# Zoro vs Fruitless Fujitora



## Finalbeta (May 26, 2015)

Location: Dressrosa
Distance: 100m

First scenario: Zoro shows nothing more than he did till now

Second scenario: Zoro closes again the gap with Luffy, so he becomes about as strong as G4 Luffy


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (May 26, 2015)

Zoro probably has better sword techniques while Fuji may edge him out in raw stats

Extreme diff either way


----------



## Patrick (May 26, 2015)

First Scenario: Mid Dif win for Issho. Fujitora is an Admiral for fucks sake. He has Top Tier physical attributes as well. Zoro ain't suddenly surpassing him if he didn't have his fruit.

Second Scenario: It becomes a High Dif win for Issho. G4 Luffy is pretty much as close as it gets to Top Tier and fruitless Issho would be one of the weaker Top Tiers. If I think about it I might actually move this one up to Extreme Dif for Issho but I'm not sure.


----------



## StrawHat4Life (May 26, 2015)

A DFless Fujitora beats Zoro with mid difficulty. If Zoro somehow gained a buff comparable to G4 he could probably push Fujitora to very high difficulty.


----------



## Bernkastel (May 26, 2015)

Fuji isnt like the other admirals.
He is still a swordsman and a top tier one on top of that so his DF-removal doesnt affect him that much.
Zoro obviously isnt giving more than mid diff.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (May 26, 2015)

Fujitora stats are too above Zoro's


----------



## RileyD (May 26, 2015)

Zoro hasn't even closed the stats of g2/g3 luffy, so he isn't closing the g4 gap.
Zoro is a more skilled "swordsman" than Fujitora, but not by much, and Fujitoras stats are much better.
Base Fujitora>Base Sabo>g2/g3 Luffy>Asura Zoro>Base Luffy>Base Zoro


----------



## Gohara (May 26, 2015)

Zoro wins with high to extremely high difficulty, IMO.  In terms of physical strength and defense Zoro's are usually superior to those who are overall a level above him, so I'm more confident in Zoro besting Fujitora in those categories than I am Fujitora besting Zoro in those categories.  Based on what we've seen, which isn't much for Fujitora, I would say Zoro has better swordsmanship.  Fujitora may have the edge in terms of Haki, though.  So overall it should still be a close fight, but I give Zoro the edge.


----------



## barreltheif (May 26, 2015)

If could see Fujitora winning with high diff.


----------



## Furinji Saiga (May 26, 2015)

Zoro gets mid diffed based on current showing

Stats are below Fuji's, as well I think that Fujitora is also the better swordsman.


----------



## Yuki (May 26, 2015)

Fuji is not like the other admirals

From what he know he is pretty new to his DF. The others had them back when Robin was a child. As such he is likely stronger than them without a DF. 

Unless Zoro does have some G4 level stuff, Fuji wins mid dif.


----------



## TheWiggian (May 26, 2015)

Zoro gets Issho'ed with low (high) - mid (low) diff.


----------



## trance (May 26, 2015)

Issho was matching Sabo - who is comfortably above Zoro in the raw strength area - blow for blow in melee combat-range. He loses destructive might but he's not in danger of losing. He beats Zoro with moderate difficulty.


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (May 26, 2015)

Zoro stalemated Fujitora even with his fruit


----------



## ShadoLord (May 26, 2015)

Fujitora mid-diffs, mid-diff even if Zoro is as strong as G4 Luffy.


----------



## trance (May 26, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Zoro stalemated Fujitora even with his fruit



Mihawk couldn't hit an attentive pre-TS Luffy.

Pre-TS Luffy > Mihawk in speed.


----------



## -Z- (May 27, 2015)

Stop with these threads. All Admirals w/o DFs can still beat Luffy & Co. (respectively).


----------



## jNdee~ (May 27, 2015)

lol @ deleting posts. It's the truth yet deleted.


----------



## Grimsley (May 27, 2015)

Straw hat Ziggy said:


> Stop with these threads. All Admirals w/o DFs can still beat Luffy & Co. (respectively).



proof? admirals without df = gladiators without their swords or shields


----------



## Luke (May 27, 2015)

Issho wins with mid difficulty.


----------



## Amol (May 27, 2015)

Unrestricted Issho vs Zoro : Issho wins with low diff.
DFless Issho vs Zoro : Issho wins with Mid diff .
Zoro needs another arc to be able to reach Doflamingo's level that is the when he may get good enough stats to compete with Top tiers (DD is strongest High tier).


