nagato states that all *three* Sannin, not just Jiriaya and Orochimaru have unique abilities, implying that Tsunade very likely has her own unique slug technique similar to Jiriaya's SM and Orochimaru's white snake. Also in Part II Tsunade was still considered the most suitable person for the role of Hokage despite how powerful Kakashi has become in Part II.  

When it comes to Tsunade's skills, the one thing people seemingly overlook is that Tsunade is a fighter much like Sasori where she only really needs one attack to defeat her opponent. In Part II we can see how greatly Sakura's average 3.5 in strength is enhanced by Tsunade's Ōkashō technique to the point where she can KO large summons, destroy the extremely durable Hiroku with ease, and shatter the ground. Tsunade has a 5 indicating her strength is super human strength even w/o the Ōkashō technique, so its not surprising that Orochimaru believes a single square hit from Tsunade could kill even Kabuto, a man who managed to tank rasengan. Besides Physical strength Tsunade can also stop a person from moving properly or all together via Ranshinshō simply by touching them, which means certain defeat when facing someone with Tsunade titanic strength. 

Beyond that Tsunade has her odorless and tasteless poison that was able to bring even Jiraiya to his knees which she can lace her weapons with and Katsuya's acid which can eat through even boulders, providing yet another way in which Tsunade can defeat the opposition in a single hit. Finally perhaps the most overlooked and hax move Tsunade has is the Medical Ninjutsu she was about to Oneshot Orochimaru with, if not for Kabuto's interjection. Whatever the hell that Jutsu was, that could kill someone like Orochimaru, just by touching him is pretty dam frightening.

Despite all of this Tsunade is underestimated to a great degree on these forums, for a few reasons:

1. Kabuto fighting evenly with Tsunade in their battle. 
2. Tsunade not having the epic final battle her fellow Sannin have had yet
3. Poor translations
4. Her being a medic in the Pain Arc

No 1 is a very silly reason to underestimate Tsunade considering Tsunade clearly was not going all out against Kabuto, since her will to fight was pretty much gone at that point and replaced with her crippling fear of blood. Had Tsunade been going all out their is nothing to suggest Kabuto could keep pace with her and every reason to believe that he could not, considering that Kabuto was stated to be no stronger than Kakashi and if Tsunade was merely a Kakashi "level" shinobi there would be no reason for the elders and Jiriaya to go out of there way to find and convince Tsunade to become the Godaime Hokage when they already had Kakashi who could be nominated for the position. 

No 2 is the biggest problem since Tsunade only has part I feats to judge her combat prowess on and Kishi has power-scaled things in part II significantly, but just because Kishi hasn't shown her fight all out yet in Part II does not mean he's not going to and it doesn't mean that we should ignore that Kishi has implied all throughout the manga that she is an incredibly powerful shinobi at least within the same tier as her fellow Sannin. Nor is it fair for people to compare characters who fought extensively in Part II to Tsunade who has only fought briefly in Part I and declare them superior.

When it comes to No 3 i'm referring to the supposed statement of Kabuto being stronger than Tsunade in her prime, when in reality the statement refers to his battle senses, I.E. genius not strength. Kabuto is a greater genius than Tsunade, which should not surprise anyone considering what he's done with Orochimaru's power in part II, but nothing ever indicated that Kabuto was stronger than Tsunade in Part I.

No 4 comes from people failing to understand the manga. Tsunade knew that Pain had defeated Jiraiya another one of and perhaps the strongest legendary sannin , thus she knew it would take someone who surpassed Jiriaya to have a chance of defeating Pain and as supporting characters are one to do she laid her faith with the MC Naruto accomplishing this by training with Jiriaya's former master and resigned herself to protect the villagers until he arrived. Now of course this places a limit on Tsunade's strength, I.E. it shows that she's not much stronger than Jiriaya to the point where she believes she could succeed where he failed, but Tsunade could still be equal, only slightly weaker, or even slightly stronger than Jiriaya, so she could still be and indeed is indicated to be an incredibly strong shinobi despite her believing Naruto stood a better chance against Pain then she did. 

All in all Tsunade should at least be in the same ball park as her fellow legendary sannin in strength, if not perhaps slightly stronger and I believe she will prove this in this war. Now with that said I will agree in defense of people arguing against Tsunade being strong that if you are merely going by feats, while Tsunade's feats are underestimated, they have yet to hold up to her hype, but my counter argument to that is quite simply that Tsunade has yet to fight all out in Part II or for that matter the entire manga, so its not wise to judge her true strength based on feats.


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## Lightysnake (Jul 12, 2011)

Freaking win, Suu


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## hutman (Jul 12, 2011)

All this and you didn't even mention her boobies even once.


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## Kingnaruto (Jul 12, 2011)

+ reps for this, you have just pointed out why she is a tai jutsu beast. To add insult to injury nothing stops her using Sōzō Saisei and engaging in any tai jutsu battle, she would win 9 times out of 10.


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## Espoel (Jul 12, 2011)

Yes yes everyone is saying good thread Suu! Good essay Suu! I agree completely Suu! Full of truth Suu! 

Tomorrow or the day after tomorrrow they are all going to say "lolTsunade".

Well done for the effort! Not interested in the character though. :/

How much time did you spend?


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## DanE (Jul 12, 2011)

very good essay, as much as I much disappointment I have for Tsunade I cant deny most of this.


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## Maerala (Jul 12, 2011)

All the chances you had and you finally post it when I'm sleeping.  Naww, it's good you finally did. 

I can attest to how hard he worked on this, and for how long. I'm glad it's been well-received.


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## Sera (Jul 12, 2011)

Wow, this is amazing! You've organised everything out so well! Fantastic job!


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 12, 2011)

+++ Reps

Finally. I hope people will acknowledge that Tsunade is at least on par with Jiraya and Orochimaru


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## DoflaMihawk (Jul 12, 2011)

Reps for you just for the sheer amount of effort you must've put into this.


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## Espoel (Jul 12, 2011)

^Sorry to be a jerk but that is funny! 

Ok, I couldn't handle myself. Sorry.


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## DoflaMihawk (Jul 12, 2011)

Espoel said:


> ^Sorry to be a jerk but that is funny!
> 
> Ok, I couldn't handle myself. Sorry.



What? What's so funny?

I ain't gettin it mate.


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## Espoel (Jul 12, 2011)

It was directed at the post above.


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## Kotoamatsukami (Jul 12, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> +++ Reps
> 
> Finally. I hope people will acknowledge that Tsunade is at least on par with Jiraya and Orochimaru



at least? come on..


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## Meruem (Jul 12, 2011)

+reps

 Great essay.


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## Perseverance (Jul 12, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> +++ Reps
> 
> Finally. I hope people will acknowledge that Tsunade is at least on par with Jiraya and Orochimaru



I wonder if anyone even bothered to read it properly or with rational thinking.



> She was presumably able to keep up with A, a ninja of purportedly great speed even without his Raiton shroud [7]



That's where I stopped. I mean, that could've been Chouji and he would've been right behind Raikage. No manga like Naruto is going to be that realistic, where Tsunade will arrive 10 minutes later all breathless. 

Imo assumptions and exagerations. We know Tsunade can be dangerous in close combat due to her strength, but realistically speaking, against a top ninja who has experience and speed (including quick reflexes), I don't see how Tsunade would be able to win, unless she's able to somehow outlast the opponent in stamina. 

If she really did have even a "decent" amount of speed, combined with her deadly strength she would've completly destroyed the likes of Kabuto and Orochimaru (in close combat), who both in their own respects aren't even that fast. But it didn't quite turn out that way.


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## Marco (Jul 12, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> I wonder if anyone even bothered to read it properly or with rational thinking.



I see.



> That's where I stopped. I mean, that could've been Chouji and he would've been right behind Raikage. No manga like Naruto is going to be that realistic, where Tsunade will arrive 10 minutes later all breathless.



So you're one of the few who didn't even bother to read the essay properly or at all.

Anyway, addressing your point; it's more important that Naruto and B didn't even notice their approach. The fact is that it WASN'T Chouji. It was Tsunade.



> Imo assumptions and exagerations. We know Tsunade can be dangerous in close combat due to her strength, but realistically speaking, against a top ninja who has experience and speed (including quick reflexes), I don't see how Tsunade would be able to win, unless she's able to somehow outlast the opponent in stamina.



If you continue reading the essay instead of stopping at the part about Tsunade keeping up with A, then I'd take it seriously when you say everything in the essay is an assumption or exaggeration. You haven't even read a tenth of the essay.



> If she really did have even a "decent" amount of speed, combined with her deadly strength she would've completly destroyed the likes of Kabuto and Orochimaru (in close combat), who both in their own respects aren't even that fast. But it didn't quite turn out that way.



You're arguing without even reading the essay. The primary point of this essay is that speed isn't everything. Not just that Tsunade is "fast enough".

As for the Kabuto and Oro argument, please read the essay and you'll see that everything is addressed.


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## Summers (Jul 12, 2011)

Wow what a read, I finished reading it properly, This makes tsunade look good. All she needs not is a fight prove herself to the naysayers. I am still reading the links to the other essays threads about speed and sakura. Anyways you deserve this reps.


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## Skaddix (Jul 12, 2011)

Bee is not a sensor and the fact Tsunade was unable to intervene in the fight proves she does not have the speed to compete.


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## Suu (Jul 12, 2011)

Once again, I am humbled by all your wonderful comments! Thanks everybody!



WolfPrinceKouga said:


> Great thread Suu, though I've must have read at least 50% of this before in one of your posts in a Tsunade thread


How very observant of you! I admit, the skeleton/structure of this essay is based off one of my earlier posts in the Battledome...but I haven't posted that for over a year. @_@



Turrin said:


> @Suu
> 
> I agree with the general premise of this thread, Tsunade is perhaps thee most underestimated character in the Naruto-fan community. It is obvious from comments made in the manga that at least in Part I Tsunade was suppose to be an incredibly stronger Shinobi.
> ...
> Also in Part II Tsunade was still considered the most suitable person for the role of Hokage despite how powerful Kakashi has become in Part II.


Very, very true Turrin. I tried not to factor too much hype into my essay (despite there being quite a lot of it available for use), but the important ones did inevitably get a mention.



> When it comes to Tsunade's skills, the one thing people seemingly overlook is that Tsunade is a fighter much like Sasori where she only really needs one attack to defeat her opponent.
> ...
> Whatever the hell that Jutsu was, that could kill someone like Orochimaru, just by touching him is pretty dam frightening.


Indeed. I was going to mention her poison, but deemed it a little too out-of-character to mention in this section of the primer specifically. I did mention her poison/sleeping gas in another section (yet to posted).

Damn Turrin, you need to write one of your own character primers (or more, should I say?), I can already tell it'll be a great read judging from the depth of the response you're giving me now.



> Despite all of this Tsunade is underestimated to a great degree on these forums, for a few reasons:
> 
> 1. Kabuto fighting evenly with Tsunade in their battle.


This is true. 

I have my own feelings/beliefs about this battle, no doubt clouded by some degree of bias, but even I have to admit that Kabuto was fighting on _relatively_ even grounds with Tsunade, however short their close-quarters duel was. Of course, Tsunade had many handicaps during the battle, and Kabuto just as many advantages, but some might argue that this is nevertheless no excuse for a ninja of Kabuto's level to perform as he did against a ninja of Tsunade's caliber (or at least, the caliber her hype portrayed her at) - for which I would have no adequate rebuttal. Everybody is entitled to their different expectations of a character, and the manga in general.



> 2. Tsunade not having the epic final battle her fellow Sannin have had yet


Ah, this is both a blessing and a bane for us Tsunade fans. A blessing in that it is primarily what gives us hope for her future and I daresay what empowers us to continue reading the manga as a whole, and a bane because it raises our expectations and anxieties to extraordinary levels whenever Kishimoto dangles her as bait in front of us (the recent Raikage vs. Naruto and Bee fiasco, for instance, or even the Pain Invasion Arc).



> 3. Poor translations


Ugh, yes!



> 4. Her being a medic in the Pain Arc


Aye. Everybody seems to have their opinion of her actions during the arc; admittedly, purely from a fan's point of view, I was disappointed that she did not fight. However, I did see some logic behind her actions during the arc.



> All in all Tsunade should at least be in the same ball park as her fellow legendary sannin in strength, if not perhaps slightly stronger and I believe she will prove this in this war. Now with that said I will agree in defense of people arguing against Tsunade being strong that if you are merely going by feats, while Tsunade's feats are underestimated, they have yet to hold up to her hype, but my counter argument to that is quite simply that Tsunade has yet to fight all out in Part II or for that matter the entire manga, so its not wise to judge her true strength based on feats.


Indeed. I'm saying that word a lot to your posts these days, aren't I? Anyways, my intent here was to show why - even with her current feats (including intangible feats like _experience_) - Tsunade is a formidable close-quarters combatant. If she attains more feats in the future, you can expect some significant updates to this primer. Thanks Turrin! 



Perseverance said:


> That's where I stopped. I mean, that could've been Chouji and he would've been right behind Raikage. No manga like Naruto is going to be that realistic, where Tsunade will arrive 10 minutes later all breathless.


First of all, it wasn't Chouji. It was Tsunade. You can postulate all you like about who would have or would not have kept up with the Raikage, but the fact of the matter is the Raikage had reason to hurry towards the target destination, and Tsunade arrived at the same time as him. Fullstop.

Plus, it's not like the manga has never entertained the possibility of two allies with different run speed capabilities attempting to keep up with one another; in the very same arc as my example, Bee openly struggled to keep up with Naruto, despite the two of them setting out from the same location with a common goal.

You must also respect my wording of that particular line. She was _presumably_ able to keep up with A's _purportedly_ great speed. I did not lay it down as if it were the irrefutable law; I merely used it to point out that under some, still very logical interpretations of the manga, it is implied that Tsunade's run speed is quite high.

Anyways, to echo Marco's words, I was hoping not to get embroiled in a Tsunade speed debate in this thread. The purpose of this essay was to show why Tsunade is not as reliant upon speed as other ninja, after all. I do hope you'll continue reading, simply for the sake of clarifying your preconception of this essay if nothing else.



> Imo assumptions and exagerations. We know Tsunade can be dangerous in close combat due to her strength, but realistically speaking, against a top ninja who has experience and speed (including quick reflexes), I don't see how Tsunade would be able to win, unless she's able to somehow outlast the opponent in stamina.


Is this just a recap of my conclusion?



> If she really did have even a "decent" amount of speed, combined with her deadly strength she would've completly destroyed the likes of Kabuto and Orochimaru (in close combat), who both in their own respects aren't even that fast. But it didn't quite turn out that way.


There were other factors to consider in those battles. I'm sure you're well aware of them, and if you're not, I can direct you to a handful of resourceful Kabuto vs. Tsunade analysis threads.



Skaddix said:


> Bee is not a sensor and the fact Tsunade was unable to intervene in the fight proves she does not have the speed to compete.


This is true, and I would never question the fact that Bee is faster than Tsunade. 

Having said that, I don't believe your comparison is entirely relevant. The Raikage was (presumably) unshrouded during his pursuit of Bee and Naruto, for one. Secondly, I do not deny that the Raikage may not have been travelling at his maximum unshrouded speed with Tsunade at his side; the example was to illustrate that Tsunade kept up with a Raikage who had incentive to hurry.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 12, 2011)

The only thing i can say is good job Suu. ^_^


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## Skaddix (Jul 12, 2011)

Fine then Suu all is agreed.


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## Soul (Jul 12, 2011)

Classic Suu.


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## Sans (Jul 13, 2011)

You clearly went over the ten thousand character limit.


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## Crow Master Apprentice (Jul 13, 2011)

What a awesome essay for Tsunade.

Rep


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## Helios (Jul 13, 2011)

Without a doubt you have dedicated a significant amount of time for this thread and i respect that.I wont read all of this though.I chose some paragraphs that i thought would have "problems" (well in my point of view).

-The example you use with Shizune has to do with her reflexes, not speed.
-The example you use with Raikage.I could reverse that and say that he had to "keep up" with her slower pace.

-The "partial hits" analysis is interesting and logical.However so far it is not supported by manga evidence which in the end is what truly matters otherwise coversations are only theoritical and therefore extremely subjective.There are some boundaries that the author sets into consideration of the readers.To put it simply you are talking completely out of context here which is of course rational but not acceptable till the author proves that he thinks the same.

-Your statements are inconsistent.
1.Effective evasion is mostly a result of battle experience
2.Tsunade taught Sakura evasion
3.However experience cannot be a subject of training
Evasion is the result of the ablity to combine speed and reflexes.

Experience is knowledge.Knowledge has many different points of review and therefore should not be considered as a whole but on the contrary ,fragmented into certain fields.Otherwise it cannot serve as an applicable argument.Tsunade has battle experience but what kind of experience exactly?Had she faced many opponents with Kekke Genkai?What kind of?Had she had to face again such opponents so that we could form a clear view about how effectively did she apply the previously gained knowledge?

There are some general principles of course but that is taken for granted a priori for any capable ninja.

Considering the above i will have to add that Tsunade is intelligent as far as Medic ninjutsu are concerned.This is irrelevant.There is no casual relationship between this and her prowess in the battlefield which has yet to be proved.

Tsunade is not underestimated.The general opinion reflects what the author has decided to talk about her so far at least.One who claims that right now Tsunade is not equal by any way shape or form with her predecessors is not biased.You have admitted that it is necessary to see her in battle in part 2.


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## Marco (Jul 13, 2011)

Helios said:


> -The example you use with Shizune has to do with her reflexes, not speed.



Not quite, in my opinion. Tsunade was able to "blitz" Shizune before Shizune could even react. So it at least shows that Tsunade is capable of blitzing people with higher speed statistic than her. Secondly, yes; the example has to do with reflexes as well, mainly Shizune's. But reflexes are also a part of speed. eg: If Minato and A didn't have such fast reflexes, their speed wouldn't have been nearly as effective.



> -The example you use with Raikage.I could reverse that and say that he had to "keep up" with her slower pace.



Three things to note here:
1. They were in a hurry. They didn't just have to reach a location either. They had to intercept a moving party.
2. Naruto and B didn't even realize their approach until they were right there.
3. It isn't a definitive example of Tsunade being super fast. The OP is not arguing that Tsunade is as fast as A.



> -The "partial hits" analysis is interesting and logical.However so far it is not supported by manga evidence which in the end is what truly matters otherwise coversations are only theoritical and therefore extremely subjective.There are some boundaries that the author sets into consideration of the readers.To put it simply you are talking completely out of context here which is of course rational but not acceptable till the author proves that he thinks the same.



Partial hits have been used in the manga a lot. Albeit usually with weapons and ranged attacks but saying it's not supported by manga evidence is just inaccurate. So the OP is definitely not speaking out of context here.

Also, I do not remember for sure but I do recall Kishi stressing on partial hits in some hand to hand fight as well. I think in Part 1.



> -Your statements are inconsistent.
> 1.Effective evasion is mostly a result of battle experience
> 2.Tsunade taught Sakura evasion
> 3.However experience cannot be a subject of training
> Evasion is the result of the ablity to combine speed and reflexes.



I think there might be some confusion here.

1. OP is not saying that effective evasion can only be achieved via battle experience. No. He is arguing that while reflexes and speed are very important in evasion, battle experience can help a lot to. If you have more experience, there's a higher chance you'll be able to anticipate an opponent's attacks and evade.

2. "However experience cannot be a subject of training". I do not recall the OP saying anything like this anywhere.

3. The three points you've listed. I don't see how they are inconsistent with each other.



> Experience is knowledge.Knowledge has many different points of review and therefore should not be considered as a whole but on the contrary ,fragmented into certain fields.Otherwise it cannot serve as an applicable argument.Tsunade has battle experience but what kind of experience exactly?Had she faced many opponents with Kekke Genkai?What kind of?Had she had to face again such opponents so that we could form a clear view about how effectively did she apply the previously gained knowledge?
> 
> There are some general principles of course but that is taken for granted a priori for any capable ninja.
> 
> Considering the above i will have to add that Tsunade is intelligent as far as Medic ninjutsu are concerned.This is irrelevant.There is no casual relationship between this and her prowess in the battlefield which has yet to be proved.



Keep in mind that OP is specifically talking about _battle experience_ in a lot of his essay. So your point about experience being made up of different fields in general is moot.

And he has adequately supported his claims that Tsunade not only is an experienced medic but an extremely experienced combatant as well.

Saying that she only excels in medical ninjutsu when the manga has stressed on her fighting abilities over and over is an injustice to the character.



> Tsunade is not underestimated.The general opinion reflects what the author has decided to talk about her so far at least.One who claims that right now Tsunade is not equal by any way shape or form with her predecessors is not biased.You have admitted that it is necessary to see her in battle in part 2.



Here, I have to completely disagree with you. If you're saying Tsunade is not underestimated, then either you're biased (in which case, I am sad I wasted time replying to your post) or you're not acquainted with the hate Tsunade receives on these boards.

OP has already said this in his essay but I'll mention it again. When you have threads where pre time skip gateless Lee is pretty much being stated to be Tsunade's superior in battle (and this is not just one guy), then you have Tsunade being grossly underestimated. And this isn't the end of it. The general opinion of her battle capabilities is not very accurate.


Awesome avatar, by the way.


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## Suu (Jul 13, 2011)

Komnenos said:


> You clearly went over the ten thousand character limit.


Who let it slip? 



Helios said:


> Without a doubt you have dedicated a significant amount of time for this thread and i respect that.I wont read all of this though.I chose some paragraphs that i thought would have "problems" (well in my point of view).


Thanks Helios, I appreciate the time you spent reading and writing this response. =)

Marco has already answered a lot of your concerns (kudos to Marco, by the way), perhaps more adequately than I ever could, but I'd like to take the time to add some of my own touches here and there. You can compound the following responses with Marco's if you want my overall opinion on what you've written, though.



> -The example you use with Shizune has to do with her reflexes, not speed.


I suppose everybody has their own definition of the word "speed", and Kishimoto has certainly done nothing to set one in stone, but I see "reflexes", "movement speed" and "attack speed" as under the umbrella term of "speed". There are probably a few other facets of speed we can group under this umbrella, but those are the main ones.

My point was, despite having a higher databook speed statistic and apparently being ready and willing to fight Tsunade, Shizune was still "blitzed" by Tsunade. Having said that, I fully acknowledge the fact that different people interpret databook statistics differently (and the fact that some people disregard them altogether), so I never intended the Shizune point to form the crux of my Tsunade speed argument. In fact, if you want the broader picture, I never wanted Tsunade's speed to be the focus of my essay at all. But I did bring it up, so your point is valid nonetheless.



> -The example you use with Raikage.I could reverse that and say that he had to "keep up" with her slower pace.


I think you're misinterpreting my words a little here. I did go out of my way to make the sentence ambiguous rather than decisive; she _supposedly_ kept up with his _purportedly_ high speed. This creates leeway for other interpretations of the manga to remain valid.

To expand upon my point, however, both the Raikage and Tsunade had reason to hurry towards their target destination, not to mention the fact that they were pursuing (perhaps not in the conventional sense of "chasing from behind", but close enough) moving targets at the time. Sure, it's possible that the Raikage slowed down to account for Tsunade's lesser speed, but if you look at the circumstantial evidence, it is equally as logical to assume that the Raikage had reason to travel at a reasonably quick pace. Throw in the fact that, in-character, the Raikage is a haughty and impatient man, having been known to speed ahead of his allies without a moment's thought, and the idea of him intentionally slowing himself down - at least substantially - for Tsunade becomes even more difficult to grasp.

I am sure he was not travelling at his maximum speed. We _know_ he wasn't - he didn't have his shroud active! But at the same time, I highly doubt he was slowing himself down a great deal for Tsunade. A little, perhaps, but certainly not enough to seem as sluggish as some people have portrayed Tsunade in the past. Either way, my argument was not to say that Tsunade could keep up with the Raikage in speed fullstop, but rather that she was able to move at a fast enough pace to keep up with him _in those circumstances_, and that their arrival was able to surprise two highly reflexive ninja. 



> The "partial hits" analysis is interesting and logical.However so far it is not supported by manga evidence which in the end is what truly matters otherwise coversations are only theoritical and therefore extremely subjective.There are some boundaries that the author sets into consideration of the readers.To put it simply you are talking completely out of context here which is of course rational but not acceptable till the author proves that he thinks the same.


It's interesting that you raise this point. I spend most of my time in the Battledome, where theoretical applications of logic and whatnot are actually quite valued by the community - when used appropriately, of course. For example, although Kishimoto has never explicitly stated or shown that wet sand in the Narutoverse is heavier and therefore more difficult for Gaara to control, Battledomers have for a long time accepted that water and other liquids could slow the approach of his sand. As this primer was written from a Battledomer's perspective, I believe the theoretical components of this essay are well and truly at home.

That said, it's not as if Kishimoto has completely ignored the existence of and difference between partial and full hits in his manga. Early in the manga it was explained that the Hyuuga Clan's _Jyuuken_ techniques could inflict critical damage with partial hits, and when Tsunade lands her decisive blow upon Orochimaru at the close of the Sannin Battle, Kabuto openly describes it as a "full hit". As Marco explained, we have also seen the difference between partial and full hits through the use of weaponry and other mediums in the manga; the Sandaime Kazekage puppet's _Satetsu_-based attacks immediately come to mind, for instance. So even from a pure manga standpoint, my partial hits argument has some relevance.



> -Your statements are inconsistent.
> 1.Effective evasion is mostly a result of battle experience


I did not say that. I said that the ability to anticipate attacks stems - at least partly, if not wholly - from experience and knowledge. Anticipating attacks _and_ high reflexes _and_ a whole bunch of other factors I did not care to explore in that section all go towards what most people would define as "evasion". As Marco puts it, "experience helps a lot". 

The "evasion" I referred to in my essay was anticipation-related evasion. Sorry if this was confusing.



> 2.Tsunade taught Sakura evasion
> 3.However experience cannot be a subject of training


It's not as if Sakura walked into her battle against Sasori and was able to evade all his attacks off the bat. She needed Chiyo to manoeuvre her about and help her dodge for the majority of the battle, in fact.

We can only guess what it was _exactly_ that Tsunade taught Sakura during their evasion classes. Judging from the way Sakura was observing Sasori, I'm guessing it would have had something to do with reading into enemy attacks. This is where experience comes into play; if you're an experienced ninja, you've already _read_ into many different attack patterns in the past, and know what to expect when facing opponents of similar styles.



> Experience is knowledge.Knowledge has many different points of review and therefore should not be considered as a whole but on the contrary ,fragmented into certain fields.Otherwise it cannot serve as an applicable argument.Tsunade has battle experience but what kind of experience exactly?Had she faced many opponents with Kekke Genkai?What kind of?Had she had to face again such opponents so that we could form a clear view about how effectively did she apply the previously gained knowledge?
> 
> There are some general principles of course but that is taken for granted a priori for any capable ninja.
> 
> Considering the above i will have to add that Tsunade is intelligent as far as Medic ninjutsu are concerned.This is irrelevant.There is no casual relationship between this and her prowess in the battlefield which has yet to be proved.


I have already provided evidence to suggest why Tsunade's experience - and, as you say, knowledge - is not limited to the field of medicine. 

If you're suggesting that Tsunade managed to get through over 1200 missions, almost 80% of which were B-ranked ("Jounin level") and above, and a period (if not two periods) of "great war" in which she was sent _beyond_ enemy lines on multiple occasions, and was _not_ directly exposed to open combat...well, let's just say that the odds are against you.

Pair this with the fact that a lot of Tsunade's reputation is non-medical related. Her very name inspired _fear _in the hearts of enemies far and wide, and Chiyo herself remembers Tsunade not only for her medical skills, but also for her strength and indomitable will. Jiraiya notes that both Tsunade's medical _and_ combat-related feats were of great importance during the great wars, and even Shikaku praises her for her strength. All these point to Tsunade _not_ being the meek and passive healer that many people like to paint her out to be.



> Tsunade is not underestimated.The general opinion reflects what the author has decided to talk about her so far at least.One who claims that right now Tsunade is not equal by any way shape or form with her predecessors is not biased.You have admitted that it is necessary to see her in battle in part 2.


I have seen Tsunade underestimated far too many times to believe a statement like that.

Kishimoto has gone out of his way to hype the title of Sannin and Hokage (and even Senju to some extent), and has even hyped Tsunade specifically. He has given Tsunade reasonable close-quarters combat feats as well as intangible feats (such as intelligence, experience, etc.), and has written his manga in a way that has left it open to reasonable applications of theory and logic - all of which, together, allows us to paint Tsunade out as a formidable force in close-quarters.

Despite this, many people continue to underestimate her in close-quarters. The gateless, pre-timeskip Lee example was just one of many. If you want more, I can dig some up to show you.


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## Helios (Jul 13, 2011)

Marco said:


> Not quite, in my opinion. Tsunade was able to "blitz" Shizune before Shizune could even react. So it at least shows that Tsunade is capable of blitzing people with higher speed statistic than her. Secondly, yes; *the example has to do with reflexes as well*, mainly Shizune's. But reflexes are also a *part of speed*. eg: If Minato and A didn't have such fast reflexes, their speed wouldn't have been *nearly as effective*.



Reflexes and speed are two different things that blend together since the one takes advantage of the other.I will mention an example : Naruto vs Sasuke in the VotE.Sasuke had troubles keeping up with Naruto's speed while in KM but after completing the 3-tomoe Sharingan things changed.Thanks to the prediction skills of the Doujutsu that enhances reflexes he was able to overcome Naruto.His speed remained unchanged however.

