# War Arc Kakashi vs Tsunade



## Marvel (Mar 4, 2018)

Location:Sanin Deadlock
Distance:20m
Restrictions:Katsuyu
Knowledge:Anime


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## Mithos (Mar 4, 2018)

Restricting Katsuyu hurts Tsunade, but she still has _Creation Rebirth_.

Since Kakashi tends to attempt to finish off his opponents in close range with _Lightning Blade_ and its variants, I think Tsunade would win. Close range is not where Kakashi wants to be, as she's more skilled in close combat and can survive virtually anything he dishes out thanks to _Creation Rebirth_.

She counters his _Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole _with her Heruclean strength, like Sakura did, or evades his attack as he resurfaces, like she did against Kabuto. The rest of his Ninjutsu can be dealt with by evading, blocking with slabs of earth pulled up with her strength, or healed from. Her Heruclean strength can help deter clone feints, as the shock-wave would push Kakashi or his clone back. It could also stop Kakashi's approach with _Lightning Blade_ since he has to run at her to use it, and that leaves him susceptible to having the ground split beneath his feet. If he (or a clone) jumps at her that leaves him unable to dodge her Taijutsu.

His _Lightning Shadow Clones _could be a nuisance, but the electrical effect is unlikely to do much to her. She's moved and used Ninjutsu when severed in half without _Strength of One Hundred_: _Creation Rebirth_ active, as well as attacking right out of a lightning bolt. With it active, she's fought through a giant sword through her spine, and two swords skewering her abdomen. A suped-up taser is not creating a significant opening against her given her track record of fighting through grievous injuries that should have outright killed her at worst and paralyzed her at best. 

Kakashi's only chance is Kamui, but given his track record in the manga and his portrayal, even with it I don't think he can defeat a Sannin.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Kai (Mar 4, 2018)

Kamui GG? Kamui GG.

Reactions: Winner 3 | Informative 1


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## Marvel (Mar 4, 2018)

Mithos said:


> Since Kakashi tends to attempt to finish off his opponents in close range with _Lightning Blade_ and its variants,



Which I’d doubt he’d do against her considering he has knowledge and won’t go for it right away.

Anyways he has a good track record with Kamui like Kamuing the entire Gedou Mazi Head,A Senpo Rasengan kicked to him by Juudara and Kamui’d it While it was in contact with his body.

Kamuing Naruto Clone faster than Obito could  realize it and his statement of being able to Kamui away 5 Bjuiidama’s.

Also you make it seem like Kakashi will just drop dead after a failed attempt at using  a fatal blow to Tsunade.

He can attempt to use mangenkyou Sharingan genjutsu on par with Rinne Obito’s which Tsunade has no counter for And he can proceed to lob her head off with Raikiri and that’s assuming he just dosent camp it out and wait to her to run out of her Healing Jutsu And Kamui her whine she’s exhausted.

He also had Lightning Clones which can paralyze Tsunade which leaves an opening for Kamui or he can clone feint her and chop get in half with Raikiri Wire.

Take your pick.
He also has Sharingan Pre cog and Kage Bunshins to counter or avoid Tsunade’s close quarter attacks.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 4, 2018)

You didn't restrict Kamui...


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## FlamingRain (Mar 4, 2018)

Summoning a portion of Katsuyu too large to warp early on was Tsunade's only defense against Kamui, which I'm sure Kakashi would resort to before he ever risked himself getting hit.

So...Kakashi.

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## Architect (Mar 4, 2018)

In cqc she isn't landing a single punch on Kakashi if she ever comes close to him. Itachi, with the same stats as Kakashi's was dodging acrobat attacks before jumping back. She won't hit him, unless you believe the best attack sequence Tsunade is capable of should be superior to acrobat.
Okay. Now lemme just copypaste what I wrote about Sakura, but replace her name with Tsunade's and cut Hokage Kakashi part.

I don't see Tsunade even approaching Kakashi, since, besides her disadvantage in speed, she's gonna be repelled by the water wall and stuff. In worst cases paralyzed by electricity if Kakashi decides to pull something akin to what Darui did to Sasuke. If she manages to step close to him, she ends up paralyzed by Raiju Tsuiga.
Raikiri kunai - Minus Tsunade.
Lightning clone - Minus Tsunade.
Raiju Tsuiga - Minus Tsunade.
Water+whatever raiton technique - Minus Tsunade.
Raiden is probably not that easy to catch the opponent with, but that's still - Minus Tsunade.

Indeed, Kakashi won't even need all of that, because fight either end with Kamui GG or with a "first move certain victory" technique - Taiju Tsuiga.


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## Mithos (Mar 4, 2018)

Levi Ackerman said:


> Which I’d doubt he’d do against her considering he has knowledge and won’t go for it right away.



It's his signature fighting-style. He's likely to use it, as he always has.



> Anyways he has a good track record with Kamui like Kamuing the entire Gedou Mazi Head,A Senpo Rasengan kicked to him by Juudara and Kamui’d it While it was in contact with his body.
> 
> Kamuing Naruto Clone faster than Obito could  realize it and his statement of being able to Kamui away 5 Bjuiidama’s.



I'm not interested in his defensive/supplementary feats with Kamui. As I've explained in other threads, there has always - right from the start of Part II - been a big discrepancy in his offensive and defensive uses. It took him time to warp Deidara's arm, but then almost right after he warped an entire exploding clone at the last second. Even with Kamui, he admitted inferiority to [Wind Arc] Naruto. Even with Kamui, he was losing against Kakuzu. Even with it, he died against Pain, and was in awe that Jiraiya took on Six Paths.

I'm not a believer in Kamui, GG - it's glorified fanfiction.



> Also you make it seem like Kakashi will just drop dead after a failed attempt at using  a fatal blow to Tsunade.



If he hits her anywhere but directly to the head, she's going to retaliate while his hand is stuck and he's open. If he misses, he would still be open because of his bodily momentum (_Lightning Blade_ requires a lunging motion). Attempting and failing would be akin to dropping dead - because he will when she counter-attacks.



> He can attempt to use mangenkyou Sharingan genjutsu on par with Rinne Obito’s which Tsunade has no counter for And he can proceed to lob her head off with Raikiri and that’s assuming he just dosent camp it out and wait to her to run out of her Healing Jutsu And Kamui her whine she’s exhausted.



Obito has no worthy Genjutsu feats or hype in that area. And despite Kakashi's plethora of fights in the manga, he's never defeated any of the Kage-level opponents he's been up against with Sharingan Genjutsu. Tsunade also fought Madara and his Susano'o clones without succumbing to Sharingan Genjutsu, which Madara showed he was more than willing to use if the chance presented itself when he exploited a split second opening against A.

Kakashi's Genjutsu is not likely to be a major factor in this fight.



> He also had Lightning Clones which can paralyze Tsunade which leaves an opening for Kamui or he can clone feint her and chop get in half with Raikiri Wire.



I already explained why _Lightning Shadow Clones_ would be ineffective.

_Lightning Blade Wire_ requires him to run at her in a straight line, leaving him susceptible to her smashing the ground and a) disrupting his footing and forcing him to abandon the attempt, or b) knocking him back with the shock-wave and debris.

In fact, I already addressed these two points in my original post.



> He also has Sharingan Pre cog and Kage Bunshins to counter or avoid Tsunade’s close quarter attacks.



I've already addressed _Shadow Clones_. But I will add that those are extremely taxing on his stamina and not something he can rely on forever. Further, he can't _really _avoid close combat if he's approaching to land attacks like _Lightning Blade_ or _Lightning Blade Wire_.

Even with his Sharingan, he was on the defensive against Hidan, and was losing in close combat to Kakuzu. He was also knocked back by the Edo Jinchuriki's tails when he attacked them. He's not impossible to hit by any means.

Tsunade landed a blow on Madara himself after the Gokage cornered him. She caught him off-guard with her feint and would have hit him had he not had Susano'o active to block. She was fending off and smashing around his Susano'o clones. She was intercepting and deflecting his Ninjutsu with her Taijutsu.

She hit Orochimaru twice. She hit Kabuto twice. She pinned down Manda.

She's going to hit Kakashi.

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## Maverick04 (Mar 4, 2018)

Kakashi is gonna snipe her head off with Kamui..He's just that damn versatile..I'm pretty sure Kakashi can hold his own against Tsunade in Taijutsu and with his ability to feint opponents who are a heck of a lot stronger than Tsunade herself like Itachi and Tendo, he can definitely land some fatal blows before Tsunade resorts to sozo Saisei..And Kamui is a sure shot victory for Kakashi..The only problem for Kakashi here is his chakra level


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## Tri (Mar 5, 2018)

Kakashi can contend with Tsunade in close quarters but he has nothing in his arsenal to put her down bar Kamui so it boils down to whether or not he resorts to Kamui before Tsunade tags him and given his knowledge on Tsunade I'd say he resorts to it sooner rather than later and takes the win.


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## Marvel (Mar 5, 2018)

Mithos said:


> It's his signature fighting-style. He's likely to use it, as he always has.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don’t mean to burst you bubble but...using feats of previous variants of Kakashi is meaningless considering War Arc Kakashi Heavily outclasses his previous self by a huge margin.

Also I don’t recall him using his MS against Kakazu so you can’t say he still had Kamui and lost.

Secondly I’d love to hear arguments for Wind Arc Naruto besting WAR ARC Kakashi.

Also Madara wasn’t caught off guard he was more shocked she survived the attack and smashing around susanoo Clones is cool and all but they didn’t seem very fast and were a big target and Tsunades raw strength is something we already know of.

Hit Kabuto who’s get blitzed by Kakashi,Hit an armless Trolling Orochimaru And Hitring a Huge  Snake isn’t impressive.

Also intercepting ninjutsu is jut a big deal so deal since they have no notable speed feats.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 5, 2018)

As others have said, he needs Kamui to kill her. There’s a chance that he wouldn’t resort to that straight away and could get hit before Kamui came out.  But given that he has knowledge on her already, he knows not to try and engage her in close combat. 

So I think Kakashi bags it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bonly (Mar 5, 2018)

For Kakashi it’s Kamui or bust as nothing else is likely to put her down for good and since Tsunade has to get close to Kakashi to finish him off, he has a good shot at getting it off.

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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 5, 2018)

Levi Ackerman said:


> I don’t mean to burst you bubble but...using feats of previous variants of Kakashi is meaningless considering War Arc Kakashi Heavily outclasses his previous self by a huge margin.



Which in itself doesn’t really make sense because there was at most a few weeks between the Pain Invasion and the War. Yet his prowess seemed to dramatically improve.



> Also I don’t recall him using his MS against Kakazu so you can’t say he still had Kamui and lost.



The point is that he went through the entire battle without using it, and only brought it out as a last resort when he was about to die.



> Also Madara wasn’t caught off guard he was more shocked she survived the attack



Being surprised that she survived the attack and getting his Susano’o sword smashed in two = caught off guard.



> and smashing around susanoo Clones is cool and all but they didn’t seem very fast and were a big target and Tsunades raw strength is something we already know of.



They were fast enough to catch V1 A when he was momentarily distracted. Considering Sasuke wasn’t even able to achieve this, I’d say that makes them pretty fast.



> Hit Kabuto who’s get blitzed by Kakashi,Hit an armless Trolling Orochimaru And Hitring a Huge  Snake isn’t impressive.



Proof that Orochimaru’s lack of arms made him slower.

Tsunade intercepted Manda before he could snap his mouth shut, and she wasn’t anywhere near him when he burst out from beneath the ground. Dunno why you’re shrugging that feat off as unimpressive.



> Also intercepting ninjutsu is jut a big deal so deal since they have no notable speed feats.



She deflected those fireballs before any of the other Gokage could react.

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## Santoryu (Mar 5, 2018)

kamui gg
raikiri gg

unrestrict tsunade and she still loses. kakashi is too strong for a mere sannin

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## wooly Eullerex (Mar 5, 2018)

double clone feint, gg

a raw kamui attempt would just get him closed down & killed

she wins w/ katsuyu


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## Marvel (Mar 5, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Which in itself doesn’t really make sense because there was at most a few weeks between the Pain Invasion and the War. Yet his prowess seemed to dramatically improve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol dosent matter if it dosent make sense Kakashi still improved.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Marvel (Mar 5, 2018)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> double clone feint, gg
> 
> a raw kamui attempt would just get him closed down & killed
> 
> she wins w/ katsuyu


Katsuyu is restricted


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## NamesClassified (Mar 5, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Which in itself doesn’t really make sense because there was at most a few weeks between the Pain Invasion and the War. Yet his prowess seemed to dramatically improve.


This series is full of ridiculous powerups. Kakashi's boost are crazy, but still tame in comparison to others in the manga. I mean only his Chakra reserves and Kamui proficiency was upped IMO.





Godaime Tsunade said:


> The point is that he went through the entire battle without using it, and only brought it out as a last resort when he was about to die.



Why use a technique that leaves him bedridden for a week as anything but a last resort?




Godaime Tsunade said:


> Proof that Orochimaru’s lack of arms made him slower.


No manga panel outright stated it. I'd argue the fact that he was in excruciating pain, to the point that kabuto had to assist him moving in their hiedout should make it clear that his mobility would have taken a toll.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Gohara (Mar 5, 2018)

Kakashi's character wins in my opinion.


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## Blu-ray (Mar 5, 2018)

Tsunade's only possible recourse to Kamui was Katsuyu given that it's too large to warp in it's entirety, sniping fragments won't kill it, and it can cut off Kakashi's direct line of sight with Tsunade. You restricted it so there's no chance of him losing.

She's never putting hands on him by taking the direct approach, he knows about her healing so he won't fall for her playing possum, she's too one-dimensional to take him off gaurd otherwise, and above all else her one answer to Kamui is restricted.



Mithos said:


> Kakashi's only chance is Kamui, but given his track record in the manga and his portrayal, even with it I don't think he can defeat a Sannin.


War arc Kakashi's track record with Kamui is 100% accuracy, nigh instantaneous speed that could take even Obito off-gaurd, liberal use, and no visible fatigue or dulled movement despite it, and his portrayal is fighting stronger people than Tsunade and more than holding his own.