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (May 27, 2015)

Amol said:


> Unrestricted Issho vs Zoro : Issho wins with low diff.
> DFless Issho vs Zoro : Issho wins with Mid diff .
> Zoro needs another arc to be able to reach Doflamingo's level that is the when he may get good enough stats to compete with Top tiers (DD is strongest High tier).



Doflamingo would outright beat Fruitless Fujitora, not only give him "mid diff"


----------



## ShadoLord (May 27, 2015)

Rayleigh was 100x stronger than Pre-skip Luffy, and their time-skip self(Zoro) was only 10x stronger, because his technique was literally 10x stronger, which would still make a difference that top tiers of Rayleigh's level are 10x stronger than the Current SNs captain and Zoro. 

And Doflamingo is at most twice as strong as the Current SNs, so he wouldn't ouright defeat even a fruitless Fujitora.


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (May 27, 2015)

Only 1-eye + no Ashura 

Zoro has only shown about 25% of his true strength, while his captain has unfortunately already revealed all his cards with G4


----------



## Etherborn (May 27, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> while his captain has unfortunately already revealed all his cards with G4



This is what I thought before G4. And then...G4 happened.


----------



## RileyD (May 28, 2015)

Lord Wave said:


> Rayleigh was 100x stronger than Pre-skip Luffy, and their time-skip self(Zoro) was only 10x stronger, because his technique was literally 10x stronger, which would still make a difference that top tiers of Rayleigh's level are 10x stronger than the Current SNs captain and Zoro.
> 
> And Doflamingo is at most twice as strong as the Current SNs, so he wouldn't ouright defeat even a fruitless Fujitora.


Luffy was almost twice as strong as Zoro pre skip and has now widened that gap.


HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Only 1-eye + no Ashura
> 
> Zoro has only shown about 25% of his true strength, while his captain has unfortunately already revealed all his cards with G4


It is illogical to assume that the next time the crew have fights Luffy will not pull out something more impressive than whatever Oda decides to show for Zoro because that is not how the fights work.
Zoro is sweating at full capacity and unable to slow down birdcage by himself, he has shown 100% of his strength trying and failing to stop birdcage. 1080 Pound cannon probably is his best ranged slash


----------



## TheWiggian (May 28, 2015)

RileyD said:


> Luffy was almost twice as strong as Zoro pre skip and has now widened that gap.
> 
> It is illogical to assume that the next time the crew have fights Luffy will not pull out something more impressive than whatever Oda decides to show for Zoro because that is not how the fights work.
> Zoro is sweating at full capacity and unable to slow down birdcage by himself, he has shown 100% of his strength trying and failing to stop birdcage. 1080 Pound cannon probably is his best ranged slash



Yea right pre skip, Luffy was twice as strong, that means he could mid (low) diff him. Post skip he widened the gap and can low diff Zoro now and by EoS he stomps Zoro? Get the fuck out of here...


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (May 28, 2015)

RileyD said:


> Luffy was almost twice as strong as Zoro pre skip and has now widened that gap.
> 
> It is illogical to assume that the next time the crew have fights Luffy will not pull out something more impressive than whatever Oda decides to show for Zoro because that is not how the fights work.
> Zoro is sweating at full capacity and unable to slow down birdcage by himself, he has shown 100% of his strength trying and failing to stop birdcage. 1080 Pound cannon probably is his best ranged slash



Fujitora is also exerting himself. By your logic Fujitora can't stop the birdcage either, as has been delegated to a supporting role for "Zoro-sempai"


----------



## Raid3r2010 (May 28, 2015)

Fujitora with mid diff.

Zoro might have the better skill as a swordsman overall but he should lose some points in physical stats


----------



## Captain Altintop (May 28, 2015)

Scenario 1) Fujitora wins mid ( mid ) diff.

Scenario 2) Fujitora wins high ( mid ) diff.


----------



## RileyD (May 29, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Only 1-eye + no Ashura
> 
> Zoro has only shown about 25% of his true strength, while his captain has unfortunately already revealed all his cards with G4





HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Fujitora is also exerting himself. By your logic Fujitora can't stop the birdcage either, as has been delegated to a supporting role for "Zoro-sempai"



Fujitora just wants to save civilians, not cut birdcage (like Zoro claimed he would), he's NOT sweating, and NOT even bothering to try to use his df to slow birdcage. One arm holding the sword, CASUAL.


