# Akainu vs Yamamoto



## SilverMizuji (Mar 23, 2015)

Been seeing this alot that people saying Akainu would mid diff Yama so will be asking here.

Speed Equal
Bloodlusted

1000m Distance 

Location: Hyperbolic Time chamber.
Win by KO or Death.


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## Regicide (Mar 23, 2015)

SilverMizuji said:


> Been seeing this alot that people saying Akainu would mid diff Yama


He does, basically.


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## SilverMizuji (Mar 23, 2015)

Regicide said:


> He does, basically.


But how? o.o is his lava hotter than yama flames or something?


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## shade0180 (Mar 23, 2015)

He is faster. His DC is stronger... Both due to powerscaling to weaker characters than him...


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## SunRise (Mar 23, 2015)

Yama's Bankai is 2 or something Teratons. Your calc got thrown out, Regi?


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## Regicide (Mar 23, 2015)

I wouldn't say it got thrown out so much as people stopped giving enough of a fuck to continue the debate.

Which is basically the same thing, I suppose.


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## Sherlōck (Mar 23, 2015)

We are tired of HST debate. Only do it when we are bored out of our mind.

Its time for new blood to continue that bullshit.


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## Gunstarvillain (Mar 23, 2015)

A Better fight would be yama,ainku vs whitebeard enraged.


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## Fujita (Mar 23, 2015)

SilverMizuji said:


> But how? o.o is his lava hotter than yama flames or something?



No, it's not 

but higher temperature doesn't necessarily mean you can dish out more damage with your attacks 



Sherlōck said:


> Its time for new blood to continue that bullshit.



we don't have any new blood

except Pen 

who doesn't debate HST stuff anyway 

because he's smart... when it doesn't come to Nocturne, anyway


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## Iwandesu (Mar 23, 2015)

being fair there is nothing wrong with the dc behind it.
yama can easily concentrate his energyy for over than a second and display the teraton value
just if the feat were to apply to yama's dura


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## Aduro (Mar 23, 2015)

You guys need to think about characters specific abilites, not just speed because this is worse than the Toguro match..  Zanka no Taichi North could vaporise anything that got near Yama at 15 million degrees. Hurting Ace doesn't mean he gets to smother 1% of that kind of heat.



Come to think of it could they even survive in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber? Future Trunks could barely handle it and he was a super saiyan.


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## Fujita (Mar 23, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> being fair there is nothing wrong with the dc behind it.



Not true 

or at least, we never solved the problem 

We could accept the power value, but multiplying it by one second to get the "burst" of energy is completely arbitrary. In this case, there is zero physical reason to use a second beyond it being a nice number to multiply by. But we didn't finish the discussion over whether or not the power value is even right to begin with, given that the radiation stuff may not fit what's actually happening.



Aduro said:


> You guys need to think about characters specific abilites, not just speed because this is worse than the Toguro match..  Zanka no Taichi North could vaporise anything that got near Yama at 15 million degrees. Hurting Ace doesn't mean he gets to smother 1% of that kind of heat.





Fujita said:


> higher temperature doesn't necessarily mean you can dish out more damage with your attacks





> Come to think of it could they even survive in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber? Future Trunks could barely handle it and he was a super saiyan.



Hyperbolic time chamber's the standard location for battles. Just assume they can both survive.


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## Aphelion (Mar 23, 2015)

Don't we usually go "lolfiction" when it comes to environmental effects or lack thereof?


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## MAPSK (Mar 23, 2015)

Aphelion said:


> Don't we usually go "lolfiction" when it comes to environmental effects or lack thereof?



Yeah, but people lose their shit when it comes to Clorox these days


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## Regicide (Mar 23, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Its time for new blood to continue that bullshit.


Do we even have any fresh meat that are both regulars and willing to debate HST shit?

Meat that can debate worth a damn, mind you.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 23, 2015)

I don't mind, but most matches in the HST end with one side clearly winning unless someone keeps pulling for the other.


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## Fujita (Mar 23, 2015)

Aphelion said:


> Don't we usually go "lolfiction" when it comes to environmental effects or lack thereof?



Sure, when we have a reason to think the energy's higher than environmental effects let on 

...something that we usually get from environmental effects (from a different attack, weaker character, etc.), because that is the best way to gauge an attack's energy. "lolfiction" doesn't mean that environmental effects are obsolete or that we shouldn't think about what it means when an attack doesn't have them (that's how we get outliers, for example). 

The only method I can think of where we outright disregard environmental effects in a way similar to this radiation stuff is kinetic energy for projectiles. Even there, you can argue that you're calculating the energy of a mass moving at a given speed, something that's clearly actually happening on-panel. The radiation stuff is... very very weird, on-panel. Yamamoto has a finer degree of control over his fire than you'd see in real life, and I don't see the justification for the way he controls it being nicely equivalent to a constant-temperature blackbody. And unlike with a meteor or something, the lack of collateral damage changes how you look at the feat by quite a bit. You can get kinetic energy independent of how big a crater something makes. But the power formula doesn't mean what we're trying to make it mean if that radiation isn't happening exactly as expected.


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## Aphelion (Mar 23, 2015)

Fujita said:


> Sure, when we have a reason to think the energy's higher than environmental effects let on
> 
> ...something that we usually get from environmental effects (from a different attack, weaker character, etc.), because that is the best way to gauge an attack's energy. "lolfiction" doesn't mean that environmental effects are obsolete or that we shouldn't think about what it means when an attack doesn't have them (that's how we get outliers, for example).
> 
> The only method I can think of where we outright disregard environmental effects in a way similar to this radiation stuff is kinetic energy for projectiles. Even there, you can argue that you're calculating the energy of a mass moving at a given speed, something that's clearly actually happening on-panel. The radiation stuff is... very very weird, on-panel. Yamamoto has a finer degree of control over his fire than you'd see in real life, and I don't see the justification for the way he controls it being nicely equivalent to a constant-temperature blackbody. And unlike with a meteor or something, the lack of collateral damage changes how you look at the feat by quite a bit. You can get kinetic energy independent of how big a crater something makes. But the power formula doesn't mean what we're trying to make it mean if that radiation isn't happening exactly as expected.


I see your point, and I don't know much about thermodynamics, so I can't argue much on that front.

Though, even putting Regi's calc aside, it doesn't make much sense to begin with.  Like how the ground under Yama's feat remains perfectly intact despite the guy being surrounded by a cloak of flames that are one hundred fifty million degrees celsius


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## SunRise (Mar 23, 2015)

So what exactly is wrong with this calc?

Calc method? It's simple equation and pretty sure we used it already several times. Chaos's calc about some artificial pokemon sun or whatever and EM's calc for Human-torch plank temperature feat - there is more i think. So it should be ok.

Million degrees clam validity? Outlier? Should keep bleach down?


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## Fujita (Mar 23, 2015)

Aphelion said:


> I see your point, and I don't know much about thermodynamics, so I can't argue much on that front.



can't say I know a lot about thermo either, just going off of what I can gather from wikipedia and whatever 

so if somebody has a good thermo explanation for why I'm looking at it the wrong way, that's fine 



> Though, even putting Regi's calc aside, it doesn't make much sense to begin with.  Like how the ground under Yama's feat remains perfectly intact despite the guy being surrounded by a cloak of flames that are one hundred fifty million degrees celsius



That's pretty much the problem. Yama's ability is made of massive amounts of horseshit. Really cool horseshit, but it sucks trying to analyze it  



VioletHood said:


> So what exactly is wrong with this calc?







> Calc method? It's simple equation and pretty sure we used it already several times. Chaos's calc about some artificial pokemon sun or whatever and EM's calc for Human-torch plank temperature feat - there is more i think. So it should be ok.



...why does it matter if it's been used before. Going "but this guy did it before" doesn't make something less wrong and completely defeats the point of using precedent _based on debate._ Not to mention that different feats are different. Maybe the problem with this feat doesn't exist for the others. 



> Million degrees clam validity?



nope



> Outlier?



still nope 



> Should keep bleach down?





I know my long and sordid history of downplaying Bleach might lead people to think the worst of me here

but even so 

pulling the "b-but anti-Bleach bias" card while not even trying to mount an actual argument is seriously lazy debating 

I'm kind of impressed it's happened twice in this thread already


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## Brightsteel (Mar 23, 2015)

Regicide said:


> He does, basically.



I thought Yamamoto was triple-digit gigaton in doth DC and durability? Akainu is only around 90 gigatons, and the only advantage (disregarding speed) that Akainu has is durability, which is single digit terratons if I remember correctly.


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## Regicide (Mar 23, 2015)

Fujita said:


> Maybe the problem with this feat doesn't exist for the others.


It doesn't.


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## Fujita (Mar 23, 2015)

Regicide said:


> It doesn't.



well then 

there you have it


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## Hamaru (Mar 23, 2015)

What are the actual OBD stats for these two now anyway, and what are they based on?


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## Iwandesu (Mar 23, 2015)

considering the small country level calc is contested
yama is at least city level+ to island+ if you consider him>kenny and at least mach -29 60 to mach 200.
akainu is island level+ has possibly small country endurance and is mach 2000 from the dofla reacting to fuji's meteor feat.


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## Hamaru (Mar 23, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> considering the small country level calc is contested
> yama is at least city level+ to island+ if you consider him>kenny and at least mach -29 60 to mach 200.
> akainu is island level+ has possibly small country endurance and is mach 2000 from the dofla reacting to fuji's meteor feat.



I don't think anyone really considers Kenny > Yama-jii yet, unless he really does have a bankai. 

What makes Akainu island level with country level endurance? Is it his own feat or scale?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 23, 2015)

He tanked Whitebeard's quakes which is small country level durability so it is his own feat, island+ DC is scaling.


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## Fujita (Mar 23, 2015)

is that from Chinjao or the meteor?


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## Regicide (Mar 23, 2015)

The island level thing is from Chinjao.


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## Shunssj (Mar 23, 2015)

Hamaru said:


> I don't think anyone really considers Kenny > Yama-jii yet, unless he really does have a bankai.
> 
> What makes Akainu island level with country level endurance? Is it his own feat or scale?



well Kenny hasn't taken his patch off, or used kendo, so he doesn't need a bankai and I hope he doesn't have one


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 23, 2015)

When is the last time he even took off his eyepatch?


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## Shunssj (Mar 24, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> When is the last time he even took off his eyepatch?



didn't have it on when he got thrashed by Royd and Unohana


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## Sherlōck (Mar 24, 2015)

Fujita said:


> is that from Chinjao or the meteor?



No one gets scaled from meteor until someone outright destroys it.


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## Hamaru (Mar 24, 2015)

WB's destruction power is small country level? I feel like I missed a lot o_O


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## Nikushimi (Mar 24, 2015)

Yama-jii one-shots with Bankai.


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## Brightsteel (Mar 24, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Yama-jii one-shots with Bankai.



Only Yama's suicide attack would one-shot Akainu...


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 24, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> Only Yama's suicide attack would one-shot Akainu...



Would they even considering his logia body and the fact that he took Whitebeard's quakes? It's all small country shit.


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## Brightsteel (Mar 24, 2015)

> Would they even considering his logia body and the fact that he took Whitebeard's quakes? It's all small country shit.



Yama's suicide attack was calced at about 2 terratons if I remember correctly. So that's above Akainu's paygrade.....though he would be probably only taking a fraction of the total energy, since it's a mass-attack with no real target.....so actually it wouldn't.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 24, 2015)

Fujita said:


> Sure, when we have a reason to think the energy's higher than environmental effects let on
> 
> ...something that we usually get from environmental effects (from a different attack, weaker character, etc.), because that is the best way to gauge an attack's energy. "lolfiction" doesn't mean that environmental effects are obsolete or that we shouldn't think about what it means when an attack doesn't have them (that's how we get outliers, for example).
> 
> The only method I can think of where we outright disregard environmental effects in a way similar to this radiation stuff is kinetic energy for projectiles. Even there, you can argue that you're calculating the energy of a mass moving at a given speed, something that's clearly actually happening on-panel. The radiation stuff is... very very weird, on-panel. Yamamoto has a finer degree of control over his fire than you'd see in real life, and I don't see the justification for the way he controls it being nicely equivalent to a constant-temperature blackbody. And unlike with a meteor or something, the lack of collateral damage changes how you look at the feat by quite a bit. You can get kinetic energy independent of how big a crater something makes. But the power formula doesn't mean what we're trying to make it mean if that radiation isn't happening exactly as expected.



What?

Why does radiation not happening like real life invalidate it and not most speed feats, any and all giant explosions, ke, etc.


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## Fujita (Mar 24, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> What?
> 
> Why does radiation not happening like real life invalidate it and not most speed feats, any and all giant explosions, ke, etc.



The things we _calc_ have always had to act like they would in real life. They can be completely weird in other ways, but in every place we put in a number, it'd better be working like it does in real life. 

But anyway, maybe this is a better way to look at it. When we don't have environmental damage, we usually assume that the attack is concentrated (because you can't assume AoE something hasn't shown). If we apply that here, we could say that Yama is emitting teratons per second, which his just concentrated mostly to his immediate vicinity. (The alternative is assuming that he emits a shit ton of radiation per second which does absolutely nothing like what it should and that's... really kind of a nonsense explanation.) But unlike everything else, the heat being concentrated actually screws up the original method (free radiation) that you used to get teratons in the first place. So there's no reason to have made that original assumption, and the whole thing falls apart.


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## Hamaru (Mar 24, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> Only Yama's suicide attack would one-shot Akainu...



Yama-jii's bankai attack would be much stronger than his suicide attack. One uses all of the power of his shikai for a massive AOE attack, which was needed against Aizen due to how his illusions worked. The other uses all of his bankai power and puts it in a concentrated attack, which would be much more powerful.


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## SunRise (Mar 24, 2015)

*Fujita*, I will not read through all this pages in blog. So what exactly is wrong with Regi's calc then?


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## Regicide (Mar 24, 2015)

Does everyone around here have a reading phobia or something


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## Fujita (Mar 24, 2015)

VioletHood said:


> *Fujita*, I will not read through all this pages in blog. So what exactly is wrong with Regi's calc then?



I linked you page 2

what I say on page 2 sums up my first objection pretty nicely

then there was another discussion about power, and I think page 3 sums _that_ up rather nicely (just ignore the Taco/Nightbringer debate unless the topic they're discussing really interests you) 

then read my post at the top of this page


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## Solar (Mar 24, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Does everyone around here have a reading phobia or something


Reading HST blogs is an acquired taste that most wish to not acquire.


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## lokoxDZz (Mar 24, 2015)

Fuck this,can't you guys settle down about this a bit?

Theres only one person going against the calc, mainly Fujita(and maybe taco i dont even remember anymore), theres always some disbelief regarding those calcs,even more when it comes to clorox, can't we just take it unless more people take their time to actually put a efficient reason of why that calc should not be considered? Because what i read from Fujita ended in a cycle of neverending arguments, goddamn.


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## Regicide (Mar 24, 2015)

Reasons were put forward.

Just that conclusions weren't really reached.


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## shade0180 (Mar 24, 2015)

> mainly Fujita(and maybe taco i dont even remember anymore), theres always some disbelief regarding those calcs,



And that constitute for approval? 

she does have a point which Regi or anyone for that matter need to answer.



> can't we just take it unless more people take their time to actually put a efficient reason of why that calc should not be considered?



We really don't need more people.  We need people that actually put effort to ask questions why a feat is accepted.. not more people that could be considered lemmings and agreeing just for the sake of agreeing...


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## Regicide (Mar 24, 2015)

You're expecting more effort of me than I'm probably willing to expend.


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## SilverMizuji (Mar 24, 2015)

Sorry about this shitstorm of a  thread I just didn't and still don't how lava>15mill heat yes heat is not Dc but to produce that amount of heat for how ever long Yama fought would demand a massive amount of energy to sustain and so I thought how the hell would this monster covered in flames lose to lava also based on the fact Akainu does not have that many feats.

But I will just leave this as is.


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## Fujita (Mar 24, 2015)

lokoxDZz said:


> Fuck this,can't you guys settle down about this a bit?



how about no 



> Theres only one person going against the calc, mainly Fujita, (and maybe taco i dont even remember anymore)



...so? 

I've had a lot of people go "but we ignore collateral damage" without actually bothering to give me a good justification of why we can do that here (or addressing my reasons why we shouldn't do that here). I think the guy who said the most on this was Regi (or maybe Darth), but we never finished either of those debates (Regi at least didn't think that there was any reasonable conclusion, and I won't speak for Darth)  

Taco never argued about the heat concentration stuff, but as I remember it, he and I were pretty much undecided about what actually to multiply the power by to get an attack energy value. I think our discussion ended there, and that's another blow against using the calc.   

Aphelion also brought up collateral damage but conceded the point. You brought up collateral but never replied back to me.  

And Dastan made a post but never wanted to actually get into an argument (can't say I blame him ) 

(may have forgotten somebody here... it wasn't intentional) 



> theres always some disbelief regarding those calcs



you say "disbelief" like I'm just disagreeing with it for the sake of disagreeing with it 

I'm not 



> even more when it comes to clorox





I don't give a shit about your Bleach persecution complex 



> can't we just take it



no

see, the way this works

is that if somebody raises a halfway legitimate problem with the calc 

you have to address it, or the calc is out  



> unless more people take their time to actually put a efficient reason of why that calc should not be considered? Because what i read from Fujita ended in a cycle of neverending arguments, goddamn.



So, uh, basically, the time I spent typing up what I thought was wrong, reposting this shit just to try and get people to reply to it, then replying only to have them not reply again is just completely worthless because you happen to not want to deal with it 

See, I keep repeating myself because I'm apparently one of the only people that actually wants to have this debate. Absolutely nothing against people like Regi, Dastan, whoever, who just happen to not want to deal with this, because hey, it's their time and they can do what they want with it. 

But they're not trying to pull this absolute horseshit where they think they can go "majority rules" and avoid actually debating something

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Hardcore (Mar 24, 2015)

Fujita said:


> The things we _calc_ have always had to act like they would in real life. They can be completely weird in other ways, but in every place we put in a number, it'd better be working like it does in real life.
> 
> But anyway, maybe this is a better way to look at it. When we don't have environmental damage, we usually assume that the attack is concentrated (because you can't assume AoE something hasn't shown). If we apply that here, we could say that Yama is emitting teratons per second, which his just concentrated mostly to his immediate vicinity. (The alternative is assuming that he emits a shit ton of radiation per second which does absolutely nothing like what it should and that's... really kind of a nonsense explanation.) But unlike everything else, the heat being concentrated actually screws up the original method (free radiation) that you used to get teratons in the first place. So there's no reason to have made that original assumption, and the whole thing falls apart.



That.. refreshed my memory quite a bit


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## Fujita (Mar 24, 2015)

Hardcore said:


> That.. refreshed my memory quite a bit



in what way ?


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## MAPSK (Mar 24, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Does everyone around here have a reading phobia or something





Frederica Bernkastel said:


> Reading HST blogs is an acquired taste that most wish to not acquire.



This is most people's excuse, I imagine.


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## Regicide (Mar 24, 2015)

Might as well take my lack of response as a concession, honestly. I find it hard to work up the motivation to think this shit through when I'm not really that invested in the blog to begin with.

