# Who is Itachi closest to in terms of power; Minato or Jiraiya?



## Itachі (Apr 11, 2016)

Talking about 1v1 potential here.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 11, 2016)

Sick Itachi follows along the line of Sage Jiraiya's level, Edo Tensei Itachi is closer to Minato.

Itachi can't take Minato when both are living. His stamina doesn't allow for it.


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## Mercurial (Apr 11, 2016)

Itachi trashes Jiraiya (much faster, genjutsu GG, Totsuka GG) without much trouble, if trouble at all. 

While Itachi gets defeated by Minato more times than not (Hiraishin) but he has a chance to defeat him with genjutsu, at least.

Jiraiya << Itachi < Minato


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## Turrin (Apr 11, 2016)

Firstly I don't think you can strictly talk about 1v1 potential when discussing "power-levels" because the Narutoverse is not primarily about 1v1 matches. The entire way Shinobi are intrinsically taught to develop and train is with both individual combat and team combat in mind, but w/ more focus on the latter than the former. A Shinobi can graduate from the Academy by developing individuals skills, but they will be swiftly sent back to the academy if they fail to pass their Jonin sensei's test, and the key focus of said test we saw was Team-Work. Like wise the Chunin exams have individual and team portions, but at the end of the day whether someone is promoted or not is not dependent on their individual strength but the way they can handle themselves in a team setting and in a team leadership role. That's why Shikkamaru was the only one to pass the exams, and most people considered Shikkamaru superior to Temari and real victor of their match. It's also why Jiraiya holds Tsunade in superior regard to himself because on the battlefield, her combat and support capabilities combined make her a more beneficial component to her team. And so on. So when the manga portrays a certain character's "level" as a Shinobi it's also going to be with the team element in mind. And I think that's one of the major reasons so many people struggle with "power-levels" as they are depicted in the manga.

With that out of the way I do believe that it goes Minato > Jiraiya >= Itachi, but it's not like any of the gaps are enormous, all three are edging their way to the top of high-tier and are only out done by a very select few, that border between High-Tier and God-Tier, like Nagato, Obito, Kabuto, and Danzo. Anyway, the reasoning being that while I consider Itachi's Mangekyo Powers somewhat superior to Jiraiya's Sage-Mode (Itachi has perfect mastery of Mangeky, while Jiraiya's SM is still imperfect), Itachi can't utilize Mangekyo as freely as Jiraiya can utilize SM, and mastering Mangekyo has weakened Itachi in other areas like his eyesight. So while Jiraiya can utilize his powers freely in any matches he deems fit, Itachi has to always limit himself or is himself limit. So it's like if Jiraiya's power is a 90, and Itachi is a 100, but Itachi can only fight w/ 80 or less power at any given time, due to the drawbacks of his power, Jiraiya is overall going to be the superior Ninja in many instances. This is also why I think Itachi says on a good day, he could take Jiraiya down w/ him, because if he held back too much he'd loose, but if he fought w/ full force he'd probably win but at the cost of his own death due to Mangekyo Drawbacks. Edo-Buffs of course does away w/ this restriction which is why I consider Edo-Itachi above Jiriaya, but Edo-Itachi isn't Itachi, because that's Itachi being empowered by someone else Jutsu, so that doesn't speak towards his overall level as a Ninja, anymore than Naruto giving Hinata BM chakra.

Minato on the other hand is above both of them, as his power and skill is up there w/ Itachi's, but he has no drawbacks to utilizing his skills that keep him down. And he actually pushes it even a little further than that w/ Sennin Modo, but since it has such huge drawbacks, that prevents him from quite reaching the next grouping (Danzo, Kabuto, etc...)

This is of course talking a-lot about their powers, but there is certain portrayal in place to support this assessment as well, but such statements have been compared to death, so I won't really waste time rehashing that here, needless to say I think overall portrayal also places it as Minato > Jiraiya >= Itachi


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## Ersa (Apr 11, 2016)

Edo Itachi ~ Minato > Sick Itachi ~ Jiraiya


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## Matty (Apr 11, 2016)

Ersa said:


> Edo Itachi ~ Minato > Sick Itachi ~ Jiraiya



This, except SM Jiraiya is definitely  above sick itachi


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## Rinnegan Zetsu (Apr 11, 2016)

I'm gonna say they're all equal in their prime, and have their pros/cons against each other.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 11, 2016)

Matty said:


> This, except SM Jiraiya is definitely  above sick itachi



I think they're on the same level. I think sick Itachi and Sage Jiraiya were the benchmarks for Sasuke to surpass in the Kage Summit Arc and Naruto to surpass in the Pain Arc respectively.


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## Ersa (Apr 11, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I think they're on the same level. I think sick Itachi and Sage Jiraiya were the benchmarks for Sasuke to surpass in the Kage Summit Arc and Naruto to surpass in the Pain Arc respectively.


I think you could almost argue SM Jiraiya as a whole is potentially stronger but because he needs time to access his full power I usually would argue overall Jiraiya is weaker simply because people like Minato, Itachi, B and whatnot can easily capitalize on the weaker base Jiraiya.

If Jiraiya could start every fight in SM he could be above Sick Itachi for me potentially.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Firstly I don't think you can strictly talk about 1v1 potential when discussing "power-levels" because the Narutoverse is not primarily about 1v1 matches. The entire way Shinobi are intrinsically taught to develop and train is with both individual combat and team combat in mind, but w/ more focus on the latter than the former. A Shinobi can graduate from the Academy by developing individuals skills, but they will be swiftly sent back to the academy if they fail to pass their Jonin sensei's test, and the key focus of said test we saw was Team-Work. Like wise the Chunin exams have individual and team portions, but at the end of the day whether someone is promoted or not is not dependent on their individual strength but the way they can handle themselves in a team setting and in a team leadership role. That's why Shikkamaru was the only one to pass the exams, and most people considered Shikkamaru superior to Temari and real victor of their match. It's also why Jiraiya holds Tsunade in superior regard to himself because on the battlefield, her combat and support capabilities combined make her a more beneficial component to her team. And so on. So when the manga portrays a certain character's "level" as a Shinobi it's also going to be with the team element in mind. And I think that's one of the major reasons so many people struggle with "power-levels" as they are depicted in the manga.
> 
> With that out of the way I do believe that it goes Minato > Jiraiya >= Itachi, but it's not like any of the gaps are enormous, all three are edging their way to the top of high-tier and are only out done by a very select few, that border between High-Tier and God-Tier, like Nagato, Obito, Kabuto, and Danzo. Anyway, the reasoning being that while I consider Itachi's Mangekyo Powers somewhat superior to Jiraiya's Sage-Mode (Itachi has perfect mastery of Mangeky, while Jiraiya's SM is still imperfect), Itachi can't utilize Mangekyo as freely as Jiraiya can utilize SM, and mastering Mangekyo has weakened Itachi in other areas like his eyesight. So while Jiraiya can utilize his powers freely in any matches he deems fit, Itachi has to always limit himself or is himself limit. So it's like if Jiraiya's power is a 90, and Itachi is a 100, but Itachi can only fight w/ 80 or less power at any given time, due to the drawbacks of his power, Jiraiya is overall going to be the superior Ninja in many instances. This is also why I think Itachi says on a good day, he could take Jiraiya down w/ him, because if he held back too much he'd loose, but if he fought w/ full force he'd probably win but at the cost of his own death due to Mangekyo Drawbacks. Edo-Buffs of course does away w/ this restriction which is why I consider Edo-Itachi above Jiriaya, but Edo-Itachi isn't Itachi, because that's Itachi being empowered by someone else Jutsu, so that doesn't speak towards his overall level as a Ninja, anymore than Naruto giving Hinata BM chakra.
> 
> ...






Well......that teamwork thing doesn't really seem to apply to God Itachi since he Konoha Elders made him took the Chuunin exam solo, unlike everyone else. 

Jiraiya is no where near the top of the high tiers mainly due to the fact that his greatest technique takes a lot of time to use unlike other high tiers. You cannot seriously argue that Base Jiraiya with his hands clapped together stands a chance of lasting more than a few seconds against any of the high tiers who can use their strongest technique in no time at all.


The statement Itachi made in Part 1 about Jiraiya was also given a whole new perspective when Kisame asked Itachi why was a retreated necessary for him, indicating confidence in Itachi's capabilities after witnessing Jiraiya himself. You've got to remember that Kisame has never met Jiraiya before, so all he knew was reputation.
Even by portrayal wise, Itachi has always been above Sanin level....even at 13 years old when he beat Orochimaru (Who Jiraiya considers his equal) with ease. 

Sasuke never surpassed Itachi until during the war, while Naruto surpassed Jiraiya during Pain Arc..... Even during the Kabuto fight, there were many instances where Kishi shows Sasuke still hasn't surpassed Itachi while Naruto has surpassed Jiraiya by leaps and bounds. I mean, Sick Itachi or not, his opponents will still have to deal with Tsukuyomi, Amateratsu and Susano. It won't matter if he's sick or not if his opponent get's wrecked by 1 genjutsu.

His "Sickness" only applies when the opponent has a way of getting around all of Itachi's MS techniques. Obviously the blurred eyes and coughing up blood doesn't help, but we luckily MS tech's are 1 hit kill in most cases.

By portrayal wise, no one stands above Itachi and Minato (Under God tiers of course)....Even from Kishi's interviews.


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## ImSerious (Apr 12, 2016)

Edo Minato >>> Minato >>>>>>>>>>> Edo Itachi > Itachi > Jiraiya

So closer to Jiraiya.


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## Bonly (Apr 12, 2016)

Itachi and Minato are pretty much equal to me so yeah Itachi is closer to Minato


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## Alex Payne (Apr 12, 2016)

Itachi is on Minato's general level. Jiraiya is not.


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## ImSerious (Apr 12, 2016)

itachi isn't anywhere close to minato's general level. i advice you to let that delusional thought go.


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## Trojan (Apr 12, 2016)

Minato > Jiraiya >= itachi.

I think the manga made it clear. 

It's just in the realm of fan-fiction where they made shit up like

Narudo > Minato's son
Sasuke > itachi's brother

Minato prepared Kurama for Narudo
Itachi prepared E/MS for Sasuke 

and some other shit. And then they claimed since there is a similarity in their roles, then that must mean they
are around the same level power-wise. 

However, in reality, such a comparison has never been made in the manga. Itachi has only been compared to
the Sannin in the manga and in the Databook. And even his role is much closer to Jiraiya that to Minato's really.

That was also the general thing, and then came Edo Itachi with few more jutsu that barely matters like
1- Shrukin with fire
2- Megatama (as powerful as explosion tag) 
3- Izanami that is dangerous to pull off and extremely limited to selected characters (Izanagi users/Kabuto)
4- Water Dragon (although only in the Genjutsu) 

And supposedly those C-level ~ B-Level jutsu were more than enough for some people to think that itachi
far exceeds Jiraiya! 

All in all, people are simply delusional about it. Kishi gave it flat out, and did not try to pull tricks when it came to itachi's level.

You might see some people saying some rubbish about Genjutsu GG, Amatersu GG, but we all know that those are garbage claims that never actually occurs. 
And we have seen how much itachi was at a disadvantage against SM, and we have seen Jiraiya taken on a superior opponent that itachi as well.

The other part of their delusion is relying on itachi for some God-knows reason being far superior than other MS users like Izuna, Sasuke, and Obito who got
their asses beaten by FTG users, but for some reason they think itachi is an exception.  

Funny, they are using that same logic to say that itachi > Jiraiya, because he defeated Oro, but they do not use their own logic when it becomes against their
beloved itachi.


That's the whole story I guess.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 12, 2016)

Itachi is and has always been closer to Minato, sick, healthy, edo or whatnot.

If someone people can't get over that one questionable statement from 10 years ago, that is their problem. Story evolved and characters got developed, wars won and lost during that time. Nothing is the same except for that one fact. Itachi still solos.


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## Trojan (Apr 12, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> *
> If someone people can't get over that one questionable statement from 10 years ago, that is their problem. Story evolved and characters got developed, wars won and lost during that time. Nothing is the same except for that one fact.* Itachi still solos.



And the itachi and Jiraiya statement got only stronger, with time. 
Itachi fan-boys are making shit up. Let's say how the story evolved with those characters. 

Part 1 itachi had both of his most wanked jutsu, which are his MS jutsu. And yet, Kishi made it clear that Jiraiya is stronger than him. So, that's already tell us that any argument about those jutsu soloing because "Kishi did not think of those moves back then" has only 1 place. Garbage can. 

Then comes, part 2. 
1- Jiraiya worked as a spy (and actually delivered)
1- Itachi worked as a spy (and failed miserably) 

2- Jiraiya has 35.5 in Databook (in base)
2- itachi got 35.5 (with sharingan/MS considered)

3- Jiraiya was fighting off Pain
3- At the exact same time itachi was fighting Hebi Sasuke.

4- Jiraiya's death was a direct impact to Narudo's character
4- Itachi's "reveal" was a direct impact to Sasuke's character.

5- Jiraiya's death made his most powerful mode passed down to Narudo
5- Itachi's death made MS passed down to Sasuke

Note: Narudo with SM was noted to be stronger than MS Sasuke (no Amatersu GG rubbish) 

6- Pain Arc was revolved around Jiraiya's students and his ideas to Narudo/Nagato. 
6- the Kage arc was because of the impact that happened to itachi

7- Narudo was noted to be better than Jiraiya in term of SM in Pain Arc
7- Sasuke was noted to be better than itachi in term of Amatersu 

So, the story evolving did not change shit between Jiraiya and itachi as their moves/believes/impact
was affecting Narudo and Sasuke in the exact manner. 


Then came Edo Itachi. 

One of the main arguments for itachi was always Susanoo. However, more weaknesses were discovered about it.

1- Sound based jutsu (which Jiraiya has Frog Song & Frog call) like Kabuto did.
2- Attacking from underneath like Gaara did with Madara (which Jiraiya has the swamp as well)

And we have seen how Sensing is extremely useful against Genjutsu/Sharingan users several times
and Kabuto's battle. Giving SM more reality over MS. 

Which also supported by

SM Narudo > MS Sasuke
SM Hashirama > EMS Madara
SM Jiraiya > MS itachi

That's how the story evolved my making a clear different between the two. Unlike the rubbish people were saying about MS being the superior power. lol 

So yea, your agenda & bias are pretty much based on nothing. You stated that the story evolved, and yet couldn't say anything on how was that statement effected.


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## ARGUS (Apr 12, 2016)

Edo Itachi > Minato > Itachi > SM Jiraiya


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 12, 2016)

Minato > Edo Itachi > Sick Itachi >= Jiraiya


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## Icegaze (Apr 12, 2016)

Both equally 
Jiriaya is abit lower . Minato is abit higher

Turrin post was quite elaborate though . While MS > imperfect sage mode . The fact still remains Jiriaya can fight at that imperfect SM level for a very extended period of time . While itachi even healthy would only be able to use MS for 10 minutes max . Based on Sasuke battle with danzo . 

Itachi can achieve this level immediately while jiraiya can not . 

Minato however can fight at their general level with no draw backs for as long as needed . Hence why he is above them . Even though he lacks their fire power .


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## ARGUS (Apr 12, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Read the manga bro, and leave your usual wank.



Why is it that whenever I post, you get soo butthurt that you always say I wank? 

Unlike you, I don't wank fake anime characters.


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## Itachi san88 (Apr 12, 2016)

Edo Minato >> Edo Itachi = Minato > Sick Itachi > Jiraiya


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## Sapherosth (Apr 12, 2016)

Hussain said:


> And the itachi and Jiraiya statement got only stronger, with time.
> Itachi fan-boys are making shit up. Let's say how the story evolved with those characters.
> 
> Part 1 itachi had both of his most wanked jutsu, which are his MS jutsu. And yet, Kishi made it clear that Jiraiya is stronger than him. So, that's already tell us that any argument about those jutsu soloing because "Kishi did not think of those moves back then" has only 1 place. Garbage can.
> ...






I see so many things wrong with this I don't even know where to begin. 


Itachi worked as a spy, yes, but we have no idea to what extent he gave info to the 3rd Hokage, or even if he can, considering he's considered a rogue Ninja, so he can't just walk into the Hokage's office and give information.  Secondly, Itachi kept  adult Obito away from Konoha for almost a decade by himself even though teenage Obito didn't even give a shit and attacked Konoha when Minato and the 3rd were still in the village.




*2- Jiraiya has 35.5 in Databook (in base)
2- itachi got 35.5 (with sharingan/MS considered)*

MS considered?  Hahaha.  MS techniques are considered as Ninjutsu and Genjutsu correct? He got a maximum of 5 in both of those. Not sure how he could've got more. That's a really stupid example to be honest. Literally the only thing Itachi lacked was the chakra in the databook is department and anyways, databooks aren't meant to be taken seriously when we've seen so many inconsistencies.

Itachi was even stated by Kishi himself as the perfect Shinobi, and later on emphasized in the manga through Hashirama's statement as well. 

*
3- Jiraiya was fighting off Pain
3- At the exact same time itachi was fighting Hebi Sasuke.*


Yes......And Jiraiya was fighting for his life, struggling hard, while Itachi could have low-diff Sasuke. What's the point you're trying to make here?

_*4- Jiraiya's death was a direct impact to Narudo's character
4- Itachi's "reveal" was a direct impact to Sasuke's character.*_


So?


*5- Jiraiya's death made his most powerful mode passed down to Narudo
5- Itachi's death made MS passed down to Sasuke*


Yes.....and Naruto surpassed Jiraiya by a mile while Sasuke never surpassed Itachi until he got his hands on EMS and mastered it.

*Note: Narudo with SM was noted to be stronger than MS Sasuke (no Amatersu GG rubbish) *


Naruto was noted by Zetsu to be stronger than an MS Sasuke who hasn't mastered Amateratsu, Susano and Sasuke doesn't even have Tsukuyomi. When Naruto met Sasuke again, Naruto HIMSELF said that they would both die if they fought. 
Now, Naruto had no reason to lie, and no other motive, so we can take his word as the absolute truth unless proven otherwise. 



Let's face it here..... Kishi would never make a scenario where Itachi would lose. All of his fights where it is 1v1 he wrecked all his opponents low-diff and any fight where he wanted to kill he gets to kill under a chapter with relative ease.   The only fight where he's handicapped and can't kill, he still came out of top and turned his opponent into a good guy later on which saved Sasuke's life (Thus saving the shinobi world, again.) 


Not sure how Ero Senin has anything comparable to that apart from having an imperfect sage mode and having his toads to fight in his place while he keeps his hands together being helpless.   ANY high tier can defeat Jiraiya before he can enter his sage mode. 

We've already seen Jiraiya shit his pants when he saw Amateratsu for the first time and he had no idea about it at all....so how does he counter what he doesn't know when he doesn't have the speed, reflex or knowledge to avoid/counter it?   


Common sense and logic will go a long way my friend.......


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## Duhul10 (Apr 12, 2016)

the Itachi wank in this thread is hillarious.
Minato and Itachi being equal, Sick Itachi > SM Jiraiya while edo Itachi >>>> SM Jiraiya, edo itachi > Minato
I personally think he is closer to Jiraiya, or equal while edo. Minato is just a little higher.
As many have said, Jiraiya looses points overall because of his needed time to achieve said mode.
Well, I always judge his power at maximum. If I were asked: '' Who is stronger? Edo Itachi or Jiraiya?'' ; I would say Itachi
If I were asked: '' Who is stronger? Edo Itachi or SM Jiraiya?'' ; I would say Jiraiya or tie.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 12, 2016)

Hussain said:


> And the itachi and Jiraiya statement got only stronger, with time.
> Itachi fan-boys are making shit up. Let's say how the story evolved with those characters.
> 
> Part 1 itachi had both of his most wanked jutsu, which are his MS jutsu. And yet, Kishi made it clear that Jiraiya is stronger than him. So, that's already tell us that any argument about those jutsu soloing because "Kishi did not think of those moves back then" has only 1 place. Garbage can.
> ...



Bro, there is no need to force parallels.

Jiraiya is to Naruto what Oro is to Sasuke. Both Naruto and Sasuke were taught by a sannin and got their essentials from them. Oro and Jiraiya have the same parallel Naruto and Sasuke has.
Manga can't make it any more clearer than that. If you pick a forced Jiraiya / Itachi parallel over that one then you are either living in denial or mentally challenged.


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## Zensuki (Apr 12, 2016)

Edo Minato > Edo Itachi ≈ Minato > Sick Itachi ≈ Jiraiya


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## Raiken (Apr 12, 2016)

BM Edo-Minato >>>>> Edo-Itachi
KCM Edo-Minato >> Edo-Itachi
Edo-Minato = Edo-Itachi
Minato = Healthy Itachi
SM Jiraiya = Sick Itachi


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## Sapherosth (Apr 12, 2016)

Duhul10 said:


> the Itachi wank in this thread is hillarious.
> Minato and Itachi being equal, Sick Itachi > SM Jiraiya while edo Itachi >>>> SM Jiraiya, edo itachi > Minato
> I personally think he is closer to Jiraiya, or equal while edo. Minato is just a little higher.
> As many have said, Jiraiya looses points overall because of his needed time to achieve said mode.
> ...





That doesn't make much sense at all. 

If you judge Jiraiya based on his strength in SM in every fight, that would mean all of his opponents failed to stop him entering it. That is an undeniable weakness that makes Jiraiya weaker than the high tiers. If we give characters certain "advantages" which allows them to use techniques that they wouldn't have been able to otherwise use, is comparable to having Kakashi vs 4th Raikage but Raikage isn't allowed to dodge. Obviously Kakashi is going to win in a real fight, he shouldn't have been able to pull it off.

All of his "strength" would mean nothing if he gets killed before he enters SM.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 12, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> That doesn't make much sense at all.
> 
> If you judge Jiraiya based on his strength in SM in every fight, that would mean all of his opponents failed to stop him entering it. That is an undeniable weakness that makes Jiraiya weaker than the high tiers. If we give characters certain "advantages" which allows them to use techniques that they wouldn't have been able to otherwise use, is comparable to having Kakashi vs 4th Raikage but Raikage isn't allowed to dodge. Obviously Kakashi is going to win in a real fight, he shouldn't have been able to pull it off.
> 
> All of his "strength" would mean nothing if he gets killed before he enters SM.



It makes sense. I agree that he looses points overall because of that weakness. But I judge SM Jiraiya as a character on his own, not as a technique of a character. I do not know if you are able to understand what I am saying. It is quite complicated after all.
Same thing happens to Kabuto, Gai, Kakashi and even others.
In match-ups they start at their strongest/ at a high degree of their prowess.
We always have SM Kabuto in match-ups, MS Kakashi/ 3 tomoe Kakashi, 6th/7th/8th gate Gai.
It certainly makes a difference.
Why don't people make Kakashi start with his headband on his eye and put him in 5m match-ups. That way Kamui GG will not be mentioned by even the almighty Raikiri19 ( or am I wrong with this ? )
Make A start without his shroud from a couple of meters and the enemy will surely have time to react and do something. Usually when enemies are able to '' do something '' against A, he looses imo, as in threads he always starts in V1/V2 and rarely in base.
Gai is the same shit..


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Well......that teamwork thing doesn't really seem to apply to God Itachi since he Konoha Elders made him took the Chuunin exam solo, unlike everyone else.


Taking the exam solo or not, the participants are again manly grade on their capacity to work together and lead a team.



> Jiraiya is no where near the top of the high tiers mainly due to the fact that his greatest technique takes a lot of time to use unlike other high tiers. You cannot seriously argue that Base Jiraiya with his hands clapped together stands a chance of lasting more than a few seconds against any of the high tiers who can use their strongest technique in no time at all.


Kishimoto allowed Jiraiya to achieve SM while fighting Nagato whose at the absolute top of high-tier, so excluding poor match ups or extremely skewed conditions, I don't see Jiraiya having a problem achieving it against many high-tiers.

And before you say, but Nagato didn't go all out, the fact of the matter is character in the manga rarely go all out at the start of the match, rather mostly they start w/ rather basic shit, which is less dangerous than Animal Realm's Summoning Spam.




> The statement Itachi made in Part 1 about Jiraiya was also given a whole new perspective when Kisame asked Itachi why was a retreated necessary for him, indicating confidence in Itachi's capabilities after witnessing Jiraiya himself. You've got to remember that Kisame has never met Jiraiya before, so all he knew was reputation.
> Even by portrayal wise, Itachi has always been above Sanin level....even at 13 years old when he beat Orochimaru (Who Jiraiya considers his equal) with ease.


Itachi told Kisame he could fight evenly w/ Jiraiya, so obviously Kisame is going to question why retreat is necessary if Itachi is roughly on Jiraiya's level, and when Jiriaya himself is at a disadvantage. 


There is no Sannin level, that is fan-fabricated. Jiraiya was > Orochimaru back in P1 and most of PII, just like i'm sure Boruto Orochimaru is way > Jiriaya.



> Sasuke never surpassed Itachi until during the war, while Naruto surpassed Jiraiya during Pain Arc..... Even during the Kabuto fight, there were many instances where Kishi shows Sasuke still hasn't surpassed Itachi while Naruto has surpassed Jiraiya by leaps and bounds. I mean, Sick Itachi or not, his opponents will still have to deal with Tsukuyomi, Amateratsu and Susano. It won't matter if he's sick or not if his opponent get's wrecked by 1 genjutsu.


Sasuke get close to Itachi's level in the Kage Summit are but is still lacking Itachi's experience, knowledge, and some skill. The same is true of Naruto in the Pain arc and Jiraiya. Nether surpassed the other. 



> His "Sickness" only applies when the opponent has a way of getting around all of Itachi's MS techniques. Obviously the blurred eyes and coughing up blood doesn't help, but we luckily MS tech's are 1 hit kill in most cases.


I don't believe in MS 1 hit kill being likely against High-Tiers, most because it's never happened once in the manga cannon, despite Itachi fighting numerous high-tiers. Totsuka + Susano'o final form is a different story, but that's Itachi going pretty far for the win.



> By portrayal wise, no one stands above Itachi and Minato (Under God tiers of course)....Even from Kishi's interviews.


I disagree, Danzo, Nagato, Obito, & Kabuto, are all certainly above them. Prime-Hanzo, Shisui, Prime-Hiruzen, Tobirama (w/ Edos), etc... may also be above them. 

What I will say is that both Itachi and Minato are clearly some of the best high-tiers in the manga, and as I said the gaps between them are small, but Minato is better and Jiraiya is at least equivalent.

Also don't expect me to go into much more w/ this because I've discussed the points at legenth many times and have never once been convinced otherwise.


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## Icegaze (Apr 12, 2016)

Duhul I get what your saying the difference is 

All those u mentioned can achieve MS or V2 mode or SM in Kabuto case or 7th gate  a lot quicker than Jiriaya can achieve SM

It's nice to consider him a character on his own but no one actually considers the other characters separate from their base self 

The fact still remains that Jiriaya is well equipped to always enter SM regardless 

What people forget in the pain battle is Jiriaya was surprised he was having it so easy . He was like he can use all techniques why only attack me with summons . That doesn't sound like someone who barely made it to SM. Sounds more like someone wondering why the battle was going his way so to speak 

Jiriaya naturally looses points for building up SM slower than minato or Naruto however gains points for being able to maintain said mode much longer than gai or A or Kakashi maintaining their higher battle modes 

so I find it odd to place itachi above Jiriaya . However doesn't mean he won't beat jiraiya . I just don't see him beating people that Jiriaya can't


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## Sapherosth (Apr 12, 2016)

Duhul10 said:


> It makes sense. I agree that he looses points overall because of that weakness. But I judge SM Jiraiya as a character on his own, not as a technique of a character. I do not know if you are able to understand what I am saying. It is quite complicated after all.
> Same thing happens to Kabuto, Gai, Kakashi and even others.
> In match-ups they start at their strongest/ at a high degree of their prowess.
> We always have SM Kabuto in match-ups, MS Kakashi/ 3 tomoe Kakashi, 6th/7th/8th gate Gai.
> ...




Yes, but lifting up a headband and activating MS takes less than 2 seconds.  Entering the gates for Gai, as we have seen in the war has been relatively fast. Activating the 4th raikage's shroud is also fast as well. 

As you can see, all of the above has a "Fast" activation jutsu which allows them to be in their strongest form within a short period of time, unlike Jiraiya.

In Kabuto's case he was able to enter SM relatively fast and he has a reasonable method of stalling time plus other abilities such as healing, liquefying and Jugo's ability to gather natural energy . Granted he had location advantage and the bro's weren't looking to kill, it was still more impressive than Jiraya's method.


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## ARGUS (Apr 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


>



Waiting for some proof but then again all I'll get is the usual nonsense, and non existent arguments 

What I've said There is nothing but the truth. 

Edo Itachi > Minato > Itachi > SM Jiraiya


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## Raiken (Apr 12, 2016)

I wonder if Itachi didn't have Susano'o in Part 1 and that's why he considered Jiraiya above him.
Or maybe he only had lower levels of Susano'o, like what Sasuke used at the Kage Summit.

The way I see it though is the Itachi that fought Sasuke = the Jiraiya that fought Pain.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 12, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Waiting for some proof but then again all I'll get is the usual nonsense, and non existent arguments
> 
> What I've said There is nothing but the truth.
> 
> Edo Itachi > Minato > Itachi > SM Jiraiya





Edo Minato >> Base Minato >> Edo Itachi > Itachi =/> SM Jiraiya


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## Sapherosth (Apr 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Taking the exam solo or not, the participants are again manly grade on their capacity to work together and lead a team.
> 
> 
> Kishimoto allowed Jiraiya to achieve SM while fighting Nagato whose at the absolute top of high-tier, so excluding poor match ups or extremely skewed conditions, I don't see Jiraiya having a problem achieving it against many high-tiers.
> ...




_Kishimoto allowed Jiraiya to achieve SM while fighting Nagato whose at the absolute top of high-tier, so excluding poor match ups or extremely skewed conditions, I don't see Jiraiya having a problem achieving it against many high-tiers._

Erm...It was literally only the dog summon and then one or two more right at the end when Jiraiya was about to finish. Jiraiya himself wasn't "struggling" but his summon was at its limit. Against a high-tier character, they can dispatch of the toad in no time at all.



_And before you say, but Nagato didn't go all out, the fact of the matter is character in the manga rarely go all out at the start of the match, rather mostly they start w/ rather basic shit, which is less dangerous than Animal Realm's Summoning Spam._


Minato always starts with Hirashin, Raikage always start with V1 (At least), Onoki always start with Jinton, Gengetsu starts with the clam, Muu always start  by going invisible, Itachi always start with genjutsu....and so on. These are all basic techniques that are more dangerous than the summoning spam in a 1v1 scenario. I just see it as Kishi's way of allowing Jiraiya to reasonably enter Sage mode without getting killed beforehand against Pain. Notice how as soon as Jiraiya enters Sage mode, Kishi introduces the other paths. If he introduced them sooner, Jiraiya would not have been able to survive.


_Itachi told Kisame he could fight evenly w/ Jiraiya, so obviously Kisame is going to question why retreat is necessary if Itachi is roughly on Jiraiya's level, and when Jiriaya himself is at a disadvantage. 
There is no Sannin level, that is fan-fabricated. Jiraiya was > Orochimaru back in P1 and most of PII, just like i'm sure Boruto Orochimaru is way > Jiriaya._

Jiraya has never been implied or stated to be anywhere near > Orochimaru. Feats, Portrayal and Hype, neither holds the edge in this rivalry. 


_Sasuke get close to Itachi's level in the Kage Summit are but is still lacking Itachi's experience, knowledge, and some skill. The same is true of Naruto in the Pain arc and Jiraiya. Nether surpassed the other. _

It was outright stated many times that Naruto has surpassed Jiraiya since the pain arc. Sasuke got closer during the Kage summit, but he still lacked a lot...such as Tsukuyomi, V4 Susano, Spiritual weapons. 2 of those he will never have, which means Sasuke has got a lot to improve in other areas to be comparable, while Naruto has surpassed Jiraiya in control, activation speed and technique. I could have missed some, since I'm no Naruto expert.



_I don't believe in MS 1 hit kill being likely against High-Tiers, most because it's never happened once in the manga cannon, despite Itachi fighting numerous high-tiers. Totsuka + Susano'o final form is a different story, but that's Itachi going pretty far for the win.

I disagree, Danzo, Nagato, Obito, & Kabuto, are all certainly above them. Prime-Hanzo, Shisui, Prime-Hiruzen, Tobirama (w/ Edos), etc... may also be above them. _

Itachi never fought any high tiers at all, only medium-low tiers. The only time you could say Itachi "fought" against a high tier is when he used Amateratsu on Nagato which wasn't really a fight.

Danzo's hype wasn't that great at all to be honest. Nagato is demi-god tier so he's pretty much untouchable by the vast majority (No hype needed), Obito got some hype, but not nearly as much as Minato and Itachi, and Kabuto only got 1 hype....which came from himself.



_Also don't expect me to go into much more w/ this because I've discussed the points at legenth many times and have never once been convinced otherwise._


Fair enough, I've also said my part. I guess we can both agree to disagree. There is one thing I would admit though, without the SM drawbacks, Jiraiya would certainly be in the top tier, given his skill set in SM is suitable against a lot of the high tier.


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## Android (Apr 12, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> That doesn't make much sense at all.
> 
> If you judge Jiraiya based on his strength in SM in every fight, that would mean all of his opponents failed to stop him entering it. That is an undeniable weakness that makes Jiraiya weaker than the high tiers. If we give characters certain "advantages" which allows them to use techniques that they wouldn't have been able to otherwise use, is comparable to having Kakashi vs 4th Raikage but Raikage isn't allowed to dodge. Obviously Kakashi is going to win in a real fight, he shouldn't have been able to pull it off.
> 
> All of his "strength" would mean nothing if he gets killed before he enters SM.



rubbish 
first i don't think itachi gave a fuck about what you called '' undeniable weakness '' , when he was worry that jiraiya could kill both him and kisame 
hell , i don't think he even had any idea that jiraiya has sage mode , and he still admitted j-man superiority over him . 
second , if pain who is >>>>>>> itachi in almost everything , couldn't stop jiraiya from using sage mode , i don't think lolitachi can stop him either 
but whatever , keep dreaming , jiraiya superiority over itachi is a canon fact from the creator of the show himself , my and your and anyone else's opinions means jack against what the manga made perfectly clear ......for the non biased butthurts at least


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## Itachі (Apr 12, 2016)

Don't really get the thing about J-Man being able to defeat Itachi because Itachi could have one-shotted him with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu from the get-go. Whether you think Itachi is actually stronger than him is a different matter.



cctr9 said:


> hahahahaha





cctr9 said:


>





cctr9 said:


> you too , read the fucking manga



Just.. stop.


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Erm...It was literally only the dog summon and then one or two more right at the end when Jiraiya was about to finish. Jiraiya himself wasn't "struggling" but his summon was at its limit. A


It was four powerful summons right in a row (Chameleon, Cerberous, Bird, and Bull). What High-Tier in character typically starts matches w/ more powerful opening hand than that? The answer is that most don't. Which brings us to your next point:



> gainst a high-tier character, they can dispatch of the toad in no time at all.


First off they wouldn't, as again most of the time characters don't use their best moves from the jump. Secondly Jiraia is going to tailor his strategy to achieve SM against each individual enemy he's up against. So if he's up against someone like say Tsunade who can easily squash a boss summon w/ her strength, he's probably not going to summon Gammaken to defend her attacks w/ his shield and staff until he reaches SM. He's probably going to using smoke screen or other diversion tactics to escape and hideout to prep the song, or summon Bunta, and have Bunta keep attack from a distance w/ elemental ninjutsu, while playing keep away, and so on.



