# Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth VS Vishnu and Shiva (Read First two posts)



## Red (Oct 20, 2010)

In honor of my purchase of The Necronomicon (which has scared me shitless) and The Bhagavad Gita I make this match up. Two of the heavy hitters from both their respective lore battle each other.

*Azathoth:*


> [O]utside the ordered universe [is] that amorphous blight of nethermost  confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity?the  boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud,  and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time  and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the  thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes.


*Yog-Sothoth:*


> It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self ? not  merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate  animating essence of existence's whole unbounded sweep ? the last, utter  sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics  alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have  whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other  names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign...


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## Red (Oct 20, 2010)

*Vishnu and Shiva*



> I  am terrible time the destroyer of all beings in all worlds, engaged to  destroy all beings in this world





> The boy says, "Indras  before you. I have seen them come and go, come and go. Just think,   Vishnu sleeps in the cosmic ocean, and the lotus of the universe grows  from his navel.  On the lotus sits Brahma, the creator. Brahma opens his  eyes, and a world comes into being,  governed by an Indra. Brahma  closes his eyes, and a world goes out of being. The life of  a Brahma is  432,000 years. When he dies, the lotus goes back,  and another lotus is  formed, and another Brahma. Then think of the galaxies beyond galaxies   in infinite space, each a lotus, with a Brahma sitting on it, opening  his eyes, closing his  eyes. And Indras? There may be wise men in your  court who would volunteer to count the  drops of water in the oceans or  the grains of sand on the beaches, but no one would count  those  Brahmin, let alone those Indras."
> 
> When the boy is talking, a crotchety old yogi comes into the palace  with a banana leaf parasol.  He is naked except for a loincloth, and on  his chest is a little disk of hair, and half the  hairs in the middle  have all dropped out.
> The boy greets him and asks him just what Indra was about to ask. "Old  man, what is your name?  Where do you come from? Where is your family?  Where is your house? And what is the meaning of  this curious  constellation of hair on your chest?"
> ...


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## dream (Oct 20, 2010)

Vishnu solos going by wiki though I am not sure about how truthful it is.  



> The number of auspicious qualities of Vishnu as the supreme God are countless, with the following six qualities being the most important:
> 
> Jñāna (Omniscience), defined as the power to know about all beings simultaneously
> Aishvarya (Sovereignty, derived from the word Ishvara), which consists in unchallenged rule over all
> ...


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## Orochibuto (Oct 20, 2010)

Vishnu as far as I know was omnipotent, and it wasnt external omnipotence, Vishnu as I understood made the universe out of himself, he is everything and all. He is basically TOAA or Thanos HOTU.


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## zenieth (Oct 20, 2010)

Yeah no, while Vishnu and Shiva are powerful, when azathoth awakens, it all ends, all of it, everywhere, every time, everyplace, every non place.


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## dream (Oct 20, 2010)

I don't ever remember Azathoth being proclaimed as an Omnipotent.


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## Red (Oct 20, 2010)

> Vishnu solos


Vishnu and Shiva are both aspects of each other so "solos" would be more like "duos"? 

Azathoth is arguably omnipotent in his lore and YS is HUGE. The wiki description is aight but I prefer feats soley because saying "Vishnu is omnipotent" is not as interesting as saying "I have multiversal gods on my belly button."


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## zenieth (Oct 20, 2010)

All of the worlds, universes, imaginations and being of the lore of the lovecraft mythos are stated to in fact be nothing more than the dream of Azathoth. This includes the elder gods, great old ones and even the other outer gods.


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## Red (Oct 20, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Yeah no, while Vishnu and Shiva are powerful, when azathoth awakens, it all ends, all of it, everywhere, every time, everyplace, every non place.


But the same is said for Vishnu:

_I  am terrible time the destroyer of all beings in all worlds, engaged to  destroy all beings in this world 			 		_


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## blueblip (Oct 20, 2010)

Shiva starts dancing, and ends all existence, including Vishnu, sadly.





