# Pre-Hebi Sasuke vs Kimimaro



## RedChidori (Feb 3, 2014)

The title is always right .



*VS*



Location: Nagato vs Hanzo
State of Mind: IC
Starting Distance: 5.5 meters away
Knowledge: Kimimaro knows of the Sharingan and Sasuke's Curse Mark. Sasuke is aware of Kimimaro's Kekkai Genkai and his Curse Mark.
Restrictions: None
Additional Info: Both start off in base. Kimimaro is fully healthy, he will not be held back by sickness. Both have a full chakra reserve. Sasuke will activate the Sharingan whenever he feels the need to. Both will use their Curse Marks if necessary.

Who's the better pupil of Orochimaru? You decide!

Please provide a legit reason why either combatant wins, loses, or stalemates. 

*READY? FIGHT   !!!!!!!!!! -RedChidori*


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## asstonine (Feb 3, 2014)

You mean the SRA Sasuke or Sasuke just prior to absorbing Orochimaru?


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## ARGUS (Feb 3, 2014)

Kimimaro wins this high diff 

i believe Sasuke surpassed Kimimaro when he gained Orochimarus cells


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 3, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Kimimaro wins this high diff
> 
> i believe Sasuke surpassed Kimimaro when he gained Orochimarus cells



This. Though Kimmi's true potential we cannot know.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

Sasuke sticks Chidori Eisou in Kimimaro and puts so many holes in him just by flowering it.

Then he flicks his wrist and tears Kimi to shit.

Sasuke wins, no difficulty.


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## RedChidori (Feb 3, 2014)

asstonine said:


> You mean the SRA Sasuke or Sasuke just prior to absorbing Orochimaru?



Sasuke prior to the Orochimaru absorption.


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## Tarot (Feb 3, 2014)

definitely Sasuke.  Kimimaro's main fighting style revolves around CQC, which Sasuke can proficiently counter. Sasuke has both sharingan precog and kenjutsu mastery to stay a comfortable distance and his raiton provides a good counter to kimimaro's bone armor. On top of that, Chidori Nagashi and genjutsu would pull Sasuke out of any bind he may get into. I don't see how Sasuke can lose.


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## asstonine (Feb 3, 2014)

RedChidori said:


> Sasuke prior to the Orochimaru absorption.



Then, I am going with Sasuke.  Childori seems like it would easily break through his bone defenses.

Lightning > Earth
The bloodline limit to manipulate calcium has to be earth manipulation + Something else.
Though whether it still suffers from that weakness given it's a combination of 2 is another question.  Meh, regardless I believe it would penetrate his bone armor.


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## Ersa (Feb 4, 2014)

We know that Kimimaro is capable of suppressing CS2 Juugo quite easily and the latter compared him to Hebi Sasuke. Speed is similar although Sasuke holds an advantage there with Sharingan which is somewhat mitigated by the fact that Kimimaro uses CS1 to boost his stats more often. CQC is dangerous for Sasuke as Kimimaro boasts a 5 in taijutsu and a Kekkai Genkai built for it while Sasuke merely has Chidori variants which is potent but not as good. Stamina-wise, a non-sick Kimimaro would appear to be quite the beast with his DB rating and stamina feats on his literal death-bed. Kabuto, a medic-nin comparable to Tsunade in some areas couldn't believe he could even move. Without his Hebi buffs, notably increased healing powers, snake meatshields, Manda and Oral Rebirth I think Kimimaro may just edge him out in CQC and land some senjutsu-bones in Sauce's face.

I'd favour healthy Kimimaro to win more times then not although Sasuke has a fair chance. Hebi would win decisively.


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## asstonine (Feb 4, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Without his Hebi buffs, notably increased healing powers, snake meatshields, Manda and Oral Rebirth



Aren't these just techniques Orochimaru taught Sasuke.  Why are you attributing these to the absorption of Orochimaru?  I guess you could construe the story that way, but I don't see why you would honestly.  He trained with Orochimaru for 2.5 years!  it only makes sense he learned his techniques!  Sort of like Anko Mitarashi. 

Look at Anko's wiki,
Snake Techniques

Anko knows several forbidden and snake-related techniques taught to her by Orochimaru, the most notable of which is Twin Snakes Mutual Death Technique — a murder-suicide technique she attempted to use to eliminate her former sensei in the Forest of Death for the sake of her village.[15]


Sasuke hasn't been using them much as of late, because MS is stupidly OP!


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## ARGUS (Feb 4, 2014)

asstonine said:


> Aren't these just techniques Orochimaru taught Sasuke.  Why are you attributing these to the absorption of Orochimaru?
> Sasuke hasn't been using them much as of late, because MS is stupidly OP!



Sasuke had those abilities since he absorbed orochimaru
after his fight with itachi,, itachi managed to seal away orochimaru 
and so he lost all his orochimaru powers 
Its not that he hasnt been using them,, its that he cant


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 4, 2014)

The problem Kimi runs into is Sasuke's lethality.  Chidori eiso should slice through him, and even though Kimi is just as fast and more skilled in taijutsu than Sasuke, and can probably hold his own, Sasuke still has 3 tomoe sharingan and all the raitons to bypass his durability.  

Though since Kimi's bones can go head to head samurai swords with chakra flow, it's arguable he can produce a bone quality enough to stand up to Sasuke's sword and esio with knowledge.  However, the samurai sword did cut into the bone some, and kusunagi is better than a generic sword, and raiton is a greater cutting force than regular flow, so with this level of knowledge, his standard sword probably gets cleaved through if he tries to defend, and he himself will also get sliced in half or stabbed in the heart, and I don't think he can survive that.


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## asstonine (Feb 4, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Sasuke had those abilities since he absorbed orochimaru
> after his fight with itachi,, itachi managed to seal away orochimaru
> and so he lost all his orochimaru powers
> Its not that he hasnt been using them,, its that he cant



When was this explained?  I must have missed it!  If it isn't stated, then it just sounds like a really bad assumption imo.
We know they trained for 2.5 years, so why doesn't he know any of orochimaru's techniques?
Why is it Anko still has snake techniques?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Feb 4, 2014)

Sasuke slices and dices with Chidori Eisou.


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## Silver Surfer (Feb 4, 2014)

Sasuke still takes this.


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## Raiken (Jan 11, 2015)

I believe it's a very close fight, if Kimi wasn't ill.... well.
But as it stands Sasuke wins High Diff.


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## Patrick (Jan 11, 2015)

I see them as around the same level but I feel like Sasuke is actually quite well equipped to fight Kimi. I'd give it to him High dif.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 11, 2015)

Kimi wins.

His reflexes and reactions are to good to be caught by a chidori or any variant, and anything short of that isn't killing Kimi. And can't Sasuke only use Chidori like 4-5 times a day. Hell Naruto couldn't even scratch Kimi at all, Lee was having hella trouble and Gaara was having a hard time catching him aswell.

And if Sasuke goes in for a CQ Chidori than Kimi will skewer him with a bone.

Also Kimi was able to fight on par with a KCM Naruto clone.

Kimi bones Sasuke 10/10 mid diff.


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## Ghost (Jan 11, 2015)

^ The Uchiha really do rustle your jimmies, don't they?

Guy who had trouble defeating part 1 Gaara and Lee mid diffing someone who would've stomped them in less than 10 seconds? 



IchLiebe said:


> His reflexes and reactions are to good to be caught by a chidori or any variant,


How so? Base Sasuke speed blitzed Team Kakashi which is far better than anything Kimi has done. On top of much superior speed Sasuke has a three tomoe Sharingan to predict where Kimimaro will desperately run to.


> and anything short of that isn't killing Kimi.


Kimi's passive durability is nothing special and will be damaged by Sasuke's Kusanagi if he is not utilizing his Kekkei Genkai.


> And can't Sasuke only use Chidori like 4-5 times a day.


lol no?


> Hell Naruto couldn't even scratch Kimi at all, Lee was having hella trouble and Gaara was having a hard time catching him aswell.


You are actually comparing part 1 Naruto, Lee and Gaara to post-skip Sasuke who is far stronger than any of them?


> And if Sasuke goes in for a CQ Chidori than Kimi will skewer him with a bone.


Trying to figure out here how exactly Kimimaro is skewering a much faster opponent with precognition. Also its not like Sasuke has a 5 meter long lightning sword or anything.



> Also Kimi was able to fight on par with a KCM Naruto clone.


Hahahhahahahahh


> Kimi bones Sasuke 10/10 mid diff.



Sasuke lolstomps no diff.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 11, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> ^ The Uchiha really do rustle your jimmies, don't they?



Nope, got no problem with Sasuke.



> Guy who had trouble defeating part 1 Gaara and Lee mid diffing someone who would've stomped them in less than 10 seconds?



You do know Kimmi had got off his deathbed and went to fight them. 



> How so? Base Sasuke speed blitzed Team Kakashi which is far better than anything Kimi has done. On top of much superior speed Sasuke has a three tomoe Sharingan to predict where Kimimaro will desperately run to.



Sasuke blitzed Naruto and Sakura. Sai and Yamato had no problem keeping up. Three tomoe means shit when Kimmi is massively superior taijutsu user.



> Kimi's passive durability is nothing special and will be damaged by Sasuke's Kusanagi if he is not utilizing his Kekkei Genkai.



Kim can heal. He had holes in his body and regenerated like it was nothing.



> lol no?



He can't use it forever.



> You are actually comparing part 1 Naruto, Lee and Gaara to post-skip Sasuke who is far stronger than any of them?



In speed Lee and Gaara aren't that far behind. Gaara can react while Lee is close to being that fast.



> Trying to figure out here how exactly Kimimaro is skewering a much faster opponent with precognition. Also its not like Sasuke has a 5 meter long lightning sword or anything.



Kimi is better at taijutsu and that is confirmed to be good against Sharingan users (Bee vs Sasuke, Lee vs Sasuke, Zabuza vs Part 1 Kakashi (Zabuza got him a couple of times). 

Samarui chakra enhanced blades couldn't cut Kimi's bones and they clashed with Sasuke's raiton sword. So no eiso does shit here.


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## Ghost (Jan 11, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> You do know Kimmi had got off his deathbed and went to fight them.


You do know that nothing in the manga indicate that Kimimaro's stats were lowered by the illness. He was just a ticking time bomb. 



> Sasuke blitzed Naruto and Sakura. Sai and Yamato had no problem keeping up.


Sai and Yamato might have been able to react to Sasuke's speed but it doesn't mean they had no problems with it. They were hopelessly outclassed in CQC. 

Just by being able to hang with serious post-skip Kakashi puts Naruto way above Gaara and Lee in speed and reactions. And considering how Gaara and Lee had no problems with Kimimaro's movement speed further proves that Sasuke is a lot faster than Kimimaro. 


> Three tomoe means shit when Kimmi is massively superior taijutsu user.


Uhh, what? Made up statements hold no meaning in here. 

Kimimaro's superior (and not by that much) Taijutsu skill doesn't change the fact that he is outclassed against superior speed, precognition and experience. 




> Kim can heal. He had holes in his body and regenerated like it was nothing.


Kimimaro can't regenerate from getting his throat slashed, decapitation or his torso getting completely destroyed.




> He can't use it forever.


Well he doesn't have to.




> In speed Lee and Gaara aren't that far behind. Gaara can react while Lee is close to being that fast.


Yeah, no. Neither of them can react to Sasuke's speed if post-skip Naruto couldn't and Lee is far from being as fast as Sasuke.



> Kimi is better at taijutsu and that is confirmed to be good against Sharingan users


Yeah its good against Sharingan if you're also way faster and more experienced.


> (Bee vs Sasuke,


Kenjutsu not Taijutsu


> Lee vs Sasuke,


Lee was way ahead of Sasuke in all physical stats and Sasuke only had two tomoe back then.


> Zabuza vs Part 1 Kakashi (Zabuza got him a couple of times).


Kakashi was rusty, only had one Sharingan and isn't even Uchiha.


> Samarui chakra enhanced blades couldn't cut Kimi's bones and they clashed with Sasuke's raiton sword. So no eiso does shit here.


Samurai dudes only had chakra flowing through their weapons while Sasuke has Lightning affinity chakra which is way superior. Also Sasuke never clashed swords with the fodder Samurai, he only cut them up.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 11, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> You do know that nothing in the manga indicate that Kimimaro's stats were lowered by the illness. He was just a ticking time bomb.



Don't you ever fucking talk about Itachi being sick again. We actually saw Kimi on his fucking deathbed, Orochimaru and Kabuto had a discussion about how there should've been no way for him to get up much less fight and he did. The only reason he lost was because his illness killed him.



> Sai and Yamato might have been able to react to Sasuke's speed but it doesn't mean they had no problems with it. They were hopelessly outclassed in CQC.



Sai blocked and counter Sasuke in CQC. Yamato similiarly blocked but was overpowered by raiton flow. Sasuke hardly beat them in taijutsu. He mainly won because of ninjutsu (raiton flow and chidori nagashi).



> Just by being able to hang with serious post-skip Kakashi puts Naruto way above Gaara and Lee in speed and reactions. And considering how Gaara and Lee had no problems with Kimimaro's movement speed further proves that Sasuke is a lot faster than Kimimaro.



Naruto said Kakashi was too fast and he coudn't keep up with his handseal speed. That's means Kakashi's pretty fast right . Drunk Lee (who was faster than base lee who was a 4.0, part 2 Sasuke was 4.5) had better taijutsu and could barely land one hit on Kimi. Sasuke just ain't in taijutsu.



> Uhh, what? Made up statements hold no meaning in here.



Lee even said good enough taijutsu is sharingan's weakness. That's how Zabuza hit Kakashi, how Bee destroyed Sasuke, how raikage body slammed Sasuke, how Lee destroyed Sasuke, etc. We've seen it and everything.



> Kimimaro's superior (and not by that much) Taijutsu skill doesn't change the fact that he is outclassed against superior speed, precognition and experience.



Kimi's taijutsu stat is 5. His speed stat is 4.5.
Sasuke's taijutsu stat is 3.5. His speed stat is 4.5. 
So kimi has massively superior taijutsu and around the same speed.

Don't know where you got experience from. 



> Kimimaro can't regenerate from getting his throat slashed, decapitation or his torso getting completely destroyed.



He had HOLES through his body, and it did nothing to him. Notice that there's only two bone users, Kimimaro and Kaguya.



> Well he doesn't have to.



He won't get to, Kimi destroys him.



> Yeah, no. Neither of them can react to Sasuke's speed if post-skip Naruto couldn't and Lee is far from being as fast as Sasuke.



Lee has a 4.0 in speed and drunk Lee got a noticeable speed boost, not far from a 4.5 IMO so yes.



> Yeah its good against Sharingan if you're also way faster and more experienced.



Nope, skill alone can beat a sharingan user. Speed overwhelms them and so can taijutsu skill. Kimmi is just as fast as Sasuke. He just doesn't use shunshin.



> Kenjutsu not Taijutsu



Kimi's better in both.



> Lee was way ahead of Sasuke in all physical stats and Sasuke only had two tomoe back then.



Lee had his weights on and we've seen skill outclass sharingan several times.



> Kakashi was rusty, only had one Sharingan and isn't even Uchiha.



And Kakashi is famous for that one sharingan. Kakashi had sharingan prediction, skill, and speed but Zabuza could still land.



> Samurai dudes only had chakra flowing through their weapons while Sasuke has Lightning affinity chakra which is way superior. Also Sasuke never clashed swords with the fodder Samurai, he only cut them up.



Mifune clashed with Sasuke with pure chakra flow and Sasuke lost. There's no difference between Mifune's chakra flow and the samurai's.


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## Ghost (Jan 11, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Don't you ever fucking talk about Itachi being sick again.


  

Itachi was actually stated to be much weaker due to his illness and was in way worse state than Kimimaro.


> We actually saw Kimi on his fucking deathbed, Orochimaru and Kabuto had a discussion about how there should've been no way for him to get up much less fight and he did.


Itachi would've died before fighting Sasuke had he not filled himself with all kinds of medicine. 


> The only reason he lost was because his illness killed him.