> Raikage always start with V1 (At least)


Ei started his match against Taka by standing around and doing nothing, and than when he did start moving at V1 speeds characters like Suigetsu and Juugo reacted to him. So I do not see V1 Ei as more difficult to deal w/ than Summon Spam, nor do I think Jiriaya would have any more difficulty achieving SM against him than he did against Nagato.



> Onoki always start with Jinton,


I don't recall Onoki starting any match w/ Jinton, unless you referring to his small cube against Sasuke, but I wouldn't really say that's the start of the match, I'd say the match started when Sasuke ambushed the summit inner chamber. Ether way I think Jiraiya can handle that small Jinton Cube w/o issue even in Base.

In Onoki's other matches, he started w/ Flight and Dotons against Deidara, only opting for Jinton when Deidara pissed him off, and even than he was stopped by Akatsuchi. Again the Edo Kage, the first move we saw on panel was Jinton, but Long-Range division had been engaged in combat w/ Edo-Kages off panel for an entire day prior to that. Even against Madara he used Dotons first. And in all of his other matches he used Dotons and Flight first. So I expect he'd start a match against Jiraiya w/ Dotons and Flight, at worst Small Jinton Cube, which is less dangerous than Summon Spam and I believe Jiraiya can deal w/ long enough to reach SM



> Gengetsu starts with the clam,


Gengetsu started his match against the alliance w/ basic Suika no Jutsu skill to escape Gaara's sand and than Taijutsu against the alliance members. Than he pulled out the Clam and hung back using his water pistol. Which in reality  is only a bit more dangerous than Animal Realm's Invisible Chameleon, but less dangerous than Chamelon + 4 Other Summons; and will be countered the same way as the Chameleon (Motion Detection Barrier). And so again, I find this less dangerous than Summon Spam and something Jiriaya can deal w/ until he reaches SM.




> Muu always start by going invisible,


So about as good as just the Chameleon, and inferior to Chameleon + Summon Spam 



> Itachi always start with genjutsu


Itachi when bloodlusted by Edo-Tensei started w/ Grand-Fireball and basic Taijutsu. Even if he starts the fight w/ Genjutsu I don't find Ukataka or 3T Genjutsu more dangerous than the Summon Spam. Jiraiya would counter w/ Partner method, blocking LOS, bushin, etc.... long enough to reach SM.



> and so on


Basically Minato, Obito, and Tobirama are the only ones (feat wise) I could see having a chance to stop SM under fair conditions, and the three of them command the most aggressive and speed driven style among all high-tiers, and even among them I could see Jiriaya still having a shot against Tobirama and Minato due to his deep knowledge of Hiraishin. 



> I just see it as Kishi's way of allowing Jiraiya to reasonably enter Sage mode without getting killed beforehand against Pain. Notice how as soon as Jiraiya enters Sage mode, Kishi introduces the other paths. If he introduced them sooner, Jiraiya would not have been able to survive.


So again if Kishimoto allowed him to reach SM against Pain, I have no reason to believe he won't allow him to reach SM against other much weaker characters.



> Jiraya has never been implied or stated to be anywhere near > Orochimaru. Feats, Portrayal and Hype, neither holds the edge in this rivalry.


I disagree. Base-Jiraiya has superior stats in the Data-book. His display against Pain feat wise was better than anything Orochimaru did in the manga sans PII-Edo-Tensei. Pain admitted w/ some knowledge Jiraiya could defeat him; while Orochimaru couldn't defeat the weaker Itachi despite researching him and the sharingan fro years. Jiraiya achieved SM, while Orochimaru could not. Itachi admitted at best he could draw w/ Jiraiya, while Orochimaru considered Itachi an impossible dream. Jiraiya also has more hype as a shinobi than Orochimaru, in terms of Kishimoto's ideals for what makes a great shinobi. Minato considering there to be no finer Shinobi than J-man. J-man willing himself back to life via pure will of fire. Obito even admitting Jiraiya will is what defeated him in the end. And so on.



> It was outright stated many times that Naruto has surpassed Jiraiya since the pain arc.


In Senjutsu, not overall. Just like it was stated in the Kages arc that Sasuke surpassed Itachi in Amaterasu/Blaze Release.



> Sasuke got closer during the Kage summit, but he still lacked a lot...such as Tsukuyomi, V4 Susano, Spiritual weapons. 2 of those he will never have, which means Sasuke has got a lot to improve in other areas to be comparable, while Naruto has surpassed Jiraiya in control, activation speed and technique. I could have missed some, since I'm no Naruto expert.


They are two halves of the same coin imo. Itachi was more skilled w/ Sharingan/MS, but Sasuke could use his longer (Superior Stamina and eyesight). Naruto was more skilled w/ Senjutsu, but Jiraiya could use his longer (Fusion). Naruto surpassed Jiriaya in Senjutsul, while Sasuke surpassed Itachi in Blaze-Release/Amaterasu.

In terms of raw power they are probably equal to Itachi/Jiraiya respectively, just excelling in different areas, but in terms of skill, knowledge, and experience, they are going to fall short in most situations, which is why they had yet to surpass them.



> Itachi never fought any high tiers at all, only medium-low tiers. The only time you could say Itachi "fought" against a high tier is when he used Amateratsu on Nagato which wasn't really a fight


Itachi had a ton of time to set up a trap on Obito and it failed to one shot him. He failed to one shot Nagato (and yes it really was a fight), and he failed to one-shot Kabuto. Now i'll grant you all three of those guys are probably among the strongest High-Tiers, and Itachi hasn't fought many upper, mid, or  low high tiers, unless you count Hebi-Sasuke which is a bit tainted, but still it has no track record of being a successful oneshot against a High-Tier, so I don't have any confidence in it being so. Especially since a character like Sasuke who wields the black flames on a higher level than Itachi has failed time and time again against Mid/Low High-Tiers or even exhausted Base-Naruto's to oneshot w/ it.

Tsukuyomi I'll give a little bit more of the benefit of the doubt, but still it has zero feats or even portrayal that makes me think it's going to be an easy oneshot on High-Tiers.



> Danzo's hype wasn't that great at all to be honest. Nagato is demi-god tier so he's pretty much untouchable by the vast majority (No hype needed), Obito got some hype, but not nearly as much as Minato and Itachi, and Kabuto only got 1 hype....which came from himself.


Danzo fought Mangekyo-Sasuke to a draw w/o Koto which has been hyped to the moon and back, so i'm not sure what your talking about there.

I also don't see how you can claim Obito is less hyped than Minato, when Minato himself hyped Obito as someone who held superior power to him and could only be defeated by someone w/ a special power, sealing the Demon-Fox into Naruto in hopes that would allow his son to succeed where he had failed, even w/ the back up of the entire Konoha Village.



> Fair enough, I've also said my part. I guess we can both agree to disagree. There is one thing I would admit though, without the SM drawbacks, Jiraiya would certainly be in the top tier, given his skill set in SM is suitable against a lot of the high tier.


And I think the issue is we see the magnitude of the drawback differently. The manga talks about the drawbacks of having to stand still and gather natural energy to enter SM, but than has be a non issue against an enemy as powerful as Nagato. It also made a huge deal about the same shit w/ Naruto, which was the whole reason for using clones and reverse summoning, and than it basically becomes a non issue in that very same fucking fight w/ Pain, where after CT, Naruto is just in SM w/o any issue whatsoever despite his clones being dispersed; and after that fight it's like never a Major issue ever again. Kishi just tends to do that shit, where he builds something up as a big drawback, but than undercuts it immediately. Like Choji dying from the Final Pill and than surviving. Like Gates heavily injuring someone, but than Gai can spam them w/o issue. Stamina in general is play around w/ and so on.

If we actually saw Jiriaya fail to achieve SM against several enemies or even Naruto for that matter, I'd put more credence into the drawback. Like I consider the Mangekyo blindness drawback more seriously, because we've seen every Mangekyo user seriously effected by it eventually, but the SM standing still drawback, only seems like an inconvenience rather than a really devastating thing.


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## Equilibrium139 (Apr 12, 2016)

So what? Itachi said in the manga he would surpass madara if he got ems but everyone strongly rejects that.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 12, 2016)

they all achieve it easier, but they still have to loose some tempo which could be crucial. That is why you will rarely see a Kakashi starting with his headband, or a base A, or Base Kabuto.
Against a strong opponent ( mid kage at least I would say ), even a couple of seconds means a lot.
I see Jiraiya's means being decent at least, if not good even against mid, maybe high kages, depending on the conditions.
He summons, takes distance and throws a barrier which shows any movement.
I personally see Animal Path's assault as > than what most kage tiers can throw in a limited time, excluding most high tiers probably.


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## Equilibrium139 (Apr 12, 2016)

Not talking to u but everyone likes to talk about how Itachi and kisame pulled back rather than fighting jiraiya. People seem to forget the circumstances. Why would Itachi fight one of the strongest ninja of the village his intention was to protect??? That's just going way over the top and unnecessary...


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> So what? Itachi said in the manga he would surpass madara if he got ems but everyone strongly rejects that.


I don't really see any reason to believe Itachi couldn't surpass Madara w/ EMS. Madara had two major things at play for him w/ EMS, Kyuubi and Susano'o. Kyuubi is controlled through Genjutsu, so I imagine Itachi w/ EMS could control Kurama as well, and Itachi's P-Susano'o w/ Totsuka and Yata Mirror equipped would be likely better than Madara's P-Susano'o. Itachi also had Izanami like Madara had Izanagi, and Itachi is highly skillful outside of MS as well.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> *itachi fans :*
> 
> zetsu said itachi was invincible , it's a manga fact you can't argue with canon you stupid people
> 
> ...






Hmm let's see. 

The first statement was said by a third party viewing the battle, and black zetsu happens to be the sibling of SOT6P and "Son" of Kaguya. He also had no reason to lie because he was talking with himself..pretty much.


2nd statement...  I don't really need to explain. No point, really.


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## Saru (Apr 12, 2016)

Itachi and Jiraiya were never really made out to be on the same level. 

The same can be said for Minato, but their hype and feats are comparable.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> hmm let's see
> 
> go home , and look for a hummer , then hit your head with it as hard as you can , if you really believe  think zetsu statement  was meanr to be taken literally
> 
> ...






Ooh, so now zetsu's statement isn't to be taken seriously........yet you would take the already questionable statement by Itachi seriously.   

I see where you're going with this now.


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## Complete_Ownage (Apr 12, 2016)

Itachi is linked to both Jiraiya and Minato to some degree

If anything Itachi should be linked to Jiraiya's more so than Minato. While Minato and Itachi do share some "parallels" I feel that Minato is shown to be a tier above Itachi.  Itachi simply shares more things in common with Jiraiya which has been hinted at numerous times through out the series. He's Jiraya's equal if not superior....Slightly Superior imo


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 12, 2016)

Jiraiya and Itachi's main powers, respectively, were Sage Mode and Mangekyō Sharingan. Naruto and Sasuke both inherited those powers. In battling Pain, Naruto's benchmark was surpassing Jiraiya, and in battling the Five Kage, Sasuke's benchmark was surpassing Itachi. I also think the constant comparisons between Naruto/Jiraiya and Sasuke/Itachi - like _"looks like Naruto has surpassed those who came before him"_, and "_He's even better at Amaterasu than Itachi!_" also further cemented that Kishimoto intended for Naruto/Sasuke to exceed them in their 'showcase' arcs, in which case, Invasion of Pain and Kage Summit.

Jiraiya and Itachi were both enormously relevant in the lives of their successors, and the fact that both of them died at similar points in the manga's running and having a palpable effect on Naruto/Sasuke, further supports that the parallel is between Jiraiya and Itachi, not Jiraiya and Minato. 

I mean, just look at it from the outside. Jiraiya/Itachi both die, leaving tremendous effects on the psyches of Naruto/Sasuke, scarring them but also helping them become stronger: Naruto learns and gains Sage Mode through determination and hard work, Sasuke gains Mangekyō Sharingan because of his Uchiha blood. Around the same time, comparisons upon comparisons are mentioned; Naruto is mentioned time and time again to be working towards surpassing his master, i.e., "_he learned it even faster than Jiraiya_!" from Fukasaku, or "_this is the farthest Pain has even been pushed_", and when Tobi flat-out says to Pain that "_Sasuke's eyes will surpass Itachi's_."

And they did. Naruto did what Jiraiya couldn't by beating Pain, and while Sasuke's surpassing Itachi was a little murkier, I believe he accomplished it overall (with Final Susano'o), because Naruto and Sasuke are paralleled and move forward simultaneously in their power growth. 

Minato, on the other hand, was Naruto's to surpass with Kyūbi Chakra Mode. Again, now the comparisons/parallels are drawn between those two now and not Jiraiya. We saw this with the whole "_he's not quite at the level of the Fourth yet_!", and the shtick with Naruto dodging Ay's maximum-speed punch like Minato did. 

Bijū Mode and Bijū Sage Mode was Naruto's aid in surpassing his next benchmark: Hashirama.


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## Saru (Apr 12, 2016)

The difference is that Itachi was jobbing when he lost, and then he came back to show more of his true strength, even outperforming EMS Sasuke in the battle with Kabuto. That makes the parallel crumble IMO.

And then the crow was a thing. I'm not about to get into the whole debate about Itachi's inability to use the crow; it's just another thing in Itachi's arsenal.

The true parallel with Naruto and Jiraiya was Sasuke and Orochimaru.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 12, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> In battling Pain, Naruto's benchmark was surpassing Jiraiya, and in battling the Five Kage, Sasuke's benchmark was surpassing Itachi. I also think the constant comparisons between Naruto/Jiraiya and Sasuke/Itachi - like _"looks like Naruto has surpassed those who came before him"_, and "_He's even better at Amaterasu than Itachi!_" also further cemented that Kishimoto intended for Naruto/Sasuke to exceed them in their 'showcase' arcs, in which case, Invasion of Pain and Kage Summit.


Kishimoto showed Minato alongside Jiraiya when hyping Naruto's growth. And Sasuke was bashed for not being as good as Itachi by Danzo.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 12, 2016)

Saru said:


> The difference is that Itachi was jobbing when he lost, and then he came back to show more of his true strength, even outperforming EMS Sasuke in the battle with Kabuto. That makes the parallel crumble a bit.



Itachi losing to Sasuke isn't when the latter surpassed him, not at all. Kishimoto made it _very_ apparent to us that Sasuke still had a ways to go before exceeding his brother, by telling us "_he could've killed you at any time_" and such.

Sasuke surpassed his brother with the Mangekyō Sharingan.

Now, _Edo Tensei_ Itachi is another story altogether. He gains a huge amount of benefits like unlimited chakra/stamina that he would've never had when alive, and that's why Sasuke needed the Eternal Mangekyō to surpass *that* Itachi.


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## Saru (Apr 12, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Itachi losing to Sasuke isn't when the latter surpassed him, not at all. Kishimoto made it _very_ apparent to us that Sasuke still had a ways to go before exceeding his brother, by telling us "_he could've killed you at any time_" and such.
> 
> Sasuke surpassed his brother with the Mangekyō Sharingan.
> 
> Now, _Edo Tensei_ Itachi is another story altogether. He gains a huge amount of benefits like unlimited chakra/stamina that he would've never had when alive, and that's why Sasuke needed the Eternal Mangekyō to surpass *that* Itachi.




Yeah, I don't think an "Edo Itachi" parallel was intended. It was just Itachi.​


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 12, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Kishimoto showed Minato alongside Jiraiya when hyping Naruto's growth. And Sasuke was bashed for not being as good as Itachi by Danzo.



Minato's parallel with Kyūbi Chakra Mode later contradicts Minato's presence in that hyping panel, I think. Jiraiya, however, was never brought up as a benchmark for Naruto again, so it's fair to assume Naruto indeed surpassed him in the Pain Arc.

Sasuke was bashed for not being good as Itachi _while still developing his Mangekyō Sharingan_. You have to remember, Sasuke hadn't even developed his muscled Susano'o, let alone his Final Susano'o, when Danzo made that statement; his powers were still fresh and growing. And that declaration was made only in regards to genjutsu prowess anyhow.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 12, 2016)

Saru said:


> Yeah, I don't think there was an "Edo Itachi" parallel intended. It was just Itachi.​



It's fine if you think that. I think Edo Tensei provides a huge power boost that very well differentiates a character's strength portrayal. Edo Minato very clearly isn't the same as him alive, just as Edo Madara very clearly isn't the same as him alive (Kabuto even makes a point about this, and Madara does later *over and over* when being resurrected by Obito).

Kishimoto is damn near on-the-nose about Edo Tensei characters being far more powerful/weaker than their original states.


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## Saru (Apr 12, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> It's fine if you think that. I think Edo Tensei provides a huge power boost that very well differentiates a character's strength portrayal. Edo Minato very clearly isn't the same as him alive, just as Edo Madara very clearly isn't the same as him alive (Kabuto even makes a point about this, and Madara does later *over and over* when being resurrected by Obito).
> 
> Kishimoto is damn near on-the-nose about Edo Tensei characters being far more powerful/weaker than their original states.




A parallel has precedent before it's superseded by a new one. "Edo Itachi" and Sasuke had no sort of precedent. I don't think that Itachi benefited from Edo Tensei enough to be significantly stronger than his Part I self would have either.

Some of the things people commonly cite that Edo Itachi has over Living Itachi:

*No drawbacks from the Mangekyou:* this is a good one, but I don't think that Edo Itachi was portrayed as significantly stronger without those drawbacks. Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Susano'o, and Totsuka no Tsurugi are one-shot techniques; they're not intended to be used or needed multiple times, especially when in the hands of someone as clever as Itachi. Itachi was shown running after using Amaterasu in Part I, and he used the Mangekyou several times in one day with only panting, so I think that some people overstate the drawbacks of the Mangekyou in regards to that version of Itachi.
*Regeneration:* this is an obvious benefit of Edo Tensei. However, at no point did Itachi's regeneration allow him to accomplish more than he could have on his own. When Kabuto took Itachi out the first time, it was because Itachi was trying to protect Sasuke. When Kabuto took Itachi out the second time, _he still needed Sasuke_ to prevent Kabuto from rewriting the Fuda in his brain. Edo Itachi couldn't take down Kabuto on his own (or at least he couldn't set up Izanami) and nor could Living Itachi.
*Infinitely replenishing chakra:* None of the Edo Tensei were able to benefit from this significantly from what I could tell, and Gengetsu in fact still showed signs of exhaustion after using Jouki Boi, and was still visibly exhausted afterwards. The rate at which chakra replenishes for Edo Tensei seems to be very slow. I think that Living Itachi would be able to replicate all of the same feats as Edo Itachi in each battle he had provided that he didn't take his opponents on in a gauntlet-like fashion the same way that Edo Itachi did.

Anything that Edo Itachi could do on his own, Living Itachi (in health closer to Part I than Part II) would be capable of doing on his own (more or less) IMO.

If Kishimoto really wanted there to be an "Edo Itachi" parallel, I think it would have been far more obvious and had more buildup.​


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## Alex Payne (Apr 12, 2016)

The main beef I have with Sick Itachi = SM Jiraiya is that we never saw Sick Itachi fighting while trying his best to win. He staged the whole fight with Sasuke. Pulled his punches until the end. And in process brushed aside Jiraiya's peer/rival like nothing. While Jiraiya got an excellent fight(one of the best in the whole manga) where he tried his best and ended up using a powerful jutsu he didn't even know he had in his "arsenal". You could rank Sick Itachi's performance vs Sasuke on par or even slightly below SM Jiraiya's vs Pain. But it wasn't Itachi fighting seriously. And we simply can't properly evaluate that Itachi's serious performance. Marginally better? A good deal better? Hell, even Edo Itachi wasn't given a proper fight where he was allowed to simply go all out one-on-one. Probably one of the reasons why Itachi is such a polarizing character. Enough info for a good debate(and more than enough for a bad one). But not enough for a proper evaluation. <Itachi's quote about perception>


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 12, 2016)

I'll get back to you guys in a bit, gotta study now, lol.


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## Icegaze (Apr 12, 2016)

We also never saw jiriaya true abilities 

due to either retcon or saving stuff for Naruto

with the retcon abilities post jiriaya vs pain

jiriaya should have very easily taken out the first 3 paths of pain. his difficulty in doing this is perhaps why people underestimate him

his retcon is no different from oro apparent use of senjutsu or minato's for that matter or gamakichi...

the last one is the funiest, so the kid can use senjutsu but bunta never thought of using that when fighting shukaku in part 1


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## ImSerious (Apr 12, 2016)

I've never seen much of a difference between living Itachi and Edo Itachi. Only in a prolonged fight do i see Edo making a big difference, but other than that anything Edo Itachi can do living Itachi can do as well.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 12, 2016)

The answer to this thread is minato.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 12, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> itachi isn't anywhere close to minato's general level. i advice you to let that delusional thought go.



If you compare their _skills_ and _hypers_ side by side, Itachi's superior.

*Hypers*

_Hashirama
Hiruzen
Obito
Zetsu
Kabuto
Orochimaru
Sasuke
Shikaku _

*vs*

_Jiraiya
A
Kakashi_

It's pretty obvious which side is (much) more knowledgeable _and_ less biased. Minato's entire hype-squad is made up of his teacher, student, and rival. Minato also received a lot of anti-hype from Obito and Tobirama. 

The author just didn't treat him as well as Itachi, plain and simple. _Especially_ at the end when he started having Hiruzen saying a 7-year-old Itachi was Hokage-smart and Hashirama saying Itachi put him to shame.

*Skill*

Minato skill-wise is only superior in sealing, but Itachi's  at it too. Itachi has better feats and hype in ninjutsu execution skill, genjutsu skill, taijutsu skill, intellect, etc. Itachi's just the more skilled shinobi. 

Minato's really only superior in _genetic/body_ areas i.e. a super body capable of Sage Mode (Minato can't control the chakra well though) and freak genetic reflexes. And teachers, taking jutsu from Jiraiya, Tobirama, and Kushina.


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## Android (Apr 12, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> If you compare their _skills_ and _hypers_ side by side, Itachi's superior.
> 
> *Hypers*
> 
> ...



aren't you the cat who said in another thread , that hype doesn't matter more than feats ?


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## Complete_Ownage (Apr 12, 2016)

Minato has the superior portrayal in the manga by far

Itachi:
Killed his clan - with the help of Tobi
Defeated orochimaru - Still don't know the circumstances on the first encounter but still superior then orochimaru
Defeated hebi Sasuke - Not that impressive when hebi sasuke is not that powerful(low kage level)
Defeated Nagato - With the help of two perfect Jins
Defeated Kabuto - With the help of Edo tensei body and EMS Sasuke
Went around capturing Bijuu

Minato:
Basically ended a war on his own
Protected the leaf village and stopped Obito - With the help of Kushina
Defeated Ay
Saved shinobi alliance numerous times - with help and without
Helped defeat Juubi Jins - Granted with tons of help 

Minato has simply fought superior opponents and portrayed to be in a different class. Both shinobi has had support in each of their battles hence the entire manga being based on team work. I will go with feats over hype any day of the week

Itachi's character still shits all over Minatos by a ton


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 12, 2016)

Minato's portrayal is slightly above Itachi's, while Jiraiya's is below.


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## Matty (Apr 12, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I think they're on the same level. I think sick Itachi and Sage Jiraiya were the benchmarks for Sasuke to surpass in the Kage Summit Arc and Naruto to surpass in the Pain Arc respectively.



Fair point. But I don't consider Sick itachi to be Minatos level. So I guess he's closer to Jiraiya. I'm kind of convoluting this thing too much but if I had to rank:

Edo Itachi = Minato > SM Jiraiya > Sick Itachi > Base Jiraiya

But I do agree with the benchmark comment


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 12, 2016)

Other people hyped Minato besides Jiraiya, Ei, and Kakashi. Tobirama, Hiruzen, Yamato, Kurama, and Obito for example.


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## ImSerious (Apr 12, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> If you compare their _skills_ and _hypers_ side by side, Itachi's superior.
> 
> *Hypers*
> 
> ...


I too, enjoy having Itachi's dick in my mouth. What's your point?



> *Skill*
> 
> Minato skill-wise is only superior in sealing, but Itachi's  at it too. Itachi has better feats and hype in ninjutsu execution skill, genjutsu skill, taijutsu skill, intellect, etc. Itachi's just the more skilled shinobi.
> 
> Minato's really only superior in _genetic/body_ areas i.e. a super body capable of Sage Mode (Minato can't control the chakra well though) and freak genetic reflexes. And teachers, taking jutsu from Jiraiya, Tobirama, and Kushina.


You forgot 1 thing. Speed, the name of the game.

Minato fucks all, because speed fucks all. You can't hit him, he can hit you, and he will fuck you.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Apr 12, 2016)

SM Jiraiya will always be above Itachi.


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## Matty (Apr 12, 2016)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> SM Jiraiya will always be above Itachi.



Sick Itachi*


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 12, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> The main beef I have with Sick Itachi = SM Jiraiya is that we never saw Sick Itachi fighting while trying his best to win. He staged the whole fight with Sasuke. Pulled his punches until the end. And in process brushed aside Jiraiya's peer/rival like nothing. While Jiraiya got an excellent fight(one of the best in the whole manga) where he tried his best and ended up using a powerful jutsu he didn't even know he had in his "arsenal". You could rank Sick Itachi's performance vs Sasuke on par or even slightly below SM Jiraiya's vs Pain. But it wasn't Itachi fighting seriously. And we simply can't properly evaluate that Itachi's serious performance. Marginally better? A good deal better? Hell, even Edo Itachi wasn't given a proper fight where he was allowed to simply go all out one-on-one. Probably one of the reasons why Itachi is such a polarizing character. Enough info for a good debate(and more than enough for a bad one). But not enough for a proper evaluation. <Itachi's quote about perception>




I think the climax of Sasuke vs Itachi ; Kirin, Yamata and Susano'O was waaaaay above anything happened during the Jiriaya vs 3 paths of Pain, power, hype and level-wise.

So I don't see how it is possible to evaluate Itachi's performance below Jiraiya's.

Itachi vs Sasuke fight was hyped beyond Jiraiya vs Pain too. Hell, Zetsu prefered it over Naruto vs Pain. Granted, Kishimoto knew they wouldn't happen simultaneously but he still made Zetsu say it.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 12, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> If you compare their _skills_ and _hypers_ side by side, Itachi's superior.
> 
> *Hypers*
> 
> ...



So you just happened to forget that Tsunade, Obito, KB, and Tobirama hyped Minato as well? In addition, Kishimoto even hyped Minato stating he had "unparalleled strength" on one of the cover pages. Just looking at it from a quality vs quantity prospective, Minato has far more hype and had far less screen time than Itachi 

I'm the original Itachi stan on NF, and even I can see the fanboyism in your post.


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 12, 2016)

On topic: Itachi is closer to Jiraiya than he is Minato, in my eyes at least.


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 12, 2016)

Okay if you wanna be specific, yes; that exact scene never appeared in anything made by Kishi. I was referring more to the premise of it happening, not being unlikely/ impossible or a fanfic only notion. Like for instance; you could say it's fanfiction that Minato possesses the ability to punch people since it's never been shown, but it would be completely logical to say he can and that he's done it before.

That's enough pairing related talk for me to last a lifetime though, I think it's safe to say we both got our points across.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 12, 2016)

Elite Uchiha said:


> So you just happened to forget that Tsunade



She said Minato was talented, unlike Naruto. Not really hype.



Elite Uchiha said:


> Obito



"Deserving of the Hokage title." Not really hype.



Elite Uchiha said:


> KB



No that was  that Bee hyped.



Elite Uchiha said:


> and Tobirama hyped Minato as well?



"Your shunshin's better than mine." Not really hype. 



Elite Uchiha said:


> In addition, Kishimoto even hyped Minato stating he had "unparalleled strength" on one of the cover pages.



As you've been repeatedly told, those aren't canon or from Kishi.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 12, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Itachi:
> Killed his clan - with the help of Tobi *stated to prevent world war*
> Defeated orochimaru - Still don't know the circumstances on the first encounter but still superior then orochimaru *enough for Orochimaru to rather invade Konoha than fight Itachi.*
> Defeated hebi Sasuke - Not that impressive when hebi sasuke is not that powerful(low kage level) *Hebi Sasuke holding back beat Deidara, who beat Gaara in the desert while holding back, and Gaara in the desert certainly isn't Low Kage level. So "Low Kage" isn't adding up.*
> ...



Fixed some for you.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 13, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> She said Minato was talented, unlike Naruto. Not really hype.



Of course, anyone hyping Minato isn't really hype. 



> "Deserving of the Hokage title." Not really hype.



He hyped his speed and abilities. Re-read. And if being deserving of the Hokage title puts you in the league of Prime Hashirama, who Obito had full knowledge on. Essentially, he is comparing Minato's power to Prime Hashirama 



> No that was  that Bee hyped.



KB hyped Minato's speed and Minato in general by literally sweating bricks when Minato was mentioned. 



> "Your shunshin's better than mine." Not really hype.



Again, you have selective memory. Tobirama not only complimented on his speed and Hirashin, but his quick thinking. 



> ]As you've been repeatedly told, those aren't canon or from Kishi.



Thanks for the evidence of Kishimoto stating those aren't canon (especially since its the manga hurr durr). Concession accepted. 


Ultimately, I can go through most of Itachi's hype and do exactly what you just did to me. "That's not really hype". Minato > Itachi in every aspect. Move on and accept it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 13, 2016)

Jiraiya. Even Itachi's own admission puts him at Jiraiya's equal or slight inferior. Minato is on a completely other level, and this has been said several times over the course of the story (being the biggest benchmark for Naruto other than Hashirama himself, with Kakashi, who had fought Itachi...saying Naruto is the _only_ Shinobi who could surpass Minato). 

How did Itachi and Minato become 'parallels' is weird when Itachi and Jiraiya were parallels to each other. They died the same exact arc and gave their respective powers (MS and SM) to Sasuke and Naruto respectively following that arc.


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

I love how every time parallels with Jiraiya are mentioned, Orochimaru is completely ignored--both in terms of his parallel with Jiraiya and his swift defeat by deathbed Itachi.

Shippuden Sasuke was always stronger than Naruto until the Pain Arc too, so Jiraiya and Itachi "dying at the same time" doesn't really mean anything. Sasuke and Naruto weren't equals before their deaths to begin with. The manga and the Databook both support this notion.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 13, 2016)

Itachi is a match for Minato; both are on a higher level than Jiraiya.

If we're talking about Edo Minato, then Itachi (living or Edo) is closer to Jiraiya...but only in relative terms, because neither would offer him a close fight.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> I love how every time parallels with Jiraiya are mentioned, Orochimaru is completely ignored--both in terms of his parallel with Jiraiya and his swift defeat by deathbed Itachi.


Since Orochimaru and Jiraiya are two entirely different fighters, and that Itachi himself puts himself on Jiraiya's level and not over it? 

Itachi 'defeated' an arrogant Orochimaru who LET HIMSELF BE STABBED instead of dodging.


> Shippuden Sasuke was always stronger than Naruto until the Pain Arc too, so Jiraiya and Itachi "dying at the same time" doesn't really mean anything. Sasuke and Naruto weren't equals before their deaths to begin with. The manga and the Databook both support this notion.


Jiraiya and Itachi were equals, Itachi himself says it. They passed their powers to Naruto and Sasuke the exact same arc. Naruto got Sage Mode after Jiraiya died, Sasuke got the Mangekyo Sharingan. It was clear from Kishimoto's intention that Jiraiya and Itachi were near equals in power. Itachi hyper fans act like this is an insult since they have such a high opinion of Itachi.

Finally, when has the story ever said that Minato is Itachi's equal? When has the story put Itachi on Minato's level. Where, point it out? Cite the chapter and page!


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since Orochimaru and Jiraiya are two entirely different fighters, and that Itachi himself puts himself on Jiraiya's level and not over it?




I'm pretty sure that Itachi was talking about Naruto/Kurama.



> Itachi 'defeated' an arrogant Orochimaru who LET HIMSELF BE STABBED instead of dodging.




Orochimaru didn't let himself be stabbed.

That's why there was a question mark. Orochimaru didn't know what the fuck had just happened.



> Jiraiya and Itachi were equals, Itachi himself says it. They passed their powers to Naruto and Sasuke the exact same arc. Naruto got Sage Mode after Jiraiya died, Sasuke got the Mangekyo Sharingan. It was clear from Kishimoto's intention that Jiraiya and Itachi were near equals in power. Itachi hyper fans act like this is an insult since they have such a high opinion of Itachi.




Well, IDK why people act the way they do, but there are a lot of people--non-Itachi fans included--who think that Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya. I don't think these people read the manga wrong. It was in fact, not Kishimoto's intention to portray Itachi and Jiraiya as equals IMO. I think that stems partially from people thinking that Sasuke and Naruto were equals before the Pain Arc (they weren't) and thinking that Naruto and Sasuke's benchmarks were equal throughout the manga. Minato and Itachi establish a better parallel than Jiraiya and Itachi as well.



> Finally, when has the story ever said that Minato is Itachi's equal? When has the story put Itachi on Minato's level. Where, point it out? Cite the chapter and page!




It didn't. I never suggested as much. They have comparable feats and hype, though.​


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> I'm pretty sure that Itachi was talking about Naruto/Kurama.


No. Itachi was referring explicitly to Jiraiya. He even had to lure Jiraiya away so he wouldn't have to fight him.





> Orochimaru didn't let himself be stabbed.
> 
> That's why there was a question mark. Orochimaru didn't know what the fuck had just happened.


Orochimaru did let himself be stabbed. He even laughed at Itachi for thinking a simple stab was enough to kill him. He let himself be stabbed not knowing that Itachi was using Totsuka.





> Well, IDK why people act the way they do, but there are a lot of people--non-Itachi fans included--who think that Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya. I don't think these people read the manga wrong. It was in fact, not Kishimoto's intention to portray Itachi and Jiraiya as equals IMO. I think that stems partially from people thinking that Sasuke and Naruto were equals before the Pain Arc (they weren't) and thinking that Naruto and Sasuke's benchmarks were equal throughout the manga. Minato and Itachi establish a better parallel than Jiraiya and Itachi as well.


Many non-Itachi fans have been mislead by the Itachi hyperfans. How wasn't it Kishimoto's intention to put Jiraiya and Itachi as equals when he had them die the exact same arc, pass their powers to Naruto and Sasuke, and have Itachi continuously have a high opinion of Jiraiya? Even the second databook, written by Kishimoto, saying that Jiraiya can face Itachi and Kisame at the same time.





> It didn't. I never suggested as much. They have comparable feats and hype, though.


...except they don't. Minato has much better feats and hype. Minato defeated Obito and figured out the secrets to his technique _in seconds and countered them_, while Itachi never was able to. Minato was thought to be _unsurpassable_ by the likes of A the Raikage. Minato was said to be the most gifted and strongest shinobi in generations. 

Itachi's feats and hype pale in comparison.


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No. Itachi was referring explicitly to Jiraiya. He even had to lure Jiraiya away so he wouldn't have to fight him.




The manga doesn't exactly agree with you. Itachi was referring to Naruto/Kurama just based on his conversation with Kisame. On the page just before Itachi made the statement about possibly only being able to draw his opponent, KN0 Naruto was shown. I connected the dots.




