# How many top tier yonko commanders to defeat an admiral?



## Sufex (Jul 10, 2019)

we saw an injured akainu take on a (slightly injured) Marco, vista, crocodile, and the remaining WB commanders and they couldn’t defeat him. How many top tier YC’s can 1 admiral take?


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## barreltheif (Jul 10, 2019)

Depends on the commanders. Akainu took on 13 there.


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## Turrin (Jul 10, 2019)

Marco alone beats Fujitora

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## oiety (Jul 10, 2019)

Assuming Fujitora is the weakest admiral the answer is: a lot.

More than 2 at least, imo. Fujitora would still put out a win against a team of Katakuri and Marco, though probably at high diff.


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## MO (Jul 10, 2019)

3

Reactions: Like 2


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## CaptainCommander (Jul 10, 2019)

There's no such thing as a "top tier Yonko commander"

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## Phantom Thief (Jul 10, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> There's no such thing as a "top tier Yonko commander"


Relative to Yonko Commanders as their own subset. C'mon now

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## Exping (Jul 10, 2019)

I definitely see Marco killing Fujitora.



Jozu + Vista can beat fujitora 7/10 times


Logias are just harder to beat, they have the strongest DF so that's why Akainu can just shapeshift dodge but Fujitora is going to either physically dodge or block it with his sword which Jozu can easily overpower him.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 10, 2019)

4


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## Grinningfox (Jul 10, 2019)

3 bare minimum


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## Corax (Jul 11, 2019)

Akainu stopped 13 (including FM and YC3). Hard to tell. May be all 4 FM can give him high diff,if Beckman is really not far away from Shanks they might beat him.


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## Dunno (Jul 11, 2019)

Depends on which ones. I could see Beckman and Lafitte beating Fujitora, but I couldn't see Katakuri, Smoothie, Cracker, Jozu and Yasopp doing it.


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## Seraphoenix (Jul 11, 2019)

Sufex said:


> we saw an injured akainu take on a (slightly injured) Marco, vista, crocodile, and the remaining WB commanders and they couldn’t defeat him. How many top tier YC’s can 1 admiral take?


Akainu and *half the navy soldiers* took on the WB remnants. Even then, he could only defeat Curiel.

Before this Akainu failed to get past *Marco alone* while Ace was giving a 20 min death speech.

To answer your question it's 50/50 if it comes to FM's. add a commander in and the admiral loses. I am being generous here btw. People like Beckmann beat an admiral consistently.

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 11, 2019)

Depends on the Admiral and which Yonkou commanders. 

The logia trio will have a easier time do to logia one shot hax and defenses. 

So for Aokiji it would take like 4 katakuris I would imagine. 

For the lesser commanders you would need a lot more. Like 8 Jack's or something.


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## Geralt-Singh (Jul 11, 2019)

A lot

Sakazuki got immediatly back up after taking a gura punch to the skull and wasn't even seriously injured after taking an island splitting earthquake punch, he also no selled haki attacks from Marco/Vista

Marco's little kicks aren't doing shit to them, same goes for Katakuri's and the others (Beckman *might* be the only exception though, he'd give them mid diff alone maybe)


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## Red Admiral (Jul 11, 2019)

for Fujitora and Green Bull ... 2 or 3 , YC 1 is enough
for Logia admirals ... 3 or 4 , YC 1 is enough


YC 1 = Katakuri 

not like of Marco or god forbid Ben Beckman


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## RayanOO (Jul 11, 2019)

I think that a set of 3YC can do it extreme diff : King, Queen and Jack can do it. Kata smoothie and cracker can do it, and Marco jozu and Vista can do it.

I only see Kaido needing a set of 3 FM  : Marco, King and Kata for exemple.

I don't think that Kaido will be beaten by a force stronger than 3 FM. I think it will be around that might to beat him or stall him.

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## Gotenks92 (Jul 11, 2019)

Sufex said:


> we saw an injured akainu take on a (slightly injured) Marco, vista, crocodile, and the remaining WB commanders and they couldn’t defeat him. How many top tier YC’s can 1 admiral take?


It all depends on how strong the commander is anyway 2 are enough for the new admirals I am not sure about the old 3 especially Akainu and Aokiji they are beasts

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## Sengoku (Jul 11, 2019)

The idea that an old non-prime Garp pimpslapped Marco down so hard with just 1 hit truly shows you how strong an admiral could be. YC1 = Admiral is outrageous and silly.

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## Exping (Jul 11, 2019)

Sengoku said:


> The idea that an old non-prime Garp pimpslapped Marco down so hard with just 1 hit truly shows you how strong an admiral could be. YC1 = Admiral is outrageous and silly.



yea just like marco kicked aokiji and kizaru down. And how Jozu knocked Aokiji down

In all 4 of these scenarios they were all focused on something else so it was a blindside.(BECAUSE ITS A WAR NOT A 1v1)Marco was focused on saving Ace while regenerating from all those bullets. But did Marco even feel anything from Garp's Punch? He got straight back up light aokiji and kizaru did.

Also who knows if non prime garp is stronger or weaker than the admirals at marineford.
Doesn't say anything at all


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## Gotenks92 (Jul 11, 2019)

Exping said:


> In all 4 of these scenarios they were all focused on something else so it was a blindside.(BECAUSE ITS A WAR NOT A 1v1)Marco was focused on saving Ace while regenerating from all those bullets.


Nope, Garp was sitting next to Ace


Exping said:


> But did Marco even feel anything from Garp's Punch?



Nah he definitely felt that look at his cheek and Garp drove him out of his Phoenix form


Exping said:


> Also who knows if non prime garp is stronger or weaker than the admirals at marineford.
> Doesn't say anything at all


This is true, some people think Garp is barely above the likes of Katakuri lol

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## Sengoku (Jul 11, 2019)

Exping said:


> In all 4 of these scenarios they were all focused on something else so it was a blindside.(BECAUSE ITS A WAR NOT A 1v1)Marco was focused on saving Ace while regenerating from all those bullets.



Hmmm that is a huge claim.

Marco was focused on saving Ace and was blindsided? Let's see the facts here:


As seen here, Marco's vision encompasses Ace, Sengoku, and Garp shown by the red circles.
Next, we see that Marco reacted to Garp's punch indicated by the purple circle.
So no, Marco wasn't blindsided. He literally wasn't fast enough to dodge non-prime Garp's fist.



> But did Marco even feel anything from Garp's Punch?



He got bruised there and Garp effectively put a complete halt to Marco's plan on saving Ace. Ace should have asked Marco, "Bruh. Are you going to give up just like that?". Yeah, uh Marco did just that. 




> Also who knows if non prime garp is stronger or weaker than the admirals at marineford.
> Doesn't say anything at all


Basically it boils down to this. If Garp was below admiral level then surely YC1 = Admiral is unanimously wrong, right?
And if Garp was admiral, then it just proves YC1 = Admiral is and once again, wrong.



> yea just like marco kicked aokiji and kizaru down.



You are also wrong that the attack from Marco done on Kizaru was a blindsided assault:



As shown above, Kizaru saw Marco coming (who knew?). So no, it wasn't blindsided like you suggested. And just like any good top tier fighter would do, Kizaru parried/blocked his kick with his arm as indicated by the red circle. And during this whole ordeal, Kizaru was mocking him and Marco admitting his own kick wasn't effective at all.

The only one that was truly a blindsided attack was when Marco attacked Aokiji:


Here we see Aokiji focusing on Luffy while Hancock is throwing a tantrum. Literally the next panel we see here is Marco coming from the side and blindsided him. THAT is what being blindsided is.

Next chapter shows Aokiji all fine and dandy. In fact, he went up against someone stronger and a worse threat, Whitebeard:





> And how Jozu knocked Aokiji down



Again, this wasn't a blindsided attack:


As indicated by the blue circles, Kuzan was already in the process of freezing his body along with his quote, "Looks like you aren't focused."

But was this an actual "defeat" for Kuzan's side? Nooooope. Because in the next chapter:

*Spoiler*: __ 







His entire body -> frozen. His arm -> torn off. His status -> out of the war. And not a single blemish on Kuzan's iced cold face of his.

You know what this fight reminds me of? This:

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## Exping (Jul 11, 2019)

Sengoku said:


> Hmmm that is a huge claim.
> 
> Marco was focused on saving Ace and was blindsided? Let's see the facts here:
> 
> ...



okay thanks for uploading the panels, my bad using the word blind side. not all scenarios were blind side, but they were all focused on something else and not on their direct opponent.


Honestly Marco probably thought garp was just going to sit there and not interfere because of the relationship between him and Ace, and was only focusing on Sengoku. We saw Garp himself clinching his fist and thinking about it when marco was flying there.

If Marco a phoenix flying at full speed towards Ace and Garp suddenly decides "Screw it, I'm with the marines" and  jumps forward to stop Marco its harder to REACT to than if Marco was on standstill and Garp comes at him. Don't think it was a speed difference there between NON prime garp and Marco, Just the scenario that they were in


- Who knows? I don't remember if he had the keys or not but Maybe Marco realized he is not the main character of the series and does not have the keys to unlock Ace's handcuffs..He got right back up from the punch confused look on his face whether it was because Garp was too fast for him (unlikely) or Garp decided to step in after thinking hardly about it.( I interpreted it as that but maybe you're right. Garp could be way faster than Marco which means non prime garp speed >>> Marco somewhat = kizaru)



I thought Jozu did blindside aokiji? then Jozu distracted himself and aokiji froze him. Aokiji's DF is a perect counter to Jozu style of fighting and his Diamond fruit in general.


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## Sengoku (Jul 11, 2019)

Exping said:


> Honestly Marco probably thought garp was just going to sit there and not interfere because of the relationship between him and Ace, and was only focusing on Sengoku. We saw Garp himself clinching his fist and thinking about it when marco was flying there.



Well, he was probably focusing both but he definitely saw Garp going after him indicated by the purple circle I drew earlier. And I highly doubt it because Oda would have drew some indication to this relationship thought. He did, though, with Luffy.



> If Marco a phoenix flying at full speed towards Ace and Garp suddenly decides "Screw it, I'm with the marines" and  jumps forward to stop Marco its harder to REACT to than if Marco was on standstill and Garp comes at him. Don't think it was a speed difference there between NON prime garp and Marco, Just the scenario that they were in



He was flying towards all 3 of them. You are excluding Sengoku for some reason. And that doesn't explain the fact that Marco did react to Garp but he wasn't fast enough to dodge his punch. This is one of the reasons what separates Marco from the other admirals. That is, the admirals would likely have calculated many "what-if" scenarios during the assault. A prime example would be Marco diving towards Kizaru, Kizaru reacted by blocking instead of attacking. It is the same scenario like with the whole Garp situation. Admirals know how to deal with fast-break situations.



> - Who knows? I don't remember if he had the keys or not but Maybe Marco realized he is not the main character of the series and does not have the keys to unlock Ace's handcuffs..



Again, this is a flaw from Marco's part. He basically attacked knowingly that there are two admiral-leveled fighters on the platform with Ace. So his chances of even saving Ace is slim if not nigh-impossible. In addition, to stack his odds even further, Ace is sea-stone bounded to the platform. Is he going to take the platform with him? Well, that is going to slow down his speed but this will also invite Sengoku and Garp to have something to grab on if they were to get a hold of the platform as they are flying away.
Essentially, Marco did not execute his plan well and he reaped the consequences from it.



> He got right back up from the punch confused look on his face whether it was because Garp was too fast for him (unlikely) or Garp decided to step in after thinking hardly about it.( I interpreted it as that but maybe you're right. Garp could be way faster than Marco which means non prime garp speed >>> Marco somewhat = kizaru)



Based on the kick Marco delivered on Kizaru? Well, an argument could be made that Kizaru blocked it. He didn't have to outpace Marco or run away. Kizaru simply blocked it and played mind games with him. Not only that, there were also instances where Marco truly believed that he could outspeed Kizaru but only to get tagged from behind via pew pew.



> I thought Jozu did blindside aokiji? then Jozu distracted himself and aokiji froze him. Aokiji's DF is a perect counter to Jozu style of fighting and his Diamond fruit in general.



No, not according to the manga, anyway. Maybe you are using the anime as a reference? I will check tomorrow unless you want to check it for me now. (use manga).


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## Sufex (Jul 11, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Marco alone beats Fujitora




Excuse me what? How?

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## Turrin (Jul 11, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Excuse me what? How?


He fought evenly with stronger admirals


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 11, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He fought evenly with stronger admirals



How do you define fought? 

The only commander that actually fought a Admiral was jozu and he lost badly. 

Marco used his body to shield a couple attacks from akainu. Attacked akainu doing nothing to him along with Vista, attacked Aokiji doing nothing to him, and attacked kizaru doing nothing to him. 

None of those are fights if that's what you consider a fight then Jinbei fought big mom, and is also Admiral level because he did just as good as Marco did In his little exchanges with the admirals.

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## CaptainCommander (Jul 11, 2019)

Sengoku said:


> The idea that an old non-prime Garp pimpslapped Marco down so hard with just 1 hit truly shows you how strong an admiral could be. YC1 = Admiral is outrageous and silly.



What are you smoking to believe those punks can hold a candle to the Hero of the Marines??


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## MO (Jul 11, 2019)

Sengoku said:


> Hmmm that is a huge claim.
> 
> Marco was focused on saving Ace and was blindsided? Let's see the facts here:
> 
> ...


Aokiji definitely blindsided jozu. There is no indication aokiji was already freezing his body before jozu turn away.


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## barreltheif (Jul 11, 2019)

MO said:


> Aokiji definitely blindsided jozu. There is no indication aokiji was already freezing his body before jozu turn away.



He didn't blindside Jozu. If we're having a boxing match and I turn around in the middle and you knock me out, you didn't blindside me. Getting blindsided implies you didn't know where your opponent was.

Jozu, by contrast, definitely blindsided Aokiji.


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## MO (Jul 11, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> He didn't blindside Jozu. If we're having a boxing match and I turn around in the middle and you knock me out, you didn't blindside me. Getting blindsided implies you didn't know where your opponent was.
> 
> Jozu, by contrast, definitely blindsided Aokiji.


You're right. Aokiji took him down while he was distracted than.


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## barreltheif (Jul 11, 2019)

MO said:


> You're right. Aokiji took him down while he was distracted than.



Yes, but it's completely Jozu's fault that he was distracted. It's not like someone interfered their fight. Marco wasn't even injured or in trouble. Jozu got randomly turned around mid-fight.


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## Turrin (Jul 11, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> How do you define fought?
> 
> The only commander that actually fought a Admiral was jozu and he lost badly.
> 
> ...


Marco casually shielded an attack from Kizaru meant for WB and the blew him back. Nether sustaining damage which is meant to show equality. Kizaru even says that their battle was settle by Marco split second loss of concentration not a difference in strength, which also implies Kizaru saw Marco if not equal to him close enough:

WB was also confident in leaving Jozu to fight Aokiji, so you really think he’d leave one of his sons completely outclassed and waiting to die:

Vista was also comfortable fighting Mihawk to a stand still; who I’d consider at least around the level of the color Trio:

These show that the WB commanders are close to the color trio, albeit weaker, and Marco as first mate is the closest. Fujitora is also close to the color trio but ultimately imo weaker; so matching him up against Marco should be a good fight; now add in 2 years for Marco to improve and I’m leaning towards Marco to win.


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## A Optimistic (Jul 11, 2019)

Well we saw that Marco and Vista together couldn't touch Akainu. So I wouldn't be surprised if every Yonkou commander together still couldn't touch him.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 11, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Marco casually shielded an attack from Kizaru meant for WB and the blew him back. Nether sustaining damage which is meant to show equality. Kizaru even says that their battle was settle by Marco split second loss of concentration not a difference in strength, which also implies Kizaru saw Marco if not equal to him close enough:
> 
> WB was also confident in leaving Jozu to fight Aokiji, so you really think he’d leave one of his sons completely outclassed and waiting to die:
> 
> ...



One exchange of blows doesn't equate equality. Sabo not equal or even on the same level as Fujitora just because they fought for a little bit without either side getting fucked up.

WB doesn't have much choice in the matter Aokiji was in his way and he needed to move forward. Marco sent Vista agasint Mihawk the man who use to fight with yonkou shanks. We know even a heavily nerfed big mom can destroy kaidous top commanders in a test of strength which is the beast pirates Forte due to them all being zoan types. Vistas no threat to mihawk even if you think mihawk is on a similar level to a super nerfed big mom(not saying you think that) just pointing out the huge difference between a yonkou tier level fighter and a yonkou Commander. So unless you think Vista could like low diff Queen or something a serious mihawk beats him quite easily. 

Marco has a very powerful defensive fruit but his offense is trash. I have seen nothing from him that makes me think he can overpower fujis full power gravity. Hes just going to toss him around until his regen gives out IMO. Fujis probably the worst match up for Marco besides maybe Aokiji out of the admirals as well. His mobility means squat against a COO specialist with island level pin point AOE.

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## Beast (Jul 11, 2019)

Depends on King and Ben because we haven’t seen them, but I would say 2 Marcos because of regen but 3 FM to beat an admiral.


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## CaptainCommander (Jul 11, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> Depends on King and Ben because we haven’t seen them, but I would say 2 Marcos because of regen but 3 FM to beat an admiral.



Benn made Kizaru shit himself and King sent Meme into the sea.

It's gonna be awesome when they fight serious.


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## Sengoku (Jul 11, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> What are you smoking to believe those punks can hold a candle to the Hero of the Marines??



The fuck are you even on about? lol I'm confused.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 12, 2019)

Sengoku said:


> The fuck are you even on about? lol I'm confused.



Hes saying Garp>C3


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## Turrin (Jul 12, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> One exchange of blows doesn't equate equality. Sabo not equal or even on the same level as Fujitora just because they fought for a little bit without either side getting fucked up.
> 
> WB doesn't have much choice in the matter Aokiji was in his way and he needed to move forward. Marco sent Vista agasint Mihawk the man who use to fight with yonkou shanks. We know even a heavily nerfed big mom can destroy kaidous top commanders in a test of strength which is the beast pirates Forte due to them all being zoan types. Vistas no threat to mihawk even if you think mihawk is on a similar level to a super nerfed big mom(not saying you think that) just pointing out the huge difference between a yonkou tier level fighter and a yonkou Commander. So unless you think Vista could like low diff Queen or something a serious mihawk beats him quite easily.
> 
> Marco has a very powerful defensive fruit but his offense is trash. I have seen nothing from him that makes me think he can overpower fujis full power gravity. Hes just going to toss him around until his regen gives out IMO. Fujis probably the worst match up for Marco besides maybe Aokiji out of the admirals as well. His mobility means squat against a COO specialist with island level pin point AOE.


If that’s all we have to go on it does...

There is a difference between WB having no choice but to leave Jozu against a much stronger enemy; and him confidently trusting Jozu to handle the situation. The scene was clearly played off as the latter. Additionally Jozu actually did handle Aokiji until he got distract by WB coughing blood and Marco

You assume his offense is trash because he was fighting Admirals, by that logic Kizaru offense is trash because he couldn’t do anything to Marco. Both Marco and the Admirals have high level defensive fruits and Haki, so it’s hard to gauge offense. 