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (May 29, 2015)

Fujitora is using haki and shaking/struggling

He considers it an honour to assist Zoro


----------



## RileyD (May 29, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Fujitora is using haki and shaking/struggling
> 
> He considers it an honour to assist Zoro



He's been using polite speak the whole arc.

No sweat, no gravity, one arm.

Zoro helpless to stop let alone cut birdcage needs all the assistance he can get.


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (May 29, 2015)

RileyD said:


> He's been using polite speak the whole arc.
> 
> No sweat, no gravity, one arm.
> 
> Zoro helpless to stop let alone cut birdcage needs all the assistance he can get.ldryoa



Zoro: no bandana, only 2 swords, no DF

and Fujitora considers it an "honor" to assist him


----------



## Bernkastel (May 29, 2015)

He doesn't even know who Zoro is even though they "clashed equally"


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (May 29, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> He doesn't even know who Zoro is even though they "clashed equally"



he was talking about the Wano scrubs in that panel

the very next panel he says its an "honor" to assist Zoro

learn2read


----------



## Luke (May 29, 2015)

Fujitora vs The Birdcage

Birdcage wins with mid difficulty.


----------



## Bernkastel (May 29, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> he was talking about the Wano scrubs in that panel
> 
> the very next panel he says its an "honor" to assist Zoro
> 
> learn2read





He never mentions Zoro but It's ok i understand..you wet dreams have become your "reality"


----------



## jNdee~ (May 30, 2015)

I swear, there are like 2-3 reasonable Zoro fans in OL. All of the others are dumbfucks


----------



## Zuhaitz (May 30, 2015)

Fuji wins 11 times out of 10 times.


----------



## Canute87 (May 30, 2015)

A swordsman with more physical strength better COA and FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR better COO I don't see how  Zoro stands a chance here.


But then again this isn't the Oda we once knew


----------



## Gohara (May 31, 2015)

Where is it stated/shown/implied that Fujitora has more physical strength than Zoro?  I'm not necessarily saying it's not true, but I certainly don't recall anything clearly suggesting that.  I also doubt that the gap between their Observation Haki is massive.  I can see it being sizable.  Fujitora having better Armanent Haki is unproven, but it's not unreasonable.


----------



## jNdee~ (May 31, 2015)

bro he's an admiral.


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (May 31, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Fuji wins 11 times out of 10 times.



proven that Zoro-haters are dumb as fuck


----------



## Canute87 (May 31, 2015)

Gohara said:


> Where is it stated/shown/implied that Fujitora has more physical strength than Zoro?
> 
> I'm not necessarily saying it's not true, but I certainly don't recall anything clearly suggesting that.



Admiral, some of the highest class of fighters in this manga, somewhere Zoro hasn't reached yet.



> *I also doubt that the gap between their Observation Haki is massive.  I* can see it being sizable.  Fujitora having better Armanent Haki is unproven, but it's not unreasonable.



Fujitora's COO is considerably in tune with the environment to even go as far as even sensing movement of clouds.
Zoro could barely sense a big ass man in stone.  The difference is massively clear.

To be able to sense things of this magnitude makes you far better and predicting attacks also given his natural increase in his other senses.


----------



## Gohara (May 31, 2015)

I agree that Zoro is below Admiral level in terms of overall power, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his physical strength specifically is below theirs in general.  Brook is more powerful than some Giants in terms of overall power, but they're likely physically stronger than him.

That sort of stuff isn't only something you can tell using Observation Haki.  A lot of blind people have great senses.  Also, using Observation Haki requires one to be in a certain state of mind.  Plus, I think Zoro barely sensing Pica is an exaggeration.  That being said, I can agree that Fujitora's senses are likely significantly better than Zoro's in general.


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (May 31, 2015)

Gohara said:


> .  That being said, I can agree that Fujitora's senses are likely significantly better than Zoro's in general.



Zoro has 1 more eye than Fuji

If he opens his other eye, he'll have 2 more than Fuji


----------



## GreenStache (May 31, 2015)

Fujitora high diff


----------



## trance (Jun 1, 2015)

Gohara said:


> I agree that Zoro is below Admiral level in terms of overall power, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his physical strength specifically is below theirs in general.  Brook is more powerful than some Giants in terms of overall power, but they're likely physically stronger than him.



The Admiral's main source of power lies in their Devil Fruits but I would think that to be registered as the most elite fighters the Marines have to offer, your physical stats have to be at an incredibly formidable level; matched or surpassed by few IMO. With a combination of his raw strength and prowess with a sword, Kizaru was on equal footing with Rayleigh, who is likely a good deal stronger than Zoro. 

