# Fujitora vs Kizaru



## TrolonoaZoro (Dec 5, 2013)

Like every other admiral, their feats are at minimum, but that doesn't stop us *the smart people* from knowing that Akainu>Aokiji>Kizaru. I'm asking where do you guys think Fuji lies in the admiral equation, and why.


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## Slenderman (Dec 5, 2013)

Kizaru high-extreme difficulty. I would assume that it would be like Akainu vs Aokiji esque type.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Dec 5, 2013)

Interesting. 
I'm impress way more by Fujitora, personally. He seems like a more well rounded fighter than Kizaru, who comes off as too dependent on lasers. *I'm not doubting he's a monster physically but Fujitora's precedent automatically make me think he's in a higher position* 
Scars and swordsmanship. While he too has a extremely explosive df. *well more like his techniques are, but it's essentially the same*


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## Lord Melkor (Dec 5, 2013)

Fujitora is my favorite Admiral and Kizaru least favorite, so as they are likely at similar level I side with Fujitora.


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## Language of Life (Dec 5, 2013)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> Interesting.
> I'm impress way more by Fujitora, personally. He seems like a more well rounded fighter than Kizaru, who comes off as too dependent on lasers. *I'm not doubting he's a monster physically but Fujitora's precedent automatically make me think he's in a higher position*
> Scars and swordsmanship. While he too has a extremely explosive df. *well more like his techniques are, but it's essentially the same*



Kizaru kept up with Rayleigh in Swordsmanship pretty damn well. His speed with his DF is undeniable, and his leg strength caught Whitebeards Bisento mid swing if i remember correctly (or maybe he just held it down?) Either way, his base strength, speed with his DF, and skill with a blade is certainly top tier worthy. Don't quote me on the last part though, i don't have a very good grasp on this forums idea of tiers considering i avoid those threads like the plauge. 

OT: I don't really know, im guessing Kizaru.


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## Mihawk (Dec 5, 2013)

Kizaru high difficulty.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Dec 5, 2013)

He actually got his cheeks cut by an old man who haven't fight for about 10 years at least. Of course it is impressive to keep up with Rayleigh on account that he was easily top 5 during his era, but old rayleigh is a really bad representation of what he used to be and I think we should have that in mind when taking a look at that battle.

His speed with his df has a charging time. *Rayleigh stopping him from blasting Zoro, Rayleigh stopping him from turning into light and getting away* so the speed argument with Kizaru has always been kind of bullshitty.

Blade, Strength and speed seem like are better for Fuji. *except for the "blade" part, because it's not about seems, he's clearly above*


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## Sayonara (Dec 5, 2013)

Give Kizaru benefit doubt for now, he has been portrayed nigh equal to  Aokiji and Akainu in every sense of the manner and not just because he shared the same rank.

That does nothing to effect Fuji potential though, depending on the path and experiences hes been through he can be less greater or equal to the others.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Dec 5, 2013)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> Like every other admiral, their feats are at minimum, but that doesn't stop us **the smart people* from knowing that Akainu>Aokiji>Kizaru*. I'm asking where do you guys think Fuji lies in the admiral equation, and why.


I mean, Akainu took on Whitebeard's rage and then kept on going. You're crazy to think they're nigh equal.


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## Sentomaru (Dec 5, 2013)

Kizaru wins with very high difficulty.

I don't see any of the original three Admirals losing against any of the newly conscripted ones. Aokiji is basically pre-skip Akainu's equal, and FA Akainu has to be the strongest for plot purpose so that's that. Even if we assume Kizaru was weaker than his colleagues it's only by a hair because of the Admrial dynamic and I don't see anybody fitting in-between him and Aokiji. The best thing I could see is that Issho and Borsalino/Saka-san are old buddys from their bounty hunter days and that Issho's always been some sort of 4th Reserve Admiral on the Marine's "emergency list" making him Kizaru's dead-equal. But then again... there's still Roykugyu and I doubt he will be any less impressive either. Probably a three-way tie with Kizaru winning after a 10 day struggle or so. Man fuck this shit for today I'm tired.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Dec 5, 2013)

That's bs though.
Akainu and Aokiji's hype is clearly better than Kizaru's. There is no reason to think they're that close. 
and no the title is not enough, Whitebeard share his title with Big mom and Kaido. *who are pretty much scrubs in comparison* 
I don't expect much grow from Kizaru because he's a static character who Oda has no other plans but to be an admiral. So that's mostly why I think a comparison to Fuji is fair. 
Akainu and Aokiji in the other hand are still quite active in the story, and will play important roles on it. Kizaru is back up for the marines side.