That is not the point. Of course he would've won had he not been ill. Without the illness he wouldn't have died just before piercing Gaara's head. *He was a ticking time bomb*. No statement in the manga that his stats were lowered by the illness.


> Sai blocked and counter Sasuke in CQC.


And Sasuke was targeting Naruto...



> He mainly won because of ninjutsu (raiton flow and chidori nagashi).


Which Kimimaro can't do shit against.



> Naruto said Kakashi was too fast and he coudn't keep up with his handseal speed.


Kakashi's hand seal speed isn't relevant here at all.


> That's means Kakashi's pretty fast right


Yeah, Kakashi is fast. far faster than part 1 Gaara, Kimimaro or Lee, and Naruto was able to hang with him in CQC.


> Drunk Lee (who was faster than base lee who was a 4.0, part 2 Sasuke was 4.5) had better taijutsu and could barely land one hit on Kimi. Sasuke just ain't in taijutsu.


lolDatabooks.

And drunk Lee is not faster than healthy base Lee. Gaara noted that Lee's movements were slower compared to when they fought. Being drunk doesn't make you faster, Lee's movements just became unpredictable.


> Lee even said good enough taijutsu is sharingan's weakness.


You need more than just good Taijutsu to beat Sharingan's precog.


> That's how Zabuza hit Kakashi,


Already addressed this.


> how Bee destroyed Sasuke,


Already addressed this. And Bee's Kenjutsu >>>>>>>>>>>> part 1 Lee's Taijutsu.


> how raikage body slammed Sasuke,


How is there any skill involved in body slamming? And you do realize that the speed difference between Sasuke and Ei was far bigger than between Lee and Sasuke?


> how Lee destroyed Sasuke, etc.


Yet again, Sasuke only had two tomoe Sharingan there and was physically inferior in every way.



> Kimi's taijutsu stat is 5. His speed stat is 4.5.
> Sasuke's taijutsu stat is 3.5. His speed stat is 4.5.


Stop using the fucking databook when it contradicts the manga


> So kimi has massively superior taijutsu and around the same speed.


*Sasuke's speed feats are far greater than Kimimaro's.*


> Don't know where you got experience from.


Sasuke is older and was directly trained by Orochimaru for 2.5 years.



> He had HOLES through his body, and it did nothing to him.


Those are not wholes. Its his bone armor beneath his skin he used to survive Gaara's sand prison. 


> Notice that there's only two bone users, Kimimaro and Kaguya.


Kimimaro god tier confirmed.




> He won't get to, Kimi destroys him.


Funny how you have nothing to back that up. 



> Lee has a 4.0 in speed and drunk Lee got a noticeable speed boost, not far from a 4.5 IMO so yes.


Lee was said to be slower due to his injuries and being drunk doesn't make you faster s.




> Nope, skill alone can beat a sharingan user. Speed overwhelms them and so can taijutsu skill. Kimmi is just as fast as Sasuke. He just doesn't use shunshin.


You keep claiming that Kimimaro is as fast as Sasuke with nothing to back that up while I have shown you solid evidence from the _manga_ that Sasuke is way faster. 



> Kimi's better in both.


You are killing my brain cells right now.



> Lee had his weights on and we've seen skill outclass sharingan several times.


How is this relevant? You're just further proving my claim.



> And Kakashi is famous for that one sharingan.


Doesn't mean jack shit. 1 sharingan < 2 sharingans. it's quite simple


> Kakashi had sharingan prediction, skill, and speed but Zabuza could still land.


Sasuke has better precogniton and speed.



> Mifune clashed with Sasuke with pure chakra flow and Sasuke lost. There's no difference between Mifune's chakra flow and the samurai's.



Sasuke did nothing but blocked Mifune's attack. That's it. He wasn't trying to overpower him.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 11, 2015)

1. Kimmi was on his fucking deathbed. Blood coming from his mouth. His body was moving solely on will power. 
2. Nothing has shown Sasuke is too fast for Kimi. He has a pretty fast shunshin. Kimi can perfectly react. 
3. Kimi's taijutsu feats>>>>>Sasuke's. Drunk Lee hurt and knocked out Gai. And he could barely land a hit on Kimi.
4. Sasuke has nothing to hurt Kimi. If he does, Kimi regenerates.


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## Ghost (Jan 11, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> 1. Kimmi was on his fucking deathbed. Blood coming from his mouth. His body was moving solely on will power.
> 2. Nothing has shown Sasuke is too fast for Kimi. He has a pretty fast shunshin. Kimi can perfectly react.
> 3. Kimi's taijutsu feats>>>>>Sasuke's. Drunk Lee hurt and knocked out Gai. And he could barely land a hit on Kimi.
> 4. Sasuke has nothing to hurt Kimi. If he does, Kimi regenerates.



Sasuke: Blitzes a Jounin level fighter and pressures two in CQC while hardly trying.

Kimimaro: Blitzed two Genins and barely defeated a Chuunin and a Genin (and his speed wasn't even a problem for them)

And your conclusion is that Kimi is not just as fast as but is actually stronger.  

You have nothing to prove that Kimi is even almost at Sasuke's level. Your bias is not valid proof. Sorry. On top of that you are claiming that Kimimaro has Raikage level durability and better regeneration than Tsunade.

And you can stop repeating like a broken record that Kimimaro's Taijutsu skills are better than Sasuke's because it doesn't fucking matter. Sasuke's way superior speed, precognition and Raiton Ninjutsu is too much for Kimimaro, he will never land a hit.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 11, 2015)

Sasuke wins this easily thanks to Genjutsu.

Even without that, his Raiton Ninjutsu make him more than a match for Kimimaro's bones in a physical clash. Katon gives him another option for doing damage, although it might not be sufficient to kill (but that might change if Sasuke draws on power from the Juin).

Summoning Manda isn't restricted, either...

And if there's any chance of Kirin happening...well, nothing changes, actually; this match is already totally one-sided.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 11, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Don't you ever fucking talk about Itachi being sick again. We actually saw Kimi on his fucking deathbed, Orochimaru and Kabuto had a discussion about how there should've been no way for him to get up much less fight and he did. The only reason he lost was because his illness killed him.



 I agree with this. Healthy Kimi >>> Sick Kimi is very obvious.





> Sai blocked and counter Sasuke in CQC. Yamato similiarly blocked but was overpowered by raiton flow. Sasuke hardly beat them in taijutsu. He mainly won because of ninjutsu (raiton flow and chidori nagashi).



 Sure he blocked, but there were no exclamation marks indicating that Sasuke definitely expected this. Sasuke literally did beat Yamato in taijutsu. Yamato simply couldn't react before Sasuke was able to stab him. But yes, most of it was Raiton flow, but considering his composure, he had no reason to put in full effort just to beat them. 

 But also, Sasuke managed to reach Naruto before Yamato could react, so he certainly could've blitzed them if he wanted to.





> Naruto said Kakashi was too fast and he coudn't keep up with his handseal speed. That's means Kakashi's pretty fast right . Drunk Lee (who was faster than base lee who was a 4.0, part 2 Sasuke was 4.5) had better taijutsu and could barely land one hit on Kimi. Sasuke just ain't in taijutsu.



 Base Lee doesn't even reach Sasuke's speed. Deidara could literally dance around Part 2 Lee, Neji, and Ten Ten and gave him an opportunity to set up his special jutsu when Sasuke almost blitzed Deidara the first time and would've killed him the second time if it wasn't for Tobi. Deidara didn't even have a chance to use his seals until he got some distance between him and Sasuke.





> Lee even said good enough taijutsu is sharingan's weakness. That's how Zabuza hit Kakashi, how Bee destroyed Sasuke, how raikage body slammed Sasuke, how Lee destroyed Sasuke, etc. We've seen it and everything.



 Good for you, but Lee's statement was made to somebody with 2 Tomoe Sharingan, not 3 Tomoe which managed to trash KN0 Naruto and dodge KN1 Naruto somewhat.

 I'll give you Zabuza and Kakashi along with Bee, but his kenjutsu is really astouding. Edo Itachi had to play it defensive when dealing with Bee's Kenjutsu in CQC and Edo Itachi could literally dodge SM Kabuto and set up a bushin feint afterwards. 





> Kimi's taijutsu stat is 5. His speed stat is 4.5.
> Sasuke's taijutsu stat is 3.5. His speed stat is 4.5.
> So kimi has massively superior taijutsu and around the same speed.



 4.5 doesn't suddenly mean similar speed. Kakashi can't blitz Deidara and yet Sasuke can and you're telling me that Kakashi is literally the same speed as Sasuke just because the Databook said so? Is Part 2 Lee suddenly as fast as Hebi Sasuke even though a crippled Deidara can literally avoid Lee, Tenten, and Neji yet can't do the same against Hebi Sasuke? Databook doesn't mean shit honestly. 



> Don't know where you got experience from.



 *sigh*





> He had HOLES through his body, and it did nothing to him. Notice that there's only two bone users, Kimimaro and Kaguya.



 I do agree with this. Kimimaro has pretty damn good durability somewhat along with good stamina as he can fight through a severe illness for so long, so I do agree with this.





> He won't get to, Kimi destroys him.



 How so?





> Lee has a 4.0 in speed and drunk Lee got a noticeable speed boost, not far from a 4.5 IMO so yes.



 Drunk Lee never got a speedboost. Drunk Lee was literally unpredictable which is why Kimi was having trouble.





> Nope, skill alone can beat a sharingan user. Speed overwhelms them and so can taijutsu skill. Kimmi is just as fast as Sasuke. He just doesn't use shunshin.



 Very true, but his precog is excellent. Able to react to V1 Ei who's quite a bit faster than Sasuke is. His Taijutsu at this point isn't as bad as you make it out to be. He can still get into a taijutsu clash with Sick Itachi and at least block a few of his hits (even though he was obviously outlclassed.)

 But you're right, Kimi can't use Shunshin, but Sasuke can .... Hmmmmmm





> Kimi's better in both.



 And what makes you say that?





> Lee had his weights on and we've seen skill outclass sharingan several times.



 Good except Sasuke has far superior precognition now.





> And Kakashi is famous for that one sharingan. Kakashi had sharingan prediction, skill, and speed but Zabuza could still land.



 Yet he was bushin feinted and put in a compromising position. At least Kakashi was able to dodge his slash doe.





> Mifune clashed with Sasuke with pure chakra flow and Sasuke lost. There's no difference between Mifune's chakra flow and the samurai's.



 This is very true, but ....

 it did nothing to him

 So thus, Mifune chakra flow is indeed >> Samurai chakra flow. Sasuke literally effortlessly deflected it. 

 But also, I don't remember Sasuke losing in a clash against Mifune as I just checked back and it showed no indication of that. Do you have any scans to prove that.



 As for the topic, I personally like to say that they're pretty much equals or at least were portrayed to be equals after the death of Orochimaru. Personally, I can see Sasuke winning this high difficulty.  Sasuke is very fast, along with Kimi and taijutsu would be pointless for Hebi Sasuke considering Kimimaro's proficiency in taijutsu as well as his bones making CQC pointless for Sasuke. Sasuke does gain the upperhand with Chidori Nagashi and Chidori Eisou which could potentially numb Kimimaro, but due to CS and enhanced durability compared to Yamato who could still create a hand seal and use jutsus afterwards seems to imply that it won't be as easy as simple shape manipulation to subdue Kimi. Long story short, this is where both go into CS2 and as Sasuke's very intelligent and has shown very good use of genjutsu as shown against Danzo, so Sasuke could potentially use genjutsu on Kimi and then backstab him with Chidori and as Kimi has no usage of bushin feints, that's pretty much game over though it'd be a lot more difficult to perform as well as Kimimaro's feats of being able to create an entire forest of gigantic bone blades.

 Still, I give it to Sasuke, very high-difficulty.


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## Bloo (Jan 11, 2015)

Sasuke takes this with low difficulty. To me, Kimmimaro is one of the most overrated characters in the Battledome. Part I Gaara was a lot of trouble for Kimmimaro and Kimmimaro was pushed to using his strongest techniques against him.

Pre-Hebi Sasuke is in an entirely different ballpark and I just don't see how anyone can compare them in strength. I honestly can't see Kimmimaro winning this. With Sharingan pre-cog, flight from CS, I see Sasuke as having counters to anything Kimmimaro can dish at him. While Kimmimaro has no defenses to genjutsu.

Sasuke takes this very easily.


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## Punished Pathos (Jan 11, 2015)

Kimimaro got this 

He was portrayed to be Hebi Sasuke level

I'm still torn


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

tbh i think people are being dense. Sasuke cannot blitz kimi
using kimi part one feats is <snip> considering the power inflation. unless you are saying KCm naruto clone is slower than the likes of part 1 lee. Cuz the clone was there, and he didnt just lol rape kimimaro. I am not saying kimimaro is KCM equal. Faaar from that 

worse of all when you consider haku who is blitzing sai yet sasuke can intercept him. granted he was exhausted but still. Part 1 feats were made irrelevant by part 2


While i say sasuke would win, due to genjutsu trickery its a tough tough battle and to kimi advantage till the obvious genjutsu

note sasuke deflected the samurai chakra slashes. he did not cut through them. if his chakra flow was sharper he would have been able to. 

kimi should have no issues clashing with sasuke raiton flow seeing that in base he could clash with samurai chakra flow. Sasuke in CQC would get overwhelmed 

even if kimi is slower than B, unlike B kimi  has more bones and doesnt need complicated maneuvering to strike. he can simply spin round and sasuke can have anything from 0-50 bones coming at him 

kimi has always been horribly underestimated. orochimaru did make a statement which people ignore. in part 1 orochimaru believed one, that if kimi were there he wont have lost his arms and 2 that no one in konoha could defeat him at that time. 

why do people dismiss that yet go on about jiraiya hype statements or minato's etc


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## Ghost (Jan 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sasuke cannot blitz kimi


Yes he can.


> using kimi part one feats is retarded considering the power inflation.


Part 1 feats are only feats he has.


> unless you are saying KCm naruto clone is slower than the likes of part 1 lee.


Great logic. Both Naruto's speed and clones were very inconsistent throughout the war.


> Cuz the clone was there, and he didnt just lol rape kimimaro.


1. Kimimaro wasn't the only opponent in there
2. Naruto was running out of chakra and stamina



> note sasuke deflected the samurai chakra slashes. he did not cut through them. if his chakra flow was sharper he would have been able to.


Sasuke only clashed sword with Mifune and even then only to block Mifune's attack. 


> kimi should have no issues clashing with sasuke raiton flow seeing that in base he could clash with samurai chakra flow.


Sasuke >>>>>>> Samurai fodder


> Sasuke in CQC would get overwhelmed


How exactly? Sasuke if far faster and has precogniton. On top of that Chidori variants such as Chidori Nagashi, Chidori Eisou and Chidorigatana. 


> even if kimi is slower than B,


Kimimaro is multiple tiers slower than Bee. 


> unlike B kimi  has more bones and doesnt need complicated maneuvering to strike. he can simply spin round and sasuke can have anything from 0-50 bones coming at him


While Kimi is dancing around like a retard Sasuke can simply just stab his face with a five meter long Chidori Spear. 


> kimi has always been horribly underestimated.


He is massively overrated.


> orochimaru did make a statement which people ignore. in part 1 orochimaru believed one, that if kimi were there he wont have lost his arms and 2 that no one in konoha could defeat him at that time.


Iruka also said that Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage. 


> why do people dismiss that yet go on about jiraiya hype statements or minato's etc



Such as?


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## SoleAccord (Jan 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> tbh i think people are being dense. Sasuke cannot blitz kimi



Yes, he can. This distance offers minimal opportunity for Kimimaro to 'get serious' and Sasuke can run him through before the Curse Seal is even a factor for him. Sasuke's speed is too underestimated here.



> using kimi part one feats is retarded considering the power inflation.



Panels showing us Kimimaro's Part 2 feats please.



> Part 1 feats were made irrelevant by part 2



Kimimaro's strongest showing was in Part 1, so if his efforts are largely irrelevant back then, well, what's that leave him in Part 2? I don't remember a huge showing by him. Panels please.