Maybe Dartg can do all the heavy lifting instead.


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## MAPSK (Mar 24, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Might as well take my lack of response as a concession, honestly. I find it hard to work up the motivation to think this shit through when I'm not really that invested in the blog to begin with.
> 
> Maybe Dartg can do all the heavy lifting instead.



That's the spirit, Regi


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## Fujita (Mar 24, 2015)

SilverMizuji said:


> Sorry about this shitstorm of a  thread I just didn't and still don't how lava>15mill heat yes heat is not Dc but to produce that amount of heat for how ever long Yama fought would demand a massive amount of energy to sustain and so I thought how the hell would this monster covered in flames lose to lava also based on the fact Akainu does not have that many feats.
> 
> But I will just leave this as is.



Temperature isn't heat (which is actually DC) 

And the issue with heat is that it doesn't screw over other durability feats, so if you can survive getting punched in the face by a guy that breaks planets, Yamamoto's bankai isn't going to do anything to you, even though the guy's fist wasn't on fire. That's why Akainu wins, because he's dealt with stuff that's got more energy, not because of temperature or even heat energy. 

And as for Yamamoto sustaining it... well, that's actually what we're arguing about right now


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## Sablés (Mar 24, 2015)

I've come to enjoy watching you fail and suffer, Regi 

My Schadenfreude aside, Yama's Bankai does radiates heat given Royd's admission and pretty much everything else happening in SS, I'd assume environmental destruction (or lack-of)  can be hand-waved as an inconsistency/lolfiction, specially when we consider shit like his clothes/body and the ground he walks on are untouched when that logically shouldn't be. Doesn't make much sense to just disregard that entirely.  My 2 cents 

*yoink*


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## Regicide (Mar 24, 2015)

Can't really be suffering when I wasn't putting much work into succeeding in the first place, Tables 

At least, not the level of work that getting into extended debate with Fujita over the mechanics of Yama's bankai would entail


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## Fujita (Mar 24, 2015)

Liquid said:


> I've come to enjoy watching you fail and suffer, Regi



harsh  



> My Schadenfreude aside, Yama's Bankai does radiates heat given Royd's admission and pretty much everything else happening in SS, I'd assume environmental destruction (or lack-of)  can be hand-waved as an inconsistency/lolfiction, specially when we consider shit like his clothes/body and the ground he walks on are untouched when that logically shouldn't be. Doesn't make much sense to just disregard that entirely.  My 2 cents



Yeah, there's definitely some radiation going on, but it's just... extremely weird. It should vaporize a powerful quincy, but does jack else even to ordinary things that are inside the same range, and it evaporates water in a way that seems to give thermodynamics the middle finger. I'd think, though, that even if we go lolfiction, this argument 



> When we don't have environmental damage, we usually assume that the attack is concentrated (because you can't assume AoE something hasn't shown). If we apply that here, we could say that Yama is emitting teratons per second, which his just concentrated mostly to his immediate vicinity. (The alternative is assuming that he emits a shit ton of radiation per second which does absolutely nothing like what it should and that's... really kind of a nonsense explanation.) But unlike everything else, the heat being concentrated actually screws up the original method (free radiation) that you used to get teratons in the first place. So there's no reason to have made that original assumption, and the whole thing falls apart.



should still apply

edit: though now that I look at it _I'm_ not sure that argument's right 

like

if the flame cloak emits a teraton a second which is magically concentrated into say the meter of air outside the cloak 

wouldn't the flame cloak still need to replenish that energy to keep its temperature 

...

except I guess there's still the completely massive difference in energy between being inside the cloak and even right outside it


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## lokoxDZz (Mar 24, 2015)

I don't think yama put teratons right of the bait,  just putting something, lets say that he  put all his power in the cloak, but instead he releases waves of the ernegy, that instead of being constant are getting stronger and stronger, one of the captains said that he was already being affected , and so others so i guess we can say that yama does input some of his ernegy outside, but instead of getting weaker, it gets stronger until everything collapses, we could call yama the epicenter of that ernegy being released and take it as result for a timeframe of 1 minute that they said that SS would be destroyed.

I hope my point can at least be understood


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## Sablés (Mar 24, 2015)

Fujita said:


> Yeah, there's definitely some radiation going on, but it's just... extremely weird. It should vaporize a powerful quincy, but does jack else even to ordinary things that are inside the same range, and it evaporates water in a way that seems to give thermodynamics the middle finger. I'd think, though, that even if we go lolfiction, this argumentshould still apply



Okay, just so we're on the same page the issue is: _The ambient effects  demonstrated by ZnT does not correlate with the method (free radiation) of calc._  In which case, the heat from Yama's Bankai while in effect isn't really consistent with thermodynamics (which I know fuck all about, Telling you right now)  but radiation is, obviously still present and it isn't just by Royd's statement. Icefail's Bankai can't function in the vicinity and superhumans as strong as Shunsui receive minor cuts. At this stage, this is really something I'd chalk up to an artistic mistake, the individuals present were of greater relevance for portraying the power of Yama's Bankai than whatever was lying on the ground - this sounds like a copout (and it is) however it is also  common issue within all kinds of fiction.

I feel like we've reached an impasse where no further arguments can be made for both sides (prolly why there hasn't been a conclusion to the debate a week after ) You either handwave this as lolfiction using the evidence listed above for radiation of some kind...or you don't and the calc is bogus however in doing so, are ignoring valid points that lend to the credence of the calc that really can't be explained in any other way. 







> edit: though now that I look at it _I'm_ not sure that argument's right
> 
> like
> 
> ...



That problem exists whether you consider this calc valid or not methinks. 

 That energy will have to be constantly maintained regardless given he and Unohana are worried he'll demolish SS; it doesn't really make sense for the energy to diminish while he's fighting either way. He'd have nothing to worry about in that event.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 25, 2015)

Fujita said:


> The things we _calc_ have always had to act like they would in real life. They can be completely weird in other ways, but in every place we put in a number, it'd better be working like it does in real life.
> 
> But anyway, maybe this is a better way to look at it. When we don't have environmental damage, we usually assume that the attack is concentrated (because you can't assume AoE something hasn't shown). If we apply that here, we could say that Yama is emitting teratons per second, which his just concentrated mostly to his immediate vicinity. (The alternative is assuming that he emits a shit ton of radiation per second which does absolutely nothing like what it should and that's... really kind of a nonsense explanation.) But unlike everything else, the heat being concentrated actually screws up the original method (free radiation) that you used to get teratons in the first place. So there's no reason to have made that original assumption, and the whole thing falls apart.



Why does the heat being concentrated screw up the radiation assumption any more than the lack of environmental effects screws up other assumptions


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## Fujita (Mar 25, 2015)

So I tried to cut this down, but it’s probably still going to be wordy as fuck. 



Nightbringer said:


> Why does the heat being concentrated screw up the radiation assumption any more than the lack of environmental effects screws up other assumptions



just

kind of 

ignore that post 

I don’t think I was making a lot of sense there 



Liquid said:


> Okay, just so we're on the same page the issue is: _The ambient effects  demonstrated by ZnT does not correlate with the method (free radiation) of calc._  In which case, the heat from Yama's Bankai while in effect isn't really consistent with thermodynamics (which I know fuck all about, Telling you right now)



I think that sums it up



> but radiation is, obviously still present, and it isn't just by Royd's statement. Icefail's Bankai can't function in the vicinity and superhumans as strong as Shunsui receive minor cuts.



This is some odd evaporation/drying effect, yeah. I wouldn't really make a big deal of Shunsui being superhuman here, honestly, but killing off Hitsugaya's bankai is decently impressive (as is getting rid of the water in the first place). It's weird in that it seems to mostly affect water (literally every character only talks about something to do with stuff drying out, and nothing else)... not sure how I'd interpret that except maybe it was just meant to be cool...? I dunno. I’d imagine it takes a decent amount of energy to melt Hitsugaya’s bankai, but nobody even seems to notice the heat iirc. 



> At this stage, this is really something I'd chalk up to an artistic mistake, the individuals present were of greater relevance for portraying the power of Yama's Bankai than whatever was lying on the ground - this sounds like a copout (and it is) however it is also  common issue within all kinds of fiction.



It's basically just... inconsistent. Kubo's certainly happy to destroy ground when Yama touches it, but yeah, it should be consistently vaporizing or what have you if there's enough radiation to kill off whatshisface. Of course, it’d be stupid as hell if Yama was destroying the ground under him, and he just kept sinking down and down away from fake Bach or something  



> I feel like we've reached an impasse where no further arguments can be made for both sides (prolly why there hasn't been a conclusion to the debate a week after ) You either handwave this as lolfiction using the evidence listed above for radiation of some kind...or you don't and the calc is bogus however in doing so, are ignoring valid points that lend to the credence of the calc that really can't be explained in any other way.



Hm. Well, both options are fairly circular; they each basically work, but only if you start out believing them. But there _is_ a bit of a difference with this feat compared to the general handwaving of collateral that we do, just to answer Darth’s question. You can’t go “lolfiction” when trying to prove that something fits an equation, because the only reason you can really claim that physics works to begin with is that it isn’t contradicted, and you need to be able to analyze the evidence for contradiction/lack of contradiction at face value, or it’s useless as evidence. We’d be in a weird la-la land where we can pick whatever equation we want for anything and just use “lolfiction” as an excuse. It’d be like taking an object that’s clearly floating, deciding to use free fall to get a very short time frame and then claiming that it should have been falling, it just wasn’t shown. Well, that’s… really sort of a shit example, but hopefully it kind of explains my point? Here, the presence/lack of radiation directly impacts whether or not you can even use the method to begin with, and so you can’t automatically handwave the environmental effects like you’d do at other times (where we have some energy value that we got from an independent method that’s reliable). 

That said? I think you raise some pretty good points for why we could possibly handwave it. I mean, if we know that shit not bursting into fire is inconsistent with what ought to be a more reliable measure of heat (fake!Bach being in danger of burning up without special Quincy blood), then… it’s sort of hard to see how I can feasibly bring up shit not bursting into fire as actual evidence of anything. At the same time it’s just such a… _total_ lack of shit bursting into fire that it’s so very hard to ignore it  And it's not as though I'd have to prove that there's no radiation for my point to stand, I'd just need to show that the amount of radiation leaking in no way resembles teratons. But since we can't trust collateral damage that's... sort of looking very hard to prove. At any rate, *I’ll just withdraw this objection* since I really don't want to go into overanalyzing collateral damage right now. 

So… now that we’re done with that 

anybody care to justify choosing one second as the multiplier here


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 25, 2015)

Oh God


----------



## Regicide (Mar 25, 2015)

Wait

What just happened


----------



## MAPSK (Mar 25, 2015)

Is... is country level Bleach finally a thing?


----------



## Regicide (Mar 25, 2015)

No, we still have the power headache to deal with

I ain't touching that can of worms though


----------



## Fujita (Mar 25, 2015)

So I bolded the important part of all that text

and I realize that I never replied to this so 



lokoxDZz said:


> I don't think yama put teratons right of the bait,  just putting something, lets say that he  put all his power in the cloak, but instead he releases waves of the ernegy, that instead of being constant are getting stronger and stronger, one of the captains said that he was already being affected , and so others so i guess we can say that yama does input some of his ernegy outside, but instead of getting weaker, it gets stronger until everything collapses, we could call yama the epicenter of that ernegy being released and take it as result for a timeframe of 1 minute that they said that SS would be destroyed.



I think that's an interesting hypothesis, but if he doesn't release all the energy at once, then... power really isn't the right way to look at it. You'd want to calculate soul society getting destroyed, which I think Sables did in a blog (what actually happened with that calc, by the way)


----------



## MAPSK (Mar 25, 2015)

Regicide said:


> No, we still have the power headache to deal with
> 
> I ain't touching that can of worms though



Okay, good. For a second there I thought the world was about to end


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 26, 2015)

Fujita said:


> So I bolded the important part of all that text
> 
> and I realize that I never replied to this so
> 
> ...



the destroying ss calc is currently accepted

but the consensus seemed to be suggesting that energy would only be relevant in big final fuck you attacks ala Mugetsu or something

I can't remember.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 26, 2015)

> anybody care to justify choosing one second as the multiplier here


Why choose 1 sec anyway, it's quite obvious the match lasted longer than that.


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 26, 2015)

^That's not what she's getting at.


----------



## SilverMizuji (Mar 26, 2015)

Bleach can be whatever lvl problem is also bleach is slow as hell.Need more speed feats...


----------



## MAPSK (Mar 26, 2015)

SilverMizuji said:


> Bleach can be whatever lvl problem is also bleach is slow as hell.Need more speed feats...



You hear that? Chop chop, Regi


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 26, 2015)

Why does the lack of current collateral damage matter when we are told multiple times what the end result it? Effecting Sr. Captain class fighters is a better effect than destroying buildings anyway. At the end of the day, we know the heat is radiating, and we know that in the end, Soul Society would be destroyed.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 26, 2015)

Oh there was more?

What's this about power and multipliers?


----------



## Regicide (Mar 26, 2015)

The teraton yield for the sun cloak is based on energy released per second, Tables


----------



## Sablés (Mar 26, 2015)

Regicide said:


> The teraton yield for the sun cloak is based on energy released per second, Tables



And..why does that matter?


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 26, 2015)

Who wins


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 26, 2015)

@Liquid

 The energy released over the given time-frame coincides with the how much power is being output with each given wave I believe.


----------



## Regicide (Mar 26, 2015)

Liquid said:


> And..why does that matter?


One of the arguments is that since it's not an "instantaneous" energy release as with other feats, we would need some indication of Yama charging that energy for a second and then releasing it in a single attack before we scale it to his DC proper

And then durability can be derived from that if someone tanks said attack or something

The problem is both getting a timeframe, and getting a part where he's charging shit at all

Hence the headache


----------



## Sablés (Mar 26, 2015)

Regicide said:


> One of the arguments is that since it's not an "instantaneous" energy release as with other feats, we would need some indication of Yama charging that energy for a second and then releasing it in a single attack before we scale it to his DC proper
> 
> And then durability can be derived from that if someone tanks said attack or something
> 
> ...



Que?

I was under the assumption that no amount of energy released is instantaneous, there will always be lag relative to how fast X and Y are. Wouldn't that seriously skew perspective on matches with significant disparities in speed.

Besides, Yama stands in his cloak when he uses his Bankai for what is clearly more than a second before attacking Royd.


----------



## MAPSK (Mar 26, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Que?
> 
> I was under the assumption that no amount of energy released is instantaneous, there will always be lag relative to how fast X and Y are. Wouldn't that seriously skew perspective on matches with significant disparities in speed.
> 
> Besides, Yama stands in his cloak when he uses his Bankai for what is clearly more than a second before attacking Royd.



I brought this exact point up in Regi's Zanka no Tachi blog


----------



## Regicide (Mar 26, 2015)

Liquid said:


> I was under the assumption that no amount of energy released is instantaneous, there will always be lag relative to how fast X and Y are. Wouldn't that seriously skew perspective on matches with significant disparities in speed.


Kind of, but we sort of ignore energy transfer, for the most part.

It only comes up when something we calc something and the final value is in joules/second instead of just straight joules.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 26, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Kind of, but we sort of ignore energy transfer, for the most part.
> 
> It only comes up when something we calc something and the final value is in joules/second instead of just straight joules.



Fair enough, This _is _pretty much Ignore: The calc, anyway. 

Still not seeing the problem though. With what I understood from you and LelG proposing Yama gets durability from his cloak. Why would someone else need to tank the attack for him to get the scaling?


----------



## SunRise (Mar 27, 2015)

Fujita even brought collateral damage.

Cloak yields this much of energy.  More time pass - it generates more as Yama can't hold it for long time. Second is just for simplicity if you want use it.


As for dc I am not sure - this comes out to surface area thing. But if he should be able to release it with offensive moves as well according to Occam's razzor.


----------



## SunRise (Mar 27, 2015)

I like how Regi turned back to his own calc avoiding serious debates.


----------



## Energy (Mar 27, 2015)

I seriously lol'd hard when I saw people claim that frecking Akainu would be able to mid diff Yamamoto.
There aren't even any restrictions on this fight and people putting akainu's dc higher than Yamamoto's when we haven't seen Akainu do shit DC wise, being able to damage whitebeard and ace doesn't matter either since OP characters get hurt by bullets, fodders with swords and spiky balls that can be stopped with regular flowers and die if they fall from 1km height.

the wank is real.


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 27, 2015)

> characters get hurt by bullets, fodders with swords and spiky balls that can be stopped with regular flowers and die if they fall from 1km height.




and thanos get arrested by the police... now stop being an idiot..


----------



## MAPSK (Mar 27, 2015)

ITT: Spiderman beats Firelord, Thanos gets arrested by the police, and VioletCunt pretends he knows jackshit about anything


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 27, 2015)

Silver surfer gets knockout with a plank and gets kidnapped by black Americans.


----------



## MAPSK (Mar 27, 2015)

Majin Buu is hurt by bullets


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 27, 2015)

The difference between comics and manga is that manga is written by one person while comic characters are created by one and handled by many. So yeah, I get the point you guys are trying to make, but lets get back on topic.


----------



## Fujita (Mar 27, 2015)

Liquid said:


> I was under the assumption that no amount of energy released is instantaneous, there will always be lag relative to how fast X and Y are. Wouldn't that seriously skew perspective on matches with significant disparities in speed.



Yes, it would skew the way we look at it, so I'm be fine with generally ignoring power in actual matches. But you can't ignore power while using power. 

There's got to be some reasonable argument for whatever we multiply the power by, especially if we're trying to handwave a joules per second value so that it applies to an attack (which works a lot differently than what was calced) that would logically take place in a lot less than a second. 



> Besides, Yama stands in his cloak when he uses his Bankai for what is clearly more than a second before attacking Royd.



Oh, sure, he definitely has more than a second's worth of energy total. But that doesn't tell us much about how much energy he puts into a single attack, does it? It could be less than the teraton, or it could be more (up to, I suppose, the power multiplied by the amount of time he was in bankai, but hell if anybody's going to try and actually calculate that). 



Energy said:


> I seriously lol'd hard when I saw people claim that frecking Akainu would be able to mid diff Yamamoto.
> There aren't even any restrictions on this fight and people putting akainu's dc higher than Yamamoto's when we haven't seen Akainu do shit DC wise, being able to damage whitebeard and ace doesn't matter either since OP characters get hurt by bullets, fodders with swords and spiky balls that can be stopped with regular flowers and die if they fall from 1km height.
> 
> the wank is real.


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 27, 2015)

It seems as if half of his bankai's power goes into his blade while the other half goes into his armor. Then when he launches his final attack, he uses the full power that is in both for his blast.


----------



## Fujita (Mar 27, 2015)

That... doesn't resolve the issue though 

doesn't matter what power he actually uses, we still don't know what to multiply it by to get an energy value that we can compare to other energy values and figure out how his DC stacks up against other characters


----------



## SunRise (Mar 27, 2015)

*MAPSK*, wow still mad at me. 

