# Kakashi and Gai are not "Kage level"



## SpeedBlitz (Dec 31, 2011)

They are exemplary Jonin each possessing a Kage level technique _with Kage level drawbacks._

Deidara's C4 doesn't automatically spell GG for him if it doesn't connect the first time. Kisame's Water Dome doesn't end Kisame if it doesn't work. Hashirama's Jukai Kotan is Kage level in its effects AND Hashirama is able to use that as his "basic attack"

But this is not to diss Kakashi or Gai in any way. They are awesome characters that set the gold standard for what it means to be a Jonin that Kishi gave double-edged ace cards to so that they could hang with Akatsuki without totally murdering them.

Just thought I should clear up this common misconception.


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## Jad (Dec 31, 2011)

Please lock thread


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## raizen28 (Dec 31, 2011)

this thread .


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## Hazuki (Dec 31, 2011)

Jad said:


> Please lock thread



the 2 elder didn't want kakashi as  hokage 
they choose him because he was *the last resort *

they said " we have no choice " 

they didn't even want him as hokage , kakashi almost become hokage , because they have no choice , no one in konoha was a true hokage level 

so the best of the elite juunin was the choice by default

the 2 elder didn't said that when they choose tsunade or danzo , because both of them are true hokage level 

so before you try to locked this thread, at least try to know more about the scan page you are posting


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## SpeedBlitz (Dec 31, 2011)

Jad said:


> Please lock thread


I obviously wasn't referring to "Kage level" as the political BS position. Hence the quotes around "Kage level"

You know exactly what I'm talking about; I'm talking about that line of certainty that's crossed by what is most commonly known as "S-class". Or Akatsuki level, or "Kage" level or whatever you want to call it.

Kakashi and Gai are clearly portrayed by Kishi as the beacon of the Jonin class and they play their roles in the manga beautifully. I highly doubt either will reach 100% Kage level status by the end of the manga. And they shouldn't either; that's not their job in the manga. That's Kakashi's students' job.


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## timmysblood (Dec 31, 2011)

At this point, this is not even worth arguing against.




>>* OP*


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## Jad (Dec 31, 2011)

SpeedBlitz said:


> I obviously wasn't referring to "Kage level" as the *political BS position. Hence the quotes around "Kage level"*



Wrong, the Hokage isn't just a political position, it is also the title held for the strongest person in the village.

Plus they also considered his name before that scan, but Danzou took it because his been begging for it for a while.

This is a crazy-stupid thread. Kishi has actually been trying to show Kakashi as a kage level ninja without giving him the title. Being praised by the likes of Madara, and known by Pain as a threat to his plans. He even fought against Kakuzu who he was confident enough in defeating with Kamui who stood side-by-side in fight against Hashirama (however that went).


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## Joker J (Dec 31, 2011)

Why Kakashi and Gai aren't Kage level again? is that even possible?


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## Hazuki (Dec 31, 2011)

timmysblood said:


> At this point, this is not even worth arguing against.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




for me a true kage level is not someone who can use just one kage level jutsu  especially if that jutsu will take him down in the process 

also kisame would have never won if he had his samaheda 

manga said that myst ninja sword are no where from their true power without their sword , same for zabuza or kisame ..


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## Haruhifan21 (Dec 31, 2011)

As a counter or addition to posts in this thread (and others), my opinion about Kakashi being "Kage level" because he was almost appointed hokage:

- IF Kakashi did become hokage, he would automatically be "Kage level", because Kakashi would be a Kage, and therefore "Kage level", regardless of his strength level in comparison to previous or current Kages.

- IF Kakashi did NOT become hokage, AND he is weaker or stronger than all the previous and current Kages by more than a small and reasonable amount, he would NOT be "Kage level".

- IF Kakashi is within the range of power of the previous and current Kages, or slightly outside that range by a small and reasonable amount, he would be "Kage level".

I believe Kakashi is Kage level, because I think the third option holds.

In Gai's case, an issue comes up in the definition of a person's power. Gai is very powerful in Gates, but probably not so in base. In the temporary times Gai is in Gates, he is Kage level. In those other times, Gai is not Kage level (for now, let's say this is so (but this also might not be the case) for the sake of argument). So to the literal question: "Is Gai Kage level?" I would say, depends on how you interpret it.

In my interpretation, Gai is Kage level, because being Kage level in the more important times (battles with strong guys) can be given more weight than not being Kage level in the less important times (not fighting or fighting weaker guys).

So in my opinion, Kakashi and Gai are Kage level.


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## raizen28 (Dec 31, 2011)

Joker J said:


> Why Kakashi and Gai aren't Kage level again? is that even possible?


I agree with joker J. how arent they kage-level


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## SpeedBlitz (Dec 31, 2011)

Jad said:


> Wrong, the Hokage isn't just a political position, it is also the title held for the strongest person in the village.



I know that. I was just using the words "Kage level" to denote that certain level of S-class others have comfortably reached but Kakashi and Gai have to effectively ruin their bodies to fight them.

Sure Kakashi potentially could oneshot Deidara with Kamui but he NEVER starts this way for a reason because it's basically the end of the fight if Kamui doesn't connect. What if he hits a bunshin or something?



Hazuki said:


> for me a true kage level is not someone who can use just one kage level jutsu  especially if that jutsu will take him down in the process



Essentially the main gist of what I am saying. Kakashi without MS and Gai without Gates are fine shinobi that exemplify what it means to be the best of their class. 

It's just that certifiably S-ranked characters like Kisame and Deidara don't need to wreck themselves to use the techs that make them so.


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## raizen28 (Dec 31, 2011)

Kakashi's Extreme skill and Versatiliy as well as his intelligence makes him a match for seemingly any opponent. He was also the only one in the Pain Invasion before Naruto came to give him a fair fight and almost defeat deva via raikiri. Im not saying he's stronger than pain, but his skill,versatility, and intelligence made him do better in that fight then the countless other shinobi[not counting naruto] during that invasion. Anyboy else would've been killed like fodder. since Kakashi has skill over brute power, It makes him a Unique Kage-level shinobi.


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## SpeedBlitz (Dec 31, 2011)

raizen28 said:


> I agree with joker J. how arent they kage-level



Because the techniques they need to use to compete with Kage tiers have Kage level drawbacks.

Like the mothafukkin first sentence in the OP says.


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## raizen28 (Dec 31, 2011)

SpeedBlitz said:


> Because the techniques they need to use to compete with Kage tiers have Kage level drawbacks.
> 
> Like the mothafukkin first sentence in the OP says.


kakashi's main drawback is kamui. its MS jutsu unique to him. other that his raikiri doesnt drain like it use too. Lots of Shinobi have techniques that can drain them if they use chakra.


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## timmysblood (Dec 31, 2011)

I don't get this argument that because the 7nth gate hurts Gai (not even the 6th gate, just the 7nth ) that Gai is not kage. Gates is just part of his jutsu , part of his innate power which he's used in every major fight he's been in.


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## raizen28 (Dec 31, 2011)

SpeedBlitz said:


> Because the techniques they need to use to compete with Kage tiers have Kage level drawbacks.
> 
> Like the mothafukkin first sentence in the OP says.


And Im sure Kakashi could compete with Tsunade in combat


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## raizen28 (Dec 31, 2011)

SpeedBlitz said:


> Because the techniques they need to use to compete with Kage tiers have Kage level drawbacks.
> 
> Like the mothafukkin first sentence in the OP says.


I guess Hiruzen wasnt Kage-level because he had a jutsu that drawback is taking his own life then


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## King Scoop (Dec 31, 2011)

Kakashi was the pinnacle of Jounin back in Part I. Anyone stronger than him was considered Kage level. But Kakashi decided to train harder during the timeskip, that's what bumped him up a level. He's now low Kage level. He might not be one of the strongest but he's up there with the elites.

Gai was always considered Kakashi's equal. And it was said he reached Kage level while using Gates. Since he can now use it pretty much an entire fight that puts him up there too.


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## SpeedBlitz (Dec 31, 2011)

raizen28 said:


> kakashi's main drawback is kamui.



Wait. Wat?

