# 5 Itachis vs. Oonoki



## Nikushimi (Oct 30, 2013)

I felt like being an asshole just so I could make a point.


*Location:* 5 Kage vs. Madara
*Distance:* 5m
*Knowledge:* Full
*Mindset:* In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-The Itachis are alive and sick.

*Scenario 2:* The Itachis are Edo Tensei.


I heard Oonoki could beat 5 Susano'o-wielding Edo Madaras...


----------



## Monna (Oct 30, 2013)

I assume this is similar the the Kakashi kamui argument...


----------



## Monna (Oct 30, 2013)

Anyway, the jinton can be dodged. That's 10 sharingan.


----------



## Jagger (Oct 30, 2013)

Onoki loses. I'd debate for Onoki (or maybe not) if this was a simple 1v1 match, but 5 Itachi are way too much.

First of all, Onok is not using his better variation of Jinton right at the start of the fight because he has never done that. The only reason why he did it was because they he was pushed more than enough by *25* Susano'O clones made by Uchiha Madara himself. Also, unlike Madara, Itachi does not play games and doesn't waste a move.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 30, 2013)

I feel like this thread demands some sort of witty answer, but meh.

One Itachi defeats Onoki through skillful application of Genjutsu to create an opening. Onoki doesn't have any solid counter to illusions, other than attempting to avoid eye contact. While he somewhat demonstrated proficiency in this against Madara, Itachi has multiple means of circumventing traditional counters. Even if Onoki manages to effectively avoid _all_ of Itachi's illusions, Itachi's simply to majestic for the old man. Onoki would end up Jinton'ing a clone in a conceited manner, only to spontaneously combust because the real Itachi pulled one of his magical clone feints and took cover in a blindspot. Onoki lets his guard down as he'll never know the thing he disassembled was a fake, and boom; paneled by instantaneous fire spawning. 

Now, that's a pretty useless point I just made, as Itachi can just ruin Onoki's day with Shuriken at 5 meters. Sasuke needed to prepare a special summoning Jutsu to deal with Itachi's seemingly bottomless bag of Shuriken launched with his ridiculous hand speed. Even if Onoki somehow could erect a Golem to block them (he can't), that's when the hidden clone (that was created without Onoki noticing) fires off more Shuriken from his blindspot. 

The 5 Edo Itachi get on top of Onoki and invent "quintuple penetration," and they continue performing said penetration forever since immortality and shit (Onoki enjoys every moment).


----------



## Ersa (Oct 30, 2013)

One Edo Itachi would curbstomp Onoki, living Itachi is a closer match but I'd still favour him. 

The 5 Itachi's play Susanoo volleyball with Onoki.


----------



## ChaddyMan1 (Oct 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I felt like being an asshole just so I could make a point.
> 
> 
> *Location:* 5 Kage vs. Madara
> ...



Good thread Good Sir  I've heard worse today... People have been saying Onoki can see and beat 5 Maito Gais while not knowing where the Gais are at. AND THEY HAVE THE 7TH GATE OPEN


----------



## kaminogan (Oct 30, 2013)

as long as they dont use soosano ohnoki has a chance,

but with all the speed, clones and crows going around its a bit overwhelming,

remember ohnoki didn't beat 5 madara clones, 

the gokage beat 25,


----------



## Turrin (Oct 30, 2013)

It's hilarious that your so insecure about 5 Itachi's ability to win against Onoki, 5v1, that you felt the need to skew conditions in their favor; 5m


----------



## Trojan (Oct 30, 2013)

Onoki > itachi in whatever form. However, he will more likely lose to 5 edos of him.

Edit: Serious question, what does edo itachi have that make him better than Madara's clones?


----------



## Rocky (Oct 30, 2013)

Turrin said:


> It's hilarious that your so insecure about 5 Itachi's ability to win against Onoki, 5v1, that you felt the need to skew conditions in their favor; 5m




I guess you don't realize that 5 meters would be the distance that Onoki began his battle with the 5 Madara clones.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I feel like this thread demands some sort of witty answer, but meh.
> 
> One Itachi defeats Onoki through skillful application of Genjutsu to create an opening. Onoki doesn't have any solid counter to illusions, other than attempting to avoid eye contact. While he somewhat demonstrated proficiency in this against Madara, Itachi has multiple means of circumventing traditional counters. Even if Onoki manages to effectively avoid _all_ of Itachi's illusions, Itachi's simply to majestic for the old man. Onoki would end up Jinton'ing a clone in a conceited manner, only to spontaneously combust because the real Itachi pulled one of his magical clone feints and took cover in a blindspot. Onoki lets his guard down as he'll never know the thing he disassembled was a fake, and boom; paneled by instantaneous fire spawning.
> 
> ...

















Kyokan said:


> One Edo Itachi would curbstomp Onoki, living Itachi is a closer match but I'd still favour him.
> 
> The 5 Itachi's play Susanoo volleyball with Onoki.



That gave me...such...the perfect visual...



ChaddyMan1 said:


> Good thread Good Sir  I've heard worse today... People have been saying Onoki can see and beat 5 Maito Gais while not knowing where the Gais are at.



Gai moves @ 300km/h.

Oonoki don't.

He gets pwned by a kick moving @ 300km/h.



kaminogan said:


> remember ohnoki didn't beat 5 madara clones,
> 
> the gokage beat 25,



^An important distinction that I wish more people understood.



Turrin said:


> It's hilarious that your so insecure about 5 Itachi's ability to win against Onoki, 5v1, that you felt the need to skew conditions in their favor; 5m



It's funny and yet so telling that you think a 5m starting distance is "skewing conditions in Itachi's favor," as opposed to just placing both fighters in the same effective range and letting their speed and offensive abilities account for what happens next.

EDIT: And as Rocky pointed out, that's about how far away Oonoki began his confrontation with the Madara clones. Actually, that distance looked shorter than 5m. It's funny how that only becomes a handicap when he's facing Itachi...


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 30, 2013)

Elia said:


> Onoki > itachi in whatever form. However, he will more likely lose to 5 edos of him.



Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say,

Edo Itachi>living sick Itachi>Muu>Oonoki.



> Edit: Serious question, what does edo itachi have that make him better than Madara's clones?



Greater versatility and speed.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say,
> 
> Edo Itachi>living sick Itachi>Muu>Oonoki.
> 
> ...



- No, just no. Onoki's feats prove that he's stronger than itachi. 
- Can you prove that?


----------



## Ersa (Oct 30, 2013)

I can't treat Wood clones (even Madara's) with much seriousness after Madara beat Hashirama's *Sage*-enhanced wood clones while sitting down in his ribcage Susanoo. Even 5v1 against Kages who are extremely weak in CQC (Mei, Gaara), they barely landed any significant hits.

Edo Itachi's complete Susanoo would plow through the 5 Madara clone's Susanoo with ease, it'd be like watching Ei fight 5 Konohamarus.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 30, 2013)

Elia said:


> - No, just no. Onoki's feats prove that he's stronger than itachi.



What feats would those be?



> - Can you prove that?



Not directly, but I can form a pretty strong inductive argument based on the performance of Madara's clones against the five Kage as far as speed is concerned; versatility speaks for itself, given that they used nothing except Susano'o and (exactly once) Genjutsu.

There's also the following consideration, for which Kyokan kindly beat me to the punch:



Kyokan said:


> I can't treat Wood clones (even Madara's) with much seriousness after Madara beat Hashirama's *Sage*-enhanced wood clones while sitting down in his ribcage Susanoo. Even 5v1 against Kages who are extremely weak in CQC (Mei, Gaara), they barely landed any significant hits.



^^



> Edo Itachi's complete Susanoo would plow through the 5 Madara clone's Susanoo with ease, it'd be like watching Ei fight 5 Konohamarus.



And just when I was beginning to think this thread wasn't going to get a better visual than the whole "Susano'o volleyball" thing...


----------



## Trojan (Oct 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> What feats would those be?
> 
> Not directly, but I can form a pretty strong inductive argument based on the performance of Madara's clones against the five Kage as far as speed is concerned; versatility speaks for itself, given that they used nothing except Susano'o and (exactly once) Genjutsu.
> 
> ...



- Defeating the 5 clones that he fought even though those clones
1- Have better and stronger EMS, not only MS.
2- Have the rinngan. 
3- Susanoo V3 which is in a higher level than Itachi's
4- Stronger base jutsus, and perhaps even speed if they are as  fast as Madara. 

he even defeated one of Hashi's strongest  jutsu with one attack, not to mention he stopped
Madara's Meteors, and that's all after fighting the 2nd Mizukage and Mu. 


-  I think they were good enough, they defeated Mei, and attacked Gaara and overwhelmed him.
they caught A, and wounded Tsunade with their attack. They only failed against Onoki. 

-- I don't know how did you know all of that win their battle was off paneled for 10 chapters! 
God knows what they were doing during that time!


----------



## Ersa (Oct 30, 2013)

Elia said:


> - Defeating the 5 clones that he fought even though those clones
> 1- Have better and stronger EMS, not only MS.
> 2- Have the rinngan.
> 3- Susanoo V3 which is in a higher level than Itachi's
> ...


Madara's shown no MS jutsu, clones can't use PS. Itachi's V4 Susanoo is much stronger than those V3 Susanoos. You aren't seriously suggesting that clones with a portion of Madara's chakra are faster than Itachi who is probably just as fast as Madara to begin with? 

The clones aren't that strong, Hashirama's therotically similar clones (given Sage mode, see Naruto's sage mode clones vs base) were crushed by a Madara sitting on his ass, something Itachi would easily replicate.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 30, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> I can't treat Wood clones (even Madara's) with much seriousness after Madara beat Hashirama's *Sage*-enhanced wood clones while sitting down in his ribcage Susanoo.


to be fair, Madara tricked hashi's wood clone into thinking he wasn't going to fight it then somewhere down the line he shanked it.



Kyokan said:


> Even 5v1 against Kages who are extremely weak in CQC (Mei, Gaara), they barely landed any significant hits.


that's probably because they were just goofing around with the gokages or hit with massive offpanel PIS.  Or perhaps they only started using their susanoos against those gokages right before we were shown them fighting because honestly there is no way that Mei should last 5 seconds against 5 susanoos that are durable enough to just run through her jutsu.



Kyokan said:


> Edo Itachi's complete Susanoo would plow through the 5 Madara clone's Susanoo with ease, it'd be like watching Ei fight 5 Konohamarus.