Orochibuto said:


> Vishnu as far as I know was omnipotent, and it wasnt external omnipotence, Vishnu as I understood made the universe out of himself, he is everything and all. He is basically TOAA or Thanos HOTU.


It's more complicated than that. Vishnu and Shiva are of equal stature actually.

Brahama restarts the universe after each of it's life cycles, Vishnu preserves it, Shiva destroys it, and even then their roles blur over. Not surprising since they are aspects of a greater universal force, after all.

In any case, either of them could solo the Lovecraftian gods.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 20, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Yeah no, while Vishnu and Shiva are powerful, when azathoth awakens, it all ends, all of it, everywhere, every time, everyplace, every non place.



You cant still compare, Azathoth while powerful his power is external. Vishnu and Shiva are the same beign divided in parts, but not only that Shiva is ALL that exists the time, the space everything, he just doesnt control it externally he IS the very thing and the only thing that exists according to it.

You must also remember this religions have an open canon that is filled by the experience of men. Yogananda a supposed master described pretty much that a fully realized man attained merger with Shiva/Vishnu and attained omnipotence, there was a part where he even describes seeing the universe as small as a basket. I dont see how could Azatoth compete with something that can grant true omnipotence.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 20, 2010)

blueblip said:


> Shiva starts dancing, and ends all existence, including Vishnu, sadly.It's more complicated than that. Vishnu and Shiva are of equal stature actually.
> 
> Brahama restarts the universe after each of it's life cycles, Vishnu preserves it, Shiva destroys it, and even then their roles blur over. Not surprising since they are aspects of a greater universal force, after all.
> 
> In any case, either of them could solo the Lovecraftian gods.



Yes, they are basically the trinity and thus omnipotent. And as I said is an open canon unlike other religions and according to Yogananda they/it can grant true omnipotence without losing true omnipotence themselves/himself, you cant get more broken than that.


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## zenieth (Oct 20, 2010)

Well excuse me for believing it is more impressive that only your dreamscape is all things that have been, will be, could be, should be, must be, must not be etc rather than your entire being such.


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## blueblip (Oct 20, 2010)

^Azatoth is ultimately tied to the universe, and there is nothing to suggest that it could survive beyond it. Also, that bit about the universe being Azatoth's dream should be taken with a grain of salt, primarily because most of the exposition comes from people who have gained an insight into how the universe works, and as per the Lovecraftian mythos, those people are, likely than not, insane.

Or at the very least, there's no way for anyone or anything, apart from Azatoth or Yog-Sothoth themselves, can truly comprehend what exactly Azatoth is.

EDIT: @Orochibuto - The true fun fuckery begins when you start reading the philosophical treatises of Indian philosophers (apart from the Vedas and Upinishads, which are 'mainstream') and start finding individual interpretations.

Hell, I'm true blue Hindu Indian, and most people I know just say "fuck it" and don't bother reading beyond the Gita, if at all. It requires full time study.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 20, 2010)

Orochibuto said:


> You cant still compare, Azathoth while powerful his power is external. Vishnu and Shiva are the same beign divided in parts, but not only that Shiva is ALL that exists the time, the space everything, he just doesnt control it externally he IS the very thing and the only thing that exists according to it.



Yog-Sothoth is the exact same thing. The Cthulhu Mythos is infinite in scope and it's all a part of Yog-Sothoth. Azathoth could be interpreted as even more powerful since it's stated to rule all of time and space, and Yog-Sothoth _is_ all of time and space.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 20, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Well excuse me for believing it is more impressive that only your dreamscape is all things that have been, will be, could be, should be, must be, must not be etc rather than your entire being such.



But again is Azatoth ALL things or he just control them externally? Is Azatoth even omnipotent? Can he create true omnipotent beigns without he himself losing omnipotence?