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## tanman (Dec 5, 2013)

Kizaru high difficulty? I dunno.
No way to tell the amount of difficulty really.


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## Language of Life (Dec 5, 2013)

> TrolonoaZoro said:
> 
> 
> > He actually got his cheeks cut by an old man who haven't fight for about 10 years at least. Of course it is impressive to keep up with Rayleigh on account that he was easily top 5 during his era, but old rayleigh is a really bad representation of what he used to be and I think we should have that in mind when taking a look at that battle.
> ...


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## TrolonoaZoro (Dec 5, 2013)

Language of Life said:


> Kizaru was not paying attention to Rayleigh when he was cut.


 um? No. 



> Also, Kizaru's not exactly a swordsman himself. As shown by all his other fights he mostly uses his legs, lazers, intangibility, and light travel in fights. So being able to tie, an albeit rusty, Rayleigh who is a swordsman should be seen as pretty good for a guy who's main fighting style does not revolve around swords. Nonetheless i was bringing that and his physical feats against WB up to highlight that his physical capabilities and skills are more versatile than i thought you were giving him credit for in the OP.


 Which is my point. You would think out of these two admirals the one who is in fact a swordsman should be better equipped no? Of course I gave him credit, I just pointed that Rayleigh was rusty and still got the best him. *minor cut, but it automatically tells you who's the best wielding a sword* 
I'm curious about those Whitebeard feats though, I'm not well versed in Marineford. But I don't remember Kizaru doing anything physical against Whitebeard or anyone else honestly.





> The charging time is inconsistent depending on plot. He needed to charge his foot for Zoro be cause Zoro can't die yet. Yet the mangrove he toppled in the blink of an eye had no plot protection and that only took two panels: one to show it leaving his foot and another to show it blowing up the tree. Same for his speed, he charged against Apoo to show us the technique and the SH because of plot, but made it form Apoo to Drake in the blink of an eye, no charge shown. I just think Rayleigh's reactions were just that fast to stop him in time. After all that i tend to give him the benefit of the doubt becaue we can only see it one way or the other and feel his portrayal is enough to give him at least comparable speed to say, Aokiji.


 How do you count how many times it take for a laser to charge in a stop time medium? I think you're assuming. *I know but I'm being modest* because there is no way for you to time it. He needed to charge his laser everytime he tried to use it and time and time again it's proven that you can intervene with it. *when he was about to kill Oars and the Zoro situation* at least you can agree that it is capable for someone to stop him on his track right? Now, do you think a fellow admiral wouldn't be in that list of people able to do so? The answer has to be yes. Which then makes this argument of plot useless, as we're discussing how the charging time would affect Fujitora a very able individual. 



> I agree Fuji is probably the better swordsman. But i have no reason to believe that makes him faster, or stronger, just more skilled with a sword. There is certainly no feat that makes him stronger. His best feat in that catagory is blocking Zoro, and thats certainly not better than stalemating rayleigh sword strikes and stopping WB bisento.


 I understand. However the fact that Fuji relies on his swordsmanship a physical art, creates a precedent I think, and thus makes me believe that Fuji will definitely be the one with the upper hand in these situations. 



> They shared the Yonkou title yes, but WB had a different title that spereated him form everyone else; being the WSM. I have a feeling Kaidou, BM, and Shanks will be closer in power, not equal, but closer than any of them were to WB.
> Thats all i have to say on that, i also don't believe it is the Admiral title that makes them closer in strength, but the actual feats.


 Shanks already has the benefit of the doubt because of his clash with Whitebeard. and again he seems way more relevant than the other Yonkou who are being set up to fall for the supernovas first. Or stepping stones for greater things to come. These two things make me doubt they should be close to Shanks. I could definitely see the gap being as big as the one Whitebeard has on Shanks. A very considerable one.



> I have to disagree with the static character thing though. Kizaru has two connection to Vegapunk through his Lazers being placed in the pacifista, and his nephew having been the captain of Vegapunks science unit. I have a feeling he will have more importance when Vegapunk gets more important in the story.


 That's interesting. Didn't think of that. *the Vegapunk connection* I guess we'll have to see.