If you mean Fujitora sinking him with gravity even DR Zoro negged that shit; so I don’t think that is some Op ability


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If that’s all we have to go on it does...



The Admirals have tons of feats, hype, and portrayal to go off of so it's not all we have to go on.



> There is a difference between WB having no choice but to leave Jozu against a much stronger enemy; and him confidently trusting Jozu to handle the situation. The scene was clearly played off as the latter. Additionally Jozu actually did handle Aokiji until he got distract by WB coughing blood and Marco



I'm sure whitebeard was confident he could win the war what was the result? His crew got destroyed and the only relevant fighter on the WG side That was significantly injuried was Akainu, and that's with Garp, Sengoku, and mihawk doing jack shit for the majority of the war.

I'm sure Marco thought he could take on blackbeard. What happend he got obliterated.

Whitebeards confidence doesn't override the admirals superior feats and portrayal over the commanders. Jozu fought Aokiji off panel for 1 chapter. Franky fought Luffy for a chapter back in the day so did usopp. Madara fought the 5 kages for like half a year and we both know how they actually stack up to him.

If you look at it in a vacuum sure Jozu looks pretty good vs aokiji but we have more then that to go off of. Just looking in a vacuum Jinbei can tango with queen but in fact Queen would more then likely kick Jinbeis ass.



> You assume his offense is trash



His offense is trash because his feats are trash.

Kicks kizaru does shit.
Kicks Aokiji for free does shit.
Slashes at Akainu with Vista and can't even touch his real body.

Akainu can get back up from a free quake fist to the back of the head. Aokiji and Akainu fought for 10 days. Marcos kicks aren't doing shit to them.



> because he was fighting Admirals



We are discussing the admirals so of course I am comparing his offense relative to the admirals. In relation to say Sanji I'm sure Marcos offense is leaps and bounds more impressive.



> by that logic Kizaru offense is trash because he couldn’t do anything to Marco.



You could argue that but it would be silly as kizaru hurt whitebeard with zero effort.

And technically he did do something to Marco as his fruit doesn't negate attacks or block damage it just heals whatever damage he takes.



> Both Marco and the Admirals have high level defensive fruits and Haki, so it’s hard to gauge offense.



Not very hard at all. The C3 have some of the highest offensive abilitys in the Manga there destructive feats and the ease at which they can take out high level opponents show this.





> If you mean Fujitora sinking him with gravity even DR Zoro negged that shit; so I don’t think that is some Op ability



No I mean Fujitora using the gravity force it takes to lift up all the rubble in Dressrosa in smashing it down on Marco as he trys to fly towards him.

Not the little fodder attack he used agasint Zoro which was weaker then what he used agasint Doflamingos henchmen when he was first introduced.


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## Unicornsilovethem (Jul 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He fought evenly


No.



> with stronger admirals


No.


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## Turrin (Jul 12, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> The Admirals have tons of feats, hype, and portrayal to go off of so it's not all we have to go on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. It’s all we have to go off when talking about the WB Commanders

2. There’s a difference in losing a war where many factors come into play; and being unaware of his own crew members strength in relation to an Admirals 

3. BB was an enemy of unknown strength the Admirals are very known 

4. What superior feats? 

5. So then kizaru offense is also trash since it couldn’t do anything to Marco

6. So your giving Fujitora a feat he never showed; never showed the ability to use a gravity push downwards at that magnitude.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. It’s all we have to go off when talking about the WB Commanders



Is it though?

The Whitebeard pirates were obliterated by Black-beard and his crew. It wasen't a even fight Oda made sure to emphasis that they not only lost but lost badly. Blackbeard and his boys ran away from Akainu without a second thought. This is consistent with Big moms kids stating they cant stop her, big mom shitting on queen and Kaidou shitting on luffy. A barley Yonkou level BB made a joke out of Marco. 

The Yonkou have had a balance between there forces for many years despite big mom and kaidous power mongering. The performances of other Yonkou commanders indirectly reflect on others. As Big Mom made a joke out of Queen in a direct show of strength it stands to reason Big Mom would also make a joke of Smoothie in a direct show of strength if not more so given Queen the one with the ancient zoan that boosts his physical stats. Thats of course not to say all commanders are equal matchups and ability do matter but again Queen has a ancient zoan devil fruit he is clearly all about raw power and endurance. If Big mom can make a joke out of him in his own specialty it stands to reason the majority of other commanders wouldent fair much better in a direct confrontation(Ability matchups aside).

Of course you could argue that Marco, and white-beards other commanders are special but if WB was special(WSM) and his commanders were special(vastly stronger then 2 other yonkous crews commanders). Then that means the balance between the yonkou was actually not true and WB was just being nice but that also doesnt go in line with Blackbeard making marco his bitch. Which is consistent with what a yonkou level fighter would do to a FM level fighter.




> 2. There’s a difference in losing a war where many factors come into play; and being unaware of his own crew members strength in relation to an Admirals



He didnt just lose he got completely shit on. War wasent anywhere near close. 



> 3. BB was an enemy of unknown strength the Admirals are very known



Unknown to who? Marco lived with blackbeard for decades, saw him in action before and during the war, he knew he took out Ace, he knows what white-beards quake fruit can do. Marco knows more about BB then WB does the admirals. Far as we know WB never even seen any of the admirals fight. 



> 4. What superior feats?



Admirals are Superior to Marco in almost every metric besides Endurance(Due to regen) and mobility(Marco can freely fly in the air). The mobility part is pretty irrelevant as all the Admirals have massive AOE attacks and marco is a CQC fighter so him flying in the air is not going to do much. In terms of speed both Kizaru and Aokiji have better speed feats then he does. Akainu/Fuji dont really have any noteworthy speed feats but scalling off of there fellow admirals marcos speed wont be a issue.







> 5. So then kizaru offense is also trash since it couldn’t do anything to Marco



Looks like it did something here? 








> 6. So your giving Fujitora a feat he never showed; never showed the ability to use a gravity push downwards at that magnitude.





Your trolling right?

Fuji can manipulate gravity?  You know what gravity is right? That the planet has its own gravity right?

Are you suggesting that Fujitora can overpower the planets gravity and lift a fuck ton of rubble upwards but somehow can't use a similar level of gravity in the opposite direction you know the direction that the earths gravity is actually going towards because he hasen't shown it yet? 

What next i can't say King can punch Smoker because he hasent shown haki yet or been stated to be able to use it. 

But if you want we can play this game. 

Fujitora summons a meteor down from space and then uses his gravity UPWARDS cause thats for some reason stronger, and uses it to slam marco straight into the meteor thats falling down.

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## Corax (Jul 12, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Is it though?
> Fujitora summons a meteor down from space and then uses his gravity UPWARDS cause thats for some reason stronger, and uses it to slam marco straight into the meteor thats falling down.


Why to bother himself like that?Simply throwing him in the sea and pushing a bit will be enough as Marco is a DF user. Not sure people are trolling or serious if they think that Marco=Admiral.


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## Turrin (Jul 12, 2019)

@Donquixote Doflamingo 

1. Your comparing BB in P1 to TS BB, which isn’t fair 

2. I don’t agree with comparing YC that way. Ace did better at holding off a serious Akainu then Queen did against Mom; that tells me Ace >> Queen; and by proxy the rest of the WB commanders are stronger then the average Commander 

3. Admirals are famous Marines that WB knows the level they are on; BB was an up and comer whose power kept increasing. Considering even the Gorosei though Marco could stop BB, it seems more like BB was underestimated then Marco overestimating himself 

4. Marco reacted to Kizaru speed and attack casually; so no they don’t have better speed feats. 

5. When he was distracted, doesn’t count 

6. I’m suggesting that Fujitora ate a magical fruit that doesn’t abide by the confines of how gravity works in science; maybe he is lowering the gravity of these objects somehow; we don’t know


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Donquixote Doflamingo
> 
> 1. Your comparing BB in P1 to TS BB, which isn’t fair
> 
> ...



1. More like middle of the time-skip. So yea BB was stronger then he was at marineford but not as strong as he is currently. Either way the BB that beat Marcos ass is with almost 100 percent certainty weaker then Big mom.

2. Why not? It was stated that the yonkou have a balance no one yonkou not even WB who was the WSM stood ahead of the others. If WB crew was so special it would of been noted in the manga and it never has been. Akainu did way more damage to Ace then big mom did to queen. Ace is dead and queen is perfectly fine as of the current chapter in case you forgot.

3. Being Famous gives you a accurate gauge of someones power how exactly? It clearly doesnt since WB and his forces were shitted on by 3 admirals. Of course marco unnderestimated BB thats kind of the point just like WB underestimated the WG thinkings he wouldent get his ass kicked.

4. Marco reacted to Kizarus long range laser attack ok? A army of fodder reacted to Madaras Majestic destroyer Flame do they all get Madara level combat speed now. Kizaru is light speed so he goes without saying but this feat from Aokiji shits on anything marco has done speed wise.


Aokiji jumps directly in front of the WSM face and hits him with ice ball he then engages him again WB stabs him but fails due to Aokiji manipulating his body so he doesnt actually get stabbed.

So whats better completely outclassing the WSM in combat speed or intercepting a long range attack from kizaru that everyone on marineford saw coming.

5. Aokiji was distracted and Marco did shit to him. Akainu was distracted and Marco did shit to him. So admirals can hurt marco when hes distracted. Marco can't hurt admirals when they are distracted. Sounds like a +1 for the admirals then.

6. Doesn't matter if we don't know the exact mechanics of it. You would have a point if we only saw Fujitora manipulate gravity in one direction but thats not the case. He can lift huge amounts of derbies into the sky, he can push down meteors from space, and can even send gravity horizontal with his blade swings. So really you are just nitpicking for no reason. Eitherway its not something worth debating on as it literally doesnt matter which direction fujis gravity is stronger in. Whichever direction works best for him he will use it so who cares.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 12, 2019)

Marco is close to the level of the Admirals in PT 1 Sans Akainu think WB was much stronger than the Admirals like in another stratosphere and Marco is his FM so it would suffice that Marco is enough to take on even the stronger admirals if not down right defeat some of the weaker ones like Fujitora whom is at best around the level of Ace who wasn’t even his FM the WB crew took on the entire Navy let alone the color trio including Akainu so it depends and I’m pretty sure Shanks whom is close to WB crew could possibly do the same .


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 12, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Fujitora whom is at best around the level of Ace





Eliyua23 said:


> the WB crew took on the entire Navy


And that sure ended well for the WB Pirates.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Turrin (Jul 12, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. More like middle of the time-skip. So yea BB was stronger then he was at marineford but not as strong as he is currently. Either way the BB that beat Marcos ass is with almost 100 percent certainty weaker then Big mom.
> 
> 2. Why not? It was stated that the yonkou have a balance no one yonkou not even WB who was the WSM stood ahead of the others. If WB crew was so special it would of been noted in the manga and it never has been. Akainu did way more damage to Ace then big mom did to queen. Ace is dead and queen is perfectly fine as of the current chapter in case you forgot.
> 
> ...



1. I disagree I place both TS Teach and Akainu above Mom

2. The Yonko are balanced not equals 

3. Only when Ace threw himself no between Akainu and Luffy, before then Ace did better then Queen 

4. If Kizaru is light speed so are his lasers which Marco casually reacted to; and he also easily lands his kick on him. Aokiji feat holds no relevance to Marco

5. When did Marco attack a distracted admiral; the only time an admiral was attacked while distracted is with Jozu

6. So assuming Fujitora can do this what stops him from beating Kaidou or the other Admirals this way?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. I disagree I place both TS Teach and Akainu above Mom
> 
> 2. The Yonko are balanced not equals
> 
> ...



1. Teach is a dynamic charcter(unlike big mom) he is going to continue to gain strength as he has been since his introduction, so I highly doubt a year ago he was stronger then big mom. Current teach perhaps he is. Impossible to say obviously without flashback feats from BB but given a gradual increase in power it makes sense to me. Teach should be fighting with shanks soon(who I also rate above Big mom) and I assume he will win without cheating but you never know. Eitherway BB might be slightly stronger then big mom a year ago, akainu as well but not in the physical department that's for sure. Big mom man handled queen without any Haki or devil fruit. Perhaps I'm underestimating akainu and BB but at the very least I think they would both need to at least use Haki to fodderize queen in a physical confrontation.

2. What's balanced about Whitebeard being the WSM and his commanders being head and tails above kaidou and big mom's commanders? Doesn't sound very balanced? Unless your talking some YUYU Hakushow Three Kings balance, where Raizen was actually a lot stronger then the other two but he couldn't take them out without the other king beating him in a weakened state. If oda wanted us to think something like that was the case he would of implied it by now. Which he really hasn't done in the Manga, sbs, or databooks which he easily could of done.

3. Getting his hand roasted is not really doing better then Queen. Big mom's first attack didn't even really hurt queen much he was still talking smack until she started giving him the Mario treatment(which he quickly recovered from). Regardless comparing how badly two people with different skill sets got there ass kicked by two people who also have two completely different skill sets using no where near there full powers is a silly motion to begin with tbh.

4. Apoo reacted to Kizarus light to not super impressed XD. 

Kizaru jumps in the sky and shines his giant light Beacon for everyone to see everyone had plenty of time to react. In no universe is reacting to a delayed attack from kizaru from long range more impressive then outmanuvering the World's Strongest man twice. Who by the way also reacted to Kizarus attack just fine he just outright ignored it as shown in the panel.

5. 

Sneak attack by Marco from the sky.



Kizaru trys to go for luffy but whitebeard stops him but fails to actually do any damage. Whitebeard and kizaru may have already been fighting so that's on kizaru if they were but WB still failed to hurt him even with kizaru not knowing he was there or kizaru just outright ignoring him, eitherway bad look for WB




Sneak attack from Vista and Marco as he try to finish off ace. Soon after WB comes from behind and smashes his head in don't think I need to post that panel everyone remembers how that went down.

6. Kaidou face tanks a meteor with Zero damage. The admirals either destroy the meteor or logia hax to ignore it. If you mean specifically deal with the gravity itself. Kaidou just turns into a dragon and fires off his breath attacks. Fujitora defending himself from kaidous attacks while also using enough gravity to restrain/attack him would be quite difficult espicailly given his durability no half assed attacks are doing shit to kaidou, and if it comes to a endurance contest I'm going to go with kaidou. As for the other admirals they do a similar thing it will be just a lot harder as kaidou is physically superior to all the admirals. Im no scientist so I have no idea how strong gravity would effect light beams but Kizarus arguably the fastest dude on the planet I'm sure he can work something out, akainu given his feats on punk hazard I'm positive has awakening. He just causes giant eruptions to overpower/disrupt Fujitoras gravity and once akainu gets in cqc with fujitora it won't be as easy to use his aoe to hurt him. He's of course a logia with probably better coa then fuji given the fact fuji is coo inclined so hurting akainu is going to be almost as hard as hurting kaidou. Fuji would have the easiest time agasint aokiji but the same logia problem exists so he will need to get in close to effectively hit him with a Coa infused attack to deal damage which leaves him open to counter attack.

Of course plot Aside fuji can just throw them in the water  he won't do that though cause reasons.


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## Beast (Jul 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. I disagree I place both TS Teach and Akainu above Mom
> 
> 
> 5. When did Marco attack a distracted admiral; the only time an admiral was attacked while distracted is with Jozu


tou think the BB that beat Marco a year ago is stronger than current BM?

Selective memory at its best, Marco kick aside Aokiji while he was distracted but did zero damage and Marco plus Vista against Akainu.


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## Gledania (Jul 12, 2019)

3.

5 for a yonko


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 12, 2019)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> And that sure ended well for the WB Pirates.



What’s so funny Sabo is about the same level as Ace and was able to match him 

Yeah but they made it a hell of a battle


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 12, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Sabo is about the same level as Ace and was able to match him and was able to match him


So Ace = Sabo = Fujitora? What’s next? Curiel > Green Bull?


Eliyua23 said:


> Yeah but they made it a hell of a battle


Let’s see...
- WB and Ace died
- Jozu was frozen solid and lost an arm
- Marco (wonder why Kizaru didn’t kill him when he got cuffed with Seastone?) and Vista were fighting a losing battle trying to survive, and if Shanks and his crew hadn’t showed up, they would all be dead right now.

As for the Marines:
- Akainu was injured but still strong enough to keep fighting
- Aokiji was fine
- Kizaru was fine
- Garp and Sengoku were fine
- Mihawk and most of the Warlords were fine.

It was a decisive win for the Marines.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Izaya X (Jul 12, 2019)

4 i guess or maybe 5


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 12, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> What’s so funny Sabo is about the same level as Ace and was able to match him
> 
> Yeah but they made it a hell of a battle



Sabo would destroy Ace worse then teach did.


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## Turrin (Jul 12, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Teach is a dynamic charcter(unlike big mom) he is going to continue to gain strength as he has been since his introduction, so I highly doubt a year ago he was stronger then big mom. Current teach perhaps he is. Impossible to say obviously without flashback feats from BB but given a gradual increase in power it makes sense to me. Teach should be fighting with shanks soon(who I also rate above Big mom) and I assume he will win without cheating but you never know. Eitherway BB might be slightly stronger then big mom a year ago, akainu as well but not in the physical department that's for sure. Big mom man handled queen without any Haki or devil fruit. Perhaps I'm underestimating akainu and BB but at the very least I think they would both need to at least use Haki to fodderize queen in a physical confrontation.
> 
> 2. What's balanced about Whitebeard being the WSM and his commanders being head and tails above kaidou and big mom's commanders? Doesn't sound very balanced? Unless your talking some YUYU Hakushow Three Kings balance, where Raizen was actually a lot stronger then the other two but he couldn't take them out without the other king beating him in a weakened state. If oda wanted us to think something like that was the case he would of implied it by now. Which he really hasn't done in the Manga, sbs, or databooks which he easily could of done.
> 
> ...



1. I think your underestimating BB and Akainu; on BB end he nearly snapped Ace Y2C neck in a single strike back in mid P1; and Akainu stopped WB from lifting his bisento with his foot. 

2. Yes it’s YuYu Rules; and Luffy being declared a Yonko even though he didn’t defeat Big Mom and only weakened her supports that idea. The other thing to consider is that the resources of the Yonko aren’t equal WB commanders are stronger but he doesn’t have entire army of Smile people or Homies like Kaidou and Mom. 

3. Dude Ace actually reacted to Akainu and blocked the brunt of his attack, only getting his hand burned because of their DF types; while Queen couldn’t react or do anything and just got smashed into the ground. And this is an exhausted, malnourished, and beat up Ace accomplishing this against a bloodlusted Akainu using his fruit; in comparison to Queen who got smashed Mom mindless and just using physical strength. Your being dishonest if you don’t acknowledge that Ace did better.

4. So then that just means Kizaru light isn’t that fast and Kizaru can’t be scaled to light speed 

5. I wouldn’t count Luffy as a real distract for someone at that leve

6. I don’t see how any of these characters are attacking Fujitora if they can’t move


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. I think your underestimating BB and Akainu; on BB end he nearly snapped Ace Y2C neck in a single strike back in mid P1; and Akainu stopped WB from lifting his bisento with his foot.
> 
> 2. Yes it’s YuYu Rules; and Luffy being declared a Yonko even though he didn’t defeat Big Mom and only weakened her supports that idea. The other thing to consider is that the resources of the Yonko aren’t equal WB commanders are stronger but he doesn’t have entire army of Smile people or Homies like Kaidou and Mom.
> 
> ...



