# Oberyn Martell vs Jaime Lannister



## Taijukage (Jun 2, 2014)

who wins in a duel to the death?
standard equipment. 
arena


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## teddy (Jun 2, 2014)

Oberyn


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## Seraphiel (Jun 2, 2014)

By standard equipment do you mean his spear? Because he picked that especially for Gregor. If he used a sword he would get slaughtered like trash, only one who could probably beat 2 handed Jaime is Selmey.


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## Gin (Jun 2, 2014)

I'm just gonna say Oberyn because he deserves a win today


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## Taijukage (Jun 2, 2014)

standard as far as we know ie we can assume his weapon of choice for anyone is the spear because we never saw him use anything else


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## Gone (Jun 2, 2014)

They're both first class warriors, it could go either way. I give the edge to Oberyn because of the spear. It's true he said that it was the only weapon that could counter the Mountain's reach, but it seems to me that this same impressive reach would only make it doubly as effective against a shorter man like Jamie with less armor.

It's true Jamie is faster than Gregor, but Oberyn was moving so fast that Tyrion compared the Mountain trying to hack the spear with trying to hack the wings off a fly. Obviously this is hyperbole, but the point is that Oberyn's extremely fast with the spear. I give it to him 7/10.


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## Rivers (Jun 2, 2014)

Dornishmen are known for using spears and poison. 

So Oberyn's weapon of choice just happened to be the best counter for the Mountain as well.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 2, 2014)

Oberyn. 
The viper fells the lion.


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## Reddan (Jun 2, 2014)

Jaime would win most of the time. Jaime is not only exceptionally quick, but he is also the most naturally gifted swordsman of his generation. Throw in that he is also quite tall and very strong then he should win more times than not.

This is what Brienne thinks of Jaime.

*Brienne remembered her fight with Jaime Lannister in the woods. It had been all that she could do to keep his blade at bay. He was weak from his imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight! His maiming had been monstrously cruel. It was one thing to slay a lion, another to hack his paw off and leave him broken and bewildered.*


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## Rivers (Jun 2, 2014)

Jaime 6.3/10.

As Tyrion said, a lone spear is at a disadvantage against a skilled and experienced swordsman.

Jaime is an elite swordsman while Oberyn is an elite spearman. Poison spear probably means Jaime is dying more times than not. However, I see Jaime killing Oberyn more times than not as well.


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## Zhen Chan (Jun 2, 2014)

Rivers said:


> As Tyrion said, a lone spear is at a disadvantage against a skilled and experienced swordsman.



Thats actually wrong as hell, a spear is at an enormous advantage on open ground 

It has greater reach, speed, and since it is a thrusting weapon it has a far higher chance to perice armor or target chinks


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## Rivers (Jun 2, 2014)

Zhen Chan said:


> Thats actually wrong as hell, a spear is at an enormous advantage on open ground
> 
> It has greater reach, speed, and since it is a thrusting weapon it has a far higher chance to perice armor or target chinks



In the ASOFAI verse, if the opponent has a shield and is exceptional in the sword like Jaime, he could parry the spear point to the side - and then rush at Oberyn with speed.

Once Jaime is inside the radius of the spear head there's not much Oberyn can do with it.

Not to mention, if Jaime predicts the thrust of the spear he can strike at the shaft, weakening the wood - if not eventually breaking the spear point off.


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## Alucardemi (Jun 2, 2014)

Jaime more often than not. Still a great fight.


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## Gone (Jun 2, 2014)

Rivers said:


> In the ASOFAI verse, if the opponent has a shield and is exceptional in the sword like Jaime, he could parry the spear point to the side - and then rush at Oberyn with speed.
> 
> Once Jaime is inside the radius of the spear head there's not much Oberyn can do with it.
> 
> Not to mention, if Jaime predicts the thrust of the spear he can strike at the shaft, weakening the wood - if not eventually breaking the spear point off.



Pretty sure Oberyn put that argument to rest against the Mountain. Yea Jamie is faster than the Mountain, but Oberyn was fast as hell with the spear. Besides, Tyrion is hardly an expert on combat. Gregor tried to hack at the spear and he never even came close.


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## Zhen Chan (Jun 2, 2014)

Rivers said:


> In the ASOFAI verse, if the opponent has a shield and is exceptional in the sword like Jaime, he could parry the spear point to the side - and then rush at Oberyn with speed.
> 
> Once Jaime is inside the radius of the spear head there's not much Oberyn can do with it.
> 
> Not to mention, if Jaime predicts the thrust of the spear he can strike at the shaft, weakening the wood - if not eventually breaking the spear point off.



That was a pretty common defense against spears in real life, know what spear users dod to counter it?


A back step.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 2, 2014)

Could go either way but if Jamie wins he'd probably be poisoned and die off.

EDIT Going with a spear Oberyn has good reach and is fast in his own right but I'm sure Jamie must have dealt with those in the many tourneys he was in(works both ways as same would apply to Oberyn whose probably dealt with counters via sword).


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## Rivers (Jun 2, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> Pretty sure Oberyn put that argument to rest against the Mountain. Yea Jamie is faster than the Mountain, but Oberyn was fast as hell with the spear. Besides, Tyrion is hardly an expert on combat. Gregor tried to hack at the spear and he never even came close.



The Mountain has reach and power over Jaime, but no doubt Jaime has quicker feet/body movement...and much faster and more accurate sword strikes. Not to mention much less of a hit target compared to the Mountain and therefore even smaller chinks in his armor.

The Mountain reacts well in fighting, but that's about it. Especially with a great helm bolted onto his gorget, his field of vision was narrow at best. He had to move his whole body just to scan movement to his side. 

Even after his heavy plate had dropped his stamina down, there was an instance when the Mountain had passed Oberyn's spear point radius, closing the distance on him. Oberyn literally had no choice but to drop his spear to the ground, and spend a good time dodge rolling this way and that. 

In an event where Oberyn has to drop his spear against Jaime for a time, and face the quick and skillful Kingslayer with speed and shield alone....till he can circle and pick up his spear at a further distance...? Not good odds to say the least. 

Tyrion is a learned man. He's read plenty about the History of Westeros, about it's numerous great families, about their allegiances and thier many battles amongst each other. About the Dornishmen's long history of fighting the Reach, the Stormlands etc. 

Im sure he also paid particular attention to familiarizing himself to combat strategies in preparing the defence of King's Landing against Stannis.


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## Gone (Jun 2, 2014)

And Oberyn also stabbed the Mountain with his spear at some points where he may well have punched through Jamie's armor. But that's irrelevant as the argument about Oberyn dropping his spear, because a fight against Jamie wouldn't go the same way as the fight against Gregor.

If Oberyn and Jamie fought, spear vs sword, odds are Jamie would be the one who was dodging all over the place, trying to get inside Oberyn's reach, as opposed to the Mountain who just relied on his shield and armor and kept charging at Oberyn.

Jamie may be faster than the Mountain, but he isn't faster than Oberyn, and he would have to be to get inside his reach. Oberyn's spear was 8 feet long and he moved it so fast that the Mountain couldn't even touch it.

The very fact that Tyrion was wrong should put the idea of him being an expert on spear fighting to rest.


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## Rivers (Jun 2, 2014)

Zhen Chan said:


> That was a pretty common defense against spears in real life, know what spear users dod to counter it?
> 
> A back step.



Yeah, Oberyn did spend a good time back stepping against the Mountain. 

Heck he had to do that once he dropped his spear after the Mountain had barged passed the spear tip and was barrelling towards him. 

Though, keeping _*just*_ a head of the Mountain Id say is easier than keeping a head of the quicker-moving Jaime. The Kingslayer may even have the wits to not simply chase Oberyn once inside range - but concentrate on his spear, snapping it before Oberyn can pick it up again.


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## Rivers (Jun 2, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> And Oberyn also stabbed the Mountain with his spear at some points where he may well have punched through Jamie's armor.



Evidence of this?


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## Rivers (Jun 2, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> Oberyn's spear was 8 feet long and he moved it so fast that the Mountain couldn't even touch it.



The Mountain's swordsmanship and speed << Jaimes'.



> The very fact that Tyrion was wrong should put the idea of him being an expert on spear fighting to rest.



You mean the terrible flaw of a spear _*wasn't* _shown when Oberyn had _*better chances dropping  the spear*_ - since it was near useless once someone was inside of the spearhead?


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## Gone (Jun 3, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Evidence of this?



The Mountain's armor is twice as thick as Jamie's and he wore chainmail under it?



> The Mountain's swordsmanship and speed << Jaimes'.



And his armor, strength, endurance, and reach >>> Jamie's, all of which are just as helpful as speed in getting inside the 8 foot reach of the spear. Yes Jamie is faster than the Mountain, but you've shown nothing that says he's faster than Oberyn.



> You mean the terrible flaw of a spear wasn't shown when Oberyn had better chances dropping the spear - since it was near useless once someone was inside of the spearhead?



Prove that Jamie could disarm him. And don't just say he's faster and a better swordsman than the Mountain. The Mountain had more reach, thicker armor, and better endurance, so he could charge forward against a cornered Oberyn the way that Jamie probably couldn't.

For the record I'm not saying Jamie couldn't disarm Oberyn, but I'm not taking it as an inevitability the way you seem to be.


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## Extravlad (Jun 3, 2014)

This thread is a joke.
Anyone who believes that Oberyn has a chance against Jaime is delusional and doesn't understand anything.
Oberyin overcame the Mountain with his brain because Gregor is an average swordsman skillwise.
Jaime would beats him 100 times out of 100.
If Jaime and Barristan are tier 1 then Garlan/Victarion are tier 2 and Oberyn is tier 3 at best


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 3, 2014)

Victarion tier 2.
Lol, no.


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## Extravlad (Jun 3, 2014)

You can put him tier 3 I don't give a shit about that.
My point still stands, Jaime kills Oberyn with no difficulty, he's the superior fighter by far.