> While i say sasuke would win, due to genjutsu trickery its a tough tough battle and to kimi advantage till the obvious genjutsu



He has more options than Genjutsu, but alright.



> note sasuke deflected the samurai chakra slashes. he did not cut through them. if his chakra flow was sharper he would have been able to.



I remember Sasuke taking down the samurai without breaking a sweat, and not even bothering to take Mifune seriously once Danzo was in his sight.



> kimi should have no issues clashing with sasuke raiton flow seeing that in base he could clash with samurai chakra flow. Sasuke in CQC would get overwhelmed



Raiton Flow cuts clean, Kimimaro's strongest defenses are against blunt force. Are you putting fodder samurai chakra flow above Sasuke's showing with Raiton Flow?



> even if kimi is slower than B, unlike B kimi  has more bones and doesnt need complicated maneuvering to strike. he can simply spin round and sasuke can have anything from 0-50 bones coming at him



Sharingan precognition coupled with the speed to avoid them - if he's bored, Curse Seal V2 and Wing tank, but I doubt he'll waste the energy with Kimimaro when he can end him without it. 



> kimi has always been horribly underestimated. orochimaru did make a statement which people ignore. in part 1 orochimaru believed one, that if kimi were there he wont have lost his arms and 2 that no one in konoha could defeat him at that time.



Didn't you just say Part 1 is made irrelevant by Part 2 because of retarded power inflation? Orochimaru believed a lot of things, and hell they might have been true, but he's not facing anyone from Part 1. Orochimaru's hype was good praise, but if that's all you got, then...



> why do people dismiss that yet go on about jiraiya hype statements or minato's etc



No idea ...maybe because they had fights with people that weren't 12-13 year old children to back up their reputations and skills. 

Raiton Flow is too powerful a tool, Sharingan precognition makes Kimimaro's bone projectiles and speed in CQC quite useless, and Kimimaro's knowledge offers him nothing. Sharingan and Curse Seal knowledge give him nothing he can stop, while Sasuke knows about his Kekkei Genkai AND his trump card seal. Kimimaro is slower in V2, if he enters that he's done for. Bone Masks under Kimimaro's skin won't matter, Raiton Flow is going to slice through like butter. 

This is an imbalanced match, surprised anyone can hand this to Kimimaro given what's on the table here. 
*
 Sasuke Wins- Low Difficulty*, and I don't even feel bad for calling it like this. Bringing up Chidori Nagashi isn't even necessary, which would make this _No Difficulty_, but I doubt Sasuke would waste it on an opponent he knows damn near everything about AND has a superior showing. The only advantage Kimimaro may have here is Sasuke treating him like a joke, but unfortunately for him he can't make use of Pre-Hebi Sasuke's mindset because he just doesn't have the scaling and portrayal to support him taking him down. Kimimaro will be lucky to last even a minute if Sasuke bothers to get serious.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

A simple panel of Kimi being faster in part 2 is him clashing with multiple samurai without being blitz 
Unless you are all implying that part 1 lee is faster than samurai during the war 
I would laugh if that is a serious statement from anyone . When part 1 lee flat out stated he needs gates to beat Neji thanks to the high speed . Neji who was getting shit blitz by every single jounin and hayate who isn't even a jounin

If Kimi was as slow as his part 1 feats he would have been blitz from the start he wouldn't even see them move
Yet he was dispatching them 

Hope that clarifies things 

As for jiriaya and Minato hype . Jiriaya can take on itachi and Kisame.  That shit is debated to no end. Minato being the fastest as well 
Why should those hype get any time of day if orochimaru hype about kimimaro doesn't 

Sasuke is faster than Kimi no doubt , the same way Ei was faster than EDo madara it didn't stop madara from blocking him though . Reaction and battle experience people .  If you have ever played tennis or table tennis 
You would know that a good portion of the time u return the ball on reaction not because you have seen it coming your way 

Juugo could react to Ei V1 while in his kid form. Kimimaro simple hype of being Able
To causally physically suppress him puts him very very far above his part 1 feats unless anyone thinks part 1 lee and gaara can actually stall juugo if so make a thread with a poll please

also note that Kimi latter recanted control of the curse seal with partial transformation puts him above anything shown in part 1 . Considering in part 1 he got slower with it . How would someone with so little control be able to pull off partial transformations ???

Part 1 is irrelevant people


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## SoleAccord (Jan 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> A simple panel of Kimi being faster in part 2 is him clashing with multiple samurai without being blitz



Please list the speed and reaction feats of Land of Iron Samurai. Kimimaro is anti-CQC to begin with, the fact none of them were touching him does not come as a surprise - but none of them are Sasuke Uchiha with Raiton Flow, Sharingan Precognition, and powerful close-quarters ninjutsu. 

Actually I don't even know what's going on anymore. You already said Sasuke wins this right? What are we talking about?


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

SoleAccord said:


> Please list the speed and reaction feats of Land of Iron Samurai. Kimimaro is anti-CQC to begin with, the fact none of them were touching him does not come as a surprise - but none of them are Sasuke Uchiha with Raiton Flow, Sharingan Precognition, and powerful close-quarters ninjutsu.
> 
> Actually I don't even know what's going on anymore. You already said Sasuke wins this right? What are we talking about?



Please show sasuke raiton flow cutting throw the samurai chakra flow 
Sasuke raiton flow deflected it . That implies they are as sharp 

I don't need to list feats you are being silly. Kimi surpress juugo who can react to V1 Ei

It's obvious Kimi abilities were affected in part 1

Unless you think part 1 lee with no gates can last 3 seconds against jugo 

you just said it Kimi is anti cqc and nothing at all indicates Anythinf short of chidori who punch a hole in Kimi base bone plates 

Considering a bone shard can block chakra flow 
And bone plates are more durable 

Amp it up with cs2 and I see no reason why chidori cannot be blocked . Cs2 skin from juugo was able to resist for abit Ei first running through it 

Sasuke wins but high difficulty . 

Kimi has the hype of surpressing jugo , being able to contend with konoha top on part 1 
Yet people go on about his part 1 feats . When it was clearly stated that he would have been much stronger if he weren't sick 

Why do people go on about how itachi sickness weakness him but not kimimaro
Who was stated to be moving only through will power ???


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## SoleAccord (Jan 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Please show sasuke raiton flow cutting throw the samurai chakra flow
> Sasuke raiton flow deflected it . That implies they are as sharp



I could probably look up some pictures of them getting dumpstered by him, but as far as Sasuke bothering to use Raiton Flow on fodder, probably not. Sasuke has a habit of saving his strength unless the situation calls for it, and sometimes it bites him in the ass, but in this match it wouldn't. 



> I don't need to list feats you are being silly. Kimi surpress juugo who can react to V1 Ei



Sasuke suppresses Juugo by looking him in the eye. I'm not sure why Juugo is brought into this, but okay.



> It's obvious Kimi abilities were affected in part 1
> 
> Unless you think part 1 lee with no gates can last 3 seconds against jugo



Lee with Gates can't even defeat Kimimaro. And why all the words in my mouth man? 



> you just said it Kimi is anti cqc and nothing at all indicates Anythinf short of chidori who punch a hole in Kimi base bone plates



Chidori is Raiton. Raiton Flow and Raiton Ninjutsu give Sasuke an edge in CQC, it always had. Observe Sasuke casually handing Team Yamato their ass.



> Considering a bone shard can block chakra flow
> And bone plates are more durable



Kimimaro has hype against blunt-force fighters who were half his age. There is nothing suggesting, to me, that Kimimaro can withstand Raiton Flow when it has been shown to carve through things like butter. 



> Amp it up with cs2 and I see no reason why chidori cannot be blocked . Cs2 skin from juugo was able to resist for abit Ei first running through it



CS2 Kimimaro is slower - Gaara confirmed it, Kimimaro did not deny it either. Sasuke can't be overtaken by a slower Kimimaro, especially when he has full knowledge.



> Sasuke wins but high difficulty .



Sasuke wins - all that mattered to me, really. I disagree on the difficulty but its whatever, the conclusion is the same.



> Kimi has the hype of surpressing jugo , being able to contend with konoha top on part 1
> Yet people go on about his part 1 feats . When it was clearly stated that he would have been much stronger if he weren't sick



Sasuke suppressed Juugo as well - Pre-Hebi Sasuke was handing two ANBU and two fellow Sannin disciples their ass (Sakura didn't fight but I mean what the fuck was she going to do? Yamato had to stop her because he recognized how dangerous attempting taijutsu would be). Kimimaro's strength without sickness would likely be major, but we can only speculate how far it would go since there's nothing but Orochimaru's word that Kimimaro would be incredibly powerful. That's the thing man. 



> Why do people go on about how itachi sickness weakness him but not kimimaro
> Who was stated to be moving only through will power ???



Barking up the wrong tree, cause I don't get into that kind of stuff. You must be complaining about other debaters.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

Raiton flow was shown on par with the samurai chakra flow 
Prove otherwise 
Nothing suggests it 
Kimi can block the samurai chakra flow 
He would block sasuke raiton flow 

Kimimaro was only slower in cs2 due to his illment
He obviously has perfect control hence why he can partial transform like sasuke 
I don't see how perfect control implies he would be slower in a normal situation 

Sasuke wins . It's dismissing kimimaro abilities that makes no sense

Jugo is brought up because both Kimi and sasuke can surpress him with ease
Difference is Kimi physically suppressed jugo

Obviously the feats displayed by Kimi in part 1 in no Way indicate he should be able to surpress jugo easily 

Clearly that shows being sick weakned him greatly . I don't see how that's not obvious


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## SoleAccord (Jan 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Raiton flow was shown on par with the samurai chakra flow
> Prove otherwise
> Nothing suggests it
> Kimi can block the samurai chakra flow
> He would block sasuke raiton flow



I guess the closest thing would be Sasuke casually using his own Raiton flow to slice the projectile flow of the Samurai in half.  It must mean Sasuke's flow is superior in some form, no? If it were even, I think Sasuke would have struggled to deflect it. 

No matter how you look at it the Samurai are fodder in comparison to damn near anyone. You can't compare Sasuke's ability to them, it's not even fair. Sasuke has always been portrayed as a superior combatant to any standard opponent - Samurai are standard opponents unless Mifune is mixed.

Difference between you and I is that I'm not trying to hype up Sasuke's showing against fodders, you are. You suggested that because A was ineffective against B, that C would automatically be ineffective because the concept is the same. I don't like that logic, especially when Samurai use BASIC chakra flow without a recognizable nature behind it unlike Asuma or Sasuke.

Also, if we're playing the 'My guy beat more fodder!' game, then Sasuke already won... 



> Kimimaro was only slower in cs2 due to his illment



That wasn't how it was suggested here - do you have a different scan that proves that Kimimaro's slowness in CS2 was due to illness? 



> Sasuke wins . It's dismissing kimimaro abilities that makes no sense



No one's dismissing them - it's just that Kimimaro loses, difficulty aside. You admit this. 



> Jugo is brought up because both Kimi and sasuke can surpress him with ease
> Difference is Kimi physically suppressed jugo




Sasuke only needed his Sharingan to do so, no physical grabbing required. Still don't see the point of this dick swinging contest for Juugo.



> Obviously the feats displayed by Kimi in part 1 in no Way indicate he should be able to surpress jugo easily
> 
> Clearly that shows being sick weakned him greatly . I don't see how that's not obvious



Sucks for Kimimaro I guess. I'm still taking panel feats and portrayal over 'what might have been'. That's not enough evidence for me, sorry.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2015)

SoleAccord said:


> I guess the closest thing would be Sasuke casually using his own Raiton flow to slice the projectile flow of the Samurai in half.  It must mean Sasuke's flow is superior in some form, no? If it were even, I think Sasuke would have struggled to deflect it.
> 
> No matter how you look at it the Samurai are fodder in comparison to damn near anyone. You can't compare Sasuke's ability to them, it's not even fair. Sasuke has always been portrayed as a superior combatant to any standard opponent - Samurai are standard opponents unless Mifune is mixed.
> 
> ...




Sasuke did not slice the chakra attacks in half 
I couldn't care to read the rest if you cannot be even honest about that 
And using A>B>C logic works here 
If you cannot cut iron you would not be as to cut through steal using the same object 

Raiton flow was shown deflecting the samurai chakra flow 
The rest of that thought process you know


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## SoleAccord (Jan 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sasuke did not slice the chakra attacks in half
> I couldn't care to read the rest if you cannot be even honest about that
> And using A>B>C logic works here
> If you cannot cut iron you would not be as to cut through steal using the same object
> ...



Deflect, repel, slice, whatever. The idea is that it was ineffective compared to Sasuke's own abilities. If they were on the same level as you claim them to be, then wouldn't Sasuke have struggled if the flow was meant to be even? Raiton slices, does the Samurai fodder chakra flow have a feat I'm not remembering unlike Sasuke's Raiton? If so, you could have showed me this. You won't read the rest because any ground you had is slowly dwindling, but I don't need to look for an easy way out of this debate by claiming that 'I won't read the rest' because I'm confident in my own arguments.

You cannot prove CS2 Kimi was slower because of his illness, therefore you concede on that point then, you just don't have the courage to admit it. 

Your wank of Kimimaro suppressing Juugo stopped once I told you Sasuke's eyes did what Kimimaro's entire body had to do.

You placed the chakra flow of fodder Samurai (and also did not provide reaction or speed feats to suggest they're some huge threat to Kimimaro) on equal ground with Sasuke Uchiha, who has had a better portrayal in a single chapter in Shippuden than the entire force of Samurai fodder put together. I should have stopped humoring you at this point, but I continued to give you an opportunity to make a strong case as to why Kimimaro is harder to deal with than most of us think because I actually tend to respect people I dedicate time to responding to in this section, unlike you. You gave up and instead of making Kimimaro out to be strong, instead try to make Sasuke look weaker at whatever opportunity you chose. Samurai chakra flow does not have the feats that Sasuke's does, nor the element behind them, but you'll continue to claim they're equal to Sasuke because why the hell not, it's not like you can make Kimimaro look better, yeah?

Unless you have a trump card for this debate you've kept hidden, I think we're done here Icegaze. Terrible fucking showing - any point I offered you to make you tried to deflect and turn on me, and I think you know why as well as I do. 

*Sasuke wins.* _You admitted this._ Nothing more needs to be said. No longer responding to you unless you have something worth responding to, because 'I won't bother to read anything you say' speaks more about who you are as a debater than any argument prior to that point. That doesn't make you a better person, that just means you need a way out. I'll leave you to your smilies and bad attitude, maybe Saikyou will come back and humor this.

Gonna go make dinner now... deuces. 



EDIT - Let me just get Ich out of the way because I know he's probably gonna get in on this and I'm getting tired of this topic. It was imbalanced from the start anyway. One last loose end to tie up~



IchLiebe said:


> Kimi wins.



Go on.



> His reflexes and reactions are to good to be caught by a chidori or any variant,



He only has knowledge of Sharingan and Curse Mark, not Sasuke's Chidori variants. Naruto, Sai, and Yamato had no knowledge and everything he bothered to throw at them caught them off guard.





> and anything short of that isn't killing Kimi.



I'd give a good Raiton Flow decapitation consideration myself.



> And can't Sasuke only use Chidori like 4-5 times a day.



Without knowledge on his Chidori variants, I doubt Sasuke's going to need more than one move because he has the element of surprise. Meanwhile Sasuke knows all about Kimimaro's Kekkei Genkai and Curse Mark. 



> Hell Naruto couldn't even scratch Kimi at all



With pure taijutsu if I'm remembering right, no attempt at Rasengan. Could be wrong, I'll admit, but Naruto was a 12 year old boy with no finesse and a lack of wide variety of options. Sasuke is older, wiser, and has much more power than a KN0 Naruto at 12.



> Lee was having hella trouble



He just wrapped up surgery, but Kimimaro is an anti-taijutsu (This variation of Sasuke was strongly anti-CQC. Go check on Naruto, Sai and Yamato in that 1 minute asswhooping for me) and blunt force enduring machine, yes. Kimimaro shits on Part 1 Lee effortlessly, canon. Lee was still weakened to an extent - he was meant to be resting, but went on to help his comrades. Not that it matters, Gates would still be useless. 