I'm referring to how Kamui and Gates render Kakashi and Gai pretty much unable to fight after one use because of life force depletion, blindness, muscle tearing, and Kamui takes like an entire third of Kakashi's chakra or something after one use which even Nagato's CT doesn't do.

It's just not a well-rounded enough way of fighting to be Kage level without a doubt in my opinion.

Going by feats Tsunade and Hiruzen get raped by the Jonin and aren't Kage level imo. They are just political Hokage that the village had no better choice for. By feats anyway.


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## Young Grasshopper (Dec 31, 2011)

"Kage Level" is comprised of much more than just your proficiency with jutsu or large AoE attacks. Kakashi has rightfully earned himself a spot amongst the Kage not only because of his versatility in jutsu, but also his battle prowess. The guy is basically a genius when it comes to battle and this has been mentioned numerous times throughout the series. Bringing Kakashi down in a fight won't be an easy task for *anyone* because the man is so well versed in basically every form of ninja combat. 

As for Gai, all he needs to do is turn on the gates. Raikage uses his raiton armor, Gai uses gates.


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## TheFlash (Dec 31, 2011)

timmysblood said:


> I don't get this argument that because the 7nth gate hurts Gai (not even the 6th gate, just the 7nth ) that Gai is not kage. Gates is just part of his jutsu , part of his innate power which he's used in every major fight he's been in.



Yeah, Gai is kage-level in just the sixth gate, and all that does is make him really, really tired for a little while. Kakashi, meanwhile, is kage-level in that he almost _was_ a kage, so........


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## raizen28 (Dec 31, 2011)

SpeedBlitz said:


> Wait. Wat?
> 
> I'm referring to how Kamui and Gates render Kakashi and Gai pretty much unable to fight after one use because of life force depletion, blindness, muscle tearing, and Kamui takes like an entire third of Kakashi's chakra or something after one use which even Nagato's CT doesn't do.
> 
> ...


because of the one jutsu that he only uses when he absolutely needs too.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Dec 31, 2011)

SpeedBlitz said:


> I obviously wasn't referring to "Kage level" as the political BS position.



Kage is a political office. 

Given that Kakashi was appointed Hokage, that by definition makes him Kage level. Perhaps you could try and argue that he would be the weakest Kage, but he would still be Kage level by default. Gai is Kakashi's rival, and Kishi has portrayed them as equals. Thus, Gai is Kage level as well.


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## 24 Hours (Dec 31, 2011)

Kakashi and Gai >>>> Tsunade


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## SpeedBlitz (Dec 31, 2011)

24 Hours said:


> Kakashi and Gai >>>> Tsunade


Which is why Tsunade sucks dick and is not Hokage level despite being a Hokage.

Harsh but feats wise it's the truth so far.

Kakashi is intelligent for sure but I personally can't give as much points for just that. It won't really save him when he's drowning in a water dome or CT'd by Rinnegan


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## Young Grasshopper (Dec 31, 2011)

Lol at Tsunade not being Kage level.


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## SaVaGe609 (Dec 31, 2011)

Kage isn't a level, it's a title.


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## Tengu (Dec 31, 2011)

Gai is currently fighting a bijuu, Kakashi is fighting 4 V2 jins, you were saying?


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## The Jeffrey (Dec 31, 2011)

SaVaGe609 said:


> Kage isn't a level, it's a title.



Pretty much this right here.


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## SpeedBlitz (Dec 31, 2011)

Tengu said:


> Gai is currently fighting a bijuu, Kakashi is fighting 4 V2 jins, you were saying?


They're holding them back. Which is what I would expect from the two best Jonin in the manga.

People still try to argue Tsunade is Kage level? 

Sure she's a Kage level supporter like White Zetsu but who the fuck cares about that. Everyone knows that combat ninjas get laid the most


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## SpeedBlitz (Dec 31, 2011)

The Jeffrey said:


> Pretty much this right here.


For the purposes of this thread it's a level. And you all know what level I'm talking about, y'all just nitpicking.

I'm talking about the Kage class that Gaara belongs to but Tsunade clearly does not.


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## raizen28 (Dec 31, 2011)

SpeedBlitz said:


> For the purposes of this thread it's a level. And you all know what level I'm talking about, y'all just nitpicking.
> 
> I'm talking about the Kage class that Gaara belongs to but Tsunade clearly does not.


thats why Kakashi shouldve been Hokage because Kakashi>Tsunade and he's Kage Level, He Doesnt just have one particular power or skill


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## Hazuki (Dec 31, 2011)

Tengu said:


> Gai is currently fighting a bijuu, Kakashi is fighting 4 V2 jins, you were saying?



no , the true bijuu were use to creat *100 000 zetsu *

those v2 jins you are talking are far weaker than the original 

you must do the difference between 

-bijuu full power  that akatsuki duo were abble to capture ( witch is much more difficult than kill)


-bijuu that most of thei chakra were used to creat 100 000 zetsu ,( v2 jin are much weaker)


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## SaVaGe609 (Dec 31, 2011)

SpeedBlitz said:


> For the purposes of this thread it's a level. And you all know what level I'm talking about, y'all just nitpicking.
> 
> I'm talking about the Kage class that Gaara belongs to but Tsunade clearly does not.



The line between "Elite Jounin" and "Kage" is indecisive to say the least. 

But for argumentative purposes, I could see Gai defeating Gaara outside of the desert.


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## Hazuki (Dec 31, 2011)

raizen28 said:


> thats why Kakashi shouldve been Hokage because Kakashi>Tsunade and he's Kage Level, He Doesnt just have one particular power or skill



konoha disagree 

the 2 elder didn't even want kakashi as hokage 

when they heard that hanzo was killed and tsunade in coma 

they said " we have no choice then .."

even when tsunade was in coma , the lord and elder weren't even motived to choose kakashi , while danzo was in the dark side he was still chosen 



kakashi isn't even an hokage candidat for the 2 elder while they were very happy for tsunade or danzo

he was choosed by default , because they wasn't a hokage candidat


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## ImSerious (Dec 31, 2011)

Tengu said:


> Gai is currently fighting a bijuu, Kakashi is fighting 4 V2 jins, you were saying?



This              .


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## titantron91 (Dec 31, 2011)

While Tsunade is Kage Level (Mid-Kage level of power at best), she's less battle oriented than most ninja.


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## raizen28 (Dec 31, 2011)

*Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 19 (9 members and 10 guests) *


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## Young Grasshopper (Dec 31, 2011)

Perhaps you should lurk a bit more if you don't think Tsunade is Kage-level.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 31, 2011)

OP, you are aware that saying Kakashi isnt Kage level when he was appointed for Kage is like saying having 1 billion dollars doesnt makes you billionaire level?

I think you should have argued saying "Kakashi, isnt as powerful as any of the past or current Kages".


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## Hazuki (Dec 31, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> OP, you are aware that saying Kakashi isnt Kage level when he was appointed for Kage is like saying having 1 billion dollars doesnt makes you billionaire level?
> ".




Are you aware that the 2 elder didn't want kakashi as hokage and that they choose him by default ??
they said "  too bad danzo died , the best die always early ,  we have no choice to choose you kakashi " 

kakashi was appointed for kage by default because he was the last resort of konoha , and that there were no one other than him
*
there is a difference between " being appointed because you are truly a hokage candidat" AND  "being appointed as hokage by default because you are the strongest of the juunin , even if you aren't a  kage level ,  there are no other choice than you "
*


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## Orochibuto (Dec 31, 2011)

Hazuki said:


> Are you aware that the 2 elder didn't want kakashi as hokage and that they choose him by default ??
> they said "  too bad danzo died , the best die always early ,  we have no choice to choose you kakashi "
> 
> kakashi was appointed for kage by default because he was the last resort of konoha , and that there were no one other than him
> ...



That still make him Kage level regardless, is it ridiculous? Yes. But as ridiculous as it is by definition Kakashi is Kage level.

Now if you want to say Kakashi cant compare to any Kage bar Tsunade and Gaara outside the dessert I would agree with you I would agree with saying 

"Kakashi doesnt match the average level Kages are usually"

Then I could agree with you, but saying "Kakashi isnt Kage level" would be lying and I cant agree with you, because by definition even if he had zero jutsus he is Kage level.


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## Agony (Dec 31, 2011)

i've been in this forum for quite a while already and i still dont fucking understand why people used the word 'kage level'. it fuck things up actually.