So even if you wanna go by track record she still gets her head ripped off. The fact that you went in depth as to how she handled the rest of Kakashi's arsenal only to leave Kamui as a footnote and not even bother with an argument other than "_it won't beat her just because"_ is pretty much proof that you don't see how she counters it either.

Reactions: Agree 6 | Winner 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 5, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> This series is full of ridiculous powerups. Kakashi's boost are crazy, but still tame in comparison to others in the manga. I mean only his Chakra reserves and Kamui proficiency was upped IMO.
> 
> Why use a technique that leaves him bedridden for a week as anything but a last resort?
> 
> ...



Yeah, but then Kabuto gave him his medicine and the pain mostly resided. The only thing I think his illness affected during that match was his stamina, which is why he exhausted himself regenerating from one of Tsunade’s punches. But his speed wasn’t visibly affected.


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## wooly Eullerex (Mar 5, 2018)

Levi Ackerman said:


> Katsuyu is restricted





> *double clone feint, gg*
> 
> a raw kamui attempt would just get him closed down & killed
> 
> she wins w/ katsuyu


**


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 5, 2018)

I find it quite interesting that everyone is arguing Kakashi with knowledge is more inclined to use Kamui against Tsunade sooner than later but he never does that against stronger opponents like Itachi, SM Jiraiya, and Orochimaru and instead waits until the very end when it somehow can't be used anymore.

Is this a conspiracy against Tsunade or Kamui and knowledge underestimation?

Reactions: Informative 2


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## FlamingRain (Mar 5, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> I find it quite interesting that everyone is arguing Kakashi with knowledge is more inclined to use Kamui against Tsunade sooner than later but he never does that against stronger opponents like Itachi, SM Jiraiya, and Orochimaru and instead waits until the very end when it somehow can't be used anymore.
> 
> Is this a conspiracy against Tsunade or Kamui and knowledge underestimation?



It's both.

Kind of. Probably...

The one thing Tsunade had that would protect her from Kamui (if it came out in time) was banned. Last few times I remember Kakashi being pitted against those other three they didn't have their answers to Kamui banned. That and people forget how soon he resorted to Kamui during the Kage Summit Arc. If he feels like he's otherwise outmatched he'll use it at least relatively soon.

Are the people you're referring to actually the same people, though?


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 5, 2018)

Regardless of the notorious Kamui GG Kakashi loses. He has nothing to really put Tsunade down also what is stopping her from avoiding a fatal damage from it it's not like it can't be dodged considering deidara avoided a direct hit. Also unlike deidara Tsunade can regrow limbs so she wouldn't be hindered so much. Anyways I think she takes this fight.

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## Santoryu (Mar 5, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Regardless of the notorious Kamui GG Kakashi loses. He has nothing to really put Tsunade down also what is stopping her from avoiding a fatal damage from it it's not like it can't be dodged considering deidara avoided a direct hit. Also unlike deidara Tsunade can regrow limbs so she wouldn't be hindered so much. Anyways I think she takes this fight.



please stop defiling grand master chiyo!!!!!!


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## Shazam (Mar 5, 2018)

Kakashi's Kamui feats give him the victory here. 

Also his raiton cable (and attacking the heart or brain) could dissect limbs from Tsunade. He doesn't need to try an overcome her durability to win.


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 5, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> please stop defiling grand master chiyo!!!!!!


Wha!!!? I think she is smexy. She deserves recognition for such beauty!!!

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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 5, 2018)

Gonna side with Tsunade as usual, Kakashi has nothing that can put her down bar Kamui and he only uses that as a last resort and offensively he never used it to kill other Kage levels when he had the chance to. So as far as I'm concerned he can't, not unless he was given enough time to charge up a really strong one: Which is time that he doesn't have.

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## Blu-ray (Mar 5, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> He has nothing to really put Tsunade down


She can't regenerate her head, so ripping it off with Kamui puts her down. Even if we want to assume she can regrow her head/regrow her entire body from the neck down, then he simply sends her entire body to boxland.



SakuraLover16 said:


> also what is stopping her from avoiding a fatal damage from it it's not like it can't be dodged considering deidara avoided a direct hit.


Deidara _didn't_ avoid it. Kakashi _missed_. This also isn't beginning of Shippuden Kakashi who can't aim or control the barrier's shape, but War Arc Kakashi who has mastered it completely and _*won't*_ be missing.

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## narut0ninjafan (Mar 5, 2018)

Kakashi's impressive offensive Kamui feats in the war arc were mostly done while others were fighting the opponent, giving him an opening to pull off a snipe. In a 1 on 1 fight I'm not convinced he can pull off a Kamui GG while having to avoid attacks coming at him

It could go either way but I'd go with Tsunade more times than not

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## Blu-ray (Mar 5, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> he only uses that as a last resort



This aside, it doesn't matter if he uses it sooner or later. When it does come out (notice that I didn't say _if) _there's simply nothing she can do about it.



Isaiah13000 said:


> he never used it to kill other Kage levels when he had the chance to.


Again...

So he has never ruled out using it to kill Kage levels. If you mean that he _can't_, rather than won't, then Tsunade's punches are in the same category since they've also never killed a Kage level.


narut0ninjafan said:


> impressive offensive Kamui feats in the war arc were mostly done while others were fighting the opponent, giving him an opening to pull off a snipe. In a 1 on 1 fight I'm not convinced he can



Pain's nail launched with Shinra Tensei
Pain's missile before it could hit it's target
Sasuke's arrows before it could skewer him
Obito's stake before he could react
Minato's arm launched by a Juubi Jinchuriki
The Gedo Mazo's arm before it could teleport
Were not warped with the support of others, diversions they made, or distractions resulting from their presence.

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## Shazam (Mar 5, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Gonna side with Tsunade as usual, Kakashi has nothing that can put her down bar Kamui and he *only uses that as a last resort* and offensively he never used it to kill other Kage levels when he had the chance to. So as far as *I'm concerned he can't*, not unless he was given enough time to charge up a really strong one: Which is time that he doesn't have.



The bolded is why you got the rating you did on this post. Complete and utter garbage of assumptions.

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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 5, 2018)

Kakashi probably wins. 

With anime knowledge, Kakashi knows about Tsunade’s survability and won’t be caught off guard like he was by Kakazu. He also knows not to fight her in Taijutsu, and that virtually everything in his arsenal will fail to put her down.

Tsunade can’t use Katsuyu, which would make Kamui use more difficult, and also increase Tsunade’s ability to overwhelm him. 

Kakashi is faster than her and has Sharingan reflexes, with knowledge he will use this to stay away. Tsunade might have some long range Jutsu we haven’t seen, but Kakashi has the full elemental wheel by the War Arc in addition to Sharingan precog, so he should be able to handle it.

Kakashi eventually Bunshin Feints her while the real Kakashi sends her to box land.


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## Bonly (Mar 5, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> Pain's nail launched with Shinra Tensei
> Pain's missile before it could hit it's target
> Sasuke's arrows before it could skewer him
> Obito's stake before he could react
> ...



Fun fact he said offensive Kamui feats and Kakashi using Kamui to save himself from an Arrow or nail isn't offensive usage, it's defensive so half the list doesn't count though I'm not sure when Kakashi used Kamui on a staked used by Obito. And even then he said mostly so even if you did mention two or three things his point still would stand as the few wouldn't outweigh the many which is his point.


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## Shazam (Mar 5, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Fun fact he said offensive Kamui feats and Kakashi using Kamui to save himself from an Arrow or nail isn't offensive usage, it's defensive so half the list doesn't count though I'm not sure when Kakashi used Kamui on a staked used by Obito. And even then he said mostly so even if you did mention two or three things his point still would stand as the few wouldn't outweigh the many which is his point.



The most retarded thing ive seen in BD is the assumption that given Kakashi's immense accuracy and speed with Kamui warping, that for some crazy reason he isn't able to kill someone with it. Even though in the early stages of revealing the Kamui he managed to take a mid-kage level's arm out.

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## Blu-ray (Mar 5, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Fun fact he said offensive Kamui feats and Kakashi using Kamui to save himself from an Arrow or nail isn't offensive usage, it's defensive so half the list doesn't count though I'm not sure when Kakashi used Kamui on a staked used by Obito. And even then he said mostly so even if you did mention two or three things his point still would stand as the few wouldn't outweigh the many which is his point.


Fair enough. Though I honestly don't see what difference there is between Kamui used offensively and used defensively/supplementary since the feats still speak for themselves.

For instance, if he can warp Sasuke's arrow flying towards him, then he should by all means be capable of doing the same to a person leaping at him to punch him provided they aren't faster than the arrow.

Plus it's not like WA Kakashi used _any_ offensive Kamui by this standard, since the only time he needed it was against someone immune.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 5, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> This aside, it doesn't matter if he uses it sooner or later. When it does come out (notice that I didn't say _if) _there's simply nothing she can do about it.


That was only one time, every other time he only uses it as a last resort. 


> Again...
> 
> So he has never ruled out using it to kill Kage levels. If you mean that he _can't_, rather than won't, then Tsunade's punches are in the same category since they've also never killed a Kage level.


No they aren't. Kakashi has had many chances to use Kamui to kill someone but didn't bother to do it and instead almost died and literally died because he did not use it. If Kakashi could've used Kamui, even as a last resort, to one-shot his opponent and secure his victory he would've done so.


jnikools said:


> The bolded is why you got the rating you did on this post. Complete and utter garbage of assumptions.


Honestly, I could care less about the rating you gave me. As far as I'm concerned you're blatantly ignoring how strong Kakashi is portrayed in the series by saying he can casually one-shot other Kage levels.

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## Bonly (Mar 5, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> Fair enough. Though I honestly don't see what difference there is between Kamui used offensively and used defensively/supplementary since the feats still speak for themselves.



Using it defensively would be easier to do as all he needs to do is open up a portal in front of himself or a few feat infront of himself at most and even then most things thrown at him is pretty linear making it easy as oppose to having to focus on a person while their running and using jutsu and what not. At least imo using it defensively/supplementary would be easier.



> For instance, if he can warp Sasuke's arrow flying towards him, then he should by all means be capable of doing the same to a person leaping at him to punch him provided they aren't faster than the arrow.



I agree, he shouldn't have to many problems tagging her with Kamui once she gets into CQC range.



> Plus it's not like WA Kakashi used _any_ offensive Kamui by this standard, since the only time he needed it was against someone immune.



I think that further supports the idea of Kakashi using Kamui offensively isn't something he's likely to do early on in most fights as opposed to using it like a trump card and using it more so late into a fight


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## Shazam (Mar 5, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That was only one time, every other time he only uses it as a last resort.
> No they aren't. Kakashi has had many chances to use Kamui to kill someone but didn't bother to do it and instead almost died and literally died because he did not use it. If Kakashi could've used Kamui, even as a last resort, to one-shot his opponent and secure his victory he would've done so.
> Honestly, I could care less about the rating you gave me. As far as I'm concerned you're blatantly ignoring how strong Kakashi is portrayed in the series by saying he can casually one-shot other Kage levels.



Lol Wow

So you are arguing for Tsunade because her portrayal (in your opinion) is higher than his.

Not that its about match up styles to you
Not that Tsunade has a reasonable chance of dealing with Kamui
Only because of Portrayal 
In that case no sane person should bother debating about this with you. Because your mind is set on nothing else other than portayal. 


Given Kakashi's activation speed & accuracy of Kamui compared with Tsunades fighting methods and speed feats, its clear this is pretty much a Kamui GG
Dont like the above statement ? Then debate why that is not true...Oh, wait you tried. By saying..


Kakashi won't use Kamui before he dies LOL
Kakashi can't kill someone with Kamui LOLOLOLOL

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Shazam (Mar 5, 2018)

The argument that Offensive and Defensive Kamui usage is so much different to the point where Kakashi isn't able to kill someone with it is ridiculous.

That is like saying a skilled gunman who can shot bullets out of the air in mid-flight wouldn't be able to shot a person running around. That is essentially what has been argued here.

To me its a desperate shot at trying to avoid the obvious Kamui GG

Reactions: Winner 3


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## NamesClassified (Mar 5, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Regardless of the notorious Kamui GG Kakashi loses. He has nothing to really put Tsunade down also what is stopping her from avoiding a fatal damage from it it's not like it can't be dodged considering deidara avoided a direct hit. Also unlike deidara Tsunade can regrow limbs so she wouldn't be hindered so much. Anyways I think she takes this fight.


War Arc Kamui>>>>>>Kazekage Rescue Arc Kamui. Using a weaker incarnation of Kakashi to justify Kamui ineffectiveness on Tsunade is incredibly unfair. People must be forgetting some of my boys War arc feats.


Kamui should definitely be able to catch Tsunade.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Blu-ray (Mar 5, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That was only one time, every other time he only uses it as a last resort.


Did you not read the entire Obito fight? Kamui was about as much as a last resort as Raikiri.



Isaiah13000 said:


> No they aren't. Kakashi has had many chances to use Kamui to kill someone but didn't bother to do it and instead almost died and literally died because he did not use it. If Kakashi could've used Kamui, even as a last resort, to one-shot his opponent and secure his victory he would've done so.


I literally just posted a scan of him doing what you say he never would _*twice*_. What more can I even say?



Bonly said:


> Using it defensively would be easier to do as all he needs to do is open up a portal in front of himself or a few feat infront of himself at most and even then most things thrown at him is pretty linear making it easy as oppose to having to focus on a person while their running and using jutsu and what not. At least imo using it defensively/supplementary would be easier.


Kamui doesn't work like Minato's S/T barrier though. It sucks things in like a vacuum, it doesn't let them pass through like a door. If it worked this way he'd have warped Madara's Godudama by simply making a portal in front of himself, and Asura Path's missile, Naruto's Rasengan, the Gedo Mazo's arm, and his lightning infused Kunai (all things that weren't linear attacks flying toward him) would not have been warped with the same difficulty.