I even remember a part where Yogananda described 3 of these men (who where once normal people) whose duty among others was to answer or deny the prayers of normal people based on their sincerity, karmas etc. In short they were casually warping reality millions of times per day with Shiva/Vishnu power


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## zenieth (Oct 20, 2010)

Vishnu and Shiva did not create omnipotent beings. From the statement you posted, man had become a self aware part of Vishnu and thereby gain omnipotence. He did not make something omnipotent, a part of him became aware to the fact that it was omnipotent.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 20, 2010)

blueblip said:


> EDIT: @Orochibuto - The true fun fuckery begins when you start reading the philosophical treatises of Indian philosophers (apart from the Vedas and Upinishads, which are 'mainstream') and start finding individual interpretations.
> 
> Hell, I'm true blue Hindu Indian, and most people I know just say "fuck it" and don't bother reading beyond the Gita, if at all. It requires full time study.



That may be but as far as I know those are open canons, hence the reason why putting Buddha to debate people use feats shown in some writing where he ruled a multiverse or something I dont remember well. And again supposedly Buddha attained those powers because he merged with the Absolute which is the trinity.

In fact I remember reading a list about Buddha's supposed miracles in wikipedia and one of them was casually stomping a Haruhi-level deity.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 20, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Vishnu and Shiva did not create omnipotent beings. From the statement you posted, man had become a self aware part of Vishnu and thereby gain omnipotence. He did not make something omnipotent, a part of him became aware to the fact that it was omnipotent.



It has logic now that you say it. But I am asking you a question, are those deities omnipotent? Because if such then it should be a stalemate. Actually I dont think we will reach a conclusive answer in the thread, basically is omnipotent vs omnipotent.


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## Red (Oct 20, 2010)

Quick question, Azathoth is called "The Idiot God", how does this factor into the match? Is it just a name or is he really an idiot?


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## zenieth (Oct 20, 2010)

It's just a name.

 Nyarlathotep - the avatar of Azathoth and voice of the outer gods spends most of his days trolling elder gods and humans for his amusement.


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## blueblip (Oct 20, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Yog-Sothoth is the exact same thing. The Cthulhu Mythos is infinite in scope and it's all a part of Yog-Sothoth. Azathoth could be interpreted as even more powerful since it's stated to rule all of time and space, and Yog-Sothoth _is_ all of time and space.


Here's some perspective.

The Ramayana is a story about Vishnu's incarnation as Ram, the perfect human. In his youth Ram was trained by a sage called Vishwamithra. Vishwamithra had attained the pinnacle of sagacity as per Hinduism.

When Vishwamithra was younger and had still not achieved the greatness he had, he was presiding over a religious ceremony to allow a king to enter Swargalok (heaven, sort of).

Vishwamithra started off the ceremony, and the king started to rise to heaven. Indra, however, barred his way, and sent him back down. This pissed off Vishwamithra so much that he started _*creating his own universe*_, complete with stars and constellations. This scared the Devas so much, they begged him to stop, and left the king hanging in the heavens as a great star himself (yes, the king got totally gypped).

Compared to Vishnu and Shiva, Vishwamithra, even at the height of his powers, was infinitely weaker and less powerful than either of them. Go figure...


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## Orochibuto (Oct 20, 2010)

Apparently they have basically the same powers, Vishnu trinity at least from what I have read is omnipotent so if Azathoth is also omnipotent there is no case in debating, they cancel each other.


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## Red (Oct 20, 2010)

Orochibuto said:


> It has logic now that you say it. But I am asking you a question, are those deities omnipotent? Because if such then it should be a stalemate. Actually I dont think we will reach a conclusive answer in the thread, basically is omnipotent vs omnipotent.


Not a stalemate or whatever "omnipotent VS Omnipotent" outcome is, for this fight. Basically even if you're omnipotent, your personality effects what you do. Example:

I'm omnipotent and you're omnipotent, we fight, but I don't give a darn and you do. So you would win, even though you didn't best me. 