> and Gaara was having a hard time catching him aswell.



With only sand in his gourd, yes. Then Kimimaro got overwhelmed by Gaara's sand grinding. Again, you're comparing 12 year olds who are significantly weaker than their Shippuden counterparts to a Sasuke significantly stronger and overwhelmingly more dangerous and unpredictable than all three of those kids combined. Not really sure how that helps make Kimimaro look better - this Sasuke isn't Part 1. Kimimaro is evasive, he outperformed a taijutsu student and could handle Gaara's sand. But Sasuke's faster than both of them, undeniable. The comparisons for part 1 feats of power against part 2 just don't work. Sasuke by portrayal and feats had a better showing against four opponents, two ANBU level and two students of Sannin and one a Jinchuuriki, than Kimimaro did against three 12 year old genin and a significantly weaker Jinchuuriki than the Shippuden version.

I just ...don't get why so much props are given against 12 year olds back in part 1 that still managed to outlast Kimimaro for all his skill and hype. Kimimaro would have won without being sick, not denying it, but the hype can only go so far when your opponents are half your age and one just got out of surgery.



> And if Sasuke goes in for a CQ Chidori than Kimi will skewer him with a bone.



Sasuke has knowledge and a 3-tomoe Sharingan. At 2-tomoe he could avoid the retaliation spikes from Gaara's sand dome when he was 12 years old in the Chuunin Finals and he had NO knowledge of his sand other than what Kakashi told him, and Kakashi wouldn't have known about that dome because he never did it against Lee. A Sasuke trained by a Sannin and significantly stronger than his Chuunin counterpart is not falling for that when he has knowledge. Kimimaro has to work just to avoid Sasuke's eyes, genjutsu gg could apply here.



> Also Kimi was able to fight on par with a KCM Naruto clone.



One significantly weakened and overexerted. Not to mention they didn't even get a dedicated fight and Naruto's attention ended up given to opponents that make Kimimaro look like Part 1 Sakura.Yeah, guess he gets props for that. Naruto was taxed immensely, we can't just pretend he was at 100% as all this went on ...unless ...you have panels supporting that the KCM clone was actually at full power and wasn't taxed?

If I were still interested in debating this I'd ask for more edo feats but ... nevermind  



> Kimi bones Sasuke 10/10 mid diff.



K.

 All right, that's it for me, I'm out of the debate here, made my points, countered what was necessary. Deuces for real this time.


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## Bloo (Jan 13, 2015)

To Icegaze, the reason why Kimmimaro's illness is massively overlooked whereas Itachi's isn't is because Itachi's sickness was much more visible in the fight. Kimmimaro's illness seemed just as a ticking timebomb. If anything, it was a way for Kishimoto to simply kill him for plot's sake to spare Gaara and Lee. During the fight itself, you see no signs indicating he is sick.

However, with Itachi you see him coughing up blood, hardly having the ability to see, and struggling to walk. If you want to try to contend that Kimmimaro's illness was just as negligent to his fighting prowess as Itachi's, then that's your perogative. It just makes no sense to contend that, in my eyes. Furthermore, we've seen Itachi fight outside of his sickened state in his battle with Sasuke. We've seen his performances, so we can adjust appropriately. Even further, most people only think of "Healthy Itachi" as being an Itachi that isn't going to be coughing blood and fall over dead in the battle and has healthy vision. Nothing about that is irrational for Healthy Itachi to have as buffs over his sickened state. Thus, the whole adjusting Kimmimaro's power level due to sickness becomes entirely moot because we just know his illness killed him. We don't know anything else.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 13, 2015)

Bloo said:


> To Icegaze, the reason why Kimmimaro's illness is massively overlooked whereas Itachi's isn't is because Itachi's sickness was much more visible in the fight. Kimmimaro's illness seemed just as a ticking timebomb. If anything, it was a way for Kishimoto to simply kill him for plot's sake to spare Gaara and Lee. During the fight itself, you see no signs indicating he is sick.


Horseshit. I can reason Itachi's supposed illness to MS usages and the medication could range from being antibiotics, pain killers, or etc.

 Kimimaro was hooked up to a machine being pumped full of medicine. 
couldn't do jackshit to it.
couldn't do jackshit to it.
Link removed
Link removed

Orochimaru and Kabuto were surprised he could move much less fight. He was using his will power to move.

Link removed

Link removed

It was Orochimaru's sole reason for not obtaining the body that he desired most of any, including Sasuke and Itachi.



> However, with Itachi you see him *.coughing up blood, hardly having the ability to see, and struggling to walk.*


Complete bullshit. That has to be the worse attempt to prove Itachi's sickness that I have yet to see.

Coughing blood is a result of using Susanoo. Susanoo also causes effects when its not being used as Sasuke was still feeling the pain when Susanoo went away. 

Blindness is attributed to his MS usage and to address the headaches that was the result of Tsukuyomi(which also hurt his physical stats as a drawback)

Struggling to walk, I never noticed him struggling to walk before Kirin dropped and Susanoo came out. Not to mention that he had already used a bunch of chakra.


> If you want to try to contend that Kimmimaro's illness was just as negligent to his fighting prowess as Itachi's, then that's your perogative. It just makes no sense to contend that, in my eyes. Furthermore, we've seen Itachi fight outside of his sickened state in his battle with Sasuke. We've seen his performances, so we can adjust appropriately. Even further, most people only think of "Healthy Itachi" as being an Itachi that isn't going to be coughing blood and fall over dead in the battle and has healthy vision. Nothing about that is irrational for Healthy Itachi to have as buffs over his sickened state. Thus, the whole adjusting Kimmimaro's power level due to sickness becomes entirely moot because we just know his illness killed him. We don't know anything else.


He was moving on willpower alone as was stated in the manga. We have multiple instances and multiple people(other than Tobi/Obito who is known to lie and deceive people) with credible knowledge of the situation(Kisame never said Itachi was sick, just warned him of using his eye techniques...) Not to mention that Kimi had to run miles to get to the fight, Itachi was sitting in a chair waiting lounging around.

Itachi was trashed by Kabuto up until Izanami came out. Kimi was shown as an edo to and was great enough to take down a KCM Clone.

Kimmi has more feats of being sick and more credible ones as well.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jan 13, 2015)

I think Sasuke wins, but the fight wouldn't be as easy as some people make it out to be and he certainly wouldn't blitz Kimimaro. 

He's marginally faster, but Kimimaro compensates for that with far superior taijutsu skills — in terms of sheer technique and martial arts prowess I'd put him up there with the top of the manga, and evasive skills just as advanced if not even better than Sasuke's own. Those factors, along with his own kekkei genkai effectively acting as an automatic buffer against close quarters combat, would stop Sasuke from effectively blitzing him. 

Sasuke does, however, have good enough offense to deal with Kimimaro's bone skin. Chidori is good enough to penetrate it; it's just a matter of him not getting eviscerated or impaled seven times over by Kimimaro's bones in the process of his lunge, but his precognition should give him some leeway over that, anyway. Eisō is his best bet, but his opponent's aforementioned evasive skills make that difficult to land. It's a bit unwieldy to use in taijutsu scuffles and openly telegraphs the user's own moves — of which Kimimaro would be very perceptive of anyway, considering how well he saw through Lee's movements. 

The only way I could see Sasuke winning this easily is via Sharingan genjutsu. Kimimaro hasn't displayed any form of resistance against illusions and the only case you could possibly make for him being able to withstand them is the possibility that his body being in constant pain might snap him out of it a la Kurenai biting her lip to break out of her own reversed genjutsu back in Part I. But even then, that's quite tenuous. So yes, if Sasuke used his genjutsu, he could probably suppress him without much of a struggle, if at all. 

In regards to using Kimimaro's feats from his fight with Gaara and Lee, I'm like-minded with ARGUS in thinking those are massively outdated now because of power inflation. It's very obvious from basic portrayal that Kimimaro wasn't just some scrub; he was an extremely skilled shinobi with a wealth of talent and, if Orochimaru and Kaguya are any indication, a very powerful bloodline limit. He might not have had much showing in the War arc, but the fact that he survived long enough against one of Naruto's clones to have been sealed off by Itachi's reversal of edo tensei is enough to convince me he can tango with the likes of Sasuke without getting immediately tossed aside by his speed.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 13, 2015)

Kimi dodged KCM's FRS.  Along with Chiyo.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

Bloo said:


> To Icegaze, the reason why Kimmimaro's illness is massively overlooked whereas Itachi's isn't is because Itachi's sickness was much more visible in the fight. Kimmimaro's illness seemed just as a ticking timebomb. If anything, it was a way for Kishimoto to simply kill him for plot's sake to spare Gaara and Lee. During the fight itself, you see no signs indicating he is sick.
> 
> However, with Itachi you see him coughing up blood, hardly having the ability to see, and struggling to walk. If you want to try to contend that Kimmimaro's illness was just as negligent to his fighting prowess as Itachi's, then that's your perogative. It just makes no sense to contend that, in my eyes. Furthermore, we've seen Itachi fight outside of his sickened state in his battle with Sasuke. We've seen his performances, so we can adjust appropriately. Even further, most people only think of "Healthy Itachi" as being an Itachi that isn't going to be coughing blood and fall over dead in the battle and has healthy vision. Nothing about that is irrational for Healthy Itachi to have as buffs over his sickened state. Thus, the whole adjusting Kimmimaro's power level due to sickness becomes entirely moot because we just know his illness killed him. We don't know anything else.



kimimaro coughed up blood as well 
was stated to be moving solely through he power of his will. If itachi was sick and affected so was kimimaro, the difference is even made more obvious when you see kimimaro unable to slaughter genins 
yet can physically suppress the likes of juugo who can react to V1 Ei. 

its horrendously obvious healthy kimi>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sick kimi

adjusting his power level makes complete sense, he was fighting genin lee and lee got some shots in yet he is dispatching samurai?

when lee at that speed was too slow to beat neji and neji was being blitz by the likes of hayate 

let me guess if this were haku you would also say no need to adjust his speed right. he blitz sai a jounin who blitz deidara yet he failed to blitz KN0 naruto are we to now say KN0 naruto at that point would even be remotely as fast as the likes of sai? 


very simply explain how this weak kimi in your eyes could not through genjutsu but physically troll someone with on panel reactions of reacting to the Ei and all the on panel physical feats he has which vastly i mean vastly outdo anything genin lee was doing


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## Bloo (Jan 14, 2015)

<snip>


Icegaze said:


> kimimaro coughed up blood as well
> was stated to be moving solely through he power of his will. If itachi was sick and affected so was kimimaro, the difference is even made more obvious when you see kimimaro unable to slaughter genins
> yet can physically suppress the likes of juugo who can react to V1 Ei.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying anything trying to pass off Sick Kimmimaro as being equal to Healthy Kimmimaro in strength. I'm simply saying that we saw a much more obvious degradation of performance in Itachi's fight with Sasuke. He was coughing a shit ton of blood, wasn't moving like he normally did, and could barely see. "Healthy Itachi" is just Itachi without those crippling aspects.

Kimmimaro coughed up some blood, yes, and he fell over dead. I'm saying that Healthy Kimmimaro should only be adjusted the same way as Itachi: he doesn't cough up blood and he doesn't fall over dead. I don't see how that isn't fair when that's what most rational people do for Itachi.

Itachi has more feats than Kimmimaro, so the adjustment may appear larger than it actually is. The fact is, Kimmimaro's best performance was of him sick, and that can't be said of Itachi. Thus, you can't adjust Kimmimaro to be higher than what we haven't seen.

You Haku example is unrelated. Kimmimaro didn't have hardly any screen time in the war. He didn't even have a noteworthy feat against an actual named character to my recollection. Can't say that for Haku.

Oh, and taking out fodder Samurai isn't much of a feat...


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

actually i disagree especially with the term much more obvious degradation

 thats obvious bias. 
itachi performance was also affected by MS usage not just his health

kimimaro performance was entirely affected by his health 

some blood haha, he coughed up just as much as itachi. 

healthy itachi is pure fiction with even less basis than healthy kimimaro. Itachi healthy or not would suffer toll on Susanoo, amaterasu and tskuyomi like he did when sick 

Sorry what jutsu would kimimaro suffer some side effects when sick or healthy? 

being able to supress juugo who can react to V1 Ei clearly indicates healthy kimi was a beast 

clearly someone who failed to kill lee in 2 seconds isnt goign to be surpressing juugo.


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## Ghost (Jan 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> itachi performance was also affected by MS usage not just his health


Itachi's MS usage affected his vision. Obito said that Itachi had to pump himself full of medicines so the disease wouldn't kill him before fighting Sasuke.


> kimimaro performance was entirely affected by his health


Except that there is no statement of that sort in the manga. Only a vague one in databook.  


> some blood haha, he coughed up just as much as itachi.


Care to back that up? Because he didn't. 


> healthy itachi is pure fiction with even less basis than healthy kimimaro.


Pure fiction? How fucking ironic. There are actually statements from credible sources (Obito and Zetsu) that the disease made Itachi much weaker. 


> Itachi healthy or not would suffer toll on Susanoo, amaterasu and tskuyomi like he did when sick


Healthy Itachi wouldn't have a dying body. Considering how well Itachi endured the usage of Susano'o, Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu during his fights against Sasuke, he would be able to go much further in battle. 


> Sorry what jutsu would kimimaro suffer some side effects when sick or healthy?


What?



> being able to supress juugo who can react to V1 Ei clearly indicates healthy kimi was a beast


Killing intent =/= raw strength.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Itachi's MS usage affected his vision. Obito said that Itachi had to pump himself full of medicines so the disease wouldn't kill him before fighting Sasuke.
> 
> Except that there is no statement of that sort in the manga. Only a vague one in databook.
> 
> ...



 
and kimi wasnt on some medicine drip under the care of kabuto right 
i guess kishi just drew that for shits and giggles
susanoo affected itachi body as well. notice he started coughing blood only when he used susanoo

and statements from credible sources like orochimaru clearly stated if kimi were healthy none in konoha in part 1 could take him on. He also clearly said if kimimaro were there he wont have lost his arms

but hey lets ignore that and manage to wank itachi. because zetsu said he would have avoided a shiruken if he were healthy. big whoop!! as for obito he never referenced itachi health dont make shit up. he said if he intended to kill sasuke he would have. thats it 

healthy kimi wont have a disease physically fucking him up to the point his heart stops


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## Ghost (Jan 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> and kimi wasnt on some medicine drip under the care of kabuto right


He wasn't during the fight. 

Kimimaro's illness made him a ticking time bomb i.e he could pretty much drop dead at any point. Kabuto's treatment could not cure Kimimaro but give him more time.


> i guess kishi just drew that for shits and giggles


ebin maymay XDDDDDDD


> susanoo affected itachi body as well. notice he started coughing blood only when he used susanoo


Is Itachi using Susano'o here?



> and statements from credible sources like orochimaru clearly stated if kimi were healthy none in konoha in part 1 could take him on.


Except that there were Shinobi such as Kakashi and Guy who would shit stomp Kimi in a fight.


> He also clearly said if kimimaro were there he wont have lost his arms


Orochimaru wouldn't have lost his arms had he not fucked around with Hiruzen.

He was perfectly capable of defeating him without losing his arms.

<snip>



> because zetsu said he would have avoided a shiruken if he were healthy. big whoop!!


Yeah totally. Except that after Itachi died Zetsu said that Itachi should've been much stronger.


> as for obito he never referenced itachi health


<snip>

Obito did say that Itachi was sick.


> dont make shit up.