*Fujita*, why we even should use energy/per time. His whole body just getting hit by 15 k degrees - isn't it?  Then it hits again and again for entire fight. And that's all.


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 27, 2015)

Because energy don't just vanish.... they do stack up over time if their is a constant flow of it...


----------



## Fujita (Mar 27, 2015)

VioletHood said:


> *Fujita*, why we even should use energy/per time.



...because that's what the calc gives us? 



> His whole body just getting hit by 15 k degrees - isn't it?  Then it hits again and again for entire fight. And that's all.



Yes, that's how power works

Unfortunately, we measure things in energy, not power 

so in order to compare this to any other feat, we need to get energy out of said power


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 27, 2015)

Fujita said:


> That... doesn't resolve the issue though
> 
> doesn't matter what power he actually uses, we still don't know what to multiply it by to get an energy value that we can compare to other energy values and figure out how his DC stacks up against other characters



I was just pointing it out because Yama-jii states that his armor AND blade both have the heat of the sun. Which means 1,500,000 degrees go into his armor, and another 1,500,000 degrees go into his blade. So whatever the energy output turns out to be, it would only apply to his Dur and basic attack. His final attack would be a higher number, at least twice as high.


----------



## SunRise (Mar 27, 2015)

*Fujita*, why just don't use second?


----------



## Fujita (Mar 27, 2015)

Hamaru said:


> I was just pointing it out because Yama-jii states that his armor AND blade both have the heat of the sun. Which means 1,500,000 degrees go into his armor, and another 1,500,000 degrees go into his blade. So whatever the energy output turns out to be, it would only apply to his Dur and basic attack. His final attack would be a higher number, at least twice as high.



That's not quite how temperature works. Both cloak and sword could be 1,500,000 degrees, but they don't necessarily have to have the same energy.  



VioletHood said:


> *Fujita*, why just don't use second?



Because there is no actual reason to use it as opposed to other values...?


----------



## Regicide (Mar 27, 2015)

Well, technically it's fifteen million, but degrees are meaningless by themselves.

At least as I understand it.


----------



## Fujita (Mar 27, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Well, technically it's fifteen million



what!?

stop with this outrageous wank 



> but degrees are meaningless by themselves.
> 
> At least as I understand it.



I wouldn't quite say meaningless, but... yeah, actually, meaningless. In most contexts, though, they do give you a decent impression of how hot something is, even if energy transfer and what have you is a lot more complicated than just looking at the temperature.


----------



## Shunssj (Mar 27, 2015)

Fujita said:


> what!?
> 
> stop with this outrageous wank
> .



His cloak is 15 million degrees.


----------



## SunRise (Mar 27, 2015)

> Because there is no actual reason to use it as opposed to other values...?


It can be more than one second? You know it's not like oven or something - it's not heating up. He just have this temperature like every given timeframe - there is no hints for otherwise - so it can be only smaller. One second represent accurate and simple low-end - you against low-ends?


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 27, 2015)

VioletHood said:


> It can be more than one second? You know it's not like oven or something - it's not heating up. *He just have this temperature like every given timeframe* - there is no hints for otherwise - so it can be only smaller. One second represent accurate and simple low-end - you against low-ends?



Temperature? Yeah. Energy? No. That's the point of the per second figure. With your talk of low-ends it seems you're not understanding what power is.


----------



## Fujita (Mar 27, 2015)

VioletHood said:


> It can be more than one second? You know it's not like oven or something - it's not heating up. He just have this temperature like every given timeframe - there is no hints for otherwise - so it can be only smaller. One second represent accurate and simple low-end - you against low-ends?



Uh 

_what_

Clearly something's either been lost in translation or you're looking at this a completely different way than I am, because I have no idea what you're getting at here.  

What _are_ you getting at here? 

Anyways 

I think looking at this as a hypothetical charging attack that’s related to the power in some nebulous way is kind of a confusing way to go about this. So how about we look at Yama’s actual feats? We know that with Blut Vene, fake!Bach can essentially stand in Yama’s presence without severe damage. However, when he actually swings at Yama, his sword gets cleanly vaporized where it went into the flame cloak. So, what this tells us is that in a normal attack time frame T, Yama’s cloak gives off energy E so that 

E/T >>> 1 teraton/second 

because the power _has_ to be radically higher to go from leaving the sword unscathed to annihilating it. (Sure, there’s also surface area to account for here but… fuck surface area.) 

The problem here is that we know that T is substantially smaller than a second. Being generous, let’s say that the sword has to cross a meter before hitting Yama. Then T is roughly 0.0001 seconds using forevermach29, so E could be as low as 0.0001 times the teraton value (though it’s got to be higher, of course, just to some unquantifiable extent). Of course, I’m calc stacking to a horrendous degree, but I don’t see a different way to look at this, to be honest.


----------



## Regicide (Mar 27, 2015)

A problem with that that I can see is that if the characters get faster for whatever reason, the timeframe becomes lower, thus reducing the energy value.


----------



## Fujita (Mar 27, 2015)

Regicide said:


> A problem with that that I can see is that if the characters get faster for whatever reason, the timeframe becomes lower, thus reducing the energy value.



...

fuck 

...I think it's because the durability feat we have is in terms of power, not energy. We're used to thinking of durability as a set energy, but that's only because we ignore power, which we can't really do here.

That's also happening because the destructive feat is a function of time as well, when it usually isn't.


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 27, 2015)

Why don't we just use the bankai multiplier to make it easy?


----------



## Fujita (Mar 27, 2015)

use the bankai multiplier for what?


----------



## Regicide (Mar 27, 2015)

I think he's saying to multiply Yama's shikai to get a value for his bankai?


----------



## Fujita (Mar 27, 2015)

On the other hand

you can't indefinitely keep decreasing time because there's got to be some minimum energy at which nothing will happen, regardless of power 

I think

...this is some kind of awful time-dependent strain problem or something, isn't it. I have no idea.


----------



## Ashi (Mar 27, 2015)

Bleach is still too slow!


----------



## Alita (Mar 27, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> He is faster. His DC is stronger... Both due to powerscaling to weaker characters than him...


Isn't yama sitting at at least 100+ gigatons of firepower and durability? Akainu is only at 8+ gigatons scaling of don with around 1.2 teratons of durability.

I think it would take more along the lines of mid to high difficulty for him to beat yama.


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 27, 2015)

^ From what it looks like, we are still working out Yama-jii's stats.


----------



## Brightsteel (Mar 28, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> Isn't yama sitting at at least 100+ gigatons of firepower and durability? Akainu is only at 8+ gigatons scaling of don with around 1.2 teratons of durability.
> 
> I think it would take more along the lines of mid to high difficulty for him to beat yama.





And I'm pretty sure someone mentioned that Akainu, would be at least triple digit gigatons, since he's matched an attack from Whitebeard.


----------



## Imagine (Mar 28, 2015)

Is this thread even about Akainu vs Yama anymore?


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Mar 28, 2015)

it's about people trying to find a way to quantify Yama's ability but wind up confusing themselves even further 

admittedly, it's pretty funny


----------



## Imagine (Mar 28, 2015)

Yama died like 2 years ago and this is still a thing


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 28, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> it's about people trying to find a way to quantify Yama's ability but wind up confusing themselves even further
> 
> admittedly, it's pretty funny



This seems to be going on a lot with Bleach lately.


----------



## SunRise (Mar 28, 2015)

*Fujita*, why just dodge questions? Do Yama was implied to be oven or something? Where you get that he should even heat up? He just getting hit by thing energy entire time - what is the problem? Specially with accurate low-end of 1 second.

Where you get info that he should radiate something/per second? Source for this in manga? Where it was shown or implied? You just pulling things out of thing air.

It's exactly same thing we seen a lot of times - just use standart 1 second for simplicity.

It's just no brain bs. That is another reason why is retarded. ._.


----------



## Regicide (Mar 28, 2015)

Do you not understand the concept of energy transfer or something?

Or for that matter, actually read the blog being discussed here in the first place?


----------



## Fujita (Mar 28, 2015)

VioletHood said:


> *Fujita*, why just dodge questions? Do Yama was implied to be oven or something? Where you get that he should even heat up? He just getting hit by thing energy entire time - what is the problem? Specially with accurate low-end of 1 second.



Heat up? The actual fuck are you talking about? When did I say that? Quote me. 



> Where you get info that he should radiate something/per second? Source for this in manga? Where it was shown or implied? You just pulling things out of thing air.





the calc

did you not read

the calc



> It's exactly same thing we seen a lot of times - just use standart 1 second for simplicity.



and unless you can tell me why a second isn't wrong, shut up, go away and read the calc or something  



> It's just no brain bs. That is another reason why is retarded. ._.



you have no idea what you're doing, do you?


----------



## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> He is faster. His DC is stronger... Both due to powerscaling to weaker characters than him...



I don't know. Wasn't yamas shikai after aborbed by wonderweise supposed to be enough to detroy karakura town like multiple times over? DC goes to yama... he alo one shotted a building level beast


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 29, 2015)

I mean, Akainu could destroy a building by spitting on it if he wanted to. Both of these fighters are far, far above that pay grade.


----------



## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

Tacocat said:


> I mean, Akainu could destroy a building by spitting on it if he wanted to. Both of these fighters are far, far above that pay grade.




```

```

Your point? I can destroy a building as well (given enough time) what matters is the method and speed of said destruction. Yama did it with a casual sword swing. On top of that is lol Waaay faster. he blitz the senior captains that dodge thousands of starks cero like its nothing, and blitz them multiple times before they could react. 

No way is akainu tagging him, unless u nerf his speed to no end.Yama tanked a attack that could destroy karakura town multiple times over... still had enough to use final technique... whats akainu gunna do? or just ...bankai gg


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 29, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> 
> ...



Er. I specifically said by spitting on it. Not to say that's actually going to happen, but I obviously meant to infer a level of casualness. Building level shenanigans mean absolutely jack shit to these characters.

My point being your point is irrelevant.

And no, he's not faster. You don't seem to account for the fact that every fiction will represent speed differently, but if perspective meant nothing they would all be moving at blitzing speeds. What matters are feats, and Bleach isn't sitting too pretty as far as conclusive, concise speed feats go at the moment. Akainu is mach 2000.


----------



## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

Tacocat said:


> Er. I specifically said by spitting on it. Not to say that's actually going to happen, but I obviously meant to infer a level of casualness. Building level shenanigans mean absolutely jack shit to these characters.
> 
> My point being your point is irrelevant.
> 
> And no, he's not faster. You don't seem to account for the fact that every fiction will represent speed differently, but if perspective meant nothing they would all be moving at blitzing speeds. What matters are feats, and Bleach isn't sitting too pretty as far as conclusive, concise speed feats go at the moment. Akainu is mach 2000.



Lets talk then  kenpachi was in complete darkness with no senses. He was able to react to a captain level swod slash before it cut him (in complete darkness, soundless voide) In order to dosomething like this in real life u have to have incredible reaction. Since u don't even have ur eyes or ears to warn u when the attack is coming ur reaction must be massive. So if kenpachi who isn't even known for speed can literally react to someone with ZERO senses to work with. Then Yamamoto the head captain for 1000 years with eys and ears should be able to see, and evade ANY attack akainu has. Stop wanking akainu.

Still haven't countered me here. bleach is a verse that has a specific ability towards speed. here we go, let me explain for u quick 

If someone blitz me but I can see it, but not dodge it that's fast, but when I cant see or dodge that's STUPID FAST. in order to hit blitz a normal human wihout them even perceiving it u would have to be moving at least a couple hundred mph. Now that's a huuuuge gap in speed there. SO ... again yama blitz beings who can move across miles in a single seond (stark). Miles in a second IS quantifiable. Stop trying to deny bleach speed feats


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 29, 2015)

Albeit, Bach's speed is undergoing consideration right now. But he's been on some next level shit recently. Also, it's Bleach, so it might result in the never-ending "wait-till-next-chapter" conclusion.


----------



## LazyWaka (Mar 29, 2015)

Tacocat said:


> Albeit, Bach's speed is undergoing consideration right now. But he's been on some next level shit recently. Also, it's Bleach, so it might result in the never-ending "wait-till-next-chapter" conclusion.



It could also be given the "Gin's Bankai" treatment as well.


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 29, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Lets talk then  kenpachi was in complete darkness with no senses. He was able to react to a captain level swod slash before it cut him (in complete darkness, soundless voide) In order to dosomething like this in real life u have to have incredible reaction. Since u don't even have ur eyes or ears to warn u when the attack is coming ur reaction must be massive. So if kenpachi who isn't even known for speed can literally react to someone with ZERO senses to work with. Then Yamamoto the head captain for 1000 years with eys and ears should be able to see, and evade ANY attack akainu has. Stop wanking akainu.
> 
> Still haven't countered me here. bleach is a verse that has a specific ability towards speed. here we go, let me explain for u quick


Except everything you've said here is relative. It means absolutely nothing in reference to another verse, i.e. OP. So we deal in quantifiable feats, because that has substance when talking about cross-universe battles, savvy? I don't need to counter anything you've said because you haven't said anything that holds any relevance.



> If someone blitz me but I can see it, but not dodge it that's fast, but when I cant see or dodge that's STUPID FAST.


You're talking about Bleach, which is notorious for gratuitous blitztrope. Even then, it still means nothing with reference to Akainu unless you want to calc stack.



> in order to hit blitz a normal human wihout them even perceiving it u would have to be moving at least a couple hundred mph. Now that's a huuuuge gap in speed there.


A couple hundred mph is molasses to even pre-skip mid-tiers like the M3. So no.



> SO ... again yama blitz beings who can move across miles in a single seond (stark). Miles in a second IS quantifiable. Stop trying to deny bleach speed feats


How does saying OP is faster deny any of Bleach's conclusive speed feats?

OP characters can also move miles in a second, fyi.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 29, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Lets talk then  kenpachi was in complete darkness with no senses. He was able to react to a captain level swod slash before it cut him (in complete darkness, soundless voide) In order to dosomething like this in real life u have to have incredible reaction. Since u don't even have ur eyes or ears to warn u when the attack is coming ur reaction must be massive. So if kenpachi who isn't even known for speed can literally react to someone with ZERO senses to work with. Then Yamamoto the head captain for 1000 years with eys and ears should be able to see, and evade ANY attack akainu has. Stop wanking akainu.
> 
> Still haven't countered me here. bleach is a verse that has a specific ability towards speed. here we go, let me explain for u quick
> 
> If someone blitz me but I can see it, but not dodge it that's fast, but when I cant see or dodge that's STUPID FAST. in order to hit blitz a normal human wihout them even perceiving it u would have to be moving at least a couple hundred mph. Now that's a huuuuge gap in speed there. SO ... again yama blitz beings who can move across miles in a single seond (stark). Miles in a second IS quantifiable. Stop trying to deny bleach speed feats




All that does is give kenpachi senses equal to his combat level - hypersonic at best.
couple hundred MPH means nada, nor does miles in a second, when we get to mach 2000.
Blitzing someone moving 1 Mile per second, incidentally, at 20 meters requires 20 Miles per second, or mach 94, meaning shit-all.

however, the blitz trope is treated as just that here - a trope. We use it to determine they're much faster than the characters they blitzed by an unquantifiable amount and that's it. It falls under powerscaling, which is something not allowed here.

of course, please do quantify where Starrk moved a mile in a single second. All we know of starrk is he got away from ichigo and Kenpachi quickly and his initial instant of movement was fast enough they didn't track it. 

Tosen was below kenpachi in general stats at the time and relied on his bankai, so the kenpachi thing is good for general skill and awareness but useless vs. someone like Akainu - particularly since you can't scale that in any meaningful or quantifiable form to Yamamoto, at least not with a speed beyond "mach 14" attached. in other words, something meaningless to Yama.


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## Tacocat (Mar 29, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> It could also be given the "Gin's Bankai" treatment as well.



Or Kubo could draw a panel showing the distance between the Royal Palace and the Seireitei and muddle things up with visual contradiction again


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

People Love to ignore bleach speed feets. So how about this. I was making comparisons to HUMAN level feats. I aid if someone was to blitz me and I seen it coming it would mean they had to have a big speed gap ... Example byakuya moving so fast ichi couldn't see or react... that the equivalent of getting hit with an object moving out of my range of perception ... then ichi down right blitz byakuya, that alone must be ahugggge speed increase. All this bs about unquantifiable Is not true. I just explained that blitzing someone to the point where they cant even see it coming or react means that u are vastly faster. Which means even if absolute fodder bleach characters moved at mach 1 then to downright blitz without the enemy noticing means they move at least several times faster. THat means that uur about mach 5... applying this logic in bleach because it happens all the time in bleach High tier bleach characters ESPECIALLY yama is easily above hypersonic +


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## shade0180 (Mar 29, 2015)

> People Love to ignore bleach speed feets.



Er what.... Kubo fails to portray this.. we don't ignore it.. the problem is we can't prove it... because kubo hasn't drawn it and even if he did drew it he himself contradicts it after a few chapters.. which again makes the whole calc speed unusable....


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 29, 2015)

Tacocat said:


> Albeit, Bach's speed is undergoing consideration right now. But he's been on some next level shit recently. Also, it's Bleach, so it might result in the never-ending "wait-till-next-chapter" conclusion.


Never a proper answer to those stairs.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

HOW?????!!!! Bleach characters move vast distances in relatively no time at all. how is this not quantifiable? people love to downplay. If I move from my laptop to the end of the block in half a second that is absolutely quantifiable. At least super sonic CASUALLY and that's only the end of my block. These bleach characters move even farther in less time. Stop wanking people. People justwant to make bleach seem slow. Wasn't a certain bleach character using a water based attack that cut through steel? making that said water at least super sonic? and another bleach character easily dodged it (fodder I might add) u see if Naruto was to do this, It would be brought up all the time, but people tend to want to ignore solid movement feets/ reaction feets. 

Like I aid kenpachi was reacting at hypersonic level. the dude was fodder (in terms of speed) we have ichigo blocking millions of hypersonic blades in a 360 degree in a matter of seconds. And compared to yamaa that version of ichi is lol FODDER... anyone else wanna downplay? akainu gets blitzed. Checkmate


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## Brightsteel (Mar 29, 2015)

> HOW?????!!!! Bleach characters move vast distances in relatively no time at all. how is this not quantifiable? people love to downplay. If I move from my laptop to the end of the block in half a second that is absolutely quantifiable. At least super sonic CASUALLY and that's only the end of my block. These bleach characters move even farther in less time. Stop wanking people. People justwant to make bleach seem slow. Wasn't a certain bleach character using a water based attack that cut through steel? making that said water at least super sonic? and another bleach character easily dodged it (fodder I might add) u see if Naruto was to do this, It would be brought up all the time, but people tend to want to ignore solid movement feets/ reaction feets.
> 
> Like I aid kenpachi was reacting at hypersonic level. the dude was fodder (in terms of speed) we have ichigo blocking millions of hypersonic blades in a 360 degree in a matter of seconds. And compared to yamaa that version of ichi is lol FODDER... anyone else wanna downplay? akainu gets blitzed. Checkmate





/10char


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## Tacocat (Mar 29, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> People Love to ignore bleach speed feets. So how about this. I was making comparisons to HUMAN level feats. I aid if someone was to blitz me and I seen it coming it would mean they had to have a big speed gap ... Example byakuya moving so fast ichi couldn't see or react... that the equivalent of getting hit with an object moving out of my range of perception ... then ichi down right blitz byakuya, that alone must be ahugggge speed increase. All this bs about unquantifiable Is not true. I just explained that blitzing someone to the point where they cant even see it coming or react means that u are vastly faster. Which means even if absolute fodder bleach characters moved at mach 1 then to downright blitz without the enemy noticing means they move at least several times faster. THat means that uur about mach 5... applying this logic in bleach because it happens all the time in bleach High tier bleach characters ESPECIALLY yama is easily above hypersonic +



Look, fam, I'm not going to entertain you if you're not going to bother to read and understand what's going on and what cross-fiction vs analysis consists of, especially if you're going to just wave it off as Bleach getting the short end of the stick.