Shizune is a ninja that supposedly is faster, according to the databook, than Tsunade, but obviously lacks in the reflexes department.Tsunade took advantage of that.Therefore she was able to blitz an incapable (on this field) ninja.Thats all there is to it, not a speed feat.




Marco said:


> 1. OP is not saying that effective evasion can only be achieved via battle experience. No. He is arguing that while reflexes and speed are very important in evasion, battle experience can help a lot to. If you have more experience, there's a higher chance you'll be able to anticipate an opponent's attacks and evade.



"anticipate an attack and react accordingly" =  evasion
"simply requires a great deal of experience and knowledge"

I am referring to those two sentences.



Marco said:


> 2. "However experience cannot be a subject of training". I do not recall the OP saying anything like this anywhere.



"Tsunade was the one who *trained* Sakura in evasion over the time-skip"



Marco said:


> Keep in mind that OP is specifically talking about _battle experience_ in a lot of his essay. So your point about experience being made up of different fields in general is moot.




I talked as well about battle experience : "Tsunade *has battle experience* but what kind of experience exactly?Had she faced many opponents with Kekke Genkai?What kind of?Had she had to face again such opponents so that we could form a clear view about how effectively did she apply the previously gained knowledge?"

My point here was to show the following :
Since the OP is saying that evasion has to do with experience and experience is battle knowledge then the effectiveness of this ability is heavily dependant upon the kind of battle knowledge that Tsunade possesses in combination with her opponent.For example it could work against a MS Uchiha had she fought one before,against a Kekke Genkai user had she faced one before.Basically im playing the devils advocate trying to prove that even if indeed thats the meaning of evasion, it still is effective only when the circumstances favors it.




Marco said:


> Here, I have to completely disagree with you. If you're saying Tsunade is not underestimated, then either you're biased (in which case, I am sad I wasted time replying to your post) or you're not acquainted with the hate Tsunade receives on these boards.



My intention was not to defend all the posts that "fight" Tsunade.It would be foolish.I think i was specific when i said that she cannot be compared to the previous Hokage's.Whoever in my opinion shares this thought is not biased but on the contrary he follows exactly the evidence presented by the author.




Suu said:


> It's interesting that you raise this point. I spend most of my time in the Battledome, where theoretical applications of logic and whatnot are actually quite valued by the community - when used appropriately, of course. For example, although Kishimoto has never explicitly stated or shown that wet sand in the Narutoverse is heavier and therefore more difficult for Gaara to control, Battledomers have for a long time accepted that water and other liquids could slow the approach of his sand. As this primer was written from a Battledomer's perspective, I believe the theoretical components of this essay are well and truly at home.



It is rational alright but i hardly see it applicable because in truth chances are that if someone is able to avoid direct hits he should be able to avoid partial hits as well especially if you consider Tsunade's medium level of speed and the poweful opponents with whom we want to compare her to that usually are much faster.

Btw i did not answer the rest of the post because im satisified with the explanation you offered.


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## Distance (Jul 13, 2011)

Reps for the effort you put into this Suu. Well done.


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## Suu (Jul 13, 2011)

Helios said:


> It is rational alright but i hardly see it applicable because in truth chances are that if someone is able to avoid direct hits he should be able to avoid partial hits as well especially if you consider Tsunade's medium level of speed and the poweful opponents with whom we want to compare her to that usually are much faster.


It is much easier to avoid a full hit than it is to avoid a partial hit. That much is true. 

With Tsunade's level of speed _alone_, yes perhaps even a partial hit is asking too much (depending on the caliber of opponent you're matching her against). That is where I'd hope all the other factors I discussed in my essay would come into play, to help Tsunade land that crucial partial hit. Factors that aren't directly tied to speed.



> Btw i did not answer the rest of the post because im satisified with the explanation you offered.


Thanks, Helios. I do appreciate you playing the devil's advocate.


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## Marco (Jul 13, 2011)

Helios said:


> Reflexes and speed are two different things that blend together since the one takes advantage of the other.I will mention an example : Naruto vs Sasuke in the VotE.Sasuke had troubles keeping up with Naruto's speed while im KM but after completing the 3-tomoe Sharingan things changed.Thanks to the prediction skills of the Doujutsu that enhances reflexes he was able to overcome Naruto.His speed remained unchanged however.
> 
> Shizune is a ninja that supposedly is faster, according to the databook, than Tsunade, but obviously lacks in the reflexes department.Tsunade took advantage of that.Therefore she was able to blitz an incapable (on this field) ninja.Thats all there is to it, not a speed feat.



I appreciate you treating speed and reflexes as different. I too follow this same logic when using databook statistics. i.e. the speed rating in the databook statistics refers to pure movement and attack speed (not even counting shunshin).

However, I do not discount reflexes completely. After all, your reflexes will always be faster than your pure speed.

Here, I will point to the more important part of my interpretation of the databook statistics and manga. Tsunade's speed rating isn't great. However, her reaction feats are top notch. And since I don't consider shunshin a part of the speed statistic, I find it very normal for a ninja with average pure speed but good reflexes to be able to blitz a faster ninja via shunshin. Also, being able to dodge/evade a faster ninja's attack.

So in the end, my point would be that her reflexes are very good. Not Minato or A good. But not bad either as some people like to treat her. She should be able to dodge/counter a lot of attacks which are faster than her pure speed.




> "anticipate an attack and react accordingly" =  evasion
> "simply requires a great deal of experience and knowledge"
> 
> I am referring to those two sentences.



I don't recall the OP saying that "anticipating an attack and reacting accordingly" is the only way of evading attacks. It is _one_ way of avoiding attacks. Another would be using pure reflexes and speed.




> "Tsunade was the one who *trained* Sakura in evasion over the time-skip"



How is this related to "However experience cannot be a subject of training" though?

The discussion is about Tsunade. Not Sakura. And while experience isn't the _only_ or even the _best_ means of attaining experience, it _is_ a very viable method of attaining experience.




> I talked as well about battle experience : "Tsunade *has battle experience* but what kind of experience exactly?Had she faced many opponents with Kekke Genkai?What kind of?Had she had to face again such opponents so that we could form a clear view about how effectively did she apply the previously gained knowledge?"



These are questions that have no definitive answer. However, the number of high ranked missions that she has completed as well as her being called the strongest female ninja (also being feared and respected throughout the ninja world) indicate to her having adequate battle experience. Definitely a lot more than most ninjas.



> My point here was to show the following :
> Since the OP is saying that evasion has to do with experience and experience is battle knowledge then the effectiveness of this ability is heavily dependant upon the kind of battle knowledge that Tsunade possesses in combination with her opponent.For example it could work against a MS Uchiha had she fought one before,against a Kekke Genkai user had she faced one before.Basically im playing the devils advocate trying to prove that even if indeed thats the meaning of evasion, it still is effective only when the circumstances favors it.



Keep in mind that the topic is about Tsunade's illustriousness in _close quarters combat_. In which case, the opponent having special attacks (be it from kekkai genkai) doesn't matter as much. Especially when you consider how rare ninjas with kekkai genkai are.

This is true for ranged combat as well, i.e. kekkai genkai being extremely rare and not having much of a difference in how the opponent evades the attack. In general, of course.




> My intention was not to defend all the posts that "fight" Tsunade.It would be foolish.I think i was specific when i said that she cannot be compared to the previous Hokage's.Whoever in my opinion shares this thought is not biased but on the contrary he follows exactly the evidence presented by the author.



I cannot speak of your intention, only of your actions. And you did state that "Tsunade is not underestimated". Which cannot be farther from the truth.

Whether you think Tsunade can be compared to previous hokages is different. This topic isn't arguing that Tsunade is stronger or as strong as previous hokages. It's arguing that Tsunade's effectiveness in close quarters combat is underestimated a lot on these boards.




> Btw i did not answer the rest of the post because im satisified with the explanation you offered.



I appreciate your intention to have a discussion where the parties are open to understanding the other's opinion.


----------



## Summers (Jul 13, 2011)

Man, some of you folks can type. The responses are longer than most threads.


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## Distance (Jul 13, 2011)

summers said:


> Man, some of you folks can type. The responses are longer than most threads.



Welcome to the Battledome.


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## Turrin (Jul 13, 2011)

Suu said:


> Damn Turrin, you need to write one of your own character primers (or more, should I say?), I can already tell it'll be a great read judging from the depth of the response you're giving me now.


Actually I just got a bunch of the Viz Volumes from my friend so I have been rereading the manga and I noticed that the Viz makes it seem like Tsunade is stronger than the current translations we have of Part I, which are pretty bad so I was going to write a thread about while its not confirmed that Kishi will make Tsunade as strong as her Sannin peers, the possibility is w/o a doubt their for him to do so given her hype in Part I and somethings in Part II, but since you made this thread I thought I would just post most of my thoughts here.



> I have my own feelings/beliefs about this battle, no doubt clouded by some degree of bias, but even I have to admit that Kabuto was fighting on _relatively_ even grounds with Tsunade, however short their close-quarters duel was. Of course, Tsunade had many handicaps during the battle, and Kabuto just as many advantages, but some might argue that this is nevertheless no excuse for a ninja of Kabuto's level to perform as he did against a ninja of Tsunade's caliber (or at least, the caliber her hype portrayed her at) - *for which I would have no adequate rebuttal.* Everybody is entitled to their different expectations of a character, and the manga in general.


Really you don't have an adequate rebuttal? The rebuttal is very easy, and exhausted, emotionally traumatized, and rusty Tsunade was fighting evenly with Kabuto w/o using her best techniques. Once Tsunade regained her WOF from Naruto and started using her better techniques it became apparent that Kabuto had absolutely no chance against her, since he's got nothing to take on Gensis of Rebirth or Katsuya.



> Indeed. I'm saying that word a lot to your posts these days, aren't I? Anyways, my intent here was to show why - even with her current feats (including intangible feats like experience) - Tsunade is a formidable close-quarters combatant. If she attains more feats in the future, you can expect some significant updates to this primer. Thanks Turrin!


Thank you


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 13, 2011)

Best thread Ive read in a long time. It will make an excellent reference as well! Fantastic work Suu. Genius.


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## Soul (Jul 13, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> I wonder if anyone even bothered to read it properly or with rational thinking.



You would be surprised.



summers said:


> Man, some of you folks can type. The responses are longer than most threads.



This thread is now the BD territory; and that's how some people roll there.



hitokugutsu said:


> Finally. I hope people will acknowledge that Tsunade is at least on par with Jiraiya and Orochimaru



What?
Tsunade is not on par with Jiraiya and Orochimaru, combat-wise.


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## Leon (Jul 13, 2011)

Very interesing read. I especially like how you went in great detail on the various elements of close quarter combat that are generally overlooked. I also like the fact you brought up a few commonly unknown facts like Shousen techniques ability to send targets into comatose and that good chakra control allows one to not waste chakra, the latter I which I had no knowledge of.  Very much inspiring. Perhaps i'll write a similar essay on Kabuto one day, who's general abilities, like Tsunade are often overlooked besides medical ninjutsu and Edo Tensei.


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## Seph (Jul 13, 2011)

> Many are quick to disregard Tsunade in close-quarters combat simply because she does not seem as speedy or precise as other combatants, such as Lee or Gai. Whilst this may be true, it does not necessarily make her any less dangerous in close-quarters.



In a manga where speed is everything, how on earth can you say that?


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## Marco (Jul 13, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> In a manga where speed is everything, how on earth can you say that?



Because speed is _not_ everything.


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## Summers (Jul 13, 2011)

Marco said:


> Because speed is _not_ everything.



True. People forget the best example of insane speed being almost useless.

Gaara vs Lee. Lee was fast and got through the sand defense, but there was another one under it. Lee got faster and more powerful and got through both sand defenses. But it was a clone, and Gaara came back and crushed a lee.

Tactics and clever use of ones Jutsu can defeat someone who is vastly superior in speed.


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## HighLevelPlayer (Jul 13, 2011)

I didn't read beyond the first post, but +rep for the simple fact that you wasted this much of your life on something you care about. That's passion.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 13, 2011)

Marco said:


> Because speed is _not_ everything.



i dont have to state the reasoning of why i disagree with what you said  , My Username alone proves my point


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## joshhookway (Jul 13, 2011)

Great Essay, now if only the people who underestimate Tsunade reads this lol


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## Sans (Jul 13, 2011)

Suu said:


> Who let it slip?



I did; I went through and counted every character. You're in clear violation of the ten thousand character limit. 

I am incredibly jealous, I have to split my posts when I go over. 

I'm in the process of writing up a detailed response Suu, but between lack of time on NF and the..... daunting size of your post, progress has been slow. 

Until then, expect silly posts. 



Soul said:


> This thread is now the BD territory; and that's how some people roll there.



To arms brethren! We claim this thread in the name of logic, deductive reasoning and wanking our favourite characters!


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## pilko (Jul 13, 2011)

i havent even started to read and im not sure if i will but wow u put alot of effort into that shit good stuff +reps


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## Soul (Jul 14, 2011)

Ahhh, VT's thread.
Also a very good one.


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## Seph (Jul 14, 2011)

> I do not deny that speed is important. But if you ever decide to read my essay, you'll find that I've taken the time to explain why these other factors can help Tsunade make up for her apparent "lack of speed".



Nothing can make up for a lack of speed. She was completely powerless in the fight between Naruto, A and Bee because of her lack of speed. Even if she's physically up to par, her lack of speed can't make up for anything.

The importance of speed is constantly mentioned in this manga, so unless she uses something to boost her speed, she'll always be below a certain tier. That thread was made in 2009, speed wasn't nearly as important as it is now.

It's really not nice to see people who suck up to you. They're just like OMG NICE THREAD IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO ARGUE WITH and give you a rep. I assure you that if a newbie posted the same thread, the majority wouldn't have the same opinion.


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## Marco (Jul 14, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> Nothing can make up for a lack of speed. She was completely powerless in the fight between Naruto, A and Bee because of her lack of speed. Even if she's physically up to par, her lack of speed can't make up for anything.



She was NOT powerless. She didn't even participate in the fight. It wasn't due to physical reasons. Heck, A even asked her to help him out. She was mentally conflicted about aiding either party.

Not saying that she could beat A, Naruto, or B. But she certainly wouldn't be powerless against them. Now THAT is gross underestimation of Tsunade.



> The importance of speed is constantly mentioned in this manga, so unless she uses something to boost her speed, she'll always be below a certain tier. That thread was made in 2009, speed wasn't nearly as important as it is now.



She DOES have something to boost her speed. Shunshin. Besides that, if faced with a much faster opponent; she's smart enough to not try and blitz. She can use Katsuyu to box the opponent in or rely on counter attacks. Again, not saying she will definitely be able to defeat any opponent much faster than her but yes, if her opponent _only_ has speed; I don't see why she couldn't win.



> It's really not nice to see people who suck up to you. They're just like OMG NICE THREAD IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO ARGUE WITH and give you a rep. I assure you that if a newbie posted the same thread, the majority wouldn't have the same opinion.



Holier than thou, is it?

It would do you good to respect others' opinions. If you think someone is wrong, that's fine. But saying people just agree with that someone because they want to suck up to that someone is an insult. And all because you disagree.


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## Seph (Jul 14, 2011)

> She was NOT powerless. She didn't even participate in the fight. It wasn't due to physical reasons. Heck, A even asked her to help him out. She was mentally conflicted about aiding either party.





I'M LETTING NARUTO THROUGH!



> She DOES have something to boost her speed. Shunshin.



Even Tenten can do that.



> She can use Katsuyu to box the opponent in or rely on counter attacks. Again, not saying she will definitely be able to defeat any opponent much faster than her but yes, if her opponent only has speed; I don't see why she couldn't win.



I didn't say she was completely useless, but there isn't a single ninja in the entire series I can think of with only speed.



> It would do you good to respect others' opinions. If you think someone is wrong, that's fine. But saying people just agree with that someone because they want to suck up to that someone is an insult. And all because you disagree.



I don't disagree with the essay, because I haven't even read it. I saw a sentence which I simply thought was wrong.

Most people here mindlessly agreed with the topic without reading it and gave him/her a rep. I don't have anything against Suu at all, but people are just really easy to manipulate and can't make their own opinions. It's simply the truth.

Have you heard of a phenomenon where most people don't make up their own political thoughts and simply vote for the most charismatic person? It's something like that.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 14, 2011)

Great read. Excellent thread.

Edit: For the record, speed is not everything. No stretch of the imagination will ever make that statement correct. Gaara vs Lee.


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## Marco (Jul 14, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> I'M LETTING NARUTO THROUGH!



I don't see the connection. After she decided this, B was already engaging A. And obviously the hokage would wait until there's no other choice before engaging the Raikage.



> Even Tenten can do that.



And Tsunade has shunshin feats as well. After the Cho Shinra Tensei for instance.



> I didn't say she was completely useless, but there isn't a single ninja in the entire series I can think of with only speed.



Yeah, and Tsunade doesn't just have super strength either.



> I don't disagree with the essay, because I haven't even read it. I saw a sentence which I simply thought was wrong.
> 
> Most people here mindlessly agreed with the topic without reading it and gave him/her a rep. I don't have anything against Suu at all, but people are just really easy to manipulate and can't make their own opinions. It's simply the truth.



So basically, you didn't read the essay and are calling out people who supported the OP. Did it occur to you that the people who didn't read the thread but still complimented the OP were probably doing it because of the effort he put into this? Not to "suck up" as you say.

You say _most_ people just mindlessly agreed without reading. Mind backing this up?



> Have you heard of a phenomenon where most people don't make up their own political thoughts and simply vote for the most charismatic person? It's something like that.



Politics, really? Charisma is a big part of politics but that's a different topic altogether. This analogy is just mildly accurate.


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## Seph (Jul 14, 2011)

Oh my god, you negged me? Wow, how mature of you. You accused me of taking things too personal, but don't you think acting as the guardian of this thread and negging me proves that you're the one taking things too personally?



> I don't see the connection. After she decided this, B was already engaging A. And obviously the hokage would wait until there's no other choice before engaging the Raikage.





That certainly indicates she was more than prepared to fight the Raikage, but she was unable to because of her speed. _She was powerless because of her speed._ You just can't argue against this, so don't even try to. Even your hero, Suu says she was too slow:

_Bee is not a sensor and the fact Tsunade was unable to intervene in the fight proves she does not have the speed to compete.

This is true_



> Yeah, and Tsunade doesn't just have super strength either.



I didn't even say that.



> So basically, you didn't read the essay and are calling out people who supported the OP. Did it occur to you that the people who didn't read the thread but still complimented the OP were probably doing it because of the effort he put into this? Not to "suck up" as you say.
> 
> You say most people just mindlessly agreed without reading. Mind backing this up?



_Woah

5 stars and i'll rep ya as soon as i can, this is just brilliant_

_Suu is the author.

I don't even need to read it to tell that these words are entirely irrefutable._

_^Agree with the above. Suu's threads = win.

+Reps! _

_Thanks for posting this, Suu.

Will read more tomorrow and I'll rep you now. _

_Jesus

Didn't even read it and I'm repping you anyways. I don't think anyone can argue with that._

_+++ Reps

Finally. I hope people will acknowledge that Tsunade is at least on par with Jiraya and Orochimaru_

Perseverance said: _I wonder if anyone even bothered to read it properly or with rational thinking._ Too true.

I suggest that you stop acting as the guardian of this thread, because Suu is more than capable of it.


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## Summers (Jul 14, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> Oh my god, you negged me? Wow, how mature of you. You accused me of taking things too personal, but don't you think acting as the guardian of this thread and negging me proves that you're the one taking things too personally?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ya probably go negged because you didn't bother to read the OP, but made arguments against the OP's points that may have been explained or understood if you did read it. 

Then you say people are sucking up to the author. For what purpose would people do this? What you posted is not proof of this. People who have read Suu threads before have confidence in the quality, those who did not finish reading the OP and praised it, appreciated the effort that was obviously put into it, with Just a glace I could tell it was put together well. Also if someone was already of the belief of Tsunade is competent or amazing in close combat they would agree with whats being said. Something I dont see often.In my case I speed read it, thought it was great, read in thoroughly later to see if I still agreed, I did, then repped. It can also be explain through something called hyperbole.

You dont have anything against Suu, but people viewing the thread are being manipulated?

He is not acting as guardian of the thread, He is taking time to respond diligently to someone who is insulting others, for not reading a thread that poster hasn't read themselves.


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## Seph (Jul 14, 2011)

> Ya probably go negged because you didn't bother to read the OP, but made arguments against the OP's points that may have been explained or understood if you did read it.



This is why he negged me: "Unnecessary accusations. It's a discussion about hypothetical superpowered ninjas. Don't see why you're taking things personally.".

Suu himself showed me parts of his essay, and they were far from satisfactory.



> Then you say people are sucking up to the author. For what purpose would people do this? What you posted is not proof of this.



For recognition? Respect? Just look at this:

_
Suu is the author.

I don't even need to read it to tell that these words are entirely irrefutable._

Not proof at all, right.



> People who have read Suu threads before have confidence in the quality, those who did not finish reading the OP and praised it, appreciated the effort that was obviously put into it, with Just a glace I could tell it was put together well. Last if someone was already of the belief of Tsunade is competent or amazing in close combat they would agree with whats being said. Something I dont see often.In my case I speed read it, thought it was great, read in thoroughly later to see if I still agreed, I did, then repped.



Which is why I said this: 

_I assure you that if a newbie posted the same thread, the majority wouldn't have the same opinion. _



> He is not acting as guardian of the thread, He is taking time to respond diligently to someone who is insulting others, for not reading a thread that poster hasn't read themselves.



He's been responding to several people since page 2.

_1.
a person who guards, protects, or preserves._

Sounds good enough to me.


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## Marco (Jul 14, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> Oh my god, you negged me? Wow, how mature of you. You accused me of taking things too personal, but don't you think acting as the guardian of this thread and negging me proves that you're the one taking things too personally?



Am I not allowed to neg anymore? I did not like how you were calling everyone who agreed with the OP pretty much a mindless drone so I negged you. Is it that much of a big deal? I've been negged over smaller things. You're only the 4th person I've ever negged so that says something, at least.



> That certainly indicates she was more than prepared to fight the Raikage, but she was unable to because of her speed. _She was powerless because of her speed._ You just can't argue against this, so don't even try to. Even your hero, Suu says she was too slow:
> 
> _Bee is not a sensor and the fact Tsunade was unable to intervene in the fight proves she does not have the speed to compete.
> 
> This is true_



She was prepared to fight A by then. But what could she do if A wanted to engage Naruto and Naruto was purposefully running away from Tsunade. He even says that. That he can't let Tsunade get involved. Were A to fight Tsunade instead, it'd be extremely wrong to say she'd be powerless. She'd probably lose, yes. But it wouldn't be an easy fight for A. Not by far. And she certainly wouldn't be powerless.

Someone like Lee could probably run away from Gaara in a battle. Does that mean Gaara is powerless against Lee?




> I didn't even say that.



You're missing the point here. You said speed is everything. So shouldn't a person who only has speed be easily able to defeat Tsunade according to you? To which you replied that there's noone in this manga who has only speed. The strength comment was just a way of saying that Tsunade isn't helpless either. She has ways to deal with speed. Definitely enough that she won't be powerless against any guy who can run faster than her.




> _Woah
> 
> 5 stars and i'll rep ya as soon as i can, this is just brilliant_



Does this indicate that the poster didn't read the thread?



> _Suu is the author.
> 
> I don't even need to read it to tell that these words are entirely irrefutable._



Does this indicate he didn't read it? Just that he thinks the essay will be irrefutable.



> _^Agree with the above. Suu's threads = win.
> 
> +Reps! _



Once again, does this indicate that he didn't read the thread?



> _Thanks for posting this, Suu.
> 
> Will read more tomorrow and I'll rep you now. _



Again. Is this an indication that the person didn't read the essay at all?



> _Jesus
> 
> Didn't even read it and I'm repping you anyways. I don't think anyone can argue with that._



Are these most of the people in this thread?



> _+++ Reps
> 
> Finally. I hope people will acknowledge that Tsunade is at least on par with Jiraya and Orochimaru_



I can again not see how this means that the poster didn't read the essay.


Anyway, this feels too much like getting into semantics just for the sake of arguing.

You said that most of the people who posted here didn't even read the thread and are sheeping. That they don't have their own opinions and are easy to manipulate. Seriously? I don't see how you got this from the couple of posts.

Like I said, even the people who agreed with the OP without reading the thread or complimented him did so because the essay obviously took a lot of effort and one can see that even without going through the whole essay.



> Perseverance said: _I wonder if anyone even bothered to read it properly or with rational thinking._ Too true.



Funny thing is that neither he nor you actually read the essay.



> I suggest that you stop acting as the guardian of this thread, because Suu is more than capable of it.



This is the kind of mentality that bugs me. Which is why I negged you as well. I'd neg you again, in fact but that would be pointless. I've already put my point across. Do not generalize people and believe that anyone whose opinion differs from yours is incapable of thinking on their own.

I'm not arguing you cause I feel a need to "guard" this thread. I'm arguing with you because I think you're wrong. It's a very simple distinction to make.




Sephiran said:


> This is why he negged me: "Unnecessary accusations. It's a discussion about hypothetical superpowered ninjas. Don't see why you're taking things personally.".



Yes. Unnecessary accusation would be the part where you called everyone easy to manipulate and sucking up to the OP.

I told you not to take things personally because you obviously are. You're insulting people themselves rather than their arguments.



> For recognition? Respect? Just look at this:
> 
> _
> Suu is the author.
> ...



Trust me when I say this. Intus. Intus does NOT need to suck up to anyone for respect or recognition. He's already one of the most respected members of the Battledome.




> Which is why I said this:
> 
> _I assure you that if a newbie posted the same thread, the majority wouldn't have the same opinion. _



Why not? One or two people probably wouldn't compliment the author before going through the thread but once they do, it's not like their opinion will be different.

If I read something, it matters not who wrote it. It matters how I feel about the content. Who metas these things?




> He's been responding to several people since page 2.
> 
> _1.
> a person who guards, protects, or preserves._
> ...



I'm responding to people because I love the essay. I'm a Tsunade fan myself and I believe she's underestimated a lot on these boards. If I get a medium to stand up for her, I don't see how that bothers you?


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## Seph (Jul 14, 2011)

> Am I not allowed to neg anymore? I did not like how you were calling everyone who agreed with the OP pretty much a mindless drone so I negged you. Is it that much of a big deal? I've been negged over smaller things. You're only the 4th person I've ever negged so that says something, at least.



Negging someone during an argument is extremely childish. Furthermore, you're obviously the one taking things too personally by negging me and responding to everyone on this thread who slightly disagrees with the essay.



> She was prepared to fight A by then.



Thanks for admitting you were wrong.

By the way, there's nothing Tsunade can do against A without prep. Minato needed Hiraishin to dodge A's full power punch and Naruto needed his full speed. Tsunade has nothing that can compare, the only way she can survive is with prep. You are completely biased and not thinking rationally at all.



> You're missing the point here. You said speed is everything. So shouldn't a person who only has speed be easily able to defeat Tsunade according to you? To which you replied that there's noone in this manga who has only speed. The strength comment was just a way of saying that Tsunade isn't helpless either. She has ways to deal with speed. Definitely enough that she won't be powerless against any guy who can run faster than her.



I was obviously exaggerating when I said speed is everything. I meant that it's the most important stat.



> Anyway, this feels too much like getting into semantics just for the sake of arguing.



It doesn't indicate that they read the thread, either. Do you really, REALLY think most people had the willpower to read the thread? Therefore, it's much more likely that they didn't, and even if they did, they didn't read it rationally.



> Funny thing is that neither he nor you actually read the essay.



So what?



> This is the kind of mentality that bugs me. Which is why I negged you as well. I'd neg you again, in fact but that would be pointless. I've already put my point across. Do not generalize people and believe that anyone whose opinion differs from yours is incapable of thinking on their own.



Suu's opinion differs from mine, but I didn't say he's incapable of thinking on his own.



> I'm not arguing you cause I feel a need to "guard" this thread. I'm arguing with you because I think you're wrong. It's a very simple distinction to make.



Still makes you a guardian. You're responding to everyone on this thread who disagrees with the essay. Do you argue with every person on Konoha Library that you disagree? I doubt it. It seems like you picked this thread for some reason, maybe to get Suu's recognition.


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## Summers (Jul 14, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> This is why he negged me: "Unnecessary accusations.* It's a discussion about hypothetical superpowered ninjas. Don't see why you're taking things personally.".*
> 
> Suu himself showed me parts of his essay, and they were far from satisfactory.
> 
> ...



I dont agree with the bolded as a reason to neg someone by itself, but I do agree with the underlined, and If I were to neg someone it would probably be for that. Thats the last I will say on that since I am not him, and it would get weird.

If I am to believe that someone is agreeing mindlessly to a thread Then I still dont see that, that action would be a way of gaining respect or recognition, how would someone get this for never reading a thread thread. we would have to ask Suu to know for sure, if S/he would be happy with people never reading a thread that took so much effort.

That its probably the only example of someone possibly mindlessly agreeing,  I already mentioned several possible reason for some of for this. For this one specifically it can be explain through hyper bole and exaggeration to show how wonderful that person thinks thread OP is. I dont think poster would actually respond to someone who has read the OP and Disagrees that "you cant just because" that would be embarrassing, and not worth of this respect that you claim they seek. Not in my eyes. Maybe we should ask the poster of that quote. Even if that is true does that one post represent many others?

As for the reaction newbie would get, I partially agree. People would not take the risk of saying what was said in this thread with a newbie, they may be embarrassed by it later. But that's what i means to be new, and Suu isn't, I was not embarrassed by praising OP when I just speed read it. 