Nah, those susanoos were just as durable as a susanoo coming from madara.  Which is why tsunade doesn't put a dent in the V3's when she punches them despite cracking madara's big ribcage with her physical hits.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 30, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Madara's shown no MS jutsu, clones can't use PS. Itachi's V4 Susanoo is much stronger than those V3 Susanoos. You aren't seriously suggesting that clones with a portion of Madara's chakra are faster than Itachi who is probably just as fast as Madara to begin with?
> 
> The clones aren't that strong, Hashirama's therotically similar clones (given Sage mode, see Naruto's sage mode clones vs base) were crushed by a Madara sitting on his ass, something Itachi would easily replicate.



- does not mean that he does not have them. @.@
- I did not say they could. 
- I don't think Itachi's susanoo is V4 because obviously the susanoo with legs is on a higher level. Also, even IF I agreed that itachi's susanoo is stronger, unfortunately itachi himself is not, and he won't last for long. 

- I only stated a possibility.  
- Hashi's clones are fodders' level, I have always believed in that. However, Madara's clones
are NOT, they have the susanoo after all.  
Also, Hashi's clones does NOT have SM.  

Again, any of the Gokage would've been able to defeat those clones without any difficult, but
we are talking about madara's clones WITH SUSANOO.


----------



## Ersa (Oct 30, 2013)

Elia said:


> - does not mean that he does not have them. @.@
> - I did not say the could.
> - I don't think Itachi's susanoo is V4 because obviously the susanoo with legs is on a higher level. Also, even IF I agreed that itachi's susanoo is stronger, unfortunately itachi himself is not, and he won't last for long.
> 
> ...


- No use arguing that here then.
- Yes you did, you said the clones are faster. Hint: They aren't.
- Itachi's has armour, a shield and a legendary blade and has the full chakra of Itachi behind it. Why would a weaker variant using a portion of Madara's chakra be stronger? Use your brain, man  Also this is Edo Itachi, his chakra regenerates, he used Amaterasu on a crow when living he would never use it unless he had to 

No they're not, Hashirama's clones should be almost as strong as Madara's. Because their base stats are similar, chakra levels are the same and they were made while Hashirama was in Sage Mode hence boosted by senjutsu. 

Prove the Gokage would beat them, I think it's possible 5 Hashirama clones would give some of the Gokage wood in uncomfortable places.


----------



## RBL (Oct 30, 2013)

oonoki, 

1/4 of armless sick itachi >>>>>>> 5 onokis.

OT: oonoki is way too overrated.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It's funny and yet so telling that you think a 5m starting distance is "skewing conditions in Itachi's favor," as opposed to just placing both fighters in the same effective range and letting their speed and offensive abilities account for what happens next.
> 
> EDIT: And as Rocky pointed out, that's about how far away Oonoki began his confrontation with the Madara clones. Actually, that distance looked shorter than 5m. It's funny how that only becomes a handicap when he's facing Itachi...


1. So ether your reading comprehension is so low that you've read this manga for at least 5-years and still failed to realize certain characters are more effective at certain ranges. Or just making up BS to try an justify your extremely transparent insecurities of Onoki beating Itachi 1v5, if the range was different. Ether way fucking hilarious dude :rofl

2. The whole idea of this match is one big childish lie in the first place, as no made the claim your stating they did. People don't believe Onoki can beat 5 Madaras, they believe he can beat 5 Madara-clones (25 at full strength), because he did just that in the manga. They also believe that has certain implication about how he would perform 1v1 against certain abilities of Itachi; not against 5 Itachi's. So your just pulling this shit out of your ass and than trying to say we'll let's look at this factually, but the entire thing is predicated on a lie; so why should anyone give a shit about distance Onoki started against Madara-clones (something you clearly weren't even aware of when making the thread), which is so far removed from the reality of this thread and the very real insecurities you clearly have over whether Itachi could win 5v1, that you needed to give him the distance advantage.

3. The fact that you don't simply change it, just proves how insecure you are, which is funny, because for someone who is usually incredibly verbose in their wanking of Itachi, you are proving yourself to be less secure in his ability to win than pretty much anyone else in this thread


----------



## Ersa (Oct 30, 2013)

Turrin said:


> 1. So ether your reading comprehension is so low that you've read this manga for at least 5-years and still failed to realize certain characters are more effective at certain ranges. Or just making up BS to try an justify your extremely transparent insecurities of Onoki beating Itachi 1v5, if the range was different. Ether way fucking hilarious dude :rofl
> 
> 2. The whole idea of this match is one big childish lie in the first place, as no made the claim your stating they did. People don't believe Onoki can beat 5 Madaras, they believe he can beat 5 Madara-clones (25 at full strength), because he did just that in the manga. They also believe that has certain implication about how he would perform 1v1 against certain abilities of Itachi; not against 5 Itachi's. So your just pulling this shit out of your ass and than trying to say we'll let's look at this factually, but the entire thing is predicated on a lie; so why should anyone give a shit about distance Onoki started against Madara-clones (something you clearly weren't even aware of when making the thread), which is so far removed from the reality of this thread and the very real insecurities you clearly have over whether Itachi could win 5v1, that you needed to give him the distance advantage.
> 
> 3. The fact that you don't simply change it, just proves how insecure you are, which is funny, because for someone who is usually incredibly verbose in their wanking of Itachi, you are proving yourself to be less secure in his ability to win than pretty much anyone else in this thread


Does distance honestly make that much a difference? It's 5v1, it means little here. Even if it was say 15m then the 5 Itachi's each Shunshin in a different direction, light Onoki up with Amaterasu, skewer him with a Susanoo blade then eat him like a kebab.

There has to be a significant tier difference for one shinobi to win against 5, Onoki would struggle to beat 1 let alone 5


----------



## Turrin (Oct 30, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Does distance honestly make that much a difference? It's 5v1, it means little here. Even if it was say 15m then the 5 Itachi's each Shunshin in a different direction, light Onoki up with Amaterasu, skewer him with a Susanoo blade then eat him like a kebab.
> 
> There has to be a significant tier difference for one shinobi to win against 5, Onoki would struggle to beat 1 let alone 5



Of course it doesn't which is why it's so funny that Niku is so insecure about 5 itachi winning that he feels the need to further skew things in their favor


----------



## Trojan (Oct 30, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> - No use arguing that here then.
> - Yes you did, you said the clones are faster. Hint: They aren't.
> - Itachi's has armour, a shield and a legendary blade and has the full chakra of Itachi behind it. Why would a weaker variant using a portion of Madara's chakra be stronger? Use your brain, man  Also this is Edo Itachi, his chakra regenerates, he used Amaterasu on a crow when living he would never use it unless he had to
> 
> ...



- I said "Perhaps," @.@
- I really did not get this part "has the full chakra of Itachi behind it,"  may you clear that up? 
- Will, this portion of Madara's chakra is more likely more than Itachi's full chakra who only
has as much chakra as Ino :rofl

- being edo does not mean he has more chakra though, it's only make it renew faster. @.@
but, perhaps you are right, Onoki's chakra is not that big either. 

- I still don't think that Hashi's clones have the SM chakra, otherwise, Kishi would have made
them with SM. , but Hashi is not on Naruto's level with those thing (making his clones using SM)

- oh well, they already defeated them with Susanoo. 

anyway, I give up, I don't like long debates, you win.


----------



## Ersa (Oct 30, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Of course it doesn't which is why it's so funny that Niku is so insecure about 5 itachi winning that he feels the need to further skew things in their favor


But the end result doesn't change in the least.

This match is no different from Juubito vs. Tenten, should he send her to the moon or just blitz and break her neck? The end result is the same, nothing changes it so he doesn't need to change anything.


----------



## IchLiebe (Oct 30, 2013)

I love dumb threads. If only people would read the manga. If 1 Oonoki can beat 1 Itachi, he can beat 5.

Oonoki low dif 10/10, BOTH SCENARIO'S.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 30, 2013)

Elia said:


> - Defeating the 5 clones that he fought even though those clones
> 1- Have better and stronger EMS, not only MS.



Stronger eyes don't make the stronger shinobi; Pain's revival path has Rinnegan yet it would not stand a chance even against someone like Kakashi.



> 2- Have the rinngan.



So what?



> 3- Susanoo V3 which is in a higher level than Itachi's





Uh, no; those clone Susano'o were incomplete (you can still see their ribs), and Itachi is actually capable of making a complete version (albeit without legs).



> 4- Stronger base jutsus,



What base Jutsu? All they used was Susano'o.



> and perhaps even speed if they are as  fast as Madara.



Moku Bunshin aren't as fast as the original; it's worth noting that Madara commented on the inadequate speed of his Moku Bunshin here.



> he even defeated one of Hashi's strongest  jutsu with one attack, not to mention he stopped
> Madara's Meteors, and that's all after fighting the 2nd Mizukage and Mu.



He was healed by Tsunade before he fought Madara; before then, he wasn't able to use Jinton at all- even against the Mizukage, before Madara showed up. Gaara helped him stop the asteroid. As for countering Mokuton, that is something Amaterasu or Susano'o could possibly accomplish as well.



> -  I think they were good enough, they defeated Mei, and attacked Gaara and overwhelmed him.



It took five of them just to land a hit on Mei and five of them to overpower Gaara; Itachi is stronger than both of them, more obviously in Mei's case.

It's also worth pointing out that the original Madara broke through Gaara's and Oonoki's combined defenses with just one Susano'o, but it took five clone Susano'o to get through Gaara's basic sand wall.



> they caught A,



A was caught because he was distracted by Tsunade.



> and wounded Tsunade with their attack.



Her speed is significantly inferior to Itachi's, and she was still able to fight the clones without being overwhelmed by their speed; she even got behind one and knocked it down.



> They only failed against Onoki.



They didn't fail against Oonoki; after he slowed them down with weight manipulation, they got back up and he had to use a super-charged Jinton with Tsunade's help to get rid of them.



> -- I don't know how did you know all of that win their battle was off paneled for 10 chapters!
> God knows what they were doing during that time!



Granted.

But what else did Madara really show in that fight, besides some large Katon Ninjutsu, Mokuton, chakra absorption, and Susano'o? What little fighting we DID see between the Kage and the clones consisted of nothing but physical attacks with Susano'o, and Genjutsu when he got the chance to restrain one of them.

Look, I'm going to level with you; once this happened, it was the final nail in the coffin for this debate. Moku Bunshin are far weaker than the original. I mean, Madara implicitly denigrates them as being less than the genuine article. At this point, you are fighting an uphill battle if you are expecting to show that the Madara clones were in any way comparable to the real deal.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 30, 2013)

Turrin said:


> 1. So ether your reading comprehension is so low that you've read this manga for at least 5-years and still failed to realize certain characters are more effective at certain ranges. Or just making up BS to try an justify your extremely transparent insecurities of Onoki beating Itachi 1v5, if the range was different. Ether way fucking hilarious dude :rofl



I know different characters can be more or less effective at different ranges, but 5m is a range at which Oonoki and Itachi are both 100% effective (excluding melee, which isn't really going to matter). Again, Oonoki was within 5m of Madara's clones when they started fighting, and you don't seem to have any qualms about taking that fight at (extremely superficial) face value.