2ironic4me


> healthy kimi wont have a disease physically fucking him up to the point his heart stops


Healthy Kimimaro doesn't gain stat boosts that puts him multiple tiers above where he actually is. He just won't die randomly in a fight. At best he is a bit faster and stronger.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

So itachi was taking drugs during the fight with sasuke then cuz I sure didn't see it 

That statement alone has disqualified you 
Cba to argue with u

Yes healthy itachi is sooo much stronger because zetsu said so yet orochimaru makes the same statement about kimimaro and directly stacks them up to konoha too contenders 
Kmt

If u are going to be taken seriously then either u admit both are much weaker when sick 
Or sick or healthy they are the same with the same stats 

Cuz both were sick enough to die from it 

Are u now going to make shit up and assume itachi sickness was more leathal ?

Cuz if it wasn't with no evidence of such I don't see why itachi stats would be compromised by his sickness but no Kimi stats 

Learn to think


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## LostSelf (Jan 14, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Healthy Kimimaro doesn't gain stat boosts that puts him multiple tiers above where he actually is. He just won't die randomly in a fight. At best he is a bit faster and stronger.



Are you saying that an agonizing person is just 'a bit weaker' than what they actually are?


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

lol leave him 
Oddly that somehow doesn't apply to itachi
The bias is real here 

If anyone can say sick itachi is weaker than healthy itachi then sick Kimi is weaker than healthy Kimi to the same
Degree 

They both got ninja aids 

Either ignore that they were sick and assume they would perfom the same way or account for
Their sickness and give a stat boost 

Can't do it for one and not the other


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## IchLiebe (Jan 14, 2015)

Bloo said:


> IchLiebe, save yourself time and don't bother responding to me ever when Itachi is involved. I don't concern myself with even reading your asinine posts anymore.


So you are a bullshitter who can't back up his claims and prove another person wrong.

<snip>

YOu can clearly tell that my argument is factual and credible. The only person to my knowledge that said that Itachi was sick was Tobi, whom lies on a whim to get what he wants. While on the other hand for Kimi, we have multiple credible sources. Not to mention we seen him hooked to a medical machine. While Tobi said that Itachi had to take medicine.

<snip>


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## IchLiebe (Jan 14, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> He wasn't during the fight.
> 
> Kimimaro's illness made him a ticking time bomb i.e he could pretty much drop dead at any point. Kabuto's treatment could not cure Kimimaro but give him more time.


Bullshit, lots of people claimed him to be sick. Couldn't cure him because of his body structure which is different from normal people.





> Is Itachi using Susano'o here?


No but he did just use multiple Amaterasu and is clutching his eye with MS active....coincidence? No.


> Orochimaru wouldn't have lost his arms had he not fucked around with Hiruzen.
> 
> He was perfectly capable of defeating him without losing his arms.
> 
> But hey let's ignore logic and wank Kimimaro to the god tier.


But if Orochimaru had a body such as Kimi's instead of an unsuitable body his power would've been multiplied.





> Yeah totally. Except that after Itachi died Zetsu said that Itachi should've been much stronger.


Because of the expectations people had for Itachi. He was supposed to be a great ninja but in reality was barely above jounin.



> Obito did say that Itachi was sick.


Obito who lies to manipulate people and whom was in the process of manipulating Sasuke. Tayuya though had no reason to lie nor would she have any reason to comment on it unless he was in bad shape last time she seen him.





> Healthy Kimimaro doesn't gain stat boosts that puts him multiple tiers above where he actually is. He just won't die randomly in a fight. At best he is a bit faster and stronger.


And what can stop him. Gaara did everything he could and couldn't kill him. Kimi has a magical healing ability and bones that are super strong. Sasuke's best hope is a straight Chidori, but it ends in a draw because Kimi just impales him in the process.


----------



## Bloo (Jan 14, 2015)

IchLiebe, I'm not a bullshitter. I just couldn't give a shit to discuss Itachi with you, or anyone else that argues that Itachi loses to Konohamaru 10/10. If anyone is butthurt here, it's you. Don't respond, I'd rather watch paint dry than share a dead-end conversation with you.


Icegaze said:


> actually i disagree especially with the term much more obvious degradation
> 
> thats obvious bias.
> itachi performance was also affected by MS usage not just his health


Itachi's illness could possibly be attributed to MS usage (albeit I find that an odd source for an illness). However, does that matter if it is or not? Healthy Itachi still remains to be the Itachi that isn't performing as poorly as he did against Sasuke and is performing as he usually did in the manga.



> kimimaro performance was entirely affected by his health
> 
> some blood haha, he coughed up just as much as itachi.


We can't say that because we only saw him fight in a major fight as sick... We have no basis to say that.



> healthy itachi is pure fiction with even less basis than healthy kimimaro. Itachi healthy or not would suffer toll on Susanoo, amaterasu and tskuyomi like he did when sick


Healthy Itachi is not pure fiction. If you actually believe that, then that's the same as saying that Itachi's performance against Sasuke is the same as he performed against any other combatant. If you believe this, let's end this discussion because there's no sense continuing forward. Healthy Itachi is simply just Itachi that isn't blind, isn't going to die randomly, not coughing up blood, and is moving normally. Healthy Itachi exists because those conditions of his health were only noticeable in one fight, when he had others where he performed better. The said can't be said about Kimmimaro since he had one fight.

I'm sorry. I don't see how my argument is illogical in any way. I'm not saying Healthy Itachi is some god that we've never seen...



> Sorry what jutsu would kimimaro suffer some side effects when sick or healthy?
> 
> being able to supress juugo who can react to V1 Ei clearly indicates healthy kimi was a beast


Sasuke was able to easily brush off and suppress Juugo with no difficulty in one panel. It is no indication of Kimmimaro's strength and that's so indirect that you can't use it objectively.



> clearly someone who failed to kill lee in 2 seconds isnt goign to be surpressing juugo.


What?

I'm sorry, but there's next to no evidence of Kimmimaro's "Healthy" performance being much better when his only fight was when he was about to die. You claim Itachi's "Healthy" form as being nonexistent when there's a lot more evidence, hype, and panels to back that up (even though I'm not contending Healthy Itachi as being anything more than Itachi with good vision, not coughing up blood, and normal movement).


----------



## tupadre97 (Jan 14, 2015)

If it was sick Kimimaro Sasuke could just hold out until he died. The only way he beats healthy kimimaro is with Kirin. Otherwise he gets overwhelmed by constant bone bullets, bone forests, and a superior CS2 form. Seriously he has no anwser to the bone forest or kimimaro's durability and will just run out of charkra and get taken. Kimimaro has way to much stamina for Sasuke, only Kirin could save him.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2015)

Bloo said:


> IchLiebe, I'm not a bullshitter. I just couldn't give a shit to discuss Itachi with you, or anyone else that argues that Itachi loses to Konohamaru 10/10. If anyone is butthurt here, it's you. Don't respond, I'd rather watch paint dry than share a dead-end conversation with you.
> 
> Itachi's illness could possibly be attributed to MS usage (albeit I find that an odd source for an illness). However, does that matter if it is or not? Healthy Itachi still remains to be the Itachi that isn't performing as poorly as he did against Sasuke and is performing as he usually did in the manga.
> 
> ...



so we have no basis to say healthy kimi would be stronger than sick kimi but healthy itachi would be stronger than sick itachi and what basis do you have appart from silly bias

if itachi sick is a 5/10 and healthy puts him at 6/10 then kimi would be boosted to the same degree more so when you actually remember that a sickness affecting the body would obviously affect his ability to use taijutsu since he himself isnt in top tier condition. 

itachi sickness would not impact his ablity to use genjutsu to the same degree unless you want to start makign shit up and claiming healhty itahci would have stronger genjutsu. Itachi amaterasu would not be affected. his ninjutus would not either because it isnt like the sickness was draining him of chakra. 


people go on about how recovering lee was slower and weaker when he fought kimi, and thats just after a few broken bones. kimi sickness was bad enough to flat out kill him 

i swear i dont get the illogical bias 

when you say healthy itachi is itachi moving normally define his normal movement. kimi movement would be improved to whatever fictional degree you think itachi movement would be improved by 

show me scans of alot more evidence impacting itachi performance. i would show you just as many panels clearly stating kimi was basically a walking corpse 

go on for every panel ill provide mine and expose your bias 

*
no one at all saw itachi walking around and asking him how on earth is he able to even walk. 

tayuya was wondering how kimi got out of bed. *

but hey suuuuuuuuuuuuuure itachi was alot sicker and kimi just had a cold 



lastly to even assume or imply kimi fought lee seriously is a joke. he watched lee sleep, let him take his meds and never attacked him. he only played on the counter attack but yh sure itachi went easy on sasuke but kimi went all out against lee


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## IchLiebe (Jan 16, 2015)

Bloo said:


> Itachi's illness could possibly be attributed to MS usage (albeit I find that an odd source for an illness). However, does that matter if it is or not? Healthy Itachi still remains to be the Itachi that isn't performing as poorly as he did against Sasuke and is performing as he usually did in the manga.


Yes because him using his power has that much of a drawback. He actively spammed it at times which one shouldn't do. Kisame even warned him not to use so many times in one day. Why would Kisame say that, because he notices how much using it just once effects his abilities. He performed pretty good against Sasuke, whom didn't land a hit until after he broke Tsukuyomi which has its drawbacks and which Itachi obviously felt. 


> We can't say that because we only saw him fight in a major fight as sick... We have no basis to say that.


 Yes after which he got off his deathbed and had multiple people exclaim surprise that he was actually fighting or going to fight. Tobi never not one time told Sasuke that Itachi was deathly sick and couldn't move for days at a time(and thats being nice, we have no idea how long Kimi has been hooked to the machine).  





> Healthy Itachi is not pure fiction. If you actually believe that, then that's the same as saying that Itachi's performance against Sasuke is the same as he performed against any other combatant. If you believe this, let's end this discussion because there's no sense continuing forward. Healthy Itachi is simply just Itachi that isn't blind, isn't going to die randomly, not coughing up blood, and is moving normally. Healthy Itachi exists because those conditions of his health were only noticeable in one fight, when he had others where he performed better. The said can't be said about Kimmimaro since he had one fight.
> 
> 
> > I agree we seen healthy Itachi in P1. In part 2 he had obviously done started to feel the effects of spamming MS.
> ...


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2015)

in short kimi would be more impacted by a physical illness than itachi because kimi uses taijutsu more and soley relies on it 
itachi sickness did not affect his jutsu in any way or his ability to use them 

kimi weakned body would affect, cursed seal and every other taijutsu ability he used

its quite obvious that healthy kimi is easily stronger than what he showed


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## Icegaze (Apr 19, 2015)

Sasuke high diff or kimi high diff 50/50
he uses genjutsu to create an opening and then chidori straight through the chest. 

at the very least it does the same amount of damage against Ei in which case sasuke dies 
at most it runs through him 

not to sure


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## Skywalker (Apr 19, 2015)

RedChidori said:


> Necro ?


Bumping a months old thread.


----------



## RedChidori (Apr 19, 2015)

Skywalker said:


> Bumping a months old thread.



My threads are everlasting .


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## Hazuki (Apr 19, 2015)

sasuke win very easely , it's not even funny 

sick kimi had trouble against kid garaa and died because of his sickness

there were no sign of sickness until the end 

a healh kimi migh be stronger but not bu far he was just around garaa kid level 

and garaa kid is 50 times slower and stronger than any high jounin like kakashi or sasuke  beginnin part 2 who was much stronger than garaa kazekage in my opinion 

people really need to understand that kimi  had lots of trouble against garaa kid so imagine garaa kaze kage who is himself much weaker than deidara/sasuke

kimimaro is really overstimate , while all he did was to put a good fight and almost won ( if he wasn't sick) against a little poor garaa KID


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 19, 2015)

Hazuki said:


> sasuke win very easely , it's not even funny


Not easily. Sasuke and Kimimaro are around the same level at that point of the game.


> sick kimi had trouble against kid garaa and died because of his sickness
> 
> there were no sign of sickness until the end


Kimimaro was overwhelming Gaara (who by that point was being groomed for Kazekage) left and right and countering attacks that turned forests into deserts. And no sign of sickness till the end? Are you fucking ignoring how Kimimaro was introduced?

Hooked up to life support, explicitly shown to be dying, not shown very long to live, even talking or breathing speeds death up.

Kimimaro was literally on his death bed.


> a healh kimi migh be stronger but not bu far he was just around garaa kid level


A healthy Kimimaro, given the state he was in (wasn't even a 10% of his full power), yet he beat both Gaara and Lee despite their efforts only failing to kill them when he died. At full power? He was Kage level from all the hype he got.


> and garaa kid is 50 times slower and stronger than any high jounin like kakashi or sasuke  beginnin part 2 who was much stronger than garaa kazekage in my opinion


Gaara was creating deserts and everything then. He was being groomed to be Kazekage. You're downplaying and ignoring the state Kimimaro was even in.


> people really need to understand that kimi  had lots of trouble against garaa kid so imagine garaa kaze kage who is himself much weaker than deidara/sasuke


Stop downplaying. Gaara was shown to have gotten stronger and his fighting style countered Kimimaro's. But Kimimaro still WON in the end. 


> kimimaro is really overstimate , while all he did was to put a good fight and almost won ( if he wasn't sick) against a little poor garaa KID


Its not even overestimating. Kimimaro was literally on his death bed, yet he beat both Gaara (who by that point was being groomed to be Kazekage) and Lee with MINIMUM difficulty. You couldn't even remember the state Kimimaro was introduced at if you claimed 'Kimimaro only shown he was sick at the end!'


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## Hazuki (Apr 20, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Not easily. Sasuke and Kimimaro are around the same level at that point of the game.



no at all 
there is no proof that kimi was around sasuke part 2 level if he himself had lots of trouble against garaa kid , it doesn't matter if he was sick of not 

a healer kimi would have won against garaa , but he would have still had some trouble



> Kimimaro was overwhelming Gaara (who by that point was being groomed for Kazekage) left and right and countering attacks that turned forests into deserts. And no sign of sickness till the end? Are you fucking ignoring how Kimimaro was introduced?
> 
> 
> 
> Kimimaro was literally on his death bed.



it was before he fough garaa...
you show yourself the scan 

kimimaro on that bed isn't the same who fough garaa , 
kabuto did something to him for his body to fight 
kimimaro wasn't on his death bed when he fough garaa , understand ??



> A healthy Kimimaro, given the state he was in (*wasn't even a 10% of his full power*), yet he beat both Gaara and Lee despite their efforts only failing to kill them when he died. At full power? He was Kage level from all the hype he got.



haha you are funny ^^

and you dare talking about bad argument ? just look at yours ^^ 
you don't read naruto actually , you must read an other manga 
you invent what you want , how can you be credible ? ^^ 





> Gaara was creating deserts and everything then. He was being groomed to be Kazekage. You're downplaying and ignoring the state Kimimaro was even in.



it doesn't matter if garaa use or creat desert , he was still much much much weaker than garaa kazekage ! got it ?
and sasuke part 2 was better than garaa kazekage




> Stop downplaying. Gaara was shown to have gotten stronger and his fighting style countered Kimimaro's. But Kimimaro still WON in the end.



sick kimimaro lost the fight , because garaa was strong enough to put him using his most powerful jutsu and his body sick couldn't handlee it long time enough 

that's all 



> it's not even overestimating. Kimimaro was literally on his death bed, yet he beat both Gaara (who by that point was being groomed to be Kazekage) and Lee with MINIMUM difficulty. You couldn't even remember the state Kimimaro was introduced at if you claimed 'Kimimaro only shown he was sick at the end!'



the fact that you MUST understand ( instead of talking without argument and invent what you want like those 10% of power that kimi used )  is that kimimaro sick fough kid garaa who was himself totally weak in front of most of ninja of the part 2 

and kimimaro sick lost against garaa , because his body  couldn't figh too long 

there are no proof that kimi use 10% of his power , no proof that he was kage level 

all we know is that he lost against garaa , because he was sick 

a healty kimi would have won against garaa , but not by far , and garaa was just a little kid at that time


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 20, 2015)

lol poster above
kabuto did nothing to kimimaro 
kishi re emphasized that point by tayuya reaction to seeing him 

a physical illness would obviously greatly affect someone who solely uses physical attacks 

rock lee after tsunade healed him from the gaara fight, was stated to be slower and weaker 

and this is a healed person after broken bones. 

kimimaro illness ultimately killed him mid swing but somehow u think he wasnt sick till the end, despite the first time we ever see him he is lying on a death bed with drips and what not

wasnt his illness the reason orochimaru could not take his body 

a healthy kimi would have baby shaked genin gaara 

when u think about it a KCM naruto clone appeared and kimi wasnt sealed. 

now even a kCM clone>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everyone kimi fought in part 1 X1000
yet kimi wasnt off panelled or 1 panelled. if he was as weak as u indicate. he would have been sealed ASAP

*Also healthy kimi in base destroyed the sound 4. now unless u think genin gaara+ weakened lee are far above the sound 4. that at least implies how crippled 
kimi sickness made him
Then we got the obvious statements from orochimaru pretty much saying kimimaro was above kabuto who was compared to kakashi 
We also got the fact by part 2 even the likes of haku who genin sasuke were reacting to could blitz said who will off panel genin sasuke. 
Haku and kimi were brought back clearly because they werent as weak as shown if they were they would be sealed so quickly, can u imagine speed genin can react to fighting in the war? fodder samurai would be gods by comparison to haku. *


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## Deer Lord (Apr 20, 2015)

^
There are plenty of characters that recieve much more wank than kimi.