I would be more hesitant to read such a huge post from a newbie since experience has led me to be trolled. Also when I was new I made a long thread about a heated topic, about hinata and sakura and Naruto, it was fairly long and I got a good response.

I will end it there, Since this is not what this thread is about, its about arguing Tsunades close combat prowess. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Any more and the Mods might think its gone off topic or ugly and lock it


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## Seph (Jul 14, 2011)

Summers, thank you for being much more rational than Marco.

In response to people mindlessly agreeing with Suu,

_Does ideology trump facts? Studies say it often does

Saying that correcting misinformation does little more than reinforce a false belief is a pretty controversial proposal, but the claim is based on a number of studies that examine the effect of political or ideological bias on fact correction. In the studies, volunteers were shown news items or political adverts that contained misinformation, followed by a correction. For example, a study by John Bullock of Yale showed volunteers a political ad created by NARAL that linked Justice John Roberts to a violent anti-abortion group, followed by news that the ad had been withdrawn. Interestingly, Democratic participants had a worse opinion of Roberts after being shown the ad, even after they were told it was false. 

Along those lines, a pair of political scientists, Brendan Nyhan of Duke and Jason Reifler of Georgia State, have shown a similar effect, this time concerning misinformation surrounding the presence of WMDs in Iraq, tax cuts, or stem cell research. Participants were shown news reports that contained inaccuracies, followed by a correction. The news reports were not real, but were presented to the volunteers as coming from either the New York Times or Fox News. Again, the findings suggest that facts that contradicted political ideology were simply not taken in; if anything, challenging misbelief with fact checking has the counterintuitive effect of reinforcing that misbelief.
_

So really, people simply tend to believe anything they're impressed by / biased towards. In this case, the length of the thread and the member who made it. It's simple psychology, actually. 

First impressions are everything to people. It's the unavoidable truth.

I despise that people are biased towards regular members like Suu and completely disregard the opinion of a newbie.


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## Marco (Jul 14, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> Negging someone during an argument is extremely childish. Furthermore, you're obviously the one taking things too personally by negging me and responding to everyone on this thread who slightly disagrees with the essay.



Yes it is. Negging someone over an argument is wrong. I didn't neg you because I disagree with your opinion about Tsunade. I negged you because you called people mindless and said they were sucking up to the OP.




> Thanks for admitting you were wrong.



I never have a problem with admitting when I'm wrong.



> By the way, there's nothing Tsunade can do against A without prep. Minato needed Hiraishin to dodge A's full power punch and Naruto needed his full speed. Tsunade has nothing that can compare, the only way she can survive is with prep. You are completely biased and not thinking rationally at all.



I don't agree with this. I don't want to turn this into a A vs Tsunade thread but I'll just post a little something just to address this point of yours.

A doesn't always start with his super speed punch. The only time he did so was against Minato, who A knew to be revered for his speed. In all his other fights, he's stuck to his usual speed attacks. Not to say that they're slow but just pointing out that if Tsunade and A were to fight, A probably wouldn't start with that.

Second, Tsunade knows A is the fastest friend alive. If she avtivates Genesis Rebirth, then a punch would not be enough to put her down and she could counter attack. Again, I do not mean to imply that she can beat A. I do not believe so. My point is that she won't be helpless or powerless against A. Her strength is probably more than A's and if A tries to grapple her, it would be bad for him.




> I was obviously exaggerating when I said speed is everything. I meant that it's the most important stat.



Most important, I wouldn't say. Very important, yes. But that's where this essay comes in. Whereas Tsunade isn't the fastest ninja around, she has other skills that make up for it. That's the primary point of the essay and if you read it, you'll see. Even if you still disagree, at least we won't have to go over it again.




> It doesn't indicate that they read the thread, either. Do you really, REALLY think most people had the willpower to read the thread? Therefore, it's much more likely that they didn't, and even if they did, they didn't read it rationally.



Yes. I believe if people don't explicitly mention whether they've read the thread or not, that they've read it. I do not make judgements such as these. If a person is posting in a thread, I will believe he's read it or at least gotten the gist of it. This is what I mean by you getting personal. I read a person's post and I counter if I disagree with them. I don't complain about them not reading the thread unless they say so. And even then I'd only complain if it pertains to the argument.

Why does it bother you?




> So what?



You're criticizing others for not having read the thread when you say you haven't read it either.




> Suu's opinion differs from mine, but I didn't say he's incapable of thinking on his own.



Yes, but you did say most of the people in this thread are incapable of doing so.




> Still makes you a guardian. You're responding to everyone on this thread who disagrees with the essay. Do you argue with every person on Konoha Library that you disagree? I doubt it. It seems like you picked this thread for some reason, maybe to get Suu's recognition.



If a thread interests me enough, then I'll definitely argue with everyone who disagrees with me about it. Unless that someone is deliberately trolling (like Namikaze Minato in this thread. I still love him though. ).

Suu already knows me well enough. I do not need to babysit some thread to get his attention or recognition.

The mere fact that you're insinuating such a thing brings me back to why I negged you.

Rather than argue about the contents of the essay, you're taking things into a personal domain. However, this part of our debate is unbecoming of this thread and if you want to continue, I'd rather do so over PMs than here.


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## Bane (Jul 14, 2011)

Its rep worthy. I agree with most of it. Though you used an example of her kick shattering the ground early on and said that was due to her chakra enhanced strenght. Whos to say that wasn't her own? :ho


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## Seph (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm done with replying after this.



> Yes it is. Negging someone over an argument is wrong. I didn't neg you because I disagree with your opinion about Tsunade. I negged you because you called people mindless and said they were sucking up to the OP.



That's not what was on most of your neg sentence. Maybe if you had said it more carefully, I wouldn't care.



> Not to say that they're slow but just pointing out that if Tsunade and A were to fight, A probably wouldn't start with that.



Irrelevant. We were talking about her being powerless. A was about to use his ultimate punch on Naruto when Tsunade was about to step in, but she was too slow to do anything. So yes, she was powerless.



> Most important, I wouldn't say. Very important, yes. But that's where this essay comes in. Whereas Tsunade isn't the fastest ninja around, she has other skills that make up for it. That's the primary point of the essay and if you read it, you'll see. Even if you still disagree, at least we won't have to go over it again.



It is the most important - why does Kishi himself make such a big deal out of it over and over? I don't think she's completely useless, but her lack of speed really is debilitating.



> Yes. I believe if people don't explicitly mention whether they've read the thread or not, that they've read it.



That's incredibly naive. You'd need the Will of Fire to read that thread.



> Why does it bother you?



People in general don't look at the facts and agree with everything that seems trustworthy. That's very bothersome.



> You're criticizing others for not having read the thread when you say you haven't read it either.



I'm criticizing others for forming mindless opinions, actually.



> Yes, but you did say most of the people in this thread are incapable of doing so.



Incapable of forming an opinion because of not reading the thread? Yes. Incapable of forming an opinion simply because I don't agree with them? No.



> Suu already knows me well enough. I do not need to babysit some thread to get his attention or recognition.



You kind of are babysitting the thread.


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## Marco (Jul 14, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> That's not what was on most of your neg sentence. Maybe if you had said it more carefully, I wouldn't care.



I'm sorry I didn't dress the neg up better.

_Unnecessary accusation_. For saying people are easy to manipulate, can't think for themselves, and are sucking up to the OP.

_This is a board about hypothetical super powered ninjas. Don't take things personally._ Because you shouldn't attack people personally. Attack their arguments all you like, but personal insults are something I can't sympathise with.




> Irrelevant. We were talking about her being powerless. A was about to use his ultimate punch on Naruto when Tsunade was about to step in, but she was too slow to do anything. So yes, she was powerless.



People like Jiraiya, Itachi, Tsuchikage, Deidara, etc would have been unable to intercept shrouded A running away from them as well. That doesn't mean they're powerless against A. I took your post to mean that. If you were instead talking specifically about the scenario, then I'm sorry for misinterpreting you but then I don't see how it really affects our discussion.




> It is the most important - why does Kishi himself make such a big deal out of it over and over? I don't think she's completely useless, but her lack of speed really is debilitating.



Kishi makes a lot bigger deal about guts and will. That doesn't mean they're the most important. Especially in Battledome scenarios. Someone with a whole lot of speed would be powerless against an aerial opponent or someone with an impenetrable defense, for example. A lot of these things are circumstantial. No one thing is supremely important. Depends on the person's own fighting style.




> That's incredibly naive. You'd need the Will of Fire to read that thread.



It might be naive to you. But I prefer it to being presumptuous about others and attacking them personally.




> People in general don't look at the facts and agree with everything that seems trustworthy. That's very bothersome.



No. You're supposedly bothered about people agreeing with the OP and complimenting him about it. 




> I'm criticizing others for forming mindless opinions, actually.[/quoting]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Distance (Jul 14, 2011)

This whole thread was made to give a decent amount of evidence as to why Tsunade can hold her own without being faster than most of the top tier characters. If anyone is disagreeing with anything it should be that they believe that Tsunade can't hold her own with strength, resilience, stamina, evasiveness and taijutsu. Who ever brings up that Tsunade's lack of speed is why she would lose clearly didn't understand the thread or didn't even read it, or are just being too stubborn in believing that speed is everything.



> Many are quick to disregard Tsunade in close-quarters combat simply because she does not seem as speedy or precise as other combatants, such as Lee or Gai. Whilst this may be true, it does not necessarily make her any less dangerous in close-quarters.



Sephiran's reply:



> Originally Posted by *Sephiran*
> In a manga where speed is everything, how on earth can you say that?



This post alone showed that Sehiran didn't read, understand, or is being stubborn about the thread, and he is just like everyone else who he claims are mindlessly agreeing, but just mindlessly disagreeing instead.


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## Distance (Jul 14, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> You have the most disgusting, most biased post I've ever seen. Basically, you're saying that anyone who disagrees with Suu is wrong and you don't give a shred of evidence or explanation as to why.
> 
> Even Suu acknowledges the fact you can debate with his points, in fact, he cherrypicked and copy pasted parts of his essay which I read and disagreed with. Therefore, I didn't need to read the essay at all because he himself copy pasted parts of it.
> 
> You simply proved my point about how biased people are and you proved the study, so thank you for your time.





I said that referring to Tsunade's slow speed is not a very good way to argue in this thread, it shows that no one is reading, understanding or is being stubborn about speed in this manga. Everything about this thread is about how her other attributes, for example strength, resilience, stamina, evasiveness and taijutsu make up for her lack of speed. You however brought up speed without even reading what the thread was about.


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## Joakim3 (Jul 14, 2011)

+reps just for the effort


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 14, 2011)

Distance said:


> I said that referring to Tsunade's slow speed is not a very good way to argue in this thread, it shows that no one is reading, understanding or is being stubborn about speed in this manga. Everything about this thread is about how her other attributes, for example strength, resilience, stamina, evasiveness and taijutsu make up for her lack of speed. You however brought up speed without even reading what the thread was about.



none of her other attributes matter if she's not fast enough , Period. 

a mid tier Kabuto made Tsunade realize that.


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## Suu (Jul 14, 2011)

*Sephiran*: 

*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't want to get too off-topic with what's being discussed between Marco and yourself right now, but I do feel the need to address this somewhat.

It's a shame you are perturbed by the kinds of responses you see in this thread, but just as I respect your right to feel a certain way about others' responses - and your right to disagree with what has been written in my essay - you need to respect others' right to post messages of support and praise whenever they wish, regardless of whatever ulterior motives you believe they may have for doing so. If you think about it: even if what you claim were true, what does pointing it out achieve? If it was your intent to shatter my resolve by discrediting whatever praise/support you feel I have attained thus far, you have failed. If it was your intent to caution future posters against posting with ulterior motives (ie. "sucking up"), or to chastise previous posters for doing so, posting in such an acerbic, accusatory and downright rude manner is going to achieve the opposite effect if anything. The swift and largely negative response to your post is proof enough of this. 

Whilst I acknowledge your right to make such accusations, however irrelevant they may be to the actual purpose of this thread, I do not agree with them. 

What exactly does anybody have to gain by praising me for my work here? I am no longer a moderator (not that I'd give biased perks away if I were one), nor was I ever a moderator of this particular section. I also don't believe in repping back solely for receiving a rep. They have my gratitude, but nothing more. 
What exactly does anybody have to lose by disagreeing with my work here? If anything, I have _invited_ and _thanked_ users for disagreeing/debating/discussing issues in this thread; my exchanges with RumbleKing Yoshitsune and Helios are proof enough of this. I've even been repping those who haven't been afraid to raise [relevant] issues in my thread.
What makes you think the majority of these posters here are drawn towards some sort of unspoken "charisma" I have? I don't even know half these posters. Hell, I haven't posted in the Library for months upon months, perhaps even more than a year. I have not created a thread in the Library since 2006-2007. Even in my old stomping grounds, the Battledome, I have been inactive for more than a month.
What is wrong with concept of praising somebody for effort alone? Fullstop.
What incentive would a user have to lie about not having read the essay? So many people here have _willingly admitted_ to not actually having read the essay. I don't hold it against them. Nobody does. They're not afraid to admit it, and they have nothing to lose by saying so.
It seems quite evident that you haven't read the essay either; if not reading the essay and agreeing with it is so "wrong", how is not reading the essay and _dis_agreeing with it "right"?

I also feel you are giving Marco too much flack for posting in this thread. He has every right to post in this thread if he wishes. He has as much right to disagree with your post and others' posts as you do. What exactly are you out to prove by accusing him of "babysitting" this thread?

tl;dr - Calm down. Your peers have not disrespected you in any way, please do not disrespect them.


 



Sephiran said:


> Nothing can make up for a lack of speed. She was completely powerless in the fight between Naruto, A and Bee because of her lack of speed. Even if she's physically up to par, her lack of speed can't make up for anything.


The disparity in speed between Tsunade and A, Tsunade and Bee, and Tsunade and RM Naruto is large enough to give them a real advantage against her were they to ever fight in close-quarters combat. I have not denied this, and have even willingly admitted it (as you so deftly pointed out to Marco). 

This thread is addressing disparities in speed of lesser degrees - but to an extent that still makes many Battledomers (and apparently Library regulars) scream "She's slower, therefore she loses!". Think Tsunade and pre-timeskip Kakashi. Tsunade and Zabuza. Tsunade and Asuma. Tsunade and Base Jiraiya. All these ninja have a speed advantage over her, but this essay sets out to prove that other close-quarters combat related factors - factors that Tsunade would "score highly in", figuratively speaking - can help Tsunade overcome this disadvantage and fight on par with, if not best, these ninja in close-combat.

It should have been obvious, had you finished reading the essay, that I acknowledge the fact that _gross_ speed disparities would still result in a loss for Tsunade. See for yourself:

_*Despite everything* I have written above, I do believe that there is a certain *threshold* where all these factors can begin to *no longer make up for a gap in speed* between Tsunade and her opponent. Of course, if an opponent is *fast enough* and has methods of circumventing or nullifying the above factors, Tsunade will *ultimately have very little chance* of prevailing in a close-quarters duel against them. _​
Hopefully that clears things up.



> The importance of speed is constantly mentioned in this manga, so unless she uses something to boost her speed, she'll always be below a certain tier. That thread was made in 2009, speed wasn't nearly as important as it is now.


I am not sure if you bothered clicking the link I provided for you in my last response, but this is simply not true.

As I said, speed is _undeniably_ important in most battles. And I would be lying if I said that speed had not won a ninja his/her manga battle in the past. But there are also examples of battles from the manga where one ninja has held a speed advantage over another in close-quarters combat, and yet the "disadvantaged" ninja has still prevailed. Hidan vs. Asuma. Shouten Kisame vs. Gai. Orochimaru vs. Sarutobi Hiruzen. Gaara vs. Lee. The list goes on.


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## Distance (Jul 14, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> none of her other attributes matter if she's not fast enough , Period.
> 
> a mid tier Kabuto made Tsunade realize that.



The only fast people in her way now is A, Bee, Naruto, Madara, and possibly a few others. Everyone else she has a chance of fighting on par with. We don't need to discuss how Tsunade will fare with Minato in terms of speed, because he's dead.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 14, 2011)

Distance said:


> The only fast people in her way now is A, Bee, Naruto, Madara, and possibly a few others. *Everyone else she has a chance of fighting on par with*. We don't need to discuss how Tsunade will fare with Minato with her other attributes, because he's dead.



so you mean she has a chance of fighting on par with:

1- MS Sasuke
2- Itachi
3- Oonoki
4- Deidara
5- Nagato
6- Muu

and list goes on.

and i didnt bother mentioning other people like Kisame ......etc since circumstances might change the outcome.


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## Distance (Jul 14, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> so you mean she has a chance of fighting on par with:
> 
> 1- MS Sasuke
> 2- Itachi
> ...



The few others that I forgot should have included Sasuke. To be honest the list isn't huge between Tsunade and a lot of other characters, and people should post ones that are actually alive if we want to be up to date in the manga.

Itachi is dead, and nothing but a zombie now, and the same goes for Nagato and Muu. However if they were alive they could possibly beat Tsunade, but don't go and tell me that Tsunade can't hold her own against them until she is overcome.


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## Seph (Jul 14, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 





> If you think about it: even if what you claim were true, what does pointing it out achieve? If it was your intent to shatter my resolve by discrediting whatever praise/support you feel I have attained thus far, you have failed.



No, I have nothing against you because I don't even know who you are. It really bothers me to see that most people just blindlessly agree with everything you say without the facts. I wish they would stop, but it doesn't seem likely, even with what I posted.

I changed my mind about the sucking up thing earlier, because I found the study that I had been looking for. People tend to mindlessly agree with what they're impressed by (the length of this thread), or because of who made the post, and even if a piece of fact is presented against them (saying, for example, that the whole essay was a troll), it doesn't change their opinion.

What really disturbs me isn't this essay, but how people reacted to it. I wish people would make their own opinions for once.






> I said that referring to Tsunade's slow speed is not a very good way to argue in this thread, it shows that no one is reading, understanding or is being stubborn about speed in this manga.



Again, claiming that I'm ignorant without any proof. I can tell you that you know nothing about Mars, but I don't have any proof of that, either.



> I am not sure if you bothered clicking the link I posted for you in my last response, but this is simply not true.



I did, since I told you that the thread was made back in 2009. The power levels have changed so much now that speed is the most important stat.



> But there are also examples of battles from the manga where one ninja has held a speed advantage over another in close-quarters combat, and yet the "disadvantaged" ninja has still prevailed. Hidan vs. Asuma. Shouten Kisame vs. Gai. Orochimaru vs. Sarutobi Hiruzen. Gaara vs. Lee. The list goes on.



There are good reasons for why the disadvantaged ninja succeeded, though.

What has Tsunade shown to compete with speedsters, exactly? I know I haven't read your essay yet, but I really can't think of anything that can compete with A.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 14, 2011)

Distance said:


> The few others that I forgot should have included Sasuke.
> 
> Itachi is dead, and nothing but a zombie now, and the same goes for Nagato and Muu. However if they were alive they could possibly beat Tsunade, but don't go and tell me that Tsunade can't hold her own against them *until she is overcome*.



you mean until they get serious and activate strong techniques , not until she's overcome , until she's overcome means someone overpowered Tsunade for a brief moment and managed to snag a win against her , and that is not the case with the people you mentioned.

Tsunade will die if those Shinobi get serious with her , however if they play with her with Shurikens and taijutsu stuff , she should be pressed but nonetheless alive till they activate Ninjutsu.

so no , she cant hold her own.


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## Suu (Jul 14, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Ah, I see. I was mistaken then. 

When you put it that way, your intent seems rather righteous. I suppose that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Is that an Australianism? I hope not.






> I did, since I told you that the thread was made back in 2009. The power levels have changed so much now that speed is the most important stat.


I am not sure if it's completely irrelevant. 

You are right in saying that power levels have utterly skyrocketed since the creation of that thread, but for the purposes of the Battledome (this essay is, after all, primarily for the Battledome), the points I have raised here are still very relevant. There, Tsunade is often matched against characters from both past and present, many of whom would be deemed irrelevant by current manga standards (with the exception of a few who have been resurrected via _Edo Tensei_). 

Speaking of exceptions, there are still several "current" ninja who do not rely wholly upon speed; Danzou, Kisame (depending on the location of the battle), Darui, Kitsuchi, Kakuzu and a few of the other _Edo Tensei_ zombies...they're all relatively recent characters who have shown speed that is higher than Tsunade, but not high enough to give them the "insta-win" card that so many regulars like to wave around.



> There are good reasons for why the disadvantaged ninja succeeded, though.
> 
> What has Tsunade shown to compete with speedsters, exactly? I know I haven't read your essay yet, but I really can't think of anything that can compete with A.


Ah, that is why you should read my essay. =)

And I don't think Tsunade can compete with A in close-quarters combat. As I wrote in my last response:

_The *disparity in speed between Tsunade and A*, Tsunade and Bee, and Tsunade and RM Naruto is *large enough to give them a real advantage* against her were they to ever fight in close-quarters combat. I have not denied this, and have even willingly admitted it (as you so deftly pointed out to Marco)._​
I'll repeat: when I say "these factors can help Tsunade fight on par with, if not best, faster opponents", I am not referring to opponents who are as fast as A. No, that is undeniably _too_ fast for Tsunade. I am referring to opponents like Asuma, Zabuza, Kakuzu and Base Jiraiya, who are all faster than Tsunade, but could still potentially lose to her in a strict close-quarters combat duel, due to the other factors explored in my essay.


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## Seph (Jul 14, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Ah, I see. I was mistaken then.
> 
> When you put it that way, your intent seems rather righteous. I suppose that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Is that an Australianism? I hope not.



Doesn't it bother you to see people just agree with you because you're you, or because you posted a long essay? It's just wrong for people to simply assume that someone's right because of their reputation or effort, which is exactly what people are doing right now. Other people are simply letting you do the thinking without looking at the facts. That's what bothers me.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that newbies who try hard will not be taken seriously simply because of who they are. It's really bothersome.






> You are right in saying that power levels have utterly skyrocketed since the creation of that thread, but for the purposes of the Battledome (this essay is, after all, primarily for the Battledome), the points I have raised here are still very relevant. There, Tsunade is often matched against characters from both past and present, many of whom would be deemed irrelevant by current manga standards (with the exception of a few who have been resurrected via Edo Tensei).



I am sure that the thread is useful for the Battledome. However, Kishimoto's mind seems to have changed since 2009 and his obsession with speed seems to indicate that it's the most important stat, after hyping it over and over and over again. It's possible that one can say the power levels have changed since 2009, even for the old characters, because of the current importance Kishimoto places on speed. I think this thread would have been better posted in 2009 or 2010.

Kishimoto does tend to disregard what happened in the past. One great example is when Naruto spammed Kage Bunshins a couple of chapters ago.



> Speaking of exceptions, there are still several ninja who do not rely wholly upon speed; Danzou, Kisame (depending on the location of the battle), Darui, Kitsuchi, Kakuzu and a few of the other Edo Tensei zombies...they're all relatively recent characters who have shown speed that is higher than Tsunade, but not high enough to give them the "insta-win" card that so many regulars like to wave.



Danzou has an incredibly overpowered ability and he's just old, so he doesn't need to rely on speed. I don't think Darui and Kitsuchi can beat Tsunade. I don't think Tsunade is on the level of Kakuzu and some of the Edo Tensei zombies, though. Lack of speed is a big reason why Kakuzu got owned by Naruto, if I recall correctly.


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## Suu (Jul 14, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



It doesn't really bother me, but that might be because I'm so used to seeing it around here. I was also expecting it to some degree. It _is_ a very long thread, after all, so I knew not to expect _everybody_ who wanted to comment on it to have read it in its entirety. That's definitely asking too much. Equally, I knew to expect some users to disagree with the premise of my thread, despite not actually having read it.

I suppose I am comforted by the fact that my message has been communicated across a medium that is neither dynamic nor ephemeral. My essay is not going to change any time soon (not to mention I don't actually have the powers to edit it, at least not in this section). My essay is not going to disappear suddenly, either. This is comforting because it means whoever has taken an interest in it can always come back and read it again and again, gradually until completion. One does not necessarily need to have finished reading the essay in its entirety to comment upon it; indeed, there were even a few comments along the lines of "This looks great, etc., _I'll finish reading it later_". It's not as if I were conveying this all in a live, unrecorded speech, where at the end there were people who had clearly not paid attention praising me for my words. People can always come back and read more. 

As for newbie credibility, this is simply a fact of life. You'll see it wherever you go. New workers in an office, who might have a great deal of past experience relevant to their current job, will always defer (either by choice or by force) to peers who have been working with the company for longer. Junior lecturers at a university will defer to the opinions of the more senior professors, regardless of any perceived difference in opinion.

That is why, especially in this day and age, people strive to create a reputation for themselves and to earn that badge of seniority in whatever enterprise they may pursue. This is not necessarily a bad thing; for some people, it gives life/work meaning, and gives them short-term/long-term goals to work towards. For some people, building a reputation and having the ability to shoulder responsibility, garner respect from their peers and lead others is perhaps one of the most important facets of their life.

I suppose from a pure theoretical standpoint; upstarts will observe the negative reaction they receive from the masses (comparative to the positive reaction the more senior/respected members garner), and strive to become like them. In doing so, they emulate their idol's ("idol" is a strong word to use, but you get my drift) posting style, mannerisms and - more often than not - improve their quality of posting. So, in a way, this "cycle" sort of encourages users to post in a better way.

There's also the fact that I can name at least half a dozen users - from the Battledome that is, I'm not sure how things work in the Library - that have garnered a huge amount of respect and admiration almost from day 1, simply due to the sheer amount intelligence and charisma they ooze.

So I suppose there is some...justice...in it all?






> I am sure that the thread is useful for the Battledome. However, Kishimoto's mind seems to have changed since 2009 and his obsession with speed seems to indicate that it's the most important stat, after hyping it over and over and over again. It's possible that one can say the power levels have changed since 2009, even for the old characters, because of the current importance Kishimoto places on speed. I think this thread would have been better posted in 2009 or 2010.


If you're referring to my thread; countless threads attempting to clear Tsunade's name _have_ been posted in 2009 and 2010 (by respectable and intelligent users). The reaction, unfortunately, has been less than favourable in those threads. 

But I can see where you're coming from. 

I suppose, in a way, the reemergence of these 'past' characters due to _Edo Tensei_ has been somewhat of a blessing for Tsunade. That way, Kishimoto can safely continue with his "New generation > old generation" motif, and increase the power-levels of his main cast to extraordinary levels, without significantly tainting Tsunade's chances of a good showing. This is assuming Tsunade has nothing more to show us, by the way. I doubt that is the case, but who knows.

*

Anyways, I'll definitely be looking forward to hearing what you have to say after you've read my essay. Let me know when you've read it.


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## Seph (Jul 14, 2011)

Since you seem like you want me to read the essay, I will do so. I'll address the sentences I disagree with, in case you want to improve the essay.



> She has shown the ability to blitz an opponent who according to the databook possesses more speed than herself [1], albeit from a very short distance,



It seems that the databook is wrong, which happens a lot.



> Furthermore, it should be noted that Shunshin no Jutsu is classified as ninjutsu and therefore may be partially - if not wholly - excluded from a databook speed statistic [4].



If it is, that just proves how worthless the databook stats are. If it isn't, the databook stats are still wrong. So they're wrong no matter what.



> She was presumably able to keep up with A, a ninja of purportedly great speed even without his Raiton shroud [7], and surprised two highly reflexive ninja in doing so [8].



Don't you think it's completely stupid for A to go full speed? I mean, he asked Tsunade to come for a reason. Why abandon her?



> For further reading on some factors not covered in this primer, please refer to Vagrant Tom's thread [9].



I think that it is outdated and no longer relevant, as I said before.



> Because even a partial hit from her can deal incredible amounts of damage



Why can't her hits be completely dodged? She's not SM Naruto.



> Factor 4: Tsunade's evasion



I don't like what you wrote here, because it sounds like a lot of biased worship. You talk about experience, intelligence and memory and use them to prove that she can anticipate an attack, while we completely lack feats. 



> When I say 'evasion' here, I am not referring to the ability to react quickly to an attack. I am referring to the ability to anticipate an attack and react accordingly.



Evasion as a word is a bad choice. Maybe it would be better renamed Tsunade's combat experience, because in a battle, evasion = dodging attacks with reflexes. Prediction seems much more correct than evasion. 

Furthermore, she might not even literally dodge the hit - she might decide to take it head on. If I were playing Pokemon, and I predicted, out of my combat experience with a Pikachu, that it would use Thunderbolt, I would switch to Snorlax to take the hit. 

Evasion is a synonym for avoiding, but evasion isn't a synonym for anticipation / prediction. A wrong word will mislead members.

I mostly agree with the rest.


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## `Monster (Jul 14, 2011)

Read it all.
And I completely agree.
I believe that now that Tsunade has become more prone to fighting through out the manga chapters, she's sort of 'shaken' out of her rusty state, and is not back in action.


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## Suu (Jul 15, 2011)

KSM Naruto said:


> Its rep worthy. I agree with most of it. Though you used an example of her kick shattering the ground early on and said that was due to her chakra enhanced strenght. Whos to say that wasn't her own? :ho


Touch. I once wrote a thread about whether or not Tsunade's power was derived from "natural" strength or "chakra-enhanced" strength. Suffice to say, the strong implication from the manga _is_ that her method of strength-enhancement is similar to Sakura's (or, rather, Sakura's is similar to hers). Having said that, it would not surprise me the least bit if Tsunade's natural strength turned out to be quite high, too.



Sephiran said:


> Since you seem like you want me to read the essay, I will do so. I'll address the sentences I disagree with, in case you want to improve the essay.