Also, no one in their right mind would say Oonoki beats five Itachis, no matter what the distance is.



> 2. The whole idea of this match is one big childish lie in the first place, as no made the claim your stating they did. People don't believe Onoki can beat 5 Madaras, they believe he can beat 5 Madara-clones (25 at full strength), because he did just that in the manga. They also believe that has certain implication about how he would perform 1v1 against certain abilities of Itachi; not against 5 Itachi's. So your just pulling this shit out of your ass and than trying to say we'll let's look at this factually, but the entire thing is predicated on a lie;



What you just said sounds exactly like you are affirming "the lie," because that little parenthetical note seems to be implying that the Madara clones were equivalent to the original (you are saying they were at full power; I can't tell if you mean Madara's full power or some as-yet-unquantified full power for the clones). What about Oonoki beating 25 full-power Madaras or even 5 of them or even _one_ of them is remotely justifiable? Even after superweighting some of them, they kept coming and he needed Tsunade's help to blow them all away.The manga makes it pretty clear that Moku Bunshin represent only a fraction of the original shinobi's power, so even that feat isn't necessarily a proper reflection of what he could do against the real Madara.



> so why should anyone give a shit about distance Onoki started against Madara-clones (something you clearly weren't even aware of when making the thread), which is so far removed from the reality of this thread



I don't get what you mean, because the reality of this thread is a 5m starting distance, which is about what Oonoki had when he faced the Madara clones.



> and the very real insecurities you clearly have over whether Itachi could win 5v1, that you needed to give him the distance advantage.



You have still neglected to explain how this distance is advantageous for Itachi, rather than simply reflecting the fact that he is a superior shinobi who decisively overwhelms the Tsuchikage if simply placed close enough to do it.



> 3. The fact that you don't simply change it, just proves how insecure you are,



I'm not going to change the conditions simply because you throw a temper tantrum over Oonoki losing under them.



> which is funny, because for someone who is usually incredibly verbose in their wanking of Itachi, you are proving yourself to be less secure in his ability to win than pretty much anyone else in this thread



No, what's funny is how offended you are by the very existence of this thread. It's also funny how you are accusing me of "insecurity," yet you are the one chanting it like a mantra in every paragraph you have typed so far.

I never had any doubts about 5 Itachis beating Oonoki when I made this thread, or even one Itachi beating Oonoki, or even one MS-restricted Itachi beating Oonoki. This thread was just something I decided to post for my own mindless, cruel enjoyment. I already had a pretty good idea of what the general consensus would be and I just wanted make sure it got out in the open.



Turrin said:


> Of course it doesn't which is why it's so funny that Niku is so insecure about 5 itachi winning that he feels the need to further skew things in their favor



Nothing is skewed in Itachi's favor here, other than the fact that he is faster than Oonoki and a better shinobi in general; but that's innate rather than circumstantial.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 30, 2013)

Turrin said:


> 1. So ether your reading comprehension is so low that you've read this manga for at least 5-years and still failed to realize certain characters are more effective at certain ranges.




No shit. Don't ignore what he said. 

_*"As opposed to just placing both fighters in the same effective range and letting their speed and offensive abilities account for what happens next."*_

It doesn't matter what range the character is effective at. If Onoki wants to fight the battle a fucking football field away, then it's _his_ job to gain distance. Not Nikushimi's to do it for him.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 30, 2013)

Would more distance even matter? If the speed difference is such that Oonoki gets blitzed at 5m, then how can the Tsuchikage possibly get close enough to hit Itachi? Even if I started them a mile apart, it's not gonna happen unless the Tsuchikage closes that distance, and then he's right back where Turrin says Itachi has an unfair advantage.

I'm pretty sure that just means Itachi is stronger.


----------



## IchLiebe (Oct 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Would more distance even matter? If the speed difference is such that Oonoki gets blitzed at 5m, then how can the Tsuchikage possibly get close enough to hit Itachi? Even if I started them a mile apart, it's not gonna happen unless the Tsuchikage closes that distance, and then he's right back where Turrin says Itachi has an unfair advantage.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that just means Itachi is stronger.



You're aren't that stupid, as much as I hate to admit it. You put 1 man who specializes in mid-long range combat 5m away from 5 people who specialize in close combat. Don't act like that ain't a HUGE favor towards one side. And then go on to say that it means the 5 people are stronger. That's fucking stupid and you should feel terrible for saying it..


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 30, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> You're aren't that stupid, as much as I hate to admit it. You put 1 man who specializes in mid-long range combat 5m away from 5 people who specializes in close combat. Don't act like that ain't a HUGE favor towards one side.



The difference between short and mid-range, as Kishimoto defines them, is only 5m...and another 5+ for long-range.

It's not a favor for anyone. Itachi has long-range Jutsu; Oonoki has short-range Jutsu. Both have mid-range Jutsu, and/or Jutsu that function the same at mid-range as at all other ranges (e.g., Jinton and Katon).

Putting Oonoki at short-range does not diminish his combat potential in any way, nor does it bolster Itachi's; it simply puts both shinobi within a radius at which they may exercise their powers with complete effectiveness.

What the hell do you care, IchLiebe? You still said Oonoki wins. 



> And then go on to say that it means the 5 people are stronger. That's fucking stupid and you should feel terrible for saying it..



Yeah, well...it isn't and I don't.


----------



## IchLiebe (Oct 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The difference between short and mid-range, as Kishimoto defines them, is only 5m...and another 5+ for long-range.



I would rather take my chances 10m from 5 people instead of 5m. 



> It's not a favor for anyone. Itachi has long-range Jutsu; Oonoki has short-range Jutsu. Both have mid-range Jutsu, and/or Jutsu that function the same at mid-range as at all other ranges (e.g., Jinton and Katon).



Amaterasu=5m. Tsukiyomi=5m. Sword of Totsuka=5m. Genjutsu of any sort=5m. 
Weight changing jutsu=contact. Golem=5m. Yeah, that's obviously even .



> Putting Oonoki at short-range does not diminish his combat potential in any way, nor does it bolster Itachi's; it simply puts both shinobi within a radius at which they may exercise their powers with complete effectiveness.



Oonoki's jinton can do a sweep movement, that's the only reason he can win. Itachi can easily cross 5m before Oonoki can do much. You then added 4 more to that. That's overwhelming. Put 5 Sasuke's 5m away from Deidara and would you still say that it's even? 

Most threads in the battledome use more than 20m. That makes it pretty even. Putting 5vs1 at 5m is just ridiculous.



> What the hell do you care, IchLiebe? You still said Oonoki wins.
> 
> Yeah, well...it isn't and I don't.




I'm a caring member of the battledome. It's my obligation to help people who are having trouble with anything from not knowing how a distance affects a match to thinking Itachi wins.


----------



## kaminogan (Oct 30, 2013)

its not like ohnoki couldn't lighten the ground at itachis feet and bombard him with rocks,


----------



## Turrin (Oct 30, 2013)

@Niku 
That is way too many points to bother responding to in such a silly thread, and no I'm not insulted by the thread in the least, I've been pretty implicit in the fact that I find the thread to be unintentionally hilarious on your part; because it conveys your insecurities so clearly. 



Rocky said:


> No shit. Don't ignore what he said.
> 
> _*"As opposed to just placing both fighters in the same effective range and letting their speed and offensive abilities account for what happens next."*_
> 
> It doesn't matter what range the character is effective at. If Onoki wants to fight the battle a fucking football field away, then it's _his_ job to gain distance. Not Nikushimi's to do it for him.


This literally has nothing to do with what I said. Itachi is a CQC fighter Rocky, so starting at 5m is ideal for him; it is not ideal for Onoki. Therefore starting at 5m advantages Itachi, not Onoki in this match. Of course if the distance is set 5m it's Onoki's task to get out of that range, if he wants to fight at a larger distance, however that doesn't change the fact that the starting distance advantages Itachi.



Kyokan said:


> But the end result doesn't change in the least.
> 
> This match is no different from Juubito vs. Tenten, should he send her to the moon or just blitz and break her neck? The end result is the same, nothing changes it so he doesn't need to change anything.


Let me put it this way to you bruv, if i'm making a Juubito vs Tenten thread to prove whatever stupid point, that has demanded a need for such a ridiculous thread, to demonstrate that people agree Rikudo would beat Tenten; i'm not thinking to myself "oh man better give Rikudo additional advantages to make sure he wins" lol. I'm not thinking that because i'm 100% secure that Rikudo would win w/o needing to give him further advantages.

On the other hand Niku was clearly not nearly that secure in 5 Itachi's victory against Onoki, and thus felt the need to give an advantage to them in the match conditions. 

Does this in any-way change the outcome of the match; hell no, Onoki doesn't stand any chance. However it's unintentionally hilarious, because for all of Niku bluster to the point of making this Itachi-fan jerk circle thread, he still the most insecure person in the room when it came to Itachi's victory LOL.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Oct 30, 2013)

Looks like you guys played right into his hands. Obvious bait is obvious. Personally, I think Itachi can high-very high diff win against Oonoki 1 v 1, but that's another argument for another time.


----------



## Bonly (Oct 30, 2013)

One Itachi can argueably beat Onoki more times then not, adding four more as well as making them edo in another scenario pretty much sets Itachi's win in stone.


----------



## Jagger (Oct 30, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> I can't treat Wood clones (even Madara's) with much seriousness after Madara beat Hashirama's *Sage*-enhanced wood clones while sitting down in his ribcage Susanoo. Even 5v1 against Kages who are extremely weak in CQC (Mei, Gaara), they barely landed any significant hits.
> 
> Edo Itachi's complete Susanoo would plow through the 5 Madara clone's Susanoo with ease, it'd be like watching Ei fight 5 Konohamarus.


That is caused by the huge amount of skill the shinobi needs to put when he spams too many clones and tries to use high-level techniques. 

Hashirama needed to keep up the barrier and even then, he divided himself even more causing the speed of techniques and power of them to be drastically lowered.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 30, 2013)

Turrin said:


> This literally has nothing to do with what I said. Itachi is a CQC fighter Rocky, so starting at 5m is ideal for him; it is not ideal for Onoki. Therefore starting at 5m advantages Itachi, not Onoki in this match.




No...because Itachi is not a CQC fighter...

Gai & the Raikage are CQC fighters, not Itachi. Itachi is an all-range Shinobi. Genjutsu & Amaterasu cover the short range, weapon projectiles & Susano'o cover the mid-range, and Magatama & Fire Style take the long range.