Now, that doesn't _necessarily_ translate to Issho possessing as much as or more physical strength than Kizaru but he should definitely be in the same general ballpark.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 1, 2015)

We're just guessing Fuji is a master swordsman but it's a good guess based on his demeanor, his DF that doesn't as fully encompass the whole of his fighting style as that of the original colored trio, and the man he's based on.

Zoro isn't beating an Admiral master swordsman in a swordfight. So unless we're wrong about Fuji being one, mosshair loses. I'll say he can put up mid diff, obviously under the assumption he has yet to show his full stuff and it will be beastly and not that far off from G4 when he does.


----------



## Dellinger (Jun 1, 2015)

Oh my God,Gohara with his nonsense posts again.


----------



## Ryuksgelus (Jun 1, 2015)

Gohara said:


> I agree that Zoro is below Admiral level in terms of overall power, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his physical strength specifically is below theirs in general.  Brook is more powerful than some Giants in terms of overall power, but they're likely physically stronger than him.
> 
> That sort of stuff isn't only something you can tell using Observation Haki.  A lot of blind people have great senses.  Also, using Observation Haki requires one to be in a certain state of mind.  Plus, I think Zoro barely sensing Pica is an exaggeration.  That being said, I can agree that Fujitora's senses are likely significantly better than Zoro's in general.



Admirals have to clash with the likes of Garp, Kaidou, Shanks, Jozu, Mihawk, and other top tiers. All of their stats are obscenely high. 

John Giant with his fullbody weight behind a swing could barely make WB budge. Akainu blocks a swing of WB's Bisento casually with his foot. Kizaru held down WB's Bisento with a single foot. Fujitora was not overwhelmed in physical combat against a guy who send Burgess flying.  

How much do you think Luffy and Zoro can deadlift? How much can Aokiji? Serious question.


----------



## Gohara (Jun 1, 2015)

Admirals don't _have_ to clash with Shanks, Garp, Kaidou, and Mihawk and in fact we've never really seen them do so.  We've only seen Shanks block a blow from pre time skip Akainu without much of a problem.  Also, clashing with a character doesn't revolve around physical strength.  It's about overall power.  Aokiji fighting on par with Jozu doesn't mean Jozu isn't physically stronger than Aokiji.

Akainu blocks a blow aimed at Marine foot soldiers, and his foot is powered by his Devil Fruit abilities (if I remember correctly the same can be said about Kizaru), so it wasn't really casual.  Also, when you're kicking down at something and someone is having to pull up, you have a significant advantage.  The same can mostly be said about Whitebeard vs. Kizaru, except instead of the blow being aimed at Marine foot soldiers Whitebeard was reaching out to prevent Kizaru from leaving the area and Kizaru briefly stood on top of Whitebeard's Bisento.  Kizaru's physical strength is mainly in his legs as well.  It's also worth noting that Old Whitebeard is battle worn at the time.  The Whitebeard vs. John Giant situation is different.  Additionally, John Giant isn't Zoro and pre time skip Akainu and Kizaru aren't Fujitora.  So even if we set aside the significant differences in the situation, that at most would only suggest that pre time skip Akainu and Kizaru- not Fujitora- are physically stronger than John Giant, not Zoro.

When Sabo sends Burgess flying, it's when he comes at him from behind.  Plus, who's to say Zoro can't do the same?

As for your questions- I have no idea.



Trance said:


> The Admiral's main source of power lies in their Devil Fruits but I would think that to be registered as the most elite fighters the Marines have to offer, your physical stats have to be at an incredibly formidable level; matched or surpassed by few IMO.



Other than them being the most elite fighters in the Marines, as I would just say they're some of the most elite fighters in the Marines, I mostly agree with this.  However, Zoro's physical strength is likely top notch or close to top notch amongst characters below Yonkou level.  His physical strength is generally extraordinary even compared to characters around his level.  I still think Fujitora is a level above Zoro in terms of overall power, though.



Trance said:


> With a combination of his raw strength and prowess with a sword, Kizaru was on equal footing with Rayleigh, who is likely a good deal stronger than Zoro.



His sword is part of his Light Fruit's abilities as well, so I wouldn't say it's entirely his physical strength.  Plus, I'm not sure Old Rayleigh has more physical strength than Zoro.  I would say what Old Rayleigh bests Zoro in is likely swordsmanship and Haki.  Even if Old Rayleigh has more physical strength than Zoro, I'm not sure Fujitora's physical strength is around the level of Old Rayleigh.