Anyhow, sick kimi was jonin level
I'd say from war-arc preformances that a healthy kimi would probably be elite-jonin tier
much like sauce pre-oro absorption.

thing is, sauce is more versitile, so I'll give him the edge. although prime kimimaro would give him high-difficulty.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 20, 2015)

BoPII Sasuke was Low Kage. There isn't much difference between that Sauce & the one that was with Hebi. 

Elite Jonin is like, Asuma and Zabuza. Oh, Yamato would also go there, and Sasuke put him on his ass in one move.


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## Deer Lord (Apr 20, 2015)

That depends on how you define each tier I guess.
I personally like to split elite jounin into three tiers.

yamato would be on the lower one, sauce would be on the higher one (which is essentially borderline kage)


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 20, 2015)

Hazuki said:


> no at all
> there is no proof that kimi was around sasuke part 2 level if he himself had lots of trouble against garaa kid , it doesn't matter if he was sick of not
> 
> a healer kimi would have won against garaa , but he would have still had some trouble


A healthy Kimimaro would have curbstomped Gaara. A healthy Kimimaro is the perfect vessel for Orochimaru, just like Sasuke was three years in the future. And yes, it does matter if Kimimaro was sick or not, it hampered his ability and lowered his power. 




> it was before he fough garaa...
> you show yourself the scan
> 
> kimimaro on that bed isn't the same who fough garaa ,
> ...


Except he was. Kabuto explicitly said every step, every breath Kimimaro took was just one more step to death. The only thing holding Kimimaro together was his willpower. And Kabuto couldn't do anything-there's a reason why Kimimaro was dying, due to his unique body structure there were no medical records to compare to. Sorry, evidence shows you are wrong, stop downplaying and ignoring the state a character is in.




> haha you are funny ^^
> 
> and you dare talking about bad argument ? just look at yours ^^
> you don't read naruto actually , you must read an other manga
> you invent what you want , how can you be credible ? ^^


I've read every manga page. I've sourced it. You're not providing an argument at all. It kind of sounds like you're just trolling.






> it doesn't matter if garaa use or creat desert , he was still much much much weaker than garaa kazekage ! got it ?
> and sasuke part 2 was better than garaa kazekage


Sasuke in Part II wasn't better than Gaara as the Kazekage until Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. Remember when they fought in the Kage Summit, Sasuke could barely do anything against Gaara who was blocking his attacks like no tomorrow, even Amaterasu.

End of Part I Gaara was creating deserts and putting Kimimaro under 200 meters of sand to crush him from the weight and pressure. Kimimaro even sick tanked that.



> sick kimimaro lost the fight , because garaa was strong enough to put him using his most powerful jutsu and his body sick couldn't handlee it long time enough
> 
> that's al


l 
Gaara and Rock Lee disagree with you. Kimimaro won, his body just gave out before he could finish off his opponents. 




> the fact that you MUST understand ( instead of talking without argument and invent what you want like those 10% of power that kimi used )  is that kimimaro sick fough kid garaa who was himself totally weak in front of most of ninja of the part 2


End of Part I Gaara showed he was solidly Jonin level in ability due to all the high powered jutsus he used. And yes, Kimimaro while sick and on his death bed (manga shows it, you ignore it due to your bias) was operating at 10% of his usual ability given what we heard of how strong he usually is (at full power, he beat the entire Sound 4, all Chunin/Special Jonin level shinobi without a scratch). 


> and kimimaro sick lost against garaa , because his body  couldn't figh too long


Gaara said he won the fight. His body just gave out from his illness.


> there are no proof that kimi use 10% of his power , no proof that he was kage level


Kimimaro was using just 10% of his power. He wasn't operating at any level he would normally have. And no proof he wasn't Kage level? Excuse me, wasn't it said that Kimimaro killed Rasa, Gaara's dad, the Fourth Kazekage? Oh yes, it was said.


> all we know is that he lost against garaa , because he was sick


Gaara. Said. He. WON. Kimimaro beat them. They were powerless. They were only saved since Kimimaro's death bed body gave out.


> a healty kimi would have won against garaa , but not by far , and garaa was just a little kid at that time


A healthy Kimimaro would have curbstomped Gaara. And Gaara at the end of Part I was operating on Jonin level, so why are you degrading his feats?


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## Bonly (Apr 20, 2015)

I'd slightly favor Sasuke to win many due to being a bit more versatile and with genjutsu he could use it to help land some fatal hits though it could go either way imo


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## Icegaze (Apr 20, 2015)

Very fair assessment Bonly 
genjutsu will be taking the win more likely than not 

though sasuke unlike itachi doesnt quickly resort to it. also his skill with it is shabby by comparison 

note the genjutsu would have to be convincing enough to fool kimimaro 

so far sasuke genjutsu are very obvious. the best one he used was against deidara, now faking his death should work very well 

if he tries some lame as stakes or somethign, it would be broken. considering danzo with neg difficulty broke through sasuke MS genjutsu and even said it was incredibly weak compared to itachi's


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 20, 2015)

Sasuke lolgenjutsu'ing Kimimaro allows him to easily take this as Kimimaro's chakra flow will be disrupted, allowing him to easily land a fatal blow as Kimimaro will be rendered unable to use his Kekkai Genkai.

 However, Kimimaro is fairly skilled and Sasuke is generally unable to land genjutsu on speedsters proficient in Taijutsu (which Kimi certainly is). The only way Sasuke managed to land a genjutsu on Bee was due to his linear movements while fighting in V1 Mode. Kimimaro doesn't have that limitation making it seem unlikely that Kimimaro would be fodderized by genjutsu as he will be completely mobile the entire time (unless for some odd reason he isn't).

 Honestly though, the main thing that sets them apart is that CS2 Sasuke isn't hindered at all while CS2 Kimimaro is. His lack of speed hurts him even further as CS2 Sasuke can fly, effectively evading all of Kimimaro's techniques, even his strongest one.

 So overall,  Pre-Hebi Sasuke should be the clear victor.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 20, 2015)

I've always thought Kimimaro could go, "RAR!" and will power out of any genjutsu he knows is a genjutsu.  But that's only because I feel like if you can will power out of death and end stage disease crippling, you should rightfully be able to will power out of genjutsu, because it seems fair.  I'm not sure what the manga's position on that is.


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## Alkaid (Apr 20, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Honestly though, the main thing that sets them apart is that CS2 Sasuke isn't hindered at all while CS2 Kimimaro is.



The only thing hindered in Kimimaro's CS2 is speed, but he gains access to an absolutely devastating mass aoe attack and ridiculous defensive and offensive power.



NarutoX28 said:


> His lack of speed hurts him even further as CS2 Sasuke can fly, effectively evading all of Kimimaro's techniques, even his strongest one.



Kimimaro has an answer to Sasuke's flight in the form of bone projectiles for Sasuke's very big wings. There isn't even a point in Sasuke flying because he has no jutsu strong or fast enough to hit kimimaro from a distance his bone projectiles cannot reach.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 20, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> The only thing hindered in Kimimaro's CS2 is speed, but he gains access to an absolutely devastating mass aoe attack and ridiculous defensive and offensive power.



 Mass AoE that can't even hit CS2 Sasuke while he's in the air.





> Kimimaro has an answer to Sasuke's flight in the form of bone projectiles for Sasuke's very big wings. There isn't even a point in Sasuke flying because he has no jutsu strong or fast enough to hit kimimaro from a distance his bone projectiles cannot reach.



 Sasuke's very big wings allowed him to evade this point-blank and he did that in conjunction with actually activating his Cursed Seal:

 thing

 Exaggerating how big Sasuke's wings are isn't going to help you argument. Those same wings taned C2 and you're honestly telling me his puny bone projectiles are doing something here? There's also something called Chidori Katana which allows him to effectively parry his bone projectiles.

 In addition to this, Kimimaro's bones, while dense, aren't enough to withstand Sasuke's Katon if he chooses to scorch Kimimaro for extended periods of time or blast him away with a simple Kirin. Either way, all Kimimaro's speed is hindered while Sasuke's speed is increased allowing Sasuke to comfortably attack Kimimaro mid-range with Chidori Variants if he sees fit.

 I don't see how Kimimaro can even land a blow on Sasuke. Even instantly using his AoE isn't enough to strike Sasuke down as shown with the feat I posted above.


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

scorch kimi with lol katon 


katon got no feats of doing any of that. 

sasuke better use chidori with just katon he will be a victimized 

when katon hit sasuke cs2 wing directly and he even said this level of attack isnt enough to slow me down 

but u somehow think lol katon will slow kimi who is far far more durable than lol cs2 wing


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## Ghost (Apr 21, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> ^
> There are plenty of characters that recieve much more wank than kimi.



 Lol no.                .


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## Ghost (Apr 21, 2015)

I agree that Guy is overrated as well but not as much as Kimimaro.


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## TheGreen1 (Apr 21, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> I agree that Guy is overrated as well but not as much as Kimimaro.



Kimimaro was this close to killing Gaara and Lee. Those in Part 1, were two of the strongest ninja known at genin rank, but admittedly that means jack shit. I mean, Gaara was so close to death's door that it's not even funny.

If Kimimaro is healthy and wants to kill Sasuke, I think Sasuke dies at this point. Kimimaro is better at Taijutsu, and he's a tricky sonovabitch. And I don't think Chidori is going to cut it here as those bones are stronger than steel.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 21, 2015)

Kimimaro - stopped by Part 1 weakened Lee from pursuing Naruto. Struggles against kid Gaara who didn't use Shukaku. 
P2 Sasuke - casually floors P2 Naruto, Sai and Yamato. Gets compared to KN3/KN4. Forces Naruto to train up to Kakashi's level to compete. 

Never understood Kimi-wank. Look at his place in the story and his opponents. A challenge for P1 Lee and P1 Gaara. People multiple tiers below P2 Sasuke.

As for Healthy Kimi being several tiers stronger:
From his DB entry



> Picture 3: His body is expected to be on the verge of death, but he moves around lightly. The thoughts of putting his life on the line for the mission gives him power...!


Classic shonen willpower. Healthy Kimi = more stamina + won't die from exhastion.


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## Ghost (Apr 21, 2015)

TheGreen1 said:


> Kimimaro was this close to killing Gaara and Lee. Those in Part 1, were two of the strongest ninja known.


<snip>


> I mean, Gaara was so close to death's door that it's not even funny.


You do realize that any proper Jounin would rape stomp part 1 Gaara?


> If Kimimaro is healthy and wants to kill Sasuke, I think Sasuke dies at this point.


Post skip Sasuke's feats are tiers above Kimimaro's.


> Kimimaro is better at Taijutsu, and he's a tricky sonovabitch.


Being better at Taijutsu doesn't help when tour opponent is tiers faster than you and has Sharingan precog.



> And I don't think Chidori is going to cut it here as those bones are stronger than steel.


lol


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

saikyou i think u got a thing against kimi

kishi on panel had orochimaru say no one in konoha at the time of part 1. could stop kimi 

this includes kakashi and base gai most likely 

kabuto also admitted inferiority to kimimaro. while orochimaru said kakashi and part 1 kabuto were pretty much equal 

not saying he wins but when people consider a sick version of him elite jounin 
low kage level when healthy  its hardly a stretch 

also kimi>>jugo. jugo who is reacting to Ei who is faster than pre hebi sasuke. 

call it retcon or what not but in part 1. kimi apparently was hindered by his transformation. by part 2 jugo mentioned kimi could partially transform which shows perfect control of cs2


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## RBL (Apr 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> itachi wank anyone
> oh worse is the guy wank
> for a while he was wanked so much people started claiming he can use hirudora in base
> despite it being a 7th gate technique
> ...



you are wrong dude, gate is actually underrated, tell me someone but jad, the kakashi dude and me, who actually defends gai?

base gai and seven gated gai is underrated as shit.

posters would always say gai needs to sacrifice himself to actually have a chance, or that gai is a retard and has no strategy and all he knows is punch-kick-punch-kick.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> scorch kimi with lol katon
> 
> 
> katon got no feats of doing any of that.
> ...



 Katon generally does scorch it's opponents and while Kimimaro can provide decent resistance, being exposed to a Katon for extended periods of time will burn his skin. I will admit, Sasuke's CS2 Wing did tank * Sick * Itachi's Katon, though considering Sasuke's Katon will be Senjutsu enhanced and we've seen the potential of his Katon with CS2, it's fair to say that Kimimaro has the chance of being scorched if exposed for * extended periods of time * which shouldn't be hard as the speed gap between CS2 Sasuke and CS2 Kimimaro should be pretty big and the fact that SM Naruto of all people got burnt by Madara's Lolweakestshit Katon, so it is certainly possible that Kimi's skin can be scorched.

 You're acting like I suddenly claimed Kimimaro would die from a Katon after being exposed to it after a second when I never claimed such a thing.


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Katon generally does scorch it's opponents and while Kimimaro can provide decent resistance, being exposed to a Katon for extended periods of time will burn his skin. I will admit, Sasuke's CS2 Wing did tank * Sick * Itachi's Katon, though considering Sasuke's Katon will be Senjutsu enhanced and we've seen the potential of his Katon with CS2, it's fair to say that Kimimaro has the chance of being scorched if exposed for * extended periods of time * which shouldn't be hard as the speed gap between CS2 Sasuke and CS2 Kimimaro should be pretty big and the fact that SM Naruto of all people got burnt by Madara's Lolweakestshit Katon, so it is certainly possible that Kimi's skin can be scorched.
> 
> You're acting like I suddenly claimed Kimimaro would die from a Katon after being exposed to it after a second when I never claimed such a thing.



said senjutsu enhanced katon from sasuke barely managed to over power itachi katon which just about gave sasuke wing a little lol burn 

katon is pointless to mention it only serves as a waste of chakra 

kimi body is more durable than Sm naruto and madara katon>>>>>>>>>>>sasuke katon 

i am simply saying drop the katon subject. its a pointless waste of time in this match up thats all 

@other poster yh gai is underrated. he can destroy even kishi 


when people start claiming he can use a 7th gate tech in base thats called fan wank


----------



## Ghost (Apr 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> saikyou i think u got a thing against kimi


I have nothing against him. I like him a lot and he is in my top 10 faves. 


> kishi on panel had orochimaru say no one in konoha at the time of part 1. could stop kimi


Doesn't mean anything. Orochimaru hasn't been in the village for years. Statements hardly mean anything if actual feats contradict them. 


> this includes kakashi and base gai most likely


And both of them would require no more than 5 seconds to put down Kimimaro. 


> kabuto also admitted inferiority to kimimaro.


Kabuto is not that strong in direct 1 vs 1 without prep. End of part 1 Sasuke, Naruto and Gaara would all beat him.


> while orochimaru said kakashi and part 1 kabuto were pretty much equal


Orochimaru has no idea how strong Kakashi is and Kabuto's feats way inferior to Kakashi's. 