Oberyn is the most overrated character after Sandor Clegane


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## Axl Low (Jun 3, 2014)

actually this is a pretty balance fight IMO
it truly does go either way
Oberyn is going to have to play very carefully because Jaime trades The Mountain's massive armor with speed which is what would did Oberyn some real trouble 

although poison to a weakness to the armor is just playtime for the Viper


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## Extravlad (Jun 3, 2014)

> actually this is a pretty balance fight IMO


No it's not, a little prince overhyped and overrated because he's actually liked by the readers doesn't make this fight close.

Jaime stomps.


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## Darth Niggatron (Jun 3, 2014)

How about you give reasons why Jaime stomps. Reasons that aren't 'hurr durr hodor hodor hodor'.


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## Extravlad (Jun 3, 2014)

> How about you give reasons why Jaime stomps. Reasons that aren't 'hurr durr hodor hodor hodor'.


Barristan said that Jaime is the most talented swordsman he ever saw.
Oberyn martell has no feats (beating the overrated Mountain doesn't mean that much Clegane brothers are not that good just look what happened to the Hound against some fodders), no hype and is not even a knight in the first place.
Jaime shits on him no difficulty, you guys are biased because Oberyn is a good character and everyone likes him.

There is a world between Jaime/Barristan and fighters like Oberynn/Sandor.

Sandor was taken down by fodders, Barristan could have taken 5 kingsguard by himself.


It's like this fucking hype around Robb being one of the best commander and on par with Stannis


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## Enclave (Jun 3, 2014)

The impression I get in this thread?  Some people don't like Oberyn and thus are trying to under-rate him.

The fact that he could have killed the Mountain multiple times with ease in their fight is proof positive that he is one of the most skilled and deadly fighters in Westeros.  If he and Jaime (before maiming of course) fought?  There really is only 2 outcomes.  Either Jaime dies or they both die.  If you're fighting Oberyn then if you get a scratch?  You're dead without a miracle and Jaime won't be defeating Oberyn without Oberyn at the very least drawing blood.

If you remove poison from the equasion then you still have a fight that could potentially go either way and is very hard to call.  Both are naturally highly gifted in combat.


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## Gone (Jun 3, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Barristan said that Jaime is the most talented swordsman he ever saw.



Lol Actually what he said was that Tumco Lho was the most talented fighter he had seen since Jamie Lannister. Way to misquote the book.



> Oberyn martell has no feats (beating the overrated Mountain doesn't mean that much Clegane brothers are not that good just look what happened to the Hound against some fodders), no hype and is not even a knight in the first place.



Lol is this a joke? The Mountain is one of the most feared swordsman in Westeros, and no it's not just because of how violent he is. He's 8 feet tall and wields a 6 foot greatsword with one hand. He's cut people in half with a single blow. Multiple people have said that in addition to his freakishly huge size he is an excellent warrior.

The Hound lost to fodder because he was outnumbered, hadn't eaten in a few days, and drunk, and he still won that fight. He only took a wound that latter became infected. The same thing happened to Victarion, who you just tried to say was tier 2, and Drogo who grew up in a warrior society without ever having lost a fight.



> is not even a knight in the first place



Syrio Forel has what is probably the best single combat feat in the series and he's not a knight. Neither was Bronn in the beginning, neither is Mance Rayder, neither is Strong Belwas, and neither was Drogo. On the other hand lets look at a few knights. Compare these to knights like Meryn Trant.



> Sandor was taken down by fodders, Barristan could have taken 5 kingsguard by himself.



Lol and the fact that Barristan said he could do that in a moment of anger makes it true, right?



> It's like this fucking hype around Robb being one of the best commander and on par with Stannis



How is that hype? Robb won every battle against more experienced enemies with better numbers. He might have been a bad king, but he was a good general.


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## Extravlad (Jun 3, 2014)

> Lol Actually what he said was that Tumco Lho was the most talented fighter he had seen since Jamie Lannister. Way to misquote the book.


Doesn't change anything, Barristan knew Oberynn and he still considered Jaime as a better fighter than him.



> Lol is this a joke? The Mountain is one of the most feared swordsman in Westeros, and no it's not just because of how violent he is. He's 8 feet tall and wields a 6 foot greatsword with one hand. He's cut people in half with a single blow. Multiple people have said that in addition to his freakishly huge size he is an excellent warrior.


The mountain is feared because he's tall and big, he's not even close to be as skilled as Jaime, that's why Oberynn stomped him, because the Mountain doesn't know what to do when his opponent doesn't play his game.



> The Hound lost to fodder because he was outnumbered and wasted, and he still won that fight. He only took a wound that latter became infected. The same thing happened to Victarion, who you just tried to say was tier 2, and Drogo who was a leader in a society where advancement is made through physical combat, and never lost a single fight.


Barristan was outnumbered and he could have taken 5 kingsguard easily.
The hound lost to bunch of fodders just accept it. There is a world between Sandor and Barristan.
I don't give a shits about Drogo, he would get killed by almost every decent knight in westeros, because Armors and Swords are too much for him to overcome.



> Syrio Forel has what is probably the best single combat feat in the series and he's not a knight. Neither was Bronn in the beginning, neither is Mance Rayder, and neither was Drogo. On the other hand lets look at a few knights. Compare these to knights like Meryn Trant.


Syrio Forel was the first sword of Braavos, that make him a fighter, a soldier, a swordsman.
Oberyin is just a prince nothing more, he is talented and good, but you cannot compare him with a genius like Jaime.
Also again it's irrelevant because Jaime would kill Syrio without any trouble.



> . Neither was Bronn in the beginning, neither is Mance Rayder, and neither was Drogo. On the other hand lets look at a few knights. Compare these to knights like Meryn Trant.


I'm not comparing Oberyn to Meryn Trant but to Jaime fucking Lannister.

And actually I find your point quite funny since most of people here seems to believe that if you're not from the south and from a good family you cannot be a good fighter (see the guys who deny that Benjen Stark is definitely a toptier fighter) 



> Lol and the fact that Barristan said he could do that in a moment of anger makes it true, right?


The fact that the 5 kingsguard are scared of him makes it true.



> Nice way of straw manning and wanking Stannis at the same time.


I'm not wanking at all Robb Stark is just an overhyped character, people are still mad because he was worse than Jon at swordfighting so they are trying to hype him as a great commander when he basically killed himself because of a stupid love-story.


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## Axl Low (Jun 3, 2014)

jaime has got one hand
he gets wrekt'd


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## Gone (Jun 3, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Doesn't change anything, Barristan knew Oberynn and he still considered Jaime as a better fighter than him.



Show where he said anything like this.



> Barristan was outnumbered and he could have taken 5 kingsguard easily.



Once again, just because Barristan said this when he was angry and embarrassed, does not make it true.



> I don't give a shits about Drogo, he would get killed by almost every decent knight in westeros







> Also again it's irrelevant because Jaime would kill Syrio without any trouble.







> The fact that the 5 kingsguard are scared of him makes it true.



When did it say they were scared? I remember them all laughing at him, and then getting serious and drawing their weapons after he pulled his sword out.



> I'm not wanking at all Robb Stark is just an overhyped character, people are still mad because he was worse than Jon at swordfighting so they are trying to hype him as a great commander when he basically killed himself because of a stupid love-story.



You were wanking by implying that Stannis is in any way head and shoulders above other tacticians in Westeros.

Anyway Robb won every battle against more experienced enemies with more men and better resources. His failings as a king and the fact that he died thanks to thinking with his dick had nothing to do with his ability as a battle commander.

I'm done debating this, I think the safe consensus here is that the match could go either way, and either could win by a slim margin. I'm not responding to your Kingslayer wank anymore.


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## Axl Low (Jun 3, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> *I'm done debating this, I think the safe consensus here is that the match could go either way, and either could win by a slim margin.* I'm not responding to your Kingslayer wank anymore.



joy of joys
someone else who doesnt think hyperbole and wank is what wins matches


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## Extravlad (Jun 3, 2014)

> Show where he said anything like this.


Are you dumb? When he said that Tumco Lho was the most talented fighter he had seen since Jamie Lannister it includes Oberyn and everyone around Jaime's age.



> Once again, just because Barristan said this when he was angry and embarrassed, does not make it true.


Yea yea Barristan is a liar, every statements are false, no one says the truth, Hot Pie is the greatest fighter in westeros and Arthur Dayne is trash.


Drogo would get killed by many fighters in westeros, you don't accept it it's your problem, he wouldn't be able to take on someone like Meryn Trant, just because he has absolutely nothing to hurt him, armors and swords > dothraki.



> When did it say they were scared? I remember them all laughing at him, and then getting serious and drawing their weapons after he pulled his sword out.


No one tried anything against him despite his disrespect towards them.
You really believe that some those cocky guys would have done nothing if that was a low tier swordsman in front of them? They were scared of him because Barristan is the greatest fighter who's not called Jaime Lannister.



> You were wanking by implying that Stannis is in any way head and shoulders above other tacticians in Westeros.


He is in any way head and shoulders above Robb Stark yea.



> Anyway Robb won every battle against more experienced enemies with more men and better resources. His failings as a king and the fact that he died thanks to thinking with his dick had nothing to do with his ability as a battle commander.


He won every battle because he had the right men to help him, Stannis did everything by himself without much help, and was outnumbered almost every time.
He wasn't that good as a battle commander, it's like comparing Hitler and Napoleon, the first one had guys to do the job, the second was just a genius.



> I think the safe consensus here is that the match could go either way,


The match could go eitheir way if Barristan was standing in front of Jaime instead of Oberyn.
Sadly the little prince of Dorne with no real battle experience gets killed by the Kingslayer.



> I'm not responding to your Kingslayer wank anymore.


Kingslayer wank? No one alive in Westeros has a better hype than Jaime Lannister.


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## Gone (Jun 3, 2014)

Idk what it is about blatant gormless stupidity that keeps drawing me back even 5 minutes after I say I'm done responding.