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## Hasan (Dec 31, 2011)

Kakashi will give anyone a run for their money regardless of their level and skill. While he may not be a power-house like Naruto or Sasuke, he's well-versed in every field.

Kamui is his technique and should be counted as a part of his strength. Mangekyo affects badly even the Uchiha. It's impressive and a plus point for Kakashi to be able to use MS this good. He's already extremely good with it. It won't be long till he's able to use Kamui to its maximum capacity.

A Kage is supposed to be protector of the village. Being recommended for the position is a testament that Kakashi has the necessary power and abilities to protect Konoha. It's a long established fact which goes back to the time Jiraiya left for Amegakure. Pain considered him a threat to his plans. It's interesting to note that he didn't go near an _immobilized Kakashi just to be safe_.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 31, 2011)

Hasan said:


> *Kakashi will give anyone a run for their money regardless of their level and skill. *While he may not be a power-house like Naruto or Sasuke, he's well-versed in every field.
> 
> Kamui is his technique and should be counted as a part of his strength. Mangekyo affects badly even the Uchiha. It's impressive and a plus point for Kakashi to be able to use MS this good. He's already extremely good with it. It won't be long till he's able to use Kamui to its maximum capacity.
> 
> A Kage is supposed to be protector of the village. Being recommended for the position is a testament that Kakashi has the necessary power and abilities to protect Konoha. It's a long established fact which goes back to the time Jiraiya left for Amegakure. Pain considered him a threat to his plans. It's interesting to note that he didn't go near an _immobilized Kakashi just to be safe_.



Well I think this is really exaggerating things, I mean Kakashi wouldnt give a run for his money to Rikudou Sennin or Rinnegan Madara.

I think Kakashi is "Kage Level" in power level terms, but low Kage, in the level of Tsunade and Gaara without beign in a field that provides sand.


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## Maerala (Dec 31, 2011)

24 Hours said:


> Kakashi and Gai >>>> Tsunade





SpeedBlitz said:


> Which is why Tsunade sucks dick and is not Hokage level despite being a Hokage.



Every thread that has _anything at all_ to do with "Kage-level," without fail.


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## Hasan (Dec 31, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Well I think this is really exaggerating things, I mean Kakashi wouldnt give a run for his money to Rikudou Sennin or Rinnegan Madara.
> 
> I think Kakashi is "Kage Level" in power level terms, but low Kage, in the level of Tsunade and Gaara without beign in a field that provides sand.



'most' would be a good word. 

Now that you mentioned Madara, I think it's fair to wait and see his fight against Tobi. That said, none have the counter to Kamui except Tobi [well, apparently].


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## Tengu (Dec 31, 2011)

SpeedBlitz said:


> They're holding them back. Which is what I would expect from the two best Jonin in the manga.



And that is why they are kage-level.




Hazuki said:


> no , the true bijuu were use to creat *100 000 zetsu *
> 
> those v2 jins you are talking are far weaker than the original
> 
> ...



This is just a big assumption, the bijuu were never indicated to be in a weaker state now.
Tobi created the Zetsu army a while ago, since then the bijuu have their chakra back.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 31, 2011)

If Jiraiya and Tsunade consider Kakashi to be Kage level, then he is absolutely Kage level.

The majority of Jonin were going to support him, and even the Fire Country top brass were going to approve of him. Kakashi, whether people like it or not, is certainly Kage level. Gai sure as heck comes off as Kage level to me also.


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## Ghost (Dec 31, 2011)

Lmao, who gives a fuck about what two pussy ass konoha elders think? They wanted Danzo to be Hokage, because he was their teammate and they don't want to lose their position in Konoha. 

I wonder how long Kakashi would have kept those two fodders in their position, after thinking how they slaughtered the Uchiha...


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## Klue (Dec 31, 2011)

SpeedBlitz said:


> I obviously wasn't referring to "Kage level" as the political BS position. Hence the quotes around "Kage level"
> 
> You know exactly what I'm talking about; I'm talking about that line of certainty that's crossed by what is most commonly known as "S-class". Or Akatsuki level, or "Kage" level or whatever you want to call it.
> 
> Kakashi and Gai are clearly portrayed by Kishi as the beacon of the Jonin class and they play their roles in the manga beautifully. I highly doubt either will reach 100% Kage level status by the end of the manga. And they shouldn't either; that's not their job in the manga. That's Kakashi's students' job.



Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Kakashi is both a legend and holds an S-Rank in the bingo book.


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## SpeedBlitz (Dec 31, 2011)

Young Grasshopper said:


> Perhaps you should lurk a bit more if you don't think Tsunade is Kage-level.


Ive read the manga just as much as
Anyone here. Fuck u and ur post count. Everyone but the deluded feminists know Tsunade is not true S class (I want her to be as much as everyone else) but she is not.


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## Golden Circle (Dec 31, 2011)

Agony said:


> i've been in this forum for quite a while already and i still dont fucking understand why people used the word 'kage level'. it fuck things up actually.


I've been here a long while too I don't know why people want to use levels. This isn't dragonball. And debating about who is what level is too subjective and relative.

imo power level stuff is cancer. It wasn't here two years ago.


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## Closet Pervert (Dec 31, 2011)

Gai one shotted Kisame twice and made Itachi shit himself. I think that's Kage level.


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## raizen28 (Dec 31, 2011)

SpeedBlitz said:


> Ive read the manga just as much as
> Anyone here. Fuck u and ur post count. Everyone but the deluded feminists know Tsunade is not true S class (I want her to be as much as everyone else) but she is not.


HAHAH! he's funny too


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## Melodie (Dec 31, 2011)

Well, these three ninjas are as strong as kages no doubt. since people are comparing them to Tsunade i'll just say this.

Kakashi>Tsunade>Gai

Kakashi's Kamui is really overpowerd and i believe it will catch and defeat Tsunade, me being a Tsunade i admit that kakashi can actually defeat Tsunade.

Tsunade can win Against Gai thanks to her summoning, Katsuya. no phyiscal attacks will work against Katsuya and i believe that Katsuya will give the win for Tsunade against Gai.



SpeedBlitz said:


> Ive read the manga just as much as
> Anyone here. Fuck u and ur post count. Everyone but the deluded feminists know Tsunade is not true S class (I want her to be as much as everyone else) but she is not.



Tsunade is a Hokage and is a S rank class ninja, it's clearly canon. you will probably say "Kabuto defeated Tsunade", But that's incorrect Kabuto was clearly outmatched, despite Tsunade was out of shape, rusty and had the fear of blood. While kabuto had the advantage of knowing all of her weak points. The only reason Kabuto did actually immobile Tsunade for a while is thanks to Orochimaru for telling him Tsunade's Weak points.

P.S: Kabuto was as strong as Kakashi in part one.


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## hitokugutsu (Dec 31, 2011)

Kakashi & Gai are easily on par with mid tier Akatsukis like Kisame/Deidara/Kakuzu/Konan

And based on latest chapters Kakashi might even go beyond that


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## Sniffers (Dec 31, 2011)

Kakashi and Gai are tailing on the Sannin, if they haven't surpassed them already... individually that is. (After all, Kakashi should surpass his dad who had equal/better hype to/than even the Sannin so it only makes sense.)


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## Santoryu (Dec 31, 2011)

Terrible                                .

​


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## Reddan (Dec 31, 2011)

Sniffers said:


> Kakashi and Gai are tailing on the Sannin, if they haven't surpassed them already... individually that is. (After all, Kakashi should surpass his dad who had equal/better hype to/than even the Sannin so it only makes sense.)


Pretty much this. By the end of the series Kakashi and Gai should surpass the Sannin. They are probably not too far behind at the moment and could be at Sannin level.


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## emanresu (Dec 31, 2011)

Kakashi creating S level jutsu at age 9 is Kage level for sure


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## Reddan (Dec 31, 2011)

emanresu said:


> Kakashi creating S level jutsu at age 9 is Kage level for sure



Where did you get this from? Kakashi created an A-rank jutsu around the age of 13. Some time later he perfected the jutsu and turned it into and S-rank jutsu.