> not saying he wins but when people consider a sick version of him elite jounin


Elite Jounin don't struggle with two (granted strong) Chuunin level opponens especially when one of them is still recovering from a surgery. 


> low kage level when healthy  its hardly a stretch


How can he be Kage level when he can't beat a single character who would fall in that strength bracket? 


> also kimi>>jugo. jugo who is reacting to Ei who is faster than pre hebi sasuke.


Give me a panel where it says Kimimaro was stronger than Juugo. All I remember is that Kimimaro was the only one who could calm down Juugo. Probably with killing intent just like Sasuke did. Also all of Juugo's offense is blunt damage, qutie easy for Kimimaro's Kekkei Genkai to counter.  


> call it retcon or what not but in part 1. kimi apparently was hindered by his transformation. by part 2 jugo mentioned kimi could partially transform which shows perfect control of cs2



It was stated that Kimi's *second* stage of CS makes him slower but stronger, yes. What does this have to do with anything?


----------



## Deer Lord (Apr 21, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Lol no.                .


Itachi
Kamui Kakashi
Gai
Hebi Sauce

are all wanked on a daily basis here.
there are also individual posters and their characters of choice, but lets not go into that...

This is actually the first thread where I see people claming kimi wank.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> I have nothing against him. I like him a lot and he is in my top 10 faves.
> 
> Doesn't mean anything. Orochimaru hasn't been in the village for years. Statements hardly mean anything if actual feats contradict them.



so to u sick= healthy ok 


> And both of them would require no more than 5 seconds to put down Kimimaro.



kishi disagrees but sure



> Kabuto is not that strong in direct 1 vs 1 without prep. End of part 1 Sasuke, Naruto and Gaara would all beat him.



kishi disagrees but ok. why not 



> Orochimaru has no idea how strong Kakashi is and Kabuto's feats way inferior to Kakashi's.



odd he had no idea yet was sure he could kill kakashi. and kakashi was sure orochimaru could kill him. considering orochimaru blood lust was more than enough to discourage part 1 kakashi. who thought even attempting to go up against oro was madness. but sure lets claim oro had no idea. when kakashi agreed 



> Elite Jounin don't struggle with two (granted strong) Chuunin level opponens especially when one of them is still recovering from a surgery.



if they are sick sure why not. gaara chunin level. yet was considered a war deterrent. loooolz...sure why not. the guy who was up for kage title was a chunin level shinobi. when sasuke who could barely use chidori twice was chunin level



> How can he be Kage level when he can't beat a single character who would fall in that strength bracket?



he cant beat any but he wont be trolled either. the weakest are rasa and Mei i see no reason why either would bully him. when bone forest would be a nightmare for Mei. and crushign kimi a nightmare for rasa 



> Give me a panel where it says Kimimaro was stronger than Juugo. All I remember is that Kimimaro was the only one who could calm down Juugo. Probably with killing intent just like Sasuke did. Also all of Juugo's offense is blunt damage, qutie easy for Kimimaro's Kekkei Genkai to counter.



claiming down a rampaging jugo. i guess u think he sweet talked him. sure  
they said he was the only one who could calm down jugo and remain undamaged. 

if kimimaro killing intent enough to discourage someone of jugo level dont u think that obviously implies kimi was never slightly serious and very ill against gaara and rock lee. cuz lord knows jugo utterly shits on both



> It was stated that Kimi's *second* stage of CS makes him slower but stronger, yes. What does this have to do with anything?



Cs2 wont hinder his speed if he can perfectly control it. why would it? the fact that his speed is affected means he isnt in full control. by part 2 he was stated 2 b


----------



## Deer Lord (Apr 21, 2015)

Kage level kimi is streaching it
rasa and mei would destroy kimi, esp. mei with lava and acid.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Kage level kimi is streaching it
> rasa and mei would destroy kimi, esp. mei with lava and acid.



even low kage level?
i mean kimi shits on asuma and asuma is elite jounin 
there is no level in between 

also Mei got zero defense against bone forest something that would come up the second kimi sees lava

from what rasa showed he doesnt have anything to indicate he can crush kimi casually 

am just saying the fact that they dont swat him like a fly sort of puts him in that tier even if he is to be the weakest of that tier 

also i see him on a similar level to hiashi who is low kage level

despite not being able to clearly beat Mei 

however both kimi and hiashi have a shot at defeating Mei

while they cant take her jutsu, she cant dodge theirs either


----------



## Deer Lord (Apr 21, 2015)

there kinda is

people have been broadening the low-kage tier by quite a bit.
if you want to put something in between then:
Low-Kage>Borderline Kage>Elite Jounin> Jounin

If we are placing mei as the absolute bottom of low kage
then healthy kimi would be in elite jonin, sick kimi would be in jonin
asuma also elite jonin, albeit below the likes of healthy kimi and P1 kakashi.


----------



## Ghost (Apr 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so to u sick= healthy ok


For the millionth time the sickness didn't affect Kimimaro's strength as much as you did. Look at AP's post on the previous page. 



> kishi disagrees but sure


I don't see him in this thread. Concession accepted. *Lee gave Kimimaro trouble with his speed while not even being at his best*. Do I really have to tell you that both Kakashi and Guy are much faster than Lee? They both speed blitz Kimimaro. Kakashi one shots with Raikri and Guy kills him with a couple of serious kicks to the head. 



> kishi disagrees but ok. why not


As you can't come up with anything. All of them have feats to beat Kabuto.  




> odd he had no idea yet was sure he could kill kakashi. and kakashi was sure orochimaru could kill him.


Part 1 Konohamaru could kill Kakashi, would it be likely to happen though? No. Fact is that Orochimaru hasn't been in the village for years and doesn't know the pinnacle of Kakashi's strength.

Hiruzen is the strongest Kage, amirite?


> considering orochimaru blood lust was more than enough to discourage part 1 kakashi. who thought even attempting to go up against oro was madness. but sure lets claim oro had no idea. when kakashi agreed


I really don't know how Orochimaru vs Kakashi is relevant in Kabuto vs Kakashi discussion but whatever. Orochimaru intimidating Kakashi was only a hype service for the Sannin. Doesn't mean anything considering couple months later Kakashi had no trouble engaging Itachi, a much stronger foe. 




> if they are sick sure why not. gaara chunin level. yet was considered a war deterrent.


Shukaku was the war tool. Gaara was nothing but a host. Gaara without Shukaku was beaten by Sasuke who was said to be Chuunin level. 



> loooolz...


<snip>


> sure why not. the guy who was up for kage title was a chunin level shinobi.


Care to give me a panel where it says part 1 Gaara could be considered a Kage?


> when sasuke who could barely use chidori twice was chunin level


What the fuck are you on about?




> he cant beat any but he wont be trolled either.


Stop using the word troll when it makes no sense.


> the weakest are rasa and Mei i see no reason why either would bully him. when bone forest would be a nightmare for Mei. and crushign kimi a nightmare for rasa


If part 1 Gaara was able to react to the bone forest then so can Mei and Rasa.

If my memory serves me right then it was said that Rasa stopped Shukaku with his sand. Are you saying Kimimaro is more powerful than a Bijuu? 

Mei sets up acid mist and Kimi can't do anything but melt considering how fast ribcage Susano'o was melting.   


> claiming down a rampaging jugo. i guess u think he sweet talked him. sure


No I don't think so and never said anything like that. <snip>

they said he was the only one who could calm down jugo and remain undamaged.[/quote]Yeah, I'm aware.  


> if kimimaro killing intent enough to discourage someone of jugo level dont u think that obviously implies kimi was never slightly serious and very ill against gaara and rock lee. cuz lord knows jugo utterly shits on both


What?






> Cs2 wont hinder his speed if he can perfectly control it.


You're talking out of your ass.


> why would it?


His size and weight grow a lot?


> the fact that his speed is affected means he isnt in full control.


No it doesn't. <snip>


----------



## Nikushimi (Apr 21, 2015)

Sasuke stomps with Genjutsu and Raiton, which can bypass/override Kimimaro's skeletal hardness.

Massive overkill if Kirin can be prepped.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> For the millionth time the sickness didn't affect Kimimaro's strength as much as you did. Look at AP's post on the previous page.



 so a physical sickness that has him die mid swing wont affect someone who solely uses taijutsu? despite the fact that lee was blantantly stated to be slower and weaker due to broken bones which were healed by tsunade. 
but somehow u feel kimimaro was close to what he showed.  



> I don't see him in this thread. Concession accepted. *Lee gave Kimimaro trouble with his speed while not even being at his best*. Do I really have to tell you that both Kakashi and Guy are much faster than Lee? They both speed blitz Kimimaro. Kakashi one shots with Raikri and Guy kills him with a couple of serious kicks to the head.


kimi wasnt at his best nor did he take lee. seriously. 
they can be faster. wont help gai punch through kimi bones though.  <snip>



> As you can't come up with anything. All of them have feats to beat Kabuto.


i can come up with the author statements in the manga 



> Part 1 Konohamaru could kill Kakashi, would it be likely to happen though? No. Fact is that Orochimaru hasn't been in the village for years and doesn't know the pinnacle of Kakashi's strength.


 yh imma post with a better poster. u my friend are weak



> Hiruzen is the strongest Kage, amirite?


why not. while he was alive kishi said he was the strongest kage. so that puts him above Ei, onoki, Mei, and rasa. Considering hiruzen knew details of jinton. i dont see why its impossible for him to have fought onoki. but again troll why dont u



> I really don't know how Orochimaru vs Kakashi is relevant in Kabuto vs Kakashi discussion but whatever. Orochimaru intimidating Kakashi was only a hype service for the Sannin. Doesn't mean anything considering couple months later Kakashi had no trouble engaging Itachi, a much stronger foe.


oro said kabuto cant kill him. and compared kakashi to kabuto. kakashi shat himself at oro killer intent. . engaging itachi lol he was lagging behind and said itachi hasnt shown anything yet. 
btw once he got serious kakashi was out for a week




> Shukaku was the war tool. Gaara was nothing but a host. Gaara without Shukaku was beaten by Sasuke who was said to be Chuunin level.


the host who could transform into shukaku and use possum technique. yh chunin level
genma !! in the manga that kishi wrote. said sasuke was at chunin level very specifically. so suck on that and choke on it



> Drink bleach.


 <snip>



> Care to give me a panel where it says part 1 Gaara could be considered a Kage?


lol. so he was magically kage by start of part 2. maybe in ur manga there was an interim kage after his dad death



> What the fuck are you on about?


 <snip>



> Stop using the word troll when it makes no sense.


 troll



> If part 1 Gaara was able to react to the bone forest then so can Mei and Rasa.


true. gaara can fly. i didnt know Mei could.  troll. or is she to somehow jump out of the entire AoE. with her massive speed feats. oh wait she got none. 



> If my memory serves me right then it was said that Rasa stopped Shukaku with his sand. Are you saying Kimimaro is more powerful than a Bijuu?


rasa weighed shukaku sand with gold dust which is specifically heavier.  
<snip>



> Mei sets up acid mist and Kimi can't do anything but melt considering how fast ribcage Susano'o was melting.


so kimi cant dodge the little AoE of acid mist. but Mei with zero speed feats can jump out of the AOE of bone forest which is >>>>>>>>>>Acid mist.



> No I don't think so and never said anything like that. Are you stupid?


no but u are. i dont need to ask u that



> Yeah, I'm aware.
> 
> What?




<snip>



> His size and weight grow a lot?


he is the same height. try again. also cs2 never made sasuke slower

<snip>

@deer lord fair enough. so that means asuma isnt top of elite jounin. would be either hiashi or kimimaro since they both outdo him

so Mei can avoid this. btw when she jumps she got no where to land but hey  so she can avoid something like this 
Akatsuchi's

with no speed feats or speed hype

but kimi cant avoid acid mist. which has a smaller AoE and no speed behind the technique implied or shown. suuuuuuure. 

not saying he wins. but its odd part 1 characters get dismissed so casually

when by part 2 he came back. naruto KCM clone was on that battlefield and kimi was lol off panelled. but yh its easier to keep going on about gaara and lee who didnt die because kimi was sick. and took lee for good sport

i guess one should ignore haku feat of blitzing sai because genin sasuke could react to him


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## Quikdraw7777 (Apr 21, 2015)

Folks acting like Kimimaro's illness was a non-factor...

When not only did one of his techniques fail because of it, but he *died on the battlefield*  before he could finish Gaara & Lee because of it. Had he have been healthy, they wouldn't have made to part two.

I guess the "king" only gets a pass with this sickness shit.
Jesus, double standard much?


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## TheGreen1 (Apr 21, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> HAHAHHAHAHAHAJAJHAHAHAHAH
> 
> What are you smoking?



I have to facepalm there. That was my bad. I'll edit it, but I admit it.



> You do realize that any proper Jounin would rape stomp part 1 Gaara?



So those Assassins that were sent at the time (back when we believed Gaara's dad feared him) were all genin or chuunin then? I'm pretty sure a few Jounin would have tried to kill him. Now, they aren't Gai or Kakashi level or anything, but there were Jounin ranked ninja who most likely died against Gaara. But that's speculation, and I don't have immediate proof.



> Post skip Sasuke's feats are tiers above Kimimaro's.



I'm referencing the specific point in time before Sasuke tried to challenge Orochimaru. After that, yeah, he would have slaughtered Kimimaro.



> Being better at Taijutsu doesn't help when tour opponent is tiers faster than you and has Sharingan precog.



That's debateable at that time. Remember, I'm referring to Sasuke before Orochimaru slaying. 



> lol



Concession accepted


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## Ghost (Apr 21, 2015)

TheGreen1 said:


> So those Assassins that were sent at the time (back when we believed Gaara's dad feared him) were all genin or chuunin then? I'm pretty sure a few Jounin would have tried to kill him. Now, they aren't Gai or Kakashi level or anything, but there were Jounin ranked ninja who most likely died against Gaara. But that's speculation, and I don't have immediate proof.


They were pretty much chuunin fodder I imagine. When I say "proper Jounin" I mean people like Kakashi, Guy, Asuma etc. Background Jounin/chuunin usually are only able to use Kunais and have genin level stats. 





> That's debateable at that time. Remember, I'm referring to Sasuke before Orochimaru slaying.


But you are still talking about post skip Sasuke, right? Pre or post Orochimaru slaying Sasuke, it doesn't matter.  





> Concession accepted


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## Deer Lord (Apr 21, 2015)

of course asuma isn't top of elitle jounin
he's like in the middle.

mei has feats of blocking madara's katons and surviving against sussano clones
that should be more than enough to deal with kimi's speed.


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## Ghost (Apr 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so a physical sickness that has him die mid swing wont affect someone who solely uses taijutsu?


It did affect him. Made him a ticking time bomb. Kimimaro himself says the he is running out of time. 


> despite the fact that lee was blantantly stated to be slower and weaker due to broken bones which were healed by tsunade.
> but somehow u feel kimimaro was close to what he showed.


Huh? Are you comparing broken bones to the illness Kimimaro had? How are they even remotely similar? Kimimaro had nothing wrong with his bones. 




> kimi wasnt at his best nor did he take lee. seriously.


Databook(?) says that Kimimaro's will power gave him strength. Also great fan fic about Kimimaro not taking Lee seriously. Read the fucking fight. 

base Kimimaro was bested by injured drunken fist Lee. 


> they can be faster. wont help gai punch through kimi bones though.


Except that Kimimaro won't be able to react to Guy thus he won't have his Kekkei Genkai ready to protect him. 





> i can come up with the author statements in the manga


What? Are you saying that statements by character C regarding characters A and B > feats? <snip>

Tell me, is Hiruzen stronger than Hashirama? Iruka said so.Thus Kishi said so.

<snip>



> why not. while he was alive kishi said he was the strongest kage. so that puts him above Ei, onoki, Mei, and rasa. Considering hiruzen knew details of jinton. i dont see why its impossible for him to have fought onoki.


Except that Ei and Onoki would both comfortably beat Hiruzen. ET Hiruzen didn't gain feats to be the God of Shinobi. 