Bonly said:


> I agree, he shouldn't have to many problems tagging her with Kamui once she gets into CQC range.


I don't think he'd have trouble tagging here with regardless of the range. As long as he has a clear line of sight.


Bonly said:


> I think that further supports the idea of Kakashi using Kamui offensively isn't something he's likely to do early on in most fights as opposed to using it like a trump card and using it more so late into a fight


It's not even a matter of him using it early on in a fight. People make it seem like he won't use it offensively _at all._

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 5, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Gonna side with Tsunade as usual, Kakashi has nothing that can put her down bar Kamui and he only uses that as a last resort and offensively he never used it to kill other Kage levels when he had the chance to. So as far as I'm concerned he can't, *not unless he was given enough time to charge up a really strong one*: Which is time that he doesn't have.



Tsunade's punches offensively never killed anyone notable or Kage Levels so they are not working here either.

Btw Kamui doesn't work by "charging up a really strong one".

There is no strong Kamuis and weak Kamui's. There is just different sized Kamuis and the really big ones, are the ones that need charging up.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Mar 5, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> Kamui doesn't work like Minato's S/T barrier though. It sucks things in like a vacuum, it doesn't let them pass through like a door. If it worked this way he'd have warped Madara's Godudama by simply making a portal in front of himself, and Asura Path's missile, Naruto's Rasengan, the Gedo Mazo's arm, and his lightning infused Kunai (all things that weren't linear attacks flying toward him) would not have been warped with the same difficulty.



But it does, whatever is inside the barrier gets sucked up, it's just a case of the speed at which things get warped away.  



> I don't think he'd have trouble tagging here with regardless of the range. As long as he has a clear line of sight.



Which is something he doesn't have at mid to long range so yeah lol



> It's not even a matter of him using it early on in a fight. People make it seem like he won't use it offensively _at all._



Depending on how a fight plays out, Kakashi could end up dying before he goes to use Kamui although that goes for alot of characters with their jutsu so it's not something exclusive to Kakashi


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## Shazam (Mar 5, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Which is something he doesn't have at mid to long range so yeah lol



20 meters is not long range..

real life humans can cross that distance in a couple seconds.

And if the argument now has came down to "Kakashi might die before Kamui"...I think its safe to say that Kakashi is the winner of this debate. There's always a "what if" scenario, but its about what is more likely to happen

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 5, 2018)

jnikools said:


> 20 meters is not long range..
> 
> real life humans can cross that distance in a couple seconds.
> 
> And if the argument now has came down to "Kakashi might die before Kamui"...I think its safe to say that Kakashi is the winner of this debate. There's always a "what if" scenario, but its about what is more likely to happen



I think Bonly's argument is that WA Kakashi has the same eyesight that he had at the end of the arc, where he couldn't aim that far.

Something I heavily disagree on because we don't normally consider characters like FKS Sasuke to be blind just because he used up all his eyesight and was practically blind by the end of the arc. We use a fresh version of the character in said arc and sharingan blindness is basically a self inflicted injury.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## narut0ninjafan (Mar 5, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> Pain's nail launched with Shinra Tensei
> Pain's missile before it could hit it's target
> Sasuke's arrows before it could skewer him
> Obito's stake before he could react
> ...



These are all defensive feats though, apart from Gedo Mazo's arm, but he wasn't under direct attack there

In a 1 on 1 fight he will be under direct attack constantly, which will probably make Kamui sniping a lot harder in my opinion

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 5, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> War Arc Kamui>>>>>>Kazekage Rescue Arc Kamui. Using a weaker incarnation of Kakashi to justify Kamui ineffectiveness on Tsunade is incredibly unfair. People must be forgetting some of my boys War arc feats.
> 
> 
> Kamui should definitely be able to catch Tsunade.


One of the feats you provided were not Kakashi's and was used defensively. Another feat you provided was used defensively. The other feat you provided Kamui was used on something big the gedo statue. Finally the other feat you provided put a hole in Madara's defense and did not wound him just opened him up. As long as Tsunade isn't beheaded he can't kill her and it has never been shown to kill anyone. Of course the same case could be made for Tsunade but then again she landed fatal blows on an edo tensei who then proceeded to regenerate and was able to keep up with a lightened Ei. Not to mention she can obscure her location with the rubble kicks and punches up.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 5, 2018)

jnikools said:


> Lol Wow
> 
> So you are arguing for Tsunade because her portrayal (in your opinion) is higher than his.


 I don't think he can casually one-shot any Kage level period. Regardless of whether they are portrayed above him or not.


> Not that its about match up styles to you
> Not that Tsunade has a reasonable chance of dealing with Kamui
> Only because of Portrayal
> In that case no sane person should bother debating about this with you. Because your mind is set on nothing else other than portayal.


 Hype and feats both make up a character's portrayal, and Kakashi's portrayal does not put him at a level in which he can just look at another Kage level and kill them instantly. He has been portrayed as the underdog in every single fight he has had against another Kage level in all of Part 2. No amount of denial is going to change that.


> Given Kakashi's activation speed & accuracy of Kamui compared with Tsunades fighting methods and speed feats, its clear this is pretty much a Kamui GG
> Dont like the above statement ? Then debate why that is not true...Oh, wait you tried. By saying..
> 
> 
> ...


You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. He can use it to kill people, but only if he is given enough time to charge up a really strong one. That is time he won't have in the midst of heated battle, that's why I believe he will lose here.


Blu-ray said:


> Did you not read the entire Obito fight? Kamui was about as much as a last resort as Raikiri.


He could only get away with that because he wasn't being attacked.





> I literally just posted a scan of him doing what you say he never would _*twice*_. What more can I even say?


He wasn't being attacked when that happened.


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Tsunade's punches offensively never killed anyone notable or Kage Levels so they are not working here either.


 Not the same at all and you know it. Tsunade has been portrayed as capable of killing other Kage levels with a punch or kick if she gets it to land. Kakashi hasn't been portrayed as capable of killing other Kage levels with Kamui casually. Only under specific circumstances can he do something like that.


> Btw Kamui doesn't work by "charging up a really strong one".
> 
> There is no strong Kamuis and weak Kamui's. There is just different sized Kamuis and the really big ones, are the ones that need charging up.


That's what I meant, he's gonna have to charge up a really big one so in order to take Tsunade down. But she won't give him the time needed to do that is the problem.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## Bonly (Mar 5, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> I think Bonly's argument is that WA Kakashi has the same eyesight that he had at the end of the arc, where he couldn't aim that far.
> 
> Something I heavily disagree on because we don't normally consider characters like FKS Sasuke to be blind just because he used up all his eyesight and was practically blind by the end of the arc. We use a fresh version of the character in said arc and sharingan blindness is basically a self inflicted injury.



To be fair I take all characters that way, it's the OP job to pick a version of a character and if they aren't specific and if the arc they are from happens to last over 150 characters then I always go to how they were at the end of an arc. You guys can reset characters to be perfectly healthy and what not but not me since it's not part of the rules.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Serene Grace (Mar 5, 2018)

FKS Kakashi= War arc Kakashi

Iirc FKS took place days before the war. The only thing that is really different is stamina, and that is by virture of power inflation.(See Hiruzen's massive increase in stamina in the war compared to part 1)

Anything else is fan fiction that's supported by absolutely nothing.

OT: It can go either way, but I lean toward Kakashi, as no katsuyu means no wall for Kamui.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Tsunade's punches offensively never killed anyone notable or Kage Levels so they are not working here either.


Actually she did. She put a hole through Madara-fucking Uchiha's chest, he would have died had that been the real madara and he was alive

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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 5, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Not the same at all and you know it.



How so? I clearly don't know it so I would appreciate an explanation?



> Tsunade has been portrayed as capable of killing other Kage levels with a punch or kick if she gets it to land. Kakashi hasn't been portrayed as capable of killing other Kage levels with Kamui casually. Only under specific circumstances can he do something like that.



Kakashi portrayed himself capable of taking out "Uchiha Madara" with it right off the bat so I disagree.

So what are those specific circumstances for him to warp off the bat? being completely outmatched and him knowing that's the case?

You seem to think Tsunade completely heals from anything he throws at her, and with knowledge Kakashi would know that, so why wouldn't he?

Just for the record, I don't think he needs it to beat her or would resort to it right away.



> That's what I meant, he's gonna have to charge up a really big one so in order to take Tsunade down. But she won't give him the time needed to do that is the problem.



Why? he charged it up in now time for Sasuke's arrows which are 3x Tsunade sized in no time and he didn't need any long times for Warping Naruto either.

It's Tsunade the size of a boss summon? or if he wanted to warp her head and torso off, can she heal and regenerate from that?


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## The_Conqueror (Mar 5, 2018)

Even obito with sharingan couldnot perceive the speed of the kamui and the man himself could have taken out jubbi so yeah kamui GG

Reactions: Winner 1


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## NamesClassified (Mar 5, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> One of the feats you provided were not Kakashi's and was used defensively.


What feat did I provide that wasn't Kakashi's? Please explain yourself.


SakuraLover16 said:


> Another feat you provided was used defensively.


You didn't specify what feat. If your referring to the Minato Rasengan warp it proves that Kamui can warp high speed objects at close range instantly.


SakuraLover16 said:


> Finally the other feat you provided put a hole in Madara's defense and did not wound him just opened him up.


My point was to showcase the sheer speed in Kakashi's Kamui usage. Directly after being *instantaneously teleported with Flying Rajin *he was able to warp Madara's Truth Seeking Orbs the second before *8 Gates Guy *could attack Madara. This feat is insanely noteworthy.


SakuraLover16 said:


> The other feat you provided Kamui was used on something big the gedo statue.


Fair enough since Tsunade ain't a giant.


SakuraLover16 said:


> As long as Tsunade isn't beheaded he can't kill her and it has never been shown to kill anyone. Of course the same case could be made for Tsunade


I'm not following peoples obsession with the logic of "Kamui has no kills so Tsunade immune". He's already proven to be capable of intercepting attacks from far faster people then Tsunade during the war, so I see no discernible reason why he can't either warp her whole body or snipe her head off.


SakuraLover16 said:


> Not to mention she can obscure her location with the rubble kicks and punches up.


Rubble smoke isn't going to hide Tsunade from a Sharingan.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 5, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Actually she did. She put a hole through Madara-fucking Uchiha's chest, he would have died *had he not been an Edo*



Unfortunately Madara didn't die, and since we are ignoring the *circumstances* of why Kamui failed against opponents like the Mazo, Obito and Deidara, then it's only fair to do the same to Tsunade and focus on the fact that her punch didn't kill him while ignoring that he was an edo. Just like we ignore that Deidara was saved due to Kakashi's noobiness and inaccuracy with Kamui.

Sorry but I'm just *borrowing* the argument being used against Kamui here.

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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 5, 2018)

Bonly said:


> To be fair I take all characters that way, it's the OP job to pick a version of a character and if they aren't specific and if the arc they are from happens to last over 150 characters then I always go to how they were at the end of an arc. You guys can reset characters to be perfectly healthy and what not but not me since it's not part of the rules.



Oh yeah, I fully understand. We already discussed this and I know I ain't changing your mind about this. 

Personally the length of the chapters isn't as important  so much as the actual length of the arc, which was a couple of days. In Kakashi's case all his Kamui specially his good ones feats came from a single battle which lasted like 3-5 hours? Not much imo which is why I liken it to the FKS Sasuke case.

If I had seen any significant feats improving his attacks or Kamui even after decreased eyesight then I would be on your side that beginning/mid arc and end of arc Kakashi are different enough to classify them differently.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 5, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> How so? I clearly don't know it so I would appreciate an explanation?


 


> Kakashi portrayed himself capable of taking out "Uchiha Madara" with it right off the bat so I disagree.


 When he wasn't being attacked by anyone.


> So what are those specific circumstances for him to warp off the bat? being completely outmatched and him knowing that's the case?


He can't just warp someone off the bat is my point, he needs them to be immobilized or given enough time to charge up a big Kamui in order to kill someone with it.


> You seem to think Tsunade completely heals from anything he throws at her, and with knowledge Kakashi would know that, so why wouldn't he?


 The knowledge is "Anime" and as far as I know Kakashi doesn't know anymore about Tsunade's Creation Rebirth in the anime than he does in the manga. So that knowledge isn't going to help him here at all.


> Just for the record, I don't think he needs it to beat her or would resort to it right away.


 Alright, I pretty much figured that.


> Why? he charged it up in now time for Sasuke's arrows which are 3x Tsunade sized in no time and he didn't need any long times for Warping Naruto either.


That was a defensive feat, and with Naruto it was a supplementary feat and Kakashi wasn't under fire. Kamui's effectiveness is not consistent, when it comes to using it for defensive or supplementary purposes Kishi has no problem letting Kakashi instantly warp shit. But when it comes time to use it offensively, Kakashi either:
1. Uses it when he isn't under attack.
2. Uses it when he was given enough time to charge up a big one.
3. Uses it when he's empowered by Kurama's chakra. 
At no point has Kakashi attempted to warp someone in the midst of a heated battle. Instead, he relied on the rest of his arsenal and tactics.That should tell you that he cannot do that.


> It's Tsunade the size of a boss summon? or if he wanted to warp her head and torso off, can she heal and regenerate from that?


Probably not considering Hashirama's superior regeneration cannot regrow limbs.

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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 5, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> What feat did I provide that wasn't Kakashi's? Please explain yourself.
> 
> You didn't specify what feat. If your referring to the Minato Rasengan warp it provides that Kamui can warp high speed objects at close range instantly.
> 
> ...


The one where obito used Kamui on Naruto's rasengan. I understand what you are saying about the Kamui logic but at the same point Tsunade isn't slow which I know you are aware of and also she is a human which makes her movements a lot less predictable than an inanimate object not to mention she is a master of evasion. The rubble and dust isn't for the sharingan it more or less can be used to hinder Kamui from hitting her.


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## NamesClassified (Mar 5, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> The one where obito used Kamui on Naruto's rasengan.


Kakashi's the one who warped the Rasengan. He did is right when Obito's arm was fazing through Naruto so the Rasengan would hit Obito in the Kamui Dimension. 