>OP top tier characters like Akainu are hilariously above human level, so what Yama can do from a human's perspective is irrelevant.
>Bleach _heavily_ involves blitztrope, which means instances of Bleach characters blitzing each other are dubious at best
>In the event that a blitz is somehow proven to be legit, extrapolation like that is what we call calc stacking. One may not take a calc-derived speed value and use it to calculate another, higher speed value. This leads to inflation, regardless of how the internal scale works.
>We already consider both Bleach and OP characters to be far faster than baseline hypersonic so that's about as relevant as the building level stuff you were going on about.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> /10char



In all seriousness whenever something happens in Naruto ... it gets brought up. But let it happen in bleach and ... its all of a sudden "unquantifiable" Bleach characters get downplayed. That's why I am so persistant. Movin miles in seoncds is quantifiable by a scientific formula for speed and distance. Yet no one even tries to use this. Because they know darn well it puts bleach high tiers well above Naruto in speed. That's why its laughed at. I don't know why.


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## Regicide (Mar 29, 2015)

Gotta keep Bleach down


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## AgentAAA (Mar 29, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> In all seriousness whenever something happens in Naruto ... it gets brought up. But let it happen in bleach and ... its all of a sudden "unquantifiable" Bleach characters get downplayed. That's why I am so persistant. Movin miles in seoncds is quantifiable by a scientific formula for speed and distance. Yet no one even tries to use this. Because they know darn well it puts bleach high tiers well above Naruto in speed. That's why its laughed at. I don't know why.



nardo top tiers are mach 4000, and it wasn't determined by blitztrope at all. there is no double standard on that front in the slightest, All of the naruto speed values are derived either through moving a very large physically travelled distance in a short timeframe, or from dodging a very fast attack that does the same in a certain timeframe.

Miles in seconds is fine, but you need to calculate them actually doing this before you bother bringing it up.


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## shade0180 (Mar 29, 2015)

> But let it happen in bleach and ... its all of a sudden "unquantifiable"



Er no.... DC wise Bleach has a lot of calc... The problem with speed is, is that Kishi draws the background far more than... Kubo... Kubo leaves his background white that there's nothing to tell how much the difference between two characters..... or how far the projectile flew....


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## Tacocat (Mar 29, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Gotta keep Bleach down



Bruh, don't feed it...


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## Solar (Mar 29, 2015)

Gotta make Roman Piece look strong.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

Tacocat said:


> Look, fam, I'm not going to entertain you if you're not going to bother to read and understand what's going on and what cross-fiction vs analysis consists of, especially if you're going to just wave it off as Bleach getting the short end of the stick.
> 
> >OP top tier characters like Akainu are hilariously above human level, so what Yama can do from a human's perspective is irrelevant.
> >Bleach _heavily_ involves blitztrope, which means instances of Bleach characters blitzing each other are dubious at best
> ...



Fam? o_0 ok buddy lets go through this. Since u think calling me fam makes u look cool (which It doesn't) first off I never said what yama could do to a humans perpective. I was using human vs human in those instances. Yama does this to high class senior captains. Outright blitzing the gigai forms of shunsui and ukitake who are easily hypersonic. Again "FAM" if I move from my location to another lovation MILES AWAY that makes me hyper sonic CASUALLY ... whats so hard to understand. Akainu gets blitzed. Nothing to do with anything else.

Its common sense. Object A moves to point B in half a second. Point B is mils away. Object A must be moving at hyperonic speed, or else the object would not be able to reach point B in said time. That is a fact. You can throw all the words u want at me. But in real life, an object moving miles in a second is EASILY Hypersonic. and if stark can move miles with a SINGLE sonido and shunsui matched him. and yama BLITZ shunsui AND ukitake multiple times before they can even perceive it, he is EASILY High hypersonic +

AGAIN! akainu not tagging yama... prove me wrong, oh wait all u have are insults and funny icons ... and words like "fam"


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## Tacocat (Mar 29, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Fam? o_0 ok buddy lets go through this. Since u think calling me fam makes u look cool (which It doesn't)


What?  Would you rather I call you dude? Bro? Don't look too much into it 



> first off I never said what yama could do to a humans perpective. I was using human vs human in those instances. Yama does this to high class senior captains. Outright blitzing the gigai forms of shunsui and ukitake who are easily hypersonic. Again "FAM" if I move from my location to another lovation MILES AWAY that makes me hyper sonic CASUALLY ... whats so hard to understand. Akainu gets blitzed. Nothing to do with anything else.


Except these are blatant superhumans. Talking about normal human bullshit does absolutely nothing for you.

And that's great, but that does't mean anything. You keep saying Bleach has all these feats, and that's fine, but OP has them, too. Your blitzfeatz don't boost Yama above Akainu because of how blitztrope is represented and the fact that we don't allow inflation via calc stacking (which would boost OP, too, I might add). Bleach has speed of its own, it is true, but OPverse has better speed feats as things stand, ergo OP is faster than Bleach.

Basically, all you're doing is saying Yama has blitz feats that hold merit in his own verse. Yes, congratulations. What you're not considering is that this doesn't automatically make him faster than Akainu because Akainu, lo and behold, has feats that he scales to as well.



> Its common sense. Object A moves to point B in half a second. Point B is mils away. Object A must be moving at hyperonic speed, or else the object would not be able to reach point B in said time. That is a fact. You can throw all the words u want at me. But in real life, an object moving miles in a second is EASILY Hypersonic. and if stark can move miles with a SINGLE sonido and shunsui matched him. and yama BLITZ shunsui AND ukitake multiple times before they can even perceive it, he is EASILY High hypersonic +


You're talking to a kid who has 135 odd accepted calcs under his belt, the majority of which are speed calcs; you're preaching to the fucking choir 

What you don't get is this means nothing by itself.



> AGAIN! akainu not tagging yama... prove me wrong, oh wait all u have are insults and funny icons ... and words like "fam"



Er, do you know what fam means?

In any case, your logical fallacy stems from the fact that Yama has blitz feats and is hypersonic, so you assume he is inherently faster than Akainu...even though you don't know shit about how fast Akainu is.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

Tacocat said:


> What?  Would you rather I call you dude? Bro? Don't look too much into it
> 
> 
> Except these are blatant superhumans. Talking about normal human bullshit does absolutely nothing for you.
> ...



I like debating with you. Theres a lot of action going on. STILL u lose. A object moving miles per second is hypersonic casually. Google it. ANd to be able to blitz something capable of moving that fast would mean u are faaar faster. DEAL WITH IT. idc how many calcs u have. Its called logic and common sense. object a moves hyperonic. Object b moves faster. so fast that object b couldn't even see nor avoide it. Is It too complicated for u? This is a legit power scale bro. if I tag the flash while hes moving at top speed without said flash realizing it I am LEAGUES above said flash. 

U don't even need formulas for this. IDC what akainu is powerscaled from. Logic stands higher. and like I said, he blitzed hypersonic multiple times ... what feats do akainu have exatly that put him on yamas speed level? post scans


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## shade0180 (Mar 29, 2015)

I'm not even sure If I can take this guy seriously anymore....


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## AgentAAA (Mar 29, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> HOW?????!!!! Bleach characters move vast distances in relatively no time at all. how is this not quantifiable? people love to downplay. If I move from my laptop to the end of the block in half a second that is absolutely quantifiable. At least super sonic CASUALLY and that's only the end of my block. These bleach characters move even farther in less time. Stop wanking people. People justwant to make bleach seem slow. Wasn't a certain bleach character using a water based attack that cut through steel? making that said water at least super sonic? and another bleach character easily dodged it (fodder I might add) u see if Naruto was to do this, It would be brought up all the time, but people tend to want to ignore solid movement feets/ reaction feets.
> 
> Like I aid kenpachi was reacting at hypersonic level. the dude was fodder (in terms of speed) we have ichigo blocking millions of hypersonic blades in a 360 degree in a matter of seconds. And compared to yamaa that version of ichi is lol FODDER... anyone else wanna downplay? akainu gets blitzed. Checkmate



yeah, super sonic is fine.
We have them at mach 29 for most of them
that's 29 times the speed of sound.
so not remotely denying they're supersonic or hypersonic.
4th arc and higher might even be getting mach 2000 here soon.
No one denied they were supersonic or hypersonic.
However:
29 times the speed of sound is where they sit.
2000 times the speed of sound is where Akainu sits.
You don't like it?
go calc something and prove they're faster.
otherwise don't bother.

we were denying stacking using blitz tropes.

for the same reason we don't have goku at like galaxy level by stacking power level.
if you wanna play the powerstacking game go play somewhere else.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> I'm not even sure If I can take this guy seriously anymore....



Really? posting a scan isn't hard. Its how a debate works. I haven't been proven wrong yet. Just a bunch of pointless icons and people failing to comprehend how the laws of physics work. U can gang up on me that's fine. I take it no one is gunna take the time to actually prove me wrong, probally shrug it off as if u have something better to do... fine... but laws of physics are on my side with speed. The thing that people just don't want to accept, is thatbleach fodder is faster than most Naruto characters save for telipoters. They like to down grade and say... unquantifiable. I honestly don't care about looking bad, I care about being proven right or wrong. Milles in a second are still miles in a second... still casually hypersonic ...still gunna get ignored dispite having 100 percent accuracy in my claims. Still miles in a second is faster than any Naruto character has done... still bleach getting downplayed ...


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## Tacocat (Mar 29, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> A object moving miles per second is hypersonic casually. Google it. ANd to be able to blitz something capable of moving that fast would mean u are faaar faster. DEAL WITH IT. idc how many calcs u have. Its called logic and common sense. object a moves hyperonic. Object b moves faster. so fast that object b couldn't even see nor avoide it. Is It too complicated for u? This is a legit power scale bro. if I tag the flash while hes moving at top speed without said flash realizing it I am LEAGUES above said flash.


This is known. Distance/time and relative velocity are, like, 1st grade science, and they're self-evident even earlier. That doesn't make it relevant. We already hold Yama at mach 250 (at least, not following all the shit that's being debated in the metadome). Again, you're preaching to the choir 



> U don't even need formulas for this. IDC what akainu is powerscaled from. Logic stands higher. and like I said, he blitzed hypersonic multiple times ... what feats do akainu have exatly that put him on yamas speed level? post scans




As GM measured , high-tiers have movement relative to the velocity of that meteor.

That's the point; you _should_ care what Akainu is powerscaled to if you're going to say Yama is faster than Akainu. Otherwise you're just saying Yama is fast...to which we reply, "Duh."


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

Tacocat said:


> This is known. Distance/time and relative velocity are, like, 1st grade science, and they're self-evident even earlier. That doesn't make it relevant. We already hold Yama at mach 250 (at least, not following all the shit that's being debated in the metadome). Again, you're preaching to the choir
> 
> 
> 
> ...



MACH 1958??? are u really serious. No way is akainu evenremotely that fast. Bcause that's what I think u are implying. Here we go again. U ready to use laws of physics and calcs in ur own argument but rfuse to accept them In mine. First of all Ive seen akainu move and he is no absolutely no where as fast as yama. Its called plot device if he is. The same way amteasu is supposedly hotter than the sun but cant burn samurai armor. U need consistency. He has never started moving that fast. Bleach characters however do move fast and CONSISTANLY ... still not beating my argument. U can sit there and be proud of a calc that isn't consistan all u want it still don't change the fact. 

Yama still tags hyper sonics like its nothing. Akainu isn't that fast. sorry bro. like with amaterasu. its hot when it needs to be for the storyline but at the end of the day consistency prevails ... nice try though its robally why u waited so long to pull out the calc lol


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

Hmmm, I might have to get ready for work tommoro... 5:00 am to 1:30 pm so cant keep debating ... but like I said. Ive seen akainu... o yama relases bankai gg ... nothing to debate here anymore


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## B Rabbit (Mar 29, 2015)

Usually when people like Doflamingo are reacting to those meteors then Akainu has to be that fast.


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## Imagine (Mar 29, 2015)

This thread gets better and better


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## AgentAAA (Mar 29, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> MACH 1958??? are u really serious. No way is akainu evenremotely that fast. Bcause that's what I think u are implying. Here we go again. U ready to use laws of physics and calcs in ur own argument but rfuse to accept them In mine. First of all Ive seen akainu move and he is no absolutely no where as fast as yama. Its called plot device if he is. The same way amteasu is supposedly hotter than the sun but cant burn samurai armor. U need consistency. He has never started moving that fast. Bleach characters however do move fast and CONSISTANLY ... still not beating my argument. U can sit there and be proud of a calc that isn't consistan all u want it still don't change the fact.
> 
> Yama still tags hyper sonics like its nothing. Akainu isn't that fast. sorry bro. like with amaterasu. its hot when it needs to be for the storyline but at the end of the day consistency prevails ... nice try though its robally why u waited so long to pull out the calc lol



the fuck is this bullshit? Have you never read one piece? blitz trope is just as used there as in bleach.
Ignoring that: Calling it plot device is bullshit when it's calculated speeds that has nothing to do with the plot. At the moment, you're using the vaunted: "I don't like it so it doesn't count" trope.

If you want to try arguing consistent ends, go to spergbattles. The OBD uses high-ends while excluding huge outliers. otherwise Yama reallty would just be in the hypersonic range rather than the MHS we currently put him at because every movement he's shown doesn't exactly match up that fast.


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## Sablés (Mar 29, 2015)

Imagine said:


> This thread gets better and better



I'm just waiting for a CAPS war


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## Tacocat (Mar 29, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> MACH 1958??? are u really serious. No way is akainu evenremotely that fast. Bcause that's what I think u are implying. Here we go again. U ready to use laws of physics and calcs in ur own argument but rfuse to accept them In mine. First of all Ive seen akainu move and he is no absolutely no where as fast as yama.


So...because you say so. Your opinion is a law of physics? Be still my heart, we have found the holy grail to the scientific community.



> Its called plot device if he is. The same way amteasu is supposedly hotter than the sun but cant burn samurai armor.


Er, no, this is a feat while Amaterasu being hotter than the sun is a statement. We don't even deny that it's hotter than the sun; there's no reason to believe it can't be when the armor you're talking about dresses blatantly superhuman beings.



> U need consistency. He has never started moving that fast. Bleach characters however do move fast and CONSISTANLY ... still not beating my argument. U can sit there and be proud of a calc that isn't consistan all u want it still don't change the fact.


My apologies, Overlord of Spacetime. You make the rules, of course, even where fiction is involved. Blitztrope is, indeed, the only manner by which to portray the internal consistency of a fiction's speed, and not  that fiction may posses. Blitztrope is the only thing that matters. I am enlightened.



> Yama still tags hyper sonics like its nothing. Akainu isn't that fast. sorry bro. like with amaterasu. its hot when it needs to be for the storyline but at the end of the day consistency prevails ... nice try though its robally why u waited so long to pull out the calc lol


You're so right. Wow.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

I came back online just to peek at the comments... to my surprise lol. u see the problem with everyone here is that they simply don't want to accept yamas speed. Blitz trophe this blitz trophe that. I never stated because I wanted to. I was simple saying miles per second is hype sonic. that's what the laws of physics say, and that's a casual yama flash step. There Is no debunking it. If an object accelerates to miles per second it is HYPER SONIC CASUALLY. I can use this to accurately potray speed because I know have a lower limit. His lower limits are at LEAST hypersonic. as seen where he blits characters who can casually move miles in a second as if they were moving slow to him. 

Stop talking about blitz trophe. If A moves hyper sonic and B casually blitzes A like its nothing than do the math. U don't need big calcs for common sense. I see this all the time in these threads. U like to dismiss my methods as "blitz trophe" yet justify ur own INCONSISTANT speed feets. if akainu was really that fast he would constantly be blitzing people in the OP verse... (WHICH HE NEVER DOES) sorry bleach is the most consistant speed verse among the hst. They even have a specific tech devoted for speed. 

OK ILL TALK FOR U ... the thing that blitz the thing that is hypersonic is faaaaaar faster. Saying itsblitz trophe isn't helping u cause its consitant and yama has completely fodderized hyper sonic characters. If I legitimately blitz the flash at his best that puts me above light speed. NO? then if I legitamatley blitz a hyper sonic character (multiple times) than I am casually hypersonic + ... easily High hyper sonic + lord all mighty common sense is lacking here. U can say blitz trophe all u want but its true. Yama is too fast. Akainu doesn't blitz anyone even REMOTELY... hes not blitzing yama


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## Dr. White (Mar 29, 2015)

Why are people still responding to him lol.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

Now I really am gunna leave... I might get back on to see the sad attemps of putting akainu at lol MACH 1958... such bs wanking man... oh well checkmate


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Why are people still responding to him lol.



o_0 Say what u want. I posted details about water cutting through steel, kenpachi reacting with nothing but touch at the last second etc ... people like to forget these things. u wanna add to the humiliation go ahead. By saying "why are people still responding to him" isn't really proving me wrong. Like I said laws of physics states an object mobving miles per second are easily hyper sonic. Science words, not just my own. Deal with it


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## Tacocat (Mar 29, 2015)

And moving meters in a millisecond is also hypersonic. But of course you already know that, don't you Physics Overlord?

The fact that Akainu doesn't blitz assholes all over the place is because the guys he fights are of similar speeds. Relative velocity and all...right, Physics Overlord?

I mean, we already know he's entirely capable of blitzing other character in his verse given showings for relative fodder like Kuro and CP9. Is this a test, Physics Overlord?


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## Piecesis (Mar 29, 2015)

Imagine said:


> This thread gets better and better



It's only a matter of time before this thread gets locked


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## MAPSK (Mar 29, 2015)

Wow, this guy. What is it with annoying trolls and not even bothering to spellcheck or use proper punctuation? You can still be immature and annoying without abusing the english language, you know.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> Wow, this guy. What is it with annoying trolls and not even bothering to spellcheck or use proper punctuation? You can still be immature and annoying without abusing the english language, you know.



first off im not a troll. why when i give solid feats i get labeled asa troll. in life people have diferent opnions. deal with it. just because im not n ur side im not a troll. btw thething people dont understand  here is something called consistency. even in science if it isnt duable a second time we dont accept it. for example speed of light in a vacuum is always constant.  u dont gt inconsistent  bs. a character moving at mach 1958 ? no buddy not happening definately not akainu. like i said

amaterasu burns through goad fireproof  stomach inone panel cant burn armor in another. INCONsistant is INconsitant. dont vet mad and try to label me as a groll because u cant prove me wrong. btw all the times that akainu could of used mach 1958 speed yet he didnt ..sorry bro not consistency


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## Imagine (Mar 29, 2015)

It's like it's 2012 again


----------



## Genki Rocket (Mar 29, 2015)

Came back here for the first time in years to find this quality posting.