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## Hazuki (Dec 31, 2011)

Sniffers said:


> Kakashi and Gai are tailing on the Sannin, if they haven't surpassed them already... individually that is. (After all, Kakashi should surpass his dad who had equal/better hype to/than even the Sannin so it only makes sense.)



sannin isn't even a level  and are no way equal , you really lack of argue ..


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## Reddan (Dec 31, 2011)

Hazuki said:


> sannin isn't even a level  and are no where equal , you really lack of argue ..



Kishimoto disagrees with you there. He has said Tsunade is a match for Orochimaru and Jiraiya.


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## Hazuki (Dec 31, 2011)

arednad said:


> Kishimoto disagrees with you there. He has said Tsunade is a match for Orochimaru and Jiraiya.



where ??

everyone can say " kishimoto said that , or said that " 

it's really a lack of aknoledge to say that like this just because you don't have proof 

did you see how base jiraiya threated tsunade and how tsunade was afraid ??


for the last time sannin is a title , not a level 

title of 3 ninja very strong who were famous for their skill in team 

"offense deffense healing"


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## Chibason (Dec 31, 2011)

Kakashi was chosen to become Kage before Tsunade woke up from her coma. Thus, he is Kage level.


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## Young Grasshopper (Dec 31, 2011)

SpeedBlitz said:


> Ive read the manga just as much as
> Anyone here. Fuck u and ur post count. Everyone but the deluded feminists know Tsunade is not true S class (I want her to be as much as everyone else) but she is not.



Sooooo, in other words, u mad?


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## Closet Pervert (Dec 31, 2011)

Hazuki said:


> did you see how base jiraiya threated tsunade and how tsunade was afraid ??


She didn't look afraid to me.


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## James Bond (Dec 31, 2011)

"Kage level" is a cancer on these forums.


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## richmass (Dec 31, 2011)

I see where you're coming from OP, but the fact stands that they are "Kage level" simply put, Kakashi was almost made Hokage and Gai is his eternal rival, they are the same level hence they are both "Kage level".

But going power wise, I see what you mean in reference to Gai, but not so with Kakashi. The way I see it is this.. Kakashi has been portrayed in base to be elite jounin level, when he activates his sharingan in part 2 he becomes low kage level, when he uses his mangekyou he becomes mid kage level. Gai in base is elite jounin level, and when he activates gates he's mid kage level, simple as.

Kakashi's constant hype and appraisals by Madara, Nagato, Gai, the elders, Kakuzu, Itachi, and Raikage kind of proves this. I see people like Itachi, Naruto and Bee to be on one tier, and Kakashi and Gai to be the tier directly below that, still able to hang with them in a short skirmish but find themselves outgunned when the trump cards are pulled out. 

I would put Kakashi as "Akatsuki level" In the tier of ninja like Kakuzu, and Deidara, above Konan and Hidan, slightly below Itachi, Kisame and Sasori, and in a different realm to Pain.


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## Melodie (Dec 31, 2011)

Hazuki said:


> sannin isn't even a level  and are no way equal , you really lack of argue ..



the concept of the Sannin is Scissors, Paper, Stone, though the game in japan came in as "Slug, Snake, Frog" variation.

So yeah.., Slug > Snake > Frog > Slug. Which means Tsunade > Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Tsunade.

The Sannin are Equal, though not are equal in feats, yet.


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## ZE (Dec 31, 2011)

Sniffers said:


> Kakashi and Gai are tailing on the Sannin, if they haven't surpassed them already... individually that is. (After all, Kakashi should surpass his dad who had equal/better hype to/than even the Sannin so it only makes sense.)



Somehow I find it hard to believe Kakashi will ever be stronger than full power Jiraiya and Orochimaru. And when I say full power, I'm talking about SM Jiraiya, and Edo Tensei Oro. Right now, the difference between SM Jiraiya or Oro and Kakashi is way too big for us to expect Kishi to make a character say Kakashi surpassed the sannin. For that to happen, Kishi will have to give Kakashi a power up even bigger than his MS. Till then, Kakashi is inferior. Inferior to post-50% FRS Naruto, and inferior to the sannin.


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## tenrec (Dec 31, 2011)

Melodie said:


> the concept of the Sannin is Scissors, Paper, Stone, though the game in japan came in as "Slug, Snake, Frog" variation.
> 
> So yeah.., Slug > Snake > Frog > Slug. Which means Tsunade > Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Tsunade.
> 
> The Sannin are Equal, though not are equal in feats, yet.


 Imo Oro beats Tsunade seeing as how she has no way to kill him. I don't even know if Jiraiya can beat Oro. However Tsunade is clearly the weaker of the three. Remove her slug, and I believe Kakashi, and Guy with 6-7 gates can take her.



			
				ZE said:
			
		

> Somehow I find it hard to believe Kakashi will ever be stronger than full power Jiraiya and Orochimaru. And when I say full power, I'm talking about SM Jiraiya, and Edo Tensei Oro. Right now, the difference between SM Jiraiya or Oro and Kakashi is way too big for us to expect Kishi to make a character say Kakashi surpassed the sannin.


 All around it may apear that way but just like hiraishin puts Minato way up their, kamui does the same for Kakashi. He has the ability to send them to an entirely different dimension. He may lose most battles against them, but kamui is not a toy. He may not be on their level in all around ability, but defeating them is reasonably possible.





> For that to happen, Kishi will have to give Kakashi a power up even bigger than his MS. Till then, Kakashi is inferior. Inferior to post-50% FRS Naruto, and inferior to the sannin.


 I believe Kakashi would defeat kakuzu arc Naruto the majority of the time(he's just a much better shinobi when it comes to all around ability).


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## Melodie (Dec 31, 2011)

tenrec said:


> Imo Oro beats Tsunade seeing as how she has no way to kill him. I don't even know if Jiraiya can beat Oro. However Tsunade is clearly the weaker of the three. Remove her slug, and I believe Kakashi, and Guy with 6-7 gates can take her.



- Well, that's the concept of the Sannin, i am just saying it. i have said too that they're not equal in feats but are equal for kishi.

- Yes,  even though i am a Tsunade fan i believe Jiraiya or Orochimaru can defeat Tsunade. but as i said again it's just the concept of the SANNIN and they're not equal in feats.

- Restricting her slug is the same thing as restricting Gai's Gates, she was called the Slug princess for a reason.

I don't know why did you even quote me to say Oro beats Tsunade, or whatsoever. i am just putting the real Sannin variation.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 31, 2011)

First of all, I have one thing to say: *haters gotta hate.*

Anyone who still believes that Kakashi and Gai aren't Kage level seriously need to re-read the manga. I also like how the OP is calling Deidara and Kisame Kage level fighters, despite the fact that both Kakashi and Gai have already showed the capacity to one-shot Deidara and Kisame respectively in the manga. 

Kakashi was capable of taking out one of Deidara's arms using Kamui, and this was when he was relatively unskilled using the Mangekyo Sharingan. We can see that Kakashi's use of Kamui has clearly improved since then, allowing him to warp *much bigger and faster targets* than Deidara *in the form of Susano'o arrows.*

Another reason why Kakashi wasn't so successful in taking Deidara out with Kamui, is because he couldn't make it as big as necessary, due to the risk of accidentally warping Gaara too, Gaara who was lying on Deidara's clay bird at the time. Again, Kakashi has improved a lot with Kamui since then, by feats.

The only reasons why Gai seemed to have 'trouble' with Kisame during their final fight, were merely because Gai wasn't really going all out, as he wasn't intending to kill Kisame, as opposed to capturing him for useful information on Akatsuki, and was also focusing on preventing one of his sharks from escaping the island.

Kisame only lacked Samehada, but truth be told, it doesn't look like Samehada would've helped Kisame at all. It's useful against Ninjutsu users and Jinchuriki, but Gai is neither, and is just a straight-up Taijutsu user with insane speed and striking force. That's just one handicap compared to Gai's two, you know.

It's obvious that Gai is stronger than Kisame, and it's also obvious that Kakashi is stronger than Deidara, though people will obviously choose to ignore their feats and disagree. People also overstate the risk posed by Hachimon to Gai's body, we've seen that the guy can fight for very long periods using Hachimon.