Fujitora could have more physical strength than Zoro.  It's just unclear whether or not that's the case.


----------



## Vengeance (Jun 2, 2015)

Zoro isn't beating a fruitless Fujitora yet, even if he was on par with G4 Luffy. 
Scenario 1: Fujitora mid difficulty
Scenario 2: Fujitora very high difficulty


----------



## Ryuksgelus (Jun 2, 2015)

Gohara said:


> *Admirals don't have to clash with Shanks, Garp, Kaidou, and Mihawk and in fact we've never really seen them do so. * We've only seen Shanks block a blow from pre time skip Akainu without much of a problem.  *Also, clashing with a character doesn't revolve around physical strength.  *It's about overall power.  Aokiji fighting on par with Jozu doesn't mean Jozu isn't physically stronger than Aokiji.



Yes they do. Something is wrong when it takes one sentence to see how flawed your logic is.

In a prolonged fight you're going to clash, fight in cqc, and not always be in your preferred range.  Stronger people in this series are well rounded. They have to be because they do not know what situations they will fall into. 

There are no Enels at the top(other than maybe 3-eyes if she is a top tier)

All you do is type paragraphs to try and throw out as much drivel as you can to to cast doubt on the most simple points. Bringing up Jozu and the Admirals is a fine example of that. A logia has an easier time fighting the way they want too. Kizaru still shows how versatile they are. So does Aokiji when we know he fought a guy with an elemental advantage for 10 days straight.

Fujitora is not a logia. He is primarily a mid to long range fighter but there is no way he is getting overwhelmed in a close quarters fight by the likes of Akainu, Mihawk, Jozu, Garp, and Kaidou just like he wasn't overwhlemed in CQC against someone who specializes in it. He has enough physical strength to block and parry their blows and stand his ground without his arms going numb from their power, his sword breaking, his legs giving out, his stamina being significantly drained. etc.

Sabo attacked Burgess from the front in plain view :-/?

You have no idea? I'm not really asking for exact numbers. Simply asking if Zoro can deadlift 2000 tons casually what can Fuji, Jozu, and Mihawk do? From all your posts it seems you think the difference is not multiplicative when it absolutely is.


----------



## trance (Jun 3, 2015)

Gohara said:


> Other than them being the most elite fighters in the Marines, as I would just say they're some of the most elite fighters in the Marines



Why you had to squeeze this in I don't know as I don't care.



> However, Zoro's physical strength is likely top notch or close to top notch amongst characters below Yonkou level.  His physical strength is generally extraordinary even compared to characters around his level.  I still think Fujitora is a level above Zoro in terms of overall power, though.



We haven't seen the limits of Issho's physical strength and while we also haven't seen Zoro's, Issho has better feats at the moment.



> His sword is part of his Light Fruit's abilities as well, so I wouldn't say it's entirely his physical strength.



He used his powers to _create_ the sword but when it came to dueling Rayleigh, it was his own physical stats at that point.



> Plus, I'm not sure Old Rayleigh has more physical strength than Zoro.



I don't see why there are any doubts that he doesn't.



> Even if Old Rayleigh has more physical strength than Zoro, I'm not sure Fujitora's physical strength is around the level of Old Rayleigh.



Again, _they should be in the same general ballpark_



> Fujitora could have more physical strength than Zoro.  It's just unclear whether or not that's the case.



I don't see how it's unclear.


----------



## Amol (Jun 3, 2015)

I wonder how would Sword fight between 
Issho (as normal human) vs Sasaki Kojiro will go .
One is blind and One is deaf.


----------



## Gohara (Jun 3, 2015)

Trance said:


> We haven't seen the limits of Issho's physical strength and while we also haven't seen Zoro's, Issho has better feats at the moment.



What feats are you comparing and why do you find Fujitora's more impressive than Zoro's?



Trance said:


> He used his powers to _create_ the sword but when it came to dueling Rayleigh, it was his own physical stats at that point.



That's debatable.  Does his light sword, for instance, take on the same power an energy blast of his can take on?



Trance said:


> I don't see why there are any doubts that he doesn't.



It's not that I doubt it, I just don't see anything suggesting one way or the other.



Trance said:


> Again, _they should be in the same general ballpark_



The same as above really.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Yes they do.



Do you have evidence/proof of that?



Ryuksgelus said:


> In a prolonged fight you're going to clash, fight in cqc, and not always be in your preferred range.  Stronger people in this series are well rounded. They have to be because they do not know what situations they will fall into.