> Orochimaru did let himself be stabbed. He even laughed at Itachi for thinking a simple stab was enough to kill him. He let himself be stabbed not knowing that Itachi was using Totsuka.




Mhm. You ignored my point.





> Many non-Itachi fans have been mislead by the Itachi hyperfans. How wasn't it Kishimoto's intention to put Jiraiya and Itachi as equals when he had them die the exact same arc, pass their powers to Naruto and Sasuke, and have Itachi continuously have a high opinion of Itachi? Even the second databook, written by Kishimoto, saying that Jiraiya can face Itachi and Kisame at the same time.




The Databook doesn't actually say that. You're just repeating points I've already addressed; I don't feel like talking in circles.




> ...except they don't. Minato has much better feats and hype. Minato defeated Obito and figured out the secrets to his technique _in seconds and countered them_, while Itachi never was able to. Minato was thought to be _unsurpassable_ by the likes of A the Raikage. Minato was said to be the most gifted and strongest shinobi in generations.




Itachi was said to be invincible.​


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> The manga doesn't exactly agree with you. Itachi was referring to Naruto/Kurama just based on his conversation with Kisame. On the page just before Itachi made the statement about possibly only being able to draw with Kurama, KN0 Naruto was shown. I connected the dots.


Saru, that is a flat out _lie_. The page was even posted a while back, Kisame and Itachi were referring explicitly about Jiraiya. NOT Naruto. Not Kurama. And we have Itachi using Jiraiya's weakness (WOMEN) to lure him away from Naruto!




> Mhm. You ignored my point.


And you ignored mine.







> The Databook doesn't actually say that. You're just repeating points I've already addressed; I don't feel like talking in circles.


It does. Jiraiya's page says so. Databook 2.






> Itachi was said to be invincible.


PFFTTTTT HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!

You're seriously taking that at face value?! Itachi isn't invincible! Even when the Yata Mirror was introduced, it had it after it failed to block Kirin! 

Itachi's hype and portrayal are woefully below Minato to the point of hilarity.

So what, you think Itachi, because he's 'invincible' could be Hashirama? Or how about the Juubi Jins? EOS Naruto and Sasuke?


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Saru, that is a flat out _lie_. The page was even posted a while back, Kisame and Itachi were referring explicitly about Jiraiya. NOT Naruto. Not Kurama. And we have Itachi using Jiraiya's weakness (WOMEN) to lure him away from Naruto!




I read the manga too. Jiraiya was only mentioned after Naruto/Kurama.




> PFFTTTTT HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!
> 
> You're seriously taking that at face value?! Itachi isn't invincible! Even when the Yata Mirror was introduced, it had it after it failed to block Kirin!
> 
> ...




I just stated a fact. 

But we can agree to disagree, because neither one of us are budging on this topic, and I don't feel like we'd get anywhere, so...​


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> I read the manga too. Jiraiya was only mentioned after Naruto/Kurama.


laughed at Itachi for thinking a simple stab was enough to kill him.

No, Naruto/Kurama wasn't in the conversation about Jiraiya, who is protecting Naruto, at all. Kisame and Itachi were explicitly referring to Jiraiya. 




> I just stated a fact.
> 
> But we can agree to disagree, because neither one of us are budging on this topic, and I don't feel like we'd get anywhere, so..


No, what you stated is a _hyperbole_.


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> laughed at Itachi for thinking a simple stab was enough to kill him.
> 
> No, Naruto/Kurama wasn't in the conversation about Jiraiya, who is protecting Naruto, at all. Kisame and Itachi were explicitly referring to Jiraiya.




They were talking about Naruto up until the point where JIraiya was mentioned.





> No, what you stated is a _hyperbole_.






			
				Me said:
			
		

> Itachi was said to be invincible.




That is a fact, my friend.​


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> They were talking about Naruto up until the point where JIraiya was mentioned.


No, Sasuke was talking about Naruto. All the referred to about Naruto was on the luck they had seeing him at Ichiraku.










> That is a fact, my friend.


Which is, the fact that it is a hyperbole, or that Itachi is 'invincible'?


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:
			
		

> Which is, the fact that it is a hyperbole, or that Itachi is 'invincible'?




Neither. Itachi was said to be invincible.​


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2016)

I don't recall minato learning any Jutsu from Jiraiya specifically 

Though he is a really good copy cat 

See BD decides to create rasengan , takes some uzumaki seals , basically steals hirashin and to add to things decides to also take tobirama clone Jutsu 

I'll say he is an addition of characters really good in their field. Though I can't see how anyone would say itachi is above or comparable 

Considering for itachi to fight at his level he is half killing himself 

While minato base level and how he always fights already puts him at high kage level with no stamina consequence 

Itachi feels more like a Jiraiya to me . Pros and cons to achieve his higher battle form

Minato got none hence why he is above


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## Sapherosth (Apr 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I don't recall minato learning any Jutsu from Jiraiya specifically
> 
> Though he is a really good copy cat
> 
> ...






That logic doesn't really work considering characters like Tsunade is also "Killing herself" through high-tier battles from using Byakugo, yet NO ONE, bats an eye at all.

Kakashi also go through the same fate, yet NO ONE bats an eye.

For some reason, when it comes to Itachi, he's just going to fall and die after using 1 jutsu.


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## Matty (Apr 13, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> That logic doesn't really work considering characters like Tsunade is also "Killing herself" through high-tier battles from using Byakugo, yet NO ONE, bats an eye at all.
> 
> Kakashi also go through the same fate, yet NO ONE bats an eye.
> 
> For some reason, when it comes to Itachi, he's just going to fall and die after using 1 jutsu.



Because sick itachi is literally sick and dying. His techs consistently shorten his lifespan. We take it into consideration with Gai and 8th gate. Besides, isn't Byakugou just stored chakra? How is it killing her?


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## Platypus (Apr 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> They were talking about Naruto up until the point where JIraiya was mentioned.​



From what I remember, translators said that the raw is ambiguous at best and people (on Japanese forums) generally prefer to go with Jiraiya instead of Naruto being the subject in the first few sentences, because the former makes more sense in context. There was a megathread about this once.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> That logic doesn't really work considering characters like Tsunade is also "Killing herself" through high-tier battles from using Byakugo, yet NO ONE, bats an eye at all.
> 
> Kakashi also go through the same fate, yet NO ONE bats an eye.
> 
> For some reason, when it comes to Itachi, he's just going to fall and die after using 1 jutsu.



Tsunade is shortening her life span. However can fight for hours in that form. Itachi caps at a few minutes , not even slightly comparable 

And yes Kakashi is also in the Same fate and I put him below minato 

Though Kakashi does have better stamina than itachi 

Not about falling and dying here . Minato can fight a war using the same tactic without tiring . Itachi simply can't operate at his higher levels without consequence 

Quite simple really 

Minato vs 50 asuma 1 shots them using the same shit . Itachi ain't beating 50 asuma without relying on MS which ain't good for him in the short run


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2016)

Who cares what Itachi said while under doulbe cover? Maybe fans should read the context of a scene and the underlying things beseeching the scene. Itachi was clearly passive as hell the whole time. Compare his Edo "autopilot" fighting to his fighting vs Kurenai and the group. He was much more lackadaisical. Then we have the first hints of Itachi not being all he seems on the cover. Kakashi and Kisame questioning as to why Kakashi didn't die put even more suspect on the situation. Then we have Kurenai and Asuma being told by Itachi he doesn't wanna kill them. Sounds weird for someone who's a supoossed family slaying mercenary. So what am I getting at?

Itachi didn't wanna fucking fight Jiraiya. A.) It's stupid because Jiraiya is indeed strong and experienced (so Itachi a double spy would avoid both needlessly damaging himself and Konoha's firepower. B.) Explain to me in your head how you perceive Itachi + Kisame vs Jiraiya going down in your head in the middle of a village or even on the outskirts  . So once again, Itachi as in reality, being someone who cares about people in general especially from the land of fire/Konoha would not want to cause such collateral damage.

Getting Kisame to think Jiraiya was such a big threat, and that he was tired (which is bull if we look at his dying feats) was Itachi's way of weaseling (pun intended) his way out of doing his "job" for akatsuki while also checking up on Sasuke (to make sure Danzo kept his word per databook), and keeping Konoha relatively safe (he had to nigh waste Kakashi to keep his intent looking for real).

As for who Itachi is closer to the answer is Minato. Healthy/Sick Itachi are generally on par with Minato (Minato has edge vs Sick and it'a dead equal tie if healthy) in base modo. Kyuubi was never really apart of his power just like Edo/Koto aren't apart of ITachi's regular arsenal. So even though Minato eclipses Edo Itachi with BM modo, non dying, no limit stamina, Itachi with essentially EMS with PS, and koto is wayyy above Jiraiya's paygrade in any form he has shown. Jiraiya really only has chances vs Itachi if he's sick and in a favorable matchup setting (both location wise and knowledge).


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## Sapherosth (Apr 13, 2016)

Matty said:


> Because sick itachi is literally sick and dying. His techs consistently shorten his lifespan. We take it into consideration with Gai and 8th gate. Besides, isn't Byakugou just stored chakra? How is it killing her?





It is just stored chakra, but every time she takes damage and heals, she's using up her life span since her technique is restoration by replenishing her cells (which are limited).

Gai with his 8 gates does not get nearly as much critique, despite its disadvantages.

Itachi's MS does not "Shorten his lifespan"... His disease was the only thing going causing him trouble. He was already past his expiration date during the last battle.  
Anyways, unless the opponent has the means to counter Tsukuyomi and Amateratsu, Itachi's "sickness" shouldn't be a problem, since the battle would have already been won. We already know for a fact that 2-3 uses of MS tech's is usable without killing Itachi. It's not like he needs anymore than that against most opponents.


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Minato vs 50 asuma 1 shots them using the same shit . Itachi ain't beating 50 asuma without relying on MS which ain't good for him in the short run



Itachi turns 50 on 1 to 26 vs 25.

Itachi is so much faster, has pre cog, genjutsu/feinting for survival and can counter all of his elemental jutsu. It turns into Kimmimaro vs KN0 Naruto army.



Matty said:


> Because sick itachi is literally sick and dying. His techs consistently shorten his lifespan. We take it into consideration with Gai and 8th gate. Besides, isn't Byakugou just stored chakra? How is it killing her?


no. Itachi was terminally ill. Which is why in part 2, strenous activity makes him cough up blood. Remember Kimmimaro? They both had similar conditions. Itachi also had MS strain which only effects sight similar to Izanagi takes an eye. MS is just more loaded. 

Sucks you can still use Susanoo while blind


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2016)

@dr white 
That's more effort than killing enemies who can't even see u. Imagine fighting a war and people don't even know what u look like . I think that > genjutsu enemies to fight themselves wouldn't you say 

Yh itachi ain't beating 50 asuma with speed when 1 asuma in cqc forced kisame into using ninjutsu . Good joke though

I had a giggle

Do u want to know whose speed hype and feats horrendously exceed itachi 's am sure u know his name 

Minato that is


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 13, 2016)

Since when can Itachi use PS?


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2016)

For me this is how I see it using numbers 

Itachi with MS maybe say he is 100. I.e his higher form of combat . Duration 10 min , consequence significant 

Itachi with Sharingan would be by my estimation say 60. Duration long term 

Minato would be closer to 85. Duration long term . 

While in SM which again he can get into very quickly . Would b 90. Short term duration consequence none 

So it depends . I'll rather fight at a slightly lower level with no risk constantly vs higher form of combat with risk 

Characters who have stall abilities would be useful against itachi however not so much against minato since he simply doesn't get tired #kevin gates


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @dr white
> That's more effort than killing enemies who can't even see u. Imagine fighting a war and people don't even know what u look like . I think that > genjutsu enemies to fight themselves wouldn't you say


Not really because Itachi can just make them fight eachother while soloing them in the midst because he is superior to most people in reactions, jutsu, speed, and has the arsenal to finish things off.

For example, Minato got Ei and Bee's back with Hirashin but he would have taken a sword to the stomach from Bee (who had little knowledge) and his kunai alone can't do anything Ei's shroud given Chidori katana bounced off.

Itachi can disable people and their shrouds by cutting off their chakra flow, he can use 3 tomoe to throw off senses and have people see false Itachi's (like Killer Bee), and he also has his bushin game.

Your original argument was that Minato is >>> Itachi in base which isn't really the case because Itachi's arsenal is also hax as hell.



> Yh itachi ain't beating 50 asuma with speed when 1 asuma in cqc forced kisame into using ninjutsu . Good joke though


The same Asuma who struggled vs Hidan? Who Kakashi could easily combat with a kunai while dodging huge AOe blast from Kakuzu?

Asuma has no genjutsu defense and is outsped horribly here. Crows, clone, genjutsu, and superior stats  sharingan should be enough. Look what Madara did to Shinobi alliance. While Itachi isn't Madara level he's is easily lol > Asuma.



> Do u want to know whose speed hype and feats horrendously exceed itachi 's am sure u know his name


Minato reacted to a man who has his CNS enhanced by electricity, while Itachi reacted to a literal Megazord lightning bolt.

Itachi reacted to no knowledge Mukai tensei.

Itachi was physically going hand to hand vs KCM Nardo, and Kenjutsu Bee, and then had the speed to get away from them from inches away while dodging. He also accomplished what Minato did to Bee using just a smokescreen cover and fireball 

So no minato in base does not horrendously outspeed Itachi outside of Hirashin which is instant. Minato is not.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Tsunade is shortening her life span. However can fight for hours in that form. Itachi caps at a few minutes , not even slightly comparable
> 
> And yes Kakashi is also in the Same fate and I put him below minato
> 
> ...





Fighting for hours would be useful, yes, but how useful would it be if your opponent can finish you in under a minute?

Kakashi does not have better stamina than Itachi. Uchiha's naturally have strong chakra.

I can see your point about Minato being able to operate at a high capacity constantly without any drawbacks, but that doesn't take away the fact that Itachi is capable of finishing his opponents just as quickly, even with its drawbacks, he would still take the win as long as he stays alive.


It's not a matter of how long you can keep your high capacity up, the only thing that matters is whether or not your high capacity is enough to finish your opponents off or not and coming out of the battle alive.


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

Platypus said:


> From what I remember, translators said that the raw is ambiguous at best and people (on Japanese forums) generally prefer to go with Jiraiya instead of Naruto being the subject in the first few sentences, because the former makes more sense in context. There was a megathread about this once.




I've heard about that. I wish I knew Japanese and had the raw scans so that I could come to a more definite conclusion. However, in spite of my lack of knowledge, I've noticed that, in _both_ the VIZ translation and the fanslations, the subject of Itachi and Kisame's conversation remained the same (i.e. the ambiguous "he" or "him" rather than "Jiraiya").


*Spoiler*: _Fanslation_ 










In the fanslation that SSM12 posted (which is honestly terrible, but serves to prove my point, nonetheless), they refer to [whoever they were referring to] as "he" or "him."

The official translation makes the exact same translation choice. Now, if they wanted to, they could have easily made it more clear who they were referring to by using Jiraiya's name, but they didn't--not until after they seemingly switched subjects. 



> *Kisame:* "It was great finally finding *him* at the ramen shop, but... "
> 
> The logic being that if Kisame was talking about Jiraiya in regards to strength, he would have stated:
> 
> ...




A conversation about Naruto/Kurama not only makes far more sense in the context of the manga, it goes hand in hand with the previous page spread.

So, given the fact that both the fanslations and the official translation made the same decision upon translating the scan, I believe that Itachi and Kisame's conversation can only be deciphered with manga context (or reader bias) and *not* through mere word/grammatical context. Like I said, I don't know Japanese, and I don't have the raw scans, but I think the fact that numerous translations (including the official one) translated the statement the same way suggests that there is not a more "grammatically accurate" to interpret who Itachi and Kisame were referring to. Also, no matter how you twist it, "him" will never translate to "Jiraiya," if that makes sense. I don't know Japanese, but I do have enough common sense to know that much  I think that the statement was intentionally ambiguous and the readers were meant to put two and two together with the preceding page spread.

That entire _volume_ was focused on Naruto and the "massive power" that Sasuke was referring to, so to me it seems plainly obvious that Itachi and Kisame were referring to Naruto's power, not Jiraiya. That was, like, the entire point of that volume: Naruto has a hidden power inside of him that Akatsuki covets.​


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2016)

> Dr. White said:
> 
> 
> > Not really because Itachi can just make them fight eachother while soloing them in the midst because he is superior to most people in reactions, jutsu, speed, and has the arsenal to finish things off.
> ...


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Fighting for hours would be useful, yes, but how useful would it be if your opponent can finish you in under a minute?
> 
> Kakashi does not have better stamina than Itachi. Uchiha's naturally have strong chakra.
> 
> ...



there is no single enemy itachi can finish in 1 minute that minato cant do the same faster. 

kakashi does have better stamina than itachi. check Db stats if u must or feats

glad u see my point. but how can u be on my level if I can finish an opponent as quick as u can with no consequence while for u to do the same u suffer side effects?

it is a matter of how long u can keep fighting at a certain level. 

see danzo vs sasuke. do u think minato would have had as much difficulty, he would have killed danzo in sasuke situation without even getting tired and ready to fight the next battle


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2016)

for some explanation I would put MS itachi at say a figurative 100 since he was hyped to be invisible while using Susanoo for example while I previously claimed his non Ms level would be at 60

same way Base jiriaya would be at about the same 60 while in SM closer to 90 with no drawbacks once said mode is achieved

ill also put the likes of gengetsu similar to say 60 in base and while in JB closer to 80. I don't mind stacking them up with numbers, anyone got a decent enough system to use?


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## Sapherosth (Apr 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> there is no single enemy itachi can finish in 1 minute that minato cant do the same faster.
> 
> kakashi does have better stamina than itachi. check Db stats if u must or feats
> 
> ...





Well.....Orochimaru?  


Their feats are comparable at best, plus we've seen MANY inconsistencies with the Databook stats. They are not meant to be taken literally. I mean, in part 1 Kakashi was literally out of chakra performing mediocre jutsu's....and suddenly, 2 years later he's now gained 2 or 3 times the amount of chakra? He's also at his "Prime" if you would call it, so his natural chakra wouldn't just increase that much unlike Sasuke and Naruto who are still growing.    

Common sense, logic and manga facts > Inconsistent databook stats any day of the week.

So your whole argument here is that Minato can finish opponents without any drawbacks, which is why he's more powerful?


Like I've said before, stamina only comes into play when the two opponents are equal or if they cannot harm each other. 

Danzo vs Minato?   I think you're severely underestimating Danzo here. The only reason Sasuke was so tired was because he had to keep up the pressure on Danzo non-stop while defending against his attacks.

Minato can only use his Hirashin tactics once or twice and Danzo will see through how it works and avoid all the kunai's and markings and form a counter. I mean, even the 4th Raikage knew what to do after seeing Minato's Hirashin once. Danzo will be seeing it MANY times over. It's not a stretch at all that Danzo will be able to use his time being invincible with Izanagi to defeat Minato.


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> but they will still see itachi therefore its slower than them being killed and not even knowing who killed them. which is actually insane when u think about it.


They see Minato they are just too slow to do anything about it.

It's better if like vs Naruto you can just have the enemy seeing a completely oppiste reality and then slay them. We saw this vs higher level opponents than fodder ala Naruto thrice, Killer Bee, etc.



> bad example there bud
> 
> shown from feats and statements. itachi cant do nearly as good without using MS. sasuke uses MS can barely keep track, 5 madara's weren't doing much better either


Itachi kept pace wit Bee's dance with 3 tomoe. sasuke could physically react to V1 and land a hit on him. MS Sasuke feat of reacting to Kirin > Sasuke's dodging V2 Ei

Let's not forget Itachi soloing Orochimaru with a glance...



> itachi would need to pin  A down to genjutsu him. so itachi with just sharingan in that situation would have simply died


Not at all. Ei is still vulnerable to being feinted and hit with Shinkarasu or ephemeral. 




> would need to follow said person in the shroud movement, which again from feats and manga statements is unlikely


Not at all. MS Sasuke was using 3 tomoe vs Ei which proves it isn't far below there MS reactions if a difference exist at all.

So Itachi reacting to Kirin, Bee, and KCM Narod/Bee at once is very good speed portrayal.





> my argument still stands. itachi in base sole thing people mention is genjutsu
> 
> looking at feet is a hyped method, hidden mist is another method, super speed is another method, fighting blind is another method. all these methods were mentioned and shown to simply prevent genjutsu from happening.


Not at all. 3 tomoe can negate shrouds and activated jutsu on a person, and Itachi can ake the opponent never see the real him while caught in genjutsu. Besides genjutsu he has feints which work on very strong people, he has top tier jutsu execution, precog, and immense speed.

The prospect of fighters hitting Itachi before they are hit is laughable. You also neglect to mention the author highlighted intelligence Itachi has which allowed him to beat Nagato with help and outpae Kabuto despite being disadvantaged.



> yup that same asuma forced kisame back. also hidan got the advantage due to his particular technique. no one dies from a scratch, normally


asuma was legitmately being pushed back and needed shikamaru to even be a threat. Kisame would trash asuma in CqC.



> he has even got less of a defence against minato speed. itachi isn't madara level so not sure why u mention madara


Because Itachi could replicate the same thing vs the 100 fodder Minato did in the war.

Itachi's defense is never being hit via genjutsu, precog, and bushins.




> which needed sasuke hand to move first. though if we want to interpret panels the way we want. minato intercepted juudara goudama from hitting gai in his 5th step.


It doesn't matter lol. If I have a gun and tell you I'm gonna shoot you, you still have to be fast enough to dodge the bullet at close range. Itachi's susanoo didn't go up until after the lightning came down either so your point is moot.



> as will minato, however protecting sasuke would be with no consequence, he will simply hirashin them both out of there, vs getting impaled


Hirashin is better overall and can be useful in cases Itachi's arsenal can't. Never said the opposite, just that ITachi is way closer to Minato even with 3 tomoe.




> while they were both having a chat and no chakra arms used. not sure how that is supposed to hype itachi. again lets no mention speed considering minato speed>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>itachi speed by a nasty margin


In KCM maybe, but not even considering tobirama outreacted Minato in that mode and Tobirama is not >>> Itachi either. Kirin feat still stands.



> again the hype is killing enemies without them even seeing him. though about the bee thing u can again claim it how u want but considering juubito cant react to a much much slower SM Naruto hitting him after he has been marked its quite obvious that either bee already had that behind him


So what? That's just a superficial cool thing. I can easily just say Itachi's so strong he can troll enemies for hours in genjutsu and than easily dispatch of them when he wants, and that's just as OP. Point is both are efficient as hell even if Hirashin is more efficient.



> or minato had no intention of killing him


He didn't know Bee anticipated his movement so it doesn't matter.



> otherwise that would put minato hyped reflexes and physical speed well well below killer bee speed who has received no such hype about reflexes


Bee aniticpated Minato's movementand set the knife up so it's moot.
so think of it like this 



> MS obito reactions<<<minato reactions<<<killer bee reactions<<<<<<itachi reactions


Nah. Ms Obito, base Minato, an Itachi are all int he same ballpark lmao.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 13, 2016)

Wait, people consider it a feat that Itachi was able to keep up with a 1/13 clone Naruto who wasn't fighting seriously? If Itachi or any high level ninja couldn't do that, then that is embarrassing. Stop downplaying Itachi by trying to make it a feat.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> They see Minato they are just too slow to do anything about it.
> 
> It's better if like vs Naruto you can just have the enemy seeing a completely oppiste reality and then slay them. We saw this vs higher level opponents than fodder ala Naruto thrice, Killer Bee, etc.



ur claim counters the manga statement though. considering ur fine believing based on a statement itachi can control multiple enemies well same here mate

minato fought a war and people didn't even have a description on the guy. i.e no one who saw him actually lived. and those who got away didn't even see him long enough to get a image in their head. hence the blink and u would miss the whole thing when minato was up against 50 enemies



> Itachi kept pace wit Bee's dance with 3 tomoe. sasuke could physically react to V1 and land a hit on him. MS Sasuke feat of reacting to Kirin > Sasuke's dodging V2 Ei



u mean itachi and again kirin requires sasuke hand to move



> Let's not forget Itachi soloing Orochimaru with a glance...



lets not forget minato stopping kyuubi and trolling juubi BD. things itachi simply cant do



> Not at all. Ei is still vulnerable to being feinted and hit with Shinkarasu or ephemeral.



 how? if itachi eyes cant follow Ei to make contact, how is he going to point any quicker?



> Not at all. MS Sasuke was using 3 tomoe vs Ei which proves it isn't far below there MS reactions if a difference exist at all.



MS sasuke wasn't going toe to toe with Ei using V2. far from it .in fact he saw an after image of A, that how much he was lagging behind




> So Itachi reacting to Kirin, Bee, and KCM Narod/Bee at once is very good speed portrayal.



u mean sasuke hand which has to move before kirin, not like he didn't have massive warning before kirin was actually launched 



> Not at all. 3 tomoe can negate shrouds and activated jutsu on a person, and Itachi can ake the opponent never see the real him while caught in genjutsu. Besides genjutsu he has feints which work on very strong people, he has top tier jutsu execution, precog, and immense speed.




this is true and minato also has feints and conveninent thing called hirashin. 



> The prospect of fighters hitting Itachi before they are hit is laughable. You also neglect to mention the author highlighted intelligence Itachi has which allowed him to beat Nagato with help and outpae Kabuto despite being disadvantaged.



but also factual. true I didn't mention itachi intelligence that's a factor 




> asuma was legitmately being pushed back and needed shikamaru to even be a threat. Kisame would trash asuma in CqC.




yet moved out of cqc after asuma discouraged him. cant go against panels 



> Because Itachi could replicate the same thing vs the 100 fodder Minato did in the war.



yet lacks the feats and hype of being able to such 



> Itachi's defense is never being hit via genjutsu, precog, and bushins.



however being seen. all of those still slower than hirashin




> It doesn't matter lol. If I have a gun and tell you I'm gonna shoot you, you still have to be fast enough to dodge the bullet at close range. Itachi's susanoo didn't go up until after the lightning came down either so your point is moot.



but if u have armour u can wear by simple thought process then u would block the bullet based on the warning wouldn't u

also its hilarious hyping kirin. as if such a comical attack would hit minato to begin with. he utterly trolls it 



> Hirashin is better overall and can be useful in cases Itachi's arsenal can't. Never said the opposite, just that ITachi is way closer to Minato even with 3 tomoe.



well u just said hirashin is better so why the long post to come to my conclusion? 



> In KCM maybe, but not even considering tobirama outreacted Minato in that mode and Tobirama is not >>> Itachi either. Kirin feat still stands.



and kirin is trolled by hirashin users for sport with no consequence 



> So what? That's just a superficial cool thing. I can easily just say Itachi's so strong he can troll enemies for hours in genjutsu and than easily dispatch of them when he wants, and that's just as OP. Point is both are efficient as hell even if Hirashin is more efficient.



not hyped for it though. its abit bias to use manga statements to bolster itachi yet when minato get his statements and feats u want to undermine them



> He didn't know Bee anticipated his movement so it doesn't matter.



it kinda does. considering sasuke got lariated because he didn't know bee broke his genjutsu. same could easily happen to itachi



> Bee aniticpated Minato's movementand set the knife up so it's moot.
> so think of it like this



and itachi has never been aniticpated before? 



> Nah. Ms Obito, base Minato, an Itachi are all int he same ballpark lmao.




I agree with this. but minato got a technique much faster than anything in itachi arsenal and can spam it all day


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2016)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Wait, people consider it a feat that Itachi was able to keep up with a 1/13 clone Naruto who wasn't fighting seriously? If Itachi or any high level ninja couldn't do that, then that is embarrassing. Stop downplaying Itachi by trying to make it a feat.



Lmao so what? The power source is the Kyuubi...Which means each clone is atleast KAge level stamina. Physically there is a negligible difference in speed and Itachi fight the original one + Bee in close combat dodging there moves. 

so yeah it is by definition a feat, and an impressive one still


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 13, 2016)

In b4; "Itachi is both faster and more reflexive than Minato"


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## Sapherosth (Apr 13, 2016)

Well, if it adds anything to the debate, Itachi is more reflexive than EMS Sasuke and could activate Susano before him as well. So if anything, EMS Sasuke's "reactive" feats in the war, Itachi can do better.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2016)

well if It adds anything to the debate minato is more reactive than 5th gear 8th gate gai 

so I wonder who is actually quicker and more reactive 8th gate gai or EMS sasuke who hadn't even developed his EMS enough to muster PS at the time?

 imam go with gai on this one 

and yh bla bla he slowed down do u realize how much he would have had to slow down, he would have burnt from shear friction of attempting to slow down, though how does 1 slow down when air born?

also he was still fast enough to kick up air and stay in the air. regardless what ever speed he was using when people claim he slowed down was still enough for juudara to think he wont get his defence up in time


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## Sapherosth (Apr 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> well if It adds anything to the debate minato is more reactive than 5th gear 8th gate gai
> 
> so I wonder who is actually quicker and more reactive 8th gate gai or EMS sasuke who hadn't even developed his EMS enough to muster PS at the time?
> 
> ...





What?   That doesn't really make a lot of sense.  

A kunai managed to get in between Gai and Madara.......so he couldnt have been going that fast.  Secondly, from the observer's perspective looking at it from a distance, obviously they would be able to "see/react" more. That's just common sense.

Unless you get a side by side comparison like when Hashirama managed to escape rampage Juubito while Tobirama failed and when Itachi reacted to Muki tensei faster than Sasuke, then we don't really have a definite proof.


Of course, Minato doesn't really need such comparison, but it's still overstating it if you think Minato is more reactive than 8th Gated Gai when he barely dodged A.


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> ur claim counters the manga statement though. considering ur fine believing based on a statement itachi can control multiple enemies well same here mate


Not it doesn't. Minato not having a description is because he would kill small cell units and no one saw him. That's different than the feat yo are talking about where he fought 100 by himself. He didn't slay all those people before one could blink. That's called an exaggeration. A half one granted blinking would make you miss some of his movements but not the whole 100 person slaughter.

Itachi being able to control multiple people poutside of sensors range is not hyperbole. Those two head unit of the army commanders were actively hypothesizing on what could be going on.



> minato fought a war and people didn't even have a description on the guy. i.e no one who saw him actually lived. and those who got away didn't even see him long enough to get a image in their head. hence the blink and u would miss the whole thing when minato was up against 50 enemies


See above.




> u mean itachi and again kirin requires sasuke hand to move


It doesn't matter. You didn't reply to my last post on this which proves your argument wrong. If someone has a gun and shoots it at me, and I react after it's been fired, I am faster than the bullet. Itachi didn't have Susanoo up when the first flash came down meaning he pulled it up after Kirin was fired. Doesn't matter if he saw Sasuke's hand.

I could easily saw "minato's feat vs Ei isn't a good one because he reacted to Ei charging".





> lets not forget minato stopping kyuubi and trolling juubi BD. things itachi simply cant do


Lmao what? Itachi can walk up to the Kyuubi and blink at it, and have it under his spell.





> how? if itachi eyes cant follow Ei to make contact, how is he going to point any quicker?


A.) You seem to believe that Ei is always moving at V2 speeds...He was bloodlusted vs Sasuke and still went in V1 mode first and then amped up to V2 after Ama.

B.) Itachi can clone feint faster than SM Kabuto can sense, and faster than Hebi Sauce sharingan can track. 

C.) Ei was looking directly at Minato when he blitzed him. Doing so to Itachi can result in this


So Ei is gonna chase Itachi with his eyes closed?




> MS sasuke wasn't going toe to toe with Ei using V2. far from it .in fact he saw an after image of A, that how much he was lagging behind


He was able to pinpoint where Raikage was going to strike. Raikage leaving an afterimage was just that. Anyone looking would have saw that. Sauce couldn't physically react but he mentally did.

Ms Itachi is more reactive than MS Sauce though...





> u mean sasuke hand which has to move before kirin, not like he didn't have massive warning before kirin was actually launched


It doesn't matter....That is a por cop put excuse void of actually having to argue anything.






> this is true and minato also has feints and conveninent thing called hirashin.


when did minato show a viable feint game?

Once again not saying genjutsu + feints are better than Hirashin...






> yet moved out of cqc after asuma discouraged him. cant go against panels


Because Shikamaru was backing him up the whole time with Shadow stitching. Asuma didn't do anything impressive until Hidan got caught in the bind. Like at all.




> yet lacks the feats and hype of being able to such


And? Neither does Seven Gate Gai, 4th Ei, etc and they can also likely accomplish similar stuff. Killing 100 fodder jonin isn't exactly top tier status. God high tier feat.





> however being seen. all of those still slower than hirashin


Okay? Minato does not have offensive teleportation as such...He has to place his markers in strategic positions, he can still be anticipated, genjutsu is still viable as a means to throw him off, etc. He is not zipping across the field at instant speed like nightcrawler.






> but if u have armour u can wear by simple thought process then u would block the bullet based on the warning wouldn't u


Yeah but if I summoned that armor around me after the bullet was fired then it still counts as me reacting to the bullet...



> also its hilarious hyping kirin. as if such a comical attack would hit minato to begin with. he utterly trolls it


Hilarious hyping lightning speed? Lightning is by fact extremely fast, and Kirin was a bolt on steroids. You are just arguing natural fact at this point.



> well u just said hirashin is better so why the long post to come to my conclusion?


Hirashin is overall better. This thread is not about that....Minato having Hirashin does not make him leagues above 3 tomoe Itachi. 3 tomoe Itachi can solo opponents like Oro with a glance, and that makes him much closer (in combo with his plethora of other skills) to Minato than Jiraiya even with MS.




> and kirin is trolled by hirashin users for sport with no consequence


Cool story bro. That's only if the Hirashin user has reactions to deal with it. I don't care about Kirin's power, cause I'm talking about speed here. Kirin is no doubt one of the fast attacks.





> not hyped for it though. its abit bias to use manga statements to bolster itachi yet when minato get his statements and feats u want to undermine them


No you need to understand context of certain quotes. Ao and Shikaku were actively perplexed at why people were attacking their own. Ao and Shikaku both hyped Itachi capable of being able to control multiple people even outside of manga range (the latter which we saw when Itachi controlled a prostitute for hundreds of meters), the only problem being Itachi couldn't do it over freaking countries.

That's different than a fodder hyping Minato's speed (as Minato is obviously god like from his POV) and saying if you blink you'll miss it. There is a half truth to it. Blinking would make you miss alot, but once again, not the whole slaughter.





> it kinda does. considering sasuke got lariated because he didn't know bee broke his genjutsu. same could easily happen to itachi


No....Itachi alreadyd did better with 3 tomoe against Bee, than Sasuke did with MS. So let's get that out of the way. Sasuke got caught cause he got cocky and didn't know about Bjuu link. Tsukuyomi would have wasted Bee in that situation and no one bar perfect Jins is getting out of Itachi's genjutsu but not even immediately as we saw with Bee.





> and itachi has never been aniticpated before?


Did I say that? No. You're claiming Hirashin as some unbeatable, non counterable move when despite being effective, there are counters to it.






> I agree with this. but minato got a technique much faster than anything in itachi arsenal and can spam it all day


it's slightly faster than genjutsu. You literally just need to see something to be caught. So Itachi's genjutsu is the speed of superhuman perception which is amazingly fast although not instant.