1. I rate Ace a lot lower then you do so I'm not really impressed with BB almost breaking his neck. Akainu feat vs Whitebeard is a great one I bring it up all the time but I don't think it's good enough for me to say akainu man handles queen with his bare hands with no diff, but perhaps it is. 

2. Big news Morgan was sucking Luffys dick. Luffy has no territory Besides Fishman island which I don't think the WG even knows about and he has some fodder allies which I'm also not sure the WG even knows about I honestly forget, regardless luffy got one shot by kaidou and BB said he ain't ready so that makes that clear. We both know that fodder is irrelevant  kaidou one shot luffy with a casual attack, massively nerfed big mom fodderized Queen. Smiles and homies are nothing hell given the fact kaidou and big mom can arguably solo there entire army's the yonkou commanders themselves barley matter to be honest. Oda is more then welcome to go the YuYu Hakushow route but if that's what he wanted us to think was the case with WB he's done a pretty shitty job of showing it. 

3. For starters Ace attacked akainu not the other way around and also weaker characters then Ace have reacted to Akainu(jinbei/Iva) that's not a big deal. If Ace attacked Big mom she would charge right through his flames grab him by his head and precede to do the same exact thing she did to queen. If Akainu actually tried to rush at ace(which he never did) he would of quickly out manuevered him and gave Ace the jinbei treatment. Of course Akainu would fist queen all the same as well. Akainu vs Ace was a devil fruit confrontation Ace lost, big mom vs queen was a physical confrontation Queen lost. Switch them around same thing happens ace gets the Mario treatment and, Queen eats magma for lunch. 

4. Don't really care if kizaru is light speed or not as that only matters when discussing battles with other verses. databook says kizaru is fast as fuck and you need High level coo to keep up with him. No one else has his level of hype towards his speed so until more evidence comes he's the fastest dude on the planet. Eitherway Marco intercepting his attack is impressive it's nothing crazy though he had plenty of time to react and Marcos not fodder so of course he could intercept it, would be pretty embrassing if he couldn't. 



5. Jozu was fighting Aokiji and got distracted because his crewmate who has a broken ass regen devil fruit got shot by kizaru. It's Marineford weird shit happens and COO has never been consistent. Doesn't make much sense for a half dead Whitebeard who as we know is big as shit to get the drop on Akainu, but he did. Doesn't make much sense for shanks and his crew to pull up in Marineford and no one notice shanks until he blocked akainu attack but well that's what happend. I can list weird shit all day oda said himself story Comes first consistent power rankings aren't his main goal so what can you do. 

6. Aokiji has already shown that He can attack without moving a inch and if Akainu and kizaru have awakening they can do the same. As for kaidou like I said plot Aside fuji throws his ass in the water. Oda would never write that though so kaidou probably just muscles through his gravity or does some shit with COA to help him deal with it.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 12, 2019)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> So Ace = Sabo = Fujitora? What’s next? Curiel > Green Bull?
> 
> Let’s see...
> - WB and Ace died
> ...



Ace only died because he went back to face Akainu instead of running away , WB died because he was sick and old and it took the entire army to take him down and the only reason he didn’t take down more marines is because they were afraid to face him man to man you gotta think you’re talking about an entire army vs a handful of pirates .

Akainu shit his pants at another Yonko crew showing up they were pussies who had to have a massive numbers advantage on home territory just to survive , Akainu wanted Liffey dead and when Shanks showed up he cucked down .



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Sabo would destroy Ace worse then teach did.



I’ll take whatever you are smoking


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## barreltheif (Jul 12, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Akainu shit his pants at another Yonko crew showing up they were pussies who had to have a massive numbers advantage on home territory just to survive , Akainu wanted Liffey dead and when Shanks showed up he cucked down .



No, Sengoku called off the war. Most of the marines, including Akainu, wanted to continue fighting. Akainu told everyone to continue attacking Luffy. Kizaru had Beckman's gun pointed right at his head, yet he mocked Beckman, completely ignored his threats, and attacked Luffy. And then Beckman backed down and didn't even shoot at him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jul 12, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. I rate Ace a lot lower then you do so I'm not really impressed with BB almost breaking his neck. Akainu feat vs Whitebeard is a great one I bring it up all the time but I don't think it's good enough for me to say akainu man handles queen with his bare hands with no diff, but perhaps it is.
> 
> 2. Big news Morgan was sucking Luffys dick. Luffy has no territory Besides Fishman island which I don't think the WG even knows about and he has some fodder allies which I'm also not sure the WG even knows about I honestly forget, regardless luffy got one shot by kaidou and BB said he ain't ready so that makes that clear. We both know that fodder is irrelevant  kaidou one shot luffy with a casual attack, massively nerfed big mom fodderized Queen. Smiles and homies are nothing hell given the fact kaidou and big mom can arguably solo there entire army's the yonkou commanders themselves barley matter to be honest. Oda is more then welcome to go the YuYu Hakushow route but if that's what he wanted us to think was the case with WB he's done a pretty shitty job of showing it.
> 
> ...



1. No matter how you rank Ace I don’t see any way to argue Queen has a better showing then him... and Akainu feat definitely is 

2. He isn’t ready to beat a Yonko 1v1 but he was considered a Yonko for being able to disrupt Moms crew; that tells us that being a Yonko isn’t about winning 1v1 against another Yonko; and Fodder does matter as we saw in the War of the Best. 

3. The difference is Ace’s attack blocked most of Akainu, while Queen just got stomped 

4. He also landed a blow on Kizaru; ether way even if Kizaru is faster there is noting. Saying he’s substantially faster 

5. Saying weird shit happens doesn’t mean they were distracted significantly in that instance

6. Okay so why can’t Marco muscle through the gravity or use Haki? The gravity realistically has no feats against someone with High level Haki. And Zoro negging the other gravity move as well as Sabo negging his other gravity attacks doesn’t instill much hope for me; remember Revos even fought him and Greenbull again. Honestly just can’t see these two as; equal to the color trio yet


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 12, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> I’ll take whatever you are smoking



I'm smoking that one piece kush my guy. Let's not go back to the old days of Ace wank please.

Neither Ace feats, hype, or portrayal put him above Doflamingo and Sabo beats the dog shit out of Doflamingo as well.



Turrin said:


> 1. No matter how you rank Ace I don’t see any way to argue Queen has a better showing then him... and Akainu feat definitely is
> 
> 2. He isn’t ready to beat a Yonko 1v1 but he was considered a Yonko for being able to disrupt Moms crew; that tells us that being a Yonko isn’t about winning 1v1 against another Yonko; and Fodder does matter as we saw in the War of the Best.
> 
> ...



1. One guy ended up dead the other ended up capturing a yonkou and walking away from the fight with no visible injuries. I would rather be queen I think. 

2. I agree being a yonkou is not about 1v1 fights it's about controlling large pieces of territory and having the power to not only stop other pirates from taking it but the WG as well and without a certain level of power your lands will be taken from you. Marco wasn't recognized as a yonkou despite having control over most of whitebeards territory and BB wasn't recognized as a yonkou until he took whitebeards old territorys and defeated Marco. Luffys feats on paper look really good he made big mom look like a joke but in actuality his influence, power, and strength of his crew mates and allies are vastly below big mom who is quite possibly the weakest yonkou. 

3. Difference is one fighter was blitzed in CQC which would also happen to Ace if he shot fire at Big mom. Akainu was reacting to Ace attack and easily overpowered it dealing significant damage. Now if Ace did what Jinbei did and blocked Akainus attack sure that would be noteworthy. 

4. Never said he was substantially faster just that he is faster. 

5. Arguing how much someone was distracted is a silly and impossible task. Bottom line is they weren't focused completely on one opponent and we're still able to deal with there opponents(most of the time). Points to how powerful the admirals are. Marco, Vista, and jozu get free hits on admirals they do insignificant damage or none at all. Admirals get free hits on jozu and Marco they get fucked up. whitebeard gets a free hit to the back of Akainus head he still gets up from a terrible fighting position and takes a chunk out of whitebeards head. The difference between the admirals offensive abilitys and whitebeards Commanders are night and day. Jozu and Marco have comparable if not better defensive skills(depending on how highly you rate Marcos regen and jozu diamond) but there offense is trash compared to them. 

6. If I gave the impression that I think Fuji fodderizes Marco and that he will be completely helpless agasint him I apologize as I don't think that's the case. I simply believe fuji has the tools to deal with Marco and he will win in the end. At what difficulty I don't know have to see more of Marco and Fuji before I can say. In the past I would of said fuji extreme diffs Marco, but with the recent showing of multiple yonkou commander being humiliated by top tiers  I'm not so sure. We shall hopefully see this arc if Marco really is special or if he is fodder to kaidou just like luffy is. If Marco impresses me then I will gladly change my stance. As for Green Bull and Fuji it's way to early to be putting a limit on there strength. Green bull has no feats and fuji was fucking around in Dressrosa.  Only thing set in stone is Akainu is stronger then them due to obvious plot relevance. Kizaru and Aokiji is up in the air.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 13, 2019)

3 at minimum for a "weakest" admiral, but 4-5+ YC1 for a ~C3 admiral

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 13, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> No, Sengoku called off the war. Most of the marines, including Akainu, wanted to continue fighting. Akainu told everyone to continue attacking Luffy. Kizaru had Beckman's gun pointed right at his head, yet he mocked Beckman, completely ignored his threats, and attacked Luffy. And then Beckman backed down and didn't even shoot at him.



He called of the war because Shanks showed up bottom line and if you take away reinforcements and it’s just WB Army against the Color Trio they get raked across the coals


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## Turrin (Jul 13, 2019)

@Donquixote Doflamingo 

1. Because she decided to take a nap; stop trolling. You know Ace did better 

2. Yeah so that point is that your Yonko level if you, your crew, and allies can do enough significant damage to a Yonko’s power base (Crew/Allies). Luffy was given the title of Yonko because from the world perspective he greatly weakened Moms crew by stopping a crucial alliance with the Vinsmokes, defeating 3 of her commanders including her FM, and turning her form allies the capone pirates against her, alongside taking down quite a large number of her soldiers. There’s no way that if Shanks or Kaidou attacked right after that with their full resources Mom would stand any chance even if Mom was stronger then those 2. That’s what the Yonko balance is about. That fighting one Yonko weakens you enough that you can’t handle another; and therefore in-fight between the Yonko is avoided as it ensures mutual destruction 

3. Ace was never blitz by Akainu he even manages to save Luffy at the last second from Akainu attack reacting to it. And Akainu easily overpowering Ace attack is a lie; Akainu and Ace clashes and most of Akainu attack was stopped, Ace only took damage from Magama > Fire. So just stop trolling with that.

4. So Kizaru is the fastest Admiral and is slightly faster then Marco, seems like that would place Marco around the speed of the other two admirals 

5. Of course it matters how distracted they we’re; that’s like saying if a random marine attacked WB; that he’d be as off his guard as Akainu attacking them. Luffy was a nat to the admirals and as such they could easily attack him while still using their CoO to keep track on more dangerous enemies; in comparison to the WB Commanders who dropped everything when they thought they were going to loose the war and their captain; it’s way different 

6.  I would say that’s a fair stance even if I disagree. My main beef is with the idea of comparing the YC; like since Queen got fodderized by Mom that means Jozu/Ace/Vista would; or because Luffy beat Katakuri he is stronger then Marco and Marco would get one shot by Kaidou. Imo there is a large variation between YCM and Marco is much stronger then Katakuri; and Jozu/Vista/Ace are much stronger then Queen. As far as Fujitora goes I think he is the weakest Admiral or at least shown the least; and I think Marco held his own against a Color Trio, so I tend to think Marco >= Fujitora. But if you think Fujitora high diffs Marco that’s not crazy ether


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 13, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I'm smoking that one piece kush my guy. Let's not go back to the old days of Ace wank please.
> 
> Neither Ace feats, hype, or portrayal put him above Doflamingo and Sabo beats the dog shit out of Doflamingo as well.
> 
> ...



Ace would be the WB to Luffy’s Roger if he didn’t die , his potential is right there with Luffy/BB so saying he’s as strong as Sabo isn’t wanking when his feats against Akainu who is much stronger than Fujitora warrant that respect .


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Donquixote Doflamingo
> 
> 1. Because she decided to take a nap; stop trolling. You know Ace did better
> 
> ...



1. She didn't decide to take a nap the trauma from getting smacked on the head and regaining her memories made her fall asleep which is a credit to queen as big moms natural durability is insane. After all said and done Ace is dead and Queen is perfectly fine there two encounters with top tiers is vastly different despite both of them being fodders to top tiers.

2. if a nerfed big mom can fodderize queen but she can't do the same thing to jozu or marco then there is no balance. The difference between someone putting up a fight and fodderzing someone is massive. Now perhaps im misunderstanding how big you think the gap is but i saw you state that vista and jozu were stronger then katakuri. If thats the case what balance is there? White-beard can go to Whole cake island with his boys destroy all her forces. Hes not going to be that weakened because Vista whos white-beards third strongest fighter can beat big moms strongest fighter. Sure the other yonkou could take that time to take a bite out of whitebeards territory's but so what he just got all of big moms. Doesn't take long at all for characters to recover in one piece if Katakuri can only give a mid diff fight to Marco then his injuries will be healed in a few days at most and ready to fight Kaidou and his forces if they decided to mobilize and try to take advantage of the WB forces attacking big mom. Regardless as i said before i don't see any strong evidence to support that notion. Marco was in no shape or form a threat to the admirals during marineford he was a glorified meat shield he might be the strongest firstmate out of the yonkous but hes not mid diffing katakuri thats to big of a gap.

3. AKainu never directly attacked Ace so yes he was never blitzed. How is Akainu using his most basic attack not easily overpowering him? Akainus fruit is stronger then Aces im aware whats that have to do with the discussion?

4. never said the other admirals were a tier above marco in speed. i said they are faster then him. Kizaru and Aokiji are anyway.

5. Of course there are levels to distraction but its impossible to gauge to what extent. COO is not always active and in a war with a fuck ton of people its obviously less effective. As i already listed White-beard the center figure of the entire war and half alive got the drop on Akainu. Eitherway doesnt change the fact the commanders got free shots on the Admirals and did jack shit. The best they could do was give Aokiji a busted lip while he was besting the worlds strongest man 1v1.

6. Well as we have already been discussing i don't think thats the case. I believe there is a balance between the yonkou crews and at best i would give marco a high diff win over katakuri. I don't think Jozu or vista would beat him. I would also place Ace around Dressrosa Law level i don't find him very impressive. Its perfectly fair to put fujitora as the weakest admiral as he has the worst feats and the worst hype out of all of them. Its also possible Marco is stronger then him. I just personally view the Admiral title with more weight i dont think Oda would have marco win in a fight vs fuji.



Eliyua23 said:


> Ace would be the WB to Luffy’s Roger if he didn’t die , his potential is right there with Luffy/BB so saying he’s as strong as Sabo isn’t wanking when his feats against Akainu who is much stronger than Fujitora warrant that respect .



Current Sabo has over 2 years on Ace. Ace has been dead for 2 years and Ace was also chasing after black-beard for quite some time instead of fighting in the new world with White-beards forces. 

So Pre-skip Ace being as strong as current sabo who just got the added bonus of eating aces fruit would put Ace massively above preskip sabo. Which he has no business being since Sabo has been getting trained by Dragon since he was a kid.


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## CaptainCommander (Jul 13, 2019)

10 WB Commanders
6 Titans
2 Sweets
& a parterage in a pair tree.


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## Turrin (Jul 14, 2019)

@Donquixote Doflamingo 

1. If your going to pretend Queen did better because of some plot induced BS at the end ignoring that she got fodderized and Ace actually stopped most of Akainu attack; I’m not going to bother with this point anymore, as I’m not going to convince you and your not going to convince me 

2.  The WB pirates are overpowered; they always have been. That’s why Oda needed the plot device that’s WB had no desire to become PK; otherwise the moment roger died Prime WB would have gotten the one piece as he was a direct rival for Roger. Like wise this is also why Oda had to weaken WB with old-age, illness, Squad stabbing him during the war of the best so the marines could win against him. So the reason things were balanced with WB is because WB was sick/old and didn’t care about being PK, so he wouldn’t attack Mom. And Mom/Kaidou avoided attacking him because they would get wrecked; only waiting until he was busy dealing with another huge force the Marines.

And that’s the other issue with your premise it’s not like the other Yonko are necessarily going to wait until 1 Yonko defeats another to attack; two Yonko fighting is big news; just like Kaidou was planing to attack WB while he was engaged with the Marines; if WB actually did attack Mom, same thing would happen where Kaidou would jump in at the tail end and fuck up the WB pirates and Shanks might not be around or care to stop him.

3. Because for the third time Ace stopped the force of his attack with his most basic attack (Fire Fist; not Entei or anything more advanced)

4. The admirals being slightly faster then Marco doesn’t mean he isn’t on their level so it’s irrelevant to my point.

5. Saying the Admirals were equally distracted by Fodder Luffy as The Commanders by their captain/father potentially dying is ridiculous, so like the first point I suggest we drop this as you aren’t convincing me of anything with this 

6. So you believed Katakuri would perform about as well as Marco in the War of the Best?

Ace being law level is nonsense by the way; he was a top WB commander who clashed evenly with two admirals and pushed BB to at least Mid/High diff. We’ve also haven’t seen a single Top Yonko commander that’s on par with Law


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 14, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. She didn't decide to take a nap the trauma from getting smacked on the head and regaining her memories made her fall asleep which is a credit to queen as big moms natural durability is insane. After all said and done Ace is dead and Queen is perfectly fine there two encounters with top tiers is vastly different despite both of them being fodders to top tiers.
> 
> 2. if a nerfed big mom can fodderize queen but she can't do the same thing to jozu or marco then there is no balance. The difference between someone putting up a fight and fodderzing someone is massive. Now perhaps im misunderstanding how big you think the gap is but i saw you state that vista and jozu were stronger then katakuri. If thats the case what balance is there? White-beard can go to Whole cake island with his boys destroy all her forces. Hes not going to be that weakened because Vista whos white-beards third strongest fighter can beat big moms strongest fighter. Sure the other yonkou could take that time to take a bite out of whitebeards territory's but so what he just got all of big moms. Doesn't take long at all for characters to recover in one piece if Katakuri can only give a mid diff fight to Marco then his injuries will be healed in a few days at most and ready to fight Kaidou and his forces if they decided to mobilize and try to take advantage of the WB forces attacking big mom. Regardless as i said before i don't see any strong evidence to support that notion. Marco was in no shape or form a threat to the admirals during marineford he was a glorified meat shield he might be the strongest firstmate out of the yonkous but hes not mid diffing katakuri thats to big of a gap.
> 
> ...



Ace’s got royal D blood and was trained by the second strongest in the world ever his potential shits all over Sabo so with two more years of training Ace who has close to Luffy potential and older would be stronger than Marco in two years so Sabo was more than likely much weaker than Sabo and like Luffy he has now gotten close to Ace or maybe slightly stronger at best .