Thanks for reading it. 



> It seems that the databook is wrong, which happens a lot.


Whilst I acknowledge the fact that the databook is wrought with mistakes and inconsistencies, when used reasonably and not relied upon wholly (which I hope I've done both of in my essay), they can provide a good supplementary source of canonical (regardless of whether or not we like it) information.

I am also fully aware of the fact that different people have different interpretations of the databook - or more specifically, the databook statistics - and I would not be offended if somebody did not agree with my use of them here. Each to their own.



> Don't you think it's completely stupid for A to go full speed? I mean, he asked Tsunade to come for a reason. Why abandon her?


I've addressed this point several times in my responses to other users.

I do not deny that A may have been travelling slower than his full capacity. Hell, we know _for a fact_ that he wasn't travelling at his fastest pace because his _Raiton_ shroud wasn't even active.

My argument is that A had an incentive to hurry towards his target destination. His top priority was to stop the Jinchuuriki from reaching the front lines of battle. He was also in pursuit (and not pursuit in a traditional "chase from behind" sense, but close enough) of two ninja who he knew could travel very fast (or at least, he would have known that Bee was capable of fast movement). On top of this is the fact that A is a haughty, impatient man who has been known to speed ahead of his allies - even the ones who he assigns to accompany him (Darui and Shi inclusive) - to achieve any goal he feels passionate about. He was certainly passionate enough about stopping Bee and Naruto, as proven by his speech and actions against Naruto and Bee upon arrival, and by the fact that he willingly relinquished (albeit temporarily) his leadership position to chase them down.

Obviously with all this in mind, he would have slowed down a little, if not to wait for Tsunade then at least to conserve energy. Would he have intentionally slowed himself down to the snail-pace that many people use to portray Tsunade? His in-character inclinations and circumstantial evidence says otherwise. There's also the fact that, regardless of what speed you believe Tsunade was travelling at in relation to A, Tsunade's arrival surprised both Naruto and Bee, and they are two highly reflexive ninja. 

So don't get me wrong - I do not believe Tsunade can keep up with A's maximum speed or even anywhere close to his full speed. I merely believe the fact that she was able to keep up with a ninja as impatient and with as much reason to hurry as A, _and_ catch Naruto and Bee off-guard in the process, tells us that Tsunade _can_ move at a reasonably fast pace when she chooses to.



> I think that it is outdated and no longer relevant, as I said before.


As I said in my last response (which you either missed or did not quote here), the fact that Kishimoto has resurrected ninja from the past _does_ give these "outdated" feats relevance to the manga. In bringing back past characters, Kishimoto can safely continue with his "New generation > Old generation" motif, power-scaling his main cast exponentially, whilst not significantly damaging Tsunade's chances of a good showing. There are also still some very "current" characters whose speeds and attacking styles have not yet been power-scaled to levels that are too much for Tsunade to handle. I even named a few for you, to which you agreed on a couple.

Speaking of agreeing, you also agreed that my reference to Vagrant Tom's thread was still relevant for the purposes of educating/informing the Battledome. So there's really no debate there. 



> Why can't her hits be completely dodged? She's not SM Naruto.


Because it is _much _easier to land a partial hit than it is to land a full hit. Surely _that_ needs no explaining. If a single finger from Tsunade was capable of tearing the ground apart, all she really needs is to _graze_ an opponent to deal critical damage. Sure, she's no SM Naruto, but the other factors outlined in the essay should all help her land a hit. And if she cannot land a full hit, even a partial hit will suffice. 

Also note that a lot of taijutsu fighters have trained their minds and bodies to instinctively react to attacks by dodging. However, I'd imagine quite a few fighters have also trained themselves to care little for partial hits, and focus more upon avoiding the brunt of an attack, knowing that the average partial hit would deal little-to-no damage. Against these types of opponents, Tsunade can most easily inflict injury. Things are made even worse for opponents when they have no knowledge of Tsunade's strength, or think she'd be incapable of releasing it from a mere fingertip.



> I don't like what you wrote here, because it sounds like a lot of biased worship. You talk about experience, intelligence and memory and use them to prove that she can anticipate an attack, while we completely lack feats.


What you might call "biased worship", another might call "logical application of theory". Yes, I digress, that section is largely theoretical, but there is definitely a great deal of logic behind the theory. And we _have_ seen such theory in action on-panel in the manga before.

Chiyo stated that experience and knowledge were needed for good evasion skills. She proves this by manoeuvring not only herself to dodge the majority of Sasori's attacks, but also by helping Sakura dodge too. Sakura also proved that the ability to read into enemy attack patterns can help one evade attacks. Tsunade has both of these, at least in theory.

Tsunade has a tonne of experience and knowledge under her belt, as well as the intelligence and memory span to apply it to battle. Tsunade was also the one who drilled Sakura through evasion training, so I'd be very surprised if Tsunade weren't adept at Sakura's style of evasion herself.

I have provided several scans of Tsunade dodging attacks. Sure, she hasn't dodged every single attack that has ever been flung her way, but then again, she hasn't had very much combat panel time either. The point of that subsection was to say that Tsunade theoretically has more of a focus upon evasion than your average ninja, and that - also theoretically - she possesses the tools to evade attacks in the same way Chiyo and Sakura were able to.

Like I said in a response to another user's concerns, the logical (as opposed to nonsensical) and reasonable (as opposed to over-the-top) application of theory to battle is often praised in the Battledome. I'm not sure how things work in the Library, but from a pure Battledome perspective, that section has some relevance (although how it weighs up against some of the other factors I explored, even I cannot say).



> Evasion as a word is a bad choice. Maybe it would be better renamed Tsunade's combat experience, because in a battle, evasion = dodging attacks with reflexes. Prediction seems much more correct than evasion.
> 
> Furthermore, she might not even literally dodge the hit - she might decide to take it head on. If I were playing Pokemon, and I predicted, out of my combat experience with a Pikachu, that it would use Thunderbolt, I would switch to Snorlax to take the hit.
> 
> Evasion is a synonym for avoiding, but evasion isn't a synonym for anticipation / prediction. A wrong word will mislead members.


This is merely a disagreement in terminology. I personally see the word "evasion" as an umbrella term that incorporates both reflex-borne evasion and anticipatory evasion. You might not, and I respect that.

Thanks for pointing it out to me, though. Another user had a problem with my wording there too, so perhaps I shall change it when I somehow find the ability to edit this monster essay.



> I mostly agree with the rest.


Thanks for that. So, all in all, you agree that Tsunade _does_ possess some traits/factors that can help her make up for disparities in speed (albeit not _huge_ disparities like Tsunade vs. A)?


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## Thunder (Jul 15, 2011)

Looks like I need to visit the Library more often. 

Very nice Suu.


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## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

> when used reasonably and not relied upon wholly (which I hope I've done both of in my essay), they can provide a good supplementary source of canonical (regardless of whether or not we like it) information.
> 
> I am also fully aware of the fact that different people have different interpretations of the databook - or more specifically, the databook statistics - and I would not be offended if somebody did not agree with my use of them here. Each to their own.



However, doesn't the fact that the databook has plenty of mistakes give reason to doubt the pieces of information we consider canon? The fact that the databook has a copious amount of mistakes means that any other information we consider canon could be false.



> I merely believe the fact that she was able to keep up with a ninja as impatient and with as much reason to hurry as A, and catch Naruto and Bee off-guard in the process, tells us that Tsunade can move at a reasonably fast pace when she chooses to.



I suppose that it's impressive that Tsunade could keep up with A. However, I don't recall Naruto and Bee being caught off-guard by Tsunade's speed.



Isn't it much more likely that Naruto was surprised at Tsunade arriving to confront him? Furthermore, Bee himself says that he wasn't talking about Tsunade. It may be because of the translation, but it seems that Bee meant to say brother but he tripped on the "t". In fact, it's even more likely that Bee was surprised by Tsunade's breasts rather than her speed.



> the fact that Kishimoto has resurrected ninja from the past does give these "outdated" feats relevance to the manga.



I said in an earlier post that Kishimoto's opinions on power levels may have changed due to the importance he currently gives to speed.

His opinion on Hiruzen, for example, seems to have changed greatly, who right now seems Jonin level.



> Speaking of agreeing, you also agreed that my reference to Vagrant Tom's thread was still relevant for the purposes of educating/informing the Battledome.



I don't recall saying this directly.



> What you might call "biased worship", another might call "logical application of theory".



I consider a great amount of baseless theories more like biased worship, but to each his own.



> This is merely a disagreement in terminology. I personally see the word "evasion" as an umbrella term that incorporates both reflex-borne evasion and anticipatory evasion.



You call evasion "reacting accordingly". However, according to dictionaries, evasion is dodging. Reacting accordingly may mean tanking something, which is the _complete opposite_ of evasion. For example, let's assume she was fighting a very fast opponent. She may want to tank a hit in order to catch the opponent.

So yes, evasion is a very wrong word to use.



> So, all in all, you agree that Tsunade does possess some traits/factors that can help her make up for disparities in speed (albeit not huge disparities like Tsunade vs. A)?



Yes.


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## Suu (Jul 15, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> However, doesn't the fact that the databook has plenty of mistakes give reason to doubt the pieces of information we consider canon? The fact that the databook has a copious amount of mistakes means that any other information we consider canon could be false.


Not really. Anything written by Kishimoto himself and released officially is canon. Errors and inconsistencies do not render materials _non-canonical_. They might render them unreliable, yes, but in the same way there are sometimes mistakes in the manga, they're still pieces of canon.

In my opinion, the whole "the databooks are unreliable" belief is a little sensationalised and overstated around these parts. Just like how you were incensed by the "mob following" mentality that well-written essays tend to garner in the Library, the whole "anti-databook bandwagon" is in a similar boat. I can bet you that more than a third of the people who preach "anti-databook mentality" don't actually know half of the _actual_ inconsistencies/errors that exist within the databook/s, and that most of what they _do_ believe are inconsistencies/errors can actually be explained by things such as differences in interpretation (particularly re: databook statistics) and whatnot.

If one actually takes the time to inspect every single inconsistency and/or error in the databooks, one might realise that these errors only make up a small percentage of the overall source material. On the whole, information from the databook is actually quite useful, believe it or not. Furthermore, things such as differences in interpretation (are databook statistics supposed to be compared across-characters, or only within-characters?), unspecified timeframes/powerups (do strength statistics reflect chakra enhancements?) and so on can explain why some information might seem inconsistent. I am not saying that errors/inconsistencies do not exist in the databooks, but rather, a lot of people tend to overrate exactly how "inaccurate" they perceive them to be.

Anyways, back on point, it is because of the existence of these inaccuracies/inconsistencies that I have not relied _solely_ upon the use of databook statistics in my essay (that, and I think they'd make for a pretty poor argument even in the absence of error). I don't just say "Well, hey, Tsunade's stamina is 4 out of 5!", I say "Tsunade's stamina is 4 out of 5, and these are the feats that might back that score up!". 



> I suppose that it's impressive that Tsunade could keep up with A. However, I don't recall Naruto and Bee being caught off-guard by Tsunade's speed.


For some reason the image you posted cut off the top part of the scan. Click me. Look at the top left panel. Naruto audibly says "Woah!" and Bee even exclaims "!!?". The expressions on their faces and their body language also suggests they were caught off-guard by the arrival of both A and Tsunade.

Also, in case you were wondering, the panel before that contains a mistranslation. The scan says:
_What in the world!!? Why is everybody trying to get in our way?_

The correct translation is:
_What is going on? Why is everything all a blur?_
(the literal word is "hazy"/"misty", but obviously he's not talking about a physical change in weather - he's referring to his pseudo-sensing ability)

The mistranslation makes it seem as if Naruto knew Tsunade and A were coming, whereas the correct translation leaves it a little more subtle and ambiguous. Either way, his reaction to their arrival says it all.



> I don't recall saying this directly.


You did say "I am sure that the thread is useful for the Battledome" after bringing up the point about a 2009 thread not being relevant. Perhaps I misunderstood you.



> I consider a great amount of baseless theories more like biased worship, but to each his own.


Fair enough. I would not call my "theory" here baseless; I've explained what I've based it upon (the Sakura-Tsunade relationship, and Chiyo's comments). It's not as if I've said "I theorise that Tsunade can use Kage Bunshin". Now _that_ would be a baseless theory. It's also not as if I've granted Tsunade some godly, never-shown-before ability through the application of my theory.



> You call evasion "reacting accordingly". However, according to dictionaries, evasion is dodging. Reacting accordingly may mean tanking something, which is the _complete opposite_ of evasion.


Evading is dodging. If one can read into their opponent's attack pattern and _predict_ what their next move will be (eg. Shikamaru and Tayuya's flute-controlled Doki, or Sakura and Sasori's finger-string-controlled puppet), they will be better able to dodge their opponent's attacks. 

Both reflex-borne evasion and anticipatory evasion result in a dodge. That is why I feel my use of the word "evasion" here is legitimate.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

Bravo. Nothing more needs to be said.


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## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

> Not really. Anything written by Kishimoto himself and released officially is canon. Errors and inconsistencies do not render materials non-canonical. They might render them unreliable, yes, but in the same way there are sometimes mistakes in the manga, they're still pieces of canon.



It seems you have misunderstood me. While anything written by Kishimoto himself is obviously canon, I was trying to indicate that we have good reason to doubt pieces of information released by the databooks and not mentioned in the manga (to be fair, I don't know if these pieces of information were considered canon, I assumed they were in my previous post when I said considered canon). Stats are the prime example of this. The fact that we can see several mistakes in the stats means that we have a good reason to doubt all of them.

Furthermore, do we even know who they were written by?

I'm simply suggesting that it would be better for the stat references from the databook to be removed, because it seems a bit silly to me to say "well, Shizune has a higher stat in speed than Tsunade, but Tsunade blitzed her". Maybe mention that we have good reason to doubt them.



> Look at the top left panel. Naruto audibly says "Woah!" and Bee even exclaims "!!?". The expressions on their faces and their body language also suggests they were caught off-guard by the arrival of both A and Tsunade.



The rest of the image:



It seems a bit weird to me to directly assume that they were surprised because of how fast A and Tsunade were. Naruto and Bee, two of the greatest speed demons in the manga, surprised by Shunshin jutsus? I don't really think A and Tsunade have a Shunshin jutsu on the level of Minato's.

Wouldn't it be more likely to assume that they were simply surprised because they were concentrating on their goal? Bee was listening to Naruto talk and Naruto was focusing on the blur that you mentioned. It seems that they were scared by the arrival of something while they were concentrating on other things rather than surprised by how quick they were.

I agree that they were caught off-guard, as you said, but I don't know if we can directly attribute this due to Tsunade's speed. It seems that they were scared by the sudden arrival. Looking at the picture in the left hand corner, due to the smoke, Naruto and Bee may have been scared that they were enemies.

Furthermore, if you look at the body language it seems like Naruto and Bee were trying to stop to not crash into them.



> You did say "I am sure that the thread is useful for the Battledome" after bringing up the point about a 2009 thread not being relevant. Perhaps I misunderstood you.



I also said "it would have been better posted in 2009 or 2010".



> I would not call my "theory" here baseless; I've explained what I've based it upon (the Sakura-Tsunade relationship, and Chiyo's comments). It's not as if I've said "I theorise that Tsunade can use Kage Bunshin". Now that would be a baseless theory. It's also not as if I've granted Tsunade some godly, never-shown-before ability through the application of my theory.



While it's well written, I consider baseless = no solid proof / feats.



> Evading is dodging. If one can read into their opponent's attack pattern and predict what their next move will be (eg. Shikamaru and Tayuya's flute-controlled Doki, or Sakura and Sasori's finger-string-controlled puppet), they will be better able to dodge their opponent's attacks.
> 
> Both reflex-borne evasion and anticipatory evasion result in a dodge. That is why I feel my use of the word "evasion" here is legitimate.



Perhaps you didn't read my last sentence. I meant that reacting accordingly may mean that Tsunade may not even dodge an attack, rather tank it if she feels that it's the best choice.


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## Shirai Ryu (Jul 15, 2011)

Suu said:


> Just a few notes before we begin.
> 
> *Firstly, I'd like to caution all potential readers that this will be a long read. !*



That was an understatement, good essay though.


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## Turrin (Jul 15, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> It seems you have misunderstood me. While anything written by Kishimoto himself is obviously canon, I was trying to indicate that we have good reason to doubt pieces of information released by the databooks and not mentioned in the manga (to be fair, I don't know if these pieces of information were considered canon, I assumed they were in my previous post when I said considered canon). Stats are the prime example of this. The fact that we can see several mistakes in the stats means that we have a good reason to doubt all of them.
> 
> Furthermore, do we even know who they were written by?
> 
> ...



1. There are very few mistakes in stats, if any 

2. The DB was written by Kishimoto as he is credited as the author

3. Tsunade didn't blitz Shizune, she merely caught her off guard, since Shizune was not expecting her master to attack her.


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## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

Turrin said:


> 1. There are very few mistakes in stats, if any
> 
> 2. The DB was written by Kishimoto as he is credited as the author
> 
> 3. Tsunade didn't blitz Shizune, she merely caught her off guard, since Shizune was not expecting her master to attack her.



1. They seem to be very ambiguous, because we have absolutely no idea what they account for. I think that's a good reason enough to not consider them.

3. Suu claims that Tsunade blitzed Shizune.

_She has shown the ability to blitz an opponent who according to the databook possesses more speed than herself_


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

What're your thoughts on the Tsunade-Shizune interaction then? It really read as though she blitzed her.


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## Turrin (Jul 15, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> 1. They seem to be very ambiguous, because we have absolutely no idea what they account for. I think that's a good reason enough to not consider them.
> 
> 3. Suu claims that Tsunade blitzed Shizune.
> 
> _She has shown the ability to blitz an opponent who according to the databook possesses more speed than herself_



1. Yes we do the DB plainly states what each stat represents

2. I realize Suu thinks that and I'm saying your both wrong. Suu's wrong to believe Tsunade blitz Shizune some one with greater speed than her own out of merits of her own quickness and your wrong to believe that the DB is wrong. Tsunade Blitz Shizune because she wasn't expecting her master to attack her.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 15, 2011)

Plus there's only 0.5-tier gap in speed, but a 3-tier gap in taijutsu.


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## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

Do we know, for example, if the DB stats account for modes? Such as, Jiraiya's SM, Itachi's MS, the Gates. etc. 

_Furthermore, it should be noted that Shunshin no Jutsu is classified as ninjutsu and therefore may be partially - if not wholly - excluded from a databook speed statistic _

We don't even know if the speed stat considers Shunshin.

If we do know what each DB stats represents, I would like for you to copy paste them from the databook itself.



> Tsunade Blitz Shizune because she wasn't expecting her master to attack her.



Yes, we can say that she was. Shizune knows Tsunade best. She knows that Tsunade can be an aggressive person, and Shizune was provoking Tsunade: "I will stop you!". Before Tsunade blitzes her, she even says "Who do you think you're talking to?!". If that's not expecting, I don't know what is.



> Plus there's only 0.5-tier gap in speed, but a 3-tier gap in taijutsu.



That's lovely.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jul 15, 2011)

We've deduced it doesn't include enhancements. Sakura's strength stat in the Third Databook is 3, whereas her strength inherited from Tsunade would most definitely be at a five. This lends to the idea of the databook being free of any enhancements, chakra-boost, jutsu-included or otherwise.


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## Seph (Jul 15, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> We've deduced it doesn't include enhancements. Sakura's strength stat in the Third Databook is 3, whereas her strength inherited from Tsunade would most definitely be at a five. This lends to the idea of the databook being free of any enhancements, chakra-boost, jutsu-included or otherwise.



We've _deduced_. Keyword deduce. Seems like there isn't a source that "clearly states" each stat after all.

The fact that it doesn't show any enhancements show how pointless the stats are. In fact, I think that Tsunade can increase her speed in the same way she increases her strength, but simply focus the chakra on her feet. Furthermore, Shunshin is obviously an important part of speed.. and the fact that it isn't considered...

The stats are almost completely meaningless to the Battledome.


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## Marco (Jul 15, 2011)

Guys, I would argue about the legitimacy of databook stats but it really is irrelevant and mostly off topic.

The point regarding the databook stats is but one minuscule part of the essay.


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## Suu (Jul 16, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> It seems you have misunderstood me. While anything written by Kishimoto himself is obviously canon, I was trying to indicate that we have good reason to doubt pieces of information released by the databooks and not mentioned in the manga (to be fair, I don't know if these pieces of information were considered canon, I assumed they were in my previous post when I said considered canon). Stats are the prime example of this. The fact that we can see several mistakes in the stats means that we have a good reason to doubt all of them.


Indeed, which is why my arguments/points do not rely solely upon databook statistics. They are merely used to to _supplement_ my arguments. I believe databook statistics are unreliable to the point where relying heavily upon them would only serve to weaken one's arguments, but not to the point - at least not in my eyes - where they cannot be used as supplementary resources.



> Furthermore, do we even know who they were written by?


Kishimoto is credited as the sole author of the databooks, as far as I know.



> I'm simply suggesting that it would be better for the stat references from the databook to be removed, because it seems a bit silly to me to say "well, Shizune has a higher stat in speed than Tsunade, but Tsunade blitzed her". Maybe mention that we have good reason to doubt them.


Perhaps. It's a suggestion I'll seriously consider.



> The rest of the image:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perhaps, but either way, Bee and Naruto have both shown incredible reflexes in the past. Naruto being distracted by his pseudo-sensing sounds plausible, but Bee being distracted to the point of being caught off-guard simply because he was _listening_ to somebody else talk? Given what he's shown us in his previous battles, I'd hardly expect such a reaction from him. Perhaps my expectations are too high?



> I agree that they were caught off-guard, as you said, but I don't know if we can directly attribute this due to Tsunade's speed. It seems that they were scared by the sudden arrival. Looking at the picture in the left hand corner, due to the smoke, Naruto and Bee may have been scared that they were enemies.


This seems to stem from a difference in interpretation. It's funny how such a tiny, minor scan can cause such vital differences in interpretation. I suppose at this stage we'd just have to agree to disagree.



> While it's well written, I consider baseless = no solid proof / feats.


You're entitled to that opinion. It seems to take much less for you to consider something "baseless". That's fine, then. 



> Perhaps you didn't read my last sentence. I meant that reacting accordingly may mean that Tsunade may not even dodge an attack, rather tank it if she feels that it's the best choice.


Sure she could, but I did mention her "anticipation" skills being used for other purposes in my "Miscellaneous Factors" section. The "anticipation" that appears under the "Evasion" section deals solely with using anticipation skills to _dodge_.

As I said before, this disagreement appears to stem from a difference in terminology. 



Turrin said:


> 3. Tsunade didn't blitz Shizune, she merely caught her off guard, since Shizune was not expecting her master to attack her.


It really depends on how you choose to interpret those scans/words. Personally, I think Shizune would have been prepared to fight at that point in time. If you look at the circumstances, it seems difficult to believe otherwise.

Shizune is a ninja who has been with Tsunade for almost her entire life. She knows how powerful and temperamental Tsunade is, and knows how Tsunade would normally react to a direct challenge (in fact, she even bore witness to Tsunade's reaction to Naruto's threat upon their first meeting). She knows Tsunade's personality inside out, and probably understands the full extent of Tsunade's combative skills. So, when she challenges Tsunade by saying "I'm ready to put my life on the line to stop you" (or something to that effect), Shizune would have known _exactly_ what she was getting herself into. She would have known that that was _not_ a line one could simply utter to a legendary kunoichi of Tsunade's temperament and get away with unscathed. Shizune is also very smart and pragmatic by nature, so putting two and two together seems to suggest that Shizune would have been reasonably prepared to take Tsunade on at that point in time.

Like I said, however, I acknowledge the fact that there might be different interpretations of those scans and even the scenario as a whole, so I wouldn't go so far as to label your words "wrong". Just "different" to my own interpretation. I am not expecting you to agree with this interpretation, but I hope you can at least recognise where my logic comes from.



Marco said:


> Guys, I would argue about the legitimacy of databook stats but it really is irrelevant and mostly off topic.
> 
> The point regarding the databook stats is but one minuscule part of the essay.


True story.


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## Seph (Jul 16, 2011)

> Perhaps, but either way, Bee and Naruto have both shown incredible reflexes in the past. Naruto being distracted by his pseudo-sensing sounds plausible, but Bee being distracted to the point of being caught off-guard simply because he was listening to somebody else talk? Given what he's shown us in his previous battles, I'd hardly expect such a reaction from him. Perhaps my expectations are too high?



The fact that they have such incredible reflexes and speed should be a good enough reason for them to not be surprised by Tsunade and A's Shunshin speeds at base.

As I said, Bee and Naruto were focusing on reaching the battlefield.



> Sure she could, but I did mention her "anticipation" skills being used for other purposes in my "Miscellaneous Factors" section. The "anticipation" that appears under the "Evasion" section deals solely with using anticipation skills to dodge.



I still think evasion is a very wrong word to use, but it's your essay.


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## Noda. B (Jul 16, 2011)

Amazing thread, and adding on to your point about her creation rebirth, I find that a lot of people here don't see how much of an advantage regeneration like that is in combat, especially close quarters combat. A lot of times when you're fighting hand to hand, you're not actually using your full speed to strike since you'll always hold back just a little in case you need to quickly defend yourself from an attack. But with a technique like creation rebirth, you can basically focus completely on offense without holding back which could potentially bridge some speed gaps between her and her opponent and I would definitely consider another factor along with the many others mentioned in this thread. Keep in mind, though, I'm not saying this will make her a complete speed monster and she'll suddenly start blitzing A or something, but it's still something worth keeping in mind.

And another thing related to this point is that if she does start focusing completely on offense like that, overwhelming her opponent, it's going to be really hard for them to safely land a hit on her like that while immediately dodging/defending right afterwards. Let's say hypothetically that both her and her opponent throw a punch at the same time. If Tsunade had her regeneration/creation rebirth activated (and depending on the opponent she might not even need it active in this case) she could keep the punch going fullpower without any consquences while her opponent would have to land the punch and dodge before Tsunade's fist reaches them (which would basically be covering the same distance that the opponent's fist would have to cover before dodging). And that's just one punch, imagine a whole overwhelming volley of them. Such relentless aggression actually provides quite a signifigant boost in speed and strength and probably the only reason isn't used more is that it's exceedingly reckless, though with Tsunade's regeneration, is not something she needs to worry about.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 17, 2011)

Good essay, even if I don't agree with the way you used some of panels for evidence. (For example, in your example 1B you seem to be suggesting that Tsunade was able to perform a super human feat yet Kabuto seems to attribute this to her large breast preventing him from cutting deeply enough and delivering the intended attack.) 



> I am not saying that Tsunade as a combatant stands among the highest of the high tier, nor do I believe that she is necessarily the most powerful or skilled ninja in close-combat. I simply believe that she can maintain a competitive presence upon any battlefield, and that she can hold her own in close-quarters combat against even stronger or more swift opponents. *Despite everything I have written above, I do believe that there is a certain threshold where all these factors can begin to no longer make up for a gap in speed between Tsunade and her opponent.* Of course, if an opponent is fast enough and has methods of circumventing or nullifying the above factors, Tsunade will ultimately have very little chance of prevailing in a close-quarters duel against them. The fact remains, however, that for most ninja, a close-quarters encounter with Tsunade would spell certain death.



Where would you put this threshold? Could she compete with Bee's kenjutsu? Gated Gai? Neji's gentle fist?


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## Suu (Jul 17, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> The fact that they have such incredible reflexes and speed should be a good enough reason for them to not be surprised by Tsunade and A's Shunshin speeds at base.
> 
> As I said, Bee and Naruto were focusing on reaching the battlefield.


I personally don't think it's a good excuse for somebody with their feats, but each to their own I suppose.



> I still think evasion is a very wrong word to use, but it's your essay.


No, not at all. I appreciate every word, argument and suggestion you've given me thus far. I'll definitely take this one on board. Thanks for the input, and +reps.



Noda. B said:


> Amazing thread, and adding on to your point about her creation rebirth, I find that a lot of people here don't see how much of an advantage regeneration like that is in combat, especially close quarters combat. *A lot of times when you're fighting hand to hand, you're not actually using your full speed to strike since you'll always hold back just a little in case you need to quickly defend yourself from an attack.*


Excellent point! I hadn't really thought of it that way before. And they say you can't teach an old dog new tricks...



> But with a technique like creation rebirth, you can basically focus completely on offense without holding back which could potentially bridge some speed gaps between her and her opponent and I would definitely consider another factor along with the many others mentioned in this thread.


Exactly. The technique allows her to focus solely upon offense (to some extent, of course; there are obviously things out there that can still kill her, regeneration or not). I like the way you've worded it here.



> And another thing related to this point is that if she does start focusing completely on offense like that, overwhelming her opponent, it's going to be really hard for them to safely land a hit on her like that while immediately dodging/defending right afterwards. Let's say hypothetically that both her and her opponent throw a punch at the same time. If Tsunade had her regeneration/creation rebirth activated (and depending on the opponent she might not even need it active in this case) she could keep the punch going fullpower without any consquences while her opponent would have to land the punch and dodge before Tsunade's fist reaches them (which would basically be covering the same distance that the opponent's fist would have to cover before dodging). And that's just one punch, imagine a whole overwhelming volley of them. Such relentless aggression actually provides quite a signifigant boost in speed and strength and probably the only reason isn't used more is that it's exceedingly reckless, though with Tsunade's regeneration, is not something she needs to worry about.