Point is Itachi is closer to base minato with 3 tomoe than Jiraiya overall Imo.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2016)

> Dr. White said:
> 
> 
> > Not it doesn't. Minato not having a description is because he would kill small cell units and no one saw him. That's different than the feat yo are talking about where he fought 100 by himself. He didn't slay all those people before one could blink. That's called an exaggeration. A half one granted blinking would make you miss some of his movements but not the whole 100 person slaughter.
> ...


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## OutlawJohn (Apr 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> I've heard about that. I wish I knew Japanese and had the raw scans so that I could come to a more definite conclusion. However, in spite of my lack of knowledge, I've noticed that, in _both_ the VIZ translation and the fanslations, the subject of Itachi and Kisame's conversation remained the same (i.e. the ambiguous "he" or "him" rather than "Jiraiya").
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Fanslation_
> ...



Idk how it can reasonably be interpreted that Itachi and Kisame were talking about Naruto when they said they would "both die" and that "even reinforcements" would not change the outcome. It seems to be, getting beyond the grammatical issues, it can only make logical sense that they were speaking about Jiraiya.

1st) Why would Itachi and Kisame be sent after the Nine Tails if they thought that "even with reinforcements", they would die on the mission? That just doesn't follow any kind of logic that I can keep up with. Kisame clearly says that finding the boy in the Ramen shop was "good fortune". How is a suicide mission "good fortune"?

2nd) Kisame seems to immediately corroborate Itachi's claim by saying that both of their titles, ie. "Uchiha Clan and Seven Shinobi Swordsmen", mean nothing in the face of one of the legendary Sannin.

Did the manga later on change this dynamic? Probably. It's laughable to now to imagine that Jiraiya could kill both Itachi and Kisame + rienforcements, sans any kind of knowledge. Kishi underestimated how powerful he wanted the Akatsuki to be and that clearly shows. Whereas in Part 1 they stood somewhere between the Kage-level ninja and Elite Jounin like Kakashi and Kisame, in part 2 most of them become Kage level themselves. A clear inconsistency, but I think they were clearly referring to Jiraiya,


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 13, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Lmao so what? The power source is the Kyuubi...Which means each clone is atleast KAge level stamina. Physically there is a negligible difference in speed and Itachi fight the original one + Bee in close combat dodging there moves.
> 
> so yeah it is by definition a feat, and an impressive one still



1/13 of Naruto 

negligible difference

Pick one.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2016)

so did A look at sasuke eyes here and tell him genjutsu wont work? why didn't it work ?

[x]

ps: Dr white, fire power wise minato>>>>>>>>>sharingan itachi considering his bigger than normal rasengan in power is well above anything shaingan itachi can use or do

or FCD is also>>> sharingan itachi arsenal in terms of fire power


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2016)

Elite Uchiha said:


> 1/13 of Naruto
> 
> negligible difference
> 
> Pick one.



So then you didn't read my post?

Average Kage = 1, 000

50% Kyuubi = 1,000,000

What is 1,000,000/13 ?
 1/13 Nardo had no problem firing off FRS's vs Nagato. It was only after that fight that Nardo was tired. Which then got completely negated as went on to fight some more because ya know the Kyuubi is inside of him + he's an Uzumaki.

Not to mention shadow clones don't make the oringal user any slower physically. Itachi didn't react to his flicker but his combat speed..


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## Lawrence777 (Apr 13, 2016)

Edo Minato > Edo Itachi > Minato ~ Healthy Itachi > Sick Itachi => Jiraiya imo.
These 2 panels probably contributed most to me seeing Itachi as superior to Jiraiya[1][2].

I see SM Jiraiya as stronger than Orochimaru by a good margin personally and I think Jiraiya'd win, but not in a way akin to how fast, curt, and... apathetically as Itachi did. Itachi was going for Sasuke, Orochimaru was in the way, and he essentially got ran over.

Concerning Minato I don't really see a parallel between him and Itachi, it's just a feel for them being similar given there respective hype and feats which I view as comparable. Without adequate knowledge I think Minato's ill equipped to defeat Itachi however imo.


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## sanninme rikudo (Apr 13, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Edo Itachi > Minato > Itachi > SM Jiraiya


Definitely this without a doubt.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 13, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> So then you didn't read my post?
> 
> Average Kage = 1, 000
> 
> ...



Dividing someone's power into 13ths will 100% make any clone weaker, which in turn makes them less powerful. Speed, strength, etc will all be affected. He will ultimately have less chakra/energy to do any ninjutsu at his max compared to if he was not using KBs. 

And nice attempt at using arbitrary numbers to try and rationalize your failed logic. Assuming a Kage only has 1,000 (Hence Jiraiya, etc) while Naruto has 1000 times the chakra. Shit, even Kakashi was fighting far longer than Naruto and still was pushing forward.


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

OutlawJohn said:


> Idk how it can reasonably be interpreted that Itachi and Kisame were talking about Naruto when they said they would "both die" and that "even reinforcements" would not change the outcome. It seems to be, getting beyond the grammatical issues, it can only make logical sense that they were speaking about Jiraiya.




I don't know how it can be reasonably be interpreted that Itachi and Kisame were talking about Jiraiya when they said they would "both die" and that "even reinforcements" would not change the outcome. That is a far more ludicrous interpretation. 



> 1st) Why would Itachi and Kisame be sent after the Nine Tails if they thought that "even with reinforcements", they would die on the mission? That just doesn't follow any kind of logic that I can keep up with. Kisame clearly says that finding the boy in the Ramen shop was "good fortune". How is a suicide mission "good fortune"?




That's not what they said at all. If you read the official translation that I posted, Kisame thought that Itachi would be able to take Kurama on. So, in other words, in Kisame's mind, Itachi >= Kurama. When you add the Tailed Beast without a Tail to the mix, the chances of success obviously go up.



> 2nd) Kisame seems to immediately corroborate Itachi's claim by saying that both of their titles, ie. "Uchiha Clan and Seven Shinobi Swordsmen", mean nothing in the face of one of the legendary Sannin.




He wasn't corroborating Itachi's claim. Like I said, the subject switched to Jiraiya, and at that point, Kisame was talking about Jiraiya's fame. Jiraiya was simply more renowned than Itachi and Kisame.



> Did the manga later on change this dynamic? Probably. It's laughable to now to imagine that Jiraiya could kill both Itachi and Kisame + rienforcements, sans any kind of knowledge. Kishi underestimated how powerful he wanted the Akatsuki to be and that clearly shows. Whereas in Part 1 they stood somewhere between the Kage-level ninja and Elite Jounin like Kakashi and Kisame, in part 2 most of them become Kage level themselves. A clear inconsistency, but I think they were clearly referring to Jiraiya,




I highly disagree. I don't think that Kishimoto changed his mind at all. I think he knew exactly how strong he wanted Itachi (and the rest of Akatsuki) to be in comparison to the rest of the characters in the manga. The conversation in question actually supports that notion, because it implies that Itachi is capable of taking on Kurama--something that only Minato was suggested to be able to do at that point in the manga.

Itachi was well above the likes of Elite Jounin in Part I, and that was made pretty clear from Itachi's introduction.

***​
*Orochimaru:* _"He is stronger than I... That is why I broke away from that Organization."_

**Itachi reverses Kurenai's genjutsu with zero difficulty.**

*Kurenai* (after seeing Itachi's speed)*:* _"He's superhuman!"_

*Asuma:*_"I can't believe he's_ *this* _good.."._

*Kakashi (sweating):* _No, actually he's better, he hasn't even begun to show his true strength._

*Kakashi:* _"Why not just kill me? If he wanted to he could..."_

***​
Then, of course, there's the conversation with Kisame. Itachi was put on a pedestal that was easily at the level of a Kage (since, you know, he's stronger than the person that killed an actual Hokage, Hiruzen). I don't know why you would lump Itachi into the same category as the rest of the Akatsuki either--he's well above most of them, including his partner, Kisame. This was even made explicit in Part I.

Itachi (to Kakashi): _"I, unlike Kisame, wouldn't take any time at all..."_

Clear difference in portrayal right there.​


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2016)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Dividing someone's power into 13ths will 100% make any clone weaker, which in turn makes them less powerful. Speed, strength, etc will all be affected. He will ultimately have less chakra/energy to do any ninjutsu at his max compared to if he was not using KBs.


No.
A.) Naruto's physicality is not effected only his chakra amounts.
B.) Naruto had ample chakra to keep up his KCM mode and had enough for clones of a similar level. that's the whole benefit behind having access to Kyuubi's chakra.



> And nice attempt at using arbitrary numbers to try and rationalize your failed logic. Assuming a Kage only has 1,000 (Hence Jiraiya, etc) while Naruto has 1000 times the chakra. Shit, even Kakashi was fighting far longer than Naruto and still was pushing forward.


What the heck? Naruto in base thwarts Kakashi's stamina by multiple times...let alone with kyuubi access 1 - 8. Narutoin KCM laughs at Kakashi's pimple sized chakra pool.

The numbers are arbitrary lol. There meant to prove a point. I never claimed Itachic ould react to 100% KCM NAruto flicker speed, or anything of the like. But KCM NArdo could not land a solid hit on Itachi despite als having back up from Bee.


Prob not gonna go further with this though. You are too biased to continue discussion IMO.


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## OutlawJohn (Apr 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> I don't know how it can be reasonably be interpreted that Itachi and Kisame were talking about Jiraiya when they said they would "both die" and that "even reinforcements" would not change the outcome. That is a far more ludicrous interpretation.
> 
> Because it certainly makes more logical sense that Itachi and Kisame admitting that them and apparently anyone in Akatsuki stood no chance against a Jinchuuriki. Why would Itachi and Kisame go after a Jinchuuriki that Itachi believed would kill them both + reinforcements.
> 
> ...




First, easy on the "if you read" comments. They're condescending. I, like everyone else on the forum, have obviously read the manga. I have the viz at home if it makes you feel better.

Because it certainly makes more logical sense that Itachi and Kisame admitting that them and apparently anyone in Akatsuki stood no chance against a Jinchuuriki. Why would Itachi and Kisame go after a Jinchuuriki that Itachi believed would kill them both + reinforcements? For the shits and giggles? Answer the question please.

Second, why would Kisame and Jiraiya have the conversation on Jiraiya at all if Naruto was the clearer threat? Why would Kisame call it "good fortune" for them to find Naruto, if Naruto could possibly kill them both. Seems clear to me that the Jinchuuriki is not the problem.

Anyway, follow this logic:

Itachi and Kisame find Naruto, who obviously is not even an iota of a threat to them. Kisame sees that as good fortune. However, their good fortunes are spoiled when they see Jiraiya. Itachi says that even together plus rienforcements, they would kill Jiraiya. Kisame then continues the hype train by making his statement.

This is corroborated by the 2 simple facts:

1st) They wait till Jiraiya is gone before approaching Naruto. If Naruto is the threat that they're scared, then why?

2nd) Kisame follows Itachi and runs without so much as a single second guess when they face off against Jiraya. Why? If indeed Naruto was the actual threat?

You see what I'm saying. Now listen carefully before you get your panties twisted, I am NOT saying that the statement was credible. Obviously, Itachi + Kisame + any Akatsuki would put some serious wreckage on Jiraiya. So, here are the arguments that you CAN make.

1) Itachi was trying to protect Jiraiya, so he lied and the statement is not credible.
2) Itachi based the statement off hype and Kisame believed the hype, so the statement is not credible.
3) The mangeka simply decided to go on a different route with his story and just retconned it. This makes the most sense to me, because I don't believe Itachi's actions in Konoha against Kakashi and then against Sasuke in the hotel room are consistent with a character trying to protect the Leaf.

But, feel free to chose either one because the statement is clearly not true. But, it's little logical sense for Itachi and Kisame to go after a Jinchuuriki they can't beat, with backup. Then wait for Jiraiya to leave to try and abduct this Jinchuuriki, and then proceed to flee when Jiraiya returned, if they thought Jiraiya was not a threat.

Also, as for your comment on Kakashi's conversation; that really has no bearing on what the mangeka wanted at the time in terms of general abilities. Kakashi shitted his pants and was frozen stiff at the sight of Orochimaru, yet fended off Itachi and was brought down by Itachi's second most powerful technique at the time. The portrayal at the time is clearly in the Sannin's favor.​


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## Sadgoob (Apr 13, 2016)

> Because it certainly makes more logical sense that Itachi and Kisame admitting that them and apparently anyone in Akatsuki stood no chance against a Jinchuuriki. Why would Itachi and Kisame go after a Jinchuuriki that Itachi believed would kill them both + reinforcements? For the shits and giggles? Answer the question please.



Which makes more sense to you about Akatsuki having trouble: Jiraiya, who even in his prepped ultimate form said he was helpless against 3 shitty Paths, or Kurama, who with 8/9 tails broke out of Nagato's ultimate technique that had him coughing up blood and looking like shit trying/failing to do.

The answer's pretty goddamn obvious. Kurama's reputation is exalted. Multiple Akatsuki could be afraid of him if he gets loose. Jiriaya's reputation is not. Armless Orochimaru was talking down to him and kicking the shit out of him, saying there was *still* a gap in power between the two of them.


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## OutlawJohn (Apr 13, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Which makes more sense to you about Akatsuki having trouble: Jiraiya, who even in his prepped ultimate form said he was helpless against 3 shitty Paths, or Kurama, who with 8/9 tails broke out of Nagato's ultimate technique that had him coughing up blood and looking like shit trying/failing to do.
> 
> The answer's pretty goddamn obvious. Kurama's reputation is exalted. Multiple Akatsuki could be afraid of him. Jiriaya's reputation is not. Armless Orochimaru was talking down to him and treating him like a little bitch.



This is an absolute strawman and you know it, Sagboob. Like I've said 10 times, of course Itachi and Kisame wreck Jiraiya together. But that doesn't have anything to do with what makes sense from a literary perspective.

Also, Jiraiya went unprepped and with 0 knowledge into enemy territory against the Akatsuki Leader. He killed 3 bodies, lost his arm, and then proceeded to fight 6 bodies and kill one of them. Itachi, in the same situation, would kill three bodies, and then proceeded to get his anus removed when the other 3 arrived. Plus, since he has no way of isolating the bodies like Jiraiya does with the Toad Gourd, he also probably fails to relay any information back to Konoha.

Come on now, this isn't Dragonball Z or Yu Yu Hakusho. Skill sets matter.

As for the last piece about "reputations". Tell to that to Kisame who says, "Against him, our names mean nothing." If that's not exalting, I need to go learn Spanish cause English may not be for me.


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## Matty (Apr 13, 2016)

I think this is because besides the akatsuki high tiers, cases can be made that Sasori, Deidara and Kisame are just hairs below sannin in general. In essence Deidara is vastly superior in firepower, Sasori has tons of good hype as do sannin and Kisame has a pretty good portrayal.

Clear that the top 3 (whatever order you wanna out them) of the akatsuki were comfortably above the sannin.

However I do agree with Icegaze, Minato's lack of adverse effects is what gives him separation. However If Itachi actually pursued EMS he would've probably eclipsed Minato easily


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## Sadgoob (Apr 13, 2016)

> As for the last piece about "reputations". Tell to that to Kisame who says, "Against him, our names mean nothing."



He said the title of Sannin carries more fame/weight than an Uchiha or Mist Swordsman. So what? Jiriaya's combat reputation wasn't anywhere _near_ an unleashed Kurama. Armless Orochimaru was unconcerned, even before he knew Jiraiya was drugged. Kisame was unconcerned when Jiraiya showed up, and was shocked when Itachi retreated. None of this adds up to Jiraiya being stronger than Orochimaru, let alone capable of beating multiple high tier Akatsuki.


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

OutlawJohn said:


> First, easy on the "if you read" comments. They're condescending. I, like everyone else on the forum, have obviously read the manga. I have the viz at home if it makes you feel better.




Not really my intention.



> Because it certainly makes more logical sense that Itachi and Kisame admitting that them and apparently anyone in Akatsuki stood no chance against a Jinchuuriki. Why would Itachi and Kisame go after a Jinchuuriki that Itachi believed would kill them both + reinforcements? For the shits and giggles? Answer the question please.




Once again, Kisame suggested that Itachi was strong enough take Kurama on _on his own_. With Kisame added to mix, the chances of success would go up even further. They obviously aren't doing it for shits and giggles... They're Akatsuki; it's their job to take on dangerous missions and go after Bijuu. You also seem to be under the impression that Itachi would have had a choice in the matter. However, he's not the leader of Akatsuki. Nagato is.



> Second, why would Kisame and Jiraiya have the conversation on Jiraiya at all if Naruto was the clearer threat? Why would Kisame call it "good fortune" for them to find Naruto, if Naruto could possibly kill them both. Seems clear to me that the Jinchuuriki is not the problem.




A small clarification, but Kisame didn't say "good fortune" in the scans I posted. He said "good." It was good because their job was to find Naruto... Hence finding Naruto being a good thing. Kisame was simply making conversation. It's not something that Kisame hasn't done before; he's the type of character who likes a challenge, so he was excited by the prospect of fighting someone as strong as Jiraiya.



> Anyway, follow this logic:
> 
> Itachi and Kisame find Naruto, who obviously is not even an iota of a threat to them.




Untrue. Kisame found Kurama's chakra terrifying. If Naruto were to go on a rampage, the seal keeping Kurama inside of him could break, and Kurama could go on a rampage, forcing Kisame and Itachi into the situation they were conversing about earlier.



> tachi says that even together plus rienforcements, they would kill Jiraiya.




This is untrue IMO.




> This is corroborated by the 2 simple facts:
> 
> 1st) They wait till Jiraiya is gone before approaching Naruto. If Naruto is the threat that they're scared, then why?




I refer you to Itachi and Kisame's fight with the Konoha Jounin. Itachi didn't want to make a scene or start a war, and Itachi himself is a pacifist, so of course he would shoot for the scenario in which he doesn't have to fight Jiraiya.




> 2nd) Kisame follows Itachi and runs without so much as a single second guess when they face off against Jiraya. Why? If indeed Naruto was the actual threat?




Itachi didn't want to kill Jiraiya. At that point, he had an excuse to get away because he had used the Mangekyou several times. It's really funny that you bring that point up, because Kisame even poses the question to Itachi:

*Kisame*: _"Why is a retreat necessary for_ *you*_?"_

This is after he and Itachi had the conversation in question, mind you. Kisame actually wanted to keep fighting. If they were talking about Jiraiya previously, Kisame would know darn well why Itachi was running; he wouldn't need to ask Itachi that question.



> You see what I'm saying. Now listen carefully before you get your panties twisted, I am NOT saying that the statement was credible. Obviously, Itachi + Kisame + any Akatsuki would put some serious wreckage on Jiraiya. So, here are the arguments that you CAN make.
> 
> 1) Itachi was trying to protect Jiraiya, so he lied and the statement is not credible.
> 2) Itachi based the statement off hype and Kisame believed the hype, so the statement is not credible.
> ...




I see what you're saying, and I disagree with it for the reasons stated above. What I'm suggesting is far more logical in the context of _the entire manga_. Kishimoto didn't waver on Jiraiya's strength from "*stronger than all of Akatsuki*" to "weaker than Itachi." Like, do you realize how drastic a shift in Jiraiya's strength that is? I give Kishimoto more credit than that.



> Also, as for your comment on Kakashi's conversation; that really has no bearing on what the mangeka wanted at the time in terms of general abilities. Kakashi shitted his pants and was frozen stiff at the sight of Orochimaru, yet fended off Itachi and was brought down by Itachi's second most powerful technique at the time. The portrayal at the time is clearly in the Sannin's favor.




And how did you know Tsukuyomi was Itachi's second most powerful technique? Oh, that's right, at the time, you didn't. The portrayal is clearly _not_ in the Sannin's favor because *an actual Sannin admitted inferiority to Itachi*...​


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## OutlawJohn (Apr 13, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> He said the title of Sannin carries more fame/weight than an Uchiha or Mist Swordsman. So what? Jiriaya's combat reputation wasn't anywhere _near_ an unleashed Kurama. Armless Orochimaru was unconcerned, even before he knew Jiraiya was drugged. Kisame was unconcerned when Jiraiya showed up, and was shocked when Itachi retreated. None of this adds up to Jiraiya being stronger than Orochimaru, let alone capable of beating multiple high tier Akatsuki.



You didn't answer any of the questions I posed. Kurama's reputation being higher than Jiraiya's is completely irrelevant. Nor do Orochimaru's opinions of Jiraiya mean anything to Kisame or Itachi. Especially considering we know that by feats Jiraiya would eat Orochimaru like a ham-sandwich after recess in a fight.

1) Why the fuck would Itachi and Kisame go hunting Naruto if Itachi thought that him, Kisame and all of Akatsuki would die in the fight? Neither of you have so much as hinted as how to answer this simple fact. So Itachi and Kisame were on a suicide mission? Because that's the only interpretation that comes with saying they were talking about Naruto.

2) Kisame was not shocked they retreated. You made that up. In fact, Kisame's exact words are 
"SHIT" - he follows Itachi without a second thought. He later wonders why Itachi needs to retreat, yes, but it's used as a plot device to explain the weakness of the Mangekyo.

Anyway, I say again that the point is moot. Call it a plot hole, call it a retcon, call it an inconsistency, we know that Jiraiya would get wrekt by Itachi + Kisame + a potato. So the argument goes nowhere. I just find think anyone trying to say they were speaking on Kurama is extremely a stretch. It doesn't make sense when their mission, their aptitude at killing Jinchuuriki and so on are considered in full.


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

OutlawJohn said:


> Especially considering we know that by feats Jiraiya would eat Orochimaru like a ham-sandwich after recess in a fight.






The manga tells us that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are equals.​


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## OutlawJohn (Apr 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> Not really my intention.
> 
> Once again, Kisame suggested that Itachi was strong enough take Kurama on _on his own_. With Kisame added to mix, the chances of success would go up even further. They obviously aren't doing it for shits and giggles... They're Akatsuki; it's their job to take on dangerous missions and go after Bijuu. You also seem to be under the impression that Itachi would have had a choice in the matter. However, he's not the leader of Akatsuki. Nagato is.
> 
> ...



I answered most of this with Sad.

1) Kisame had no fucking problem running from Jiraiya. He did so with gusto in fact. Later he wondered why Itachi would do such a thing, but it's clearly used as a way to show the limits of The Mangekyo Sharingan's power.

2) Your argument as to why Itachi and Kisame would so easily go into a suicide mission makes no sense. If Kurama's Jinchuuriki really is so fucking powerful, then clearly Nagato would be equally as aware of that as anyone. So he sent Itachi and Kisame on what was clearly a fucking suicide mission. If all of Akatsuki stood no chance against the Jinchuuriki, why the fuck would sending two of them make any sense.

3) In the context of story, it made sense to hype Jiraiya, who had yet to receive any hype at all, before the Battle of the Three Sannin. Orochimaru had, up to that point, been considered the big baddie and Jiraiya was pretty hypeless save for one off handed comment from Ebisu.

Again, call it an inconsistency, call it retconn, call it meaningless hype, it really is irrelevent. Either Itachi *was lying (the most likely answer if we think that the mangeka was consistent throughout his portrayal of the manga)* or there was an inconsistency. But it makes no sense that Itachi would consider a Jinchuuriki superior to himself + all of his allies, especially considering no Jinchuuriki save for Killer Bee was at the level of the Sannin as far as we're aware.

Either way, not gonna belabor a moot point. Either way, the statement cannot be trusted. Either we say that Nagato sent Itachi and Kisame on a hopeless suicide mission, or we say that Itachi either lied about his capabilities in comparison to Jiraiya, or there is an inconsistency. I'm finished on the matter.



> The manga tells us that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are equals.



Feats say otherwise, and you know it.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 13, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> No.
> A.) Naruto's physicality is not effected only his chakra amounts.



*Link Removed*


Have you actually read the manga Naruto before? When people have diminished chakra, it always affects their physical abilities. You are actually making no sense. 



> B.) Naruto had ample chakra to keep up his KCM mode and had enough for clones of a similar level. that's the whole benefit behind having access to Kyuubi's chakra.



Nice, and what I am saying is that those clones "level" are inferior (1/13th). 




> What the heck? Naruto in base thwarts Kakashi's stamina by multiple times...let alone with kyuubi access 1 - 8. Narutoin KCM laughs at Kakashi's pimple sized chakra pool.



My point is that your arbitrary numbers were so unreasonable that any educated person would not use them. Hence, you claimed Naruto has 1000x more chakra than a Kage. I mentioned the Kage with the lowest chakra capacity, and he was fighting/using chakra even more than Naruto. 




> The numbers are arbitrary lol. There meant to prove a point. I never claimed Itachic ould react to 100% KCM NAruto flicker speed, or anything of the like. But KCM NArdo could not land a solid hit on Itachi despite als having back up from Bee.



Its not impressive when its 1/13th Naruto and BASE KB. KB wasn't even use his Jin forms like he did against Sasuke 



> Prob not gonna go further with this though. You are too biased to continue discussion IMO.



Yes, that its. When someone is owning you in an argument just concede and say the opposition is too biased to continue. This is why I rarely bother to and debate on this forum anymore. Either NF posters have become less educated or I'm just too accustomed to conversing/debating with people whose skills far exceeds individuals such as yourself. I guess going to one of the top undergrad business schools in the US changes people


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

OutlawJohn said:


> 1) Kisame had no fucking problem running from Jiraiya. He did so with gusto in fact. *Later he wondered why Itachi would do such a thing, but*




I don't know what part of my post you're addressing. You just sorted of quoted my whole entire post and made a number of points. The bolded statement doesn't address Kisame's confusion; you just kind of acknowledged it and swept it under the rug, but It's a major hole in your argument. The drawbacks of the Mangekyou were already known by that point in the manga.



> 2) Your argument as to why Itachi and Kisame would so easily go into a suicide mission makes no sense. If Kurama's Jinchuuriki really is so fucking powerful, then clearly Nagato would be equally as aware of that as anyone. So he sent Itachi and Kisame on what was clearly a fucking suicide mission. If all of Akatsuki stood no chance against the Jinchuuriki, why the fuck would sending two of them make any sense.




I never said anything about Nagato thinking that Itachi would die. I've already addressed the fact that Kisame was under the impression that Itachi could take on Kurama on his own, so it stands to reason that Nagato would have a similar level of confidence in Itachi's capabilities. Furthermore, Itachi said that he and [Kurama] _*might*_ end up killing each other, meaning that Itachi thought that he could complete the mission as well.




> 3) In the context of story, it made sense to hype Jiraiya, who had yet to receive any hype at all, before the Battle of the Three Sannin. Orochimaru had, up to that point, been considered the big baddie and Jiraiya was pretty hypeless save for one off handed comment from Ebisu.




That is _not_ a good argument. Kishimoto had over 500 chapters remaining to hype Jiraiya at any point.




> Again, call it an inconsistency, call it retconn, call it meaningless hype, it really is irrelevent. Either Itachi *was lying (the most likely answer if we think that the mangeka was consistent throughout his portrayal of the manga)* or there was an inconsistency. But it makes no sense that Itachi would consider a Jinchuuriki superior to himself + all of his allies, especially considering no Jinchuuriki save for Killer Bee was at the level of the Sannin as far as we're aware.




I have no idea why you're again lumping someone who's significantly stronger than their peers in with everyone else.

Kurama *>>* the other Bijuu.

It makes perfect sense for Itachi and Kisame to have doubts in their abilities to take down Kurama.

I'm not saying that they were wary of Naruto, The Number One Hyperactive, Knucklehead Ninja; I'm saying that they were wary of the Bijuu inside of him that forced the Legendary Yondaime Hokage to sacrifice his life in order to protect Konoha.



> Either way, not gonna belabor a moot point. Either way, the statement cannot be trusted. Either we say that Nagato sent Itachi and Kisame on a hopeless suicide mission, or we say that Itachi either lied about his capabilities in comparison to Jiraiya, or there is an inconsistency. I'm finished on the matter.




Except those explanations don't add up.



> Feats say otherwise, and you know it.




Tobirama (Edo Tensei) + Orochimaru *>>* Jiraiya (and many other characters). So no, even by feats, Jiraiya is not far above Orochimaru. They're portrayed as equals.​


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2016)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Have you actually read the manga Naruto before? When people have diminished chakra, it always affects their physical abilities. You are actually making no sense.


Nice try.

People get tired when there reserves are extremely low. Making 13 clones is jackshit for NAruto in base. Let alone with 50% kurama empowering each one. Naruto giving V1 to his fucking allies boosted them to new heights like Hinta air palming the Juubi palm away.  KCM clones have way more energy.

Making shadow clones lower a persons chakra pool but if it isn't dead low from said usage it's not going to hinder there speed 

add 50 cents and try again.




> Nice, and what I am saying is that those clones "level" are inferior (1/13th).


All clones are inferior lmao. Good thing these clones have Kyuubi chakra reserves and Itachi fought the real Naruto 






> My point is that your arbitrary numbers were so unreasonable that any educated person would not use them. Hence, you claimed Naruto has 1000x more chakra than a Kage. I mentioned the Kage with the lowest chakra capacity, and he was fighting/using chakra even more than Naruto.


Not at all. Naruto as an Uzumaki has more chakra than most ninja out there besides chakra beast like Kisame, Ei, etc. This was mentioned even in part 1. KCM gives Nardo and his clones access to all of Kyuubi's chakra. A KCM clone easily can create FRS like it nothing despite it being a taxing jutsu, KCM clones have more chakra than most Kage lol.

No one you mentioned has more chakra than KCM Nardo or his clones lol.






> Its not impressive when its 1/13th Naruto and BASE KB. KB wasn't even use his Jin forms like he did against Sasuke


You mean real Naruto in KCM form with plenty of chakra and Bee while it's 2 on 1? But let me guess you will be the one wanking Minato as being able to beat both Bee and Ei despite Bee not using his forms and Minato doing no damage to Ei though right 





> Yes, that its. When someone is owning you in an argument just concede and say the opposition is too biased to continue. This is why I rarely bother to and debate on this forum anymore.


You claiming something doesn't make it true. You didn't own anyone. You consistently wank Minato on the daily and are overly bias. 



> Either NF posters have become less educated or I'm just too accustomed to conversing/debating with people whose skills far exceeds individuals such as yourself. I guess going to one of the top undergrad business schools in the US changes people


Lmao aren't you special. That's a real cool story bro. Too bad there is no inherent correlation between that and being a good debater or being smart in fields other than business... Please stop trying to stroke yourself to try to boost the impression that you've won an argument with irrelevant things.


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## OutlawJohn (Apr 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> Tobirama (Edo Tensei) + Orochimaru *>>* Jiraiya (and many other characters). So no, even by feats, Jiraiya is not far above Orochimaru. They're portrayed as equals.​



As I said, I will not belabor the other point as it is moot. The idea that Nagato sent Itachi and Kisame after Kurama while knowing that Kurama > Entire Akatsuki. It also runs into another serious issue. Why would Kisame and Itachi even bring up Kurama when the opponent is indeed, Naruto? They have no information on the state of his seal. Any information they have gathered on him surely indicates that he's barely a Chunin and far from a threat. Rather than continue this pointless discussion, I'll send you to a very good and very old (2010) post from Turrin: 

It's very long, but here is a quote from translator ShounenSuki



> If they were on any level apprehensive about Naruto's strength, they wouldn't have knocked on his door and asked him to come with them. They'd have found a far better way to capture him.
> 
> And you're right, Kisame does say something along the lines of "But... this child is the Kyuubi hmm". This brings me to another point. They knew who Naruto was before their conversation. They had seen him and Jiraiya at the Ramen shop. They should have had intel on him as well. There is no way they would have thought him so amazingly powerful, the both of them wouldn't be able to defeat him.
> 
> Seriously, first they are almost certain they would die if they faced him, and then they knock on his door, stand there in the door opening seemingly without even expecting the need to fight, and ask him to join them? Not only that, but Kisame, who thought he would be defeated, was apparently sure he could easily dismember Naruto. At that moment, he had just as much information on Naruto's abilities as he had when he saw him at the ramen shop. Why was he suddenly so confident?



- After having reread this thread for the first time in years, it makes clear as well that, in the Viz Translation, Itachi says that a battle between himself and Jiraiya is likely a draw. The reinforcements that Itachi is referring to is just Kisame, who Itachi says would likely just be caught up in the cross-fire. Other translations suggest it is more people.

As for Orochimaru V Jiraiya

Tobirama (Edo Tensei) + Orochimaru >> Itachi
Minato (Edo Tensei) + Orochimaru >> Itachi
Madara (Edo Tensei) + Orochimaru >> Itachi

This is IzayaHara's logic. If Orochimaru is allowed the sum of his Edo Tensei techniques at any moment, then Hokage (Edo Tensei) + Orochimaru >> Narutoverse without the god tiers.

Yet, in any discussion of Itachi vs Orochimaru, those Edo Tensei are never considered.  Orochimaru sans those obviously outlier Edo Tensei that are alone stronger than Jiraiya, is not match by feats to Jiraiya.

If you want to go by portrayal, an easy argument could be made for Itachi = Jiraiya in portrayal. I rank Itachi higher on my list of powerful ninja by a margin, but the story is there. They serve as similar bench marks for Naruto and Sasuke. Both die at nearly the same time, after which Naruto and Sasuke pick up their major skill sets and supposedly "surpass them". Part 1 portrayal means nothing in the face of part 2 realities.

In Part 1: Orochimaru>Jiraiya>Tsunade>Orochimaru
in Part 1: Hiruzen>Onoki and A

All of that irrelevant to part 2 realities. Orochimaru's portrayal and feats in part 2 nowhere near stack up to Jiraiya.


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## Complete_Ownage (Apr 13, 2016)

It's 2016 and people still think:

1) Itachi was talking about naruto/kurama when theres like a million page discussion on this matter and most if not all translators say it was Jiraiya who they were referencing as naruto would make no sense.

2) Itachi can keep up with KCM Naruto 

Dear god people still don't get this....how the fuck is this still even debatable


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

OutlawJohn said:


> As I said, I will not belabor the other point as it is moot. The idea that Nagato sent Itachi and Kisame after Kurama while knowing that Kurama > Entire Akatsuki. It also runs into another serious issue. Why would Kisame and Itachi even bring up Kurama when the opponent is indeed, Naruto? They have no information on the state of his seal. Any information they have gathered on him surely indicates that he's barely a Chunin and far from a threat. Rather than continue this pointless discussion, I'll send you to a very good and very old (2010) post from Turrin:
> 
> It's very long, but here is a quote from translator ShounenShiki




Is that the thread that people have been referring to?  There was nothing significantly different about those translations... As I thought, there seems to be no "more gramatically accurate" way of translating the conversation. The only way that the statement can be interpreted differently is based on the context of the manga. 

There are several things wrong Turrin's post, some of which I have already addressed in our back-and-forth. 

For example:



> Alright here i say its impossible Itachi was referring to the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki, the reason being that he is now talking about thee best scenario in both translations. With this comment we can not excuse them based on the premise that he is referring to the worst case scenario.




... Well, no, he was clearly discussing multiple scenarios. Itachi used the word "if" twice; there were two conditional statements.

Turrin also made the assumption that they were talking about just Naruto, not considering the possibility of him rampaging... You know, the way that he had rampaged against Nagato? It seems as though Turrin and ShounenShiki didn't take that possibility into account at all (for whatever reason). I don't what _else_ this particular translator thought Kisame and Itachi were supposed to do. They chose the best approach: ask Naruto to come with them nicely (which complies with Itachi's desire to spill no blood), and in the case that Naruto starts to rouse Kurama's chakra, Samehada is there to prevent it (and that's probably one of the reasons that Kisame wanted to chop Naruto's legs off, as Samehada wouldn't be able to absorb Naruto's chakra if he grew Kyuubi Tails and started bouncing around). There was no "better approach." 