Good to see nothing has changed.


----------



## Mexikorn (Mar 29, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> Wow, this guy. *What is it with annoying trolls *and not even bothering to spellcheck or use proper punctuation? You can still be immature and annoying without abusing the english language, you know.



I heard someone say my name?


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Mar 29, 2015)

the levels of b8 in this thread are strong


----------



## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Kuroi, last chance.
> 
> I'm not in this debate and i don't care who wins. I just want you to admit you're an idiot so that i can rep for your honesty like a good little shitposter.
> 
> ...



do what u wish. i gotta go let my friends know akainu is now mach 1958


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## Blαck (Mar 30, 2015)

Imagine said:


> It's like it's 2012 again



Right? We need a few posters like this guy to pick things up


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 30, 2015)

I mean, I'd call you out for arguing from belief, but we already know your beliefs are laws of physics, so I don't really know what to say.


----------



## Bulma (Mar 30, 2015)

I don't know how this thread is going, but is Yama-jii behind due to raw power or speed?


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> First of all Ive seen akainu move and he is no absolutely no where as fast as yama.



KuroiMugetsu confirmed OP character.

Hey, bro, I think you're full of shit. Convince me otherwise.
In three sentences, list your arguments, lemme take them down. No wall of text, just three simple sentences.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Its a site that talks about imaginary people who don't exist. Neg me all u want is this supposed to change my mind or scare or hurt me? is this the best u can come up with? Im here talking about legit feats of a character. and since I don't believe that akainu isn't mach 1958 I get negged? woooow.... this forums common sense has left the building ... like I said idc. im not interested in being liked. Im interested in being PROVEN wrong or right not criticized. Dude get over ur self "NEgged" lol like I care ... still doesn't prove jack im right still ... ok gn



This is the one piece of advice I'll give you

Lurk more

Check the blogs for calcs and other shit to get a better understanding of how shit works. Use the battledome questions thread to get a feel for how the section works

Otherwise your time here is going to be VERY, VERY unpleasant.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 30, 2015)

>bang implying he's better than this guy in any way


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## Regicide (Mar 30, 2015)

Harsh.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 30, 2015)

The blogs are horrible to search through. If I don't get something through google, a profile or something like that I give up.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> whatever man ...  guess since no one is actually debating against me I did go a bit over board.



sigh... look, I'll give you a few things to look at as a bone for at least posting on the board. Firstly, lurking is generally good until you get the swing of things here. We flat-out don't do things similar to a lot of other boards.

1. Do expect people to throw high-ends at you and ignore "consistency"/author portrayal. Unless there's heavy reason to consider contradiction it just flat out is treated as an acceptable high-end. Otherwise we'd have even more debates on DBZ's position since they only blow up planets once or twice, but are considered small planet level to star level here.

We do this to remove bias based on "portrayal"(which is subjective) or "Consistency"(Which isn't really necessary when many feats are meant to specifically embody power).

This does mean akainu is considered mach 2000 by the majority here. It also means DBZ is similarly fast due to dodging piccolo's moonblasting ki blasts on a regular basis. Neither happen all the time, but neither are contradicted either.


2. If you don't like a calc plainly show what's wrong with it or don't bother. OBD uses calcs, and we consider them above portrayal and hype in every way. We don't care about portrayal here and generally ignore even author contradictions in how we place character stats.

If you have an issue with a calc because it's wrong, that's fine. if you have an issue with calcs in general... spacebattles will always take you, but those are our law here.


3. When arguing against something here... please make sure you're informed on the subject, maybe check out the wiki. One of the main issues people here have is that you have yet to produce an argument we haven't heard many times and will likely hear 10 times more before the end of the year at least. after you've stated the same refutations to the same argument 10 times...

 well, eventually you stop bothering and just make the last page or so of this thread happen instead.


----------



## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> sigh... look, I'll give you a few things to look at as a bone for at least posting on the board. Firstly, lurking is generally good until you get the swing of things here. We flat-out don't do things similar to a lot of other boards.
> 
> 1. Do expect people to throw high-ends at you and ignore "consistency"/author portrayal. Unless there's heavy reason to consider contradiction it just flat out is treated as an acceptable high-end. Otherwise we'd have even more debates on DBZ's position since they only blow up planets once or twice, but are considered small planet level to star level here.
> 
> ...



In other word what u guys say is right? Listen I understand this hole calc thing. Not trying to troll, Im being for real. However mach 1958 is not even remotely realistic. If someone is really that fast they should be able to duplicate said speed. Common sense ok. No disrespect but that's how physics work in the real world as well. Something happenening once accounts for nothing. That's like saying a soda can moved at the speed of light (for some unknown reason) it happened once so therefore soda cans are no LS ... no. The thing is 

COnsistancy is power. WHo cares if he moved mach 1958 IF HE ONLY EVER DID SO 1 TIME! ... comparing that to dbz is pointless because absolute fodder like frieza has demonstrated he can bust a planet casually... and fight on the level of others who CONSISTANTLY do the same. Its not like it happened only once in the series and stopped happenening. 

This forum Wanks to no end ... one time only feats that will never be replicable in other words akainu maybe mach 1958, but only in that one particular circumstance since his feat is NON REPLICABLE! no consitstancy is not my fault. never is akainu gunna be mach 1958. Its not me accepting what I want and not accepting what I don't... its called logic and common sense... those are the two key factors... just like amaterasu melting instantaneously and then not doing so the next panel is inconsistent... not making it up its cannon fact. Is samurai armor supposed to be more fire resistant than the inside of a fire resistant toad? the answer is no... amataerasu = normal fire at best (not consistant)

Akainu = well super sonic to hyperonic at best (not consistant) get some consistant feats... don't compare to dbz characters who bust planets (CONSISTANTLY) tosomeone who somehow move fast once for story plot


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## Imagine (Mar 30, 2015)

>Not realistic
>Said character can turn into magma

Ay


----------



## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> In other word what u guys say is right? Listen I understand this hole calc thing. Not trying to troll, Im being for real. However mach 1958 is not even remotely realistic.


Fiction has regularly made people thousands of times faster than light, able to move across entire galaxies in seconds. There are cthuloid beings that can destroy the universe with the action of waking up, octopus teachers who blow holes in a moon for fun, beings that create universes, and beings that can fodderize those universe-creators. Realism isn't a worry.



> If someone is really that fast they should be able to duplicate said speed. Common sense ok. No disrespect but that's how physics work in the real world as well. Something happenening once accounts for nothing. That's like saying a soda can moved at the speed of light (for some unknown reason) it happened once so therefore soda cans are no LS ... no. The thing is


gonna stop you here.
If a soda can moved once at lightspeed, it was propelled at lightspeed at one time. the person who did it by scientific fact did something at lightspeed at that point. 
Particularly since Akainu is moving at this speed at combat speed, not travel speed, we can assume his subordinate he's getting scaled to is moving that fast consistently in combat. We have no way of constantly measuring due to the fact we're scaling a manga.
That said:
Usain Bold moved at 27 MPH
one time.
If we got rid of every bit of other running past that, it wouldn't change the fact he undoubtedly achieved that and can move at those speeds.




> COnsistancy is power. WHo cares if he moved mach 1958 IF HE ONLY EVER DID SO 1 TIME! ... comparing that to dbz is pointless because absolute fodder like frieza has demonstrated he can bust a planet casually... and fight on the level of others who CONSISTANTLY do the same. Its not like it happened only once in the series and stopped happenening.


you're right.
it happened twice.
Earth was blown up once
namek was blown up once.
At that point since the showings are so disparate, and since we see hundreds of attacks in-between that aren't planetbusting at all, by consistent end we'd have to assume they're sitting in megatons since that's where even their end of series attacks casually sit.
It happened twice, and since we don't know the size of namek, we could always assume it's not a planetbusting feat by assuming it's a small planet, which would just leave buu's vanishing ball.
matter of fact we can assume frieza's feat isn't planetbusting since it only happened once and the next time it was replicated, two arcs later, it seemed to take a lot of charge time and power for Kid Buu to manage it. In other words, looks like an outlier going by "consistent end"

If you want to bring up the "but if fodder can do it" argument - Akainu's getting scaling for this mach 2000 from people who are fodder in comparison to him.



> This forum Wanks to no end ... one time only feats that will never be replicable in other words akainu maybe mach 1958, but only in that one particular circumstance since his feat is NON REPLICABLE!


Says who?
It's something from a recent arc and certainly not contradicted by anything else in the manga.
though if you want to call akainu and set up a test of some sort by my guest. however, he hasn't failed to react to shit quickly, and for the most part only people on his level, who are rare, manage to hit him.
as a result, one can assume he's moving at that speed consistently, just as we imagine yamamoto's moving at several hundred times the speed of sound consistently even though he doesn't give us constant visual evidence.



> no consitstancy is not my fault. never is akainu gunna be mach 1958. Its not me accepting what I want and not accepting what I don't... its called logic and common sense... those are the two key factors... just like amaterasu melting instantaneously and then not doing so the next panel is inconsistent... not making it up its cannon fact. Is samurai armor supposed to be more fire resistant than the inside of a fire resistant toad? the answer is no... amataerasu = normal fire at best (not consistant)


They were magical samurai wearing magical armor and using magical weapons to channel their chakra through. not normal steel in the slightest.

Sauce's ameterasu also doesn't get itachi's ameterasu as scaling anyway since it varies in power.

and fun fact... The only reason(not saying it's not a good one, just saying the only reason) one would disregard ameterasu as being as hot as the sun is due to it being a hyperbolic statement from a non-omniscient source. If the narrative itself or a calculator stated "Hot as the sun." it's not as though we disregard that.

Lastly just so you know.... hot as the sun is only multi city block level DC, so we have ameterasu scaled as higher due to weaker characters causing more destruction.
The sun is very hot, but most of it's energy comes more from the fact it's very big, so the ameterasu would only be double to triple digit in TNT, nothing compared to, say, bijuudama.


you don't get to disregard a feat on low ends or we'd have DBZ down because of just that one instance where you see goku get hurt by a punch that only knocked him a couple meters away.
If we sit here focusing on the low ends and assume the high ends don't matter because one example contradicts, we get nowhere.

I do love the "logic and common sense" argument though - so logically we're supposed to flat out pretend certain things don't happen in the series at all? That seems more like "ignoring evidence" which isn't common sense.



> Akainu = well super sonic to hyperonic at best (not consistant) get some consistant feats... don't compare to dbz characters who bust planets (CONSISTANTLY) tosomeone who somehow move fast once for story plot


I don't think you've noticed how OP works, but the characters are easily hypersonic by consistent feats. though if you want consistent feats consistently show me yamamoto doing anything more than hypersonic.

If you want to bring up "blitzes hypersonic characters", Akainu does that too, so you need to look for something better than that. 

albeit I'd like to know the evidence for akainu being super to hypersonic at best since you didn't even have an idea of FT speed feats. characters much weaker than him were constantly showing triple-digit mach showings before now. We have rob lucci at mach 100-something, so mach 2000 ain't the biggest jump.

A bigger jump would be 23rd tournament DB characters going from mach 89 to mach 4500 the next arc and then sitting about there till they got LS+ for BoG top tiers.


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 30, 2015)

AAA there's also a big leap of speed  from gurren lagann... From something that wasn't even MHS to MFTL. in a matter of a few episodes...


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> AAA there's also a big leap of speed  from gurren lagann... From something that wasn't even MHS to MFTL. in a matter of a few episodes...



that so?
Thank you for reminding me of that, been meaning to put it on my list of things to read/watch
I'll get to it after the next arc of JJBA and finishing OPM.


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## Sherlōck (Mar 30, 2015)

Tacocat said:


> I mean, I'd call you out for arguing from belief, but we already know your beliefs are laws of physics, so I don't really know what to say.



That moment when you realize you lost.


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## Darth Niggatron (Mar 30, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> >bang implying he's better than this guy in any way



Pls, Dartg, is that anyway to say hi? 



Regicide said:


> Harsh.



You get used to it, I guess.


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## SunRise (Mar 30, 2015)

*Fujita*, proof that Yama should emit something?  Can you even proof it? Stop pulling shit out of thin air please.

If you can't proof it - we can use any timeframe because nothing implies he radiates anything - he just have it - he is not like Sun or heater - it is fictional technique nothing says it should work like that - generate Teraton per second or millisecond or whatever = it's not how this  should work. 1 second is for simple and reasonable timeframe.


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## Tacocat (Mar 30, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> That moment when you realize you lost.


The embarrassing thing is I lost before I even posted 



VioletHood said:


> *Fujita*, proof that Yama should emit something?  Can you even proof it? Stop pulling shit out of thin air please.
> 
> If you can't proof it - we can use any timeframe because nothing implies he radiates anything - he just have it - he is not like Sun or heater - it is fictional technique nothing says it should work like that - generate Teraton per second or millisecond or whatever = it's not how this  should work. 1 second is for simple and reasonable timeframe.



What? The calc is radiation energy flux, which is power. There is inherently a time-frame involved 

If you want to argue it doesn't work like that then there is no calc.


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## Regicide (Mar 30, 2015)

I can't tell if he's actually read the calc or not.


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## Fujita (Mar 30, 2015)

VioletHood said:


> *Fujita*, proof that Yama should emit something?  Can you even proof it? Stop pulling shit out of thin air please.
> 
> If you can't proof it - we can use any timeframe because nothing implies he radiates anything - he just have it - he is not like Sun or heater - it is fictional technique nothing says it should work like that - generate Teraton per second or millisecond or whatever = it's not how this  should work. 1 second is for simple and reasonable timeframe.







			
				Regi's calc said:
			
		

> Take the radiation calculator and plug in 15,000,000 degrees C, 2 m^2 (human surface area, flame armor covers his whole body, roughly), and 0.9 for emissivity.
> 
> You get 5.167*10^21 joules or 1.23 teratons of TNT.





			
				the radiation calculator said:
			
		

> Stefan-Boltzmann Law calculates the radiation energy of a subject surface.



The calc assumes he's radiating energy per unit time, you dolt. If he's not radiating anything, then there is no calc (and no teratons) to begin with.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

aaah back for a second to squash. first off i take it that the hole akainu at mach 1958 thing is debunked. if he wasthat fast hed be blitzeing people from other countries. thats well within mach 1958. just saying. that mesns he can blitz dbz mid tier all at once .. not happening secondly ill be back to debate later. im going to my second job now and cant waste time squashing mach 2000 bs. brb


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## Brightsteel (Mar 30, 2015)

Horrible tolling attempt is horrible.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> aaah back for a second to squash. first off i take it that the hole akainu at mach 1958 thing is debunked. if he wasthat fast hed be blitzeing people from other countries. thats well within mach 1958. just saying. that mesns he can blitz dbz mid tier all at once .. not happening secondly ill be back to debate later. im going to my second job now and cant waste time squashing mach 2000 bs. brb


Again m8, get a feel for how the section works before posting stuff like this

otherwise all you're going to get is mocked and negged to hell and back

I probably shouldn't be bothering but w/e, I'm in a good mood today


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## MAPSK (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> aaah back for a second to squash. first off i take it that the hole akainu at mach 1958 thing is debunked. if he wasthat fast hed be blitzeing people from other countries. thats well within mach 1958. just saying. that mesns he can blitz dbz mid tier all at once .. not happening secondly ill be back to debate later. im going to my second job now and cant waste time squashing mach 2000 bs. brb



... blitzing someone from another country would be a sub-relativistic feat at least, not quad mach. That's a whole order of magnitude you just leapt up 

Besides, this is combat speed we're talking about, not movement speed or travel speed. The scenario you're describing would fall under one of the latter two, whereas most of the HST's major speed feats are combat speed feats i.e. dodging shit that's moving really, really fast. 

Seriously, lurk more. As someone who's destroyed their own reputation once before, I know how hard it is to come back from that


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Lurk? I'm not lurking. It was said that Alain u is Mach 1958 ...let's just say Mach 2000 now. U guys act as if I have no evidence for my claims. Talking about begged this and begged that as if I care. I care about what's wrong and right. So with that said ... akainu is not Mach 1958...that was my ONLY point. Doing something once isn't good enough even in the scientific method we use today. Dont get but hurt that I'm not running away and that I have a solid arguement. And again. Comparing akainus 1 only bizarre speed feat to dbz characters.... who consistently bust planets. And do so on a regular basis. Now if akainu was suddenly introduced as a new character and u used that Calc then it would be more realistic, as to where I'd be hesitant to to deny his only feat (if it was Mach 1958) rather than seeing a character in action and getting an idea just how fast they really are. BTW no one said reaction speed so I was thinking that u meant movement speed. Next time clarify please. I'm still not debunked here. Oh and BTW akainu doesn't have Mach 1958 reaction speed either.... sooo....yea ... 

U seem to think ur Calc has any weight behind it. In all reality the only one capable of doing so is the auther. Who are u to tell me what the speed of an imaginary verse that u didn't create is? ... not anyone important I tell u that. Akainu is not Mach 1958 ... i don't know where the numbers come out but it's from a dark and scarry place.

I thought naruto was bad with their made up Calc as if they actually know how fast characters are moving op takes it to the next level quad level reactions? ... domt think so



Brightsteel said:


> Horrible tolling attempt is horrible.



Ur just mad because I'm not giving up. Like I said I have no intention of being liked. So just display evidence or get owned


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## Brightsteel (Mar 30, 2015)

Your whole argument stems from "because I say so".


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> Your whole argument stems from "because I say so".



Same can be said about urs. Akainu is Mach 1958 ...hmmm because I, say so

U see where this gets us... no wheres... just because u say q character is that fast doesn't mean it's true... never did I say because I say so... my evidence was based on power scaling from hyper sonic characters. I at least had some material to work with Sim info some data. And BTW ur Calc for akainu are a tad bit high dude ... Mach 1958 is a bit too absurd... no one in the hot would be able to even tag him ... that's what I'm saying I don't doubt he's fast but not THAT fast


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## Brightsteel (Mar 30, 2015)

Akainu is Mach 1958 because a weaker character performed a feat that was calculated at Mach 1958 and accepted. 

Not because I say so. 



> . And BTW ur Calc for akainu are a tad bit high dude ... Mach 1958 is a bit too absurd... no one in the hot would be able to even tag him ... that's what I'm saying I don't doubt he's fast but not THAT fast



Care to prove this?


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> Akainu is Mach 1958 because a weaker character performed a feat that was calculated at Mach 1958 and accepted.
> 
> Not because I say so.
> 
> ...



Care to send me a link or scan? Was it in the anime or manga? And how the hell do u know how fast a fictional character is moving to Calc at Mach 1958? U see u use ur own logic to prove u right.  if u can show me a weaker op character moving or reacting at quad digit numbers than accurately power scale than I shall concede ...if not we'll u already know


----------



## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> U see where this gets us... no wheres... just because u say q character is that fast doesn't mean it's true... never did I say because I say so... my evidence was based on power scaling from hyper sonic characters.