Extravlad said:


> Are you dumb? When he said that Tumco Lho was the most talented fighter he had seen since Jamie Lannister it includes Oberyn and everyone around Jaime's age.



1) You're assuming that Barristan knows every warrior in Westeros.

2) The word "since" precludes any warriors that Barristan saw before Jamie, and Oberyn is almost a decade older.

3) He said that Tumco Lho was the most naturally gifted since Jamie Lannister, not the most skilled since Jamie Lannister.



> Yea yea Barristan is a liar, every statements are false, no one says the truth, Hot Pie is the greatest fighter in westeros and Arthur Dayne is trash.



Do you not know what hyperbole is you fucking idiot? The fact that he might have been talking big out of anger, or to cover his embarrassment does not make him a liar.



> Drogo would get killed by many fighters in westeros, you don't accept it it's your problem, he wouldn't be able to take on someone like Meryn Trant, just because he has absolutely nothing to hurt him, armors and swords > dothraki.





Do you not think they have armor in Essos? The fact that Dothraki don't wear armor themselves doesn't mean they can't deal with armor. Fucking Varys was planning on using them to conquer the seven kingdoms in the name of Viscerys.

You say Drogo couldn't take Meryn Trant and you expect anybody to take anything else you say seriously?



> Kingslayer wank? No one alive in Westeros has a better hype than Jaime Lannister.



Wait, did you seriously just try to use hype as a valid argument?


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## Extravlad (Jun 3, 2014)

> 1) You're assuming that Barristan knows every warrior in Westeros.


He does know Oberyn Martel.



> 2) The word "since" precludes any warriors that Barristan saw before Jamie, and Oberyn is almost a decade older.


Barristan definitely has more respect for Jaime as a fighter.



> Do you not know what hyperbole is you fucking idiot? The fact that he might have been talking big out of anger, or to cover his embarrassment does not make him a liar.


God you are seriously retard what's wrong with you? You don't like the idea of Barristan killing 5 kingsguard by himself because that would make Sandor look like a piece of shit, so you're saying he's talking big out of anger?



> Do you not think they have armor in Essos? The fact that Dothraki don't wear armor themselves doesn't mean they can't deal with armor. Fucking Varys was planning on using them to conquer the seven kingdoms in the name of Viscerys.


Obviously with his khalasar Drogo is not gonna have any problems, there is almost no one in Essos who fights well AND have an armor and a sword.



> You say Drogo couldn't take Meryn Trant and you expect anybody to take anything else you say seriously?


Meryn Trant downplay because he's a bad character, you're really a fucking wanker, overrating the good characters, underrating the bad ones.
Meryn Trant is said to be a good fighter by Jaime himself, of course he can take on Drogo.



> Wait, did you seriously just try to use hype as a valid argument?


If hype is a not a valid argument then we can agree that Aemon Dragonknight,Serwyn of the mirror shield and Gerold Hightower are not that great right?


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 3, 2014)

> Drogo
> _Good character_
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 

Oh God, both of you are dumb. 

On the match
Both are skilled warriors, and Oberyn did wreck Mountain and would have killed him but the idiot ball was too strong to overcome. Sadly 
It can go either way.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 3, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> The match could go eitheir way if Barristan was standing in front of Jaime instead of Oberyn.
> *Sadly the little prince of Dorne with no real battle experience gets killed by the Kingslayer.*



Look at this stupid clown, look at him and laugh.


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## SSMG (Jun 3, 2014)

Didnt George say in an interview or something that Jaime is the most skilled swordsmen in the realm and that he is the most skilled swordsmen in all of fantasy?


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## Axl Low (Jun 3, 2014)

you know
i could have swore spears were meant pierce armor and out range swords

ah well
what do i know about weaponry :33

also this shit needs to be locked
It's an even fight and the jaime wank from one person alone is just ridiculous

the wank is
getting ouy of hand
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 3, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Barristan definitely has more respect for Jaime as a fighter.



No fucking shit.
Barristan is the ideal knight. He might acknowledge Oberyn's skills, but he would never praise him.
Do you even know how a noble knight would regard a poison master?


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## Reddan (Jun 3, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> No fucking shit.
> Barristan is the ideal knight. He might acknowledge Oberyn's skills, but he would never praise him.
> Do you even know how a noble knight would regard a poison master?



Selmy hates Jaime. He despises him as much as anyone. For Selmy to still praise him shows his worth.

Jaime at 15 was holding off one of the most deadliest knights around.


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## αce (Jun 3, 2014)

> Brienne remembered her fight with Jaime Lannister in the woods. It  had been all that she could do to keep his blade at bay. He was weak  from his imprisonment, and chained at the wrists.* No knight in the Seven  Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength, with no  chains to hamper him*. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man  could fight! His maiming had been monstrously cruel. It was one thing to  slay a lion, another to hack his paw off and leave him broken and  bewildered.


Take this for what you will. Gregor Clegane is a knight last I checked. Jaime would style on Clegane just has hard as Oberyn did. The only reason Gregor is so feared is because he's giant, strong and can rip you in half with one hand. 



_He's not skilled,_ he's just strong. He's not very smart either. Look at how Oberyn won. He just capitalized on Gregor's stupidity. The best chance Oberyn has here is using his sword since he's not even comfortable on a spear. If he uses a weapon he's not comfortable on versus Jaime he's going to get curb stomped. He got away with it versus Gregor because the older Clegane brother is an idiot and can't fight anyone with any sort of skill.







Also keep in mind that Oberyn tailored his style _specifically_ to fight against Gregor as he had been wanting to kill him for what must have been several fucking years. Let's not assume his battle against Clegane was improvised from the start. Don't overestimate his intelligence. He's smart but not leagues ahead of Jaime who has pure battle instinct. 







​


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 3, 2014)

Reddan said:


> Selmy hates Jaime. He despises him as much as anyone. For Selmy to still praise him shows his worth.
> 
> Jaime at 15 was holding off one of the most deadliest knights around.




I'm not trying to debunk Jaime, but pointing out why he wouldn't use Oberyn as a comparison unless needed.
One of the reasons Selmy used Jaime as a comparison as often as he did,  was because the guy was next to him for years until just recently.
Oberyn on the other hand was in Dorne or off on one of his adventures. Its obvious why he wouldn't mention him.

Jaimie was always in his memory and served that role better, than a list of people he hasn't seen in years.
its the same reason why he would more likely compare people to Loras rather than to Garlan.


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## Reddan (Jun 3, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> I'm not trying to debunk Jaime, but pointing out why he wouldn't use Oberyn as a comparison unless needed.
> One of the reasons Selmy used Jaime as a comparison as often as he did,  was because the guy was next to him for years until just recently.
> Oberyn on the other hand was in Dorne or off on one of his adventures. Its obvious why he wouldn't mention him.
> 
> ...



in his memory, but someone he hated and considered it a disgrace to serve with. He was aware of Oberyn, who competed in tournaments. Jaime of the show is not Jaime of the book. 

Jaime himself, Selmy and Brienne all consider him the best/most gifted knight of his generation. Loras and the other Kingsguard are still scared of him. Ned considers Jaime the most dangerous knight the Lannisters have. 

With Martin's world no fight is guaranteed, but from the information we have there is not one character at the start of the series that should be considered above Jaime more times than not.


----------



## αce (Jun 3, 2014)

> *With Martin's world no fight is guaranteed*, but from the information we  have there is not one character at the start of the series that should  be considered above Jaime more times than not.



Basically this. You have to rely a lot on reputation and hype here because no one can call the outcome of a GOT fight. Jaime is god tier status with two hands though, that much has been established.


----------



## Gone (Jun 3, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> He does know Oberyn Martel.



When has he ever mentioned seeing him fight? A lot of people knew him or knew of him and were still surprised when they saw him fight the Mountain.

Something else I forgot to mention, Selmy said that Tumco was the most gifted *swordsman* he had seen since Jamie Lannister. Oberyn fights with a spear, so that's another reason he would be precluded from the quote.



> God you are seriously retard what's wrong with you? You don't like the idea of Barristan killing 5 kingsguard by himself because that would make Sandor look like a piece of shit, so you're saying he's talking big out of anger?





Why do you keep bringing up Sandor? I never said a word about him. I said that you cannot use Selmy's boast as a feat. The fact that he said he could kill 5 kingsguard when he was clearly losing his temper does not make it so. The fact that he compared it to slicing cheese or something should make it obvious hyperbole.



> there is almost no one in Essos who fights well AND have an armor and a sword.



There are plenty of places in Essos that use armor, and they're all scared of the Dothraaki.



> Meryn Trant downplay because he's a bad character, you're really a fucking wanker, overrating the good characters, underrating the bad ones.
> Meryn Trant is said to be a good fighter by Jaime himself, of course he can take on Drogo.



I like how you keep trying to play it off like I have a bias towards certain people when you've had Jamie Lannister's dick in your mouth this entire thread. I was the one arguing a week ago that he would take Prime Robert or Rheagar apart. Jamie Lannister is one of my favorite living characters, the fact that I'm arguing against your blatant wank does not mean I'm downplaying because I don't like him.

Meryn Trant is described by everybody as a weakling and a coward. When did Jamie Lannister say he was a good swordsman?

By all means, continue making a retard out of yourself.



SSMG said:


> Didnt George say in an interview or something that Jaime is the most skilled swordsmen in the realm and that he is the most skilled swordsmen in all of fantasy?



He said in one interview that a case could be made that he was one of the best, but that anyone could lose to anyone else on any given day.

He said in another interview that he could beat Aragorn, but I think we all know that this is horse shit.


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 3, 2014)

> There are plenty of places in Essos that use armor, and they're all scared of the Dothraaki.


Because no one can fight the dothraaki alone, one knight with an armor won't take the head of Drogo when he got 10 000 men who follows his orders.



> Meryn Trant is described by everybody as a weakling and a coward. When did Jamie Lannister say he was a good swordsman?


Stop being a fucking retard please, ASOS Chapter 68 Jaime.
Jaime has respect for him as a fighter, but he doesn't like him.