Another interesting thing is that Kakashi and Gai are going through a similar ordeal to most Akatsuki members, probably even worse, as they have to fight not only one biju like Deidara and Kisame did, but they have to face one biju supported by several v2 Jinchuriki in their full tailed states.

And they're actually doing pretty good, even great, to be quite honest. Gai is clearly holding his own against the Rokubi, a stronger bjiu than the Yonbi, which gave even Kisame trouble, and Kakashi is also doing a great job at fending off *multiple v2 Jinchuriki*, even managing to damage them using his *Raiden. *


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## ZE (Dec 31, 2011)

tenrec said:


> All around it may apear that way but just like hiraishin puts Minato way up their, kamui does the same for Kakashi. He has the ability to send them to an entirely different dimension. He may lose most battles against them, but kamui is not a toy. He may not be on their level in all around ability, but defeating them is reasonably possible. I believe Kakashi would defeat kakuzu arc Naruto the majority of the time(he's just a much better shinobi when it comes to all around ability).



Using that argument, Kakashi could beat Nagato, Itachi, rinnegan Madara etc. with Kamui. Does that make him stronger than them? No.


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## Santoryu (Dec 31, 2011)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> First of all, I have one thing to say: *haters gotta hate.*
> 
> Anyone who still believes that Kakashi and Gai aren't Kage level seriously need to re-read the manga. I also like how the OP is calling Deidara and Kisame Kage level fighters, despite the fact that both Kakashi and Gai have already showed the capacity to one-shot Deidara and Kisame respectively in the manga.
> 
> ...



Pretty much.

I can add much more but I think someone should trash this garbage.


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## Sakura♥ (Dec 31, 2011)

Gai, when in 7 gate form, is Kage level. So Logically, he is also kage level in his 8 gates. 

In my opinion, when Kakashi is in Mangekyo form, he is Kage level. Of course, Kakashi is just opinion, but as we know, he has been able to take on Akatsuki Level Ninjas, and I don't believe he was using his Mangekyo in his fight with Kakazu.


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## tenrec (Dec 31, 2011)

Melodie said:


> - Well, that's the concept of the Sannin, i am just saying it. i have said too that *they're not equal in feats but are equal for kishi*.


 Aww Is that what Kishi promised you, just like that time he said it would be Kakashi's year and it wasn't? jk



> - Restricting her slug is the same thing as restricting Gai's Gates, she was called the Slug princess for a reason.


 No, that would be if we restricted Guys summon as well. I get what your saying though.



> I don't know why did you even quote me to say Oro beats Tsunade, or whatsoever. i am just putting the real Sannin variation.


 Just to express my opinion. I thought you actually bought into the whole slug>snake>toad thing which I thought wasn't actually true ability wise.



			
				ZE said:
			
		

> Using that argument, Kakashi could beat Nagato, Itachi, rinnegan Madara etc. with Kamui. Does that make him stronger than them? No.


Never said he was stronger, only acknowledged the fact that him defeating them is reasonably possible. He's not a genin who lacks the means to defeat them. It would just be difficult as hell unless he warped them immediately.


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## felixng2008 (Dec 31, 2011)

Kakashi and Gai are kage level. Kakashi is already nearly kage level without Kamui. Kamui puts him at kage level since it is so hax. There are drawbacks of course but it is a very hax technique and he can use it several times. Gai is also kage level he can use six gates for a fairly long period of time based on new feats.
Tsunade is also obviously kage level. She specializes in medical jutsu so ofc she doesn't seem as strong as other kages who are more battle oriented but she is arguably more useful in certain situations.


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## tenrec (Dec 31, 2011)

Tsunade is kage level... therefore Kakashi, and Guy are kage level.


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## Melodie (Dec 31, 2011)

> Aww Is that what Kishi promised you, just like that time he said it would be Kakashi's year and it wasn't? jk



It's not the same thing as what is said in interviews and others, The Sannin concept is "Scissors, Paper, Stone", that's all. just like Son goku being the king of apes.


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## felixng2008 (Dec 31, 2011)

tenrec said:


> Tsunade is kage level... therefore Kakashi, and Guy are kage level.



That doesn't really work. Beating a kage level nin doesn't automatically place you at kage level especially since Tsunade is more support based.


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## tenrec (Dec 31, 2011)

Melodie said:


> It's not the same thing as what is said in interviews and others, The Sannin concept is "Scissors, Paper, Stone", that's all. just like Son goku being the king of apes.


 Yeah, he is, but he's not. Enma is the true king. Just like the Slug beats the snake, but not really. Am I right? 



felixng2008 said:


> That doesn't really work. Beating a kage level nin doesn't automatically place you at kage level especially since Tsunade is more support based.


 What is your definition of kage level? Could a ninja with genin level combat ability be what you consider kage level? Is Tsunades fighting ability only jounin level?


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## Bart (Dec 31, 2011)

Ooooo really?

Well never forget that Kakashi was amongst the first candidate for the position of _Rokudaime Hokage_ and Itachi warns Kisame and the rest of Akatasuki of the dangers in taking on Gai during Part I :WOW


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## Melodie (Dec 31, 2011)

tenrec said:


> Yeah, he is, but he's not. Enma is the true king. Just like the Slug beats the snake, but not really. Am I right?


.......the LOS emoticon saved you.


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## tenrec (Dec 31, 2011)

Bart said:


> Ooooo really?
> 
> Well never forget that Kakashi was amongst the first candidate for the position of _Rokudaime Hokage_ and Itachi warns Kisame and the rest of Akatasuki of the dangers in taking on Gai during Part I :WOW


 That's right. Kakashi and Guy are respected and feared even by dangerous akatsuki members. Itachi himself said not to mess with Guy what more proof do you need?



Melodie said:


> .......the LOS emoticon saved you.


 Then why make such a face?     lol


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 31, 2011)

Kakashi and Gai are *easily* Kage level. If Deidara, Kakuzu and Kisame are considered Kage level by the entire forum, Kakashi and Gai should be too, as going by both feats and hype, Konoha's two strongest Jonin just seem to decisively trump the majority of Akatsuki in individual combat, let's be honest.

Anyone who thinks otherwise? *You're an Akatsuki fanboy, or fangirl.*

Even without mastering Kamui, Kakashi managed to take out one of Deidara's arms with ease using the technique. Now that Kakashi has actually mastered Kamui to the extent that it can deal with Susano'o's gigantic super speed arrows, he could probably defeat Deidara with the Mangekyo without much difficulty.

Every time Gai and Kisame have been pitted up against one another, Gai was always the one who dominated the fight. The first time, Kisame's equally durable Shoten Clone took an Asa Kujaku and died on the spot. The second time, a *not going all out* 'Green Beast' managed to take out the 'Blue Shark' with Hirudora.

As for Kakuzu, Kakashi managed to put up a fight against him, even while protecting Ino and Chouji (who were nearly useless and in fact were merely a burden to him for the entire fight), and claimed that he could've still beaten Kakuzu any time he liked with his still not completely mastered Kamui.

With current feats, though? Kakashi would *wipe the floor* with Kakuzu.


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## Jad (Dec 31, 2011)

The reason Pain didn't know who Gai was because Gai doesn't let his enemies live  So no information would be passed around~ 

job
"Zetsu says Maito Gai appears to be very skilled" Knows his name, but only knows that he 'appears' to be skilled. What does that mean lol. Does he know who he is, or does he have an ability of some sort.

And Itachi talks about him.

*By the way, Gai might have been fighting a 30% Kisame clone, but to be fair, Lee, Tenten, Neji and Gai were travelling non-stop for an entire day. So suck it~ I had no idea and I reckon no one else did. Since I saw no one use that as backup as to why Gai would be at a lesser quality then his usual self when fighting that clone.*

Infact he continued that drive of stamina up-until the end of the Gaara arc. That's even more likely the reason why he didn't overcome Deidara etc~ Makes sense why Deidara wasn't captured, because we could say that Gai was absolutely tired. INFACT he had no rest because straght after they revived Gaara, he carried Kakashi on his back to Konoha. Holy crap this guy is a Stamina freak~!!!!!