SakuraLover16 said:


> I understand what you are saying about the Kamui logic but at the same point Tsunade isn't slow which I know you are aware of and also she is a human which makes her movements a lot less predictable than an inanimate object not to mention she is a master of evasion. The rubble and dust isn't for the sharingan it more or less can be used to hinder Kamui from hitting her.


Him being able to warp Kcm Naruto's(who's faster then Ay) Rasengan the second before it touched Obito should put his warping speed above Tsunades speed regardless of her evasion skills IMO. It's not like Kamui will necessarily be seen by her to avoid anyway.

Dust and rubble can't block a Sharigan's ability to see her chakra, so he can still see and warp her.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Blu-ray (Mar 5, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> FKS Kakashi= War arc Kakashi


Kage Summit Kakashi can't warp himself and War Arc Kakashi doesn't stagger when using Kamui once let alone multiple times. So they aren't the same.



Isaiah13000 said:


> He could only get away with that because he wasn't being attacked.





Isaiah13000 said:


> He wasn't being attacked when that happened.


Since when does being attacked or not stop him from using Kamui? Did Sasuke attacking him with arrows stop him from using it?


Isaiah13000 said:


> That's what I meant, he's gonna have to charge up a really big one so in order to take Tsunade down. But she won't give him the time needed to do that is the problem.


I get that Tsunade's tits are huge, but they're not Gedo Mazo huge. An honest mistake, though. Kakashi warped _two_ of Sasuke's Susano'o arrows before they reached him 

Those arrows are bigger than Tsunade's whole body let alone her head and obviously are far faster, so the notion that he somehow can't warp her quick enough is nonsensical.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 3


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 6, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


>







> When he wasn't being attacked by anyone.
> He can't just warp someone off the bat is my point, he needs them to be immobilized or given enough time to charge up a big Kamui in order to kill someone with it.



Was Uchiha Madara immobilized when he tried to warp him or did it take him long to charge it?



> The knowledge is "Anime" and as far as I know Kakashi doesn't know anymore about Tsunade's Creation Rebirth in the anime than he does in the manga. So that knowledge isn't going to help him here at all.



I doubt someone so close to the Hokage would lack knowledge on Tsunade's regen ability, one of the reasons why she is the great Sannin. 

Even if he did, that's why he always uses clones right?



> That was a defensive feat, and with Naruto it was a supplementary feat and Kakashi wasn't under fire. Kamui's effectiveness is not consistent, when it comes to using it for defensive or supplementary purposes Kishi has no problem letting Kakashi instantly warp shit. But when it comes time to use it offensively, Kakashi either:
> 
> 1. Uses it when he isn't under attack.
> 2. Uses it when he was given enough time to charge up a big one.
> ...



1- Why is it that he was gonna warp Kakuzu with Kamui when being under attack and without having enough time to warp a big one? That pretty much shuts down point one and two. 

2-Why does he need a big one vs Tsunade?

3-He used it against the Gedo's head with his own chakra twice.




> Probably not considering Hashirama's superior regeneration cannot regrow limbs.



Where is this stated? I thought the consensus was that Tsunade can easily tank and regen from all hits and now she can't regrow limbs?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## FlamingRain (Mar 6, 2018)

Hashirama's restorative ability is _not_ superior to Sōzō Saisei.

It's better than Tsunade's standard medical Ninjutsu.

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## Shazam (Mar 6, 2018)

kakashi wins.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 6, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> Since when does being attacked or not stop him from using Kamui? Did Sasuke attacking him with arrows stop him from using it?


 No they didn't but like I said, that was a defensive use.


> I get that Tsunade's tits are huge, but they're not Gedo Mazo huge. An honest mistake, though. Kakashi warped _two_ of Sasuke's Susano'o arrows before they reached him
> 
> Those arrows are bigger than Tsunade's whole body let alone her head and obviously are far faster, so the notion that he somehow can't warp her quick enough is nonsensical.


I know it doesn't make much sense, but that is what we were presented with. Like I've said many times, Kakashi has already had the ability to almost instantly warp large objects since the start of Part 2. Yet, this did not stop him from:

Being portrayed as the underdog and weaker than every Kage level (Deidara, Kakuzu, Deva Path, V2 Jins) he has fought against throughout Part 2.
Admitting inferiority to Akatsuki Suppression Mission arc Naruto.
Awing at the fact that Jiraiya could take on six Paths while he had trouble with two.
Being portrayed as far weaker than Pain arc SM Naruto.
Awing at the fact that Sasuke single-handedly (as far as he knew) took down Danzo.
Yet you and some other users here expect me to believe that Kakashi is way stronger in the War arc now and is capable of one-shotting other Kage levels easily based on his feats in the arc. Even though he's already had feats like that since the start of Part 2, back when he was portrayed as inferior to AKS Naruto, Jiraiya, SM Naruto, MS Sasuke, and Danzo? Yeah, I'm not buying that. It's pretty clear he is not on the level you think he is on.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Was Uchiha Madara immobilized when he tried to warp him or did it take him long to charge it?


 Neither, but he still wasn't being attacked. That's still one of the conditions that must be met before he decides to use it offensively.


> I doubt someone so close to the Hokage would lack knowledge on Tsunade's regen ability, one of the reasons why she is the great Sannin.


Why wouldn't he? From the sounds of it, it is a forbidden jutsu that Tsunade recently came up with herself and taught Sakura. It didn't sound like it was something anyone else knew about.


> Even if he did, that's why he always uses clones right?


Sure, but I don't think his clones can do a whole lot to change how the battle would go.


> 1- Why is it that he was gonna warp Kakuzu with Kamui when being under attack and without having enough time to warp a big one? That pretty much shuts down point one and two.


 How do you know he was gonna warp Kakuzu and not warp Kakuzu's attack?


> 2-Why does he need a big one vs Tsunade?


Because it's harder to escape and would warp her faster.


> 3-He used it against the Gedo's head with his own chakra twice.


I didn't mean all 3 requirements must be met at once, I meant that at least one of them must be met before he uses it offensively. In the Gedo Mazo's case, he wasn't under attack and charged up a big one.


> Where is this stated? I thought the consensus was that Tsunade can easily tank and regen from all hits and now she can't regrow limbs?


DB4 calls Hashirama's regeneration ability words like "ultimate" and "unparalleled" several times, if Tsunade's was stronger it wouldn't be called that. Though hers is called the ultimate too, that must be because her ability mimics his.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## JuicyG (Mar 6, 2018)

Kakashi wins

Reactions: Agree 1


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## FlamingRain (Mar 6, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> DB4 calls Hashirama's regeneration ability words like "ultimate" and "unparalleled" several times, if Tsunade's was stronger it wouldn't be called that. Though hers is called the ultimate too, that must be because her ability mimics his.



Databook also says the rules of medical Ninjutsu were broken with Tsunade's completion of Sōzō Saisei despite Hashirama's existing beforehand. 

Sōzō Saisei mimics Hashirama's ability insofar as not requiring hand-signs. That doesn't necessarily mean the potency is the same. We already know how Sōzō Saisei works and those mechanics would allow the recreation of limbs as was claimed.

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## Architect (Mar 6, 2018)




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## narut0ninjafan (Mar 6, 2018)

Tsunade's regeneration is actually canonically superior to Hashirama's, since he was disabled by Madara's black rods while JJ Madara's TSBs did nothing against Byakugou

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## Marvel (Mar 6, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> No they didn't but like I said, that was a defensive use.
> I know it doesn't make much sense, but that is what we were presented with. Like I've said many times, Kakashi has already had the ability to almost instantly warp large objects since the start of Part 2. Yet, this did not stop him from:
> 
> Being portrayed as the underdog and weaker than every Kage level (Deidara, Kakuzu, Deva Path, V2 Jins) he has fought against throughout Part 2.
> ...



Very funny how you say he was weaker than Wind Arc Naruto even though this is about WAR ARC KAKASHI WHO IS STRONGER THAN HIS PREVIOUS COUNTERPARTS.

Kakashi also took on the two strongest paths and was considered to be trouble some to the point where the Deva Path didn’t even want to approach him.


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## Architect (Mar 6, 2018)

Levi Ackerman said:


> Very funny how you say he was weaker than Wind Arc Naruto


wasn't he referring to Naruto managing to incorporate change in nature to rasengan, when he said Naruto surpasses him?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## NamesClassified (Mar 6, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> No they didn't but like I said, that was a defensive use.


If he's able to warp larger objects then Tsunade that are moving at much fasters speeds, then why can't he just warp her entire body? The answer is he can.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Yet you and some other users here expect me to believe that Kakashi is way stronger in the War arc now and is capable of one-shotting other Kage levels easily based on his feats in the arc. Even though he's already had feats like that since the start of Part 2, back when he was portrayed as inferior to AKS Naruto, Jiraiya, SM Naruto, MS Sasuke, and Danzo? Yeah, I'm not buying that. It's pretty clear he is not on the level you think he is on.


BOS to Pain Arc Kakashi's Kamui doesn't possess anywhere near the sheer speed nor precision of his later feats. Hell him fighting Version 2 Jin gives him higher physical stats to. You have to be seriously ignoring is FKS/War Arc feats to believe this. Their shouldnt be an expectation of anyone to make you believe Kakashi War Arc self is stronger then his previous incarnations, because he has plain as day feats proving it.

Whatsup with this portrayal argument? What does his portrayal have to do with raw feats. I'm also at a loss at why some people gloss over Tsunade being stalemated by Kabuto for a short time due to later feats(even i'm able to do it), but it's somehow ludicrous that an active ninja like Kakashi who's only 30 can't get stronger.





Isaiah13000 said:


> No they didn't but like I said, that was a defensive use.
> I know it doesn't make much sense, but that is what we were presented with. Like I've said many times, Kakashi has already had the ability to almost instantly warp large objects since the start of Part 2. Yet, this did not stop him from:
> 
> Being portrayed as the underdog and weaker than every Kage level (Deidara, Kakuzu, Deva Path, V2 Jins) he has fought against throughout Pain


*Deidara: *was actively fleeing from Kakashi and wanted to separate him from Naruto.
*Kakazu: *This is fair, but still a weaker incarnation fighting him.
*Deva Path: *had a perfect strategy for killing him, why use a technique that totally depletes his chakra?
*V2 Jins:* In what way was he portrayed as weaker then them?


Isaiah13000 said:


> 2. Admitting inferiority to Akatsuki Suppression Mission arc Naruto


Yes *Akatsuki Suppression Mission arc Kakashi *admitted inferiority because of a banned technique that Naruto can't even use


Isaiah13000 said:


> 3. Awing at the fact that Jiraiya could take on six Paths while he had trouble with two.


Without knowledge that Jiraiya only took on 3 well. Also War Arc Kakashi> Pain Arc. The Pain Arc is the same arc where Kakashi f...king died after two Kamui's, whereas in the war he's spanning Kamui despite just getting done fighting the Seven Ninja Swordsmen all day.


Isaiah13000 said:


> 4. Being portrayed as far weaker than Pain arc SM Naruto.


So? Everyone including Tsunade was as well.


Isaiah13000 said:


> 5. Awing at the fact that Sasuke single-handedly (as far as he knew) took down Danzo.


Yet he proceeds to engage Sasuke in combat. Being shocked at his former students strength proves little.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Because it's harder to escape and would warp her faster.


So it was a fluke when he warp Sasukes much faster Susano Arrow? People are also insuating that he's just effortlessly getting tagged in CQC when he really won't. And Kakashi Lightning Cable will be useless because the slower Tsunade will dodge it?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Blu-ray (Mar 6, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> No they didn't but like I said, that was a defensive use.


What is the difference? If Tsunade is attacking him and he warps her fist, that's defense no? Stands to reason he could simply warp her head under the same condition.



Isaiah13000 said:


> I know it doesn't make much sense, but that is what we were presented with.


We were presented with _Kakashi improving over time. _I can't understand why you're holding his war arc self to the standards of weaker iterations. Even his war arc self was improving since he even learned how to warp himself.



> Like I've said many times, Kakashi has already had the ability to almost instantly warp large objects since the start of Part 2.


You might as well be saying Gaara didn't ever improve because he always  had the ability to control sand.

Dude, a marksman that can shoot a bullseye dead center in 2018 isn't any less of a marksman because he couldn't even shoot the board in 2008. What you're doing is holding the markman in 2018 to his standards in 2008. Both can fire the gun, but clearly the skill level is different.

Kakashi is no different. Just because he could use Kamui doesn't mean his skill with it is a constant. He _*improved*_. He couldn't aim for shit in BOS, warp quickly, or use it more than three times. Even when he got the aim down in the Pain arc he still couldn't risk using it because if it failed, his body would become a slow mess.

War Arc Kakashi has none of those issues. He used it at least 4 times with no sign of fatigue back to back with no physical debilitation when previously that would have *killed* him.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Yet you and some other users here expect me to believe that Kakashi is way stronger in the War arc


Because he is. That's not even debatable.



> capable of one-shotting other Kage levels easily based on his feats in the arc. Even though he's already had feats like that since the start of Part 2, back when he was portrayed as inferior to AKS Naruto, Jiraiya, SM Naruto, MS Sasuke, and Danzo? Yeah, I'm not buying that. It's pretty clear he is not on the level you think he is on.



You put too much emphasis on titles and levels. Tsunade is restricted and is a terrible matchup for him. That's all there is to it. By your rigid logic Sakura should not have hit Kaguya, Konohamaru should not have defeated Naraka, and Naruto should not have gutted Kabuto since they're on different levels, yet it happened.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Kisame (Mar 6, 2018)

You have Kakashi in a thread

Against Tsunade

And you choose to restrict Katsuyu instead of Kamui?



Kakashi doesn't even need Kamui to win.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 6, 2018)

Shark said:


> You have Kakashi in a thread
> 
> Against Tsunade
> 
> ...