Indeed. Tsunade going all out in close-quarters combat would somewhat resemble the Raikage on a warpath, at least when it comes to fighting style; the Raikage himself has access to the luxury of not having to care for his defenses thanks to his _Raiton_ shroud. The fact that both the Raikage and Tsunade have shown that, in-character, they're not afraid to throw their bodies into the face of harm (Raikage burning his arm with Amaterasu, and Tsunade blocking Orochimaru's Kusanagi) should also be considered here.

Thanks for the wonderful input!


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## Suu (Jul 17, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> I guess I didn't make the point I was trying to make clear. The statement Kabuto made, "I see she isn't ordinary... an average person would just suffer and not be able to move at all" was made under the assumption that the attack penetrated deep enough. However Kabuto later noted that Tsunade's "fat breasts" stopped the attack from penetrating deep enough, which is why Tsuande was able to move. So this isn't an exceptional feat which indicates that Tsunade possesses a super-human body.


Were this Tsunade's only movement-hampering ailment at the time, then I'd be inclined to agree with you. But Tsunade was being hampered by other factors at the same time as her subcostal muscle injury, other factors that would have in concert theoretically hampered her movement quite significantly. The fact that she could still move around like that I'd say is still a testament to her resilience.



> Well said, the one problem I have with Tsunade's taijutsu is that she hasn't shown any Taijutsu. Punches and kicks are one thing but actual techniques such as the Lion Combo or the Initial Lotus which it originates from are another topic.


Thanks. I suppose you've got a good point there. In my eyes, though, taijutsu is more than simply using named techniques that are classified in the databook as "taijutsu". Almost all of A's taijutsu techniques, for example, are just simple punches and elbow strikes. Many of Gai and Lee's taijutsu techniques are more or less the same (Leaf Rising Whirlwind, Boulder Smash, etc.).

Just for the record, Tsunade technically _has_ shown a taijutsu technique; the kick she used to open up against Orochimaru and Kabuto is _Tsuuten Kyaku_.


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## Marik Swift (Jul 17, 2011)

Too much reading  I'll read it another time when I have time. Sorry for not making a contributory post.​


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## elephant_roar (Jul 17, 2011)

I am a fan of Tsunade as well, but you have to admit that her "unique" traits have been watered-down. It seems that the author can (and has) very easily attribute super-human strength to just about any ninja, as well as speed and reactionary ability. Her endurance pales in comparison to that of Jiraiya's too. 

I like her, but she isn't very impressive _anymore_. Sage Mode, reincarnation jutsus, wide-scale devastating jutsus- Tsunade, like Sakura, can't compete with that.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 17, 2011)

Suu said:


> Were this Tsunade's only movement-hampering ailment at the time, then I'd be inclined to agree with you. But Tsunade was being hampered by other factors at the same time as her subcostal muscle injury, other factors that would have in concert theoretically hampered her movement quite significantly. The fact that she could still move around like that I'd say is still a testament to her resilience.



Sure Tsunade was hindered by multiple injuries Kabuto has inflicted on her. However the specific attack which was meant to render Tsunade immobile had failed due to Tsunade's breasts and not because of any super human characteristic. 



> Thanks. I suppose you've got a good point there. In my eyes, though, taijutsu is more than simply using named techniques that are classified in the databook as "taijutsu". Almost all of A's taijutsu techniques, for example, are just simple punches and elbow strikes. Many of Gai and Lee's taijutsu techniques are more or less the same (Leaf Rising Whirlwind, Boulder Smash, etc.).
> 
> Just for the record, Tsunade technically _has_ shown a taijutsu technique; the kick she used to open up against Orochimaru and Kabuto is _Tsuuten Kyaku_.



Well what else is there to Taijutsu other than technique? Speed, strength, intelligence, and stamina cover the other fields rather well. Experience? 

Sorry for bringing it up again, but in general how do you think Tsunade matches up against Oro and Jiraiya? Do you think she would needs some special ability other than her regeneration to match up against Edo Tensai and Sage mode?


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## elephant_roar (Jul 17, 2011)

> Sorry for bringing it up again, but in general how do you think Tsunade matches up against Oro and Jiraiya? Do you think she would needs some special ability other than her regeneration to match up against Edo Tensai and Sage mode?



She doesn't 

Similar to the new Sannin, Sakura pales in comparison to Sasuke and Naruto. Unless it is revealed that Sakura has genius parents, I don't see how Sakura will match Sasuke and Naruto, but that may be intended as Tsunade certainly can't match Oro and Jiraiya.


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## left behind (Jul 17, 2011)

this is one of the best justification Tsunade deserves.  I failed to see more to her feats.  Thanks to this, i'll nominate this for thread of the month


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## Sans (Jul 18, 2011)

Just on a general note. I liked how you dealt with Tsunade's equivalent of "hype"; in that the one fight we have of her isn't enough to adequately gauge her abilities. 

As an Itachi fan, I sometimes find it very tempting to dive into all the character statements, hype and knowledge that Itachi wasn't actually on Akatsuki's side to make a point. 

However, you presented us with the possibility that her abilities are beyond what we have seen, but focused on what firm facts we have for the character.



Suu said:


> *Tsunade in close-quarters combat*​
> ~_Primer Part I_~​
> 
> *Introduction*
> ...




While I agree this is a durability feat, I don't believe it to be particularly _impressive_. Shizune and Naruto (at this point) have no durability beyond whatever the baseline for characters in the Narutoverse happen to possess. This still places her far below _Raiton no Yoroi_ Ei, _Sennin Modo_ Jiraiya, Orochimaru, _Sennin Modo_ Naruto, Kisame etc.
​


Suu said:


> Example 1B:In  a similar example, an exhausted (hampered movement) and rusty (hampered  movement) Tsunade, who had just had her leg muscles cut (hampered  movement) and subcostal muscle injured (greatly hampered movement;  according to Kabuto it would have normally "stopped a person in their  tracks" [47]),  was able to get up off her knees, run towards and behind Kabuto, and  hit him with a debilitating jutsu in the second or so he had held his  eyes shut [48].  The mere fact that she could continue moving in this state surprised  even her opponent, and is a huge testament to her ability to continue  moving and attacking despite sustaining multiple movement-impairing  ailments.​Example 1C:Tsunade was rusty, tired  out, had her leg muscles cut, a potentially not-yet-fully-healed  subcostal muscle injury, various abrasions from Kabuto's assault, and  slashes from Orochimaru's Kusanagi sword up along her shoulder, across  her torso and straight through her chest, and yet we discover that the  only thing that was _really_ hampering her movement - and  subsequently stopping her from attacking - was her hematophobia. Why?  Because the moment she overcame it, she was able to get up off the  ground (from an inconvenient starting position [49]) and hit Orochimaru square in the face [50]. ​




This is entirely my own personal opinion; but there are feats that I disregard, as I believe they were motivated by plot. Normally I do so when the character suddenly gains in competency for a short period of time, usually for symbolic/plot effect. An example would be Bee defeating Ei's Lariat while un-shrouded, yet being smashed aside in the next chapter.

Strategos actually made a  compiling these feats.

With so many extenuating factors, I'm fairly convinced that at least a portion of Tsunade's speed was symbolism in this case. The narrative does support it to a degree, with her throwing off the shackles of her past.
​


Suu said:


> Example 1D:During Pain's invasion of Konoha, Tsunade was hit by Deva Realm Pain's heightened _Shinra Tensei_  without the protection of Katsuyu, and was still able to move  relatively well afterward, reaching Naruto mere moments after the blast []. This is the same jutsu that possessed enough force to destroy every single building in Konoha and send the entire village _hundreds of metres_  below ground level. We later discover that the main factor hampering  Tsunade from fighting was not the number or extent of the injuries she  had sustained from being hit with this force, but rather chakra  exhaustion [].  Whilst others in the vicinity may have replicated this feat, it does  not detract from her feat of resilience, especially given the fact that  others have nearly died after being hit by normal _Shinra Tensei_ attacks.​




How likely do you view it that Tsunade healed herself before proceeding to the battlefield? Because I find it hard to believe that _anyone_ would be battle-ready (ignoring fatigue) after tanking the epicentre of _Chou Shinra Tensei_. 
​


Suu said:


> To amplify to her ability to take on damage and continue moving and attacking, Tsunade has her _Sōzō Saisei_  jutsu. This S-ranked supplementary ninjutsu grants her a constant  regenerative effect that lasts several minutes, allowing her to quickly  regrow entire organs and limbs [54], and requiring little more than the clasping of hands together to activate [55],  with apparently little-to-no concentration needed to keep the  regeneration running afterward. Tsunade specifically distinguishes this  jutsu from mere 'healing', labelling it 'regeneration' instead; indeed,  the databook goes to lengths to describe _Sōzō Saisei_ as the 'ultimate medical ninjutsu' because of its ability to transcend the normal limitations of medical ninjutsu [].



How do you view _Soizo Sasei_ clashing with "instant kill" techniques? I can't recall specifically (and am not inclined to go searching ), but I'm fairly certain Orochimaru stating that snapping her neck would work. Such a statement indicates that if death occurs too quickly, regeneration will not take place.

Which techniques do you believe could kill her during _Soizo Sasei_? Are there any additional techniques you believe could kill her _before_ she activated her jutsu?

How would you rate Tsunade's battle experience against other characters demonstrated skill in Taijutsu? It does seem somewhat less important then it should realistically be, which I blame on Kishimoto. 

For instance, Kakazu with far more experience then anyone else - bar Madara - was taken down by a pre-twenty year old. Several members of Akatsuki are also capable of overmatching him one on one as well, demonstrating an almost complete lack of experience when deciding fights. 

Itachi is probably the most egregious case of this; considering he was able to one-panel Orochimaru at the age of eleven. 

Overall I agree with the vast majority of your thread. Now, onto some questions! 

1) How capable of resisting Itachi's Genjutsu do you believe Tsunade to be?

2) Who would emerge the victor in a fight between the two?



EDIT: Lol, my messing around with quotes made my text have Georgia font, but not your's.

EDIT SQUARED: Now it isn't doing that. But a random quoted portion from you has no writing in it. I rather like that, so I'll leave it be.


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## Suu (Jul 18, 2011)

Marik Swift said:


> Too much reading  I'll read it another time when I have time. Sorry for not making a contributory post.​


Haha, I completely understand. I hope you'll find the time (and energy) to read it one day. 



elephant_roar said:


> I am a fan of Tsunade as well, but you have to admit that her "unique" traits have been watered-down. It seems that the author can (and has) very easily attribute super-human strength to just about any ninja, as well as speed and reactionary ability. Her endurance pales in comparison to that of Jiraiya's too.
> 
> I like her, but she isn't very impressive _anymore_. Sage Mode, reincarnation jutsus, wide-scale devastating jutsus- Tsunade, like Sakura, can't compete with that.


I agree with you to some extent. With Kishimoto powerscaling his ninja to more and more extreme levels, Tsunade's own rather outdated feats can appear to become more and more "watered down", as you put it. 

However, if you think about it, not much has really changed when it comes to close-quarters combat. Tsunade is still _one of_ the physically strongest ninja we've seen in the manga, and even if she is outmatched by Sage Mode, the gap in strength isn't large. Tsunade still possesses extraordinary resilience compared to your average ninja, and only a couple of other ninja in the manga have shown the ability to regenerate themselves at such high speeds. She still has some pretty great stamina feats (her greatest one is arguably quite "current"), and her combat experience is still a lot greater than some of the youngsters out there, which isn't going to change any time soon. 

Of course, if you're going to compare her to the highest of the high tier - for instance, Sage Mode Jiraiya - then yes, she pales in comparison. I don't see how "wide-scale devastating jutsus" has much relevance here, though, seeing as this essay deals only with close-quarters combat.



AKmyWaffle said:


> Sure Tsunade was hindered by multiple injuries Kabuto has inflicted on her. However the specific attack which was meant to render Tsunade immobile had failed due to Tsunade's breasts and not because of any super human characteristic.


No other ninja has breasts as large as Tsunade's, therefore it is a superhuman trait. 

No, but seriously, I can see where you're coming from here. Either way, I think it's clear we both agree that Tsunade being able to move with _all _those movement-impairing ailments upon her, regardless of whether or not she suffered the full potential extent of her subcostal muscle injury, is still quite a feat. It seems that the _scale_ of the feat is what we disagree upon, which I can settle for.



> Well what else is there to Taijutsu other than technique? Speed, strength, intelligence, and stamina cover the other fields rather well. Experience?


Honestly, Kishimoto has never been too specific about it. I doubt it has to do with "number/rank of taijutsu techniques one can use" alone, since there are a plethora of ninja who have scored relatively highly out there without having shown any official techniques. Neither of us can really say for a fact what taijutsu skill represents as a whole, but in my essay I have hypothesised about a few of its aspects through the use of examples.

I believe taijutsu skill not only encompasses skill in "official" taijutsu techniques, but it also involves the timing of one's attacks, the sharpness of one's instincts in close-quarters combat (ie. _what_ bodily manoeuvres to utilise in _which_ situation), the ability to manoeuvre oneself about with great flexibility and dexterity, the ability to perceive an enemy's weakness/opening or an opportune moment in close-quarters and take advantage of it, and so on. Speed and strength alone cannot possibly encompass these factors. 

It also involves very subtle differences in fighting style, such as:
(credit to  for the image)
Once again, speed and strength alone cannot encapsulate these differences in style. A taijutsu specialist, I'd imagine, would differ completely in style from a ninja who simply possessed "high strength and speed" or "high killing power and speed". I'd expect a ninja with "high killing power and speed" to be capable of doing things like Kakashi's high speed dash with _Chidori_ during the Gaiden Arc, but perhaps not as capable of doing things like keeping up with Kimimaro's flurry of slashes, parries, dodges and stabs whilst at the same time attempting to combat Kimimaro in a similar fashion. 

Another example, this time without diagrams, would probably be what I'd expect from a ninja who blocks. A ninja with great reflexes (and thus, high speed in the databook) would probably block an incoming attack like this. A ninja with high taijutsu skill would probably be able to do that _and_ perhaps twist their wrist in a way that would allow them to grab their opponent's leg as they were being kicked. That way, not only will they be able to drag their opponent down with them, but a super-strength ninja like Tsunade could simply give that leg a little squeeze to _break_ it.



> Sorry for bringing it up again, but in general how do you think Tsunade matches up against Oro and Jiraiya? Do you think she would needs some special ability other than her regeneration to match up against Edo Tensai and Sage mode?


With respects to close-quarters combat? Not too well, to be perfectly honest.

Orochimaru has shown incredible resilience, durability and regeneration, great speed (oral rebirth, snake regeneration, etc.), exceptional manoeuvrability (thanks to his stretchy, bendy body) and the ability to use an array of multi-directional attacks in close-quarters (hidden snake hands and variants), not to mention his reach and piercing power is amplified thanks to his Kusanagi sword. I don't know if he'd _outperform_ Tsunade in close-quarters combat alone, but he'd definitely be able to give her an incredibly hard time. She could probably match him for some time thanks largely to her regeneration, but I honestly don't see her outlasting him (her stamina might be higher, but he'd probably press her so much she'd probably end up going old-mode due to _Souzou Saisei_). 

Jiraiya in close-quarters combat would be a much more even match. In base mode, I think Tsunade could definitely pull a win over Jiraiya - although even so, it would not be easy. He himself has some great resilience feats, and his hair-related jutsu can serve as both close-quarters offense and defense. If they're fighting indoors, then _Kuchiyose: Gamaguchi Shibari_ would be a huge problem for Tsunade, and if _Yomi Numa_ is allowed (do you reckon it constitutes a close-quarters combat jutsu?), that would only give Tsunade more things to worry about. Jiraiya's _Rasengan_ is deadly, but nothing Tsunade's regeneration can't handle. It would probably be easier for Tsunade to land a hit - or a partial hit - than it would be for Jiraiya to land a _Rasengan_ in the first place. Of course, in Sage Mode with Ma and Pa upon his shoulders, he absolutely dominates her.

Does Tsunade need a new jutsu to match Orochimaru's _Edo Tensei_ and Sage Mode? I think the obvious answer is yes - although you might be forgetting that this essay deals with Tsunade in _close-quarters combat_ alone. As offensive ninja _as a whole_ (including long and mid-ranged combat), Orochimaru and Jiraiya are easily above Tsunade. There's no doubt about that. Even if we factor in supportive skills, I'd still say Orochimaru and Jiraiya are a notch above Tsunade. Having said that, the fact that the other two Sannin are on this level is [part of] what gives us Tsunade fans hope that one day she'll show us something new and awe-inspiring. 



left behind said:


> this is one of the best justification Tsunade deserves.  I failed to see more to her feats.  Thanks to this, i'll nominate this for thread of the month


Thanks mate. =)


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## Suu (Jul 18, 2011)

Komnenos said:


> Just on a general note. I liked how you dealt with Tsunade's equivalent of "hype"; in that the one fight we have of her isn't enough to adequately gauge her abilities.
> 
> However, you presented us with the possibility that her abilities are beyond what we have seen, but focused on what firm facts we have for the character.


Thanks Komnenos! Wonderful response, too.



> While I agree this is a durability feat, I don't believe it to be particularly _impressive_. Shizune and Naruto (at this point) have no durability beyond whatever the baseline for characters in the Narutoverse happen to possess. This still places her far below _Raiton no Yoroi_ Ei, _Sennin Modo_ Jiraiya, Orochimaru, _Sennin Modo_ Naruto, Kisame etc.


Aye. My point was to say that Tsunade's resilience (note: my own definition of _durability_ differs from what I'd call _resilience_) is notably higher than, as you put it, "baseline for the Narutoverse". I personally believe this showing is consistent with the resilience Tsunade later shows us after being cut up by Orochimaru.

Also, I have no doubt that _Raiton no Yoroi_, Sage Mode, _Doton: Domu_ and all that would provide their respective users with greater "tanking power" than Tsunade's natural resilience. Her resilience is still a fair bit higher than your average ninja's, though, and high _enough_ to allow her access to "tank and counter-attack" tactics and the like. 



> This is entirely my own personal opinion; but there are feats that I disregard, as I believe they were motivated by plot. Normally I do so when the character suddenly gains in competency for a short period of time, usually for symbolic/plot effect. An example would be Bee defeating Ei's Lariat while un-shrouded, yet being smashed aside in the next chapter.
> 
> With so many extenuating factors, I'm fairly convinced that at least a portion of Tsunade's speed was symbolism in this case. The narrative does support it to a degree, with her throwing off the shackles of her past.


I'm not too sure what I can say about the "It was plot" argument. Obviously everything in the Narutoverse is motivated by plot, but I personally believe that using it as an argument is quite fatalistic for those who enjoy debating about hypothetical and theoretical battles (ie. the Battledome). We Battledome regulars (yes, yourself included of course) acknowledge the existence of Plot no Jutsu, Plot Induced Stupidity and whatnot, but for the sake of consistency and stability in our debates and our own little "theoretical Narutoverses", we try to make _logical_ sense and conclusions of everything we've been given in the manga. 

To put it shortly, I try not to use plot as an excuse for a feat _not_ being valid in our hypothetical battles and theoretical debates. If it happened in the manga, well, we just have to accept that it happened and that it is capable of happening again (given the right conditions) in our own hypothetical battles.

I'm also not quite sure why you mentioned _speed_ here when those were examples of resilience.



> How likely do you view it that Tsunade healed herself before proceeding to the battlefield? Because I find it hard to believe that _anyone_ would be battle-ready (ignoring fatigue) after tanking the epicentre of _Chou Shinra Tensei_.


I find it a little unlikely, given that she appeared just as injured when she reached the centre of the crater as she was when we saw just just after the blast. Plus, when we saw her just after the blast, she seemed quite...energetic still.

Perhaps she did heal herself a little? We can only guess.



> How do you view _Soizo Sasei_ clashing with "instant kill" techniques? I can't recall specifically (and am not inclined to go searching ), but I'm fairly certain Orochimaru stating that snapping her neck would work. Such a statement indicates that if death occurs too quickly, regeneration will not take place.


I once wrote an essay (but never published it) about the limitations of _Souzou Saisei_. I'll post snippets of it in my responses to you below.

As for the "strangling you to death" statement from Orochimaru - that was filler.



> Which techniques do you believe could kill her during _Soizo Sasei_? Are there any additional techniques you believe could kill her _before_ she activated her jutsu?


Definitely. I don't see _Souzou Saisei_ as an unconditional win card for Tsunade anyhow; it does have its limitations, even whilst active.

First of it, Tsunade needs to have _Souzou Saisei_ active in the first place. Anything that leaves her bereft of a head (where the chakra is stored) and/or arms (to make the handseals) can stop her from activating the jutsu. Anything that makes her lose control of her arms or physically prevents her from making a handseal can also stop her from activating her regeneration. Obviously one-hit kills (as in, attacks that kill _instantly_ rather than "will hit you, and then you die ten seconds later") will prevent Tsunade from activating the jutsu by merit of Tsunade being too _dead_ to clasp her hands together. Rendering Tsunade unconscious would also prevent her from activating the jutsu.

Even whilst the jutsu is active, I don't think it makes her _invincible_. For one, I do not believe Tsunade can regenerate from _nothing_. The description of the jutsu implies that Tsunade needs at least _something_ to regenerate from (it is cell replication, after all, and you cannot replicate nothing), so attacks that wipe out Tsunade's entire body leaving absolutely no corpse behind (or only leaving a tiny bit left) would succeed in killing her. Moreover, although I personally believe that regeneration consumes chakra at a fairly steady rate, if she is _forced_ to regenerate often enough (through a rapid succession of attacks), the duration of _Souzou Saisei_ will be significantly stunted. Doing things like drowning Tsunade, burying her far below the ground and whatnot can essentially render her regeneration null, since she'd either just continue dying, or she'd simply stay dead due to the jutsu keeping her _physical_ body in perfect condition but not providing her any oxygen. Certain types of poison may also bypass her regeneration. 



> How would you rate Tsunade's battle experience against other characters demonstrated skill in Taijutsu? It does seem somewhat less important then it should realistically be, which I blame on Kishimoto.
> 
> For instance, Kakazu with far more experience then anyone else - bar Madara - was taken down by a pre-twenty year old. Several members of Akatsuki are also capable of overmatching him one on one as well, demonstrating an almost complete lack of experience when deciding fights.
> 
> Itachi is probably the most egregious case of this; considering he was able to one-panel Orochimaru at the age of eleven.


This is true, although Kishimoto has also shown how experience can triumph over the unexpected. Inconsistent? Perhaps a little, although at the same time it could just be possible that there exists a certain "threshold" where genius/skill can outweigh superior combat experience (not to mention character traits such as arrogance, intelligence and so on). I'm more inclined to believe in the latter.

I wouldn't expect Tsunade to fall to, say, a ninja of Lee's caliber largely thanks to her superior combat experience. However, against a ninja like Sasuke, she'd have very little chance in close-quarters combat, despite having a vast advantage in experience. Sorry if that was a little uninformative, but I'm not quite sure how to answer your question without being specific to the point of inspecting every single hypothetical battle Tsunade might have against a range of youngsters. 



> 1) How capable of resisting Itachi's Genjutsu do you believe Tsunade to be?


Haha, oh God the Itachi questions. I should have known they were coming.

Tsukuyomi? No chance.

Other genjutsu? A moderate chance. 

Itachi's genjutsu is definitely not your average genjutsu, but at the same time, Tsunade is not your average ninja. She's probably got _some _experience fighting genjutsu users - perhaps even Uchiha genjutsu, seeing as she grew up in a village full of them (and villagers spar all the time; the Chuunin Exams are proof enough of that). She's definitely fought alongside enough of them in the past. She already knows what to expect from a genjutsu user of Itachi's caliber too, thanks to Hokage-intel.

All signs point to Tsunade's chakra control being insanely high, perhaps one of the highest in the Narutoverse, and her raw stamina feats are also quite impressive. Her databook statistic in genjutu is slightly above average, if that matters at all (at the very least, it will help supplement her knowledge of how genjutsu works and whatnot). With all that in mind, I'd say she'd probably manage to break an Itachi genjutsu _eventually_ - but perhaps not quite in time to avoid the attack he'd have set up for her whilst she's in a dazed state. There's also the potential problem of not _knowing_ she's in an actual genjutsu until it's too late (although partners, like Katsuyu, might help circumvent that).



> 2) Who would emerge the victor in a fight between the two?


Depends on the conditions of the battle. If we go by default settings; Sannin Battlefield, 50m, manga knowledge, in-character state of mind...Itachi stomps.

You love hearing me saying that, don't you. -_-


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## Seph (Jul 18, 2011)

> Depends on the conditions of the battle. If we go by default settings; Sannin Battlefield, 50m, manga knowledge, in-character state of mind...Itachi stomps.



Jeez. Even though you love Tsunade, at least you're objective.

The same thing cannot be said for the 99.9% of the people here.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 18, 2011)

> With respects to close-quarters combat? Not too well, to be perfectly honest.
> 
> Orochimaru has shown incredible resilience, durability and regeneration, great speed (oral rebirth, snake regeneration, etc.), exceptional manoeuvrability (thanks to his stretchy, bendy body) and the ability to use an array of multi-directional attacks in close-quarters (hidden snake hands and variants), not to mention his reach and piercing power is amplified thanks to his Kusanagi sword. I don't know if he'd _outperform_ Tsunade in close-quarters combat alone, but he'd definitely be able to give her an incredibly hard time. She could probably match him for some time thanks largely to her regeneration, but I honestly don't see her outlasting him (her stamina might be higher, but he'd probably press her so much she'd probably end up going old-mode due to _Souzou Saisei_).
> 
> ...



Well said, I'm surprised that a Tsunade fan would admit that Tsunade is weaker than the other two Sannin.


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## Puppetry (Jul 18, 2011)

Of course Suu would place the other Sannin above Tsunade. They may be implied to be equal, but Tsunade's never truly had a fair showing. In a feats-only place such as the Battledome (which is what Suu intended for this essay to be used for) she's weaker.


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## Suu (Jul 18, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> Jeez. Even though you love Tsunade, at least you're objective.
> 
> The same thing cannot be said for the 99.9% of the people here.


Thanks, I guess. You'd actually be surprised how many other Tsunade fans would be willing to admit this, at least in the Battledome. Although an "Itachi vs. Tsunade" thread probably wouldn't last long in the Battledome on account of the moderators trashing it for being an unfair matchup. 



AKmyWaffle said:


> Well said, I'm surprised that a Tsunade fan would admit that Tsunade is weaker than the other two Sannin.


I think with what Orochimaru and Jiraiya have shown that they are capable of doing, especially in part II, Tsunade certainly pales in comparison.

That said, I do believe that Tsunade - overall, not just in close-quarters - is at a level of skill that should allow her to _keep up_ with her teammates to some extent and _contribute_ to a team battle, as opposed to serving as a mere hindrance or a passive side-liner. I do not like how many people portray Tsunade in "The Sannin vs. <X, Y, Z>" threads as completely useless or somehow inclined to slow her teammates down. If anything, Tsunade's skillset is highly facilitative of group battle tactics - but now we are venturing dangerous close to the topic of the second part of my primer (Tsunade as a support unit). 



Puppetry said:


> Of course Suu would place the other Sannin above Tsunade. They may be implied to be equal, but Tsunade's never truly had a fair showing. In a feats-only place such as the Battledome (which is what Suu intended for this essay to be used for) she's weaker.


Indeed             .


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 18, 2011)

Suu said:


> I think with what Orochimaru and Jiraiya have shown that they are capable of doing, especially in part II, Tsunade certainly pales in comparison.
> 
> That said, I do believe that Tsunade - overall, not just in close-quarters - is at a level of skill that should allow her to _keep up_ with her teammates to some extent and _contribute_ to a team battle, as opposed to serving as a mere hindrance or a passive side-liner. I do not like how many people portray Tsunade in "The Sannin vs. <X, Y, Z>" threads as completely useless or somehow inclined to slow her teammates down. If anything, Tsunade's skillset is highly facilitative of group battle tactics - but now we are venturing dangerous close to the topic of the second part of my primer (Tsunade as a support unit).



How does one pale in comparison yet at the same time keep up? And how exactly could Tsunade contribute?

Sage mode heals the user and Orochimaru's regenerative abilities surpass even Tsunade's. So what good would Tsunade be to them? Making medicine and antidotes is the only way I can see her contributing.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 18, 2011)

Given that this isn't a Battledome thread I won't go into detail, but I'd like to think Tsunade and Orochimaru are close to each other in skill. With Jiraiya being superior than the two overall. That being said the three are to be seen; at least in how Kishimoto has portrayed them, as equals. Though this could be taking things like intelligence, experience, advanced jutsu and reputation into account, which may not physically help in battle.


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## Sans (Jul 18, 2011)

I've always considered Tsunade weaker for very meta-reasons. Kishimoto is a sexist pig, and she's a woman. Considering the showings of all females in the Manga, I don't have any hope of seeing a competant non-male combatant.


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## Suu (Jul 18, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> How does one pale in comparison yet at the same time keep up? And how exactly could Tsunade contribute?
> 
> Sage mode heals the user and Orochimaru's regenerative abilities surpass even Tsunade's. So what good would Tsunade be to them? Making medicine and antidotes is the only way I can see her contributing.


Easy. It's like how I'd say Ino pales in comparison to Chouji and Shikamaru, but can contribute wonderfully (and _has_ contributed wonderfully) to a team battle with them by her side.

Since when did Sage Mode _heal_ the user? I know it bolsters their defense, and perhaps hastens their natural recovery power a little, but outright healing? 

Also, and here's the clinch, the "they already have this ability" argument does not always render like abilities redundant. For example, Tsunade's strength itself allows her to provide her team with a fair amount of utility, and just because Sage Mode Jiraiya has super strength too does not mean Tsunade's strength-driven utility will count for naught in a team battle. Jiraiya may not always be in a position to use his strength to support his teammates and vice versa. That "extra pair of hands" can definitely help. 