Plus that is a HUGE stamina feat for Neji and Tenten. Lee, well he would continue to run forever~


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## Joker J (Dec 31, 2011)

Jad said:


> The reason Pain didn't know who Gai was because Gai doesn't let his enemies live  So no information would be passed around~
> 
> job
> "Zetsu says Maito Gai appears to be very skilled" Knows his name, but only knows that he 'appears' to be skilled. What does that mean lol. Does he know who he is, or does he have an ability of some sort.
> ...



Do you know how long it takes to seal a Bijuu up to 4 days or more while you waste even more chakra on clones. You really believe running almost an entire day will effect a "ninja" of Gai caliber? You don't even believe a Kage level Ninja has what it takes to run and not be tired.


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## Jad (Dec 31, 2011)

Joker J said:


> You really believe running almost an entire day will effect a "ninja" of Gai caliber?



You can certainly say he wasn't at a hundred percent though.


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## supersaiyan146 (Dec 31, 2011)

tenrec said:


> Tsunade is kage level... therefore Kakashi, and Guy are kage level.



Flawless logic..Gotta agree with you


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## tenrec (Dec 31, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Flawless logic..Gotta agree with you


 Why thank you good sir. 



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Kakashi and Gai are *easily* Kage level. If Deidara, Kakuzu and Kisame are considered Kage level by the entire forum, Kakashi and Gai should be too, as going by both feats and hype, Konoha's two strongest Jonin just seem to decisively trump the majority of Akatsuki in individual combat, let's be honest.
> 
> Anyone who thinks otherwise? *You're an Akatsuki fanboy, or fangirl.*
> 
> ...


 I agree. Guy always dominated Kisame, yet people won't acknowledge that Guy is clearly mid akatsuki level. People will admit that an akatsuki member (except the weaker ones like hidan) is kage level, but will not admit that Guy is even though he defeated one of them single handedly. As for Kakashi he has more than enough feats in high level combat to prove he is at that level as well. They can still fight next to Naruto and Bee as far as I'm concerned not many can fight against jins without being killed very early on.


Jad said:


> The reason Pain didn't know who Gai was because Gai doesn't let his enemies live  So no information would be passed around~
> 
> job
> "Zetsu says Maito Gai appears to be very skilled" Knows his name, but only knows that he 'appears' to be skilled. What does that mean lol. Does he know who he is, or does he have an ability of some sort.
> ...


Good points.


Joker J said:


> Do you know how long it takes to seal a Bijuu up to 4 days or more while you waste even more chakra on clones. You really believe running almost an entire day will effect a "ninja" of Gai caliber?


 You could say the same for Kisame, almost biju level chakra. Honestly Kisame has more chakra than he knows what to do with, and* would likely get killed before expending it all anyway.* Just because someone has a million rounds left doesn't mean they will ever get to spit them before getting killed by a better shooter.


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## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Dec 31, 2011)

/Thread 

i didn't even read the OP the title is more than enough for me!


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## Ghost (Dec 31, 2011)

Jad said:


> The reason Pain didn't know who Gai was because Gai doesn't let his enemies live  So no information would be passed around~



True Story.


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## Joker J (Dec 31, 2011)

tenrec said:


> Why thank you good sir.
> 
> I agree. Guy always dominated Kisame, yet people won't acknowledge that Guy is clearly mid akatsuki level. People will admit that an akatsuki member (except the weaker ones like hidan) is kage level, but will not admit that Guy is even though he defeated one of them single handedly. As for Kakashi he has more than enough feats in high level combat to prove he is at that level as well. They can still fight next to Naruto and Bee as far as I'm concerned not many can fight against jins without being killed very early on.


Yes Gai did defeat a *handicapped* Kisame two times.



> Good points.


How is it a good point running almost a whole day shouldn't be nothing to a Kage level ninja.




> You could say the same for Kisame, almost biju level chakra. Honestly Kisame has more chakra than he knows what to do with, and* would likely get killed before expending it all anyway.* Just because someone has a million rounds left doesn't mean they will ever get to spit them before getting killed by a better shooter.



He only had 30% of himself. If Kisame had enough chakra, he would have used Senjikizame instead of just 5 sharks that's just telling you he was trying to conserve energy for that clone as long as possible. Even 30% beat base Gai at his own game. "CQC"


"Hold on let me shoot my nuke at you to capture you...." Yes that's right lets watch Gai in 7G mode use a attack that's stronger than MP then look at this scan and say "yep... that Gai attack was used to capture Kisame."


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## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Dec 31, 2011)

Joker J said:


> Yes Gai did defeat a *handicapped* Kisame two times.



Ummmmm ..... Now ... just ...now


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## Joker J (Dec 31, 2011)

rickmartin said:


> Ummmmm ..... Now ... just ...now



Is the statement i just said is false?


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## tenrec (Dec 31, 2011)

Joker J said:


> Yes Gai did defeat a *handicapped* Kisame two times.


 I won't say he was full powered.




> How is it a good point running almost a whole day shouldn't be nothing to a Kage level ninja.


Your right. 


> He only had 30% of himself. If Kisame had enough chakra, he would have used Senjikizame instead of just 5 sharks that's just telling you he was trying to conserve energy for that clone as long as possible. Even 30% *beat base Gai at his own game*. "CQC"


 Bolded for emphasis. Guy with Gates surpassed Kisame.


> "Hold on let me shoot my nuke at you to capture...." Yes that's right lets watch Gai in 7G mode use a attack that's stronger than MP then look at this scan and say "yep... that Gai attack was used to capture Kisame."


 Sometimes you gotta bring out the big guns against kage level shinobi just to incapacitate them. Kisame was strong with some of the best durability in this manga... and Guy managed to defeat him. I don't believe extra chakra would change the tides of their final battle, their would just be an extra wave or so.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 31, 2011)

Even if Kisame had more chakra, Gai could've beaten him.

More chakra =/ more durability or speed, at least not in Kisame's case.


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## Joker J (Dec 31, 2011)

tenrec said:


> I won't say he was full powered.


Of course, but why make it seem like it?



> Your right.


Uh huh.



> Bolded for emphasis. Guy with Gates surpassed Kisame.


Yea Gai was forced to use Gates on a 30% Kisame clone.



> Sometimes you gotta bring out the big guns against kage level shinobi just to incapacitate them. Kisame was strong with some of the best durability in this manga... and Guy managed to defeat him. I don't believe extra chakra would change the tides of their final battle, their would just be an extra wave or so.



It's not just about getting more chakra it's *"regeneration"* that will change the tide of their final battle. Kishi knew if Kisame had Samehada, he would keep regenerating from Gai attacks. He even PnJ Kisame to stop for nothing, to put a scroll inside a shark to let Gai catch up.


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## Jad (Dec 31, 2011)

Joker J said:


> It's not just about getting more chakra it's *"regeneration"* that will change the tide of their final battle. Kishi knew if Kisame had Samehada, he would keep regenerating from Gai attacks. He even PnJ Kisame to stop for nothing, to put a scroll inside a shark to let Gai catch up.



Only time I saw Kisame regenerate was when he was in fusion, after or before, nothing says he could :/

Everyone assuming it, but it hasn't happened, such a  bold claim cannot be made. Nothing, not even the power of the suns, not the son of Kishimoto, could change my mind on that. Why, because he hadn't regenerated AFTER fusion on any particular injuries, and since he recieved none, then your point is moot.


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## tenrec (Dec 31, 2011)

Joker J said:


> Of course, but why make it seem like it?


 Because as I said earlier the chakra likely would not have even been consumed before he got decked by Guy. Quality beats quantity, and I don't believe extra chakra would have changed that battle unless your assuming they would have fought for a very long time, but Guy would still use gates and put him down early.



> Uh huh.


 Kage level Guy ftw buddy


> Yea Gai was forced to use Gates on a 30% Kisame clone.


 He won and did the same against the real Kisame.





> It's not just about getting more chakra it's *"regeneration"* that will change the tide of their final battle. Kishi knew if Kisame had Samehada, he would keep regenerating from Gai attacks. He even PnJ Kisame to stop for nothing, to put a scroll inside a shark to let Gai catch up.


 All Guy needs to do is remove samehada from his grasp, an easy feat when the 6 gates are used. Hell Guy could probably take out Kisame* and samehada* with asa kujaku.