I think I've said this before. Powerscaling isn't accepted here due to the amount of jumps you can make. By powerscaling both nardo and bleach are lightspeed due to the multipliers involved with blitz trope multiplying through distance and adding huge multipliers to those shows. OP too. Obviously none of them are even close to LS and constantly show limitations far below those, so...
hell, if I recall correctly, due to it's judicious use of speedblitz trope, Bleach'd actually be faster than DBZ if both used blitztrope to justify speed.

That said: A calc isn't "because we say so". It's measuring a feat shown in the manga in order to most accurately display the feat in question. It's taking a feat from the manga and holding it up to the highest standard of evidence to avoid both wank and downplay of the feat.



> I at least had some material to work with Sim info some data. And BTW ur Calc for akainu are a tad bit high dude ... Mach 1958 is a bit too absurd... no one in the hot would be able to even tag him ... that's what I'm saying I don't doubt he's fast but not THAT fast



you had powerscaling and that's about it.

And Akainu would be taggable given he's getting the speed feat due to lower characters doing it. This feat scales to the other admirals, luffy, doflamingo... he's got plenty of people able to touch him based on that feat.

I don't see how "The calc is too fast" is evidence for the calc being wrong. All that means is you don't like how fast it makes characters in OP - many characters who would thus be consistent in-story.


----------



## Brightsteel (Mar 30, 2015)

> And how the hell do u know how fast a fictional character is moving to Calc at Mach 1958? U see u use ur own logic to prove u right.



What? How do I know, how fast a character calced at moving mach 1958, is moving at mach 1959? 



> if u can show me a weaker op character moving or reacting at quad digit numbers than accurately power scale than I shall concede ...if not we'll u already know



You have utter fodder like Kalfia having triple-digit mach reactions.


----------



## Aphelion (Mar 30, 2015)

Stop.

Fucking.

Replying.


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 30, 2015)

The guy has been trolling since yesterday....


----------



## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Care to send me a link or scan? Was it in the anime or manga? And how the hell do u know how fast a fictional character is moving to Calc at Mach 1958? U see u use ur own logic to prove u right.  if u can show me a weaker op character moving or reacting at quad digit numbers than accurately power scale than I shall concede ...if not we'll u already know



read the blog previously linked here.
It was manga because we use manga as canon here.
We know how fast a fictional character is moving by scaling off reactions to something else that we figured out the speed of in that calc due to a distance/time formula.
Simple science.

Of course, even total fodder like kalifa that Akainu can totally blitz move in mach triple digits.
To blitz those guys would require mach quad digits
meaning that it's an accurate scaling for akainu


----------



## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

U see the thing is u know nothing. Powers along can be used. If abilities are exactly the same . A flash step is hypersonic b flash step just blitzed a. Therefore b I is faster.  I never stated I knew exactly how fast b was. Just saying it's in a category that puts a to shame. No u guys on the other hand claim to absolutely know something therefore Burden of proof is on u, not me. Secondly how do u know if a character has triple or quad digit speeds. I was able to get a general speed because stark was said to move miles with a single sonido.  Something that he can do and has done casually and consistently. Mach 1958? I don't think so.I've seen akainu fight my dude. No where even close. Now stark and shunsui can be power scaled because all it is is speed. Just like how dbz characters use speed strength durability and ki blasts. The higher the power level the higher these things increase. So if one many characters have the same ability there isst really a better way to find a speed than this. Similar abilities u get it?. They operate the same way. Flash set and sonido. Now miles per second can be quantified. speed = distance over time. If a character moves far in a relatively small time than they are fast. deal with it. The formulas are there and what do u have?  Other than no scans and evidence. No author ststement. No clear number just something u Think is correct... check mate boys check mate


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2015)

Aphelion said:


> Stop.
> 
> Fucking.
> 
> Replying.





shade0180 said:


> The guy has been trolling since yesterday....



This shit is crazy.


----------



## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> The guy has been trolling since yesterday....



Yet another meaningless reply.  I have a right to my own opinion just like u do ur own. I've at least given some sort of evidence. I'm not trolling . If I'm such a troll than u should have no problem proving me wrong but yet all u have is. "He's trolling" step ur debating game up a notch


----------



## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> U see the thing is u know nothing. Powers along can be used. If abilities are exactly the same . A flash step is hypersonic b flash step just blitzed a. Therefore b I is faster.  I never stated I knew exactly how fast b was. Just saying it's in a category that puts a to shame. No u guys on the other hand claim to absolutely know something therefore Burden of proof is on u, not me. Secondly how do u know if a character has triple or quad digit speeds. I was able to get a general speed because stark was said to move miles with a single sonido.  Something that he can do and has done casually and consistently. Mach 1958? I don't think so.I've seen akainu fight my dude. No where even close. Now stark and shunsui can be power scaled because all it is is speed. Just like how dbz characters use speed strength durability and ki blasts. The higher the power level the higher these things increase. So if one many characters have the same ability there isst really a better way to find a speed than this. Similar abilities u get it?. They operate the same way. Flash set and sonido. Now miles per second can be quantified. speed = distance over time. If a character moves far in a relatively small time than they are fast. deal with it. The formulas are there and what do u have?  Other than no scans and evidence. No author ststement. No clear number just something u Think is correct... check mate boys check mate



Yes, just like how stark always moves miles and miles every single shunpo.
or maybe that's bullshit.
Read.
the blog.
with scans and evidence.

Miles per second can be quantified.
Show that starrk actually moved a mile.
quantifiable show with scans where he moved a mile.
The only thing you've checkmated is willfully ignoring evidence, bringing up the blitz trope we've stated many times is not accepted, and acting as though miles per second = anything important in either bleach or one piece when both have dodged bullets or similar and are thus already in the miles per second.
what the hell do you think "mach speed" means.

look, I'll throw you a bone here.
Scans and shit.
If you want to ignore that because "it's too fast.". Then you're arguing that akainu isn't fast because he can't be fast, which... is circular logic and a logical fallacy known as "argument from belief".
I'm not going to waste any more time on you if you're going to ignore evidence because "akainu didn't seem that fast to me".


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 30, 2015)

> Yet another meaningless reply. I have a right to my own opinion just like u do ur own. I've at least given some sort of evidence. I'm not trolling . If I'm such a troll than u should have no problem proving me wrong but yet all u have is. "He's trolling" step ur debating game up a notch



What evidence you haven't shown any real evidence in this thread...
Your evidence is Because you say so, so it isn't true

where the fuck is the evidence in that....

just to answer where we get the speed in the calc....

The speed we use aren't baseless

There's 2 or maybe more type to get a speed in certain feats.

But this 2 are the most used

Measuring distance which an object traveled

This one involves pixel scaling and a lot of math...

then there's the using the recorded speed in the real world which could be applied in the said fiction.

Bullet travel speed
Cloud to Ground lightning
Earth Re-entry speed
Etc etc...

Which by the way is used currently in physics....

the value we use is not randomly acquired, like Hey I think this is mach 10000 so I will use mach 10000.... lol no............there is always a basis for this speed...

Either do a research for it which can be easily acquired by just googling shit or by putting effort and using a ruler or a fucking pixel scale program to check the size of the drawn image of the manga...


----------



## Sablés (Mar 30, 2015)

He's not trolling

just stupid and unwilling to learn

typical noob behavior honestly.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2015)

Liquid said:


> He's not trolling
> 
> just stupid and unwilling to learn
> 
> typical noob behavior honestly.



I'd be willing to bet he's trolling.....

Someone with that post count coming in and immediately posting without any semblance of the nuance here? Immediately calling other people stupid when it's clear as day his argument is trash and uneducated?

He's been given several scans and arguments to consider which he constantly replies with the same wall of paragraphs talking about nonsense and numbers....

Like where is your COO.


----------



## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Lord all mighty u gtg back to work my boss calling me. So I'll be back to own again. And u r the ones who claims Mach 1958 so u prove . Not the other way around. No common sense man


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 30, 2015)

The shit is we already proved how the calc works

Now it is your job to disprove this shit... 

Because you don't like it...

So unless you can coherently disprove this shit

then do a better job debating and don't make excuses. or Try to move the goal post.....


----------



## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Lord all mighty u gtg back to work my boss calling me. So I'll be back to own again. And u r the ones who claims Mach 1958 so u prove . Not the other way around. No common sense man



already did.
that's what the calc is for.
We did our part and supplied evidence.
so the "burden of proof" is now on you to say why the calc is incorrect since we already supplied what we needed to.

Where's yours again?
oh right, you just yell shit about blitztrope after being told many times it's not accepted here and then say "checkmate" like a 5 year old.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 30, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> I'd be willing to bet he's trolling.....
> 
> *Someone with that post count coming in and immediately posting without any semblance of the nuance here? Immediately calling other people stupid when it's clear as day his argument is trash and uneducated?
> *
> ...




Someone with a small post count is susceptible to making inexperienced posts given they generally are..._*New*_

Has no concept of how things work around here 

Parades like he's fighting against some corrupt system and is unwilling to learn

Uh yeah, all evidence of typical noob behavior. 

And the bolded actually made me chuckle a bit...considering you obviously aren't aware of the irony.


----------



## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

I like how he thinks the OBD is biased naruto wankers when it might be a competitor for "most hated series" here.
Even experienced members like making the occasional nardoverse rape thread for fun.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Someone with a small post count is susceptible to making inexperienced posts given they generally are..._*New*_
> 
> Has no concept of how things work around here
> 
> ...



His post aren't just inexperienced...There are clearly antagonistic, his arguments don't follow and are completely irrelevant to what's being discussed...and he continuously refuses to look at evidence....

You mean when you tried arguing Byakuya could beat Law, let alone Law + Dofla a real tough fight  or when you tried arguing internal organs have the same durability as the outside of the body, relative to Law's powers   (which just hilariously just got proven wrong)

say what you want about my posting, I atleast admit when I am wrong, and try to learn. (unlike your bleach wanking)


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## Regicide (Mar 30, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> or when you tried arguing internal organs have the same durability as the outside of the body


..They kind of do.

Durability isn't just skin deep, the energy released when superhuman characters exchange attacks has to go somewhere, whether they're taking or giving the damage.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2015)

Regicide said:


> ..They kind of do.
> 
> Durability isn't just skin deep, the energy released when superhuman characters exchange attacks has to go somewhere, whether they're taking or giving the damage.



My argument isn't that superhuman organs aren't superhuman or that superhuman organs are human level, my point is they are extremely vulnerable (hence why they are on the inside) and if isolated from the body (which soaks up the damage from Shockwaves, force, etc) would be completely vulnerable to a similarly tiered character. 

Byakuya's heart durability is no where near the totality of his overall durability. That's just stupid.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 30, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> His post aren't just unexperienced...There are clearly antagonistic, his arguments don't follow and are completely irrelevant to what's being discussed...and he continously refuses to look at evidence....



He's antagonistic because he genuinely believes his views are correct and thinks the big bad OBD is swarming him with false evidence. All you've said is that his arguments are bad...like ignorance doesn't correlate with inexperience.

This isn't difficult, like seriously. If you want to see a real troll, look at Vicotex.



> *or when you tried arguing internal organs have the same durability as the outside of the body*






> Someone with that post count coming in and i*mmediately posting without any semblance of the nuance here*? *Immediately calling other people stupid when it's clear as day his argument is trash and uneducated?*



Like I said, fucking ironic.


----------



## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

yeah, he's just antagonistic. A better example of a troll would be Wan with trying to pull BS in order for Avatar to win in the BD.


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## Regicide (Mar 30, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> My argument isn't that superhuman organs aren't superhuman or that superhuman organs are human level, my point is they are extremely vulnerable (hence why they are on the inside) and if isolated from the body (which soaks up the damage from Shockwaves, force, etc) would be completely vulnerable to a similarly tiered character.
> 
> Byakuya's heart durability is no where near the totality of his overall durability. That's just stupid.


It's not really stupid, no.

Would it be fair to call them proportionately weaker? Sure. There's no real reason to believe it's anywhere near as large a difference as you're suggesting though. Shit's still going to be in the same general range.

Like I said, the energy's gonna go somewhere. The organs and whatnot are going to be subject to similar levels of energy, if not as much.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2015)

Liquid said:


> He's antagonistic because he genuinely believes his views are correct and thinks the big bad OBD is swarming him with false evidence. All you've said is that his arguments are bad...like ignorance doesn't correlate with inexperience.
> 
> This isn't difficult, like seriously. If you want to see a real troll, look at Vicotex.




If he was genuinly interested in arguing he would have checked out the calcs and actually tried to debunk said evidence. He literally has not given consideration to any argument presented, or even replied with relative replies, except "that calc sounds like too much" or you guys don't know anything" or the ever so consistent appeal to bleach characters moving hypersonic in response to being told Akainu is quad digit mach.

But whatever Sables, lol.








> Like I said, fucking ironic.


All that showed me is you cannot read, since I said in relation to Law's powers buddy, but try again


----------



## Regicide (Mar 30, 2015)

Like, if you're hitting an entire order of magnitude below your opponent's durability, your attacks are still going to have the same lack of effect on their internal organs as they would bare flesh.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2015)

Regicide said:


> It's not really stupid, no.
> 
> Would it be fair to call them proportionately weaker? Sure. There's no real reason to believe it's anywhere near as large a difference as you're suggesting though. Shit's still going to be in the same general range.
> 
> Like I said, the energy's gonna go somewhere. The organs and whatnot are going to be subject to similar levels of energy, if not as much.


Why would author's ever use the internal bleeding trope if the internals weren't obviously vulnerable?

If isolated from the body, and left completely to it's own defenses (or in the case of something like countershock/gamma knife where traditional durability is bypassed) 
how would it retain similar durability? The things that usually takes most of the damage( the bones, muscle, etc) are completely stripped leaving the organ (and it's very small cell layer) by itself? You think if Law separated Bya's heart, it could take the same attack As Nodt gave to him when he almost died? I don't.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Why would author's ever use the internal bleeding trope if the internals weren't obviously vulnerable?
> 
> If isolated from the body, and left completely to it's own defenses (or in the case of something like countershock/gamma knife where traditional durability is bypassed)
> how would it retain similar durability? The things that usually takes most of the damage( the bones, muscle, etc) are completely stripped leaving the organ (and it's very small cell layer) by itself? You think if Law separated Bya's heart, it could take the same attack As Nodt gave to him when he almost died? I don't.



to be fair real life bodies have an issue with internal durability. you can stop someone's heart by punching them hard enough IIRC.
tropes are just that, tropes.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Like, if you're hitting an entire order of magnitude below your opponent's durability, your attacks are still going to have the same lack of effect on their internal organs as they would bare flesh.



"my point is they are extremely vulnerable (hence why they are on the inside) and if isolated from the body (which soaks up the damage from Shockwaves, force, etc) would be *completely vulnerable to a similarly tiered character.*"

Just in case you missed that part (not trying to be a dick)



AgentAAA said:


> to be fair real life bodies have an issue with internal durability. you can stop someone's heart by punching them hard enough IIRC.
> tropes are just that, tropes.


But it doesn't really make sense. The whole point of showing characters throw up or spit up blood from lower level attacks is to indicate they have been injured internally. 

Like when Dofla got hit by Red Hawk. Made him heave up some blood, but by no means got anywhere near hurting him. The blood isn't just some trope, it's the author saying "this dude's insides just got fucked up".


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 30, 2015)

Dr. White said:
			
		

> Why would author's ever use the internal bleeding trope



Er you already answered it... It's a fucking trope.



> But it doesn't really make sense. The whole point of showing characters throw up or spit up blood from lower level attacks is to indicate they have been injured internally.



And a blitz trope is to make another character look faster...

Which is the same shit as this argument...

are we done now?


----------



## Sablés (Mar 30, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> If he was genuinly interested in arguing he would have checked out the calcs and actually tried to debunk said evidence. He literally has not given consideration to any argument presented, or even replied with relative replies, except "that calc sounds like too much" or you guys don't know anything" or the ever so consistent appeal to bleach characters moving hypersonic in response to being told Akainu is quad digit mach.
> 
> But whatever Sables, lol.



Cannot believe I'm having to explain this.

This guy is a new poster. New posters  generally make terrible and awful posts because frankly, they don't know wtf they're talking about. I am no exception and I know for a fact that some of the regulars in this very thread were no better. Your accusations are all traits present in noobs based on simple observation so why are jumping the gun when you can't even make that distinction?




> All that showed me is you cannot read, since I said in relation to Law's powers buddy, but try again



What are you? 12?

I told you the durability of his interior and exterior are comparable and if Law had the DC to break the exterior, there is no need for him to go as far as to damage the interior. It superfluous.

Therefore, to address your nonsensical strawman? "In relation to Law"? Law's inclusion into that example is a _factor by default _; I shouldn't even have to mention it .  With every post, you're proving to be just as bad as the one you're calling a troll.

Don't have time for this shit.


----------



## Regicide (Mar 30, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> "my point is they are extremely vulnerable (hence why they are on the inside) and if isolated from the body (which soaks up the damage from Shockwaves, force, etc) would be *completely vulnerable to a similarly tiered character.*"


Because that's fucking pointless to bring up and I don't know why it matters.

If two characters are have similar levels of destructive power and durability, they'd be capable of beating each other to death regardless.

Even so, it's not like the internal organs are an order(s) of magnitude less durable. It's not significant enough to actually matter in a versus fight, considering the huge margin of errors we work with in this hobby anyways.

We're talking shit like a Mach 250 and a Mach 400 character being considered to have negligible differences in speed for the purpose of matches.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 30, 2015)

Okay stop trying to antagonize each other over silly shit


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2015)

Liquid said:


> This guy is a new poster. New posters  generally make terrible and awful posts because frankly, they don't know wtf they're talking about. I am no exception and I know for a fact that some of the regulars in this very thread were no better. Your accusations are all traits present in noobs based on simple observation so why are jumping the gun when you can't even make that distinction?


I'm making this distinction based off several factors that distinguish him from regular posters that I have stated multiple times which you seem to keep glossing over.







> I told you the durability of his interior and exterior are comparable and if Law had the DC to break the exterior, there is no need for him to go as far as to damage the interior. It superfluous.
> 
> Therefore, to address your nonsensical strawman? "In relation to Law"? Law's inclusion into that example is a _factor by default _; I shouldn't even have to mention it .  With every post, you're proving to be just as bad as the one you're calling a troll.


My whole point for saying in relation to Law is because his higher end DC feats don't cause actual damage, and he happens to have a plethora of moves that cause internal damage or allow him to access internals. 

So yes someone who is City block level plus can take an attack of that magnitude and still have functional organs, and be relatively okay. But if you isolate said organs (what Law can do and what we were discussing) He could just go to town with his attacks specifically designed to, ya know fuck up internals.



> Don't have time for this shit.


Then stop replying.


----------



## Solar (Mar 30, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Okay stop trying to antagonize each other over silly shit



Just another day in an HST thread. You should consider banning these instead of multiversal matches.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 30, 2015)

Yes Bern, I'll get right on delivering the final death blow to the section. Perfect logic.