<snip>



> oro said kabuto cant kill him. and compared kakashi to kabuto. kakashi shat himself at oro killer intent. .


What is the point of bringing this up anyways?


> engaging itachi lol he was lagging behind and said itachi hasnt shown anything yet.
> btw once he got serious kakashi was out for a week


It is irrelevant how well Kakashi did against Itachi. The fact is he took on someone who he knew was stronger than him. 





> the host who could transform into shukaku and use possum technique. yh chunin level


Uhh, yes. Gaara was beaten by Chuunin level Sasuke. Shukaku is not part of Gaara's strength since its not him fighting at all. Or are you saying part 1 Naruto is Kage level due to Gamabunta and Kurama?



> genma !! in the manga that kishi wrote. said sasuke was at chunin level very specifically.


Genma saying Sasuke is Chuunin level makes sense though and nothing at any point in the manga contradicted that, 

<snip>



> lol. so he was magically kage by start of part 2. maybe in ur manga there was an interim kage after his dad death


Are you saying Gaara is incapable of training? Sasuke made it to kage level during the time skip. 

<snip>



> true. gaara can fly. i didnt know Mei could.  troll. or is she to somehow jump out of the entire AoE. with her massive speed feats. oh wait she got none.


In the manga panel you posted there were quite a few branches where anyone with a pair of limbs can land onto.  




> rasa weighed shukaku sand with gold dust which is specifically heavier.
> aww poor kid dont know the manga much does he


Are you this dull? Why wouldn't he have his Gold dust against Kimimaro now? 




> so kimi cant dodge the little AoE of acid mist. but Mei with zero speed feats


Dodge the mist? The mist surrounds Mei, its used for defense in an open space. 

<snip>



> he is the same height. try again.


Your stupidity is killing me. There are plenty of people shorter than me yet heavier. Have you seen the huge tail and bones that CS lvl 2 grows? Kimimaro gains more mass when he transforms. 


> also cs2 never made sasuke slower


Son, you're going to need a pair of glasses. Sasuke and Kimimaro are two different characters with different curse marks if you haven't noticed. 

<snip>


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> It did affect him. Made him a ticking time bomb. Kimimaro himself says the he is running out of time.



kimimaro getting out of bed was through will power. itachi illness who btw looked alot less impactful actually had zetsu comment on how he would have avoided a shiruken had he not been sick. why would kimi illness be different. considering kimi was being taken care of by a med specialist and still died from being sick. itachi we never saw him on a death bed 



> Huh? Are you comparing broken bones to the illness Kimimaro had? How are they even remotely similar? Kimimaro had nothing wrong with his bones.


healed broken bones have alot less of an impact than something that killed kimi mid swing
and something that had him getting up only through will power 



> Databook(?) says that Kimimaro's will power gave him strength. Also great fan fic about Kimimaro not taking Lee seriously. Read the fucking fight.


manga says it. he got only through his will power. hence tayuya reaction to even seeing him in the first place. she saw him and was like how did u get out of bed 



> base Kimimaro was bested by injured drunken fist Lee.


u mean the same kimimaro that let lee drink his meds in the first place? yh that guy was seriously intending to kill lee. 



> Except that Kimimaro won't be able to react to Guy thus he won't have his Kekkei Genkai ready to protect him.


 so ur saying gai can move and kill him before kimi can think which is all he needs to put up a defense. 

jugo could react to V1 Ei who is faster than base gai. but somehow kimi cant react to base gai speed. <snip>

<snip>



> Tell me, is Hiruzen stronger than Hashirama? Iruka said so.Thus Kishi said so.


iruka said hiruzen is the strongest kage. he never said hiruzen is the strongest kage in history. so not sure what ur on about. <snip>

<snip>



> Except that Ei and Onoki would both comfortably beat Hiruzen. ET Hiruzen didn't gain feats to be the God of Shinobi.


odd. kishi seems to disagree. the entire manga isnt all about feats. <snip>
genin rock lee has more speed feats than MEi. doesnt mean he will blitz mei now would he. 
 <snip>

<snip>



> What is the point of bringing this up anyways?


u tell me 



> It is irrelevant how well Kakashi did against Itachi. The fact is he took on someone who he knew was stronger than him.


and lost. itachi didnt have any murder intent maybe thats why





> Uhh, yes. Gaara was beaten by Chuunin level Sasuke. Shukaku is not part of Gaara's strength since its not him fighting at all. Or are you saying part 1 Naruto is Kage level due to Gamabunta and Kurama?


not the same gaara but yh sure. 
really, considering gaara can transform into shukaku. 

naruto couldnt transform to kurama. gaara could at will 



> Genma saying Sasuke is Chuunin level makes sense though and nothing at any point in the manga contradicted that,


u asked so i answered. now u saying it makes sense.  gotta love ur posts

<snip>



> Are you saying Gaara is incapable of training? Sasuke made it to kage level during the time skip.


no u are since u believe the gaara that sasuke lost to is remotely comparable to the gaara that kimimaro faced. chunin level my ass. 
<snip>



> In the manga panel you posted there were quite a few branches where anyone with a pair of limbs can land onto.


and be skewered by kimi growing through that bone. also difficult to jump to avoid bones growing out of no where. they dont all grow at the same time or grow at the same length




> Are you this dull? Why wouldn't he have his Gold dust against Kimimaro now?


   i never said this but wow. <snip>. i said gold dust is effective against shukaku. because his body is made of sand. weighing him down with heavy sand isnt the same thing as using it on someone else not made of sand. considering rasa specifically said he used to weigh shukaku down to stop him. 



> Dodge the mist? The mist surrounds Mei, its used for defense in an open space.


feats of this please. So kimi cant dodge mist but Mei perfectly lands on bones popping out of no where. nice one



> Great comeback. 10/10


weak comeback 0/100. i guess am doing better than u are



> I'm not making shit up, so, yeah.


sure thing buddy 



> Your stupidity is killing me. There are plenty of people shorter than me yet heavier. Have you seen the huge tail and bones that CS lvl 2 grows? Kimimaro gains more mass when he transforms.


 says the idiot. 
prove kimi got heavier. did he say he got heavier. 
 cute u make things up to try have a point

u would have to prove on panel he says all this extra shit slowing me down. sasuke grows 2 giant wings and isnt slowed down 




> Son, you're going to need a pair of glasses. Sasuke and Kimimaro are two different characters with different curse marks if you haven't noticed.


<snip>. jugo compared sasuke Cs2 usage to kimimaro's directly when he saw how well sasuke used it

<snip>


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 22, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke sticks Chidori Eisou in Kimimaro and puts so many holes in him just by flowering it.
> 
> Then he flicks his wrist and tears Kimi to shit.
> 
> Sasuke wins, no difficulty.




What he said.


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## Ghost (Apr 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> kimimaro getting out of bed was through will power. itachi illness who btw looked alot less impactful actually had zetsu comment on how he would have avoided a shiruken had he not been sick. why would kimi illness be different. considering kimi was being taken care of by a med specialist and still died from being sick.





Why do you keep ignoring the quote from the databook that AP posted? It clearly says that through will power Kimimaro was *able to fight like he had no sickness at all*. He managed to best the (effects of the)sickness until he suddenly died. 



> itachi we never saw him on a death bed



Except that it was said that Itachi would've died long before the fight Sasuke had he not filled himself up with medicine. He was coughing up blood during the fight and Zetsu said it was as if Itachi had been injured before fighting Sasuke and that he should've been much stronger. Nothing of that sorts was said about Kimimaro. 






> healed broken bones have alot less of an impact than something that killed kimi mid swing
> and something that had him getting up only through will power


Dude, I really have no idea where you are getting at. I don't understand where this comparison between broken limbs and Kimimaro's illness come from.  




> u mean the same kimimaro that let lee drink his meds in the first place? yh that guy was seriously intending to kill lee.



Considering _Orochimaru_ gave him the mission to bring Sasuke to him, yes, he was serious about killing Lee. Lee suddenly interrupting him and telling him he needs to take his meds just took him by surprise. It's not like Lee started an hour long session to power up or anything. Kimimaro stopping for a few seconds for Lee to take his meds in no way indicate he wasn't serious when fighting. 




> so ur saying gai can move and kill him before kimi can think which is all he needs to put up a defense.


Yeah, I'm saying that Guy will land a kick on Kimimaro's head before Kimi realizes to use his Kekkei Genkai for defense. Are you saying that part 1 Gaara and Lee are able to react to Guy's speed? They were able to react to Kimimaro's. 



> jugo could react to V1 Ei who is faster than base gai. but somehow kimi cant react to base gai speed. omg i love the fan wank



Except that Juugo isn't Kimimaro so why should anyone assume that Kimimaro has just as good reflexes as he does. It's not like Juugo is as fast as V1 Ei. 



> disregarding what kishi says because u prefer fan wank



Mangakas make mistakes and retcons happen. So, is Hiruzen beating Hashirama in a fight? 



> iruka said hiruzen is the strongest kage. he never said hiruzen is the strongest kage in history. so not sure what ur on about. prolly some fan wank







> weaker


Good that you admit that. 



> odd. kishi seems to disagree. the entire manga isnt all about feats.


The point of battledome is to discuss fights between characters using feats from the manga.


> genin rock lee has more speed feats than MEi. doesnt mean he will blitz mei now would he.


Except that everyone here knows that Mei is faster than part 1 Lee. 




> u tell me


Why should I tell you when you were the one who brought it up? 





> and lost.


Why bring it up? Doesn't make a difference as I said.


> itachi didnt have any murder intent maybe thats why


Kakashi was perfectly aware of Itachi's reputation and abilities. No need for Itachi to exert any blood lust. 






> not the same gaara but yh sure.


No, but Gaara was still piss poor physically. Only his sand got stronger. Any Jounin would run past his sand and slit his throat. 



> naruto couldnt transform to kurama. gaara could at will



Naruto could at will summon Gamabunta which allows him to beat part 1 Hiruzen. Was Naruto kage level in part 1?  



> u asked so i answered. now u saying it makes sense.  gotta love ur posts



As I said, It makes sense when nothing contradicts it. Learn to read. 




> no u are since u believe the gaara that sasuke lost to is remotely comparable to the gaara that kimimaro faced. chunin level my ass.



Avoiding answering the question as usual I see. 



> i never said this but wow. u however are a retard. i said gold dust is effective against shukaku. because his body is made of sand. weighing him down with heavy sand isnt the same thing as using it on someone else not made of sand. considering rasa specifically said he used to weigh shukaku down to stop him.


So you are saying gold sand is heavier than normal sand? Thus making it more powerful? So shouldn't breaking through gold sand be more challenging for Kimi then?  



> feats of this please. So kimi cant dodge mist but Mei perfectly lands on bones popping out of no where. nice one


THE MIST *SURROUNDS MEI*. KIMIMARO IS A *CLOSE RANGE* FIGHTER. OFC HE CAN'T AVOID THE MIST IF HE IS CLOSE TO MEI.





> sure thing buddy


You are actually saying that Kimimaro was not serious against Lee when nothing in the manga indicates that. And that gain of mass doesn't increase weight. Wow. 




> .
> prove kimi got heavier. did he say he got heavier.
> cute u make things up to try have a point


Are you fucking kidding me? Kimi literally grows a huge tail and big ass bones on his back and you say he doesn't get any heavier? HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE?


> sasuke grows 2 giant wings and isnt slowed down


Actually nowhere is it said that CS lvl 2 Sauce isn't slower than CS lvl 1 or base Sasuke. 



> daughter ur going to need a new brain. jugo compared sasuke Cs2 usage to kimimaro's directly when he saw how well sasuke used it



He said that since Kimimaro no one except Sasuke has been so good at controlling the CS. How is this relevant again?


> he is a much much much better poster than u are.



No, he really is not.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 22, 2015)

Bloody hell, this is downright apalling.


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## Xin (Apr 22, 2015)

> multiquotes
> thousands of them


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## FlamingRain (Apr 22, 2015)

Jūgo's observation doesn't put them near each other. He didn't say Sasuke "may be as good as" Kimimaro, he said Sasuke was the "strongest _since_ Kimimaro"- that could be anything _at least_ at Kimimaro's level, even something _well beyond it_, and from what we know Sasuke is in fact far beyond Kimi.

Kimimaro was a particularly tough Jōnin-level fighter while pre-Hebi Sasuke was easily operating at the Kage-level, as he defeated a Deidara that was actually going for the kill _without_ relying on the powers of the White Snake he gained when he absorbed Orochimaru.

The Uchiha's a bad match for Kimi in addition to that anyway since he actually has the offense necessary to penetrate the Shikotsumyaku bone defenses to injure him without getting into melee-range where Kimimaro's skill actually exceeds his own (plus the OP gave him knowledge of Kimimaro's Kekkei Genkai).

Sasuke wins.


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2015)

Let's be honest here. Kabuto compared Sick-Kimi to Sasuke Post-CS2, wondering which one was stronger and everything Sick-Kimi could dish out was countered by SRA-Gaara, bar Swaribi no Mai. The data-book also says Kimi was not hindered in speed/reactions as his will-power overcame the effects of his sickness. So Healthy-Kimi will have more stamina and not die mid match, but PII-Sasuke is still eons above SRA-Gaara and SRA-Sasuke, so he would easily deal with everything Kimi could throw at him besides Swarabi no Mai. Swarabi no Mai [w/ Kimi not dying from illness] could still be a threat to him, but he has ways to survive w/ CS2 Wings, Large Summons, etc...and his Sharingan to find Kimi hiding in the bones, so even that he should be able to overcome much more often than not And Swarabi no Mai is Kimi's only small chance at winning, while Sasuke has much more chances to win with Chidori Variants, Genjutsu, and Kirin. 

Sasuke's odds are simply way higher than Kimi, and quite franky Sasuke is a decent amount stronger than Kimi.


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## Hazuki (Apr 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Let's be honest here. Kabuto compared Sick-Kimi to Sasuke Post-CS2, wondering which one was stronger and everything Sick-Kimi could dish out was countered by SRA-Gaara, bar Swaribi no Mai. The data-book also says Kimi was not hindered in speed/reactions as his will-power overcame the effects of his sickness. So Healthy-Kimi will have more stamina and not die mid match, but PII-Sasuke is still eons above SRA-Gaara and SRA-Sasuke, so he would easily deal with everything Kimi could throw at him besides Swarabi no Mai. Swarabi no Mai [w/ Kimi not dying from illness] could still be a threat to him, but he has ways to survive w/ CS2 Wings, Large Summons, etc...and his Sharingan to find Kimi hiding in the bones, so even that he should be able to overcome much more often than not And Swarabi no Mai is Kimi's only small chance at winning, while Sasuke has much more chances to win with Chidori Variants, Genjutsu, and Kirin.
> 
> Sasuke's odds are simply way higher than Kimi, and quite franky Sasuke is a decent amount stronger than Kimi.




ah finally someone clever  with good argument!! 

i agree with you exept for one thing



> ]Let's be honest here. Kabuto compared* Sick*-Kimi to Sasuke Post-CS2, wondering which one was stronger



actually kabuto never talk about sick kimi 
kimi was on his bed , kabuto was wondering who is the strongest between the two 

sasuke  and cs2 (part 1)
kimimaro cs2 healh

he never include the fact that kimi would be sick in that's question 
kabuto would have never wondering who is the strongerst between sasuke cs2 part 1 and an poor ninja his bed death who couldn't move his finger

so i really think that for kabuto who is like a mentor to kimimaro he know how strong he is but  he think that kimimaro even in his healthy is only on sasuke and naruto part 1 level 

kimi sick  had a lots of trouble against garaa who is without a doubt weaker than naruto and sasuke ( end of part 1)

garaa wasn't the strongest rookies at the end of part 1


the fact that kabuto was wondering that's question prove just that kimi is just too much overstimates since long and long years and that he is far to be a good jounin level like sasuke part 2 beginning


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## DavyChan (Apr 24, 2015)

I'd give Sasuke the edge.Sasuke here is def > than Gaara, drunk lee, and naruto (all pre-skip forms)
He is a good enuf margin stronger than them to be able to high diff kimimaro


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