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## Joker J (Dec 31, 2011)

Jad said:


> Only time I saw Kisame regenerate was when he was in fusion, after or before, nothing says he could :/
> 
> Everyone assuming it, but it hasn't happened, such a  bold claim cannot be made. Nothing, not even the power of the suns, not the son of Kishimoto, could change my mind on that. Why, because he hadn't regenerated AFTER fusion on any particular injuries, and since he recieved none, then your point is moot.



How is impossible for Samehada to heal Kisame without fusing?
We already see Samehada healing Bee.


It does the same to Kissame.


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## Santoryu (Dec 31, 2011)

mods trash my thread (which wasn't delusional like this one)  but decide to let this one carry on for so long.
*Terrible.*


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## Skilatry (Dec 31, 2011)

I agree, they're high jonin level thats it. Gai with gates is Kage level but its only momentary. The only Akatsuki memeber they could beat in a fair fight is Hidan imo.


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## Joker J (Dec 31, 2011)

tenrec said:


> Because as I said earlier the chakra likely would not have even been consumed before he got decked by Guy. Quality beats quantity, and I don't believe extra chakra would have changed that battle unless your assuming they would have fought for a very long time, but Guy would still use gates and put him down early.


It's not all just about chakra it's about the regenerating also.



> Kage level Guy ftw buddy


Of course, he's kage level.



> He won and did the same against the real Kisame. All Guy needs to do is remove samehada from his grasp, an easy feat when the 6 gates are used. Hell Guy could probably take out Kisame* and samehada* with asa kujaku.



How is Gai able to take Samehada off his skin?
How will real Kisame die from MP when he didn't die against Gai one-hit kill?


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## Ghost (Dec 31, 2011)

Skilatry said:


> I agree, they're high jonin level thats it. Gai with gates is Kage level but its only momentary. The only Akatsuki memeber they could beat in a fair fight is Hidan imo.





Kakashi could take on Kakuzu, Sasori, Deidara and Kisame and win the fight.


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## Viper (Dec 31, 2011)

Skilatry said:


> The only Akatsuki memeber they could beat in a fair fight is Hidan imo.



Yh but only if they know Hidan's abilities, Asuma didn't and now he's dead.


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## Skilatry (Dec 31, 2011)

WhitefangFlash said:


> Kakashi could take on Kakuzu, Sasori, Deidara and Kisame and win the fight.



wow, this quote is proof of why Kakashi along with Itachi are the most overrated characters on this forum.


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## tenrec (Dec 31, 2011)

Joker J said:


> It's not all just about chakra it's about the regenerating also.
> How is Gai able to take Samehada off his skin?
> How will real Kisame die from MP when he didn't die against Gai one-hit kill?


 What chapter did super Kisame(fused with samehada) regenerate on? 

If Guy just endlessly pounds Kisame until he starts to sweat, and his arm muscles get really sore, His veins are popping out, and he's gasping for air from running out of stamina, I believe it's game over Kisame. Guy might need to just pound him into a pulp(literally) until Kisame is long dead, meaning no further regeneration.



ViperXRockwave said:


> Yh but only if they know Hidan's abilities, Asuma didn't and now he's dead.


 This assuming Guy or Kakashi's blood is shed. Kakashi was fending off Hidan's scythe with a single kunai while being attacked by Kakuzu, and not an inch of blood was drawn from Kakashi. Guy could definitely do the same. The hard part would be completely incapacitating him.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 31, 2011)

Skilatry said:


> I agree, they're high jonin level thats it. Gai with gates is Kage level but its only momentary. The only Akatsuki memeber they could beat in a fair fight is Hidan imo.



Despite the inexcusable fact that Gai has defeated Kisame twice in direct combat, the first time with ease and only using Hachimon x6, and also defeated Kisame the second time, even when he was only trying to capture him as opposed to kill him, and was also trying to prevent a shark leaving the island?

Despite the fact that Kakashi's Kamui, even when not fully mastered, was a huge problem to Deidara by itself, easily taking out one of his arms and nearly taking out his head too? Despite feats clearly indicating that Kamui at its current level would be far too much for Deidara to handle? Haters gotta hate.

*Just GTFO.*


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## tenrec (Dec 31, 2011)

Santoryu said:


> mods trash my thread (which wasn't delusional like this one)  but decide to let this one carry on for so long.
> *Terrible.*


  The mods are behind this too!!!


Skilatry said:


> wow, this quote is proof of why Kakashi along with Itachi are the most overrated characters on this forum.


 Kamui is a viable option against those particular akatsuki members. Kakashi tactically is leagues above them as well. It's not that far fetched.


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## Skilatry (Dec 31, 2011)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Despite the inexcusable fact that Gai has defeated Kisame twice in direct combat, the first time with ease and only using Hachimon x6? Despite the fact that Kakashi's Kamui, even when not fully mastered, was a huge problem to Deidara, and at its current level, would be able to *easily* kill Deidara?
> 
> Just GTFO.



Gai had to use 6 gates on a 30% Kisame and in their second fight had to use 7 gates against a Samehada'less Kisame who got punched the fuck out of by RM Naruto.

And Deidara wasnt even interested in Kakashi,  he was trying to capture Naruto. You honestly think Kakashi would be able to beat the same Deidara that fought Sasuke?


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## Crimson Flam3s (Dec 31, 2011)

Itachi is an example of a jonin with kage level techniques, without ms he wouldn't be kage level.

Fail logic is fail

Is the techniques, and intelligence that determine a kage, not being a jonin with kage level techniques.


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## Ghost (Dec 31, 2011)

Skilatry said:


> wow, this quote is proof of why Kakashi along with Itachi are the most overrated characters on this forum.



Dunno about Itachi but Kakashi ain't overrated he is underrated. Kakashi's stats have grown considerably since his battle with Kakuzu.


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## Octavian (Dec 31, 2011)

this is ridiculous. kakashi and gai have shown they are kage level in recent chapters and people are still making these threads.


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## Doom Katon (Dec 31, 2011)

I believe that even if Kakashi is made Hokage, defeats all the bijuu, defeats Madara, and protects Konoha for 10 years people will say he isnt kage level...so it doesnt even make sense to argue.  Kishi has tried so many times to portray Kakashi in a certain way and no matter what people just deny deny deny.  By the way i have now changed my opinion of Gai, he is Kage level, that's all i have to say for now.


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Dec 31, 2011)

They are both Kage level.

In Kakashi's case its his speed, intelligence, stealthiness, Raiton KB, his ability to easilly smell and sense the enemy, sharingan precognition and genjutsu, and his many various jutsu, including possesing some that allow him to even go underground *and *Kamui.

It might not be flashy but Kakashi has ways to surprise enemies and swiftly appear to land a raikiri strike. Appearing in that fashion against Kakuzu and even Tobi.

And of course as always there is Kamui. It's not Kamui alone that makes him Kage level. Unlike other ninjas Kakashi is less about directly having overpowering jutsu while being pretty powerful.

Unlike Guy who has overpowering techniques and is more directly powerful.

Who in sixth or seventh gate he has incredible firepower and speed. 

In the seventh gate with one punch while trying not to kill Kisame he almost knocked him out and swiftly appeared to punch him again. Nothing stops him from using his incredible firepower not once or twice but say three times or possibly more. He has incredible powers with a high sideffect, but his powers are above what most Kage level can do without drawback but his powers are kind of onedimensional and with a sideeffect so it's fair. 

And that is just seventh gate, with the eighth he probably can eliminate multiple Kage class shinobi at the cost of his life.

Tsunade is also kage class but a kage class support ninja.

Then there is Sarutobi who managed to seal the first, second Hokage and Orochimaru arms while in his old age and out of his prime. Featwise alone in terms of what techniques he showed he might be lacking I guess but his overall performance wasn't lacking.


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## Mistshadow (Dec 31, 2011)

Lol next we r gonna get threads saying naruto bee or mei aren't Kate level or even pein.

Trashy troll thread needs to be trashed


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## Joker J (Dec 31, 2011)

tenrec said:


> What chapter did super Kisame(fused with samehada) regenerate on?


Huh? You don't know what chapters Kisame healed himself with the aid of Samehada?