Onoki similarly can fight at multiple ranges, Jinton is an all range technique, his weight alteration techniques are *short* range, and his Doton Jutsu are mostly mid to short. His other elemental Jutsu probably fall under mid, a common range. 

So no, the fight is fair at any distance. If Onoki chooses the "let me fly a millions miles outside of your range" strategy, he should be the one to gain the distance.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 31, 2013)

Rocky said:


> No...because Itachi is not a CQC fighter...
> 
> Gai & the Raikage are CQC fighters, not Itachi. Itachi is an all-range Shinobi. Genjutsu & Amaterasu cover the short range, weapon projectiles & Susano'o cover the mid-range, and Magatama & Fire Style take the long range.
> 
> ...



Itachi can fight at all ranges, however that doesn't change the fact that he excels more or if your prefer is more dangerous in CQC. Therefore Itachi's ideal range to start a match would be 5m. 

Onoki can also fight at all ranges, however that doesn't change the fact that he excels more or if your prefer is more dangerous at Long-range. 

So if you give Itachi a starting distance of short, he is getting the advantage of starting at his most ideal range where he is most dangerous. Like wise the same would be true if you gave Onoki a starting distance of long.  In both cases of ideal range (Short) Itachi & (Long) Onoki, they would be advantages because they start the match at their deadliest, while the other does not.

So if you want to advantage someone you start them at their ideal range; that's why all of Niku's Itachi matches start at 5m because he's incredibly insecure about Itachi's victory, so he gives Itachi his ideal range in every match.

If you want to try to avoid advantaging someone that ether you start both fighters at their ideal range or you start them both at a range that is not ideal. Since it's impossible in this case to start Itachi and Onoki at their ideal range -- Short and Long at the same time -- we have to default to starting them both at their non-ideal range, which would be Mid-Range.

Not that it matters whatsoever for the purpose of this match, I just find the level of insecurity Niku displays over 5 Itachis beating Onoki extremely funny, when most people (if not all) would agree that Onoki would loose even if he was put in his ideal range, against 5 Itachi's.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 31, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> I would rather take my chances 10m from 5 people instead of 5m.



I don't care what you would rather do. 

It has no bearing on the match, its participants, or the fairness of the conditions.



> Amaterasu=5m. Tsukiyomi=5m. Sword of Totsuka=5m. Genjutsu of any sort=5m.
> Weight changing jutsu=contact. Golem=5m.



Jinton can also be used at 5m (and, in fact, has a better chance of hitting with less distance between Oonoki and his target). Oonoki's full arsenal can be utilized at this range with the same basic effectiveness as at any other range.

Also, the Totsuka no Tsurugi itself is longer than 5m; Susano'o is listed as a long-range Jutsu, which means its reach is over 15m.



> Yeah, that's obviously even .



Your sarcasm belies the obvious point I'm trying to make: This is NOT even. Itachi's Jutsu are better. Itachi is better. Oonoki is outnumbered by better shinobi with better Jutsu. Oonoki loses.



> Oonoki's jinton can do a sweep movement, that's the only reason he can win. Itachi can easily cross 5m before Oonoki can do much. You then added 4 more to that. That's overwhelming. Put 5 Sasuke's 5m away from Deidara and would you still say that it's even?



Of course not, but that's not because the distance is unfair; Sasuke is just faster, and you've said there are five of him in that scenario. Deidara CAN defend himself from Sasuke at 5m (he proved this in the manga); if he ends up losing, it's not because Sasuke was able to cut him down before he could do anything.

The 5-vs.-1 aspect is actually the only unfair condition of this match, and I made it that way intentionally to illustrate a point. Oonoki is hyped for his ability to take on five of Madara's clones, and some people (*cough*Turrin*cough*) take it for granted that Oonoki can beat Itachi because Madara>Itachi. I wanted this thread to reflect the absurdity of this belief through simple common sense. It's already been debated ad nauseum why Moku Bunshin are not as strong as the original, so this thread is taking a more direct approach to the issue.

Of course 5 Itachi's rape Oonoki. Hell, one of them would.



> Most threads in the battledome use more than 20m. That makes it pretty even.



I disagree; most fights in the manga don't start with a distance greater than 5m, let alone 20. The only thing that kind of distance would do for Oonoki is put him outside of Itachi's Horrible Rape Radius, which is unfair to Itachi because that radius is simply the product of his brokenness.

As far as I'm concerned, "fair" is both combatants starting at a range where they are both 100% effective. That _usually_ means conversation distance, although I do acknowledge exceptions.



> Putting 5vs1 at 5m is just ridiculous.



Oonoki didn't seem to have any trouble holding his own when it happened in the manga (versus the Madara clones). I don't care what you find ridiculous or unfair; the objective reality of the matter is that Oonoki is still capable of fighting at this range- he simply _loses_ because five Itachi can overwhelm him.



> I'm a caring member of the battledome. It's my obligation to help people who are having trouble with anything from not knowing how a distance affects a match to thinking Itachi wins.



You're doing God's work, IchLiebe.


----------



## Mayweather (Oct 31, 2013)

People overrate clones to hell. Though Onoki gets raped even if this was Edo Itachi with 4 clones.

Kishi has made it so clear that clones are weaker than the original yet people still think what the gokage against the Susano'o clones is outstanding or something.


----------



## kaminogan (Oct 31, 2013)

if a hyuuga with byakugan used amaterasu would everything within 30 meters get hit ?

also itachi prefers meele since it dosent use chakra,

as well as kunai for mid to long range combat,


----------



## kaminogan (Oct 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't care what you would rather do.
> 
> It has no bearing on the match, its participants, or the fairness of the conditions.
> 
> ...




are you sure ? the ability to instantly incapacitate your opponent and an ability that pretty much means game ove...

now that i think about it these two have pretty similar techs,


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 31, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Itachi can fight at all ranges, however that doesn't change the fact that he excels more or if your prefer is more dangerous in CQC. Therefore Itachi's ideal range to start a match would be 5m.
> 
> Onoki can also fight at all ranges, however that doesn't change the fact that he excels more or if your prefer is more dangerous at Long-range.



Sorry, but you're wrong.

Oonoki is most effective at short range; most of his main Jutsu (e.g., weight alteration, petrification, rock fists) aren't effective without physical contact and Jinton has to travel, which implicitly means that there's a converse relationship between the distance it has to travel and the time the enemy has to react to it. No matter what range he's at, Oonoki's ability to fly/levitate is the same.

Likewise, most of Itachi's Jutsu aren't effective outside of a 5-10m radius; the few exceptions are unaffected by the distance other than giving the target more time to do something.



> So if you give Itachi a starting distance of short, he is getting the advantage of starting at his most ideal range where he is most dangerous. Like wise the same would be true if you gave Onoki a starting distance of long.  In both cases of ideal range (Short) Itachi & (Long) Onoki, they would be advantages because they start the match at their deadliest, while the other does not.



This would be so much more poignant if Oonoki's abilities were in any way diminished by fighting at short-range, which they aren't. You are basically saying this match is unfair because Itachi can reach him, which is hilarious.



> So if you want to advantage someone you start them at their ideal range; that's why all of Niku's Itachi matches start at 5m because he's incredibly insecure about Itachi's victory, so he gives Itachi his ideal range in every match.



This just goes to show the astronomical difference between your mentality and mine, because that thought never even occurred to me when I posted this thread. I chose 5m because that's my idea of conversation distance and normal "challenge accepted" distance- it's the range I use for virtually _all_ of my matches, whether Itachi is even a participant or not.



> If you want to try to avoid advantaging someone that ether you start both fighters at their ideal range or you start them both at a range that is not ideal. Since it's impossible in this case to start Itachi and Onoki at their ideal range -- Short and Long at the same time -- we have to default to starting them both at their non-ideal range, which would be Mid-Range.



The problem, again, lies in your mistaken assumption that Oonoki's ideal range is long instead of short. Oonoki doesn't even like keeping distance from his targets.

Mid-range doesn't help Itachi or Oonoki and it forces them both to get closer in order to fight.

In addition, if you are assuming that Oonoki is a long-range fighter and Itachi a short-range fighter, how the hell is mid-range fair? A long-range fighter is going to be effective at mid-range; a short-range fighter is not. That is decidedly _*unfair*_.



> Not that it matters whatsoever for the purpose of this match, I just find the level of insecurity Niku displays over 5 Itachis beating Onoki extremely funny, when most people (if not all) would agree that Onoki would loose even if he was put in his ideal range, against 5 Itachi's.



I know you've stopped listening by this point, but I'm just gonna go ahead and point out (again) that I made this thread to illustrate a point. And it worked out pretty much as I expected.



Turrin said:


> @Niku
> That is way too many points to bother responding to in such a silly thread, and no I'm not insulted by the thread in the least, I've been pretty implicit in the fact that I find the thread to be unintentionally hilarious on your part; because it conveys your insecurities so clearly.



Which is why you are the one ducking out. Again. And I'm sure it's also why you're the one who feels the need to keep pointing out other people's insecurity constantly, despite having already made that point about a dozen times. Which one of us is insecure, now? 



> Let me put it this way to you bruv, if i'm making a Juubito vs Tenten thread to prove whatever stupid point, that has demanded a need for such a ridiculous thread, to demonstrate that people agree Rikudo would beat Tenten; i'm not thinking to myself "oh man better give Rikudo additional advantages to make sure he wins" lol. I'm not thinking that because i'm 100% secure that Rikudo would win w/o needing to give him further advantages.
> 
> On the other hand Niku was clearly not nearly that secure in 5 Itachi's victory against Onoki, and thus felt the need to give an advantage to them in the match conditions.
> 
> Does this in any-way change the outcome of the match; hell no, Onoki doesn't stand any chance. However it's unintentionally hilarious, because for all of Niku bluster to the point of making this Itachi-fan jerk circle thread, he still the most insecure person in the room when it came to Itachi's victory LOL.



Only in your head, Turrin. The problem with your analogy is that I never gave these Itachis any advantages; all combatants start at a range where they are maximally effective and all combatants have full knowledge. The only condition I added unfairly was the multiplication of Itachi by five, which I did _intentionally_ to show the absurdity of anyone saying Oonoki can beat Itachi based on how well he did against the five Madara clones.


----------



## Jagger (Oct 31, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> I love dumb threads. If only people would read the manga. If 1 Oonoki can beat 1 Itachi, he can beat 5.
> 
> Oonoki low dif 10/10, BOTH SCENARIO'S.