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## trance (Dec 5, 2013)

I'm going with Kizaru extreme difficulty. 

IMO, it's like this...

Sakazuki >= Kuzan >= Kizaru >= Fujitora = Ryokugyu


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## Shanks (Dec 6, 2013)

Fujitora can multi-tasks, therefore giving him the advantage.


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## Shinthia (Dec 6, 2013)

Kizaru wins around extreme diff


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## Language of Life (Dec 6, 2013)

> TrolonoaZoro said:
> 
> 
> > um? No.
> ...


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## Enel (Dec 6, 2013)

Kizaru high-diff. So far Fuji didn't show enough to put him on the same level as the old admirals. He needs better feats.


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## Freechoice (Dec 6, 2013)

This thread is fucking stupid.

So is this post.

So is my face.


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## Shinthia (Dec 6, 2013)

I love What. He is great.


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## TheWiggian (Dec 6, 2013)

draw ............


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## TrolonoaZoro (Dec 6, 2013)

Language of Life said:


> > Wrong panel man. You showed their clash. Kizaru was cut on the cheek when Rayleigh was cutting at him while he was starting to move through the light path. Effectively cutting him off before he could fully use it. It's on the page right before yours, you even see Kizaru moving his head so he doesn't get cut further:
> >
> > Thats when he got cut, not the clash, but when he was going after the SH. Rayleighs blade does not even touch Kizaru in your link.
> 
> ...


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## Shinryu (Dec 6, 2013)

Kizaru high difficulty.


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## Language of Life (Dec 6, 2013)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> Language of Life said:
> 
> 
> > You do realize...swordsman have flying slashes in this manga right? Don't ya think it would be awfully misleading to show his bleeding cheek after a clash if it wasn't when he got the cut? Not to mention there was clearly no cut when Kizaru made the sword. and Kizaru moving/stopping mid track is better shown in my panel where the sword is no where to be found near Kizaru's face.
> ...


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## TrolonoaZoro (Dec 6, 2013)

Um... just because I take the time to prove your take on these matter as wrong it doesn't make me a unreasonable man.
This is not politics, there is no stand or view on things, I'm presenting cold hard facts. To hide under an umbrella of "you keep showing me wrong, so you're too much for me" is kind of silly. Just man up to the facts, I didn't think about the possibility of Kizaru being relevant because of the Vegapunk connection and I acknowledge that. That's what you do. 
And if you think that disagreement makes one unreasonable, then I don't understand how you could be on a forum, which are focus on discourse or just even live your life without thinking everyone around you are unreasonable on account that they don't agree with you. 
*if you're saying this because you're young and haven't got the pleasure of meeting people with different views on life, then I warn you to get rid of this mindset now*

This post makes you seem childish, honestly.


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## Language of Life (Dec 6, 2013)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> Um... just because I take the time to prove your take on these matter as wrong it doesn't make me a unreasonable man.
> This is not politics, there is no stand or view on things, I'm presenting cold hard facts. To hide under an umbrella of "you keep showing me wrong, so you're too much for me" is kind of silly. Just man up to the facts, I didn't think about the possibility of Kizaru being relevant because of the Vegapunk connection and I acknowledge that. That's what you do.
> And if you think that disagreement makes one unreasonable, then I don't understand how you could be on a forum, which are focus on discourse or just even live your life without thinking everyone around you are unreasonable on account that they don't agree with you.
> *if you're saying this because you're young and haven't got the pleasure of meeting people with different views on life, then I warn you to get rid of this mindset now*
> ...



My post was not childish, your just misunderstanding me. I was in no way insulting your ability to be reasonable but simply stating that there is no way i (specifically in this debate) can reason with you. We have yet to see anything on the same terms with the single exception of possible plot importance for Borsalino. Like i said we are debating on completely different but parallel  planes. There is no where we will intersect.

Also, you have not proven anything wrong.That is were or problem begins. You are debating under the assumption that everything your saying is fact. That Fuji must be physically stronger because he is a swordsman; that Kizaru was somehow cut by a flying slash, your opinions on Kizaru's light movement and lazers, and that plot has had nothing to do with Kizaru's portrayal on the points that i presented or almost everything we debated on. I vehemntly disagree with all of them, and you need to admit that they are only our personal perceptions of portrayal, our opinion on each characters feats and how they would match up in a fight, and that there is no real cold hard fact either you and i could present that would tell us which of the two would win in this fight. It's all perception/portrayal/opinions because nothing has been so concretely covered or consistantly shown to prove either of our opinions 100% correct.