Honestly I made the thread so both sides can list ridiculously awesome feats and how both teams would go about interacting with each other.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 20, 2010)

Has Vishnu or Vishwamithra been used in a fight before in OBD? Because of not is time for Method of Test


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## blueblip (Oct 20, 2010)

Red said:


> Not a stalemate or whatever "omnipotent VS Omnipotent" outcome is, for this fight. Basically even if you're omnipotent, your personality effects what you do. Example:
> 
> I'm omnipotent and you're omnipotent, we fight, but I don't give a darn and you do. So you would win, even though you didn't best me.
> 
> Honestly I made the thread so both sides can list ridiculously awesome feats and how both teams would go about interacting with each other.


That makes it a very bad thread, since how the hell are we supposed to know how an omnipotent thinks or reacts to something.

It's only in the Marvel universe where the omnipotents are outsmarted by mere mortals.

EDIT: @Orochibuto - Vishwamithra would be a good one really. He's still mortal, of a sorts. Add to the fact that before becoming a sage, he was a king who had mastered all forms on physical combat.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 20, 2010)

blueblip said:


> Here's some perspective.
> 
> The Ramayana is a story about Vishnu's incarnation as Ram, the perfect human. In his youth Ram was trained by a sage called Vishwamithra. Vishwamithra had attained the pinnacle of sagacity as per Hinduism.
> 
> ...



It's not like a single universe is that impressive given the Cthulhu Mythos' scale. The Mi-Go are revealed to dwell in a universe much, much vaster than ours in The Whisperer in Darkness.



> The main body of the beings inhabits strangely organized abysses wholly beyond the utmost reach of any human imagination. The space-time globule which we recognize as the totality of all cosmic entity is only an atom in the genuine infinity which is theirs.



And Yog-Sothoth itself is the one who reveals the infinite nature of reality:



> Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension?as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing?the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ?Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones.



Yog-Sothoth encompasses that infinity entirely, and it may or may not be Azathoth's bitch depending on how you interpret the 'rules all time and space' quote.


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## blueblip (Oct 20, 2010)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> It's not like a single universe is that impressive given the Cthulhu Mythos' scale. The Mi-Go are revealed to dwell in a universe much, much vaster than ours in The Whisperer in Darkness.


Hindu mythos is also multiversal, and Vishnu and Shiva are tasked with protecting and destroying them respectively.

Plus, you missed the point of the story. Vishwamithra, a being who is not even a deity in Hinduism, is capable of creating a universe with his spiritual powers. Vishnu and Shiva are so far above him, it's like comparing Spider Man to TOAA.





> And Yog-Sothoth itself is the one who reveals the infinite nature of reality:
> 
> 
> 
> Yog-Sothoth encompasses that infinity entirely, and it may or may not be Azathoth's bitch depending on how you interpret the 'rules all time and space' quote.


Both are none-the-less bound by the universe they inhibit. There is nothing to show that they can extend their influence beyond their slice of infinity.

Some Hindu slokas, however, do say that Vishnu and Shiva can extend their powers beyond the infinite space and time of creation. What that means though, is up to you. For example, they use 'infinite' to define time, but actually the concept of time can be finite, but it purely depends on how you look at it, and I really don't want to get into, especially in OBD of all places.

Keep in mind that what I'm describing is a very, very, VERY watered down explanation of Hindu philosophy. This is going into the concept of infinity, and god forbid we get into a discussion on that here. 2000 odd years down the line, and Hindu philosophers are still giving crazy theories on how to define infinity, with different parameters.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 20, 2010)

blueblip said:


> and Hindu philosophers are still giving crazy theories on how to define infinity, with different parameters.



Indeed, Like Yogananda's master who became so big that our physical universe looked like a shopping basket  as he inhabited another universe that was way vaster than the physical one oh he was supposedly also above the way vaster universe than the physical one. Granted by relization/merger with God.

Parameters that make Galactus look like a microscopic beign.


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## zenieth (Oct 20, 2010)

So what? Some of the great old ones can wreck universes and they're such complete and utter shit tier compared to Outer Gods. Also from your story you said he frightened Indra and other deities as well, that puts him at their level even if he doesn't hold the title at all.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 20, 2010)

zenieth said:


> So what? Some of the great old ones can wreck universes and they're such complete and utter shit tier compared to Outer Gods. Also from your story you said he frightened Indra and other deities as well, that puts him at their level even if he doesn't hold the title at all.