Yet, Madara *alone* solo'ed both Onoki and Mu.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 31, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> are you sure ? the ability to instantly incapacitate your opponent and an ability that pretty much means game ove...
> 
> now that i think about it these two have pretty similar techs,



Yeah, Genjutsu can disable opponents instantly and can do so from a safe distance (in contrast to weight manipulation or petrification, which both require physical contact). Amaterasu is every bit as deadly as Jinton- hell, as far as Oonoki's frail old body is concerned, Itachi's bare hands are deadly.

What Itachi has on top of that is superior speed, greater practical analytical skills, and the augmented offense/defense of Susano'o. Oonoki doesn't have a giant chakra beast protecting him from all sides; if he gets taken from a blind spot, it's game over for him.


----------



## kaminogan (Oct 31, 2013)

what ohnoki has over itachi is stamina,


as well as manevarabilty,

and id love to see a fist fight between susanoo and rock golem*,

(another sim*)

basically one itachi is about equal to one ohnoki,

five itachis are too much,


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 31, 2013)

I wouldn't necessarily say Oonoki has stamina over Itachi, given his age and physical condition. Does anyone even know what his maximum Jinton usage per fight has been? I can't remember, but that's gotta mean it was never terribly impressive.

As for maneuverability, Itachi has Oonoki beaten in terms of movement speed, reaction time, and agility, so the Tsuchikage's ability to fly doesn't necessarily give him the edge in that regard.


----------



## pato454 (Oct 31, 2013)

one itachi wins high diff, one edo wins mid diff


----------



## Mercurial (Oct 31, 2013)

Itachi can win more times that not against Onoki in 1 vs 1 battle; 5 Itachi vs Onoki comes to be a total fodderstomp. Madara's Mokuton clones are nearly fodder compared to real Madara.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 31, 2013)

I see where this is coming from.

Itachi soloes 


Onoki didn't beat 5 Madara clones. He off paneled them, in an unknown period of time, with unknown abilities, while Madara's *clones* were doing unknown things.

I'll go ahead and say this; no matter who is using what type of clone, their effectiveness is determinted solely by the plot. As in they can be either fodder or they can be as strong as the original, like in Naruto's case most of the times. 


Also, trying to draw conclusions in regards to power levels through clones and their accomplishments will also be not precise.
Let me make my point clearer. Itachi's crow clone dispatched FRS Naruto and his 2 clones with nothing but crow genjutsu and a couple of kunai. That Naruto beat down Kakuzu.
Would it be fair to assume that a single Itachi clone is stronger than Kakuzu with 95% of his arsenal restricted ? 
I'd say it would rather be fallacious.



As for this match up, I'd say a single Edo Itachi would murk Onoki. I think a battle between sick living Itachi and Onoki would be closer but Itachi'd still have the edge.


----------



## Azula (Oct 31, 2013)

oonoki spins around with his laser jinton and slaps sealing tags while itachis are regenerating


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Oct 31, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> I can't treat Wood clones (even Madara's) with much seriousness after Madara beat Hashirama's *Sage*-enhanced wood clones while sitting down in his ribcage Susanoo..



Its like everyone _conveniently_ misses out on the fact that Hashirama was focusing most of his power to his original body hence them being so weak in the first place.


----------



## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Oct 31, 2013)

GG


----------



## DCI Kurusu (Oct 31, 2013)

Oonoki creams sick Itachi, even if there are five of them.

*Speed*

Firstly, sick Itachi is slow. Slower than (or, let's say, for the sake of argument, as fast as) Hebi Sasuke, who was - while quick by his own right - intercepted by Sai [1]. We all know just how slow Sai is. He managed to dodge the majority of Deidara's bombs, sure, but this feat was replicated by both base Naruto and Kakashi.

Itachi was out-maneuvered by Sasuke as soon as the larger ninja tools came into play; the older of the two was pretty much being murdered before the MS techniques came into play.

Now, let's compare Oonoki's speed. He has incredible feats to support the notion that he is faster than Itachi. For example, during Naruto, his and Gaara's fight with Muu, Oonoki moves from here to here with incredible speed. That is a feat which few characters have so far replicated. Additionally, during Kabuto's first arrival, he goes straight through a Deidara clone so fast that the two of them don't even realize what has happened for a good panel and a half.

*Amaterasu*

As we've seen, Itachi can only use Amaterasu at brief intervals due to low chakra reserves and the rate at which his eyes deteriorate. He has enough speed to catch a C2 Sasuke, but only after he's exhausted most of his chakra reserves. Oh, and then - might I add - it was only a clone. Let's see Itachi catch Oonoki, a major speedster, while looking up at the sun. Canonically, Itachi's vision is very blurred [2]. Oonoki can make several rock clones of himself, as well as meld into the landscape using Doton, so being barraged from several angles isn't much of a problem for him.

*Susano'o*

Once his fight with Sasuke had depleted most of his chakra reserves, Itachi could only use Susano'o for a few minutes at most. Additionally, its range extended to about boss summon size; Oonoki can fly much higher.


Edit: take a look at the post above mine


----------



## Alex Payne (Oct 31, 2013)

DCI Kurusu said:


> Oonoki creams sick Itachi, even if there are five of them.
> 
> *Speed*
> 
> Firstly, sick Itachi is slow.


The hate is strong in this one.


----------



## DCI Kurusu (Oct 31, 2013)

alex payne said:


> The hate is strong in this one.



Itachi fan, actually.


----------



## hunter101 (Oct 31, 2013)

this looks like a stomp match.


----------



## Ghost (Oct 31, 2013)

DCI Kurusu said:


> Oonoki creams sick Itachi, even if there are five of them.
> 
> *Speed*
> 
> Firstly, sick Itachi is slow. Slower than (or, let's say, for the sake of argument, as fast as) Hebi Sasuke, who was - while quick by his own right - intercepted by Sai [1].


Fyi that isn't Hebi Sasuke and even if it was, Hebi Sasuke is one of the fastest characters in the series.


> We all know just how slow Sai is. He managed to dodge the majority of Deidara's bombs, sure, but this feat was replicated by both base Naruto and Kakashi.


Base Naruto and Kakashi are both fast. Especially Kakashi whom speed was praised by Obito. 



> Itachi was out-maneuvered by Sasuke as soon as the larger ninja tools came into play; the older of the two was pretty much being murdered before the MS techniques came into play.


Are you talking about the rigged fuuma shuriken? Onoki would've gotten sliced in half in that situation.


> Now, let's compare Oonoki's speed. He has incredible feats to support the notion that he is faster than Itachi. For example, during Naruto, his and Gaara's fight with Muu, Oonoki moves from here to here with incredible speed. That is a feat which few characters have so far replicated.


I don't think that distance is as far as you think. Maybe like 200 meters max.


> Additionally, during Kabuto's first arrival, he goes straight through a Deidara clone so fast that the two of them don't even realize what has happened for a good panel and a half.


Interception feat isn't valid. They weren't focusing on Onoki which allowed the blitz.


> *Amaterasu*
> 
> As we've seen, Itachi can only use Amaterasu at brief intervals due to low chakra reserves and the rate at which his eyes deteriorate.


Dying Itachi outlasted Hebi Sasuke. That's quite far from low reserves.


> He has enough speed to catch a C2 Sasuke, but only after he's exhausted most of his chakra reserves.


Itachi has more than enough speed to catch CS2 Sasuke. I think you've forgotten that he wasn't trying to kill Sasuke.



> Oh, and then - might I add - it was only a clone. Let's see Itachi catch *Oonoki, a major speedster*, while looking up at the sun. Canonically, Itachi's vision is very blurred[2].


*hilarious.*

Itachi is still able to use his legs to position himself from not staring at the sun. With vision that blurred Itachi countered every single shuriken Sasuke threw at him.


> Oonoki can make several rock clones of himself, as well as meld into the landscape using Doton, so being barraged from several angles isn't much of a problem for him.


Problem for Onoki is he cannot react to movement of Itachi's hands. He won't even notice Itachi creating a clone and switching places with it. Onoki has his focus on Itachi's clone and won't notice Itachi ambushing him from a different direction.



> Once his fight with Sasuke had depleted most of his chakra reserves, Itachi could only use Susano'o for a few minutes at most. Additionally, its range extended to about boss summon size; Oonoki can fly much higher.



Onoki has nothing to make Itachi use his completed Susano'o except for his biggest Jintons that YnK can block. Against Uchiha Madara Onoki didn't fly hundreds of meters in the air. Why against Itachi?


----------



## The World (Oct 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I felt like being an asshole just so I could make a point.
> 
> 
> *Location:* 5 Kage vs. Madara
> ...



Nice bait thread 

And by nice I mean shit nuggets 

5 Itachi's eh? I assume all 5 will surround Onoki while using Susano

All Onoki has to do is use Jinton and spin 360*

5 dead Itachi's


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 31, 2013)

DCI Kurusu said:


> Oonoki creams sick Itachi, even if there are five of them.
> 
> *Speed*
> 
> ...




Are you trolling or being sarcastic, because if not I'll neg you .


----------



## Vice (Oct 31, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Onoki didn't beat 5 Madara clones. He off paneled them, in an unknown period of time, with unknown abilities, while Madara's *clones* were doing unknown things.
> 
> I'll go ahead and say this; no matter who is using what type of clone, their effectiveness is determinted solely by the plot. As in they can be either fodder or they can be as strong as the original, like in Naruto's case most of the times.



Dear lord, the hypocrisy. 

If Itachi had replicated the same feat you'd still be wanking over it to this day.


----------



## Brooks (Oct 31, 2013)

One Itachi turns Ōnoki into his personal bitch


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Oct 31, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Are you trolling or being sarcastic, because if not I'll neg you .





Can I sig this?


----------



## DCI Kurusu (Oct 31, 2013)

> Fyi that isn't Hebi Sasuke and even if it was, Hebi Sasuke is one of the fastest characters in the series.


Cheers for the update. Prove it, please. Remember, though, we're talking about Itachi - so only feats prior to his and Sasuke's fight.



> Base Naruto and Kakashi are both fast. Especially Kakashi whom speed was praised by Obito.


Okay. Let's say that Sasuke's speed feats against Deidara are valid. How does this compare up to Oonoki's speed in firing Jinton and his overall movespeed? If you can prove to me that Sasuke, or even base Nardo and Kakashi, are fast enough so that Oonoki can't hit him, then go ahead.



> Are you talking about the rigged fuuma shuriken? Onoki would've gotten sliced in half in that situation.


Not Oonoki's fighting style. But the feat I provided you with says otherwise. A shuriken flies slower than a gravity-propelled Muu that's just been smacked, full-force, by Nardo's Rasengan. Oonoki still manages to intercept him before he hits the ground, despite the 200m distance between them.



> I don't think that distance is as far as you think. Maybe like 200 meters max.


Yeah, and does Itachi have any better feats than that?



> Interception feat isn't valid. They weren't focusing on Onoki which allowed the blitz.