> I have a bias towards certain people when you've had Jamie Lannister's dick in your mouth this entire thread


I don't have Jaime's dick in my mouth, my favorite character is Jon Snow by far, then comes Arya,Stannis and Davos. I don't give a shit about Jaime.



> I was the one arguing a week ago that he would take Prime Robert or Rheagar apart.


And? That doesn't make less biased at all, Rhaegar wasn't a great swordsman, he didn't liked to fight or to train, he was good at riding and decent with a sword, but you can't compare him with Jaime.
As for Robert defeating Rhaegar isn't something special, any kingsguard would have done the same thing at the time (expect Jaime maybe since he was 15)

SSMG speaks the truth.

Oberyn did nothing but defeating Gregor Clegane someone who's only good at killing people with his strength.

How does that makes him close to Jaime Lannister? Saying that Oberyn can beats Jaime or gives him an extreme diff fight, means that Oberyn could do the same thing against Dayne or Prime Selmy which is a fucking joke and disrespect to those fighters

Jaime is known because he's one of the best swordsman that ever lived (and a kingslayer ofc) despite being Tywin's son.
Oberyn isn't known because he's a great fighter in the first place, he's known because he's a prince who has bastards everywhere.
See the difference? Jaime overcame his name, Oberyn didn't.
That makes the difference.

Jaime does not win this fight, he stomps. I wouldn't give Oberyn the edge against any skilled swordsman who aren't stupid enough to be beaten like Gregor.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 3, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Oberyn isn't known because he's a great fighter in the first place, he's known because he's a prince who has bastards everywhere.





			
				A Storm of Swords; Ch. 38 (Tyrion) said:
			
		

> Oberyn Nymeros Martell, Tyrion muttered under his breath as he fell in beside the man. The Red Viper of Dorne. And what in the seven hells am I supposed to do with him?
> 
> He knew the man only by reputation, to be sure . . . but the reputation was fearsome. When he was no more than sixteen, Prince Oberyn had been found abed with the paramour of old Lord Yronwood, a huge man of fierce repute and short temper. A duel ensued, though in view of the prince's youth and high birth, it was only to first blood. Both men took cuts, and honor was satisfied. Yet Prince Oberyn soon recovered, while Lord Yronwood's wounds festered and killed him. Afterward men whispered that Oberyn had fought with a poisoned sword, and ever thereafter friends and foes alike called him the Red Viper.
> 
> That was many years ago, to be sure. The boy of sixteen was a man past forty now, and his legend had grown a deal darker. He had traveled in the Free Cities, leaming the poisoner's trade and perhaps arts darker still, if rumors could be believed. He had studied at the Citadel, going so far as to forge six links of a maester's chain before he grew bored. He had soldiered in the Disputed Lands across the narrow sea, riding with the Second Sons for a time before forming his own company. His tourneys, his battles, his duels, his horses, his carnality . . . it was said that he bedded men and women both, and had begotten bastard girls all over Dorne. The sand snakes, men called his daughters. So far as Tyrion had heard, Prince Oberyn had never fathered a son.


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## justiceseeker (Jun 3, 2014)

> I don't give a shits about Drogo, he would get killed by almost every decent knight in westeros, because Armors and Swords are too much for him to overcome.


but wouldnt Drogo be able to penetrate armor with just using strenght
hes certainly much stronger than failthraki Qotho who got his sword stuck in Jorah`s armor


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 3, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> He said in another interview that he could beat Aragorn, but I think we all know that this is horse shit.



That's not the worse. He said Jaime would beat fucking _Cthulhu_.


----------



## Gone (Jun 3, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Stop being a fucking retard please, ASOS Chapter 68 Jaime.
> Jaime has respect for him as a fighter, but he doesn't like him.



-Calls me an idiot.
-Blatantly pulls a footnote from Wetseros.org and expects that nobody will look up the quote.
-Lists the wrong chapter.

In chapter *67*, when looking over Meryn Trant and Boros Blount he says they are _adequate_ fighters, but that Trant is a slime ball. Referring to him as adequate is hardly the ringing endorsement you've been implying. In AKOK the Hound called Trant a weakling, saying that he was like a toad with stripes pretending to be a tiger. In the same book Trant was also frightened into silence when Tyrion said that he was going to have Shagga kill him if he spoke again.

I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your crap. Louis Cyphre already refuted your bullshit about Oberyn only being known for a prince with a lot of bastards, and your bullshit attempt to downplay his fight against Gregor because the Mountain is somehow a bad swordsman isn't even worth responding to.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 3, 2014)

The Mountain _is_ surprisingly fast for a 8'0" feet tall giant sack of muscles.


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## Reddan (Jun 3, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> That's not the worse. He said Jaime would beat fucking _Cthulhu_.



Jaime beating or even last a minute against Aragorn is ridiculous, but then again Martin is usually widely off base when he talks about LOTR. That being said it shows how highly he rates Jaime. Jaime was the only ASOIAF character that he said could beat their LOTR counterpart.

From things said Prime Selmy and Prime Dayne are the only two swordsman in the last 40 odd years better than Jaime. Selmy and Dayne are equally good and would split the fights 5/5. Dayne though of course would have a better sword and then win most of the time.


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## Gone (Jun 3, 2014)

Reddan said:


> Jaime beating or even last a minute against Aragorn is ridiculous, but then again Martin is usually widely off base when he talks about LOTR. That being said it shows how highly he rates Jaime. Jaime was the only ASOIAF character that he said could beat their LOTR counterpart.



Actually he also said Bronn would beat Legolas in the second interview.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 3, 2014)

Whelp
Martin is getting more old and confused


----------



## SSMG (Jun 3, 2014)

Well if George says it then it should be regarded as canon.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 3, 2014)

U wot m8.
He have no authority over other author works, much less on a versus forum perspective


----------



## Lace (Jun 3, 2014)

Obyern would get the upper hand but would just kinda monologue for a while until Jaime squishes his head.

: (


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## SSMG (Jun 3, 2014)

But he has control in his works and he can make his characters better and or worse than other fictional universes. you dont need to be the author of a character to get a grip on that characters powers and abilities
.... or this entire forum wouldnt be able to be.

and sure if the author of the other series doesnt like his assessment than they can write in there own work that george was wrong whether in interviews or incorpating new feats into their story. but that isnt going to be the case with anything lotr.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 3, 2014)

If Martin claims that some of his characters are stronger than others from different works (character with better feats not less) of fiction, doesn't mean his right, it means he have a hilarious high opinion of his own work.

Which in the end, means jack shit, because he holds no legal authority over someone else work. 
We work with feats, not ramblings from an old man.

He claimed that Jaime would beat _fucking Cthulhu_ for God's sake.

Jaime the Godslayer sounds awesome tho


----------



## SSMG (Jun 3, 2014)

Oh well i didnt know he said jaime could also beat cthulhu.. well nevermind then.. he definitely just tries to buff his characters then.


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## Gone (Jun 3, 2014)

Honestly, given how meticulously Martin studies literature and history, I would be surprised if he was really that ignorant of Tolkien's characters. He was probably just trying to shake things up a bit to avoid having every match fall on the side of Tolkien.

As far as the thing with Cthulu on his blog goes, I think he was just having a bit of fun.


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 4, 2014)

Ryjacork is definitely gay for Oberyn, never saw a such wanker.
If at least he didn't died ike a piece of shit against someone who was already defeated, maybe he could have given a mid difficulty fight to Jaime, but well it just shows that he doesn't have enough experience in a fight.
Jaime stomps, no matter how hard you'll try to deny it this fight is not even close.
Oberyn is Sandor tier he would be taken down by a bunch of fodders.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Ryjacork is definitely gay for Oberyn, never saw a such wanker.
> If at least he didn't died ike a piece of shit against someone who was already defeated, maybe he could have given a mid difficulty fight to Jaime, but well it just shows that he doesn't have enough experience in a fight.
> Jaime stomps, no matter how hard you'll try to deny it this fight is not even close.
> Oberyn is Sandor tier he would be taken down by a bunch of fodders.





"ur gay"
"but Oberyn has no combat experience"
"wanker"
All I see is blub blub blub.

I like how the little cunt try to be wit after being refuted.
Then I realize it take hours to him to come with such well elaborated reply. 10/10 wit.


----------



## Gone (Jun 4, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Oberyn is Sandor tier he would be taken down by a bunch of fodders.



Lol did this retard just imply that the Mountain was fodder level or below?



			
				GRRM said:
			
		

> Well, LeBron James is the greatest active basketball player I suppose so the parallel in Westeros would be who is the greatest active swordsman. You can make a case for Jamie Lannister. You can make a case for The Hound or his brother Ser Gregor [Clegane] or Sir Loras [Tyrell], the Knight of Flowers. These are all first class Knights. Or even Ser Barristan The Bold [Sir Barristan Selmy].
> *These are all guys who are top at their own particular sport, which is swordsmanship and jousting, and all of the combat skills that attend knighthood.*



Right there is word of god saying that the Cleganes and Jamie Lannister are at the very least in the same class. Draw what inferences you will from the fact that Oberyn shat all over Gregor.

EDIT: Nice neg idiot, the abbreviation of you are is spelled you're.


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> Actually he also said Bronn would beat Legolas in the second interview.



Whilst Legolas is inferior to the Uber Elf of the film and Aragorn too, there is no chance of Bronn beating him. Aragorn losing to Jaime probably a bigger stretch than Legolas losing to Bronn.


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## Axl Low (Jun 4, 2014)

is extra still baiting and downplaying and glub glub glubbing?

aight
handing out negs

also thread never mentions this being two handed jaime so

one handed jaime gets rofl stomped

GG lok thred


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 4, 2014)

Its a close match with 50/50 odds. 
Less, if you count Jaimie dying after the duel due to poison.