I partially agree.  I don't disagree that the Admirals are well rounded fighters.  I'm not disagreeing that Fujitora is physically strong.  I'm asking for evidence/proof of him being physically stronger than Zoro.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Bringing up Jozu and the Admirals is a fine example of that.



How so?



Ryuksgelus said:


> Fujitora is not a logia. He is primarily a mid to long range fighter but there is no way he is getting overwhelmed in a close quarters fight by the likes of Akainu, Mihawk, Jozu, Garp, and Kaidou just like he wasn't overwhlemed in CQC against someone who specializes in it.



Maybe, maybe not.  They're all likely physically stronger than Sabo.  Besides, he wouldn't have to be overwhelmed by them.  He could still be overpowered by them.



Ryuksgelus said:


> He has enough physical strength to block and parry their blows



Possibly, but we have yet to see him fight them.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Sabo attacked Burgess from the front in plain view





I don't literally mean from behind, I just mean he lands a surprise blow on Burgess.



Ryuksgelus said:


> You have no idea?



Indeed, and it would be easier to simply say if I give Zoro a 2,000 in physical strength, I would imagine Fujitora would have at least around an 1,800 but could go as high as the low to mid 2,000s.  Mihawk I would say is at least in the mid to high 2,000s, but could be a little higher.  I'm not really sure where I would rank Jozu's, but I do think he's physically stronger than Zoro.


----------



## trance (Jun 4, 2015)

Gohara said:


> What feats are you comparing and why do you find Fujitora's more impressive than Zoro's?



Clashing on equal terms with Sabo, who seemed to possessed the raw strength required to defeat Burgess, someone Luffy - who is at least equal to Zoro in the physical strength area - may not have been to overpower as easily, if at all. That's partially why Oda introduced him in the time and place he did, IMO.



> That's debatable. Does his light sword, for instance, take on the same power an energy blast of his can take on?



I don't see why the physical impact behind his sword swings would actually _increase_ when wielding his light sword. More lethality for sure - since it's likely extremely razor-sharp - but as far as actually granting him enhanced physical power? What's the basis behind this reasoning?


----------



## Gohara (Jun 5, 2015)

-In terms of physical strength how much stronger is Sabo than Burgess?  Also, we don't really know how Luffy compares to Burgess in terms of physical strength.  I actually personally think Luffy is physically stronger than Burgess and maybe even Sabo.

-It's not so much that it's making Kizaru physically stronger, it's that it may contribute to the strength of the sword itself.  Kizaru's kicks when combined with his Light abilities are significantly more powerful than his normal kicks.  So, it may be that Kizaru's physical strength + his light abilities= the strength of the sword.  For Rayleigh it's just his physical strength as far as we know.


----------



## Tenma (Jun 5, 2015)

Gohara said:


> His sword is part of his Light Fruit's abilities as well, so I wouldn't say it's entirely his physical strength.  Plus, I'm not sure Old Rayleigh has more physical strength than Zoro.  I would say what Old Rayleigh bests Zoro in is likely swordsmanship and Haki.  Even if Old Rayleigh has more physical strength than Zoro, I'm not sure Fujitora's physical strength is around the level of Old Rayleigh.



Give Kizaru a good quality sword like a Kitetsu and he would stalemate Rayleigh again.


> -It's not so much that it's making Kizaru physically stronger, it's that it may contribute to the strength of the sword itself. Kizaru's kicks when combined with his Light abilities are significantly more powerful than his normal kicks. So, it may be that Kizaru's physical strength + his light abilities= the strength of the sword. For Rayleigh it's just his physical strength as far as we know.



Makes zero sense for a sword to give the user higher physical strength. It is likely sharper than a normal sword, probably more durable and likely less reliant on Haki to deal damage. But Kizaru's swing speed, swing strength, reflexes and swordsmanship are unchanged by the sword he uses. Common sense really. Kizaru's lightsword is more than likely a pretty good sword, but it's likely Rayleigh's own isn't just some ordinary rusty saber.

Unless Kizaru is using 'lightspeed swings' since Rayleigh and Kizaru failed to actually hit each other in their exchange the material the sword is made of means jack shit.


----------



## trance (Jun 5, 2015)

Gohara said:


> -In terms of physical strength how much stronger is Sabo than Burgess?



Around the same honestly. I'd say Burgess may have the edge in terms of raw physical strength but this is going both off of the way he's been portrayed as and giving benefit of the doubt - albeit, only partially - but when they clashed blows, Sabo met his elbow with a thrust and didn't move an inch. 