A normal human that merged with divinity became so big that the physical universe was like a shopping basket to him, is that broken enough?


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## blueblip (Oct 20, 2010)

Spirtiual merit (_punya_) is what fuelled his powers, another concept which really can't be explained here. He was lesser than the Devas, but he most likely had greater spiritual merit, which justifies why he could wield that kind of power, and they couldn't.

And again, Vishnu and Shiva are far beyond anything Vishwamithra or the the Devas ever were. Like I said, comparing Vishwamithra or the Devas to Brahma, Vishnu, or Shiva is like comparing Spider Man to TOAA.

And I've never heard any of the Great Old Ones being able to universe bust. Then again, it's been a while since I've read any Lovecraftian literature, so please, refresh my memory.


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## zenieth (Oct 20, 2010)

merged with divinity, he's vishnu now... I just went over that.

edit: I never said any of them could universe bust. only the very highest like X'chll'at-aa can fuck with the whole universe, but not bust it. Most just float around the planetary - galaxy range.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 20, 2010)

zenieth said:


> merged with divinity, he's vishnu now... I just went over that.



What about punching a dude in the chest and making the dude become the omniverse itself for a few minutes? The dude that became the omniverse was a normal dude with high spiritual merit.


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## zenieth (Oct 20, 2010)

everything is vishnu, you just went over that. Meaning everything has that potential.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 20, 2010)

zenieth said:


> everything is vishnu, you just went over that. Meaning everything has that potential.



The dude that became the omniverse hasnt attained the merger yet, he just had insanely high spiritual merit, now imagine Vishnu itself, though I admit the dude was helped by another dude that had attained the merger.


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## zenieth (Oct 20, 2010)

Why are we even going over who did such awesome and thereby the guy above him is vastly more awesome? it's basically which omnipotent is more awesome.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 20, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Why are we even going over who did such awesome and thereby the guy above him is vastly more awesome? it's basically which omnipotent is more awesome.



Basically thats how omipotent fights go, . But seriously none of them cant lose because omnipotents cant fail.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 20, 2010)

blueblip said:


> Hindu mythos is also multiversal, and Vishnu and Shiva are tasked with protecting and destroying them respectively.
> 
> Plus, you missed the point of the story. Vishwamithra, a being who is not even a deity in Hinduism, is capable of creating a universe with his spiritual powers. Vishnu and Shiva are so far above him, it's like comparing Spider Man to TOAA.



Which just means they're really powerful and operate on a tremendous scale, but it's not a sign of superiority when comparing them with beings that encompass/rule an infinity of infinities. At best this looks to be another Omnipotent Fight, and we all know how those work out. 



> Both are none-the-less bound by the universe they inhibit. There is nothing to show that they can extend their influence beyond their slice of infinity.



I'm not sure what you mean by this. Yog-Sothoth _is_ the infinity. Creation is a manifestation of it, and it exists outside reality. The only statements regarding Azathoth's location is that it's 'Chaos' and 'the center of all infinity', but if it can rule all of time and space from there it can clearly extend itself beyond it's realm.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 20, 2010)

blueblip said:


> Plus, you missed the point of the story. Vishwamithra, a being who is not even a deity in Hinduism, is capable of creating a universe with his spiritual powers.



Well to be frank, ranks like Devas or gods here should be irrelevant. Basically everything works according to your proximity to real divinity. So it doesnt matter if a human > all Devas if the human has higher spiritual evolution. Just like a Gennin can wtfpwn a Kage.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2010)

You know there is no official Necronomicon, right? Just fanmade versions.


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## Quelsatron (Oct 21, 2010)

Tie, both are all-encompassing supreme dieties and you can't really pit them against eachother



Endless Mike said:


> You know there is no official Necronomicon, right? Just fanmade versions.



I'm pretty sure it's just a collection of short stories, a friend of mine got one recently.


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