There is nothing for me to concede, because you have not changed my perception on anything. Opinions, on both our sides, not at all cold hard facts. 

Im done though. Your just going to come and tell me that we are dealing in facts, hence why we are debating on two seperate planes and there being no sense in our debate continuing. Thats why i said we should just leave it. Parting with an agree to disagree mentality.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Dec 8, 2013)

Change of wording doesn't really change the meaning. Unreasonable/unable to reason still means the same. Anyways, let me take another look at our conv and see if what you say is true. 
"You are debating under the assumption that everything your saying is fact. That Fuji must be physically stronger because he is a swordsman"


TrolonoaZoro said:


> Interesting.
> I'm impress way more by Fujitora, personally. *He seems* like a more well rounded fighter than Kizaru, who comes off as too dependent on lasers. *I'm not doubting he's a monster physically but Fujitora's precedent automatically make me think he's in a higher position*





TrolonoaZoro said:


> Blade, Strength and speed *seem like are better for Fuji*. *except for the "blade" part, because *it's not about seems*, he's clearly above*





TrolonoaZoro said:


> Which is my point. *You would think *out of these two admirals the one who is in fact a swordsman should be better equipped no? Of course I gave him credit, I just pointed that Rayleigh was rusty and still got the best him. *minor cut, but it automatically tells you who's the best wielding a sword*
> 
> I understand. However the fact that Fuji relies on his swordsmanship a physical art, creates a precedent I think, and thus* makes me believe *that Fuji will definitely be the one with the upper hand in these situations.





TrolonoaZoro said:


> *it's just speculation* in my part. I'm just saying is clearly something you oughta take notice of.


Now you may notice a lack of me acting as if this was a fact. I mean, not once in our conversation did I refer to this as such. Which leaves us with a couple of options.
1.You were paying attention, forgot, and made up a completely different conv in your head.
2.You weren't paying to our discussion.
3.You're lying/troll. 

"that Kizaru was somehow cut by a flying slash" Somehow? as if the idea to be cut flying slashes is asinine? But okay, I provide you the proof and you just don't acknowledge it. But lets pay close attention now. 
 As Kizaru's body is teleporting, Rayleigh decides that he doesn't agree with his actions and caught him on the spot. The thing is, Kizaru's cut is on his left cheek, not on his right, where Rayleigh performed his attack.
Problem numero dos.  In the panel after, there is no sign of a cut. Look at when Kizaru is making his sword, no cut on his left cheek. (This pretty much settles the problem, but let me just double down on it. 
When Rayleigh and Kizaru clash, Ray's sword is milimeters away from Kizaru's left cheek.

So no cut prior to clash, and after clash Rayleigh's sword happens to be exactly where it needs to be to make the cut happen, and to top it off, "we see" Kizaru's cut for the first time? This is no interpretation here, no.
You don't get call out on this one because I could see how someone might miss it.

" your opinions on Kizaru's light movement and lazers and that plot has had nothing to do with Kizaru's portrayal on the points that i presented or almost everything we debated on" My opinion being that Kizaru's use of his fruit is not instantaneous, that it is presented as such in multiple occasions to just ignore it and that thus Fujitora could react to it appropriately. 
Now, I'm being a nice guy and providing you with an explanation as to why Kizaru can be both slow and extremely fast at the same time but, I don't have to.
Now before we going with this, I need you to understand what "plot" means on this case. You're saying "plot" as in "the story demands for an excuse of what we've come to know to be the case, in order to create an specific situation that the author demands" Now, here comes the thing.

 He uses it twice, and both time there is the charging particle effect. Seem to me like there is no plot in there. Usopp/Brook notice the light before Kizaru even starts to dematerialize. So that one is done. 

Lasers/literally post any panel where we see Kizaru performing the action and there is either a flash with no laser *meaning the attack is mid-way, meaning Kizaru is putting power behind yet nothing comes out)  But more importantly lets look at another top tier *I don't know if that's the right term in OL Power tier/ Marco is close to admiral level) can do AFTER Kizaru shoots his laser, which also happen to have the same effect as every other laser. So in this case it becomes a question of assuming that Kizaru is the second coming for speed because he has the light, it's well, just an assumption and you in fact need to provide with some very solid evidence against Kizaru's charging time for his lasers and then that Fuji is slower than it is usual for his level.