Okay. He was still too fast for them to realize he was there, before Deidara got a hole punched in his chest. But yeah, okay, cancel this. Itachi have any better feats? You can use pre-Itachi fight Sasuke as a medium, if you'd like, seeing as they are comparable.



> Dying Itachi outlasted Hebi Sasuke. That's quite far from low reserves.


Well, let's see. He had enough stamina to use:
one Katon
run around quite a bit
fight CQC for 2 pages or so
3 pages of Amaterasu, from context equating to about half a minute
from context, about 2 minutes of Susano'o

That's it. Enough to hit Oonoki? I don't think so. If you do, please prove me wrong.



> Itachi has more than enough speed to catch CS2 Sasuke. I think you've forgotten that he wasn't trying to kill Sasuke.


Doubtful. He was definitely trying to hit Sasuke with Amaterasu. Sasuke was avoiding it, whether or not Itachi wanted to hit him. Doesn't change the fact that, in the end, it was just a clone sub.



> hilarious.
> 
> Itachi is still able to use his legs to position himself from not staring at the sun. With vision that blurred Itachi countered every single shuriken Sasuke threw at him.


Glad I could make you laugh 
He used other senses, e.g. hearing and sensory to block those shuriken. Also, the range at which they were fighting was very close. When looking up into the sky, it'd be a lot harder to see. Moving around takes up valuable time. Don't forget that Oonoki can move in that time, and that Itachi has a very limited timespan in which he can use MS techniques.



> Problem for Onoki is he cannot react to movement of Itachi's hands. He won't even notice Itachi creating a clone and switching places with it. Onoki has his focus on Itachi's clone and won't notice Itachi ambushing him from a different direction.


That's really an assumption. I could believe you or I could not believe you. There's evidence, yes, that Itachi has extremely fast jutsu speed. Whether or not Oonoki wouldn't notice him is another matter. Besides, Oonoki would be using his own clones.



> Onoki has nothing to make Itachi use his completed Susano'o except for his biggest Jintons that YnK can block. Against Uchiha Madara Onoki didn't fly hundreds of meters in the air. Why against Itachi?


Go back to Deidara fight. Oonoki is up in the clouds. As soon as he sees Itachi's reach extends far enough to hit him, he'll fly higher. Itachi has only hit Nagato and stationary Ooro with Totsuka. He wouldn't be able to hit Oonoki.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The only condition I added unfairly was the multiplication of Itachi by five, which I did _intentionally_ to show the absurdity of anyone saying Oonoki can beat Itachi based on how well he did against the five Madara clones.


Like I said Niku i'm not going to bother with all your points, because I don't have time to listen to your stupid insecurities about whether Itachi could win 5v1 against Onoki. I think your vastly underrating 5 Itachi's if you think he needs an advantage 5v1; and that's all I really have to say about the subject.

Though I did find this quote very funny, because this thread in no way reflects anything about Onoki vs Itachi, because he isn't fight Itachi, he's fighting 5. So yes the thread conveys the obvious fact that it's absurd to think based on Onoki's performance against the 5 Madara clones that He can beat 5 Itachi's; but your the only one on the entire forum who is so insecure about this fact. So much so that you needed to make a thread to assuage your insecurities and even further advantage the 5 Itachi's


----------



## LostSelf (Oct 31, 2013)

Onoki can drop a golem in Flying Deidara's head (The same Deidara that avoided a huge sand tsunami). He drops a golem at every one of Itachi's heads and they can't do jack about it .


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 31, 2013)

Vice said:


> Dear lord, the hypocrisy.
> 
> If Itachi had replicated the same feat you'd still be wanking over it to this day.



Oh yeah, you know me better than I know myself. 

Thanks for contributing to the discussion 

BTW, there is no evidence that he killed them either. He might have just trapped them, slowed them down, or simply kept them busy with KBs or some shit. All we know is that he was able to come to Raikage's aid.
Everyone knows that off-panel feats are not quantifiable.




Kenpachi TZ said:


> Can I sig this?



Sure brah, but I don't see why it is quote-worthy.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 31, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Like I said Niku i'm not going to bother with all your points, because I don't have time to listen to your stupid insecurities about whether Itachi could win 5v1 against Onoki. I think your vastly underrating 5 Itachi's if you think he needs an advantage 5v1; and that's all I really have to say about the subject.
> 
> Though I did find this quote very funny, because this thread in no way reflects anything about Onoki vs Itachi, because he isn't fight Itachi, he's fighting 5. So yes the thread conveys the obvious fact that it's absurd to think based on Onoki's performance against the 5 Madara clones that He can beat 5 Itachi's; but your the only one on the entire forum who is so insecure about this fact. So much so that you needed to make a thread to assuage your insecurities and even further advantage the 5 Itachi's



but turrin, weren't you arguing that he could solo 25 madara clones if he started at full power?  And since you also said that 5 V3 susanoo clones > Itachi or at least around his level, wouldn't you have to logically conclude that oonoki vs 5 itachis is not some kind of underestimation?


----------



## DCI Kurusu (Oct 31, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Are you trolling or being sarcastic, because if not I'll neg you .



At least try and prove me wrong now that you've negged me.


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Oct 31, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sure brah, but I don't see why it is quote-worthy.



I'm probably imagining it, but your tone made it sound as if getting negged is the same as getting shot.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 31, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> but turrin, weren't you arguing that he could solo 25 madara clones if he started at full power?


Madara clones are not a smooth translation to Itachi, the fact that he can defeat 25 at full power imo tells us that he'd be an extremely dangerous enemy for Itachi to go up against 1v1. It can also tell us how Onoki stacks up to certain abilities of Itachi, to some extent, but ultimately equating them perfectly does not work out properly. While many abilities are shared between the clones and Itachi they are not identical in every regard. Amaterasu being the big difference I see, as x5 Amaterasu would have major implications on any match.

Also take note that I said Onoki did defeat 25 at full power (he did in the manga-cannon), which doesn't necessarily mean he would defeat 25 in every scenario. It would completely depend on when he decided to use Jinton-Cube and if at the moment of that decision he had an opening to employ the Jinton Cube and the chakra left to do so.  

Tho I suppose I should amend my statement of Onoki standing no chance against 5-Itachi, to something more a-long the lines of, he'd need thee perfect conditions to employ Jinton cube much more so than he needed against the 25 clones, namely because of Amaterasu and the fact that it's unclear how much knowledge Onoki possesses on Itachi (other than him probably knowing the basics, like Itachi is legendary Uchiha). 



> And since you also said that 5 V3 susanoo clones > Itachi or at least around his level, wouldn't you have to logically conclude that oonoki vs 5 itachis is not some kind of underestimation?


Actually I took that back, based on you pointing out how the new trans I got indicates the clones couldn't use HG-Realm or probably any Rinnegan Jutsu. Now I think Edo Itachi would high diff 5 Madara clones. And non-Edo Itachi it would depend on whether Totsuka Sword or 5 Stage 3 Swords, could get through the other's Susano'o defense. Or if the clones could use things like Mokuton to circumvent Susano'o's defense. Basically I just consider it much closer all around with Rinnegan Jutsu probably off the table. 25 Clones would certainly beat Itachi, but that's kind of irrelevant here.

Tho again it's not like the clones are a perfect replacement to Itachi in all regards. As I've explained to you multiple times during our discussion ueharakk, the main reason I brought up the Madara clone performance, was just to show that Itachi probably wasn't stomping Onoki 1v1; via something like Sharingan-Genjutsu-Rape or Totsuka Blitz, as people are often so willing to default to in lieu of a real intelligent argument.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 31, 2013)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> I'm probably imagining it, but your tone made it sound as if getting negged is the same as getting shot.



Oh well, then you'd be right 
Thats how I felt while saying it.



johnsuwey said:


> Seemed fairly reasonable to be honest.
> 
> Sick Itachi is way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way OVERHYPED!
> 
> ...




I think my post triggered something in his head and he lost it.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 31, 2013)

DCI Kurusu said:


> At least try and prove me wrong now that you've negged me.



I can start out by saying that sick Itachi isn't slow.
Or at least it is safe to say he isn't slower than Onoki.

We know for a fact that Sasuke's speed impressed Deidara to the extend that Deidara commented on it as "he is too fast." And he immediately had to take it to the air to get out of Sasuke reach, mind you that same Deidara was able to duke it out on the ground with team Gai, when he was missing two of his arms.

This was also when Sasuke wasn't using Juuin.

We also know that Itachi is statistically, and featwise, faster than Base Sasuke. That makes him faster than Deidara by default.

Deidara and Onoki seemed to be around same speed overall, that'd make sick Itachi significantly faster than Onoki.

So yeah, your post crumbles from the first line.


----------



## MysteriousD (Oct 31, 2013)

Why not start off Oohnoki with a broken back. no legs, and no arms.... 

The result would be the same as

Not 1

Not 2 

3

4

*BUT 5*

Uchiha clan genius, MS, Tsyuki, Amaterasu, ANBU black op leader at age 13, eyes can read people unlike other Uchihas can, Soloed diedara and Oro without a scratch, and DIED against Sasuke purposefully to seal Oro and give him MS. + reputedly "completely invincible Sussanno itachi's


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 31, 2013)

Itachi beat Galactus people, you're all dumb if you think that one Itachi cannot solo Narutoverse with exception of  Ichiraku and have a hard time against Mizuki .


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 31, 2013)

Vice said:


> Dear lord, the hypocrisy.
> 
> If Itachi had replicated the same feat you'd still be wanking over it to this day.



No, I'm pretty sure I would've busted a nut so hard that my testicles would've imploded and ceased functioning. Not to mention a ruptured seminal vesicle and third-degree friction burns on the interior of the urethra. 



Brooks said:


> One Itachi turns Ōnoki into his personal bitch



Oonoki is not worthy of being Itachi's personal bitch.

Galactus is Itachi's bottom bitch; various other Marvel and DBZ characters make up Itachi's bitch harem. Oonoki isn't even good enough to make junior bitch status; he is just some piece of dogshit in the road Itachi accidentally stepped in when he was on his way to go solo/bitchify some cosmic-level entities.



Turrin said:


> Like I said Niku i'm not going to bother with all your points, because I don't have time to listen to your stupid insecurities about whether Itachi could win 5v1 against Onoki.



Liar. You have more time for this shit than I do, Turrin. 

And you already tacitly admitted Oonoki gets raped, so there's nothing you have to listen to except the sound of my derisive internet laughter echoing in your head.



> I think your vastly underrating 5 Itachi's if you think he needs an advantage 5v1; and that's all I really have to say about the subject.



I don't think they need an advantage. I think one MS-less Itachi already has the advantage. 