> Also, we don't really know how Luffy compares to Burgess in terms of physical strength.  I actually personally think Luffy is physically stronger than Burgess and maybe even Sabo.



I could see Burgess being a legitimate threat to Luffy. IMO, while Luffy is indeed stronger - thanks to G4 - he would still struggle with Burgess if they fought, with the latter being as strong or stronger than G2 and G3 and necessitating the usage of G4 to win, which wouldn't have been ideal for that situation. Just wrong place, wrong time. In the area of simple brute strength, I'd say Burgess but Luffy has greater prowess in other areas that may even it out.



> -It's not so much that it's making Kizaru physically stronger, it's that it may contribute to the strength of the sword itself.  Kizaru's kicks when combined with his Light abilities are significantly more powerful than his normal kicks.  So, it may be that Kizaru's physical strength + his light abilities= the strength of the sword.  For Rayleigh it's just his physical strength as far as we know.



But that would mean at least two of his moves are built around the same basic principle which, while it certainly can happen, it may not apply to Kizaru's powers, or at least those two moves. 

(A.) One is about augmenting the force behind one's attack for significantly enhanced offense.

(B.) The other is defined by being able to near instantly fabricate a weapon at one's own will.

Looking beyond that is just speculating which, while we're all free to do so, isn't what I'm interested in. I'm interested in something more tangible and easier to agree on.


----------



## Gohara (Jun 5, 2015)

^In terms of physical strength I think Gear 4th Luffy > Gear 3rd Luffy > Burgess > Gear 2nd Luffy > Base Luffy.  However, it's possible that Gear 3rd Luffy and Burgess are around the same level in terms of physical strength.

Well it may mean that the source of his Light based abilities and combinations all come from his Light Fruit, but that's okay.  His Light Fruit is one of the most powerful Devil Fruits in the series either way.



Tenma said:


> Give Kizaru a good quality sword like a Kitetsu and he would stalemate Rayleigh again.



Maybe.



Tenma said:


> Makes zero sense for a sword to give the user higher physical strength.



I respond to that here:



Gohara said:


> It's not so much that it's making Kizaru physically stronger, it's that it may contribute to the strength of the sword itself.  Kizaru's kicks when combined with his Light abilities are significantly more powerful than his normal kicks.  So, it may be that Kizaru's physical strength + his light abilities= the strength of the sword.



The material a sword is made out of actually means a lot in general.  A lightsaber is going to cut through other swords like butter.  The steel a sword is made out of as well, in addition to the overall make of the sword, are also factors.  The source of Kizaru's Light sword comes from the power of his Devil Fruit, which is one of the most powerful Devil Fruits in the series.


----------



## trance (Jun 8, 2015)

Gohara said:


> ^In terms of physical strength I think Gear 4th Luffy > Gear 3rd Luffy > Burgess > Gear 2nd Luffy > Base Luffy.  However, it's possible that Gear 3rd Luffy and Burgess are around the same level in terms of physical strength.



Burgess posed such a threat that Sabo said he'd have his hands full with him. Burgess' most prominent trait is his brute strength, which is at such a level that he can launch extremely powerful concussive blasts of air that can seriously damage the infrastructure of a large structure like the Coliseum with just one attack.



> Well it may mean that the source of his Light based abilities and combinations all come from his Light Fruit, but that's okay.  His Light Fruit is one of the most powerful Devil Fruits in the series either way.



Not impossible but it still doesn't have much to support it. I think it just goes to show how versatile his Devil Fruit is in combat. 

With his powers, he can...

-Unleash powerful blasts of energy with a wide AoE
-Travel at the speed of light
-Avoid most damage via Logia dispersion 
-Shoot from a long range with a high level of accuracy similar to a sniper
-Drastically increase the force behind his kicks
-Create a sturdy sword of light

Quite a versatile tool I'd say.


----------



## Gohara (Jun 8, 2015)

At every turn Sabo has decisively bested Burgess so far, even prior to when he ate the Fire Fruit.  So I don't look too much into Sabo saying he'll have his hands full with him, especially before seeing a MangaHelpers translation and/or the official translation.

Well that would make it versatile either way.  Kizaru using his Light Sword can still be considered the same usage of power as if he's using his Light Kicks.  Neither means he's using more of his own power than the other.  They're just different ways they can be applied, which adds an element of versatility to his Devil Fruit abilities which is further expanded by the abilities you're listing.