He really does

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kisame (Mar 6, 2018)

Fuck it, Kakashi is more famous than Tsunade. Everyone whoever met him knows the copy ninja and immediately start praising him.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 6, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Databook also says the rules of medical Ninjutsu were broken with Tsunade's completion of Sōzō Saisei despite Hashirama's existing beforehand.
> Sōzō Saisei mimics Hashirama's ability insofar as not requiring hand-signs. That doesn't necessarily mean the potency is the same. We already know how Sōzō Saisei works and those mechanics would allow the recreation of limbs as was claimed.


What Hashirama uses isn't even a medical ninjutsu, it's just a natural power that his cells have. The fact that all of those statements were made about Hashirama's regeneration ability is why I think that Tsunade's Creation Rebirth got retconned to be weaker. 


Levi Ackerman said:


> Very funny how you say he was weaker than Wind Arc Naruto even though this is about WAR ARC KAKASHI WHO IS STRONGER THAN HIS PREVIOUS COUNTERPARTS.


 Stronger? Yes. Way stronger? To the point he leaped multiple tiers? No. 


> Kakashi also took on the two strongest paths and was considered to be trouble some to the point where the Deva Path didn’t even want to approach him.


The Asura Path is not the second strongest Path, that title belongs to the Animal Path. Also, the Deva Path called Kakashi a nuisance and Kakashi performed worse against Pain than Naruto or Jiraiya did. What he did is impressive, but not as impressive as you're making it out to be.


NamesClassified said:


> If he's able to warp larger objects then Tsunade that are moving at much fasters speeds, then why can't he just warp her entire body? The answer is he can.


I've already explained why many times. He can only do this if she is immobilized or if he had enough time to charge up a big Kamui. His portrayal does not support the notion that he can instantly one-shot another Kage level. It's going to take effort on his part before he can kill her.


> BOS to Pain Arc Kakashi's Kamui doesn't possess anywhere near the sheer speed nor precision of his later feats. Hell him fighting Version 2 Jin gives him higher physical stats to. You have to be seriously ignoring is FKS/War Arc feats to believe this. Their shouldnt be an expectation of anyone to make you believe Kakashi War Arc self is stronger then his previous incarnations, because he has plain as day feats proving it.


 I agree he is stronger, but only slightly. The only improvements he has is Kamui, and his stamina improvement can be written off as due to power inflation since everyone got a stamina boost in the war. Also, I'm talking about the time he managed to warp Deidara's Suicide Bombing Clone in an instant at the start of Part 2. The fact that he could do that, yet, was never portrayed on the level you're saying he is on should be proof that he isn't on that level.


> Whatsup with this portrayal argument? What does his portrayal have to do with raw feats. I'm also at a loss at why some people gloss over Tsunade being stalemated by Kabuto for a short time due to later feats(even i'm able to do it), but it's somehow ludicrous that an active ninja like Kakashi who's only 30 can't get stronger.


Feats are apart of a character's portrayal, they aren't entirely different things. Also, I never said Kakashi couldn't get stronger but not to the extent you are all making it out to be. There is nothing more than your subjective view of his feats that suggests he got significantly stronger. There is no statement supporting such at all nor does it make sense from a narrative standpoint.
*



			Deidara:
		
Click to expand...

*


> was actively fleeing from Kakashi and wanted to separate him from Naruto.


 Let's not be ridiculous now. Deidara was weakened against Kakashi and Naruto and Kakashi had to pull out his trump card to deal with him because he had no other way of doing so. Deidara's freaking clone almost one-shot Kakashi, Naruto, and Team Guy and Kakashi had to use trump card again to deal with it. Deidara was clearly portrayed as the stronger character at that moment.
*



			Kakazu:
		
Click to expand...

*


> This is fair, but still a weaker incarnation fighting him.


 Weaker? Yes. Much weaker? No.
*



			Deva Path:
		
Click to expand...

*


> had a perfect strategy for killing him, why use a technique that totally depletes his chakra?


 So the reason Kakashi didn't casually one-shot the Deva Path off the bat is because Kamui uses up some chakra? Really? You're telling me he would rather rely on some alternative strategy that has risks and may not work to take him down than effortlessly one-shot him like you all claim he can? Yeah, that makes no sense at all unless, of course, he can't casually one-shot him.
*



			V2 Jins:
		
Click to expand...

*


> In what way was he portrayed as weaker then them?


 Are you serious? He and Guy were getting pressured and pushed back the entire time. Those jins were using jutsu that was harming TBM Killer B and NTCM Naruto and fucking them up. The jins didn't even use any of the lethal jutsu they used on B and Naruto against Kakashi or Guy and they still couldn't beat them.


> Yes *Akatsuki Suppression Mission arc Kakashi *admitted inferiority because of a banned technique that Naruto can't even use


Yeah, and he isn't that much weaker than War Arc Kakashi.


> Without knowledge that Jiraiya only took on 3 well. Also War Arc Kakashi> Pain Arc. The Pain Arc is the same arc where Kakashi f...king died after two Kamui's, whereas in the war he's spanning Kamui despite just getting done fighting the Seven Ninja Swordsmen all day.


 Actually, Jiraiya took on all six off-panel and defeated one of them while missing an arm. Anyhow, I know that War Arc Kakashi is stronger, but not that much stronger is one of my points. Kakashi also only died after two Kamuis because he was severely wounded by the way.


> So? Everyone including Tsunade was as well.


 My point is according to you all who believe in "Kamui GG", Kakashi can one-shot SM Naruto too despite him being portrayed as on another level.


> Yet he proceeds to engage Sasuke in combat. Being shocked at his former students strength proves little.


You don't have a reaction like that unless the person who he killed was viewed as incredibly powerful.


> So it was a fluke when he warp Sasukes much faster Susano Arrow? People are also insuating that he's just effortlessly getting tagged in CQC when he really won't. And Kakashi Lightning Cable will be useless because the slower Tsunade will dodge it?


I'm getting bored of repeating myself, the arrow feat was defensive so it's irrelevant in this argument. Kakashi's offensive uses are different from his defensive ones. 


Blu-ray said:


> What is the difference? If Tsunade is attacking him and he warps her fist, that's defense no? Stands to reason he could simply warp her head under the same condition.


Defensive uses don't entail one-shotting other people.


> We were presented with _Kakashi improving over time. _I can't understand why you're holding his war arc self to the standards of weaker iterations. Even his war arc self was improving since he even learned how to warp himself.


Because the difference isn't that grand.


> You might as well be saying Gaara didn't ever improve because he always  had the ability to control sand.


 Gaara has shown astronomical growth throughout the series and has been stated to have gotten stronger. Kakashi has grown too, but not by some huge margin.


> Dude, a marksman that can shoot a bullseye dead center in 2018 isn't any less of a marksman because he couldn't even shoot the board in 2008. What you're doing is holding the markman in 2018 to his standards in 2008. Both can fire the gun, but clearly the skill level is different.


Look above, like I said, the difference isn't that grand. Kakashi could already nigh instantly warp giant ass targets at the start of Part 2. Him being able to do the same thing in the War Arc, but a bit more often doesn't support him leaping several tiers.


> Kakashi is no different. Just because he could use Kamui doesn't mean his skill with it is a constant. He _*improved*_. He couldn't aim for shit in BOS, *warp quickly*, or use it more than three times. Even when he got the aim down in the Pain arc he still couldn't risk using it because if it failed, his body would become a slow mess.


Again, Deidara's clone. Why does everyone keep forgetting about that? Also I guess I didn't make it clear that I believe he improved, just not by much.


> War Arc Kakashi has none of those issues. He used it at least 4 times with no sign of fatigue back to back with no physical debilitation when previously that would have *killed* him.


Look above. 


> Because he is. That's not even debatable.


 Yes it is, and you haven't provided proof that he got much stronger.


> You put too much emphasis on titles and levels. Tsunade is restricted and is a terrible matchup for him. That's all there is to it. By your rigid logic Sakura should not have hit Kaguya, Konohamaru should not have defeated Naraka, and Naruto should not have gutted Kabuto since they're on different levels, yet it happened.


I'm not saying that Kakashi cannot defeat someone on a higher level than himself at all. I'm saying he cannot defeat them in the way you are all proposing that he can because that does not support his portrayal whatsoever. At no point in the manga has Kakashi been portrayed as some top tier Kage level who can kill other Kage levels instantly by looking at them with ease: That is glorified fan-fiction that is not supported by the manga.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## FlamingRain (Mar 6, 2018)

Shark said:


> Fuck it, Kakashi is more famous than Tsunade.



???

He is?



Isaiah13000 said:


> What Hashirama uses isn't even a medical ninjutsu.



Madara referred to it as such, but ah well.



> The fact that all of those statements were made about Hashirama's regeneration ability is why I think that Tsunade's Creation Rebirth got retconned to be weaker.



It doesn't necessarily follow from those statements that Sōzō Saisei was retconned, though. Not when Sōzō Saisei was still called the "ultimate" and something that broke the rules of medical Ninjutsu, not when one of those statements is referring to it as a reason Hashirama was considered the strongest _in the past_, and not when Hashirama's ability can do _other_ things like be transferred to others.

Sōzō Saisei can have recreation of limbs over Hashirama's ability in spite of those statements.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kisame (Mar 6, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> ???
> 
> He is?


I think so.

Everyone who ever faced Kakashi knows who the "copy ninja" is.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Mar 6, 2018)

A self proclaimed god was also honoured to meet him


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## FlamingRain (Mar 6, 2018)

Shark said:


> I think so.
> 
> Everyone who ever faced Kakashi knows who the "copy ninja" is.



Yeah but who didn't know about Tsunade besides the guy that dropped off the map before she even became a ninja, who didn't know about Kakashi either?


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## Kisame (Mar 6, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> A self proclaimed god was also honoured to meet him


Not even Jiraiya got that kind of respect from Pain.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 6, 2018)

Shark said:


> Not even Jiraiya got that kind of respect from Pain.


Pein was too scared to give compliments.


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## Santoryu (Mar 6, 2018)

Shark said:


> Not even Jiraiya got that kind of respect from Pain.


indeed  

it was cool when darui and ei immediately recognised who he was before he even uttered a word.


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## Kisame (Mar 6, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Pein was too scared to give compliments.


Maybe.

Though that's unlikely given how he was only using Animal Path at first.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Santoryu (Mar 6, 2018)

Even the sage of six paths knows who kakashi is


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 6, 2018)

Kamui is not necessary for this battle, Kakashi is well-equipped to handle her jutsu array (e.g. one-dimensional, short-range fighting style). Considering Kakashi's fought Gai on multiple occasions and trained with him; The real strength about her arsenal is her opponent not knowing her physical attributes and characteristics.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Shazam (Mar 6, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Yeah but who didn't know about Tsunade besides the guy that dropped off the map before she even became a ninja, who didn't know about Kakashi either?



I'd wager that Kakashi is just as known around the narutoverse as Tsunade


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 6, 2018)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kamui is not necessary for this battle, Kakashi is well-equipped to handle her jutsu array (e.g. one-dimensional, short-range fighting style). Considering Kakashi's fought Gai on multiple occasions and trained with him; The real strength about her arsenal is her opponent not knowing her physical attributes and characteristics.


It must not totally be one dimensional considering she fought susanoo madara clones for hours. Also she was known in the third great ninja war for her battle prowess and medical ninjutsu.


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## Shazam (Mar 6, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> It must not totally be one dimensional considering she fought susanoo madara clones for hours. Also she was known in the third great ninja war for her battle prowess and medical ninjutsu.



If you consider her famous medical talents then no, she's not one-dimensional. But if you focus on just her fighting methods (bull rushing the opponents with amazing strength & durability), then yes it is one dimensional.


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## NamesClassified (Mar 6, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I've already explained why many times. He can only do this if she is immobilized or if he had enough time to charge up a big Kamui. His portrayal does not support the notion that he can instantly one-shot another Kage level. It's going to take effort on his part before he can kill her.


Please explain to me the differences between warping Sasukes Sussano arrow and Tsunade. Because the only difference i see is that the *arrow's speed and size makes it even more difficult to warp*, yet he did so in an instant so you assertion that he needs time to charge kamui holds no ground.


Isaiah13000 said:


> I agree he is stronger, but only slightly. The only improvements he has is Kamui, and his stamina improvement can be written off as due to power inflation since everyone got a stamina boost in the war. Also, I'm talking about the time he managed to warp Deidara's Suicide Bombing Clone in an instant at the start of Part 2. The fact that he could do that, yet, was never portrayed on the level you're saying he is on should be proof that he isn't on that level.


Kakashi's stamina was his biggest flaw throughout the entire series so writing it off when it has importance in a fight is illogical IMO.

Portrayals will never overtake feats on a battleforum.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Feats are apart of a character's portrayal, they aren't entirely different things. Also, I never said Kakashi couldn't get stronger but not to the extent you are all making it out to be. There is nothing more than your subjective view of his feats that suggests he got significantly stronger. There is no statement supporting such at all nor does it make sense from a narrative standpoint.


Portrayals will never overtake feats on a battleforum, especially in a series where it means little. Like Bluray said, Naruto beating High Jonin level Kabuto(ironically with a one shot technique), or Sassori losing to characters that a supposedly weaker Deidara could take out no diff proves that abilities triumph portrayal.

Speaking of portrayal, Kakashi was offered the position of Hokage even before Danzo and it took Danzo pleading to the Dayimo for him to get the offer so Kakashi's portayal= Hokage>Danzo.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Let's not be ridiculous now. Deidara was weakened against Kakashi and Naruto and Kakashi had to pull out his trump card to deal with him because he had no other way of doing so. Deidara's freaking clone almost one-shot Kakashi, Naruto, and Team Guy and Kakashi had to use trump card again to deal with it. Deidara was clearly portrayed as the stronger character at that moment.
> Weaker? Yes. Much weaker? No.


It's not my problem that Deidara's weakened. You claimed that Kakashi was portrayed as weaker when he wasn't. Kakashi pulling out a trump card matters little, it's still his power.


Isaiah13000 said:


> So the reason Kakashi didn't casually one-shot the Deva Path off the bat is because Kamui uses up some chakra? Really? You're telling me he would rather rely on some alternative strategy that has risks and may not work to take him down than effortlessly one-shot him like you all claim he can? Yeah, that makes no sense at all unless, of course, he can't casually one-shot him.