I have no clue why you think that knowledge of the state of Naruto's seal would ever be an issue either. _All_ of the Jinchuuriki have bijuu inside of them that can go on rampages. That is  *common knowledge*, especially for an organization that hunts Bijuu. A Jinchuuriki going into a rampage a la Six Tails Naruto is always a possibility.



> As for Orochimaru V Jiraiya
> 
> Tobirama (Edo Tensei) + Orochimaru >> Itachi
> Minato (Edo Tensei) + Orochimaru >> Itachi
> ...




It doesn't matter that you consider them outliers; they still prove my point. Jiraiya is simply not far above Orochimaru feat-wise, and he's certainly not far above Orochimaru in terms of his portrayal.




> If you want to go by portrayal, an easy argument could be made for Itachi = Jiraiya in portrayal. I rank Itachi higher on my list of powerful ninja by a margin, but the story is there. They serve as similar bench marks for Naruto and Sasuke. Both die at nearly the same time, after which Naruto and Sasuke pick up their major skill sets and supposedly "surpass them". Part 1 portrayal means nothing in the face of part 2 realities.




For one, Sasuke was already stronger than Naruto when he fought Itachi, so the parallel is not that simple, Secondly, Itachi was holding back against Sasuke. The same cannot be said for Jiraiya when fighting Nagato's Six Path of Pain. I could go into more detail, but I don't think it'd be worth the time (or that you would want me to).



> In Part 1: Orochimaru>Jiraiya>Tsunade>Orochimaru
> in Part 1: Hiruzen>Onoki and A
> 
> All of that irrelevant to part 2 realities. Orochimaru's portrayal and feats in part 2 nowhere near stack up to Jiraiya.




Portrayal is never irrelevant, even if it's followed by new information that makes that portrayal seem questionable. I highly disagree with the assertion that Orochimaru's portrayal and feats don't stack up to Jiraiya, but TBH, I don't care enough about Orochimaru to do an extended comparison to show why that is the case. Especially since I feel that most people would agree that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are more or less equals.​


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## Ersa (Apr 13, 2016)

Anyone who can wipe the floor with non-ET Orochimaru in base form can stop him summoning his Edo Tensei with their full arsenal. Minato, Obito, Itachi, Hashirama, Madara and Nagato for example can easily stop him using ET. Either that or Hashirama breaks out and snaps his neck.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 13, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Nice try.
> 
> *People get tired when there reserves are extremely low.* Making 13 clones is jackshit for NAruto in base. Let alone with 50% kurama empowering each one. Naruto giving V1 to his fucking allies boosted them to new heights like Hinta air palming the Juubi palm away.  KCM clones have way more energy.



The more you reply, the more stuff you pull out ass to try and cope with a failed argument. The bold is a prime example. And its funny how you also forget that Minato gave Naruto chakra 



> Making shadow clones lower a persons chakra pool but if it isn't dead low from said usage it's not going to hinder there speed



So are you saying that 10% output is nearly equal to 100% output? Seems legit. 







> All clones are inferior lmao. Good thing these clones have Kyuubi chakra reserves and Itachi fought the real Naruto



No matter how you try and spin it they are still inferior to the real thing. Stop coping. 





> Not at all. Naruto as an Uzumaki has more chakra than most ninja out there besides chakra beast like Kisame, Ei, etc. This was mentioned even in part 1. KCM gives Nardo and his clones access to all of Kyuubi's chakra. A KCM clone easily can create FRS like it nothing despite it being a taxing jutsu, KCM clones have more chakra than most Kage lol.



I wouldn't expect FRS to be taxing on Naruto. The dude had to actually use KB to set up FRS before. So, I highly doubt its too taxing of a jutsu. 



> No one you mentioned has more chakra than KCM Nardo or his clones lol.



Reading comprehension = non existent



> You mean real Naruto in KCM form with plenty of chakra and Bee while it's 2 on 1? But let me guess you will be the one wanking Minato as being able to beat both Bee and Ei despite Bee not using his forms and Minato doing no damage to Ei though right



Yes, the real 1/13th chakra Naruto, which means Itachi fight "fighting" with a Naruto Lite and a KB who didn't even use his forms. My point is that this was not actually a good feat for Itachi because anyone his level could do that. 

Moreover, I didn't hype Minato. KB did a good job of doing that by shaking in his boots when his name was mentioned. I'm an 06 Itachi fan, so I think if I was going to be biased it would be for Itachi. 




> You claiming something doesn't make it true. You didn't own anyone. You consistently wank Minato on the daily and are overly bias.



This is your problem. You think Itachi > Minato is wanking. There is no one on this forum who has been an Itachi fan longer than myself. At the tender age of 11 I was on here wanking Itachi. Don't ever compare me to a Minato wanker. 



> Lmao aren't you special. That's a real cool story bro. Too bad there is no inherent correlation between that and being a good debater or being smart in fields other than business... Please stop trying to stroke yourself to try to boost the impression that you've won an argument with irrelevant things.



Never did I state I was special. In ten years, I might actually be something. But then again, special is subjective. Some people would consider what I have accomplished special, while others might not.  But to say there isn't a correlation between education and debating is stupid. If you aren't educated, you won't even be able to come up with a coherent argument. 

Its funny how you claim I am stroking my ego by making an observation. It was just funny to me that I use to consider posters on NF were good at debating/intelligent. My whole perspective changed once I went off to school. There is no stroking, I am just stating facts.


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## OutlawJohn (Apr 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> Is that the thread that people have been referring to?  There was nothing significantly different about those translations... As I thought, there seems to be no "more gramatically accurate" way of translating the conversation. The only way that the statement can be interpreted differently is based on the context of the manga.
> 
> There are several things wrong Turrin's post, some of which I have already addressed in our back-and-forth.
> 
> ...




Come now, Saru. You completely ignore the logical implications of Kisame and Itachi's blatant and absolutely ballsy approach of Naruto. How can it be possible that Itachi is sure his battle with Naruto will most likely end in death, yet they speak to him. Why not attack him as soon as the door is open and totally avoid the problem of him possibly going on the rampage? How about Itachi instantly putting him to sleep with eye contact? You continue to revert to the "grammatical" argument, ignoring that Japanese can never be perfectly translated into English. 

There are a million and a half ways that Itachi and Kisame could have avoided ever having to deal with Kurama in this particular scenario.

The logic follows. Jiraiya is there. They are confident that they cannot win. Jiraiya is gone. Suddenly they are extremely confident in their victory. To the point that Itachi is willing to waste time beating on his little brother and angering Naruto. Surely Kisame and Itachi know that the best way to get the demon to take over a Jinchuuriki is to anger him.

Also, you can't make the statement assertion that Itachi and Kisame were speaking about facing their certain death against Kurama, and then in this post, mention that Kisame had Samehada out so they would be fine. Clearly that is no logical approach. You have to choose. Either Itachi and Kisame thought death against the Jinchuuriki was certain, or they thought Samehada would be more than enough to handle a riled up Jinchuuriki.

It makes far more sense that Itachi is just lying to Kisame about Jiraiya, and Kisame buys it.

Honestly though, this is boring me now as it's clearly going nowhere. That translator had nearly 10 years experience translating Japanese to English. I see no reason to contradict him. As I see it, the logical steps do not follow out. Itachi and Kisame would not talk about certain death against Kurama, and then proceed to face Naruto face to face, threaten him, beat one of his friends and generally just bitch him out. Itachi could have put him to sleep in an instant and Kisame's shaving never would have become something that needed to be done.



> It doesn't matter that you consider them outliers; they still prove my point. Jiraiya is simply not far above Orochimaru feat-wise, and he's certainly not far above Orochimaru in terms of his portrayal.



lol, now you're being silly.

By portrayal, Itachi > Orochimaru.

If I stick to this portrayal, and I use the stupid logic of Orochimaru being able to access the most dangerous the logical extremes of his Edo Tensei capabilities, then I would have to accept that Itachi > Orochimaru + (Random Edo Kage here). That is obviously stupid. Orochimaru + Hashirama, Tobirama or Minato in their Edo form would open this kid's anus.




> For one, Sasuke was already stronger than Naruto when he fought Itachi, so the parallel is not that simple, Secondly, Itachi was holding back against Sasuke. The same cannot be said for Jiraiya when fighting Nagato's Six Path of Pain. I could go into more detail, but I don't think it'd be worth the time (or that you would want me to).



I said the argument exists. This is the problem with sticking closely to portrayals and ignoring feats. Portrayals are subjective. Itachi was holding back against Sasuke, yet Jiraiya was facing an objectively more powerful opponent, so what is your point? The nuances have nothing to do with the general portrayals. Naruto killing Kakuzu is a clear parallel of Sasuke killing Deidara. Whether or not one is slightly stronger than the other is irrelevant. Then immediately after, both of them lose the character that is closest to their hearts (negative or positive). They then both go "train" with a former master of said dead character, and return with that dead character's main skill set. Where the ambiguity here?



> Portrayal is never irrelevant, even if it's followed by new information that makes that portrayal seem questionable. I highly disagree with the assertion that Orochimaru's portrayal and feats don't stack up to Jiraiya, but TBH, I don't care enough about Orochimaru to do an extended comparison to show why that is the case. Especially since I feel that most people would agree that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are more or less equals.



Once again, I say that portrayals are subjective. Again, I do not necessarily disagree that Orochimaru and Jiraiya aren't on the same level. My issue is that you can use that portrayal in an argument about Jiraiya and Itachi. Orochimaru vs Jiraiya has no actual relevant bearing on Itachi v Jiraiya.

This being said, I agree that Itachi >= SM Jiraiya > Orochimaru. I am not making an argument for Jiraiya being the better combatant here. Just saying that the consensus among translators, and the logical conclusion that I see, points to Itachi talking about Jiraiya.


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

OutlawJohn said:


> Come now, Saru. You completely ignore the logical implications of Kisame and Itachi's blatant and absolutely ballsy approach of Naruto. How can it be possible that Itachi is sure his battle with Naruto will most likely end in death, yet they speak to him. Why not attack him as soon as the door is open and totally avoid the problem of him possibly going on the rampage? How about Itachi instantly putting him to sleep with eye contact? You continue to revert to the "grammatical" argument, ignoring that Japanese can never be perfectly translated into English.




My point about grammar is that the translation can't get any "better." So the notion that 'the translators all agree that it was Jiraiya" doesn't really fly. The translators all _reasoned_ that Kisame and Itachi were referring to Jiraiya based on their own personal interpretations of the manga and not the grammar or sentence structure of the conversation itself.

And again, I'm not sure why you keep stating that Itachi was "sure" that he would die if he faced Naruto. Itachi gave multiple scenarios: one in which they capture Kurama without issue, one in which he and Kurama end up badly injured, and one in which he and Kurama kill each other. Once again, speaking to Naruto complied with Itachi's wishes to avoid bloodshed, and it was also possibly a way for itachi to stall for time so that he could see Sasuke. I have not a clue why Itachi didn't use Sharingan Genjutsu on Naruto. It's possible that something could have gone wrong in that process. It's not like Itachi had a lot of time. Itachi and Kisame showed up, then Sasuke showed immediately after them, then Jiraiya showed up immediately after that. Let's also be mindful of the fact that Itachi was the one calling the shots, and he was also likely trying to maintain his loyalty to Konoha in the best way possible.



> There are a million and a half ways that Itachi and Kisame could have avoided ever having to deal with Kurama in this particular scenario.




You provided me with one plan that would have gone against Itachi's wishes and another plan which Itachi and KIsame didn't even have time to attempt.



> The logic follows. Jiraiya is there. They are confident that they cannot win. Jiraiya is gone. Suddenly they are extremely confident in their victory. To the point that Itachi is willing to waste time beating on his little brother and angering Naruto. Surely Kisame and Itachi know that the best way to get the demon to take over a Jinchuuriki is to anger him.




*Who do you think Itachi prioritizes more:* Sasuke or Akatsuki? I'm going to go with the former.



> Also, you can't make the statement assertion that Itachi and Kisame were speaking about facing their certain death against Kurama, and then in this post, mention that Kisame had Samehada out so they would be fine. Clearly that is no logical approach. You have to choose. Either Itachi and Kisame thought death against the Jinchuuriki was certain, or they thought Samehada would be more than enough to handle a riled up Jinchuuriki.




I don't get why you keep stating that they would face certain death. You continue to ignore the fact that Itachi and Kisame both considered victory a possibility. So no, there's no need to "choose," because there were multiple contingencies, all of which Itachi laid out in the conversation with Kisame.



> It makes far more sense that Itachi is just lying to Kisame about Jiraiya, and Kisame buys it.




No, because it implies that Kishimoto didn't know what the hell he was doing.




> lol, now you're being silly.
> 
> By portrayal, Itachi > Orochimaru.
> 
> If I stick to this portrayal, and I use the stupid logic of Orochimaru being able to access the most dangerous the logical extremes of his Edo Tensei capabilities, then I would have to accept that Itachi > Orochimaru + (Random Edo Kage here). That is obviously stupid. Orochimaru + Hashirama, Tobirama or Minato in their Edo form would open this kid's anus.




You set the context: we were talking about feats. I also want to distance myself from the notion that EoS Orochimaru is undoubtedly far, far stronger than anyone else in the series with Edo Tensei. Orochimaru seemed to have difficulty controlling Tobirama alone, and he outright stated that he wasn't capable of controlling Hashirama, so I have doubts that he would be able to restrain Tobirama and fight effectively, let alone BM Minato or multiple Kage at the same time.




> I said the argument exists. This is the problem with sticking closely to portrayals and ignoring feats. Portrayals are subjective. Itachi was holding back against Sasuke, yet Jiraiya was facing an objectively more powerful opponent, so what is your point? The nuances have nothing to do with the general portrayals. Naruto killing Kakuzu is a clear parallel of Sasuke killing Deidara. Whether or not one is slightly stronger than the other is irrelevant. Then immediately after, both of them lose the character that is closest to their hearts (negative or positive). They then both go "train" with a former master of said dead character, and return with that dead character's main skill set. Where the ambiguity here?




I've already pointed it out: Itachi/Jiraiya and Naruto/Sasuke  were in different situations. The context behind and motivations for the battle between Itachi and Sasuke were completely different from Naruto fighting Pain. The same goes for Kakuzu and Deidara. Naruto killed Kakuzu to show off his new jutsu. Sasuke killed Deidara... To find more information about Itachi. The parallel doesn't really fit into a neat little box.

Sasuke and Naruto's powers are inherently unbalanced. One of them has a Bijuu *and* Sage Mode; the other only has the Sharingan. The two transmigrants were never going to be a neat parallel due to that simple fact. We should also be mindful of the fact that Minato was Naruto's penultimate benchmark (excluding Rikudou), yet he didn't have anything to teach Naruto. All that he had was Hiraishin and Sage Mode, neither of which could have been given to Naruto at any point (Hiraishin because Minato was dead, and Sage Mode because Naruto had already acquired it at that point). Naruto and Sasuke were progressing at different paces at different points in the manga; they aren't always equals, and neither are their "benchmarks," necessarily. 

Tell me, who was Sasuke's benchmark parallel to Minato? Kakashi? The obvious answer is Itachi.  



> Once again, I say that portrayals are subjective. Again, I do not necessarily disagree that Orochimaru and Jiraiya aren't on the same level. My issue is that you can use that portrayal in an argument about Jiraiya and Itachi. Orochimaru vs Jiraiya has no actual relevant bearing on Itachi v Jiraiya.




Portrayal is almost always a valid way of assessing a character's strength, because it's a reflection of the author's intention. If Kishimoto portrayed Itachi as on a completely different level than one of the Sannin, then Itachi is most likely above any one of the Sannin. Especially when he has the feats of defeating that Sannin in his most powerful form to back the notion up.



> This being said, I agree that Itachi >= SM Jiraiya > Orochimaru. I am not making an argument for Jiraiya being the better combatant here. Just saying that the consensus among translators, and the logical conclusion that I see, points to Itachi talking about Jiraiya.




I disagree. Like I said, those translators were doing no better than any of the other readers or translators in terms of interpreting the text. They were just trying to reason why Itachi and Kisame would be talking about Jiraiya much like I'm doing right now. I disagree with their reasoning.​


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## Sadgoob (Apr 13, 2016)

Plus aside from the official viz, you have actual Japanese translators from Japan agreeing that the subject was Kurama. It's actually in a well named thread called Naruto translation errors & fan started rumours compilation.

And really, if you just competently look at the context, even without the language specifics:


The Sannin were repeatedly implied to be about equal.
Orochimaru outperformed Jiraiya and claimed to be better than him.
Orochimaru believed defeating Itachi to be an impossible dream for him.
Itachi  said that only an Uchiha with the Sharingan could beat him.
Kisame flat-out said Itachi could defeat Jiraiya with his power.
That was _after_ Kisame asked Itachi to stop using his eyes for the day.
Like, it's a mass-delusion effect to believe that base Jiriaya is the subject of that hype and not Kurama. It literally makes no sense based on everything surrounding that moment, even the _official translation_ indicates its Kurama.

Yet because a few translators on this site, for whatever reason, totally ignore all that context and pretended that the language itself _wasn't_ ambiguous, we have people believing a literally retarded idea.

The idea that Jiriaya has the _reputation_ to beat Itachi, Kisame, and more Akatsuki backup _*yet*_ _not_ have the reputation for an Armless Orochimaru fighting a 1v2 Sannin brawl to consider Jiraiya his equal (he thought him his inferior.)

And the idea that the subject is the seal breaking and releasing Kurama, whose insane power is  by Sasuke right before the shift to Itachi talking about a subject, is considered inane. 

It's so obvious that it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous to act like it's a debate. You should feel bad for thinking it was Jiriaya, but feel worse if you can't look at the evidence now and go, "Huh. I guess it makes more sense if its Kurama."

You know, the beast that we were told took on the military super power of the world and killed hundreds of villagers, swept away mountains with its tails, and ultimately killed the legendary Fourth Hokage just to be sealed.

_That_ makes sense. _That_ has the reputation.


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## OutlawJohn (Apr 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> My point about grammar is that the translation can't get any "better." So the notion that 'the translators all agree that it was Jiraiya" doesn't really fly. The translators all _reasoned_ that Kisame and Itachi were referring to Jiraiya based on their own personal interpretations of the manga and not the grammar or sentence structure of the conversation itself.
> 
> And again, I'm not sure why you keep stating that Itachi was "sure" that he would die if he faced Naruto. Itachi gave multiple scenarios: one in which they capture Kurama without issue, one in which he and Kurama end up badly injured, and one in which he and Kurama kill each other. Once again, speaking to Naruto complied with Itachi's wishes to avoid bloodshed, and it was also possibly a way for itachi to stall for time so that he could see Sasuke. I have not a clue why Itachi didn't use Sharingan Genjutsu on Naruto. It's possible that something could have gone wrong in that process. It's not like Itachi had a lot of time. Itachi and Kisame showed up, then Sasuke showed immediately after them, then Jiraiya showed up immediately after that. Let's also be mindful of the fact that Itachi was the one calling the shots, and he was also likely trying to maintain his loyalty to Konoha in the best way possible.
> 
> ...



As I said, I'm bored with it and it really doesn't matter. I'm going with the translators on this one. Either way, we know the statement to be untrustable.



Sadgoob said:


> Plus aside from the official viz, you have actual Japanese translators from Japan agreeing that the subject was Kurama. It's actually in a well named thread called Naruto translation errors & fan started rumours compilation.
> 
> And really, if you just competently look at the context, even without the language specifics:
> 
> ...



For love of god. Stop equating Orochimaru v Jiraiya to Orochimaru v Itachi. Orochimaru's lack of respect for Jiraiya has no bearing on Itachi's showing of respect for Jiraiya. Presumably, Orochimaru has not seen Jiraiya since before the death of the 4th Hokage. His opinion about Jiraiya 12+ years later is moot. Also, presumably Kisame and Itachi are acting on no knowledge and no hype.

You just gave a post that starts with rumors about Naruto 3 being called Akkaipuden. That's wrong, so I'm assuming everything after it and your use of it as proof is equally fallacious.

At worst, I will say that the translation is ambiguous. But again, I be bored with this pointless conversation.

You're disrespect and calling people's ideas retarded is unwarranted. Play nice.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 13, 2016)

> You just gave a post that starts with rumors about Naruto 3 being called Akkaipuden. That's wrong, so I'm assuming everything after it and your use of it as proof is equally fallacious.



With that kind of reading comprehension, it makes sense that you think that the subject was Jiraiya. If you read more carefully:



> Rumour : Naruto Akippuuden will be the name of the series after Shippuuden.
> 
> [spoilertag]There is no such thing as Akippuden.
> It's just a fan started rumour like Uzumaki Arashi being written on the toad scroll.
> ...


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## OutlawJohn (Apr 13, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> With that kind of reading comprehension, it makes sense that you think that the subject was Jiraiya. If you read more carefully:



I quoted a translator. You quoted a transaltor. I fail to see the proof. Again, stop with the disrespect. I've shown you nothing but.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 13, 2016)

You are generally very intelligent and courteous to me. It is not my preference to lack respect, but you need to show it to receive it. Misreading the first thing I linked and discarding everything else as fallacious, is not respectful.

Yes, certain translators agree with you, but they also said the language is ambiguous. If they did not say that, then their integrity should be questioned. Other translators disagree, and manga context indicates it isn't Jiraiya.

As does the official translation/translators.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2016)

Literally every translator on this forum that has ever looked at the statement has said it was about Jiraiya. The level of denial is ridiculous.



> ... Well, no, he was clearly discussing multiple scenarios. Itachi used the word "if" twice; there were two conditional statements.


Saru he was talking about the best case scenario and still saying it would end in a draw. But if the subject was Naruto wouldn't the best case scenario be that he and Kisame rape Naruto as they did in Canon, because Naruto was still a 13Yo Kid at the time? That's one of the major reasons that, it just doesn't make sense for Naruto to be the subject there. If they were talking about the worst case scenario it would make more sense.

And really there is no evidence in the original Japanese to suggest they were talking about Naruto to begin w/. Stragoob tries to intentionally twist the Viz translation, while ignoring that every person who can actually read Japanese on these forums, has stated that actual Japanese doesn't include the topic shift, that he's trying to force into the Viz.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2016)

I honestly believe it was Jiraiya they were referring to based on the scan sadgoob posted 

Why bring up Jiriaya title at all if the subject was naruto and then say even the strongest heroes have their weakness 

Though if we think on it and say Jiriaya and itachi could just themselves badly . Tbh adding some akatsuki back up won't change the outcome 

Hidan anyone


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## Azula (Apr 14, 2016)

Itachi ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) need to stop, he is weaker than both


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## Sadgoob (Apr 14, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Literally every translator on this forum that has ever looked at the statement has said it was about Jiraiya. The level of denial is ridiculous.





Gottheim's initial opinion  was that it was Kurama. Shounensuki came in and argued from the manga context, not the language. From the language perspective, Gottheim was deadset that Shounensuki was wrong.

Then Gottheim argued  with him. You can also tell that both were completely unaware that the printed manga had Sasuke talking about Kurama's massive power side by side with Itachi talking about Kurama's massive power.

IMO Shounensuki had an agenda, just like you do, just like I do. But it's *completely* disingenuous to pretend it had something to do with raw Japanese and not the context of surrounding manga events.

Or say that "literally every translator thought so." There's so much dishonesty in trying to hype Jiriaya with hype that doesn't even make remote sense to anybody, that it's completely mind-blowing to me.



Turrin said:


> But if the subject was Naruto wouldn't



It was Kurama breaking free.

Itachi and Kisame's reaction to Kurama barely leaking. Kisame called it terrifying, and both showed multiple exclamation marks when feeling it. Kurama breaking out was the worst-case scenario they were talking about.

Itachi and Kisame's reaction to Jiraiya. They literally did not give a shit. Itachi beat the piss out of Sasuke and used Tsukuyomi, an incredibly draining secret jutsu, on Sasuke right in front of Jiriaya, with his back turned. Kisame was _confounded_ Itachi backed down from Jiraiya, saying Itachi's power was more than enough for Jiraiya despite asking Itachi not to use his eyes.



> Plus aside from the official viz, you have Japanese translators agreeing that the subject was Kurama. It's actually in a well named thread called Naruto translation errors & fan started rumours compilation.
> 
> Translators on this forum also agreed the language itself implied it was . And really, if you just competently look at the context, even without the language specifics:
> 
> ...


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## Sadgoob (Apr 14, 2016)

But I'll be flying to and  living in Okinawa Japan for two years starting tomorrow, so I can totally go find some locals and ask them if it's "clear in the language"  to the point where a translator's opinion of the raw language matters. 

Hint: It's not. It's *obviously* not. The language grammar, according to the viz and Gottheim/Kirin/viz's read of the language itself, supports _exactly_ what the context of the manga supports: it was Kurama.

And the reason you, and people that stubbornly give the hype to Jiraiya, rely on "herpa lerpa all translators agree" is because the context of the manga doesn't support you at all. You _need_ to argue from authority.

You literally have a few Jiraiya fans, who happen to know Japanese, arguing for it based on the event context (not the language) any non-Japanese person can argue about. That's really all it is.


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## Mithos (Apr 14, 2016)

Minato > Jiraiya = Itachi

Itachi > base Jiraiya, but SM Jiraiya > Itachi so it evens out in my opinion. 

As someone already mentioned, there are obvious parallels between Jiraiya as a benchmark for Naruto to surpass and Itachi as one for Sasuke, and they were used at the same time. They both have the same DB stat total, and then there's Itachi's statement. Taken together, it seems like Kishi intended for them to be viewed as approximate equals.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 14, 2016)

^
No one cares about your opinion bro, we are discussing the manga here.


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## Saru (Apr 14, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Saru he was talking about the best case scenario and still saying it would end in a draw. But if the subject was Naruto wouldn't the best case scenario be that he and Kisame rape Naruto as they did in Canon, because Naruto was still a 13Yo Kid at the time? That's one of the major reasons that, it just doesn't make sense for Naruto to be the subject there. If they were talking about the worst case scenario it would make more sense.




Like I (and I'm sure many others over the years) stated, I'm convinced that they were wary of the Demon Fox, not the benign child hosting its power.



> And really there is no evidence in the original Japanese to suggest they were talking about Naruto to begin w/. Stragoob tries to intentionally twist the Viz translation, while ignoring that every person who can actually read Japanese on these forums, has stated that actual Japanese doesn't include the topic shift, that he's trying to force into the Viz.




I don't understand why you keep bringing up the translators. They didn't translate anything differently, so they don't help your argument. I may not know Japanese, but I do know common sense, and common sense tells me that the translators were just trying to assign a character to the subject of Itachi and Kisame's conversation using manga context just the same way that you, or I, or anyone else can. They don't have the final say, and their opinion is no better than anyone else's. So, you can stop trying to say that translators agree that it was Jiraiya in order to make your stance come across as more legitimate, because from what I can tell, the clarity of the language had nothing to do with those translators' conclusion.

Every translator apparently did _not_ agree that it was Jiraiya anyway.

I agree with Sadgoob on this matter. Regardless of the statement, Itachi is obviously stronger than Jiraiya, and most people can likely agree to that much. However, I'm more frustrated by the fact that people think that Kishimoto was _such_ a poor writer or was _so_ lacking in foresight, that he shifted his position from Jiraiya being stronger than all of Akatsuki to being weaker than Itachi himself. What I find even more odd is that people choose to believe this is in spite of the fact that Kishimoto had just hyped Itachi through an actual Sannin literally four chapters previously. Like, the sheer stupidity Kishimoto would have to have to do such a thing is mind-boggling.​


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## Sadgoob (Apr 14, 2016)

> What I find even more odd is that people choose to believe this is in spite of the fact that Kishimoto had just hyped Itachi through an actual Sannin literally four chapters previously. Like, the sheer stupidity Kishimoto would have to have to do such a thing is mind-boggling.



Plus Itachi hyped himself, saying that a ninja had to be an Uchiha with the Sharingan to stand a chance against him, which was later implied to be the Akatsuki Leader when Itachi mentioned there was another Mangekyo user.

Literally a chapter or two earlier, shortly after Orochimaru said beating Itachi was an impossible dream, and shortly before Orochimaru was choking out Jiriaya and saying there was still a gap between them.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Gottheim's initial opinion  was that it was Kurama. Shounensuki came in and argued from the manga context, not the language. From the language perspective, Gottheim was deadset that Shounensuki was wrong.
> 
> Then Gottheim argued  with him. You can also tell that both were completely unaware that the printed manga had Sasuke talking about Kurama's massive power side by side with Itachi talking about Kurama's massive power.
> 
> IMO Shounensuki had an agenda, just like you do, just like I do. But it's *completely* disingenuous to pretend it had something to do with raw Japanese and not the context of surrounding manga events.


Alright let's talk dishonesty bro. Gottheim, a more rookie translator to Shounensuki, thought the subject could be Naruto. Shounensuki than discussed it with him, but Gottheim wasn't convinced by Shounensuki, he was convinced by going to various Japanese websites/forums and seeing that the Japanese themselves considered Jiraiya to linguistically be the topic of that sentence. So it wasn't two translators arguing what the topic could be based on context, it was one more senior translator stating the topic was Jiraiya and than supporting that w/ context, and than the less senior translator eventually conceding because native Japanese also read the language the same was Shonensuki.

_Gottheim, "I went through the Japanese Internet (2chan, among others) to see what they think. The general consensus there seems to be that the whole conversation was about Jiraiya, not Naruto (Kyuubi) then Jiraiya as I thought."_



> Or say that "literally every translator thought so." There's so much dishonesty in trying to hype Jiriaya with hype that doesn't even make remote sense to anybody, that it's completely mind-blowing to me.


The one credible translator that thought it may be Kurama on this forum conceeded that he was wrong, and it was referring to Jiraiya. So yes literally every translator on this forum has agreeded the topic is Jiriaya.



> It was Kurama breaking free.
> 
> Itachi and Kisame's reaction to Kurama barely leaking. Kisame called it terrifying, and both showed multiple exclamation marks when feeling it. Kurama breaking out was the worst-case scenario they were talking about.
> 
> Itachi and Kisame's reaction to Jiraiya. They literally did not give a shit. Itachi beat the piss out of Sasuke and used Tsukuyomi, an incredibly draining secret jutsu, on Sasuke right in front of Jiriaya, with his back turned. Kisame was confounded Itachi backed down from Jiraiya, saying Itachi's power was more than enough for Jiraiya despite asking Itachi not to use his eyes.


Again the problem w/ this is Itachi and Kisame were not talking about the worst case scenario, they were talking about the best case scenario. If we follow your logic, and the topic was the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki, that means Kisame definitively considered Naruto out of his league and Itachi thought at best he could draw w/ Naruto. Anyone being objective knows that is nonsense. The best case scenario would be Itachi raping a 13 Yo Kid who couldn't draw on the Kyuubi powers properly yet, and Kisame being vastly superior to that kid as well.

You can't just ignore context the way you continuously. do



> Plus aside from the official viz, you have Japanese translators agreeing that the subject was Kurama. It's actually in a well named thread called Naruto translation errors & fan started rumours compilation.


So basically your argument is dependent on the fact that you found some random dude, after searing the internet for years, and your choosing to take his opinion over that of 2 much more established Translators and the common opinion among the Japanese themselves. Plus you can also add me into the mix as someone who translated the line as well, whose at least as credible as random Naruto-Base poster, and come up w/ the same conclusion that Jiraiya is linguistically (as well as contextually) the logical subject in that sentence. 

The rest of your point being straight lies or already long since debunked points.



Saru said:


> Like I (and I'm sure many others over the years) stated, I'm convinced that they were wary of the Demon Fox, not the benign child hosting its power.​



This doesn't address my point. I know what your position is already no need to repeat it. I'm simply pointing out why it is contextually nonsensical.



> I don't understand why you keep bringing up the translators. They didn't translate anything differently, so they don't help your argument. I may not know Japanese, but I do know common sense, and common sense tells me that the translators were just trying to assign a character to the subject of Itachi and Kisame's conversation using manga context just the same way that you, or I, or anyone else can. They don't have the final say, and their opinion is no better than anyone else's. So, you can stop trying to say that translators agree that it was Jiraiya in order to make your stance come across as more legitimate, because from what I can tell, the clarity of the language had nothing to do with those translators' conclusion.


Because linguistically the sentence structure heavily indicates the subject is Jiraiya, and does not at all support it being Naruto.

It's like if I said My sister swam in the pound. She also swam in the lake. And your like we'll the topic could have been that hobo on the side of street for all we know. (Very basic example, but gets the point across none the less).​


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## Sadgoob (Apr 14, 2016)

> The one credible translator that thought it may be Kurama on this forum conceeded that he was wrong



As I said before, not based on the language. So drop the whole "translators think" nonsense. They don't think what they think based on their language knowledge of the raw statement, but general appraisal of events.



> So basically your argument is dependent on the fact that you found some random dude, after searing the internet for years



Basically your full of tl;dr bull, as usual. It took me 30 seconds to google:


Kirin Rei giving an alternate opinion on the language
Gottheim giving an alternate opinion of the language 
Viz translators giving an alternate opinion on the language
Shounensuki admitting the language was ambiguous.



> Because linguistically the sentence structure heavily indicates the subject is Jiraiya, and does not at all support it being Naruto.



Turrin, that's such bull. Gottheim's initial opinion on the language there is obvious. As is Kirin's on the other site. Ditto for viz translators. Shounensuki didn't argue the language. He argued about what made "sense" from events.

This "because linguistically..." nonsense needs to stop. The language itself clearly leans more toward Kurama, as stated by private translators and the professional team that does it officially. 

Shounensuki based his opinion and argument with Gottheim _*entirely*_ on context of events, which doesn't take language skill, so stop pretending that he did, that you did, or that anybody did.


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## Saru (Apr 14, 2016)

Turrin said:


> It's like if I said My sister swam in the pound. She also swam in the lake. And your like we'll the topic could have been that hobo on the side of street for all we know. (Very basic example, but gets the point across none the less).




Nah, B. I don't have to know Japanese to know that what you're saying ain't right. 

Jiraiya wasn't mentioned until the _*end*_ of the conversation, so I know for a fact that it wasn't obvious who they were talking about at the *beginning* of the conversation just based on "linguistics." Again, I don't need to know Japanese to know this; the sequence of the conversation tells me this much. 

I think that it does become clear who they were talking about in the beginning of the conversation when you consider the context of the previous page spread and the entirety of the manga, though.​


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2016)

I do love how it's about Kurama though 

Then the somehow mention Jiriaya being a sannin . 

Also going on that statement wasn't the whole akatsuki didn't attack Naruto again because he was with Jiriaya thing come up 

And Kakashi was its because they were prepping the jutsu to seal the kyuubi

So no I don't think it was a Kurama factor or that would again have been mentioned in part 2 when Chiyo and Kakashi were talking vs Jiriaya somehow being the subject of the convo 

Naturally denial is strong 

Though I don't see why people are shocked by the statement , retcon happens all the time . Kishi a specialist at it . 