----------



## trance (Jun 8, 2015)

Gohara said:


> At every turn Sabo has decisively bested Burgess so far, even prior to when he ate the Fire Fruit.  So I don't look too much into Sabo saying he'll have his hands full with him, especially before seeing a MangaHelpers translation and/or the official translation.





			
				cnet said:
			
		

> Sabo: Doflamingo is headed this way!! / It looks like I?ll have my hands full with Burgess...!!





> Well that would make it versatile either way.  Kizaru using his Light Sword can still be considered the same usage of power as if he's using his Light Kicks.  Neither means he's using more of his own power than the other.  They're just different ways they can be applied, which adds an element of versatility to his Devil Fruit abilities which is further expanded by the abilities you're listing.



It shows he is capable of handling many different types of scenarios and altering his fighting style as he sees fit but it doesn't support your assumption that he supplements any additional power behind his sword. So, unless you have something more to feed your argumentation, I won't be addressing this anymore. Speculating is fine but as I said, I want something more concrete.


----------



## Finalbeta (Jun 8, 2015)

Anyway, did you guys noticed that Zoro was able to get free from Fuji ' s gravity and push him back?

Not even Doflamingo could push Fujitora back, I'm not Sure Sabo did it, I'll need to re watch the manga 

IMO Zoro is a very versatile fighter, he uses his strenght on the battle contest like Mihawk, who was half asleep in his fight with Vista


----------



## Gohara (Jun 9, 2015)

@ Trance.

Fair enough, but Sabo decisively besting Burgess is still more telling than saying he'll have his hands full with him.  It's not like I think Sabo would easily defeat Burgess.  I just don't think he would have more than low to mid difficulty defeating him.

I'm not so much as assuming that such is the case, as I am saying such could be the case and that we don't really know.  Kizaru expresses that he really wants to capture the Straw Hat Pirates and even states that Rayleigh is holding him off, so I certainly don't think he was holding back.  I'm actually in the same boat in that I'm looking for something more concrete since the idea that Kizaru is only using his physical strength and that his Devil Fruit abilities aren't really playing a part is being used as evidence.


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (Jun 9, 2015)

In an arc where Luffy is beating Doflamingo, it wouldn't be unreasonable to believe that Zoro can beat Fujitora if he goes all out


----------



## Finalbeta (Jun 10, 2015)

Well, Fujitora should be leagues over Doflamingo since not even Sabo could lay a hand on him, but if Zoro is already as strong as G4 Luffy and didn't show it yet, if we give him 2-3 arcs he may reach admiral level or even his master


----------



## trance (Jun 11, 2015)

Gohara said:


> @ Trance.
> 
> Fair enough, but Sabo decisively besting Burgess is still more telling than saying he'll have his hands full with him.  It's not like I think Sabo would easily defeat Burgess.  I just don't think he would have more than low to mid difficulty defeating him.



Sabo is aware of how strong he is but is also aware of just how dangerous a threat Burgess is. To say Burgess is enough to keep even him occupied means Burgess is powerful even compared to Sabo himself.



> I'm not so much as assuming that such is the case, as I am saying such could be the case and that we don't really know.  Kizaru expresses that he really wants to capture the Straw Hat Pirates and even states that Rayleigh is holding him off, so I certainly don't think he was holding back.  I'm actually in the same boat in that I'm looking for something more concrete since the idea that Kizaru is only using his physical strength and that his Devil Fruit abilities aren't really playing a part is being used as evidence.



But that would require a comparable counterargument for it. From what we saw, Kizaru was matching Rayleigh with a light sword. Granted, nothing suggests he was using anything less than the 100% output of his physical strength but the aforementioned statement has yet to be countered by any other explanation more simplistic, plausible and generally well-accepted. Yes, there's a _possibility_ he could've further imbued the physical force he was exerting behind the sword with his powers but that would require you to logically explain those two moves - light kicks and light sword - are built around the same rudimentary principle, which may or may not be so easy to prove and get as good of a solid argument as the one I'm supporting. 

So, I guess it comes down to how much of a risk you're willing to take to properly demonstrate so. That's not saying it's your goal with this particular discussion (in fact, I think it's not the case at all) but just going off the assumption that you, in fact, were.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Jun 11, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> In an arc where Luffy is beating Doflamingo, it wouldn't be unreasonable to believe that Zoro can beat Fujitora if he goes all out



It is, as Luffy is barely able to defeat DD.

Fujitora>DD
Luffy>>Zoro


----------