Yes!!!! Why on earth  would he use a technique that left him in the hospital for a week if he has another strategy and an entire village getting attacked by other Pains? Your seriously underestimating Kamui's disadvantages.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Are you serious? He and Guy were getting pressured and pushed back the entire time. Those jins were using jutsu that was harming


 You can't just pretend that Kakashi and Guy don't have on panel feats of being on the offensive in that fight. They were tagged only once on panel  


Isaiah13000 said:


> Those jins were using jutsu that was harming TBM Killer B and NTCM Naruto and fucking them up. The jins didn't even use any of the lethal jutsu they used on B and Naruto against Kakashi or Guy and they still couldn't beat them.



Are you insuating that the Jin were holding back on Guy and Kakashi? That would be an absurd claim. The six tails used its attack on Guy and Kakashi   The only other attack that the Jin could have used that Naruto was affected by was Coral Palm.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Yeah, and he isn't that much weaker than War Arc Kakashi.


His chakra reserves and Kamui are shit compared to is War Arc self and that will matter in the fight.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Actually, Jiraiya took on all six off-panel and defeated one of them while missing an arm. Anyhow, I know that War Arc Kakashi is stronger, but not that much stronger is one of my points. Kakashi also only died after two Kamuis because he was severely wounded by the way.


He only took on 3 with finesse. I hate to talk bad about my boy Jiraiya, but he got trounced taking on all six. Even he admitted that taking on 3 in direct combat might get him killed. 


Isaiah13000 said:


> My point is according to you all who believe in "Kamui GG", Kakashi can one-shot SM Naruto too despite him being portrayed as on another level.


I just want to state on record that I believe Kakashi has other ways to take her out.

Portrayal shouldn't under no circumstances take precedence over feats on a battle thread. Comparing/quantifying prestige is irrelevant in a fight.

Sm Naruto has long and mid range abilities on top of having a bunch of indistinguishable clones that can confuse the shit out of Kakashi, while Tsunades versatility is minuscule as hell.


Isaiah13000 said:


> I'm getting bored of repeating myself, the arrow feat was defensive so it's irrelevant in this argument. Kakashi's offensive uses are different from his defensive ones.



This argument is ridiculous. Please explain the differences between a charging Tsunade and a charging Sussano Arrow. Your failing to explain any difference in the application of Kamui in these situations and arguing as if both situations aren't defensive maneuvers.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Shazam (Mar 6, 2018)

@Isaiah13000 


There is zero difference between defensive & offensive Kamui usage. If Kamui can be used to warp something like a susanoo arrow coming in his general direction, he can warp a slower moving person coming at his general direction as well.
SM Naruto can avoid Kamui due to SM sensing MS building up chakra (Tsunade doesn't have that ability, nor the speed)
NBD is about match-ups, fighting styles that we never saw. Simply arguing for portrayal despite canon feats gives you little room to work in NBD. Tsunade may be generally ranked higher in a tier list, but that doesn't mean she can not be beaten by someone below her in a tier list, again due to match up

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 6, 2018)

Kakashi wins high diff.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 7, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> It must not totally be one dimensional considering she fought susanoo madara clones for hours. Also she was known in the third great ninja war for her battle prowess and medical ninjutsu.


Having just the stamina to last against someone who is only using less than a fifth of his power and still wrecking you is nothing to boast about really. She was exposed in that fight, in fact almost all the Gokage were, save Oonoki.


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## sabre320 (Mar 7, 2018)

Tsunade is generally on a higher tier as a shinobi via her support prowess but kakashi is her absolute counter via kamui which ignores her endurance and regen and she does not possess near the speed and reactions to outpace kakashis ms line of sight and precog.Considering her reputation and his knowledge he knows he cant draw out the fight and will end it with kamui and tsunade does not use clones to counter it .


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 7, 2018)

Ryuzaki said:


> Having just the stamina to last against someone who is only using less than a fifth of his power and still wrecking you is nothing to boast about really. She was exposed in that fight, in fact almost all the Gokage were, save Oonoki.


It doesn't make the feat any less impressive the only one who could have possibly beat him was the god of shinobi plus he had way more experience than all of them which is why he said they were nothing more than children fighting an adult. Also a case can be made about Tsunade being a key player in the Madara fight because she landed what would have been a fatal blow on him. His combat profiency and pre cog surpassed her own and she still managed to catch him off guard. Anyways Madara was hyped to have no equal except for Hashi so I don't see how they were exposed for being week considering they were fighting a being that had unlimited chakra woodstyle and nature energy to boost his attacks. Not to mention he didn't have to worry about dying because he was already dead. Anyways let's assume he Kamuis her to get out of box and she can reverse summon and get Katsuyu to take her out. Let's say he ends up taking a limb or two she can regrow them. Considering Tsunade is a master of evasion she is more than likely to avoid a direct hit also I'm not saying hat her smashing the ground would take away his sight more like he couldn't be able to Kamui her because the rock would block his sight for a second putting the rock in boxland instead of her. His long distance jutsu wouldn't work against her and he is dead if he gets in cqc with her. It can also be said that she can read his attack patterns from his eyes considering her students was able to figure out a pattern by the slight movements of a puppet masters fingers.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 7, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> No they didn't but like I said, that was a defensive use.
> I know it doesn't make much sense, but that is what we were presented with. Like I've said many times, Kakashi has already had the ability to almost instantly warp large objects since the start of Part 2. Yet, this did not stop him from:
> 
> Being portrayed as the underdog and weaker than every Kage level (Deidara, Kakuzu, Deva Path, V2 Jins) he has fought against throughout Part 2.
> ...



I mostly agree with you, but I think Kamui is a classic example of Kishimoto trying to bite off more than he can chew.

He had it in his head where Kakashi was in comparison to his stronger peers (Naruto, the Sannin, Akatsuki) but he introduced an ability that placed him on a level that was contrary to what character statements and general power portrayal has implied.

If it was the manga, Kishimoto would probably write Tsunade as the winner of this match regardless of Kamui, but for the purposes of this hypothetical NBD discussion, where there’s no feasible reason why Kakashi wouldn’t be able to just Kamui her head off, he will win.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Friendly 1


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## AmitDS (Mar 14, 2018)

Tsunade is stronger but Kamui can be plot convenient. It's supposed to take a few minutes to use but later on in the series he spammed it on fast moving targets. I guess if Kishimoto has to write it Tsunade is stronger and should win, however based on feats etc. Kakashi's cheat kamui can win it for him. I guess if Tsunade uses a heavenly foot of pain and summons Katsuyu at the start to overwhelm him she could possibly win due to the explosion of the terrain and the slug engulfing him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2018)

It's in Kakashi's character to Kamui GG such a dangerous CQC fighter and a Kage-level shinobi. 

Kamui GG? Kamui GG. (c)


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## Buuhan (Mar 14, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> The one where obito used Kamui on Naruto's rasengan. I understand what you are saying about the Kamui logic but at the same point Tsunade isn't slow which I know you are aware of and also she is a human which makes her movements a lot less predictable than an inanimate object not to mention she is a master of evasion. The rubble and dust isn't for the sharingan it more or less can be used to hinder Kamui from hitting her.


Putting up a dust cloud would obscure tsunades vision as well. It only serves as a way to stalemate, but it doesn’t make kamui ineffective. When the dust clears it’s still down to kamui.


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 14, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Putting up a dust cloud would obscure tsunades vision as well. It only serves as a way to stalemate, but it doesn’t make kamui ineffective. When the dust clears it’s still down to kamui.


Yeah but its not an auto gg anymore


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## Buuhan (Mar 14, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Yeah but its not an auto gg anymore


It still is. My entire point was that a dust cloud is only a temporary way to stop it. It’s not something that’ll work every single time especially since Kakashi isn’t limited to a single use of kamui.


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 14, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> It still is. My entire point was that a dust cloud is only a temporary way to stop it. It’s not something that’ll work every single time especially since Kakashi isn’t limited to a single use of kamui.


Yeah but he can't just throw it out there without thought either or he would be doing himself a disservice.


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## LostSelf (Mar 14, 2018)

Kai said:


> Kamui GG? Kamui GG.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 14, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> Please explain to me the differences between warping Sasukes Sussano arrow and Tsunade. Because the only difference i see is that the *arrow's speed and size makes it even more difficult to warp*, yet he did so in an instant so you assertion that he needs time to charge kamui holds no ground.


 It does, because he can't kill other Kage levels easily.


> Kakashi's stamina was his biggest flaw throughout the entire series so writing it off when it has importance in a fight is illogical IMO.


 His stamina doesn't change who he can and cant beat imho so I don't think it matters much.


> Portrayals will never overtake feats on a battleforum.


 How Kishi actually portrays his characters doesn't overtake the subjective view of feats? Okay then.


> Portrayals will never overtake feats on a battleforum, especially in a series where it means little. Like Bluray said, Naruto beating High Jonin level Kabuto(ironically with a one shot technique), or Sassori losing to characters that a supposedly weaker Deidara could take out no diff proves that abilities triumph portrayal.


 Kabuto only "lost" to Naruto because he let his guard down. Sasori also let Chiyo and Sakura win as well. So no, what you just said doesn't prove anything.


> Speaking of portrayal, Kakashi was offered the position of Hokage even before Danzo and it took Danzo pleading to the Dayimo for him to get the offer so Kakashi's portayal= Hokage>Danzo.


 What a dumb assertion, being Hokage is about more than power. It's about a number of things, power is only a part of it. The fact that Kakashi has already been portrayed as inferior to Danzo as well makes your argument wrong.


> It's not my problem that Deidara's weakened. You claimed that Kakashi was portrayed as weaker when he wasn't. Kakashi pulling out a trump card matters little, it's still his power.


 How was he not portrayed as weaker when he has to go all-out and use his trump card to harm an opponent who isn't even trying to harm him? And even then his trump card failed, and the opponent proceeded to (without any arms) to almost kill Kakashi and several others forcing Kakashi to use his trump card again and pretty much pass out.


> Yes!!!! Why on earth  would he use a technique that left him in the hospital for a week if he has another strategy and an entire village getting attacked by other Pains? Your seriously underestimating Kamui's disadvantages.


That's a ridiculous response, do you seriously believe that?


> You can't just pretend that Kakashi and Guy don't have on panel feats of being on the offensive in that fight. They were tagged only once on panel


 How does this change the fact that they were getting pressured the whole time?


> Are you insuating that the Jin were holding back on Guy and Kakashi? That would be an absurd claim. The six tails used its attack on Guy and Kakashi   The only other attack that the Jin could have used that Naruto was affected by was Coral Palm.


 The fact that they didn't use Coral Palm, Cat Claw, or Bug Bite against Kakashi and Guy should be proof that they weren't fighting at their best.


> His chakra reserves and Kamui are shit compared to is War Arc self and that will matter in the fight.


 I don't think this fight has much to do with stamina so I don't think it matters as much as you say it will. As for Kamui, you already know what my opinion on that is.


> He only took on 3 with finesse. I hate to talk bad about my boy Jiraiya, but he got trounced taking on all six. Even he admitted that taking on 3 in direct combat might get him killed.


I never said he won, my point was he held off all six and defeated one of them which is a lot better than what Kakashi did. Also, that was when Jiraiya was under the assumption he was fighting three Rinnegan users and was still figuring out their abilities.


> I just want to state on record that I believe Kakashi has other ways to take her out.


 Alright.


> Portrayal shouldn't under no circumstances take precedence over feats on a battle thread. Comparing/quantifying prestige is irrelevant in a fight.


We will have to agree to disagree here then.


> Sm Naruto has long and mid range abilities on top of having a bunch of indistinguishable clones that can confuse the shit out of Kakashi, while Tsunades versatility is minuscule as hell.


 Okay.


> This argument is ridiculous. Please explain the differences between a charging Tsunade and a charging Sussano Arrow. Your failing to explain any difference in the application of Kamui in these situations and arguing as if both situations aren't defensive maneuvers.


The arrow isn't a Kage-level character, that is the difference.


jnikools said:


> @Isaiah13000
> 
> 
> There is zero difference between defensive & offensive Kamui usage. If Kamui can be used to warp something like a susanoo arrow coming in his general direction, he can warp a slower moving person coming at his general direction as well.
> ...


 My point wasn't that Tsunade cannot be beaten by someone weaker than her, I'm saying she can't be beaten in the way any of you suggest because it does not support Kakashi's overall portrayal.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Buuhan (Mar 14, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Yeah but he can't just throw it out there without thought either or he would be doing himself a disservice.


its a good point, but the fight boils down to if you think it'll land.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shazam (Mar 14, 2018)

@Isaiah13000 nothing changes you've avoided the match up styles and replaced the outcome with reasoning of portrayal

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NamesClassified (Mar 14, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> It does, because he can't kill other Kage levels easily.


Because? Their isn't really a concrete reason why Tsunade is immune to Kamui.


Isaiah13000 said:


> His stamina doesn't change who he can and cant beat imho so I don't think it matters much.


Not having to actively conserve chakra and being able to spam jutsu will greatly increase his chances with any opponent.


Isaiah13000 said:


> How Kishi actually portrays his characters doesn't overtake the subjective view of feats? Okay then.


Feats are not subjective, they're concrete objective things we can actually discuss. Like I said comparing/quantifying prestige is impossible.

On that note, why exactly is Tsunade portrayal so much higher then part 2 Kakashi

-Both famous Ninja known around the entire world, check
-Both unequivocally stated to be Kage worthy, check
-Both required to assist in fighting the final villains (Obito/Jinchuriki and Madara), check




Isaiah13000 said:


> Kabuto only "lost" to Naruto because he let his guard down. Sasori also let Chiyo and Sakura win as well. So no, what you just said doesn't prove anything.


Kabuto lost because he also thought portrayal mattered in a fight and Naruto's Rasegan showed him otherwise. The fight shows that Kishimoto has no regard for prestige in a fight's outcome. The Genin's win over the Sound Four(who took out Minato Honorary Guard) is also a clear example of this IMO.