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## Corax (Jul 14, 2019)

Ace and Sabo were equal in that flashback (one had 50 another 51 win). So Sabo is that Ace would have been post TS. At least portrayal suggests so.


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## convict (Jul 14, 2019)

Depends on the commander and depends on the Admiral. 10 Crackers aren't beating Akainu but I see 2 Marcos beating Fujitora.


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## Shiroryu (Jul 14, 2019)

2 or 3 YC1


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## Vivo Diez (Jul 14, 2019)

What's a top tier yonko commander? Is Page One or Oven top tier commanders?

The way the power scaling is out of whack right now compared to how it was during Marineford, anyone in a yonko crew outside of a yonko seems to be relatively irrelevant unless there are some really advantageous circumstances(Queen dropping on BM's head, Jozu blindsiding Aokiji with a full body attack etc).

Like...3-4 Jozus could probably keep creating opportunities where they hit Aokiji full force, but is just being able to hit him and cause a little mouth-bleed enough to eventually win?


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## Corax (Jul 15, 2019)

That is the main reason. Their attacks just lack sufficient strengh to seriously damage top tiers. We haven't seen King and Beckman all out though,but Marco and Jozu did very little. And Katakuri's attack potency and DC were lacking to say the least.


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## Gohara (Jul 16, 2019)

In some cases 1 high ranking yonkou commander, and in other cases 2 high ranking yonkou commanders

We've seen a lot of high ranking commander characters match up on par with admirals, an off screen confrontation between some of the Whitebeard commanders and Akainu isn't a priority versus a lot of other match ups combined


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## Gianfi (Jul 17, 2019)

Around , or 3 at best. Despite the admiral supporters’ denial YCs were shown holding their own against admirals. Admirals are weaker than Yonko after all


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## GreenBull956 (Jul 17, 2019)

Depends on the matchup

For example Non Awakened Aokiji is possible to defeat 2 Non Awakened Marco since i don't think Marco are gonna regen after being frozen ( Marco's Fire don't burn btw )

But Non Awakened Kizaru might not be able to defeat 2 Non Awakened Marco , same for Fujitora , but i'm leaning towards Akainu being able to

Awakened Admirals though , looks like it'll require a lot of even YC1 to defeat one


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Donquixote Doflamingo
> 
> 1. If your going to pretend Queen did better because of some plot induced BS at the end ignoring that she got fodderized and Ace actually stopped most of Akainu attack; I’m not going to bother with this point anymore, as I’m not going to convince you and your not going to convince me
> 
> ...



1. Plot induced or not it's what happend. Luffy beat katakuri on plot BS doesn't mean we Shouldent respect oda intent and raise luffys power level accordingly. Obviously in a real fight queen would not be capable of replicating that feat but at the end of the day oda had ace die to akainu and queen is perfectly fine right now. Even if Ace didn't throw himself in front luffy as a meat shield he was quickly about to get destroyed by akainu either way, unless marco/Vista got to him in time. But we shall agree to disagree. 

2. It's possible we won't know for sure until we see how the WB pirates do agasint kaidous forces or how they do agasint Weevil. 

3. So they both used basic moves and Ace lost? How does that make ace look good it's just devil fruit interaction. Luffy along with Mr3 blocked attacks from Magellan had nothing to do with luffy or m3 being close to Magellan level, there devil fruits just so happend to cancel each other out. If Ace attacked monet with a basic ass fire attack she would be able to cancel it out just fine doesn't change the fact monet is complete fodder to Ace. 

4. I never said the admirals being a little faster then Marco made them above his level either. I said the admirals being above Marco in almost every category does. 

5. Not sure how it matters how much someone was distracted? What matters is the end result of said distraction. What happend was Marco got free hits on Akainu and Aokiji and did nothing to them. Jozu got a free hit on Aokiji and gave him a chicken scratch. If the best they can manage is chicken scratches when they get free hits what are they going to do when the admirals are fully on guard blocking with advanced coa and firing off massive amounts of light beams, ice, and magma as they no longer have to worry about friendly fire. 

6. He would do better in some regards worse in others.

7. Only top whitebeard commanders are Marco, jozu, and Vista. Law fought a Admiral+Doflamingo for a extended period of time that's way more impressive then blocking a ice bird from aokiji(which law can also do) and negating some of Akainus magma(which law can also do). I also rate Yami Teach at Doflamingo level.


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## Edogawa (Jul 17, 2019)

Even if you added up all of the first mates in the series - Luffy, Katakuri, Marco, Beck etc.  and pinned them against the Admiral, the Admiral will still win.

There's a huge power disparity between the commanders and Admirals/Yonkos. The disparity is so big that an Admiral/Yonko can casually one-shot. You mentioned an injured Akainu overwhelming 13 commanders plus Crocodile, I'll give you more examples:

-Kaido one-shots G4 Luffy.
-BM one-shots G4 Luffy, Queen.
-Aokiji one-shots Jozu.
-Akainu one-shots Ace.
-BM is stated that when she goes in hunger mode, even her sons can't stop her Katakuri included.

The difference between tier 1 (Admirals, Yonkos) and tier 2 (1st commanders) is kind of like BSM Naruto and Base Naruto.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 17, 2019)

Edogawa said:


> Even if you added up all of the first mates in the series - Luffy, Katakuri, Marco, Beck etc.  and pinned them against the Admiral, the Admiral will still win.
> 
> There's a huge power disparity between the commanders and Admirals/Yonkos. The disparity is so big that an Admiral/Yonko can casually one-shot. You mentioned an injured Akainu overwhelming 13 commanders plus Crocodile, I'll give you more examples:
> 
> ...



Yoooo chill out


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## Beast (Jul 17, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Ace’s got royal D blood and was trained by the second strongest in the world ever his potential shits all over Sabo so with two more years of training Ace who has close to Luffy potential and older would be stronger than Marco in two years so Sabo was more than likely much weaker than Sabo and like Luffy he has now gotten close to Ace or maybe slightly stronger at best .


Sabo was shown to have as much potential as Ace when they were younger with Ace a little stronger having 1 win over Sabo when Luffy met and joined them as brothers. Sabo was comparable to Ace when they were younger and same as Ace (WB) and luffy (Ray), he had a top tier teacher in Dragon the MCs father and the hype being Dragons second in command at such a young age. Pre TS Ace isn’t comparable to Pre DR Sabo nevermind after getting Aces fruit as well. And luffy isn’t close to Ace, he is far far above his level just as Current Sabo is, they were kids with amazing potential each and every single one of them but one died, being dead isn’t helping anyone get stronger.


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## Turrin (Jul 17, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Plot induced or not it's what happend. Luffy beat katakuri on plot BS doesn't mean we Shouldent respect oda intent and raise luffys power level accordingly. Obviously in a real fight queen would not be capable of replicating that feat but at the end of the day oda had ace die to akainu and queen is perfectly fine right now. Even if Ace didn't throw himself in front luffy as a meat shield he was quickly about to get destroyed by akainu either way, unless marco/Vista got to him in time. But we shall agree to disagree.
> 
> 2. It's possible we won't know for sure until we see how the WB pirates do agasint kaidous forces or how they do agasint Weevil.
> 
> ...



1. Come on man be real Queen only landed that blow because Mom was mindless and distracted by Luffy / Hunger

2. Fair enough, but they still have better showings and hype then Queen

3. Because he canceled out the force of Akainu attack.

4. But they aren’t. Marco seems around the level of 2 Admirals in speed and slightly slower then 1 Admiral. He’s above all 3 defensively, while being beneath them offensively. Seems pretty equal to me.

5. How distracted someone is; comes down to how well they can defend themselves that’s extremely basic.

For the record I don’t believe Jozu would beat Color Trio. But he would do well enough against them that WB thought he could handle himself; and I don’t get the impression that Queen could do that well

6. How so?

7. Ace is a top commander above Vista.

Law fought a jobbing Admiral; while Ace fought serious ones; it’s absolutely not as impressive.

Yami Teach at DDs level is nonsense when he was taking out YCM and wounding shanks prior to getting the Yami Fruit

DD is at best equal to Cracker Moms third division commander and likely the weakest 3rd division commander among the Yonko. Ace as the 3rd division commander of the WB pirates is probably the strongest 3rd division commander or at least well above Cracker; and that bares out in him outperforming even 2nd division commanders like Queen


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Come on man be real Queen only landed that blow because Mom was mindless and distracted by Luffy / Hunger
> 
> 2. Fair enough, but they still have better showings and hype then Queen
> 
> ...



1. I literally said queen wouldent be able to replicate it in a real fight but portrayal is portrayal and Queen captured a yonkou with no current injuries while Ace couldn't protect luffy from akainu without giving up his life. 

2. Marco, jozu, and Vista have better feats. As far as hype goes only Marco is superior.

3. And Jinbei grabbed Akainus magma fist with his bare hands. It's not a bad feat sure but it's nothing crazy. Ace has a powerful logia so him being able to neutralize other logias attacks with his own Is to be expected. 

4. Main difference here is that the admirals are Massively superior in offense it's not a slight difference. They also have better Haki feats. The moment Marcos regen runs out he is at risk of getting one shot, while the admirals can take his kicks for days on end. Now perhaps Marcos regen will last the 10+ days needed to wear down a admirals endurance who knows that's up to oda to set a limit on that, but seeing as how oda had Marco all bandaged up at whitebeards funeral I doubt it will last 10 days.

5. And which of the admirals defended themselves from the sneak attacks from the WB Commanders? That would just be aokiji who managed to put up his Ice Saber to try and block Marcos kick. I could easily argue that if Aokiji wasn't trying to kill luffy he would of just outright dodged Marcos attack or countered with a attack of his own aka resulting in him not getting kicked in the first place. Not that it actually matters since the kick didn't do anything which is my entire point which you seem to be confused on. The WB commanders had free passes to break through a admirals defense(a free pass they won't get in a 1v1 fight) and they didn't do shit. Which means there offense is trash. The amount the admirals were distracted by has no relation to the offensive power they can output. Replace jozu with Akainu and Aokiji would of had his face melted off while all jozu could manage was a little blood from his lip. 

6. He would be less mobile then Marco so he wouldent be able to save luffy from aokiji for starters as he wouldent even be in the area at that point most likely. He wouldent of been taken off guard by kizaru because he has future sight but in return he doesn't have a way to deal with kizaru shooting lasers in the sky as he can't fly so someome else would have to deal with kizaru trying to kill them at the start of the war. He would fail just like Marco did to hurt any of the admirals but his awakening would be able to create some shields so he would be able to protect luffy from getting magma fisted for a short time just like Marco did. If he tried to save Ace like Marco did Garp would punch him all the same although with future sight he might not even try it, and since he can't fly he would probably also not try it to begin with. So all in all due to katakuris lack of flight he actualy won't be able to do same things Marco did as most of what he did depended on him being at certain places at the right time which he was only able to do because he could freely fly in the air. In terms of admiral confrontation he does the same besides the initial kizaru stuff as I already mentioned. 

7. If your talking about Ace rank then that doesn't matter
*Spoiler*: __ 





SBS 
*D: About the Whitebeard Pirates, if there are pirates from the "Whitebeard ally groups", is there a possibility of one of them becoming a commander of the real Whitebeard Pirates itself? Or are the commanders all from the real Whitebeard Pirates from the beginning? P.N. amanuts*

*O*: Ok, I'll explain a little about the Whitebeard Pirates. First, captain Whitebeard and the 16 commanders. All 16 commanders, despite numbers and ages have the same rank. All the same. Whitebeard Pirates are just split in 16 groups and the division number does not indicate strength. The 43 ally pirate ships are not any part of the Whitebeard Pirates and are usually all just scattered everywhere living their own little lives. Yet they are loyal to Whitebeard, and help him in desperate times. They are like that. In Ace's case, the Spade Pirates were destroyed, and all the members joined the Whitebeard Pirates, so he was able to become a commander.





 First you would need to prove Fujitora was jobbing and by how much. At that point in Dressrosa he had no reason to spare law from his wraith. Also Ace didn't fight shit he clashed with aokiji and Akainu. That's not a fight not even close. Even if I agreed that fuji was jobbing(which I don't) it's still more impressive then getting burned by akainu and negating aokijis ice bird. 

Thatch has no feats or hype taking him out is not impressive. We don't know when Shanks fought Teach but it was more then likely during the times when Roger and whitebeard fought each other aka fodder cabin boy shanks. 

Ace is the 2nd commander and his rank has nothing to do with his authority or strength in the crew.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2019)

@Donquixote Doflamingo

1. Portayal of what though; that she can land a cheap shot on a distracted Mom; that was used for a Gag scene?

2. So from what we’ve seen the WB top commanders are better then Queen

3. Yes and Jinbei is also above Queen for doing so. Ace (and Jinbei) canceled out the power of the strongest Admirals attack, while Queen decimated by Moms attack; It’s obvious who did better.

4. I don’t see why your underrating Marco offense so much; a single kick from him overpowered Kizaru and smashed him into the ground causing a massive explosion in marine ford. Kizaru didn’t receive much damage, but that’s because Kizaru defense is also ridiculously high as a Logia with top notch Haki.

5. And my point is that it wasn’t a free pass for Marco; as Aokiji wasn’t distracted enough by Luffy to let down his guard. In the case of Jozu hitting Aokiji I agree with you he got a free hit, but he did damage Aokiji. Not as much but as I said I believe Aokiji > Jozu anyway just that he could hold his own against Aokiji level characters better then Queen, due to his showing in the War and WB faith in him to hold off Aokiji, whole Queen couldn’t do dick against Aokiji

6. So Katakuri makes some shields; while Marco was able to take on Admirals; pretty clear difference there

7. I’m aware of Odas words and all that means is that a lower division commander isn’t necessary weaker then a higher division commander. It doesn’t however change the fact that consistently the top division Commanders that receive the bulk of the screen time have been highlighted as strongest; this is true of Moms Crew with the Sweet commanders and Kaidous crew with the calamities; so there is no reason it wouldn’t be true for WB division commanders. So does this mean I believe Ace > Jozu / Vista; not necessarily but he should be around there level as a Top Commander and only potentially significantly inferior to FM Marco.

8. Doffy dealt with the same attack that Law did casually without using any of his stronger abilities. That means G4 Luffy basic attacks were far above the level of Fujitora meteor. This is the same G4 Luffy that Cracker and YC was countering without much issue until Nami supported him and allowed him to eat the biscuit soldiers. So basically Crack > G4 DR Luffy >>> Fujitora Meteor. If you want to believe that’s the level of a serious Fujitora, that’s on you, but ether way it’s no impressive that Law dealt with attacks at that level; and It’s definitely bellow Ace simply by virtue of the fact that Ace is a Top Yonko commander of the WB pirates and as such should be >= Cracker whose probably the weakest Top Yonko commander we’ll see in the story’s as he was used as a the first Top Yonko commander to measure Luffys level in comparison to theirs

9. Thatch was strong enough to be a YC in the new world; we don’t know if he was a Top Commander but still that’s enough hype to believe he was very strong; and if BB was beating him prior to the Yami fruit he likely was close to Top Yonko Commander level prior to eating the Yami Fruit and with it he defeated a Top Commander so he’s likely Yonko FM level.

Anyway BB Yami > Ace >= Cracker >= Doffy > Law


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## Corax (Jul 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Donquixote Doflamingo
> 8. Doffy dealt with the same attack that Law did casually without using any of his stronger abilities. That means G4 Luffy basic attacks were far above the level of Fujitora meteor. This is the same G4 Luffy that Cracker and YC was countering without much issue until Nami supported him and allowed him to eat the biscuit soldiers. So basically Crack > G4 DR Luffy >>> Fujitora Meteor. If you want to believe that’s the level of a serious Fujitora, that’s on you, but ether way it’s no impressive that Law dealt with attacks at that level; and It’s definitely bellow Ace simply by virtue of the fact that Ace is a Top Yonko commander of the WB pirates and as such should be >= Cracker whose probably the weakest Top Yonko commander we’ll see in the story’s as he was used as a the first Top Yonko commander to measure Luffys level in comparison to theirs


You are just comparing apples and oranges. Ace can't stop meteor at all as it is covered in plasma and Ace attacks are fire (plasma). Law used spatial hax to teleport that meteor. Just another example of "tier" logic.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2019)

Corax said:


> You are just comparing apples and oranges. Ace can't stop meteor at all as it is covered in plasma and Ace attacks are fire (plasma). Law used spatial hax to teleport that meteor. Just another example of "tier" logic.


Ace attacks aren’t just fire there is force behind them; he can easily stop the meteor with Fire Fist


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## Corax (Jul 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Ace attacks aren’t just fire there is force behind them; he can easily stop the meteor with Fire Fist


No they are as light as plasma. On contact they burn/engulf their target normally,unless he uses his actual limbs to punch something.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2019)

Corax said:


> No they are as light as plasma. On contact they burn/engulf their target normally,unless he uses his actual limbs to punch something.


Nope they have force go reread the manga


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## Corax (Jul 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Nope they have force go reread the manga


They have none,they aren't solid as any normal fire/plasma attacks aren't solid. If he uses his real body (like in his clash vs Akainu) they have force of his body.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2019)

Corax said:


> They have none,they aren't solid as any normal fire/plasma attacks aren't solid. If he uses his real body (like in his clash vs Akainu) they have force of his body.


Your wrong Sabo destroy the colosseum with Fire Fist and Ace destroys a building with his fire


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## Corax (Jul 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Your wrong Sabo destroy the colosseum with Fire Fist and Ace destroys a building with his fire


He used that and many other attacks (including fire pillars) vs Fujitora an buildings around them were only ingulfed in fire,not broken. Both in manga and anime.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Donquixote Doflamingo
> 
> 1. Portayal of what though; that she can land a cheap shot on a distracted Mom; that was used for a Gag scene?
> 
> ...



1. Portrayal of his power vs a top tier.

2. Yes the WB commanders have better feats. Which are virtually meaningless until we get proper feats from Queen which we haven't yet.

3. I don't rate Jinbei that highly. My ranking for jinbei would be something like Katakuri>Queen>Jack/Cracker/Doflamingo>Ace/Dressrosa Law/Jinbei(Other high ranking supernovas)

4. Marcos a brawler Zoan user and can freely fly in the air unlike Kizaru(so he couldent brace himself) he should have the advantage in raw strength as well given he is a zoan. Him kicking Kizaru to the ground although impressive doesn't really hype his offensive power much. If it actually fazed kizaru perhaps but it didnt.

5. Aokiji letting his guard down doesn't matter the fact he was focusing on someone else does. Croc is fodder and Jozu was easily dealing with him but despite Doflamingo being literally right next to Croc, Jozu was still unable to react quick enough to Doflamingos attack and he got easily paralyzed. Marco doing zero damage to aokiji is whats important here. Jozu giving Aokiji a chicken scratch also shows how low his attack power is in relation to top tier.

6. Not really literally the only thing Marco did in the war that Katakuri can't replicate is kick Kizaru out of the sky. Which is purely a mobility difference. Block Kizarus lasers, kick Aokiji, block two of Akainus magma punches katakuri can do all that just fine

7. Ace is directly tied to Luffy the main character of course he is going to get more screen time then White-beards other commanders thats not a good argument. That being said Ace is one of whitebeards stronger commanders i just dont put him on the same level of Marco/Jozu/Vista. The main theme it seems to be so far is that each yonkou has 3 very strong fighters. Ace is the Snack of the White-beard pirates or the Drake IMO.