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## Axl Low (Jun 4, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Its a close match with 50/50 odds.
> Less, if you count Jaimie dying after the duel due to poison.



oh look someone else who thinks its a sensible even fight that isnt wanking
joy of joys


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

Axl Low said:


> oh look someone else who thinks its a sensible even fight that isnt wanking
> joy of joys



It's not wanking to say that Jaime has the advantage. It's a close fight, but I think Jaime has the edge at least 60/40 maybe even going up to70/30.

EDIT

That's not including if Oberyn is using poisoning and the chances Jaime dies afterwards.


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## Axl Low (Jun 4, 2014)

tell me how a one handed jaime has the advantage 
ill stop :33

and being fair Mountain's armor was alot thicker than Jaime's and the mountain is light on his feet
Oberyn wouldnt stop and toy and play with jaime


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

Axl Low said:


> tell me how a one handed jaime has the advantage
> ill stop :33
> 
> and being fair Mountain's armor was alot thicker than Jaime's and the mountain is light on his feet
> Oberyn wouldnt stop and toy and play with jaime



i don't think anyone is talking about one handed Jaime, because he is currently useless. One handed Jaime has shown no signs of even being an average fighter let alone a good fighter. 

The Mountain is not light on his feet. I don't think anyone has said the Mountain was even quick for his size. The Hound is has often said to be very quick, but not the Mountain.

Jaime on the other hand is known for being not only highly skilled, but also very quick. Jaime usually also has great stamina and would not tire as quickly as the Mountain.


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## Axl Low (Jun 4, 2014)

Reddan said:


> i don't think anyone is talking about one handed Jaime, because he is currently useless. One handed Jaime has shown no signs of even being an average fighter let alone a good fighter.
> 
> The Mountain is not light on his feet. I don't think anyone has said the Mountain was even quick for his size. The Hound is has often said to be very quick, but not the Mountain.
> 
> Jaime on the other hand is known for being not only highly skilled, but also very quick. Jaime usually also has great stamina and would not tire as quickly as the Mountain.



poison can slow you down
if it a SnS jaime he will get a minor advantage


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## Reddan (Jun 4, 2014)

Axl Low said:


> poison can slow you down
> if it a SnS jaime he will get a minor advantage



True and if Oberyn is ready and using a poison that can slow the opponent down then I would give him the edge.


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## Axl Low (Jun 4, 2014)

it's why it's an even fight 

seriously
does extra use those hands to hug his own mother?
too much wanking


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## Extravlad (Jun 4, 2014)

Reddan is the only one with a brain there.



> Lol did this retard just imply that the Mountain was fodder level or below?


The moutain is a fucking one dimensional fighter, he cannot do anything against someone who fights like Oberyn, because he isn't a genius like Jaime, he's just a tall guy extremely strong who cut heads with his big sword.

His fight against Oberyn just shows that Gregor is all about strength and isn't that skilled, it also shows that Oberyn is stupid as hell and doesn't have a lot of experience in fighting, that's why he got killed by a piece of shit after getting caught off-guard.



> "but Oberyn has no combat experience


He has no combat experience, or he's the most stupid character ever created, i'm ok with both options, but his death was just pathetic.



> Right there is word of god saying that the Cleganes and Jamie Lannister are at the very least in the same class. Draw what inferences you will from the fact that Oberyn shat all over Gregor.


No they are you're overreacting  and taking this statement out of context.
Martin said that the Cleganes and Loras are extremely skilled, and they are if you compare them to most of the knights in westeros.
But that doesn't mean shit in this case, both Sandor and Gregor are nowhere close to Jaime in terms of hype, they don't get as much credit, and we already saw their limits.

It's hard to debate with someone deluded like you who seems to truly believe that a child like Loras could go toe to toe with Jaime, when he's not even the best swordsman in his family.

Anyways Oberyn is overrated, he did ok against a one dimensional fighter who's too stupid to adapt correctly, won't happen against a genius like Jaime.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> He has no combat experience, or he's the most stupid character ever created, i'm ok with both options, but his death was just pathetic.



> posted a long and detailed quote explaining that Oberyn is a skilled and famous warrior
> "He has no combat experience"
Lord have mercy

Or you know, he had a moment of stupidity because he thirst for *vengeance* was too high to overcome.
He sounds almost like a normal human with flaws and all those pesky things.

At this point, you are wanking Jaime so hard that I'm surprised you haven't turned into his right hand yet.


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 4, 2014)

> Or you know, he had a moment of stupidity because he thirst for vengeance was too high to overcome.


Yea that's what i'm saying he has no combat experience or he's just stupid.
You DON'T lose your cool in a situation where your enemy is still able to kill you without any trouble.
That was stupid from Oberyn, or he just didn't realized that the Mountain was still able to kill him, in both case, my point still stand, Oberyn sucks.



> > posted a long and detailed quote explaining that Oberyn is a skilled and famous warrior


And? Of course he is skilled and famous,still that doesn't make him close to Jaime's lvl, Loras is more famous than him as a warrior and he's still weaker than his brother who's most likely weaker than Jaime as well



> At this point, you are wanking Jaime so hard that I'm surprised you haven't turned into his right hand yet.


No i'm not wanking Jaime at all, because I think Barristan can do the same thing to Oberyn (killing him with low difficult) and it would goes the same way if Dayne was still alive.
You are wanking Oberyn and overestimating him just because you like the character.


You can compare Jaime to Selmy and Dayne, not to the Clegagne brothers and Oberyn.

Jaime is more talented than Oberyn.
Jaime had a better training than Oberyn.
Jaime has more experience than Oberyn.
Jaime is younger than Oberyn.

There is no fucking way he's losing if they are both fighting at their best.


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## Axl Low (Jun 4, 2014)

Oberyn Martell vs Jaime... 	06-04-2014 12:49 PM 	Extravlad 	Learn to write correctly piece of shit.


revenge neg

here let me write correctly

piece of shit.

there you go
happy now? 


> Jaime is more talented than Oberyn.
> Jaime had a better training than Oberyn.
> Jaime has more experience than Oberyn.
> Jaime is younger than Oberyn.



Jaime is more wanked than Oberyn.
Jaime has more wank than Oberyn.


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## Axl Low (Jun 4, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Reddan is the only one with a brain there.



really because i've been saying things that he has and you ignore them

lol

keep crying


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

You have a great ability to miss the point, entirely.


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 4, 2014)

You have a great ability to deny the facts.
If you can't answer because you're wrong that's not really my problem.
As I said, talent,training,experience,physical stats, everything is on Jaime side.

Maybe you believe in miracle, but I don't. Oberyn can't win.


----------



## Gone (Jun 4, 2014)

-Dennies a quote where Martin says the Cleganes are in the same class as the Kingslayer.
-Ignores the book exerpt that proves Oberyn is a known and skilled fighter.
-Accuses other people of denying facts.

Aldo did this fucking clown just say that the Cleganes don't have hype? The Hound was recognized all the way in the remote villages outside of the Vale. The Mountain may be the most universally feared individual in Martin's entire series.

This was funny at first, but now it's just getting awkward and sad. This thread needs to be locked and Extravkad needs to be gagged.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

The facts is that Oberyn wrecked one of the most fearsome warriors in Westeros and you are trying to downplay it like a petulant child.
But have fun being Jaime's bitch.


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 4, 2014)

> -Dennies a quote where Martin says the Cleganes are in the same class as the Kingslayer.


He never said that, feel free to takes it out of context.



> -Ignores the book exerpt that proves Oberyn is a known and skilled fighter.


Wow he's skilled and famous, how that makes him better than the best swordsman of his generation?



> Aldo did this fucking clown just say that the Cleganes don't have hype? The Hound was recognized all the way in the remote villages outside of the Vale. The Mountain may be the most universally feared individual in Martin's entire series.


You're the fucking clown and it seem like you don't even read my messages, I said that their hype is SHIT compared to Jaime's, they are feared by fodders, and respected as great fighters but NEVER someone like Barristan praised them as genius, or incredible swordsmen like he did with Jaime.



> This was funny at first, but now it's just getting awkward and sad. This thread needs to be locked and Extravkad needs to be gagged.


Or maybe you should stop trying to talk about things you don't understand, and just read the books for the story, because you clearly doesn't understand how the powerscaling works and what hype means.



> The facts is that Oberyn wrecked one of the most fearsome warriors in Westeros and you are trying to downplay it like a petulant child.


The fact is that Oberyn wrecked the Mountain because he knew how to fight against him, the Mountain is a one dimensional swordsman, who can only fight 1 way.
You are overhyping him and refuses to accept the truth.
Jaime is a much better swordsman than Gregor, Gregor closes the gap by having the edge in strength, but it's still not enough to rates him as high as Jaime.



> But have fun being Jaime's bitch.


Well I would like to say the same thing about you and Oberyn, but he's dead because of his own stupidity and cockiness.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 4, 2014)

Seems Jaime doesn't need a right hand to stroke his dick, with Extravlad here to help him out.


----------



## Gone (Jun 4, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Oberyn, but I just remembered that he's dead because of his own stupidity and cockiness.



At least he didn't get beat by a girl like your boy Jamie.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

To be fair, Brianne is pretty legit 
That's nothing to be ashamed of.


----------



## Gone (Jun 4, 2014)

Louis Cyphre said:


> To be fair, Brianne is pretty legit
> That's nothing to be ashamed of.



That is true. I'll admit she's more of a man than I'll ever be.


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 4, 2014)

Jaime losing to Brienne with his hands tied after 1 year sitting in his own shit without eating correctly and practicing.

Yea legit.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 4, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> That is true. I'll admit she's more of a man than I'll ever be.




You must spread some Reputation before . . .


----------



## Alucardemi (Jun 4, 2014)

I actually do adore Oberyn, but I do pretty much think that Jaime would definitely take it more often than not.

Too much hype, too much feats to his name.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> I actually do adore Oberyn, but I do pretty much think that Jaime would definitely take it more often than not.
> 
> Too much hype, too much feats to his name.



Like most people with brains are saying "_it can go either way_".


----------



## Alucardemi (Jun 4, 2014)

A great fight either way, to be sure, but the mood in this thread has gone too sour for me to want to debate it, unfortunately.