Anyways, I could go into the specifics of her supportive skills, but perhaps this would be done better in the future when - or if? - I post the second part of this primer.


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## Googleplex (Jul 18, 2011)

Suu said:


> Since when did Sage Mode _heal_ the user? I know it bolsters their defense, and perhaps hastens their natural recovery power a little, but outright healing?



Since Fukasaku mentioned that's the case due to the fact with Sennin Mode, one uses the external energy from their surroundings as opposed to using their own internal energy.
With Jiraiya, this'd certainly be the case given he has an infinite Sage Mode, arguably not up to the standard of Naruto's due to the difference in mastery and because Naruto has the Kyuubi to speed up the process.


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## Suu (Jul 18, 2011)

Eh, it seems clear to me in that scan that "recover" refers to "recovering internal energy" (something like stamina?) rather than _physically_ recover by healing wounds and injuries.

But thanks for the clarification.


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## Googleplex (Jul 18, 2011)

Suu said:


> Eh, it seems clear to me in that scan that "recover" refers to "recovering internal energy" (something like stamina?) rather than _physically_ recover by healing wounds and injuries.



Assumingly it should mean healing wounds as injuries as Fukasaku compared it to the Kyuubi's recovery which does in fact heal wounds and injuries. We do have numerous examples of Sage Mode fitting the bill such as Jiraiya's arm seeming not to be in pain sometime after it was torn off and arguably Naruto's Kyuubi version 2 burns being healed.

Edit:



			
				Carlos Net; a more literal translation said:
			
		

> 15
> Fukasaku: When you use ninjutsu chakra, formed purely from the energies within your own body, it tires you out. // Senjutsu chakra, on the other hand, absorbs natural energy from all around you, and so not only does it not tire you, it can actually speed your recovery.
> Naruto: Is that right...!
> Fukasaku: (Well... combined with the Kyuubi's Chakra, the recovery level is truly beyond the ordinary...)





Makes my point stronger, as 'recovery' in this context seems to suggest recovering internal energies (as you propounded) _and_ speeds up one's overall recovery being sort of compared to the Kyuubi's chakra complimented by the examples I provided prior the editing of this post, as AKmyWaffle and myself suggest.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 18, 2011)

Suu said:


> Easy. It's like how I'd say Ino pales in comparison to Chouji and Shikamaru, but can contribute wonderfully (and _has_ contributed wonderfully) to a team battle with them by her side.
> 
> Since when did Sage Mode _heal_ the user? I know it bolsters their defense, and perhaps hastens their natural recovery power a little, but outright healing?
> 
> ...



I can't find where the healing is mentioned, I must have been thinking of this page though. 
Since Fukasaku mentioned that's the case due to the fact with Sennin Mode, one uses the external energy from their surroundings as opposed to using their own internal energy.

As far as being able to contribute I really don't see it. Any opponent capable of fighting off both Jiraiya and Oro would, in my opinion, be able to fodderize Tsunade. Thus Tsunade would simply become a hindrance in a serious fight.


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## Puppetry (Jul 18, 2011)

Restating what has already been responded to simply creates a circular, unproductive debate. You need to _support_ your opinion with some type of evidence, instead of merely making a statement.


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## Suu (Jul 18, 2011)

Googleplex said:


> Assumingly it should mean healing wounds as injuries as Fukasaku compared it to the Kyuubi's recovery which does in fact heal wounds and injuries. We do have numerous examples of Sage Mode fitting the bill such as Jiraiya's arm seeming not to be in pain sometime after it was torn off and arguably Naruto's Kyuubi version 2 burns being healed.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...


Ah I see it now. Wow, you do learn something new every day. Thanks for that.

I think it is a little suspect to assume that Sage Mode grants recovery power anywhere near the level of, say, a full-time mini-Katsuyu providing ranged healing from Tsunade. For example, Jiraiya's arm wound was still bleeding for some time after his injury was inflicted, and we know that one of the purposes of medical ninjutsu is to stifle bleeding.



AKmyWaffle said:


> I can't find where the healing is mentioned, I must have been thinking of this page though.
> stifle bleeding
> 
> As far as being able to contribute I really don't see it. Any opponent capable of fighting off both Jiraiya and Oro would, in my opinion, be able to fodderize Tsunade. Thus Tsunade would simply become a hindrance in a serious fight.


Ah yes, Googleplex has kindly enlightened me upon Sage Mode healing properties.

Also, don't be too sure of yourself there. Tsunade may be weaker than them on an individual level, but the three of them have decades worth of teamwork experience. They have spent years perfecting the timing, communication and effectiveness of their tactics, and together they'd probably have an array of combination manoeuvres available for use. You also have to consider things like knowledge and location factors, both of which Tsunade can certainly abuse.

What many people do not realise is that the dynamics of battle change drastically in a group scenario. A lot of people make the mistake of saying "Well, in an A, B, C vs. X, Y, Z battle, A fights X, B fights Y, and C fights Z". In reality, it would probably look nothing like that. Especially if, in this case, A, B and C have had decades worth of experience fighting alongside each other. The Sannin would be hard to separate, not only in terms of physical proximity to each another, but also in terms of the support they'd be able to provide to one another (in the form is summons, _Kage Bunshin_ and the like). They would _work together_.

This thread set out to prove that in close-quarters combat, not many ninja _can_ "fodderise" Tsunade - even those who are some degree faster than her. Even if she is up against all odds, her regeneration technique should at the very least give her some survivability. In a team battle, she is not going to be "picked off" so easily. Once again, I could go through the full extent of Tsunade's supportive capabilities (it's _not_ just healing, as you put it), but I think that would be best saved for another thread.


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## Googleplex (Jul 18, 2011)

Suu said:


> Ah I see it now. Wow, you do learn something new every day. Thanks for that.
> 
> I think it is a little suspect to assume that Sage Mode grants recovery power anywhere near the level of, say, a full-time mini-Katsuyu providing ranged healing from Tsunade. For example, Jiraiya's arm wound was still bleeding for some time after his injury was inflicted, and we know that one of the purposes of medical ninjutsu is to stifle bleeding.



True. Although I suppose if one wanted you could poke at Jiraiya's Sage Mode mastery, for example, you can say if he had Naruto's mastery of Sage Mode his wound would've healed even faster. 
But despite Sage Mode's healing at any level of mastery, I doubt a SM user like Jiraiya would go without needing medical ninja. So in a team fight Tsunade would be pivotal for someone like Jiraiya.

But I assume with Sage Mode's healing people will make the mistake of generalising Naruto's recovery attributes to Jiraiya; Naruto has better mastery and the Kyuubi (possibly a marriage between the two as well) whereas Jiraiya does not.
If anyone, Naruto is someone in a team battle that'd not require medical ninja to aid him. 
Then again he is the main character to fight surreal opponents so he was _built_ like that.

Other shinobi such as Jiraiya don't have that luxury, which is probably why I think AKmyWaffle is wrong in saying Tsunade would play no real role in battle.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 18, 2011)

Suu said:


> Ah I see it now. Wow, you do learn something new every day. Thanks for that.
> 
> I think it is a little suspect to assume that Sage Mode grants recovery power anywhere near the level of, say, a full-time mini-Katsuyu providing ranged healing from Tsunade. For example, Jiraiya's arm wound was still bleeding for some time after his injury was inflicted, and we know that one of the purposes of medical ninjutsu is to stifle bleeding.



That's the blood from Jiraiya's right arm the one that got pierced by Pain's, by the looks of it his left arm which got blown off was not bleeding at that point.



> Ah yes, Googleplex has kindly enlightened me upon Sage Mode healing properties.
> 
> Also, don't be too sure of yourself there. Tsunade may be weaker than them on an individual level, but the three of them have decades worth of teamwork experience. They have spent years perfecting the timing, communication and effectiveness of their tactics, and together they'd probably have an array of combination manoeuvres available for use. You also have to consider things like knowledge and location factors, both of which Tsunade can certainly abuse.



They didn't really hit their prime until after their team disbanded, or at least Oro didn't. So their teamwork wouldn't really fit in with their current fighting style. And even then I doubt that Tsunade could do anything but slow down the others. After all she was barely keeping up with them while they were massively handicapped. 

In terms of knowledge I doubt that Tsunade is more knowledgeable than either Jiraiya or Oro when it comes to anything but medicine. 



> What many people do not realise is that the dynamics of battle change drastically in a group scenario. A lot of people make the mistake of saying "Well, in an A, B, C vs. X, Y, Z battle, A fights X, B fights Y, and C fights Z". In reality, it would probably look nothing like that. Especially if, in this case, A, B and C have had decades worth of experience fighting alongside each other. The Sannin would be hard to separate, not only in terms of physical proximity to each another, but also in terms of the support they'd be able to provide to one another (in the form is summons, _Kage Bunshin_ and the like). They would _work together_.



See the problem I'm having with them working as a team would be the same problem I see with Sakura working as a part of team 7. 

She is simply too slow, sure she has power but when it comes to speed she is literally a snail compared to the others. And even with all of her power her techniques completely pale in comparison to Naruto's and Sasuke's.



> This thread set out to prove that in close-quarters combat, not many ninja _can_ "fodderise" Tsunade - even those who are some degree faster than her. Even if she is up against all odds, her regeneration technique should at the very least give her some survivability. In a team battle, she is not going to be "picked off" so easily. Once again, I could go through the full extent of Tsunade's supportive capabilities (it's _not_ just healing, as you put it), but I think that would be best saved for another thread.



I think you accomplished the goal you set out to accomplish. But I am not convinced that Tsunade could keep up with her teammates. I'm looking forward to your next thread.


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## Specter Von Baren (Jul 18, 2011)

First thing, if I don't address a point then that means I don't see any problem with it.



Suu said:


> Orochimaru himself - a ninja who has fought alongside Tsunade for  decades, making him somewhat of an expert regarding the full extent of  her strength - tells Kabuto that a single blow from Tsunade can _kill_




And a single hit with a kunai whether it be to a vital spot or due to poison can kill. Rassangan can do the same, so can a sword, or chidori, or Lee's fist when he's used his gates, or Bee's lariat, ect. ect. I'm not saying her ability is at all bad, I'm saying it gives her no more edge than anyone else in this series



Suu said:


> Less strength-focused fighters, such as Rock Lee in base mode, need to land _full hits_  if they wish to deal any significant form of damage to their opponents.  Partial hits would essentially have little-to-no effect upon foes, and  only serve to waste precious energy and chakra.



What does a "partial hit" mean? Can you give an example?



Suu said:


> Particularly powerful  hits from Tsunade can create shock waves, which may also serve to  disrupt enemy movement [].  One might even suggest that terrain effects are well-suited for  combating swifter opponents, who focus more on speed rather than careful  footing or maintaining a firm grounding [27].



First. The example you gave for shockwaves did not come from Tsunade. Since this is for the battledome, potential effects can't be used in this, only on record ones. Second, we've seen ninja jump from place to place numerous times while under enemy fire without losing their balance. Though I'd be want to say they could in real life, in this manga is seems that the ninja are well trained in adapting to these situations and making split second reactions. Not to say they couldn't but it seems unlikely given the way they've been portrayed so far.



Suu said:


> For instance, should Tsunade attempt to create a fissure beneath an opponent, staying put would result in a debilitating fall [],



Poor example. A far outclassed kid with a hot head.



Suu said:


> The act of jumping can prove surprisingly precarious for ninja, due to  the inability to a dodge in midair (barring flight) and the rather  predictable ascent and descent movement pattern [].



What does that panel have to do with what you're saying? You talked about a situation where the ground becomes a place a ninja wants to get away from and so they leap away in potentially an upwards, backwards, or side direction then give a panel of someone leaping towards someone and then landing in front of them to attack them. What? That panel makes no sense in the context of your thought.



Suu said:


> Particularly in situations where enemies have positioned themselves  upon some kind of physical structure, Tsunade can essentially force her  foes into a Catch 22, in which they must choose either to stay and risk  losing their balance [], or jump and risk becoming open to attack.



Again. Not a pic of Tsunade doing what you say she could. The example you gave of Tsunade showed her making a large crack in the ground, the pic you gave showed a fight that has nothing to do with her that showed a someone being slammed into the ground by someone else. Not a Tsunade feat, not a feat used to catch someone off balance or attack them in the air. Please do note however that if I'm actually missing something, it's only because the pics you're linking us to are minimized so much that it's hard to see what's going on in most of them.



Suu said:


> Following on from this point, it is equally possible for Tsunade to use  her strength to cause shrapnel-like damage. Stray blows may  inadvertently destroy the terrain, with the sheer force of impact  capable of sending pieces of terrain and debris flying in all directions  at high speeds [].  Debris that does hit enemies may disrupt their balance, disorient them,  hinder their movement, and in rare cases may even injure them [][].  Although this has never been shown to cause problems for Tsunade or any  opponent of hers specifically, debris damage has been known to pose  threats to unwary ninja in the past [36][37]. A solid hit to the head can easily knock a lesser ninja out cold [][39], and even veteran ninja are not immune to harm [40].



First pic, doesn't show someone getting hurt by shrapnel. Second pic, not Tsunade, though at least in this case I can understand if a house fell down on someone but then again, in most fights ninja are outside or try to get outside in order to fight. Third pic is again not Tsunade doing this, fourth pic isn't Tsuande doing it, neither is the fifth, sixth, or seventh. You can't bring chance into battledome topics and they will be laughed at even in the library if you went into the battledome and said, "Well Tsunade beat him because although she missed a stray rock hit her opponent in the back of the head and knocked him out." It's far too situational and random. You need to give concrete examples and possibilities.



Suu said:


> Lastly, many people overlook the advantage Tsunade may have in  close-quarters combat against enemies who initially possess no knowledge  of her superhuman strength. In close-quarters, some may have a  preference for _blocking_ or _parrying_ incoming hits.  Irrefutably, an attempt to block a full-powered punch from Tsunade would  result in broken bones and grievous injury for her opponent - perhaps  even death [].



You can make that case for any ninja. If they don't know about such and such a technique. Again, battledome fights can't use this kind of stuff, it makes the arguments too much of a random unknowable thing.



Suu said:


> Moreover, it should be noted that some taijutsu manoeuvres may not work  against Tsunade simply by merit of her upper body strength; Tsunade can  easily overwhelm opponents who attempt grapple-tactics on her [42], and can send opponents flying should they attempt taijutsu manoeuvres such as leg-binds [43].



Though she has shown the ability to make super hits, she does not have super resilience. Her strength has been shown to be due to chakra and not her actual muscles, you can tell this easily by looking at her arms. There is also no actual evidence for her being super resiliant in the manga, you can't fill this up with, "Tsunade may be". Show taijutsu not working on her.

Now on to the next part of your post...


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 18, 2011)

Specter Von Baren said:


> And a single hit with a kunai whether it be to a vital spot or due to poison can kill. Rassangan can do the same, so can a sword, or chidori, or Lee's fist when he's used his gates, or Bee's lariat, ect. ect. I'm not saying her ability is at all bad, I'm saying it gives her no more edge than anyone else in this series



I think the emphasis was placed on the word "you" for a reason there. Sure there are plenty of ways to kill humans beings, a punch can even kill in our world. But we are talking about Kabuto here, the same guy who tanked rasengan.


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## Specter Von Baren (Jul 18, 2011)

Suu said:


> Example 1A:Due to Tsunade's rusty and tired out state,  Kabuto had the edge over her during their brief close-quarters tussle.  Although he landed the first hit upon her, Tsunade was still able to  counter-attack swiftly [44]. Other ninja, such as Shizune and Naruto, were incapacitated almost _immediately_ after being hit by chakra scalpels [45][46].  The fact that Tsunade could continue moving under those conditions, let  alone counter-attack, is a feat of resilience in itself.​




Since you're linking to single pages that I can't look at the last or next pages of, I'll go by what I see. I see Tsunade moving with an attack and Kabuto hitting her with chakra scalpels while she's doing so, it isn't moving after being hit, she's moving because she was moving before her even used them. I'm seeing more and more examples of you GIVING examples that have nothing to do with the point you're making.
​


Suu said:


> Example 1B:In  a similar example, an exhausted (hampered movement) and rusty (hampered  movement) Tsunade, who had just had her leg muscles cut (hampered  movement) and subcostal muscle injured (greatly hampered movement;  according to Kabuto it would have normally "stopped a person in their  tracks" [47]),  was able to get up off her knees, run towards and behind Kabuto, and  hit him with a debilitating jutsu in the second or so he had held his  eyes shut [48].  The mere fact that she could continue moving in this state surprised  even her opponent, and is a huge testament to her ability to continue  moving and attacking despite sustaining multiple movement-impairing  ailments.​




Wasn't this scene after she got hit by some other attack? I could have sworn Tsunade did something before this to make it so she could move again. Correct me if I'm wrong.
​


Suu said:


> Example 1C:Tsunade was rusty, tired  out, had her leg muscles cut, a potentially not-yet-fully-healed  subcostal muscle injury, various abrasions from Kabuto's assault, and  slashes from Orochimaru's Kusanagi sword up along her shoulder, across  her torso and straight through her chest, and yet we discover that the  only thing that was _really_ hampering her movement - and  subsequently stopping her from attacking - was her hematophobia. Why?  Because the moment she overcame it, she was able to get up off the  ground (from an inconvenient starting position [49]) and hit Orochimaru square in the face [50].  This was an Orochimaru who had been watching her intently enough to notice exactly when her trembling had stopped [51],  and thus it must have been a swift hit indeed. Once again, the fact  that she was even able to attack Orochimaru, much less hit him, despite  several potentially mortal wounds ailing her, speaks volumes for her  resilience.​




She used her rebirth jutsu to regenerate, this is not her base mode. If you're making the case that her jutsu is very useful to repair herself from lethal attacks, okay, but it seems like you were trying to imply she could do this without the jutsu. Despite how long this post is, it seems like you didn't really take the time to go over these pages and are only using them to make it seem like you have a stronger argument.
​


Suu said:


> Example 1D:During Pain's invasion of Konoha, Tsunade was hit by Deva Realm Pain's heightened _Shinra Tensei_  without the protection of Katsuyu, and was still able to move  relatively well afterward, reaching Naruto mere moments after the blast [].
> This is the same jutsu that possessed enough force to destroy every single building in Konoha and send the entire village _hundreds of metres_  below ground level. We later discover that the main factor hampering  Tsunade from fighting was not the number or extent of the injuries she  had sustained from being hit with this force, but rather chakra  exhaustion [].  Whilst others in the vicinity may have replicated this feat, it does  not detract from her feat of resilience, especially given the fact that  others have nearly died after being hit by normal _Shinra Tensei_ attacks.​



Second verse, same as the first.
She had Katsuya focus her healing ability on everyone but I assume she also was using it on herself. This is again a property of her jutsu, not her base resilience. The ability is not resiliance, it doesn't prevent damage, what it does is cause fast regeneration when damaged, it wouldn't say, keep her alive if someone cut her head off from her shoulders as those are still the same as a normal human's. It's like what Kabuto tried to do with Naruto's rassangan attack.



Suu said:


> To amplify to her ability to take on damage and continue moving and attacking, Tsunade has her _Sōzō Saisei_  jutsu. This S-ranked supplementary ninjutsu grants her a constant  regenerative effect that lasts several minutes, allowing her to quickly  regrow entire organs and limbs [54], and requiring little more than the clasping of hands together to activate [55],  with apparently little-to-no concentration needed to keep the  regeneration running afterward. Tsunade specifically distinguishes this  jutsu from mere 'healing', labelling it 'regeneration' instead; indeed,  the databook goes to lengths to describe _Sōzō Saisei_ as the 'ultimate medical ninjutsu' because of its ability to transcend the normal limitations of medical ninjutsu [].



Regeneration IS healing, the only difference is that it isn't healing from an outside source, our bodies do it all the time. It's the same thing she used for your resilience examples, it's not an extra feat, it's the same feat you were talking about before.



Suu said:


> Take Example 1A for instance. Kabuto has the speed advantage over  Tsunade at this point in time, due to factors such as her rustiness and  tiredness. He is fast enough to avoid her attacks and get close to her,  ultimately landing the first few hits. However, after landing those  hits, even Kabuto had to cop a counter-attack from Tsunade [57].



Not a counter attack.


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## Specter Von Baren (Jul 18, 2011)

Suu said:


> Example 1E:A rusty Tsunade chased Orochimaru and Kabuto all  the way from Tanzaku Castle to the Sannin Battlefield plains, destroying  everything in her path with her chakra-enhanced strength. She then  fought Kabuto, utilising not only strength but also _Ranshinshō_, and even healed herself. After a brief period of time out of action, she released _Sōzō Saisei_, summoned Katsuyu (and mind you, a summoning jutsu of that scale apparently requires a fair amount of chakra [62]), and proceeded to lift Gamabunta's tantō - presumably with chakra-enhanced strength again - and 'super jump' with it [] (something that may have utilised the same mechanics as a _Shunshin no Jutsu_,  which is chakra-fueled), before slamming it down upon Manda's mouth.  She then knocked Orochimaru out with a single, chakra-enhanced punch.  Even then, doing all of that did not seem to exhaust Tsunade of all her  chakra. When she began trembling and staggering after the battle, she  attributed it to the aftereffects of her _Sōzō Saisei_ jutsu rather than chakra or stamina exhaustion [64].​



Her chakra punches don't use allot of chakra, remember what is required for them is chakra control, very little actual chakra is required to use them. Also, are we talking about chakra and stamina as two different things or the same things? If they are the same, then I bring forth the problem that Tsuande loses all of her chakra when she uses her jutsu for regeneration and seeing how she didn't turn it off after the fight with Orochimaru, we could thereby assume, as you are want to do, that she in fact CAN'T turn it off once it's on and therefore once she uses it she has to end the fight before she loses all of her chakra.



Suu said:


> Example 1F:Another  example of Tsunade's high stamina can be observed through her actions  during the Pain Invasion Arc. There, not only did she summon Katsuyu,  but she proceeded to use her summon as a medium to heal _thousands_ of villagers and Shinobi [65] - and according to her, healing just one wound requires a great deal of chakra [66].  Although she did inevitably fall into a comatose state due to chakra  exhaustion, the fact that she was able to heal so many people  simultaneously and consecutively reflects highly upon her stamina.​As high chakra control is a requirement for both medical ninjutsu [67] and strength-enhancement [68],  we can deduce that Tsunade's control over her chakra must be  exceptional indeed. With this supreme chakra control, even when she is  low on stamina, she can continue to use ninjutsu, strength, and anything  chakra-based to maximum efficiency with no chakra wastage [69].  Whilst not strictly classified under stamina, her ability to utilise  her chakra at maximum efficiency will no doubt place less of a strain  upon her stamina during battle.



I don't remember chakra efficiency ever being brought up before, who are we comparing her efficiency to? What is the standard for normal chakra efficiency? 



Suu said:


> So how might Tsunade's high stamina and chakra efficiency help her in  close-quarters combat? For ninja who have comparatively low amounts of  stamina, they must rely on their speed and lethality of attacks to  finish the battle as quickly as possible, lest they suffer from  exhaustion. Needless to say, a ninja who continues to fight with  insufficient stamina is going to be considerably hampered in a variety  of ways: movement, reaction time, judgement and other cognitive  functions, etc. Tsunade can use her superior stamina and chakra  efficiency - along with her high resilience to damage - to 'outlast'  opponents and slowly wear them down. Once her opponent is in a state of  exhaustion, they will become easy pickings for her.



And who has low stamina that we know of? Itachi, and Kakashi I can recall, this is a rather low denominator here. Unless we're talking fodder ninja then aside from these two, who are you claiming Tsunade has a huge advantage over? We've never seen a war of attrition used on someone before in this manga, there's no place for us to compare except for Shikamaru giving up on his match in the exams. But chakra and stamina aren't the same thing, I saw Naruto get tired out with his fight with Sasuke even though he had assess to an infinite supply of chakra at that time in the form of the Kyuubi. Have you ever shown Tsunade using a tactic of outlasting her opponent in battle before? The feats you gave of her massive chakra have been times when she's called on her stored supply which she only uses for her regeneration ability which means it's not part of her actual supply of chakra but an E-tank that can be used for only one ability in her arsenal.


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## Specter Von Baren (Jul 18, 2011)

Suu said:


> Do not be fooled into thinking that Tsunade's mission and war experience  merely consists of non-combat, medical support roles; she did not  become _feared_ around the world as one of the Legendary Sannin  simply for being a healer.



Yet we've not seen any actual example of her fighting ability to be anywhere near on par with her fellow Sannin. You can't tell us to not be fooled when you yourself have seen just as much as we have.



Suu said:


> Furthermore, Tsunade is not only famous for  her medical skills but also her strength and unbending will [73][74],  suggesting that combat - specifically close-quarters combat - was  prominent during the years she spent out in the field earning a  reputation for herself. Jiraiya himself, her teammate of many years,  claims that _both_ her medical and combat skills were of great importance during the wars




She was known for the strength of her punches yes. Her combat skills have been SAID to be important but they have not been shown to be that great in her showings, could she be great? Yes. Has she actually shown this? No. You can't use off panel evidence for these discussions.



Suu said:


> Without question, Tsunade's high intellect, paired with her incredible memory [82],  should allow her to apply her vast battle experience to any combat  situation. These factors will inevitably go a long way when it comes to  her anticipatory skills.



This comment is kind of misleading in my opinion. Inteligence does not equate to all fields, we've seen Tsunade to have vast knowledge of medicine but that doesn't translate to combat intelligence. Proof is in Naruto, Naruto can be a genius in a fight but outside of it he's shown himself to for the most part be an idiot. Just because someone is a rocket scientist doesn't mean they could also tell you how to win a war.



Suu said:


> At this point I am going to make an assumption,



How shocking.



Suu said:


> We caught a glimpse of it when Sakura battled Sasori and his Sandaime  Kazekage puppet. At first, Chiyo was needed to help her evade Sasori's  attacks, puppeteering her around the battlefield. Eventually, however,  Sakura began seeing patterns and regularities in Sasori's manoeuvres,  and towards the end was even starting to show signs of being able to  dodge _without_ assistance from Chiyo [84]. This is not because Sasori's attacks became any _slower_ or that Sakura became any _faster_,  but rather because she was beginning to anticipate his attacks and  dodge accordingly. For further reading on the mechanics of Sakura's  method of evasion, see Mizura's thread [].
> 
> Now imagine if Sakura possessed as much experience as Tsunade. That is,  she went out into the world, fought in many battles, and faced all kinds  of enemies. As she does so, the number of attack patterns she becomes  exposed to _increases_, and thus she becomes able to anticipate -  and subsequently know how to evade - an even larger array of different  attack styles. That is Tsunade.



Traits of Sakura do not equal traits of Tsunade. What would you say if I said everything that Jiraiya could do so could Naruto? That just by merits of Jiraiya being his teacher that Naruto also can use swamp of the underworld and the hair needle jutsu's even though he's never once displayed these abilities?


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## elephant_roar (Jul 18, 2011)

I fail to see how the "close-combat" limitation is relevant? I've yet to see a fight where one character stops and pleads to the other, "hey don't use any long-range attacks plz" or "lolz you can't use Almighty Push on me!". 

In the grand scheme of things, Tsunade is weak. She is not equal to the other 2 Sannin, and I am willing to bet it is because she is a woman. 

Even when you set forth a silly limitation such as "close-combat" only, Tsunade is still outclassed by the likes of the Raikage, Sage Mode Jiraiya, Naruto, Sasuke, Itachi, whatever. Furthermore, such characters aren't strictly limited to "close-combat" only. 

I used to think her Rebirth ability was amazing, but it has one of the most lethal drawbacks in the series. Even Amateratsu spam isn't as dangerous as shortening your lifespan. Have you noticed how aged Tsunade is in comparison to Jiraiya? 

Like I said, "super strength" and even "healing" to some extent, aren't admirable qualities because they are often a byproduct of plot. Sheer determination and the "will of fire" = superman powers.


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## Time Expired (Jul 18, 2011)

Suu  been so long since I've seen you write about or defend Tsunade - too long.  This is an excellent, excellent essay.  Love it.  

I don't feel that Tsunade has been given enough time in the manga.  I love that she became Hokage, but want to see her in action.  She lived through a war, and earned her title just as her peers did - to me that speaks volumns.  We have to conclude that she's been in some very tight spots against some vicious opponents in the thick of some real heavy skirmishes.  Hopefully we will see the full extent of what she is capable of in this current conflict.  

Again - excellent essay.  Reps +


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## Specter Von Baren (Jul 18, 2011)

Suu said:


> Tsunade has proven herself capable of reacting to attacks in which she has had little-to-no forewarning



As have many ninja, this isn't a special ability, we've seen all the ninja in this manga show amazing reflexes. 



Suu said:


> It is easy to discard taijutsu skill as simply 'speed plus lethality of  attacks', but in practice I believe it is so much more. Let us examine some  examples of where speed and lethality of attacks are more or less  equalised, so as to highlight the difference in taijutsu skill as the  main reason why one ninja can have the upper hand over another in  close-quarters combat.



Indeed. Taijutsu skill is also derived from fighting styles and training in these styles, Tsunade has shown no such training. She has shown the rudimentary skills of blocking and punching but in cases like Lee, who specializes in the art of taijutsu, she isn't the same thing.



Suu said:


> Example 1G:During Sasuke's battle with Danzō, there was no  apparent disparity in speed between the two, and Sasuke even possessed  the range advantage with his sword. Despite this, Danzō was able to land  the first hit against Sasuke [98],  most likely due to his superior skill in hand-to-hand fighting.​




..... No. He just grabbed Sasuke before he stabbed him.  Style does not equate speed.