8. Fujis meteors can be dealt with by high tiers yes we haven't been shown otherwise. Perhaps Fuji can call down even bigger meteors then the ones he has shown so far although im not sure how he would do that unless he has planet+ level COO range to be able to tell the sizes of the meteors hes trying to grab in space XD. Fuji can do more then just spam meteors by the way. What attacks did Aokiji use agasint Jozu i forget? Most of law vs fuji and doffy was off panel just like 99 percent of Jozu vs Aokiji was off panel but you seem to have no issue hyping up jozu but for some reason Laws feat not impressive cause Fuji was jobbing by some extreme amount? Far as im concerned Cracker kicks Ace ass.

9. Oven is also a yonkou commander and is based on feats, hype, and rank one of bigmoms strongest fighters and he was blitzed by Sanji, Sniped by Capone, and shit on by Ichiji. So again beating thatch is not that impressive as he has no particular standing in the WB crew. Far as we know he is as strong as Atmos who Doflamingo fodderized or Cruiel who coulden't even beat or heavily injure Moria during the war. So base Teach beating him doesn't put him any higher then Sanji tbh and Sanji eating the Yami fruit doesn't put him anywhere near katakuri level.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2019)

Corax said:


> He used that and many other attacks (including fire pillars) vs Fujitora an buildings around them were only ingulfed in fire,not broken. Both in manga and anime.


Cool doesn’t change the fact that they have force shown by those 2 examples


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 19, 2019)

Corax said:


> He used that and many other attacks (including fire pillars) vs Fujitora an buildings around them were only ingulfed in fire,not broken. Both in manga and anime.


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## Corax (Jul 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Cool doesn’t change the fact that they have force shown by those 2 examples


Yes they have,as they are still gas and have mass (though very little).But if we compare for example fire fist with magma fist second should have far more power as it is liquid (and has more mass). Even One Piece has some logic in it. Anyway I can't remember Ace blowing things,though I can't remember all of his attacks obviously. He has burned a lot of stuff though.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 8. Fujis meteors can be dealt with by high tiers yes we haven't been shown otherwise. Perhaps Fuji can call down even bigger meteors then the ones he has shown so far although im not sure how he would do that unless he has planet+ level COO range to be able to tell the sizes of the meteors hes trying to grab in space XD. Fuji can do more then just spam meteors by the way. What attacks did Aokiji use agasint Jozu i forget? Most of law vs fuji and doffy was off panel just like 99 percent of Jozu vs Aokiji was off panel but you seem to have no issue hyping up jozu but for some reason Laws feat not impressive cause Fuji was jobbing by some extreme amount? Far as im concerned Cracker kicks Ace ass.


Law very likely can't redirect his biggest meteors. I even have scans from some previous Law threads on PC and if I find them I can post here. As for Ace I agree. Vs Law he has no chance.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 19, 2019)

Corax said:


> Law very likely can't redirect his biggest meteors. I even have scans from some previous Law threads on PC and if I find them I can post here. As for Ace I agree. Vs Law he has no chance.



He doesn't need to redirect it he can always just cut it half and then use shambles to avoid the impact if he needs to. Unless Fuji can coat his meteors in haki(he cant) then they just aren't a threat to law whatsoever. 

Never said Law can beat Ace at least if i did that was a mistake. I do have them in the same sub tier though (Mid high tier). Law is extremely hax so you can never count him out  unless his opponent has a very versatile skill set such as doflamingo or just outright way stronger then him in haki+base stats in order to consistently negate his hax. Ace has no haki feats but he is luckily a logia so his haki levels are less relevant vs law unlike most people


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Portrayal of his power vs a top tier.
> 
> 2. Yes the WB commanders have better feats. Which are virtually meaningless until we get proper feats from Queen which we haven't yet.
> 
> ...



1. Dude even fodder could land blows and wound a distracted WB; it doesn’t show anything 

2. Cool so what your saying is so far WB Commanders > Queen; feel free to get back to me when Queen has equivalent feats.

3. So you must think Akainu is way weaker then Mindless Mom then, as Queen whose stronger then those Super Nova couldn’t react or stop her blows; while Jinbei could react to Akainu and stop his blow

4. Having higher physical strength and the ability to overcome an Admirals Haki with such does hype him. 

5. Again the amount someone is distracted matters; you won’t change my mind on this as it’s just facts 

6. And block attacks from Admirals 

7. The theme is that the top commanders are the best; and Ace is a top commander

8. Because as I said Fujitora was using attacks lower level then G4 Luffy; versus the Color Trio which were using much more devastating attacks

9. Oven is an officer not a commander


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## Corax (Jul 19, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> He doesn't need to redirect it he can always just cut it half and then use shambles to avoid the impact if he needs to. Unless Fuji can coat his meteors in haki(he cant) then they just aren't a threat to law whatsoever.
> 
> Never said Law can beat Ace at least if i did that was a mistake. I do have them in the same sub tier though (Mid high tier). Law is extremely hax so you can never count him out  unless his opponent has a very versatile skill set such as doflamingo or just outright way stronger then him in haki+base stats in order to consistently negate his hax. Ace has no haki feats but he is luckily a logia so his haki levels are less relevant vs law unlike most people


He needs to stop their momentum or they will explode on contact. And his biggest have catastrophic  explosion lvl. (island+sized). Even smallest destroyed a good portion of Green Bit beach and Fujitora deflected 1/2 of that attack into ocean. If you watch anime or manga panels closely you will see that he redirected 1/2 of that meteorite at Fujitora and 1/2 at Doflamingo,because they were in his room.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Dude even fodder could land blows and wound a distracted WB; it doesn’t show anything
> 
> 2. Cool so what your saying is so far WB Commanders > Queen; feel free to get back to me when Queen has equivalent feats.
> 
> ...



1. Whitebeards not a durability monster like big mom though. Queen hurt big mom even without using haki hardening anyway i assume he is retarded enough to attack a yonkou without haki. Half dead Whitebeard still missing a piece of his head made a joke out of Teach and had him crying for his life in two attacks. The fact that Queen at the end of the day is perfectly fine speaks volumes of his endurance and durability despite the fact he got shit on by a nerfed big mom. Would Ace get up after getting tossed around by Big mom? Maybe he could i would go as far to say as he could do it actually given his endurance feats vs jinbei but would he be in fighting shape after? i doubt it. Of course endurance and durability isnt the end all of power levels but it is something.

2. White-beard commanders also have better feats then Benn Beckman but  im not putting any of them above him though XD, but of course nothing wrong with waiting for feats Queen is going to get a fight this arc and quite possibly marco and maybe even jozu/vista if marco finds them and brings them with him. So we shall see.

3. Buggy dodged Akainus magma fists, and Croc cut Akainu in half reacting to Akainu in marineford is not very difficult. That being said big mom is a physical monster so i do think she is faster then Akainu and Queen is clearly not the speed type of fighter. 

4. Sure it does which is why Marco is pretty strong. His offense is still trash compared to the Admirals there is no way around it. His best feat is NOTHING ZERO DAMAGE. to a top tier. While the Admirals well i dont think i need to go over the admirals offensive feats you know what they are.

5. It doesnt matter to what im talking about which is offensive power. Offensive power of White-beards commanders=little to no damage to admirals. Offensive power of Admirals=mutilation and permanent injure to fellow admirals(Akainu vs Aokiji) and the worlds strongest man. Easy math here. 

6. Yes Katakuri can do that as well like ive said already.

7. Not in my books hes not.

8. I don't rate a Icebird or a basic magma punch higher then Fujis meteors. Even if i did as i have said before Law can easily deal with the same attacks that Ace did so Ace doing that doesnt put him above Law as he can do the same shit.

9. I am aware that Oven is not a Sweet Commander but he is the equivalent to white-beards commanders in crew rank. Around here Yonkou commander refers to a yonkous high ranking subordinate IE people will refer to yasopp as a yonkou commander. We dont actually know if Shanks gives his crew members the title of commander or not but its easier just to say they are a commander instead of saying Drake is apart of the flying six for example.



Corax said:


> He needs to stop their momentum or they will explode on contact. And his biggest have catastrophic  explosion lvl. (island+sized). Even smallest destroyed a good portion of Green Bit beach and Fujitora deflected 1/2 of that attack into ocean. If you watch anime or manga panels closely you will see that he redirected 1/2 of that meteorite at Fujitora and 1/2 at Doflamingo,because they were in his room.



None of Fujis meterors have Island level force that we have seen. 

Eitherway Fujis biggest meteor Law has shown to be able to deal with. So im not seeing as how meteors are a threat to Law.


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## Corax (Jul 19, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> None of Fujis meterors have Island level force that we have seen.
> Eitherway Fujis biggest meteor Law has shown to be able to deal with. So im not seeing as how meteors are a threat to Law.


They have by their size. You are confusing his 2nd smallest with largest. Smallest was 12 meter,2nd smallest was 60 meter, largest 600 meter and he used 4 largest. Law can't even create room big enough to contain four 600 meter asteroids. He needs to create island sized protective shields like bird cage,but he has no such feats.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Whitebeards not a durability monster like big mom though. Queen hurt big mom even without using haki hardening anyway i assume he is retarded enough to attack a yonkou without haki. Half dead Whitebeard still missing a piece of his head made a joke out of Teach and had him crying for his life in two attacks. The fact that Queen at the end of the day is perfectly fine speaks volumes of his endurance and durability despite the fact he got shit on by a nerfed big mom. Would Ace get up after getting tossed around by Big mom? Maybe he could i would go as far to say as he could do it actually given his endurance feats vs jinbei but would he be in fighting shape after? i doubt it. Of course endurance and durability isnt the end all of power levels but it is something.
> 
> 2. White-beard commanders also have better feats then Benn Beckman but  im not putting any of them above him though XD, but of course nothing wrong with waiting for feats Queen is going to get a fight this arc and quite possibly marco and maybe even jozu/vista if marco finds them and brings them with him. So we shall see.
> 
> ...



1. I don’t doubt Queen durability or physical strength she is a Top YC Zoan Fruit user; of course she’s going to be high in those areas. The issue is that Queen couldn’t compete with Mom in a direct 1v1; couldn’t defend herself at all from Moms attacks and couldn’t even launch an attack on Mom. However WB commanders could actually defend themselves against Color Trio and launch attacks on them in 1v1 confrontations 

2. Ben has no feats and has hype; Queen has feats and it’s getting wrecked by someone who is likely <= Admirals that WB pirates did better against. That’s the difference there. 

3. I said react and block; can you show me Buggy or Croc blocking a serious Magma fist from Akainu? Queen couldn’t do dick against a mindless Mom; come on man, this is getting silly, how much you are defending Queen 

4. Marco doing zero damage to Kizaru doesn’t mean his offense is shit anyone then Kizaru doing zero damage to Marco with his attacks (until Marco was off guard).

5. Akainu did that damage after an extended battle where he exhausted Aokiji; your ignoring circumstance

6. Prove it; Luffy who beat him got one shot by an Admiral level enemy

7. Law can’t deal with basic attacks form Mom let alone serious attacks from the Admirals 

8. No he isn’t he isn’t a commander


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. I don’t doubt Queen durability or physical strength she is a Top YC Zoan Fruit user; of course she’s going to be high in those areas. The issue is that Queen couldn’t compete with Mom in a direct 1v1; couldn’t defend herself at all from Moms attacks and couldn’t even launch an attack on Mom. However WB commanders could actually defend themselves against Color Trio and launch attacks on them in 1v1 confrontations
> 
> 2. Ben has no feats and has hype; Queen has feats and it’s getting wrecked by someone who is likely <= Admirals that WB pirates did better against. That’s the difference there.
> 
> ...



1. Jozu and Marco have defensive based devil fruits queen doesn't. Give Queen Marcos or jozu devil fruit and he would of took big mom's attacks with a smile on his face. Now that is not to discredit devil fruits if Marco and jozu have better defenses due to there devil fruits then of course that's a plus to them but neither jozu or Marco were able to hurt a Admiral. All they did was block attacks and sneak attack the admirals. Only one to actually fight a Admiral 1v1 was jozu and it was off panel for one chapter Something Law has done for a longer period of time with the added bonus of Doflamingo on top, law is still fodder to jozu though. Context and match up matters in this comparison. Marco and jozu have better defenses then Queen that is not arguable but defenses aren't the only thing that matter in a fight.

2. Queen getting bodied aren't enough feats to go off of beyond being fodder to yonkou which all of whitebeards commanders are to big mom as well. She actually solos the WB pirates(minus WB) just like she does her own crew. His hype is still extremely high one of the highest bountys in the series and implied to be significantly stronger then jack who took on two admirals and survived and basically soloed the mink nation.

3. Buggy can't obviously, croc probably can. Jinbei only intercepted and blocked a attack aimed at fodder luffy. A serious Akainu ran through jinbei like butter with one punch. I see no reason as to why queen can't intercept and block a magma fist aimed at fodder with his Haki. Might get a little burnt but he will be fine.

4. Except kizaru did do damage. Marcos fruit doesn't block damage it heals him. His fruit doesn't do anything if he's not getting injured. Kizaru can easily poke Marco full of holes he just heals from the damage after. In other words kizaru can get passed Marcos durability. Marco can't get passed Kizarus durability. That and kizaru has Waaaaaayyyy better DC feats then Marco does.

5. Not sure why that matters? Aokijis durability doesn't go up and down he's not weird like big mom. Unless your talking about Aokijis Haki levels being low towards the end of the fight well that goes both ways and I doubt Akainus COA is much better then Aokijis if at all regardless so that doesn't matter.

6. Luffy got blitzed and smashed in the head so not seeing the correlation, but seeing as how katakuri can use his awakening to turn the environment into mochi and his Haki and speed feats are better then Jinbeis who palmed Akainus magma with minor damage(and no visible indication he was using haki). Katakuri creates a bunch of mochi puts Haki on it and smashes it agasint Akainus magma fist and unlike Ace he won't be getting burned by doing so.

7. Based on his feats and the feats of his peers he can.

8. OK I'm not here to argue semantics. Over in the OL we call all yonkou members who are high ranking as yonkou commanders if you don't like that whatever its not actually relevant to the point. The point is that Oven is a high ranking member of big mom's crew he is one of her oldest kids and the most prominent member of her crew shown in Whole Cake Island besides katakuri. His standing within his crew based on what we know is higher then Thatch is in his crew who we have zero hype or feats for. Oven is fodder to Sanji, Capone, and ichiji. Blackbeard beating Thatch is no more impressive then oven getting shit on by ichiji.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Jozu and Marco have defensive based devil fruits queen doesn't. Give Queen Marcos or jozu devil fruit and he would of took big mom's attacks with a smile on his face. Now that is not to discredit devil fruits if Marco and jozu have better defenses due to there devil fruits then of course that's a plus to them but neither jozu or Marco were able to hurt a Admiral. All they did was block attacks and sneak attack the admirals. Only one to actually fight a Admiral 1v1 was jozu and it was off panel for one chapter Something Law has done for a longer period of time with the added bonus of Doflamingo on top, law is still fodder to jozu though. Context and match up matters in this comparison. Marco and jozu have better defenses then Queen that is not arguable but defenses aren't the only thing that matter in a fight.
> 
> 2. Queen getting bodied aren't enough feats to go off of beyond being fodder to yonkou which all of whitebeards commanders are to big mom as well. She actually solos the WB pirates(minus WB) just like she does her own crew. His hype is still extremely high one of the highest bountys in the series and implied to be significantly stronger then jack who took on two admirals and survived and basically soloed the mink nation.
> 
> ...



1. Queen has an Ancient Zoan; Zoan are known for their physical enhancements, and therefore ideal for physical contests, even still she got smoked by Mom in a physical struggle. So don’t come at me with DF Nonsense

2. Queen got bodied but the WB commanders didn’t; that’s enough to go on to tell us that the WB commanders had a better display then Queen

3. So basically your saying a serious Magma fist from Akainu is much weaker then a purely physical punch from a mindless Mom. As according to you Queen will be able to react to Akainu and block his magma fist with minimal damage unlikely how she got bodied by Mom unable to do anything. It’s fine if you believe that and could be true, but if it is it makes Mom seem much stronger then Akainu.

4. By that logic plenty of characters damaged the Admirals the attacks, they just reform due to Logia body. To do actual damage in both the case of Marco and the Admirals you needn’t to overcome their Haki and land a blow with your own. Kizaru failed to do that against Marco and Marco actually came closer to doing that with his kick but failed to do it enough to really damage Kizaru.

5. We don’t know if the same applied to Akainu; Akainu could have won due to him being able to use Haki longer then Aokiji; or that his Magma Element still worked on Ice even without Haki. The bottom line is it took hours for Akainu to land major blows on Aokiji; so saying Marco or Jozu couldn’t do it in minutes is irrelevant

6. Proof his Haki CoA is better then Jinbeis or that his physical speed is. 

7. Queen is beyond his level and couldn’t so that’s not true 

8. The point is that I’m Moms crew the sweet commanders have a higher rank to Oven; so there’s is a clear difference in strength between commanders and officers in Moms crew. Saying Oven is equal to Thatch because he’s a officer, is not an accurate comparison; the more accurate one would be Snack


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## Corax (Jul 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 4. By that logic plenty of characters damaged the Admirals the attacks, they just reform due to Logia body. To do actual damage in both the case of Marco and the Admirals you needn’t to overcome their Haki and land a blow with your own. Kizaru failed to do that against Marco and Marco actually came closer to doing that with his kick but failed to do it enough to really damage Kizaru.


That is also not true. In Marco's case you also need to overcome his regeneration via hax. Kizaru actually seriously damaged his body,but he regenerated.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2019)

Corax said:


> That is also not true. In Marco's case you also need to overcome his regeneration via hax. Kizaru actually seriously damaged his body,but he regenerated.


Yeah and you needed to overcome Kizaru hax intangibility via Haki too


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## Corax (Jul 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yeah and you needed to overcome Kizaru hax intangibility via Haki too


But he can't regenerate after this. Marco can. It isn't a fair comparison to compare regeneration with normal durability.Marco's normal durability is low.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2019)

Corax said:


> But he can't regenerate after this. Marco can. It isn't a fair comparison to compare regeneration with normal durability.Marco's normal durability is low.


Marco also isn’t intangible


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## Corax (Jul 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Marco also isn’t intangible


He doesn't need to be. His DF is better than even a logia. His normal body was easily pierced by Kizaru's weakest finger lasers while he was in kairoseki.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2019)

High Yonko = Prime WB
Low Yonko = Mom
High Yonko FM = Marco
Low Yonko  FM = Katakuri
High Top Yonko Commander = WB Top Commanders
Low Top Yonko Commander = Mom Top Commanders
High Yonko Commander = WB Commanders 
Low Yonko Commander = Mom Commanders
High Officer = WB Subordinate Captains 
Low Officer = Mom Officers

In terms of this scale Doffy would be around Low Top Commander similar to Cracker. 

Thatch would be ether High Top Yonko Commanders or High Yonko Commander. Ether way Teach beating him prior to the Yami Fruit should place him somewhere around Top Yonko Commander High or Low. Once he gets the Yami Fruit he should be Yonko FM High or Low; supported by him defeating Ace High Yonko Top
commander.