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 4, 2014)

It can go eitheir way would mean that Oberyn is on par with Selmy and Dayne which is a joke considering that he's not even a warrior in the first place but a prince and doesn't dedicate his life to be the best like Jaime/Selmy/Dayne.


----------



## Gone (Jun 4, 2014)

EDIT: Actually, fuck it, I'm done here.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 4, 2014)

Loling at the fact you keep bringing up the fact he is a prince of Dorne.
Its not like Louis posted a quote, which shows the life he led was nothing like that of a normal prince.
Oh, wait. That''s exactly what Louis did.


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 4, 2014)

I don't care about his life.
The only prince great prince fighter was Aemon Dragonknight, others were terrible or good but not incredible (Rhaegar) 

The idea of someone not dedicating his life to be the best being as strong as Jaime Lannister who has been training since he's a child to be like his idol Arthur Dayne is extremely stupid.


----------



## Axl Low (Jun 4, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> It can go eitheir way would mean that Oberyn is on par with Selmy and Dayne which is a joke considering that he's not even a warrior in the first place but a prince and doesn't dedicate his life to be the best like Jaime/Selmy/Dayne.



please just find the nearest fire and die in it

jfc 
you ignore
excepts, facts, and the opinions of peopel who know the same or better than you

0/10 troll elsewhere

mods lock this shit. 
no point in debating


----------



## Ramius (Jun 4, 2014)

Would you consider changing your username to "Extrafag"? This would serve as some sort of warning for somebody who's about to waste his time getting into an argument with you


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## Extravlad (Jun 4, 2014)

> please just find the nearest fire and die in it


This is what someone who don't know what to answer would said.


----------



## Alucardemi (Jun 4, 2014)

I didn't know you could make comments of that nature in this forum(encouraging others to kill themselves, even in jest). 

Huh. I'll have to keep that in mind. Seriously, though. Thread has run its course. Its just a vs forum, how can things get so heated?


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Jun 4, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> I didn't know you could make comments of that nature in this forum(encouraging others to kill themselves, even in jest).
> 
> Huh. I'll have to keep that in mind. Seriously, though. Thread has run its course. Its just a vs forum, how can things get so heated?


Wheredoyouthinkyouare.jpg
This is nothing. Early years were much "worse", actually.
Vs debate is serious business


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Jun 4, 2014)

Isn't it obvious that Oberyn didn't get as much hype as Jaime because he didn't really have much to do with the plot, and because Dorne is so out of the way?


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 5, 2014)

All the Martell's are great.
Even Quentyn in his naivety.


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## Gone (Jun 5, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> All the Martell's are great.
> Even Quentyn in his naivety.



Too bad Stannis will have to put them all to the sword with the rest of the usurpers when he comes marching south with his army of Others...


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## Extravlad (Jun 5, 2014)

Stannis is an usuper as well.
He's gonna feel bad after Jon's resurrection as Azor Ahai.


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## The Bloody Nine (Jun 5, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> There is a world between Jaime/Barristan and fighters like Oberynn/Sandor. Sandor was taken down by fodders, Barristan could have taken 5 kingsguard by himself.



LMAO this is retarded. Sandor is easily top 5 in Westeros. If i was standing for a trial by combat and i had to pick someone to beat Prim Jaime, it would be the Hound. If you managaed to miss all that while reading the books then i don't know what to tell you. 



Ryjacork said:


> Right there is word of god saying that the Cleganes and Jamie Lannister are at the very least in the same class. Draw what inferences you will from the fact that Oberyn shat all over Gregor.



And then later on Martin would draw a parallel between Loras/Garlan  and Eli/Peyton Manning as a very talented guy with an even more talented brother. So clearly not at the top of their game, just renowned. 


But for all that i kinda agree that i think Jaime vs Oberyn would be massively in Jaime's favour. Basically Jaime does the same things Oberyn does only he does them better and his fighting style seems to counter the lone spear man. And with Oberyn's light armour Jaime can finish the fight fast; long before the poison starts to slow him down.  I put it something like 80/20 in Jaime's favour.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 6, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> You can put him tier 3 I don't give a shit about that.
> My point still stands, Jaime kills Oberyn with no difficulty, he's the superior fighter by far.
> 
> Oberyn is the most overrated character *after Sandor Clegane*



The joke here is that you're assuming your lack of reading comprehension or possibly your own personal bias means the book is wrong. The book establishes

Sandor as matching Gregor a physical powerhouse and skilled fighter
Sandor while drunk still fighting some of Gregor's men with some help via Arya
Several characters in universe being scared of fighting Sandor
Sandor with a fear of fire still beating Berric
etc

Even Jamie the guy you claimed is a world above Sandor, genuinely is indimidated by his fighting skills so they are atleast comparable. Even if Jamie is better, it's not a curbstomp.



> It's like this fucking hype around Robb being one of the best commander and on par with Stannis



Robb is one of the best commanders, when the book establishes him as outsmarting Tywin and never losing on the battle field. If not for Edmure's screw up he arguably could have beaten Tywin but he should have informed Edmure and variables can screw the best plans in war. He did give a very detailed plan on how he'd take back the North. 

He's not Stannis or Tywin or possibly Tarly but he's top 10 or top 20. All of those are more experienced and in Tywin's case more ruthless and manipulative as Red Wedding shows, Tywin clearly feared Stannis more in the books(GOT basically is people being worried about Stannis's move due to his badassery as a general). He's 15 or 16 and made Tywin regret underestimating him. Tywin was forced to pull out a big plan to take down Robb, Red Wedding was unheard of because no one expected the rules of gods/hospitality to be violated in Westeros.

EDIT It's clear from your other posts that you live in your own world and don't want to accept what's in the books.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 6, 2014)

Oh and Oberyn was dueling over women at age 16, has entered many tournaments and his fight with the Mountain(even going with him injured somewhat) is proof enough of his fighting quality. He's one of those guys who appeared in tourneys across the world and has earned a fearsome reputation due to his fighting skills and poisoned weapons.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 6, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Oh and Oberyn was dueling over women at age 16, has entered many tournaments and his fight with the Mountain(even going with him injured somewhat) is proof enough of his fighting quality. He's one of those guys who appeared in tourneys across the world and has earned a fearsome reputation due to his fighting skills and poisoned weapons.



I've posted a quote from A Storm of Swords that basically sums up this, but he went in full denial mod and resorted into senseless tl;dr without any worth content.

His dream is to become Jamie's new right hand.


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## Extravlad (Jun 6, 2014)

Sandor Clegane died against 3 fodders.
Sandor Clegane has no feats against a good fighter (and yes Beric sucks he's average not good).
You guys are deluded because you likes the character, he's nowhere close to be as good as Barristan or Jaime.



> LMAO this is retarded. Sandor is easily top 5 in Westeros. If i was standing for a trial by combat and i had to pick someone to beat Prim Jaime, it would be the Hound. If you managaed to miss all that while reading the books then i don't know what to tell you.


No he is not. Jaime,Barristan,Garlan,Victarion,Gregor,Oberyn,Loras,Aero Hotah.
There is some others who can possibly beats him as well but we lack of information (Mance Rayder is a beast).
Please don't tell I missed things when you are the one comparing someone who lost to a bunch of fodders like Polliver and the Tickler with the Jaime Lannister.
Especially when Jaime said himself that he could beats the Clegane Brothers if he had to fight against them.



> Sandor while drunk still fighting some of Gregor's men with some help via Arya


Yea and look what happened to him.



> Even Jamie the guy you claimed is a world above Sandor, genuinely is indimidated by his fighting skills so they are atleast comparable. Even if Jamie is better, it's not a curbstomp.


It's 100% wrong, Jaime stated that the Clegane brothers are stronger than him, but he was confident that he could beats both of them with skill and speed.
Sandor is nowhere close to Jaime in skill.



> Robb is one of the best commanders, when the book establishes him as outsmarting Tywin and never losing on the battle field. If not for Edmure's screw up he arguably could have beaten Tywin but he should have informed Edmure and variables can screw the best plans in war. He did give a very detailed plan on how he'd take back the North.


Robb outsmarted Tywin because he has the whole north behind him to teach him everything, do you really think that a brat like him did everything alone? A good commander doesn't follow his dick, Robb is overrated as hell by the fans, because he's good at absolutely nothing.



> He's not Stannis or Tywin or possibly Tarly but he's top 10 or top 20


He's definitely top 20 I agree, but you have to look at the big picture, most of the commanders doesn't have the whole north behind them, Stannis did as good as Robb if not better with a much worse army.



> EDIT It's clear from your other posts that you live in your own world and don't want to accept what's in the books.


I can says the same thing about you, you've overhyped someone who lost to a bunch fodders comparing him to Jaime who's as good as Selmy and Selmy could have taken 5 kingsguard by himself.

Jaime at the start of the book can defeats anyone alive in the ASOIAFverse, the only one possibly better than him was Selmy and it's still an unknown I would gives it 55/45 to Jaime because of Selmy is old.



> Oh and Oberyn was dueling over women at age 16


Oberyn at age 16 was dueling over women against shitty Edgard Ferboys.
Jon Snow at age 16 was dueling over his life.
Jaime at age 15 was also dueling over his life.
Absolutely not impressed.


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## Gone (Jun 6, 2014)

Wait... Does it think that Tywin and Stannis don't also have military advisors that they consult with on strategy?


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## Extravlad (Jun 6, 2014)

> Wait... Does it think that Tywin and Stannis don't also have military advisors that they consult with on strategy?


You really think that fucking Tywin Lannister will ask anyone how to do a war?


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## Gone (Jun 6, 2014)

Something else I notice this clown keeps saying is that the Hound "lost" to fodder. He didn't lose that fight, he killed them and then later one of his injuries became infected.


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## Extravlad (Jun 6, 2014)

> Something else I notice this clown keeps saying is that the Hound "lost" to fodder. He didn't lose that fight, he killed them and then later one of his injuries became infected.