> Though I did find this quote very funny, because this thread in no way reflects anything about Onoki vs Itachi, because he isn't fight Itachi, he's fighting 5. So yes the thread conveys the obvious fact that it's absurd to think based on Onoki's performance against the 5 Madara clones that He can beat 5 Itachi's; but your the only one on the entire forum who is so insecure about this fact. So much so that you needed to make a thread to assuage your insecurities and even further advantage the 5 Itachi's



Seems to me like you're just mad that your indefensible hype of the Tsuchikage attracted more public scrutiny than you were comfortable with. 



johnsuwey said:


> Seemed fairly reasonable to be honest.
> 
> Sick Itachi is way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way OVERHYPED!
> 
> ...



>Beats Orochimaru and his strongest Ninjutsu in a matter of seconds.
>Is only Elite Jounin-level.

My sides.



OBDNewbie said:


> Itachi beat Galactus people, you're all dumb if you think that one Itachi cannot solo Narutoverse with exception of  Ichiraku and have a hard time against Mizuki .



I dunno, if Iruka's spine could block that giant shuriken then I'm pretty sure the Yata Mirror has a chance.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 31, 2013)

Gee, I wonder who down-voted the thread...


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> No, I'm pretty sure I would've busted a nut so hard that my testicles would've imploded and ceased functioning. Not to mention a ruptured seminal vesicle and third-degree friction burns on the interior of the urethra.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wait, so you took that serious ?

Edit: Just read the whole post .


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 31, 2013)

OBDNewbie said:


> Wait, so you took that serious ?



Which part?

The answer is probably no.


----------



## ChaddyMan1 (Oct 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Gee, I wonder who down-voted the thread...



I don't know Good Sir but I'll Up-vote it


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Which part?
> 
> The answer is probably no.




Nah, just saw that you were joking, but do you know someone who would beat Itachi besides Ichiraku ? violentrl's Whitebeard, it could even take out concepts of reality, it's pretty damn strong .


----------



## Alita (Oct 31, 2013)

I can actually see onoki beating 5 living itachi's if he goes for giant jinton right from the very getgo. That attack and too much range and firepower for itachi to avoid or survive even with yata mirror.

Also niku the order should be like this...

Muu>/=/<Edo itachi>/=/<Onoki(At least while bloodlusted)>living itachi


----------



## Blaze Release (Oct 31, 2013)

*Sigh* People are too into these tier threads and how a fellow member ranks/puts into perspective a characters strength's that these sort of threads come up.

Once you are able to see clearly that tier threads or any form of ranking by members is but their opinions and nothing more, like an asshole everybody has one, you will not think too much about it, to create this thread.

Example, i do not believe base Minato is as special as some claim. To another person he is in the same league as Hashirama. Its all perspective and how a member views a characters.

OT. Any version of Itachi alive or edo is superior to Onoki

EDIT: If i remember correctly mokuton bunshin do not follow the same principle as the kage bunshin when it comes to chakra distribution therefore those mokuton bunshin's, though they have a fair bit of chakra to use susanoo they do not have alot as the original to use susanoo while using other techniques. Secondly i cannot be bothered to look back, but i am certain onoki didn't beat the 5 mokuton bunshin's, he later got rid of all the bunshin's after Tsunade gave him chakra enough to do so. Now if Onoki could do destroy the 5 susanoo's protecting the bunshin's, while that is will be an impressive feat, you have to take into consideration the distribution of chakra/madara's seriousness, but also his ability. As Mu said when it came to jinton numbers do not matter. Every shinobi has their strengths and weaknesses that depending on their opponent, it will favour or disfavour them, therefore even if onoki can get rid of those 5 susanoo's its due to his abilities and not so much his strength. A shinobi that is stronger than him, when put in that situation may struggle more so than him



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Onoki didn't beat 5 Madara clones. He off paneled them, in an unknown period of time, with unknown abilities, while Madara's *clones* were doing unknown things.



I am confuse with your sentence. Onoki didn't beat them, that much is clear by the fact that there are 25 clones here
Battlefield

If anything he flew (he is fast in the air after all), therefore getting out of range of the susanoo and came to Ei's aid. He never did anything to them, panel or off panel


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 31, 2013)

OBDNewbie said:


> Nah, just saw that you were joking, but do you know someone who would beat Itachi besides Ichiraku ? violentrl's Whitebeard, it could even take out concepts of reality, it's pretty damn strong .



Totsuka, GG.



Alita54 said:


> I can actually see onoki beating 5 living itachi's if he goes for giant jinton right from the very getgo. That attack and too much range and firepower for itachi to avoid or survive even with yata mirror.



Or Itachi can just flick some kunai in Oonoki's eyeballs before he has a chance to charge the Jinton. Or erase the whole thing with Amaterasu.



> Also niku the order should be like this...
> 
> Muu>/=/<Edo itachi>/=/<Onoki(At least while bloodlusted)>living itachi



Nah,

Edo Itachi>living, sick Itachi>MS-less living, sick Itachi>Muu>Oonoki

Genjutsu and kunai, GG.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 31, 2013)

Blaze Release said:


> I am confuse with your sentence. Onoki didn't beat them, that much is clear by the fact that there are 25 clones here
> Battlefield
> 
> If anything he flew (he is fast in the air after all), therefore getting out of range of the susanoo and came to Ei's aid. He never did anything to them, panel or off panel



Yeah, I also noticed the same thing and mentioned it in another post.

He didn't even off panel them.


----------



## IchLiebe (Oct 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't care what you would rather do.
> 
> It has no bearing on the match, its participants, or the fairness of the conditions.



I'm just saying. Close range fighter and a long range fighter, you should put them at a fair distance which is medium



> Jinton can also be used at 5m (and, in fact, has a better chance of hitting with less distance between Oonoki and his target). Oonoki's full arsenal can be utilized at this range with the same basic effectiveness as at any other range.



When Itachi can close the distance before he uses it then no. As I said, Oonoki can really only do this because he can sweep jinton.



> Also, the Totsuka no Tsurugi itself is longer than 5m; Susano'o is listed as a long-range Jutsu, which means its reach is over 15m.



And where is this stated?



> Your sarcasm belies the obvious point I'm trying to make: This is NOT even. Itachi's Jutsu are better. Itachi is better. Oonoki is outnumbered by better shinobi with better Jutsu. Oonoki loses.



Oonoki has better jutsu. Oobito is better. Numbers mean nothing to a jinton user as the manga states. Oonoki stomps.



> Of course not, but that's not because the distance is unfair; Sasuke is just faster, and you've said there are five of him in that scenario. Deidara CAN defend himself from Sasuke at 5m (he proved this in the manga); if he ends up losing, it's not because Sasuke was able to cut him down before he could do anything.



He can't do it against 5 though. Deidara 5m from 5 Sasuke's is getting stomped in the ground.



> The 5-vs.-1 aspect is actually the only unfair condition of this match, and I made it that way intentionally to illustrate a point. Oonoki is hyped for his ability to take on five of Madara's clones, and some people (*cough*Turrin*cough*) take it for granted that Oonoki can beat Itachi because Madara>Itachi. I wanted this thread to reflect the absurdity of this belief through simple common sense. It's already been debated ad nauseum why Moku Bunshin are not as strong as the original, so this thread is taking a more direct approach to the issue.



Spite thread? Madara>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Itachi. They are completely different fighters. Madara can defend against jinton, Itachi can't.



> Of course 5 Itachi's rape Oonoki. Hell, one of them would.



We'll see.



> I disagree; most fights in the manga don't start with a distance greater than 5m, let alone 20. The only thing that kind of distance would do for Oonoki is put him outside of Itachi's Horrible Rape Radius, which is unfair to Itachi because that radius is simply the product of his brokenness.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, "fair" is both combatants starting at a range where they are both 100% effective. That _usually_ means conversation distance, although I do acknowledge exceptions.



Manga=/=battledome. We don't want rape matches because of blitzes which is basically what you tried to cause here.



> Oonoki didn't seem to have any trouble holding his own when it happened in the manga (versus the Madara clones). I don't care what you find ridiculous or unfair; the objective reality of the matter is that Oonoki is still capable of fighting at this range- he simply _loses_ because five Itachi can overwhelm him.



No he can't. Oonoki has v2 lightened Raikage reflexes as shown right here.



> You're doing God's work, IchLiebe.


----------



## IchLiebe (Oct 31, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah, I also noticed the same thing and mentioned it in another post.
> 
> He didn't even off panel them.



He used his weight jutsu so they couldn't move so he beat them. It literally says this in that same fucking scan.


----------



## kaminogan (Oct 31, 2013)

based on what people have said, ohnoki needs tsunade to use cho jinton,

so he cant use it in this fight,

i wonder...

gokage vs 25 itachis ?


----------



## J★J♥ (Oct 31, 2013)

Onoki oneshots.


----------



## kaminogan (Nov 1, 2013)

actually the chance of jinton hitting the target becomes greater with distance since jinton becomes larger the more distance is covered,


----------



## IchLiebe (Nov 1, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> actually the chance of jinton hitting the target becomes greater with distance since jinton becomes larger the more distance is covered,



Nope. Nothing has ever shown or suggested this. It's the same size at every distance. It depends on the shape of the jinton as to how big it is and how much distance it covers.


----------



## kaminogan (Nov 1, 2013)

that doesn't make any sense thou 0.o ,

if ohnoki makes for example an obtuse triangle of a jinton, then the more the distance the jinton covers the bigger it becomes,

this is assuming its a jinton laser and not just the shape itself,


----------



## IchLiebe (Nov 1, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> that doesn't make any sense thou 0.o ,
> 
> if ohnoki makes for example an obtuse triangle of a jinton, then the more the distance the jinton covers the bigger it becomes,
> 
> this is assuming its a jinton laser and not just the shape itself,



He's never made an obtuse triangle. Here's showing it stays the same.


----------



## Language of Life (Nov 1, 2013)

This thread would be stupid even without the actual combatants. This was never about 5 itachi's vs Onoki. This was always about butthurt and people letting others people opinons get under thier skin. 

My opinon; Tobirama is a cooler character so he wins, and Jiraya and Kisame are better characters so they also win.


----------



## kaminogan (Nov 1, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> He's never made an obtuse triangle. Here's showing it stays the same.





well in theory it would still work,


----------



## Vice (Nov 1, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> MS-less living, sick Itachi>Muu>Oonoki
> 
> Genjutsu and kunai, GG.



Are you fucking out of your mind dude? Seriously?


----------



## Vice (Nov 1, 2013)

Also 5 meters for a 5 on 1 battle is absurd under any circumstance, Niku. Please just admit this bullshit and stop with these dumbass spite threads.