DR-Law is High or Low Yonko commander


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Queen has an Ancient Zoan; Zoan are known for their physical enhancements, and therefore ideal for physical contests, even still she got smoked by Mom in a physical struggle. So don’t come at me with DF Nonsense
> 
> 2. Queen got bodied but the WB commanders didn’t; that’s enough to go on to tell us that the WB commanders had a better display then Queen
> 
> ...



1. We comparing a dinosaur fruit to a fruit that regens your internal organs and let's you fly through Kizarus lasers with no issues and a fruit that let's you block mihawks second strongest attack shown to date without a scratch? Zoans do increase your physical stats but Marco was not boxing with the admirals and jozu fight was off panel so what he did or didn't do is unknown. Big mom is also physically superior to the admirals. If Marco tried to kick big mom like he did kizaru and Aokiji he would of failed to move her fat ass both times and then more then likely bitch slapped in the face by Zeus or Promethues right after.

2. We got no speed feats from queen, zero Haki feats, only attack we have seen from him is a dive bomb, and we haven't seen his hybrid form or any of his personal weapons he may have invented for himself.  We are lacking in a lot of feats from queen. Granted WB commanders still have room to show more feats as well since none of them got a 1v1 that lasted more then a couple pages on-panel at a time. But yes WB commanders have better feats I agree. I go off hype though until enough feats are given unless it's a extreme mismatch. Don't need more feats from Cavendish to know luffy shits on him at this point.

3. A serious magma fist from Akainu one shot jinbei, cruiel, and ivankov. I think big mom can do the same with a punch although they won't die. So in that regard I would rate a serious magma fist beyond big mom's base punches due to the lethality of them. If Akainu magma fists Queen in the head the fights over. Can akainu do this yes I think he can if he's actually trying to legit kill queen right off the bat. I also think he can magma fist Marco and jozu in the head pretty easily. Difference is there devil fruits save them in that situation. Jozu might still die though depending on Haki interactions that's hard to say.

4. Logias don't regen you know that. Hurting Marco has nothing to do with Haki levels. Whitebeard himself can punch Marco and he will still regen. This topic is gettimg redundant though. The admirals have way better attack feats then Marco if you disagree I would like to know of Marcos attacks that are anywhere near kizaru destroying a giant mangrove tree, aokiji freezing two giant tsunamis, akainu fisting everyone and there grandma's ect. Cause the best I've seen from Marco is him being able to touch the admirals body. Which is good not a lot of people can but it's no where close to good enough though.

5. OK so now your just speculating based on nothing which is pointless. Doesn't matter how long it took akainu. The point I'm arguing is attack power not how long it takes for akainu to use said attack power to win a fight. Akainus attack power is high enough to mutilate admirals. Now if you want to argue that Marco and jozu have greater attack power then they have shown in the war because they didn't have very long to fight admirals, that's perfectly fine and reasonable but it's still speculation. I'm going off of there current feats which is Admirals have a fuck ton more DC and attack potency then jozu and Marco. I personally expect Marco to look a lot more impressive in wano then during the War myself(jozu to if he shows up), but just based on there devil fruits alone the admirals have a massive advantage in the offensive category. 
*Spoiler*: __ 





6. 

Easily avoiding jinbei


Blitzing G4 Snakeman

Dancing through G4 Snakemans fastest attack.


Damaging G4 Snakeman fist in a direct clash




This is the same luffy who reacted to, dodged and blocked attacks from big mom. Same luffy who in base blocked a Pretzel roll from Cracker with minor damage with haki alone.










7. This ain't DBZ Queen being stronger then Law doesn't mean he can do the same things as him. Law in cannon can deal with admirals attacks period. He has the literal on panel feats showing he can this ain't me speculating I can post the panels if you want. We also have extensive knowledge of his various devil fruit abilitys so we can quite easily say what he can and can't deal with. A ice bird and magma punch he most certainly can deal with.

8. Snack is one of big mom's top 4 fighters. We have no reason to believe Thatch was top 4 in whitebeards crew. We do know that Oven is in the top 8 in big mom's crew. Only being weaker then 4 sweet commanders, his older brothers daifuku, pero, and presumably his oldest sister compote. Again Thatch is a complete unknown. Blackbeard beating him with unknown difficulty in a unknown scenario(for all we know he sneak attacked him at night) is not more impressive then Sanji shitting on oven no issues Pre Raid suit. Sanji the guy who got low diffed by Doflamingo.


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## Shiroryu (Jul 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> High Yonko = Prime WB
> Low Yonko = Mom
> High Yonko FM = Marco
> Low Yonko  FM = Katakuri
> ...


All of this is completely baseless. Stop shitting on the BMP


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. We comparing a dinosaur fruit to a fruit that regens your internal organs and let's you fly through Kizarus lasers with no issues and a fruit that let's you block mihawks second strongest attack shown to date without a scratch? Zoans do increase your physical stats but Marco was not boxing with the admirals and jozu fight was off panel so what he did or didn't do is unknown. Big mom is also physically superior to the admirals. If Marco tried to kick big mom like he did kizaru and Aokiji he would of failed to move her fat ass both times and then more then likely bitch slapped in the face by Zeus or Promethues right after.
> 
> 2. We got no speed feats from queen, zero Haki feats, only attack we have seen from him is a dive bomb, and we haven't seen his hybrid form or any of his personal weapons he may have invented for himself.  We are lacking in a lot of feats from queen. Granted WB commanders still have room to show more feats as well since none of them got a 1v1 that lasted more then a couple pages on-panel at a time. But yes WB commanders have better feats I agree. I go off hype though until enough feats are given unless it's a extreme mismatch. Don't need more feats from Cavendish to know luffy shits on him at this point.
> 
> ...



1. The point is her DF isn’t bad for a brawl; and she got no diffed.

2. Going of portrayal WB trust Jozu to hold his own against an Aokiji while Queen couldn’t dick against Mom. Ether Mom is much stronger the Better Aokiji or Jozu hype/portrayal is better; its that simple 

3. Jinbei stopped Akainu Magma fist though

4. Sure Marco basic kick overpowering an admiral flying and causing a massive explosion, is much better then destroying topography. 

5. Attack power doesn’t matter if the enemy is exhausted; if Aokiji couldn’t use Haki, but Marco could he could have easily blown his arms off too.

6.  Don’t see any proof there that his CoA is better then Jinbeis who blocked Akainu magma fist with his. I’m already aware Katakuri is faster then Jinbei.

7. Dude Law on panel couldn’t deal with Doffy attacks; so no he can’t  deal with Akainu serious Magma fist attack. Saying he can because he felt with Fujitora meteor which is low level shit in comparison is not an apt comparison by any means

8. Wasn’t Thatch literally the 4TH division commander same as Snack; and Snack rank as 4TH division commander is the only reason your ranking Snack as a Top fighter?

Ether way it doesn’t matter Yami Teach Beat Ace who actually was a Top Commander; that automatically places him above most commanders and in the realm of YFM, while Doffy is <= Cracker an average to below average Top Commander; and Law is weaker then Doffy.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. The point is her DF isn’t bad for a brawl; and she got no diffed.
> 
> 2. Going of portrayal WB trust Jozu to hold his own against an Aokiji while Queen couldn’t dick against Mom. Ether Mom is much stronger the Better Aokiji or Jozu hype/portrayal is better; its that simple
> 
> ...



1. Queens a man is he not did I miss something XD. Anyway thats true but I think your not understanding how powerful Marcos fruit specifically is defensively. Give usopp Marcos fruit and he can also take a magma punch from Akainu or get tossed around by big mom and get back up. Doesn't mean usopp is now borderline top tier. It means he has top tier endurance though until his regen runs out that's what the df gives him access to.

2. Already went over why WB opinion means jack shit in that comparison. Jozu was also fighting off panel we don't know how serious aokiji was or what attacks he used. So it's no more impressive then Law fighting fuji off panel for even longer amount of time then jozu.

3. He stopped a magma fist aimed at fodder yes.

4. No its not not even close. Also the explosion was Kizarus doing not Marcos. what your suggesting is that if Aokiji gets hit(and by hit I mean his real body not logia one) by Marcos kick he is going to take more damage then getting hit by Kizarus foot laser. Yea no way in hell that would be the case. Kizarus finger lasers can turn Marco into swiss cheese and go through WB like butter his foot laser is like 10x the size of his finger ones.

5. Being tired does not reduce your durability. Marco blows Aokijis arm off? He would need feats for that which he has none, not sure where your getting that idea from.

6. Hurting Luffys rubber fist through G4 Haki is a way better feat then anything jinbei has done. Luffy also has better coa feats then jinbei.

7. He dealt with plenty of Doflamingos attacks actually and dealt with more then one attack from fuji. Unlike Ace who got burned by akainu and only blocked a ice bird from aokiji.

8. Number Rank in whitebeards crew doesn't matter as stated by oda. The sweet commanders are big mom's top 4 fighters that was made clear that's why they have a seperate title then everyone else in big mom's crew and snack lost his after getting beat by urouge.

If I rated Ace as a top commander aka jack or Cracker level sure I would agree that would put Yami Teach on YFM level but I don't. I don't rate Ace any higher then Dressrosa law


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## Turrin (Jul 20, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Queens a man is he not did I miss something XD. Anyway thats true but I think your not understanding how powerful Marcos fruit specifically is defensively. Give usopp Marcos fruit and he can also take a magma punch from Akainu or get tossed around by big mom and get back up. Doesn't mean usopp is now borderline top tier. It means he has top tier endurance though until his regen runs out that's what the df gives him access to.
> 
> 2. Already went over why WB opinion means jack shit in that comparison. Jozu was also fighting off panel we don't know how serious aokiji was or what attacks he used. So it's no more impressive then Law fighting fuji off panel for even longer amount of time then jozu.
> 
> ...



1. If you give Ussop Marco Fruit against Akainu he takes a Haki Magma Fist to the head or heart killing him instantly despite the Fruit as he lacks the reflexes to avoid these attacks hitting vital areas; unless you believe Model Phoenix allows someone to regenerate from losing his head or heart?

2. And I already went over that I disagree with you. WB knows how powerful the Admirals are.

3. Yeah which is something Queen couldn’t do

4. Look I already agreed with you that Kizaru has the better offense; I just don’t agree the gap between Marco and Kizaru is enormous offensively. As far as CQC goes Marco overpowered Kizaru. While Kizaru is better at Mid/Long range combat due to Lazers at least until Marco shows a Mid/Long Range Technique of his own, which it’s very possible he has one since the other Mythic Zoans do. But sticking to feats my entire premise is that Marco is better defensively and Kizaru is better offensively. With the two being roughly equal or Kizaru marginally ahead, but on the same level. 

5. Being tired reduces you durability because you can’t use CoA. His kick which caused a massive explosion 

6. So you think Luffy G4 is stronger then Akainu?

7. Are you just willfully ignoring the fact that Dofkamingo attacks are far weaker then Akainu’s?

8. WB commanders are WB top fighters just like the sweet commander; comparing them to officer is highly dishonest not matter where you place Thatch on comparison to the other Commanders. 

9. Which is nonsense that your rating a Top WB commander beneath Doffy whose at best equal to Crack. It just is.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. If you give Ussop Marco Fruit against Akainu he takes a Haki Magma Fist to the head or heart killing him instantly despite the Fruit as he lacks the reflexes to avoid these attacks hitting vital areas; unless you believe Model Phoenix allows someone to regenerate from losing his head or heart?
> 
> 2. And I already went over that I disagree with you. WB knows how powerful the Admirals are.
> 
> ...



1.   Yes Marco can regen from his head getting destroyed or his heart.

2. He obviously doesn't seeing as how he lost the war without taking out a single Admiral.

3. Doubtful seeing as how Chopper blocked a attack from big mom as did Sanji and Luffy. Queen can block a fodder attack from Akainu.

4. We shall agree to disagree then as i think Kizaru is massively superior to marco in offense and will very quickly run marco out of his regen powers resulting in Marco dieing and Kizaru winning the fight with moderate injuries at best, which is me giving marco the benefit of the doubt he can actually hurt kizaru in a prolonged fight.

5. That is true but im refering to natural durability here. Akainu and Aokiji more then likely have roughly the same COA levels(I think Akainus is slightly higher but whatever) so there COA levels being low or high doesnt really matter as for the most part there COA is going to cancel each other out. Kizaru turned himself into light resulting in the explosion.

6. Nope but i do think Luffy has defended himself against attacks stronger then Akainus low end magma punch.

7. Nope its just irrelevant to my point. As some of Doflamingos attacks being weaker then Akainus low end magma punch is irrelevant to laws on panel feats that show he can in fact deal with the same attack Jinbei and ace dealt with.

8. No whats dishonest is trying to use different crew structures to try and hype up the White-beard commanders. Big Moms, Black Beard, and Kaidous crew rankings are not the same as White-beards. Just because Thatch is called a Commander and Drake isnt for example doesnt mean thatch is higher up Whitebeards crew then Drake is in kaidous. Oven is one of the highest ranking members in Big moms crew hes top 8 at minimum as i have already stated and thats not arguable. Thatch is one of *16* Whitebeard commanders. Where he ranks among those 16 is unknown. So again defeating Thatch isn't impressive.

9. I only consider Marco, Jozu, and Vista as top white-beard commanders. The rest are mid high tiers and below the majority being weaker then Law.

EDIT: I feel like this conversation is going no where. We obviously disagree on very important key difference here in terms of character rankings. IE: WB Commanders and Jinbei. Pretty sure i understand why you rank them as such i personally just don't find there feats as impressive as you do. I don't mind continuing the conversation though, not like i got anything better to do tbh.


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## Turrin (Jul 20, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1.   Yes Marco can regen from his head getting destroyed or his heart.
> 
> 2. He obviously doesn't seeing as how he lost the war without taking out a single Admiral.
> 
> ...



1. Alright we’ll if that’s the case I only rate Marco higher above the Admirals in defense

2. WB not  killing an Admiral has zero to do with his understanding of how strong they are

3. You keep comparing Jobbers to serious Admirals; highly unfair.

4. Can you show me when Marco regen powers were shown to quick drain Marco?

5. Not if Aokiji ran out of Haki before Akainu; as I have said many times now. Or if his fruit is in a relationship of inferiority to Akainu

6. Don’t know why you have decided that Akainu serious magma fist is low end

7. Dude Doffy wasn’t outmaneuvering and blitzing Law left and right; he isn’t going to be able to keep up with Akainu speed to evade his attack and he isn’t block Akainu magma fist

8. Proof that the crew structures are different and that officers in Mom crew are equivalent to commanders in the strongest Yonko crew; just stop

9. So basically your going to ignore the fact that In every other Yonko crew the 2ND division commander is a Top member of the crew only when it comes to Ace. Bias


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Alright we’ll if that’s the case I only rate Marco higher above the Admirals in defense
> 
> 2. WB not  killing an Admiral has zero to do with his understanding of how strong they are
> 
> ...


1. Fair enough.

2. His forces getting destroyed by admirals does.

3. Mind proving the Admirals in Marineford were any more serious vs Ace then Fuji was against Law?

4. Marco was shown with bandages at whitebeards funeral. Which means at some point during the war his regen powers went low otherwise he would be perfectly fine at white-beards funeral, and seeing as how the marineford war lasted less then 12 hours and Marco wasn't even fighting the admirals for most of the war. His regens not going to last a crazy long time fight a admiral non-stop. I would give him a day at most and admirals can fight 10 days.

5. Baseless speculation so not sure why you are bringing up? I could easily say Akainu ran out of haki first and Aokiji just ran out of physical stamina resulting in him being unable to dodge akainus attack that hit his leg, who fucking knows we didnt see the fight. We just know at the end of it Aokijis missing a limb and Akainu has some scars.

6. Because charcters that are fodder to him have shown the ability to deal with it in some fashion. If fodder can deal with your attacks  even if only a little its obviously no where near your stronger moves.

7. Doffy outmaneuvered law plenty of times. If buggy can react to Akainus attacks Law can to.

8. Does White-beard have Rooks, Knights, and Bishop classifications in his crew? No he doesn't but big mom does. They don't have the same rank structure thats not up for debate each yonkou crew so far is different. White-beards crew was never stated to be the strongest crew so irrelevant point even if they were stated to be the strongest that in no way translates to Thatch being stronger or having more authority then Oven does within their respective crews.

9.
*D: About the Whitebeard Pirates, if there are pirates from the "Whitebeard ally groups", is there a possibility of one of them becoming a commander of the real Whitebeard Pirates itself? Or are the commanders all from the real Whitebeard Pirates from the beginning? P.N. amanuts*

*O*: Ok, I'll explain a little about the Whitebeard Pirates. First, captain Whitebeard and the 16 commanders. All 16 commanders, despite numbers and ages have the same rank. All the same. Whitebeard Pirates are just split in 16 groups and the division number does not indicate strength. The 43 ally pirate ships are not any part of the Whitebeard Pirates and are usually all just scattered everywhere living their own little lives. Yet they are loyal to Whitebeard, and help him in desperate times. They are like that. In Ace's case, the Spade Pirates were destroyed, and all the members joined the Whitebeard Pirates, so he was able to become a commander.

Rank does not correlate to strength or authority in white-beards crew we already went over this


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Fair enough.
> 
> 2. His forces getting destroyed by admirals does.
> 
> ...



2. His forces weren't destroyed by the Admirals; they held the Admirals off fine until distracted by WB's illness

3. The Admirals were seriously trying to kill Roger's and Dragon's Sons, we know that for a fact. If you want to claim Fujitora was serious against Law, be my guest, that just makes Fujitora much weaker then the Color Trio; as once again we know for a fact that Fujitora attacks against Law and Doffy were on a much lower level then G4 Luffy. I'm not here to defend Fujitora's crap performance in DR.

4. Yeah when he had Seastone placed on him

5. My point is that whole fight is speculation; so you shouldn't be using it as evidence of anything

6.  Ace and Jinbei aren't fodder; your just underrating them

7. Buggy is a Gag character; using what Buggy does as evidence of anything is a dishonest argument

8. Not having the same structure doesn't matter. The strongest members of Mom's crew are the Sweet Commanders; like wise the strongest members of WB's crew are the Division Commanders. So comparing a Top member of WB's crew to an Officer who is not a top member of Mom's crew is dishonest; it's that simple.

9.  You can quote Oda's statement all you want, it won't change the fact that in every Yonko crew the Top Division commanders 1-5 are shown to be the strongest and most influential members of the crew. Ace is 2nd Division commander and as such falls into that group. And realistically you haven't given any reason why Ace should be considered weaker then Vista or Jozu.

Oda's statement simply means that Ace as the 2nd Division Commander isn't necessary stronger then Jozu the third division commander. That's it.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 22, 2019)

Depends which admiral and which commanders. 1-2 commanders have a decent shot of beating the average admiral as we have seen in Marineford and heard about in Reverie.



Sengoku said:


> The idea that an old non-prime Garp pimpslapped Marco down so hard with just 1 hit truly shows you how strong an admiral could be. YC1 = Admiral is outrageous and silly.



If that is so silly then why hasn't any admiral ever shown clear superiority in a direct confrontation? And why did it even take all 3 admirals, Garp, Sengoku and Mihawk just to secure Marineford against the Whitebeard pirates?