Suu said:


> Without a doubt, especially against less experienced or less skilled  ninja, Tsunade's taijutsu skill is representative of her ability to  perceive openings, take advantage of them, and use the right taijutsu  manoeuvres to match the situation.



Cutting to the chase here. You gave allot of examples of OTHER people and then said at the end that Tsunade is just like them. Give ACTUAL examples of Tsunade doing what you say she can do.

Over all I see a huge post with lot's of flowy words and uses of page examples to try and make your arguments seem better. You lead the reader on with examples of other events in the manga and then come back around to say, "Now can't you see how TSUNADE is like that?" I'd much prefer a brass tacks approach to this, one that cuts to the point instead of hiding behind so much prose.

I've heard allot of analysis of old world battles where one side would be feared as being deadly for a particular skill like their cavalry but then in practice it gets completely shattered by factors people don't take into account until put into practice. The cavalry I just talked about? Was destroyed by large numbers of missile weapons, guns. You can give these isolated cases for the strength of something but it can mean nothing when the actual fight starts. Another example is the Germans had superior equipment (For the mos part) and tactics, the element of surprise on a massive scale, all these factors came together when the went to fight Russia and everyone in the world in the other countries thought Russia would lose in less than a month but quickly everyone found that the Germans had actually bit off far more than they could chew, they were repulsed by the size of the country they were going into, the desperation and heroism of their opponents, the severity and atrociousness of the leader of the their opponents tactics. You're giving things that look good on paper but it means nothing without actual testing and results which you can't GET in a manga! You can only look at what HAS happened and use that as your basis.

I can't do this anymore, I'm out of here.​


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## Marik Swift (Jul 19, 2011)

Was gonna read through the hold thing and counter everything you said, but got passed the strength part and felt like I was reading a term of agreement.

Good work but I don't see a simple shiver shaking a high tier ninja of their feet. A was able to smash Sasuke into the ground creating a massive earth smash yet for all kept his balance.​


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## Aldric (Jul 19, 2011)

Tsunade's combat feats undeniably suck but to be honest most of them come from part 1 and the manga's powerlevels have been retconned up the ass since then so she might be far stronger than what she's shown

Problem is Kishimoto would have to not be a frustrated loser with a chip on his shoulder when it comes to women for her to have an interesting fight showing what she can really do

So she's doomed to suck sorry Tsunade fan guy who wrote a thesis for nothing


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## Summers (Jul 19, 2011)

Marik Swift said:


> Was gonna read through the hold thing and counter everything you said, but got passed the strength part and felt like I was reading a* term of agreement.*
> 
> Good work but I don't see a simple shiver shaking a high tier ninja of their feet. A was able to smash Sasuke into the ground creating a massive earth smash yet for all kept his balance.​



LOL. 

I wonder what the reaction would be if Kishi does decide to put her in this war and in order to make up for the lack of front line attention he has given her, Hyped the shit out of her, I would react the same way I did when Naruto busted out RM on those Zetsu.


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## Suu (Jul 19, 2011)

Thanks for making an effort to read and respond, Specter Von Baren. I will respond to your points later.



Googleplex said:


> True. Although I suppose if one wanted you could poke at Jiraiya's Sage Mode mastery, for example, you can say if he had Naruto's mastery of Sage Mode his wound would've healed even faster.
> But despite Sage Mode's healing at any level of mastery, I doubt a SM user like Jiraiya would go without needing medical ninja. So in a team fight Tsunade would be pivotal for someone like Jiraiya.


I completely agree (not only with the above, but your entire post; had to cut it for character limit). Thanks for your input!

I'd also add something about ninja whose self-healing abilities stem from the consumption of their own energy/chakra somehow (Sage Mode might not, but Orochimaru's own regenerative abilities/oral rebirth probably do). If they have somebody else heal them, they can conserve this chakra and focus all their energy upon offence. Similarly, ninja whose self-healing abilities require them to stop what they're doing and focus on healing themselves would also benefit from having Tsunade healing them remotely via Katsuyu, once again to allow them to focus upon other activities (like offence). 



AKmyWaffle said:


> That's the blood from Jiraiya's right arm the one that got pierced by Pain's, by the looks of it his left arm which got blown off was not bleeding at that point.


Yeah, that's the arm I was referring to. The one that was stabbed by Animal Realm Pain. It was stabbed half a chapter before the page I linked, and yet was still bleeding. Not a _huge_ length of time elapsed, I know, but enough to put the "Kyuubi's healing" far above "Sage Mode healing" (at least, from what we've seen of the Kyuubi's healing speed).



> They didn't really hit their prime until after their team disbanded, or at least Oro didn't. So their teamwork wouldn't really fit in with their current fighting style. And even then I doubt that Tsunade could do anything but slow down the others. After all she was barely keeping up with them while they were massively handicapped.


I agree that their styles may have changed quite a bit since their days of fighting alongside one another, but surely not significantly enough to completely throw their decades of teamwork experience straight out the window? Plus, it's not all about "jutsu available" per se, but also the timing of their attacks, communication and an innate understanding of each others' battle instincts and inclinations. Those factors, at the very least, will not change even if their skillsets have changed drastically since they last worked together.



> In terms of knowledge I doubt that Tsunade is more knowledgeable than either Jiraiya or Oro when it comes to anything but medicine.


We can only speculate, but _I_ believe Tsunade may possess the most knowledge of the three. As Hokage, every ninja in the village reports to her about their missions, and all external parties come to her whenever they wish to inform "Konoha" about anything. She has access to and receives all intel gained on wanted criminals and noteworthy ninja, including their abilities, histories and whatnot.

If we're talking about straight combat experience, then the databook does support the assertion that Orochimaru and Jiraiya are superior to her (if only just). However, if we're talking knowledge in terms of the Battledome (ie. knowledge of one's opponent), Tsunade is more likely to prove herself superior to her former teammates here.



> I think you accomplished the goal you set out to accomplish. But I am not convinced that Tsunade could keep up with her teammates. I'm looking forward to your next thread.


Thanks mate, that means a lot to me. Also, I'll respond to your Sakura analogy when I post the second part of this primer at a later date (remind me if I forget!). 



elephant_roar said:


> I fail to see how the "close-combat" limitation is relevant? I've yet to see a fight where one character stops and pleads to the other, "hey don't use any long-range attacks plz" or "lolz you can't use Almighty Push on me!".


Actually, the close-quarters combat "restriction", as you put it, was not my way of trying to manipulate the responses in this thread to suit my needs. I merely did it for formatting reasons; if you look at the heading of this essay, you'll see that this is _part one_ of a primer. I had already written most of the primer, and decided to split it into "close-quarters", "long-ranged" and "support" for convenience.

I hope you can understand my reasons for doing so.



> Even when you set forth a silly limitation such as "close-combat" only, Tsunade is still outclassed by the likes of the Raikage, Sage Mode Jiraiya, Naruto, Sasuke, Itachi, whatever. Furthermore, such characters aren't strictly limited to "close-combat" only.


You're saying that Tsunade is outclassed by the highest of the high tier in close-quarters combat. I already made that admission in the conclusion of my essay.



> I used to think her Rebirth ability was amazing, but it has one of the most lethal drawbacks in the series. Even Amateratsu spam isn't as dangerous as shortening your lifespan. Have you noticed how aged Tsunade is in comparison to Jiraiya?


I realise that _Souzou Saisei_ has negative side-effects, but this in itself is no reasons to discredit its potential usefulness in close-quarters combat.



> Like I said, "super strength" and even "healing" to some extent, aren't admirable qualities because they are often a byproduct of plot. Sheer determination and the "will of fire" = superman powers.


I am not sure what you mean by trying to tie "plot" with Tsunade's abilities. Do you mind clarifying yourself here? 



Soul Assassin said:


> Suu  been so long since I've seen you write about or defend Tsunade - too long.  This is an excellent, excellent essay.  Love it.


Thanks!



> I don't feel that Tsunade has been given enough time in the manga.  I love that she became Hokage, but want to see her in action.  She lived through a war, and earned her title just as her peers did - to me that speaks volumns.  We have to conclude that she's been in some very tight spots against some vicious opponents in the thick of some real heavy skirmishes.  Hopefully we will see the full extent of what she is capable of in this current conflict.


Fingers crossed she'll show us something. Having said that, part of her appeal (to me, at least) is the fact that her character is so controversial and widely underestimated here. It is way more fun to go for the underdog; I can't imagine being a fan of an extremely powerful ninja like Naruto or Minato for that reason alone. 



Marik Swift said:


> Was gonna read through the hold thing and counter everything you said, but got passed the strength part and felt like I was reading a term of agreement.
> 
> Good work but I don't see a simple shiver shaking a high tier ninja of their feet. A was able to smash Sasuke into the ground creating a massive earth smash yet for all kept his balance.​


Haha, thanks for at least trying Marik. It's funny that you say that; I originally come from a Law background, and am now in my final year of a Commerce degree. I suppose writing in a "terms of agreement"-style is something that has become a little ingrained in me. I apologise if it's proven insufferable for you. 

A high tier ninja might not have problems with so-called "terrain effects" (Tsunade and A themselves haven't, after all), but the mid and lower tier ninja (it feels a bit funny talking about ninja in terms of "tiers"; it's not something I would normally do) would probably struggle a little, as proven by some of the links I provided. Can you believe how many people believe ninja like Kiba, Neji and Lee would defeat Tsunade simply by merit of their [supposedly] superior speed? And those are the kind of ninja I _definitely_ see being affected by earthquakes, fissures and whatnot.



Aldric said:


> Tsunade's combat feats undeniably suck but to be honest most of them come from part 1 and the manga's powerlevels have been retconned up the ass since then so she might be far stronger than what she's shown
> 
> Problem is Kishimoto would have to not be a frustrated loser with a chip on his shoulder when it comes to women for her to have an interesting fight showing what she can really do
> 
> So she's doomed to suck sorry Tsunade fan guy who wrote a thesis for nothing


You're entitled to that opinion. I _hope_ that Tsunade will live up to her hype, but even I can admit that Kishi...well, is Kishi. Then again, he did give Konan a fairly decent sendoff (not perfect, obviously, but not bad), so who knows? He might surprise us. 

Also, perhaps _you_ have gained nothing from this essay, but others have. That alone has made all of my hard work worth it. =)


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## elephant_roar (Jul 19, 2011)

> I am not sure what you mean by trying to tie "plot" with Tsunade's abilities. Do you mind clarifying yourself here?



Speed and strength are relative. There have been plenty of situations wherein willpower, anger, hatred, and other strong emotions have lead to direct increases in resilience, recovery or power. To break or lift a boulder isn't an impressive task, in my eyes, because any character is capable of accomplishing that task if the plot deems it necessary. Yet, not every character, is capable of using Almighty Push, Rasengan, Chidori whathaveyou. Tsunade doesn't have anything that's unique. I guess you can make a case for Genesis Rebirth, but you don't even need such a jutsu when you have the "will of fire" on your side.


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## Akitō (Jul 19, 2011)

I'm usually not one to interrupt discussions, but considering the vast amount of posts that Suu is having to respond to, I thought I'd try to help relieve his workload. I apologize if it seems as if I'm barging in. 



Specter Von Baren said:


> First. The example you gave for shockwaves did not come from Tsunade. Since this is for the battledome, potential effects can't be used in this, only on record ones.



I've seen this misconception a lot lately, and I'm not exactly sure where it originated from. There are no rules in the Battledome that restrict you from using logic. Evidence doesn't necessarily have to appear in the form of manga panels or Databook entries. If there is an obvious reason as to why a certain character is powerful, then it's nearly _always_ applicable in the Battledome. 

If character X is _implied_ to be significantly stronger than character Y, then you can use that to support your stance. Now, you are not encouraged to _purely_ base your arguments off of hype, but that's only because each character _has_ to have a sufficient amount of feats to participate in a Battledome match – if you don't employ all the evidence at your disposal, you aren't doing justice to your own argument, right? 

It isn't illegal to use plot connections or "potential effects" in the Battledome; in fact, I personally enjoy reading arguments that utilize different forms of "evidence" (it's not exactly evidence, but I think you get my point). It shows that the member is thinking from various perspectives, rather than the bland and sometimes unreliable "feat-perspective". Anyone can continuously rant on about how jutsu X counters jutsu Y, justu A counters justu B, and therefore, character C beats character D. I would actually say that it almost becomes a formula after a while: compile a list of the characters' techniques, pit them against each-other, and whichever individual has the most counters wins. That isn't very analytical, in my mind. 

I'm sorry if this explanation seems a little lengthy. I've just been noticing more and more members saying, "Stop using hype. This is the BD, so hype is invalid." I could be completely wrong about this particular topic, and it may in fact be a rule that hype isn't eligible in the Battledome. However, I'm just glancing through the official rules, and that doesn't seem to be the case. I'd really appreciate it if a moderator from the Battledome could clarify on this point (Suu!). 



Specter Von Baren said:


> Over all I see a huge post with lot's of flowy words and uses of page examples to try and make your arguments seem better. You lead the reader on with examples of other events in the manga and then come back around to say, "Now can't you see how TSUNADE is like that?" I'd much prefer a brass tacks approach to this, one that cuts to the point instead of hiding behind so much prose.



It's perfectly fine to use someone else's feats, if of course Suu can prove that Tsunade can do the same thing. For example, his explanation about why cracking the ground could cause disorientation is a valid one. She used a panel portraying A brutalizing the ground, but that isn't a problem because Tsunade can perform a similar feat (to a lesser degree) with a single finger. If you compare the effort used by the two characters and the amount of ground broken, I think that you'd find it to be proportionally equivalent. As I said before, it's not illegal to use logic. 

The entire hypothesis would be more believable if Suu had simply used Tsunade's own feats, but there just aren't enough feats from Tsunade to conceivably support the notion that she can hang with higher caliber fighters. That doesn't necessarily mean that Tsunade's weaker than such characters; it just equates to her not having enough _direct_ feats (feats that she performed herself). 

Suu did the best he could with what he had, and it's not as if he's making farfetched assumptions – every comparison that he brought up is logically sound. 



> You're giving things that look good on paper but it means nothing without actual testing and results which you can't GET in a manga! You can only look at what HAS happened and use that as your basis.



And that's the entire dilemma that we Battledome members face. There isn't a _completely_ accurate way to determine the strength of each character. The best that we can do is provide theories, support those theories with examples, and pray that our theory is correct. The author of this manga can realistically do whatever he wishes; he could suddenly equip Tsunade with super-speed, and explain that she trained vigorously after her coma. We, as the readers, cannot predict such changes, and therefore, we can never be 100% confident when it comes to analyzing hypothetical fights. 

For example, we can judge a character's speed based off of his performance against another character, and then develop a convoluted method to tie that speed in with his adversary's speed. That's what we often do in the Battledome, and we're frequently correct. However, there are times when the author decides to randomly power up certain characters, and those are variables that we simply can't decipher – there's nothing wrong with that, because after all, it's not our decision. 

There really isn't any point in criticizing Suu's analysis of Tsunade, because _everyone_ knows that his essay could be a misinterpretation of the manga. Is there a good chance of that being true? I don't think so. There definitely is a chance, though, and that's simply due to the author's early mistakes. Unfortunately, there isn't anything Suu can do to prevent such instances from happening.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 20, 2011)

Suu said:


> Yeah, that's the arm I was referring to. The one that was stabbed by Animal Realm Pain. It was stabbed half a chapter before the page I linked, and yet was still bleeding. Not a _huge_ length of time elapsed, I know, but enough to put the "Kyuubi's healing" far above "Sage Mode healing" (at least, from what we've seen of the Kyuubi's healing speed).



Wasn't it just a few panels back? Like 10 seconds prior to removing the rod out of him?



> I agree that their styles may have changed quite a bit since their days of fighting alongside one another, but surely not significantly enough to completely throw their decades of teamwork experience straight out the window? Plus, it's not all about "jutsu available" per se, but also the timing of their attacks, communication and an innate understanding of each others' battle instincts and inclinations. Those factors, at the very least, will not change even if their skillsets have changed drastically since they last worked together.



Well just like Tsunade was rusty against Kabuto, don't you think their teamwork would be rusty after all those decades? 

Orochimaru and Jiraiya had stayed active and improved on their skills while Tsunade was taking time off, that's why I think there would be a relatively big gap in their skills.  Tsunade hasn't had a single team fight in decades now...

And how long ago was it that they were a team? 



> We can only speculate, but _I_ believe Tsunade may possess the most knowledge of the three. As Hokage, every ninja in the village reports to her about their missions, and all external parties come to her whenever they wish to inform "Konoha" about anything. She has access to and receives all intel gained on wanted criminals and noteworthy ninja, including their abilities, histories and whatnot.



Again I highly doubt it, even though she is the Hokage her intelligence network most likely pales in comparison to both Orochimaru and Jiraiya. Remember that Jiraiya basically was Konoha's intelligence network and that Tsunade's day to day duties involved assigning genin to hunt down cats and other boring paperwork. 

And with the 10 year gap, it's not like you can just make that time up out of nowhere. 



> If we're talking about straight combat experience, then the databook does support the assertion that Orochimaru and Jiraiya are superior to her (if only just). However, if we're talking knowledge in terms of the Battledome (ie. knowledge of one's opponent), Tsunade is more likely to prove herself superior to her former teammates here.



How so? Orochimaru had been experimenting on producing a Ridoku while Jiraiya is Konoha's spy master. 



> Thanks mate, that means a lot to me. Also, I'll respond to your Sakura analogy when I post the second part of this primer at a later date (remind me if I forget!).



I'll be looking forward to it.


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## Aster The Megalomaniac (Jul 20, 2011)

There's a reason why you're no longer a battledome mod.


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## Sans (Jul 20, 2011)

Care to elaborate? Or are you just going to be randomly condescending to someone?


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## xXHancockXx (Jul 20, 2011)

Well done! As expected you did an amazing job working this thread out, Suu. I am really impressed and it was a pleasure for me to read your argumentation. And there is absolutely nothing I could add, because you elaborated it perfectly alright.
It is always great to see, that there are still people, who are still believing in Tsunade and her abilities. Although she is underrated and we did not get to see more fights of her since the San-Nin-Battle it is clear, that she is not weak. Haters can say what they want, but she is stronger than many other ninjas. She is not a San-Nin, only because she was there along with Orochimaru and Jiraiya. She is not weak, because she was not able to kill Kabuto while she was in a weakened state. She is not useless, because she did not fight Pain. There is a reason why she was chosen to be the Hokage and Suu showed as those reasons.


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## Suu (Jul 21, 2011)

*@Specter Von Baren:*

*Spoiler*: __ 





> And a single hit with a kunai whether it be to a vital spot or due to poison can kill. Rassangan can do the same, so can a sword, or chidori, or Lee's fist when he's used his gates, or Bee's lariat, ect. ect. I'm not saying her ability is at all bad, I'm saying it gives her no more edge than anyone else in this series


AKmyWaffle more or less hit the nail on the head. I was more trying to emphasise the fact that this statement was made towards _Kabuto_ of all ninja, from a character who was highly knowledgeable of Kabuto's self-healing ability (Kabuto even goes so far as to say: "I gained Lord Orochimaru's favour...not because of my instincts...but _because_ of my recovery power!"). It should also be noted that Orochimaru was quite aware of the full capabilities of Tsunade's strength, having worked alongside her for many years, and potentially having deduced the fact that her strength had not diminished over the years (like Jiriaya did in moments).

*Spoiler*: __ 





AKmyWaffle said:


> I think the emphasis was placed on the word "you" for a reason there. Sure there are plenty of ways to kill humans beings, a punch can even kill in our world. But we are talking about Kabuto here, the same guy who tanked rasengan.





You'd be surprised how many people in Battledome threads, at least ones that involve opponents who have shown no outstanding defenses or resilience, contest Tsunade's "one hit KO" condition. I am not saying that Tsunade will _always_ kill in one hit, but Orochimaru's statement does give her strength some "credibility".



> What does a "partial hit" mean? Can you give an example?


Would it make more sense if I said "glancing blow"? A hit that may not connect _fully_, but still makes some sort of physical contact with the target.

There are many examples of "partial hits" in the manga. Kishimoto has, on several occasions, recognised the distinction between "full hits" and "partial hits" (although he does not necessarily use the same terminology as I do). For example, Kabuto remarks about Orochimaru taking the hit "straight on" (in the official Viz translation), as opposed to Chiyo's statement that "_even_ a slight scratch" from Sasori could be fatal.

An obvious example would be the Hyūga clan's _Jūken_ ability. In that link, onlookers remark on how Hinata's hit "isn't deep enough" (ie. not a "full hit"), but on the next page Lee explains that even "a slight touch" (ie. a "partial hit") is enough to cause substantial pain. Obviously Tsunade does not possess the ability to use _Jūken_, but similarly, there is no such thing as a hit from Tsunade that is "not deep enough". Any physical contact with her attacks, even if it is just the brush of a single finger, can inflict some serious injuries.

Other non-hand-to-hand (but still close-quarters combat) related examples include the use of weaponry in the manga. A "full hit" from a kunai could potentially prove fatal or cause the loss of limbs, but a "partial hit" would only result in only minor bleeding. Adding poison to a kunai, however, ensures that even a "partial hit" could prove dangerous. Once again, Tsunade's attacks aren't poisonous of course, but her ability to exert superhuman strength from even the smallest extremities of her body makes, as explained in my essay, every inch of her body a deadly weapon. 

I can think of plenty more examples of "partial hits", but hopefully this is enough to clear things up.



> First. The example you gave for shockwaves did not come from Tsunade. Since this is for the battledome, potential effects can't be used in this, only on record ones.


I am not sure what makes you think so-called "potential effects" cannot be used as evidence in the Battledome. First of all, "cannot" is a strong word to use; if you mean to say it is against the Battledome rules, this is simply . If you mean to say it is frowned upon in general...well, I cannot claim to know the section any better than the next person (especially with my recent inactivity), but in my year or so of moderating the section, and my years of loyalty before that, I have never once observed or personally met such strong opposition to the use of evidence in this way as I have from you right now.

Secondly, drawing logical conclusions is done quite often in the Battledome, and when done within reason, is actually seen in quite a positive light. If I can prove that Character A and Character B possess _extremely_ similar, if not the same, traits (say, for example, diamond hard skin), and Character A is shown in the manga to have resisted a high-level flame-based attack, why _can't_ I use that as evidence to suggest that Character B can do the same? If I can prove that Tsunade possesses a similar level of strength to the Raikage (as a matter of fact, Tsunade's upper body strength feats even _trump_ the Raikage's!), why _can't_ I attribute some of the aftereffects of the Raikage slamming the ground with his strength to Tsunade doing the same thing? 

Like I said, this kind of thing is done _all the time_ in the Battledome. Kakuzu's _Katon: Zukokku_ and _Fuuton: Atsugai_ combine to create a powerful Katon-Fuuton combination attack; Jiraiya's _Katon: Dai Endan_ and Orochimaru's _Fuuton: Daitoppa_ is often seen as a viable combination attack whenever the two make a side-by-side appearance in a matchup. Bee managed to survive being electrocuted by Sasuke's _Chidori_, and thus many people accept that he would be able to do the same against similar attacks, such as Darui's _Raiton: Kangekiha _or Kakashi's _Rai Kage Bunshin_. The list goes on and on. 

I think you may be confusing my use of evidence here with "sole hype"-type arguments. An example of a "sole hype" argument would be: "Hiruzen Sarutobi knows every jutsu in Konoha, therefore he uses _Raikiri _to defeat Kakuzu/therefore he spams a thousand different jutsu at Kakuzu". Those kinds of arguments are most certainly frowned upon in the Battledome, but hopefully I don't need to explain how they are different from the logical conclusions - or "potential effects" - I have made in my essay.

I think Akitō .



> Second, we've seen ninja jump from place to place numerous times while under enemy fire without losing their balance. Though I'd be want to say they could in real life, in this manga is seems that the ninja are well trained in adapting to these situations and making split second reactions. Not to say they couldn't but it seems unlikely given the way they've been portrayed so far.


And at the same time, we have seen several instances where ninja have lost balance and/of fallen prey to "terrain effects". I even addressed your point in my essay:

*Spoiler*: __ 





> It is certainly not out-of-character for Tsunade to destroy the terrain in attempts to throw enemies off [][], and we know that - despite the role chakra may play in everyday ninja movement - terrain effects _can_ still cause ninja to lose their balance [24][25].








> Poor example. A far outclassed kid with a hot head.


The purpose of that link was to provide evidence that even a ninja trained in the arts of chakra-movement and manipulation (ie. sticking to the ground, sticking to the walls, using it to "burst" off the ground, etc.) could fall prey to a fissure. That, and it proves that Tsunade can create a fissure of adequate size for an opponent to fall into in the first place.


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## Suu (Jul 21, 2011)

*@Specter Von Baren:*

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Though she has shown the ability to make super hits, she does not have super resilience. Her strength has been shown to be due to chakra and not her actual muscles, you can tell this easily by looking at her arms. There is also no actual evidence for her being super resiliant in the manga, you can't fill this up with, "Tsunade may be". Show taijutsu not working on her.


If you argument is that Tsunade does not possess the relevant upper body strength feats to achieve any of the counter-taijutsu methods I detailed in my essay, I'd point you to this part of my essay, which you did not respond to (supposedly indicating you have no issue with it):

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Tsunade's most impressive strength feat, however, comes from her lifting of Gamabunta's several tonne tant[FONT=&amp]ō[/FONT] hundreds of metres into the air, and the speed and dexterity at which she manoeuvred it about [].





Once again, the logical conclusion is that _given_ the level of upper body strength she has shown us, somebody of inferior strength attempting to grapple with her would most likely to be overwhelmed. Quickly.

Something does not have to be overtly shown in the manga for it to be logically inferred. Hell, if the Battledome were restricted to only what we can see in the manga, we may as well not have a Battledome. The whole concept of a _hypothetical_ or _theoretical_ battle just goes out the window under such a premise.



> I see Tsunade moving with an attack and Kabuto hitting her with chakra scalpels while she's doing so, it isn't moving after being hit, she's moving because she was moving before her even used them. I'm seeing more and more examples of you GIVING examples that have nothing to do with the point you're making.


In the middle panel of the first scan, you can clearly see Tsunade shoulder-striking Kabuto. It even says "Sound Effects: Tsunade hitting Kabuto" as an editors note.

If you pay close attention to the speed lines of that panel, and the position she was in _before_ that, it becomes clear that Tsunade was in mid-air whilst being struck by chakra scalpels, after which she proceeded to land and quickly shoulder-strike Kabuto. Hence, a counter-attack.



> Wasn't this scene after she got hit by some other attack? I could have sworn Tsunade did something before this to make it so she could move again. Correct me if I'm wrong.


No, she did not "do something to make it so she could move again". Here's the chapter if you don't believe me.

Her subcostal muscle was injured. Tsunade herself states so - and given her medical expertise, I would not question that. It was not injured _as badly _as it could have been, due to her breasts, but it was bad enough to make her collapse _twice_, struggling to breathe and move. Given this movement impairment, plus all of the other ones stated in my example, it is remarkable that she was even able to stand up, let alone move and attack Kabuto from behind.



> She used her rebirth jutsu to regenerate, this is not her base mode. If you're making the case that her jutsu is very useful to repair herself from lethal attacks, okay, but it seems like you were trying to imply she could do this without the jutsu. Despite how long this post is, it seems like you didn't really take the time to go over these pages and are only using them to make it seem like you have a stronger argument.


Can you please show me where she regenerated _before_ hitting Orochimaru away? In fact, her regeneration does not begin until she activates the jutsu two pages later.



> Second verse, same as the first.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If you're saying that I repeated myself in the example - if I did, it was only to place further emphasis on the point I was trying to make. It is a common writing technique.

That said, the way you've separated the "verses" (note: I did not separate them in my essay) does not really convey a sense of redundancy, seeing as I introduced the concept of Tsunade falling to exhaustion rather than injury in my second "verse" - a point not present in my first "verse". 



> She had Katsuya focus her healing ability on everyone but I assume she also was using it on herself.


First of all, please show me a scan of Katsuyu _healing_ ninja after Deva Realm Pain's heightened _Shinra Tensei_. She did not use Tsunade's chakra to heal - she used it to _protect_. She used her "melding" ability (call it what you will) to envelop all Shinobi and villagers in Konoha before the blast. Obviously to do this, a full body-sized Katsuyu needs to be present.

Now I ask - please show me where the body-sized Katsuyu who protected Tsunade from the blast was. We got to see Tsunade right after the blast. She and her ANBU guard removed themselves from the rubble, but a body-sized Katsuyu (capable of protecting a ninja from _Shinra Tensei_) was nowhere to be seen near Tsunade nor her guard. 



> This is again a property of her jutsu, not her base resilience. The ability is not resiliance, it doesn't prevent damage, what it does is cause fast regeneration when damaged, it wouldn't say, keep her alive if someone cut her head off from her shoulders as those are still the same as a normal human's. It's like what Kabuto tried to do with Naruto's rassangan attack.


What is your proof that Tsunade used "her jutsu" (I am assuming you mean _Souzou Saisei_ here) to regenerate herself from the blast? It is very openly stated that she routed _all_ of the chakra that she would normally have used to regenerate _through_ Katsuyu to allow Katsuyu to protect the villagers.

It makes sense; otherwise Tsunade would not have appeared from the rubble injured and bleeding.

No - Tsunade took on the blast with no Katsuyu and without her regeneration technique. All evidence from the manga indicates so.



> Regeneration IS healing, the only difference is that it isn't healing from an outside source, our bodies do it all the time. It's the same thing she used for your resilience examples, it's not an extra feat, it's the same feat you were talking about before.