What people need to look at and stop bitching about manga statements are feats and jutsu mechanics when saying who is on whose level 

Put itachi in Jiriaya situation how would he have done ? Better ? Worse ? Those type of things 

Put itachi in minato situation against Obito how would he have done 


Those are the type of arguments I was hoping to see not some translation dick measuring contest 

On that note though I would say if we consider itachi in Jiriaya situation starting from animal path 

Guessing the summons get dealt with easily except cerebrus who blinding won't do much so MS is needed or in the manga perhaps he just gets off panelled since we don't know what Jiriaya did

Then 3 paths show up . First one rushes and should be feinted , either way using just Sharingan I can't see how he deals with all 3 

So say he wins . He is going to get blind sided by the 6 when they all come back after he has defeated the 3 , so tbh 

Do u see him still taking one out and getting it back to konoha ?

A character isn't just considered superior because he can beat a specific person . In straight match up , type matches apply 

Minato will always find it easier to deal with Obito than itachi would , however doesn't mean minato can beat itachi 

Just saying


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## Sadgoob (Apr 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> Nah, B. I don't have to know Japanese to know that what you're saying ain't right.
> 
> Jiraiya wasn't mentioned until the _*end*_ of the conversation, so I know for a fact that it wasn't obvious who they were talking about at the *beginning* of the conversation just based on "linguistics." Again, I don't need to know Japanese to know this; the sequence of the conversation tells me this much.
> 
> I think that it does become clear who they were talking about in the beginning of the conversation when you consider the context of the previous page spread and the entirety of the manga, though.​



He's going to mutter about Japanese use of pronouns being different and that he just knows more than you so you have to trust him, but then:



			
				Gottheim said:
			
		

> The thing is, if Itachi and Kisame had been switching subjects back and forth - Jiraiya, then Naruto ("our target"), then Jiraiya again - even by Japanese standards, they'd have to make such changes explicit to make it clear the previous sentences were about Jiraiya.





			
				Gottheim said:
			
		

> Actually it is. For the sentence to logically go "Jiraiya will murder us" to "we found Naruto" and back to "Jiraiya will chop us both into tiny bits", even a Japanese sentence would have to make some kind of distinction.





			
				Gottheim said:
			
		

> The conversation literally goes I'm out of "..."'s league. But you could handle"...". We found "..." at the ramen shop but caretaker is Jiraiya.
> 
> What is there to suggest that the first two "..." mean Jiraiya, but the "..." in the ramen shop is Naruto?



Plus the viz decision. All of whom I'd peg as much, much more experienced translators than Turrin. Besides, even Shounensuki said:



			
				Shounen said:
			
		

> Because the distinction isn't necessary. The subject can be be taken from context if one thinks logically and uses the information from the manga.



i.e. the language there doesn't solidly support his view, only his interpretation of the surrounding context of manga events.

i.e. the same thing we do reading the English translation.


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## Saru (Apr 14, 2016)

Turrin said:


> This doesn't address my point.




What part didn't I address?



Turrin said:


> Saru he was talking about the best case scenario and still saying it would end in a draw. But if the subject was Naruto wouldn't the best case scenario be that he and Kisame rape Naruto as they did in Canon, because Naruto was still a 13Yo Kid at the time?




No, Itachi didn't say that he would draw in the "best case scenario." Kisame actually implied the exact opposite of that by stating that Itachi might be able to take "him" on.



Please, show me where Itachi says "at best," or "in the best case scenario." 

He doesn't say anything like that. He says "*At the very least*," which means he was saying that _*at the very least*_, Akatsuki and their opponent would hurt each other very badly. There was no "best case scenario" being discussed. I have no idea where you're getting that from. Itachi _*did*_ discuss a worst case scenario, though, and that was that was when Itachi said that Kisame and himself _*might*_ end up drawing with their opponent (_"We might end up killing each other [...]"_).​


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## Itachі (Apr 14, 2016)

I do think it's Jiraiya that they're talking about in that spread, I've always had that impression everytime I've read the scan. What's weird to me is that a lot of people say that Jiraiya > Itachi because of that, but all I see is Itachi saying that they would kill each other or hurt each other badly. That portrays them as equals, if nothing else.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 14, 2016)

Eh, my point is that the language itself is ambiguous and that arguments from authority like "herpa I'm a translator and viz is wrong" do not apply.

The official English translation can be discussed, because it's ambiguous use of pronouns is what appears to be truest to the raw Japanese, which results in various translators disagreeing.

I don't think it's any accident that Itachi was talking about an ambiguous subject directly after (and on the same page spread) Sasuke was wondering what the hell Naruto was, or what huge power was inside of him.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 14, 2016)

I am not really on either side on this. Don't really care much about that statement with so many retcons and Itachi being a good liar. But if they were talking about Kyubi - Itachi's remark about Naruto after they escaped kinda fits. They don't need to be hasty with him considering he is still at a relatively low level as a Jin. And they have enough time to catch him before he fully develops.


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## Saru (Apr 14, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I do think it's Jiraiya that they're talking about in that spread, I've always had that impression everytime I've read the scan. What's weird to me is that a lot of people say that Jiraiya > Itachi because of that, but all I see is Itachi saying that they would kill each other or hurt each other badly. That portrays them as equals, if nothing else.




Well, no, because if Itachi and Kisame were talking about Jiraiya, it would mean that they were suggesting the following:

Jiraiya *>>* Itachi *+* Kisame *+* the rest of the Akatsuki (potentially, because Itachi says "probably")

It's the fact that Itachi said that both he *and* Kisame would draw with "him" in the worst case scenario that implies that "he" is stronger than Itachi alone. Itachi + Kisame *>>* Itachi on his own.​


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## Itachі (Apr 14, 2016)

I don't get the thing about it being Kyubi though. If Itachi with the Mangekyo Sharingan & Kisame with his anti-Biju movepool would have a lot of difficulty with the Kyubi, it conflicts with some other plot elements. Doesn't make sense for Itachi to fear Naruto going Kyubi because he could just suppress Kyubi with his Mangekyo, Kisame could also nab his Chakra with a swipe of Samehada. Either of them could stomp Naruto before the Kyubi became a factor. Also, why would Akatsuki send Hidan & Kakuzu, a much weaker team to capture Naruto?


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## Sadgoob (Apr 14, 2016)

> I don't get the thing about it being Kyubi though. If Itachi with the Mangekyo Sharingan & Kisame with his anti-Biju movepool would have a lot of difficulty with the Kyubi,



This chapter was written literally almost five years before Kishimoto introduced the idea of the Sharingan taking control Kurama. It's highly unlikely he had that in mind, or had invented Susano'o either.

Other things in the manga at the time: tiny sourceless Suiton being Hokage level, 4 Raikiri in a day being absolute max stamina for Jonin, Hiruzen being the god of shinobi and portrayed stronger than Hashirama, etc.

Alternatively, Itachi never did it, so he may have doubted his ability to do so, or he knew Kisame didn't know that factoid, and wanted to dissuade him from taking Kurama for Akatsuki if possible.


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## Itachі (Apr 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> Well, no, because if Itachi and Kisame were talking about Jiraiya, it would mean that they were suggesting the following:
> 
> Jiraiya *>>* Itachi *+* Kisame *+* the rest of the Akatsuki (potentially, because Itachi says "probably")
> 
> It's the fact that Itachi said that both he *and* Kisame would draw with "him" in the worst case scenario that implies that "he" is stronger than Itachi alone.​



Well, it's really not unfeasible for Part 1 standards, except for the backup part. Itachi was an absolute top-tier in Part 1 and so was Jiraiya too, Kisame was a cut below and there's no way that he would have had the Jutsu that he had in Part 2 in Part 1, because he would defeat most of the Part 1 cast with it. Sometimes people like Kisame become a non-factor in a battle between two high-tiers.


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## Mithos (Apr 14, 2016)

I don't think it makes sense that they're talking about the Kyuubi. Even right after Kisame specifically mentions that The Seven Swordsman and the Uchiha pale in comparison to the Densetsu no Sannin. 

Kisame says, "he's in a different league." If he were talking about Naruto/the Kyuubi, it would be odd because he easily swiped Naruto's chakra and rendered him powerless. Jiraiya, however, easily trapped Kisame in the Toad Esophagus, and was going to defeat him if not for Itachi. So when Kisame says, "he's in a different league," to me, it makes the most sense that he's referring to Jiraiya.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 14, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Well, it's really not unfeasible for Part 1 standards, except for the backup part. Itachi was an absolute top-tier in Part 1 and so was Jiraiya too.



This is inaccurate. Itachi was a level(s) above Orochimaru, as Orochimaru stated that beating Itachi was an impossible dream. Orochimaru stated there was a gap between Jiraiya and him, and beat Jiriaya with mutual handicaps.

But even Itachi's tier is second to Kurama, as Kurama took on the entire village, including Prime Hiruzen and Minato, killed a heavy toll, and also resulted in the hyped Fourth Hokage's death.

i.e. Kurama actually took on a ninja like Itachi (Minato) and Akatsuki support (Konoha) and forced a draw. He actually did it. But base Jiraiya? He couldn't even beat Orochimaru, and was never portrayed to be capable of that.



> Kurama
> -
> 4th Hokage
> Prime Hiruzen
> ...


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## Saru (Apr 14, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Well, it's really not unfeasible for Part 1 standards, except for the backup part. Itachi was an absolute top-tier in Part 1 and so was Jiraiya too, Kisame was a cut below and there's no way that he would have had the Jutsu that he had in Part 2 in Part 1, because he would defeat most of the Part 1 cast with it. Sometimes people like Kisame become a non-factor in a battle between two high-tiers.




Fair enough, but you can see why people would say that Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi when they think that Itachi himself said that he would draw with Jiraiya even with help (however much help it was). And yeah, the fact that Itachi said that with additional backup beyond Kisame the outcome probably wouldn't change makes it pretty unfeasible, IMO, especially given the hype that Itachi _already_ had at that point.




Mithos said:


> I don't think it makes sense that they're talking about the Kyuubi. Even right after Kisame specifically mentions that The Seven Swordsman and the Uchiha pale in comparison to the Densetsu no Sannin.




Kisame was talking about fame, though. 




> Kisame says, "he's in a different league." *If he were talking about Naruto/the Kyuubi*, it would be odd because he easily swiped Naruto's chakra and rendered him powerless. Jiraiya, however, easily trapped Kisame in the Toad Esophagus, and was going to defeat him if not for Itachi. So when Kisame says, "he's in a different league," to me, it makes the most sense that he's referring to Jiraiya.




Do you seriously doubt that Kurama is in a different league than Kisame? Kisame found Kurama's chakra manifesting in _*KN0*_ Naruto terrifying. The emergence of the Sixth, Seventh, or Eighth Tail would have been an absolute nightmare. It's true that Kisame was able to take Kurama's chakra with Samehada, but he wouldn't have been able to do that in a worst possible case scenario, where Minato's seal weakened and Naruto went on a rampage.​


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## Itachі (Apr 14, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> This is inaccurate. Itachi was a level(s) above Orochimaru, as Orochimaru stated that beating Itachi was an impossible dream. Orochimaru stated there was a gap between Jiraiya and him, and beat Jiriaya with mutual handicaps.
> 
> But even Itachi's tier is second to Kurama, as Kurama took on the entire village, including Prime Hiruzen and Minato, killed a heavy toll, and also resulted in the hyped Fourth Hokage's death.
> 
> i.e. Kurama actually took on a ninja like Itachi (Minato) and Akatsuki support (Konoha) and forced a draw. He actually did it. But base Jiraiya? He couldn't even beat Orochimaru, and was never portrayed to be capable of that.





Sadgoob said:


> This chapter was written literally almost five years before Kishimoto introduced the idea of the Sharingan taking control Kurama. It's highly unlikely he had that in mind, or had invented Susano'o either.
> 
> Other things in the manga at the time: tiny sourceless Suiton being Hokage level, 4 Raikiri in a day being absolute max stamina for Jonin, Hiruzen being the god of shinobi and portrayed stronger than Hashirama, etc.
> 
> Alternatively, Itachi never did it, so he may have doubted his ability to do so, or he knew Kisame didn't know that factoid, and wanted to dissuade him from taking Kurama for Akatsuki if possible.



Doesn't matter when either Itachi or Kisame could stomp Naruto before the Kyubi becomes a factor.



Saru said:


> Fair enough, but you can see why people would say that Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi when they think that Itachi himself said that he would draw with Jiraiya even with help (however much help it was). And yeah, the fact that Itachi said that with additional backup beyond Kisame the outcome probably wouldn't change makes it pretty unfeasible, IMO, especially given the hype that Itachi _already_ had at that point.​



True. I think that Jiraiya tieing with Part 1 Itachi and Kisame is feasible, but Jiraiya gets stomped when faced with Part 2 Itachi and Kisame. I do see the statement as ridiculous when factoring in the backup part though.


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## Saru (Apr 14, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Doesn't matter when either Itachi or Kisame could stomp Naruto before the Kyubi becomes a factor.




Well, there are things that prevented Itachi and Kisame from doing that:

*a)* Itachi is a pacifist, and he was calling the shots.

*b)* Sasuke showed up before they _could_ stomp Naruto.​


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## Itachі (Apr 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> Well, there are things that prevented Itachi and Kisame from doing that:
> 
> *a)* Itachi is a pacifist, and he was calling the shots.
> 
> *b)* Sasuke showed up before they _could_ stomp Naruto.​



But why would they be worried about the Kyubi after that? Sure that Jiraiya was guarding Naruto but it's not like Jiraiya was constantly around Naruto. It doesn't make sense for them to directly take on Naruto without saying a word about the supposed danger and then talk about it later. They had no qualms with casually approaching Naruto.


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## Saru (Apr 14, 2016)

Itachі said:


> But why would they be worried about the Kyubi after that? Sure that Jiraiya was guarding Naruto but it's not like Jiraiya was constantly around Naruto. It doesn't make sense for them to directly take on Naruto without saying a word about the supposed danger and then talk about it later. They had no qualms with casually approaching Naruto.




I'm confused... They had the conversation about Naruto before they found him; they didn't talk about whoever "he" was afterwards either. Why would they talk about the danger when they're talking to Naruto? If Itachi wanted to persuade Naruto to come along without a fight, talking about how dangerous he was probably wouldn't be the best way of doing that. When Kisame felt as though Itachi was beating around the bush, he interjected and told Itachi that he was moving too slowly, threatening to cut off Naruto's legs so he couldn't run around. 

Kisame sounded anxious.

Another thing to note is that Kisame looked concerned in the panel above when talking about whoever they were talking about. Then, when Jiraiya's name is mentioned, Kisame smiles, seeming to relish in the possibility of fighting Jiraiya.​


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## Itachі (Apr 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> I'm confused... They had the conversation about Naruto before they found him; they didn't talk about whoever "he" was afterwards either. Why would they talk about the danger when they're talking to Naruto? If Itachi wanted to persuade Naruto to come along without a fight, talking about how dangerous he was probably wouldn't be the best way of doing that. When Kisame felt as though Itachi was beating around the bush, he interjected and told Itachi chop-chop, threatening to cut off Naruto's legs so he wouldn't run around. Kisame sounded kind of anxious.​



They weren't thinking about it either, only thing that was mentioned was that Kisame found the Kyubi's Chakra terrifying, which didn't make a difference. 



They weren't fazed at all by Naruto.


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## Saru (Apr 14, 2016)

Why would they be _thinking_ about it? That would've been redundant. Kishimoto had just made Itachi and Kisame have an entire conversation and spent the better part of two volumes explaining how powerful Naruto truly was. What else would there be for Itachi and Kisame to contribute by "thinking about it?" Kishimoto has, in fact, _*never*_ shown what Itachi was thinking as far as I can remember. He's a mysterious character. As for Kisame, he had already expressed fear. I don't know what else he could have pondered in that situation that would have been both appropriate for the pacing and not too revealing.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 14, 2016)

Itachі said:


> They weren't thinking about it either, only thing that was mentioned was that Kisame found the Kyubi's Chakra terrifying, which didn't make a difference.



The Viz translation doesn't even say anything about it being terrifying. Simply that the air was ripe with Chakra.


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## Itachі (Apr 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> Why would they be _thinking_ about it? That would've been redundant. Kishimoto had just made Itachi and Kisame have an entire conversation and spent the better part of two volumes explaining how powerful Naruto truly was. What else would there be for Itachi and Kisame to contribute by "thinking about it?" Kishimoto has, in fact, _*never*_ shown what Itachi was thinking as far as I can remember. He's a mysterious character. As for Kisame, he had already expressed fear. I don't know what else he could have pondered in that situation that would have been both appropriate for the pacing and not too revealing.



There wasn't even a "better take him out quickly", "we shouldn't take him lightly" or "we should be wary of the Kyubi's Chakra". I don't see why it has to 'contribute' when many characters have had thoughts like "I'm running out of Chakra" or "That mode is dangerous". Kisame and Itachi treated Naruto like trash, there's absolutely no way that Naruto could threaten them. Kisame literally stopped any Kyubi interference with a swipe of his sword and proceeded to say that Naruto wasn't going to give him any trouble. I don't see why they would shit themselves over Naruto when there would be a very small chance of the Kyubi coming out to play. 



FlamingRain said:


> The Viz translation doesn't even say anything about it being terrifying. Simply that the air was ripe with Chakra.



Ah, thanks.


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## Hazuki (Apr 14, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Who cares what Itachi said while under doulbe cover? Maybe fans should read the context of a scene and the underlying things beseeching the scene.
> 
> Itachi didn't wanna fucking fight Jiraiya.
> 
> .


don't forget that even if he was a nice guy he had no problem to kill all his family and clan 

his double covers didn't stop him to try to kill kakashi kurenai and asuma ( if it wasn't for gai and ambu who were coming)
he was confident to kill those 3 but against jiraiya he didn't even try 

his double covers don't justify that , especially because he was over confidient to take on kakashi ans the rest ..

also kishimoto put jiraiya as a serious opponent against the akatsuki leader pain  ( the strongest akatsuki)
so in the end , there is good and logic reason why itachi wasn't sure he could fight jiraiya


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## Saru (Apr 14, 2016)

Itachі said:


> There wasn't even a "better take him out quickly", "we shouldn't take him lightly" or "we should be wary of the Kyubi's Chakra". I don't see why it has to 'contribute' when many characters have had thoughts like "I'm running out of Chakra" or "That mode is dangerous". Kisame and Itachi treated Naruto like trash, there's absolutely no way that Naruto could threaten them. Kisame literally stopped any Kyubi interference with a swipe of his sword and proceeded to say that Naruto wasn't going to give him any trouble. I don't see why they would shit themselves over Naruto when there would be a very small chance of the Kyubi coming out to play.




Kisame told Itachi that he was going too slow, and he was eager to cut off Naruto's legs. I think that's another way of saying "we should hurry up."  

I can also ask you the same sort of questions: where's the "better take him before Jiraiya comes back" or "we should watch out for Jiraiya?" Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because Itachi and Kisame didn't constantly *mention* that Naruto / Kurama was a threat throughout their encounter--which probably lasted a few seconds at best before being interrupted multiple times--doesn't mean they didn't consider Naruto / Kurama a threat. 

I tried to provide two logical justifications for character statements in this particular situation: *1)* the statement would have to contribute something to the *plot* or *2)* the statement would have to be appropriate for the literary pacing while not revealing too much information (i.e. building suspense, but not plot). If Kisame and Itachi had a whole entire conversation about Naruto / Kurama, there would be no more need for them to continually comment on Naruto's chakra; it would be redundant (i.e. rehashiing the *plot*). The need for mysteriousness (i.e. *suspense*) should also be apparent, and in fact, Kishimoto _rarely_ gives insight into a villain's thoughts if they aren't about to die or have a serious battle (especially when those villains are new and/or extremely powerful).

Take, for example, the Gokage's reaction to Madara Uchiha. We didn't see into the head of every one of the Gokage when Madara was before them at either--at least not at first. The Gokage knew that Madara was capable of controlling the Nine-Tailed Fox, they knew that Madara had created the Valley of the End, and one of them even knew what Madara's strength was like from personal experience. Yet, none of the Gokage were afraid to go into battle with Madara, nor were they gawking at his strength upon first sight. It wasn't until they had some sort of experience with Madara that the Gokage showed any sign of worry or *outwardly* acknowledged Madara's capabilities. The same is true for Naruto. Itachi and KIsame weren't *outwardly* concerned in front of Naruto. It wasn't until Naruto had roused Kurama's chakra that Itachi or Kisame began to show any concern. However, if Naruto had grown the Eighth Tail, Itachi and KIsame obviously would have grown concerned or acknowledged the power within Naruto more readily. You mentioned that Kisame took care of Naruto, but Kisame's statement that Naruto shouldn't give them *any more* trouble is acknowledgement of the fact that Naruto _*could*_ give them trouble.

As for the seal weakening enough for Kurama to come out: any chance is still a chance, no matter how small. Minimizing that risk to make it out to be something that's negligible is not a logical way to look at that scenario from the perspective of Itachi and Kisame. Various characters being concerned about the possibility of Minato's seal breaking and Naruto losing control is a recurring theme, even in Part I.

And, again, Itachi's inner thoughts have _*never been revealed*_ to the readers as far as I can remember. It would kind of spoil everything if they were. Aside from that, there probably wasn't a lot of plot for Itachi and Kisame to think _about_ at that point, as I doubt that Kishimoto had intricately developed the Bijuu, Jinchuuriki, Sharingan Genjutsu, Itachi's abilities (and you yourself suggested that Kishimoto may not have thought of Susano'o by that point), etc. If that was the case, then less dialogue about those things is more. Kishimoto had Itachi and Kisame react to Naruto's chakra with a wary expression, and then had Kisame make a comment about Naruto's chakra. That amount of acknowledgement was likely sufficient for both the manga in the state it was and for the purpose of building suspense. 

That said, why do I still believe that Kishimoto didn't simply have a change of heart or change his mind about how strong he wanted these characters to be? Well, aside from the fact that Jiraiya being stronger than all of Akatsuki is ludicrous, it's because figuring out how strong you want your characters to be relative to each other is one of the first things you would do as a writer. Sure, figuring out all of the details surrounding those characters, figuring out all of their abilities, and figuring out how to get rid of them (*cough* Madaa *cough*) may be a difficult and fluid process, but figuring out how strong you want a character to be relative to the other characters is a very fundamental element of character conception.​


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## Sadgoob (Apr 14, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> The Viz translation doesn't even say anything about it being terrifying. Simply that the air was ripe with Chakra.



I got some viz for your bro. Kurama's rep reaction:



Jiraiya's rep reaction:



Kisame's take on Jiraiya's rep (below a tired Itachi) :



Orochimaru's take on Jiraiya's rep (always pathetic relative to Oro) :



Even freaking Kabuto isn't afraid of Jiriaya's rep:



And yet I'm supposed to believe Jiraiya's rep > Akatsuki? Not Kurama?


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## Sadgoob (Apr 14, 2016)

In fact, a Kabuto-class shinobi thinking they can take on a Sannin relatively well, and being _shown_ to take on a Sannin relatively well against Tsunade, calls into question Kisame's power, which people put below Sannin.

If Tsunade didn't get away "scott-free" against Kabuto, and it took her time, then the same being said about Kisame needing time to beat Kakashi does not necessarily put Kisame beneath the Sannin power level.

Especially given Itachi asked Kisame at the start to not attract attention with his moves, or to overdo it i.e. making Kisame hold back.



Itachi's use of the word "spar" and Kisame declaring he'd "cut Kakashi to ribbons" also indicates that he was planning on just using taijutsu, as he had been with Asuma, and not use giant suitons.



			
				databook said:
			
		

> Right Picture: For the sake of Akatsuki's mission, Kisame is avoiding showy movements as much as possible. But in all of his speech and conduct, his natural ruthlessness appears and disappears.





			
				databook said:
			
		

> Every nation's intelligence keeps a "Bingo Book" where they record particulars of observation of dangerous ninjas. Despite being in this, Kisame commits many large crimes such as daimyo killing *and village destruction*. It is recorded that you should exercise special caution around him, as he is an "S Rank Principal Criminal".



Yup, not Elite Jonin level. Hiruzen compared Orochimaru's power to being able to take out a small village. That statement is basically the hallmark of Sannin single-man power in war. Kisame has that hype as well.



			
				databook said:
			
		

> Picture: He shows a sense of awe for Itachi's ability, and Kisame worries about the welfare of his body...



Dat Itachi hype.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 14, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I got some viz for your bro.



Great, so you can back up what I said.

Though after that you proceeded to compare the first move of a Jinchūriki to a realization that Jiraiya had returned to protect Naruto, not their reps. The comment by Kisame following Itachi's use of the Mangekyō to bust them out of Jiraiya's first move would if anything support those saying Jiraiya was likely the subject, though, because in that conversation Kisame had stated that while he probably couldn't match their opponent Itachi probably could. Kisame was the one who demonstrated that Naruto was a non-issue, Jiraiya was the only ninja in that hotel besides Itachi and Kisame that was even in combat-ready condition, so when it was Itachi's power that prompted Kisame to ask why the Akatsuki retreated that implies that the fighter the Akatsuki pair was initially talking about was Jiraiya instead of Naruto.



> And yet I'm supposed to believe Jiraiya's rep > Akatsuki? Not Kurama?



Itachi and Kisame's behavior following, information provided with the supplementary guidebooks, and Kakashi's hypothesis following even that in the manga again, as well as how others knowing that Naruto was the Jinchūriki of the Nine Tails still treated Naruto like a snot-nosed brat make it far more likely that the Akatsuki pair was referring to Jiraiya at the beginning of that conversation instead of Naruto, yes. If the language is admittedly ambiguous the opinions of the translators stop mattering any more than any other person's and Viz's no exception, however I wouldn't argue that Viz was of the opinion that the subject was Naruto based on how they chose to translate it there, because they sure didn't produce their anime rendition of that conversation as if the subject was Naruto despite the Japanese dub matching the Japanese text used on the manga. The diction used for the Viz translation of Itachi and Kisame's dialogue doesn't necessarily suggest otherwise anyway as people forgo initial subject change in conversation all the time and it would have become apparent to Itachi who was being referred to when once Kisame continued with _"his babysitter"_.

So yeah, you can use the Viz translation and should still believe that the fighter Itachi and Kisame were concerned about was the ninja whose reputation was such that stated-to-be-the-strongest-Akatsuki-member Pain having his hands full with Jiraiya simply meant that he lived up to it, instead of a child Jinchūriki who by request of the Third Hokage wasn't even to be told they were a Jinchūriki last time Itachi was in Konoha.



> If Tsunade didn't get away "scott-free" against Kabuto, and it took her time, then the same being said about Kisame needing time to beat Kakashi does not necessarily put Kisame beneath the Sannin power level.



If you want to compare a Tsunade who hadn't been active as a ninja for decades and wasn't able to so much as summon to Kisame then go ahead.

Kabuto-fight Tsunade ~ Kisame.

In-shape/on-form = better Tsunade
Non-hemophobic = able to summon = better Tsunade
Non-hemophobic = Sōzō Saisei worth using = better Tsunade
Byakugō no Jutsu completed = better Tsunade

There is a similar upscaling regarding would-be-Kabuto-fight Jiraiya.

Once more revived as one of the Sannin Tsunade = in a different league compared to Kisame. Tsunade ~ Jiraiya = Kisame was right that Jiraiya was in a different league compared to Kisame. Itachi > Orochimaru (to the point that Orochimaru wouldn't be able to rope Itachi in when it's been repeatedly stated that capturing a ninja alive requires a lot more ability than simply killing that ninja) = Kisame was right that Itachi might be able to take on Jiraiya (that may have even been the basis for that opinion). Events at the inn = status quo for those estimates.

There you have it.


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## Empathy (Apr 14, 2016)

Even assuming Itachi was talking about Jiraiya, what difference does it make? Itachi obviously didn't want to have to fight and potentially kill one of Konoha's greatest heroes, and he needed an excuse to leave. Kisame clearly had his reservations that a Sannin was strong enough that they had to retreat (they had a Sannin in their group, who they sent into a perpetual state of hiding so that they can't find and kill him), and Itachi was just hyping Jiraiya by saying he really was that strong so that he could leave without having fight him in front of Kisame and trying not to kill him, whilst Jiraiya tries his very best to fight them to the death (and considering Jiraiya nearly defeated Pain and Konan, this would've been problematic). If you're going to debate Itachi and Jiraiya's equality, I'd go with Naruto and Sasuke's SM/MS parallels and the fact that their final fights and deaths occurred essentially simultaneously.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 15, 2016)

Gonna go ahead and clarify that I think Itachi is more comparable to Minato than Jiraiya, and have considered that the case since I started posting on narutoforums.

For the _umpteenth_ time I'm not arguing that Jiraiya ≥ Itachi.


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## Empathy (Apr 15, 2016)

I didn't intend to imply you were.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 15, 2016)

Empathy said:


> I didn't intend to imply you were.



I was in the middle of that post when you posted. It wasn't directed at you.


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## Empathy (Apr 15, 2016)

Well then, negged for admitting you intended to double-post.


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## Saru (Apr 15, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Even assuming Itachi was talking about Jiraiya, what difference does it make? Itachi obviously didn't want to have to fight and potentially kill one of Konoha's greatest heroes, and he needed an excuse to leave. Kisame clearly had his reservations that a Sannin was strong enough that they had to retreat (they had a Sannin in their group, who they sent into a perpetual state of hiding so that they can't find and kill him), and Itachi was just hyping Jiraiya by saying he really was that strong so that he could leave without having fight him in front of Kisame and trying not to kill him, whilst Jiraiya tries his very best to fight them to the death (and considering Jiraiya nearly defeated Pain and Konan, this would've been problematic). If you're going to debate Itachi and Jiraiya's equality, I'd go with Naruto and Sasuke's SM/MS parallels and the fact that their final fights and deaths occurred essentially simultaneously.




I understand where you're coming from with this train of thought, but this entire explanation seems highly convoluted and tenuous at best due to the number of assumptions that it makes. Yes, Itachi's statement (assuming he was referring to Jiraiya) can be explained in a way that makes better sense in the context of the manga, but then you have to make the assumption that Itachi was lying not once, but twice (once to Kisame before finding Naruto and a second time to Kisame after escaping Jiraiya's Toad Mouth Bind), while also making the assumption that Itachi knew that Jiraiya would come back (or lead him there) after finding the woman he had placed under genjutsu.  Sure, it all sounds plausible, but I doubt that Kishimoto had all of these things going on the in the back of his head or that Itachi would be capable of fooling Kisame so easily. Kisame was actually the one who hyped their opponent up, because _Kisame_ was the one who doubted his ability to defeat that opponent, so the idea that Itachi was trying to scare Kisame doesn't really make sense either. Unless, of course, you want to make _yet another assumption_ and assume that Itachi had been hyping Jiraiya up off-panel, before the part of the conversation that the readers saw.

... It's a mess, to say the least. That's not even considering how ludicrous the implication of the statement was if talking about Jiraiya. Jiraiya *>>* Akatsuki? I think not. Not even Kisame would fall for that. There was an actual Sannin in Akatsuki who admitted inferiority to Itachi.

Akatsuki referring to Naruto/Kurama is so much more logical and straightforward that it's frankly refreshing for me to consider that possibility after having thought through the web of assumptions above. The other reason that I think that this interpretation makes more sense is that it sets up a better parallel between Itachi and Minato (who I believe work better as a parallel than Itachi and Jiraiya _overall_), as it suggests that only _they_ are capable of taking on Kurama at that point in the manga. While I do understand that Kishimoto is not perfect, and he does appear to have had some changes of heart over the course of writing the manga (as anyone writing a story this long might), I do think that Kishimoto had a solid idea of where he wanted his *characters* to stand relative to each other, even if he didn't know exactly what their abilities would be or how he would get rid of them.

I think that Sadgoob made a good point in another thread that, if you were to take everything that we know about every character, including feats, hype, portrayal, and supplementary information like the Databooks, then compared all of that information side-by-side, you would be under the impression that the "power levels" in the manga, so to speak, broke down like this:

Kurama
--
Minato
Itachi
--
Sannin
Hiruzen
--
Akatsuki
Elite Jounin

Which also makes sense if we assume that Itachi and Kisame were talking about Naruto/Kurama.​


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> As I said before, not based on the language. So drop the whole "translators think" nonsense.
> .


He changed his opinion based on how the Japanese people themselves interpreted the language. So yes based on the language.



> They don't think what they think based on their language knowledge of the raw statement, but general appraisal of events.


Yes they absolutely do.



> Basically your full of tl;dr bull, as usual. It took me 30 seconds to google:
> Kirin Rei giving an alternate opinion on the language
> Gottheim giving an alternate opinion of the language
> Viz translators giving an alternate opinion on the language
> Shounensuki admitting the language was ambiguous.


1) Kirin Rei = Random Naruto Base Poster w/ no credentials whatsoever
2) Gottheim agreed the topic was Jiriaya in the end
3) The Viz translator never made any statement, so that's a straight lie on your part
4) Unless i'm unaware of a specific comment from Shounensuki she did not say the text was ambiguous ever, and had said from the very beginning that she was absolute certain the topic was Jiraiya and gave both linguistic reasoning and contextual reasoning to support (not just contextual as your trying to pretend).



> Turrin, that's such bull. Gottheim's initial opinion on the language there is obvious. As is Kirin's on the other site. Ditto for viz translators. Shounensuki didn't argue the language. He argued about what made "sense" from events.


1) someone who knows nothing of the Japanese language and therefore has no basis to make any comment on the linguistics whatsoever, shouldn't call the opinion on the linguistics of someone who can actually read the language BS.

2) Kirin is a nobody, so gtfo w/ that

3) Viz didn't make any comment so that's a lie

4) Shounsensuki and Gottheim both thought the topic was Jiraiya for linguistic reasons in the end



> The language itself clearly leans more toward Kurama,* as stated by private translators and the professional team that does it officially.*


Please explain to me how the language leans more towards Kurama, and I want you to demonstrate to me an understanding of the Japanese language in doing so. And  the bold is just a straight up lie.



Saru said:


> Nah, B. I don't have to know Japanese to know that what you're saying ain't right.
> 
> Jiraiya wasn't mentioned until the _*end*_ of the conversation, so I know for a fact that it wasn't obvious who they were talking about at the *beginning* of the conversation just based on "linguistics." Again, I don't need to know Japanese to know this; the sequence of the conversation tells me this much.
> 
> I think that it does become clear who they were talking about in the beginning of the conversation when you consider the context of the previous page spread and the entirety of the manga, though.​


The english translation sounds more ambiguous than the actual raw Japanese text is. Unfortunately some of the nuance of the actual raw Japanese is often lost for the sake of raw text being converted to flow better in english, but the topic being Jiriaya in the Japanese text is extremely clear.

I've spoken about it before, but the topic of the entire statement is "opponent" ["相手"], and Jiraiya is the this "opponent", because later when referring to the Sannin reputation they also reference that person as the "opponent" ["相手"]. So the "opponent" ["相手"] is consistently referenced as Jiraiya.

"アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる*["相手"]*"

"If it's you somehow or other you could do something against that *["opponent"]*"

Than Later, 

「ラーメン屋で　やっと見付けたはいいが…お守りが　あの゛伝説の三忍゛とは」
「彼が*["相手"]*では゛木ノ葉のうちは一族゛も゛霧の忍刀七人衆゛の名もかすんでしまう」

"It was good we finally found them by the ramen store, but... his guardian is of those 'Legendary Three Ninja' "
"He, as an *["opponent"]*, makes 'Konoha's Uchiha clan' and the 'Seven Shinobi Swordmen of the Mist' seem like nothing."