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## Solar (Mar 30, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Yes Bern, I'll get right on delivering the final death blow to the section. Perfect logic.



Don't delay. Do it today.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

The problem here is that if a character is supposed to move at said speed than it should be apparent and consistant. A character that he been claimed to move at Mach 1958 is a extrinsic claim even in a fictional verse if said character has no consistency of doing so. Idc what Calc u make. Obviously if said character was so fast he would not be tagged. Do u know how fast Mach 1958 is? Apparently not because ur waking his chinchin like no tommor. U seem to think I need to prove u wrong, when u haven't actually provin to be right. I can't prove something wrong that isn't even right to begin with ... how about this ... this so called Mach 1958 is a anime feat right? Give me a link to youtube or a manga link so I can observe. I think I was given one before but I can't remember. No one in the hst has quad digit reaction . so that's why I'm hesitant to believe akainu of all people do ... post some scans please or get owned


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## Aphelion (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> The problem here is that if a character is supposed to move at said speed than it should be apparent and consistant. A character that he been claimed to move at Mach 1958 is a extrinsic claim even in a fictional verse if said character has no consistency of doing so. Idc what Calc u make. Obviously if said character was so fast he would not be tagged. Do u know how fast Mach 1958 is? Apparently not because ur waking his chinchin like no tommor. U seem to think I need to prove u wrong, when u haven't actually provin to be right. I can't prove something wrong that isn't even right to begin with ... how about this ... this so called Mach 1958 is a anime feat right? Give me a link to youtube or a manga link so I can observe. I think I was given one before but I can't remember. No one in the hst has quad digit reaction . so that's why I'm hesitant to believe akainu of all people do ... post some scans please or get owned


Let's just pretend this post doesn't exist.

This thread is already like ten pages longer than it needs to be


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## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2015)

I've been waiting for Fujita to post for hours


----------



## Fujita (Mar 30, 2015)

Aphelion said:


> Let's just pretend this post doesn't exist.
> 
> This thread is already like ten pages longer than it needs to be



This thread was sorta productive back when we were talking about power and radiation and whatever 

so the first 6 pages or so  

oh well, maybe I'll (or somebody) can make a meta thread about power one of these days 



Frederica Bernkastel said:


> You should consider banning these instead of multiversal matches.



No


----------



## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

All I'm saying is that just because u make a Calc and have a consensus about it, it doesn't make it right. Back then it was a agreed that slavery was legal,  yet that doesn't make it true or moral. having many people agree doesn't mean something is right. Like with the earth being flat. U can not say with a certainty how fast akainu reactions are. Point blank u can only make educated guessed. however u fail to realize that I wasn't making a absolute claim to yana. I was giving a general idea. As to where y wanted to be specidic. Which means u have more to prove. I agree this thread is getting old


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## Aphelion (Mar 30, 2015)

Fujita said:


> This thread was sorta productive back when we were talking about power and radiation and whatever
> 
> so the first 6 pages or so



seven pages then

whenever this kuroi fucker started posting 



> oh well, maybe I'll (or somebody) can make a meta thread about power one of these days


Sounds like a good idea.  It'd be nice to finally settle the issue of Yama's Bankai once and for all.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2015)

Aphelion said:


> seven pages then
> 
> whenever this kuroi fucker started posting



He's obviously trying to have a civil debate here  

Stop ganging up on the new guys.

I mean like he said if Slavery was agreed t be morally right, then surely the calcs are not right just cause we agree on them...


----------



## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> The problem here is that if a character is supposed to move at said speed than it should be apparent and consistant. A character that he been claimed to move at Mach 1958 is a extrinsic claim even in a fictional verse if said character has no consistency of doing so.


Speeds at MHS range are constantly noted for combat speed in OP so consistency is not an issue.


> Idc what Calc u make.


So you flat-out admit you're discarding evidence because you don't like it.

 Obviously if said character was so fast he would not be tagged.[/quote]
No, because he's only one of many characters who can move that fast, meaning other people just as fast exist, and given he's a top-tier that's only been touched by people at the very top of the verse, being tagged isn't really an issue.
Whenever Akainu appears he pretty much bltizes and melts the opposition.



> Do u know how fast Mach 1958 is? Apparently not because ur waking his chinchin like no tommor.


Yeah, it's 666 287.82 m / s.
or about where saiyan saga DBZ characters sit in speed.
not certain why this matters since as it's been pointed out the speed is very fast since dodging actual lightning happens for several arcs before this, which itself is faster than we put OP characters.
They aren't considered in the far more ridiculous mach numbers for lightning due to the fact no one's flat-out dodged at the same speed, but they get a reasonable percentage of said speed.
so their attacks actually do move fast enough to tag people at mach 1958.
hell, the calc itself involves dodging an attack fast enough to tag people at those speeds if they don't dodge under a certain span of time.



> U seem to think I need to prove u wrong, when u haven't actually provin to be right. I can't prove something wrong that isn't even right to begin with ... how about this ... this so called Mach 1958 is a anime feat right?


No, it's a manga feat.
we don't use anime feats as canon because the anime's an adaptation.
Anime OP is slightly faster in the mid-tiers IIRC.
Thank you for proving you have never clicked the blog link that explicitly has manga scans in it as evidence that's been linked to you, or even searched for it. it's wonderful when people do the research for you and you flat-out do your best to ignore all such efforts.
The calc proves us right and by our standards of evidence it's more than admissable as a calculation.
the calc proves it right. Prove the calc wrong.



> Give me a link to youtube or a manga link so I can observe. I think I was given one before but I can't remember. No one in the hst has quad digit reaction . so that's why I'm hesitant to believe akainu of all people do ... post some scans please or get owned





it's been linked twice already. both times you've presumed you were so above the people in this thread that you don't need to click the link. It's really good to see that there isn't bias in your posts that you've now outright admitted you flat-out ignore evidence given to you.

and actually:
Yhwach has some form of quad digit speed from travelling the distance that could be shunpoed in seven days in a few seconds, though to what extent is debated. He's minimum in the thousands of machs for the feats he's currently exhibited.
even if one assumes "normal shunpo for 7 days" means "The same speed as usain bolt" which is low-ending the shit out of it, It's thousands of miles in one go.


then of course there's the "thousand ri" feat in the fourth arc, which is sort of considered hyperbole here but does fit in as the info for the arc currently goes.
There's also a triple-digit mach speed feat from kenpachi jumping up and cutting the meteor, and there's also that mach 29 calc I showed you earlier you felt no need to cry about for some reason.

nardo and sasuke are several thousand mach in travel speed due to crossing a good portion of their planet in a short amount of time at EoS.

One piece is generally the weakest HST verse in DC and at most second-strongest in speed just somewhat above bleach(and still incapable of beating it due to it's top-tiers being strong enough to shrug off attacks and then return them tenfold) , so not sure why you're crying about this in the first place.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 30, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> I'm making this distinction based off several factors that distinguish him from regular posters that I have stated multiple times which you seem to keep glossing over.



Said factors that I've stated are present in just about every inexperienced poster. New posters generally make terrible posts and terrible arguments, Trolls do the same. How do you distinguish the two?  

*Hint*: _Don't repeat the same points that exist in both instances like you have been this whole time_

Pretty damn sure I also went out of my way to separate the quality (using this term loosely) of posts of the "regulars" here from how they used to be when they started posting. Or do you think they all started out this way?







> My whole point for saying in relation to Law is because his higher end DC feats don't cause actual damage, and he happens to have a plethora of moves that cause internal damage or allow him to access internals.
> 
> So yes someone who is City block level plus can take an attack of that magnitude and still have functional organs, and be relatively okay. But if you isolate said organs (what Law can do and what we were discussing) He could just go to town with his attacks specifically designed to, ya know fuck up internals.



My point is that Law doesn't need to do any of this. If his power can cut the outside, he doesn't need to cut the inside. If he cannot cut the outside with his pure DC, he can't cut the internal organs that are comparable in durability to whoever he's cutting.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Said factors that I've stated are present in just about every inexperienced poster. New posters generally make terrible posts and terrible arguments, Trolls do the same. How do you distinguish the two?
> 
> B]Hint[/B]: _Don't repeat the same points that exist in both instances like you have been this whole time_


I already tried to break this down to you. Usually if a member is new to this section they may have their share of terrible arguments/posts, but they don't trudge head first into a thread out of no where,  being overly antagontistic, and showing no signs of actually wanting to debate.

I already showed you several arguments he's been regurgitating in response to actual arguments, which combined with the odd irrelevant argument and "come back to get ownd!" post should be enough to display someone's true intentions.

does it really seem like he's genuinely curious as to the outcome of the thread? Does it seem like he shows any signs of arguing objectively? 

I mean we can agree to disagree, I wasn't even trying to engage in this full fledged TL'DR discussion. If you don't think he's been trolling than Okay, we'll just agree to disagree.


> Pretty damn sure I also went out of my way to separate the quality (using this term loosely) of posts of the "regulars" here from how they used to be when they started posting. Or do you think they all started out this way?


I meant to say new posters not regulars so that was my fault.









> My point is that Law doesn't need to do any of this. If his power can cut the outside, he doesn't need to cut the inside. If he cannot cut the outside with his pure DC, he can't cut the internal organs that are comparable in durability to whoever he's cutting.


Yeah because youre argument was that Law had no way to put Bya down, and Bya could just reassemble himself or fight while cut up. So it was very relevant.


----------



## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> All I'm saying is that just because u make a Calc and have a consensus about it, it doesn't make it right.


That's true. It's also irrelevant as long as the calc is in good scientific standing.


> Back then it was a agreed that slavery was legal,  yet that doesn't make it true or moral. having many people agree doesn't mean something is right. Like with the earth being flat.


Well, no, the agreement that slavery was legal made it true.

It was true that slavery was allowed.

Slavery was a thing.

I'm just going to sit here and think about how you think "a complex moral issue" has anything to do with "a scientific evaluation".

you're right, having many people agree doesn't mean something is right.
On the other hand, a scientific calculation gives us a good amount of reasoning that something is right.

ignoring the fact that the idea of "the world is flat" was known to be wrong for thousands of years since plato proved such back in greece. No one really believed that at the time due to the horizon being a pretty good clue.
Though I'm certain there were more people like you saying it's unrealistic and refuting it based on that.



> U can not say with a certainty how fast akainu reactions are.



Yes, but we can say "within a reasonable doubt". Which is what's done here.
and in most experimentation 
Most calcs are treated as ballpark estimates rather than written law, but overall that's the area they sit.



> Point blank u can only make educated guessed.


Yeah!
This differs from real science how?



> however u fail to realize that I wasn't making a absolute claim to yana. I was giving a general idea. As to where y wanted to be specidic. Which means u have more to prove. I agree this thread is getting old



no we don't.
Accuracy doesn't change the general validity of our claims.
matter of fact the fact that we put more effort into finding a more specific answer makes our claim stand up much better than your vague "is fast" claim.

that's like claiming that if someone says a car is 160 MPH based on testing with a speedometer, he has more to prove than the guy just saying it's faster than the other car because he saw 2 of them driving near eachother once.

yeah, I'm sure the guy saying 160 MPH is the one not to be trusted.


Saying "that's not enough evidence" without explaining why doesn't make it not enough evidence.

Saying "yamamoto is hypersonic+" repeatedly means nothing in this thread because the OBD has agreed Yamamoto is hypersonic+ For a long time and thus you are breaking no new ground.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Back then it was a agreed that slavery was legal,  yet that doesn't make it true or moral.



Holy shit, really? 

Don't you think that's a bit of a stretch for an analogy?


----------



## MAPSK (Mar 30, 2015)

>comparing calcs to slavery

[YOUTUBE]-p0OadRapq4[/YOUTUBE]

Seriously, that's kinda fucked.


----------



## Regicide (Mar 30, 2015)

That's the dumbest analogy I've heard all day.


----------



## Byrd (Mar 30, 2015)

This thread is magical


----------



## MAPSK (Mar 30, 2015)

What is that glorious set from, Byrd?


----------



## Byrd (Mar 30, 2015)

my hero academia


----------



## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Are u all referring to the episode when thre was a meteor summoned and they each repelled it with th eI'm own attacks... and are u using the speed of that meteor for your calcs? ...if so I can understand. However THAT Meteor Was Not Moving THAT fast. If so it would have reached the ground almost instantaneously.  In real life if a high speed meteor was coming toward earth, u wouldn't actually be able to see it coming down. It would hit the atmosphere andhit the ground only seconds later. So still thay meteor obviously wasn't that fast. Am I talking about the right Calc or no?


----------



## Byrd (Mar 30, 2015)

There is so much wrong in that post.

basically your argument is that the meteor wasnt moving that fast because I said so


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 30, 2015)

My man didn't even read the calc


----------



## Byrd (Mar 30, 2015)

its like because he dont like the results... he doesn't agree with it... despite all the evidence thats all there


----------



## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Are u all referring to the episode when thre was a meteor summoned and they each repelled it with th eI'm own attacks... and are u using the speed of that meteor for your calcs? ...if so I can understand. However THAT Meteor Was Not Moving THAT fast. If so it would have reached the ground almost instantaneously.  In real life if a high speed meteor was coming toward earth, u wouldn't actually be able to see it coming down. It would hit the atmosphere andhit the ground only seconds later. So still thay meteor obviously wasn't that fast. Am I talking about the right Calc or no?



no, it wouldn't.
it would specifically hit in a minute.
actually, it could hit much faster, but a minute is us taking the lowest possible end. lots of other things point to it being a few seconds, but we're basically assuming the maximum amount of time for it to hit without being too strict.

A high speed meteor would actually take some time to hit generally, actually, though it depends on the meteor and mass in question. many meteors take a lot of time to hit and even a mach 1958 meteor would take a few seconds to hit our earth.
665 kilometers per second isn't enough to quite go from the exosphere to the ground in one second.

The main difference is that OP earth is blatantly not our earth, having different continents, a larger overall diameter, and more importantly for this calc a higher atmosphere.

ignoring that:
read the calc again.
The distance it travelled in that one minute is actually the reason we have the mach number. If we assume it took less time than a minute, since our assumption of a minute is basically just to low end that shit, it'd be a higher amount of time.

So to put it simply mach 1958 is what we gained from it validly travelling that distance and then scientifically evaluating the distance travelled.


----------



## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Uh no ... in reality people ok REAL IT a meteor would hit the atmosphere then hit the ground seconds later. GOOGLE IT!!!!! U see the fact that the meteor didn't hit them within mili seconds is testimony to its slowness. They obviously had time to react see and look at the dam thing. A real one would hit the outer stratus here and the ground in less than a seond. Dont believe me GOOOGLE IT!!  ... SEE HOW fast an actual meteor moves.it's too fast to even perceive,  again it would hit the outer atmosphere and then cross the distance with en miliseconds. I'm not kidding google it please


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 30, 2015)

Google it  I haven't seen that pulled in ages.


----------



## Iwandesu (Mar 30, 2015)

or one piece atmosphere is way bigger than ours due to the fact their planet absolutely dwarfs our...


----------



## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Uh no ... in reality people ok REAL IT a meteor would hit the atmosphere then hit the ground seconds later. GOOGLE IT!!!!! U see the fact that the meteor didn't hit them within mili seconds is testimony to its slowness. They obviously had time to react see and look at the dam thing. A real one would hit the outer stratus here and the ground in less than a seond. Dont believe me GOOOGLE IT!!  ... SEE HOW fast an actual meteor moves.it's too fast to even perceive,  again it would hit the outer atmosphere and then cross the distance with en miliseconds. I'm not kidding google it please



wow, you really didn't read the calc.
We are not comparing it to an "actual meteor"

though seriously, if you're going to bring up google, post something from google for your findings.
Also don't ignore the fact it's already been stated to you OP earth has a much higher stratosphere than IRL earth. they're different planets so it's a false comparison.

lastly...
What do you think we're basing the meteor being at mach 1958 on?
because specifically, we're basing the meteor being at mach 1958 based on the distance it travelled.
It literally is scaled to how far it moved.
Meaning that we're literally using a distance/time formula that found it was mach 1958 based on us observing the distance travelled and plugging the lowest end we could on how long it took to hit.
In other words, something has to move mach 1958 to move that far in a minute in one piece earth.
not a couple seconds.


----------



## Fujita (Mar 30, 2015)

Tacocat said:


> My man didn't even read the calc



There's been a lot of that going around lately, hasn't there


----------



## MAPSK (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Uh no ... in reality people ok REAL IT a meteor would hit the atmosphere then hit the ground seconds later. GOOGLE IT!!!!! U see the fact that the meteor didn't hit them within mili seconds is testimony to its slowness. They obviously had time to react see and look at the dam thing. A real one would hit the outer stratus here and the ground in less than a seond. Dont believe me GOOOGLE IT!!  ... SEE HOW fast an actual meteor moves.it's too fast to even perceive,  again it would hit the outer atmosphere and then cross the distance with en miliseconds. I'm not kidding google it please



>implying that just because we see things happening more slowly on-screen than they naturally would IRL means that they're not actually moving at that speed and the action isn't just being slowed down for our convenience


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Google it  I haven't seen that pulled in ages.



More silly icons ...but still won't google it knowing he will get destroyed... buddy a meteor will cross hundreds possibly thousands of kilometers per second .... and that's just an average one.... nice try using a slow obviously see ablemeteor for a BZ Calc gg


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 30, 2015)

Seriously though, don't say google it. Link a science article or something.


----------



## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> More silly icons ...but still won't google it knowing he will get destroyed... buddy a meteor will cross hundreds possibly thousands of kilometers per second .... and that's just an average one.... nice try using a slow obviously see ablemeteor for a BZ Calc gg



yeah
so did this one.
That's what the calc is showing.
I like how you just ignore half the conversation so you can sound like some semblance of right.
you really shouldn't say "gg" when every other person in the discussion is firmly on the side of "you're a delusional idiot"


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 30, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> or one piece atmosphere is way bigger than ours due to the fact their planet absolutely dwarfs our...



actually this is not a brilliant assumption

was there better reasoning than this?

I can't remember.


----------



## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> actually this is not a brilliant assumption
> 
> was there better reasoning than this?
> 
> I can't remember.



there was a few scans posted even in the blog showing an abnormal atmosphere IIRC


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> >implying that just because we see things happening more slowly on-screen than they naturally would IRL means that they're not actually moving at that speed and the action isn't just being slowed down for our convenience



Even complete fodder had enough time to see and run away in some bushes... are u serious right now???? Lord allmighty. Fodder seen the thing ...stop playing man. This was a REAL meteor it would create a Shockwave when hitting the atmosphere then cold with en seconds as the distance between the utter most outer atmosphere and the ground on earth is NOTHING compared to the velocity of any actual meteor. U see what I mean. btw fodder Kaito ku seen the thing coming and had enough time to run... wow man still gg ... u all lose


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## Regicide (Mar 30, 2015)

It doesn't really matter how quickly meteors are moving in our world, because that's not relevant to the feat in question.

One Piece's planet is larger than our's, with an atmosphere that stretches out further to match. That's why real life meteor speed isn't being used in the first place, because it would take a silly amount of time to cross such a large distance there.