Tsunade herself - a world class medic in the Narutoverse - makes the distinction between healing and regeneration. She states that "It's [_Souzou Saisei_] not a healing ability, but regeneration". You can argue about their similarities all you like, with reference to the dictionary and real life science, but the fact of the matter is, there _is_ a distinction in the Narutoverse. 

The distinction might be hard to understand and the difference perhaps only very small, but the most notable difference would be the fact that _healing_ techniques alone are incapable of reforming organs in the Narutoverse. Tsunade's _regeneration_ is. 



> Not a counter attack.


See my point about the shoulder-strike above.



> Her chakra punches don't use allot of chakra, remember what is required for them is chakra control, very little actual chakra is required to use them.


Just because chakra control is _required_ to pull off the chakra enhanced strength feat does not mean a lot of chakra is not _consumed_. Kakashi states that a high level of control is required to _mould_ the chakra and concentrate it into one's fists, but that alone does not mean a great deal of chakra isn't expended in doing so.

This is in line with Chiyo's statement: "That monstrous strength, dodging, healing...they all demand considerable chakra..." (official Viz translation).

Similarly, just because medical ninjutsu requires incredibly sharp chakra control does not mean that medical ninjutsu itself does not consume a great deal of chakra. Once again, Chiyo's comment supports this assertion, as does Tsunade's: "_Tsk_...medical ninjutsu uses up too much chakra..." (official Viz translation).

What high chakra control does is _minimise_ the amount of chakra that goes to waste upon using ninjutsu and the like. That much was explained in my essay. A manoeuvre that _requires_ high chakra control does not necessarily _use_ minimal chakra.



> Also, are we talking about chakra and stamina as two different things or the same things? If they are the same, then I bring forth the problem that Tsuande loses all of her chakra when she uses her jutsu for regeneration and seeing how she didn't turn it off after the fight with Orochimaru, we could thereby assume, as you are want to do, that she in fact CAN'T turn it off once it's on and therefore once she uses it she has to end the fight before she loses all of her chakra.


It is explained in the manga that stamina is converted into chakra (I'll post a link in the next quote).

But I agree with this point. Tsunade's stamina will count for naught if she has to use _Souzou Saisei_ in a battle; she'll revert to her old form much quicker under the effects of this jutsu. I did not deny this in my essay - however, if she can outlast an opponent based on her resilience and stamina alone, my argument still stands.


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## Suu (Jul 21, 2011)

*@Specter Von Baren:*

*Spoiler*: __ 





> I don't remember chakra efficiency ever being brought up before, who are we comparing her efficiency to? What is the standard for normal chakra efficiency?


It's all in the links. Sasuke, a genius-level rookie, was shown to have great chakra control, but not perfect. Some of his chakra/stamina still went to waste. Naruto, a below-average rookie, was shown to have terrible chakra control, and a great deal of his chakra/stamina would go to waste.

I'd expect the "standard" to be somewhere in between. No doubt chakra control can be learned and improved upon, of course, but only to a certain point. Otherwise everybody would be running around with super strength and the like, and Kakashi wouldn't have bothered praising post-timeskip Sakura for her exceptional chakra control.

If you would like to read more about stamina-chakra conversion and chakra control, start reading here.



> And who has low stamina that we know of? Itachi, and Kakashi I can recall, this is a rather low denominator here. Unless we're talking fodder ninja then aside from these two, who are you claiming Tsunade has a huge advantage over?


Those two and many of the rookies. If you'd read the prelude to this essay, you'd know that many people in the Battledome still believe that some of the pre-timeskip rookies could defeat Tsunade.

Ninja like Kimimaro, Orochimaru, Hiruzen Sarutobi and some of the part II rookies and also come to mind, if we're talking questionable stamina (actually, Kimimao's stamina is supposedly high, but his sickness hampers the amount of time he can last in battle).

Hiruzen Sarutobi, Kimimaro, Kakashi and (restricted) Itachi are actually quite common opponents for Tsunade in the Battledome, believe it or not, and Tsunade being matched against rookies such as Lee, Neji, Kiba, Shikamaru, Chouji, SRA Sasuke, etc. is definitely not unheard of.



> We've never seen a war of attrition used on someone before in this manga, there's no place for us to compare except for Shikamaru giving up on his match in the exams.


Tsunade vs. Kabuto is a good example of "tiring an opponent out and then using soldier pills to gain the advantage over them". Orochimaru and Kabuto are pretty clever tacticians (it is implied that Orochimaru orchestrated the whole thing, and I certainly do not doubt his combat experience), so no doubt this is seen as quite a viable tactic in the Narutoverse. 

Of course wars of attrition aren't _common_ in the Battledome, but they're certainly not unheard of. And in the past I have seen many people argue one ninja's superiority in battle over another largely due to their superior stamina, and such arguments were not met with disapproval.



> The feats you gave of her massive chakra have been times when she's called on her stored supply which she only uses for her regeneration ability which means it's not part of her actual supply of chakra but an E-tank that can be used for only one ability in her arsenal.


No, the feats I pointed out did _not_ involve her using any of the stored chakra in her forehead seal. I made a point of doing that.

I did mention she used _Souzou Saisei_ in the first example, but I placed most of the emphasis on the other things she did during the Sannin Battle. In the second example, I did not even mention the fact that she used her forehead seal; even before using it to protect everybody from Pain's heightened _Shinra Tensei_, she was healing hundreds of villagers and supplying Katsuyu with chakra for its protection ability.



> Yet we've not seen any actual example of her fighting ability to be anywhere near on par with her fellow Sannin. You can't tell us to not be fooled when you yourself have seen just as much as we have.


That paragraph was written in preemptive retaliation to the masses of people who I knew would argue "So what if Tsunade has completed a lot of missions, all she does is heal". 

Well, no, her name did not inspire _fear_ in the hearts of enemies far and wide simply because she sat on the sidelines and healed all day. That was the point I was trying to make - I was not trying to use this as proof that she could fight on the level of Orochimaru or Jiraiya.



> She was known for the strength of her punches yes. Her combat skills have been SAID to be important but they have not been shown to be that great in her showings, could she be great? Yes. Has she actually shown this? No. You can't use off panel evidence for these discussions.


See above. Once again, this paragraph was merely to prove that Tsunade did _not_ spend her entire time as a ninja healing. She was a healing _and_ combat ninja. I am not using this to say that she was a combat ninja _of a certain level_; I am merely saying that she participated in combat. Fullstop.



> This comment is kind of misleading in my opinion. Inteligence does not equate to all fields, we've seen Tsunade to have vast knowledge of medicine but that doesn't translate to combat intelligence. Proof is in Naruto, Naruto can be a genius in a fight but outside of it he's shown himself to for the most part be an idiot. Just because someone is a rocket scientist doesn't mean they could also tell you how to win a war.


I agree, but at the very least we know that Tsunade is not _un_intelligent. She would have at least enough intelligence to know how to apply her combat experience to an actual battle. I also provided evidence to suggest that Tsunade, as Hokage, puts her combat intelligence to use on a regular basis when formulating teams and strategies for assignments. 



> Traits of Sakura do not equal traits of Tsunade. What would you say if I said everything that Jiraiya could do so could Naruto? That just by merits of Jiraiya being his teacher that Naruto also can use swamp of the underworld and the hair needle jutsu's even though he's never once displayed these abilities?


Firstly, I openly admitted that this was an assumption on my part. Secondly, I did provide some evidence to suggest why Tsunade and Sakura may have similar ways of evading attacks - their similar fighting styles and intellectual attributes, and of course the fact that Tsunade herself trained Sakura in evasion.

I am not granting Tsunade ninjutsu she has never shown the prerequisites for or anything extreme like that. Your Jiraiya-Naruto example is a fair bit too extreme to use as a relevant analogy here.



> As have many ninja, this isn't a special ability, we've seen all the ninja in this manga show amazing reflexes.


Nor am I trying to pass it off as an amazing speed or reflexive feat. You would be surprised how many people out there believe Tsunade incapable of dodging an attack as simple as a kunai throw, or believe she has _never_ shown a dodge in the manga.



> Indeed. Taijutsu skill is also derived from fighting styles and training in these styles, Tsunade has shown no such training. She has shown the rudimentary skills of blocking and punching but in cases like Lee, who specializes in the art of taijutsu, she isn't the same thing.


I noted some examples of Tsunade's taijutsu skill in my essay. You did not respond to it, which supposedly indicates that you have no issue with it.

Sure, she may not be as artful as Lee or Gai, but this whole essay is about why she does not share the same _style_ of taijutsu as they. It does not necessarily make her any less skilled in taijutsu as a discipline (although I do believe she _is_ less skilled than at least Gai). 



> ..... No. He just grabbed Sasuke before he stabbed him. Style does not equate speed.


I have no idea what you mean by saying "style does not equate speed"; at least, I do not know why such a comment would be relevant to the example I raised. I simply mentioned that there did not seem to be a huge disparity in speed or lethality between Danzou and Sasuke, and yet Danzou managed to grab Sasuke's neck before Sasuke could attack him (hell, Sasuke was using his Sharingan at the time whilst Danzou was not, and Sasuke even had the range advantage with his sword).

If Danzou had been holding a kunai in that hand at the time, I don't think things would have gone well for Sasuke. We can only speculate, though - perhaps Sasuke would not have charged so boldly at Danzou if he'd seen that Danzou was armed.



> Cutting to the chase here. You gave allot of examples of OTHER people and then said at the end that Tsunade is just like them. Give ACTUAL examples of Tsunade doing what you say she can do.


This has been addressed at the beginning of my response, and by Akito. I hope you can recognise the logic behind such actions, and the fact that they are _not_ frowned upon in the Battledome when done in moderation.



> Over all I see a huge post with lot's of flowy words and uses of page examples to try and make your arguments seem better. You lead the reader on with examples of other events in the manga and then come back around to say, "Now can't you see how TSUNADE is like that?" I'd much prefer a brass tacks approach to this, one that cuts to the point instead of hiding behind so much prose.


This is simply the style I prefer to write in. Plus, it's a persuasive essay for goodness sake - did you _really_ expect there to be absolutely zero rhetoric in it?

Thanks for taking the time to read it, though, and for the response.


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## Sans (Jul 21, 2011)

On the subject of "wars of attrition", there are several that can be listed. _Izanagi_ versus _Susano'o_, Sasuke versus Deidara and Sasuke versus Itachi all come to mind. Apart from the first example, no one was explicitly attempting to grind their opponent down, but they've still occurred.


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## Suu (Jul 21, 2011)

elephant_roar said:


> Speed and strength are relative. There have been plenty of situations wherein willpower, anger, hatred, and other strong emotions have lead to direct increases in resilience, recovery or power. To break or lift a boulder isn't an impressive task, in my eyes, because any character is capable of accomplishing that task if the plot deems it necessary. Yet, not every character, is capable of using Almighty Push, Rasengan, Chidori whathaveyou. Tsunade doesn't have anything that's unique. I guess you can make a case for Genesis Rebirth, but you don't even need such a jutsu when you have the "will of fire" on your side.


Ho. That's an interesting spin on things. I hadn't really thought of it that way before.

I suppose in the Battledome where plot is "turned off" so to speak, characters who have never shown incredible strength, speed or resilience feats will not be granted them. Hence, Tsunade's traits can be seen as "unique" (or "more unique", rather). Regardless of whether or not Tsunade's strength and resilience feats are motivated by the plot, the fact of the matter is that she's shown them, so that's what we have to accept and work with.

I can understand where you're coming from, though, at least when it comes to your point on resilience.



AKmyWaffle said:


> Wasn't it just a few panels back? Like 10 seconds prior to removing the rod out of him?


The concept of time in the manga is almost completely subjective, but he did go through multiple flashbacks and conversations after pulling the rod out of his arm. 

He first had a flashback about what the captured Amegakure ninja told him about Pain, and then thought about whether or not Pain was Yahiko. Then he had a flashback about his conversation with child Nagato. Then he had a flashback about his encounter with the Fuuma clan ninja. Then he had a conversation with Ma and Pa. Then he had a flashback about what the Great Sage Toad told him as a youth. Then he had another conversation with Ma and Pa.

Who knows - perhaps the flashbacks only lasted a matter of seconds? Either way, I'm quite sure more than ten seconds elapsed.

Compare that to Tsunade's healing, which can close penetrative wounds almost instantly. I am no longer doubting Sage Mode's healing capabilities, but Tsunade's healing strikes me as more efficient and probably capable of healing more severe wounds that Sage Mode ever could alone.



> Well just like Tsunade was rusty against Kabuto, don't you think their teamwork would be rusty after all those decades?
> 
> Orochimaru and Jiraiya had stayed active and improved on their skills while Tsunade was taking time off, that's why I think there would be a relatively big gap in their skills.  Tsunade hasn't had a single team fight in decades now...
> 
> And how long ago was it that they were a team?


Interesting. I think you are correct to some extent, but once again, rustiness alone is probably not going to cause all of their years of teamwork experience to suddenly fly out the window. 



> Again I highly doubt it, even though she is the Hokage her intelligence network most likely pales in comparison to both Orochimaru and Jiraiya. Remember that Jiraiya basically was Konoha's intelligence network and that Tsunade's day to day duties involved assigning genin to hunt down cats and other boring paperwork.


Jiraiya reports almost everything he knows to Tsunade anyway. Since when did Orochimaru have an intelligence network?

Also, sure Tsunade may assign low-level missions to Genin, but you cannot ignore the fact that she also assigns high-level missions to the village's Jounin. Furthermore, almost all the village's ANBU (except 'Root') report to her on those top secret infiltration/assassination/intelligence gathering/etc. missions. Even the torture squad reports their findings directly to her.



> How so? Orochimaru had been experimenting on producing a Ridoku while Jiraiya is Konoha's spy master.


How does Orochimaru's experimentation give him a wider array of knowledge on noteworthy ninja than the Hokage of Konoha? And yes, Jiraiya is _Konoha's_ spy master, who reports everything he knows to the Hokage. His knowledge can almost be seen as a _subset_ of Tsunade's knowledge.



Komnenos said:


> On the subject of "wars of attrition", there are several that can be listed. _Izanagi_ versus _Susano'o_, Sasuke versus Deidara and Sasuke versus Itachi all come to mind. Apart from the first example, no one was explicitly attempting to grind their opponent down, but they've still occurred.


Great finds! Thanks.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jul 21, 2011)

Aster The Megalomaniac said:


> There's a reason why you're no longer a battledome mod.



I really don't think you have the right to waltz right into a thread that someone spent a great deal of time and effort on, and say something so damn _disrespectful_. If you're going to make a post, especially in a thread such as this, make one that actually _contributes_ and is useful. The post itself doesn't even make sense - what exactly are you referring to when you make this statement? You're even speaking as if you _know_ why he's no longer a Moderator in the Battledome, and the way you say it implies that he isn't one because he did a bad job of it. I have been posting in the Battledome for a long time, and he has done a splendid job, and I don't believe I've ever seen you in there either. Before you make comments such as this, I suggest you actually try and make it correct. 

________________________

Back on topic, I think this thread is very well done. It is easy on the eyes, and very well constructed. I may not agree with it all, but there is clearly has been a lot of effort put into this, and I respect that. I'd try and highlight out the bits which I disagree with, but it appears that the various posters before me have already done so, and you have replied to them . . . in great detail. Well, more reading for me, I suppose. Good job, Suu!


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## Sans (Jul 21, 2011)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I really don't think you have the right to waltz right into a thread that someone spent a great deal of time and effort on, and say something so damn _disrespectful_. If you're going to make a post, especially in a thread such as this, make one that actually _contributes_ and is useful. The post itself doesn't even make sense - what exactly are you referring to when you make this statement? You're even speaking as if you _know_ why he's no longer a Moderator in the Battledome, and the way you say it implies that he isn't one because he did a bad job of it. I have been posting in the Battledome for a long time, and he has done a splendid job, and I don't believe I've ever seen you in there either. Before you make comments such as this, I suggest you actually try and make it correct.



"You must spread Reputation before giving it to Atlantic Storm again."


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 21, 2011)

3/4ths of these things were against a Pre Kabuto 

Good read I guess for what its worth (what I read).


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 21, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> 3/4ths of these things were against a Pre Kabuto
> 
> Good read I guess for what its worth (what I read).



With hemophobia that Kabuto knew specifically to use against her, but who's counting?


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 21, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> With hemophobia that Kabuto knew specifically to use against her, but who's counting?



with hemophobia that she knew she had but went against Orochimaru and Kabuto anyway which speaks much about her being a hot head and not thinking things through which is a big "No-No" for any Shinobi in the position of Hokage or even being a Hokage-Candidate.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jul 21, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> with hemophobia that she knew she had but went against Orochimaru and Kabuto anyway which speaks much about her being a hot head and not thinking things through which is a big "No-No" for any Shinobi in the position of Hokage or even being a Hokage-Candidate.



It's called the "Will of Fire." The philosophy that this entire manga revolves around.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jul 21, 2011)

Namikaze Minato said:


> with hemophobia that she knew she had but went against Orochimaru and Kabuto anyway which speaks much about her being a hot head and not thinking things through which is a big "No-No" for any Shinobi in the position of Hokage or even being a Hokage-Candidate.



To be fair, any other Shinobi, would most likely have acted the same. Orochimaru was basically laughing in the face of her dead loved ones and dancing upon their graves. At this point, she didn't really care about the title of Hokage and didn't even want to become it. Furthermore, what else was she supposed to do? There was no other way to approach the situation, the only other fighter who can hold a candle to Kabuto or Orochimaru was Jiraiya . . . who she drugged earlier, so he wouldn't mess up her plans to kill Orochimaru. Her plan was, for the most part, flawless and well thought out. She pretended she was going to help Orochimaru, and to make the plan oh so more convincing she knocked out her assistant and drugged the only other fighter who could help. She even made it look like she was actually healing Orochimaru. If Kabuto hadn't shown up, Orochimaru would have died. We should all bear in mind that Kabuto isn't the average medical ninja either, and it is very unlikely a 'normal' medical shinobi would be able to see through Tsunade's trick. That plan, in my opinion, was a plan worthy of a Hokage.


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## Leon (Jul 21, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> 3/4ths of these things were against a Pre Kabuto
> 
> Good read I guess for what its worth (what I read).



Impying Pre Kabuto isn't a powerful nin who easily disposed of anbu and outwitted the famous genius Kakashi, who is noted to be especially intelligent. Tsunade did quite well after not participating in any forms of shinobi combat for years.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 21, 2011)

Suu said:


> The concept of time in the manga is almost completely subjective, but he did go through multiple flashbacks and conversations after pulling the rod out of his arm.
> 
> He first had a flashback about what the captured Amegakure ninja told him about Pain, and then thought about whether or not Pain was Yahiko. Then he had a flashback about his conversation with child Nagato. Then he had a flashback about his encounter with the Fuuma clan ninja. Then he had a conversation with Ma and Pa. Then he had a flashback about what the Great Sage Toad told him as a youth. Then he had another conversation with Ma and Pa.
> 
> Who knows - perhaps the flashbacks only lasted a matter of seconds? Either way, I'm quite sure more than ten seconds elapsed.



Link removed
Yeah but Tsunade's healing can't repair clothing like sage mode does now can it?

Honestly I don't think Kishimoto meant for it to be examined in such detail...



> Compare that to Tsunade's healing, which can close penetrative wounds almost instantly. I am no longer doubting Sage Mode's healing capabilities, but Tsunade's healing strikes me as more efficient and probably capable of healing more severe wounds that Sage Mode ever could alone.



I'd imagine that Jiraiya's wound was deeper and more difficult to heal. Plus Tsunade's healing requires that the person being healed slows down while Sage mode allows Jiriaya to keep going. 



> Interesting. I think you are correct to some extent, but once again, rustiness alone is probably not going to cause all of their years of teamwork experience to suddenly fly out the window.



Well rustiness and a huge change in Jiraiya's and Oro's fighting style probably would throw most of their experience out of the window. 



> Jiraiya reports almost everything he knows to Tsunade anyway. Since when did Orochimaru have an intelligence network?



When was it stated that Jiraiya reports almost everything to Tsunade? And I say that Oro has an intelligence network because he had multiple bases located all over the known world. Plus Kabuto was Oro's right hand man and Kabuto hinted at having a vast intelligence network. 



> Also, sure Tsunade may assign low-level missions to Genin, but you cannot ignore the fact that she also assigns high-level missions to the village's Jounin. Furthermore, almost all the village's ANBU (except 'Root') report to her on those top secret infiltration/assassination/intelligence gathering/etc. missions. Even the torture squad reports their findings directly to her.



Even with all of them giving her reports I doubt that Tsunade's network matched Jiraiya's or Oro's. Tsunade and Konoha seem to be out of the loop on the happenings of the world. They didn't even notice a civil war right on the border of the fire nation. 



> How does Orochimaru's experimentation give him a wider array of knowledge on noteworthy ninja than the Hokage of Konoha? And yes, Jiraiya is _Konoha's_ spy master, who reports everything he knows to the Hokage. His knowledge can almost be seen as a _subset_ of Tsunade's knowledge.



I think the key word here is noteworthy. There are very few noteworthy people in Konoha.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jul 22, 2011)

In the heat of battle, I would say this supposed 'Sage Mode healing' would be more effective than Shōsen jutsu. It is most likely faster, and doesn't require the user to stop or build up concentration, meaning it can be used in battle-like scenarios. However, even in the hands of the more capable healers, Shōsen jutsu requires concentration, steady chakra control and it takes a lot out of the user. In the two instances we have seen it in use during battle, neither opponents were particularly aggressive towards the healer (Kabuto wasn't aiming to kill and Sasori was in shock), most shinobi wouldn't have the luxury of being allowed time to heal.

However, that's why healers usually have support and are required to be adept in dodging attacks. They are generally expected to hang at the back, dodging techniques and healing people. It's more of a group-based technique, as it can be used to heal others and can heal very deep wounds. Sage Mode healing, however, can only be used to heal themselves. 

I am assuming I've read all of this correctly and you're debating whether or not Sage Mode is better for in-battle healing or Shōsen jutsu is. Forgive me if I am wrong, though, as I'm very tired. : p


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 22, 2011)

Leon said:


> Impying Pre Kabuto isn't a powerful nin who easily disposed of anbu and outwitted the famous genius Kakashi, who is noted to be especially intelligent. Tsunade did quite well after not participating in any forms of shinobi combat for years.



The dude who also got rasenganed in the face by a pre skip Naruto.

And anbu arent strong my friend. The sound 4 disposed of the anbu guarding the Hokage while not even using the CS.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jul 22, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> The dude who also got rasenganed in the face by a pre skip Naruto.



And survived, and he was blasted in the gut. He also prepared something in case something like that happened and was able to nearly kill Naruto to the point where the Kyūbi felt himself fading away.

Also, if you consider the circumstances, it wasn't really that bad. Kabuto wasn't even taking Naruto _seriously_, if he had fought him with the intent to actually kill, do you really think Naruto would have survived? This is the same person who nearly able to go toe to toe with Tsunade and basically incapacitate Shizune for the rest of the battle. If he had been serious, he wouldn't have used a kunai to try to kill him and subsequently have Naruto jam his fist into it. Kabuto was trying to conserve chakra by using the kunai, like how Danzō was when he kicked Karin aside.



> And anbu arent strong my friend. The sound 4 disposed of the anbu guarding the Hokage while not even using the CS.



You're implying the Sound 4 actually bested them in combat. The ANBU used Shunshin to rush in to save the Hokage, but were promptly stopped by a high level barrier. They were in the middle of a Shunshin, so they had no way to change their directions. It's like driving a car really quickly and then you see a brick wall, you try to turn but you're going too fast and you crash into it. Only, in this case, the wall was a burning barrier.


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## Leon (Jul 23, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> The dude who also got rasenganed in the face by a pre skip Naruto.
> 
> And anbu arent strong my friend. The sound 4 disposed of the anbu guarding the Hokage while not even using the CS.



Pure Plot induced stupidity. Kabuto was toying with Naruto, he smacked him around, not even bothering to cut his throat with Chakra no Mesu, which would have been instantly fatal.

When Naruto grabbed his hand he stood there while Naruto made a bunshin + Rasengan, and waited until the last moment to retaliate. Considering what we had seen from him prior to that, it was one of the, if not the most biggest issues of pis in the manga, all so Naruto could compete with character far above his calibur.


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## Suu (Jul 23, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Chakra created with spiritual energy if he isn't calm he wont control his chakra well
> Yeah but Tsunade's healing can't repair clothing like sage mode does now can it?
> 
> Honestly I don't think Kishimoto meant for it to be examined in such detail...


Haha, I hadn't noticed that. I guess we can chalk that down to inconsistency and/or lazy artwork. 



> I'd imagine that Jiraiya's wound was deeper and more difficult to heal. Plus Tsunade's healing requires that the person being healed slows down while Sage mode allows Jiriaya to keep going.


A mini-Katsuyu latched onto Jiraiya's arm providing remote healing from Tsunade would probably not slow Jiraiya down one bit. He's got the strength to carry something as [relatively] weightless as a mini-Katsuyu without it significantly hindering his movement speed, even in base mode.



> Well rustiness and a huge change in Jiraiya's and Oro's fighting style probably would throw most of their experience out of the window.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. But kudos to you for bringing up some good points; I admit that their teamwork probably isn't going to be a "polished" as I'd previously believed. 



> When was it stated that Jiraiya reports almost everything to Tsunade?


Well, even you labelled Jiraiya _Konoha's_ spymaster. I honestly don't see Jiraiya reporting his findings to anybody else other than Tsunade (and snippets to Kakashi, of course). He has the strongest ties to Tsunade, after all, and played a large part in propagating her elevation to Hokage. 

I mean, no doubt there would be _some_ information Jiraiya would keep to himself and/or deem unnecessary to reveal to Tsunade (which is why I said "almost" everything), but regarding the big issues like Akatsuki and whatnot, Tsunade would hear everything.



> And I say that Oro has an intelligence network because he had multiple bases located all over the known world. Plus Kabuto was Oro's right hand man and Kabuto hinted at having a vast intelligence network.


Can you please find where either of these things have been stated (or even hinted at) in the manga? I'm not questioning whether or not you're being genuine here; I simply cannot find evidence of this in the manga.



> Even with all of them giving her reports I doubt that Tsunade's network matched Jiraiya's or Oro's. Tsunade and Konoha seem to be out of the loop on the happenings of the world. They didn't even notice a civil war right on the border of the fire nation.


First of all, Amegakure is somewhat of an exception. It has been stated that the village maintains an extremely tight surveillance of anybody entering or leaving. It has also been stated that the country as a whole does not share its internal affairs with outsiders, and is very secretive, which high security even when it hosts "public" events like the Chuunin Exams. So, from the outset, the village and country as a whole strikes me as a very difficult place to go "snooping around", both physically and on the political forum.

Secondly, whilst Tsunade may not have been aware of the civil war going on inside the village, she was more than aware of the internal strife going on in Amegakure. From what I recall, even _child_ Yahiko was aware of the fact that his country had been torn apart by countless civil wars, and given that at the time Tsunade had been in the country on wartime missions, I believe she would have at least been privy to that much. 

Lastly, Jiraiya - on behalf of Konoha - infiltrated the village and sent toads back reporting his findings there. So, even if Tsunade did not initially know what was going on in Amegakure, she did eventually find out by merit of her position of Hokage.



> I think the key word here is noteworthy. There are very few noteworthy people in Konoha.


I'm not talking about ninja _in_ Konoha, but rather, ninja who Konoha _sees as noteworthy_. That is, bingo book people, wanted criminals, Akatsuki, the other Kage, legendary/strong ninja from the other villages, etc. 

For example, in the Battledome, if manga knowledge were stipulated (which is more or less default most of the time), one would have a much harder time arguing that Jiraiya or even Orochimaru would possess knowledge of Hidan's ritual (Orochimaru had already left Akatsuki by the time Hidan joined, so his personal "bingo book" profiles on the Akatsuki might have been outdated) than they would Tsunade. Being Hokage, all ninja who have encountered Hidan would have reported their findings directly to her (particularly since she was the one who formed the _Nijuu Shotai_ in the first place). This is just one of many examples I can think of from the top of my head.


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## Lelouch Vi Britannia (Oct 26, 2011)

excellent essay, really interesting. This convinced me of Tsuande's power/prowess


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 26, 2011)

Why. Why did you do this


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## LegendaryBeauty (Oct 27, 2011)

Is there a problem?


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## soumyee29 (Nov 4, 2011)

That was totally epic! I loved it! It's always so irritating how people underestimate Tsunade and call her the worst Hokage ever, simply because they think she's weak. Never mind the fact that being a Hokage (being a good leader, being a good strategist, being a diplomat, being intelligent, being inspiring) and being a good combatant are not one and the same thing; but even supposing that Tsunade is weak is laughable. Your essay goes on to show just how amazing she is. I read it from beginning to end, it's epically awesome, very shrewd and acute.

However, you're forgot a very crucial point in Factor 2, example 1D: Others in the vicinity replicated the feat of surviving Shinra Tensei solely because Tsunade was channeling her chakra to them through Katsuyu. In effect, the total impact that Tsunade survived is the Shinra Tensei's force multiplied by the number of other survivors. You do mention it later when discussing her stamina, but this feat was much more than healing thousands of villagers (which is mind-bogglingly impressive in itself, mind you). This feat is healing thousands of villagers against the Shinra Tensei, which is an attack so devastating that it leveled the entire village. That is beyond the realm of impressive.

Overall, I'm extremely glad to know that not all people blindly hate Tsunade. She rocks! ^_^


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