> If Guy just endlessly pounds Kisame until he starts to sweat, and his arm muscles get really sore, His veins are popping out, and he's gasping for air from running out of stamina, I believe it's game over Kisame. Guy might need to just pound him into a pulp(literally) until Kisame is long dead, meaning no further regeneration.



Gai won't be able to be fast enough underwater to gain the upper hand. The water will drastically reduce his his speed in his mobility and his strikes.

You really want Gai fist to meet the chakra absorbing skin o Kisamehada?
Kisame becomes the faster ninja when underwater.


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## felizlombriz (Dec 31, 2011)

logic fail+1 
try again later


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## benstevens19 (Dec 31, 2011)

"Kage level" is not even a real level. there all jounnin. 
End thread.


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## tenrec (Jan 1, 2012)

benstevens19 said:


> "Kage level" is not even a real level. there all jounnin.
> End thread.


 Kage level is on the ability of all current kage. So* if you can beat the weakest kage in combat, or compete tactically* with the smartest kage, your kage level imo.


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## Mistshadow (Jan 1, 2012)

tenrec said:


> Kage level is on the ability of all current kage. So* if you can beat the weakest kage in combat, or compete tactically*with the smartest kage, your kage level imo.



which both of these gys can do.

speedblitz is just mad cuz he isnt kage level


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## Ghost (Jan 1, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> which both of these gys can do.
> 
> *speedblitz is just mad cuz he isnt kage level*


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## tenrec (Jan 1, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> which both of these gys can do.
> 
> speedblitz is just mad cuz he isnt kage level


 I think your right, all non kage level ninja please exit this thread immediately. 


Joker J said:


> Huh? You don't know what chapters Kisame healed himself with the aid of Samehada?


 No I don't....  please forgive me. lol


> Gai won't be able to be fast enough underwater to gain the upper hand. The water will drastically reduce his his speed in his mobility and his strikes.
> 
> You really want Gai fist to meet the chakra absorbing skin o Kisamehada?
> Kisame becomes the faster ninja when underwater.


 When Guy activates the 7th gate *water is forced away from his body* from the massive power of his chakra. Weaklings can't even stand next to him, or in other words he doesn't swim with the fishes he eats them.


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## Burke (Jan 1, 2012)

congradulations, this is now KBD


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## tenrec (Jan 1, 2012)

St. Burke said:


> congradulations, this is now KBD


 lol It kinda is huh.


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## Samuraijack (Jan 1, 2012)

"Kage Level" is an arbitrary term. The level of kage is given to the strongest ninja in a village, regardless of their _overall_ power level.

During the timeskip Gaara became Kazekage, which makes him Kage level. But in Part 1 Naruto beat Gaara; hell, he beat the Shukaku. Does that mean Part 1 pre-rasengan Naruto was Kage level?


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## frenchmax (Jan 1, 2012)

I see so much people here arguing about "kage level" I don' t even understand which points make a person "kage level". Cause in comparision to previous hokages or to other kages, I' d like to know which criteria make Tsunade a "kage level" person... seriously in terms of versatility and will of fire, kakashi would deserve the title definatly more than tsunade


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## Melodie (Jan 1, 2012)

frenchmax said:


> title definatly more than tsunade



- Kakashi is only stronger than Tsunade, But Tsunade clearly Deserves the title of the hokage more than kakashi. Tsunade tend to be very intelligent as a leader of a village and her abilitys makes her a very good Hokage. Kakashi is clearly not a material to be the Leader of the Village, he himself believes so.

So Yes, the only category That kakashi is better than Tsunade as a Hokage is that he's stronger than her in a one vs one battle and yet again the gap between them isn't even huge.

Anyways i don't see why this thread is still going. as a fighters they're clearly a Kage level without discussion.


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## Sasukethe7thHokage (Jan 1, 2012)

They arent people just wanna belive they are


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## Joker J (Jan 1, 2012)

tenrec said:


> I think your right, all non kage level ninja please exit No I don't....  please forgive me. lol



Samehada doesn't have to fuse with the user to heal it was shown n the Manga. All the user have to do is hold the handle.



> When Guy activates the 7th gate *water is forced away from his body* from the massive power of his chakra. Weaklings can't even stand next to him, or in other words he doesn't swim with the fishes he eats them.



I explained this many times that Gai water repelling is only *temporary* when only Gai releases a Gate.  The Manga shows you this.


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## G Felon (Jan 1, 2012)

I agree guy is kage level but only in 5 gates or above. I don't see him being a challenge to any kage level ninja unless he is of that level. 3 gates he could fight tsunade and win but that's hit, I don't even consider tsunade kage level it does matter what feats she has she useless in battle all she can do is heal. Base guy is top jonin level and that's were he's gonna stay unless he starts doing nintaijutsus or something he's staying there. 

Kakashi though he not kage level he just has a kage level move nothing more. Everyone kage level has high intelligence as it is his being seen as being a bit higher does not make a difference. The guy only does 2 jutsus and everytime he faces a kage level ninja he running away thinking of a strategy for time. He couldn't put much of a fight against pain, one path alone could beat him and he only stood a chance since he was with 2 other people and he still died.


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## Hasan (Jan 2, 2012)

G Felon said:


> I agree guy is kage level but only in 5 gates or above. I don't see him being a challenge to any kage level ninja unless he is of that level. 3 gates he could fight tsunade and win but that's hit, I don't even consider tsunade kage level it does matter what feats she has she useless in battle all she can do is heal. Base guy is top jonin level and that's were he's gonna stay unless he starts doing nintaijutsus or something he's staying there.
> 
> Kakashi though he not kage level he just has a kage level move nothing more. Everyone kage level has high intelligence as it is his being seen as being a bit higher does not make a difference. The guy only does 2 jutsus and everytime he faces a kage level ninja he running away thinking of a strategy for time. He couldn't put much of a fight against pain, one path alone could beat him and he only stood a chance since he was with 2 other people and he still died.





What makes Hashirama, Madara, Minato, Itachi etc contend with the Kages?

Like I said earlier, any Kage is supposed have to strength and ability to protect his/her village in time of crisis. Kakashi being chosen for the position of Rokudaime tells us that he has strength and capabilities to do so.

I doubt anyone [except Tobi, maybe] have counter to Kamui. Raikiri is hyped to have split lightning in half [with Gai being the witness, apparently]. A strategist, tactician and an expert in every area [though he leans towards Ninjutsu]. Strategy is important part of battle and it was _Kakashi's intel_ which eventually led to Deva's downfall. The same Deva Path who outran KN6.

Itachi warned Akatsuki about Gai not once but twice. Unparalleled Taijutsu and Hachimon is what makes him a dangerous opponent.

Right now,They are holding back the V2 Forms [They're most likely stronger the rest of Edo army] & Bijuu. Not many are capable of such feats. Come on, their current feats further enforces the point. They're deadly fighters and with flawless teamwork, they're almost unbeatable [eh, a bit exaggeration]. This reminds me, _Kakashi was specifically chosen to keep Kyuubi in check should the latter ever go on a rampage._

Frankly, I don't know what's the big deal. It was established around the time Jiraiya left for Amegakure.


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 2, 2012)

SpeedBlitz said:


> They are exemplary Jonin each possessing a Kage level technique _with Kage level drawbacks._
> 
> Deidara's C4 doesn't automatically spell GG for him if it doesn't connect the first time. Kisame's Water Dome doesn't end Kisame if it doesn't work. Hashirama's Jukai Kotan is Kage level in its effects AND Hashirama is able to use that as his "basic attack"
> 
> ...


Kakashi may not have a potently powerful arsenal like Madara, Hashirama but the way he uses what he has makes him a Kage Level shinobi. This might sound like a foreign concept for you but Kakashi's intellect combined with his ability makes him a kage-level shinobi.

Kisame, Deidara, Kakuzu and etc are all considered Kage Level Shinobi as well. If you can kill a Kage with your techniques, then you are a kage level shinobi.


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## Appleofeden (Jan 2, 2012)

Kakashi was going to b Kage if Tsunade didn't recover, he's  definetly Kage level.


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## Kanki (Jan 2, 2012)

It's quite simple really - Kakashi + Gai are Kage level, they just isn't as strong as most of the other kages.

Kage level is quite subjective though. Hashirama/Minato would probably destroy Mei in a fight, yet officially they hold the same rank (kage).


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