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## barreltheif (Jul 22, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> If that is so silly then why hasn't any admiral ever shown clear superiority in a direct confrontation?



They have. Akainu, Garp (a VA), and Aokiji. So have other top tiers.




> And why did it even take all 3 admirals, Garp, Sengoku and Mihawk just to secure Marineford against the Whitebeard pirates?



It didn't. Garp, Sengoku, and Mihawk barely did anything.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 23, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> They have. Akainu, Garp (a VA), and Aokiji. So have other top tiers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who are all 3 conveniently no admirals and were clearly portrayed as something above that level. 

Not the point. MHQ felt it was necessary to use all of them which shows that in-verse the Whitebeard pirates are perceived as far stronger than you want to make me believe.


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## Bonney (Jul 23, 2019)

You all keep going on about holding someone off as if it is a feat worth noting - Marco didn't do any damage to any of the C3 Admirals. He only faced down and stopped them because he could no sell any attacks due to his powers. While the same could be said for them to him - that is only due to Regen. If C3 can fight for 10 days could Marco hang on that long getting shredded by their attacks and regening? 

Is there any proof that a Yonko commander can even harm an on guard logia using Admiral? Superficial  damage like Jozu hitting Aokiji won't win the fight when someone like Akainu can melt off half of Whitebeard head in one hit - a hit which would flat out kill guys like Jack or Queen. 

Fujitora would be the most vulnerable being a non logia who likes H2H swordplay as well as his powers. I'd imagine only 2-3 YC1 would be needed as we've seen how someone like Flampe could affect someone who is >>> her, when distracted / preoccupied in a serious fight and Fujitora doesn't have the god like physicals of Kaido / Mom nor has he got big feats on the C3 level (yet - he admits he has room to improve IIRC).

Green Bull - jury is out though the longer we wait to see him the stronger I imagine his showing will be.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Quipchaque (Jul 23, 2019)

Serenity said:


> You all keep going on about holding someone off as if it is a feat worth noting - Marco didn't do any damage to any of the C3 Admirals. He only faced down and stopped them because he could no sell any attacks due to his powers. While the same could be said for them to him - that is only due to Regen. If C3 can fight for 10 days could Marco hang on that long getting shredded by their attacks and regening?
> 
> Is there any proof that a Yonko commander can even harm an on guard logia using Admiral? Superficial  damage like Jozu hitting Aokiji won't win the fight when someone like Akainu can melt off half of Whitebeard head in one hit - a hit which would flat out kill guys like Jack or Queen.
> 
> ...



It is a feat Worth noting because while it doesn't have to translate to them being equals it shows us that Oda doesn't feel like portraying a power gap is accurate so even if there was a difference in strength it us likely to be small. That is why even admiral fans post Marineford always said commander x gives high difficulty to admiral x. Rarely lower. Just ask yourself this: can Luffy hold off Kaido? Can Queen beat full power big Mom? No. And why not? Because Oda _showcased_ the gap which he did not do for commanders and admirals. And it is not like this is an accident. It has been a repeated theme that commanders hold off the Admirals without any trouble most of the times. That is why it is unreasonable to give some admirals the benefit of the doubt over a few of the commanders let alone to say that the admirals fodderize them.


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## Corax (Jul 23, 2019)

Serenity said:


> You all keep going on about holding someone off as if it is a feat worth noting - Marco didn't do any damage to any of the C3 Admirals. He only faced down and stopped them because he could no sell any attacks due to his powers. While the same could be said for them to him - that is only due to Regen. If C3 can fight for 10 days could Marco hang on that long getting shredded by their attacks and regening?
> 
> Is there any proof that a Yonko commander can even harm an on guard logia using Admiral? Superficial  damage like Jozu hitting Aokiji won't win the fight when someone like Akainu can melt off half of Whitebeard head in one hit - a hit which would flat out kill guys like Jack or Queen.
> 
> ...


Fujitora has CoO and his DF to compensate for the lack of logia powers. He won't do any worse than Aokiji,Kizaru or Akainu. In fact G3 hit did nothing to him,while Kaido's full zoan form eyes went white after the same G3 attack (though likely an outlier but still). Green Bull is featless,but likely he won't do worse than another admirals.


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## barreltheif (Jul 23, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Who are all 3 conveniently no admirals and were clearly portrayed as something above that level.



Akainu and Aokiji were admirals. Garp was a VA, so below an admiral in rank.



> Not the point. MHQ felt it was necessary to use all of them which shows that in-verse the Whitebeard pirates are perceived as far stronger than you want to make me believe.



No, that was the point. You said that it took the admirals, Garp, Sengoku, and Mihawk to secure Marineford against Whitebeard. It clearly didn't. Only the admirals and some fodder were needed. I highly, highly doubt that the WG higher ups thought that all top ranking marines + shichibukai were necessary to defeat Whitebeard. But if they did, then obviously they were wrong.


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## Sengoku (Jul 23, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> If that is so silly then why hasn't any admiral ever shown clear superiority in a direct confrontation?
> And why did it even take all 3 admirals, Garp, Sengoku and Mihawk just to secure Marineford against the Whitebeard pirates?



Lol seriously?
That is like asking why does it take 6-10 Swat members to take down just one criminal holding several people hostage.

Obviously 1 trained swat member is likely to be better than some dumbass criminal with a gun.
It's called increasing the chance of survival for your team and finishing the objective.

Save the ego-check for an actual 1v1 arena fight like the Doflamingo's Colosseum bouts, not war.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Danyboy (Jul 23, 2019)

First+second commander sholud be enough.


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## LolonoisZolo (Jul 23, 2019)

All of them and it's still not guaranteed lol Akainu faced all of WB commanders by himself and was fine afterwards.


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## Gohara (Jul 23, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I said the admirals being above Marco in almost every category does.



Outside of offense what aspects of abilities are the admirals superior to Marco in thus far?  Marco to me seems superior in defense and speed to the average admiral, and we've barely seen the admirals and Marco use Haki thus far.



barreltheif said:


> It didn't. Garp, Sengoku, and Mihawk barely did anything.



Yeah and instead the Blackbeard Pirates accomplished a lot.  Plus that is a nerfed version of Whitebeard and the Whitebeard Pirates do not have their entire crew participating in that war.  



Serenity said:


> Is there any proof that a Yonko commander can even harm an on guard logia using Admiral?



We've barely seen how yonkou commanders' offensive techniques work against the admirals because most of their clashing is off panel thus far.  I would also argue that of any high ranking yonkou commanders thus far, the Whitebeard commanders have some of the least impressive offensive abilities, Lord Katakuri for example has shown significantly more impressive offense in his arsenal thus far.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 23, 2019)

Sengoku said:


> Lol seriously?
> That is like asking why does it take 6-10 Swat members to take down just one criminal holding several people hostage.
> 
> Obviously 1 trained swat member is likely to be better than some dumbass criminal with a gun.
> ...




That sounds like some terrible excuse. Apparently the Admirals can low diff every commander yet they need to increase their chance for survival? Meh not buying that. That is like saying Akainu needs to increase his chances of survival and summon the whole MHQ against Arlong. The marines also wouldn't abandon every base to leave all other pirates in the world unchecked like that if it isn't 100% necessary.



barreltheif said:


> Akainu and Aokiji were admirals. Garp was a VA, so below an admiral in rank.
> 
> 
> 
> No, that was the point. You said that it took the admirals, Garp, Sengoku, and Mihawk to secure Marineford against Whitebeard. It clearly didn't. Only the admirals and some fodder were needed. I highly, highly doubt that the WG higher ups thought that all top ranking marines + shichibukai were necessary to defeat Whitebeard. But if they did, then obviously they were wrong.



Don't strawman my argument now. Akainu and Aokiji were also vice admirals so are they vice admiral level now? And Garp is totally below admirals he just happened to fight Roger and Whitebeard and actually earned their respect unlike the Admirals. 

Also don't spin my words I know that not everyone on the Marine side was fighting actively but what I'm saying is that the Marines did not feel like they can breathe past the Whitebeard pirates and prepared a lot more resources. Also the reason that most of these guys didn't need to fight is that they took advantage of distractions to win the battles that could have otherwise been lost.


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## barreltheif (Jul 23, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Don't strawman my argument now. Akainu and Aokiji were also vice admirals so are they vice admiral level now? And Garp is totally below admirals he just happened to fight Roger and Whitebeard and actually earned their respect unlike the Admirals.



I'm not strawmanning your argument. You don't have an argument.
You claimed that no admiral has shown superiority to top commanders (maybe you specifically meant first mates - I'm not sure).
I said that Akainu and Aokiji had (2 admirals), and that Garp had (a vice admiral).
You replied that none of those 3 were admirals (!???)



> Also don't spin my words I know that not everyone on the Marine side was fighting actively but what I'm saying is that the Marines did not feel like they can breathe past the Whitebeard pirates and prepared a lot more resources. Also the reason that most of these guys didn't need to fight is that they took advantage of distractions to win the battles that could have otherwise been lost.



Yes, if you're attacked by an empire, you're going to use your full forces to defend. That doesn't mean that the empire's forces are equal to yours. It just means that you're not an idiot. If the US were attacked by another country, it wouldn't go light on defending just because the attacker has a weaker military than the US.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 23, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> I'm not strawmanning your argument. You don't have an argument.
> You claimed that no admiral has shown superiority to top commanders (maybe you specifically meant first mates - I'm not sure).
> I said that Akainu and Aokiji had (2 admirals), and that Garp had (a vice admiral).
> You replied that none of those 3 were admirals (!???)
> ...



Ok so what rank are Akainu, Aokiji and Garp? Don't lie now to keep strawmaning my argument.

The way you describe the MHQ army and Whitebeard pirates is like saying a small  ant empire vs the whole US. No matter what you say Noone would defend against a fleet full of guys that can be fodderized by 1 or 2 admirals at most by bringing along all the most notorious officers in the world. Oda has clearly portrayed the Whitebeard pirates as a veery significant threat.


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## barreltheif (Jul 23, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Ok so what rank are Akainu, Aokiji and Garp? Don't lie now to keep strawmaning my argument.



Again, you don't have an argument. There's nothing to strawman.

You said that no admiral has shown superiority to top yonkou commanders (or again, maybe you only meant first mates).
Two examples of admirals who showed clear superiority to top yonkou commanders are Akainu and Aokiji. Garp did too, though he is a lower rank than admiral.




> The way you describe the MHQ army and Whitebeard pirates is like saying a small  ant empire vs the whole US. No matter what you say Noone would defend against a fleet full of guys that can be fodderized by 1 or 2 admirals at most by bringing along all the most notorious officers in the world. Oda has clearly portrayed the Whitebeard pirates as a veery significant threat.



Whitebeard's fleet wouldn't be fodderized by "1 or 2 admirals at most". Whitebeard alone wouldn't be fodderized by "1 or 2 admirals at most". Even Marco wouldn't be fodderized by an admiral. None of this changes the fact that admirals and other top tiers are far stronger than even the strongest commanders.


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## Bonney (Jul 24, 2019)

If Akainu fought the multiple Yonko commanders he wouldn't need to stomp or even low diff them to win comfortably - the dude can fight someone who is > each of them and his equal in a 10 day long death match. Fighting all 3 for a single day would be a walk in the park compared to 10 days and he has the offensive capacity to take off half of the worlds strongest mans head like melting a piece of soft butter. GG non logia users not named Mom or Kaido getting struck by that. Do you think any of the 3 have enough offensive power to exceed multiple island splitting Gura strikes from a blood lusted WB (which Akainu got back up from and pushed past Marco after BTW)?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sengoku (Jul 24, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That sounds like some terrible excuse. Apparently the Admirals can low diff every commander yet they need to increase their chance for survival? Meh not buying that.



I said "low diffing"?

The main problem isn't really about security and the guarantee of mission/execution success but rather you value ego instead? lol



> That is like saying Akainu needs to increase his chances of survival and summon the whole MHQ against Arlong.



Very upsetting example you used considering in One Piece, Borsalino, as a vice admiral at the time, was dispatched to fix Arlong up.



> The marines also wouldn't abandon every base to leave all other pirates in the world unchecked like that if it isn't 100% necessary.



Eh who knows? I don't think the pirates really took that golden opportunity to pillage and decisively eradicate other government owned countries when the Paramount War was going on.

Aside from the Marine fodders being killed off, the top tier Marines (vas, admirals, etc...) showed a one sided victory over the pirates thanks in part to Sengoku's brilliant strategies.

- Moby Dick destroyed
- WB dies
- Jozu gets put out of commission by Kuzan
- Marco, Vista, and others weren't able to put down Sakazuki out of commission. This only served to piss off Sakazuki even more.
- WB pirates and their allies along with the main character plus additional Revo forces, former Shichibukais, and "betrayals", couldn't guarantee the success of Ace's survival.
- Ace gets executed successfully.
- The Marine HQ, while heavily damaged, became even stronger than before after.
- WB pirates remnants scattered and dismantled.


Seems to me, the Marine forces won rather convincingly while the WB pirates got dealt with the short end of the stick.


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## Sengoku (Jul 24, 2019)

Serenity said:


> If Akainu fought the multiple Yonko commanders he wouldn't need to stomp or even low diff them to win comfortably - the dude can fight someone who is > each of them and his equal in a 10 day long death match. Fighting all 3 for a single day would be a walk in the park compared to 10 days and he has the offensive capacity to take off half of the worlds strongest mans head like melting a piece of soft butter. GG non logia users not named Mom or Kaido getting struck by that. Do you think any of the 3 have enough offensive power to exceed multiple island splitting Gura strikes from a blood lusted WB (which Akainu got back up from and pushed past Marco after BTW)?



Naw man. This is a pirates manga. And the strongest pirates are the emperors. No way in hell would I let an admiral much less a fleet admiral be stronger than my pirates!!!!1!111


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## LolonoisZolo (Jul 24, 2019)

How does anyone still believe in the YCs is beyond my comprehension... Comparing Marco to Akainu is like a naked bug vs an armored lion. The bug isn't doing any damage ever no matter how hard he tries, we even have panels showing that two bugs tried at the same time using haki and only managed to 'irritate' the lion

Reactions: Like 2


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## CaptainCommander (Jul 24, 2019)

I can't beleive this thread is still so alive lol. This boils down to two sides-

Admirals demolish because-

"They're Admirals!"

"Akainu-Sama!!!!"

Admirals have at least difficulty because-

Literally every example in the 20+ year manga.


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## Sengoku (Jul 24, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> I can't beleive this thread is still so alive lol. This boils down to two sides-
> 
> Admirals demolish because-
> 
> ...



Post #22


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## Corax (Jul 24, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> I can't beleive this thread is still so alive lol. This boils down to two sides-
> 
> Admirals demolish because-
> 
> ...


Objectively to give someone difficulty character needs to damage them. For example Marco can't damage Kizaru,Aokiji and Akainu,so he can't give them "difficulty". He can be a punching bag,but this is hardly any difficulty. But if we take old Ray for example he is able to damage Kizaru (and likely Akaiunu and Aokiji) so he can give them some difficulty.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 24, 2019)

Corax said:


> Objectively to give someone difficulty character needs to damage them. For example Marco can't damage Kizaru,Aokiji and Akainu,so he can't give them "difficulty". He can be a punching bag,but this is hardly any difficulty. But if we take old Ray for example he is able to damage Kizaru (and likely Akaiunu and Aokiji) so he can give them some difficulty.



That is a flatout lie. Marco can damage Kizaru which is why Oda didn't let him use his zoan attack form against him he can also damage Akainu as long as Akainu doesn't try to dodge with his Logia form because that is the exact reason he transformed. Aokiji is the same as Kizaru. It is also worth noting that neither Marco or Vista took damage from making contact with Akainu's magma but of course you won't bring that up...



barreltheif said:


> Again, you don't have an argument. There's nothing to strawman.
> 
> You said that no admiral has shown superiority to top yonkou commanders (or again, maybe you only meant first mates).
> Two examples of admirals who showed clear superiority to top yonkou commanders are Akainu and Aokiji. Garp did too, though he is a lower rank than admiral.
> ...



I ask again. What rank are Akainu, Aokiji and Garp? Until you answer that this discussion is over for me.


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## Corax (Jul 24, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That is a flatout lie. Marco can damage Kizaru which is why Oda didn't let him use his zoan attack form against him he can also damage Akainu as long as Akainu doesn't try to dodge with his Logia form because that is the exact reason he transformed. Aokiji is the same as Kizaru. It is also worth noting that neither Marco or Vista took damage from making contact with Akainu's magma but of course you won't bring that up...


He used his zoan claws and haki to attack Akainu but failed. He used his full zoan form to accelerate himself but Kizaru blocked his attack without any damage. He used zoan wings to accelerate himself but Aokiji didn't receive any damage.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 24, 2019)

Corax said:


> He used his zoan claws and haki to attack Akainu but failed. He used his full zoan form to accelerate himself but Kizaru blocked his attack without any damage. He used zoan wings to accelerate himself but Aokiji didn't receive any damage.




Sooo zoan wings are now more dangerous than claws and Akainu avoiding the attack with his Logia power means Marco can't damage him... Yeaaah I think we are done here.


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## CaptainCommander (Jul 24, 2019)

Corax said:


> Objectively to give someone difficulty character needs to damage them. For example Marco can't damage Kizaru,Aokiji and Akainu,so he can't give them "difficulty". He can be a punching bag,but this is hardly any difficulty. But if we take old Ray for example he is able to damage Kizaru (and likely Akaiunu and Aokiji) so he can give them some difficulty.



Lol please. The only Admiral that might be durable is *Fleet* Admiral Akainu, and that's only if he tanked instead of dodged Marco's and Vista's attack. The rest have been injured many times over.

Your definition of difficulty just makes it worse for the Admirals. Monkey Boy's Lasers couldn't touch Ray nor even slow down Marco. ISO and Ryu are even weaker so far.

Sure there was Kuzan taking out Jozu but keep in mind:

It was Kuzan, was a candidate for FA

Jozu was distracted

it was Jobber Jozu lol


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## LolonoisZolo (Jul 24, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> Lol please. The only Admiral that might be durable is *Fleet* Admiral Akainu, and that's only if he tanked instead of dodged Marco's and Vista's attack. The rest have been injured many times over.
> 
> Your definition of difficulty just makes it worse for the Admirals. Monkey Boy's Lasers couldn't touch Ray nor even slow down Marco. ISO and Ryu are even weaker so far.
> 
> ...


Injured Admirals ? When was that ? First time an admiral bled was when sneak attacked by enraged wsm. What else ?


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## GreenBull956 (Jul 24, 2019)

LolonoisZolo said:


> Injured Admirals ? When was that ? First time an admiral bled was when sneak attacked by enraged wsm. What else ?