TLDR VER: Not opinions, facts. You either didn't pay attention, are unable to keep track of the conv or are a troll.


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## eyeknockout (Dec 8, 2013)

I don't see any of the new admirals being stronger than the old ones. I put fujitora slightly above marco

so kizaru exreme difficulty


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## mr sean66 (Dec 8, 2013)

There is no way kizaru would lose to him.......
He has the best logia in one peice. He has more solid feats than fujitora anyway.

The metoirs and gravity won't hurt kizaru  he has to be hit directly with a haki attack won't happen with kizarus speed and co0


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 8, 2013)

Aokiji isn't stronger than Kizaru so you're not one of the smart people


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 8, 2013)

Well scientifically speaking fujitora should take this since gravity destroys light but in onepiece terms kizaru would take this


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## Auzzie93 (Dec 8, 2013)

mr sean66 said:


> There is no way kizaru would lose to him.......
> He has the best logia in one peice. He has more solid feats than fujitora anyway.
> 
> The metoirs and gravity won't hurt kizaru  he has to be hit directly with a haki attack won't happen with *kizarus speed* and co0



Kizaru - "speed is weight"

Fujitora - "weight is gravity"

Fujitora wins extreme diff.


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## babaGAReeb (Dec 8, 2013)

can this kizaru destroy the universe?


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## J★J♥ (Dec 8, 2013)

babaGAReeb said:


> can this kizaru destroy the universe?



It might take him few months, but i cant see why he cant destroy planet or at least anything alive on a planet


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## Urouge (Dec 9, 2013)

Gilgamesh said:


> Aokiji isn't stronger than Kizaru so you're not one of the smart people



Don't where this shit is coming from seriously. Akainu and kizaru were hyped as monster even before joining the marines. I mean I personally think that they're equal like WB and roger were equal. Akainu is stronger than both of them by a small margin.


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## Vengeance (Dec 9, 2013)

Kizaru should take this imo.


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## tanman (Dec 9, 2013)

This Kizaru > Aokiji stuff is a little outdated. Just saying.


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## Cellar Door (Dec 9, 2013)

Kizaru. Meteors shouldn't bother Kizaru at all due to his intangibility (he can easily destroy them, too), and Fuji is yet to show the level of physical skill that allowed Kizaru to stalemate a man to was mentioned by Garp in the same breath as Whitebeard. Never even mind the general hype that Kizaru received when he actually faced Whitebeard and came out of that scuffle unfazed.


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## barreltheif (Dec 9, 2013)

Auzzie93 said:


> Kizaru - "speed is weight"
> 
> Fujitora - "weight is gravity"
> 
> Fujitora wins extreme diff.




Green Bull - "gravity is the curvature of spacetime" *stops time* *solos*


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## Urouge (Dec 9, 2013)

tanman said:


> This Kizaru > Aokiji stuff is a little outdated. Just saying.



Lol you're serious? There's way more people who believe that aokiji is stronger. I said that they were equal


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## RF (Dec 9, 2013)

Aokiji vs Kizaru is probably a toss-up


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Dec 9, 2013)

Why is this thread not locked? Fuji has fewer feats than Mihawk.


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## Kriemhild Gretchen (Dec 9, 2013)

From what we have seen Kizaru mid difficult.


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## Urouge (Dec 9, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Aokiji vs Kizaru is probably a toss-up



yeah thats what I've been saying for ages. I personally think that they're equal like roger and wb.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Dec 9, 2013)

Remember that guy who matched the undisputed strongest admiral for 10 days? 
Remember that who DIDN'T do that? Yeah? They're equalz lel
Okay, stay classy Ol.

Fuji's meteor shock would either caught Kizaru in the explosion. *The same way you can capture Caribou in a barrel, Kizaru is made of little light particle, this would debilitate his body and they have a history of being slow when getting together which would provide a nice opening* or he could just haki the meteor up forcing Kizaru to try to destroy/get away as soon as possible. To argue that they would be useless because "logia lol" it's kind of short sighted.


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## eyeknockout (Dec 9, 2013)

akainu >/= aokiji > kizaru > fujitora = green bull >/= old rayleigh


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## Captain Altintop (Dec 9, 2013)

Kizaru should take this very high tol extreme diff.


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