----------



## kaminogan (Nov 1, 2013)

^ go tell that to kishi then lol ,


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 1, 2013)

Vice said:


> Also 5 meters for a 5 on 1 battle is absurd under any circumstance, Niku. Please just admit this bullshit and stop with these dumbass spite threads.



There is nothing absurd about a 5m distance no matter how many people are participating; it's only absurd here because Itachi stomps Oonoki and five of them do it five times as hard. 



IchLiebe said:


> I'm just saying. Close range fighter and a long range fighter, you should put them at a fair distance which is medium



How is that fair when only one of them can fight at medium range (the long-range fighter)? Also, I disagree with Oonoki being a long-range fighter; he is most effective at close-range.



> When Itachi can close the distance before he uses it then no. As I said, Oonoki can really only do this because he can sweep jinton.



If Itachi can blitz Oonoki before he gets off any Jutsu then that's fair. Speedblitzing is not cheating.



> And where is this stated?



The third databook, obviously; that's where all the Jutsu ranges are listed.



> Oonoki has better jutsu. Oobito is better. Numbers mean nothing to a jinton user as the manga states. Oonoki stomps.



And yet the reality of this match is very different, as you admitted. So evidently Oonoki is not better and his Jutsu are not better; he can't get Jinton off and it wouldn't matter even if he could because he's outnumbered (and yes, that does make a difference when you are surrounded and can only fire an attack in one direction).



> He can't do it against 5 though. Deidara 5m from 5 Sasuke's is getting stomped in the ground.



No shit.



> Spite thread? Madara>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Itachi. They are completely different fighters. Madara can defend against jinton, Itachi can't.



Itachi can defend against Jinton, too- it's called dodging. He can also prevent Oonoki from using Jinton by attacking him first. And the Yata no Kagami may be able to block Jinton if you take the whole "elemental countering" thing at Kishi's word.



> We'll see.



We have already seen. 

Everyone in this thread who isn't trolling or just plain stupid has admitted that Oonoki gets curbed. I've made my point. There is nothing left to see.



> Manga=/=battledome. We don't want rape matches because of blitzes which is basically what you tried to cause here.



The point of this thread was to show that _it is a rape match_. That is exactly what I was going for. Changing the starting distance doesn't change anything because Itachi can still hit Oonoki before Oonoki can hit him. The second Oonoki tries to use Jinton, Itachi reads it with his Sharingan and dodges out of the path. Oonoki sweeps, Itachi dodges. It keeps up like that until Oonoki is either worn out or blitzed; if LOS is broken behind their Ninjutsu exchange, then that gives Itachi a split second to swap out with a clone and take the Tsuchikage from behind. He is the better shinobi, period.



> No he can't. Oonoki has v2 lightened Raikage reflexes as shown right here.



No, Oonoki reacted between the time Muu was struck and the time Madara was struck, and the latter happened after the Raikage came out of Shunshin.



IchLiebe said:


> He used his weight jutsu so they couldn't move so he beat them. It literally says this in that same fucking scan.



They could and did move; Oonoki only slowed them down so he could help the Raikage.



Vice said:


> Are you fucking out of your mind dude? Seriously?



Oonoki has no counter for Sharingan Genjutsu except not looking at the eyes, which leaves him vulnerable to physical attacks at that level (just like every other shinobi that can't somehow get around Genjutsu). Itachi can just blitz him while he's averting his gaze, throw a shit ton of weapons, clone feint, then fall out of the sky and stab him like some kinda Assassin's Creed shit.

Just look at what he did to Orochimaru; Itachi without MS is fucking dangerous, and it doesn't help that he's significantly faster than the Tsuchikage.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 1, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> He used his weight jutsu so they couldn't move so he beat them. It literally says this in that same fucking scan.



I thought he was referring to the ones around Raikage and no it doesn't mean he beat them. At most you can say that he immobilized them for a short period of time.


----------



## IchLiebe (Nov 1, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> There is nothing absurd about a 5m distance no matter how many people are participating; it's only absurd here because Itachi stomps Oonoki and five of them do it five times as hard.



Whatever. We obviously aren't going to agree although multiple people have said this distance is unfair.



> How is that fair when only one of them can fight at medium range (the long-range fighter)? Also, I disagree with Oonoki being a long-range fighter; he is most effective at close-range.



Again, we aren't going to agree. And Oonoki being most effective at close, LOLOLOLOLOLOL.



> If Itachi can blitz Oonoki before he gets off any Jutsu then that's fair. Speedblitzing is not cheating.



Well, he can't so...



> The third databook, obviously; that's where all the Jutsu ranges are listed.



Not one thing calls Totsuka long range. I checked the databook and it calls susanoo long range, but not totsuka.



> And yet the reality of this match is very different, as you admitted. So evidently Oonoki is not better and his Jutsu are not better; he can't get Jinton off and it wouldn't matter even if he could because he's outnumbered (and yes, that does make a difference when you are surrounded and can only fire an attack in one direction).



Oonoki is better. As Madara said, the reason he did so good is because experience. His jutsu's are better because it's hax and has no drawbacks unlike Itachi's. He can get jinton off and the one direction thing is cute. I've pointed out several times he can sweep jinton and the scan has been posted yet you act like he can't do it. Again, the scan.



> Itachi can defend against Jinton, too- it's called dodging. He can also prevent Oonoki from using Jinton by attacking him first. And the Yata no Kagami may be able to block Jinton if you take the whole "elemental countering" thing at Kishi's word.



Jinton is getting off. Oonoki has too good of reflexes. Dodging is useless against a sweeping jinton which is ideal in this situation. Yata no Kagami isn't blocking it. Bring me a fucking scan of it's feats. We use feats here and it hasn't blocked anything on Jinton's level. I can't believe people still use the overhyped statements of shit. Jinton destroys EVERYTHING. Nothing has shown to be able to block it by...wait for it...FEATS.



> We have already seen.
> 
> Everyone in this thread who isn't trolling or just plain stupid has admitted that Oonoki gets curbed. I've made my point. There is nothing left to see.



Calling people stupid is flaming. You should know better. You make a spite thread and call people stupid in it . I don't care but some people might report you.



> The point of this thread was to show that _it is a rape match_. That is exactly what I was going for. Changing the starting distance doesn't change anything because Itachi can still hit Oonoki before Oonoki can hit him. The second Oonoki tries to use Jinton, Itachi reads it with his Sharingan and dodges out of the path. Oonoki sweeps, Itachi dodges. It keeps up like that until Oonoki is either worn out or blitzed; if LOS is broken behind their Ninjutsu exchange, then that gives Itachi a split second to swap out with a clone and take the Tsuchikage from behind. He is the better shinobi, period.



And it's not. Itachi can't. Itachi isn't dodging jinton. 



> No, Oonoki reacted between the time Muu was struck and the time Madara was struck, and the latter happened after the Raikage came out of Shunshin.



He made him heavier when he struck Muu too. Otherwise we would've had this again. Muu went flying meaning he wasn't lightened anymore.



> They could and did move; Oonoki only slowed them down so he could help the Raikage.



No they couldn't and no they didn't. That's why he got off his speech, sat that like nothing was going on, and they all got together while the susanoo didn't move.



> Oonoki has no counter for Sharingan Genjutsu except not looking at the eyes, which leaves him vulnerable to physical attacks at that level (just like every other shinobi that can't somehow get around Genjutsu). Itachi can just blitz him while he's averting his gaze, throw a shit ton of weapons, clone feint, then fall out of the sky and stab him like some kinda Assassin's Creed shit.



Jinton destroys him before genjutsu. Or Oonoki breaks it, being a kage for like 50+ years.



> Just look at what he did to Orochimaru; Itachi without MS is fucking dangerous, and it doesn't help that he's significantly faster than the Tsuchikage.



Orochimaru was in a dying body, trying to take over Itachi. Circumstances mean quite a bit. Itachi isn't significantly faster than Oonoki if at all.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I thought he was referring to the ones around Raikage and no it doesn't mean he beat them. At most you can say that he immobilized them for a short period of time.



Nope, he brought the Raikage to him. And they never moved after that.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 1, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Nope, he brought the Raikage to him. And they never moved after that.



Onoki's weight alteration doesn't last forever.

And he needs to somehow keep in contact with his target to make it last longer. Otherwise he'd alter the islands weight and the others could have carried it, but instead Onoki had to hold it through the entire way.

Like I said, he termporarily immobilized the clones, we don't know how he did it, or for how long would it keep them immobilized.


----------



## IchLiebe (Nov 1, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Onoki's weight alteration doesn't last forever.
> 
> And he needs to somehow keep in contact with his target to make it last longer. Otherwise he'd alter the islands weight and the others could have carried it, but instead Onoki had to hold it through the entire way.
> 
> Like I said, he termporarily immobilized the clones, we don't know how he did it, or for how long would it keep them immobilized.



Don't make things up. It was never stated that he needed to hold to keep it going longer. He lightened his 2 bodyguards and they flew for a LONG time without him doing anything else. Oonoki held the turtle because it's his responsibility. What if the other two dropped the turtle? Is he going to tell the other kages,"I didn't feel like carrying it." 

He touched them. They would stay that way until he undid it. It changes their weight. It's like Minato's seal.


----------



## Garcher (Nov 1, 2013)

What can jinton do against 5 yata mirrors? Itachi wins. Without Tsunade Onoki can't make the giant cube anyway


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 1, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Don't make things up. It was never stated that he needed to hold to keep it going longer. He lightened his 2 bodyguards and they flew for a LONG time without him doing anything else. Oonoki held the turtle because it's his responsibility. What if the other two dropped the turtle? Is he going to tell the other kages,"I didn't feel like carrying it."
> 
> He touched them. They would stay that way until he undid it. It changes their weight. It's like Minato's seal.


I am not really sure on this.
I mean Onoki is an old dude with back problems. If he could just let go of the island the fat dude could have carried it alot more easily.


----------



## Jagger (Nov 1, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> What can jinton do against 5 yata mirrors? Itachi wins. Without Tsunade Onoki can't make the giant cube anyway


While I do believe Yata Mirror can bypass Yata's defenses, Onoki gets mutiled in this fight.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 1, 2013)

Jagger said:


> While I do believe *Yata Mirror can bypass Yata's defenses*, Onoki gets mutiled in this fight.



Only Yata Mirror can bypass Yata Mirror's defenses confirmed


----------



## IchLiebe (Nov 1, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not really sure on this.
> I mean Onoki is an old dude with back problems. If he could just let go of the island the fat dude could have carried it alot more easily.



The way the jutsu works, it shouldn't have a time limit. It's changing their weight. It's a doton and when has any doton ever had a time limit. They all change the effected area forever. If a doton wall is created, it stays till it's destroyed.


----------