Not to mention as Shounsenuki herself pointed out the topic shift would be too abrupt linguistically if they were referring to anyone else but Jiriaya as well.

And Naruto being the topic contextually is nonsense as I already explained to you, because Kisame/Itachi were talking about the best case scenario (not the worst), and you choose to ignore my point twice now.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Even assuming Itachi was talking about Jiraiya, what difference does it make? Itachi obviously didn't want to have to fight and potentially kill one of Konoha's greatest heroes, and he needed an excuse to leave. Kisame clearly had his reservations that a Sannin was strong enough that they had to retreat (they had a Sannin in their group, who they sent into a perpetual state of hiding so that they can't find and kill him), and Itachi was just hyping Jiraiya by saying he really was that strong so that he could leave without having fight him in front of Kisame and trying not to kill him, whilst Jiraiya tries his very best to fight them to the death (and considering Jiraiya nearly defeated Pain and Konan, this would've been problematic). If you're going to debate Itachi and Jiraiya's equality, I'd go with Naruto and Sasuke's SM/MS parallels and the fact that their final fights and deaths occurred essentially simultaneously.


Kisame, "why, was retreat necessary..." "....if it's you...."

Kisame says, "アナタなら", I.E. "If it's you". This is the same thing he says in the previous scene when discussing Itachi vs Jiraiya. 

"アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手"

Kisame, "If it's you somehow or other you could do something against that opponent"


And Itachi never disagree with this sentiment. Instead in response he agrees with Kisame saying "Yeah" [ああ]. He goes on to of course say that he could be killed though and a good scenario would be mutual death. But he never once disagrees with Kisame's sentiment that he can indeed "do something against" the "opponent" ["相手"]

So anyway, when Kisame says "アナタなら" "If it's you" after they retreat, he is doing nothing more than repeating a sentiment Itachi already agreed with, that Itachi could have put up a fight against Jiraiya so why did they retreat. 

Which is why the Itachi-fan perception of that exchange is so stupid, because they present it as Kisame changing his opinion and now believing Itachi was stronger than Jiriaya, but in reality the actual text is literally demonstrating the exact opposite that Kisame's is not changing his opinion whatsoever but actually restating it.

Additionally while on the subject of how greatly the raw text shuts down Itachi-fan perception, the fact that Itachi agrees with Kisame's sentiment that he could put up a fight against Jiraiya, also makes the idea that he lied to Kisame in that instance retarded, as it offers no real deterrent for going after Naruto or fighting Jiriaya. Who cares if a fight to the bitter end between the three could end in everyone dying, their mission isn't to kill Jiriaya, their mission is to capture Naruto. So Itachi offers absolutely no reason why he can't take on Jiraiya, while Kisame is left having to nab Naruto who is absolute fodder to him. Which is exactly why Kisame questions the necessity of retreat, while invoking his previous sentiment that Itachi could fight competently against Jiraiya.

And that is percisely why Itachi does not answer Kisame by saying, we had to flee because Jiraiya is too strong, but rather tells him:

Itachi, "If it's Naruto presently there is no need to rush..." "....besides, presently a place... to rest my body is an absolute necessity" 

Itachi, "Let alone Tsukuyomi..."I was forced to use Amaterasu"

Reactions: Like 2


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## ARGUS (Apr 15, 2016)

Honestly, Kisames feats trump most of the sannins, despite the part 1 statement of him being inferior to sannin level ninja 

 -- he was able to overwhelm V2 bee, who can clown any of the sannin in a 1v1, bar possibly SM Jiraiya 
 -- forming giant ass water domes that suck your chakra dry and completely render you useless in close quarters 
 -- forming a giant ass shark that absorbs any of your oncomign attack and just gets bigger and stronger 

he is physically above all the sannin, ninjutsu is mostly ineffective against him. and if he catches any of them iin the waterdome they are done for.


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## Saru (Apr 15, 2016)

Turrin said:


> The english translation sounds more ambiguous than the actual raw Japanese text is. Unfortunately some of the nuance of the actual raw Japanese is often lost for the sake of raw text being converted to flow better in english, but the topic being Jiriaya in the Japanese text is extremely clear.
> 
> I've spoken about it before, but the topic of the entire statement is "opponent" ["相手"], and Jiraiya is the this "opponent", because later when referring to the Sannin reputation they also reference that person as the "opponent" ["相手"]. So the "opponent" ["相手"] is consistently referenced as Jiraiya.
> 
> ...




Thanks for posting the raw.

Two things: 

*a)* I still spot a potential subject change (bolded above)

*b)* it sounds like you're saying they used the word opponent twice, which isn't really an indication that they were referring to the same person. It can still be interpreted as being two different opponents if that's the case.

So, I'm convinced that nothing conclusive will come out of linguistics, because the statement is ambiguous (and the VIZ supports this, as they seemed to have left it that way when _they could have easily made it more clear_).




> And Naruto being the topic contextually is nonsense as I already explained to you, because Kisame/Itachi were talking about the best case scenario (not the worst), and you choose to ignore my point twice now.




I mean, I responded to you, and you didn't bother to quote my post, so I assume that you either can't or won't address my response.​


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## Empathy (Apr 15, 2016)

Saru said:


> I understand where you're coming from with this train of thought, but this entire explanation seems highly convoluted and tenuous at best due to the number of assumptions that it makes. Yes, Itachi's statement (assuming he was referring to Jiraiya) can be explained in a way that makes better sense in the context of the manga, but then you have to make the assumption that Itachi was lying not once, but twice (once to Kisame before finding Naruto and a second time to Kisame after escaping Jiraiya's Toad Mouth Bind), while also making the assumption that Itachi knew that Jiraiya would come back (or lead him there) after finding the woman he had placed under genjutsu.​



What would Itachi's first lie to Kisame have been exactly? I imagine Itachi probably had to lie quite often by being a member of Akatsuki to spy on them without actually contributing to them taking over the world, but also not being seen as a liability. So lying to Kisame more than once isn't something I'd say disproves anything. Didn't he basically do the same thing with Gai, saying that they wouldn't want to face him out in the open like this in the middle of Konoha?



> Sure, it all sounds plausible, but I doubt that Kishimoto had all of these things going on the in the back of his head or that Itachi would be capable of fooling Kisame so easily. Kisame was actually the one who hyped their opponent up, because _Kisame_ was the one who doubted his ability to defeat that opponent, so the idea that Itachi was trying to scare Kisame doesn't really make sense either. Unless, of course, you want to make _yet another assumption_ and assume that Itachi had been hyping Jiraiya up off-panel, before the part of the conversation that the readers saw.



You mean to say that Kishi didn't have the idea that Itachi was a good guy all along from chapter one? That's blasphemous, sir. Regardless, whether it was planned and sat on for 400 hundred chapters or not, the reveal retroactively affects the motivation behind all of Itachi's actions, and his visit to Konoha was no exception (it was to ostensibly to remind Danzo he was still alive, even if you think Danzo hadn't yet been imagined in part I). 



> ... It's a mess, to say the least. That's not even considering how ludicrous the implication of the statement was (if talking about Jiraiya). Jiraiya *>>* Akatsuki? I think not. Not even Kisame would fall for that. There was an actual Sannin in Akatsuki who admitted inferiority to Itachi.



Coming from Itachi, who Kisame acknowledged as his superior and pretty much obeyed his every decision, I think Kisame would believe just about anything if Itachi was the one telling it to him. Clearly Kisame didn't think retreat was actually necessary for Itachi, but Itachi vouched for Jiraiya's strength, saying that a fight between them would leave both close to death, and the addition of more Akatsuki members wouldn't change that outcome; basically, Itachi was trying to say that it was out of their control (even if it wasn't), and calling another pair for back-up so they could kill Jiraiya and capture the Kyuubi would be futile. That way, Itachi didn't have to come back to Konoha and actually capture the Kyuubi. 

Itachi off-panel having to hype Jiraiya wouldn't surprise me if the assumption had to be made. Naruto traveled alone with Jiraiya for years, so if Itachi's excuse for not capturing the Kyuubi is just that the Kyuubi is too strong for him and he's not up to the challenge, then Itachi is not doing his job and should no longer be a member of Akatsuki; but if his excuse is that one of the legendary Sannin is his constant bodyguard, and that Jiraiya is actually much stronger than you guys (Akatsuki) can imagine, in addition to whatever complications capturing the Kyuubi's jinchuuriki entails, then Itachi putting off capturing Naruto seems a lot more plausible (in addition to them not needing the last bijuu right away in the first place). Itachi being a good guy all along and hyping Jiraiya as the reason he didn't capture Naruto actually makes even _more_ sense retroactively, even if you don't believe Kishi had that twist in mind all along. If he's only using Kurama as an excuse, then he's just unwilling to do his job.



> Akatsuki referring to Naruto/Kurama is so much more logical and straightforward that it's frankly refreshing for me to consider that possibility after having thought through the web of assumptions above.​



I think FlamingRain brought up a good point about Kakashi later assuming Jiraiya's presence over the time-skip as Akatsuki's deterrent and the fact that the people who knew Naruto was the Kyuubi's jinchuuriki still treated him as a weakling.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2016)

I also don't see why it's so hard for people to come to grips w/ Jiraiya being a dangerous opponent for Itachi. The manga all but spoon fed the reason to fans. Jiraiya managed to acquire one of the greatest and most iconic powers in the manga [Sennin Modo]. A power, which Itach both already knew about and clearly both feared as well as respected, evident by his reaction to the mere possibility that Kabuto could use said power. A power, that allowed Naruto to rival a Sasuke who inturn possessed the same main power of Itachi [Mangekyo Sharingan]. A power that Orochimaru, who Itachi defeated, could not achieve, and potentially did not know Jiraiya achieved or perhaps even believed Jiraiya could achieve to the extent that he did.

You put this together, and you end up w/ a much clearer and direct explanation for the statements in the manga. Itachi, a character who has consistently been played up as having a high capability for deductive reasoning and reading his opponents as well as a wealth of knowledge, could have suspected that Jiraiya unlike Orochimaru could actually utilize Sennin Modo. Considering Itachi's respect for the power of the Mode, that would make him consider Jiraiya a very dangerous enemy that depending on his mastery of said mode, could make him range from more powerful than him to them being relatively close. Orochimaru being less wise than Itachi and not knowing about Jiriaya having Sennin Modo or not knowing the extent of Jiraiya's capabilities w/ Senjutsu, as well as being prone to underestimate Jiraiya following the NaruSasu dynamic, and  potentially only having fought Base-Jiraiya, arrogantly considered himself superior. 

Thus you end up w/ a plausible reason for why Itach > Orochimaru, but Itachi thinks Jiraiya >= to him, and Orochimaru thinks he is > him.

This is way more straight forward and fitting with what has been contextually shown in the manga; than assuming Itachi believes even in the best case scenario he's going to draw w/ a 13 Yo or believing Itachi told a lie that doesn't really even logically accomplish anything. Just saying 



Saru said:


> Thanks for posting the raw.
> 
> Two things:
> 
> *a)* I still spot a potential subject change (bolded above)sounds like you're saying they used the word opponent twice, which isn't really an indication that they were referring to the same person. It can still be interpreted as being two different opponents if that's the case.​



The his doesn't exist in the raw Japanese, I was just quoting Shounensuki's translation for the latter half, not how I would translate it, not that Shounensuki isn't a good translator but she has said herself that the "his" doesn't exist in the raw and that was simply added there for flow.

So really there is only one topic in each bit of dialog and that is the "opponent", which is clarified as Jiriaya in the latter half of the dialog.

So basically it should be read as something similar to this

"that opponent is tough" "it was good we found [something] at the ramen shop" "but going up against that opponent [Jiraiya of the Legendary Sannin]..."

Obviously not what the text directly says, but just an example of showing what I mean by there being only one real topic, while there is no real topic of what they found at the Ramenshop. 



> So, I'm convinced that nothing conclusive will come out of linguistics, because the statement is ambiguous (and the VIZ supports this, as they seemed to have left it that way when they could have easily made it more clear).


They couldn't have made it more clear because it would read as broken english. For example if you remove the added stuff in the Viz it doesn't flow well:

Kisame: "It was great finally finding him at the Ramen Shop, But... his babysitter is one of the three great shinobi of Konoha legend"

Kisame: "With him as our enemy, even the titles Konoha's Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist pale in comparison."

----

So they added Him/His, because they knew the text was implying they found Naruto, but in doing so it's creating the false "ambiguity". Because it reads like the him that their enemy/opponent could be the same "him" they found at the Ramenshop, but in reality there is no "him" in the text, and the only person they actually refer to as an enemy/opponent is Jiriaya.​


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## Empathy (Apr 15, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Kisame, "why, was retreat necessary..." "....if it's you...."
> 
> Kisame says, "アナタなら", I.E. "If it's you". This is the same thing he says in the previous scene when discussing Itachi vs Jiraiya.
> 
> ...



I'm not trying to dispute the translation.


> And Itachi never disagree with this sentiment. Instead in response he agrees with Kisame saying "Yeah" [ああ]. He goes on to of course say that he could be killed though and a good scenario would be mutual death. But he never once disagrees with Kisame's sentiment that he can indeed "do something against" the "opponent" ["相手"]
> 
> So anyway, when Kisame says "アナタなら" "If it's you" after they retreat, he is doing nothing more than repeating a sentiment Itachi already agreed with, that Itachi could have put up a fight against Jiraiya so why did they retreat.



Why would Itachi ever disagree with it? He can't outright say that they can't hope to defeat Jiraiya, even if they bring in additional Akatsuki members, because then it makes Itachi seem incapable of completing his mission and incompetent. Kisame's unlikely to leave it at that and resign capturing the Kyuubi to an impossible dream and give-up entirely all because of Jiraiya. If Itachi's hypes Jiraiya up that much, then they're even more likely to have to come back with more Akatsuki members and aggressively attack Konoha to get Naruto. But he also can't say that he definitely can defeat Jiraiya, because then he has to go back and actually defeat Jiraiya and capture Naruto. Both are extremely bad results when he's trying to protect Konoha by being an Akatsuki member. 

By saying that a fight between he and Jiraiya would be very arduous, and Kisame's presence, even with other Akatsuki members would be negligible, Itachi is both avoiding having to say he's isn't capable of completing the mission (just that completing it would be extremely difficult for him, and he can do it another time when he's at 100%), and that bringing in more Akatsuki members to Konoha would be pointless, so he's preventing that as well. Kisame already acknowledges that Itachi is well above him, and if Itachi says that Jiraiya is too, to such an extent that even other Akatsuki members can't affect the outcome of their fight, he's protecting Konoha by preventing more members coming to Konoha with him, while also still leaving the duty of capturing Naruto up to himself only. 



> Which is why the Itachi-fan perception of that exchange is so stupid, because they present it as Kisame changing his opinion and now believing Itachi was stronger than Jiriaya, but in reality the actual text is literally demonstrating the exact opposite that Kisame's is not changing his opinion whatsoever but actually restating it.
> 
> Additionally while on the subject of how greatly the raw text shuts down Itachi-fan perception, the fact that Itachi agrees with Kisame's sentiment that he could put up a fight against Jiraiya, also makes the idea that he lied to Kisame in that instance retarded, as it offers no real deterrent for going after Naruto or fighting Jiriaya. Who cares if a fight to the bitter end between the three could end in everyone dying, their mission isn't to kill Jiriaya, their mission is to capture Naruto. So Itachi offers absolutely no reason why he can't take on Jiraiya, while Kisame is left having to nab Naruto who is absolute fodder to him. Which is exactly why Kisame questions the necessity of retreat, while invoking his previous sentiment that Itachi could fight competently against Jiraiya.
> 
> ...



There is absolutely no reason for Itachi not to lie to Kisame when he's suppose to be a good guy all along. What's he suppose to do? Go back and kill Jiraiya and capture Naruto, or admit that he isn't competent enough to do his job and get kicked out of Akatsuki?


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## Bookworm (Apr 15, 2016)

It makes sense that Itachi was talking about Naruto, even Oro was afraid of the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki's potential power [1].

Besides what would of logically stopped Itachi from killing Jiraiya with Amaterasu? Itachi could of did that and be done with it. Or could of used Tsukuyomi and oneshot. That's one of the reasons why the idea of Jiraiya being stronger than Itachi + Kisame + Nagato + and the rest of Akatsuki is just silly.


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## Saru (Apr 15, 2016)

Empathy said:


> What would Itachi's first lie to Kisame have been exactly? I imagine Itachi probably had to lie quite often by being a member of Akatsuki to spy on them without actually contributing to them taking over the world, but also not being seen as a liability. So lying to Kisame more than once isn't something I'd say disproves anything. Didn't he basically do the same thing with Gai, saying that they wouldn't want to face him out in the open like this in the middle of Konoha?




The first lie would have been that he and Kisame might have been unable to take on their opponent together, and even if you try to twist things by making Itachi tell half-truths (i.e. stating that they would have killed each other because Itachi would have to hold back), it doesn't fit with the implication that _even with backup_, the outcome (i.e. an outcome with the potential for grave injuries on both sides) would not have changed. Jiraiya was never made out to be that strong. _No one_ in the manga was except for Kurama. 

The second lie would have been his response to Kisame when running away from Jiraiya that his power he needed to rest his body. Itachi was visibly tired, but we can assume from his performance in Part II and perhaps Kisame's reaction that this was a lie. If we don't make this assumption, then it means that Itachi really *did* need to rest his body (i.e. he was telling the truth). If we do make this assumption, then it means that Itachi was lying no matter who he was talking about earlier. 

Either way, this:



> Itachi was just hyping Jiraiya by saying he really was that strong *so that he could leave without having fight him in front of Kisame and trying not to kill him*




Makes an extra assumption that is not made if Itachi and Kisame refer to Naruto / Kurama. You're making one assumption to string it to another. On the other hand, If Itachi and Kisame were talking about Kurama, then Itachi really _wasn't_ lying when he was talking about how dangerous Kurama could have been (and I doubt that Kishimoto had the Mangekyou's ability to subjugate Bijuu developed at that point), so no assumption about Itachi telling the truth is ever made (or necessary). 

Also, the problem isn't merely in the fact that Itachi would be lying if he was talking about Jiraiya, it's the fact that you have to make an _assumption_ that he was lying in order to do so, with absolutely no evidence to back that assumption other than a revelation many chapters later. That revelation shouldn't be used to retroactively twist everything that happened in the manga in a way that makes Itachi out to be some omnipotent savior who did everything in his power to thwart Akatsuki's plans. Just because Itachi was a spy doesn't mean that every single thing that he did was in Konoha's best interest, or that every single thing that he did and said was a lie. The fact that Itachi was helping seal the Bijuu is proof of that reality. Itachi may not have wanted to go along with Akatsuki's plans, but he didn't really have much of a choice in the matter. Simply put, "Itachi was a traitor" is not a thorough enough argument IMO. I can see why people would be annoyed when people try to bring that up in debates about Itachi's power and actions, because it can essentially be used to cherrypick the manga and make arbitrary assumptions about when Itachi was and wasn't lying (or holding back). That's unreasonable.

As for their run-in with Gai: not necessarily. it should have been obvious to Kisame at that point that they would have to go all out, and although Kisame was said be capable of destroying villages in the Databook, it can be easy to see why that would be a bad idea not only for Itachi and Kisame (as the scale of Kisame's ninjutsu is such that defeating Kakashi, Kurenai, Asuma, and Gai would not be possible without causing a tremendous commotion) but for the organization of Akatsuki as a whole. 




> You mean to say that Kishi didn't have the idea that Itachi was a good guy all along from chapter one? That's blasphemous, sir. Regardless, whether it was planned and sat on for 400 hundred chapters or not, the reveal retroactively affects the motivation behind all of Itachi's actions, and his visit to Konoha was no exception (it was to ostensibly to remind Danzo he was still alive, even if you think Danzo hadn't yet been imagined in part I).




It actually _*doesn't*_ necessarily affect the motivation behind _all_ of Itachi's actions, because Itachi was not the leader of Akatsuki. He was _assigned_ to the Nine-Tails Jinchuuriki. It was his _job_ to go after Naruto. This is what I meant in the paragraphs above about twisting Itachi into some omnipotent character who was in complete control of every action that he took. Itachi was used by Akatsuki. He may have been calling the shots when he was around Kisame, but he was still forced to do things that he didn't want to do; he was still forced to say things that he didn't want to say. Everything that Itachi stated cannot be arbitrarily assumed to be a lie because it looks bad. That's just the reality of the situation that Itachi was in.

Not that it really has any bearing on anything, but I do think that Itachi was intended to be a double agent all along. There's panels in the beginning of Part I that show Sasuke mumbling about crying on the night of the Uchiha Massacre (which could have been his own crying, but I don't really think so), and I also doubt that Kishimoto would have made the decision to make Itachi a "good guy" so long after he was first introduced.



> Coming from Itachi, who Kisame acknowledged as his superior and pretty much obeyed his every decision, I think Kisame would believe just about anything if Itachi was the one telling it to him. Clearly Kisame didn't think retreat was actually necessary for Itachi, but Itachi vouched for Jiraiya's strength, saying that a fight between them would leave both close to death, *and the addition of more Akatsuki members wouldn't change that outcome*; basically, Itachi was trying to say that it was out of their control (even if it wasn't), and calling another pair for back-up so they could kill Jiraiya and capture the Kyuubi would be futile. That way, Itachi didn't have to come back to Konoha and actually capture the Kyuubi.




Actually, Itachi didn't "vouch for Jiraiya's strength" when they were retreating. He just said that he needed to take a breather. In regards to the bolded statement: again, why would Kisame believe something like that anyway when there's an actual Sannin who ran from Akatsuki? Why would Jiraiya receive such a high level of hype, and then not have it remarked on or supported by anyone else later? Even if we know that Itachi was a double agent now, it wasn't apparent to the readers then, so that moment would have looked *really* out of place if Itachi was talking about Jiraiya. There would have been more information (in the form of statements, feats, etc.) that matched what Itachi stated so that it didn't seem suspicious to the readers (or to Kisame). Furthermore, Orochimaru fought Jiraiya and Tsunade at the same time in the Sannin Deadlock, and he was the one who hyped Itachi to be stronger than himself in the first place, so Jiraiya certainly doesn't have the feats to match Itachi's implication. He doesn't have the hype either, unless you (mis)interpret Itachi and Kisame's conversation to have been referring to Jiraiya.

There are *so many* red flags (e.g. the statement being at odds with Jiraiya's feats and portrayal, the statement logically being at odds with the strength of Akatsuki as a whole, the statement being at odds with Itachi's shown level of strength and mountain of hype, etc.) that make Itachi's statements and actions outliers if Itachi was talking about Jiraiya that I cannot understand why people cling to the belief that Itachi was indeed talking about Jiraiya rather than consider a possibility that makes far more sense _overall_ (in context).



> Itachi off-panel having to hype Jiraiya wouldn't surprise me if the assumption had to be made. Naruto traveled alone with Jiraiya for years, so if Itachi's excuse for not capturing the Kyuubi is just that the Kyuubi is too strong for him and he's not up to the challenge, then Itachi is not doing his job and should no longer be a member of Akatsuki; but if his excuse is that one of the legendary Sannin is his constant bodyguard, and that Jiraiya is actually much stronger than you guys (Akatsuki) can imagine, in addition to whatever complications capturing the Kyuubi's jinchuuriki entails, then Itachi putting off capturing Naruto seems a lot more plausible (in addition to them not needing the last bijuu right away in the first place). Itachi being a good guy all along and hyping Jiraiya as the reason he didn't capture Naruto actually makes even _more_ sense retroactively, even if you don't Kishi had that twist in mind all along. If he's only using Kurama as an excuse, then he's just unwilling to do his job.




Once again, Itachi didn't hype Jiraiya when he and Kisame were escaping Jiraiya's Toad Mouth Bind. Jiraiya's name wasn't mentioned by *Itachi*. Kisame, in fact, thought that Itachi could take Jiraiya on, and itachi didn't deny that assertion. Instead, he said that his body needed rest, which would make sense given how much he had been using the Mangekyou that day in addition to various other jutsu. Itachi having to rest is a completely valid excuse. You seem to be under the impression that Itachi would be "fired" from Akatsuki for failure to capture a Bijuu. That was clearly _*never*_ a possibility given that Itachi had so much intel on Akatsuki and that the true _leader_ of Akatsuki himself waited until Itachi was dead to strike Konoha.




> I think FlamingRain brought up a good point about Kakashi later assuming Jiraiya's presence over the time-skip as Akatsuki's deterrent and the fact that the people who knew Naruto was the Kyuubi's jinchuuriki still treated him as a weakling.




I disagree. Not everyone knew that Naruto was a Jinchuuriki; no one in Naruto's generation was fully aware of who Naruto was, and most of those people are who Naruto associated with in Part I. The reason that the others didn't think that Naruto was a threat because he didn't show any talent. Itachi and Kisame  treated Naruto like a brat too when they saw him; there's a dissonance between Naruto Uzumaki and the Demon Fox inside of him, and that was a recurring theme in the manga too. Itachi and Kisame were only worried about that one-in-a-million possibility of Naruto's seal weakening and Kurama going on a rampage through his host.

As for Jiraiya: he's still a top-tier character regardless of where he stands relative to Itachi. Relative to the rest of Akatsuki (ignoring Nagato, Obito, and Itachi--regardless of how you think they stack up to Jiraiya), Jiraiya would be a huge threat, no? Itachi is significantly stronger than the majority of Akatsuki, no? If so, it doesn't make sense to lump him in with people who are significantly weaker than him. Akatsuki considering Jiraiya a threat wouldn't prove anything, as we know that not only does Akatsuki work in pairs, but the combined strength of Akatsuki is more than enough to flatten Jiraiya (and most characters), making the suggestion that Jiraiya could pose a threat to Akatsuki as a whole, again, ludicrous.



Turrin said:


> The his doesn't exist in the raw Japanese, I was just quoting Shounensuki's translation for the latter half, not how I would translate it, not that Shounensuki isn't a good translator but she has said herself that the "his" doesn't exist in the raw and that was simply added there for flow.
> 
> So really there is only one topic in each bit of dialog and that is the "opponent", which is clarified as Jiriaya in the latter half of the dialog.
> 
> ...




That looks incredibly ambiguous to me still, and it looks like you just made the text look similar because they use the same term, i.e. "opponent." Like I said, they still could have been referring to two different opponents; just because the word was used twice doesn't mean that it was meant to refer to the same subject both times it was used.​


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## FlamingRain (Apr 15, 2016)

Trolling said:


> It makes sense that Itachi was talking about Naruto, even Oro was afraid of the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki's potential power [1].



That is a mistranslation. Having actually seen the raw of that page I'd say it's one of the more egregious ones, too.

.


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## Bookworm (Apr 15, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> That is a mistranslation. Having actually seen the raw of that page I'd say it's one of the more egregious ones, too.
> 
> .



That doesn't seem much different then the other translation. Besides, what I said in my previous post is still true:

"Besides what would of logically stopped Itachi from killing Jiraiya with Amaterasu? Itachi could of did that and be done with it. Or could of used Tsukuyomi and oneshot. That's one of the reasons why the idea of Jiraiya being stronger than Itachi + Kisame + Nagato + and the rest of Akatsuki is just silly."


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## Kaiser (Apr 15, 2016)

Itachi was obviously talking about Jiraya. You don't need translation for that. Common sense tell you that when you see all what Itachi actually did to draw Jiraya away. He wanted to draw away by using a genjutsu on a random girl, not Naruto 

With that said i think it depends on Itachi's state. SM Jiraya is stronger than him but base Jiraya will lose imo


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## Tsubaki1684 (Apr 15, 2016)

Jiraiya is strong just not on Minato and Itachi's level.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2016)

Empathy said:


> .
> Why would Itachi ever disagree with it? He can't outright say that they can't hope to defeat Jiraiya, even if they bring in additional Akatsuki members, because then it makes Itachi seem incapable of completing his mission and incompetent. Kisame's unlikely to leave it at that and resign capturing the Kyuubi to an impossible dream and give-up entirely all because of Jiraiya. If Itachi's hypes Jiraiya up that much, then they're even more likely to have to come back with more Akatsuki members and aggressively attack Konoha to get Naruto. But he also can't say that he definitely can defeat Jiraiya, because then he has to go back and actually defeat Jiraiya and capture Naruto. Both are extremely bad results when he's trying to protect Konoha by being an Akatsuki member.


The problem is why lie at all than? Saying he can take Jiraiya doesn't accomplish anything as far as a lie is concerned. Because it doesn't provide any kind of reasoning for why Itachi can't fight Jiraiya, which is again exactly why Kisame questions the necessity of retreat when they run from Jiraiya. So i'm suppose to believe a very intelligent character like Itachi made up a lie which accomplished nothing? 

If Itachi didn't want to have to fight Jiraiya, he could have told Kisame Jiriaya was definitively stronger than him, but they can try to distract Jiraiya long enough to grab the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki. Or he could have said he was stronger than Jiraiya, and than given other excuses for not fighting him; for example saying that he'd beat Jiraiya but their battle would draw unnecessary attention or that he was weakened from using Mangekyo previously so taking Jiriaya on that day would have been more dangerous than it had to be, and their wasn't a rush to capture Kurama. 



> By saying that a fight between he and Jiraiya would be very arduous, and Kisame's presence, even with other Akatsuki members would be negligible, Itachi is both avoiding having to say he's isn't capable of completing the mission (just that completing it would be extremely difficult for him, and he can do it another time when he's at 100%), and that bringing in more Akatsuki members to Konoha would be pointless, so he's preventing that as well. Kisame already acknowledges that Itachi is well above him, and if Itachi says that Jiraiya is too, to such an extent that even other Akatsuki members can't affect the outcome of their fight, he's protecting Konoha by preventing more members coming to Konoha with him, while also still leaving the duty of capturing Naruto up to himself only.


Itachi never says anything about more Akatsuki members. When he talks about the number of "people" increasing, he is talking figuratively and not something that is meant to be taken seriously. Rather all Itachi is really saying is that the level Jiraiya and by proxy himself (since he can take Jiriaya on), is high enough where merely throwing more people not on that level at the situation isn't going to change much. Never once did Itachi imply that Jiraiya can solo Akatuski or even solo multiple Akatsuki members besides himself and P1-Kisame. This forum has made that up to try and make the statement sound less feasible than it really is.



> There is absolutely no reason for Itachi not to lie to Kisame when he's suppose to be a good guy all along. What's he suppose to do? Go back and kill Jiraiya and capture Naruto,


No he's suppose to do exactly what he did. Which is tell Kisame that there is no need to rush into capturing Naruto and that he needs to rest because he used Mangekyo multiple times. Which is the actual reason given for retreat, not anything to do w/ Itachi being incapable of taking on Jiraiya, because again he already stated he could.



> or admit that he isn't competent enough to do his job and get kicked out of Akatsuki?


I don't see any reason why it would be a problem for Itachi to say, I can capture Naruto, but since Jiraiya is stronger than me we should wait until Naruto is separated from Jiraiya. That demonstrates that he is competent enough to do his job, he simply couldn't do it now. And I see nothing in the manga suggesting that him telling Kisame that would prompt Kisame to tell the Akatsuki Leader that Itachi is incompetent, and than Nagato kicks Itachi out of Akatsuki for that reason. Really nothing at all.



Saru said:


> That looks incredibly ambiguous to me still, and it looks like you just made the text look similar because they use the same term, i.e. "opponent." Like I said, they still could have been referring to two different opponents; just because the word was used twice doesn't mean that it was meant to refer to the same subject both times it was used.[/INDENT]


Of course using the same word twice doesn't mean the same subject, but as I said before in this case there is no indication in the text whatsoever, that the subject of opponent switches between multiple individuals. And as I said you bases for believing the subject switches, the "him" and "his" you highlighted doesn't exist in the raw text.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 15, 2016)

Tsubaki1684 said:


> Jiraiya is strong just not on Minato and Itachi's level.



Featwise, edo itachi is on sm Jiraiya's level. Minato is just a bit higher.
Hope you are not another one...


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## Icegaze (Apr 15, 2016)

Duhul
What u mean feat wise ?

Itachi feat is blitzing nagato with totsuka and trolling orochimaru strongest tech

What are Jiriaya feats that are comparable


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## Itachі (Apr 15, 2016)

Itachi is significantly above Jiraiya's level when he's in base but Itachi & Jiraiya are very close when Jiraiya is in Sage Mode, imo. I can see Itachi tangling or at least giving a good fight to characters like MS Obito, Minato, Tobirama, Danzo, etc. Can't say the same for Jiraiya.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Itachi is significantly above Jiraiya's level when he's in base but Itachi & Jiraiya are very close when Jiraiya is in Sage Mode, imo. I can see Itachi tangling or at least giving a good fight to characters like MS Obito, Minato, Tobirama, Danzo, etc. Can't say the same for Jiraiya.


Jiriaya can canonically beat Pain under the right conditions, so unless you believe these characters are much stronger than Pain or a poor match up (which has no basis on "Power-level"), I think we can say w/ absolute certainty that Jiraiya can indeed give these characters a good fight at least under the right conditions. And let's be honest here if conditions aren't good, Itachi isn't giving them a great fight ether. We saw what Itachi accomplished against MS-Obito w/ tons of prep time and catching totally off guard w/ his trap; whole lot of nothing. We saw a Fodder Crow armed w/ Koto one shot Itachi, so chances are a powerful Ninja like Danzo wielding the Dojutsu can easily do the same. Minato and Tobirama both defeated powerful MS users, albeit in Minato's case there was some mitigating circumstances, but MS-Obito is > Itachi anyway and Minato still had enough left in the tank to take on Kurama afterwards so yeah.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 15, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Jiriaya can canonically *beat Pain under the right conditions*, so unless you believe these characters are much stronger than Pain or a poor match up (which has not basis on "Power-level"), I think we can say w/ absolute certainty that Jiraiya can indeed give these characters a good fight at least under the right conditions.





Under EXTREMELY favorable condition.


Pain never said he would lose to Jiraiya....he just said he wouldn't have won when he was limited to using small scale techniques inside his own village. He even said "I can give no higher praise".


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## Itachі (Apr 15, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Jiriaya can canonically beat Pain under the right conditions, so unless you believe these characters are much stronger than Pain or a poor match up (which has no basis on "Power-level"), I think we can say w/ absolute certainty that Jiraiya can indeed give these characters a good fight at least under the right conditions. And let's be honest here if conditions aren't good, Itachi isn't giving them a great fight ether. We saw what Itachi accomplished against MS-Obito w/ tons of prep time and catching totally off guard w/ his trap; whole lot of nothing. We saw a Fodder Crow armed w/ Koto one shot Itachi, so chances are a powerful Ninja like Danzo wielding the Dojutsu can easily do the same. Minato and Tobirama both defeated powerful MS users, albeit in Minato's case there was some mitigating circumstances, but MS-Obito is > Itachi anyway and Minato still had enough left in the tank to take on Kurama afterwards so yeah.



Under the right conditions, yes. In the situation that Jiraiya was, he could defeat Pain with full knowledge. But in my opinion, a character like Itachi could also do the same, except he'd be exhausted by the end of it. Minato could defeat Pain with full knowledge in nearly all situations too, Sage Mode Naruto with nigh-full knowledge and the advantage of Pain only trying to capture him got stomped and Pain wasn't even at full power. Sage Mode Naruto is also stronger than Jiraiya. The conditions would have to be very skewed for someone like Jiraiya or Itachi to win, in my opinion they can't defeat Pain in normal circumstances.