Sassori was pushed harder by the duo then they could ever do to Deidara. Sassori is "portrayed" as stronger then Deidara, but Deidara's specific style of combat(flying/dropping bombs) makes him more of a threat to Sakura/Chiyo then Sassori.


Isaiah13000 said:


> What a dumb assertion, being Hokage is about more than power. It's about a number of things, power is only a part of it. The fact that Kakashi has already been portrayed as inferior to Danzo as well makes your argument wrong.


Again I really hate arguing about "portrayals" but in what way was Danzo "portrayed" as stronger then Kakashi?

And yes being Hokage is about a number of things, but Danzo's seniority, high rank in Konoha's government and his decades of commanding Root meant that he had an edge in anything that mattered(aside from strength) when being chosen for Hokage and *Kakashi still almost got the job.*

I'm still really shocked that prestige overtakes abilities on a* battleforum where all we can reasonably do is compare abilities. *


Isaiah13000 said:


> How was he not portrayed as weaker when he has to go all-out and use his trump card to harm an opponent who isn't even trying to harm him? And even then his trump card failed, and the opponent proceeded to (without any arms) to almost kill Kakashi and several others forcing Kakashi to use his trump card again and pretty much pass out.


The fact that Deidara was actively trying to separate Kakashi from Naruto proves that Deidara himself considered Kakashi a credible threat

And what exactly is a close/mid range fighter like Kakashi supposed to to to an opponent that is not only running away, but can also *fly? *Put Tsunade in Kakashi's situation and she'd be useless as well. Would it be because of her weaker portrayal? No it would be because his abilities matter more then silly prestige.


Isaiah13000 said:


> That's a ridiculous response, do you seriously believe that?


I'm not seeing the ridiculousness in my statement. If Kakashi has a sound method of beating Pain, then why use a technique that completely exhaust his chakra reserves and that might not work? Having the *entire rest of the village to worry about* is another great incentive not to use Kamui.


Isaiah13000 said:


> How does this change the fact that they were getting pressured the whole time?


They got tagged *ONCE. *Guy and Kakashi didn't even get damaged from the attack. Your definition of "pressured" needs revision because in almost every fight in Naruto the losing characters can tag their opponents, even if they are weaker.

Besides I don't see how having trouble fighting 3 *V2 Jinchuriki* would be a negative stain on Kakashi.



Isaiah13000 said:


> The fact that they didn't use Coral Palm, Cat Claw, or Bug Bite against Kakashi and Guy should be proof that they weren't fighting at their best.


In order for this point to be valid you'd have to to believe that Obito was *actively holding back against Guy and Kakashi*, which of course would be ridiculous*. *Besides we don't know what techniques were used off panel while Naruto was talking to Son Goku.


Isaiah13000 said:


> I never said he won, my point was he held off all six and defeated one of them which is a lot better than what Kakashi did. Also, that was when Jiraiya was under the assumption he was fighting three Rinnegan users and was still figuring out their abilities.


Ok? I don't really understand the importance of the comparisons here. Kakashi saying "I can't believe Master Jiraiya took on six of them" isn't a knock on Kakashi's portrayal, literally no kage during the Pain Arc could do so either including Tsunade. I'm postive any ninja in that arc would have said the same thing in their head.

Are you saying Sage Mode Jiraiya> Pain Arc Kakashi? I agree. but not because of "portrayals", but because Jiraiya has feats/abilities that give him clear advantages.


Isaiah13000 said:


> The arrow isn't a Kage-level character, that is the difference.


There is no difference between the arrow and Tsunade. Sticking Kage in your response doesn't change that


Isaiah13000 said:


> My point wasn't that Tsunade cannot be beaten by someone weaker than her, I'm saying she can't be beaten in the way any of you suggest because it does not support Kakashi's overall portrayal.


If Kishimoto wrote the battle, i'm sure he wouldn't have Kakashi instantly one shot Tsunade. I can only compare/quantify abilities of characters, not how Kishimoto would and wouldn't have a fight play out

If you wish for me to showcase other methods that might beat Tsunade I can do that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Braiyan (Mar 14, 2018)

Katsuyu was the only comfortable answer Tsunade had for Kamui, and Kakashi knows how hard it would be to take Tsunade down without it (an advantage he did not have in other battles where he did not resort to Kamui). Tsunade is neither faster nor bigger than a Susano'o arrow, and Kakashi knows it would be a oneshot if either were to hit him directly. Therefore it's Kamui gg.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 15, 2018)

jnikools said:


> @Isaiah13000 nothing changes you've avoided the match up styles and replaced the outcome with reasoning of portrayal


Under no condition in any match-up is Kakashi casually one-shotting another S-rank shinobi. I'm not ignoring anything, I don't believe Kakashi can do that no matter who he fights for reasons I've already explained. If Kakashi was Obito or Madara then him casually one-shotting another Kage-level is okay, but he isn't, so it isn't.


NamesClassified said:


> Because? Their isn't really a concrete reason why Tsunade is immune to Kamui.


You already know why, because it doesn't support his portrayal.


> Not having to actively conserve chakra and being able to spam jutsu will greatly increase his chances with any opponent.


 Personally I cannot think of anyone who he can beat in the War Arc that he couldn't beat before due to a stamina increase. But if you can, then alright.


> Feats are not subjective, they're concrete objective things we can actually discuss. Like I said comparing/quantifying prestige is impossible.


 If feats weren't subjective there wouldn't be so many countless arguments about character's feats now would there?


> On that note, why exactly is Tsunade portrayal so much higher then part 2 Kakashi
> 
> -Both famous Ninja known around the entire world, check
> -Both unequivocally stated to be Kage worthy, check
> -Both required to assist in fighting the final villains (Obito/Jinchuriki and Madara), check


 It's not because I think Tsunade is portrayed as stronger that Kakashi cannot casually one-shot. It's because she's portrayed as a Kage in general that I don't think he can do it.


> Kabuto lost because he also thought portrayal mattered in a fight and Naruto's Rasegan showed him otherwise. The fight shows that Kishimoto has no regard for prestige in a fight's outcome. The Genin's win over the Sound Four(who took out Minato Honorary Guard) is also a clear example of this IMO.


You act like Genma and Raido have been portrayed as being strong or something. They have no noticeable hype or feats whatsoever, so their portrayal is poor to begin with. Not to mention it was a four vs two fight, and the Sound Four were left exhausted afterwards themselves.


> Sassori was pushed harder by the duo then they could ever do to Deidara. Sassori is "portrayed" as stronger then Deidara, but Deidara's specific style of combat(flying/dropping bombs) makes him more of a threat to Sakura/Chiyo then Sassori.


That's just match-ups.


> Again I really hate arguing about "portrayals" but in what way was Danzo "portrayed" as stronger then Kakashi?


 MS Sasuke and SM Naruto were portrayed as equals, and SM Naruto was portrayed as much stronger than Kakashi, and Danzo was portrayed as a serious challenge for MS Sasuke. Hell, had it not been for Karin and Obito's interference Danzo could've won or at least stalemated MS Sasuke. That, combined with Kakashi's reaction to Sasuke killing Danzo makes it pretty obvious that Danzo is a lot stronger than Kakashi is.


> And yes being Hokage is about a number of things, but Danzo's seniority, high rank in Konoha's government and his decades of commanding Root meant that he had an edge in anything that mattered(aside from strength) when being chosen for Hokage and *Kakashi still almost got the job.*


That still in no way places Kakashi's portrayal on par or above that of Danzo's. Danzo was basically the main antagonist in the Five Kage Summit arc and Sasuke's personal villain who pushed Sasuke to his limits despite having some assistance from Karin and Obito (by this I mean Karin giving Sasuke information and Obito telling Sasuke to get away from Danzo's seal). This is also all of course, not even taking into account how strong Danzo is with Kotoamatsukami in his arsenal. You'd have to be doing some serious downplaying on Danzo's side or wanking on Kakashi's side in order to say Kakashi was portrayed as as strong as or even stronger than Danzo.


> I'm still really shocked that prestige overtakes abilities on a* battleforum where all we can reasonably do is compare abilities.*


 It's not prestige, it's just simple statements that are meant to tell the viewer who is stronger than who in the author's story. We can compare statements just as much as we can compare abilities, and sometimes it's better to do that because statements are objective unlike our interpretation of feats which is subjective.


> The fact that Deidara was actively trying to separate Kakashi from Naruto proves that Deidara himself considered Kakashi a credible threat.


 Doesn't mean that Deidara wasn't stronger than Kakashi at the moment.


> And what exactly is a close/mid range fighter like Kakashi supposed to to to an opponent that is not only running away, but can also *fly? *Put Tsunade in Kakashi's situation and she'd be useless as well. Would it be because of her weaker portrayal? No it would be because his abilities matter more then silly prestige.


 No she wouldn't, because she has Katsuyu in her arsenal and she can leap significantly higher than Kakashi.


> I'm not see the ridiculousness in my statement. If Kakashi has a sound method of beating Pain, then why use a technique that completely exhaust his chakra reserves and that might not work? Having the *entire rest of the village to worry about* is another great incentive not to use Kamui.


You just said Kakashi could one-shot the likes of Pain easily despite being portrayed as vastly inferior. All based on his usage of Kamui, but he didn't do it, just because that would exhaust him and he still had the rest of the village to worry about. That sir, is completely absurd.


> They got tagged *ONCE. *Guy and Kakashi didn't even get damaged from the attack. Your definition of "pressured" needs revision because in almost every fight in Naruto the losing characters can tag their opponents, even if they are weaker.
> 
> Besides I don't see how having trouble fighting 3 *V2 Jinchuriki* would be a negative stain on Kakashi.


All I was trying to do is point out how they were portrayed as weaker, not stronger than their opponents.


> In order for this point to be valid you'd have to to believe that Obito was *actively holding back against Guy and Kakashi*, which of course would be ridiculous*. *Besides we don't know what techniques were used off panel while Naruto was talking to Son Goku.


 We saw what happened to Naruto and B when the jins started using their jutsu and they were pretty harmed by it. If they used that shit on Kakashi and Guy, unless you believe they would perform better, they would be fucked up too. The fact that they weren't that hurt heavily implies that they did not face what Naruto and B did. Hell, the fact that they didn't fight all six at once is apart of the reason they're still alive.


> Ok? I don't really understand the importance of the comparisons here. Kakashi saying "I can't believe Master Jiraiya took on six of them" isn't a knock on Kakashi's portrayal, literally no kage during the Pain Arc could do so either including Tsunade. I'm postive any ninja in that arc would have said the same thing in their head.
> 
> Are you saying Sage Mode Jiraiya> Pain Arc Kakashi? I agree. but not because of "portrayals", but because Jiraiya has feats/abilities that give him clear advantages.


It's an easy way of portraying Kakashi as Jiraiya's inferior is what I'm saying, and yes via both feats and hype Jiraiya is superior to Kakashi.


> If Kishimoto wrote the battle, i'm sure he wouldn't have Kakashi instantly one shot Tsunade. I can only compare/quantify abilities of characters, not what Kishimoto would and wouldn't have a fight play out


Well at least we can agree that Kishi would never let that happen.


> If you wish for me to showcase other methods that might beat Tsunade I can do that.


Go ahead.


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## Blu-ray (Mar 15, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Defensive uses don't entail one-shotting other people.


This is sidestepping my question. Warping her fist before it makes contact with his body is "defensive use" and something I assume you think he's fully capable of even by your rigid standard. My question is if he can do this, why can't he just warp her head instead.

There is ultimately no difference between defensive and offensive Kamui because the mechanics are the same.



> Because the difference isn't that grand.


Going from being incapable of warping any moving target to warping the then fastest attack in the manga is grand. Going from dying from 2 uses and a few Raikiri to spamming several Raikiri and 4 Kamui and being perfectly fine is grand. Being able to warp himself is grand.



> Gaara has shown astronomical growth throughout the series and has been stated to have gotten stronger. Kakashi has grown too, but not by some huge margin.


Don't change goalposts. Kakashi was also stated to be stronger and also showed his significant growth, but that's besides the point with my comparison.

The point is that you said the Kakashi always had the ability to warp large objects as if to imply there was nothing improved on "since he could always do it." If you're gonna be consistent, then there is no difference with Gaara since he could always control sand and has literally nothing outside of that one ability.

But we know that isn't true. The speed of Gaara's sand improved just as the speed of Kakashi's warp did. The volume of the amount of sand he could control improved just as the number of times Kakashi could warp did.



> Look above, like I said, the difference isn't that grand. Kakashi could already nigh instantly warp giant ass targets at the start of Part 2. Him being able to do the same thing in the War Arc, but a bit more often doesn't support him leaping several tiers.


Are you just going to complete dismiss his improved *accuracy, *forever? You have been for a while now, but when your response to a marksman allegory is the equivalent of saying_ "he has more bullets in the chamber so what" _it's particularly apparent.

Warping large objects and the amount of times he can warp isn't what makes him threatening here. It:s the nigh instant speed and laser accuracy.



> Again, Deidara's clone. Why does everyone keep forgetting about that? Also I guess I didn't make it clear that I believe he improved, just not by much.


No one forgot that.. What we do remember is Deidara having time to think during the first warp and flat out dodging the second, which you seem intent on ignoring.



> Look above.


Nothing you posted addresses how significant going from using Kamui 3 times and being bed ridden to  4 times with no side effect is. Nothing you posted even acknowledged his superior aim.



> Yes it is, and you haven't provided proof that he got much stronger.


I did. I brought up him failing to warp a slow moving target to warping one of the fastest things in the  manga. You dismissed it by saying he could warp a stationary target.

I brought up him going dying with 2 Kamui to spamming 4 with no side effect. You don't even address and instead reply with "look above."



> I'm not saying that Kakashi cannot defeat someone on a higher level than himself at all.


Which makes this all the more paradoxical, because you argue as if Kamui will never work ever on Tsunade who's on his level, let alone anyone above.