Because Arya saved his ass.
He would have been dead without her.
He died  because of a bunch of fodders just deal with it.

And obviously you're avoiding what I said about Jon/Jaime having way more impressive feats than Oberyn at the same age.


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## Darth Niggatron (Jun 6, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> You really think that fucking Tywin Lannister will ask anyone how to do a war?


You know there's something called a war council, right? Even the greatest generals don't decide on tactics on their own.

You know what, man, just shut the fuck up.
You've been spouting ass-shit for a while now.
What's next? Jon>Oberyn? It's guys like you that give we Jon fans a bad name.


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## Extravlad (Jun 6, 2014)

> What next? Jon>Oberyn? It's guys like you that give we Jon fans a bad name.


When did I says that Jon Snow is better than oberyn?
Stop smoking and read my messages maybe? I said that Jon at the same age did MORE than Oberyn, so why you guys keep talking about Oberyn fighting in a trial at 16? It's not impressivr at all.

And yea i'm 100% sure that Jon Snow has the talent to become a very good swordsman, Martin himself said that Jon is the "classic hero" of a fantasy story, he's just too young at the moment.


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## Darth Niggatron (Jun 6, 2014)

Wait, the clown thinks Sandor is dead?
Extrafag hasn't read ASoIaF confirmed.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 6, 2014)

Sandor died to no fodder. He was drunk and neither he nor Arya had much food prior to that. He still showed he could take on Gregor's men with some help from Arya. Where is it stated Sandor is dead?The only thing we have is Biter with his helmet but it's not like that is proof of death in this series.



> I said that Jon at the same age did MORE than Oberyn,



No he did'nt but then you seem to enjoy making shit up. Oberyn was a highly skilled fighter in his teens, he fought across pretty much everyone and entered tournaments. Nevermind we don't much on Oberyn's life at age 15-16 while Jon has'nt fought in any Tourneys or beaten anyone worth a damn. 

Qhorin Halfhand as Jon makes clear could crush him like a fly despite his Valyrian sword as he explains to Sam in AFFC in his office, he lost because he wanted too and due to Ghost a freakin Direwolf. Qhorin is admittingly an unquantifiable but don't see him anywhere like Gregor. Even Donal Noye is despite being an old blacksmith and one handed stronger than Jon by a lot. Gregor is near 8 feet tall, can cut a horse casually, wield a greatsword like a knife, described by Bronn as faster than he should be and one of the most feared men in Westeros and Oberyn gave him a fight.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 6, 2014)

Next you'll say Sam Tarly>Oberyn considering how much you hate Oberyn and make shit up.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jun 6, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Next you'll say Sam Tarly>Oberyn considering how much you hate Oberyn and make shit up.


Are you doubting the skills of Sam the Slayer? 
Ironically, Sam's "feat" is better than anything Jaime ever did.


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## Extravlad (Jun 6, 2014)

> No he did'nt but then you seem to enjoy making shit up. Oberyn is was a highly skilled fighter in his teens, he fought across pretty much everyone and entered tournaments. Nevermind we don't much on Oberyn's life at age 15-16 while Jon has'nt fought in any Tourneys or beaten anyone worth a damn.


Yes he did, and here we go let's wank the warrior from the south and downplay the north, and it's seems pretty obvious that someone like Benjen Stark is as good as great fighters like Sandor or Oberyn.
Jon is without a doubt the most underrated character, the kid is always practicing and not only against fodders, Iron Emett is pretty decent he's said to be the pride Eastwatch for a reason.
Anyways : Tourney are shits and doesn't mean anything, especially when most of the time it comes to riding, look at Rhaegar (another overrated character) and what Robert did to him in an real battle.



> Qhorin Halfhand as Jon makes clear could crush him like a fly despite his Valyrian sword as he explains to Sam in AFFC in his office.


Qhorin Halfhand would crush a 16 years old Oberyn as well.



> Qhorin is admittingly an unquantifiable but don't see him anywhere like Gregor.


I agree but why are you talking about Gregor Clegane? Oberyn wasn't 16 years old when he took on the mountain.


Jon Snow is still a kid i'm absolutely not comparing him with adult Oberyn, but considering what he accomplished at his age then yea, in 4 or 5 years, Jon Snow could be one of the best swordsman in westeros, he has the sword to do it, he was impressive when he trained against Iron Emmett, and he's most likely Azor Ahai.



> Next you'll say Sam Tarly>Oberyn considering how much you hate Oberyn and make shit up.


I don't hate Oberyn, he's an interesting character, but I do think he's overrated and shouldn't be compared to Jaime who's the most skilled fighter of his generation.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 6, 2014)

How can someone who has no noteworthy feats be underrated?Yes he's practicing but does that mean Oberyn and others are'nt practicing too?I'm not wanking the south, nevermind that Dorne is practically separate to the South and only loyal in name. Jon killing wildings who are featless and lacking discipline is'nt enough, Jon is mostly unquantifiable and he's well below Qhorin whose mostly unquantifiable outside being able to stomp Jon. 



> Yes he did, and here we go let's wank the warrior from the south and downplay the north, and it's seems pretty obvious that someone like Benjen Stark is as good as great fighters like Sandor or Oberyn.



Benjen Stark is featless and lacking hype.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 6, 2014)

Jon may be a good fighter and have potential but it's hard to say since he fights mostly unquantifiables and is well below an experienced Ranger like Qhorin or former ranger in Mance Rayder even with a Valyrian sword/magic sword. He's not really in the south where someone like Jamie or Selmy could have observed his skill and commented. He's good compared to the Night's Watch due to having some training before and the fact he does train hard but the NW is a shadow of a shadow so to speak.

At this point I'm convinced your just making shit up, can't provide any actual evidence and very biased. Oberyn is a man with 20+ years or so fighting experience in tourneys and across the world with a fearsome reputation both due to skill and his use of poisons plus the Gregor feat aka Mister pseudo giant proves you wrong on his lack of skill.


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## Gone (Jun 6, 2014)

After reading the battle for the Wall I was actually impressed with Jon as a strategist, certainly more so than as a warrior thus far.

And lets not downplay Sam, he killed an Other and he may or may not be a wizard


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## Matta Clatta (Jun 6, 2014)

Oberyn easily imo the spear is a gamebreaker
The Mountain would annihilate Jaime just like he kills all standard knights in the setting. Jaime is a hothead who doesn't really think that much while fighting. Oberyn is always out to exploit weaknesses and then there's the poison


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## The Bloody Nine (Jun 6, 2014)

Well i actually lol'd so you have that going for you at least. 



Extravlad said:


> Beric sucks he's average not good.



Actually Beric was a close runner up in the grand melee - that's how him and Thyros of Myr became friends. He's a hell of a lot better then average. 



Extravlad said:


> Victarion,.



This is where i lol'd. Vic isn't even top 3 in the Iron Isle's let alone Westeros, last generation it was Cleftjaw who says it is now Andrik the Unsmiling with Nate the Barbar and Carl?Sarl?Jarl? the Maid guy following close behind. 



Extravlad said:


> Especially when Jaime said himself that he could beats the Clegane Brothers if he had to fight against them.
> .



He thinks that yes but then in an other of his interior monologues he said that Strongboar should fear the Hound. Selmy only said Jaime was the best natural swordsman, not the best period - someone who is much stronger and almost as fast like the Hound is could honestly be the best in Westeros right now. 

The Hound was Cerscei bodyguard and then the Crown Prince's your crazy if you think Jaime, Robert or Tywin didn't vet him thoroughly, and he did all this without having the honour of being a knight but purely based on combat skill. He is also taller and more powerful then Ser Duncan the Tall which isn't something alot of people notice. Its just that every fight we have seen of him on screen he has been at a significant disadvantage; there would be no other way to make a fight of it.


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## Extravlad (Jun 6, 2014)

> Benjen Stark is featless and lacking hype.


Benjen Stark is the first ranger, it's actually a decent hype, and he's probably the best warrior out of the 3 Stark brothers (Brandon,Ned,Benjen), if Ned is an average swordsman, then Brandon is at least a good one (since he's confirmed better than Ned).

It's stupid to actually believe that no one at the wall is good enough to compete with the likes of Sandor/Oberyn/Loras, there should be at least 1 or 2 fighters able to do it, and Benjen Stark is the best choice we have for obvious reasons.




> and is well below an experienced Ranger like Qhorin or former ranger in Mance Rayder


Before saying this you should actually think about it, was Oberyn Martell as strong as Qhorin or Mance Rayder at the 16 years old? I don't think so.




> even with a Valyrian sword/magic sword


Jon Snow didn't used his Valyrian sword against Mance Rayder,he also didn't know that Mance Rayce was his opponent.



> Oberyn is a man with 20+ years or so fighting experience in tourneys and across the world with a fearsome reputation


Oberyn is having sex more than he does fight, he's less talented than Jaime and less dedicated than him



> plus the Gregor feat aka Mister pseudo giant proves you wrong on his lack of skill.


Winning a fight against a one dimensional fighter bad at adapting and who cannot do anything but try to smash you with his strength isn't proving anything.
His strategy wouldn't work against Jaime, you should know it.



> The Mountain would annihilate Jaime just like he kills all standard knights in the setting.


Jaime could have beaten the Mountain (and Sandor) according to himself.



> Actually Beric was a close runner up in the grand melee - that's how him and Thyros of Myr became friends. He's a hell of a lot better then average.


Look what Gregor did to him, Beric might be better than average, but he's by no mean a great swordsman.



> This is where i lol'd. Vic isn't even top 3 in the Iron Isle's let alone Westeros, last generation it was Cleftjaw who says it is now Andrik the Unsmiling with Nate the Barbar the Maid guy following close behind.


Fair enough, I don't remember about that but I'll believe you then.



> He thinks that yes but then in an other of his interior monologues he said that Strongboar should fear the Hound. Selmy only said Jaime was the best natural swordsman, not the best period - someone who is much stronger and almost as fast like the Hound is could honestly be the best in Westeros right now.