Nightbringer said:


> actually this is not a brilliant assumption
> 
> was there better reasoning than this?
> 
> I can't remember.


Someone angsized our view of Alabasta from above to get a distance, if I recall.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 30, 2015)

Next up, prove OP Earth is bigger than ours. Snap to it!


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 30, 2015)

Fujita said:


> There's been a lot of that going around lately, hasn't there


At least this guy's opinions are already laws of physics; it doesn't matter so much.

VH has no such excuse 



Nightbringer said:


> actually this is not a brilliant assumption
> 
> was there better reasoning than this?
> 
> I can't remember.



I scaled it, actually.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Meteors are capable of 72 kilometers per second. Slamming into earth which means yes u literally have seconds before boom ... so gg people. ..


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

there. actually one of tacocat's blogs.


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## Regicide (Mar 30, 2015)

I feel like a lot of people don't actually read calcs to begin with and just go "Ooh, big numbers," at the results.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Meteors are capable of 72 kilometers per second. Slamming into earth which means yes u literally have seconds before boom ... so gg people. ..



what part of "one piece earth is not regular earth" do you not get?

Ignoring that... literally seconds is actually overselling it. you have close to half a minute with 72 KM per second.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 30, 2015)

Regicide said:


> I feel like a lot of people don't actually read calcs to begin with and just go "Ooh, big numbers," at the results.



Let's be real, only people that care are going to read them. I'll leave you to ponder how many people that actually is and why this is problematic.


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## MAPSK (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Meteors are capable of 72 kilometers per second. Slamming into earth which means yes u literally have seconds before boom ... so gg people. ..



The exosphere begins 10000km above Earth's surface, meaning you would have 138.8888 seconds or two full minutes to react before it hit you. GG


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## Solar (Mar 30, 2015)

Regicide said:


> I feel like a lot of people don't actually read calcs to begin with and just go "Ooh, big numbers," at the results.



Well, yeah. It's your job to look at things for the rest of us.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Says meteors going at 48, 000 kilometers per second ... earth to outer space is only 1,000 kilometers ... hmmmm...... gg


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## Fujita (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Says meteors going at 48, 000 kilometers per second ... earth to outer space is only 1,000 kilometers ... hmmmm...... gg





> 48,280 kph





> h



gg **


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## Tacocat (Mar 30, 2015)

Relativistic meteors tho.


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## Regicide (Mar 30, 2015)

Forty-eight thousand km/s would be relativistic speeds.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Are we dun yet? Or we need to go another 15 pages. For the millionth time. This "meteor" which was obvions ly small was not moving that fast. Even if it were it was far enough to plan a reaction time against it. I agree that the meteor was fadt. But the distance is what makes me doubt. They had ample time to react. Which isn't really that hard for characterstwhile with, super sonic to hypersonic reaction time to swing a sword. Upwards at a linearly moving rock. Not really hard for super humans. Doesn't mean he's "mach 1958" could of just song before the meteor got close... capable for someone with superhuman reaction time... so yea readjust ur bogus calcs


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## Dr. White (Mar 31, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Let's be real, only people that care are going to read them. I'll leave you to ponder how many people that actually is and why this is problematic.



I try to follow them conceptually but I stuggle with basic Trig, so I'm math fodder


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## Regicide (Mar 31, 2015)

I'm pretty sure most of our calcs don't even get that far into math.


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## Byrd (Mar 31, 2015)

Basically they use Netwons Laws most of the time... thats about it


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## Piecesis (Mar 31, 2015)

Is this real life? Has the cancerdome been reborn?


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 31, 2015)

Byrd said:


> Basically they use Netwons Laws most of the time... thats about it



I don't know what calcs you are viewing bro but I see tedious amounts of math in calcs. 

 I also don't understand certain things like conceptualizing certain calc results. Like for example, if pre skip Sanji is MCB+ with his best DJ, and he strikes the ground in the middle of a city his hardest, how much destruction would he cause?

But I get the whole measuring with TNT equivalent


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 31, 2015)

mcb and so on is just an extra level for help with categorisation

it represents twice the energy of city block level

which we elect to say is 10 tons of tnt (who knows why)

theoretically it should be, if sanji kicks the middle of a city with a mcb it should destroy a few or many blocks

not always accurate however

also I just thought of something, did we ever actually get the raw for that scan translated?

the 50km river one I mean?


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## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2015)

It doesn't need translation; it says 50km in the raw scan. You already asked this in the blog and I provided the raw. On my phone right now so I couldn't be assed to can't link it, but it's there.


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## Dr. White (Mar 31, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> mcb and so on is just an extra level for help with categorisation
> 
> it represents twice the energy of city block level
> 
> ...


Okay, so his blunt force attack would just pulverize the surrounding area?

I looked up TNT/Dynamite videos and I see a ton of displacement don't know how that correlates to outright destruction like bombs.

More of a life sciences person


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 31, 2015)

Tacocat said:


> It doesn't need translation; it says 50km in the raw scan. You already asked this in the blog and I provided the raw. On my phone right now so I couldn't be assed to can't link it, but it's there.



I did?


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## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2015)

Yessum 



There you are.


----------



## Fujita (Mar 31, 2015)

Regicide said:


> I'm pretty sure most of our calcs don't even get that far into math.



Depends on the calc, tbh. Even scaling can get conceptually tricky if you don't know what's happening with things like angsizing (which I... still don't). And a lot of calcs do rely, one way or another, on things that use more in-depth math or physics, like say the radiation calc mentioned in this very thread  Not sure how many people here understand the Stefan-Boltzmann law, but we go ahead and use it in the calcs anyway because there's a calculator that does the work for us. And then there was the Pitot tube formula that we used for shockwaves which I'm pretty sure was... completely wrong.  



Byrd said:


> Basically they use Netwons Laws most of the time... thats about it



Newton's Laws can involve some fairly awful math, to be honest. Depends on what you're doing with them.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 31, 2015)

Tacocat said:


> Yessum
> 
> 
> 
> There you are.



vivi says about 50km

calc invalid


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## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> vivi says about 50km
> 
> calc invalid



Welp 

Calc was already invalid, anyway; Physics God said so.


----------



## Imagine (Mar 31, 2015)

This thread is the unofficial  3rd OBD convo 

Cancerdome FoTW thread tier


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## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2015)

Inb4 Modbat shuts us down again 

Or could UD take up that mantle?


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## Imagine (Mar 31, 2015)

UD wouldn't do that. This thread is containing some of the terrible 

Modbat tho


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## Fujita (Mar 31, 2015)

Regicide said:


>



Wikipedia solved the problem  



Tacocat said:


> Welp
> 
> Calc was already invalid, anyway; Physics God said so.



no calc can survive contact with this thread


----------



## Sablés (Mar 31, 2015)

UD would and has let this live because activity and lulz

Modbat's cruelty and mercilessness however, knows no bounds


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 31, 2015)

as far as locking hst threads

willy and the era of 4 pages<Modbat and the era of locked FoTW<UD and the era of fuck it have fun


----------



## Rivers (Mar 31, 2015)

It seemed like we were about to get a conclusion on Yama-ji's stats for a moment there.


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2015)

Conclusions and Bleach are mutually exclusive 



Fujita said:


> no calc can survive contact with this thread



I'd imagine some Bleach calcs could, especially those that involve calc stacking. Those seem to have been approved.


----------



## Fujita (Mar 31, 2015)

Tacocat said:


> calc stacking



laws of physics, you mean


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2015)

Conclusive proof if I've ever seen it


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## Fujita (Mar 31, 2015)

Can't argue with the scientific method, Taco


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 31, 2015)

Well at least the section is active.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 31, 2015)

Piecesis said:


> Is this real life? Has the cancerdome been reborn?



No. Cancerdome was never this funny and no one wants it back.


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Mar 31, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> mcb and so on is just an extra level for help with categorisation
> 
> it represents twice the energy of city block level
> 
> ...



I actually distinctly remember being asked to translate this. 

No idea where you'd find that though.


----------



## Saint Saga (Mar 31, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Are we dun yet? Or we need to go another 15 pages. For the millionth time. This "meteor" which was obvions ly small was not moving that fast. Even if it were it was far enough to plan a reaction time against it. I agree that the meteor was fadt. But the distance is what makes me doubt. They had ample time to react. Which isn't really that hard for characterstwhile with, super sonic to hypersonic reaction time to swing a sword. Upwards at a linearly moving rock.



Bruh, I know man.
I've been saying the EXACT same thing for 6 years now.

Not as eloquently as you just did of course, but to the best of my abilities.

I'm glad to see some new blood standing up to the man and doing what's right.




> Not really hard for super humans. Doesn't mean he's "mach 1958" could of just song before the meteor got close... capable for someone with superhuman reaction time...



Well said my friend, well said.

I have nothing to add to this, adding anything to this would be the equivalent of drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa.



> so yea readjust ur bogus calcs



DOWN WITH BOGUS CALCS , ALL HAIL READJUST.


----------



## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)

I will admit to a few things here. The simple fact that the OP characters were able to react to a meteor is impressive. Ill admit they must have a lower limit of super sonic and upper limit of hypersonic (at least) In reaction time. The thing is that This was a meteor that was quite frankly obvious in its trajectory. And they had enough time to plan counter attacks. They sat there staring. I also admit this meteor isn't as slow as I thought but still after hitting the atmosphere the speed should be reduced. What gets me though Is the distance separating them from the meteor was sufficient for someone with super human reaction time to react. And just to say "oh mach 1958" seems a bit absurd. I will say that if Akainu ha faster reaction time than the meteor trio than hes at low end mhs at best . But still the fact that they already have superhuman reaction time, seen it coming and only had to swing their swords upwards to deflect it, makes the meteor argument seem weak. If this meteor randomly spawned next to them and they had no warning or anything and they outright evaded it than I would completely concede. But no it was visabl and clearly dodgable, and they had eough time to prepare. 

What im saying is that I can easiliy make up ridiculous numbers. Like kenpachi reacting to tousen bankai. In reality if you were to react at that speed itd be enourmous. At the very moment the blade touches ur body u have enouh time to sense it, feel where on ur body the word is contacting, move ur sword to said location to counter attack all without sight or hearing or anyother senses. Now lets see, even on a human stand point ud have to be atleat supersonic, but these are fictional beings with super human speeds so that make kenpachis raction time in complete  darkness super sonic plus and with his senses should easily be mhs. 

U see how I do things. I don't give an EXACT number like u did I give a general Idea and feel. No one can know exactly which is what u guys claim to do. I don't have to prove much because im not claiming to know with absolute certain. Im giving a general figure backed up by some evidence. 

Now at this point I don't really even care anymore about the thread. just throwing it out there how I operate. I honestly don't hate anyone but I do hate when they go off topic trying to humiliate me. Of course I could hardly give a D...


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Mar 31, 2015)

That moment when you realize no one is even arguing with you anymore.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 31, 2015)

I don't. Let the "One man comedy show" continue.


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Mar 31, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> I understand that. I sugguest a lockage



Yeah, bro, congrats on your first OBD victory. Made sweeter by the fact that you went up against the entire battledome.
You are now our overlord.


----------



## SilverMizuji (Mar 31, 2015)

But who wins tho because speed is equal so it's a battle of skill and power?


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 31, 2015)

To lock this thread would be heretical; it contains the word of our newest OBD messiah, after all.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Mar 31, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> vivi says about 50km
> 
> calc invalid


What calc?


KuroiMugetsu said:


> I understand that. I sugguest a lockage


Are you saying the meteor is slow because you watched the anime version?


----------



## KuroiMugetsu (Apr 1, 2015)

Back on the thread holly crap its still not closed. Hmmm Honestly I have to admit a couple of things here. I thought it over and now I see the importance of calcs. And I don't mind the, as long as they are accurate. I can see the dilemma in using shimmering speed or "oh my god hes fast" to indicate speed. In reality it would be hard. THe only reason I was so persistant is because If stark moves miles in a second with a single flash step that puts him hypersonic casually, and yama blitzed a character keeping up with him several times casually. Which gives him a lower limit of hypersonic + at least. However I cannot confirm his upper limit in speed because lol (nothing to calc him from. However I think its safe to say that if halibel was calced at mach 29 ... than yama must be in the mach 50ish (at least IMO)  Anyways, speed is equal here so there is no blitzing.... 

... Now lets get to the other issues. if this thread is even still alive. What is yamas bankai energy like? isn't it capable of destroyin karakura town multiple times over with shikai only? and yama tanked said energy ... hmmm so I still think yama wins but IDK ... red dog (aka inu) could have some trick up his sleeve... btw sorry for the loooong arguments, not trying o make friends, but not trying to make enemies either ... but that bankai is something ...


----------



## Akatora (Apr 2, 2015)

Speed talks... not getting you anywhere in 2007 nor getting you anywhere in 2015.
Yes speed can be a deciding factor, yet the speeds are usually blown out of proportion here. How many pages hawe been wasted on speed talks that degrade the threads to empty posts of "x is faster and so wins".

Bring back the equalize speed or make a better speed comparison where solid manga fact and numbers are the solid part ewen if they're outragious what the author writes should hold more weight than their ability to draw(just note the knowledge and personallity of any character who giwes such statements)


Giwe me back Bleach characers at ~90 km/h any day ower this


----------



## Rivers (Apr 2, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Hmmm Honestly I have to admit a couple of things here. I thought it over and now I see the importance of calcs. And I don't mind the, *as long as they are accurate.*



Except none of them really are. Its just another form of opinion. Another fandom, non-canon hobby/speculation.

No first-year college physics professor would grant those manga panel derived speed / DC calcs a pass. Any validity from those calcs comes from the consensus of a handful of people who read up on the blogs. 

When at one moment Bleach was the fastest, and then in the next month becomes the slowest, and then another few weeks later becoming the fastest again...yeah, obviously you have inherent flaws in the system. 

The manga panels (which the calcs are based from) are bogus in the first place, because they are filled with inconsistencies and artistic license - since they are...pieces of art. Drawn without measurements or rulers to being with, or even without the use of traditional drawing proportions techniques/styles (_cough*Kubo*cough_).  Accurate is a pretty loose term in the context of which calc is accepted or not...


----------



## SilverMizuji (Apr 2, 2015)

Sealed Aizen would low diff both these guys ;D


----------



## SunRise (Apr 2, 2015)

17 pages. Please. I will hardly read all this.


----------



## AgentAAA (Apr 2, 2015)

Rivers said:


> Except none of them really are. Its just another form of opinion. Another fandom, non-canon hobby/speculation.


Oh yeah, unlike eyeballing that shit or purely relying on statements. those are better.
unless you're just stating we should be avoiding evaluating on-panel evidence in general.




> No first-year college physics professor would grant those manga panel derived speed / DC calcs a pass. Any validity from those calcs comes from the consensus of a handful of people who read up on the blogs.


Really?
Do you have any source to back that up?
are you the source?



> When at one moment Bleach was the fastest, and then in the next month becomes the slowest, and then another few weeks later becoming the fastest again...yeah, obviously you have inherent flaws in the system.


Or maybe the calcs involve ongoing series where powers and stats change.




> The manga panels (which the calcs are based from) are bogus in the first place, because they are filled with inconsistencies and artistic license - since they are...pieces of art. Drawn without measurements or rulers to being with, or even without the use of traditional drawing proportions techniques/styles (_cough*Kubo*cough_).  Accurate is a pretty loose term in the context of which calc is accepted or not...


The manga panels aren't well drawn as far as inconsistencies and artistic license.
that doesn't make them less of an evidence to use. It's the primary source material and once it's appeared as a panel it's canon to the manga regardless.
It might not fit author intent, but we treat author as dead in OBD so that doesn't really matter.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 2, 2015)

New rule, eyeball everything.


----------



## MAPSK (Apr 2, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> New rule, eyeball everything.



On it, boss.


----------



## Fujita (Apr 2, 2015)

Rivers said:


> Except none of them really are. Its just another form of opinion. Another fandom, non-canon hobby/speculation.
> 
> No first-year college physics professor would grant those manga panel derived speed / DC calcs a pass. Any validity from those calcs comes from the consensus of a handful of people who read up on the blogs.
> 
> ...



If the main problem with calc inconsistency is source material inconsistency, then anything you say about calcs applies just as much to any other way you care to get useful information from the source material (excluding statements, perhaps, but I'd say that a hefty portion if not an overwhelming majority of feats don't hinge on statements). In that context, it's pretty meaningless to complain about calc inaccuracy, isn't it? Inaccuracy is just a hazard of this hobby that's nearly impossible to avoid. 

And I’m starting to hate the “but scientists wouldn’t do this” argument. Scientists wouldn’t do this because there are ways to get better data than manga gives us, not because trying to use science with our limited data is intrinsically wrong or something. It just means that we need to remember that there are fairly generous error bars on everything we do.


----------



## Hardcore (Apr 2, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> No. *Cancerdome was never this funny *and no one wants it back.



Rottweiler disagrees.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 2, 2015)

Going through his user notes that guy was not funny at all.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Apr 2, 2015)

Fujita said:


>



it's as if he foresaw planetary masturbation but with the wrong series


----------



## Hardcore (Apr 2, 2015)

Fujita said:


>



"there are literally no worries"

Quote of the century


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## Sherlōck (Apr 2, 2015)

Why is Kuroi banned? Who banned him?


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 2, 2015)

It was I, UD.

Dude was clearly a sign up troll and wearing out his welcome


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## Mr. Black Leg (Apr 3, 2015)

Man, even I am tired of HST debates and I'm fucking new here(Compared to most of you guys) . 

So, can someone tell me, since I'm not going to read 18 pages of pure boredom, who wins ?


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## Dr. White (Apr 3, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Man, even I am tired of HST debates and I'm fucking new here(Compared to most of you guys) .
> 
> So, can someone tell me, since I'm not going to read 18 pages of pure boredom, who wins ?



Basically from what I gather.....

Bleach needs new speed feats. Their current top Tiers are not plausibly still hypersonic plus, and we really have no idea where to put them. So Akainu has a very good speed advantage with mach 1900 scaling from Law. To boot akainu seems to have more DC being Island to possibly small country level. Calculating Yama's energy output seems to be tricky and it's being "looked at" in calc limbo, so until those two bleach ambiguities get settled Akainu should take this.

But I'm a newb too so part of this could be wrong.


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## shade0180 (Apr 3, 2015)

^nah that's about it.... Might be a few more week before they resolve bleach. Or we will just move on to new feats.. to evaluate their standing again.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 3, 2015)

OP has enough speed scaling to last them a good while. The high tiers are just under mach 2000.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Apr 3, 2015)

Piecesis said:


> Magikarp.     .



[YOUTUBE]dW5jwbi5O2g[/YOUTUBE]



Dr. White said:


> Basically from what I gather.....
> 
> Bleach needs new speed feats. Their current top Tiers are not plausibly still hypersonic plus, and we really have no idea where to put them. So Akainu has a very good speed advantage with mach 1900 scaling from Law. To boot akainu seems to have more DC being Island to possibly small country level. Calculating Yama's energy output seems to be tricky and it's being "looked at" in calc limbo, so until those two bleach ambiguities get settled Akainu should take this.
> 
> But I'm a newb too so part of this could be wrong.



Thanks, mate .


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