Itachi used one Jutsu and it failed on Obito due to Izanagi (or Kamui but I'd prefer not to get into that debate), it's not like he had an actual fight with him. Just like if Obito died to his trap I wouldn't say that Itachi was stronger than Obito or he could give him a good fight based on that alone. I think Itachi could give Obito a good fight but ultimately Obito would win. True, Danzo with Koto will one-shot pretty much anyone but I mean Danzo with Koto restricted. I think that Minato & Tobirama are stronger than Itachi on a general level but I still think a normal fight between them would be 50/50. And let's be real here about Minato beating Obito, the only reason Minato beat Obito as easily as he did is because Obito was stupid enough to not consider the possibility of Minato warping to his kunai, a technique that he's had knowledge on for God knows how long. Not saying that Minato can't defeat Adult MS Obito, I just think that Obito was stupid in that fight.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Under EXTREMELY favorable condition.
> 
> 
> Pain never said he would lose to Jiraiya....he just said he wouldn't have won when he was limited to using small scale techniques inside his own village. He even said "I can give no higher praise".


1) The condition was Jiriaya having more knowledge on Pain and the nature of rinnegan. Considering Pain already had a-lot of knowledge on Jiraiya, being his former student. That doesn't seem like a hugely favorable condition, but more balancing the scales than anything else.

2) Never once did the manga indicate Pain was unwilling to use large scale Jutsu in Amegakuru. Literally the first thing Pain did was initiate a Godzilla battle between summons, that had them rampaging through the city streets.

3)If Pain wouldn't have won, that obviously implies Jiraiya would have or at the very least a draw. Ether way it satisfies my point that conditionally Jiraiya can put up a good fight against someone of Pain's "level" and therefore should be able to put up a good fight against the characters mentioned in the post I was respond to, which range from around Pain's "level" to inferior to Pain.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Under the right conditions, yes. In the situation that Jiraiya was, he could defeat Pain with full knowledge. But in my opinion, a character like Itachi could also do the same, except he'd be exhausted by the end of it. Minato could defeat Pain with full knowledge in nearly all situations too


I never said Itachi & Minato couldn't do so. Your the one who said you couldn't see Jiraiya doing the same:

_"I can see Itachi tangling or at least giving a good fight to characters like MS Obito, Minato, Tobirama, Danzo, etc. Can't say the same for Jiraiya."_

However if you want to directly compare the three. Out of the three of them, Itachi is coming out of this a-lot worse than the other 2,  he will need to utilize Mangekyo a-lot to win, and as such his career as Ninja is going to be permanently impacted by the damage done to his eyesight; while the other two will come out of it w/o said handicap. Which again speaks towards there relative effectiveness as Shinobi.



> , Sage Mode Naruto with nigh-full knowledge and the advantage of Pain only trying to capture him got stomped and Pain wasn't even at full power. Sage Mode Naruto is also stronger than Jiraiya.


SM-Naruto may or may not be stronger than Jiraiya, but SM-Naruto never lost to Pain, Naruto lost to Pain specifically because he could not maintain SM. Jiraiya can maintain SM throughout the battle due to fusion. And that is why Jiraiya > Pain-Arc Naruto. The very fact that Naruto lost to Pain despite having more advantages than it was stated Jiraiya needed to win should be more than a testament to that.



> The conditions would have to be very skewed for someone like Jiraiya or Itachi to win, in my opinion they can't defeat Pain in normal circumstances.


The condition was Jiriaya having more knowledge on Pain and the nature of rinnegan. Considering Pain already had a-lot of knowledge on Jiraiya, being his former student. That doesn't seem like a hugely favorable condition, but more balancing the scales than anything else.

I don't think the conditions need to be that skewed for Shinobi like Itachi and Jiraiya to have a chance against Pain. However beating Pain is not equivalent to beating Nagato. They would still have to face Nagato afterwards, which is where I think both would fail even w/ knowledge.



> Itachi used one Jutsu and it failed on Obito due to Izanagi (or Kamui but I'd prefer not to get into that debate), it's not like he had an actual fight with him. Just like if Obito died to his trap I wouldn't say that Itachi was stronger than Obito or he could give him a good fight based on that alone.


The two things aren't the same. We wouldn't consider Obito inferior to Itachi if Itachi's trap succeeded, because Itachi had the advantage of prior preparation, to formulate a strategic trap and set it up in advance to hit Obito when his guard was down. However Itachi's trap failing to kill Obito does speak towards his chances of defeating Obito in straight up combat being quite low, as it demonstrated that Itachi fundamentally did not understand Obito's powers, and thus going into a fight with him he'd be in the same bad spot Jiriaya was in against Pain. 

Itachi could put up a good fight against Obito and perhaps win, if he had more knowledge of Obito's capabilities. We know this because Obito says as much, but that is no different than what Jiraiya requires to perform well against Pain, which is my point.



> True, Danzo with Koto will one-shot pretty much anyone but I mean Danzo with Koto restricted.


Sans the potential for an Izanagi ambush, which both Itachi and Jiraiya run the risk of, i'm fairly certain that Jiraiya can put up a good fight against Danzo w/o Koto as well.



> I think that Minato & Tobirama are stronger than Itachi on a general level but I still think a normal fight between them would be 50/50


I do not think it would be 50/50. But if it was I see no reasoning for why it's 50/50 for Itachi, but lower for Jiraiya, sans bad match up (Ultra speedsters at short, not giving Jiraiya time for SM).



> And let's be real here about Minato beating Obito, the only reason Minato beat Obito as easily as he did is because Obito was stupid enough to not consider the possibility of Minato warping to his kunai, a technique that he's had knowledge on for God knows how long. Not saying that Minato can't defeat Adult MS Obito, I just think that Obito was stupid in that fight.


I agree the scenario enabled Minato to beat Obito much quicker than he otherwise would have. But the scenario also meant Minato having to than deal w/ the Fox afterwards and a bit prior to his duel w/ Obito, so it's not totally black and white, that the scenario just advantaged Obito and disadvantage Minato. But the bottom line is Minato showed the capability to counter a more powerful Mangekyo user than Itachi, whether he would have won or not, under different circumstance can be debated, but Minato's feats of counter Kamui time and time again, even under duress, can not be. And I do think that display from Minato that night is above anything Itachi is capable off.


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## Itachі (Apr 15, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I never said Itachi & Minato couldn't do so. Your the one who said you couldn't see Jiraiya doing the same:
> 
> _"I can see Itachi tangling or at least giving a good fight to characters like MS Obito, Minato, Tobirama, Danzo, etc. Can't say the same for Jiraiya."_
> 
> However if you want to directly compare the three. Out of the three of them, Itachi is coming out of this a-lot worse than the other 2,  he will need to utilize Mangekyo a-lot to win, and as such his career as Ninja is going to be permanently impacted by the damage done to his eyesight; while the other two will come out of it w/o said handicap. Which again speaks towards there relative effectiveness as Shinobi.



No disagreements there.



> SM-Naruto may or may not be stronger than Jiraiya, but SM-Naruto never lost to Pain, Naruto lost to Pain specifically because he could not maintain SM. Jiraiya can maintain SM throughout the battle due to fusion. And that is why Jiraiya > Pain-Arc Naruto. The very fact that Naruto lost to Pain despite having more advantages than it was stated Jiraiya needed to win should be more than a testament to that.



But Naruto's much stronger than Jiraiya while he's in that form, imo. I agree that Jiraiya > Pain Arc Naruto but I think that SM Pain Arc Naruto > SM Jiraiya. 



> The condition was Jiriaya having more knowledge on Pain and the nature of rinnegan. Considering Pain already had a-lot of knowledge on Jiraiya, being his former student. That doesn't seem like a hugely favorable condition, but more balancing the scales than anything else.
> 
> I don't think the conditions need to be that skewed for Shinobi like Itachi and Jiraiya to have a chance against Pain. However beating Pain is not equivalent to beating Nagato. They would still have to face Nagato afterwards, which is where I think both would fail even w/ knowledge.



Jiraiya lacked knowledge on Pain, but Pain also underestimated Jiraiya by far. Although Pain wasn't using anywhere near his full strength, Jiraya was frankly embarrassing him when he took out three of his paths. I don't think that Pain had full knowledge on Jiraiya simply because Jiraiya himself wasn't even aware of a very powerful technique like Gamarinsho and Pain didn't face the strongest paths until the end. Not to mention that Pain put down effectively 3 Tomoe Kakashi when he realised that he was a threat, I don't understand why he wouldn't put down Jiraiya when SM Jiraiya is much more powerful than Kakashi if Pain had full knowledge.



> The two things aren't the same. We wouldn't consider Obito inferior to Itachi if Itachi's trap succeeded, because Itachi had the advantage of prior preparation, to formulate a strategic trap and set it up in advance to hit Obito when his guard was down. However Itachi's trap failing to kill Obito does speak towards his chances of defeating Obito in straight up combat being quite low, as it demonstrated that Itachi fundamentally did not understand Obito's powers, and thus going into a fight with him he'd be in the same bad spot Jiriaya was in against Pain.



I agree with your first point, but not your second one. For example, Madara could use a generic trap on Obito and have it fail, doesn't mean that he couldn't defeat Obito. Itachi just lacked knowledge on Izanagi.



> Itachi could put up a good fight against Obito and perhaps win, if he had more knowledge of Obito's capabilities. We know this because Obito says as much, but that is no different than what Jiraiya requires to perform well against Pain, which is my point.



I disagree, Obito would have died if Itachi had full knowledge on his abilities and set up a trap in advance but it doesn't mean that Obito couldn't defeat him in a straight up fight. Obito is above Itachi and Pain is above Jiraiya, both need decent advantages in order to compete imo.



> Sans the potential for an Izanagi ambush, which both Itachi and Jiraiya run the risk of, i'm fairly certain that Jiraiya can put up a good fight against Danzo w/o Koto as well.
> 
> I do not think it would be 50/50. But if it was I see no reasoning for why it's 50/50 for Itachi, but lower for Jiraiya, sans bad match up (Ultra speedsters at short, not giving Jiraiya time for SM).



By Izanagi ambush do you mean if they faced Danzo without knowledge on Izanagi? I think Jiraiya will be overwhelmed by Danzo's use of Izanagi tbh, while Itachi's more prepared due to his reflexes and Susano'o, pretty much. Itachi has Izanami too, though I think Danzo is above him outside of those two techniques.



> I agree the scenario enabled Minato to beat Obito much quicker than he otherwise would have. But the scenario also meant Minato having to than deal w/ the Fox afterwards and a bit prior to his duel w/ Obito, so it's not totally black and white, that the scenario just advantaged Obito and disadvantage Minato. But the bottom line is Minato showed the capability to counter a more powerful Mangekyo user than Itachi, whether he would have won or not, under different circumstance can be debated, but Minato's feats of counter Kamui time and time again, even under duress, can not be. And I do think that display from Minato that night is above anything Itachi is capable off.



I agree, but I'm talking about the 1v1 combat which took place between Obito and Minato. When Obito and Minato had a proper fight, Minato raped him with barely any effort. I do agree that Minato is above Itachi in general.


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## OutlawJohn (Apr 15, 2016)

My god this argument is ceaseless.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Duhul
> What u mean feat wise ?
> 
> Itachi feat is blitzing nagato with totsuka and trolling orochimaru strongest tech
> ...



trolling immobile Orochimaru means nothing. Sucker punching an immobile Nagato ( as stated ), does not mean much at all.
What about Itachi not dodging a shuriken and a lame katon ?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 15, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Under the right conditions, yes. In the situation that Jiraiya was, he could defeat Pain with full knowledge. But in my opinion, a character like *Itachi could also do the same*, except he'd be exhausted by the end of it. Minato could defeat Pain with full knowledge in nearly all situations too, Sage Mode Naruto with nigh-full knowledge and the advantage of Pain only trying to capture him got stomped and Pain wasn't even at full power. *Sage Mode Naruto is also stronger than Jiraiya*. The conditions would have to be very skewed for someone like Jiraiya or Itachi to win, in my opinion they can't defeat Pain in normal circumstances.
> 
> Itachi used one Jutsu and it failed on Obito due to Izanagi (or Kamui but I'd prefer not to get into that debate), it's not like he had an actual fight with him. Just like if Obito died to his trap I wouldn't say that Itachi was stronger than Obito or he could give him a good fight based on that alone. I think Itachi could give Obito a good fight but ultimately Obito would win. True, Danzo with Koto will one-shot pretty much anyone but I mean Danzo with Koto restricted. I think that Minato & Tobirama are stronger than Itachi on a general level but I still think a normal fight between them would be 50/50. And let's be real here about Minato beating Obito, the only reason Minato beat Obito as easily as he did is because Obito was stupid enough to not consider the possibility of Minato warping to his kunai, a technique that he's had knowledge on for God knows how long. Not saying that Minato can't defeat Adult MS Obito, I just think that Obito was stupid in that fight.



the only two wrong points in your entire post. 
SM Naruto ( pain arc at least ) < SM Jiraiya by quite a margin as Jiraiya not only that has at least comparable stats, but also the sages on his shoulders. + tons of jutsus, an unavoidable game ender, better guerilla tactics and unlimited time in said mode.

The Itachi part is not wrong if you are talking about edo Itachi. Alive Itachi was loosing sight after 1 ms jutsu. 1 ms Jutsu means one dead path at most.


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## Icegaze (Apr 15, 2016)

Duhul10 said:


> trolling immobile Orochimaru means nothing. Sucker punching an immobile Nagato ( as stated ), does not mean much at all.
> What about Itachi not dodging a shuriken and a lame katon ?



So what has Jiriaya done that means something 

Also it was oro strongest technique that was easily defeated . Jiriaya can't do the same in that time frame 

Immobile or not what would Jiriaya have done in that situation

Educate us


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## Duhul10 (Apr 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So what has Jiriaya done that means something
> 
> Also it was oro strongest technique that was easily defeated . Jiriaya can't do the same in that time frame
> 
> ...



Jiraiya would have YN'd that multiple head featless serpent. In my opinion, the jutsu itself was a disappointment to me. Like seriously? All we got from Oro until his death was snakes, an incomplete ET, lots of neck movements and then you get Oro's best.. another snake 
Also, Orochimaru only had a kunai in one hand. The other arm was not out and he could not dodge any attack as his legs were inside as well. How hard to hit would a target like that be ?
Do you need someone to educate you ? A little too late, bro ..
What has Jiraiya done?
 Killed 1 path of pain with one arm, when the other 5 were fighting him at the same time. 
Made short work of Konan, who put  Obito to his limits.
Scared the s...t out of Kisame with one jutsu.
kept up with Oro when he could barely move and was in base. Oro was gimped as well, but could use techs which required no handseals and could at least move properly.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 15, 2016)

Are you fucking serious? This is like asking what cornflakes is like, apple jacks or fruit loops. It doesn't matter, cornflakes are shit. Itachi is cornflakes here and he is shit


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## IzayaOrihara (Apr 15, 2016)

Simple math really.

Minato > Jiraiya > Itachi.
= thus logically Itachi is closer to Jiraiya since Minato is stronger than the latter, whom the former is weaker than.
Thats my opinion.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 15, 2016)

Just the fact that 90% of this thread is arguing over Jiraiya vs Itachi is a testament that they are closer in level. Minato is in a different league.


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## Tsubaki1684 (Apr 15, 2016)

Duhul10 said:


> Featwise, edo itachi is on sm Jiraiya's level. Minato is just a bit higher.
> Hope you are not another one...



I respectfully disagree. As an edo tensei Itachi can freely abuse his Mangekyo jutsu to overwhelm Jiraiya's might from far away.  In taijutsu where Jiraiya supposedly excels as a sage his punches were blocked by pain bodies weaker than tendo pain. Whereas Itachi kept up with golden kyuubi Naruto and Killer B.

Itachi defeated Orochimaru as a mortal and Jiraiya was no better than Orochimaru. Ever since earlier in the manga Itachi and Minato were portrayed to have surpassed the legendary sannin's strength at less than half their age.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2016)

Itachі said:


> No disagreements there.
> .


K



> But Naruto's much stronger than Jiraiya while he's in that form, imo. I agree that Jiraiya > Pain Arc Naruto but I think that SM Pain Arc Naruto > SM Jiraiya.


I can understand believing SM-Naruto > SM-Jiraiya, but I don't know where your getting "much" stronger from. To me SM-Naruto simply has greater fire power, due to his mastery of FRS, but than SM-Jiraiya has much greater versatility, knowledge, and exp.



> Jiraiya lacked knowledge on Pain, but Pain also underestimated Jiraiya by far.


Pain didn't underestimate Jiriaya. Even when it came to Frog-Song, Nagato made sure to have the other 3 Path's hang back in case the first 3 Path's failed. And than proceeded to use them to ambush Jiriaya after the song was complete'd.



> . I don't think that Pain had full knowledge on Jiraiya simply because Jiraiya himself wasn't even aware of a very powerful technique like Gamarinsho a.


Of course Pain didn't have full knowledge. No one said he did. I simply said Pain had a-lot of knowledge on Jiraiya going into the match, due to Nagato being his former student, while Jiraiya essentially went into the fight blind. Essentially Nagato held the knowledge advantage in that match.



> s Not to mention that Pain put down effectively 3 Tomoe Kakashi when he realised that he was a threat, I don't understand why he wouldn't put down Jiraiya when SM Jiraiya is much more powerful than Kakashi if Pain had full knowledge


I don't really see any indication that Pain did not try to put down SM-Jiraiya; so i'm not sure what your referring to. Unless you simply mean Nagato not throwing all 6 Paths at Jiraiya right away, in which case I'd say Nagato's actual canon approach is both more thoughtful and strategically sound than that, considering it allowed him to observe Jiraiya's capabilities, ambush him, and end up no worse for the wear due to Naraka's power.



> I agree with your first point, but not your second one. For example, Madara could use a generic trap on Obito and have it fail, doesn't mean that he couldn't defeat Obito.


Yeah I don't really find it realistic that Madara w/ several years of planning couldn't set up a trap to deal w/ Obito.



> Itachi just lacked knowledge on Izanag


That's my point, Itachi lost out there because he didn't understand the nature of Obito's capabilities (Kamui & Izanagi), which is the same reason Jiraiya lost out to Pain. Itachi needs knowledge he didn't have to stand a chance against Obito, the same way Jiraiya needed knowledge he didn't have to stand a chance against Pain.



> By Izanagi ambush do you mean if they faced Danzo without knowledge on Izanagi?


Yes



> I think Jiraiya will be overwhelmed by Danzo's use of Izanagi tbh, while Itachi's more prepared due to his reflexes and Susano'o, pretty much. Itachi has Izanami too, though I think Danzo is above him outside of those two techniques.


SM-Jiraiya's reflexes w/ SM sensing are just as good if not better than Itachi's, and he has Senpo elemental Ninjutsu to counter Danzo's Fuuton Ninjutsu. So I don't really see any reason to believe Jiraiya could not have a chance at lasting 10~11min. Could Danzo win sure, but Danzo could also beat Itachi, as Itachi keeping up an active defense for 10~11min straight w/ his stamina and eyesight issues is a tall order as well.



> I agree, but I'm talking about the 1v1 combat which took place between Obito and Minato. When Obito and Minato had a proper fight, Minato raped him with barely any effort. I do agree that Minato is above Itachi in general.


I don't agree that Minato vs Obito was rape, it was decided by a split instance difference, which to me is indicative of a close contest, far from rape. 

My point is that Minato dealt w/ a more dangerous and powerful utilization of the Mangekyo than Itachi is capable off and than still had enough left over to seal the Demon-Fox.

Basically i'm not sure why I should consider Minato vs Itachi a 50/50 match up, if Minato is the better Ninja. Is Itachi a bad match up for him?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2016)

Tsubaki1684 said:


> I respectfully disagree. As an edo tensei Itachi can freely abuse his Mangekyo jutsu to overwhelm Jiraiya's might from far away.  In taijutsu where Jiraiya supposedly excels as a sage his punches were blocked by pain bodies weaker than tendo pain. Whereas Itachi kept up with golden kyuubi Naruto and Killer B.
> 
> Itachi defeated Orochimaru as a mortal and Jiraiya was no better than Orochimaru. Ever since earlier in the manga Itachi and Minato were portrayed to have surpassed the legendary sannin's strength at less than half their age.



Alive Itachi could not dodge a shuriken.. He is not dodging Jutsus like kebari senbon or COR so he will have to use susanoo all the match long.
Keeping up with base B doesn't make him > Sm Jiraiya
Keeping up with non serious, shunshinless Kcm Naruto just for a couple of seconds does not make him > sm Jiraiya.
There is no reason to believe human path is physically weaker than Tendo.
Also, I see that you do not mention the smashed eyes part.
the second paragraph is wrong (almost entirely).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 16, 2016)

Itachi couldn't dodge the shuriken because of the backlash of Tsukiyomi.


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2016)

Duhul10 said:


> Jiraiya would have YN'd that multiple head featless serpent. In my opinion, the jutsu itself was a disappointment to me. Like seriously? All we got from Oro until his death was snakes, an incomplete ET, lots of neck movements and then you get Oro's best.. another snake
> Also, Orochimaru only had a kunai in one hand. The other arm was not out and he could not dodge any attack as his legs were inside as well. How hard to hit would a target like that be ?
> Do you need someone to educate you ? A little too late, bro ..
> What has Jiraiya done?
> ...



U mean like he tried to do to a snake 8 times smaller and failed ? An exhausted Jiriaya making a swamp 8 times larger ? Try harder also how would that defeat orochimaru . Again totsuka was a perfect counter 

 he had Kusanagi not a Kunai . U trolling ??

So paths <<<< nagato 

Oro fighting normally << Yamata no jutsu . His strongest tech as stated by the author 

As to what Yamata can do a lot however nothing to susanoo . Which is the point


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2016)

What would be fun to do is let's put itachi and Jiriaya with no knowledge in situations minato has been in 

1) Jiriaya / itachi against kyuubi BD . How do they deal with it 

2) jiraiya/ itachi  vs Obito sneak attack and follow up battle . How do they deal with it 

3) Jiriaya / itachi vs Juubi BD how do they deal with it ?

4) Jiriaya / itachi against A V2 blitz . How do they deal with it 

Now let's compare their achievements and see how minato would have done it 

1) minato vs Yamata no jutsu . Hakke seal simply seals him in a near by object or back in Sasuke 

2) Minato with 1 hand vs paths of pain . Marks a path and simply escapes with said path 

His ST jutsu and other works simply puts him above them 

Their achievements are things he could have easily done in their situation , however his achievements aren't things they can replicate at all


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> What would be fun to do is let's put itachi and Jiriaya with no knowledge in situations minato has been in
> 
> 1) Jiriaya / itachi against kyuubi BD . How do they deal with it
> 
> ...



You are right here but Itachi and Jiraiya do not have the luxury of ftg. Minato's style makes him defeat enemies easier, but not necessarily more than the other two can, at least not much more.
Other than what Sm Jiraiya and Itachi can defeat more times than not, I see him beating Ms Obito, Tobirama ( which I see the 2 being 50/50, especially Edo Itachi as he has unlimited Susanoo) and dunno.. B if he plays his cards well ?


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2016)

But that's the thing though a ninja is determined on his jutsu 

Same way Obito is only where he is due to Kamui . Minato due to FTG , both techniques are simply more useful and hax than Jiriaya or itachi Arsenal hence why they should be seen on a different level 

I use the pain example , neither itachi or Jiriaya can go to rain village fight pain and take a path back to konoha for further inquiry 

However Obito and minato can simply achieve this because they are superior 

Same way those superior to minato and Obito can achieve the same thing with less risk 

Jiriaya facing A in that situation minato did means death simply because Jiriaya doesnt have the jutsu to prevent it , while itachi does as does minato and Obito 

I don't think there is any situation honestly where one benefits from having itachi skill set vs having minato's or one benefits from having Jiriaya skill set vs having itachi 

For me it's 

Minato 

Neglible gap 

Itachi 

Gap 

Jiriaya


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## Sapherosth (Apr 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> What would be fun to do is let's put itachi and Jiriaya with no knowledge in situations minato has been in
> 
> 1) Jiriaya / itachi against kyuubi BD . How do they deal with it
> 
> ...









1)Itachi can just use Amateratsu on the Kyuubi first?   Or he can just outright control the Kyuubi with his MS. Not even counting the possibility of Susano+Yata defending against it.

2) Itachi can just use his Susano to stop Obito from sneak warping him or he can just use Amateratsu when he tries to, since Obito will have to solidify himself. Tsukuyomi will most likely be resisted since Obito has MS.

At the end of the day, that was a young and inexperienced Obito who just recently got his MS.

3) Juubi is above Itachi's pay grade. He will probably die unless he Izanagi himself to escape.

4) Itachi can just prevent it from the start?   Base A isn't dodging anything.  Considering Minato had time to throw out a dozen kunai's, Itachi can use Amateratsu in that time-frame as well. Plus after V2, Itachi still has Susano.

Now let's compare their achievements and see how minato would have done it 

1) Minato cant just "Seal it in any object" nor would he have been able to fight it whilst being blind and dying from a disease.   I'd love to see Minato try to use FTG while blind.

2) Minato could have done better to be honest.  His FTG is good for escaping and his intellect/analytical skills is a league above Jiraiya's after all.



Now, tell me what Minato would have done against SM Kabuto?      Against Edo Nagato?
Just stating facts here.....can Minato successfully stop Edo tensei?    can Minato, Bee and Naruto seal Nagato just as quickly while using just 1 jutsu each?

You can't just pick and choose certain scenarios. There are things a ninja is suited for and things they don't have the ability to do, but that doesn't necessarily make them less powerful.


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2016)

^ but how does that stop the BD. Also yata defending against what ? A BD ? Based on what ?

Lol

Minato is a sensor . Who says he needs his eyes to fight ?

Minato against could simply seal nagato with the Hakke seal if u plug him in itachi situation 

Against Kabuto yes minato has no genjutsu skills that I know of . However contract seal would simply rid Kabuto of his ET control 

So that works just fine


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## Sapherosth (Apr 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> ^ but how does that stop the BD. Also yata defending against what ? A BD ? Based on what ?
> 
> Lol
> 
> ...





Amateratsu hits Kyuubi > Kyuubi screams in pain > Bijuudama no more.   V4 Susano looks like a formidable defense on its own already. Add that to the hype of Yata Mirror there's no reason why It can't tank a BD. 


Being a sensor does not grant you the ability to fight whilst blind. Was Minato even a good sensor to begin with?  I mean, compared with the REAL sensors, like Perfect SM and Karin.

Seal Nagato with the Hakke seal into what? How is he going to damage Nagato to the point of sealing him?   How will they escape CT?


Against Kabuto we don't even know if that contract seal will work. But if it does, I don't think Minato will use it purely for the fact that the Edo's would still be there and will never be able to return to the afterlife again. (Without SOT6P of course). 


There are things certain characters simply cannot do.


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2016)

Except that it lacks feats . Also tanking BD Would cause a massive explosion which would still do damage to the hokage statue and hurt those below . So it's still not comparable in any case . Amaterasu before BD is launched is his only option 

Yes minato was a good sensor his fighting style revolves around it . Why spam Kunai everywhere around the world if u can't even sense what's around there when u appear ? Sorta risky ain't it . He also got good sensing feats 

And yes sensors can react and fight targets they can't see . Try harder 

If u plug in minato for itachi in that situation . CT is trolled by sensing barrier 

Nagato wasn't damaged when itachi sealed him, his LoS was blocked . So minato seals nagato into a stone since he can seal a target into a person or object . 

 the statement on ET is baseless , all that would happen is they will be out of Kabuto control . Now those who don't want to fight which was most of them will simply release themselves from the technique and move on . So ET is stopped either way 

So in this situation minato skills still work very well in itachi situations however the reverse ain't exactly true


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## IzayaOrihara (Apr 16, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> So what? Itachi said in the manga he would surpass madara if he got ems but everyone strongly rejects that.



The madara he was talking about was pre-Rinnegan Obito. The one that was following Deidara around. Stop playing you know Itachi dont know the real Madara. Funny you say that considering Madara can beat Itachi without using PS, which is what EMS gives you.


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## Saru (Apr 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Except that it lacks feats . Also tanking BD Would cause a massive explosion which would still do damage to the hokage statue and hurt those below . So it's still not comparable in any case . Amaterasu before BD is launched is his only option




Bijuudama don't always explode immediately upon impact. If we take Zetsu's statement seriously, then Itachi would be able to deflect Bijuudama, and if so, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that he could deflect it in another direction either. 

You can't really acknowledge that Yata no Kagami might work and then denounce it as an option in the same breath. Based on hype, Itachi's Yata no Kagami _could_ reflect a Bijuudama. Aside from the fact that Yata no Kagami lacks feats, there's no other plausible reason for Itachi not being able to deal with a Bijuudama using one of his most powerful weapons. The fact that Minato was able to do it opens the door for other characters to accomplish something similar. It seems biased IMO to assume that reflecting Bijuudama is impossible when a character comparable to Itachi in various aspects was capable of dealing with it just fine, especially given the fact that Itachi does indeed have a tool with the appropriate amount of hype and functionality to suggest that it could deal with a Bijuudama. 

Itachi can put a leash on any of the Bijuu with his Sharingan, yet this is somewhow less of stretch than dealing with one of their attacks? One of those capabilities is a lot more dramatic than the other in terms of established power dynamics. I don't think it's necessarily wrong or right to assume that Itachi could deflect a Bijuudama with Yata no Kagami due to it obviously lacking the feats to suggest that it can do so, but I do think it's a possibility worth pointing out.



> If u plug in minato for itachi in that situation . CT is trolled by sensing barrier




Minato needs a kunai for that to work. All of his kunai would be attracted to the force of Chibaku Tensei.​


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2016)

@saru

How about the Kunai he simply always has outside that specific battle field ? Eg: the one he used to deflect Juubi BD or the one he mentioned using to deflect Juubito BD

Again it's biased to ignore those marks he has shown in IC setting in the manga to have and has used everytime 

No worse than me claiming yata can't deflect BD

Though it's not like itachi actually handled CT by himself here minato could . The same way those with ST could 

I don't dismiss susanoo being able to block BD or deflect it . However unless he is deflecting upwards high enough it could still risk damage to the village


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## Sapherosth (Apr 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Except that it lacks feats . Also tanking BD Would cause a massive explosion which would still do damage to the hokage statue and hurt those below . So it's still not comparable in any case . Amaterasu before BD is launched is his only option
> 
> Yes minato was a good sensor his fighting style revolves around it . Why spam Kunai everywhere around the world if u can't even sense what's around there when u appear ? Sorta risky ain't it . He also got good sensing feats
> 
> ...




What are Minato's good sensing feats?    Have you got any proof that all sensors are capable of fighting without eye sight?    They can certainly try, but it doesn't mean they will be able to fight EFFECTIVELY without it.

Usually sensors will have to concentrate and focus only on sensing before they can sense anything. Even KARIN has to concentrate and form a seal when she's trying to sense. The only one who managed to dodge without doing that was probably Muu, but we've already seen non-sensors do the same thing.
Given the fact that the only 2 time we've seen a fighter managing to fight effectively without eye sight happens to be from Madara SM and Kabuto SM. I can definitely see a pattern here.


Do you have any proof that he can actually seal Nagato into a stone? lol.... I would love to see it to be honest. It's a rather bold claim. Usually when people try to seal something, they have to deal a considerable amount of damage or disable their movements, that's why I asked how they were going to damage Nagato.   Itachi didn't really have to since his attack was straight up seal without resistance.



My comment on Edo tensei is not baseless at all. We've already seen that the only way to cancel the edo tensei is to force Kabuto to form the seals. Even if they are out of Kabuto's control (assuming it even works in the first place), the souls of those edo's are still trapped in their bodies forever.  They can't just "Release" themselves when they even had SOT6P release it. 

It is you who are baseless in assuming the Edo tensei's will just release themselves when nothing even indicates that they can. The only exceptions would be Tobirama, Hashirama and Madara. Even then it would still be debatable, since their feats only stretching as far as breaking control from Edo tensei user and not releasing their souls.


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2016)

It's better to fight with eyes however they aren't as vulnerable as itachi would be who isn't even a sensor 

Distinguishing between an enemy using clones and 18 different enemies . Sensing Naruto a country mile away 

Muu doesn't have to do this nor does minato . Try harder karin limitations aren't minato's . Cute effort though 

Kyuubi was sealed into Naruto via Hakke seal with no resistance so again why the false disingenuous bullshit claim that nagato must be damaged for the Hakke seal to work ?

It will work it's a seal purpose made to break the contract between a summoner and their summon. ET is a summoning jutsu 

Again u don't need So6P to release them , sasori released himself . They can all do that 

So try harder , sasori left by his own will . 

Though if ur claim was true , ET not under Kabuto control don't have to fight so again ET purpose in the war would be defeated


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## Sapherosth (Apr 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> It's better to fight with eyes however they aren't as vulnerable as itachi would be who isn't even a sensor
> 
> Distinguishing between an enemy using clones and 18 different enemies . Sensing Naruto a country mile away
> 
> ...





Lol....

Itachi's bunshin threw a kunai behind himself to hit 2 of Naruto's bunshin who was trying to ambush.   That sounds like a "Sensor" feat to me, even though Itachi isn't a sensor. 



Also, Minato did that when he was touching the ground wasn't it? It's not exactly practical in a fight. Additionally, he didn't sense Naruto, he sensed the Kyuubi's chakra because he too had the Kyuubi's chakra inside.    Again, you have literally nothing to suggest Minato can fight effectively while blind. 

Karin's limitations suggests that Sensors can't just sense and fight as if it was walk in the park. There's a reason why SM was the only form of sensing shown to be able to fight without eyes.

I'm sorry but sealing Kyuubi inside Naruto and sealing Nagato into a rock is two completely different things. Can you actually see Minato sealing Nagato......Nagato....INTO A ROCK!?    That sounds laughable really.

It doesn't matter if it works or not because the Edo's won't be able to free themselves. That's a fact you cannot deny at all. Sasori found his peace. You cannot say other edo's will find their peace as well. Additionally, we know that edo's have the fuda tags inside their heads, so we don't know if the contract seal would work on something like that. Just a food for thought.


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2016)

Minato a sensor he would easily pull itachi feats in those situations


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## Saru (Apr 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @saru
> 
> How about the Kunai he simply always has outside that specific battle field ? Eg: the one he used to deflect Juubi BD or the one he mentioned using to deflect Juubito BD
> 
> ...




Well, I wouldn't ignore Minato's in-verse FTG Seals if I ever thought they were a factor. The only reason I ignore them is because *a)* Minato can send an opponent's attacks back at them, which would probably be a lot more productive that sending it elsewhere in most situations, and *b)* it leads to people saying "Minato runs away and kills the opponent in their sleep" or something absurd. It's more accurate to say that I forget about them due their redundancy and only remember to exclude them (or invoke BFR) when someone tries to state that Minato can just warp to Konoha and stalemate, or that Minato can just warp elsewhere then come back later to kill someone in their sleep (and I do remember something like this being said on numerous occasions).

But what you say is fair enough. I agree with you. I just got the impression from the other post that you had opened the door up to the possibility of Itachi deflecting BD successfully and then shut it just as quickly without giving Itachi a fair shake.​


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2016)

Those people who say minato runs away and kills them in their sleep are idiots though since he can only do that if he has marked the person already in which case he can just kill them now . Since you aren't an idiot I suggest u ignore said people 

The fair shake is while he can won't be nearly as seamless as what minato did


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