When Jozu sneaked Aokiji , and Rayleigh cut careless Kizaru , those are it though

Reactions: Like 1


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## LolonoisZolo (Jul 24, 2019)

Ryokugyu950 said:


> When Jozu sneaked Aokiji , and Rayleigh cut careless Kizaru , those are it though


I wouldn't call that injuries though


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## GreenBull956 (Jul 24, 2019)

LolonoisZolo said:


> I wouldn't call that injuries though


Why would you not ? Though i think they don't make Aokiji & Kizaru look bad / not durable because Jozu was sneak attacking and it was Dark King with sword that cut Kizaru's cheek


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## LolonoisZolo (Jul 24, 2019)

Ryokugyu950 said:


> Why would you not ? Though i think they don't make Aokiji & Kizaru look bad / not durable because Jozu was sneak attacking and it was Dark King with sword that cut Kizaru's cheek


Technically they are injuries but we are talking very small with very little lasting time... Kizaru was fighting Rayleigh like nothing happened and Aokiji proceeded to amputate Jozu's arm. Only one who seemed a bit bothered was Akainu but who wouldn't in the whole verse present and past.
Bm who was portrayed as untouchable also got injured btw, if we follow that path.


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## Onyx Emperor (Jul 24, 2019)

More, than Whitebeard had. Akainu would body his commanders if not Shanks and his "end the war".


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## Sengoku (Jul 25, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> Your definition of difficulty just makes it worse for the Admirals. Monkey Boy's Lasers couldn't touch Ray nor even slow down Marco. ISO and Ryu are even weaker so far.



I mean Garp, a not so prime VA, put a complete halt to Marco's futile attempt to save Ace. 



> Sure there was Kuzan taking out Jozu but keep in mind:
> 
> It was Kuzan, was a candidate for FA



Well Kuzan never made it to FA so....

It is literally like saying a person failing the MCAT and then claiming he is a full fledged medical student at Yale just because he almost passed the examination. lol

That being said, admirals > YC.



> Jozu was distracted
> 
> it was Jobber Jozu lol



It is almost as if you don't want the admirals to be stronger than the YC so you give out excuses like this. 
Why are you so threatened by the idea that the admirals are stronger than YC? lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Corax (Jul 25, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> Lol please. The only Admiral that might be durable is *Fleet* Admiral Akainu, and that's only if he tanked instead of dodged Marco's and Vista's attack. The rest have been injured many times over.
> 
> Your definition of difficulty just makes it worse for the Admirals. Monkey Boy's Lasers couldn't touch Ray nor even slow down Marco. ISO and Ryu are even weaker so far.
> 
> ...


Ray isn't yonko commander. He is PK first mate. I think even technically Roger can't be considered a yonko (one of the four emperors). And as I said only Ray can give some difficulty. Jozu was a one shot material. And Macro isn't an opponent his regen has a limit (confirmed multiple times by Oda in SBS and interview) and clearly Kizaru's attack bypassed his durability (and even was an overkill as it removed his head). Kizaru easily can outlast Marco. Difference between Marco,Jozu and Ray is enormous.


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## barreltheif (Jul 25, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> Lol please. The only Admiral that might be durable is *Fleet* Admiral Akainu, and that's only if he tanked instead of dodged Marco's and Vista's attack. The rest have been injured many times over.
> Your definition of difficulty just makes it worse for the Admirals. Monkey Boy's Lasers couldn't touch Ray nor even slow down Marco. ISO and Ryu are even weaker so far.
> Sure there was Kuzan taking out Jozu but keep in mind:
> It was Kuzan, was a candidate for FA
> ...



The guy you responded to was comparing Akainu, Aokiji, and Kizaru with Marco and other yonkou commanders.
I have no idea why you're bringing Rayleigh into this. He's a top tier, rather than a yonkou commander. 
I assume by ISO and Ryu you mean Fujitora and Green Bull? How could you possibly know how Green Bull compares to the other admirals?

The one thing that I agree with you about is that jobber Jozu fucked up and got absolutely wrecked by Aokiji. That's a good name for him.




DiscoZoro20 said:


> I ask again. What rank are Akainu, Aokiji and Garp? Until you answer that this discussion is over for me.



Akainu and Aokiji were admirals. Garp was a vice admiral. I have no idea why you want me to keep repeating this.


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## MO (Jul 25, 2019)

LolonoisZolo said:


> How does anyone still believe in the YCs is beyond my comprehension... Comparing Marco to Akainu is like a naked bug vs an armored lion. The bug isn't doing any damage ever no matter how hard he tries, we even have panels showing that two bugs tried at the same time using haki and only managed to 'irritate' the lion


That armored lion still never managed to hurt the bug. Matter of fact akainu never got passed Marco during the war unless Marco was distracted.


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## barreltheif (Jul 25, 2019)

MO said:


> That armored lion still never managed to hurt the bug. Matter of fact akainu never got passed Marco during the war unless Marco was distracted.



Marco, Vista, most of the rest of the commanders, and Crocodile stare down Akainu.
*Speech about how Akainu cannot be allowed to get past them*
The next time we see Akainu, he has gotten past them and is standing over Curiel's magmafisted body.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MO (Jul 25, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> Marco, Vista, most of the rest of the commanders, and Crocodile stare down Akainu.
> *Speech about how Akainu cannot be allowed to get past them*
> The next time we see Akainu, he has gotten past them and is standing over Curiel's magmafisted body.


He beat one does not mean he got passed them. He also got help from half marines.


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## barreltheif (Jul 25, 2019)

MO said:


> He beat one does not mean he got passed them. He also got help from half marines.



He clearly got past them. Where do you think they went? You think they swore to stop Akainu, and then immediately left and went somewhere else?

No, that's a common misconception. Akainu faced off against the commanders in chapter 578. Sengoku told half the marines to fight against the WBs in 579. Shortly after that in 579, we see Akainu standing over Curiel's magmafisted body, with the marines Sengoku sent running toward him in the background, ready to fight.


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## MO (Jul 25, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> He clearly got past them. Where do you think they went? You think they swore to stop, and then immediately left and went somewhere else?
> 
> No, that's a common misconception. Akainu faced off against the commanders in chapter 578. Sengoku told half the marines to fight against the WBs in 579. Shortly after that in 579, we see Akainu standing over Curiel's magmafisted body, with the marines Sengoku sent running toward him in the background, ready to fight.


He didn't get passed them. You can still see pirates right behind Coby when he stopped akainu.  You can also see marco right behind shanks in the next chapter when he stopped akainu.


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## barreltheif (Jul 25, 2019)

MO said:


> He didn't get passed them. You can still see pirates right behind Coby when he stopped akainu.  You can also see marco right behind shanks in the next chapter when he stopped akainu.



I don't see Marco with Shanks until two chapters after he and the commanders faced off against Akainu. Even if he were in that spot behind Shanks the entire time, that would mean that he pulled back from the fight with Akainu (despite his oath to stop him), leaving Curiel behind to get magmafisted.

What do the pirates behind Coby have to do with anything?


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## MO (Jul 25, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> I don't see Marco with Shanks until two chapters after he and the commanders faced off against Akainu. Even if he were in that spot behind Shanks the entire time, that would mean that he pulled back from the fight with Akainu (despite his oath to stop him), leaving Curiel behind to get magmafisted.
> 
> What do the pirates behind Coby have to do  ith anything?


he literally did not move.

this is one they start fighting. You can see the battleship they are standing next too.



this is when coby stopped him. You can see he never left he is still at the same spot next to that battle ship.



you can see Fossa and his flaming sword in the second panel. They were still there.


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## CaptainCommander (Jul 25, 2019)

Corax said:


> *Ray isn't yonko commander. He is PK first mate*. I think even technically Roger can't be considered a yonko (one of the four emperors). And as I said only Ray can give some difficulty. Jozu was a one shot material. And Macro isn't an opponent his regen has a limit (confirmed multiple times by Oda in SBS and interview) and clearly Kizaru's attack bypassed his durability (and even was an overkill as it removed his head). Kizaru easily can outlast Marco. Difference between Marco,Jozu and Ray is enormous.



The only difference between Ray and other First mates is the unearned hype idiots give him to keep their naive view of the Admirals alive. First Ray was the exception, then Marco was an exception, and finally Benn is an exception. At what point do Admiral wankers admit that FMs=Admral is the rule and not the exception??


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## Corax (Jul 25, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> The only difference between Ray and other First mates is the unearned hype idiots give him to keep their naive view of the Admirals alive. First Ray was the exception, then Marco was an exception, and finally Benn is an exception. At what point do Admiral wankers admit that FMs=Admral is the rule and not the exception??


Ray has feats,not hype. He was the only one to damage admiral (Marco failed all his 3 attempts) and the only one with good enough CoO to prevent Kizaru from using yata mirror (feat that only yonko WB replicated). He is Luffy's mentor that tough him all advanced haki types (including new hype advanced CoA that will be used to beat Kaido). He is far above any FM. His feats are in yonko/admiral category.


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## barreltheif (Jul 25, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> The only difference between Ray and other First mates is the unearned hype idiots give him to keep their naive view of the Admirals alive. First Ray was the exception, then Marco was an exception, and finally Benn is an exception. At what point do Admiral wankers admit that FMs=Admral is the rule and not the exception??



You're deeply confused. Rayleigh is not, in any way, a yonkou commander. He is no more a yonkou commander than Kizaru.

Marco was a yonkou commander, and Beckman is a yonkou commander. There is nothing suggesting that the gap between them and top tiers is any less huge than the gap between Katakuri/Queen and top tiers.


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## Magentabeard (Jul 25, 2019)

The only top tier yonkou commaner is the first mate, and first mates can beat the weakest admiral (Fujitora)


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## Sherlōck (Jul 25, 2019)

WBP had 1600 members and 43 allied ships with crews.

Sengoku ordering half of the marines to fight WBP means fight the whole lot of them, not just the commanders.

This dishonest applying of statements to suit own personal view will never stop in VS battle .


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## barreltheif (Jul 25, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> WBP had 1600 members and 43 allied ships with crews.
> Sengoku ordering half of the marines to fight WBP means fight the whole lot of them, not just the commanders.
> This dishonest applying of statements to suit own personal view will never stop in VS battle .



Sengoku also gave that order the chapter after Akainu faced off against all the commanders. People love to forget that.


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## CaptainCommander (Jul 25, 2019)

Corax said:


> Ray has feats,not hype. He was the only one to damage admiral (Marco failed all his 3 attempts) and the only one with good enough CoO to prevent Kizaru from using yata mirror (feat that only yonko WB replicated). He is Luffy's mentor that tough him all advanced haki types (including new hype advanced CoA that will be used to beat Kaido). He is far above any FM. His feats are in yonko/admiral category.



LMAO you're clearly not paying attention to my posts nor one piece. What's with this delusion of yours that Admirals are so durable? They've never done anything of note in that regard. At best there was Akainu, their boss, and even that is only if he didn't dodge it.
You're pretty delusional about everything else as well. Tata mirror being some great top tier move? As if. Luffy defeating WSC with simple CoA? Your fanfic sucks. Next you'll tell me that fat guy with advanced CoA is the second strongest character, after Buggy.



barreltheif said:


> You're deeply confused. Rayleigh is not, in any way, a yonkou commander. He is no more a yonkou commander than Kizaru.
> 
> Marco was a yonkou commander, and Beckman is a yonkou commander. There is nothing suggesting that the gap between them and top tiers is any less huge than the gap between Katakuri/Queen and top tiers.



You're confused cause you can't read what's been going on. Kizaru, Ray, YCs, they're all more or less the same.


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## LolonoisZolo (Jul 25, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> LMAO you're clearly not paying attention to my posts nor one piece. What's with this delusion of yours that Admirals are so durable? They've never done anything of note in that regard. At best there was Akainu, their boss, and even that is only if he didn't dodge it.
> You're pretty delusional about everything else as well. Tata mirror being some great top tier move? As if. Luffy defeating WSC with simple CoA? Your fanfic sucks. Next you'll tell me that fat guy with advanced CoA is the second strongest character, after Buggy.
> 
> 
> ...


Lol sooooo loud.... what the hell is that? And it speaks condescending on top of that... 
Rayleigh damaged an admiral, was described as a legend alongside WB by Garp who fought Roger multiple times, did the whole calm belt by swimming ect ect what did Marco or Katakuri do to be put on the same level ? Grow up child daaamn

Reactions: Like 1


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## CaptainCommander (Jul 25, 2019)

LolonoisZolo said:


> Lol sooooo loud.... what the hell is that? And it speaks condescending on top of that...
> Rayleigh damaged an admiral, was described as a legend alongside WB by Garp who fought Roger multiple times, did the whole calm belt by swimming ect ect what did Marco or Katakuri do to be put on the same level ? Grow up child daaamn



Hypocrite much? Speaks about condescending while calling one a child, ha.

You're right though, Ray was and still is powerful. You forgot he fought Kizaru with an age gap. So what exactly Kizaru done to be put on their level?  Comparable at best but to put him well above is just blatant wank.


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## GreenBull956 (Jul 25, 2019)

So Rayleigh isn't exceptional compared to the likes of Marco , that is idiotic


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## Gohara (Jul 30, 2019)

Sengoku said:


> I mean Garp



Arguably superior to the admirals.  



barreltheif said:


> You claimed that no admiral has shown superiority to top commanders (maybe you specifically meant first mates - I'm not sure).



Which, arguably outside of pre time skip Akainu, none have.  And Akainu has shown superiority to Aokiji, another admiral, and generally has superior feats to the other admirals.  Even then it isn't like Akainu has shown significant superiority to Marco, the most powerful yonkou commander that he has arguably shown superiority to thus far.  Unless Marco is the most powerful yonkou commander in the series, we can't factually say that he is superior to all yonkou commanders.



barreltheif said:


> Yes, if you're attacked by an empire, you're going to use your full forces to defend. That doesn't mean that the empire's forces are equal to yours.



True in some cases, however it seems rather odd that they would allocate so much of their forces for one war when the yonkou crew in question represents a fraction of the pirates out there.  If using a couple admirals to defend against other pirates in other areas of the universe would be useful, and obviously it would, then why use them in a war that they should be able to win even excluding those couple admirals using your power rankings?

Plus, the antagonists in that arc on multiple occasions suggested that the protagonists winning that match up is easily possible.  Yet your power rankings suggests that the marines have a significant advantage.



barreltheif said:


> You think they swore to stop Akainu, and then immediately left and went somewhere else?



Akainu got around them, however virtually all of those characters are okay after the confrontation with Akainu, also suggesting that he didn't do anything significant to most of them.  Which is where the other marines in that confrontation could come into play.



barreltheif said:


> Rayleigh is not, in any way, a yonkou commander. He is no more a yonkou commander than Kizaru.



Not really.  A pirate king crew is essentially the number one most powerful yonkou crew even if that crew is decisively superior, using that argument would make sense if we were discussing prime Rayleigh, however we're discussing a significantly inferior version of Rayleigh.



Serenity said:


> If Akainu fought the multiple Yonko commanders



Your argument assumes a lot about that match up, we have barely seen any of that confrontation thus far.  Plus, Marco is arguably the only high ranking yonkou commander in that confrontation.



Serenity said:


> he has the offensive capacity to take off half of the worlds strongest mans head like melting a piece of soft butter.



A significantly nerfed, possibly non-Haki using version of Whitebeard.  I'm sure that version of Whitebeard still has awesome defense, however that title has nothing to do with that feat, since the version of the character with that title is significantly superior to the version in that match up.



LolonoisZolo said:


> Rayleigh damaged admiral



Circular reasoning, in that case.



LolonoisZolo said:


> was described as a legend



From the accomplishments that the character accomplished in his prime.



LolonoisZolo said:


> did the whole calm belt by swimming



Impressive, however there aren't any feats to compare it to yet.



Ryokugyu950 said:


> So Rayleigh isn't exceptional compared to the likes of Marco , that is idiotic



We're discussing old version of Rayleigh.


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## Luke (Aug 3, 2019)

Gohara said:


> Even then it isn't like Akainu has shown significant superiority to Marco, the most powerful yonkou commander that he has arguably shown superiority to thus far.



Isn't decisively defeating Aokiji far superior to anything Marco has shown? IIRC Marco's most impressive feat in Marineford was blocking one of Kizaru's attacks and then kicking him into a building, which Borsalino immediately emerged from fine. Unless you mean a direct Akainu vs Marco comparison, which outside of Marco and Vista landing simultaneous blows on Akainu that don't do much to slow him down, there isn't really one (Marco blocks one of his attacks aimed at someone else at one point too, I guess?), but I'd still say that encounter clearly put Akainu in the more favorable light, considering he was on his own and Marco was hitting him with the help of the next strongest member of the Whitebeard Pirates since Jozu was put out of commission.

Akainu's portrayal is also pretty clearly superior to Marco's, I think. One of the main antagonists of the series who personally killed the protagonist's brother and is now in charge of the main fighting force of the World Government vs. a Yonkou First Mate...? Not that the latter isn't a highly prestigious position that renders one stronger than 99% of the characters in the series, but still, surely you'd favor the former there.


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## Gohara (Aug 6, 2019)

It first has to be proven where Aokiji ranks in comparison to Marco and/or characters that Marco has clashed with, Marco has matched up on par with Kizaru, so decisively superior to Aokiji doesn't seem like a significantly superior feat to me.  We also know that most high ranking yonkou commanders are comparable to Doflamingo, and we know that Marco is superior to most of those high ranking yonkou commanders.

Aokiji likely seems to think that character is such an opponent that he can't best with ease evidenced from Aokiji suggesting Doflamingo to be the opposite of the type of universe that he wants, for me to think that Aokiji is significantly superior to Marco requires me to think that Doflamingo is an easy match up for Aokiji.  Outside of being a worthy opponent I'm not sure what reason Aokiji would have for not attempting to capture that character, so either Aokiji needs an awesome reason for not wanting to capture that character or Aokiji isn't significantly superior to high ranking yonkou commanders.  

It's true though that there has yet to be significant match ups between high ranking yonkou commanders and admirals, which is one of the reasons that I don't rank admirals significantly superior to them.  I agree that Akainu is likely superior to Marco, however there's no evidence that Marco is an around mid difficulty match up for Akainu rather than for example an around high+ difficulty match up.  I would note also that I'm referring to pre time skip Akainu, current Akainu I can see being solidly superior to high ranking yonkou commanders.


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## Sabco (Aug 9, 2019)

People make it as if it's a fact that Issho is dead equal to Sakazuki and Kuzan. There's absolutely no evidence that Issho is on the C3 level, let alone Sakazuki's level. Sakazuki is the leader of the WG main military with 32 years of experience and should be even stronger after his Haki bloom against Kuzan, has the greatest feat of defeating another Top Tier and is the most highlighted Admiral sovfar. Issho sharing his Admiral title is not an argument, it doesn't translate to being dead equal. Doflamingo and Mihawk are both Warlords, Garp and Tokikake are both Vice Admirals, Katakuri and Snack are both Sweet Commanders, Hawkins and Sheepshead are both Headliners and the list goes on.

that being said, Issho and Greenbull are close to Sakazuki but not dead equal as some are implying.


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## AmitDS (Aug 9, 2019)

2 commanders I'd say clearly beat an admiral though I wouldn't be surprised if post time skip we see Admiral = YC1 being shown.  I mean I can't see Fujitora beating Katakuri and Marco in an all out fight nor can I see Kizaru beating Beckman and Shiryu if they go all out against him, to list a few examples.

Even YC in general could beat an admiral 2 vs 1 in some cases if we consider that Vista (supposedly YC 2) could stand up to people like Mihawk while Marco (YC1) could stand up to admirals pre time skip.


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