His interior monologues are actually quite good and objective, Jaime admitted that many men are stronger than him, and he also praised both Selmy and Dayne as greater knights than him based on their feats.

Sandor,Loras,Oberyn,Gregor,Garlan are great fighters.
Jaime,Selmy,Dayne,Aemon are genius.


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## The Bloody Nine (Jun 6, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Jon may be a good fighter and have potential but it's hard to say since he fights mostly unquantifiables and is well below an experienced Ranger like Qhorin or former ranger in Mance Rayder even with a Valyrian sword/magic sword. He's not really in the south where someone like Jamie or Selmy could have observed his skill and commented. He's good compared to the Night's Watch due to having some training before and the fact he does train hard but the NW is a shadow of a shadow so to speak.
> .





I think your giving Jon's self-depreciating thoughts way too much credit. Remember he fought well enough to convince the Wildings that he could beat Qhorin and that was before he seriously started training with the sword. Also he beat that guy who was considered the best at the wall fair and square. IMO Jon is already well above an average swordsman. But your right  that it is hard to judge because Jon is playing in the little leagues while people like Loras are playing in the NBA.


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## Gone (Jun 6, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> according to himself.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 6, 2014)

Also Tywin has his brother Kevan, who gives him advice regarding difficult decisions.


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## Alucardemi (Jun 6, 2014)

The Bloody Nine said:


> but then in another of his interior monologues he said that Strongboar should fear the Hound.




Well, shouldn't he? Jaime gave reasons for that. He recalled that both are big and strong, but that Sandor was noticeably faster than Strongboar and fought with a savagery strongboar could not match.
I don't know, but I'm pretty sure I'd hinge my bets on Sandor over Crakehall anyday. So I'm not quite sure where you were going with that statement.

Likewise, the reason for which Jaime gave to beat stronger and bigger opponents was speed and skill; as has he has pretty much the same basic kit as Barristan when it comes to swordsmanship, even though he was taught by Dayne, something you see put to good effect against Brienne, who is freakishly strong.


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## Gone (Jun 6, 2014)

Remember Brienne was wounded during her fight with Jamie, she had an arrow in her back. She was also trying not to kill or seriously injure him, while he was pretty much fighting her with lethal intent. I don't think she had as big of a situational advantage over him as people tend to imply.


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## Alucardemi (Jun 6, 2014)

And the Mountain was suffering from a wound in his fight against Oberyn. I suppose Oberyn's feat is now greatly diminished? Not really. No-one made mention of it slowing him down any, so I doubt that it did any significant difference.

Jaime even made mention that she didn't look to be slowed down by it. Since GRRM went out of his way to highlight that, I don't think she was being slowed down any.

So yes, what Jaime did against Brienne was seriously impressive, considering her helm-splitting feat and his condition.

And I think its meant to highlight exactly what Jaime says; with speed and skill, even the strongest could fall.


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## Extravlad (Jun 6, 2014)

And Jaime had his hands tied.
He was also pretty rusty and nowhere his best, he didn't practiced since 1 year, and I highly doubt that he was eating correctly as a prisoner..


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## Alucardemi (Jun 6, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Also Tywin has his brother Kevan, who gives him advice regarding difficult decisions.




People underestimate Kevan because he's such a non-entity in the show, but he's already showed his brilliance in the books when Varys said that he could potentially remedy everything that Cersei fucks-up.

And that's a genuinely impressive leadership feat.


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## Gone (Jun 6, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> And the Mountain was suffering from a wound in his fight against Oberyn. I suppose Oberyn's feat is now greatly diminished? Not really. No-one made mention of it slowing him down any, so I doubt that it did any significant difference.



Did I say it diminished anything? I never considered that fight to be a Jamie feat so much as a Brienne feat. And there's a difference between recovering from an injury sustained weeks, to months earlier, and fighting less than 2 minutes after sustaining an injury. The Oberyn/Mountain fight is also different because Oberyn shat all over Gregor. Had it been an extremely close fight until the end, or had the Mountain maintained an advantage the entire time, then his being injured would be of more significance.

The fact that Brienne had disadvantages as well doesn't diminish the fight on Jamie's end, since he also wasn't at 100%. But you're wrong to say that it didn't have any significant impact. Honestly the fact that she was trying to avoid hurting him is just as significant as an injury. People always bring up the fact that Jamie had hinderances in that fight, and I just wanted to point out that Brienne did as well.


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## Alucardemi (Jun 6, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> And there's a difference between recovering from an injury sustained weeks, to months earlier, and fighting less than 2 minutes after sustaining an injury.



Actually, in Brienne's case, that might even be alot better.

If you let yourself get a grudging wound in a fight, it will take you longer to ignore it due to the fact that the adrenaline rush you would receive to douse the pain of the wound in instant battle would take longer to kick-in on his fight against Oberyn.

That's probably why Jaime said she wasn't slowed down any. Adrenaline can do wonders with people.



Ryjacork said:


> The Oberyn/Mountain fight is also different because Oberyn shat all over Gregor. Had it been an extremely close fight until the end, or had the Mountain maintained an advantage the entire time, then his being injured would be more of a factor.



You think it's unwieldly to assume that the wound wasn't slowing Gregor enough to the point where it was the reason Oberyn was too fast for him?

Alright, I agree. I have made the same statement on my post.

But at the same time, I reserve the same assumption for the Brienne fight with how Jaime was able to do the things that he did against her, for reasons I've already stated above.



Ryjacork said:


> Honestly the fact that she was trying to avoid hurting him is just as significant as an injury



Sure. I don't actually disagree with any of that from an ultimately who would win a fight perspective, but I think you missed the thesis of my post. The thesis of my post was that Jaime is in a state where he is incredibly less physically imposing than Brienne, and is this able to do this;


*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				ASOS said:
			
		

> As the blade slid from the scabbard, he was already pivoting, bringing the sword around and up in a swift
> deadly arc. Steel met steel with a ringing, bone-jarring clang. Somehow Brienne had gotten her
> own blade out in time. Jaime laughed. “Very good, wench.”
> “Give me the sword, Kingslayer.”
> ...






What I was drawing attention to, in particular, are passages such as;



> High, low, overhand, he rained down steel upon her. Left, right, backslash, swinging so hard
> that sparks flew when the swords came together, upswing, sideslash, overhand, always attacking,
> moving into her, step and slide, strike and step, step and strike, hacking, slashing, faster, faster,
> faster...





> Jaime could not have said how long he pressed the attack. It might have been minutes or it
> might have been hours; time slept when swords woke. He drove her away from his cousin’s
> corpse, drove her across the road, drove her into the trees. She stumbled once on a root she never
> saw, and for a moment he thought she was done, but she went to one knee instead of falling, and
> ...





> Grunting, she came at him, blade whirling, and suddenly it was Jaime struggling to keep steel
> from skin. One of her slashes raked across his brow, and blood ran down into his right eye. The
> Others take her, and Riverrun as well! His skills had gone to rust and rot in that bloody dungeon,
> and the chains were no great help either. His eye closed, his shoulders were going numb from the
> ...



Take note that he narrowly dodged a slash to his brow; Brienne was definitely getting too hot-blooded in the fight, as she clearly aimed a slash at his face.

But take heed of how well Jaime handles sword-play against an opponent staggeringly more physically imposing. They were trading blows with each-other so hard that sparks came out, and Jaime and Brienne were raining these kinds of blows on each-other. That's the kind of slashes that can actually make a dent against helms.

Whatever policy Brienne might have had in not hurting Jaime, you're seeing here at work what Jaime said about speed and skill vs strength. He's in a state of significantly less physical prowess than Brienne, and he's still able to push her back severely, and defend from her onslaughts, which apparently were targeting his face with an intent to not hurt, in an extremely less imposing condition.

Therefore, regardless of injury or whatever Brienne's mindset was, this is, by far, one of the most impressive displays of Jaime's style of swordsmanship in the story, and a testament to his quote on how he would beat strength power-houses. He clearly knows very, very well how to place blows against people more physically imposing, and that's all I meant in my post.


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## NemeBro (Jun 9, 2014)

Uh, Oberyn almost fucking died when Gregor got past the spear's reach and would have if Gregor didn't get distracted by the screaming citizens he decided to hack apart in the middle of the fight.

Oberyn's good, and can take some wins, but the best swordsman in Westeros can handle him.


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## Rivers (Jun 12, 2014)

Reddan said:


> It's not wanking to say that Jaime has the advantage. It's a close fight, but I think Jaime has the edge at least 60/40 maybe even going up to70/30.
> 
> EDIT
> 
> That's not including if Oberyn is using poisoning and the chances Jaime dies afterwards.





The Bloody Nine said:


> Basically Jaime does the same things Oberyn does only he does them better and his fighting style seems to counter the lone spear man. And with Oberyn's light armour Jaime can finish the fight fast; long before the poison starts to slow him down.  I put it something like 80/20 in Jaime's favour.





NemeBro said:


> Uh, Oberyn almost fucking died when Gregor got past the spear's reach and would have if Gregor didn't get distracted by the screaming citizens he decided to hack apart in the middle of the fight.
> 
> Oberyn's good, and can take some wins, but the best swordsman in Westeros can handle him.



^^^ Pretty much these sentiments with MMV.

Out of 10 fights:
- Jaime walks away the victor to live 3 times
- Oberyn walks away the victor to live 3 times
- The other 4 times Jaime kills Oberyn, but dies from poison too.


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## Alakazam (Jul 12, 2015)

I'd say Jaime, he is far more agile and quicker than the mountain and his skills in swordsmanship are among the best ever. It will be a completly different fight because while the Mountain relies on his outstanding strength (with a fair amount of skills) Jaime in his part is full of agility and quickness, reaching him will be extremely difficult for Oberyn moreover it will be very difficult for him to prevent Jaime from closing the gap between them.


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## Louis Cyphre (Jul 12, 2015)

*Forgotten thread lost to the ages 
Arise and haunt the frontmost page*


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