> I'm saying he cannot defeat them in the way you are all proposing that he can because that does not support his portrayal whatsoever. At no point in the manga has Kakashi been portrayed as some top tier Kage level who can *kill other Kage levels instantly by looking at them with ease: *


I never implied such a thing. Ay can stop him from getting a lock by moving faster than he can visually track. Gaara can completely remove himself from view and still attack normally. Danzo undoes it with Izanagi. Even low Kage Mei can preempt it with Kirigakure no Jutsu.

This is about Tsunade and Tsunade alone, and beating her isn't saying he Kamui ggs everyone.


> That is glorified fan-fiction that is not supported by the manga.


This manga had Tsunade's contemporary be effortlessly undone by basic Sharingan twice. If it wants us to believe it'll always fail no matter what, then it has a funny way of showing it.

No one is saying Kakashi effortlessly stomps either, just that Kamui inevitably grants him victory here when its used.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## StarWanderer (Mar 15, 2018)

Is this sh*t still going on?

War Arc Kakashi Kamui GGs her into pocket dimension.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## NamesClassified (Mar 15, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> You already know why, because it doesn't support his portrayal.


OMG ok so you concede that you have no actual argument and your going to fall back on a meaningless statement like portrayal? If that's your attitude then why even debate?


Isaiah13000 said:


> If feats weren't subjective there wouldn't be so many countless arguments about character's feats now would there?


People can argue the significance of a feat in relation to their opponent, but I've never seen anyone dismiss a feat in favor of prestige on any forum i've been on.


Isaiah13000 said:


> It's not because I think Tsunade is portrayed as stronger that Kakashi cannot casually one-shot. It's because she's portrayed as a Kage in general that I don't think he can do it.


Being a Kage isn't a milestone Tsunade can fall back on . Besides Kakashi was confident that he could one-shot Obito despite his hype during the Kage Summit.


Isaiah13000 said:


> You act like Genma and Raido have been portrayed as being strong or something. They have no noticeable hype or feats whatsoever, so their portrayal is poor to begin with. Not to mention it was a four vs two fight, and the Sound Four were left exhausted afterwards themselves.


Being the Fourth Hokage's personal guards and being hand picked to protect the Fire Daiymo during the war is hype that should easily surpass the strength of kid Genin's. 4 Genin shouldn't be able to push the Sound Four harder then two Special Jonin, but Kishimoto made it so.


Isaiah13000 said:


> That's just match-ups.


So is this fight.


Isaiah13000 said:


> MS Sasuke and SM Naruto were portrayed as equals


Based on?


Isaiah13000 said:


> Hell, had it not been for Karin and Obito's interference Danzo could've won or at least stalemated MS Sasuke. That, combined with Kakashi's reaction to Sasuke killing Danzo makes it pretty obvious that Danzo is a lot stronger than Kakashi is.


Kakashi being surprised at his former students strength adds nothing to Danzo's portrayal. The fact is that *despite Kakashi knowing Sasuke killed Danzo, he still proceeds to challenge him.*


Isaiah13000 said:


> That still in no way places Kakashi's portrayal on par or above that of Danzo's. Danzo was basically the main antagonist in the Five Kage Summit arc and Sasuke's personal villain who pushed Sasuke to his limits despite having some assistance from Karin and Obito (by this I mean Karin giving Sasuke information and Obito telling Sasuke to get away from Danzo's seal). This is also all of course, not even taking into account how strong Danzo is with Kotoamatsukami in his arsenal. You'd have to be doing some serious downplaying on Danzo's side or wanking on Kakashi's side in order to say Kakashi was portrayed as as strong as or even stronger than Danzo.


Man this "portrayal" argument is really senseless. If you want to argue portrayal, Danzo and Kakashi both were Kage candidates, both of them were unwavering in the face of MS Sasuke and both were confident they could take out Obito. If you really want to discuss Kakashi vs Danzo without "portrayal", make a thread about it and i'll comment.

I also am curious if you think techniques like the supposed one-shot Kotoamatsukami is ineffective against guys like Hashirama and Madara because of their portrayal.


Isaiah13000 said:


> It's not prestige, it's just simple statements that are meant to tell the viewer who is stronger than who in the author's story. We can compare statements just as much as we can compare abilities, and sometimes it's better to do that because statements are objective unlike our interpretation of feats which is subjective.


Their is no statement that corroborates Tsunade or Danzo being portrayed above Kakashi in the manga so portrayal arguments hold no ground in this debate and it's a silly argument anyway.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Doesn't mean that Deidara wasn't stronger than Kakashi at the moment.


Not based on your precious "portrayal".


Isaiah13000 said:


> No she wouldn't, because she has Katsuyu in her arsenal and she can leap significantly higher than Kakashi.


Unless Katsyuu can fly I don't see her usefulness in that scenario. And summoning Katsyuu in that small area Naruto and Kakashi were in would require Katsyuu to be summoned in a size not large enough to be of any service to Tsunade.


Isaiah13000 said:


> she can leap significantly higher than Kakashi.


As I said above Katsyuu's useless and Tsunade jumping higher then Kakashi is fanfiction. Who knows who jumps higher. Besides Deidara has Onooki level speed while airborne.


Isaiah13000 said:


> You just said Kakashi could one-shot the likes of Pain easily despite being portrayed as vastly inferior.


I challenge you to quote me saying this.


Isaiah13000 said:


> All based on his usage of Kamui, but he didn't do it, just because that would exhaust him and he still had the rest of the village to worry about. That sir, is completely absurd.


I don't understand why your holding my opinion on War Arc Kakashi's Kamui skill to his Pain Arc variant. *They are not the same.*


Isaiah13000 said:


> All I was trying to do is point out how they were portrayed as weaker, not stronger than their opponents.


Again based on what? Certainly not their performance because they fought like champs.


Isaiah13000 said:


> We saw what happened to Naruto and B when the jins started using their jutsu and they were pretty harmed by it. If they used that shit on Kakashi and Guy, unless you believe they would perform better, they would be fucked up too. The fact that they weren't that hurt heavily implies that they did not face what Naruto and B did. Hell, the fact that they didn't fight all six at once is apart of the reason they're still alive.


Just because they didn't use those techniques on them doesn't negate the fact that they were "portrayed" to be able to fight six full powered V2 Jinchuriki. Beside the techniques you mentioned require physical contact and Kakashi and Guy barley got tagged.


Isaiah13000 said:


> It's an easy way of portraying Kakashi as Jiraiya's inferior is what I'm saying, and yes via both feats and hype Jiraiya is superior to Kakashi.
> Well at least we can agree that Kishi would never let that happen.
> Go ahead.


*War Arc Kakashi> Pain Arc Kakashi.* Why people keep needing to bring this up puzzles me. Besides Tsunade doesn't =Jiraiya in fighting styles so your statement has nothing to do with the outcome of this battle.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Well at least we can agree that Kishi would never let that happen.


To bad Kishimoto isn't here to answer our questions. So unfortunately us debaters can only debate skills and abilities.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Go ahead.


He could clone feint her and bisect or decapitate her with Lightning Cable. He also could always paralyze her with a Water/Lightning combo and then use the technique as well.

Reactions: Like 5


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## nmwn93 (Apr 23, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> She can't regenerate her head, so ripping it off with Kamui puts her down. Even if we want to assume she can regrow her head/regrow her entire body from the neck down, then he simply sends her entire body to boxland.
> 
> 
> Deidara _didn't_ avoid it. Kakashi _missed_. This also isn't beginning of Shippuden Kakashi who can't aim or control the barrier's shape, but War Arc Kakashi who has mastered it completely and _*won't*_ be missing.


You moderators always talk as if you know it all. Always disliked that about y'all. Here's the thing you bring up all the times he used his eye. However all of those opponents lack knowledge .Tsunade knows all about his eye. Idk if he knows anything about the 100 healings. Tsunade speed feats are often ignored so i won't bother .However she has kakashi beat in one regard. CHAKRA. If he ises kamuoli that's be terrible as he cant miss even a lil that's eat uphis stamina. Tsunade makes clones too you know. Slug queen takes this

Reactions: Like 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Blu-ray (Apr 23, 2018)

Neko White said:


> You moderators always talk as if you know it all. Always disliked that about y'all.


What does my being a moderator have to do with anything? Did I post somewhere that people should shut the fuck up and concede cause I'm an all knowing mod or something?



> Here's the thing you bring up all the times he used his eye. However all of those opponents lack knowledge .Tsunade knows all about his eye. Idk if he knows anything about the 100 healings. Tsunade speed feats are often ignored so i won't bother .However she has kakashi beat in one regard. CHAKRA. If he ises kamuoli that's be terrible as he cant miss even a lil that's eat uphis stamina.


Knowing about Kamui won't help her unless she has some way to exploit that knowledge, and Kakashi isn't going to miss Tsunade when has track record of perfect accuracy from the Pain arc onward. 



> Tsunade makes clones too you know.


Show me one panel of her using clones ever.



> Slug queen takes this


OIC. I dared to suggest your fave would lose.

Reactions: Like 2 | Friendly 1


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## nmwn93 (Apr 23, 2018)

It's a tone thing. she cant regenerate her head. you don't know that. show me a panel where it says she cant regenerate after losing her head. 

again chakra. the thing stopping kakashi from kamu-ing  as soon as kamui starts tsunade can use bushins or sub out. and regen whatever he started to take. and you are suggesting that she cant use clones cuz we never see them on panel> 

ohhh, semantics. you mean one of the sannin cant use clones because there is no panel. cool. show me a panel where kakashi beheaded anyone using kamui hell show me where he bisected someone with it please take your time.



Blu-ray said:


> What does my being a moderator have to do with anything? Did I post somewhere that people should shut the fuck up and concede cause I'm an all knowing mod or something?
> .
> 
> Knowing about Kamui won't help her unless she has some way to exploit that knowledge, and Kakashi isn't going to miss Tsunade when has track record of perfect accuracy from the Pain arc onward.
> ...

Reactions: Lewd 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Apr 23, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> What does my being a moderator have to do with anything? Did I post somewhere that people should shut the fuck up and concede cause I'm an all knowing mod or something?



I actually remember you saying that to someone.

Edit: found the post



Blu-ray said:


> Bitch shut your non OG mod being ass up, I rule here, this is my town.



Extremely Disgraceful @Blu-ray

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 3


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## nmwn93 (Apr 25, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> I actually remember you saying that to someone.
> 
> Edit: found the post
> 
> ...


Oh well look at that. a rude moderator what are the odds. thanks for the back up man.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 25, 2018)

Kakashi takes Tsunade to the cleaners and it isn't even close, give her Katsuyu and the result is the same.
If you restrict, MS for Kakashi, he still wins against her with standard sharingan genjutsu.
Katsuyu's at best would require a few moments to break the genjutsu but she would lose in that scenario, unless she sprouts a new head, in which case Kakashi is screwed.


Crimson Flam3s said:


> I actually remember you saying that to someone.
> 
> Edit: found the post
> 
> ...





Neko White said:


> Oh well look at that. a rude moderator what are the odds. thanks for the back up man.


I have not seen the context of the post, it sounds as if Blu-ray was being sarcastic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## nmwn93 (Apr 25, 2018)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi takes Tsunade to the cleaners and it isn't even close, give her Katsuyu and the result is the same.
> If you restrict, MS for Kakashi, he still wins against her with standard sharingan genjutsu.
> Katsuyu's at best would require a few moments to break the genjutsu but she would lose in that scenario, unless she sprouts a new head, in which case Kakashi is screwed.
> 
> ...


retired staff defending a moderator look at the odds lol. we both have kakashi profile pics so god bless.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Apr 25, 2018)

Neko White said:


> Oh well look at that. a rude moderator what are the odds. thanks for the back up man.





Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi takes Tsunade to the cleaners and it isn't even close, give her Katsuyu and the result is the same.
> If you restrict, MS for Kakashi, he still wins against her with standard sharingan genjutsu.
> Katsuyu's at best would require a few moments to break the genjutsu but she would lose in that scenario, unless she sprouts a new head, in which case Kakashi is screwed.
> 
> ...



Lol I just changed the text on quote. @Blu-ray  never said that.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 25, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Lol I just changed the text on quote. @Blu-ray  never said that.


Crimson just sitting back and enjoying the show, huh?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Blu-ray (Apr 25, 2018)

Neko White said:


> It's a tone thing.


Nah. You just have an obvious inferiority complex against mods.



> she cant regenerate her head. you don't know that. show me a panel where it says she cant regenerate after losing her head.


Show me a panel where she says she _can_ regenerate her head. Besides, absurd as it is, I still accounted for that possibility by pointing out he could simply warp her entire body.



> again chakra.


He has half a dozen shots of Kamui against someone he'd only need one, two at most against.



> the thing stopping kakashi from kamu-ing  as soon as kamui starts tsunade can use bushins or sub out. and regen whatever he started to take.


There's the small matter of her being too slow to use anything mid warp, whether she has clones or not. Not sure why you think clones would counter Kamui anyway.



> and you are suggesting that she cant use clones cuz we never see them on panel>
> 
> ohhh, semantics. you mean one of the sannin cant use clones because there is no panel. cool. show me a panel where kakashi beheaded anyone using kamui hell show me where he bisected someone with it please take your time.


 Now you show me.

A panel of her fists killing anyone
A panel of her using clones
A panel of her regeneration her head
Please. Take your time.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> I actually remember you saying that to someone.
> 
> Edit: found the post
> 
> ...


Shit. I got exposed.


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## Architect (Apr 27, 2018)

Kakashi:

Tsunade: P-p-please, go easy on me.

Kakashi: mkay.
​

Reactions: Like 1


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## Marvel (Apr 27, 2018)

Architect said:


> Kakashi:
> 
> Tsunade: P-p-please, go easy on me.
> 
> ...


Was just thinking about you..good to see you back man

Reactions: Like 1


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## Architect (Apr 27, 2018)

Gifted said:


> Was just thinking about you..good to see you back man


Thanks. I requested ban for a month for myself.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Marvel (Apr 27, 2018)

Architect said:


> Thanks. I requested ban for a month for myself.


Ooh damm


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